Share this post

Link to post

Best not to assume people with high leadership callings are infallible. Humans will disappoint and can rock your testimony otherwise. I’m sad when folks screw up but it doesn’t affect my testimony because I don’t expect much.

This is being likened to a sexual predator being called as a Bishop, a position that puts him in a room with teenage girls and requires he ask them about chastity. To imply that revelation was involved means we must believe that God wanted such a person in that position.

If we must now argue that sometimes God wants sexual predators (and by at least one account, adulterers) to be Bishops, and that that's part of his eternal plan, then I think we can all just turn the lights off and go find another church to join (preferably one with a shorter name). Because that's game over for any claim the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has for anything having to do with God.

This is being likened to a sexual predator being called as a Bishop, a position that puts him in a room with teenage girls and requires he ask them about chastity. To imply that revelation was involved means we must believe that God wanted such a person in that position.

If we must now argue that sometimes God wants sexual predators (and by at least one account, adulterers) to be Bishops, and that that's part of his eternal plan, then I think we can all just turn the lights off and go find another church to join (preferably one with a shorter name). Because that's game over for any claim the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has for anything having to do with God.

Well stated!! I don’t see the example of Judas being a very comparable one to knowingly calling a sexual predator to be a Bishop. (Or even unknowingly calling one.)

I think it’s better to just acknowledge that all callings are not always inspired callings. Good men make mistakes and misjudge other’s character sometimes. Predators can be expert at hiding who they are and their behaviors.

That makes much more sense than believing it was done on purpose (a predator called as Bishop) because it was part of God’s plan as in the role that Judas played.

Share this post

Link to post

I think we can broadened it out to high profile jobs being given to sexual predators, how many times do you hear in the news about some guy getting busted for some thing? that one guy hung himself last week and he's nuts! I think sometimes people get these jobs, callings etc. and as it's said the bigger they are the harder they fall

Callings are supposed to be inspired. But I think you are correct. Practically speaking, sometimes they are not.

Quote

Best not to assume people with high leadership callings are infallible. Humans will disappoint and can rock your testimony otherwise. I’m sad when folks screw up but it doesn’t affect my testimony because I don’t expect much.

I expect much of our leaders, but I haven't tied my testimony to any person except the Savior. At least, I hope I haven't.

"O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm." (2 Nephi 4:34).

Link to post

Judas was imperfect. Did the Savior know he would be a traitor when he called him?

Are human imperfections proof that callings are not made through revelation?

I think the Savior called Judas according to the Father's will, which Jesus infallibly followed. We don't have the back-story on the Father's will on that point. It could also well be that any or more than one of the twelve had the potential to betray Him, just as we all do. I think the bottom line is that Jesus perceived that He would be betrayed for money in connection with the other prophecies about Him and how he would give His life.

I think the D&C's references to "seemeth you/him" good allows that revelation and delegation are both used in issuing callings. Any calling is an opportunity for agency, repentance and grace, and in these God makes no mistakes.

I think human imperfections are only proof that callings are given to imperfect people, not whether the callng is inspired or not.

Share this post

Link to post

I think the Savior called Judas according to the Father's will, which Jesus infallibly followed. We don't have the back-story on the Father's will on that point. It could also well be that any or more than one of the twelve had the potential to betray Him, just as we all do. I think the bottom line is that Jesus perceived that He would be betrayed for money in connection with the other prophecies about Him and how he would give His life.

I think the D&C's references to "seemeth you/him" good allows that revelation and delegation are both used in issuing callings. Any calling is an opportunity for agency, repentance and grace, and in these God makes no mistakes.

Correct.....but men do. And that's where the fallibility applies here.

I think what is key to this discussion is whether or not the calling was issued by someone who knew of the prior sexual abuse issues (or whatever should prevent the person from serving in that calling) BEFORE they approved or called the person to serve.

If they did, that's a different discussion, IMO.

If they did not know, then it's a matter of a human doing the best they can and still making mistakes of judgement that may end up having horrible consequences.

All my stock picks will be made through inspiration, although some won't be. But you can trust me because I have special guidance from God for the inspired picks. Your money is safe with me.

But like I said, not all my picks will be the inspired ones. Some will just be regular uninspired stock picks like everyone else makes. You can tell the difference because the inspired ones will be the ones that make money, and the uninspired ones will be the ones that lose money. The break-even picks are also inspired because sometimes God just wants us to break even.

If this sounds like all the other mutual funds that also sometimes make money and sometimes lose money, that's because even though I have a special conduit to God regarding stock picks, He doesn't want everyone to know. I mean, He wants them to "know" because I'm telling them and they believe me, but he doesn't want them to know-know because all the picks make money.

All my stock picks will be made through inspiration, although some won't be. But you can trust me because I have special guidance from God for the inspired picks. Your money is safe with me.

But like I said, not all my picks will be the inspired ones. Some will just be regular uninspired stock picks like everyone else makes. You can tell the difference because the inspired ones will be the ones that make money, and the uninspired ones will be the ones that lose money. The break-even picks are also inspired because sometimes God just wants us to break even.

If this sounds like all the other mutual funds that also sometimes make money and sometimes lose money, that's because even though I have a special conduit for God regarding stock picks, He doesn't want everyone to know. I mean, He wants them to "know" because I'm telling them and they believe me, but he doesn't want them to know because all the picks make money. That's just the way it works with me and Him.

Share this post

Link to post

Correct.....but men do. And that's where the fallibility applies here.

I think what is key to this discussion is whether or not the calling was issued by someone who knew of the prior sexual abuse issues (or whatever should prevent the person from serving in that calling) BEFORE they approved or called the person to serve.

If they did, that's a different discussion, IMO.

If they did not know, then it's a matter of a human doing the best they can and still making mistakes of judgement that may end up having horrible consequences.

So now it's about sex abuse. OK. Didn't see that in the OP...

But I hereby want everyone to know that I think it is wrong, I would not call someone I knew was a sex abuser, I would reject any revelation to do so, and would tell my stake president if I ever got such a revelation. I wonder if you would.

Got any other scenarios?

That said, I don't know the minds and hearts of individual bishops, so as far as I'm concerned the Lord considers acting one man's motive and intent leads to rebellion and another man's leads to mistakes.

Link to post

But I hereby want everyone to know that I think it is wrong, I would not call someone I knew was a sex abuser, I would reject any revelation to do so, and would tell my stake president if I ever got such a revelation. I wonder if you would.

Wow.

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Got any other scenarios?

This was a spin off from the other thread discussing a man who is charged with sex abuse that served as a Bishop and currently serves as a High Councilor. There seems to be a question regarding who knew what and when. I've made no judgments on that case, but that's why I used the example I did in my post.

Share this post

Link to post

We assume that anything God does would be without error. Therefore, if God is to “inspire” something or, say, organize a church, will there not be bad things that can come from within that? The more broad question is, if God presumably created this world, would he allow people the calling of parents who will seriously abuse or harm their children? It seems to me being a parent has a lot more responsibility, as well as a much more immense potential for evil, than being a local leader in a congregation. Why would we not struggle with believing God could allow so many people be placed into the worldly circumstances that they are in, but feel his hand must surely not be involved in any kind of organization where unfortunate events happen?

Ergo, if we don’t believe God can have a church authorized by him and simultaneously contain people who, in positions of power, fall mightily and inflict harm on others, then we may want to ask how God could also author this human existence while knowing so much evil would be afflicted on so many in the process.

Judas was imperfect. Did the Savior know he would be a traitor when he called him?

Are human imperfections proof that callings are not made through revelation?

IMO for Jesus to be Jesus he had to be limited like the rest of us. His power was being like us and still chosing the good. If he had exhaustive foreknowledge that'd pretty well undermine the two natures that was so key to his mission. Thus he couldn't have known what Judas would do until Judas chose that. Now it's plausible that Judas was always an obviously bad guy and Jesus picked him precisely so he'd betray Jesus. That seems less likely though. Of course the second question is if Jesus knew, when he knew. After all Jesus may not have had a clue when he picked him but had at least inklings Judas might betray him towards the end.

I don't think human imperfects are proof callings are not made thorugh revelation, however human imperfections in the leader making the call entail that they might have a revelation or listen to a revelation if it is sent. I think assuming that there's an explicit unambiguous revelation for every calling is ridiculous. They can happen of course. But we have to remember the Church is structured so everyone has a calling if they want it. That's as much for the person called as anything. Further there's tons of needs in the Chruch. In fact many wards (even in Provo) have trouble filling callings.

I'd finally add that those talking about callings being revealed typically assume the decision is portrayed as all God. That seems deeply wrong. First off God has to deal with the situation on the ground like the rest of us. i.e. more callings than there are good people for. Further God (and Bishops) are also interested in developing people. So a person can get a call not because they're particularly good at a calling but because the calling is good for them. Finally there's free will so even the best person in the ideal calling can freely choose to do something evil.

Share this post

Link to post

There's a scripture and I think it's in Alma, that says "You cannot hide your crimes from God" You could get away with whatever and yet everyone who has ever lived will stand before God someday and if you didn't repent then he knows all about it and will hold you accountable for it

Share this post

Link to post

So, is God incapable of identifying future transgressions to prevent a child from becoming the prey of a sexual predator in waiting?

Definitely. Does that mean that He always (or even usually) does prevent child abuse (or other evil that people choose to commit)? No. People are (mostly) free to choose to hurt others if they want. Mortality and agency really suck that way.