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Pakistan-based Islamist group Lashkar-e-Taiba killed 166 people in Mumbai after a series of gun and grenade attacks in November 2008. Picture: AP Source: AP

A TERROR plot to launch Mumbai-style attacks on Britain, France and Germany has been thwarted after the CIA ramped up missile strikes against militants in Pakistan's tribal regions.

The plan was in an advanced but not imminent stage and the plotters had been tracked by spy agencies "for some time", Sky News sources said.

Militants based in Pakistan were planning simultaneous strikes on London and major cities in France and Germany, similar to the commando-style raids carried out in Mumbai in November 2008, when Pakistan-based Islamist group Lashkar-e-Taiba killed 166 people in a series of gun and grenade attacks.

The European plot had been "severly disrupted" following intelligence sharing between Britain, France, Germany and the US.

It is not known whether the attackers are already in Europe.

When the terror plan came to light, the US military increased its drone strikes Pakistan's Waziristan region, in an attempt to kill the leaders behind the plot.

There have been a record 20 missile attacks using drone aircraft in the past 30 days.

The strikes, launched from unmanned drone aircraft, represent a rare use of the CIA's drone campaign to pre-empt a possible attack on the West.

News of the planned strikes came as the Eiffel Tower in Paris was evacuated because of a bomb scare for the second time in two weeks.

The all clear was given overnight following the evacuation, sparked by a phone call to the operator of the tower warning of a bomb.

On Monday, a major Paris train station was evacuated after a bomb alert that proved to be a false alarm.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

This thing was obviously interrupted in early stages and who knows what might happened and how much is beat up and how much serious threat.

But what I wanted to talk about about was why Islam is so violent? Is it a legitimate response to Western intrusion into the middle east?

An intrinsic part of the doctrine? A combination of these? Motivated by something else?

Islam seems to need an enemy and will contrive one if nothing pops its head up - the Great Satan, The West, The Brits, the christians, the dhimmis.

Look at that nutbag Ahmedinejad in Iran. Sure, he's deflecting attention from failed domestic policies but what a fucking creep.

Some one always seems to have to die. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes we could stop giving the bastards an excuse to kill people.

That way at least we would have the moral high ground.

Islam is violent because it hasn't had 200 years of a secular leash and enlightenment on it's governments. If you stripped the west of it's pluralistic governments and secular attitudes, it wouldn't take long for Christians to backslide into the theocratic tribalism of the past.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Islam is violent because it hasn't had 200 years of a secular leash and enlightenment on it's governments. If you stripped the west of it's pluralistic governments and secular attitudes, it wouldn't take long for Christians to backslide into the theocratic tribalism of the past.

EXACTLY. If it wasn't for American and western LAW that protects people regardless of what the believe then you'd have bands of Christians forcing people to convert just like they did for a THOUSAND years! Then they would threaten, hurt, and maybe even kill people who refused to buy into their fairy tale!

That's why Christianity has lost SOOOOOO much influence in the western world since it was always a religion that was forced upon the people and no other alternatives were given but now you are free to dump their troll. Eventhough studies show about 78% of the USA is Christian most Christians are CINO--Christians in name only and really don't practice much it at all.

Far fewer people take Christianity seriously than ever before and that's great for us!

Some one always seems to have to die. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes we could stop giving the bastards an excuse to kill people.

What about the other way around? What if they gave us a reason to get rid of them or minimize them?

After 9/11 some people speculated that another major terrorist attack could be the end of Islam in America or at least people would be so outraged that even the police wouldn't be able to stop some people's actions. At least further steps could be taken to restrict the rights of Islam. It's not unconstitutional if it's a threat to national security.

If a bunch of Muslims went into a shopping mall or hotel and just mowed down over 100 innocent people including children I don't think you'd be able to hold some people back from going after mosques and even Muslims and I'm NOT talking about people like us who would do it!!

1. The Koran tells them to be violent. It explicitly states that all unbelievers should be converted and if they refuse, they should be killed.

2. Islam will never be an economic power in its current form. First, they are not utilizing 50% of their resources. Women have brains and are able to contribute to the economy for more than hairdressing and manicures. Second, they may not loan money for any amount of interest - their usury laws are very strict. And no one wants to lend money for free to business enterprises run by unrelated persons. Not even most muslims.

Combine the two - poverty, unable to beat their chests in the world market places, lack of resources, and a religion that encourages ignorance and violence. Result - idiots who think blowing up stuff makes them some sort of religious heroes that will gain them notoriety and respect from other people - in their own country and in the west and especially in their nonexistent afterlife.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

The only Islamic nation that has a model to live in the real world economy we live in is Turkey and even they aren't completely normal. They have sectarian conflict there too and crazy fundies although not as bad as other Islamic states.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

But freedom loving rationalists and even religious people will band together to defeat the evil tyranny of Islam!! Even parts of Europe have started to fight back! I'm sure there are forces in Europe that will keep at least part of Europe European and won't let all of it become an Islamic continent!

As Darthjosh has already pointed out (and I firmly agree in this instance): atheism does not depend upon high birthrates to thrive, merely the presentation of convincing arguments by Hitchens, Dawkins, and their ilk, as well as people like Rich Woods being more interested in "truth" as opposed to "what I want to believe".

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)

But freedom loving rationalists and even religious people will band together to defeat the evil tyranny of Islam!! Even parts of Europe have started to fight back! I'm sure there are forces in Europe that will keep at least part of Europe European and won't let all of it become an Islamic continent!

There is no law of the universe that 'good' should triumph over 'evil'. What survives is what survives. The current model for Islamic expansion seems to have nothing to oppose it. They are willing to sacrifice for what they want, while the opposition is not.

Many of the so called 'rationalists' argue for European model of the welfare state guaranteeing benefits without any strings such as mandatory family planning, mandatory job training and immigration limits. They are basically funding the Islamic takeover(along with the Saudi oil money).

This Islamic model seems to be coming to America. I think it will replace Christianity here because most Christians don't sacrifice and only want a religion of convenience. One person willing to blow themselves up can terrorize millions to go along with their way. So sorry if I'm not so optimistic.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

But freedom loving rationalists and even religious people will band together to defeat the evil tyranny of Islam!! Even parts of Europe have started to fight back! I'm sure there are forces in Europe that will keep at least part of Europe European and won't let all of it become an Islamic continent!

There is no law of the universe that 'good' should triumph over 'evil'. What survives is what survives. The current model for Islamic expansion seems to have nothing to oppose it. They are willing to sacrifice for what they want, while the opposition is not.

Many of the so called 'rationalists' argue for European model of the welfare state guaranteeing benefits without any strings such as mandatory family planning, mandatory job training and immigration limits. They are basically funding the Islamic takeover(along with the Saudi oil money).

This Islamic model seems to be coming to America. I think it will replace Christianity here because most Christians don't sacrifice and only want a religion of convenience. One person willing to blow themselves up can terrorize millions to go along with their way. So sorry if I'm not so optimistic.

I'm sorry but that's downright delusional to think an "Islamic model" is coming to America. Even walking in many parts of Europe it still looks like good ol fashioned Europe since often times the Muslims are all in their ghettos together and you often don't see many of them in tonier areas.

Muslims comprise only about 1.5% of America and keep in mind many Muslims in America are totally secular and aren't covered by blankets. I've seen Muslims here and they love the care free hedonistic life which is the POLAR OPPOSTIE of life in Islamic society which takes away so much freedom and fun!

Many Muslims in America aren't really even religious since they've been assimilated into the secular American lifestyle!

I'm sorry but that's downright delusional to think an "Islamic model" is coming to America. Even walking in many parts of Europe it still looks like good ol fashioned Europe since often times the Muslims are all in their ghettos together and you often don't see many of them in tonier areas.

Muslims comprise only about 1.5% of America and keep in mind many Muslims in America are totally secular and aren't covered by blankets. I've seen Muslims here and they love the care free hedonistic life which is the POLAR OPPOSTIE of life in Islamic society which takes away so much freedom and fun!

Many Muslims in America aren't really even religious since they've been assimilated into the secular American lifestyle!

What is your explaination then of how Islam was able to take control of Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, Afganistan, etc... Why didn't these moderates oppose imposition of Sharia and extremism? Didn't they start out with 0% Muslim populations?

I agree with you that few actually want this. The problem is that a few people willing to sacrifice their lives are able to terrorize an entire to society into submission.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

I'm sorry but that's downright delusional to think an "Islamic model" is coming to America. Even walking in many parts of Europe it still looks like good ol fashioned Europe since often times the Muslims are all in their ghettos together and you often don't see many of them in tonier areas.

Muslims comprise only about 1.5% of America and keep in mind many Muslims in America are totally secular and aren't covered by blankets. I've seen Muslims here and they love the care free hedonistic life which is the POLAR OPPOSTIE of life in Islamic society which takes away so much freedom and fun!

Many Muslims in America aren't really even religious since they've been assimilated into the secular American lifestyle!

What is your explaination then of how Islam was able to take control of Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, Afganistan, etc... Why didn't these moderates oppose imposition of Sharia and extremism? Didn't they start out with 0% Muslim populations?

I agree with you that few actually want this. The problem is that a few people willing to sacrifice their lives are able to terrorize an entire to society into submission.

That's because the Middle East has greater historical ties to Islam than Europe. Islam was founded right there in Asia minor so it easily spread to regions close by but Germany, England, and Scandanavia aren't close by and America sure as hell isn't either!

It is true that Pakistan and Afghanistan were once Buddhist and Hindu but the conquering Islamic armies took advantage of a period in history of relative lawlessness. There is NO WAY IN HELL that an Islamic army would try to March in western Europe or America and impose Islam by force like they did in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They would get utterly and completely DESTROYED! You already have fanatical Muslims dying every week at the hands of our drones.

Thankfully those imperialistic Islamic armies are just a thing of the past!

It is true that Pakistan and Afghanistan were once Buddhist and Hindu but the conquering Islamic armies took advantage of a period in history of relative lawlessness. There is NO WAY IN HELL that an Islamic army would try to March in western Europe or America and impose Islam by force like they did in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They would get utterly and completely DESTROYED! You already have fanatical Muslims dying every week at the hands of our drones.

Thankfully those imperialistic Islamic armies are just a thing of the past!

I know that's why the strategy now is immigration and high birth rates. Terror attacks will be use to silence any opposition. What could possible stop it given the current political situation?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

It is true that Pakistan and Afghanistan were once Buddhist and Hindu but the conquering Islamic armies took advantage of a period in history of relative lawlessness. There is NO WAY IN HELL that an Islamic army would try to March in western Europe or America and impose Islam by force like they did in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They would get utterly and completely DESTROYED! You already have fanatical Muslims dying every week at the hands of our drones.

Thankfully those imperialistic Islamic armies are just a thing of the past!

I know that's why the strategy now is immigration and high birth rates. Terror attacks will be use to silence any opposition. What could possible stop it given the current political situation?

What part of the world are you talking about?? If you are talking about Europe not all European countries just allow muzzie to walk in en masse. Some countries are tightening the noose on letting muzzies in.

Terror attacks will only have to OPPOSITE effect. Terror attacks will turn sentiments against Islam! After 9/11 you didn't see a ton of people flock toward Islam did you?

9/11 was a blunder from the point of view of muslim world domination. The whole world is wide awake to it. Immigration strategies have been altered and everyone is on high alert. Even in the UK, where politeness goes too far, questions are being asked. And that's how it should be. Integration is like marriage. You have to rub to cultures up against each other until the sharp edges are smoothed off. With islam, complete intolerance for the immorality of extremism and the immorality of parts of islamic doctrine will lead to change. Eventually...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

9/11 was a blunder from the point of view of muslim world domination. The whole world is wide awake to it. Immigration strategies have been altered and everyone is on high alert. Even in the UK, where politeness goes too far, questions are being asked. And that's how it should be. Integration is like marriage. You have to rub to cultures up against each other until the sharp edges are smoothed off. With islam, complete intolerance for the immorality of extremism and the immorality of parts of islamic doctrine will lead to change. Eventually...

I'm not so sure, you're saying because most everyone doesn't want to live under militant Islam, it won't happen. But if history is any lesson, this is not how things work, it's always the people able to attain and use the most deadly force that end up making the rules. That is why there have been so many brutal dictatorships. Islam is all about sacrificing for the religion, so they get pleanty of money and people willing to die for the religion. Secularism and other religions don't have this.

It is even worse than in the past, before a handful of terrorists could only kill a handful of civilians. Today a handful of terrorist could kill millions and terrorize the entire population. People will put their survival above what they want.

I think it is inevitable that there will be a clash of civilization(WWIII) after WMDs are used my Islamic terrorists. After this conflict, it will be driven underground and completely banned or it will dominate the entire world.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

9/11 was a blunder from the point of view of muslim world domination. The whole world is wide awake to it. Immigration strategies have been altered and everyone is on high alert. Even in the UK, where politeness goes too far, questions are being asked. And that's how it should be. Integration is like marriage. You have to rub to cultures up against each other until the sharp edges are smoothed off. With islam, complete intolerance for the immorality of extremism and the immorality of parts of islamic doctrine will lead to change. Eventually...

I'm not so sure, you're saying because most everyone doesn't want to live under militant Islam, it won't happen. But if history is any lesson, this is not how things work, it's always the people able to attain and use the most deadly force that end up making the rules. That is why there have been so many brutal dictatorships. Islam is all about sacrificing for the religion, so they get pleanty of money and people willing to die for the religion. Secularism and other religions don't have this.

It is even worse than in the past, before a handful of terrorists could only kill a handful of civilians. Today a handful of terrorist could kill millions and terrorize the entire population. People will put their survival above what they want.

I think it is inevitable that there will be a clash of civilization(WWIII) after WMDs are used my Islamic terrorists. After this conflict, it will be driven underground and completely banned or it will dominate the entire world.

But you're forgetting a key aspect here. If you look at past history it's conquering armies and nation states that use deadly force that sometimes, not always, achieve conquest.

That's the great thing here since Islam has no major power on earth that can attack other countries. Doing it simply by immigration is much more ineffective way since they can block off immigration and impose restrictive laws like France has recently done. The vast majority of people are so turned off by Sharia law there is no way they'd allow it to happen. Even in Europe it's partial Sharia law that's allowed in some places. Some people make it sound like Sauid Arabia is in Europe or something!

I should rephrase that an Islamic country like Iran or Pakistan could attack a western nation but they'd be wiped off the map and defense experts have said so themselves. India would have a rude awakening for Pakistan is they ever tried anything either.

That's the great thing here since Islam has no major power on earth that can attack other countries.

Modern war is no longer about sending in an army. It's about terrorizing a population into submission. The USA demonstrated that with Shock and awe in Iraq. We can't win in Afghanistan because we are not allowed to terrorize the population while the Taliban can.

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

Doing it simply by immigration is much more ineffective way since they can block off immigration and impose restrictive laws like France has recently done.

But economic interests trump principles and often security. Look at the USA we officially ban most all immigration but then we allow H1B visas so corporations can get cheap engineers and then pretty much don't enforce the laws for low skilled workers so corporations can have cheap labor.

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

The vast majority of people are so turned off by Sharia law there is no way they'd allow it to happen.

But it happened already in the middle east. The extremists terrorized the population into submission. A lot of people are turned off by high taxes but if someone uses force you have no choice.

In the middle ages 10 Islamic radicals could kill maybe 100 people with swords before they would be killed themselves. Today, with ricin or dirty bombs they can kill thousands. So technology has enabled a few to terrorize a lot.

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

I should rephrase that an Islamic country like Iran or Pakistan could attack a western nation but they'd be wiped off the map and defense experts have said so themselves. India would have a rude awakening for Pakistan is they ever tried anything either.

But I don't think the official governments are going to attack each other. It's going to be small groups of radicals like the 9/11 hijackers, perhaps aided by some elements in governments. The only way to stop attacks is for the CIA to get spies into these groups.

If you don't think Americans could be forced to give up their liberties and way of life by terrorizing them, remember it already has happened. The southern slave owners gave up their liberty to own slaves and their way of life once they were terrorized and force into submission.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

it is not the fiercest, or the one most able to terrorize, nor is it the biggest army, or the one with the most bombs. the whole war, every war, depends on the strategies of the main minds in charge of each army. while every battle has been decided the moment it starts, no war is completely decided from the beginning, as either side can win depending on one thing; their strategy.

i have read of many battles, and all of the best ones, all of the most decisive ones, had a great mind at their head; zhuge liang and zhou yu at chi bi, macarthur at seoul, leonidas at thermopolae, stonewall jackson at chancellorsville, lee and jackson at fredericksburg.

it is in fact interesting to note that lee lost against general hancock at gettysburg, general hancock is a general which Lee held back at fredericksburg. why the different outcome? a change of minds at the head.

general burnside was the leader of the federal forces which fought against lee and jackson at fredericksburg. after fredericksburg, burnside was relieved of command of the army, a more capable leader was put in. on top of that, jackson died at the battle of Chancellorsville, before gettysburg.

so, what is the outcome?

the balance of total intelligence at the top of the army command tipped in favour of the feds over the rebs.

in every war, the outcome is the sum of all battles. in every battle, the outcome is the sum of all strategies.