That does not mean the player should be able to press the wrong button or have failed inputs and still AA tho.

No button is the wrong button to AA. If it AA’s it AA’s. No one is guaranteed a jump even if it’s the back of Guile’s close s.MP hit box where his arm twists around all funky. You go up on someone who can move their stick around, it’s never a one way street. Unless they’re in the recovery of a special move or sweep no reason to expect you’re gonna come down.

Its not all about know the numbers, it’s about knowing the mind of the player. I remember watching punk versus 801striders Laura and punks urien… punk ate 4 dashup command grabs in a row. Laura is hella negative on that sequence… it’s not always the frames. After that sequence, I don’t think strider went for any more command grabs from that position, but he did go for the meaties and those meaties did hit punk a few times.

It’s not all numbers. Remember, a stagger is basically ALWAYS negative, yet punk gets away with them al day. Knowing the mind of your opponent and conditioning them into a certain mindset or decision loop.

Why people don’t get this I don’t understand. I jump at neutral players all the time, but that doesnt mean I consider it some great strat… it’s a risk to get offense started. It’s a guess… can’t get mad if your guess is wrong.

This is actually a really educational set to watch. You get to see one of the best players out there’s decision making when using a character that’s he’s familiar with but not perfect with. You see how that affects his decision making in things that are universal. Like against punks Karin I doubt strider would have been able to get that series off.

For that matter strider has a really nice footsie trick he uses where he backs away… then walks forward a half step and presses a button. It’s a DIFFERENT movement sequence than the normal back forward that most players have. Punk also notices it and after getting hit by it, starts to bait it out. Punk also has an unusual movement sequence, he likes to walk into your poke range and just block… it’s weird, most players are trying to just stay out of range or make you wiff, or get in for their button, but punk just walks into your range and blocks.

I think those 2 movements sequences and that 1 South American Vega player that does his half screen shimmy are the more original moving tactics I’ve seen in sf5.

@A10metal LMK if you’re gonna be on tonight. I might be on depending. Have to do some night work first and if I do go on probably play a few ranked matches first any way. If tomorrow is good also LMK. Should be around later in the evening.

Man I miss the days of whiffing air throw on jumpins with vega specifically to counter AA jab. If they did literally any other kind of AA i’d be fucked but everyone just went for the jab so I was golden and got a free command grab every time.

Of course, they had to nerf that for Vega, you know before they actually tried to nerf AA jabs.

Why does vega still make me so mad its almost 2019 and im still mad about vega!!!

So community agrees that AA jabs are retarded. But Sagat can get AAed from behind on a front side poke during a cross up and everything is working as intended. Got it.

I tend to not agree with the community on specific parts of the game. It’s not like AA jabs are completely gone and AA jabs ultimately do what they can do which is keep jumpers on the ground. Nobody deserves an award for jumping.

It’s not really impossible in any game to get anti aired by stuff that hits “in front”. If the opponent can actively press a button or block as you’re jumping, you’ve already picked a sub optimal point to jump. Good jumps are ones where you bait the opponent into something where they can’t move or perform another action prior to the jump.

You’re not doing anything but trying to punish a mistake with a mistake in the long run. A better player would just anti air you more optimally any way. If you’re having to jump vs Guile as Sagat he’s already winning neutral at the minimum any way. At that point you’re just praying something sloppy catches him on something sloppy.

DR ray vega has one of the cleanest styles in sf5. I like the movement pattern he shows here and this is the set that put me on notice for him.

First match shows him using a “fake dash” movement pattern where he basically walks backwards for about a half a second, then inputs forward back really fast. It looks like the first forward input of a dash, so it’s a really good fake.

Next match he’s conditioned k brad to expect the fake so he uses more dashes, and he also switches up the movement pattern to a half screen shimmy zoning based pattern where he basically does forward back forward back really quickly… it’s pretty obvious. He’s a pretty defensive player and makes vega look like an actually good character.

He also seems to take a page out of punks book. In the first round of the first match of most of punks games, he will look to establish Karin’s st.mk. He usual,y does this 2-4 times early in the round. His opponents will usually try to then stay away from the max range of the st.mk, and punk will usually then do his longer ranged v skill… which tends to hit everyone because (and this is just a guess) they thought the st.mk was coming out so they try to twitch wiff punish but the v skill hits them in startup.

DR Ray seems to use a bit of the same strategy by starting out his first match with a movement pattern that he wins with, then abandons later for the pattern he seems more all around comfortable with.

You’re not being objective about this. If a Sakura has stubby ground normals you can’t just say lol shouldn’t be trying to play footsies.

I get that you want to be all SF holy at the moment but jumping is a part of the game. His air buttons are objectively bad.

Everyone could get better stuff, but playing enough lower tier characters in other games you learn that you have to do what is right even if what you have isn’t optimal. I would like to throw more c.MK’s at 3S Ken, but Ibuki’s c.MK doesn’t cancel into anything so I can’t check his lows as the risk/reward is completely in his favor. I can’t check him walking as much as he checks me walking, but that’s the reality of the character and the matchup. If I want to win I’m going to have to not press c.MK too many times.

Sakura’s footsies are realistically only like one or 2 buttons for the most part, but yeah you should be using those buttons in the correct places.

Sure, jumping is a part of the game but being anti aired is also a part of the game. Anti airing and jumping are never black and white scenarios. When someone jumps at someone neutral on the ground there is no guarantee the jumper lands their jump and there’s no guarantee the grounded person gets their anti air. If the grounded opponent can move around then there is an inherent risk for both the grounded opponent and the jumper.

In a zoning based matchup like Guile vs Sagat or any zoning based matchup, if you are jumping vs Guile it means you are giving up space. Giving up space means you are giving up neutral and giving up room to win the match. The zoner that is being jumped on is the one in the advantage as they can dictate way more things than the zoner that is jumping can. If you can’t get the Guile player to jump in on you instead then that’s already a situation where you are losing ground.

I think I’m the one that first brought up how bad his jumpins are in the last thread… maybe not, but yes, they are terrible. DJ isn’t not being objective… it’s jjst that this is sf5 and everyone has shitty things they have to deal with. Guile can’t dash in and command grab you, nor can he dash in and cr.lk,cr.lp xx flashkick (iirc) there are parameters in the game. The fireball characters tend to have the worst jumpins/the least amount of anti fireball moves/ few to no jump arc changing things/ lack command grabs/have invincible reversals… etc.

Command grabbers tend to not have fireballs, tend to have moves to deal with projectiles, tend to not have the greatest jumpin mixups (unsafe) if they have them at all, and tend to not have reversals of any kind (necalli and Laura being the obvious outliers here)

Non fireball characters that don’t have command grabs tend to have the best jumpins and most jump arc changing moves and jump mixups… etc etc etc

It’s not ironclad by any means but it’s a general rule of thumb that capcom stretches to fit over most characters.

Yea not gonna agree on this one. If Guile throws a boom i can jump and not get flash kicked and he doesnt have the spacing for crouch hp, there’s no way he should press b+hp and have it work.

Going pretty far to justify this one

Again my situation is easy to see here.

If you’re playing against a better player they are going to anti air you any ways. If you didn’t get flash kicked that’s not a good thing. There’s nobody clapping hands for that shit. The commentator of the pool match is just going to say you should have gotten anti aired regardless.

It’s like running at someone with a gun in their hand and not getting shot and tackling them to the ground. Ok you did that, but that wasn’t the right move and you could have got shot/died.

If he does anything and it works then it may be a jank scenario but in the end what happened is what should have happened. You jumped in a bad scenario and got AA’d. Just because an opponent is showcasing a lack of reactions or button awareness doesn’t mean you can also do things that are bad and get away with them everytime. Sure b+HP is not the perfect way to get anti aired, but it is an anti air in a situation where you should have already been anti aired. The b+HP hitting you is better than the flash kick hitting you any way.

Again. Im jumping at cross up range over a boom. Its a good jump for any other character except rog because he doesnt actually have a cross up. Input errors or whatever the hell that was shouldnt be rewarded.

Again. Im jumping at cross up range over a boom. Its a good jump for any other character except rog because he doesnt actually have a cross up. Input errors or whatever the hell that was shouldnt be rewarded.

That “reward” is pretty low regardless and it’s still not a situation where a jump in is guaranteed especially considering booms have about the best recovery of any fireball in the game. If the b+HP anti aired you then something else more efficient could have AA’d you as well. If he has enough room to go into recovery then still nothing is guaranteed. You could have gotten air thrown or some other reactionary button.

You answered your own question “it’s a good jump for any other character” sagat isnt any other character, it’s not a good jump for HIM. He’s got, you know, these things called fireballs that you can throw at guile to absorb guiles booms, he’s got an ex fireball to knock guile down.

It’s probably a bad matchup for sagat, but that doesn’t mean sagat deserves some high priority jumpin like gief j.mk. It also doesn’t mean he deserves normal jumpin priority. He’s designed t own the ground masks others jump.

You want to jump in with priority, pick another character and give up your fireball and gain a good jumpin.