Who you side with by party...75% Libertarian69% Democratic68% Republican66% Green

July 28th, 2012, 7:24 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I'd say if a hospital wants to treat all patients on an equal basis, regardless of whether or not they are legal, then they are the ones that absorb the resultant costs. Simple.

Can't do it... and what do you do when an ethnic person comes in without Id, say an 8 year old in a bike vs car accident, no parent around. Not treat him because he doesn't have Id? No way in hell.

My understanding is that a hospital can't treat a child unless a parent or legal guardian gives permission anyways, unless it is an emergency.

And I wasn't speaking of minors anyways. I'm talking about adults. And with adults, if it is known that they are illegal the hospital should be able to deny them treatment. It's a business, no different than others, in that they are there to make money. If the government stops supporting these illegal immigrants, than they are taking the risk.

Sorry, call me an elitist. But I was born in this country from parent born in this country and grandparents who travelled here, entered legally and became citizens at their earliest convenience. They paid into the system, and didn't feed off of it. They lived through the Great Depression here and two World Wars, doing without through all of that while not depending on government aid. They lived during a time in which a hospital visit was made as a last resort, and you paid your bills, in cash and on time.

I have no sympathy, none, for a person or people who come to this country simply to fend off a far-too-liberal government supported by millions and millions of taxpayers who think that illegal immigration is a rampant problem in this country, and that welfare is a joke that should be abolished. The only people that support the idea of welfare is the people abusing it, and the politicians who want their votes.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

July 30th, 2012, 9:57 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

m2karateman wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I'd say if a hospital wants to treat all patients on an equal basis, regardless of whether or not they are legal, then they are the ones that absorb the resultant costs. Simple.

Can't do it... and what do you do when an ethnic person comes in without Id, say an 8 year old in a bike vs car accident, no parent around. Not treat him because he doesn't have Id? No way in hell.

My understanding is that a hospital can't treat a child unless a parent or legal guardian gives permission anyways, unless it is an emergency.

And I wasn't speaking of minors anyways. I'm talking about adults. And with adults, if it is known that they are illegal the hospital should be able to deny them treatment. It's a business, no different than others, in that they are there to make money. If the government stops supporting these illegal immigrants, than they are taking the risk.

I'm generally talking about emergencies. What do you do with an unconscious adult that shows up without Id? I'm sorry, but I don't think it's good policy to leave a bunch of unhealthy or broken immigrants outside of a hospital, untreated.

July 30th, 2012, 1:50 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

I was always taught to treat the patient and worry about the details later. Life is too important for some of the sordid details that we are fighting about. However, the reckless abuse of the ER system needs to be addressed. If it's not LIFE THREATENING, have a nice day and call your doctor tomorrow should be the policy. ER's are the after hours clinics, and ambulances are the taxis that get them there.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 30th, 2012, 2:46 pm

DJ-B

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: April 5th, 2007, 5:51 pmPosts: 2578

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I'm generally talking about emergencies. What do you do with an unconscious adult that shows up without Id? I'm sorry, but I don't think it's good policy to leave a bunch of unhealthy or broken immigrants outside of a hospital, untreated.

You treat them. Then when they wake up and cant provide documentation you give them a 1 way trip back to mexico.

Build a Better Defense Mechnism agaisnt Illegal Immigration on the border (It would be cheaper to build a ridiculous wall from San Diego to Texas that it is to pay BILLIONS yearly in medical costs for people that should not be in the country in the 1st place. Then Start deporting massively. You want into the US, Do it the right way and fill out the paperwork. just because your country has a physical connection ot the US doesnt mean you have an open invitation to abuse our laws and system, and expect us to defend your right to abuse said system.

July 30th, 2012, 5:22 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

DJ-B wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I'm generally talking about emergencies. What do you do with an unconscious adult that shows up without Id? I'm sorry, but I don't think it's good policy to leave a bunch of unhealthy or broken immigrants outside of a hospital, untreated.

You treat them. Then when they wake up and cant provide documentation you give them a 1 way trip back to mexico.

Build a Better Defense Mechnism agaisnt Illegal Immigration on the border (It would be cheaper to build a ridiculous wall from San Diego to Texas that it is to pay BILLIONS yearly in medical costs for people that should not be in the country in the 1st place. Then Start deporting massively. You want into the US, Do it the right way and fill out the paperwork. just because your country has a physical connection ot the US doesnt mean you have an open invitation to abuse our laws and system, and expect us to defend your right to abuse said system.

I don't mind that system at all, but it's still damn expensive, and provides little to no disincentive for them not to return. Stay here for as long as you can, take advantage, and get a free trip home, is basically what we would be selling.

Personally I think we should bring back the prison labor system. Work them for free for a year or two and then send them home with nothing, see how that grabs them.

July 30th, 2012, 5:24 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3121

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

But there are many people who were born in this country and abuse the system. So again, the problem is not the people but the system itself. Even if you could somehow cut down illegal immigration to zero, you wouldn't fix the problem. You have a sinking ship and you wanna plug one hole.

On top of that, the idea that all illegal immigrants come here to suck off the welfare system is a myth. The numbers of people immigrating here illegally has plunged dramatically in recent years, leading to the logical conclusion that most of them were coming here for construction jobs -- not hospital emergency rooms.

Further, your line about Mexico's geographical position being of no consequence -- it is. Our drug laws are to blame for much of Mexico's current problems, so in many ways, we are partly guilty for the people wanting to run across the border in the first place.

July 30th, 2012, 8:05 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

I read some responses and I just thought of this question that I'm familiar with, but don't know if the rest of you are.

How long does it take to enter the United States LEGALLY?

What country can you immigrate from quicker?

What country has the longest time for immigration?

I think knowing these questions will help give some perspective to people's beliefs.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

July 30th, 2012, 8:28 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

I agree with Blueskies that it's the system that is broken and needs to be taken care of. And I would venture to say that it should not be fixed, but abolished. Nobody, illegal or not, should be allowed to sustain themselves for YEARS in this country without having to work and pay into the economy via taxes. It is utterly ridiculous that you have young women having children with the underlying purpose being to feed her family through that process. More babies = more government money. That needs to stop. Then, her children are "adopted" by grandma, and the state pays grandma for having adopted the child. Ridiculous.

No more welfare. Limit unemployment benefits to six months. No extensions, no excuses, no pity. We have less concern and have cut benefits more for the handicapped than we have for these lazy pieces of sh*t that are feeding off the government teet via the ADC system and welfare. Food stamps and bridge cards aren't being used for their purpose.

You want welfare? Subject yourself to a drug test every week. You want ADC for your child? Have the system buy the required items FOR THE CHILD and send them to the house. I'd rather they paid case workers to check on the kids than to just pay it to these "moms" who spend the money on themselves and neglect the child(ren).

Child born at the hospital to undocumented parents? Oh well, no citizenship. One week later....get out. Parents and all.

America has to take this mentality...You can't save everyone, and you can't support everyone. Take care of your own.

As for the process to become a US citizen, or to obtain legal status in the United States...I don't know what it takes. But I would say that streamlining it isn't the answer either.

First step...go into the jails and deport all the prisoners not here legally. My tax dollars (and yours) shouldn't be housing, feeding and paying these idiots for their criminal activities, which are likely still going on while they are in prison. And if the concern is that they'll just return to the US border and sneak in, then deport them to the middle of the Pacific/Atlantic and drop them off there. If they can swim safely to shore after being left out there...then give them a place on the US Olympic swim team. Otherwise, dump them off and forget them.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

July 31st, 2012, 10:36 am

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

I posted this before, and will again. People need to ACKNOWLEDGE what this is, and how what THEY SAY SHOULD BE DONE will IMPACT this (and everyone else).

Does anyone have any idea what shutting off welfare, food stamps and unemployment insurance will result in, given the data in that chart?

Also - it sounds all fine & dandy & conservative to say things like "drug tests before you get assistance", and "buy items for children & deliver them to the house"... but those things are so hugely impractical and obviously more expensive than they are worth... that the person proposing them kinda looks ... unserious, or unthinking.

So we're going to implement 100% coverage of drug tests only to find a small x percent of them that turn out positive? Who gives the test? Where? How often? Is it given to a wife (or refused to her) based on her husband's test? Do we have ANY idea what a governmental process like that would cost to implement & operate?

The "buy the goods" proposal is so preposterous, logistically, that it isn't even worth discussing from a practicality standpoint. But just how about one simple question to figure out what a person proposing this would prefer: So the government deciding who gets the business is better than a consumer?

Seriously ... and we should be serious when we're trying to solve big problems ... we have massive, structural unemployment problems in our country, and they need to be addressed. "Let them eat cake" is a very bad idea.

July 31st, 2012, 8:38 pm

njroar

Team MVP

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3265

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

I.E. wrote:

I posted this before, and will again. People need to ACKNOWLEDGE what this is, and how what THEY SAY SHOULD BE DONE will IMPACT this (and everyone else).

Does anyone have any idea what shutting off welfare, food stamps and unemployment insurance will result in, given the data in that chart?

Also - it sounds all fine & dandy & conservative to say things like "drug tests before you get assistance", and "buy items for children & deliver them to the house"... but those things are so hugely impractical and obviously more expensive than they are worth... that the person proposing them kinda looks ... unserious, or unthinking.

So we're going to implement 100% coverage of drug tests only to find a small x percent of them that turn out positive? Who gives the test? Where? How often? Is it given to a wife (or refused to her) based on her husband's test? Do we have ANY idea what a governmental process like that would cost to implement & operate?

The "buy the goods" proposal is so preposterous, logistically, that it isn't even worth discussing from a practicality standpoint. But just how about one simple question to figure out what a person proposing this would prefer: So the government deciding who gets the business is better than a consumer?

Seriously ... and we should be serious when we're trying to solve big problems ... we have massive, structural unemployment problems in our country, and they need to be addressed. "Let them eat cake" is a very bad idea.

I bolded the two words, because it's ignorant to even imply that. There's more waste in the welfare system than many want to admit, so the low costs of drug tests (they even sell them over the counter) would save more than enough to cover costs. But I agree that these changes won't fix the above chart.

The main problem isn't being addressed and every solution isn't going to get us back to pre-1999 numbers. The Investment bankers have always operated the same way. In 1933, we divided investment banks from savings banks and had the largest period of growth in the history of the world. Late 70's, Carter repealed a piece of Glass/Steagall that allowed the Savings and Loans scandals in the 80's, which can be shown by the big drop there. in 99, Clinton along with republican congress/senate repealed the rest of Glass/Steagall, allowing the banks to start doing what they always do, but now they also could invest with your savings, your 401k, your pensions, the union pensions and state pensions. Sure they got bailed out, but that didn't replace what was lost. And any growth will just be subject to the same problems until they separate the banks again and prevent this from happening again.

Look again at the chart and you'll see that recessions are normal. Every 10 years we have one. The problem this time is that the system that could help, can't, because everything's still in the same pot. The system changed in 1999, and the bubbles there effected everyone directly this time, just as it did during the great depression. Glass / Steagall started the comeback and we don't have it anymore. Fix that, then the rest of these problems you mention become smaller problems and not that big of a deal in the big picture. We can afford to nitpick about them when the greater problem is solved.

August 1st, 2012, 12:55 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

First of all, nice chart; I imagine that took a lot of time either to make or locate it, thanks for sharing.

Second: What if cutting the welfare program isn't the answer? As it currently exists you can now receive something for nothing. YOu may not be living high on the hog, but at least you're on the stinkin thing. Then if you supplement that with undocumented work, you do pretty well for yourself. Or if Uncle Sam is paying for your housing, utilities, medical care, cell phone, and food through other programs, and maybe even childcare, that Welfare program goes a long way. So what if we change it?

I've said this before in other threads and so I'll share it again here. Utilize Welfare money to create service jobs. Certain people will be background checked, taught, and trained and then utilized as child care providers, meanwhile others will join public service work crews that will pay an average of the Federal Minimum wage that will top out at no more than $10.00/hr. Mandatory 40 hour work week! NO OVERTIME.

Trash pickup, abandon house demolition or rehabilitation, graffiti removal, lot clean up, lawn mowing and so on. These types of jobs alone would help the City of Detroit in a MAJOR way, would provide a sense of accomplishment, and personal responsibility. IF I bust my keister removing graffiti off that wall and I see some honyock come in trying to paint it up again, tell me I'm not gonna pin his ears back!

This program change could be done, and it could help city infrastructures by doing things they don't have time or man power for. It also teaches people HOW to be productive, how to do certain tasks, personal responsibility, and much much more.

The thing is that this does not go according to the plan. The plan is government dependency! For the over all plan to work, free thinkers need to be regulated into giving up free thinking. Those who would seek to do or make it on their own must be FORCED into the government system by regualtion, or bullying. Everyone will participate or you will feel the weight of the Government and the Courts against you. It becomes a process of it being easier to go along with than to fight against mentality. So this is why you'll never see this plan in implimentation.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

August 1st, 2012, 8:17 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Who's your Pres Candidate?

Since no one took me up on my offer to try and answer the 3 questions about immigration, I decided to get the information for you to help educate you on the difficulties coming in. It's quite informative and comes from our immigration department that deals with both documented and undocumented people.

1. How long does it take to enter the United States legally? It depends, since the word "enter legally" specifies only that a person requested a special permission to enter. So a person can enter the US legally in many ways. Work visa, religious visa, fiancee visa, student visa and immigrant visa. I believe that your question has to do with the thousands of undocumented immigrants? If is so, many people believe that they can just request a visa and enter legally. It does not work that way. If they do not qualify for a type of visa, in order to be beneficiary of an immigrant visa they need to have an immediate relative (USC) or a preference category relative - LPR (legal permanent resident). Now this take me to your second question. If they don't have a qualifying relative usually they enter without inspection (EWI), then , some of those immigrants are married to a qualifying relative (USC or LPR), then there is a CONSULAR PROCESS, that would apply to those, but if the person came to the US with most type of visa (there are exceptions), when they are married to a qualifying relative, they can ADJUST STATUS in the United States.

2. What country can you immigrate from quicker? If the petitioner is an immediate relative (USC), it doesn't matter the county, they will immigrate quicker than the other LPR relatives or USC adult children who would fall into the preference category system.

If a person is in this preference system, depends of the country of chargeability. China, Mexico, Philippines, and India, have special columns in this preference system because they have more applications on that long waiting list.

3. What country has the longest time for immigration? The county that has the longest waiting list, therefore time to immigrate are two Philippines and Mexico, Again depends on the category, and this changes every month. But again, remember that if the petitioner is immediate relative, the county does not matter, just the category.

Let me know if you conversation is about undocumented immigrants, I can tell you more about it I hope I didn't confuse you more, but please let me know if you have more questions,