because he is singing about his feelings for his parents in a very direct way, he is telling us in no uncertain terms what his feelings are about them, also his feelings about other people who were closest to him, also his feelings about people he admired like Elvis & Dylan & Jesus, I can think of no other album where the artist lays out his feelings about the people in his life so plainly & directly.

My point is: how do you know these feelings are genuine?

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I dont see how an album like McCartney is giving out a personal vibe at all, all he tells us is that he loves Linda, and he's amazed by it.....well surprise surprise, Id never have guessed that Paul !!When he sings about Kreena Kroori (spelling) what is he saying about them ? that he loves them ? or hates them ? he sings a song about an unknown boy called Ted, who exactly is Ted ? theres a track called Junk, how is that personal ? does he like walking around rubbish dumps looking at stuff ? what is Glasses all about ? I dont see much about this album that is personal except he thinks Linda is lovely....thats all he's telling us

John is singing 'Oh Yoko' and 'I just believe in me, Yoko and me and that's reality'. Paul is singing Maybe I'm Amazed.Like John, we don't know what's going on in Paul's mind to produce an album like he did. Like POB, McCartney is an artistic product and therefore a personal thing.

Logged

nimrod

Im pretty sure Johns feelings were genuine as he was investing months and months of his life in primal Therapy with Dr Janov, Id say to move to LA and live more or less in the clinic for several months means that you are pretty genuine about it.The whole album is based around his experiences with primal Therapy and the deep rooted demons that it (the course) unleashes.

I dont understand why you and Todd have some sort of problem with this. Its like your both constantly trying to undermine everything about John & his music.

Its like your both constantly trying to undermine everything about John & his music.

If you read my two most recent reviews then you know that's not true.

I'm just trying to point out that because John was clearer in the things he was singing about, a lot of fans regard his output as 'honest' or 'personal'. To me, Johns output is no more honest or personal than that of any other artist, as I believe that every artist (singer, painter, sculpturer or whatever) is trying to put something personal into his or her artistic product. Whether you like it or not, to me, McCartney or Ram or even Press To Play is no more or less honest and personal than POB or Imagine.

John had been busy with this primal scream thing and it shows on the album he was making at that time. I'd rather wish he had done a laugh therapy, but that's just me. Paul was clearing up his mind in Scotland at that time, George was getting himself into to Indian music and philosophy in the early 70s. In one way or another, the things they were experiencing at that time, is always coming back into the music they were making. One can like that music or not. I don't like everything Paul or George did at that time and I don't like everything John did. I'm judging John's music here because that is what I can do and it's a very personal judgment.

Is a work of Rembrandt or Van Gogh more honest or personal than that of Picasso? Is a novel written by E.L. James more honest or personal than that of Dostowjevski?

nimrod

John had been busy with this primal scream thing and it shows on the album he was making at that time. I'd rather wish he had done a laugh therapy, but that's just me.

For me that one flippant remark says you have very litle sympathy for him or interest in what he was going through in his post Beatle life, like Todd saying earlier that he was a damn good actor implying that he wrote this album for the publics sympathy....I too wish John had been happier in his life but he wasnt, he had issues, Im a huge Beatle fan and I hate the thought of any of my heroes being unhappy or traumatised, they gave me so much when I was young and growing up eagerly awaiting their next move, The Beatles are entwined in the fabric of my growing up years and I frequently think how lucky I was to grow up in the Beatle era...I owe The Beatles an awful lot, Im glad John did PT, and Im glad it gave him some closure on his childhood trauma.I would have thought it was as plain as the nose on your face that this is an immensly personal album and that John was baring his soul, I dont agree that its not and I dont agree that John was acting.

Oh come on, Kevin. I'm not saying he's acting nor am I saying I have little interest in what John was going through. Please don't put words in my mouth. John was going through the primal scream thing and it shows on the album he was making at that time. To me and me personally, that is a dark and sinister album. That's my opinion and I'm not saying anything about having interest in what John was doing or not. Personally (once again) I usually like albums with a light note better and maybe that would have happened if John had taken a laugh therapy instead.

I'm not stating that POB is NOT a personal album. I agree it is. I am NOT saying that John is acting, that is just not what I'm saying. I believe the way he expresses himself on this album is as much as personal and/or honest as any other artist output. But what we have to bare in mind is that an artistic product, POB included, is always a way in which an artist expresses him/herself. The true inner feelings stay inside. Every recording artist is baring his/her soul on any album that he/she produces. The fact that a lot of people recognize feelings that John is showing on this album, is wonderful but it doesn't make it a great album per se.

By the way, I can only truely see the nose on my face in the mirror. So probably it all isn't as plain as you state it is.

Absolutely; it's plain to see and this isn't motivating for other members.

Snoopy

So if somebody doesnt agree or hold a John Lennon effort in high regard, it is bringing other members down? Everybody agreeing is the only healthy conversation around here? Please. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

One thing that blows my mind is that the majority of Beatle fans and the majority of the public grasp onto all of this depression and negativity. Is that normal human behavior? I've never seen the appeal. I guess I keep repeating myself and I need to stop, but I figure that John and I never saw eye to eye in how we feel and what we believe in. Thats never going to change and i'm never going to like this album. I reckon its time for me to move onto Imagine.

nimrod

So if somebody doesnt agree or hold a John Lennon effort in high regard, it is bringing other members down? Everybody agreeing is the only healthy conversation around here? Please. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

Your missing the point again Todd, It doesnt matter whether you like POB, I dont like a lot of Pauls solo albums...but I still love the guy immensely for the pleasure he has given me over my lifetime, I dont like Ringo's album's or Cloud Nine, but I still love the guys who made them....why ? because Im primarily a Beatle fan, I will always love all 4 guys...........with you and Cor its different, you not only dont like Johns albums or solo stuff (nothing wrong with that) but you rubbish his whole persona, you call him an actor, you infer that he was a person who was only interested in public sympathy, you attack him at every opportunity, youve stated before that you think 95% of his music is sh*t, I dont know why you hate the guy so much, is it because he says he doesnt believe in Jesus ? or that God is a concept ? I know you are a religious man.I believe in God too but I dont dislike someone who is an atheist or non believer, they are entitled to their beliefs imo. (just as I am)I knew the way Johns microscopes would go and I wasnt looking forward to these threads, each album would be rubbished and Johns persona would come into question........I think these solo album threads should just adhere to what we think of the music on them, not use them as a tool to berate John Lennon and make out he was a complete hypocrite and totally horrible guy who duped his fans by using his acting talent. Its quite insulting to us fans of The Beatles.The fact is John gave pleasure to millions & millions of people the world over, how about giving him some credit for once for his achievements.

I must say Todd I dont like the remark youve made to Snoopy, inviting her to leave the forum, its nasty and uncalled for. I hope Snoopy doesnt leave she's entitled to her opinion, and as far as I can see she hasnt personally insulted anyone (as you have done to various members in the past)..........and Cor I would have thought you would care if members like snoopy post or dont post, isnt it admins job to encourage members to comment and be active ?

anyway, to cap things off, by all means criticize the music on POB or Imagine or Sometime in NYC no-one says you have to like them, but can we have less of the 'I hate John' campaign, we all know how you feel about him, you dont have to keep telling us.

I hope you wont ask me to leave the forum Todd, I still like you, I havent fallen out with you but I have to complain about the way you & Cor are using these threads.

Today, for me, is a bit reminiscent of how I spent my day on December 8, 1980. Both days were spent in the operating room. In 1980, when I was through in the OR, I was still on duty until the following morning. After a late supper, a number of us gathered in the doctors' lounge to watch TV. And then we heard the news.

I was doing my residency training at The Mount Sinai Medical Center which is on the eastern boarder of Central Park. We would often take our lunch out to the park on nice days. It wasn't unusual to see John and Yoko out for a walk in the park. I remember one late summer day in 1980 sitting on the lawn having lunch with a group of four or five other doctors when I noticed John and Yoko walking toward us on the path. I shyly waved to them as they drew near. John looked at me and said "hello doctor" as he passed.

On that awful night, those of us on duty could not leave the hospital grounds. So we went up on the roof of one of the taller buildings in the complex. From there, we could see across Central Park. The area of the park by the Dakota was lit by TV crew lights. We could hear the crowd that gathered singing Beatles songs. This went on all night. Those of us on the roof spent the night in quiet introspection.

I finished my training at that hospital two years later. I never took lunch in the park again. And I've avoided the west side of the park where John lived since then.

So, as I mentioned in another thread, my perspective of The Beatles is a bit different from some others' here on this Forum. It's hard to believe, but in a few weeks I will have been on this Forum for seven years. In that time, I've been impressed with the dedication displayed by Forum members to The Beatles. Many came to hear of them after they made their mark on the 1960s. Likewise, I've been impressed by the loyalty to individual members of the band shown by some Forum members. And I've read of members' love of an individual Beatle taken to extremes. I'm awed by that. I truly am. What an impact they've had on the world!

It's with that spirit that I would love to see discussion ensue on this Forum. The Beatles themselves have been self-critical. We can certainly be critical of them...and not critical of each other.

Your missing the point again Todd, It doesnt matter whether you like POB, I dont like a lot of Pauls solo albums...but I still love the guy immensely for the pleasure he has given me over my lifetime, I dont like Ringo's album's or Cloud Nine, but I still love the guys who made them....why ? because Im primarily a Beatle fan, I will always love all 4 guys...........with you and Cor its different, you not only dont like Johns albums or solo stuff (nothing wrong with that) but you rubbish his whole persona, you call him an actor, you infer that he was a person who was only interested in public sympathy, you attack him at every opportunity, youve stated before that you think 95% of his music is sh*t, I dont know why you hate the guy so much, is it because he says he doesnt believe in Jesus ? or that God is a concept ? I know you are a religious man.I believe in God too but I dont dislike someone who is an atheist or non believer, they are entitled to their beliefs imo. (just as I am)I knew the way Johns microscopes would go and I wasnt looking forward to these threads, each album would be rubbished and Johns persona would come into question........I think these solo album threads should just adhere to what we think of the music on them, not use them as a tool to berate John Lennon and make out he was a complete hypocrite and totally horrible guy who duped his fans by using his acting talent. Its quite insulting to us fans of The Beatles.The fact is John gave pleasure to millions & millions of people the world over, how about giving him some credit for once for his achievements.

I must say Todd I dont like the remark youve made to Snoopy, inviting her to leave the forum, its nasty and uncalled for. I hope Snoopy doesnt leave she's entitled to her opinion, and as far as I can see she hasnt personally insulted anyone (as you have done to various members in the past)..........and Cor I would have thought you would care if members like snoopy post or dont post, isnt it admins job to encourage members to comment and be active ?

anyway, to cap things off, by all means criticize the music on POB or Imagine or Sometime in NYC no-one says you have to like them, but can we have less of the 'I hate John' campaign, we all know how you feel about him, you dont have to keep telling us.

I hope you wont ask me to leave the forum Todd, I still like you, I havent fallen out with you but I have to complain about the way you & Cor are using these threads.

Alright that's it. I'm off for a while.I am not using the John microscope threads in the way you are saying I do. I am critical towards his solo output as I have been towards Paul's solo output before.I have never stated that John was an hypocrite, nor have I stated that he was a horrible guy. Somehow you say that I did that and am therefore not a true Beatles fans. ('it's insulting to us Beatlesfans') So, because I'm critical towards something a Beatle did, I'm not a true fan? It's plain ridiculous.

This place has always been a place that was open for discussion, but it obviously isn't any longer.

nimrod

I think John wanted us to think he was that screwed up and emotionally distraught most of the time. He lays it on so thick that I cant take him seriously

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Here we have a 30 year old man that has very few to no memories of his mother and father and he's coming across as being so mentally tore up about it that he can barely handle it. Seriously? I dont believe him.

I'm typing this from my phone so I can't be bothered with quotes and so forth. Anyways kev I like you a lot and your a highly respected member so I'm sorry that I offended you. I openly admitted earlier in this thread that my feelings toward John as a person was influencing my opinion of the music and that was something I needed to work on. I will say though that it seems your love for the guy is having the same effect on you at times. I didn't know there were rules that if you liked a band like the Beatles that you had to like every member. I respect john for what he did for us with some of his music. Heck he wrote some masterpieces that will live forever in popular music. He also wrote some crap. I happen to think most of his solo stuff is crap. Am I not entitled to that. It boggles my mind that you and Kevin would use POB as the anthem record for solo Beatle efforts. It's a poorly produced tense negative album and that's what you feel Beatle fans should use as the benchmark. I can't stand behind that. RAM is a happy frolicking record that actually sounds like a Beatles record but no votes for that. I also admit that I like more and more of johns solo stuff the further along we go. I can't help how I feel and what I like

For my remarks to snoopy I have nothing against her and I wasn't asking her to leave the forum. I was suggesting to leave the thread if it bothered her so much. I guess I wasn't clear enough. Sorry. I won't apologize for me remark though. She basically said that if people didn't feel the way she did then it was wrong or uncomfortable. I didn't know we all had to agree on everything to get along. If she felt that I was personally attacking John the I will apologize for that. Sorry. I still feel a lot of POB was BS and John wrote it for shock value. It obviously worked as fans ate it up. Anyways when I review Imagine it's probably not going to be real positive. If that's such an issue feel free to ban me or whatever you feel the need to do

hi guys..Just want to say that from my humble point of view liking Beatle music doesn't mean I have to like The Beatles as people. I don't. John Lennon has always struck me as a particularly ugly human being. McCartney doesn't come up smelling of roses either. Harrison was terribly flawed.But I'll say again none of us would look that good (I assume) if we were put under such intense scrutiny.But this makes them interesting.I don't have any "spiritual" connection with them as people or their music. They were a pop/rock band that wrote great music and are very interesting. That's it. I am interested in them in the same was as I'm interested in Ghengis Khan or Hitler. I could talk for hours about Adolf but I wouldn't have him around for dinner.John Lennon could be a self obbsessed ar*se. McCartney could be a callous cold hearted manipulator. I say this not to be a troll or upset people. I say it to defend my position that I don't have to like them as people. I adore their music. I find them very interesting. Don't think I'd want them as friends.And I thing this forum is all the more stronger because we're not all involved in some love fest.All the power to you that do.But expect some discussion.

Well said as usual Kevin. I cant help but feel that i've made a mess of this whole thread, because I have a hard time differentiating John as the person and the music he created. I feel that I really havent said what I want to. I cant find the words for some reason. Maybe i'm just too dumb. Might as well call me a hypocrite because I guess I am. I'm capping on John for being such a negative person and I havent taken the time to look in a mirror lately. I'm a very negative person too, as you all know. What i'm really trying to say I suppose is that its hard for me to describe these songs without using John as a person for an example. Its still not coming out right. Oh well.

The longer I absorbed the Beatles and the people they were, the harder it was to like John Lennon in my opinion. Everybody's aware of his shortcomings, but I get disgusted at the public when they swoon over him and declare him such a peace activist and a spokesperson for love. Thats where it comes from when I say he puts on an act. People and fans dont want to hear about the bad crap. All they want to hear is that he wrote 'Give Peace A Chance' and he's some adorable, loving figure. Why cant we accept both? We can, but its hard for me when most people I know think so highly of the guy. I remember when 'Double Fantasy' came out and my friend and I were ecstatic over it. He seemed to shake the funk that was always bringing him down. Just like he wrote, he started over and it sounded great. He was finally happy and content and it showed. The album was well produced and the songs were wonderful. I've said it more then once that if he got rid of Yucko's crap and added his 'Milk and Honey' output, that would have been one of the greatest albums ever written and easily the best solo effort.

nimrod

hi guys..Just want to say that from my humble point of view liking Beatle music doesn't mean I have to like The Beatles as people.

I think thats fair enough to say, we now know that George was a womaniser and unfaithful to his wife (as she stated in the recent documentary)..........John had flaws for sure, Ive never denied that, and Im not some adoring swooning fan who pretends they were all angels (they wernt) they were your average working class lads from a scruffy working class city.

I think what has annoyed me most on this thread particularly is the notion that I (along with millions of others) have been totally duped by John Lennon, that he was a phoney, a liar who was acting when he did primal therapy and wrote the album to describe his experiences, it seems that certain people on the forum 'know' this for sure and us poor adoring idiots go and believe all that Lennon tripe, it makes me feel like some hopelessly besotted Lennon whore because when I hear the opening bars of 'Remember' and his voice singing the opening line it excites me and I want to hear more.

John was no angel, Ive said it before, he could be a cruel bastard (one of the reasons he undertook primal therapy)....but to be told he was basically just a salesman doing his job (which usually involves lying & acting) when he wrote and made POB, well I just cant accept that..........Ive heard loads of people say they think its a crap album, I can accept that after all music is subjective, but when someone says it wasnt a genuine effort to convey theyre experiences of PT theyre just speculating and attacking the guys whole persona.

I feel these whole Lennon microscope threads have been basically an excuse to make out that John was just sh*te post Beatles and basically not worth the tape they were recorded onto.

Anyway, I seem to be batting alone here and as Cor insinuates I am stifling the open discussion that used to take place on the forum with my remarks so I will back of these microscope threads and expostulate no further.