"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Mary

Must be the same place where you are finding those Orthodox clergy and laity all for union with the Vatican.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 04:21:21 PM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion. If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference. Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion. If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference. Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Can you give us some evidence? What account are you referencing? How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation, I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion. If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference. Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Can you give us some evidence? What account are you referencing? How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation, I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother. The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother. Her bishop excommunicated her publicly. The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control. To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense. And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion. If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference. Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Can you give us some evidence? What account are you referencing? How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation, I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother. The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother. Her bishop excommunicated her publicly. The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control. To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense. And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."

ElijahMaria, I am totally dumbstruck by the deceit of what you are writing in your attempt to claim the high moral ground.

Have you never heard of the well used Roman Catholic principle of "double effect" in such difficult moral questions?

It allows Catholics to procure an abortion when it is the "other" effect of a morally good effect/effort to save the life of the mother. In other words it addresses just the same situations as Fr Harakas is describing - and I am sure that you know that.

Away with this cunning! You disappoint me and I am truly unhappy at the deception you are trying to foist on the forum members.

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother. The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother. Her bishop excommunicated her publicly. The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control. To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense. And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."

You are slipping apple slices into your orange juice. Performing procedures to save the mother's life, in which the baby may die, according to what I have seen from the Vatican and Orthodox ethicists, does not violate either's ethics. killing hte child outright violates both.

As for rape or incest, that's a non-starter.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect.

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect.

The principle of double effect isn't the problem: its when the scholasticism and casuitry worm their way in, and make economia the norm.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Oh, I don't know. What's innocence again? Does it have anything to do with very subtle divisions of concepts? I really can't remember.

Well, nevermind. It's boring to condemn people.

Thinking now... what I do remember is that a Patriarch is a national leader as much as an ecclesiastical figure, so I guess that His Beatitude is doing his best to protect many millions of Christian souls over an indefinite period of time in all possible and even unforeseen circumstances... A tall order even in the most severe reduction. And he has to do it all without creating enemies for his flock, or frightening them, or embittering them. Many are in pain or face great temptations, and knowing that they will have to face angry or jealous pastors for their weakness will not bring the sheep home for care. Phariseeism is mean.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion?

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion. If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference. Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Can you give us some evidence? What account are you referencing? How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation, I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother. The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother. Her bishop excommunicated her publicly. The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control. To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense. And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."

ElijahMaria, I am totally dumbstruck by the deceit of what you are writing in your attempt to claim the high moral ground.

Have you never heard of the well used Roman Catholic principle of "double effect" in such difficult moral questions?

It allows Catholics to procure an abortion when it is the "other" effect of a morally good effect/effort to save the life of the mother. In other words it addresses just the same situations as Fr Harakas is describing - and I am sure that you know that.

Away with this cunning! You disappoint me and I am truly unhappy at the deception you are trying to foist on the forum members.

Do you remember when you and I asked Orthodox priests what they MEAN by the real presence? Do you remember the answers we got? All the words were in place but the meaning was missing? Do you remember that?

Well...cunning or no cunning....I have asked the questions over the years and gotten the answers.

Father Stanley does not mean what the Catholic Church means. No Orthodox priest that I've EVER talked to about the subject thinks that he does, and most will tell you that incest is also the second great exception.

So please do not tell me about my cunning.

Orthodoxy does not teach what the Catholic Church teaches about abortion or contraception....not yet in any event.

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted. Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect.

The principle of double effect isn't the problem: its when the scholasticism and casuitry worm their way in, and make economia the norm.

Precisely!! And this is the first time and probably the last that I will ever agree with you on anything concerning our respective confessions!! But you are right here about Orthodoxy without a shadow of a doubt on my part.

Father Stanely and the Orthodox Church do not teach the arch heretic's jesuitical nonsense that there is a difference between treating the mother, in which case the child MAY die, and KILLING the child so that the mother MIGHT live...where in the latter case the child ALWAYS dies.

Ya'll don't need to split those hairs and engage that useless casuistry worm!!

The only other little worm in this is that in the jesuitical way of treating the mother....sometimes the kid gets to live too!!

I guess I would be very surprised if an Orthodox Priest gave communion to an EC or anyone else for that matter. I have been to two Orthodox Churches that had ECs present and they never received communion. And almost always the priest makes an announcement that only Orthodox Christians that are properly prepared may receive. Perhaps Fr Ambrose or another Orthodox Priest can tell us what their experience is on this matter.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Father Stanley does not mean what the Catholic Church means. No Orthodox priest that I've EVER talked to about the subject thinks that he does, and most will tell you that incest is also the second great exception.

God spare us, but you seem to mix with a group of evil Orthodox priests. It is NOT the Church's teaching that we may kill babies because their fathers are their grandfathers or their uncles. We do NOT kill children to punish their fathers.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

It's disturbing that the Catholic Church spends so much energy opposing the modern Holocaust?

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

I was unaware of the abortion issue.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see. Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see. Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary

LOL. Who are you, that anything needs to be proved? You're the one that is convinced we, the Church, needs your Vatican. Not us.

You might ask the Vatican to do some work on the patristics of that abortion/artificial contraception nexus:Humanae Vitae is devoid of any. Just "magesterium."

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see. Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary

Theory versus praxis, madame.

Mozart was mentioned on another thread. Interesting character. He made cultural productions (viz. music) like no one else of his time, and his music theory was flawless. He was also debauched and generally untrustworthy on a personal basis.

As a fellow once said, it is possible to be more Catholic than the Pope. I hope that you are just that. But to propagandize with this bloody red herring (which does in fact detract from the child rape issue whether it is intended to or not) casts a shadow of doubt on your authenticity. Sorry. It just does.

As primate and overseer, +Kirill is making all the right noises on the issue.

Thanks John for bringing this to bear, but I fully expect this is not news to any of the active Orthodox participants in this thread. I have said nothing about it because I like to watch the elephant in the living room just as much as they do

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see. Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary

Theory versus praxis, madame.

Mozart was mentioned on another thread. Interesting character. He made cultural productions (viz. music) like no one else of his time, and his music theory was flawless. He was also debauched and generally untrustworthy on a personal basis.

As a fellow once said, it is possible to be more Catholic than the Pope. I hope that you are just that. But to propagandize with this bloody red herring (which does in fact detract from the child rape issue whether it is intended to or not) casts a shadow of doubt on your authenticity. Sorry. It just does.

Respectfully,visitor

Note the title of this thread: Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong. There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

All you have done is further prove my point.

I don't know why the Patriarch bothers. He should spend more time on this Forum. Here is where he'd find his answers to the moral crisis. Not with the Vatican!! Bloody red herrings and all. Perhaps he might even be able to forget that Orthodoxy has an issue with sexual abuse at all if he spent more time here.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time.

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more. It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Unfortunately you seem to have chosen for yourself as friends Orthodox priests and even bishops who are perverted and sick of soul.

You say that they teach that there is no reason at all for the schism but there is complete agreement in our doctrines. These anonymous priest friends say the schism continues because of our stubbornness and our preference to keep it going.

These perverted priests also tell you that Orthodox approve of abortion. God alone knows how you reconcile that with the claim that they say our doctrines are identical.

In short, I don't know with whom you are mixing but these things and others you have mentioned prove that your priest friends are not worth the time of day.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

You could start work on your chosen circle of Orthodox priests who are apparently bipolar and

Note the title of this thread: Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong. There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

But you keep insisting that nothing separates us doctrinally and that it is only the sinful pride and stubbornness of the Orthodox which keeps the schism going.

You want to join your Church with a Church with which your own shares no moral parity?! Is that desirable? Is that even rational? Shouldn't you be in the ranks of the anti-unionists to spare your Church from infection with Orthodox immorality?

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Mary,

It is incorrect to say the Orthodox allow abortion. I have never read anything by the Orthodox that states that abortion is anything but sin. Where they differ is in how they react. The Catholic Church proclaims automatic excommunication for the woman who procurs an abortion even though it recognizes there may be external factors which limit her culpability. The Orthodox Church recognizes those same factors and does not automatically excommunicate her. She will, however, undoubtedly be given a strict epitemia, possibly even the ten years St. Basil lays down in his canons. The two positions are a perfect example of akribeia and economia.

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

In Christ,Andrew

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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Mary,

It is incorrect to say the Orthodox allow abortion. I have never read anything by the Orthodox that states that abortion is anything but sin. Where they differ is in how they react. The Catholic Church proclaims automatic excommunication for the woman who procurs an abortion even though it recognizes there may be external factors which limit her culpability. The Orthodox Church recognizes those same factors and does not automatically excommunicate her. She will, however, undoubtedly be given a strict epitemia, possibly even the ten years St. Basil lays down in his canons. The two positions are a perfect example of akribeia and economia.

Fr. Deacon Lance

All right. I'll back away from saying that "Orthodoxy" permits abortion under certain circumstances to say that there are Orthodox clergy and laity who believe that abortion is permitted 1) in an effort to save the mother's life MEANING that a child can be killed to save the mother rather than treating the mother in the hopes that both might live, even if the chances are not good for the child, and I know this because I ask the question to refine the answer, and 2) in cases of rape, particularly incest.

I won't back away from this statement because I have heard it too many times in my lifetime to think it is a chance occurrence. So the best I can surmise is that somebody is dropping the ball...somewhere.

You may not like that but that is my experience and I have heard other Orthodox faithful decry this attitude because they too know it to be fact and real among Orthodox faithful and I have one very good friend who says that Orthodox bishops do not do enough to make the situation clear, and she wishes that they would do so.

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

I see that Fr Trenham forbids all forms of birth control.

Is he permitted by his bishop (Bishop Joseph of the Antiochian Diocese of Los Angeles ) to prohibit his parishioners from using any birth control? Or maybe the bishop has forbidden birth control throughout the diocese? Does anybody know the teaching of the Antiochian bishops?

All right. I'll back away from saying that "Orthodoxy" permits abortion under certain circumstances to say that there are Orthodox clergy and laity who believe that abortion is permitted 1) in an effort to save the mother's life MEANING that a child can be killed to save the mother rather than treating the mother in the hopes that both might live, even if the chances are not good for the child, and I know this because I ask the question to refine the answer, and 2) in cases of rape, particularly incest.

Mary, we are loosing faith in this anomymous band of Orthodox clergy whom you trot out in support of your various opinions of Orthodox teaching.

I could just as well claim that there is no moral parity with Catholicism because there are Catholic clergy and laity I know who totally support polygamy, pre-nuptual sex, consensual incest, and other kinds of non-traditional sexual relationships.

Note the title of this thread: Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong. There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

Yes, you may be right. The Patriarch is wrong. Looking at the immorality which we see pervading large segments of the Catholic world, its laity, its priests and even its bishops, it presents a nauseating picture.

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, ValuesSays Both Churches Can Work Together on Many Issues

Personally, I like this idea of the Orthodox Patriarch where Catholics and Orthodox work together on many issues. It is true that we are two separate Churches, and there are differences, some serious, others not so serious, but why cannot Catholics and Orthodox at least work together as witnesses to the Gospel and our shared faith in Our Divine Savior ?

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."

That sounds about right, at least what you say about Fr. John Schroedel. Seems to match some of the conversations I had with him before he became a priest.

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong. There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

If I didn't know where you were going with that statement, I'd say, "I agree," without any qualifiers. Alas, as it is another high-handed slap at the Orthodox, I'll pass and remind you that for every 1% of the Orthodox population that disregards true Orthodox teaching for their own personally-defined morality, there is at least 1% of the Roman Catholic population that does likewise.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time.

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more. It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

I'm wondering where you're getting your information from. I can speak from personal experience that our theological school in Brookline has been performing psychological evaluations on incoming seminarians for at least 7-8 years, and had been doing it over periods even before that. The Archdiocese has a separate one conducted as part of the pre-Ordination process. You're grasping at straws, and potentially committing a crime (libel) while doing so.

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong. There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

If I didn't know where you were going with that statement, I'd say, "I agree," without any qualifiers. Alas, as it is another high-handed slap at the Orthodox, I'll pass and remind you that for every 1% of the Orthodox population that disregards true Orthodox teaching for their own personally-defined morality, there is at least 1% of the Roman Catholic population that does likewise.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time.

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more. It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

I'm wondering where you're getting your information from. I can speak from personal experience that our theological school in Brookline has been performing psychological evaluations on incoming seminarians for at least 7-8 years, and had been doing it over periods even before that. The Archdiocese has a separate one conducted as part of the pre-Ordination process. You're grasping at straws, and potentially committing a crime (libel) while doing so.

A crime Father? You are accusing me of a crime? Could you be much more specific here and let me know if there are to be formal charges?

I believe I have a right to defend myself and time to prepare do I not?

Are you denying that there are Orthodox bishops and pastors who believe that there are certain circumstances where abortion is justified?

Are you denying that Orthodox jurisdictions believe themselves to be relatively free of sexual predators by comparison to Catholic jurisdictions?

Because so far that is the only potentially criminal things I have said.

And I am not playing tit for tat because I think that what has happened in the Catholic Church is a horrible sin. I also think that there's more work to be done before Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church can claim a mutual moral ground. Now if that is a crime them I will stand before God and country and defend the truth of it.