And as far as the "comic book feel," I never said that it was lighthearted. I consider the Tim Burton Batman films to have that superhero comic book feel, and those aren't light at all.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

It's obviously all opinions if you want to hear simplistic speeches in a movie, but I will always want speeches that sound eloquent and broader in terms of vocabulary or something that makes people actually think. Aunt May's speeches did not. Something poetic such as Gordon's TDK speech did. In fact, the entire trilogy has a very poetic feeling to it with any of their speeches that only adds more to the experience when watching the trilogy.

Once again, I feel that Gordon was pulling words out of a hat. A speech that "sounds eloquent and broader in terms of vocabulary or something" doesn't make it sound poetic. It sounds... fake. Last minute. If someone started using big words in the wrong places, just because it "sounds cool" and smart, then I wouldn't exactly call him or her a scholar.

Aunt May's speeches weren't exactly poetic, but they didn't sound annoying, at least not until Spider-Man 3 (what wasn't annoying about that movie?).

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

And as far as the "comic book feel," I never said that it was lighthearted. I consider the Tim Burton Batman films to have that superhero comic book feel, and those aren't light at all.

Pulling words out of a hat? Well...isn't that what one does when they're trying to explain something such as he was doing even after a terrible time with Dent just minutes ago?

It was a soft spoken speech but it gave way to show what the character of Batman is truly about. That speech alone, imo, could simplify Nolan's trilogy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Once again, I feel that Gordon was pulling words out of a hat. A speech that "sounds eloquent and broader in terms of vocabulary or something" doesn't make it sound poetic. It sounds... fake. Last minute.

Aunt May's speeches weren't exactly poetic, but they didn't sound annoying, at least not until Spider-Man 3 (what wasn't annoying about that movie?).

I felt May's speeches were very poorly written except for her speech to Peter while she was packing up her things in Spider-Man 2. That was the only well crafted and well written speech she had throughout the trilogy.

And you may say those reasons doesn't make it sound poetic, but I do feel Gordon's speech felt very poetic indeed. One of my main reasons why I love the trilogy so much because of that feeling whenever anyone spoke.

Pulling words out of a hat? Well...isn't that what one does when they're trying to explain something such as he was doing even after a terrible time with Dent just minutes ago?

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It was a soft spoken speech but it gave way to show what the character of Batman is truly about. That speech alone, imo, could simplify Nolan's trilogy.

Basically a superhero that found his excuse to quit for the next 8 years.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

Last minute? Fake? Well, it's a comic book movie and it's an emotional one at that. I felt the words perfectly described my love for Batman in a lot of ways. I get emotional every time i hear those words along with the score booming and the image of Batman.

Dont see anything corny about it whatsoever. Nothing last minute, because it felt like the writers put thought into that dialogue. AND it didn't feel unnatural. Ive only heard you and like a few others so far talk smack about that speech..and im not sure why. I dont even get the argument of "he wouldnt say to his son". He's like 8 or whatever, he's not an idiot. And i always see it as Gordon staring off into space, in a trance, aware that his kid is asking him the question, but he's focused on the Batman and the sacrifice. His mind is on everything. It's very poetic and that's what is so amazing about it. I feel bad that u cant enjoy it because it's "too poetic". Poetic dialogue is something people should strive for in a movie. I love the natural dialogue (like conversations that Tarantino writes in there. Because he's my favourite of all time) but that scene didn't call for a conversation. It's the ending of the movie. It's about Batmans sacrifice. And finally, it's about what Batman means to Gordon and what he thinks the character is doing for the city.

Anyways to each their own, i love that ending..i love the speech, it's one of my favourite endings of all time. Actually each ending of this trilogy is perfect imo.

An excuse? Bruce looked like he was um, quite lost in lieu of "quitting" as you so succinctly put it. He wasn't wearing the costume over those eight years but he most certainly didn't quit as he wasn't able to move on.

Isn't it, though? It had raw emotion that felt like Gordon was trying to give his son the most honest answer and so with that, "pulling words out of a hat" is actually a compliment and I'd take it as that even if you didn't mean it.

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Basically a superhero that found his excuse to quit for the next 8 years.

An excuse to keep someone's name up as one of the good guys. Such a terrible reason

Last minute? Fake? Well, it's a comic book movie and it's an emotional one at that. I felt the words perfectly described my love for Batman in a lot of ways. I get emotional every time i hear those words along with the score booming and the image of Batman.

Dont see anything corny about it whatsoever. Nothing last minute, because it felt like the writers put thought into that dialogue. AND it didn't feel unnatural. Ive only heard you and like a few others so far talk smack about that speech..and im not sure why. I dont even get the argument of "he wouldnt say to his son". He's like 8 or whatever, he's not an idiot. And i always see it as Gordon staring off into space, in a trance, aware that his kid is asking him the question, but he's focused on the Batman and the sacrifice. His mind is on everything. It's very poetic and that's what is so amazing about it. I feel bad that u cant enjoy it because it's "too poetic". Poetic dialogue is something people should strive for in a movie. I love the natural dialogue (like conversations that Tarantino writes in there. Because he's my favourite of all time) but that scene didn't call for a conversation. It's the ending of the movie. It's about Batmans sacrifice. And finally, it's about what Batman means to Gordon and what he thinks the character is doing for the city.

Anyways to each their own, i love that ending..i love the speech, it's one of my favourite endings of all time. Actually each ending of this trilogy is perfect imo.

It felt completely unnatural to me, but as you said, to each his own.

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Isn't it, though? It had raw emotion that felt like Gordon was trying to give his son the most honest answer and so with that, "pulling words out of a hat" is actually a compliment and I'd take it as that even if you didn't mean it.

It certainly wasn't a compliment.

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An excuse to keep someone's name up as one of the good guys. Such a terrible reason

Okay, but he didn't have to quit because the cops were after him. Other heroes spend their daily lives being chased, and have warrants made for their arrests. Yet, it doesn't stop them from fighting crime, and saving innocent lives.

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I think it's the brother of the Sorting Hat.

Its been a long time since I watched a Harry Potter film. Think the last one was the 4th film, then I got really tired of it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

Okay, but he didn't have to quit because the cops were after him. Other heroes spend their daily lives being chased, and have warrants made for their arrests. Yet, it doesn't stop them from fighting crime, and saving innocent lives.

Batman felt that Cops were able to do their job effectively with the help of the Dent Act, if he had continued to operate as Batman, that would have made the Gotham Police department look ineffective against Batman who was viewed as a law breaker and a killer, that would have put Commissioner Gordon in a difficult position as he would have to either arrest Batman using any means or leave his job.

Why would Batman want to make Gordon's job difficult ? If he felt that Cops were able to handle the law and order without his help then there was no reason to operate as Batman, Batman comes into picture whenever things go out of hands of the regular law enforcement agencies.

Besides, Nolan's Gotham is Not comics Gotham where there is unlimited number of criminals (like - Hugo Strange, Riddler, Black Mask, Man-Bat and so on...)

I don't think he would have made Gordon's job difficult. If he comes into contact with him, he would easily escape. Also, I would have preferred if Two-Face survived TDK and scrapped the whole "Dent Act" idea.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

I'm glad Two-Face didn't survive. I don't like the idea of using a villain for a big role more than once in a series. It's repetitive. There are other fantastic villains to choose from. Cameos are fine in sequels, actually they're amazing, but Two-Face as another huge character in the 3rd? Or i mean THE main character? Im happy it didn't happen.

I'm glad Two-Face didn't survive. I don't like the idea of using a villain for a big role more than once in a series. It's repetitive. There are other fantastic villains to choose from. Cameos are fine in sequels, actually they're amazing, but Two-Face as another huge character in the 3rd? Or i mean THE main character? Im happy it didn't happen.

What did you think of Magneto in the X-Men films then? I don't think Two-Face had a big enough role for it to be considered "repetitive." He wouldn't have been the "main" villain probably.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

I am aware of this. Hence why I said I know you didn't mean it as a compliment, but I took it as one anyways

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Okay, but he didn't have to quit because the cops were after him. Other heroes spend their daily lives being chased, and have warrants made for their arrests. Yet, it doesn't stop them from fighting crime, and saving innocent lives.

What crimes and innocent lives are you talking about now? Crime went down after organized crime was stopped and from the sound of Batman Begins, it's organized crime that "creates" people starving for food and cash like Joe Chill. Take out the disease called the mobs and you take out major problems like any future Joe Chills.

And someone brings up plot holes in TDKR and you said when you hear someone say 'Because it's Batman' like the comics, you say it's a bad answer, and now you bring up other heroes spending their daily lives being chased which I assume you mean from the comics....and no one should call that bs logic out? Well, I am. This is a far different tale, and I understand people will love it or hate it, but don't compare Nolan's Batman to other heroes that never end up retiring in comics and just fight crime, fight crime, fight crime.

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Its been a long time since I watched a Harry Potter film. Think the last one was the 4th film, then I got really tired of it.

Recently saw all eight films with my lady the entire week before Thanksgiving. Really great series and I never read the books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

I don't think he would have made Gordon's job difficult. If he comes into contact with him, he would easily escape. Also, I would have preferred if Two-Face survived TDK and scrapped the whole "Dent Act" idea.

He would have definitely made Gordon's job difficult since the mayor himself saw Batman as a criminal as everyone else besides Jim and he would've pushed Jim to go after Batman and as we see in TDKR, the next person in charge when Gordon can't perform his duties, if he viewed Batman as a criminal as well, he would've done all he can to take Batman down as Foley did.

And I like the idea of Two-Face dying and the Dent Act being created, myself. Nolan's Two-Face isn't a full-blown criminal and I don't think I would have liked to see him as a full-blown criminal either and with Harvey Dent being that 'white knight', I can see how Batman and Gordon would want to cherish the man's legacy. Plus, the Dent Act could've been a result from Dent's actions in the film as well with taking out 549(I believe) criminals and sending them off to prison.

I am aware of this. Hence why I said I know you didn't mean it as a compliment, but I took it as one anyways

As I am aware of this.

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What crimes and innocent lives are you talking about now? Crime went down after organized crime was stopped and from the sound of Batman Begins, it's organized crime that "creates" people starving for food and cash like Joe Chill. Take out the disease called the mobs and you take out major problems like any future Joe Chills.

There will always be criminals out there, even without the organized crime groups being taken out. Have you ever lived in a city?

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And someone brings up plot holes in TDKR and you said when you hear someone say 'Because it's Batman' like the comics, you say it's a bad answer, and now you bring up other heroes spending their daily lives being chased which I assume you mean from the comics....and no one should call that bs logic out? Well, I am. This is a far different tale, and I understand people will love it or hate it, but don't compare Nolan's Batman to other heroes that never end up retiring in comics and just fight crime, fight crime, fight crime.

Anno, what in the world are you talking about? What does Batman quitting have to do with plot holes?

And to make my point, Spider-Man has been chased by the police in his movies, and animated series, not just the comic books. Daredevil was being hunted down in his movie as well. Just saying that just because the police are no longer on his side does that mean he has to hang up the Bat suit and retire. If anything, he has an even BIGGER reason to not quit than in the comic books. At least there Batman is practically unnecessary with heroes like Superman flying around.

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Recently saw all eight films with my lady the entire week before Thanksgiving. Really great series and I never read the books.

I tried getting into them, but they're not my cup of tea.

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And I like the idea of Two-Face dying and the Dent Act being created, myself. Nolan's Two-Face isn't a full-blown criminal and I don't think I would have liked to see him as a full-blown criminal either and with Harvey Dent being that 'white knight', I can see how Batman and Gordon would want to cherish the man's legacy. Plus, the Dent Act could've been a result from Dent's actions in the film as well with taking out 549(I believe) criminals and sending them off to prison.

Harvey Dent was pretty much a full blown criminal by the end of TDK. He was a murderer, and essentially a very dangerous man. If Dent was still around, and the criminals were put back on the street, it would have been an even bigger problem for Batman & the police to deal with, adding more conflict to the story. Batman wouldn't have quit, and perhaps Bane would have had an even bigger reason for destroying Gotham. "Take control of your city" would mean a lot more IMO.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

So was it necessary to say it wasn't a compliment even when I acknowledged that I knew it already?

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There will always be criminals out there, even without the organized crime groups being taken out. Have you ever lived in a city?

So Gotham City is like any real world city, huh?

Your point is mute when the case is that the organized crime comprised most of Gotham's problems and yes, the mayor even acknowledged that crime still exists, but it's more on the purse-snatching kind of crime...the kind of crime Batman never dealt with anywhere in the trilogy.

And as Blake said, soon the cops will be there to only return overdue books

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Anno, what in the world are you talking about? What does Batman quitting have to do with plot holes?

Someone is rather dense. I bring up the idea that you hate it when plot holes are brought up and people say 'Because it's Batman', well, I hate it when you bring up other heroes not quitting when both are ridiculous claims.

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And to make my point, Spider-Man has been chased by the police in his movies, and animated series, not just the comic books. Daredevil was being hunted down in his movie as well. Just saying that just because the police are no longer on his side does that mean he has to hang up the Bat suit and retire. If anything, he has an even BIGGER reason to not quit than in the comic books. At least there Batman is practically unnecessary with heroes like Superman flying around.

You're talking about the first films....when they are chased down as being vigilantes(such as Batman Begins ). Batman is framed for a murder spree including Harvey Dent. Big difference and as I said, big difference from movies to cartoons and comics as well.

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I tried getting into them, but they're not my cup of tea.

It probably isn't to a lot of people.

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Harvey Dent was pretty much a full blown criminal by the end of TDK. He was a murderer, and essentially a very dangerous man. If Dent was still around, and the criminals were put back on the street, it would have been an even bigger problem for Batman & the police to deal with, adding more conflict to the story. Batman wouldn't have quit, and perhaps Bane would have had an even bigger reason for destroying Gotham. "Take control of your city" would mean a lot more IMO.

Harvey Dent wasn't anywhere near a full-blown criminal as Joker or Bane. He had a mindset of revenge that was screwed with in a matter of hours where he then tried to kill an entire family, but to continue and become a real hardened criminal would ideally take away the purpose of Dent even being this white knight and would take away a major purpose in TDKR as well. It's speculative to know what would happen if Two-Face did live on and became a major villain in a threequel such as the purposed idea of Joker and Two-Face being in the threequel, but it definitely fits better the way it is in TDK. And if Dent was still around, I would highly doubt that Bane would even be a villain.

So was it necessary to say it wasn't a compliment even when I acknowledged that I knew it already?

Just emphasizing the fact that it wasn't a compliment, that's all.

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So Gotham City is like any real world city, huh?

Gotham City generally resembles New York, yes. Its not like Gotham is some city outside the U.S., or better yet on Planet Mars. Its here in the U.S., and big cities tend to share similar characteristics, such as high crime rate.

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Your point is mute when the case is that the organized crime comprised most of Gotham's problems and yes, the mayor even acknowledged that crime still exists, but it's more on the purse-snatching kind of crime...the kind of crime Batman never dealt with anywhere in the trilogy.

Batman should have still dealt with criminals outside of organized crime IMO.

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And as Blake said, soon the cops will be there to only return overdue books

Another thing I never bought about the Dent Act, and Gotham being virtually "crime free."

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Someone is rather dense. I bring up the idea that you hate it when plot holes are brought up and people say 'Because it's Batman', well, I hate it when you bring up other heroes not quitting when both are ridiculous claims.

I have heard time and time again, "BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN" to explain plot holes. Can't tell me what I have and have not heard people say. It gets rather annoying, actually.

And I still see no reason for Batman to quit. 8 years of sitting around, letting his own company fail, too.

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Harvey Dent wasn't anywhere near a full-blown criminal as Joker or Bane. He had a mindset of revenge that was screwed with in a matter of hours where he then tried to kill an entire family, but to continue and become a real hardened criminal would ideally take away the purpose of Dent even being this white knight and would take away a major purpose in TDKR as well. It's speculative to know what would happen if Two-Face did live on and became a major villain in a threequel such as the purposed idea of Joker and Two-Face being in the threequel, but it definitely fits better the way it is in TDK. And if Dent was still around, I would highly doubt that Bane would even be a villain.

Compared to the Joker or Bane, obviously he isn't much of a "full-blown criminal." And why does he have to be one to be a villain, anyway?

And his major purpose in TDKR would be completely different if he survived.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Parker

"No matter how small I am--no matter how hopeless everything seems--I mustn't give up! My size doesn't matter! Even my life doesn't matter! No one can win--every battle, but--no man should fall-- without a struggle!"

This is a far different tale, and I understand people will love it or hate it, but don't compare Nolan's Batman to other heroes that never end up retiring in comics and just fight crime, fight crime, fight crime.

When people say this it really annoys me. The "comic book Batman" has been rebooted twice, just like the "film Batman". They aren't the same character and they all have definitive endings. It's like saying the films go on forever because they will be rebooted too, so we'll never see Bruce doing mundane things, y'know actually being retired, only ever fighting crime.

Earth Two Batman (1939-1954 [with later adventures])- Retired, became police Commissioner and later died.

Earth One Batman (1954-1986)- Like all of Earth One died during the Crisis.

New Earth/New 52 Batman (1986-) We have seen his future, he dies.

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*\S/T*"But that's the thing about Batman. Batman thinks of everything.""There's always a way. When the odds are impossible- do the impossible."

Gotham City generally resembles New York, yes. Its not like Gotham is some city outside the U.S., or better yet on Planet Mars. Its here in the U.S., and big cities tend to share similar characteristics, such as high crime rate.

I have no idea what the point is that you're trying to make now.

Gotham's crime rate went exceptionally low after the organized crime element was taken out of the situation. And as I mentioned, what Blake said in the film...

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Batman should have still dealt with criminals outside of organized crime IMO.

Another thing I never bought about the Dent Act, and Gotham being virtually "crime free."

Batman could have and maybe he should have, but since we never see this in BB and TDK, I don't bring this up because there's no point to it as Nolan never showed it to begin with.

And Nolan's view on laws and what have you are only very simplified views, such as RICO. Plus, Gotham being virtually crime free thanks to the Dent Act isn't that bad compared to China not doing one damn thing after their citizen is kidnapped and taken overseas.

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I have heard time and time again, "BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN" to explain plot holes. Can't tell me what I have and have not heard people say. It gets rather annoying, actually.

And I find it annoying when others say Batman shouldn't have quit because we always see other heroes who don't in other films or other mediums such as comics and cartoons.

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And I still see no reason for Batman to quit. 8 years of sitting around, letting his own company fail, too.

I see a reason. I see a reason of there being no major crime for Batman to deal with as he sits and waits for Batman to be needed again as mentioned by Alfred in TDKR.

And Bruce Wayne did stay around longer working on the clean energy project and only went into exile three years before TDKR because he failed his father's company. Don't see how no one understands that quite well. Ruining the company ruined him even more.

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Compared to the Joker or Bane, obviously he isn't much of a "full-blown criminal." And why does he have to be one to be a villain, anyway?

I don't why. You said you wanted Two-Face around. So Two-Face wouldn't be a villain in your eyes?

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And his major purpose in TDKR would be completely different if he survived.

Ehhh, would the plan really be that different?

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Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

When people say this it really annoys me. The "comic book Batman" has been rebooted twice, just like the "film Batman". They aren't the same character and they all have definitive endings. It's like saying the films go on forever because they will be rebooted too, so we'll never see Bruce doing mundane things, y'know actually being retired, only ever fighting crime.

Earth Two Batman (1939-1954 [with later adventures])- Retired, became police Commissioner and later died.

Earth One Batman (1954-1986)- Like all of Earth One died during the Crisis.

New Earth/New 52 Batman (1986-) We have seen his future, he dies.

Is this a reply to what I said of Batman retiring or what? Lol. Don't know if this is backing up my statement or not. Sorry, I'm slow today, haha.