"If you leave us in peace, we will do you no harm. If you wish to join us, we will set a chair at our table and work to our mutual benefit. If you work against us, we will have no choice but to retaliate."

Yes. Yes he did. Two people, in fact. And I intend to make sure that Morgana learns of that.

Well she certainly has the right to know. But we should take it easy, Qara. Cool off, let's rest on this and come back to it. This isn't a black and white situation and while your points are all very relevant, I still think we need to consider everything. Morgan came to us in the chat room openly, just as we've been HOPING for all along. We have to get her credit for that and at least consider what she said.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

Well I'm not sure where particularly I stand, as I'm still waiting for Mr.A to come in and at least attempt to explain things from his end, I can think of a reason the Cabal is more open to our help. Specifically, that Morgan wants us to get the other physical pieces of the wall, which as we saw with Holmes actually harmed him from being near it. If this holds up, then if they want to safely gather all of them, they need people like us (who won't be affected by them, since well, derp) to get the objects for them. This may explain the willingness to compromise as well as the stronger effort to open communications, since we're the best chance they got at finding them.

Now, the recent echo calls into question what i just said, as they're standing near a piece quite unharmed. So I'm not 100% on what I just said, but it makes sense to me. Take that what you will.

If you ever need to ask the questions "Am I needed? Should I help them?" The answer is always yes. Always.

What can I say? I'm a black-and-white person, for the most part. And I can't help but compartmentalize a group led by a murderer, who frequently engage in uttering dangerous threats and falsifying evidence for the courts in order to wrongfully imprison an innocent person-- as evil.

The Cabal have convinced me, time and again through their actions and words, that they are, purely and irredeemably, evil. So forgive me if I seem a little black-and-white on the issue. Mr. A, while he can be abstruse at times, at least claims to be trying to save our lives and our world. The Cabal make no such claims; by their own admission, their goals are entirely selfish.

Meanwhile... I am very eager to see this open forum the Cabal are purportedly developing. Even though I think I know what it will mean, and if I'm right, it's something I spent the past couple of weeks desperately trying to prevent. It's out of my hands, now. I'll just have to trust in my ability to make the most of the situation.

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Meanwhile... I am very eager to see this open forum the Cabal are purportedly developing. Even though I think I know what it will mean, and if I'm right, it's something I spent the past couple of weeks desperately trying to prevent. It's out of my hands, now. I'll just have to trust in my ability to make the most of the situation.

Technically, it's always been out of your hands, Qara. All the complaining and scheming could not have prevented this outcome.

Also, I'd just like to say that there was one anti-Cabal there, and that was me. And if you saw the full chat log, you would see that several times I tried to call them out on their actions, as did a couple of others. I was either ignored, told to shut up by my fellow metaguards (which I did NOT appreciate, by the way ), or given very little response. The best she gave me was that she wanted to do something to benefit Joan. For once, I'm kind of convinced that they mean it. I'm kind of willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, we probably should go after the letters. I mean, knowledge is power. We can learn more about who these agents are that are working for Mr. A and how they operate. Maybe we can learn more about the wall pieces and their affects, and it may lead us to other discoveries such as whether there is a catastrophe to prevent. I don't think we should just back away from it because we're afraid to give up the man power or fear it may doom us all. What do we have to lose if we just let a couple more pieces fall into the wrong hands? The knowledge we could gain from it could be more than worth it.

If everyone would just agree with me, there would never be any problems.

I would like to address a few preliminary points before I sit down to work over this in more detail. First of all, this is giving me way too many vibes of a Hannibal Lecture. The excuses tendered for their actions be Morgan were flimsy, flawed at their core, and intimately familiar to me, since I've seen them time and time again in fiction after fiction.

Second, I do not care what Mr. Administrator says on the matter, I cannot condone frivolously writing a re-fic that allows a villain of Morgan's caliber to "rule the world with an iron fist". Remember, the characters int hat fiction are as real as Morgan is. If that is seriously her idea of a "happy ending", then I truly have no qualms about sending her right back to the doom she knows is coming, and wiping her memories just to top it off. It proves that she has not changed in the slightest, and so I shall treat her as the villain she is. Of course, if she wasn't serious, then that was just a silly, foolish attempt to make me pause, and also rather asinine. Really, can't you come up with a better excuse? I'm sure you can. So next time, use it.

Finally, I shall begin going over her claims in great detail and testing them against the theories we hold now. The idea that the state of the wall and its fragments was what was causing the issues was already something I was considering, as this post, made before the incident, shows. As I stated just now on that thread, I'm going to collect what information we have and attempt to extrapolate all the information I can from it. I shall then apply the claims of both sides to it and see what happens. I have some other things I need to be doing, though, so I will be delayed further.

Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."

Also, I'll do my best to increase my post size further, just for you, Morgan.

Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."

Almost forgot: I am FIRMLY against returning to echo locations, or at least doing so and then actually posting the information that resulted online, at least for now. We are a tram, guys, so let's act like one. If you think you can go and do it, and you really want to, then OK, but PLEASE don't post that information up yet. We need to go over what we know and figure out where to go from here before we take a step beyond the point of no return.

Normal people are the easiest to manipulate. Too smart and they have an annoying tendency to catch wind of your plans, too dumb and, in the words of a certain pirate, "You can never tell when they are about to do something incredibly...stupid."

Also, people keep insisting that it's worthwhile to seek out the remaining wall pieces, despite the fact that this will enable the Cabal to steal the rest of them.To them I have only one thing more to say.

(Edit: What Sicon said. All of what Sicon said. I agree.)

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Eh, I can live with longer walls of text. Anything for the cause!

Also, people keep insisting that it's worthwhile to seek out the remaining wall pieces, despite the fact that this will enable the Cabal to steal the rest of them.To them I have only one thing more to say.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Eh, I can live with longer walls of text. Anything for the cause!

Also, people keep insisting that it's worthwhile to seek out the remaining wall pieces, despite the fact that this will enable the Cabal to steal the rest of them.To them I have only one thing more to say.

(Edit: What Sicon said. All of what Sicon said. I agree.)

Well if we got them before they did, we'd have quite a bargaining chip. For both Mr.A and the Cabal.

If you ever need to ask the questions "Am I needed? Should I help them?" The answer is always yes. Always.

Meta-wise, I don't think it would be possible for us to actually secure the wall pieces ourselves. Much more likely that the Cabal would nab them, and we'd be all doomed.

Also, A is not threatening anyone in that tweet. He, and I, are merely issuing a warning, and setting up an "I told you so" should worst come to worst. Please take the warning, so I won't have to say it. I'm starting to feel like Cassandra with all these unheeded but accurate warnings.

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Meta-wise, I don't think it would be possible for us to actually secure the wall pieces ourselves. Much more likely that the Cabal would nab them, and we'd be all doomed.

Also, A is not threatening anyone in that tweet. He, and I, are merely issuing a warning, and setting up an "I told you so" should worst come to worst. Please take the warning, so I won't have to say it. I'm starting to feel like Cassandra with all these unheeded but accurate warnings.

I respect your opinion Qara, but you need to respect the others as well. Everything we have and do believe in is all based on words without actual proof. People are gonna believe what they want to believe, and it isn't our place to change their mind. We're listening to everyone's opinions here and we'll make a decision based on them. I gather you might not like that idea, but that's what's happening. Please understand, I'm looking for the best course of action for us to take, and right now events have called into question what exactly that IS.

If you ever need to ask the questions "Am I needed? Should I help them?" The answer is always yes. Always.

-- The wall, as evidenced by the characters being here and the echoes, has cracked.-- The wall pieces, as evidenced by the physical wall pieces, exit within reality.-- Mr. A has been guarding the wall pieces, "wrapping them in fiction," to keep them from becoming a part of the wall again.-- The Cabal has found one and taken it.-- The Cabal was led to it by the Mr. A images in the comics.-- Mr. A explicitly did not know what the images were nor that they led to the wall pieces.-- Mr. A has an agent who has found no proof of the instability or imminent destruction of reality.-- The Cabal found these letters - maybe through the locator - and believe that Mr. A's agents are leaving more letters by the old wall pieces.-- Mr. A and Morgan both seem to have theories about why things are the way they are, what's causing destruction, and what that could spell for the end. Both are only theories. One or neither may be true. This is what we know.

So Mr. A has collected evidence pointing in the negative. The Cabal collected Mr. A's collection of evidence. Right? So far, honestly? Neither seems much more credible than the other.

EXCEPT.

The Cabal has very limited resources. It makes sense that their proving that reality is stable, given limited manpower and limited time and limited EVERYTHING, would be a fruitless investigation.

Mr. A literally has infinite instantiations. If he has not found anything that looks like proof - and if he has, then for whatever stupid reason he hasn't shared it - that means much more to me than a group of four essentially human beings unable to prove something that should be taken for granted as normal anyway. He didn't even realize that the images of him led to the wall pieces. If he can't even use the empirical data of "HEY, THOSE PLACES SURE DO LOOK FAMILIAR" to realize what sort of information he's freely giving away, how can we trust him with a thorough investigation and hypotheses that make sense given the set of data?

So I side more with the Cabal there.

Let's take another look at some of the things Morgan was saying in the chatbox.

She was accusing us of acting as "bad" as she does. I think she's right. Know why? Because we're all doing things that make the most sense to the continuation of life as we wish for it to continue.

We've done what we had to do in many of these situations. We are prepared to send back characters who really REALLY don't want to go back in order to secure our own lives and livelihoods. Some have said on this forum that the Cabal deserves to be sent back into horrible stories because of how awful they are. We hacked into someone's private voicemail because we were trying to protect a single person, but because we were trying to protect humanity...ourselves. And we've tricked people into trusting us when we all had ulterior motives, even though we are trying to correct that now.

Well guess what? The fact that Morgan stopped by the chat today tells me that they are trying to correct things too.

They've been acting in their best interest in the same way we've been acting in ours. They care about what's going to happen to them. We care about what's going to happen to us. None of us wants to be condemned by not doing everything we can to save what is important to us. So to me? That says we're all on the same page.

Another thing. Something I view as important.

Morgan said that she is willing to make concessions. She is willing to stop her pursuit of Every Last Fictional to keep them here, and let them go if they want to go. Has Mr. A been willing to make any concessions beyond giving us an AMA? I don't think the two even compare. So for all of you guys saying the Cabal characters aren't changing in their time here: yo. Nothing I've ever read or heard about Morgan mentioned her being willing to compromise.

So right now, I'm feeling like I'm about ready to kick ass and get wall pieces, and I'm all out of smartphones.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:I know. It's just... really annoying. I wish I'd been there, to see how she'd have addressed more of my arguments. As it is, I'm just hoping they'll make another appearance when I'm around.

So much this.

Shame you didn't get to quiz her more about Pan. C'mon guys, she said she was trying to protect him from the hurricane? Bullshit. Fine, get him arrested, that detains him temporarily. There is no need for the Cabal to ensure that his trial is rigged to high hell if they just wanted to protect him from that brief occurrence. So there's at least one lie.

Sicon112 wrote:Also, I'll do my best to increase my post size further, just for you, Morgan.

It's probably incredibly stupid of me to argue with the admin, but hey, when has something being suicidally stupid prevented me from doing it? If I see something I feel is wrong, I have to speak up, admin or no.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:The Cabal has very limited resources. It makes sense that their proving that reality is stable, given limited manpower and limited time and limited EVERYTHING, would be a fruitless investigation.

Mr. A literally has infinite instantiations. If he has not found anything that looks like proof - and if he has, then for whatever stupid reason he hasn't shared it - that means much more to me than a group of four essentially human beings unable to prove something that should be taken for granted as normal anyway. He didn't even realize that the images of him led to the wall pieces. If he can't even use the empirical data of "HEY, THOSE PLACES SURE DO LOOK FAMILIAR" to realize what sort of information he's freely giving away, how can we trust him with a thorough investigation and hypotheses that make sense given the set of data?

Mr. A is dealing with something never-before-heard-of, on a massive scale. His infinite instantiations are a little tied up with, yes, panicking, as well as keeping all of us alive, keeping track of us, keeping what remains of the wall stable, keeping the remaining wall pieces safe, keeping more fictionals from crossing into the real world, keeping an eye on everything, and, oh yeah, all the jobs he'd be doing when there isn't a crisis.

The Cabal have a lot less to deal with, because frankly, they don't need to deal with any of that stuff. If you were dealing with someone who was more obviously, relatably, humanoid, you'd let him off with "he's only human". Mr. A might not be human, but he is only... whatever he is. He isn't perfect, but at least he tries. I can't help feeling that you're sympathizing with the Cabal just because they're more shaped like you.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:She was accusing us of acting as "bad" as she does. I think she's right. Know why? Because we're all doing things that make the most sense to the continuation of life as we wish for it to continue.

We've done what we had to do in many of these situations. We are prepared to send back characters who really REALLY don't want to go back in order to secure our own lives and livelihoods. Some have said on this forum that the Cabal deserves to be sent back into horrible stories because of how awful they are. We hacked into someone's private voicemail because we were trying to protect a single person, but because we were trying to protect humanity...ourselves. And we've tricked people into trusting us when we all had ulterior motives, even though we are trying to correct that now.

...Okay, I'll be honest. I'm sick of the "we've tricked people into trusting us despite our ulterior motives" argument because that's what people do all the time. It's how we, as a species, live. Everyone's always got their own agenda. Every instance of human interaction involves deception and/or manipulation, at least on some level, and we're just going to have to learn to live with that.

And yes, we hacked Joan's voicemail, if only to hear the threats that the Cabal were leaving there. Uttering threats? A criminal offense. So you could call us quits on the matter of the voicemail.

...But frankly, Ed, I'm a little disappointed that you of all people seem to forgive and forget, pretty easily, the fact that these are the people who drove your friend out of his home, forcing him to go on the run, with their threatening letters. Threatening Joe was a bonding activity for them. We're not on that level, and we won't be, no matter how many voicemails we hack, how many people we manipulate, how many angry fanfictions we write.

We don't deliberately make innocent people feel unsafe. We don't falsify court evidence-- another criminal offense-- in order to make a heartwarming moment seem like disgusting villainy, thereby wrongly imprisoning another innocent person. We don't murder innocent people, in order to frame more innocent people for the crime simply because we dislike them.

I don't care what platitudes Morgan and her ilk spout, because actions speak louder and words. And their actions, and ours, clearly declare that we're not like them.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:Well guess what? The fact that Morgan stopped by the chat today tells me that they are trying to correct things too.

Well, no. All it tells me is that they're willing to take the next step towards fooling and manipulating us-- and, from what you and others have said, it looks like it's working.

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:Morgan said that she is willing to make concessions. She is willing to stop her pursuit of Every Last Fictional to keep them here, and let them go if they want to go. Has Mr. A been willing to make any concessions beyond giving us an AMA? I don't think the two even compare. So for all of you guys saying the Cabal characters aren't changing in their time here: yo. Nothing I've ever read or heard about Morgan mentioned her being willing to compromise.

What the hell does it give us that she's said she's willing to stop trying to convince Every Last Fictional to stay, when, by her own admission, they've already contacted all of them? That's like one country agreeing to a ceasefire right after they've bombed the hell out of the other. I fail to see what we stand to gain, or what she stands to lose, from this so-called "compromise".

Mr. A's given us Gurt. He's given us the fictional Metaguards. He gave us answers, when pressed, about that letter, and he even apologized for trying to conceal it from us initially. Incidentally, an apology is one thing the Cabal still haven't offered, not even for the most obvious thing-- i.e., what they did to Joe.

Keep in mind that Mr. A, for all his infinite instantiations and near-infinite knowledge, is confined to the Void. There's not much he can do, physically, without help from his real-world agents, such as us. The Cabal, on the other hand, have already shown that they can do plenty, and little enough of it good.

Oh, and yo. Nothing I've ever read or heard about Morgan mentioned her being unwilling to flat-out lie in order to get what she wants.

TL;DR: I'm disappointed in you, Ed. And I side with A over the Cabal more than ever right now. Anyone planning to look for those wall pieces-- I can't stop you. But you do so at the risk of your world and mine.

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Okay, I'm coming back here from the chatroom, because apparently I didn't express myself well up there.

I'm... sorry, Ed. I realize that I probably came across as overly antagonistic, and that was not my intention. I'm, well, like everyone, I'm trying to deal with a lot of new information at once here (and it probably didn't help that I wrote that wall of text first thing in the morning, when I wasn't awake enough to think about how I sounded).

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was attacking you, Ed. That's the last thing I want to know-- after all, you're the closest thing to a conductor that we've got on this tram. We're a tram, and you're our admin, you're AWESOME-- it even says so in your name.

I still stand by all the points I made; I'm still pro-A, anti-Cabal, and dead set against finding the Wall pieces. But I don't want to express that in such a way that hurts people here. I certainly know how much an ill-advised forum post can hurt feelings, and that's the last thing I'd want to do. You guys are my friends. I love you all.

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:-- The Cabal found these letters - maybe through the locator - and believe that Mr. A's agents are leaving more letters by the old wall pieces.-- Mr. A and Morgan both seem to have theories about why things are the way they are, what's causing destruction, and what that could spell for the end. Both are only theories. One or neither may be true. This is what we know.

Could this perhaps be a reason why we SHOULD find the pieces? I’m not saying we should do so to help the Cabal, but if we could obtain more pieces then surely we’ll also find Agent X’s letters... They could help with gaining further proof as to exactly what is happening with the wall. Oberon doesn’t seem to think Mister A will give us straight answers and, while I’m inclined to agree with Sicon at this point re: their trustworthiness, I think she MAY be right on that front. He has not been giving us answers, either because he himself does not possess them, or because he is afraid of how we will REACT to those answers.

We’re going on and on about trusting him, about whether we should... but does he trust US? Would he give us more direct information if we knew for sure that he did?

EdwardTheAwesome wrote:The Cabal has very limited resources. It makes sense that their proving that reality is stable, given limited manpower and limited time and limited EVERYTHING, would be a fruitless investigation.

This is also, on an aside note, why I suggest asking the only other fictional who has shown herself to have an almost supernatural grasp of science and technology in our world – maybe the witch can find the proof neither Mister A, nor the Cabal can?

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

I have one final idea: we don’t know who to trust here, therefore I suggest it’s time we engaged in yet another of the tropes that brought us here and frankly, guys, I don't give two ticks if this is 'less narratively sound' or 'a cop out'. Our WORLD'S FATE is not just some plot at the end of a book that we want to be resovled in the most interesting way possible. Real life does NOT have last minute rescues or the cavallry. All the real world has right now is Us. Ergo this is my suggestion. We don't know if we can trust Mister A for certain. We don't know if we can trust the Cabal.

But surely we can trust EACH OTHER?

We're the Metaguards. We've been in this together from the start, because we cared about a man who just wanted to share the truth. We were brought here because we love fiction. Lordxana once called us the Nuclear option and we've all held the weight of that together. We are here because we care about stories and because we want to protect our world... I'd like to think we've also come to care about each other, in spite of all our differing opinions.

I know this is corny but screw it. I love you guys, all of you, and I don't want to see us fall apart over this.

So... Let’s Take a Third Option.

If we were to find these pieces of the wall (and thus also find the letters by Agent X, which I believe are now associated with those pieces)... could we then protect them OURSELVES, as a third party? Could we somehow get to them BEFORE The Cabal; does, or even ask the Cabal straight if they would allow us to take the pieces (we have the same goals, why should they refuse)? Could we keep them away from both the Wall AND the Cabal until we’re sure who to trust? So long as they don't go back into the wall we're okay, right? At the very least it buys us time.

There MUST be a third party here, someone we can send the pieces to for guardianship... I don't know how but let's at least try, guys, we're the only people we can trust right now.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

Scarab, meta-wise, I doubt it would be possible for us to secure the wall pieces.

Still, if it were possible... well, I still think it's a bad idea. But I trust you lot a hell of a lot more than I trust the Cabal.

Can I make a suggestion/request? If people do locate more of these letters-- please don't publicize the wall piece locations. Copy/paste the letter, with the location censored out, and either sit on it until we've seen all the information and are better able to decide, as a tram, if we really want to risk the Cabal finding out the locations, or PM someone close to the location with the information and privately secure the wall pieces before making the information public.

(And speaking of willingness to compromise-- this is a huge compromise from me, since I do firmly believe that seeking out these wall pieces may seriously compromise our reality. Okay, I'll stop overusing the world compromise... now.)

Why are we even arguing about a dead fictional dude and hypothetical ninjas?

Seeing that Ed has stated his standing. I'd like to call Joe to the table. Have his thoughts on the matter as well. If we can't trust Mr. A or Morgan directly, at least let's have all our human allies manifest themselves.

Failing that, I propose a course of action: The wall pieces should be sought only after the willing characters are successfully refictionalized. The reason for that is that Morgan said the Cabal are willing to let them go. It will be a way to test their honesty in the offer, after all we still hold the power to send them back by force if need be. More than that, we need help getting to Guliver, for instance, persuading Silver to allow us to talk to his friend and explain the situation to him should be something the Cabal has enough power to do. If they are unwilling to help us refic the willing fictionals, then I have no option to trust their goodwill at all.

As for willing fictionals, I mean resolving the Romeo and Juliet plot; Gulliver and whether Silver will want to go with his friend or not; Holmes at the moment he says he is ready to go; And Pan clearly wants to go to Neverland. I'm unaware about Poirot's wishes, as for Adam the deadline is just past, I'm sure it's too late to actually stop it. EDIT: And Don. After explaining his situation after he recovers, we must allow him to choose too. Before deciding to aiding the Cabal in their quest.

As for Ches, the cat is Insane, he'll get what he wants one way or another.

Last edited by Pixelmage on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Qara-Xuan Zenith wrote:Scarab, meta-wise, I doubt it would be possible for us to secure the wall pieces.

Still, if it were possible... well, I still think it's a bad idea. But I trust you lot a hell of a lot more than I trust the Cabal.

Can I make a suggestion/request? If people do locate more of these letters-- please don't publicize the wall piece locations. Copy/paste the letter, with the location censored out, and either sit on it until we've seen all the information and are better able to decide, as a tram, if we really want to risk the Cabal finding out the locations, or PM someone close to the location with the information and privately secure the wall pieces before making the information public.

(And speaking of willingness to compromise-- this is a huge compromise from me, since I do firmly believe that seeking out these wall pieces may seriously compromise our reality. Okay, I'll stop overusing the world compromise... now.)

If it helps, I'm worried about that too. But as you say: I don't know if I can trust either side of the party here but I DO trust the metaguards. I still say at the very least the letters and pieces would be safer with US. Of course, since we're going to be working out where the pieces are on the forum anyway there is nothing to stop the Cabal tracing the steps right along with us, or even working it out first. I don't know how we'd prevent that.

So... what can we do? Perhaps we could ask the Cabal to agree NOT to track down the wall pieces? To leave them to us? We could make the same request of Mister A. I... don't know if that's a stupid idea on my part. The Cabal won't trust Mister A to keep his bargain and vice versa, but perhaps they will trust US?

The wall pieces... these are actual PHYSICAL objects am I right? They can probably, then, be picked up and held, taken away and protected somewhere. If they aren't actually physical objects then this gets more complicated. We may need to find an ally (perhaps a Fictional, probably one who wishes to go back), to guard them for us.

Meta: I'm not trying to snap at the GM's or anything, I'm sure they know how to play the game, but I still think it's only fair that taking a third option SHOULD be acceptable.

Pixelmage wrote:Seeing that Ed has stated his standing. I'd like to call Joe to the table. Have his thoughts on the matter as well. If we can't trust Mr. A or Morgan directly, at least let's have all our human allies manifest themselves.

Agreed. Joe is another person whom I trust in this. I am willing to wait on what he has to say about all this (I suspect he'll say something quite soon). If he chooses a pathway... I'm tempted to take it.

They sometimes say, "the place where I am right now was circled on a map for me"... Unfortunately, I kind of suck at orienteering.

Edward weighs in with suggestions about what we should do very rarely, so when he does I tend to give his words extra consideration.

I think we should at least try to determine where the wall pieces are. However, I think this course of action is very dangerous and should be undertaken with utmost caution. For instance, the suggestion that individuals learn where the wall pieces are and don’t tell the rest of us seems reasonable.

While we might be able to protect the pieces from the Cabal ourselves, it’s possible that trying to do so would make the pieces EASIER for the Cabal to find, and we’d put ourselves in danger in the process.

The time may come when we have to make a choice, though, and that choice could have disastrous consequences: Do we seal the wall after the fictionals have all been sent back, or with some, who wish to remain, still on this side? Collecting the wall pieces brings us closer to this choice.

As I’ve said before, sealing the wall without knowing what broke it or how to break it again is just too dangerous. We can’t risk taking an action that cannot be reversed. Even if we do know how to break the wall again if we need to, it would still be extremely dangerous to do so.

Now, consider plot structure. From the beginning it’s been clear that tropes, as well as characters, are crossing over, and we’ve found that applying our knowledge of fiction to this situation has enabled us to figure some things out. So it’s fair to apply expectations from fiction to our current situation.

In many stories, the villains are not defeated until after they’ve succeeded, or nearly succeeded, in their goal. It may not be possible to refictionalize the Cabal until they gather all the wall pieces and are in the process of trying to seal the wall with them on this side.

Of course, waiting for the Cabal to try sealing the wall would be extremely dangerous. We’d be risking EVERYTHING to give ourselves the optimal opportunity to save everything. I’m hesitant to intentionally allow them to get this far before we make our move against them, but depending on how things go we might wind up in that situation anyway.

tl;drI think we should start trying to find the wall pieces but I’m scared, and no matter what happens we’ll be in extreme danger.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after.