TimMurphy wrote:You probably don't want to go alone either. Not because it's an arduous hike, but because you are far enough off the road that should anything happen to you you might be SOL unless you get lucky.

wgmiller wrote:Great follow-up and nice to see that action was taken on angler feedback. I've fished Black/Hayes on a few occasions in the past and only found brook trout. This was the stretch from 534 upstream to where the stream splits. I'm assuming that the stream that goes to the left (north) is Hayes as Black Creek goes northeast? ...

WG, the stream is listed as Hayes Creek on some maps and Black Creek on others. At the split Hayes/Black Creek goes to the left and Fourth Run to the right (northeast).

troutbert wrote:In the lower site they got 26.7 kg/ha, which is below the 40 kg/ha mark that defines Class A streams. That's pretty typical for a freestone stream.

At the upper site they got 167.59. That's a very high number. It's rare that freestone streams have that high of a population. There is probably some "special" situation there that is leading to such a high number.

They might be getting some trout from the river that move up there when the river gets warm.

They should do another survey site further up the creek to get a better idea of the population.

I noticed that too and wondered if package plants are adding nutrients. Cause the streams in the park are pretty acidic in the headwaters. One of the culverts near the mouth is pretty inpassable during low water.

Like most small wild trout waters, u gotta be first through or your wasting your time. Anglers aren't the only creatures that spook fish. I've seen flocks of merganers there(they come up from the lehigh) more than once and they will send trout into hiding for hours. If your following up behind them, you won't see signs of any trout whatsoever.

I never doubted the number of fish because each spring u can see all the yoy trout in the shallows which gives u a good idea of whats in there. Its an "A" stream but it gets a "D" for consistency and a "C" for fishability. Nice-looking water but generally its minimal reward for max effort.

Fourth Run is acid-affected(pH around 4-4.2) so trout numbers there are minimal. Few large pools as well. If anything, it impairs the lower section of Hayes.

23.4 sounds great to most but for being a Class "A" stream. fairly remote and with 3+ miles of continuous access, its not a good number from an angling success pov.

Its also interesting that among my "Top ten" best streams. only 4 of them are Class "A"., In fact the top three are not "A". Just goes to show that there are some great public waters out there not on any list - as of yet.

Disclaimer: my #'s are mostly based upon spin fishing which I do about 90% of the time. Of the 23 trips to Hayes, only two were ff and none particularly good(6 and 8 fish respectively)

Interesting stats. Clearly the electroshocking shows that fish are there, however, as has been stated by Mike in the past, a fishing is not the most effective means to catch them. I'll keep the study in the back of my head, but still have a gut feeling that on a flyfishing effort/reward scale, this creek is pretty low.

I was thinking of giving it a shot. I've read that the fishing can be exceptional in two guide books.

I don't know that I would classify any stream that I've fished in the wintertime as exceptional, because I usually fish freestoners and they slow remarkably as the cold sets in. The bedrock geology there is predominantly sandstone, so I don't think there would be any limestone influence to keep the water warmer. But, my wintertime wanderings are always more about being outside prospecting; catching fish is always a bonus. I don't have any specific experience on this stream, but that doesn't mean that the guide books are wrong or that one couldn't glean equal enjoyment in exploring it during the winter.

I'm sure it's an extremely low alkalinity, infertile freestoner. Seemingly all of the small, steep Pocono streams are that way. Most are pretty tannic too. Not sure on Black/Hayes, but I bet it is at least somewhat tannic. Someone that's fished it can verify.

I agree with salmonoid that on most days, it won't fish very well in Winter, despite what any guide books may say. This is pretty much standard for small freestoners in Winter. If you catch them after a rain, and during a warming trend you can have a decent day, but they won't show their best stuff until the afternoon water temp is consistently in the mid 50's, or higher. Even then, and especially with Browns, you want to fish them after a rain event.

As salmonoid mentioned, Winter is the best time to do your scouting...less brush along the streams and easier to get around. If you're walking along the stream though, you might as well take your rod!

I was going through some pics and found this one from Hayes/Black Creek from 2010. I think I remember posting this pic and asking if folks thought this brookie was wild or stocked. It's size makes it questionable. It was one of only 3 trout I caught that day.