Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

They were a better enemy when we didn't know much about them, when they were just an army of drones looking to assimilate races and technology. They lost much of what made them an interesting and engaging species when VOY brought in Seven and had them defeating the Collective several times a year.

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Totally agree. Nothing more creepy than seeing the drone materialize for the first time in engineering in "Q Who?"

'Q-Who', 'The Best of Both Worlds' and 'First Contact' were the Borg at their best. The episodes because they were an unstoppable force without a face.
I think it's impossible to continue to have them as a threat when the episode and future appearances require a conclusion and victory over them. Same with the Daleks and Cylons.

Yet kept getting their asses handed to them by a tiny Federation starship...

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Same as what Kirk did to various super-threats, then?

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refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

Yet kept getting their asses handed to them by a tiny Federation starship...

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Same as what Kirk did to various super-threats, then?

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refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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Well he faced down what...5 or 6 god-like aliens if not more. A repeated type of enemy anyway. He didn't always win, as with Picard and the Borg.

Yet kept getting their asses handed to them by a tiny Federation starship...

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Same as what Kirk did to various super-threats, then?

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refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

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but it does matter-it changes the argument. The argument is about weakening an otherwise powerful enemy through over-use when they're defeated every time they are faced. You can't weaken an enemy through over-use if they're only used once.

refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

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but it does matter-it changes the argument. The argument is about weakening an otherwise powerful enemy through over-use when they're defeated every time they are faced. You can't weaken an enemy through over-use if they're only used once.

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Of course it weakens the enemy even if they're only used once, defeating them even once weakens them and shows they weren't so tough and the main characters shouldn't have been so scared of them in the first place.

It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

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but it does matter-it changes the argument. The argument is about weakening an otherwise powerful enemy through over-use when they're defeated every time they are faced. You can't weaken an enemy through over-use if they're only used once.

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Of course it weakens the enemy even if they're only used once, defeating them even once weakens them and shows they weren't so tough and the main characters shouldn't have been so scared of them in the first place.

Q showed up repeatedly, no one ever says he lost his menace.

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but it doesn't matter if you weaken a one-shot adversary by the end of the episode, because you're not bringing them back as supposedly intimidating adversaries for another episode later.

Q was never really "defeated" in his appearances, so that doesn't really apply. Also, he became more of a comedy character than a villain.

but it does matter-it changes the argument. The argument is about weakening an otherwise powerful enemy through over-use when they're defeated every time they are faced. You can't weaken an enemy through over-use if they're only used once.

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Of course it weakens the enemy even if they're only used once, defeating them even once weakens them and shows they weren't so tough and the main characters shouldn't have been so scared of them in the first place.

Q showed up repeatedly, no one ever says he lost his menace.

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but it doesn't matter if you weaken a one-shot adversary by the end of the episode, because you're not bringing them back as supposedly intimidating adversaries for another episode later.

Q was never really "defeated" in his appearances, so that doesn't really apply. Also, he became more of a comedy character than a villain.

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Yeah, it does matter. Because by defeating/destroying them you still weaken them. It doesn't matter if they show up again.

Q made repeated appearances, and no one ever claimed he was "decayed" as a villain.

Hell, Voyager does the reasonable thing and shows that the Borg were not the ultimate species of this Galaxy (which we already knew) by showing other aliens more powerful than them.

What reaction does the show get? That by showing that there was someone more powerful than the Borg (despite ALREADY KNOWING THAT) the Borg have been weakened.

It's moronic, it truly is.

The worst part is, if TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens NO ONE would complain that there were other aliens more powerful than the Borg.

Q made repeated appearances, and no one ever claimed he was "decayed" as a villain.

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Yes, people make the argument all the time. Minus All Good Things... the concept of him being a serious villain was over with Deja Q. Like the Borg, Q was played out by the time Modern Trek came to a close.

refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

The Borg are creepy to me because of the idea that they can take away your individuality and turn you into a cold blooded cyborg. The loss of ego. The loss of "I am" is a terrifying prospect. At least to me.

Now if only ST crossed over with Animorphs, and we had Yeerk controlled Borg walking around...YIKES!

refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.

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It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

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I agree, defeating the Borg was never effortless.

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maybe not, but Trek went from one Borg Cube nearly conquering the Federation to one SHUTTLECRAFT penetrating a Borg base and defeating them. How the mighty had fallen.

[/QUOTE]refresh my memory-how many repeating super-threats did Kirk face? My recollection is none. He faced several ONE-SHOT super-enemies, and several recurring non-super-threat enemies, but not recurring super-threats that he kept defeating.[/QUOTE]

He sure as hell couldn't defeat his tailor. Man those shirts ripped easily. Whoever made those uniforms should have been court marshalled!

As conceived in Q Who they're something like the perfect enemy - "the ultimate user". Interested not in the people of the Federation but their technology. It paid off nicely in BOBW but after that - once assimilating people became their entire MO and raison d'etre - yeah, they were pretty much just Space Zombies.

Overall the Queen was a terrible idea, even though it worked well enough in First Contact, the best of the TNG movies despite some annoyances like that and Picard's newly-found psychic connection to the Borg.

I actually think ti worked quite well, and that the Queen is a logical extension of the Borg.

After all, if the Borg Collective functions as a single mind, why wouldn't that mind have a single consciousness? It's quite plausible that this consciousness would occasionally control a single body, like a puppeteer with a marionette.

It seemed to me to be the antithesis of the Borg as originally conceived. I mean, yes, the Borg are indeed a single consciousness, but the way I see it, it's that very fact that makes it meaningless to speak of them (it?) occasionally controlling a single body - it controls billions of single bodies, all the time. On that account, no one body being more or less important than any other one body is pretty much the whole bit, isn't it?

I'm prepared to forgive First Contact as an individual piece for having it, because it's very, very tough to make a watchable action flick without an individual villain. But for me it marked the point where the Borg just weren't to be taken seriously anymore.

I tuned out of Voyager before that. I've heard of 8472 but never seen any eps featuring them.

ETA in principle I've no issue with species who are a match for the Borg (the Q, or whatsisface from The Survivors, if nothing else). I'm making my way through the middle seasons of DS9 for the first time and it seems to me the Dominion would at least hold their own.