August 19, 2009

"You want me to talk about it or do you want to yell?" he asked over and over when interrupted while trying to answer. Continued shouting brought a sterner rebuke.

"Disruption never helps your cause," he said more than once. "It just looks like you're afraid to have rational discussion."...

"What's the matter with you all?" he said. "I don't know if you get angrier when I answer the questions, or when you don't think I do."

Ha ha. I love hearing Frank voice his confusion about whether people are accepting his answers as serious efforts at fully answering the questions. He doesn't know if they hate his actual answers or if they know he's not really answering. I'm guessing he knows he's not fully answering, and he knows they hate his partial answers, and he's trying to calculate whether giving full answers would get a better result. On the one hand, they'd be full answers, but on the other hand, they'd be there presenting a big target for the crowd's contempt.

I saw Barney Frank, in response to the question "why should someone with a mortgage on their house, that is current with their payments and responsible with their credit, bail out these people that took ridiculous ARM loans. Is that fair?"

His answer, "life's not fair."

While I completely agree with him on that last point, it's stunning to hear a Washington Dem say that passionately (as he did and text cannot reflect here). It flies in the face of SO much of the progressive agenda.

I haven't been able to find a link to a full transcript. Does anyone know exactly which Nazi policy she was referring to? Was it something related to health insurance, or was it the extermination of jews?

After getting almost 200 Friend requests in the last couple of months. only 6 of those actually communicated with me after I said yes, that I would be their friend. It seems like the same 15 "cool" people - who have 500 or more Facebook Friends - comment aong themselves and just want everyone else to know what they do. Reminds me of High School social dynamics all over again. I'm ashamed that I was a Senior Jock that dated one of the Cheerleaders/Homecoming Princesses and played the social strata game. Don't want to do it anymore. Graduated 30+ years ago.

I am suspicious because it looks to me like he prompts her to hold up her sign, and she does on cue; she looks like a young "progressive" to me, not an extremist conservative. Her hair, her dress... she just does. Also, Larry King said this question comes just as Frank was "wrapping up" the press conference. An attendee against Obama saying such an idiotic thing would be the perfect way to close it for him.

I'll admit I'm putting on a conspiratorial hat, here, but I can't help it. I smell a rat.

I agree that she 'looks' non-conservative. But she is in New Hampshire, and there are lots of weirdos there. I think she might be just way too far left that she's wrapped around to the extreme right side of the Political spectrum. Kinda like flying New York to Boston by way of Detroit, Chicago, Seattle, Tokyo, Moscow, London and Reykjavik.

It's too bad that the youtube viral video doesn't include more of the question. That would clarify matters.

I think Frank could have more politely shown her to be an idiot if he had asked her to describe how the policy they're discussing is a Nazi policy. Or in what ways a black man compares to Hitler. But I guess it's better to get a sound bite out there if you're a politician.

I think Frank's response was perfectly fine. I don't think those questions should be dignified with a thoughtful answer; ridicule is appropriate. But I still find it unlikely she's legit, and I think his response was likely staged.

The young woman was clearly a plant, and not a very good one. A smarter campaign would have chosen someone who at least looked the part. Age--wrong. Dress--wrong. Sun glasses--wrong. Ethnicity--wrong. And her comments, while stupid, were wooden and scripted. There was no passion, no spittle, no anger. No, she's an Obamabot doing a poor impersonation.

But in general the lack of providing clear information/answers in these various forums about what exactly is going on, is driving people justifiably crazy. Although the President is largely insulated from this, he's the worst at rambling incoherence.

"It is the forced socialist utopian enterprise coupled with the government demonization of anyone that dares to object as being mobs or unamerican."

Well, the shouting imbeciles who refuse to allow actual debate are mobs and "unamerican," to the degree that being "american" means we allow and encourage spirited debate, and abhor obstruction of discussion through vocal bullying.

As for "forced socialist yadda yadda," a majority of Americans favor some sort of public option or even single payer. This is hardly utopian, given the many countries where such national health care is provided and works, and it is hardly forced, given the desire for it by so many of us.

"Further, the left's idea for a government panel that will decide if your life is worth being prolonged has a strong tincture of the Nazi concept of lebensunwerten lebens (lives not worth living.)"

I agree that she is most likely a plant. She looks it, and it is not the kind of question being asked by the protesters, but rather the kind the proponents like to suggest that they are. If she is authentic, it's just dumb, so what. Frank's response was lame. To attack her when he could have offered any number of intelligent rebuttals to that softball. He is a scary man to have in power. I can't imagine handling my stock holders' questions like he did. I would be fired that day, and my company is not projecting a 3 trillion dollar debt under my management. Pure arrogance.

You claim that other countries' government healthcare "works", but they all have huge budget shortfalls, and you also claim we have a crisis here in the US because Medicare and Medicaid is unsustainable.

How is fiscally and monitarily unsustainable by a government "working" in any sense of the word?

If you can't see how your two positions are diametrically opposed to each other, then there is nothing that need be said to you further.

You have already shown yourself to be willing to subjegate your intellect to your politicical sway.

Uh, because the woman asks a question that is embarrassingly stupid and thus counterproductive to defeating the Obama health plan, she must be a plant? Do all of you think that only liberals ask stupid and embarrassing questions? How about getting few facts about the woman before leaping to a conclusion.

Barney Frank is good enough at avoiding relevant questions without giving him a huge softball to hit.

"Well, the shouting imbeciles who refuse to allow actual debate are mobs and "unamerican," to the degree that being "american" means we allow and encourage spirited debate, and abhor obstruction of discussion through vocal bullying."

I know! That's why most Americans are mad at the Congress for doing this, and want there to be a debate instead of rammed through.

Hopefully, the Democratic leaders have read such perfect comments as yours, will take them to heart, and change their ways.

AJ Lynch said..."I wonder what the record is for most incumbent Congress critters losing their seats in one election?"

The record is more than half. In fact, before the 20th Century the Congress regularly consisted of about 50% first timers. Being in Congress wasn't the great career move it is now, and the legislation creating nearly unassailable incumbency was not even a whispered wish.

The Nazi analogy is thrown out to alude to fascist power similarities such as the Obama's Cult Logo of a Messianic figure and the Acorn/SIEU thugs roaming around while the Whitehouse collects snitch rumors of anti-Obama talkers.That is mild stuff used against Bush's War on Terror tactics too. Where the similarity has grabbed traction in health care is the obvious similarity to Third Reich policies to STEAL THE WEALTH of the Jewish citizens while practically excluding them from all life in Germany except as slaves. The "Final Solution" that we all think about did not happen until 8 years later when the Hitler gang began to fear losing the war which would free the indigent Jewish slaves. Only then was extermination rushed up ASAP with 1/3 of the resources of Germany's losing war effort taken away to Industrialise the killing. So the attempt to STEAL THE HEALTH CARE DOLLARS they have contributed into Medicare from retiring baby boomers after already having stolen half of their retirement IRA balances and making plans to steal their earned Social Security, all taken together is very close to the Nazi paradigm. If that sounds bad to say, it is only because it is bad reality that is blowing our way under the Soros/Obama conspiracy. So far Palin's is the only voice that nails it. Money spent on white grandmothers and the mentally disabled are indeed the targets of President Obeyme who has friends who want to build us windmills worth nothing with that stolen money. Prove me wrong, if you can. But calling me crazy is not an argument.

I am hoping that the electorate has actually had the scales fall from thier eyes and are finally seeing these cockroaches for what they are and the road to financial ruin that they are leading us down.

CBO is estimating a $17 trillion federal debt by 2019 folks. There ain't enough money in the nation to pay that off. That means national bankruptcy, we become the Weimar Republic. But hey, fuck that debt, lets add a few more trillion more so we can provide free health care to EVERYONE.

Althouse posted: "'Disruption never helps your cause, he said more than once."

And Robert Cook said: "Well, the shouting imbeciles who refuse to allow actual debate are mobs and 'unamerican,' to the degree that being 'american' means we allow and encourage spirited debate, and abhor obstruction of discussion through vocal bullying."

I would have welcomed a spirited and informed debate on this bill. But Robert Cook and Barney Frank (and Pelosi and Hoyer) are intellectually dishonest to imply that's would have happened if the "unamerican mobs" had been polite.

The only reason this bill may be coming off the rails is because people got up and shouted. I don't approve of it, but the alternative was this bill being passed quickly and without debate. The alternative was never an intelligent national conversation, with all sides being permitted to calmly state their positions.

Quayle said: "...you also claim we have a crisis here in the US because Medicare and Medicaid is unsustainable."

I've never said any such thing.

Hoosier Daddy asks, "And Cookie, do you think those 'progressive' kids at US campuses that shout down conservartive speakers or throw food at them are mobs and unAmerican?",

Yes.

By the way, for those interested, here's a fantastically on point takedown of Barak Obama and his tepid non-reform Health care "reform," from a leftist perspective, posted today at COUNTERPUNCH:

http://www.counterpunch.org/

Look for the article headed: "Guess What? He's a Terrible President"

That's how to do it, boys and girls. You look at reality, rather than calling out completely inapt names such as "socialist" or "fascist" or "socialist fascist" (from those for whom no degree of hyperbolic overstatement is hyperbolic or overstated enough).

And there have been other polls showing very similar results, of course.

I don't recall seeing any polls showing that a majority of Americans reject a public health care option of some kind, although it's possible there may be data out there. I'd be happy to look at any links you can provide.

"The only reason this bill may be coming off the rails is because people got up and shouted. I don't approve of it, but the alternative was this bill being passed quickly and without debate. The alternative was never an intelligent national conversation, with all sides being permitted to calmly state their positions."

Exactly, Marcia. The public really has no alternative but to get belligerent. Otherwise they will be ignored, and they still will by many of our keepers.

Americans do not favor any of the democrat's proposed health care reforms. If you read any poll that provides the true details and consequences of such a plan, the people are strongly against what we're being sold.

It's easy for you to say Americans want a reform. That's so general that it's useless. I doubt it's even true. People want to be able to eat cake all day and drive ferraris in once sense, but they don't really want that, when you add in the realities that come with those goodies (paying money and losing health).

Obama has proven he will backtrack on his promises, so the people don't trust that his reform will save money or increase choice. We think it will be extremely expensive, reduce quality of care, and reduce our choices. I think it is an attempt to create a crisis that the democrats can fix with another reform, this time single payer.

Regardless, it's not useful to talk about generalities. Most Americans would have approved of Saddam being ousted, but many opposed the war part of that.

I don't recall seeing any polls showing that a majority of Americans reject a public health care option of some kind, although it's possible there may be data out there.

Well it certainly begs the question doesn't it. I mean The One, has a massive majority in both the House and Senate yet he can't get it passed?

I mean if its just a couple of un-American mobs being unruly I can't for the life of me understand why such an accomplished, smart and master orator that was elected by 52% of the people can't pass a simple bill that evidently the majority of Americans want. I mean even that idiot Bush, the dumbest man on the planet got an unpopular war passed by Congress, how hard can it be for Obambi?

Doesn't this seem fishy to anyone else or is the man simply incompetent?

Watching the perpetual congressional queen do this only reminds me of the typical hysterical homosexual who uses these attacks against himself to retort with his long practiced and long suffering rejoinders against those who he thinks are attacking him. It's cheap. It's phoney and it's typical of the leftist, east coast political mindset. Forget that he is a despicable human being who would lie, cheat, and steal to forward his demented agenda, but just as a politician who has glommed onto a piece of legislation as a means to an end and he knows that if he is successful in helping to pass this that his tenure in office will be cemented for life.

" I mean The One, has a massive majority in both the House and Senate yet he can't get it passed?

I mean if its just a couple of un-American mobs being unruly I can't for the life of me understand why such an accomplished, smart and master orator that was elected by 52% of the people can't pass a simple bill that evidently the majority of Americans want. I mean even that idiot Bush, the dumbest man on the planet got an unpopular war passed by Congress, how hard can it be for Obambi?

Doesn't this seem fishy to anyone else or is the man simply incompetent?"

1.) He's incompetent2.) He's sold out to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries;3.) Oppostion is in Congress, from Congresspersons who are also largely sold out to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

This has zero to do with the overhyped but undercooked "protest" of health care reform by gaggles of incoherent and uncomprehending dupes who are being incited by paid operatives for the corporate interests.

Of course, as others have pointed out, for example at COUNTERPUNCH today, Obama's "reform" is so corrupted and misbegotten that its passage will be worse than if the whole thing stalls.

We need real reform, not the baloney that is being passed off as prime rib, and Obama is not the man who can or will do it.

The only reason this bill may be coming off the rails is because people got up and shouted. I don't approve of it, but the alternative was this bill being passed quickly and without debate. The alternative was never an intelligent national conversation, with all sides being permitted to calmly state their positions.

After getting almost 200 Friend requests in the last couple of months. only 6 of those actually communicated with me after I said yes, that I would be their friend.

So? Why do you care whether random people you went to high school with communicate directly with you on facebook? It’s still a great tool for keeping in touch with family and friends who live in other parts of the country!

Maybe it's because you were a "Senior Jock that dated one of the Cheerleaders/Homecoming Princesses and played the social strata game" :)

To be compared with Nazis is ridiculous and insulting, just as it was with Bush. It's a 'conversation' ender because it marks the comment-maker as too stupid to talk to.

I suspect she was a plant too because I've met no one who believes socialist style healthcare, communist policy if you like, are remotely comparable to Naziism. But of course I haven't met everybody.

I would like Frank to answer, er Frankly, why he thinks socializing healthcare is a better idea than tweaking the system we have, but I already know the answer to that and Frank is never completely honest, with himself nor with us.

Incidentally, my doctor loves him and I fully expect him to be reelected with ease, especially after taking credit for socializing healthcare without any help from Republicans.

She's clearly a loony Larouchite. Thanks to Rialby for his detective work.

But as far as your questions, Chip, the socialized medicine of the Weimar Republic laid the groundwork for the rise of National Socialism in Germay. A few years ago, I saw an exhibit at the Holocaust Museum which illustrated the connections between the Holocaust and the eugenics movement which was popular with so many intellectuals in the 1920s and 1930s. The Holocaust started, under the guise of the eugenics movement, as a plan for removing the insane or the mentally deficient from the gene pool, but quickly morphed into a plan for "racial purity."

I don't care that the rest of the industrialized world has universal health care. I really don't. France has a great health care system. They also get 70% of their energy with nuke power but get the libtards to go with that. We can't even inconvenience a couple of caribou for oil.

Maybe someone can tell me why I as a taxpayer (one of the 40% who do pay taxes) need to pay even more so someone has the same level of care as me? Why not put them in the same style home? Give them the same wardrobe? Car? Food allowance? I mean where does it end?

We had this notion that everyone should have their own home and we saw how that ended up. This may come as a newsflash to some but when you try and level the playing field you end up bring a whole bunch of folks down a notch or three and they happen to be the dumbfucks who actually fund the game.

I've said it before, I'd have a lot less opposition if not outright support for the whole thing if everyone has some stake in the game. Sorry but when 60% of the electorate gets a pass on paying Federal tax I get a bit testy when I'm expected to pony up for them.

Barney Frank said that "life isn't fair". It's a direct quote and there's absolutely no way to parse that out into mistatement or misunderstanding.

He's probably never been more correct or conservative in his life. The basis of conservatism is the realization that life isn't fair and that not all of us are equal in abilities and gifts...but we should all be equal under the law.

"This has zero to do with the overhyped but undercooked "protest" of health care reform by gaggles of incoherent and uncomprehending dupes who are being incited by paid operatives for the corporate interests."

That's clearly incorrect. The protests are enormous and very unusual, and have made a huge impact on the freshmen blue dog democrats who promised to be fiscal conservatives. Even Obama had to pretend to be a right winger 'TAX CUTS for 95%!!! Deficits must be CUT!'.

Robert has his bias and anyone opposing health care reform gets some kind of slur attached to them. They are all dupes? Or maybe they really like the awesome health care system we've got. The one that should be reformed by eliminating medicare and many other government intrusions that caused the problems we've got.

Our health care system has one huge facet that bugs the left and probably bugs Robert: you can make tons of money by developing cures and treatments and insuring people. It's not the highest profit margin I've ever seen, but doctors, drug companies, etc can make a lot of money. Of course, that means a lot of people in America are producing cures for diseases. That won't be as much the case if the democrats take some of this profitability away.

yes, Peter S is right, he was talking about his Jewish background and tradition of answering question with question.

I agree the woman asking the ? does seem weird but it really doesn't matter. As you can see from the photos (thanks EDH) of this meeting a lot of people have these Obama-Hitler signs. They are all real people who are willing to bring these to a meeting with a GAY JEWISH congressman. He is addressing the signs and not as much her "question". Even if they are followers of LaRouche, they were there and he was addressing them. Frank doesn't say that all people opposing the Dem. HC plan are making this stupid point.

"Maybe someone can tell me why I as a taxpayer (one of the 40% who do pay taxes) need to pay even more so someone has the same level of care as me?"

Why should I as a taxpayer need to pay as much as I do to fund illegal wars of aggression and mass murder abroad, in which torture and indefinite detention of innocents is a prime feature?

Who says I should have to pay taxes to pay for interstate highways I may never drive upon or federal parks I may never camp out and throw my trash away in?

That's how it goes, champ: the people, through their representatives, determine how the public coin should be spent, and we all share in the expenses. Of course, "the people" in contemporary parlance refers to the corporate swine who own "our" representatives in Congress, and who essentially write the bills that are passed into law. That's why you probably needn't worry your creased little head about having to shell out a nickel to some hardworking soul who has been downsized out of a job and his insurance, and who may die or be bankrupted for want of the funds to pay his medical bills, because civilized health care will probably not see light of day in our country anytime soon.

"Sorry but when 60% of the electorate gets a pass on paying Federal tax I get a bit testy when I'm expected to pony up for them."

Froggy - What are you talking about - many people had these signs? I don't see that in any picture.

I don't support anybody bringing a picture of a swastika or a Obama-as-Hitler poster to a rally for the following reasons: 1) it's a silly charge to make, 2) it does nothing but gives people on the Left the opportunity to make ridiculous charges and 3) the Left has been doing that for decades and there's no reason to sink to their level.

The point that most people will raise is that LaRouche supporters are regularly attributed to liberals, moderates or conservatives that have real issues with Obama's plan. The news media didn't cover her a some nutjob who's to the Left of 99% of Americans. They cover her as just another protestor when she's clearly not. They are tarnishing the names of the many people who are against this plan for very good reasons. And, just so you know, there are many Gay and Jewish folks among those angry protestors as well.

Also, if you think that Barney Frank didn't call on her and make her hold up her sign just so he could 1) invoke his ethnic background and 2) highlight a nutter knowing that she'd never be covered as one, then you've not been around a lifetime Beltway politician.

Rialby - if you look at the Health Care Rage gallery that EDH linked to on the Boston Hearld webpage, you can see 8 photos. 3 show people with the Hitler signs. The 2nd from last shows a guy handing them out and then a table with two people giving them out. One shows Curtis Yule with the sign held up during the actual rally with Frank. Then there is the lady who asked the ?. Not just one nut. I agree that the media coverage is not makign it clear that these nuts are just a small % of the people opposing the plan and some may think all on the right think Obama is a Nazi which of course is nuts.

Re public support for health care reform (ie, current bill(s) in congress. Rasmussen's poll last week hit a new low with only 42% approval: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

Are there problems in the existing system? sure. to wit: liability issues, making non-profit hospitals take charity patients thereby losing money and passing on those loses to private insurers by raising rates to cover the losses--but most of these are basically tweaks and do not require a massive overhaul.

"As you can see from the photos (thanks EDH) of this meeting a lot of people have these Obama-Hitler signs. They are all real people who are willing to bring these to a meeting with a GAY JEWISH congressman."

You know, I have to ask.

In what possible way does it matter that Frank is gay or Jewish? He has to be judged on what he does and how he votes.

I don't think that the Hitler imagery is useful, but I know that I could make a devil's advocate argument that it *is*. Obama has retained everything Hitleresque about Bush (to the extent anything actually was) and has added, or attempted to add, a perpetual cadre of street level operators and has asked for detractors to be identified and reported to him.

In a more general sense people recognize that they are being steamrolled into a situation where their personal freedom and choices will be taken away. Some of them might understand the concept of fascism as a political philosophy that requires, at its heart, the enforcement of unity, a united front, the fascia of people all working together... which becomes a lock-step. Something completely necessary for Obama's bright new hope for tomorrow to so much as function. OR they could just be attaching the label, fascist or socialist, that in their minds equates to "this is bad, I don't like it."

In any case... gay... jewish... it's irrelevant to what should be off limits to the Senator's delicate ears if he is voting for and supporting a drastic change in something so *intimately* affecting people's selves, lives, and very bodies and that many people see as clearly requiring government coercion and universal cooperation to so much as implement.

Do recall... this was SUPPOSED to have been passed and voted on in TWO WEEKS.

Inexcusable.

And stinking of an attitude, call it fascist or socialist or just plain "something bad I don't like", that the State can do whatever it likes and the populace has a duty to fall in line.

I tried to explain as gently as I can what people should and shouldn't do when it comes to being effective at townhalls. Compare that to what your leaders suggest: they just tell you to show up (or they encourage you to act out). Their goal isn't to discredit politicians, they just want to put on a show.

With antics like this and the entire Democratic presidential primary, I believe the average American has finally come around to the fact that it's the Dems/Libs that play identity politics, not the other way around.

Fair enough. But even if the level of race-baiting and identity-cashing-in were equal on both sides (which it's not), the conservatives are supposed to be that way (if you buy into the standard liberal meme).

Bear in mind, here, that I'm speaking to the public faces of both sides, not the vitriol that passes for debate in ye ol' blogosphere.

I actually watched O'Reilly last night for almost the first time. He had a guy on who was explaining why the upset at town halls was racist *now* and the exact same rhetoric was not racist *before* and among many reasons that amounted to "just because" the guy actually SAID that it was racist because someone had voted Republican for years.

Said it.

O'Reilly said, "So, being Republican makes you racist."

He didn't push it though, but let the guy say something about that's not what he meant, that he didn't think Republicans had to be racist, just, I suppose, when they did stuff you had to take that into consideration.

He also said that the town hall behavior was racist because the people were OLD.

Yes, indeed. OLD people were old enough to have existed when the law supported segregation so they held that taint, because they were OLD. So they could say the same things as other people had said, but because they were OLD it held a racist undertone that couldn't be avoided.

"I tried to explain as gently as I can what people should and shouldn't do when it comes to being effective at townhalls"

I guess it depends what you consider "effective" and frankly, I don't think people should be all that critical of the level of anger or lack of etiquette considering the importance of what is being attempted and the absolute deafness of the targets of the communication i.e. the congress.

"Hey pal, I have BEEN DOWNSIZED before and guess what I went out a got a fucking job. Got two of em at one point so spare me the pant pissing."

How fortunate for you, but there are many people who cannot find jobs...there's an economic collapse on if you hadn't noticed. Additionally, not every job offers health benefits, while others may offer benefits too meager to provide sufficient coverage for major care. In places where several tiered plans are offered, the higher tiered plans that provide truly adequate coverage may be too expensive for some employees to opt for them.

But, as long as you glide along your gilded path of good fortune, I'm sure it's easy for you to assume those not on that same path have fallen away through their own sloth or bad behavior. How comfortable for you.

"Hey pal, I have BEEN DOWNSIZED before and guess what I went out a got a fucking job. Got two of em at one point so spare me the pant pissing."

How fortunate for you, but there are many people who cannot find jobs...there's an economic collapse on if you hadn't noticed. Additionally, not every job offers health benefits, while others may offer benefits too meager to provide sufficient coverage for major care. In places where several tiered plans are offered, the higher tiered plans that provide truly adequate coverage may be too expensive for some employees to opt for them.

But, as long as you glide along your gilded path of good fortune, I'm sure it's easy for you to assume those not on that same path have fallen away through their own sloth or bad behavior. How comfortable for you.

Wow. I didn't realize you were this much of a classist fuck. I wonder how many dog-eared pages you have going in Das Kapital?

Hmmm...I'm a little suprised, not to say puzzled, that expressing a little bit of disdain for someone who aggressively spouts an "I've got mine, fuck you!" attitude marks me as a "classist fuck," but, what the hey.

But, as long as you glide along your gilded path of good fortune, I'm sure it's easy for you to assume those not on that same path have fallen away through their own sloth or bad behavior. How comfortable for you.

You know what Cook, go fuck yourself. Gilded path of good fortune my ass. Yes that's what it is. One day after my trust fund ran out from my heady party days the fairy fucking godmother came down and touched me with her wand and my whole life has been a skip and trot down the path of fortune.

You're such a fucking tool you're not worth another second of my time.

" Robert Cook said..."Hey pal, I have BEEN DOWNSIZED before and guess what I went out a got a fucking job. Got two of em at one point so spare me the pant pissing."

How fortunate for you, but there are many people who cannot find jobs...there's an economic collapse on if you hadn't noticed. Additionally, not every job offers health benefits, while others may offer benefits too meager to provide sufficient coverage for major care. In places where several tiered plans are offered, the higher tiered plans that provide truly adequate coverage may be too expensive for some employees to opt for them.

But, as long as you glide along your gilded path of good fortune, I'm sure it's easy for you to assume those not on that same path have fallen away through their own sloth or bad behavior. How comfortable for you.

8/19/09 6:36 PM"

The food you eat, the water you drink, the power you use, the clothes on your back and the roof over your head and everything you consume was transported on an interstate highway either in whole or in part or contains components shipped on those highways. That is why there is no comparison in your ridiculous comment equating subsidizing some parasite with what is recognizably a core function of government. Furthermore those highways were intended for (and still are considered as such) as part of the national defense infrastructure, again a core function of government. And those highways were and are being paid for by road taxes and fuel taxes by those who directly use them so your entire premise is utterly foolish.

We do not have a mobocracy that 51% can vote themselves to rob the 49% blind. Where exactly in the constitution does the Obamination and the neo-communist party find the authority to do any of the crap they are intending to pull? Hoosier Daddy is right, he is not your indentured servant and his money is not your to spend. Your problem is not his obligation (or mine).

Cubanbob: are you unaware of "rhetorical questions" or of reading in context?

Of course we all pay for he interstate highway systems because we all benefit by them, just as we all benefit from the other public works that we all pay for: police, fire departments, public schools, post offices, dams, bridges, etc. etc. That we may not all have children in school or have homes catch on fire or be victims of crime is immaterial: many of our fellow Americans do, and these public services are available for their benefit through the payments we all make to underwrite them...and we are assured they will be there for us if we will ever need them. Plus, as you point out with the example of our highways, there are ongoing larger benefits to us all from these public works even if we never will have direct them for them.

Universal access to healthcare should be a similar public service, for the same reasons and with the same benefit to all. That you dismiss it as "subsidizing some parasite" reveals your own contempt for your fellow human beings, as well as your blindness to how easily you might find yourself in a situation without a job, or without healthcare, and with a serious personal or family illness to have to contend with.

None of us are indemnified against finding ourselves broke and flat on our backs, and many of the people in America who are underinsured or who have no insurance at all are working (or would like to be working but cannot find jobs) but still cannot afford insurance or cannot find an insurer who will sell them a policy or have insurance that barely covers them when illness strikes or who had insurance but have had their policies canceled by their insurers due to so-called "pre-existing" conditions.

The true "parasites" in our society are the CEOs and CFOs of our large corporations who make millions on our backs while they rape us for every cent we have.

Hoosier Daddy is right, he is not your indentured servant and his money is not your to spend. Your problem is not his obligation (or mine)

And that is what bothers Cookie the most. I'm fortunate and living the gilded life because when I was laid off I went out and got another job and have been living the life of liesure ever since.

I found out I was talking with a moron who decries the government for being in the pocket of the corporations and conducting worldwide genocide yet he has no problem letting them run the health care system.

And yes I got mine and others need to get theirs. I have my own damn family to take care of and provide for, I don't really want the added burden of taking care of someone else's too. My taxes already pay for a plethora of health and human services that those in need can apply for not to mention the money I donate to private charities. You take the individuals who truly cannot afford insurance or uninsurable and you're a far cry from the fictional 47 million ininsured, most of whom are illegals and those who choose to spend thier money on something other than insurance.

"You take the individuals who truly cannot afford insurance or uninsurable and you're a far cry from the fictional 47 million ininsured, most of whom are illegals and those who choose to spend thier money on something other than insurance."

As the Sub-Geniuses say, you're relaxing in the safety of your own delusions.

What? Nothing about Scalia writing in a dissent to the Troy Davis decision that even innocence isn't a good enough reason to not execute someone if they had a fair trial?

Oh, yeah. Scalia is a conservative. You only like to point out when liberals say something jaw-droppingly stupid.

Actually, you've touched upon something that's always morbidly fascinated me as a layman - the idea that a trial can be legally fair, even if the end result (convicting an innocent person) does not square with reality.

Apparently, this is not unique to Justice Scalia, but a widely held legal precept.

I've heard tell that if a person is wrongly convicted of murder in a "fair" trial, and is sentenced to death, and new evidence surfaces proving his or her innocence, that the person's only recourse is to be pardoned by the governor of the state.

As a layman, I find that incredible. But I'm sure the legal types here will explain why that's perfectly reasonable.

hdhouse, When someone does something like make an Obama/Joker poster or gets pointed out as "yes, indeed, the conservatives are this stupid"... it actually matters that the Joker poster boy is a Palestinian-American who prefers Kucinich and the You-tube "Obama is a Nazi" lady is all for La Rouche.

Hmmm...I'm a little suprised, not to say puzzled, that expressing a little bit of disdain for someone who aggressively spouts an "I've got mine, fuck you!" attitude marks me as a "classist fuck," but, what the hey.

Spoken like one dumb motherfucker. Nowhere have I ever spouted "I got mine, fuck you!" because that's your perceptive failing going through your screen of marxist prejudice you steaming pile of shit. I work hard for what I have achieved in trying to provide for me and my family only to have be burdened day and night that I need to contribute more for the sake of being my brothers keeper while leftist clusterfucks like you try to berate and brow-beat people like me by saying that we conservatives are tight-fisted, money-grubbing capitalist pigs that don't care for those that are less fortunate than we are. Trying to shame us for being the haves against your have-nots. What the fuck is wrong with you that ended up being a maudlin sap that weeps for those that mostly ended up where they wanted to, at the bottom? You want to save the downtrodden? Then spend everything you own to do it, but shut the fuck up about trying to compel others to do it for you as a function of your envious classist guilt.

Fuck you asshole while your at it, you can constantly try to explain to my wife and daughter why I had to move over 500 miles away to while she holds down the fort back home and I get to chase the money because there was no work for people with my talent and skills where I live because it's an employers market and watching wages get undercut to the point as to be unsustainable even after a lifestyle downsizing. Then to watch as my government wants to fuck me all over again by demanding that I take on their healthcare initiative all with a yes sir, anything you say sir, thank you sir may I have another. All the while I see you bitch, moan, and complain how your poor little tax money is going to fund wars and alleged torture you don't like. Well boo fucking hoo you sad sack of crap. Go cry about it someone who cares.

It's marxist stooges like you that have brought this great country to the point it is now with your constant emotionally ladened, envy-guilt based ideology that seeks to steal from one to give to another for the sheer sake of ausaging you and your kinds feelings so you can walk around and think that soaking it to the successful to give to the unsuccessful is a job well done. Please, let me buy you a one way ticket to the marxist paradise of your choice with my own hard earned money so I can get you out of my country and not burden it with your pap any longer.

By the way, Methadras, given your tale of woe--which I take seriously--you would be greatly helped by some of the initiatives that liberals--not fake libs like Obama, but real ones like Kucinich or Sanders--would like to see passed. That you are so resistant to government programs that would offer you and your fellow burdened Americans be not quite so burdened shows how badly you have bought into the propaganda funneled our way day and night by the corporate media. You accept and applaud policies that fuck you and yours, while rejecting polices that would benefit you.

As with another poster here, you need to read in context or learn to recognize rhetoric: I do object, yes I do, to my tax dollars being spent to imprison, torture and murder masses of people abroad, but my comments were in response to comments by Hoosier Daddy--and you, it seems--expressing resentment at your tax dollars being spent on other people's needs. Well, be consistent: gripe if you will about your tax dollars going to help provide care to your fellow Americans, but gripe as well about the billions more being spent--out of your tax dollars--to obliterate human beings around the world.

In short, that's the way it goes: we can't select which government programs our money is spent on, so we must try to influence the government to implement programs we agree with and to do away with programs we reject. You deplore the idea of a dollar of yours helping another be treated by a doctor, I deplore a dollar of mine funding the destruction of another human being...but as long as a majority of Americans allow it to continue, I have to suck it up. If the majority of Americans who favor health care reform with a public option prevail in getting such a bill passed--slim chance of that in my mind--then you have to suck it up. At least you'll know lives are being helped rather than hurt, if you care.

"And I am ALL for the mighty moral pacifists to go elsewhere where they are not protected by the icky-poo militants.

It's so easy for you to whine about how moral you are to object to war when you're surrounded by sabers facing outward."

There hasn't been a single war we've engaged in during my lifetime that has been necessary or that has served to preserve our lives or liberty, and we've killed many many people around the world in my lifetime.