Use this thread to discuss Deoxys-D (Deo-D)'s effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, his best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Deoxys-D should be banned or if it should stay in the XY UU tier.

All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted. If you are relatively new to this kind of environment, i suggest you read these guidelines.

Do not forget that, if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.

Well, that's the set that's a pain to play around. There are some instances of thunder wave and some of recover, but this set is the set. There isn't anything like bisharp like there is in ou and there isn't anything like krokodile like there is in lu. I saw a team with tornadus and deo-d where the tornadus was probably defiant, but I don't really know the viability in running the two together. I guess there's competitive milotic, but that isn't really useful. Overall, things that take a lot of hazard damage like volcarona victini and staraptor pair well with deo-d because it gives a good reason for the opposite side to defog the field.

The problem with deo-d is that it can reliably get hazards on the field without the other team being able to do anything about it but a little bit of damage. It outspeeds a lot of things and magic coats the rest. It can usually at least get up rocks and one layer of spikes. Ways to prevent it from dispatching hazards would be powerful dark, ghost and bug moves. Someone should run damage calcs with crawdaunt choice band knock off, weavile with different shit, and chandelier choice specs shadow ball. Volcarona bug buzz too I guess..Heracross could also do damage...Choice specs hydrogen with dark pulse is also worth running. Of course, with some of these at least stealth rocks would still be up. Besides those, things can predict around magic coat by waiting to taunt and instead attacking or placing hazards first can cause problems. These would be things like sabyeylej and other deods. Mega-absol also should considered with its dark typing and magic pouncing. Scolipedeeded can potentially get a sword dance off before being taunted and the megahorn could be dangerous as far as netting a 1hko. I don't really know though, I don't want to do the damage calcs.

Overall, after deod is dead there many defoggers and rapid spinners. Mew, mence, latiass are defoggers while mega blaster, dolphin, and the occasional hitmontop can rapid spin. I myself don't really care if its banned or not. I've only had the misfortune of seeing two of them and one had the genius set of cosmic power, thunderwave, recover, and stealth brock. I think considering the supports is important to deo- d more than with most suspects since hazards significantly change how the game plays out many turns after they are placed. This isn't a great analysis, but no one else posted so this is what happens. Maybe something constructive can be added on to this. Also, the guidelines link on the thread is broken so sorry in advance.

I felt bad so here's some damage calcs (ones with *'s outspeed deo-d, ones with & 1hko without exception):

Not much can prevent deo-d from getting up 1 turn of hazards barring choice band weavile and a very strange volcarona set. Sword dance scolipede is the next best thing if the desire is to get no hazards on the field.

Choice Specs Modest Chand OHKOes, Choice Band Craw OHKOes, Life Orb Weavile solidly 2HKOes (about 80% iirc) and removes Red Card. Absol ofc fullwall, but it's quite obvious to be led. But still, it does prevent DeoD from stacking. I posted some calcs on the 3. page of the pot. suspects thread (http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/july-august-xy-uu-tier-potential-suspects-discussion.27920/page-3), i don't repost it atm since I'm on Android. In conclusion, DeoD is quite easy to hit hard, despite it has 160 base defenses which are very overrated and not that deciding because of the low HP Stat. Well, DracoNinja made a good point with Sableye, which spinblocks both Donphan and Tentacruel (and isn't 0HKOed by MBlast), but there are still many hardhitters in UU to 2HKO it and so stop it from stacking, which i listed in my post, and good defoggers capable of defogging on big threats of the tier. Oh, and Sableye isn't the end of the world for spinners, spamming Spin against DeoD limits it to only SR in worst case. I vote no ban because it's hit hard by any good CB / Specs and SE pokemon of the Tier and because of the useful spinners and defoggers.

/e no one uses specs volc but still timid ones can setup on red card deod and life orb almost ohkoes. And SD Scoli runs 252 (+) atk , u can recalc it but the dmg is quite obvious. Your Weavile Calc 4got that DeoD has an item, so the damage taken from Knock Off is 1,5 times more.

@TheAardvarker
How do you Magic Coat a rest? Magic Coat only works for Taunt/Hazards/Swagger etc.
I'm not going to bother with the damage calcs because those are largely irrelevant.

I'm on the fence with Deo-D at the moment.
I personally think the best set is
Deoxys-D @Rocky Helmet / Colbour Berry
252 HP / W.e you want
-Recover
-Spikes
-Stealth Rocks
-Thunder Wave / Taunt

I think this because you can essentially control how long Deo lives. In UU his bulky is more "spammable" for lack of a better term so you can easily recover off damage to maintain spiking abilities. Thunder Wave cripples opposing threats while Taunt stops slower defoggers (Mew). It is true that Deo-d gets up hazards with incredible efficiency, but if you are using it you actually have to play it well instead of just spamming hazards. Letting Deo-D die to something means that the next mon that is sent in has to beat both the Pokemon on the field and any Defogger/Spinner on the opponents teams because getting those hazards away is probably top priority. The set above also sets Deo apart from the other hazards setters in the tier.

I'm on the fence because Deo doesn't so much besides set up hazards. Although it is good at that job is can be a dead weight. Letting it die to have your hazards removed 2 turns later basically means Deo did like nothing. Keeping up pressure on the offensive side is also not incredibly difficult as the Deo-D user and because Defog is the main way of removing hazards, there aren't a significant amount of Defog abusers in the tier. You have Tornadus, Braviary, and maybe Milotic. They aren't at Bisharp's level of scary but they can definitely put a dent in teams. Deo-D HO is also not nearly as cancerous as it is in OU.

Deo-D is a solid mon with a solid playstyle that has benefits and doubts to it. I'm not sure if it is broken because of the lack of Defog abuse and how UU removes hazards, but ultimately is it still hella annoying to deal with in battle. I may see if I get swayed one way or another based on the replies... if there are any more.

@Celebi. Your set isn't /bad/, but it has some flaw or rather 4MSS. Taunt = You cannot twave things that are faster and boost (btw, a Taunt/Recover Set must run the Speed to outpace ada luce and remaining EV into a defense, just to mention a spread for it more precisely than 252/w.e. u want, would be 252 HP / 100 Def / 156+ Spd) and off. Defog Latias can ruin your work (if it runs Sball, which is quite a cool option against any sort of psychics and doublade) too. Thunder Wave means you can't suppress any Defog and Mew will come once the set is revealed, which mostly happens since you go for dual hazards always, twave to generally cripple a possible threat and Recover if you have taken damage. Btw @ your comparison with OU's Deosharp, even they would rather try to keep the pressure on the Defog user up than outright going for the +2 boost, since OU has a lot of pokemon to take a +2 Sucker Punch or outpace Sucker with Mach Punch, but ehhh this isn't the OU discussion. However, I already gave my opinion in post #3 which is that hazards are easy to remove in XY UU (you seem agreeing with this) and many things limit the stacking, not fully stop it but limiting is sufficient. Idk about the defiant users
you mentioned, but i think Tornadus would be the best of them, since it doesn't require a choice item to have a good Speed stat (no item acrobatics set maybe viable?), but however is revengekilled by Scarfers and Weavile, which are quite good atm (Weavile is one of the best defog pressures btw, it OHKOes all Latias / Mew / Salamence [and earlier also zapdos])

@Rage.
All Deos with the exception of dual screens have 4mss. You also run T wave/Taunt based on team needs. You can also stall out Defog if push comes to shove. And recover means hazards getting defogged is not a huge issue. Ev's very depending in set and use with max HP being the only "necessity" hence my whatever you want. You can theoretically run Taunt over Recover with leftovers if you wanted. I personally like the Twave support on some teams and Taunt on others.

Every team is also not going to have Weavile so it's fine being weak to them. Braviary and Milotic compensate for speed with bulk. I don't think there is a best, but most effective maybe. each has their own merit.

While I agree there's no bisharp, I don't think this set is particularly overpowered. In fact, it seems like physically defensive mew with

-softboiled
-stealth rock
-will o wisp
-defog/thunderwave/taunt

does a similar job. If the deo-d set was specially defensive it would fulfill a different purpose, but the rocky helmet and colbur berry(which would only be for hydreigon and blastoise dark pulse) suggests its not. Of course the difference between deo-d and mew is that deo-d has access to spikes while mew has access to will-o-wisp and defog. Its a good set to bring up that should be considered because the usage statistics show this is used, but I don't think its the most dangerous set.

You are right red card deo-d will die quickly and be followed by a defogger, but support can prolong the removal of hazards. Mew, latias, and mence are the three most notable defoggers in the tier so after deo-d dies it is logical to switch to something that gives these trouble. Volcarona comes to mind for mew and latias as neither can afford to use defog while volc gets a quiver dance off. Weavile is also a good partner as rage mentioned and is one fo the only things that can stop a defogging crobat. As far as the rapid spinners of donphan, mega blastoise, and tentacruel, similar strategies with other pokes can be employed. While the hazards are up, each switch out becomes riskier making the opponent unduly need to bring their spinner or defogger in. Another thing to note is that most teams only have one. This makes the prediction much easier.

Also, deo-d with red card scouts the opponent's team well. The prediction of whether to taunt, magic coat, or stealth rock is often clear cut, and with the red card you potentially get assess to two pokes on the opponents team while all they get to see is a standard deo-d set.

I said Scarfers and Weavile, but ok one mon doesnt turn that much, you're right. On the other hand, if every team would run Weavile, Tornadus would be unviable as a sweeper. Let's say it's lack of a priority move makes it more revengable. I addoubt that Empoleon is very efficient as a Defiant User, because it's weak to common attacking types and its priority, Aqua Jet fails to kill many mons that are faster and capable of OHKOing an offensive Empoleon set. Even 70/70/70 base defenses Lucario takes only a maximum of 79% from +2 adamant life orb jet. I agree that it's possible to stall Defog out, even easier since DeoD has Pressure, which pairs well with recover. @Celebi.

Your Mew Set isn't even close to working like DeoD since DeoD lives from spikes, which create the term hazard stacker. I wouldn't argue with Volcarona because it gets suspected and very probably banned. Oh, and Celebi didn't suppose that Magic Coat is /designed/ to bounce Swagger, he rather mentioned it as an example for what gets bounced in general, and he stated the Recover Set as viable, not as /broken. I must add something that I forgot to say in my first post: DeoD outspeeds much you proposed, but
UU contains many base 100 and faster 'mons, we can say it's in the middle of the speed-tier, but rather under the average. @TheAardvarker

@Rage. I know what he meant by swagger, but he thought I said it bounced rest when I said "Deo-d outspeeds a lot and magic coats the rest". It would be like if I replied to your "Deo-d lives from spikes" by saying, deo-d only lives from 3 layers of spikes on the field x amount of times. Twisting words like that is pointless to intelligent conversation.

I agree with everything else you said except that the recover set wasn't only stated viable, but was stated as the "best set".

@Rage. I know what he meant by swagger, but he thought I said it bounced rest when I said "Deo-d outspeeds a lot and magic coats the rest".

Click to expand...

Just a simple misunderstanding, so let's leave this aside.

I agree with everything else you said except that the recover set wasn't only stated viable, but was stated as the "best set".

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Depends of his opinion which one he prefers. He said "i think its the best one" so obviously it's the opinion which matters.

And meh, again forgot a thing. Not every DeoD set has 4mss, the Colbur or
Mental Herb (suicide) Set with twave / taunt / 2 hazard works perfectly fine as it is. Red Card does indeed have a little 4mss, but taunt / magic coat / 2 hazard is standard with this item and works well.

While I agree there's no bisharp, I don't think this set is particularly overpowered. In fact, it seems like physically defensive mew with

1-softboiled
-stealth rock
-will o wisp
-defog/thunderwave/taunt

does a similar job. If the deo-d set was specially defensive it would fulfill a different purpose, but the rocky helmet and colbur berry(which would only be for hydreigon and blastoise dark pulse) suggests its not. Of course the difference between deo-d and mew is that deo-d has access to spikes while mew has access to will-o-wisp and defog. Its a good set to bring up that should be considered because the usage statistics show this is used, but I don't think its the most dangerous set.

2You are right red card deo-d will die quickly and be followed by a defogger, but support can prolong the removal of hazards. Mew, latias, and mence are the three most notable defoggers in the tier so after deo-d dies it is logical to switch to something that gives these trouble. Volcarona comes to mind for mew and latias as neither can afford to use defog while volc gets a quiver dance off. Weavile is also a good partner as rage mentioned and is one fo the only things that can stop a defogging crobat. As far as the rapid spinners of donphan, mega blastoise, and tentacruel, similar strategies with other pokes can be employed. While the hazards are up, each switch out becomes riskier making the opponent unduly need to bring their spinner or defogger in. Another thing to note is that most teams only have one. This makes the prediction much easier.

3Also, deo-d with red card scouts the opponent's team well. The prediction of whether to taunt, magic coat, or stealth rock is often clear cut, and with the red card you potentially get assess to two pokes on the opponents team while all they get to see is a standard deo-d set.

4That's not how the word rest was being used. Go back and use some contextual clues on that one. In the mean time, I guess I'll reply by reminding you swagger is banned.

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1. That set is in no way like Physically Defensive Mew. They perform very different roles and are only in "common" because of typing and ability to set up Stealth Rocks. Colbour Berry is for all Dark moves in the tier. It includes Dark Pulse Blastoise, Hydreion, Absol, Weavile, etc etc. The list goes on. It is not limited to, or only useful for those two situations. Usage Statistics are garbage. They don't hold any weight ever.

2. Situation.
Deo-D dies, you send a mon to beat whatever mon KO'd Deo. That mon needs to revenge kill AND beat the spinner/defogger. Otherwise the Spin/Defog gets off. There is no extra switching there. If you switch any more you give off a free spin/defog. Weavile beats the defoggers. But not Tenta/Donphan/Blastoise. Weavile has to be out BEFORE the defogger in order for that to work.

3.
The point of Red Card is not to scout. It's a really shitty scouting item anyway. If that is your main purpose you need to change your strategy. The purpose of Red Card is to get out whatever mon can beat Deo-D in hopes to forcing a switch into something it can stack more layers against.

4. I'm aware of the fact that Swagger is banned. It was merely to establish mechanics that I thought you had mixed up. The rest thing was a misunderstanding. I get that, I reread and understood. That being said, Magic Coat is also not that great a move in UU in my opinion. You don't get much utility out of it. Deo has much better options. I also wasn't twisting your words. I even clearly asked for an explanation because at the time that sentence was too vague for me so I don't understand how misunderstanding a post and asking for clarification is pointless in intelligent conversation. Of course if you are not referring to my misunderstanding as twisting your words that was irrelevant.

And because your other post was so short I'm not quoting it, but I never said it was the end all be all best set. I said that it was my opinion.

@Rage.
Emp is not a mon to sleep on. Running a set similar to the old Agility+Petaya set Emp can run this gen with Defog. It is definitely not as effective, for the most part, as the other Defiant abusers, but it can catch people off guard and do great damage.
And the Deo-D's having 4mss is true. The suicide leads typically don't want anymore than what they have.

But because this discussion, or lack thereof is derailing I want to get back on topic. I wanna know what you guys, all 2 of you that are here (smh UU community. Volc discussion is trash too), think about Dual Screens Deo. It's my personal favorite because it's so fkin fat and lives for ages with Recover. It paves way for many set up mons like Volc, Scoli, and Luc (and standard offensive mons) to set up (or destroy things) comfortably at times they otherwise wouldn't. The base 90 speed is also great as it gets Screens up pretty fast and has the ability to maintain some sort of offensive pressure with Seismic Toss/Night Shade or cripple offensive threats with Twave, and even Taunt Defoggers to keep screens up.

I'm trying to build a good team around DScr DeoD, but having laddered a bit, I somehow miss the hazards. While it's true that Screens can help Lucario set up, it would be able to kill potential rkillers like Victini /Hydreigon and walls like Def Mew / Slowbro with SR and Spikes up. Doublade isn't killed even after the hazards but can however been worn down because no recovery, and yes Hydreig isn't ohkoed after SR, but it may have already switched in and gets killed after 2 SR, otherwise Luc wouldn't boost, but rather just spam attacks. Even unboosted Adamant LO Extreme Speed is nice to have in order to revenge something, which hazards damage is a nice help for too. But wait, I'm drifting too far to
Lucario and away from DeoD. I found some 'mons that do profit more from DScr DeoD, like Crawdaunt, since it doesn't need Sash anymore and LO finds use, so it is a better wallbreaker and lg sweeper. Scolipede also isn't quite easy to rkill and might sweep easier, since it has speed boost, so his stabs and coverage is fast enough to act like Luc's Espeed, just much stronger. I'm currently more convinced by Spikes / SR, because it allows to break past more walls and kill revengekillers, but that maybe changes since I'm playing with Screens atm.

Having battled with Screens DeoD more, I'm now fully unconvinced of it. The screens are up one time of the battle in practice. D-O-D cannot give the screens turns away to regain health. Also the setup sweeper must switch in before the screens outrun. Sacking DeoD takes to much time since its so bulky. Hence you must outright switch Luce/Craw/w.e. in which negates the effect of Screens because you take the damage twice. So I find the discussion should go on (let it also go on, i don't want a vote to come if any pro-ban players are too lazy to post, also here are no proban players, 2 on fence and 1 anti ban giving a clear antiban 10dence) with the hazards utilising set/s.

the discussion is really disappointing so far in all honestly, lacking dicussion and honestly the arguments are rather poor.

well-constructed teams with deo-d will have a method of preventing spinners/defoggers removing hazards, whether it be by offensive force or in terms of sableye (which prevents mew, donphan, bulky salamence, empoleon, forretress, tentacruel almost always, and it also gives problems to latias and blastoise as well, as spdef sableye can take a draco meteor from latias essentially winning 1v1 with latias). obviously sableye wont always safely be in against these pokemon to taunt them or burn them, it still is fairly likely. regarding offensive pressure, some pokemon are capable of getting a free turn to setup if something comes in to defog (volcarona, scolipede, lucario, thundurus-t, etc.) and may completely prevent them from defogging. the need for a defiant user or competitive user or w/e, is completely unnecessary, as the users of it in the tier are unviable, or they have better sets to run (defiant physical empoleon is terrible, poor attack stat, slow, poor priority when compared to sucker punch from bisharp,disappointing physical movepool overall, etc.).

listing pokemon that are capable of doing heavy damage on deoxys-d doesn't prove much, deoxys-d doesn't always have to lead if pokemon which harm it are used, and even if it does, deoxys-d is still almost guarenteed to get up at least stealth rock and not have problems keeping them on the field, which most sr users cannot claim (lo scolipede, which is the best set usually ohkos tho, that and band weavile are the only pokemon that can outspeed and potentially ohko deoxys-d), and if played well (as in not leading against the pokemon which damage it), deo-d is easily capable of setting up sr and spikes which is extremely useful on offensive teams. only absol, if kept alive is truly capable of preventing deo-d from setting up hazards. also since when do sd scolipede run adamant, unless you like being outsped by latias, mega medicham, victini, and hydreigon 1v1.

i dont see how deo-d has 4mss at all, i've always ran taunt / magic coat / sr / spikes and it's worked perfectly fine, deoxys-d performs best on offensive teams and it's generally used to just setup hazards to make it easier for teammates to ohko or 2hko and outspeed other pokemon, recover generally isn't necessary unless it's being used on a balanced or defensive team. the item deoxys-d generally depends on the teammates (assuming offensive teams), but it can run red card mental herb and colbur berry well.

dual screens deo-d shouldn't be discussed at all honestly, or not have an impact on the final decision of deoxys-d's status in the tier, other pokemon do it better like uxie, latias, and azelf which are faster and have a form of suicude to transition more easily into a setup sweeper (or even preventing defog).

@meeps
Basically every recent suspect discussion has had this same lack of discussion. I don't remember where it started but they have been lackluster here, in NU, LU, and Monotype. That's not so much a here problem as it is a community problem.

1st Para:
The same can be said about teams facing Deo-D. Well constructed/well played teams can get rid of the hazards relatively easily as well. That argument can work both ways and I don't think it really favors any side. Both the want to remove hazards and the want to prevent removal of hazards can be equally abused by both sides. The whole Defiant/Competitive argument was working in favor of Deo-D. Basically my point in saying that was that these abusers are not great but their surprise factor can result in denting teams or scoring a few KO's.

2nd Para:
Agree completely.

3rd Para:
The teams I build tend to be bulkier/balanced so that Recover slot causes a lot of 4mss for me. I never had a liking for Magic Coat on Deo-D in UU, but I am typically fine with Rocks/Spikes/Recover/Taunt. I would like to also run Twave on some teams and Stoss/Shade on other sets. I guess I just meshed everything together. Deo-D still plays incredibly well on balanced and defensive teams and shouldn't just be for what it does for offensive teams whether that be sets or just effects in general.

And I don't see why Dual Screens shouldn't be mentioned. It's a possible set and isn't something like NP Deo-D. It has its niche as a screener and shouldn't be completely discounted (It has a pretty decent stall breaking set too).

Deoxys-D has become notorious for its ability to stack up hazards quite easily and having enough bulk to stop other pokemon from setting up rocks, setting up an offensive move or just tank enough hits to get a Rocks and 1/2 layers of spikes on the field before falling, allowing one of its teammates to come in for the revenge kill and abusing the residual damage every pokemon has to take.

One of the best ways to deal with Deoxys-D is to switch in MegaToise on it, spinning away the hazards and threatening to 2HKO it with Dark Pulse, then switching in again after activating Red Card. Spinblocking won't work because MegaToise beats every Ghost in 1v1, but its a good sacrifice to wear down the turtle so you can revenge kill and put enough offensive pressure on the team. I assume offensive pressure because this the best playstyle for Deoxys-D is offensive, preferably HO.
The other is by running Latias, the only Defogger who is impervious to most hazards and reaches a speed tier good enough to hit Defog and help the team, outspeeding Deoxys-D.

But now begin the problems. First, not every team runs MegaToise, either for personal taste or just other options for a Mega Spot. If the player chooses to run other spinners, all of them are going to have an hard time beating some ghosts, the most notorious being Sableye, who can stop recovery, burn, punish high Attack stats like Donphan's or use Knock Off. As for Defoggers, reaching an high speed tier and maintaining offensive pressure for Latias means it will often act as a sacrificial poke for the sake of helping the team, and while Mew has more bulk than it, it gets hit with Spikes and acts as Taunt and Substitute bait. Another thing is that Deoxys-D also has access to Recover, which means it can stack up hazards at a different part of the game.

This, along with other things, make Deoxys-xD help some specific playstyles and make them too dominant and easy to abuse, which in our opinion, is enough for it to banned from XY UU.