I always think its weird when I read in posts that if a couple is seriously discussing marriage 'they are already engaged' (usually followed by 'why do they need a ring' or 'a proposal isn't necessary'). Seriously discussing, and even know the plan is for it to happen someday, does not mean a couple is engaged - discussing a plan and implementing a plan are two separate stages of being.

That's exactly what inspired my question! I encountered a few posts opining that a couple who have agreed that they will one day marry are already engaged and there is 'no need' for a proposal. The combination of 'every couple should discuss marriage seriously', with 'when they agree marriage is the next step, they are engaged' pretty much kills the very concept of the proposal event, which I think is a shame, because I think proposals have a certain charm to them, and are often a great story.

Perhaps its my masculine pride rearing its head, but I would greatly resent being deprived of the chance to execute my (entirely hypothetical) ultimate romantic proposal.

Even if that is taken away by her proposing to you?

Honestly, yes. I was discussing this with friends the other day. I would hate to be proposed to for that exact reason. Not necessarily that it 'must be the mans job' - if the girl proposing works for other couples, more power to them. But me personally? I can't say it wouldn't bother me. And I really can't articulate why. I just really would want to orchestrate the proposal. Hopefully, if (a big if) the situation seems remotely likely to be impending, the lady in question would know well in advance of my feelings.

I really hope I'm not perceived as sexist. Or if I am, that people would understand that this is a one-off view I can't help.

I think that makes sense. I think my DH would have been very upset on several levels if I'd proposed to him. And once one is engaged and planning and even on the wedding day itself it becomes clear to me why proposing should be left for the man - so much of the wedding hoopla is about the bride. The pre-parties are mostly about the bride (even the bachelor party usually has to consider the bride's feelings on some 'traditional bachelor party' activities!), the big deal is made about the bride's attire, the MOB traditionally gets to pick her dress first, the MOG then follows suit, the photographer more follows the bride, bride, bride, bride, etc.

The proposal is the time when the groom gets to really shine and be the star of the story, if not the show. Because even after the proposal its the bride who wears the ring, and often if the one who is asked about the proposal. But at least when she is asked, her story is all about the groom, what he did, how he did it, didn't he pick a lovely ring, he knew just what she wanted, etc.

I think that makes sense. I think my DH would have been very upset on several levels if I'd proposed to him. And once one is engaged and planning and even on the wedding day itself it becomes clear to me why proposing should be left for the man - so much of the wedding hoopla is about the bride. The pre-parties are mostly about the bride (even the bachelor party usually has to consider the bride's feelings on some 'traditional bachelor party' activities!), the big deal is made about the bride's attire, the MOB traditionally gets to pick her dress first, the MOG then follows suit, the photographer more follows the bride, bride, bride, bride, etc.

The proposal is the time when the groom gets to really shine and be the star of the story, if not the show. Because even after the proposal its the bride who wears the ring, and often if the one who is asked about the proposal. But at least when she is asked, her story is all about the groom, what he did, how he did it, didn't he pick a lovely ring, he knew just what she wanted, etc.

That's a nice way of looking at it that works well for some people. I really mean that. But, for other couples, neither one wants to be the "star" at all, you know? Personally I would want to have a very small, casual wedding because I abhor being the center of attention, especially in a large group. My SO is only hypothetical and future, but it's not a stretch to imagine they might feel the same way. People might be disappointed that I didn't have a proposal story to share with them (or possibly even an engagement ring, I'm ambivalent about them), but that would be fine with me, if *I* had gotten the type of "proposal" (discussion and mutual agreement) that *I* wanted. I don't even really like the idea of our relationship/wedding being a "story" or "show" for other people, though pragmatically I understand it would be in some sense, just due to the linear nature of life.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative or anything, just presenting multiple viewpoints.

To a great extent though, the bride doesn't get too much of a say in being pushed into the spotlight. I certainly didn't take that position willingly. My husband is a performer. I am more a producer. But other people (family, friends, vendors, etc) focused on bride, bride, bride. Sure to a certain extent you can push back and say "no, not me, not bride, us, couple" but its definitely an uphill battle. A winnable battle but not an effort to be dismissed.

SpikeMilligan - of course, everyone is entitled to their own preferences!

My own preference would be to avoid flowers, down-on-one-knee, all that stuff. I'd consider the perfect proposal to be something like, in the middle of moving furniture, have someone say, "What about getting married sometime?" To me, that would be incredibly romantic, but I'm sure a lot of people don't share the feeling.

That's basically what went down with my husband, except sub in "driving to do boring errands" for "moving". He's the best.

I always think its weird when I read in posts that if a couple is seriously discussing marriage 'they are already engaged' (usually followed by 'why do they need a ring' or 'a proposal isn't necessary'). Seriously discussing, and even know the plan is for it to happen someday, does not mean a couple is engaged - discussing a plan and implementing a plan are two separate stages of being.

That's exactly what inspired my question! I encountered a few posts opining that a couple who have agreed that they will one day marry are already engaged and there is 'no need' for a proposal. The combination of 'every couple should discuss marriage seriously', with 'when they agree marriage is the next step, they are engaged' pretty much kills the very concept of the proposal event, which I think is a shame, because I think proposals have a certain charm to them, and are often a great story.

Perhaps its my masculine pride rearing its head, but I would greatly resent being deprived of the chance to execute my (entirely hypothetical) ultimate romantic proposal.

Even if that is taken away by her proposing to you?

Honestly, yes. I was discussing this with friends the other day. I would hate to be proposed to for that exact reason. Not necessarily that it 'must be the mans job' - if the girl proposing works for other couples, more power to them. But me personally? I can't say it wouldn't bother me. And I really can't articulate why. I just really would want to orchestrate the proposal. Hopefully, if (a big if) the situation seems remotely likely to be impending, the lady in question would know well in advance of my feelings.

I really hope I'm not perceived as sexist. Or if I am, that people would understand that this is a one-off view I can't help.

I think that makes sense. I think my DH would have been very upset on several levels if I'd proposed to him. And once one is engaged and planning and even on the wedding day itself it becomes clear to me why proposing should be left for the man - so much of the wedding hoopla is about the bride. The pre-parties are mostly about the bride (even the bachelor party usually has to consider the bride's feelings on some 'traditional bachelor party' activities!), the big deal is made about the bride's attire, the MOB traditionally gets to pick her dress first, the MOG then follows suit, the photographer more follows the bride, bride, bride, bride, etc.

The proposal is the time when the groom gets to really shine and be the star of the story, if not the show. Because even after the proposal its the bride who wears the ring, and often if the one who is asked about the proposal. But at least when she is asked, her story is all about the groom, what he did, how he did it, didn't he pick a lovely ring, he knew just what she wanted, etc.

It's the opposite for me. I refuse to date anyone who would be bothered by me proposing. I figure if (general) he isn't okay with that, he's not going to be okay with my other crunchy / feminist / offbeat life choices. I was the one who proposed to BhaktaBoy (a boyfriend I just recently broke up with). People were never rude or disappointed to hear our engagement story IRL and he was rather proud when we told it.

I guess you could say that I was one that didn't consider myself engaged until the proposal. In my case, it wasn't the proposal itself. But, the next step was all on me. He wasn't interested in planning a wedding, and that was OK with me. But, I wasn't going to do all that work until I had a clear-cut "Yes, I absolutely want to get married" from him. Rather than a more iffy, "Yes, I think it would be a good idea sometime in the near future (bit not now)"

I hate these things because I think the proposal should be a private affair because it's about a relationship of private emotions. I cringe during Moonstruck when Johnny Cammarreri proposed to Loretta in the Grand Ticino. Since I am one of those people who hates the birthday thing in public this would send me running for the exit.

As to the poll question, I think the answer would be "it depends." If the guy is otherwise a reasonable person I would say "Can we talk about this?" If I had any reason to think he was a manipulative type my answer would be to refuse publcly so there can be no question about it when you request a restraining order two days later.

BTW, my love of that music notwithstanding I would be embarrassed to death if a gentleman sent a mariachi band to do the public serenade thing.

I guess you could say that I was one that didn't consider myself engaged until the proposal. In my case, it wasn't the proposal itself. But, the next step was all on me. He wasn't interested in planning a wedding, and that was OK with me. But, I wasn't going to do all that work until I had a clear-cut "Yes, I absolutely want to get married" from him. Rather than a more iffy, "Yes, I think it would be a good idea sometime in the near future (bit not now)"

I agree, there's a *big* difference between "well, we might someday get married" and "Will you marry me?" It's just that some people talk about how they've bought the ring, circled a date on the calendar, and started making non-refundable deposits on wedding stuff, and they're still not "engaged" until the "official" proposal, which is a detailed production, rather than a simple agreement.

Even that's ok, if it's what floats your boat. But I'd consider the first "meeting of the minds" on the subject, whenever it occurs, to be the real proposal. Great if it's on a beach in Malibu, but hey, just as great if it's while taking out the garbage. It just seems a little odd that someone has asked, "Will you marry me?" and someone else has said "yes," but they don't consider it "real" until it's done in a specific manner.

Logged

My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

This happened to my cousin, she was proposed to very publicly and said yes because she felt she had too. It all got out of control very fast and before she knew it her family had planned an elaborate huge wedding for her and I think she got swept up in the attention also everyone kept saying that "cold feet" are normal and that he was a great guy ect., so she ended up marrying him, they didn't even last 6 months before she caught him messing around.

I have NO IDEA what I would do. probably say yes right away and so no later---hopefully unlike in my cousins experience people aren't planning a wedding by the time I get home and news hasn't gotten around to all the family!

I hate these things because I think the proposal should be a private affair because it's about a relationship of private emotions. I cringe during Moonstruck when Johnny Cammarreri proposed to Loretta in the Grand Ticino. Since I am one of those people who hates the birthday thing in public this would send me running for the exit.

My favorite line in the movie is when Ronnie has proposed and Mama asks "Do you love him, Loretta?" Loretta says, "Ma, I love him awful." Mom says, "Eh, too bad."

I hate these things because I think the proposal should be a private affair because it's about a relationship of private emotions. I cringe during Moonstruck when Johnny Cammarreri proposed to Loretta in the Grand Ticino. Since I am one of those people who hates the birthday thing in public this would send me running for the exit.

I think it's worth bearing in mind about that scene that he initially just asked her over dinner, with a bottle of champagne, and then she made him do the get down on one knee and offer a ring thing. So that's kind of a case of the bride making it more public than it was initially planned to be.

I always think its weird when I read in posts that if a couple is seriously discussing marriage 'they are already engaged' (usually followed by 'why do they need a ring' or 'a proposal isn't necessary'). Seriously discussing, and even know the plan is for it to happen someday, does not mean a couple is engaged - discussing a plan and implementing a plan are two separate stages of being.

That's exactly what inspired my question! I encountered a few posts opining that a couple who have agreed that they will one day marry are already engaged and there is 'no need' for a proposal. The combination of 'every couple should discuss marriage seriously', with 'when they agree marriage is the next step, they are engaged' pretty much kills the very concept of the proposal event, which I think is a shame, because I think proposals have a certain charm to them, and are often a great story.

Perhaps its my masculine pride rearing its head, but I would greatly resent being deprived of the chance to execute my (entirely hypothetical) ultimate romantic proposal.

I agree with this, I am a woman and a proposal was important to me. A female friend of mine expressed disappointment over her non-proposal. One friend and her FH had been discussing and planning on getting engaged. They went ring shopping together and he handed her the bag with the ring. It sounds so anti-climatic to me. My DH didn't do anything dramatic, we were on a visit to NYC taking a walk in Central Park, but the fact he got on one knee and asked me formally made the moment very special. I don't consider myself a demanding woman, but I would have felt let down if he had just considered us engaged because we had talked about marriage and wanted to head in that direction.

I think the marriage conversation should come up before a proposal (both people should agree about the direction of the relationship), but simply because two people have discussed marriage doesn't automatically mean they are engaged.