The Unofficial Northampton Saints Supporters' Message Board

given the start I think 50-21 wasn't actually that bad, I was fearing much worse. Positives, Tupai did ok and looks like he will be a decent player in a couple of years. Proctor played well again and as WP said above Ludlam is some player now. On the back of that we kept battling away which is a real good sign, would have been easy for heads to drop.

No excuses as we were 2nd best by a country mile but the officials were appalling.

Boyd might have to rethink his line about confidence in anyone who is selected. Some were clearly playing way above their level.

I was impressed by both Paul Hill and Lewis Bean. They hung in there well.
Big T is really beginning to work hard. OK sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but by golly he is getting stuck in. Loved seeing him slot in at No. 8!
Not as enthused over Tupai as WP is. Reminded me of Lee Dickson in his meerkat days. Think Mitchell has a quicker, faster and more accurate pass.

Still, let's hope no nasty injury surprises and that the players who have had time off, are fully rested and recovered. Anyone for Harry?

Not impressed by our defence. I know we have just lost our lead defence coach and had to find a replacement, but we do seem to lose our shape very quickly.

Scrum was solid - Fergurson seems to be making progress there and we won our own lineouts.

Same issues as all season - lineout maul not well enough organised so not an effective weapon and coughing up the ball in the 22 is fatal. Get those things right and we would be competitive against anyone.

At full strength we might have got a bonus point but Leinster must be favourites to win this competition, they were ruthless in the first 10 minutes and then let us run ourselves ragged against their defensive wall again.

Tupai is 19(?). I thought that he was very good and his passes were just as accurate as Mitchell's. He is unlikely to play against a team quite like Leinster for some time and the experience will have done him no end of good. He certainly didn't do anything wrong and he did a lot of things right.

Leinster are on a different level, we were not that bad, biggest errors for me were missed tackles and no follow up chase on our kicks. We were second best today to a very good Leinster team. It's not all over yet but I want us to focus on the league not Europe this season.

Young lads fronted up today and we should be proud of the direction our team is heading.

you said we were gonna get relegated last year - yep after some poor performances early on. Donít believe I was the only person happiy proved wrong on this.

only post when we are losing

Very sad individual, support the club or donít[/quote]

WP, do you know me? Have we met? No! Yet if I choose to post or not you seem to take specific issue with me. No idea why. The fact you have resorted to name calling speaks more about you than me Iíd suggest.

Tupai was fine and survived this baptism of fire with credit. His pass slowed down as the game went on, which I assume to be fatigue rather than anything deliberate, so when Mitchell came on (and also did well), he will naturally have looked faster. I also thought Sleightholme caught the eye and did some good things.

For me still far too many errors from us and a real lack of accuracy in the red zone. And a real disappointment not to get the fourth try. Oh, and what has happened to our defence, especially 5 yards out?

Officials were mostly fine apart from the obvious lack of advantage given to us for their first try, Gibson clearly blocking for Sleightholme's try, and the time it took to check that Bigger had been tackled off the ball / that it had been knocked on by blue / that the knockon was picked up offside (I really thought it wasn't going to get checked!). Thought their sixth try came from a knock on too - Big T ripped the ball downward which hit a blue chest and went forward. In the grand scheme of things, none of these were really game changing but frustrating to see all the same.

And despite seeing that box kicking to Leinster didn't work last week, we continued to box kick more than usual this week against the same opposition.

Hopefully we'll start to see some of our injuries returning over the festive period and go into 2020 with some good news and good results!

But not too sure where we go from here in Europe this season. We can still finish second in the group and achieve 19 points which, if they come and are enough to get through to the next round, would most likely lead to another away game to Leinster. We may be able to field a largely different team by then, but injuries may still be a worry and such a game could potentially derail the Premiership game too. Perhaps go big against Treviso for confidence at home but not worry too much about the Lyon game?

[quote Coltnet]you said we were gonna get relegated last year - yep after some poor performances early on. Donít believe I was the only person happiy proved wrong on this.

only post when we are losing

Very sad individual, support the club or donít[/quote]

WP, do you know me? Have we met? No! Yet if I choose to post or not you seem to take specific issue with me. No idea why. The fact you have resorted to name calling speaks more about you than me Iíd suggest.[/quote]

Because you are literally the only poster who only posts when we lose. I canít remember ONE positive post from you despite being top of the league playing great rugby.

It is frankly really weird. Feel free to complain about performances and criticise some wins if you want, but why only post when we lose?

[quote Coltnet]you said we were gonna get relegated last year - yep after some poor performances early on. Donít believe I was the only person happiy proved wrong on this.

only post when we are losing

Very sad individual, support the club or donít[/quote]

WP, do you know me? Have we met? No! Yet if I choose to post or not you seem to take specific issue with me. No idea why. The fact you have resorted to name calling speaks more about you than me Iíd suggest.[/quote]

I recorded the match as out earlier - only just finished watching it and looked at posts on the match . I would have guaranteed negative comments from 3 posters who find it very difficult to post any positive comment on the Saints and usually are particularly verbose when we lose and mainly silent when we win .Suprisingly ( ha ha ) Coltnet you have fully met my expectations. Only 2 more to go.

So maybe to take some heat out of the last few posts but I thought Paul Hill and Api were superb today.

Also but I thought that this competition was intended to be a Club competition so I fail to see how Ireland are allowed to masquerade as Leinster in this completion? Totally against what I understood this competition was all about.

Gibson was injured ended playing with 14
Not sure if some of Connors passing was accurate as some say.
Ollie missed a couple of tackles as did others.
Hope for the injuries to recover to have a chance of beating Sale next week

Boyd is in his second year
I expect we will lose a good few players end of this season and see some quality join to cover deficiencies

Iím sure everyone has their opinion on positions that need reinforcing but we canít change mid season[/quote]

Unfortunately Boyd has already
said recruitment for next season is virtually finished[/quote]

Hi Tedge

I may have got it wrong but when they said recruitment was done for next year I thought they had agreed deals with new players but they where yet to be announced[/quote]

If we donít get a couple new forwards to offer different selection options dependant on the opposition, weíve gone mad! Gotta meet fire with fire when you play these big boys. Shall we convert Naiyarovoro to 8?

I have to say that I was so impressed with Api. He has turned into some player. His work rate today was excellent. If he wasn't carrying he was clearing out. Tackling powerfully (for the most part). Deserves his starting spot at the moment.

Thought Tupai did well too.

That commentary on C4 was horrendous - you'd be mistaken in thinking it was Irish television. I think they only mentioned saints once or twice.

Boyd is in his second year
I expect we will lose a good few players end of this season and see some quality join to cover deficiencies

Iím sure everyone has their opinion on positions that need reinforcing but we canít change mid season[/quote]

Unfortunately Boyd has already
said recruitment for next season is virtually finished[/quote]

Hi Tedge

I may have got it wrong but when they said recruitment was done for next year I thought they had agreed deals with new players but they where yet to be announced[/quote]

If we donít get a couple new forwards to offer different selection options dependant on the opposition, weíve gone mad! Gotta meet fire with fire when you play these big boys. Shall we convert Naiyarovoro to 8?[/quote]

What I think he said at the STH Forum was that recruitment for next season was pretty much done with the possible exception of "a couple of forwards". Since then he has signed Matavesi, although he might be an unexpected injury cover, and most of us assumed that one of the recruits might be Kpoku from Sarries, as yet unconfirmed and more recently Eroni Mawi but also unconfirmed.

Looking at the positives, I was impressed with Tupai. He was probably under orders not to try anything fancy but just provide a crisp service to his fly-half. He did this admirably until perhaps fatigue became an issue. Well done!

I thought you were unlucky not to get the fourth try bonus point towards the end of the match yesterday. That extra point would certainly have helped your chances of qualification for the QFs.

Given that Lyon were beaten by Treviso yesterday, there is every chance that they will now throw in the towel meaning that Saints have a good chance of beating both Lyon and Treviso with bonus points and ending the group stage on 19 points. Your reward for this would be to play Leinster again in the Aviva stadium in a QF.

A small group of Saints fans made it over to the Aviva stadium yesterday and they certainly made themselves heard at certain key stages in the match which was very heart warming.

If you don't make it through to the QFs we wont be meeting again and in this case best of luck in the Premiership.

Leinster LadyI thought you were unlucky not to get the fourth try bonus point towards the end of the match yesterday. That extra point would certainly have helped your chances of qualification for the QFs.
Given that Lyon were beaten by Treviso yesterday, there is every chance that they will now throw in the towel meaning that Saints have a good chance of beating both Lyon and Treviso with bonus points and ending the group stage on 19 points. Your reward for this would be to play Leinster again in the Aviva stadium in a QF.

A small group of Saints fans made it over to the Aviva stadium yesterday and they certainly made themselves heard at certain key stages in the match which was very heart warming.

If you don't make it through to the QFs we wont be meeting again and in this case best of luck in the Premiership.

Thank you for your kind words
It was a sobering experience
Good luck for the rest of the competition

Leinster LadyI thought you were unlucky not to get the fourth try bonus point towards the end of the match yesterday. That extra point would certainly have helped your chances of qualification for the QFs.
Given that Lyon were beaten by Treviso yesterday, there is every chance that they will now throw in the towel meaning that Saints have a good chance of beating both Lyon and Treviso with bonus points and ending the group stage on 19 points. Your reward for this would be to play Leinster again in the Aviva stadium in a QF.

A small group of Saints fans made it over to the Aviva stadium yesterday and they certainly made themselves heard at certain key stages in the match which was very heart warming.

If you don't make it through to the QFs we wont be meeting again and in this case best of luck in the Premiership.

Thanks Leinster Lady,

To be honest I am not sure it would be a good thing for us to qualify for the QF's. I do not think we have the resources for it, sadly.

Whiston SaintSo it took Lol 71 minutes to reveal that we have half a team out there and an important block of 3 Premiership games coming up.

That is incredibly disrespectfully to the half of the team that you donít consider are good enough to be called Saints. I am sure all those young men who have dedicated a large part of their lives to be good enough to get professional contracts at a top rugby club love to be told that they are not considered good enough to even count as part of the team.

Whiston SaintSo it took Lol 71 minutes to reveal that we have half a team out there and an important block of 3 Premiership games coming up.

That is incredibly disrespectfully to the half of the team that you donít consider are good enough to be called Saints. I am sure all those young men who have dedicated a large part of their lives to be good enough to get professional
contracts at a top rugby club love to be told that they are not considered good enough to even count as part of the team.

I know, how dare we compare Coles to Lawes. Or Tupai to Reinach. They wouldnít of made any difference, what does experience and international calibre matter in games like this anyway? Damn ignorant narrow minded disrespectful fans. **

People here are getting far too hot under the collar over these two losses

We are even though most of us expected the outcome. I suppose what is difficult to come to terms with is the confirmation of just how far short Saints are in a competiton of this quality. It is especially hard for those of us of a certain age who readily recall Saints at their peaks being equal to any side in Europe. Add to that the raised expectations caused by a marked improvement in performances at domestic level and we are brought down to earth with a bump. Perhaps the bitterest pill of all to swallow is the realisation that, for reasons all outlined many times, there seems to be absolutely b.....r all we can do about it !

In what other competitions do teams from the same group play in the QF?

Madness

Iíve lost count of the number of times weíve gone through a European pool and end up going through to the quarters as runners up only to get an away game against our own pool winner. Odds massively stacked against team in that position as they will have invariably already lost against their pool winner if not twice

People here are getting far too hot under the collar over these two losses

We are even though most of us expected the outcome. I suppose what is difficult to come to terms with is the confirmation of just how far short Saints are in a competiton of this quality. It is especially hard for those of us of a certain age who readily recall Saints at their peaks being equal to any side in Europe. Add to that the raised expectations caused by a marked improvement in performances at domestic level and we are brought down to earth with a bump. Perhaps the bitterest pill of all to swallow is the realisation that, for reasons all outlined many times, there seems to be absolutely b.....r all we can do about it !

It is all about perspective, money talks. We have different league structures, different funding and funding rules.

You just have to mentally adjust to the fact that we will only win the Heineken Cup if we have one season where we play out of our skin every single game and get some luck.

If Iím honest Iíd rather not qualify for the QFís - it will be a distraction to our main priority of top 2 in the Prem and beating Ex in the final next June!

Disappointed by the negativity above regarding yesterdayís performance - what did anyone expect - Saints 2nd XV against an Ireland XV and probably the best team in Europe right now. I thought the Leinster defence was immense - Big T is unplayable in the Prem but was very well managed by Leinster. OK, our error count was high but many of our team were playing at a level that they simply havenít experienced before.

Thought Tupai did well yesterday. I think weíre well stocked at 9 in the event that Cobus does leave. Also thought the scrum did really well over the 2 games.

It is hugely tempting to start complaining about uneven playing fields having just been thumped by Leinster twice in eight days. However, we all know how things are these days and whinging about it amongst ourselves will not change anything. The only English team capable of challenging Leinster are our 'friends' at Allinaz Park and we all know about their recent issues.

Simple fact is that Saints always get turned over badly at home by at least one team every European season since, I believe, 2010-11. Until we win all the pool matches at the Gardens it will always be an uphill task.

If Sarries or Leinster continue to win the European Cup every year because of their 'advantages', the whole competition begins to become devalued rather like Celtic winning the Scottish Premiership or Lewis Hamilton winning in F1 - after a while it becomes a case of 'so what' !

Iím sure money is A big part of the difference
However much you spend doesnít mean you donít knock on, tackle high, miss tackles, clear the breakdown, throw lineouts accurately, show aggression , play a structured defensive line ( Leinster cracked is open by playing inside ball - where was our backrow? ) could go on

It is work in progress and the improvements are happening but we still shoot our selves in the foot with basic mistakes
Particular when we play clubs like Leinster
Perhaps itís all in the mind

In what other competitions do teams from the same group play in the QF?

Madness

Same reason that in the Premiership play offs 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd. Being the ďbestĒ qualifier gives you the privilege of playing the ďworst/ weakestĒ qualifier. ďRank has itís privilegesĒ as a senior manager once told me wanting to put me in my place (he didnít). It would be unfortunate if we did qualify as the last place team and did end up having to play them again. For me it not about playing them again the the QF, Iím just fed up at continually having to play them in Europe, be a change to play say Connacht for once and not because they arenít so good as Leinster. Just be good to play other teams. We ended up playing against Castres for year on year, that was a bore too for me.

On yesterday we all knew weíd be in with a serious chance of a tonking, weíd debated it all week. Well, no surprise was it? It was great to score 3 tries. 2 tries better than last week! Great experience for some of the younger players. Saving some of the more senior players and giving them rest and a chance to recover a bit. We got nailed, most expected it, I certainly did. Weíre still in this. We can beat Benny with a 5 to get 14 and we have a shot at the QFís. If we beat Benetton and lose to Lyon weíll probably come 2nd in our group but probably wonít qualify. Actually I hope that this is the case so we can rest up a bit and go for the Premiership. But at the end of it all it wouldnít surprise me if we do qualify, draw Leinster away and beat them! Then the tune of the Leinster v Saints thread will be different wonít it?

It will never happen of course but one year as an experiment with no seedings would be fascinating. The cream will always come to the top but what price a pool group of Leinster, Munster, Clermont and Saracens ! Ditto Wimbledon - Federer v Nadal on the first day !

People here are getting far too hot under the collar over these two losses[/quote]

We are even though most of us expected the outcome. I suppose what is difficult to come to terms with is the confirmation of just how far short Saints are in a competiton of this quality. It is especially hard for those of us of a certain age who readily recall Saints at their peaks being equal to any side in Europe. Add to that the raised expectations caused by a marked improvement in performances at domestic level and we are brought down to earth with a bump. Perhaps the bitterest pill of all to swallow is the realisation that, for reasons all outlined many times, there seems to be absolutely b.....r all we can do about it ![/quote]

It is all about perspective, money talks. We have different league structures, different funding and funding rules.

exactly right. Quite simply it isn't a level playing field, an alternative to breaching the salary rules would be if relegation from the Prem was scrapped, and that league regarded as a second priority, then carefully manage the squad so that a full strength team is only fielded during European matches. To extract positives I expect the management will be picking up learning points from the last two matches, sometimes you need to take a step back to move forward, the tricky part is keeping spirits high. I very much am holding the faith and believe that we will be top of the domestic tree this year. COYS!

Boyd has Saints now where Leinster were in 2013/14. the IRFU change in policy to stop contributing to foreign player salaries, and invest instead in the provincial academies is beginning to reap dividends, with Leinster out in front. There are now 80 players going through the academies each year - on a 3-year cycle, with the better ones getting game opportunities with the senior squad.

12 are regular current Ireland squad players allowing that J McGrath, Jo Ryan, Scannell, Herring, Kleyn, O'Mahony, Stander, Murray, Marmion, Carty, Farrell, Aki, Earls, Stockdale, Conway all play at other provinces, so Leinster is not quite the Ireland XV. But obviously, given the smaller number of teams then inevitably you get a greater concentration of capped players in the teams, with Leinster to the fore.

It's also noticeable about the proportion of Ireland Qualified Players in the provincial teams given the quota restrictions on foreign players in their squads. Munster, Leinster and Ulster have over 90% of their senior squads as Ireland Qualified Players. The Premiership average is 67%. I get the impression that Boyd wants to change that over the next 2-3 seasons and build/develop domestic talent.

Aberavon WizardIt will never happen of course but one year as an experiment with no seedings would be fascinating. The cream will always come to the top but what price a pool group of Leinster, Munster, Clermont and Saracens ! Ditto Wimbledon - Federer v Nadal on the first day !

A halfway step here might be to draw teams according to seeding but not worry about separating those from the same country. Munster-Leinster or Saints-Tigers would be incredibly tasty back-to-back group fixtures that are currently impossible and very unlikely under current rules.

If anyone wants to feel a teeny bit better about yesterday, have a look at Clermont v Bath - BP try scored by Clermont on 20 mins.
Currently 40-14, just on half-time - although the last pass for Bath's second try just now was forward.
Might be a long second half for Bath.

SaintMaulAlso has a thread on this forum ever hit 10,000 views because the views for this thread at the time of posting have already exceeded 9,500?
St Marlowe predicted the demise of this forum when he stepped down as a moderator a few years back. So it's good to see the forum growing in popularity if anything, with lots of free debate.

Oy
No politics
Next thing you know there will be talk of cliques
And St Ed will be back administering to the ill informed

In what other competitions do teams from the same group play in the QF?

Madness

Same reason that in the Premiership play offs 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd. Being the ďbestĒ qualifier gives you the privilege of playing the ďworst/ weakestĒ qualifier. ďRank has itís privilegesĒ as a senior manager once told me wanting to put me in my place (he didnít). It would be unfortunate if we did qualify as the last place team and did end up having to play them again. For me it not about playing them again the the QF, Iím just fed up at continually having to play them in Europe, be a change to play say Connacht for once and not because they arenít so good as Leinster. Just be good to play other teams. We ended up playing against Castres for year on year, that was a bore too for me.

On yesterday we all knew weíd be in with a serious chance of a tonking, weíd debated it all week. Well, no surprise was it? It was great to score 3 tries. 2 tries better than last week! Great experience for some of the younger players. Saving some of the more senior players and giving them rest and a chance to recover a bit. We got nailed, most expected it, I certainly did. Weíre still in this. We can beat Benny with a 5 to get 14 and we have a shot at the QFís. If we beat Benetton and lose to Lyon weíll probably come 2nd in our group but probably wonít qualify. Actually I hope that this is the case so we can rest up a bit and go for the Premiership. But at the end of it all it wouldnít surprise me if we do qualify, draw Leinster away and beat them! Then the tune of the Leinster v Saints thread will be different wonít it?

Of course itís about seeding but IMHO you shouldnít be able to play a team from your group. The logic is simple too, not just that itís boring playing the same side 3 times (the governing body may have forgotten that this is a spectator sport) but also weíve been in a group with one of the top 2 sides. That therefore made it harder for us to qualify and as such should be adjusted.

It happens in other competitions but this is rugby which is still backward in some areas.

SaintMaulAlso has a thread on this forum ever hit 10,000 views because the views for this thread at the time of posting have already exceeded 9,500?
St Marlowe predicted the demise of this forum when he stepped down as a moderator a few years back. So it's good to see the forum growing in popularity if anything, with lots of free debate.

Oy
No politics
Next thing you know there will be talk of cliques
And St Ed will be back administering to the ill informed

I rewatched the game and whilst I donít think it would ultimately have changed the final result we were seriously hard done to by a poor refereeing team who were only looking for infringing from one side and it wasnít Leinster. There were at least half a dozen really bad/missed decisions. Based on the laws Leinster should have seen 2 cards - off the ball tackle on Biggar and a shoulder charge to head in ruck from Ryan. We need to be more clinical in the red zone and that has to be the big takeaway for us. Like I said I donít think it would have ultimately changed the result however they caused momentum swings. Onwards and upwards for the next tranche of Prem fixtures. Target has to be at least 2 from 3 wins.

Aside from the result, I thought for the most part, our young players showed what potential they have. They never gave up when it would have been totally understandable to have let their heads drop, especially after the first 2 tries.

Then there were the senior players that showed their class. I thought Biggar, Proctor & Big T were immense, but you can't do it on your own. I don't know if having the full first choice side available would have made much of a difference though.

I was a little unsure why we had to play the end with only 14. We saw Bean being refused when he looked like he was coming back on. What was the reason for that? Because he came off for a tactical substitution?

Overall, proud of the team and i think we'll learn from the experiences and get better as a result.

Other than that, a huge thanks to all the Leinster fans that we met. Everyone really welcoming and there was some great banter from both sides! Even Leinster fans around us were singing "Oh when the Saints" is support of us. I think they were well aware of the gulf in class and appreciated that we came to play the full 80.

Money is one thing in terms of players, but opportunity is the other. Only four clubs get a shout at up and coming players. Those
players are shepherded through an established country targeted system by international grade coaches. Those of GB and France are spread across a multitude of clubs, and a multitude of systems

We focus on the players here, but we must also look at the coaching structures. The IRFU make sure the best coaches are put in place alongside Irish coaches so the future proofing is working steadily.

And then the IRFU appoint Andy Farrell as Joe Scmidt's replacement. Are they simply saying they don't have an Irishman ready yet?

For those of you that travelled over, thanks for coming and I hope we'll see everyone again. Nice atmosphere at the match but boy was it cold!

Just an answer re Farrell and the Irish coaching job. I think Farrell's appointment was as much about continuity than about there not being an Irish person ready yet. Mark McCall, Conor O'Shea are two that come to mind and obviously Leo Cullen would be in with a shout too I think but it probably would go against what appears to be a fairly well thought through plan. I think the plan is to get the best coaches available it provincial level and let their coaching filter up into the national side as evidenced by Munster getting Larkham and Rowntree in this year.

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