Let me ask this....when was the last time you heard of a group of militant Christians over running a mosque, destroying the books, symbols and whatever they can get their hands on that lie within? That has happened in reverse, with Islamic people destroying Christian churches or property in recent years.

Talk about the ancient past all you want. When it comes down to it, we are talking about recent history....so let's try to stay on topic with what's been happening in OUR lifetimes.

It is the Muslims who are threatening violence because of recent events, not Christians. It is the Muslims who DEMAND that they get their way. It is Muslims who are trying to sell that theirs is a religion of peace, when the actions of their leaders across the globe speak otherwise. I don't recall the Pope or the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Church calling for a holy war because they didn't get to build a church where they wanted, or because there were people burning Bibles in Africa.

This isn't a bunch of leaderless radicals we are talking about. They are getting their marching orders from their leaders, their imams. It is those representatives of Islam making the threats, and who have called for executions of people because of stupid stuff like cartoons and the naming of stuffed animals. Trying to compare their actions to modern day Christianity and calling them equal is a foolish task that you cannot win.

Christians follow Christ, not Abraham or Moses. Christ was not a conqueror. He was a carpenter. Christ had followers that He could have set upon the synagogues and the Roman outposts. He chose to be peaceful, He spoke with God in Gethsemane and accepted what He was asked to do. Mohammed did not make the same choices, and the actions of his followers come from his writings.

Remember also that the New Testament of the Bible is a collection of stories ABOUT Jesus Christ, not the writings of Christ Himself. And in all those books, it speaks of Him as being peaceful, not warlike.

I agree with you 100% M2, the only issue that I have is calling someone "evil" for attempting to do "now" what the Christian faith did "then" to "win the war of religion."

Pick your inquisition and it was likely worse than anything you'll see out of current terrorists... I'm not saying that it is "right" or they're justified or anything like that. I'm only pointing out that they're using methods that have been used in the past (force) to reach their goals, and they're doing it for the same reason - the advancement of their religion or God.

Last edited by wjb21ndtown on September 15th, 2010, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

September 15th, 2010, 2:00 pm

Nurosa

Pop Warner Rookie

Joined: October 15th, 2005, 1:56 pmPosts: 98

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Again, most of the Muslims causing issues like those are Wahabbi's. Supporters of a "strict" interpretation of the Qur'an. Not most muslims. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. You cannot judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few crazy people.

_________________“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”-Stephen Colbert-

September 15th, 2010, 2:00 pm

steensn

RIP Killer

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pmPosts: 13429

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Nurosa wrote:

Again, most of the Muslims causing issues like those are Wahabbi's. Supporters of a "strict" interpretation of the Qur'an. Not most muslims. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. You cannot judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few crazy people.

But you can judge the religion by the crazy founder who did everything the Wahabbi's did and are doing now based on his teachings.

Yes, we cannot condemn the peaceful "Muslims" because of the ones that are violent... but we have to recognize that original intent on what they claim to follow has warlike.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I agree with you 100% M2, the only issue that I have is calling someone "evil" for attempting to do "now" what the Christian faith did "then" to "win the war of religion."

Pick your inquisition and it was likely worse than anything you'll see out of current terrorists... I'm not saying that it is "right" or they're justified or anything like that. I'm only pointing out that they're using methods that have been used in the past (force) to reach their goals, and they're doing it for the same reason - the advancement of their religion or God.

Well, then let me say this....the Crusades, the Inquisitions...any attempt by medieval or age old Christians to forcibly convert others was EVIL, EVIL, EVIL.

I don't think anyone on here could say any differently. Throwing an old Jewish man into a torture device to accept Christ goes against EVERYTHING He taught and stood for. It goes against everything He died for.

I would like to think not just our country, but the entire planet, has become more civilized, understanding, accepting of other peoples beliefs and cultures since then. I will harken back to what I stated in one of my other posts, that Muslimss seem to be trying to use the pacifistic nature of modern day Christians to forcibly (either by direct or implied violence) bend our will to accept whatever it is they want. In other parts of the world, they breed like rabbits, they recruit the wayward (prisons have one of the fastest growing populations of Muslim converts) and once they feel they have the upper hand, suddenly there's an attempt at upheaval. I can see them setting up this country for exactly the same thing. It is up to us non-Muslims to make it stop. You came here, we didn't go there. Accept our culture, accept our beliefs, accept our flag, accept our language, accept our Constitution and abide by our laws. Don't like it? Get back on your plane, or on the boat, or in the truck, or dive back in the river, or climb the mountain, cross the desert, sprout wings and fly....whatever....just get the f#&* out and don't come back.

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me...but doesn't it seem like most Muslim majority countries are in a constant state of war, either within or with a neighboring country. And we already know that there's a constant state of war declared with anything American.

What makes me laugh is that once it was discovered there was oil there and just how profitable it could be for them, those countries were BEGGING us infidels to come there, build up their infrastructure, protect them, sell them weapons, whatever. As soon as we stop, or decide that we deserve some of that piece of the pie, we fall back into being "outsiders" bent on destroying their beliefs. Very similar to the Saudi's who BEGGED us to go there when Saddam was threatening them with SCUD missiles, and then told our troops "Hey, we'll let you spill your blood here to protect us, but we'll kill you if we find out you snuck a Playboy magazine over here." It's not that I don't understand that they have their way of life, but don't invite us over there to save your azzes and then tell us you're not welcome because of a magazine. It would be akin to calling the police because of a burglar breaking into the house, and then saying to them you can't come in the house with muddy shoes.

So, in summary...yes, what was done then is/was evil, and so is what the Muslim leadership is threatening now.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

September 15th, 2010, 6:54 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Any attempt by man to force more men or women to do anything in the name of religion is evil.

To my point earlier, or maybe it was in another thread: When Jesus came and showed the way, which was the original term for Christianity, He did it by example. He loved, he healed, he taught, he cared one person at a time. Do you realize that through 12 men He taught the whole world to know about Him?12 men!

Men have perverted religion. I think the best movie line I've ever seen was taken from the moive Kingdom of Heaven, where the cleric said, "I put no stock in religion, for I've seen men commit atrocities in the name of religion. What God want's is a religion of here (pointing to his head) and here, (pointing to his heart.) A kingdom of Conscience, a kingdom of Heaven."

It is mankind who has taken the instructions of Jesus and perverted them to their liking. The Catholic church removed the Scriptures from common man, and took on the role of interpreter. This became a do as I say, not as I do.It's my understanding that the whole Purgatory lie was a fund raiser for the monetarily depleted Catholic church. You pay for the sins of your dearly departed, therefore paying their way into heaven. Really? Show me that in scripture!

As I said, the Old Testament was a time of the law, showing how man could not meet the requirements, and was responsible for bearing the penalty for his actions. The nations who were off shoots of the Jewish culture, edom and ammon (I think these were the two nations) were created by an insetuous relationship between father and daughters, perpetrated by the daughters. Or how about Ishmael the father of Muslim or Islam born through an adulterous union. The promise made to Abraham was still true but without favor, Ismael was the father of many nations, just not the favored nations. The Bible is quite graphic about our sin, and how disgusting it truly is.

Even today, we have all kinds of perversions that are vying for normalcy, and yet they are wrong. It's un-natural for many of the things that are happening to happen, but because of our own lusts we pursue them.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, which man was unable to do, and with His sacrifice, He stood in our stead and allowed us to live under a time of grace. What is so interesting is that in order for ANYONE to reach Heaven, all they have to do is BELIEVE, and Accept Jesus with all of their HEART, that's it. No explosives, no lists of things to do, no pre-requisites, just come as you are.

As I said earlier: The true Christianity of the New Testament is one of Grace, Mercy, Love, and Fellowship. When the Body of Christ today realizes that it's not in our programs or music, or buildings, but through our RELATIONSHIPS with those who don't know Jesus, then we will be investing in them. Establishing friendships, caring for your "unsaved" friends and family, loving them where they are at, and ministering to them in their times of need. Do that enough, with absolute love and sincerity, and watch how Christianity changes the world.

So please be careful when you look back on the Old Testament and realize the people spoken of were not characters in a story, but real humans who led real lives, and sinned as much as you or I do. The difference is theirs are recorded for all to see, ours are probably secret to those around us. But the Lord still knows!

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

The Seattle cartoonist whose artwork sparked the controversial "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day!" has gone into hiding at the advice of the FBI after being targeted by a radical Muslim cleric, according to the newspaper that published her comics.

Molly Norris has moved and changed her name, the Seattle Weekly said Wednesday, after U.S.-born Yemeni cleric Anwar al-Awlaki placed her on an execution hit list. Awlaki -- who has been linked to the botched Times Square bombing and cited as inspiration for the Fort Hood massacre and a plot by two New Jersey men to kill U.S. soldiers -- reportedly called Norris a "prime target" for assassination and that her "proper abode is hellfire."

"You may have noticed that Molly Norris' comic is not in the paper this week," Seattle Weekly Editor in Chief Mark Fefer wrote Wednesday. "That's because there is no more Molly."

"The gifted artist is alive and well, thankfully. But on the insistence of top security specialists at the FBI, she is, as they put it, 'going ghost': moving, changing her name, and essentially wiping away her identity. She is, in effect, being put into a witness-protection program -- except, as she notes, without the government picking up the tab," Fefer wrote.

Norris ignited a firestorm in April after drawing a satirical cartoon to protest the decision by cable television channel Comedy Central to cancel an episode of "South Park" over its depiction of the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit.

Soon after, a fan page popped up on Facebook, but Norris wrote on her since-shuttered website that she had nothing to do with it.

"I did NOT 'declare' May 20 to be 'Everybody Draw Muhammad Day,'" she said, adding that her idea was satire that was "taken seriously, hijacked and made viral."

"I apologize to people of Muslim faith and ask that this 'day' be called off," she said.

The 27-year-old Facebook page creator -- a Canadian woman who asked not to be identified due to fears of reprisal -- told FoxNews.com in July that she was visited at her home by Royal Canadian Mounted Police officials who advised her to remove her page and not to talk to reporters.

"I'm scared," she said. "I'm scared that somebody might kill me."

Islam strictly prohibits the depiction of any prophet as blasphemous and the "Draw Muhammad" page led to Facebook being temporarily blocked in Pakistan and sparked angry street protests.

In July, English-language Al Qaeda magazine "Inspire" attributed an article to Awlaki, saying Norris "should be taken as a prime target of assassination."

"The large number of participants makes it easier for us because there are more targets to choose from in addition to the difficulty of the government offering all of them special protection," wrote Awlaki. "But even then our campaign should not be limited to only those who are active participants."

He warned that "assassinations, bombings and acts of arson" are all legitimate forms of revenge against the creators of blasphemous depictions of Muhammad.

"Now, with the defamation of Muhammad reaching the shores of America, I wonder whether the patriotic American Muslim will still have the audacity to claim that he enjoys the right to be a Muslim in America?" Awlaki wrote. "Does he understand that this right includes his duty to fight against those who blaspheme his Prophet?"

Awlaki invited Muslims worldwide to "stand up in defense" of Muhammad and for their efforts to "manifest in all appropriate" means.

My problem with this is that Molly Norris isn't a Muslim, so she doesn't have to adhere to their religious beliefs. If drawing Muhammad is against Islamic principles, then Muslims shouldn't draw him, but that shouldn't apply to anyone who doesn't practice that particular religion. This is kinda like saying that since Catholics refuse to eat meat on Fridays during lent, then nobody should. Where will this kind of nonsense end? If we cave in now, sooner or later, Muslims will demand that nobody can eat pork since it's against their religion or something.

_________________

September 17th, 2010, 6:08 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

slybri19 wrote:

My problem with this is that Molly Norris isn't a Muslim, so she doesn't have to adhere to their religious beliefs. If drawing Muhammad is against Islamic principles, then Muslims shouldn't draw him, but that shouldn't apply to anyone who doesn't practice that particular religion. This is kinda like saying that since Catholics refuse to eat meat on Fridays during lent, then nobody should. Where will this kind of nonsense end? If we cave in now, sooner or later, Muslims will demand that nobody can eat pork since it's against their religion or something.

Exactly what I was going to say.

So, to any Muslims who are reading this....here's MY challenge. I'm going to draw a picture of Mohammed on a piece of toilet paper and wipe my badonkadonk with it.....I'm not Muslim, so I don't have to adhere to your religion.

Don't like it???? COME GET SOME F****RS!!

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

September 17th, 2010, 9:57 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Uncle Ted chimes in on this....and as usual, makes all the sense in the world.

Quote:

Ted NugentMuslim Hate Crimesby Ted Nugent09/19/2010

I don't support burning the Koran anymore than I support someone holding a blow torch to a Michael Moore fraudumentary film. If you don't want to read the Koran or watch Moore's fraudumentaries, then don't.

This beautiful thing we call the First Amendment is the essence of life. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion is something much of the Muslim world knows little about or respects, which is similar to their abject lack of basic understanding of tolerance, love and peace.

Facts are facts. Muslims in the Middle East have zero respect for other religions. In the Saudi Arabia city of Mecca, all other religions beside Islam are banned. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are squelched and outlawed in the name of Islam. It appears many in the Muslim world are stuck in year 4.

Christian churches are routinely burned, bombed and destroyed in the Middle East. Christians and people of other faiths are beaten and killed by Muslims with no fear of prosecution from Muslim-controlled courts. Ah yes, Islam—that religion of peace.

While our legal system is far from perfect, it is vastly superior to the Muslim religious court system that ignores justice. I assume that makes Allah giddy with joy. Order up more virgins.

America is better than this. We believe diversity of thought and expression makes us stronger and that while religion is important to many Americans, we keep our religious beliefs out of the court room. Lady Justice is both blind and religion-neutral, as it should be.

We rejoice in the freedom that we can speak out against those with whom we disagree. Some people will even go so far as to burn a book or our flag. People have that right in America.

The pastor in Florida created an international firestorm by threatening to burn the Koran on the anniversary of 9/11. His threat to burn the Koran garnered the attention of our President, secretary of state and others. President Obama said if the pastor burned the Koran that it would cause "profound" damage.

While our politicians were doing their best to convince the pastor to not torch the Koran, Muslims were actually burning our flag, burning effigies of the pastor and shouting, as usual, "Death to America." Such bridge builders.

Obviously, our politicians don't want to upset the religious sensitivities of Muslims, many of whom viciously hate America. Our political establishment seems to have forgotten the cheering in the streets in the Middle East and Dearborn, Mich., immediately following 9/11. Ordinary Americans haven't forgotten these soulless insensitivities. We have seared that into our memories.

The real insult is that President Obama and others spent more time and energy on the Florida pastor than they have actually condemning Muslims for their numerous condemnable and criminal acts against Christians and people of other faiths living in the Middle East.

This religious-inspired Neanderthal behavior is much more disgusting and condemnable than the pastor who wants to burn the Koran or the Christian creeps who show up at the funerals of military heroes with signs that say "God Hates Fags."

Muslim hate crimes are committed against people for simply practicing their religion of choice. Yet little energy is spent by our leaders to vociferously condemn these barbaric, Holocaust-like atrocities which Muslims justify as their religious duty. Again, welcome to year 4.

Condemning a pastor who threatened to burn a book, while virtually ignoring despicable and violent crimes against fellow human beings is not leadership. It is politically correct, brain-dead and, soulless anti-leadership—pretty much describes the current U.S. government, wouldn't you say?

The cowardly denial of political correctness has never been nor ever will be a tenant of strong leadership. In fact, political correctness is a spineless character flaw that emboldens the enemies of freedom, tolerance and peace.

It would be refreshing to hear someone—anyone—in this administration call a spade a spade and say that Muslims are the perpetrators of hate and violence and that their intolerance and brutal behavior is much more harmful to the world than a guy who threatened to burn the Koran.

That would take guts. That would take leadership, and the lack of leadership is what is really causing "profound" damage around the world.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

Probably not, under American law. But does he bear moral responsibility for the deaths today of at least a dozen people in Afghanistan, after mobs enraged by his March 20 burning of the Koran stormed a United Nations building and killed men and women inside?

That’s an entirely different question.

Jones is the wretched “pastor” who tried to hold an “International Burn a Koran Day” at the height of the Ground Zero controversy in New York last summer. He was finally persuaded not to do so after high officials including Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, personally asked him not to, citing the firestorm he predicted would erupt.Even though Jones didn’t follow through that time, there were furious demonstrations then across Afghanistan, and at least five people died.

Twelve days ago, Jones and his tiny congregation at the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., held a little-noticed mock trial and “execution” of the Koran. An assistant to Jones confirmed to reporters today that the group had burned a Koran and released a statement offering no regrets. Jones called the attack “very tragic” and said “the time has come to hold Islam accountable,” The New York Times reported.

Reports said that thousands of Afghans, emerging from Friday prayers in Mazar-i-Sharif, marched to the United Nations complex, where they overwhelmed guards and stormed through the compound. Early reports were confused, but it appears at least seven foreign workers were killed, including a woman. Their nationalities were not immediately known. There were also reports from local hospitals that five Afghans died.

The Times also reported that a prominent Afghan cleric who heads the Ulema Council, an important religious body where the Koran burning was recently discussed, called on American authorities to try Jones as a war criminal. He said that if that did not happen, violence and protests were likely to continue.

President Obama and United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemned the brutal mob attack. And, ultimately, responsibility for this atrocity obviously rests mainly with the murderers who committed it and those who encouraged them to act in response to Jones’ provocation. But as barbaric as the crowds were, it’s hard to avoid assigning a great deal of the blame to Jones, even though his despicable actions are protected under the First Amendment.

And he’s not the only one. In the aftermath of Petraeus’ remarks last year, as the ThinkProgress blog pointed out today, many well-known Islamophobes criticized the general. Robert Spencer called his comments a “recipe for surrender,” while his partner in the Stop Islamization of America hate group, Pam Geller, wrote, “If we stop doing things they dislike, where will we draw the line?”

The religion of peace strikes again, but the libtards attempt to blame the pastor who incited the violence. He didn't kill anybody. He just burned a book. Big deal. But to the religion of peace, that's cause to murder people. Go figure.

To further demonstrate how barbaric these people are, a 14-year-old Bangladeshi Muslim girl was recently raped. She was accused of adultry because of it and sentenced to 99 lashes. Due to the severity of this punishment, she died. How is this peaceful?

What boggles my mind is how can liberals claim to be for women, gays, and muslims at the same time. The Muslims don't respect women in the least and stone gays to death. This is not consistent with women or gay rights? Where is the outrage from the lamestream media or the left, but I repeat myself here?

IMO, if the Muslims want to be accepted in this country, they MUST condem the actions of the radicals. If they don't do so, they're no better than the few that are committing the atrocities. But since most of them in the Middle East seem to support Sharia Law, I don't expect that to happen.

_________________

April 2nd, 2011, 1:39 am

njroar

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 2841

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

The libs and muslims are on the opposite sides of so many issues, but the one glaring similarity is their opposition to Israel. When you want to remove something bad enough, you're willing to compromise everything else.

April 3rd, 2011, 10:53 am

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1232

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

njroar wrote:

The libs and muslims are on the opposite sides of so many issues, but the one glaring similarity is their opposition to Israel. When you want to remove something bad enough, you're willing to compromise everything else.

I believe the aphorism is, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

April 3rd, 2011, 2:18 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2862

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

I don't understand why neo-cons are such fervent supporters of Israel. Its a non-Christian, theocratic, socialist state. Shouldn't you hate it?

April 3rd, 2011, 3:52 pm

steensn

RIP Killer

Joined: June 26th, 2006, 1:03 pmPosts: 13429

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Well, it is kinda our responsibility as we created the state. It also is one of only a handful of countries in that area friendly with us. Then there is the irony that it came into being again 2000+ years after being dissolved with a prophecy that it would be put back together and be the center of a lot of strife and issues. Must be more coincidence...

The funny thing is, and if my information is correct, the Q'auran didn't even exist as a (complete) book until about 100 years ago, maybe a little more. It was an oral tradition handed down and repeated, but I think it was written on several different scrolls too. But there were SO many variations, it makes you wonder if the Quaran is absolutely true to the original writings.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

April 3rd, 2011, 7:17 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2862

Re: Qur'an burning plan still on: pastor

Quote:

The funny thing is, and if my information is correct, the Q'auran didn't even exist as a (complete) book until about 100 years ago, maybe a little more. It was an oral tradition handed down and repeated, but I think it was written on several different scrolls too. But there were SO many variations, it makes you wonder if the Quaran is absolutely true to the original writings.

Well the bible was a hand-picked compilation of over 100 books made 300+ years after the death of Jesus so...