Question- Replace Shurmur with Fox tonight. How relevant is agent issue then? How much of a data point?

See, my issue is both were available when one was chosen. It has nothing to do with clique. It has to do with what can only be described as a shitty decision (and one you were right about when it went down).

But switch 'em. Change anything?

Sub in Jon Gruden for Shurmur if ya want. Still an agent discussion here? Is it still a symptom/data point?

Valid points. Not sure Fox was on the radar at all - no WCO, D minded guy and all that. Dude did make the playoffs with Tim Tebow at QB, so I'll give him some props. An improvemnt over Shurmur, but not by a lot.

Gruden would have been a dumster fire, but far more entertaining on the sidelines and at pressers than Shurmur. Same record, but more fun.

So yes, at this point a combo of Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, and Chuck Knoll probably couldn't squeeze 8 wins outta this crew.

I am starting to wonder if the game has passed Holmgren by. That he is clutching to a blueprint (WCO, hire your buds, build only through the draft) that no longer works. It's tremendously frustrating, as you look at the pedigree and add Heckert and wonder why it just doesn't work. Sometimes shit gets invented as a rationalization for another season down the toilet. "Of course the guy sucks - he let his agent pick the new HC"

Of course I can see how specious my reasoning seems - had Holmgren landed RGIII I would be first in line to kiss his ass.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Question- Replace Shurmur with Fox tonight. How relevant is agent issue then? How much of a data point?

See, my issue is both were available when one was chosen. It has nothing to do with clique. It has to do with what can only be described as a shitty decision (and one you were right about when it went down).

But switch 'em. Change anything?

Sub in Jon Gruden for Shurmur if ya want. Still an agent discussion here? Is it still a symptom/data point?

Valid points. Not sure Fox was on the radar at all - no WCO, D minded guy and all that. Dude did make the playoffs with Tim Tebow at QB, so I'll give him some props. An improvemnt over Shurmur, but not by a lot.

Gruden would have been a dumster fire, but far more entertaining on the sidelines and at pressers than Shurmur. Same record, but more fun.

So yes, at this point a combo of Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, and Chuck Knoll probably couldn't squeeze 8 wins outta this crew.

I am starting to wonder if the game has passed Holmgren by. That he is clutching to a blueprint (WCO, hire your buds, build only through the draft) that no longer works. It's tremendously frustrating, as you look at the pedigree and add Heckert and wonder why it just doesn't work. Sometimes shit gets invented as a rationalization for another season down the toilet. "Of course the guy sucks - he let his agent pick the new HC"

Of course I can see how specious my reasoning seems - had Holmgren landed RGIII I would be first in line to kiss his ass.

I don't know that the game has passed him by so much as he just doesn't give enough of a shit. He hit the lottery. He hit and he quit work. Some woulda hit it and built something with it. He seems to have gone the other way.

He and some friends are kicking it, getting paid and mailing it in. That's more and more what it feels like to me.

I would have love to seen the Browns go on a run like the Broncos did last year, and make the playoffs.

I know, I know AFC West V. AFC North, different circumstances, different coaches.

and no, I'm not saying I'd love to see a guy like Tebow under center.

But, it's getting..tiring. The excuses, the "rebuilding" that strangely never gets us past the record of 5-11, the QB controversies, the staph infections, the power struggles, incompetent coaching, the injuries, just..the flat out suck that's associated with this team right now.

Honestly, as a fan, I've only seen it twice in my lifetime that the Browns ever were considered contenders in the AFC North. Once was in 2002, which was a one and done run, the other was 2008.

There is no gleam, there is no hope with this team.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

mattvan1 wrote: I am starting to wonder if the game has passed Holmgren by. That he is clutching to a blueprint (WCO, hire your buds, build only through the draft) that no longer works. It's tremendously frustrating, as you look at the pedigree and add Heckert and wonder why it just doesn't work. Sometimes shit gets invented as a rationalization for another season down the toilet. "Of course the guy sucks - he let his agent pick the new HC"

Of course I can see how specious my reasoning seems - had Holmgren landed RGIII I would be first in line to kiss his ass.

I don't know that the game has passed him by so much as he just doesn't give enough of a shit. He hit the lottery. He hit and he quit work. Some woulda hit it and built something with it. He seems to have gone the other way.

He and some friends are kicking it, getting paid and mailing it in. That's more and more what it feels like to me.

My opinion.

Interesting. And depressing. As jaded and cynical as I am, it's unfathomable to me that Walrus would simply steal $50M of Lerner's cash. I would hope the guy is really trying to do his best, but his ego and narrow mindedness are getting in the way.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Question- Replace Shurmur with Fox tonight. How relevant is agent issue then? How much of a data point?

See, my issue is both were available when one was chosen. It has nothing to do with clique. It has to do with what can only be described as a shitty decision (and one you were right about when it went down).

But switch 'em. Change anything?

Sub in Jon Gruden for Shurmur if ya want. Still an agent discussion here? Is it still a symptom/data point?

Valid points. Not sure Fox was on the radar at all - no WCO, D minded guy and all that. Dude did make the playoffs with Tim Tebow at QB, so I'll give him some props. An improvemnt over Shurmur, but not by a lot.

Gruden would have been a dumster fire, but far more entertaining on the sidelines and at pressers than Shurmur. Same record, but more fun.

So yes, at this point a combo of Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, and Chuck Knoll probably couldn't squeeze 8 wins outta this crew.

I am starting to wonder if the game has passed Holmgren by. That he is clutching to a blueprint (WCO, hire your buds, build only through the draft) that no longer works. It's tremendously frustrating, as you look at the pedigree and add Heckert and wonder why it just doesn't work. Sometimes shit gets invented as a rationalization for another season down the toilet. "Of course the guy sucks - he let his agent pick the new HC"

Of course I can see how specious my reasoning seems - had Holmgren landed RGIII I would be first in line to kiss his ass.

I think John Fox would've been a far superior hire FWIW. Much more into guys that are not married to a specific system, and adjust to the strength of the players, instead of players adjusting to him.

The Tebow situation was handled very well on a number of levels, for example. First of all, in season last year he found the best possible way to use the most important position on the field. But he was also wise enough to understand that was probably a poor way to go long term. This is why he and Elway came out and said Tebow was going to have to compete in am more traditional system going forward.

Anyway, this type of guy is the type of guy that's more likely to change with the game. Modern day NFL is about being ahead of the curve, this is the reason why the guy considered the dean is the first to figure things out like interchangability with running backs, the negatives associated with the punt, and working other teams for draft picks - and getting finances in order.

One is a legit head coach, one is a puppett on the strings of a guy who's just as entrenched in "his way," so it's little suprise how he's gonna turn out. Give me the guy with his own mind, who's not afraid to MF a gm if need be. Give me the guy that players respect, the leader of men.

And I'm not here to label John Fox an all-time great. Just pointint out that he has some qualities that it would behoove an NFL coach to have in 2012.

I'd be interested in hearing Shurmer's qualities - including those he brings from his past, that make him a good head coaching candidate anywhere. A guy who came in on the strength of his offenses (that were never all that strong) who, if not able or willing to make adjustments, is bringing a dinosaur of an offense.

The game is all about change and adjustments now. In a few years, teams are gonna figure out how to better defend the Gronks and Grahams of the league that are riddling match-ups from the TE position. And then something new will be developed by someone paying attention. Shurmer is likely to be another generation behind tossing soft crossing patterns and hitting mediocre backs out of the backfield.

Bottom line for me, while he doesn't make them close to good, John Fox wins more games last year. And all the other bullshit about setting up for the future - ya gotta start winning some games. That way you take some of the zombie out of that lockerroom. You gotta start buliding a culture at some point, you gotta stop every available free-agent from laughing when you call. There ain't a GD current player that gives a shit or respects what Mike Holmgren has done, let alone Pat Shurmer. Need the guy that can get respect NOW. Make adjustments NOW, and start some winning NOW. And no, you don't have to mortage the future to do it, as a condescending Holmgren would have some believe. How many last place f'ing schedule seasons have past with the Browns winning 5 f'ing games?

peeker643 wrote:I don't know that the game has passed him by so much as he just doesn't give enough of a shit. He hit the lottery. He hit and he quit work. Some woulda hit it and built something with it. He seems to have gone the other way.

He and some friends are kicking it, getting paid and mailing it in. That's more and more what it feels like to me.

My opinion.

This does FEEL right to me, but that's mostly because I'm despondent about the apparent state of the franchise and wondering where the QB comes from.

But then I ask myself "Self...What would a completely invested, balls to the wall president in Mike Holmgren steering the ship look like? Would it look any different than what we are seeing now? Would I be able to tell the difference from this side of my computer screen?"

I know it's tempting to blow everything off as a product of Holmgren & Co. being lazy cash steelahs, but the ARE doing things pretty much exactly the way they said they were going to the moment they stepped off of Wayne Huizenga's plane at Burk.

They are building through the draft and not chasing down/overpaying free agents. We might not LIKE the way they are doing it. We might be frustrated at the slow progress (if there has been any progress). And we might hate the HC choice. But, If Holmgren was sleeping on a cot in Berea for 2 hours a night and doing nothing but eat, drink, and shit Browns football 20 hours a day...I don't know how different that would look to me.

mattvan1 wrote: I am starting to wonder if the game has passed Holmgren by. That he is clutching to a blueprint (WCO, hire your buds, build only through the draft) that no longer works. It's tremendously frustrating, as you look at the pedigree and add Heckert and wonder why it just doesn't work. Sometimes shit gets invented as a rationalization for another season down the toilet. "Of course the guy sucks - he let his agent pick the new HC"

Of course I can see how specious my reasoning seems - had Holmgren landed RGIII I would be first in line to kiss his ass.

I don't know that the game has passed him by so much as he just doesn't give enough of a shit. He hit the lottery. He hit and he quit work. Some woulda hit it and built something with it. He seems to have gone the other way.

He and some friends are kicking it, getting paid and mailing it in. That's more and more what it feels like to me.

My opinion.

Interesting. And depressing. As jaded and cynical as I am, it's unfathomable to me that Walrus would simply steal $50M of Lerner's cash. I would hope the guy is really trying to do his best, but his ego and narrow mindedness are getting in the way.

Agree on that.

I think that Holmgren has WAY too big an ego to let his reputation float down the toilet just so he and his bros can party it up. They have plenty of money - they could've rented a cabin in Cabo for a couple months and done that and not had the annoying job part to worry about.

I just think Holmgren believes that he KNOWS the blueprint for success and is following said blueprint world be damned. I think that him hiring people he knows and who believe in the same blueprint as he does is consistent with that.

I think it is entirely possible that the game has passed him by.

I think that the Browns FA process the last few years is both a result of the blueprint and the fact that not a lot of guys want to play here and you have to overpay the ones that are willing.

I think the agent thing is a completely meaningless data point that is only pulled out when people want to tar and feather the guy, when frustration boils over and personal attacks are all that will satisfy. It means as much to me as they all shop at the same Giant Eagle or they all get their cars from the same dealer.

I think that trying and failing to trade up for franchise QB's - twice - might be the defining characteristic of this regime. KNOWING that you need a QB in today's NFL and KNOWING that you don't have one and TRYING to get on and FAILING... it doesn't bode well.

I also think that not firing Mangini right away was a terrible mistake and set them back maybe even more than one year.

In the end, Holmgren & Crew will be here a couple more years whether we like it or not. So I have no choice but to wait and see if maybe Mr. Arrogant can show us that his arrogance is justified while trying to keep my hissy-fits to a minimum.

peeker643 wrote:I just have a horribly difficult time believing that the game hasn't passed us by but it's passed by a guy as embedded in it and knowledgeable about it as Holmgren.

Let's agree that it's ego, arrogance and lack of flexibility with maybe some laziness (how does no one of import go watch the Baylor Pro Day?) thrown in.

Exactly because of his ego and arrogance.

"We got screwed out of drafting RG3 so I don't even wanna watch him. He's a poopy-head. Hmmph!"

And his lack of flexibility is the evidence of the game passing him by. It's easy not to see the forest through the leaves. Happens all the time with people that have been in one business for a long time.

2. This would be a similar circumstance if LBJ played for the Nuggets and had his choice to be traded to either the Knicks or the Cavs and chose the Knicks. And didn't make the choice on a nationally broadcast show.

3. The people that love Tebow love him unreasonably. They'll love him no matter what team he plays for - they care more about the person than the team. There's no way to reason with such nuts.

I, for one, am looking forward to the circus in NY next year. That place will become unraveled. Can't wait for Rex Ryan pressers. It will take us to new levels of entertainment. It may lessen the pain of pulling for the Browns.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

The Browns needed a veteran hand. A steady influence. John Fox was th right choice f Walrus didn't want to work for a living, Paddy would have come as OC - AHC and could have ben groomed as opposed to being thrown in over his head and set up to fail.

Tim Tebow is in NY to babysit and push Sanchez off the field. Sanchez' teammate don't like him. They said he's a last in / first out guy and he's distracted by the off the field crap. Say what you will about Tebow, but his work ethic is top notch. Good piece in Yahoo sports about it yesterday. He's a student of the game and works hits butt off. It's just took bad for him that he sucks. He'll probably embarrass Sanchez into working harder and maybe even show him how.

jb wrote:Late to the party, but after reading the posts, here is my $ 0.02 :

Jacksonville isn't Florida, really. It is South Georgia.

The Browns needed a veteran hand. A steady influence. John Fox was th right choice f Walrus didn't want to work for a living, Paddy would have come as OC - AHC and could have ben groomed as opposed to being thrown in over his head and set up to fail.

Tim Tebow is in NY to babysit and push Sanchez off the field. Sanchez' teammate don't like him. They said he's a last in / first out guy and he's distracted by the off the field crap. Say what you will about Tebow, but his work ethic is top notch. Good piece in Yahoo sports about it yesterday. He's a student of the game and works hits butt off. It's just took bad for him that he sucks. He'll probably embarrass Sanchez into working harder and maybe even show him how.

Ziner wrote:Cant wait to see the excuses when Sanchie gets benched for Tebowmania. Its gonna be awesome.

SD:

Tebow wins four playoff games in his first two games on the road they'll erect a stue bigger than the one on Staten island .

Sanchez has a better start than Peyton Manning in his carreer and better post season winning percentage to mannings choke artist .475 record and he's a piece of shit .

Dumb ass Browns fans forever .

SoulDawg

Sanchez had a much much better defense than Peyton had. Face it, when Sanchez is counted on to win games, he simply does not. Either he will work harder and learn from Tebow's work ethic, or he will bury his hand in the sand and Tebow will be starting by mid season.

Ziner wrote:Cant wait to see the excuses when Sanchie gets benched for Tebowmania. Its gonna be awesome.

SD:

Tebow wins four playoff games in his first two games on the road they'll erect a stue bigger than the one on Staten island .

Sanchez has a better start than Peyton Manning in his carreer and better post season winning percentage to mannings choke artist .475 record and he's a piece of shit .

Dumb ass Browns fans forever .

SoulDawg

Sanchez had a much much better defense than Peyton had. Face it, when Sanchez is counted on to win games, he simply does not. Either he will work harder and learn from Tebow's work ethic, or he will bury his hand in the sand and Tebow will be starting by mid season.

SD:

Manning lost every game when teams simply hit him , with the type of hits Mark has been taking from day one .

Sanchez made plays in those playoff games over and above his experience .

Two on the road as a rookie while taking manning down to the wire in the Colts dome for the AFC Championship ,, and then vs pissburgh at the sewere where he was handcuffed by playcallng in the first half and damn near pulled out the win forced to come from behind vs the inbred in their home in his second year .

Meanwhile Sir lancelot got bounced in first round competition and has a win vs Grossman in the Supio Bowl with an offense totally designed around him and for him with number one picks and high darft choices augmented to the offfense year after year .

RAC was the architecht who designed that defense that bounced out the Colts and allowed the Pats to win those rings .

Guess who Mr wunderful has to beat twice as a result of becoming a Bronco .

Based almost solely on the fact that he took them to the AFC Championship Game in his first two years in the league, they had to resign Sanchez. Yet he's the type of guy that needs pushed. With God himself now breathing down his neck, he'll have no choice but to work harder and with more urgency. I also think people underestimate what Tebow brings to the running game.

I'm not saying they're gonna win the Super Bowl. But I do think they'll get much better overall play from the QB position this year.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Based almost solely on the fact that he took them to the AFC Championship Game in his first two years in the league, they had to resign Sanchez. Yet he's the type of guy that needs pushed. With God himself now breathing down his neck, he'll have no choice but to work harder and with more urgency. I also think people underestimate what Tebow brings to the running game.

I'm not saying they're gonna win the Super Bowl. But I do think they'll get much better overall play from the QB position this year.

What is really interesting to me is the Jets are purposefully going against the CW of "must have a franchise/elite QB". They are going to try and get it done with bluster and bravado and solid D and special teams and average to below average QB play.

I think they're nuts, but it will be fun to watch.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Hey Tim, welcome to the CityWe're really glad to have youBut you better not play shitty!No fumbles on the option playand you'll stick around.You should thank The Lord above they didn't trade youto the Cleveland Browns!

Say, Namath and Sanchez, have you seen them yetOh but they're so pissed off...T-T-T-Timmy and the Jets.You're style's so weird but it's wonderfulSeeing you drop to one knee.I hear you like The Who, and Jesus tooJust remember you're not here to sight see...T-T-T-Timmy and the Jets.

"Well....I suppose if this were any other team, I might find the whole thing funny. In fact if this were any other team I might just fuckin'DIElaughin'!!!"

Hey Tim, welcome to the CityWe're really glad to have youBut you better not play shitty!No fumbles on the option playand you'll stick around.You should thank The Lord above they didn't trade youto the Cleveland Browns!

"Did you hear Peyton Manning signed with the Denver Broncos? When Tim Tebow heard the news, he dropped to one knee and prayed, 'Don't trade me to Cleveland!' "

-- Jay Leno, in his "Tonight Show" monologue last Tuesday.

On behalf of Cleveland, I'd like to thank God for granting Tim's wish.