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Re: Though it won't happen...

What I don't get is the complete blind hatred you and tom seem to have for Thomas.

Why do you keep saying this rubbish?

I admire Isiah Thomas. He was one of my favorite players, and his life story (escaping his crappy neighborhood) is inspirational.

I simply have, like Jay, a different definition of the word "good".

He was not a good coach. Despite all of the coaching turmoil early in this season, his name never came up for a coaching job.

He has a good gig right now. I've never questioned his player evaluation skills.

You seem to have a lot of hatred for my opinion on this, which seems to be 75% the same opinion as yours.

on these points we agree:

1. Replacing Isiah Thomas with Rick Carlisle was a good move.
2. The timing of the firing was poor-- it should have been done earlier.
3. Isiah Thomas was well-liked and a good mentor and role model to at least a few key players
4. IT had some obvious shortcomings in handling player rotations and getting consistent effort and production
5. Insinuations that IT didn't work hard or was uncommunicative are unfair. We don't know what went on in the minds (and offices) of Bird, Thomas, and Walsh

on this we disagree:

1. You say IT deserved to be fired, though he was "good" whereas I say he was not "good"
2. You say (I think) that since the timing of the firing was not right it would have been better not to fire him at all, or at least to give him another year. I say that not firing him after the Boston series was a mistake, and if they chose once again to not fire him after Bird came on board, it would have been compounding the mistake.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Though it won't happen...

However, it is just as delusional to dismiss Thomas's accomplishments as it is to say we'd win 70 games with him still as coach.

-snip-

131-115 record in three years as Pacers coach.

3 straight years of playoff appearances. 5-10 in the playoffs.

Took a dismantled Finals roster with an average age of 24 (the youngest team 3 years running) to the playoffs, and was competitive in each series. For some perspective, Paul Silas coaches (I believe) the youngest team in basketball right now. They will make the playoffs with a losing record in one of the worst Eastern Conferences in recent memory. Thomas never lost more than 40 games, always maintained a winning record, and improved the team each year he was coach.

-snip-

He was good. The facts say he was. You can have your personal opinion about him, his methods, etc. He should have done this, benched this guy, played that guy, called a timeout, whatever. However, the facts say he was good. What degree of good is debatable, but to call Thomas "bad" or "medicore" screams ignorance and/or blind hatred.

That's your definition of good?

In my world, that qualifies as "barely passing."

Let's review Jay's grading scale:
Winning a championship = A
Losing in game seven of The Finals = A-
Losing in game six of The Finals = B+
Losing in game five of The Finals = B
Losing in game four of The Finals = B-
Losing in game seven of the ECF = C+
Losing in games four, five or six of the ECF = C
Losing in East semis = C-
Losing in first round = D
Not making playoffs = F

But hey, I just had to fire a very, very smart University of Michigan business school grad because he had sloppy work habits resulting from a simlilar definition of "good". Among other problems, he was proud of himself that his work was 90% right and only 10% needed re-work. But everyone else around here strives for and achieves > 99.0% accuracy.

You, on the other hand, will annoint a barely-over-0.500 coach as "good."

The difference is clearly in the definition of "good." That's fine, but I'm sticking with the higher grading scale.

Your are certainly entitled to your standards Jay. However, by your own standards, more than half of the NBA coaches this year flat out stink (only 16 teams make the playoffs, with 8 of those 16 losing in the first round). Another 4 will lose in the semis. I mean, the best team in the east (in order to get a friggin B) needs to go to game 5. So, to use your own standard, if Larry Brown loses in the east semis to Indy, he stinks. He gets a C-, and last I checked that isn't too good (especially considering Detroit fired our current coach to get Larry).

Your standards are your own, but the sound a bit harsh to me. And holding soemone like Isiah Thomas (who, for much of his coaching career, did not have the mature talent Carlsile now has, not did he coach in an Eastern Conference as weak as this one) to these standards is also a bit much.

My opinion.

A fair point - those are "organization" grades, not necessarily coaching grades. It becomes very subjective to split the responsibility for these grades between coaches, players and management. After all, its a players' game.

But guess what, you're right in that there are probably only four-to-five "difference making" coaches in the league - that Phil Jackson punk, JVG, Carlisle, Brownie and probably Riley (if he just allows himself to coach and not play GM in his next job.) Nellie, Pops and Adelman deserve some consideration at the next level.

I'm sure if you graph the ratings of NBA coaches that they'll fall under a "normal" bell curve. So half (15) of them are average, which is a "C", one quarter of them (7 to 8) are above average, one quarter of them are below average.

Hey, somebody has to hold these guys to a standard of greatness, or else they're open to accepting mediocrity. Three straight years of first-round exits with a team that - at least for the last two seasons - had more talent on paper than our current team - is mediocre at best.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Though it won't happen...

What I don't get is the complete blind hatred you and tom seem to have for Thomas. What did this guy do to you? Does he have pictures of you in a dress in bed with a circus miget? I mean, come on guy! Thomas was a good coach. Carlisle is better, no question, but give Thomas his due. We would not have the record we have now, and the quality players on our rsoter, without Thomas's teaching. That is just a plain, simple fact. Your failure to see or even ACKNOWLEDGE that is baffling.

This is where each is entitled to their own opinion - which you simply don't allow others to have. I do not think IT was a good coach at all. His 'quick' offense ? Please. His 'each player plays all positions' ?? His rotation patterns - if you can call them a pattern at all. His decision making late in games ? His use (and lack of) timeouts ? I could go on, but those are my reasons for not liking him as a coach.

I never said anything else against him, so your fabricated thought of my hatred for him is way off base. You seem to think that everyone that doesn't like him as a coach just hates the guy. That's your problem.

Re: Though it won't happen...

It has been pointed out that east is weak. Yes it is but it is stronger than it has been the last three years.

The Sixers made the finals in 01 because there was no one else to go.

The Nets barely made the finals in 02 because they actually had a team.

The Nets made the finals in 03 because we fell on our @ss.

The Pistons, Pacers, Hornets, Knicks, Nets, and Bucks are all better than the Sixers were in 01.

Had we kept our team together we would have been to the finals for the last four years. Now that team would not make it this year but our current team has a shot at it. Isiah failed because he went nowhere with more talent and less competition than Rick is.

Re: Though it won't happen...

What I don't get is the complete blind hatred you and tom seem to have for Thomas.

Why do you keep saying this rubbish?

I admire Isiah Thomas. He was one of my favorite players, and his life story (escaping his crappy neighborhood) is inspirational.

I simply have, like Jay, a different definition of the word "good".

He was not a good coach. Despite all of the coaching turmoil early in this season, his name never came up for a coaching job.

He has a good gig right now. I've never questioned his player evaluation skills.

You seem to have a lot of hatred for my opinion on this, which seems to be 75% the same opinion as yours.

on these points we agree:

1. Replacing Isiah Thomas with Rick Carlisle was a good move.
2. The timing of the firing was poor-- it should have been done earlier.
3. Isiah Thomas was well-liked and a good mentor and role model to at least a few key players
4. IT had some obvious shortcomings in handling player rotations and getting consistent effort and production
5. Insinuations that IT didn't work hard or was uncommunicative are unfair. We don't know what went on in the minds (and offices) of Bird, Thomas, and Walsh

on this we disagree:

1. You say IT deserved to be fired, though he was "good" whereas I say he was not "good"
2. You say (I think) that since the timing of the firing was not right it would have been better not to fire him at all, or at least to give him another year. I say that not firing him after the Boston series was a mistake, and if they chose once again to not fire him after Bird came on board, it would have been compounding the mistake.

On our agreements, that sounds correct. On our disagreements, I have these slight changes:

1. I don't think he "deserved" to be fired. I merely feel that if he was going to be fired, it should have happened in May. Not August. This factored in greatly with his not getting another HC job. Had he been fired in May, he'd be coaching Philly into the playoffs right now. I have no doubt of that. It is my personal opinion that Walsh was not upset with Thomas. Bird wanted to work with Rick, not Zeke, and that is why Thomas was fired. Not because of any coaching failures. It was a personal preference with Bird, and not a performance problem with the previous coach. It's the same reasoning that cost Carlisle his job in Detroit. It had nothing to do with his job performance. The owner just didn't "like" Rick. He perferred (and "liked") Brown.

2. No, I don't think that he should NOT have been fired after a certain point. I take issue to them saying to JO that Thomas would stay, then do a complete 180 right after they sign JO. That's slimey business, and unbecoming a classy org like Indy. I would have had no problem with Isiah as coach this year. At present, I also have no problem with Carlisle being coach. Isiah himself said it best: If Donnie wanted Rick as coach, why not promote Isiah to GM (a position he would have taken), and have Isiah bring in Rick? That would have been the ideal situation. My opinion.

Side note: The one person I'm not thrilled about is Bird. He has yet to show me he can run an org effectively.

Re: Though it won't happen...

If Donnie wanted Rick as coach, why not promote Isiah to GM (a position he would have taken), and have Isiah bring in Rick? That would have been the ideal situation. My opinion.

I actually agree with this. I think Isiah has GM skills where I am not yet sure that Bird does. We would have saved several million dollars possibly allowing us to keep Brad. (thats for you guys who think it was a money thing)

The only question is how would IT and Rick work together? I am not sure it would work out. IT likes to stick his finger in the player pot a little too much. He would probably be undermining Ricks authority on a regular basis and that would be bad for the team.

Of course if he did that Donnie would have the perfect reason to fire him as G.M. and no one could complain.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Let's review Jay's grading scale:
Winning a championship = A
Losing in game seven of The Finals = A-
Losing in game six of The Finals = B+
Losing in game five of The Finals = B
Losing in game four of The Finals = B-
Losing in game seven of the ECF = C+
Losing in games four, five or six of the ECF = C
Losing in East semis = C-
Losing in first round = D
Not making playoffs = F

But guess what, you're right in that there are probably only four-to-five "difference making" coaches in the league - that Phil Jackson punk, JVG, Carlisle, Brownie and probably Riley (if he just allows himself to coach and not play GM in his next job.) Nellie, Pops and Adelman deserve some consideration at the next level.

So then by your own grading scale, Jay, Rick is a C+ coach at best. That certainly wouldn't qualify as a difference maker in my book. But then, I don't agree with your grade scale. I wouldn't call someone who's made it to the ECFs two out of his three seasons as a head coach a C-level coach. By your standards, Larry Bird would have been a B-level coach. But I would contend they are both difference makers and if you're going to attach a alphabetical grade to either, I'd have to say they are both without a doubt A-level coaches. Isiah? C-level at best. At best. I never liked the guy as a coach so it would be easy for me to give him an F, but I'm trying to remain at least partially objective.

Re: Though it won't happen...

If Donnie wanted Rick as coach, why not promote Isiah to GM (a position he would have taken), and have Isiah bring in Rick? That would have been the ideal situation. My opinion.

I actually agree with this. I think Isiah has GM skills where I am not yet sure that Bird does. We would have saved several million dollars possibly allowing us to keep Brad. (thats for you guys who think it was a money thing)

I don't know that Donnie ever saw IT as his replacement the same way as he did Bird. Wasn't Bird offered ownership in his first contract(1 or 2%)? That's something IT never was offered. So I think the simple answer is Donnie or the Simons didn't see IT in that role.

I think IT has a good eye for a certian kind of talent. I am not convienced he knows how to put a team together.

"They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

"'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

Re: Though it won't happen...

No, I don't think that he should NOT have been fired after a certain point. I take issue to them saying to JO that Thomas would stay, then do a complete 180 right after they sign JO. That's slimey business, and unbecoming a classy org like Indy. I would have had no problem with Isiah as coach this year. At present, I also have no problem with Carlisle being coach. Isiah himself said it best: If Donnie wanted Rick as coach, why not promote Isiah to GM (a position he would have taken), and have Isiah bring in Rick? That would have been the ideal situation. My opinion.

Side note: The one person I'm not thrilled about is Bird. He has yet to show me he can run an org effectively.

I completely disagree with this.

1.) When is a good time to fire a person? When is a good time to be fired? Ask Chaney? Bet he'd say the same thing most people would. Never. New GM in, existing coach out. Happened in Indy. Happened in New York. Isiah had it done to him, he turns around and does it someone else. You'd think he'd have more compassion, but hey, even Isiah understands, it's business.

2.) Bird has yet to show you he can run an organization effectively? I didn't know he was answering to you. And I would say that firing Isiah and hiring Rick trumps anything Isiah has done in New York to date. Bird has been on the job for 8 months. And he's still answering to Walsh. I bet Donnie has an entirely different opinion on this than you do, and seeing as he's the one Bird answers to, it's the only opinion that matters. Not yours.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Bulletproff: You are entitled to think what you want. Bird firing Isiah the way he did was sleazy, IMO. They'd re-signed JO and told him to his face that Thomas would be retained. Then, they broke their word. Sleazy business practice. Unbecoming the Pacers.

And to address this statement:"I didn't know [Bird] was answering to you?"

What's THAT about? Yes, he does answer to me. I'm a paying fan. He also answeres to you too. And while were on the subject of Donnie, I will remind you that Walsh had ZERO problems with Thomas, nor did he say Thomas was responsible for the playoff meltdown. Bird said he wanted to work with Rick. Donnie, having recently hired Bird, gave in and allowed Bird to fire Thomas.

Look, we can debate this back and forth all day. For myself, Bird did not show to me that he was a good GM by firing Thomas the way he did. I would prefer thomas as my team's GM and Carlisle as my team's coach, in a perfect world. I'll leave it at that.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Isiah's firing may not have been handled the best but what were they to do?

You are tlaking about the way it was handled but you are not taking into account that Jermaine had backed them into a corner. If they fired Isiah before Jermaine resigned and he bolts because of loyalty we risk loosing him for nothing.

Fast foreward to now and you have Jermaine saying that had he had the knoledge he has now he would have stayed. But he had been saying for the first half of the season that he would have left. Jermaine is young and did not know what was really best for his own success.

Also you know some other team would have snapped up Isiah just to try and get Jermaine. Isiah then would probably not have lasted more than one season there but they might have Jermaine.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Isiah's firing may not have been handled the best but what were they to do?

You are tlaking about the way it was handled but you are not taking into account that Jermaine had backed them into a corner. If they fired Isiah before Jermaine resigned and he bolts because of loyalty we risk loosing him for nothing.

Fast foreward to now and you have Jermaine saying that had he had the knoledge he has now he would have stayed. But he had been saying for the first half of the season that he would have left. Jermaine is young and did not know what was really best for his own success.

Also you know some other team would have snapped up Isiah just to try and get Jermaine. Isiah then would probably not have lasted more than one season there but they might have Jermaine.

Jermaine would be in San Antonio right now, skipping to an eventual championship, had he known Isiah would be fired. That's not backing Indy into any corner. Jermaine knows good coaching (as most pro player do) and wanted to stay with Thomas. What's wrong with that? Simple, nothing. I admire his honesty.

Name calling is frowned upon, so if you avoid that (which in this thread I believe you have), you should be all right.

So I'm arrogant, bitter, as well as blind, blitzed, or crazy.

And you haven't been berating people or calling anyone names in this thread.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Though it won't happen...

Tom, stop whining. I disagree stongly with your opinion. I did not call you a name. And as far as name calling, you are one to talk. your "NewYawk state of mind... " comment was not taken as name calling by me. You just disagreed, and placed a funny smilee next to it... as I did.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Jermaine would be in San Antonio right now, skipping to an eventual championship, had he known Isiah would be fired. That's not backing Indy into any corner. Jermaine knows good coaching (as most pro player do) and wanted to stay with Thomas. What's wrong with that? Simple, nothing. I admire his honesty.

He was up front with the Pacers. They were not up front with him.

How is that not backing them into a corner? They would have lost their star player you dont see that as backing them into a corner?

As far as the good coaching thing goes you are just deluding yourself if you think Isiah was a good coach. He was decent at developing young talent (by that I mean he played them) But he was by no means any good at the X's and O's

Re: Though it won't happen...

Jermaine would be in San Antonio right now, skipping to an eventual championship, had he known Isiah would be fired. That's not backing Indy into any corner. Jermaine knows good coaching (as most pro player do) and wanted to stay with Thomas. What's wrong with that? Simple, nothing. I admire his honesty.

He was up front with the Pacers. They were not up front with him.

How is that not backing them into a corner? They would have lost their star player you dont see that as backing them into a corner?

As far as the good coaching thing goes you are just deluding yourself if you think Isiah was a good coach. He was decent at developing young talent (by that I mean he played them) But he was by no means any good at the X's and O's

We will agree to disagree on Isiah being a good coach. As far as JO, no it is not backng them into a corner. Walsh had no problem with Thomas as coach. If you want to keep your star player, you have to provide him with an environment he is comfortable in. Think of it from Jo's POV: Why play for Indiana if Isiah isn't the coach? If I have to work with a new coach, I might as well go to San Antonio and establish a dynasty with Duncan. Oh, and while I'm there, I can make the EXACT same salary as I would make in Indy.

Also, consider that Isiah didn't HAVE to be the coach. If Donnie REALLY wanted Rick, he could have made Zeke the GM and Rick the coach... making everyone happy.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Let's review Jay's grading scale:
Winning a championship = A
Losing in game seven of The Finals = A-
Losing in game six of The Finals = B+
Losing in game five of The Finals = B
Losing in game four of The Finals = B-
Losing in game seven of the ECF = C+
Losing in games four, five or six of the ECF = C
Losing in East semis = C-
Losing in first round = D
Not making playoffs = F

But guess what, you're right in that there are probably only four-to-five "difference making" coaches in the league - that Phil Jackson punk, JVG, Carlisle, Brownie and probably Riley (if he just allows himself to coach and not play GM in his next job.) Nellie, Pops and Adelman deserve some consideration at the next level.

So then by your own grading scale, Jay, Rick is a C+ coach at best. That certainly wouldn't qualify as a difference maker in my book. But then, I don't agree with your grade scale. I wouldn't call someone who's made it to the ECFs two out of his three seasons as a head coach a C-level coach. By your standards, Larry Bird would have been a B-level coach. But I would contend they are both difference makers and if you're going to attach a alphabetical grade to either, I'd have to say they are both without a doubt A-level coaches. Isiah? C-level at best. At best. I never liked the guy as a coach so it would be easy for me to give him an F, but I'm trying to remain at least partially objective.

Yeah, I'll admit I'm not real proud of that particular post. Not well worded at all. Sorry. But L. Bird made it to game 6 of The Finals, so ingoring my very next sentence below, so he's a B+.

A fair point - those are "organization" grades, not necessarily coaching grades. It becomes very subjective to split the responsibility for these grades between coaches, players and management. After all, its a players' game.

The jist of it (as Randy the Helpful Pineapple would say) is that I purposefully have a difficult grading scale. Hey, I can't wait for the day when we've got a real championship so that the Pacers can take down those silly divisional and conference championship banners.

Hey, somebody has to hold these guys to a standard of greatness, or else they're open to accepting mediocrity.

I think back to 'bulletproof's dream' right before the trading deadline, when Larry mumbled "its always next year around here."

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

Re: Though it won't happen...

And while were on the subject of Donnie, I will remind you that Walsh had ZERO problems with Thomas, nor did he say Thomas was responsible for the playoff meltdown.

I KNOW bulletproof is gonna respond to this.

You called it, Hicks. Here goes...

As far as JO, no it is not backng them into a corner. Walsh had no problem with Thomas as coach. If you want to keep your star player, you have to provide him with an environment he is comfortable in. Think of it from Jo's POV: Why play for Indiana if Isiah isn't the coach? If I have to work with a new coach, I might as well go to San Antonio and establish a dynasty with Duncan. Oh, and while I'm there, I can make the EXACT same salary as I would make in Indy.

Also, consider that Isiah didn't HAVE to be the coach. If Donnie REALLY wanted Rick, he could have made Zeke the GM and Rick the coach... making everyone happy.

Okay, one thing at a time here. Where do you get this, "Walsh had no problem with Isiah as a coach." If that isn't pulling something out of one's wazoo I don't know what is. I'm not going to repeat myself, so I'll just go back to one of my earlier posts in this thread. Read it. Memorize it. Then you may know what you're talking about if you ever have this discussion in the future.

Donnie is an extremely loyal guy and genuinely liked Isiah as a person. But even he would have liked to have replaced Isiah with JVG during the collapse. I'm sure finances came into play. I'm sure loyalty came into play. I'm sure a reluctance to admit that he made a mistake figured into it as well. But once he hired Bird he had to let him do his thing. Plus I suspect hiring Larry and turning the responsibility of coaching over to him was a fate accompli—something that Donnie really wanted to happen, but was too loyal and concerned about the team's finances to do on his own. If not for Larry, Isiah would have been back this season, or at the very least would have started the season. Whether or not he would have made it through the entire season, well, we'll never know.

As for your comments about JO, again you're just speculating wildly. I suspect he had no intention of going to SA. He may have entertained the thought, but he saw himself as Mr. Franchise, not a number 2 guy (much like how Kobe feels in LA).

And he most certainly was trying to hamstring the Pacers by openly saying he wouldn't play for anyone other than Isiah. He may not have been consciously aware that that was what he was doing at the time, but he was flexing nonetheless. But of course Bird had other plans. And Walsh wasn't going to stand in his way, nor was he going to allow himself or the team to be manipulated that way, so he's going to say what he has to to protect the team's interests. It's called business. DW's not going to allow a 24-year-old kid to call the shots or control the team. Go read the Iverson thread on this forum if you don't know what I'm talking about (Peck's post especially).

JO showed his hand and the Pacers trumped him. You call what they did sleazy. I call it shrewd.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Speaking of pulling something out of one's wazoo:

"Donnie is an extremely loyal guy and genuinely liked Isiah as a person. But even he would have liked to have replaced Isiah with JVG during the collapse. I'm sure finances came into play. I'm sure loyalty came into play. I'm sure a reluctance to admit that he made a mistake figured into it as well. But once he hired Bird he had to let him do his thing. Plus I suspect hiring Larry and turning the responsibility of coaching over to him was a fate accompli ?something that Donnie really wanted to happen, but was too loyal and concerned about the team's finances to do on his own. If not for Larry, Isiah would have been back this season, or at the very least would have started the season. Whether or not he would have made it through the entire season, well, we'll never know."

I'm sorry, but to assume that Walsh hired Bird just so Bird could fire Thomas is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. In fact, FLOCK IT! It's down right dumb. That is to say I don't think that YOU are dumb (far from it), but come on, man! Walsh, in 2000, tried to retain Bird as a President/GM (the title he holds now) while at the same time HIRE Isiah Thomas to coach the team. Bird didn't want that, and he left (for other reasons as well). In 2003, Walsh got what he wanted: Bird as GM, Zeke as coach. He introduced Bird WITH Zeke present for godsakes! Now, if Walsh hired Bird just so Bird could fire Zeke, then that press conference was a STUDY in sadism. The facts suggest your opinion is wrong. Walsh wanted Bird and Zeke to work together. When that wasn't possible, Walsh chose Bird. Simple as that.

As far as your assessment of JO: you're wrong, but I respect your opinion.

Re: Though it won't happen...

Speaking of pulling something out of one's wazoo:

I'm sorry, but to assume that Walsh hired Bird just so Bird could fire Thomas is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. In fact, FLOCK IT! It's down right dumb. That is to say I don't think that YOU are dumb (far from it), but come on, man! Walsh, in 2000, tried to retain Bird as a President/GM (the title he holds now) while at the same time HIRE Isiah Thomas to coach the team. Bird didn't want that, and he left (for other reasons as well). In 2003, Walsh got what he wanted: Bird as GM, Zeke as coach. He introduced Bird WITH Zeke present for godsakes! Now, if Walsh hired Bird just so Bird could fire Zeke, then that press conference was a STUDY in sadism. The facts suggest your opinion is wrong. Walsh wanted Bird and Zeke to work together. When that wasn't possible, Walsh chose Bird. Simple as that.

As far as your assessment of JO: you're wrong, but I respect your opinion.

No, I'm not wrong, on either count. Go back and read what I said. I didn't say that Walsh hired Bird just so Bird could fire Thomas. I said, "Hiring Larry and turning the responsibility of coaching over to him was a fate accompli—something that Donnie really wanted to happen, but was too loyal and concerned about the team's finances to do on his own."

If I'm speculating when it comes to the team, I'll say so. When I'm not, I'll just state something as a fact and leave it at that. In this case, I'm not speculating.