Yes, its me again...I need some help..email from narc X

Ok...please could someone let me know what they think might be happening here?Sounds like hoovering to me...and I'm not sure his feelings are genuine.Even if they are...i cant have any sort of relationship with my X.And does this new girlfriend know he sent this message?

Little backstory-at refuge due to things narc X did after he broke off our nine year relationship.I left the house in a panic, and then a day later, he had packed all my things in to bin bags and told me to come and get it - via a text- on my birthday.His new girlfriend moved strait in- they were in bed together that night before i had moved out- despite him knowing i was uncomfortable with that until i moved out...he did ask..but went against what he promised.She had been using a present he gave to me for christmas.

He insisted he pay my phone contract when we were together- as i oculdnt afford it.Its now comming to an end, and at volunteering, he told me he has to cancel it-which is what i wanted when i had the money to pay for it myself. Only i still don't have the money.I wrote about it in Emotional flashbacks, titled Feel unsafe, simply having my clothes back at refuge- is this normal???

It feels wrong pasting his email...i just don't know what else to do..and I'm feeling quite alone...His email:Hey,It was actually really nice talking to you today, even if it was only superficial!Anyways, I was thinking on the bus, and I can't leave you without a phone, especially the internet - I know how much you love Youtube and stuff.I've took out a sim-only contract for you, so you get to keep the same number, although what you get will be slightly different.

You now get:200 minutes,Unlimited Data (30 gb of which you can use with personal hotspot)Unlimited texts.Actually, I think the only bit which changes is your minutes.Anyways, I'm not sure what sort of shape your phone is in, so I'm going t get you an iPhone 6 if youll let me.

I don't want anything for either the contract or the phone, call it a christmas present or something.

Anyways, what I said before still stands: I am here for you if you ever need anything, and for what it's worth, I miss you.

Hope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.Take care,XX

He cant see that what he did was wrong, when i went to therapy to change my behaviour towards him. He misses me? It seemed like he couldn't wait to get rid of me.I don't know what to do about this. I don't want him to pay. Never again will i rely on him to help me out with anything...and i wish i never did.I told him thanks, but that i just don't trust that he will pay it (and its not his job).

Ok...please could someone let me know what they think might be happening here?Sounds like hoovering to me...and I'm not sure his feelings are genuine.Even if they are...i cant have any sort of relationship with my X.And does this new girlfriend know he sent this message?

IMHO, the answer to your (understandable) dilemma lies in the bolded part.

I'll dissect his e-mail, as I read it. Which is of course my subjective take on it. With my Narc-radar on full power. Mind you, I'm a novice in Narc-radar training.

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Hey,It was actually really nice talking to you today, even if it was only superficial!

Reads as: "Hmmm.. nice... superficial... just what I want. Best.Deal.Evah!"

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Anyways, I was thinking on the bus, and I can't leave you without a phone, especially the internet - I know how much you love Youtube and stuff.

Honeymooning. "I'm such a sweet guy! I know what you like and what you want. I'm just the perfect guy to give it you."

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I've took out a sim-only contract for you, so you get to keep the same number, although what you get will be slightly different.

"So I get to keep her number. Anything could happen. Got to keep that (Narc) supply under the press of a button. I might need it some day."

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Anyways, I'm not sure what sort of shape your phone is in, so I'm going t get you an iPhone 6 if you'll let me.

1. Don’t negotiate with them. For emotional manipulators, it’s all about having, exerting and gaining more power. So they’ll always push for more and they’ll never compromise.

2. Don’t engage with them. Don’t try to talk, or reason, or discuss some matter with them - as they’ll try to twist your motives, and leave you feeling “bad”.

3. Don’t confront them. They’re quick to take offense and they love an argument. They’ll then turn and attack you – and never let things go.

4. Know your own personal buttons. They’ll aim to press your buttons to get a strong reaction. But knowing yourself well means you have the upper hand. Plan how to “not react” and to stay detached and calm.

5. Refuse to accept help as they’ll treat you like “you owe them”. You’ll then be in their debt – so it’s hard to feel you’re free.

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I don't want anything for either the contract or the phone, call it a christmas present or something.

"Great, I'll have her hooked at least until X-mas. That'll be the most excellent opportunity to hoover again. Hmmm... what will I text then... Hmmm... "Hi honey, merry X-mas. How's the iPhone 6 holding up? Enjoying it? I knew you would. xxx, X."... yeah, that sounds awesome. Awesome me that is!"

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Anyways, what I said before still stands: I am here for you if you ever need anything, and for what it's worth, I miss you.

He doesn't. He's keeping you on a leash until he will miss you. When he has entered the discard-phase of his current conquest. But even then you will just be a tool to get to her. It's not really "missing" in a sense we understand.

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Hope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.Take care,XX

As Maya Angelou has said: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." This bolded part sounds pretty ominous to me. And it probably proves the phone is just a tool to keep track of you. Mind you, all Apple products have a "where is my phone/laptop/etc" function. I can actually see where this laptop I'm typing this on is on a map. (I guess I have to have WiFi or other internet-connection on for it to be able to do that.) If he buys the phone, what's keeping him from using that function? Especially when it's in his name?Don't take the poisoned pill, I'd say.

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He cant see that what he did was wrong, when i went to therapy to change my behaviour towards him. He misses me? It seemed like he couldn't wait to get rid of me.I don't know what to do about this. I don't want him to pay. Never again will i rely on him to help me out with anything...and i wish i never did.I told him thanks, but that i just don't trust that he will pay it (and its not his job).

It's blatantly obvious he couldn't wait to get rid of you. And to get his new conquest in yourhis last X-mas present.

Probably the biggest "up yours" you can give him is to not reply, sort the phone/internet access thingy out on your own, and when you have let him know in the next hoover (which probably be in the vain off: "Hey, I got you the iPhone anyway, where can I drop it off?") "Thanks for your gallantry, but I got it sorted out already, bye!" and let him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you. He won't be able to control his need for letting her know how much leeway her leash gives her. But that is their mutual problem, not yours.

Oh my gosh Dutch, thank you so much ! Thank you so much for being here!You are so good with this stuff. I will reply properly when i can. Your so kind, i can't tell you how much i appreciate your ongoing support. I hope your ok Dutch.

Oooh, Dutch that sounds serious. It sounds like progress yes...You have taken an action to keep yourself safe and i think thats great.

Its sad that it is this way for you, and i hope you are not feeling too unsafe, though of course, thats very understandable.I am here should you want to talk about things...and I'm really glad you let me know how you are doing.

Hey Dutch,Just replying to your previous message.Thank you so much for your insight on the email. You brought up things that i would have never have thought of.And i want you to know, ..only reply if and when you feel like it. I know you have a lot going on.

I never looked into *hoovering* that much- knowing that its a possibility it could happen, but thinking that it never would, or that if it did, it would be years down the line when he finishes wth his new girl.You have always been here, and i know you had a good knowledge on narcs.

There was no much for him to gain at all IMO at the way i responded to him in our *superficial* interaction.

Honeymooning definitely. A term i hadn't heard before.He doesnt know, that the internet is my survival strategy to me. I need the forum and i need videos- watching narc vids helped me during the time we split

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"So I get to keep her number. Anything could happen. Got to keep that (Narc) supply under the press of a button. I might need it some day."

This is so super scary.Exactly. He is getting me the new phone anyway it sounds, where as before he wrote that he *will* he said that he will only if ill *let him*.

In the relationship, talk about begging for mercy. He needed approval and validation and to know that he was appreciated so bad, always doing practical things for me- well, things he wanted to do...and he picked a perfect partner - me, who was unable to show appreciation as much as i needed- despite his behaviour. I inherited my mothers reluctance???...awkwardness at being thankful, maybe because i don't trust others well.He has a very co-dependant side to him (and yes, i know all narcs are co-dependant) But he may have been in a way, forcing my appreciation upon him because he needed it so much.

And thank you too Duch for the link on how to deal with emotional manipulators.

The very idea that if i accepted his offer of a phone etc and him paying, he could do what he liked with it- could stop the payment - i knew that and i wont let him pay for me...but also..it opens avenue for communication from him even after i have the phone he gives me.And the fact that apple devices have a tracking device- that is terrifying to me. This will not be happening!

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When he has entered the discard-phase of his current conquest. But even then you will just be a tool to get to her. It's not really "missing" in a sense we understand.

It makes me so sad to think that, he doesnt care about this girl who used to be my friend.That if i fell for this, he might use me to hurt her. I already opted out of the triangulation via contact with her that i think he wanted to happen.

Even though she did what she did...i don't want her to get hurt.I even don't want her to hurt him..but in my angry moments- i couldnt care less- but thats another unprocessed part of me talking.

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Hope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.

Oh,...so its not really my choice! He is getting the phone then anyway!Its a bit too late, Where was he when he threw me out, and during the difficult times that have followed since i have been with out him?

It so sad. I havent been able to access any sadness, and for my own safety after we split- and for being at the refuge- i oculdnt express my anger- so it disappeared.I still cant feel anger and definitely not sadness properly at all-but the interaction and his hook- him asking me how i was the other day made me feel sad.And it feels wrong to ignore his supposed *kindness*, and its sad-but i know if have to do it.Of course, i wonder if its just my own lack of trust as he would say...my radar has been up big time (well-it always was)...but i worry I'm destroying friendships because of my own trust issues.Maybe i am- it was always both of us in the relationship..But in this instance - thats his voice in my head.I need to listen to my own voice regarding him and ..this situation.

When he says, i hope your *really ok*...it further verifies the fact that the other day when he asked how i was, he may have bene trying to pull on my heart strings.He knew I'm sure that i wasnt being truthful- because he knows i never am with people. He knows some vulnerable things about me - such as my counter- dependancey- not that he understands it properly.

There is still a small part of me who still wants to go home. Home to him. To feel safe, but i rarely felt safe there, and i know i wouldnt now. Arguments and flashbacks always came to an end before they would come back round again, and he wasnt always there and his apologies were fake. But this time, there will be no *going home*.I don't want to go home to

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*to him, to ALL of him*.

Just the part of him that might listen to everything bad thats been happening, and who *seems* to care- though only sometimes But i think that as it didnt come.. like it never came with my parents- i just gave up. not that i would have taken him seriously anyway if he had seemed to care.I gave up wanting that, and that want got disassociated away. I don't know if its the dissociation or my own trauma reactions..but despite these wants....i have kept strong and not needed him. I have literally given up...and I'm too tired to give away any of my energy on him, because i need it to deal with my own *.

I made my own X up, the X i would tell only bits too, and smoke as a crutch. I now talk things out to photoboth on my laptop- its lonely but it was lonely with him , and talking to myself has been more beneficial at it allows the honesty i could never give him, and sometimes feelings to come out.

Sometimes i wonder how i will live - (and yes, its all about my own needs- not him...)..if i cant go home to him and be able to speak the truth of things that have happened to me since we split...as that feels like the only way ill ever be able to get any relief and cry and release all that is inside me that i cannot feel. It feels like the only way i will be able to feel and let go a little the feelings that have stagnated and turned into numbness.

Im scared that if i don't accept the phone and he has it anyway, that ill have to have a conversation with him about it...and that he might spread rumours about how ungrateful i am etc.and what if he gets his new girlfriend involved and she says to me that he was only trying to help blah blah blah...(she said the other day i can have her iPhone 6 when she's done with it)

Dutch, i was wondering if you'd mind explaining this?

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let him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you. He won't be able to control his need for letting her know how much leeway her leash gives her.

[/b]But that is their mutual problem, not yours.

I don't know if this was too much. I think that there is just a lot inside that i need to get out. Maybe its all grief but I'm so blocked i cant grieve and apart from T who doesnt know this yet, i have know one to hear this ..but i think you will understand.

let him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you. He won't be able to control his need for letting her know how much leeway her leash gives her.But that is their mutual problem, not yours.

Im scared that if i don't accept the phone and he has it anyway, that ill have to have a conversation with him about it...and that he might spread rumours about how ungrateful i am etc.and what if he gets his new girlfriend involved and she says to me that he was only trying to help blah blah blah...(she said the other day i can have her iPhone 6 when she's done with it)

He will. If he is a narc, he will have already started doing this. It's hard to accept. I find it hard to accept with the narcs in my life. But I've come to know it's all true, and it will never stop. NC is the only way. And whoever will buy his manipulative gossip... Try to shrug it off, they are 'being had' by a 'smooth operator'.Even though it's hard to blame them, ignore them. They'll either come around some day, or they don't. There's nothing you can do either way.

Don't take her (this former friend's/his new conquest/supply) iPhone either, I'd say.

Thank you Ducth for the article.And you are right, the is nothing you can do if he decides to spread, and the gossipers, / believers...cant change them, not my right to. I think it just makes me nervous.

I told her i didnt want her phone. Thanks for the advice.Hum. another instance where he didnt follow through with what i said id prefer after asking me as he has/will get the phone. Stupid phone.

Just wanted to say thank you for the article and vid. that woman good.So many realisations - which i wanted to put down here, but internet faliour- they got lost...V helpful- thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------I know i splurged a lot of * all over my second to last post...dont know if anyone cares..i have so much in my head and its so tempting to get it down and out of myself, but those thought are creeping in again to...not do that. They may be based in reality though.i am ashamed...and that i tend to blab a lot. whats the point of this?i guess I'm saying that ill try to stop. but only if the reality that my head is telling me is true...

X spoke to me at volunteer place. Just happened. Not a situation i could avoid or get out of easily.He asked if i got the email.Said yes...not sure what to sayCant even remember what he said.I said that i told him the other day, that thanks, but that i wanted to pay for it myself.He said *no you didnt!* - *you didnt say that!*and i saw that other side to him come out- the scarier more annoying side that i lived with.He seemed really annoyed and aggravated.I ended up saying under my breath, that i cant do this.I cant do this today, not today...and he went all soft and said, ok then, ok, its ok, well do it another time...

Im so embarrassed about my reactions lately, I made an escape down the corridor carrying both the half made cups of tea i was making, and the milk container, and another flood of tears erupted from me. I went to receptionists office which was where i was going with the tea, shaking and crying- huge adrenalin rush which did not feel good - I'm such a mess.people said on here to not go to volunteer place anymore ,but its all i have left and it keeps me sane- and i cant stay at the refuge all day or ill go insane.it was fine after he tried aggravating me as he stopped it- until now. Ill leave if i have to.

The lady was like, oh whats up and tried offering me a hug.I turned away automatically and rejected her hug- afterwards i felt so upset about my doing that. If others hug me when I'm upset, i freeze and feelings vanish and i feel so stupid as i suddenly feel like nothing happened and i find hugs hard to accept when I'm upset.All i could mutter was that i cant do it, i cant do this head screwy thing again- never again.She was so lovely and said that it must be hard seeing him about. Brief recap to her as i felt so stupid..and she said that yes, i did say no thank you to him.

I definitely don't think sometimes, that i am in a good emotional place to hold down a job. So thankfully, this isn't one.

I feel like I'm falling apart. One of my worst fears is that others would find out. But i don't know what to do about these sudden intrusions of tears and anxiety.

I wonder if narc X...knows that i didnt say *yes* of accepting the phone?I actually said to him, *thanks, but I dont trust that you'll pay it*if it hurt him ... did he just block my words out?Its so scary when you know what is going on- you know what you said, and you know your being told otherwise. Don't want to go back to him if the choice became available. no no noooooo.

Thanks Dutch, ...I know X struggles with dissasociation- I'm pretty sure its disassociation. Definitely emotional numbness...and forgetfulness...and not remembering the past. At least thats what the used to say-he cant remember the past like i cant...and i feel terrible that it used to trigger me- his forgetfulness, so i turned into my mother as i would EF and would get so annoyed with him. Until i realised it was hurting him so i would smoke instead if a trigger happened.

hmm. if it was not what he wanted to hear, he may have forgotten it- blocked out what id said.But- he was annoyed i could tell...so i think he did know i had him on the truth there.i think he wanted a fight...Oh my god- and me being like...not today...and not sounding ok when i said it...i gave him my energy ..which is why he let me go...ugh.

Sorry, i have another question...hope its okayyyy...reply thought at your leisure...

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And it's not even that 'deep down inside'. It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.

You mean, he blocked out the fact i said no thanks...but - he can access that if he thinks hard enough...and the answer- but he wont want to / wont do it- because he's afraid of being wrong?So he does *think* i said something different?He is trying to fool me- but is he trying to convince himself that i said yes?

Trigger Warning ******

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And everybody thinks you're the crazy one.

I know- you pointing that out- just put it into perceptive...its absolutely crazy...how could this happen? What is wrong with other people? X (not his fault he's a narc)..but he does look stupid to me...desperate. And these other people are believing him just like i did...they are believing something that is not real...they are believing *his* illusion that he wants everyone to bleeive- he is doing it because i presume, he is trying to control my mind so that i do what he wants.* scary.This was why living with him after he broke it off was so scary..only you can *properly* see *it, this!* when you havent been *in it* for long time.

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The story you are telling is crazy. But it's his craziness, not yours.Good grief, I have to tell myself that every day.

Thanks Dutch. Its so hard when you have been around this...brainwashed for such a long time.

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Belief in your own memories, Sienna. You know. Nobody else but you knows what you have witnessed.I believe you too.

Dutch, its so incredibly validating and comforting to be believed. Especially as i know that you understand this. Thank you.A lot of the EFs lately have been around not being validated or believed. This means so much. God...i never thought i would receive so much support and understanding , and encouragement, about this situation...i never thought i would feel less alone...not even I of course, knew that something wrong was going on, and when it felt bad, i didnt trust it. So i couldn't reach out with the *truth*. Never did i ever imagine that i would be being told that my perceptions were not wrong, and that i should trust my memories as i was told that it was me, and i believed that.How things can turn around. Im sure you understand.Thank you!

Sorry, i have another question...hope its okayyyy...reply thought at your leisure...

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And it's not even that 'deep down inside'. It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.

You mean, he blocked out the fact i said no thanks...but - he can access that if he thinks hard enough...and the answer- but he wont want to / wont do it- because he's afraid of being wrong?So he does *think* i said something different?He is trying to fool me- but is he trying to convince himself that i said yes?

I find it very hard to understand all this myself. But somehow the key to this all is we can't understand it, since we are not narc's/cluster B's. Or Asperger's as in the case with my dad. It requires a different mind-set. No empathy will ever get you (or I) there.

Long post about my own experiences. I'll give you the "TLDR summary" up front.No, he is blocking YOU out from the fact you said "no thanks". He knows. And no way he is going to block that out. He wants YOU to block it out.He doesn't have to think AT ALL. He KNOWS. He's not afraid of being wrong, he knows he is. He's afraid YOU knowing he's wrong. If you would tell him he's wrong, most probably he won't even be surprised. He'll throw a hissy-fit more likely.He doesn't *think* you said something different. He wants YOU to think you said something different.He wants to convince YOU that you said yes.I assume this is (among other things) about him wanting you to get HIS phone. And that's all it is. He wants to have a piece of him ON YOU.This time it is "all about you". About you being his, that is.

Here's the long post about my own experiences. Or rather, a step in coming out of the FOG. A lengthy processI can only reply to your question with an example of my experience with my narc/cluster B (histrionic PD) mom. (quite possibly you're already quite familiar with what I'm going to say, but hey, I need to repeat all this to myself more or less daily anyway. why not do it here again.)DramaMama had an upcoming birthday-jubilee. Attention magnet! So she plans a big celebration in the summer prior to said Jubileeeeee. Which falls through as bro is going on a far east trip with his FOC that summer. So it gets rescheduled to next year. AFTER the actual Jubilee. I get a date. I bloody well make sure I mark it down. Not just in my agenda, but I dare say in every braincell I have. And every other cell I have to spare too.When I actually go over to her to celebrate the birthday (on the day itself, in between Jubilee parties so to say) she mentions a different date for the Jubilee-Festivities as I had in my mind. I say: "Huh? wasn't that at date X?" "No way, uHPD mom says, "its never been that date, it's always been date Y!" "Oh dear, I screwed up" I think. Oh well, no biggie, it's eight months to go. "Sorry mom, no problem, I'll be there, for sure. Sorry again for being not being even remotely concerned with the effects of my uncaring, inattentive and insensitive behavior." While actually thinking: "No way I got this wrong. Too much is at stake here."But hey, whatcha gonna do? Call her out? Its a no-win situation. So I budge. Fawn.

Next day I think: "I still only got all this in my brain, not on paper. I might have it all wrong AGAIN. (there you have it: questioning ones own judgement, based and backed up by memories). So I e-mail her: "Do I remember right now, it's date Y, right? I want to make sure I write the correct date in my diary now. Can you confirm?""Yes I can confirm, and by the way, you were right, it once was date X, I just forgot to tell you, and I also know how that came about, it's because you hurt my feelings three months ago." (well, actually it wasn't revealed to me that fast, this is the short summary of an our long e-mail go-and-forth)

So that's how close to the surface these "oh I forgot" tactics are for the cluster B/Narc/Histrionic. It's right under the surface, and I bet they know all the time. They just keep it hidden deliberately, since no-one can call them out on it. It's what's called "plausible deniability" in psychological terms. And the cluster B's thrive on it, and it's what drives us crazy. And the cluster B's know this. But they love that. It's what gets them their way.We go and they go . And when you catch them in their lies, they go and throw a pity party. Then their feelings are hurt AGAIN. Which to the cluster B only proofs that their original hurt, which 'inspired' the lying, cheating and forgetting from the beginning, was the right thing to do.And thus the circle is back to where it began. No.Accountability.Ever. It simply never happened.And you are the 'fool' to think it did.

With a bit of luck your Narc will do the same as my Histrionic did: getting caught in their own lies by telling a bigger one. Admitting one part and hoping they can get away by 'one-upmanshipping' that one with a trump.

The trick to entangle the mess is to say: "Ha! you just admitted to a lie! The rest you are telling me now must be a lie too!"In my case, the perceived 'hurt' from three moths before was a boundary-bust-effort by her I didn't fall for. Of course she was hurt! So she 'upped the ante'. By trying to make me feel I had actually hurt her feelings by 'forgetting' her Jubilee-date. Which was impossible for me to remember, since she never told me!Clever, isn't it?No, it isn't. It's sly. A different ballgame altogether. All this was not about me being at her Jubilee, but about my life revolving around her Jubilee. And she made sure I would keep spinning 'revolving' around it. Never to actually know what, how and when. Keeping me in constant demand.

In the very end, this story had an interesting twist.All things considered, I personally had decided to give her a big present on her actual birthday. A 200 euro present. The day after (the day of the e-mail exchange) I had told her at some point: I'll be there, but please send me the program, and then I'll decide what parts I'll attend to. A few months later she cancelled the whole event. LOL.