I've managed to NOT shoot several who got that close, but I did go buy a handgun the day after one of those. I considered not shooting them to be a success... but a risky one that required assessing their intentions and their confusion. I did not like being in a position that I had to make that decision. Shooting them would have not only been something I would have to live with, but the aftermath would have to be dealt with as well.

i've only had to hold someone at gunpoint once. i did have to bluff my way out of a situation one time when i didn't actually have a gun and that was what made me decide to get a concealed carry permit. i have owned guns since i was a kid and until that situation never thought there was a need to carry. if someone has entered my home without my permission i don't know that i'll ask questions. i agree that having to shoot someone might weigh heavily on my mind but i'll take that over being dead because i waited. as far as the legal issues go if they're coming in and they know i'm there i'd say it's a pretty clear case of self defense at that point.

Michael and 10framer yall are so right. After I retired I went to work in the prison amongst the population for about two years. If you are found guilty of some wrong doing with a gun then your life is messed up. Other than the loss of freedom, fresh air, privacy, dignity and what ever else. The medical care is a joke. The dental care is a joke. If your mama, spouse, child, is in a car wreck and they only give them 24 hours to live, tough luck - they aren't going to let you out to go see them. I have a concealed permit as well, I don't carry I'm around too many people that are just plain stupid and I don't take stupid very well. so I choose fresh air, my wife has two pistols she carries.

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When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

gary, it's actually pretty rare that i carry. i don't climb on my tractor or walk my land without some kind of gun but i only carry one in public in certain situations. the other reason i got a concealed carry permit was because alabama doesn't consider your vehicle as an extension of your property so without the permit you are in violation of the law if you have a handgun in your vehicle in almost every case. if they catch you with a handgun in your vehicle and no permit they can stop you from ever getting a permit. for 20 dollars a year and a background check it's worth getting the permit. it's a sad world we live in where most of us feel the need to own guns for any use other than sporting. unfortunately that's where we're at.

While I think a shotgun is great for "entertaining" a gang of miscreants on the lawn trying to assault your home, they are worthless face to face, which is how most home invasions go down. That long barrel is slow to handle and easy for the criminal to quickly grasp.

Shotguns don't necessarily have long barrels, and you (hopefully) have both of your strong hands on it when you confront someone.

Weapon-retention and how to move through a house are big parts of serious defensive firearms training. It doesn't sound like you've had any. I promise you it would be a revelation.

>Shotguns don't necessarily have long barrels, and you (hopefully) have both of your strong hands on it when you confront someone.

They all have at least an 18" barrel and that's 14" too long and they have a butt stock and that adds some length.

>Weapon-retention and how to move through a house are big parts of serious defensive firearms training. It doesn't sound like you've had any. I promise you it would be a revelation.

All the confrontations I've had in my house have been face to face. There is no "moving through the house". There is just the guy who just kicked in your door standing an arm's length away in front of you. Things happen fast and they happen in the middle of the night when half asleep. I assure you once you've had one of those it will be a revelation that will overthrow all of your training. The other thing is you can keep a handgun out of the equation until needed. You can't do this with a shotgun. Keeping it available while not visible can keep a situation from escalating. Having it visible when not needed can cause it to escalate. Not having it when you really need it can get you killed. Only a handgun meets my requirements for self defense.

Beemaster, just move. It would certainly be quicker and maybe easier :laugh:

I love the south :cindi:

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Quite difficult matters can be explained even to a slow-witted man, if only he has not already adopted a wrong opinion about them; but the simplest things cannot be made clear even to a very intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he already knows, and knows indubitably, the truth of the matter under consideration. -Leo Tolstoy

I love all the topics we're moving into here. I will be adding a weapons forum to site, maybe under Sporting Forum, not sure - but it is a serious category that many members have opinions on and personally I'd like to see more on the topic here. There are many forums, very good ones indeed concerning fire arms, knives, etc for personal protection, hunting, etc., but beekeepers have issues that I have read over our near decade of Beemaster Forums with the most serious Schawee getting invaded and shot, to hive destruction and this category sure has a place here. This might be a sub forum of General Beekeeping because I think it important.

Remember, I'm still new to much of this, if not all of this. That said, my time learning in the last four months has been somewhat insatiable. My 3 months now waiting on my firearms ID and handguns permit is frustrating, but surely MOVING is not a possibility with 6 years to retirement (3.5 years until my wife retires) and although after retiring I hope to get away from this God Awful "RESTSTOP) between Philadelphia and New York.

A shotgun is so out of the question in my case, of course I could get a hundred of them, that's not an issue once I get the ID card, but our 1800 square ft bi-level home has no place to swing and maneuver such a thing, and again (as Michael said) it lends itself out to be taken away in a struggle, or the very least if the barrel is grabbed and pointed away from an intruder, it is all but useless.

I want a degree of stealth, but feel that I'm in control. My leanings for awhile now is the Glock 19 gen 4 - comes with 3-15rd mags, the weight is good, track record and law enforcement use is remarkable. I need to rent it, fire it a bunch, see how the feel is and I know I'll know if it's the gun I want. I can list a bunch of reasons why this seems where I want to start my testing, although I have said the Sig Sauer M11-A1 is an awesome handgun, much larger learning curve, besides the extra pound in weight which I think will be a personal issue to deal with.

I love the debate of Glocks being single or double actions, I didn't think I'd like striker-fired guns, seeing a hammer is a good visual aid, adds additional shooting or decocking ability, stuff that I think I would like. I know in the Sig that the decocker only returns you to double action, but you are back at 8 pound pull and you know that you are locked and loaded and ready with a little more restraint, using any handgun in a home invasion and self defense situation is life altering, even if fully justified, I know you will be changed. I want to be sure that if I pull the trigger it wasn't out of fear of seeing an unarmed and non-threatening invader(s) in my home - I want to know that I just won't pull a gun and empty it into someone that is NOT a justifiable threat according to the law.

To add on this about the above statement, if it is multiple invaders, I don't think I'll have an issue debating firing my weapon, as soon as I know I am out numbered and a real threat seems valid, I think all bets are off.

So, I continue to wait and wait. I mentioned previous too that it may happen by Christmas, how unacceptable is that! State law says it must be within 30 days - then in the same line, it states which is rarely the case. I know from speaking to the person who will be authorizing my ID that she is the only person who processes applications. I had no idea it was all done locally at my PD where I filed. She stated 2 weeks ago that she was on March's applications and that this massive pile of applications were due to 2 things; there were two homicides in my township this year (how great is THAT for a reason for making me wait 6 months for a gun) and thank you President Obama for scaring the crap out of the country and making everyone who never thought about getting firearms suddenly feel that if they don't get then now, they may never. The previous statement was from the detective in charge of firearms licensing.

I wondered why the gunshop owner asked where I lived when I said I was awaiting my ID, when I said Manchester, he rolled his eyes and said this could be a long wait. I should have gotten from that IDs were processed in your own township, because (remember the road rage incident) which took place in a very populous township, the elderly lady in front of me said it took about 2 months total for hers. I wrongfully gleaned from that (not understanding how things are done) that by now I would have been licensed and in possession of a defense weapon.

Lastly is that clause that you can only buy a handgun every 31 days, no you lucky people with a pocketful of cash, you can't go with a dozen different handguns if you wanted too. One a month is it - so you better pick the one you really really want or you'll have to wait until 31 days to get the next. Plus we are restricted to 3 handguns per permit application, meaning that if you choose to collect a bunch of handguns, you file for your 3 handgun application, wait your 6 or so months for the permits. Being licensed does NOT move you up the ladder to getting handgun permits - you are sent to the bottom of the pile to start over.

So you have 90 days to purchase up to 3 handguns (yes they limit you to how long you can take to get pistols too), continue to wait for the next series of permits to be issued, and again another 6 months from the filing date, so only 3 months after your "90 days to purchase" has expired and then start all over. PURE FOOLISHNESS. And again, don't even waste your time thinking a CCW is possible, it is not going to happen except extreme need is proven. Yes, NJ is called a carry state, but that is something written on paper and not found in the real world.

So I'll go back to wondering why NJ is suck an A$$ about firearms. Sure you have the RIGHT to possess firearms, but they have the ability to delay your legal ownership seemingly as long as they wish.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

>Shotguns don't necessarily have long barrels, and you (hopefully) have both of your strong hands on it when you confront someone.

They all have at least an 18" barrel and that's 14" too long and they have a butt stock and that adds some length.

>Weapon-retention and how to move through a house are big parts of serious defensive firearms training. It doesn't sound like you've had any. I promise you it would be a revelation.

All the confrontations I've had in my house have been face to face. There is no "moving through the house". There is just the guy who just kicked in your door standing an arm's length away in front of you. Things happen fast and they happen in the middle of the night when half asleep. I assure you once you've had one of those it will be a revelation that will overthrow all of your training. The other thing is you can keep a handgun out of the equation until needed. You can't do this with a shotgun. Keeping it available while not visible can keep a situation from escalating. Having it visible when not needed can cause it to escalate. Not having it when you really need it can get you killed. Only a handgun meets my requirements for self defense.

The leverage of a shotgun's buttstock tucked into your side under your arm helps you in a struggle, not your assailant. And the butt and muzzle are awesome less-lethal weapons in their own right. But you're correct about not being able to answer the door with one and keep it a secret. A handgun is concealable, but relatively more difficult to retain, especially if you're grappling with one hand and trying to draw or shoot with the other.

But long arm or handgun, if you don't know how to prevent someone from grabbing it, or what to do if someone does grab it, then you owe it to yourself and your family to get some professional instruction. It's too late to learn how to swim when the boat is sinking. Being murdered would suck. Giving your murderer the murder weapon would suck worse.

i hope if someone is kicking in my door i'll have my wits about me and take cover and have a gun pointing in their direction instead of standing close to the door but some situations are out of your control. if things happen that fast i'd think there's a chance you wouldn't have time to get to your gun anyway. you guys have more faith in your fellow man than me. i'm pretty much going to assume that the guy kicking my door in isn't a friend. i'd have to check but i think alabama law agrees with me.

I have to remind you all too that in New Jersey, POLICE are NOT allowed to use STUN GUNS - lol. I guess Suicide by cops here might be easier than in most states - if the only choice they have is to shoot you, I guess the outcome is pretty clear.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

well if you decide to move down here to dixie we'll welcome you with open arms, same day background checks for purchases and less than a month turn around on permits to carry. if you stay out of atlanta and some of the other big cities you can also enjoy low crime rates (for now anyway). i should warn you that 7 or 8 months of high temperatures and high humidity can be pretty tough if you aren't used to it.

The reality of someone breaking into your house never follows anything you have planned or imagined. Every time is different. But there is never much room. It's a house. Not a field. And no, you will NOT have your wits about you yet. There isn't time to even wake up and suddenly you are faced with life and death decisions.

I have no doubt I could have shot my intruders all four times and the incidents would eventually have been called self defense. (After all this is Nebraska, not New Jersey or New York). I also have no doubt my life would have been a wreck for a long time, it would have cost me more than I had in lawyer fees and I'd have to live with killing someone. I'm quite happy I did NOT shoot them.

Moots

The reality of someone breaking into your house never follows anything you have planned or imagined. Every time is different. But there is never much room. It's a house. Not a field. And no, you will NOT have your wits about you yet. There isn't time to even wake up and suddenly you are faced with life and death decisions.

I have no doubt I could have shot my intruders all four times and the incidents would eventually have been called self defense. (After all this is Nebraska, not New Jersey or New York). I also have no doubt my life would have been a wreck for a long time, it would have cost me more than I had in lawyer fees and I'd have to live with killing someone. I'm quite happy I did NOT shoot them.

That's all true Michael...However, I still stand by the thought process that my Uncle instilled in me from a very young age.... If you think your life is in danger, shoot them!

His logic being pretty simply, He said...I'd much rather have you sitting on the stand trying to explain why you killed them, instead of them being up there trying to explain why they killed you.

Just home from Atlantic City, Lewis Black and Jim Gaffigan were both very very funny. Almost broke even for the whole trip costs just playing penny slots (which aren't pennies any more) you can bet up to 10 dollars a bet on these machines and everything is you put cash or these paper slips from your previous wins into the slots and it pays out in the same or of paper slips WHICH you take to a ATM like cashier machine, feed your slip in and it pumps out all the bills and change you are owed.

Okay, maybe I haven't been in a casino since 1998, but I love this system - put a lot of people out of work, but it figures out any comped meals, etc., and you don't need to deal with people.

Even better, you have a digital screen with every imaginable adult beverage or other drink, touch the right buttons and get your drink of choice delivered in under 5 minutes guaranteed.

BACK TO THE VIDEOS POSTED, look at more of his stuff, especially the California gun laws he speaks of - he enjoys poking at people, but he does make a bunch of sense too!

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

My 120 day wait (from July 2nd) turned out to be "only" 72 days. I now have the CHCL permit card.Turns out, my wife should have gotten hers before me. Well she didn't need the permit, but it was a darn good thing for her she had the pistol available - other wise the guy on drugs with the hatchet might have won that fight. He won't be bothering anyone again....ever.

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The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.- Marcus Aurelius -

I cannot imagine living somewhere that you cannot get a firearm in a day. It only takes a few moments for NICS to verify. I sold a lot of guns with that yellow form in front of me. I understand that they do not want someone to buy a gun in anger... But honestly,, if someone drives toi the gun shop, fills out the form, it gets called in/// verified, and they walk out with the gun.... if they are still that angry. it wont matter if its a week or a year wait.

Shotgun Barrels are minimum length of 16 inches arent they? They used to be, I cut a lot of them to 16.5... There is NOTHING that will beat a semi auto shotgun with the stock replaced with a handgrip, and a foregrip. People talk about capacity, but I have to tell you, if you have to expend more than two or three rounds you ARE in trouble...

The debate over the .45 against the smaller cal handguns has raged for a long time. I loved my .45's I built a lot of them, and had a matched pair with wider grips to allow me to double stack. If capacity is your concern, you can get or have made clips that will hold thirty plus rounds, though they stick way out the bottom and are ungainly it is possible.. I have owned MANY guns in smaller cal.. My wife uses a DA Only .40 that is small and fits her hands nicely. I really liked my Beretta. it shot well, and reliably, but the 9mm cal never made me comfortable. I liked the .45 IF,,, I ever had to shoot someone, I know that it would be one or two shots in total, so If I had to use those one or two shots, I wanted them to be as lethal as possible, and carry as much impact as possible... I have witnessed in hunting, the difference between blood trail philosophy, and total energy transfer.. Where the hunter wanted the bullet to exit, so that there would be two openings, and allow him to follow the animal to where it died, OR, the hunter wanted the bullet to stay inside the animal and deliver ALL of its energy into the vitals... If the shot placement is good, there is no need to follow more than fifty to one hundred yards at most. I will go with the total energy transfer every time. A human is not an animal. Getting shot tends to change the mind of pretty much anyone in a dramatic way, UNLESS the person being shot is drugged in some way. Adrenalin, mixed with some drugs can do amazing things. Perpetrators never even KNOWING they have been shot with a smaller cal as an example. One of the fellows In my classes to get my instructors license shot one such criminal trying to rob his gun store seven times with a .25 ACP, and nearly died when the criminal started returning fire. He expended nine shots, hit him 7 times, and the guy never even blinked.

Having spent a lot of time with handguns, and having two people I taught, and sold firearms to regularly actually SHOOT someone IN their home, I can tell you that their lives were never the same again, but the difference was HAVING a life. In both cases, The emotional trauma was extreme, but also in both cases they survived, as did their families. It would seem that it was not an easy thing to do, or decide, But in both cases the judgement was an easy one to make when the trigger was pulled. Both men told me they didnt even think twice about it, until after the fact. When someone breaks into your bedroom, AFTER you warned them to get out, or be shot, it does not take a lot of thinking. The aftermath was very different and came close to tearing both familes apart. Hindsight is 20/20 they say, but I disagree.. those men constantly thought.. WHAT IF What if I had shot the wall to let him KNOW i had a gun... etc... No one blamed them, both criminals had extensive records. The investigations were fast and decisive in their favor, and yet they beat themselves mentally for years.

Have a dog, even if its a small one, and DONT, let it sleep in the bed with you. It stays in the living room, and WILL give you warning and wake you up, often allowing you the time you need to be prepared to defend.

The reality of someone breaking into your house, is that they will likely NOT be kicking the door in. They will carefully break a window, jimmy the lock etc.. and you will have NO idea they are there until it is too late unless you sleep with your gun under your pillow, locked and loaded.

Many laws now, DEMAND that you keep your guns in a safe, WITH a trigger lock of some type, and that defeats the entire purpose of owning the gun in the first place. if you have to open the safe, and remove the trigger lock, your already dead.

SO long as we dont stand up and vote, issues like the OP had will continue to get worse.. It is ILLEGAL according to our constitution to restrict our RIGHT to own guns.. it is not a privilege, it is a RIGHT and CANNOT BE INFRINGED!!!! Well, after reading what the OP went through, I would certainly say he was seriously infringed, and some places "INFRINGE" even worse than what he went through... How did that happen? WHY? Because we allowed it to happen.... And continue to allow it to happen............