Briefing :: Briefing: Religious Freedom in the Caucasus

UNITED STATES COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
(HELSINKI COMMISSION) HOLDS BRIEFING
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THE CAUCASU
JULY 21, 200
COMMISSIONERS
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH (R-NJ
CHAIRMA
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FRANK R. WOLF (R-VA
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPH R. PITTS (R-PA
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE ROBERT B. ADERHOLT (R-AL
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE ANNE M. NORTHUP (R-KY
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE BENJAMIN L. CARDIN (D-MD
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE LOUISE MCINTOSH SLAUGHTER (D-NY
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE ALCEE L. HASTINGS (D-FL
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE MIKE MCINTYRE (D-NC
U.S. SENATOR BEN NIGHTHORSE CAMPBELL (R-CO
CO-CHAIRMA
U.S. SENATOR SAM BROWNBACK (R-KS
U.S. SENATOR GORDON H. SMITH (R-OR
U.S. SENATOR KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R-TX
U.S. SENATOR SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R-GA
U.S. SENATOR CHRISTOPHER J. DODD (D-CT
U.S. SENATOR BOB GRAHAM (D-FL
U.S. SENATOR RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD (D-WI
U.S. SENATOR HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY
ELIZABETH PRYOR, SENIOR STAF
KNOX THAMES, SENIOR STAF
WITNESSES/PANELISTS
ERIC RASSBAC
COUNSE
THE BECKET FUND FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
ANDRE CARBONNEA
ATTORNE
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSE
PAUL CREG
SENIOR CATALOGING SPECIALIS
LIBRARY OF CONGRES
The briefing was held at 11:00 a.m. in Room 334 Cannon House Office
Building, Washington, D.C., U.S. Representative Christopher Smith moderating
[*
SMITH: The hearing will come to order.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am pleased to convene this Helsinki
Commission briefing on religious freedom in Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia.
Today,
our expert witnesses, our panel will discuss each country and after the
conclusion
of their statements, questions will be taken from the floor. Before I
introduce our
panelists, I would like to make a few observations
In 2003, all three Caucasus countries held important elections. These
elections and their outcome say a great deal about the level of democratic
development in each country. According to the OSCE monitoring missions, each of
these elections featured falsification, but the reactions of society in these
countries differed significantly.
In Armenia, protesters rallied against the official results of the February
March presidential election, but shrank from confrontation with the state. In
Azerbaijan, clashes broke out in October between police and protesters who
claimed
the presidential election was rigged, but the authorities easily crushed the
demonstration and then extended their crackdown on the opposition country-wide.
In
Georgia, however, key opposition figures remained united and rallied public
support
against an unpopular government. For the first time in the former USSR, public
protest succeeded in overturning the results of a rigged, flawed election and
ultimately bringing down a head of state
Against this background, in Azerbaijan, government actions against the Juma
Mosque Community in Baku are of great concern and the disturbing events over the
past several weeks have greatly alarmed me and other members of the Helsinki
Commission. Fundamental OSCE commitments have been violated by the Azerbaijani
government, using the police, through the forceful expulsion of this community
of
peaceful believers and with the imposition of a new imam. This is
unconscionable.
This is just plain wrong
That is why I am asking of President Aliyev and his government, and what we
asking as a Commission in a bipartisan way, is very simple. We urge Azerbaijan
to
end this embarrassment and to honor its OSCE commitments on religious freedom,
and
allow this mosque and its community to operate freely and to use its facility
without government interference. Those commitments are violated when the
government
forces the community to accept a new leader or burdensome oversight from the
Muslim
Board of the Caucasus, the government-backed religious association.
In addition, the government should end its campaign of harassment of the
community's leaders, especially Imam Ilgar. Any criminal charges would be
deemed
very alarming. I also hope the community's appeal to the supreme court
contesting
the closure will be successful
While the mosque situation has received some attention, other communities
such as Baptists and Adventists are also experiencing problems. The Helsinki
Commission will continue to monitor these developments and consider further
actions
should authorities in Baku fail to address these matters. In this vein, I would
like to hear from the panel if the U.S. Commission on International Religious
Freedom should add Azerbaijan to their watch list of countries with
deteriorating
religious freedom conditions. In addition, there are a number of tools
available to
the State Department for dealing with countries that routinely violate religious
freedom, especially under the International Religious Freedom Act
Turning to Armenia, government policy on religious freedom also conflicts
with OSCE commitments. Government registration is necessary to carry out basic
functions like renting property, publishing newspapers or magazines, or
officially
sponsoring the visas of visitors. The approval system has proven extremely
problematic. On June 17 the government again refused to register the Jehovah's
Witnesses as an official religion because of their proselytizing activities.
Small
groups, including Hare Krishnas and many Baptist communities, are frequently
unable
to attain the minimum number of members required by the government to register.
In
addition, 20 Jehovah's Witnesses are in prison for refusing military service on
religious grounds
Last month, I met with Foreign Minister Oskanian and raised my concerns
about the inability of Jehovah's Witnesses to register. I also handed over a
list
of jailed conscientious objectors and urged their release. I note that Armenia,
when joining the Council of Europe, committed to free all imprisoned
conscientious
objectors, a promise that thus far has gone unfulfilled. I would also note that
Armenia seriously disappointed its friends in the Unite States by recently
cosigning, as did human rights stalwarts Belarus and the Central Asian
countries, a
Russian-organized declaration that criticized the OSCE and its human rights
commitments, including those to hold free and fair elections. Of course, the
OSCE
commitments were freely accepted by Armenia when it joined the OSCE in 1992
Let me finally say that much has happened in Georgia since President Mikheil
Saakashvili came to power. His government has successfully and peacefully
regained
control of Ajaria, and I hope the situation in South Ossetia will be peacefully
resolved. As for religious freedom, I was very pleased in March by the long
overdue
arrest of renegade Orthodox priest and mob leader, Father Basili. This
Commission
has not only raised this issue repeatedly, we actually saw videotape at one of
our
meetings of this particular priest, Basili, if you want to call him that, rabble
rousing and raising his very, very anti-Jehovah?s Witness views. It was
discouraging and disgusting
But Georgian authorities should investigate and prosecute other individuals
known to have perpetrated violent criminal acts against religious minorities, as
Father Basili did, as we all know, did not act alone.
Legal problems also persist, as minority communities are unable to obtain
legal entity status or to build new worship facilities. In addition, a
concordat
with the state granted the Georgian Orthodox Church special privileges, to the
detriment of other confessions. That, too, is unacceptable.
I would like to now, and again welcome our very distinguished panel.
Regrettably, I have a markup that I have to be at, and Elizabeth Pryor will take
over the remainder of the briefing. Again, I want to assure you, your
statements
and the information you impart to this Commission not only will be widely
disseminated to the commissioners, but to a very broad range of people
interested in
these issues. So I deeply thank you for being here
PRYOR: Thank you very much. I am Elizabeth Pryor. I am the senior adviser
with the Helsinki Commission. Let me just add my words of welcome to those of
Chairman Smith. Thank you very much for being here today, taking your time to
be
with us. We are extremely interested in what you have to say
We have three experts to make presentations about Azerbaijan, Armenia and
Georgia respectively. Our first panelist is Eric Rassbach, serving as counsel
at
The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. Mr. Rassbach represents the Juma Mosque
community and its imam before the European Court of Human Rights. Before
joining
The Becket Fund, he was at the firm Baker, Botts LLP, and worked on the
Baku-Tbilisi
pipeline project.
Our next panelist will be Andre Carbonneau, who is an attorney for the
Jehovah's Witnesses, as he represents Armenian and Georgian Jehovah's Witnesses
before the European Court of Human Rights. Mr. Carbonneau will speak about the
current situation in those two countries
Last is Dr. Paul Crego, who is the senior cataloging specialist with the
Library of Congress. He is responsible for materials in Georgian and Armenian,
and
recently traveled to Georgia to collect religious periodicals. Holding a Ph.D.
in
theology from Boston College, he has lectured on Georgia in the Foreign Service
Institute on several occasions.
Welcome to all of you. I think we will start first with Mr. Rassbach
RASSBACH: Thank you.
Good morning. My name is Eric Rassbach. I am an attorney with The Becket
Fund for Religious Liberty here in Washington, D.C. The Becket Fund is an
international, interfaith, public interest law firm that is dedicated to
protecting
the free expression of all religious traditions, both here in the United States
and
abroad
I would really like to thank the Commission and especially Chairman Smith
for inviting me to appear before you today. I would also like to thank the
commission for drawing attention to the very timely subject of religious
freedom in
the Caucasus. This topic is, as I hope will become apparent from this meeting,
one
of singular importance to the peoples of the Caucasus and to the United States
I have been asked to describe to you the state of religious freedom in
Azerbaijan today. Perhaps the best way to do this is by telling you a little
story. A congregation of moderate Shia Muslims is meeting one morning for
worship
in downtown Baku. They have been told that for them to meet together is illegal
under the laws of the state because they have not agreed to become part of the
state
religious hierarchy. They want to remain independent. The state has ordered
them
to leave the ancient mosque they rescued from its Soviet fate as a carpet
museum,
and has threatened violence in removing them. The mosque's leader, a
charismatic
young imam who is a well-known speaker at human rights conferences across
Europe,
has publicly committed the congregation to nonviolent resistance. If the police
come, he says, "We will meet them with flowers.
As it happens, there is not enough time to hand any flowers to the police.
They burst in during the morning prayer and immediately begin to beat the mosque
goers. The young imam remains in prayer position on the floor, not returning
the
blows, while exhorting the congregation not to fight back. Eventually all of
the
mosque goers are dragged out of the mosque
In the subsequent crackdown, religious believers are arrested when they
attempt to visit the mosque or in their own homes. The state first attempts to
impose a new imam not chosen by the mosque congregation. When the state
authorities
realize that only the deposed imam's bodyguards will pray with him at the
mosque,
they give up. The mosque is now closed "for repairs.
This is the story of the Juma Mosque congregation and its imam, Ilgar
Ibrahimoglu Allahverdiev, whom The Becket Fund is privileged to represent in
their
lawsuit against Azerbaijan in the European Court of Human Rights.
Unfortunately,
his story and their story is an all too common one in Azerbaijan today, and
that is
why this story and the other stories of religious oppression in Azerbaijan must
be
heard
What that means is that the best way to characterize the state of religious
freedom in Azerbaijan today is bad and getting worse quickly. On an almost
daily
basis, there are new violations of the most basic elements of religious
freedom.
Mosques and churches and shut down, believers are beaten, those who resist state
imposed religious conformity are jailed. If it remains on its current path, the
government of Azerbaijan will have eliminated religious freedom entirely within
a
few years
But this does not have to happen. With some pressure from the international
community, and specifically from the United States government, I think it is
very
likely that many of the most egregious intrusions into the realm of religious
freedom could be avoided. Azerbaijan is very sensitive to how it is perceived
by
the outside world, both because it is dependent on countries like the United
States
for defense and for diplomatic leverage against larger neighbors like Russia and
Iran, and because it values its role in international institutions like the
Council
of Europe, which many Azeris see as a stepping stone to eventual membership in
the
European Union.
However, the leaders of Azerbaijan will not change course and begin treating
religious freedom as a fundamental human right unless other countries and
international organizations make clear that they support religious freedom as a
matter of the utmost importance. This is because the experience, ideology and
political interests of these leaders all tell them that the only way to deal
with
religious people and religious beliefs is to suppress them.
As in many post-communist countries, Azerbaijan's leaders are not quite sure
what to do with religion. As secularists who shared in power under the old,
officially atheistic regime, these leaders understand religion as the opiate of
the
masses, a dangerous and destabilizing ideology of ultimately irrational thought
that
must be controlled by the state. In keeping with this idea of
faith-as-narcotic,
they attempt to suppress believes, religious addicts, if you will, the only way
they
know how: through top-down command and control
What is happening in Azerbaijan today should thus be viewed as the
resurrection of the worst methods of the Soviet Union's suppression of religious
belief. The Soviets used three primary methods in Azerbaijan. First, most
houses
of worship and other religious institutions were either demolished or closed.
Second, those religious institutions that were allowed to survive were
forced to become what I would call zombie mosques or churches, alive but
deadened by
the close supervision of a state-controlled religious umbrella organization.
Third, the Soviets suppressed all public manifestations of religious belief
and other forms of religious expression, including the printing of religious
texts,
and especially proselytization. Any nonofficial religious activity resulted in
jail
time or worse. The Azerbaijan government is now resorting to all three of these
Soviet methods: closure of houses of worship, a state-controlled religious
hierarchy, and suppression of all what they call unofficial religious
expression,
mainly because it thinks that countries like the United States will not notice
of
what is worse, will not care.
The most notorious example of the neo-Stalinist approach to religion in
Azerbaijan is what I was just telling you about, the government's campaign
against
the Juma Mosque. The police raid that I described was the culmination of the
pretty
long process. Our client rescued the mosque from being a carpet museum back in
the
early 1990s and then for 12 years they were worshipping freely as an independent
congregation in Baku, with no disturbance from the state. That peace was broken
last year. In October, presidential elections that Chairman Smith referred to
were
held and there were riots. The state authority seized upon that opportunity to
round up everyone they thought might be a problem to them. Among their targets
was
Imam Allahverdiev, who was able to take refuge at the Norwegian embassy at that
time, but he was eventually arrested by the police in December and held without
charges in Baku's Bayil prison, which by the way is where Stalin was
imprisoned.
The imam languished in prison for about five months and then a trial
convened with almost no notice, wherein he was convicted of inciting a riot on
the
basis of obviously conflicting and probably coerced testimony. The sentence was
suspended due to international pressure, which I think points out the fact that
international pressure can have an effect in Azerbaijan. This was in part
through
the activities of the American and especially Norwegian embassies who sent
observers
to the trial. The sentence is now on appeal in the Azerbaijani courts, and if
as I
think is likely, the domestic courts do not overturn the conviction, we will
almost
certainly bring an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
While the campaign against Imam Allahverdiev was going on, the state
authorities mounted a parallel attack on the Juma Mosque congregation itself.
The
Baku city government obtained an order to evict the Juma Mosque congregation
because
the congregation was not registered with the state controlled religious
hierarchy,
the Muslim Board of the Caucasus, as Chairman Smith was referring to earlier.
The
authorities waited for a couple of months, and then on June 30 they conducted
the
police raid that I was telling you about earlier. So I think you can see that
the
authorities are using all three of the Soviet methods to suppress the Juma
Mosque
congregation. The mosque has been closed. The congregation has been relegated
to
an illegal and now homeless status because it refuses to become part of the
state
religious hierarchy. The mosque's believers have been jailed for expressing
their
support for the imam that they chose
Other religious groups have also been victims of these Soviet methods. In
May of this year, two Seventh-Day Adventist pastors were fined for illegal
preaching
in the cities of Gyanja and Sumgayit. In addition, Adventist congregations have
been systematically denied state registration, making all of their religious
activities, according to the authorities, illegal
Perhaps the religious group that has been hit the hardest by the state
authorities is the Baptists. Baptist churches are routinely threatened by local
police, including "visits" during worship services. Pastors who travel from
church
to church preaching are often detained by police. In April 2002, the Eternal
Love
Church, Baku's Azeri-language Baptist congregation, was shut down by the State
Committee for Affairs of Religious Organizations. In addition, the state
committee
has prohibited Baptist churches from importing 50,000 Azeri-language New
Testaments
into Azerbaijan, leaving rural congregations without access to the Bible. Thus
the
Baptists, like the Adventists and the Juma Mosque congregation, are victims of
Azerbaijan's neo-Stalinist disregard for religious liberty.
So what can we, sitting here in Washington, do? I think quite a lot.
First, the United States government should unequivocally and publicly condemn
the
Azerbaijan government's activities directed at suppressing and controlling
Muslims,
Baptists, and Seventh-Day Adventists. Thus far, the United States government
has
been sending a mixed message to Azerbaijan. They are concerned about the
government's campaign against the Juma Mosque, but they are not condemning it.
Unfortunately, such subtleties will be lost on the government and the press in
Azerbaijan. Only a clear public condemnation of the suppression of religious
liberty will result in action by the government of Azerbaijan
The second thing some of us here in Washington can do is bring individual
pressure to bear on the Azerbaijan government. I can assure you that every
member
of Congress who brings their concerns about religious liberty in Azerbaijan to
the
attention of the Azerbaijan government will be taken very, very seriously.
Azerbaijan has sought the help of many in Congress, both in dealing with its
conflicts in the region and in obtaining financing for development projects in
Azerbaijan. A single letter or visit from a member could by itself have an
immediate impact on the state of religious liberty in Azerbaijan
The third thing we can do is make the Azerbaijan government aware of the
potential effect of the International Religious Freedom Act, commonly known as
IRFA,
that Chairman Smith was referring to earlier. The government's activities
clearly
bring it within the cope of what is called the "country of particular concern"
designation under IRFA. That could result in sanctions imposed by the United
States. At the very least, they should be put on the watch list, as Chairman
Smith
has just suggested. I certainly hope that they will be put on that watch list
Some might argue that to speak out on religious freedom in Azerbaijan would
harm the United States' other geopolitical interests in the region, but I think
that
is safe to say that our geopolitical interests will be advanced, not harmed, if
there is greater religious liberty in Azerbaijan. It is fundamentally in the
geopolitical interests of the United States that a moderate Muslim country like
Azerbaijan remain moderate. If religious belief and expression is forced
underground by the government, it is highly likely that Iran's influence on Shia
Muslim believers in Azerbaijan would increase exponentially. If Azerbaijan is
destabilized or even worse, taken over by Iranian-style Islamic militants,
American
interests will surely suffer.
Even more importantly, it is fundamentally in the interests of the United
States as a nation that loves liberty to see the first freedom that our nation
was
founded upon, religious liberty, protected in other countries. If it becomes
the
rule in the rest of the world that religious activity is something to be
managed by
the state, rather than something the state must respect, we will feel the
repercussions here in the United States
To conclude, I think it is fair to say that the situation of religious
freedom in Azerbaijan is dire, but not hopeless. If the international
community,
and especially the United States, makes it clear to Azerbaijan that respecting
religious liberty is the price it must pay to enter the ranks of the developed
nations, the Azerbaijan government will respond. On the other hand, if we do
nothing, the two most likely outcomes are neo-Stalinist repression or a
takeover by
Islamic militants.
The Becket Fund intends to continue pressing the government of Azerbaijan to
honor the right to religious freedom that it has guaranteed under various
international obligations like the ICCPR and the European Convention on Human
Rights. We are going to continue our lawsuit at the European Court of Human
Rights
and in other legal fora. Ultimately, however, the protection of religious
liberty
will be a matter of political will here, in other countries, and in Azerbaijan
Thank you
PRYOR: Thank you very much, Mr. Rassbach
I think what we are going to do is hear all three of the statements before
we open it for questions. So I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Carbonneau.
CARBONNEAU: My name is Andre Carbonneau. I would like to thank the members
of the U.S. Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe for allowing me to
testify on behalf of 8,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in Armenia. I will address two
issues. The first one is the issue of registration. The second one is the
issue of
conscientious objectors.
The Christian religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in the republic
of Armenia has been denied registration 11 times since 1995 to the present. The
11th denial was issued by the ministry of justice of the republic of Armenia a
little more than a month ago. The Council of Europe in its resolution dated
January
27, 2004 noted, and I quote, "despite commitments made and the assembly's
repeated
appeals, Jehovah's Witnesses are still not registered as a religious
organization."
It asks that "this registration be done without delay after their status has
been
brought into conformity with the legislation in force," end of quote
However, the denials by the republic of Armenia are based on various
administrative objections. In essence, the government of Armenia has by its
perpetual denials shown a clear pattern of finding fault on technical grounds
that
is designed to prevent Jehovah's Witnesses from registering. For example, in
the
denial a month ago, the main item for the denial was that the applicants had
forgotten to indicate the number of copies they were filing. These are just
plain
technicalities and totally meaningless
But when placed in the context of 11 denials over the past nine years, the
actions of the Armenian government give evidence of a clear prejudice against
Jehovah's Witnesses, not to mention Armenia's blatant rejection of their
commitment
to the Council of Europe to register nontraditional religions. If the
government of
Armenia is truly committed to honor its human rights commitments, as well as
international agreements, then we submit to this committee that Armenia should
discontinue any further delay tactics and register Jehovah's Witnesses promptly
The result of the refusal to register Jehovah's Witnesses' is that
importation of religious literature is outlawed. Religious conventions of
Jehovah's
Witnesses must be held in utmost secrecy. Police have broken these up in the
past.
So only registration will cure these serious defects.
The second issue is the issue of conscientious objectors. As of yesterday
July 20, there were 14 Jehovah's Witnesses in prison in Armenia for their
conscientious objection to military service. At the beginning of this year,
three
new arrests were made for conscious objectors. It is true that in the past,
some
prisoners have been released on probation, but some of these have had their
passports confiscated, while others are being denied essential identification
documents. They are being punished even out of prison
On January 25, 2001, Armenia's accession to the Council of Europe was
granted on the condition, among other conditions, but on the condition that
within
three years Armenia would adopt a law on alternative service and in the meantime
pardon all in prison conscientious objectors. In December 2003, the Armenian
parliament did adopt a law allowing three-years military service not involving
the
use of arms, or alternative service of three-and-a-half years. However, in its
resolution 1361, the Council of Europe stated that the three-and-a-half years of
alternative service was, quote, "unacceptable and excessive." It was really
punitive, and should be reduced to three years.
Additionally, the resolution demanded that imprisoned conscientious
objectors be, quote, "released immediately by presidential pardon pending the
entry
into force on July 1, 2004 of the law on alternative civilian service," end of
quote. Armenia has ignored these demands. The prisoners remain in prison.
Furthermore, the alternative service arrangement provided for by new
legislation, it is not known at this time how and under whose supervision this
service would be carried out. Is it truly alternative civilian service? It is
impossible to answer that question at the present. Regardless, no prisoners
have
been released under the new legislation
In referring to the recent arrests and imprisonment, a spokesman for
Jehovah's Witnesses in Armenia stated, and I quote him, "What makes it
especially
unsettling is that these are honest, hard-working young men who are willing to
perform alternative civilian service, and thereby be productive members of
society,
without going against their conscience. These young Witness men do not evade
the
responsibility. In fact, they themselves, they turned themselves in knowing
the law
as it stands now. But as long as the process continues, they are
criminalized," end
of quote
So we are saddened and dismayed by the fact that the Armenian government
continues to imprison Jehovah's Witnesses who are conscientious objectors.
This is
in direct contradiction to our Armenia's human rights commitments to the
Council of
Europe that requires them to release all those in prison as conscientious
objectors.
We remain hopeful that the Armenian government will abide by its human
rights commitments to establish genuine alternative civilian service for
conscientious objectors such as Jehovah's Witnesses. At this time we would
also add
that three applications have been filed with the European Court of Human Rights
regarding the issue of conscientious objectors
So in conclusion, on behalf of Jehovah's Witnesses, we wish to thank the
U.S. Helsinki Commission for its continued interest in the plight of Jehovah's
Witnesses in the Caucasus and in particular in Armenia. Jehovah's Witnesses in
Armenia are peaceful, law-abiding citizens whose only desire is to worship God
without persecution or restriction they endured for decades under the former
Soviet
regime. We continue to express our confidence that the government of Armenia
will
not deny its own citizens the fundamental human rights that belong to all
citizens
Thank you
PRYOR: Thank you very much
I would now like to turn the floor over to Dr. Crego. You have the floor,
sir
CREGO: I am Paul Crego. I work at the Library of Congress, but we always
have to say when we speak in such venues that I do not represent the Library of
Congress with my opinions, particularly in this field
I have recently returned from a two-week stay in the republic of Georgia,
where my primary task this time was to obtain as much religious periodical
literature as I could, in part to compare with what I was able to obtain in
October
2002, and also in comparison to what the situation was when I was there in the
summer of 1990
This time, I was able to collect more than 40 different titles. Most of
these were Orthodox and most of them were publications that had the blessing of
the
Georgian Orthodox Church under the patriarchate of Ilia II. The only place you
could find any Jewish literature was at the synagogue. The only place you could
find any Roman Catholic literature was at the Roman Catholic Church.
On the streets, you could find Orthodox material that did not have the
blessing of the official church, some of it of some sort of independent nature
and
some of it belonging more directly to two schismatic Orthodox groups within
Georgia,
one of which includes the notorious Father Basil.
In the several years of its independence, the new republic of Georgia has
experienced a whole series of conflicts, political battles including the
removal of
two sitting presidents, ethnic strife, particularly in the breakaway regions of
South Ossetia and Abkhazia, severe economic hardships and interference by
imperial
powers. All of these have beset the Georgian nation. Despite these conflicts,
many
have worked for the establishment of a civil society and a democratic state in
which
basic human rights, including the freedom of religion, are recognized and
encouraged
During this time, however, religious freedom has been a concept that has
sometimes been more a matter of lip service than reality. The dominant Georgian
Orthodox Church is still working to fix its place in the new definition of this
nation, a striving that has been complicated by its own internal dissensions,
schisms, the presence of a variety of other religions and Christian
denominations,
some historically present in Georgia and some not.
At the present time, one must also ask what the new government, born of the
Rose Revolution in November 2003 and headed by President Saakashvili, Prime
Minister
Zhvania, and Parliament Speaker Burjanadze, means for the development of human
rights and specifically for the principles and practice of religious freedom.
The new government has given some mixed signals. Certainly, the arrest and
detention of Father Basil Mkalavishvili in March, a defrocked priest relating to
schismatic Greek Old Calendarists, was sure sign of progress. His campaign of
physical violence and intimidation against non-Orthodox, especially against
Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals, and Baptists and his impunity during
Shevardnadze's presidency, was sure evidence that Georgian society had some way
to
go to match its self-claims of tolerance
If it were only the schismatic followers of Father Basil who promoted
violence with their actions and rhetoric, we would be looking now more
hopefully for
a time of peaceful religious coexistence. Priests of the Georgian Orthodox
Church
itself, that is the one under Patriarch Ilia, have sometimes participated in
violent
activity, and such an incident occurred while I was in Georgia, after some
Orthodox
Christians had pulled on the patriarch and the church to move out of its
isolation
into a broader participation in the ecumenical movement.
Deacon, I will get the name later if you want to ask more details about
that, but some of these individuals had gone on Rustavi 2, which is one of the
most
watched TV stations in Georgia, and they had made a public request for the
church to
be more open. In fact right after this appearance on television on Friday the
fourth of June, they were followed by what is described in the article as a
deep red
Opel car that followed them around and hit them several times after this
appearance. They have also had direct confrontations with some of the priests
of
the Orthodox Church
On the other hand, there are some individuals who assured me not take these
fanatics as representative of the Georgian church. One of them in particular
was
Mother Theodora, who is abbess of the convent at the Cathedral of Bodbe, which
is in
eastern Georgia. Her own example of praying with a group of us, including what
some
would call infidels from their perspective, was something that a lot of Orthodox
just would not have done in Georgia
Returning to the new government, Saakashvili, in his inaugural speech and
elsewhere, has promoted the idea that Georgia's primary identity as a Christian
nation makes it a part of Europe and European civilization. I quote from his
inaugural address: "At the same time let the return to our rightful place, lost
several centuries ago, to the European family, to European civilization, not be
forgotten. As a country of a very old Christian civilization, we will most
certainly return to this place."
Two flags fly now in the republic of Georgia: the new explicitly Christian
five-cross flag and the multi-starred flag of the European Union. Saakashvili
makes
reference to the European flag in his inaugural address. This new Georgian flag
already leaves out Jews and Muslims. Significantly, Saakashvili does not refer
specifically to Orthodox Christianity when he speaks of the ancient Christian
civilization to which Georgia belongs, in a sense finessing the issue as to how
European Orthodox Christian nations have been or are now
Among the hopeful signs under the new government is the creation of a human
rights council announced by Saakashvili on July 19 to monitor human rights
violations in Georgia and to report to him directly in a monthly meting. The
jury
is really still out on whether the practice of the Saakashvili government can
meet
its talk in the area of human rights, including religious freedom. Perhaps we
will
learn more if the Georgian parliament works soon on legislation concerning
religion,
which has been in the works for several years
One of the troubling signs from the new government is its rehabilitation of
Georgia's first president, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, in which President Saakashvili
has
participated. This has implications for the practice of religious tolerance in
the
republic of Georgia. In a statement in one of the newspapers I picked up while
I
was there, Saakashvili was reaching beyond the Shevardnadze government to claim
some
legitimate succession from Gamsakhurdia, referring to the takeover by
Shevardnadze
and his associates as a reestablishment of the old Soviet nomenclature.
Gamsakhurdia himself, although his self-proclaimed Orthodoxy was overlaid
with the anthroposophy of Rudolf Steiner, promoted a distinct program of
Orthodox
church-Georgian state cooperation in such spheres as education. It is
interesting
now that anthroposophy and Steinerism have come under attack in Madli, which
means "Grace," the monthly newspaper of the Georgian Patriarchate. In any
event,
Gamsakhurdia's "Georgia for the Georgians" ideology included, for the most
part, an
insistence on Orthodoxy as a part of Georgian identity.
Baptist Bishop Malkhaz Songhulashvili, with whom I talked while in Georgia,
expressed his concern over Gamsakhurdia's rehabilitation. He is quite convinced
that the current government's profession of democratic principles and upholding
of
human rights are contradicted by this activity.
The most intolerant strains of Orthodoxy claim Zviad Gamsakhurdia as their
own. One small religious magazine in particular, called Metexi, which is named
for
a church in Tbilisi, has articles by and about Gamsakhurdia, and also articles
on
the Jewish-Masonic conspiracy that runs the United States. It is likely that
this
magazine represents a small number of people. One can also make the same claim
that
Father Basil and his thugs are also a small group of people, but they have had
influence far outside of their numbers, and seem to have been representing some
very
powerful people.
Gamsakhurdia himself was a lesson in how we should have paid closer
attention to some of the more offbeat religious ideas of a would-be national
leader. It should also be noted that such "conspiracies" against Orthodoxy and
true
religion are not just in the unsanctioned publications. While I was there I
picked
up a small book by Eldar Nadiradze called Who Are the Jehovah's Witnesses and
How Do
The Do Battle Against Orthodoxy? His book starts out by promoting a context of
a
Masonic conspiracy for the rise of the Jehovah's Witnesses. This book has the
imprimatur of Metropolitan Anania Japaridze, the house historian among the
hierarchs
of the official Georgian Church
Attention to the internal debates within the Georgian Orthodox Church itself
are very important as we consider the future of religious tolerance in the
republic
of Georgia. The current Patriarch, Ilia II, has continually lobbied for the
preeminence of the Georgian Orthodox Church within his country. The concordat
of
October 2002, which has been mentioned, is testimony to this.
Ilia has been pressured, and has sometimes given in to the pressures of
conservatives within the church. The exit of the church from various ecumenical
bodies in 1997 is an example of his giving into the pressure. Some give him the
benefit of the doubt on this and related matters, but a reading of Ilia's own
writings would indicate that he is sometimes more on the side of the
conservatives
and not completely comfortable with the norms of Western democratic freedoms
and a
pluralistic society. He is fearful of the moral and ethical implications of
what he
considers to be pseudo freedoms. The Patriarchate openly urges suppression of
those
sects and movements that are not historical to Georgia. The historical list in
Georgia is: Orthodoxy, the Armenian Church, Islam, Judaism, Baptists,
Lutherans and
Roman Catholics.
This is done, to some extent, on theological grounds, but also on the
premise that non-Orthodox, whether historically a part of the Georgian nation or
not, put the identity of the Georgian nation at risk. This is especially true
when
the Jehovah's Witnesses are under consideration. This criticism is also to be
kept
in mind when the difficult relations between the Georgian Orthodox Church and
Roman
Catholicism are under consideration. The Patriarch has also been quite
outspoken in
support of the idea that Abkhazia is historically an inseparable part of Georgia
That the church is a repository of nationalism is something that is quite
noticeable these days. Nowhere was it more visible on my recent trip than in
the
newly constructed Church of St. Tamar. Tamar was one of the rulers of Georgia
at
its height in the middle ages. It is under construction on Dolidze Street in
Tbilisi. While the fresco program has not been executed, there are several
icons
with collections of national saints. Most notable were the icon of Georgian
ruler
saints, and an icon that went with that of Georgian queen-saints. Copies of
these
icons are found in other churches as well
It is interesting that the government is using the consecration of the new
cathedral of the Holy Trinity in Tbilisi as a symbol of national unity. While
I was
there, Saakashvili and Zhvania went to see the patriarch, and I think they were
very
concerned about the date of the cathedral's consecration being moved too far
into
the future. They wanted this as a symbol for part of their own agenda
I made two other observations in the context of religion and nationality
while in Tbilisi. The Polish inscription is no longer on the cornerstone on the
Roman Catholic Church in Tbilisi, and the sign on the Baptist Church that used
to be
in four languages, Georgian, Armenian, Ossetian and Russian, is no longer
there. My
assumption is that these churches do not want to advertise their foreign
connections
The struggle for the soul of the Georgian church between those who desire a
more open church and those who want to continue and strengthen its isolation
will
likely become more intense in the near future. The patriarch's age means that
people will be handicapping the election for his successor. While the contest
for
the Bishopric of Rome cautions us not to make too many assumptions about the
longevity of the incumbent, the jockeying for position can still be
instructive.
Those who have been described as fundamentalists, a term used by Baptist Bishop
Malkhaz, would promote less tolerance and would take it upon themselves in the
future, as they have in the past, to suppress, sometimes violently, other
religions. Others such as Archpriest Basil Kobakhidze, and that is the name I
was
looking for before, are outspoken in their calls for more discussion and
promotion
from within the church of such issues as religious freedom and a democratic and
pluralistic society
Conclusions. Saakashvili wants Georgia to appear tolerant to the West. He
knows that this is necessary for both political and financial reasons. Father
Basil's detention is certainly in support of this. Does he believe other
matters
are off the radar screen? Perhaps. I think it is important to note that at
this
point in time that the Georgian leaders know English very well, and that they
can
make their case in English and do not have to rely on translations. I think it
behooves our government to find out also what people are writing and saying in
Georgian, to which people in this country have very, very little access. I
make the
claim that I am the only person in the United States who has both theology
degrees
and a reading knowledge of Georgian. I have not been challenged on that yet.
It is too early to give a firm answer about the new government. But more
important, I believe, is the struggle within the Georgian Orthodox Church
itself and
among its future leaders and this in the context of how the church continues to
insist that it is a primary denominator of national identity
Thank you
PRYOR: Thank you very much.
I want to thank all three of our speakers for really very interesting and
provocative statements that they have given us today
We are going to open the floor now for questions. You should come up to the
microphone here if you want to ask a question. If we could ask you to please
identify yourself and your affiliation so that we know who is asking questions
I am going to take the prerogative of the chair and ask the first question
here. I am going to direct it to Mr. Rassbach. In your discussion of many of
the
problems at the Juma Mosque community, the Adventists and so on have had, it
would
appear that the government of Azerbaijan was contravening many of the OSCE
commitments that it has undertaken. You noted a number of things that you
thought
the United States government and other governments could do to encourage them
along
a different path. Are there specific steps that you think either the United
States
embassy in Baku or the State Department or the U.S. government in general can
take,
or possibly the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom could make
that
would further the process
RASSBACH: I think that, as I mentioned, just an unequivocal statement that
kicking people out of their house of worship and jailing them for attempting to
worship there is wrong. I think that would be a good start. Actually, I
should say
that Ambassador Harnish, who is the U.S. ambassador to Azerbaijan did show up
at the
mosque at one of the time periods after the police invasion, but before they
closed
it down completely, and that was very helpful.
So I think there is willingness as far as I can tell to be involved, but not
to be necessarily unequivocal about it. I think that if we can just be very
clear
from the top on down that religious freedom is something that we really value in
Azerbaijan, and we are not just giving lip service to it, that that would be
something very helpful.
I believe you also mentioned what the USCIRF could do. I think that there
is definitely just the idea of asking the State Department to put them, they
have
the watch list and if you could put Azerbaijan on the watch list. Frankly, I
think
that they probably have enough under the way the law is written to be
designated as
CPC now, but there is the watch list step before that. As Chairman Smith
suggested,
I think that that would definitely be a good first step
I think it would also be a wake-up call to the government of Azerbaijan that
this is not just something that someone is doing to placate a constituency here
in
the United States, but it is something that actually is U.S. government policy.
PRYOR: Thank you very much
We are going to open it to the floor now. Who would like to ask the first
question? I see a hand here.
SALAEV: I am Elman Salaev, Azerbaijan Democratic Party. My question is to
Mr. Rassbach. The closure of Juma Mosque is a tragedy. The way people of that
congregation were dealt with is a tragedy. But I want you to comment more on
the
general political situation in Azerbaijan, because while speaking about Ilgar
Ibrahimoglu, who is the imam, you fail to mention the fact that he was
sentenced for
five years conditional in Azerbaijan for allegedly organizing the violence
after the
elections. It is very important because after the elections, the old political
freedoms in Azerbaijan have been suppressed. Hundreds of people were jailed.
The
members of election committees were jailed. Ilgar Ibrahimoglu is one of them.
The
reason why Juma Mosque was closed, the first reason is that Ilgar Ibrahimoglu is
perceived as an opponent of the government.
The second thing is that any not subordination is considered in Azerbaijan,
especially now, as a bad thing. This particular mosque is not subordinated to
the
organization of Caucasus Muslims or whatever the name is. I want to hear your
comments on that
There is a second question, which I want to ask. It has to do generally
with religious freedoms in Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan has always been perceived as
religious a very tolerant society. There has never been any problems with
regard
to, let's say, the Jewish community or preaching, nothing with regard to
religious
freedom has ever been done. Azerbaijan now in September, two resolutions of the
Council of Europe on Azerbaijan will be discussed. One on political prisoners,
and
another on democratic institutions in Azerbaijan.
There are several recommendations, around 12 on the second resolution. It
has to do with investigation of the flawed presidential elections. It has to do
with political prisoners, the creation of the public to admit many things.
There is
not a single one mentioning the religious tolerance of Azerbaijan because
whatever
is happening is a part of the bigger, broader problem which is the political
freedoms in Azerbaijan. It is not just the religious manifestations which are
not
allowed any protestations, which are now not allowed
Three days ago, the editor-in-chief of one of the most influential
newspapers was kidnapped, beaten. They asked him whoever did that, and they
certainly believe that it is connected to the government. They asked him to
stop
all his journalism activity.
So when you said that maybe it is a very good idea, and I agree with you, to
ask as many as possible members of Congress to write to the government that the
religious freedom should be respected, I wonder if you could put it in the
context
of the whole thing. The political freedoms in Azerbaijan should be respected.
The
problem with the religious freedoms is that they are just a part of that broader
problem
Thank you very much
RASSBACH: Thanks for the questions
First off, I would encourage everyone to pick up some of the materials out
there. I have some extended remarks in which I talk about the five-year
suspended
sentence and our activities on behalf of Imam Ilgar in that regard. I just
tried to
shave it down a little bit for the speaking part of this presentation. I hope
I met
my limit
In any case, I do not mean to ignore the political aspect of the oppression
of religious groups in Azerbaijan. I think that the two are clearly
intertwined.
However, what I specialize in as a lawyer is religious freedom. What we are
representing the mosque on is their ability to worship. There are other wrongs
that
are being done against them and they are being targeted for their alleged
political
associations. But I do not think that you can reduce it to a political
problem. I
think that religious freedom is the reason this country exists, because people
came
over here to escape these kinds of problems in Europe in the 17th century
I think that the ability to express a world view, to live one's life out
according to the values that one feels that God or some other divine aspects
that
influences them to do that, I think is at the core of what it means to be
human. So
I do not want to reduce this to a political conflict and Ilgar is just one side
or
the other. He is actually very much religiously motivated in this. I want to
emphasize that
That said, everything that is happening in Azerbaijan, it is clear that
religious freedom is just one of many different freedoms that are currently
being
violated, and that there are a lot of problems with due process, democratic
institutions and other things. I think it is probably outside the scope of this
briefing, but I certainly do not want to downplay that or say that The Becket
Fund
or Eric Rassbach says that there are no political problems in Azerbaijan.
There are
very deep political problems, and this is one manifestation of that
I do think that what you said about no insubordination. They are not
joining the religious hierarchy. That is probably the main reason that they are
being targeted by the Azerbaijan government is that they refuse to join the
Caucasus
Muslims, which basically says we are going to run all of Muslim worship within
Azerbaijan. That just does not comport with basic human rights. You do not
force a
church on someone. Actually, we have a letter that we wrote to the Azerbaijan
appeals court outside on the table in which we point out that European Court of
Human Rights case law is very clear that you cannot force people to join one
religious organization. These cases, unfortunately, tend to come up in post
communist societies.
I hope I answered everything
PRYOR: Thank you very much for that response. I might also say that those
people who are interested in the broader range of political issues in the
Caucasus
might want to look at some of the materials we have both on our Web site, where
we
have country-by-country sets of information. Also on the table outside we have
reports on the recent elections in Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia that you may
want
to take a look at. Those are Helsinki Commission reports
Now, who else has a question? In the front row here
SEDARIUS (ph): Hello. I am Eugenia Sedarius (ph) from the State
Department. I thank the witnesses for their testimony today.
I have a question for Mr. Carbonneau. Sir, the government of Armenia told
our embassy in Yerevan that they at the time of the adoption of the law on
alternative service for conscientious objectors, that they did not have
administrative regulations in place, and had not yet considered how to write
administrative regulations in order to implement the law. They told us that
they
were welcome to get legal advice and counsel from outside groups and consult
with
NGOs on this matter.
I wonder if you or other members of the Jehovah's Witness organization have
taken advantage of that? I would be very interested to hear what the responses
of
the government if you or other such nongovernmental organizations were to go in
and
offer specific recommendations for these regulations.
CARBONNEAU: I have no knowledge of the Jehovah's Witnesses having been
approached on the issue.
SEDARIUS (ph): No, sir, the government I do not think is openly soliciting
them. They are sort of "we welcome," so they are not. I do not think that is
going
to happen anytime soon. But what I am saying is, it would be useful to know if
your
organization does approach perhaps with the help of the human rights
ombudsperson to
provide specific recommendations in order to implement the law in an effective
way
We understand what the complaints are of the Council of Europe. We hope
that the government of Armenia takes that under advisement and reduces the
length of
alternative service for conscientious objectors. But until that time, they are
kind
of looking around for a way to construct these administrative regulations. The
input of this organization would undoubtedly be helpful
CARBONNEAU: I understand they have had input from the Council of Europe
that has worked on this issue in Greece extensively, where they have implemented
alternative service and adequate laws. The basic ingredient is simply real
civilian
alternative service separated from the military, from the point of view of
Jehovah's
Witnesses. I believe from our conversation, the government has that
information.
Obviously if there is more that we could supply them with, we would be happy to
do
so
PRYOR: I see a hand over here.
NIZIBLIAN: Hi. My name is Abraham Niziblian. I am with the Armenian
National Committee of America here in Washington, D.C. I thank all three
panelists
for the briefings.
My question is, first, Mr. Carbonneau, I unfortunately missed and I am
trying to read your whole presentation, but I would like to know, you work on
the
Jehovah's Witnesses issue, but is there any other religious freedom issues that
you
would like to share with us here? I know that Armenia is usually an open
society.
Jehovah's Witnesses have been an exception, unfortunately, but what about other
religious freedoms in Armenia? If there is any way you can address that, I
would
greatly appreciate it. Thank you
CARBONNEAU: Basically, being denied registration pretty well limits you to
any open manifestation such as rental of premises, holding of conventions. The
Jehovah's Witnesses do have congregational meetings. These have not been
interfered
with by police. However, they do not own any building. These are done in
private
homes and the like. They do preach openly and are occasionally harassed, but
by and
large they enjoy more freedom in that area than they did, for example, in
Georgia
during the time of the violence in Georgia.
But on the very basic element of being registered, being able to import
their literature and being able to have conventions, rent premises, this is
absolutely denied. And any attempt to do it has immediate intervention by
police
forces.
PRYOR: Let me just also ask the Helsinki Commission Council Knox Thames to
comment on the broader range of the religious situation in Armenia
THAMES: I would just highlight for the audience here today that there is a
Congressional Record statement from Chairman Smith from about a year ago where
he
highlighted some other concerns in the legal sense in Armenia, specifically
their
religion law and article 14 and the four-prong test that the government created
in
determining if a group applying for registration is in fact religious.
Congressman
Smith pointed out that it is problematic in the way that it places the
government in
the role of determining what is or what is not a religion.
Three of the prongs I will highlight. One, it asks if the religion is based
on a historically canonized holy book, and asks if the faith belongs to a
system of
modern worldwide religious church communities. Then lastly, it has a numerical
threshold of 200.
So in addition to the Jehovah's Witnesses experiencing problems meeting this
test, smaller communities that do not have 200 members such as Baptists or Hare
Krishnas, I am told, cannot even begin the registration process because they do
not
meet the numerical threshold.
So to your question, sir, that is just one of the legal issues that it would
be nice if the government could address to bring this law into conformity with
its
OSCE commitments
PRYOR: Further questions?
MCNAMARA: Yes. Ron McNamara with the Helsinki Commission.
We have just touched on the question of the legal framework. I wonder if
the panelists might elaborate a little further with respect to Armenia. You
have
touched on the registration requirements. In fact, I think it was in this very
room
that the Commission held a briefing several years back on the question of
registration.
As Americans, I think it is hard for us to appreciate the consequences of
having laws on religion as all of the countries do, and the question of
registration
and what the limitations are if you do not have that kind of a status. With
respect
to Azerbaijan, certainly under the prior President Aliyev I imagine once he
heard
criticism he picked up the phone and told whoever the bureaucrats were to do
whatever they needed to do to fix it.
One of the concerns that I always have in that kind of a scenario, and I am
not sure whether the current President Aliyev is following that model or not,
is the
question of the rule of law. It is one thing to get a powerful leader to pick
up
the phone and get the bureaucrats to ease off at least temporarily, but it is a
whole other question in terms of the legal framework within which individuals or
communities of believers are allowed to pursue their faith in conformity with
the
OSCE commitments that each of the states has undertaken. I wonder if you might
elaborate a little further.
And then one question for the expert on Georgia. You mentioned sort of an
anti-Semitic component of one of the booklets of one of the perhaps fringe
groups.
I wonder if there are any elements reflected in the documents with the
imprimatur of
the head of the Georgian Orthodox Church.
RASSBACH: OK. Thanks for that question.
I do think, perhaps because I'm a lawyer, that the legal implications are
very important in Azerbaijan. Traditionally in Azerbaijan, the way things get
done,
and when I am saying "traditionally," I am probably actually talking about
during
the Soviet period as well, but certainly since independence generally speaking
if
the president says to do X, then everyone does X. If it is a question on which
the
president has not yet expressed his opinion, everyone tries not to do anything.
So there is a real problem with establishing the rule of law there because
they definitely have sort of a strongman idea of government there. I think in
particular when you have this leftover Soviet system where you have, first of
all
you have a registration requirement, so to have any ability to do anything
under the
law, you have to be registered as a religious organization. That is the same
problem that Mr. Carbonneau was talking about in Armenia.
But then there is also both sort of an official state church, so there would
be an official state Russian Orthodox Church, an official state Muslim Board, in
this case the Muslim Board of the Caucasus. And then even above that, there is
a
special ministry that I mentioned in my remarks called the State Committee for
the
Affairs of Religious Organizations, or SCARO as I like to call it. Basically,
that
organization has a vested interest under the law in putting in all kinds of
permits
and registration requirements and various other things because if you have the
situation that you have in the U.S. with complete religious freedom, they would
have
no reason to exist
So for them to have any reason to exist or probably to make some money, they
have to go in and restrict religious activity. Otherwise, there is no point to
them. That is a real problem and it is a real problem in a lot of different
places,
communist countries in my experience.
So I guess I would say that in terms of the legal superstructure, first of
all just a generalized respect for rule of law would be helpful. Second,
getting
rid of something like the state committee would be very useful because there is
not
really under Azerbaijan's international law legal commitments, any point to
having
such an organization.
And then third, this attempted requirement, I am not against registration in
the abstract, but as it tends to get applied, especially in post-communist
countries, it does not work. Here, we only have registration if you want
tax-exempt
status, and there all you have to do is just prove that you have some good-faith
religious activity going on. You cannot pretend to be religious and get the
religious charitable exemption under the Internal Revenue Code, but that is
essentially the closest thing we have to registration. Often, churches or
mosques,
they will register with the state, too, as a corporation, but it is nothing
like in
the post-Soviet world which is just arcane and Byzantine, as I am sure Mr.
Carbonneau can probably tell us at length.
So I would just say getting rid of registration would great, but if you do
have it, do not require membership in the state church as a precondition to
being
registered. Registration should be a neutral process that is applied to all
different religious groups equally
PRYOR: Mr. Carbonneau, do you want to comment
CARBONNEAU: I will make a very brief comment on both of those questions.
The existence of law and religion is foreign to our Western concept. We are
under a constitution and religion exists according to the laws of the country,
the
constitution, basic religious freedoms.
In these countries, it is my perception that the law on religion is used or
hoped to be used as a control factor. They will control religious groups that
are
not the national religion, through these laws on religion. The Armenia
experience
is quite clear. Using the law on religion, it is hoped now for several years
that
any legality can be denied to groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, in spite of
the
fact that the constitution guarantees religious freedom.
So the law on religion becomes a barrier, making it much more difficult in
these post-Soviet countries where the rule of law is very difficult to
implement.
Then, officials do what they want ultimately with the law. So by the 11
denials of
the registration, if one reads every one of the denial letters, it is simply
using
something in the law on religion that can be twisted to mean this, you forgot
to put
your three copies. I must deny you. Whereas under a constitution guaranteeing
freedom of religion, you could not do that
And with regard to the rule of law, well we have had experience in the
courts in Armenia with the issue of conscientious objectors. We have been
totally
unsuccessful. That is why the cases are in front of the European Court. There
was
a trial a few years ago of Leova Makrien (ph), I believe. Attempts were made to
imprison him under an old Soviet law for his activities in the congregation.
It was
mainly due to the presence of foreign officials such as the OSCE who were in
court
at every hearing that the judge had the courage to apply the law. The rule of
law
worked in that instance
The prosecutor attempted on appeal in the supreme court to reverse the
decision, but failed, but there was lots of publicity given to the case. So the
rule of law will work if the eyes of the international community are on the
country. If the international community is not looking, then the rule of law
becomes quite meaningless
PRYOR: Thank you
Dr. Crego, would you like to comment
CREGO: The legal situation in Georgia is still in flux. There are
constitutional guarantees, and certainly the concordat with the Georgian
Orthodox
Church puts them at a distinct advantage in relation to all of the other
religion,
sects, denominations and such. We are still waiting, really, for a law on
religion
that will define some of these things
I know that if you are not the Georgian Orthodox Church, you would have
trouble getting property and buildings. Sometimes it has been a case, though,
where
it is not so much government suppression, but it is suppression by other
members in
the society.
The question about whether or not some of the more official literature has
anything to say about Jews. No. I have not read everything. I have not read
the
stack of things I brought back yet. That is becoming more and more of a moot
point
in Georgia. About 90 percent of the Jews have now immigrated, mainly to Israel,
since Jews could start leaving the Soviet Union in the 1970s. So the Jewish
population of Georgia, one which is quite ancient going back 2,500 years or so,
has
changed radically
So when some of these books do talk abut Jewish this and that, it is for
them now more of an abstraction than it ever was. It is not something they
meet on
the street. The synagogue in Tbilisi seemed to be flourishing. It was all
fixed
up, all painted and decorated and they were, I supposed you might call him the
beadle, I am not sure what, the sexton or maybe he was just an old man waiting
for
visitors. He was quite anxious to have two of us take the tour of the
synagogue,
upstairs in the synagogue, downstairs. I am not quite sure why there was one
on top
of the other. His Russian and his Georgian were both somewhat dialectical
compared
to what our Russian and Georgian was. So I have to answer that question for
myself.
PRYOR: Thank you
More questions
COSMAN (ph): Cathy Cosman, U.S. Commission on International Religious
Freedom
While I personally agree that the situation in Azerbaijan unfortunately is
taking a distinct turn in the wrong direction, I do not believe that under the
IRFA
criteria Azerbaijan is near reaching CPC status. Perhaps it would rise, or I
might
say fall to the status of watch list, and I hope my commission will take that
under
consideration
I wanted to call to your attention also one legal aspect regarding
Azerbaijan. That has to do with the fact that in 1993, as I understand it, the
religion law was fairly liberal, but in 1997 there was an amendment passed which
only at that point were the mosques required to come under, so-called
voluntarily,
put themselves under the supervision and control of the Spiritual Board of the
Caucasus. The Spiritual Board of the Caucasus, as I understand it, dates back
to
tsarist times and it is rather significant that that control mechanism, the
government at that point in Azerbaijan deemed it necessary to call it back into
life
Of course, what is going on with the Juma Mosque is particularly
unfortunate. I think the potential contributions that Azerbaijan could make
and is
making in various ways to liberal Islam and how Islam can function and make very
positive contributions in the secular society is something that the U.S.
government
and the OSCE countries as a whole should take into account
Apropos of Georgia, I wanted to ask what you think the U.S. government could
be doing to encourage the Georgian government to adopt a liberal law on
religion. I
have gotten indications from the foreign minister of Georgia that they are very
concerned about the issue of freedom of religion and they are doing their best
to
see that that is actually brought about in practice and in law
Thanks
RASSBACH: Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion that this might be taken up
on the watch list examination. I agree that the situation became a lot worse.
The
initial situation immediately post-independence for religious freedom in
Azerbaijan
was much better than it is today, in part because of the amendment to the state
law
on religion in the mid-1990s
We actually have some argument about that in our brief that is outside on
the table, if you want to plow through some European Court of Human Rights case
law. But yes, they actually required everyone to re-register. In our case, the
mosque attempted to re-register, but they did not want to re-register with the
Muslim Board of the Caucasus. So what the government has said is that that
essentially meant that the mosque as a separate religious organization, as a
legal
entity, ceased to exist, even though it had previously registered in 1992 and in
1993 with both the Baku city government and the ministry of justice.
All that is just to say that they did register and they essentially tried to
yank the registration later to force them to come under this religious umbrella
organization, which the immediate predecessor to it is the Spiritual Board of
Trans
Caucasia, which Stalin founded in 1944. So great lineage there.
I guess the other thing that I really think should be highlighted in what
you just said is the idea of moderate Islam being here. Ilgar is not a fire
breathing mullah in the stereotypical sense that we often see in newspapers
about
Islamic imams over here. I was glad that you pointed out that Azerbaijan could
make
a real contribution to moderate Islam. Ilgar is somebody who wears turtlenecks
around and talks to me about his bicycling habit he wants to take up because he
had
some health problems due to his incarceration in prison.
If you read anything he has written, of which there is quite a lot on his
Web site, he really is trying to reconcile Western liberal thinking with the
tenets
of Islam in a very creative way. That is the reason that so many people support
him. Every foreign embassy in Baku favors him and it is why he gets involved in
various human rights conferences, why he was under consideration for special
rapporteur at the United Nations on freedom of religion. It's because he is a
very
rare bird, of an extremely moderate Islamic cleric. And I think that to really
support him would be something very much in the U.S. interests on Islam.
So I'm glad you brought that up. Thanks.
PRYOR: Anybody else like to comment on that
CREGO: In terms of what the United States government can do in encouraging
liberal religious law in Georgia, I think partly it is education on both sides
of
the United States and Georgia, paying particular attention to where the Georgian
Orthodox Church is in its own internal discussions, and from our point of view
encouraging those who within the church who are taking a more liberal stance.
I think sometimes the government in Georgia, I think particularly when there
is a concordat about to be signed with the Vatican, had ignored the Georgian
Orthodox Church altogether. I still cannot figure out what they were thinking
on
any side of that issue when they did that. Of course, the whole thing went up
in
flames
Were they cognizant of where the church is on this issue, because it claims
a very, very real hold on Georgian society, with all of these new churches being
built and with a very real attitude about it. I always put it this way, the
very
soil in Georgia is holy. I brought some back from a monk's grave. I did not
bring
it today with me, but at one monk who will probably be canonized in the near
future,
there were just busloads of people coming in and getting some resonance off of
that
grave in the old capital of Ossetia. And the poor nun who was sitting there
telling
people not to take too much dirt was fighting a losing battle. I think she was
in
charge of replenishing it.
So we have to be very aware of how deeply religious the Georgian people are
when we talk about liberal law. I was in Armenia for two weeks before I as in
Georgia for two weeks. The contrast in religiosity was remarkable, with the
Armenians being less so and the Georgians just being much more. I went to one
church for a Pentecost liturgy and never got in the church because it was so
full,
that sort of thing
So it is going to be very difficult for the government to do that. It is
not something they will be just able to propose and impose on their own
principle of
democratic reform.
THAMES: If I could just make an addition. As far as Georgian law
concerning religious freedom, I personally think a specific law on religion is
not
the right way to go, but rather many of the issues or many of the concerns that
exist in Georgia can be handled through amendments to the civil code. Of
course, I
am biased with our own system here, but to get nonprofit status under the U.S.
law,
it is the same law that handles whether you are a religious group, a political
group
or a nonprofit group.
Albania is an interesting country to look at that also has taken up this
method or this approach where it is one law that handles many aspects of
handing out
some type of legal status. I would pick up on what Eric mentioned about
registration. It is not per se bad. The question to ask is, does this
registration
regime facilitate religious freedom or limit it? I look at Azerbaijan where
they
have had four, I believe, re-registration campaigns where the number of
registered
communities has decreased each time, from the beginning I believe it was over
2,000
and now it is in the low hundreds.
It would seem that this places religious communities in a precarious
position where if they fall out of favor or if they raise their head too high,
the
government can then crack down on them.
One question I would like to ask to Mr. Carbonneau, I know you spend a lot
of time in Tbilisi. With the arrest of Father Basili, what is the climate like
there now? Do Jehovah's Witnesses feel more comfortable participating in
certain
events? Are there any lingering legal issues that need to be addressed in the
context of Georgia
CARBONNEAU: I was in Tbilisi for five weeks, but I came back two weeks
ago. Definitely, the climate has changed. The very strong action by the
government
against Mkalavishvili and eight of his supporters was seen nationwide. The
group of
religious fanatics that imitate Mkalavishvili are quite limited in number.
Maybe
there are 1,000 throughout the country. That seems to have put a stop on any
further attempt by other religious extremists
While I was there, several conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses were held.
One was in Zigdidi, a site that had been destroyed by 100 policemen, by
organized
government activity. Another convention was held in Marneuli which was attacked
twice, both times by Mkalavishvili, and both times with the assistance of
policemen. There were over 3,000 people in attendance. There was absolutely no
problem, absolutely none whatsoever
I think it comes back to my observation of the Georgian people. They are a
tolerant people if not roused to religious fanaticism. In this case, the
government
seems to have taken the lead in having a measure of law and order being
respected.
As a result, I have been going back and forth for four years, and I can say it
is
the first time I could walk around feeling relatively secure and not in danger.
So
there has been quite a major transformation. Whether or not it will last is
another
thing
With regard to Jehovah's Witnesses, the violence has definitely stopped
completely, absolutely. We do have our cases in the European Court, the first
of
which was declared admissible a couple of weeks ago. So we hope to embed in
law the
basic religious freedoms that should have been respected all along. But
definitely
the situation has improved.
There are problems with, as my colleague mentioned, ownership. There are
problems with owning churches, building churches. These may be administrative
problems and it has to work its way down the chain. But by and large, it is 100
percent better
PRYOR: Thank you.
Further questions? I see one in the front row.
STANDISH: Good afternoon. I am James Standish. I am representing Dr. John
Graz, who is secretary general of the International Religious Liberty
Association.
I want to thank the Helsinki Commission for holding this event, particularly
because
Imam Ilgar is, as I think many of you know, heads our affiliate in Azerbaijan
and I
have a chance to meet him here in Washington, also in Vienna, and just a little
over
a month ago in Kiev at a religious liberty conference. I would like to confirm
what
was said earlier, and that is that he has impressed me with his understanding of
religious liberty and his dedication to that essential principle
I would like to ask the three experts whether you have dealt with the issue
of the use of either state or private media to slander or spread misinformation
about religious groups in the region.
PRYOR: I want to start here at this end
RASSBACH: I have no personal experience in dealing with that. However, it
is something that happens and right now, I should say I have no personal
experience
of challenging it. I may yet be challenging it in the near future because
there is
a bit of a media campaign being orchestrated against our client in Azerbaijan.
It is interesting because there are just these various voices that are
competing and you do not want to trample on someone's free speech. On the other
hand, if the government is essentially controlling and orchestrating something,
then
I think you have a real problem with that kind of organized campaign where the
government is essentially trying to drown out any other expression. But that is
pretty much all I can say about it at this time
CARBONNEAU: My experience is that where they can do, they will do it. They
will use the media to slander, to portray the least beneficial light possible.
Recently in Azerbaijan, some meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses were broken up,
and the
state media was present and portrayed a very negative, negative image
throughout the
country. The same thing was done regularly in Georgia in the past year. So it
is a
powerful tool being used to sway public opinion
CREGO: Yes, I am fairly certain that Father Basil when he and his thugs set
out to do whatever it was they were going to do, would call the television
stations
ahead of time because there always seemed to be video of book burnings and
disruptions of meetings. So I am quite sure that that was part of it. They
thought
that by showing this, that it would get support. I am not sure if that was
necessarily the case.
Also in terms of media, this is actually just the republic of Georgia, the
official state newspaper. There is an article about monasticism in Japaridze,
which
is the primarily Armenian part of Georgia in the south. Though there is nothing
particularly about the Armenians here, the tone of this article was quite
negative
toward non-Orthodox. It starts out by saying, in the past few years in
Georgia, or
on Georgian territory, a multitude of sects have sprouted like mushrooms. It
goes
downhill from there. This was just June 8.
This does not indicate anybody, I don't think, who is a part of the
government, but it is still in the most official newspaper of the country. So
it
goes both ways
PRYOR: Thank you very much
Who else has a question? No further questions
If there are no further questions, then we will conclude the briefing. I
want to thank our speakers today for their insights, for the work they are
doing on
these issues. Thank you very much for your time today
To everybody else who has come, we appreciate your coming also.
Let me just again direct you to our Web site. If you have a broader in the
issues in these countries, it is www.CSCE.gov. It has country-by-country
assessments, as well as overviews on the OSCE commitments in general.
Thank you very much
[Whereupon, the briefing ended at 12:37 p.m.
EN