Wednesday, December 7, 2016

Another interview

The following is a translation of an interview
given by Pope Francis, which
was published in the Italian daily newspaper,
Avvenire on 17 November, as the
Jubilee Year was about to come to a
close.

Holy Father, what did this Year of Mercy
mean to you?
When someone discovers he is loved,
he finds a way to escape a terrible
sense of isolation and separation that
includes even hatred of others and of
oneself. I hope many people have discovered
that they are deeply loved by
Jesus and have allowed themselves to
be embraced by him. Mercy is the very
name of God. It is also his weakness;
his soft spot. His mercy always leads
him to forgive and to forget our sins. I
like to think that the Almighty has a poor memory. The
minute he forgives, he
forgets. Because he is
happy to forgive. For me
this is sufficient, just as it
was sufficient for the
adulterous woman in the
Gospel “who loved
much” — “because he
loved much”. That is
what Christianity is all
about.

Yet this was a unique Jubilee
with many special
moments....
Jesus does not ask for
grand gestures; only
abandonment and gratitude.
Saint Thérèse of
Lisieux, a doctor of the
Church, in her “little
way” toward God, uses
the image of a child who
falls asleep instantly in
the arms of his father,
and she reminds us that
in the end, charity cannot
remain closed. Love
of God and love of
neighbour are two inseparable
loves.

Were the original aims of
this Holy Year achieved?
I really didn’t have a pre-set plan. I
simply acted upon the inspiration of
the Holy Spirit. Things just happened.
I allowed myself to be led by the Spirit.
We only needed to be docile to the
Holy Spirit, to let him do the work.
The Church is the Gospel, the work of
Jesus Christ. It is not simply a set of
ideas and a means of affirming them.
And in the Church things happen
when the time is right: when the opportunity
presents itself.

Such as an Extraordinary Jubilee Year....
It was a process that matured
through time by the work of the Holy
Spirit. Before me there was John XXIII
who in Gaudet Mater Ecclesia described
the “medicine of mercy” and indicated
the path to follow at the beginning of
the Council. Then there was Paul VI
whose paradigm was the story of the
Good Samaritan. Then there was the
teaching of Saint John Paul II with his
second Encyclical Dives in Misericordia
and the institution of the Feast of Divine
Mercy. Benedict XVI said that “the name of God is Mercy”. All of these
were pillars. In this way, the Spirit
pushes forth projects in the Church until
they are finally brought to completion.

This Jubilee was also the Jubilee of the
Council, “hic et nunc”, standing at the
crossroads of its reception and a special
time of pardon.
The lived experience of mercy embracing
the entire human family is precisely
the grace proclaimed through the
apostolic ministry. The Church exists
simply as an instrument for communicating
God’s merciful plan to the whole human race. At the Council, the
Church felt the responsibility of being
a living sign of the Father’s love in the
world. With Lumen Gentium, she went
back to the source of her very nature:
the Gospel. This shifted the focus of
Christianity from a certain legalism,
which can become ideological, to the
person of God who made himself
mercy through the incarnation of the
Son. Some — we can think of certain
reactions to Amoris Laetitia, for example
— still failing to see that it is not
always a matter of black and white,
even though it should be clear that discernment
has to take place in the very
flux of life. This is what the Council
told us; although it is true that historians
tell us that 100 years are necessary
before a Council is absorbed by the
body of the Church. So we are halfway
there....

During this time there have also been significant
ecumenical meetings and visits:
with Patriarch Bartholomew and
Hieronymus on Lesvos, with Patriarch
Kirill of Moscow in Cuba, and in Lund for the joint commemoration of the Lutheran
Reformation. Was it the Year of Mercy
that gave rise to these initiatives with other
Christian churches?
I would not say that these ecumenical
meetings were directly the fruit of
the Year of Mercy. No. Indeed, they
are part of a journey that goes way
back. They are not something new.
They were long in coming. From the
time of the publication of the conciliar
decree Unitatis Redintegratio over 50
years ago, which signaled a rediscovery
of Christian brotherhood based on one
baptism and a shared faith in Christ,
the journey along the path to unity
progressed in small steps and has yielded
fruit. This is the path I continue to
follow.

Those paths pursued by your predecessors....
Yes, in their footsteps. One important
step along this path was the dialogue
between Pope Luciani and the
Russian Metropolitan Nikodim. The
latter died suddenly in Luciani’s arms,
embraced by his brother bishop of
Rome. Nikodim said many beautiful
things about the Church. I also remember
all the heads of the Eastern
Churches present at John Paul II’s funeral:
this is brotherhood. Various
meetings and visits simply contributed
to this brotherhood and helped it to
grow.

You, however, in less than four years, have
met with all the primates and leaders of
the Christian churches. These meetings
span your pontificate. Why the acceleration
in pace?
This is simply the work of the Council
moving forward and gaining momentum.
But this is all part of the
journey, it isn’t me. This is the journey
of the Church. It is true that I have
met with primates and leaders of the
Eastern churches, but my predecessors
had their own meetings with various
leaders. I don’t believe that I have
sped up the process. The more we
move forward the faster it seems to go.
It is a motus in fine velocior, to use an
expression from Aristotelian physics.

How do you live out your own ecumenical
commitment in meetings with brothers from
other Christian Churches?
I live it out in a deep sense of brotherhood.
You can feel it. Jesus is right
there with us. They are all brothers to
me. We bless one another — one brother
blessing another. When I went from
Lesvos to Greece with Patriarch
Bartholomew and Archbishop
Hieronymus of Athens to meet with
refugees, we truly felt as one. We were
one. One! When I went to Fanar in
Istanbul to meet with Patriarch Bartholomew
for the Feast of Saint Andrew it
was a wonderful celebration. In Georgia
I met with Patriarch Ilia, who had
not gone to Crete for the Orthodox
council. The spiritual affinity I felt
with him was very deep. I felt like I
was in the presence of a saint, like a
man of God had taken me by the hand and told me many beautiful things as
much with his gestures as with his
words. These Patriarchs are true
monks. You can see that behind the
conversation they are men of prayer.
Kirill is a man of prayer, as well as the
Coptic Patriarch Tawadros whom I met
while entering the chapel. He was taking
off his shoes and preparing to pray.
A year ago, Patriarch Daniel of Romania
gave me a Spanish translation of
Saint Sylvester on Mount Athos, whose
biography I first read when I was still
in Buenos Aires: “pray for men and
shed your own blood”. The saints unite
us in the Church by bringing her mystery
to life. We are fellow sojourners
with our Orthodox brothers. We love
one another. We have the same concerns.
They even come here to study
with us. Bartholomew himself studied
in Rome.

You have already made much progress
with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew,
a Successor of the Apostle Andrew,
as evidenced by the joint declarations you
have made with him. I imagine that the
love that transformed the life of the
Apostles sustained you in this: Peter and
Andrew were brothers....
On Lesvos, while we were both
greeting the faithful, I leaned down to
a young child. But the child was not
interested in me. He was looking right
past me. I turned around to find out
why: Bartholomew had filled his pockets
with candy which he was giving out
to the kids. This is Bartholomew: a
man who was able to carry forth the
Great Orthodox Council despite all the
difficulties, to speak theology at a high
level, and to spend time with the children.
Whenever he came to Rome he
would stay at Santa Marta in the room
where I am living now. The only time
he ever scolded me was when he had to
change rooms!

You continue to meet often with heads of
other churches. But shouldn’t the Bishop
of Rome spend all his time caring for the
Catholic Church?
Jesus himself prayed to the Father
that they would all be one so that the
world might believe. This is his prayer
to the Father. From all time, the Bishop
of Rome is called to guard, seek,
and serve this unity. We also know that
the wounds of our divisions, which tear
apart the body of Christ, cannot be
healed by us alone. Therefore we cannot
simply implement projects or systems
to achieve unity. To achieve unity
among all Christians we must look at
Jesus alone and ask that the Holy Spirit
work among us. That he may be the
one to make unity. In the meeting with
Lutherans in Lund I repeated the
words of Jesus, who said to his
Apostles: “Without me, you can do
nothing”.

Why was it so important to commemorate
the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran
Reformation in Sweden? Was it a big step
forward ?
The meeting with the Lutheran
Church in Lund was a further step in
the ecumenical journey that began 50
years ago with the Lutheran-Catholic
theological dialogue, culminating in the
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of
Justification signed in 1999, or how Jesus
renders us just by saving us by his
grace: the very point that gave rise to
Luther’s initial reflections. So it is a return
to the essentials of the faith to rediscover
the nature of that which unites
us. Before me, Benedict XVI went to
Erfurt where he spoke very clearly
about this point. He emphasized that
the question “how can I have a merciful
God?” penetrated Luther’s very
heart and was the driving force behind
all his theological research and interior
reflection. It was a purification of
memory. Luther wished to carry out a
reform that could serve as a medicine.
Then things began to crystallize, there
were political interests involved, and it
finished in cuius regio eius religio, so that
one had to follow the religious confession
of the one who held power.

But there are those who think that you are
compromising Catholic doctrine by these
ecumenical meetings. Someone has commented
that you are giving in to a “Protestantization” of the Church....
I don’t lose any sleep over this. I am
following the path of my predecessors.
I am following the Council. As for
comments like that, we need to look at
the context and spirit in which they are
said. If they aren’t said with a mean
spirit, they help us in the journey. At
other times it is clear that criticisms are
made here and there to justify a position
already assumed. They are dishonest.
They are done with a mean spirit
or to foment division. It is clear that
certain kinds of rigidity are born from
something that is lacking, from a desire
to hide under the armour of one’s sad
sense of dissatisfaction. This rigid behaviour
is evident in the film Babette’s
Feast .

With the Lutherans too, there has been a
strong appeal to work together for those in
need. Do we therefore need to set aside
theological and sacramental questions and
aim only at a common social and cultural
commitment?
We don’t have to set aside anything.
Serving the poor means serving Christ,
because the poor are the flesh of
Christ. And if we serve the poor together,
it means that we Christians find
ourselves united in touching the
wounds of Christ. I am thinking of the
work that Caritas and the Lutheran
charitable organizations can do together
after the meeting in Lund. It is not
an institution; it is a journey. Sometimes
we place “matters of doctrine”
and “matters of pastoral charity” in opposition.
But according to the Gospel
they are not so. To do so only creates
confusion.

The joint commemoration in Lund signified
a moment of mutual acceptance and a
profound level of mutual understanding.
But from this point, how do we resolve ecclesiological questions that are
still open such as those regarding
ministry and the sacraments, especially
the Eucharist, that separate
us from the Lutheran
Church. How is it possible to
overcome these questions in order
to work toward a unity that is
visible to the world?
The Joint Declaration on
Justification is the basis for
progress on the theological
front. Theological research
must continue to move forward.
The Pontifical Council
for Christian Unity is contributing
to this work. The theological
journey is important, but
it must always be done in
prayer and be accompanied by
works of charity. These are visible
works.

You also said to Patriarch Kirill
of Moscow that “unity is achieved
by walking forward”, that “unity
will not come about as a miracle in the end; walking together is already
unity”. You repeat this often. But what
does this mean?
Unity does not come about just because
we agree on everything, but because
we walk, following Jesus. And by
walking, through the work of the One
we follow, we discover that we are
united. It is by walking behind Jesus
that we are united. To convert means
to let the Lord live and work in us. In
this way, we happen to discover
ourselves united in our common mission
of proclaiming the Gospel. By
walking and working together, we recognize
that we are already united in
the name of the Lord, and consequently
that we are not the creators
of unity. We recognize that it is the
Spirit who urges us and leads us forward.
If you are docile to the Spirit, it
is he who tells you the step you need
to take, and he will do the rest. You
cannot go behind Christ if he himself
does not lead you, if he doesn’t urge
you forward with his strength. For this
reason, it is the Spirit who is the creator
of unity among Christians. This is
why I say that unity is achieved by
walking, because unity is a grace that
one must ask for, and it’s also why I
say that every form of proselytism
among Christians is sinful. The Church
never grows through proselytism but
“through attraction”, as Benedict XVI
has written. Proselytism among Christians
itself is therefore a serious sin for
Christians.

Why?
Because it contradicts the very dynamic
by which we become and remain
Christians. The Church is not a soccer
team in search of fans.

What means, therefore, are to be used in
the quest for unity?
Fully engaging in the process rather
than just taking up space is also key in
the ecumenical journey. At this moment
in history, unity must be pursued in
three ways: by performing works of
charity together, by praying together,
and by acknowledging the common
confession as expressed in the common
martyrion (witness) received in the
name of Christ: in the ecumenism of
blood. It is there that the Evil One
himself recognizes our unity, the unity
of the baptized. The Evil One makes
no mistake in this. And these are all expressions of visible unity. Praying together
is something visible. Performing
works of charity together is something
visible. Sharing martyrdom in the name
of Christ is something visible.

But among Catholics there does not seem
to be a profound sensitivity for seeking
unity among Christians and a perception
of the pain of division.
The meeting in Lund, like the steps
in ecumenism that led up to it, was a
step toward a clearer understanding of
the scandal of division that wounds the
body of Christ. How can we bear witness
to the truth of love if we are fighting
among ourselves, if we separate
ourselves from one another? When I
was a child one never spoke with Protestants.
There was a priest in Buenos
Aires who sent a group of young
people to burn down the tents of the
evangelical missionaries whenever they
came to town. Times have changed.
The scandal has been overcome simply
by doing things together with gestures
of unity and brotherhood.

When you met with Kirill in Cuba, your
first words were: “We have the same baptism.
We are both bishops”.
When I was bishop of Buenos Aires,
I was very pleased with the many initiatives
launched by many priests to facilitate
the administration of the Sacrament
of Baptism. Baptism is the act by
which the Lord chooses us, and if we
acknowledge that we are united in baptism
then we are united in what is most
fundamental. This is the common
source that unites us all as Christians
and empowers every future step toward
full communion among us. In order to
rediscover our unity we don’t have to
“go beyond” baptism. To have the
same baptism means to confess together
that the Word was made flesh: this
saves us. Every ideology and theory is
begotten by someone who refuses to
stop here — who does not remain in the
faith that recognizes Christ as having
come in the flesh — and wants to “go
b eyond”. From here arise all the positions
that remove the flesh of Christ
from the Church, that “disincarnate”
the Church. If we look together at our
common baptism we will also be freed
from the temptation toward Pelagianism
that tries to convince us that we
are saved by our own efforts, with our own activism. And to remain in
baptism also saves us from gnosis.
This detracts from the nature of
Christianity and reduces it to a
way of esoteric knowledge that can
do without a real encounter with
Christ.

In an interview with ‘Avvenire’, Patriarch
Bartholomew said that the root
of division is the infiltration of
“worldly thinking” into the Church.
Would you agree that this is the
cause of division?
In my opinion, the greatest cancer
in the Church results from our
tendency to give glory to one another.
If someone does not know
who Jesus is, or has never met
Him, he still has the possibility of
meeting Him; but if someone is
already in the Church and moves
and acts within the Church precisely
because within that context
he cultivates and nourishes a hunger
for power and self-affirmation,
he suffers from a serious spiritual
illness and believes that the
Church is an inward-looking human
reality, where everything
moves according to the logic of
ambition and power. This phenomenon
also influenced Luther’s
reaction: he rejected the image of
the Church as an organization that
could go forward with or without
the Lord’s grace, by considering it
something to take for granted with
an a priori guarantee. And this
temptation to construct a self interested Church that leads to opposition
and hence division returns
again and again.

Regarding the Orthodox, you often recite
the so-called “formula” of
theologian-turned-Pope Ratzinger, according
to which, “as far as regards
the primacy of the Pope, Rome must
require from the Orthodox Churches
nothing more than what was established
and lived in the first millennium”.
But what does the perspective of
the Church of the first centuries suggest
is essential in the present time?
We must look back at the first
millennium because it can always
inspire us. It’s not a matter of
turning back in a mechanistic way.
It’s not a matter simply of “going
back”. But there are treasures from
then still valid today. I spoke a
moment ago of the temptation of
the Church to look only inwardly:
the sinful habit of gazing at herself
too much, as if believing she were
the source of her own light. Patriarch
Bartholomew said the same
thing in speaking of ecclesial “introversion ”. The fathers of the
Church of the first centuries clearly
believed that the Church lived
from moment to moment only by
the grace of Christ. For this reason
— as I have said before — they affirmed
that the Church does not
have her own light. They called
her mysterium lunae, the mystery of
the moon. Because the Church
gives light but does not burn with
her own light. And when the
Church, rather than gazing at
Christ, gazes at herself too much,
divisions occur. And this is what
happened after the first millennium.
Looking at Christ frees us
from this habit, as well as from the
habits of triumphalism and rigidity.
And it makes us walk together
along the path of docility to the
Holy Spirit who leads us to unity.

In some Orthodox Churches there is
resistance to the path to unity. Metropolitan
John Zizioulas calls them the
“Orthodox Taliban”. There are also
some pockets of resistance in the
Catholic Church. What can be done
about this?
The Holy Spirit brings
everything to completion according
to a timetable established by him
alone. So there is no reason for us
to be impatient, skeptical, or
anxious. The journey calls for patience
in guarding and improving
what already binds us, which is
much more than what divides us.
It is a matter of witnessing to his
love for all men so that the world
may believe.

2 comments:

Now Bergoglio want to make an unity to fulfill a "Common Mission"!Perhaps this so called mission is to overthrow the Catholic Church and create a counter church with all the infidels, heretics, schismatics and so on and bringing the New World Order.