Donald Trump, the prophetic despised one of Daniel 11:21?

a reply to: chr0naut
Actually, it was a total fail, just as Isaiah's prophecy about it was.

Ezekiel also prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, which would never again be rebuilt (26:7-14, but Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre
failed to take the city, and Tyre still exists today. A curious thing about this prophecy against Tyre is that Isaiah also predicted that Tyre would
be destroyed, but, whereas Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be permanently destroyed and "nevermore have any being," Isaiah prophesied that it would
be made desolate only for a period of 70 years. A comparison of these two prophecies is an easy way to show the silliness of claiming that prophecy
fulfillment proves the inspiration of the Bible.
As noted in my exchanges with Matthew Hogan on Ezekiel's tirade against Tyre (September/October 1997; November/December 1997), Ezekiel clearly
predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, become a bare rock and a place for spreading nets, and would be built no more forever (26:7-14, 21; 27:28;
28:19). As Ezekiel did, Isaiah in his prophecies of destruction against the nations around Israel also predicted the overthrow of Tyre. In 23:1, he
said, "The burden of Tyre. Howl, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is
revealed to them." The prophecy continued in typical fashion through the chapter, predicting waste and devastation, but beginning in verse 13, Isaiah
indicated that the destruction of Tyre would be only temporary, not permanent:

So Ezekiel predicted a permanent destruction of Tyre that would last forever, but Isaiah predicted just a temporary destruction that would last only
70 years or the estimated lifetime of one king. The fact is that neither prophecy was ever fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre forever, and
it was never made desolate for a period of 70 years. Even when Alexander the Great succeeded in his campaign against Tyre in 332 B. C., the city was
soon rebuilt (Wallace B. Fleming, The History of Tyre, Columbia University Press, p. 64) and has existed ever since.

I doubt that any Biblical prophecy refers to the United States of America or what happens within it.

I find it far more likely that the US is either not mentioned because it's not relevant or that if it is mentioned it is mentioned symbolically in the
sense that it is destroyed, but it will not be a major player by name because there would have been no way for any of the prophets of those time to
have named it.

originally posted by: Transparent
Never before in the history of the US has anyone in it's political world shaken the foundations of its political stars, parties & citizens. A powerful
influential businessman, no experience & without any held office knowledge rises past career politicans to seek the highest office of the most
powerful super power. His speech & conduct is raw. His ability to change his stance whenever he chooses is uncanny. The party platform that he runs on
either outwardly or secretively despises him but only votes for him because they want their party running the highest office in the land. The restless
sea of oppsosers fight (figuratively & literally) against his rise to power. The world's news media outlets, politicans & people call what is taking
place unprecdent. But because of US voters tired of the politicians in office they seek not to care about political correctness & the same way of
politics. Daniel 11:21-45 speaks of such a man who will govern at such a time. This time will lead to the most chaotic event in human history. All
secular evidence is pointing to Donald Trump as this person & our time as Daniel's spoken time.

That was Antiochus Epihanes, I am not sure Donald Trump will be that successful.

If God had wanted the US to be named it would not have been a problem. The US was not mentioned by name because God wants us to use wisdom &
discernment. See Daniel 12:4; 8-10, Rev 17:9-10. Why would you think that the most influential nation in the history of the world would play no role
in God's purpose? It plays the greatest role in modern Bible prophecy & the end times with its king.

a reply to: Transparent
Well it would work if you use "replacement theology" in making Christians the replacement of Israel. But it cant be because Israel is Israel and has
special kingdom promises made only to them.

originally posted by: Transparent
So far I've been called wrong & anti christ but the evidence I provide tells the opposite. I know someone has the ability to say who the top dog world
power is? So far the burden of proof of this thread & Trump not being this king of Daniel 11:21 lies upon the nay sayers. I welcome all proof &
evidence.

Since you asked for it let's toss some possible evidence into the mix. To start with I give you the curse of Malachi.

After the death of Jesus Christ Israel went through a period of rebellion and strife that ended with the Bar Kochba revolt and the diaspora. And for
1900 years roughly that general piece of real estate was blighted and mostly abandoned. But the question becomes "why"? If the Jews were God's chosen
people then the last 1900 years make no sense. Unless something had happened. And after looking I figured it out. The first century Jews had
managed to trigger this "curse of Malachi" as mentioned in Malachi 4.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a
curse.

And Jesus Christ had this to say about it.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son
of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Simply put if John the Baptist had been the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet then he wasn't supposed to die the way he did. By killing him the
first century Jews managed to trigger the curse.

So then I figured out the length and details of the curse. Between Leviticus 26 and the book of Hosea I got it. But it was Hosea 6-2 that gives the
length of the curse.
Hosea 6

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2nd Peter 3
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The curse that was placed on Israel was 2000 years long. Which means that if you bring the prophesy of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 into consideration
then it means the 70 week prophesy is still running. The gap between the 69th and 70th week is being filled in by the curse. The "end of days" comes
at the end of the curse and the 70th week.

And doing the math the end of the curse falls in the 2020s. The 2000th anniversary of the death of John the Baptist. It seems to be a good time to
start looking for Antichrist candidates And based on a reading of Daniel I could make the case that the "Assyrian" comes from America.

More evidence. Was 9-11 predicted in Daniel? Consider this.
Daniel 11
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by
his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

I would point out that this is a perfect description of the event surrounding 9-11. A group of middle eastern rulers combining their forces to agitate
against a powerful country that looked Greek to Daniel. And I would point out that 19 of the 20 hijackers were Saudi Arabians. The richest country in
the middle east.

Now by itself that's interesting but now add the prophesy of Daniel 8 to this as well. The battle of the ram and goat.

In the story the ram is extending it's power and influence until the goat appears on the scene. The goat attacks the ram and breaks it's horns. Then
kills it. And this is what that means according to Daniel 8.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Before the great horn of the goat is broken it conquers 2 nations in the middle east. So I would point out based on this the United States is
actually a predecessor of the end time state of the Antichrist. Along with some European nations.

And this would mean the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is an American.

So is the Antichrist Trump? Or maybe Obama. Could be. But it's too early to tell yet. The "new Nato" alliance has yet to form.

Maybe, maybe not. But if my hypothesis on the curse of Malachi is correct then that pretty much means we're living in a premillennial world and time
is running out on it. And while the AC may not be Trump it would appear he comes out of America if America is the goat of Daniel 8. The fact that we
have 3 events in recent history that seem to conform to Daniel's visions of the end times means this does bear watching.

The 4th event of his prophesies is a bit unnerving. But if it happens it would be conclusive evidence we're in the Apocalypse.

Daniel 11
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor
according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Daniel 8

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four
winds of heaven.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark
sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the
mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy
many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: chr0naut
Actually, it was a total fail, just as Isaiah's prophecy about it was.

Ezekiel also prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, which would never again be rebuilt (26:7-14, but Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre
failed to take the city, and Tyre still exists today. A curious thing about this prophecy against Tyre is that Isaiah also predicted that Tyre would
be destroyed, but, whereas Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be permanently destroyed and "nevermore have any being," Isaiah prophesied that it would
be made desolate only for a period of 70 years. A comparison of these two prophecies is an easy way to show the silliness of claiming that prophecy
fulfillment proves the inspiration of the Bible.
As noted in my exchanges with Matthew Hogan on Ezekiel's tirade against Tyre (September/October 1997; November/December 1997), Ezekiel clearly
predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, become a bare rock and a place for spreading nets, and would be built no more forever (26:7-14, 21; 27:28;
28:19). As Ezekiel did, Isaiah in his prophecies of destruction against the nations around Israel also predicted the overthrow of Tyre. In 23:1, he
said, "The burden of Tyre. Howl, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is
revealed to them." The prophecy continued in typical fashion through the chapter, predicting waste and devastation, but beginning in verse 13, Isaiah
indicated that the destruction of Tyre would be only temporary, not permanent:

So Ezekiel predicted a permanent destruction of Tyre that would last forever, but Isaiah predicted just a temporary destruction that would last only
70 years or the estimated lifetime of one king. The fact is that neither prophecy was ever fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre forever, and
it was never made desolate for a period of 70 years. Even when Alexander the Great succeeded in his campaign against Tyre in 332 B. C., the city was
soon rebuilt (Wallace B. Fleming, The History of Tyre, Columbia University Press, p. 64) and has existed ever since.

The City of Tyre in ancient times was the Island fort. The adjacent mainland city was called Ushu.

The modern city of Tyre is primarily on the mainland - ancient Ushu, not ancient Tyre.

The land bridge that Alexander built out to the Island fort has been extended and built up with sediment so that there is now no separate island, the
land now looks more like a peninsula and the new mainland city of Tyre has extended out to what was the island. Nearly half of the remainder of the
island is a world Heritage Archaeological site and is uninhabited.

As history is not yet complete, Tyre may yet be completely destroyed. The prophecies (both of them) have not 'failed'.

The Isaiah 23:1-18 prophecy does not say that Tyre will be uninhabited for 70 years. It says that the damage to its harbors will prevent trade and
that it will have no marketplace for 70 years. And after that time, YHWH will visit Tyre and it will begin trading again, but its wealth will be
dedicated to YHWH and used to fund religious organization/s. As far as we know, this last bit of the prophecy hasn't happened yet.

In Ezekiel 26:3-6 it says: "therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the
sea brings up its waves. They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers, and I will scrape her soil from her and make her a bare rock.
She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets, for I have spoken, declares the Lord God. And she shall become plunder for the
nations, and her daughters on the mainland shall be killed by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord". It is clearly delineating
between the island and the mainland. Also, it clearly states that MANY nations will attack it. Later it mentions Nebuchadnezzar as ONE OF those
attackers (the only one known by name by Ezekiel and living at that time). The prophecy goes on to say that the city will sink under the sea in
Ezekiel 26:19-21. This hasn't happened and so the prophecy has not failed, it has not yet been completely fulfilled.

Both the Isaiah and Ezekiel prophecies also use plays on words in Hebrew and artistic twisting of detail of the religious ceremonies of Tyre.

Just as a side note, if it hadn't been for a religious practice, Alexander the Great would never have attacked, besieged and destroyed Tyre (killing
or enslaving all the inhabitants of the island and the adjacent mainland town of Ushu).

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Transparent
Not unprecedented, and biblical prophecy has nothing to do with modern civilization. Besides being ambiguous, and open to any layman's interpretation.
Kind of like Nostradamus's quatrains.

XII 4 *
Fire, flame, hunger, robber, wild smoke,
It will cause to fail, striking hard, to destroy faith:
Arrow of "DentÈ" all Provence sucked up,
Driven out of the realm, enraged without spitting.
DANIEL 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
DANIEL 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
DANIEL 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
DANIEL 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
....................
....................
God is not speaking to mankind, either a ruler of men, or a nation/kingdom of men. God is not speaking to mankind because mankind does not have any
spiritual authority, absolutely none at all. (I will give the Son of Man in the last days wisdom and as a young man he will dream dreams, but as yet
an old man he will see visions, God uses the Antichrist to "Confirm the Covenant of Daniel 9", God goes on to say, "he has a little strength,
virtually no spiritual authority at all, as the gospel indicates"..........................God allowed the Holy Spirit (Raiser of Taxes) to euthanize
all human life out of a specific geographic area, and then God eliminated any interference from mankind with John as he completed the books of
revelation....................euthanasia usually keeps these people tamed, so we have not yet seen enough force used against the Antichrist to cause
God to behave in a similar fashion, bodies weekly yes, we don't have the full cooperation of the media or the authorities, probably for good
reason..........................God talks about the Flood of Star Wormwood in Daniel 11:20-22, God will simply kill the maximum amount of human life
on earth, according to the law, when he kills the "Two Witnesses". We need to be careful, for a number of reasons, not to say or do anything to break
their motivation to use force, and lethal force against the Antichrist................For those reasons, people often remove Nostradamus's Century 11
and Century 12 predictions, because they seem to deal with some incredible chastisement God has not performed for the benefit of the Antichrist's
Testimony. (Thus they intended to keep these people on the attack with the Antichrist, until such a time). (Given the satisfaction, there is nothing
the Antichrist will say, he will just indicate globally when and how many days mankind will die, challenging mankind to make themselves suffer as
their lives come to a close, as a gift to Jesus, so that he can discern further the faithful as they suffer and die exceedingly, so we don't know yet
whats necessary).

a reply to: chr0naut
Chronaut, you know as well as I do, we could back and forth this from now on. It wouldn't matter what allegedly fulfilled prophecy we chose to debate,
you would find a way for it to be true, because you are incapable of seeing it any other way. From my perspective, not one prophecy the bible has to
offer, has ever legitimately come to pass. And those that appear to have done so, seem that way for obvious reasons...
1. Educated guesses based on the times they were living in.
2. They were written after the fact, and added to hand written texts when they were re-copied.
3. Re-writing of history.
4. They are ambiguous enough to be warped and twisted to fit the narrative. Daniel is a good example of that.

Before I walked away from decades of Christianity, prophecy was one of my last holdouts. "Surely" I thought, "there must be something to it". But the
truth is, for every prophecy that appears to be fulfilled, there are plenty more that fit the above scenario's, or just didn't come to pass at all.

Biblical prophecy is a product of deception, like so much of written history, where the writer had a vested interest in the outcome. For me to buy
into it now, means I must throw logic and reason out the window, and re-establish the faith I once had. That isn't going to happen. I can entertain
possibilities my fellow atheists won't even touch, but prophecy isn't one of them.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: chr0naut
Chronaut, you know as well as I do, we could back and forth this from now on. It wouldn't matter what allegedly fulfilled prophecy we chose to debate,
you would find a way for it to be true, because you are incapable of seeing it any other way. From my perspective, not one prophecy the bible has to
offer, has ever legitimately come to pass. And those that appear to have done so, seem that way for obvious reasons...
1. Educated guesses based on the times they were living in.
2. They were written after the fact, and added to hand written texts when they were re-copied.
3. Re-writing of history.
4. They are ambiguous enough to be warped and twisted to fit the narrative. Daniel is a good example of that.

Before I walked away from decades of Christianity, prophecy was one of my last holdouts. "Surely" I thought, "there must be something to it". But the
truth is, for every prophecy that appears to be fulfilled, there are plenty more that fit the above scenario's, or just didn't come to pass at all.

Biblical prophecy is a product of deception, like so much of written history, where the writer had a vested interest in the outcome. For me to buy
into it now, means I must throw logic and reason out the window, and re-establish the faith I once had. That isn't going to happen. I can entertain
possibilities my fellow atheists won't even touch, but prophecy isn't one of them.

I think that people read a small section of a prophecy out of context and then apply speculative interpretations, then others see these
interpretations as 'failures' because they don't happen.

Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel & Jeremiah all prophesied that Israel would go into captivity to Babylon, Jerusalem would be destroyed and that captivity
would only be for a time (70 years), so they'd best be compliant and make the best of the situation. That is the primary context of their prophecies
and did happen historically.

As I said previously, I doubt that America is ever referenced in any any Biblical prophecy. I believe that Biblical prophecies are quite literal and
where metaphor is used, it is identified by words such as "like" or "with the appearance of" or similar. Much of the symbolic nature of prophecies are
actually explained painstakingly, if you read the whole thing in context.

Some of their prophecies came about only hours after them being made (Daniel's prophecy that the Medo-Persians would take Babylon that night, which
did happen) or years later (Isaiah's prophecy about King Cyrus, mentioning him by name, describing his relative non-violent take-over of Babylon and
describing his earlier exploits, made 150 years previously).

If you read the entire book of Jeremiah, for example, you'll see that he was persecuted and imprisoned for years of his life for telling the king what
was going to happen. He would not recant his prophecies and was seen as a traitor for suggesting that they should surrender to their opposing forces
when attacked. The narrative makes it plain that it was not an educated guess, was an account written before the fact, history was not re-written
after it and it was not ambiguous in any way (Jeremiah's were not highly symbolic prophecies, they were very clear and plain talking).

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