OK, another question: these sims seem to indicate (and you say in another thread) that the dps loss from going from SoT to SoI is only around 3.7K, roughly 4.5%. However, in your ability damage numbers you have censure ticking for 36K per tick, I assume every 3 seconds modified by haste, and hence around 12K dps. In game play and logs confirm that censure is normally over 15% of our dps; see http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-l ... 016&e=8275

Note that in those logs Seal of Truth itself is 4.7% of his dps, a very close match to the dps loss these numbers ascribe to switching out SoT. Is it possible that the SoI sims turn off Seal of Truth procs, but keep censure on the target?

any indication on the new vengeance? I was kinda surprised when I pulled of almost 60k DPS on yorshaj in LFR yesterday as a tank... on the other side, with BiS gear that I posses, I had a hard time keeping up on aggro from a disc priest smiting for > 30k in a 5man dungeon...

Weebey wrote:OK, another question: these sims seem to indicate (and you say in another thread) that the dps loss from going from SoT to SoI is only around 3.7K, roughly 4.5%. However, in your ability damage numbers you have censure ticking for 36K per tick, I assume every 3 seconds modified by haste, and hence around 12K dps. In game play and logs confirm that censure is normally over 15% of our dps; see http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-l ... 016&e=8275

Note that in those logs Seal of Truth itself is 4.7% of his dps, a very close match to the dps loss these numbers ascribe to switching out SoT. Is it possible that the SoI sims turn off Seal of Truth procs, but keep censure on the target?

I have to run here, but I'll look into this tonight. Censure used to be coded such that it was contingent on SoT; I don't think I changed that, but it's possible I made that mistake while re-coding something.

Schroom wrote:any indication on the new vengeance? I was kinda surprised when I pulled of almost 60k DPS on yorshaj in LFR yesterday as a tank... on the other side, with BiS gear that I posses, I had a hard time keeping up on aggro from a disc priest smiting for > 30k in a 5man dungeon...

do rotation priorities stay the same here with high vengeance?

The numbers are a few posts above. It doesn't seem that there's a significant change going from 50k to 100k Vengeance.

On a slightly related note could it be worth tracking SS and reapplying, if all of the absorb gets used in the 1st sec of the 6 sec tick cd, or just hitting SS on every empty GCD to try and get more absorbs out of it.Sry not very clear, I'm thinking of after it's initial cd has expired.

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

daishan wrote:On a slightly related note could it be worth tracking SS and reapplying, if all of the absorb gets used in the 1st sec of the 6 sec tick cd, or just hitting SS on every empty GCD to try and get more absorbs out of it.Sry not very clear, I'm thinking of after it's initial cd has expired.

1) I'm not sure if that works; Refreshing SS may not immediately grant you a new bubble. I haven't tested it specifically, but I thought that SS was a combination of two buffs. The first is the one you cast on yourself, the second is the 6-second bubble that the first one generates every "tick." If that's correct, refreshing the base buff shouldn't do anything to the tick spacing (just like refreshing a DoT, for example).

2) Even if it did, casting SS every GCD, or even every other GCD, is going to cost a lot of DPS and a significant amount of SotR uptime, which probably negates any benefit you might get from it. Maybe a queue like CS>J>AS+>SS would help that, but again, you'd only be refreshing SS about once every 3 GCDs, and it would come at a significant DPS cost.

daishan wrote:On a slightly related note could it be worth tracking SS and reapplying, if all of the absorb gets used in the 1st sec of the 6 sec tick cd, or just hitting SS on every empty GCD to try and get more absorbs out of it.Sry not very clear, I'm thinking of after it's initial cd has expired.

1) I'm not sure if that works; Refreshing SS may not immediately grant you a new bubble. I haven't tested it specifically, but I thought that SS was a combination of two buffs. The first is the one you cast on yourself, the second is the 6-second bubble that the first one generates every "tick." If that's correct, refreshing the base buff shouldn't do anything to the tick spacing (just like refreshing a DoT, for example).

2) Even if it did, casting SS every GCD, or even every other GCD, is going to cost a lot of DPS and a significant amount of SotR uptime, which probably negates any benefit you might get from it. Maybe a queue like CS>J>AS+>SS would help that, but again, you'd only be refreshing SS about once every 3 GCDs, and it would come at a significant DPS cost.

just did some testing in org and casting SS instantly reapplies the 6 second buff (and increases the duration of the original buff too 31-32 seconds) i tested it by casting SS waiting for the 6 second CD to end then recasting when the buff had 3 seconds left and it refreshed back to 6 seconds instantly also popping a strength trinket between refreshes made the new bubble stronger so its definitely a new bubble and not just the duration being refreshed will test it later on taking damage to ensure that it refills the absorb but at the moment it looks like filling every empty GCD with SS casts might be worthwhile and in some fights recasting it almost on cooldown (not negating our hopo based stuff of course) might be that little extra survival we need

also just noticed a bug with reapplying SS when reapplying it it extends the duration like a HoT or DoT and gives you a new 6 second buff i did this and got the duration too 34 seconds with 6 seconds on the absorb however it refreshed the absorb at the 30 second mark when the absorb still had 2 seconds too go so this means reapplying SS gives you even more extra absorbs then the instant refresh you get casting it

Theck, I just want to thank you for all the work you put into this. I quit playing WoW about a year and a half ago. I started tanking on my Pally during TBC when we weren't considered real tanks. I wouldn't have had a clue what to do if it weren't for Maintankadin and people here like you. I would never have known about needing to become uncrushable for instance. I used your matlab results all through WotLK and the several months of Cata that I played. It really helped me to be a better tank when I knew exactly how all the different mechanics work.

I pop in from time to time to read the WoW discussions to see if anything wants to make me come back. Sometimes it does a little, but I'm just completely burnt out on MMOs at the moment. Hope all of y'all have fun during MoP.

Jaitee wrote:just did some testing in org and casting SS instantly reapplies the 6 second buff (and increases the duration of the original buff too 31-32 seconds) i tested it by casting SS waiting for the 6 second CD to end then recasting when the buff had 3 seconds left and it refreshed back to 6 seconds instantly also popping a strength trinket between refreshes made the new bubble stronger so its definitely a new bubble and not just the duration being refreshed will test it later on taking damage to ensure that it refills the absorb but at the moment it looks like filling every empty GCD with SS casts might be worthwhile and in some fights recasting it almost on cooldown (not negating our hopo based stuff of course) might be that little extra survival we need

also just noticed a bug with reapplying SS when reapplying it it extends the duration like a HoT or DoT and gives you a new 6 second buff i did this and got the duration too 34 seconds with 6 seconds on the absorb however it refreshed the absorb at the 30 second mark when the absorb still had 2 seconds too go so this means reapplying SS gives you even more extra absorbs then the instant refresh you get casting it

Ghostcrawler wrote:One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.

After consideration, we are a bit worried about paladin survivability as well. Shield of the Righteous, buffed by mastery, is a massive amount of mitigation, but the risk is that whenever paladins didn't have it available, they'd risk spike damage. (As an aside, it was also weird for paladins to suddenly be the spikey tank after years of being the opposite.) We're going to increase the Stamina benefit of Guarded by the Light from 15% to 25%.

One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.

Have you considered that using WoG each time you get 1 HP to fish for divine purpose proccs to use shotr might be viable? got the idea after getting 7 wogs in a row (6 divine proccs used on 1 initial HP). might be interesting to see if that method can bring higher ShotR uptime (less control, more rng tho) and be a viable playstyle. would probably end up in macros on buttons everywhere due to not being on gcd.

I can fool with it, but keep in mind that there was a blue post stating that 1- and 2-HP WoGs had a lower chance to proc Divine Purpose. To accurately model anything, we'd have to figure out what those chances are (i.e. if it's 25% at 3-HP, is it 15% at 2 and 5% at 1? Or is it 25*2/3 and 25/3?)

ok, missed that they claimed that, feels like the opposite tbh, atleast (small sample etcetc) feels like wog in general proccs more then shotr for me.

Purely mathematical it can be seen as a geometric series i guess. where a 25% (if that is the case even for 1hp) develops to1/(1-x) -1 = 33.33% proc per wog -> 1hp per wog. which would mean that we should get shotr as often as by not using this method, but also getting a 1hp wog all the time ontop of it (leading to approx 20% more hp generated compared to normal divine purpose usage). however, alot of but(t)s and if's could probably eat this theory. like, rng, and not being able to actually take advantage of each proc and without delaying hp-generator moves etc.

did some short time testing.and the proc chance does look rather weird.I did WoG on 1hp, and on proccs. (prob accidentally got a 2hp wog of once or twice)got 57 divine purpose procs (yes small sample only)at a total of 124 WoG'sprovided from 78 HP generator attacks.

which shows a mindblowingly high proc chance from WoG (even at 1hp) (if im not wrong that means 3.05hp from each holy power generator used). more testing, and where the procc is not used up by WoG is appropriate ofc. and again... yes small sample size is small..

the "lower chance if not 3 holy power" isn't implemented yet (as you can realise from such logs) but it's suppose to be on once mop hits, don't know how it works on the beta.as you can see from a close to 40% procc rate wow is currently bugged with divine purpose, although I havnt heard any response from blizzard confirming it.

Treck wrote:the "lower chance if not 3 holy power" isn't implemented yet (as you can realise from such logs) but it's suppose to be on once mop hits, don't know how it works on the beta.as you can see from a close to 40% procc rate wow is currently bugged with divine purpose, although I havnt heard any response from blizzard confirming it.

40% isn't necessarily bugged, the sample size is tiny. That's within the 95% confidence interval for a 33% proc rate.

I can assure you the WoG proccing is bugged, especially double proccing.His logs may be a little tiny, but do one with 1k and you will see that the procc is way higher than 25%.Some say its bugged due to the fact that WoG only costs one holypower, so when cast with 3 (or with Divine purpose procc) it gains multiple procc chances due to using more than its normal cost in Holypower, but if that would be the case, it doesnt scale with 25% per holypower, so seems off to me, so doesnt seem very likely.Not to mention that sample only used 1 holy power WoGs.But something is for sure up with WoG proccing.