In the bone yard wrote:One problem is the dictionary we use to translate words. Different dictionaries will have different words for a tibetan word. Maybe a word that defines the meaning was not chosen properly.We translate meaning, not words!

So what happens when a translator attempts to translate tantra when he doesn't have the realization (meaning) of what he's translating?How is he or she supposed to translate the meaning? ..."Do not associate with foolish beings."...

Good points but it's from sutra (actually shastra) not tantra.

And anyway we discuss the translations and the meaning.

Tibetan isn't Hebrew where really alternative meanings are in fact derivable from the text. In many cases people are debating alternative words for essentially the same semantic value in a translation. Of course I'm not on a translation committee, have not seen really difficult problems yet and am still just beginning study of Tibetan.

I have never forgotten this story from the biography I read in my teens of the Trapp Family Singers. They arrived in America with very little knowledge of English, and set about reading various books to sharpen their skills. Idioms, colloquialisms, etc., are difficult to translate, as one example from their story shows. The phrase they didn't understand was "The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak." They dutifully consulted their dictionaries, and came up with "The ghost wanted to, but the meat was soft."

I have never forgotten this story from the biography I read in my teens of the Trapp Family Singers. They arrived in America with very little knowledge of English, and set about reading various books to sharpen their skills. Idioms, colloquialisms, etc., are difficult to translate, as one example from their story shows. The phrase they didn't understand was "The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak." They dutifully consulted their dictionaries, and came up with "The ghost wanted to, but the meat was soft."

Translations! Be careful.

But the immediate solution would have been to just to look up Matthew 26:41 in the Luther Bible.

In the bone yard wrote:One problem is the dictionary we use to translate words. Different dictionaries will have different words for a tibetan word. Maybe a word that defines the meaning was not chosen properly.We translate meaning, not words!

So what happens when a translator attempts to translate tantra when he doesn't have the realization (meaning) of what he's translating?How is he or she supposed to translate the meaning? ..."Do not associate with foolish beings."...

Good points but it's from sutra (actually shastra) not tantra.

And anyway we discuss the translations and the meaning.

Tibetan isn't Hebrew where really alternative meanings are in fact derivable from the text. In many cases people are debating alternative words for essentially the same semantic value in a translation. Of course I'm not on a translation committee, have not seen really difficult problems yet and am still just beginning study of Tibetan.

Kirt

My comments regarding tantra translations aren't directed toward the passage. It's extra that you don't have to pay for. I see no reason why we can't use alternate words for sutra. Translations of sutra (causation), not too much harm can come of it.

Not to prove a point by any means, but I have seen the passage (or the meaning) used in tantric teaching.

I have never forgotten this story from the biography I read in my teens of the Trapp Family Singers. They arrived in America with very little knowledge of English, and set about reading various books to sharpen their skills. Idioms, colloquialisms, etc., are difficult to translate, as one example from their story shows. The phrase they didn't understand was "The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak." They dutifully consulted their dictionaries, and came up with "The ghost wanted to, but the meat was soft."