For all those who perceive that zanjeer and other forms of azadari is not good for preaching shia islam, i advise you to read this interview with Antoine Bara, a christian writer, who says

Q9:What is your view of the ritual gatherings held by Shi’a every year to remember Imam Hussein?A: I consider them a model for remembering the Al-Taf tragedy where pangs of conscience return and, in turn, faith is re-born in souls via supporting the continuity of the cause of Imam Hussein.

Q10: how do you honestly perceive the Shi’a rituals practised in these gatherings such as slapping, blood Shedding,mourning,and the like?A: I think they contribute much in reactivating the memory and conscience since you enact the event without hurting the others. This leaves you with the holy relic of faith throughout your life. When you slap your body, you punish it morally for not being there at the time of Imam Hussein (Peace be upon him). It also means that you are ready to sacrifice yourself and everything you have to join the march of Imam Hussein. As for the blood-shedding rituals, Ibelieve it is a symbolic message stating that you are prepared to sacrifice your blood for Imam Hussein(Peace be upon him)which is truly a great and effective message.

This from a christian!!!!! Wake up shias.

Do not fall into the trap of wahabis who have come in the disguise of shia maulanas. Having studying in iran does not necessarily mean you have knowledge. or working in the office of the marjae.

i end by a quote from Anoine BaraAntoine Bara: You Shi’a do not appreciate the value of Imam Hussein!

Do not fall into the trap of wahabis who have come in the disguise of shia maulanas.

Unnecessary.

Who is Christian Antoine Bara? Google search just turns up two results and both from the http://www.mksileicester.org.So now you believe this Christian nobody but turn against a shia Alim who speaks what the marja speak?

Wake up shias

very true!Wake up ad see what you are doing! insulting ulama, threatening them, forcing your will over Islam.

The educated man has the right to manipulate the ignorant, if the ignorance of the of the ignorant is due to his own ignorance.

Who is Christian Antoine Bara? Google search just turns up two results and both from the http://www.mksileicester.org.So now you believe this Christian nobody but turn against a shia Alim who speaks what the marja speak?

First i would i like to say being on internet and that too on google search doesnt means anything. Can you search for our resident Aalim on google you will find only one that too on Dartabligh so what does you mean.What bro Habari means is that even Non Muslim had great view over zanjeer so u refer to your attachment of reply from Ayatullah Sistani and decide yourself.Dont be harsh its good to discuss , our Jamaat placed the quotes of Mahatma Gandhi and others (non muslim)for Imam Hussein a.s. is it wrong.I went thru ur posts about Alam as well it seems u r against that too (it seems might be you not so plz tell if so)

Who is Christian Antoine Bara? Google search just turns up two results and both from the http://www.mksileicester.org.So now you believe this Christian nobody but turn against a shia Alim who speaks what the marja speak?

I did a google search myself to confirm if what you said is true or not. The image below is a screen picture of my result and speaks for itself. As you can see, i got 233 results and NOT 2

First i would i like to say being on internet and that too on google search doesnt means anything.

It does in today's time.

What bro Habari means is that even Non Muslim had great view over zanjeer so u refer to your attachment of reply from Ayatullah Sistani and decide yourself.

true, Christian Antoine Bara believes zanjeer to be good. He is one person against thousands of others who dont.During my time on forums such as these, I have talked to non-muslims. I say with certainty that Islam is endangered due to zaneer. Ayatullah khamenei annd Lankarani clearly state that zanjeer and qama zani misrepresents Islam.

Africa usage is only 5%. does that mean that knowledge is confined to these only 19% of the world's population. because according to you only google says the truth. by the way, not all of those 19% use google. What about the remaining 81% who dont have access to the net? does that mean they dont have any knowledge?

If a blind man does not see the world it does not mean that the world does not exist. If a deaf can not hear does not mean sound doesnot exist. If something is not found on google {or the whole of internet for that matter} doesnot mean it does not exist.I tried looking for my great-great-great-great grandfather on google. i didnt find him. does it mean he does not exist. [you try to look for yours and all those who read this post. did you find him]

true, Christian Antoine Bara believes zanjeer to be good. He is one person against thousands of others who dont.During my time on forums such as these, I have talked to non-muslims. I say with certainty that Islam is endangered due to zaneer. Ayatullah khamenei annd Lankarani clearly state that zanjeer and qama zani misrepresents Islam.

Nothing wrong, however if these people start speaking things that go AGAINST Islam such you should not belie them. Thier words are to be used as opinons not laws.

It seems you have not read the interview nor the book. You are biased against him

Q7: This statement raises many questions. How come you are Christian and at the same time confirm that Islam is the true religion and that Christ prophesised the appearance of Prophet Muhammad and his grandson ImamHussein (Peace be upon them). Explain to us how you understand the terms Christianity, Islam,Shi’ism?

A: Christianity is one of the stages of the one total religion which has come after Judaism and preceded Islam.Islam is the religion that complements all religions. Since Judaism was theoretical and Christianity was purely spiritual,Is l am came to mend these shortcomings. In the end, we are all Muslims because we all believe in the one God, the Torah, the Bible and the Quran. Shi’ism is the highest degree of the love of God. It is a natural state for all who love the family of the Prophet(Peace be upon him and his pure family), who are the descendants of the Prophet Muhammad and Ali (Peace be upon them). Shi’ismi s the pride of humanity. Any one in the world can be a Shi’a by virtue of the greatness of following the pure family of the Prophet (Peace be upon them) in order to preserve the beauty of his faith.

How is this against islam or shiism for that matter?

by the way, please reply to my two posts one concerning the definition of bidat and the previous post. Also, who is your marjae? According to the rulings, you are not supposed to shift to different marjaes TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS. are you aware of this ruling or not?

The person you talked about, is from Europe. If the person is not well known, it could be just nobody. Did you know that Adam Simon, a non believer thinks zanjeer is barbaric. Would you take his word? No, because he probably is some nobody who just airs his opinion. he same can be said for your Christian friend.

I tried looking for my great-great-great-great grandfather on google

Your great-great-great-great grandfather probably died b4 the internet was created.

Also, who is your marjae? According to the rulings, you are not supposed to shift to different marjaes TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS. are you aware of this ruling or not?

I am not obliged to tel you who my mara is. It is a private issue. All I did was quote from three great, marja all of whom supported my viewpoits.(Ayatullah Sistani, Khamenei, Lankarani)

The educated man has the right to manipulate the ignorant, if the ignorance of the of the ignorant is due to his own ignorance.

From my talks with people from various walks of life and from what i have seen (although the numbers of ppl I have spoken to and the number of events I have seen are limited and hence perhaps not enough for a general view), I can say with a lot of surety that should you talk to enough people and study various forms of media, you will see that the majority of times Zanjeer is mentioned, it is, sadly, branded negatively.

I see the danger of this conversation leading to a comparison of how many positive and negative views there are. This will lead to many of us posting links that lead to such media. And we do not want to promote such a propoganda.

Brother Muhammad and Brother Habari Mpya

I think dwelling and arguing on the intricacies and semantics is not only a waste of time but it may deter to diligent reader from having any faith in the thread, like it does to me.

Just like one cannot say from quoting just one person that the whole non-shia-world is taking zanjeer to be a barbaric tradition and hence, in the words of the office of Aga Sistani (in reference to a question posed from someone in Pakistan):

So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-shia muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided

One can also not say that the whole non-shia-world reveres Zanjeer by quoting one person either

Habari Mpya wrote:

Do not fall into the trap of wahabis who have come in the disguise of shia maulanas. Having studying in iran does not necessarily mean you have knowledge. or working in the office of the marjae.

Brother, I would like to advice you to not jump into conclusions (I hope it is conclusions without thought). Ascribing something to someone without being sure (tohmat) is a serious issue and should not be taken lightly. It is the habit of hypocrites and the wahabis themselves to point to other believers and call them various titles including kaafirs even when one can never truly be sure of what the other has in his/her heart. A shia brother should not put tohmat on anyone, let alone another shia brother

The point here is that everyone has his/her own opinion. we can listen to them but not a must we follow them.everyone of us follows a particular marjae and are obliged to follow the particular marjae. aga seestanis ruling was for a particular situation in pakistan and applies only in pakistan and not to the rest of the world. even in that ruling he has not said that zanjeer is haram, as bro mahdi is trying to say.assuming aga khamanei has said that zanjeer is haram, then it is only for his followers.

plus, for the point of negative branding, hizbullah is potrayed as a shia militant force bent on causing mischief in the middle east. why dont u first stop hizbullah, which is present throughout the year and then come to zanjeer, which happens for only 30-60 mins a year.Aga sadr is potrayed as a radical shia cleric bent on causing violence in iraq. point being, negative branding will always be there. its not a must we listen to them.

plus, i have gone through the news media, such as bbc. cnn, sky france24, the ones that u ppl takl abt. these news media only show the zanjeer and say that it is a shia ritual to commorate the martydom of imam hussein (a.s). how is this negative branding?

So instead of fighting amongst ourself, why dont u form a media that portrays the shia view? to remove the negative branding.

If you study Aga Sistani's reply perhaps you may reach a conclusion that I reached (perhaps you may not, and thats your right)

As per my review of his response, especially of the last sentence which i quoted before, it seems to me that it is a very general ruling (as opposed to being just for Pakistan), provided the circumstances are similar as to those mentioned in his response.

You will ask how the situation is similar. Well, the issues has definitely caused 'misunderstandings' in dar hasnt it?

As for your making comparison between Zanjeer and other acts, I would like to point out that there are many levels of acts in Islam, namely:

Haraam - Not permissible. If done, is a sinMakrooh - recommended not to be done. If not done, SawaabHalaal - PermissibleMustahab - Permissible and recommended. If done sawabMubah - neither forbidden nor recommended, and so religiously neutral.

Now as per my understanding, Zanjeer falls under the Mubah category and in cases where there is danger (whether physical or as per reply from Aga's office) can become Haraam.

Comparisons (yours as well as others) include Jihad for self preservation (i.e Hizbullah), Mutah and so on. Mutah is Mustahab, Jihad is wajib. In wajib and mustahab one cannot stop because of what the rest of the world thinks because these are integral parts of Islam

However Islam is not a secluded religion. We are to live among people and do tabligh to them. And therefore it makes sense that mubaah and even halaal (and maybe even mustahab) acts can be recommended to not be done should they bring any harm to the religion at large.

The situation here is not the same as the uproar was caused not by the issue of zanjeer (as it was in pakistan) but by degenerative remarks of the shaykh of our 4th Imam. Hence, the ruling cannot be applied here. and as that ruling was only specifically for pakistan, you are supposed to get a new ruling, even if the situation is similar; as you are trying to imply.

With the matter of hizbullah, it is a political war. hizbullah themself claim that if they get sheba farms, htey will be at peace with israel. And as per shia school, only the representative of Allah can call for Holy War. ao the issue of defaming shiism by hizbullah still remains.

Now as per my understanding, Zanjeer falls under the Mubah category and in cases where there is danger (whether physical or as per reply from Aga's office) can become Haraam.

Can you explain this statement? Because NOT a single marjae has proclaimed it haram (apart from khamanei and it applies not to people who do his taqleed). can you show me a ruling from the aga which applies to the world where he has it is haram? An advice, In matters of religion never jump to your own conclusion.

Habari Mpya wrote:The situation here is not the same as the uproar was caused not by the issue of zanjeer (as it was in pakistan) but by degenerative remarks of the shaykh of our 4th Imam. Hence, the ruling cannot be applied here. and as that ruling was only specifically for pakistan, you are supposed to get a new ruling, even if the situation is similar; as you are trying to imply.

Thats your opinion. My opinion is as stated above.

Once again please do not point fingers and put tohmat for you will be answerable.

I find it hard to believe that you are claiming the saga and uproar is not with regards to the issue of Zanjeer!

If you are saying that the ruling does not apply even if similar conditions are met elsewhere kindly provide reference to your source from which we can make such an assumption

Habari Mpya wrote:With the matter of hizbullah, it is a political war. hizbullah themself claim that if they get sheba farms, they will be at peace with israel. And as per shia school, only the representative of Allah can call for Holy War. ao the issue of defaming shiism by hizbullah still remains.

Once again thats your opinion. (which obviously defers from mine)

No one said that Islam has nothing to do with politics (or are you claiming that?) If you are claiming that then please start a new topic and we can present our views on that issue.

Self-preservation is the basic right of each human being, and be it in palestine or lebanon, if someone is preserving themselves, then that is a god given right. It will be haraam for them if they dont. Are you saying they should not fight and its unislamic to fight?

As you may be aware, majority of the Islamic world is in support of their (hizbullah) movement and a large number of the non-islamic world is also sympathetic. So even if what they are doing was not wajib,(it is wajib as i explained above) you could still not compare it to Zanjeer (which is not wajib or mustahab) which is practiced by a minority of the Shia, who are a minority in the Muslim-world.

Habari Mpya wrote:

Now as per my understanding, Zanjeer falls under the Mubah category and in cases where there is danger (whether physical or as per reply from Aga's office) can become Haraam.

Can you explain this statement? Because NOT a single marjae has proclaimed it haram (apart from khamanei and it applies not to people who do his taqleed). can you show me a ruling from the aga which applies to the world where he has it is haram? An advice, In matters of religion never jump to your own conclusion.

Why dont you refer to my post and agree that the comparisons you have made are baseless and of totally different things as per religion

As for circumstances when Zanjeer becomes haraam, one which has been mentioned by almost all marjae is when 'there is fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb'

Or are you claiming that even in such a circumstance it does not become haraam to perform zanjeer?

Habari Mpya wrote:(apart from khamanei and it applies not to people who do his taqleed).

Have you made a type error in the above? You seem to be saying that Aga Khameni's (may Allah grant him a healthy long life) ruling doesnt apply to even those who do his taqleed?

Habari Mpya wrote:An advice, In matters of religion never jump to your own conclusion.

So far everything we have been discussing, and truly almost everything on the Ask Discussion Forums are our opinions based on the little knowledge we have. Inshallah we will not be jumping to any conclusions without reason and logic, and Inshallah we shall keep in mind the akhlaq that our aimmah (A.S) have asked us to observe

I find it hard to believe that you are claiming the saga and uproar is not with regards to the issue of Zanjeer!

If you are saying that the ruling does not apply even if similar conditions are met elsewhere kindly provide reference to your source from which we can make such an assumption

The uproar started when the shaykh said that the chadars of the holy household was not snatched. that they had their hair covered. Upon being asked regarding the chadar not being snatched , he said that "just use logic where was the ghayrat of Imam Zaynul Abideen (AS) when this was being done. He was told it was just as Hz Ali (AS) had remained quiet, being on mazile imtehaan, when the door was broken on Hz Fatma Zahra (SA) and Hz Mohsin (AS) became shaheed in the womb of Hz Fatma Zahra (SA) thereon he mentioned the concept of HZ Mohsin (AS) does not exist. We asked where did u get this from and he said see kitab ul irshad of shaykh mufid." At that time since the book was not with any of us so we could not reply. On refering to the book it was found that what the shaykh had told us was incorrect.

Once again thats your opinion. (which obviously defers from mine)

No one said that Islam has nothing to do with politics (or are you claiming that?) If you are claiming that then please start a new topic and we can present our views on that issue.

Self-preservation is the basic right of each human being, and be it in palestine or lebanon, if someone is preserving themselves, then that is a god given right. It will be haraam for them if they dont. Are you saying they should not fight and its unislamic to fight?

I never said that islam has nothing to do with politics. present day diplomacy started at the house of saqifa after the death of the holy prophet . what i said was political war cannot be classified as jihad.

As you may be aware, majority of the Islamic world is in support of their (hizbullah) movement and a large number of the non-islamic world is also sympathetic. So even if what they are doing was not wajib,(it is wajib as i explained above) you could still not compare it to Zanjeer (which is not wajib or mustahab) which is practiced by a minority of the Shia, who are a minority in the Muslim-world.

I should remind you that the ahlul-sunna does not support hizbullah in any way; as might have been seen in the recent israel-hizbullah war. but, i think for the matter at hand, we should drop this topic.

As for circumstances when Zanjeer becomes haraam, one which has been mentioned by almost all marjae is when 'there is fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb'

Or are you claiming that even in such a circumstance it does not become haraam to perform zanjeer?

If you read the ruling of pakistan [that you so claim that it applies here. the uproar was caused by degradatary remarks of the shaykh concerning our 4th Imam. while in pakistan, a fight had occured between followers of khamanei and seestani, see the difference here. Maybe you should send an email to his excellency EXPLAINING WHAT HAPPENED HERE. Please include the degradatary remarks used by the shaykh for our 4th Imam together with other remarks that he made concerning the holy household and azadari. ] it uses the word "avoided"; nowhere has the marjae used the word haram.

On the birth of Imam Hussain(as), when Angel Gabriel informed that this child would be one day be martyred, Lady Fatima(as) wept and asked the Prophet(saww) who will be there to mourn for him? , The Prophet(saww) assured her that group of people shall arise and will mourn her child till the day of Judgement, and he said this in a POSITIVE MANNER. No where did he state that Shias shall indulge in Haram acts, when they will mourn for Imam Hussain(as).

Habari Mpya wrote:(apart from khamanei and it applies not to people who do his taqleed).

Have you made a type error in the above? You seem to be saying that Aga Khameni's (may Allah grant him a healthy long life) ruling doesnt apply to even those who do his taqleed?