Wonder if Hagadone's moment of anger hampered what the Indians wanted to do and what they were talking with other teams about. I'd imagine he was one of the trade pieces we were dangling to teams. Obviously, he'll come back from this, but it may still hurt his value.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:Wonder if Hagadone's moment of anger hampered what the Indians wanted to do and what they were talking with other teams about. I'd imagine he was one of the trade pieces we were dangling to teams. Obviously, he'll come back from this, but it may still hurt his value.

I have yet to see an official diagnosis on him. Did he break his hand? If so, I don't see him pitching again for quite a while, well past the trade deadline, and a guy like him won't clear waivers for a waiver type trade.

WiscTribeFan wrote:I have yet to see an official diagnosis on him. Did he break his hand? If so, I don't see him pitching again for quite a while, well past the trade deadline, and a guy like him won't clear waivers for a waiver type trade.

The fact that he's seeing hand specialist Dr. Graham is ominous enough. I'll assume, without knowing for sure, that he broke it. At least a fracture, hopefully it's not worse than that like a complete break.

It's possible that Hagadone's jackassery could keep us from making any substantial moves. Like I said, he had to be our most attractive trade piece, since he's got a big arm and is almost ML-ready.

Sure, we might move a B-level prospect for another reliever or a couple B-level prospects for a depth starter, but without Hagadone in a package deal, it's hard to see us getting an impact type of player. Without knowing how highly other teams viewed Hagadone, I'm just speculating.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Justin Upton is available for the right offer, but his no-trade protection enables him to block trades to four teams. The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs and Indians are the teams on Upton's list, Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports report. As the FOX reporters note, players often include high-revenue teams like the Yankees on no-trade lists to maximize their leverage. Here are today’s latest Upton-related rumors:

Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

To be honest, I was thinking about this. The next 11 games are big. 4 @ TB, 4 v. BAL, 3 v. DET. If we go something like 4-7 and wind up being 5 or 6 games back, it has to be considered. It's a very slim market with so many teams in the hunt. Hell, today's the first day in history that 11 teams in the AL were over .500.

However, what do we honestly have to sell? Joe Smith? Chris Perez? Does anybody want Derek Lowe? Choo would instantly become option 1b to Justin Upton, but would we want to trade him? We could probably ask the world for him and possibly get it.

Jose Lopez could be a viable sell piece, but he's only netting you a marginal prospect, if that.

The Indians, IMO, are f'd. They're probably not good enough to make the playoffs and definitely not good enough in the rotation to make a run if they get there. The farm system is awful. There's no help incoming for next season unless they get some free agents.

We're in a bad spot no matter what we do. Can't really buy or sell. Just have to hope the entire lineup catches fire for two months and the pitching is good enough to keep you in every game.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

Depends on when this contract was signed. Could have been a few years ago...

To be honest, I was thinking about this. The next 11 games are big. 4 @ TB, 4 v. BAL, 3 v. DET. If we go something like 4-7 and wind up being 5 or 6 games back, it has to be considered. It's a very slim market with so many teams in the hunt. Hell, today's the first day in history that 11 teams in the AL were over .500.

However, what do we honestly have to sell? Joe Smith? Chris Perez? Does anybody want Derek Lowe? Choo would instantly become option 1b to Justin Upton, but would we want to trade him? We could probably ask the world for him and possibly get it.

Jose Lopez could be a viable sell piece, but he's only netting you a marginal prospect, if that.

The Indians, IMO, are f'd. They're probably not good enough to make the playoffs and definitely not good enough in the rotation to make a run if they get there. The farm system is awful. There's no help incoming for next season unless they get some free agents.

We're in a bad spot no matter what we do. Can't really buy or sell. Just have to hope the entire lineup catches fire for two months and the pitching is good enough to keep you in every game.

Yeah I know we don't have much to offer. I think a team would take Lowe, and possibly Kotchman, I know you won't get much of anything, but maybe if they could be packaged together. And if the FO does their homework, they could probably get a better return then we got for CC and Cliff Lee for Choo. I'm on the fence with Perez, but this could be the last year he's this consistent, so if someone is willing to overpay then I'd pull the trigger. Five or six games back for a team that can't seem to win more than three or four in a row at any given time is almost insurmountable as crazy as that sounds.

If they fall out and sell, then they might as well go all in and sell everything not named Masterson, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Santanna, Pestano, if they are not going to augment this club with free agent signings next year, because as it was mentioned before, as of right now, they have no internal help coming next year and really none that could really be considered impact for at least 3 years i.e. Lindor, Paulino, Howard, Naquain, Wolters.

If they are not going to pony up money this offseason then they need to get as many pieces as they can to blend with the talent due in 2015-2016 that will be added to help our core players who will be under contract and start our 3 year window of contention all over again.

As far as I'm concerned they could get rid of Santana too. His head has been somewhere other than in the game. Probably the same place that I'd like to put that guy's vuvuthingy...(Listening to the Tribe/Rays game 7-16, to put that remark in context )

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

The Indians will not be sellers. They are a half game back in the wild card. They would have to lose the next 10 games for them to not be at least cosmetically in the race at the time of the trade deadline.

The Indians will not be sellers. They are a half game back in the wild card. They would have to lose the next 10 games for them to not be at least cosmetically in the race at the time of the trade deadline.

I keep forgetting about that second wild card. Either way, if they went 4-7 over the 11 games, like I said, they'd have been 6 back or so in the division and probably 3 or 4 back in the wild card with at least three teams to leapfrog.

They'd have had to at least consider selling at that point, although, like I also said, they don't have much to sell.

They're stuck either adding a marginal upgrade or remaining the same.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

pup wrote:Take advantage of a seller's market at all costs. All you hear about is there are no sellers because of that 2nd wild card. Screw it. Your minors are pathetic at best.

Yep. And dealing Lopez, Perez, maybe Smith, throw in Damon and Kotchmann and Lowe should be able to net you a quantity of prospects with, if packaged right, a couple higher-quality ones in there. And that sets you up well in a couple yrs., and clears salary for next yr.

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

Not really strange ...most top players have the Indians as a team they don;t want to go to, quite frankly.. Under the Dolan's ownership I don't thik we are percieved as a team that's very attractive, for whatever reason ...maybe they don't think they are willing to spend what it takes to succeed. Not sure..

BTW: Pup's view (and my own) is predicated on the notion that ownership will never be interested/able in spending more $ than projected. Better ownership WOULD make an aggressive move now, but "you go to war w/ the ownership you have, not the one that you want."

DanErie wrote:Not really strange ...most top players have the Indians as a team they don;t want to go to, quite frankly.. Under the Dolan's ownership I don't thik we are percieved as a team that's very attractive, for whatever reason ...maybe they don't think they are willing to spend what it takes to succeed. Not sure..

Seriously? It's not strange that he didn't include Pittsburgh, Houston, Kansas City, Oakland, or San Diego given the arguments you made. None of those seem to be attractive destinations from a baseball standpoint, nor do they have owners who are willing to spend money by the truckload.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

Not really strange ...most top players have the Indians as a team they don;t want to go to, quite frankly.. Under the Dolan's ownership I don't thik we are percieved as a team that's very attractive, for whatever reason ...maybe they don't think they are willing to spend what it takes to succeed. Not sure..

Or as Cousineau just said:

"Remember that whole thing that Chris Perez posited about Carlos Beltran not wanting to come to Cleveland. If you don’t, here it is again:

“Guys don’t want to come over here and people wonder why…Why doesn’t Carlos Beltran want to come over here? Well, because of that. That’s part of it. It doesn’t go unnoticed — trust us. That’s definitely a huge reason. Nobody wants to play in front of 5,000 fans. We know the weather (stinks), but people see that. Other players know that.

“You had a choice of playing in St. Louis where you get 40,000 (fans) like Beltran chose to do, or you can come to Cleveland. It’s going to take more money to get him to come to Cleveland. That’s just how it is. That’s another thing that you have to go against. It’s not only the payrolls of the (American League) East teams, but that kind of stuff.”

Now, as much as Perez was vilified for those particular comments (and others, as his comments at the time went off the rails a bit), to see that quartet of teams listed by Upton with Rosenthal explaining the inclusion of three of those teams – and not Cleveland – is impossible to ignore."

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that all of the Indians problems would magically disappear with a new owner.

7foot3 wrote:But go ahead and keep telling yourself that all of the Indians problems would magically disappear with a new owner.

Oooh, snark-kay.

The snarkenator.

I think a lot of fans note the complete lack of excitement generated by the team. They bemoan the market, the economy, and complain about not being able to compete. Their marketing defaults to reminders of the '90s. (As an aside, they have ignored my repeated requests for communication in lining up interviews for this site- despite the STO partnership with The Cleveland Fan. The Browns, on the other hand, are very accommodating.)

They don't market Choo, Kipnis, Masterson, etc. It's been written about here.

Comparing these Indians fans to St. Louis fans is like comparing the current Indians era to the late 90s era.

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

Not really strange ...most top players have the Indians as a team they don;t want to go to, quite frankly.. Under the Dolan's ownership I don't thik we are percieved as a team that's very attractive, for whatever reason ...maybe they don't think they are willing to spend what it takes to succeed. Not sure..

Or as Cousineau just said:

"Remember that whole thing that Chris Perez posited about Carlos Beltran not wanting to come to Cleveland. If you don’t, here it is again:

“Guys don’t want to come over here and people wonder why…Why doesn’t Carlos Beltran want to come over here? Well, because of that. That’s part of it. It doesn’t go unnoticed — trust us. That’s definitely a huge reason. Nobody wants to play in front of 5,000 fans. We know the weather (stinks), but people see that. Other players know that.

“You had a choice of playing in St. Louis where you get 40,000 (fans) like Beltran chose to do, or you can come to Cleveland. It’s going to take more money to get him to come to Cleveland. That’s just how it is. That’s another thing that you have to go against. It’s not only the payrolls of the (American League) East teams, but that kind of stuff.”

Now, as much as Perez was vilified for those particular comments (and others, as his comments at the time went off the rails a bit), to see that quartet of teams listed by Upton with Rosenthal explaining the inclusion of three of those teams – and not Cleveland – is impossible to ignore."

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that all of the Indians problems would magically disappear with a new owner.

All of this....

The game is not fair. Everyone not dead knows this, including the players.

Money and winning matter. Nothing else does - not the environment, not how many fans, not the owner....none of it except the big two.

Carlos Beltran, and everyone the hell else understands that the deck is stacked. Why go to a team (and Cleveland qualifies) that annually has a slimmer chance to win then many others. What's the point?

WiscTribeFan wrote:Maximize his leverage with the Yanks and Red Sox, and stay the hell out of Cleveland

What does this say about us overall? Is this just Upton having something against the idea of coming to Cleveland or is this the most obvious example of a negative perception of Cleveland and the Indians organization?

It seems very strange that he'd single us out. Granted, of the teams possibly in the hunt, we are probably the least attractive destination.

Not really strange ...most top players have the Indians as a team they don;t want to go to, quite frankly.. Under the Dolan's ownership I don't thik we are percieved as a team that's very attractive, for whatever reason ...maybe they don't think they are willing to spend what it takes to succeed. Not sure..

Or as Cousineau just said:

"Remember that whole thing that Chris Perez posited about Carlos Beltran not wanting to come to Cleveland. If you don’t, here it is again:

“Guys don’t want to come over here and people wonder why…Why doesn’t Carlos Beltran want to come over here? Well, because of that. That’s part of it. It doesn’t go unnoticed — trust us. That’s definitely a huge reason. Nobody wants to play in front of 5,000 fans. We know the weather (stinks), but people see that. Other players know that.

“You had a choice of playing in St. Louis where you get 40,000 (fans) like Beltran chose to do, or you can come to Cleveland. It’s going to take more money to get him to come to Cleveland. That’s just how it is. That’s another thing that you have to go against. It’s not only the payrolls of the (American League) East teams, but that kind of stuff.”

Now, as much as Perez was vilified for those particular comments (and others, as his comments at the time went off the rails a bit), to see that quartet of teams listed by Upton with Rosenthal explaining the inclusion of three of those teams – and not Cleveland – is impossible to ignore."

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that all of the Indians problems would magically disappear with a new owner.

All of this....

The game is not fair. Everyone not dead knows this, including the players.

Money and winning matter. Nothing else does - not the environment, not how many fans, not the owner....none of it except the big two.

Carlos Beltran, and everyone the hell else understands that the deck is stacked. Why go to a team (and Cleveland qualifies) that annually has a slimmer chance to win then many others. What's the point?

The Indians are looking all over to acquire an outfield bat, but they are unable to take back a significant contract and are unwilling to move their best prospects.

Meanwhile, the Royals are trying to convince the Indians or Reds to take Jeff Francoeur so they can promote Wil Myers from Triple-A.

Francouer has played almost no left field. Unfortunately, that's the field we have the most need in. I'm guessing the Tribe wouldn't bite unless the Royals want to give them Alfonso Soriano $40M money...

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Better yet, clear your front office, rebuild it, and start anew. Shaponetti, over the past decade, has totally ruined a franchise that not all that long ago boasted the most potent hitters and the best pitchers on any one roster in the majors.

This is a stupid thread. What team in their right mind would trade any player of value for anything the Indians have? This organization is so devoid of tradable talent as to make any scenarios null and void. And even if the sorry Tribe front office could work something out, with no depth anywhere, they'd just be creating another hole to fill one of the many existing holes.

The best they can hope to do is trade one marginal player for another: GIGO.

pup wrote:Meanwhile, Hanley Ramirez just got dealt for Jenmar Gomez and an A baller.

It may be unpopular to say, but with the amount of money that he'll be getting paid over the next two years, his last two seasons of declining numbers, and an attitude the size of Texas, it doesn't surprise me that teams wouldn't be sending multiple top prospects for him.

Marlins fans deserve what they get. The state got fleeced, so did the fans. Their owner is the biggest douche-bag on the planet. Always has been.