So I've got a great idea, but before I develop it, important question: How restrictive are you on applying the Paladin's Code? GMs go all over the spectrum on what breaks the code or not, what counts as as 'associating' with Evil...basically, if I want to play a Paladin, do I have any leeway or is Stick Up The Ass a class feature?

A strict Lawful Good code of conduct is essential!That's what I love about the Paladin class.

The only illumination in the moonless night was from the stars, and the only sounds in the filthy back alley came from the shuffling of feet, the occasional muffled swear, and the steady clicking of lockpicks. Joey Three-Thumbs was getting antsy - the new kid wasn't a bad sort, but he was awfully slow. And on a night like this, being slow could get them all caught or killed. It was going to be the biggest score in months, and Joey was glad all his rivals had caught mysterious illnesses and been unavailable to lead the mission tonight - thoughtful of them to save him some work.

Iron Krunk and Dancing Daggers Dave - the guild's two most dangerous enforcers - stood guard while the newbie...Evan? Varian? Something with a V...methodically worked away one lock at a time from the mayor's back door. This was his test, his initiation heist, which was why the guildmaster had sent Krunk and Dave for 'extra security' in case he turned out to be a flake or coward. But the Hextorites wanted the mayor dead, and they'd paid extra to have it look like a robbery gone wrong, which mean finder's keepers on anything left in the house. Naturally, Joey would be getting the lion's share of the pot, but if Ethan hurried up, he might get a few coins...finally.

The door creaked open, and Joey pushed ahead of Veren, Dave close on his heels. The mayor kept one overnight guard on duty, so the first order of business would be taking him out, before they went upstairs to the bedrooms. A soft thump came from behind, probably Krunk taking his frustrations out on the wall, but Joey had eyes only for the door ahead of him, and the poisoned blade in his fist. It opened silently, and he tiptoed towards the outlined figure of the guardsman sitting by the fire with his back turned...too easy...

Sudden light from all around blinded him for a moment - he spun, and there were half a dozen City Guard with weapons drawn lined against the walls. He saw Dave go down under a pile of three more...they'd been made somehow, set up! Probably betrayed by the churchmen, but Joey had eyes only for the exit where Krunk could cover his escape. He dodged the guards' swords, leaped over the flailing pile of bodies and limbs that was Dave and his captors, only to skid to a stop as the doorway filled not with Krunk, but the body and bared steel of the 'trainee thief'. "Joey Three-Thumbs, you are under arrest for tresspassing, attempted theft, and intent to commit murder. Surrender, and the Shining One's justice may smile on you."

His answer was a feral snarl at the betrayal, rushing forward with his blade ready. Valen Ironheart, Paladin of the Shining Order and deputized agent of the city guard, grinned cheerfully and brought his own sword up to meet the assassin. This bust had been too easy, he'd have to make a few more mistakes next time or else there'd be no challenge at all.

On that note, though, would you let me burn a feat slot for Devoted Inquisitor (feat from Complete Adventurer) while keeping everything else core-only? It adds a Save vs. Daze if I use Sneak Attack and Smite Evil on the same attack, but its main function is allowing me to multiclass freely between Rogue and Paladin. Without it, I'll have to stop taking Paladin levels once I take another Rogue level.

On that note, though, would you let me burn a feat slot for Devoted Inquisitor (feat from Complete Adventurer) while keeping everything else core-only? It adds a Save vs. Daze if I use Sneak Attack and Smite Evil on the same attack, but its main function is allowing me to multiclass freely between Rogue and Paladin. Without it, I'll have to stop taking Paladin levels once I take another Rogue level.

PHB Only. I know there's a ton of cool stuff in the splash books for everyone, but I like to keep things very basic.

Okeydoke. I'll plan on cutting off at Paladin 2 or 3 and going heavy Rogue after, depending....probably 3, because Aura of Courage is nice, but I don't need a mount and gimped TU and spells aren't worth it.

Neutral evil barbarian/sorceror (in a roughly 80/20 split to start, will gradually evolve towards more of a 60/40 or 50/50 split as she levels). I checked with Shadow to make sure that the sorceror aspect was okay, because obviously wizard wouldn't make much sense. She's a dark elf (half elf, half drow, I kind of made it up), but in terms of rules she'll just be considered as a regular elf to keep it all within the core rule set like Shadow asked.

Sae'Ka's cruelly serrated dagger didn't slice so much as it tore, and so it tore through the soft flesh of Wolfmarrow's throat as she held him from behind, his strength already having been sapped by the three stab wounds in his back, one of them right between his shoulder blades. The old warlord's lifeblood cascaded down over his chest, staining his white furs and marking the end of yet another roaming warband, though two more would surely spring up on the morrow to take its place. It was just as well, too, since Sae'Ka's band of misfits, monsters and rejects of society thrived on carnage and plunder.

Unceremoniously, she discarded the old man's carcass and removed her helmet, throwing that to the ground as well so that she could breathe more freely. The air was thick with the scents of death and gore and smoke, a couple of her raiders having already began setting fire to whatever wasn't worth taking while the rest rounded up the few survivors. Sae'Ka would keep them for herself and her men to have fun with - which some had already started doing - until they reached a city where she could sell them off at the slave markets. Sometimes she even found a potential recruit or two amongst them, usually those who were already prisoners or slaves before her arrival, but there didn't seem to be anyone like that in this sorry lot.

Every muscle in her body seemed to pulse and ache gratifyingly like they always did after a won battle. That fleeting, ambrosial feeling was like the most potent of drugs to her, and it was worth more than any amount of gold or weapons or slaves. The only trouble was that you couldn't hold on to it, it had to be payed for in blood; but then again, that was the fun part, wasn't it?

"A few 'o da boys got some scrapes 'n bruises, 'oh 'n we lost Thorny. Spear through the gut, had to put the poor sod outta his misery meself. Kept his boots 'n buckler, he won't be needin' em no more." Rhorkiff announced with a wide grin that showed off his several missing teeth, looking quite satisfied while he waved the dented metal buckler around as if he was getting used to its weight on his arm or something. If the death of his companion had affected him in the slightest, then he showed no signs of it, but Sae'Ka knew that - much like herself - Rhor couldn't have cared any less. They were all in it for themselves, and death was as common to them as the setting of the sun.

Sae'Ka pushed her matted silver hair out of her face and breathed in deeply for a few more seconds before replying, seemingly savoring the moment for just a little bit longer before getting back to reality.

"Good. Leave the dead to the wolves and vultures. And tell the boys to make it quick if they plan on sticking it to any of those bitches, I don't want to linger here long."

Cool beans, thanks very much for letting me in! Now I just have to sleep with one eye open, watching for those interparty conflicts. The world's all upside-down - if you CAN trust the rogue, who can't you trust?

It's more than if we're partied, I'm obligated to either convert you to Good, or if you won't convert, kill you. 'Making life difficult' is sadly a binary choice when the other option is losing all your class features, and that bio snipped doesn't have much hope for the 'convert' option. :/

I'm assuming from the mention of Waterdeep that it at least starts in the FR? If not, some of the fluff here won't work.

NG hf Cleric 1 (Deneir)/Rogue 1 (future advancement will all be as cleric)

Ianna sat cross legged on the floor of the room, trying to blank out the cold flagstones. The scroll was written in a heavily idiomatic Elven but she judged the writer to be Thayatan originally, based on some of his word choices and sentence structure. The poem itself wasn't outstanding but for the moment she was glossing over the contents of the scroll and focusing on the writing itself. She held it closer to the lantern for a moment to decipher a character.

"He misforms some of his glyphs. And he doesn't use terminal characters consistently." She eventually announced, trying hard to make it a confident statement rather than a tentative question. "Thayatan minor nobleman, taught Elven by a non-native speaker. The poem's written in Elven because he's decided that it is a more romantic language and will impress this..." she glanced at the scroll again, looking for the name "...this Trisa."

"Very good" her superior nodded "The ink itself was perfumed at one time though that has faded. However, I wouldn't expect you to notice that. For future reference, look how it has peeled from the scroll rather than flaked - that's an artifact of the scent adding, it makes the ink more viscous. But, as I say, very good.

Good enough, in fact, that I think we can allow yuo out into the world without worrying about you embarassing us." This last was added with a wry smile, he knew how much it would mean to her.

And mean something to her it did. As a street waif she'd been found in the priest's room when he woke up. She'd broken in to steal some of the books he was carrying but morning had found her sat entranced by the beautiful calligraphy and tracing unfamiliar alphabets with her finger. They'd phrased it as a punishment, her having to work for the temple for a while. But they had known from the start and she had realised soon after that the Temple of Deneir was where she belonged.

And now she was a fully fledged priestess of Deneir and was allowed out in the world. Both to work on His behalf out there and to find interesting examples of the calligrapher's and writer's art and - and this had been repeatedly stressed - to bring them back if they could be legally acquired.

It's more than if we're partied, I'm obligated to either convert you to Good, or if you won't convert, kill you. 'Making life difficult' is sadly a binary choice when the other option is losing all your class features, and that bio snipped doesn't have much hope for the 'convert' option. :/

Well, depending on how the story plays out, Valen may not even know that Sae'Ka has evil tendencies for some time. Especially if she's stranded with and surrounded by mostly non-evil characters, she'll probably be toning it down and behaving more in a chaotic neutral kind of way. And even if/when he finds out, I'm sure that solutions and workarounds can be thought of, there's no need to be so doom and gloom about it. Cheer up!

Working against a Paladin doesn't make you per se evil, no matter what Paladins may think.

Just to take an example from my proposed character - imagine there's some evil book about evilly summoning evil things to do evil. This book is evil, you with me?

A paladin - not necessarily Glyphstones - might think this thing should be burnt. I might think it should be sequestered in a library. I might even have been sent to make sure the paladin doesn't destory it (because its evil, sorry - forgot to mention that). But my actions aren't evil and his Detect Evil will register nothing.

Working against a Paladin doesn't make you per se evil, no matter what Paladins may think.

Just to take an example from my proposed character - imagine there's some evil book about evilly summoning evil things to do evil. This book is evil, you with me?

A paladin - not necessarily Glyphstones - might think this thing should be burnt. I might think it should be sequestered in a library. I might even have been sent to make sure the paladin doesn't destory it (because its evil, sorry - forgot to mention that). But my actions aren't evil and his Detect Evil will register nothing.

According to the GM:

Quote

Unknowingly associating with evil is fine, but willing and knowing tolerance is a violation. "

So while a paladin might think the book should be burnt, he can travel just fine alongside someone carrying the book without violating the code. If you're not actively using the book, you wouldn't be Evil.

Working against a Paladin does not make you Evil. Being Evil makes you work against a Paladin...by the GM's instructions and the Paladin's code itself, I can't work with anyone who pings on my Evildar. If you don't ping, I don't know/care...but Sae'Ka would unquestionably ping the first time she got caught in the sweep (even if he's not actively scanning), and then trouble starts. This is why I asked the GM how much flexibility I had in my Code, and so I'm really hoping the answer is more than originally stated.

This also makes the strict PHB limit unfortunate, because there are ways to get rid of the Detect Evil in splatbooks. For example, Champions of Valor has the Order of the Golden Lion substitution levels, which swap Detect Evil for Detect Magic (this would be awesome). The Harmonious Knight substitution levels, same book, swap Detect Evil for the ability to Inspire Courage like a Bard. The Vigilant Eye of Helm (same book) trades DE for the power to automatically sense which enemy in sight has the highest CR. I don't mind core-only, but splats are good for solving problems like this.

It was late and the place was packed. The lower level of the inn were full of roudy drunks, gamblers, and low lifes. While the second floor was devoid of people moving about. Anyone up there would be locked away in one of the many small rooms, fulfilling what ever desire they had come there looking for. What Roland had come looking for was a very specifc grouping of documents that he had been hired to find. He had tracked the current owner of said documents (a one sir Dumond Polis) to this location. An associate of Roland's was currently keeping Polis busy at the gambling tables with a modest sum of money Roland had given him.

Roland took longer then he would have liked to locate the proper room, but once he had it was a simple lock to pick, and in a flash he was in. The room looked like most and was decked out with what ever pleasures Polis had planned for later, but Roland had no time to wonder what half of them might be for. He began a quick search of the room and bags, but found nothing. After a while the only place he had yet to search was the small night stand by the bed.

The drawer on it was locked, which was a good sign in Roland's line of work. He bent down on one knee and pulled out his lock pick set and began to work away at the lock. It was proving to be a bit more challenging for him then the door. All of a sudden just as he felt as though he was making some progress, the door to the room burst open and Polis and two large men stepped into the room and stared at him kneeling on the floor. Looking a bit sheepish Roland stood up trying to think quickly. "Just doing a random security check sir. Yep this lick is secure against any forced entry" he said giving the night stand two reasuring raps on top with his fist.

As he rapped on the night stand a small secret compartment popped open revealing a small bundel of papers marked with a seal, which he recognized at once. He looked at the papers for a moment in awe of his dum luck, before remembering the men at the door. He slowly turned to look at their displeased faces "ah crap".

He began to move quickly, snatching up the papers in one hand even as Polis was screaming at his men to kill Roland. The first man came at him swinging a deadly looking long sword, but Roland easily ducked beneith it, grasped the handel of his rapier and pulled it free from its scabbard, and in the same motion drove the steel hand guard into the mans face with a vicious back hand strike. As the first rhug reeled away the second had closed the distance, Roland shifted his weight and moved his arm so it looked like the atrack was a thrust aimed at the mans right chest, but in an instant changed it to an upward slash that caught the man across one eye. With the second thug out of the way Roland kept moving, almost colliding with Polis as he made for the door. Their shoulders crashed together and Roland made a quick spin around Polis and was out the door and lost in the crowd downstairs before they could follow him. It wasn't long before he was out the front door and lost in the city streets stowing the documents in his bag, chuckling softly to himself, and clutching the money purse he had cut from Polis' belt as he ran past him.

The paladin's focus on good has always bugged me, actually. There's two aspects to his alignment. Why can't he Detect Chaos at will? Why is he allowed to perform chaotic actions? Associate with chaotics?

The paladin's focus on good has always bugged me, actually. There's two aspects to his alignment. Why can't he Detect Chaos at will? Why is he allowed to perform chaotic actions? Associate with chaotics?

*shrug* Just annoys me.

Tell me about it. I despise the Paladin's Code as it's written, though that's in part because I have a deep-seated dislike for Alignment in general; the Code breaks my fundamental rule of game design that Mechanics should not define Roleplaying. You should be free to roleplay however you like, but Paladins are the only class in the game (aside from Paladin variants) that permanently lose their abilities if they do not roleplay in a very specific manner.

Umm, not "permanently", atonement is possible. Barbarians lose their rage for going lawful, for what it's worth. And clerics are stripped of their abilities as paladins are, for violating their code. Druids likewise.

Well, I'm not sure about current game incarnations, but I think the Code served a very useful function in early versions of D&D (like plain AD&D) - the paladin was all advantages over the fighter, with no downside other than the strict alignment and roleplay requirements. I suppose there's something to be said to tying paladins to strict adherence to a particular god's code of conduct, rather than alignment, since they are walking billboards for their particular faith. Thus there could be paladins of any alignment, although even those with chaotic gods would need to actually exemplify their god's nature, and not rebel against it just because it's "the chaotic thing to do". :) I'd like to see more of this, because it encourages more conflict between good characters - two firm adherents of different sects, even if they both wish the general good, will have very different views of what that "good" is.

It'll be interesting to see how this is handled, certainly! I'd like to see both characters in play, and hope this can happen somehow.

Barbarians, Clerics, and Druids do have roleplay restrictions, but it's only the Paladin that has a defined mechanical list of 'if you do X, Y, or Z, welcome to Fighter Without Bonus Feats Town'.

Back when the Paladin was significantly more powerful than the fighter, it had its Code, and it also had much higher Ability requirements to be a Paladin in the first place.

3x+ paladins, though, are only minutely stronger than a fighter, if they're stronger at all (all those bonus feats add up, and they're better than the tiny number of Smites you get), and they're not even required to follow a specific god, just be Lawful Good. So the Code becomes a legacy white elephant, attached to the Paladin because 'Paladins must have a Code' rather than for any sensible reason.

One of the best Paladin homebrews I ever found was here - rather than having a Lawful Good code, it was effectively a 'build-your-own-Code' by choosing various Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic tenets (Mantles of Faith). As you leveled up, you chose new Mantles, gaining a more restrictive Code of Conduct in exchange for increasingly powerful abilities.

Except, for this campaign, I sort of feel your DetEvil does need nerfing. Not only because of Lithium's character idea, if it's approved, but because DetEvil does tend to spoil "you don't know who you can trust" setups, as in the original post. You wind up with all the traitors hanging around behind the paladin, and spinning in circles around him as he turns his Detect cone around in a sweep. It's a good setup for a farce, especially if the paladin looks like Charlie Chaplin, but I don't think that's what the GM's aiming for here. :)

It's possible we'd have access to items that counter it, although I gather we'll be without most or all of our equipment. But a ring or necklace of undetectable alignment might slip through, and is the sort of thing Lithium might be wearing, when travelling by public vessel rubbing shoulders with who knows what sort of riff-raff. I suppose, if she's dressed as in the image Lithium attached, no amount of sweet-talking and magical obfuscation would suffice! Though that's generous, at 2nd-level starting.

I would sooner see the GM bend the rules "just this once" (famous last words) to simply swap DetEvil for Inspire Courage or whatever, without going whole-hog and permitting a more complete variant such as those you mention from Champions of Valor. A single homebrew swap is easy to remember and understand, compared to learning a new class variant. But it's up to ShadowOfHeaven!

But what can I say. I'm bitter about paladins since an AD&D campaign I was running was ruined by a PC making appropriate, use of Detect Evil. The jerk. :)

Neutral evil barbarian/sorceror (in a roughly 80/20 split to start, will gradually evolve towards more of a 60/40 or 50/50 split as she levels). I checked with Shadow to make sure that the sorceror aspect was okay, because obviously wizard wouldn't make much sense. She's a dark elf (half elf, half drow, I kind of made it up), but in terms of rules she'll just be considered as a regular elf to keep it all within the core rule set like Shadow asked.

Sae'Ka's cruelly serrated dagger didn't slice so much as it tore, and so it tore through the soft flesh of Wolfmarrow's throat as she held him from behind, his strength already having been sapped by the three stab wounds in his back, one of them right between his shoulder blades. The old warlord's lifeblood cascaded down over his chest, staining his white furs and marking the end of yet another roaming warband, though two more would surely spring up on the morrow to take its place. It was just as well, too, since Sae'Ka's band of misfits, monsters and rejects of society thrived on carnage and plunder.

Unceremoniously, she discarded the old man's carcass and removed her helmet, throwing that to the ground as well so that she could breathe more freely. The air was thick with the scents of death and gore and smoke, a couple of her raiders having already began setting fire to whatever wasn't worth taking while the rest rounded up the few survivors. Sae'Ka would keep them for herself and her men to have fun with - which some had already started doing - until they reached a city where she could sell them off at the slave markets. Sometimes she even found a potential recruit or two amongst them, usually those who were already prisoners or slaves before her arrival, but there didn't seem to be anyone like that in this sorry lot.

Every muscle in her body seemed to pulse and ache gratifyingly like they always did after a won battle. That fleeting, ambrosial feeling was like the most potent of drugs to her, and it was worth more than any amount of gold or weapons or slaves. The only trouble was that you couldn't hold on to it, it had to be payed for in blood; but then again, that was the fun part, wasn't it?

"A few 'o da boys got some scrapes 'n bruises, 'oh 'n we lost Thorny. Spear through the gut, had to put the poor sod outta his misery meself. Kept his boots 'n buckler, he won't be needin' em no more." Rhorkiff announced with a wide grin that showed off his several missing teeth, looking quite satisfied while he waved the dented metal buckler around as if he was getting used to its weight on his arm or something. If the death of his companion had affected him in the slightest, then he showed no signs of it, but Sae'Ka knew that - much like herself - Rhor couldn't have cared any less. They were all in it for themselves, and death was as common to them as the setting of the sun.

Sae'Ka pushed her matted silver hair out of her face and breathed in deeply for a few more seconds before replying, seemingly savoring the moment for just a little bit longer before getting back to reality.

"Good. Leave the dead to the wolves and vultures. And tell the boys to make it quick if they plan on sticking it to any of those bitches, I don't want to linger here long."

I'm assuming from the mention of Waterdeep that it at least starts in the FR? If not, some of the fluff here won't work.

NG hf Cleric 1 (Deneir)/Rogue 1 (future advancement will all be as cleric)

Ianna sat cross legged on the floor of the room, trying to blank out the cold flagstones. The scroll was written in a heavily idiomatic Elven but she judged the writer to be Thayatan originally, based on some of his word choices and sentence structure. The poem itself wasn't outstanding but for the moment she was glossing over the contents of the scroll and focusing on the writing itself. She held it closer to the lantern for a moment to decipher a character.

"He misforms some of his glyphs. And he doesn't use terminal characters consistently." She eventually announced, trying hard to make it a confident statement rather than a tentative question. "Thayatan minor nobleman, taught Elven by a non-native speaker. The poem's written in Elven because he's decided that it is a more romantic language and will impress this..." she glanced at the scroll again, looking for the name "...this Trisa."

"Very good" her superior nodded "The ink itself was perfumed at one time though that has faded. However, I wouldn't expect you to notice that. For future reference, look how it has peeled from the scroll rather than flaked - that's an artifact of the scent adding, it makes the ink more viscous. But, as I say, very good.

Good enough, in fact, that I think we can allow yuo out into the world without worrying about you embarassing us." This last was added with a wry smile, he knew how much it would mean to her.

And mean something to her it did. As a street waif she'd been found in the priest's room when he woke up. She'd broken in to steal some of the books he was carrying but morning had found her sat entranced by the beautiful calligraphy and tracing unfamiliar alphabets with her finger. They'd phrased it as a punishment, her having to work for the temple for a while. But they had known from the start and she had realised soon after that the Temple of Deneir was where she belonged.

And now she was a fully fledged priestess of Deneir and was allowed out in the world. Both to work on His behalf out there and to find interesting examples of the calligrapher's and writer's art and - and this had been repeatedly stressed - to bring them back if they could be legally acquired.