I like to take one thing at a time so I don't let you confuse me with your bs. So that's my response this time.

Really, you bothered to read that much?

bruce, just admit it, you really have no idea of anything other than a caption.

Okay, so we have established you can read, lets hear how you know EXACTLY where this was, if it was along a road at a ranch where sheep were being held in a lambing pasture or if it was near a working facility on the range somewhere.

Most importantly bruce how can you tell from a 70 year old picture that the lands that that many sheep were being grazed on were over grazed?

Speaking of AUM's. Supposedly one bovine needs about 320 acres in that area. One f-ing cow per 320 acres is gonna bother a damn tortoise? Really. What proof of that do they have? Also, "they" don't seem to be worried about the 40,000 wild horses and donkeys running around NV. What a damn sham.

What "they" should do is reduce Bundy's heard by 10 critters and mitigate the proposed solar power plant field or whatever they call it with a coal fired power plant which would have a much smaller foot print. :)

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French." Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
-Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

The situation came to a head in Feb., 1991, when David Grider, Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest district ranger, canceled Hage’s livestock grazing permit altogether on fabricated charges of overgrazing and “trespassing cattle on public lands.”

Driven into the ground financially, his grazing permits cancelled, Hage had no choice “but to sell the cattle and the land for whatever I could and hope that I could get out of there with the shirt on my back.”

SWAT Those Cowboys!

That July the Forest Service brought in the big guns – literally.

While Hage and his work crew (which included 15-year-old Wayne, Jr.), were out on the range rounding up cattle, “the USFS came in: automatic weapons, flack jackets, snipers – the whole works – as if we were dangerous criminals. The USFS confiscated over a hundred head of my cattle at gun point. But when they tried to sell them, no one in Nevada would buy them because they knew they were stolen. The Forest Service, a federal agency, was engaged in cattle rustling! They had stolen my cattle and were trying to steal my land as well.”

On Sept. 26, 1991, the Hages filed a “taking” case in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, demanding just compensation for the property taken, as provided by the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report. WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

To date, that is the most accurate account of the way it went down. Noticed this part in the article:

﻿

Seismic Shift

What the Hages and hundreds of ranching families across the 17 western states had yet to come to grips with was that under pressure from environmental groups there had been a seismic shift in philosophy and policy at the major federal land agencies – the Forest Service, Park Service, and the Bureau of Land Management. Cattle grazing, mining, and timber cutting were “out.” Hunting, fishing, hiking and assorted recreational uses were “in”. This translated into a concerted effort by the rank and file within those agencies to end such economic activities as ranching and mining and logging. In this they were aided and abetted by various environmental groups – the National Wildlife Federation, Sierra Club and the like.

Cattle out....hunting in. This is a hunt and fish web-forum. So why wouldn't most here think taking from the Hage's and giving to them, be a good idea? The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

They are a controlled opposition group. A surrogate of the fed/gov. First they get sportsmen to back their plans and then when they got what they want they double cross. It says in the above assorted recreational uses are "in".

Today the Blue Ribbon Coalition is fighting with the National Wildlife Federation in Nevada because the NWF is trying to get every Off Road Vehicle (ATV) banned from driving across anything under their control. Sportsmens groups are actually falling into line because they go along with the claim that ATV's make noise pollution.

Pit one group against the other until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

What many do not know is the national Wildlife Federation is one of the biggys that brought the Clean Water Wildlife Parks Petition to North Dakota. At the Democrat State Convention the Clean Parks Petitioners had a booth. They packed up early because no one was signing.

I need a reliable source before I can believe that. So far it just sounds like children crying wolf.

until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

That's not true. You can hunt, fish, camp and many other things in wilderness areas.

The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation. In my home town most are farmers. In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs.

I think were all going to have to wait for the emotions to cool down and more facts come out. Right now we have people saying don't stop grazing for a turtle. Tortoise are not turtles. I keep wondering what their main food source is and if that's the reason for the removal of cattle. I guess those things will come to light when calmer minds prevail.

Edit: I just googled desert tortoise conservation center. I see part of their problem is they have been overwhelmed by taking in tortoise that people don't want anymore. Even up here in North Dakota people have adopted tortoise. Once the thrill wares off they are looking for places to dump them. Most that come in are sick. I think most of the euthanizing we read about are those tortoise that are not going to make it anyway. At least that's what I can find trying to look at the other side of the story.

I see desert tortoise eat grass. I was looking to see if Eurotia lanata was important in their diet because in western states cows eat it also. I hope once the dust of insanity settles we get some level headed answers.

gst Said:
pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report. WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

.

The difference gst is that Hage won his court battle and Bundy lost. Can't you understand that or don't facts matter when they don't support your opinion? Second, because of Bundy's criminal behavior and not complying with the court's orders he is wasting more of the people's tax money. You're acting like a typical liberal with a victim mentality.

﻿There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation.

Many??? How many? Got a list? We're talking a more current list. Not an old list where a town hasn't been active for ten years or more. The NDWF is almost on life support. What real sportsmen need to do is join and then vote the activists out.

In my home town most are farmers. In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs.

Most are farmers. Psh!!!

David Alan Brandt federal biologist for the northern prairie wildlife research center (USGS) in Jamestown is the president of the Stutsmans County wildlife federation and past president of the NDWF.

The present president of the NDWF is Mike McEnore, retired federal biologist USFWS and lobbyist for the wildlife society.

Vote them out. The trouble is they would have to be replaced and somebody would have to volunteer. Plainsman, you volunteer your time here and nodakouthouse all day everyday. You sit in your hidey hole and post. Nodak is a dying web-forum. The NDWF is too. Some of you old activists need to be replaced.

I need a reliable source before I can believe that. So far it just sounds like children crying wolf.

until the wildlerness designation. Everybody keep out.

That's not true. You can hunt, fish, camp and many other things in wilderness areas.

The National Willdife Federation is a sportsmens club right? ....Wrong.

There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation. In my home town most are farmers. In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs.

Like Dick Monson right?

I think were all going to have to wait for the emotions to cool down and more facts come out. Good one Bruce, you have 18 pages of "facts" backed up with the links of where they have came from and they are not good enough for you. Right now we have people saying don't stop grazing for a turtle. Tortoise are not turtles. I keep wondering what their main food source is and if that's the reason for the removal of cattle. I guess those things will come to light when calmer minds prevail.

Edit: I just googled desert tortoise conservation center. I see part of their problem is they have been overwhelmed by taking in tortoise that people don't want anymore. Even up here in North Dakota people have adopted tortoise. Once the thrill wares off they are looking for places to dump them. Most that come in are sick. I think most of the euthanizing we read about are those tortoise that are not going to make it anyway. At least that's what I can find trying to look at the other side of the story.

I see desert tortoise eat grass. I was looking to see if Eurotia lanata was important in their diet because in western states cows eat it also. I hope once the dust of insanity settles we get some level headed answers.

plainsman if you took the time to "google" information about tortoises, why did you not google information about how they have been euthanised.

Just becasue you don;t want to beleive things becasue they blow holes in your claims does not mena they are childrens stories.

gst Said:
pber, perhaps that is why Wayne Hage whom ron and bruce hold up as an example of being right (only after learning the facts) was there supporting Clive Bundys fight against the very same govt over reach he dealt with firsthand.

From a Fox news report. WAYNE HAGE, RANCHER:" Most the people here are not ranchers, they are city people that are just fed up with it as well. And that is amazing to me that the American people finally stood up and said we have had enough of this federal government overreach and we are not going to take it any longer."

The BLM's response. "“After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially,”"

And like the typical Federal govt, the latest report is over $3,000,000.000 spent trying to collect at most (dependent on facts) a $1,000,000.00 debt.

Indeed they must "protect" the taxpayers finances along with the desert tortoise they are euthanizing by the hundreds.

And yet some claim this Federal entity can better "manage" these lands than the states.

Funny/disgusting how they expect the state residents to pay their Federal taxes so they can waste them like this and yet claim they are acting to protect the "taxpayers" investments.

.

The difference gst is that Hage won his court battle and Bundy lost. Can't you understand that or don't facts matter when they don't support your opinion? Second, because of Bundy's criminal behavior and not complying with the court's orders he is wasting more of the people's tax money. You're acting like a typical liberal with a victim mentality.

Enter another plainsman disciple from nodak.

longshot, were you aware that the judge that ruled against Clive Bundy was invited to DC and was being promoted for a seat on the SCOTUS by Sen. Reid?

Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

longshot, what would have happened if the BLM had just placed a lien on the cattle Mr. Bundy owned?

It seems like after allowing 20 years of non payment and non action such as this to collect the fees if they did have the legal standing from the judges ruling, one could logically conclude that the expenditure of over $3 million to collect $1 million is not a good responsible protection of the tax payers monies the BLM seems worried about.

Plainsman Said:
There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs that are affiliated with the Wildlife Federation. In my home town most are farmers. In Jamestown the Wildlife Federation and United Sportsmen are the two largest clubs.

Plainsman Said:I need a reliable source before I can believe that. So far it just sounds like children crying wolf.

Plainsman Said:
There are many small towns in North Dakota with Wildlife clubs. In my home town most are farmers.

And yet you never cease to claim agriculture is anti sportsman and anti wildlife.

But hey back to the subject of grazing these lands, Bruce, what is the National Wildlife Federations that these clubs are affiliated with thru the state affiliation, policies on grazing CRP and other Federal lands?

Didn;t they file a lawsuit thru the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to block grazing on CRP lands bruce??

Here you go Plainsmain. I will cut and paste this from the article I posted so you don't have to read the whole thing:

But in 1991 he was a council for the National Wildlife Federation, one of the largest and most powerful, non-profit environmental organizations in the world – with a developed agenda to get rid of ranchers like Wayne Hage.

On Mar. 10, 1991, Elicker participated in a panel at the Public Interest Law Conference at the University of Oregon, where he spoke quite frankly the organization’s political strategy that was being used to end livestock grazing on federal lands. The panel was titled “Public Lands Grazing: This Land is Our Land.” Here are a few excerpts from his talk:

"What everyone likes is the Big Victory. You load them cattle trucks for the last time and they go driving off into the sunset and they never come back."

"But you can win a lot more victories than that ultimate one, you can win a lot more victories by making him (the rancher) pay for what he does out there and by making it so expensive in his operation and making so many changes for him to continue to run his cattle on the public lands that he goes broke, he can't do it, he has to come up with other ways to be a rancher."

"When you get right down to it, the boots and the hat, boy for them guys, it’s a way of life."

"The ultimate picture is, of course, the last cattle truck driving off into the sunset, but that's not how you win."

"How you win is one at a time, one at a time, he goes out of business, he dies, you wait him out, but you win."

gst Said:
Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

Please provide proof to these claims. Yet you are defending someone who used public resources for free, stealing from the people. Did the judge look at the Hage case, I don't know, but I would be Bundy did bring it up. GST, why hasn't Bundy challenged this ruling in a higher court?

pber, I don't agree with the guy who said that. As I said it's not good for land to be idle. Most of our prairie plant species are products of bison grazing and prairie fire. One of the worst invaders is Kentucky Bluegrass. People would not suspect that species, but the problem is it leaves years of dead material on the surface choking out some species and shading the soil preventing other species from sprouting. You either graze it light or moderate, or you burn to control vegetative buildup.

I still think we need to look at all of these things separately. Hage, Reid, and Bundy. What I can't understand is why didn't the BLM throw Bundy off in 1994 if he stopped paying in 1993. That is part of the problem. They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

gst Said:
Now I know you will instantly come to the defense of this judge, but given Reid's history of fraud and manipulation of the sytem, could the possibility of impropriety exist in this judicial ruling?

Can you tell us if this judge looked at the Hage case in making his ruling?

Please provide proof to these claims. Yet you are defending someone who used public resources for free, stealing from the people. Did the judge look at the Hage case, I don't know, but I would be Bundy did bring it up. GST, why hasn't Bundy challenged this ruling in a higher court?

longshot watch the video of the Lou Dobbs I posted. They mention reids connection to this judge. All I did is ask a question, I did not make a "claim" outside of what was stated in the Dobbs video, you seem to have the same grasp of the English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Note the enlarged, emboldened question mark indicating a question rather than a claim.

Is Jimmy a crooked politician?

Jimmy is a crooked politician.

If you guys wish to dismiss the possibility of yet another connection to fraud or wrong doing related to Reid and this case, you surely can.

You will have to ask bundy why he has not challenged anything. Perhaps he has exhausted his finances in the earlier cases? Who knows, Wayne Hage has spoken to the fact these Federal takings cases are extremely costly to follow thru and prove.

Like I said, you would have to ask Mr. Bundy. Perhaps as a life long Nevadan he has a little better handle on the depth of corruption that exists there than you or I.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds money grab measure camoflauged as a "clean air and water" solution. .

What do you suppose they will target those funds for Bruce?

Buying up grazing allotments on lands you claim to support grazing on??

You do know that is what the NWF does right?

Perhaps using these 5% funds will free up more funds for lawsuits such as this one.

The 90's were full of actions such as these by the enviromentalists and their front orgs Bruce. You see those of us in the ranching business are quite familiar with the actions these groups engaged in .

So when people such as yourself defend their coming into our state to spend millions in out of state dollars to change our constitution to gain access to BILLIONS of dollars we have some pretty valid reasons to oppose them.

So will you stand up against these orgs such as the NWF that you claim you do not agree with, or will you defend them and attack others that seek to educate the people of North Dakota about their real agendas?

Plainsman Said:
That is part of the problem. They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

Ha good one that would only come from a life long govt employee. The GOVT was the one "talking reason"..................... good one bruce.

So apparently you believe a clear concerted effort to remove ranchers and grazing from these lands is "talking reason" eh bruce?

But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds

You held off for 19 pages to bring it up this time, but it always goes there doesn't it. I hope real sportsmen see that you don't have a conservation thought in all of this. As a matter of fact your always on the side pro ag and anti conservation. Lets settle one debate at a time. It doesn't always have to be something that gets you off.

You are not a truthful person gst. The only thing I said was Bundy was not a person to talk reason with. Didn't the court also have a reasonable conclusion, and Bundy defies it?

You want to run in circles because Bundy can not reasonably be defended. A thief has no defense.

English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Funny coming from a guy who clearly can't understand. I don't like highly educated looking down their nose at those with less education, but I have just as much disgust with those with less education that think the educated are stupid. One is arrogant and the other is ignorant, and both impress only themselves.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

Didn't think so.

Your typical redirection and BS. I have not talked about the lands being sold to the Chinese. I didn't know that was a requirement under a thread primarily about Bundy. You have no credibility when you continue to twist words. I don't agree to the selling of land to the Chinese, but you try to imply that I am for it by accusing me of it because I didn't post about it. This is your typical BS.

Also I rarely post on either of the sites mentioned, but what does that matter?

But yet you want to welcome them into our state to change our constitution!!!! The NWF is one ofthe big pockets behind the 5% oil and gas tax funds

You held off for 19 pages to bring it up this time, but it always goes there doesn't it.

plaisnamn it "always goes there" because these groups are always behind crap like forcing ranchers of these multiple use Federal lands and other agendas such as the EPA's "collaboration" with The Nature Conservancy.

Dig deep enough and these non profit orgs almost ALWAYS show up.

And now you want them to come into our state to change our states constitution to have access to billions of dollars.

Plainsman Said:
That is part of the problem. They keep trying to talk and reason and you can't reason with people like Bundy.

Plainsman Said:

You are not a truthful person gst. The only thing I said was Bundy was not a person to talk reason with.

which is it bruce, it surely seems as if you are suggesting the "govt/they" "keep trying to talk reason".

Plainsman Said:

English language past 3rd grade as ron.

Funny coming from a guy who clearly can't understand. I don't like highly educated looking down their nose at those with less education, but I have just as much disgust with those with less education that think the educated are stupid. One is arrogant and the other is ignorant, and both impress only themselves.

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I only think the educated are "stupid" when they display their stupidity with their own words bruce.

Have they provided any links to disprove what has been offered up as information in this case?

Or have they just engagd in petty personal attacks much like what you have chosen to bring to the table?

You do ramble on a bit more over on Nodak though don;t you long shot?

There seems to be about a half dozen of you guys left.

Longshot, you seem pretty upset about Bundy "stealing" a million dollars from the people, how do you feel about the "peoples" lands being sold to the Chinese for a small fraction of their appraised worth of many tens of millions by the Clark County Commissioners under the leadership of Sen Reid's son?

Can you link us to a post you have made stating your outrage over that "theft"?

Didn't think so.

Your typical redirection and BS. I have not talked about the lands being sold to the Chinese. I didn't know that was a requirement under a thread primarily about Bundy. You have no credibility when you continue to twist words. I don't agree to the selling of land to the Chinese, but you try to imply that I am for it by accusing me of it because I didn't post about it. This is your typical BS.

Also I rarely post on either of the sites mentioned, but what does that matter?

longshot, you seemed upset about this rancher "stealing" from "the people", I was merely curious to see what you thought about the Chinese firm being sold BLM lands (the peoples lands) appraised at a fraction of what they are worth?

No where have I inferred you were "for" this sale of lands far below their value, only that you are so biased against one rancher you would chose to over look this "theft" of many millions from "the people".

That observation is no BS.

I mean a number of people other than myslef, who knows how many by now, believe there exists some connection between the two but if you guys wish to dismiss these connections and Sen Reids history, you most certianly can. .

The thread is not "primarily about Bundy" but the over reach and crooked back dealings of the govt to remove ranchers like Bundy from these multiple use private lands.

Kinda thought this was funny, It seems alot like how some are trying to dismiss the govts actions and connections.

No matter what side of the AISLE you're on, THIS is FUNNY.

Judy Walkman, a professional genealogy researcher in southern California , was doing some personal work on her own family tree. She discovered that Senator Harry Reid's great-great uncle, Remus Reid, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889. Both Judy and Harry Reid share this common ancestor.
The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows in Montana territory.

On the back of the picture Judy obtained during her research is this inscription: 'Remus Reid, horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'
So Judy recently e-mailed Senator Harry Reid for information about their great-great uncle.

Believe it or not, Harry Reid's staff sent back the following biographical sketch for her genealogy research:

"Remus Reid was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory . His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to government service, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed."

Now THAT’s how it’s done, Folks!
That’s real Political Spin!!

Indeed, this is about some grazing fees and a tortoise boys and girls.

Bundy never signed the lease back in 1993 either. Now go fish. You tell us why?

I think that's why the BLM called it trespassing. I don't think he had grazing rights when he put his cattle out this spring. Maybe that's why they decided to do something this time of year. It's when he put his cows on the land.

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I used the word "they" because it would cover everyone who tried to reason with Bundy. That would include the BLM, the judge, the county sheriff I would guess got involved somewhere, the county commissioner that expressed his opinion of the Bundy's, and anyone else who talked with him. Your trying to make mountains out of mole hills.

So lets get the subject of this thread out of the way before we go off on tangents. I'm interested why you support Bundy. Do you think he should still have grazing rights? Do you think an apartment renter should be able to stay in his apartment after not paying rent for 20 years. Just to help you out lets pretend the apartment renter isn't a farmer.

Bundy never signed the lease back in 1993 either. Now go fish. You tell us why?

I think that's why the BLM called it trespassing. I don't think he had grazing rights when he put his cattle out this spring. Maybe that's why they decided to do something this time of year. It's when he put his cows on the land. As opposed to the previous 20 years????

I mean my understanding of English makes me think that's what you were saying bruce.

I used the word "they" because it would cover everyone who tried to reason with Bundy. That would include the BLM, the judge, the county sheriff I would guess got involved somewhere, the county commissioner that expressed his opinion of the Bundy's, and anyone else who talked with him. Your trying to make mountains out of mole hills. Nice story bruce.

So buce are you claiming that all these entities you say are a part of this clear move to remove these ranchers from these lands by cutting their allotments to the point they can no longer stay in business were "talking reasonable"?

Is the following thatpber posted an example of your "talking reasonable"?

"What everyone likes is the Big Victory. You load them cattle trucks for the last time and they go driving off into the sunset and they never come back."

"But you can win a lot more victories than that ultimate one, you can win a lot more victories by making him (the rancher) pay for what he does out there and by making it so expensive in his operation and making so many changes for him to continue to run his cattle on the public lands that he goes broke, he can't do it, he has to come up with other ways to be a rancher."

"When you get right down to it, the boots and the hat, boy for them guys, it’s a way of life."

"The ultimate picture is, of course, the last cattle truck driving off into the sunset, but that's not how you win."

"How you win is one at a time, one at a time, he goes out of business, he dies, you wait him out, but you win."

Indeed bruce nothing but a "molehill" here right??

Especially when these groups have millions of dollars to accomplish their goals and have their lawsuits paid for by the tax payer.

You see bruce you don;t want the average person to know this is what is behind all this do you.

People like you and longshot don;t want to be straight up with the people of this state and let them know that these are the kinds of people and groups and ideals trying to buy changes to our constitution with their millions of out of state dollars.

And when anyone pulls back the covers and shines a light on the roaches you immediately attack them personally to try and deflect from the reality of what is happening.

Perhaps they taught you that in govt class somewhere in your tenure as a life long govt employee.