Thursday, November 12, 2009

Try to be honest -- what are your initial thoughts and feelings when you watch the first minute or so of this video?

Now try this one, of a white girl dancing to African (anyone know the particular country?) music. Try to be honest -- are your thoughts and feelings any different about this one?

No need to mention fears you might've had about the first child falling off the table -- that's too obvious, and maybe even derailing.

h/t to Kit, who has a great post about the first video at Keep It Trill. Good comments there also; the racially marked contrast in the comments at YouTube for these two videos is instructive too.

At Kit's place, where a commenter named soul linked to the second video above, I wrote the following in a comment:

I'm a white American, and that means that I'm trained to see white and black people differently. More to the point, I've been unconsciously trained to trust unfamiliar white people and fear unfamiliar black people. So as I watched this video, I eventually got around to seeing it as the innocent, harmless fun that you see it as.

But, I'm willing to admit that it took awhile for me to see it that way. I think I did see blackness first, and heard "that" music, and saw "that" kind of dancing. And so, at first, certain feelings were triggered -- associations, ones that I've been taught to feel when I encounter poor, urban, and thus supposedly dangerous black people. I'm still more likely to have words like "thug" come to mind with black people in such a situation, words that don't come to mind when I encounter white people basically doing the same damn things.

However, I think I have come to recognize, with a lot of hard, "anti-racist" work on myself, that 1) while those trained, unwarranted, and racist feelings are deeply embedded in me, and they're still going to kick in sometimes, 2) I can push past those feelings, and look more realistically at the human beings in front of me. And so, after a minute or so, I was watching this baby dancing and just having fun, and I was soon thinking, well, cool, that DOES look like simple, innocent fun. (And yes Kit, I think this particular white male did feel some jealousy too -- I wish my suburban middle-class family had been able to relax enough to have what looks like joyous, full-bodied fun -- we never danced together, at all.) (And no, I don't think now that all black people dance better and all that, etc.)

I also really appreciate soul's comparison of the other video, which I've seen before. And yes, none of those feelings about "thugs" or corruption of this young child came to mind when I watch that video, and that has everything to do with that girl's whiteness.

I'm glad that I can now see these two videos as basically the same, wonderful thing, even though I've been trained not to.

The comments on the original videos illustrate that its just a testament to the fact that if it's done by a "white" person it's cute or "good dancing," and when its done by a black person it's ghetto, overtly sexual and unladylike. Sighs...It's sad that there is almost no place on earth I can go to escape this shit and not have to rid myself of the soul selling materialism I've become so accustomed.

For the first video, my viseral reaction was: "Those parents are shameless - exposing a child, a baby!, to such vulgar and misogynistic media. That child is going to grow up with terrible values."

For the second one I thought: "OMG, she's practically in blackface. Okay maybe not blackface but OMG the cultural appropriation, right?. And holy crap, did that young girl just rub her prepubescent breasts? And her mother is encouraging this?"

In truth, I was much more disturbed by the first one (black people being vulgar, as I have been trained to think) than the second one (white people being racist.) The misogyny I perceive in both still bothers me. I'm pretty sure that I'll never see either as innocent fun.

Cultural appropriation is a topic I'm planning to do some more reading about because I often get confused about what is celebratory and what is mocking/demeaning/dehumanizing. To me, this little girl just seems to be "trying on" something "from Africa," something that can be discarded as she sees fit.

Also, I googled "stanky leg" (because I'm clueless) and read the entries from the urban dictionary. I was not amused.

I was just disappointed by the idea that that child was dancing to a song as shitty as Stanky Leg. I mean damn, there's so much GOOD music in the world, do we really need little kids listening to crappy songs the number of times that would be required for them to learn the whole dance?

Still pretty damn cute though. But I wish it was a better song. And I wish the kid had been on a floor rather than the table.

...Really though, there's so much better hip-hop out there! (Okay, I hate that song. And I hate it despite the fact that my girls We Are Heroes performed to that song on the last season of America's Best Dance Crew. There is NOTHING that could make that song good.)

I really dislike rap* (the music in the second one annoyed me slightly, but is of a type I can more easily tune out), so I managed to watch less of the first video because I don't want to listen to the music. But I have zero interested in watching videos of little kids dancing. I'm glad they're having fun, but I don't care.

I take your point, though.

*And metal, and especially industrial, largely for similar reasons--they all sound discordant and harsh to my ear.

To be honest I was thinking 'these kids dance better than I do!' but I am black and I did look at race and think 'wow, a white person is going to look at that brown baby and shake their head.' I also think a lot of black people would watch that video and and be ashamed by the baby with no clothes on and the family encouraging the dancing seeing it as ghetto or improper parenting. Honestly both kids are cute but my perception is always tainted by knowing how ignorant people will react.

(I put this on the KIT post, but wanted to comment here, since I found that post here.)

My first reaction was that I thought the video was adorable and I was amazed at the baby's skill. I drafted an email to send the link to my boyfriend with the commentary "This baby is a much better dancer than I." Then I wondered why this was a racial litmus test. So I kept reading. I honestly didn't consider AT ALL what this child's future will entail...so I went to the comments on the YouTube page, and then I felt like vomiting. And sending the link doesn't seem as fun anymore. Although, insofar as its use in showcasing racial prejudice and hatred, it's invaluable - as [are these] post[s]. As a white person I also must confront the way I draw conclusions about others based on race, but in moments like these I feel - being white, and surrounded by a generally Liberal group - sheltered from reality - in a bad way.

When watching the first video I grinned at the little baby dancing for the first few seconds, then I paid attention to what the baby was dancing to (what is stanky leg??) and then I immedietly went into yuck mode.

When watching the second video I thought "wow, she can move!" The music didn't bother me so much because it's very similar to the music my cousins listen to in Panama. However, I was a little thrown that such a small child was moving in such a sexual manner.

Actually, both kids were dancing in ways that were sexual. They both made me feel like yuck in the end.

Actually, the kid in the first video looks computer generated to me, lol. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing babies/toddlers that I actually find cute. Or that make those kind of cute/"adult" (what I associate with the experienced muscles of an adult, but I will say I honestly do not see young children on a regular basis to know any different) facial expressions. Honestly, I couldn't get past that, lol.

In the second video I was actually very impressed by her rhythm and flow. At least for her age and from what I can assume is a lack of training it seems pretty good to me. She could probably be a bitchin' dancer one day. Maybe we'll see her on America's Best Dance Crew one day. :P

I guess I'm so used to seeing "African" (though I think someone mentioned it is actually Brazilian) influence in music and hip hop music and especially seeing videos of younger children dancing to it that I felt no real reaction. Just kinda same old same old.

And maybe I'm a terrible person who should never have children but the first child being on the table as dangerous never crossed my mind. She seemed pretty stable to me which may have also been a reason it looked fake to me, lol, never seen a toddler with such stability. :x

Trouble is, most whites, either racist or supposedly non/post racist, aren't willing to dive as deeply into themeselves as you're asking them to. They stay on the surface of habit instead. Maybe posts like yours and Kit's will help some of them, though. I certainly appreciate it.

I thought they were both really good dancers, and I thought they were both having a lot of fun--more so in the first one where it was clear that other family members were either dancing, too, or cheering the dancers on.

I felt somewhat uncomfortable watching the first one, though, because I felt like I was intruding on a private family moment. I feel protective of the child and sorry that the video is publicly available. It's the sort of video (I have a child about the same age) that I can imagine sharing with friends and family but not posting somewhere where the whole world could see it. I don't feel the same way about the second one because the girl is clearly performing for the camera, and looks old enough to have some awareness that the video will be shown to other people. If I was her mother, would I put the video online? No way. but I don't feel as protective of her as I do of the little boy. (Perhaps part of it also is that she is fully dressed and he isn't...)

I find it interesting that people are commenting on the lack of clothes on the baby - I didn't even think anything of that, because my own two kids (5 years old, and 18 months) are so rarely dressed while inside the house. To me that's just the natural state of toddlers and young children. :) Maybe my kids just hate clothes more than the average child though.

I'll be honest, I didn't watch much of the second one because the girl just wasn't a good enough dancer to keep my attention. (I didn't make it all the way through the first video, because the song blows so much, but I did make it a lot farther.)

Maybe it's just because I love the Jabbawockeez, but the two-year-kid doing a Jabba routine is way more fun to watch IMO. (And I find it hysterical how sad he is when the song ends at 2:09.) Also since that kid's Asian, maybe a more analogous video to the Stanky Leg baby would be the bellydancing baby, since that kid's white and also a toddler dressed solely in a diaper.

What jumps out to me is that the first child belongs to a family that has a serious interest in dancing. That baby has learned some moves and really works it with the music.

The girl in the secon video is very expressive, but it looks more like she is just making up her moves, perhaps based on things she has observed. But I don't get the sense that other family members have danced with her, as I do for the first one.

I really like the idea of families sharing music and dancing together as part of their time together. It's not the music I would choose, but it's cool to be able to do something that is energetic and physical without having to make it competitive. It's great energy.

I have to say, I'm really surprised by a lot of the reactions to these videos.

The baby dancing is adorable! To have issues with that fact that they are dancing on a table or that they have only diaper or socks on never occurred to me. The only person who I felt similarly to was the one who mentioned that it seemed like the baby was CGI-ed. The expressions on hir (not sure if the child was male or female so I'm going to use un-gendered pronouns) face and some of the movements ze made were so grown up! That child seems developmentally gifted, to me. And adorable.

The only thing that bothered me a little bit was when it appeared that the baby was trying to do that butt-shaking move (but couldn't, which made me laugh). That's just my prudish sexually repressed white suburban norms coming out, anything to do with shaking butt or boobs is coded as sexual which was odd to see a baby attempt. Certainly that's a bit racially coded as well, I suppose. And that's the only instance of discomfort I felt in the video.

The second, well, she can move too! Very impressed. I was especially surprised here with the talk of cultural appropriation. The music she had playing, first of all, could come from any number of countries which are racially mixed, someone mentioned Brazil, and another France. Which were two that came to my mind as well. To me, it just sounded like club music, and perfectly fine to dance to, even if she is blonde and white-skinned. Without a bit more info, the accusation of cultural appropriation is a bit US-centric.

Wel, my first thought was, oh gosh, heres something racial Im not gonna like because this is a site dedicated to racial criticism. I'm suppose to find the black kid offensive shomehow and the white kid shameless ( or something to that effect).

her falling off never once accured to me, it didnt seem like she was unsure of herself at all. Heck, maybe its because I dont have kids, or because the baby wasnt dancing all over the place like the white kid.

Though , now I understand what ppl are talking about when they say music has an effect on kids. The baby was getting down to the lyrics!!! The lyrics.

My answers may be biased given that I visit Youtube twice a year...by request. It's just not my thing. I don't enjoy watching people (adults OR kids) dance on video. At all. I couldn't force myself beyond the first 20 seconds of each.

#1 - as a mom, all I saw was the hazard of a wobbly baby in socks dancing on a slippery table. Sorry. Let's not discuss that though.

#2 like [eam] all I saw was a little show-off. Just like I used to be. I used to live for someone to watch me put on a show. I didn't dance QUITE like that as a kid (certainly as an adult) and Youtube wasn't around in the 80s for my mom to exploit me or feed my ego on.

I don't allow my kids to upload their videos if they even remotely show their faces let alone have ME show them off to the world. Unlike the many oblivious parents out there - I know who lurks on the other side of the internet.

I just could NOT drop the mom angle here. I thought I could, but I couldn't. I don't want to derail and I highly doubt anyone wants to respond to my comment, don't. Or go to my blog and do it.

White girl here, and thinking that the second one is "cultural appropriation." The first one I was just wondering if they house could be neater, and the kid in something other than just a diaper.

While watching both together, I thought to myself about how people might see that differently if the two kids were switched. What about a chubby white male toddler, in just a diaper the exact same age dancing to the exact same music, on the exact same table, and a skinny black female dressed in the exact same clothing, dancing to the same song in the exact same place.

I think in this case, the songs chosen, age of the child, and place where they are dancing says much more than just race.

Both of these are highly inapropriate and far too sexual. I felt very uncomfortable watching them. Why would you put videos of your kids like this on the internet?? I mean, that white girl is groping her breasts and crotch, wtf?

I watched both videos all the the way through - and thought both were cute. The first one, especially when the older male joined in with the dancing. It just looked like someone turned up the music and everyone joined in with the dancing. The second was cute as well - it reminded me of making up my own routines as a kid, although I was a little disturbed by the girl running her hands along her body. I know I did that as a kid, too, wanting to be all "sexy" and everything, but it certainly wasn't recorded so everyone could see!!! As for the baby, babies love to dance! They mimic us, they somehow come up with their "own" moves, and it's just cute to watch them! Maybe a less sexualized song would have evoked different responses?

i'm no expert, but i think the moves of the 2nd girl WERE based on authentic african forms of dance. if i'm not mistaken, she's moving different parts of her body in time to different beat sequences in the polyphony, while keeping the main rythym too. this is hard! she's either had training or has observed this kind of dance.

My reaction was from watching how they moved and where their energy was.

The first child was into his body as he moved, feeling the rhythm and movement. The second little girl seemed like she was up in her head, thinking about how to move.

Two different ways to approach dance, who's to say one is better or not? Thinkers and feelers approach everything they do in different ways. Not to say environment, family, culture, etc. do not have influences.

- The music is African. The style is Coupe Degale mostly from Ivory Coast. A quick google search would have clarified this, but real cultural appropriation doesn't allow for that and people will suggest to high heavens that it is anything but African

- It is not cultural appropriation for a white girl to partake in a dance style widely performed by black people. Please Karen L, be careful before you use terms you are unsure of or in ways which you are not clear on)

- The "hokey Pokey' is a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Sticking male genitalia in and out of female genitalia. go and google it and check out the meaning in the urban dictionary...are you amused?Do the white grandparents doing the hokey pokey with their 5 year old grandchildren really want to stick their genitals inside them?.Nope.When it comes to black people, it seems nothing can have different meanings to different people. Compare and contrast these 2 things.

- Your taste in music is irrelevant. It is understood that some seem to think their musical tastes somehow make them sophisticated and that is hogwash. It's music. Arrangement of drums, strings, pitch to form a melodious sound. If you don't hear the melody, mores the pity. It's amazing how actual classical musicians can site their influences to include, rap, rock, blues e.t.c. but the mere plebians who listen to what the inspiration has produced feel lofty about things which inspired the music they listen to. It's hilarious.

- a baby is at home, it is warm, why should it be wearing clothes? what's the point. Wearing clothes inside your house is optional for soo many reasons and it is also better to let the skin breathe.

- The little girl in the second video is not just dancing free style. The moves are copied from the actual video for the song and nope she is not that good. Her rhythm is slightly off, she flings her legs all over the place and her hip movement is off. But she is a child. She can learn if she wants to.

- Africans have a different rhythm. Most of the white people here talking about the dance being sexualised, the problem is squarely with you.You see sex in pretty much anything, it's what your forefathers did when they were colonials. when they banned Africans from dancing in their own cultures.We don't dance like you. Our traditional dancing is not about keeping people at arms length doing the waltz. We've been dancing like this for generations, we use our hips, our bodies, we bend our backs, into it. We are expressive with more than just our hands and our faces. Why do YOU over sexualise us.

You see sex and vulgarity in everything we do even when children our doing this. You have to start asking yourselves, why?.The pervesity is not with us. it is with you.

The worst thing about this, is you have used the institution of racism and colonial teaching to embed these very same thinking within us.

Things which you can't do naturally scare you. It's why the comments on youtube are in high praise for that little white girl. It's not just that she can somewhat dance, it is that she is able to 'dance like a black person'.That's the real thing here. It's that 'one of us, can do what they do' see. they aren't better than us at anything.

I'd say a whole lot more, but it's exhausting and really all it requires is for a few people to really do a bit more soul searching. - Soul

How on earth did I just find this blog. I completely agree with you. I feel that videos of non-blacks dancing "black" are significantly praised. Meanwhile those with blacks dancing "black" are viewed as hood dancing with comments such as "meanwhile at school...." "...weave flying off...." or some other stereotypical comment about blacks using welfare or another. I've seen videos of white girls twerking not so good, yet they are praised as being amazing yet if the girl were black everyone would diss her and say that she is a horrendous dancer.

My reaction was similar to chicken fox's. I thought, 'The title says white people like to watch dancing-kid videos, so I guess I'm supposed to find this offensive.' But after a few seconds I just thought, awwwrrr so cute. Though I did wonder if it was CGI because I've never seen a toddler dance so well. When I saw the man dance with the toddler, it made the whole thing even sweeter for me. Awwwrr, so it's a family thing! It added warmth because I realized the toddler wasn't just enjoying the dancing, but also the togetherness. The appearance of the man made it feel 'safe' - family friendly. And I'm not a mother, so the table issue didn't even occur to me since the baby looked stable. But I reminded myself that I'm supposed to find this a bit disturbing, so I did end up finding some moves a bit sexual and disturbing after awhile.

The second video - my first reaction was - sheesh, she is pretty damn good. I didn't see the breast holding part until after I read the comments. I'm not too disturbed by it since she doesn't actually have any breasts yet, and I can't see her touching her crotch either. And I remember Diego Luna in Havana Nights telling his American girlfriend that her dancing was too stiff and she was too uptight about it all. So there is a possibility that the culture where that dancing comes from doesn't see it as particularly sexualized.

But I don't understand why people are concerned about cultural appropriation. The girl is about 7 or so. She sees a dance. She likes it. Dances it. Enjoys it, or enjoys the attention she gets from it. End of story. I doubt she's thinking about which culture it comes from and all that. Why make a big deal out of it? Just chill, and let the kid enjoy herself. For all we know, she may have actually grown up in the country where people dance like that all the time. In that case, it's part of her culture too.

I agree with White Girl: "I think in this case, the songs chosen, age of the child, and place where they are dancing says much more than just race."

I'm trying to figure out if my reaction to the videos has to do with race, but I don't know. When I watched the first one, I just thought it looked like a crazy, irresponsible home video that should have stayed at home. (Thank god my family didn't have YouTube back in the day.) When I watched the first one, I thought the little girl probably is in a dance class and she is practicing at home - or maybe this is a submission piece for something?

Just because some white people some people see the sexual context doesn't mean all of us aren't just doing shake one leg because it's funny.

Can you already see how you are making a distinction for what is a white popular participation dance.

Someone jusitfied their disgust for the stanky leg based on the definition in the urban dictionary...Since that is their bastion of truth then they should have equal disgust at the 'hokey pokey'

And if we are to do that, then we are left with the fact that their is something pretty sick, disgusting, vile and vulgar about the way white people dance to sexually inappropriate music within the family unit, in public., at the office e.t.c.

You see, this is exactly the point. The judgement of thaty little black girl has absolutely nothing to do with 'the lyrics, the song or even what she is dancing to.

The fact is the very movement of that baby is enough to cause offense because she is black. A simple movement for her is viewed through a sexual prism by both white men and women.

Someone has already insulted the household as dirty.. how and where is the dirt. In all of these the books behind the baby are missed, because you readily see the negative in us.

To see an inch of positive, we have to go over and beyond or be spectacular. That is reality.

Once again, we do not dance like you, we have different body rhythm and movements.It is a quite sickening when some white people simply cannot help but see us an associate sex and vulgarity because it is in your heads not in our hearts.Many white people really need to deal with this issue, before pointing the figure at us.

Both videos were coded as "trashy" to my eyes, the first more than the second, and for different reasons.

The baby video seemed trashy because of the diaper-and-socks outfit, the relative messiness of the residence, the music style, and the dance style. I think the color of the baby's skin may have been another factor. All of these judgments are either classist or racist or both, and I'm ashamed of myself for thinking that way.

Also, due to a couple of personal quirks, the first video wasn't just trashy to me - it was grotesque. It really weirds me out to see babies moving in a coordinated way. There are commercials with dancing babies, and I HATE them. Intensely. Also the word "stanky" is truly unpleasant because it brings to mind piles of garbage, possibly smeared with feces. So put all that together, and the video just comes across as crass and horrible.

The second video seemed trashy because, well, I guess I've seen a few too many moral-panicky news stories featuring little white girls dancing sexily to Britney Spears, or Christina Aguilera, or whatever. My parents (one a minister, both Christian Conservatives) definitely would not have allowed me to dance that way when I was a kid, or associate with any child who did. Ass-shaking was really not okay in our household and to this day I consider myself "not much of a dancer" because it's hard for me to loosen up enough to move like that.

Intellectually speaking I am perfectly okay with the way both children were dancing, but it is worth noting that to actually feel that way is to go out of my comfort zone.

Also, to clear up some of the confusion regarding the little girl: her name is Elvyna. She's white and French. If you watch the interview with her, also available on Youtube, you'll see that she says the reason she likes African dance is that she saw black people dancing that way and liked it. She said that her mother has black friends and so does she. The music, according to the video description, is Ivorian, and Ivory Coast (or Cote d'Ivoire), is a former French colony. I imagine the girl's family is upper-middle-class and that the girl's mother considers herself very worldly and open-minded for encouraging her little blondinette to do sexy African dancing. Does that perhaps put a different spin on the cultural appropriation discussion?

"Décalé Gwada" is by a musician named Jessy Matador. He is from Congo.

The song is in the genre of Makossa, Mapouka, Zouk and local Dancehall. It is a type of music very popular in West Africa, especially in the Francophone countries.

I heard the mother say "Vas-y". Which is French for "go there". If they are French, it is very unserstandable that they would have exposure to French speaking(mixed with local slang and languages) West African music.

Loved the little kid in the first one! The expressions on her face were adorable and priceless. It was obviously a home movie, so I didn't have a problem with the diaper, although I did have that little stomach lurch a couple of times about her being on the table. (I don't think she was in real danger, it's just a protective mother thing. LOL)

Have to say, I don't really like the song either, but it was worth it just to see the joy on that kid's face, especially when her family member joined in. I don't really understand the controversy. I decided not to read the comments with the video because I want to remember it as a happy family moment, which is what it looked like to me.

The second one was just okay. A cute home video of a young girl dancing.

I don't agree that listening to or dancing to different styles of music is cultural appropriation. Why should we confine ourselves or others to listening, dancing with, and enjoying only those styles of music that we can personally claim as "our culture"? That sounds really ridiculous to me, and simply serves to push different cultures and races even further apart, in my opinion. It also seems to reinforce stereotypical ideas, like the idea that black people can't like classical or country music and white people can't really appreciate black gospel or rap music.

Life is too short to limit ourselves based on what others "think" we should or should not enjoy.

I didn't watch all of either video, but I thought both kids were cute. I didn't like the booty-popping(ish) dance the baby was doing, and I didn't see the breast/crotch-grabbing in the second one.

I don't think either video is better/worse than the other, but I don't think problems with the sexual nature of dancing are necessarily problems with other cultures. My problem with the sexual nature that I saw is that it's on tape for strangers to watch online (this applies to both videos even though I only have evidence from one). I'm also biased against kid dancing videos because not too long ago I saw one (I think it was from the DR) where little boys and girls were being encouraged to grind on each other, and at one point a grown woman took it upon herself to demonstrate on a little boy how it should be done. Neither of these videos even comes close to that, but I think videos of young kids dancing should stay private.

Lot of your points have been pretty helpful for me. I want to pick up on where you said: Why do YOU over sexualise us. You see sex and vulgarity in everything we do even when children our doing this.You have to start asking yourselves, why?.

For me, I think the WHY has everything to do with how white women have used our "brand(s)" of feminism at the expense of people of colour. I was pretty quick to scream "sexism!", right? It does say more about me than you. I'm projecting my rigid code of what is sexual movement onto black dancing, creating an illusion of sexuality.

See, I've staked my identity to the more privileged half of the f'd up madonna/whore complex that contributes to the dysfunction between white men and women. That privilege is so fragile because it's totally undeserved, and thus, even an illusion feels threatening. I feel a threat because I see (a self-created illusion of) sexuality being passed off as entertainment for white men. Not in these two videos but in the related mainstream media. Sex as entertainment feeds the madonna/whore complex that both privileges represses me. "Don't portray women as whores because that might make ME a whore, too."

Furthermore, there's just the jealously, namely: "Hey, black people seem to be comfortable with their bodies, movement, and sexuality. I can't even disentangle my own body, movement, and sexuality. I as a white person don't enjoy that privilege. I'm supposed to have all the privilege, GD it."

As for the lyrics, I think the above explains why I would choose to latch onto the sexual meaning of stanky leg.

on the idea of double-meanings: We liberal white people have been trained to reject things with double-meanings so that we can give ourselves a cookie for avoiding possible slurs without doing any thinking.

@soul...I agree with the you on the whole Europeans finding anything where someone moves their body in the slightest as overtly sexual. African culture (which includes African-American/Caribbean/Brazilian/Hispanic sub-cultures) is a very expressive form and a very different culture from European derived ones; but many Americans have been indoctrinated to demonize anything that is different from them.

@soul: You wrote: And if we are to do that, then we are left with the fact that their is something pretty sick, disgusting, vile and vulgar about the way white people dance to sexually inappropriate music within the family unit, in public., at the office e.t.c.

It sounds preposterous but, yep, that bothered me, too. Some of us are raised really puritanically. I participated out of peer pressure and most of those times I had fun, despite myself. But despite those positive experiences, which include black music that I typically considered extra sexually inappropriate, I didn't think about it nearly enough to think, "Hey, maybe music/dancing from black people isn't automatically sexual after all" or "I see that I'm the one that's been making all of this sexual for my own twisted reasons."

I appreciate you. I also appreciate that it is not easy to hear certain things and actually acknowledge them or even deal with them.

re: dancing. I don't know why this projection happens, and I was interested that you linked it to a brand of feminism, but then I really thought about it and I'm not sure, because both white men and women project this sexual thing at us and it's been going on since colonialism before feminism in the West became a defined/focus set effort.

Personally, I think it's simpler than that.I think, the way we move is simply not your norm. And white society is simply condition to find difference as abhorent, vulgar e.t.c.

You said you see an illusion of sexuality passed of as entertainment... I'm trying to understand why you see this?. I don't see it.I see people dancing, shaking your butt doesn't have to be about sex. you are simply moving a body part to a beat. Grown ups may chose to sexualise the dance but that baby sure isn't so why attach that thought to it?. Is it possible to think a little deeper on this? It might be worth exploring.

re: jealousy.The think is Karen L, you can move disentangle your body lol. Your rhythm at present is simply different. Work with what you have (smile).And you are soo right! It is about privilege!! It's about damn, we are supposed to be better at them, but look at the way they do this?. You say you've been unpacking your privilege and working on racism. I say, it is evident! keep at it! (smile)

i've come to really like that ivoirienne song...'decale' gwada, decale' gwada! woop woop!' no idea what it means, but its about a million times better than 'stanky leg', haha

i'm new to this blog, so maybe its been covered before-but a discussion on race and music might be interesting. for instance, i'd say about half of all white people really don't like rap/hip hop...and some of them LOATHE it w/a passion. i sometimes wonder if this hatred of hip hop is a safe way to express some of their feelings about PoC.

and...i wonder this; are there ANY black fans of blugrass? any at all?

My first thought on watching the first video: "Wow, that kid is good!" and all the instruction was coming from observation (of the older sibling.) At first it seemed like a contradiction; how could someone so young be so good at anything. Then I realized that, well, for the most part, as people grow into adults, they have to be socialized to feel embarrassment and shame to keep them from dancing.

I watched the videos before I read underneath each, and it was interesting to me that I talked myself out of being concerned that the baby was on the table. I didn't see that the kid was on a table until after I had marveled at his/her dancing skills for a moment. Then, I had a momentary "OMG the baby's gauna fall!!!" reaction, followed by, "Well, this baby, like all kids, likely has more self-awareness than people give them credit for; the baby knows (s)he is on a table, has a sense of balance, and knows what (s)he's doing."

The second child's dance seemed more choreographed, and she is older, but I was impressed by the skill in both.

I had the same reaction to both videos: cute kids, having fun moving to music. I found both pieces of music enjoyable. I didn't see anything inappropriately sexual in the dancing--I just saw kids imitating the ways that adults dance, throwing their whole bodies into it.

I come from a kind of hippie family, where we danced at home a lot. My one brother liked Arlo Guthrie, my other brother liked "The Turkish Rondo" and I liked Irish jigs. To me, "cultural appropriation" only comes into play if you're making it a performance... as far as I'm concerned, if you're eight years old and dancing in your own living room, you're allowed to get your groove on to whatever you like. This kind of enjoyment of their own bodies is going to serve both kids well in their lives.

Besides, what did Emma Goldman say? "If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."

@randy. You wrote:i sometimes wonder if this hatred of hip hop is a safe way to express some of their feelings about PoC.. My answer is a great big YES. You'll see that in my comments above and in the following. But for me, it's ALSO a safe way for me to express my feelings about men, mainly white men.

@soul. I will keep working on it and your appreciation and calling out or challenging does go a long way. Thanks.

So, about the projection. I called it projecting because when I see blackness in dancing, I _imagine_ that doing the exact same motions, that aren't my norm, would make me feel sexual. I can't mentally disentangle my body, motion, and sexuality. So I assume (unconsciously) that the dancer feels sexual, like I would. Actually, my imagination is failing because I've had good clean fun shaking my butt.

About packaging sexuality as entertainment for white men. Sex-as-entertainment was my conscious thought about the lyrics and why I was critising the video's song rather than addressing her dancing. Over-generalising, I see lots of popular music that is sold by white people to white people, using black performers, that is IMO _deliberately_ packaged with T&A sexuality. (Notice how I've already mentally denied black people agency by writing "using black performers" and "over-generalising.")

The sexualised entertainment undermines my privilege in a couple of ways: 1) it reinforces the madonna/whore complex that already represses me and 2) it makes sex into something readily and acceptably consumable by men. That reduces the value of my sexuality - the one distinctly female "resource" that men might value in me. Madonnas are invested in sex being scarce, not readily available.

These threats to madonna-privilege (Can you tell I just made that word up? LOL) leads to slut-shaming, even by women - a total win-win for white men. It holds up the madonna/whore thing, shaming chaste women into keeping their sexuality scarce so that it can be prized AND marginalising unchaste women, who are now easier to exploit because they have less power.

I think that my rapid charge of "sexism" is not just about pushing back against male enjoyment of sexualised entertainment but it is also MY unconscious way of slut-shaming any woman who would so much as CONDONE, let alone enjoy those lyrics that supposedly oppress me. WOW. That is really mean of me. I don't think sorry even really cuts it. Womanist Musings has a new post about slut-shaming.

Here's but one racist part of my white feminist thinking: The black musical influence and the presence of black performers in popular music and dance invites me put most of the BLAME for sexualised entertainment on (you guessed it!) black people. Never mind that I *know* where all the money comes from and ends up.And that is only the (mostly-) conscious thinking about sex-as-entertainment. Add on top of this, the unconscious centuries-old reviling of black bodies that I can only acknowledge in myself intellectually. Seriously, I'm in denial that I projected sexuality on to the dancing black baby, so instead I'm examining my racist reaction to the lyrics, which is already identity-threatening. My conscious reaction was that the baby kicked some serious ass and was awesomely adorable and happy at the same time.

And that is only the (mostly-) conscious thinking about sex-as-entertainment. Add on top of this, the unconscious centuries-old reviling of black bodies that I can only acknowledge in myself intellectually. Seriously, I'm in denial that I projected sexuality on to the dancing black baby, so instead I'm examining my racist reaction to the lyrics, which is already identity-threatening. My conscious reaction was that the baby kicked some serious ass and was awesomely adorable and happy at the same time.

A side note on how I guess white feminism has been at the expense of POC. Did you notice that earlier I wrote that my "one" resource prized by men was my sexuality? That's not entirely true, but it's truER now that white women have been somewhat "liberated" from domestic work that white men valued in us. And where did that domestic work go? Even white feminists know that it didn't just go away and it certainly isn't white men who picked up much the slack. You guessed it again: POC! The work of our POC babysitters is liberating us. I don't actually have a babysitter; I have even MORE privilege: well-off inlaws who retired young. No inconvenient feelings about paying other people to raise my children! Yay ME!

You point out that white women and white men have both been reviling and sexualising black bodies for centuries, never mind feminism. My first reaction to that was just because white women also over-sexualise black people doesn't make it not-sexist*. Underlying the over-sexualisation, I see white women being complicit in spreading sexism around all along. Another two-for-one for white men! White men use one end of the madonna/whore stick on white women and all white people use the other end on black people (not just black women, I think, but I'm in no position to tie this into the white men/black men dynamics.) Marginalised people, women and POC, only get to be under- or over-sexualised. Another part is just white women over-sexualising black people to get a taste of superiority, this time base on our race.

*Caveat: I've heard of but not studied a sociological definition of racism that per se precludes POC being racist; so, maybe the corollary is that women can't be sexist? Well, if white women's over-sexualising black people is enabled by the power of our race, I'd still want to call it sexist. It just seems weird to call it racist and sexist if men do it but only racist if women do it.

Finally, when I mentioned jealousy, it wasn't jealousy of dancing skill, if that's what you meant. It was jealousy of feeling free to use your body in perfectly normal ways (like dancing) without hating yourself. And yes (@ the pale observer), I'd probably dance more and be a better dancer if I did feel that freedom. Luckily not all white people have the SAME hangups that I have.

I didn't know the Stanky Leg was a participation dance. Interesting! I really should have googled it beforehand.

You said: "The fact is the very movement of that baby is enough to cause offense because she is black."

No. Like I stated, my first reaction was amusement because the baby was dancing. Then I noticed the song and the movements the baby was doing and I felt yucky.

As I stated previously, this yuckyness does stem from aversion to what I perceived to be "sexualized dancing" from such a small child. This has everything to do with my upbringing and has nothing to do with anything "wrong" that the child was doing.

After I veiwed both videos (I had a yucky feeling about BOTH of them) I realized that I felt yucky because I just KNEW there was going to be some pervert out there who was watching these with a whole different kind of amusement.

I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but the US has quite a large problem with pedophilia. Children who are using dance moves that are commonly seen and portrayed as "sexual" in the USA may attract unwanted attention from people who think it's okay to abuse children sexually.

This is where my aversion is coming from. I wish it weren't the case. I'd love to be able to watch these videos with amusement and embrace the joy these kids are feeling while they are dancing. In some part, I can, actually. But I can't fully because of the reasons I stated above.

This is MY problem, though. Like I said, I don't think badly at all of the children or their parents.

Other than the lyrics of the first song, nothing seemed off about either video. My first thought was "Wow. that baby is really talented!I can't dance like that!"

For the second video all I could think of was that the music wasn't necessarily 'African'; it sounded like Jamaican patios to me. I didn't watch it all the way through. Good dancer though!

I'm a little confused as to this exercise. Maybe it's because I grew up in a multi-cultural and multi-coloured family. My mum's a white Jamaican who married a 1st generation Dutch-Canadian and her sister married a black Canadian. Then we spent 2 years in Jamaica where I went to school. I'm just not tied up in this whole 'ingrained racism' that you all seem to be talking about.

You people are warped! Keep trying to convince yourselves of your "racist evolution" but while both of the children are adorable, the "dancing" in BOTH of those videos is the same.... trashy, ghetto, and SAD.

@Lawrence Welk Fan - It's SAD that you can see 'trashy' and 'ghetto' in a bubbly toddler in...for goodness sakes, diapers. You've basically given us a good analogy for understanding how pedophiles see 'sexual' in toddlers. (I'm not saying that it's the same, but that it works as an analogy.) It's all about the lens that people see things through.

I'm somewhat saddened to see so many people focusing on pedophilia rather than kids having fun. Once upon a time it was possible to watch kids having fun just for the fun of it; this was before Concerned Parties™ sexualised watching children play.

I guess I'm not watching enough trashy current affairs shows.

As for the videos, I just saw them as "yet more dancing kids videos". The only real difference in my thoughts was that early in the first video, the kid leans back to one side a bit, and I was wondering if there was a neurological issue there (I used to work in neurology). Continuing to watch it, it seemed not to be the case.

Regarding the music choices, I've had plenty of friends whose children love one weird 'non-kids' song so much they go nuts to it - the actual content of the music being irrelevant. It's something kids do, like the dinosaur phase or dressups or smearing icecream across their cheeks.

@Lisa, A few days ago, I thought something pretty similar to what I'm hearing you say. And my thinking was not a good thing. Furthermore, I was mean about how I said it. The only silver lining to this is that some people called on me to try to account for my hatefulness.

Ask yourself what's wrong with those lyrics that you called wrong. When I went through why about four or five times, I realised that most of my "problem" with the lyrics is that they were "black" - and I was arrogantly trying to shame black people for MY hate.

About "engrained racism": macon d's exercise was for us to connect our thoughts about the videos to the race of the people in them. But you didn't say a single explicit thing about race. Any reason? Even after not saying anything about race, you went on to list a bunch of reasons to imply that you couldn't possibly be racist. Any reason? Then you pretty much outright said you weren't racist, on any level, even an engrained level. You're protesting too much, I think.

Just because you're not understanding (or not thinking about) engrained racism doesn't mean you're not tied up in it. In fact, the opposite is probably true.

The second video is from the DRC and the little girl is actually doing the dance from the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSjjqhQ_99g (By Jessy Matador, btw, and there is a kid doing the same dance in the video). Interview with the little girl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6p8cURugV0

My thoughts: kid 1 registered as "aww! adorable dancing baby", the second as "holy crap, that kid can dance!" Not sure if that's racial. I think it's probably mostly because of the difference in age.

What does horrify me is that so many of the commenters here are all talking about how the dance style is sexual. This is DANCING, people. You use your body to dance. Adults do, in fact, also use their bodies to have sex! So if you never dance and you do fuck, I can see how you would get confused. But these are kids, dude! The pedophiles, they are in your head.

First:Watched most of both, twice. For some reason, the second one was the one that I had to work to feel comfortable with. I watched it the first time with a distinct feeling of... dread? I was tense. But I can't put my finger on why. I'm not quite sure what I was expecting, but it definitely felt... race-related somehow. I finally had to just force myself to relax. Even after reading all the comments, I still can't even make something up to explain the feeling. (Disclosure: I'm black and I grew up in the US, though I'm not a citizen. If any of that matters, which it very well might.)

Second:I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what I see as the primary difference between the two videos: the little black girl's dance seems pretty much spontaneous; the young white girl's doesn't. I highly doubt the baby was purposely taught that dance; I think she's just seen people doing it. And she's probably dancing along with someone off-screen (I suspect everyone in the room was dancing) and feeling their happy/upbeat vibe. Which: babies totally do that. All colors. Babies love to get down.

The white girl's dance, on the other hand, is clearly a purposely-learned routine (from a music video, I'd guess). Which could be why some people get a "showoff" vibe from it: it's a performance, and while she seems to be having fun, she's also visibly concentrating. Which seems... less fun. She's not feeling it as much, and that dampened my enthusiasm. It's not an entirely natural expression, you can tell. After a while I was like, "Just dance, little girl! Be free; move however you want!"

My initial reaction to the first video was that lil baby is good she has been watching somebody in her family do those moves.....My second thought was I hope they make her learn her ABC's just as well. Maybe a poor assumption on my part.

My inital thought when I saw the second video was she is really doing a dance and the music has elements of Soca/Calypso, then I focused on the language and said, hummm not Soca at least not from the Caribbean. When I looked at the little girl dancing I said the something similar about her as I did about the first child, that she has watched someone do this dance she is not free styling. Then it occured to me that maybe she lives where this music is part of the culture.

Those of us who live in the inner-city and are used to seeing girls as young as 14 pushing baby carriages up the street, feel for this child. To watch this child perform a dance at such a young age with such associations reminds me of the young men who were letting a two yr old smoke pot on YouTube. It reminds me of the cumulative images using children on http://www.hotghettomess.com. Her ability to perform this dance with such proficiency means she is mimicking what she sees on a daily basis. I lived across the street from a young black woman whose favorite names for her children were Bitches and Ho’s. I kid you not. If they had real names you would never know it. Her ignorance and the music she choose to play clearly had an effect on her small children. This damage will be evident once these children begin school. This child is being fed a steady diet of her elder's ignorance and as this continues it will eat away at her innocence. Because there is no moral guidance she will grow up thinking this to be the norm. It may be cute to the young people edging her on right now; but as she ages and becomes exposed to more ignorance she may end up a young unwed mother at 14 and wonder how she got there. It’s something we don’t want to talk about in the black community, but we see it every day. We are in denial when we fail to recognize it takes an entire village; a coalition of both grandma and grandpa. Teacher and Pastors working together to raise this child. If she is not the beneficiary of this type of positive intervention that stinky leg song becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The white child can do those dances and because of environment- nurturing, privilege and skin color; she will come away from her appropriations virtually unscathed. Little black girls who knew more than their years were called “Fast” in my day. Way too fast and curious for her own good. With no proper guidance from Mom, who is often young, and ignorant herself; with father absent from the home, she is destined to repeat Mom’s mistakes. Its why I as a black person cringed more when I saw the black child dance, than I did the white child try and dance.

In the black community dance is such a rich and traditional form of expression; and we blacks learn how to dance through osmosis. A cousin, or uncle- or our own momma will teach us how to dance. I learned how to do the Diamond Jerk and the Four Corners from my older female cousin. We are encouraged to dance at family reunions; we dance in political struggles and as a means of celebration and mourning. So it comes more natural to us than most. With that being said, some things considered cute in our culture are really damaging. Sometimes we can just be too ignorant to notice it until the damage reveals itself over time. More often than not- black households are headed up by 20-25 year-old single women, who sometimes entertain numerous male friends who bring their own brand of ignorance to the house. Young women, who have neither the tools nor the wisdom to raise a family, but do the best they can. We start going to house parties at an early age and we begin to hone our dancing skills. It becomes intertwined in culture and emotional expression. We dance in church and we dance at home before going to the club. Oftentimes you will see little black girls listening and singing lyrics to songs that are way too mature for them, and again we thinks it’s cute. But there are some things you just don’t teach a 2-5 year old. Knowing that whatever seed you sow in their youth they will reap negative consequences once they come of age. For it affects us negatively in far greater numbers.

I am Black specifically West Indian and used to outsiders seeing my cultural way of dancing as sexual and promiscuous. It's primarily the reason why I've stopped dancing since living in a majority white city few people would understand that just because I'm shaking my hips doesn't mean I'm a whore.

Watching the first video I had a good laugh, the baby was soo cute and had good rhythm and coordination. I didn't see anything wrong with it especially when I saw another family mmember dancing too. (And no I didn't worry about the baby falling off the table. Lighten up!)

I enjoyed the second video and thought the little girl danced very well. I didn't like the part about her touching her chest though, but that was the only sexual part I saw about the dancing.

It's really hard for me to articulate when I see a dance as sexual on a child and when it is it. Again, being of West Indian background I am quite used to children gyrating their hips. In fact it's not necessarily sexual when adults do it either. However there are some youtube videos that are overtly sexual (including some unfortunate boy-girl pairings that I've seen). I wish I could articulate exactly when that line is crossed.

Btw I grew up in the Bronx and I'm used to teen pregnancy but I don't "feel" for any of these two children because of this. Again there was nothing sexual about the baby dancing and only one small part in the French child dancing.

I watched these two videos and just thought how talented and fluid both of these children are with natural rhythm and everyone involved seem to be having a great time, including myself watching, although I was worried about the kid falling off the table.

My friends also saw it and they were like "wow" on both kids' dancing, nothing about colour was mentioned.

I also agree with Robin's comments.

Now on another note, that is the first time I listed to stanky leg or whatever it's called. I generally don't listen to that kind of music (typical of all this modern day rubbish music and that's why I no longer really buy music). Bring back the old school proper music and enough of these ghetto tunes already!

I think that was a really trashy song period but the baby was very cute and obviously has a thing for keeping up with beats and remembering simple moves. I didn't find the second video as cute, just unlady like.