When a character like Max Dillon becomes black, I really don't care. I think Foxx is a good actor, so I look forward to it.
If Peter Parker became black, regardless of Miles Morales existence, I really wouldn't be happy. Same way if Blade became white, I'd be upset as well.
I wouldn't call it a villain thing, hell my first exposure to black Nick Fury was the infamous post-credit scene in Iron Man 1. It wasn't until later when I found out Nick was black in Ultimate.

Overall, it really depends on the character and if the move makes sense. Johnny Storm is completely fine as a black guy IMO.

I wouldn't be thrilled with them making Peter Parker black, because I think it would add a really problematic undertone to his story. His buzzard luck is supposed to be buzzard luck, possibly karmic punishment for his choices. If you make him black, its really, really easy for that to morph into "society is racist and oppressing me", which wouldn't do the character any favors. That said, I say Peter Parker for a reason. Having a *different* person become Spider-man, with their own details and story and themes, would work fine, and has.

As for why there are so few black females in CBMs? Its simple: because there are damn few in comics. Its two trends combined ( most characters being white, most characters being male ). Note that when canonically black female characters have been used, they've been, well, black and female. Its just that, to date, that basically means "Storm".

When a character like Max Dillon becomes black, I really don't care. I think Foxx is a good actor, so I look forward to it.
If Peter Parker became black, regardless of Miles Morales existence, I really wouldn't be happy. Same way if Blade became white, I'd be upset as well.
I wouldn't call it a villain thing, hell my first exposure to black Nick Fury was the infamous post-credit scene in Iron Man 1. It wasn't until later when I found out Nick was black in Ultimate.

Overall, it really depends on the character and if the move makes sense. Johnny Storm is completely fine as a black guy IMO.

I wouldn't be thrilled with them making Peter Parker black, because I think it would add a really problematic undertone to his story. His buzzard luck is supposed to be buzzard luck, possibly karmic punishment for his choices. If you make him black, its really, really easy for that to morph into "society is racist and oppressing me", which wouldn't do the character any favors. That said, I say Peter Parker for a reason. Having a *different* person become Spider-man, with their own details and story and themes, would work fine, and has.

As for why there are so few black females in CBMs? Its simple: because there are damn few in comics. Its two trends combined ( most characters being white, most characters being male ). Note that when canonically black female characters have been used, they've been, well, black and female. Its just that, to date, that basically means "Storm".

Miles Morales is Black Latino and there hasn't been any indication of fans seeing his problems being the results of societal racism. That's another bogus idea. Some of you seem to believe that all Black people are going to rise up in protest about every little thing that happens to Black characters in fiction. Most of our concerns stem from the atrocious lack of Black characters in superhero films. (I sometimes get pissed when fans gleefully suggest killing off the two Black heroes in the MCU has because killing the Black guy is a favorite Hollywood trope, but that's a different subject.)

I'm not talking about what black actors will play I'm not talking about black audience reaction

i'm black. i think that, like most people, if i'm going to get representation (as a hero or a villain), it's as a competent individual. if the only black villain in a spider-man movie were hypno-hustler, i might take issue with that. but a black villain that is treated with the same kind of respect they show the green goblin or magneto would be extremely hard to take issue with. no race wants to be the butt of the joke.

I wouldn't be thrilled with them making Peter Parker black, because I think it would add a really problematic undertone to his story. His buzzard luck is supposed to be buzzard luck, possibly karmic punishment for his choices. If you make him black, its really, really easy for that to morph into "society is racist and oppressing me", which wouldn't do the character any favors. That said, I say Peter Parker for a reason. Having a *different* person become Spider-man, with their own details and story and themes, would work fine, and has.

As for why there are so few black females in CBMs? Its simple: because there are damn few in comics. Its two trends combined ( most characters being white, most characters being male ). Note that when canonically black female characters have been used, they've been, well, black and female. Its just that, to date, that basically means "Storm".

Well, I think that comes down to how the character is written. I do think we have a fair number across all demographics who watch these movies and do relate to the character no matter what race they are. Now, take that same idea and simply cast a non-white actor in the role. The role can still pretty much be written in keeping with the origins of the character without resorting to racially charged writing. But I would also argue that there may be times when discussing race may be relevant to the character. Who knows?

I still say that with the rise in social media, with connectivity between fans of all ages, genders, races, etc, in order to keep things different and unique and give fans something new and different, they need to start balancing out the casting for these films. I love and adore Marvel (Studios) with all my heart and they've broken real ground for the latest era of comic book films and shared universes, but they are very much still stuck on white dudes at the center of the stories. They can change it up a little bit if they want to.

I hope they do.

__________________"Joss Whedon, Shane Black, Edgar Wright, James Gunn [and Ryan Coogler]… For as much flack as people give Marvel that's a pretty freaking great group of filmmakers. Kind of feel spoiled."

Miles Morales is Black Latino and there hasn't been any indication of fans seeing his problems being the results of societal racism. That's another bogus idea. Some of you seem to believe that all Black people are going to rise up in protest about every little thing that happens to Black characters in fiction. Most of our concerns stem from the atrocious lack of Black characters in superhero films. (I sometimes get pissed when fans gleefully suggest killing off the two Black heroes in the MCU has because killing the Black guy is a favorite Hollywood trope, but that's a different subject.)

Dudette, this! If they suggest killing or taking out Widow or Rhodey or etc. out of a movie, it does hit a nerve for me too. I get all, "I'm sorry, but do you see how male-y male male and white this movie would be if you killed off these characters?"

That may partially be why I don't get my dander up when people suggest killing Hawkeye or QS either LOL!

But still, why does it always have to be the black dude/woman?

Also, please don't get me started on the lack of Asians in these films, unless the movie is Wolverine and centered around Hugh Jackman in Japan. We have Ming Na and Chloe Bennett in AoS, but… eh. I want Asian representation onscreen! Maybe I'll get lucky with Doctor Strange and they'll hire Lucy Liu or Zhang Ziyi for Clea.

Ditto goes for Hispanic actors. I'd love to see Bardem or Oliver Issac in a Marvel production. I know Ant-Man's rumored to be getting Michael Pena, so good on that movie.

__________________"Joss Whedon, Shane Black, Edgar Wright, James Gunn [and Ryan Coogler]… For as much flack as people give Marvel that's a pretty freaking great group of filmmakers. Kind of feel spoiled."

Well, I think that comes down to how the character is written. I do think we have a fair number across all demographics who watch these movies and do relate to the character no matter what race they are. Now, take that same idea and simply cast a non-white actor in the role. The role can still pretty much be written in keeping with the origins of the character without resorting to racially charged writing. But I would also argue that there may be times when discussing race may be relevant to the character. Who knows?

I still say that with the rise in social media, with connectivity between fans of all ages, genders, races, etc, in order to keep things different and unique and give fans something new and different, they need to start balancing out the casting for these films. I love and adore Marvel (Studios) with all my heart and they've broken real ground for the latest era of comic book films and shared universes, but they are very much still stuck on white dudes at the center of the stories. They can change it up a little bit if they want to.

I hope they do.

Let's see ~ Marvel has used a "modern" version of Nick Fury at the expense of his entire back story, have kept War Machine black for no real reason other than that is the way he was in the comic, has changed a traditionally "Nordic" watchman's race just to be diverse, and has kept the Falcon black for what I am willing to be has nothing to do with the story they are telling, Gamora is played by a black actress and Groot is voiced by a "brother" ~ how much more "balanced" are they suppose to get?

I welcome the addition of the Black Panther not only because he is one of my favorite Kirby creations from the '60's but because I hope his arrival will silence much of this tiresome debate. I hope they do not change Man-Ape to white to be more "pc'...

Let's see ~ Marvel has used a "modern" version of Nick Fury at the expense of his entire back story, have kept War Machine black for no real reason other than that is the way he was in the comic, has changed a traditionally "Nordic" watchman's race just to be diverse, and has kept the Falcon black for what I am willing to be has nothing to do with the story they are telling, Gamora is played by a black actress and Groot is voiced by a "brother" ~ how much more "balanced" are they suppose to get?

I welcome the addition of the Black Panther not only because he is one of my favorite Kirby creations from the '60's but because I hope his arrival will silence much of this tiresome debate. I hope they do not change Man-Ape to white to be more "pc'...

1) Have a movie centered on a character of color or a woman or a woman of color instead of white dudes. Because from where I'm sitting, that's all we're getting for the foreseeable future.

2) Diversify their Avengers lineup.

All the characters you're telling me are supporting characters. I love them. I love what Marvel's done with them to diversify their line up. But supporting characters are not main characters around which a story is created and a movie is focused on. I love Marvel but for me, a woman of color, it's not representative of society as a whole.

For me, it's not being PC. It's being representational and realistic of the shifting demographics around us.

They could cast a Hispanic or Asian actor for Doctor Strange, or go ethnic with Carol's casting. An easy one would've been Jan, since she's Asian in Ultimates, but that role appears to be going to another white actress.

Look, I feel like when I post about this stuff that it comes across that I don't like white characters, which is not true. All I'm asking is for Marvel to stretch beyond white male lead roles and movies centered around them and do movies about women and racially diverse characters. Step really outside the box and go big and different with casting for roles that would've been traditionally cast with a white male. Why not?

__________________"Joss Whedon, Shane Black, Edgar Wright, James Gunn [and Ryan Coogler]… For as much flack as people give Marvel that's a pretty freaking great group of filmmakers. Kind of feel spoiled."

1) Have a movie centered on a character of color or a woman or a woman of color instead of white dudes. Because from where

2) Diversify their Avengers lineup.

All the characters you're telling me are supporting characters. I love them. I love what Marvel's done with them to diversify their line up. But supporting characters are not main characters around which a story is created and a movie is focused on. I love Marvel but for me, a woman of color, it's not representative of society as a whole.

For me, it's not being PC. It's being representational and realistic of the shifting demographics around us.

They could cast a Hispanic or Asian actor for Doctor Strange, or go ethnic with Carol's casting. An easy one would've been Jan, since she's Asian in Ultimates, but that role appears to be going to another white actress.

Look, I feel like when I post about this stuff that it comes across that I don't like white characters, which is not true. All I'm asking is for Marvel to stretch beyond white male lead roles and movies centered around them and do movies about women and racially diverse characters. Step really outside the box and go big and different with casting for roles that would've been traditionally cast with a white male. Why not?

1) Have a movie centered on a character of color or a woman or a woman of color instead of white dudes. Because from where I'm sitting, that's all we're getting for the foreseeable future.

2) Diversify their Avengers lineup.

All the characters you're telling me are supporting characters. I love them. I love what Marvel's done with them to diversify their line up. But supporting characters are not main characters around which a story is created and a movie is focused on. I love Marvel but for me, a woman of color, it's not representative of society as a whole.

For me, it's not being PC. It's being representational and realistic of the shifting demographics around us.

They could cast a Hispanic or Asian actor for Doctor Strange, or go ethnic with Carol's casting. An easy one would've been Jan, since she's Asian in Ultimates, but that role appears to be going to another white actress.

Look, I feel like when I post about this stuff that it comes across that I don't like white characters, which is not true. All I'm asking is for Marvel to stretch beyond white male lead roles and movies centered around them and do movies about women and racially diverse characters. Step really outside the box and go big and different with casting for roles that would've been traditionally cast with a white male. Why not?

Wow, where to start...

The current Marvel cinema craze was started by BLADE, a character of color, and we got two sequels so that's not too bad. This amounts to about 10% of the Marvel movies produced to date - which happens to be close to the percentage of blacks in the US population, and since these are produced by a US studio that seems pretty equitable.

Did you like the CATWOMAN movie - that stared a woman of color - did that make the movie any better?

The female lead in the first three X-Men movies was Storm and the female lead in GUARDIANS is also a woman of color [painted another color!] so doesn't that count for anything? In fact two of the five characters in GoG are people of color, that's 40% - so that's pretty good, right?

Sure these movies may not be representative of society as a whole - no one ever claimed they were meant to be. What they should be are as faithful representations of the characters as created. Why not?

I do look forward to a Black Panther movie - I just hope they can capture the spirit of the original Kirby/Lee creation.

What female Marvel characters do you feel are popular enough to carry a feature film?

The current Marvel cinema craze was started by BLADE, a character of color, and we got two sequels so that's not too bad. This amounts to about 10% of the Marvel movies produced to date - which happens to be close to the percentage of blacks in the US population, and since these are produced by a US studio that seems pretty equitable.

Did you like the CATWOMAN movie - that stared a woman of color - did that make the movie any better?

The female lead in the first three X-Men movies was Storm and the female lead in GUARDIANS is also a woman of color [painted another color!] so doesn't that count for anything? In fact two of the five characters in GoG are people of color, that's 40% - so that's pretty good, right?

Sure these movies may not be representative of society as a whole - no one ever claimed they were meant to be. What they should be are as faithful representations of the characters as created. Why not?

I do look forward to a Black Panther movie - I just hope they can capture the spirit of the original Kirby/Lee creation.

What female Marvel characters do you feel are popular enough to carry a feature film?

Representation is not a metric. That's PCism. The question the little kid asks themselves is: are people like me important in this universe? Where do I fit in? The answer in the MCU so far is: your people are supporting characters for the white male heroes.

To that end, Black Panther, if he were a founding member of the Avengers with a solo movie would much better represent black people than if 10 percent or even 50 percent of the supporting characters were black. Minorities and women have always been allowed to be not-that-important. They've always been allowed to be 40% of the people who are not the focus, or are just there for eye candy. It's pretty good, in comparison to what, I dunno, animals and robots get, but at some point, the fact that white males are allowed be nearly 100% of the important people, make nearly 100% of the important decisions and receive the vast, vast majority of the character development, you start to suspect that someone thinks your people or gender constantly being a supporting character is accurate representation. That's sad, almost insulting. These unimportant people, they are a fair representation of you and what you contribute to the superhero world.

And that's simply not true.

The issue, is, as I pointed out earlier, faithful representations of the characters involves adapting characters who were conceived in a different time. Fashions were different. What races and genders were allowed to do what was different. So in some ways, the founding Avengers being white in the comics is a lot like them wearing bellbottoms in the comics, it's only because of the racism of the time they were conceived in. If we want to update their clothes, and update their backstories to modern technology and social structures, then it's natural to update the racial makeup of the team as opposed to faithfully adapt something that is a function of racism and prejudice (ignorance), just like wouldn't faithfully adapt them getting their powers from radiation (also ignorance). That's why not.

And even if you for whatever cockamaimy reason did a metric, then you should acknowledge that 40% of the people paying the ticket stubs are minorities and 40% of the people paying the ticket stubs are women. That means 40% of the films from the MCU should star a woman and/or a minority. If they're going for metrics.

EDIT: The reality is that they're not. They're going for money. And while I may go for a gender or minority-led action movie, there are a lot of people who see such characters as unimportant/uninteresting/not representative of them, who may not go as quickly as if it were someone who looked like them. Also, because white males get to star so often, then then also have the most drawing power and can bring in the most money that way. It all snowballs into having a white male lead be a safe bet, like doing a sequel, in some ways, a racial successor to all the successful white male led movies of the past (who also were white male dominated because of racism). Everyone's used to it, no one bats an eye, no one gives a white male led movie high expectations, no one calls it PCism, even though they were looking only for white males, it's normal, so it's always okay. If they put blacks and women as not-that-importants, as society has always done, no one bats an eye, it's normal. People even want credit: "See, we have 3 black characters that aren't as important as the white males instead of just two! Aren't you satisfied now?"

So when someone says 'That's not quite right' and the reply is 'but we're just trying to keep the status quo' then it's like, at what point do you say the status quo needs improving? Marvel is in a position to change the status quo, with its great stable of black and women characters with great stories that deserve a great movie treatment, deserve a central position in the Avengers, and just rock out in general. They simply haven't chosen to go that route. From their perspective, GotG is a safer bet than a minority or women led movie. I guess my question to all you guys is: are they right? Are audiences quicker to empathize with a white man who has a raccoon traveling companion than woman who has a female traveling companion?

EDIT EDIT: The problem with Fox and Sony is that they really only have one property each. Spider-Man and Wolverine The X-Men. They can't really turn Wolverine or Spider-Man black without making their race the headline everywhere (not just on SHH!), so... yeah A no go. The James Bond franchise can't do a solo woman movie (though they almost tried once, they couldn't do it) because the entire franchise is about this one really white guy.

But the MCU? If anyone has the ability to bring some equal representation to the comic book movie franchise game, it's these guys. It's a shame they're not driven to though. So they become a very prominent voice in the "It's very important that women and minorities come see our movies, or they'll flop, but the focus of the movies is always going to be white males" crowd, to me.

The current Marvel cinema craze was started by BLADE, a character of color, and we got two sequels so that's not too bad. This amounts to about 10% of the Marvel movies produced to date - which happens to be close to the percentage of blacks in the US population, and since these are produced by a US studio that seems pretty equitable.

Right… Blade was in the 1990's, and it was phenomenal. Unfortunately the sequels didn't do the first one justice. And you're giving me Blade as an example of a POC led movie… which does leave approx. 90% of the current Marvel movies still led by a white dude, and there have been no announcements regarding BP. Now, I know there's the Luke Cage show coming up and I'm thrilled with that; I want to hear more casting and developments about that soon.

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Did you like the CATWOMAN movie - that stared a woman of color - did that make the movie any better?

The female lead in the first three X-Men movies was Storm and the female lead in GUARDIANS is also a woman of color [painted another color!] so doesn't that count for anything? In fact two of the five characters in GoG are people of color, that's 40% - so that's pretty good, right?

I feel like this a really fallible argument re. Catwoman. Catwoman didn't fail because she was black, if that's what you're implying. Catwoman's race had nothing to do with that. If Catwoman had a better script, better production values, better… everything, it would have been far more successful. I tried to watch it; couldn't get past the awful fight scenes.

The X-Men series unfortunately are over at Fox, but I bet you if Marvel had them at their studio, we'd likely be seeing a strong push for a Storm/Rogue and/or Jean Grey as leads.

To be honest, many of the female and POC characters feel, at times, like background and superfluous. Rogue and Jean Grey as major supporting character in the first two X-Men movies was fine. However, those movies basically push Professor Xavier, Magneto and Wolverine as the main characters. Even Rogue's story in the first X-men movie was more focused on Wolverine and Magneto.

Quote:

Sure these movies may not be representative of society as a whole - no one ever claimed they were meant to be. What they should be are as faithful representations of the characters as created. Why not?

I do look forward to a Black Panther movie - I just hope they can capture the spirit of the original Kirby/Lee creation.

What female Marvel characters do you feel are popular enough to carry a feature film?

But like I said, they can still be written faithfully but cast by actors or actresses that are not only talented but representational of our changing demographics.

Honestly, if you can make a Hellboy, a Constantine movie, any female Marvel characters could take the lead so long as the investment and script and production teams are there. I'd love to see a Black Widow movie. I'm on board for a Captain Marvel movie as well, with a mostly female cast (Monica Rambeau, Warbird, maybe bring in Bobbi Morse…) She-Hulk could be great fun as well. Elecktra could be rebooted again, but I imagine she'll be on the Daredevil tv show.

There is the other problem that Marvel's biggest female characters are over at Fox Studios and so they can't do anything with them. Which is why they are bolstering their female characters in their movies by writing and developing them as more than just love interests, and I love Marvel for doing that.

__________________"Joss Whedon, Shane Black, Edgar Wright, James Gunn [and Ryan Coogler]… For as much flack as people give Marvel that's a pretty freaking great group of filmmakers. Kind of feel spoiled."

The X-Men series unfortunately are over at Fox, but I bet you if Marvel had them at their studio, we'd likely be seeing a strong push for a Storm/Rogue and/or Jean Grey as leads.

To be honest, many of the female and POC characters feel, at times, like background and superfluous. Rogue and Jean Grey as major supporting character in the first two X-Men movies was fine. However, those movies basically push Professor Xavier, Magneto and Wolverine as the main characters. Even Rogue's story in the first X-men movie was more focused on Wolverine and Magneto.

Honestly, if you can make a Hellboy, a Constantine movie, any female Marvel characters could take the lead so long as the investment and script and production teams are there. I'd love to see a Black Widow movie. I'm on board for a Captain Marvel movie as well, with a mostly female cast (Monica Rambeau, Warbird, maybe bring in Bobbi Morse…) She-Hulk could be great fun as well. Elecktra could be rebooted again, but I imagine she'll be on the Daredevil tv show.

Okay, this goes back to an issue that the comcis have too: even in the comics the women are supporting characters. Marvel's best female characters are part of teams, ensemble at best, not leads, except for a miniseries or maaaaybe two.

But then that does make me think of an X-Men show in which Jean Grey is the lead character, Buffy-style and that makes SOOOOO much sense. Her perspective on the X-Men is basically the correct one. Also, it gives you the chance to kill off the lead of your show and bring her back, which would be quite daring.

I feel like this a really fallible argument re. Catwoman. Catwoman didn't fail because she was black, if that's what you're implying. Catwoman's race had nothing to do with that. If Catwoman had a better script, better production values, better… everything, it would have been far more successful. I tried to watch it; couldn't get past the awful fight scenes.

Not implying that at all - that movie would have been crap no matter who was cast in the part - but it was not improved in any way by changing what had traditionally been a white character to black [I know one of the '60's TV versions was black - very progressive for the time...].

How you can find anything "racist" in Jewish comics creators producing characters that appealed to their purchasing demographics of the time is beyond me.

The only reason I "did a metric" was to help show things are not as bad as some want to make them out to be...maybe its a half full vs. a half empty sort of thing...

But hey, GUARDIANS is coming out in a few months and three of the five are "people of color" [I checked and Drax is half Filipino] so I guess that will make every one happy.

...and isn't over 50% of the population female...

Going backwards:

Generally 40% of the comic book movie audience is female. I you're representing the audience, that's what you'd go for.

The Tl;dr of my post is that having unimportant POC is not an improvement, that's the way society has always been.

Again tl'dr of my post: showing that 30-70% of the supporting cast is POC only highlights the fact that 100% of the starring cast is white males.

Remember, I said a result of racism. The fact that minorities did not have money for comic books and thus weren't in the demographics was definitely a result of racism. And if appealing to the demographics of the time is a worthy goal, then MCU isn't doing that.

I get excited about adapting characters, and making them relevant to modern society. Don't you get excited about comic book characters? But I'll keep it short so that you can pick out the points without feeling like you got hit with a wall of text.

But like I said, they can still be written faithfully but cast by actors or actresses that are not only talented but representational of our changing demographics.

Honestly, if you can make a Hellboy, a Constantine movie, any female Marvel characters could take the lead so long as the investment and script and production teams are there. I'd love to see a Black Widow movie. I'm on board for a Captain Marvel movie as well, with a mostly female cast (Monica Rambeau, Warbird, maybe bring in Bobbi Morse…) She-Hulk could be great fun as well. Elecktra could be rebooted again, but I imagine she'll be on the Daredevil tv show.

I think a Black Widow movie may happen, and a She-Hulk could as well. Naturally Marvel had to start with their strongest, most marketable characters, but these movie are opening the doors for more diverse characters, just like the comics did. Again, look at GUARDIANS.

I think a Black Widow movie may happen, and a She-Hulk could as well. Naturally Marvel had to start with their strongest, most marketable characters, but these movie are opening the doors for more diverse characters, just like the comics did. Again, look at GUARDIANS.

Guardians and Dr. Strange are great examples of Marvel deciding to diversify with white male leads. Here's a white male in space, here's a white male with a black sidekick, here's a white male with a female sidekick, here's a white male who's an alien/god/thing, here's a white male who turns green.