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Don't mean to offend anyone, but I *strongly* urge everyone not to field collect seeds, as it takes several years for a plant to mature. This can led to a generation gap in the habitat if too much seed is collected. If everyone collects a few seeds, the population could be decimated as a long-term consequence. I would hate see these plants to become extinct in wild as so many other species have.

Appreciate your sentiments but it seems the point is mute. None left to collect from what I can gather.

I would also have to say that you need to balance the harm you are potentially doing in causing the generation gap that you mention with the fact that there are (read "were" ) almost no plants left in the wild anyway. I've spoken with a few people that have been to the clipeata site and they were relatively easy to collect, some of them were on steep rock faces but were not completely uncollectable - obviously. The plants were only on one, isolated site and therefore extremely vulnerable to being wiped out. Indonesia has absolutely ZILCH policing of it's national parks in most areas and many people that I have met from the forestry department are completely unaware of the existence of these plants, let alone being aware of the fact that they are on the verge of extinction in the wild.
This combination makes me think that it is better to collect the seed and propogate as many of the plants as possible for distribution to as many people as possible. The effect of this would be to reduce the demand for wild collected plants and also, as Ram pointed out, will also ensure that there ARE still plants left that could be reintroduced at a later time. Better than leaving the seeds and having the entire population collected by some unscrupulous collectors - no?

I was being general w/ my beliefs regarding field collecting, not specifically towards N. clipeata.

While your points are valid, I'm not sure if it is the best solution for the N. clipeata problem. Collecting seeds is not as dramatic as removing plants from the wild, as the success rate of seed germination is naturally low. The scenario I was referring to is regarding people justifying field collecting for their own needs -- whether it is for monetary gain, or personal enjoyment gained from growing the plant.

I understand what you are trying to do. It is a difficult problem, and can be debated from many points of view. Here are some concerns that I'm going to throw out in the open, that I don't have the best answers for... What should be the criteria for field collecting? Who should be responsible for field collecting? How do we know that other N. clipeata field collectors didn't the same intent and purpose as you have? Who is going to reintroduce the plants to the wild? If grown in captivity, how do we ensure that plant receives the same environmental conditions as in the wild (especially for reintroduction purposes)? How do we ensure the species remain pure? How much should be field collected without decimating the natural population?

The best solution is to protect the land where the species are naturally found, and it seems that this is not possible for N. clipeata. If some natural event (not directly/indirectly caused by man) forces a specie to die in it's natural habitat, so be it.

N. clipeata and many other species have been cultivated. While it can be hard to locate and possibly expensive to buy, it is still possible to find one. My purpose is to raise awareness on the issues surrounding field collecting. Any judgement call should be made from the specie's (whether it be plant's or animal's) point of view, not anthrogenic.

I havenít heard of any other clipeata sites being found, that doesnít mean that there hasnít been one found though. I do know that Chien Lee (the dude that rediscovered campanulata in west Borneo, when I wasted months going feral in east Borneo where it was originally discovered) gave it a shot and didnít find it. Charles Clarke and I think even Andreas Wistuba have also had a good look at similar sites and lucked out. Clipeata was known to grow on Gunung Kelam which is a big granite rock, sticking out of a flat plain. There are other, similar rocks in the general area however as far as I know, clipeata hasnít been found on any of them. This was the case with campanulata too. I looked around the general area at other likely sites and assumed it had been wiped out. Lo and behold it is found on the other side of the island!! So who knows?

Emesis

Yes, I understood what you were saying.
With regard to the clipeata problem, and this will also very shortly apply to a few others that I know of too; aristolochiodes now and maybe dubia sometime soon, I donít see any other alternative to collecting seed, if itís possible. As an example, the last time I visited the aristolochiodes site there were surely no more than about 10 plants left. Even if no one visited the site again, I believe that this is below the minimum number of plants required to sustain the population. I canít accept that we should leave these fantastic plants to die out, ultimately because we have overcollected them.

Hereís my scene for a perfect world, which we all know this is far from, butÖ.

Forget, for a minute, the fact that the gov. here in Indo has no money.
The government could set up a tc lab somewhere like at the Bogor Herbarium where there is some serious botanic talent, and interest. Employ someone to go around and collect seed from all the Indonesian species and create a ďbankĒ of tcíd plants. These could be available for export sale as tubed plants. As well as making the plants ubiquitous and therefore unlikely to be wiped out, it would reduce demand for wild collected, employ a few people and generate some much needed revenue. This would be in addition to setting up proper national park boundaries to stop gardening encroaching into forests, employing more staff to police the parks, etc ,etc. Last but DEFINITELY not least, it would also include EDUCATING the local people, which is no mean feat. Without this, you would be pushing the proverbial sh*t uphill trying to achieve anything else.

Now unless some well meaning philanthrope with a penchant for bug-eating plants comes along this is never going to happen in my lifetime. The next best thing is what Malaysia has done. They have recognized that in these days of eco-tourism, their national parks and forests are some of their best assets. They have much better organized national parks. You couldnít take a plant from Kinabalu if you wanted to. There is no rubbish, the path going up is still attractive and well maintained. In contrast, if you climb Mt Bromo in east Java, they have put CONCRETE steps up the side of the mountain Ė like something out of ďGone with the WindĒ!!

I diverge.
Bottom line:
In my opinion, some of the plants are too far gone to just be left to repopulate on their own. Collecting seed, propagating as many as possible and distributing them as widely as possible seems to be the best way to ensure the plants donít become extinct. Given the state of this country at present, everything else will have to wait, and until then, whatever plants that are still left need to be looked after and if we arenít the ones to do it, then I ask youÖ.?

Hey, not to but in here but I was going thru a few sites and found some clipeata for sale [img]http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]
go here,http://www.nepenthes.com/cat_list.asp
I hope this helps you out and yes they are rather expensive.