The Violence Policy Center is in possession of "facts". They have a list of every murder committed by a concealed weapons permit holder since 2007. The list is so compelling as evidence that the organization did not need to compare the number of listees to total concealed weapons permit holders, nor did they need to compare the murders committed by permit holders to murders committed by the general adult public. The list is so well-researched that it even includes people who did not hold a concealed weapons permit at all.

TNel:Pathman: you think that's what happened? my take is that he was already fuming mad, the two of them were fighting and then the thrown popcorn put him over the edge.

blind rage kind of precludes cold-blooded, doesn't it?

I know compuction or clemency are big words so let's break them down. Compuction:guilt, clemency:mercy; That old man had no consideration, guilt, or mercy when he killed that guy. Yeah I'm sure he was pissed but a pissed off person doesn't pull out a gun and kill someone. If you are that pissed that you walk out to do whatever and then come back and sit right behind the person that first pissed you off. Then that issue is with you. He could have moved seats but choose not to.

Nabb1:Dimensio: Nabb1: Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.

The Violence Policy Center is in possession of "facts". They have a list of every murder committed by a concealed weapons permit holder since 2007. The list is so compelling as evidence that the organization did not need to compare the number of listees to total concealed weapons permit holders, nor did they need to compare the murders committed by permit holders to murders committed by the general adult public. The list is so well-researched that it even includes people who did not hold a concealed weapons permit at all.

Latinwolf:You mean like pointing out the racism (all the blacks will riot) or the double standards of evidence?

What?

I mean, there were definitely racists in those threads, black and white. As for double standards, I have no idea what you're talking about. All of the witness testimony (including the star defense witness), the physical evidence, etc all supported Zimmerman's version of events. There literally was not one piece of evidence suggesting unlawful killing.

But please continue if you feel you must. I'm well versed in this topic.

Super_pope:Dimensio: As is evident by the fact that no criminal charges have been brought against the former police chief.

The pervasive popular myth emboldens people too stupid to understand it (see: This guy). It doesn't matter what's really happening, they shoot people thinking they've got carte blanche and then find out later (when the news cycle has moved on) that it doesn't work that way for reasons too subtle to fit into a soundbite.

I concur. Frantic firearm restriction advocates who claim, falsely, that self-defense statutes legalize killing without reasoned justification, and media "journalists" who allow the claim to remain unchallenged, may in fact result in people using deadly force when not justified due to their belief in those false reports.

/I must also question whether Florida's concealed weapons permit training requirements adequately instruct students regarding state law as it relates to justified uses of deadly force.//Kentucky training requirements are quite thorough in that regard.///Though any such deficiency would hardly be relevant to retired police, who are permitted to carry in public without any special training per federal law.

The Violence Policy Center is in possession of "facts". They have a list of every murder committed by a concealed weapons permit holder since 2007. The list is so compelling as evidence that the organization did not need to compare the number of listees to total concealed weapons permit holders, nor did they need to compare the murders committed by permit holders to murders committed by the general adult public. The list is so well-researched that it even includes people who did not hold a concealed weapons permit at all.

Oh you trying for your second hit of the day.

I don't ever listen to anything Dimensio says, but I'm actually interested in those numbers, if they are out there. I remember debunking the "police officers murder more people than non police officers," but I'd like to take a crack at the CCW figures too.

I hate to pick nits, but there really is no such thing as a "Stand Your Ground Defense." The attorney in this case would be claiming self defense as a justification and what is commonly referred to as the Stand Your Ground Law would only accomplish two things. First, it would remove the necessity that he needed to retreat before defending himself (which would be reinstated if it were found he were the initial aggressor), and secondly it provides him an opportunity to have the case dismissed by a judge pre-trial should the judge rule that he did act in self defense.

justtray:Latinwolf: Dimensio: Fark It: Who needs facts when you have feelings?

The Violence Policy Center is in possession of "facts". They have a list of every murder committed by a concealed weapons permit holder since 2007. The list is so compelling as evidence that the organization did not need to compare the number of listees to total concealed weapons permit holders, nor did they need to compare the murders committed by permit holders to murders committed by the general adult public. The list is so well-researched that it even includes people who did not hold a concealed weapons permit at all.

Oh you trying for your second hit of the day.

I don't ever listen to anything Dimensio says, but I'm actually interested in those numbers, if they are out there. I remember debunking the "police officers murder more people than non police officers," but I'd like to take a crack at the CCW figures too.

Mr.BobDobalita:Looks like 13 killings (charges for manslaughter, murder, etc...) with 5 of those being dismissed or found not guilty. That leaves 8 people convicted of homicide or having pending charges for homicide that had a CPL.... out of almost 426k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not translate to a murder rate of approximately 2 out of 100k population?

Refer to bolded part for your correction. You've written off people as guilty before they have been proven as such. It's not uncommon for somebody who defends himself to be charged with homicide and then acquitted.

I mean, those 8 people might turn out to all be guilty, but your methodology is flawed.

d23:Bermuda59: It's the Florida way, you pull out popcorn and they pull out a gun

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 433x280]

Popcorn to a gunfight.

Only time I morphed into a movie theater tough guy was during an Indy movie. Temple of Doom in 1989, which makes me 18 at the time. First run, it was packed. 3 similarly-aged boys behind me, assholes the lot of them. Troublemakers. I was in the row in front, along with my sister. These 3 pricks spent half the movie giving the plot away by talking and saying what was going to happen next. Eventually, when Indy was in the library in Venice and was looking for a way into the catacombs, they said something about the Xs placed in the floor.

I farkin' lost it. Turned around and screamed at them to 'shut up', which they did. Somewhat embarassing, as everyone was now looking at me. It did shut them up, though.

TNel:Pathman: you think that's what happened? my take is that he was already fuming mad, the two of them were fighting and then the thrown popcorn put him over the edge.

blind rage kind of precludes cold-blooded, doesn't it?

I know compuction or clemency are big words so let's break them down. Compuction:guilt, clemency:mercy; That old man had no consideration, guilt, or mercy when he killed that guy. Yeah I'm sure he was pissed but a pissed off person doesn't pull out a gun and kill someone. If you are that pissed that you walk out to do whatever and then come back and sit right behind the person that first pissed you off. Then that issue is with you. He could have moved seats but choose not to.

yikes, no need to be nasty. I wasn't nasty to you. I understood what you wrote, that's why I argued with it. Neither one of us was there so who knows. Yeah, maybe his heart rate never even changed and he calmly walked out, got his gun, sat back down and then shot the guy. Me, I picture him all pissed off and mumbling to himself and playing his part in escalating the situation to the point that when the guy lashed out he completely lost his cool and shot him.

Of course he could have moved seats but chose not to...what does that have to do with anything? Of course the issue is with him, I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just disagreeing that "cold-blooded" was the right term. I see what you mean, as i did when i first read it. I also see that it doesn't matter and regret engaging.

As I am certain that you will be able to demonstrate by showing that concealed weapons permit holders in "shall issue" states commit violent crime at a rate higher than that of the general populace.

That's a wonderful research question. And since "shall issue" started to become common after Congress blocked research into firearm violence, we need to study it.

I was unaware of Congressional action that prohibited any examination of crime statistics of concealed weapons permit holders and comparison of those statistics to statistics for adults in general. Have you a reference?

But why are you limiting your comparison to a small subset of concealed carriers?Is is because real research shows that when a higher percentage of the population is armed, there are higher rates of firearm homicide and suicide?

I am "limiting" the comparison to concealed weapons permit holders because I am addressing your complaint that "shall issue" based concealed weapons systems are "stupid", and so including more than just concealed weapons permit holders in the comparison group would create a false comparison.

TNel:Pathman: you think that's what happened? my take is that he was already fuming mad, the two of them were fighting and then the thrown popcorn put him over the edge.

blind rage kind of precludes cold-blooded, doesn't it?

I know compuction or clemency are big words so let's break them down. Compuction:guilt, clemency:mercy; That old man had no consideration, guilt, or mercy when he killed that guy. Yeah I'm sure he was pissed but a pissed off person doesn't pull out a gun and kill someone. If you are that pissed that you walk out to do whatever and then come back and sit right behind the person that first pissed you off. Then that issue is with you. He could have moved seats but choose not to.

serial_crusher:Mr.BobDobalita: Looks like 13 killings (charges for manslaughter, murder, etc...) with 5 of those being dismissed or found not guilty. That leaves 8 people convicted of homicide or having pending charges for homicide that had a CPL.... out of almost 426k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not translate to a murder rate of approximately 2 out of 100k population?

Refer to bolded part for your correction. You've written off people as guilty before they have been proven as such. It's not uncommon for somebody who defends himself to be charged with homicide and then acquitted.

I mean, those 8 people might turn out to all be guilty, but your methodology is flawed.

You are right, and I knew that, but I decided to include them because it would only make the numbers for my argument LOWER if they were acquitted. I was being conservative with the figures with the understanding that they could actually be even MORE in my favor after the conclusion of legal proceedings.

Nutsac_Jim:redmid17: Do they cherish the people still coming into the theater and walking down aisles while saying "Excuse me" to every person they pass? I know people who like to watch the previews. I very seriously doubt anyone in their right mind "cherishes" them. It's like being mad at someone who's texting or talking to someone on a parked plane because one cherishes flying.

Yes, some people really like to watch the previews.Other people hate them with a passion.

The theater says to turn off your cell phone. They do not put a guard at the door, so apparently, going to urinate and then returning and blocking someones view for 1.5 seconds is acceptable.

The theater asks you to turn your cell phone off after the previews, at least in most of the ones I've been to since they started showing those messages (United Artist, Regal, AMC). Unless everything is completely silent and dark in a theater during the previews( and never is with people still finding seats and talking), biatching about someone texting makes as much sense as the volume being too deafening during the movie.

walktoanarcade:Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: walktoanarcade: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: walktoanarcade: It's almost as if the alarmists concerning Florida's "stand your ground" law were 100% correct.

Correct about what? The guy was arrested for, charged with, and will likely be convicted of murder. What were the alarmists correct about? Murderers being convicted of murder and sent to prison for murder?

The law emboldened him to act in the way he did.

Citation? Did he actually say that, or are you just assuming?

FTFA: "Escobar may figure that between his client's résumé and the Stand Your Ground statue, he has a chance to mount a successful Popcorn Defense. "

That's where I got that idea. I may be wrong, but it is Florida and his attorney looks like he may use such a defense. Remember, it's the shooter's lawyer being told by his client to possibly use that defense.

Unless the lawyer is a bad one and making these statements without permission on the fly..

As an attorney, Mr. Escobar is required to present a defense for his client. That he cites a law as a part of his defense is not evidence that the law justified his client's actions.

Do you suggest repealing all laws justifying the use of deadly force, and thus prohibiting the use of deadly force at any time, regardless of circumstance, merely because an individual who commits homicide may attempt to reference those laws as part of their defense regardless of circumstance or applicability?

justtray:justtray: Latinwolf: Dimensio: Fark It: Who needs facts when you have feelings?

The Violence Policy Center is in possession of "facts". They have a list of every murder committed by a concealed weapons permit holder since 2007. The list is so compelling as evidence that the organization did not need to compare the number of listees to total concealed weapons permit holders, nor did they need to compare the murders committed by permit holders to murders committed by the general adult public. The list is so well-researched that it even includes people who did not hold a concealed weapons permit at all.

Oh you trying for your second hit of the day.

I don't ever listen to anything Dimensio says, but I'm actually interested in those numbers, if they are out there. I remember debunking the "police officers murder more people than non police officers," but I'd like to take a crack at the CCW figures too.

I alone am best:justtray: CynicalLA: Trollomite: Any responsible gun owner defending this guy will sound just as dumb as the ghetto trash defending their homie who got shot by a business/homeowner during a robbery

Gun nuts will defend anything if there is a chance it might make them look bad. Look at this thread. So many pieces of shiat making excuses for a murderer.

It is pretty disugsting. I actually have to leave this thread. I really didn't think the gun nuts would so defensively argue for an open and shut murderer just because there's some chance the fallout would impact them personally.

There really is no limit to their selfishness. They'll defend murder if it prevents the the most minor of advancement for gun control. Just wow.

I must of missed something. Who says this guy should not be convicted of murder?

Be aware that CynicalLA suffers from an irrational hatred of all firearm owners. He is therefore unable to differentiate his own paranoid delusions from actual firearm owners.

Mr.BobDobalita:serial_crusher: Mr.BobDobalita: Looks like 13 killings (charges for manslaughter, murder, etc...) with 5 of those being dismissed or found not guilty. That leaves 8 people convicted of homicide or having pending charges for homicide that had a CPL.... out of almost 426k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not translate to a murder rate of approximately 2 out of 100k population?

Refer to bolded part for your correction. You've written off people as guilty before they have been proven as such. It's not uncommon for somebody who defends himself to be charged with homicide and then acquitted.

I mean, those 8 people might turn out to all be guilty, but your methodology is flawed.

You are right, and I knew that, but I decided to include them because it would only make the numbers for my argument LOWER if they were acquitted. I was being conservative with the figures with the understanding that they could actually be even MORE in my favor after the conclusion of legal proceedings.

I think I was more than fair with my analysis... no?

Heh, that'll teach me not to read the whole post. Usually I see the wall of facts and assume it's a librul.

farking_texan:Jim from Saint Paul:Calling someone a douche nozzle is generally considered to be a stament of dislike. You did it in a manner that was quite emphatic. Indeed on the Welcome to Fark. I am enjoying the internet fighting today.

You're still having problems with reading comprehension, I see. The douchenozzle comment was in reference to the idiotic popcorn throwing. You're right, I do not like it when people escalate a verbal disagreement into a physicial confrontation. Throwing popcorn at another adult during the course of a disagreement makes you a douchenozzle.

Jim from Saint Paul:farking_texan: Jim from Saint Paul: Is there not a time and place to complain about people you don;t like? I mean does it have to be in a thread where someone was murdered doing what you don;t like?

I never said anything about what I do or do not like, I pointed out behavior that is generally considered to be impolite and inconsiderate. I did it in a manner that was not particularly empathetic. Welcome to FARK.

Hmmm....

"But Jim, I said "Throwing popcorn at another adult during the course of a disagreement makes you a douchenozzle" too!

That is an opinion, based off your dislike of someone who would do it.

I am not trying to invalidate your opinion. I am suggesting that just because something is your opinion, doesn;t make it fact.

Not that this is what we were originally talking about, but whatever... lol

jst3p:patrick767: The Larch: Latinwolf: A few people have already claimed he was at fault for daring to text during movie reviews.

He texted in a movie theater, then he laughed at an old man who asked him to stop, and then he threw popcorn at the old man and laughed at him some more when the manager failed to do anything about it.

I'm not saying that he deserved to die, but it's easy to see why someone would come to that conclusion.

Really? It's easy to see why someone would conclude that a person should be killed for being an annoying douche in a movie theater?

No, no it is not. "Because he annoyed me" is not a strong defense for murder.

If it were the politics tab would be a barren wasteland.

You mean that it would be no different, except that it would be barren?

justtray:Latinwolf: You mean like all those GZ supporters who claimed that Martin was up to no good that night, ready to do a burglary?

I think he meant the people that said things like, "GZ stalked and murdered that kid," despite only evidence to the contrary.

Since GZ didn't have to prove anything, it really didn't matter at all what Martin's motives were or what he was doing. Only the actions that he took that led to his lawful death.

But if I remember your rage from those threads, I'm pretty sure you don't want to dig this back up right now. It's not a winning proposition for you.

You mean Zimzam wasnt told by 911 dispatchers not to follow him and to stay in his car and wait for police? I forgot that didnt happen. If he would have listen to them then Martin would have had to deal with the police instead of being shot because Zimzam couldnt beat up a 17 year old kid.

serial_crusher:Mr.BobDobalita: serial_crusher: Mr.BobDobalita: Looks like 13 killings (charges for manslaughter, murder, etc...) with 5 of those being dismissed or found not guilty. That leaves 8 people convicted of homicide or having pending charges for homicide that had a CPL.... out of almost 426k.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not translate to a murder rate of approximately 2 out of 100k population?

Refer to bolded part for your correction. You've written off people as guilty before they have been proven as such. It's not uncommon for somebody who defends himself to be charged with homicide and then acquitted.

I mean, those 8 people might turn out to all be guilty, but your methodology is flawed.

You are right, and I knew that, but I decided to include them because it would only make the numbers for my argument LOWER if they were acquitted. I was being conservative with the figures with the understanding that they could actually be even MORE in my favor after the conclusion of legal proceedings.

I think I was more than fair with my analysis... no?

Heh, that'll teach me not to read the whole post. Usually I see the wall of facts and assume it's a librul.

Farker Soze:Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Mr.BobDobalita: FACT: CPL HOLDERS ARE SOME OF THE MOST LAW ABIDING PEOPLE. PERIOD.

Just like this guy.

I thought he didn't need one, being a retired cop and permitted by federal law to carry just about everywhere, whether a business likes it or not. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Violence Policy Center includes individuals with a "pistol purchase permit" and permits allowing the carrying of firearm only when on duty as a security guard. I believe that this incident will qualify for their list.

TNel:Pangea: TNel: Cold blooded killing is ok if they text and throw popcorn when you start making a scene?

I don't think you know what cold blooded means. Reacting as a result of direct provocation is by definition, not in cold-blood.

"done or acting without consideration, compunction, or clemency "

"showing no sympathy or mercy"

Guy didn't even think what he did was wrong. This wasn't an accident, this wasn't a fight that it was a life or death situation. The guy pulled out his gun and shot the guy because popcorn was thrown at him.

Catching your wife in bed with another man is also not a fight, or a life and death situation.

When the enraged husband kills the lover, no one refers to that as cold-blooded murder.

scroufus:justtray: Latinwolf: You mean like all those GZ supporters who claimed that Martin was up to no good that night, ready to do a burglary?

I think he meant the people that said things like, "GZ stalked and murdered that kid," despite only evidence to the contrary.

Since GZ didn't have to prove anything, it really didn't matter at all what Martin's motives were or what he was doing. Only the actions that he took that led to his lawful death.

But if I remember your rage from those threads, I'm pretty sure you don't want to dig this back up right now. It's not a winning proposition for you.

You mean Zimzam wasnt told by 911 dispatchers not to follow him and to stay in his car and wait for police? I forgot that didnt happen. If he would have listen to them then Martin would have had to deal with the police instead of being shot because Zimzam couldnt beat up a 17 year old kid.

You can take that stance... but by the EXACT same token, there is a PROVEN ~4 minute gap of time between when GZ loses sight of TM and when the attack began. Perhaps GZ shouldn't have exited his vehicle, but TM sure as hell should have BEEN AT HOME. He had ~4 minutes to cover 150 yds which should have taken him 20 seconds. If GZ was up to no good by being out of the vehicle, TM was up to no good by hiding and waiting for GZ.

Pangea:TNel: Pangea: TNel: Cold blooded killing is ok if they text and throw popcorn when you start making a scene?

I don't think you know what cold blooded means. Reacting as a result of direct provocation is by definition, not in cold-blood.

"done or acting without consideration, compunction, or clemency "

"showing no sympathy or mercy"

Guy didn't even think what he did was wrong. This wasn't an accident, this wasn't a fight that it was a life or death situation. The guy pulled out his gun and shot the guy because popcorn was thrown at him.

Catching your wife in bed with another man is also not a fight, or a life and death situation.

When the enraged husband kills the lover, no one refers to that as cold-blooded murder.

I dont see how that relates to the popcorn shooter. Was the younger guy pluggin the old dudes wife? No. Thats some fox news/ MSNBC correlation there.