Those are four of the very best linemen that played in the late 1990s to early 2000s. I don't know how you leave one of them off the list.

Jonathan Ogden is the pinnacle of left tackle play. He is arguably the greatest LT that has ever played the game. If he isn't a first ballot type of guy, then I don't know what is. I thought Willie Roaf waited too long. If Ogden misses on his first attempt then there's something. He could make the best pass rushing defensive ends look like boys playing with their dad. One of the strongest, most talented tackles to ever play. Flawless technique, and you'd never see him out of position or reaching. He was fun to watch. I've never seen another tackle man handle Dwight Freeney in pass protection when Freeney was in the prime of his career and just killing OT with his speed / spin move. Ogden was the only one. Just an absolutely dominant player.

Larry Allen is one of the best guards that has ever played the game. Again, he screams of a first ballot Hall of Fame player. These two, to me, are like having obvious choices of Deion Sanders and Jerry Rice. They were freak specimens at two positions where they were routinely the best players at their position. It's impossible to leave him off your ballot. He was part of one of the greatest offensive lines in the history of the game, and he was by far the best linemen on those Cowboys teams. In the same sense that Ogden looked like a man amongst boys, Allen looked like a mammoth man who pulverized litltle boys into the ground. As strong and as powerful and as violent as one linemen gets. Utterly engulfing. He was a freak of nature.

Michael Strahan is one of the most complete DEs of his time. He had ridiculous power and run stopping ability, and he also threw in a ton of sacks. He still holds the single season sack record and ranks 5th on the all-time sack list. I think there's a very short list of defensive ends that were better than him. Bruce Smith and Reggie White would be the only two I'd put over him with any conviction. He was also the most crucial part that the defensive line needed to win a Super Bowl. His resume is about as impressive as it gets. Again, to me, he's a no brainer, first ballot guy.

Warren Sapp seems like another sure thing, first ballot Hall of Famer, but I would not be surprised if he is the only first time finalist left off the induction list this year. He has a myriad of controversies post career, and during his career. Despite having a dominant career and being one of the most talented players that has ever played defensive tackle, I think he gets left off this year. I think he deserves to go in immediately. He was arguably the best defensive player in football at one point in his career. He was was the main difference maker in one of the greatest defenses of the '00s. He's the type of prototypical athlete that teams covet. There isn't a thing he lacks for first ballot Hall of Fame status. He passed the eyeball test with flying colors, he has the production on a year-by-year basis and the longevity needed. And at his position... He was the best defensive tackle in the game for quite a while. Next to Mean Joe Greene and Randy White there probably isn't another interior linemen I'd rank ahead of Warren Sapp. I hated him, but I respected him. Same way I hate Tom Brady and Ray Lewis. They're just too good of players for teams I despise. The Buccaneers of the early 00s was a team I hated. Derrick Brooks and Warren Sapp catapulted that defense from good to all-time great.

They're not running backs, quarterbacks or wide receivers with eye popping numbers or highlights, but those four are about as good as it gets when it comes to NFL players. I think if you add Will Shields to the that list of four, then you have a great class of big men.

Besides that, from what's left, I think Eddie DeBartolo Jr is a must. I don't think there has been a better owner in the history of the sport. From where he took the franchise to where they went to once he left... Complete 180 each time. He was a mastermind and amassed some incredible coaches and players during his tenure. The 49ers were the gold standard of the NFL for about 20 years. He should have been in on the first ballot. One of my personal favorites.

Those are the six I think are the most deserving from the finalists. The rest? Some more deserving than others (I hate seeing Andre Reed and Tim Brown as finalists when there were WRs, during their own time period, that were better players), but none of whom do I feel are truly deserving. Charles Haley probably the most deserving of the six I didn't mention.

Besides that, from what's left, I think Eddie DeBartolo Jr is a must. I don't think there has been a better owner in the history of the sport. From where he took the franchise to where they went to once he left... Complete 180 each time. He was a mastermind and amassed some incredible coaches and players during his tenure. The 49ers were the gold standard of the NFL for about 20 years. He should have been in on the first ballot. One of my personal favorites.

Pfff, no owner should ever be in the HOF (even though some already are). What are they getting in for, being filthy rich and writing checks?

DeBartolo's tenure started out disastrous in firing Monte Clark and hiring Joe Thomas as GM. Everyone hated him in his early years. But then he became the luckiest owner in sports in hiring Walsh. The team was on autopilot from then on. DeBartolo had absolutely nothing to do with it other than luckily picking out the right guy to run everything.

I don't personally give a **** how much the players loved him for involving himself in their personal lives and handing out towels in the locker room. They loved Morabito, too. It would be ridiculous if some sleazy businessman like Eddie DeBartolo got in before someone who revolutionized the game and contended with 2 different franchises like Don Coryell.

Pfff, no owner should ever be in the HOF (even though some already are). What are they getting in for, being filthy rich and writing checks?

I don't know, but on second thought, I don't think the NFL needs owners. Once again, your logic prevails. They don't really do anything but cash checks / write checks. Mike Brown and Robert Craft are virtually the same, and equally successful.

Terrell Davis is equivalent to Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson, Jerry Rice has terrible hands and can't catch a football, Terrell Ownes ran 3 routes and had no talent, Barry Sanders couldn't pick the hole his coaches wanted him to go through and now owners have no impact on team success. You're just a wealth of incorrect views on obvious matters.

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DeBartolo's tenure started out disastrous in firing Monte Clark and hiring Joe Thomas as GM. Everyone hated him in his early years.

Okay? Is this relevant to anything? Are you implying that because he didn't win a Super Bowl in his first year as an owner, then his tenure as an owner was disastrous? Why would you make this comment?

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But then he became the luckiest owner in sports in hiring Walsh. The team was on autopilot from then on. DeBartolo had absolutely nothing to do with it other than luckily picking out the right guy to run everything.

Yeah, well, he hired him when no one else did. And he promoted Siefert instead of going outside the organization (when he could have picked any coach to go to San Fancisco). There's another two rings. Almost every single decision he made was perfect. And he should be in the Hall of Fame with every other owner who has five Super Bowl rings... Which would be none. (To steal from Randy Cross).

And I like how you give him flack for firing Monte Clark, because it wasn't a popular move at that time. Or giving him **** for making a bad hire in Thomas. If he doesn't fire Clark and go through the dozen head coaches he went through in about three years, then he never hires the 50 year old HC from Stanford, who, by the way, had never been given a head coaching job in the NFL by anyone but DeBartolo. Nice way to talk out both sides of your mouth. Makes your argument very strong. That way you can trash him for making the handful of bad moves he made over 20 something years, and then shrugg off the litany of great moves he made as nothing more than dumb luck. Very impressive. You should be a professional debater. I bet you'd win a lot of tournaments.

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It would be ridiculous if some sleazy businessman like Eddie DeBartolo got in before someone who revolutionized the game and contended with 2 different franchises like Don Coryell.

So as long as Coryell makes it in before DeBartolo, then it's going to be okay for the sleazy business man? Gotcha.

I don't even know why you bother responding to my posts.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I honestly believe Reggie Bush has turned into exactly the type of player I envisioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

iamcandian lives in a cabin in the Yukon Territory and writes letters to railroad barons about the price of hard tack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan

I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRavens

Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

I don't know, but on second thought, I don't think the NFL needs owners. Once again, your logic prevails. They don't really do anything but cash checks / write checks. Mike Brown and Robert Craft are virtually the same, and equally successful.

Who is "Robert Craft?"

There is this guy named "Kraft" who has 3 rings in his pocket now...thanks to the lucky Belichick hiring. Of course, he deserves all the credit for winning the ******* lottery on that one. What a genius he must be. Took him how many seasons to win his first Super Bowl?

The Yorks have a chance to get one this year. The 49ers have reached back-to-back NFC Championship games. Logic dictates they must be geniuses and potential future HOFers if the 49ers win the SB this year and win another Super Bowl or two in the next 5 years.

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Terrell Davis is equivalent to Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson, Jerry Rice has terrible hands and can't catch a football, Terrell Ownes ran 3 routes and had no talent, Barry Sanders couldn't pick the hole his coaches wanted him to go through and now owners have no impact on team success. You're just a wealth of incorrect views on obvious matters.

1. Never said that
2. I said the first part, I didn't say the second part
3. I said Owens was limited as a route runner, and never said the second part.
4. I never said that - I said he wouldn't hit the hole.
5. I didn't exactly say that, but that's pretty much the truth. They are only indirectly responsible. Owners don't own teams because they know the game of football. They own teams because they are sleazy businessmen who became filthy rich. The ones who get lucky in hiring a good head coach/GM are the ones who win.

Meme time...

Quote:

Okay? Is this relevant to anything? Are you implying that because he didn't win a Super Bowl in his first year as an owner, then his tenure as an owner was disastrous? Why would you make this comment?

Because it demonstrates how clueless he was when it came to football. He made an idiotic decision for firing a coach, hiring a coach, and hiring a General Manager. And how did he stumble upon Walsh, you ask?

Why, Al Davis told him to hire Walsh. Gee, that Eddie...put him in the HOF. Never mind the cheating and the gambling and the fact that he never did a damn thing that advanced the team's cause.

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Yeah, well, he hired him when no one else did.

Because Al Davis recommended he hire him.

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And he promoted Siefert instead of going outside the organization (when he could have picked any coach to go to San Fancisco). There's another two rings.

Seifert was a terrible head coach. The 49ers won in spite of him, not because of him. He's the only coach in history to win two Super Bowls and get carried off the field in neither. The 49ers' players didn't respect him. Steve Young hated him. Charles Haley hated him.

And just look at what happened when he went to Carolina.

Meanwhile, after refusing to give Seifert an extension after the 1996 season, leading to the end of Seifert's tenure in San Francisco...who was DeBartolo's brilliant new hire?

F'n Steve Mariucci.

Other horrendously incompetent people DeBartolo hired:

Dwight Clark as GM. Once John McVay left (Walsh's right hand man, whom he brought on board when he arrived), the 49ers' drafts went to hell. Clark bailed and then did more of his magic on the expansion Browns.

Carmen Policy...to head the cap fraud department.

Oh, and let's not forget the 49ers' scouting director throughout the dynasty years, Tony Razzano, resigning because the 49ers wouldn't give him a raise.

That Eddie...just a perfect owner. Total architect of greatness and stuff.

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Almost every single decision he made was perfect. And he should be in the Hall of Fame with every other owner who has five Super Bowl rings... Which would be none. (To steal from Randy Cross).

Except they weren't. And considering how few decisions he made, that's probably not something you want to bring up in trying to argue he deserves to go to the HOF.

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And I like how you give him flack for firing Monte Clark, because it wasn't a popular move at that time. Or giving him **** for making a bad hire in Thomas. If he doesn't fire Clark and go through the dozen head coaches he went through in about three years, then he never hires the 50 year old HC from Stanford, who, by the way, had never been given a head coaching job in the NFL by anyone but DeBartolo. Nice way to talk out both sides of your mouth. Makes your argument very strong. That way you can trash him for making the handful of bad moves he made over 20 something years, and then shrugg off the litany of great moves he made as nothing more than dumb luck. Very impressive. You should be a professional debater. I bet you'd win a lot of tournaments.

Litany of great moves. Like what? Hiring Walsh? That's the only great move he ever made, and he did it because Al Davis told him to.

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So as long as Coryell makes it in before DeBartolo, then it's going to be okay for the sleazy business man? Gotcha.

No. I never said that at all. You really need to go back to school and learn how to read.

I mention Coryell because he's not even getting acknowledgement in this thread despite being one of the most brilliant, influential men in NFL history and a highly successful head coach. Instead of talking up a truly brilliant orchestrator, you hype up a sleazeball who didn't know a football from his ass.

George Siefert's record in Carolina has what to do with anything? Look at the draft picks made before that. Carolina was 4-12 before he got there. He inherited a team that was predicated on signing players at the later stages of their career.

In the three drafts before Siefert got to Carolina the Panthers drafted Mike Minter, Mushin Muhammad and Tim Biakabutuka. Everyone else was off the team within three years, or made no impact in the NFL.

Kerry Collins was a bust. Steve Beuerlein won the starting job, and under Seifert, Beuerlein had the best years of his career, and, actually, put up some ridiculous numbers.

In Seifert's last year with the Panthers he had the best draft, maybe in their franchies history, that eventually set the team up for future playoff appearances and a Super Bowl appearance. He wasn't given much of an opportunity to succeed and he gave John Fox a much more talented roster than the one he inherited. At the same time he did not do enough to keep his job. And he never struck me as Head Coaching material. But he was one and he had quite a bit if success.

Not saying he was the greatest coach ever, but he had a lot of success in the NFL. And a pretty good stint with the 49ers. But yeah, let's just brush that off and focus on his one losing season in Carolina to cherry pick what you can use to degrade someone. Joe Montanna doesn't get credit, Jerry Rice doesn't get credit, coaches don't get credit, then who does BoBo? Everyone is purely lucky in your eyes. Right place at the right time.

The rest of your post is full of your usual ******** where go on and on and on about irrelevant dog poop that has nothing to with the topic at hand. Like how you insinuate that every owner who has won a Super Bowl should be in the Hall of Fame. You're a waste of time. 5 rings. Need there be more?

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I honestly believe Reggie Bush has turned into exactly the type of player I envisioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

iamcandian lives in a cabin in the Yukon Territory and writes letters to railroad barons about the price of hard tack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan

I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRavens

Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

George Siefert's record in Carolina has what to do with anything? Look at the draft picks made before that. Carolina was 4-12 before he got there. He inherited a team that was predicated on signing players at the later stages of their career.

In the three drafts before Siefert got to Carolina the Panthers drafted Mike Minter, Mushin Muhammad and Tim Biakabutuka. Everyone else was off the team within three years, or made no impact in the NFL.

Kerry Collins was a bust. Steve Beuerlein won the starting job, and under Seifert, Beuerlein had the best years of his career, and, actually, put up some ridiculous numbers.

In Seifert's last year with the Panthers he had the best draft, maybe in their franchies history, that eventually set the team up for future playoff appearances and a Super Bowl appearance. He wasn't given much of an opportunity to succeed and he gave John Fox a much more talented roster than the one he inherited. At the same time he did not do enough to keep his job. And he never struck me as Head Coaching material. But he was one and he had quite a bit if success.

All I see are a bunch of excuses for a head coach who went 1-15 in his 3rd year with the team.

Quote:

Not saying he was the greatest coach ever, but he had a lot of success in the NFL. And a pretty good stint with the 49ers. But yeah, let's just brush that off and focus on his one losing season in Carolina to cherry pick what you can use to degrade someone. Joe Montanna doesn't get credit, Jerry Rice doesn't get credit, coaches don't get credit, then who does BoBo? Everyone is purely lucky in your eyes. Right place at the right time.

Except, as I noted, his players didn't like or respect him. You don't know about this because you're not a 49ers fan. The 49ers thought so little of him that DeBartolo chose not to give him an extension after the 49ers lost in the divisional round of the playoffs against the Packers in 1996, effectively ending his tenure with the team.

The owner you praised so much for hiring him was also the one who ultimately decided Seifert wasn't the guy. It should also be noted that Seifert was on the hot seat coming into the 1994 season. If the 49ers hadn't won the Super Bowl that year, Seifert would have hit the road.

Quote:

The rest of your post is full of your usual ******** where go on and on and on about irrelevant dog poop that has nothing to with the topic at hand. Like how you insinuate that every owner who has won a Super Bowl should be in the Hall of Fame. You're a waste of time. 5 rings. Need there be more?

It's relevant to stuff you stated. How in the world could you be so dense not to grasp that?

Oh, I know...Lurie choked in the press box in the clutch. He started choking on his bottled water in the big moments, and he didn't clap effectively enough in big games. DeBartolo stepped up in the press box in a big way when the 49ers were winning all those Super Bowls.

All I see are a bunch of excuses for a head coach who went 1-15 in his 3rd year with the team.

Look at his career record. Look at what he did when he had talent. He walked into a franchise that made no impact in the draft in the first four years of their existence. They drafted three quality starters. Collins gave them a quality year, maybe two, but they released him after three years. The Panthers had mild success under Capers because of their free agents. Veteran players who had enough in the tank for one good season.

But the roster was depleted by Siefert's first season. Hard to have success. No matter who the coach is. The Panthers gave him too much power based on his lofty reputation and brand name. He made personnel moves and tried to follow in their footsteps by signing guys who should have been retired (Reggie White, Chuck Smith).

12 of the 22 starters during the Panthers Super Bowl were players drafted or signed by Siefert. That's over half the team during his three years. And most of their star players (Steve Smith, Kris Jenkins, Dan Morgan, Mike Rucker). That's pretty impressive considering his rocky start and his poor management of the QB situation. It's also believed that he came back out of retirement for the money and that he quickly became disinterested after the first two years.

And that goes without mentioning the thug he had in Rae Carruth. No other head coach or organization has ever had to deal with a POS of that magnitude.

Quote:

Except, as I noted, his players didn't like or respect him. You don't know about this because you're not a 49ers fan. The 49ers thought so little of him that DeBartolo chose not to give him an extension after the 49ers lost in the divisional round of the playoffs against the Packers in 1996, effectively ending his tenure with the team.

They didn't respect him? Really? Probably not the best word to use. Sefiert was a loner and a cold person. He wasn't a players coach. He was the polar opposite of Bill Walsh who was a players coach and great motivator / teacher. He befriended them. They didn't like him? I don't think anyone did. Maybe with the exception of reporters.

But the 49ers thought so little of him? How long did he coach for the team? Almost 20 years? Pretty weird that someone thought so little of was kept for so long. amiright?

Like I said previously. He wasn't really head coaching material, but he had a lot of success. He was a very good defensive coordinator and led some great 49ers defenses. I'm not calling him a Hall of Fame Head Coach and I would never make an argument for him. But it certainly wasn't a bad move by DeBartolo to promote him. He got two rings out of it. And maybe two of the greatest teams to ever play the game.

Quote:

The owner you praised so much for hiring him was also the one who ultimately decided Seifert wasn't the guy. It should also be noted that Seifert was on the hot seat coming into the 1994 season. If the 49ers hadn't won the Super Bowl that year, Seifert would have hit the road.

What are you talking about? How is that making your case? You have to focus on every negative of someones career to bash them. I get it. I like how you also act like he was on the hot seat for his coaching. When it had nothing to do with his ability to coach. Do you know that he retired from the 49ers with the best winning percentage by any head coach in history? Despite bing a compete weirdo who didn't care about his players.

Your opinion on owners not being worthy of the Hall of Fame is a different topic. They're allowed to be voted in. If they've voted owners in and they're candidates, then DeBartolo should be in there. I don't make the rules. You want to make your own rules and that's fine, but he's a candidate. And he should go in. End of story.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I honestly believe Reggie Bush has turned into exactly the type of player I envisioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

iamcandian lives in a cabin in the Yukon Territory and writes letters to railroad barons about the price of hard tack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan

I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRavens

Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

Look at his career record. Look at what he did when he had talent. He walked into a franchise that made no impact in the draft in the first four years of their existence. They drafted three quality starters. Collins gave them a quality year, maybe two, but they released him after three years. The Panthers had mild success under Capers because of their free agents. Veteran players who had enough in the tank for one good season.

But the roster was depleted by Siefert's first season. Hard to have success. No matter who the coach is. The Panthers gave him too much power based on his lofty reputation and brand name. He made personnel moves and tried to follow in their footsteps by signing guys who should have been retired (Reggie White, Chuck Smith).

12 of the 22 starters during the Panthers Super Bowl were players drafted or signed by Siefert. That's over half the team during his three years. And most of their star players (Steve Smith, Kris Jenkins, Dan Morgan, Mike Rucker). That's pretty impressive considering his rocky start and his poor management of the QB situation. It's also believed that he came back out of retirement for the money and that he quickly became disinterested after the first two years.

And that goes without mentioning the thug he had in Rae Carruth. No other head coach or organization has ever had to deal with a POS of that magnitude.

Most of their star players? You listed 4 players, and that list includes a concussion machine at linebacker.

Who was the coach when they signed Stephen Davis? When they drafted Julius Peppers? Will Witherspoon? Jordan Gross?

You may as well rave about John Fox.

Some of those starters that carried over from Seifert were mediocre players who just filled in for the time being.

We can play this game with a number of terrible coaches.

Mike Nolan was a coach with tons of power when the 49ers drafted Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Patrick Willis, Joe Staley, Dashon Goldson, Ray McDonald, and signed Justin Smith.

Rich Kotite was the Jets' coach when they drafted Hugh Douglas and Keyshawn Johnson, signed Wayne Chrebet as an UDFA, and acquired Otis Smith.

Ray Rhodes was the Eagles' coach when they drafted Brian Dawkins, Duce Staley, Bobby Taylor, traded for Hugh Douglas, and signed Al Harris.

Being part of bringing in a few good players during your tenure as a coach doesn't make you a good head coach.

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They didn't respect him? Really? Probably not the best word to use. Sefiert was a loner and a cold person. He wasn't a players coach. He was the polar opposite of Bill Walsh who was a players coach and great motivator / teacher. He befriended them. They didn't like him? I don't think anyone did. Maybe with the exception of reporters.

But the 49ers thought so little of him? How long did he coach for the team? Almost 20 years? Pretty weird that someone thought so little of was kept for so long. amiright?

He was a good defensive coordinator. You, on the other hand, praised Eddie DeBartolo for hiring him as a head coach, rather than looking outside the organization. Seifert was a lousy head coach. He stopped doing the X's and O's on defense once he took over the head coaching role, and the defense wound up turning to **** by 1993, thanks to his idea of what the defense should look like (switching to the 4-3, poor draft selections, etc.).

The 49ers then went out and splurged on big name defensive free agents in 1994, and they experienced a resurgence.

And no, they truly didn't respect him. Steve Young stated at the 1995 Pro Bowl, "we can pretty much coach ourselves." Young hated Seifert and only Gary Kubiak stood between George Seifert's face and Steve Young's fist in the 1994 game against the Eagles.

Charles Haley hated Seifert and took a swing on him in a team meeting. He was traded to Dallas in the off-season.

Tim McKyer's career basically came to an end during the 1989 season after an argument on a team flight. He was reactivated late in the season after an indefinite suspension, then traded in the off-season.

Seifert didn't do offense, and he stopped doing defense when he took the HC reigns. He's pretty much the only HC in history to not get carried off the field after winning the SB. And it happened twice, at that.

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Like I said previously. He wasn't really head coaching material, but he had a lot of success. He was a very good defensive coordinator and led some great 49ers defenses. I'm not calling him a Hall of Fame Head Coach and I would never make an argument for him. But it certainly wasn't a bad move by DeBartolo to promote him. He got two rings out of it. And maybe two of the greatest teams to ever play the game.

But you credited Eddie DeBartolo for hiring him as the head coach. What gives?

Eddie DeBartolo had one great HC hire in his career - Walsh.

Now, if DeBartolo had canned Seifert after winning the 94 Super Bowl to promote Shanahan to HC and prevent him from leaving for Denver...that would've been brilliant and ballsy.

Quote:

What are you talking about? How is that making your case? You have to focus on every negative of someones career to bash them. I get it. I like how you also act like he was on the hot seat for his coaching. When it had nothing to do with his ability to coach. Do you know that he retired from the 49ers with the best winning percentage by any head coach in history? Despite bing a compete weirdo who didn't care about his players.

The 49ers' winning during his tenure had nothing to do with him. That's the point. They'd stacked their roster so brilliantly under Walsh/McVay that Seifert could stand on the sidelines with his arms folded and the team would be just fine. Plus, every top available assistant wanted to coach on the 49ers. Shanahan was highly coveted in 1992, but chose SF, and when asked why, stated, "Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Steve Young, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman."

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I would say there is a big difference.

Your opinion on owners not being worthy of the Hall of Fame is a different topic. They're allowed to be voted in. If they've voted owners in and they're candidates, then DeBartolo should be in there. I don't make the rules. You want to make your own rules and that's fine, but he's a candidate. And he should go in. End of story.

But why should he be voted in now, when there are so many players and coaches who deserve to be in before any owner?

Most of their star players? You listed 4 players, and that list includes a concussion machine at linebacker.

Who was the coach when they signed Stephen Davis? When they drafted Julius Peppers? Will Witherspoon? Jordan Gross?

You may as well rave about John Fox.

Some of those starters that carried over from Seifert were mediocre players who just filled in for the time being.

We can play this game with a number of terrible coaches.

Mike Nolan was a coach with tons of power when the 49ers drafted Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Patrick Willis, Joe Staley, Dashon Goldson, Ray McDonald, and signed Justin Smith.

Rich Kotite was the Jets' coach when they drafted Hugh Douglas and Keyshawn Johnson, signed Wayne Chrebet as an UDFA, and acquired Otis Smith.

Ray Rhodes was the Eagles' coach when they drafted Brian Dawkins, Duce Staley, Bobby Taylor, traded for Hugh Douglas, and signed Al Harris.

Being part of bringing in a few good players during your tenure as a coach doesn't make you a good head coach.

He was a good defensive coordinator. You, on the other hand, praised Eddie DeBartolo for hiring him as a head coach, rather than looking outside the organization. Seifert was a lousy head coach. He stopped doing the X's and O's on defense once he took over the head coaching role, and the defense wound up turning to **** by 1993, thanks to his idea of what the defense should look like (switching to the 4-3, poor draft selections, etc.).

The 49ers then went out and splurged on big name defensive free agents in 1994, and they experienced a resurgence.

And no, they truly didn't respect him. Steve Young stated at the 1995 Pro Bowl, "we can pretty much coach ourselves." Young hated Seifert and only Gary Kubiak stood between George Seifert's face and Steve Young's fist in the 1994 game against the Eagles.

Charles Haley hated Seifert and took a swing on him in a team meeting. He was traded to Dallas in the off-season.

Tim McKyer's career basically came to an end during the 1989 season after an argument on a team flight. He was reactivated late in the season after an indefinite suspension, then traded in the off-season.

Seifert didn't do offense, and he stopped doing defense when he took the HC reigns. He's pretty much the only HC in history to not get carried off the field after winning the SB. And it happened twice, at that.

But you credited Eddie DeBartolo for hiring him as the head coach. What gives?

Eddie DeBartolo had one great HC hire in his career - Walsh.

Now, if DeBartolo had canned Seifert after winning the 94 Super Bowl to promote Shanahan to HC and prevent him from leaving for Denver...that would've been brilliant and ballsy.

The 49ers' winning during his tenure had nothing to do with him. That's the point. They'd stacked their roster so brilliantly under Walsh/McVay that Seifert could stand on the sidelines with his arms folded and the team would be just fine. Plus, every top available assistant wanted to coach on the 49ers. Shanahan was highly coveted in 1992, but chose SF, and when asked why, stated, "Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Steve Young, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman."

But why should he be voted in now, when there are so many players and coaches who deserve to be in before any owner?

Wow. This thread is now a George Siefert thread. You're incredible. I don't know why I'm even bothering, but... I'll just leave it at this.

You missed my point. I was showing that despite having a 1-15 team, Siefert still made moves and draft picks that improved that roster. And, like I said, he left Fox with a more talented team than the one he inherited.

Saying Charles Haley hated Siefert really doesn't do anything. He ****** with everyone and Montana was scared of him. Did you know that he was utterly insane? Not being liked? I agree with. I don't know of anyone who liked him. Respected? Yes, even feared by some. He would cut or trade just anout anyone at the drop of a hat.

The '94 draft also helped quite a bit. William Floyd and Bryant Young were much needed players. Lee Woodall was another gem that he found. But he brought in a lot of important players prior to that like Merton Hanks, Dana Stubbefield, Ricky Watters and Eric Davis. Those were some damn good players coupled with their mass free agent signings. But if you don't want to give him any credit, then don't. I don't really care. We can just give it to Eddie DeBartolo Jr. Who should be in the Hall of Fame.

I credited DeBartolo with promoting him because his coaching in year one directly led to a Super Bowl. Bill Walsh received all the credit. Siefert made his players think they were good enough to win a Super Bowl, and that it wasn't all because of Bill Walsh. They bought into it. And maybe because it was true. It was a great team. And he won with them. And then he won with a completely different team in '94. It worked out twice and he won a lot of games. It was a good hire. Promoting Shanahan... I agree, it would have been a better move, but you don't fire a guy who just won you a Super Bowl. That's never happened and it most likely never will.

Oh, and if you could, list the last five Super Bowl head coaches to be carried off the field. I'd be interested to see how long ago those coaches are from. I don't remember Tomlin being carried off. I don't remember Belichick being carried off. Not Mike McCarthy. How about Mike Shanahan? I'd really like to know. Coughlin? I can't picture any of them, but, for some odd reason, you keep bringing it up like he's the only coach not to be carried off.

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Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I honestly believe Reggie Bush has turned into exactly the type of player I envisioned.

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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

I would like it if there were more successful black Quarterbacks in the NFL...

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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

iamcandian lives in a cabin in the Yukon Territory and writes letters to railroad barons about the price of hard tack.

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Originally Posted by GatorsBullsFan

I could possibly see Matthew Stafford Dropping out of the 1st round

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Originally Posted by GoRavens

Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

What's it going to take for people to realize that Terrell Davis was a product of Shanahan's system? Does Alfred Morris need to hit 1500 yards this year, or does Shanahan need to turn me into a 1500 yard back? Cutting back into gaping holes with your 4.7 speed for 4 years does not make you HOF caliber. Davis would have looked at Mike Anderson's 2000 season and gone, "yep, I had a damn good year."

John Lynch...why is he a household name? The guy couldn't cover a book. He was a glorified linebacker and not even all that good in that area. I remember him more for getting his ankles broken in the open field than anything else. If Lynch gets in, Tim McDonald should get in. Not to mention guys whose boots he's not even fit to lick like Darren Woodson and LeRoy Butler.

If Lynch or Davis get into the HOF, it's officially a joke.

Not that it isn't already.

My picks: Coryell, Allen, Haley, Ogden, Carter

I'm a proponent of Roger Craig getting in, but he'd have to wait his turn.