Author
Topic: Berkeley Brawl (Read 3228 times)

Splitting off from the other thread, let's talk about what happened on tax day.

Just so we're clear, I'm more interested in uncovering the truth of what happened than promoting either side. I keep hearing wild rumors, and would like to sort the wheat from the chaff. So to begin with, if you have any evidence, I'd love to see it.

Does the nature of the right wing's violent intent at this event as allegedly spawned by the presence of Antifa invalidate the individual Antifa in question's fear for her safety or the validity of her desire for self-defence? Also, does alleged firecracker-throwing from Antifa give the system carte blanche to ignore violence when it affects Antifa protesters?

You seem to be taking it for granted that the protesters (who apparently weren't all right-wingers) had violent intent to begin with. Is that the case, or am I missing something?

Apart from the conclusion that she was holding the bottle by its neck like a weapon. You can't see it from that photo because it is obscured by her body. It is actually hard to see who is holding the bottle or how they are holding it. It actually looks like it was knocked loose by the impact.

But sorry paragon carry on

How about video footage taken from another angle? Would that satisfy you?

Or if you'd like a more comprehensive analysis, I found a Snopes article. It's possible that she may not have been actually getting ready to throw it (she claims she was just cleaning up some trash), but all the visual evidence says she was holding it.

Also, I'd like you to keep the unfounded accusations to a minimum, please.

Lana, I give not a single fuck about Nazis and alt-righters getting shit tossed at them.

These people are the scum of the fucking Earth!

OK then, let's play your game. Let's paint the protesters in the worst possible light. For the sake of argument, I'm going to pretend that every single protester was a card-carrying white supremacist. Would that justify attacking them?

Splitting off from the other thread, let's talk about what happened on tax day.

Just so we're clear, I'm more interested in uncovering the truth of what happened than promoting either side. I keep hearing wild rumors, and would like to sort the wheat from the chaff. So to begin with, if you have any evidence, I'd love to see it.

Does the nature of the right wing's violent intent at this event as allegedly spawned by the presence of Antifa invalidate the individual Antifa in question's fear for her safety or the validity of her desire for self-defence? Also, does alleged firecracker-throwing from Antifa give the system carte blanche to ignore violence when it affects Antifa protesters?

You seem to be taking it for granted that the protesters (who apparently weren't all right-wingers) had violent intent to begin with. Is that the case, or am I missing something?

Apart from the conclusion that she was holding the bottle by its neck like a weapon. You can't see it from that photo because it is obscured by her body. It is actually hard to see who is holding the bottle or how they are holding it. It actually looks like it was knocked loose by the impact.

But sorry paragon carry on

How about video footage taken from another angle? Would that satisfy you?

Or if you'd like a more comprehensive analysis, I found a Snopes article. It's possible that she may not have been actually getting ready to throw it (she claims she was just cleaning up some trash), but all the visual evidence says she was holding it.

Also, I'd like you to keep the unfounded accusations to a minimum, please.

Lana, I give not a single fuck about Nazis and alt-righters getting shit tossed at them.

These people are the scum of the fucking Earth!

OK then, let's play your game. Let's paint the protesters in the worst possible light. For the sake of argument, I'm going to pretend that every single protester was a card-carrying white supremacist. Would that justify attacking them?

Fuck paragon,

You really don't read your sources do you. Firstly I watched the youtube footage and couldn't see any point where she was throwing a bottle or even where the person who had a hat on like her was throwing the bottle. The only clear shot in that clip was her getting punched fucking hard in the face.

The Snopes article characterises the claim as 'mostly false'. However the claim wasn't that she was throwing bottles but rather that she was putting M80s in bottles prior to throwing them. The white supremacist who punched her in the face doesn't appear to have claimed she was throwing bottles or minature IEDs.

Apart from the footage labeling her being caught out it does nothing of the sort. However it allows hacks like you to raise sufficient doubt in people who don't watch it to spin a narrative that it was in fact the person who was getting punched square in the face who was the violent offender.

You know what even if she was throwing bottles or explosive bottles that bloke outweighed her by at least 50 solid pounds and was an ex-marine. He could have tackled and held her without ever ploughing his fist through her face. But you know what I'm sorry clearly he is both the real victim and the hero of the piece.

And what false accusations? That you're paragon. I don't give a fuck that you are paragon but having to put up with the pretence that you are not shits me.

Splitting off from the other thread, let's talk about what happened on tax day.

Just so we're clear, I'm more interested in uncovering the truth of what happened than promoting either side. I keep hearing wild rumors, and would like to sort the wheat from the chaff. So to begin with, if you have any evidence, I'd love to see it.

Does the nature of the right wing's violent intent at this event as allegedly spawned by the presence of Antifa invalidate the individual Antifa in question's fear for her safety or the validity of her desire for self-defence? Also, does alleged firecracker-throwing from Antifa give the system carte blanche to ignore violence when it affects Antifa protesters?

You seem to be taking it for granted that the protesters (who apparently weren't all right-wingers) had violent intent to begin with. Is that the case, or am I missing something?

Apart from the conclusion that she was holding the bottle by its neck like a weapon. You can't see it from that photo because it is obscured by her body. It is actually hard to see who is holding the bottle or how they are holding it. It actually looks like it was knocked loose by the impact.

But sorry paragon carry on

How about video footage taken from another angle? Would that satisfy you?

Or if you'd like a more comprehensive analysis, I found a Snopes article. It's possible that she may not have been actually getting ready to throw it (she claims she was just cleaning up some trash), but all the visual evidence says she was holding it.

Also, I'd like you to keep the unfounded accusations to a minimum, please.

Lana, I give not a single fuck about Nazis and alt-righters getting shit tossed at them.

These people are the scum of the fucking Earth!

OK then, let's play your game. Let's paint the protesters in the worst possible light. For the sake of argument, I'm going to pretend that every single protester was a card-carrying white supremacist. Would that justify attacking them?

Fuck paragon,

You really don't read your sources do you. Firstly I watched the youtube footage and couldn't see any point where she was throwing a bottle or even where the person who had a hat on like her was throwing the bottle. The only clear shot in that clip was her getting punched fucking hard in the face.

Did you read my post? I never said that she was throwing the bottle, just that she might have been. Might. All I wanted to do was prove that she was holding the bottle. That's what you were questioning, not whether she was throwing it.

The Snopes article characterises the claim as 'mostly false'. However the claim wasn't that she was throwing bottles but rather that she was putting M80s in bottles prior to throwing them. The white supremacist who punched her in the face doesn't appear to have claimed she was throwing bottles or minature IEDs.

Apart from the footage labeling her being caught out it does nothing of the sort. However it allows hacks like you to raise sufficient doubt in people who don't watch it to spin a narrative that it was in fact the person who was getting punched square in the face who was the violent offender.

Like I said, I'm not interested in narratives, just the truth. Whether she was actually throwing bottles has yet to be established, but we can't ignore the possibility.

You know what even if she was throwing bottles or explosive bottles that bloke outweighed her by at least 50 solid pounds and was an ex-marine. He could have tackled and held her without ever ploughing his fist through her face. But you know what I'm sorry clearly he is both the real victim and the hero of the piece.

I never said that the man was some kind of hero. I don't know which of the two was in the wrong, or if they both were. What's wrong with waiting until you have more information to pass judgment?

1) Your obsessed with the same issues2) You post in the same style3) You debate in the same style4) You use a lot of similar terms and phrases

We all know it's you dude, you aren't fooling anyone. Next time you ban dodge put more effort into make your new persona seem different, like actually reading your links or learning to just let shit go when people disagree with you.

One who gives a fuck if she was holding a bottle? I'm just going to start snotting any motherfucker who crosses me with a drink bottle. Fuck for all I knew they might, 'might', might, have been preparing to throw it.

Two, let's assume she was throwing bottles. Fuck let's assume that she was throwing bottles with M80s in them - which is what Snopes considered was 'mostly false'. Punching her in the face is still assault. Particularly when you see the punch connect she isn't a threat at that time. He didn't need to punch her in self-defence or the defense of others. As I said he had at least 50 pounds on her if not more. If he wanted to subdue her, he could have easily done that without punching her. Police aren't allowed to punch you in the face when arresting you, it is excessive force. How come you are suggesting that white supremacists should be?

And now you are going to pretend that's not what you are doing, but the problem with that is, it is exactly what you are doing. You suggest we have all the facts before we pass judgment. As if somehow something might exculpate the guy? All that might come out is that she also broke a law. Her breaking a law doesn't excuse his assault. Likewise her getting assaulted does not mean anything if she was throwing bottles.

But given how dishonest the people who push this narrative are (I'm not pushing a narrative I'm just after the truth), I'm not inclined to give too much of a fuck.

In any event it is clear he committed assault. Why wait to decide that? Because it may be the person he assaulted isn't an ideal victim?

Why do you want evidence? I don't need to convince you, you are either paragon or your not. If you are paragon you know it, if you're not you know it. Do you just want to know how long it will be before you are caught? Again? Look as I've said before I don't care that you're paragon. I personally feel that given your persistence an exception should be made and you shouldn't be banned for ban evasion. I don't even give a fuck if you make heaps of sock puppets, after all you are prepared to argue with them. Just stop insulting our intelligence you smug fuckknuckle.

Logged

Even Then

There's actual photographic evidence of an Antifa protester being punched in the F&B thread, which you yourself posted and referred to as punching. If you don't consider that a mark of violent intent (whether it was spawned by the presence of Antifa or not is irrelevant, since you're arguing the lack of violent intent in general), then I don't really know what to say.

And I went through the whole video, there's only one explosion unless I missed something.

If this was not an implication that the Antifa deserved to get punched... Then what was it?

In the same thread you also said:

Quote

How many right-wingers were assaulting people before Antifa showed up? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.

And:

Quote

She was holding the bottle by its neck, like a weapon. I'm not saying she was definitely getting ready to throw it, but it does look like she was. I'll wait for more information before I pass judgment one way or the other.

Either you are saying that she deserved to get punched or these quotes have nothing to do at all with the debate.

And now that I am back to using these images:

Stop using videos and links unless they have actually something to do with what you are arguing about and stop ignoring any and all data that does not support your claims.

OK then, let's play your game. Let's paint the protesters in the worst possible light. For the sake of argument, I'm going to pretend that every single protester was a card-carrying white supremacist. Would that justify attacking them?

That's it, too many fouls for Lana. I'm giving you an official moderator warning: You are clearly not interested in honest debate or playing the devils advocate. You "imply" and "just thought that some alternate explanation [that favours Nazis] should be given consideration" but then you use a gish gallop and ignore all evidence contrary to your "not actual claim just a possibility." And I for one am getting tired of this. Just come out clean and say that you are Alt-Right and start debating on why you think that ideology is valid if that's what you really think but enough of this bullshit.

I also noticed that the SNOPES article Lana used to imply that she may have been preparing to throw the bottle actually says the opposite.

SNOPES went through the timeline and there is no evidence of the Antifa using bottle-bombs and no evidence of throwing bottles. She got punched twice in less than 10 seconds and during the first punch she didn't have a bottle or any other weapon. That is such a short time that if she was going to use it as a weapon odds say that she grabbed it because she was attacked by Mr. MAGA and was trying to defend herself with it.

The Snopes article actually clarifies that it was the first punch when she had the bottle. There is no evidence of her having prepared to throw it, however. It was obviously meant as a weapon and she lies about not having had it at all but according to Anal Paragon's own standards of proof it is not shown that she did not have it for self defense. It wouldn't be fair to give the benefit of a doubt only to the Nazis, after all.