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Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Originally Posted by josephus1

Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over and laying eggs in 5 to six days. While it would be wrong to guarantee 100 percent it sure works so well. I would say that something would have to make an exception that it did not work. This set up will allow you to get the queen and all bees over with just a few stages of trapping. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.

What is the premis of this ultra nuc box
why would it work. Better than a hogan style trap

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Harley Craig.... Hopefully he will explain the premise for his trap. I looked at it, and, I must admit, I don't understand it.

If you can reasonably expect 100% guarantee to get the queen, then, that is a big jump forward for beekeeping and trap outs. I mean, this is big news.

I have been working on trapouts for over 25 years, and I cannot expect 100% to get the queen. Not even close. Trees with few entrances to seal would have a probability of perhaps 70% - 80%. In buildings the probability goes down to perhaps 40% to 50%, and those probabilities are based on lots of factors like the queen looking for any cells to lay in, good honey flow, lots of bees, feral source crowded.

In fact, in the method that I developed, and have shared with hundreds of beekeepers, was not developed to get the queen, but rather was developed to take starts, with the right mix of bees, from a good source, and use that source year after year. In early Spring I have taken a queen, but, normally I return her to the tree and take the bees. I accidentially lucked up on the process while doing a screen cone funnel trapout. What I was looking for was a way to get the right mix of bees for a good start, (similar to a swarm) which you don't normally get with a screen cone funnel method unless you wait until the very end.

I still use the screen cone funnel method occasionally, and did quite often when I just wanted to trap the bees and eliminate the colony. I never did a tremendous number of eliminations because it takes time and trips. I left my traps set up year after year and just took two or three starts to increase hive count.

I hope this new method will live up to the stated results you can expect. This would be a giant leap for beekeeping, and I am always looking for new ideas and procedures. In reading posts about the Hogan Trapout Method, lots of people have already improved on the method. Especially in mating the trap to the feral colony. Lets hope this new trap will be a leap forward. I certainly do.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

I checked my trap that I have on the tree and I got approximately 3 more pounds of bees again tonight, but still no queen, maybe tomorrow!

Wrong picture. This picture is of a trap I just installed on a house. I sure am having problems getting the correct pictures on here. Guess that is what happens when an old man tries to learn new tricks.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

I would love to leave some bees in the tree, but it's in someone's backyard and they have kids so they want the bees gone. The trap on the house is the same thing, (of course) they want all the bees gone also. What ever bees I can't trap will be exterminated. That is why in both cases I am desperately trying to get the queens.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Bill.. lI would say, this time of year, about 60% chance on the tree, Very, very, low on the house. The Spring buildup is just about over and in two more weeks the queens will really begin to slow down. Then, with lots of room in the feral brood nest, the bees will begin to use the trap as a place to store surplus honey. Still a good way to take a start or two, but chances of getting the queens really diminishes.

I started another one today, same as you, they want them gone. We will see what happens. Hope to get enough for 2 more colonies.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

I started a trapout on a house 3 weeks ago. The owner just noticed them this Spring, but judging by the activity (pollen, orientation, lots of bees), it was fairly well established. I created a new entrance and sealed off the old ones. After a couple days they were using the new entrance so I screwed an 8 frame box with a few drawn combs in it to the wall over my new entrance. A couple more days and they were using the entrance normally with a hundred or so bees hanging out on the comb in the box.
At this point, I added a frame of brood and a wire cone inside the box over the house entrance. Massive confusion. Bees searching for and finding new entrances into the house. Only enough bees in the box to cover the brood. It took a few more days to find and seal the new entrances.
Now, a couple of days later, they've apparently absconded. All activity in and out has ceased and there are even fewer bees on the brood.
Did all my efforts bum them out to the point where they just left?

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Hi. I am sure of the method because I have had the success with it. The slider bar allows you to set the trap from the outside without going into the box if you do not want too. It allows for just taking field bees, Just taking house keepers, Taking both and leaving it from there. Or a few maneuvers with get all the bees even the queen. Step one is engaging the slider to have all access in and out of the tree of all bees coming and going. First by bringing in a brood frame with eggs. Checking in a few hours to see the house keepers over (And Possible queen, but unlikely this soon). If the queen is over that soon (Unlikely) then you can slide the bar to put the queen excluder on the hole. This will make sure the queen will not get back in the tree If the box is too full you will need to take some out on the frame you brought leaving the queen to stay. You will need to replace the brood frame with another. You will also note the date and wait 22 days to insure all eggs and larvae has hatched in the tree. Then you can slide the bar all the way in and close all contact to the tree leaving a route for any field bees to still come out the screen tunnel , but can only return to the box.
What forces the bees over is that when you get your first house keepers over, Check for queen, but not likely so quick that she will be there, you then slide bar all the way in causing the bees in the box not to be able to go back and forth, Only the field bees will leave out but can only come back in the box in one day you will have more than you need if you just want a starter amount. They are loaded with their honey, pollen etc. and will have to build and pack inside of your box. Three days latter you will have a queen cell and worked cone from the tree bees. Since you will be having to removes bees every so often anyway because of the migrations as this continues, then I take the bees on the brood frame out and replace it with a new brood frame. This time I want all stages of brood and specifically those capped and ready to hatch that day or two away. I still want eggs as well. I leave the tree open for all the bees to re adjust for what they have gone through. Some will go back into the tree, but now there is work already out there "done by them". The queen likes to lay eggs in "fresh cleaned" cells. That is why the capped bees are needed to be there and hatching out. This could be happening within 4 days all together, and this is when she is to come over. Wait about two days and if she is not over close off the tree again and it will get worked again just like the first time. When all the field bees can not take their supply back into the tree they will again treat this as their new hive, will again attempt a queen cell etc. Wait three days(This cause the bees in the tree to suffer some) and you will have an over crowded box, Open it up to the tree again, there will be much more work now done in your box. This is where the queen is likely to come over and even have an extended stay laying eggs. I have not had to go the second round on this so far, she has laid eggs on the first cycle. I hope I explained this good enough. In fact I may add this explanation on ebay auction. Thanks Joseph Rorie.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

josephus1.. Thanks for the info. Sounds promising, and I understand parts of it, but, honestly, not all yet. My questions would be:

Have you attempted to lure the queen over where the entrance to a building/tank is at one point, and the brood nest is several feet away from where the entrance/exit is. ( and for whatever reason you cannot make another entrance, or just don't know where the brood nest is). My experience, which uses uncapped brood to lure the queen, same as yours, is that, she will not travel that far. In this case the bees often start queen cells in the trap from the brood you gave them, or, they use the trap as a storage chamber for excess honey.

I also believe the available room in the brood nest, in the feral colony, will play a major role in whether the queen will come into the trap. If she has ample or surplus cells available in the feral brood nest, the only reason she has for coming into the trap is the smell of foreign eggs. Late in the season she is not looking for more cells, and may be content to stay in the tree, house, tank, etc. My experience indicates that a late season trap out is not as successful in getting the queen to come over as early season/major buildup for honey flow, trapots are.

My experience has also indicated that if the queen does not come over, the bees in the trap may start to build queen cells in the trap from the unsealed brood you gave them. This is due to eggs/capped brood being in the trap, but, no queen is present.

I have also experienced the nursebees coming over to tend the frame of brood you gave them, then returning to the feral source and abandoning the trap. This necessitated the use of the funnel to prevent them from returning to the tree, house, etc. I attributed this to the bees having adequate room in the feral chamber and not needing/wanting to establish another chamber.

I especially like the part about the queen excluder keeping the queen in the trap without having to open the trap, or, her coming through the funnel. Someone contacted Kelly Bee Company about a year or so ago and had devised a way to slide the queen excluder into the tunnel without having to open the trap. I looked at it and said yes, it would certainly work. I don't know what they have done or are going to do about it.

As I have said before, I did not develop the procedure I have used for years to get the queen, but rather to take starts and leave the feral colony healthy, year after year. Years ago, farmers would let me trap a couple of starts, but, did not want the bees killed. So i took a couple of starts, gave the farmer a little honey, we both had bees, and everyone was happy.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

I have not tried it with bees that may be very far from the entrance, however I think it would work still but with much more closing off and opening up. Three days without their field bees (water they pack in when needed) one day open for all then back to three days. Depending on the location, if in a very hot place, then three days once, but two days next. The whole hive begins to like it better on the "nicer" side. The queen can also notice that every thing is going well over there, and I suppose some of her eggs are not so fed after the close off. I notice that she comes over and lays like crazy as if to make up. I can see where she "might not" come over after the first closeout, but I have not had that problem. I would believe that if she did not, then repeating this will do it, and should do it in just a few times. Even is she gets stubborn her whole hive is gradually working more over in the box and another close out she will not want to go through. I also use a full size box with the set up when I am sure it is a very large hive of bees in the tree. I start with putting a spacer wall that closes most of the hive box off and they only have 4 to five frames to work with, but each time I force them over and see them over crowed I can give them more of the box, then start a super. But that time you should have already trapped the queen over and having the exculder in place.
I can also see that they will try to just make it a honey box but with you forcing the field bees to stay over with their pollen also, then that will not happen as long as you keep shutting off the hive making them feel there need to thrive on their own, but the opening time has served me well with the queen acting like she is glad to get out of that side. I do believe that having almost hatching eggs has a lot to do with it since she knows the cycle so well and a fresh clean cell is her target. I see what you mean as far as how much space is in the tree or building, but shutting it off frequently causes it to become uncomfortable as the very least, and I am sure the bees feels the panic during that time.
I also suspect that the 90 degree turn and the circulation trouble from that makes it a lot harder in the tree, and the easy work and comfort in the box right at the entrance/breeze makes some of this work also. After all the fanners must work double time to draw back into the tree. When every thing is going well up front then I see it playing a part in it as well. Joseph Rorie

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Joseph... That sounds good. You may have just made a giant leap forward in beekeeping, in getting queens from trees, buildings, etc. Only time will tell.

Congradulations, Let's see how it works out, as more people use it.

Obviously you are wanting to make and sell this trap, but, I believe if I were you, I would approach some large bee manufacturing company and sell them the idea, or license them to sell on a royalty basis. Quickly, before the idea is widely used. E-bay is great, but a large bee company will sell a lot more faster, and i'm sure you know others will copy your design for themselves.

I had used my design for years, shared it with many others and I did not want to get into the selling business with the Swarm Harvester that Kelly Bee Company sells, Kelly did, so I gave them the concept and design and I have never accepted anything from them or the hundreds of people that I have helped use the trap. I just enjoy helping beekeepers. I wasn't looking to make money on the idea or the trap itself.

My best wishes to you, and your trap. Looks like you have make a great improvement on what is currently available.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Cleo, so far I have gotten about 7 pounds of bees out of the tree I am trapping. Two times I got about 3 pounds each. This morning after 36 hours I only got about a pound. I'm thinking we may be running out of bees. I still haven't gotten the queen. I closed off the tunnel this morning except for the little funnel. Now I am wondering if I should have done that. I will check the trap again in the morning. If I haven't gotten many bees I may just pull the trap, or if I keep trapping I suppose I need to put in some fresh brood. The frame I put in last week is mostly capped now.

I pulled bees from the trap on the house today (my first bunch of bees from the house) and I got about 4 pounds. I don't think I got the queen there either, but I didn't check the bees real close as I shook them into a nuc box. I'll check them closer tomorrow, and if she isn't in there I'll put a queen cell in the nuc and let them hatch her out. One good thing about having Russian bees you can always find a queen cell when you need one. Russians seem to always keep a cell ready just in case.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

If you only have one pound after 36 hours, you have severely weakened the hive.

Yes, I would also close off the tunnel. I have had many people tell me the queen came through the funnel, but, I do not believe I ever have.

I don't have a lot of faith in getting a queen from a house trap until perhaps the very end. And this late in the season it is much more difficult to get the queen to come out. I had a PM tonight that said the trap bees built queen cells in the trap. To me that would indicate the distance was too much, and the bees decided to make themselves a queen and have a 2d colony in the house and trap.

Don't give up.

Have you been reading about the trap that Josephus has designed. Sounds promising. (See posts above).

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Mr. Hogan: I did a trap out and got the queen to come with the rest of the bees. In a ten frame box 8 frames of bees. And they have eggs and I saw the queen today. They are also building nice comb. BTW this was a swarm just a few days old in a Log, June 3.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

I have been a beekeeper for a little over 35 years. I always gave all my honey away to friends and family. I never thought of making money selling bee products etc. I only recently got in to realizing that I need to sell something just for gas money etc. I ended up selling my last years honey instead of giving it away, then I thought of a few things that I have made for the hives like a spacer that would allow you to just start a nuc in a full size box and having the spacer be a moveable wall allowing the box to increase to them as they grew. That is so easy that even at $3.50 many beekeepers could make their own and the do.
I would like to make something on this and your advice is good to try a big company out. Thanks and hope things work out for every one. Joseph Rorie.

Re: Hogan trap out sequence

Originally Posted by Ben Franklin

I did a trap out and got the queen to come with the rest of the bees.

Ben Franklin.... Were you using the screen cone funnel or some other type.

Josephus... I also made what i think you are talking about. My device to make a 10 framer into a 3, 4, 5, or any other size nuc (up to 10 frames) hangs on the rabbet and seals off the 10 frame box anywhere you want. I used a normal top bar (just thicker) and cut the board the proper size to seal the ends , the top, and bottom. I will try to post a photo when i return from Georgia on Saturday.

Everyone... I will be in Georgia the rest of the week, and may or may not have internet service. If I can help anyone, just hang on, I will be back on Saturday.