^^ yeah, I believe this is mostly how it is. So many of these sports are full of performance enhancing drugs... that the argument can be made that you SHOULD be on them to be at a level playing field - I believe that's what Armstrong argued, anyway.

He certainly did not argue this. He argued that he wasn't doping, and that those who accused him of doping were civilly liable for the falsehood of their accusations.

Only seven years after he testified under oath otherwise does he admit the extent and severity of his doping.

Again, if you think Armstrong's misbehavior begins and ends at simply taking performance-enhancing drugs, you probably also mistake Oprah for a journalist.

Sorry, to be clear - I have not watched the Oprah interview... but the quotes I've seen from it indicated that he felt he was "competing on a level playing field" when he was doping - that he didn't view it as cheating, because he felt everyone was doing it.

THAT is what I was referring to.

12ax7 wrote:

Captain Corea wrote:

^^ yeah, I believe this is mostly how it is. So many of these sports are full of performance enhancing drugs... that the argument can be made that you SHOULD be on them to be at a level playing field - I believe that's what Armstrong argued, anyway.

I'd like to see an actual list of substances and doses he's "guilty" of using.

It's like Hollywood actors who "get in shape" for movies. Many of them use performance enhancing drugs to achieve the results. One would have to be naive to think that they wouldn't when they've got multi-million dollar contracts at stake.

Absolutely. Not only do they have "trainers" at their disposal... but they've got everything else available to them as well. The thing is though... you'll never hear of tests for this sort of thing. No one is going to ask Hue Jackman to pee in a cup for anabolics... but his added muscle will be on posters pulling ppl into the theaters.

Personally, I like how the sport of bodybuilding does it. You've got tested events, and .... non-tested events. Want to compete "clean" - go into the tested events. Don't give a toss, do the other ones.

I've made no secret on this forum about my previous use of anabolics - and have no moral judgement about those who do use them. BUT, I agree that it should be out in the open. No need for secrets, IMO.

I didn't want to name names, but it's pretty obvious which of the stars are benefiting from anabolic steroids.

I think the only Hollywood actor who's ever been completely open about it is Mickey Rourke. Heck, even Schwarzenegger, of all people, denied it for years.

Throughout our talk, Armstrong's shadow looms large. She has nothing but contempt for him. I suggest his apology could help clean up the sport, and the world might forgive him. She looks appalled. "He's a criminal. He has stolen people's livelihoods. There must be thousands of clean athletes scrabbling around on the bottom end of the employment structure because that's all that's possible, and he's taken away their career."

Should he be in jail? "Of course, Lance Armstrong should go to jail. At the moment his punishment is not in line with the crimes he has committed. For the sport to genuinely clean itself up, the punishment has to be severe so not one would even think of doping." Does she think he ever will be? "If he's lied under oath, there should be legal consequences." The worst thing is, she says, he'll be back on the millionaire's merry-go-round, post-Oprah. "They win races, they get paid, they get the fortune. Then if they get caught they admit it, they cry, then they write a book about it and make another fortune. So they win when they take drugs and they win after they're caught. And that is horrendous."

I have no problem with the idea of some false, doping hero riding some stupid bike being a catalyst for millions and millions of dollars going to cancer-fighting causes.

Seriously, that sounds like a great bargain. Some idiots get duped and this guy gets some ill-earned trphies and whatever other "horrors" occured, but in return millions go to cancer research and helping survivors?

I have no problem with the idea of some false, doping hero riding some stupid bike being a catalyst for millions and millions of dollars going to cancer-fighting causes.

Seriously, that sounds like a great bargain. Some idiots get duped and this guy gets some ill-earned trphies and whatever other "horrors" occured, but in return millions go to cancer research and helping survivors?

I'd take that deal again in a heartbeat.

Part of the problem was that not much of that money went to actual research.

so did everyone else who knows anything about the sports industry and isnt niave.

Rule of thumb, if being stronger/faster/bigger will make the pro athletes better at their sport (so all sports) then the people who are winning are all taking drugs and cheating. ALLL of them. Look at sarena williams....

Anyway, Lance Armstrong won 7 tours in a row and people who thought this was possible to do without doping were very niave.

That being said In those 7 years if they stripped the titles from everyone who has admitted or been caught cheating the highest place finish in 7 years would have been 4th place.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I have been interested since I was introduced to this as a Freshmen at a ritsy Cali school. My psychology teacher was big into body building and brought in his trainer one day to tell us about drugs in sports. His trainer had trained britney spears and other celebs as well as many pro athletes.

He told us that "rule of thumb" i posted and explained everything. It was a huge eye opener to me. Also he explained how it goes way beyond pro sports and into highschool stuff especially with football. The ammount of parents who will drive to mexico to get their kids HGH so that they can be the star football player in highschool and get scholarships in college. The sporting world is a crazy place.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I have been interested since I was introduced to this as a Freshmen at a ritsy Cali school. My psychology teacher was big into body building and brought in his trainer one day to tell us about drugs in sports. His trainer had trained britney spears and other celebs as well as many pro athletes.

He told us that "rule of thumb" i posted and explained everything. It was a huge eye opener to me. Also he explained how it goes way beyond pro sports and into highschool stuff especially with football. The ammount of parents who will drive to mexico to get their kids HGH so that they can be the star football player in highschool and get scholarships in college. The sporting world is a crazy place.

The scandal is more than about an individual athlete who chose to dope and thus won championships. Armstrong ran a drug ring, he forced his teammates to dope, threatened those who spoke out about his doping, lied under oath about doping, and sued those who told the truth about it.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I have been interested since I was introduced to this as a Freshmen at a ritsy Cali school. My psychology teacher was big into body building and brought in his trainer one day to tell us about drugs in sports. His trainer had trained britney spears and other celebs as well as many pro athletes.

He told us that "rule of thumb" i posted and explained everything. It was a huge eye opener to me. Also he explained how it goes way beyond pro sports and into highschool stuff especially with football. The ammount of parents who will drive to mexico to get their kids HGH so that they can be the star football player in highschool and get scholarships in college. The sporting world is a crazy place.

The scandal is more than about an individual athlete who chose to dope and thus won championships. Armstrong ran a drug ring, he forced his teammates to dope, threatened those who spoke out about his doping, lied under oath about doping, and sued those who told the truth about it.

I agree with you there, what he did was messed up. He was probably the worst in history when it comes to his actions to hide the facts.

As for phelps I would def say he was cheating if it werent for his inhuman like body proportions that could be the reason he is better than everyone else. But wouldn't be surprised if he was using drugs too as they are a huge part of high level swimming.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I have been interested since I was introduced to this as a Freshmen at a ritsy Cali school. My psychology teacher was big into body building and brought in his trainer one day to tell us about drugs in sports. His trainer had trained britney spears and other celebs as well as many pro athletes.

He told us that "rule of thumb" i posted and explained everything. It was a huge eye opener to me. Also he explained how it goes way beyond pro sports and into highschool stuff especially with football. The ammount of parents who will drive to mexico to get their kids HGH so that they can be the star football player in highschool and get scholarships in college. The sporting world is a crazy place.

The scandal is more than about an individual athlete who chose to dope and thus won championships. Armstrong ran a drug ring, he forced his teammates to dope, threatened those who spoke out about his doping, lied under oath about doping, and sued those who told the truth about it.

I agree with you there, what he did was messed up. He was probably the worst in history when it comes to his actions to hide the facts.

As for phelps I would def say he was cheating if it werent for his inhuman like body proportions that could be the reason he is better than everyone else. But wouldn't be surprised if he was using drugs too as they are a huge part of high level swimming.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I have been interested since I was introduced to this as a Freshmen at a ritsy Cali school. My psychology teacher was big into body building and brought in his trainer one day to tell us about drugs in sports. His trainer had trained britney spears and other celebs as well as many pro athletes.

He told us that "rule of thumb" i posted and explained everything. It was a huge eye opener to me. Also he explained how it goes way beyond pro sports and into highschool stuff especially with football. The ammount of parents who will drive to mexico to get their kids HGH so that they can be the star football player in highschool and get scholarships in college. The sporting world is a crazy place.

The scandal is more than about an individual athlete who chose to dope and thus won championships. Armstrong ran a drug ring, he forced his teammates to dope, threatened those who spoke out about his doping, lied under oath about doping, and sued those who told the truth about it.

I agree with you there, what he did was messed up. He was probably the worst in history when it comes to his actions to hide the facts.

As for phelps I would def say he was cheating if it werent for his inhuman like body proportions that could be the reason he is better than everyone else. But wouldn't be surprised if he was using drugs too as they are a huge part of high level swimming.

If you are at all interestedin this stuff you should watch the docu. called Bigger, Stronger, Faster it gives a pretty balanced view of drugs in sports.

I just watched it. Good documentary, raising an important question, is it a moral or a health issue? Or neither? I'm on the fence on this one.

With all the cyclists caught doping over the last 15 years the sport has become a joke. The same with the Olympics, it's almost become a contest who's the last to get caught. Maybe it's time to concede that doping is just part of being the best athlete you can be. A lot of what professional athletes put themselves through isn't healthy, the intensity, training through injuries, extreme caloric intake, yo-yo dieting...it's just inevitable to be the best out of millions of people you need to be extreme, and anything taken to extreme isn't healthy.

On the other hand, these athletes are role models for our kids. There's good and bad things about that, and doping adds a level of complexity to that conversation.

Yeah, I just watched that vid again. Had watched it years ago, but wanted a refresher.

After watching it though, I found it less to be about steroids (on which, tons of time was spent), and more to be about the guy's family, and why they were "obsessed" with getting bigger strong faster.

When it comes to death from steroids... the main one trotted out in that vid was the suicide of Taylor Hooton. I felt bad for that dad to lose his son, but his focus on the steroid use seemed almost odd to me. The kid seemed to have tons of issues otherwise.

Same with Lyle Alzado. The focus on steroids, as opposed to the NUMEROUS other drugs he used, baffles me a bit. It reminds me of when someone dies from fan death here - sure, they ignore the alcohol in the system, and poor health of the victim - but instead the focus MUST be on the fan.