GUESS has a figure for almost every position for elusiveness. The default role ratings do not have any weight on any defensive player in elusiveness. Does anyone think there is something to that? Is this a sign of something changing about how defense is simulated?

This is something definitely up for debate. I really couldn't come up with a good place where what I think of as Elusiveness matters on defense other than what tigerpark135 mentions. There's another problem in that it seems like ELU can run really high for defensive players. The place it currently is being used in the 3.0 engine is in avoiding the tackle and in receiver's ability to get open.

I could definitely see it factoring in to defensive block (or essentially countering blocks) ratings, but I'd like to get some feedback on that. I'm trying to not have too many ratings affect each ability as that ends up watering down the effects of each rating, and there are already so many ratings that factor in to the defensive block ratings that I thought adding ELU in was not necessary.

To me, I can see both sides to this argument. Elusiveness definitely has something to do with avoiding blocks. How would that be represented in a sim like this? As some probability skew on the chances of not getting blocked when you otherwise would do so. At the same time, how powerful would that be and could it be represented in a simpler form by using Ath/Spd/Str. I dunno, tho the ratings in elusiveness kinda makes me wish there was a little more interchangeability between the DB and WR positions with the inevitable GI tradeoff. Is there anything that causes inflated elusiveness ratings in defensive players? Just seems a bit odd to me. Another rating I notice has zero weight that GUESS highly weights is speed for OL. Now, in inside runs I see it as zero myself, but on outside runs I would think it would be somewhat important organically.

Posted by bjohara1 on 4/2/2013 2:21:00 PM (view original):Why is Player A a 54.9 role rating, while Player B is only a 50? Player B has better ratings across the board except for blocking where he has 5 less points...

I like the idea of ELU being used on def. players to avoid being blocked. It just makes sense to me, but I'm a BIG advocate of reality. I think it should definitely come into play with LB and or DB blitzing or playing the rush and DL basically all of the time. I also think it should matter with OL to an extent. Basically compare the OL ELU to the def. players ELU that he is trying to block. Just my .2...

Posted by bjohara1 on 4/2/2013 2:21:00 PM (view original):Why is Player A a 54.9 role rating, while Player B is only a 50? Player B has better ratings across the board except for blocking where he has 5 less points...

Posted by coach_deen on 4/2/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):I like the idea of ELU being used on def. players to avoid being blocked. It just makes sense to me, but I'm a BIG advocate of reality. I think it should definitely come into play with LB and or DB blitzing or playing the rush and DL basically all of the time. I also think it should matter with OL to an extent. Basically compare the OL ELU to the def. players ELU that he is trying to block. Just my .2...

Disagree with OL needing elu to cover def. elu. Your definition of elusivness changes with this theory. OL need GI, tech, and speed to counteract theeffects of the def. elu.

The only time a OL would need elu. would be if he picked up a fumble and started running with it. And lord knows we have all seen our fair share of OL picking up fumbles and trying to run in real life. Normally makes for good football follies highlights.

Remember the definition of elusiveness is to avoid being captured/caught. IE..slippery as a snake. At no time are OL trying to avoid being caught. WELL, I suppose they could be elusive with mastering the art of "holding" and not being seen by the refs. :)

Posted by norbert on 4/2/2013 12:26:00 PM (view original):This is something definitely up for debate. I really couldn't come up with a good place where what I think of as Elusiveness matters on defense other than what tigerpark135 mentions. There's another problem in that it seems like ELU can run really high for defensive players. The place it currently is being used in the 3.0 engine is in avoiding the tackle and in receiver's ability to get open.

I could definitely see it factoring in to defensive block (or essentially countering blocks) ratings, but I'd like to get some feedback on that. I'm trying to not have too many ratings affect each ability as that ends up watering down the effects of each rating, and there are already so many ratings that factor in to the defensive block ratings that I thought adding ELU in was not necessary.

So what do you guys feel about ELU on the defensive side?

I guess I always thought that ELU was just another way of saying agility, or the ability to change direction. In this way, DB's and LB's would need it to stay with WR/TE/RB's and a little could help DL's to get around blocks. If it isn't used on the defensive side of the ball, why have it for defensive players at all? Replace it with break block or quickness and have it actually do/mean something... But if it does end up having no meaning, then please state it clearly.

Posted by norbert on 4/2/2013 12:26:00 PM (view original):This is something definitely up for debate. I really couldn't come up with a good place where what I think of as Elusiveness matters on defense other than what tigerpark135 mentions. There's another problem in that it seems like ELU can run really high for defensive players. The place it currently is being used in the 3.0 engine is in avoiding the tackle and in receiver's ability to get open.

I could definitely see it factoring in to defensive block (or essentially countering blocks) ratings, but I'd like to get some feedback on that. I'm trying to not have too many ratings affect each ability as that ends up watering down the effects of each rating, and there are already so many ratings that factor in to the defensive block ratings that I thought adding ELU in was not necessary.

So what do you guys feel about ELU on the defensive side?

I guess I always thought that ELU was just another way of saying agility, or the ability to change direction. In this way, DB's and LB's would need it to stay with WR/TE/RB's and a little could help DL's to get around blocks. If it isn't used on the defensive side of the ball, why have it for defensive players at all? Replace it with break block or quickness and have it actually do/mean something... But if it does end up having no meaning, then please state it clearly.

I've tended to agree...tho I have never been fully aware of what "athleticism" is if not synonymous with elusiveness in football. I mean, in basketball it largely refers to jumping ability but...I'm not sure here.

Posted by norbert on 4/2/2013 12:26:00 PM (view original):This is something definitely up for debate. I really couldn't come up with a good place where what I think of as Elusiveness matters on defense other than what tigerpark135 mentions. There's another problem in that it seems like ELU can run really high for defensive players. The place it currently is being used in the 3.0 engine is in avoiding the tackle and in receiver's ability to get open.

I could definitely see it factoring in to defensive block (or essentially countering blocks) ratings, but I'd like to get some feedback on that. I'm trying to not have too many ratings affect each ability as that ends up watering down the effects of each rating, and there are already so many ratings that factor in to the defensive block ratings that I thought adding ELU in was not necessary.

So what do you guys feel about ELU on the defensive side?

I guess I always thought that ELU was just another way of saying agility, or the ability to change direction. In this way, DB's and LB's would need it to stay with WR/TE/RB's and a little could help DL's to get around blocks. If it isn't used on the defensive side of the ball, why have it for defensive players at all? Replace it with break block or quickness and have it actually do/mean something... But if it does end up having no meaning, then please state it clearly.

I've tended to agree...tho I have never been fully aware of what "athleticism" is if not synonymous with elusiveness in football. I mean, in basketball it largely refers to jumping ability but...I'm not sure here.

"athleticism" acts as a multiplier, if I remember correctly. Since it doesn't equate to a single attribute/skill, or even position, I've thought of it as playmaking ability. For a rusher, the higher it is the more likely he is to break a long one -- all other things being equal a guy with 40 ath will break more than a guy with 20. Same for any position, OL will spring more big plays, for example.