I will be working on this, and posting images throughout the day. But here is a teaser.

We got the master weighter on board, we decided to see what the RZ2 could do if we took all that we learned so far, and created the best wake we could for these pros. I will admit we favored the surf riders with steep lip and lots of pop, but we adjusted when the skimmers rode. The wave was kicking them off the top, we coined the phrase, "he caught a yard" when there was a full 3 feet under the board, it was amazing. I will post those later today.

DISCLAIMER: 95% of the time or more we ride our Tige under the posted weight limit with about 1000 lbs in the corner + people. We decided on this occasion that we were going to go big or go home, and went out on a Wed. and got permission to use a "no ski" area, so in a sense, pros with closed course. We also didn't weight the boat past the point where we felt it was unsafe for the conditions.

Here is the teaser pic. I have video from a chase boat from the side also coming.

NOTE: This is about 1/2 or less of the air these guys were getting, but its a good picture that shows the length and size of the wake and the conditions. Stay tuned. Also, all ballast was hidden, and same on both sides.

I haven't seen more air before. James commented the wake had a really nice transition and TONS of pop, it was kicking him off the lip. Dennis, one of his coaches, felt it was about the highest, or higher than he ever got before. Chase was equally impressive.

Sean also threw down an amazing run, but will be harder to see in pics, but the video is coming. May take a while to edit all the video, we went non stop, all day, and video'd everything.

OK, I am going to post once for each rider session. The riders were James, Chase, Sean, Trinity, Shayla, Dennis, James, Chase and then RJ. We only got one goofy rider and had to head out. We are finishing goofy on Friday. (tomorrow).

RJ was having a bunch of fun. They would fall, and he would say, can you do that with a grab? How about stalefish? They were eager to oblige, it was a fun day. Maybe one of the best, it was just about surfing, no competing, just make a big wake. The phrases of the day, were "catching a yard", and "go big, or go home".

1. Chase broke his board the day before. So he repaired in the AM and then rode other boards while drying. Then got on his own, to find it was still needing repair. So he rode 3 other boards and showed great skill on each. He wasn't unhappy with his shredstixx and testing other boards. Just want to make that clear, so Chase doesn't get any "feedback" about riding other boards.

2. I thought I would define a "yard". Its a buttload of air. Sorry to get so technical, but hey, sometimes you have 2. Here are 2 pics, that demonstrate what we referred to as a "yard".

We had an EMT on standby with oxygen. Chase was a bit light headed after this one, due to lack of oxygen at altitude.

So, one more thing before Chase. Here is a raw clip of unedited video showing wake from side of boat. You can see attitude of boat, how Bre was taking pictures, people weight, full disclosure. Doesn't give justice to height of wake, but when chase goes to bottom of transition, you can see wake is about waist high.

Chase goes back about 3/4 of the wake, another 3-5 feet where you could ride and recover fairly easily.

"DISCLAIMER: 95% of the time or more we ride our Tige under the posted weight limit with about 1000 lbs in the corner + people. We decided on this occasion that we were going to go big or go home, and went out on a Wed. and got permission to use a "no ski" area, so in a sense, pros with closed course. We also didn't weight the boat past the point where we felt it was unsafe for the conditions."

So what set up did you run (people weight and ballast)? Could this set up have been run in an environment that was not closed (how far out of the water is the back corner)? Truly curious. Nice looking wave and hard to tell from side pick if the back corner is all the way in water or still has 4 or 5 inches.

Sure, you could, but I am just saying that I don't recommend it, and I also made an agreement with tige, that when we do occasionally go very big, I would make the disclaimer, and also point out that the stock pro ballast makes a great recreational wake. The point of this, is that it shows the RZ2 is a great platform for a wakesurf wake, on both sides, and requires less weight than other boats.

I will post setup shortly, in a meeting. Its at a boring part at the moment. ;-)

OK, so that was the first 2 sessions, James and Chase, both amazing riders. Such a blast to watch them both. At first, we were like, wow thats high, then ooh, chase went higher, then ooh, james was higher, at the end of the day, it was all just amazing.

So then we moved on to skim rider sean cummings, who had a great session also. Before I get to Sean, I want to talk about the setup we used for surf, because we adjusted fro Sean.

Dennis bought 700 lbs of lead and a large 750 lb sac. We filled the in hull 250lb tank on the surf side, and then added 400lbs of lead on top of that, then about 500-600lbs filled of the large sac on top of that. At most 1200lbs of weight in rear corner on surf side. Then we filled the ballast on surf side in front and added 300lbs of lead up front on surf side, 700 lbs of ballast up front on surf side. In the boat, RJ was driving at 140lbs, dennis and I sat in ballast position as seen in video, 660lbs or so, and bre on back deck with the camera, about 150.

Surf side rear: ~1200lbs
Surf side front: 700lbs
People weight on surf side ballast positioned: 660lbs
Other people: 290lbs

Total: 2850 lbs, only 400lbs overweight I believe.

Taps was all the way down to 1 for this setup. The RZ2 is nicely weight sensitive and with that Convex V hull it just sinks down the rear with weight. My 24Ve doesn't sink down like this does, that 2 feet makes a big difference. So even with all that weight in front, taps to 1, or you had a short wall of a wake. With the weight, and taps at 1, we had a large wake, good transition, good lip to launch from, and a long pocket.

To understand what I mean by the hull, the bottom of the RZ2 and all Tige's with the "Convex V" hull have a continuous rocker at the bottom of the boat. This means it is a non planing hull. Other boats have a hook at the back of the hull, so it will plane. With a bit of weight in it, the tige will NOT plane without the use of the taps plate, it can provide that hook. What that means is that with taps UP the boat sinks down more than most boats and so less weight is necessary, and our testing seems to confirm that. Here is a picture of the bottom of my boat.

We mirrored the same thing on goofy, nothing different. The wake was equally good, but we have to finish goofy sessions tomorrow. Here is one pic of RJ.

When we are done with this, we will go back to NO lead, only water, and find the perfect setup that doesn't put us overweight, and still fully automated. We are establishing 3 setups, stock with pro ballast, larger rear sac and still automated, and balls to the wall.

Dennis got this setup right the first time, he only filled and placed lead ONE time.

Well, my goal here is to document what it can do, as objectively as possible, with full disclosure. Let the chips fall where they may. You can all use this info, to help you make your opinions or decisions, whether you choose a Tige or not. And if you do choose a Tige, if the wake is your biggest concern, go RZ2, I think I can safely say that. I assume the 22Ve is the same.

@jkw, I believe you. That picture with Chase, just above is probably the best pic I got of the full wake. But I will check, we took about 900 pictures. We are going out again on friday, so I will see if we can take one. The thing about pictures without riders, is you lose scale. In the picture above, you get scale.

What is that you are looking for? How clean the wake is with him off? I may have a picture that gives you what you want if you tell me, and I will look.

@jkw Here are a couple of pictures of the wake without the rider really messing it up. The bottom turn shows how much push the wake had to do a turn that far out in the flats. All of the pictures are taken from the sundeck.

Yes, Chase is more quiet, but James commented on how much push it had, even far back. It was clean, except for some bubbles where the water was coming off of our vent. There was an occasion where the rubrail made a small line, also minor. The face was clean, and it had lots of push. Dennis also rode it, backside.

We did get a rooster tail start to show up when we were adjusting wait for Sean, to knock it down a bit, better for skim. We cleaned that up with some adjustment, but it would come up if we hit a bit of chop or if we turned a bit. So I think if we spent some more time just for skim/Sean, we would resolve that.

I made an invite to Sean and his crew, to come out, and I would let him wait the boat however he wanted, just for him.

The key is, we did this quickly, without a ton of weight, its a lot, but not massive, and no switchblade or anything like that. Its all stock, plus some added weight, nothing else.

This thread is ridiculous!!
Congrats on the new boat Robert & RJ & co. I'm sure you're loving it already
You can tell from the very first picture with Chase that the wave is long and steep, just look at the mile long white wash on the opposite side.

ok, so lets get to my boy Sean. I have to admit, I lean towards surf style, so that was our first thought with the wake, and so we had to adjust for Sean. I felt bad, so extended him invite so he could start with it JUST how HE wants.

Anyway, we didn't move any wait. Dennis just got up and moved more forward, and to the center of the boat. If he moved all the way to bow, we got a rooster, so he had to sit on the observer seat, towards the driver. Am I remembering that right dennis? Correct me if I am wrong. I stayed in the fat boy seat.

I will have to check video later, but got to see my first 1260 (maybe 1080, I don't remember) from the boat. Sean nailed it.

I think this was Sean landing a shuv, but I loved the pick, especially with the WS logo on his shirt OVER his PFD.

Hey, skimmers can grab too? ;-)

Sean spinning. One of the things I love about Sean's spins, is that he is mostly standing. Some skimmers look like they are almost sitting on the board. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I just think it looks cooler when more upright.

Sean pulled off at least 3 rotations and landed it, (1080) 2x. It may have been 1260, don't remember, Sean can clarify.

Sean fell forward once, and decided to dive in and body surf.

It caught me by surprise because he didn't just die and sink. He actually rode it out a bit, the wave had a lot of push. It was pretty funny. Sean has great dismounts.

Can't leave out the gun show.

Good wake pic.

OK, now, this is where it gets ugly. Sean likes to spray the boat. Bre doesn't like getting her camera wet. Bre has something like 15 tattoos on her hind quarters of the men she has laid to waste for doing this. I believe she is getting #16.

@jkw, I have no problem with a switchblade or a wedge. The point is just that its a great platform. I am sure the Avy is also. I don't think I could use a wedge or a switchblade, on our lake, we get a lot of debris for 2 full months. Big logs and stuff. I would knock that think clean off is my guess. Also, we typically use 4GPH when surfing, that is tough to do with a wedge or switchblade. Again, those things are great, and I am sure the Avy is a great platform. Get someone to bring an Avy down to Lake Oroville, and we will film it.

One more thing, I can definitely agree that Centurion has set a benchmark, and should be credited for doing so. Tige was late to the party, but also makes some great wakesurf boats.

Last edited by ragboy; 08-05-2010 at 8:35 PM.
Reason: added last comment.

@Ragboy: I agree it looks like a great platform and I am glad Tige is focusing on wakesurfing. I was just pointing out that "The key is, we did this quickly, without a ton of weight, its a lot, but not massive, and no switchblade or anything like that. Its all stock, plus some added weight, nothing else. " statement makes you look like you are selling RZ2 and it makes it hard for you to look like you are giving unbiased info. There really is not anything true in that statement other than you may have set it up quickly.

It could actually be argued that using a Switchblade/PowerWedge is safer then putting 700lbs of lead under 600lbs of water and stuffing it all under a seat. You can turn a SB/Wedge off in seconds. How hard do you think it would be to get all of that lead out of your boat if you had to in a hurry?

I agree on that argument, and for the record, we won't be using lead after friday. I did the same thing with the Ve. We used lead or pop bags to help us dial it in quickly, then built custom sacs and automated it. After tomorrow, it will be very rare to have lead in my boat. As it has been before. I don't like it for safety reasons. So you are correct, and I agree. Next week, we plan on getting it right, with just water, based on what we have learned with the lead.

Personally, I am hoping for something like the lowrider system in the future. Nothing hanging down, no huge piece of scary metal back there, and the same benefit. And maybe even less water, and def no lead.

We will be following up once we get it nailed with just water. I am not a tige salesman, but when I love something, I share. And I always have, there are tons of posts from me in the past that show that. Its just my nature. Tige benefitted before, and they will probably benefit now.

I am working very hard to make sure this isn't just propaganda. You have the pictures, the video, the setups, and the invite. I will even post the camera and lens we were using as soon as I have it. Buy a tige, don't buy a tige, either way, it was an EPIC day, EPIC wake, EPIC riders, and I must document it. ;-)

"Uh oh, that RZ2 wave is throwing the smack down on the Centurion gods...." This quote cracked me up and only proves who's wave everybody else is aiming at

You bet! I also believe that statement. It's ok to be dethroned! The thing is, Tige is stepping up their game right now and offering what the riders want and that is a surf system and a clean wave on both sides straight from the factory without having to order your boat with the prop spinning a different way. Sure ragboy isn't running the stock setup in these pics but Tige has gone out and listened to the rider and now offers a surf system. I'm with ragboy, Tige came in late to the game but we are the ones who are going to benefit because boat companies get stuck in their ways sometimes and without a little bit of competition, no one will progress.

Some supplemental pics, I took this one when we "unboxed" our RZ2 in a target parking lot at 10pm in Seattle. It shows the new 2010 Swim deck is filled in on the bottom, almost no lip, so keeps the wake, especially the transition, clean. Sanger and Centurion already have this, but those with previous tiges will find this interesting.

This images shows the water line and video camera position on the RZ2. Just a BIT past the rubrail.

And just to show no tricks, this was taken with my iphone at face level, not laying down, from the ballast boy seat.

Lastly, remember that the tige threw a great wake, with JUST stock ballast, no need to go nuts to get a good wake. I don't want people to think you have to overload your boat to surf well. Here is a video that shows the RZ2 stock.

@Ragboy: when you start messing with the weight, will you try two things and let me know what you think
1. Add +/-300lbs of counter weight in the opposite locker
2. Take some of the weight out of the back locker on surf side and add it to the swim deck (try tying 160lb Fly High brick)

Doing these seem to add a lot of push to an Avy, especially weight on swim deck. I dont know why it does.

@Timmy: I am glad other brands are paying more attention to surfing. It will provide us all with more options in the future. But Tige's are not "out of the box" surf ready. IMO - there aren't any boats that are (including the Enzo with its new 2,000lbs ballast system, which I believe is 500lbs in each back locker under the floor, 2x250lb mid tanks and 2x250 bow tanks).

In any event, great pics and looks like everybody head fun. I bet RJ learned a ton riding with those guys.

@dennis, all stock, I believe it has the acme 537. There was NO cavitation with this setup at surf speeds, but there was when getting up to 15mph. This was a once a year setup, I don't think we will see any cavitation at our full time setup, between stock and this. But I will update if there is.

@jkw, yeah, we may give that a try. Dennis seems to be making the drive up to oroville more often since I bought this sucker home. ;-) Also, I do think the stock pro surf RZ2 is out of the box surf ready, at least for good recreational surfing. Ready for guys like James and Chase and Sean? No, but easy to get there.

The average wakesurfer with some people weight and stock will be very happy.

RJ loves riding with those guys. I think RJ is going to be taller like Chase, and he loves James style, so he loves to learn from them. RJ was pissing dennis off by riding with the rope and slashing, bugs dennis (tongue in cheek) but that's what Chase does. And look at that bottom turn from RJ, look familiar, that came from James. RJ studies their videos.

I have to say, they are both good role models. Chase was at our dinner table last night, with all the other guys, James came up later. But we have spent that kind of time with James also. They are respectful kids, and I think they honor the sport. Sean is an ambassador for the sport, and I don't think wakesurfing would be the same without him.

@ragboy - that swim platform bottom doesn't look any different than the original RZ2 platform, mine only has a very small lip. I'll have to take a picture so you can see but it's not the lip on the OG one it's the gigantic size!

OK, I am busy finishing the NW Open videos and getting them up, but still have more photos, and now the goofy stuff to post. But will have to get to it later, hopefully tonight. For now, I need to update the setup from what you see above.

Surf side rear: ~1200lbs
Surf side front: 700lbs
People weight on surf side ballast positioned: 660lbs
Other people: 290lbs

Total: 2850 lbs, only 400lbs overweight I believe.

That is what I put, but dennis weighed his lead, and its 150lbs lighter than he thought, so we were more like:

How can a boat be "overweight" when the Coast Guard does not have weight limits for boats of that size.

Don't you really mean "overweight according to the somewhat arbitrary 'standards' that a manufacturers' group has established. 'Standards' that can be complied with but merely paying the manufacturers' group some money and then 'self-certifying' "?

1. people that buy a boat, can be concerned about that number. I think it is a big plus to get a great wake, and be under that number.

2. Sheriffs and people that pull you over use that number and passenger figure and will give a ticket if over.

3. Manufacturers are concerned over building a boat with stock ballast that puts a boat over.

I mean, there is the saying, "if momma aint happy, ain't no one happy." Wives look at that number and bitch when dads load there boat over that number. If you aren't concerned with that number, cool. Don't worry about it.

That picture dennis is showing, is from our continued testing. We want to set 3 benchmarks on my boat. The Sac'd out mark, which you saw first, with pics of Chase and James launching into orbit. And then this picture from dennis above. There are more.

That picture was made with 250 hard tank on surf side filled. 565 lbs in rear locker, surf side filled. To simulate a custom sac. 400 lbs in front on surf side. No other ballast. So that is:

250
565
400
--------
~1250 ballast.

me, RJ, maddie, Thomas, Jessie in boat. That adds MAYBE 750.

Dennis, I love you man, but how did you get 2400, you were OUT of the boat?

That is 2000 lbs, well under the manuf. weight rating. Here is the amazing thing. We ran this setup with dennis IN the boat and Thomas and Maddie surfing. Wake was great, here it is:

And here was the attitude of the boat, kissing rub rail, with dennis IN the boat. Taps was at 2-3, speed 11.5 or so.

Now, here was the amazing thing. Dennis gets in the water, he is 260lbs. Maddie and Tbone are maybe 60-80lbs wet. We get him up, and the wake is a bit smaller, and also I look at the rub rail, it is about 1.5 inches above the water. So I tell RJ to set TAPS to 5. He does, and then I look down, and we are kissing the rub rail again! My 24Ve didn't react this easily to taps or weight. We were able to compensate for lost weight with taps, the convex V hull sank in the water.

Here is the pic showing the attitude when dennis is OUT of the boat, and everything else the same.

NOTE: We didn't have Bre with us, or her camera. She had a Canon EOS 7D with a wide angle lens and was laying on the sun deck, she took the pics with camera laying on the sundeck, which I think is a great position, it is level with the approx top of wake.

On this day, goofy day, we had our Rebel XT with normal 28-55 lens, and also I had to monitor video cams, do rope, and take pics. Pictures were taken from EYE level from a 6'2" dude sitting in ballast seat.

I just mean if that number doesn't concern you or have any bearing on you, then you should continue to ignore it I guess.

Over the years, I have either been in a boat, or driven a boat with a lot of people and pulled over 2-3 times. Busy weekend days in SoCal. Warned or ticketed for unsafe loading, and each time they referred to the sticker of manufacturer rating as the benchmark.

Hasn't happened since up here in oroville, we almost never go out on the weekends.

I think the average boater sees that number as what the manufacturer deems the safe limit to load there boat.

I just mean if that number doesn't concern you or have any bearing on you, then you should continue to ignore it I guess.

The discussion is amusing, hence my participation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragboy

Over the years, I have either been in a boat, or driven a boat with a lot of people and pulled over 2-3 times. Busy weekend days in SoCal. Warned or ticketed for unsafe loading, and each time they referred to the sticker of manufacturer rating as the benchmark.

So you've been ticketed for unsafe loading? Or you've been in a boat that was ticketed? If what you claim is true, then I'm surprised that you haven't just taken the plate off.

I've been approached many times by the authorities(when we only loaded one side and before wakesurfing was as popular as it is now) because we would lean so much that they thought we were in distress.

No problems at all on the Delta, Powell, Tahoe, Shasta, Berryessa, Oroville, Lake Sonoma, Bullards Bar, Whiskeytown, etc. Lots of head scratching by them sometimes but never a ticket, or threat of a ticket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ragboy

I think the average boater sees that number as what the manufacturer deems the safe limit to load there boat.

"safe limit" as seen through the prism of our litigious society and a manufacturer's desire to limit potential liability maybe.

"Manufacturers are concerned over building a boat with stock ballast that puts a boat over."

I still don't understand the point that you were trying to make here.

Over what? Over the capacity plate rating (however arbitrary that number is)? Roll over?

i was told by a dealer that the weight capacity listed on a boat was the wieght when swamped the boat would be suspended for 20 minutes before sinking ..... im not saying thats true just what a dealer once told me ...... ive also heard that the weight issue would be a course of action for the authorities to use if wakesurfing was to be scrutinized

i find it hard to believe that a law person who pulled you over for unsafe boating activity would let you go if you didnt have a manufacturers weight limit plate ...... they will do what they want when they want

no, thats not the deck, its from the vent above, and sometimes the rubrail when we weight down that much, which we don't often. The rubrail can make a cut, but the above is just foam from the vent, and that was just cosmetic. This deck on the 2010 has very little lip, and tige redesigned in 2008 to also be smaller. If it did cut into the wake, I would rip it off and make an aluminum one like I did before.

I am glad I don't plan on weighting past the rubrail much, I would hate to comtemplate removing it for a cleaner wake. ;-)

Hope they stay away from the parabolics having been there and done that. The transition from the foam to the hard edge of the stringer at the heel will very quickly tear and cause failure. The extreme density differences allow the heel dents to smash the foam, but of course the wooden stringer stays at it original shape and with the right angle eventually tears the glass. Warvel and Loher from Resin Research tried to address that with the WMD - they placed a wood laminate over the top of the stringer and area under the heel. Changes the characteristics of the board, though, as does additional layers of glass. The current rail channels are really effective and I'd think lighter.

Hard to see, but you can see the quick fix covering the deck tear - 2 x 4 oz. This happened on the weekend before we were to leave on Wednesday for the 2008 worlds. The Elevation might me wide enough to place the stringers out of the way of the heel, but if it's within the distance of a heel dent, the deck lamination will tear at the stringer. Foam compresses, wood doesn't and fiberglass in resin tears quite nicely.

...and a twinzer fin option! You can read about the power of the twinzer fin pod on FlyBoy Wakesurf from back in May...and be sure to stay tuned to that website for the NEXT innovation to reach SS.

I'm busting their chops because that placement borrowed heavily from Wil Jobson's full on Twinzer and Rusty's C-5's and we spent years refining in collaboration with TWP. One of the things that James and I talked about was his board brand spurring some additional R&D by the big players, glad to see this happening as that can ONLY help progress the sport. Good things for consumers!