Wait a second guys... Av asked a really remarkable question there!
...about whether Jesus was actually encouraging people to worship him.
That is so central to things.

Wos wrote:

Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.

Rawedge Rim- I don't think I've talked to you as much as most of the people on this thread.
So your ways are not well-known to me. (and mine probably are not to you.)
So I'm going to ask... can I poke at you with some questions?

Wait a second guys... Av asked a really remarkable question there!
...about whether Jesus was actually encouraging people to worship him.
That is so central to things.

Wos wrote:

Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.

Rawedge Rim- I don't think I've talked to you as much as most of the people on this thread.
So your ways are not well-known to me. (and mine probably are not to you.)
So I'm going to ask... can I poke at you with some questions?

Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.

Much obliged.

------------------------------------------

Avatar wrote:

Wosbald wrote:

Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? Cuz I thought that you were asking whether or not love is enough.

If you want to split them though, then I would think that performing good works is more important than whether you actually love them or not. We are what we do, not what we think.

How does Jesus' death on the Cross factor into this? What is Death "with or without" (indifferent to) love?

Everyone dies. What might make Jesus' death different? So different, that Death/the Cross (something which would seem the antithesis of a work) becomes the Great Work (or even the "ground-breaking concept") of Christianity?_________________

Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.

Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.

Then maybe that's the real place to start the investigation prompted by this thread's OP. How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?_________________

...keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple

Do you think a Christian people sometimes have to choose between:
truly loving a neighbor/friend/family member... and loving God?

Wos- I think there's a strong sense in which Av's equating of love and good works is consonant with scripture.
I think he should get some bonus points for that.

Though I was totally not expecting the direction you took that... Jesus' submitting to the cross being in some ways the antithesis of a "work." (I'm chewing on that.)_________________"We human beings do real harm. History could make a stone weep." -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson

...keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple

Do you think a Christian people sometimes have to choose between:
truly loving a neighbor/friend/family member... and loving God?

Someone kidnaps you and your family. You sincerely believe in God. They tell you that you must deny God or they will shoot a member of your family. They also tell you that they will keep tabs on you, and if you display any faith in God, they will kill a member of your family. (think Steven Kings "Quitters Inc.) This will go on for the rest of your life.

Do you tell them that you will not renounce God, or do you renounce him?

Keep in mind that hundreds of thousands if not millions have been given this choice throughout history.

and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history._________________“One accurate measurement is worth a
thousand expert opinions.”
- Adm. Grace Hopper

"Whenever you dream, you're holding the key, it opens the the door to let you be free" ..RJD

Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.

--A

Keep in mind that he had the option of saying "I don't think so" and skipping out of the crucifixion. By the accounts of the scripture, he certainly had the power to avoid it if he rejected his role in this drama.

Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies._________________“One accurate measurement is worth a
thousand expert opinions.”
- Adm. Grace Hopper

"Whenever you dream, you're holding the key, it opens the the door to let you be free" ..RJD

How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?

I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:

and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies.

Thing is, what did he actually sacrifice? He knew that he would automatically go to heaven and resume his place there. Was that really such a big sacrifice?

How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?

I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:

and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies.

Thing is, what did he actually sacrifice? He knew that he would automatically go to heaven and resume his place there. Was that really such a big sacrifice?

--A

Jesus did not sacrifice his life as you are thinking of it. Instead he "became the ultimate sacrificial lamb" for the expiation of sin in man, hence the title "The Lamb of God".

Quote:

1 Peter 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot

How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?

I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:

and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.

Think of the question this way:

How did 12 guys manage in a couple of hundred years to convince the Roman Empire to convert to Christianity, especially as 11 died in the process, and one made a living actually killing Christian converts.

Try to convince 12 guys now to do something like that; "hey guys, I need you go out and preach this crazy religion, be dirt poor, and by the way, 11 of you will be tortured and killed in the process, and the last one will die in prison. Oh, and I need you to advocate something that most of your fellow Jews will nearly puke after hearing, which is to eat of the body and blood of Jesus in order to enter heaven."

Quote:

John 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

One of the things that I learned from that parable is that while people tend to learn from the prodigal son, I learn from the other son. I tend to be the 'first' son. Who says "Why is the son who went away and did everything wrong, the one welcomed and a party thrown for." i.e. I go to Church every week, tithe, pray, do for others.. why the big party for the person who did none of that?!

The Father greets him and wraps his arms around him and welcomes him home. And explains, "All I have is yours already, but your brother who was lost, is found."_________________"He torments himself sufficiently."

**"You can deny if you will but the "hens" didn't just happen to show up when they did, by accident. "**

"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch

Keep in mind another of ways that Jesus was ground breaking when set against Jewish tradition and Law:

According to Jewish tradition and law, a person suffering from misfortune was receiving his just punishment for either his own sin or his ancestors. Also according to the priests, it was unlawful, and therefore a sin, to do anything on the Sabbath, even heal the ill.

Quote:

John 9:2-34 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means "Sent"). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

Quote:

13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. 15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see." 16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner perform such signs?" So they were divided. 17Then they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet." 18They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. 19"Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?" 20"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him." 24A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God by telling the truth," they said. "We know this man is a sinner." 25He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" 26Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?" 27He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?" 28Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from." 30The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing." 34To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

...Someone kidnaps you and your family. You sincerely believe in God. They tell you that you must deny God or they will shoot a member of your family. They also tell you that they will keep tabs on you, and if you display any faith in God, they will kill a member of your family...

Okay - this is a challenging example to argue versus.
I had mentally prepared for a different argument.
(Like - on the one hand - people saying you're not being 'loving' because you're not being an enabler enabling someone to get what he or she wants.
OTOH, there are a hundred little ways that a Christian can neglect to love others in the day-to-day, and tell himself that he is doing it for God and be wrong. We must guard against this too.
And there's other cases...)

Anyway, your example has people choosing an evil course of action and intending to make an innocent captive complicit by their own choices.
But the Gospel must be robust against that, because we do live in a world which has evil. People really do act in that way.

Hmm, needs more time for thought.

SoulBiter wrote:

One of the things that I learned from that parable is that while people tend to learn from the prodigal son, I learn from the other son. I tend to be the 'first' son. Who says "Why is the son who went away and did everything wrong, the one welcomed and a party thrown for." i.e. I go to Church every week, tithe, pray, do for others.. why the big party for the person who did none of that?!

I am like this as well.
Once I was talking about God with someone who I didn't know well.
He spied my Bible, and said, "Is that your Bible? Do you go to church a lot?"
Annoyed with him because of our interaction so far and deciding "I'm gonna own it," or something, I said "Yeah, I'm kind of a church nut."
In that instant, the potential for me to do him good with that conversation shattered.
I had just laid out a narrative where I was just THAT kind of person, and he was a completely different one.

So I turned it over in my head for awhile, as one is wont to do... wondering what I should have said.
And then I began to remember what things used to be like.
When I was growing up, I didn't go to church.
As a kid, I would pass the signs of churches and wonder what their names meant. With words like "Nazarene" and such.
But I would quickly tell myself, "but that's not for us." (our family) "Because we're atheists."
Not annoyed and wanting to get inside. Just quietly indifferent.
And so it's really remarkable that I should be in a church at all.

Actually, I understand this parable IS written for folks in that position of "I'm the good kid."
The complaint of the older son echoes the grumbling of the pharisees and scribes whom Jesus is telling the parable to.
(Luke is masterful in his work of noting which audience Jesus speaks to.)

And yet the scenes from prodigal son's life are displayed in such detail for all to see. I think it's partly Jesus pointing the eyes of all those envious older-brother-like bystanders to the wretched condition of the younger brother saying, "Just look at him!"
"It looked like a good thing, but don't you see how much it cost him? Do you really just think he got all the fun?"

The two sons are not that different:
one son thinks that pleasure can be found in stuff and what stuff can buy.
The other thinks that pleasure will be found in reminding himself (and everyone else who will listen!) of his self-righteous duty.
Both are far from the father. One is physically absent; the other is present, but his heart is absent.
And neither of them has any idea just how willing the father is to be generous.

Not that different at all.
and in that spirit, here's what I'm thinking about this...

Avatar wrote:

Thing is, what did he actually sacrifice? He knew that he would automatically go to heaven and resume his place there. Was that really such a big sacrifice?

I always have questions like that nagging in the back of my mind, too.
It's like my mind hasn't wrapped itself around someone truly God also being truly man.

But that's not what the scriptures are saying.
Jesus' agony in the garden of Gesthemane - when contemplating - deciding about - going to His death - had him deeply distressed / horrified / alarmed / anxious.

Also, the part about being a sinless person... how do we consider that? Might it make someone capable of experiencing MORE excruciating mental anguish than you or I can?
...since he has not numbed himself to grieving over the world's sorrows and injustices.
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Anyway, Av's question is one that bugs me too, so if others have answers that speak to it, I want to hear them.. for me.

P.S. Sorry for the long post guys... it's totally me trying to make up for my flakey absences.

So you were raised an atheist home and rebelled by becoming a Christian?

That's how it sounds, right?
Well, God can use that, too.

When I went off to college, I literally got the "If you want to be religious, you can read the Bible; that's fine. You can pray; that's fine. But don't go and get involved with organized religion!" talk.
I even remember thinking about it very seriously when making a decision about whether to go to a Bible study I saw a poster for..
that first week on campus._________________"We human beings do real harm. History could make a stone weep." -Gilead, by Marilynne Robinson