I just hope you're not one of the people that go, "Oops!" as they see the mushroom cloud mere seconds before they get vaporized. As you're fond of saying, ignorance is bliss.

Fear of the "what if"--a favorite tactic of facists since the beginning of time.

Quote:

No, this is a collective effort with one end, not allowing Iran to get a nuclear bomb. I really think Israel would head the effort, and I think most of it could be done through drones and an air strike. We wouldn't be "nation building" per se like we were doing in Iraq. There would be no need for ground troops, and it wouldn't cost 1/10th of what we spent in Iraq.

Yeah, and we were going to be welcomed as heroes in Iraq and the whole thing would only cost $100B and we'd pay for it with oil and it would be done in less than a year, right?

Sure, it probably wouldn't be as single-sided as Iraq, but going into Iran is opening Pandora's box. They have the 4th largest supply of oil in the world. They are indirect allies with Russia and China. We've been trying to destabilize their regime through clandestine methods since 1980. That's why they want nukes in the first place.

Iran was starting to westernize in the 1990s. Then they got labeled as part of the "axis of evil" and all that went out the window.

You want to defeat Iran's regime, you talk them down. You get McDonalds to setup shop. You sell them iPods loaded with American music. You put our movies in their theaters. Their radicalism will fade and they will see the light. Do we still think the Vietnamese are a threat?

February 23rd, 2012, 8:09 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Hey fellas, Iran isn't the scary part here! The mutual protection treaty that Iran and Russia have is the problem. If Iran is attacked, they are bound by treaty to engage the attacker on Irans' behalf. THIS IS WHAT IS SCARY!

This is why Iran is running around like a big dog, because they have one in their back pocket. Typical bully mentality, and although they need to be punched in the mouth, I don't know if it would be wise.

Now a cruise missle strike when all the Ayatollahs are together might be a good idea.

Are you serious? Why don't you just copy and paste your next article directly from the DNC or the Obama Administration next time? As I said initially:

Politifact!

So, no proof just more rhetoric, typical

I was just pointing out that Politifact is extremely biased and them saying something isn't true doesn't make it so. In their worldview, since Obama didn't say the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", then he didn't say something that could be considered as such.

Here are 10 of his apologetic statements from his World Apology Tour during the first 4 months of his presidency:

1. Apology to Europe: Speech in Strasbourg, France, April 3. “In America, there’s a failure to appreciate Europe‘s leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.”

2. Apology to the Muslim world: Interview with Al Arabiya, January 27. “My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect.”

3. Apology to the Summit of the Americas: Address to the Summit of the Americas, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17. “While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms.”

4. Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders: News conference in London, April 2. “I just think in a world that is as complex as it is, that it is very important for us to be able to forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions.”

5. Apology for the War on Terror: Speech in Washington, D.C., May 21. “Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight, that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions.”

6. Apology for Guantanamo in France: Speech in Strasbourg, France, April 3. “In dealing with terrorism, we can’t lose sight of our values and who we are. That’s why I closed Guantanamo. That’s why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices. I don’t believe that there is a contradiction between our security and our values. And when you start sacrificing your values, when you lose yourself, then over the long term that will make you less secure.”

7. Apology for America before the Turkish Parliament: Speech to the Turkish Parliament, Ankara, Turkey, April 6. “The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.”

8. Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas: Editorial “Choosing a Better Future in the Americas,” April 16. “Too often, the United States has not pursued and sustained engagement with our neighbors. We have been too easily distracted by other priorities, and have failed to see that our own progress is tied directly to progress throughout the Americas.”

9. Apology for the Mistakes of the CIA: Remarks to CIA employees at Langley, Va., April 29. “Don’t be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we’ve made some mistakes.”

10. Apology for Guantanamo: Speech in Washington, D.C., May 21. “There is also no question that Guantanamo set back the moral authority that is America’s strongest currency in the world.”

And this doesn't even include anything from his infamous Cairo speech from June 4, 2009, which could quite possibly be the most pathetic speech ever given by a sitting President. And don't even get me started on his bowing to Kings.

Good selective quoting sly. It's good that there are sites like politicfact that provide the full quotes, so the selected snippets can be put in their proper context.

Obama wrote:

the moral authority that is America’s strongest currency in the world.

Obama gets it.

WarEr doesn't, when he doesn't see the irony of describing Iran like this: "This is why Iran is running around like a big dog, because they have one in their back pocket. Typical bully mentality, and although they need to be punched in the mouth, I don't know if it would be wise.". This is how much of the world sees the US, I'm afraid (don't shoot the messenger, just passing that along). Obama has sensibly realised that combining military strength with moral authority is the best way for America's national interests to play out on the international stage. You'll find you get much more done, much more succesfully, with people on your side if your standing in the world is as a shining beacon of liberal* democracy alongside that of a militarily strong country that does not accept lesser standards (whether from enemies or allies).

(*in the old, John Locke, sense of the word of being against absolutism and for the rule of law - I am not suggesting America must be left leaning and am not using the word "liberal" here in the sly sense of "communist")

The alternative was to continue down the Bush path, of sacrificing standards and ideals for (purported) "security". Achieving only the former, whilst having the exact opposite effect on the latter.

February 24th, 2012, 6:17 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: What is so special about Israel?

Sorry UK, but you really need to step away from the tea and crumpets!

the reason the world views the US as a bully is because we as a people still firmly hold to personal freedoms and common law. Even one of your own parlimenatrians has illustrated how wrong the British government has been in placating to the liberalism thinking. He just gave a very educational speech at CPAC, sadly I didn't catch his name. His warning was very clear, "we (British) are doing everything we can to put the brakes on to keep from going over the cliff, and when we look into the rear view mirror we see the US accelerating."

We as a country have not done everything right, I mean what can you expect from fallen, sinful men? By the way, it's a human condition, and not solely US. There are and have been people in office who have led us in the wrong direction, or enacted laws that were not appropriate.

In looking at it from a higher view point, the combination of societal changes, moral decay, destructiong of the family unit, and much more; have all contributed to the quagmire we are in today.

Thankfully I know the end of this story, but that's a chat for another room, and many of you don't see it or care to.

the reason the world views the US as a bully is because we as a people still firmly hold to personal freedoms and common law.

There are plenty of countries in the world that hold to personal freedoms and common law. Not all of them are seen as bullies.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

We as a country have not done everything right, I mean what can you expect from fallen, sinful men? By the way, it's a human condition, and not solely US.

I completely agree. Obama recognising this fact is not the travesty that Santorum and others have tried to make out, it's common sense.

February 24th, 2012, 11:00 am

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: What is so special about Israel?

slybri19 wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Are you serious? Why don't you just copy and paste your next article directly from the DNC or the Obama Administration next time? As I said initially:

Politifact!

So, no proof just more rhetoric, typical

I was just pointing out that Politifact is extremely biased and them saying something isn't true doesn't make it so. In their worldview, since Obama didn't say the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", then he didn't say something that could be considered as such.

Here are 10 of his apologetic statements from his World Apology Tour during the first 4 months of his presidency:

1. Apology to Europe: Speech in Strasbourg, France, April 3. “In America, there’s a failure to appreciate Europe‘s leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.”

2. Apology to the Muslim world: Interview with Al Arabiya, January 27. “My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy. We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect.”

3. Apology to the Summit of the Americas: Address to the Summit of the Americas, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17. “While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms.”

4. Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders: News conference in London, April 2. “I just think in a world that is as complex as it is, that it is very important for us to be able to forge partnerships as opposed to simply dictating solutions.”

5. Apology for the War on Terror: Speech in Washington, D.C., May 21. “Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight, that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions.”

6. Apology for Guantanamo in France: Speech in Strasbourg, France, April 3. “In dealing with terrorism, we can’t lose sight of our values and who we are. That’s why I closed Guantanamo. That’s why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices. I don’t believe that there is a contradiction between our security and our values. And when you start sacrificing your values, when you lose yourself, then over the long term that will make you less secure.”

7. Apology for America before the Turkish Parliament: Speech to the Turkish Parliament, Ankara, Turkey, April 6. “The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans.”

8. Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas: Editorial “Choosing a Better Future in the Americas,” April 16. “Too often, the United States has not pursued and sustained engagement with our neighbors. We have been too easily distracted by other priorities, and have failed to see that our own progress is tied directly to progress throughout the Americas.”

9. Apology for the Mistakes of the CIA: Remarks to CIA employees at Langley, Va., April 29. “Don’t be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we’ve made some mistakes.”

10. Apology for Guantanamo: Speech in Washington, D.C., May 21. “There is also no question that Guantanamo set back the moral authority that is America’s strongest currency in the world.”

And this doesn't even include anything from his infamous Cairo speech from June 4, 2009, which could quite possibly be the most pathetic speech ever given by a sitting President. And don't even get me started on his bowing to Kings.

So are you saying that none of the things Obama has talked about here ever happened? Or that they did happen, but we should never admit it?

Remember reality is perception folks...

Quote:

Everything is true, from a certain point of view

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 24th, 2012, 11:46 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: What is so special about Israel?

UK Lion wrote:

Good selective quoting sly. It's good that there are sites like politicfact that provide the full quotes, so the selected snippets can be put in their proper context.

Obama wrote:

the moral authority that is America’s strongest currency in the world.

Obama gets it.

WarEr doesn't, when he doesn't see the irony of describing Iran like this: "This is why Iran is running around like a big dog, because they have one in their back pocket. Typical bully mentality, and although they need to be punched in the mouth, I don't know if it would be wise.". This is how much of the world sees the US, I'm afraid (don't shoot the messenger, just passing that along). Obama has sensibly realised that combining military strength with moral authority is the best way for America's national interests to play out on the international stage. You'll find you get much more done, much more succesfully, with people on your side if your standing in the world is as a shining beacon of liberal* democracy alongside that of a militarily strong country that does not accept lesser standards (whether from enemies or allies).

(*in the old, John Locke, sense of the word of being against absolutism and for the rule of law - I am not suggesting America must be left leaning and am not using the word "liberal" here in the sly sense of "communist")

The alternative was to continue down the Bush path, of sacrificing standards and ideals for (purported) "security". Achieving only the former, whilst having the exact opposite effect on the latter.

UK, I agree with you, to an extent. What troubles me, however, is that "diplomatic talk" and "moral authority" seem to be rife with political correctness and if the "other side" plays their cards and "plays the game" they can delay long enough to accomplish whatever evil ends they may have. Even when it is clear that the other side is stalling (see Sadam Hussein for an example - he was stalling the weapons inspections, lying, hiding things, etc.).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we went into Iraq under proper premises. I do not think we did. I do think that Iraq is better off with Sadam and Co. dead, but that is besides the point. But if you look at how the first war in Iraq ended, Iraq NEVER complied with the sanctions imposed against them, ever. They used "diplomatic" means of putting off the inspections indefinitely, they used WMDs on their own people to thwart and curb uprisings, and at the end of the day it took a major catastrophe on our soil to cause us to go in there and rectify the situation.

So are you saying that none of the things Obama has talked about here ever happened? Or that they did happen, but we should never admit it?

Remember reality is perception folks...

My perception is that it's unbecoming of a President of the United States to go on a World Apology Tour. The entire world knows what we've done, but you don't go around saying, "I'm sorry. We were really bad. I promise that we won't be like that anymore". In essence, that's exactly what Obama was saying and it's pathetic.

_________________

February 24th, 2012, 5:51 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: What is so special about Israel?

slybri19 wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

So are you saying that none of the things Obama has talked about here ever happened? Or that they did happen, but we should never admit it?

Remember reality is perception folks...

My perception is that it's unbecoming of a President of the United States to go on a World Apology Tour. The entire world knows what we've done, but you don't go around saying, "I'm sorry. We were really bad. I promise that we won't be like that anymore". In essence, that's exactly what Obama was saying and it's pathetic.

Fair enough, I can see where someone could interpret that.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 24th, 2012, 5:57 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: What is so special about Israel?

slybri19 wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Are you serious? Why don't you just copy and paste your next article directly from the DNC or the Obama Administration next time? As I said initially:

Politifact!

So, no proof just more rhetoric, typical

I was just pointing out that Politifact is extremely biased and them saying something isn't true doesn't make it so. In their worldview, since Obama didn't say the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", then he didn't say something that could be considered as such.

I'm curious about this. AFAIK PolitiFact is widely hailed as being non-partisan by BOTH Dems & Repubs. Could you provide some additional info on their bias?

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

February 27th, 2012, 2:51 pm

njroar

Team MVP

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3262

Re: What is so special about Israel?

As to the World Apology Tour: I have yet to see a single apology for any of the Arab states for their actions in recent history, not even counting past aggressions. You only see excuses or lies. The "moderates" who won't speak up against the fundamentalists are just as guilty. You can't come out and say "we're not all like that" and never condemn those that do. If you remain silent, you're part of it. Every apology we make only empowers them.

As to politifact, as with the rest of the "fact checker" sites is where the funding is coming from as well as what they cover. Not listing something that should be fact checked and ignoring it is just as bad as outright lying about it. I know it is a lot of content to be checked, but it shows bias when you leave facts out. Second is that a lot of what they fact check on, is up to debate. A lot of it is subject to perspective which often changes their minds. Facts can't change by opinion. When they regularly change their rating on a fact check, it diminishes their trustability. And when they list facts based on their interpretation of data, doesn't that classify as opinion rather than fact?

February 27th, 2012, 3:36 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: What is so special about Israel?

njroar wrote:

As to politifact, as with the rest of the "fact checker" sites is where the funding is coming from as well as what they cover. Not listing something that should be fact checked and ignoring it is just as bad as outright lying about it. I know it is a lot of content to be checked, but it shows bias when you leave facts out. Second is that a lot of what they fact check on, is up to debate. A lot of it is subject to perspective which often changes their minds. Facts can't change by opinion. When they regularly change their rating on a fact check, it diminishes their trustability. And when they list facts based on their interpretation of data, doesn't that classify as opinion rather than fact?

Do you have any specific cases that show their bias?

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

I'm curious about this. AFAIK PolitiFact is widely hailed as being non-partisan by BOTH Dems & Repubs. Could you provide some additional info on their bias?

First of all, name be one non-RINO Republican that considers Politifact non-partisan. I already know that you can't, so let's move on from that nonsense, shall we?

Next, I'm gonna ask you to do some work, if you don't object. Go ahead and dig into who runs and operates PolitiFact and look into their political affiliations. I could make it easy for you, but I wanna make you see it for yourself. I'll be waiting and will be accepting of your apology on this matter.

_________________

March 8th, 2012, 3:02 am

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: What is so special about Israel?

slybri19 wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

I'm curious about this. AFAIK PolitiFact is widely hailed as being non-partisan by BOTH Dems & Repubs. Could you provide some additional info on their bias?

First of all, name be one non-RINO Republican that considers Politifact non-partisan. I already know that you can't, so let's move on from that nonsense, shall we?

Next, I'm gonna ask you to do some work, if you don't object. Go ahead and dig into who runs and operates PolitiFact and look into their political affiliations. I could make it easy for you, but I wanna make you see it for yourself. I'll be waiting and will be accepting of your apology on this matter.

Still no proof eh? Figures. For the sake of argument, I can do some research, but for some reason I have the feeling that any Republican's name I might provide would immediately be dismissed as "RINO" in your eyes. Perhaps in the interest of expedience, you could be a good sport and provide a list of those you consider as non-RINOs, or RINOs, whichever might be easier / shorter for you. Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....