heavymetal:They just don't realize they are slowly destroying the United States from within with their rewriting of history, their manufactured disdain for the federal government, and the placing of induvidual greed over the common good of the nation.

And we are so very lucky that the current group of terrorists that are fighting the USA are such absolute morons. Can you imagine if these terrorists groups decided to donate to SuperPAC's to actively support these idiots? And then timed attacks to reinforce the fears of those morons? Imagine this scenario: from June 2012 to September 2012, Muslim terrorist groups funnelled millions of dollars to SuperPAC's that support Mitt Romney, particularly ones who wanted to play up how Obama doesn't support Israel as much as the Republicans want him to. Ad after ad with Obama's "gaffes" and "missteps" with Israel and with the Muslim world. Then in mid-October 2012, terrorist leaders launch enough attacks against Israel from Lebanon and the Palestinian territories that Israel has to respond with overwhelming force. Then Obama has to fight a political campaign against Mitt Romney while at the same time having to keep an extremely close eye on Israel. Romney can just hammer Obama over and over, and with terrorists funnelling money into his coffers it's a good bet that he'll win.

Then once Romney takes office, a terrorist leaks the fact that (X) Millions of terrorist dollars were used to pay for ad's to get Mitt Romney elected, and that the attack on Israel was done to get rid of Obama and elect Romney into office. Even better if it could be shown that they contributed to a large number of Republican candidates, not just Romney. Can you imagine just how much chaos that might cause in America?

Seriously, in about 200 years Americans are going to look back at this time in their history and marvel at how lucky they were that their enemies weren't smart enough to really hurt the USA.

jayhawk88:tenpoundsofcheese: Just curious, what were the major "lies" that he claimed?

Without even reading the book, I bet we can guess with at least with 75% accuracy:

- Jefferson was totally down with God and every scrap of Democracy he created was straight from Jesus' lips- No way Jefferson had Jungle Fever, and you're racist for thinking so- No really, Jefferson wanted 2012 America to bow in fear of Almighty God every hour of every day- And even if he didn't, he really wasn't as involved with the Founders as we're lead to believe, he mostly sat outside sniffing opium and killing puppies- The Louisiana Purchase was all Madison's idea. Also God's.

I found this on a site that's reasonably sympathetic to Barton, but which summarizes the arguments pretty well:The "quotes" are Barton's so-called "Lies people believe about Jefferson" and the (parens) are Barton's amazing discovered truths:

"Thomas Jefferson fathered a child with Sally Hemings" (The DNA test results are inconclusive and merely show a Jefferson was their father);"Thomas Jefferson Founded a Secular University" (The University of Virginia actually waived tuition for those training for the ministry);"Thomas Jefferson Wrote His Own Bible and Edited Out the Things He Didn't Agree With" (the book was actually a devotional for his own use and included miracles);"Thomas Jefferson was a Racist Who Opposed Equality for Black Americans" (Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but couldn't pay the heavy taxes required to do so by Virginia law);"Thomas Jefferson Advocated a Secular Public Square through the Separation of Church and State" (Jefferson actually promoted worship services at the Capitol and attended faithfully);"Thomas Jefferson Detested the Clergy" (only those who sided with England during the Revolution); and"Thomas Jefferson was an Atheist and not a Christian" (He certainly held a liberal view of the Bible but adamantly defended his belief in an active God and called himself a Christian).

Based on the reviews, I'm not sure what the kerfuffle was all about (nor why "kerfuffle" is a recognized word); These alleged "lies" about Jefferson are not as "widely believed" or accepted by any student of history, and the (truths) are not as shocking or suppressed as Barton seems to think. For instance, regardless of any DNA work, it's widely accepted Jefferson fathered several of Heming's children, based on the way they were treated by Jefferson during his own lifetime. And it's well-known Jefferson got caught in the classic planter's dilemma about whether to free his slaves as he morally wanted to do or to keep them as he was economically pressed to do. The whole religion thingy is only relevant today, as we all know most of the Founders were deists, a theology quite in keeping with the times.

This sounds like a classic conservative approach: Take a discussion ("did Jefferson father Hemings' children?), make a controversial debate about it where none ever existed (OMG! Some people believe Jefferson didn't have kids with Sally Hemings!), create another side to your debate (Jefferson couldn't have been the father of her children!), discover "proof" for one side or the other, and then write a book exposing these heinous liberal lies about someone we know to have been seated right next to the Son of God. Profit. God knows other writers have done it already.

They just don't realize they are slowly destroying the United States from within with their rewriting of history, their manufactured disdain for the federal government, and the placing of induvidual greed over the common good of the nation.

Mikey1969:Wow, the publisher is a Jesus website, too. Even the Christians are getting sick of this guy opening his cock-holster.

About Us

NPR's article actually had a lot of academic historians, identifying themselves as evangelicals, denouncing the book left and right. A lot of the lies Barton tells pertain the the Constitution where he makes claims that whole sections were lifted from the Bible. Of course, when people actually go and look, nope, no biblical matches can be found.

heavymetal:They just don't realize they are slowly destroying the United States from within with their rewriting of history, their manufactured disdain for the federal government, and the placing of induvidual greed over the common good of the nation.

It's amusing to me how much conservative christians want to believe that the founding fathers were also conservative christians. The founding fathers were educated intellectuals, which pretty much rules them out of being conservative christians

As many of you know, my mother, Judy Jennings, recently ran for Texas State Board of Education. Fark helped her out with donations and spreading the word, but unfortunately she lost her race :(

During the campaign, she and her fellow Democratic SBoE nominee from another district ran a commercial about David Barton (I can't remember the exact reasoning. Barton was an adviser for both their opponents or something). During this commercial, it was claimed that Barton spoke at a white supremacist rally. Barton is now suing my mother and her fellow candidate, claiming the commercial is slander. His defense is (quite literally) "Yes, I spoke at a white supremacist rally, but I didn't know they were white supremacists at the time."

If you'd like more information, or if you'd like to know how you can help, please look up Judy Jennings on the Facebook. She is running for State Board of Education again in 2012, and we would appreciate any support.

Gyrfalcon:"Thomas Jefferson was a Racist Who Opposed Equality for Black Americans" (Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but couldn't pay the heavy taxes required to do so by Virginia law);

In Notes on the State of Virginia, he says that the slaves will never be able to co-exist with whites, so they should either remain slaves or, if they were to be freed, moved back to Africa.

And he talked several times about freeing his slaves, but in his later years his plantation suffered economically, and so he kept putting off freeing his slaves because he couldn't afford not to have the slave labor.

So I'd give that claim of Barton absolutely no credibility. And since the guy only has a B.A. in Religion from Oral Roberts, and every respectable historian I've heard weigh in has found this guy laughable, I'd be confident in saying nothing he writes isn't heavily distorted to satisfy his agenda.

Gyrfalcon:Based on the reviews, I'm not sure what the kerfuffle was all about (nor why "kerfuffle" is a recognized word); These alleged "lies" about Jefferson are not as "widely believed" or accepted by any student of history, and the (truths) are not as shocking or suppressed as Barton seems to think. For instance, regardless of any DNA work, it's widely accepted Jefferson fathered several of Heming's children, based on the way they were treated by Jefferson during his own lifetime.

That isn't Barton's argument. He contends that one of Thomas Jefferson's brothers actually had babies with slaves and Tom was totally pure and had nothing to do with it. It's mainly supported by a historical foundation run by Jefferson's descendants who don't want to give Heming's descendants any reason to claim any part of Jefferson's estate.

The whole religion thingy is only relevant today, as we all know most of the Founders were deists, a theology quite in keeping with the times.

Barton is trying really, really hard to paint Jefferson and all of the Founding Fathers as evangelical Christians. Not just that they had religious feelings.

jackiepaper:It's amusing to me how much conservative christians want to believe that the founding fathers were also conservative christians. The founding fathers were educated intellectuals, which pretty much rules them out of being conservative christians

The vocal Republican Christians today aren't even conservative Christians. They are born again radical Christians. When the Pope believes in evolution and you claim it's a lie, you know you're a toolbag.

TheDumbBlonde:WhyteRaven74: Smirky the Wonder Chimp: One version of it actually has TJ bringing a waffle iron back from France and starting the tradition. Of course it's Wikipedia, not the Encyclopedia Brittanica, so take it with a grain of whatever seasoning floats your boat.

Actually Jefferson did bring back an assortment of cooking stuff from France. And he did come up with macaroni and cheese, though he called it macaroni pie.

He didn't "come up with it", he merely imported it. It wasn't likely the elbow and cheddar nightmare most Americans eat either. (More likely something like spagetti and parm).

As many of you know, my mother, Judy Jennings, recently ran for Texas State Board of Education. Fark helped her out with donations and spreading the word, but unfortunately she lost her race :(

During the campaign, she and her fellow Democratic SBoE nominee from another district ran a commercial about David Barton (I can't remember the exact reasoning. Barton was an adviser for both their opponents or something). During this commercial, it was claimed that Barton spoke at a white supremacist rally. Barton is now suing my mother and her fellow candidate, claiming the commercial is slander. His defense is (quite literally) "Yes, I spoke at a white supremacist rally, but I didn't know they were white supremacists at the time."

If you'd like more information, or if you'd like to know how you can help, please look up Judy Jennings on the Facebook. She is running for State Board of Education again in 2012, and we would appreciate any support.

Some more information for you:

Link

Link

Link

And here's a link to her Facebook. PLEASE "like" her and spread the word!

Facebook

How does someone NOT know that they're speaking at a gathering of white supremacists? Did they put a bag over his head, drive him along a circuitous route to confuse him, lead him onto the stage and remove the bag long enough for him to make the speech, and then put the bag over his head and remove him from the stage before anyone had a chance to actually speak to him? Or does he simply lets his secretary set up his speaking arrangements sight unseen, and then shuffle out on the stage in a senile haze to vomit forth whatever pseudobiblical, theocratic spew his neurons have haphazardly slammed together only to disappear immediately afterward in a manner not altogether unlike Batman's vanishings after delivering a quiet tip to Commissioner Gordon? Because if he's that incurious about the world he lives in, that would explain a great deal.

Wake up with a hangover, fried chicken in fridge: fried chicken for breakfast.

/ex-southerner.

You're better off being an ex-Southerner if you eat cold fried chicken as a hangover cure, Son.

Best thing ever! Two day old popeyes.. hell yeah. Certainly part of my hangover cure.. I also do the "full irish" at times.

The Cure: Eggs, cheese grits, sausage/fried fish/country ham, biscuits, some fruit/fresh tomatoes, gallon of black coffee, gallon of iced tea. Sleep through TNT/golf all afternoon. Toddy at 4:00 to get back in the game. That's the cure.

I read the Jefferson Bible last week. It's the Bible chopped down to only the stuff Jesus was actually quoted as saying. It's short and eye opening for what he didn't talk about. It's mostly two things: 1. Parables. 2. Zingers aimed the Pharisees who ask gotcha questions.

WI241TH:A few months ago he was on The Daily Show and I was shocked Stewart would let a writer with a book forwarded by Glenn Beck just go unchallenged.

to be fair, stewart showed a lot of class and was VERY patient with the guy trying to keep him on topic and to tone down the strawmen. i was more surprised barton/beck's people would even let him in the same zip code as stewart.

fusillade762:meat0918: Egalitarian: so what exactly are the "lies" that are being lied about? Jefferson had sex with at least one slave woman, at least 6 times? He wasn't a born-again Christian?

The other thread had quotes about things in the Constitution being verbatim from the Bible.

I had never heard of this book or its author and that was my guess. Fundies desperately want something "scholarly" about the founders so they can claim America is a Christian nation and get their dominionist bullshiat codified into law.

Pretty much. There is the whole write out everything Jefferson said and replace it with Jefferson wanted a Christian theocracy and the 1st Amendment is all about protecting the Christian nation bs he been ranting about for several years. Sure it goes against all the historical documentation, but that doesn't seem to stop them.

amindtat:Off topic, but your statement reminded me of this gem I found recently:

FTFA: "One must have a clear understanding of fermentation to see the unlikelihood of the above contention. First, naturally (no additives) fermented wine has a low alcoholic content. Until the advent of widely available granulated sugar, strongly alcoholic wine was rare. To make wine strongly alcoholic like what we have today (10%-15%) you must add a lot of sugar and yeast. "

Holly hillbilly. There are very few wines you can buy at the store that add sugar. Adding sugar is primarily done by amateur homebrewers. That 10%-15% wine you buy in stores has no added sugar. In fact, adding sugar doesn't increase the alcohol much from those numbers, as that's about the percentage where the toxicity of the alcohol stops the yeast from making more. Adding sugar primarily just makes it sweeter.

FTFA: "A third form of preservation was by straining out the yeast to prevent fermentation."What? They didn't have the filtration technology to strain yeast out of liquids in the 1st century, and even if they did, they didn't have the understanding of microbes to even try it. In fact, the whole concept of preserving fermentable liquid was the very thing Louis Pasteur was trying to accomplish. Pasteurization - ever hear of it?

DrBenway:In reading through the linked article, I was actually kind of impressed (and admittedly surprised) at how un-derpy the comments about this matter generally were. Haven't looked at the Amazon comments, though.

You're missing out on some primo anti-DERP.

Sometimes Book Titles are Unintentionally Ironic

The idea of a book countering claims about Thomas Jefferson promoted by some recent secularists is not itself an absurd idea. There has often been far too quick an equivalence made by some secularists today between their own views and those held by Enlightenment era thinkers. When examining the views of the Founding Fathers, we must realize there was quite a range one might occupy that falls between the tenor of the French Englightenment and its Anglo-American counterpart. On the one hand, we have someone like Thomas Paine who was openly hostile to Christianity but others, while also deists like Paine, thought the Church had an important role in promoting a shared moral code of the "golden rule" variety. They believed in God, respected Jesus as a moral example, and might even attend church services while not believing a word of the Gospel message apart from the shared morality. While opposing any imposition of doctrinal positions upon the state, they were not averse to religion having its place in the public square.

Any hopes such a clarification would be forthcoming in David Barton's "The Jefferson Lies" was quickly dispelled by a quick glance at the table of contents (and confirmed by reading the relevant chapter). For example, there is a chapter titled "Lie #7: Thomas Jefferson was an Atheist and Not a Christian." This is the logical fallacy known as the false dichotomy: you produce a pair of alternatives and procede as though they were the only two choices available. There were lots of other things Thomas Jefferson might have been besides Christian and atheist - he could have been a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew, or a deist. Granted, the first two possibilities are fairly remote for eighteenth century America and the third only slightly less so; but there were lots of deists running around at th time and Thomas Jefferson happened to be one of them.

In other cases, the author might have a point if he were aiming at specific radical voices but instead he treats the extremes as though they represented the current scholarly consensus and uses that to attack scholars in general. There are some who claim that Jefferson detested the clergy and attempt to picture him as an equivalent to contemporary "New Atheists" but such views are found on the internet - not academia. Jefferson did detest the behavior of some clergy, as I suspect Barton does himself, but he did not detest them because they were clergy and historians do not claim he did.

It seems Barton has scoured everything Jefferson wrote looking for mention of Christianity, no matter how tangential, that is not negative, no matter how incidental, and uses it as evidence Jefferson was a Christian. Is it really significant that Jefferson attended church services in school? So did Charles Darwin and Christopher Hitchens so we see how much that was worth. Is it really significant that he used the phrase "the year of our Lord" in a date on a treaty? It turns out it was required by the other party. None of such minutiae comes close to demonstrating Jefferson held Christian beliefs.

Even stranger was his discussion of Unitarianism. Besides deists, there some founding fathers who were Unitarians. Barton makes a points of claiming the Unitarians then were more mainstream Christian than today and at that time did not follow the "ultra heretical" doctrines they hold today. While one guesses he means the quasi-New Age beleifs they currently embrace, the fact remains Unitarians in Jefferson's day denied the divinity of Jesus and that still qualifies as heretical by Christian standards.

But perhaps the low point was the section denying the famous "Jefferson Bible." Here Barton shows his hand. Other parts of the book might be explained away by sheer incompetence but to deny something that exists and is well documented gives clear evidence of crossing the line into dishonesty. It is a blatant lie that cannot withstand even the slightest bit of scrutiny and reveals Barton's work as not merely poor but as a polemically motivated fraud.

The end result is a mess of a book that is little more that a collection of lies, half-truths, distortions, logical fallacies, and non sequiturs. It has almost no redeemable qualities and is so poor that one might be led to think it was written by someone pretending to be Christian to make Christians look bad. Speaking as a Christian, it is unfortunately the case, judging by this author and the embracing of this book in some Christian circles, they can look bad all by themselves.

The Texas Monthly noted that Barton has denied saying that in his famous letter to Danbury Baptists "Jefferson referred to the wall of separation between church and state as 'one-directional'-that is, it was meant to restrain government from infringing on the church's domain but not the other way around. There is no such language in the letter." The article goes on to note that this denial is contradicted by a 1990 version of Barton's video 'America's Godly Heritage' in which Barton states:

"On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote to that group of Danbury Baptists, and in this letter, he assured them-he said the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, he said, but that wall is a one-directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

And he's an evangelical Christian minister. Guess he decided that the Ninth Commandment doesn't apply to evangelizing. Hey, sometimes you have to lie and distort to spread the Truth.

Heh, I'm thinking buy the book for, what, $19.95 at the bookstore tomorrow morning? Then put it up on eBay for $50 with something like, "CONSERVATIVE TRUTH, BANNED BY LIBERALS! THE BOOK THE LIBERAL LAMESTREAM MSM MEDIA DOESN'T WANT YOU TO READ!"

Techhell:So this information comes two years after the USA invaded Afghanistan, in the first videotape released by OBL in three years, and after the USA had already begun to wonder if it was a Vietnam-eque quagmire... to quote Ashleigh Brilliant, "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target".

If you've got anything else, toss it up here. Hey, you might be right - but you might just be falling for a version of "I, uh, meant to do that."

Here ya go:

Al-Qaeda insiders and recovered documents show that it was bin Laden's goal to bring America to Afghanistan, rather than try to bring al-Qaeda to America. Anyway, bringing the enemy where you want to fight him has been an established tactic of insurgents since Sun Tzu wrote his definitive guide. The goal of any smaller, weaker force is to make the enemy fight where it is most advantageous to them, and least advantageous to the enemy.

In addition, the goal of any terrorist group is not to destroy the enemy themselves, but to rouse the "Sheeple"--and yes, bin Laden had his own set--that attack against the enemy IS possible, that they have done it, and that it can succeed if only the masses rise up and follow the lead of the initial group. There's a reason al-Qaeda chose that name: It means "The Base" in Arabic, and was meant to show the Muslim masses who they should be clustering around.

This triple goal--bringing the enemy to you, showing "your people" that attack is possible, and making yourself the center of the assault--is taken not only from bin Laden's theory, but can be found in the IRA's Green Book and the "Mini-manual for the Urban Guerrilla" by Marigella. It's not at all surprising. In fact, the attack on the USS Cole was probably intended to be the same sort of thing; but Clinton wasn't a "bring it on" kind of president.

Nobodyn0se:SN1987a goes boom: He's a public figure, no? Then its up to him to prove actual malice, i.e. that the statements are untrue.

Nobody thinks he's actually going to WIN, but in the meantime the lawyers fees are costing my family a lot :( While my parents aren't exactly poor, having to defend yourself from a high profile lawsuit is freaking expensive!

You know what her fatal flaw was? Accusing Barton of speaking at a white-power rally, and thinking that would be observed as a negative in Texas.

As many of you know, my mother, Judy Jennings, recently ran for Texas State Board of Education. Fark helped her out with donations and spreading the word, but unfortunately she lost her race :(

During the campaign, she and her fellow Democratic SBoE nominee from another district ran a commercial about David Barton (I can't remember the exact reasoning. Barton was an adviser for both their opponents or something). During this commercial, it was claimed that Barton spoke at a white supremacist rally. Barton is now suing my mother and her fellow candidate, claiming the commercial is slander. His defense is (quite literally) "Yes, I spoke at a white supremacist rally, but I didn't know they were white supremacists at the time."

If you'd like more information, or if you'd like to know how you can help, please look up Judy Jennings on the Facebook. She is running for State Board of Education again in 2012, and we would appreciate any support.

Some more information for you:

Link

Link

Link

And here's a link to her Facebook. PLEASE "like" her and spread the word!

Facebook

He's a public figure, no? Then its up to him to prove actual malice, i.e. that the statements are untrue.

Seriously, in about 200 years Americans are going to look back at this time in their history and marvel at how lucky they were that their enemies weren't smart enough to really hurt the USA.

Drawing America into Afghanistan for over a decade totally isn't hurting America.

I'd give this comment some credence if I believed that the terrorists actually intended to draw America into a quagmire in Afghanistan. However I don't believe that for an instant. Not without some proof that it was an intentional act, to draw the USA and NATO into Afghanistan for an extended period of time.

Pretty much Osama Bin Laden's stated goal.

But please, be a snarky ass all you want bro.

Curse of the Goth Kids:That or something equally expensive was pretty much the plan all along. Here's a blog post about it, but if you'll remember you'd hear semi- regularly all throughout the war about Bin Laden's experience with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, the USSR's subsequent economic collapse, and how that sequence of events proposed itself in his mind as a formula of sorts.

So this information comes two years after the USA invaded Afghanistan, in the first videotape released by OBL in three years, and after the USA had already begun to wonder if it was a Vietnam-eque quagmire... to quote Ashleigh Brilliant, "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target".

If you've got anything else, toss it up here. Hey, you might be right - but you might just be falling for a version of "I, uh, meant to do that."

odinsposse:Gyrfalcon: Based on the reviews, I'm not sure what the kerfuffle was all about (nor why "kerfuffle" is a recognized word); These alleged "lies" about Jefferson are not as "widely believed" or accepted by any student of history, and the (truths) are not as shocking or suppressed as Barton seems to think. For instance, regardless of any DNA work, it's widely accepted Jefferson fathered several of Heming's children, based on the way they were treated by Jefferson during his own lifetime.

That isn't Barton's argument. He contends that one of Thomas Jefferson's brothers actually had babies with slaves and Tom was totally pure and had nothing to do with it. It's mainly supported by a historical foundation run by Jefferson's descendants who don't want to give Heming's descendants any reason to claim any part of Jefferson's estate.

That's what I meant. I guess that isn't what I said. What I meant was that nobody really doubts Jefferson's parentage; except those trying to pretend he would never EVER have sex with a black woman.

WI241TH:A few months ago he was on The Daily Show and I was shocked Stewart would let a writer with a book forwarded by Glenn Beck just go unchallenged.

I guess it's like holidays with your relatives when they argue and cite "facts" that you latter find out where total BS. At the time you really don't know how to respond so they get to "win" the argument.

I'm a book dealer. I deal in really stupid books all the time. But I'm tempted to run out and buy a few copies before the publisher shreds all of them. If we can have dozens of well-selling books on 9/11 Truth, JFK conspiracies, and Ancient Aliens.... Well, he's as accurate as Von Daniken.

Seriously, in about 200 years Americans are going to look back at this time in their history and marvel at how lucky they were that their enemies weren't smart enough to really hurt the USA.

Drawing America into Afghanistan for over a decade totally isn't hurting America.

I'd give this comment some credence if I believed that the terrorists actually intended to draw America into a quagmire in Afghanistan. However I don't believe that for an instant. Not without some proof that it was an intentional act, to draw the USA and NATO into Afghanistan for an extended period of time.

Lochsteppe:Trying to comprehend Kaiser's thought process here...how is American liberalism destroyed by a book that shows the non-hero-worshipping side of American history? Is he saying this is one of those "when everyone's special...no one will be (muahahahahahaha)" things? Or is he mad because it undercuts the narrative in which all of our freedoms were won by soldiers and the military?

Seriously, in about 200 years Americans are going to look back at this time in their history and marvel at how lucky they were that their enemies weren't smart enough to really hurt the USA.

Drawing America into Afghanistan for over a decade totally isn't hurting America.

I'd give this comment some credence if I believed that the terrorists actually intended to draw America into a quagmire in Afghanistan. However I don't believe that for an instant. Not without some proof that it was an intentional act, to draw the USA and NATO into Afghanistan for an extended period of time.

That or something equally expensive was pretty much the plan all along. Here's a blog post about it, but if you'll remember you'd hear semi- regularly all throughout the war about Bin Laden's experience with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, the USSR's subsequent economic collapse, and how that sequence of events proposed itself in his mind as a formula of sorts.

fusillade762:sprawl15: jayhawk88: tenpoundsofcheese: Just curious, what were the major "lies" that he claimed?

Without even reading the book, I bet we can guess with at least with 75% accuracy:

- Jefferson was totally down with God and every scrap of Democracy he created was straight from Jesus' lips- No way Jefferson had Jungle Fever, and you're racist for thinking so- No really, Jefferson wanted 2012 America to bow in fear of Almighty God every hour of every day- And even if he didn't, he really wasn't as involved with the Founders as we're lead to believe, he mostly sat outside sniffing opium and killing puppies- The Louisiana Purchase was all Madison's idea. Also God's.

Survey says...

------------------

After a week of voting by readers, David Barton's "The Jefferson Lies" won with some 650 votes, narrowly edging the left-wing historian Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States," which received 641 votes.

David Kaiser, a professor of military history at the Naval War College, charged "A People's History" - which has sold more than two million copies since its initial publication in 1980 - with damaging the country, "By convincing several generations of Americans that leadership does not matter and that all beneficial change comes from the bottom," he wrote, "it has played a significant role in the destruction of American liberalism."

The butthurt there is epic.

Trying to comprehend Kaiser's thought process here...how is American liberalism destroyed by a book that shows the non-hero-worshipping side of American history? Is he saying this is one of those "when everyone's special...no one will be (muahahahahahaha)" things? Or is he mad because it undercuts the narrative in which all of our freedoms were won by soldiers and the military?

TheDumbBlonde:technicolor-misfit: TheDumbBlonde: WhyteRaven74: Smirky the Wonder Chimp: One version of it actually has TJ bringing a waffle iron back from France and starting the tradition. Of course it's Wikipedia, not the Encyclopedia Brittanica, so take it with a grain of whatever seasoning floats your boat.

Actually Jefferson did bring back an assortment of cooking stuff from France. And he did come up with macaroni and cheese, though he called it macaroni pie.

He didn't "come up with it", he merely imported it. It wasn't likely the elbow and cheddar nightmare most Americans eat either. (More likely something like spagetti and parm).

Seriously, in about 200 years Americans are going to look back at this time in their history and marvel at how lucky they were that their enemies weren't smart enough to really hurt the USA.

Drawing America into Afghanistan for over a decade totally isn't hurting America.

I'd give this comment some credence if I believed that the terrorists actually intended to draw America into a quagmire in Afghanistan. However I don't believe that for an instant. Not without some proof that it was an intentional act, to draw the USA and NATO into Afghanistan for an extended period of time.

Actually a lot of historians have problems with A People's History, in part because it plays a bit loose with the facts and makes assumptions it never bothers to prove.

I'm guessing they're not too pleased with the way he talks about their profession, either. It's been a while since I read it, but I recall that near the beginning he justified his own blatant bias by claiming that all other historians are biased in favor of the powerful, political leaders and so on, and therefore it was totally okay to do the opposite. Basically it was the Fox News approach to truth. There's some good stuff in that book, but ultimately it's pretty much agitprop.

There is a tendency with some historians to concentrate on the actions of the political, military, and economic elite - but that's partially because they made most of the significant actions in ancient and medieval history. That's why there is a subdiscipline of social history - common people have things to teach us as well. It's also a driving force in archaeology.

But Zinn does tend to go overboard on his criticisms of historians. This field has made great strides in the last century or so, and when he first published People's History in 1980 he was really trying to put shots across the bow of the generation that taught him history (again, if you go into a book with an agenda, is no better than a Ruling Theory).

Actually a lot of historians have problems with A People's History, in part because it plays a bit loose with the facts and makes assumptions it never bothers to prove.

I'm guessing they're not too pleased with the way he talks about their profession, either. It's been a while since I read it, but I recall that near the beginning he justified his own blatant bias by claiming that all other historians are biased in favor of the powerful, political leaders and so on, and therefore it was totally okay to do the opposite. Basically it was the Fox News approach to truth. There's some good stuff in that book, but ultimately it's pretty much agitprop.

Smirky the Wonder Chimp:How does someone NOT know that they're speaking at a gathering of white supremacists? Did they put a bag over his head, drive him along a circuitous route to confuse him, lead him onto the stage and remove the bag long enough for him to make the speech, and then put the bag over his head and remove him from the stage before anyone had a chance to actually speak to him? Or does he simply lets his secretary set up his speaking arrangements sight unseen, and then shuffle out on the stage in a senile haze to vomit forth whatever pseudobiblical, theocratic spew his neurons have haphazardly slammed together only to disappear immediately afterward in a manner not altogether unlike Batman's vanishings after delivering a quiet tip to Commissioner Gordon? Because if he's that incurious about the world he lives in, that would explain a great deal.

fusillade762:sprawl15: jayhawk88: tenpoundsofcheese: Just curious, what were the major "lies" that he claimed?

Without even reading the book, I bet we can guess with at least with 75% accuracy:

- Jefferson was totally down with God and every scrap of Democracy he created was straight from Jesus' lips- No way Jefferson had Jungle Fever, and you're racist for thinking so- No really, Jefferson wanted 2012 America to bow in fear of Almighty God every hour of every day- And even if he didn't, he really wasn't as involved with the Founders as we're lead to believe, he mostly sat outside sniffing opium and killing puppies- The Louisiana Purchase was all Madison's idea. Also God's.

Survey says...

------------------

After a week of voting by readers, David Barton's "The Jefferson Lies" won with some 650 votes, narrowly edging the left-wing historian Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States," which received 641 votes.

David Kaiser, a professor of military history at the Naval War College, charged "A People's History" - which has sold more than two million copies since its initial publication in 1980 - with damaging the country, "By convincing several generations of Americans that leadership does not matter and that all beneficial change comes from the bottom," he wrote, "it has played a significant role in the destruction of American liberalism."

The butthurt there is epic.

Like I said in the last thread, Zinn doesn't practice the most thorough of historiography in People's History, and the book certainly has an agenda, but it's not exactly in the realm of lying for political purposes that Barton, DiLorenzo, and O'Reilly engage in - or the outright bullshiat in 1421.

sprawl15:jayhawk88: tenpoundsofcheese: Just curious, what were the major "lies" that he claimed?

Without even reading the book, I bet we can guess with at least with 75% accuracy:

- Jefferson was totally down with God and every scrap of Democracy he created was straight from Jesus' lips- No way Jefferson had Jungle Fever, and you're racist for thinking so- No really, Jefferson wanted 2012 America to bow in fear of Almighty God every hour of every day- And even if he didn't, he really wasn't as involved with the Founders as we're lead to believe, he mostly sat outside sniffing opium and killing puppies- The Louisiana Purchase was all Madison's idea. Also God's.

Survey says...

------------------

After a week of voting by readers, David Barton's "The Jefferson Lies" won with some 650 votes, narrowly edging the left-wing historian Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States," which received 641 votes.

David Kaiser, a professor of military history at the Naval War College, charged "A People's History" - which has sold more than two million copies since its initial publication in 1980 - with damaging the country, "By convincing several generations of Americans that leadership does not matter and that all beneficial change comes from the bottom," he wrote, "it has played a significant role in the destruction of American liberalism."

I have, on occasion, eaten chicken and waffles for breakfast. The Southerner has to be well versed in soul food, and must have passed his "Chicken Breast Sandwich" test (a whole chicken breast, bone in, in a bun or between two pieces of white bread), and must have eaten real Brunswick Stew (which isn't properly prepared unless it is indistinguishable from vomit). In addition, it is helpful if said southerner isn't familiar with non-cheese grits, and has had said food with fried catfish and/or raw and/or fried oysters (depending on how close said southerner is from the Atlantic Coast). Oh, and country fried steak is only served with brown gravy and Vidalia Onions, people. (I'm looking at you, Texas)

As many of you know, my mother, Judy Jennings, recently ran for Texas State Board of Education. Fark helped her out with donations and spreading the word, but unfortunately she lost her race :(

During the campaign, she and her fellow Democratic SBoE nominee from another district ran a commercial about David Barton (I can't remember the exact reasoning. Barton was an adviser for both their opponents or something). During this commercial, it was claimed that Barton spoke at a white supremacist rally. Barton is now suing my mother and her fellow candidate, claiming the commercial is slander. His defense is (quite literally) "Yes, I spoke at a white supremacist rally, but I didn't know they were white supremacists at the time."

If you'd like more information, or if you'd like to know how you can help, please look up Judy Jennings on the Facebook. She is running for State Board of Education again in 2012, and we would appreciate any support.

Some more information for you:

Link

Link

Link

And here's a link to her Facebook. PLEASE "like" her and spread the word!

Facebook

How does someone NOT know that they're speaking at a gathering of white supremacists? Did they put a bag over his head, drive him along a circuitous route to confuse him, lead him onto the stage and remove the bag long enough for him to make the speech, and then put the bag over his head and remove him from the stage before anyone had a chance to actually speak to him? Or does he simply lets his secretary set up his speaking arrangements sight unseen, and then shuffle out on the stage in a senile haze to vomit forth whatever pseudobiblical, theocratic spew his neurons have haphazardly slammed together only to disappear immediately afterward in a manner not altogether unlike Batman's vanishings after delivering a quiet tip to Commissioner Gordon? Because if he's that incurious about the world he lives in, that would explain a great deal.

Without even reading the book, I bet we can guess with at least with 75% accuracy:

- Jefferson was totally down with God and every scrap of Democracy he created was straight from Jesus' lips- No way Jefferson had Jungle Fever, and you're racist for thinking so- No really, Jefferson wanted 2012 America to bow in fear of Almighty God every hour of every day- And even if he didn't, he really wasn't as involved with the Founders as we're lead to believe, he mostly sat outside sniffing opium and killing puppies- The Louisiana Purchase was all Madison's idea. Also God's.

As many of you know, my mother, Judy Jennings, recently ran for Texas State Board of Education. Fark helped her out with donations and spreading the word, but unfortunately she lost her race :(

During the campaign, she and her fellow Democratic SBoE nominee from another district ran a commercial about David Barton (I can't remember the exact reasoning. Barton was an adviser for both their opponents or something). During this commercial, it was claimed that Barton spoke at a white supremacist rally. Barton is now suing my mother and her fellow candidate, claiming the commercial is slander. His defense is (quite literally) "Yes, I spoke at a white supremacist rally, but I didn't know they were white supremacists at the time."

If you'd like more information, or if you'd like to know how you can help, please look up Judy Jennings on the Facebook. She is running for State Board of Education again in 2012, and we would appreciate any support.

Some more information for you:

Link

Link

Link

And here's a link to her Facebook. PLEASE "like" her and spread the word!

Facebook

How does someone NOT know that they're speaking at a gathering of white supremacists? Did they put a bag over his head, drive him along a circuitous route to confuse him, lead him onto the stage and remove the bag long enough for him to make the speech, and then put the bag over his head and remove him from the stage before anyone had a chance to actually speak to him? Or does he simply lets his secretary set up his speaking arrangements sight unseen, and then shuffle out on the stage in a senile haze to vomit forth whatever pseudobiblical, theocratic spew his neurons have haphazardly slammed together only to disappear immediately afterward in a manner not altogether unlike Batman's vanishings after delivering a quiet tip to Commissioner Gordon? Because if he's that incurious about the world he lives in, that would explain a great deal.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats:The comments for that article are pretty derpy. One person posting about a turn of phrase meaning that scientists believed plants were sentient and/or sapient at some point in the past.

How do these people even get out of bed in the morning without accidentally killing themselves.

meat0918:Egalitarian: so what exactly are the "lies" that are being lied about? Jefferson had sex with at least one slave woman, at least 6 times? He wasn't a born-again Christian?

The other thread had quotes about things in the Constitution being verbatim from the Bible.

I had never heard of this book or its author and that was my guess. Fundies desperately want something "scholarly" about the founders so they can claim America is a Christian nation and get their dominionist bullshiat codified into law.

Smirky the Wonder Chimp:One version of it actually has TJ bringing a waffle iron back from France and starting the tradition. Of course it's Wikipedia, not the Encyclopedia Brittanica, so take it with a grain of whatever seasoning floats your boat.

Actually Jefferson did bring back an assortment of cooking stuff from France. And he did come up with macaroni and cheese, though he called it macaroni pie.

Love this in the comments section: "Ummmm... this sounds a lot like a Harry Reid accusation. Only worse. How is Barton supposed to refute the charges when no one is giving specifics?I just find it a bit incredible that someone with access to so many of the original writings/letters of our founding fathers, who has a habit of carefully listing his source documents, would be so sloppy to publish a book with unsupported opinions."

I'm pretty sure the historians notifying the publisher gave the publisher specifics, numbnuts. Also, I love the "he has access to so many original writings!" I mean seriously, anyone who can find and read the original writings of Jefferson must be some sort of super intellect, right? And since he's Christian he would never lie or anything.

I served on a jury earlier this year with an older, conservative-looking fellow who was reading that. I think I made an Obama voter out of him when I informed him that the Mormons posthumously sealed Jefferson and Hemmings as husband and wife.

I saw this on the shelf at a bookstore in Charlottesville, VA. I took a look, say it had a forward by Glenn Beck, and put it back down, wondering how long it would be before roaming hordes of UVA students burned piles of them.