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[attila] Re: Women and work

... Thank you very much, but watch it with the male influence comments!! Unfortunately I actually don t have a brother and hardly have a father in my life i.e

Message 1 of 26
, Sep 1, 1999

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> ><snip - rest amply answered by Joanna (not bad for "idealistic" 18 year
>old
> >- maybe her dad or older brother helped her)>
>
>What worries me is that in many ways, she has proved herself far more adult
>than any of her elder peers!
>

Thank you very much, but watch it with the male influence comments!!
Unfortunately I actually don't have a brother and hardly have a father in my
life i.e the common or garden fully functional 'disfunctional' family (may
act as way of an explanation to many!)

______________________________________________________

Iain Monks

... such ... I agree with that fully, what started the average woman debate was the complaint that certain professions are dominated by men whilst others are

Message 2 of 26
, Sep 1, 1999

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>Firstly I believe, as you, that it is simply unjustified to employ both a
>man and a woman for one job simply to prove a bizarre point in equal
>opportunities.
>My point was that each woman is an individual who may have the ability to
>cope with such a job - or may not. If she does, and wishes to apply for

such

>a position, I believe that she shouldn't be hindered by her gender and
>should be considered on an equal footing as any man applying.

I agree with that fully, what started the 'average woman' debate was the
complaint that certain professions are dominated by men whilst others are
dominated by women, I proposed a reason for this, and was quite happy to
stand up to the flack it caused.

>I am not
>saying that women should be forced to into the jobs that have been
>traditionally seen as male work, simply that they should not be discouraged
>from entering any field they choose if they are capable of doing the work
>involved.

A friend of my mother, followed her father into the engineering trade, going
through university, and competing as a equal, worked as an engineer and
excelled at it. The only prefferential treatment necessary was with regards
to toilet facilities. A "feminist" social worker on hearing this was
outraged that the woman wasn't given better treatment/facilities than the
men to make up for her being a woman in a mans environment.

The only way I can see for true equality to exist is to be a proper feminist
like the former, and shoot the latter on sight :o)

>This is just as applicable to men as I would imagine there are men
>in this world that would be just as unsuitable as some women for work
>involving heavy lifting.

Especially after ten pints and a curry :o)

>I totally agree. Although I have completed my A levels and obtained a place
>at university I am actually not starting my course until the year 2000. The
>whole concept of walking out of one educational establishment into another
>was frankly suffocating.

When you get there, take a long look at the people that have come straight
from school, you may find it surprising how nieve and idealistic they seem,
as I said, a year makes a huge difference.

>I have literally arrived back from a month deciding
>that I would never like to live in the USA (although the people I met there
>and places I have seen have all taught me invaluable lessons).

I've never yet met an American that I would consider completely sane, (but
this may have something to do with the fact that most of the ones I have met
have been Morris Dancers) personally, I blame the fact that the country was
started by a bunch of religious fanatics :o)

>I seem to remember something to the point that the
>more variables you introduce into a range, the less valid the average
>becomes.

The idea of an average (or mean) is to even out the extremes, so I should
think that a larger population will cause a more accurate overall result, as
individual results will tend to cluster around the average rather than being
on the extremes of the range.

>While I'm not disputing that if you take all the women in the
>world, add together all their capabilities and divide that by the number of
>women you would get an average. What I would like to point out is that the
>average woman is rather elusive

While a total Ms Average would be extremely elusive, a woman with average
strength wouldn't be too hard to find, the same with any of the elements we
were discussing, and if you compare those averages with those of men you
will see differences that are overall characteristic of gender.

>and that as long as individuals remain
>varied in their abilities and strengths then we must judge on the

individual

>and not the gender. This, obviously, goes for both sexes.

Yeah, what seems to have got lost somewhere in this argument is that I was
pointing out that some jobs will have a tendancy towards one gender or
another, not that jobs should be doled out according to sex.

>The eternally-learning, aspiring radical feminist!! (or maybe not)
>(Will be hitting the north late in the year 2000 - watch out Iain!)

... Um, because I was being sarcastic. It was supposed to be a parody of Iain s position. Presumably it didn t work. ... XXY is actually quite common. But

Message 3 of 26
, Sep 2, 1999

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Alley wrote:

>
> > Clearly from this we can
> deduce that she is
> >far more of a man than I am and that I would make a far more
> caring mother
> >than she ever could.
>
> Clearly? How dare you make a statement like that?

Um, because I was being sarcastic. It was supposed to be a parody of Iain's
position. Presumably it didn't work.

> >Last time I looked into the subject, there were some dozen
> or so "sex"
> >chromosome combinations in humans of which XX and XY are but two.
>
> OK - I've only heard of XX, XY and XXY which is extremely
> rare - please
> could you list the other 9 or so and the result of such combinations.
>

The 2A indicates a diploid set of autosomes and 3A a triploid set (being
made up of one haploid autosome and one diploid autosome).

The gene that lies on the Y chromosome that triggers the growth of the
testis is the testis-determining factor or TDF. Since mutations of the Y
chromosome can lack the TDF gene then XY and XXY combinations can result in
a female and mutant versions of the X chromosome carrying the TDF gene thus
XX, XO and XXX combinations can give rise to males.

However, only the XX, XY, XO, 2A:XXY and 2A:XXX combinations have ever been
found in humans (i.e. the triploid autosome combinations do not occur) and
so when the TDF gene is taken into account then there are 10 potential sex
chromosome combinations to be found in humans. In addition though, very
rare combinations such as XXYY, XXXY, XXXXY and XY/XXY can also occur
bringing the figure back to 14. I'm not sure if any of these are only
theoretical though. There may be more but I haven't come across them.

Interestingly (or maybe not depending on your view), 1/700 men are XXY
(known as Klinefelter's Syndrome) and 1/5,000 women XO(Turner's Syndrome)
according to a Virginia University website
(http://wsrv.clas.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdet.html). There is evidence that
some 95% of XO zygotes spontaneously abort which may explain the 700/5,000
difference. Both of these (groups of) combinations gives rise to normally
infertile people (which is part of the reason why they are identified as
syndromes). XXX women are normally fertile in contrast. One last combination
YO can occur but the resultant zygote always fails to develop.

If you want to look into this subject in more detail then, in addition to
the above mentioned web site, I extracted most of the information from the
Open University Biology Form & Function book: "Development", edited by Brian
Goodwin and published by Hodder & Stoughton which is alleged to be stocked
by most university libraries.

Apologies to everyone else who has been sent to sleep by this impromptu
biology lesson.

>
> What worries me is that in many ways, she has proved herself
> far more adult
> than any of her elder peers!
>

Well I can only speak for myself in that I got bored of being an adult and
decided it was far more fun to remain a big kid all my life...

David Arno.

Iain Monks

... Reminds me of a friends comment about his life in re-enactment, I tried reality, and didn t like it

Message 4 of 26
, Sep 2, 1999

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>Well I can only speak for myself in that I got bored of being an adult and
>decided it was far more fun to remain a big kid all my life...

Reminds me of a friends comment about his life in re-enactment, "I tried
reality, and didn't like it"

JBooth9192@aol.com

Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist

Message 5 of 26
, Sep 3, 1999

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<< radical feminism has pushed too hard in saying that men and women are the
same >>

Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist thought
developed in the 70s and 80s, actually placed great emphasis on differences
between men and women. They argued that feminists should place their faith in
a 'special world of women', and that women were nurturing and men aggressive.
They saw feminism as a struggle by all women against all men. Those that
followed radical feminism to its natural conclusion became separatists.

Socialist feminists, on the other hand, sought to explain how the
subordination of women had developed socially and historically (rather than
being biologically determined and therefore unchangeable), and, alongside
building an autonomous women's movement, advocated women and men working
together to overcome oppression and discrimination.

Iain's views have more in common with radical feminism than he realises.

Incidentally, I have followed the discussion on my abilities to work, be
politically active and be a mother with great interest. Unfortunately, at
only 3 months old, my son Alex is unable to contribute his opinion on my
parenting skills (although he looks very contented at the moment). Without
being arrogant, I think I am quite competent a being a railway station
supervisor, a mother and an active socialist. You see, it's not a case of
being one thing or another - 'like a man or like a woman'.

... in ... aggressive. ... I view radical feminists as the A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle brigade but who then decide that to be equal they

Message 6 of 26
, Sep 3, 1999

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>Quite the opposite, in fact. Radical feminism, a strand of feminist thought
>developed in the 70s and 80s, actually placed great emphasis on differences
>between men and women. They argued that feminists should place their faith

in

>a 'special world of women', and that women were nurturing and men

aggressive.

>They saw feminism as a struggle by all women against all men. Those that
>followed radical feminism to its natural conclusion became separatists.

I view radical feminists as the "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a
bicycle" brigade but who then decide that to be equal they will need all
these extra provisions because they are "only women."

>Socialist feminists, on the other hand, sought to explain how the
>subordination of women had developed socially and historically (rather than
>being biologically determined and therefore unchangeable), and, alongside
>building an autonomous women's movement, advocated women and men working
>together to overcome oppression and discrimination.

I certainly don't consider women biologically inferior, but I do consider
them (on average) to have different strenghths and weaknesses to men.

>Incidentally, I have followed the discussion on my abilities to work, be
>politically active and be a mother with great interest.

At no point have I questioned anyone's abilities as a worker, a parent, or
a political nutter!!!!

I believe it was you who complained that jobs like teaching and nursing were
dominated by women, whilst jobs like engineering weren't. I think that the
difference between the sexes plays a large part in this. I don't believe
that your gender bars you from any job, just makes people in general tend
towards one type of career over another.

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