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So today they released a dev diary about the big battles, and apparently we have to learn a 3rd tree system in order to participate. Part of the reason I don't do mounted combat (though there are other reasons) is that I don't want to deal with the trees for that. If I want to continue playing the game at all I will have to learn a new tree system for my everyday character play. And now to get through the epics I have to learn more trees that have nothing to do with my character development? Or is it possible to just live through one instance of the BB in order to finish out the epics without grinding those 'role' things?

So today they released a dev diary about the big battles, and apparently we have to learn a 3rd tree system in order to participate. Part of the reason I don't do mounted combat (though there are other reasons) is that I don't want to deal with the trees for that. If I want to continue playing the game at all I will have to learn a new tree system for my everyday character play. And now to get through the epics I have to learn more trees that have nothing to do with my character development? Or is it possible to just live through one instance of the BB in order to finish out the epics without grinding those 'role' things?

I haven't done the epics yet, so I can't say for sure, but I was able to complete the Helm's #### instance without even knowing about the trees or roles. I doubt you will need to get far into the trees to complete the epic. My guess is that they are there to give some progression for players who want to do everything in the epic battles.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

That doesnt mean anyone has to agree with it, or like it, or pay for it, there have been expansions that did not require this way of doing things as well, so the argument "it happened before" is irrelevant

The OP's complaint implied that this was somehow a new development. I and others are simply pointing out that it isn't new at all.

Originally Posted by Andthelion

I would prefer something that was actually epic and not slow, dull and clunky, if their goal was to get helms deep into the game and make it fun, engaging and epic, then they have failed miserably, if their goal was to get it in cheaply, and then dress it up as epic, then hats off because they absolutely nailed that one.

I can't imagine a system that sophisticated - with multiple battles, multiple locations, multiple side-quests, multiple group numbers and levels of involvement, new skill roles and advancement trees, new and advanceable ways to interact with NPCs and objects, an entirely new rewards system and all the associated levels of rewards - could have been created cheaply. Hate it all you want, but claiming that it's a cheapo option is just baseless and - given the complexity of the system - more than a little absurd.

Originally Posted by Andthelion

Yes, but they dreaded it because they feared the onslaught of thousands of orcs, with turbines Helms Deep they would have dreaded it for its dreary epic dullness ( oh look at that it is epic after all ) instead of fighting off the invading army they would have been fighting amongst themselves over who had to go muck about with that godforsaken catapult, or who had to go watch the never ending meter fill up while they reload some rocks (allthough at least doing that means they get completely ignored by any orcs)

That is entirely a matter of opinion. To some it's exciting and fun, to others it's boring. Entirely subjective and pointless to argue over. But the Rohirrim will definitely have reason to fear - threat in Big Battles is geared sharply toward them.

Originally Posted by Whart

So today they released a dev diary about the big battles, and apparently we have to learn a 3rd tree system in order to participate. Part of the reason I don't do mounted combat (though there are other reasons) is that I don't want to deal with the trees for that. If I want to continue playing the game at all I will have to learn a new tree system for my everyday character play. And now to get through the epics I have to learn more trees that have nothing to do with my character development? Or is it possible to just live through one instance of the BB in order to finish out the epics without grinding those 'role' things?

You can play and participate in Big Battles without even glancing at the new roles and the trees associated with them. Although advancing those roles will greatly expand the level of involvement and success you will have with them.

One more question about HD housing.
Situation: I have a big house with 2 chests (60 slots, some 40 slots used). Upkeep paid in advance for maximum time.
Question: would I need to re-purchase space after HD? I.e., would I be given 15 slots for free and then purchase each set of 15 slots up to 60 for gold?
Sorry, if I am bombarding with questions, but can't find clear answers, like with purchased class trait slots & traits tree.

I do see what you're getting at. I was just trying to set out the order in which things happen. If I can try to put it a little more clearly -

1. Landscape quests do not become available until you've done most, if not all, of book 11. I can understand that you don't like this. However, this has been used before by Turbine, in terms of needing to be some of the epic stuff to get into Moria and Mirkwood.

2. From that point, everything is opened up, though if you like a lot of flexibility in your gameplay, you should be aware that there's more than a little linearity in needing to complete some quest chaind to open up others.

3. Questing in the Helm's Deep area is almost 100% epic quests, and it is these that require you to participate in the big battles. I have heard rumours that these capters will auto-complete if you fail a battle 3 times, but I can't verify this.

I appreciate you don't like or agree with this. I was just trying to make it clear what is required at various points, and what the gating mechanisms are. I certainly wasn't trying to be combative, or to dismiss yours concerns as meaningless.

your comment in #3 was very curious to me. It seems to justify if correct to me all I have been speaking of lately. I did not take you reply as anywhere near combative or dismissive so no worries there. so if I have this right, epic line is gated behind big battles(correct so far?), and a vast majority of landscape questing is the epic line(correct so far?), and the last of landscape questing is gated behind the epic line(correct so far?) then as my logic takes this farther... If the above information is correct, is that everything in this expansion is gated behind something? Is this correct? because these answers will help me decide on staying or leaving this game.

Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

your comment in #3 was very curious to me. It seems to justify if correct to me all I have been speaking of lately. I did not take you reply as anywhere near combative or dismissive so no worries there. so if I have this right, epic line is gated behind big battles(correct so far?), and a vast majority of landscape questing is the epic line(correct so far?), and the last of landscape questing is gated behind the epic line(correct so far?) then as my logic takes this farther... If the above information is correct, is that everything in this expansion is gated behind something? Is this correct? because these answers will help me decide on staying or leaving this game.

I think the easiest way to explain it is this:

1) To open the landscape quests, you have to complete the first epic book of the expansion.

2) To finish the epic story in the expansion, you have to do Big Battles.

3) To do the epic quests or landscape quests, you have to buy the expansion.

your comment in #3 was very curious to me. It seems to justify if correct to me all I have been speaking of lately. I did not take you reply as anywhere near combative or dismissive so no worries there. so if I have this right, epic line is gated behind big battles(correct so far?), and a vast majority of landscape questing is the epic line(correct so far?), and the last of landscape questing is gated behind the epic line(correct so far?) then as my logic takes this farther... If the above information is correct, is that everything in this expansion is gated behind something? Is this correct? because these answers will help me decide on staying or leaving this game.

I think Sthrax put it far more eloquently than I could.

Once you complete book 11 (which is level 85), all the landscape quests open up. In each of the quest hubs, there may be a couple of epic quests, so we're talking, say, 15-20 out of over 300. So, the vast majority of landscape questing is not part of the epic books.

Helm's Deep is a level 95 area, actually a sub-area of the Westfold. By the time you get there, you should pretty much have finished all of the landscape quests available. Helm's Deep is the only place in the expansion where you need to join a big battle - participating in them forms the quest in some of the Book 13 epic chapters, just like some chapters in Mirkwood forced you to complete a skirmish. Being slightly pedantic, it's more accurate to say that big battles are part of the epic, though I could see why you might think of this as gating.

One more question about HD housing.
Situation: I have a big house with 2 chests (60 slots, some 40 slots used). Upkeep paid in advance for maximum time.
Question: would I need to re-purchase space after HD? I.e., would I be given 15 slots for free and then purchase each set of 15 slots up to 60 for gold?
Sorry, if I am bombarding with questions, but can't find clear answers, like with purchased class trait slots & traits tree.

No, it's been made clear that you get to keep the slots you already have. So, if you've bought 60 slots, you will have those 60 slots when HD launches. There will be a couple of differences, though:

1] Everything that was once in two chests will now be in one space that looks and acts a lot like a bank vault inventory. It is accessed through one chest (so your house will only physically have one chest now), but will have all the capacity you buy. The maximum buyable space is 120 slots. There are multiple bags you can arrange things in and rename, just like a bank vault.
2] This housing inventory will now stick with you wherever you move to. It's your purchased inventory. So, if you move houses, you will take that storage (and everything in it) with you to your new home.
3] You will be able to access housing escrow right from within the house, so if you do move, you no longer need to empty all your decorations from your house. You will be able to simply abandon the house you are in. All the items in your chest will remain in your housing inventory space. All your decorations will go into escrow. You can then buy a new house, and your chest will be transferred to your new house, and have the same arrangement, amount of space etc as in your previous house. You can then decorate your new house by dipping into escrow from within that new house.

It's going to make it a lot easier and more desirable for players to move house.

No, it's been made clear that you get to keep the slots you already have. So, if you've bought 60 slots, you will have those 60 slots when HD launches.

Thanks for explaining the way the chests will work. For the bit I snipped from your quote, about keeping the slots we have, is there a quote from a blue-name somewhere on the forums, twitter, etc., that says we keep our already-purchased slots? I ask because that's a huge area of concern for everyone I play with, and I haven't been able to find an official statement anywhere. There isn't a blue-name comment in the thread on the housing forum about this new system.

Great, My buds back home have been dieing to know the new changes to chararcters. I loved all the changes that you guys have done to the game, Instances are great, Helms deep looks bootiful, and the changes to all toons makes the game more balenced for both creep and freep sides. I am eager to get my hands on a lvl 95 guardian in live.

Big Battles - not for me

I have participated in beta throughout the beta development and I can say that I will not be playing big battles live for two reasons. Firstly any instance that you can try to play or just go AFK and you end up having the same success/failure rate is way too random for my taste. Secondly I play(ed) this game to be a Minstrel/RK/LM/Cap./Tank/Warden/Hunter/Champ(whatever) I REALLY don't want to be an Engineer or a Vanguard or an Officer. I want to play my toon(s) which I have developed up to L85 with their respective toon' skills - which is something that at least I can within skirmishes. Big Battles just seems like session play with a high degree of randomisation and that is not what I'm looking for. Landscape and epic are fine until you reach Big Battles - after that ......

Thanks for explaining the way the chests will work. For the bit I snipped from your quote, about keeping the slots we have, is there a quote from a blue-name somewhere on the forums, twitter, etc., that says we keep our already-purchased slots? I ask because that's a huge area of concern for everyone I play with, and I haven't been able to find an official statement anywhere. There isn't a blue-name comment in the thread on the housing forum about this new system.

It was confirmed a few days ago, by Sapience, although I can't find the post.

Originally Posted by Lohi

Does this mean it opens up new furniture slots to take the place of the old second/third chests, or will these be unused spaces in the houses?

No. No changes have been made to decoration slots yet. There are a lot more housing updates expected in the coming months, though. Turbine has announced several times that they are working on updates to housing, which will come piece by piece after Helm's Deep is launched.

Originally Posted by Mercy_Me

I have participated in beta throughout the beta development and I can say that I will not be playing big battles live for two reasons. Firstly any instance that you can try to play or just go AFK and you end up having the same success/failure rate is way too random for my taste. Secondly I play(ed) this game to be a Minstrel/RK/LM/Cap./Tank/Warden/Hunter/Champ(whatever) I REALLY don't want to be an Engineer or a Vanguard or an Officer. I want to play my toon(s) which I have developed up to L85 with their respective toon' skills - which is something that at least I can within skirmishes. Big Battles just seems like session play with a high degree of randomisation and that is not what I'm looking for. Landscape and epic are fine until you reach Big Battles - after that ......

It's untrue that you can have the same level of success by going AFK as you can by actively participating in a Big Battle. I wish people would stop spreading such misleading information. I agree that Big Battles are a matter of taste; some people will like them, some people won't. But they do take a high degree of attention and interaction to complete successfully.

No. No changes have been made to decoration slots yet. There are a lot more housing updates expected in the coming months, though. Turbine has announced several times that they are working on updates to housing, which will come piece by piece after Helm's Deep is launched.

I would really like to see the links to were you saw this information at ..."There are a lot more housing updates expected in the coming months, though. Turbine has announced several times that they are working on updates to housing, which will come piece by piece after Helm's Deep is launched."

It's not that I don't believe you, ahh who am I kidding, I don't. If you had a blue name, then maybe it would carry more credance.

The only thing I actually saw that was changed in beta having to do with housing, was the new house chest changes, nothing more.

level of success at main quest at least in duo or solo is tied in my experience to what side quests you get. For example , everytime I did helm's dike and got the protect the statue quest I got no rewards as the trolls would wreck havoc among the soldiers after the quest failed. I also wouldn't expect more than an iron medal for being afk really. The main problem is the use of complex side quests in what is clearly designed to be a solo/duo experience. For example, if we were critical to the survival of the rohirrim soldiers we would lose tons of soldiers once we ran off to do a side quest. As a result the rohirrim have to be able to hold their own against the orcs. In my opinion , the side quests are the only place where we make any kind of difference or serious impact in EB's other than by clicking on things and either giving orders , healing/operating gear, or kicking ladders and ropes off the walls. Till the side quests come you could just sit tight and the outcome would be little different than if you try to contribute to the dps with the exception of hornburg and deeping wall were you have to do the ladders and hooks or your guys are in serious trouble. Also vanguard is a joke compared to usefulness of either officer or engineer abilities.

Welleg , Kelleg, and Gelleg - Crickhollow
WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

I would really like to see the links to were you saw this information at ..."There are a lot more housing updates expected in the coming months, though. Turbine has announced several times that they are working on updates to housing, which will come piece by piece after Helm's Deep is launched."

It's not that I don't believe you, ahh who am I kidding, I don't. If you had a blue name, then maybe it would carry more credance.

The only thing I actually saw that was changed in beta having to do with housing, was the new house chest changes, nothing more.

Like I said, the only housing change in beta (and therefore, for Helm's Deep), is storage. As for the other upcoming changes, if you follow any of the LotRO dev chats, press interviews or community updates, the information is pretty hard to miss. There is tons of info out there about it. Even just a quick Google should turn up plenty of results. Here's one comment that confirms what I've said, but like I said, there's plenty more info out there.

Beta

I've read a fair portion of this thread and one theme I have noticed is that the game has undergone changes like this before. Not on this scale. Not even close. They are basically redesigning what every class can do (or more to the point - won't be allowed to do), all at once. In one big update. And raiding - raiding (apparently) died with ToO.

I'll repeat what many others have said already: this is a huge gamble and reading this entire thread - I don't detect the usual comments - although the accusations are there from those who love what they've seen in beta.

I detect worry and genuine concern. A lot of people love this game, they're not all new/F2P players, and some of them (like me) have been here a long time.

No, the newer players will probably be fine, older players - a lot of them - this is, or very well could be, the breaking point.

I didn't participate in beta this time. I could have, I chose not to. I was discouraged the moment I heard there were going to be trait trees. I decided to level my third Warden and to go for cap without dying. I succeeded. I'm glad I did it now, postponing the inevitable as long as I possibly could

I'm going to give it a chance, but one thing that I picked up from more than one post in this thread was the word gated: skill gating in this context.

Gated content was bad when Radiance was required. I'm not sure how gating skills is going to be any more successful. I'm a lifetime member, but my journey in Middle-earth may be over. We'll see...

As someone else in this thread stated vis-a-vis their journey in Middle-earth: it will not be, if I'm dissatisfied, a rage quit. It will be a sad quit.

I hope I'm wrong. I'll know soon enough.

Good luck and good hunting to all in the new Middle-earth that dawns tomorrow

True character is not something shaped from without, or put on, but it is something radiating from within

I have participated in beta throughout the beta development and I can say that I will not be playing big battles live for two reasons. Firstly any instance that you can try to play or just go AFK and you end up having the same success/failure rate is way too random for my taste.

You obviously didn't do very well with the Epic Battles.
Helm's Dike solo.
You get a chance to build catapults and balistas before anything starts. This is to 'teach' you that things should be done before the enemy is upon your soldiers. As an E3 (engineer rank 3) which sounds like you never got that close, you can pick up a catapult or balista or a large barricade, and place them where they are most beneficial. One placing is near the Statue to take down most of the morale of the incoming trolls. You put a barricade down near the path of the trolls and a catapult on the right spot and you can get a lot of troll fight done before they even get to the statue. It takes practice to aim the cat properly but it is doable. Why is this important? Because the less the trolls hit the statue the less damage they do. Damage to the statue changes each 10% you let the trolls do. The more damage to the statue the less of a medal you get for that side quest. BEFORE you get to that area you NEED to switch to Officer and command your officers in that area. I chose to tell the the commanders to use 2h weapons and target berserkers. I'd have loved to have a troll priority but thats not available. If you manage to drop 5 trolls before they do any dmg to the statue you get a platinum medal. Each time you get a platinum reward to a side quest that puts one uh... rank? into your platinum rewards that you see on your 3rd tab. When that 'ribbon' fills up you get a piece of equipment (jewelry) that is an upgrade of the teal you would get at gold ribbon. You need 20 platinum side quest finishes to fill your ribbon. You can do one solo and one fellowship Dike a day. (you can do more but you only get credit for the first completion)

Originally Posted by Mercy_Me

Secondly I play(ed) this game to be a Minstrel/RK/LM/Cap./Tank/Warden/Hunter/Champ(whatever) I REALLY don't want to be an Engineer or a Vanguard or an Officer. I want to play my toon(s) which I have developed up to L85 with their respective toon' skills - which is something that at least I can within skirmishes. Big Battles just seems like session play with a high degree of randomisation and that is not what I'm looking for. Landscape and epic are fine until you reach Big Battles - after that ......

You can still be w/e during the BB. Healing equipment is important and you don't have to use the engineering spec to do so. During the side quests it is rather important to use both the engineering or officer spec with your class skills. For example: I was trying to get a handle on the new Trapper of Foes and I used that for most of my BB. The Deeping Wall - raw This shows a bit of the battle field, changing my BB spec on direction of raid leader and use of traps. You can also see our one mini building the seige weapon with heals, in the combat chat window) and why you have to actually have someone on the catapult. (red numbers as I view the scene over the battlements. This is a 12 man battle.

There is only one side quest in this video. Some of the side quests will wipe the battle if not attended properly. If you can hear the raid leader you will notice at the side quest he laments we have no healing so there will be a lot of healing boxes lost. That brings down the reward of the side quest.

...
Sig looked hideous so I sent it to its room. It can come back and
show off after it has thought about what it did.