Have you seen Casey's record as coach? This is his first winning season. Up until now, his best season was a 34 win season.

By the way, he's not "literally" the joke of the coaching profession. Not sure how Casey's comment amounts to VDN being a joke. lol

Casey is at the bottom of the barrel of coaches. he he...

clipper*joe

04/08/2014 - 06:22 PM PST

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How do they look now based on what VDN did versus what Casey did? Funny stuff...

CP3Heliflopter

04/08/2014 - 07:07 PM PST

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Casey is a mediocre coach at best. Honestly I think VDN is better and I consider him an averagish coach. Ask Raptors fans what they think about Casey. They will tell you how horrible he is. Watching the Raptors play sometimes I wonder if they were outright trying to tank with the dumb **** Casey did.

cleepers

04/08/2014 - 07:28 PM PST

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^ Casey makes Vinny look like Popovich. He hacked DJ for like 8 minutes of gametime in the 3rd quarter when they came to town, when our stars were resting and DJ was in with the bench. His reward? ...they closed a 20-point gap to 18. The quarter took over 40 minutes, and our horses would have been rested enough to play the entire 4th... if we'd needed them.

The man's a f**king idiot... fortunately, I was sitting close enough to him to tell him so.

JQuick32

04/08/2014 - 09:57 PM PST

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Casey is mediocre, but still better than VDN. The Raptors would be chilling in the basement alongside the Sixers and Bucks with VDN as coach.

Agent0

04/08/2014 - 10:06 PM PST

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Not sure there's really much support for your argument JQuick. Vinny isn't a high level coach, but Vinny has actually done a decent job of getting wins relative to his talent level. Dwyane Casey was almost forced into coaching better because Ujiri made moves to get rid of the players he didn't know how to use properly (eg: Rudy Gay). Let's not get carried away now.

I think this is actually because he doesn't have good luck in job interviews where VDN has also been a candidate, this isn't in any way saying anything about Vinny's coaching ability. Don't reach.

clipper*joe

04/09/2014 - 12:56 AM PST

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All indicators, facts, and reality says otherwise. Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

namzug

04/09/2014 - 10:12 AM PST

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Now that is an argument to be had, on who is better. Vinny or Casey? I think Casey has had much less talent, but he hasn't shown anything with the chances he's had outside of maybe this year. Which it's hard to tell how much of that is Casey, or the Eastern Conference, players developing on their own, or due to him? Vinny may have just let players do their thing or get out of the way, but either way he has more results to show. He's also had better talent.

Since I doubt many of us don't watch too many games where Casey is coaching this would be a very uneducated guess. This is where things get tricky for us fans in my opinion. Results can be misleading. Basing off recent results you would think that Vinny is a better coach then Adelman, but there is very little you could tell me to ever make me believe that. I saw a lot of his SAC and Houston years, and have no doubt he is a much better coach than Vinny.

clipper*joe

04/09/2014 - 12:52 PM PST

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namzug wrote:

Now that is an argument to be had, on who is better. Vinny or Casey? I think Casey has had much less talent, but he hasn't shown anything with the chances he's had outside of maybe this year. Which it's hard to tell how much of that is Casey, or the Eastern Conference, players developing on their own, or due to him? Vinny may have just let players do their thing or get out of the way, but either way he has more results to show. He's also had better talent.

An argument can always be made but you can't argue the facts. Talent or no talent, VDN has accomplished more. Isn't that how coaches are judged? Pops, Doc, and Phil have had some of the best accumulated talent in their winning years so would you use the same measuring stick on those guys? think about it real hard. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

Since I doubt many of us don't watch too many games where Casey is coaching this would be a very uneducated guess. This is where things get tricky for us fans in my opinion. Results can be misleading. Basing off recent results you would think that Vinny is a better coach then Adelman, but there is very little you could tell me to ever make me believe that. I saw a lot of his SAC and Houston years, and have no doubt he is a much better coach than Vinny.

It isn't an uneducated guess. I'm going off of facts and all indicators show that VDN is a better coach. based on recent results, VDN is better than Adelman if you compare RECENT records. Now is VDN the better overall coach? HELL NO! Adelman is a very decorated coach that is known to make the most out of what he's dealt...he just seems like his time has past.

namzug

04/09/2014 - 01:55 PM PST

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I was agreeing with you guys that stats say that Vinny is better, but if you take things out of context then what are we arguing. If you give me a prime MJ, Magic, Pippen, Malone, and Olajuwon I could beat Phil Jackson if he has you, Cleepers, and three guys off the street. Would that make me a better coach than Phil Jackson? I don't think that's how that works. Now if we are talking similarly talented teams, I wouldn't have a chance.

Context has to count for something, shouldn't improvements in a team's play count for something. What about more with less? Do we have to go strictly off wins and losses? I'm saying if we don't watch the team and are only going off the wins and losses without considering the variables included then yes it is an uneducated guess. If you watch a ton of Toronto games and have monitored Casey's teams for awhile, be my guest and educate us on this. If you haven't your guess is as good as mine, and neither really has any substance. You could argue that he had more wins and someone else could argue that he had less talent. It would be a pointless argument. Now if a Toronto fan (or someone who has watched them enough to see improvement or lack thereof), came in here and said Casey hasn't done anything and looks lost or he is great and just needs a few more great players I would be inclined to hear them out.

clipper*joe

04/09/2014 - 02:23 PM PST

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namzug wrote:

I was agreeing with you guys that stats say that Vinny is better, but if you take things out of context then what are we arguing. If you give me a prime MJ, Magic, Pippen, Malone, and Olajuwon I could beat Phil Jackson if he has you, Cleepers, and three guys off the street. Would that make me a better coach than Phil Jackson? I don't think that's how that works. Now if we are talking similarly talented teams, I wouldn't have a chance.

You weren't agreeing with us, you were conceding the fact in the first sentence and then questioning what you just conceded in the rest of your response. In other words, 99% of your post was about why you don't agree.

Quote:

Context has to count for something, shouldn't improvements in a team's play count for something. What about more with less? Do we have to go strictly off wins and losses? I'm saying if we don't watch the team and are only going off the wins and losses without considering the variables included then yes it is an uneducated guess. If you watch a ton of Toronto games and have monitored Casey's teams for awhile, be my guest and educate us on this. If you haven't your guess is as good as mine, and neither really has any substance. You could argue that he had more wins and someone else could argue that he had less talent. It would be a pointless argument. Now if a Toronto fan (or someone who has watched them enough to see improvement or lack thereof), came in here and said Casey hasn't done anything and looks lost or he is great and just needs a few more great players I would be inclined to hear them out.

Ok, lets play that game. How are you going to measure "improvements"? What other than winning % are we going to measure both coaches? You tell me? You're proposing other ways to measure who's better yet in your very next sentence you admit you don't know much about the Raptors. My original statement was that VDN is much better than Casey when it comes to accomplishments and winning. Is that a lie or a fact? If you want to argue that point, you better come back with a solid, well thought out argument...Not some, "there should be other ways to measure who's better". My argument was supplemented with facts. So what are you arguing about if you don't have one? I mean a argument that you can substantiate.

namzug

04/09/2014 - 02:51 PM PST

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Ok, then let me be clear when it comes to accomplishments I agree with you. Vinny has accomplished more.

When it comes to determining who is a better coach, I believe there are more variables than just your win/loss columns. Is there a lot of Isolation play on offense, is there some type of consistency on how they cover certain types of plays such as PnR. Putting your players in position to play to their strengths. Keeping them motivated. Something like what you find in the link below:

Is it subjective? Yes, there are some stats that can come into play but variables such as talent come into play in a lot of those too. I think once you watch the games you can tell to an extent if there is things going on that can be blamed on the players or the system or lack thereof.

comeONcraig

04/10/2014 - 06:30 PM PST

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Random thought, but imagine having VDN and Grant Hill guest host an episode of NBA Gametime? That'd be REAL awkward.

In a little over a week, the Los Angeles Clippers will begin the 2013-14 NBA playoffs as one of the most balanced, dangerous teams in the race.

Most basketball experts will point to Chris Paul as L.A.'s unquestioned leader and MVP. But if you ask Jamal Crawford, who recently spoke with Dime's Spencer Lund, we should be handing that trophy to someone else entirely:

But Doc [Rivers] has truly been the MVP of our team. I think getting everybody to buy in from day 1. It's coming from a guy - and that's no disrespect to anybody else, because I was a big Vinny Del Negro guy - but it's more Doc. ... If you want to be a championship-level you kind of have to have a championship-level coach. Someone that's actually won it, or been there. You know he's done both, so we've all bought in, and he's been the true MVP of this season.

We've seen plenty of examples over the years of NBA players throwing former coaches-or former teammates, for that matter-under the bus.

This isn't exactly that. Think of it more like throwing someone under one of those giant plastic gerbil balls people use to roll down hills. Would getting run over by one of those feel uncomfortable? Sure. Would the city road crew have to come down and scrape you off the sidewalk? Nah.

In three seasons as the Clippers head coach, Del Negro amassed a win-loss record of 128-102. Considering L.A.'s longstanding status as an NBA laughingstock, that's pretty darn good.

But with a team built around the superstar stylings of Paul and Blake Griffin-to say nothing of its increasingly potent supporting cast-good simply wasn't good enough.

Back in February, Bleacher Report's Oren Friedman underscored just how valuable Doc's playoff experience-the science of X's and O's, the psychology of Jims and Joes-will be to a franchise looking to steal its first championship:

Lob City needs a confident commander, fluid with his X's and O's and upfront in his decision-making process. Paul needs a coach he can lean on and Jordan needs the trust of the man holding the clipboard. With Rivers at the helm, the Clips should not expect to go easily in the postseason. Clipper Nation should be confident that Rivers' ability to mange his players and develop key schemes in game-to-game adjustments should be pivotal, once the postseason begins.

It's an aura that Del Negro, for all his player-friendly strengths, simply didn't have.

Still, don't be surprised if another team-one as similarly up-and-coming as the Clips once were-takes a flier on Del Negro this offseason.

After experiencing Rivers' first season performance, many people believe that Doc is up and beyond than Vinny Del Negro. However, I feel that this season also showed that Vinny was not bad of a coach that everyone think. It's unfortunate that he had been scapegoat because he does not have a championship accolade like Doc. If Doc did not have the ring, many fans would be more critical of Doc.

Remember, Doc had been coaching many years more than Vinny and Vinny is still a relatively young coach, so there are always room to improve.

So objectively (if you can), what you think the performance and the contrast between both Doc and Vinny 's coaching scheme?

ClipperSean

05/20/2014 - 05:28 PM PST

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Vinny wasn't that bad but Doc is much better. I don't think you can judge Doc just on this season alone but rather his coaching career. He he is a proven leader. It seems to me that the players respect Doc much more than they did Vinny. Out of bounds and time out plays have been a lot more efficient this year. Most of all, I am pretty damn confident that Doc handled the Sterling and all the adversity we faced during playoffs MUCH better than Vinny would have.

LobAngelesBlakers

05/20/2014 - 08:21 PM PST

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lol I was a big Vinny supporter and caught a lot of flack for it. I was not a fan of the CP trade and caught flack for it. I am not saying I was right or anything, but I was right. None of these moves have made use ACTUALLY more competitive.

JahvonTheClip

05/20/2014 - 08:38 PM PST

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Imagine how this team would of played with vinny as a coach during this donald stuff. I cringe just thinking about it

ClipperKyle32

05/20/2014 - 08:43 PM PST

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ClipsGFroce,
I could put together a team of random basketball players and i could coach. After the season I could say. Hey! We won as many playoff games as the Lakers. Is that true! Yes! Does....

Notice how nobody is even remotely interested in hiring VDN after failing in Chicago and LA - and the NBA is notorious for recycling bad coaches!

Anyone pointing out Vinny's win total is being strictly results-oriented and ignoring the process. The fact is, he had no offensive system, his defensive system was a gimmick that changed based on opponent and wasn't going to work in the playoffs, he made zero adjustments, he had no idea how to draw up a play, and his substitutions and timeout usage were consistently baffling. On top of that, he feuded with his front office and alienated his players in both Chicago and LA. Vinny was never a good coach and the revisionist history is getting tiresome.

cleepers

05/20/2014 - 09:47 PM PST

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2012, 2013: "This team should be in the WCF... Vinny del Negro is holding us back... Chris Paul is the REAL leader."

2014: "This team should be in the WCF... Chris Paul is holding us back... He chokes in the playoffs."

Now THAT'S revisionist history!

clipper*joe

05/20/2014 - 09:52 PM PST

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Context is everything...correct. The 50 wins can also mean the teams in the West won more games against teams in the East than last season. The East was really bad this season so maybe the higher win totals were up in the West. I haven't looked it up nor do I want to but I know the West ran the table on the East this season.

JQuick32

05/20/2014 - 09:55 PM PST

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You're assuming that I ever said the first thing. If anything, it would be Blake being held back if VDN were retained.

clipper*joe

05/20/2014 - 09:56 PM PST

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Yet for some reason, Doc barely edged VDN with more talent, system, six man of the year, new and improved DJ, and third runner up in MVP voting. lol

JQuick32

05/20/2014 - 10:02 PM PST

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To be fair, once you get up into the mid-to-high 50 win range, there's not much room for improvement there in a stacked Western Conference. I'd argue that Vinny had more talent, as last year's bench was far superior to this year's bench, and that's the sole reason why he won so many regular season games despite his utter failure at X's and O's, motivation, preparation, and making adjustments.

CP3Best

05/20/2014 - 10:07 PM PST

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MAN! We just can't catch a break...

clipper*joe

05/20/2014 - 10:17 PM PST

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Please. This year's bench was better than last season. You had 4-5 starters from last season coming off the bench. Maybe Doc didn't use the talent he had wisely. Plus, Doc had great assistant coaches that would make VDN's look like amateurs. Put hey, if Doc is so much more superior, why couldn't he coach a "weaker" (LOL) bench into playing better? Isn't that where you separate a mediocre coach from a great coach?

You really have no argument. You're grasping at straws now.

cleepers

05/20/2014 - 10:19 PM PST

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JQuick32 wrote:

You're assuming that I ever said the first thing.

Nah, it couldn't have been you, because you only joined recently... it was a guy who called himself 82-0. He hated Vinny passionately, was constantly negative about the team and posted from an IP address in the very same neighborhood in Boston that you post from. Here's one of his posts from a year ago. Sounds a lot like somebody we know...

82-0 wrote:

The CP3 hate is getting ridiculous. CP3 is the best point guard in the league. He just hasn't looked like it this year because our dumbfuck of a coach can't run an offense. Give CP3 a real offense and he will dominate, simple as that. Even then, he almost brought us back into the game and got benched for no reason.

Vinny's "Chris Paul Offense" has done nothing but minimize the strengths of our franchise players. Blake gets minimized as well by the ball being taken out of his hands for long stretches of the game against good teams.

I truly cannot comprehend how so-called Clipper fans can sit there and watch Vinny get outcoached over and over again while drastically misusing our franchise players and still claim this is good coaching and call people "trolls" for criticizing it.

he was banned for being a total prick, but you guys should probably grab a beer together sometime. I bet you'd get along really well

jarca

05/20/2014 - 10:31 PM PST

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I said in the beginning of the season we're second round max. Doc maximizes the talent. Barnes and Redick are bench palyers who had to perform starter minutes. VDN has a borderline all star in Bledsoe and he didn't know how to maximize him. Maybe part of the reason Ebled trade value weren't very high since VDN had no idea how to play him in the playoff

ClipperSean

05/20/2014 - 11:51 PM PST

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Anyone who thinks VDN right now is on the same level as Doc is either delusional or just likes debating for the sake of debating (im guessing the latter). There is a reason why he is unemployed.

Agent0

05/20/2014 - 11:57 PM PST

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Doc was the GM though, a few of us saw the potential of Paul and Bledsoe together in a backcourt. Doc is the one that traded him away. He had all the chance to keep him. He had a few options:

1) Start Bledsoe at SG next to Paul, he chose Redick

2) Move Jamal and insert Bledsoe into the 6th man SG/PG role and get another wing who plays backup SF, he chose Jamal

...so maybe Doc also didn't realize what he had in Bledsoe, and if he watched so much film about last year, he should have. He wanted to get the shooting, but while he got the shooting (though Dudley failed), he didn't get enough of a balance in wing defense. Paul is our best wing defender. Even Durant gets to hide on Mario Chalmers in a series vs Miami, even Westbrook gets to guard someone else while Jackson or Sefolosha guards CP in crunch time, even Parker gets to get the worst perimeter player while Green and Leonard guard the better ones. Paul on the other hand guards Curry, Westbrook and even Durant.

I think Doc is a better coach. I think he's more adept at making adjustments, unlike Vinny, I didn't have the thought of why don't we make this player related adjustments this time. He's much better at out of bounds plays, but he's one of the best at that as acknowledged by everyone. He has the players buying in, which Vinny struggled with, his defensive system was better and more consistent, but our defensive personnel was worse this year (but hey, who needs defensive players off the bench, right? Just need players that can score!). Doc is a better coach, but I'm still far from sold on Doc the GM.

CP3Best

05/21/2014 - 12:01 AM PST

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This year's bench was "better"? We had no backup big, Barnes who was supposed to be the bench spark plug defensively was moved to the starting lineup, Danny was trash, Hedo got injured and he's really a 3 as Blake mentioned, and Baby is severely undersized without shot blocking ability, and HE was the main man off the bench. I don't even know how u can complain when JJ was injured all season, Paul missed 18 games and we ended up with the 3rd best record in the entire conference that is probably the best it ever was, Bledsoe ain't here Butler ain't here... What do you want Doc to do? DO you want him to go and hold the ball and not turn it over like CP did? You want him to come on the court and NOT foul Russ on a bad chuck 3??!! DO you want HIM to come and make the Last shot of the game and not turn it over? DO YOU? DIDN'T think so, now shut the F**K up!

Clippersfan86

05/21/2014 - 12:09 AM PST

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Actually this may get interesting for me as a VDN hater. I'm going to just share a few points.

VDN's rotations drove me INSANE. Doc's, while not as bad, are pretty damn mediocre himself. Especially in the playoffs and later in the season I was left scratching my head constantly. Like why the hell did the guy let starters rest so long, while other teams are playing theirs 40+ minutes? It cost us many games IMO.

Doc is SIGNIFICANTLY better as a motivator and overall game manager. His substitutions suck, but his strategies are good.

I'm learning the common denominator for this team.. is the players. They are still a bunch of entitled primadonna's. They wait until they get punched in the mouth to compete CONSTANTLY. They take any sort of success for granted. They shrink under pressure time and time again, although this year they were a little tougher.

jarca

05/21/2014 - 12:18 AM PST

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Well that's why I've been screaming for 2 years for us to get a GM but cheap racist Sterling messed it up.

ClipsGForce

05/21/2014 - 12:54 AM PST

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The Bledsoe trade have to be made because Bledsoe is going to bolt out anyways. You may as well get someone out of it which is Redick. I'm not blaming on Doc whatsoever. I'm waiting on a full offseason with Doc to see what he can do.

I rather have someone who is young and hungry aka Steven Adams from OKC. Where do teams find gems like him?

jarca

05/21/2014 - 09:09 AM PST

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It has to be made but it was made when his value was an all time low because he was mostly benched in the playoff.

clipper*joe

05/21/2014 - 10:14 AM PST

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No, it's not debating for the sake of debating or people being delusional but one has to ask the question since the end result was basically the same, no? I mean, all lot of people were saying last season that all we needed was a good coach...I am assuming you were one of them, no? Well, what's the excuse this time? We had arguably the best roster ever , one of the best coaches, and the most payroll we've ever had. Ok champ, for the sake of argument, give me your take so some of delusional fans don't have to debate for the sake of debating.

jarca

05/21/2014 - 10:31 AM PST

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We got bounced in the first round last year and got swept by the spurs. We had a borderline all star coming off the bench last year, Jamal, Barnes, and odom. If we go by name recognition, we had the best roster this year but last year was clearly better. I don't remember us getting bounce in the first round, nor getting swept by an average of double digit.

2012-2013- I said prior to the season when the roster were compiled we were second round best. But we got bounced in the first round and missed the golden opportunity at the easiest path to WCF

2013-2014- I said before the season that we were second round best and without Paul choking, I would have been eating crow. I'm disappointed that we are no longer playing but I didn't have much of an expectation on this paper thin roster without a serious wing defender.

clipper*joe

05/21/2014 - 10:31 AM PST

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Yes, the bench was more stacked than last season. Turiaf, Odom, and Bledsoe are the only guys that left. we got Hedu, Garnger, Big baby, Collison, and Dudley in return. You mean to tell me that last year's bench was better? That's insane! Lets not look at the results, but the talent involved. The result might have been due to not playing them enough to get into rhythm, Granger was often pulled on the first mistake. Dudley did suck but that was Doc's choice to be our starter. Guess what? Doc wanted a undersized big in big baby. So pleas stop your nonsense. plus, Doc used the starters more than the bench so that also falls on Doc.

You want to talk like that to me because I am critical of your god? Then expect the same in return.

cleepers

05/21/2014 - 11:13 AM PST

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Even though this was his best year, Bledsoe wasn't even close to being an all-star.

Just off the top of my head here are 5 Guys who would have been taken ahead of him in the West:

Goran Dragic,

Anthony Davis,

DeMarcus Cousins,

Mike Conley,

Tim Duncan.

Solid arguments could also be made for Monta Ellis, David Lee, Klay Thompson, DeAndre Jordan, Serge Ibaka and even Jamal Crawford and Nick Young as bench players.

ClipperSean

05/21/2014 - 11:30 AM PST

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Yes I absolutely wanted Vinny out because I didn't feel like he had the full respect of our players which is very important. Doc commands the respect from our players and the whole NBA organization. That alone is enough to say having him as our leader is better then Vinny because its not like Vinny was a great with the X's and O's.

You shouldn't compare or judge coaches based on 1 year. But even if you do, Doc still had a better year this year than Vinny every did with the Clippers. We had our best regular season ever. We led the league in defending the 3 point line (i think) and DJ became a force. We made it to 6 games in the 2nd round of the playoffs all while overcoming all the Sterling drama. Don't underestimate the influence that Doc Rivers must have had on our players during that time to keep them somewhat focused. Although its impossible to know for sure, I am pretty confident that we would have completely fell apart had we been under the leadership of Vinny or many other coaches.

Its hard to even believe we are even having this conversation. But there are always a few devils advocates. I'm sure there are 1 or 2 people saying Vinny was better than Thibideau too.

jarca

05/21/2014 - 11:36 AM PST

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If our CEO Parson hire a real GM who has the time to scout young players instead of picking up past their prime off the waiver then we'll be set.

ClipsGForce

05/21/2014 - 12:06 PM PST

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So you can't really fault on Doc for that. It was Vinny who bench Bledsoe and should have trade him a year prior. So you can't blame Doc's GM role because as the season goes on, Bledsoe value would only go down despite how he's play. Everyone expect Bledsoe to bolt for bigger money.

ClipsGForce

05/21/2014 - 12:09 PM PST

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Posts: 1994

votes: 14

I can't say that the bench of last season was better than this season. It's comparing apples to oranges. That team is built completely different than this year team. For example, last year bench have more playing time, but even that, that doesn't help us past first round. Our bench this year was more situation roles which guys like Granger, Big Baby, and Collison was to fill gaps until the starting coming in. I can't say much about the Vinny team through.

CP3Best

05/21/2014 - 12:34 PM PST

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Are you SERIOUS right now? Last year's bench: Bledsoe, JCross, Barnes, Turiaf, Odom. Just the simple fact that we had Barnes there makes it at least twice better. Bledsoe was worth the whole bench this season with the exception of Crawford, he was blocking D-Wade. This season: Cllison, JCross, Granger, Baby, and Hollins who never played. Barnes is miles better than Granger, COllison and Bledsoe I'll call it a tie just for kicks, but Baby was the ONLY big man off the bench, without the shotblocking of Turiaf, his defensive presence, and Odom's playmaking, and Hedo was just a glorified chucker who played no defense. ANd just the simple fact that we had an extra sf last year that could play makes last year's team BETTER.

CP3Best

05/21/2014 - 12:36 PM PST

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votes: 13

And with this team we were one monumental brain sh*t away from going UP 3-2 in the semis, last year we lost in the 1st round, IMPROVEMENT! I think yes...

Steady818

05/21/2014 - 12:51 PM PST

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So wait what you are saying is VDN had a better bench with less talent there. Nice i guess we see who got more out of their respectable benches than.

clipper*joe

05/21/2014 - 01:14 PM PST

CTB MVP Champion

Posts: 17629

Location: los angeles

votes: 136

While you think there are a few devil's advocates, I think they're just making others think for once. A lot of people thought the simple solution was just to replace VDN with ANY other coach. A lot of people thought even first time coaches would be an upgrade. People where complaining about how we were just sitting on our hands while other teams were swooping in on all the "clear' upgrade coaches that were picked up. Some of which had never coached a game as a head coach. I was one of them that said we should wait more and glad we did. We got a great coach and one that I felt was an upgrade. With that said, my point in this discussion is to point out that even with a clear upgrade, the outcome wasn't that significant...Even you would admit that. Had the FO listened to most of YOU guys, we would have got the first coach that wanted the job. I was always against that. You think if we took a chance on a first time coach just cause he held a clipboard for a great coach, we would have had the same results? I think not.

So basically, this is to all the haters that thought any coach would have netted us the same, or better success under the VDN regime. Bottom line, not even a great coach as Doc is a sure fire way to get us over the hump. We had the talent and we had the core together enough to make it happen...It didn't. And lets just say that some of Doc's choices helped make that happen.

VDN wanted to trade Ariza for Butler and how many of the same people crying over that non-trade are the same one that wanted VDN gone? Thank you!

clipper*joe

05/21/2014 - 01:19 PM PST

CTB MVP Champion

Posts: 17629

Location: los angeles

votes: 136

So you're saying that VDN got better production out of his bench than DOC? Gotcha! You're saying that Doc should have kept Bledsoe and kept Barnes on the bench instead of starting him? You saying Doc should have went after bigs instead of trying to get players he played with? Seems to me that you're confused. You're making it seem like Doc is incompetent.

cleepers

05/21/2014 - 02:17 PM PST

CTB MVP X3

Posts: 10461

votes: 142

Bottom line is that all those who said that Vinny was the one thing stopping us from being conference finalists were wrong. We replaced him with one of only a handful of guys that all of us agreed was a clear upgrade and we still didn't make it, despite a higher seed and going into the postseason fully healthy.

I said it last year and the year before, and I'll say it again... the recipe for success is much more complex than just switching out a single person.