GrovePath wrote:[quote]...Want to stop the disruption to resident's lives and stop the eroding of real estate values and keep it "family friendly"? Shut the places down at Midnight. Let those who want to "party" move along to another town before they get completely sh*t-faced. If you think for a minute that a cop or two hanging around here or there will make a difference then you are deluded.

You make a good point -- especially with bars that have endless issues.

Those bars and restaurants have raised property values. If you don't like them cash out and move

nafco wrote:how can a place like bourbon street exist or 6 street in austin, and JC cant sustain a 2 block stretch without chaos ensuing?

Those areas ARE chaotic. Bourbon Street, State Street in Philly, downtown Galway... they're a total mess on a Friday night.

Quote:

why cant we have nice things like a ped plaza without issue?

Because even if there wasn't an issue, someone would make an issue.

Anyway: Sadly, alcohol loosens inhibitions, and makes people rowdy. This is not some grand secret that no one understands, it's why people (including me) push back on bars in residential neighborhoods.

Quote:

i think this goes beyond just booze though maybe there is more police patrolling the other places in the world that open their streets to the public after drinking hours.

I don't recall a heavy police presence in the French Quarter or similar neighborhoods.

...Want to stop the disruption to resident's lives and stop the eroding of real estate values and keep it "family friendly"? Shut the places down at Midnight. Let those who want to "party" move along to another town before they get completely sh*t-faced. If you think for a minute that a cop or two hanging around here or there will make a difference then you are deluded.

You make a good point -- especially with bars that have endless issues.

I find this all quite hilarious. Are the cops really going to walk around "shushing" people? You wanted "a vast selection of craft beers with tasty treats" and you got drunks and litter. Want to stop the disruption to resident's lives and stop the eroding of real estate values and keep it "family friendly"? Shut the places down at Midnight. Let those who want to "party" move along to another town before they get completely sh*t-faced. If you think for a minute that a cop or two hanging around here or there will make a difference then you are deluded.

I am trying very hard not to second guess police coverage and tactics, but regardless of staffing levels, if this is a problem area then shouldn't police be deployed there?

One does not need to dedicate an extra pair of officers to stay at the Pedestrian Plaza all night. But if this is where incidents are occurring, then East District can incorporate that into its patrols.

I understand that this is largely a zero sum game. If you send an officer to the plaza, then they are taken away from another area that they are patrolling or will respond to another call later. But is downtown in such shambles that it can't afford to make sure this area is covered when it needs to be covered?

nafco wrote:how can a place like bourbon street exist or 6 street in austin, and JC cant sustain a 2 block stretch without chaos ensuing? why cant we have nice things like a ped plaza without issue?

i think this goes beyond just booze though maybe there is more police patrolling the other places in the world that open their streets to the public after drinking hours.

How about not choosing to live on or near a street riddled with restaurants?

That's a silly argument as cityhall allowed this proximity to occur; planning zones of businesses with a 'night club' element next door to residents.Cityhall must take ownership for this problem and either they should of had an 'entertainment precinct' void of residents or introduced conditions for late night liquor licences so at not to cause an anti-social element to residents - Blame lays with city planners. It should be noted that restuarants in general, don't cause issues, but when a so-called 'restaurant' operates like a bar and its sole purpose is to sell beer and it targets patrons from a younger demographic, then that's a different story !

Posted on: 3/10 13:07

My humor is for the silent blue collar majority - If my posts offend, slander or you deem inappropriate and seek deletion, contact the webmaster for jurisdiction.

1. Always: My office has always asked and continues to ask for greater on-duty enforcement all over downtown, including specifically at this location. Last year with grant money we were able to give some dedicated coverage, but not always.

2. Last summer: We have been asked by police to put in a business curfew (I said no)

3. Last summer: We have been asked by neighborhood to revise the restaurant overlay to remove allowed density of licenses in in SID (I said no)

4. Last summer: The PM for the plaza suggested mandatory security guards on the plaza in each business (I said hold & let’s discuss first with businesses)

5. Last fall: We met with businesses last fall and highlighted the issues coming from multiple sources and asked for ideas to show a partnership given how bad the other options seemed. I threw out an idea “maybe you could pool your money and share the cost of an off-duty officer - that would be cheaper than being compelled to hire a doorman”. Overall it seemed to be viewed relatively favorably as an alternative to #4 above. When the conversation moved to “how” to break up costs (via SID vs. not via SID, all businesses vs. all businesses with liquor license vs. all business on plaza vs. all business with liquor license on plaza … we adjourned the meeting and said this really was their job to figure out how they want to structure as it is voluntary, but that I would ask to continue to hold off on #4 if they could come up with a way to help resolve some of the issues caused by the benefits they have received over the years (ability to have high density of liquor licenses, ability to remain open later, ability to have a pedestrian plaza, and ability to serve on the pedestrian plaza).

6. This winter: No progress made

7. Last week: We met again, still no progress made. We re-hashed 1-5, again. I asked who supported a curfew, 0 people raised their hands. I asked who wanted to remove restaurant row, 0 people raised their hands. I asked who wanted to get rid of the plaza, 1 person raised her hand. I asked who wanted mandatory security guards on the plaza, about 1/3 raised their hands. I asked who wanted to do something with off-duty, about 1/2 raised their hands.)

In short: - this is a voluntary action, can be taken or not. I merely suggested it as an idea that seemed a lot better than some of the others I had heard during a brainstorming conversation last fall.

- this can be paid for however they want as it is voluntary (among all 200 businesses, among 32 liquor license holders who've benefited from the restaurant overlay zone or only amongst those on the plaza itself)

- BIDs/SIDs/NIDs often fund supplemental safety services

- I continue to hope to find ways to get on duty officers assigned

IMO, it is in the business interest to show some concern and good faith action to solve issues their establishments are creating in the neighborhood they operate in, especially since the city has given them benefits in the form of the ability to have liquor license density, later night hours, the plaza itself and ability to extend the sidewalk cafe onto the plaza. If they don't that is their decision. They need to realize though I will not be inclined to run interference when people try to solve the issues via other means.

I am HAPPY to hear other ideas that are actionable and realistic. So, if you have ideas feel free to email me (won't be getting into a back and forth with anonymous folks.)

So how about giving these businesses a hard deadline to agree on a solution for this? Sounds like you have given them plenty of time. If they can't get it together, then move to an option like #2 & /or #3 until they can. You need to use leverage and are being too nice with them at this point. The residents who live near this have put up with this nonsense for too long while they drag their feet on trying to work this out. When will the residents matter? They have been patient on this for a long time, but enough is enough.

Another problem with the new density of bars is not only the rise in illegal parking in that area that is STILL not being enforced in the evening, but the rise in drunk driving that's occurring late at night...also not being enforced/watched by JCPD. When will this get addressed?

Pinkf222 wrote:The fundraisers/scammers are there every night, always harassing people asking for money. If they want to raise money, why not set up a table and people can approach them? That seems much more legitimate and much less annoying than the constant questioning I get every night on my way home from work.

The Penn State guys were decent enough and looked legit. Figured it was some sort of alumni / frat group, just chuckled when same guy crossed the street not remembering me and my contribution from 10 minutes prior. Probably not a good example.

The cult like group has the "save the world children" theme. I think they are just paid canvassers? Generally just walk right by those types... they are there frequently.

The fundraisers/scammers are there every night, always harassing people asking for money. If they want to raise money, why not set up a table and people can approach them? That seems much more legitimate and much less annoying than the constant questioning I get every night on my way home from work.

It's a pretty simple solution. The businesses that want to stay open past 10pm or so pay the $60k/year or so for security - or hire their own security that patrol the plaza.

Quote:

Two Boots Pizza owner Aaron Morrill described the required taxes and fees for businesses as "death by a thousand cuts." Evelyn Padin, a lawyer who also owns the Hard Grove Cafe, said she already pays for a sidewalk cafe license, a liquor license and for private garbage collection.

ecoindie wrote:However, this applies to all of Downtown not just Bars. No police for you!

As the Councilwoman stated "East District has been often running at minimum staffing levels (which doesn't provide for consistent visible presence. With retirements and new officers coming out of academy, they go to South & West Districts."

That's because large parts of Jersey City are violent dumps that need the police, while downtown does not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

However, this applies to all of Downtown not just Bars. No police for you!

As the Councilwoman stated "East District has been often running at minimum staffing levels (which doesn't provide for consistent visible presence. With retirements and new officers coming out of academy, they go to South & West Districts."

Part of the problem is historically JC enforcement on bar related quality of life issues has not exactly been strong. They trot out the usual excuse of we have bigger problems elsewhere, not enough manpower, etc. As they are doing now btw.

As such the bar owners feel emboldened to do whatever they want and will wait unil (if) JC does anything to clamp down on their drunken patrons.

1. Always: My office has always asked and continues to ask for greater on-duty enforcement all over downtown, including specifically at this location. Last year with grant money we were able to give some dedicated coverage, but not always.

2. Last summer: We have been asked by police to put in a business curfew (I said no)

3. Last summer: We have been asked by neighborhood to revise the restaurant overlay to remove allowed density of licenses in in SID (I said no)

4. Last summer: The PM for the plaza suggested mandatory security guards on the plaza in each business (I said hold & let’s discuss first with businesses)

5. Last fall: We met with businesses last fall and highlighted the issues coming from multiple sources and asked for ideas to show a partnership given how bad the other options seemed. I threw out an idea “maybe you could pool your money and share the cost of an off-duty officer - that would be cheaper than being compelled to hire a doorman”. Overall it seemed to be viewed relatively favorably as an alternative to #4 above. When the conversation moved to “how” to break up costs (via SID vs. not via SID, all businesses vs. all businesses with liquor license vs. all business on plaza vs. all business with liquor license on plaza … we adjourned the meeting and said this really was their job to figure out how they want to structure as it is voluntary, but that I would ask to continue to hold off on #4 if they could come up with a way to help resolve some of the issues caused by the benefits they have received over the years (ability to have high density of liquor licenses, ability to remain open later, ability to have a pedestrian plaza, and ability to serve on the pedestrian plaza).

6. This winter: No progress made

7. Last week: We met again, still no progress made. We re-hashed 1-5, again. I asked who supported a curfew, 0 people raised their hands. I asked who wanted to remove restaurant row, 0 people raised their hands. I asked who wanted to get rid of the plaza, 1 person raised her hand. I asked who wanted mandatory security guards on the plaza, about 1/3 raised their hands. I asked who wanted to do something with off-duty, about 1/2 raised their hands.)

In short: - this is a voluntary action, can be taken or not. I merely suggested it as an idea that seemed a lot better than some of the others I had heard during a brainstorming conversation last fall.

- this can be paid for however they want as it is voluntary (among all 200 businesses, among 32 liquor license holders who've benefited from the restaurant overlay zone or only amongst those on the plaza itself)

- BIDs/SIDs/NIDs often fund supplemental safety services

- I continue to hope to find ways to get on duty officers assigned

IMO, it is in the business interest to show some concern and good faith action to solve issues their establishments are creating in the neighborhood they operate in, especially since the city has given them benefits in the form of the ability to have liquor license density, later night hours, the plaza itself and ability to extend the sidewalk cafe onto the plaza. If they don't that is their decision. They need to realize though I will not be inclined to run interference when people try to solve the issues via other means.

I am HAPPY to hear other ideas that are actionable and realistic. So, if you have ideas feel free to email me (won't be getting into a back and forth with anonymous folks.)

How can we request for an increase in East District Precinct and for the City to do its part of the Pedestrian Plaza ordinance to have Public Safety enforce? I find it very disturbing that a large highly used transportation hub does not have a police officer always there. Especially, with the risk of terrorism not to mention the contact occurrence of muggings now happening. Do we need to wait for a tragedy to have proper and consistent public safety?