Hello everyone, this is a question I'd like to ask of all of you guys. Over the past year I've felt an increasing uneasiness on the general consensus of accuracy between the various posters here. Namely I'd like to ask how much each thief feels is "enough" and what their playstyle is as well as the total accuracy in their various gear sets. I've realized that there is a large discrepancy in gear available to some of us so our views aren't always easily understood by others. I'm sporting a very acc heavy tp set personally, and I only realized just how far apart some of us are in our sets when I read the enky vs heca hands thread. I'm going to borrow a quote from that thread where meldi lists his stats.

Meldi wrote

Quote:

I have 355 acc in gear and stats and pizza, so 390 acc. I just added 12 acc to my tp set, so I should be at 403 with the bonus from pizza, which should put me at 94%

Now MY tp set is listed right here. I haven't edited that since I got my anwig salade which is ironically the most recent upgrade. Augments are following

My tp accuracy with my fane is thus 282 (dagger skill) + 50 (dex) + 62 (gear) == 394. If I added the thunder dakini into the fray I'd have 397 accuracy without food. My weaponskill sets have similar accuracy. This set also has store tp + 13, 8% dual wield, and 15% haste. For a while I've felt like pizza was overkill in a majority of things I do and for the rest of the stuff it puts me at or over the cap (397 x 1.11 would be 440 accuracy with dakini and pizza). There are a few exceptions such as ice dynamis and thief mamools plus Gods where that's not enough accuracy but I've been happily eating yellow curry buns +1 at almost everything I sub /nin to and felt the benefits of 5 str and 30 more attack far outweigh the benefits of pizza for the situations other than the exceptions I just listed. Thirty attack is about 11-12% average pDIF and that's a lot. And I still have pizza if I need it for gods etc.

Now I'm also going to ask what events people attend and their playstyle. Borrowing more quotes from the other thread the number of 400 accuracy came into play

Quote:

Meldi wroteWith the exception of Mamool THF/NIN in merits, 400 acc is generally enough to get capped or close to capped acc. I am not just talking about Merits either. Einherjar, Limbus, Dynamis (Except Xarc), lolNyzul. . . Noodles wroteAlso, I'm not comfortable with 400ish Acc. It certainly isn't anywhere near enough for mamool merits, or anything of similar or higher evasion (example: dynamis).

EDIT: In response to meldi's request I'm adding a disclaimer here.

Quote:

Melphina, in the interest of not being misrepresented, would you put in your OP that that quote about 403 being 94% acc that I was referring specifically to my parsed results in Einherjar, and not for general use.

I think that was a given since we've been discussing several different events and acc levels across them but since he requested it it goes here anyway

I get the feeling the two of them are in agreement on the issue of how much accuracy works where, but they play differently hence their different levels of acceptance on "enough" accuracy. Meldi specifically made an exception for dynamis-xarc on his accuracy commentary and noodles merely said that 400 isn't enough accuracy for ice dynamis and mamool merits or gods, which we already established as the exception. The thread also mentions Dynamis Tavnazia but Dynamis Tavnazia is to Dynamis Xarcabard as City Dynamises are to Dynamis Bubu, Valk and etc. Tavnazia is the Xarcabard of the outland dynamises so of course it needs more accuracy.

I don't have too much more to add. I just want to try and clear up what feels like a miscommunication on the issues of accuracy between people who have accuracy heavy gear sets (like myself) and those with relatively lighter accuracy ones (like meldi) and those who have a mindset specifically within the relm of true HNM and elite end game (like Noodles) and those who do a majority of general activities which are more burn friendly in comparison (once again, like myself).

Edited, May 24th 2010 4:38pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I'm currently at 386.5 acc (no food) which is pretty pitiful for anything HNM level, but mostly do salvage/limbus/nyzul/lower Tier ZNMs on THF so I think thats plenty. (although I drop down to 376.5 acc when I replace thunder dakini with fire dakini for those events, but always fulltime pizza+1 too so it balances out)

Of course I'm still working on it though and would love to get my TP acc much higher just in case I'm required to do something big on THF, but for now I'm fairly comfortable with what I have for what I do.

My /nin set is built for meat at most events so it's going to swing slower than a 22% haste build but the difference of 7% haste I lose from turban/rapp/homam legs is made up for with the combined 24 accuracy, 3% dual wield, store tp +7 (and 5 str/10 attack) I get from anwig, mirke and skadi's chausses. I'm familiar with my play style and event selection which is why I don't prioritize accuracy in the same way the pizza/sushi build players do. I gave up camping ground but I still have my salvage shell as well as a ZNM/VNM shell and we occasionally parse our ZNM pops. My accuracy is reliable on the lower tier ZNM's even with yellow curry buns and whenever I can't swing curry pizza is going to cap me. My accuracy in limbus was ~~73-77% with no food before fane/anwig/mirke/homam feet so it would be about capped after those additions. My accuracy is slightly low in Dyna Xarc with pizza but I'd rather eat pizza than sac 55 attack for sushi. Just like Meldi I feel comfortable with approximately 400 accuracy for almost everything I do (exceptions have already been listed). I still have my 2 minute Feint timer and whenever I feint a mob I've capped my accuracy for the next 30 seconds or until the thing dies and I abuse the crap out of that which further eases my feelings about my accuracy. It's nice to know what other people are doing with their builds and where they are (and aren't) comfortable with their accuracy with said builds though. Play styles really are diverse, and knowing what gear sets/ events others are rockin helps to see eye to eye a lot easier.

Edited, May 23rd 2010 11:21pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

This leaves me with 360 acc, 379 att, 18% haste I usually eat marinara pizza so I end up with:

396 acc, 429 attack and 18% haste. Obviously, there's tons of room for improvement. I use my thief for helping friends with NMs, Limbus and merits (I stay out of birds as I am tired of fighting them).

I guess when it comes to acc I am between the lighter and heavy with my food? Once I am done with maat's cap, I will focus again on my thief and how it progress through the new level cap. I only have 1 mil exp left needed for maat's cap. Shouldn't take long.

Sky gods are just stupid. Even using sushi on Drg (I ran out of pizza earlier) my hit rate was annoyingly low. My Drgaoon sits at 416 befor food and hasso, add on top bream sushi and hasso and that is 498 Accuracy and I'm still no where close to having a reliable hit rate on non-zerg kirin, byakko or seiryu+suzaku (when not dispelled).

For normal mobs. My last mamool merit parse was 84.13% with meat. That was befor I got Cuch Mantle but Hasso was up pretty much fulltime, so my accuracy would have been 408.

That's on a Dragoon. who has a+ skill, hasso on 22acc in traits.

400Acc with pizza on mamool in merits is not nearly enough accuracy. Without pizza that puts you to 367 without pizza (colibri). That'll put you at 75% is hit rate on colibri which is not acceptable for meat, so you'll have to be using crab sushi.

My last limbus parse on thief I was at 91% hit rate. I Was using pizza, but my turban/raparee instead of mirke/anwig. Comparing a drg limbus parse vs the mamool parse on drg, looking at the wyvern's acc he is about 10% hitrate lower on mamool. At mamool you really need about 420 acc to be acceptable. The parses would suggest 430ish, but of course they don't factor in feint on thf/nin mobs, so you're safe at around 420. Limbus is one of the easiest events. It and einherjar don't require more than 400-410 accuracy (for easy wings, you will need more for some wing3s)

My TP acc last odin was 90%. I was using Pot Au Feu and getting hunters. my accuracy would have thus been: 200+(77*0.9)+(94*0.5)+48+44: 408. Let's average hunter's roll to be +40. That's 90% Acc at 448 Acc + whatever the boost from Pot-Au-Feu is. Dispel is not a concern, I don't get dispelled (The joys of ja0wait)

As a general rule now I like to look at around: 410 for colibri, 430 for harder mobs (Although I'm only at 420ish untill I make some mroe upgrades).

Thats 372 with fire bomblet, which i don't use on most events. I prefer to use acid bolts on stuff like dyna. I also got full dagger merits, 1 dex merit, and i'm also a cat (if anyone want to recheck my numbers).

Well i've got 2 parses of dyna xarca that shows i've had 76% and 79% hit rate. On both i had pizza at start, but certainly didn't last long due death and i started to spam subs/buns (due deaths again~). I also use feint a lot.

The parse with 79% hit rate was after love torque, homam hands and probably homam legs. I'd say that i got 76% on the first one cause pizza lasted longer.

But i don't think this acc is bad. A very well equiped sam had 82% hit rate on the parse i got 79%. Idk but i think that a really good (excelent actually lol) dyna group should certainly have both cor and brd at their melee pts (merit style). And considering that a sam with ace's, hauby+1 and other stuff, got 82% hit rate, i see no reason not to buff the melees with hunters. With an avarage group like the one i parsed this (i had no buffs at all lol), the only way around bad acc is filling the inventory with pizzas lol.

Hmm all this makes me think i might actually join them on the next xarca to parse my raw acc without feint and pizza lol.

Stuff like salvage/limbus/nyzul i'm very much capped acc wise and i actually use my raparee instead of mirke.

I got a bit of god parses after those equip upgrade too. I'm usually around 66% hit rate with pizza with minuet+march (for some odd reason) or no buff at all (the usual lol) on anything not byakko/kirin.

As a general rule now I like to look at around: 410 for colibri, 430 for harder mobs (Although I'm only at 420ish untill I make some mroe upgrades).

Why quite so high at colibri camp? While it takes 407 accuracy to cap level 82 colibri it only takes 398 accuracy to cap the lower level ones. The extra accuracy is worthless on half your targets. I have 394 accuracy now and with 397 from thunder dakini I wouldn't even want to use cuch over forager's. I prefer 15 attack on everything over 3.5% hitrate on half my targets. I do agree that Sky gods are a pain to hit, but that's how s-e designed them. They shouldn't pose a tanking threat, they just kinda try to outlast you. I usually don't bring them into accuracy discussions because they're on an entirely different plane of evasion and don't fall into "regular" mechanics. They're the exception rather than the rule. I also agree that 370 accuracy for anything is too low no matter what you're fighting, but once you go that low you should be looking at high haste/pizza or general EM farming and such.

Maybe I'm just sitting on a gear set with a really easy accuracy threshold to work with. Most mobs fall into specific ranges of evasion where either you're going to be ok with approximately 400 *ish* accuracy or you're going to need a whole lot more. With 394 accuracy pizza puts me at 437, and with the Dakini I'll have 397/440 respectively. 400 *ish* accuracy is enough to put me at 90-95% hitrate on the simpler events and I'd rather eat curry instead of pizza when this happens. I prioritize fSTR + 1.25 and ~~12-14% average pDIF increase higher than I do 5-6% hitrate to hit the cap. This works for most limbus mobs, all city dynamises and a chunk of beaducine, most non boss salvage/einherjar, sea/sky trigger farming, Nyzule, lesser tier ZNM/VNMs, and it's perfect for colibri. There are a few exceptions in that group where I need pizza but that trend is pretty reliable. For the other non God scenarios I have to step my game up a lot and I'll need more than just a few more accuracy. But pizza gives me approximately 440 accuracy and that will either cap or almost cap me on everything else so I'm comfortable with that when I need more acc. That leaves me with dyna xarc and true HNM/Elite Gods where I'll never be completely happy with my accuracy no matter what I do so I just add as much accuracy as I possibly can and run with it.

Looking at the numbers though I DO think I'll make two adjustments. I think my curry build needs just a little bit more accuracy yet so I'm going to grab a cuchulain's mantle for my tp set and finish my Thunder Dakini asap. That'll bolster my accuracy from 394 with fane/forager's to 404 with dakini/cuch. That'll give me some squiggle room to tinker with a Flame Dakini when I'm eating pizza to see if I'm overshooting my acc or not, and will make me perfectly happy on my current curry targets.

It is. Noodles goes Ranger to Odin. Although that throws the issue of the ranged "sweet spot" and distance related R Acc inconsistencies into the fray. Valfodr and Ofnir are painful AoE's so I don't know how reliable those numbers are for him.

Edited, May 24th 2010 12:58pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

As a general rule now I like to look at around: 410 for colibri, 430 for harder mobs (Although I'm only at 420ish untill I make some mroe upgrades).

Why quite so high at colibri camp? While it takes 407 accuracy to cap level 82 colibri it only takes 398 accuracy to cap the lower level ones.

The colibri all con the same, you can't tell which is a Lv81 and which is a Lv82 one. It is better to be over Cap on the Lv81 ones and at cap for the Lv82 than it is to be capped at the Lv81 and only 90% hitrate on the higher ones. You cna't do anythign like save feint for the higher level ones as they all con the same and you don't know which is which.

In your set, if you are at 397 with foragers, thus 1acc off capping on the Lv81 and 90% hitrate on the Lv82s I would definitely swap in Cuch and be 93% on the Lv82 and over cap on the 81s. I don't see 15 Attack beating 7 acc for TP.

I also agree that 370 accuracy for anything is too low no matter what you're fighting, but once you go that low you should be looking at high haste/pizza

I din't understand this. If you're on low accuracy then you should be using pizza (instead of what... meat?) and swapping out to full haste build? swapping in foragers turban and raparee whilst eating pizza hovers around the 400acc mark which isn't going to cap you on much. ****, without pizza or sushi sitting at 380ish acc I'm still uncapped whilst farming water or diorite. Before I made some other changes, my last einherjar parse (normal wing) on thief was about 91% Acc, with pizza/rapp/turban/foragers, In fact I remember you telling me it would be more beneficial to swap in mirke or anwig over rapp or turban in that case to put me to cap. Apart from easy einherjar wings and easy limbus zones I'm just not sure I can justify YCBs over Pizza+1. Yes, you lose 30 attack, but if you're getting at least 15-20 acc from the pizza then it should definitely win, especially as in these events, being a DD, you should be getting either chaos roll or double minuets from our cor or 2nd bard. As much as I would like to use meat more, from parsing pretty much everything I ever thief on, I'm just not able to. If my acc isn't in the 90%s with whatever sacrifices I've made (whether it's meat, or turban/rapp/etc, or whatever) then I should correct it by swapping in either mirke/anwig etc or eating pizza.

For trigger farming, I tend to go with my feint setup (read: turban/rapp/foragers) and pizza. With limbus it depends on the zone, for einherjar it's pizza+mirke etc setup (If I'm a DD, I'm only taking thief if it's a W3 where they prefer us to sub /Nin, because drg/nin is epic fail) For anything harder, dynamis, non-lolibri merits, etc, I tend to go pizza+mirke etc and aim for the 420 mark. On drg too, I also aim for the 420 mark.

Quote:

It is. Noodles goes Ranger to Odin. Although that throws the issue of the ranged "sweet spot" and distance related R Acc inconsistencies into the fray. Valfodr and Ofnir are painful AoE's so I don't know how reliable those numbers are for him.

I bot. It has a function called ja0wait which means JA/WS/Spell animations never lock you to the spot. So whereas normally you have about 1-2 second lag from the slugwinder animation rooting you to the spot, I don't have this problem so am never cought in AoE.

For normal mobs. My last mamool merit parse was 84.13% with meat. That was befor I got Cuch Mantle but Hasso was up pretty much fulltime, so my accuracy would have been 408.

Noodles, there are explanations for having your acc this low at mamool camp as a drg, and it has nothing to do with not having enough acc. If you are killing at least 2 puks they spam both flash which essentially floors your acc for about 10 seconds, and shadows which can also cause "misses," is one thing. Also if you don't have a thf to feint the thf and nin mamools that aversely affects your acc. Also if your mamools spam Warm-Up and/or you don't have a dispeller.

If you have a parser that does it, check individual mobs in your parse. You should see with ~400ish acc that you are capped on BLM, WHM, BLU, DRG, BST mamools, @ ~85-90% acc on puks depending on which TP moves they spam, ~85-90% acc on Skoffins depending on which TP moves they spam. Finally THF, and NIN Mamools will wreak havoc on your acc.

Edit: Forgot to respond to your post Melphina

My range of events is fairly limited, I do Limbus and Einherjar for the most part with my LS, so pizza is a safe bet, I bring an extra one in case I die or something. I have been parsing for the last few months, and I generally am between 85-90% acc on a parse. I have yet to do either one since I secured a Mirke Wardecors though, so going to start parsing again.

If I were to merit, I would probably use crab sushi for now on birds, as I only have 368 acc currently in my TP set. I hope to finish my acc Dakini soon though, and eventually I will get Homam Pants + Hands, which would put me at ~385. I would probably transition to meat at that point. For other merit camps, I would be using pizza exclusively for the most part. I will start parsing though, to see if maybe I am comfortable with meat, I just don't know. At the rate I get gear, I probably wont have Homam for about 5 years though... :D

I don't have any experience with Dyna Tav, Beau, nor Xarc to tell the truth, most of my info on them is second hand. I had the displeasure of starting my endgame career with probably the most incompetent group of people ever, and after repeated aggros of the Death House in Windy, I swore off Dynamis. I have just recently come back. Haven't been back on thief yet, and only have wins in Sandy, Bastok, and Buburimu.

I parse most everything I do, and for me pizza has proven to be sufficient to raise my acc to a level I am happy with.

As for noodles' comment on the unpredictability of Einherjar mob distribution. I generally accept that I will be more or less useless if we pop a bones or slime config. We actually had one run recently where we had both. I don't really see what triple bats/boob implants atk down effect has to do with an acc discussion though.

Quote:

(If I'm a DD, I'm only taking thief if it's a W3 where they prefer us to sub /Nin, because drg/nin is epic fail)

Almost all our 2hd DDs go /sam to every chamber in Einherjar. /sam offers way too much benefit to sub /nin. If we get something with nasty AoEs, we just cycle groups of DDs in, but even then, we only have 1 group sitting out at a time. We generally have 5-10 DDs in a run.

well my shell has trauma with fluid spread and other sh*t that /nin can block, so almost everyone goes /nin. Almost everyone lol. I pretty much go either drg or brd on einherjar. And no way i will ever go /nin on drg, ****, I never actually used /nin while leveling drg. But if they did force me to go drg/nin i would start to think about going thf too.

Noodles what parser are you using? Kparser has a feature where you can break down fights finer than the entire camp. You can view fights based on mob type as well as individual mob. With 394 accuracy I'm at about 87% accuracy on skoffins, but the non thf/nin mamools I'm basically capped. Warm up lowers my accuracy upwards of 15-20% and hitting Zephyr Mantle registers as a "miss" even though you actually hit. Whenever I fight a puk that DOESN'T use Obfuscate my accuracy is capped, but when I fight one that flashes me I'm sitting at 50-65% or less for the same mob type. You're wrong when you say that 400 accuracy won't cap you at almost anything, it really is enough to eat meat at many events. Thf/nin mamools sucks but you know what? They're on a respawn long enough for me to save my 2 minute feint for. Yeah there are times they can mess with me, but I eat meat there nowadays and do really well. There are a lot of events where mobs play games with your accuracy. Skeleton, puks, Doomed, Sea Monks, Quqirns etc lower your accuracy while, tonberrys, Lizards, Rocs, Wiverns etc raise their evasion. In these situations the solution is NOT to get more accuracy than you will ever need, it's for the mages to step up their game and get on the debuffs and status cures. If your blinded you need blindna, if Pugils use water shield it's time to dispel it. Again quoting from the other thread

Tybudx wrote:

Quote:

Most Limbus and city Dynamis mobs put you around 380, same with Salvage. Bosses are higher, up around 420, and 2nd floor of NE Apollyon requires upwards of 430. Einherjar varies wildly, but 430 should cap you out there, as well. Outlands and Dream Dyna you'll need about 410, again with a bit more for bosses.

This is a pretty reliable scale here remembering that he did say "most mobs". 440 accuracy overkills many of the normal demons in Dyna-xar, but some varieties (thf, ninja, etc) shoot through the roof. The 15 nms suck no matter what and you'll never be good to go on them. Oh and by the way, Kindred spam Hecatomb Wave which means... you guessed it. Blindness!! This will skewer your dyna xar parses because you WILL be getting hit with it many times and in my experiences blindna isn't always delivered in a timely manner when sh*t hits the fan (it's freakin dyna-xar).

One final comment.

Quote:

Apart from easy einherjar wings and easy limbus zones I'm just not sure I can justify YCBs over Pizza+1. Yes, you lose 30 attack, but if you're getting at least 15-20 acc from the pizza then it should definitely win, especially as in these events, being a DD, you should be getting either chaos roll or double minuets from our cor or 2nd bard.

Yes I was talking about meat versus pizza when you said you didn't understand. Curry vs. pizza is more than just 30 attack vs 11% accuracy. Pizza doesn't add any strength. The difference of 5 strength (fSTR + 1.25) is about 3% increase in base damage across all targets (1 base D on 75%, 2 base d on 25%) and this coupled with a total of 32.5 attack (2.5 from strength) is about 12-13% average pDIF. Chaos Roll amplifies this even more and can turn 32.5 attack into 40-45 depending on the roll. The difference is now closer to 15-17% pDIF increase over pizza. Furthermore this pDIF increase enhances SA/TA which is something pizza misses out on. My base D's on SA/TA are both right on the 175 mark so consider using them with 1.1 average pDIF (pizza) versus 1.25 (curry)

175 x 2.1 == 367 175 x 2.25 == 393

that 26 damage adds up when I do it twice a minute every minute. Finally I watch my feint timer and use it intelligently. Whenever I feint something accuracy doesn't matter for 30 seconds. Noodles, you have 5/5 feint merits so I'm sure you can appreciate it's awesome power.

This is exactly why I created this thread. Several of us have vastly differing opinions of how much accuracy we feel comfortable with at various events. I don't feel the need to CAP accuracy if I can enhance my attack by a significant enough amount in another way (it has to be significant though). I'm comfortable sitting with 90% accuracy if I'm eating meat because I know I'm doing more damage per hit. I like the benefits raw attack gives to sa/ta abilities and It bothers me to render feint (my most powerful merit ability) worthless by trying to overdo accuracy on my own. This discussion is extremely helpful for me, please do keep the commentary coming.

Edited, May 24th 2010 2:45pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Melphina, in the interest of not being misrepresented, would you put in your OP that that quote about 403 being 94% acc that I was referring specifically to my parsed results in Einherjar, and not for general use.

Melphina, in the interest of not being misrepresented, would you put in your OP that that quote about 403 being 94% acc that I was referring specifically to my parsed results in Einherjar, and not for general use.

Done.

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I'm comfortable sitting with 90% accuracy if I'm eating meat because I know I'm doing more damage per hit

This has always been my dillema since starting to play THF. Do you think there is a definitive point before being at capped accuracy where adding attack will give you better damage output? Like I said earlier, I usually do lower tier stuff which allows me to keep on fire dakini, bomb core, and pizza +1 which will put me at about 417.9 acc. Switching over to thunder dakini and (when I eventually get) fire bomblet will of course give me a better hit rate but I would lose all that attack. Guess I'll eventually have to parse myself with both setups in those events to really see the outcome...

Do you think there is a definitive point before being at capped accuracy where adding attack will give you better damage output

It depends on how large of a boost we're talking about and how low your acc is. I prefer to keep my accuracy no lower than 90% (ideally I prefer capped, but if I can eat meat and get 90% ish I don't believe pizza is worth the final push). In the case of a near 1/1 ratio accuracy always prevails. Food isn't a static change though, and 11% accuracy can give me anywhere from 5 or 10 on the low end to upwards of 40+. Even if colibri didn't eat my food I'd eat meat over pizza on them because I would only get 13 accuracy from pizza on half my targets and 4 accuracy on the rest. In comparison meat is stronger. That's also why I wouldn't wear cuchulain's mantle there instead of forager's. After I get my Thunder Dakini I'll be capped on lvl 81's meaning cuch is useless on half my targets. In comparison, 15 attack is a pretty large chunk so it gets priority. If the best mantle only gave me.. say... 5 attack I'd go cuch anyway. 5 attack is too small to justify the difference, but 15 attack isn't. It's weighting potential gains versus the sacrifices to get them. My tp accuracy is pretty solid and my weaponskill sets are equally well endowed so I like to chance meat at many events. I take into consideration what mob sets I'm up against too. Einherjar skeletons cheat but many mobs don't spam acc/eva changes that badly and the issue is resolved sooner. Similarly I disregard flash moves because they're beyond my control. NOTHING can counter flash. Feint is to evasion as Flash is to accuracy, a parallel reduction. I'll never advocate ignoring accuracy or intentionally working with a crappy hitrate if it can be avoided, ACCURACY MATTERS. Weaponskill frequency and hitting more often is important, but getting more oomph per hit also benefits damage.

From what I'm seeing however, most people don't have near the levels of gear accuracy I do. With no food I've seen 346 accuracy, 360 accuracy, 372 accuracy and 368 accuracy, whereas my gear accuracy is now at 394 and will be 397 with dakini and could hit 404 with cuch. I've been using my own gear sets for so long I think I've lost touch with my roots and how difficult it really can be to hit stuff on thief sometimes. This helped put things into perspective.

Edited, May 24th 2010 6:48pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

You are definitely at a point Melphina where you have the cream of the crop in terms of gear. Essentially the only upgrages in gear you can get at this point until the level cap increase are AV drops.... and one of those will actually lower your acc by three, but it would increase your attack by 11 and your haste by 2. Mars ring is an even trade on acc, but gives you +8 atk. Other than that, there really isn't anything else you can get for thief for your TP set, and your WS set is just sick. That being said, when the level cap comes along, you have probably one of the hardest decisions of all of us, because essentially every new piece of equipment that comes out will force you to question whether the loss of the current acc gear you have for that slot is acceptable.

I think one good thing about thief, is that there are a lot of pieces of equipment that offer great acc options. between 4-5 slots, a thief can get 40-50+ acc in there. If I get lucky, within the next few weeks I can go from my 368 acc to 385 very quickly, which would put me 12 points behind your set. I am a bit more pragmatic though, and realize that my TH is definitely broken so it probably wont happen.

Lol this is why I both love and hate threads like these...I'm starting to really question myself and my gear setups.

If I were to currently compare myself to melph (as depressed as that makes me lol, but I'll do it anyway) just looking at acc and haste for TP gain she's at 394 acc 15% haste compared to my 386.5 acc and 18% haste. Now I could have a comparable acc rating if I were to say trade swift belt for virtuoso which would bump me up to 395.5 acc but haste down to 14%...would this be a smart move? Yes I know my comparison is void when throwing in other stats that melph has that I don't (attack and STP come to mind which gives her setup the overall advantage)...or maybe I'm delusional in thinking that I may be even remotely close to her uber setup...

Now I could have a comparable acc rating if I were to say trade swift belt for virtuoso which would bump me up to 395.5 acc but haste down to 14%...would this be a smart move?

The difference between virtuoso belt and swift belt is 9 accuracy and 9 attack versus haste -4. 1 point of haste is usually equivalent to 2-3 points of accuracy across the normal levels of haste we get (don't count on soul voiced marches and unlike 2 handers we can't exploit the 10% haste benefit of hasso... %^$#@ broken job ability is busted). Haste is a separate line of performance though, and while accuracy can cap you won't cap your haste. If you overshoot your accuracy the swift bet will continue to increase your performance whereas the virtuoso belt will only offer the difference of attack. 4 haste is worth 10-11 accuracy for most things as far as pure tp potential goes so if your accuracy is uncapped you'd probably be better off using the virtuoso belt over the swift belt. Given the choice between approximately 1-2 accuracy worth of tp potential and 9 attack... I'd go with 9 attack in that case.

Edited, May 24th 2010 9:26pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

I end up using two TP sets and 2 food sets. Betweeen them i can pretty much cover anything.

My acc oriented TP set puts me at 393. Its very similar to melphs but with Vbelt and no dex merits or dex Toreador ring i believe is the difference. This is my goto set for most things. My lower acc set uses things like turban over ACP, foragers over cuchulains etc and sits at 372 acc. I use this for anything easy peasy or when i have feint on.

Then i have meat and pizza so i get 4 levels of acc sets between set+food. (###)=Pizza+1 Atk+meat=372 Acc+Meat=393 Atk+pizza=409(312) Acc+pizza=432(436)

So again, i can have good control over my acc right in line with my TP sets with the push of a macro.

I really like this setup since it gives me some very nice control over my acc depending on what im fighting and what kind of food i wish to use. Regardless i swap to my lower acc set when feint is up.

436+2 min feint really does cover almost everything. I suppose i could grab som acc dakini to bump that up to an HNM level a little better, but honestly if its something like that ill bring my drg and its completely rediculous acc that makes my thf cry.

For reference, my drg has 3 levels of acc gear now. (###)=hasso Low=392 (402) this is straight up haste/atk gear. 21% haste Mid=411 (421) 21% haste (my "go to" set) High=437 (447) 19% haste (my "hnm" set or other evasive mob set) Super=449 (459) 13% haste: This last one is only if i swap Vbelt for Virtuoso which i tend to avoid due to the huge haste drop, but is functionally my MAX acc build.

Drg WS set: 432 acc. I just leave it at this though i could make a higher one...but why. If its THAT evasive im using wheeling.

And...well i never eat any type of acc food on drg anymore. No reason to with that kind of acc.

As you can see this makes my thf cry. This is just gear and chomping steaks with very high haste in gear to boot. Toss another 10% haste from hasso to those numbers and you see why im starting to favor my drg for DD almost always. _________________________________________________________________________

I like having the ability to control my acc pretty precisely and this is what my gearsets let me do on both jobs. Just dont forget that even after you attain all the high end acc gear, keep those lower acc sets around and close at hand in macros. The bility to adjust your acc seamlessly on the fly is really great. Pulled a puk? Feint up? Adjust gear instantly. Pull a nin? already prepared. Asserting direct control over your char will always get better results.

Parsed our Tier 1 Einherjar run again last week, and I finished the parse with 86% acc. Which is wierd because I just got Mirke and I moved to Pizza +1 because there was no normal pizza for sale at the AH. I went back and looked in more detail at the parse though, and when I removed the final boss from the parse data, I was at 95+% acc, which is precisely where I expected to be at. So, with the exception of this boss, my assumption that ~400-405 acc will cap acc in regular Einherjar wings still holds (Excluding bones, etc. that can affect acc).

So, with the exception of this boss, my assumption that ~400-405 acc will cap acc in regular Einherjar wings still holds (Excluding bones, etc. that can affect acc).

All bosses are higher in evasion, that's just how they work. Whenever I'm at a meat friendly event it's solid until we encounter a boss at which point my accuracy plummets. But bosses are few in number and played differently so I don't consider them when choosing food for an event unless I die. In large events like Einherjar you have a lot of people so feint is more important than meat versus pizza and that's easy to land with sa/ta. I just swap to ManStab on bosses and run with it. Likewise food doesn't matter too much on no-melee bosses like chariots. If a boss kills me I may consider adjusting food but I don't worry about it otherwise. Btw there are a few lesser mobs with high evasion. In einherjar the cursed chigoes have stupid evasion and Chigre has an evasion of around 480 despite being a T1 VNM. My hitrate on Chigre is about 75-78% with pizza even when I'm NOT blinded so I actually need sushi to hit him. Still, fights like this are generally rare and 400-410 accuracy is enough for most lesser events. You'll know the exceptions when you find them, because they usually need a lot more accuracy rather than just a little.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2010 5:22pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

For normal mobs. My last mamool merit parse was 84.13% with meat. That was befor I got Cuch Mantle but Hasso was up pretty much fulltime, so my accuracy would have been 408.

Noodles, there are explanations for having your acc this low at mamool camp as a drg, and it has nothing to do with not having enough acc. If you are killing at least 2 puks

Horribly late reply, but just to say this was the mamool camp at the top of nyzul which doesn't have puks or skoffins. It was just mamools. I don't think we were swapping out march1 for madrigal on lurkers, which concidering theres only like 10 spawns or something means you fight them regularly, and as I said I was on drg, not thf so couldn't feint them. Buffs were march x2, haste samba, corsair/fighters roll all the way through I think.

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Noodles, you have 5/5 feint merits so I'm sure you can appreciate it's awesome power.

Best merit points I ever spent.

The problem with me is that I'm basing my numbers off mainly drg and rng data which is what I have the most of, and which doesn't account for many factors, so whilst I'll be continuing to aim for 410-420ish in some harder dynamis zones, I will have to see for various T2-T3 einherjar wings and such.

yeah i just checked one of the mamool as drg parses i got. My overall acc was at 79%. When i removed thf/nin mobs it went up to 92.5% and lol, with nin/thf only, my acc was at 57%.

Yesterday i also did einherjar for the first time as "dd" thf. Got 80% hit rate with meat at tier 2 hehe. Since i was not inserted in the pt of the "big boys", i used this moment to test my acc so i ate meat cause pizza could have put me over cap (i wouldn't be doing much damage anyway, i had no songs and i couldn't TA anyone). I also spammed acid bolts so i lost a bit more of acc too.

I liked the proc rate of bolts too. We had bats at the first wave (which are weak to wind), but overall the proc was very nice. Def down 100% up instead of the usual, once in 3min one, sure rocked.

As much as i love my pimped out meat build, I find that any time i can actually eat real food, Pizza+haste set always does better than my higher acc+meat set.

I would have to eat steak or dragon type foods and get loads of atk buffs for meat to compete. Pizza just adds MORE acc/atk in combination than meat+gear acc does unless your using exceptional meat, and then you NEED atk buffs to actually use it anyway. But alas, the catch22. If you ARE getting mad atk buffs, then you are probably getting lots of haste too. If you get atk buffs, boosting your acc and wearing more haste with Pizza/Haste build will net better damage. You also get more freedom to buff stats on WS than in a meat build.

My acc set is: 17% haste/393 acc/370 atk/ then meat.

My pizza set is 19% haste/372 acc/384 atk/ then pizza.

My acc build is in the hole 14atk and 2% haste for a gain of 21 acc. Once you apply food (subs and pizza)

Meat: 17% haste/393 acc/457 atk

Pizza: 19% haste/409 acc/434 atk

There is virtually no situation that meat is better for me outside of colibri. Pizza gets 2% haste, 16 acc at the cost of 23 atk. Its just not worth it. Not to mention WS sets are more stat oriented with that acc boost. Then of course theres pizza+1 that just wrecks my meat build even more with another 3 acc and 5 atk. The only time i realy use my meat build outside of colibri is WITH pizza on HNMs because it nets me 432 acc.

So as i said, one would need to eat some serious dragon type food AND get huge atk buffs to use it just to get enough atk bonus from food to remotely compete with pizza. But in those situations you are at high haste and with such high atk, boosting hit rate by 8% and haste by another 2% and using pure stat builds on WS with all that free atk from buffs just works out better anyway.

On easy mobs i use haste build+meat. Medium mobs i use haste+pizza. High mobs=Acc build+ppizza (and colibri=Acc+meat). It makes me kinda sad that all these years to create my perfect TP gear for meat, and now its largely underused. When there was only sushi or meat it really had some merit, but by the time i had a really awesome meat build pizza came out. /sigh.

Yeah small details. I included the atk from it. There is a difference of 6str in favor of meat build(+1 in gear, +5 from meat). Not enough to counter pizza with more acc, more haste, and a small hit to atk. The DPS and TP gain are higher with haste/Pizza when all things are accounted for anyway so i didnt bother throwing more #s up.

This is slightly off topic but It's pretty relevant to the discussion so I thought I'd ask it here. I never used the melee damage spreadsheet people have been talking about and just downloaded the most recent version I could find today (V 4.0.3). I noticed the attack buffs from food are being handled incorrectly and was wondering if there was a more recent version or if inputting attack food is pointless with it.

As an example I inputted some gear sets, removed all buffs, and set the target mob to level 82 aura statues and got a total damage output of 103,332. Then I added crab sushi as the only buff and got 131,463 total damage (accuracy from food is being handled correctly). After that I changed the crab sushi to coeurl subs and got 104,097 total damage followed by an identical total of 104,097 damage when I used meat mithkabobs (less than 1k increase by eating meat versus no food at all and an identical return with a more powerful meat). I did one more test and after resetting the buffs to nothing I began with 103,332 total damage again. By adding Minuet IV I ended up with a total damage of 120,582 and an attack range reading of 372-433 (why is that the only field that gives a range?). Then I removed minuet IV and changed the food to red curry and the attack field read as 376-462, however the total damage was only 106,353. In this scenario my red curry gave me MORE attack than minuet IV did, but minuet IV raised damage by over 16k, while red curry only raised it by 3k.

The spreadsheet brimstone made calculates attack buffs correctly, but meat food is being handled completely wrong. Is there an updated version beyond this? If there isn't I won't even bother using it and I'll continue to do my calculations by hand like I've always been.

EDIT: I found the most recent version by searching alla, it's called FFXI Melee Damage Comparator v4.1.2Khimaira , but this version makes my damage go DOWN by eating meat >.<. I filled in the gear stuff and with no food my base damage on lvl 82 G colibri was 120,672. By adding squid sushi I got a total damage of 158,090 but when I changed the squid sushi to coeurl subs I got 77,859. Over 43,000 damage LESS after adding a meat food than I had with no food at all. I'm surprised nobody mentioned that error yet. It should be obvious but it's been in every release from V2.0 to the most current.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 4:53pm by Melphina

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[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

That is obviously a serious error in that program. I cant speak to any of those since i have my homebrew spreadsheet workin for me. I just manually add in food by hand usually for meat since they all have different caps and %. Acc is just an easy % number to stick in.

Mel: I could not reproduce your results playing with my local copy, i PM'd you my email though and I can look through yours, could be a conditional gone awry or who knows, I've found some odd bugs from time to time and learn why SE has so many in their releases as well doing this.

This post may offer some explanation if you're comparing damage totals. Rather than worrying about the whole total see if individual pieces make sense or not, when you add meat does your damage per hit at least go up? (does the attack numbers themselves look correct? there was a bug in some earlier versions with the food table where as I was pasting stuff a couple cell references were not correct and it was either picking the food next to it, or food from setup 1 was affecting setup 2, something like that, don't remember exactly, but it was fix a long time ago (at least I thought!))

the attack range is probably due to having Berserk on/off. iirc it should calculate a weighted average (60% on, 40% off) to arrive at the final numbers.

The link in my signature still works for v3.2, just curious if the numbers look better there. Masa did a bunch of reworking for v4.

The problem was due to a reference to a blank cell when cRatio was high which caused pDIF to return 0. I used the current formulas found on the wiki and made the corrections (also found 1 or 2 smaller bugs in the process). (he had some slightly different formulas in there which may or may not be more accurate, I know he was driving many of the updates to this).

So the net is, when your meat food increased your cRatio, this caused your max pDIF to drop to zero and your damage went down (if you'll notice in the sheets you sent me the 'max hit' was less than the 'min hit').

Please download the new version and let me know it looks better.

I'm hoping to spend some time, maybe this week, and fix the DoT formulas. The other sheet up there does a full scale probability table to figure out wasted tp, and average number of rounds etc.

True true that, but there definitely is truth to what they said. Adjust for the mob. A bit over the top for some perhaps but 3-4 different DD-oriented TP sets and an array of food in your satchel lets you adapt well to whatever mob you're fighting, or whatever songs/buffs may be active at any and every moment.

I feel a little out of place replying since I'm new to THF, but everyone has to jump in at some point right? I do not have ZM or COP finished; too much of my life spent fishing and BST. I leveled THF to 75 so I could camp my own easier NMs like the flytraps for the AGI earrings for my COR, but I find that I really, really like playing thief. TPing is fun, WS is fun, the JAs for more damage are fun. Bolts are fun. It's like (my) Ninja +1 -Ninjitsu Debuffs... if that makes any sense, lol. Thief is definitely more fun as (my) Ninja can't WS worth a ****.

Anyway, I've been working on making my new THF the best I can so I can maybe do something fun with it.

I'm going to work on ASA pants soon, I wanted to make them BST-oriented like my other 2 pieces, but decided in the end that -sic timer wasn't really good enough so I'm going to do mini-byakko Acc/Haste. That will put me at 408 Acc w/Pizza+1 I believe. I want to buy a Blau, but I believe Blau will fall in value soon and I'd be spending the majority of my money if I bought one. I just do not think it is a sound investment at this time with the possibility of Dakinis being upgradable again soon. The Magian trial weapons are just such a steal of a deal for charity cases like myself. +10 acc attached to weapons is fantastic, and having 2 allows me to keep quite a bit of haste for my gear level. I've been trying to look for good ear pieces to wear; not having the brutal and suppa like everyone else really sucks. =/ I picked up the Adriot cheap from /shout and just tossed the coral there from BST.

My WS set has a little more Acc than my TP set as I hate missing. 411 w/pizza+1. It's a really sad WS set though, look for yourself, lol. ASA pants in place of Drg.Sub will allow me to drop Cobra for Drg.Harness. I'd love to get something better for hands/legs/feet though. I am trying to merc a pair of Enkidu Mittens. My Anwig is Acc+10 Att+8 (and pet mod for BST). I stick to Amemet+1 since COR uses it; inventory +1 over buying Forager's, ya know?

8/8 Dagger as I am a M.Kris COR. After I qualify to do salvage, I want to get into it; I heard that the legs and shoes are not expensive to get. They look really nice. I'm looking forward to being able to solo/duo the rest of my missions and finally catch up after the level cap increases. The only "endgame" activity I do so far is Dynamis, if you call that endgame. I'm irreversibly perma-COR there, but I hope to do something with THF at some point. It's a lot of fun; I envy you THF mains.

Meldi, Melph, Sham, I'm right in assuming you, like me, also have 8 dagger merits, torque, are mithra, and have maxed feint?

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I do have 8/8 dagger merits, wish I had torque, yes am mithra, only 1/5 feint because I never merit. It will be 5/5 some day.

Not so good to assume.

Anyways, all those things help. Someone who has fire bomblet is ahead of me on acc in the ammo slot because i use a xbow but I don't care. As long as they are playing smart thief alls good.

I'm beginning to think min/max isn't all that. Just hit acceptable levels and play for fun whether that be min/maxed or really skillful. There are benchmarks which math posters have set, and they are good to have and measure against but its not a race to get there.

Was gonna make a new post on this but might as well ask it here since it's relavent. With the level cap and new gear coming out I was contemplating on getting a few things here and there. I'm pretty set on most of everything I'm going to get except for the ammo slot. The reason why I'm having trouble deciding is because when capped at 80 without making any adjustments to my current gear, my acc is at 411 for tp gear. So with that I have the options of lucky coin (acc +8), fire bomblet (acc 6 att 6), bomb core (att 12), and threw bomblet (att 10 STR 2). My goal is to just have 2 of them and macro them in accordingly. It would make sense to just go with the highest acc for tping but with so much already, would I need the extra 2 acc especially when I have so much for existing mobs? And should I bother trying to get a threw bomblet to use over my existing bomb core? I really hate sacrificing attack in any situation but will if my hitrate suffers...but I don't think it will anytime soon.

Its well known that I am not a 95% acc or gtfo person, so my assessment is that Lucky Coin is not needed. Fire Bomblet will give you more overall benefit than Lucky Coin.

It's not about being a "95% Acc or gtfo person".... It's about how much of an increase to DoT one will give over another. It's maths, it's not an opinion due to wanting to be at 95% Acc.

As it happens, 6Att should beat 1% Hitrate (2Acc), however, this is not becauase I'm "not a 95% acc or gtfo person", it's because going from 400>406 attack is gonna be around a 1.3% boost with a 60/40 TP/WS Split, whereas 2Acc is going to be around a 1% increase. This is with example numbers. The higher your attack and/or the lower your hitrate, and the weaker bomblet becomes. It has nothing to do with personal opinion. It's fact.

In fact, the coin's 2Acc doesn't even equal the 6Att untill you drop to around 80% Acc.