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Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Finally we can all walk away from this wretched season and never speak of it again. I’ve been a Pacers fan all of my life and I can tell you I have never wanted a season to end so badly for so long.

First let me get to some housekeeping issues. A couple of you have sent me P.M.’s asking why I stopped doing Odd thoughts and I never got back to you.

Let me explain here. When I made the decision to stop doing them other than for an occasional one here and there it was because the demeanor of the board was already very negative and frankly I was doing nothing but adding to the negativity and at some point in time I could only complain about the same things over and over. It was already driving a couple of long time posters insane that so many people were jumping on JOB and others that almost every post I made was going to cover the same topic over and over so I just decided to back off and post in other peoples threads for the most part.

But the season is over now and I am going to fire this one for sure off and probably a few more in the coming days.

I will give fair warning now. If you are a Jim O’Brien fan or a Troy Murphy fan and maybe even a Larry Bird fan you will not want to read what I am going to say.

Also fair warning number two, I normally keep my post as clean of profanity as I can and as an admin. I know what we can and can not accept on here. So while I usually try and keep it clean fair warning # 2 I am probably going to let fly a few off color statements here.

I will admit that seeing the Reggie Miller movie honestly mellowed me out a lot and I mean LOT. In fact for about a week after that I felt pretty good and my disdain for the team dropped a lot.

Anyway sit back, keep your hands inside the ride at all times and let’s go.

I was going to start with everything or anything else. I thought about going with up and coming players or players I thought would be a part of the team or what we needed or any number of other things.

But at the end of it all I can NOT make any plans, have any hopes or have any real clue about this team without talking about issue number one.

Jim O’Brien.

I know that Uncle Buck is already preparing his year end report and I am sure he will give you the logical intellectual rebuttal explaining everything that Jim O’Brien does. I know that people who run other web sites and intellectuals here are going to have their heads explode over what I am going to say and how I am going to say it but frankly tonight I just don’t care.

Jim O’Brien sucks.

I’m tempted to just leave it at that but I am going to terry on.

In my life I have seen George Irvine, Dick Versace and Isaiah Thomas and Jim has surpassed all of them by leaps and bounds on my disdain list.

I have never in my life seen a coach, or frankly a person in general, so *** D@mn stubborn about doing things one way no matter how much the evidence to the contrary shows.

Don’t kid yourself for one single min. that the end of the season run was a turning point for Jim. No way in hell. I can point to the Atlanta game, the Orlando game and then again to the last quarter of the last game of the season. Troy (the saloon door) Murphy was playing center and you had Danny Granger at the 4 or even worse in the Orlando & Atlanta games we had to once again try and guess which one was the power forward D. Jones or Dunleavy.

I said it in another post the other day and I’ll repeat it here. If I could pick one word to describe O’Brien (well one clean word anyway) it is Hubris.

This man is so arrogant that he actually believes that his defensive schemes are so brilliant that he can plug anybody into his system and as long as they do as he say’s that they will succeed. Thus he then is free to pick and use anyone on the offensive end that follows his one dimensional offense that spreads the floor. Thus why you see Troy Murphy play more front court min. than anyone not named Granger. We’ve even had to make up a new name for Murphy’s position (stretch four) because everybody concedes the guy is not a real power forward. Now if we all agree with that what in the name of God do we call him when he plays center?

Is there another coach on the planet earth that thinks that Troy Murphy is a starting caliber center in the NBA? If you are going to say that Jim doesn’t you might want to go back to the months of December through February and see who started in the center spot quite a few times.

I’ve said all season long and I’ll continue to say Jeff Foster going down was the best thing that could have happened for the team this year. Not that I wanted Jeff gone but because it forced O’Brien to play Roy and even then he tried everything in his power to limit his min.

Back to his defense for a min. I guess it’s been said before but I will say it again. Jim’s defense is designed to give up shots that Jim’s offense is designed to take. Does anyone see a problem with that besides me?
Now let’s deal with the small ball thing for a min. When I think small ball I think players that might be a little shorter but usually they are faster, more athletic and usually better shooters. A team like Miami plays small quite well, in fact their team kicked our butts every single time we played them and it is simple they are all of the above over us.

However when Jim does this he really only looks to make sure that they are able to shoot from the perimeter better.

An example of a lineup that might work in situations for us would be to have Josh or Solomon at center with Danny at the 4 and Brandon at the 3 with D. Jones at the 2 and Earl at the 1.

This is a smaller lineup in height but each of them can jump and are as strong as their counterparts on the team. But that is not the lineup he would use because only Danny, Brandon and sometimes Earl can shoot from the three point arc.

I can’t tell you how disgusted I was when I heard Herb confirm that he would return next year. I always knew it would happen but to have it be confirmed just made me ill.

I’ll say it and I’m not sorry for saying it.

I hate watching any team this man coach’s. I can not stand the amount of three point shots that we take and yes I am one of those who actually understand that he wants the three point shot to open up the driving lanes for ball movement and drives.

Well guess what, it didn’t work. That would have been fine if we would have tried something else but whenever and wherever he could he wanted to go back to his preferred offense no matter how bad it was not working.

I asked this early in the season and I’ll ask it again now that the season is over. At what point in time is it his responsibility for the shot selection, lack of off the ball movement and win/loss %?

I know some are going to say I am being unfair, well to my defense I tried for the first half of the season to give him the benefit of the doubt. I do acknowledge that some injuries certainly hurt the team over the season and a few players were not playing up to their potential. That is not on him. I’ll give him that.

But this isn’t the guys first season here guys. This is season 3 and we are getting worse not better and at this point in time you can only argue the lack of talent for so long. Because at some point in time it is proper to ask “are you properly using the talent you have available to you”?

So in short here are the issues that I do not blame him for.

• Injuries
• Brandon Rush’s offensive production (however there is a caveat here)
• Larry Bird not getting him players that play his way in the off-season
• Bowser being laid off

Other than that, no pretty much everything else about this wretched season is his fault.

However having said all of the above and knowing how I feel about it I want to move on to person number 2.

Larry Bird.

Sorry guys I have been solidly in Birds corner since he took over. I actually like the players he has drafted, traded for or gotten via free agency.

But his extension of O’Brien to a guaranteed contract for next year is about all I can stand.

At some point in time you don’t blame Ron Artest for going Artest just like you don’t put a fox in a chicken coop and expect it to not react.

Well same principle applies here. You can’t blame Jim O’Brien for being Jim O’Brien at this point in time. You can make a logical argument that he had to have him here for three years because of money. Fine I can live with that, I don’t like it but I can live with it. But there is no way in hell this guy should have ever been extended.

Forget whether or not he lost the team, we can guess but will never truly know, but for certain that guy has lost the majority of the fans. If you haven’t been to the fieldhouse when his name is announced in the pre-game the boo’s come loud, early and often. You can not hear it on TV because the music is drowns it out and they better thank God that they play the music there because if not I’m afraid it would be embarrassing.

Now I am even going to give Jim some credit here. Why in the name of God did Bird go out and get players that he had to know that Jim would not want to use? In fact you can make a logical argument that Bird has done nothing but sabotage O’Brien from the get go by trading for a traditional post up center and dribble penetration point guard who didn’t have a three point shot to getting a wing player in the free agent market that did not have an outside shot.

So from today forward every time that I see Troy Murphy at the five spot or I have to try and figure out which of the 6’4” players is the power forward I will no longer blame Jim O’Brien.

From this day forward this all falls squarely on the shoulders of Larry Bird. It is obvious that Bird supports this and if he doesn’t support this he should have made a change.

Like Fox Mulder I still want to believe in what Bird is doing but frankly nothing and I mean nothing will change next season because until we change the culture of our team (where have we heard that before) from the top then nothing else matters. We may all want a power player in the draft or some great point guard, but none of those matters at all if we have a coach who will either misuse them or not use them at all.

Troy Murphy

You can tell me all about the double double’s that he obtains. You can tell me all about projected figures per minute or over a game or any other statistic you want to tell me about to defend this guy.

There is only one set of numbers that means anything to me.

621 - 0

Troy Murphy has played in 621 career NBA basketball games and has appeared in 0 playoff games.

Now while it might be unfair to blame him for an entire team not making the playoffs, let me assure you he is a might big reason that his teams do not. In particular here because his is like crack cocaine to the coach that we presently have. He is not only a major player on our team, he is featured.

He is a very irritating player because what he does is often by choice and frankly sometimes it is down right offensive. I called him saloon door before because that is what his defense is like a two way swinging saloon door that offers no real resistance and is there for mostly show.

I love now how we are trying to cover up the fact that the guy blows on defense by saying that he is a good team defender. Whatever the hell that means. I mean I know what it means to me but I have no idea what they mean by it. To me it means that Troy will get between himself and the ball and the basket to only move to the side while his player drives right past him. He could either attempt to actually defend the player or even take a foul to stop the drive. But more often than not he just literally turns side ways to get into rebounding position thus leaving the man to either get a lay-up/dunk, get fouled by another defender or every now and then they miss the lay up and the powerhouse that is Murphy sweeps in to get the board. Thus padding his stats on the rebounding number but there is no real actual stat that shows you getting blown buy other than the +/- and as we all know from Jim’s talk with Duke the +/- is just A tool no THE tool.

Funny how that works that way when the +/- doesn’t back up your reasoning as to why a player plays all of the time.

I don’t have the game anymore on DVR but there is a time in the Wiz game that McGee drives the lane on him and it would be comical if it wasn’t so damn sad how Troy reacted to this. He about tore his hip out trying to get out of the way.

But what I hate most about Murphy is that he is making me question the value of rebounding. I actually have said that rebounding numbers don’t matter this year. Me, I said that. I’ve never uttered those words in my life.

Now let me give Murphy a little bit of a break here. I don’t blame him for all of the time on the floor. That fell on O’Brien and from today forward falls on Bird. He is only doing what is asked of him by shooting the three’s and everybody knows his lack of defense so he does what he can with what he has. So no fault to him for some of that, although not taking a foul instead of making Roy or someone else take it is just purely selfish IMO but for all I know he has been instructed by O’Brien to not foul.

If Bird is going to keep O’Brien (which he is) then he has to do one of two things. He either has to get more players exactly like Murphy or he has got to get rid of him so Jim can not play him in the high 30’s for min. again next year.

I would also like to now take this time to make the following confession.

I was wrong about Troy Murphy. I freely admit when he was with G.S. I thought he was Brad Miller light and I was looking forward to getting him. Hell his first year here I even defended him because I thought too many people were looking at his contract and not at what he was doing.

Well let me be the first to say I was dead wrong. I was fooled by hallow numbers and he is NOT the player I thought he was. I thought he was going to be a far more physical player and a decent defender.

Whew boy was I wrong there.

So I apologize to Anthem who had this guy pegged from day one.

Part two of my multi part series will come later.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Now I am even going to give Jim some credit here. Why in the name of God did Bird go out and get players that he had to know that Jim would not want to use? In fact you can make a logical argument that Bird has done nothing but sabotage O’Brien from the get go by trading for a traditional post up center and dribble penetration point guard who didn’t have a three point shot to getting a wing player in the free agent market that did not have an outside shot.

Agree with everything but this part. O'Brien blamed last season's awful defensive performance on his personnel- they weren't athletic enough or didn't have the right disposition or whatever. So Bird went out and got both Jones' to add toughness and athleticism. O'Brien tried to use Dahntay for a good stretch of the season but just recently said he really can't use him because he's not a 3 pt. shooter.

O'Brien is doing the same thing at the end of this season to shift blame from himself- now it's the lack of a good point guard. Even went so far as to conclusively state that Price is never going to be a starter. As if he was a competent judge of talent.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

After saying all that, do you really believe this team with another coach is a PLAYOFF team?
As frustrating as OB might be, is this a playoff team? I think anyone would say no.
This is a team devoid of talent or the talent is too young.

Also, for the admins, where is the profanity filter, specifically the GD filter which was put in place awhile back. As an admin can you overide the filter? If you have I am disappointed.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

I could say Murphy is a great asset and you are undervaluing his defense, OB is an X's and O's type of guy who knows how to coach, and Bird is a great at evaluting talent and argue with you about other things but you have literally made me look closer at how Murphy plays D and how OB and Bird are at their positions.

I don't think next year is going to be awesome by any means, but hopefully Bird does what he has to do and gets some players in here that can make an impact. Hopefully it's a season where we get atleast 40 wins but who the hell am I kidding?

The only thing I know is that I'm glad this season is over and will have a whole summer of retooling my thoughts and get ready for next season....as disappointing as it may be.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Honestly, my vision got very blurry about a quarter into the Jim O'Brien stuff.

Not decided if I am going to get into any of this right now. I really just want to enjoy the playoffs starting Saturday. Not sure there is much to say about the Pacers. Maybe in a day or two.

edit: I will add this, I don't have a feel if Jim is coming back or not. The Pacers really, really, really NEED to make the playoffs next season, for the survivial of the "Indiana" Pacers they really need to make the playoffs. They also really need to keep every season ticket holder they have that is threatening or has decided not to renew because Jim is the coach.

If Herb has a meeting with Bird and tells him his job depends on the pacers making the playoffs next season and Herb tells him yes if that means firing O'Brien and we have to pay his salary (what is his salary for next season by the way $3M?) so be it, MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Coaches salary does not count against the cap, luxury tax, so in effect it is a cheap $3M.

Honestly right now, without knowing any of the inner workers of the franchise or knowing what the relationship is between the coaches and the players, (I cannot determine that from this season, I could make a strong case either way) I think there is a better than 50% chance that Jim is not the coach next season. I'd put the odds at probably 60/40 that he is not back as coach.

If the playoffs are a must next season (with still looking towards next summer as the time to re-make the team) then changing coaches is probably the least expensive way to assure a playoff berth. (we'll see if anyone is reading my posts anymore)

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Agree with everything but this part. O'Brien blamed last season's awful defensive performance on his personnel- they weren't athletic enough or didn't have the right disposition or whatever. So Bird went out and got both Jones' to add toughness and athleticism. O'Brien tried to use Dahntay for a good stretch of the season but just recently said he really can't use him because he's not a 3 pt. shooter.

O'Brien is doing the same thing at the end of this season to shift blame from himself- now it's the lack of a good point guard. Even went so far as to conclusively state that Price is never going to be a starter. As if he was a competent judge of talent.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Even went so far as to conclusively state that Price is never going to be a starter. As if he was a competent judge of talent.

That's not the way I took the Price comment. I took that as Price is not ready to be the sole starter just yet. Maybe at some point, with this team, or another one. But not yet. It didn't seem to me that JOB was saying AJ would never be a starter.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Sorry guys I have been solidly in Birds corner since he took over. I actually like the players he has drafted, traded for or gotten via free agency.

But his extension of O’Brien to a guaranteed contract for next year is about all I can stand.

At some point in time you don’t blame Ron Artest for going Artest just like you don’t put a fox in a chicken coop and expect it to not react.

Well same principle applies here. You can’t blame Jim O’Brien for being Jim O’Brien at this point in time. You can make a logical argument that he had to have him here for three years because of money. Fine I can live with that, I don’t like it but I can live with it. But there is no way in hell this guy should have ever been extended.

Forget whether or not he lost the team, we can guess but will never truly know, but for certain that guy has lost the majority of the fans. If you haven’t been to the fieldhouse when his name is announced in the pre-game the boo’s come loud, early and often. You can not hear it on TV because the music is drowns it out and they better thank God that they play the music there because if not I’m afraid it would be embarrassing.

Now I am even going to give Jim some credit here. Why in the name of God did Bird go out and get players that he had to know that Jim would not want to use? In fact you can make a logical argument that Bird has done nothing but sabotage O’Brien from the get go by trading for a traditional post up center and dribble penetration point guard who didn’t have a three point shot to getting a wing player in the free agent market that did not have an outside shot.

So from today forward every time that I see Troy Murphy at the five spot or I have to try and figure out which of the 6’4” players is the power forward I will no longer blame Jim O’Brien.

From this day forward this all falls squarely on the shoulders of Larry Bird. It is obvious that Bird supports this and if he doesn’t support this he should have made a change.

Like Fox Mulder I still want to believe in what Bird is doing but frankly nothing and I mean nothing will change next season because until we change the culture of our team (where have we heard that before) from the top then nothing else matters. We may all want a power player in the draft or some great point guard, but none of those matters at all if we have a coach who will either misuse them or not use them at all.

Okay, some one correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we run a variation of the Princeton offense? That what it seems to me. It seems to be an offense based on most of the players hanging around the permeter for either backdoor cuts or a three point shot. It's an offense designed for a team whose players aren't the most athletically talented and is supposed to allow you to match up better against more talented, athletic teams. The key is that you outsmart your opponent by punishing them with the backcuts and tagging them with the three pointers when they sag off in anticipation.

And isn't that type of offense based on a supreme passing center?

That is one of the major issues I've had with this team. Bird seems to be recruiting round pegs to fit in a square hole.

The best example of the Princeton offense is the past were those Adelman teams with Divac and Webber being the hub for the offense. Do we have a comparable player? Princeton offense requires a quick thinking guard who's forte is passing, not penetration. Do we have that?

Now will say when we drafted Hibbert, I saw him as a young Illgaukas type...and I still do, but O'Brien won't use him that way. Make him the hub for the offense and work on his passing skills. With his shooting range, he could/should fullfill a type of role Brad Miller did for us.

(BTW, statistically, the best passing big men in the league are guys like David Lee, Boozer, Duncan and David West)

(edit-I just got to thinking, after mentioning David Lee's passing, the Knicks have three players who would fit into what O'Brien says he wants to do: David Lee, Sergio Rodriquez and Bill Walker. Interesting)

Maybe I'm off base, and someone tell me if I am, but I just don't see what we're trying to do in terms of meshing our personnel with our offensive style. I just don't see what our focus is and that is driving me crazy and I blame Bird as much as O'Brien. And then Bird gives him an extension? What is our identity? What are we trying to do?

Last edited by Skaut_Ech; 04-15-2010 at 10:03 AM.

Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

After saying all that, do you really believe this team with another coach is a PLAYOFF team?
As frustrating as OB might be, is this a playoff team? I think anyone would say no.
This is a team devoid of talent or the talent is too young.

Also, for the admins, where is the profanity filter, specifically the GD filter which was put in place awhile back. As an admin can you overide the filter? If you have I am disappointed.

You know what, yes, yes I do. I bet you Larry Brown would have had this team in the playoffs. I bet Scott Skiles would have had this team in the playoffs. A coach that emphasizes disciplined shot selection, brings an offense that is actually geared toward our personnel, and a coherent rotation pattern would do wonders for this team (I didn't care for playing non-PF at the PF position when we had PF's available). I don't think JOB is the devil or nothing, but I do think his coaching philosophy is not a good fit for this team as currently constructed.

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Honestly, my vision got very blurry about a quarter into the Jim O'Brien stuff.

Not decided if I am going to get into any of this right now. I really just want to enjoy the playoffs starting Saturday. Not sure there is much to say about the Pacers. Maybe in a day or two.

edit: I will add this, I don't have a feel if Jim is coming back or not. The Pacers really, really, really NEED to make the playoffs next season, for the survivial of the "Indiana" Pacers they really need to make the playoffs. They also really need to keep every season ticket holder they have that is threatening or has decided not to renew because Jim is the coach.

If Herb has a meeting with Bird and tells him his job depends on the pacers making the playoffs next season and Herb tells him yes if that means firing O'Brien and we have to pay his salary (what is his salary for next season by the way $3M?) so be it, MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. Coaches salary does not count against the cap, luxury tax, so in effect it is a cheap $3M.

Honestly right now, without knowing any of the inner workers of the franchise or knowing what the relationship is between the coaches and the players, (I cannot determine that from this season, I could make a strong case either way) I think there is an better than 50% chance that Jim is not the coach next season. I'd out the odds at probably 60/40 that he is not back as coach.

If the playoffs are a must next season (with still looking towards next summer as the time to re-make the team) then changing coaches is probably the least expensive way to assure a playoff berth. (we'll see if anyone is reading my posts anymore)

First off, I ALWAYS READ YOUR POSTS. We may disagree about our views on "certain" issues, but I look forward to reading your posts.

You are more confident Jimmy won't be here than I am. I agree with your "the Pacers HAVE to make the playoffs next year" comment. It's on ownership and the Bird to make it happen.

As you get older the aches n pains get more frequent. I know, what a wonderful thing to look forward to..... old age. Elizabeth Barrett Browning wrote "come grow old with me for the best is yet to be."

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

Jim O'Brien's best record, 49 - 33 in 8 professional years. He's just not good.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Odd thoughts the season of our discontent.....

The one thing in your commentary that really jumped out to me was Bird's drafting history.

I know I said this in another thread, but you can look at any successful franchies be it in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, or English premier league and you see a coaching staff and front office on the same page. The Colts are a pass first team so Polian goes out and gets athetlic lineman that can pass block becuase they fit our system the best. He is not going to go out and get a road grader that can't pass block when our system is a passing system.

What has made me question Bird is the fact that he has not drafted or traded for guys that fit the system. Tyler Hansbrough does not spread the court at all. His range is very limited and it is nonexistent in three point land. Hibbert does not spread the court. TJ could not hit a three if his life depended on it. D Jones is a good defensive player, but again he does not shoot the three well. None of these guy fits the system O'Brien has in place. Why would you draft people who do not fit the system? Why did you draft a PF who has limited range when Lawson who shot over 40% in college from three point land and can penetrate as well? Lawson is a much better fit for a JOB system compared to Hansbrough.

Do not get me wrong I like the guys Bird has brought in, but it does not make sense because they do not fit the system.

This also goes back to JOB and him being a bad coach. Like you touched on the guy is so full of himself and his system he refuses to change his system. A sign of a good coach is someone who will tweak their system to get the full potential out of guys. Instead JOB just says screw it and goes with his system no matter what as shown by his reluctance to play Hibbert.

Last night with Murphy playing center at the end even though Hibbert was having a career night and eating up the Wizard it just sums up everything that is wrong with JOB.

Do not even get me started on Murphy's lack of anything resembling defense.