In the spirit of examining everything in the game (down to the kitchen sink) it's time to discuss items.

In order to keep this concise, I've edited out my brief blurbs about items that I really don't have any issues with. Feel free to bring them up if you have something to add. I won't be discussing the venom dagger since poison is in flux. Subdungeon items will also be skimmed over here; subdungeons are another discussion in and of themselves.

Blacksmith Items

Sword - I've always disliked that it's basically balanced around a bloated gold cost to synergize with the transmutation seal. It really should stand up on its own merits... which are basically those of an oversized spoon.

Shield - same problem, but to a much lesser extent, than the sword.

Slayer Wand - how many people use this anymore? Ever since it got changed to cap out its XP bonus, I really haven't seen much purpose to it outside of Dragon Isles. Everywhere else it's just not worth lugging around a large item.

Perseverance Badge - This item is just plain better than the other blacksmith items. Its effect is awesome (for orcs it can exceed the power of the sword as early as level 1!) and it's a small item. It's not so powerful as to completely overshadow the others, but I probably prep it about twice as often as every other blacksmith item combined.

Really Big Sword - while functional, it's a real pain to lug around and its niche applicability means it's rarely a consideration. It really needs something on the side. At very minimum make player slow beat monster slow so it doesn't effectively disable the WEYTWUT glyph...

Basic Items

Spoon - 1 gold for 1 base attack is a superb deal, but the shop density is horrific. I realize it's much too late to revisit the issue of shop density, but it still irks me that something so inconsequential (even if it is exceedingly well priced) is in my shop pool, potentially keeping out other cool things.

Tower Shield - as with all resist items, I dislike that it's so mediocre for your standard 0-resist character but can be game-changing for someone already resist stacking. It'd be nice if there was some way to make it a bit more appealing to 0%-ers without pushing it overboard for stackers, but it's probably too late for that kind of thing.

Troll Heart - a bit too expensive and a bit too dependent on finding it at a lower level. Not a deal-breaker, but a bit niche for my tastes unless I'm a rogue.

Quest Items

Piercing Wand - a much more interesting item now that it can chip away resistances of any kind, but still a tad overspecialized. It would be nice if it had slightly better conversion value.

Rock Heart - you know, this item is great if you're using knockback attack or PISORF as part of a melee attack chain, but I just never seem to be able to find it when I'm doing that sort of thing. I think that's more an issue of the limited availability of wall-breaking in the game. At least it's got good conversion value.

Crystal Ball - both overpowered and underpowered at the same time. As an item you pick up in a shop, it's just too expensive to activate. Between its 15 GP cost at 5 GP cost per activation, it just gets ludicrously expensive and will suck up pretty much all your cash. If you prep it ahead of time and work it into a larger game plan, that gold cost is totally manageable and its true overwhelming power shines through. I really feel the gold cost needs to be toned back or removed and a different penalty instated.

Witchalok Pendant - a bit too expensive and low CP for its rather limited effect. Needs some help in that regard.

Battlemage Ring - a pretty powerful item, but suffers from a very steep cost and low CP value. Tweak one or the other and it'll be fine.

Hero's Helm - pretty good for low-level characters, but pretty damn expensive and is largely inconsequential for higher-level characters. The big problem is that +1 MP on its own isn't very useful; with only one exception (WEYTWUT) no glyph really benefits meaningfully from going from the 13 MP to the 14 MP baseline.

Platemail - getting around the "slow" effect is pretty tough to pull off. While I think it's gone in the right direction, it's gone from too powerful to too weak. It needs something to bring it up a bit. At very minimum a bit of extra CP and making it function with WEYTWUT would be nice.

Trisword - halflings and gnomes shall hate me forever, but this weapon really is too powerful. Pretty much all of the game's other "super preps" have been nerfed down to size, but this one remains and sticks out like a sore thumb. A simple fix may be just to cap the effect at +3 per level. That's 15 potions over the course of a dungeon; totally doable for a purist halfling/gnome or anyone who preps for it, while eliminating low-level power-attacking and the more obscenely broken trisword stacking (+40 on naga city, anyone?)

Balanced Dagger - much too niche; killing same-level enemies leaves you in a strategically challenging situation later in the game. Great for Vicious Gaan-Telet where most of the dungeon is carving your way through hordes of level 10 monsters, largely pointless everywhere else.

Mage Plate - overspecialized in its current state, and pretty much requires you to be playing human, gnome or assassin to get good value out of it. Very few classes can afford that kind of significant attack bonus penalty

Blue Bead - same problem as the spoon; poor shop density, but a no-brainer for its cost.

Vampiric Blade - absolutely wicked item. The double-effect on lower-level monsters means it can be used to harvest a lot of health. With all the recent vampire talk I've realized just how powerful lifesteal is in its current state, and this item seems to be really strong now.

Elite Items

Dwarven Gauntlets - These things have the same problem as the troll heart; you really need to find them ASAP to get the most out of them. As a result, they're primarily used as a preparation rather than an in-dungeon purchase. At that price point, the HP gain really needs to be retroactive. They'd be very well-balanced if that was the case.

Orb of Zot - much harder to leverage than Yendor. I rarely use it, but then again it's so rare that I rarely have the opportunity to use it, so that's not entirely a fair judgement. Anyone had success with this item?

Alchemist's Scroll - a bit on the expensive side with its gold activation cost, and also suffers the same problem as a lot of the "per level" items in that you need to find it early to really leverage it the most. What's more, the effect is front-loaded and really at its best at the lowest levels. This makes it rare as an in-dungeon purchase while still being incredibly potent as a preparation. It'd be nice if there was some way to make it more approachable without strengthening it for characters who prep and min/max around it.

Wicked Guitar - tricky to use, but wicked sick when it works. It really could use some better CP, but I can understand why it has the number it does.

PotionsStrength Potion - a little strong at low levels, a little weak at high levels. I've always thought it might be cool if this potion got curse cure so it had a more distinct role for high-level characters.

WHUPAZ - not nearly the "must-have" it used to be. Most scenarios now have multiple weaker bosses rather than a single strong one, and HP bloat has been toned down enormously. This is actually a really tame item now, and I only use it on Naga City, Slime Pits, and Dragon Isles.

Vicious Items

Avatar's Symbol - lackluster compared to the Dragonshield. The charge-up attack bonus just doesn't mesh with resistances. It'd be nice if it dropped the resists and swapped them for something else.

Dragon Shield - still a bit on the strong side, but that's primarily resist-stacking. I wish there was some way to reconcile its power for resist-stackers and everyone else, but I suspect it's much too late for that.

Naga Cauldron - weird item. I concur with the others that this would probably be neat to have in your shop pool, but not so much as a locker item.

Miscellaneous (lockerable) Items

Dragon Soul - basically dragonshield mini. Useless once you unlock the real thing, but kinda neat until then. There's some talk about revamping it as a potential shop item, which I approve of.

Sensation Stone - at its 150 value it'll never be locker worthy; it might be cool to try bringing it back up to some of its former values now that stacking orcs are long history, but I'd understand if you don't want to tempt transmutation scroll shenanigans.

Mass09 Ledger - interesting item, but just not good enough to be lockerable. Like most subdungeon items, it's cool to find but not really competitive with the real top-notch locker items.

This thread has now been offically approved by the local textbombing society, by order of chairman Lujo. I'll give it a long read after I'm done with reconciling with my wife who just returned from a long trip.

And after a quick look, I can see you missed some, but have no time right now to pad the list out. Plus, I got thoughts different than yours on some of them, while I agree wholeheartedly on some.

Darvin wrote:Slayer Wand - how many people use this anymore? Ever since it got changed to cap out its XP bonus, I really haven't seen much purpose to it outside of Dragon Isles. Everywhere else it's just not worth lugging around a large item.

When it shows up in a subdungeon it's fantastic. Basically a one-off Swift Hands for non-Assassins. If it showed up in shops for like 5-10 gold I would buy it pretty regularly.

Really Big Sword - while functional, it's a real pain to lug around and its niche applicability means it's rarely a consideration. It really needs something on the side. At very minimum make player slow beat monster slow so it doesn't effectively disable the WEYTWUT glyph...

Another item that would be awesome if you could buy it.

Spoon - 1 gold for 1 base attack is a superb deal, but the shop density is horrific. I realize it's much too late to revisit the issue of shop density, but it still irks me that something so inconsequential (even if it is exceedingly well priced) is in my shop pool, potentially keeping out other cool things.

Maybe increase its conversion value to 5 or 10, so that it has a secondary use? 1 CP is literally never useful; 5 or 10 can occasionally be all you need to reach the threshold.

I would like to see more shops like the Apothecary, with multiple items for sale. A Blacksmith shop, with some of the above items in stock, would be very nice.

Platemail - getting around the "slow" effect is pretty tough to pull off. While I think it's gone in the right direction, it's gone from too powerful to too weak. It needs something to bring it up a bit. At very minimum a bit of extra CP and making it function with WEYTWUT would be nice.

I've gotten a lot of use out of it - by waiting until level 8+ to buy it. Having it increase in potency a bit faster would be a significant improvement. (E.g., +3 damage reduction per level, but still cap at +20.)

Orb of Zot - much harder to leverage than Yendor. I rarely use it, but then again it's so rare that I rarely have the opportunity to use it, so that's not entirely a fair judgement. Anyone had success with this item?

I think I've bought this like, twice, in the entire time it's been available. And that was just out of curiosity. The rare situation where (1) it spawns, (2) I can afford it, and (3) I have enough blackspace to make use of it, is, well, rare. A significant price drop or a secondary effect seems to be warranted.

WHUPAZ - not nearly the "must-have" it used to be. Most scenarios now have multiple weaker bosses rather than a single strong one, and HP bloat has been toned down enormously. This is actually a really tame item now, and I only use it on Naga City, Slime Pits, and Dragon Isles.

The Avatar wrote:I wish they had either trinket or blacksmith stores as a shop prep. It would work like an apothocary (have 6 items, either small or blacksmith) and it would be in addition to shops.

This so very much. If it would include the goblin bombs, and there was a way to "prep" it right next to the entrance, it would be awesome. Or some variation thereof.

Now for items:

Blacksmith Sword I don't actually mind it being there just for the sake of simetry. But as far as prepping it goes, I can't remember the last time I did it, especially since the shield seems like a much better deal.

Slayer Wand I've actually been prepping it a lot, more than any other BS item, including the badge. Thing is, CB users in general, and wizards is particular, don't really give a fig about inventory space (or shops for the most part). They do, however, like being able to one-shot a random equal/higher level bugger to help DING! without wasting resources, and you can blow it to clear a choke point if you so desire. If it were a small item it'd probably be too good, but maybe not.

Perseverance Badge Is the third "extra attack booster" that you don't actually have to look for. I'm surprised how often I prep the slayer wand instead of it, really. It may look insignificant, but it messes up balancing on Monks, Gorgons, Warlords, Rogues... And everything that melees, really, unless it has been taken into account all the time, in which case NOT taking it messes up balance on Mo...

Really Big Sword - I most of the time I'm not even aware of it's existance.

Basic Items

Spoon - It's in my veto slot for the shop density reasons.

Tower Shield I left it in the pool, even though I vetoed both the +10 HP and the +2 Mana pendant. I'm not sure why, really.

Troll Heart I'm not sure, but I really like it - it makes Drac's Sanguine not have a penalty if carried around for 5 levels (that is, two hits of sanguine). It also converts for a nice chunk, and you get to keep the effect, making it infinitely better then the vetoed pendant. Just the way I see it.

Quest Items

Piercing Wand Has a really low cost, and has saved my hide so many times that I don't really mind all the times I've had no use for it. Might be ok with both a price and a CP increase.

Rock Heart The problem I'm having with it is that even when I'm using PISSORFF - I'm very rarely using it with enough walls, more often I'm slamming guys into each other. On the very rare occasion where I'm using walls and PISSORFF, it's decent. The health gain is too low, though (or I'm not reading it right). It's my default "pure CP" item, but Troll Heart is making it look bad.

Darvin Wrote:Crystal Ball - both overpowered and underpowered at the same time. As an item you pick up in a shop, it's just too expensive to activate. Between its 15 GP cost at 5 GP cost per activation, it just gets ludicrously expensive and will suck up pretty much all your cash. If you prep it ahead of time and work it into a larger game plan, that gold cost is totally manageable and its true overwhelming power shines through. I really feel the gold cost needs to be toned back or removed and a different penalty instated.

I say:Well, the thing is, it's not that bad even if found in a shop, but the reason I never buy it is because if I'm playing anyone who isn't FORCED to prep something else - I already have it. Otherwise I would buy it, and no it's not inefficent - it LOOKS inefficent. But there really are very few things you could better spend your gold on, and those can usually be acquired once you kill the first boss. Trust me, on the last playthrough I wouldn't even locker and prep it on the same grounds that you just wrote here. This time I just took a plunge, and I can't say sinking all my gold into it has ever hurt me... The only reason CB is a bad buy (if your hero's up for it) is that you could've spent that 15 gold on 3 CB activations allready if you just prepped it...

Witchalok Pendant It's not a bad effect, I've used it often, but the problem is it IS niche (affects fireball, but not PISSORFF), and the gold cost looks prohibitive. I don't see it talked about much, and always thought of it as an overlooked gem. It was originaly designed to interact with Binlor, but Binlor has changed since then, and it has not.

Battlemage Ring Agree that it looks really good, but never really justifies the price, CP and size. Size is the real reason I started preffering Flames to it - bloodmages who want options tend to cram their inventory full of glyphs.

Hero's Helm It's heading for my next veto slot. It has big, big issues with when you unlock it (I've talked abou this). HOWEVER - it has a saving grace - the mana point it provides technicaly means that you can stop looking for your optimal mana pool sooner and conserve exploration, while being a little above the curve damage and HP wise. Doesn't justify the gold cost at all, though.

Trisword Agree with Darvin. The game is playable and enjoyable without it, and I'm only prepping it when I'm too lazy to actually think my way through a Dungeon. The big problem it has isn't just the "no lvl cap", which is a problem, but it's complete dominance in it's niche. If you pick it up, and simply sink potions and gold into it (tactfully), what you buy isn't a 12 gold +3/pop sword, it's a single inventory slot for as many fine swords as you can cram into it. The first one costs you 18 gold (instead of 15), the second one means the 2 fine swords just cost you 12 gold each and they both take up one inventory slot, the third one means you just bought 3 fine swords for 10 each and so on and so forth. If it's base damage you're looking for - what could you possibly spend your gold on that's a better deal/you didn't perp? And with black market, translocation and the boss gold drops - money's no issue. Inventory space can be but that is where Trisword breaks the game in half.

Balanced Dagger It's actually more useable than Rock Heart, but never, ever a good investment except in Gaan'Telet. It's the only quest item I've vetoe'd.

Mage Plate It's actually rather better than Darvin thinks, and I've been buying it regularly. Good with CB, good with B2P, good with Mysterea, good with GG, good with Gnomes, and once you're done with the mana spike, you can convert it and start melleing. Doesn't even affect PISSORF so it's incredible for PISSORF wizards and bloodmages. If flames are a viable boon, and they are, then this is a viable item, and it is. *If I'm not wrong, it gives +4 mana at lvl 7, which with the 3 guaranteed boosters and 5 Mysterea piety means 3 fireballs per pool. And 6 PISSORFF. Not bad at all...

Elite Items

Dwarven Gauntlets It's the only item you might want to spend an inventory slot on if you have the tri-sword, and I translocate them here and there.

Orb of Zot Not really. I'm not sure it affect all monsters on in the game, but if it's only monsters on the same floor then poison of almost any variety beats it for efficency. I think it's only real purpose is to have a roguelike reference and polute the shops. Yendor is also a reference, but it's at least worth buying.

Alchemist's Scroll I think you're thinking in "optimal" terms too much. Picking it up and using it around 4 times gives more health then 10 absolutions, and all you need to spend are the prepped potions for easier leveling, and you can convert it later for res stacking inventory space. Combined with the Tinker and Trisword it's really silly. The problem I have with it is that it's an Elite item, and not a quest item, and I can't bring myself to locker it. If the Cauldron is an ideal candidate for a Slime Pits reward, I'd totaly make it a Cursed Oasis Quest reward.

Potions

Strength Potion - a little strong at low levels, a little weak at high levels. I've always thought it might be cool if this potion got curse cure so it had a more distinct role for high-level characters.

WHUPAZ I use it all the time, as a safeguard in case I run into an unfavourable second boss, especially on the penultimate dungeons, and in difficult PQI. You're otherwise right.

Vicious Items

Avatar's Symbol Simply needs to be something else.

Naga Cauldron Agree wholeheartedly that it'd make an awesome Slime Pits quest reward. It might need a rework as well, but it needs it's predictions fixed first so it can be properly tested. So far it seems to consistently boost Warlords and gnomes, who don't really need any boosts.

Miscellaneous (lockerable) Items

Sensation Stone I actually wouldn't mind seeing it in shops in its current incarnation.

Mass09 Ledger Obscenely overpowered item. It lets you cherry pick targets as if you've fully revealed and binlored down a map, except you get to keep the exploration space between the fights. The only difference is that you don't start out your dream leveling/popcorn bowling/whatever with all the powerups picked up, but the reason I took it out of my locker is put the fact it exists out of my mind and try to play the actual game.

This is just my thoughts on most of the items Darvin's mentioned. I'll add mine later, but:

Fireheart - is too niche, and very hard to fill up more than once during a boss fight. Works really well with healthmonster dwarves and B2P users, but I'm not sure other guys who'd benefit can spare an inventory slot (HALPMEH res stackers).

Troll Heart I'm not sure, but I really like it - it makes Drac's Sanguine not have a penalty if carried around for 5 levels (that is, two hits of sanguine). It also converts for a nice chunk, and you get to keep the effect, making it infinitely better then the vetoed pendant. Just the way I see it.

Thing with the pendant of health is that it's great for low-level characters on harder scenarios where you have trouble surviving one hit. Troll Heart doesn't come into effect until much higher levels. Pendant of Mana lets you hit the 15 mana threshold, which is pretty much its only redeeming feature. They're lackluster items but not really bad.

Orb of Zot Not really. I'm not sure it affect all monsters on in the game, but if it's only monsters on the same floor then poison of almost any variety beats it for efficency.

It's worse: only revealed monsters on the same floor. It only affects visible monsters, but needs blacksmith to capitalize on the effect... and there lies the catch 22 of the Orb of Zot.

There might be situations where you can actually get it to work, but the item is so rare in shops that I've never seen such a scenario come up.

Alchemist's Scroll I think you're thinking in "optimal" terms too much. Picking it up and using it around 4 times gives more health then 10 absolutions, and all you need to spend are the prepped potions for easier leveling

My issue is that these are entirely different cases if we compare someone who preps it (or finds it at level 1) and someone who finds it at level 5.

If we're talking about a 1st level character, we're talking about basically doubling your health every level. It's a massive and easy way to boost your durability. On the other hand, someone who finds it at level 5 is going to take several levels to build up its power, and it's never really going to go nuts.

What I'm saying here - and with quite a few items - is that there needs to be a reconciliation between their power as a shop item and as a preparation, because there's a pretty big disparity.

Combined with the Tinker and Trisword...

Tinker + Trisword + Alchemist Scroll is absolutely breathtaking, I agree. Wonder how much you need to scum to get that up and running sufficiently early?

Sensation Stone I actually wouldn't mind seeing it in shops in its current incarnation.

I concur, but I doubt we'll see it.

Mass09 Ledger Obscenely overpowered item. It lets you cherry pick targets as if you've fully revealed and binlored down a map, except you get to keep the exploration space between the fights. The only difference is that you don't start out your dream leveling/popcorn bowling/whatever with all the powerups picked up, but the reason I took it out of my locker is put the fact it exists out of my mind and try to play the actual game.

Interesting opinion. I found the loss of power from other preps pretty much offset the benefit, but maybe I just wasn't using it on the right dungeons.

Fireheart - is too niche, and very hard to fill up more than once during a boss fight. Works really well with healthmonster dwarves and B2P users, but I'm not sure other guys who'd benefit can spare an inventory slot (HALPMEH res stackers).

The issue I have is that any buff to it could push healthmonsters over the edge. Last thing we need is something else that can be layered on top of a Dracul-worshipping tank...

Tinker + Trisword + Alchemist Scroll is absolutely breathtaking, I agree. Wonder how much you need to scum to get that up and running sufficiently early?

Not that much, really, if you prep either and tick the appropriate item category prep for the other. Tinker has two extra shops, and if they apply the Quest or Elite preps, you'd probably hit it at some point. Doesn't even have to be too early. And you don't want the scroll for more than 4-5 uses, if you're loading up on the trisword.

Darvin wrote:

Mass09 Ledger Obscenely overpowered item. It lets you cherry pick targets as if you've fully revealed and binlored down a map, except you get to keep the exploration space between the fights. The only difference is that you don't start out your dream leveling/popcorn bowling/whatever with all the powerups picked up, but the reason I took it out of my locker is put the fact it exists out of my mind and try to play the actual game.

Interesting opinion. I found the loss of power from other preps pretty much offset the benefit, but maybe I just wasn't using it on the right dungeons.

I don't know, but I steamrolled every time I had it on me. If you remember, the devs actually changed dungeon generation algorythims when they were shocked that we developed a habit of exploring everything and picking optimal leveling paths. With a 1/4 to 1/3 of the map explored this thing sort of let me do the old "explore everything" gig without actually exploring - and with the right potion loadout you can really capitalize on that. I can see the "but no trisword" gripe, but as I've said, the game is perfectly playable without the tri-sword...

Darvin wrote:

Fireheart - is too niche, and very hard to fill up more than once during a boss fight. Works really well with healthmonster dwarves and B2P users, but I'm not sure other guys who'd benefit can spare an inventory slot (HALPMEH res stackers).

The issue I have is that any buff to it could push healthmonsters over the edge. Last thing we need is something else that can be layered on top of a Dracul-worshipping tank...

Well, GG Healthmonster pretty much destroyed anything I set him up against as-is and some of it without the Fire Heart. All of it parched, mind you. He'll never be truly good in endurance runs, but in every other circumstance he's too good as is. So I can't really veto the fire heart, and I can't justify buying it / carrying it around on anything else.

RBS + Platemail, if player slow beats monster slow they'd be acceptable, as is Slow is just too serious a penalty.Slayer Wand is good in my book. Balanced Dagger is a cool item to have in there, I occasionally manage to get use out of it. Trisword is probably a bit too powerful overall as a prep - it is the ultimate lazy prep item. Crystal Ball I haven't used recently, I imagine it's still a bit of a monster. Fireheart doesn't really need a change as is... it's much more management heavy than other specialist prep options, and while it's not a first-pick item for non-preppers I kind of think it's an OK item for a gradual advantage if you don't have a specific synergy ready - useful for spiking poisoners and odd things like that.

(The GG Healthmonster's a very decent generalist - sort of think as it stands more or less any good prepped combo will flatten a hard or lower level - think he's a bit less set-and-forget than the really high-power prep combos we've got at the moment (Orc Rogues and Bloodmage Crystal-ballers stand out) but on the other hand the virtue of focussing on health and %-based spiking is that he's not really weak to status effects...)

And you don't want the scroll for more than 4-5 uses, if you're loading up on the trisword.

No, but its true power will only be if you get those uses as early as possible.

So I can't really veto the fire heart, and I can't justify buying it / carrying it around on anything else.

Hmmm... what if it provided 1 HP per level per charge? This would mean that for characters with less than 200 HP it would be better than its current incarnation, while for those with more it'd be worse. Overheal is another option.

Another thing on the Trisword: since I almost always open with a strength potion on serious dungeon run, all I need to do is suck back one more potion and it's basically just as good as a fine sword prep. I don't even need to use it as a trisword to have a useful and meaningful locker item...