black udder wrote:While Kallstrom's form works great for him, I don't know that it's one to emulate just because of how unique it is. I believe he shares many of the same form similarities of other throwers, but is too unique to want to copy. Blake had also mentioned that Barry Schultz was another one who shared points, but was not one to copy.

I agree. I've been too Barry like throwing in a mild downhill lately. Very long last step thanks to sluggish left leg push and the ground being lower than I'm used to. Combined with not bending my right knee enough sometimes.

Blake_T wrote:kallstrom has very different form to the jarvis's though... especially in that he pivots throughout the throw and his knee is bent. he also leans forward at the rip.

part of both his and the jarvis's lean backs are that they all throw quite high and you can't get way forward like you're throwing a 12' high laser when you are throwing a 50' high hyzer flip or flex shot.

I think that I see JR's point, there's a lot of potential for a lot of D with this kind lean-back pivot and powerful shift from linear to rotational acceleration. Both Kallstrom and the Jarvis's seem to do it really well and somewhat similarly. But from what I'm hearing on this thread, I can still get some substantial results by maintaining a more forward center of gravity (shorter step) as a modification to my current throw. Plus, it sounds like I'll have an easier time keeping the nose down, throwing lower shots, and staying away from OAT if I stay forward. All of these things are vital where I play, probably moreso than distance, because it's very windy most of the time.

In fact, I tried shortening my step and staying on the balls of my feet yesterday when I played a round and I set new personal distance records on three holes on my home course. I didn't have a single OAT throw, or nose-up throw, and I felt like I had command of the disc. In fact, I overthrew just about every drive, and my throws felt effortless. Sure put me in a good mood, since I've been struggling through technique changes for the last couple of months.

I think I'm going to stick to the suggested improvements on my current form, and probably try and chip away at generating some more late acceleration once I get more consistent. Not sure how to get it, but I'll search around when I'm ready I guess

dude - if you're throwing around 400' with a satisfactory amount of accuracy you're doing better than a huge percentage of players. If things are going well, I'd stick there for awhile. If you are thinking about going "pro", then maybe you want to add more than 400' of distance for some monster drives, but it sounds like you're getting into the 400's now, with the possibility of once you get comfortable with the recent adjustments of going around 450'.

If you try and adjust your form for increased acceleration you could face some inconsistency for awhile. I'd see if it's worth it for the distance you might get. Hell, people around here will tell you if you can throw 350' accurately, be happy.

black udder wrote:dude - if you're throwing around 400' with a satisfactory amount of accuracy you're doing better than a huge percentage of players. If things are going well, I'd stick there for awhile. If you are thinking about going "pro", then maybe you want to add more than 400' of distance for some monster drives, but it sounds like you're getting into the 400's now, with the possibility of once you get comfortable with the recent adjustments of going around 450'.

Well put. I'd be very happy just to get some consistency for a while, and I certainly have no aspirations of playing in tourneys or anything, I just want to play well enough to enjoy myself once or twice a week. The only reason I practice in the field is because it's close to my house and I don't often have time to play a round. I'd like to nail down the shorter step and a little more balance. I think working on that late acceleration will be my next project. This thread has given me plenty to think about, thanks to everyone who responded.

Well, it's been a while. I worked on shortening my stride due to the comments I received last time and I think I've accomplished it for the most part. Seems like I do much better with it on the course than I do in practice.

I haven't been able to get out and get some video outside, but I took someone's advice here and took some video with a dish towel in my basement. I'm throwing about an even split of 390' (bad throw) to 420' (good throw) with my Groove with good accuracy, and about 375-385' with my Teebird when I'm going for distance, 350' with repeatably and with relative ease. Anybody want to comment and help me fix some things? Most of the time I don't even know what areas need fixing, so I won't bias you with my feelings on what I need to do better.

You're ok already but there are still some major things to improve upon. One thing is pulling closer to the chest. Your arm wasn't moving in a straight line. You started the arm pull at full power almost immediately after starting the arm motion. Try to stay slow and loose with the arm muscles until four hand has passed the right pec completely. Your hips and above were doing a hyzer and it would be easier to achieve if you moved your plant step that is your left leg 5-7" to the left while planting. It tilts you better for the hyzer, keeps your torso closer to neutral allowing more power generation. Because the muscles aren't away from center position which is best for power generation. For keeping the nose down you should tilt forward at the waist more so that as the would be release point is reached your chin is over your left foot and heart over the left knee.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Been having knee pain for a while, and after capturing a little video, I suspect it's got to do with my newly developed lack of pivot. I don't know if it's the more controlled style I'm using or the dirt teepads I've been playing on almost exclusively, but the slower I throw, the less pivot I get. Sometimes I get no pivot, and I think it's torquing my knee. When I get good late acceleration, I have no choice but to pivot, but on shorter throws I run into trouble.

I've also noticed that most of the Pro's seem to pivot on their heels on big D throws. I can't for the life of me get comfortable pivoting on my heel, I've never been able to do it. Is it symptomatic of other problems, and how much does it matter?

Any advice on either of my issues would be greatly appreciated. The two videos I've posted are not distance throws, so take that for what it's worth.

Stand at your normal standing up stance without a disc in your hand. Raise to the balls of your feet. This is the positions and feeling you wanna get in the x step. The slower you throw the more you need to stand up to have less sole to ground contact. Your flat footedness is dangerous to your health to say the least.

Ball of foot or heel pivot doesn't matter to the health as long as there aren't underlying medical conditions as far as I know but if you have too little muscle power in the legs then either way may lead to aches with enough reps.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Really been experimenting the last week, here are some towel drill videos since I can't get outside.

I have been working on wrist extension, so I indicated in the bottom corner whether I got bad, better, or good towel snap. The first portion of the video is a set of bad to good snap videos with slow late acceleration. The second portion of the video is set of bad to good snap videos where I'm focusing on getting better late acceleration. The final portion of the video is recorded from the front. Most of these throws are 100% power with a low pull and some hyzer, I haven't figured out how to integrate some of my changes into a flat or anny throw yet, or into an 80% power throw.

I went out Friday and threw looong and finally got the feel of slinging the disc (it's been what, 3 years of work to finally get that feeling?) I was excited, especially because I was getting serious distance and because it was such a new feeling. I had a much harder time translating it to the course the next day, I was really having a hard time throwing flat, I suspect that my wrist is not staying nose down during extension.

Any comments would be welcome, I feel like my form is in limbo right now with all of the expirementation I'm doing trying to get better extension and late acceleration. Some of my questions:

I'm not really sure why I get snap sometimes and not others, and the same goes for late acceleration. I have my suspicions...

I would really love to gain accuracy, not necessarily distance. How do the pros aim?Is it reasonable to expect to be able to aim at full power?Are you supposed to aim with the 1-inch punch during the uncoiling of the wrist? It all happens so fast...

You have to have snap at least half hitting kind before you start to feel some sort of weight of the disc with which you can aim so late in the throw. It need not be the only aiming method. The motion of every moving part to the same direction and visual aiming certainly helps me YMMV. Nice pop on the towel on the good tries. People say that when they snap hard aiming gets better and it is like magic so you should expect to aim at full power. That works to some extent even when half hitting.

To me it seems that in the snapped towel drills your shoulder socket moves faster and with more motion range than with the bad attempts where you turn the whole body earlier to the follow through. On the bad shots you tend to not turn the shoulders and hips much more than going to neutral and staying there until the pop has happened. OTOH Avery doesn't turn his shoulder line a lot right of neutral at the hit but see how hard and far to the follow through the arm moves from his shoulder joint.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Thanks for the reply JR, you have always been helpful in critiquing my form. I think you are probably right about a change in my rotation. On a good throw, I focus on staying closed a little longer as I transition from my reach back until I can get the disc closer to my body. This seems to provide better acceleration in my hips and shoulders once everything starts to open up. I think it might also allow me to get my elbow forward and bent more. On a bad throw, I tend to start turning forward too early, while the disc is still too far away from me and not forward enough. I'm realizing as I'm writing this that I do this because I panic when pulling too close that I won't be able to get my head around and aim. Gotta fight that urge...

Had major success yesterday aiming the disc out on the course on my 80% power and less throws, I could feel the disc pulling my wrist in and was able fling it out with accuracy and distance. Still working out how much resistance is good, but it seemed like if I stiffened my wrist as it started coiling in I got a stronger and more accurate fling. The good thing was that I could feel all of it, which means I can work on it. Didn't have enough awareness to actually point my thumb, but I could see that actually being possible. Best part is that I was able to maintain my D with less of a run up.

I still had to rely more on body positioning for my full run up, I have work to do to get integrate this feeling at full speed.

It sounds that you are farther along the road on the feeling of the things than i am. I have difficulty in the tensioning up the wrist without tensioning up the whole forearm too early. If i grip the disc with the bead in the outermost joint of the middle finger and the index finger with a two finger grip i have enough acceleration and muscle looseness to feel the disc leave the palm and pivot the earliest part of the pivot but i can't make the disc pivot around the tips of the fingers. As proved by video I also have trouble stopping my wrist and i'm not that great at actively opening up my wrist. I've tried to throw tall putters to 160' from standstills even to try to get it right but i think Blake mentioned in one of the comments to the stick men videos provided here lately that you don't want to go too far to the right of neutral with the wrist. Unlike Marty Peters shows in the Discraft video Getting More Distance Now.

I tried to delay the leg, hip and shoulder rotation yesterday and concentrate only on the arm whip around the shoulder socket. It was easy for me to do and a later way to turn my body around than i've usually had. It was the first time ever for me when a full force throw with a Roc did not flip. And it went farther than usual. Not all discs flew farther. I had odd results with Flows and Beasts acting more LSS and contrasting that surprisingly good D out of King, Z and X Nuke.

I'm thinking that maybe the later leg pivot, hip twist (measly on fast run ups for me compared to sneaking power control drives) and shoulder turn could have improved my timing so that each of those concentrates the top power generating action closer in time to the hit so that overall power increase may have occurred for me at the time of the hit. Only if i could make it work for me by getting the full pivot of the disc around the tips of the index finger and the thumb. I need to work on that and use flat thin putters to see how i could make my wrist and the fingers work better for a full pivot. I'm not sure if that is all to what Blake calls full hitting it. Somehow optimizing my previously described issues with the wrist could also rectify possible other problems such as timing.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Have you tried starting your reach back further away from your body? Not further back towards the back of the tee pad, but further out in the direction your body is facing, so that when you start your pull you are coming at something like a 25-45 degree angle into your chest? Pulling the disc into your body like that should exaggerate the collapse of the wrist and allow you to get a better feel of what you should be looking for when you go to a more straight-line reach back.

I think I was actually doing this on the course yesterday on my no-step and one-step throws, it has the added advantage of allowing you to be more forward facing while you're throwing. I don't know if it's fundamentally sound compared to a more straight-line pull.