I like the list. There probably is some optimization that can be done on it. But 2000pts in general has very little room to swap things out.

On thing I would consider is swapping the short bows on the wolf riders for a nasty Skulker in the goblin unit. 10 BS3 S3 shots that have always moved will not do very much in my opinion. While 3 killing blow attacks (even at ws2) could be trouble (or, for a more serious option, use the 10 points for more chukka's, see below, if you have the room in core of course).

Another is dropping one or two snotling bases for more spear chukka's. 2 isn't all that threatening. 4 might keep stuff a bit more honest. And at 2000pts you're maybe a bit heavy on redirectors.

SpellArcher wrote:

I suspect elves will be able to deal with them but not all enemies will have such accurate shooting. At worst they die but force the foe to spend time on them and they can inhibit movement. I agree Rod, 2 is the way to go.

Shooting or a well placed magic missile are a good way to deal with a mangler. So indeed, elves probably have enough tools to deal with them, even 2 of them. The manglers would achieve very little against a loremaster for instance, other then drawing a bunch of power dice in the first two turns or so. But against a lot of other lists, the best option is simply running a cheap unit into it I think. I would gladly sacrifice a great eagle or a unit of reavers to get rid of a mangler.

Of course, this also means that a mangler shines in an environment where people don't bring a lot of redirectors or chaff units. Which is, surprisingly in my opinion, quite common. Having a mangler crash through some big, tough block and deal 2D6 s6 AP hits and then having it rampage through your backline can spell disaster for your army.

I like the orc. He's fairly simple. But he should make a good rank and file unit. And in a big unit I think he'll look pretty good.

Rod

_________________

Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

On thing I would consider is swapping the short bows on the wolf riders for a nasty Skulker in the goblin unit. 10 BS3 S3 shots that have always moved will not do very much in my opinion

You have a point but I feel this is a matter of taste. The shooting was great last game. Yes a bit lucky. The models also have bows!

Prince of Spires wrote:

Another is dropping one or two snotling bases for more spear chukka's. 2 isn't all that threatening. 4 might keep stuff a bit more honest. And at 2000pts you're maybe a bit heavy on redirectors.

This I completely agree with. The Snotlings aren't very good, they are currently in because they're painted! Artillery is the big weakness of the list. I dislike Doom Divers aesthetically but I really should get a second Rock Lobber in. The Lvl 2 is also replaceable. He's not bad but if I drop him and the Snotlings that's 270 points to play with. I'm quite tempted to raise a unit of Black Orcs. They're not often seen (they're not Core) but I like the models and I think I can make them work.

Prince of Spires wrote:

Of course, this also means that a mangler shines in an environment where people don't bring a lot of redirectors or chaff units. Which is, surprisingly in my opinion, quite common. Having a mangler crash through some big, tough block and deal 2D6 s6 AP hits and then having it rampage through your backline can spell disaster for your army.

In my experience it's also very easy to forget that Random Movement can potentially hit anything within 18", in any direction.

Prince of Spires wrote:

I like the orc. He's fairly simple. But he should make a good rank and file unit. And in a big unit I think he'll look pretty good.

They indeed look great as a unit. And the grass bases work well with your simple (but very effective) color scheme. The extra spot color was mainly a feeling I got from the model, where it would add just a little bit extra.

Rod

_________________

Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

As mentioned in a different thread, 30 models in a unit is a lot for me. Looking at all units I have, I've found that I have exactly 1 unit of 30 models, which is my LSG. I did actually paint them in one go. And the only reason I didn't go mad doing so I think was that it is a mix of 20 metal LSG and 10 IoB ones. And so far I haven't found the motivation to paint up the second set of 10 IoB LSG...

_________________

Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

As mentioned in a different thread, 30 models in a unit is a lot for me. Looking at all units I have, I've found that I have exactly 1 unit of 30 models, which is my LSG. I did actually paint them in one go. And the only reason I didn't go mad doing so I think was that it is a mix of 20 metal LSG and 10 IoB ones. And so far I haven't found the motivation to paint up the second set of 10 IoB LSG...

No joke, is it Rod? I really feel like I’m crossing the half-way point with this unit. Much left to do but much done too. My armies tend to start with enthusiasm, slow down in the middle, then pick up again down the stretch. This one is just entering the third phase.

This guy is Hardnose Mard, a Champion from one of the Regiments of Renown.

As mentioned in a different thread, 30 models in a unit is a lot for me. Looking at all units I have, I've found that I have exactly 1 unit of 30 models, which is my LSG. I did actually paint them in one go. And the only reason I didn't go mad doing so I think was that it is a mix of 20 metal LSG and 10 IoB ones. And so far I haven't found the motivation to paint up the second set of 10 IoB LSG...

No joke, is it Rod? I really feel like I’m crossing the half-way point with this unit. Much left to do but much done too. My armies tend to start with enthusiasm, slow down in the middle, then pick up again down the stretch. This one is just entering the third phase.

That's the great thing when you're building a specific army, like you are. My elves are a continuous collection in progress. So there's no clear end I'm working towards. But I recognize the feeling. I have it with a lot of projects as well. Lots of ideas and enthusiasm at the start, which drops off in the middle as the work becomes more a slog. And then loads of enthusiasm again towards the end as everything comes together.

Rod

_________________

Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

This guy looks really old school! I like how your army is coming together Have you played any games with them recently?

_________________' "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle.""Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins. 'Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

I really like the old school Orcs! I hadn't seen too many before recently, and the first time I saw them I thought they were Goblins! That said, I like their aesthetic a bit more than the current GW Orcs, though that could just be my attachment to Tolkien and the old school orcs fit the orcs of Middle Earth much better.

I really like the old school Orcs! I hadn't seen too many before recently, and the first time I saw them I thought they were Goblins! That said, I like their aesthetic a bit more than the current GW Orcs, though that could just be my attachment to Tolkien and the old school orcs fit the orcs of Middle Earth much better.

They’re small but still square-jawed, gobbos have sharper faces. This last guy is actually from after Kev Adams left GW but you can see the similar aesthetic. He’s slightly more detailed and I really like the form of the model, that scimitar pose kind of gathers it in.

elendor_f wrote:

Have you played any games with them recently?

No, I’m building towards Milton Keynes in June, hoping to have 2000pts painted by then.

Prince of Spires wrote:

Perhaps he inspires not so much with the quality of his music but by the threat he implies with that hammer if you don't listen to him. Sounds likely enough for an Orc

I’m happy with the Orcs. They’re a solid home for my characters and 27 should be enough at this points level. My existing Wolf Rider unit has done well so far so that stays too. Given I’m introducing Mangler Squigs I’m not sure the second unit is necessary though and I’m not really inclined to paint more of the same. Worse, the foot Goblins have been rubbish so far. Ld 6 makes them totally unreliable outside 12” of the General/BSB. I hardly need to tell elf players how much better 30” archery range is than 24”. Now consider the 18” of Shortbows. CaledorRises had one game where his Reavers roamed completely unchecked because of a lack of effective greenskin archery, see here for his blog:

The solution I’ve hit on is 18 Arrer Boyz. 24” range isn’t amazing but it’s functional. Ld 7 means I can at least consider using them away from my characters. With T4, Choppas and command they can fight at a pinch. As an elf exile I really, really miss basic archery, it just lets your army do more stuff. So we have:

I think the trick to goblin archers (and goblin units in general) is that they need a character in them to actually really function. It's sort of a 35pts LD banner that comes out of your character allowance and can attack a bit (not actually that different from the standard of discipline, once you factor in that you need a banner bearer and model to carry it, which would be 28.5pts for a common goblin).

I agree that short bows suck, even more so with bs3, which means you're often hitting on 5's or 6's. On the other hand, you can bring almost twice as many of them as you do arrer boys. And quantity has a quality of its own. 26 goblins with FC + goblin character comes in at the same points level. 8 more shots, but at a lower range. Though I guess that you're more likely to go 9 wide then to go 14 wide. So you'll lose some of the extra shots. I guess that indeed the boys are a better bargain here. And you'd mainly take the goblins if you like them, not because they are the best choice.

It would be interesting to keep track of how the boys perform. I'm not too sold on their use. But that might just be because I normally have terrible luck with archers (of any kind). I do think going for a full contingent of 6 bolt throwers in special could be an option. It's only slightly more expensive then the boys (and special instead of core). But double the range (and free pivots) is huge.

I'm interested to see how you'll manage with only one unit of wolf riders. 1 redirector at 2000pts is often good enough. But, especially with ld6, it's also only a handful of shots away from useless. Why do you give them bows? Will those 5 S3 shots really make a difference? I would sooner give them a musician, just to have that higher chance of rallying.

Rod

_________________

Eirik wrote:

Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

I think the trick to goblin archers (and goblin units in general) is that they need a character in them to actually really function. It's sort of a 35pts LD banner that comes out of your character allowance and can attack a bit (not actually that different from the standard of discipline, once you factor in that you need a banner bearer and model to carry it, which would be 28.5pts for a common goblin).

Interesting point Rod. I guess I prefer simplicity overall. Goblin-heavy builds tend to be complex in my experience, with multiple characters and tricks like fanatics and loads of Impact Hits.

Prince of Spires wrote:

I agree that short bows suck, even more so with bs3, which means you're often hitting on 5's or 6's. On the other hand, you can bring almost twice as many of them as you do arrer boys. And quantity has a quality of its own. 26 goblins with FC + goblin character comes in at the same points level. 8 more shots, but at a lower range. Though I guess that you're more likely to go 9 wide then to go 14 wide. So you'll lose some of the extra shots. I guess that indeed the boys are a better bargain here. And you'd mainly take the goblins if you like them, not because they are the best choice.

I think it boils down to sometimes simply being outside of 18” thus not being able to shoot at all.

Prince of Spires wrote:

It would be interesting to keep track of how the boys perform. I'm not too sold on their use. But that might just be because I normally have terrible luck with archers (of any kind). I do think going for a full contingent of 6 bolt throwers in special could be an option. It's only slightly more expensive then the boys (and special instead of core). But double the range (and free pivots) is huge.

I’m putting these archers in because they’re a good fit for my list but I agree that might not be enough to overcome their overall dubiousness. There’s not much synergy with magic either. I love the models though! Quite right I need more artillery. Not sure I could face painting 6 BT’s but I might be up to 4. Of course I should really get 2 Doom Divers, which would also cover anti-personnel duties. I just don’t like them!

Prince of Spires wrote:

I'm interested to see how you'll manage with only one unit of wolf riders. 1 redirector at 2000pts is often good enough. But, especially with ld6, it's also only a handful of shots away from useless. Why do you give them bows? Will those 5 S3 shots really make a difference? I would sooner give them a musician, just to have that higher chance of rallying.

I feel the 2 Manglers will mess with the enemy’s movement enough to cover things. You’re in good company being sceptical about Fast Cav shots Rod, Seredain was too. I guess they just seem to work for the way I play. They’re also 5 points compared to 10 for a musician. I get the rallying angle but the ability to Swift Reform (normally vital for archers) would be superfluous here of course.

I like the Arrer Boys more than the Goblins in the list. The extra range I think could be very useful, 18" range is just too short, that's within the average charge range of anything movement 9 or 10, and 20 Goblins just won't last at all in close combat. I know they're not really supposed to be in CC, but with that short of a range they will have to be close enough to an enemy that charging them is a very real possibility and an easy points grab. The Orcs are at least a bit more daunting in CC with S4 and T4 in the first round, so they can't be removed as easily. Warmachines like Spear Chukkas or Doom Divers would probably be more useful, but they don't come from Core, which I think is key.

I also love that Shaman! I've never seen the model before, but it looks more evil than a lot of the current Orc sculpts, some of which are a bit too comical and bumbling for my taste.