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The Rational Response Squad is a group of atheist activists who impact society by changing the way we view god belief. This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us.

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My belief(I'm coming from a biblical background) is that I do cease to exist when I die, but that there is resurrection. Since the eternal torture concept is nonsense and without basis, worship is not compulsory other than in the sense of wanting what is offered in exchange for things, for this conversation what's wanted is eternal life.

I like my deity and I enjoy the present life experience. I'm prepared for this to be it. Were this it, I'd still like to include my relationship with my god in my highly finite life.

Eternal life is not a reward...Once your born, you are eternal provided that God does not destroy your soul. Heaven is not a reward for following God since those who choose to follow Jesus will actually live on Earth for eternity, not in heaven. Living in Heaven is temporary until the end of this age.

Does the second question assume that you prove that the diety also doesn't exist.

If my deity of choice doesn't give eternal life, that would mean that he was a lier...however he would still have the ability to grant eternal life (unless your assuming he doesn't have that power) even though he hasn't done it before, so I guess I would still follow him hoping I'm good enough to be the first to get eternal life.

I really like this question Maragon. I read it last night when I got home late and a little drunk. I had a great desire to respond to it then, but I wanted to do it when I was 100% sober.

First off, I just want to say it again, I really like this question. Personally, I found that when I read it the wheels started turning big time. So I think I'll start off by saying that it would really suck to find out that there was no eternal life. It almost seems, in my mind, that one of the primary functions of there being a Creator is to provide a place for his creations to be with him again. So to find out that there is not a life, eternally, after this one would be a great blow. Again thoughts such as, "What about consequences? What about rewards?" come to mind with great veracity. It seems that with no eternal life, there would be no punishment or come-upins for murders like Dahmer, Manson, etc. and this for some reason gets my girdle. It just doesn't seem right for there not be effects corresponding to committing such haneous crimes during our humanity. It sickens me to know that nothing would happen to them.

This last point makes me come to a sad realization, I am vindictive. I believe this is right word to describe my feeling towards murderers and their need for punishment. I know that it's bad to wish ill things upon anyone, but for some reason, their horrible actions justify my feelings in my mind. Wierd...I thought I was a nice person through and through. Suppose some more food for thought when it comes to considering my sense of generosity (or lack there of) for serial killers.

So that's my long answer to the question you asked. The following is just a fine point about the idea that I've hypothetical ly discovered my God to exist. It seems to me, that if there is a God with all the omni's you can slap on to him, if there were other Gods besides him, he wouldn't be omni'ed in every sense of the word. I believe it was Plato who brought up a similar question when he recounted some of Socrates' views of polytheism in Greek culture. Such as, if God's fight then how can there be unity among them? In my mind, you can also say, if there is many Gods how can one of them be all powerful? If you say that some Gods are less powerful, then wouldn't that make them no longer a God? So I see the hypothetical realization that "my" God exists, as essentially, pointing to the only God that in fact does exist. I seems to follow that that would be case following Plato's line of reasoning if my God has all the omni's you can slap on him.

The last bit was just some philosophical ponderings concerning God. Essentially it was just superfluous jabberring, but none the less valuable I hope for those trying to understand my answer to your question Maragon. Again, thank you for a great question and incase I didn't answer it simply enough and your still asking yourself, "what is your damn answer??!?!?" it would be, I wouldn't like to hear that there is not an eteneral life.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat

Much as I like you Jread, I don't think you really said much. The point you did make about punishment is perhaps a good point. But Christianity does allow for forgiveness if the murderer repents, also it seems that any misdemeanor is punishable.

It is my opinion that retributivism is not the best way to deal with criminals, a bit of punishment might work for rehabilitation, and perhaps they would deserve some harsh treatment, but the grounds for disertion seem to be extremely sketchy, what is disert after all? I certainly do not believe in an eye for an eye, and it is definately not the best way to go about things. Rehabilitation is always an option, except in the case of socio/psychopaths who are impossible to rehabilitate, most people can be turned around, become good moral people. A lot of the time it is a hard upbringing and all sorts of psychological problems associated with a harsh life that leads people to crime, but with counselling, mentoring, guidance they can turn their life around (while being isolated from the public for safety) under a minimum sentence (to avoid the faking of rehabilitation).

People don't have to get away with murder, just because there is no afterlife/ eternity in hell.

Also your last paragraph concerning God, was just loose speculation, fairly lazy and half-hearted musing. You didn't seem to get any point across either.

Everything you said was exactly right Jacob. I didn't have much to say and the last bit was just musing ;P

By saying all that I didn't say, I was merely trying to point out the lack of an answer I had to a really good question. The reason I think the question is so good, is because I don't really have an answer.

I apologize if I made it seem like I had an answer somewhere within my reply. All of it was essentially a great big "I don't know what to think" buried among an enormous pile of words.

The implication that we should put Darwinism on trial overlooks the fact that Darwinism has always been on trial within the scientific community. -- From Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth R. Miller

Chaos and chance don't mean the absence of law and order, but rather the presence of order so complex that it lies beyond our abilities to grasp and describe it. -- From From Certainty to Uncertainty by F. David Peat

I find the notion of pursuing excessive punishments(torture) on people, especially after they die, to be inhumane. I consider it humane to put down a person who is a danger to society to the extent of a killer. I'm comfortable with a serial rapist being executed, or other persistent violent acts leading to execution. I don't find death inhumane. The prison system we have now in the west exists for profit, unfortunately it's also skewed perceptions of what is even possible.

I don't know when 'god' began to be clearly defined as omnis and infinites. I'd like to know about that. I could do a lot of papers on it next semester

If so, is this because the religion you ascribe to has made it clear that believers(you may or may not have to do 'extra' things to get in) will get this eternal life as a reward?

Eternal life is not a reward for worship in orthodox Christianity. Worship is a natural outgrowth of an encounter with God. Think of how you feel when you see a really beautiful sunset or the feeling you have when someone does something truly kind for you or the excitement of falling in love….that's worship.

Maragon wrote:

Would you still believe in and worship a god if there is never any hope of a reward for doing so? Why?

Sure. Worship is it's own reward. Would I continue to feel owe about the beauty of the universe even if there was no reward for it? Sure, it is its own reward. Would I continue to feel gratitude when someone does something very kind to me even if there was no reward for it? Sure, it is its own reward. Would I continue to get excited about love even if there was no reward for it? Sure, it is its own reward.

Honestly, I wouldn't for a second serve Him if i knew that i'll get nothing in return. But i'm betting my life (and soul) that He exists and that He keeps His promises and give me my promised reward for obeying and serving Him and Him alone.

Its no different from others betting their entire fortunes on a single wager.

I would still worship God without any chance of reward. I believe in an afterlife, but I don't really believe in heaven and hell in the way Christians believe in them. I don't believe the basic "good goes to heaven, bad goes to hell." I believe that everyone can go to Heaven. In death, we are free, flawless, and happy. Even pedophiles and murderers are changed in death. I hate to think that people who do terrible things of that caliber are getting away with it (I'm vindictive too), upon my death, I won't care. I have a had time believing that child molesters are sane. This could be my own naivete, but I just don't want to believe that sexual attraction to a five year old is sane. While I would like to see them burn for such horrors, I don't think it really happens. As for Heaven, Heaven is what you make of it. I for instance, want a library with every book ever written and one fountain of soda and one of wine and one of beer. That's my Heaven. Even if it doesn't happen like that, I still believe that god exists. If at the end, there is nothing, then I guess I won't have an opinion on it since I won't exist.

I wouldn't discount the possibility, but I don't suspect that there is any afterlife to speak of. I don't count on it, nor do I live life under the impression that anything I do will echo into eternity.

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If so, is this because the religion you ascribe to has made it clear that believers(you may or may not have to do 'extra' things to get in) will get this eternal life as a reward?

I think it's safe to say that most people who subscribe to some form of Christianity would believe this, but... I still doubt it.

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Imagine for a moment that humans have somehow definitively proven that there is no such thing as eternal life; after we die, that's all there is to it.

Would you continue to worship your deity of choice?

Yep.

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Imagine(again) for a moment that humans have proven that your god DOES exist! However, even though this god exists, he does not grant you or anyone else eternal life.

Would you continue to worship your deity of choice?

You bet.

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Would you still believe in and worship a god if there is never any hope of a reward for doing so? Why?

There's a lot more to a religious hermeneutic than metaphysical and teleological hopes for an afterlife and consummate rewards in eternity. I enjoy religion *now* and make sense of life through religion at the moment. It is sufficient.

I would still worship God without any chance of reward. I believe in an afterlife, but I don't really believe in heaven and hell in the way Christians believe in them. I don't believe the basic "good goes to heaven, bad goes to hell." I believe that everyone can go to Heaven. In death, we are free, flawless, and happy. Even pedophiles and murderers are changed in death. I hate to think that people who do terrible things of that caliber are getting away with it (I'm vindictive too), upon my death, I won't care. I have a had time believing that child molesters are sane. This could be my own naivete, but I just don't want to believe that sexual attraction to a five year old is sane. While I would like to see them burn for such horrors, I don't think it really happens. As for Heaven, Heaven is what you make of it. I for instance, want a library with every book ever written and one fountain of soda and one of wine and one of beer. That's my Heaven. Even if it doesn't happen like that, I still believe that god exists. If at the end, there is nothing, then I guess I won't have an opinion on it since I won't exist.

Sorry if I got off topic a bit, just trying to explain myself. : )

I believe, and this is my opinion, that we will all be judged by our actions, based on the rules we set ourselves..... mostly.

For example, i believe that there are atheist who would actually make it to paradise in spite of their unbelief, and even communists. You see, its not only what you believe which is important but how you live and apply it in your life. Take Oscar Schindler for example. I'm sure he got alot of cookie points with the God of the Jews for what he did for them during WWII.

what's the point of believing in God when you live a conciously and willingly sinful life?