The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burr W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up under an Executive order issued by President Johnson and congressional resolution passed by Congress. Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain Arnett, I want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of our inquiry here. We are concerned with the assassination of President Kennedy and the final death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been empowered and requested by the President to investigate all the facts and evaluate and then report this back to the President. We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee Oswald. However, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful to us, why, of course, we want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask you a few general things which might have some bearing upon the death of the President that would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody that might have information, and then we will get into the other problems. Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. Actually, under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a written letter from the Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. Before I swear you in, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the notice provision ?
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, sure. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see that you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one. Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me about the thing before I swear you Mr. ARNETT. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name? Mr. ARNETT. Charles Oliver Arnett. Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett? Mr. ARNETT September 6, 1911. Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now? Mr. ARNETT. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex. Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is that right? Mr. ARNETT. No. I am a captain on the reserve. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the reserve and the police department? Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any pay from the Dallas Police Department at all. Mr. GRIFFIN. Who does pay you? Mr. . ARNETT. Nobody. Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; I drive a truck.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And for whom do you work? Mr. ARNETT. Certain-Teed Products Co. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with them? Mr. ARNETT. Fourteen years. Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve ? Mr. ARNETT. A little over 10 years. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you had any special training in connection with your duties in the police reserve? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; went through school. Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us a little bit about that school? Mr. ARNETT. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, I believe it takes 7 1/2 months, if I remember right, to complete the course. Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was this that you went through the school? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now. Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went every Friday night? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many hours a night? Mr. ARNETT. Two hours. Mr. GRIFFIN. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve? Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently would you be called to duty ? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a month, I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could come more times than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made lieutenant, which put me over more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 years ago, I was made captain, and I have, I believe 80 some odd men under my company B. I am captain over company B. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department? Mr. ARNETT. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on and special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. State Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night during the Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I believe say 30 some odd--27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to that. Just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads or whatever Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads? Mr. ARNETT. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks? Mr. ARNETT. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the time they usually come down once a week. Mr. GRIFFIN. And for how long do they ride? Mr. ARNETT. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7:30 at night until 10:30, 11 o'clock. Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual case. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride? Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they receive any pay for that? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other training programs that these men undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program ? Mr. ARNETT. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would say for four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for training out there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else you can think of ? Mr. ARNETT. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and then we will talk about these [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. All right. Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had with two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey and Mr. Kenneth P. Hughes

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Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next document that I am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a letter that you prepared--signed, rather, dated November 27, 1963, and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the events that you observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. 0. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand these two exhibits to you, Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have examined those. Have you had a chance to read them ? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we can't do that. Mr. ARNETT. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's office--" [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. You stated that you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's office. Go ahead. Mr. ARNETT. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' office. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Mr. ARNETT. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to indicate what's correct, and then initial Mr. ARNETT. Just scratch out this? Mr. GRIFFIN. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain Fritz, if that's correct. Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell Fritz? Mr. GRIFFIN. [ Spelling] F-r-i-t-z. Mr. ARNETT. [ Spelling] F-r-i-t-z ? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s. Mr. ARNETT. All right. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of those changes and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other corrections that you think ought to be made there ? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any right now. Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the President's parade ? Mr. ARNETT. Was I at the parade? Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection with President Kennedy's arrival? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what those duties were? Mr. ARNETT. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, on Main Street. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you first told that you would have some responsibility in connection with the procession of the President through Dallas? Mr. ARNETT. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that for sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day before. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for supervising? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men did you supervise on that particular day? Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the detail. We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations up and down where the parade would be. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in connection with the parade?

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Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we assigned the men out. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you remember? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect to the parade? Mr. ARNETT. Other than just work in the parade is all. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to? Mr. ARNETT. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and it seems to me like it was Lieutenant--I can't recall his name right now. Maybe I will think of it directly. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the reserve officers in the assembly room? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions at that time? Mr. ARNETT. At that time they were each one assigned their location to work. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Mr. ARNETT. And not to--if they was booing the President or not--you know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if you saw anybody that was--acted as though they was going to bodily harm--you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, regular officers, you know, of what was going on. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall who gave you--say this was the lieutenant that gave these instructions? Mr. ARNETT. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you are talking about? Mr. ARNETT. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear to that, but it's---- Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard? Mr. ARNETT. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like I know Captain Solomon was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him that gave us instructions. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed to watch any other places besides the crowd ? Mr. ARNETT. You mean any particular buildings? Mr. GRIFFIN. Or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see--keep the crowd back out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there against the President's car. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you served in connection with other parades? Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other Presidential or political parades like this? Mr. ARNETT. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A Secret Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told him, and he said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his name and address and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of boots he can later." That's all. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would normally be given at any other parade that you worked in? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't think so.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you into the assembly room or Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what to watch out for? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the reserve officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository? Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall any. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been made aware of that? Mr. ARNETT. I had a list of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were assigned ? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that list ? Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon does. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man was to stand, was to be placed? Mr. ARNETT. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they would be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so; Main the same way. Mr. GRIFFIN. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and Harwood? Mr. ARNETT. I was working at large. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it show Burt W. Griffin, corner of Main and Harwood? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did you do when you heard that the President had been shot? Mr. ARNETT. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that afternoon, and the President's parade was later than it had been predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the President's arrival at the between Harwood and Pacific on Main, a young lady in her twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and said, "There is some kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said, "Well, I rather not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back to the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." But some little girls there with us told us where they were, about where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about the gun and stuff. They said the boy with the gun had walked off, but one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and I taken him, and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department up on the third floor. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a real knife that the kid had? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they shoot---oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. When the parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group come up to me and asked me when his buddy would .be turned loose. I said, "I don't know, son, but I will go up there with you to try to find out where he is." So we went up there on the third floor of the juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed in and said, "The President has been shot." Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile department; do you recall any of the officers that were there? Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe Captain Martin--now, I could be wrong on the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, the captain that they--that had the kid that we had carried up there. So I came back downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, driver's license men- Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names of

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people who were in that department, Juvenile department, and see if you recognize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery there? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been. Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Goolsby there? Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Detective Miller there? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling you the truth. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller? Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I do know the officer. Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison? Mr. ARNETT. Blackie Harrison? Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie Harrison? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there at the time? Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him being there at the time. Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile bureau? Mr. ARNETT. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his buddy? Mr. ARNETT. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three or four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The President has been shot." ,And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera was he shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on and got in my car. By that time squads were going everywhere. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this your private car? Mr. ARNETT. Yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, which way did you drive? Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down Young Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything going Mr. GRIFFIN. Young Street in what direction? Mr. ARNETT. West. Mr. GRIFFIN. Headed west? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place? Mr. ARNETT. Jackson runs along beside it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus station? Mr. ARNETT. Did I go by it? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I would have been one block south of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you. estimate that it was that you went over the Houston Street viaduct? Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at 2 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Zangs? Mr. ARNETT. I went Zangs to Jefferson. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any point in your trip out there? Mr. ARNETT. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any importance to the Commission? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the funeral, or wherever you had to go? Mr. ARNETT. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, "I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway 114 well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of the police officer. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening on a police radio? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be heard on ordinary radio receivers? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of special adaption do you have to have on your receiver to pick this up? Mr. ARNETT. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM frequency, do you know? Mr. ARNETT. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but I was at Grapevine. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the outlying districts? Mr. ARNETT. They were giving a description of the man that they had a description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the Texas Theater. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot? Mr. ARNETT. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the third floor at the elevator. Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third floor? Mr. ARNETT. I would say 6 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor ? Mr. ARNETT. That's what I started doing. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before you arrived, before you got there? Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, and Sergeant Dugger, were there 'with me when I was working there. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you replace anybody? Mr. ARNETT. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth. Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get your instructions from? Mr. ARNETT. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now. Mr. GRIFFIN. IS he a regular sergeant? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ride on the elevator?

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Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they had to show their identification. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby? Mr. ARNETT. Did I recognize him? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of identification did you ask for when people got off of the elevator? Mr. ARNETT. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I was--I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector. Mr. GRIFFIN. Postal inspector? Mr. ARNETT. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator? Mr. ARNETT. I would say four. Two elevators. Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do about people who came up, who said they came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with some other business other than being a photographer or--- Mr. ARNETT. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs and see them. Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, would you have admitted him? Mr. ARNETT. A justice of the peace? Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those? Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you have let him in? Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, without notifying one of these regular officers standing there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have considered this a proper identification? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know where he was from. He might have been from Dallas. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any lawyers come up? Mr. ARNETT. Lawyers? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they conducted themselves? Mr. ARNETT. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do you imagine that Ruby could have got by? Mr. ARNETT. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that night, I

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would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the basement, the 24th. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have recognized him? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you were on duty on Friday? Mr. ARNETT. Friday night? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night. Mr. GRIFFIN. After 11 o'clock what did you do ? Mr. ARNETT. I went home. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody replace you on those doors? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that was? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in admitting people? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you come in on Saturday? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come in on Saturday? Mr. ARNETT. Around 2 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. And how late did you stay? Mr. ARNETT. Until about 11. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday? Mr. ARNETT. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but I did work where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you can walk down. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is L. M. Baker. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were stationed by Captain Fritz' office? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that? Mr. ARNETT. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I didn't. Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do you mean that you were inside the homicide office? Mr. ARNETT. No; I was outside. Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide door? Mr. ARNETT. In the hallway. Mr. GRIFFIN Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office? Mr. ARNETT. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door to get to his office. Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the homicide office ? Mr. ARNETT. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark it [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you initial those two places and date them where I marked them [indicating] ? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right? Mr. GRIFFIN. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau? Mr. ARNETT. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many people

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in there and out--what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you received some instructions from one of the other officers? Mr. ARNETT. Did there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time was that? Mr. ARNETT. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you? Mr. ARNETT. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was this told to you? Mr. ARNETT. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from. Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went and made a telephone call? Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went. in Chief Curry's--not in his office, now, but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. I am almost certain I did. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building or Mr. ARNETT. He was at home. Mr. GRIFFIN. He was at home. Is he a regular officer? Mr. ARNETT. He is a reserve lieutenant. Mr. GRIFFIN. He is a reserve lieutenant? Mr. ARNETT. He is my assistant. Mr. GRIFFIN. Then Merrell .told you that you would have to have some men? Mr. ARNETT. That they wanted some men, yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him that, is that right? Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon, I believe. Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt to locate some reserves that night? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the police department building? Mr. ARNETT. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there. Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men should be there? Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally when he would be moved? Mr. ARNETT. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 o'clock they would be plenty early. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive any other information? Mr. ARNETT. Of what time it would be? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the announcement to the press?

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Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would that have gone through the dispatcher's office? Mr. ARNETT. For him to call me would--yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that right? Mr. ARNETT. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have been. Mr. GRIFFIN. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the most accurate Mr. ARNETT. It would be recorded all right. Mr. GRIFFIN. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon people would have known that something was going to happen. Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection with the information you received about the move, that Oswald was going to be moved the next day? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it would show--you would have to first check and see what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. You see? Mr. GRIFFIN. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically ? Mr. ARNETT. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name wouldn't have been on there. Mr. GRIFFIN. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett? Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't believe our names would have been mentioned on the air. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy? Mr. ARNETT. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, we will just say 243 or 242 or--I don't know what number it was now, but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained by the police department? Mr. ARNETT. I suppose they are kept for a long time. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and Courts Building the next day ? Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock a.m. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men would you estimate that you contacted about this between the time that you got the word from Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock? Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell--I mean Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two people I contacted on it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact any other officers, to give instructions to men? Mr. ARNETT. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would have given instructions similar to ones you gave? Mr. ARNETT Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't contact him. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that next morning? Mr. ARNETT. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Each; each lieutenant? Mr. ARNETT. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Had 18 all together? Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you came in the building on Sunday morning? Mr. ARNETT. I either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember entering the building? Mr. ARNETT. Do I remember entering the building ? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came through? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at that time were there any TV cables strung through there? Mr. ARNETT. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, and I do believe that there were cables running through the door. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records room? Mr. ARNETT. Down that way [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Going north? Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there? Mr. ARNETT. They would be on Harwood Street, then? Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Mr. ARNETT. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street ? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you familiar with that door? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar with that door? Mr. ARNETT. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in. Mr. GRIFFIN. You went down into the subbasement? Mr. ARNETT. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records building. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building? Mr. ARNETT. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the where the police officers' locker room is? Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the Commerce Street side? Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not. Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk off of the sidewalk on Commerce Street Mr. ARNETT. And go down in the basement. Mr. GRIFFIN. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records room? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them is, if I am not mistaken, off to the fight, as you face the hallway, and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that? Mr. ARNETT. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room? Mr. ARNETT. No; I sure wouldn't.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go--and got inside the building? Mr. ARNETT. I Saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to Commerce Street [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. We have, got it turned right around to me. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. This is Commerce going out? Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. Mr. ARNETT. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in here [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were have got them there [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, behind the TV cameras-- Mr. ARNETT. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV Mr. ARNETT. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put a reserve officer out there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that reserve officer that you put there? Mr. ARNETT. Worley. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right Now, I am going to put an X--well, you put an X on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, please. Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] W-o-- Mr. GRIFFIN. [ Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y. Now what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley in there? Mr. ARNETT. Shortly after 9 o'clock. Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think it was? Mr. ARNETT. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. Mr. ARNETT. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Mr. ARNETT. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at that spot? Mr. ARNETT. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad car. Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that? Mr. ARNETT. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam, we searched the basement. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you accompany him all the way around? Mr. ARNETT. In this area, I did [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion? Mr. ARNETT. That's it (indicating).

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on the map stairs up, behind elevators No. I and No. 2. Mr. ARNETT. Did I go up the stairs? Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Did you go to that area with him? Mr. ARNETT. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all this right in here [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking about here. Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 and the door- way to the stair up, correct? Mr. ARNETT. Right. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and Sergeant Dean do? Mr. ARNETT. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular officer stationed-- Mr. ARNETT. At the elevators [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, and put an X there? Mr. ARNETT. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e-g-u-l-a-r Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation? Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't working at the time I was there. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there? Mr. ARNETT. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up? Mr. ARNETT. Did you say are there a door there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door there? Mr. ARNETT. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the first aid station? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you and Sergeant Dean made? Mr. ARNETT. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlight and--- Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that leads to the stairs up? Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't go? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Did you go to that. area where the first-aid station is? Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant _ _ _ _ _I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back there searched the---- Mr. ARNETT. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a man to walk in there [indicating].

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Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail office---- Mr. ARNETT. No; it's not behind it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, here is the jail office [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did you search any other area with Sergeant Dean? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where I was? (The record was here read by the reporter.) Mr. GRIFFIN. After you searched the basement, where did you go? Mr. ARNETT. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that; would you write around that, after search of basement [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] B-a-s-p---- Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you remain there at that position? Mr. ARNETT. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes. Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? Mr. ARNETT. J.C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer. Mr. GRIFFIN. Replaced by J. C. Hunt? Mr. ARNETT. Hunt. Mr. GRIFFIN. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go? Mr. ARNETT. I had sent some men outside---- Mr. GRIFFIN. No; where did you go? Mr. ARNETT. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of the reserves [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. You circulated in the basement? Mr. ARNETT. In the basement. Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make assignments? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. What assignments did you make? Mr. ARNETT. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant _ _ _ _ this little sergeant that I was trying to name while ago--Could I call the man and ask him that boy's name? Mr. GRIFFIN. That's not really important. Mr. ARNETT. It isn't? Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you assign people outside of the building? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make assignments to the various intersections? Mr. ARNETT. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce south-side street. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ARNETT. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the street [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. You sent all your men to Commerce? Mr. ARNETT. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that particular time. Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you send your other men? Mr. ARNETT. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl? Mr. ARNETT. Main and Pearl? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

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Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl? Mr. ARNETT. Not before the shooting. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the Credit Building--what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp of it. That's out on Commerce Street. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement? Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make the assignment myself. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the basement at any time after this particular period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did you leave the basement area? Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the garage and ramp area the entire time? Mr. ARNETT. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; where we marked the A? Mr. ARNETT. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my stand right in here [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the Mr. ARNETT. Basement. Mr. GRIFFIN. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom? Mr. ARNETT. [No response.] Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where you stationed yourself at about 11:05? Mr. ARNETT. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Mr. ARNETT. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Mr. ARNETT. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an A there, also? Mr. ARNETT. Okay [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. And put a circle around that. Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived? Mr. ARNETT. I would say 11:05. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05? Mr. ARNETT. I believe I looked at my watch. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write up a report on this on November 24? Mr. ARNETT. Did I write it up? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I made the statement. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry? Mr. ARNETT. Well, that's the letter [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about 11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4? Mr. ARNETT. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being 11:05 when I went there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was writing that letter. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationed

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yourself here, in terms of how much before---well, in terms of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself before or--- Mr. ARNETT. It was here before I went there. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. This was after the armored car arrived? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down? Mr. ARNETT. After I placed myself over there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Well, around 15 minutes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down? Mr. ARNETT. I know what time the ambulance was called. Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that? Mr. ARNETT. 11:21. Mr. GRIFFIN. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights from the TV cameras on? Mr. ARNETT. Were they on? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, they had been on all the time. Mr. GRIFFIN. They had been on all the time? Mr. ARNETT. They wasn't alive all the time. Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the cameras weren't alive? Mr. ARNETT. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights on from those TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you call. Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean the floodlights. Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera or Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject? Mr. ARNETT. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Over where these TV cameras are. were there some lights placed in association with those cameras? Mr. ARNETT. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the truth-- Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I mean, that [indicating] was burning. Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they beam a lot of lights down? Mr. ARNETT. I know what you are talking about there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this happened. Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in there? Mr. ARNETT. There was a ear came out the ramp, after we got in line, and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We broke up Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked out

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over in there; could you see cars or people or anything over behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was before Lee Oswald was brought down. Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage? Mr. ARNETT. I saw it coming out of the ramp. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe I did. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether you could see objects in that area? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage? Mr. ARNETT. Uh huh. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you watch it go? Mr. ARNETT. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp. Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out of the way, for it to go by. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed across there before the car came out? Mr. ARNETT. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all the way across there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Sam Pierce's car? Mr. ARNETT. They say it was. Mr. GRIFFIN. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in that car? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before Lee Oswald was shot? Mr. ARNETT. There was one come out and backed up in position. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main Street ramp ? Mr. ARNETT. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that. Mr. GRIFFIN. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it really is. But what do you think you saw when this car--you say you think you saw two cars go up the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it. Mr. GRIFFIN. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second car go up ? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it wasn't very long. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I did not. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to look over at that armored car? Mr. ARNETT. It was straight in front of me. Mr. GRIFFIN. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, wasn't it? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the way under the shed. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Butler up there? Mr. ARNETT. Captain Butler?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember Captain Butler. Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area? Sergeant Dean. Mr. ARNETT. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see the bottle fall out? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street ramp-- Mr. ARNETT. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp. Mr. GRIFFIN. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up that too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around, and looking back up that way. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer stationed up there? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; there was. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him up there? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you know who he was ? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though. Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that? Mr. ARNETT. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident investigator has a rod patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a regular patrolman. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp? Mr. ARNETT. Did I See him before he got up there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about that. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember seeing him in the basement before he was sent up? Mr. ARNETT. Not that I recall; no sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see the green patch on his Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh. Mr. GRIFFIN. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you? Mr. ARNETT. Not all the time. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you wearing glasses that time? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like this [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20? Mr. ARNETT. No, Sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses. Mr. GRIFFIN. But you still tell me--- Mr. ARNETT. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance---I drive without glasses. Mr. GRIFFIN. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print and something like that [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your glasses off a second. Mr. ARNETT. Okay [complying]. Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored spot on there [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. I See a rod one. Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet away from you, aren't I [indicating]?

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Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many red spots do you see on there? Mr. ARNETT. I only see one. Mr. GRIFFIN. One big one? Mr. ARNETT. Well---- Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one blurred one? Mr. ARNETT. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my little finger, end of it [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell what sort of shape it is? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow? Mr. ARNETT. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it. I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Is that right? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this man's green patch on his---- Mr. ARNETT. That's right. He was a patrolman. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way. Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to time glance up in this general direction? Mr. ARNETT. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You are talking about this "A" here [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the ramp [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. I could from there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you glance up from time to time? Mr. ARNETT. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did or didn't. More than likely I did. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to time? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say I did; yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV cameras at any time? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your area on that side of the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he to your right or was he in front of you ? Mr. ARNETT. He was to my right. Mr. GRIFFIN. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison? Mr. ARNETT. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out?

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Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was directly---- you know, next to him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody behind you? Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to state for the record that we have here a Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that I held this thing from Captain Arnett--is that right, Captain Arnett [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]? Mr. DAVIS. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. How many colored things do you see? Mr. DAVIS. Six. Mr. GRIFFIN. He has got better--- Mr. DAVIS. Five dots and a colored arrow. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow? Mr. DAVIS. See what? Mr. GRIFFIN. Stem on the arrow. Mr. DAVIS. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow. Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got 20-20 vision? Mr. DAVIS. (Nods head.) Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't wear glasses? Mr. DAVIS. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. The record should reflect he did a better job than you. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to the back of the room over there. Mr. ARNETT. Back where? Mr. GRIFFIN. Step over to the doorway there. Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card? Mr. ARNETT. I see green and white [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. See any other colors [indicating] ? Mr. ARNETT. There is a little lighter up at the top of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on there [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. Well, to that end I see something light running up and down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal. I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can see it with your glasses on [indicating] ? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it? Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it. Mr. ARNETT. Do you think I got anywhere close to it? Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think so.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand there was nobody standing behind you? Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to your left? Mr. ARNETT. To my left? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming Mr. ARNETT. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't know. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie Harrison was in? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison was in front of me. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start another one here. All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the map where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when Oswald came out [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put an "A" where you were standing. Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where Blackie Harrison was standing. Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left? Mr. ARNETT. A. news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where this other one was. Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" where that newspaper reporter was. Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the railing? Mr. ARNETT. There was. one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he was in civilian clothes or who they Were or anything about it. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a question there. Mr. ARNETT. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.] Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where there was a newsman? Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the man that had the microphone? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in front of that man? Mr. ARNETT. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't say [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left? Mr. ARNETT. I would say they were. Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on the chart here? Mr. ARNETT. Well, standing there with them, well--- Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after Oswald was shot? Mr. ARNETT. I have seen them; yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see--- Mr. ARNETT. That didn't have any bearing on that. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see yourself in those movies? Mr. ARNETT. I am in some magazines.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to see yourself in the magazines? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that how you were able to distinguish--- Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people ? Mr. ARNETT. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before films or magazines, either one. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought was a newsman? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show Captain King? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that just you come through on these magazine shots? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all. Mr. GRIFFIN. What magazine did you see yourself in? Mr. ARNETT. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From Childhood to---I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page your picture was on? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's not before the shooting, no. Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting? Mr. ARNETT. Shows me scuffling with--- Mr. GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in that line, have you? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where did you see that picture? Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days. Mr. GRIFFIN. In Four Days you saw that? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either. Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture? Mr. ARNETT. I believe it does. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days? Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. No. There is three. Mr. GRIFFIN. Three pictures of you? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they all on the same page? Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page or not, but they are in the same connection. Mr. GRIFFIN. They are all in connection with the shooting? Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to tell you what they are? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any other part (indicating). Mr. GRIFFIN. Just shows the top of your head? Mr. ARNETT. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there? Mr. ARNETT. That's the only one I have seen. Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show anything but your rice? Mr. ARNETT. From about right here up [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. About the middle of your chest up? Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the gun, before I took hold of Ruby.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the crowd? Mr. ARNETT. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him move in front of you? Mr. ARNETT. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Illustrate. Mr. ARNETT. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way (indicating). Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, about where Blackie Harrison was. Mr. ARNETT. All right. Mr. GRIFFIN. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your right. Mr. ARNETT. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Mr. ARNETT. The first thing Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about that far away from him [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison? Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. Mr. GRIFFIN. And looking over his right shoulder? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Lee Oswald came out----[indicating]---- Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking to your right? Mr. ARNETT. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you get back there in the position where you first saw Jack. Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] Mr. GRIFFIN. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that about how far Jack was from---- Mr. ARNETT. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that how far he was from Harrison? Mr. ARNETT. He might have been a little further out this way from him, but (indicating). Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was standing forward, he was standing between--in front of Harrison in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp? Mr. ARNETT. Right. Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was off to Harrison's left? Mr. ARNETT. He was to Harrison's left a little bit. Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him? Mr. ARNETT. Just as you and I [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Facing almost directly at Oswald? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point? Mr. ARNETT. In this position [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back? Mr. ARNETT. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT, No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who would have been directly--as you are standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main Street ramp [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said--I didn't know his name. I said he was to my right. Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left? Mr. ARNETT. Yes; left. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King?

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Mr. ARNETT. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I wouldn't say for certain [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man from the man you saw next to you holding the pad? Mr. ARNETT. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man. Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you able to state that? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby. Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that newsman again? Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him again; is that the question? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. After the shooting? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not. Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he have on a hat? Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe he did. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he wear glasses? Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a suit on? Mr. ARNETT. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of that type. Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was shot? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this time. I believe they had all been there all this time. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about I minute before Oswald was shot there was a car that drove up and split the lines up? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. I don't know whether it was I minute. Mr. GRIFFIN. But shortly before? Mr. ARNETT. Shortly before there was; yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up the ramp? Mr. ARNETT. I believe so. Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think he was. Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think I remember him being there with me. Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Captain King about this man? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after the shooting of Oswald? Mr. ARNETT. After the shooting? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were' you in the building the rest of the day? Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went home about 1:30. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors about how Ruby got down into that basement? Mr. ARNETT. That day? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I didn't that day.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short break, about 2 minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read the last part back? (The record was here read by the reporter.) Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex, Captain nett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]? Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on the side that I showed you? Mr. ARNETT. It was up like this. Yes [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the side [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that? Mr. ARNETT. Just sign it? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex. Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036. Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were standing, [indicating] ? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Just before Oswald came out? Mr. ARNETT. [Nods head.] Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right next to Blackie Harrison's left? Mr. ARNETT. To his left? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. As he would face up Commerce Street? Mr. GRIFFIN. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man to his left? Mr. ARNETT. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men manning the cameras? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may have been the last one in that row, I don't know. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie? Mr. ARNETT. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the front row, but--- Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in? Mr. ARNETT. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say. Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over with the gun? Mr. ARNETT. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever he shot him he went down like that [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald ? Mr. ARNETT. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby standing still? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same row that Blackie Harrison was in?

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Mr. ARNETT. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFEN. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive instructions came out as to where these newspaper people were to stand? Mr. ARNETT. Where the newspaper--no; I did not. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when some men convened around Officer Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave some instructions? Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Jones? Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Captain Jones. Mr. ARNETT. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I don't remember any group being around him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street side? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I did not. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were to do there? Mr. ARNETT. Well, the main instructions I had was to---when we was placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be. Mr. GRIFFIN. But that was an hour before? Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that door from the jail, jail office? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep the area free? Mr. ARNETT. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do? Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions like that? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you write the report that has been marked as Exhibit 5033? Mr. ARNETT. When did I write it? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ARNETT That one was--let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th.--- Mr. ARNETT. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the 27th. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. How do you spoil composed? Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d. Mr. ARNETT [Spelling] C-o-m-p----- Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling]---o-s-e-d. Mr. ARNETT. November 27? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the police department about the events? Mr. ARNETT. You mean how it was---how they were set up or something? Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Any conversations--did you talk with any of the police officers? Mr. ARNETT. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down there

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and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some and go out there myself, and I did. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had happened on November 24? Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were talking about this one particular area. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about how Ruby got into the basement? Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but I don't know, but I have heard that. Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby might have got down in the basement? Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As far as just individuals talking to anybody about .it, I don't remember, you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement. Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you think he was? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in there any length of time, I just don't believe he was. Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing? Mr. ARNETT. Would I have seen him? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I would have. Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think you would have? Mr. ARNETT Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time after Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards the Jail office? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over that rail I would have got the glance off of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see things happening over by that railing? Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have saw him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you? Mr. ARNETT. No. Sure wouldn't have. Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. You have got this thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street ramp, where would that line---how far would that line have come from the TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]? Mr. ARNETT. How far would it come? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]---- Mr. ARNETT. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV cameras; would

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you say that the TV cameras and you were the same distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of you? Mr. ARNETT. They were a little in front of me. Mr. GRIFFIN. How much; by a little bit, would you say? Mr. ARNETT. Well, 5 feet. Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less than 5 feet? Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am just roughly guessing now. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there people congregated around those TV cameras, in front of those TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. In front of it? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any of them being in front of it. Mr. GRIFFIN. How about along the sides of the TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, operating it. Mr. GRIFFIN. But there weren't other people crowded down around them? Mr. ARNETT. Not that I remember; no, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras? Mr. ARNETT. It could have. Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would you have seen him? Mr. ARNETT. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't have; no, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after Rio Pierce's car went up? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean you don't remember or---- Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember looking around, no sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that you should have seen Ruby in there? Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before you wrote this statement? Mr. ARNETT. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you. Mr. GRIFFIN. Who asked you to write this statement? Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the statement whether you saw Ruby in there? Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be no cause for him to ask me that, .because I am telling you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel. Mr. ARNETT. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired. Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating]. Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any changes to them? Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth as I can. just sign it or Mr. GRIFFIN. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one and this one here [indicating]? Off the record. (Discussion off the record. ) Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition? Mr. ARNETT. Before tonight?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. Mr. GRIFFIN. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I took your deposition? Mr. ARNETT. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where the other one came from. Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and---- Mr. ARNETT. Absolutely. Mr. GRIFFIN. And advise us? Mr. ARNETT. I am for you 100 percent. Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all.