Ask the Readers: Why Don’t People Talk About Money?

On Wednesday, I visited a fifth-grade class in McMinnville, Oregon to talk with the kids about money. I had a great time, and I’ll share more about the experience on Monday. Today, though, I want to start by sharing a question I received from one of the students.

“How much money do you have?” Hannah asked when I called on her.

“I’m not going to answer that?” I said.

“Nobody answers that,” said a boy named Max.

“Why do you think that is?” I asked.

I was curious about the fifth-grade perspective on this subject, so we talked about it for a little while. Some of the kids thought adults just don’t like to share things about themselves. Others said that if you talked about how much money you had, then other people would be more likely to steal it. I offered my own thoughts.

“I think people don’t talk about how much money they have because nobody wants to feel bad,” I said. “For example, if I have a lot of money and you don’t, then talking about money might make you feel bad. Or if you have a lot of money and I’m poor, then talking about money would probably make me feel bad.”

I believe that, ultimately, people don’t talk about money with strangers out of fear of being judged.

I explained that most people do talk about money, but only with people they know well, such as family and friends. (Not everyone talks about money, I know, but I believe most people are willing to share with those they’re close to.)

The kids didn’t seem to find my argument terribly convincing. In fact, after school was over, Hannah came up pose the same question again. “How much money do you have really?” she asked.

“I’m not going to answer that,” I said.

“Are you a millionaire?” she asked.

“I’m not going to answer that either,” I said.

She gave an exasperated sigh and left to catch the bus.

Yesterday, I told this story to my Spanish teacher, who is from Peru. She and I have discussed cultural attitudes toward money before. She thinks Americans talk about finances far too freely. And apparently she’s not the only one. In one of my favorite Spanish-language podcasts, the hosts have talked about the notion of social class in Spain. Apparently, folks there even avoid talking about what they do for work because that has the potential to make others feel uncomfortable.

On the long drive home from McMinnville, I spent a lot of time thinking about Hannah’s question. Is discomfort the actual reason we don’t talk about money in our society? Do we keep these facts private out of fear of judgment? I’m not sure. I don’t have any hard facts to back up my beliefs. Maybe there are other reasons.

What do you think? Why don’t people talk about money? Is it just to avoid discomfort? Or are there more practical reasons to avoid these sorts of discussions? And, more to the point, in your own life, with whom do you have money discussions? What sorts of things do you talk about? What sorts of implicit (or explicit) boundaries do you set?

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For me, it’s a simple question of privacy. I regard my salary and my net worth as private information, and I refrain from talking about it not because it makes me uncomfortable, but because it’s none of most people’s business. My partner? It’s her business to know both. My boss? It’s his business to know my salary, but not my bank account. A random child in a classroom? Not her business at all.

I don’t buy that, Russ. There are plenty of other things that are also “none of your business” that you would talk about openly. What’s your wife’s name? Do you have any kids? What do you do for fun? What’s your favorite movie? Were you ever in Boy Scouts as a kid? What kind of car do you drive? All none of my business, but if we met in person, I bet you’d answer all of those questions without a second thought.

I think there’s something else at play here, and JD’s on the right track.

You’ve only taken one part of my argument. I said it’s something I regard as private *and* none of anyone’s business. The type of car I drive might not be your business, but it’s also not private, so I don’t mind telling you. If I met you randomly on the street and you asked me where I was going to be at 6pm tomorrow or what my favourite sexual position is, I wouldn’t tell you that either.

So, let’s ask the followup question, which is the one I think J.D. is trying to get at: why is how much money you have “private?” What is it about our salaries that make them our business and no one else’s?

Russ, I think it all boils down to our relationship with the person asking us about our finances. My wife knows everything about our finances, for example. But, I won’t share anything about my finances with the person I hire to change the oil in my car. By extension, I don’t feel the need to publish my net worth on my blog like some folks do.

The only people we discuss money with is our financial advisor, each other, and our very close friends who have more money then we do. We do not discuss our money with family memebers, or any other frieds because we do not want to be judged on how much money we do or do not have, but rather, on how we interact with other people. Once money enters the subject it seems to change the approach people have toward you.

Back in Soviet Union people had no problems talking about money. May be because they had evenly little among them:) The Euro friends I have here also tend to keep with the same trend, easily answering what they are making and what their bills are in general and so forth. May be the discrepancy in US (and these days in other places as well) is such that people with little money are ashamed and want to pretend they have more, and people with a lot are afraid of jealousy and keep their mouth shut too. So, personally, I stick to it since it’s the way it is here: I talk money details with my Euro friends and not talk with Americans (even very close ones, although I had offered to a number of them to help sort things out and give examples).

Personally? I don’t because I make substantially less than my friends (by choice, I might add), and I have substantially more in student loans (luck of birth: all of my friends’ parents paid for school), so my budget is much tighter. My friends are busy saving for houses and I’m busy establishing an emergency fund and paying down loans.

I don’t want anyone to look down upon that or feel as though they have to alter their spending habits for me or worse, not alter their habits and then pay for me! This happens a lot, and while I appreciate it, I feel like I have a lot of ground to cover when I get to a point where I have that kind of money to play with.

If someone doesn’t make much money, then others might judge that person as not being very smart or being unskilled in life. If they make too much money, they don’t want others to think they are 1%ers or hear about how nice it must be to make as much money as they do. Therefore, some people are not inclined to speak about money as it can be used as a tool to judge against.

I agree. Back in our twenties my husband wanted to keep up with the Joneses and make it look like we were wealthy. Only we were in debt up to our eyeballs trying to keep up the status. He didn’t want to be judged negatively. He wanted the illusion.

It didn’t matter to me because I never felt that money made you better than anyone else. I have no problem talking about money or the lack of money because I don’t feel bad. We made our choices and some may have been bad, but it isn’t anyone’s fault but our own.

It wasn’t until he hit 40, did he realize how stupid he was. Being happy with yourself, your family and being content was ok. Retirement became more important. He finally started spending less and not rushing out to get the newest hitech items, and thinking more about what his future rather than his present.

Thank goodness he finally realized what I already knew.

But Americans especially young Americans aren’t taught enough about credit, saving, investing, etc. This should be a required course in high school!

I feel like this is true, from my own experience. Just look at our pop culture icons, everything the media throws at us, and our cosumerism-based society: to matter, to be interesting, to be desirable, we must be rich.

Not saying everyone is like that, or even the majority of people that I know, but that is the message that we are subtly (and not-so-subtly) being bombarded by mass media.

If some people do equate money with worth of person, that doesn’t mean that all people do it. And it surely doesn’t mean that it shoulde be taken as truth, because it’s not the truth and it’s far from it! Limiting yourself to belief that amount of money you make equates your self-worth and your worth as a person is profoundly burdening. What happens when you lose your money, your job, your possessions, are you less of a person then?

Personally I’m always reminded of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and all the rules employers used to have to keep employees from discussing salary. If a subset of workers (say women) know they’re underpaid, they’ll unionize and demand higher wages.

My Employer publishes ranges based on job title and level, which I assumes makes things much more comparable between employees, though the do have enough weasel words in there to say there are reasons it’s ok to be paid beneath your range (lack of experience, subpar performance, etc.)

What’s interesting to me is how much people protect salary and income, but how freely they discuss spending. I think I know what all of my lunch colleagues spend on rent and mortgage, groceries, car payments, utilities, etc. Whenever tax season comes around, everyone becomes real cautious describing *that* situation, though.

I’m a teacher, so my salary is common knowledge. There is even a website that tells what every government employee in Utah makes (www.Utahsright.com). The problem is, they’ve started adding in the amount our employer pays in benefits (health insurance, pension, etc.), so the number looks WAY bigger than any W-2 I’ve ever received.

that seems sleazy. I mean – I think it would be useful (in general) for employers to share that info with their employees, but since they don’t, and it’s not clear, it makes it seem like they’re paying teachers a lot… not cool.

I’m in the same situation as Tonya. If someone looks up my state “salary” they see a number far larger than what I actually receive because it includes medical, dental, long-term disability, and life insurance premiums paid by my employer. I’m not saying these benefits are not economic – they certainly are – but the aggregate number skews people’s ideas of what people in public employment are paid.

That perception is particularly bothersome because I know what a cash patient pays for medical and dental care (I was one for years). I’ve never incurred anything close to the $1000+/month that’s paid in my name by my employer for those benefits.

oh, yes, that’s definitely a problem here. Teachers in our town just got a 5% “raise.” What they don’t mention in the newspaper article is that something like 4.5% of that “raise” is an increase in health care costs being covered by the district. The remaining .5% is a portion of the cost of living increase promised in the contracts.

Folks in our town are livid about this, and they still stayed mad after seeing the explanation above because they think teachers should be having their wages cut.

i actually think benefits should be included when calculating salaries. if my employer doesn’t contribute to my healthy insurance premiums or my retirement plan, then i’m paying for it with money from my salary. just because you don’t see it on your paycheck doesn’t mean you didn’t receive the benefit. in fact, some people recommend using the total salary including benefits, when negotiating salaries with a potential employer.

for example, the company i work for contributes only a small amount to health insurance premiums. it is far below the standard in our industry. many people who thought they were getting an increase in income by quitting their job and moving our company, actually had a decrease because they had to pay much more for health insurance.

i actually think it’s sleazy not to include benefits when reporting income. it makes some people look much poorer than they really are. it’s just proper accounting.

I think it’s because once people know exactly what you’re working with, they can make more judgments about what you’ve bought and how much you’ve saved.

I admit I do this when I wonder why low income people buy enormous TV’s, and why supposed wealthy people don’t give more to charity. If I knew the exact amounts, I’m sure I’d be even more critical. I’m not proud of that, but it is nonetheless true.

Of course, more transparency might lead to better empathy too. I was wondering why friends lived in a dinky rental until I figured out they’d paid serious cash for fertility treatments. Their twins seem to be worth every penny!

Agreed. When you have a friend asking people “please buy my old 36″ HDTV, my 2-yr old son and I can’t afford rent this month!”, but then a short time later is sharing pictures with “look at us enjoying our tax refund, a 55″ HDTV!”, it’s hard to appreciate their difficulties.

Sarah, your comment resonates the most with me of those I’ve read so far. I know it has to do with judgment for me, but not judgment about someone’s worth as a person. I’m a no frills person. I’m content with basics. When I found out a friend was living basically rent free in her sister’s large house I was judgmental of her choices. For example, they live paycheck to paycheck. She buys designer clothes. They save nothing for retirement. She’d have a bank account fund where she set aside money for their self-employment taxes but if an “emergency” came up they’d spend from that account because they didn’t have an emergency account. I WISH I DIDN’T KNOW ANY OF IT. I THINK SHE’S STUPID BECAUSE SHE MAKES STUPID MONEY CHOICES, IN MY OPINION! This may have lead to me not being her friend anymore. Kind of like yesterday’s post she’s too interested in what people think of her and is living with props. I told her as much because I’m real. She knows I live frugally and so she’d share frugality tips with me then come to find out she’s not frugal. Basically she was lying with me the opposite of props. She was trying to keep up with the Joneses and at the same time keep me happy with what she knew my values were. I just feel sad for her because like Tina’s husband above she just hasn’t figured out who she is yet. She’s living for others, not her own life.

At the same time I don’t tell anyone how much is in our emergency fund. I think most of my friends are like her, they’d judge me for not spending out of my emergency fund to help someone. IMO that money is ONLY for true emergencies. I don’t even spend out of it for car repairs. I might help my family if they had a true emergency. But really, they should have their own emergency fund set up IMO. They make more than double what we make yet have zero in the bank.

I totally agree. I think a lot of judging goes on related to salary. I’ve been around long enough to know it’s all relative. When my ex finally graduated from law school and was making $120k a year, most people would’ve thought we were in great shape. But with $100k in student loans and two kids (and needing to buy a house and a car to replace our old clunker), we were barely making ends meet.

Yes, there’s a lot of judging about salary – me included. I doubt it helps, but I judge myself too. I rarely share financial information with anyone, partly because I’m embarrassed because I think we should be in better shape than we are (dang it’s a slow process to fix this debt stuff). But – my older sister has multiple millions in real-estate and I likely can’t even imagine what their actual earnings are, but she complains about lack of money frequently. Drives me nuts.

I’ve never had a problem talking about money, but over the years I’ve had to realize that people get uncomfortable when you talk about concrete numbers. Sure, I don’t tell people our net worth or what my husband makes every year, but I don’t understand why I can’t mention the exact specifics about our addition project to friends and family. But oftentimes I hold back, because I can tell it makes them uncomfortable.

I don’t know ultimately why this is. It could be a combination of things. Perhaps the reason you state is in play – i.e. people don’t want to make anyone else feel bad. But I find this peculiar in our oversharing culture. We talk about everything else – why not money?

I’m not sure certain places where money is NEVER discussed is something we should emulate. If you’re talking about Latin America where the gap between rich and poor is even more stark, perhaps they don’t need to talk about money, because it is entirely obvious who the haves and have nots are.

I have lived in Europe on several occasions, but I can’t really recall there. I do know that in Germany ostentatious wealth was somewhat frowned upon, at least in the circles I inhabited. And that if you were rich, you probably wouldn’t want to talk about it.

I have always been open about how much our house cost, largely because it is public record anyway. But I do recall when a friend bought a condo in a new city, I asked her in a round about way how much she paid, and she was clearly uncomfortable about it. I then felt terrible for asking and wished I could have taken it back. I was just genuinely interested in real estate in that city, but I guess I could have saved us all the discomfort and looked online.

One more thing – the fear of talking about salaries is largely what allows companies to pay their workers vastly different amounts for the same work. My sister in law accidentally received an e-mail that was about employing another person to do exactly what she was doing. The starting salary was TWICE what she made. Needless to say, this was a wake up call.

I wish that people would be more willing to discuss actual cost of home projects. I’m still a fairly new homeowner, so when I look at the list of things I need/want to do in my house I have a hard time knowing the order of magnitude of the cost. Getting quotes from companies is a painstakingly long process – sometimes I just want to know whether getting new windows is going to be cheaper or more expensive than getting a new water heater. That sounds silly now that I’ve changed my water heater ($3-500) and gotten an estimate for the cost of new windows ($4-5000), but with major house projects I have no idea whether I’m being totally ripped off or if it’s just expensive to own a house (or both).

Growing up, we were taught, explicitly, that it is impolite to talk about money outside the family. Even within the family, kids didn’t need to know about family finances. It was “grown-up stuff,” and the kids didn’t have a role in managing the family finances. We were given an allowance and, for a short time, we were paid for grades. Horrible idea, BTW.

In fact, we were taught not to talk about anything that could even infer how much money a person had. Growing up in rural Wyoming, that included talking about how many head of cattle someone had. It was like talking about how much money was in the bank.

I certainly wouldn’t discuss my financial circumstances with someone other than a trusted advisor or my partner. I might talk about my approaches to financial management. One thing that drives me absolutely crazy is when people ask how much something cost. It feels like a boundary violation.

It’s jealousy. People don’t like to see others doing better than themselves. If you are a multimillionaire, it’s not comfortable to advertise it to friends and families who are not doing well. Some of them will get jealous and the friendship will sour. That’s life.

Agreed – I had a couple of close buddies who I am not really friends with anymore who took issues with me and I think it was because of “my love for money”. Really? Is it my fault I’m on year 10 of this journey and you’re constantly on day 1? The undisciplined and shortsighted folks generally dislike any form of success in others.

John in Denver, I don’t totally agree with you. Yet I agree with Joe so…?!

I am lower middle class, frugal but have savings. I judge negatively an ex-friend that was bad with money. She didn’t have more, I just didn’t like how she spent it. Knowing too much about her finances made me feel like I was better than her because I would have spent the money for something “good” like retirement or paying off my mortgage. So, I was jealous of the money but not the “crap” she bought with it. ;) Hope that makes sense!

“…contstantly on Day 1…” I really like your wording there. All of us can find ourselves on Day 1 “again” through emergency, cancer, etc. On Day 1 “again” and “again” and “still” means something is wrong.

I have to disagree with you both and think you’re falling into the trap that a lot of people do: that is, because others don’t have money means that they must not be smart, work hard, or any number of other characteristics that you attribute to wealth. Simply put: BS. A lot of people with limited finances DO work hard, and ARE smart and save where they can. Some of wealth is luck and implying that people who don’t have wealth are lazy or bad planners is simplifying the equation.

That being said, those who have wealth SHOULD enjoy it and SHOULD spend it how they see fit. If your friends are leaving because of your money, perhaps its not your money, but your attitude about your money, or perhaps they weren’t your friends in the first place.

As I stated earlier, I make far less than many of my friends by choice. I know that some of them could pay off my student debt with their savings from 5 years of work savings. Though I save as much as possible, I am nowhere near that and my budget it tight. I still love my friends and see them often. But my money is none of their business just as theirs is really none of mine. It has nothing to do with my “jealousy” of their finances.

Perhaps I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying, but I feel like Maria (comment 249, I think) nailed it – ANYONE can find themselves in a bad financial situation through no fault of their own, but when someone is *constantly* unable to deal with the regular, everyday issues that life throws you (hello – you’re car WILL need repairs at some point, the rent/mortage is due every month, taxes, insurance, etc. should not be a surprise to anyone), unless there is something very serious and totally beyong their control (something on the order of a serious ongoing illness, etc), then, yes, it is because that person makes poor choices. Both my brother and BIL are this type. Yes, they have both had personal setbacks, and in those instances, it seems perfectly normal that they struggle financially and we as family step in and help. But when you refuse to stick with any job that actually PAYS, mooch off your parents for months/years on end and have no rent payment, can buy all the latest electronic gizmos for your “buisiness” that has never made any money, that is not an issue of life just dealing you a raw deal or having less money because of the school and profession you chose. That is simply being irresponsible and expecting others to carry you through life. To the point that when my husband and I purchased our first rental house, his parents refused to tell his brother and asked us not to mention it to him, because “it might make him feel bad.”

I will have to agree with you about my changing attitude about money and how it can be a negative for long friendships (15 years and I am 30 yrs. old). My attitude has changed towards personal finance in that I am more comfortable in my resolve about money. We are all process oriented and if we continue to placate our friends or ourselves about negative behaviors (personal finance/ overeating/too much TV)we never evolve positively.

Honestly, when I know how much someone makes, I judge them. I do. I think about that salary and what I see them spending on and how I would do it differently, etc. So I can see why people don’t like to tell! If I make judgements, I think probably most people do!

What Isela says here and your spanish teacher said is crazy to me! I thought AMericans were weird talking about money, but actually, it sounds like we’re pretty open and free about it!

If I hear someone makes $X and buy a new iPhone or brand-new car, I always think “And how can they afford it?” I try not to judge people for how they spend their money (maybe they got an inheritance?), but it’s hard to keep my mouth shut when I know someone makes very little but can seem to afford new toys at every turn.

Yes, definitely, and it goes the other way too (people who make a lot getting judged for *not* buying toys, etc).

I heard it from my mom all growing up. If she knew somebody had and/or made a lot of money, then any time they opted not to pay for something (dinner out, vacation, school sports trip, anything!) she would go on and on behind their back about how stingy they were.

I now make a very decent salary, but don’t want to tell anybody about it. I choose to put my money into debt repayment and savings instead of buying gifts for my family or treating everyone to dinner out all the time.

I fear that if my family knew how much money I made, they would think I was a stingy person, or they would expect me to always pick up the tab for things I don’t even care to purchase.

I remember reading about the issues that arose when David Beckham joined the LA Galaxy. He was making $2-3 million a year (not counting endorsements) and some of his teammates were making league minimum (less than $30k at the time). Because the numbers were published, everyone knew the discrepancy, even though they were basically doing the same job.

David didn’t realize the differences and that, culturally, he needed to do things like pick up the tab for a team dinner every now and then to keep things on an even keel.

When I was in grad school, all of us had the exact same stipends. I definitely wondered how my friends afforded their bar tabs (more substantial than mine by far). Same with vacations. I was jealous at first. I figure, tho, that I can see their spending but their bank account balance. I saved lots of money and was able to do exactly what I wanted (despite low pay) upon graduating. Not all of my classmates had that luxury.

You both touch on this interesting idea of spending other people’s money for them.

*Why* does Beckham have to pay for team dinners? Should he seriously feel bad that he earns significantly more than his team mates? He is *actually* of considerably more value to the club than any other guy. I live in Australia, and had never heard of that soccer club. Many people around the world could name the club David plays for, but could not name a single other player or any other soccer club in the US. That branding and marketing is worth it.

The same on Zio’s mother being angry when others decided not to spend money on certain things. This sort of thing infuriates me. Who is anybody to decide how another spends their income?

I discuss money in the abstract a lot, but not specifics. In other words, its one thing to say I am paying down debt, and something completely different to discuss exact balances, interest rates, and minimum payments. Also, and I suspect I am not alone, those who think you make more than they do (or think you have liquid assets “just laying around”) somehow want you to give your money to them! Once I made vocal the goal I have to be be completely debt free including the house by age 55, others immediately started eyeing me differently. They would put themselves down and talk about how “not everyone can do what you can do” and some started expecting me to pay for everything in social settings.

That’s grief I don’t need, so my wife and I don’t say anything anymore about any of it. In fact, we now go out of our way to talk about money problems and complain about how hard times are (economy, layoffs, unexpected car repair expenses, etc.) I can’t even talk about vacation plans.

Also, when I do talk about money in the abstract, I have learned to always couch the discussion in terms such as “I was reading a blog on the internet the other day and they were talking about X.” That way I can achieve a degree of separation.

Because everyone has their own money problems and challenges, which tend to come up when talking about money, and it’s sometimes very uncomfortable to realize how different those are no matter which side you’re on. For instance, I worry that I don’t make enough to save/donate 20% of my income, and I wish I could go on a bit vacation…but I get very frustrated talking to friends who think what I make is not even enough to live on, and I feel ashamed for wanting more next to my friend whose unemployed partner is applying for food stamps because she makes too little to support them both. And we live in a city with a 13.5% unemployment rate, so I don’t want to judge anyone for not earning enough money.

In my first job out of college a coworker who didn’t like me found out that I earned fifty cents more per hour than she did. She was very angry, and gossipped about it for weeks with other coworkers. Not a pleasant experience.

I can really identify with that! In my early 20’s, I went to work with a woman I thought was a good friend. She asked me about my starting salary, so I told her, the “close friend.” She began making snarky comments in response to anything I said. After a few weeks, some of our co-workers tipped me off to her back-stabbing and complaining about me to the boss, trying to get me fired! Needless to say, that ended our friendship.
A few months later, she moved on to another job and I learned a valuable lesson. Don’t discuss how much you make with anyone but a spouse or SO.

“Economists love to talk about transparency. According to theory, if people have more information, then they can make better decisions. That makes for a healthier, more efficient economy. Why should pay be an exception to this rule?”

Economists are also acutely aware of what all the other economists are making. So we do put our money talk where our mouths are. That’s why I know that if I went on the job market (currently the only way for me to get a raise), my 9 month salary would go up at least 20K.

My point is not to trash economists but that keeping your pay secret dos not make sense. When everyone knows what the wage playing field looks like educated decisions can be made(am I getting paid enough) and people can work together to raise the wages for professions that are underpaid(should I look for a new job or career).

My point is not to trash economists but that keeping your pay secret dos not make sense. When everyone knows what the wage playing field looks like educated decisions can be made(am I getting paid enough) and people can work together to raise the wages for professions that are underpaid(should I look for a new job or career).

My point is that economists *don’t* keep their pay a secret. I know what most people that I know in my profession make, and people in my field ask and answer and gossip (especially when people move jobs). We also have information on average starting salaries for econ PhDs by profession widely available and updated every year in time for the next year’s job market (112K this year on average, if you’re interested).

We’ve had the highest wage growth of any social science, even during the recession. That may be related. (Though those of us stuck at state schools without raises are feeling the sting of salary compression.)

Ironically, I don’t think we have the slightest illusion that our wage equals our marginal product. But we do use that information to our advantage.

It shouldn’t be, but I know many employers encourage or demand it. One software firm that I worked at had a clause on our pay raises that said to effect that by signing the form we agreed not to discuss our salary with anyone inside or outside of the firm. And you had to sign the form in order to get your pay raise. If everybody knows what everybody else is getting paid, they can negotiate, and that is the last thing employers want, it seems.

I freely talk about how much money I (don’t) have. I’m 27 and my social group may be a bit different than most: I grew up in gifted school programs where we were always with the same kids for at least half the school day for 9 years. So we are a relatively large very close group. I think everyone has a pretty good idea of my finances ($27k salary, $62k student loan debt, spending all my money on student loans and healthcare). I publicly celebrate debt milestones like when I got below six figures, when I got below the amount I actually borrowed, and when I had paid off one entire debt. It might be kind of terrible, but I don’t care if people feel guilty for making more than me because I’m still worse off than they are (I kind of like seeing people suffer in little ways because I’ve suffered in such big ways, it has made me kind of bitter and vindictive), and I definitely don’t care if they judge me because I know that I’ve always done the best I could.

My friends are less open about their finances. I’m curious, but I don’t ask because I know it would make me feel bad. I know they all make a lot lot more than me and that I am terribly underpaid. My relative poverty doesn’t shame me, but it is depressing. I didn’t have any help from my parents to pay for college (most of my friends have little or no school debt), my parents even actively disadvantaged me with terrible advice (only take out private loans, don’t worry about the cost), and my depression has had a significant impact on my finances (school took longer, I couldn’t work or do internships, I have a lot of medical bills, I can’t take a job that doesn’t offer insurance, I’m not willing to move away for better prospects because it took me so long to find decent doctors). Knowing how much my friends make would just add another layer of devastation; I know they make more, but I don’t think I could handle knowing specific numbers without creating imaginary budgets for myself based on their income. It would take a relatively very small boost in income to change my life dramatically and I know all my friends make more than that threshold.

I think because it’s quite a median, it makes it easier, as do lower salaries. Try ask folks above $100k. I command the dude who wrote http://nomoreharvarddebt.com/ blog and disclosed his income and debts and bills and assets. But did you see how many haters he got to comment on all those media articles? OMG, he makes 3-figure, what means what, close to a million? The fact that “3-figures” also means $101k, and that’s before tax, doesn’t come to a conversation for some reason.

A few years ago my mother asked me what I made and I told her. She was aghast. And then she let me pay for every holiday meal, ordinary dinner, mutual gifts, everything, for close to two years. Granted, I could afford it, but I felt like I was being punished for being honest. Things have shifted since then and I don’t know why, but I probably won’t ever be so honest with her again.

lol! i was honest with my mom about how much i made, and she bought me dinner and some new clothes (and some new shoes). i protested weakly but i needed a meal and some new clothes and shoes so there you go.
i asked if i could pay her back, she said nah- my mother bought me stuff when i was young and newlywed. if you have kids, just buy them stuff when they’re young and broke.
oh- ~24K, NYC

See, I have no problem sharing this information, but I’m always afraid that if I put it online someone from my work will see it and that will in some way lead to me being yelled at. Employers discourage people from sharing this info, presumably because when someone finds out he’s making less than a coworker, he’s likely to be either resentful, which may cause his work quality to suffer, or ask for a raise, which costs the employer money. It’s a lose-lose situation for the employer. This probably means it’d be a benefit to employees, because more of them would ask for, and at least sometimes receive, raises.

But I make *about* $150k/year (just enough vagueness so co-workers in the same general range as me can’t tell if I make more or less than them), plus company stock. This is in Silicon Valley, CA.

You can post your salary and your company information on websites like glassdoor.com. I recently used that site and a couple of others to research salaries for my job, in my city. I posted mine there, too, because it makes the tool more useful. It’s all anonymous.

None of us have included the $$ earned from interest on savings, dividends for stocks or capital gains. That’s how the truly rich make their money, and it’s hard to estimate that on the spot.

My salary is somewhere around $70K. I honestly don’t know–I have a lot taken out pretax for childcare and health costs, so even multiplying my gross by 12 doesn’t really give it to me. My husband makes about the same, though we don’t have the same things taken out of his salary. We live in Indiana, our house is paid off, no debt of any kind.

I just realised how i immediately wanted to justify my low wage and explain that i’m working as an apprentice, but why did i want to do that? To not be judged i suppose… I should just be able to put that, but the risk of somebody looking at my wage and thinking ‘Oh poor you, that’s so little for a full time job’ is one i’m not willing to take.

And I have known the eyes already, known them allâ€”
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

$105k plus a bonus of around $10k. I’m in Toronto, and my wife also makes about $90k including commissions. We also usually make about $1,000 or so per month in a little weekend/evenings business (charging 80 bucks an hour). We’re 35 – age is relevant to all this info, I think.

$26k as a part-time time teacher (would be 50% more if I were full-time) plus $27k in child support (ex makes solid 6 figures) for two kids, so $53k…which sounds like a lot but doesn’t seem to be stretching very far.

This was quite a psychological exercise for me, because I had a mix of emotions about posting the number. We were poor for a long time and worked damn hard to get where we are, so I’m proud of what we make, but embarrassed that other people reading this might think I’m bragging, and sensitive that other people reading this might make a lot less than that, and on and on. So…good question!

I never judge people for how much or little money they make, but I judge the hell out of them for how they spend it. I assume a lot of people are like that, even if they don’t admit it. (Or maybe it’s just me, forever alone.) That’s probably why people don’t want to talk about it.

Currently my husband makes $112,320 in middle TN. Last year we lived in SC and he made $45,000. He got this job in TN (doing the same kind of computer programming), making $93,000. After a few months here, he negotiated a raise to $112,320. He’s been talking with recruiters for positions all over the country, and some of the rates he’s seeing are anywhere from $50-$80 an hour for this work, both permanent and contract.

I think we’re reluctant to talk about this with people we know because our families and friends are not at all wealthy. My sister makes about $22,000 a year working in a doctor’s office and my husband just negotiated a raise for almost that much, at a job that already pays almost 5 times what she makes. :/ My husband’s father is also in the IT field, and while we don’t know his exact salary, we’re pretty sure it’s at least half or below half of my husband’s. For us it’s kind of survivor’s guilt. When we almost passed out ourselves when we saw these big numbers, what can we expect our family and friends to think?

And to make us feel even more guilty, my husband loves his job and his coworkers and works from home, while our family and friends hate their jobs and the people they work with and they don’t get to work from home, having to commute about an hour a day in some cases. We are extremely lucky.

Currently, my combined household income is negative. My husband’s yearly medical school loans are more than my annual salary. Had the college and career advisers at my nationally ranked university been halfway decent at their jobs our situation could be much different. As it is, I will have to wait until my husband is finished with medical school/residency and making enough money to pay for my tuition out of pocket (while also paying back his loans) to go back to school to make a much desired career change.

You can’t have negative income, your income is what it is as received compensation. You can have have a negative net worth or you debts can exceed your income causing a negative net income. College career advisors are as good as guidance counselors who told me my career was to be a farmer, in the philadelphia suburbs.

I’m sorry. My household NET income is negative. I’m not bitter about it. My husband was the one that was hesitant about becoming a doctor because of the amount of debt he would need to take on to accomplish his goal. It has now become OUR goal and we joke about living like poor medical students (which we really do) and we are working to pay off a decent chunk of consumer debt before he graduates. We actively applied for scholarships for 2.5 years but they are far in few between while you are in medical school. Usually, you can secure yourself a signing bonus that will help pay off a decent chunk of the loans. We also have a “45 year” plan with the goal of paying off the $250k loans + approximately $100k accrued in interest while he is a resident within 2 to 3 years of his becoming an established doctor, purchasing a house with a price tag well below what we would qualify for (hopefully in cash, at least 50%) and purchasing rental properties for additional income. It’s not all sunshine and roses but we’re both excited about where it will lead.

Make around 100K as consultant (Phoenix, AZ), husband around the same with 6-12% bonus. So total household around 200K. I am 36 and husband 37. But the previous 5 years i have taken lots of breaks (3-4 months in between) between jobs, to be at home with our kid. But since i am an IT engineer, whenever i come back to work, the pay rate has been good.

32 YO. Can’t say what I do because there are many days when I don’t know what I do.

If I could do post-secondary school again, I’d get an engineering degree because I’d make 20% to 30% more by now. But I couldn’t make up my mind and switched majors 5 times as an undergrad. It’s amazing that I somehow found a company willing to hire me.

I work so hard folks, so, with pride: $30,000 in Minnesota, Single Parent (the whole way) with child in private college, homeowner – only owe $20,000 more, no other debt. Contribute small but steady in 401k and HSA accounts. 20% of income goes to gas to get to work. Some days I feel so overwhelmed and wonder how much longer I can keep up.

We rent a modest apartment and own our vehicles outright, but never spend any money outside of traveling. We’re working on paying of what was nearly 6 figures of consumer debt she was carrying when we got together. I never discuss money because I know we make more than family members who are always flaunting what they have, and don’t want to cause any resentment. Her family already has a major problem with asking her for money and extravagant gifts, which we have really helped by pretending not to have the money. If they didn’t always expect her to pay their way, she never would have been in this debt in the first place. No more income discussions!

Great idea Mondo! It’s fascinating to see how varied our incomes are. I think that’s one of the things that makes the GRS community so great.

I was earning $50,500 in the Boston, MA area last year, but I am now out on disability. The insurance will pay $30,000 (without tax, thank goodness!) but if I am not able to work before the insurance runs out, social security will only pay $16,836 so I’ll have to move out of Boston. I say this hoping that more people will get disability insurance – it can be a lifesaver!

By the way, I’m in my mid-30s. And if I manage to get my health back, I’m redoubling my efforts to save for FI asap, just in case this happens again!

$150K as a marketing director in Boston, MA. Plus another $20K in bonus typically, and $30K in rental income, although half of that covers costs.

I’m a single mother, and for years I lived frugally in my very small condo, bought more than a decade ago in my very expensive city. I don’t think anyone, including most of my family, had any idea what I made. I recently moved to a bigger place in the same city and kept my condo as a rental, and I’ve seen eyes widen and the mental calculations taking place as people realize I’m more financially stable than they thought.

About 22K (this year). I’m an adjunct professor, so it fluctuates with enrollment. As a teacher, I’ve blogged specifics about the long dark of January. (Teachers get paid in December a few days before Christmas and then not again until the end of January. It’s kind of a disaster.)

I talk (and post) freely about my finances for a couple of reasons: 1) It helps my friends understand why I have to say “no” over and over again when they invite our family to do things that cost money. 2) I grew up absolutely without any money skills in a feast-and-famine cycle of moderate poverty and moderate wealth. I want my kids to have a more level life experience, but during periods of extreme economic hardship, that means that I get into more debt trying to keep things “normal.”

My kids still don’t have everything I want them to have, or even most of the things their friends have, and we sometimes spend a week eating rice and beans in order to afford the high-ticket items that I’m sure other people “judge” us for “wasting” our money on.

Overall though, I think it is better to share, to not expect anyone else to solve your money crises (even if they can or want to), and to do the emotional work of understanding that the choices you have made (bad and good) were made for reasons.

I’m a Black single mom attorney. My mom died in college. No financial assistance from parents. In fact, my parents left me with debt. I’m pretty frugal and live beneath my means. I’m nearly 40 and have just about paid off my student loans. I’m saving for retirement and for my kid’s college ed. We’ve at about $600K in our portfolios (earned by working, saving and investing).

I’m sharing this level of detail because I’m ever cognizant of how blessed I am, and how unique I am in my demographic. I don’t fit the stereotype of Black single moms and I feel a sense of responsibility comes with that. One such responsibility is to be honest about my salary with colleagues because I know that my company underplays others and I want to empower people to advocate for their market value.

I’m grateful for this forum and the candor of others sharing their salary info. I learn from the group. Best!

This isn’t with a “real” job; this is my graduate school stipend. I don’t know how I’d exist without my husband’s paycheck. I’m not putting his information up here since I haven’t talked to him about the post.

$6,000, part-time (all I could get), KY. Spouse, Mil. Disability, Mil. Retirement, Soc. Sec. altogether, $26,000, also KY. We are paying off debt, current on land contract mortgage, living more and more frugally. And STILL people expect us to pick up tabs because they are on assistance of one kind or another. Which we are not unless you count SS, which I don’t as my husband is 68 and paid into that account all his life. Military stuff, he damned well earned.

No boundaries here but generally only talk about it in real life with friends or family because that’s the only situation where it comes up. I like helping my friends get paid as much as they can (and most of my friends are in the accounting field so they aren’t missish about numbers either.)

I don’t think anyone judged Mother Theresa on her income level. And Obama makes about double what I do but I’m pretty sure he’s a little more valuable and far harder working.

I look at it without about as much emotion or judgment as I do calories. If you went on a weight loss forum and said “I don’t know why I’m not losing weight, what’s wrong with my plan?” and somebody asked you how many calories you ate and how much exercise you did and you said “I’d tell you but I’d have to kill you” – well, that doesn’t really make sense does it?

But you also wouldn’t be running around telling strangers about the intricacies of your Weight Watchers point system either.

Who knows? Maybe the kid wanted to know if you have the credentials to be worthy of listening to your advice? :-)

I try to talk openly about my finances with people I trust in my life, including friends. When I was in debt and ashamed of my financial status I was very private about my situation. I think that added to the problem and/or was a result. I didn’t know how much I was in debt and I assumed everyone was in just as much debt after college as I was and that they also weren’t paying attention.

Especially now, I like to say that I am choosing not to spend money on this or that because my savings goals are xxx. People can judge that if they want to, but at least I am clear and open with my friends about why I am turning down an invitation to do something or explaining my reasoning honestly.

I find it very interesting that people who are willing to openly discuss their love lives and even their sex lives are not willing to talk about their financial situations. I think it is often because they don’t know or are ashamed either of debt or wealth.

Last weekend when I was talking to friends about the cost/benefit analysis I make over things like organic foods v. non-organic foods they repeated that “they don’t care about money,” “that money is not important to them,” and that “they will pay whatever they need to for the best food for their family.” While I understand their argument and do not fault them for that, what I felt troubling was that they seemed to be judging me for even thinking of costs/money as if it were a dirty subject. Worse, I felt that they were implying that talking about money at all made me sound greedy.

I have worked as a Human Resource Manager, Director, V.P., etc. for many years so I have known the salaries and perks of my co-workers and bosses much of my working life.

There have been several comments about huge discrepancies in pay for people with the same duties. I have not seen that in any organization that I have worked for. I have seen differences in offers – say about 10% or less of pay – based on experience, education and what I judge to be the intangible preferences of the hiring manager. The biggest influencer is what the candidate earned in previous jobs. These preferences aren’t unlawful – just things like what companies the candidate worked for previously or what college or university they attended.

I have never seen a set of pay information that matched what I would assess as “fair”, but most of them are “somewhat fair”. Some organizations are pretty transparent about what any given job pays and some are not at all transparent.

As to discussing salary, even in non-union environments employees have protected rights under the National Labor Relations Act, to jointly discuss “terms and conditions of employment.” In the U.S., employers who ban discussing salaries and strictly enforce the policy with discipline are likely behaving in an unlawful manner. (There are some situations, such as where everyone has an individual employment contract, where such a ban can be enforced.)

Now that is interesting information. I’m pretty sure my employer has the policy that discussing salary with a coworker is grounds for termination. So no, I don’t discuss salary – at work or at play because it might get back…

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “nobody wants to be judged.” This goes both for people with a lot of money and those with very little.

If I make very little money, people will judge my spending choices, my lifestyle, my career decisions, and so on. They’ll think I shouldn’t be buying this thing because I don’t have the cash to spare. “Get a better job, do something to improve your situation.”

If I make a lot of money, the same is true, but in reverse. If I research products before I buy to get the best value, people will think it’s a waste of time because I have money to burn. “Why don’t you take a vacation, give more to charity, lend your friends a little?”

It’s also true that we don’t want to feel bad, and we don’t want to make OTHERS feel bad about their money situation. If I make more than my friends, I don’t want to point that out because they may resent me, or be jealous, or be embarrassed about their own situation.

Even with close friends, it’s a little uncomfortable. I do talk about personal finance at times with my family and friends, but we often shy away from specifics.

Here in the UK it is considered very rude to talk about money. However, I believe in other parts of Europe people are just very plain and factual about it. It’s one of those strange cultural anomalies I guess.

When I was growing up, my parents taught me it was impolite to ask people their salary or who they with vote for. This was private information.

I will discuss money with family and close friends, but usually do not give specifics. My husband and I are well off (due to both work and luck) and I don’t want to make anyone feel bad, nor do I was to give unwanted advice. We are going to have our first child soon, so I know how annoying it is to constantly be receive unwelcome advice about something so personal.

I think the biggest reason why people don’t talk about money is because they don’t want to be judged. I think another reason may be because certain people feel that they have inadequately handled their financial resources and feel guilty about that ~ I know that I DEFINITELY have and do. That makes me feel very uncomfortable, not just in talking about personal finance with other people but uncomfortable with MYSELF. It’s a constant reminder that I’ve been a careless idiot and thinking/talking about it makes me feel stupid. Another reason may be that it’s better to keep one’s assets to oneself for fear of being targeted for loans or for fear of being used by others.

I do not discuss my money problems with anyone other than the whole world via my anonymous blog LOL. I do not let anyone (not family, friends) directly know anything about my own personal financial assets. I haven’t even posted my true financial picture on my blog. Why? Because I sit in judgment of myself every single day over the way I have mismanaged my personal finances and my working career in general and I am still coming to terms with it myself. At some point, I will have to forgive myself but I’m not there yet.

Everyone who knows me knows that I will not discuss my ‘net worth’ or my financial plans. The only person with whom I talk personal finance and actual figures with is my spouse. As far as my kids go, I try to imbue our financial discussions with general details of my own personal financial missteps and hope that I can head some things off at the pass. I try to advise them the way I wish I had been advised at their age.

Americans DO talk about money in general – alot. We talk about money in terms of the things we bought (it was only X number of bucks, It was a steal!, I got it on sale), the things we want (ooooh – I like that model car – but it’s so expensive! That really costs THAT much? This is an investment to me – so it’s worth the price) and how it seems that the ‘right amount’ of money for us is just around the next corner (If I could just get that raise then I could do/get X,Y,Z).
What the culture doesn’t discuss is the specifics of money. I think the PF blogsphere is very much more open and able to talk specifically about money in terms of making it, growing it and prioritizing it, but the rest of the world seems to be stuck in money no man’s land: You can’t talk specifically about it as you could be making others feel bad. You talk about how much you make and you are bragging. You talk about how little you make and you’re whining. The moment you open your mouth with details you are putting yourself on the scrutiny block for judgement from others.
And perhaps, just perhaps, the PF blogsphere can get away with it’s honesty becuase it lets us talk specifically about our money situations without having to do so face to face. It takes courage to be open to a bunch of people you’ve never met (and perhaps never will….) it takes a completely new set of brass to be open with people that you know, whose reactions you DO really care about, imho.

Perhaps that’s a bit too pessimistic of a view, but that’s what my experience has shown me.

I do think it is related to not feeling bad, especially with the Great Recession. I recently got a job offer, but don’t mention the pay raise to friends because I know a few have gotten laid off. Furthermore, it’s this idea if you have the money, it feels uncomfortable (recently there was an article on MSNBC how many people deliberatly talk about a lesser amount of money they have than in reality). And if I don’t have the money, I feel uncomfortable, especially if they’re asking me to do something.

Yet, that said, money almost never came up in terms of personal wealth when I grew up and lived in New York. We knew, but it often felt that you’d be at a bar or diner and the guy to your left might be a lawyer and the guy on your right would be a store clerk. Now that I’ve moved down south to Texas, it’s different. Having lived in both Houston and Dallas, almost always within the first five minutes of conversation I get: “What do you do? Where do you live? What kind of car do you drive?” Not about wages directly, but they do pin point you on the Social Income scale as soon as they can.

It’s not just a matter of “Talking about Money” there are many levels of discussion around this topic. I’m always surprised by the reluctance that people have to say “I can’t afford it”. or “It doesn’t fit in my budget.” and move on with the conversation. If people could say this without fear of judgement it would solve so many problems – after all, it doesn’t need to imply anything about your financial status – simply that you don’t choose to spend money on the particular item under discussion.
Raised in the UK I have found the NE US is very similar in terms of discussing money(or not). We were taught that money, religion, and politics were not polite subjects for discussion in a social setting. Even within the family, exact numbers were never discussed – although my parents did give us an allowance and taught us about saving and budgeting.
Fast forward to today and living in the NE of the US – politics and religion seeem like fair game for conversation – at least among friends. Money seems to be the one consistent taboo subject everywhere. It’s OK to talk about what you want to buy – in fact if you are looking for deals on anything people love to share their sources – but exact figures on personal income and expenditure are closely held.
I agree with this in general – I don’t think it is anyone’s business what I make or how I choose to spend it – except for those who might be affected by the consequences. For this reason I share the information with my DH and (almost) adult children. I think it is particularly important for kids to know that if anything happens to you there are plans in place to take care of them. For example: You will live with Aunt E. and there is an insurance policy in place for $xxx that will give you enough to live on and pay your way through college.
I think that part of the problem around talking about money is that there are no guidelines on how to talk about it, to whom you should talk, and at what level of detail. There are enormous cultural and personal variables, so perhaps this group could weigh in with some criteria for sharing?
Here’s a start:
– Is the person with whom you are talking personally affected by your financial decisions?
– If so, which decisions?
– Do you share only the information that relates to those decisions or do you give the person the “complete picture”?
– What level of confidentiallity do you expect from that person once you share your information?
– Do you state this expectation explicitly?
In the end I believe it is a personal decision – or a series of personal decisions, but I also believe that working out your personal approach to what you share and with whom decreases your chances of being placed in an awkward situation.

Those are good questions. Since I’ve had my son and not worked a lot (didn’t work 2 years, did work 4 years, part time one year, now not working again) I have had a lot of people assume that I’ve always been dependent on my much-better-paid partner. Not so. I did just fine on my own, on variable wages, for a decade. I keep having to point this out because a lot of my friends ask for financial advice and then say there’s no way they can have any savings and I don’t understand because I have a working partner – but I did it, when I was on my own. I had a 401k account before I ever owned a car.

I never talked about money because it was something that was unknown and mysterious. Now, I talk about it whenever I get a chance…. looking for a house loan, talk to friends. investments, talk to friends. budgets, talk to friends.

I have a number of people that I discuss my finances with. My partner and I are completely open and have finance-related conversations a few times a week, and I also tell my dad everything. Like, how much credit card and student loan debt we have left to pay off, what our bills are, how much spending money we budget for… I like having a sounding board outside our relationship, and my dad is pretty financially savvy. Actually, I also know a lot about his finances – I’m listed on all of his accounts, in case anything happens to him, which means I can see all of his account balances. He is also really open about how his investments are doing, what he thinks his house is worth, and what his rough monthly costs are. I think because he is in such good financial shape, yet experienced what it’s like to start off as a struggling new family, I feel good talking to him because I can discuss my plans and get advice, while seeing a financial position I can aspire to.

We also discuss our finances with my partner’s parents, but not as in-depth. They know we’re trying to get out of debt and believe in frugality, and when we went through an extended period of unemployment, they knew we were having a hard time paying bills. But we don’t really talk specifics with them, and they don’t with us either. If I were to guess, I would say it’s because they’re not in a great financial spot – they’re getting older, owe a lot on their house and cars, and tend to spend a lot on all kinds of different things. I think they’re not as open with us, and as a result, we’re not as open with them. I think as well that it’s harder to talk about wanting to get out of credit card debt with people who don’t see a problem with putting lots on credit… I worry they’ll think we’re judging them (which I guess we kind of are…)

As for our friends, we don’t talk too much with them about our finances. I’m not even all that sure how much we make compared to our friends. I think we’re all relatively in the same income bracket. I do know though that generally most of our friends put a lot on credit cards (vacations, camera equipment, art) and again, it’s hard to talk about focusing on eliminating debt with people who have a different kind of lifestyle.

I was raised in a family where my parents never discussed money. In fact, my mother in particular was rabid about how private finances were. I had no idea of income, savings, retirement, anything.

Therefore I was shocked when it came out that my parents, in the last several years of their marriage, got into thousands of dollars of consumer debt. On top of that they had their underwater mortgage and parent plus loans. It was a nightmare that was aired for me during their divorce proceedings. I found out that one spouse was responsible for paying all the bills, and the other spouse hadn’t been involved at all. To top it off, they hadn’t communicated at all. Probably spent money to cover their unhappiness. They both had been raised to not talk about money because that was not “good manners.”

Their experiences have colored my monetary perception. My husband and I are VERY open with each other with all sources of income and bills, and have no debt other then his student loans. We have high savings goals, contribute automatically to them every month, and are very mindful in our spending. We talk about it with each other, and while our families don’t know exactly how much we make, they know we are relatively frugal and are not afraid to say “we can’t afford that.”
While I don’t plan on disclosing exact income to my children, I will actively tell them our plans and explain our reasons for our choices. Keeping them in the dark won’t help them at all.

Our current problem is, both our families know we have some substantial savings (had to get some help cashing in bond), and sometimes they seem to judge our choices. We say that we can’t afford something, and we mean “that doesn’t justify withdrawing money from savings” whereas they seem to think that if we have the money, and there’s something we want, we should spend it. Does anyone else have that problem?

Thank god not from our parents, but definitely from siblings (only when they want us to do things with/for them, of course) and also from strangers – I’m pretty strict about sugary foods and random plastic crap, but I’ve had to let up because I live in a working-class neighborhood and other moms would assume I meant I couldn’t afford an ice cream/light up necklace, then kindly buy one for my child. Now I budget a little bit for those kinds of purchases as a social thing for him.

When I was raising my children, we discussed the differences between needs and wants. We explained that we could afford what we needed, but we chose which wants we would have.

We used the phrase, we do not want to afford something. This meant that we were making the choice to not spend the money.

We have been very open about items that we do not buy for reasons other than the dollar cost and taken the flack. That has included toys that do not last, toys with batteries, or other items that we do not agree with. This has been a good lesson for my children that the dollars you spend on something is the only cost. There is time, disposal, etc.

Our son’s school had a mother’s day store (fundraiser). We talked to him about it, explained that his mother would prefer something he made such as a picture, but it was up to him if he wanted to spend some of his allowance at this store. He decided to pick some flowers and draw a picture for his mom.

I explained to his teacher why he wouldn’t be buying anything at the mother’s day store…but they decided to just give something to him. Maybe they felt bad for him, I dunno. On the one hand, I’m not too happy about this…as it’s kinda going against what we’re trying to teach him. On the other, we have to be realistic…the world we live in is materialistic, and we can’t pretend it’s not. What to do, what to do.

That’s a common problem, but I usually just say “that’s more than I am willing to spend” or something like that. Kind of like what Rosa said, I can afford a $5 ice cream cone and there are times where I might buy one, but in general I have better uses for my money, but at the same time I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t even have $5.

Yes – it’s hard with kids too – I say, we do not have money for that. And I’m pretty sure the kids think we are poor. And compared to my sisters, we really seem impoverished (which is ridiculous) – and compared to my in-laws, we are wealthy beyond imagining.
I try to tell the kids (where have you heard this?) that we can have some of the things we want, but not all the things we want. We bought x,y or z, so right now we don’t have money for a. We chose. And they have to save their money. When we take them shopping, they ask for this or that, and I ask, did you bring your money? Usually the answer is no, and they get nothing. If they did bring their money, they need to make sure they a) truly want that thing and not to save for something else, and b) have enough to pay including tax. I hope this teaches them things I did not learn until I was in my 30s.

I’ve done the same thing with my son, only I’ve worded it as, “We *could* buy this, but I’m choosing not to and here’s why” with a very brief explanation (e.g., we have ice cream in the freezer at home, you already have a toy car set, I only budgeted $X in that category for the month and I spent it already). He also has a modest allowance and has learned how to save up for pricey things he wants.

I have the same issue too, how to talk about affordability and money to kids. How do other parents do this talk? I have sort of tried to teach my son about value of money with $1 allowance a week (he is only 6) he had around 25$ saved up till 2 weeks back and spent 10$ on a toy he “really needed” , i clearly explained he has only 15$ left, he seemed fine with that. Should i have stopped him from buying? .
When we recently bought a TV, he told me “Take my money too” so that we can buy the TV. It was funny at that time, but on hindsight i feel i have given off the impression that we cannot afford it. (We make pretty decent money, about 200K household income).
How do other parents handle it? Is it Okay if kids do not know much about how much we have? I want him to have the hunger to succeed in life, and feel giving everything easily will take it away. And we definitely want to pay for his college and not allow him to go into debt for it.

DR, we’re doing pretty much the same thing, although when ours is 6 he’ll get a 20 cent raise to $1.20/week. His first purchase other than Christmas or Birthday gifts was a $15 lego game, which was a good use of his money. (At his age, I spent my entire allowance on candy every single week.)

He’s at a private school that has had money issues this past year and the teachers only make 23K/year. So at school he’s learning to be worried about money. He came home one day almost in tears because his textbook had been lost and it was *very expensive*. I explained that that’s why I make the big bucks, so that we can replace things like textbooks without worrying about them. (They found the textbook the next day– someone else had put it up on a high shelf.)

At the same time, we have long conversations at the grocery store about value. He knows how to look for what’s the cheapest per unit, just like my father taught me, but he gets an additional explanation when we don’t buy the cheapest item. Why do we like it better, how is it better quality? It’s important to know how to live frugally, because that gives options, but it’s also nice to be able to live an upper-middle-class lifestyle and to understand when trade-offs are worth it when you have enough money. That’s a good reason to make money, I think.

We’re also planning on paying his full college tuition and board.

I think it’ll be ok. We emphasize learning and education and understanding and hard work. He seems to have picked up on those lessons. It’s nice that he can focus on these more extrinsic kinds of things– what he wants to do to make his mark in the world, rather than omg I never want to have to worry about money. That’s a luxury but it seems to be one that hasn’t hurt most of the folks I rub shoulders with who are second or third or more generation upper-middle-class.

This drives my (very very frugal) partner nuts, having kiddo save up ALMOST enough for some large purchase he wants and then blow half of it on pokemon cards or whatever because he just can’t wait. But to me, that’s the point of the allowance – you can tell them all you want about what’s a want vs. need, but blowing their money and not having it later is a much more visceral lesson. And better to learn it now, when the stakes are $25, than when they’re 20 and it’s a $25,000 car instead.

DR – what Rosa said. IMHO, the major reason for giving an allowance to a young child is to let them learn how to handle money. I say “let them learn” and not “teach”, because making mistakes is how they learn. And I agree, better to screw up over a $20 purchase than a $20K purchase. DS has DEFINITELY learned a lot from his mistakes!

I think you did just right by letting your son purchase the toy – to him, he DID “need” it and he clearly saved for weeks. The rule in our household is that DS can use his allowance any way he wants for anything he wants provided it isn’t illegal, because he’ll learn to make good judgments through trial and error and building experience. After all, my employer doesn’t tell me how I should spend my paycheck. :)

This is an interesting question. I have two jobs that are the vast majority of my household income (like 80%) which are required to be disclosed on public reports. So I’m somewhat more willing to talk about what I make since it is public knowledge.

Yet I also choose to disclose my net worth on my blog under my real name. Nuts? Not really, it is just a number. It really doesn’t mean anything for the most part other than the meaning people decide to give the number.

I think we all are too fearful about hurting each other and being judged on our money choices. I just don’t care what other people think so I post it. If nothing else, it does make people more willing to talk about money with me since I’m open and honest about my money.

Where I come from, people do not talk about money for mainly two reasons:
1) others may think you are showing, ie if you make more than them;
2) belief that you may be bewitched if you are rich. I do not believe this, but this is so entrenched in our culture that people regularly name their businesses “I am just trying”. Apparently such a name implies that you are not wealthy but are just “trying” to make ends meet so you are not worth bewitching.

As a result of my upbringing and my personal belief that information about my financial life is private, I do not feel comfortable telling people about my finances except with two friends and my immediate family.

I didn’t mind when we didn’t make much, somehow it was pretty easy to tell people 20,000 a year. No guilt…. Look at us! Aren’t we thrifty, hardworking, and long-suffering!? (definitely not saying everyone thinks like this!)

But now that we make more (more than before and more than average) I don’t give out specifics. There’s the opposite thing as above — we’re out of the “hardworking middle-class club,” and there’s that nagging feeling that other people might think we think we’re better than them. I’m sure a lot of it’s in my head, but there’s no advantage to telling and lots of potential disadvantages.

There’s also the fact that we spend like we make less than we do, and there are some people in our lives who would pressure/expect us to spend more. No thank you.

â€œthat money is not important to them,â€
Not to hijack your post, but I found that interesting as I have a married couple who say similar things. They both wanted their doctorate in theology and one works to support the other, while having three kids. Now I am glad for them and they did say that those jobs are okay, because they enjoy them and the money’s not important. Yet one time, they accidently let slip they’re over 120,000 in debt. The mentality “money is not important to them” alarms me. It shouldn’t be the end all, but money is important to me. For many years, I had a job I absolutely hated. I mean, I’d stay up late because I knew when I went to sleep, I’d have to wake up and go to work again. Yet I did it because of the money and we needed to pay off our student loans. Also, for many years, I got offers of much better working conditions, but poor pay, and held out until I got something with good conditions and good pay. As I told my spouse, we can be miserable at work, but happy at home that we’re leaving our debt behind, our happy at work, but miserable at home, because we’re drowning in debt. Likewise, I’d love organic all the time, but we have to do a cost-benefit analysis.

So, money definitely does matter and I like how you contrasted yourself with the other individual in your post.

Well we’re all nosy, aren’t we. Just look at the comments on any moneyblog, we’re all experts in what other people should do with their money! If I knew my neighbour was bringing in big bucks I might wonder why she doesn’t repair her porch or something. I don’t want people having those casual presumptive conversations about me without having the total picture to understand my lifestyle. And the worst would be word leaking back to colleagues somehow, as there is so much that’s goes into salary negotiation other than pure role and level of experience.

My husband has no problem talking about money details, and neither do his South Asian/Asian friends. They’ll sit around talking about exactly how much the raise they got last week is, or sighing about how much (to the dollar) they owe on their car or credit card or whatever. They’ll chat away about Person X’s experience with bankruptcy, totally casually and non judgementally. These guys also cheerfully lend money – big amounts and small – to each other all the time for all sort of reasons, and send largish sums home to family with no real worries. It’s a very stress free and carefree attitude which seems a bit weird to this uptight European even having been part of their circle for going on 15 years.

I remember years ago, we were visiting my family back home and my husband casually mentioned my salary at a dinner table with twelve people ’round it. It was one of those funny moments where everyone sort of raised their eyebrows and stopped eating and looked at me, while he happily chewed on. I almost passed out!

I believe, like one commenter said, that for some people it equates to worth as a person.

Taken as a whole, we live in a world of 3 classes of people: Those with more than me, Those like me, Those with less than me. (the item of measurement can be any number of things including finances)

To be sociable, to fit in, one will tend to focus on the commonalities. If you introduce money, and you make more than me, the 3 class structure has just take effect and you are not like me anymore, you’re different, you can’t possibly understand.

I was raised that talking about money was impolite — I remember being chastised for this in high school, when a classmate gave a speech encouraging everyone to have all their clothes dry cleaned as she did, and I asked how much this cost her parents or ate into her allowance. The teacher said this was extremely rude, as it probably was, and made me apologize.

I’m in my mid-30s now, and I’ve noticed that friends and I talk more specifically about money than we used to do. We disclose mortgage payments, childcare costs, grocery costs, and sometimes salaries. It may be a function of the recession and a general interest in spending more carefully, or the fact that we’re at a similar stage of life. Regardless of the reason, this level of honesty is helpful.

I disagree with that teacher. How is it rude to ask how much dry cleaning costs? Especially after someone gives a speech on the topic.

If someones going to tell people to buy a product or service then they should be prepared to say how much it costs. The girl already advertized her family spends the money so its not like you’re prying into their personal life any more than she already announced to the whole class.

I work in a small office so several people already know how much everyone makes, but other people don’t know but have a sense for it. I think it would be a bit freeing to be more open about it rather than talk about it in small groups in a gossip-y manner. Then there would at least be a chance for people to realize that the money isn’t as important as the work someone does, and if some people think they deserve more then they can think about what they do that warrants a raise.

It’s not a competition with others, but with yourself, and when you aren’t distracted by thinking about what other people make and what you should be making, then you can be more productive.

This is so true. HR at my company gives ridiculous excuses for under compensating people. My friends and I are honest about compensation because if we’re not honest with each other, we won’t have the information to advocate for ourselves.

People get judged by the amount of money they earn and by their net worth. If your numbers are high, others will think highly of you but then many will think you should pay for everything. None of this is fair but it is what I have experienced. I LOVE to discuss money but am cautious about discussing specifics.

I’ve felt very lucky over the years; as friends and fellow graduate students graduated and got jobs in the “real” world they were very open about giving me a rough idea of what their starting salary was. Coming out of school, it’s hard to tell even what ballpark you’re in, and what sort of offer is reasonable or not.

Not talking about money may be a generational thing? I am 54 years old. While growing up, we were told by our parents that it was rude to ask a person’s income or talk about your family’s financial situation. I actually still feel this way; it is no one’s business what my and my husband’s salaries are. I don’t ask what my adult children make either.

I’m quite open about how much i earn. I think it’s maybe because i’m very happy where i am right now in terms of prospects and growth that i don’t mind disclosing how skint i am! I think that the saying the reason people are unwilling to disclose financial information about themselves is that other people will judge them is wrong. I personally think that if you’re completely happy with your finances as they are then you don’t care what anybody else thinks. To me, being unwilling to be honest about how much you earn or how much debt you have, represents self judgement more than anything, and maybe shows a negative relationship with money. I’m not a psychologist though, this is just my opinion.

As i mentioned before, i’m happy where i am. I have a low wage (Â£6240 pa) and at 20 years old, my fair share of debt (around Â£20,000), and despite all this i’m not ashamed in any way, because right now i’m taking action to rectify this. I’m working my first ‘proper’ full time job as a business and administration apprentice, making a meagre Â£520 a month, of which most goes to rent and paying off debts, but i know where i am now, i have room to grow and become the financially savvy adult that i never was before.

Most of my debt was incurred during a one year stint at university back in 2010. I’d done everything wrong; i signed up for a student loan, but ticked the wrong box so i got about 20% less than i was entitled to, i spent it all on food and booze, i never paid a penny of my halls fees, i maxed out my overdraft, i didn’t do any work and i basically had a VERY expensive 8 month holiday. Towards the end of my time there, i became very insecure about my finances. I was surviving on a tiny amount per week and still managing to buy alcohol, which i started consuming at an alarming rate. To be honest, looking back at my time there i was teetering on the edge of an addiction and it was all down to being out of control with my finances and putting undue stress on myself. Anyway, my point is i never shared this with anyone. I was 300 miles away from my parents so it was easy to lie to them and my friends never asked. Eventually i told my mum and it felt as if the skies had cleared and the sun began to shine again. From then i’ve been totally honest with her and anybody who asks.

My friends find it helpful because they use me as an example of why you should always be sensible with your money, and i’m happy to help. Saying that, i was ashamed of myself back then, but now i’m proud of myself and how i’ve managed to turn myself round and started to make a living instead of just scraping by.

I have been a Thrift Advocate for a long time. I am always surprised that people have a poor understanding of the elements of Thrift which include: saving a portion of income for an emergency fund, thinking before spending and considering needs prior to wants.

Those living in the USA just don’t seem to talk about money. I agree with some of the children. They may think the right response is “how I spend my money is my business, not yours.”

There are parents that never tell the children about banking, savings accounts, the risks of having credit cards and maxing them out. Why? They don’t talk money, even in the home.

I think those of you who have an interest in frugality should be proud of yourselves. Look what you have achieved. Why not spread the word, particularly to your friends and family. You may help someone who is unaware of strategies that could improve their situation.

$44,370, postdoc in San Francisco. My husband makes slightly less.
I talk about money a lot. With some people, coworkers who have been in the same situation, I can talk about my debts. Also with close friends. I also have a blog that chronicles my trying to get out of debt, and there I talk freely about what I earn and what I owe, but I don’t give out some details. I don’t mention my name or my husband’s name, I don’t give out specifics on which banks we use, etc.
I don’t talk about it with some people, who are better off than I am, because the debt brings shame. I know they don’t have debts, so I feel foolish that I have some (and I think I should feel foolish; I was). I also don’t talk about money much with my sister who is struggling to stay above poverty level. It depends on the person, I guess. Some people might be inspired or understand where I’m coming from; some people maybe could avoid my mistakes. I know some people would judge me. I’m working to care about that last part less.

The privacy aspect for us is key. I honestly don’t trust certain elements of my family if they find out the information as most of them are terrible with money and spend every last dollar on stuff they don’t need, yet are looking for handouts for things that should be priorities. But I do think as whole we do talk about money, we just don’t talk about how much we have. We discuss what we are buying and how we are spending it and often that we don’t have it to buy the things we want. We also see through forums such as this, how to save it or spend it more wisely, also how to use alternate forms of currency other than money. Most of the media idolizes the rich, famous, lucky and the stupid. The few who make a lot of money, some of which have no talent whatsoever. The coverage, advertising, etc., encourages conspicuous consumption regardless of the ability to actually afford stuff. I have watched people I know buy luxury clothing, cars, watches, etc., but then lose everything because they can’t make the rent/mortgage when laid off. The country as a whole isn’t much better if you look at our yearly deficit and national debt. What we need to encourage is more discussion around our emotional/psychological connections to stuff or experiences and the long term impact on our financial freedom. How to use money as a tool to free you from the yoke of debt slavery.

This is exactly what we’ve taught our kid, even though his idea about ‘a lot of money’ is about $12.

” if I have a lot of money and you donâ€™t, then talking about money might make you feel bad. Or if you have a lot of money and Iâ€™m poor, then talking about money would probably make me feel bad.â€

It doesn’t help in the long run, because kids come to our house and compare. But it’s a good rule of politeness.

Among friends and coworkers I think openness is important, though – because if you have no idea how much anyone else makes, how do you negotiate salary? Especially if you don’t come from a family in similar kinds of jobs? And it’s easy for friends to lead each other into spending traps by assuming everyone has the same level of income and can afford the same kinds of clothes/gifts/restaurants/vacations/wedding gifts.

I think you hit the nail on the head about people not talking about money because it is something emotional. I put this down with Race, Religion, Sex and Politics as generally private topics. You can talk about those topics, but you tend to do so with folks you are comfortable with and it may not be family. The true is that the more open you can be about money topics, the better for you in the long run. It is easier said than done because of the emotion.

I think you attitude about discussing money has a lot to do with how you were raised, and your circumstances. My husband and I speak freely with our close friends and family about money, because this is how we were both raised. But with his children, neither of us is as forth coming with information as we are even with our friends because the worry is that if his ex finds out how much we make as a ‘family’, she will want more child support. And before this turns into a debate about child support, he pays plenty (government regulated) and contributes to everything that is asked of us (school fees, sports, etc), it’s not that we don’t want to give the children good lives (which they have, they have everything they ever ask for at home from ipods to gaming systems in their bedrooms!), but we need to live too and with my student loans, we don’t have any wiggle room to pay more support.
But on another note, I see why people don’t like to discuss money sometimes. We get a lot of flack from both family and friends about our lack of disposible money, but they don’t realize the amount that we pay monthly in support, or the amount that I pay for loans. Everyone’s life is different and your annual salary isn’t always a good reflection of the amount of money you have.

I do talk about money with family and good friends–not usually with just anyone. But with people I’m close to, I don’t mind getting specific. I know what most of my friends make, what they pay in rent/mortgage, how much they are saving, etc. I find it interesting to compare where people are financially, if there are tips I could learn from, etc.

PF blogs are great, but can be tricky because posters are all over the country, and maybe even the world. Costs of living are so different from place to place that it can be hard to get a grasp on what people really have, and what constitutes a “good” salary.

I think people stopped talking about money because of their employers. If one person talked about how much money they were getting paid, and if that person were making more others would want to make the same. This would make the employers mad and maybe think twice about giving the talker a raise in the future. Therefore, it became part of your best interest to keep your money situation secret.

I know that I personally don’t like to talk about money because it feels like you can never discuss it without either feeling like a braggart or a dunce. You feel uncomfortable no matter which side of the coin you’re on.

As for not wanting to brag, I was thinking about JD’s comment about Peruvians not even talking about what they do for a living. I know that in Japan it is extremely rude to ask someone what they do. Instead, you ask what company they work for, because you can take pride in your company, even if you are sweeping the floors for them. And since humility is an important part of Japanese culture, you do not go around telling strangers what you do for a living. I’m curious to know if the Japanese talk more openly about money than we do. We might just have different ideas of what we should be humble about.

There is one fundamental reason why people don’t discuss their money in public– it’s because social life, as Erving Goffman put it so well, has a division between the stage and the backstage, even in today’s “tell-all” world of Facebook and Reality TV. Which is why your friends will post photos of their lastest trip to Tahiti but won’t post things like “I pooped blood today” or “spent the afternoon fighting and calling each other names.”

On the other end of the spectrum, if you’re the lucky owner of many mega-millions, flaunting your money is bound to cause envy, resentment, and worst of all, it will attract mooches and leeches galore. Not just gold-diggers and flatterers and “entourages,” but friends and relatives with sob stories asking for loans or bailouts.

We all present ourselves with a carefully constructed persona that lets us negotiate with the world. Even if that persona is “folksy and unassuming” or “careless and disheveled,” it’s still a persona. For some it was learned from childhood and is now second nature, others manage it self-consciously with various degrees of success, but we all have the need for masks and costumes in order to operate and survive, and those who don’t have any are probably suffering from mental illness.

Outward signs of wealth or status are one thing, but when you talk about actual hard numbers there is very little left to conceal and reveal. Everything is out there, like a sputum sample or a fecal specimen, and there is little you can do little to control your presentation to the world at that point except maybe become a recluse like Howard Hughes.

To say “show me your money” is like saying “show me what’s under your undies”– which is why someone, I forgot who, wrote that you aren’t as naked in front of anyone as you are in front of your accountant (or some such thing).

Yes, how much you reveal about different aspects of your life varies from culture to culture, but as a social species we all do it in some measure, and those who fail to manage their presentation usually pay a high price for it in some way or another.

I wonder whether, culturally, there is any correlation between willingness to talk about salary/pay/worth and the individual’s perception of control over their earnings. E.g., in the Russian examples, there’s a long history there of individuals having little direct control over their ability to earn; so perhaps it’s easier to talk about money because making little isn’t something to blame oneself (or others) for. Whereas in the US, we believe our money is 100% in our own control, therefore we are ashamed or proud or judgmental of others accordingly. Just a hypothesis.

So while the protestants, which were mostly the Scotts and the English, were out starting businesses and buying big manors on the mountain us good French Canadians were out ploughing our fields and doing God’s work. Many people would be jealous of those who had an entrepreneurial bent and who would ”graduate” from the fields and had an easier time in life and a more comfortable financial situation. They felt that it was impossible for them to attain such a status in life and so jealousy and resentment followed in many cases. You have to understand that we were an agrarian society where the majority of our population lived in small communities (from the 1600s all the way until the late 1950s) and the parish priest was the Supreme Power and controlled everything.

It also stems from the French Revolution where being bourgeois meant you lost your head. Since New France was colonized around the time of the revolution and afterwards, these ideas remained.

I talk relatively freely about money with my sisters, my three best girlfriends, and my husband.

I talk less freely about money with my parents, and about money almost not at all with *his* parents.

My parents do not share our experience (both working full-time for life, lifelong renters) and they really do not grasp how this makes our financial planning different from theirs. They are also very judgy about any debt – Dad’s paid cash for their last three residences.

My in-laws are completely clueless about money, as about much else, and any meaningful discussion turns into an inquisition where they ask tons of questions that we try to answer, request advice that we try to give, and then ignore everything we’ve said and keep on doing what they’re doing. Le sigh.

Security for one thing. If someone knows you have $$$, you may become a target. Humility is another…bragging about a lot of money is tacky. The ‘mine is bigger than yours’ mind set…that competitive garbage…is often a turn off. When someone does talk FACTS, though, like how a ROTH ira works etc folks very willingly talk about that, how to plan for a goal..yes….but the personal stuff…no.

#1 – you don’t tell people how much money you have because they will sue you and they will ask you for money…

The thing is, this applies if you are doing well at all financially – not only if you are worth millions.

For reference, in my 20s I had a $50k per year job (I found out less than any of my peers at the time – high cost area/young in my career), husband was unemployed, big home/small mortgage, barely anything in retirement, NO DEBT (non-mortgage), and not that many assets to speak of. The attitude? Well, “you are an accountant, your spouse doesn’t work, and you have a nice home. You must make six figures – why are you such a CHEAPSKATE!” The fact is we were probably living a little beyound our means at that time, financed by pre-kid and pre-unemployment savings. I couldn’t imagine people’s reactions if I actually had a good income or any money to speak of. So the better we do over time, the less I talk about it.

I now just keep to myself and let everyone assume my income is huge and I am in debt up to my eyeballs. It’s easier that way!

With age and assets, the last thing you need is your friends and relatives thinking you should shoulder more because you make more or saved more. The Millionaire Next Door had it right on – if you want to be wealthy and stay wealthy, keep it private. WE are all guilty. Just think about how your attitude changes towards a person when you find out they make significantly more or less money than you thought. When you find out they have a financial burden you were not aware of. If they recieve an inheritance (and you never have!) As a tax professional people come to me with their big financial picture, often. It’s something that the average person rarely gets to see, or would even understand if they did. Everything else is generally an incorrect snap judgement. The more you keep private, the less you are hurt by these judgements. How much money you appear to have really means nothing at the end of the day. I still laugh to think of my six-figured friends jealous of my small income and budget. Sure, I had no debt, but it took sacrifices they weren’t willing to make, plain and simple. People see what they want to see.

I remember in high school, when I had to fill out forms (for SATs maybe?) that requested household income, my mother told me this was private information and I shouldn’t tell anyone – and then we filled in the highest bubble.

I’m still uncomfortable talking about money – even with my dad, who does our taxes every year so he clearly knows. Fear of judgement? embarrassment over our inability to do much with what we have? I don’t know.

It’s even hard to discuss with my husband, because our attitudes are so different – he wants to live for today, I want to save for tomorrow, and it’s challenging to find common ground. Any conversation can turn quickly into a fight. We have what I’d call an uneasy peace; anything happens to rock the boat and we’re a mess again. So I don’t like to talk about it.

There is definitely a lot of truth to this argument, but I’m thinking about your audience. Do you think some of the kids were wondering more specifically about why their parents don’t talk to them about money? Because presumably they are close to their parents, so why isn’t this information being shared? I know that my parents didn’t involve me in the nitty gritty of the family finances, but I could sense when the real estate market was slow and dad was around more… and with my limited knowledge, it was easy to let worry creep in, even as an 8-10 year old. A lot of money to me was $10 at the time, so I had no concept of how anyone could earn enough to pay for private school for 3 kids, a nice house, etc. -even if I didn’t know how much any of it cost. Maybe parents don’t talk about money with their kids because they don’t want them to worry. On the flip side, my dad was great about talking to me about and teaching me about the importance of getting into the habit of saving, giving back to institutions that have helped you along the way, investing in the stock market, bonds, risk and Roth IRAs, etc. (starting at the age of 12!). And for that I will be forever grateful. Is it easier to talk about money when speaking in terms of goals rather than day-to-day living?

I think not talking about salary gives employers an advantage. As I switch jobs it has been very difficult to determine what I am worth (Not what I want to be worth).

When I was 16 I worked my second summer as a camp councilor I was paid $400 for the summer ($100 more then the year before). When I found out the new first year councilors were also paid $400 I asked the director why I couldn’t be paid more and he said we shouldn’t be talking about our salaries. (No performance or responsibility reasons). I have found this to be true in every job. Your employer does not want you to know what anyone else is making for fear that you might find out that Bob who slacks off gets 20% more then you.

I agree that many people do not talk about money because of their own self image (positive or negative). However, I think the young lady was more looking for information validation. She knows her teacher is educated and prepared to be a teacher, and she wanted to make sure JD actually knew what he was talking about. You don’t want fishing advice from a person who’s never even seen the water. And, maybe this young lady doesn’t want money advice from a pauper, especially since she probably doesn’t have a lot of experience in the area of money yet.

I have an 11 year old – and believe me, if he was told that someone was the owner of a blog called “Get Rich…” he would want to know how rich they were!

OK, I just asked him “how much money would you have to have to be rich?” His answer: “It depends on what you mean by rich and the person – for you, it’s probably a million dollars and to my dad it’s probably $25,000. Some people don’t have very high expectations.” Out of the mouths of babes…

Yeah, we’re pretty open about money in my house but that kid knows the value of a buck and to maximize his income.

One of the things that I find funny about how little people will talk about money is when people won’t even discuss with their own children how much money they make and how much everything costs and how to deal with money. We are all so worried about talking to our kids about drugs and sex but we aren’t teaching them about money.

I have talked to lots of people about this because it’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine and I am amazed at how many people tell me they won’t tell their kids how much money they make because they think they will tell their friends. Who Cares!

How do we expect to change the way our society deals with money and teach our kids without revealing our own mistakes and successes and income!

The idea makes me a little uncomfortable, but it does solve problems of inequality and favortism. Not sure how it relates to the topic at hand, but I found this information fascinating when I first learned it.

I used to work in a unionized industry. Even though I was never union-eligible, the company listed jobs internally complete with pay scales. There were a few jobs that looked good in the job description but didn’t pay as much as I made, so I didn’t apply.

My last job was a private company that was so opaque, you couldn’t tell by listed job title or description what it was likely to pay. You had to apply and then find out in the offer letter. It made forming a career path inside the company really, really difficult – most of my ambitious friends left because if they couldnt’ find a mentor to help them navigate, they couldn’t see a future there even if one probably existed.

I think it all comes down to fear of judgement at the end of the day. It’s one thing to talk about how much your car cost or even how much your mortgage payment is, because those are just isolated pieces of the puzzle. But if someone knows exactly what you make and how much money you have, they can continually apply their own financial values to anything you do with your money.

For example, I think many people in our lives would probably think we are way too thifty for our financial position/income. They would think us silly for avoiding dinners out and worrying about the cost of our cell phone plans and buying a used car, because in their financial worldview, we can afford those things. We don’t believe we can.

Meanwhile others are probably shocked at what we spend because they are thiftier or just have different priorities for their money.

Either way, spending decisions are so laced with judgement that I feel more comfortable at this point in my life keeping the big picture of my finances mainly to myself (and my spouse). That said though, I have no problem talking about the small pieces because I think that can be educational for all involved.

I don’t talk about money except to a select few people, but I still get judged anyway!

Most of my friends and family know I’m saving up for a home, so that’s eliminated a lot of the judgement lately. No need to ask why I’m not eating out or buying a smart phone — they know I’m saving for a big goal.

Truthfully, my lifestyle hasn’t really changed ;) People just more comfortable with my frugality now that there’s a goal they can understand. (Somehow saving for retirement and building an emergency fund doesn’t have the same sway as something you buy.)

I think people do not talk about money for a variety of reasons. The first is they do not not anything about it, they do not want to share their mistakes or embarrased about it. I do not like to share personal information publicly and I think there are others who feel the same way.

Very interesting post. I agree that people really tip toe around money to avoid hurting others feelings and also to avoid seeming superficial. When I was in Oxford, I was talking to a student from Estonia who was majoring in Economics and Management. When I asked him why he thought picked that major he said, unashamedly,”I want to make money and Economics and Management teaches you how to make money.” It was refreshing to hear someone speak so honestly about money.

I have tried to talk with my parents about their important financial choices. They live far away and I talked with each on the phone. I learned that they don’t talk about finances because they don’t want to rock the boat.

On the other hand, some people don’t have reasonable discussions because they know-it-all.

And some people just don’t like having conversations about things that are difficult to understand or don’t have easy answers– this is also very apparent in politics.

I have two friends I speak to about money and finances because we share similar values and perspectives around money, debt, savings, and living within our means. I have another friend who doesn’t share the same values, has more toys and a bigger house, but is always broke. I’ve chosen to avoid talking about finances with him because its hard to restrain from pointing out his and his spouse’s pain is self-imposed and their inability to learn from mistakes to date.

I find it sad to contemplate this last friend having to working 15 years+ after me and the first two friends are retired.

So ultimatly JD’s on the right track, I talk with those I’m comfortable talking to.

For me, I’m not where I want to be financially at this part of my life so I always avoid the questions if possible. Its not a matter of pretending that I have more at all as some here would like to assume, its just a matter of not wanting to be judge – regardless if its real or not.

I carry a lot of shame in general though, not just finances. Ashamed that I’m 33 and divorced (in my early 20s), ashamed that I have a disability, ashamed that I use a cane, shamed that I’m only able to work part-time, ashamed that I’m not able to travel extensively, ashamed that I’m drowning in medical debt (but its getting better), and so on. Money is just the tip of the iceberg.

I’ve been doing political work with people in foreclosure lately, and they all say that coming forward and telling their story is tremendously freeing from that feeling of isolation and shame.

That may not be true for everyone – these folks have an active and sympathetic community to join when they tell their story, which helps an awful lot. But there are similar examples in the comments here, too.

I guess I don’t tell people how much I make or what my net worth is because I prefer it to be a mystery. And it’s not really anyone’s business unless we’re sharing finances, is it?

I will say that in the last few years, whether it is because of age or just being more in tune with my finances, I don’t spend nearly as much on expensive things for the sake of looking wealthy.

There was a time in my 20s when I would go out of my way to buy Prada or Louis Vuitton labels just to be seen wearing them and let people think I have more money than I did. Ironically now that I could spend money on it without really doing any damage to my savings or goals, I don’t want to. I often cry poor even though I know I make a lot of money.

Giving our income on an anonymous internet website is probably not going to dispel any notion that people don’t talk about money.

I do find it interesting that JD brings up the girl asking if he’s a millionaire. We get it JD, you did well selling the website ;-) And I’m sure everyone here is very happy for you; it is a great community you have built.

For us it’s because we don’t like being judged by others, or make them jealous. We’re older by about 5 years than most of our friends and have more assets/income then they do, but we still mostly live like we’re in college — small apartments, cheap furniture, old cars — we have really worked to avoid lifestyle inflation.

If our friends knew how much we make I’m afraid they would just think we were cheap when we ask about doing pot lucks or playing board games or doing other frugal things.

We did tell one friend how much we have and now he’s getting married. I’m going to feel obligated to spend more on the wedding gift than I normally would, for fear of being seen as cheap.

Honestly, I’m pretty comfortable talking about money- my money, that is. I’ve always thought that social pressure to not talk about it was based on classism. Now I’ve stopped talking about it too much because I get annoyed with other people! For example, it’s hard to not say something to a co-worker who openly admits to needing hours because she’s poor while simultaneously going out to eat.

People judge. Just look at the comments section from yesterday’s post at GRS. Some people were on there bragging how they were doing better than their friends financially.

Some people yesterday didn’t have TV and were judging those that were paying for cable TV packages. They were assuming that those who paid for cable TV were in debt, fat, lazy, and better.

There was also a lot of reverse snobbishness going on too. Some young guy in his early 20s was bragging about how he was better off than some friends in his 30s and 40s.

Also at GRS and other PF forums there are a lot of poor and middle class people that like to make fun of affluent wealthy people. They assume wrongly that affluent people are evil, in massive debt and that the wealthy are snotty.

That’s reverse snobbishness and its wrong. Also your writer Sarah Gilbert had this attitude that she was better than others she knew in real life.

Why would I discuss salary and money with anyone in real life if its especially bad online?

I don’t know WHY we (in general) don’t talk about money. Maybe privacy issues. I do believe that one reason financial literacy is (generally) so low in the U.S. is that we DON’T talk about money. We don’t talk about how to make more, or how to spend less, or how to borrow less. We only seem to like to talk about how we spent on this gadget or that luxury, or how much we saved on X purchase. In other words, we tend to talk about it when it’s a matter of keeping up with (or outdoing) the Joneses.

As I’ve gone through a major financial transition over the last four+ years, I’ve become much more open about my finances. There’s nothing wrong with telling my friends and family how much or little debt I have ($0), or how much I put in savings ($700-something/month), or even how much I make ($2k/month). And hopefully sharing this information will encourage my less disciplined family members and friends to spend less and save more.

If we stop comparing ourselves to others, we won’t have to feel bad about what we have (or don’t have) in comparison to them… but comparison seems to be almost an American way of life.

Isn’t there an old saying that you can’t ask a Woman’s age and a Man’s Salary. Of course we’re not talking gender here but, i just thought of it. This is a very interesting topic and I’ve had situations where I am open to discuss how much we make as family but, may be because we feel like we earned it. I had situations where my friends will not their finances when I was totally expecting them to be transparent like us. Professionally, it can cause issues with other colleagues etc.,

People judge each other severely on how they use, invest and spend their money. Just look at the comments here and other forums, people look down or think they’re better than others on how they use their own money. Its really sad and that’s why I refuse to talk money with anyone except my parents and my bf and financial adviser.

We don’t talk about money in the USA because that is the custom in the USA. Why is that the custom in the USA? I don’t know. Its just always been that way.. well probably always. Maybe we just brought the custom across the Atlantic when we came over from certain European cultures back in the 16th- 18th centuries. Maybe its from something in Biblical teachings.

There may be a variety of reasons why people developed this custom of considering money talk a taboo subject:

* poor people get jealous of rich
* rich people are embarrassed of their wealth
* rich people don’t want poor people to know exactly how bad they have it and how good the rich have it to avoid social revolution
* employers don’t want employees comparing paychecks and noting inequalities
* poor people are embarrassed or ashamed of their low income or wealth
* people with money don’t want their poor friends borrowing or begging for some
* people are embarrassed of how they spend money
* people are hiding their wealth for fear of theft

A lot of it boils down to judging one another. Some of it is just avoiding conflict. Occasionally people are keeping status quo intact.

What is interesting, though, is that many of the possible reasons you list are effectively nullified by the fact that our culture also encourages the broadcasting the status of our wealth through material things.

It’s really rather odd if you think about it: the social norm is to not discuss how much money you have, but it is actually socially acceptable to try and broadcast that same information through owning and displaying the most expensive things you can afford.

Well its one thing to tell people its impolite to talk about money. But its quite another thing to tell people they shouldn’t buy expensive stuff.
Not talking about it simply avoids the conflicts. Thats a fairly easy social rule to develop.
Not buying expensive stuff is denying people the right to do what they want with their money. That wouldn’t fly.
Avoiding a topic in discussion is quite different. We do that with a lot of stuff.
I mean we don’t talk about sex but people still do have sex.

Course it also depends on how your displaying your wealth. Would you drive your new Porshe around the ghetto? Would you brag about your expensive new house to your poor friends? I think that ostentatious displays of wealth are generally also considered distasteful in certain circumstances.

Actually, in the USA people talk about money a lot more than they do in other countries.

When I first came here for college I was shocked when classmates would ask me “how much is your rent?” Eventually I got used to it.

People will also ask how much you pay for things much more nonchalantly than in other countries. “Hey how much are those shoes?” “What did your car cost?” “How much did you pay for your camera?” Etc. Sometimes this is handy when trying to evaluate the market, but sometimes it feels like sheer nosiness.

People here will also ask you frequently about your age, and will obstinately demand an answer if denied. This is considered rude in a lot of places.

The USA isn’t the most discreet society in the planet when it comes to sharing one’s private information. Everyone wants to know “what you do for a living?” when they first meet you. Why?? Seriously, there are much more interesting ways to break the ice in a conversation than discussing business– ugh! But maybe this serves a social function I do not yet comprehend.

I find the USA pretty open with regards to private information compared to other places– sometimes so open that I need to look away. Is it a surprise that this is the birthplace of “reality” TV and Jerry Springer-like shows?

On the other hand, there are plenty of places where people are much, much more open about money than they are in the U.S.. In China it’s completely normal for perfect strangers to ask you how much you make, just as part of a casual conversation. It’s so normal that if you try to evade the question people tend to just ask again, because it doesn’t occur to them that it’s a question that might make you uncomfortable.

I know that I make quite a bit less money than my best friends (probably about a third) but it doesn’t come between us, at all. In fact, we all know approximately what everyone else makes. Last night, though, we were all talking about my friend’s coworker, who never did any work and that was when I got a little jealous. She makes more money than I do, and that’s not fair!

Interesting post and comments. Reminds me of a conversation with a relative after I’d gotten my first job after college. He asked what I was earning, I told him, and he said “Oh. I’m sorry.” That stung.

If we don’t talk about money because we are afraid of being judged or of making others feel bad, why is it that we also tend to spend our money on expensive things, and then show them off as a means of advertising how much money we have?

Broadcasting one’s social status through the display of expensive clothes, cars, accessories and other *things* is common across many cultures and societies. Yet many also don’t like to discuss the actual subject being so aggressively advertised (how much money one has).

It is a bit contradictory, but I still think it is somewhat close to the truth. Though I’m not sure exactly how to reconcile it or what to conclude from it.

Talking about money (or not talking about it) is a function of oneâ€™s family upbringing, cultural socialization and personal choice. Money can be a tricky subject because on the one hand, no one wants to come off with poor taste in the discussion, on the other, when the subject does come up, you donâ€™t want to be the only one without something to say about it. Perhaps the first conversation that people need to have about money is with themselves. Pondering what your perception is, and consider the different dynamics that have to do with money on your own so that when the subject does come up, you will know exactly what youâ€™re willing to say (and not say) about it.

While I don’t want to share details with everyone or a very broad circle, I do wish I had a few close friends that I could really talk money with. To bounce ideas/thoughts off of, to get other perspectives, etc. But given that that’s not our cultural norm, it feels awkward to even approach the possibility with someone…

I’m a consultant in the Boston area in a niche field and a LONG commute. $110K if I actually bill 40 hrs/wk, 50 wks this year.

Despite this, I need to be uber-frugal because I can only commit to 1 client at a time, the “down-time” between contracts can be quite long, and despite a contract in place, projects and corporate finances can change direction suddenly, and I can find myself let go with scant warning.

I love talking about money. However, I love talking about investments, retirement, credit scores and the best rewards cards.

I don’t talk about actual income with people because I work in an industry where each person negotiates his or her own contract and there is a huge discrepancy regarding who makes what. The hardest workers are the youngest, lowest paid people who may not have the experience and judgement people at higher levels have. Then again, some 30 year employees have not kept up their skills and are way overpaid.
To me, salary is up there with religion, politics, age and other personal topics. They are personal and kept open only to the people you know and trust the most because they are something about which acquaintances can get judgmental.
I think my work skills, negotiating skills, background research on salaries and gumption have landed me a bigger salary than some of my peers.
They would probably not agree I’m not worth more, so why go there?
I am a little looser with friends though.
:) Good Post, very interesting JD!

I tend to talk frankly about almost all topics, including money. But, sometimes I don’t. Generally when I don’t is when I feel like I’ve done something I’m not proud of (like not saving enough or making a mis-step) but sometimes it’s when I think it might make someone else uncomfortable. The latter is rarer, for the simple fact that I try to treat myself and others like mature people. If I am doing better than you financially, that is not a judgement against you. If I care at all, then the only thing I care about is if something in my experience might help you with your own financial goals. More likely though, I’m looking to learn from you because I am not doing as well as I could or should be.

Another reason I think people keep it discreet is because they don’t want others to feel like they have a claim on their money. Either in the “how can you say you *can’t* afford it when I know you have X money in the bank” or “I’m your parent/sibling/grandparent, why aren’t you helping me out financially”? Truthfully, I don’t worry about that end of it because I have no problem saying NO. lol. Any obligations on my part are only there explicitly and with my full permission – some subject to change at any time. I do not tolerate users in my life, I don’t care if they’re relatives, friends or strangers.

I love talking about money with pretty much everyone. The only reason I am wary is fear of being judged — not for how much or little I make, but for wanting to talk about it. Since so many people have the attitude — or at least it’s a cultural “rule” aside from how people actually feel — that it’s not a proper thing to discuss, I sometimes feel uncomfortable broaching the topic. Because of course you don’t want people to think you’re gauche!

Although I did actually just have a conversation this evening with one of my coworkers that included the divulging of salaries. Gasp! And I think we were both curious to learn the numbers, and I at least was relieved to learn that our employer is treating us in a manner that seems fair to me.

In the military, we all know pretty much exactly what everybody else makes; you just have to know their rank and how long they’ve served. Pay charts are published online and it just takes a second to look it up. So that’s always out in the open, and we get along just fine.

Its actually useful in some cases – if one of the low-ranking guys I’m in charge of suddenly buys new cars and a bunch of expensive toys, I know to sit down with him and figure out what is going on. Financial irresponsibility is something you can actually get in trouble for! (at least in the Air Force, I guess I can’t speak for the Army or Navy)

I was reading through the posts waiting for someone to bring this up. I’m in the Navy, and I love that our salaries are common knowledge! It’s pretty freeing.

Despite that though, there’s still a lot of reluctance among my peers and I to discuss the specifics of how we spend and save that money. We could probably learn a lot from one another about investing, saving, and spending, but actually sitting down and parsing out where our money goes is still subject to strange cultural “privacy” issues.

My own parents led me to believe we were poor when I was a child (which was completely untrue) and to this day I still don’t know how much money they have.

I think people put too much value on money. In other words, they measure their own value & the value of others too much by how much money they have or what job they do. When we learn to value people for who they are, not what they do or what they earn, I think it’s easier to talk about money.

In my case, it doesn’t bother me at all to share how much our family earns but I’ve noticed it embarrasses others if I talk about it so I don’t in most cases. Our income is $40,000 per year, not something to really brag about but not something to be ashamed of considering we’re debt-free living on 5 lake-front acres. But even that shows pride. Saying what I earn & what I’ve done with my money can easily show pride in one way or self-pity in other ways. Most of us don’t want to do either.

I do think parents should talk about money openly, often in front of their children. We did that as our son grew up, explaining questions & explaining limits as things came up. As an adult he’s said it really helped him learn how to handle his money better. I disagree that Americans talk about money too much. In our families at least, we don’t talk about it enough.

A number of years ago we volunteered for a free “money makeover” in which a financial planner worked with us for free and a newspaper reporter wrote an article based on the findings. It was kind of weird to see our financial information plastered on the front of the Business section, but I got over it. I don’t know if people really care as much as you think they do; everyone is busy with their own lives and people don’t have a lot of time to worry about what I am doing right or wrong. I do think people get very judgmental when the person in question is on public assistance (e.g. the Wall Street Journal had an editorial the other day in which the writer was all upset because a person bought a big birthday cake with the bridge card).

I do think it’s to spare people from becoming uncomfortable or jealous. It can come between friends. We share our money situation only with our parents and our adult kids. It’s to reassure them that everything is ok.

Nobody wants to feel inadequate, nor do they want to make anybody else feel inadequate. I think that’s why people drowned themselves in debt, because they are trying to act like they are equal with everybody in their peer group, but nobody discloses their financial statements. I guess it boils down to insecurity.

If someone asks me how much I earn or how much I owe in student loans or how much my electricity bill is each month, I would answer them truthfully. I would do the same with my age, marital status, or why I don’t have kids.

Those are all questions I would not ask someone else (even though I might be quite curious about them), because I was taught to think they are impolite questions, but that it’s also impolite to respond to them by saying it’s none of the questioner’s business.

I think most people attach their financial worth to their personal worth. Especially in the USA. People are worth so much more than dollars and cents. So, what JD is saying is true; we don’t talk about money because we don’t want to be judged.

I think some people don’t recognize the fine line between informative and nosy. There is a huge difference between ‘How did you get started in mutual funds?’ and ‘How much do you have in your account?’

Honestly? I think a big reason we suck at handling money, particularly as inexperienced young people, is that adults are unwilling to talk about specifics. Teaching kids to handle money involves more than just general principles– it involves specific AMOUNTS. How much does a car cost? What’s a reasonable price to pay for a popsicle on the street? What kinds of salaries do adults make for different jobs? How much is our rent? If we don’t give kids some of this information, they really have no basis to know whether the job they’re applying for pays enough to cover expenses ($10,000 sounds like a vast fortune), or whether the price of something is a good value. This includes being willing to answer the question of how much money we have. I think you should have answered Hannah’s question.

If I could go back in time and undo half the “you can do anything!” pop talks and magically turn them into “here are different things people do and some of these people make an order of magnitude more money than others” talks, I would have so many more options in my life right now.

I think it is two reasons: judgment and complication.
We all judge how others spend their money: that friend that says they can’t afford to go out to dinner with the group because they get paid so little but just spent $200 on another pair of boots. It is their money and as long as they are not asking for a loan, I try not to judge, but we all do it.

I think the complication is the larger problem. How much money (or debt) do you have is a VERY complicated question. Do you count only the cash? Do you included the current worth of real estate, even if the property would not sell if you wanted to unload it? Do you count money that is tied up in retirement accounts that you will not be able to access for 30 years? Do you count the current debt amount or the amount that you will really pay over time? Whatever answer you give has to be qualified and most people do not want to take the time.

I think much of this depends on how you regard money. If you consider it as the most important thing in your life (as many people do, no matter what they say), I think you’ll be naturally secretive about it. If, on the other hand, you see it as the abstract concept it is, you don’t mind people knowing how many beans you get paid for working!

All I know is that from where I grew up (SW Iowa) people didn’t talk about anything. It was amazing how everyone kept themselves in ignorance of so much – many still do. Once I moved to SoCal, I have found most everything is much more freely discussed. I find that it is for the better. You learn so much through discussion from others and learning from others mistakes and positive outcomes. The only way we learn about anything and learn to negotiate the handling of things, such as money, is to discuss it, ask questions and have examples to view, follow or learn from.

I definitely believe people feel a sense of judgement and even embarrassment when it comes to how they manage money. I think a majority feels they could do better with their money and don’t want to expose their shortfall.

I even think it’s harder to share with those you are close to- the fear of judgement and embarrassment grows exponentially.

People don’t talk about money ‘cos they don’t often understand how to use it – wisely. Money is used and abused. We don’t truly understand why the world is obsessed with their precious currencies. Quality of life does not often equal money. Success and money can be two different things. People don’t talk about money ‘cos it’s confusing and it doesn’t buy them love!

Well…we try to not divulge too much information. But at times we do. Like when my wife’s sister kept trying to “help” her out, kept emailing and calling about job postings for nurses in our home state. Talking about how great they paid. Finally my wife broke down and told her just how much she was making in Alaska, and that she kinda enjoyed only working for half the year and having the other half off. Too often people assume that their way is the best way, and just can’t understand when someone does something that’s not “normal”.

Also, I was virtually chased off a forum for travel nurses, because they didn’t like the numbers I was posting. I had to be lying, making it up, it’s impossible, etc. Even when one of the mods stepped in and was able to actually verify all my numbers as being absolutely truthful (she contacted the specific recruiter we worked with). I just don’t understand…they WANT people to post numbers, so they can know if they’re getting a raw deal or not.

So we say we want to know what someone else is making, but honestly we don’t. If someone’s making more than you are, then you make up all kinds of reasons why that is…and rarely do we focus on the fact that maybe they’re doing something better than you are (whether it’s being better at their job, better at negotiating, better at choosing which job to take, etc).

I once had a friend who was newly arrived from the Phillipines. She would ask people point blank how much they made or how much they paid for a house. I think it was a cultural thing and she didn’t realize that many Americns were uncomfortable about revealing things like that.

I think it could be shame. From a personal perspective the way my parents use to approach my questions about money was very negative and there was a very simple reason why- they didn’t have any. Here’s the catch though, between the two they make over six figures a year, but like many people- thanks to debt- how much someone makes and how much they’re worth can be completely different answers.

My parents negative responses to my money questions, in my opinion, steamed from shame and the fact that for all their hard work they had nothing to show for it. Now that I’m older I know how much my parents make and how much is being thrown into bills and I have to say that I am pretty disappointed in my parents and where they are financially, which is worse than where they were a few years ago. They’ve even been offered help to create a balanced budget from a money savvy family member who needed total financial transparency from them, yet they still have that shame about them choosing to fix the problem themselves, which doesn’t seem to be working.

I, on the other hand, since I come from a back ground of money mismanagers I’m a bit more open about how much I’m worth and how much I make. It’s because as a recent college graduate with student loans, I’m eager and anxious to rid myself of the burden and welcome advice that people can give me in order to achieve my financial goals and from experience the best advice that I get is from the people who know the most information about my financial situation.

Another answer could be caution. I know of people who are well off and even without being totally transparent about their wealth they always seem to have people wanting things from them.

I don’t know, based on what was in this article, I feel like J.D. missed a really good opportunity with those kids, to teach them about real money. Money was SOOOO opaque to me when I was a kid, I had no clue through grade school, high school, even to some extent college. This is true for a lot of people, and we often go into debt just uto learn good money management. While J.D. might have felt bad about revealing HIS own money, he might next time do a couple of sample budget using a couple of easily-understood professions (McDonalds line worker, teacher, doctor, Secret Service agent). So then kids see that health care costs this much every month, and car payment costs this much, and car insurance costs this, and rent costs this much, and …

I also agree with most everyone for the reasons we don’t discuss money. My company recently created job bands (with published low, average, and high salaries), slotted everyone into place, and just laid it all out there. That shook up a lot of things, some good but with a lot of short-term bad feelings from being paid below average.

$93K, Northern Virginia (DC metro area), I pay $1,600/month in rent, paying down a Master’s degree, working on my 6-month emergency fund (was doing well until a divorce). Currently I am trying to stop the hemmorhage into expensive ($15) lunches and lots of little Amazon purchases (which add up fast). Newish to GRS and know I have a lot to learn.

PRIVACY: It is not wise to throw your financial status out to the world-to strangers or mere acquaintences. They see you have no walls on the subject and feel free to discuss it with anyone, so the info may end up in the wrong hands. Next thing you know, the beggars in life will be knocking on your door or you may find yourself being jumped. Info travels fast. It’s like carrying a handbag on the wrong side of town – just not smart.

I do not talk about the amount of money my wife and I have because we want to keep it. In our family there are people who keep begging other members of the family for a loan of even for a gift. And as far as I am concerned their money problems originate in simply spending too much. And we have found that as long as they believe we are poor, they do not bother us.
I have no problem helping other people with their problems, but I do not help people with living above their means.

It sounds like it’s not just about judgement but control. Once people know, they want to influence how you spend your money, whether its who pays for dinner, or in a more extreme example, the “taxpayers” who go bananas over teacher salaries.

If people don’t know, there is a lot less pressure to do what they want.

For me, it is all about competition. I want to be winning. When I speak to someone about money that I think is equal with me as far as net worth or salary and I find out they are far ahead of me, despite me watching my finances, reading financial blogs, paying attention to the markets, etc….It would be disheartening to hear about itâ€¦I am losing the â€œrace.â€ Luckily that has never happened, since I do read fine blogs such as this one.

I’m young and work for a nonprofit, so don’t make much money. I’m more than happy to talk with my friends about money because we’re all in the same boat–trying to pay off student loan debt, figuring out how to spend and save, learn how to negotiate job offers, raises, etc. I feel like once people diverge a bit more (ie you make 50K more than I do a year) they’re more reluctant to talk about money. Frankly, I wish friends at work would be more open to talking about so more people would know what their colleagues ,ale and what a reasonable salary or raise request is. I get the feeling that secrecy benefits employers and hurts employees.

I wish that we talked about money candidly, but I’ve gotten burned for doing it. My senior year of high school, I had a couple thousands for the first time in my life. I bought two best friends and all of us always hit the town. They whittled down my cash and never brought their wallets. I learned my lesson mostly then when I lost them when the cash dried up. In college, I told 3 of my very close friends how much my allowance was – and they demanded that I start picking up the tab more often. Why should my money, which was earned by my parents working 80+ hour weeks and leaving me to be raised by a nanny/babysitter for most of my childhood, go towards their upkeep? If their parents didn’t work more than 80 hours, then their kids aren’t going to reap the financial rewards of the parents missing out on their kids’ lives.

It was a very eye opening situation to be in at my first real job when I was the most junior employee at a company, but I was in charge of running payroll, so I knew how much everyone else made. You would think that would have made it easier for me to negotiate for myself, but really it didn’t. When you’re the most junior, you expect to be paid the least. What I didn’t take into account was that I was probably still paid a lot less than I should have been. Even with a substantial raise I would have still been the most junior, but would have been better off. But I took that knowledge to my next job and it all evened out.

Plus in Silicon Valley, where I am, stock options can add a complicating factor. They’re used to justify paying someone less or more than other people at the company even if in the long run they will be worth nothing. That was also some very eye-opening context to take to my next job. I ended up both being paid quite well and having a lot of stock options (which again did not end up meaning anything, except in negotiating cred to the people who were aware of how much I had been given).

Like lots of commenters, I think we partly don’t talk about money because we don’t like to be judged.

I don’t judge people by how much they make, although I do sometimes think that they are over- or under-paid for what they do – this is more a judgement on the job/remuneration policy of the employer.

However I definitely judge people on how they spend their money. It’s not a good trait. I also do it to myself, so at least I am not too much of a hypocrite. I recognise that people have different spending/saving/life priorities, but that only goes so far. When I see my friend who is living from paycheck to paycheck and complains about not having any savigns to go on holidats, fork out $140 for one skirt, I do judge her negatively. It makes me feel horrible and mean (in both senses of the word) but I do it.

On the other hand, I am very open about my finances and am probably judged, although no one but my immediate family and my partner actually comment on my spending/saving habits.

Funny. I have no problem talking to people about money but out of social convention/norms, I usually don’t. I didn’t always make a lot; I do now. However, income is but one of many factors. I talk about my negatives too. They are just facts – my reality – and people who judge on those bases are welcome to do so. I can choose to associate with them or not just as well. I don’t particularly care what anyone makes. I’m competing with myself. I know that’s not a popular or common view, but I’m weird.

I learned to keep quiet on the subject the hard way. My first job out of college was a place where everyone made roughly the same money… so nobody minded sharing details of a small raise.
Then I found a job at a nearby company for $3k more and I told everyone about it (hey everyone – they are hiring!). Only my current company wanted me to stay so they matched the salary… and everyone knew that I now made $3k more than everyone else. Even people who had been there for 2 years more than me. Suddenly I had to deal with some animosity and resentment. As a result – I’ll never again disclose my salary.

Sorry if I am repeating anyone… there are 275 comments and I could not read them all before responding.

My boyfriend and I recently had a discussion about finances. No, neither one of us told the other what we make or what we have in savings. That can bring about imbalances in the relationship (for that matter, in any friendship, too) because as you said, no one wants to be judged. But why? What is there to judge about money? Is what you earn equal to your actual worth as a person? Is your life only as valuable as your savings and investments?

We did not directly address these questions, but instead discussed how difficult it is to find the right information on financial success. He has his retirement fund set up already, and I have yet to find what one would call a “career”. (He is the one who turned me on to the Get Rich Slowly blog.)

Is it possible that our reluctance (as a society) to discuss money matters with those outside our close social circles prevents free exchange of information? For instance, had I not swallowed my pride and divulged information about minor credit card debt to him 6 months ago, I would probably not have heard of this blog, nor would I have anything in my savings at the moment.

Maybe it is pride. I watched my parents spend way beyond what their budget should be on entertainment and, what I would call, unnecessary items. This is probably because advertising perpetuates the idea that having more things means success. I do not think they have changed social classes… I think the social class just looks different now than it did, say, even 30 years ago.

On the other hand, I have a few friends, two in particular, who have parents that are very well off. They downplay it, as though they feel guilty for having no student loan debt and free cars while the rest of us struggle to pay the bills and feed ourselves. They are more responsible and, rightly, want to distance themselves from the spoiled rich kids we all knew from our college days, calling home for money after a weekend of partying.

To sum this up, my boyfriend says that finances are important to him because freedom is important to him. Not everyone sees it this way, but I am coming to see it from this perspective. Money limits what you can do with your time, which restaurants you can attend, and how often and how long you can take vacation. Maybe this is a discussion of freedom, rather than money.

I think it’s sad that we don’t talk about money more. Maybe not necessarily exactly HOW much money we earn, but I think we should at least be more open to talking about what we are struggling with, what we are saving for, and how we plan on earning more money if we need to. Some people are so ashamed to talk about financial issues until it’s really too late. When you get too deeply in debt or when you have to keep up appearances even though you aren’t really able to.

My sister-in-law’s sister (I’m not sure what relationship that makes her to me?) is married to a Spaniard and lives in Spain. Apparently, since the government pays for pensions, and education and healthcare, they have no savings. They have 3 kids. Her parents are successful/entrepreneurial Asian immigrants living in the USA. Her mom is starting a savings account for her, “just in case.” Bankia looks to be on its last legs. It’s very scary. People don’t have savings, because the government is expected to pay for everything. I read somewhere that Bankia is offering Spiderman beach towels or something to young people (under 25) who put away 300 euros a month into a savings account with them.

I saw another article recently (in the WSJ?) about Spanish coal-miners striking to preserve their jobs for their grandchildren, even though it’s cheaper for Spain to import coal from Poland, and the quality of Spanish coal is very low. There’s a strong resistance to change that makes it hard for them to make progress. The culture of “moving fast and breaking things” doesn’t really exist there. Most hispanic countries aren’t very entrepreneurial by American standards.

Even within the USA, it varies some by city, state, etc. I don’t talk about my finances with my coworkers, but I do with my parents (short of actually showing them my bank statements).

well the truth is that you should save more than you spend and invest the difference.
People don’t do that? Tell them.

And do what you preach. Maybe people know what they do is not preachable and aren’t proud of it. They think the satisfaction of screwing up is greater than the benefits of discipline and self control. Well… Let them be. Don’t try to save them too hard from themselves. They will eventually realize. Just need more time than expected. It happens all the time.

I think that many people in our society feel judged by how much they earn. Not just in the west, but in the east as well. One of my most hated questions from others is, “So, what do you do?” I do lots of things, but what they really want to ask is, “How do you earn a living?” From that they can make their own assumptions about how much I might earn, or be worth. Yet my worth is so much greater than how much money I make. And I am so much more than what I do for a living.

I agree with Russ that these questions are nobody else’s business (except maybe the Tax Department). And a lot of other things, as you said, are nobody else’s business either, but so many people are trying to just be polite that they just answer the questions, no matter how intrusive they may be. We’re all so busy minding everyone else’s business, when really, our business is just about us.

I’m a STEM ambassador, so I go around to local high schools to talk about engineering as a career. At my first gig a kid asked me about salary and I didn’t answer, but it bothered me. If I’m trying to tell kids that engineering is a good career, why wouldn’t I tell them about my good salary. So now I tell classes if someone asks. It always causes a collective intake of breath, but I’m still alive, and I am being honest and open. I think that’s good.

I agree with the basic premise that people don’t want to be made uncomfortable, but I believe there is a certain category of people who especially feel this way: namely, the rich. It may sound counterintuitive, but from my experience the less money you have the more likely you are to talk about it. I work as a waitress, and my fellow employees and I will often discuss finances. Most likely we comment on the amount of money we’ve been tipped, but occasionally we’ll go into more detail about finances as a whole. Over the years the friends I’ve had from working class backgrounds have been relatively open about their family’s financial situations as well. However, as a student at a private college, I also know a ton of rich kids. I can tell when a classmate is truly rich by his or her attitude toward money, shopping, and life in general, but not from anything said to me. The rich people I know never discuss family funds, and I’ve realized that most of them don’t even consider themselves rich. I recently found out, after over a year of knowing him, that my best friend’s dad makes about $300 thousand a year! This makes him, in my view, very rich, but the thought that he might be rich didn’t even cross his mind until I brought it up. I’ve come to the conclusion that rich people use avoidance as a sort of defense mechanism against potential judgement. By thinking of themselves as normal, everyday citizens, they feel less pressure from and duty to society. By not talking about money, rich people are able to protect themselves and keep their consciences at bay. Poor or working class people, who have less to lose, talk about fincances much more freely.

I have a theory to offer: We don’t talk freely about money in America because we live under the illusion that we have a classless society. If we never discuss finances, then everyone (theoretically) is on the same playing field – or at least appears to be.

The minute money enters the conversation, a little of the curtain is pulled away and we get a clearer picture of who the person we are speaking with is: they are rich; they are poor; they have more choices than their counterpart because they have more money than their counterpart.

My wife and I earn about $90K per year combined. We have one new car and rent the 3rd floor of a house in a nice area.

We have friends our age (35) who own multiple properties. Some worked to have these properties. Some inherited money to own them. Some had trust funds in their name and made purchases from that.

We also have some friends who earn $12 / hour and own nothing and have nothing new or modern – not even a car.

Money is constantly in a state of flux.

One day my wife will make $200K per year. I may earn $100K. We will be rich compared to many but poor compared to the Koch Brothers.

It’s like my 91-year old grandmother said (who paid for two houses – one in the Boston suburbs and the other on Cape Cod – in CASH) – there is always someone greater than you and always someone smaller than you.

My personal take is who cares? If you are a kind, genuine person who are into other people for who they are not what they have, you will go far in life no matter what vocation you choose to enter or how much money you have. It doesn’t define us as human beings.

And yes, I would have answered the little girl’s question in the class about how much money I have.

I think it’s silly that the topics of salary and net worth are taboo in this country. I’ve heard that in some Asian cultures, two women might meet, and one compliments the other on her diamond ring, and asks how much it costs. This is considered a compliment, because the person has pride in their worth. Seems to go along with self-confidence, of which IMHO we Americans could use more.

I have one friend and colleague (we’re both freelancers) with whom the topic of rates is something that comes up regularly. We’ve even compared excel documents that we use for budgeting (we compared them for format and function, not for numbers, but we didn’t hide our numbers either). I think the subtext is that we both think it’s silly to avoid such topics, like most people do in our culture. Comparing rates and taking about which companies pay us the best keeps us both on our toes, in friendly competition to be constantly seeking out the higher-paying companies.

I think our culture could be greatly aided by the topics of salary and net worth suddenly becoming accepted in conversation. I feel that avoiding these topics makes each of us less competitive, and more likely to stay in a job we don’t like, at a salary that is below our level of self-worth. How different would your holiday gatherings be if you had a cousin with whom you talked about salary, and together you brainstormed ways you could each improve? Maybe he has a higher salary than you, but maybe you have some tips that could save him a significant amount of money each month. That’s like giving him a raise.

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My name is J.D. Roth. I started Get Rich Slowly in 2006 to document my personal journey as I dug out of debt. Then I shared while I learned to save and invest. Twelve years later, I've managed to reach early retirement! I'm here to help you master your money — and your life. No scams. No gimmicks. Just smart money advice to help you get rich slowly. Read more.

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