On Friday's 9th innning double...isn't he taught to view Cox as he's approaching 2nd base and see if he's waving him to 3rd? I thought you were always taught to "pick up your coach"?

Anyone who was at the game see if Cox was waving him around or holding him?

Madvora

06-22-2008, 05:53 PM

On Friday's 9th innning double...isn't he taught to view Cox as he's approaching 2nd base and see if he's waving him to 3rd? I thought you were always taught to "pick up your coach"?

Anyone who was at the game see if Cox was waving him around or holding him?
I thought Hawk and DJ were saying that Cox was waving him on. I think Brian was just thinking about all the other recent base running mistakes, like AJ trying to stretch singles into doubles and Cabrera getting nailed at 3rd and he didn't want to push it. There were no outs and it was a split decision in his head. He was just trying to be safe. There was no split screen, so you really couldn't tell on TV where BA was in relation to the outfielder.

It's Dankerific

06-22-2008, 06:04 PM

You don't make the 1st out at 3rd base. But if you are BA, you're ****ed either way. stay on 2nd, should have been on 3rd. thrown out at 3rd, you're a ****ing moron who doesn't know even the most basic rules. actually GET a triple, still, don't you know the basic rules of baserunning????

UofCSoxFan

06-22-2008, 06:28 PM

You don't make the 1st out at 3rd base. But if you are BA, you're ****ed either way. stay on 2nd, should have been on 3rd. thrown out at 3rd, you're a ****ing moron who doesn't know even the most basic rules. actually GET a triple, still, don't you know the basic rules of baserunning????

You're not ****ed either way. If you listen to your base coach it is on him, no matter what moron fans may say.

If you make it into third standing up, which he would have, then you aren't ****ed either way. You're statement about actually getting a triple and sill not knowing baserunning makes no sense at all. No one is going to fault a guy for making it into the base where he should be.

I was at the game but didn't see if Cox was waving him, but yes Anderson should be picking him up about halfway between 1st and 2nd to see if he should go to third.

The old addage about never making the first or third out at first stems from the fact that with no outs you can just bunt him over anyways...which frankly doesn't really apply to this team so it is worth taking a slight risk (I stress slight in this case since he makes it easily unlesss a field monster grabs him on his way into third) to get in there with no outs.

So bottom line, Anderson wasn't in a no win situation...he's in a no lose situation if he listens to his coach and he's in a win situation if he does the right thing.

I'd be saying this if it was any other player on the team. That being said, if the coach isn't waiving him (I don't know if he was or not) or if Anderson hesitates and is in doubt, then yes the safe play is to pull up into second.

For the record Thome failed miserably in his at-bat too. Just terrible exectuation that inning after the moment right after Anderson made contact with the ball.

TDog

06-23-2008, 03:31 PM

Of course, if a runner doesn't believe he can safely reach third base or score when the third-base coach is waving him, he really should play it safe. The coach knows where the ball is, but doesn't know what is going on with the runner. Stopping at a coach's go sign (unless it's a case where a ball got away and the runner doesn't pick it up) doesn't approach the mistake of running through a coach's stop sign.

Tragg

06-23-2008, 03:32 PM

Of course, if a runner doesn't believe he can safely reach third base or score when the third-base coach is waving him, he really should play it safe. The coach knows where the ball is, but doesn't know what is going on with the runner. Stopping at a coach's go sign (unless it's a case where a ball got away and the runner doesn't pick it up) doesn't approach the mistake of running through a coach's stop sign.
+1

TomBradley72

06-23-2008, 04:02 PM

You're not ****ed either way. If you listen to your base coach it is on him, no matter what moron fans may say.

If you make it into third standing up, which he would have, then you aren't ****ed either way. You're statement about actually getting a triple and sill not knowing baserunning makes no sense at all. No one is going to fault a guy for making it into the base where he should be.

I was at the game but didn't see if Cox was waving him, but yes Anderson should be picking him up about halfway between 1st and 2nd to see if he should go to third.

The old addage about never making the first or third out at first stems from the fact that with no outs you can just bunt him over anyways...which frankly doesn't really apply to this team so it is worth taking a slight risk (I stress slight in this case since he makes it easily unlesss a field monster grabs him on his way into third) to get in there with no outs.

So bottom line, Anderson wasn't in a no win situation...he's in a no lose situation if he listens to his coach and he's in a win situation if he does the right thing.

I'd be saying this if it was any other player on the team. That being said, if the coach isn't waiving him (I don't know if he was or not) or if Anderson hesitates and is in doubt, then yes the safe play is to pull up into second.

For the record Thome failed miserably in his at-bat too. Just terrible exectuation that inning after the moment right after Anderson made contact with the ball.

You hit on my point...the only conversation I've heard around this was around BA's "judgement"...but to me the focus should be on Cox....if BA blew off the 3rd base coach...that's another discussion.

btrain929

06-23-2008, 04:27 PM

He probably had flashbacks of a few weeks ago when he hit a leadoff double and tried stretching it to 3 and got nailed. That's when he slammed his helmet into the ground in disgust. 9th inning, tied game, I don't blame him for being slightly cautious.

Runner on 2nd, 0 outs, at Wrigley. Most of the time, that runner will score. That particular time, he didn't.

voodoochile

06-23-2008, 05:09 PM

You don't make the 1st out at 3rd base. But if you are BA, you're ****ed either way. stay on 2nd, should have been on 3rd. thrown out at 3rd, you're a ****ing moron who doesn't know even the most basic rules. actually GET a triple, still, don't you know the basic rules of baserunning????But look at the bright side, BA. Brain dead stupidity or simply over aggressive, It's Dankerific will always have your back. It doesn't matter if you ever hit .250 or manage to get your K:AB ratio under 25%, ID will defend you at all costs. No need to actually succeed at your job, ID doesn't care about little things like that.

TDog

06-23-2008, 05:14 PM

....

Runner on 2nd, 0 outs, at Wrigley. Most of the time, that runner will score. That particular time, he didn't.

Do you know that for a fact? I don't know if the statement is true or not. Do you have numbers to show that how many times such runners have scored and how many times they have not? I know that often for and against the White Sox a runner on second with no one out does not score.

Of course, it seems like the runner should score.

I know that the overall major league percentages in past seasons for a runner on second with none out coming around to score are higher than for a runner on third with one out. I don't know how those percentages play out, however.

2906

06-23-2008, 05:14 PM

I don't know if it was mentioned in any of the other threads, but Brian wasn't running hard out of the box either.

Not piling on, and he's certainly not the only one who doesn't bust hard out of the batters box, but he was watching the flight of the ball instead of putting his head down and running. That as much as anything cost him an almost sure stand up triple.

Madscout

06-23-2008, 08:23 PM

On Friday's 9th innning double...isn't he taught to view Cox as he's approaching 2nd base and see if he's waving him to 3rd? I thought you were always taught to "pick up your coach"?

Anyone who was at the game see if Cox was waving him around or holding him?
Cox was waving at him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the decision to go or not. You don't make that out at third on the road with a tie game in the ninth, period. You just don't.

You're not ****ed either way. If you listen to your base coach it is on him, no matter what moron fans may say.

If you make it into third standing up, which he would have, then you aren't ****ed either way. You're statement about actually getting a triple and sill not knowing baserunning makes no sense at all. No one is going to fault a guy for making it into the base where he should be.

I was at the game but didn't see if Cox was waving him, but yes Anderson should be picking him up about halfway between 1st and 2nd to see if he should go to third.

The old addage about never making the first or third out at first stems from the fact that with no outs you can just bunt him over anyways...which frankly doesn't really apply to this team so it is worth taking a slight risk (I stress slight in this case since he makes it easily unlesss a field monster grabs him on his way into third) to get in there with no outs.

So bottom line, Anderson wasn't in a no win situation...he's in a no lose situation if he listens to his coach and he's in a win situation if he does the right thing.

I'd be saying this if it was any other player on the team. That being said, if the coach isn't waiving him (I don't know if he was or not) or if Anderson hesitates and is in doubt, then yes the safe play is to pull up into second.

For the record Thome failed miserably in his at-bat too. Just terrible exectuation that inning after the moment right after Anderson made contact with the ball.
Hindsight is 20/20. Thanks for putting the real culprit in there. Thome comes in, with a runner on 2nd tied in the 9th, and what does he do? Hit behind him? Put one in RF? No, he swings at the first pitch and pops up weakly. Thanks HR or nothing Thome, all Ozzie wanted was a ground ball or something out in RF.

He probably had flashbacks of a few weeks ago when he hit a leadoff double and tried stretching it to 3 and got nailed. That's when he slammed his helmet into the ground in disgust. 9th inning, tied game, I don't blame him for being slightly cautious.

Runner on 2nd, 0 outs, at Wrigley. Most of the time, that runner will score. That particular time, he didn't.
Great post. This has been and hopefully won't continue to be our worst flaw of the year. If we are not going to play small ball, and run the bases with speed, we need good situational hitting this year to suppliment the long ball. So far, the Sox get an F with RISP.

FedEx227

06-23-2008, 10:44 PM

Do you know that for a fact? I don't know if the statement is true or not. Do you have numbers to show that how many times such runners have scored and how many times they have not? I know that often for and against the White Sox a runner on second with no one out does not score.

Of course, it seems like the runner should score.

I know that the overall major league percentages in past seasons for a runner on second with none out coming around to score are higher than for a runner on third with one out. I don't know how those percentages play out, however.

Credit to TangoTiger, run expectancy:

Double, No Outs: .62
Third, 1 Out: .65

It's Dankerific

06-24-2008, 03:40 AM

But look at the bright side, BA. Brain dead stupidity or simply over aggressive, It's Dankerific will always have your back. It doesn't matter if you ever hit .250 or manage to get your K:AB ratio under 25%, ID will defend you at all costs. No need to actually succeed at your job, ID doesn't care about little things like that.

Wow, Thanks for finally writing a nice post about me Voodoo.

I'll always have a Sox player's back.

TDog

06-24-2008, 01:47 PM

Credit to TangoTiger, run expectancy:

Double, No Outs: .62
Third, 1 Out: .65

Of course, Third, 1 Out could include Double No Out, but I'm surprised the numbers are so close. In the 1990s, I saw a breakdown with Second, No Out being higher than Third 1 Out, but that included Lead-Off Walk, Stolen Base.

I'm not surprised both situations fail to score more than one-third of the time, but I thought it was closer to 50 percent.

Someone with a lot of time on their hands should break down the percentages for lead-off doubles followed bunts compared to lead-off doubles followed by teammates swinging away. A statistician in the early 1980s was criticizing Tony LaRussa's propensity for bunting runners over to third, sometimes in the first inning, showing that the strategy has a lower percentage than swinging away. I think for most hitters, advancing runners from second with a ground ball carries a higher probability of success anyway.

Madscout

06-25-2008, 10:26 AM

You're not ****ed either way. If you listen to your base coach it is on him, no matter what moron fans may say.

If you make it into third standing up, which he would have, then you aren't ****ed either way. You're statement about actually getting a triple and sill not knowing baserunning makes no sense at all. No one is going to fault a guy for making it into the base where he should be.

I was at the game but didn't see if Cox was waving him, but yes Anderson should be picking him up about halfway between 1st and 2nd to see if he should go to third.

The old addage about never making the first or third out at first stems from the fact that with no outs you can just bunt him over anyways...which frankly doesn't really apply to this team so it is worth taking a slight risk (I stress slight in this case since he makes it easily unlesss a field monster grabs him on his way into third) to get in there with no outs.

So bottom line, Anderson wasn't in a no win situation...he's in a no lose situation if he listens to his coach and he's in a win situation if he does the right thing.

I'd be saying this if it was any other player on the team. That being said, if the coach isn't waiving him (I don't know if he was or not) or if Anderson hesitates and is in doubt, then yes the safe play is to pull up into second.

For the record Thome failed miserably in his at-bat too. Just terrible exectuation that inning after the moment right after Anderson made contact with the ball.
Just like to further comment on this after the past three games. You are ****ed either way if you are Anderson, because you make one mistake like this, and Ozzie makes you ride the pine for a career minor leaguer for at least the next three games. You get thrown out a third, you can be damned sure it wasn't Cox's fault in Ozzie's eyes. You make third, well, your job is safe for another day. You stay at second, you are ok if Thome and Cabrera don't fail, and if they do, you're ****ed. Bench.

TomBradley72

06-25-2008, 11:03 AM

Just like to further comment on this after the past three games. You are ****ed either way if you are Anderson, because you make one mistake like this, and Ozzie makes you ride the pine for a career minor leaguer for at least the next three games. You get thrown out a third, you can be damned sure it wasn't Cox's fault in Ozzie's eyes. You make third, well, your job is safe for another day. You stay at second, you are ok if Thome and Cabrera don't fail, and if they do, you're ****ed. Bench.

Yep....big, bad, Ozzie has just destroyed BA. BA has now blown his 3rd opportunity to be the starting CF for the White Sox. In 2006, he given the entire 1st half to prove himself...what did he deliver? A .192 Batting Average across 182 ABs. In 2007, he (self described by BA himself) didn't have the right attitude or work ethic...and hit .118 before being sent down. In 2008, with Konerko injured, everyone slumping, he's been given 106 ABs to earn playing time...and delivered a .236 batting average. He's been given 522 ABs so far in his career...he's delivered .220-13-47. I've always been a huge BA fan and love his glove...but at some point he has to take advantage of the opportunities that he's given. It should be a wake up call to him that a guy like Wise is taking his playing time while Konerko is on the DL.

Somehow other young players (Quentin, Ramirez, Jenks, Floyd, Danks) have found a way not to be destroyed by the way Ozzie handles young players.

voodoochile

06-25-2008, 11:09 AM

Yep....big, bad, Ozzie has just destroyed BA. BA has now blown his 3rd opportunity to be the starting CF for the White Sox. In 2006, he given the entire 1st half to prove himself...what did he deliver? A .192 Batting Average across 182 ABs. In 2007, he (self described by BA himself) didn't have the right attitude or work ethic...and hit .118 before being sent down. In 2008, with Konerko injured, everyone slumping, he's been given 106 ABs to earn playing time...and delivered a .236 batting average. He's been given 522 ABs so far in his career...he's delivered .220-13-47. I've always been a huge BA fan and love his glove...but at some point he has to take advantage of the opportunities that he's given. It should be a wake up call to him that a guy like Wise is taking his playing time while Konerko is on the DL.

Somehow other young players (Quentin, Ramirez, Jenks, Floyd, Danks) have found a way not to be destroyed by the way Ozzie handles young players.

I agree. Though not as sold on him as some I always loved his glove. From the minute I saw him in CF I thought, "if this kid can hit league average, he'll be fine."

Unfortunately he can't and his 25% career K rate is something you'd prefer to see on a guy with close to double his career slg%

It's Dankerific

06-25-2008, 12:33 PM

Somehow other young players (Quentin, Ramirez, Jenks, Floyd, Danks) have found a way not to be destroyed by the way Ozzie handles young players.

This is ridicilous. Pitchers and hitters are different. I'd also like to point out how AWESOME Ramirez was until Uribe got hurt and he got to play EVERY day. What happened when Konerko was put on the DL? BA rode the bench.

There was a stretch in June where BA was batting over .300 (and everyone else was missing the ball). He then got sat the day after an off day, then sat again.

Its amazing how a stretch of for or 5 games can sink your average when that equals half a month of PT. Its also amazing how everyone else can hit .200 for months and its A-OK and BA can't hit .237 without being a failure in 100 at bats.

I'm going to root for Wise everytime he comes up and he's been taking advantage of the consecutive games he gets to play, but it certainly hasn't been a fair break for BA.

kittle42

06-25-2008, 12:44 PM

Let's just get Konerko back healthy, put Wise and Anderson on the bench or in the minors where they belong, and once again quiet down the stupid continuing debate this site has on this issue.

Zisk77

06-25-2008, 04:48 PM

This thread is the ultimate example of Irony.

A few weeks ago against KC in theat extra inning game BA lead off an inning with a line shot to the RC gap. DeJesus dove to cut the hit off and whiffed. BA tried for a triple and 2 perfect relays got him at 3b. Of course many here on the game thread criticised his base running.

Now he plays it safe a stays at second...and is criticised. :scratch:

Btw most baseball people (not fans) believe baserunners should not look at the 3b coach for balls that are right in front of them like the play in question (the 3b coach would be needed on a drive down the RF line or on a play where he is scoring-since his back would be to the play). The high school program I'm involved in would have the player making his own decision on a play in front of him (although us like Cox would probably still be waving or giving the stop sign as we would be excited).

The only criticism I could see for BA was if he was "cadillacing it" out of the box thinking he had a HR.

Madscout

06-25-2008, 04:52 PM

Yep....big, bad, Ozzie has just destroyed BA. BA has now blown his 3rd opportunity to be the starting CF for the White Sox. In 2006, he given the entire 1st half to prove himself...what did he deliver? A .192 Batting Average across 182 ABs. In 2007, he (self described by BA himself) didn't have the right attitude or work ethic...and hit .118 before being sent down. In 2008, with Konerko injured, everyone slumping, he's been given 106 ABs to earn playing time...and delivered a .236 batting average. He's been given 522 ABs so far in his career...he's delivered .220-13-47. I've always been a huge BA fan and love his glove...but at some point he has to take advantage of the opportunities that he's given. It should be a wake up call to him that a guy like Wise is taking his playing time while Konerko is on the DL.

Somehow other young players (Quentin, Ramirez, Jenks, Floyd, Danks) have found a way not to be destroyed by the way Ozzie handles young players.

Please don't compair these players to BA because they come from completely different situations. The Pitchers have been nursed along, something Ozzie has done very well. Jenks blows a save in the post season, and Ozzie finds him first and puts his arm around him and tells him everything is ok. Floyd has seen some ****ty outings, but always seemed to be thought ok. Quentin had to replace the great Pods, Ramirez the great Uribe, real pressure there. BA's situation is not even close to these.

I have no delusions about this. BA is not a hall of famer, not even close. But he is capable of hitting the league average, he is capable of becoming a decent hitter, and is already an Elite defender.

2906

06-25-2008, 07:02 PM

Quentin had to replace the great Pods, Ramirez the great Uribe, real pressure there. BA's situation is not even close to these.

It's the big leagues. There's pressure everywhere, every day. All three players you name faced significant pressure in different ways.

I root for Brian as much as anyone and want him to succeed but I don't think he needs excuses made for him. At this point, he'd be the first to say there's no excuses. He needs to perform when called upon, he's a major leaguer, he's got a role and he needs to perform. Otherwise, they'll find someone else.

JB98

06-25-2008, 07:07 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how some posters here truly believe Guillen is trying to sabotage Brian Anderson's career.

Anderson hasn't sat out the last three games because of that baserunning play. He is sitting out because he and Wise are platooning in CF until Konerko comes back.

And FWIW, Wise has made more of his opportunities than Anderson in the last six or seven games.

Anderson is in there tonight, and I imagine he'll play tomorrow too since the Dodgers have a lefty going.

Decisions are being made for baseball reasons, not personal vendettas.

TomBradley72

06-25-2008, 07:11 PM

I have no delusions about this. BA is not a hall of famer, not even close. But he is capable of hitting the league average, he is capable of becoming a decent hitter, and is already an Elite defender.

I don't disagree with your assessment at all. I take exception to anyone who choses to blame Ozzie for his slow progress. Maybe Ozzie hasn't been perfect, but by now (he's now in his 3rd season of being given enough opportunity to prove himself) BA should be doing better than .230's. Other guys like Ramirez, Quentin and Wise have been more successful at capitalizing on their playing time.

TomBradley72

06-25-2008, 07:18 PM

Btw most baseball people (not fans) believe baserunners should not look at the 3b coach for balls that are right in front of them like the play in question (the 3b coach would be needed on a drive down the RF line or on a play where he is scoring-since his back would be to the play). The high school program I'm involved in would have the player making his own decision on a play in front of him (although us like Cox would probably still be waving or giving the stop sign as we would be excited).

The only criticism I could see for BA was if he was "cadillacing it" out of the box thinking he had a HR.

Zisk77...thanks for this reply. You're actually getting to the heart of my original post...is it the player's judgement or is he supposed to be following the 3rd base coach's direction? I'm seen it taught both ways as far as a philosophy goes. I didn't judge BA either way for staying at 2nd...I was curious as to the role of the 3rd base coach in all of this.

Daver

06-25-2008, 07:24 PM

Please tell me this entire thread is a joke.

Because if it isn't it is beyond pathetic, and perhaps beyond sad.

Madscout

06-25-2008, 09:21 PM

Please tell me this entire thread is a joke.

Because if it isn't it is beyond pathetic, and perhaps beyond sad.
The joke of the thread is this: in a game where we are tied going into the ninth away, we are bitching about the guy who hit a lead-off double. Not the guy who poped up weakly to first, and not that guys that couldn't hit to bring him in from scoring position, the guy who got a lead-off ****ing double. Just insane.

Tragg

06-25-2008, 09:37 PM

in a game where we are tied going into the ninth away, we are bitching about the guy who hit a lead-off double. Not the guy who poped up weakly to first, and not that guys that couldn't hit to bring him in from scoring position, the guy who got a lead-off ****ing double. Just insane.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.