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If all you really want is vanilla with some new provinces in south america I could take vanilla and just do that as that would be fairly easy as compared with me adding a bunch of permanent pti back to my map or removing a bunch of provinces. I could also take MM which includes Japan and then just modify South America. Not really interested in redoing North America again at this time.

I think what I would realy like is for all of the map to be vanilla other than these things:

-Sengoku Japan provinces made by Sakura. (I have the mod if the link no longer works from the 'master mod list'.
-SA to remain the same other than some added provinces for the inca. these provinces would basicly split up the current ones and adding maybe 5 to 10 more. I will provide a screenshot with rough drawings of the provinces if you are interested. These Inca changes can be done in the future if it is not hard for you to edit the map a second time.
-Your north america content as it is if you are able to add it to the map.

It may be easiest to just start with Sakura's Sengoku mod map, which means you only need to add your NA content and Inca. The Inca provinces should probably only be added later on after I get a detailed province map made as I will need to research what will be best concerning historic Inca provinces and modern borders. If it is too annoying to do these things I understand, No pressure here so please dont feel obligated.

If you can get these things done, I will be very gratefull and mention you in the 'special thanks', manual, and next version of the mod (7.36 if new map) .

I think what I would realy like is for all of the map to be vanilla other than these things:

-Sengoku Japan provinces made by Sakura. (I have the mod if the link no longer works from the 'master mod list'.
-SA to remain the same other than some added provinces for the inca. these provinces would basicly split up the current ones and adding maybe 5 to 10 more. I will provide a screenshot with rough drawings of the provinces if you are interested. These Inca changes can be done in the future if it is not hard for you to edit the map a second time.
-Your north america content as it is if you are able to add it to the map.

It may be easiest to just start with Sakura's Sengoku mod map, which means you only need to add your NA content and Inca. The Inca provinces should probably only be added later on after I get a detailed province map made as I will need to research what will be best concerning historic Inca provinces and modern borders. If it is too annoying to do these things I understand, No pressure here so please dont feel obligated.

If you can get these things done, I will be very gratefull and mention you in the 'special thanks', manual, and next version of the mod (7.36 if new map) .

I will start work on the Inca province screenshot....

Anyway, I can be annoying and picky, so I am sorry...

The map files consist of several files all of which need to be exactly the same but are in different formats. If some island etc is slightly different between the differnt files it can cause problems. Therefore while I can start with Sengoku (which I have) I don't know what bugs with the various files have been found and fixed by MM. Therefore I suggest starting with MM which I know works and I believe is the same as Sengoku except for 3 little changes in Germany. Other wise we might be hunting down CTD problems - something we don't want to do.

Give me the go ahead to start with MM (they gave their ok) and I will add back my North America Changes (will be some work but can be done and I have the time). I will also make the Inca changes if you can get me the information.

Tell me one more time - do you or don't you want the great lakes - atlantic connection? Historically explorers such as the French traveled this route but I believe they had to carry thier boats overland for some sections which is hard to do in the game. So if you want an explorer to travel the paths of the French into central america then the connection is good. If you want to do it by land exploration which may not follow the great lakes than the connection is bad. Paradox defaulted to no connection. Of course the French also traveled down the Mississippi which in the game has to be done by land but mostly I beleive they started around the great lakes region. There were historical naval battles on the lakes but the ships were built in ports on the great lakes.

The map files consist of several files all of which need to be exactly the same but are in different formats. If some island etc is slightly different between the differnt files it can cause problems. Therefore while I can start with Sengoku (which I have) I don't know what bugs with the various files have been found and fixed by MM. Therefore I suggest starting with MM which I know works and I believe is the same as Sengoku except for 3 little changes in Germany. Other wise we might be hunting down CTD problems - something we don't want to do.

I have actualy used the Sengoku map from about march 2007 to about september 2007 with no problems. So, IMO, sengoku map should not cause any CTD. This was distributed with the TN mod. I stopped using it because I saw no real point in having a non-vanilla map just for the sake of Japan. Having a vanilla map allowed users to add graphics mods like TOT and OldMap. I do however want a non-vanilla map If it adds enough content to make it worthwhile....

Originally Posted by 17blue17

Give me the go ahead to start with MM (they gave their ok) and I will add back my North America Changes (will be some work but can be done and I have the time). I will also make the Inca changes if you can get me the information.

Use which ever map you need to . the only requirement I have is that I will need to know which provinces MMG map has changed (compared to vanilla) other than Japan. Restoring TN so that it uses the Sengoku Japan provinces will take some time but I am familure with it so it will not be hard. Once I know which provinces MMG changed it will help me adjust TN accordingly.

I have already started work on the Inca provinces and I will try to get a draft made soon (within a day). There is not very much historical information about the Inca nations so mostly I will be going by what I need the provinces to look like in order to properly show the Inca nations as of 1453.

Originally Posted by 17blue17

Tell me one more time - do you or don't you want the great lakes - atlantic connection? Historically explorers such as the French traveled this route but I believe they had to carry thier boats overland for some sections which is hard to do in the game. So if you want an explorer to travel the paths of the French into central america then the connection is good. If you want to do it by land exploration which may not follow the great lakes than the connection is bad. Paradox defaulted to no connection. Of course the French also traveled down the Mississippi which in the game has to be done by land but mostly I beleive they started around the great lakes region. There were historical naval battles on the lakes but the ships were built in ports on the great lakes.

I think it would be best to keep the great lakes like it is in vanilla. If ships are allowed to travel freely into the great lakes it would make players think that there was rivers big enough to support the passage of the big naval ships which may very well be untrue historicaly for the time period.

Thank you for your commitment to making a map for TN . I greatly apreciate it.

I think it would be best to keep the great lakes like it is in vanilla. If ships are allowed to travel freely into the great lakes it would make players think that there was rivers big enough to support the passage of the big naval ships which may very well be untrue historicaly for the time period.

Thank you for your commitment to making a map for TN . I greatly apreciate it.

Actually the St. Lawerence river was very much so large enough to transport large ships. The biggest problem was that in this time the only way a ship could go from Lake Ontario to Lake Erie was by finding a way to go up the Niagara Falls, not a small feat for a ship of this time, or nowadays for that matter. Perhaps you could code in an event when you discover the Gulf of St. Lawerence (I think that's the province?) where you could pay a large amount of money to make a series of canals to connect the Great Lakes to the Atlantic. They also used to use the Erie Canal which connected the Great Lakes to the Hudson River I believe.

Actually the St. Lawerence river was very much so large enough to transport large ships. The biggest problem was that in this time the only way a ship could go from Lake Ontario to Lake Erie was by finding a way to go up the Niagara Falls, not a small feat for a ship of this time, or nowadays for that matter. Perhaps you could code in an event when you discover the Gulf of St. Lawerence (I think that's the province?) where you could pay a large amount of money to make a series of canals to connect the Great Lakes to the Atlantic. They also used to use the Erie Canal which connected the Great Lakes to the Hudson River I believe.

I tried something like this for the suez cannal. Problem is you can't stop an explorer from sliping through. If Paradox ever applied sea attrition to the AI then an event would work but for now only option is to delay all exploration game wide until the date the canal opens. I will leave the connection closed.

I have actualy used the Sengoku map from about march 2007 to about september 2007 with no problems. So, IMO, sengoku map should not cause any CTD. This was distributed with the TN mod. I stopped using it because I saw no real point in having a non-vanilla map just for the sake of Japan. Having a vanilla map allowed users to add graphics mods like TOT and OldMap. I do however want a non-vanilla map If it adds enough content to make it worthwhile....

MM added three very small square provinces in germany for imperial cities ( 1254 - Bremen, 1255 - Frankfurt, 1256 - Nürnberg) and I think their last draft modified portugal to make the shape more accurate and add a couple provinces.

If you want Sengoku map and believe it is stable then this is what I will do. I have Sengoku Mod 21.rar which I belive was the last released.

here is the .jpg file that I made a rough draft for the new Inca provinces:

if you have any questions please ask.

Would you not want to split the NE part of cuzco to add Machu Picchu? I understand this was a fairly important place for the Inca as they had to retreat there if cuzco was over run by an enemy? Always though it was strange not to have it on the map.

So 6 new provinces plus maybe Machu Picchu? If you want Machu P please draw it in as I need to know which provinces it should border. If you want it behind cuzco in current pti let me know but either way add it on your jpg if wanted.

Note on the borders - I don't have a lot of control over the exact shape of the boarders as the game kind of rounds things off as either square or round so it is really hard to make a curved line on a small province. Should be ok

If you want Sengoku map and believe it is stable then this is what I will do. I have Sengoku Mod 21.rar which I belive was the last released.

You could also take a look at Divide et Impera's map, which is based on Sakura's map but adds several provinces. I find it too cluttered for my tastes, but it adds several important provinces. Ideally, I'd like to see a map somewhere between Divide et Impera and Sakura's - one with another province in Kyushu and Shikoku, and perhaps one or two on Honshu, but not another 10!

You could also take a look at Divide et Impera's map, which is based on Sakura's map but adds several provinces. I find it too cluttered for my tastes, but it adds several important provinces. Ideally, I'd like to see a map somewhere between Divide et Impera and Sakura's - one with another province in Kyushu and Shikoku, and perhaps one or two on Honshu, but not another 10!

I dont really understand / feel comfortable with adding or changing coast lines, islands, or lakes. Changes to provinces inside of a continent are easy.

I will start with the Sengoku map which Darken is apparently comfortable with then if he wants existing provinces split up in Japan I can do this.

If you want Sengoku map and believe it is stable then this is what I will do. I have Sengoku Mod 21.rar which I belive was the last released.

I will start this afternoon.

This would be the best option IMO thanks alot Sengoku 2.1 is the latest version, so you are right.

Originally Posted by 17blue17

Would you not want to split the NE part of cuzco to add Machu Picchu? I understand this was a fairly important place for the Inca as they had to retreat there if cuzco was over run by an enemy? Always though it was strange not to have it on the map.

You are right. It is a very important city and I overlooked it. It should be added. Perhaps just cut cuzco in half or something. It may be better to place a vertical line down the center of cuzco to make the left part Cuzco and the right part Machu Pichu.

Originally Posted by 17blue17

So 6 new provinces plus maybe Machu Picchu? If you want Machu P please draw it in as I need to know which provinces it should border. If you want it behind cuzco in current pti let me know but either way add it on your jpg if wanted.

It should not be in the PTI IMO. PTI should remain unchanged in south america I think. Just cut cuzco province in half at some point maiking it into two provinces. I will trust your judgment

Originally Posted by 17blue17

Note on the borders - I don't have a lot of control over the exact shape of the boarders as the game kind of rounds things off as either square or round so it is really hard to make a curved line on a small province. Should be ok

well, things dont need to be exact, as even my red lines were mostly guesses based on the equador/peru border compared to EU3 map. as long as provinces are not exact sqaures or exact circles I am happy .

Originally Posted by 17blue17

I dont really understand / feel comfortable with adding or changing coast lines, islands, or lakes. Changes to provinces inside of a continent are easy.

I will start with the Sengoku map which Darken is apparently comfortable with then if he wants existing provinces split up in Japan I can do this.

Japan in the sengoku mod is much better than vanilla. I dont think we need more provinces than the Sengoku Japan. besides, this is partialy a tribute to Sakura anyway .

I have a little warning for you Darken about too many new/changed provinces: It will turn a lot of players away, but if you only do a few it will work out great. For example: Although MEIOU is amazing, I am scared of it since I got too used to the vanilla map. (Sorry Gigau) So, I would recommend going easy of changed provinces, and doing more adding provinces into former PTI.

Suggestions for Tribal Locations

As I mentioned in my earlier post the following are some possible suggestions for North American tribes:

With the help of some tribal names from Sapient Homo's New-World Nation's Mod as a starting point I did lots of internet searches last week and I have developed my own suggestions for tribal locations in North America (people could argue this all day long). Keep in mind it is rather hard as the tribes were forced to move around a lot over large distances. My suggestions are based upon what I think their location was when first encountered and or the area they had some impact. So maybe not their 1453 exact historical location. I can upload some flags for the ones you decide to use that I got off the internet. Province numbers for the new map follow each tribe ( you will probably do smaller areas than suggested except for the Sioux, Comanche, and Navajo). In some cases you already had these tribes but the new map allows them to be located in better positions:

I posted some naval information / suggestions in a thread marked Regional Units Project in the mod forum. You are welcome to use my suggestions if you want at some point in your mod.

Thanks

I am not sure how people feel about the accuracy of the EU3 ships. I have not payed much attention myself. I just wonder if it would be worth all the trouble of adding those changes. I do not doubt your work but I am curious as to how wrong paradox was about ships and how much of it you were able to fix.

I am not sure how people feel about the accuracy of the EU3 ships. I have not payed much attention myself. I just wonder if it would be worth all the trouble of adding those changes. I do not doubt your work but I am curious as to how wrong paradox was about ships and how much of it you were able to fix.

No pressure - I am ok if any mod wants to use the information but I just wanted to be nice and offer it to you specifically as we have worked together in the past and I felt bad not having posted the information for you first.

As far as changes I balanced the guns, speed, and start dates so that there is a more orderly and logical progression.

If you wanted to keep it simple and easy then just fine tune the existing units to match my revised stats (or download my revised unit using the link in the other thread). No graphics to add, no changes to localization - simple, easy. A few changes to enable dates in the naval.txt file and the revised stats for the units I posted. If you go this route then I suggest having the galleas use the stats of my Venetian War Galley. Also suggest having the existing war galleon use the average of the stats for the big ship galleons I posted.

If you wanted to add a unit I suggest the 74 gun two decker was fairly important.

No pressure - I am ok if any mod wants to use the information but I just wanted to be nice and offer it to you specifically as we have worked together in the past and I felt bad not having posted the information for you first.

As far as changes I balanced the guns, speed, and start dates so that there is a more orderly and logical progression.

If you wanted to keep it simple and easy then just fine tune the existing units to match my revised stats (or download my revised unit using the link in the other thread). No graphics to add, no changes to localization - simple, easy. A few changes to enable dates in the naval.txt file and the revised stats for the units I posted. If you go this route then I suggest having the galleas use the stats of my Venetian War Galley. Also suggest having the existing war galleon use the average of the stats for the big ship galleons I posted.

If you wanted to add a unit I suggest the 74 gun two decker was fairly important.

Either way no big deal to me - just wanted to be nice and offer.

Best Wishes

I apreciate you giving me one of the first chances .

I read some more about what you did and such. I like the fact that you took time to study the ships online in order to balance them. I understand that it cannont be 100% historical due to overlap of ships and game balance. I would like however to get as near to historical as is practicle (which seems like you did). I think that if I added your changes, I would do it in full, but i have a few questions.

With the changes you made (i didnt look at the stats yet, i will trust your judgement) how much do you think that naval battles will be changed? can you think of any situations that might be different?

So, We are not able to easily make new naval units for different religions/cultures/nations? I do not want to add more tech groups. If there is a way to improve ships throughout the whole world I think that would be far better than just European ship changes (which most or all natiosn use right?). Is there any way to make unique ships for each region without adding tech groups? could we perhaps add a line like 'technology_group = xxx' in the ship files [common/units/](like the infantry have)?

There is currently no way to do by tech group or region or country. I understand the same ships are used by all subject to reaching the necessary tech level. I posted a request to allow more flexibility but it may be igorned.
The proposed changes would just add new ships for everyone once they hit the required tech levels in the naval.txt mod.

The changes mainly add more flavor by having a lot more ship types over time. I tried to maintain balance by having historical ships by era. For example a big impact is in 1530 when the galleon era starts. I also had more powerful galleys, transports, and light ships also show up at the same time to maintain balance - but only if it made sense historically. In other words I built the new ship types first - then tried to line them up within historical reason.

At this point I have built the changes for standard NA 2.2 and consist of the new units, one new localization file, some new amins, and a modified naval.txt file. In other words the work is all done for NA 2.2. All I would need to do for you is to see what is non standard about your naval.txt file.

If you want to include the work for your mod then I can upload the finished work to you by the end of the day.

If you are not interested then let me know and I will post in the forum a version for standard NA 2.2 and if requested versions for other mods - just as an add on option like you do for your map (old map or regular).

Of course it goes with out saying that it is your mod and you can change what ever you want. All I request is that you give credit to me and to the two inactive mods whoose work I started with - namely Dougs Naval Mod and the Combo mod. Also mention that Merlins ship graphics are included.

There is currently no way to do by tech group or region or country. I understand the same ships are used by all subject to reaching the necessary tech level. I posted a request to allow more flexibility but it may be igorned.
The proposed changes would just add new ships for everyone once they hit the required tech levels in the naval.txt mod.

The changes mainly add more flavor by having a lot more ship types over time. I tried to maintain balance by having historical ships by era. For example a big impact is in 1530 when the galleon era starts. I also had more powerful galleys, transports, and light ships also show up at the same time to maintain balance - but only if it made sense historically. In other words I built the new ship types first - then tried to line them up within historical reason.

At this point I have built the changes for standard NA 2.2 and consist of the new units, one new localization file, some new amins, and a modified naval.txt file. In other words the work is all done for NA 2.2. All I would need to do for you is to see what is non standard about your naval.txt file.

If you want to include the work for your mod then I can upload the finished work to you by the end of the day.

If you are not interested then let me know and I will post in the forum a version for standard NA 2.2 and if requested versions for other mods - just as an add on option like you do for your map (old map or regular).

Of course it goes with out saying that it is your mod and you can change what ever you want. All I request is that you give credit to me and to the two inactive mods whoose work I started with - namely Dougs Naval Mod and the Combo mod. Also mention that Merlins ship graphics are included.

Best Wishes

well, I suppose that until we can find a solution for the other tech groups, at least with your solution we can have a improved system.

because I have made many localisation and other changes in the current TN version (7.39), I think it would be best for me to mix your latest version of your naval work with 7.39. So, if you can provide me with your latest work that would be great. I will add a section in the manual and special thanks thread to give proper credit.

the changes sound easy but my main concern is what your changes were in the naval.txt file. My changes were mostly just average years but I may have changed some building dates. So all I would realy need to do is take your file and place my dates and building dates into it I think.

so. in conclusion, lets give this a try and we can see how it all works out in 7.39 which will probably be released within a week also, I dont realy know anythign about ship or army graphics unfortunately

the changes sound easy but my main concern is what your changes were in the naval.txt file. My changes were mostly just average years but I may have changed some building dates. So all I would realy need to do is take your file and place my dates and building dates into it I think.

As I said the dates are a big part of what I have modded including

1) change the date for the shipyard
2) add the new ships including my revised ship dates
3) replace the ship shock values.

If dates are all that you have changed then I will send my naval.txt file as is.

Please

try it as I send it

I think you will like it

and you really don't need the hasle of all that editing

As far as the graphics - all that is needed is to put in the instructions that if they want to use Merlins ship graphics they will need to download his mod and over write the normal vanilla files. My changes work fine as is with the standard vanilla files (Merlins mod is not needed but would be a nice change if the user wants but really no change from your mods point of view)

One note on the localization - please take the heavy_frigate from my new localization and replace the standard one in text.csv.

I will upload the files late tonight - same place as usual - will call it NavalMOD. All you will need to do is copy the new files into your mod. The work will all be done.