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Dungeons & Dragons Online developer Turbine has announced that they'll be launching a new version of the game, called Eberron Unlimited, which makes it free to play, with the option of using micro-transactions to buy certain items and customize characters. Players will also be able to earn points through normal play that they can spend in the DDO Store. There's an additional option to pay a normal subscription fee for priority access to servers, a monthly allotment of points for the store, and extra character slots. Further details and a sign-up for the beta are available at the game's website.

Having just pay-for-play sets a threshold. You'll still have annoying players, but not as many. I'd want a "Play at +1, ignore Anonymous Cowards" option for the "VIP" (for-pay) accounts.

I'm a dick to people in WoW only because it's the last fun thing to do. Raiding? PVP? I'd rather just grief. Even with pay-to-play, you spend your $15 a month to play how you want, I spend mine to camp people, troll the realm forums, and do old content with friends.

I, of course, do not ninja loot like some people or interfere with a guilds progression. That's where I draw the line.

Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he does. Death in wow has zero penalties, and it's absolutely within the game mechanics to grief people like he does. Maybe you need a -1 reality check (aka overrated) mod?

Eve allows tons of griefing, as does darkfall, as does any game with PVP, especially if you're on a PVP server. The victims that are bad players always cry out like no other, which feeds and entertains those who choose to grief. If you choose to carebear all day then do so, that's your $15.

There's no penalty only if your time is worthless. Say you were on your way somewhere and then BAM you're a ghost 10 minutes from your corpse. Run back to your corpse and BAM you're a ghost for 10 more minutes. You get the idea.

If a another player can attack you in the wild then you have either engaged yourself in PvP recently, or willingly rolled on a PvP server. In either event it was a choice on gameplay style that you made. Personally, I LOATHE corpse runs like you mention because I have limited time and don't want to spend time in the ghost world due to griefers. And that's why I rolled on a *PvE* server and don't throw pot shots and flagged players. Problem solved.

True. Hadn't thought about that option. I have seen plenty of "general" chat though from people requesting help with some <faction> players camping them. As long as I'm not too busy, I tend to lend a hand

No - you could get in other people to help you out. That's what world PvP is about. Personally I hate that gamestyle, so I don't participate, but signing up and then complaining about reality is stupid.

Example - I shoot IPSC matches (pistol competition) occasionally. I shoot in the production division (factory configuration guns) because I can't afford a $2k+ gun to really stand a chance in the open division (more or less sky is the limit custom guns). That's fine by me - but very often at a match I'll h

If you are playing an MMORPG, your time is worthless. They are all insane time-sinks. Even a casual-friendly game like WoW where you can "just log in and out for short sessions" realistically takes close to an hour or so just to log in, check and relist auctions, do a couple of daily quests, mail off new loot to your mule, and say hi to friends. And that's just the daily-chore part of playing.

There's no penalty only if your time is worthless. Say you were on your way somewhere and then BAM you're a ghost 10 minutes from your corpse. Run back to your corpse and BAM you're a ghost for 10 more minutes. You get the idea.

Ghost? Who plays Ultima Online anymore?;)

(I mean all other games don't have the ghost system as far as I know but instant respawn at your bind point)

Time is not a true penalty for the sense of this argument. I recognize the respawn delay if you die too much, running to your body, etc. However, 10 minutes of your time isn't a real cost: you don't lose any resources. No gold or gear is lost from being ganked. Just your pride, which people get butthurt over. As the guy said, he isn't griefing people mid-quest, he's just griefing randoms.

Not picking on your post specifically, but it's interesting that within 10 minutes of my original post I got two responses telling me that if I don't enjoy WoW PvP I shouldn't roll on a PvP server. What's interesting is that I wasn't expressing an opinion on PvP, I was just stating that there is a penalty to it.

It's also an interesting response because it's the same knee-jerk defense of WoW PvP I've read in many other forums. If you don't like it, go away. If that's become such a quick response to anything that seems even remotely to be an attack on PvP, maybe that says something about how PvP is broken in WoW. Can you play on a PvP server without griefing or being griefed? What if all your friends are griefers and refuse to roll on anything but a PvP server? Is there any point to playing on a PvP server besides being able to one day grief others? Do people even distinguish between griefing and PvP anymore or is it basically, "You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."

And no, I don't play WoW so I don't need advice on what server to roll on. I'm just a bit disappointed in what PvP has come to be defined as. I tell my WoW playing friends that when I want to PvP I'll load up DoD:S or TF2. That's consensual PvP.

"You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."

Yes that is exactly how it is. If you didn't want to play where you were always in constant danger of being killed you shouldn't play on the server that is set up with exactly those dynamics.

being an asshole to other players. Something about playing PvP seems to bring out the desire to be an anonymous fuckwad towards other people. Probably because there are no consequences, and partially because it grants the illusion of power to the PvPer, even if it is only the power to annoy.

Its a shame too, because I have enjoyed PvP in the past in games where at least some people had a sense of sportsmanship (early DAOC for instance), but that sort of player seems to have disappeared, buried in the mass of total asshats that the hobby throws up like so much putrid trash.

I no longer PvP in any game because I just don't want to be bothered spending my time associating with people whom if I met them in real life and they talked and acted the way they do to me in game, I most likely would kick them in the nuts repeatedly.

It is possible to PvP and not grief, it is possible to PvP and if you win, not Tbag or asshat your enemy, it is possible to lose without whining. If you join a PvP server you know you are facing the worst of online humanity, you can expect conduct that wouldn't be tolerated in grade school by people who don't seem to have passed grade school. At best they are a loathesome pile of shit, obscuring the few decent players I have met and in a lot of cases they aren't even very good.

I think the answer is to stop PvPing. Fuck those guys, if they can't play nice, don't play. Its a waste of time. I enjoy other aspects of games quite happily and always have. I just gave up on PvPing because the quality of people I had to associate with wasn't worth the bother. Plus the gameplay gets kind of stagnant eventually as well.

That's so lame. Duels are only fun for so long in an open world. It's the guerilla ambush tactics -- hit and run... People don't sit down for a nice, romantic picnic with their pretend girlfriend in TF2 in the middle of the woods, unwary that you and a small warparty are stealthed nearby, waiting to jump out and tear their heads off. Before the expansions, when I still played, I would go into the enemy's single auction house and clear out the auctioneers. It was hilarious watching 50 people, in shock,

It's also an interesting response because it's the same knee-jerk defense of WoW PvP I've read in many other forums. If you don't like it, go away. If that's become such a quick response to anything that seems even remotely to be an attack on PvP, maybe that says something about how PvP is broken in WoW. Can you play on a PvP server without griefing or being griefed? What if all your friends are griefers and refuse to roll on anything but a PvP server? Is there any point to playing on a PvP server besides being able to one day grief others? Do people even distinguish between griefing and PvP anymore or is it basically, "You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."

I started my characters on a PVP server when the game first came out, and it was a lot of fun. Running into someone and not knowing whether they'd be friendly or hostile, the constant paranoia, the fight for control of quest resources--it made the game a little more interesting.

(Disclaimer: I played a night elf rogue, so my character usually had the jump on people, and he had good escape abilities if things went sour. Other classes didn't have such an easy time.)

you cannot be really griefed on most WOW server, as you have to MAKE yourself pvp enabled to be griefed. The rest of the idiot you can just add to your ignore list. You cannot be ganked as a player if you have not made yourself pvp in wow and the server setting are normal.

There's no penalty to the character inside the game. There's a penalty to the person controlling that character in the real world (You've made them waste time waiting to respawn if nothing else, haven't you? You've made them devote time to a fight they consider pointless, rather than getting on with a mission that they don't feel is a waste of time. You've made them play your game, instead of the one they came to play. Often they lose any progress developing their character for the session, which I for one

I guess I don't understand why this would be fun for you. You are like a stalker. You follow around some poor girl who doesn't want you around her all for what? All you are doing is wasting your own time and making other people unhappy. It is fun for you. But what does that say about you? Were you abused as a child? Do you not have social skills and lack friends? I both think you are pathetic and feel sorry for you. You must have some real mental problems.

I guess I don't understand why this would be fun for you. You are like a stalker. You follow around some poor girl who doesn't want you around her all for what? All you are doing is wasting your own time and making other people unhappy. It is fun for you. But what does that say about you? Were you abused as a child? Do you not have social skills and lack friends? I both think you are pathetic and feel sorry for you. You must have some real mental problems.

World of Warcraft is a game. Part of the game (at least on some realms) includes player versus player combat. While I personally don't get into "camping" players more than 2-3 kills (mainly as revenge for a previous kill on me), I don't see anything wrong with people doing it. On a PvP server (my character is horde on Shattered Halls), I'm actually surprised that it doesn't happen more often.

I thinks its more the case that he was one of the fat nerdy kids bullied at school, and now he decided to bully other people to build up his self-image, but lacks the cojones to do it in person. Its his shining moment to attempt to be an alpha male, and grab some sense of power in a world that he generally perceives himself to be completely powerless in.

Its like all the moronic trolls of the internet, basically. I doubt even 1% of them were abused as children, or such. Their just social rejects who were

He's not scamming people and isn't violating the rules to do his stuff. If people don't want to risk being camped they can play on a PvE server.

If he were doing things like running instances and rolling need on everything or running instances and intentionally getting people in his party killed over and over and over, or scamming people in some way, that would be one thing. But camping someone is perhaps a bit unsportsmanlike, but perfectly within the rules.

What are you talking about?
I've been playing Runes of Magic, which seems to me the same free-to-play but pay-for-extras model, for a month and none of the things you say happens, happens. All of my interactions with other players have been civil and mature. I've never played WoW so griefing may be common there but since it doesn't happen in Runes of Magic, a free game, your theory goes out the window.

How big is Runes of Magic? Sure, it's completely possible to have a civil player-base, but it's easier (and more likely) when it's a small devoted base as opposed to a large sprawling population of players.

And if you ever want to visit griefer central, try out EVE sometime (also with a monthly charge).

EVE is a game that revolves around griefing. Griefers camp strategic points in space. Anti-griefers hunt the griefers. Industrialists supply both sides with new ships and supplies. Occasionally there are large scale lagfests where groups of people destroy lots and lots of each other's ships to compete for griefing rights in a certain area of space.

The reason why this is so successful is because, as a post a few up from here notes, what is there left to do? It's just not worthwhile for a company to write that much content for people paying only $15 a month. And in a virtual world like that of EVE, PvP tends to evolve into griefing instead of even matchups or other formal PvP.

It's sad that we live in a MMO gaming world where everyone who isn't a rude, ruthless prick of a griefer is derided as a "carebear." Some of us play games to actually have fun, you know. Not all of us are anti-social outcasts looking to take our anger out on the world.

Most of the WoW population plays on PVE servers and enjoys instanced PVP on a regular basis.

That's great. I've played on the PvE servers as well.

I fail to see the problem with someone enjoying the game the way they see fit.

I don't have a problem with someone enjoying the game as they see fit. I do have a problem with the people who go onto PvP servers and then whine about the rules of the server and try to get things gimped so it's more like a PvE server. If you want to play on the PvE play on the PvE server and leave those of us on the PvP servers alone instead of trying to gimp the gameplay on our server.

So your definition of carebear are people who PvP against people with a similar level that has specific objectives? Ahh, you fit the stereotype Eve player. A jerk that thinks that they are intellectually and skillfully superior to other because they are able to put up with the worst user interface to an MMO ever. The game is simple except for the layers of menus that have been created by people banned from working at Apple. It's sad, there are certainly nice people in Eve. But the vocal majority of Eve

So your definition of carebear are people who PvP against people with a similar level that has specific objectives?

No, my definition of a carebear is someone who goes on to a PvP server (where they have chances to be killed all the time) and then whine about it as if someone broke the rules.

Ahh, you fit the stereotype Eve player. A jerk that thinks that they are intellectually and skillfully superior to other because they are able to put up with the worst user interface to an MMO ever.

Nope, I hated EVE. Played it for about a month and got bored.

Anti-social little pricks that will ask for your stuff if you criticize anything about the game.

I don't. I criticize people who go onto PvP servers or games and then whine about the fact that *gasp* they actually got killed by other people. If you don't want to be in constant danger of being killed roll on a PvE server or play a game that isn't PvP-oriented and sto

If you open source an online game with a client you're going to get aimbots, programs that triple the onscreen size of all your enemies, speedhacks, and a whole host of other forms of cheating. That's just what happens when you let people modify whatever they want in the client.

Not if you do it right, require a signed stack and other DRM-like tricks and your at least as safe as a closed source game. Open source means you can't hide your server side deficiencies (trusting the client) behind client side code, but at the end of the day between decompiers are reverse engineers the bulk of your code will be out there anyway. TBH whatever you do your going to get cheats and hackers (although speed hacks are down to poor server-side code), I'm an FPS guy and whether your paying HL(w/ VAC

It's tricky but i fail to see how getting major distros to sign their openGL/audio stacks, then requiring the clients to verify they are using a valid stack, is impossible? And you can also verify the client is valid by using a small 3rd party executable, like closed source games do. yeah its not perfect as you either need to close some of the source (the verifying software) or just accept that no protection is perfect and hopefully raise the bar above that of HL/whatever game cheats love playing at the mom

"Additionally many cheats can be caught out, and subsequently banned by using secure servers, with dumb clients (speedhack,aimbot,etc are easy to see server side)"

On that note - I've wondered before - this wouldn't work for all types of possible cheats, but it seems to me like it should be possible to do some sort of server-side automatic analysis of client behavior, to see if people are using something like a speedhack, or certain other types of cheats, and auto-ban those types of accounts? Or, for gold-fa

Only if you are an idiot. The first rule of client-server programming is don't trust the client. Don't give the client any more data than it needs, validate all messages from the client. Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information. Speed hacks only work because the server is allowing the client to move more than the correct amount (i.e. not validating the input). As for tripling the size of on-screen enemies and aimbots; if your game depends so

Only if you are an idiot. The first rule of client-server programming is don't trust the client. Don't give the client any more data than it needs, validate all messages from the client. Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information. Speed hacks only work because the server is allowing the client to move more than the correct amount (i.e. not validating the input). As for tripling the size of on-screen enemies and aimbots; if your game depends so much on your ability to click accurately on small things to be fun, the odds are that it isn't.

No, wallhacks work because it is very expensive to perform thorough visibility checks on every single frame of the game(See Potentially visible set [wikipedia.org] on Wikipedia). The idea is that a precalculated set of areas have information as to which other areas are potentially visible from that particular area. This means that an area spanning a corridor would have visibility into adjacent corridors, and thus, you could 'see' around corners with translucent walls.

Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information

Games might suck a little without sound - and it would be a bit much having to render all the sound on the server.

if your game depends so much on your ability to click accurately on small things to be fun, the odds are that it isn't.

I don't know, I've had a lot of fun playing games like Counter-Strike where if you're good you can take someone out with one shot to the head (you can also do spray and pray and it's still fun and feasible with the right tactics, but you're more likely to die than if you take people out with razor-like precision). Games where you repeatedly have to pummel hundreds of shots into anywhere on a pla

aimbots, programs that triple the onscreen size of all your enemies, speedhacks, and a whole host of other forms of cheating

Y'all ever play a MMORPG? They're Heroism By Spreadsheet; "aimbot" is a non sequitur.

Speedhacks, gosh, since WOW is plagued by them [google.com], I guess it must be because the client is open source, rather than because some spazz dev decided that it was a good idea to have the server trust the client, right?

Any popular game is going to have its client, or client protocol, compromised. There'

There's this thing - the "server". It can do things like "hack prevention" and "sanity checks". Who's to say that the only contribution to open source would be client-side hacks and not server-side anti-hack improvements?

I'm not argueing for open source games, but saying there will be hacks because of open source is just as dumb as saying an open source encryption tool is less secure than closed source security-by-obscurity implementation.

There are limits to what server-side checking can do. When your MMO starts getting overrun by people with autoclickers, bots and other annoyances that can be done client-side, no amount of server-side checking can help you.

You can validate who is on the other end just fine (accounts, encryption keys, etc), what you can't check is what they are doing (cheating, displaying information sent to then in unintended ways or using scripts to generate input faster than a human could).

Apologies for replying to myself, but something else I thought of that would be awesome is a network game where some hacks are allowed. It could have a relatively complex goal that is hard to obtain doing it by hand, but the "real" purpose of the game is to write a hacked client that tries to fool the server into thinking its legit that performs this task. Sort of a honeypot MMO.

Obviously, this idea is incompatible with the goals of the above idea. Just something that popped into my head.

... and to see someone make a niche game that actually caters DnD players VS whatever the heck Turbine tried to do with it. The screwed up on a lot of things. No randomized dungeons. No turn based combat (yes, it has it's issues but DnD is turn based - figure out how to do it right or GTFO). Absolutely terrible grinding with almost no content at launch.
How do you take a niche market like MMOs, pick a setting that drills down your niche market even further, and then try to make it for anyone but these people?

I'll have to agree, but they were shooting for a larger audience. I'll have to say the first month was fun. I'm sorta casual when I play an MMO, but after the first month I'd done damn near everything in the game at that point. They also kept changing spell effects and effects of other abilities, never knew what you were going to be able to do when you logged on.
A couple things that I did like though; tactical use of the environment. If I was on the 2nd floor and I could see enemies on the first, I could

The whole point why successful dating services (yeah who would have throught MMOs and Dating Services had something in common) charge is to create a cost-of-entry that separates serious participants from the rest of the population.

By making a game free-to-play you are inviting disaster as many/.'ers have pointed out.

In fact game studios would do far better to charge MORE for certain options.

I know at least 400 VN board members that pleaded with Mythic for a 21+ and over server for DAOC. We were so damn sick of the 10 year olds playing...

Same with the hard core role players. They were willing to shell out $20 a month for a hard core, RPG server.

I'd wager you would also get some people to kick in $5 extra a month for say 40 and older servers also for people that still remember how to spell OKAY.

Seriously free-to-play means every idiot and their cousin can get on. Remember how pissed the techie crowd was with AOL and COMPUSERV for bring ever no-nothing to the Internet?

Seriously look what happened to WoW when they started their free trial program. First week alone on Tichndrius there where 200+ people spamming Gold ads in Ironforge forever renaming it LAGFORGE and SPAMFORGE.

Even after the tweaks to shut up folks on trial accounts you still had to contend with starting an alt and have 100 level 1 bots camping every spawn with some level 40 (at the time) telling you that if you want to kill stuff you had to play him 10 gold. (We had a big problem with Cross Realm extortionists back then...)

Seriously D&D Online must have sucked pretty bad for flying this low under the radar and making a free-to-play version sounds like a really really bad idea...

But hey I love being proven wrong. It happens once in a while and I find it refreshing.

The most disconcerting reality checks came in groups where based on the player's chat and performance I'm -positive- they're a kid...Then they say they need to go afk "cuz my kid's crying."

The tragedy of teenage pregnancy strikes reaches even into the online world!

But seriously, it's funny how some of my best WoW-only friends have been actually kids in the 10-15 range. Sure they think Chuck Norris jokes are hilarious no matter how many times you spam chat with them,

O.K., as far as I know, is the older form, dating for 1839; whereas "okay" dates from the 1890s. The initialism "O.K." seems to have been replaced by the "OK" form in the 1970s, even though it's still pronounced as an initialism, rather than an acronym.

The only approach I can think of that might work is to ahve a server that is heavily moderated and people are banned reasonably often.

I agree and think this works well in a small group environment. It's obvious who is there to have a good time and who is there to be an asshat. Admins know the regulars and take the time to know newbies. When somebody logs on to cause trouble they can whip out the ban stick very quickly.

I used to help admin a small MUX. No formal rules or penalties, just have a good time and be a decent human being. I had no trouble banning obvious troublemakers on a first offense. Everyone was very happy with this common

Your point about dating services and costs of entry is undercut by various scandals at places like match.com, where it was demonstrated that female employees were creating profiles and going on dates as part of their job, in order to balance the male/female ratio and keep men paying the monthly fee.

The whole point why successful dating services (yeah who would have throught MMOs and Dating Services had something in common) charge is to create a cost-of-entry that separates serious participants from the rest of the population.

I would like to point out that one of the most succesful datingsites at the moment is Plenty of Fish [plentyoffish.com]... which is free.
I've used it for quite some time now (not necesarily looking for a relationship, but also for some extra friends), and I got to say that the amount of fake pr

Maybe it's just too early in the morning, but am I really reading this correctly off of that one hyperlink in the/. article summary?

Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron UnlimitedGuts: use them or lose them in DDO Unlimited. Get unlimited combat, unlimited adventure, and unlimited fun without a credit card or a subscription when DDO Unlimited launches later this summer.- Level cap raised to the natural limit of 20-...

I'm sure they don't all mean it this way, but some people have this whole idea that poorer people are more often messed up, stupid, or crooked. Somehow, getting to the point where you have a little more disposable income makes you a better person. It's a really silly version of a Marxist class struggle argument - especially when we are not talking rich vs. poor but 'lower middle class' vs. 'upper lower class', or something like that. For games, we're talking abut the difference between people who can afford

So, you are 23 and making an issu about 15 dollars, worried that you might not get your moneys worth.

Some of us have jobs. 15 bucks is nothing, barely a movie and that lasts what 2 hours?

By all means, keep up the argument that a monthly fee is to expensive, but accept the label "cheapo" that comes with it.

Personally, I would have preffered is some games had special servers with say a 50 euro monthly fee and 200 euro deposit. The extra money could go to extra support and the deposit is lost if you are ban