I bought this bird from a breeder called Elmar Steyn from Kimberly in South Africa as a "Violet Opaline" and was not happy with the color when the bird arrived from Kimberly.

I was assured when I called him about this that the bird was very defiantly a Violet Opaline, and that the bird would color up correctly with time.

So here we are 2 years down the line and I am still not convinced this is a Violet Opaline so i would like you all to please give me your thoughts on the color of this bird, especial you Madas Please ?

prodigy wrote:I bought this bird from a breeder called Elmar Steyn from Kimberly in South Africa as a "Violet Opaline" and was not happy with the color when the bird arrived from Kimberly.

I was assured when I called him about this that the bird was very defiantly a Violet Opaline, and that the bird would color up correctly with time.

So here we are 2 years down the line and I am still not convinced this is a Violet Opaline so i would like you all to please give me your thoughts on the color of this bird, especial you Madas Please ?

The bird at 1 years old

2 years old after molt

regards,

Peter

Judging from the pics and the head this bird is a opaline Violet blue but with bad wing markings.

madas wrote:Judging from the pics and the head this bird is a opaline Violet blue but with bad wing markings.

madas

Sorry Madas, but I don't agree. From the pics it looks like a cobalt opaline. I suppose that is because I have the advantage of having seen the bird as well. And I think that also plays a role in the bad wing markings. I don't know why it is, but cobalt opalines doesn't show opaline nicely.

That is if it is the 2011 bird that I think it is. There is a bit of a story there, but a public forum isn't the place for such. That would also make the bird a rising 1 year old (and a couple of months) and not a 2 year old.

Two other things:

1) The violet turquoise opaline to me appears rather dark. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be violet cobalt turq opaline. I have often seen that turquoise changes violet that it somehow appears more cobalt-ish. Yet, the non parblue violets you breed from those birds are lovely specimens.

2) The bird between the violet turq opaline and blue pied has a remarkably light tail. I bet that bird is a split.

I know Elmar very well and saw his original European imported violet blue/opaline cock (very purple bird) about 7 years ago. I also don't think it it is a violet blue opaline. I don't know how your filters work but use them to try and proof my statement.

If you look at the filtered image of the bird you will notice in the tail a weird sort of purple, this is a definite indicator that that bird is deep and cobalt.

Similar to the "Nico Viiolets" that have caused such a stir in South Africa.

As you will know some of the Nico Violets are in fact violet cobalt deeps, the only way to explain the breading results that you and I, Jasper, Willem and a few other have who have seen with A few of Nico's birds.

The natural tendency with South African breeders was always to add cobalt to darken the Violet, hence all the confusion with the Nico bird's.

Obviously my issue is that at the time i payed for a violet opaline male and not a cobalt or a cobalt deep at half the price of a violet, obviously leaving a little bit of a bitter taste in my mouth, especially when a violet opaline is what i need for my red IRN breeding program as you can appreciate also after the ever illusive red IRN.

prodigy wrote:Also working on the assumptions at hand, please replace the word "grey" in the pictures below with "deep" and we will see what the various outcomes of Elmar's pairings.

Or replace "grey" with "dark" for an alternative, and possibly more likely scenario. And if the cock is actually a cobalt violet deep / opaline, then those outcomes will become much more mixed up. Add opaline that dilutes the tail, and we move into uncertain territory.

Peter, for interest sake, can you run this one through the filters, please?

When I saw Elmar's violet blue/opaline cock I thought it was df violet blue/opaline. He imported it through Antonie and it was in the same shipment I received my first blue turq dilute/opaline cock and grey opaline/dilute hen. It was at Dr Chris Kingley's station. I phoned Elmar and told him he will be a very proud owner. Little did I know that most imported "European violet blue" birds will later proof to be a combination of deep, cobalt and violet and that a huge variety of phenotype's emerge from these purple birds.

You must remember at that stage little information was available about deep in IRN's. I visited Elmar when he bred his first violet blue opaline's and saw the variety in colour. I thought the lighter phenotype was cobalt but then realized it was lighter then cobalt and more shiny.

I first saw a Nico Theunissen “violet blue” when we discussed it at one of our IRN AGM in Bloenfontein. The owner of the bird claimed that it was violet and most of us said it was a cobalt, but lighter and more shiny.

The rest is history and if you read Deon’s new guide you will see what our opinion is. All credit must go to Nico Theunissen for establishing the deep IRN mutation in South Africa. I was fortunate to buy some of Nico’s deep IRN’s through Jasper when Nico sold his collection.

Your statement that some of Nico's birds are deep dblue violet must stil be proofed. I haven't seen any bird in Nico's collection that match the purple phenotype of some of the imported European "violet blue" birds. (deep dblue violet).

All credit must go to Nico Theunissen for establishing the deep IRN mutation in South Africa.

As the person who originally came up with and then named the 'Australian Cobalt', Deep Blue, I have an interest in what all these other birds now bearing the name Deep are in fact. I have seen on this forum several 'Deep' birds which are not what I named Deep. I have yet to see anyone produce an image of a DF Deep Blue to compare with the images I have posted of the full expression of Deep as in the DF Deep Blue IRN. It seems everyone with parblues and incomplete dominant mutations don't seem to bother with breeding the homozygous birds yet make many conclusions about them. Having known about the 'Australian Cobalt' for the several years it took me to find someone who had bred the DF, only then could I conclude that this was in fact a mutation that was different to the Violet and Dark Blues. I How can anything be concluded about a mutation without firstly having the homozygous phenotype in the hand? If Nico did in fact establish the Deep Blue in SA he most surely must have images of the DF Deep Blue? How about some images please and with comparison birds along side?

most imported "European violet blue" birds will later proof to be a combination of deep, cobalt and violet and that a huge variety of phenotype's emerge from these purple birds.

And I challenge anyone to accurately identify most of them from 10 feet away other than possibly the number of structural genes they might possess.

I understand your point of view. As mentioned in my email I only very recently bought SA deep birds. Nico claimed that they were violet because he couldn’t produce a mauve phenotype from pairing 2 sf deep birds. Nico is a very sick man with heart problems. I doubt if he own any pictures of df deep birds. What I can confirm is that I didn’t see any mauve birds in his collection when I visited him in February 2012.

From what I notice in the green series a deep bird is between green and dark but with lighter center tail feathers. Deep blue birds are lighter then dark blue especially when they are in direct sunlight.

I also bought 0,1 SL Edged deep blue and 0,1 Deep blue clearheaded fallow that were send to my friend Hugo Niebuhr who owns original imported American violet blue and df American violet blue birds since 2004. He paired a sf violet blue and SL edged sf deep blue. I received my share of the babies this afternoon and will take pictures to post. According to Hugo who has bred df American violet blue the sf violet sf deep blue compared well with a df violet but as he said it is even darker and brighter in phenotype compared a df violet blue.

Peter, this image has been posted before. It definately has at least one Violet factor, probably two, and looks to me like it has at least a 3rd structural mutation, either Dark or what I call Deep. 4 structural mutations in that bird would not surprise me at all. Deon posted images of a melanistic mutation on a Violet type bird which were as dark as this one.

trabots wrote:Peter, this image has been posted before. It definately has at least one Violet factor, probably two, and looks to me like it has at least a 3rd structural mutation, either Dark or what I call Deep. 4 structural mutations in that bird would not surprise me at all.

prodigy wrote:Thanks a million for the input, what we have seen in the breeding results point to the bird being a DF violet cobalt Deep.

Guys, my apologies for repeatedly being stubborn about these structural mutations, but it is my believe that you are going in the wrong direction. Repeated addition of structural mutations will saturate the colour towards mauve. For your perusal and thoughts, a SF violet cock and some of his offspring from with a SF dark SF violet hen (all birds from the american violet line, to be clear and not confused with other 'violets'). The bird that Peter posted is still a long way off from the SF dark DF violet chick in these pictures. My guess is that bird is SF dark SF violet, of SF dark SF violet SF deep.

Like Willy has mentioned in the past, we can talk about pictures all we like, but compare main tail feathers (real ones!) to be certain. Anybody who wants to compare these, are more than welcome to message me. My motivation with this is not to see if yours are darker than mine, or mine darker than yours, but to SORT OUT this mess that is structural mutations in IRN. The tools exist, they just need to be utilised.

You must read carefully. I said it is a purple bird and in my opinion can be a combination of deep, dark and violet. I saw some other babies from his pair that were violet blue opaline. I ddn't say it is just a deep blue/opaline.

My experience is with what I called Deep Blue, I have no experience and therefore knowledge of any other so called 'Deeps'. I would certainly like to learn more about 'Azures' and SA 'Deeps' and for that we need good quality images of the DF birds. Until then it is all just speculation.

Thanks for the reply Peter, but I am not looking for a calculator, but an image processing software to apply the above filters, so that you can take a pick of the bird in the aviary, apply the filter and see the results right there, so far Photo Studio is the closest I can get, but the hue/saturation range is not large enough

Hi Camarge,I found an app in the apple App Store call Lab photo HD. It allows you to apply the adjustments to hue and saturation as has been done on these photos. The colour is not as rich however you can apply them as soon as you take a photo on your phone or tablet device. I would expect that it is also available on the android market. It may be what you are after.Cheers,Kappa