Re: HD DTA coming out?

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My area lists an HD DTA on the rate card (actual unit is not available) but it specifies that it is for limted basic only. It would seem that the HD DTA is targeted at allowing the encryption of the local HD channels.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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I am going to put in my 2 cents here. DTA's are for older tube type tv's to be able to get channels after the digital transition. If your trying to use them on newer hdtv's or digital tv's your wasting your time. YOur trying to use a technololgy to get something for free that it is not meant for. IF you pay the 10 dollars a month all your problems are solved and you get many more channels. The dta's are inferior boxes that are forced on cable providers to give those who have OLD tv sets a channel. They are and never were meant to substitute for a real cable box. If you choose to use these free inferior boxes on newer tv's your going to run into issues as posted by many others onthe forum. Your better off getting an HD antenna if you want to watch your local channels in HD. The digital transition that was forced from the Govt only applies to local channels. Your going to waste a lot of time with inferior equipment that is given to you for free if you don't pay for the minimum box Thats my opinion.

more info. YOu can always get a free A/b switch from comcast and get an antenna to get over the air hd and switch between them both. That is a lot of work though rather than paying that 10 bucks a month.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

rog286713 wrote:

more info. YOu can always get a free A/b switch from comcast and get an antenna to get over the air hd and switch between them both. That is a lot of work though rather than paying that 10 bucks a month.

That is not an option for those who live in an apartment or condo that do not allow outdoor antennas and an indoor antenna cannot get a usable signal.

As for "DTA's are for older tube type tv's", the subject of this conversation is "HD DTA coming out?". HD DTAs are for HDTVs.

If, as halfband posted, HD DTAs are for limited basic only, to allow the encryption of local HD channels, then HD DTAs for a fee are part of the world of more revenue for Comcast.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Comcast has to carry unencrypted HD local channels. When they switched to using the DTA it effectively made it impossible for people to watch these unencrypted HD local channels unless they used an A/B switch. My feeling about this is that Comcast does not want to run afoul of regulators because they had to promise to keep the local HD channels unencrypted in exchange for the right to encrypt everything else.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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To Rog ...who said rent the 10 buck hd box and problems solved. Not when all the equip cisco in my area is inferior and runs like junk. My neighbors cant get a box (hd converter box) that lasts more then a month, I had a cisco box traded multiple times. I refuse to use more then the free one till they up the quality of thier equipment.

I cant cont' lost time at work to trade boxes its rediculous and a few times got charged (in error I hope.)

Plus ten bucks a month may not sound like much to you but to some its 120 bucks a year they can use to live on.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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Comcast is asking the FCC for approval to encrypt ALL channels (including local channels) so the use of a DTA or cable box will be mandatory. The only feature I wish these HD DTA boxes would have is an analog audio output so it would be compatible with the millions of HD sets that have a DVI input.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

You are correct about DVI but since the HD DTA does not have an analog audio output you would get a HD picture without sound. The only option would be buying a HDMI switch from a company such a Monoprice that has a analog audio output so the sound can be input to the set which as a DVI input.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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The percentage of HDTV's still in operation with DVI is small since HDMI came out in 2004 or so, the majority of HDTV's were bought after HDMI came out. There were not that many DVI sets sold compared to HDMI, and many are already in the landfill.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Granted it is small compared to HDMI but I would say their were several million TV sets that were produced with DVI inputs and I would say over half are still in service. These sets would now primarily be the secondary sets that would be the prime candidates for a HD DTA rather than a HD STB.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

From what I understand these HD DTAs will receive the same channels as a regular HD set top box and it will even have a program guide. The only thing these HD DTAs cannot do is On Demand. From what I have read on the AVS forum these boxes should start being available mid year. I would expect these HD DTAs to replace the current DTA boxes. Comcast also wants to encrypt all channels so even if you have a set with a QAM tuner which only receives the basic channels you will still need a DTA box.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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I'm not sure if the law or FCC rules allow them to encrypt "must carry" local/basic channels. It's only channels that aren't also broadcast OTA or that are local that cable companies can (and usually do) encrypt, from what I understand. Thus the whole point of a DTA is to be able to view these non-broadcast, non-basic, non-local, encrypted channels that cannot be viewed on most TVs with a direct cable connection, e.g. CNN, ESPN, Fox, etc.

And my guess is that the only meaningful difference between HD-DTA and SD-DTA (the latter being the only DTA's currently available) is that the former will also carry HD versions of channels available on the latter in SD, in addition to all the SD channels available on the latter. I.e. the HD-DTA's will carry the exact same channels that you currently get with an SD-DTA, all of them in SD, and some of them HD as well (namely, those that are available in HD).

It would also make sense to enable HD-DTA's to be able to tune channels higher than 99, which SD-DTA's are limited to. Might as well, since the extra cost would be minimal and it would allow people to subscribe to and view higher-tier channels.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

BikeRider64 wrote:

Comcast's is here in Seattle. Actually, they go over 99, but for only a handful of channels.

For me in Colorado, that Handful would be around 40 (all channels included in Digital Basic, except BBC America), that are above channel 99.. Still looking for an explanation on why BBC America 162 doesn't work on my DTAs..

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Well, whatever the number, it wasn't enough, and it was all low-quality SD fed through a coax connection. Not only wasn't I getting many of the channels I was paying for, the ones I was getting were all in SD. So I junked the DTA's (well not literally, they're in fine shape back in their boxes) and got a Ceton InfinityTV TV tuner card for my PC, and can tune nearly everything in HD. I hope for your and others' sake, though, that these new HD-DTAs let you view all the channels you're paying for.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Bike and others,

Skipping Comcast DTA's will stop working when comcast finishes 'project calvery' an 'upgrade' to thier systems that will encrypt all channels, including basic. You will then NEED to have a comcast box of some sort. the current DTA's comcast offerst to basic subscribers are true DTAs you can read all about the issues this causes for the user here :

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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I'm not exactly sure what actual issues this will address for Comcast.

While I can see them compressing unencrypted channels in order to save on bandwidth, and in so doing requiring the use of some sort of STB, simply encrypting unencrypted channels will not free up bandwidth.

Nor do I believe that there's a serious service theft issue, since it's a major undertaking to do so between apartments let alone houses, and within a house or unit my understanding is that FCC rules allow you to split your signal and connect as many sets directly w/o an STB so long as it doesn't degrade service upstream or otherwise cause damage to Comcast or other customers' equipment.

Unless there's something I'm not understanding here, it seems to me that Comcast and other carriers simply want to be able to charge extra for equipment by requiring people to use them, even if it means rendering the tuner in every digital TV in existance w/o a CableCard slot useless and obsolete for cable usage, like the tuner in every analog set is now.

And the FCC is allowing this w/o a serious (if any) public comment period? Is that even legal?

P.S. It just occured to me after posting this that there are at least 2 situations where this actually makes sense.

One, people who effectively abuse cable companies' "vacation disconnect" option whereby your STBs are disabled and you get charged nothing when you're away on vacation (so long as it's 30 days or more) but can still view basic, unencrypted cable through a direct hookup (that you're not paying for, effectively).

And two, people who don't subscribe to cable and thus aren't supposed to get it, but can still view basic, unencrypted channels if there's a cable coming into their home through a direct connection.

I imagine that in these tough economic times, a lot more people are resorting to one or the other to "save" on cable service.

Cable companies can address both situations by placing a blocking device upstream from each home that fits either situation, but that can be expensive since it requires a service visit to every home. So I can see how requiring the use of an addressable STB for even basic and unencrypted channels makes sense for cable companies, even if it's a pain for customers who pay for cable and aren't stealing service and just watch basic cable or want to hook up additional set just for basic channels.

It will also backfire as most people who are effectively stealing cable aren't going to start paying for it just to get an STB, and those who are paying for basic cable will resent having to attach a box and maybe pay extra for it, and the extra revenue won't amount to all that much, compared to the bad feelings that it will generate among customers who are increasingly abandoning cable for streaming video anyway.

This is like slide rule makers doubling their prices to make up for revenue lost to calculators.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

BikeRider64 wrote:

Unless there's something I'm not understanding here, it seems to me that Comcast and other carriers simply want to be able to charge extra for equipment by requiring people to use them, even if it means rendering the tuner in every digital TV in existance w/o a CableCard slot useless and obsolete for cable usage, like the tuner in every analog set is now.

And the FCC is allowing this w/o a serious (if any) public comment period? Is that even legal?

Re: HD DTA coming out?

What does this mean? To me (I have no legal expertise) the FCC has rolled over on the Comcast request because Comcast said it was a "good" thing? How do I comment to the FCC that this is not a good thing and continues to limit what the customer gets from their service provider???

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Thanks, email sent to Michael, concerning removing analog for local channels (at the time of the digital transition for local stations Comcast said there cable users would not have to change anything) and now the encryption of those local channels (rendering QAM tuners useless for those same local channels).

Re: HD DTA coming out?

I tried emailing a comment to the FCC and they told me the only way to do it is by submitting a filing. It's not that hard to do but the actual comment must be an attachment in one of the approved formats (.pdf, .doc plus possibly a few more).

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Thanks, my filing:

Recently Comcast replaced all the analog channels (local stations plus a few others) with digital channels. This move made somewhat useless my VCR and DVD recorders (which have analog tuners and are programmable), as I can no longer set up a series of different channels to record in the evening when I'm at work or asleep. This is because even though Comcast provides DTAs, these units are not programmable (their channels must be manually changed).

Now we are being advised that Comcast is in the process of encrypting these basic channels,making useless my HDTV with a (QAM) digital tuner for those basic channels (SD and HD). Contraryto what Comcast is saying there is a lot of electronic equipment in use by customers that haveQAM tuners (but do not have ‘Cable Cards’, I personally have 5 such tuners), that would berendered useless by encrypting the limited basic (local channels on Comcast cable). It shouldalso be noted that these QAM tuners are still being sold and would likewise be useless on an encryptedComcast cable system. The only valid reason I have heard is that a move like this would preventcable theft (of which I have not seen any verifiable data on), yet I see many paying cable customerbeing inconvenienced (at best) and losing basic service (at the other end). This is something thatthat the FCC should not allow to happen, until Comcast can guarantee that no customer will beinconvenienced and not incur any additional cost. This entire encryption process could be eliminatedwith the installation of filters), thus not requiring any addition boxes/activations/resets and allthe other hazards being proposed.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Comcast's justification on encrypting all channels is saving money by not having to send out people to manually connect and disconnect services and saving money by not having to deploy filters. How does this "money" savings benefit customers? Comcast should at least offer a few free HD DTAs, but I have not read anything about them doing proposing.

One other benefit to Comcast would be the ability to transition to mpeg-4 or to an IP based system since they would no longer have a need to be compatible with TV QAM tuners.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Sorry, Comcast already rents HD DTAs - they are called cable boxes. For HD televisions, your cable boxes converts Comcast's digital signal into an analog signal. You connect the analog signal to your TV using one of two methods. The simple method uses an HDMI cable - you get both picture and sound. The other connection uses 5 wires, three for picture information and 2 for sound. Neither connection requires your television set to have a tuner.

Comcast sends the signal to your house using an encoding technology called QAM. By FCC rules the cable company has to use the same type of QAM as the signals you can receive using an antenna. If you have a digital TV, you can plug in directly to the cable (no boxes needed) using your tuner and watch HD TV. Of course, Comcast also offers premium level content. Comcast ENCRYPTS the premium level stuff so that you can't receive them.

What has changed is that Comcast will now ENCRYPT ALL SIGNALS. The only way to un-encrypt the signals will be to use a Comcast decrypted - a cable box. If you have an old TV, Comcast long ago made available a DTA that would decrypt the content you are entitled to receive. This DTA changed it into the old-fashioned analog signal (called NTSC) that your old TV could receive on channel 3 or 4. You get a picture that is no better than the 50-year technology behind NTSC. This old--fashioned technology is very cheap, so Comcast supplied the DTA you needed for free.

With the change in encryption you no longer need a TV set. All you need is a monitor. Your TV tuner, unless you use an antenna to watch local stations, is useless.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

The difference between a HD cable box and an HD-DTA is that the HD-DTA can not do Video on Demand. The HD-DTA is a lot smaller and the rental costs should be minimal in comparison to a HD cable box. Many local community cable commissions have filed comments with the FCC to allow the cable customers to get several HD-DTAs free. The only problem with these HD-DTAs is the HD signal is only output via HDMI so if your TV has only component inputs or a DVI input the HD-DTA is not compatible without purchasing a somewhat expensive adapter.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

I must start this post with some honesty. I have worked my entire adult life for the cable industry (with the exception of 18-19 where i worked for a dish company) and channel encryption is huge for the cable company. They obviously save money by not having to do physical discos and in some instances they don't have to do physical Reco's. Cable theft is a bigger problem than a lot of people realize. Besides the obvious loss of potential revenue that someone is getting something they shouldn't be it is more than that. During the years i worked as a main line tech i can tell you there were many, many, many outages caused by noise problems directly related to someone stealing. This is because when someone decides to steal cable they don't usually care if they use quality wire and/or splitters. They just want a connection of any kind. This results in noise going back into the cable plant causing issues for people who really are paying for their service. It can cause anything from interm issues to full blown outages. So while i understand the confusion and/or anger over the QAM tuner televisions, and i also think there should be an alternative besides just the DTA, i am infavor of full channel encryption.

On a side not why is it that other providers seem to get a pass when it comes to needing a box/reciever on every television? Unless i am forgetting someone i can't think of any major provider where you get any services with the coax plugged straight into a TV...not Dish, UVERSE, FIOS.Do you think it's because you never needed them before with cable so it is a big change? Is it because other providers have always been this way so people already expected it? Is it really the box that is the issue or the additional rental fees? I have always wondered this and figured this is probably the best place to ask. Like i said i have been in the cable industry now for 15 years and i love to hear different opinions with discussions like this.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Commtech9501,

I'm not objecting to encryption for products that cost the cable company real money. I've no objection to them preventing theft of their property. However, OTA broadcasts and feeds from CSPAN and the like, belong to the public. We provide the free broadcast spectrum. How is it possible for the public to steal from itself?

Comcast, with its ownership of NBC, benefits greatly from that free spectrum.The FCC raised the price of my television set by requiring the manufacturer to include a QAM decoder. I pay the electric company to power that, now useless, set of electronics. Why should I consume and pay for even more power iust because I don't choose to provide a bi-directional path to my cable company?

There are all sorts of less-than-usefull articles on the web including comparisons to a refrigerator. Here's a link to an undated Motorla presentation trying to place itself in the best possible light; Motorola Presentation. Most of the power savings to date have come from elimination of the need for processing analog signals. Their own best-estimate is that the minimum power consumption is around 10W - higher if you want greater functionality. I have 5 sets - so that's at least 50 watts, 24 hours a day, for 365 days a year = 438Kwh to enable functions such as VOD that I may may never use If I follow your reasoning, I purchase this additional power to protect Comcast against the theft of Comcast's rebroadcasting of their own OTA content. Then, to further protect them, Comcast not only asks me to pay for the power, they also ask me to rent the decryption devices.

Bottom line, I want the option purchase the lowest level of service offered without incurring additional, hidden, costs on all my digital sets. I want to receive signals, not send them. I don't understand the need to encrypt freely available material. I don't object to to paying for complex boxes that provide other services - e.g DVR, VOD,e tc. I just want to retain the choice. That's one of the reasons I don't subscribe to sattelite services.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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It just feels that Comcast is nickel and dimeing us to death with all the equipment fees. Verizon FiOS does not charge an additional rental fee for a cable modem (currently $7 a month in my area). With Comcast you can purchase your own modem but if you have Comcast phone service the rental fee is mandatory. Verizon also supplies a free wireless router. In addition Verizon gives you a discount on additional set top boxes if you have a multiroom DVR. When I first subscribed to Comcast the HD boxes were $5 each and the DVR was $10. Now with the cost of equipment greatly reduced the pricing of the rental equipment has increased greatly. It appear Comcast looks at equipment rental as just another (perhaps hidden) way of getting income, That's why I feel at a minimum two HD-DTAs should be given to each customer free, In my area the Montgomery County Cable Commission as submitted comments to the FCC for four free HD-DTA boxes per subscriber.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

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My main response to the above, being retired, I do not set the Comcast charges as "Nickel and Dime". This is real money, and even after the increases in rental and programming fees we are getting less product (at least at the Digital Starter and Basic levels). YMMV

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Comcast sends the signal to your house using an encoding technology called QAM. By FCC rules the cable company has to use the same type of QAM as the signals you can receive using an antenna.

Over-the-air digital TV signals use a different form of modulation than QAM. A digital tuner in TV set does not necessarily have the ability to demodulate QAM signals, although it is likely that most digital tuners have the ability.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Commtech9501 wrote:

On a side not why is it that other providers seem to get a pass when it comes to needing a box/reciever on every television? Unless i am forgetting someone i can't think of any major provider where you get any services with the coax plugged straight into a TV...not Dish, UVERSE, FIOS.Do you think it's because you never needed them before with cable so it is a big change? Is it because other providers have always been this way so people already expected it? Is it really the box that is the issue or the additional rental fees? I have always wondered this and figured this is probably the best place to ask. Like i said i have been in the cable industry now for 15 years and i love to hear different opinions with discussions like this.

Another difference between cable TV and Dish, UVERSE, and FIOS is that cable TV systems are typically a monopoly in each area they serve. Cable TV systems are typically regulated by the same local government agency that regulates other utility services.

Both the additional box consuming additional electrical power and the addition fee for the box are issues. Also, the addition box is another piece of electronic equipment that needs to be properly disposed.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

Commtech9501 wrote:

On a side not why is it that other providers seem to get a pass when it comes to needing a box/reciever on every television? Unless i am forgetting someone i can't think of any major provider where you get any services with the coax plugged straight into a TV...not Dish, UVERSE, FIOS.Do you think it's because you never needed them before with cable so it is a big change? Is it because other providers have always been this way so people already expected it? Is it really the box that is the issue or the additional rental fees? I have always wondered this and figured this is probably the best place to ask. Like i said i have been in the cable industry now for 15 years and i love to hear different opinions with discussions like this.

Most of the people that have had cable for decades are used to just the straight cable to the tv connection. They may also remember the advertising from Comcast after the Federal Digital OTA transmission change ver that no extra equipment would be needed to receive the picutre; i.e. no box needed like OTA users would. Also change is always hard especially when the systems don't seem to work as stated and getting a coherent and consistent answer doesn't seem to exist at times. It doesn't help that with people hurting economically that the option to own a STB doens't exist to help reduce the cost of cable like the ability to own your own cable modem to reduce Internet service rates.

In some areas televlsion service from telephone companies is fairly new due to costs of infrastructure, changes in technology, and regulation. Our local phone company never offered television service while cable was under Time Warner. When the switch occured to Comcast the service became available. Probably due more to regulation and franchise agreements set up for Time Warner and reviewed when Comcast took over.

Re: HD DTA coming out?

We know that High Definition-capable DTAs have been developed. They would be particularly useful for cost-conscious Comcast clients who have multiple HD television sets and who are willing (for their "secondary" TVs) to do without On Demand or DVR capabilities.

I would certainly see value in Comcast offering HD DTAs to their client base.