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Well, what are the other counters to moody then? Perish song Arceus is one, but then every team would have to have Perish song to counter Moody. Toxic is another situational counter, but it can miss and substitute stops that too.

You would have Priority taunt or something then, but many prankster users don't perform well fighting other Uber pokemon.

I can't think of anything else, and again, perish song is the only proper counter.

The reason why Moody being banned is ridiculous is not so much the fact that it is objectively not broken in the Übers tier (come to think of it, I do not recall ever arguing anywhere that Moody and one-hit KO moves are not objectively broken (in the Generation V Übers metagame that is, in the case of the latter)). Rather, it is the fact that banning it (along with one-hit KO moves, for that matter) from the Übers tier, given that the Pokémon Arceus is not banned from said tier, is an inconsistent move that does absolutely nothing except promote double standards in the processes of tiering and suspect testing. People can give however many arguments they wish regarding why one-hit KO moves and Moody are broken or how few counters they have, but as long as Arceus remains allowed in Übers, then the standards of what is acceptable and not broken in Übers are so low that it would make absolutely no sense to ban one-hit KO moves or Moody (at least on the grounds that they are "overpowered." People may, of course, still argue that such stuff should be banned on the grounds that they introduce too much luck to the game, though that is an entirely different argument, with which I also happen to disagree).

Arceus, and the inconsistency of allowing it yet banning one-hit KO moves and Moody, is the lynchpin that keeps my views regarding the first and third Smogon Übers suspect tests as they are. If one day Arceus gets banned from the Übers tier, then I may actually reconsider my stance regarding one-hit KO moves and especially Moody.

I value honesty in the same way that I value the sheath of a sword, while I value deceit in the same way that I value the sword itself. Deceit is just another weapon, and a weapon is inherently neither good nor bad. Whether it is good or bad in a situation depends on the ones on whom it is used... on this battlefield of the war between good and evil, commonly referred to as "the world."

The reason why Moody being banned is ridiculous is not so much the fact that it is objectively not broken in the Übers tier (come to think of it, I do not recall ever arguing that Moody and one-hit KO moves are not objectively broken in the Generation V Übers metagame). Rather, it is the fact that banning it (along with one-hit KO moves, for that matter) from the Übers tier, given that the Pokémon Arceus is not banned from said tier, is an inconsistent move that does absolutely nothing except promote double standards in the processes of tiering and suspect testing. People can give however many arguments they wish regarding why one-hit KO moves and Moody are broken or how few counters they have, but as long as Arceus remains allowed in Übers, then the standards of what is acceptable and not broken in Übers are so low that it would make absolutely no sense to ban one-hit KO moves or Moody (at least on the grounds that they are "overpowered." People may, of course, still argue that such stuff should be banned on the grounds that they introduce too much luck to the game, though that is an entirely different argument, with which I also happen to disagree).

Arceus, and the inconsistency of allowing it yet banning one-hit KO moves and Moody, is the lynchpin that keeps my views regarding the first and third Smogon Übers suspect tests as they are. If one day Arceus gets banned from the Übers tier, then I may actually reconsider my stance regarding one-hit KO moves and especially Moody.

Imo the reason Moody should, and is, banned is because it takes out the competitive aspect of the game, and makes it completely luck based. All you have to do is wait until one of your Moody abusers gets and evasion boost and from there its pretty much gg. If it was unbanned pretty much every team would be forced to run Aura Sphere or another move like it, so if Smeargle passes an Evasion boost to Arceus-Ghost, you will be pretty much unable to harm it the rest of the game. Not to mention Smeargle also gets Spore with its Moody. As for OHKO moves, I really don't care either way. Arceus remains unbanned it has some well defined counters and checks, but the main selling point for it being legal is the fact that it still takes skill to use it. You must have some skill to build a team around it to defeat said checks and counters, and you must have some skill to know when to try and come set up. Honestly, the only Arceus that even deserves a suspect test is Arceus-Normal, but barely, and it shouldn't be banned. To sweep with Moody, it requires no skill and is pure luck pn what boosts you get, therefor harming the competitiveness of the tier. Same goes for OHKO moves and weather they hit or not. Purely luck, whereas while Arceus may be able to wreck whole team, it has definite checks and counters and take some skill to use. Its in the S Rank for the Smogon viability ranks for a reason.

The third paragraph of this post of mine addresses the argument you just gave, as well as why I think one-hit KO moves and Moody should have been unbanned in spite of that.

I value honesty in the same way that I value the sheath of a sword, while I value deceit in the same way that I value the sword itself. Deceit is just another weapon, and a weapon is inherently neither good nor bad. Whether it is good or bad in a situation depends on the ones on whom it is used... on this battlefield of the war between good and evil, commonly referred to as "the world."

Banning moody is just wrong....same for OHKO moves
I mean why were they made ? Moody is as Ohko not luck reliable....u can't have an offensive pokemon with OHKO moves.....same for moody....the sets for those 2 r really different...what I mean is luck wouldn't serve as much as u expect
...it has to be planned and well team made...smeargle is a pokemon basically made for smashpass...as much as moody is helpful for it...as much as it's bad...if u get the special attack or evasion boost but ur speed get lowered...what can u do after that ha ?
Same think for OHKO moves...if u don't have a sleep talker fullbulky set...then u should be offencive...so why using OHKO moves when u can 2HKO for sure ?
If moody should be banned...then Ditto (its perfect counter) should be banned too
If OHKO should be banned.....then arceus should be aswell....and finally creat an OP tier with everything banned in UBERS...but ofc none would do so
So be happy guys for the rest of the time left with those bans...or just complain for their release
XY's meta-game is near...I'm predicting that Junishi Masuda tried to avoid his mistakes in past gens
So be aware of the ur uncomfortable changes

I am Red. I conquered the Pokemon World more times that you have ever battled. I stand upon the top of the world from Mt. Silver. Indeed, I am the Living Legend as well as The Undefeated Battler. Millions have groveled under my Smash Pass. I am the Revolutionary Smashpasser! Now, bow down before your master! Do you have what it takes to have me as your Leader?
(12:48:55) ±Porygon: Your rank in Wifi Ubers is 1/36151 [1789 points / 1695 battles]!
WON THE 2011 POKEMON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.

Banning moody is just wrong....same for OHKO moves
I mean why were they made ? Moody is as Ohko not luck reliable....u can't have an offensive pokemon with OHKO moves.....same for moody....the sets for those 2 r really different...what I mean is luck wouldn't serve as much as u expect
...it has to be planned and well team made...smeargle is a pokemon basically made for smashpass...as much as moody is helpful for it...as much as it's bad...if u get the special attack or evasion boost but ur speed get lowered...what can u do after that ha ?
Same think for OHKO moves...if u don't have a sleep talker fullbulky set...then u should be offencive...so why using OHKO moves when u can 2HKO for sure ?
If moody should be banned...then Ditto (its perfect counter) should be banned too
If OHKO should be banned.....then arceus should be aswell....and finally creat an OP tier with everything banned in UBERS...but ofc none would do so
So be happy guys for the rest of the time left with those bans...or just complain for their release
XY's meta-game is near...I'm predicting that Junishi Masuda tried to avoid his mistakes in past gens
So be aware of the ur uncomfortable changes

Okay like...the reason why Impulse and OHKOs is banned was just went over. To say that Moody and OHKOs is not luck based is just...silly. It is entirely luck based. OHKOs have 30% accuracy. That is way to low for it to be used in any way that is not just hoping you are lucky and hit. And Moody is a random stat boost/drop. How can you say that is not luck based?

If moody should be banned...then Ditto (its perfect counter) should be banned too
If OHKO should be banned.....then arceus should be aswell....and finally creat an OP tier with everything banned in UBERS...but ofc none would do so

And this. This just makes no sense. Like it makes so little sense half of me wants to think you are just trolling. What does OHKOs have to do with whether or not Arceus is banned? Technically it already is banned Ubers is a banlist. And if your reason for thinking Ditto should be banned is because of Impulse why should it be banned if Impulse is not even part of the metagame?

So be happy guys for the rest of the time left with those bans...or just complain for their release
XY's meta-game is near...I'm predicting that Junishi Masuda tried to avoid his mistakes in past gens
So be aware of the ur uncomfortable changes

I really really really doubt Gamefreak takes in account the competitive side of Pokemon when designing new games . . .

Smash pass in ubers. It takes absolutely no skill to use and is really easy to use too. Smeargle smashes, spores, passes and gg. If you don't run a phazer, you are screwed. Even if you do, you might still lose. They can switch smeargle into something that doesn't ohaze or have priority and if you switch out, your 'counter' will be destroyed. It is pretty much impossible to stop a +2/+2 dialga, mewtwo, kyogre, kyurem-w, etc.

Smash pass in ubers. It takes absolutely no skill to use and is really easy to use too. Smeargle smashes, spores, passes and gg. If you don't run a phazer, you are screwed. Even if you do, you might still lose. They can switch smeargle into something that doesn't ohaze or have priority and if you switch out, your 'counter' will be destroyed. It is pretty much impossible to stop a +2/+2 dialga, mewtwo, kyogre, kyurem-w, etc.

OMG that is utterly BS
Smashpass is exactly the hardest strategy in the game....and especially in Übers
It's pathetic to say that Smashpass takes absolutely no skills because of the UNCOUNTABLE counters for it
Starting by spinblocking and finishing with Ditto
U can lum all ur team....u can use sableye thundurus blissey or chansey lugia itself is a smashpass counter with its multiscale.. espeon with yawn or psychup or a haze xatu a Hooh in sun a full s.def pokemon with dragon tail and the more to the infinite and u say smashpass takes no skills
Lemme give u one laughable more counter (ghostceus with roar)
Do u want numbers ?
It's a shame to even hear that from any competitive battler
I've been smashpassing for years and I'm the best smashpasser by far
And as a proof here is my CURRENT rank on PS...I got many other but I just won't post'em like the smashpass counters :

So if ur saying smashpass is for noobs or doesn't take skills then let me tell u something : u insult me....so plz think again cuz ur not in a position to argue that with me
Me and Lance (Pokemaster forever who commented here too) r the best players in the Übers tier and we both agree that smashpass is perfectly respectful even more than the other playing styles (btw he is Butterfly Aizen on the ladder) if u want more proofs that we r the best I can give u in private

I am Red. I conquered the Pokemon World more times that you have ever battled. I stand upon the top of the world from Mt. Silver. Indeed, I am the Living Legend as well as The Undefeated Battler. Millions have groveled under my Smash Pass. I am the Revolutionary Smashpasser! Now, bow down before your master! Do you have what it takes to have me as your Leader?
(12:48:55) ±Porygon: Your rank in Wifi Ubers is 1/36151 [1789 points / 1695 battles]!
WON THE 2011 POKEMON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.

But, back to really annoying stuff. I loathed Drizzle users on the Wifi Double Battle system (I was trying to train for the Championship myself), 'cause they always had a Swift Swim user, and my internet sucks preventing me from utilizing the Dream World as I would wish. I swear, that was all anybody on Wifi at times was using.

Now I have a DW Poliwag... And I don't really want to go to the trouble of raising it right now sooooo... I'll probably wait until X and Y to make the final determinations.

Apart from that, I had a reputation in this club I went to for being unbeatable, on account of I always did flat battles (this was in HeartGold days), I always had a Latias to Screen, I used a ParaFlinching Jirachi, and some other cool stuff too.

Smash pass in ubers. It takes absolutely no skill to use and is really easy to use too. Smeargle smashes, spores, passes and gg. If you don't run a phazer, you are screwed. Even if you do, you might still lose. They can switch smeargle into something that doesn't ohaze or have priority and if you switch out, your 'counter' will be destroyed. It is pretty much impossible to stop a +2/+2 dialga, mewtwo, kyogre, kyurem-w, etc.

SmashPass is very easy to stop. All you have to do is sacrifice your Deoxys-S/any support Pokemon with a decent base speed to sleep while bringing Smeargle down to the sash, and then switch to something with priority(Arceus - any forme, Scizor, Scarf Mewtwo/Shaymin-S, etc etc etc.). If smeargle switches out, then it won't be able to set up on anything thanks to Sleep Clause and 1 HP remaining.

Smash pass is effective in ubers but definitely not respectable. It does not take much skill, but good players can pull it off much better than bad players.

Definitely agreeing wish Sasha here, even though I can barely read his post x_x (Ik you're great in Ubers but a little grammar never hurt anyone xD). SmashPass is probably one of the hardest, if not the hardest, type of team to build and play effectively in Ubers. There are counters that just slip into teams, counters people add without even noticing ex: Ghost-Arceus and Lugia. While it may appear cheap and easy from afar, when you look at the metagame as a whole, and take into consideration actually getting set up, it becomes much harder, and is an EXTREMELY RESPECTABLE style of play in the Ubers tier. If you wanted to see a not respectable playstyle in Ubers, you should have played during the Moody metagame. And like Ubers said, it is very easy to stop, so teambuilding must be taken very carefully. You can't just throw in a Smeagle then 5 random sweepers. You'll either get screwed over by Darkrai if you lead with Smeargle, hazards if you lead with something other than Smeargle and they have a spin blocker, or a Roar / Dragon Tail user (which is on almost every Ubers team). I would agree that it would be much easier and less respectable if there were better SmashPassers than things like Gorebyss and Smeargle, but since they're complete crap stat-wise, they can't find many chances to set up, so once again, thought must go into teambuilding on how you aregoing to give them a chance to set-up.

OMG that is utterly BS
Smashpass is exactly the hardest strategy in the game....and especially in ÜbersNo it's not. Smash, spore and pass. That doesn't take a lot of skill. I suppose you need a spinner but that's about it.
It's pathetic to say that Smashpass takes absolutely no skills because of the UNCOUNTABLE counters for it
Starting by spinblocking and finishing with DittoDitto? No, just no. Ditto isn't that effective in ubers. First of all, it's maximum HP is very bad. It can easily be taken out by other pokemon. Also, many pokemon can survive a hit from itself but ditto cannot because of it's HP.
U can lum all ur team....u can use sableye thundurus blissey or chansey lugia itself is a smashpass counter with its multiscale.. espeon with yawn or psychup or a haze xatu a Hooh in sun a full s.def pokemon with dragon tail and the more to the infinite and u say smashpass takes no skillsWould some grammer hurt? Anyways, putting lum berry on your entire team isn't a good way to deal with it. Most pokemon would enjoy a different item such as LO, lefties, etc. the pink blobs don't count as a counter. Using dialga as an example, Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 291-343 (45.32 - 53.42%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 364-429 (55.82 - 65.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both of them are two hit KOed and can't do much back unless they run t-wave. Sableye and thunderus aren't very good pokemon in ubers. Sableye has the niche of stopping physical attackers but that's it. Thunderus can fire off a priority t-wave i guess? And lol for yawn/psych up espeon and haze ho-oh. Those moves are quite frankly, awful on them and they can use that moveslot much better. Ho-oh in the sun? Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 302-356 (72.77 - 85.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A guaranteed KO after SR. A full special defense pokemon with dragon tail? Examples? Girintina and Lugia can't really stop a shell smash sweeper.
Lemme give u one laughable more counter (ghostceus with roar)Lol. You haven't listed one counter that isn't laughable.
Do u want numbers ?
It's a shame to even hear that from any competitive battler
I've been smashpassing for years and I'm the best smashpasser by farGood for you
And as a proof here is my CURRENT rank on PS...I got many other but I just won't post'em like the smashpass counters :

So if ur saying smashpass is for noobs or doesn't take skills then let me tell u something : u insult me....so plz think again cuz ur not in a position to argue that with meI never said it was for noobs, I said it was CHEAP. Read the thread title, it asks what the most annoying pokemon you faced was. I'm sorry if you took that as a personal insult. And saying that I can't argue with you because I'm not #1 on the ladder... Just, wow.
Me and Lance (Pokemaster forever who commented here too) r the best players in the Übers tier and we both agree that smashpass is perfectly respectful even more than the other playing styles (btw he is Butterfly Aizen on the ladder) if u want more proofs that we r the best I can give u in private

Yeah, you haven't really listed any real counters for smash pass. It is cheap because you can easily get swept. At the very least, you cripple one of your oppoment's pokemon with sleep. It requires a spinner and SR. Also, please don't use your rank as an argument. Just because I am not "the best" does not mean I am not qualified to post in this thread.

1. You send out Smeargle against a pokemon slower than it.
2. Entry hazards are removed
3. The pokemon you're smash passing against has no priority moves or taunt.
4. Remove weather like Sandstorm and (never seen)hail.

No you've already got four conditions that make Smashpass difficult to pull off. And considering that nearly every pokemon can learn taunt, there's always a chance that you could be surprised by an unlikely taunt-user, and since your whole team is based on Smashpass, that could cost you the match.

Now, Smashpassing in Ubers is much more difficult than it is in any other tier, mainly because of all the pokemon that have base 90 speed, so you really don't know which ones you outspeed with Smeargle. You'll have to scout out pokemon that have no investment in speed, and then sack a pokemon to ensure that Smeargle gets in safely. Plus, rapid spinning entry hazards out can itself pose a problem.

So you see, though it may seem like there's no skill to Smashpassing, it is definitely not so.

1. You send out Smeargle against a pokemon slower than it.
2. Entry hazards are removed
3. The pokemon you're smash passing against has no priority moves or taunt.
4. Remove weather like Sandstorm and (never seen)hail.

No you've already got four conditions that make Smashpass difficult to pull off. And considering that nearly every pokemon can learn taunt, there's always a chance that you could be surprised by an unlikely taunt-user, and since your whole team is based on Smashpass, that could cost you the match.

Now, Smashpassing in Ubers is much more difficult than it is in any other tier, mainly because of all the pokemon that have base 90 speed, so you really don't know which ones you outspeed with Smeargle. You'll have to scout out pokemon that have no investment in speed, and then sack a pokemon to ensure that Smeargle gets in safely. Plus, rapid spinning entry hazards out can itself pose a problem.

So you see, though it may seem like there's no skill to Smashpassing, it is definitely not so.

1) no you don't
Turn 1: smeargle smashes, oppoment brings smeargle down to sash
Turn 2: spore
Turn 3: Pass
You don't have to switch smeargle in against somebody slower.
2) most good teams have a spinner
3)what pokemon have priority in ubers? Even if they do have priority, do as follows.
Turn 1: priority bring smeargle diwn to sash, smeargle spores
Turn 2: smash
Turn 3 pass and sweep
4) hail is pretty much never used. As for sand, run kyogre or groundon. The two are actually decent recievers of the boost. They can fit easily on most teams and are very vertasile.

@Emboarrocks because to lazy to quote: I'll add more to this when I get home.
-Ditto is a superb Pokemon in Ubers because it can stop set-up sweepers in their tracks and either kill them or force them out and steal their sweep.
-He said Haze Xatu which isn't that uncommon in Ubers
-Same for Yawn Espeon
-I'll continure when I get home from school

Yeah, you haven't really listed any real counters for smash pass. It is cheap because you can easily get swept. At the very least, you cripple one of your oppoment's pokemon with sleep. It requires a spinner and SR. Also, please don't use your rank as an argument. Just because I am not "the best" does not mean I am not qualified to post in this thread.

Oh trust me ur argument is not even close to logic or even the metagameplay
"U haven't listen any real counters for smashpass" <=== r u serious or blind ? LoL
Also u can't cripple any pokemon with sleep if SR is on....almost no pokemon is slower than smeargle in Ubers unless it's a support pokemon...which means it will have lum or easily sacrificeable or even stand hits till wakes up
Also my rank ia important to show that I have enough experience to talk....otherwise I will sound stupid...no offence

Originally Posted by T-Bolt

Smashpass can only be pulled of effectively if-

1. You send out Smeargle against a pokemon slower than it.
2. Entry hazards are removed
3. The pokemon you're smash passing against has no priority moves or taunt.
4. Remove weather like Sandstorm and (never seen)hail.

No you've already got four conditions that make Smashpass difficult to pull off. And considering that nearly every pokemon can learn taunt, there's always a chance that you could be surprised by an unlikely taunt-user, and since your whole team is based on Smashpass, that could cost you the match.

Now, Smashpassing in Ubers is much more difficult than it is in any other tier, mainly because of all the pokemon that have base 90 speed, so you really don't know which ones you outspeed with Smeargle. You'll have to scout out pokemon that have no investment in speed, and then sack a pokemon to ensure that Smeargle gets in safely. Plus, rapid spinning entry hazards out can itself pose a problem.

So you see, though it may seem like there's no skill to Smashpassing, it is definitely not so.

Someone understands smashpass here
U shouldn't forget the second most important condition "there should be a stealth rock in the opponent's team to break sashes and heavily damage ho-oh and importantly Lugia to break its multiscale so u can spam after that"
This condition alongside the condition #2 that u sited r 2 impossible conditions unless ur opponent is a noob...which we don't care about anyway
Ofc there r more conditions like not sending smeargle against a scald or thunder kyogre (which kyogre doesn't have one of those ?) Or any Dtail pokemon (for sure )
And many others

Originally Posted by emboarrocks

1) no you don't
Turn 1: smeargle smashes, oppoment brings smeargle down to sash
Turn 2: spore
Turn 3: Pass
You don't have to switch smeargle in against somebody slower.
2) most good teams have a spinner
3)what pokemon have priority in ubers? Even if they do have priority, do as follows.
Turn 1: priority bring smeargle diwn to sash, smeargle spores
Turn 2: smash
Turn 3 pass and sweep
4) hail is pretty much never used. As for sand, run kyogre or groundon. The two are actually decent recievers of the boost. They can fit easily on most teams and are very vertasile.

If u see Pokemon including smashpass as simple as u imagine....then I don't think that I have to argue with u anymore
Still I will try to convince u with LOGIC
1) obviously to do this u need the CONDITIONS and the OPPORTUNITY itself to do that
2) all good opps teams have a spinblocker
3)what if the pokemon wakes up at the 1st or the 2nd turn ? He has 66.66% chance to do that just so u know
Also what if ur opp switches and roar u out or OHKOs ur dialga (I mean every single team has a roar or dragon tail)
4) if u run groudon in ur team...thunder won't be usable anymore which means lugia cab now whirlwind u EZ (unless ur thinking of taking that risk everytime lol)
If u run kyogre u r in more security but u obviously know that every sand team has a big kyogre counter

Do not dare to argue with logic after all this....and do not dare to say that smashpass is cheap or takes no skills at all because people will laugh at u after this.......now GG

I am Red. I conquered the Pokemon World more times that you have ever battled. I stand upon the top of the world from Mt. Silver. Indeed, I am the Living Legend as well as The Undefeated Battler. Millions have groveled under my Smash Pass. I am the Revolutionary Smashpasser! Now, bow down before your master! Do you have what it takes to have me as your Leader?
(12:48:55) ±Porygon: Your rank in Wifi Ubers is 1/36151 [1789 points / 1695 battles]!
WON THE 2011 POKEMON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.

IMO Gorebyss is the better SmashPasser, since at least she doesn't have pathetic bulk and thus she can use a White Herb instead of relying on Focus Sash, can use her Shell Smash boosts to damage something, can use rain to her advantage if her opponent has a Kyogre, etc etc etc.

IMO Gorebyss is the better SmashPasser, since at least she doesn't have pathetic bulk and thus she can use a White Herb instead of relying on Focus Sash, can use her Shell Smash boosts to damage something, can use rain to her advantage if her opponent has a Kyogre, etc etc etc.

You can put a White Herb on the SmashPass receiver and it will restore its stats when it comes into battle. Plus, unlike Gorebyss, Smeargle will almost always pass, and, if used properly, can even get in the SmashPass receiver unscathed.

Oh trust me ur argument is not even close to logic or even the metagameplay
"U haven't listen any real counters for smashpass" <=== r u serious or blind ? LoL
Also u can't cripple any pokemon with sleep if SR is on....almost no pokemon is slower than smeargle in Ubers unless it's a support pokemon...which means it will have lum or easily sacrificeable or even stand hits till wakes up
Also my rank ia important to show that I have enough experience to talk....otherwise I will sound stupid...no offence

First of all, nice triple post. Nice grammer too. I could understand everything you wantd to say perfectly. Which one of your counters is valid? Haze and yawn aren't very useful on the two pokemon. Haze isn't because if the oppoment sets up, xatu is going to get koed anyways, yawn because the oppoment can just switch out. As i showed with my calcs, all of your counters are 2HKOed. Also, support pokemon aren't sacricifiable. They are very important in that they can set up hazards, phaze and stop sweepers. What do you mean that you can't cripple any pokemon with SR on? I'm assuming you mean sleep clause. I said you can cripple ONE pokemon.

Originally Posted by SASHA the master

If u see Pokemon including smashpass as simple as u imagine....then I don't think that I have to argue with u anymore
Still I will try to convince u with LOGIC
1) obviously to do this u need the CONDITIONS and the OPPORTUNITY itself to do that
2) all good opps teams have a spinblocker
3)what if the pokemon wakes up at the 1st or the 2nd turn ? He has 66.66% chance to do that just so u know
Also what if ur opp switches and roar u out or OHKOs ur dialga (I mean every single team has a roar or dragon tail)
4) if u run groudon in ur team...thunder won't be usable anymore which means lugia cab now whirlwind u EZ (unless ur thinking of taking that risk everytime lol)
If u run kyogre u r in more security but u obviously know that every sand team has a big kyogre counter

Do not dare to argue with logic after all this....and do not dare to say that smashpass is cheap or takes no skills at all because people will laugh at u after this.......now GG

Yeah... You have great logic.
1)what opportunity and conditions? You send in smeargle after one of your pokemon has died (or you lead with it), smash, spore and pass. All you require is a spinner and kyogre/groundon.
2) not really. All good STALL teams do. Most normal ones don't
3) source for 66%? Maybe i just have awful luck but i never wake up after 2 turns. How would the oppoment switch? Smash, spore, pass. Tell me when they would switch.
4) i did not understand the part about lugia but anyways...
How many uber pokemon have thunder? Either way, i would never run thunder unless its a rain team. I know that every sand team has a good kyogre counter. That said, nothing can truely counter kyogre. For example, specs kyogre destroys most of it's "counters". You ate acting like kyogre and groundon are a hinderence to teams. Lets me assure you, they are not. If you are #1 on the ladder and you think that kyogre/groundon are a hinderance, then i really don't have much to say to you.

Yeah... You have great logic.
1)what opportunity and conditions? You send in smeargle after one of your pokemon has died (or you lead with it), smash, spore and pass. All you require is a spinner and kyogre/groundon.
2) not really. All good STALL teams do. Most normal ones don't
3) source for 66%? Maybe i just have awful luck but i never wake up after 2 turns. How would the oppoment switch? Smash, spore, pass. Tell me when they would switch.
4) i did not understand the part about lugia but anyways...
How many uber pokemon have thunder? Either way, i would never run thunder unless its a rain team. I know that every sand team has a good kyogre counter. That said, nothing can truely counter kyogre. For example, specs kyogre destroys most of it's "counters". You ate acting like kyogre and groundon are a hinderence to teams. Lets me assure you, they are not. If you are #1 on the ladder and you think that kyogre/groundon are a hinderance, then i really don't have much to say to you.

1) Opportunity - You actually got that right. When something has died, or possibly when you know they're setting up rocks/spikes, but that is risky. Conditions - Hazards must be clear, Lugia and/or Ho-oh should preferably be eliminated or you should have rocks up, opposing focus sash users must be gone, no perish song users, no sand or hail, Xatu and Espeon should be eliminated since they bounce your Spore back and can Haze/Yawn on the switch (Haze on Xatu is seen less, but it also gets Thunder Wave. And Yawn Espeon is quite common in the Ubers metagame, study up), Roar and Dragon Tail users should also be gone. So yeah, there's a good amount of things that can prevent your win condition.
2) Another thing showing you don't know the Meta. The majority of Ubers teams have Arceus-Ghost or one of Giratina's forms on them. Sableye is also seen on some teams to handle Extremekiller Arceus.
3) They can switch into Espy or Xatu when you Smash,or go into Groudon so they can get weather up. You do have a point in that it is hard to switch, but not impossible. And he's right about the 66%. Its much safer to stay in and spam an attack while sleeping. Or they might have a Sleep Talk user specifically to beat Smeargle and Darkrai (Scarfed Terrakion or Scarf Heracross)
4) He's saying if you run Groudon on your team, and have sun up, Thunder's accuracy drops and makes Lugia hard to handle. Although most Groudon run Stone Edge so Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż. And I use Thunder on both my Weatherless teams and Sand teams in OU and Ubers because rain is extremely common, so most of the time you're firing off a 120 bp move with 100% acc and a 30% chance to paralyze. And lol, he never said they are a hindrance, he said that they are counter-productive when used on the same team when playing SmashPass since Dialga (The best Smash receiver imo) loses a 100% accurate Thunder if Groudon was the last on the field.

So yeah, while his grammar is meh, he knows what he's talking about, and he know the metagame much much better than you, and he'll continue to check you everytime...

1) Opportunity - You actually got that right. When something has died, or possibly when you know they're setting up rocks/spikes, but that is risky. Conditions - Hazards must be clear, Lugia and/or Ho-oh should preferably be eliminated or you should have rocks up, opposing focus sash users must be gone, no perish song users, no sand or hail, Xatu and Espeon should be eliminated since they bounce your Spore back and can Haze/Yawn on the switch (Haze on Xatu is seen less, but it also gets Thunder Wave. And Yawn Espeon is quite common in the Ubers metagame, study up), Roar and Dragon Tail users should also be gone. So yeah, there's a good amount of things that can prevent your win condition.
2) Another thing showing you don't know the Meta. The majority of Ubers teams have Arceus-Ghost or one of Giratina's forms on them. Sableye is also seen on some teams to handle Extremekiller Arceus.
3) They can switch into Espy or Xatu when you Smash,or go into Groudon so they can get weather up. You do have a point in that it is hard to switch, but not impossible. And he's right about the 66%. Its much safer to stay in and spam an attack while sleeping. Or they might have a Sleep Talk user specifically to beat Smeargle and Darkrai (Scarfed Terrakion or Scarf Heracross)
4) He's saying if you run Groudon on your team, and have sun up, Thunder's accuracy drops and makes Lugia hard to handle. Although most Groudon run Stone Edge so Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż. And I use Thunder on both my Weatherless teams and Sand teams in OU and Ubers because rain is extremely common, so most of the time you're firing off a 120 bp move with 100% acc and a 30% chance to paralyze. And lol, he never said they are a hindrance, he said that they are counter-productive when used on the same team when playing SmashPass since Dialga (The best Smash receiver imo) loses a 100% accurate Thunder if Groudon was the last on the field.

So yeah, while his grammar is meh, he knows what he's talking about, and he know the metagame much much better than you, and he'll continue to check you everytime...

1)Hazards clear: Fair point, you do need a spinner. However, forrtress/ excadrill aren't terrible and can actually help your team, fortress by setting up hazards and excadrill by checking a variety of threats/sweeping.
Lugia and Ho-oh gone/SR/Focus sash: I grouped the three together because imo, they are closely related in that setting up SR will solve the problem. SR isn't that hard to fit on your team and is pretty much nessecary.
No perish song users: Very uncommon in ubers. None of the users have very strong bulk so taking them out is easy.
No sand or hail: As I said, groundon and kyogre are very easy to fit on teams.
Espeon/Xatu gone: Not that hard as they are pretty frail. If absolutely nessecary, you can smash even with them there and just skip the spore step. I don't see a lot of espeons on the ladder and yawn seemed like a ridiculous move so I just assumed that it hardly existed. Sorry about that.
Roar/Dragon tail users gone: Most roar/dragon tail users are KOed by a pokemon at +2. You can also spore them or use magic coat.
2)According to the usage stats, there is a 48% chance to see one of them on a team. He implied that there was one on every team like SR is on every team.
3)Espeon and xatu were only seen on about 4.7% of teams (both of them added together). The chances are that your oppoment will not have them. Heracross isn't really good and the only niche it has is countering darkrai and i guess smeagle. terrakion on the other hand is pretty good but many people would be hesitant to add sleep talk on it as it takes up a moveslot.
4)For the lugia thing, most of the thunder users don't counter lugia anyways. The only user of a electric move that always counters lugia is zekrom but that's with fusion bolt. Dialga also gets t-bolt which is the better option as groundon is also common.

3)Espeon and xatu were only seen on about 4.7% of teams (both of them added together). The chances are that your oppoment will not have them. Heracross isn't really good and the only niche it has is countering darkrai and i guess smeagle. terrakion on the other hand is pretty good but many people would be hesitant to add sleep talk on it as it takes up a moveslot.
4)For the lugia thing, most of the thunder users don't counter lugia anyways. The only user of a electric move that always counters lugia is zekrom but that's with fusion bolt. Dialga also gets t-bolt which is the better option as groundon is also common.

1) How is Heracross not good? Just being a counter to Darkrai means you're viable in Ubers. Plus it has access to two 120 power STAB moves, a great Attack stat and Moxie.

2) Aside from the fact that Lugia sucks anyway, Thunder > Thunderbolt because of Kyogre infesting the Uber metagame. Kyogre would laugh at a Genesect's +1 Thunderbolt if Genesect is running a physically based mixed set, while +1 Thunder would deal massive damage.