Comments on Faqir Chand believed in removing people from churchTypePad2019-05-08T01:42:36ZBrian Hineshttps://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/05/faqir-chand-believed-in-removing-people-from-church/comments/atom.xml/seeker commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ef962200c2019-05-20T06:35:13Z2019-05-21T03:31:23ZseekerHi Anon, any update on your follow-up question to Ishwar?<p>Hi Anon, any update on your follow-up question to Ishwar? </p>seeker commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a486c1f5200d2019-05-14T06:52:49Z2019-05-14T19:09:38ZseekerThanks Anon, I appreciate your willingness to help yourself and others too with this confusion. I have met Ishwar a...<p>Thanks Anon, I appreciate your willingness to help yourself and others too with this confusion. </p>
<p>I have met Ishwar a couple of times but never got a chance to speak with him regarding Faqir. I sometimes wish whatever he says is true but the mind does not allow. Sometimes all of it makes sense and sometimes it just does not.</p>
<p>If Faqir is true then we do not need to follow human beings as living gods. We can follow people if we like them, but in Sant Mat, people treat them as Gods. </p>
<p>Thanks again Anon, waiting for Ishwar&#39;s response.</p>Jen commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4ab4769200b2019-05-13T23:13:53Z2019-05-14T03:28:22ZJenSpence, I agree with Dungeness. I was very impressed with your son's words "Shadow and I saved the world today,...<p>Spence, I agree with Dungeness. I was very impressed with your son&#39;s words &quot;Shadow and I saved the world today, Dad!&quot;. There you go, a bit of magic from a beautiful being... your son. <br />
</p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d7afc200c2019-05-13T22:57:15Z2019-05-14T03:28:22ZAnonSpence you wrote If the outer Gurinder cannot be held accountable to the common rules of the vows, of moral...<p>Spence you wrote <br />
If the outer Gurinder cannot be held accountable to the common rules of the vows, of moral living, then can the gratitude of those who love him be understood by common outer rules either?</p>
<p>You are making the assumption that he cannot be held accountable, it’s a allegation someone has made against him. Instead of jumping to conclusions why not wait and see what happens. <br />
An example of this is the case with Ishwar Puri claiming that FC’s son succeeded him when it turned out to be a misunderstanding. Many on this blog is jumped to the conclusion that he was whitewashing or changing the story to suit it whereas it was an actual mistake and done unintentionally. I’m sure there is a perfectly good story for this as well, and I think it’s vest to wait for it instead of drawing our own conclusions. Fair?</p>Dungeness commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a486a471200d2019-05-13T21:09:15Z2019-05-14T03:28:22ZDungenessHe replied with a casual sense of accomplishment "Shadow and I saved the world today, Dad!" Spencer, you already know...<p><i><br />
He replied with a casual sense of accomplishment &quot;Shadow and I saved the world today, Dad!&quot; <br />
</i><br />
Spencer, you already know and I don&#39;t mean to over-personalize but I think your son<br />
is very strong... an example for all.</p>Dungeness commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d742d200c2019-05-13T20:57:15Z2019-05-14T03:28:22ZDungenessIshwar: " I regret this mistake. I will clarify this in one of my future talks. Thanks for bringing this...<p><i><br />
Ishwar: &quot; I regret this mistake. I will clarify this in one of my future talks. Thanks for bringing this to my notice. Love and regards, Ishwar Puri &quot;</p>
<p>It is indeed a mistake and an unintentional one. He did not mean to mislead anyone.<br />
</i><br />
Hi Anon,</p>
<p>Thank you for clarifying Ishwar was mis-informed. </p>
<p>[ Sigh, If only I were as gracious when informed of my mistakes... ] </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4869895200d2019-05-13T18:08:46Z2019-05-13T19:54:43ZSpence TepperHi Anon! You wrote: "Spence with all due respect to you, you don’t speak like you are grateful though." Please...<p>Hi Anon!<br />
You wrote:<br />
&quot;Spence with all due respect to you, you don’t speak like you are grateful though.&quot;</p>
<p>Please tell me what gratitude looks like to you.</p>
<p>To me it is absolute obedience, but that obedience is to the inner Truth. And then you have the problem of illusion. But if you are not truthful to the Master inside you, to your own self, then I think that is not grateful...Even if you err in your efforts to be Truthful to yourself. So it can be outside and inside...and they rarely match anyway, but seeing both, acknowledging both is important, since here we live in the world of mind. And within we can also be bound by mind. It&#39;s a daily climb, I&#39;d say. And not with perfect results.</p>
<p>What&#39;s your take?</p>
<p>If the outer Gurinder cannot be held accountable to the common rules of the vows, of moral living, then can the gratitude of those who love him be understood by common outer rules either?</p>
<p>I am following His direct orders, but of course, those are the ones he gave me within...to be True.<br />
</p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d5e91200c2019-05-13T15:32:19Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZAnonSeeker that was my follow up question to him. I’ll let you know when he replies.<p>Seeker that was my follow up question to him. I’ll let you know when he replies. </p>seeker commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d44e2200c2019-05-13T07:24:16Z2019-05-13T19:54:44Zseeker*Was he really knowing ^^^^<p>*Was he really knowing ^^^^</p>seeker commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4867200200d2019-05-13T06:22:21Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZseekerThanks Anon for this clarification. However did he reply to you regarding what Faqir Chand meant by calling himself unknowing?...<p>Thanks Anon for this clarification. However did he reply to you regarding what Faqir Chand meant by calling himself unknowing? Was he really unknowing as per Ishwar Puri? Because he said in one of his talks that Faqir Chand was being humble. It is all too confusing isn&#39;t it?</p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d2fb4200c2019-05-13T00:05:53Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZAnonSpence with all due respect to you, you don’t speak like you are grateful though.<p>Spence with all due respect to you, you don’t speak like you are grateful though. </p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4865f62200d2019-05-13T00:04:34Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZAnonDavid and Seeker I received a response from Mr Ishwar Puri it’s as follows I only heard from some followers...<p>David and Seeker I received a response from Mr Ishwar Puri it’s as follows<br />
I only heard from some followers of Dr I. C. Sharma that when Dr Sharma was in USA he claimed to be the son of Baba Faqir Chand. Now I learn he was not the biological son of Baba Faqir Chand so my statement was incorrect. I regret this mistake. I will clarify this in one of my future talks. Thanks for bringing this to my notice. <br />
Love and regards, <br />
Ishwar Puri </p>
<p>It is indeed a mistake and an unintentional one. He did not mean to mislead anyone. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d283b200c2019-05-12T21:53:44Z2019-05-12T21:53:44ZSpence TepperAhimsa, I believe inner Baba Ji's duty is cradle to grave, and when I could not be with my son,...<p>Ahimsa, I believe inner Baba Ji&#39;s duty is cradle to grave, and when I could not be with my son, He (&quot;shadow&quot;) was his constant companion. For which I am eternally grateful. </p>Ahimsa commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aaeef0200b2019-05-12T21:06:10Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZAhimsa It's OK Spence, no judgment We all have our lots of love and care to handle from birth to death...<p>It&#39;s OK Spence, no judgment</p>
<p>We all have our lots of love and care to handle from birth to death in our lives of action reaction and submission.</p>
<p>As do the gurus, it&#39;s just a matter of different levels of responsibility. </p>
<p>Also of insight and appreciation. </p>
<p>There&#39;s no hard and fast rule as to where duty and devotion begins and ends. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aaebca200b2019-05-12T20:14:35Z2019-05-13T19:54:44ZSpence Tepper Hi Ahimsa Whom do you think was "Shadow?" If you can accept this has already happened, and that I am...<p>Hi Ahimsa</p>
<p>Whom do you think was &quot;Shadow?&quot; </p>
<p><br />
If you can accept this has already happened, and that I am doing the job Gurindar, and specifically Maharaji have directed, then I think you get my post. </p>
<p>But if your Gurinder is different from mine, can you accept that also? </p>
<p>The same person can have a different relationship with different people. </p>
<p>I&#39;m sure it would take a lot to accept what I&#39;ve written. But if you could accept it as my personal world view, I don&#39;t think Gurinder would mind in the least. He might prefer it. But that will be your own Gurinder, either outer or inner. <br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a48650f3200d2019-05-12T19:49:24Z2019-05-12T19:49:24ZSpence Tepper Hi Ahimsa Yes... Yes...<p>Hi Ahimsa<br />
Yes... Yes... </p>Ahimsa commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aae685200b2019-05-12T18:49:11Z2019-05-12T18:49:11ZAhimsa Nice post Spence Tepper Now try applying your great compassion to your relationship with Gurinder because the same way you...<p>Nice post Spence Tepper</p>
<p>Now try applying your great compassion to your relationship with Gurinder because the same way you see your son is the same way he sees you. </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aae14b200b2019-05-12T17:08:00Z2019-05-12T17:08:00ZDavid LaneDear Spence, That was a beautiful post and shows a great sense of compassion. Thanks so much for it.<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>That was a beautiful post and shows a great sense of compassion.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for it.</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aad90b200b2019-05-12T14:38:43Z2019-05-12T16:33:11ZSpence TepperHi David! I wanted to thank you very much for the time you took to reply. We do have different...<p>Hi David!<br />
I wanted to thank you very much for the time you took to reply. <br />
We do have different views, but it looks like we are both somewhere in the science camp, preferring hard science where it is available. </p>
<p>My range of acceptable views may be broader than yours. I&#39;m willing to accept someone&#39;s truth as fine for them, even healthy for them, on face value. </p>
<p>But when they wish to claim their view as some larger universal truth, then my comb gets much finer, because science is not one person&#39;s opinion. </p>
<p>As an experimental psychologist by training, with a minor in multivariate statistics, my orientation effects my world view. Before that I was a surface physics major, but could not stand the long hours alone in the lab. </p>
<p>Imagery and fantasy are how the mind functions. We are viewing the world through a construction. So if someone sees unicorns every day galloping through the streets of their city, and has Unicorn friends, and this is actually part of their happiness, then I view that just as essential to them as a remembrance of riding a fantastic wave to you. And I&#39;m likely to ask what their favorite Unicorn did today. </p>
<p>My son has special neurological needs. As a child no one would play with him. Parents of several kids with special needs formed play groups, but it still had its limits. </p>
<p>I came to his school at the teacher&#39;s request just to watch him during recess. All the children were running and playing with each other. Sam was alone, pacing the edges of the playground, looking down and pensive. </p>
<p>No one would play with him simply because due to his neurological impairments he could not catch or throw a ball. And so he was never invited to join a game. </p>
<p>The contrast of seeing other children smiling and sunny, joking with each other, running with each other, and my son in deep contemplation entirely alone, isolated, was soul crushing. </p>
<p>But at the end of this day when I picked him up I asked him, &quot;How was your day?&quot; </p>
<p>He replied with a casual sense of accomplishment &quot;Shadow and I saved the world today, Dad!&quot; </p>
<p>This was the miraculous gift of imagination. </p>
<p>This was a real part of Sam&#39;s happiness at that time. In fact it was survival. </p>
<p>Then, I volunteered to be at school two days a week for recess and then it became an event at recess and we played games with many kids, always making sure Sam was a part of that. </p>
<p>Eventually Shadow faded into the background and Sam acknowledged he was just an imaginary friend. But he also said it was too private to discuss. I consider it sacred </p>
<p>Life has so little happiness for many. Humans must make their pleasures, generally, when their world, in so many cases, is devastating, and poverty and illness stricken. </p>
<p>Work in hospitals over four decades, and mental health programs before that, has shown me that things don&#39;t end well for all of us. And it often doesn&#39;t proceed well either. Inner happiness becomes our only happiness, and then we are happier people, and then we are happier and can connect b with others, even be helpful to others. </p>
<p>The world we build within ourselves can bring us some happiness. And that we can share. </p>
<p>If a traumatized todler begins to believe they were a heroic pilot, then that is there system. And I honour it as sacred. </p>
<p>My only concern is Ahimsa, that we do this without harm to anyone else or ourselves. Then anything is permissible, and a great trainer of wild unicorns worthy of praise. <br />
</p>B2 commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45d0a7d200c2019-05-12T13:41:12Z2019-05-12T16:33:11ZB2Hi Osho, I was hoping someone would comment on your post on May 8, 9:22 PM, and at the very...<p>Hi Osho,<br />
I was hoping someone would comment on your post on May 8, 9:22 PM, and at the very least I could continue to sit as a spectator. But since no one has made a comment, I felt obliged to say &quot;thank you&quot; to you. </p>
<p>Being an RS myself for almost 30 years, (although not pissed off by their teachings). RS has a place in the world as much as other religions, sects, beliefs, but a toning down of the &quot;perfectness&quot; is desperately needed so seekers are not left in the RS net of teachings. I have come to realise, after throwing away that sticky net, that one must eventually walk the path alone. The small strand of hair in our eye that is obstructing our understanding of the Truth is our own making.</p>
<p>Your post -</p>
<p>&quot;So now even GSD&#39;s message makes sense<br />
&quot;I will not come as your death&quot;<br />
disciple: &quot;Why not?&quot;<br />
&quot;Because there is no ME and no YOU and NO SACH KHAND to take you to&quot;</p>
<p>says it all.</p>
<p>Hoping a lot more seekers can rub their eyes and see &quot;Rubh&quot;.</p>Dungeness commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a48611a0200d2019-05-11T21:28:27Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZDungenessDonald Trump is well known and he lies constantly. So what does being well known have to do with Ishwar...<p><i><br />
Donald Trump is well known and he lies constantly. So what does being well known have to do with Ishwar Puri making up falsehoods?<br />
</i><br />
How do you Ishwar made them up? Couldn&#39;t he have relayed mistaken info<br />
he heard from someone else? </p>
<p>Perhaps ya had a mystic vision of his Pinocchio Meter glowing red hot... </p>
<p>Anyway, if Ishwar goes &quot;Full Donald&quot; on the pending CofC Inquisition, he&#39;ll<br />
ignore subpoenas or start a counter investigation. Think back to all the lies<br />
ya told the kids... </p>Tinkie commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4860db5200d2019-05-11T20:12:21Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZTinkieSince this conversation has apparently taken on a new form, here is an interesting article published by STUFF NZ on...<p>Since this conversation has apparently taken on a new form, here is an interesting article published by STUFF NZ on April 11 2019. Of course none of you will, but if you care to read the following, &quot; The First Image of a Black Hoale Has Been Revealed By Scientists.&quot; I am not very clever but my take on things is in the comment I made as Sunyata. Scroll down to find it, if you so wish. It is also my &quot;take&quot; on NADA (The true meaning of the SHABD - perhaps!). I was given birth by Nada, and my name in reverse is Adnil. ( +0). Total emptiness! You can make anyone believe anything if you have the gift of the gab, be it true or otherwise.</p>seeker commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4860c0d200d2019-05-11T19:45:03Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZseekerAnon I will interested to know what Mr. Puri says regarding Faqir Chand. Even I have the same question as...<p>Anon </p>
<p>I will interested to know what Mr. Puri says regarding Faqir Chand. Even I have the same question as you, though somehow I agree with David&#39;s comment. Please do post his reply here. Waiting. Thanks. </p>Mike England commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aaa645200b2019-05-11T19:40:36Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZMike England Dear David Thank you for taking your time to reply to my riposte. I understand what you are saying and...<p>Dear David<br />
Thank you for taking your time to reply to my riposte.<br />
I understand what you are saying and see the logic in it.<br />
I like your surfing story with the surfer lingo too. The eternity of 6 seconds is interesting indeed.<br />
I had a really nice day with my Brother today. We spent 6 hours together. It seemed like minutes. <br />
Time is eternal....Sometimes </p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aaa02a200b2019-05-11T18:11:15Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZAnonBrian Donald trump does not care to hoots if he tells the truth or not. I don’t think it’s he...<p>Brian <br />
Donald trump does not care to hoots if he tells the truth or not. I don’t think it’s he same with Mr Puri this is why I’m doubting it’s intentional. Let’s see what he replies. </p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aaa009200b2019-05-11T18:08:29Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZAnon Hi David, Fair enough. I have brought this up with Mr. Puri when he replied I will let you know....<p>Hi David,<br />
Fair enough. I have brought this up with Mr. Puri when he replied I will let you know. Thanks </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ccff3200c2019-05-11T17:26:02Z2019-05-12T02:20:51ZDavid LaneDear Anon, Ishwar said that Faqir Chand's own son succeeded him as a guru and that he claimed that this...<p>Dear Anon,</p>
<p>Ishwar said that Faqir Chand&#39;s own son succeeded him as a guru and that he claimed that this son alleged to &quot;know&quot; about his manifestations.</p>
<p>This is completely wrong and not even close to being accurate.</p>
<p>So is Ishwar a reliable source on Faqir Chand, especially when almost all of Faqir&#39;s own writings, satsangs, and talks say that he was completely unaware of appearing to his disciples and that this very realization was the key to his enlightenment?</p>
<p>I think not at all.</p>
<p>In addition, the present leader of Manavta Mandir, Professor Bhagat Ram Kamal has known Faqir Chand since 1956 and underlines exactly what Faqir (not Ishwar) stated.</p>
<p>I think it is wise to trust Faqir Chand&#39;s own statements in this regard, especially given Ishwar&#39;s obvious mistakes about Faqir.</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ccf39200c2019-05-11T17:17:51Z2019-05-11T17:21:03ZBlogger Brianhttps://profile.typepad.com/brihinesAnon, Donald Trump is well known and he lies constantly. So what does being well known have to do with...<p>Anon, Donald Trump is well known and he lies constantly. So what does being well known have to do with Ishwar Puri making up falsehoods? Well known people frequently are liars.</p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45cceb8200c2019-05-11T17:07:16Z2019-05-12T02:20:52ZAnon Hi David Regarding ishwar puris claim about Baba Faqir Chand being humble when he said that he has no awareness...<p>Hi David<br />
Regarding ishwar puris claim about Baba Faqir Chand being humble when he said that he has no awareness of his deciples vision of him. He (ishwar) claims in his video that he knew him personally (like you do) and actually had conversations with him and that he was informed by Faqir Chand that this was his ploy to make people meditate. Is it possible that this is true? Would we even know if we’re not there. Ishwar is well known and that he is making things up is hard to believe. </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45cce6f200c2019-05-11T16:58:43Z2019-05-12T02:20:52ZDavid LaneDear Spence, I spelled out my reasons why I think it is fine to have others question my subjective experiences...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>I spelled out my reasons why I think it is fine to have others question my subjective experiences or recounting of the same. I have found it helpful, even when observers from the outside may not be<br />
that well informed. </p>
<p>Having taught undergraduates and graduates for over 35 years, I have learned much from those<br />
who question and doubt my subjective realm.</p>
<p>You have a different take on it. We simply disagree on this issue.</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ccc1e200c2019-05-11T16:26:33Z2019-05-12T02:20:52ZSpence TepperHi David You wrote "In your various posts I am a bit surprised that you take issue with individuals questioning...<p>Hi David<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;In your various posts I am a bit surprised that you take issue with individuals questioning another&#39;s subjective experiences.</p>
<p>&quot; I think it is altogether healthy to have one question such things, even with those who may not be that well informed.&quot;</p>
<p>But you may have missed my rationale... <br />
&quot; Without evidence, without investigation, and only mere opinion, there is no science, just a debate between prejudice and experience. Hardly worth the dialogue.&quot;</p>
<p>And you may have also missed this... </p>
<p>&quot; Without a basis of experience, preferably scientific, could just be a waste of time. If the conjecture is not based upon an understanding of the experience, it may just be a distillation of ignorance. And when facts are provided and the person who raises the conjecture refuses to acknowledge that information, or dismisses it summarily, then you have neither science nor critical thinking. You have ignorance defending its perspective. You have prejudice justifying itself.</p>
<p>&quot;Truth Invites Inspection. But critique alone isn&#39;t inspection.&quot; </p>
<p>If one&#39;s intention is to learn, to investigate, then from that form an opinion, conjecture serves the purpose of generating testable hypotheses. </p>
<p>But if one has no intention to learn, but uses conjecture to dismiss someone else&#39;s actual experience, that is ignorance giving itself false credence. </p>
<p>Why make anyone wrong? </p>
<p>Unless you are seeking to find truth. That&#39;s not past tense. That&#39;s ongoing. </p>
<p>When conjectures are made about people we have never met, and their private experiences, that is pushing away informtion that challenges one&#39;s world view. It is the opposite of an open mind investigating new information guided by scientific principles. </p>
<p>Instead it is a closed mind filtering out new information summarily. </p>
<p>&quot;The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.&quot; <br />
Daniel J. Boorstin</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485fd6b200d2019-05-11T16:13:03Z2019-05-12T02:20:52ZSpence TepperHi David You wrote "You must certainly be aware that this entire episode concerning the boy has been found to...<p>Hi David<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;You must certainly be aware that this entire episode concerning the boy has been<br />
found to be very questionable and has many loopholes in it, especially since the very story was told after the fact many years later by his parents.&quot;</p>
<p>Actually David, the parents contacted others, verified, about the event when the boy was two years old and having nightmares. And in 2002, when the boy was four years old, their testimony was recorded in an ABC news special. </p>
<p>Your statement <br />
&#39;the very story was told after the fact many years later by his parents.&#39; does not actually square with the research article. </p>
<p>May I ask what your sources were? </p>
<p><br />
What I was referring to is the painstaking way the author reviews the sequence of dated and publicly available evidence, but doesn&#39;t end there. Rather they dig deeper into the records to uncover information no one could have known initially. And they review other practical explanations to build a hierarchy of probable causes. But the point is that this is the level of detail one must go through to tease out all practical possibilities. </p>
<p></p>
<p><br />
</p>Arjuna commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa8acb200b2019-05-11T11:35:46Z2019-05-12T02:20:52ZArjuna @ Brian - hello I read recently that scientists are working on a laser to fire into empty space to...<p>@ Brian - hello</p>
<p>I read recently that scientists are working on a laser to fire into empty space to break it up. Every time they try such an experiment some other unique particle appears. Until reading the new scientist article I did not know that “space” ie the area around us is not entirely empty and even space is made up off particles. Although we cannot see what space is made up off -as you mentioned above.</p>
<p>I would love to hear more from people on their thoughts on what would happen if space was ripped apart. On at a small level.<br />
</p>Mike England commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45cb809200c2019-05-11T10:15:55Z2019-05-11T10:15:55ZMike England Dear Spence & David When Titans clash. Loving this healthy discussion with great explanations in both sides. Keep going please...<p>Dear Spence &amp; David<br />
When Titans clash.<br />
Loving this healthy discussion with great explanations in both sides.<br />
Keep going please 🤩</p>J commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485e560200d2019-05-11T08:05:15Z2019-05-11T08:05:15ZJI googled "do we totally understand gravity" and some scientists say we in fact don't. https://tinyurl.com/yyf3x8b3<p>I googled &quot;do we totally understand gravity&quot; and some scientists say we in fact don&#39;t.</p>
<p><a href="https://tinyurl.com/yyf3x8b3" rel="nofollow">https://tinyurl.com/yyf3x8b3</a></p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa8107200b2019-05-11T07:32:13Z2019-05-11T07:32:13ZDavid LaneDear Spence, In your various posts I am a bit surprised that you take issue with individuals questioning another's subjective...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>In your various posts I am a bit surprised that you take issue with individuals questioning another&#39;s subjective experiences.</p>
<p>I think it is altogether healthy to have one question such things, even with those who may not be that well informed.</p>
<p>Why? Because such questions or such doubts allow me the opportunity to think deeper about the issue at hand.</p>
<p>I know in my life that is certainly the case.</p>
<p>But perhaps that is why we are having this to and fro discussion.</p>
<p>We just see these issues differently.</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa80ed200b2019-05-11T07:27:03Z2019-05-11T07:27:03ZDavid LaneDear Spence, I just checked the link and it went to the article I mentioned. Not sure what happened in...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>I just checked the link and it went to the article I mentioned. Not sure what happened in<br />
your clicking.</p>
<p>Here is the link again, hope it works.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.integralworld.net/lane96.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.integralworld.net/lane96.html</a></p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa80d2200b2019-05-11T07:20:36Z2019-05-11T07:20:36ZDavid LaneDear Spence, I am a bit unclear about your recent posts. I want to make sure that I don't misinterpret...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>I am a bit unclear about your recent posts. I want to make sure that I don&#39;t misinterpret what you are suggesting.</p>
<p>You cite the following the case of James<br />
Leininger and give the following:</p>
<p>&quot;Abstract: Numerous cases of young children who report<br />
memories of previous lives have been studied over the last<br />
50 years. Though such cases are more easily found in cultures<br />
that have a general belief in reincarnation, they occur in the<br />
West as well. This article describes the case of James<br />
Leininger, an American child who at age two began having<br />
intense nightmares of a plane crash. He then described being<br />
an American pilot who was killed when his plane was shot<br />
down by the Japanese. He gave details that included the name<br />
of an American aircraft carrier, the first and last name of a<br />
friend who was on the ship with him, and a location and other<br />
specifics about the fatal crash. His parents eventually discov-<br />
ered a close correspondence between James&#39;s statements and<br />
the death of a World War II pilot named James Huston.<br />
Documentation of James&#39;s statements that was made before<br />
Huston was identified includes a television interview with his<br />
parents that never aired but which the author has been able to<br />
review. Key words: reincarnation, memory&quot;&quot;</p>
<p>You must certainly be aware that this entire episode concerning the boy has been<br />
found to be very questionable and has many loopholes in it, especially since the very story was told after the fact many years later by his parents.</p>
<p>I even wrote about it myself in that article I linked earlier.</p>
<p>So, do you really think this particular story &quot;prove[s] beyond a reasonable doubt that these children had independent knowledge of several verified points about someone who lived in the past, where no one around them could have possibly had access to those detailed points of information&quot;???</p>
<p>Sorry, but we are not in Kansas anymore if you think that story is evidential.</p>
<p>But perhaps you are just referencing that story as a case of bad science?</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485e339200d2019-05-11T07:14:35Z2019-05-11T07:14:35ZSpence TepperHi David I followed the link you provided, and ended up, somehow at "Discover a Revolutionary New Technology For Your...<p>Hi David<br />
I followed the link you provided, and ended up, somehow at <br />
&quot;Discover a Revolutionary New Technology For Your Mind<br />
To Activate Your Super Human Potential and Become<br />
The Greatest Possible Version of Yourself.. A free global online event by Keen Wilbur...&quot;</p>
<p>The greatest possible version of myself is empty space. Is that what Ken is selling? </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa8066200b2019-05-11T07:10:35Z2019-05-11T07:10:35ZDavid LaneDear Dungeness, Ishwar Puri, not me, claimed that Faqir Chand appointed his son as his successor and guru. Not true....<p>Dear Dungeness, </p>
<p>Ishwar Puri, not me, claimed that Faqir Chand appointed his son as his successor and guru.</p>
<p>Not true.</p>
<p>Ishwar Puri, not me, claimed that Faqir Chand&#39;s son went so far as to claim to &quot;know&quot; about his<br />
appearances (contradicting his father).</p>
<p>Not true.</p>
<p>Ishwar Puri, not me, claimed that Faqir Chand was simply being humble about claiming not to know about his appearances and did such to motivate others to focus on meditation.</p>
<p>Not accurate and not true.</p>
<p>Such inaccuracies, especially in light of the plethora of Faqir Chand&#39;s numerous writings, is<br />
a bit mind-boggling to say the least.</p>
<p>Ishwar mentions the Unknowing Sage, but calls it the Unknowing Saint, implying that he is well aware of Faqir Chand&#39;s life.</p>
<p>But on fundamental details he gets it completely wrong.</p>
<p>So, yes, I definitely hope that you are right and that I am mistaken about my Ishwar&#39;s motives and why he got such information so wrong.</p>
<p>Perhaps he could double check his own sources before making YouTube videos about Faqir Chand and then have that misinformation spread and then have others infected by such<br />
fake news.</p>
<p>Ishwar is free to correct his mistakes.</p>
<p>I will be happy to change my views on his motivations if he does that.</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485e247200d2019-05-11T06:50:59Z2019-05-11T06:50:59ZSpence TepperHi Gerber You wrote "Actually, doubting the "truthiness" of another subjective experience can be very helpful and enlightening." According to...<p>Hi Gerber<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;Actually, doubting the &quot;truthiness&quot; of another subjective experience can be very helpful and<br />
enlightening.&quot;</p>
<p>According to who? And to what purpose? If you have reason to doubt then offer your evidence but if all you have is conjecture, that&#39;s just replacing one idea you don&#39;t like with another you do.... And without evidence it may be replacing an idea you don&#39;t like with a prejudice you do, and not doing the work of gathering evidence, and real investigation. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot;Our legal system does it all the time, especially with witnesses.&quot; </p>
<p>The legal process is exactly the opposite of mere critique. In a court you must do your investigation and bring real evidence to light. That&#39;s the difference between opinion and fact. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot; I don&#39;t see why &quot;conjecturing&quot; (to use your terminology) about another&#39;s subjective experience is frowned upon.&quot;</p>
<p>Without evidence, without investigation, and only mere opinion, there is no science, just a debate between prejudice and experience. Hardly worth the dialogue. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot; Their questions and doubts and &quot;conjectures&quot; might be an avenue of seeing things in a different and perhaps more helpful light.&quot;</p>
<p>Or just meaningless and unrealistic alternatives. Without a basis of experience, preferably scientific, could just be a waste of time. If the conjecture is not based upon an understanding of the experience, it may just be a distillation of ignorance. And when facts are provided and the person who raises the conjecture refuses to acknowledge that information, or dismisses it summarily, then you have neither science nor critical thinking. You have ignorance defending its perspective. You have prejudice justifying itself. </p>
<p>Truth Invites Inspection. But critique alone isn&#39;t inspection. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485e0b5200d2019-05-11T06:17:54Z2019-05-11T06:17:54ZSpence TepperIn short David, you may test your own conjectures against the actual scientific evidence. Yes, any scientific result can be...<p>In short David, you may test your own conjectures against the actual scientific evidence. </p>
<p>Yes, any scientific result can be overturned. But the point of science is to reduce that likelihood, which in those cases they have done, beyond any reasonable doubt. That&#39;s why we use science. </p>
<p>If you honor science, even if the evidence goes against your beliefs, then at least you are a credible proponent of science. </p>
<p>These studies, by the way, don&#39;t prove reincarnation exists. They only prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these children had independent knowledge of several verified points about someone who lived in the past, where no one around them could have possibly had access to those detailed points of information. </p>
<p>You are a scholar, please take a closer look. It&#39;s fascinating reading. </p>
<p>&quot;Abstract: Numerous cases of young children who report<br />
memories of previous lives have been studied over the last<br />
50 years. Though such cases are more easily found in cultures<br />
that have a general belief in reincarnation, they occur in the<br />
West as well. This article describes the case of James<br />
Leininger, an American child who at age two began having<br />
intense nightmares of a plane crash. He then described being<br />
an American pilot who was killed when his plane was shot<br />
down by the Japanese. He gave details that included the name<br />
of an American aircraft carrier, the first and last name of a<br />
friend who was on the ship with him, and a location and other<br />
specifics about the fatal crash. His parents eventually discov-<br />
ered a close correspondence between James&#39;s statements and<br />
the death of a World War II pilot named James Huston.<br />
Documentation of James&#39;s statements that was made before<br />
Huston was identified includes a television interview with his<br />
parents that never aired but which the author has been able to<br />
review.<br />
Key words: reincarnation, memory&quot;</p>
<p><a href="https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/academic-publications/" rel="nofollow">https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/academic-publications/</a></p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485dec7200d2019-05-11T05:47:38Z2019-05-11T05:47:38ZSpence TepperHi David The work of the Department of Perceptual Studies is painstaking, even more so since Dr. Stevenson's passing, and...<p>Hi David<br />
The work of the Department of Perceptual Studies is painstaking, even more so since Dr. Stevenson&#39;s passing, and there are indeed several dozen cases where the possibility of any practical explanation has been eliminated to a statistically significant degree. That is scientific significance, the same used to determine scientific evidence of an independent variable, independent of any practical alternative. </p>
<p>What I recommend is that you become more familiar with both these particular cases and the methods involved to determine this significance. </p>
<p>Then you will see that in these particular cases, the possibilities you have conjectured, along with several others, have been eliminated.</p>
<p>And then you can comment on them from a scientific perspective. </p>
<p>In the dark, any conjecture is possible. </p>
<p>But in these cases, that number in the dozens, out of the thousands investigated, have the probability of a spurious result reduced to the levels required for statistical significance.</p>
<p>Since you have conjectured about these things, why not honor the scholarship and the actual evidence? </p>
<p>It will disprove your conjecture that only practical and known sources could be the cause of these reports. </p>
<p>Those conjectures are reasonable in the thousands of remaining cases. But not these several dozen.</p>
<p><br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45cace1200c2019-05-11T05:35:14Z2019-05-11T05:35:14ZSpence TepperHi Gerber When you question without basis our commitment to test and confirm, then your criteria for truth is arbitrary.<p>Hi Gerber<br />
When you question without basis our commitment to test and confirm, then your criteria for truth is arbitrary. </p>Dungeness commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa7bb5200b2019-05-11T05:35:08Z2019-05-11T05:35:08ZDungenessDear David, On a recent CofC thread, you opined not only about Ishwar Puri's actions but even his motivations: Since...<p>Dear David,</p>
<p>On a recent CofC thread, you opined not only about Ishwar Puri&#39;s actions<br />
but even his motivations:</p>
<p><i><br />
Since Ishwar Puri is fond of making stuff up about Faqir Chand that is completely not true, I think it is important to set the record straight.......Why Ishwar did this is self-serving to the max.</p>
<p>I have no idea why he would invent such a story about Faqir&#39;s son, except that it<br />
allows him to claim that Faqir really did know...... but this goes against everything Faqir himself stated.</p>
<p>Ishwar has said a number of things about Faqir Chand that are not only inaccurate, but completely made up in order to whitewash Faqir&#39;s repeated statements about being<br />
&quot;unknowing&quot; about the visions attributed to him.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Currently on this thread, you suggest a strategy for informing &quot;inner experience&quot;<br />
(presumably other judgments as well) while remaining open to alternative explanation/interpretation:<br />
<i> <br />
In any case, we can take a two prong approach: describe our inner experiences phenomenologically (to get full flavor of what it was like) and still be open for alternative explanations or interpretations of what then just transpired.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Was that an &quot;inner experience&quot;, regrettable conspiracy theory, or just<br />
a snap judgment which informed your insights into Ishwar Puri&#39;s actions<br />
and motivations. Did you try to reach out in any way to Ishwar before<br />
characterizing his actions as &quot;made up in order to whitewash Faqir&#39;s<br />
repeated statements about being &#39;unknowing&#39; about the visions<br />
attributed to him?&quot; </p>
<p>Since, you remain open to alternatives, could you envision Ishwar <br />
mis-remembering or being given an erroneous narrative. Fake facts<br />
about Guru&#39;s and their families tends to go viral... </p>
<p>Or, maybe Ishwar wasn&#39;t whitewashing at all... rather he was --as <br />
Faqir did-- encouraging disciples to go &quot;inside&quot; to find the truth within<br />
themselves about miraculous powers/events? </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485de7f200d2019-05-11T05:28:13Z2019-05-11T05:28:13ZSpence TepperHi Brian Yes space time is a fact, just as is gravity. We know this by its effect on other...<p>Hi Brian<br />
Yes space time is a fact, just as is gravity. We know this by its effect on other things. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot;Space-time can&#39;t be seen, but instruments detected the ripples in it.&quot;</p>
<p>The ripples are like shock waves. We are measuring particles in a laser beam that are being pushed in waves. Basically, it&#39;s like measuring leaves floating on water. We still can&#39;t measure the water directly. </p>
<p>We know something is there by its effect on other things. Just as we know there must be gravity because the movement of celestial bodies in relation to each other tells us their mass influences each other. Einstein improved on the accuracy of this model by replacing a flat linear model with a surface that would be warped, and from there determined this would effect the passage of time, which is the movement of matter through space. </p>
<p>But what is the actual physical thing behind this invisible space time? Nothing that can be seen by any instrument. We can only detect its effect on matter. But what is it that spans empty space as the agent of this &#39;gravity&#39;... We know how space-time is warped by matter, but as far as physical detection of Particles or energy, is still empty space. </p>
<p>The problem is one of connecting general relativity to quantum merchanics, and it&#39;s still in the theoretical stages. </p>
<p><a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/atoms-of-space-and-time-2006-02/" rel="nofollow">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/atoms-of-space-and-time-2006-02/</a></p>
<p>Until these theories can be tested, w still don&#39;t know what is there in that empty space binding the planets to each other, only that they are so bound. </p>
<p><br />
</p>gerber commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485dc7a200d2019-05-11T04:50:08Z2019-05-11T04:50:08ZgerberActually, doubting the "truthiness" of another subjective experience can be very helpful and enlightening. Our legal system does it all...<p>Actually, doubting the &quot;truthiness&quot; of another subjective experience can be very helpful and<br />
enlightening.</p>
<p>Our legal system does it all the time, especially with witnesses.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t see why &quot;conjecturing&quot; (to use your terminology) about another&#39;s subjective experience is frowned upon. </p>
<p>Their questions and doubts and &quot;conjectures&quot; might be an avenue of seeing things in a different and perhaps more helpful light.</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa7970200b2019-05-11T04:42:54Z2019-05-11T04:42:54ZDavid LaneDear Spence, I can see we are indeed having differences in how we approach these subjects. Having read Ian Stevenson's...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>I can see we are indeed having differences in how we approach these subjects.</p>
<p>Having read Ian Stevenson&#39;s classic study on reincarnation and a number of his other books, and though I definitely applaud his painstaking work in this area (as did, lest we forget, Carl Sagan) I am not so certain (as you appear to be) that there are not alternative explanations arising from an admixture of childhood memories, keeping in mind that such recollections are told after the fact and must be sieved through contextual and time-laden medium.</p>
<p>As for the surfing experience I mentioned, I actually agree with your skepticism since many memories get convoluted over time..... like fish stories where the fish gets bigger in the retelling. So, yes, good to raise questions about such remembrances. </p>
<p>Actually, you don&#39;t have to accept my recollection at face value. You can certainly doubt it and that may indeed prove MORE helpful than you simply taking what I said and believing it.</p>
<p>Why? Because your doubts may jar my memory and I may remember a forgotten detail or perhaps I was indeed mistaken.</p>
<p>That I suggest is altogether healthy. Indeed, human conversation is predicated on raising such questions. Otherwise, we would be mindless zombies accepting whatever was told us from others.</p>
<p>It is fine for Einstein to believe his vision, but that doesn&#39;t make it so.</p>
<p>That is why he spent 10 years after he wrote his special theory of relativity in 1905 working on the General theory..... he wanted to make sure he got his differential equations correct so that his &quot;vision&quot; could indeed past rational scrutiny BY OTHERS..... that is how science works.</p>
<p>We come up with our hunches, our guesses, and we then test them in the cauldron of the empirical world and see how well such reflections hold up.</p>
<p>Again, my point about gravity was about the process of science not about the ontological &quot;isness&quot; of things in themselves.</p>
<p>I even lecture the first day in each of my courses on this very subject.... since nobody knows exactly what matter IS, but only certain aspects for which we have access. But this doesn&#39;t deter us from knowing about those features which we can measure and which we can manipulate. </p>
<p>For example, my car mechanic may know nothing about what IS a quantum within the gas that is filling my tank, but he can indeed fix my engine and get it running again.</p>
<p>No need to confuse the ontology of something with a practical application of how something works within a certain contextual arena.</p>
<p>Richard Feynman gives a great lecture on this very subject when he talks about the difference between knowing the name of something and actually understanding what it is.</p>
<p>I think Charan&#39;s advice was wise, but of course one makes choices about whatever advice we are given and how we respond..... sometimes smartly, sometimes stupidly.</p>
<p>As you know, there is no such thing as scientific &quot;proof&quot;. Rather given the inductive nature of science it is always tentative and thus even when we have statistical significance we still have a measure of doubt. That doubt is how science progresses, since it opens a door for further investigation by which to upturn what was believed unassailable.</p>
<p>Satoshi Kanazawa explains it this way:</p>
<p>&quot;Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.<br />
Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal (such as internal logical consistency and parsimony), scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to theories for which there is less and worse evidence. Proofs are not the currency of science.&quot;</p>
<p>You said you would not &quot;pretend to know&quot; but earlier you stated clearly that &quot;I&#39;m convinced science will discover one day the means by which children can remember their past life details that, when investigated, have no practical explanations possible.&quot;</p>
<p>The presumption here is that there is such a thing as &quot;past&quot; lives. A skeptic, of course, would question that premise and want to explore that issue deeper.</p>
<p>I think, again, we at talking past each other.</p>
<p>But I do enjoy the discussion, even if we don&#39;t see eye to eye on these interesting issues.</p>
<p>As for reincarnation and Sagan, here is a little article we wrote many moons ago.</p>
<p>Maybe it will stir up the pot!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.integralworld.net/lane96.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.integralworld.net/lane96.html</a></p>
<p><br />
</p>Blogger Brian commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa792f200b2019-05-11T04:30:16Z2019-05-11T04:33:26ZBlogger Brianhttps://profile.typepad.com/brihinesSpence, I don't get the thrust of your comment. Einstein certainly did figure out what gravity is: distortions in space-time....<p>Spence, I don&#39;t get the thrust of your comment. Einstein certainly did figure out what gravity is: distortions in space-time. Gravitational waves are ripples in space-time. See:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.space.com/17661-theory-general-relativity.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.space.com/17661-theory-general-relativity.html</a></p>
<p>You said, &quot;So something that no instrument can see connects invisibly all matter, and moves all matter proportionately, though without any mass of its own.&quot;</p>
<p>Space-time can&#39;t be seen, but instruments detected the ripples in it. Many things science knows about can&#39;t be seen, like the quantum realm. </p>
<p>Yes, there remains the difference between relativity theory and a quantum theory of gravity. But Einstein&#39;s theory of general relativity is well proven, and space-time is a fact, not conjecture.<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45caa38200c2019-05-11T04:11:48Z2019-05-11T04:11:48ZSpence TepperHi Gerber You wrote "How do we know what can and cannot be tested? Is the idea that things cannot...<p>Hi Gerber<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;How do we know what can and cannot be tested? Is the idea that things cannot be tested just another form of belief which has little value&gt;?&quot;</p>
<p>If you limit your conjecture to something you are committed to testing it has a purpose, as an hypotheses.</p>
<p>If you throw conjectures out to discredit someone else&#39;s assertion of their actual experience, that is unscientific and usually as inaccurate as any untested claim.</p>
<p>What you cannot or do not wish to test should not be conjectured because your grounds are rationalization, argumentation, not science. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ca8b7200c2019-05-11T03:56:50Z2019-05-11T03:56:50ZSpence TepperHi David Thanks for your comments. You wrote "1. The reason I brought up the recent discovery of gravitational waves...<p>Hi David<br />
Thanks for your comments. <br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;1. The reason I brought up the recent discovery of gravitational waves was to point out that sometimes it takes time for things to be tested and confirmed, as in this case it took 100 years.&quot;</p>
<p>Then testing Einstein&#39;s theory required some time. Yet he believed his vision immediately. </p>
<p>But his theory, like Newton&#39;s, was only a description of how gravity works and tells us nothing about what it is. Newton wrote &quot; I frame no hypothesis&quot; when asked what were the mechanics behind gravity. To this day we don&#39;t know. </p>
<p>The gravity waves we detect today are like shock waves from large catastrophic events in the movement and collision of matter. </p>
<p>But no actual gravity energy fields and particles have ever been detected. They aren&#39;t like light or magnetism, which have their own energy and particles involved (photons and electrons) . </p>
<p>But we detect gravity more like sound, in its movement through waves on other atomic particles of matter in two laser beams we construct. So something that no instrument can see connects invisibly all matter, and moves all matter proportionately, though without any mass of its own. </p>
<p>I pointed this out to encourage an open mind, even about things we think we know all about. We don&#39;t. </p>
<p>This understanding, David, arises out of testing every day our notions, and being proven wrong daily, more often then right.<br />
Yet when we are right repeatedly in some matters, what can we say? Can we even call that truth? Or just a lucky day? I wouldn&#39;t publish my opinions on that day or any other. They are too fallible. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot;Now, he wrote me back and basically told me about how the mind can produce all sorts of things and that they may not be reliable and that it could be illusory and so on. He also said I should be more skeptical and more critical about such subjective happenings.&quot;</p>
<p>If he told you your own ideas could be false, then do you think there is ever a time that advice should be discarded? Should those notiins be broadcast as truth? </p>
<p>And if it remains a real concern for any human being, then we can hardly evaluate ourselves, who dare evaluate anyone else with any hope of accuracy? Especially b something as hidden as their internal experience? </p>
<p>You can test your own notions yourself. But can you test someone else&#39;s actual experience? Or must you judge them on other people&#39;s experiences which you deem identical? Or against your own notions? </p>
<p>No, we are hardly in any position to do more than judge our own and amend our own thinking. Especially when that is a daily process. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot;Therefore, I don&#39;t see a problem with someone questioning our subjective experiences and how we interpret them.&quot; </p>
<p>Our own yes, but not anyone else&#39;s. And certainly not people we don&#39;t even know. </p>
<p>Because we are judging at a distance using an instrument, our brain, that can barely judge rationally our own experience. </p>
<p>That doesn&#39;t mean believing someone&#39;s subjective experience. </p>
<p>It only means accepting as truly theirs, without judging it wrong. </p>
<p>You wrote<br />
&quot;Yes, my surfing experience was indeed real at the time.&quot; </p>
<p>Really? </p>
<p>How do you know? </p>
<p>Are you so sure of your memory? </p>
<p>But more importantly, I can&#39;t possibly know if you actually had that experience as you have written it. Maybe you saw someone else and over the years remembered it as your experience, or heard someone else&#39;s telling, or read it in a book that was so compelling that over time you came to imagine it was yours. No, I have to accept it at face value. Anything else is conjecture. </p>
<p>But I believe it is so not because it sounds plausible, since that is code language for my limited cultural understand of reality, but simply because you do. And I can&#39;t possibly go back in time to see for myself. It would be a waste of time even if I could. </p>
<p>Yes we have different views on this subject. </p>
<p>You wrote</p>
<p>&quot;Additionally, you appear to already have preset conclusions when you write, &quot;I&#39;m convinced science will discover one day the means by which children can remember their past life details that, when investigated, have no practical explanations possible.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;Can we be wrong in such a conviction? Could it be the reverse--that reincarnation isn&#39;t the case and that such memories are merely admixtures from early childhood experiences that we have misidentified?&quot;</p>
<p>Yes it might be something other than reincarnation but no it can&#39;t be an admixture of early childhood experiences for many cases studies in detail. It might not be there past life. The accurate information they have related could have been transferred in any number of ways. But the fact is that the proven independence of dozens of these witnesses from any practical means of gaining their knowledge is scientifically, statistically significant. That&#39;s why I encourage you to look at the actual investigations and statistical control established in these small but significant cases by scientists at the University of Virginia who have studied thousands of such reports rigorously over decades. </p>
<p>I am sure that the actual mechanisms will come to light, since I believe in science and that would include all experiences. This is a physical world.</p>
<p>But I would not pretend to know. That&#39;s conjecture. </p>
<p>Why is your conjecture any different from that of a self - proclaimed psychic? They are both statements, conjectures that are themselves untested. </p>gerber commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ca872200c2019-05-11T03:46:22Z2019-05-11T03:46:22ZgerberHow do we know what can and cannot be tested? Is the idea that things cannot be tested just another...<p>How do we know what can and cannot be tested? Is the idea that things cannot be tested just another form of belief which has little value&gt;?</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ca69b200c2019-05-11T03:08:24Z2019-05-11T03:08:24ZSpence TepperHi Gerber Testing, truly fair and controlled testing is crucial. That's why conjecture about things that cannot be tested is...<p>Hi Gerber<br />
Testing, truly fair and controlled testing is crucial. <br />
That&#39;s why conjecture about things that cannot be tested is just another form of belief and of little value. </p>Sonya commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ca610200c2019-05-11T02:50:58Z2019-05-11T02:50:58ZSonyaI love unicorns 🦄 That’s how I feel right now. Sometimes all this intense cerebral debate makes me see stars....<p>I love unicorns 🦄 </p>
<p>That’s how I feel right now. Sometimes all this intense cerebral debate makes me see stars. Sometimes you just want to forget all about this serious stuff and let your mind chill... go to the spa, sit in a hammock... maybe a sensory deprivation experience would put this in better perspective. Or not. Maybe we need to relax more... maybe life is meant to be LESS examined. Just a thought.</p>gerber commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485d4da200d2019-05-11T01:55:43Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZgerberAh, but the key in science is to then test our imaginations in the world around us to see how...<p>Ah, but the key in science is to then test our imaginations in the world around us to see how well they hold up to rational scrutiny and test.</p>
<p>Imagination is great, no doubt. But it doesn&#39;t become scientific until we tested it.</p>
<p>Einstein&#39;s theory of relativity needed to be tested.</p>
<p>Otherwise, we stay in the imaginary realm.</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa71ae200b2019-05-11T01:53:04Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZDavid LaneDear Spence, Yes, my surfing experience was indeed real at the time. But quite frankly, I wouldn't be upset if...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>Yes, my surfing experience was indeed real at the time. But quite frankly, I wouldn&#39;t be upset if someone said it was my imagination. Why? Because my other surf friends would definitely rib me about it, saying something like, &quot;Sure, bro, six seconds? More like a two second champagne rinse.&quot;</p>
<p>Surfers can be harsh about such stories..... </p>
<p>So, I recently wrote in the book, Charan: A Remembrance (part one), that long before I was initiated I had a tremendous meditation experience which convinced me that Charan should initiate me right away. Keep in mind I was 17 and one very anxious kid.</p>
<p>Thus, I write Charan a long letter about it. Now, he wrote me back and basically told me about how the mind can produce all sorts of things and that they may not be reliable and that it could be illusory and so on. He also said I should be more skeptical and more critical about such subjective happenings.</p>
<p>It was altogether wise advice, even if the experience I had was still a very cool one.</p>
<p>Therefore, I don&#39;t see a problem with someone questioning our subjective experiences and how we interpret them.</p>
<p>I once had an older male student who was diagnosed as schizophrenic and basically never left his house for twenty years because he could see and hear all sorts of nasty things coming out of the television set and from his rug, and so on.</p>
<p>He envisioned them as real as you and I standing next to him. It froze him, almost quite literally, into staying home all the time.</p>
<p>Well, as he ventured out he took a class with me. But he couldn&#39;t look anyone in the eye..... One day when we talked about how consciousness evolved as a virtual simulator and why such simulations gave us an evolutionary advantage over other species, even if some of those simulations were completely imaginary.</p>
<p>It struck him like a bolt of lightening. He then proceeded to &quot;doubt&quot; his visions and &quot;doubt&quot; the interpretations of such a real. It liberated him.</p>
<p>Therefore, while it is phenomenologically true that our subjective experiences seem indeed real when they are happening, it doesn&#39;t mean that our interpretations of the same are true or that we have to hold fast to them.</p>
<p>We could simply be mistaken about how we interpret them, and given better models may be liberated from their binding effects.</p>
<p>In any case, we can take a two prong approach: describe our inner experiences phenomenologically (to get full flavor of what it was like) and still be open for alternative explanations or interpretations of what then just transpired.</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485d449200d2019-05-11T01:36:23Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZDavid LaneDear Spence, Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. 1. The reason I brought up the recent discovery of gravitational...<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. </p>
<p>1. The reason I brought up the recent discovery of gravitational waves was to point out that sometimes it takes time for things to be tested and confirmed, as in this case it took 100 years.</p>
<p>Cal Tech defines these gravitational waves as this: &quot;Gravitational waves are &#39;ripples&#39; in space-time caused by some of the most violent and energetic processes in the Universe. Albert Einstein predicted the existence of gravitational waves in 1916 in his general theory of relativity. Einstein&#39;s mathematics showed that massive accelerating objects (such as neutron stars or black holes orbiting each other) would disrupt space-time in such a way that &#39;waves&#39; of distorted space would radiate from the source (like the movement of waves away from a stone thrown into a pond). Furthermore, these ripples would travel at the speed of light through the Universe, carrying with them information about their cataclysmic origins, as well as clues to the nature of gravity itself.&quot;</p>
<p>I wasn&#39;t arguing about the ultimate nature of gravity as such, but only how the process of science works and why what may seem to be too subtle for science (see the above definition) at one time (1916) becomes accessible, given technological advances nearly a 100 years later (2015).</p>
<p>Likewise, what may appear to have no physical referent at first may over time and with the advancement of technology and science provide us with tools to see their physical interactions.</p>
<p>2. Keeping an open mind is indeed a key feature of science, but you seem to have jumped to conclusions that seem unwarranted when you write, &quot;But to conclude these mysteries are fake or entirely illusory when science has already demonstrated that some are indeed accurate, is premature, and unscientific.&quot;</p>
<p>I am not quite sure which mysteries you are talking about here or which are entirely illusory. One would have to be laser specific and then examine each case on their own merits (or lack thereof).</p>
<p>Additionally, you appear to already have preset conclusions when you write, &quot;I&#39;m convinced science will discover one day the means by which children can remember their past life details that, when investigated, have no practical explanations possible.&quot;</p>
<p>Can we be wrong in such a conviction? Could it be the reverse--that reincarnation isn&#39;t the case and that such memories are merely admixtures from early childhood experiences that we have misidentified?</p>
<p>My point is that we have to be willing to be wrong about the very things we may hold so dear. <br />
As Richard Feynman said, &quot;The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.&quot;</p>
<p>So, in this context, what kinds of evidence would upturn our cherished beliefs and how willing are we to change our minds on the basis of such?</p>
<p>As for myself, I am not preset against the paranormal. To the contrary, I have a long history of investigating such things in my life. Even taught graduate courses on parapsychology back in the late 1980s/1990s.</p>
<p>However, I know from personal experience in this area how easy one can be deceived. I often give the example of Sathya Sai Baba, who many erstwhile very intelligent people (including those would call themelves scientists) believed that this South Indian Guru could produce things out of thin air.</p>
<p>I even corresponded with Jack Hilslop, then President of the Sai organization in North America, about such happenings.</p>
<p>However, when I delved deeply into this subject (as have others), I found that Sai was simply a very bad sleight of hand magician who faked the very miracles that others thought were real.</p>
<p>We even have extensive photographic evidence showing exactly how he did it, and sadly you and I could probably do better tricks.</p>
<p>But the environment was such that people didn&#39;t doubt it.</p>
<p>Now I am not saying that Sai represents the entire field of the paranormal, but only that being very skeptical is indeed the best way to first test whether something is faked or not.</p>
<p>The great thing about science is that it is always open to such inquiries and no model within science is held as an absolute dogma since that would contravene the very process of doing science. </p>
<p>Newton could be wrong, Einstein could be wrong, and Darwin could be wrong.</p>
<p>But to their great credit, they showed the pathway by which to DISPROVE their ideas.</p>
<p>To the degree that their theories withstand falsification we hold them tentatively as the best explanations we have so far..... always keeping in mind that someone or some idea may upturn what we hold to be relatively true.</p>
<p>That is how Einstein improved upon Newton and how Crick and Watson improved upon Pauli, and the list goes on.</p>
<p>But we must also be willing to chuck ideas that cannot withstand rational scrutiny if we wish to have a progressive science.</p>
<p>Again, the key is for us to take things case by case and see what holds up and what does not.</p>
<p>Here, btw, is the link to the Sai Baba controversy.....</p>
<p><a href="http://www.integralworld.net/lane62.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.integralworld.net/lane62.html</a><br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45ca0bf200c2019-05-11T01:26:45Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZSpence Tepper When Einstein, in his inner experience, his thought experiment, during his high school days, rode that beam of light, he...<p>When Einstein, in his inner experience, his thought experiment, during his high school days, rode that beam of light, he actually learned about the true, amazing and real aspects of light. He learned truth from his inner experience, which came from a different place, informed by truths he had not learned or understood despite his study, despite his intellect. And we have all benefited.</p>
<p>And this led him to proclaim... </p>
<p>IMAGINATION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN KNOWLEDGE &quot;<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485d267200d2019-05-11T01:13:52Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZSpence Tepper Hi David Your surfing experience was real. No one is telling you that you never rode that tube and it...<p>Hi David<br />
Your surfing experience was real. </p>
<p>No one is telling you that you never rode that tube and it was all in your imagination. </p>
<p>But even if that were true, it was real for you alone. The facts of the matter are merely tangential and outside your experience. A matter of pure conjecture, since you can only report what you experienced. </p>
<p>When you can regard everyone&#39;s testimony of their subjective experience as their subjective experience fully valid for them, even when it is entirely foreign to you, then you will have achieved the capacity to acknowledge in others the legitimate joy what you claim for yourself. </p>
<p>No one cares, truly, whether their inner Gurinder has any connection to the outer one. What they care about is the truthfulness, sincerity and compassion of their own inner Gurinder, who, if they are fortunate, is their constant companion. He is helping them see things objectively, mostly about themselves, and serves his purpose unerringly. </p>
<p><br />
</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485ccd6200d2019-05-10T23:14:20Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZDavid LaneHi Michael, I liked your post since I think there are two different things at issue here. One is the...<p>Hi Michael, </p>
<p>I liked your post since I think there are two different things at issue here. One is the experience we have of something (which can range from the ordinary to the superluminal) that we enjoy for its own sake. The other is how we go about explaining or making sense of what transpired.<br />
We have the option of making them mutually exclusive or correlating them.</p>
<p>Science is the pursuit of the latter.</p>
<p>My own feeling is that there is nothing wrong or even diminishing when trying to ground what we perceive as supernatural to the empirical arena.</p>
<p>Why? Because as Brian Hines has eloquently pointed out in numerous posts, this universe, this very atomic stuff is magical and mysterious and magnificent in itself. Nothing needs to be added to it since matter is already amazing in all it various forms.</p>
<p>So, for example, I had what I felt was a mystical experience surfing Zuma beach back in 1975... I took off on this 8 foot wave that looked to be a close out but instead I got a 6 second tube ride that seemed like it lasted minutes... Time slowed down and I felt frozen in an eternal moment....</p>
<p>Now when I look at this more objectively it was just me on fiberglass going through a tunnel of H2O...</p>
<p>But even though it was just physics that doesn’t take away from the joy of that moment.</p>
<p>So likewise I don’t think our mystical experiences are lessened if it turns out that they are just a product of my physical brain...</p>
<p>Physics IS mystical in the positive sense of the term and I think dualism is unnecessary when we realize that.</p>J commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485c887200d2019-05-10T22:02:20Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZJCorrection to last post: Faqir's statement that "miracles that no doubt do happen" is included, as it's item #4 on...<p>Correction to last post: Faqir&#39;s statement that &quot;miracles that no doubt do happen&quot; is included, as it&#39;s item #4 on that meta list. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c96ea200c2019-05-10T21:57:25Z2019-05-10T21:57:25ZSpence Tepper https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/ When evidence is presented we need to carefully and scientifically and with open mind, learn, listen, and then evaluate...<p><a href="https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/" rel="nofollow">https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/</a></p>
<p>When evidence is presented we need to carefully and scientifically and with open mind, learn, listen, and then evaluate it. </p>
<p>If someone doesn&#39;t do this, they aren&#39;t being scientific, regardless of how loudly they claim to be &#39;scientific&#39; . Just using &quot;science&quot; as a club to defeat one prejudice in favor of their own.</p>
<p>BTW Brian, I didn&#39;t refuse to read the articles on Baba Ji, though they said what I didn&#39;t want to believe. I went further and read the Luthra and Luthra audits, and did my homework. And amended my view. I let truth lead me through a dark passage. </p>
<p>It&#39;s now your turn, and David&#39;s, to step out of your comfort zone and be a scientist. Open mind first please. <br />
</p>J commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c96d4200c2019-05-10T21:53:56Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZJhttps://sites.google.com/site/faqirchandonmiracles/ This is purportedly a list of every recorded instance where Faqir Chand uses the word "miracle." Noticeably absent is...<p><a href="https://sites.google.com/site/faqirchandonmiracles/" rel="nofollow">https://sites.google.com/site/faqirchandonmiracles/</a></p>
<p>This is purportedly a list of every recorded instance where Faqir Chand uses the word &quot;miracle.&quot; Noticeably absent is the instance I found in my brief skim of Faqir&#39;s writings, where he says &quot;no doubt, miracles sometimes do happen.&quot; There&#39;s also Faqir saying that thoughts will kill off half the population of the planet, grumbling can (literally, not metaphorically) kill our children, and the thoughts of a pregnant white woman for a black man can alter the baby&#39;s DNA and racial characteristics.</p>
<p>It&#39;s admittedly tough to pin down just what Faqir actually believed on any topic, except one: Faqir was adamant that he did not have foreknowledge of the unusual experiences of his followers, or that his will instigated these experiences. As for miracles themselves, Faqir did not argue that there was a reasonable material explanation for the fantastic story of apparent divine intervention in the lives of his followers. Faqir put the actual cause of these experiences as being caused by faith in God, and thought that generated by cosmic rays. Faqir did not hold that miracles are the work of imagination. He absolutely believed that faith could produce miracles, that is, material alterations of nature.<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485c75c200d2019-05-10T21:33:37Z2019-05-11T02:13:13ZSpence Tepper Hi David If you take a closer look at your own reasoning above you may see the flaw I have...<p>Hi David<br />
If you take a closer look at your own reasoning above you may see the flaw I have attempted to point out, albeit in shorthand. </p>
<p>An open mind is essential, therefore any conclusions, either magical or practical, must be testable. </p>
<p>You claim people leap to the paranormal explanation, but many leap to the practical and without evidence. </p>
<p>Science, as you point out, demands an open and intestigative approach. </p>
<p>But the flaws in actual research often point to constricting the research to produce our pre-conceived explanation. </p>
<p>This is why your reference to gravity waves is uninformed. </p>
<p>Gravity waves aren&#39;t waves of gravity. </p>
<p>They are simply detectable effects on matter. </p>
<p>Light waves are detectable and linked to waves of photon particles, but not gravity. There are no gravity fields of detectable energy or particle waves. </p>
<p>Imagine a pond with leaves on the surface. </p>
<p>You throw a stone in the middle. The water moves and so do the leaves.</p>
<p>But we can&#39;t detect the water. Today we can only measure the movement of the leaves on the surface.</p>
<p>Same with gravity &quot;waves&quot;... We are still measuring the effects of gravity on matter here in earth, though with very huge and subtle (and not entirely reliable) detectors. We still cannot detect any particle or energy that connects any of the celestial bodies to each other.</p>
<p>As for paranormal, I&#39;m convinced science will discover one day the means by which children can remember their past life details that, when investigated, have no practical explanations possible. Or as faqir pointed out, how his thoughts could enter someone else&#39;s mind. </p>
<p>Even the inner regions will likely turn out to be part and parcel of the construction of the brain, influenced in ways we cannot currently detect. </p>
<p>But to conclude these mysteries are fake or entirely illusory when science has already demonstrated that some are indeed accurate, is premature, and unscientific. </p>
<p><a href="https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/" rel="nofollow">https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/</a><br />
</p>Mike England commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c8f4a200c2019-05-10T19:35:40Z2019-05-10T19:55:47ZMike England Dear David This is out of my usual and nonsensical comfort zone so this is rare riposte from me. I...<p>Dear David<br />
This is out of my usual and nonsensical comfort zone so this is rare riposte from me.<br />
I have taken some of your comments, in context, as below.<br />
“Science actually starts with ignorance. <br />
So, ironically, those most in favor of the paranormal should be at the forefront of exhausting each and every explanation that utilizes the normal. <br />
However, some things like &quot;gravitational waves&quot; were so subtle that it took a 100 years for us to find detect them.<br />
My point is a simple one. The more patient we are in science to look for physical causes first the better off we will be, since in that pursuit we won&#39;t be duped into magical and transcendental temptations too early.”</p>
<p>ME: For those of use who have experienced paranormal, supernatural and psychic phenomena the answer is already delivered. No further investigation needed. <br />
Scientific study will not be able to conclude that the psychic experience is or was genuine. <br />
As for waiting a Century, Gosh, I’d have to get up early for that one.<br />
</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa5a57200b2019-05-10T18:43:11Z2019-05-10T19:55:47ZDavid LaneSpence, The movie the "remainder conjecture" is to actually open up a blind spot, not hide one. For instance, if...<p><br />
Spence,</p>
<p>The movie the &quot;remainder conjecture&quot; is to actually open up a blind spot, not hide one. For instance,<br />
if we exhaust physical explanations first (for instance, trying to understand the neural correlate theory of consciousness) and we find after intensive and comprehensive research that it is insufficient to the task, then it opens up a window, what I call a &quot;remainder&quot;, which gives us suggestive indications that something ELSE is needed beyond the physical parameters we explored. So, ironically, those most in favor of the paranormal should be at the forefront of exhausting each and every explanation that utilizes the normal.</p>
<p>This in itself doesn&#39;t discount the supernatural in the least, but means that we won&#39;t be duped into confusing a purely physical event for a psychic one, which has too often happened in the past.</p>
<p>Science actually starts with ignorance since it doesn&#39;t assume (theologically or prematurely) to have any absolute answers and thus from this state then proposes guesses and models and then tests those to see which one best fits the situation and which one provides the greatest predictive value.</p>
<p>Therefore, science is always doubting, always questioning, and in so doing has been wonderfully progressive in terms of understanding that which before was misunderstood.</p>
<p>Also, what used to be seen as magical or mysterious or produced by a god, has often turned out to be generated by physical means. The sun and nuclear fusion (see Hans Bethe for more) is a good illustration of this.</p>
<p>Same with the idea of gravity. Einstein&#39;s general theory of relativity made predictions that could be tested.</p>
<p>However, some things like &quot;gravitational waves&quot; were so subtle that it took a 100 years for us to find detect them, which was a great breakthrough that just came to light.</p>
<p>The same, of course, with the subatomic physics when physicists knew that there was a missing piece in the Standard Model..... In the early 1960s they theorized a missing Boson, later found and called (after one of its more well known theorizers) the &quot;Higgs Boson.&quot; The Nobel prize in physics was awarded for this breakthrough, though it took decades for the proof needed to verify it.</p>
<p>My point is a simple one. The more patient we are in science to look for physical causes first the better off we will be, since in that pursuit we won&#39;t be duped into magical and transcendental temptations too early.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t think it is at all absurd to try to find an explanation for all that we can. Indeed, that is why science is science, since it doesn&#39;t simply quit but rather chugs onwards..... and in so doing the most remarkable things can happen.</p>
<p>Often people forget that in the early 20th century there were many that felt that the secret of genetics would never be found and instead opted for Elan Vital..... thankfully, biologists and chemists such as Linus Pauling, Rosalind Franklin, Francis Crick, Maurice Wilkings, and James Watson were not deterred in looking for physical causations..... Indeed, they were influenced by Erwin Schrodinger&#39;s book, WHAT IS LIFE, which argued for looking for a physical medium by which information (genetic and otherwise) could be universally transmitted.</p>
<p>And, lo and behold, the double helix structure of DNA was discovered in 1953..... and it has radically<br />
changed our understanding of how life works.....</p>
<p>So, again, let us pursue the Wilsonian idea of Consilient reductionism first..... and if that exhausts itself and there remains a &quot;remainder&quot;..... then we have something to build upon.</p>
<p>Or as Blaise Pascal said (or was attributed in saying), which I think goes to the heart of how science proceeds:</p>
<p>little faith, little doubt<br />
great faith, great doubt</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>infinite faith, infinite doubt.</p>Meditator commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c8664200c2019-05-10T17:29:50Z2019-05-10T17:29:50ZMeditatorMr Jesse. It was related to me by my patents many a times. As it was the only day after...<p>Mr Jesse.<br />
It was related to me by my patents many a times. As it was the only day after that fateful night of celebration He remembers it very much. Because it is the only night perhaps which has been with extraordinary dream - to have brought out a pleasing relief for their son who was stiffly gripped by polio and paralysed. </p>
<p>As far as the shaven or bearded or adolescent or child or with a particular hairstyle etc issue, a Sardar as said appeared mean a Sardar appeared. I never said it was Baba Ji or Hujur Charan Singh Ji Maharaj. However He was initiated by Charan Singh. I take due diligence in expressing exactly lest it does not lead to unnecessary speculation or interpretation - try to be truthful to the best possible extent. </p>
<p>I guess that it is that image of Gurus, mostly bearded while on throne of Guruship which might be seen in dreams or inner side. And may not be the image before His Guruship while as a child or later until seated on the Gaddi. Regards.</p>Anon commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a485a945200d2019-05-10T14:37:46Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZAnonGravitational waves detected https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190509173343.htm<p>Gravitational waves detected</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190509173343.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190509173343.htm</a></p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c70a1200c2019-05-10T12:35:57Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZSpence TepperHi David You wrote "Of course, this doesn't preclude the paranormal, it is just that I think we should exhaust...<p>Hi David<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;Of course, this doesn&#39;t preclude the paranormal, it is just that I think we should exhaust physical explanations first.&quot;</p>
<p>I concur. But it is a shame when research that has established to a scientific and statistical significance that no rational physical explanation exists, still, a sceptics deny that. So one more acceptable illusion replaces another, that is all. </p>
<p>The blind spot here is using conjecture. </p>
<p>It&#39;s unnecessary to explain anything actually.</p>
<p>Whether that conjecture is magical or &quot;practical&quot;. </p>
<p>We still don&#39;t know what actually connects planets hundreds of thousands of miles apart. We understand how gravity works but have yet to find a particle or energy connection to explain it. </p>
<p>There is nothing detectable connecting bodies in space. </p>
<p>I point this out to demonstrate the absurdity in trying to find an explanation for everything. At some point it becomes just a label and not any real knowledge at all. Another imaginary model, with its own level of accuracy and inaccuracy.</p>
<p>I love science fiction author Harry Harrison&#39;s comment, &quot;Ignorance is the foundation of all conjecture.&quot;<br />
</p>Sonya commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c6440200c2019-05-10T08:29:17Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZSonya although, I can’t say I’ve ever caught Gurinder in a lie... he’s pretty careful about that<p>although, I can’t say I’ve ever caught Gurinder in a lie... he’s pretty careful about that</p>Sonya commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c6276200c2019-05-10T07:59:04Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZSonyaWow. This comment thread went in so many different directions so fast and furiously... I’m very grateful Brian posted another...<p>Wow. This comment thread went in so many different directions so fast and furiously... I’m very grateful Brian posted another article about Faqir. Faqir really gets people stirred up. That’s what happens when gurus start telling the truth. </p>J commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa28d6200b2019-05-10T05:37:38Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZJFrom Faqir Chand's book A Word to Americans http://manavtamandir.com/books/english/A-Word-To-Americans.pdf Q. Your Holiness has mentioned about the population being reduced to...<p>From Faqir Chand&#39;s book A Word to Americans <a href="http://manavtamandir.com/books/english/A-Word-To-Americans.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://manavtamandir.com/books/english/A-Word-To-Americans.pdf</a></p>
<p>Q. Your Holiness has mentioned about the population being<br />
reduced to half. We have been hearing this prophecy in America as well.<br />
Can you expand this?</p>
<p>Faqir Chand: You see; I am not God, nor am I an astrologer. I<br />
have studies the philosophy of mind, which is based on my personal<br />
experience. I have realized that if there is disharmony, hatred and ill will<br />
amongst the members of family is bound to suffer from destruction. I am<br />
not telling this theoretically, but it is based on my personal experience. I<br />
lost one of my sons. I had predicted his death two and half years earlier<br />
than it actually occurred, when I was getting a house built at Hoshiarpur.<br />
My son-in-law said to me, “Father, you should get the house so<br />
constructed that both of your sons can occupy a separate apartment.” I<br />
told him, “You should thank God if one of them survives.” I said this on<br />
the basis of facts in my family and on the same basis I say that the future<br />
suffering of humanity is inevitable. Let me elaborate it further. My<br />
younger brother Rai Sahib Surendra Nath was away in Mesopotamia.<br />
At that time I was drawing only Rs. 95/- a month as a Station Master. I<br />
had to feed his three children as well as my own family. It was very<br />
difficult for me to manage with the limited means. My wife used to<br />
grumble everyday. I mean to say that she had a bad temper and attitude<br />
of hatred and ill feelings. It was therefore natural for her to suffer from<br />
the consequences. It is the worst thing for a woman to trouble her<br />
husband or children. Hence I predicted the death of one of my sons.<br />
Because this prediction came true, I venture to say that the existence of<br />
hatred in all the countries is bound to bring the catestrophe. Humanity<br />
will suffer, because of its own thinking and feelings, which are at their<br />
worst during the political elections. All vibrations spread over the world.<br />
It takes time for these vibrations to fructify. You already have scientific<br />
attitude. Even Newton had stated that the motion of your hand initiated<br />
by you influences the stars. You can understand that our bad thoughts<br />
influence the events of the world.&quot;</p>
<p>J: Faqir is saying that the population of the world will be cut in half because of the &quot;bad thoughts&quot; of the citizenry. He also says that he blames his wife&#39;s grumbling for the death of one of his sons. </p>
<p>This Faqir Chand found in his books is different from the wonderful Faqir we meet in the Unknowing book. Another Chand story from Word to Americans:</p>
<p>&quot;A white couple was blessed with a son, who was exactly like a Negro. This<br />
happened in England. The husband doubted his wife and filed a case<br />
against her for her infidelity, by stating that the son was illegal. He<br />
categorically refused to accept that the boy was his real son. But the wife<br />
pleaded not guilty and affirmed that it was the real son of her husband.<br />
When the blood of the child was tested and matched with that of the father,<br />
wife&#39;s contention proved to be true. Later on it was discovered that there<br />
was the picture of a Negro hanging in the living room of the couple. The<br />
wife used to look at the picture during her pregnancy. The result was the<br />
formation of Negrite features of the would-be child in her womb. This is the<br />
clear proof of what I have been saying. Any other question?&quot;</p>
<p>Faqir Chand literature is chock full of such &quot;scientific&quot; observations. Perhaps this helps explain why I&#39;ve taken a dim view on Chand in this forum. I think much of his advice was nonsense. Still, there is a gem or two in this little book:</p>
<p>Chand: “Have firm faith in God; be true to yourself; think well of others; never try to harm<br />
others”. This is the way I pass my life and nature helps me---ALWAYS ALWAYS. If you surrender yourself to Him and resign yourself to Him, He looks after you. This is my firm conviction.&quot;</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c524d200c2019-05-10T02:45:36Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZDavid LaneHi Spence, First, When reading Faqir Chand and knowing him as I do, I think it is obvious that he...<p>Hi Spence,</p>
<p>First, When reading Faqir Chand and knowing him as I do, I think it is obvious that<br />
he believed our mind has the power to generate (he used the word, &quot;creatively&quot;) all<br />
sort of fantastic images. In Faqir&#39;s own life his mind produced Krishna, an aged sadhu, Shiv Brat Lal, and so much more.</p>
<p>Second, Faqir also held that such religious visions are ultimately illusory and argued that it was because of his own satsangis and disciples that he learned this great truth and thus was liberated from their binding effect. As Faqir himself explained, &#39;I receive numerous reports of this effect from the satsangis concerned, orally and by letters. In my heart of hearts I know for certain, that I do not know where and when these visions arise and help them miraculously; not do I produce them. Then, how does it happen? What is the explanation for this? I believe that the intensified faith of these devout persons becomes creative and produces these results. Many so-called gurus mis-appropriate the credit for similar happenings, which take place in their disciples, whose own true faith should be held responsible for those results.&quot;</p>
<p>Third, Faqir clearly had ideas about thought transmission and mentions it in several instances, including this one: &quot;I know that a man can convey his thoughts to others, if he so tries. Power of thought works wonders. I know so many instances of miracles done by this Power that a big volume could have been written about them. But I did not get involved in it because it is a game of Maya. Once man is involved in this Super-natural game, he is lost forever.&quot;</p>
<p>Faqir believed in this idea since he used to go into samadhi in front of his disciples and I think the hope was that they too would be influenced by such an action and therefore achieve a like minded state.</p>
<p>I witnessed Faqir several times go into samadhi myself.</p>
<p>I will tell you a funny story that I heard from Faqir&#39;s good friend and doctor who was with Faqir during the last weeks of his life.</p>
<p>The Dr. told me that occasionally would Faqir would go into samadhi, his state of absorption was such that nothing could bring him out of it. Apparently, I.C. Sharma, Faqir&#39;s main designated successor (who I have met on several occasions), would &quot;test&quot; Faqir&#39;s samadhi in front of others.... and since Faqir was of little stature would lift him and shake him around up and down..... and, yet, Faqir remained deeply absorbed in samadhi.</p>
<p>Pretty strange for Sharma to that, but if you knew Sharma he was a bit strange himself.</p>
<p>In any case (and this is me talking, not Faqir), I tend to think that what we take to be psychic or paranormal can often be explained more rationally given more time and more information.</p>
<p>Certainly, my T.A.&#39;s visionary experience of Charan dying at almost the exact moment that he did die seems paranormal on the surface. </p>
<p>But in an article for Integral World and for the first book I did on Charan (part of a proposed three part series), I attempt to explain ways and means that such an amazing experience could be understood<br />
without resorting to something trans-personal.</p>
<p>Of course, this doesn&#39;t preclude the paranormal, it is just that I think we should exhaust physical explanations first.</p>
<p>I have called this the Remainder Conjecture.</p>
<p>And it is a guiding light for how I look at these things.</p>
<p>Here is a little movie that underlines this way of thinking:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT0cL5g_1zE" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT0cL5g_1zE</a></p>
<p>Thanks.</p>Jesse commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa1e06200b2019-05-10T02:37:28Z2019-05-10T19:55:48ZJesseMaybe the entire memory is false, Meditator, and your parents' minds created it long after the fact. I have a...<p>Maybe the entire memory is false, Meditator, and your parents&#39; minds created it long after the fact. I have a memory of riding a snow sled off of a really tall cliff near my childhood home. If it had really happened, I&#39;d be dead, but I still remember it even though it never happened.</p>
<p>I also remember remembering and recounting this event many times throughout my life, though it could be the case that all that is bullshit too and I invented those memories.</p>
<p>Also, why do people supposedly see these Sikhs in turbans and long beards? Gurinder used to cut his beard. Jagat Singh was a &quot;mona&quot; Sikh with no beard or Turban and I think I read stories of him appearing as a turbaned Sikh to some. </p>
<p>Stop believing things. </p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory</a> </p>Tim Rimmer commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c51b0200c2019-05-10T02:21:59Z2019-05-10T02:21:59ZTim RimmerYou know I’m trying to work out weather all this debate in regard to mental projections/visions etc is helping me...<p>You know I’m trying to work out weather all this debate in regard to mental projections/visions etc is helping me or just pissing me off more in regard to Sant Mat teachings. I’m certainly less interested in stories about barrenless women issuing forth prasad powered progeny (no offence to the female bloggers) and more interested in what according to David Lane is the core of Fakir Chand’s experience and message:<br />
“Every two or three months or sometimes every three days, when I go and search for that entity that listens to the sound, then my being disappears.<br />
What remains? Nothing.”</p>
<p>My interpretation - his ultimate realisation is that in the process of ‘deep inquiry’ in deep meditation there’s a state of ‘no thing’. No vestige of a mind/personality/separate self. The experience is non-dual. Does this also mean that the only thing that truly is, is the Saar Shabad?<br />
Is this the nothing, the Absolute of which Nisargadatta speaks?</p>
<p>“I am a bubble of the supermost consciousness. In the process of evolution, I appeared or manifested. Similarly, you also appeared. I did not exist before, and I won’t exist again. Only one element will remain from which this bubble came into existence.<br />
That element is Sound”</p>
<p>Several interesting things here - <br />
‘A bubble of supermost consciousness’ - Is FC describing the soul? Something sort of separate but ultimately not for if it represents supermost consciousness it most be hooked into the totality of consciousness?<br />
‘In the process of evolution, I appeared or manifested …. I did not exist before, and I won’t exist again.’</p>
<p>I like that FC speaks of evolution which I believe is about the unfolding of consciousness. Consciousness manifests these little bubbles that think they are something for a wee spurt of time then pop back into no thing. Some bubbles evolve to understand the nature of consciousness. A few grok that at the base of all this is the sound of the universe? Uni… Verse = 1 song. This brings peace - gotta be good I’d be happy with this.<br />
All this is to my liking and very advaitic imo.<br />
So what did FC advocate as a means/method to get to ‘no-thing’? </p>
<p>On a slightly different note (excuse the pun), for all you progressive metalers, there’s an interesting you tube clip analysing Tool’s (one of my favourite bands) song Lateralus in terms of the fibonacci series. I used to cathartically dance to this song when it first came out - definitely need to stretch a bit these days if I did the same now. <a href="https://youtu.be/uOHkeH2VaE0." rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/uOHkeH2VaE0.</a></p>
<p>BFN<br />
</p>Meditator commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa1b64200b2019-05-10T01:57:48Z2019-05-10T01:57:48ZMeditatorWould like to submit how an incident that happened while was a kid,2-3 years old demands introspection to be a...<p>Would like to submit how an incident that happened while was a kid,2-3 years old demands introspection to be a real one or fake. My parents told me about it when I was grown up.</p>
<p>I got polio and was paralysed. Even I remember this much that I was pretty uncomfortable then. My parents got initiation much later, some 10 years later. </p>
<p>On some night a Sardar appears to my Dad in dream in the night and says that your child will be all right and disappears. He does not remember who that Sardar was, his exact features later after 10 years when He got initiated. </p>
<p>But I recovered almost fully after that night, as my parents told me. That dream got washed up later down the years and also the Sardar his image who prophesied. While during that period my Dad used to drink, eat non veg. , etc and was no way connected to the sect. </p>
<p>Perhaps they were to be initiated later that He may have appeared to soothe them as also me, my lowly self.</p>
<p>Never know if it fits into Fakir&#39;s Baba way of powers of mind. May be the mind has the powers to heal the other person through dreams! How?</p>
<p>Regards.<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c4cf3200c2019-05-10T01:05:00Z2019-05-10T01:05:00ZSpence Tepper Hi David My take on this, as you can see, is simply that 1.Faqir believed that our mind has power....<p>Hi David<br />
My take on this, as you can see, is simply that <br />
1.Faqir believed that our mind has power. <br />
2.The power to create illusion out of our own desire.<br />
3.the power to gain truth, even to read accurately, without our own conscious awareness, the thoughts of another through psychic means.</p>
<p>Would you agree that Faqir has, among his works, expressed these sentiments? </p>Jen from Austin Texas commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4857cc1200d2019-05-10T01:01:27Z2019-05-10T01:01:27ZJen from Austin Texas Hi Spence you wrote “I saw Gurinder in a dream when I was in high school. At that time I...<p>Hi Spence you wrote<br />
“I saw Gurinder in a dream when I was in high school. At that time I knew nothing of Sant Mat.” <br />
I’m just curious in what image did you see him? Child, adult, long beard short beard? </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c4994200c2019-05-10T00:07:49Z2019-05-10T00:07:49ZDavid LaneJesse, Faqir spoke English very well and even dictated many letters to me in English. He also spoke Urdu and...<p>Jesse,</p>
<p>Faqir spoke English very well and even dictated many letters to me in English. He also spoke Urdu and Hindi....</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa1501200b2019-05-10T00:03:40Z2019-05-10T00:03:40ZDavid LaneDear Spence, I stand by what I wrote in the context it was written and I never used 100 percent....<p>Dear Spence,</p>
<p>I stand by what I wrote in the context it was written and I never used 100 percent. That is you wording and you should edit your own exaggerations.</p>
<p>Of course, I could always use this quote by Faqir himself,</p>
<p> “ I am true to the core of my heart, and I do not believe in miracles. What I can do for you, at the most, is that I can give you my good wishes.”</p>
<p>But instead I thought it better to see the various uses Faqir uses when employing the term miracle.</p>
<p>In any case, I created a website that went through every book by Faqir which mentions the word miracle. Hope that is of some use, no matter how we parse it.</p>
<p>Reading Faqir is always a liberating experience for me.</p>
<p>Thanks for the discussion even we if may see things a bit differently.<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa1467200b2019-05-09T23:43:25Z2019-05-09T23:43:25ZSpence Tepper Hi David You wrote "Thus, these stories about Faqir are not miracles, though the disciples may believe such. They are...<p>Hi David<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;Thus, these stories about Faqir are not miracles, though the disciples may believe such.<br />
They are what the mind can produce under stressful circumstances.”</p>
<p>That&#39;s 100% non-paranormal.</p>
<p>But Faqir also acknowledged the Paranormal, as in the case of the woman who somehow came to learn that Faqir&#39;s wife died. Faqir had no knowledge of it at the time, but claimed this factual information probably came to her in a vision of Faqir, who then goes on to claim her thoughts came to his mind and his thoughts went into her mind.</p>
<p>Now, my point is that when you claim &#39;all these letters say its just projection, mental illusion /projection&#39; you mislead the reader.</p>
<p>I acknowledge that the evidence of this comes from the very documentation you yourself have provided. </p>
<p>Is it strange that a person provides the very basis to disprove their claim?</p>
<p>It&#39;s normal, Dude. That&#39;s why our best friends point out when our own shirt tail is hanging out the back. </p>
<p>Let me take this one step further.... </p>
<p>I&#39;m going to play editor and suggest a little re-write of your claim, something like this... </p>
<p>&#39;&#39; Thus, these particular stories I was given about Faqir are not miracles, though the disciples may believe such.<br />
They are what the mind can produce under stressful circumstances. And yet I also came to read other stories where Faqir detailed accounts of paranormal communication where thoughts went from one person to another. He did not discount the workings of the paranormal, but attributed this to the power of the mind, that one can indeed gain information, accurate information, through paranormal means, even if we ourselves do not understand how. &#39;</p>Jen from Austin Texas commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa1443200b2019-05-09T23:37:13Z2019-05-09T23:37:13ZJen from Austin Texas Jessie you wrote “You're ascribing powers to gurus and claiming that Chand did so as well by either not reading...<p>Jessie you wrote <br />
“You&#39;re ascribing powers to gurus and claiming that Chand did so as well by either not reading well or lying. Stop doing that or else show exactly where he said gurus themselves have power or ability to do anything at all.”</p>
<p>Faqir s one words <br />
&quot; To work as a guru is a very great responsibility. And I have told you that I did not go. Neither did I write her a letter. But in my heart I had this thought that my wife is dead, that woman meditated on me – her thought reached me from Iraq and my thought reached her, manifested as my form and told her that my wife had died. These are the experiences of my life.&quot;</p>
<p>If I did not understand his words(and I heard it in his own voice not translated) and you did then please correct me but it sure sounds to me like he said being a guru is no small thing as you have the ability to influence people’s thoughts. </p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a48576da200d2019-05-09T23:24:59Z2019-05-09T23:24:59ZSpence Tepper Hi Jesse You wrote "Are you sure you saw Gurinder and not just another sardar? Maybe you'd walked past a...<p>Hi Jesse<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;Are you sure you saw Gurinder and not just another sardar? Maybe you&#39;d walked past a hotel owned by some Sikhs and their image was forever burned into your mind. Happened to me as a kid. Then that image came into your dreams and only after rs literature did you think it was Gurinder.&quot;</p>
<p>Jesse, how would you know? </p>
<p>Let&#39;s just say it didn&#39;t fit your world view, therefore it couldn&#39;t have happened. </p>
<p>In my dream I was floating above the earth, and Gurinder approached me coming up from earth, placed his hand on my shoulder as he passed and wished me well, calling me brother. </p>
<p>This is not a dream one forgets easily. </p>
<p>I&#39;m from Southern California originally, a fairly cosmopolitan place. </p>
<p>But my experience can only be a matter of conjecture to you. </p>
<p>&quot;ignorance is the foundation of all conjecture.&quot;<br />
from &#39;The Stainless Steel Rat Saves The World&#39; by Harry Harrison<br />
</p>Spence Tepper commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c46ab200c2019-05-09T23:13:08Z2019-05-09T23:13:08ZSpence Tepper Hi Jen You wrote "Spence says he was initiated by Charan and yet didnt know anything at all about Sant...<p>Hi Jen<br />
You wrote<br />
&quot;Spence says he was initiated by Charan and yet didnt know anything at all about Sant Mat before Gurinder<br />
so many lies&quot;</p>
<p>Jen, what is your problem?</p>
<p>I saw Gurinder in a dream when I was in high school. At that time I knew nothing of Sant Mat. This was 1974.</p>
<p>Then in college I learned about the Path and was initiated by Dr DeVries in Pasadena in 1980, the year Mt. St. Helen&#39;s first erupted. Charan Singh is my Master. </p>
<p>I knew nothing about Gurinder until Maharaji&#39;s passing. And only in Kitchener Ontario in, I believe, 1992, did I see Gurinder. And I recognized him immediately. </p>
<p>Really, Jen, why not ask for clarification before making false accusations? </p>
<p>It&#39;s beneath you. </p>Jen commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4857272200d2019-05-09T22:13:42Z2019-05-09T22:13:42ZJenFrom - Rabbi Goldstein is wrong. A moment of silence in schools is useless. Sonya says Spence, Just curious, were...<p>From - Rabbi Goldstein is wrong. A moment of silence in schools is useless.<br />
Sonya says<br />
Spence,<br />
Just curious, were you an initiate of Gurinder or Charan?<br />
Posted by: Sonya Bellarozzi T | April 29, 2019 at 08:11 PM</p>
<p>From Spence -<br />
Hi Sonya<br />
Charan Singh<br />
Posted by: Spence Tepper | April 30, 2019 at 03:35 PM</p>
<p>here - <br />
Hi Jesse You wrote &quot;Spence do you think you&#39;d see &quot;the radiant form&quot; if you hadn&#39;t subscribed to the radha swami religion? &quot;<br />
Since I saw Gurinder within many years before I actually saw him, before I knew anything at all about Sant Mat, something else factual must have informed my mind first.<br />
That&#39;s where what you suggest doesn&#39;t match my experience.<br />
Posted by: Spence Tepper | May 08, 2019 at 11:28 PM</p>
<p>Spence says he was initiated by Charan and yet didnt know anything at all about Sant Mat before Gurinder<br />
so many lies<br />
</p>Jesse commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c414f200c2019-05-09T21:36:25Z2019-05-09T21:36:25ZJesseDavid, Did Chand speak English or were his English writings also translated from Hindi? And if they're all coming from...<p>David, Did Chand speak English or were his English writings also translated from Hindi? And if they&#39;re all coming from Hindi, which words are being translated as &quot;miracle&quot; ?</p>Marko commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c4061200c2019-05-09T21:30:44Z2019-05-09T21:30:44ZMarkoArjuna you are cool man.peace<p>Arjuna you are cool man.peace</p>Georgy Porgy commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa0b4f200b2019-05-09T21:25:24Z2019-05-09T21:25:24ZGeorgy Porgy Or are you simply misinterpreting what the gurus are and have been saying? Are you too literal or are you...<p>Or are you simply misinterpreting what the gurus are and have been saying? Are you too literal or are you taking things out of context to suit your own worldview.</p>
<p>Are the mystics right when they say that most misinterpret the teachings of the bible etc? That these books are at best a poor metaphor for trying to describe experiences which are impossible to reduce to words. </p>
<p>Who said the guru needs to be Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence? These are Christian notions of what a god is. </p>Sonya commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa0a29200b2019-05-09T21:04:51Z2019-05-09T21:04:51ZSonya"But after this was achieved, Faqir would then stress realizing that the whole game was a projection of one's own...<p>&quot;But after this was achieved, Faqir would then stress realizing that the whole game was a projection of one&#39;s own mind and that we should let it go.&quot;</p>
<p>EVERYTHING IS A PROJECTION OF THE MIND. So, it seems...</p>
<p>But, I guess what I&#39;m trying to say here is, that with the power of the mind it&#39;s sort of a chicken/egg thing. For example, you don&#39;t have heart disease but stressing out about things too much over time can create symptoms of heart disease, even damaging your heart--sometimes people actually have heart attacks simply because they allowed themselves to get so stressed out. We know that perpetual negative thoughts cause physical stress and release potentially damaging chemicals and hormones like too much cortisol. Over a long period of time, these negative thoughts can cause damage to your body.</p>
<p>So, in a way that is a power that might seem &quot;magical&quot; (it&#39;s always &quot;magical&quot; when it&#39;s negative and &quot;miraculous&quot; when it&#39;s positive LOL)--a power that our thoughts can have over us to the point of affecting the physical bodies we live in... perhaps even more. Who knows. If you&#39;re more of a Newtonian type, you&#39;ll say it ends there--if you&#39;re more quantumly inclined, you&#39;ll say the possibilities are limitless. </p>
<p>All that really matters, though, is are you able to control your own thoughts??</p>
<p>ANYONE can have &quot;control&quot; over you, or a ridiculously strong influence over you if you continue to believe what they say--not just a guru that you &quot;worship&quot;. But, this is because you&#39;ve allowed your mind to believe they have control. It&#39;s all in the mind but the mind is very powerful. And when I say &quot;mind&quot;, we can dumb that down to thoughts or thought systems or beliefs.</p>Georgy Porgy commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa0a08200b2019-05-09T21:00:05Z2019-05-09T21:00:05ZGeorgy PorgyStrange. It seems some gurus get the stamp of approval while others don’t. Stranger, I never heard of any atheist...<p>Strange. It seems some gurus get the stamp of approval while others don’t. </p>
<p>Stranger, I never heard of any atheist approval of any guru. </p>
<p>Very wierd realm this blog is in - must be the twilight zone. Don’t know it’s ass from its elbow. </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c3edb200c2019-05-09T20:53:32Z2019-05-09T20:53:32ZDavid LaneHere is the website which contains the meta-search we did for the word "miracle" in the corpus of Faqir Chand's...<p>Here is the website which contains the meta-search we did for the word &quot;miracle&quot; in the corpus of Faqir Chand&#39;s numerous English writings.</p>
<p>Hopefully, this will serve as an appetizer for those interested to read the larger context in which each is written.</p>
<p><a href="https://sites.google.com/site/faqirchandonmiracles/" rel="nofollow">https://sites.google.com/site/faqirchandonmiracles/</a></p>Sonya commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4856bd3200d2019-05-09T20:42:48Z2019-05-09T20:42:48ZSonyaG, It's a really interesting concept. Whether you're religious or not... In the military, people called my husband the magic...<p>G,</p>
<p>It&#39;s a really interesting concept. Whether you&#39;re religious or not...</p>
<p>In the military, people called my husband the magic man because he could always sense certain things and know when they were about to walk into a dangerous situation. He was in Africa and the Africans were very superstitious. But he said it was just simply heightened senses--something that happens when you&#39;re put in a life or death situation.</p>
<p>Another really interesting thing that happened, was a local witch doctor got to know my husband and liked him a lot so he gave my husband what was deemed to be a very powerful walking stick. Anyway, all of the men in his platoon were Africans and one day one of the guys was giving him shit so he point the stick at him (as a joke) and the guy fell down and was unconscious for a few days. However, even my husband agrees that there was nothing magical about the stick that the witch doctor gave him other than the BELIEF the local tribes had that it had &quot;real magic&quot;.</p>
<p>The stick didn&#39;t cause the man to fall down and lie there unconscious for a few days--the belief in it did. </p>
<p>And once again you have the power of the mind... of course as scientists we can look at the outcome in reverse and say that it was just simply the man&#39;s belief--there is nothing in nature other than the man&#39;s belief that caused it. But, then it just goes to show how powerful the mind really is.</p>
<p>Yes, the law of attraction... I read Faqir Chand&#39;s writings and pdfs here. Interesting, sort of. It&#39;s nothing terribly new, though. A lot of other &quot;gurus&quot; have said similar things, especially in our modern age.</p>Arjuna commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4856ba4200d2019-05-09T20:41:27Z2019-05-09T20:41:27ZArjuna@ David Hello again. Thank you. He has only spoken to me once and said “be a good man”. I...<p>@ David </p>
<p>Hello again. Thank you. He has only spoken to me once and said “be a good man”.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I always try to be - no matter what. Your book has arrived and I will read it over the weekend </p>
<p>All the best </p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa06aa200b2019-05-09T20:11:37Z2019-05-09T20:41:32ZDavid LaneDear Arjuna, No I didn't request an interview with Gurinder. I did have an interview with him many years ago...<p>Dear Arjuna,</p>
<p>No I didn&#39;t request an interview with Gurinder. I did have an interview with him many years ago in 1994 in Austin, Texas, but that was my only direct personal interaction with him.</p>David Lane commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4856a42200d2019-05-09T20:10:11Z2019-05-09T20:41:32ZDavid LaneHi Joseph, Always good to hear from you. BTW, I don't know if you got a chance to read it,...<p>Hi Joseph,</p>
<p>Always good to hear from you. BTW, I don&#39;t know if you got a chance to read it, but the relatives of Julian Johnson contacted me and they have a treasure trove of material about him that is quite interesting. We even made a website documenting some of it.</p>
<p>As for the notion of &quot;miracles do happen,&quot; I thought it would be best to do a meta-search of the word &quot;miracle&quot; in all of the available Faqir Chand literature. No doubt, his views on this specific issue are mixed, since at one end Faqir can say the following statements throughout his books:</p>
<p>&quot;I am true to the core of my heart, and I do not believe in miracles.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;Baba Sawan Singh Ji used to say that a Saint&#39;s brain adopts the shape of a four sided mirror and it reflects all future events. He become capable of reflecting the deepest roots of objects and even the Inner feelings of a man. It is not a miracle, but a natural process. If something good happens with my blessings, I am not ready to take any credit for that because that is all pre-planned and pre-destined, it is not due to my blessings.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;I cannot perform any miracle. Whatever I understand and experience I speak out to the world, though many people dislike my plain speaking.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;Often, I think, what can I do for the mankind and my country? I cannot change the situation through a miracle.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;Well, brother, you have come. I want to be true to you. I do no miracles. &quot;</p>
<p>&quot;About me, there are so many miracles attributed to me that if I write about all, there would be a big book. But I say upon my honor, that I do none of these miracles. It is either fate or the faith of the person concerned.&quot;</p>
<p>______</p>
<p>And then Faqir can also say something like this,</p>
<p>&quot;I know that a man can convey his thoughts to others, if he so tries. Power of thought works wonders. I know so many instances of miracles done by this Power that a big volume could have been written about them. But I did not get involved in it because it is a game of Maya. Once man is involved in this Super-natural game, he is lost forever. I tell you another instance of transmission of Thought Power. I did not pay any attention to supernatural powers, miracles or extraordinary events or incidents. But when I occupied the seat of preceptor, I then found that the Sat Sangies in general are more interested in supernatural powers and miracles. So, according to the needs of the time or on the basis of my own experiences, I too made certain number of men the focus of my sympathy and good wishes. And the result was that the sick regained health and the issueless were blessed with children. This experience of mine proved that the power of thought is a great force but it works upon only such people who have an extreme and true desire for getting particular things and not upon others. The power of thought proved ineffective upon many other people.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;I declare from the tree-tops and tower-tops that I do not go any where to manifest myself before anybody, I do not perform any miracles nor do I possess any such power. Whatever you have got, whatever you get, and whatever you will get, is the result and outcome of your own Karm, your own faith and your own belief. Who am I to give you anything ? </p>
<p>______</p>
<p>I counted roughly 30 or so direct uses of the word &quot;miracle&quot; in the totality of Faqir Chand&#39;s many books. Each have a context and each have a nuance.</p>
<p>Essentially, Faqir believes that the real miracle is the power of thought, the power of faith, and the power of concentration/belief.</p>
<p>But in any case, I think it is best for those interested in this subject to read Faqir directly on this interesting issue.</p>
<p>So I have created a website with every use of the word miracle in all of Faqir Chand&#39;s available literature.</p>
<p>That way, each person can make their own interpretation.</p>
<p>Will post that meta study later this afternoon.</p>
<p><br />
</p>G commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c383b200c2019-05-09T19:16:59Z2019-05-09T20:03:21ZGBut if you believe that the mind has the ability to project and even make things seem to happen on...<p>But if you believe that the mind has the ability to project and even make things seem to happen on pure thought/belief alone, isn’t that in itself a power? Like people who walk on hot coals and feel no pain.</p>
<p>It&#39;s like the law of attraction, if you believe something will happen it will, &#39;it is done on to you as you believe&#39;.<br />
Faqir Chand wrote about this in his books and talked about it in his satsangs.</p>Arjuna commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c3769200c2019-05-09T19:07:19Z2019-05-09T20:03:21ZArjuna @ David - hello Thank you for responding. I am glad you had a wonder stay. I went in 1991...<p>@ David - hello</p>
<p>Thank you for responding. I am glad you had a wonder stay. I went in 1991 when I was early teenager. I felt that I had been there before. That feeling haunts me. When I was about 6 I used to have dreams of the Satsang ghar being built even though I had no knowledge of RSSB. I know that’s going to sound messed up to some on here.</p>
<p>Did you get a chance to speak to Master during your visit?</p>
<p>Kind Regards</p>
<p>Arjuna </p>Mike England commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4aa00a7200b2019-05-09T19:00:49Z2019-05-09T20:03:21ZMike England An authentic explanation becomes more difficult to believe. Mystically it’s not complicated by incoherence. Time will clarify the diverse and...<p>An authentic explanation becomes more difficult to believe. Mystically it’s not complicated by incoherence. Time will clarify the diverse and differing opinions, regarding factual or otherwise, teachings and rare mumblings. <br />
Visions are sui generis on closer inspection. Suggested by his own Vision. The admixture of early and earlier memories are sometimes forgotten, sparking incidents when speaking on memories not incidents.</p>
<p>Gurus have the Ability to have a Guru. </p>joseph oleary commented on 'Faqir Chand believed in removing people from church'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a45c3604200c2019-05-09T18:57:34Z2019-05-09T20:03:21Zjoseph olearyDL: “I also got a chance to go through much of Faqir's correspondence which he shared with me back in...<p>DL: “I also got a chance to go through much of Faqir&#39;s correspondence which he shared with me back in 1978 where there were many letters about him appearing to so and so and how it was amazing.... Faqir would at each turn tell me that he knew nothing about it.<br />
Thus, these stories about Faqir are not miracles, though the disciples may believe such.<br />
They are what the mind can produce under stressful circumstances.”</p>
<p>The stories in reference here are to the letters Faqir shared to me at that time (1978) and thus dovetail with what Faqir himself said about it.&quot;</p>
<p>Perhaps Spence&#39;s point (and mine as well) is that Faqir saying &quot;he knew nothing about it&quot; (devotee testimony of Faqir&#39;s apparent divine intercession) is not Faqir saying &quot;these are not miracles, though the disciiple may believe such.&quot; Those are two different things, and we have Faqir on record for saying that &quot;no doubt, miracles sometimes do happen.&quot;</p>