George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two cuts and two black eyes: ABC News report

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It's amazing the length some of them will go to claim Martin was simply the "victim".

Star Member patrice (37,446 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
18. I still don't get how he could think his life was threatened, since HE was the one with THE GUN.

Even with these kinds of injuries, HOW could he think his life was in danger, HOW could he think an unarmed KID COULD kill him; he's the one with the gun!

minavasht (413 posts)
33. So what kind of injuries would warrant

the shooting?

Is there a set limit when it is OK to shoot?
Broken nose apparently is not OK.
Cuts to your head are also not OK.

Maybe a broken nose and a broken jaw? How about two broken arms? How many broken ribs are enough - you have a bunch anyway, maybe we set the limit at 5?

How about slamming your head into concrete? Are 3 times enough? Maybe 25?

And who keeps the count? Do you ask for a timeout to do an inventory and if you are below the limit, let him beat you up some more, before you can shoot?

BTW, in 2010 5.8% of the reported murders were committed with bare hands. Look it up, it happens all the time.

Star Member patrice (37,446 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
50. Are you suggesting that someone with a gun in their hand in that situation, mentally assess how

close to some legal definition his experience is?

Or that we do that assessment after the fact?

If we're supposed to do it after the fact, where's the individual's responsibility in situ to recognize when the line has been crossed, or not, and get it right or suffer the consequences?

Star Member patrice (37,446 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
54. After-all, the balance of power was hugely in Z's favor. Do you know what it takes to beat someone

Last edited Tue May 15, 2012, 08:26 PM USA/ET - Edit history (2)
to death? Compared to what it takes to kill someone with a gun,

minavasht (413 posts)
55. Exactly!

We weren't there at the time. We don't know how he felt when he was being punched. We know he had a broken nose and many smaller injuries to his head.

Maybe you box regularly and can take many punches to your head. Maybe you are used to have your nose broken by a stranger. Maybe you can fight off somebody who is stronger that you and has you on the ground. To most people this would feel like a life or death situation. Do you expect them to wait until they are dying before they shoot their attacker?

Star Member patrice (37,446 posts)
105. It might FEEL like a life or death situation, but it might RATIONALLY be otherwise. Law is rational.

Law wouldn't work at all if it adjudicated on the grounds of something as ephemeral as feelings/emotions.

Lots of things FEEL bad, but are rationally efficacious. Lots of things FEEL good, but are rationally bad.

You are right, he might feel like it was life or death, but he has a RATIONAL responsibility to ascertain whether that feeling is correct or not, especially since the other person is unarmed and HE is the one with the gun.

Z was SUPPOSED to figure it out. The law says there are consequences for deciding wrongly.

His responsibility is commensurate with his power, the gun, a greater power than Trayvon had, therefore much more responsibility for getting it right.

If he had been responsible enough to get it figured out right, Trayvon would be alive, and justly so, and Zimmerman would be a free man. He didn't just fuck up. He fucked up BIG, because of the gun. He must pay the price.

Or maybe Zimmerman would be dead.

But then most of them wouldn't care about that.

ProgressiveProfessor (16,625 posts)
113. That is not quite the way it works

The standard is reasonable fear of GBI or death. That is not the same as some after action analysis by a bunch of suits.
- Whether your attacker is unarmed (or not) is not relevant
- There is no commensurate standard/responsibility in the law.
What it boils down to is would a reasonable person in similar circumstances believe that they were at immediate risk of GBI or death. FL is not alone in that standard, it is used nationwide.

Due to the withholding of the evidence from the public, none of us have an adequate basis for informed judgement. While like many I have a hard time seeing how it could not be a crime, the honest answer is we really don't have enough information. I expect a few more surprised before this is done.

minavasht (413 posts)
22. Many people refuse medical treatment

or transportation to the hospital, trying to avoid the medical bills.
In many cases bruises are visible after 24-36 hours, that's why all victims are asked to contact the police later if bruises become visible.
If I remember correctly, the injuries on the back of his head were documented after the shooting and confirmed by the police.
Also, there was a report stating that Trayvon only had injuries on his knuckles.

Star Member patrice (37,446 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
18. I still don't get how he could think his life was threatened, since HE was the one with THE GUN.

Even with these kinds of injuries, HOW could he think his life was in danger, HOW could he think an unarmed KID COULD kill him; he's the one with the gun!

Good Lord. patrice: not that you would because you're obviously a flaming liberal douche, but never EVER buy a gun. You'd end up getting killed by it because your attacker would take it from you and blow you away while you were deciding "hm am I in danger? yea, well no, well maybe." sheesh

Good men sleep peaceably in their beds at night because
rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

I see the sane members of DU (well the ones that haven't been TS) like the progressiveprofesor try to bring sanity into the discussion and wonder why he even bothers. He must have compromising pictures of the owner of DU cause his logic should have gotten him TS'd long ago.

I gather from reading some of those posts that if I have a gun on me and the perp is attempting to beat the living crap out of me I am not to draw the gun because the chances of him beating me to death is low.

I would like to see what they would do if they were in Zimmerman's shoes.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.