Which of course, is why many feminists find M/f problematic. Not because it's what some women want, but because men can seize on the idea that it's what ALL women want. Any little thing that preserves privilege.

See also: John Norman. I have absolutely no problem with people who want to play Gor as their personal fantasy between consenting adults, but from what I recall of his non-fiction utterances he seemed to believe that EVERYBODY was wired that way deep down inside.

AFAICT, BDSM is orthogonal to feminism. Some people find ways to make BDSM into a feminist statement, some incorporate it into very anti-feminist philosophies, many are somewhere in the middle.

That said, if you see M/f as problematic... spare a thought for PoC subs with white partners. I know one of my friends who does quite a bit of processing on that account.

See also: John Norman. I have absolutely no problem with people who want to play Gor as their personal fantasy between consenting adults, but from what I recall of his non-fiction utterances he seemed to believe that EVERYBODY was wired that way deep down inside.

AFAICT, BDSM is orthogonal to feminism. Some people find ways to make BDSM into a feminist statement, some incorporate it into very anti-feminist philosophies, many are somewhere in the middle.

That said, if you see M/f as problematic... spare a thought for PoC subs with white partners. I know one of my friends who does quite a bit of processing on that account.

Absolutely. And not to "and and" it, because race DOES have its own position, but I'll "and and" it anyway...

And Jews into Nazis, and "call me faggot" gay boys - in fact I'd say people are FAR more "squicked" by that kind of identity play and race play and race itself as an issue (doesn't mean they're not racist, just that there's a boundary) but "slut" and "bitch" get very little substantial examination.

It's a pet name for someone, maybe someone else doesn't want to have to be bathed it just to even enter an SM space. But guess what, mes amis, there is NO WAY to be into SM without listening to it constantly.

I'm thrilled that someone's got a grip on her sexuality again and YAYYYYY but when I hear M/f couples on this tangent I kind of want to punch someone in not fun ways, so really, the parties are more exhausting than they're worth.

It's a scene I can't just "not watch if I'm not comfortable" it's DEMANDED of every single participant to be exposed to this dynamic, constantly. Even women only parties I've been to that draw participants heavily from the pansexual community continue this dynamic and carry it throughout. It is DEMANDED of you. Go to a Domme party and guess what, it's a high tea with feminized "sluts" in service, great.

I've got no problem with this, sometimes I even like it, but you know what I like better? I like having fucking options.I get testy that everyone around me is "yayyyy we have sexual options" and I'm left outside the door on this one if I don't want their options and they DO NOT EVEN SEE IT.

The way I feel about "problematic sex" - the very existence of sex between unequal parties - is that the sex can be problematic without the people being problematized or pathologized. I think it's all about the fact that we have to negotiate the fact of inequality in a very personal fashion. People don't understand "the personal is political" I think. It's not supposed to be about Maoist "self criticism" sessions and litmus tests for your politics, it's supposed to remind you that your style of navigating these inequalities is another political "story", an awareness that your choices and preferences come from somewhere - that's more it.

__________________If I had my way we'd sleep every night all wrapped around each other like hibernating rattlesnakes.

Oh, but there is. Just don't go out looking for people that wear it on their sleeve.

I mean shit, I'm ace. I don't want to be around people IRL who make a deal about their kinky sex life because there are things that I find much more fun while in the company of... everyone else who isn't my partner.

There was a time when I thought dipping into the "scene" would be a great time but then I remembered that I literally give no fucks about any of it and likely wouldn't get along with anyone.

I've been pegged as one of those haughty feminists who poo-poo sex and genital tinglies--and that's back when I was identifying as demi, even--and therefore couldn't be taken seriously when it came to discussions about sexuality. (Either because I was too out of touch to know what I was talking about, or because I'd been mangled by the patriarchal cock machine that told me I was supposed to be chaste and non-sexual.) And being a queer that doesn't like boobs? Oh my god, I'm such a gender traitor.

So pretty much every radical feminist would look at me and see something on par with the good Christian wife who submits to her husband because the Bible Says So. It's all bullshit, but the take-away, as Stella pointed out, is to not act like the idiot, angsty teenage rebel without a cause, flipping the bird to anyone who has an opinion about you without giving a single second of thought to what the hell it is that you're actually doing; you flip them the bird and then think about what it is that you're doing anyways because not thinking is what gets us collectively stepping into giant piles of shit to begin with.

__________________Fistfelt:n. 1. A blog about asexuality, genderlessness, androphilia, macrophilia, low-libidinousness, and how they interact.

Careful with the evopsyche arguments, Corwith. It's bad science even at its best-- Most people get nothing more out of it than excuses for behaving like tools.

search out the term "environmental psychology" for a better and more comprehensive system"

I don't believe that I made any excuses for anyone, and I certainly have no interest in doing so. I spoke mostly of power, and people's desire for it; and that has very little to do with sex, sexual orientation or even age. Everyone wants power, with no exception; even the least ambitious amongst us desire the power and freedom to be themselves, if nothing else. You (the objective you) will not find freedom from power struggles so long as you remain alive. It's a part of life, it's a part of dealing with others; it is just how it is. This is not an excuse, it is just a statement of fact.

You can certainly choose to disguise your struggles behind pretty words and false smiles, but that doesn't change what they inherently are. Just like how those kind words and false smiles won't soften the blows to those who are truly aware of them. You (again, the objective you) may call it being humane, but I call it a petty disguise at best. Twisting a knife with a mouth is little different than twisting it with a fist. We may have convinced ourselves otherwise, but the actions and the intentions are essentially the same. It's all about eliminating the competition, one way or the other.

To get more to the point; you can try to blame it on men, you can try to blame it on women, or on orientation or on whatever but it's all about the power. Your power, their power and the differences between both them and the ideal. To put it another way; Feminism, itself, is just another struggle for power. This is not to say anything against the cause, but the people who are fighting for it have a broad range of ambitions and some are using the movement itself as a tool. Again; it all comes down to the power. Their power, your power and so on; and so long as there is a will, there will be a struggle for it.

Your options are basically to take a side and fight, ignore it and hope that the fighting goes away or mind your own business and hope that no one gives you any shit for it. Personally; I'm not much for leading or being led.

So many feminists say Bdsm puts women's rights years back but in my opinion I think its not true. Feminists should see being feminists is about making your own choices so if a woman decides to be a sub/slave or pet its their choice. I'm all for female rights but the feminists should see its a woman's right to decide what they do in the bedroom. What does everyone else think ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iris86

If you look at shows like I Dream Of Jeannie, you can see how words like ''master'' can be very disturbing to women who are trying to advance forward in a world that is still largely controlled and run by men. This pop cultural reference feeds into a much larger cultural pattern of men controlling most things, and women left at the wayside, again i could go on, but there are tremendous economic, social, cultural and more inequalities that we are facing. So i don't know exactly what you are sick of --- women fighting for equality?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessAmelia

I'm sick of the feminsts who say that a woman sexual desires are being judge and blamed for putting the womens rights fight back hundreds of years it not like when I've been with a dom man I call him sir and did whatever he said in normal life there was a time and place for it and think a womens sex life is hers no one should judge anyone for what they like they should stick to what they do best making work places and communities better for women. They should be getting women and men equal pay if there in the same job doing things like that instead of attacking women who like to be submissive in the bedroom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosco rathbone

I like to think of bdsm as a big tent with "left" and "right" wings.

bdsm as a whole provides a place for people who are out of sync with societal norms, but we aren't all out of sync the same way.

On one side you've got people who are pushing the boundaries in avant garde, never-seen-before ways. That's the "left" wing. On the other side you've got people who are retrograde in a way that makes them abnormal to society at large. Many of them have adopted the ways and means of bdsm because only in bdsm terms is it now possible to talk openly of old school male supremacy. (That's not completely true, but I'm always watching for the inevitable merger of "conservative Christianity" and bdsm").

I skipped two pages and picked the responses on the first page that I want to address. Not individually, rather as a group.

BDSM is NOT a behavior, it is a range of behaviors. To me it is exclusive to sexual encounters for the purpose of mutual gratification\, not a way of life. I'm certain that many here will disagree, sobeit.

The whole supremacy argument is a two way street. BDSM is the willing surrender of control for the purpose of gratification. There is no gender in that.

The whole supremacy argument is a two way street. BDSM is the willing surrender of control for the purpose of gratification. There is no gender in that.

Ishmael

Another point that's important there- and if it's been said earlier I apologize for the repetition, my memory's not as good as it used to be- is the willing aspect. Consent is a big deal in BDSM, and a willing surrender of control is orders of magnitude away from the non-consensual loss of control that women experience outside of kink. Even if we accept the proposition that kink has a specific gender alignment, this submission is something given freely, not taken, or expected from a patriarchal society.

Even if we accept the proposition that kink has a specific gender alignment, this submission is something given freely, not taken, or expected from a patriarchal society.

I think in any argument where D/s runs along a gendered axis takes away even just the tiniest bit of willing consent because then the reason for wanting it isn't about you, it's about your physical gendered anatomy, which you don't have much control over. (In a society such as this, also, people who seek gender mobility, aka non-binary and trans* people, would still be shoved to the bottom of the ladder for simply looking to occupy the role they were not born in and having "fake" anatomy.)

And it very much is expected (or at least optimistically hoped for) in a patriarchal society... that's sort of the definition of patriarchy.

__________________Fistfelt:n. 1. A blog about asexuality, genderlessness, androphilia, macrophilia, low-libidinousness, and how they interact.

Shouldn't that be: "Mostly what makes a feminist vocal is that she or he speaks up."?

Or can't a guy be a feminist?

As in BDSM so should be in all things (feminism included). Pipe dreams, actually.

I've yet to meet a male XY born male ID'd feminist. Those who are don't identify that way and those who identify that way seldom are.

Mostly evidenced by the fact that after constructing a language wherein "he" is the universal pronoun for like a thousand years, they can't handle quietly including themselves when faced with "she" and have to point out that they're not getting theirs, and that feminist women are not giving them extra attention points for having a penis and being cool.

Wah.

It's your turn to go "oh this shoe fits" not ask if it comes in blue also.

What's more, why does any woman have to explain this to you? Educate self. Think.

__________________If I had my way we'd sleep every night all wrapped around each other like hibernating rattlesnakes.

Hello, I thought I would jump into this conversation. I was raised to believe we could do it all. We should be wives, mothers, and have successful careers. Unfortunately, I have discovered, as many of my friends, we can't do it all, or at least well. I don't care how often the media tells us otherwise. Real women in the real world struggle daily to meet all their obligations.

I'm tired, and I know I'm not alone. Equality to me means both men and women take on the responsibilities of running the home and raising the kids, as well as earning equal pay for equal work. Unfortunately, women are working full time jobs and going home to be full time housewives.

If I need to submit in the bedroom as a means to relax and enjoy myself that is my right. If I can't do it all and find I need to submit outside of the bedroom that's fine as well. We are not superwomen. I feel I was cheated when I was told as a young girl I could do it all. I just can't. I know there are women who claim they can do it all. It's just hard for me to believe them. Something has to give. There just is not enough time in the day to do it all. They either have hired help or they're dropping the ball in some area of their lives.

My life is a delicate balance of work and home life. All it takes is one missed or rescheduled appointment to mess things up. What I wouldn't give to have had a husband willing to give as much in the home as I did. I think I could have managed better.

Amelia, your life is too short and you are the only person who can live it. I highly recommend you do what you need to do to get through your day. Don't worry about criticisms by other people. If they are true feminists they will be fighting for your rights and not just their agenda.

BTW- I'm a Latina with a Master's degree working a professional job raising a young daughter. The women of my family (mother and grandmother both hold Master's degrees as well) taught me a woman should always have an independent income from her husband. I have to hire help to make my life work for me. I have a cleaning lady come by once a week and my daughter attends daycare while I work.

Agree with this. I totally understand your frustration, and I don't have kids. Even if I did intend to, there's no way I could stop working to have them anyway. I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but in London, if you have a career, you have help. Preferably a nanny who lives in. Or else most women put their career on hold for about a decade. Juggling school commitments isn't easy, even with flexible working. Doesn't appeal to me!

As I understand it, and I have far from studied it: there are two types of feminists re to the topic of bdsm. There are the sex positive feminists who believe that bdsm is a way to explore sexuality and feminists who believe that bdsm contributes to violence and oppression towards women. As far as research is concerned--none of it backs up violence towards women. Although many studies have shown that when men view porn or films that involve violence towards women (non-consensual)...they then respond more violently to post-viewing questions/scenarios. Thus the fear that porn/bdsm contributes to violence towards women.

Before I became active in bdsm, I was an old school feminist (jeez I went to a feminist college in the 80's) and was a little skeptical re: bdsm and feminism. How can a submissive be feminist--I was wondering. In truth the doormat kind of slave is far from a feminist I think. However, I believe that this type of women would pretty much be subservient in the vanilla world regardless of kink. Most vanilla people feel that subs are all doormat type slaves I think. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

Truth of the matter, is that because of all the consensual pre-talk (excepting Slaves who give up their consensual rights--let's face it slaves can walk away) bdsm sex can be safer than vanilla sex when practiced correctly. The problem is that bdsm hits the news media when it gets out of control and is practiced non-responsibly.