With 1/3 of the 48 game season complete, what's your take on the Pens strengths and weaknesses so far? Please pick 3 Strengths & 3 Weaknesses as you see them.

*NOTE* - I had some difficulty picking weaknesses due to the success of the team and the fact they have not played Montreal or Boston yet. Other than NJ, no top teams so far on schedule. To find weaknesses, I dug deep into negative LGP posts, some of which I do not personally agree with, but I had to get them from somewhere and want to be objective

Needs include a physical veteran depth guy on defense and a veteran winger in the mold of Gary Roberts or Bill Guerin to skate with Geno and Neal. No flashy players or major trades are needed. Certainly a Brendan Morrow type of player would be ideal. Ray Whitney or even Jagr would compliment that line well if their respective teams are out of the hunt.

Bylsma can't forget about Vokoun and needs to keep both goalies fresh. Teams that have older goaltenders and fail to do this will come to regret it in the playoffs, especially in long overtime games. He's done a great job so far with this but Vokoun needs a game this week.

Neal and Malkin need to stop taking penalties, especially in the offensive zone. Neal has scored some great goals but he only has a couple of assists and needs to play better away from the puck. He's the worst +/- on the team.

In order to keep Letang healthy and rested, he should get reduced minutes on the PK and late in games when the team has a multiple goal lead. Niskanen and Bortuzzo are good enough to be able to absorb some of those minutes. Letang was tired/injured the past three playoffs, I don't care what anyone says.

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.

Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.

Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.

That's an odd definition IMO. I'm not sure what kind of scoring one can "expect" from a team's third and fourth lines. Kennedy scoring is found money. Same for Cooke. Sutter I'd like to see supplement the top two lines with 15-20 a year, so maybe he could be potting a better rate. But I don't know that I "expect" goal-scoring from those guys, let alone a line with Craig Adams and Tanner Glass.

I'd put Kunitz and Dupuis in the secondary scoring bucket because no one goes into a game saying "we need to stop them." An empty sweater on the top two lines is a big problem, especially compared to one in the bottom 6. If 87/71/11 aren't scoring, Kunitz/Dupuis/Sutter/Letang are who I look to to pick up the slack, which is exactly what "secondary scoring" is in my mind.

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.

Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.

Even so, about 34% of the goals scored are coming from outside the top 6. It stands to reason in games they've lost that they haven't scored enough goals.

we have 8 goals in 16 games from our 3rd and 4th line skaters. 34 goals from our top 5, since we haven't had 6 permanent skaters. our defense has scored more goals than the 9 forwards we have used in the bottom 6. that's not sustainable long term. our 3rd line has 6 goals. 6... in 16 games. secondary scoring is a huge problem on this team.

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Biggest weakness by far is lack of secondary scoring. Not even a contest.

I disagree. The Pens are tied for third in goals scored in the NHL (TB:55, ANA: 53, PIT/STL:52). I define secondary scoring as anyone outside of Sid, Malkin, or Neal. In a normal, 82-game year, those guys are going to score between 120-150 goals, which is approximately half of your total output for the season (Pens have been between 235-285 the past few years). So far this season, the three of them have 21 goals, which is 40% of the team's output, which is actually a bit on the low side given that Malkin is rarely going to go through a stretch of 3 goals in 16 games as he has this season. I don't really see it as an issue. I think adding a piece for Malkin's line still makes sense given the cap space and the fact that the time is now to win a cup, but their secondary goal scoring is not an issue so far IMO.

Secondary scoring is goals coming from the bottom 6 in my definition. Dupuis and Kunitz are first liners so they most definitely are not secondary. In the games where they've lost, the lack of scoring in the depth lines has been painfully obvious.

Even so, about 34% of the goals scored are coming from outside the top 6. It stands to reason in games they've lost that they haven't scored enough goals.

Probably a lot of that 34% came from the D but I get your point. I guess my point in this is that J Staal was a contributor, TK actually used to score goals (seems odd to even think about that now), and Asham and Rupper and pals would steal a goal here and there. It just seems that if Sid's line or Nealer isn't out there, you can pretty much forget it. In the playoffs, at least the top 3 lines need to be threats or you're dead.

Realistically, TK should have 3 goals instead of 1. That would put him on pace for 15, which is about what he is: a 15-goal scorer. I don't see TK's two "missing" goals as being a big difference. Cooke has 2 goals. Sutter has 2, maybe he should have 3 or 4. I don't see this as an issue, but I hear where you guys are coming from.

pfim wrote:Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.

Sutter's been getting 1:26 PP/TOI v. 1:59 PP/TOI for Staal. Closer than I thought. Staal did play significantly more at ES (3:30 more) per game compared to Sutter. That third line -- even apart from the goal scoring discussion -- has been unquestionably worse from a non-scoresheet possession standpoint.

pfim wrote:Well if the argument is that Sutter isn't as productive as Staal, then you'll get no argument here. Though Staal got over 20 minutes a night last year and had fairly significant PP time.

Sutter's been getting 1:26 PP/TOI v. 1:59 PP/TOI for Staal. Closer than I thought. Staal did play significantly more at ES (3:30 more) per game compared to Sutter. That third line -- even apart from the goal scoring discussion -- has been unquestionably worse from a non-scoresheet possession standpoint.

seriously. it's ok to say that sutter is a capable 3rd line center (though i can't say i've been wow'ed in that regard), but you can't try to qualify why his offensive stats aren't as good as staal's with any other explanation besides "he's nowhere near staal's talent level".

I voted 4 positive, 2 negative. Right now I think the Pens are doing all right, could be better could be worse. Need more discipline with the penalties and retaliating but we've seen them in worse spots.