THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)

I, myself, was 5-0 in my earliest Met games attended, and, yeah, I thought I had some abstract power over that poor late-seventies edition of the team. But sometime after that dream crashed with my first loss ("Where's everybody going? This can't happen. Surely there will be an appeal!"), I lost track of the Mets record in front of my own two eyes, and I'm left just a touch jealous when annoying ubergeeks start sentences with such phrases as that which gives this thread it's title.

Anyhow, I bring this up relevant to an exchange I've been having with Greg at "Faith and Fear in Flushing, reposted below minus my typos. Greg pretty much wins for being the better writer. Confident, too.

Greg: It has come to my attention that the third game I ever attended, on June 28, 1975, was delayed by rain for nearly an hour-and-a-half at its start. I remember leaving, at my sister's behest (she was sure they wouldn't resume playing), during that delay but have always recalled the tarp coming out in the middle of the second inning, meaning I had to have witnessed at least a little of that affair. But what I'm remembering being stopped by the umpires, I now have to admit, was the Old-Timer's Game that preceded the "real" game. That's what was interrupted by rain. Apparently I never saw any of the Mets-Phillies action in person that afternoon. The question then becomes, should it still count as part of my Log? In 1999, when you and I attended the twinight doubleheader in which Ventura hit two grand slams, we missed most of the opener. I decided then that as long as I see one pitch of a game, I can say I saw the game. Since that ruling came 24 years after the game I didn't see, I've decided 6/28/75 will remain on the books, grandfathered in prior to the '99 decision, as a game I went to. I did go to it, after all. Thus, today was indeed my 300th game, 169th win and I can continue to say -- now and forever -- that I was at Shea Stadium at least once when Randy Tate started. It's always been a point of pride for me. (I'm not a particularly prideful person.)

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Re: One for Alex, 300 for Meby Edgy DC at 02:22PM (EDT) on Jul 25, 2005I'm really sorry. I'm not usually so ungenerous. But I'm not ready to give credit for such games.

The way I look at it is this, why give the spectator credit for games, wins, or losses that you won't give the pitcher credit for? If you're not still watching at least until the game is official (visiting fifth with the home team ahead, home fifth with the visitors ahead, for the uninitiated), you don't get credit for the game.

As for wins and losses, look at it this way. If the pitcher entered when you arrived and left when you left, would he get the win or loss? If the lead changes hands after you leave, you shouldn't get such credit, even if the team who was winning when you left relinquishes the lead, then reclaims it to win.

Yeah, such a scoring system gives you more games than wins or losses, but no-decisions are a part of the game, and a good fan like yourself is probably completing more games than Chief Bender.

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Chief Bender of the Rulesby Greg at 02:49PM (EDT) on Jul 25, 2005You present some intriguing if stringent rules, and I will no doubt continue to bend them to my own shortsighted statistical satisfaction. Perhaps it's a matter of semantics: The Mets are 169-131 at Shea Stadium in games for which I have passed through the turnstiles and taken my seat in order to attend. That would include the game of June 28, 1975 when, at the age of 12, the decision to remain or vacate was taken out of my hands by the umpires...I mean, my older sister. I was, however, announced into the game, as it were, even if I never actually came to bat.

I've never been one of these people who insists you can't miss the first pitch or the last out. If one can at all help it, sure, get there early and stay there late. But stuff happens. And sometimes it's just good judgment to leave. On September 26, 2000, for example, your faithful bloggers scrammed out of Shea before the ninth inning so as not to witness the Atlanta Braves clinch their sixth consecutive N.L. East title, 7-1. We can say we were there the night they won it, but to quote Aunt Sassy of "Room & Bored" fame, "I don't need to SEE that!"

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Re: Chief Bender of the Rulesby Edgy DC at 03:01PM (EDT) on Jul 25, 2005Well, that last example doesn't really apply. Certainly, one would understand your reasons for leaving that game, but should the Mets have blown your minds, scored ten in the eighth, and come back to win that one, do you really think you would deserve one in the win column for yourself?

It's like win-win for you then. There should be some risk in leaving, even if --- as in the case cited --- it's a good risk.

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My Win Will Go Onby Greg at 03:11PM (EDT) on Jul 25, 2005Excellent ethical question. If the Mets had come back and built another ten-run inning in another remarkable comeback against the Braves in the same season that they had done it once, I'm fairly sure I would've died from shock listening to it on my Walkman on the train home before ever having the opportunity to fill in the details of this now twice-in-a-lifetime event in said Log. So, to answer your question, yes, I would deserve to cite it as a win because who would be small enough to begrudge the dead a little after-the-fact happiness?

Yancy Street Gang Jul 25 2005 04:25 PM

I was at Shea on October 25, 1986, and I vividly remember seeing people streaming towards the exit ramps when the Red Sox scored their second run in the top of the 10th.

Some of them were probably able to rush back to the stands when the crowd started getting noisy in the bottom of the inning. But I'm sure there were many who were too late, and were in the parking lot when Carter, Mitchell, Knight, and Mookie were creating a legend.

I don't know how they live with themselves.

Elster88 Jul 25 2005 04:26 PM

They probably lie and say they were there in their seats the entire time.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2005 04:30 PM

And those who stayed probably would think it unfair if those who left scratched a win off for themselves.

KC Jul 25 2005 04:32 PM

I don't remember what my record is for 2005. I wish I kept track of the hundredsof games I saw.

Elster88 Jul 25 2005 04:34 PM

I don't see how anyone could leave a game early under any circumstances. My one early leave was the second game of a double header. I left that one because I had school the next day, and my dad said so.

I might even stick around and watch the opposing team celebrate, even if it is celebrating a championship against my team. I've always wanted to see one of those pile-ons.

I have heard disturbing tales from people who caught Game 5 in 2000 though.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2005 04:39 PM

Excellent points. I posted on:

]Let's look at it from the othere side, based on an example my friend Yancy offers. It's October 25, 1986. As Keith Hernandez is making out, the guy in the seat next to you sighs and says "I'm not watching this" and heads tor the exit.

You stick it out for the thrill of a lifetime, while Johnny Queasy-Stomache never makes it back to his seat.

You see him the at the game next day and he says, "Wasn't that great?! My God, someday I'll tell my grandkids I was there!"

Even if you don't say it, aren't you thinking, "But you weren't; I was, but you weren't"?

Carter-Mitcherll-Knight-Mookie got Mr. Heartless off the hook for a loss, but did not get him a win.

Nymr83 Jul 26 2005 01:14 AM

i'm 5-1 this year, dont know my all time record, i've been going regularly since at least '96.

edit- since i adamantly refuse to leave a game that has not officially ended i've nevr had the partial game problem, but IF i did i'd say:if you leave when they are winning and they win you get a Wif you leave when they are winning and they lose you get nothingif you leave when they are losing and they win you get nothingif you leave when they are losing and they lose you get a L

smg58 Jul 26 2005 10:10 AM

I went to two games in 1999, their best recent year:

One they lost 10-1 to the D-Backs,

and the other they lost 16-0 to the Braves.

I'm amazed they still let me in.

ScarletKnight41 Jul 26 2005 10:11 AM

D-Dad and I are 3-3 on the year so far. MK wasn't with us for our two losses against the Phillies (one at Shea and one in Philly) so he's 3-1 on the season.

The other two kids are 1-1 - they only deigned to join us for our two games in DC.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 10:22 AM

]Re: Re: My Win Will Go Onby Greg at 05:27PM (EDT) on Jul 25, 2005As Felix said to Oscar, it makes a great DEAL of difference. The circumstance, that is. The Mets-Braves game alluded to earlier was, by group consensus, a done deal. Seeing the Braves humiliate the Mets was (and, sigh, remains) a common enough phenomenon. Plus the Mets were on the verge of clinching the Wild Card. We knew we'd be back at Shea in about 21 hours and several times in October. Sometimes you have to reserve your strength and your sanity. (And I'm fairly certain there was a train at Woodside hanging in the balance.)

The Mets being in the World Series, however, had only occurred three times to that point, 10/25-26/86 (it was after midnight). You can't leave before it's over. You just can't. I'd have said the same thing about the next World Series the Mets were in 14 years later when that result loomed starkly inevitable and unpleasant. This isn't a matter of hoping lightning will strike. This is about staying because you stay no matter how much it hurts. This was not one game in the course of many. This was the end (or potential end) of the World Series. You stay. At moments like those, you don't even think about your record.

Greg just switches from logical appeal to emotional to humerous.

What makes him an excellent writer makes him no fun to debate. I think I'll go write Jon Heyman again.