All in all, I like ITCOTCK, Red/Starless and then some parts of Lark's Tongues in Aspic. All in all, the rest of KC, is rather forget'able to me, and not interesting, though I can listen to it and enjoy it ... but it is not the "grand spectacle" that some of us prefer, instead of another rock song!

are you actually saying that things like Lizard and Islands sound like "another rock song" to you instead of a "grand spectacle"? I'm curious to know what kind of typical rock songs you listen to and what standards you have for something to be a "grand spectacle"

I was brought up on classical music, first, and then heard popular music ... because it was there.

By comparison, most popular music lacks the vibrancy and the strength of most Opera work, for example, where many of the librettos have been cleaned up. Most rock bands, do NOT fix the lyrics so the music brings the lyrics to you, because you have a singer that does it alone, and the music is superfluous and not important, and sometimes just a background ... sort of like elevator music to my ears.

It doesn't matter if it is "progressive" or "prog" or anything else ... it is really the same in all other disciplines.

But, there is a "technical" side of music NOW, that was not there until 50 to 75 years ago. Then, the "technical side" was all about how well you played your instrtument and made it shine ... today, this "technical side" is totally buried and almost non-existant, and if you ask anyone why they like this or that ... they can not tell you anything, except that ... they like it! ... You do realize how "un-progressive" that really is, right?

I do NOT listen to "songs". And you will rarely see me discussing ... "songs"! Songs, maybe the word du jour, and eventually become the same as "Poem" was 75 years ago, or 2000 years ago, however, in the end, there is a massive difference in definition between song and poem ... that you are ignoring ... I treat ALL music as poetry ... poetry for my ears!

And unffortunately, there are pretenders and then there are do'ers ... and it's not hard to tell ... you just have to close your eyes, and you see an ego blow out his gore ... or you can hear someone crying and singing, and the violin in the background is the tear going down his/her face .... the subtlety that can not be replaced with lyrics ...

And as I state below ... you have to "see it" to "know it" ... because until then, it is just an idea!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... you will, eventually, find your own art inside! Try it! www.pedrosena.com

Unffortunately, too many folks that are posting here and the children of the top ten generation and it is almost all they know ... and many of them can not make a call on their likes, unless someone else is into it!

And sadder, still ... many of them do not have a historical understanding, or desire ... to see the difference.

In that sense, I find the question itself, really sad ... are we going to sit here and say The Beatles are overrated? And then The Rolling Stones? And then Dream Theater? And then ProgArchives? And then Mosh? And then Dean? And then Snow Dog? .... and somewhere along the way, it becomes just plain old ... something else ... that is not cool or necessary.

Next, we're going to start a thread that asks if Shakespeare is Overrated! How about Van Der Graff Generator being Overrated? How about Babboons from China, being overrated? ....

It's not about the "person" and their work anymore ... it's about one person's view that some other folks work is considered better and has a lot more respect from many folks, than his favorite band ... sorry! discussion over!

... none of the hits, none of the time ... you will, eventually, find your own art inside! Try it! www.pedrosena.com

Unffortunately, too many folks that are posting here and the children of the top ten generation and it is almost all they know ... and many of them can not make a call on their likes, unless someone else is into it!

And sadder, still ... many of them do not have a historical understanding, or desire ... to see the difference.

In that sense, I find the question itself, really sad ... are we going to sit here and say The Beatles are overrated? And then The Rolling Stones? And then Dream Theater? And then ProgArchives? And then Mosh? And then Dean? And then Snow Dog? .... and somewhere along the way, it becomes just plain old ... something else ... that is not cool or necessary.

Next, we're going to start a thread that asks if Shakespeare is Overrated! How about Van Der Graff Generator being Overrated? How about Babboons from China, being overrated? ....

It's not about the "person" and their work anymore ... it's about one person's view that some other folks work is considered better and has a lot more respect from many folks, than his favorite band ... sorry! discussion over!

My motto is "question everything" even if it's been embedded into people's brains that certain things can't be considered overrated. I think that's sad. I personally think that The Rolling Stones are overrated but that's me. You don't have to follow or believe what everyone tells you to

Read his post carefully. In the middle of all his rambling, he has nailed exactly why overrated is a much abused word.

moshkito wrote:

It's not about the "person" and their work anymore ... it's about one person's view that some other folks work is considered better and has a lot more respect from many folks, than his favorite band ... sorry! discussion over!

Amen. It is hardly ever about the influence or importance of an artist's work to the music....it's simply, "Too many annoying people like this band, so I find the band annoying."

In addition, Fripp's influence on modern music is far beyond the progressive circle.

This question is a nonsense for me.

Indeed, in fact I would say he is arguably underated. I suspect many young folk listen to music that he has greatly influenced without even knowing who he was. I suspect this may have also been the case in the later half of the 70's. His name pops up all over the place; in relation to all manner of artists including Daryl Hall, David Bowie, The Orb, Future Sound of London..That pr!ck Kanye West even sampled KC.

Kanye also sampled Can, another band with a huge influence that isn't that recognized.

Everywhere else on the internet? He's doesn't even register. I've yet to see a "Greatest Guitar Player Ever" poll even mention him. The Living Conscious Stupidity that is the internet would rather gush over hacks like Buckethead than a real guitarist like Robert Fripp, Jimi Hendrix, David Gilmour, Jimmy Page, or Dave Murray.

Kanye also sampled Can, another band with a huge influence that isn't that recognized.

oh god really? i already died a little when i heard his horrendous sampling of 21st Century Schizoid man, but now you say he has sampled Can too? I don't even want to hear what the hell that would sound like.

on a related note, here's a hip-hop tune sampling KC that I can really dig

My Dreaming Hill wrote:

Everywhere else on the internet? He's doesn't
even register. I've yet to see a "Greatest Guitar Player Ever" poll even
mention him. The Living Conscious Stupidity that is the internet would
rather gush over hacks like Buckethead than a real guitarist like Robert
Fripp, Jimi Hendrix, David Gilmour, Jimmy Page, or Dave Murray.

I could be exaggerating through elitist rage, though.

I think you are exaggerating. I have yet to see a "greatest guitarist" list on the internet that does not have Henrdix, Gilmour and Page somewhere near the top. I mean most guitarist lists anywhere tend to have Hendrix somewhere within the top 3

Kanye also sampled Can, another band with a huge influence that isn't that recognized.

...

He listens to a lot more stuff than he lets on, and I am not sure that he is just playing the fame card right now, and later might start to bring out some serious music, instead of just some sampled stuff here and there and somewhere else.

But it is easy to sample minute bits, though I seriously doubt that a person could find a small bit here and there in the middle of a CAN thing, or KC thing, in order to be able to use it in the way that he does ... and it becomes just like other places, where the musical tastes are strictly about the fame and the fortune, not the music ... if you tell a Kanye fan about those "samples" they are going to say ... so? ... and ignore you, because it means you are questioning Kanye's knowledge and abilities!

Heck ... we do the same thing here!

Edited by moshkito - January 13 2013 at 13:07

... none of the hits, none of the time ... you will, eventually, find your own art inside! Try it! www.pedrosena.com

Kanye also sampled Can, another band with a huge influence that isn't that recognized.

...

He listens to a lot more stuff than he lets on, and I am not sure that he is just playing the fame card right now, and later might start to bring out some serious music, instead of just some sampled stuff here and there and somewhere else.

As far as whether he hasn't brought out his "serious music" yet and is just "playing the fame card right now":

No way, Kanye's production work is brilliant, second to none. And it's clearly his own; it sounds like no one else. If anyone can do it, go ahead and try. I mean, do it in a way that A) is totally original, B) a great many people respond to enthusiastically, and C) is lauded by nearly every important music critic and zine the world over.

There's a reson why sample-heavy albums such as ENDTRODUCING..., THREE FEET HIGH AND RISING, PAUL'S BOUTIQUE, THE LOW END THEORY, and at least 2 Kanye West albums are absolute classics - because sampling is an art, and to do it brilliantly isn't easy.

I will say that I am a huge hip-hop fan and I absolutely loathe Kanye. HIs music ranges from truly terrible to painfully mediocre. His production is nowhere near "brilliant". It's all very safe and predictable mainstream sh*t. I am personally in the Madlib school of thought when it comes to hip-hop production and I don't think Kanye is even a slight fraction of the producer and musician that Madlib is.

sorry if this comes off too strong or arrogant but I seriously hate Kanye so much. The most overrated and overhyped person in hip-hop.

I also question the credibility of that article.. They put Dr. Dre before Madlib, J Dilla and Pete Rock... Yes, Dr. Dre above legends like Pete Rock and J Dilla. Dr. Dre, the guy who makes the same beat every time and has 4-5 people "coproduce" it with him. actually the more I look at this list the more I'm amazed by how many truly terrible producers are on there and how high up they are

I will say that I am a huge hip-hop fan and I absolutely loathe Kanye. HIs music ranges from truly terrible to painfully mediocre. His production is nowhere near "brilliant". It's all very safe and predictable mainstream sh*t. I am personally in the Madlib school of thought when it comes to hip-hop production and I don't think Kanye is even a slight fraction of the producer and musician that Madlib is.

sorry if this comes off too strong or arrogant but I seriously hate Kanye so much. The most overrated and overhyped person in hip-hop.

I also question the credibility of that article.. They put Dr. Dre before Madlib, J Dilla and Pete Rock... Yes, Dr. Dre above legends like Pete Rock and J Dilla. Dr. Dre, the guy who makes the same beat every time and has 4-5 people "coproduce" it with him. actually the more I look at this list the more I'm amazed by how many truly terrible producers are on there and how high up they are

Mainstream has never automatically meant bad, and underground doesn't always mean great. The Beatles were mainstream, the Stones were mainstream, Stevie Wonder was mainstream. The thing about those who have such a strong dislike and even hatred for Kanye: they tend to be white. I know country music fans and Republicans hate him. (That is reason enough for me to love Kanye!) The truth is, I know next to nothing about his life - I'm not into celebrity gossip, I could care less. The music is the thing. By the way, I like Madvillian alot too; er, I mean Madlib. I can like both.

i was not implying he is bad simply because he is mainstream, i think he is bad because of his music. he is a pretty sh*tty person but i agree with you that the music is the thing. The thing is though, his music is painfully mediocre to me and sums up everything I think is bad with mainstream hip-hop. uninspired production, lackluster rapping, terrible lyrics...

I will say though I am by no means trying to force (persuade?) you to not like him and i really don't mind if you do. it was the "Kanye's production work is brilliant, second to none" comment that really spurred my response because i disagree so strongly. The best Kanye production I've heard was still nothing compared to the production of those I consider the greats.

I will say that I am a huge hip-hop fan and I absolutely loathe Kanye. HIs music ranges from truly terrible to painfully mediocre. His production is nowhere near "brilliant". It's all very safe and predictable mainstream sh*t. I am personally in the Madlib school of thought when it comes to hip-hop production and I don't think Kanye is even a slight fraction of the producer and musician that Madlib is.

sorry if this comes off too strong or arrogant but I seriously hate Kanye so much. The most overrated and overhyped person in hip-hop.

I also question the credibility of that article.. They put Dr. Dre before Madlib, J Dilla and Pete Rock... Yes, Dr. Dre above legends like Pete Rock and J Dilla. Dr. Dre, the guy who makes the same beat every time and has 4-5 people "coproduce" it with him. actually the more I look at this list the more I'm amazed by how many truly terrible producers are on there and how high up they are

But I appreciate that they are well respected here- just not my thing.

I agree 100% with everything you say except VDGG.

I'm with Hercules on this one KK and VDGG - far too an acquired taste that I have tried to acquire but with so much more accessible music open to me I'm not really wanting to try and make myself like it purely because they are considered pioneers of prog...
RF is obviously gifted as a guitarist - but he just isn't for me and Hackett/Stolt/Howe/Petrucci/Latimer/Akerfeldt are all supremely more gifted and appealing to me!

But I appreciate that they are well respected here- just not my thing.

I agree 100% with everything you say except VDGG.

I'm with Hercules on this one KK and VDGG - far too an acquired taste that I have tried to acquire but with so much more accessible music open to me I'm not really wanting to try and make myself like it purely because they are considered pioneers of prog...
RF is obviously gifted as a guitarist - but he just isn't for me and Hackett/Stolt/Howe/Petrucci/Latimer/Akerfeldt are all supremely more gifted and appealing to me!

Fripp is a brilliant technical player with immpecable timing, compare his split second interplay with Adrian Below in Level 5. If people think Fripp is overrated it's usually because thay don't care for his music.

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