I'm active in a paranormal, ET, ghost, bigfoot and other things that go bump in the night called Coast Riders Forum (a benefit to a paid perscription to a radio service called Coast to Coast AM starring George Noory, Art Bell and Ian Punnett - it is America's Number One late Night Radio Broadcast (1am to 5am - 7 nights a week) but I choose to get their on-line content which includes the forum, MP3 commercial free podcasts sent to my desktop, etc..

Here is the posts from my topic I started on Out of Body Experience and all the replies to date. I'll leave out the original post which is you can read at www.beemaster.com/obe.html if you want my FULL detailed understanding of what OBE and how it is a NATURAL OCCURANCE TO HUMANS which is NOW being scientifically studied in-depth.

This is for everyone interested, but I copied (took longer than I thought it would - lol for LateBee)

Here are the replies from other members in RED and my OWN WRITINGS in BLACK - STARTING WITH ME:

NOTE: My reply to the first responce to that epic post found at www.beemaster.com/obe.html - have fun reading these, I know to those of you interested it may be enlightening BEYOND what you already believe - to those who are interested but just not sure, you might find something to help cement your beliefs and to the total non-believers, nothing will open your eyes, but it could be a good FICTIONAL READ if you have nothing else pressing in yur busy schedule.

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Beemaster's REPLY FROM ME to Coast to Coast Forum members in the Coast Rider Forum:

Sorry for my lengthy approach to things, I know I can get long winded, but I try to keep some order to my thinking, so that it flows well.

It is fascinating to think that this could be the next step in human evolution - stepping beyond the body and out into the endless reaches of time and space. I do though think it is coming soon and it will be commonplace.

Glad you are enjoying my post - I'm adding a bit more content to that topic soon, I already have some tips and techniques better detailing basic ways to fool the inner ear balance system to better trigger responces toward OBE. I promise to post them here once I get it all organized better.

Again thanks for reading that - I know it was a long one, but if it helps even one person better understand how natural (and even common) these events are, then it was worth every word typed.

Don't fear it, play with it - the very least it will do is strengthen your belief in the unlimited ability of the human mind and even spark a few ideas of your own how it can be used to make us humans more humane toward each other._________________Beemaster

From JKEYSER

Beemaster,

I believe i have experienced this last year a couple of times, now since you seem to know a lot, I am currently pregnant 5 months and the other night i had experienced it again, but not all the way i made myself come out of it, so have you read anywhere about someone being pregnant and experiencing these things? I have tried to look up stuff on the internet but have not found anything pertaining to my situation. And also wondering if i am experiencing this, is the baby also??? just curious. Thanks,

J'neane

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FROM SIDESHOW

Whoa. Probably the longest post I've read. Congratulations though it was interesting enough that I did finish it. There are quite a few interesting points. I think I've been close to having an OBE but I don't remember the vibration feeling. I do remember voices and weightlessness and the paralysis though. Most of the time when I feel like I'm getting close I get freaked out and don't want to leave my body, almost like I feel a sense of foreboding out there.________________________________

from SimpleComplexities

This is an interesting article...

The Out-of-Body Mindset

By: Zara Herskovits Summary: A brain region is linked to out-of-body experiences. The Seat of Soaring Consciousness. What the mind does in a near-death experience.

For centuries, people who described floating out of their bodies were dismissed as being out of their minds. A recent case study offers insight into this phenomenon, in the first clinical description of an out-of-body experience that was induced in a controlled setting....

Glad to see this topic finally getting some attention - I posted that original post a while ago and was hoping some others had interest

The toughest thing is to let go when the vibration state occurs, it is VERY intense, nearly painful - almost like an electric muscle stimulator but NOISEY with the accompanying sounds. Getting past the vibration isn't easy especially when it is very electrical in feeling.

You have to tell yourself to "Let go" and I've heard saying "Up and out" is a good mantra if you feel the need to say something when in a relaxed state. The good news is that you won't alway experience the vibrations - it can be bi-passed when the conditions are right, but I think it dwindles after many episodes of OBE also.

About being pregnant - man is that an interesting subject to study. I promise to search the net and even post some great sites that have helped me with my studies, but I don't have an answer right now. Personally, I believe you are two bodies sharing the same conscience collective - a "one and one makes three" kind of thinking where IF you are tuned into your conscience side, chances are you can also draw some of the energy and conscience of your baby.

I don't pretend to say "when" babies gain a conscienceness, but I "do think" it is long before birth. I don't think of engery floating around and looking for a body to attach itself to - and least not waiting for birth to occur before connecting with the physical body. There are so many interesting variables. If I had to think of it in logical terms, I'd say once the baby's brain has developed enough to accept or develope the conscienceness is when awareness occurs.

It starts to sound like a reincarnation thing, but it is far from that I think. I think our brains as a sponge made of special material which can filter only the types of energy that it is physically designed to hold. You are the make up of your genes and enviroment and later when you have self awareness, you can also alter your consciencessness.

Good and bad people are very different mentally, their mind's makeup dictates their personality as well as their conscienceness. It's not to hard to see how some people are very enlightened and it brings them great peace and adversely some are evil and filled with great hatred toward everything - I don't think there are too many people composed of each enlightenment and evil - those who are, are the true Anti-Christs of the world. The creatures capable of unimaginable horrors.

I rarely use the term spirit because of the ghostly sound or religious tone it can take, but I think conscience and spirit are synonomous terms - at least as far as our limited understanding of our Universe goes. But we are all magnets, as everything in the Universe with mass are. We are lucky in that we have the physical makeup and mental capability to express our feelings and emotions. That is why prayer and mass prayer are so powerful, they create a field of energy that can overlap other fields of similar energy magnifying the outcome.

My wife said one time after listening to me ramble on that our conscience energy sounds like adding detergent to a dishwasher, it enters and mixes and mixes around until it effects everything it comes in contact with - that is not a bad analogy at all.

Years ago I had started Tai Chi with the hopes to experience my own energy field out side of the body. It took weeks and weeks of trying simple repetitive motions to finally feel the very first time that I could recognise this energy. I had a powerful energy feeling between my hands and literally woke her up to see if she could feel anything between my throbbing palms. Sadly, she could not - but I'm sure that is a VERY different subject and it takes NOTHING away from experiencing the feeling oneself.

Here is a modified but simple exercise that I believe is a real aid to experience our own energy: I recommend this to anyone who wants to experience their own conscience energy without having to have an OBE.

Place your hands like you are holding a Slinky - both hand palms up or slightly tilted inwards and about 18 inches apart. Slowly move one hand up and the other down equally and imagine the weight of the slinky flowing from one palm to the other as the mass of the spring moves from hand to hand.

The trick is to seriously imagine that weight flowing from palm to palm as if the Slinky is really there. Try this maybe twice a day for about a week and or less and you will start to feel the smooth transistion of weight from hand to hand as if there were indeed a Slinky there.

Then slowly move your hand and arms around, keeping the palms parellel to each other and imagine what the amount of weight between the two would be at that point - meanwhile, try to imagine it more of a ballon able to expand outwards as the weight shifts and you will find with a little practice that there is an energy which repells your hands away from each other. It might help to move your hands with palms facing each other in slow figure eights and modify the angles of your palms to best feel the power of the energy.

Literally, you can feel tingling in the hands and as you press your hands toward each other, you can feel great resistance and if squeezing a ballon between your hands. Try tilting the palms slightly away from parellel and you will see that the weight/energy fades and moves in the direction the dominent hand (where the energy is AT during that particular motion - not a lefthanded or right handed person issue) and adjust the other hand to realign to capture the energy and again let it flow and balance between the hands.

With some practice, you can literally toss the energy away from the body as if it were conneced by a rubber band and pull it back in. I think of it as a large hola hoop feeling where the energy flows out and back toward you. Keep trying these different steps and the energy will come quicker and quicker as you sit down each time. You are looking for VERY SMALL differences in weight shifting but the force (once felt) is undeniable - it can be as powerful a feeling as the vibration state - which it is VERY MUCH LIKE.

Meditators, Yoga students can also feel the balance differences in weight as they move about doing their thing. Remember as I said in the first post, much of the OBE is a balance difference in the inner ear: finding the perfect head position when you sleep can greatly aid your OBE attempts.

Balance is the key to all these variations. There was an old saying I remember a teaching saying when I was a kid "You could balance an elephant on top of a vertical standing pencil if the weight were distributed right" That saying for some reason NEVER left me - and now I totally understand that.

In order for all these to work, you need to find yourself in a place of near perfect balance (even if all you are balancing is your hand relative to each other - as in the Slinky exercise) or the inner ear when attempting OBE. These minute changes in weight allows all the physical body parts involves to be balanced on top of the vertical pencil and ANY CHANGES in the conscience being can then be felt - you are literally holding the physical body in zero gravity relative to the conscience being. That is when you are able to feel the minute' energy of the consciencess at play.

Remember, the mass of the body holds the consciencess inside it - like the people on Earth are held to the planet. Gravity is a very formitable force. But we know it can be overcome, we can just jump and leave the Earth, if only for a second - but it can be done.

OBE or these other experiments with the conscieneness are very similar - you are trying to leave you body, something you rarely do (probably as often as your body leaves the ground) and before you can master the exercises, you need to recognise the subtleties. Balance is the key and recognising how powerful the mass of our bodies compared to a near weightless conscience will greatly help you on your way.

Hope that has helped some. More next time - off to work now. I'll check in to what I can find on pregnancy, that is really interesting, I can't wait to find something and share.

Talk again soon _________________Beemaster

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From Potatopeel

Beemaster We have read a fair amount on this but none so well put as yours. We are new to attempting this and have yet to take flight. Will keep you all posted.

_________________Myname is Rick.Recently graduated from Engineering and am looking for an E.I.T position.I would realy appreciate some contacts from my fellow coast to coast listeners.I am Angela his wife Homeschooling our kids and am a hypnotherapy student.

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From Jkeyser

Thanks Beemaster, I will be looking forward to your future posts.

J'neane

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From Potato peel

Would you all be interested in writing a bit about yourselves. I'm interested in knowing your background Beemaster. Male/fem. That goes for you all. Tell we write again, Angela and Rick From Canada

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From Shredder

It happened to me several times between undergrad and grad school. I am hesitant to tell people becasue they think I am nuts. But here are some of my thoughts.

1) I believe that real OBE's are closely related to that fine line state of sleep. Your body (brain) disables the motor funtions so that you don't act out your dreams. This is closely related to sleep paralisys, a state I think is closely related to OBEs

2) We've all had that dissasociated feeling, like meditating or 'runners high'. And we have all had those flying dreams, but when you 'pop' out of your body it is different.

3) I think the buzzing sound was actually a hieghtened hearing. I could hear the blood rushing in my ears, the sound of the air. Imagine that silence that gets called deafening. Then amplify that.

4) This is really weird. I think electronic noise seemed to hamper the ability to experience OBE. I have never heard anyone else talk about this. I had lots of electronic equipment running in my house. Long story, I had several experiments set up. Some of them required very high wattage. I never OBE'd when that equipment was on. I OBE'd when I all that was off. Also, the house where it occured was far out in the country, no noise, no street lights out side, nothing.

5) Even weirder. I didn't notice it at the time but after looking back on it one day I think full moon and new moon were the most common nights, however, with only a few experiences it could be purely anectdotal. However, if my theory about electronic noise is correct I suppose geomagnetic environment could have an effect. (that feels like a stretch)

6) Since it occurs on that edge of sleep and wake, it is more common when you are well rested. It can commonly occur when you are well rested but not sleeping regularly. I was on break between school. I was napping a lot. I had no set sleep schedule.

7) Everytime it occured I was sleeping on my back.

Search out the work of Benhajamin LeBlanc, a French Canadian who studied night 'visitations' .

9) Ever since then I sometimes hear what I call 'The Committee of Sleep' (I don't know where I got that)

10) I think the first time it had happened I drank a mug of coffee then fell asleep. I always thought that the coffee started to work after I was asleep, and helped put me on the edge of sleep and awake.

So thats it, find yourself a secluded place where you feel comfortable sleeping. Lay on your back. Get lots of rest. experiment wtih caffine if you must but don't use any of the weird drugs, try t do it yourself. Turn off all the crap around you, get rid of electronic noise, and regular noise as well.

When you hear that loud buzzing cacaphony, just let it happen. I tried to sit up, and popped out of my body and floated there above the bed, near the ceiling, watchin the digital clock tick away and the dog breathing peacfully.

I recently had surgery and experienced several OBE's the following day while resting. I used to get them all the time when I was a teenager up until my mid-20's._________________"You are born with the truth, then taught a lie"

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From Beemaster

Great posts here - thanks for the kind words about my theories. I don't think I've opened up the door yet, but I believe my key fits the lock - someday I'll be able to turn that key - but as with all of us, I think on THAT day it will be a one-way trip to wherever we go from here

About me, I am a boiler plant operator for the Navy, I work at Navy Lakehurst where the Hindenburg Crashed on May 6th, 1937 (about 1 mile from here) - full bio at www.beemaster.com/bio.html but the links in my signature below can also give you some insight to my interests.

SHREDDER: I agree with so many of your points. The BEST way to experience the OBE is on your back, which incidentally allows for the easiest inner ear balance - sadly for me, I am a stomach sleeper and trying to perfectly balance the fluids THAT way would smother me - lol.

The magnetic energy of high wattage equipment, sound and other equipment seriously makes sense when you are dealing with near weightless energies. I say "near weightless" because it makes sense that "in order for the mass of the physical body" to effect the conscienceness, the conscienceness needs to have mass too!

That was the theory of the movie 28grams - when you burned the body, you could account for all of its weight minus 28grams which they tribute to the soul. Interesting concept and I can't imagine the true weight, but I do believe our conscience does have mass.

About sleep paralasys (which I didn't mention in the last post) it is scary as Hell - I don't wish that on anyone UNLESS they are seeking OBEs and are using it as proof of the experience. The time we are away from the body is interesting to imagine - is it seconds, nanoseconds, minutes? Can we really assume everything we experience during OBE is in REAL time?

I do know that when you have paralasys it is in REAL TIME recovering control over your motor function. I know I have been "down for the count" for nearly a minute where I had no idea what on Earth was happening - it wasn't really as if I were glued to the floor, but better put, I had no feeling to speak of, as if my entire body fell asleep like a hand or foot can do. My head was trying to thrash around with absolutely no helf from anything from the neck down.

Regaining control though was not a slow and painful process as a foot waking up can be - once my MIND was back in control, my body got right up and went about its business. So it was like a switch flipping when the control returned, but a scarey 60+ seconds waiting for it to happen.

About the vibrational state - you mention the deafening noise in the silence - that is pretty good indeed. I think it goes beyond hearing, well into the actual body, and as I think about it - it very well could be an ALL SYSTEMS SHUTTING DOWN noise, as if your conscience is killing all the circuit breakers to the motor control - putting everything Physical on Auto-pilot while the conscience takes a ride away from the body.

My own need to explore this topic literally came from my fear that something was wrong with me - I didn't know an OBE from Adam and luckily that program with William Bulman set me on a quest to understand this in a way that made sense to my doubting mine. I always had an interest in how we can tie theology and creationism together and I really don't think it all that tough if you think of the Bible as mostly parable - or better put - told in a way that average people could explain a very complex interaction of everything that is LONG before technical terminology was the standard.

If the Bible were written a thousand years from now it would be a very differently written book, but I think the message would be the same. I don't want to get into religions, but I do think though that BELIEF in a creator is a very positive force and sets us all on the correct path toward our own creation.

So again, check out the bio, and the other stuff at www.beemaster.com if you are interested - I have a ton of topics, over 300 pages and I hope some interesting content. My site is my hobby, as is teaching beekeeping through the Internet. It keeps me busy when my brain wants to think too much - lol. Peace.

(((((( this added in the following post by me)))))

I am still at work, where I typed my last post. I got thinking about what really passes on from parent to child, still thinking about pregnacy here I guess.

There is no doubt in my mind that the brain is a physical part of the body, it is more miraculous in its ability than most body parts - but watch a talented person playing the piano, dancing, driving a Nascar, flying a plane, playing a video game... All that stuff is pretty miraculous when you look at it. Of course it all involves the brain, much subconsciously: playing the piano at lightning speed with independant hand movements could never be a conscience act.

I'm pretty fluent in morse code, I'm good at receiving 40 words per minute at about 100% accuracy. If I were to try and write the code down, I limit myself to about 15 to 18wpm and if I had to say -.-. is a "C" and do that with every letter, now I'm down to 5wpm.

The trick with any learned skill is to take a backseat to the action in the foreground - with morse code, you must simply listen and let the letters and words form in your head. But anything that is too fast for conscience actions is controlled by the subconscience and completed through muscle memory.

Just buy a new microwave which has a button you have to push rather than a handle you have to pull to open it - it could take you weeks and months to overcome the muscle memory of how you opened the old microwave. Lots of stuff have to happen, but you need to train those muscles through conscience actions to properly open the door - if left to the subsconscience, you would grab for a non-existant handle forever.

So the question on the table is: in OBE we are letting the conscience fly about, breaking the bonds of time and space - literally going where it wants or (if we can really master it) go where we want it to, as in remote viewing, etc.. But while all that is happening, what is going on with the SUB-conscience? Is "IT" in control of the body while we are away rather than thinking of it as on auto-pilot during the away trip of the conscience?

I've been thinking about this for an hour now, trying to prove or disprove any involement of the subconscience involement with OBE and so far I can not!

I'll layout two strange OBEs to try and prove or disprove this point.

The later OBE was interesting strange. I found myself with little vibration and no paralasys that I can recall - I think this could be BECAUSE my OBE away time was very short. I do think that the longer you are away from the body, the MORE paralasys you will experience. In a way, sleep paralasys is an away timer.

During this voyage I popped into a dimly lit brick walled and dirt floor basement. It was rich in colors and shadows. I didn't see anything that you would expect; a breaker box, a hotwater heater, etc.. It was wet and even the walls seemed wet and I was VERY close to the ground, as if I were at MOUSE height, but everything appeared normal size not giant as it must to a mouse.

I purposely looked around the room for a few seconds and I found a set of steps leading up. I tried to will myself to go up the stairs but somehow BREECHED my fragile OBE and popped back in body.

The earlier was fascinating. I spun in full circles upward, through the ceiling way above my home and far enough up to see my entire small town from a stationary spot in the sky. I notice (as in other adventures which took place outside) it was night but my eyes had adjusted well.

Whenever out and about, I have some degree of control, able to fly around and I have even rised to the upper atmosphere looking down and seeing details of the continents. Looking back, I don't know if these were accurate details of the landscape below, but it surely was Earth like in its makeup of water to land ratio.

I really don't know what snapped me back in body this time, but I think it was something outside of my control - like a car door slamming or something else. There was lag time, minor paralasys on this occasion but my recall was very good and it did not fade from my memory as a dream might.

In both cases I try to find subconscience interaction, either at the body or out in the OBE - but I can't think of anything that remotely called for subconscience activity. I am thinking that the subconscience has to be muted as well as the neccessary relaxation of the body.

Of course we have the different OBE state - the state of complete motion as I think I have called it prior. That is where you are so fully involved with repetitive physical motions that the subconscience is practically 100% busy and the conscience gets the opertunity to exit out of the body which and play.

Runners, speed walkers, production line workers, musicians playing and instrument all can step back (as if a third party) and experience their mundane or repetitive tasks from a viewers prospective. This is a great case to prove the subconscience can be in use while an OBE occurs.

Whether still or in full motion, the conscience and subconscience are indeed two distinct entities and under the right circumstance OBE can occur. I just believe that the subconscience really enjoys doing bodily things and the conscience wants to think and play. And once the conscience understands that the playground extends WAY beyond the body, then making those trips outside and beyond the flesh gets easier and easier.

It's just like driving a car, after a short time - you become the car. It becomes a product of muscle memory and subconscience movements. I know my wife zones out on her daily drive to work and often her 30 minute drive goes by spooky quick - lol. I got her interested in audiobooks and now she keeps her conscience busy while driving, which I think is better than doing some OBE thing.

So whether you give it nothing to do or have it juggle 10 balls at once, I think your subconscience is like a three way switch, you can turn it on or off at the top and bottom of the stairs. There is no middle ground where you can have OBEs, I honestly believe that to be so.

Sorry for the long back to back posts. Midnights at work can get long and with George Noory in the background and a heavy snowfall outside, I have a great background for writing these epic posts. Luckily I type fast and rarely rework the text - except for obvious spelling errors. But I feel that whatever comes out was suppose to come out - so I don't correct much unless "I" don't even understand it._________________Beemaster

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This from sideshow

I've experienced much of the same as you. Caffeine seems to put me in that in between state. I also noticed that electronics or such as a tv that is on but has no picture like one on a video 2 game input but the game is powered off, will not allow it to happen. I can hear the TV humming and I supposed I get distracted. The weird thing is that I've rarely had this happen when I'm sleeping on my stomach. But like I said earlier I don't remember the buzzing so maybe I'm just dreaming._________________"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem." Chesty Puller

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This from Shredder

1) I am not convinced that the conscious actually is outside the body. It could be an illusion. 2) Sideshow, you mentioned that you werent sure if you were dreaming. You'll know if you pop out opf your body. 3) Sleep paralysis, I am convinced this is the first step to OBE. Hopefully you dont stay in that state long. The first time it happened to me i was paralyzed, I tried to sit up and the loud pop (rapid buzz sounds like a pop sort of) ,,,, loud pop and I was floating above my body. I couldn't mamuever that well, but I was there, conscious, I saw the numbers on the clock and I never see numbers or text that clearly or literally in my dreams. I believe sleep paralysis is the first step is dissasociating your mind from your body.

so there is a distinction between this and a regular dream, BUt it could still be an illusion that you are actuallly out of your body.

I do not believe that the conscousness would have mass. It would be an electromagnetic field. Thats why electronic equipment would inhibit it.

The old mystics used to dig a deep hole to OBE, that would sheild you from geomagnetic activity.

The myth of 28 grams comes from an experiment where they weighed people on the edge of death. However, back then, thier measurement equipment would have been inaccurate. A living body is moving always. There is an experiment with lasers to show this (too long for this) but the body is always vibrating due to heart beat, respiration , and muscle twitching. When that movement stops the scale would stabalize. This 28 grams sounds like a measurement mistake. IT was repeatable because the same equipment was used for several bodies, then a conclusion was made.

If the spirit is able to transcend time and space, then it does not have to obey our physics. It is, in effect, non physical. Mass is a physical property.

When I hda OBE's , the initial ones where I was floating over my body seemed real, as I tried to get far away from my body the things that started happeneing were more like dreams.

That first one I was over my body watching the clock change and watching the dog breath as it slept, that seemed very real.

It went on for about a month and one night I decided to see if I could make it to the moon. As soon as I strayed the whole thing took on the feel of a dream.

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This from Shadowolf

Beemaster, what do you think about a link between hypnosis and OBE's? do you think it would be possible to hypnotize yourself or someone else in order to make it easier to enter the obe? i, myself, am an amateur hypnotist and interested.

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Shadowwolfe:

I think getting to that extremely important relaxed state surely could be assisted by hypnosys, I can't imagine why not - if someone in an operating room can experience OBE with a crowd present, I would assume a hypnosist could also remain to watch the experience.

The sad point though is I don't think there is anything to see - it will all be done through reflection after the event. I imagine witnessing the sleep parallasys would be the only real event that could be monitored.

Interesting question, but I surely agree that self-hypnosys or by using he skills of other sure could aid the experience!!!

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I'm having a awareness myself as of late I want to share in a few words. I am starting to lean toward a profound paradgym of thought: that is that the conscience mind is a further split from a cojoined energy source. Let me explain.

So often in the posts we talk about the conscience being attached to the physical being - the conscience leaves for short times and we call it an OBE.

Now, at death: I am really thinking a second effect takes place where the conscience separates itself from the energy and it is the energy that goes on - the conscience (the collection of lifes experiences in a mindly manor) end forever - BUT the energy which was shaped by the conscience's life experiences does go on and joins the rest of the Universal energy.

The conscience roll in life, ends MUCH as did the physical body's roll in life - the final out come, the pure energy (however strong or weak according to the experiences and learnings and growth of the being) is the final and lasting stage - no longer restricted by control of conscience thought.

This isn't new, we have all heard that only the good things that we did are remembered by the people we meet in the after life. I think that may be PARABLE and not exactly meant as quoted. I think that:

1) if conscience thought DOES remain, it is separate from energy and has its own plain of existance where other consciences exist - this I'm no long as sure of.

2) that energy (without conscience restrictions) can be better put to use - something like a grounding cable allows lightning or electricity to go to ground - it becomes a catalyst.

Just a few thoughts as my own experiences (I lost my Father-in-law and was very active during his final days by his side and aftwards) and this who conscience/body/energy thing has rolled around in my mind a million ways.

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This from Shredder

RE: Hynosis

I would worry that the hypnotist could suggest that you were having an OBE and you would basically 'dream' it.

I know for me the few times I had the full blown experience, it just seemed like this was something way different from the 'flying dream' taht can seem so similar.

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This from Sideshow

Beemaster,

Do you consider your conscience to be your soul or do you think that is different? Also, if your conscience leaves the dying body how do we know where to go?

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This from Shadowolf

shredder, hypnosis is nothing like dreaming. it is the state between dreaming and consicous. basically the state that beemaster described as the beginning of obe is hypnosis. also, beemaster, it is possible to remember everything that happened during hypnosis. while youre hypnotized you know what is going on and what is happening around you, if nothing else youre extra sensitive to your surroundings. i see no reason why hypnosis would hinder the obe experience. _________________________

Beemaster Wrote

Is the Conscience the soul - that is tricky. It gets tricky because of where I think the splits occur - if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are true - the Holy Spirit part is what I assume or conscience goes to and becomes part of.

But I think those terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit are PARABLE - words used to describe a rhelm that we STILL to this day do not grasp. I can only imagine that if the Bible were written today, it would be worded very different.

Personally I believe the conscience is the devine part of us that is reclaimed into the Universe - whether it is attached to the energy that drives it - or is separate from that, I don't know - no one does.

Many modern and historical philosphers agree that our spirit is the only part of the being that matters - our phyical upbringing and health sways the shaping of the spirit - grow up in a bitter house is much different from being brought up in a loving home.

Death is the ultimate OBE - if we have conscienceness then is the question - but while in our Earthly body our conscience is the driving force of our life, I hope and pray it continues on in all cases, reflecting the person we truly were in life, not the hundred masks we wear every day as we weed our way through different people, work, traffic, family, friends. We all wear many hats, but the soul is thought to be in the abdomin - thus the reason so many belly wounds lead to death.

Sorry for no clear answer - we can only hope that we all get to experience the after life consciencely (that would be the ultimate experience) does it happen, we don't know. In NEAR DEATH (when the energy and conscience are attached, yet those are separate from the body) we have conscience recollection - it may not be that way in the REAL end._________________Beemaster

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This from Shadowolf

lol, no i have not smart ass. but i think, theoretically hypnosis would help. i am interested and i will try to see if self hypnosis with some of beemasters suggestions can help. i have been hypnotized and it sound as if it is closely related.

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From Shredder

wasn't being a smartalec, really. just wondering. Sorry if it came off like that.

I've had some expisure to hypnotism (long story, not important here). I believe a big part of it is physical not mental. I suppose self hypnosis might be of assistance. I'd worry that if you had a hypnostist telling you "you feel like your flying, your out of your body" would just produce somehing that isnt an OBE.

Try getting away for a few days. Go to a cabin in the woods or something. Get lots of sleep, take a nap during the day. Then at midnight to 3AM drink a little coffee, 1 small cup no more. Then try to sleep. You want a clear night. Get rid of all electrical crap, go somewhere without electricity if you can. Make sure the bed is comfortable, when it starts you want your body to be comfy, you wouldn't want to be aware of a spring poking you in the back, thats a show stopper.

If you do it at home go around and shut everything off.

I meant the OBE has a physical as well as mental component, to have a successful trip, I am convinced it has to do with the mind shutting off motor functions so you don't act out your dreams.

The key is to become conscious while still in that state. Paralyzed, but don't panic realize that your actually free, stay calm. And when the buzz starts just think 'here we go' and sit directly up and float to the ceiling.

And if your one of these people who sees stuff in your room that scares you, ie shapes, shadows etc... tell it to go away if it bothers you, or talk to it.

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From Shadowolf

how long did it take you guys after attempting to have an obe on purpose to be successful?

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From Shredder

didnt attempt it. It just happened. I was in between undergrad and grad school living far out in the woods. It was very secluded. I had some very high voltage science experiments going on in my house.

The first night it happened was when i had everything turned off. My house was quiet. It was a full moon out. I came aware and awake and had sleep paralysis. I tried to sit up and instead popped out.

It then happened several more times that summer under similar conditions.

The first one was stark, very real, watching the clock change and the dog breath, and watching myself sleep.

In subsequent events I decided to try going farther out of my bedroom. As I strayed farther from my bedroom the experience got very freaky, and obviously had parts that were made up by my imagination (if not all). I met a being that looked like giant art deco metallic bird of prey, very sinister looking. It told me that this was the personification _I_ had chosen to see it as.

I hung out with it for a while and he showed me a few things. Very strange and i don't ussually tell people about it.

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From Shadowolf

what did he show you? was it frightening? do you think it was religious/spiritual at all?

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Shredder says:

I saw the house where i would be living during grad school, and the moon.

The one on the moon was filled with fanciful things from my own imagination. Again I was told that i was seeing things in a personification I choose for them.

In one of the last few times it happened i saw the house where i would be living grad school. For the most part it was incredably accurate.

This giant bird of prey was a terrifying presence. Maybe not evil, but still terrifying.

There was incident one that started out with the very real feeling of floating in my bedroom and watching myself sleep. I then floated around over the field near my house, that also was real. It seemed like as long as I was within a few hundred feet of my body the experience was very real. After that it became fanciful.

Seeing my future rental house though was kinda freaky.

When I got to grad school i arrived with my dog, as any dog owner knows looking for an apartment with a dog is not easy.

I found an add and called the lady, told her my situation, she wanted to meet my dog before making teh decision. The house was actually in the next town over. The house that had been shown to me in my OBE (astral travel - weird dream - whatever) kind of looked like the house in the old movie psycho. Not exactly, but it was distinctive.

when I followed the directions through this small country town and pulled up in front of the address I was floored. It looked like an exact match to what I could remember from that dream (OBE).

That was hard for me to rationalize because when i had the OBE it was all I could think about for a couple days. I had a lot of anxiety about going off to grad school. So I specifically asked this guide of mine to see the place I would be living when i got there. During the OBE I can remember being worried about finding a place with my dog.

So he showed me the house.

As I said, it was hard for a skeptic to rationalize as 'just a dream'.

As a last word on this. I never heard of an OBE when it happened to me. So I was fascinated when i heard identicle accounts from other people, including stumbling on a guide, choosing the personification of the guide and being told thats what happened, going to the moon, and being shown the future.

Also, the increased awareness, buzzing/pooping out of the body, sleep paralysis. It all matched what happened to me. BUt I had never heard of any of it prior to the event.

It is more common in your 20's or early 30's when sleep paralysis more commonly happens. It is my presonal theory that this is the time in your life when the endocrine controller glands in your head are going thorugh a profound change.

I still say foret about any of the mental stuff, concentrate on the sleep interuption, maybe some caffeine (nothing more potent, don't use drugs), nap during the day. Sleep on your back, turn of electronic crap, dont think about it.

Don't panic, that is a show stopper.

Thats about all i can tell you except to keep fillingin details abot my personal experience which i am hesitatnt to do because it makes me sound like some new age weirdo.

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Shadowolf says:

ok, so i listened to the most recent episode on obe and the guy makes it sound very creepy. did you see scary things when it happened to you? he says you shouldnt do it if you believe in demons...

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OLD MAN SAYS:

do not know if mine was obe , dream , or i died on operating table and my spirit was leaving. a little background a little over a year ago doc said if i didn't have surgery had only 6 mths to live. after the 3 previous back surgerys the last one i contracted mrsa a staph infection in my spinal cord. well they took me to the operating room and put me under. when i finally came to i had this vivid memory of seing my mother , father , sons and wife in my empty hospital room talking amongst themselves and my youngest son who is 9 crying. i actually remember saying to myself i ain't supposed to be here i supposed to be in the operating room. thats what i rembered when i awoke so maybe it was just a dream i do not know.

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Shredder:

Well my guide looked like something off of an Iron Maiden album cover.

Yeah, as you wander around, as you get farther from your body you'll meet things. See this is why i dont like to write or talk about it. I met a ghost who asked me to get out the details of her murder, she wanted people to know. I promised her I would and ran, it was a very frightening night for me. Weird stuff. It makes me sound like a nut.

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Shadowolf:

it doesnt make you sound like a nut,m but isnt it dangerous? you could easily be influenced by a demon or evil? it makes me wander why you wuold want to walk around in spirit form and talk to the deceased? what good comes of any of it? sounds like it more scary than intriguing.

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Shredder:

Like I said it just happened for me. I didnt ask for it and had never heard of it until i moved to grad school, into the house I spoke of. Then someone toled me about OBE's and I researched it.

I always wrote them off as dreams, its easier to rationalize, until i researched it and realized it was something different than a dream.

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Sideshow:

Well my guide looked like something off of an Iron Maiden album cover.

""""Yeah, as you wander around, as you get farther from your body you'll meet things. See this is why i dont like to write or talk about it. I met a ghost who asked me to get out the details of her murder, she wanted people to know. I promised her I would and ran, it was a very frightening night for me. Weird stuff. It makes me sound like a nut.""""

Did you ever follow up and get the details out for ghost?

About two weeks ago I had the buzzing feeling while laying in bed and my wife moved and woke me up. I think I was pretty close to popping out. I always seem to have a really bad feeling of dread as I'm just sitting there I feel like I'm awake but I know that I'm not. It is strange. There were also times when I was younger that I would see shapes in my room like an inky void in the shape of a flying creature kind of hovering wings flapping very slowly. Probably a dream but sure seemed real.

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Shredder says:

Sideshow, That feeling of dread is why i think it is beast to not know anything about OBE's first.

RE: Demons, If you believe in demons you obviously believe in some sort of diety. Just drop some names and they'll leave you alone.

RE Ghost Info: I'd rather not even go into this.

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Powerpc1 says:

I have had problems with sleep paralysis for years. Over the past year, I have experienced OBE's while in this state. I scares the hell out of me with just experiencing the paralysis. When the OBE experience started I took steps to try to make sure I did not experience the paralysis at all. It seems that if I go to sleep with the radio or television on, something that gives me a reference to the real world I can avoid the paralysis and all the discomforting feelings associated with it. I can almost always tell when an experience is going to happen and get out of bed before I fall asleep to change my nightly habits and train of thought. It almost always starts with a seemingly irrational eery feeling of being watched while dosing off. This does not always work and still get surprised with an episode. I will describe the OBE if anyone is interested but I am more interested in knowing if anyone else has had the OBE experience associated with sleep paralysis. I am new to the board and to this site and actually found it by doing searches on the web about the subject. It is really starting to bother me. Thanks.

1st, as self appointed presdent pf the local bad spellers club I'd like to welcome you to the board.

That scenario you described is very familiar to me also. You should put down your OBE. I found I ddint want to give every detail, but fill us in a little its a very intriguing subject and a lot of people will want to read it I am sure.

Luckilly for me the first few times it happened I never got that feeling of being watched. It was very peaceful. There was no one in the room but my dog. I know, because I had a birds eye view from the ceiling.

But I do know what your talking about by being watched. I think this might be related to 'night terrors' and even shadow people. People often report being frozen to the bed when seeing a shadow person.

You chould read back through this long series of posts too, I'd be interested in hearing your comments on all the crap I wrote.

Thankfully I stopped having them. I had them mostly for one summer and a few times the next year. As things progressed they got weirder. The last one was a trip. It involved a ghost who wanted to let people know how she died. I have never really told anyone about it because I saw specific details about a crime scene, location, make and model of a car, key details of the crime. I actually promised the ghost I would let people know. But I am afraid if I ever told anyone, and any of it turned out to be true, I'd be a suspect.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

Thanks for the welcome Shredder. I will read the posts in the thread and will then post my experiences as briefly and detailed as possible. I will tell you that during the OBE and paralysis there have been shadow creatures that I considered dogs or something that shape and size. It is weird. The sleep paralysis has never involved the "Old Hag" but other entities are very vivid and memorable. I have been living with the sleep paralysis a long time but things have gotten so bizarre that I had to start researching it. I was astounded with all the reference material and experiences I read. Will be back in touch soon. Thanks again for the welcome.

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From Shredder:

Your story sounds familiar. I am intrigued. I am sure Shadow Wolf will be reading this, and Beemaster also. I think you and I have formed some of the same opinions.

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Shadowolf says:

it is interesting. the sleeping paralysis in particular. i once hypnotized a friend of mine and he experienced paralysis that i would liken to sleep paralysis when i brought him out. scared me to death. i think when your subconcious mind is most active you are more probable of paralysis.

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Shredder says:

believe sleep paralysis is a mechanism to keep upi from acting out your dreams. Its that fine line where your become consious, but for some reason your body is still turned off, thats where you have OBE's.

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Powerpc1 says:

My experiences started out years ago as episodes of sleep paralysis. The sleep paralysis in itself is very unnerving; at least it is to me. The episodes started out by being consciously awake but unable to move at all. I would try to move enough to alert my wife to wake me up but to no avail. While in the paralysis it always seemed that someone was there watching me but I could never actually see anyone. The sensation was one of fear and that a malignant being was threatening me in some way or the other. After what seemed liked a very long time I was able to awaken myself and the episode would be over except for a pounding heart and a feeling of someone had been there.

Later the episodes started getting stranger. I was actually having the sensation of being attacked during these episodes. I was once attacked by what I thought was my wife. I was being hit and basically ravaged. I was able to wake myself up and there was my wife sound asleep next to me. Keep in mind that my eyes and my mind were awake and I would have swore that I was being attacked. Later, I had creatures about the size of medium sized dogs crawling from my feet to my head. I have also heard footsteps coming up the stairs while in this state and actually after regaining control of my body searched the house for intruders. It is a very realistic experience.

Things have gotten even stranger with the OBEâ€™s. The first experience started with the paralysis and then a sensation of floating into another room in the house. I would be floating vertically about a foot above the floor. I would float to the other room and float to a horizontal position and float to the floor. While on the floor I was still paralyzed. My head was turned to the side and I could see the dog like creatures out of the corner of my eye. I was in fear of being attacked. This type of episode repeated to different rooms of the house. These experiences were very scary and wish they would just quit. I feel it is just a dream state as is the sleep paralysis but I am seeing things, hearing things and moving to other areas of the house. After gaining complete consciousness I would be in my bed as usual. The episodes get a little more detailed but due to space and time I will leave it at this since this pattern seems to repeat. Right now the episodes occur about twice a month although I can usually tell when an episode is about to begin. These have happened in bed and while falling asleep sitting on the couch.

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Shredder says:

If you have enough composure try talking to the scary beasties. Don't let them push you around.

I just remembered something. Most of my experiences came when I was a poor college student and couldnt afford a good mattress. My mattress sagged greatly in the middle. This caused me to sleep on my back. I was always sleeping on my back when it happened.

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Beemaster says:

Hi Everyone:

It's been a while since I read replies to this post and they are all very interesting.

I caught the end of a show on OBE on the Sci-Fi channel and it mentioned something I had never thought of before: The INNER EAR can get into a virbatory state (just like RAPID EYE MOVEMENT) and this has been documented electronically during sleep studies.

The idea that RIRV (Rapid Inner Ear Vibration) exists is something I never thought of before, not in a way as we think of Rapid Eye Movement. You experience RIRV while still in a conscience state, where REM needs deep sleep to occur. Plus REM always occurs during a full sleep cycle of normal people, where RIRV is much much rarer.

Laying quietly, near sleep or when fully relaxed is usually when the vibrational state occurs, so knowing that you are moving beyond the vibration state involves your own mind's ability to let it happen. You can either surrender to the separation state (which is the goal of OBE) or remain in control of the physical body and NOT experience OBE, the choice is yours and with training, you become better and better at exiting the body with the least amount of vibration and the least amount of parallasys when returning. Repeated OBEs are great learning tools and it can be as fun as learning to drive a bike for the first time.

So RIRV is documented, but what occurs AFTER that is still in the rhelm of the traveler - I don't think we will be seeing VIDEOS of peoples OBE for quite awile, so like most things in life, it requires FAITH and BELIEF.

I know personally that OBE has helped me deal with the idea of a God and a spiritual world. The only thing that (in my heart) I still have trouble dealing with is: does the conscienceness NEED a brain and a body to return to? Is it energy that does survive BEYOND the death of the body.

I know there is a free moving, detachable conscience spirit that can fly around without the limits of the physical dementions of the body, but is the conscieness like a car that needs gas to go anywhere - is that body like gasoline for the spirit and without it, the conscienceness cannot go anywhere like a car without gas. Better put, without the gasoline, does the car exist at all?

I guess that is weird... But I am a beekeeper and know that WITHOUT the pheromonal scent of the queen, the hive is doomed because the workerbees have NO IDEA what they are supposed to do. She is the primmer to the hive, a necessary piece of the puzzle, the gas for the car. A hive will not forage, eat what food stores it has collected and eventually just die ALL BECAUSE the queen's scent is gone.

I wonder if the brain is the primmer neccessary to create all that we see and experience, or is (as I hope is the case) it is just the control motor for all physical motion and the consciencess is a second entity living in the same body - both of which are trained and tooled by their exposure to life's good and bad experiences, but both being as real and important as the other in the fine balance of exisitance.

I surely hope the conscience lives on - as asked many times, is the conscience, soul and spirit all the same thing? I hope so, but for the boundry of OBE I like to use conscienceness as the word of choice, saying spirit or soul brings religion into it, where we can have a conscience without neccessarilly needing a God - or do we

Peace everyone, I'll check back soon. I hope everyone is having a great summer.

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Shredder says:

This is such a cool thread. I wonder if your ear theory has anything to do with the fact that it only happened to mewhile in my back?

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Beemaster Writes:

Shredder...

I too have enjoyed this thread, I find it the most common scence and technical discussion of the topic.

I mention in the first post or two the need for inner ear balance, suggesting that if you CAN sleep on your back it is ideal. Sadly, I'm a side sleeper and it is a bit tougher to get an equal balance of fluids in both ears in order to trigger the vibration - which is still what I believe is what happens.

Just because inner ear vibrations have now been documented, doesn't mean that a PRE-SETUP of body positioning isn't neccessary to launch the state.

I think we are all getting closer. The biggest discovery though was (and should be for years) the fact that the Angular Gyrus controls the conscience/physical connection and I hope that LOTS OF MONEY is spent on that - and NOT money used for military supremicy, but for the humane treatment of humans who need to move their conscienceness away from a painful dying body.

More later

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Shredder says:

The loud 'vibration' as some call it, I called the loud rushing sound, it was as if I could hear the blood rushing though my viens. But I am certain this is the vibrating, that people often associate with demonic visitation. Its physiological, and goes along with my thoery that there needs to be a specific physical state that precedes OBE.

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Beemaster Writes:

Shredder:

I think that MUCH of the mystery of the process is fogged by UFO abucties (or alledged abducties) that cannot explain the symptoms of OBE without saying they MUST have been abducted or at least paralysed by a alien stun gun while the ET rummaged through their undies drawer. It is a shame too, the whole subject gets muddied by folks who have little or no understanding of the topic.

You said a rushing sound is what you get for a vibration state - I've mentioned that I get the feeling as if I am in a parked car with HUGE TRUCKS passing me at high speed, I think THAT is the best way I can describe it accurately. Although at times it is very electrical feeling, and sometimes bordering painful (if the separation takes too long) but it really does seem that we can all relate to it in like terms.

Just as anything else (whether pain or pleasure) we can all relate to the symptoms closely enough to prove it is a similar experience we share. My whole goal is to be aware enough to orchestrate the event as much as possible. and to constantly chip away at the unneccessary stuff that often prevents the OBE from occuring.

In a perfect world, I think there would be little to no noticable symptoms between stages: we would just leave and rejoin the body and while away constantly improve our control of where we go and what we do.

Anyways... back to work and write again soon!

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Q_dmc12 writes:

Hi BeeMaster, I was just skimming your first post then remembering a self-induced (volentary) OBE I had about... oh, i'd say 7 (or so) years ago that only lasted about 2 seconds(it was not a feeling of that above my body but below it), and realizing that I had no "static feeling". Now I have some theories here, one, I did not leave my body - only begin the first stage of the OBE. Actually, that's basically the only theory [right now] other than everones OBEs are different - I remember [sort of] 'seeing' through my eyelids and everything had a blue'ish tint. (I'm kinda tired right now, maybe I'll add some more later.)

Laterz....

EDIT: Oh - yeah, and no paralysis afterward. Although a feeling of mild hyperactivity and yet [felt] weak.

POST LATER FROM SAME FELLA

okay, I just tried it, i got to the part w/ the random voices but felt myself drifting towards the dream state. There was a a brief 5 to 10 mins of weightlessness but no static-cling feeling. I DID get a leg jolt though and sort-of paniced as I started to see a goldish ....not so much as light but that explains it the best - so light but not light....eh, whatever. So I not so much as woke-up as ...'came to' abruptly due to panic but tried to compose myself {SIDE_NOTE: I WAS using ear plugs to concentrate on the "loud silence" as I call it that comes just before the random voices [and music...] as I have experienced such before.} and, idk, ....lost concentration - this is when I started drifting to the dream state. ANYWAY, after a while of trying to get another "jolt" (and failing of course) I decided it was time to ...to ....stop trying ...and..-come to. In doing so [losing the numbness in my limbs] I found myself feeling ....chilled-cold actually, my ceiling fan is on and that didn't help (thats the main reason for the ear-plugs). As I got up I felt ..basically weak, as if I was over-worked - But NOT tired, just weak ....it took effort to walk. I still feel a lil' loss of strength as that was only about 10 to 12 minutes ago that I ..came-to.

On another side note, I kinda feel energized, kinda hyper'ish. Its an excited feeling but nervous, twitchy, shakey as if I just got off a really fast roller-coaster.

I feel GREAT! - and twitchy!

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Lone Crow Wrote:

Hmm I haven't been able to read it all because I have to run, but from what I've seen, its good material. Most of which I've read already though.

I've got astral dynamics by Robert Bruce, and participate in his website's message boards etc on this subject.

I've been trying for close to a year with no luck so far. I've had some unusual things happen, and some new things happen to me in my life that never happened before. I've had some vivid dreams but that is nothing other than normal for me. I've tried and tried and used different techniques.

The only conclusion I've been able to find so far is that I've got blockages somewhere. I threw my back out last week, oddly enough and was in massive pain, (pinched nerve) and the wierd part is that I can feel energy moving through my back way better now than before. It was sort of odd that maybe I got the injury on purpose to help my energy circulation. Just gotta keep trying I guess.

Also when I get horizontal, I tend to fall asleep. Its hard to do this so its also hard to find time in a quiet place where you can sit upright comfortably to attempt astral projection.

I've also used the brainwave generator as well. The only thing thats worked for me was one lucid dream preset that did induce a vivid,but I wouldn't say lucid dream. All the rest are hogwash.

I keep trying though. I have an inner feeling that you almost have to be at inner peace in your life at the time for you to be "ready" for travel. Maybe I'm not mentally ready yet, though I darn well want to.

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Shredder Writes:

Welcome lone crow. If your into the subject, this is one of my favorite threads. All I can say is to reitterate that I had all these experiences which sound typical to you, BEFORE i had heard about OBE's . That is the strangest thing to me. When I started reading someone elses account and it so closely matched mine. I have not posted all of it. Perhaps I will someday.

I don't get OBE's anymore.

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ZAR WRITES:

I just found this thread and its almost midnite, so won't say much at this time as sleep calls, although this is one of my favorite subjects, i.e. obes, oobes, astral projection. Though I havn't been out of the body lately, I have had very many experiences and have some definite ideas about the phenomenon. Basically I believe whether in the body or out of the body we are stilll conscious entities on this planet. ( or off this planet as some exps may take you )Secondly, after one of these experiences, you don't "wake up". Instead you become aware" of the physical body again. I believe different individuals may experience many different symptons immed prior to a trip -- vibrations, whooshing sound, loud rumbling like a train, a sense of a presence at your side (as if to help or guide you out), the sound of paper rattling or being walked on, the sense of wings fluttering near you, and a number of others. The one time I experienced paralysis, I thought to "will" myself up and "out" successfully and had an experience with another person which was later confirmed by that person. Most exps were involuntary, but a couple, happened after the ritual of steady quiet breathing and complete relaxation on the verge of sleep with body feeling numb, but with focussed consciousness. But more later.......................

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Beemaster Writes:

Great to see this post goes on and on, as I think it should - the topic has real merit and to me it gives me hope that there is something beyond this world for us all.

The more I think about it, the more I awaken to the idea that WE ARE HERE to EXPERIENCE the physical world, as to give "prospective" to our conscience rhelm which I believe will be for enternity (or at least as long as the Universe is around).

It's like a painter or photographer who states (and rightly so) that without the LIGHT, you cannot see the dark. We have to conscienciously aquaint opposites in every aspect of life: the good and the bad, heat and cold, wet and dry, salty and sweet - you cannot appriciate the differences of each opposite WITHOUT knowing the EXTREME of the opposite. Pleasure and pain is a great example; imagine if you have NEVER been sick, you could not really know how GREAT feeling well is!

I think conscience and body are "given" to us (or at least exist, even if it is just a state of exististance without divine intervention) and thankfully we are smart enough to know that both can and do exist.

I wonder though, does conscienceness "EVOLVE" as the physical being does? Are the two at the opposite ends of a wishbone, both heading toward an apex LATER in the evolutionary process? Does the conscience being take over as the NEXT step of man's evolution - you all know the drawing of man going through the many stage from a four footed crawler to an erect homosapian - will the next printing of the drawing include a symbol illustrating a consciencious creature - or maybe a physical being that is hairless with large eyes, long neck and greatly resemble the TALL WHITES from the great black triangle UFOs?

Where we are going, I don't pretend to know - but I think HUMANS are due (if not over-due) for a species upgrade and I wonder, do they just appear one day amoung us, are they born from human women (appearing NORMAL until puberty and then all hell breaks loose and they wipe out our species within a single generation) after they mature into a much different creature than did the parent generation.

Personally, I still think we may be implanted here on this planet, as a creature that would survive well in this enviroment and atmosphere - that does NOT mean that somewhere way back, that there wasn't a Godly creation of our species, I'm just saying MAYBE it didn't happen HERE on Earth.

I think (in all of us) LURKS a conscience creature, one that is a part of the Universal energy that makes all things both exist and possible - but we are controlled by the FLESH because it is SO WEAK compared to the spirit.

If we hurt, we take pain meds. We seek pleasure of all kinds whether moralistically or sinfully. It is obvious that during our time IN-FLESH we are ruled by it's petty requirements. I believe that the Bible, Christianity and probibly all SANE and SENCIBLE RELIGIONS are "MAN'S ATTEMPT" to explain the differences between IMMORTALITY and IMMORALITY. I don't know personally of the other religious writings, but the Bible does a pretty good job of explaining an every lasting existance "even if" it is written in parable.

I do not doubt Jesus was a LIVING MAN who walked the Earth 2100+ years ago, but he very well could have been a charasmatic man like a JOEL OSTEEN who preeches to millions today. Not comparing the two men beyond the thinking that both deliver a wonderful message of being moral and being kind and how it pays off in the end. Would a Joel Osteen two thousand years ago have such an impact on man "IF" he delivered a similar message - except for the who whole RESURECTION part of Christ's life, I think Osteen COULD have been a moralistic leader amoung men in ancient times.

My own writings fall short of what I want to say - always. I do my best to put into words the thoughts that come to my mind, yet I wonder "How are my words received, as I meant them to, in a parable of some greater understanding - maybe a spark to ignite your own ideas and beliefs?

That (and I'm not comparing) must have been the thinkings of the men who wrote all the great scriptures and promises of God - did they (even though inspired by God, feel reluctance in their final drafts? Man is flawed and not even the aposiles were perfect, but they did THEIR BEST JOB at explaining "Eternal Life" if you follow the teachings of Jesus!

I do believe Jesus (whether the son of God or a very enlightened man) was very much on the right track and his understanding that we are creatures of flesh and spirit was VERY intuitive. For thousands of years Asian cultures have understood the benefits of meditation, tai-chi, accupuncture and all the connections of conscience and flesh.

I know in my heart and mind that it all interacts; numerology, science, evolution, creationism, astrology, astronomy, string theory and all the other stuff that we either believe has merit or think of as hooey. How it all shuffles and intertwines is way beyond my comprehension, I'm thrilled to be AWARE enough to know that it is ALL is a huge collaberation of stuff "that all somehow really really works" and it involves and effects everything in the Universe.

Great posts as always gang. Someday, I'd love to call George Noory and talk about all this - a dream fantasy would be to be a guest if only for a short segment, but except for a few dozen pages of ideas, I bring nothing new to the table. Who knows, I could get lucky on the first time caller line some night and I'd be sure to say hi to the Coast Riders from Beemaster

Best wishes in the new year to all - more coming soon, I hope to hear from some of you have said you have read most of the thread and just haven't got a chance to write yet. I know writing comes easy for some and hard to others, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this topic. Peace!_________________Beemaster

END OF POSTS IN STRING

LATE BEE, hope you read everything - it was a powerful collection of thoughts (many mine - ) but some great input from so many others.

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Yes John I have read it and I thank you! So many things here that are totally new to me. For ex. never heard of RIRV, but 20 years ago I never heard of REM either. I know I will have to read and reread this many times over and then chew on it further. Extemely interesting and your thoughts raise questions and answer others. It takes courage to put to paper beliefs that are not mainstream. So count yourself among the brave.

I know what you mean about MAINSTREAM - it's just another example of expecting to be politically correct in public and express your true thoughts behind closed doors.

I have never feared being called strange or odd - I take pride in the ability to be able to somewhat express views that are stimulating to those willing to accept that there may be rhelms of reality beyond the few that we can see, hear, smell, taste and touch.

Just think of the color and sound spectrums we are limited to - imagine all the colors and sounds we can't see or hear - and if we could, what WOULD we see or hear????

Anyway, we'll cover those topics next time - thanks for your honesty and having the Darkside allows everyone a forum to "let loose" and "let think" for a change about the magical stuff our universe is made of. I would love to live long enough to see PROOF of LIFE elsewhere in the Universe, I can't see US going to THEM, but there is still always a chance THEY with come to US and finally reveal themselves.

I do though believe that both friendly and hostile societies can exist, only because in human nature (as with everything in the world) we have the good and the bad, and warring parties could aways agree to take their battle to a neutral planet - ugh.

Talk soon and until then, I'll crawl back under my camoflage netting with my teddy bear

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

I was reading from the Coast to Coast forum one day about OBE's. I was searching for more info through Google and low and behold I stumbled here! Imagine my surprise when I found this lively discussion on a subject of which I was quite fond. I began reading...and reading...and reading and WOW! What a find!

I come from over 30 years of curiousity about the unknown. I am a scientist kinda guy, studying many aspects of the universe and nature in my spare time. Science is my passion. The unknown fascinates me.

You know quite a thing or two about OBE's and I want to know more. That is why I am here. I have read all of this topic on this board and I have a question.

When I was about 7 years old I had a recurring dream. I was standing in front of my house on a beautiful sunny day and I would move my arms slowly, up and down, and I would start to rise up. Each time I pushed my arms down, I moved up and up. I would float up twenty feet and simply by leaning to one side I would start to float in the direction I leaned. This was very enjoyable as I flew around, slowly. That was over forty years ago and I still remember it. I must have had that same dream 7 or 8 times back then.

Glad you took the time to read all the posts here and there at C2C forum - It is a topic I really enjoy and AS YOU DO, I like to look at it scientifically.

It is interesting to here you mention something that borders TWO worlds of OBE, the conscience OBE movements of Tai-chi and Yoga and the non-conscience realism of OBEs which occur less voluntary - as through the general processes of sleep paralasys, vibration, etc..

My wife is an intermediate yogi (she can do some interesting balances and poses and tranfers from one to another seemingly effortless - where I first found OBE by practicing the SLINKY technique where you raise and lower each hand (palmes flat and facing up) and slowly raising one as you lower the other and imagine the weight of a slinky shift from one hand to the other. This technique took me weeks to get a OBE feeling to occur.

Now, OBE means many things to many people, but I say that ANYTIME you experience your conscience body (even if it is only ENERGY shifting from one hand to another) it is an OBE and PROOF to the person experiencing it that OBEs are real.

After a few more tries, and moving the hand around so that the energy could move about differently too, I realised that with practice that the energy could MOVE AWAY from the hand and return - an actual separating of conscience energy and physical body - a MAJOR STEP in understanding that the two can not only be EXPERIENCED beyond the INNER SELF, and then felt around the hands in a very magnetic feeling field, BUT then gain knowledge that the energy could pass OUT and AWAY from the body and return to it AT WILL and while in an awake state.

These are really the goals of meditation, Tai-chi and Yoga, but also experienced by people every day when driving to work as they mechanically control the car but their mind wonders about thinking and even doing a dozen other things - the missing time syndrome which also fits into the who UFO abduction issues that often get confused with OBE by people who would rather claim an alien pulled them out of bed and floated them up into space, in stead of admitting (to themselves or others) that they may have experienced an OBE.

I often think it is people who either have no faith in a creator, or people who think they will offend a creator if they mention what really happened. Both types of people are closed minded about the possibility that we are separate creatures - basically a CONSCIENCE CREATURE living its life in a PHYSICAL BODY.

That is why we get in trouble so often (as a species) we let the physical body WHICH through hormones and testosterones, etc., often do terrible things that breaks both man's law and God's law - the flesh is weak to temptation, but the conscience being is the eternal creature, it just doesn't have the KEYS TO THE CAR and is STRAPPED into a baby seat (figuratively).

Your repeated experience is interesting - I have a odd sensation, very realistic which only happen whens I tend to drift off to sleep (probably only 2 times a year) I'll see a LION LIKE CREATURE jump over an object like a fence or something right toward me - the whole event lasts but 2 seconds, and the lion creature is never more than 5 feet away, but I always wake up and it has occure so many times, I rarely have trouble eracing the event and going about my atttempt to sleep.

I think your hand movements up and down ARE dictating the movements of your body - in theory (my theory I guess) when you are in a position where OBE can occure (and I do think your experience is likely an OBE of sorts - again, there are many) then slight movements of hands, feet, hips or anything can cause the BALANCED condition you are in to LEAN toward a direct of choice whether up, down, back, forth, right left, etc..

Long distand runners have watched themselves from above as they run a race, separate from body - some have said they LEAN a slight bit forward to allow the ENERGY of CONSCIENCENESS to LEAD the way for the physcial body to follow - using minute' energy as a tow rope to help pull the body along!!!!

What reason you revisit THIS experience is something that I am sure is locked away in your mind somewhere. The sense of smell often triggers repetitive memory, lucid dreams or OBEs. Ofactory really is a major contributor to the memory, where inner ear balance is a gateway to the angular gyrus which controls the unlock mechanism to the mind/spirit connection.

Remember too that the human spirit lives in the lower bowels, the intestinal region of the body - accupunture points can be traced from THERE to the gyrus region, so these connections have been known by nerve-ending practicioners for thousands of years.

Western medicine is so far behind the Easter teaching and treatments, we think that the only way to find how to fix someone is to wait until they are dead and then cut them up - or Chemo them to death, meanwhile, somewhere locked in the vastness and millions of miles of nerves in the body lies the cures for everything - I perfer PREVENTION over cure, but all we ever hear is eat well and exercise - you never hear "get to know your conscience being, ask it to scan and heal your body - ask it to let you know EARLY if there is a problem and ask it to always help in the healing process too"

My doctor (as with most) does one thing, figures out which PILLS to give me, beyond that I'm sent to specialists who take pictures of me and then give me different pills. SOMETHING is wrong with that process.

For you, if it were me... Every night when I'm NOT rushed for sleep, I'd try to go back to that spot, telling myself to look around, spot every trees, road, rock, flowers, animals, everything of importance - weather, wind, smells, sounds. Slowly compile these things and go through the list each time over and over again until one day - it is so real, you ARE there and know why and then control the situation better than you every have before.

It sounds like a tease - a look into baceball field through a hole in a picket fence - always seeing the game, but never in the ball park - you need to get into the ballpark and then I believe many answers and FURTHER adventures may come.

Write back any time!!!!

PS... sorry for any spelling errors, I don't have my reading glasses on and my spell-checker isn't on this computer. Peace.

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Since I want to know more and since I have read the complete forum, I have ordered, "The Secret of the Soul : Using Out-of-Body Experiences to Understand Our True Nature" by William L. Buhlman and "Adventures Beyond the Body (4-CD Set)", William Buhlman; Audio CD. I have listened to his spots on C2C and have seen his website.

This along with "The Lucid Dreaming Kit" by Bradley Thompson. I am finally going to do more than just read about it stuff!

As I have the time to play with this now, I can report on my experiences.

I thank you and all the members of this board for giving me the kick in the tush to finally get moving on this. I am looking forward toward the experiences Bradley speaks of that can come in short order. I hear you, oh great BeeMaster, that steady the course must be observed. I have plenty of patience as all good scientists have. But I intend to prevail and put the naysayers in their places.

I am coming from the right place as far as frame of mind...wide open to all new experiences. From all my reading, (my exclusive library contains over 2000 volumes of goodies) I anticipate success slow and steady.

One last thing, oh great BeeMaster, though you think you only have so many things to say, many people have written books with less. Seriously think of writing a book. You have a way of writing which is compelling. Put your glasses on, engage that spellchecker and blast away, and in no time you are helping countless people find their way through the world of the 'unknown' and turning it into the fascinating world of the 'newly discovered'!

Beemaster, I received the, "Secret of the Soul" and found out my dreams I mentioned at 7 years old probably were OBE's. Cool! Flying as you mentioned is in some ways commensurate to OBE's.

I have started working with the CD's of "Adventures Beyond the Body". They work together...as you work with the first CD, and the second is an extension of the first, the third is an extension of the second and so on. I guess this would be expected. In other words the 4 CD's are one big program as opposed to the four CD's covering 4 different aspects of the same topic.

I personally think the "Secret of the Soul" information is essential background to incorporate into the experience of the "Adventures..." CD's.

Then I just received the "Lucid Dreaming Kit" yesterday. It's also rather interesting but I am yet to justify the expense. I will be reporting on my experiences with that as well. As a matter of fact, I will begin this program tonight. Since I am one of those that hasn't remembered dreams for the most part over the past 30 years, and the author states this works with people like me as well...we will see.

The thing is when I was 16, I suffered a stroke and developed encephalitis when I was admitted to the hospital. I was written off and was expected to live for three days. (That was 34 years ago.) I used to remember my dreams back then quite well. Since the stroke, I no longer have the ability to remember my dreams. Plus my short term memory is not the greatest. Although, I get by quite well.

I am wondering if that experience will impair my ability to experience OBE's once again! I will keep those interested posted.

Great success in your adventures, I think your outlook and openness will take you a long ways!!!

Thanks for the kind words on my writing, I have always believed that my one true gift is writing. I enjoy many things, but none come as easy as putting words to a keyboard - "It" in itself is a meditative experience I believe, a way for me to warp time, sometimes I see an hour or more go into a letter which I swear I had only started minutes before.

A point you make is interesting - my beliefs are as valid as any I have read. I don't mean that braggingly, I just think I have slowly assembled a series of ideas that makes practical sense to the scientific minded part of me. Not that I leave out spirituality either, I HIGHLY believe that we are the real deal, the children of God and is it so strange for any Bible believing religion to comprehend a conscious being living here on Earth to experience a physical life?

If I'm not mistaken, that is a very good parable of many books of scripture. I just know that you shouldn't have to die to experience the REAL you, I don't think we were made that way and I don't believe it was meant to be this way. It goes back to that "we have 5 senses thing" it has killed our creativity and bound our conscious to our physical bodies needlessly. So who knows, I may just tackle that book some day, I sure have read weaker theories on this subject. Besides... do I think I could write 300-400 pages on this subject??? No doubt in my mind :)

And yeah... the spell check thingy I'm taking care of that these days, unless of course I forget to spend that extra 30 seconds it takes to choose the right words. I know I spell conscious about 12 ways and get science in there too often :?

PS... how was that spelling :D

But I wonder about your stroke and what may have happened, both physically (in the ability to process information from a subconscious state) and also the literal conduit I believe is needed for all information pass from being to body. It may sound the same, but I think there are differences.

You obviously (or hope to) have all the necessary "train stations", but may be missing the right connecting tracks which normally get signals from here to there without stopping any trains on the track, continuous travel of energy seems necessary to me. But I DO BELIEVE that even if damage is done to your "rail lines", rerouting is one of the things the brain does best.

The only added problem could be that you FIRST need to know which OLD tracks served the correct route and then consciously reroute the trip in order to accomplish the trip in a way that still works fluidly.

A lot of such thinking is mind over matter, I believe THAT to be true. But some is retraining, but it isn't as if you are trying to get a different part of the brain to operate a limb which no longer gets the electrical signals from where they started.

I stick to my belief we are conscience creatures on a physical voyage - one which we are NEVER taught that can be experienced separately. Sadly, it comes later in life, after decades of NOT using these "muscles" and they are tough to get excited again.

Knowing that you can separate your being from body is the major key - belief ISN'T everything, but it sure makes the voyage easier. I have done most of my reading on the Internet and listened to many radio shows over the years since my first experiences. I still proclaim that the paralysis state is the most horrifying thing you will ever experience IF you have no idea what is happening - surely you think you broke your neck while sleeping, or something as horrible.

I just finished working midnight and I want to mention a few more details, but I'm pooped. I'll be back at the keyboard later tonight and finish up on some important thoughts. But I think you are doing good, gathering the experiences of others, trying to put LOGIC to this is an obstacle for many.

I challenge anyone to watch Cirque Du Soleil and all the magical performances which stretch the human body BEYOND its limits and into the world on a conscience being. These people "need to go to a special place" away from the overwhelming surroundings of people, lights, music, other performers. I read that MUSIC is often the catalyst for these performers, they KEY into the vibrations of the notes, the unique sounds and frequencies of the instruments and they RIDE these tones like waves of water and light.

Again, and I'll end in the most important thing that I believe I have learned - actually two things.

Balance (equilibrium) plays a huge part in igniting the conditions needed for OBE, head placement, relaxation in a position where the inner ear fluids are allowed to flow back and forth like the bubble in a level (I have to remember this wording) and secondly...

You need to either be doing EVERYTHING (like that Cirque Du Soleil performer balancing on one hand upside down while juggling 7 balls) or doing NOTHING as in a meditative or relaxed state. OBE can come in under these two states only (I believe) you have to either empty or fill your BODY in order to allow your conscience to escape the body's hold.

I explained this before in some post as either ZERO or 360 and all or nothing theory of mine which I have NEVER seen disproved in accounts of OBE articles. It is the Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner vs. the levitating Monk theory of mine which I hope you put faith in, it will take you far in your quest. More soon, nice chatting on this amazing topic.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

I experienced the stroke on October 1st, 1972. I missed all but the first month of my junior year in high school. The funny thing was as I started the school year I was experiencing the most elated experience at that time in my life. I was in swimming class in P.E. and I enjoyed swimming at the deep end of the pool. At our pool the deep end was 12 feet deep. I would swim down there and look around, enjoying the view. At that time I was able to hold my breath a while.

All my classes were amazingly easy now. I was having the time of my life...no worries, no school problems. I had signed up for a load of classes so I would be able to graduate high school in three years and I was well underway. In freshman year I took Algebra and flunked it (the first and only class I ever flunked...I knew it was due to my horrible teacher). In my junior year I signed up and took Advanced Algebra and Trigonometry and I was flying through the class. Everything made total sense! My mind was clear, as I had ever experienced in my whole life! In that class I was the number one student. I had done all the exercises 100 pages ahead of the class! My mind was working flawlessly...until Oct 1, 1972...the date that will live in infamy (for me).

I experienced numbness in my right side and the stroke had started. I was admitted that day and spent 4.5 months in the hospital! I was not expected to survive the first three days since I contracted encephalitis in the hospital at the same!!!!! (Bastards!) I was in bad enough shape with the stroke to have to deal with encephalitis too! Fortunately I survived it all and I was able to re-join my class in Senior year and finish with them since I was so far ahead...lucky me for preparing! Strange the way life works...isn't it?

Don't ask me if I ever experienced any OBE's then since I certainly knew nothing of them at that time. I did experienced strange time in intensive care for a month trying to recover. I was a mess.

I had been fascinated in science since second grade (I was a strange kid). Then I started reading Science Fiction. That fired up my imagination big time! My paranormal interests began mostly after my hospital stay. I started reading anything and everything about the unknown. I tried my luck writing science fiction. That was fun. I was told to write my memoirs of the hospital stay. I was young and never got around to writing them. I should have. All was in my mind waiting to be put on paper. Such is the life of a kid!

I went on to college, then another, then another, then another, over 16 years (working in-between). Finished with Majors in Math, Science, Pre-Law, Aviation, and minors in Business Management, Computer Science and English Literature. I was desperate to learn all I could learn! The paranormal interests stayed with me all along in the background. I went on to get all the Amatuer Radio licenses (got my Novice at 16, my parents gave it to me the second day I went to the hospital...it came in the mail!) from Novice to Amatuer Extra. I achieved Federal Certification as an aviation mechanic which was a phenominal feat in itself. I later achieved computer certifications: A+, Network +, MCP, CCNA certs. Yes, I think I survived the stroke...I was very lucky.

I got involved in brain/mind re-education deeply and contacted the John-David Learning Institute and purchased some of their products like the "Brain/Mind Expansive Intensive" to help in the re-circuiting of my mind. This has been used successfully with brain-damaged soldiers and others that need rehabilitation due to damage to neural pathways. I have many other titles such as "Brain Speak", the "Ultra-Intelligence" series, "Whole Brain Reading", then "Photo Reading" and "Genius Code" from the folks at Learning Strategies.

These have helped me tremendously and still are helping me today. I am no genius but I was very determined to rehabilitate myself since nobody else had any interest in the task. My sheer determination had kept me going all these years. My '2000 book library' is loaded with plenty of topics that would make some people drool. I explore the coolest science I can get my hands on. The cooler, the better!

My trains might not ALL be in order quite yet... Thus I am working with the "Brain/Mind Expansive Intensive" once again to get my mind in tip-top shape. (The tape set is better since it has instructions for use but the cd set is more durable.) It is said it is able to re-write the neural pathways. It's strange in the beginning as the pathways are re-written. It seems you are forgetting more often, then a few weeks into the program thoughts come faster and faster.

This material (OBE's) is the latest of my past interests, reborn. As I said earlier, you peaked my interests once again and now I am ready to explore again with renewed vigor!

There was a reason I mentioned my swimming experiences in high school! I am sure you have heard of Win Wenger, Ph.D. He wrote the book, "The Einstein Factor". Take note!!! This book gave me the reasoning behind my astonishing scholastic achievement during my first month of junior year in swimming class. Check out Chapter 11-called the, "Oxygen Factor". This presents extremely powerful information with which can greatly increase brain function in ways that nothing else can!!!It finally makes sense!

Another book, "Brain States" by Tom Kenyon, M.A. speaks of breathing exercises, and other methods very effective for increasing intelligence, creativity and language abilities.

I cannot stop wanting to learn more and more!!! There are too many cool things to learn! What I am facing is the epitome of all coolness...lucid dreaming and OBE's. This is my next part in my intellectual (and maybe my spiritual) evolution.

A few notes about what I have written thus far. The stroke was not brought on by my underwater exploits! Or maybe it was. I have a congenital condition, which is very, very rare called 'disfibrinogenemia' which is the most likely cause of my stroke. Not underwater swimming!

I expect anyone reading this to do yourself a huge favor and look into breathing exercises. The brain works on O2. Swimming is one of the easiest ways to do the excercises and is fun, as well. My phenomenal improvement only took less than one month! No drugs, just fun! Look into the books, SERIOUSLY!!!!! Especially "The Einstein Factor". Amazing stuff.

Who knows what this can do for paranormal enhancement/education and activities?

I guess I caught the writing bug, like the Beemaster! Sorry...

P.S. I just proof-read this mess and, no, I have no financial interest in the products I mentioned. They are simply the best I have come across in my lifetime, so far, and I wanted to share.

I am 2/3rds through "The Secret of the Soul" by William Buhlman. WOW!What a collection of information about OBE's, spiritual encounters, consciousness evolution and plenty more. There are step by step directions of how to do it all and how to direct your consciousness in the proper direction toward your own ultimate spiritual elightenment.

I have read various books on OBE's and astral travel and this one takes the cake! This one has plenty of background on OBE's and loads of experiences from thousands of people which took a survey on this very subject.

This forum has, as I mentioned earlier peaked my curiousity something fierce. I understand so much more on the subject as I can piece together the ideas presented here and combine what I have been reading.

I am already preparing nightly for my first self-initiated OBE. Some of you are way ahead of me but I will catch up very soon. I will be conveying my findings as they develop.

Wish me luck!

Thanks to all for helping me on my way...this is sooooo interesting! 8)))

I have been truly inspired by the accounts from you, Shredder and Powerpc1 most of all. I am driven to forge forward and have that elusive OBE.

I have been reading in, "The Secret of the Soul" (SS) about the help Mind Machines offer to people when getting to the "state". Well, I just happen to own a Nova Pro from Photosonics. This device is apparently highly touted as being one of the best programmable units existing today.

There are some programs within the ROM that address directly OBE's and also deep meditating techniques. I never noticed them (there are 50 total) until I read the reference in SS. I have more to explore now!

I understand some consider mind machines to be a crutch but I want to experience OBE's as soon as practical. My problem at this early time in my adventures is I fall asleep. I get too relaxed and fall asleep. So much for my conscious awareness! When I awake I have no recollection of anything having happened to me.

I think I might have mentioned earlier, ever since the stroke I rarely recall any dreams. I do dream, I just don't recall most. So my quest continues.

P.S. Beemaster, Just tell me when to shut up until I have something substantive to contribute - any time you want. I'll comply.

Life has been busy here and my forum time has been very limited. The one thing I try NOT to do id make the forum a FULL TIME JOB and sometimes with spam-members needing deleting, some posts needing modifying, replying to about 100 emails a day, etc - I get lost in the world of the forum and neglect the truly important things, my wife and sickly mother.

I really enjoyed your last post a lot, and I'll be answering your letter soon with lots of comments - but it seems you already have your mind tuned well. I love OBE talk and not too many people do it, so don't go away.

I'll be at work tonight 3-11pm and I should have time to sit down and write back. What I want to do is start listing some exercises which promote the conscious to leave the body - home spun Tai-Chi exercises, just to show how it feels to experience the physical and conscious at the same time. Then as I gather content, add some photos and build a full section off of my main OBE web-page Smile

So, no one is ignoring you - it has been a tremendous growth time - lots of members have not only joined the forums, but are very active learning about beekeeping at all levels - that is something that I really enjoy to see happen. The activity is amazing when you count the posts and replies, the numbers can be in the hundreds a day now.

I'll do my best to write tonight. I left you with a cliff hanger - the mime I mentioned in the last post of course is Tai-Chi movements to bring out the conscious energy in you. Once you get to play with it, you can recognize it easier later on - that is the first goal in OBE.

"Awakening Mind 1, Creating Sound and Light Sessions on Advanced Programmable Mind Machines" by James Mann does a great job helping one with enlightenment when using Mind Machines. He offers many technique goodies not normally mentioned in the instruction manuals of those machines and helps you get the most out of them.

I just downloaded the pdf after buying the book so I will report on this promising hunk of info as soon as I digest it. It is 102 pages!

I just finished "The Secret of the Soul". That book is worth its weight in gold to me. I will go over the book once again to extract the best parts and compile them. The techniques are invaluable and are making my journey into uncharted territories much easier to handle.

OBEs are intriguing, and I've had some experiences that might be termed them, but can they truly be called 'out of body experiences"? Because the senses that are most easily recalled during an OBE are the five bodily senses - the sensation of vibration (touch), etc... Some have said that OBE are near death experiences, but I think that the few times that I have felt disconnected with my body, in an alternate state of conciousness (possibly obe), that I was only in a distorted perceptive state of my bodily senses... not entirely disconnected, but removed so that they were not the foremost part of my mind...kind of a state where you are more concerned with the essences of things rather than what they seem to be in a human sense.

I think the human body is master of one's conciousness only so long as the mind permits it and subscribes to that belief... OBEs may be when the mind subconciously 'rebels' for periods of time to explore a realm that is immeasurable by the five corporeal senses. Then, when you 'come back', the experience must be translated, and thus we end up with these strange perceptions of vibrations, bright light...

My OBEs have usually been during the period between sleep and waking, when it seems you are somewhere else or doing something in the future... maybe it is then that the mind is freed, however fleetingly, from the constraints of this three-dimensional world, and is free to explore and exist in a state that has no material laws.

That is my theory...

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People will accept your ideas much more readily if you tell them Benjamin Franklin said it first. - David H. Comins