can make things sound good when they aren’t. Truthfully, the best thing that can happen to your son is for him to lose his income and see how little his upslime cares for him when he can’t pay for the promotional materials. (I use upslime here because he’ll see, when he is broke and can’t pay for the tools, just how much they really care for him.)

I worked in treatment facilities a while ago and one thing I could never get used to was the level of denial people can show. Even watching a girlfriend in QS, I still found it hard to get used to. People in these states they get in can simply not hear what they don’t want to and their brain just can’t put together facts they don’t want to believe.

It’s something that is just so incredible and amazing that it’s almost impossible to believe. You’d think all you have to do is tell them the truth and they’ll listen, but they’ve been conditioned so they simply can’t believe or accept it and to believe that anyone telling them what they don’t want to hear is a bad person.

If you find it hard to grasp, watch all the news stories you can see about the blog in Texas where the 400+ children were taken away from them. Note how the women talk. They gave an interview, but they sound odd and they truly believe that they live in a good situation and that it’s okay for men to have sex with 13 year olds and for those children to bear children.

He has been involved with Quixtar for about 3 1/2 years now. He has walked away from college and spent god knows how much money on AMO’s (Amway Motivational Organizations ie Vegas), CD’s and ridiculously high priced “product”.
He is now living on his own, hand to mouth, but with the most expensive soap, toothpaste and energy drinks on the planet. And cases of them, because he has to have sales, and he is his main client. He spends all of his time (while not at his retail job) working on his business. He works at Shaper Image and they have filed bankruptcy, his store is closing, yet he spent the money to go to Vegas when he is not sure he will be able to pay his rent next month. And, oh yes, his cell phone provider has been calling a lot lately.

OK, now that I got all that out, if you truly care for this person you will try to go “gentle” with her and be very patient. You certainly do not have to agree with her, or be conned into any of the aspects of Quixtar, but if you are too harsh or negative, she will label you a “dream breaker” and could walk away from your friendship. And it may take her years to untangle herself from this web. She’ll a friend when she does, because she will not have any left.

Hal is correct when he said that she is being brainwashed. I have no doubt that my son is brainwashed. It’s heartbreaking and totally frustrating.

She is literally being brainwashed and I don’t use that term lightly. If you challenge the points her upline (I prefer upslime) makes, she will say you’re “negative” and break off contact, as they’ve been taught to do.

It’s worse than a drug because when one stops taking a drug, the effects can wear off faster than brainwashing.

Unfortunately, yes, this is something that many people have to go through and get beaten up and broke or in debt before they can’t go on.
Generally the upline tries to keep them in as long as they spend money on tools and once they can’t keep up with that, they get dropped like a hot stone

You can do best with questions. Others will say more and I have to get going so I don’t have much time, but I did want to give you a response as soon as possible so you know we are here and we want to help. For now, I’ll mention that asking questions that make her think and doubt will help, but they’ve also been taught double-think so they can say one thing, then something contradictory and not realize there is a problem with the two statements contradicting each other.

I will caution you that the worst thing you can do is directly confront her over it or tell her that it’s a scam. If you do, her upline will push her to shut you out so you can’t contaminate her thinking.

My best friend joined the wonderful team of Quixtar almost a year ago. I didn’t know too much about the company, other than it’s not for me. I have attended several of her home meetings and after the last one I will never go again, due to the research I have been doing on this company. And the stink eye we get from her I’m assuming Upline person.
The attitude is if we were her true friends we would buy more, and buy our own business! Not for me.Stink eye or not!
My friend is really no longer the person she used to be as she is always got something planned, function, meeting or weekend event. (this weekend it’s vegas)
In the beginning we wanted to support her on her new adventure but, this is ridicilous. How do we get her to realize this is not for her?
She won’t make money? ect.
Is this something she is going to have to go through for herself and come out beaten, broke, and dissapointed? Is it like a drug that can only be healed through therapy? I want to help her realize these things but, don’t know how to go about it?
Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

I also spent the better part of a decade teaching the disabled, and I mean all types of disabilities. All that anyone sees of you online, in a forum like this, is your writing. That’s all they have to judge who you are and how intelligent you are. From your writing, they will decide whether you know what you’re talking about or if you’re just a kid trying to sound big or a blowhard.

I go out of my way to make sure all my posts are legible and articulate. In other words, I take the extra effort to overcome my handicap and to make it a non issue so people don’t judge me on it. I do not use it as an excuse.

In this case, you have used it as an excuse. Nobody was making fun of you, nobody was deriding you. My point was that you weren’t taking the time or effort to make your post readable. If I can do it, so can you.

If you don’t care enough to take the effort to make your words and thoughts readable for others, then why should they care enough about your words to make effort to read them?

Your handicap is your attitude and that you’re willing to use a handicap as an excuse — then say if someone calls you on it, they’re making fun of you.

I know this sounds rough, but with a post like this, I wonder if the person writing it knows what they’re saying and is well qualified or if it’s someone who thinks he’s found a chance to make money on people and doesn’t have any background.

I have a learning disability, yet I can take the time to write a clear post that doesn’t leave people wondering if I know what I’m saying. These days, also, most email programs and many browsers have spellcheck.

Next, as far as Ambit goes, do you really want to invest all your time and energy into building a business that could take away your income with a 30 day notice? You can hope they don’t take it away, but if they are investigated by the government or have any other reason to worry about legal (or other issues), do you think the guys at the top will cover their butts or keep this working for you?

As you point out, why have the clause if they don’t expect potentials where they could need to (or want to) use it?

Also, be aware. Many MLMs are “front loaded” to make sure you make money when first joining so you get excited, then after you get involved and keep going, you have to invest more and more until you find you’ve been losing money for months or years but kept going because at first it was profitable.

Another point, and as I said, I’ve had to deal with a number of estate issues lately, is that I wouldn’t get involved in any setup where I could not hand my ownership or interest in it over to my trust.
Straight inheritance is, at this point, a foolish way to pass on any wealth, especially anything worth over $2 million (or $1 million if you’ve used the tax credit while alive). Trusts create a level of protection for the person with the money, but especially for those who would inherit it.

Many MLMs have clauses or terms that make doing something like this difficult. There’s no reason to do that (make it difficult) unless there’s something not entirely reputable going on.

I believe in full disclosure. This very important point in not noticed by most folks. I had a couple of people asking about leaving the long term income to their children. I believe there are others that want the same. That is the problem with many MLM they don’t fully disclose all important information. We can all help our neighbor by explaining all aspects of a venture. The inexperienced marketer may not know how to cover their bases. I don’t throw people to the wolves. Honesty and integrity are important qualities, in my world.

I joined the Ambit and I am making money. The money is there for awhile, But they dod have a clouse in there contract that they can stop the MLM program with a 30 day notice. Its great to make money now but don’t count on lone term. They would not have the clause if they did not expect to use it.

or I would have never realized how bad things were in Amwayland!!! LOL!!

If the rabidly “pro” people would simply accept that the folks who post here have been scammed/burned/let down by their various MLMs – and SUPPORT the posters – they might find they don’t get banned! I think the parameters for membership here are very fair, and create a “safe” place for people to find the help they seek.

While it can be very annoying to deal with these folks, I can see the benefits of letting them in. And if just one of them leaves and starts questioning, thinking for themselves, etc…..then its worth tolerating their crap.

but I did want the group to know that stuff does go on unseen here. I especially wanted everyone to know about the crazy increase in ban limits. Most of that banning, I’m guessing, is spammers attempting to get into Yahoo Groups. I’m glad there are barriers to them. Fortunately, while there is some work involved in getting rid of what does get through, there’s not a lot. For the most part, the behind-the-scenes stuff is still pretty fun and interesting.

I appreciate your comments, and I’m glad this forum does for you what it’s intended to do.

2) MLMers trying to recruit on their first post, including links and descriptions of the compensation plan. This would be MLMers who show no interest in any sort of conversation with our members. They just want to push their plan. I guess it’s another sort of spam, really.

If an MLMer comes in here and tries to post questions or even those pervasive “Have-any-of-you-heard-about…” messages, I lean toward letting their posts in, even if it turns out to be someone promoting an MLM. I do not ban them. I expect many of them to return some day to tell us how right we were (even if they can’t bring themselves to admit how wrong THEY were).

Anyway, 200 banned members PER DAY. I usually ban between 3 and 8 per day. What do you think? Should I be tougher? 😉

Just wanted you to know a little bit about what goes on behind the scenes here.

I don’t have the wording down and it’s one they won’t answer honestly to us, but it might get them thinking.

Start with asking them how many legs they have, then about how many they’ve had that quit on them. Basically create a baseline of how long it takes them to recruit one person and how long that person lasts.

Then focus on how long it takes for each of their legs to recruit someone and how long they last.

Then ask them, “If it took you 2 years to build up to 3 legs, then why do you think each person below you will do it any faster?”

It’s not a cure-all, but the idea is to get them to start thinking about how long it’s taken them to get a few legs under them, then to figure out how long it takes their legs to get legs and how quick their turnover is.
Along with that, when they point out how great a product it is and that it “sells itself,” ask, “If it’s so great, why aren’t I sold on it?”
And from there ask why, if it sells itself, their legs turn over so quickly and it’s so hard to get people to join. They’ve seen a large sampling of people that don’t care. Where are the people that do care and like it? If it sells itself, why is it that most people leave the program and that it’s so hard to recruit people?

As I said, these are not points they’d admit to, but the general thrust is something we can use along with other questions to try to get them to think it through and to get them to start thinking, in the back of their minds, that things may not be as they seem.

There are several things to look at when pondering this: First and foremost, are they mentioning “meetings”, or tapes/CDs or other “training materials” that cost extra money??? Many MLMs have “training systems” that follow them, and their main purpose is to earn more money from unsuspecting and trusting new recruits. As an example, Amway is actually a GREAT home-based company to deal with – but almost every IBO is connected to some sort of Motivational blog whose expenses far outweigh any profit one could ever make selling Amway products.

Look realistically at the products: are they either priced competitively; or are so unique that the average consumer can’t find them in retail stores?? Especially right now, given the downturn in the economy, it’s going to be hard to retail expensive juice or candles or toys or whatever, when the average folks can buy similar items at WalMart.

And what claims is the company making about your income?? Most home-based businesses, at best, will bring you some extra spending money. Often, you will be earning minimum-wage-per-hour; and that’s OK if you’re having fun, too. The moment the company starts making claims about wealth, or retirement, or luxury vacations/cars/homes….
be VERY afraid – the reason a few people are making LOTS of money is because a LOT of people are losing money!!

My favorite “Scam-MLM” website is ebay….LOL!! That where disgruntled ex-MLMers dump their inventory – and that’s where your competition will be. Check and see what prices the products are REALLY selling for – it’s usually eye-opening!

you cannot make any money promoting Photomax. (It is a division of NuSkin, one of the well known MLM companies). While it is a legitimate photo processing service, it is not on the cutting edge of internet photo services. Furthermore, because of the intense competition in that business and because they have nothing unique to offer, there is not enough money for any significant commissions. The team that recruited me promoted the service as a way to make enough residual income that I could “walk away in 36 months” and be rich.

After I signed up for $200 it was revealed to me that if I really wanted to succeed I had to be “coachable” and needed to invest $2,000 (it was payday loans no credit check from Ghloans.Com Inc.) to “fast track”. After I paid the money and asked them to coach me on how to get rich with Photomax it was explained that it really wasn’t realistic to expect commissions enrolling people in the service to do the job. The only way to get there was to sign up people like me as recruiters. Looking back, I see it was the classic bait and switch con, just an MLM version.

I was encouraged to buy leads at about $3 each from the lead system the blog the recruited me. I literally spent thousands of dollars buying and calling the “leads.” I built up a reasonable “downline,” none of whom produced one dollar of income for me or themselves. Looking back I suspect the principals of this team were (maybe still are) being enriched by sale of the leads.

Run, run away as fast as you can. I have tried about 10 MLM companies in the last 15 years, every time thinking I had finally found the “right one.” I was obviously under grand illusions, always thinking the MLM concept is just fine. Photomax was my last MLM stop, a very expensive one.

Run away like the wind. Play the lottery if you like living with dreams, you’ll have a slightly better chance of getting rich.

My sister in law is strongly involved in Isagenix. I know it’s a MN, so I know the odds are slim of making money but I don’t know anything else about their model. My wife joined under her sister but is not doing anything other than buying product on occasion. I did go through the cleanse and lost a few pounds but didn’t enjoy the process at all.

I did a Google search under “Isagenix” and “scam” and nothing came up on the business model end of it, but rather on the products the sell. Does anyone have more info on the business model? I would like to be armed with the right info should the topic come up again with my sister in law.

This same sister in law is now in another MN for travel. She tried to get us into it because we travel a lot and she said it could save us money. I told her I had zero desire to attend a meeting on it; but my wife now uses her sister’s web site to purchase airfare, car rental etc. I see we are getting charged $5 each time we transact anything through the web site. I don’t know the name of the MN, but if anyone knows, I’d like to find out more in the sense of whether we really would save on our travel if we had our own web site through MN without trying to bring anyone on under us; or is the savings far outweighted by the cost of getting involved.

They had a show about this on Oprah before and I believe it was called a dinner party. It’s sad becasue it preys on those who are desperate. One youtube video about this actually tells people to pawn things or borrow money to do this.

Perhaps I’m just making up my own definitions, but I consider “pyramid scheme” to be the umbrella term for all of these types of scams. Endless chains and Ponzi schemes, and MLM, would be types of pyramids, due to the shape of the structure that creates a financial return for the one, or few, at the top.

PW’s Distinction Of The Day:

The biggest difference between a pyramid scheme and a traditional business is, of course, the flow of money. In a traditional business, the flow is two-way (up and down) through the structure. In a pyramid, the flow is one-way (up to the top).

PW’s Recommendation Of The Day:

So whenever MLMers likens their businesses to businesses like IBM, Microsoft, McDonald’s or whatever, you have a basic distinction to throw back at ’em: the flow of money. (Remember to pose it as a question so that they have to go look it up somewhere.)

Unless you provide a product or service you cannot send money through the mail. Used to be called chain letters back in the 80’s. Wait till all of a sudden you see something in the local newspaper how the Fed’s are stepping in and you’ll see it come to crashing halt. Sort of like musical chairs when the music stops.

There seems to be a lot of those going around today. Especially on youtube. You see some person open up a fedex package that contains hundreds or thousands of dollars. How is this legal? I think this is just a pyramid scheme. Of course they all say it’s totall legal because you can get a certain amount of money from someone as a gift. They had these years ago and I know someone who lost 2k. I’m surpised these sort of operations haven’t gotten shut down yet.