On that subject, for some reason, I've run into people lately who have challenged me on my claims that this brand of Satanism is the only legitimate one. I argue that's it's the only form of the ideology that was formally codified and organized, but that doesn't seem to satisfy people.

I'd like to know, how can I better support my arguments and supply even some hard data so I can feel confident that it's their stupid pigheadedness and not my lack of clarity that is causing disagreements and sparking arguments?

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

Call it a hunch, Reverend, but if you could or would check some of those shit disturbers' IP addresses, you'd most likely find that it isn't so much that there are lots of them, but that there's a small group of them that are very persistent.

That in itself illustrates the point.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

Maybe some group of xtian fanatics thought that it is their divine quest to recover the lost souls that will end in hell if they spend to much time writting Letters to the Devil.

Since their god Jesus didn't fight to defend himself when he was killed by romans and jews, why do his followers continue to fight here on the internet not to defed but to attack us on this Satanic Domain?

By the way ...their attack sux, since I don't think they managed to convert any of the satanic citizens.

My point is that thay should learn that it is against their bible to wage war agains anybody (even if it is a religious war fought on the internet) and that they have no chance in acomplishing anythnig.

1: LaVey was the first to express the principles he did in an explicitly religious context, and it is these principles specifically that he called "Satanism". A deviation from those principles would need a further rationale for using a word already associated with these principles.

2: LaVey had certain specific reasons for calling his principles "Satanism". Most derivative groups either crib his reasons, or ride on the momentum of an association LaVey made. In other words, either their reasons are LaVey's reasons, or else their reason is implicitly "because LaVey did it". Or, as a third option, they believe in Satan as a real entity. I have never seen an original contribution in this respect.

But really, who are you trying to satisfy, and why?

ps. I don't really see it as an issue of "legitimacy". LaVey's Satanism is the only credible flavor for me, and the Church of Satan is the only organization to have distinguished itself to any degree.

Those churches will allways stay in business, as there will allways be stupid sheeps attending to their herd.

As I noticed, most of them are the same as xtians ...they just need a god to worship and ...because "the Allmighty Satan" allows them to do things that other religions don't, they just become satanists. But after a while they realize what bad folks they were and they turn to the "good and virtuous xtian god" to ask for forgivness.

But who built those churches?I notticed that most of their leaders were in some sort of contact with the CoS but because they failed in getting themselves accepted here they preffered to transform their garden shed into a church so they can meet there to worship the big, red, horny guy they call Satan. How can they still clame they follow LaVey?

As for me ...I'd better get buy myself a red suit and a set of horns so they could also pray to me and bring me their offerings ...and maybe I will forgive their sins.

I belive that their websites are too much for what they really are ...like the claims that they have powers and they hold assemblies ...actualy they assemble 2 persons with enough power to turn on the light by pressing the swich.

On the contrary they do not disturb me personally at all. I just delete them while drinking my morning coffee.

Really though the Internet has just provided them with a larger soapbox. Shitdisturbers have been here all along except now they just have a bigger mouth and are easier to find. They serve a useful purpose. Those who cannot show the good judgement, intelligence and research skills to see through these morons are certainly not the kind of people the Church of Satan wants anyway. Pseudo Satanic faux internet organizations serve as an idiot filter of sorts. These people are all welcome to go and join an Internet whine fest about how mean the COS is. They can take on names like Imperial Shithead of the Order of the more Enlightened Wise Satanists if they wish. In the end all they are in the real world is a chatroom of malcontent Grimer Wormtongue wannabee's. They will be dealt with as we have ALWAYS been dealing with them for over 35 years now. Just more "Pretenders to the Throne" who you really can't take seriously because of the silly ways they find to present themselves.
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Pretenders.htmlHS!

_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."R. Lang XLVI A.S.

Mostly, I want to ensure that I can express myself fully and eloquently on the matter, and see if I'm already doing so. No doubt there will always be people who will still be upset even if I am eloquent and precise, but in that case, the ball will be in their court, not mine. I want to check in to see that the ball isn't in my court, because I want to be effective at laying out concepts.

Is there historical proof to back up my argument that no other formally codified, organized, and self-proclaimed/described Satanic groups or dogmas existed before LaVey?

Is there a pithy and effective way in which to shut down arguments in favor of Sean Sellers and Richard Ramirez being Satanists? I generally assert that they (in short form) a) were trying to hijack a term that had already been taken by LaVey b) lacked a formal and organized ideology and c) were insane, so they should not be considered real Satanists. Is there more meat I could add to this?

What example(s) do you use to truly explain or visualize why the name "Satanism" truly fits? I have numerous ones, but I'd like to hear some fresh views on this that aren't just from me.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

The antagonisms they offer causes a reaction amongst Satanists. That being one of careful consideration of who is before you. If a person shows satanic qualities, the microscope comes out, and the watermark is checked for authenticity before the buck passes as being suitable.( if one chooses to use said buck)

I am not giving a hearty O.K. to the machinations of those that "ride the boat while pokin' holes in it" shit-disturbers use, but just as stated many times before, there has to be a balance factor, and less than desireable traits are terra-firma to the support of satanic ideals/manifestations.

My uncomfortable third side states that "they" are low and not of much value, but they force the hand at the considerations of real "accomplishment by Satanists" by their negative nature towards Satanism. All lofty feet crunch gravel beneath, but that does not justify anything more than being assured of stature above the grinding and scraping of the path below.

On a personal level, one should easily pick up the crunch of gravel underfoot, and go on their merry path...focused and smiling a cruel smile.

(just ate dinner and restocked the analogy arsenal)

Another service they provide is population control. Consider "them" as Hyenas and Satanists as Lions. They catch the unwary, the infirm, and the foolish young that were of the Satanic pride, and they devour them. That unflinching fact is natural, and keeps the pride healthy. Toss out any human based emotion, and all that is left is nature taking its' course.

Now of course a person can stumble and fall upon the gravel, or find themselves in a closing circle of Hyenas, but the Satanist will regain balance or claw an escape through the murderous pack...all that is required is a solid understanding of the surroundings, and the wits to walk freely without blinders. Total ignorance of them does not lessen the threat, understanding of them enables the threats to be overcome as they pop up.
(I promise I am done this time)

Quote:Is there historical proof to back up my argument that no other formally codified, organized, and self-proclaimed/described Satanic groups or dogmas existed before LaVey?

You can't prove a negative, especially when it comes to conspiracies. Who knows what secret group somebody will say their grandma had going in the basement? But the fact is, there is no historical proof to suggest there was anyone doing it before LaVey. (He himself remarked, if there had been such a thing as an organized group calling themselves "Satanists" before 1966, he'd've found 'em.) The burden of proof is on the one who would posit that there was.

Quote:Is there a pithy and effective way in which to shut down arguments in favor of Sean Sellers and Richard Ramirez being Satanists? I generally assert that they (in short form) a) were trying to hijack a term that had already been taken by LaVey b) lacked a formal and organized ideology and c) were insane, so they should not be considered real Satanists. Is there more meat I could add to this?

Those guys were as reflective of Satanism as Jim Jones was reflective of Christianity.

Quote:What example(s) do you use to truly explain or visualize why the name "Satanism" truly fits? I have numerous ones, but I'd like to hear some fresh views on this that aren't just from me.

The way I have always put it to myself is that it's a joke in poor taste, at the expense of those whose religion is a pretense and excuse for the intense degree to which they take themselves seriously.

You are right ...messages are not so disturbing if they can be deleted so easy by the moderator.

There is still one thing that's a little bit more disturbing than their messages. I saw that many of these "pretenders to the throne" have ended in building their own throne ...and now they have the nerve to claim legitimacy over Satanism and over Anton LaVey's teachings. This poor idiots have built "churches" ...I met some of these groups before I found the CoS with doctrines like "Let's worship Lucifer the Big Bad Devil" or "Let's bring Satan my grandmother's black cat as a sacrifice".

Here, in Romania, one of these mad pseudo-satanists that was a soldier in some military unit picked up his gun a killed a couple of his comrades ...after that he comited suicide. Everybody pointed the finger at satanism ...and now, if you try to say that you're a satanist then you're for sure a crazy criminal.In a small country these thing don't actualy go unnotticed.

For non-satanists is very hard to make a difference between the pretender and the person that's actually sitting on the throne.

As for devil worshipers, especialy for them, I uploaded my new avatar, so now they can see that I'm the big red guy with hornes and a tail. Maybe they'll bow to me ...maybe I'll get some offerings too ...or maybe not?

Unfortunately, nothing anyone does is going to make the shitdisturbers stop their act until that mythical day three hundred years from now when all of society is familiar with and tolerant of real Satanism. Better to spend your fifteen minutes making a sandwich than arguing with one of those little trolls; at least that accomplishes something.

I might as well share some of a dialogue that I recently had with one of these imbeciles. As a show of respect for Rev. Ventrue and good taste in general, I won't add a plug for his website, but it became clear to me early on that he has NO idea what he's talking about:

Quote:

my main purpose of my orginization is to bring all of the left hand paths together. the left hand path has seperated into so many off roads that it has seperated people based on belief. for instance you have the temple ofset which practices egyptian satanism. then you have the crowleyites. and then the list goes one. michael aquino was one of the doctors best pupils who worked so hard to get the title he has now. lavey on the other hand sold titles to those that were undeserving. i am sorry if i skip around. i am just typing things as they come into mind. even some of laveys past has been questioned due to his daughter, zeena. i just prefer not to associate my self with an orginization that is corrupt. when i became a satanist i started with the satanic bible, due to availability. no i have read all of laveys work and also branched out to the older black magics (la bas, book of black magic, satanism and witchcraft, etc.) and i have paved my own way to the beginning of the left hand path to see the roots. most of laveys work was stolen in my opinion from sources like the books mentioned above, might is right, operas, and so on. without the satanic bible there would not be an above ground satansim, and i thank him for that. but his orginization is not for me. i would type more but i have bronchitis and dont feel good.

infernally, rev. m. s.

My response:

Quote: 1. The fact that you believe everything LaVey's detractors have posted on the internet betrays how gullibleyou are. Did you know LaVey in his personal life? Were you ever invited to the Black House? Have youviewed anything off of the internet (which we both know is an absolute bastion of truth! *rolls eyes*) thatverifies the accusations of his neurotic daughter and Dr. Aquino? I haven't. Furthermore, even if all the rumors about LaVey's personal life and the details of his past were true, whatdoes that have to do with the CoS or Satanism in general? Have you ever heard logical fallacies such asargumentum ad hominem?

2. There is nothing Satanic about the Temple of Set. They do not practice "Egyptian Satanism." Ask themyourself, and they will inform you that they do not consider themselves Satanists, and are trying to distancethemselves from the name. There is only Satanism as defined by Dr. LaVey. And people who follow Crowley's teachings are called Thelemites. "Crowleyite" is not a word. Do yourhomework.

3. You will not be "bringing all of the left hand paths together." Unitarianism for any religion is a ridiculouspipe dream. There will always be splinter groups, factions, and denominations. Get used to it and pull yourhead out of the clouds.

4. Yes, LaVey did plagiarize portions of Might is Right and used John Dee's Enochian Keys in his book.However both titles were already in the public domain when he did so, therefore he did not infringe onanyone's copyright. Did you know that in the first publication of TSB, he dedicated it to RagnarRedbeard? Everyone adapts ideas from other sources. LaVey took different aspects of social Darwinism, Ayn Rand,Nietzsche, and the occult and blended them into his own invention. This does not make him a con man ora liar. LaVey was more original in his ideas than any occult writer I have ever perused.

5. The CoS is not "corrupt." They give titles based on one's real world accomplishments, rather than ritualhocus-pocus. A successful musician has accomplished a lot more than a 10th Degree Adept Mage of theThird Mystical Order of Belial (or some such nonsense).

In my opinion, you are an attention-starved dimwit who is trying to make a name for himself by capitalizingon the ideas of people far more original and talented than you could ever hope to be. You want to formyour own occult group to give yourself a feeling of power that you lack in any other area of your life.Eventually you will abandon your moronic pipe dream and find some other equally-stupid venture to tryand inflate your small ego.

Continue this conversation if you want, but understand that this is my opinion of you and it is unlikely tochange. Good night.

His pathetic rebuttal:

Quote: answers to number 1. if his life was a lie like it has been said to be then the Church of Satan itself was built on a lie. and i dont bother reading all of the he says she says bullshit between the cos and everyone else. all of my opinions have come from my own mind from my own readings.number 3. it is not a pipe dream. it is all a matter of studies. looking for common links and putting pieces together. it is possible.number 4, thats still a thief in my book.number 5. i dont see your logic behind this. a person may have exactly no standpoint in real life and be just an average joe and still accompolish more 'magicly' then one that is a senator. giving a title due to your ranking in life is bullshit. for one fact that senator could be an alcoholic who beats his wife, but in the cos he is a magistre, but our avaerage joe on the other hand who is well educated and smart is just a mage in the cos. fuck that.and as for your opinion..... i am not some little dimwit who is looking for power. i am a well educated individual who is trying to form an orginization that has no titles, has no definate belief(which would not disclude any due to belief). you may see it as a pipe dream. also due to not updating the website.... we have 2 active grotos. one in florida, and one in west lafeyette. we are soon branching an egyptian chapter in wisconsin. i will make a prediction here, in say 20 years my orginization will be well known in the satanic community.have a good day.

My email to him (at this point I was giggling while typing it):

Quote:

1. The CoS was built on LaVey's principles, not what he did in his life. His principles are not a lie. If youthink the CoS is a LaVey fan club, you are about as perceptive as a brick.

3. You can find links between different schools of thought as much as you want. That doesn't mean youwill unify anything. Question: if someone showed the Catholics and Protestants that they all essentially believe the same thing,does that mean they will put aside their differences and join to form one church? Unitarianism goescompletely against human nature. So give up on that proposition because it ain't gonna happen, cowboy.

4. If that's still a thief, then Crowley was a thief as well. And for that matter, so are you.

5. It takes more intelligence and Satanic qualities to be successful in life than it does to achieve a magicaldegree. That is why real world accomplishments are applauded by the CoS rather than silly titles. As foryour example about domestic violence and alcoholism, those are both grounds for immediate expulsionfrom the CoS. They don't turn a blind eye on anyone's criminal record.

So you want to make predictions about your group? OK, I'll make a more realistic one. In 20 years yourgroup will have long since fallen apart due to lack of funds, bickering between members, lack of effort, anddisorganization. Have fun while it lasts.

And finally, folks, the whiny, immature, resigned conclusion:

Quote:i am trying to figure out why you are so against my beliefs. apparently whatever i say is completely wrong. at first your conversation was entertaining, now i am just bored with you. good bye.

Oh, and that "well-educated individual" remark...he had an About Me! page on Ebay (which he has since taken down, once I started emailing him) in which he described how he ran away from home at ten, was sent to reform school for starting fires, and at age twenty three has only now started to clean his life up. High priest, my left buttock.

_________________________Some boys grow up into men who can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, and others just go along with the crowd, forgetting after a while that they ever had a choice. ---Roger Ebert