Delvings is looking really interesting! This is the kind of exploration idea I had in mind. Note that if we made the source of the MPs the sites themselves (1 misc each), we wouldn't need the clause for FWs getting full points.

I really like the idea of IU giving Black Rider mode automatically. This is partly because I prefer the RWs to be using modes, from a thematic point of view (Dwar was an exception but we can pretend he’s turned into a wolf), but also because in the picture it looks like Indur is riding off on a black horse to some scary places anyway. So yes, let’s do that.

I confess I also liked the old idea of “switching modes” to gain other abilities, but I can see how this creates too much deck strain and also uses up card text to indicate the allowance of such modes anywhere.

If we don’t mind him racing through the deeps, then no need to make this cannot be duplicated.

I don’t really like the healing clause, though. Is it really that necessary? Can’t you just put a Foul-smelling paste in your deck, and play it at any site? With the fast movement allowed by IU, he can also pop up at darkhavens to heal anyway.

Here’s the new version:

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company is in Black Rider mode and may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls), and he can play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. While at Under-deeps sites or surface sites thereof, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters and may attack or be attacked by a minion company containing The Balrog. [One character in Indûr’s company may heal at any Under-deeps site during the untap phase.] You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

One thing that does is it also brings with it some very strong possibilities for above-ground play. Combine him with a few RW followers, and they'll never be discarded upon returning to a darkhaven. Not bad!

Regarding the healing clause, I'm ok with scrapping that. Maybe as a replacement, we could add the rule from the Balrog set regarding character play:

"Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any non-Dark-hold Under-deeps site" instead." Although perhaps the non-Dark-hold bit isn't necessary for non-Hog minion company.

That would help stop the surface site squat decks and open up Indur being able to play a lot of the "never seen" non-unique orcs and trolls like Troll Louts, Old Troll, Orc Tracker, etc. Quite cool really, and he'll need the characters, particularly if he's squaring up to a Balrog host! Otherwise, it'll have to be the usual 3 x WHCtK.

So, e.g. :

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company is in Black Rider mode and may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls), and he can play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. While at Under-deeps sites or surface sites thereof, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters and may attack or be attacked by a Balrog minion company. Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any Under-deeps site" instead. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

I changed it from "...attacked by a minion company containing The Balrog" to "...attacked by a Balrog minion company". That way, regular Balrog companies in the Under-deeps can get involved even if the Hog isn't part of them. Might encourage more active Hog to protect his companies.

some playtesting will prove how strong this already is - he's already won 1 tourney - but adding more abilities like the balrog character play in underdeeps is bridge too far, in my humble estimation. It's a flight foreward. If you do want to promote him moving around, better give him something to do.

We really want Idur to move above ground from the turn he's brought into play, whitout any ado? It'll make him more popular also for above ground action, so the competition for him as underdeeps rw will be bigger. Is a reference to mode really necessary? 'may move with underdeeps movement' should be enough to let the guy descend from Dol Guldur into the deeps and visit any underdeeps site and surface thereof, I suppose.

"Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any non-Dark-hold Under-deeps site" instead." Although perhaps the non-Dark-hold bit isn't necessary for non-Hog minion company.

i like this, if he is going to be at under deeps with non RW characters he needs some kind if way to play characters, though if everyone else thinks that this is too strong we will have to stick to the typical WHCtK x3

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:some playtesting will prove how strong this already is - he's already won 1 tourney .

well, actually TNaA won me the tourney, i played indur just once and he showed up in the last 15 cards

If you do want to promote him moving around, better give him something to do.

Man your words are so so wise! you couldn't say that better! i so agree with you. He NEEDS some stuff to do there other than the typical fire tech/ cave troll/ hero items. that balrog as ally clause is a good start

We really want Idur to move above ground from the turn he's brought into play, whitout any ado? It'll make him more popular also for above ground action, so the competition for him as underdeeps rw will be bigger. Is a reference to mode really necessary? 'may move with underdeeps movement' should be enough to let the guy descend from Dol Guldur into the deeps and visit any underdeeps site and surface thereof, I suppose.

we don't want above ground action for him, at least i don't... I agree that there's no need for the Mode clause, though i admit it has thematic

It is, but that's just inherent in the Balrog ally. I can't remember reading that in the rules, but I suppose that, since you have to 'declare yourself Balrog player' before the start of the game, opponent may take the Balrog ally from deck and replace it, analogous to the fw rule? Otherwise you can attack your opponent with the ally in company as long as the hogg hasn't entered...

It is, but that's just inherent in the Balrog ally. I can't remember reading that in the rules, but I suppose that, since you have to 'declare yourself Balrog player' before the start of the game, opponent may take the Balrog ally from deck and replace it, analogous to the fw rule? Otherwise you can attack your opponent with the ally in company as long as the hogg hasn't entered...

Yikes, Thorsten hasn't played against a Balrog player in a while, I see!

Balrog player declares himself at start. Unless you are also a Balrog player, all manifestations of Balrogs in your deck cannot be played, but may be remove from the game at any time after being drawn for an "instant sideboard" ability.

I didn't mean to allow him surface movement. Here's what should be the final version, then:

Quote:
If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company is in Black Rider mode, cannot use starter movement, and may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls). He can play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. While at Under-deeps sites or surface sites thereof, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters and may attack or be attacked by a Balrog minion company. Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any Under-deeps site" instead. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

It's actually an important clause to prohibit starter movement and/or give him black rider mode because if he didn't have automatic BR mode and no starter prohibition, you could use this card (along with a black horse from TRT) to roam the surface with a company rather than going down.

I just realized something else... if Indur can have characters now, why do we need to allow him to play The Balrog? Any character in his company (like the 8 or 9 minders he's bound to have) can just tap to play him! We still have theme: Indur is seeking out the Balrog as an ally. He's just not playing him directly.

Balrog player declares himself at start. Unless you are also a Balrog player, all manifestations of Balrogs in your deck cannot be played, but may be remove from the game at any time after being drawn for an "instant sideboard" ability.

well that's more or less what I said, isn't it? but true, can't remember last time I saw somebody play the ally version. You know, I once played a minion underdeeps deck with the guy in it at a tourney, quite succesfully, but that was back in the 20th century I remember everybody I played, and I mean everybody, had to read Gnawed by the Nameless (twice, three times...).

If he uses TRT/horse, he's earned to move above, hasn't he? You want to confine him to the deeps? Even though both types of movement are hard to combine, that's harsh. He still can't be with the army (except at surface site).
I don't see why Black Rider is necessary, if we just state: 'may use underdeeps movement', he can move enough, and not above, so nobody gets hurt. Is that just because you like the the horse in the art? or because you don't like to deviate from the mode principle too much?

I also was thinking Balrog on Indur is very good since that's one hell of a powerful ally and he doesn't have to roll. But, keeping with a future "Indur desperately seeking spawn theme", maybe we should allow him non the less. Also, I want to play Stay her Appetite on the Balrog and have Indur fight him

I should learn to read these posts most closely, rather than "looking more closely later." I forgot that the way we worded it, he can only have characters if using U-deeps movement.

But I shall redeem myself by ALSO realizing that the way it's worded now, Indur can only have characters in his company if he's staying still at a site! So here's another version, keeping Balrog playability if we all still like that idea (this should be purely for fun, since balance-wise i don't think it's bad that on a roll of 12 any 9-minder gets dragged down to Hell). I also eliminated Black Rider mode, but note that we could still keep it easily by merely giving him this mode only while in the Udeeps.

Quote:

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls), and he can play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. While at or moving to Under-deeps sites or their surface sites, Indûr’s company may contain non-Ringwraith characters and may attack or be attacked by a Balrog minion company. Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any Under-deeps site" instead. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

If we wanted to keep Black Rider mode in the U-deeps, it would read: "While at or moving to Under-deeps sites or their surface sites, Indûr’s company is in Black Rider mode, may contain non-Ringwraith characters, and may attack or be attacked by a Balrog minion company."

'" move to underdeeps site or surface site in comp with others", that means he can hop with croonies from Gundabad to Goblin Gate to Moria above ground...

how about: while using underdeeps movement or at underdeeps (surface)site he may be in comp with others.

Well, mentioning Black Rider only serves the function to make it clear he is not in one of the other modes, right? So he then can't be in Heralded or Fell Rider. We would like to keep Heralded option open? like Jambo has explained Fell Rider is of no use to him, still it creates a situation of contradiction between IU and FR.

But now you seem to like the non unique orc playing, which I think is strong for Indur (heck, in general, I dislike this for Balrog too but at least that guy is not moving around too much). Then I'd skip Heralded avoiding giving the guy even more influence without that mode ever getting discarded. So Black Rider is fine.

If Indûr is in play (as your Ringwraith), his company may use Under-deeps movement (+2 to movement rolls), and he can play The Balrog as an ally. Tap this card at the end of Indûr’s movement/hazard phase to allow his company to move again using Under-deeps movement. When using Under-deeps movement or at an Under-deeps site or its surface site, Indûr’s company is in Black Rider mode, may contain non-Ringwraith characters, and may attack or be attacked by a Balrog minion company. Characters with a home site of "Any Dark-hold" have a home site of "Any Under-deeps site" instead. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.