Trouble logging in?If you can't remember your password or are having trouble logging in, you will have to reset your password. If you have trouble resetting your password (for example, if you lost access to the original email address), please do not start posting with a new account, as this is against the forum rules. If you create a temporary account, please contact us right away via Forum Support, and send us any information you can about your original account, such as the account name and any email address that may have been associated with it.

What did you guys make of the whole dream scene with Kiritsugu whittling away at the people he was saving. I wasn't sure how it was supposed to deconstruct his ideal, even though I know it was supposed to.

I took it as a never ending cycle thing. There are plenty of ways to interpret it. But, I think the bottom line is that Kiritsugu didn't quite realize what he truly wanted was a happy family. He was so busy being influenced from his past that he didn't truly look towards the future. Unfortunately, he realized the grail wasn't really a wish granting device but was in fact evil.

But that just brings up the question of what would be put in the place of loli-Rin? There really isn't anything that can be done when the plan was to break the show into two seasons. They needed their cliffhanger ending, so you can't bump material back an episode for spacing...thus Saber/Berserker still get no more time, because their is no way to shift from S2 to S1 if they want their cliffhanger.

If there was no season break, and thus no reason for a cliffhanger, then shifting Rin around for more space would be justifable. But with the split, there is no way to pull it off and get more room into the second season.

Personally, I would have been much more pleased if the TV airing had no loli-Rin episode, and through saving some time that way, we'd have more time dedicated to the final Saber/Berserker fight.

The thing is, taking out an episode doesn't mean the future episodes will be better. The only way it would have worked was if they did 12 episodes in the first cour but they had 13, which isn't always decided upon by the writers. Episode 11 couldn't have been cut in two and subtracting all of the episodes would mean ending the season without that fantastic cliffhanger.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but I think they did well with what they were given. Besides, who knows what the blu-ray will be like.

I find that for the most part the way that Fate/Zero handles its episodes in a self-contained manner works really well when you get the entire episode. Naturally, this causes issues like episode 24 where you get things cut off from the television broadcast, but that's not really a problem since the blu-ray version is the only version that matters anyway.

It's just like a movie edited for television broadcast, where chunks of it are removed from various places due to the pacing in a time-constrained environment.

the j♂y of Kotomine stops here. The grail ending Kiritsugu's dream for him.

I find it funny how that final choice echos so much to Saya no Uta. The black snow outside, the world of silence. The only difference is that his personal belief of sacrificing for the world made him come to that decision. By making that choice he is sacrificing also his daughter, and betraying Iris' wish.

This may be the question that will be answered next episode, but I wonder how will he be able to achieve salvation, if he's able to obtain it at all by this stage.

I don't understand why people are saying this was a good episode...it really wasn't. I suppose the "important" part of it was done well, which was the Kiritsugu inside the grail but everything else? Kirei vs Kiritsugu, Saber vs Lancelot, Gilgamesh and saber, the last command spell...ugh.

First, the fight between Kiritsugu and Kirei was too cheesy for my tastes. As soon as Kirei bust out his martial arts stances and did those fancy prep moves i was like "oh no". That, the comical Kirei knife blocking, and the random back flip i saw somewhere did not make me an amused viewer. And why'd they change the location to Bruce Wayne's storehouse?

The thing that really got me about that fight though, was the lack of tension. Kiritsugu pushing his limits with the help of Avalon, using double accel for extended periods, then triple and square..i saw none of that. I don't know if it was because of the voice acting or the portrayal, i simply just didn't feel it. Also, Kirei throwing those black key's at the end made no sense whatsoever. Yeah, i'm a novel reader so i know what he was doing, but to an anime only person, it would make them think "why?". I'm surprised nobody's commented on that. Another let down was the "end"to their fight. It was supposed to be a life or death situation where they either kill the other or die in that split second, but to me it just felt like another part of their weirdly natural fight before they were interrupted.

I'm going to take it for granted that the Saber and Lancelot fight will be extended in the BD's, including flashbacks and all, so i'll withhold judgement for now.

Finally, Kiritsugu using two command spells looked like he did it for the lulz. It didn't show Saber using her magical resistance to fight it or anything. Sure, people would figure it out eventually, but to me it was just another badly portrayed scene. And Gilgamesh noticing Kiritsugu felt like he had known he was there all along, but just didn't do anything about it.

Yeah, i'm really ripping this episode apart, but i was seriously disappointed

I don't care about the characters involved in this episode, so I just look at the story and animation to decide if it's good. There wasn't anything particularly bad about it, so I just marked the episode as a 7/10 and called it a day.

I don't understand why people are saying this was a good episode...it really wasn't.

But it was, at least I (and most of us) really liked it despite the skipped stuff.

And the cheesiness in Kiritsugu vs. Kirei was always there, even Urobuchi says that Kotomine Super Bajiquan is absurd and cheesy, inspired in martial arts films. Here they give it a hollywood movie feel, so it was delightful.

I don't understand why people are saying this was a good episode...it really wasn't. I suppose the "important" part of it was done well, which was the Kiritsugu inside the grail but everything else? Kirei vs Kiritsugu, Saber vs Lancelot, Gilgamesh and saber, the last command spell...ugh.

Some of us like flashy, comic book-style fights. I respect that it's not for everybody... but this anime has been pretty comic-booky in a lot of its fights, imo (and I speak as somebody who was a big comic book fan in his teenage years). Coming from me, "comic book-style fights" is a compliment.

Quote:

Also, Kirei throwing those black key's at the end made no sense whatsoever. Yeah, i'm a novel reader so i know what he was doing, but to an anime only person, it would make them think "why?". I'm surprised nobody's commented on that.

I'll admit that there was some bizarre stuff going down in Kiritsugu vs. Kirei that I didn't have a clue about.

This is the sort of stuff I tend to just roll with, though (if I did that for Guilty Crown I can certainly do it for Fate/Zero).

Honestly, Kirei and Kiritsugu have always felt vaguely superhuman to me, just in ways that weren't entirely clear. Heck, even Maiya gave me a "wtf?!" moment several episodes back when she sliced off Sola-Ui's arm like she was cutting through butter.

But Fate/Zero presents this with such impeccable style that I just love it regardless.

Quote:

Another let down was the "end"to their fight. It was supposed to be a life or death situation where they either kill the other or die in that split second,

That's how it felt to me. Well, admittedly, I've never been quite sure of what exactly it takes to kill Kirei.

But Kiritsugu seemed on the verge of dying at any point that Kirei got a good hold on him.

Quote:

And Gilgamesh noticing Kiritsugu felt like he had known he was there all along, but just didn't do anything about it.

... That's exactly how I took it. Is that a problem? It's hardly OoC for Gilgamesh to consider a guy like Kiritsugu beneath him.

The thing that really got me about that fight though, was the lack of tension. Kiritsugu pushing his limits with the help of Avalon, using double accel for extended periods, then triple and square..i saw none of that. I don't know if it was because of the voice acting or the portrayal, i simply just didn't feel it.

probably just you then, because that final bullet loading scene feel so bloody slow and tense. You read the novel already so you already know that he's going into 4x, where as the anime viewers don't. Considering that we already know going haste is putting more strain to the body, and Kiritsugu didn't use beyond double before the activation of Avalon, and we all know that Avalon provides insane healing power, it's pretty simple to put 2 and 2 together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EssTEss

Also, Kirei throwing those black key's at the end made no sense whatsoever. Yeah, i'm a novel reader so i know what he was doing, but to an anime only person, it would make them think "why?". I'm surprised nobody's commented on that. Another let down was the "end"to their fight. It was supposed to be a life or death situation where they either kill the other or die in that split second, but to me it just felt like another part of their weirdly natural fight before they were interrupted.

If you look closely, both parties are defenceless to another person's attack, Kirei is not going to block the bullet again, and Kiritsugu got no defence against those 4 black keys around him. It's clear that it won't end well before the grail intervened. When it's that obvious there's no need to comment on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EssTEss

Finally, Kiritsugu using two command spells looked like he did it for the lulz. It didn't show Saber using her magical resistance to fight it or anything. Sure, people would figure it out eventually, but to me it was just another badly portrayed scene. And Gilgamesh noticing Kiritsugu felt like he had known he was there all along, but just didn't do anything about it.

well, saber stopped it temporarily when he only used one, when Lancer died pretty quickly to just one command seal. Also why should Gilgamesh worry about Kiritsugu anyway?

Considering that we already know going haste is putting more strain to the body, and Kiritsugu didn't use beyond double before the activation of Avalon, and we all know that Avalon provides insane healing power, it's pretty simple to put 2 and 2 together.

Not only that, but when he was just using Triple Accel (when he was having the knife fight), his face was straining to the point that his veins were protruding.

As for Saber, it's obvious she's resisting. You know, since she was commanded to do something, and she didn't do it. And when he started to cast the next command, and she was visibly shaking from resisting? And moving slowly and jaggedly?

Anyway, while the Berserker fight was horribly cut short (they better expand on that in the BD or I'd be more than a little upset), the Grail scene and final scene more than made up for it. Poor Kiritsugu, offing Ilya like that. I think very few people would be able to toss away their family like that, even if it were for the rest of the world.

As an anime-only viewer, I thought it was another great episode. Even if I was a manga reader, I always try to let an anime adaption stand on its own. Frankly, I find it insulting over the last 20 some episodes how often people would whine ostensibly on 'behalf' of us poor anime-only viewers because we 'obviously' wouldn't understand what's going on, as a deflection for whatever hair-brained insinuated fault a person personally had with the show. I can't speak for all anime-only viewers, but I really don't need you manga-readers to be my knight-in-shining armor. You don't like the way the anime did something? Fine, but don't drag us anime-only-viewers into your issues. I've yet to see a single one of these so-called offenses to us anime-only viewers actually matter, as an anime-only viewer. Whew. Did I say anime-only viewer enough times?

Anyways, that's all I'll say on that subject. On to the matter at hand.

That look of pure anguish on Saber's face was so golden. It's actually hilarious how Gilgamesh-inadvertently-is the rational one among the heroes, with his attitude towards the grail. To think, after all that, Saber is going to spend another 24+ anime episodes unable to grasp the fundamental truths/lessons learned throughout this series, is so very sad, as well as being borderline hilarious. I tip my hat to you Urobuchi. Most people don't have the balls to outshine, while criticizing, the original author's work. I know you've been the perfect model of modesty and deference in interviews regarding the 'great' Nasu, but that just makes this series all the more delightful.

Anyways, all these posts make it sound like that was the end or something. I mean, we're still counting down right?