Wednesday, June 28, 2006

APC Trailer - Fire Dogs 2

Here is another trailor that Eric Bauza made.

It's from Firedogs 2. This is a story that I wrote as a sequel for Firedogs in 1990, right after it aired.

The firechief in Firedogs one was inspired by Ralph Bakshi. After I got a lot of fan mail from it I decided to do a sequel where the Firechief invites Ren and Stimpy to move in with him and be his partners-just as Ralph once offered me to be his partner.

Almost all the scenes in this cartoon happened in real life. It's more of a documentary than fiction.

Incidentally, everyone who likes modern cartoons-cartoons after 1998 or so owes a big debt to Ralph. Ralph saved cartoons and cartoonists and gave us back our medium.

He started the whole revolution in TV cartoons in 1987 with "Bakshi's Adventures of Mighty Mouse". Those were the first "creator-driven" cartoons done in 25 years.

The show broke a lot of ground and hugely influenced everything that followed-Ren and Stimpy, Roger Rabbit, The Simpsons, Tiny Toons-even Batman. (Bruce Timm was my assistant and then a top layout man on Mighty Mouse and that's when he first got a taste of angular, stylized drawing.)

I instituted a new TV version of Directors' units to produce the cartoons, rather than using the crappy Hanna Barbera factory system that everyone else was doing on TV.

I combined the TV factory system with the old Warner Bros. system and then 2 years later refined it to produce Ren and Stimpy.

None of what followed Mighty Mouse would have happened had Ralph not protected a bunch of cartoonists from the hazards of network executives and cartoon "writers".

Many of the scenes in Firedogs 2 are scenes witnessed during the year and a half that Mighty Mouse was produced.

If you hate poo jokes, you will hate this, but a story about Ralph would be a lie without a good load of poo.

Incidentally, this cartoon suffers from some piss-poor timing, because we had just started the new episodes and were trying out a new system of shooting storyboards and timing them to music. A lot of the gags would play better if I could go back and cut them tighter.I apologize in advance! (Just run it in fast forward!)

BTW, Ralph did his own voice in the cartoon. The guy has a great sense of humor!

96 comments:

Hey John.. I remember this episode from when it ran on Spike TV.. This and the one where they were living in some homeless guys mouth and then a spitoon.. I havnt seen them since.. I left you a comment on Eddies blog but Ill ask you again.. Its about your influence on the gross closeups.. I thought they were influenced from the old Tom & Jerry's.

John, this episode is very odd to me. Knowing your insight, and knowing about Ralph Bakshi makes the cartoon better, but why would you expect the average Spike TV viewer to understand this cartoon? I don't think most people know who he is. Or were you just expecting that audience to think the pooping was funny?

It's not that people don't know who Ralph Bakshi is, it's the fact that the animation isn't that good compared to other episodes, and it's just really gross. Then again, I haven't seen the entire episode. but that scene on the crapper isn't funny at all to me. I'll stay buy the DVD, though.

>They are a combination of Basil Wolverton grossness and details and the painted closeups of thumbs and faces in old cartoons.

Like the eye in Draftee Daffy? The giant in Jack Wabbit & The Beanstalk? Uhhh...what else? There was lots! They did that on Spongebob alot, too (but SpongeBob's trademark was its use of live action.)

>Incidentally, everyone who likes modern cartoons-cartoons after 1998 or so owe a big debt to Ralph.

He started the whole revolution in TV cartoons in 1987 with "Bakshi's Adventures of Mighty Mouse". Those were the first "creator-driven" cartoons done in 25 years.

I'm inclined to agree. I've seen the Mighty Mouse episdoes on youtube and they're really Wacky and they remind me of all those early 90's cartoons. A Pup Named Scooby Doo, which was superior to the original, was made by Tom Ruegger, who was influenced by Mighty Mouse, and he later made Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, and Pinky & The Brain. All the prime time animated sitcoms came from the Simpsons, which came from MM. All the action series came from Batman. Every other cartoon these days, (I can name them off at random: Teenage Robot, Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends, My Gym Parner's A Monkey, Fairly Odd Parents, and all those other flat fake 50's shows) came from Dexter's Lab, which came from 2 Stupid Dogs, which came from Ren & Stimpy and MM.

Hell, three of Jeff Harris' top 15 turning points in animation supplementing Jerry's list)came from MM. Here's what he todl em about MM:

"Personally, I think that the work he did on Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures nearly outshined everything he has done (I said nearly). What he (and Mr. Bakshi) did on Mighty Mouse set the standard of what the 90s should have been. Ren and Stimpy only continued what Mighty Mouse created."

Anybody who can watch the firechief's body as he walks into his apartment and not bust a gut at how funny just the SHAPE is, is not my friend.

Jorge Garrido said... ...it's the fact that the animation isn't that good compared to other episodes, and it's just really gross. ...but that scene on the crapper isn't funny at all to me.

The straining-to-take-a-dump sequence is classic, to me... I might wear out my DVD at that point. Whatever might be tchnically weak about it, and I can't spot it, I certainly know of no better or funnier depiction of this process. In fact the only one I know of is the cat on the RIPPING FRIENDS, and it's pretty funny, too.

This makes me tend to beleive that you are bugged by someone going there at all, as Michael Barrier seemed to be. To me it's like, "okay, gross BOOGERS is fine, but gross POO, well, that's where I get off this ride."

And how gross is it, really? -- the poo's not a dump, it's a can of jellied cranberry. Too fun. I'm just glad I can appreciate it, and that JK had the cajones to do it. Nobody else would. Maybe Plympton might, but not like this.

When Ren said "wheel" his head spun around. That was completely unexpected, and really kinda funny. Did that cost like a million dollars to animate? Why the hell don't I see more stuff like that nowadays?

People wanting to see some production art from Firedogs 2, see the site linked in my name in this post for some drawings about 14 drawings into the RnS APC section (three of them very Wolverton-esque, resembling some stuff from Onwards and Upwards more than anything that actually showed up in FD2). Also in the RnS Firedogs 2 car art folder. Plus there's some art from the relevant Mighty Mouse series under "Mighty Mouse the New Adventures".

Well, I'm happy to see some self-criticism on this one, mr. John K. I found Firedogs 2 Part One extremely poor, except for that part with the flute. I liked the concept of the real life sitcom too, but it would probably have worked better in a shorter way. Part Two was better, but I still found it was too gross. However I did enjoy the animation and Ren and Stimpy's behaviour during the whole thing. I don't think Ralph's is such a great cartoon character, but it's not bad.

I especially dislike when Stimpy is wearing that shirt full of poo in Part One. I even feel sorry for Stimpy (though he seems to be happy anyway).

I like when Ralph is teaching them about the facts of life and Ren and Stimpy learn to smoke. I love the sexy girl in this cartoon too, she is one of the most good looking babes you have drawn. Wish she could have had a bigger role.

If I had to rate this it'll probably be a 6.8/10. Without the gross gags and with better timing it could be a good 8/10. I believe the story could have been a little more complex too and perhaps Ren and Stimpy could have had a little more screen time (it seemed Ralph had most of the dialogue here). However, Ralph's voice acting is quite funny.

To sum up, it's not that I'm mad because I didn't love the cartoon. It's more that I'm sad cause I think it could have been more cool with similar ingredients. I liked it better than Onward and Upward, though.

Incidentally I can't see how this could be real if not in an extremely exagerated, distorted way.

I remember fondly 'The New Adventures of Mighty Mouse.' The characters in that series were amazing...The Cow, Bat-Bat (and the Bug Wonder) and Elway and the Tree Weasals. My favorite character was the insane, mad-scientist character named Pete, who was planning to steal all the left socks in the world. (Pete was the first insane character I remember seeing in a cartoon series)

'The New Adventures of Mighty Mouse' did have an influence on later animated series, like Tiny Toons. However, the extreme animation from MM melded very well with the extreme characters in the series. The animation in Tiny Toons did not work as well with the characters.

'The New Adventures of Mighty Mouse' was THE cartoon that stirred my interest in animation...even more then any cartoon series since.

>If you can't laugh at poop, you may as well tune in Lifetime Channel and be done with it.

Why does it have to be one of the other? See, that's why I like Ren & Stimpy, if I don't like the poo scene or the poo cartoon, there's lots of other cartoons. Variety is the name of the game. If people don't like John's psychodramas, there's always a lighthearted episode. So If I don't wannt gross humour, I'll go watch Stimpy's Fan Club.

>>Why would anyone think a cartoon about a fart is entertaining?

Son Of Stimpy was very popular. So was Mr. Hankey <<

They were popular DESPITE the fact that they were poop and farts.

I've never seen Son Of Stimpy but apparently it's not just about a fart, it's about serious themes of motherhood and stuff. Is the fart like a floating gas cloud or something? That's not that gross, compared to poop.

Mr. Hankey sucks. The fact that he's a poo makes him less funny. He gets lots of good lines and I love Christmas specials, and the points those guys make about Christmas, traditions and commercialism overshadow the fact that HE'S A POO. He'd be funnier if he were a Christmas Ornament or something. John, if you made that cartoon about Nutty the talking dump like you wanted to, it wouldn't have been funny. Well, the IDEA that the main character was a poo wouldn't have been funny. Gross does not equal funny. I'm sure it would have had great animation, posing ang humour like all your cartoons,and it probably would've overshadowed the fact that it's about poo. but unlike Ren & Stimpy, the poo would have been there all the time. There'd be no variety, it'd be one long poo joke. Gross.

>The Ralph cartoon is about character. There are only 2 poo scenes out of about 20 scenes

Ok, you get that, but you have to admit they're long scenes and they kind of stand out more than the car scene or something else.

>But John,

How was The Simpsons influenced by Ren & Stimpy if The Simpsons were created in 1986 and got the show in 1989

You have your dates wrong, Mighty Mouse was before The Simpsons. Besides, Matt's crappy filler shorts were nothing like what the Simpsons became. Wikipedia says:

The show was a huge springboard for many cartoonists and animators who would later become extremely famous, including John Kricfalusi (creator of The Ren and Stimpy Show), Bruce W. Timm (producer of Batman: The Animated Series), Jim Reardon (writer for Tiny Toon Adventures and director of many Simpsons episodes), Tom Minton (writer and producer for many Warner Bros. television cartoons, including Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, The Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries, Baby Looney Tunes and Duck Dodgers), Lynne Naylor (co-founder of Spümcø, character designer for Batman and storyboard artist for The Powerpuff Girls and Cow and Chicken among other work), Rich Moore (animation director for The Simpsons and Futurama) and others.

>because it's funny and the character of Ralph Bakshi is richer than any cartoon character ever.

That's because he's REAL. I'd love to meet this bastard, it'd be an adventure.

...Matt's crappy filler shorts were nothing like what the Simpsons became.

I think they were better than what the simpsons has become --at least in terms of something funny just to look at. They reveled in how incompetent they were. Now they are all clean and round and on-model and consequently duller.

Next to "Onward & Upward" and "Ren Seeks Help" I have to say that "Fire Dogs 2" is my all time favorite APC episode. I taped the first and second half of the episode when they first premierd and I never stoped watching them since. I love Ralph's pooping scenes. I can't stop laughing at them. I love the line where he sez "Man theres nothing like a good quap to help a man unwind". "Hey John" How did the Ralph Bakshi a.k.a. Honeymooners parody come about? Also why dose Ralph keep calling Ren & Stimpy Tommy & Eddie? I don't understand it but it's funny as hell. Can't wait for the Lost Episodes DVD to come out!

Ah, man that's cool! Until now I had only seen a brief clip of Fire Dogs 2 (the poop scene) and wondered how this was a sequel to Fire Dogs. Now I know! I'd love to order The Lost Episodes on DVD, but I'm a bit reluctant to for fear that it won't work on my Australian DVD player (due to region coding).I'm not really a big fan of gross-out humour, often I find such gags to be gratuitous, but every once in a while I see something that makes me bust a gut, like in the CatDog episode Neferkitty, where Cat blows dust off an old book and Dog inhales it and sneezes snot all over him. I can't explain why I found it funny; I think it was just the way it was drawn and animated, and the expressions on the characters' faces after the gag were priceless! And then there's the world's most environmentally-friendly canine, Recycle Dog. I have no idea who the genius behind this is, but he obviously has way too much time on his hands!

once again the shit that comes out of jorge garrido's mouth is negative as hell. Show some respect. Who the hell are you to have the right to bitch about ANY of the great entertainment John has put out there for us. If you dissaprove of everything so damn much, why the hell do you keep commin back here?

I appreciate the crap scene, but maybe because I have to live with flushing my toilet MANUALLY with a bucket feverishly every single day because I have the landlord of hell who doesn't FIX anything. My landlord is something else btw. (anecdote time!!!)I come home one day, my ONLY window, GONE! Replaced with wood. PAINTED inside out. Any warning up front? No way! I call the guy up, he wasn't even planning to REPLACE it.

"You ARE going to put an actual. Window! back, aren't you?""No.""No!??? Uhm. I need my window back.""You want the window back?'"YES!!! We didn't even DISCUSS this. It is DARK. It's day out and I'm standing here in the dark. I would really like some light.""We'll discuss it tomorrow."Next day:"I'm replacing the window in 3 weeks."

We're 2 months down the road. I'm still sitting it the dark. I can't fuck him over because I'm in illigal under rent and he'll fuck me over harder if I do it.

Lesson? NEVER go in illigal under rent NEVER. EVER. AGAIN! AAARGHHH!

*end anecdote time*

Anyway. I LOVE Bakshi. I watched those new adventures of mighty mouse not knowing it was a spoof, but HIGHLY entertained because they were so much funnier than the ones I remembered watching as a kid. It's rare when stuff like that gets BETTER than the memory. It wasn't until a year ago when I realized who was behind it and that you were involved in it too. Absolutely awesome. I miss seeing them. Can we get those on DVD somewhere?

I liked this cartoon...I'm not sure that I recognized much in the way of timing problems or anything. It plays a lot like "Mans Best Friend"...Ren and Stimpy go to live with a big scary insane person, hilarity ensues.

Really the animation seemed more like classic Ren and Stimpy animation than many of the other ACP 'toons. Really, this cartoon fits in better with the original series than most of the others.

The only real criticism is it's too long. Cut half of it and you'd have a really good cartoon...as it is it kind of meanders a bit. It's hard to really justify this being being the longest R&S cartoon ever.

Come on, folks. Is this material what you would actually call "wide appeal"? I mean, I love it, but can understand why many people don't.

I have lots of firiends that couldn't wait for the APS Ren & Stimpy to come out, only to get to the Onward & Upward spitoon scene, and be turned off forever. "I Liked the old Ren & Stimpy better" is their anthem cry.

Now, I have Onward and Upward on tape, and love it, but having others watch it is like showing off how much high-intensity green Mexican pepper juice I can drink without making a face.

Is it a cartoon for anyone? No. But how many, actually, is it for? When I do my stand-up comedy, I try never to forget that I'm there to entertain an audience. Not myself.

>>roberto gonzalez said:Incidentally I can't see how this could be real if not in an extremely exagerated, distorted way.<<

That's only because you haven't met my dad.

Alright, I've got a Ralph Bakshi question: Why is it that when he hit the big time in the late 70's so many of my animation school friends hated him? I mean, they just lambasted the guy. Mostly his name would be invoked as the punchline to some prematurely bitter art student's joke, accompanied by a Greek chorus of know-it-all, jaded, teenage groans. And then there'd be the dreaded Trivia Olympics.

Animation Nerd #1: What was the name of Dudley Do-Right's horse?

All the other Animation Nerds, in unison, smugly: Oh, come ON, EVERYONE knows that one!

When I do my stand-up comedy, I try never to forget that I'm there to entertain an audience. Not myself.

How funny you must be if you don't laugh at your own material. Do you do stand-up at Denny's? Do they applaud, or just clank their aluminum walkers?

Alright, I've got a Ralph Bakshi question: Why is it that when he hit the big time in the late 70's so many of my animation school friends hated him?

They could not understand how a guy working independently with low budgets on adult-oriented material had any reason to live. And they wanted to grow up and work on cute, happy sidekick characters for "Disney's Return of the Same Sameness 3"

...When you mix 2 minutes of sewage running into 28 minutes of clear spring water it just makes it taste even better! :p

An advocate of odorless, colorless, and tasteless entertainment. At least you like your cartoons wet.

"They could not understand how a guy working independently with low budgets on adult-oriented material had any reason to live. And they wanted to grow up and work on cute, happy sidekick characters for "Disney's Return of the Same Sameness 3" "

The thing is,Ralph's stuff rarely is decent or good. His work is either execellent or crap. I think it's a shame his TV show "Spicy City" did get cancelled, that was a good recovery after "Cool World".

An advocate of odorless, colorless, and tasteless entertainment. At least you like your cartoons wet.

Actually, I like mine mixed with tang. :p

I advocate a full range of entertainment choices for adults, unimpeded by focus group-think, and unhindered by the delicate, easliy offended little rosebuds of the world.

Your opinion is nice...for me to poop on.

Oh, I noticed a little Don Martin in the plunger drawings. Don took poo poo to it's highest level.

Btw, I never said gross-out humor isn't funny. My point is it's the cheap and easy way to get a laugh...and has been done 376,333.23333333 times before (I've got in on my clicker). No way to advance an artform.

I can't imagine why the Fire Chief refers to R&S as "Tommy and Eddie" throughout both Fire Dogs I and Fire Dogs II. And Tom Minton and Eddie Fitzgerald, who Ralph called by their first names a great deal of the time, just can't imagine, either. But as great as Fire Dogs II is, and it's a work of sheer genius that puts everything on the current Cartoon Network schedule to shame, nothing can capture the awesome force of life that is Ralph Bakshi himself. Not even Ralph playing Ralph in the Honeymooners live action segment captures the jaw-dropping intensity of the man. The technology to capture Ralph's essense has yet to be invented. This country needs Ralph Bakshi in Washington before it turns completely to shit. I have it on good authority that he wants to be a Navy Seal. C'mon, Rumsfeld! I know that you and Gonzales read this blog! Pull some strings, you sick little bastard!

>Next to "Onward & Upward" and "Ren Seeks Help" I have to say that "Fire Dogs 2" is my all time favorite APC episode.

There were only three episodes, though.

>once again the shit that comes out of jorge garrido's mouth is negative as hell. Show some respect. Who the hell are you to have the right to bitch about ANY of the great entertainment John has put out there for us. If you dissaprove of everything so damn much, why the hell do you keep commin back here?

How is stating my opinion not showing respect? I'm one of John's biggest fans but I'm not a yes-man. If I don't like something, Ill say it.

That moment where the original fireman character transforms into Bakshi is fantasic, and possibly the highlight of the episode. Am I the only one who didn't find the poo joke that gross, and actually laughed through it?

Btw, I never said gross-out humor isn't funny. My point is it's the cheap and easy way to get a laugh...and has been done 376,333.23333333 times before (I've got in on my clicker). No way to advance an artform.

You've seen a cartoon character take a dump 376,333.23333333 times?

What's cheap and easy about it? Half the people here are ready to form a lynch mob.

Sophistication and restraint are often erroneously credited as being more legitimate than vulgar, crass, pointless and stupid. There is great art in this particular vulgar, crass, pointless stupidity.

Even Chaucer had people sticking their asses out the window and farting.

It's a formula that's been overused to get a laugh. Everyone knows a lot of people will get a chuckle or two out of a poo poo joke.

But the execution of this gag is not cheap or easy; it's artful, if not tasteful. YOU try drawing it as well. Just because it is about a dookie it is no less work. Dookie is not a formula, it's a theme, just like sex is a theme. You could say sex is an easy laugh. Nobody should do sex jokes; they are so overdone.

The repitition is in the handling. I've never seen dookie handled this way before.

I actually admit I found the part with Stimpy taking the crap and driving with it out of town kind of funny, especially the seatbelt, mainly because of the absurdity of the situation. Still, like Jorge Garrido said there are two poo scenes that are longer and stand out more than anything else. Besides the one in Firedogs Two Part One is terribly unfunny for me as it's all the middle part in Onward And Upward.

You can say I'm not a good fan or whatever but in the old Ren and Stimpy I think the disgusting gags were played perfectly, in a way they were gross but they didn't distract you too much from the rest of the cartoon.

Still I agree with those who say there is more than poo in this cartoon and it's actually quite exagerated (though understandable, especially in a wide audience) to hate it for two scenes.

Maybe there's trailer of Onward and Upward coming next and I could extend but that's another story. I actually can't watch the middle part of that cartoon without feeling completely sick. I like a couple of things here and there, and I have rewatched the forst and later scenes about three times but I usually fast forward during the middle part. I still don't hate it, but I don't really enjoy it. And I would watch ANY cartoon with Ren and Stimpy,cause I love the characters. Imagine a guy who is not such a rabid fan trying to watch that.

And please nobody tell me I'm not a fan or anything, like Jorge Garrido I'm just expressing my opinion here. I think everything Spumco had done, including classic Ren and Stimpy, Spumco comic book, Fuck Her Gently, Weekend Pussy Hunt, The Goddamn George Liquor Show, Jetsons shorts, Boo Boo Runs Wild, the Bjork Video and Ren Seeks Help (I haven't watched Ripping Friends yet) is between extremely good and perfection. And I kind of like Firedogs 2 Part 2. But I still don't understand what's so interesting about the really gross gags.

But I still don't understand what's so interesting about the really gross gags.

You don't have to, do you? I don't understand why anyone likes most of the movies that win best picture oscars. I just watch what I like, instead. I might tell my friends that THE ENGLISH PATIENT stinks like a dead pig, but why would I go on the internet to tell you, especially if you like it, or if you created it? Instead, I realize it was not without artistic merit, even if it means nothing to me personally.

Well...when I create something I really like to know what people think about it, even if they hate it. Maybe I won't listen to me, maybe I will, but I'll happy to read it as long as they don't insult me or something. Of course I think a creator should do mainly whatever he likes, though. But I think opinions are interesting. That's why there's a commentary option in a blog.

Also I just download all the APC episodes I can and I watch them. I usually watch everything I download, it's a lot of time spent in the thing and there are things I always like in Spumco cartoons. Do you suggest I should start watching the episode, then turning it off if there's a part I don't like? I prefer to watch the whole thing to have an opinion and also, to enjoy it. It's not as I wouldn't give a shit about the stuff there. Maybe I should stop watching OaU, in fact like I said, I almost had, except for a couple of scenes. But I like Firedogs 2 Part 2 for the most part, it was only my comment on it.

Anyway I don't want to become a pain in the ass to anybody here. I already gave my opinion about that. I'm not going to insist, your answer is kind of reasonable. I don't really mind. I can only hope next Spumco cartoons will have less of this stuff. It actually seems Altruists and Naked Beach Frenzy were mostly free of gross-well, it's more than gross for me- stuff like that and Ren Seeks Help was too.

Also I'm expecting to buy the complete Ren and Stimpy dvd when it's available! I download the stuff cause it's the only way I can't see it. And I prefer to buy the complete collection because, yes, I prefer the classics, but I also want to own and watch all the APC ones and Altruists looks like a one I will really enjoy (the art looks amazing).

Do you suggest I should start watching the episode, then turning it off if there's a part I don't like?

Maybe fast forward or bookmark. My copy of Peter Jackson's KING KONG starts at the monkey.

Your answer was kind of reasonable, too. If JohnK doesn't mind, it's nothing to me, either. I just tend to think a little negative criticism goes a long way from armchair quarterbacks. I'm an artist too, and hearing somebody tell me they don't like something usually has never meant anything to me, except that I know that's not who it was for. Rarely does somebody comment with enough insight to help me improve.

Although I am clearly here to promote a point of view, in the end everybody can say whatever they want, just as I have now said MORE than I wanted.

This was my favorite episode of the Adult Party tv series. I'm not one for turd jokes but I had no problem with the scenes in this episode. What really mattered though was Ralph Bakshi as he pretty much carried the entire episode with his great dialogue. All you have to do is record him talk, then add snazzy animation around it and you'll have an amazing cartoon already.

Oh, well that makes all the difference in the world. If you draw poo poo or a steaming fart in a more stylistic way, that justifies it all.

Dookie is not a formula, it's a theme, just like sex is a theme.

Toilet jokes are theme and a formula. A theme is the subject, the formula is a rule or method used or repeated over and over...it even becomes a trademark of some. It's a cliche, no matter how you look at it; a method for laughs used over and over and over.

Yes in fact it does, and your failure to acknowlege it makes you so superior to us sycophants, who enjoy animation for it's own sake, when it's done well and is funny too look at, regardless of whether or not there is dookie. How many times did Moe slap Curly? The same things happen a lot in comedy if you want to admit it. That could hardly be the point.

The real point is you are a poophobe, and you want to sound sophisticated about it.

Here's the point you are about to miss-- Moe slapping Curly over and over is not funny at all. What's funny is what Curly does in response to getting slapped, and --here it comes --it's different every time.

That's the point. If you watch the chief shit, it's funny. If all you think about is that John presenting the idea of shit because it is supposed to be automatically funny, you are missing the visual humor. Why are you here critiquing animation if you don't have eyes?

The real point is you are a poophobe, and you want to sound sophisticated about it.

Oh NO! A "poophobe". You just made that up, didn't you? :P Do you know what an ad hominem is?

Who's afraid of the big bad poo? Not me. I just think John K is creative and bright enough to make cartoons that don't rely on old formulas.

That's the point. If you watch the chief shit, it's funny. If all you think about is that John presenting the idea of shit because it is supposed to be automatically funny, you are missing the visual humor. Why are you here critiquing animation if you don't have eyes?

I have eyes. If I watch the most stunning visual representation of toilet humor (farts, shit, whatever), it's still the SOS. Put varnish on it. Yeah, now it's beautiful crap. Oh, but it's funny shit. Some of it, but it's an old idea with a new look. It's a hackneyed idea with a new paintjob.

Just some constructive criticism. There's always room for improvement. I don't hate JohnK or any of his cartoons, including this one. I think his video for Bjork was pure genius. I'm sure you've seen it.

As an aside, here's an idea: Go ahead and make a cartoon of the 3 Stooges - only use animals. See how many ideas are truly funny. See how many different ways you can make the "Curly" character respond in a unique and funny way to a poke in the eyes. What you'll eventually do is just regurgitate all the 3 Stooges ideas...NOT funny. No, wait...make the characters more visually appealing. That would be progress. A parody might be funny. Puking up old ideas is not funny.

As far as I can see, your critcism is neither constructive, nor instructive. in fact, it has been de-constructed.

it's still the SOS. Put varnish on it. Yeah, now it's beautiful crap. Oh, but it's funny shit. Some of it, but it's an old idea with a new look. It's a hackneyed idea with a new paintjob.

"It's not funny because it's about shitting, and somebody else already did shitting," is pretty much what you've said. How torturoulsy stupid this is. Don't make me explain it to you.

This doesn't have to be about JohnK backslapping, or ass- kissing, if we don't have you to say stupid things. It could be about intelligent questions and discovery and expanding your awareness. But why should you let that happen?

"It's not funny because it's about shitting, and somebody else already did shitting," is pretty much what you've said. How torturoulsy stupid this is. Don't make me explain it to you.

Btw, I never said gross-out humor isn't funny. My point is it's the cheap and easy way to get a laugh.

It's a formula that's been overused to get a laugh.

Toilet jokes are theme and a formula. A theme is the subject, the formula is a rule or method used or repeated over and over...it even becomes a trademark of some. It's a cliche, no matter how you look at it; a method for laughs used over and over and over.

I just think John K is creative and bright enough to make cartoons that don't rely on old formulas.

As an aside, here's an idea: Go ahead and make a cartoon of the 3 Stooges - only use animals. See how many ideas are truly funny. See how many different ways you can make the "Curly" character respond in a unique and funny way to a poke in the eyes. What you'll eventually do is just regurgitate all the 3 Stooges ideas...NOT funny. No, wait...make the characters more visually appealing. That would be progress. A parody might be funny. Puking up old ideas is not funny.

It's a hackneyed idea with a new paintjob.

Do you want me to explain every line to you? Do you own a dictionary?

AN OVERUSED IDEA...not only about potty humor, genius. ANY OVERUSED IDEA.

You think drawing an old idea in a stylized way makes it a new idea. FINE. I don't.

So for the record, are you saying the work in question IS or IS NOT funny? --Because all this time it seems you have been making a rationale for "cheap and easy" as negatives to be avoided. So, is it funny or isn't it?

I think you've said enough. Let John K defend himself, BY HIMSELF, O.K.?

Whether I agree with you or not, I think you're trying to make a big argument out of something that really isn't that important. You seem to be egging these people on, rather than just STOP TALKING ABOUT IT, and letting bygones be bygones!

So for the record, are you saying the work in question IS or IS NOT funny? --Because all this time it seems you have been making a rationale for "cheap and easy" as negatives to be avoided. So, is it funny or isn't it?

Have fun assuming whatever you want. I explained this over and over:

I have eyes. If I watch the most stunning visual representation of toilet humor (farts, shit, whatever), it's still the SOS. Put varnish on it. Yeah, now it's beautiful crap. Oh, but it's funny shit. Some of it, but it's an old idea with a new look. It's a hackneyed idea with a new paintjob.

Where are all these other examples of the shopworn, time-tested, animated take-a-shit gag, anyway? Popeye, Yosemite Sam? I know... Minnie Mouse.

POTTY HUMOR...not just shit. Not just animated. I said it was a cheap and easy cliched formula to get a laugh. How many cartoons do you know of that show shit walking around? South Park? Is that funny to you too? Hi-dee-ho! They even use brown smears for high quality fun.

JohnK has used potty humor ever since I first saw his cartoons.

Don Martin used take-a-shit gags, All in the Family, Dumb and Dumber (explosive diarrhea scene), SNL uses the idea over and over, Adult Comix use the idea..loads and loads of movies and sit-coms use potty humor, The Simpsons. It's an stupid, easy, cheap way to get a laugh. PATWEEEE! KERSPLUNK!

I'm not going in circles any more with you. And I'm tired of you trying to talk down to me.

I had friend who said John should quit with the boogers and fart stuff. That was before he saw SON OF STIMPY. I watched him bust a gut over it. I'm not defending John, he doesn't need it. I'm defending appreciation, and talking about how to do it.

I love the APC episodes. I like at the end how John does Ren's voice with the filthy socks and destitute living. Also Eric seems to nail Stimpy's voice basically head on in this ep. Good work. I'ma gonna so buy the dvd.

The trailer was removed for "copyright infringement". If you or Mr. Bauza still has it, can one of you still put it back up?

Also, I've seen Firedogs II over a dozen times now, and the only thing I don't believe really happened was "Screw you Charlie, screw you Lucy". I may have the names wrong, but it still seems a bit nonsensical.