(‘The Mazz’ making sure things don’t get started before the bell Saturday night.)

With all the talk of how the judges scored last weekend’s UFC 143 main event between Carlos Condit and Nick Diaz, CagePotato thought it would be interesting to shift the focus and speak with the man charged with mediating the fight – referee Steve Mazzagatti. In this exclusive conversation, the veteran top ref and occasional owner of one of the best mustaches in all of MMA, talks about Dana White’s hate for him, bitch slaps, shit talking and much more.

Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit have had some intense staredowns before. When you know you’ve got to bring two guys like that together moments before they fight for final instructions, how do you approach it? Do you ready for yourself for any extracurricular activities between them, so to speak?

No, you know they are both very intense fighters. That’s what it is all about. It was a great stare down and those are part of the sport. Both guys are extremely fair fighters as well. I don’t think I’d ever seen them break one rule. Plus, they are not stupid. They were not going to push each other and all that. They didn’t ‘hook ‘em up,’ like I say to do. But they hooked you guys up [with a great fight] and that’s what it is all about. When I say, ‘hook ‘em up,’ it’s not just not just about touching gloves, it’s about those guys hooking it up in the fight and hooking up the fans with a great bout.

In the UFC 143 main event, we saw more slaps. Nick Diaz slapped Carlos Condit at least once with an open hand. What is the deal with slaps? We’ve seen fighters warned by referees about having their hands open during fights to prevent against eye pokes. But at the same time, a guy like Diaz or Fabricio Werdum back in his fight with Andrei Arlovski, have gotten away with slapping their opponents. Is it against the rules to slap your opponent in MMA or not?

Absolutely not; slapping is perfectly legal. We’ve seen it a lot. We’ve had some fighters slap the ears of their opponent while in full mount. Bas Rutten was a huge palm striker. MMA is an open-hand sport. What we are concerned about is fighters leading with their fingertips. That’s what Herb [Dean] was doing [in the UFC 143 bout between Josh Koscheck and Mike Pierce]. And exactly what he realized could have happened, did happen. It is just part of the sport. I’ve dealt with a lot of situations where guys got poked in the eye. I called a fight against Anthony Johnson for it [at UFC Fight Night 14 in 2008). In fact, had we had the ability to look at instant replay at that time, my call would have been overthrown. But in large part because of that fight, now we have instant replay in state of Nevada. It does help in those types of situations. Right call bad call.

So pokes to the eye are bound to happen. Obviously, a fist knuckle to the eye is legal – that can happen with a punch. But we have to be able to judge if it was a finger in the eye or a knuckle. I can understand why guys keep their hands open – they want to parry punches out of the way. What we are trying to keep from happening is them leading with the finger tips. The same thing can happen with heads. We see it in boxing all the time, where fighters lead with their heads and head butts happen. It’s not allowed and its called that — leading.

In other sports, like football and basketball, there are now all sorts of rules about so-called taunting and the like. One of the most interesting things about a Nick Diaz fight is how he talks trash to his opponent while they are fighting. What are the rules under unified MMA rules and did you during the UFC 143 main event or have you ever come close to penalizing fighters for any type of talking during a fight?

The rule states that fighters are not allowed to use foul language. That’s where I would use a warning. Fights are chess matches. These guys are trying to take each other out of their respective games and there’s a lot of talking that go on, not just with Nick Diaz. Believe me these guys have interesting conversations on the ground. I’ve seen and heard a guy get tagged hard by an elbow while on the bottom and tell his opponent, ‘that was awesome!’ I’ve also had guys say they were sorry to their opponent after hitting them with a big shot. I’ve seen guys apologize for putting a whooping on a dude (laughs) So these guys talk a lot and it’s just part of the game. Sometimes, like with Diaz, they want to get under each other’s skins.

That’s really interesting. But you said the rule states that no foul language is allowed by the competitors. Are you saying that Nick Diaz didn’t use any foul language with Carlos Condit at UFC 143?

(Laughs) I’m not going to say that. I didn’t feel there was any reason to intercede there. Everything that happened was part of the sport. He wasn’t foul.

Did Carlos Condit say anything back or was it just Diaz talking?

They had their ‘lil conversations.

As a referee, you’ve got so many things that you’ve got to be paying close attention to. Through all that, do you still develop a sense, or I should say, opinion, on who is winning or who has won, when it goes to a decision?

No, not at all. When I see the stuff go down, I can just appreciate all that goes into them being able to do what they do.

There are rules against timidity in MMA, correct? Fighters have to engage with one another. In the UFC 143 main event between Condit and Diaz, we had an interesting situation where, on the one hand, Condit literally turned his back to Diaz and ran away from him on multiple occasions. But on the other hand, he landed many strikes each round — enough to win the fight, in fact. Did it cross your mind at all, at least the first couple times you saw Condit turn his back and run away from Diaz, that you might need to tell him something or get involved in some way?

No, not at all. It never even crossed my mind. At worst, he was tactfully timid. Like you said, Condit landed a ton of shots, even though he was being elusive. We have lots of fighters that use that style. It’s a part of the evolution of the sport of MMA.

Not to harp on Diaz as if he is a ticking timebomb, but given that he’s been involved in at least one post-fight, in-ring brawl, were you preparing yourself in any way for one guy or team reacting poorly to the decision after it was announced and any ruckus breaking out? Expecting at the end, if any guy reacted poorly to decision?

I can’t say that I didn’t think about it, but I wasn’t worried about it at all. You’ve got to go with the flow in there. When you start thinking that certain things are going to happen you get caught off guard. Anything can happen at any time. You might get assigned a fight with two wrestlers and expect it to be a grappling battle and then they end up striking on their feet the whole bout.

With Condit and Diaz, as soon as the final bell rang, I could tell that they had emptied their cups. Very seldom does that sort of thing — an after fight scuffle, ever happen. MMA is an extremely respectful sport.

This isn’t a new topic but UFC President Dana White has been publicly critical of you in the past. How does it feel to know that the people who matter to you — your actual bosses, have enough confidence to still put you in charge of important fights like the UFC 143 main event, despite the protests of an influential person like Dana White?

We don’t work for the promoters; we work for the state in which the event is being held. I can understand his feelings. He’s got outcomes he wants to see. He’s a promoter. It’s just the way it goes. I’m in there to enforce the rules. I do that the best I can. Do we like actually enforcing the rules? No, we hate it. It throws a wrench in to the whole game. No one wants to see the referee get involved. I don’t want to stand fighters up; I don’t want to break them off cage. All I want to do is tell them to start and stop, and that’s exactly what happened in the Condit and Diaz fight. If every fight was like that I’d be extremely happy. Unfortunately, referees are not there to be liked. We are there to enforce rules, and when is that ever going to popular?

Condit won, BUT the way he won was highly suspect and bitch-move-y. I mean dude said "This is going to be a dog-fight, but he came in and ran circle after circle after circle........All I'm saying is: If you think you can whoop someone's ass in a "dogfight", then come out and show us what you got! Not what you can do when you get swung on?

MMAposeur- February 9, 2012 at 7:46 am

XENO, how much money did you lose on Diaz? I already know you're too self-deluded to ever objectively see what was going on in the fight so I'm not even going to try to point it out to you.

hitekredneck- February 9, 2012 at 3:29 am

I'm not too sure i like the replay thang, guys....seems to me that's going to get fights stopped for a while to review the tape a lot like football....i can handle bad calls and judgements because to be honest, they don't make all that many...

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 3:03 pm

MMAposeur Says - you say 150% more strikes. Are you sure, if so how do you rate strikes thrown while moving backwards on your heels?

fightfan- February 8, 2012 at 2:44 pm

So just what I thought......

Maz calls fouls when he feels like or when he sees them. Or sometimes he IMMEDIATELY takes points away for back of head strikes, and otehr times he give fighters 5,6, even 8 or more warnings without no penalty.

Its good to see that he KNEW Diaz was committing a fou, and did NOTHING about it.

MMAposeur- February 8, 2012 at 11:58 am

P.S. enjoyed Mazzagatti's take on it all, despite the butt-hurt interviewer. Almost good stuff CP.

MMAposeur- February 8, 2012 at 11:45 am

I have to disagree. The only thing he did in that one minute was put himself in a worse position by the end of it, how is that worth anything, much less worth more than outstriking your opponent by 150%? If he had inflicted damage or came close to a sub, sure, if the round was otherwise equal, of course, but Condit brushed off his armbar like it was nothing, the RNC wasn't even close, and Condit summarily rolled out on top after having outstruck him by near double. How did Diaz earn anything there?

Diaz did more in that one minute then Carlos did in the four minutes Prior.

MMAposeur- February 8, 2012 at 11:08 am

Rd 1 was razor thin, I could see that going either way. And if you consider "aggression" more valuable then "effective striking", I could see Rd 3 being called close. In all honesty I thought Diaz was gonna get the decision, because judges... well... Cecil Peoples. But how can anyone convince themself Diaz won 5? He dragged him down yes, but failed to do anything with it and ended up getting reversed, another 10 seconds and he woulda been TKO. I'm excited for the re-match, although I think it's a shit deal for Condit.

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 10:30 am

@Karma - disagree then, and state why?
@ KID Dinomite - I thought he came across as intelligent too. LOL on the deaf guy thing. What do you think he would do with that one armed MMA phenom Nick Newell. Ask him to tap with his left hand? GRIN

macreadysshack- February 8, 2012 at 9:56 am

Condit fought a smart fight. I thought it was entertaining as hell - like a bullfight or something but, hey, I'm an actual Mixed Martial Artist who appreciates even tactical/technical aspects of the game, not some Bud Light can crushing cro-magnon that insists on seeing two guys stand in front of each other until somebody's lights go out. So, that's just my perspective.
*
Mazagatti seems like a really intelligent and thoughtful ref. He certainly has the 'right' attitude. Great interview!

KidDinomite- February 8, 2012 at 9:50 am

Hurm.... Mazagatti comes off as pretty damn intelligent. I'll give him props but he needs some one on one with Herb Dean and John McCarthy if he wants to improve his reffing in real time. You don't straight ask a deaf dude if he can continue.

I sure as hell hope someone advises Dirtweed Diaz to double step forward at a faster pace when Condit starts his dignified retreats again. Nobody can run that fast going backwards for 5 rounds without tripping over his shoelaces.

ArmFarmer- February 8, 2012 at 8:55 am

@karma Only thing is his takedowns leave a lot to be desired. His "lean over and grab" version of a shot is pretty weak. That said he did manage to get Condit to the ground, so if he focuses more on getting him down I'm sure he can do it eventually. Once it hits the ground, that's where he really shines.

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 8:21 am

KarmaAteMyCat - only reason Rogan publically changed his mind on the fight was because of the amount of people who saw it a draw or bad judging. His retraction was a business decision, and likely aimed at recapturing the million dollar Diaz. Diaz straight out clowned Rogan and the UFC, when he said he was there to fight, among other things, and that he was done with the games. The play is now with Condit, as he is surely now feeling the pressure to distance himself from the Running Coward, jokes. I wonder what Greg Jackson is telling Condit about right now. Likely the smart thing, "...don't worry about what others say kid, you won and its because of me! If you get in over your head again and can't run, we will be sure to grease you up real good so that you wont get submitted when you give up your back again."

Shifty-Eyed Dog- February 8, 2012 at 8:19 am

Mad? no. Just sick of a guy who cant accept a decision loss. He needs to go back to the end of the line and get some more wins before he gets a rematch.

This rematch is nothing but the UFC wanting their GSP/Diaz match, so they're giving him a second chance. I hope Condit got a giant offer to accept this rematch, because he's getting screwed (again), especially if he loses the rematch and never gets the GSP match.

Elias- February 8, 2012 at 8:07 am

haha, shifty-eyed. you mad, brah? I'm a Diaz nuthugger who just wrote about GSP needing to be stripped so that Condit can get the recognition, money etc. that he deserves...

@ArmFarmer; I think the Rematch will have plenty of that I think Nicks Grappling as a whole is on a different level then most if not 99% of the welterweights in the world. I think Nick has better hands to but got caught up in Condit's game, I'll not comment here nor there other then saying Joe Rogan himself changed his opinion saying that he felt after re watching the fight that Nick won 1,2,5 noting that round three was Razor close and could have gone either way. So yes I as well would love to see this rematch.

Shifty-Eyed Dog- February 8, 2012 at 7:51 am

Way to inject your personal opinions into a question/interview. Condit in no way was in danger of being punished. He wasn't even being "timid". He was avoiding just standing in front of a guy who wanted a street fight.

You Diaz nuthuggers are pathetic. Especially the ones posing as "journalists".

Elias- February 8, 2012 at 7:49 am

lol @"fake pic with the clean shaven Mazzagatti trick."

randec- February 8, 2012 at 7:41 am

I like the caption " The Mazz making sure things don't get started before the bell last Saturday Night, The Natural Born Coward making sure things don't get started after"

jfjjfjff- February 8, 2012 at 7:39 am

http://i.imgur.com/hgMa2.jpg

jfjjfjff- February 8, 2012 at 7:31 am

"When I say, ‘hook ‘em up,’ it’s not just not just about touching gloves, it’s about those guys hooking it up in the fight and hooking up the fans with a great bout."
lol, how cheesy.

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 7:26 am

I just looked up Drano's name on Cheaterville.com - Said she gives great head, but doesn't like it in her hair. FROWN

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 7:25 am

@Elias Cepeda - quit apologizing god dammit. I saw the best mustachios comment, and the fake pic with the clean shaven Mazzagatti trick. At least Jonesy doesn't back down, I give that little spunk shot that much credit. Now, that said. A much superior interview that what happened to that blonde chick named Kim. Also a side note, I'd be curious if the next time you interview the refs, ask them about the judges..specifically why not change the rules to get rid of the judges and use a better way to score fights, based on stoppages, draws, and point deductions. I am asking you, cause these other fuckers your working for always take the opposite views of what I say. Proof, still no Edit Button, and now the spacing between sentences/paragraphs is no longer allowed. Talk about fucked up - Just like that fucked up asshole CTO at Break Media pulling the strings. Fucking New Yorkers and Canadians. They will fuck up a wet dream every time! GRIN

I'd like to "hear" all these guys when they say "so sorry", "hit me again" or "that's right I am beating your ass fucker" in real time. If the UFC want's to take the lead in something new, they must get better audio from inside the ring. If cops can detect gunshots in neighborhoods with parabolic antenna's then why can't the UFC do the same for fans. Its one half of the entire fight - getting under the other guys skin, and fucking with his head.

ArmFarmer- February 8, 2012 at 7:08 am

btw, Mazaggatti just lost all credibility with this interview. He said Nick Diaz isn't stupid!

knucklesamitch- February 8, 2012 at 7:04 am

A rematch of Diaz/Condit just so Diaz can win seems like a Strikeforce kind of move.

XENOPHON- February 8, 2012 at 7:00 am

So the 209 bitch slap is legal. Good attention getter from a opponent who doesn't or refuses to engage. Take note Condit. Even the ref doesn't mind having instant replay...and why not if the commentators can be told by Zuffa management to use it inbetween rounds, why not have it all the time. Refs can wear a mic and be told if they missed something.

Elias- February 8, 2012 at 6:57 am

@KeithHackney...

I'm here to stir up controversy, my friend. Just as suggesting GSP be stripped of his title yesterday, I knew that the mustache remark would make some angry, but I believe both with all my heart

darkstarrocketship- February 8, 2012 at 6:57 am

@Buffalo Ben: Put up or shut up. Functionally speaking, I could make you better website than this in 15 - 20 mins. Graphically speaking, I could make you a better website than this in three to four hours. I come here for the unrestricted wit.

ArmFarmer- February 8, 2012 at 6:50 am

I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I'd love to see a rematch. I'm curious to see if either of them change their game plans up. I think Nick would have been smart to put Condit on the ground in the first 3 rounds where he probably has an advantage and time to work with it. Hopefully he'd at least not walk into his punches and kicks for 5 rounds...

Mike Russell- February 8, 2012 at 6:49 am

Send your resume to tips@cagepotato.com, Buffalo Ben. We'd love to see what you have to offer. Somebody is on the article. FYI, Diaz hasn't decided on the fight yet, so at this point it's just being discussed. Cesar Gracie said on Twitter that Nick isn't sure that he wants it.

darkstarrocketship- February 8, 2012 at 6:46 am

Interesting. Much respect for Mazzagatti after hearing his point of view. He has a decent understanding of combat.

Buffalo Ben- February 8, 2012 at 6:39 am

How about you guys write an article about dana tweeting that Condit agreed to a rematch?

This used to be my favorite mma website but more and more i feel like i could do what you guys do.

KeithHackneyWindmillPalmStrike- February 8, 2012 at 6:39 am

Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa!!!! I just read the first three lines of this and I'm pretty sure Dan Severn and Don Frye would be infuriated with your reckless claim that Mazzagatti has the best mustache in MMA!....Don't just throw that title around like it means nothing...reading it again, it says 'one of the best'....I wouldn't even give it that...