Russia blames Israel for the shooting down of her EW aircraft (UPDATED 2x)

It is pretty clear what took place yesterday night. Even if you don’t read Russian, the following chart released by the Russian Ministry of Defense says it all:

Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). The Israelis *deliberately* did not warn the Russians until less than a minute before the attack took place, thus the Russians did not have the time to tell the crew of the Il-20 electronic warfare aircraft, which was on approach for a landing, to take evasive action. When the Syrian S-200 fired their missiles to intercept the incoming missiles, the Israelis F-16 used the Il-20, which has a much bigger radar cross section, to hide themselves resulting in the loss of 15 lives and one aircraft.

Typical Israeli “cleverness”.

The Russian MoD placed the full blame on the Israelis and declared that this attack was “dastardly”, the Israeli actions as “hostile” and said that Russia “reserves the right” to respond with “adequate counter-actions”.

This is one of these rare opportunities when there is, I believe, a viable and logical option to respond: tell the Israelis that from now on any of their aircraft approaching anywhere near the Russian forces will be shot down.

Will the Russians do that?

I doubt it. Why? Because of the very powerful pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia.

I am pretty sure that the Russian military would love to take such an measure but, unfortunately, they are limited in their actions by the 5th columnists in the Russian government.

We shall see. If Russia does nothing, it will be interesting to see how those who deny the existence of a pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia will explain this.

The Saker

PS: the only positive effect from this tragedy is that this will go a long way to trash the image of Israel in the Russian public opinion (which is constantly subjected to pro-Zionist propaganda in much of the Russian media).

UPDATE1: there we go: Putin is already “downgrading” the gravity of what happened. He has just declared that “the Israeli jet didn’t down our aircraft” and spoke of “tragic circumstances“. True, he did add that the Russians will take measures that “everyone will notice” but I am personally dubious about these “steps”. I hope that I am wrong. We will find out soon.

UPDATE2: I am watching the Russian media and I have to report that Zionist propagandists (Russian liberals and Jewish commentators) look absolutely *terrible*: they are desperately trying to blame everybody (the Syrians, Hezbollah, and even the Russians) except for Israel. This will not sit well with the Russian public.

The Essential Saker III: Chronicling The Tragedy, Farce And Collapse of the Empire in the Era of Mr MAGA

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“MOSCOW, September 18. /TASS/. Russia will respond to actions on behalf of the Israeli Air Force that led to a fatal crash of Russia’s Il-20 aircraft on Monday late night in Syria, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Tuesday.”

“We have informed today our Israeli colleagues, and I have also informed personally the Israeli Defense Minister [Avigdor Lieberman], that such actions will not be left unanswered by us,” Shoigu said.

Inaction by Russia will invite ever more provocation. That is what was mooted, and so here we are. What Zog just did is both shocking, and absolutely expected in its treachery. Expect ever more, till Russia either gets out of Syria, or punches back.

A Russian no fly zone over Syria would be good. It will be probed once, and then never again.

Occasional Poster
Russia and Syria can always erect a no fly zone over Syria, but in a quiet, subtle way, without bragging about it. For example, if Israel launched an attack against a target in Syria and one or more of it’s planes were shot down, then it would have to explain what they were doing over the territory of a sovereign nation.

Or, a Russian military cargo ship arrives at the port on the Med. It unloads some crates. Does so in ways to keep what’s in the crates secret. Some trucks arrive, pull into a covered and well-guarded warehouse. Then they pull out, and drive to Damascus. Some buildings have already been erected. Nothing fancy, but metal sheds. Care was taken to to make it obvious that the roof on these slides back. Various trucks are leaving the port, some of them go to these buildings. The trucks drive into the building and the doors close.

At some point, Israeli planes fly into Syrian airspace. With no fanfare, the roofs on those buildings slide back and Syria fires off its brand new S-400 missile system. Surprise!

What about missiles fired from above the sea from beyond Lebanon’s territorial waters? The Israeli planes attacking Syria were beyond Syria’s territory. All Israeli planes in areas where they have misbehaved before should be shot down without notice.

your planes have been shot down, the Israelis show every intent of full scale attack awaiting ‘legit’ cause: the americans are behind them. what then..are you going to wait and be surprised?

no fly zone that’s what. so Putin does not want to stand up, he is afraid to rile up the Zionist fifth column in Russia..what the hell is he doing in Syria then for the mere fact he is in there riles them up..riled them up from the start. and very soon I swear, like PCR is confident of, there will be an in his face attack on Russia in Syria that Putin will have to deal with and no more tarrying with fifth columns etc. very soon indeed.

it looks like Israel is ready, and that can be only if it is confident its Russian fifth can hold Putin down..or that Putin himself is one of them and he is being forced to come out into the open on the side of Israel with attacks like this one.

PCR is absolutely right. Russia has massive cards in its favour to play and they are not being played. the west surely feels empowered vs Russia for their reasons and Putin will soon be forced to back up or back down, and reveal himself for whoever he is.

the Jewish people whoever they are are bent on taking the world for its own oyster. they will have to be defeated no two ways about that. it likely means the end of the human species today tomorrow or at whatever point the resolution of this Jewish endeavour takes place. it is either we give up to the Jews or fight them through whatever host(s) they happen to have invested on the day. so let the world blow then…humans don’t deserve to survive unless we actually do by deed and existential viability. and that is indeed the reality.

do humans want to survive and so work for survival in the obvious ways..or wish try to control the world for profit, elitism, with the corrupt compliance of fifth columns and greedy populations constantly dazzled by consumer products and glitzy life styles the price of which is eternal destruction of the human environment, of human health by bad medicine and pollution. is that the way the Russian people have become, driven by the Zionist media, and so support their fifth column to such an extent that Putin must moderate his nationalism in fear for his political career..maybe his life too?

if that is the case why fight Israel then, why even be in Syria? give it up, get out and go home to Russia and let the Zionist have their way in north west Africa. let them rape the people and salt the earth, destroy every country there including Turkey and Iran, the last 2 standing.

if Putin is not going to stand up on the truth in the situation then he should pull up stakes, cut his looses and go home, let the world flow is it may. looking strictly after Russians business which would then include as driving force.. what the Zionist want to do with Russia

here’s the rub. If Zog is defeated by Russia or whoever, and the majority population continue to be ignorant of who and what Zog was, and its satanic nature, then Zog will be back in no time.

Weakness provokes aggression, and ignorance leads quickly to enslavement; it’s just too easy for the predator.

To de-program most people from the crap they believe, is almost impossible. The lack of public support for, or even interest in Assange is telling. The 9/11 litmus test is also very telling. The masses still believe the 19 Arabs theory. ‘Never forget,’ – never forget what? That supposedly, Al Qaeda murdered 3,000 Americans, but now bygones are bygones and we are their allies in Syria? Is that never forgetting?

We have been told by brave men and women that vaccines are behind the autism epidemic, but we still vaccinate our kids, who we love, because we just do as we are told. I mean, maybe we should look into that, no? All those people you know who consider themselves very wise, shrewd, brave, feisty, independent, educated, and with a supernatural 6th sense, reveal themselves when they willingly hand over their toddlers to be injected. It’s all there folks; all their qualities amount to nothing in that one act, because the real nature of humanity is to be absolutely confused by life’s complexity, to abdicate thinking to the state, and needful of herd ‘safety.’

If we could defeat ZOG,he’d be back pretty quick. ZOG is here for a reason in the first place; ZOG assesses correctly that the vast majority of humanity is just dumb cattle to be herded and milked. Offer everybody cheap credit, and in two or three generations ZOG owns the world again.

Defeating Zog is one thing, but to keep him out, there’s the trick.

I guess one step at a time eh? And the lives of 15 Russian servicemen is a pretty important step.

end capitalism Occasional Poster, revolutionize society. thats is the answer, the Zionist monster could have grown and developed as it has only in exploitative society. the best chance humanity has is to revolutionize society crating cooperative society as we go. that will kill the zionist monster deprive it of hosts it can invest and drive to its purpose.
cooperative society kills corruption and bribery and sets out to create human security and general human development. Zog as you refer to the Zionist monster could not take root in Cuba, in Eritrea right now as far as I understand

we have arrived at the point where no more wiggle rom is available..humanity must make a choice..Capitalism of cooperative society. if capitalism prevails Zionism wins and the human species descends into Brave New World…this because what prevails is not really a capitalist win as capitalism dies as soon as we reach the point at which financial liquidity dies. exploitative society concentrates all the wealth in few hands. at the level of ownership now concentrated in the hands of the 1% there is no more capitalism.

the question is what to do with the people: sacrifice them in war, speed up Bill Gates – he has not been very effective in stopping population growth, increase the virulence of the bad medicine now peddled to the people?

Brave New World or some facsimile of it is their answer. it is going to be hell for the people any dam way,. hell for us. why should i be afraid of war..nuclear war when I am fully aware of what the Zionist is going to do to the human species when they have the global power in their hands?

this is not a guess or a speculation. we know how society evolves and the Zionist literally have no alternative but to enslave the human population and turn it into something they can handle forever. it is that or lose power and be held accountable for their crimes. and their crimes have been vast, total, incredible..cannot be judge literally on any grounds and measurement

and which humans will judge them..such as Theresa May and Tony Blair, the corrupt elites around the world in bed with the Zionists, the stupid dazzled populations every where supping full of Zionist poisons for the head body and soul?

only revolutionary populations would be right and proper to judge Zion..and as yet we have little of that..too little.

people like Putin with the opportunity and a half decent track record acting in the national interest of Russia can stand up to the Zionist Monster and read the riot act. for this crime agains the Russian people he must make Israel pay. and if Israel fights back, escalate escalate too. one thing is for sure, that Israel must understand right now is that they will be wiped from the earth no matter what damage they do, wiped, finish done. and Putin must demonstrate than now by blowing some Israeli military plane out of the sky..or blowing up a Zionist military base somewhere.

Putin must understand who he is dealing with. the fight between the world and the Zionists cannot avoided. or it can be avoided if the Zionists understand what they face right now by blowing their planes out of the sky. and at the same time a decisive Putin Move against the Russian fifth column. Popular or not Putin must have the case against those people that would stand in courts of law. then arrest them all ..NOW! put them in jail and try them before the courts as traitors. they are guilty they go to jail..not guilty they go free but never again to collude against the nation.

and all their treasonous assets must be taken away from them. the laws must be passed that begin to create the cooperative society..like eliminating media monopolies establishing size limits on media , financing and general support for all going into media to provide a diversity of voices informing the people..the utter removal of all penalty for telling the truth in the media, so that young people in particular can go out there and do their thing to the benefit of society as a whole

what the hell is Putin waiting for to do stuff like this..if he is a nationalist why is he tolerating a treacherous section of his population in secret collusion against his nation and people?

to say I am disappointed in Putin is to admit I have come to expect too much from him. he is human after all and came to power in a deal with the devil as far as I understand. I suspect the nature of that dal may be a hamstring around him now holding him back from truly nationalist activity. but Putin must go to the Russian people with a case against the Russian fifth, tell them the situation in all truth, comprehensively, and that he is going to arrest and try them all for treason.. he will be talking to the people while the arrests are being made or just after. arrest them all, kill the fifth column nonsense removing the dire threat they pose to the Russian nation.

this is how I see it OP.. no more wiggle room..the day of decision is upon us, we must act for survival or be enslaved. there is the risk or armageddon but so what, Individually we face armageddon every day..the risk of our own personal extinction. we take the risk successfully most of us. this is one we all must face and there is only one way out..ending the exploitative system by which we live that produces minority control and human enslavement, creating a world of democracy and human security as the desired result.. or die in the process

Well said. The saddest of all is Putin has been advocating a multi-polar world, while the submissiveness of Russia to the Zionist[state] is more than proven. He is damaging Russia, Her armed forces, and her allies as well.

Thank you for posting. Unfortunately, The level of confirmation bias and naïveté displayed by intelligent and otherwise knowledgeable people is what’s most disheartening. Our enemies, the enemies of mankind, have truly succeeded when we not only tolerate their duplicitous nature but actively seek to replicate their ideology and machinations. there will be no compromise to be found with people who have spent centuries committed to your extinction.

Regrettably, our friends fail to comprehend that while they wax poetically about “grand chessboards” and fairtales of a epic Germanic-Slavic partnership, hundreds of millions of innocents, suffer from birth to an early grave. Guess what guys and gals, the same cabal has been playing this “game” against Orthodox Christianity and the Slavs for centuries. Enough!

“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.” -MT (or some other WOKE bloke)

Often have imagined the many conversations had in Tesla’s lab. The exchange between these two brilliant minds.

No doubt the ZOG has been at it since the time of Babylon. But this “new” manifestation of ZOG are Turkic converts whose demonic offspring were definitely
not the original “chosen”. Together with the Vatican and their puppet kings , this unholy trinity, has unleashed untold evil upon the world.

I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the works of Baron Avro Manhattan. Born in Italy, of Jewish decent, he wrote over twenty books chronicling the Evils of the Vatican. In painstaking detail, he exposed their evil alliances and even accused the Zionists of capitalizing on the genocide of Orthodox Slavs.

Highly recommended reading, free online version:

1.). The Vatican’s Holocaust -The sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century

If Putin is really influenced by a 5th column in Russia then we already lost any hope for peace in Syria. How can he “stabilize” Idlib situation and then move to the East of Syria (USA/SDF) if he can’t do anything against zionist agenda?
Also, letting die more Russian people isn’t a way to get popularity between his voters..
honestly the Syrian game is turning in a Hell..
The last step of a permanent USA/NAto base in the East of Euphrate is more real than ever and we all know where is the last train stop: Iran..

A strong resolution is needed by Putin, where are Kgb secret services when needed?
Cut the head of the snake..

Mr Postadamus88
Mr Putin is “influenced” by no-one.
Put in some time studying him. Read his autobiography and the comments made about him by those who know him very very well.

Watch the documentary interviews with those who know him well.

Note down the years, repeated over and over, the comment
“you can’t argue with him – well, you can, but you better have really good arguments”.
“it’s really really hard to change his mind”
“he talks with everyone, but he makes his onw mind up, once he has, you will never change it”.
“Argue with him? No, never. I know him very well, I have for many years. He will never change his mind [from what he believes is right]”.

Again, when discussing how they would handle the massive structural improvements needed to make Vladivostok suitable to host the 2012 APEC summit. He wanted to build up Russky Island and build two massive new bridges. People kept saying “why.? we should just do so-and-so and it will be easier. “I said “Ok” he said, “but then I thought about it and went back and said “NO, we will do it as I originally proposed”.

Even his very first ever live “Direct Line to Putin” finished with one of the journalists who helped host it saying “thankyou for not listening to all those who tried to persuade you not to do this, that you insisted you would do it”.

You can’t have two people in one body.

You cant have a man who has forever been determined, clear headed, objective and absolute and very very stubborn, and has the confidence to take his own advice and do things as he wants and believes they must be done, suddenly turn around become “influenced by 5th columnists” or anyone else.
You cant be Alpha man today and Delta wimp tomorrow. It just doesn’t work that way.

President Putin just doesn work that way. He has his own style, his own way of doing things, but also of thinking and seeing the world.
He has chosen this path for a reason, and only careful observation down the months will make clear to us just what it was he was planning for and acting on.

Time has already told. Russia has a very strong partnership with Isr. and some kind of very limited agreement with Syria not a real full alliance or partnership like at the Cold War times. An agreement ruled by a strong country, Russia on a weak, poor wounded nation, Syria. What is happening is simply the result of this, so Russia is already deleting the shooting down of its Aircraft and allowing the next bombing of Syria.

Michel O
No, what you have written cannot be accepted. This was an Israeli provocation, and Putin has never been provoked. What should Putin do ? Attack Israel and end up with a nuclear confrontation with the US ? Putin has always applied subtle means.

Russia has an open and strong partnership with Isr. and an agreement to allow Isr. bombing targets in Syria.
This is not an interpretation but a matter of fact. This is Russia policy in that area and they seem fully accept the collateral damages.

Power has to be invisible to the masses, to consolidate and thrive. Let the kings and queens, and the politicians be guillotined or lynched; real power sits safely unseen. The cure is to shine a light on them, which is why their first line of defence everywhere, is total control of the media.

I’m sure that Game of Thrones has done well dramatising such themes, where many ostensible ‘rulers’ (metaphors for say, Putin), meet sudden grisly ends, while supposedly safe in the walls of their palace, their army standing dutifully and uselessly outside to protect him. Happens to US presidents too.

“According to the IDF, the Israeli jets were targeting a facility in Syria which contained “systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons” that could be sent “on behalf of Iran” to Hezbollah movement in Lebanon. Israel, as well as many other states, considers the movement a terrorist organization.”..

Perhaps Russian defence systems will now operate in conjunction with Syrian ones …as it appears that nothing defended Latakia from IDF and French Nato frigate clearly bent on illegal hostile intent….SAA alone defending by sending missiles over the sea to IDF jets themselves which seems to me to be further than before and rather than the missiles they sent……. I wonder if French Ambassador will be asked to attend MFA……..

I don’t believe in the power of “Fifth column” because Putin could rally the people.

But it’s wrong to lie and say:

“When people are dying – especially under such circumstances – it is always a tragedy,” President Putin said during a joint press conference with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban in Moscow on Tuesday.

Responding to a reporter’s question as to whether the incident in Latakia could be compared to the downing of the Russian Su-24 by Turkey in 2015, Putin said the two situations were “different.”

Ankara “deliberately downed” the Russian jet, he explained, while the Il-20 incident “looks like a chain of tragic circumstances, because the Israeli plane didn’t shoot down our jet.”

That’s complete bullshit. We all know it. He contradicts Soigu and his own M.O.D.

Speculation: he will put pressure on Bibi.

Speculation: he will do anything to avoid direct conflict.

Speculation: Israel will grow more arrogant. Further strikes in time.

However, Russia will improve defenses.

If he doesn’t implement a no fly zone for Israel, his behavior is suspect.

Right, it is possible that ishreal did it to reach Mr Putin, knowing that he would not retaliate, as they knew that this would weaken Mr Putin within Russia and abroad as a leader from whom we expect a reaction to the attack. I think that the situation is getting worse by the day… It is perhaps time to give a STOP to it…

Not just some, I suspect about 60-70% of the calls constantly pushing/pressuring Russia to act/do more come from propagandists hostile to the Russian Federation.I imagine this is in part to due to the desperation of the West and their need to hurry things along(a need Russia does not share), since they’re out of time.Plus, there maybe some hope of Russia taking unnecessary/meaningless actions, expending their energy/resources/wealth and collapsing like the Soviet Union.Other than attempting to weaken VVP inside Russia, I mean.

The Russians have been punched directly in the mouth by Israel. The arrogant terrorist state has the nerve to blame it on Syria, Hezbollah and Iran. Russia will respond. They will spit their teeth out and say it’s ok partners.

Ask Turkey about Russian responses to losing its planes. The Turks could tell a tale. A response does not have to be a missile barrage to have an impact.

Obviously, Putin and top officials met to discuss what leverage they might have over Turk. The reviewed numbers on trade, numbers on tourists. If I remember correctly, Russia hurt Turkey quite a bit by cutting its agricultural trade with Russia and by cutting tourists visiting and spending money. Hurt Turkey enough where after awhile Turkey was quite happy to make peace with Russia and get those restrictions lifted.

What are some ways Israel is vulnerable to leverage? It won’t be the same as Turkey, but can leverage be applied to Israel?

I’ve been thinking for some time that everytime the US cuts aid to the Palestinians, someone should step in and replace that aid and double it. I was thinking China, since they’ve got the economy that makes money in large volumes. The amounts are not huge. The US was only spending the cost of a couple of F-35s in aid to the Palestinians. So, Trump makes a big announcement at how he’s pressuring the Palestinians by cutting a couple of hundred million in aid. The next day, Russia announces new aid to the Palestinians of double the amount that was just cut. Or maybe gets China to pitch in.

Reaffirming Russia’s clear stances on the right of return for Palestinian refugees could give a poke to Netanyahu. I’m sure the Russians have been clear in the past about the status of Jerusalem, but it wouldn’t be wrong to state that again very clearly.

America has abandoned its role as peace broker between the Israelis and the Palestinians. If Russia kept showing signs of support and aid to the Palestinians, I suspect the Palestinians would be happy to bring Russia into negotiations to replace the Americans.

People have for decades been trying to send aid ships to Gaza to break the illegal Israeli blockage. The UN is now issuing dire warnings about the near future in a Gaza under an inhumane siege. A couple of large miltary cargo ships leave Black sea ports. Nothing unusual there. They pick up escorts, either in the Black Sea or from ships in the Med.

But, this time they don’t sail to Syria. Instead, they head to Gaza. Now Israel is faced with Russian cargo ships escorted by Russian military ships with Russian planes from the Syrian base flying overhead as air cover. Russia expresses it has a Responsibility to Protect the people of Gaza who are facing humanitarian disaster, so Russia is responding with a humanitarian convoy bringing food, medicine, fuel, generators etc.

Netanyahu tries to call Putin to complain. The voice in Putin’s office says that the call is being connected to the President. Instead, Netanyahu hears the new ‘hold music’ which is a recording of the memorial service for the people on the plane last night. Netanyahu seems a bit dense in the head, but I suspect even he would eventually get the message.

I don’t think Russian officials would have a hard time finding various points of leverage that Israel would find to be uncomfortable.

The above are just a few quick ideas. Perhaps they are practical, perhaps not? But I’m rather sure that Russian staff could put some people on the job and come up with a few ways to make sure that Bibi knows that he’s created a very angry bear.

There is a Christian parable that most of us have heard, that of the good Samaritan. I understand that Russian Orthodoxy has a different version. It is the parable of the timidly prudent Samaritan. This version is much loved by Saker. To each his own.

Correct Assessment that there are powerful 5th column(s) in Russia. Would be a huge surprise if Russia does anything. I kind of think that this could be partly a punishment for Russia to cut a deal with Turkey in Idlib, by one of the oligarchic powers. Syria is defacto divided in three as we speak. This agreement made sure that Turkey and Russia owns Idlib (north of Syria), while US-Israel owns east of Euphrates. There are rumors that France was sending some missiles in that direction (from Russian MoD). France is City of London and they are not particularly happy with what is going on in Syria after Obama. I think there are more than meets the eye or what official statements are saying. Could be another provocation, as with no military operation in Idlib, the fake gas attack is out of the door at this moment. Definitely not a minor event or an innocent mistake. Could also be forcing Putin to choose sides in between competing oligarchic powers. Need to wait more and see further developments.

I don’t believe it’s “5th columns” Putin is scared of. He is worried, and rightly so, of getting embroiled in WW3. Russia has a big punch, but potential war with the USA and NATO is a disaster for Russia. That’s plainly what the risk is here, and Israel knows it.

IIRC, the term “5th Column” originated during the American Civil War. It was used to describe the Democrats of those days, who were the pro-slavery party who worked against Lincoln’s attempts to restore the Union to the full borders of the nation.

Ausmythe, you are absolutely correct. Russia is trying to create a multi-polar world without getting involved in WWIII. Which at best would completely destroy all of the ME, probably most of Europe and much of Russia and US before it could be stopped. If it could be stopped.

I know everyone wants Russia to punch back. I have those feelings also. But Russia is taking the patient and prudent road. She is letting the Anglo-Zionist expose themselves to the World for who they really are and showing the World, despite the Russia hating press, that it is Russia that is the peace maker and leader of a Multi-polar world. The Saker and other Russian experts have said on several occasions that the Soviets tried to keep the western press from their people and that Putin lets Russian press just play western press uncensored. Genius! No one does a better job of showing our shear evilness than we ourselves.

And as the song goes “I’m ashamed to be an American where I know for sure I’m not free”. I think my lyrics are more accurate. And BTW, I don’t expect the Russians to have to clean up our mess. At least not alone.

Thanks for your insights. If Lee Greenwood had been truly that honest in “God bless the USA” he never would have achieved any level of fame, he would have been blacklisted for sure. Sadly, the masses appear to love the bizarre illusion and the sensational lie more than the plain truth. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said “God bless the whole world–No Exceptions. What a great sentiment!

I know our crying out for peace, our prayers for peace are being answered, and often this happens in ways that people who want quick revenge will have a difficult time understanding. “His ways are definitely not our ways” . Is Russia a “New Testament” nation that seeks to more fully understand and implement this principle? Peace to you.

That Israel not only violates Syria’s sovereignty but also violated Russia-Israeli agreements. In diplomatic language it means–no fly zone most likely. It also means, most likely, a dramatic change in ROE and new Russian-manned S-30PMU or S-400. I don’t think Syrians are ready yet for a technology that complex. Of course, in coming days we will learn more but the initial set up, so to speak, is kinda emerging already now.
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*Yet another interesting article => The Shoot Down of the Russian IL-20: Who’s Responsible?http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/09/the-shoot-down-of-the-russian-il-20-whos-responsible.html
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All of the facts have yet to be known but the Russian Defense Ministry has little doubt: the Israelis created the conditions by which Syrian air defenses took down a Russian Il-20 electronic intelligence aircraft in the midst of an Israeli air strike on a Syrian Arab Army facility in Latakia between 10 PM and 11 PM local time Monday night.
…

You are absolutely right. Putin and his team are doing everything in their power to avoid a confrontation that would lead to WW3. His message is…dont push us too far and if you attack Russia we will retaliate.

This whole thing is an immense provocation, pure and simple. VVP is not going to let them make him react in a way that will give them any excuse whatsoever to pull a ‘dog pile on the rabbit’ moment. He will chose the time of his retaliation to do the maximum damage with minimum risk to Motherland. Patience is a virtue, and VVP knows this very well.

In my opinion, the future of both Israel and USA are a bit cloudy of the moment, and only time will reveal what the clouds are hiding.

Auslander
Author

Sevastopol, The Third Defense. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079KRPLS4 Book 1, A Premonition, The Move South. Set against a backdrop of real events and real places, the reader is left to filter fact from fiction.

Auslander
I fully agree with you. Yes, it was a provocation after Putin met Erdogan. Netanyahu was hoping to set up Russia against the US, hoping Russia would retaliate against Israel, which would then scream for US help. Israel pulled a similar trick back in 1967, during the Six Day War, when it attacked the US reconnaissance ship USS Liberty, almost sinking it. It hoped to frame Egypt for the attack, bringing the US on it’s side. It didn’t work, but a heap of US sailors were killed and wounded.

What was the USS Liberty doing there? It had sailed directly from America to the Med, ergo it was a ‘Sacrificial Offering’ in the most heinous manner. It wasn’t the Israelis that set up the Liberty, but rather another Jew.

What you never hear about are the planes from the 6th Fleet that were recalled from their flight to Cairo, where they were to bomb the Egyptians for the sinking of the Liberty even before the Israelis had completed their part of the deal, Do you understand this?

The aircraft carrying those nuclear bombs were not permitted to land on an aircraft carrier and so had to land at Malta. That puts a different slant on the actions of Admirals Kidd and McCain as well as McNamara and Johnston.

In this latest attack by Israel, there are several questions to be asked and answered, and do not worry about VV Putin; the Israelis will now have to answer to General Shoigu, and he is a completely different person to Putin.

Questions such as who were on board the targeted aircraft? Why was it chosen as a target to induce the required provocation? Was this a response by Netanyahu for his humiliation in the Victory Day Parade in regard to ‘Georgia’?

To be able to create the scenario where the II-20 was trapped, I would imagine would take precision timing and prior knowledge. Come on; it wasn’t coincidental, this was a well planned event, but the Israelis don’t have to worry about Putin, as it will be Shoigu who will reply to this incident.

I agree with your brief assessment. It was a provocation. The israelis withheld notification to the Russian till 1 minute before so they could use the Russian aircraft’s presence in their attack. Also withholding notification was to prevent Russia warning the Syrians so they would have less time to respond.

As with all these provocations, the zionazi-gay goal isn’t the immediate target or damage they can do, but in eliciting a response they can use to ramp up their war against Syria into a full scale conflict like they initiated against Afghanistan and Iraq.

Israel wanted the F-UK-US attack that was obviously going to follow a Russian/Syrian attack on the terrorists. Israel has in the past tried to escalate and spark a wider war. Netanyahu really, really wants a war with Iran, and this has been obvious for years. Back in April, when Trump was sending out tweets but otherwise seemed to be slow in attacking Syria, Israel launched its own attack on a Syrian airbase.

This appears to have been another ploy along the same lines. Bibi had gotten the bad news that he wasn’t going to get his missile strike on Syria. This was his desperate attempt to try to spark the bigger war that he desperately needs and that Bibi has been corruptly paid to deliver. I’d guess Bibi was hoping for an immediate attack back in response to the shooting down of the Russian plane.

I doubt that this is about the inconveniencing a pawn on the board like the White Helmets. Its about Bibi’s bigger plans to launch a disasterous Sunni-v-Shia religious war which would be highly likely to escalate into WW3 and kill us all.

If he’s talking to me, he is talking to someone in Sevastopol. Mark, me lad, so it’s f*** all, eh. Here’s a little something for your enjoyment. I’m just in from my one an hour smoke on our balcony. Nothing but peace and quiet here, only sound I could here was my dogs snoring as they enjoy the late summer night.

Nope, I smoke one light cigarette an hour, sometimes, actually often, less. Wife and I already did our early evening wine and whine session, dogs are fed and walked, the silence in this little valley is deafening. Wife is sitting here with me while we monitor Saker and enjoy a glass or two of Inkerman Kagor, my blue girl Sophia is snoring at our feet. Don’t get much better than this.

Wonderful – yet it makes me sad to think that you described the way we all should enjoy our short visit in this Galaxy, yet there are evil people out there that don’t want us to have any of this, all they want is to destroy this style of life because they think by doing so, it will give more to them……..

Revenge is a dish best served cold, VVP is doing the right thing in this situation, the more the empire thinks that Russia is weak the more they get arrogant and cocky. Let nuttyahoo think that this will blow over soon and when his guard is down hit him hard where it hurts the most. This thing is far from over, let’s see how it will play out. On the side note, the USA did not participate which is very strange

Agree.
Where will it hurt Israel/Netanyahu the most?
This is fun to think about.
It seems to me that anything that majorly challenges or damages the Zionists’ narrative about their identity and their right steal a country from the occupants is the biggest damage one can do to Israel.

Bring another S-400 to cover all of Syria in the East and Iraq border region.

Fill in with a dozen more Pantsir-S2s.

Declare a NO FLY/ADIZ over all of Syria and Lebanon.

Have the Chinese bring some air power. Now that they have “exercised” with the Russians in Vostok 2018 and the Chinese are about to operate Haifa port, they have an interest and are stakeholders in both Israel and Syria.

Russia should void the recent agreement with Israel and re-allow the Iranian manpower. Iran is a populous country with a lot of manpower to spare, and it is needed to counter all the western backed terrorist-fighters from scores of foreign countries. What good are agreements with an aggressive side that continually violates Syria’s sovereignty?
I do not like Russia making agreements with the enemies of Syria. Israel and Turkey, as well as NATO countries, cannot be trusted.

A quick search found this from the end of July, which seems recent to me.

“TEHRAN (FNA)- Russian Ambassador to Tehran Levan Djagaryan underlined that Iranian military advisors are in Syria as demanded by the Damascus government in order to help that country fight terrorist groups.

“Iran’s presence in Syria, similar to that of Russian military forces, is upon a request by Damascus to contribute to fighting terrorism,” Djagaryan said.”

and

“In relevant remarks earlier in July, Iranian Supreme Leader’s top aide for international affairs and President Rouhani’s special envoy Ali Akbar Velayati underlined that Tehran and Moscow will keep up providing support for the Syrian government and people in their ongoing fight against the terrorist groups.

“Iran and Russia’s presence in Syria will continue to protect the country against terrorist groups and America’s aggression,” Velayati said.”

Meetings with Bibi, IDF and Mossad chiefs in Moscow.
De-confliction agreements between MOD and IDF.
It’s not a treaty. It’s a formal military to military agreement in detail with all facets explicitly arranged and signed onto. Just like the US and Russia have had for years in Syria.

The Israelis have made many trips to Moscow to assure themselves that the S-300 would not be given to Syria and that the Russian S-400 would not be turned on the IDF planes, and that Israel can stand off over Lebanon and fire its missiles and guided bombs at “Iranian assets in Syria”. That was all agreed to by Russia and Israel.

It’s probably worth mentioning that the *only* reason to *ever* enter into agreements, accords, etc., with the Israelis/Jews is if such agreements are to be leveraged for use within the geopolitical public relations realm, as it is an absolute certainty that they will invoke the Kol Nidre the second you walk away from the brokering table, thus absolving themselves of any responsibility in honoring those agreements… as is *always* the case. One cannot make deals with the devil, and I am not speaking strictly in metaphorical terms, either, when I say that.

Larch and the others. Let me repeat myself China will not get involved unless attacked.
You are expressing your living in the dreamland. Whatever exists between Russia and China is not a military alliance, where “article 5” draws everyone in to the conflict. Besides, Russia knows that when the chips fall it can only count on itself. Hence the restraint.
The other ones who only see Russia’s weakness: rest assured, if and when the time comes, which will be of Russia’s choosing, Russia will react with devastating force. All the smart a$$es won’t know what hit them, when it hits them.

I have been the most consistent on indicating China was not in Syria nor coming.
All I have said now above is that it would be good if they recognize the timing for them is ideal. Especially for the stakes they hold and the asymmetrical blow it would be against the US who is messing with them in Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong and especially Taiwan, the South China Sea and blaming them for North Korea.

They ran from Iraq, they ran from Libya, they have run from Syria, but they stick their nose and money in Venezuela. Strange.

Syria is where the world order will change. Putin should encourage them. Which is the intent and wording of my comment about them.

I think post the Vostok exercises their military is primed for action. They could completely topple the West in Syria by joining the Syrian alliance along with Iran, a very important supplier of oil for them. Russia and China already have defied the US over new Iranian sanctions. So this makes great sense to present the West with a PLA presence-in-force.

Talking about SuperPowers–it’s big boy time for Beijing. Will they chicken out and rationalize it as usual?
Peace is made through military realities. The PLA needs to play its role where so much of what China needs as energy and so large a market to sell their products needs peace.

Yes, Israeli F-16’s used the four engine reconnaissance aircraft to hide from Syrian radar, and old trick, used before. The Syrians therefore shot down the Russian plane by mistake, as images of the smaller Israeli planes were obscured by the larger image of the Russian plane on Syrian radar.

I have to disagree with The Saker that Russia will not respond against Israel because of the “powerful” pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia. Is it really that powerful, bearing in mind Russians cannot forget the Yeltsin years ? And what can this Zionist 5th column do overtly in Russia, if it wanted to do anything ?

This was an Israeli provocation, instigated after Putin met with Erdogan. Yes, some sort of deal was reached regarding Idlib, but I don’t see this deal lasting too long. It suits neither the US nor Israel, especially when both, in conjunction with others, were preparing a new false flag attack against Assad. In fact this deal suites nobody.

Yes, Russia will respond, but in a subtle way. Israel would just love Russia to respond “aggressively”, so that it could then scream for American help, and thus setting up Russia against the US. It is in the US that Israel has it’s Zionist Occupation Government, not in Russia. If it did have such a government in Russia, then Russia would never have recovered as it did during Putin’s years.

jiri
“The Israelis have been very clever”. In what way ? By informing Russia less than one minute that they were going to attack ? When did Russia agree that Israel could use Russian reconnaissance aircraft as a cover to launch attacks against Syria ?

B.F., I agree. The agreement between Mr Putin and Mr Erdogan, just two days ago, could have been the reason for the israli ‘plot’ against the Russian military plane. We know that the agreement may have delayed a war; this may prove it to be true.

I am a devout fan of Putin and his wisdom/strategy, but I’m starting to reconsider and frankly tired of seeing Russia taking so many punches from sanctions, Israeli incurssions and direct military threats and not sending a strong message to the aggressors. If the lifes of 15 Russian military are not important enough for Putin or Shoigu to act and take active meassures to secure airspace around Syria or a direct retaliation to honor their lifes, I’m afraid even the most loyal Putin supporters are going to have a difficult time stomaching these events or his lack of decisive and swift action in the matter.

Andre
You are mistaken in your reasoning. How many provocations has Putin endured so far ? He responded in a wise, subtle way. Yes, sanctions were introduced against Russia. For Russia this was the best thing that could have happened to it, as It concentrated on rebuilding it’s infrastructure, industry and agriculture and producing record harvests. Putin is making patient and intelligent chess moves of the chess board. He will not fall for cheap provocations, which have caused both Israel and the US immense political and media damage. What Israel did was a provocation, provoking Russia into taking aggressive action against it. It did not work. However, Israel better not pull this trick again.

I usually like your posts BF, but ‘Israel better not pull this trick again,’ is really going to stop them laughing their butts off, and slapping each other on the back in Tel Aviv.

And the converse in the Russian military; I can’t think of a better way to crush their morale than to let this pass. They will be angry, and wonder for whom they are actually putting their lives on the line, and why.

Occasional Poster
You have a point. The Russian military are going to be very angry about this incident. They would love a response. So would Israel. After that Israel would scream for US help, backed by it’s huge lobby in the US. However, as I have already written, Putin will not fall for such provocations.

I agree with you 110 percent. Everybody who has ever been beaten up by a playground bully knows that the bullying never stops and in fact keeps getting worse until the bully is punched in the face. My love and condolences to the families of the lost Russian servicemen.

Putin will not put at risk the project of ensuring Russia’s new place in the world. Not even for 15 lives.

The overall project and maintaining course takes priority. This is why Putin has to play the game of trying to avoid direct war with the Americans and their vassal states – regardless of the provocations.

The ZATO gargoyles that Russia has to deal with, are masters of brinkmanship, and ultimately, safe behind their own nuclear shield. They will keep pushing till they encounter something that actually changes the game.

Putin and the Security Council have probably discussed the predictable losses of a thousand in Syria for the first several years, and a similar number of Russian volunteers (North Wind) in Donbass.

As for Donbass, the annual totals since Minsk 2 is acceptable, though demoralizes the Militia, so when war really starts, more Russians troops will be volunteered if not directly used. We know the government has discussed and approved the complete destruction of the APU/ATO forces. (That’s 75,000-100,000 Ukies). The task will be a few days to destroy all their armor, artillery and command structure, and logistical bases and supply lines. Then disarming and filtering them back to Western Ukraine will take a week or two. I expect the Russians have signaled with recent exercises and movements that they are prepared to send 350,000 troops into East Ukraine to destroy the Ukies. They will then call for UN to send into Ukraine, not Donbass, a large force to buffer the Donbass from Ukies. In essence, Kiev will fall and become a UN protectorate.

As the boxer said, “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. I think Israel needs a punch in the mouth–I’m not saying a bullet to the head. Let them scream. So what? Remember that fear is a bad conselor.

Well, if you were in Putin’s shoes, do you think you would deem it prudent to allow yourself to be potentially drawn into another World War? A war which the opposition seems clearly hell-bent on instigating? And, a war which would likely cost MILLIONS — and very possibly BILLIONS — of lives, instead of those 100 or 1000 you speak of?

If such a war is averted, then those Russian airmen did not die in vain; quite the opposite in fact. If it is NOT averted, then we have failed them, ourselves, and the entire World, by allowing ourselves to be baited into it. We must not allow our critical reasoning abilities to be overcome by our emotions in times like this. That is EXACTLY what they are banking on us doing. It happens every time, it seems. We must not keep making these mistakes. And, this time, the entire World, quite literally, hangs in the balance.

don’t you watch movies; it’s the ‘Rocky/Ali’ rope the dopes, cause they are too stupid to notice the rope gets ever shorter. Russia is playing the long game, the illegal occupiers of Palaestine are cornered and fearful, their prospects look worse every day, no shortage of Russian Jews emigrating from Palestine to Canada…………the clever ones, at least!

Waly
Yes, they are all hoping Russia will strike back and be pronounced the “aggressor”. After that the MSM will apply full thrust, with more anti-Russian propaganda, this time accusing Russia of attacking little Israel. Putin will not fall for such cheap provocations. However, what will happen will be a subtle response. Next time Israel attacks Syria over Syrian territory, it’s planes will start falling over Syrian territory, something it will need to explain. So far it has attacked Syria either firing missiles from Israel, or from Lebanon, using both to protect it’s aircraft. Occasionally it has gone in depth over Syrian territory. I have a feeling that rules of engagement are now going to be changed.

Agree, good point. Trap it is.
Problem is, Russian soldiers are paying the price for Putin’s art of the war exercise.
What bugs me is the fact that this war reveals itself as a trading post, where, one party can afford to hurt another for as long as the other party is willing to pay the price hoping they will meet their goals … It is sick.
What is the point in trying to maneuver within the UN / international law if no one follows it? It is absurd.
It breaks my heart to hear such cowardly crimes are branded with “tragic circumstances“.

My deepest condolences to fallen soldiers families. May they rest in peace.

Putin was suckered in playground language and if he does not respond appropriately ( one must call the players out and name the game for what it is) he will then be punked. And then he will be everbody’s B-tch.

The Russians along with their allies, Syria, Iran and Hezbollah are fighting the takfiris in Syria.

The Israelis are supporting some of the takfiris by providing them with war material, medical support and air cover including bombing Russian allies.

The Russians have an agreement with the Israelis that it is OK for them to bomb Russian allies as long as Russians men and material are not hit. The Israelis will just have to inform the Russians so that the Russians can get out of the way, and presumably not tell the Syrians or Hezbollah or Iranians that they are going to be hit by the Israelis.

The Russians tell the Syrians (and the Iranians and Hezbollah??) that it is OK for them to retalliate against Israel by shooting at their planes or missiles with an air defense system that is integrated with the Russian air defense system. This only makes sense if the Russians want the Syrians to fire at the Israelis but not hit them.

With such an arrangement is it any surprise that the Russians lost a plane? I would say it was only a matter of time before it happened.

As RT reports, President Putin has characterized this event as resulting from “tragic circumstances”.
1) Would not such a view appear to contradict that expressed within the MoD representations?
2) If 1 is true, will there not arise a deleterious effect on the credibility of the President, the military, or both?
3) If 2 is true, for hostile media purposes, is there not apparent incoherence, or at least inconsistency, within the overall “Russian” position (which would be a novel, highly exploitable weakness)?
4) If 3 is true (asking of those who understand the Russian people), what might be the effect on “civilian” Russian thinking, feeling, and attitudes?

To answer your last question, I can speak only for myself: if Putin can’t do anything with regards to this latests slap in his face by his ‘partner’ (who was there on 9th May to celebrate my ancestors victory), I withdraw all support for him. Why do we have to put up with everything that’s thrown out way, if we can’t win, or now most likely not willing to win anyway?!

Anonymous
And what would you like Putin to do ? Attack Israel, which would then scream for US help ? When you fight a war, the intention is to win the war, not battles. Strategy comes first in importance, tactics come second.

BF
Not talking about attacking Israel here.
To start – Deliver S300, S400 to Syria asap. This should minimise potential repeat of last nights events.
Enforce no-fly zone and aid Syrian forces to get better in what they doing, potentially operating defences together to start with.
But if the response is what I heard today, then submit to Zionism, and let us adapt to the realities and find our way within. Because he clearly doesn’t want to do anything or simply can’t. Why do I have to be subjected to humiliation all the time for being Russian? Why my nephew (soon approaching military service age) would have to take part in this madness? What for? So that Putin can keep on turning the other cheek?! Thanks, but no thanks! Not worth it.
What’s astonishing is how many ‘supporters’ he has among Saker community abroad, most of the Westerners commenting and discussing what Putin and Russians should do from the comfort of the Zionist protectorates, and no one is fighting it, no one! But Russians are expected to?!

“No one is fighting it” is a very broad statement (and an incorrect statement). BTW, simply adding an air defense radar that overlooks Lebanon and the sea would be a great 1st step so the Russian/Syrian air defense system would have more than the 1-minute warning that Israel supposedly gave the Russians.

What would I like Putin to do, Anonymous?
Protect his servicemen.
Break off diplomatic relations with Israel.
Cut off all transport links by planes and ships with Israel.
Supply Syria with modern air defence instead of 50 year old museum piece S200s.
Cut off trade with Israel – hit them in the wallet.

What do you think America would do if Russia had just killed 15 US servicemen???

Mark
Sorry, you are right, Palestinians are kinda resisting. Iran makes its position clear. Who else? Who did I miss? Any significant of resistance elsewhere? More or less all of Western world gave in and is living comfortably. A tiny voice of resistance in the UK by Jeremy Corbyn is shut down by much louder and a lot more powerful voice of Zionism … so yes, I’m wrong, there is evidence of pathetic fight attempts in the West too. But majority of the western world lives comfortably within it…

You can also ask what would the US do if Israel killed 15 of their service man?
Yep nothing!
So it’s a small tiny fraction of our planet _ the gods chosen people_ a few million of them and they create 99 % of the wars since centuries and
Piss on our heads
When does this planet wake up and piss on Pissrael?

Possibly far from ‘zip’. On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked USS Liberty, killing 34 crew members and injuring 173. In January 1968, an Israeli submarine was lost with all its 69-man crew…https://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/31/world/the-lost-sub-is-found-and-israelis-can-grieve.html
“…the Dakar, a British submarine newly refurbished for the Israeli Navy, disappeared in the midst of its maiden voyage, from England to Haifa. … In January 1968, an Israeli crew set out from Portsmouth, England, in their new submarine, a World War II-era vessel purchased from the British and refurbished. Just off Crete, the ship sent what would be its final message to shore … the Dakar was found 300 miles west of Israel – precisely on its original course.”

What would have happened if Russia, immediately sent some 15 Kaliber missiles (same number as its dead soldiers) on the military israeli base harboring those F16s, would the US start a world war? Now what if by the same occasion they have sank that french ship, and let’s say another 15 kalibers on that Tanf US base?

The message would be clear The lives of our soldiers are not cheaper than yours.

As for now, russians are falling like flies, many special ops killed when the syrian army were bombed, 200 mercenaries last time, daily attacks on Khmeimim air base, daily insults from the british, the french, the poles, the ukrainians, the latvians, the estonians…

“What would have happened if Russia, immediately sent some 15 Kaliber missiles (same number as its dead soldiers) on the military israeli base harboring those F16s, would the US start a world war?”

In that case, the question would not have been whether the US would start a world war, but whether Israel would endeavour to terminate or at least critically weaken the Russian expeditionary corps in Syria. And the answer is pretty easy to guess.

Remember, as the Saker himself has frequently repeated, that the Russian force in Syria is relatively small. There is little doubt that Israel could incapacitate it if they really wanted so. They would pay a cost – significant losses – but they would succeed.

As for attacking at the same time Israel, France and America, that would mean war against three countries at the same time.

What if Putin is part of the 5th column? I hope I am not wrong but as far as I can remember he first visited Israel after his second last election. And we all know what happened after his last election.

Perhaps Putin is smarter than Trump and won’t announce his moves via Twitter or a press conference in advance.

The old Star Trek line comes to mind. “Revenge is a dish best served cold.” Just because someone isn’t ranting and raving like one of Trump’s WWE wrestlers in pre-match hype mode, that doesn’t mean there won’t be a response.

Putin’s reputation is that of the martial arts master who doesn’t do what what his opponent expects and most certainly does not take action at the time the opponent wants him to act. But only a fool would think of a patient martial arts master as being weak and spineless.

I do not understand why we even warn the Russians if we are going to bomb them? Makes no sense, We should bomb the s-400 sites and the airfields they have. We could rearm the idlib rebels and send them on an attack on Latakia while Israel, US, France, and UK all strike Russian AD. We should get these guys out of this region. We should help Ukraine as well, their economy doing well with US dollars and also cleanse the Donbass of them. Then do the good ol regime change on em. We toppled all their allies at this point, Turks stronger but they still in Nato so we are doing a pretty good job and managing and organizing global governance I think.

“We should bomb the s-400 sites and the airfields they have.” Now there is a death wish for you. Let’s overtly trigger WW 3. The US and Israel and do everything they can to suck Russia into committimg an obvious act of aggression against them, so they can be blamed for starting the fireworks, and this time with clear evidence that it is so.

The US and Israel are committing their aggression in such a way that they can plausibly deny that they intended it – it was an acident, they say. They will continue to there provocations until they draw the desired response from Russia, or Syria.

Basically, the Russians should declare the any future Israeli illegal aggression will be considered an act of war, and will be met with force against the Israeli source of that aggression, be it based on land, sea or in the air.

A powerful American faction that supports Israel is the Evangelicals that are a part of the Republican Party. They don’t support Israel because they love Israel. They support Israel because the believe that a resurgent Israel regaining power in the region is one of the signs in Revelations that Armageddon is coming soon. This group is so desperate for the mass murder of billions of human lives that they support Israel to make it come sooner.

In other words, for many of the American supporters of Israel, WW3 and nuclear war is exactly what they want and pray for every day.

I’m kinda curious how they plan on explaining to Jesus and St. Peter how they spent their lives working and praying for the deaths of billions of people, many of which who will die slow, painful, suffering deaths. I’m not so sure Jesus is going to be so happy with them for wanting that. And St. Peter will likely be a bit irked at being overworked with that long line of a several billions souls who all show up together and are waiting to be processed by old St. Pete. But this is the Evangelicals’ vision that they constantly pray for.

I guess I’ll find out some day how Jesus really feels about all of this. But I’m not looking forward to standing in an incredibly long line with another billion souls. Then again, I do remember good times in all-night lines to get concert tickets back in the day, so maybe we’ll all have some fun together waiting in line and I’ll make a few new friends.

it is time for putin to retire for massive incompetent leadership.
no more excuse. the Russian military is a laughing
miserable joke. history will record for centuries to come,
the most sophisticated missile technology with the most coward
of cowards of leadership. young Russians are being killed off systematically ,
and there is always an excuse for it . the stupidest death of any human ,
is to die for nothing !!!. they may as well commit collective suicide , the anglozionist
satanic spirits will celebrate it as a greatest day in history.

“Israel is unlikely to freely use Syrian airspace in the wake of the crash of a Russian Il-20 military aircraft over the Mediterranean Sea, Yakov Kedmi, a former high-ranking Israeli intelligence official, told Sputnik.

“There was an agreement between Israel and Russia that the actions of Israel in Syria’s airspace would not endanger lives of Russian troops. Israel breached this commitment… What happens next will depend on the position of Israel. Most likely, Israel will no longer be able to enjoy the same freedom in the sky of Syria as it did before the incident,” Kedmi said.

The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) earlier in the day that Israel would share all information on the incident with Moscow. The IDF expressed regret over the deaths of the Russian troops and put the blame on Damascus and Tehran.

“Israel’s attack in itself, regardless of the consequences, was an irresponsible step, because there is not a single facility on the territory of Syria that might have been used by Iran and whose destruction would have justified an attack on it, which could endanger the Russian troops,” Kedmi said.”

“Israel unlikely to fly freely over Syria”… is a bunch of B.S. Israel doesn’t need to “overfly” Syria to attack it. Just shoot missiles from 1) above Lebanon, or 2) above the Mediterranean or 3) directly from Israel itself. “Unlikely to overfly Syria” is more Israeli bullshit.

More likely what will happen is that the next Israeli attack will be met by the Syrian military with a barrage of missiles coordinated by the Russians, resulting in the shootdown of one or more Israeli aircraft. The Israelis will know who was behind it and will be forced to reconsider their attacks on “Iranians” in Syria.

Russia can do this because it has surveillance aircraft up – this one will be replaced and escorted by fighters next time – and it will know when Israel launches all its aircraft. Israel doesn’t have to “inform Russia” because Russia already knows when and where Israeli aircraft are in the vicinity – unless Israel can somehow “cloak” their approach.

In other words, this conflict between Russia and Israel will be managed “sub rosa” and not be allowed to disturb the “cordial” relations between the two countries. Sometimes military matters have to be subordinate to diplomatic relations.

Until today, it was not Russia’s loss. It was Iran’s losses and some Syrian loss.
Now, Russia has lost. Thus, everything is changed.

We should see S-300 in Syria soon.

And more S-400s.
Maybe a few dedicated fighter jets that can clean the skies of intruders. Su-35s would be dedicated just to keep the coastal zones clear. Send 8 dedicated to that task. And a tanker plane or two to keep them up for long missions.

Adding to my comment below, the IL-20 EW plane was fairly specialized and cannot be replaced often. For this reason, I consider the deliberate provocation of its downing as an official declaration of war against Russia.

Real bad look for Putin today. One can make up all sorts of hypotheses about his subtle diplomacy and long game, but his statement today was that Israeli lives are worth more than Russian lives and he will not protect Russian soldiers in Syria against Israeli attacks. He might as well throw in the towel on the entire Syria project and go home. It seems PCR may be correct after all. All we see is turning the cheek and today asking my I please have another? Monumental weakness to kowtow to Netanyahu publicly like that. Even in the “soft” martial arts of judo/aikido a practitioner will resort to atemi, or striking techniques, to unbalance an opponent. Sometimes you cannot wait for the opening, but have to create one. All I’m seeing with Putin is waiting, waiting, waiting, and taking dirty blows in the process. Israel is like any other bully–once they get punched in the face they will fold, but you have to actually punch back. Hard. Anyway, good luck to everyone in Syria now that Russia has folded…..

It just goes to show how prophetic PCR’s words are. He warned that the provocations and pressure would continue and get worse until Russia either capitulated or hit back. What I do not understand is what did Putin expect after Russia pulled Assad’s chestnuts out the fire? APPEASEMENT never has and never will work. I understand both Martynov’s and Saker’s points on this but, again, PCR is correct. This will get to a point were Russia either lays down the law with concrete actions or has to surrender. I see no other options in the long term, though short term Putin could keep trying to play the game, as the Neo-Con West will keep doubling down.

When your responsibility is 147 million lives and the continuity of your Motherland forever, you don’t go to war so easily.

Statesman leaders like Putin have a thousand stages before war. They also really understand war. Russia is still suffering from the losses of mankind in WWII.

So, though he would love to take the scalps of a few responsible for this attack, he will do what is wise. Wisdom is called for and Putin knows that he must steer away from the war he cannot win to the path upon which Victory awaits.

Israel is going to lose and lose big. It is an inevitability. That is what they understand and why they act so desperately.

Putin and the military will deal with Israel. In their own way.

This is not a “western movie story”. It’s a geopolitical struggle for regional hegemony and SuperPower clout.
Israel has lost any chance of both. All she can do is continue to be a terrorist state.

Larchmonter445 I really appreciate your comment. So even keel. Everybody is angry about this and they all want to sacrifice more Russian lives to avenge it. I can’t even read the comment sections the last few days. Makes me nauseous. Thanks for the level-headed perspective.

PCR understands human beings, how we come up and live in the world, how we are shaped culturally. PCR understands the function of self interest in personality formation and how it functions in the cultural systems out of which they come, and the resulting of how cultural formations representative of collective and variant cultural and opposed formations react to the world formed by historical experience

one sees and understands the personalities/cultures in the world as it is and how it came to be and ones predictive understanding can be unerring relative to all or part..the part one is oneself out of and knows very well.

I have understood the Zionists for a long time now and I always knew Putin is/was wasting his time. and I don’t understand why because Putin is way more familiar with Zionists than I am. so is PCR. and if PCR can understand as well as he does why not Putin, who is clearly no fool…particularly when so much is involved starting with Putins own nation..Russia

what is Putin going to do now in his last term..Leave who, which party leader, to deal with the Russian fifth column, strong and roiling, thrashing the nation for the Zionists? that fifth column is just as guilty for those 15 lost lives as the Zionist pilot who pulled the trigger, and the Israeli nation

the consideration that Putin will leave that Russian fifth as strong as it appears to be is nuts! why would Putin leave them there, why would he not destroy them, or leave them so weak they are no longer a threat/ . Why in heavens name not would he not do that?

why would Putin be so seemingly trusting. based on the Russian history I know Putins seems very un-Russian. on the Russian history i know, not one more Russian life would go unanswered. I may be just as diplomatic and smart as Putin, go the way he has been going, resolving problems, reducing or eliminating issues between nations, cutting the normal bloodshed around the world setting standards for peace, promoting a peaceful and progressive vie of the human future globally

but the issues of the past are not resolved and until they are the human product out of the old formations are a distinct and absolute threat to human survival.

and Putin ought to have been ready for that threat for his polices not only in the ME, promoting peace, attacks the very foundations of the fossil Zionists world economic activities that make Israel possible…activities of a people who even today, one thousand years later behave as if they just yesterday walked out Khazarran-Itil and Sarkel .

Putin ought to have been ready if even only in the protection of Russian lives for the experience between Russia and Khazaria is as old as both peoples..and we know what it was like, has been over the centuries, especially during the Bolshevik period.

Yup….a Russian made missile shot down a Russian plane killing Russians fired by Syria……and Russian fleet and Latakian forces appears to have done nothing in defence of illegal hostile intent by IDF and France. I do not think Iran is going to be to happy with this….did they hint they might assist Syria in regaining Golan heights? Because Iran is still being targeted….with Russia “aware” of this …..but doing what for or with Iran……?

” …On Netanyahu’s personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. These would have been less likely to veer off towards the wrong target. In consequence an Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. Netanyahu can forget about any further such “favors” from Moscow.
“http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2018/september/18/israel-provocation-kills-russian-soldiers-moscow-will-take-political-revenge/

The large scale political consequences of this incident are beyond measure and represent a great set back for Russia. The weak, almost apologetic response of the Russians disheartens its allies and supporters. Russia has todied after Isreal – to its shame – and now appears powerless against the results. Failing to arm the Syrians tells other partners what they can expect. And just plain military incompetence on the field inspires doubt that the Russia military are really any good.

Its hard to imagine how the fall out could be any worse. If that was an American or British plane, those nations would have acted decisively and firmly. But Russia is an empty bag of wind.

And there are Russian radars on their bases which can see everything moving in Israel, or maybe the French ship has used its electronic system and disabled the Russian ? if that happened we’ll never know but I’m very surprised by the Russian military “reaction”.

1) There was a substantial amount of time between the incident and the time official statements were made. Undoubtedly there was a bunch of negotiation and deliberation. We have no way of knowing what was agreed upon and for whose benefit the agreements were made.

2) If they truly wanted to appease Israel, why admit to the incident at all? Militaries cover up unflattering incidents all the time. Remember how the witnesses of the bin Laden raid died a month later in a different country? Or the Pentagon’s claim back in April about how all the missiles hit their targets, despite clear video evidence to the contrary.

3) What is the statute of limitations for retaliation? If an Israeli plane mysteriously goes down a week from now, would that be a better or worse response than launching an attack today?

Yes, I was going to say:
Perhaps later retaliation is better than immediate symmetrical coup.
Isn’t this what the Brits are accusing the Russians of in the Skripal case?
Waiting ten years to strike?

I can see the wisdom in not launching an immed. military Gegenschlag.
But I cannot see the wisdom in not expressing fury and expressing it in symbolic acts of various sorts.
But what about recalling diplomats, throwing Israeli diplomats out of Russia,
clampoing down on any travel by Israelis to Russia.
And then, in a couple of months, an Israeli plane or ship “disappears.” Or, 15 IDF are assassinated. No obvious motive. A la Mossad. Surely the Russians have infiltrated Mossad.
Or, a Russian Freedom Flotilla and Fun Fair, guarded by gunships, shows up on the coastline of Gaza and unloads food, water, and medicine, and provides a clinic, doctors, and free onboard medical care for ill Gazans, plus some nice movies, etc. for Palestinian children. All is in memory of 15 Russians who gave their lives for Syrian freedom.

“Putin stated that the Russian side is set to thoroughly investigate the case, while stressing that “the Israeli jet didn’t down our aircraft.”

“Most certainly, we have to sort the case out most seriously. And our attitude to the tragedy is outlined in the Russian Defense Ministry’s statement,” he noted, adding he personally approved it.

“Russia’s retaliatory measures with regard to the Il-20 downing will be directed primarily at stepping up security of Russian military officers in Syria, our military facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic,” he said. “These will be the steps everyone will notice,” he stressed.”https://sputniknews.com/world/201809181068134163-putin-russia-il-20-syria/

I do not read about further joint defencive action with Syrian forces to protect Syria.Hindsight anyone?

This was one of those rare times when staying up late at ungodly hours into the night pays off. First came the reports filtering through of missiles launched on Lattakia (which initially I didn’t pay too much attention to, since Israel bombs Syria with impunity every other day of each week), and since there are so many meddlers in the area the next order of business was to pin-point who was doing the firing. Syrian Defense first reports were that the missiles were fired from the west (not east), off the coast of Latakkia, so, the Mediterranean sea, most likely NATO origin. Eventually Israel was named, and around that time was when the Il-20 was downed.

Meanwhile; we got NOTHING on RT (I got RT on permanently on the background). Shortly after that came the reports of France involvement, then US Defense saying that they had nothing to do with the attack on Lattakia, Russian MOD saying that they were looking at France as possible culprits for the downing of the Il-20 and then the Pentagon came out blaming Syria for the Russian plane shot down by mistake. Now, bear in mind that I was following this chain of events online for a span of, say, three to four hours…

It was around that time that RT finally came out with the breaking news: Russian plane “gone missing” in Syria. Their line of reporting was that the plane disappeared off radar, and a search and rescue operation was launched. Funny, since by then Russia already confirmed that the IL-20 was shot down.

No more updates came filtering through after that, Syrian sources went to bed for the night and so did I. Now I’m waking up to the news that Russia is more than happy to go along with the Pentagon line of BS: ‘Syria downed Russian plane by mistake while targeting Israeli jet shadowing it.’ Whatever helps them to save face and their joo friends, aaand their western “partners,” I suppose. Oh, and we mustn’t forget that this is happening in the midst of yet another fabulous “peace deal” in Sochi with Turdogan, agreed only a few hours before the attack on Lattakia.

But whichever way you slice it, this looks beyond bad for Russia, not the country – never the country and its wonderful people – the leadership. But then again, I’m waaaay past ‘peak-disappointment’ with them, non of this comes as a big shock anymore. I haven’t forgotten Minsk I and II, those were a far bigger deal than this one:

“Putin: “Our response to downed plane will be additional security measures for our forces in Syria that everyone will notice.”

Me: That is NOT an “adequate response”. That is just what you should have done to protect our servicemen in the first place.”

Putin has outright lied, and lost all credibility here. Effing coward who insists on bringing a chessboard to a gunfight. Especially when dealing with spineless cowards who only need a good smack in the face to turn tail and run.

Or at the very least, a no-fly-zone. Including Israel.

Oh, and what about the frog missiles?
I hope I am wrong, but it looks like the Kremlin is in desperate need of regime change.
Hoping for Shoigu or Zhirinovsky.

After six years of Gorbachev, nine years of Yeltsin and nineteen years of Yeltsin 2.0 Government I think it is very hard to separate what is called 5th column and what is simply the real nature of new Russia power system.
Russia has been murdered two times with the killing of the Tsar and the killing of USSR. And the second time is forever, I fear.

If Israel violates and attacks Russia and if you have the French getting involved, then Russia should no longer uphold the agreement with Israel about keeping Iranians out.
Iran has the manpower to spare and Syria and Russia could use Iranian fighters to counteract the flood of foreign backed terrorists and fighters.
Making all these agreements with sides which have shown, repeatedly, that they cannot be trusted and who are working for opposite goals than Syria is a betrayal.

Russia supplies S300s to Turkey and Sordid Wahabia – you know, those people who bankroll and incite Islamic terror in the Caucasus and elsewhere in Russia.

But they won’t supply anything to Syria or Iran. Syria has to defend itself with 50 year old museum piece S200s.
They won’t deliver the S300s Iran has paid for. Iran has to develop its own missiles. Mod: IIRC, those SS300s or SS400s were finally delivered about a year ago.

Putin’s response is to cringe to Nuttyyahoo and excuse and down play what has occurred.

Russia is a very unreliable, untrustworthy ally. It constantly grovels to the Zionists and Neocons who want to destroy it. Putin values the lives of his own servicemen very cheap. If I was a Russian serviceman, I’d be asking for another commander in chief.

I wanna run a thought by you……
Generally the Israelis are not into outright lies…

Mod: Right! And the Pope is not generally Catholic.

Oh they put their own special twist on events but they’re not the “Saddam has WMD and is gonna nuke Tel Aviv in 15 minutes” types. (Even while their allies have been mouthing off about Asaad and his CWs, they’ve been silent.) So what if….

A Syrian shot that plane down, knew what he was doing and did it deliberately?
I’m not saying the govt, I’m saying an angry serviceman who regards the deal Putin made that bequeathed Idlib to Turkey as betrayal.

You see… we hear from the Russian side that this Idlib “demilitarised zone” suits Syria but we haven’t heard anyone from the Syrian side saying so – in fact, we haven’t heard them saying anything. Seems not even RT has thought to get their opinion…..

An’ if I was Syrian – I’d be spittin’ mad.
Just a thought that popped back into my mind when the Israelis said the plane went down after their planes had returned to Israel….

Russia is probably still putting pieces in place and do think that Russia is completely ready, yet, for a more direct confrontation. I consider Putin to be the adult in the room, knowing that we are close to a more disastrous line, and is trying his level best to advance preparations. Israel and Russia know that these uSA will pull Israel’s ass out of the fire (moral hazard).
For all who are gung ho for a conflagration … I take it that y’all are not front line soldiers.
If there is still a way to back away, it is worth waiting a little bit more. Maybe for nothing, Maybe for much good.
I cannot imagine Russia and Syria holding back much longer.

The Pussy French were used by Israel to orchestrate the whole incident. The French launch an attack while the jews hide behind the Russian plane so that it is hit by the Syrian missile. Typical diversionary jewish maneuver by stealth. Putin very soon exculpates Israel, shame on him.

The incident a Jewish master stroke. Satanyahu is dying with a laughter attack.

Putin does what Johnson did after the Zio attack on USS Liberty. Protecting Zio criminals who have murdered his countrymen. Disgusting! Russian voters have made a mistake; They’ve elected an Israeli agent.

Johnson definitely protected the Israelis. However, Johnson may not have had final say on a proper response. On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked USS Liberty, killing 34 crew members and injuring 173. In January 1968, an Israeli submarine was lost with all its 69-man crew…https://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/31/world/the-lost-sub-is-found-and-israelis-can-grieve.html
“…the Dakar, a British submarine newly refurbished for the Israeli Navy, disappeared in the midst of its maiden voyage, from England to Haifa. … In January 1968, an Israeli crew set out from Portsmouth, England, in their new submarine, a World War II-era vessel purchased from the British and refurbished. Just off Crete, the ship sent what would be its final message to shore … the Dakar was found 300 miles west of Israel – precisely on its original course.”

When Turkey downed the Russian plane, Turkey was ally and lacey Mod: Do you mean “lackey”? of USA, now take sides with Russia. Putin, like playing chess, will take the advantage of the circumstances, but not lighty Mod: not “lightly” or not “likely”?

Every American provocation is always accompanied by many people on the internet saying that Russia must now give America the war it wants. The logic is always that of the American gangster. If you don’t fight back and prove to the world you are a man, then you are weak and despicable. The message is that Putin has to go down shooting outnumbered in a fight at the time and place the Americans want, because if he doesn’t do exactly that then he’s shown the world he is weak. In a world dominated by the culture of American gangster movies and gangster rap music, this is the only possible response, and Putin is of course a fool if he does not do what the gangster movies and gangster rap say that he must do.

It’s not the best metric by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s always interesting to see how the obvious trolls react to a given event. What do they want you to think and why do they want you to think it?

Due to simple logistics with the water supply, Israel cannot survive except by dragging the US or NATO into a war, which seems to have been the objective here. Israeli leadership is acting increasingly desperate, and for a logical (if not good) reason. I cannot say if Russia made the right decision here or not, but Israeli desperation is not going to just go away–I believe that further escalation is inevitable no matter what is happening right now.

From what I read in the comment section I can see lots of frustration about Putin and the leadership. Even Mark Sloboda (from RT Crosstalk) is frustrated. Putin’s popularity will fall further down without doubt, especially in Russia. However, what can he do really? Military action against Israel is a non-option. It simply can’t happen. Russia has strong and deep historical ties with Israel and in fact Russia with Israel is a real “double helix”. I can feel a quite smart game being played by Israel. I have to give them that credit. Israel wants Iran out of Syria. This is the main goal. Israel’s late actions are obviously placing Putin between a rock and a hard place. This could very well be done strategically. First Netanyahu appearing at Victory day, then countless attacks on Syria where Russia was just looking the other way and now this. All suggest to me that Putin is being pushed to get tougher on Iran and choose finally and openly his side. We will finally see who really Putin is in the very near future. It will be quite difficult to sustain the “great world leader” image especially among the Russian population.

Landing approach from the sea. Planes fly in patterns of ellipses and ovals and circles. They don’t have to fly directly over to do the EW job they are constructed to do. They also are up for long hours. This was the ending of their mission. They were landing.

In their rage against Israel and the ‘weakling’ Putin, the former deserved and the latter not, everyone seems to have forgotten the French role in all this :

“At the same time Russian air control radar systems detected rocket launches from the French frigate Auvergne, which was located in that region.”

Was the French frigate attacking the Syrian port or offensively and deliberately defeating the S-200 missiles sent up by the Syrians or confused and defending itself against perceived Syrian or Israeli missile launches?

Referring to the UPDATE1: “… Putin is already “downgrading” the gravity of what happened. He has just declared that “the Israeli jet didn’t down our aircraft” and spoke of “tragic circumstances“. …”:

Isn’t it high noon to “downgrade” Mr. Putin? He did some good things in the past (Georgia, Crimea), but ever since his “Minsk” débâcle it has been becoming increasingly clear that he has outlived his usefulness. Presidential elections are far off, but there are clear provisions in the RF Constitution that would do. (Of course, this is just wishfully thinking aloud…)

I wholeheartedly share Saker’s perceptive “… but I am personally dubious about these “steps”. …”

As for “… We will find out soon. …”, I am certainly not holding my breath. Not any more.

Interestingly, the Minsk peace-plan for Donbas appears to be a stronger and stronger point of leverage against the Kiev fascist regime as time passes. When Putin agreed to Minsk, he got Der Porky Fuhrer to agree as well. For those who see outside the American propaganda bubble, its become more and more obvious that the Ukrainians are the ones whose ideology of fascism and hated prevents them from living up to the agreements made in Minsk. And some other key players such as the Germans appear to be reaching the same conclusions.

It is because of Putin’s patience that this entire world has not been reduced to radioactive ashes already. I agree he should be tougher on Israel, but to completely get rid of the man over this and take much more aggressive actions without thinking them through would be foolhardy. That’s why Putin is one of the most powerful leaders in the world and not You or I…

For years now too many confuse v Putin’s patience with weakness. since the start of the russian/syrian campaign in october 2015 israel has grown militarily weaker day by day while iran and syria have grown stronger not to mention hezbollah who smoked the idf in 2006 and has yet to be retested by reluctant tel aviv for a rematch.

too many here mistake israeli arrogance and bluster with strength and power. it is not! it is short man syndrome every school boy can recognize.

now in late 2018 syria is nearly free of terrorists, israel has been castrated visa vie their interference in syria while the united states is looking ridiculous clinging to their barely manned outpost in syria shouting how relevant they remain while astana takes place with not a washington representative in sight.

washington is the 21rst century version of the ottoman empire in the day during and just after WW1. it only a matter of time and much less than most suppose… not if…. they are pushed out of the middle east.

for all the criticism heaped on v Putin the last 3 years is a testament to his strategic vision while enduring scorn and the most vile remarks and caricatures from those in stature unable to reach his socks.

nato is a non starter. the used car collection that constitutes the uk and french naval and air forces is a joke that any ”sovereign power”‘ whose dignity remained intact would refuse to parade about for all the world to laugh. nato is an american beard here in the 21rst century adding male virility to the american rock hudson military power chimera.

So much for Vostok 2018. Its now as if it never happened. Because the Russians took a real bloody nose, and have failed to respond. All this talk about the 5th column in Russia of Jews is nothing more than small, nonsense talk. AA nation should talk through its ministries, not some rags run and owned by Jews. And is the 5th column cause any trouble, arrest them.

Letting the enemy lead you by the nose or dancing to his tune is not wise, better to make the enemy dance to your tune, and I’m sure Russia will retaliate, in a time and place of their choosing, not that of USA’s or Israel’s.

I fully second the Russian MOD and Sergei Shoigu that the downing of the IL-20 was a direct consequence of a deliberate provocation by Israel (and France). With due respect, President Putin, it was tragic but neither an incident nor an accident. In my opinion, it was an official declaration of war.

If Israel shall pay a political price, so be it. However, in order to stop this madness, Israel and France will have to pay a military price as well. Whenever they attack Syria again, the Russian army should be allowed to take down their airplanes without further notice.

Ok, that does it. I always defended VVP’s patience – but this is too much.
Let’s hope that “tragic” mistake BS is just for public consumption – if he used stronger words officially, then Rs would have to take direct action.
What I do not understand is why Rs tolerate zios’ blatant violations of international law (or whatever is left of it)?
Why can’t they tell zios to xyxq-off – and quit bombing Syria?
Let’s hope that is exactly what is being said in private – the game’s over, you do this one more time – and you pay the price.
Yes, this is a manifestation of zios’ “cleverness” – one that hopefully will do them in (sooner or later).
Syrians must be steaming!

This looks very bad, indeed, for everyone involved. So, if the op had unfolded as planned, the Rus would have sunk the French frigate, then NATO would have the pretext it needed for a massive missile launch to overwhelm the Rus AA batteries and bomb Syria into the stone age, all while Bibi blames the French for starting it all.

The only saving grace here is that Rus didn’t take the bait. I feel sorrow for those who lost loved ones.

Agreed. That was the role of the French. They really want to provoke a major war. Tragic as it was, the Russians are the only adults in the house.

It is quite revealing to listen to the army of trolls who now fall over themselves calling Putin weak, they lost all confidence etc. The Russians will respond, just not the way the Empire wants them to.

Saker, yours is the first article I read with a firm position about this tragedy. I agree with you. When will the zionists start paying for their abuses? Somebody, somehow must start showing them their real place in this planet. Mr Shoigu should indeed not let this pass without a response…

Dear all, guys & girls, дамы и господа,
first of all let me express my deepest condolences for the tragic loss of the 15 Russian servicemen who perished as the result of the Il-20 shootdown. I want to stress that I’m deeply surprised, shocked, and disturbed, not only by this horrendous provocation, but also by the incredibly *inaccurate* and *dismissive* description of what happened and of the ultimate victims of this whole tragedy.
Why are these 15 Russian casualties summarily described just as “servicemen” or “crewmen”?
These were not “simple” прапорщики or privates – what we are all forgetting is that these 15 servicemen were:

It literally takes *decades* in order to induct, train, and build the skills and experience of such highly prized military personnel. Merely calling them “crewmen” or “servicemen” is highly inappropriate and inaccurate – let’s therefore pay due respect to these fallen – as these were not “ordinary soldiers”!

Next – the loss of the Il-20 is nothing short of *devastating* for both the Russians and the Syrians. That plane was a specialized electronic warfare asset regularly patrolling (and securing) the surrounding airspace – and…Il-20s don’t grow on trees!!! Let me underscore this – the loss of this aircraft is an absolutely *devastating* loss that will cost the Russians and the Syrians dearly – notwithstanding the fact that Israel certainly won’t offer any compensation for this human and material loss.

Final points and hard questions (and I haven’t seen many questions being raised about this so far….happy to hear/read your take on this!):

1) The Russians saw the Israeli F-16 way before they got so close to Latakia and to the Il-20. Why did they allow the Israelis to get *so dangerously close* to their prized asset – the Il-20 – and the the Khmeimim airbase?

2) What about the Russian EW-systems? While it is understandable that the Il-20 was on a landing approach and maybe not actively using its EW/radar systems – what about the other defensive assets deployed in the area? What about the Khmeimim-based EW systems like the Krasukha? What about the array of surveillance/tracking radar systems that Russia operates?

3) Why was the Il-20 not escorted??? I thought that after the downing of the Su-24 by Turkey, the Russians had decided to mandatorily escort major air assets such as bombers, tankers, surveillance planes etc? How come the flight of 4x F-16s could approach the Il-20 unimpeded with no interception/shadowing taking place beforehand?

4) What about Russian-Syrian coordination??? We know that the S-200s operated by the Syrians had been upgraded/serviced – this *must* have included the surveillance/tracking radars, as well as the IFF systems. So how could the Syrian SAM crews even fire the missile? Even if the Israelis claim that they informed the Russians just short of a minute or so before the strike, the Russians *must have seen – AND – tracked* the flight of the F-16s well in advance and even from their take-off, so they *should have informed* the Syrians.

5) What about Israeli EW-capabilities? Are Israeli F-16s now equipped with systems that allow them to fool Russian & Syrian radars and EW systems to the point where they can fly and approach a highly hostile area literally *undisturbed*, and be so confident that missiles fired at them will miss the target and hit the “friendlies” instead???

Food for thought folks…we all need to get to the bottom of this – too many questions – and too few answers…
My message to the Russian (political) leadership: LISTEN to the Konashenkovs, to the Shoigus, to the Gerasimovs…and do whatever is necessary to STOP THIS.
‘Nuff said…..

Usually there would be two or three or perhaps four of these planes in a deployment at an airfield. The idea is that they rotate shifts flying aloft above the conflict zone. Thus, there is always one plane up. How many planes rotate depends on how long they can remain aloft and how fatigued the crews become.

In the short term, if this plane was landing, there was either already another plane aloft taking its place, or the replacement plane was taxing for takeoff. There was likely little or no gap in having the capabilities of this sort of plane aloft over the conflict area.

In the longer term, if the loss of this plane negatively impacts the rotation, then a replacement plane is already on the way. Yes, these planes cost money. Yes, the crews are highly trained. Not for decades, as its rare for service-people to serve that long. But probably multiple advanced training classes. No one goes from Basic training to being on a plane like that. Such planes and crews do not grow on trees. But Russia would have enough to rotate a replacement to a priority station such as this. Someone is probably adjusting next year’s budget to order a replacement at MOD HQ today.

“Russia openly put the blame on Israel. If there was intent, at least on operational level–I doubt Commander of IAF would have been on his way to Moscow and Bibi urgently calling Putin. But never mind, it is well known fact that Putin is about to sell Russia to Zionists.”

I have not followed Martyanov’s writings…..but he seems to have pretty harsh words against Putin. Is this his general view on Putin’s direction ?

Indeed, the failure of Russia to upgrade Syrian defense systems (beyond S200 class) has contributed in part to this mess. It also appear the Russian psyche is somewhat on the same spectrum as Iranian martyrdom. Big systems (of belief) and small personnel cogs worth shit.

I’m fully 100% behind the Putin “rope a dope” theme but it has been going on for a long time. There surely comes a time when it is either punch back or throw in the towel and retire from the match. Me thinks Putin is now increasingly part of the emerging problem. Perhaps it is time he retired and another Russian face took control of the Russian Federation?

For your Questions No. 1 and 2 I think that the answer could be in the agreed protocol with Russia Isr. partners: I suppose that the Russian don’t considered a danger (for them) the approaching or very close F-16s and as far I could understand “the EW System” was the “phone call” from Isr. informing of an attack to Syrian targets so they considered normal and not dangerous the F-16s activity. No. 3: this kind of aircraft not always is escorted as depends on the operation profile and area of operation. No. 4: I suppose that the Russian don’t inform the Syrian about Isr. air operation. No. 5: As Russia had with Isr. a strong partnership is possible/probable that is also helping/informing in some way Isr. Air Force in its routine operations against Syria targets.

Russia should at least go beyond its declared narrow interests of ridding Syria of terrorists and broaden its interests to include any attack on Syria. That is the only language the West will understand.

It is because they know they have backup that these countries (France?!?!?) have the balls to attack Syria with impunity. They do this while Syria has the world’s second most powerful military as it’s ally.

Is Putin being clever by downgrading the role played by the Israelis? Is he being too conservative (i.e. too afraid) to put the blame on the Israelis and exact reparations (remember The Russian jet downed by the Turks two years ago)? Will Putin eventually be overtaken by hardcore Russian nationalists? I cannot but link today’s “incident” with the Tsar and his family’s murder being considered “ritual killing” by some sectors within the Russian Orthodox Church.

The Saker is knowledgeable about Russia. My question: what forces inside Russia could be unleashed by yesterday’s event? Could Putin be thrown under the bus by hardliners?

Putin’s restraint in the past has met the approval of a number of analysts. Maybe showing restraint was the right thing to do at the time. Yesterday Russian blood has once more been spilt and in greater quantity. Maybe time to unleash the Russian bear’s wrath?

It is surprising that Russia was still coordinating with Israel the constant attacks on Syria and that has caused the death of Russian military. This is indefensible to public opinion around the world that has considerations by Russia. Or Putin breaks it or it will take his country to the ruin although it is not by the war.

So the chosen gang got away with murder. What else is new. Hard to find a positive angle, but you can always say that at least it was not nearly as blatant and bad as the assault on the Liberty in 67. In that case, massive hushing was required. And delivered. This is relatively easy in comparison.
The indignation we hear is mostly sincere but the surprise is forced. There should be none, and from the looks of it, nothing at all will happen. We can always speculate that subtle replies have been delivered.
Probably the way the Israelis look at it is something like this: “we need to do these things to show we are indeed the chosen gang. Our impunity is a perk we get with that title, and we must display it in plain view. The cockier the better.”

A feeble ray of hope lies in supposing that eventually their psychopathic, unwashed and unpredictable Yaweh will have a fit and deal them one of his huge punitve blows to dispers them again. But that may take awhile, don’t hold your breath. In any case it is probably true that the best strategy for non-zio Russians at the moment is to clench their fists in rage, but keep holding the punch.

There is a common point, though. Like the USS Liberty, the IL-20 was a specialized reconnaissance and EW asset, whose loss tears a large hole in the intelligence gathering and defense capabilities of Russia.

A small Russian intervention against ISIS which was supposed to last 6 months(one year at worse).Three years later we are nowhere.

Western demands on Syria

While on the ground, the war is ending, and only Idlib still needs to be freed from the terrorists, the Western powers are starting trouble all over again. They have just presented their demands to the UN special envoy, Staffan de Mistura. Unsurprisingly, the United States refuse the process led by Russia, for the unique reason that they didn’t have anything to do with it, while the United Kingdom and France seek to impose institutions which would allow them to govern the country from the shadows.

I am very disappointed in President Vladimir Putin. He must be beholden to the Zionist Cabal in some way. These brave Russian servicemen deserved better than this. My hat off to Russian Defense Minister Shoigu for not shying away frim the truth and laying blame for this exactly where it lies which is on Israel. Vechnaya Pamyat (Memory Eternal) for the 15 Russian servicemen murdered by the Zionist State.

If Russia had not rolled back on their plan to provide Syria with S300, because of request from Nutts&Yahoo, this aircraft even coming in the way would have landed safely and the missile would have reached the intended target of Israeli F-16.

So instead of blaming Israel Russia should blame itself.

In my view Zionists took revenge of the earlier F-16 downed by Syrians (with RADAR data from Russian).

Certainly looks like an act of war.
It is likely that behind Putin’s response there will be actions that will send a very loud and clear message to the perfidious West.
Years ago I had a Russian friend that always told me that Russia will back up, quietly prepare, then suddenly strike.

No offense to any Russians, or others who have the decent kindness in their soul to mourn the needless loss of young lives, but ….

Russia has stated in the past that it uses the Syria deployment as training. I believe I saw a notice that said that 75% of Russian air force personnel had rotated through the Syrian deployments.

As such, there appear to be a few training lessons to be learned from this.

The Russians would have had much more warning of this action than the 1 minute official notice given by the Israelis (which reminds one of the way the Japanese tried to be cute clever and give notice to the Americans half an hour before they bombed Pearl Harbor). Russian radars and probably this unfortunate plane would have detected the flight of F-16s from the moment they took off from airfields in Israel. They would have been tracking this flight the entire way. The F-16s are old aircraft designed before anyone thought of ‘stealth’, and there is no question they would have been on Russian screens the whole way.

Of course, you don’t know where they are going in advance. But you can watch them travel.

A plane such as the doomed plane is basically a cargo plane. Militaries convert a cargo plane to be these sorts of AWACS or ELINT planes. The requirements are that the plane can carry a lot of equipment. Lots of various radars and sensors, and likely some EW gear as well. We know there were 15 people on board. Pictures I’ve seen of American versions have a row of these people in the cargo bay with consoles of equipment and screens in front of them along the walls. Another requirement is that they stay in the air for long periods. Planes like this fly long patrols of staying in the air over a combat zone for 8,10,12 hours or longer.

What these cargo planes are not is fast.

The training lesson is that a situation can develop quickly, and these sorts of planes can not get out of the way quickly. Its a lumbering cargo plane in a sky which becomes full of jet fighters. Thus, the commanders need to have a long vision and see well in advance a situation developing that can put such a plane in danger. In this case, that plane needed to be waved off from its landing approach and told to get out of there as soon as the Israeli planes were just turning to the northeast. That’s 20/20 hindsight. But its also how lessons are learned.

I’d suspect this was the normal time for ending a normal patrol and thus the plane was making its normal approach to come home and land. The Military lesson is that normal can be dangerous in a war zone. At the very least, a commander needs to be on their toes at all times to make sure to react away from normal and to do so quickly when danger might just possibly be developing.

It is a sad and tragic day, and my heart aches for those who loved the ones lost last night. But, to be brutally honest, learning these sorts of lessons is one of the stated reasons why the Russians are rotating their troops through there.

PS… someone might want to give the Syrians some advanced training about being careful where into the sky they fire these self-radar-guided missiles. They did not target this plane. They certainly targeted the Israelis when they fired. But the missiles are equipped with their own radar and are self-guided after being fired, which is why the Israelis used the human shield tactic of breaking off the attack behind this plane and its bigger radar cross-section of a cargo plane.

Thank-you for your informative post. It raises some further questions.
1. The “1-minute warning” statement is meaningless. As you state, the Russian radars should have been aware and tracking the Israeli F-16s for some time (10-15 minutes) before they fired their missiles. Did the Russian radars malfunction? Do these radars even work at all? Is the Russian radar system really integrated with the Syrian ground-to-air missile defense system?
2. Once hit, the Russian IL-20 would have disintegrated and fallen out of the sky quickly – within 30 to 60 seconds. It would be gone as a radar target and as a ground-to-air missile target. The Israeli F-16s could no longer “hide” behind it. Why did the Syrian SS-200 operators not target and destroy the F-16s at that point? If the SS-200 can hit a missile, why can’t it hit an Israeli fighter jet?
3. As you point out, the IL-20 is a slow cargo plane – and, on landing approach, with flaps down, it would be even slower. To get up sufficient speed to get out of the path of either incoming fighter jets or incoming missiles would have taken it at least 5 to 10 minutes. It was a “sitting duck” for for both ground-to-air missiles (SS-200) and for any air-to-air missiles fired by incoming fighter jets or French (or even U.S.) warships.
4. What about the French warship that was supposedly detected firing missiles? We’ve heard nothing more about that. Did that firing really take place? And, if so, are there to be no consequences for that missile firing?
The official explanation is beginning to smell “fishy”. The official explanation begins to look like a coverup for what really happened.
Finally, may God’s ever-present love surround the families, the friends and the comrades of this tragedy.

Yes, Israel violated International Law attacking a Sovereign State;
Yes, in this last aggression they used as “shield” or as “hiding” a bigger aircraft;
Yes, even worse, all that was also very probably pre-planned (..and provocative…) having the previous weeks observed the flight pattern and times of such reconnaissance flights.

But…

It exists, from tens of years, a device called “Friend or Foe” that allows to disentangle an enemy target from a friendly aircraft…,
It is assured that the Syrian air defences are coordinated and integrated with the Russian one…

All said,
the Syrian air defence fired, far toward the sea, long range S-200 rockets, where is flying the slow, big Russian reconnaissance aircraft, to try to hit the small, fast, elusive, low flying F-16s?
A S-200 missile that has a range of 300 Km (up to Nicosia and more!), and that already, in the past, was responsible for downing (gift of the Ukraine Armed Forces) the far away civilian flight Siberian Airlines 1812?

If Israel behaviour is to be condemned, and, possibly, finally hampered, there are also big responsibilities from the other side.

Today, I can only think about the Russians killed in this sickening criminal act of war committed with unmitigated impunity. If they were to temporarily resurrect, today, what would they think about, and feel following Mother Russia’s reactions for the whole world to witness, following their death?

Were I a relative or close friend of the deceased, I must admit I wouldn’t be the least impressed.

Mother has been very kind to Bibi, but that kindness may have ended today. This operation was carefully planned and the target of the entire operation was the IL, no doubt. There is no way the Israelis and her allies did not know the exact drill the IL was performing, and they attacked at the very moment the IL was at it’s most vulnerable, in it’s landing glide from the sea side of aerodrome.

This is called a ‘sucker punch’, and this sucker punch cost us 15 fine soldiers plus a very valuable airframe. The problem for Bibi, nato and CehSha is this sucker punch has removed any, if there was any, ‘trust’ in any and all agreements made between the opposing antagonists. There is no way Bibi ordered this well trained for and planned operation without the consent, and possibly orders from, either Langley or Five Points.

On the other hand, I certainly do not expect President Putin to do anything rash. He is patient and makes no moves without careful forethought and planning. While some posters regard this patience and planning as a sign of weakness, they seem to want a knee jerk instant reaction to this very open and blatant provocation, this will not happen.

Never forget, revenge is a dish best served cold, and I’m willing to bet the farm that the revenge for this act will be served ice cold and will be very painful. Will we ever know what the revenge is? I doubt it, but Bibi, nato and CehSha will know. And as a gentle aside, La Belle France will not escape unscathed. La Belle France seems to have forgotten that the last time they putzed with Mother, the Russian Army ended up in Paris, and the ‘french’ army was buried in mass graves from the gates of Moskau to the Polish borders and beyond.

Auslander
Author

Sevastopol, The Third Defense. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079KRPLS4 Book 1, A Premonition, The Move South. Set against a backdrop of real events and real places, the reader is left to filter fact from fiction.

I am sure the IAF commander on his way to explain himself will be told in no uncertain terms what will happen next time. And there will be payback in due course as you say – it would be nice if we were allowed to know what.

The problem is, is that FUKUS seem determined to start a shooting war with Russia, so this will not be the last provocation. Putin has outwitted them in Idlib, and thwarted the false flag. What next?

His ambiguous statements regarding “who done it” and “why”, is a part of necessary timing, essential for a number of things that must happen or be completed before the right action is taken. This is pure Kutuzov. He waited and waited … and even allowed Moscow to be burned… and that was the beginning of the end.

A quote from this article is significant:

“Napoleon was reluctant to leave the Kremlin; he had not even spent a full day in it. He knew its significance to the Russian people. But the blaze was about to cut off all the exits, and he was forced to flee. His first stop was the Petrovsky palace outside the capital. Seeing the graveness of his position, he proposed peace talks. “This war is just starting,” replied the Russian commander.”

Enough said. I am quite confident that V. Putin, and his truly outstanding team of professionals, know pretty well what needs to be done and, more importantly, have reliable feedback mechanisms, to handle errors, mistakes and weaknesses.

This demonstrate that the only “800 pound gorilla” in the area is USA, and that Russia is still in Syria because the Trump has some secrets accords in place with Putin, but otherwise the russian forces in Syria would be carpet bombing and obliterated in just a few days without any significant losses in the NATO side (as US did to some hundreds russian mercs recently)

Russia could show more and more fresh painted soviet scrap masquerading as “cutting edge technology” but this technology have been defeated again and again from the Bekaa valley to Desert Storm in multiple times, and now is managed by poor paid and trained unmotivated vodka lovers ruskies, and the result will be the same, and this is the real reason Putin, who know this perfectly, will never dare to shot-down any allied or israeli plane in Syria or to retaliate in kind after any attack on the syrian or russian forces

It is time to Russia armed forces to pack and leave Syria (and empty all the air bases and ports they have) before they suffer many many more casualties. This is an advice

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