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Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Ok, surprise I got my computer back tonight so I am going to go ahead and try and put one of these together.

I will be honest with you I really don’t want to do this as I don’t want to come across as being nothing but negative, but frankly I don’t know what else to be after tonight.

Yes we were on another back to back, yes we were tired, and yes we were missing George Hill and Jeff Foster.

None of that really matters. We’ve played 27 games this was Denver’s 28th. While we are missing a backup center and a backup combo guard they were missing their starting forwards as Gallinari missed the entire game and Nene missed the second half.

Honestly the last time the team played a good game was in Dallas and every since then even in the games they have won they have looked very shaky at best in playing.

I wish I could put my finger exactly on what is going on because in all honesty I don’t know. I would start at the defensive end as it just seems like our defensive play has slacked off and IMO a lot of that is being done on the perimeter. Earlier in the season we were getting a lot of ball deflections and even when we weren’t stealing the ball or changing possessions we were causing the opponents to get set up in their offense late in the shot clock often times either forcing a shot clock violation or causing a very poor shot to be hoisted up. This just doesn’t seem to be happening nearly as much lately. Also I’ve noticed that teams are now forcing Roy to the top of the key and sometimes beyond on the pick and roll and thus leaving the lane uncovered for what is now becoming an easy lay up at the rim.

Also on our offensive sets it seems we are starting to take more and more jump shots and it seems like our ability to work the ball into the post in the lane is waning. Now some of that is going to just be natural with teams adjusting their defense. But some of it is quick perimeter jumpers.

The worst part about all of this is that we have Miami staring at us on Tuesday night and while it is not a guaranteed loss, it will not be a walk in the park either.

Also while I’m at it I am going to do something I am loath to do, but I am going to criticize Frank Vogel for a couple of things. First and foremost he has got to stop letting other teams get such big runs before he calls a time out. I believe Denver went on a 10 point run before he made the first time out; he did this vs. Utah as well. Look I know both sides of this argument. There is the Rick Carlisle thinking that any time a team scored 2 unanswered baskets Rick was calling a time out (Ok that is a slight exaggeration but you get my point) and then there is the Larry Brown let the players play through it thinking. I’m not sure there is an absolute right way to do it, but I think we wait to long to make adjustments. Also when they have a 15 point turn around I would not only call time out after time out to get it stopped I would change out every player on the floor if it was necessary (again exaggeration but you get my point)
Second while I certainly understand the egg timer substitutions and mostly agree with it, there are times you have to turn off the timer. Granger was on fire at the end of the first. Why not let him play into the second to see if he is still going and then take him out. Not bench him, sit him for 20 min. of real time and then put him back in cold.

Like I said I hate to say anything about him but I can’t help but think that these two things tonight contributed to this loss.

Let’s just do grades for tonight, although I’ll warn you now it won’t be pretty.

Danny Granger: C Could have been much higher, but 5 turnovers and only 2 rebounds tends to drag your grade down when the team loses. Cory Brewer also looked like Bernard King for awhile tonight and while I don’t say Danny played horrid defense like some will, I won’t say he played good defense either. As he walked off of the court tonight he threw his towel hard into his seat and he looked very mad. I’m not sure about what either, and then I read that he refused to talk to the media. Don’t know what happened there.

David West: B Very efficient offensive game, good rebounding numbers. Had a bonehead pass to kill any chance of a comeback but I’ll give him a pass here because without his offensive plays we wouldn’t have had a chance anyway. However when Roy is out of position, which is happening more and more, David’s lack of lateral quickness is becoming more and more of a liability. Guards get beat, it happens to the best of them, so somebody has to step up and often times it is the power forward that has to do this. David is not doing it. I don’t know if he can’t or just doesn’t.

Roy Hibbert: D I’m being generous with the D btw. In the second half of this game he was outplayed by Kosta Kofous, yes I’ll say that again he was outplayed by Kosta Kofous. Roy you so far have had a great season, an all-star season but these past few games you have put in some old Roy Hibbert type games. I am just going to go pray that this is because you are tired and need some time off and that this isn’t the annual drop in production that you have suffered in the past. BTW his stats tonight were worthless because if you look at them you will think he had an ok game, he did not. He was horrid; in fact we would have been much better off with West and Hansbrough.

Paul George: C- Don’t let his final point on the board fool you. He did not have a good game either and if it wasn’t for hitting 3 three’s in the 4th he would have had a miserable game on the offensive end. His defense wasn’t hideous, which is what is saving him from a Roy like grade, but there were times where Arron Afflalo looked like Dwayne Wade cutting past him. I do appreciate the fact that he does get on the boards though. But I don’t like the fact that he only got to the line twice, which just tells me he wasn’t driving nearly enough.

Darren Collison: C- I’m probably being to gentle here as well. Yes he did a very good job in the first half at running the offense and yes in the 4th quarter he started running a good pick and roll with West. But my God his defense on Lawson was just embarrassing. I mean its one thing to let your man get past you once or twice but the entire game? Lawson was not only able to get into the lane he was able to get wherever he wanted whenever he wanted. Yea, I’ll stick with the C- but it felt worse than that.

Tyler Hansbrough: C+ Honestly we should have seen more Tyler tonight. He wasn’t as active maybe as you would like early on but just before he was taken out he was really down in the paint battling. I wish he would have gone to the rim more tonight because I have a feeling they would have fouled him. In fact it is a crime we only got him 3 shots which is troubling to me as it does seem that we have gone away from the interior smash mouth basketball we were playing at the beginning of the year. Roy was dead in this game so I think Tyler only playing 17 min. was a mistake.

Lance Stephenson: B+ If only he had a jump shot. He was about the only player tonight who I was certain of who had a pulse on our team. He had a couple of great steals and a terrific rebound off of a missed free throw for a put back. Also he had a pass to Dahntay Jones that was eye popping. He is still young and still has inconsistent games but I really like where I think he is headed.

A.J. Price: B+ Yes he shot too much, it just so happened tonight he actually hit some of his shots. However that is not what merits him the high grade. He along with Lance provided a spark of life in what was a lifeless team in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. He played fairly decent defense as well. In fact he did a better job on Lawson than Collison did.

Dahntay Jones: C Was still in control, which I’m about to quit even mentioning anymore as this hasn’t been a problem since the second week of the season. But he did miss some shots tonight that he really needed to hit. But then again you can say that about everybody on our team tonight (minus David West). He is still a good free throw shooter and got to the line as many times as Paul did (one was shot for a T but that is why I’m saying he shot as many and not more).

Lou Amundson: C- He was a human foul magnate tonight but he still played better defense than Roy. Oh how I wish he would not have missed that dunk, that would have been epic. But he did so it just looked bad. Not going to spend a lot of time on him because he really didn’t play that much.

I am not panicking by any means; I mean it’s just a three game (probably going to be a four game) losing streak. But I really am starting to be concerned, we just have not looked right for several games now.

Here this is what George Karl had to say about this game.

"We won the game because we had more effort and energy." - Denver Coach George Karl

I don’t know about you guys but that bothers me.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Really worried about this team in general, but specifically Roy. You mentioned that we haven't have a particularly good game since Dallas. I'm wondering if the fact that they beat the defending champs as well as getting recognition with PG and Roy going to Orlando has done them more good than bad. I just think they kind of are almost too high on themselves and just think they can win without trying or something. Anyways I hope Vogel or somebody gives them a good talking to or something, because this team is too good to start losing on a regular basis.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

We need to play to our strengths, which are: pound the ball inside, attack the rim, get fouled, make free throws, grab offensive boards. As far as I can tell, we haven't really been doing that lately.

They also need to work harder to get Hibbert the ball in good position. Posting up 20 feet away from the basket isn't gonna do it. It's the perfect way to get the big fella tired without much result (except for turnovers and missed shots).

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I just paraphrase what I said from the other post game thread.

This team needs to recommit to playing scrappy defense. They have been so focused on trying to play offense, and who scores, and how they score. They have lost the overall team focus. That's being a smash mouth defensive team. I would have put Lawson on his *** the first time he drove and jumped into me.

I agree with you, they just aren't getting deflections and steals. Nor are they getting O-rebounds.

I remember just a couple weeks ago Danny Granger making a bone headed turn over and making up for it immediately on the other end with a steal or a block. Tonight he had some terrible pass where he over shot Hibbert and Denver was off to the races. Danny trailed the play and looked like he was in position to block that shot. Instead he sagged off just a step once the ball handler was going to be partially challenged in the paint. BUT it was his stop to make if he wanted it.

They just gotta recommit to stingy tough D.

They aren't going to out score Miami. So they better out Defend them. You look at what this team did eariler in the year and it was all about Defense. The Lakers, The Warriors, The Bulls, The Mavericks...

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.

Shooting over 50% just doesn't do it for me if I know the opponet is shooting more often and getting to the line more. Remember when we used to out shoot every team from the free throw line? Denver made more than we even attempted in that game. Some of it may be the refs. but I'm saying most of it is the fact that we have become a soft jump shooting team.

I guess asking for Paul George to be more of an offensive weapon may have come with the price that we don't ram it down the other teams neck anymore. Paul drives on occasion but both he and Danny have been pulling up for jumpers of late as well.

Need to get back to what got us here IMO.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.

Shooting over 50% just doesn't do it for me if I know the opponet is shooting more often and getting to the line more. Remember when we used to out shoot every team from the free throw line? Denver made more than we even attempted in that game. Some of it may be the refs. but I'm saying most of it is the fact that we have become a soft jump shooting team.

I guess asking for Paul George to be more of an offensive weapon may have come with the price that we don't ram it down the other teams neck anymore. Paul drives on occasion but both he and Danny have been pulling up for jumpers of late as well.

Need to get back to what got us here IMO.

I totally agree that we didn't play our game. We needed to slow the pace and make them play half court ball. Make them play against their strength.

But it looked like we either didn't know how to do that or weren't able to. We tried to have a shoot out with the highest scoring team in the league and we lost.

But I can live with that. We're a young team. Apparently controlling the tempo isn't something we know how to do. So the coaches have some work to do.

But at no time did I think we looked awful tonight. And without a few key turnovers there would be banana's dancing about our high powered offense.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I see a couple of things that are disturbing.

One, With each passing game, it seems like our opponent is being allowed to run more and more. Our guards appear to be scoring more, but I think they are also driving the ball more. IMO, we are not defensively compensating for this action, and it is leading to more breaks by our opponents. We then find ourselves momentarily mismatched with our non-guards trying to help contain quicker players in transition.

Two, I think we are settling for way too many perimeter jump shots. None of us complained when Granger and George were hitting the 3, but when it's not goig in, that is a different story.

I think we need to get back to a primarily inside-out offense, as opposed to taking so many first opportunity jumpers. Part of the reason this has happened is that Roy is unable/unwilling to establish proper low-post, or our timing has just sucked in getting him the ball often enough when he does have position.

I think that some of this lack of success could be alleviated by a greater use of DWest in low post sets. DWest obviously has an excellent PnP/PnR and mid-range game going right now, and he has also been very successful posting up. I think we should make good use of his current success and take some of the post pressure off of Roy. We will need to conserve a bit as the season progresses and not just continue to wear him down.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Good post... I'll add that the demeanor and body language has changed from some of the players. All the defensive breakdowns and the low effort is really disturbing to me because it looks like it's a lack of focus. I'm hoping Danny's mad because Frank ripped them a new one... they deserve it.

Love Karl's comment too. He's a hell of a coach. Hopefully the players and Vogel use it as motivation.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Good point on the demeanor. I brought it up back in the Griz post-game thread, and it's really plagued us since the ORL game last Sat. night.

You could blame the compressed schedule, except that's essentially a mutual disadvantage for everyone. I can see a game or two here or there where you're flat, but this is a 5 game run (I'm including Utah where we had good, but also awful stretches) where your body language communicates lethargy, lack of focus, and the team identify (style of play) is nowhere to be found.

Miami is going to require a monumental defensive effort unless they are all cold. The type of D we played early on. Good test at this point. If they blow us out again (at home this time) my concern level will move up another level.

Peck, great point on West's lack of lateral quickness and how it takes away from our D. I'm glad to see his offensive game possibly stabilizing. No doubt we need it, but we have to find a way to compensate for his limited athleticism. He's also slow up and down the court and has had games where he has good post position, but just can't get enough elevation to take advantage. Hopefully, this last thing is still improving as he recuperates from the injury. But, if there's one achilles heal with him, that will be it - the athletic limitations. If we had another long/athletic big to pair with he and Roy, who has some similar issues, it would really help.

Personally, still think we need another impact addition to the team. I'm open right now to any of the following - spot-up shooting specialist, instant offense wing, strong, athletic 4 or 5 (or hybrid), floor general, pass first, defensive minded PG.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Interesting game to say the least, I had the best seats I've ever had. I was in section 5, 1st row behind the broadcasters rocking the Roy Hibbert All Star jersey. It was a very interesting experience being so close, hearing the players communicate, etc.

Everytime Lance checked in I was shouting "MVP" which as Peck said, he was essentially our MVP tonight.

Hansbrough seems absolutely and utterly dejected. The guy was hanging his head on the way back through the tunnel at the half and at the end of the game. Hansbrough was the ONLY player who wouldn't shake anybodys hand. Kudos to Lance, Dahntay, Paul George, and Hibbert for all being friendly with the fans even after the tough loss...these little things are important to the fans and this team needs all the help they can get. I have officially jumped off the Hansbrough bandwagon, seems he has an attitude issue right now and I will be absolutely thrilled for him to prove me wrong soon.

Lance needs 25 minutes a game, every single night...rain or shine. This guys passing continues to amaze me, the pass to D. Jones got quite a few people excited. His breakaway dunk was so nice to see...it was one of those plays that got his confidence going, which ended up leading to a great night for him.

Lou's alley oop dunk attempt was an absolute joke...GRAB IT AND LAY IT IN!!! We go to overtime tonight if Lou doesn't try to pretend to be Blake Griffin...there was no way he was going to hit that dunk and to throw it down with such extra force essentially guarantees the miss.

Foster/Hill are critically important to this team...and that is kind of scary. This team is coming back down to reality and I am worried the wheels are going to fall off if Miami has their way with us. I'll be at the Miami game also, really hope the boys can right this ship.

My extended family who consists of basically casual fans are just about to jump on board...a large group of us were at the game last night and I am certain a loss on Tuesday will probably have a lot of these casual fans "tuning back out."

*removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

One thing about our offense that was more apparent than ever last night is that our tempo hurts our percentages. In order to have a good half court offense you need two shooters (George and Danny when consistent), a play-maker (No one), and a post option (David or Roy even though Roy needs to be on his A-game)... Until we are good enough to use a half court offense at all times, we need to adjust and run a little bit more.

But even then I don't know how that would work because Darren slows things down every single time and can't take advantage of transition.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

One thing about our offense that was more apparent than ever last night is that our tempo hurts our percentages. In order to have a good half court offense you need two shooters (George and Danny when consistent), a play-maker (No one), and a post option (David or Roy even though Roy needs to be on his A-game)... Until we are good enough to use a half court offense at all times, we need to adjust and run a little bit more.

But even then I don't know how that would work because Darren slows things down every single time and can't take advantage of transition.

I disagree. Vogel has already asked the team to run more. One of the players mentioned it in a post game last week, I can't remember who. But I could definitely see the change in focus over the past week. We are focusing on running more (not our strength) and as a consequence our focus on tough d and physical play (which is our strength) has gone down. This is why were losing. Bring back the smashmouth!

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.

This is what Sam Mitchell said in the NBATV Post Game segment. The Pacers were doing great going into the 2nd half with a 6 point lead....but they were playing the Nuggets game.......continuing...as you say...to run a high-octane offense that they are not accustomed to....but something that the Nuggets are totally capable of doing. In the end, the Nuggets won the game on their terms, simply outran and outgunned the Pacers.

Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Roy looks tired, I agree, did you see him run up and down the court to be ignored 8 times in a row on every break he was there, heck they would have had to reanimate me after the second! (ok the 1st but who really cares)

Roy get's position, he just don't get the ball.
West is taking time off on defense since he can move lateral on offense, no two ways about it.

Hansbrough is too busy moaning to the refs and trying to get the ball out of anyone's hand that he has no clue how to run a fast break and jumps on top of his teammates for a rebound when there are only Pacers contending it.

The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.

Our strength is our size, which lends itself for half-court setups, not running with the devil, all you do is wear out West and Hibbert in those windsprints, fighting big man for position is taking enough out of anyone to not have to add that running around to it.

Stop the JOB ball, please!

P.S. I am not worried, we are at BEST a top 4 seed but at least one year away from being a contender so I don't judge the team on that, 38 wins is fine for me, anything more is icing on the cake, homecourt in the playoffs yes please, but I am not seeing us in the finals yet.

They wanted it more? you bet your arse, they just lost 5 in a row! they better want it more!

So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

Lance needs 25 minutes a game, every single night...rain or shine. This guys passing continues to amaze me, the pass to D. Jones got quite a few people excited. His breakaway dunk was so nice to see...it was one of those plays that got his confidence going, which ended up leading to a great night for him.

D. Jones thought it was nice too. You could tell by the look on his face after the layup.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

I disagree. Vogel has already asked the team to run more. One of the players mentioned it in a post game last week, I can't remember who. But I could definitely see the change in focus over the past week. We are focusing on running more (not our strength) and as a consequence our focus on tough d and physical play (which is our strength) has gone down. This is why were losing. Bring back the smashmouth!

To me it looks like half-court perimeter play, which is the exact opposite approach we should have. I don't see running, I just see a whole lot of passing around the perimeter with some PnR's and high post ********. We almost always run the clock down, but it ends up being a terrible shot because neither West nor especially Roy receive the ball enough anymore.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

To me it looks like half-court perimeter play, which is the exact opposite approach we should have. I don't see running, I just see a whole lot of passing around the perimeter with some PnR's and high post ********. We almost always run the clock down, but it ends up being a terrible shot because neither West nor especially Roy receive the ball enough anymore.

I think that they receive the ball regularly. Unfortunately, I don't see them receiving the ball early enough in good position. It seems to me if we are going to play a half-court game then they need to establish good position in the low post earlier in the shot clock and then be fortunate enough to actually receive a decent entry pass from which they can "do something".

Once the clock is down to 5-6 seconds, unless the entry pass is going to lead to lead directly to a favorable shot attempt, the entry pass may as well not be made to Roy. I say that because Roy will usually spend 3-4 seconds jockeying to get up his shot.

I think both Roy and West would be shooting at a higher percentage if the entry pass were made earlier. That way, they have the option of passing out rather than being forced to put up the shot. And quite frankly, late in the shot clock, I would rather see one of our perimeter players put up a perimeter 3 against lighter coverage than see Roy or DWest being forced to put up a shot against a double-team/heavy coverage.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

The Nuggets are not only the top scoring Team in the League, they are the 2nd best shooting Team in the League.

Guess what? the Pacers are a "middle of the road" scoring Team while being the 25th worst shooting Teams in the League.

The Pacers tried to do something that they are not good at....outgun a Team that's way better at scoring than we are.

As Peck said.....we didn't play our game...we played their game....which was one of the worst things that we could have done.

It's a learning experience. We're a young team that's going to make mistakes and have set backs. That shouldn't surprise anyone but the most casual fans.

The early season success seems to have made everyone forget that we're still developing. We got hot early so now we have to win every game or it's the end of the world? That's silly.

We all agree that the Pacers played the Nuggets game. And hopefully they learned from that. But why is it so awful for the Pacers to make that mistake? How do they learn without making that mistake? Better coaching? I think the young coaching staff is doing a great job. More practice? No time for that this year.

I've enjoyed watching the Pacers for nearly 40 years. When they were a veteran team I enjoyed watching them play the same game night after night. They knew their strengths and weaknesses and what worked and what didn't.

Now they're a young team. They don't have a history of winning. They're still feeling each other out. And guess what, it's gonna be that way for the rest of the season. But I can enjoy watching that process. I can enjoy watching them learn and develop. That's what you get with a young team.

And we've got a young coaching staff. They didn't seem to know how to rein the players in last night. And since we had a nice lead early, they probably felt like they shouldn't. But that's ok, as long as they figure it out for next time. That's part of the process for them too.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

So, slow it down, play within yourselves, don't press too hard due to rising expectations, let the game come to you, trust each other on both ends of the court, allow the chemistry of the team to develop.

Young teams experience this. Good young teams overcome this in the long run to become great young teams (Thunder).

Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.