They should be thrown under the bus. The anti-abortion group's position is so odious as to be deserving of whatever fate they may face.

The language demanded by Stupak and friends, if adopted, would assure that only those with means can even hope to obtain an abortion. As is typical from social conservatives, it is the poor who must suffer for their (the Cons') sanctimony.

Abortion is health care. It is legal in this country if anyone would take a moment to notice — you know, just like it's legal for all you good, god fearin' folk to walk around packing heat.

So, let's condemn those without means to suffer their indiscretions, or suffer the ignominy of rape, or endanger their own health and lives — forcing them to carry unwanted children to term, so that self-righteous fundamentalists and other tight-assed prigs can thumb their noses and say, "We told you so. You're going to burn in hell, you impecunious whore!"

Health care reform is more than likely going to pass. Dennis Kucinich announced his intention to vote for the bill. I believe others will follow suit. Why? Because the failure of this bill will most assuredly be the death knell for current Dems and probably Obama's presidency. And, that's what it's all about.

The demonizing of the current health care reform bill, as I've said ad nauseam here and elsewhere, has little or nothing to do with health care or even with ideology when considering most congressional Reps. It is political. Nothing more. The Reps and most people residing here at BC of whatever ilk are absolutely soiling their Fruit of the Looms at the prospect of dumping the Dems in November and Obama in 2012 — or what would provide even more of enematic effect would be his early resignation. The country would be awash in the "Red State Runs."

The health care bill is worlds away from being what many of us pro-reformers envisioned a year ago. Reps and weak-kneed Blue Dogs have so watered it down as to render it in many ways unrecognizable, having far fewer teeth than we had hoped.

Nevertheless, it still has a number of good points — and it does not represent a government takeover of our health care system, sad to say.

But, it does represent a starting point, a departure from the unholy status quo. Personally, I'd love to see the profit motive removed from our health care system altogether. But I'm enough of a realist to know that ain't gonna happen; not while I'm drawing breath at any rate.

If this bill fails, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anyone will get up and propose any significant health care reform from either side of the aisle — probably for at least a decade, or perhaps not for a generation or more. The stench its failure will linger for many a year.

Obama has placed his presidency directly on the chopping block that is health care reform. It it fails, the axe will fall. This, of course, is contrary to what the Reps are predicting.

But give this some thought: Does anyone imagine that the Reps have any concern for the political welfare of their Dem rivals? Or might it not in fact be the direst wish of the Reps that it will somehow become a self-realizing prophecy?

Should the bill pass, people will soon come to realize that the world will not have ended. Grandma will still be allowed to wile away the hours in her rocker — or go skydiving without fear of some mobile euthanasia collecting unit turning up her street.

People will come to learn that little if anything will have changed regarding any insurance coverage they may have, and those that have none will begin to realize that access to decent health care is or soon will be a reality for them.

As it stands, maddeningly, the medical insurance providers will no doubt be laughing all the way to the bank, but I think it possible that those days will end in the not too distant future.

There will doubtless be screw-ups and unintended consequences. There will be things not properly considered and issues not even thought of at all that will plague the system for some time. Yes, there will be waste and fraud. But, how is that different from the way things are now?

On balance, people will be able to obtain medical coverage for less cost. People will not be denied coverage owing to pre-existing conditions. People won't be denied coverage after certain dollar limits are met. People will be able to carry their children on their family policies until they turn 27 if they choose.

In short, there are a number of positive aspects to this reform bill. Some of the dreck will be excised over time. Not all of it, I'm sure. But enough.

In short, there are a number of positive aspects to this reform bill. Some of the dreck will be excised over time. Not all of it, I’m sure. But enough.

Based on history this is the exact opposite of what will happen. The dreck will stay, more will be added, costs will skyrocket and quality will plunge. Waiting lines, deaths, job losses and business failures. The legacy of this bill will be disaster and political holocaust for the democrats.

Dave

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

I don’t think we can base anything on history in this mess, Dave. We’ve devolved into the Idiocracy nation. I am incensed over this textbook controversy and if Texas maintains its position it rings the death knell for public education.

The Health Care debate has so crippled Washington that it has had a profound effect in every department within Federal government. I was appalled at some of the stories I heard this week concerning the frustration of Federal employees who are trying their best to discharge their duties but can’t because funding and departmental policies have been put on hold for sake of health care. There are so many agencies who want to do right by the citizens but can’t because they survive at the whims of a handful of members of Congress. It’s time for a political revolution.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

Personally, I’d love to see the profit motive removed from our health care system altogether.

Then you better throw the doctors ($250 for 15 minutes), hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and reps, and everyone else in the health care system that makes a profit, “under the bus too.”

Free medical care for ALL! Even after they eat, drink, smoke, and drug their lazy asses into diabetes, heart attacks, high blood pressure, obesity, etc. (list too long). Take no responsibility: let the government take care of you. Wow, where do I sign up?

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Baritone,

It’s good to read you here!

You know I agree with you, so we don’t have much to debate about, however we could discus how to get people to see past their own noses and small little lives?

It obnoxious to read the slurs written by commentators that apparently don’t have any health care shortage of their own, yet the thought of helping the rest of the country attain affordable or any health care is see as a hand-out, welfare, or crumbs thrown to undeserving lazy people.

The only thing that’s undeserving here is to classify an entire nation in this narrow tunnel-minded fashion.

Please come over and read myarticle if you feel up to it, OK? It’s about the right to vote, although it has turned into a verbal war about what else, the health care bill, and definitely it is going to pass!

:)Have a nice day, B

Jordan Richardson

Christine,

Yes, free medical care for all. Imagine that!

And where do you sign up? Well, you can come to Canada for starters.

Do you really propose that people who commit these so-called “health sins” should be simply left to rot in the streets if they can’t pay their bill? Do you really want to live in that kind of world, Christine?

Imagine what that would look like.

You conservatives say you hate the nanny state, yet you enforce one by making everyone fall in line with “right living” lest they be left out of the natural care and inclusiveness that a society should generate for its fellows.

Is it really that bad of a thing to take care of one another, regardless of whether we agree with one another’s lifestyle choices or not?

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

One more comment, B,

Abortion is NOT going to be a wedge issue for the “holier than the rest of us” this time around, so roll your sleeves up because they are still going to cry foul!

I had an Uncle who lost his first love to a back ally abortion in the thirties; I wish it had been legal for her.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Jordan,

Whenever you talk about health care, I have more reason to fight right along with you.

You give em hell! AY?

Canada, is a country where they have a functioning health care system that’s not taking an entire nation to bankruptcy and where they treat their citizens with more respect than their corporations.

GO CANADA!

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

“($250 for 15 minutes)” -MDs

Do you approve or disapprove, hard to figure from your comment. And you’re grossly mistaken if you think they’re making that much.

For all intents and purposes, MDs may well be on salaries (because the only way to make money in medicine these days is by cheating).

And I don’t think you’d encourage that, Christine, would you now?

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

Christine’s attitude and perspective is quite typical of many conservatives. They assume that all those less fortunate are just slackers. That attitude was clearly demonstrated overthe last day or two on video of a group of anti-health reformers openly taunting a wheel chair bound fellow with Parkinson’s. Good stuff.

Also, the same spirit was often demonstrated during a # of the town hall meetings last summer. These instances may be anecdotal, but I look upon them as symptomatic.

Dave and the Reps predict Armageddon if health care reform passes. The Dems don’t. As I noted, things will likely go awry, but the doomsday predictions are at best, overblown.

And again, back to the lovely Christine: Really! Does your scenario hold true in the plethora of countries that have universal health care? Are the Canadians, the Germans, the English, the French, the Aussies – yada, yada, yada… all simply nations of slackers?

I have prejudices and failings as we all do. I am glad, however, that I don’t harbour such a dismal view of people as you apparently do, Christine.

B

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

B,

I saw the video of that man being attacked in a wheelchair.

It really shows the true nature of those that are so afraid of change that they would stoop this low!

These are most likely some of the same people that are apposed to abortion, because they call it murder, yet they could give a crap about you after you are born!

http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

Christine,

Who do you think should get to decide who ate, drank, couch-potatoed or drugged their way to poor health and who is just unfortunate?

http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

That’s easy Doc-Jerry Falwell’s ghost

http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

the failure of this bill will most assuredly be the death knell for current Dems and probably Obama’s presidency. And, that’s what it’s all about.

You got that one on the money, Baritone. For me, it’s all about bringing down that Jew-hater, Obama. The more he is stifled, the more he is made desperate, the stupider his decisions will be (though I gotta admit, in his case, that’ll take some work).

That is exactly what I want to see – a desperate American president who hates Israel and Jews making stupid decisions. That way, he does for me, what I want to see him do.

Don’t take it personally, Baritone. This has nothing to do with ideology, or what I think of you, or national health care, or even of Americans generally.

But this fellow you elected, now that you elected him, and now that he is doing the evil I predicted he would do, must be brought to his knees….

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

Christine’s attitude and perspective is quite typical of many conservatives. They assume that all those less fortunate are just slackers.

Well, let’s try and be fair here. Many people are under the mistaken impression that all of the less fortunate are slackers based upon what they’ve personally experienced. The dynamics of life in California are quite different than, say, Detroit. Tip O’Neill used to say “politics is local”. You can change “politics” to any word you want. How one neighborhood handles poverty may be quite different from another.

What we need to do is move away from generalizations. Case in point is the marijuana legalization debate. The last thing Barack Obama wants is a discussion during his first term. Why? Because legalization of pot during the first Administration of the First Black President would have stereotypical as well as political ramifications. I can see the Tea Party now — anti-Obama posters with the President as a Rastafarian. We’re such an easily led society. All we need are images and no substance to draw stupid conclusions.

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

Christine’s attitude and perspective is quite typical of many conservatives. They assume that all those less fortunate are just slackers.

Well, let’s try and be fair here. Many people are under the mistaken impression that all of the less fortunate are slackers based upon what they’ve personally experienced. The dynamics of life in California are quite different than, say, Detroit. Tip O’Neill used to say “politics is local”. You can change “politics” to any word you want. How one neighborhood handles poverty may be quite different from another.

What we need to do is move away from generalizations. Case in point is the marijuana legalization debate. The last thing Barack Obama wants is a discussion during his first term. Why? Because legalization of pot during the first Administration of the First Black President would have stereotypical as well as political ramifications. I can see the Tea Party now — anti-Obama posters with the President as a Rastafarian. We’re such an easily led society. All we need are images and no substance to draw stupid conclusions.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

If Christine, developed a preexisting condition she would see her world quit differently, yes?

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Silas,

Good point! I have wondered why they don’t just legalize it and get it out of the hands of the drug-lords to generate income. This is a very good explanation.

The last thing Barack Obama wants is a discussion during his first term. Why? Because legalization of pot during the first Administration of the First Black President would have stereotypical as well as political ramifications. I can see the Tea Party now — anti-Obama posters with the President as a Rastafarian.

Boeke

Christine appears to have limited worldly experience.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

Wow, I am so honored. I am in the health and fitness industry (have been for almost 30 years), and I can tell you for a fact that at least 65% (being generous) of chronic diseases come from a bad diet and lack of exercise, plus other lifestyle decisions. And I don’t need to defend the stats that if you smoke (ciggs), bad things are bound to happen.

In fact, I took my teenager to the doctor when she was having some chronic stomach problems and what WE (me and the doc) figured out was that it was all due to lack of water.

And yes, there are times when “shit” happens with no fault of our own and I should know. But won’t go there. My point is that we should take responsibility for our actions, or lack there of.

By the way, our government already helps our poor and the elderly: called medicaid and medicare.

By the way: Jeannie, I have 3 pre-existing conditions and my health insurance (when I have it) costs me a shit load of money.

By the way: I tried to make a doctors appointment the other day with a neurologist because my head was gonna explode (maybe due to blogcritics) and they wanted to charge me $250, of which would of taken Dr. S 15 minutes to evaluate me and send me on my way. And how do I know that? Because I have been to Dr. S before.

Too bad B thinks so poorly of me. What is frustrating is that when libs (not all), especially “progressives” disagree, they go for the throat. Kind of pathetic and it makes it difficult to have a decent, intelligent debate.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

Actually, Jeannie make that 4 pre-existing conditions!

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Christine,

No question about correlation between healthy living and health. Don’t forget though how much of the advertising dollar is spent precisely to encourage bad diet and fast foods. People are being duped by the very system you so valiantly defend.

The $250.00 you pay doesn’t all go to the MD – only a fraction thereof. The lion’s share is being eaten up by administrative costs.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

Well, Roger, then why do all the doctors I know, have a net worth of about $2 to $5 million, (some much more)?

Duped or too lazy to figure “shit” out? Does it take a rocket scientist to know that twinkies are bad for you?

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

“What is frustrating is that when libs (not all), especially “progressives” disagree, they go for the throat. Kind of pathetic and it makes it difficult to have a decent, intelligent debate.”

But it was your blanket slam against supposed slackers that set this thread off, is it not?

Yes indeed. All those stupid lazy poor people should start working out at LA Fitness and shopping at Whole Foods and purchase all organic foods. I just don’t know what’s wrong with those people?

B

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Christine,

You’re right there. My sister’s and brother-in law’s assets are 6 million or so. But she complains she can hardly make a living anymore. I’ll never know the truth. Perhaps they made their fortune earlier, over 25-30 years of practice.

So I say, put those suckers on salaries, run all hospitals on the model of military hospitals. Then she objects, saying it’ll remove the motivation, not being in business for yourself. I say, “what business, if it’s true what you’re saying that you’re barely making it?”

It’s an ongoing and thus far unresolved conversation.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

I was making the point (dramatically) that we should take responsibility for our own health, that is all. Not meant to be a slam against all.

For you to connect ALL conservatives to anyone “taunting a wheel chair bound fellow with Parkinson’s” is way over the top!

My niece is paralyzed and wheelchair-bound, for life probably, and at the young age of 23. It breaks my heart everyday! She helped me write my diet book and is on my website!

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Baritone is right, Christine.

You do have to be rather well-off to shop at Whole Foods. It’s a luxury not available to everyone. McDonald’s and Burger King is the poor man’s diet, especially if they’ve got to make payments on their SUVs.

And you wouldn’t want to deprive them of their SUVs, would you now? They do contribute thus to the American economy.

And so goes the vicious circle. Meanwhile, let’s just blame the poor and the ignorant.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

Roger, I was being sarcastic because B’ said (I’m not against it at all) “for profit” and I know doctors make a shit load of profit, including my ex boyfriend, Neurosurgeon. I do know that they are very smart with their money and do make other investments that make them more money!

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Yes, Christine, responsibility for self is important. But it’s easier said than done, especially for persons who have to live from paycheck to paycheck and make ends meet.

We can’t just assume that everyone is the exact replica of ourselves, a whole person. In fact, there are very few whole persons walking the face of the earth, including the rich ones. That’s why empathy and understanding are so important, so that we not judge others too hastily.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

You don’t have to shop at Whole Foods to eat a healthy diet! But we can skip the flat screen TV’s, I-pods, I-phones and all the other “junk” WE buy to get health insurance.

SUV”s just caught that one! And they contribute to the next Obama agenda item: Cap and Tax!

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

Roger, it is not a judgement, but isn’t that what we teach our children: to take responsibility for their actions. So, shouldn’t we as adults do the same?

As a fitness trainer, believe or not, I am very compassionate, even when my clients complain how “fat they are” but refuse to eat right and exercise.

The poverty (the REAL poor with no way out) thing is another matter entirely and is very complicated, once of which I don’t profess to have all the answers. However, we do have medical help for them: medicaid.

Arch Conservative

“And where do you sign up? Well, you can come to Canada for starters.”

Tell that to Danny Williams

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

I’m not disputing your main points, Christine, only suggesting that we should be more wary of judging others until we walk in their shoes.

Sure, we all teach our children all the right things, things we don’t do ourselves. And the children still turned up like their parents, excuse the lingo, “fucked up.” Don’t you think we, the adults, are at least partly responsible?

There’s another thing, too. We may well know what’s good for us, which doesn’t mean we can’t and won’t act in self-destructive ways.

There are no easy answers.

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

Roger, I don’t always practice what I preach and have my own vices. I even GAINED 8 pounds when I wrote my diet book. Damn! So, thanks for the chat, gotta run. Take care.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Likewise, Christine. Later.

You realize I hope why I’m being easy on you. It’s the very same principle I’m arguing for.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Christine,

Health care reform legislation will also help you.

For you to connect ALL conservatives to anyone “taunting a wheel chair bound fellow with Parkinson’s” is way over the top!

For you to constantly say that anyone who teaches or belongs to the union is a thug is also way over the top.

Still, I always try to read your articles and comment politely. In fact, I dugg your article on childhood obesity, and aren’t we friends on blog-talk radio?

I’m sorry that you feel singled out, but I was not talking about you when I said to B that I had also seen that video.

Both Baritone and I were talking about the goof-balls in the video, and not you.

So, is it possible to get past this?

http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

Jeannie: I singled out B on the wheelchair thing and did not that not all libs. I like you and most here on BC.

However, no mention of you other than the “pre-existing condition.” And, I never said that teachers were thugs, just SEIU. I thought we resolved the teacher conversation, of which I clarified that it had to do with my recent experience with my teenager daughters and that I mentioned my teachers in high school were great to me. Hmmm, maybe you forgot that part?

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

I am very zealous these days, Christine, and I can’t wait until this health care debate goes to the next level.

I did snap at you, and for that I apologize, but you were not in my mind when I recalled the video that they showed on the news, it was truly awful, and You are not those people.

I want to listen to Silas tonight , but I don’t think I can stay awake that long.

If you go and I’m not there, then you know what happened. I’ve been up since five this morning…

:)hope we are still buddys the Consevative and the liberal

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

The Conservative and the Liberal! sounds like a series.

Megan

I have no idea why everyone is so quick to take on a form of healthcare that has a proven track record of NOT WORKING. Say hello to long lines, inadequate care and bonus, your costs are likely to go up. How else are we going to pay for this? No longer will you be able to even SEE a specialist. As before, when you used to make an appointment to see a real MD, as far as you get will be to see a nurse practicioner or maybe a PA (if you’re lucky.) We are so beyond screwed if this bill gets passed.

How can all of us, who call ourselves Americans, stand by and allow everything that this country was based on to be thrown out the window. People come to this country hoping for a better life from where they came. The term the “American Dream”” wasn’t plucked out of thin air. It’s because there is no other country in the entire WORLD that can give someone the opportunities and potential that this country offers. And you know what, who gives a damn that CEO’s and other Wall Street Execs make millions of dollars a year. You know what, because of them the bar is set high and its that kind of potential that allows all of us to achieve as much as we are willing to work hard for. Operative word here being WORK.

Not to mention, I think doctors should make a lot of money. Do you know what kind of intelligence, dedication and passion it takes to be a doctor. If someone is cutting me open, I want them to be the best. I have worked with many a doctor through my profession and I can tell you this much. Most of them have huge ego’s and for a damn good reason. I want the best for my care, and if this bill gets passed you better just hope you don’t get sick. That is my best advice to you.

Boeke

I guess Arch Conservative is the last person in North America to be told that the “Danny Williams Story” was bogus: he just wanted to go to his Condo in Florida to escape some of that cold northern weather. There are at least 4 places in Canada he could have had the procedure done, and Canada is even a leader in that surgery.

“31 – Arch Conservative
Mar 18, 2010 at 4:06 pm

“And where do you sign up? Well, you can come to Canada for starters.”

Tell that to Danny Williams”

Yeah, tell it to Danny Williams.

Boeke

So, Christine, are you saying (instead) that all SEIU members are thugs!

“36 – Christine
…
And, I never said that teachers were thugs, just SEIU.”

Doug Hunter

#39

Megan, you stepped into a war zone and asked what this guy personally has against that guy. There are much greater forces at play here. Some people will be worse off, some will be better under the new system. The only sure things are that taxes will increase creating additional servitude and dependency on the government, which is the entire point of this exercise.

Just read through the posts on this and other topics and a picture will emerge. This is about the forces of big government and it’s authoritarian backers against those fleeting ideas of individuality and freedom. Dependency is their greatest weapon and to depend on the government for your very life is an extremely powerful tool to break their opponents with.

You’ll note that (and it even occurs in this thread) they often wish poverty, pre-existing conditions, handicaps, victimhood, etc. on their opponents as they know that people in weakened and dependent states are their greatest ally and will desperately grasp out at anything that offers security regardless of the tradeoff.

You’ll notice that they also despise the concepts of freedom and liberty which they alternatingly scoff at or try and redefine to include compelled government services. Finally, if all else fails you can identify them by the constant accusations of ‘selfishness’ for anyone who dares to stand up for any rights in the face of the almighty government utopia they know must exist.

Now, you won’t change anyone’s opinion in a comments thread and indeed the deck may be stacked against us little guys but I feel we’re doing a valuable service by providing a scapegoat for the failed emergence of their government utopia and a good outside/other to demonize. If they run out of us then they have to blame other countries or “international capitalism” or worse go into that weird leftwing paranoid secret police mode.

http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

“everything that this country was based on to be thrown out the window.”

if you include only males getting a right to vote, then you get no say in the matter, Megan

STM

Of course, the worst thing about this is that he’s had to cancel his trip to Australia to see the legislation through.

Everyone’s a winner!

Especially Mr Obama, who now doesn’t have to spend 36 hours with our droning Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, who could win Olympic gold boring for Australia.

Say what you will, though, at least he’s spending some time at home focusing on getting his policies through congress.

Unlike our PM, who has spent much of his first couple of years in office gallivanting around the world big-noting, and who could learn a lesson from Mr Obama’s determination to stand firm on a piece of policy that will benefit the nation, not detract from it.

By the way Doug, universal health care and liberty, freedom and all the other bullsh.t you guys jump up and down about aren’t mutually exclusive concepts.

Community isn’t socialism either. The Soviet Union and red China was socialism … this ain’t. It’s something going a little ways to solving a problem that has dogged the US for decades.

America’s been dragging its arse for too long on this one.

Obama’s just playing catch-up. Anyway, surely you’d love to see your tax dollar go to something tangible that actually helps everyone, rather than for something that just benefits a few?

I wouldn’t think freedom, liberty and all the other stuff is dependent on how much dough you’ve got.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

“This bill will pass and then we will all wake up the next day and fix the parts that aren’t working, we will survive.”-Joe Scarborough

:)good morning B

David

You don’t know the laws and your article is inaccurate. Federal dollars are prohibited from abortions excluding rape, incest or life of mother issues. Those are covered. Get the facts and stop hating fiscally conservative people who don’t want their tax dollars contributing to post glory birth control. Poor or not, there are consequences for your actions and being poor doesn’t mean you get to avoid those and guess what – millions of people will adopt your child if you can’t afford to take care of your responsibility.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

I don’t have much time right now – but what Stan & Jeannie said/quoted.

Oh, and good morning to you J.

Doug Hunter

“By the way Doug, universal health care and liberty, freedom and all the other bullsh.t you guys jump up and down about (scoffing) aren’t mutually exclusive concepts.”

It’s difficult to name which straw broke the camel’s back, freedom faces death of a thousand cuts. Obviously, you’re content with the security tradeoffs your government has made (and why shouldn’t you, your life depends on it), a large percentage of North Koreans are probably happy with theirs as well…. I’m not. By the way, government is not community either although that’d be a nice newspeak addition.

Freedom to do only the ‘right’ things isn’t really freedom at all.

STM

Some of yer best work there.

Yeah, right. Don’t be a doug, dick. Sorry, did that come out wrong?

Australia and North Korea are so similar, right, you can easily make that comparison???? Fair dinkum.

Why not save the bullsh.t for the millions of dopes in your own country who can’t tell mountains of smelly brown stuff from clay, not people from elsewhere who can and worked out a long time ago there’s no pot of gold at the end of a pile of poop.

And next time someone decides to start a country by banging on incessantly about freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I hope they remember to tell the black fellas down in the shed at the same time.

Nina

The problem is many faceted. First off, insurance is there to pay off your medical bill. Your medical bill is fraught with excessive costs which is where the problem lies. If you want to reform health care, start by limiting the ridiculous awards from frivolous lawsuits filed by people looking for a quick buck. No wonder physicians are retiring, who wants 1/3 of their salary to go to malpractice insurance only to potentially lose your ability to practice for lack of it. Lawyers have hurt more people than doctors. Just because 3 out of 100 people suffer ill from a treatment that may have saved 30 out of that 100, we have to scrap the treatment and pay those 3 people 10 million dollars. Medicine is not 100%. By using class envy and demonizing doctors, you hurt the argument. By your logic, doctors should work for a median salary (how dare them retire with 3 million dollars!?!) and somehow be more generous than the rest of us. Let me say this, if you take out the financial reward for a physician to practice PEOPLE WILL STOP GOING TO MED SCHOOL! Why would someone spend 10-14 grueling years of no sleep, challenging course work, and massive school debt, simply to get paid what an engineer makes? They won’t and we will find ourselves in a bigger medical shortage than ever. You think doctors should work for less….you do it.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

“if you take out the financial reward for a physician to practice PEOPLE WILL STOP GOING TO MED SCHOOL!”

Perhaps that wouldn’t be such a bad thing. Medicine, just like teaching, even the study of law, ought to be a vocation. So perhaps we’d all be better off without such people.

Let them go for degrees in business administration.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

David,

“Federal dollars are prohibited from abortions excluding rape, incest or life of mother issues.”

Not if the Honorable Rep. Stupak gets his way.

The remainder of your comment is simply bullshit. It is conservative hatred and arrogance that fuels this fire.

The point I made remains: Only those with means will be able to obtain abortion services – most often the daughters of rich conservatives, while the poor will either have to resort to good old coat hanger procedures or forego the procedure all together, or as you suggest abstain. Of course this means that along with being poor, they must also live up to a higher standard of behaviour than the rest of us. It’s all sanctimonious bullshit!

Adoption? Ha!

B

Brandon

Sorry, being a medical student that is going to go through more education than all of you probably combined, I believe I am entitled to earn a good living. You probably have no problem with a 19 year old making millions shooting a basketball do you? Yet, you have a problem with someone motivated enough to work 90 hours a week during residency, sometimes more, then average 60 hours a week for the rest of our lives? Get a clue. Doctors deserve good pay because they choose a life more difficult than any of you, then you expect them to do it for free? Why not start subsidizing lawyer fees? Only in America do you have simpletons telling the hardworking what to do, how much to work, and for what pay. Insane.

Arch Conservative

Well said Brandon.

Maybe we should make a list of the services offered by all of those supporting this horrendous health care bill and then claim we have a right to what they are offering.

The insurance companies are sticking it to us so the federal government is going to step in and save us all? That’s horrible logic, especially given the history of our federal government and anyone who believes it is a fucking idiot.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Simply stated for those that don’t understand what this bill will do for the taxpayer; it will save 1.3 trillion taxpayer dollars over the next 20 years.

:)J

STM

Nina … If people become doctors because of the financial reward, perhaps careers in stockbrokers or real-estate development might be more up their alley.

It’s the worst reason ever to become a doctor.

STM

That said, every med student knows they will make good bucks. Even in countries with universal health care, they are among the highest paid of the professions.

Don’t get caught up in your own bullsh.t.

STM

Brandon: “Sorry, being a medical student that is going to go through more education than all of you probably combined”.

Hey, that’ll be a great attitude to carry into your chosen vocation, eh Brandon.

“I’m a doctor, therefore better than you” … the very kind of thing they warn you NOT to do in medical school.

I recommend you google Professor Fred Hollows to find out what it really means to be a doctor, and then re-adjust the attitude accordingly – somewhere between the two extremes of him and you – before one of your lecturers recommends a career change.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Brandon is full of horse manure. He doesn’t deserve a response.

zingzing

dave: “Based on history”

what history?

brandon, if i swallowed a bunch of dollar bills, would you know how to cut them out of me? yes, doctors should make good money, that’s for sure. but you just made a good argument against doctors making good money, you [this would just be edited].

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Actually, Brandon is a very poor excuse for an educated person. It’s certainly money down the drain.

And if that’s any kind of forewarning as to the kind of doctor he is going to be, let all patients beware.

STM

Grammar sucks too Brandon.

STM

‘Cause, you know, we’re all simpletons and Brandon ain’t.

Megan

Yeah all you “simpletons” can stop self deprecating and maybe put the time, effort and general hard work it takes to become un-simple. SImpletons isn’t word we chose to describe you…it is what you are. Congrats. And you all motivate each other to become nothing greater than simple. That is why America is heading south. I commend Brandon. I wish there were more people like you…and I think you deserve to earn what you have worked hard for.

http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

So nice to see that the level of American political debate is as high as ever.

STM

Megan: “That is why America is heading south.”

What, to Australia??

STM

Waddya reckon Doc? Megan is Brandon’s mum?

Arch Conservative

What’s wrong with you Brandon? Why must you be such an ammoral, greedy, uncaring bastard?

Don’t you know that your right to earn a living ends is superseded by STM’s right to demand your services for free or at the very least set your rate of pay.

All the countless hours spent studying, the nights on call, the hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans…they mean nothing because STM and Roger, never having been to medical school and incurred the debt that you have, will tell you how it is. They will tell you all about what it means to be a physician and you better accept it damn it. If they tell you that you have to work for peanuts despite the student loans, the malpractics insurance and a family to feed, then you WILL work for peanuts and you will like it. The only reason you’re even allowed to have your job is to provide medical care for STM when he wants it and doesn’t feel like paying for it. Roger and STM are both captains in the career motive police Brandon so maybe you’d better just keep your mouth shut and do as they say.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

It’s still a puzzle to me why Brandon doesn’t want to become a stockbroker. Perhaps you can answer that, Archie.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

B,

There are a lot of people who think differently than many of these commentors and apparently they aren’t posting in these threads.

One day to go before people will be able to buy insurance from an insurance company. Imagine that radical ideal!

:)morning

Brandon

Sorry, came off a little harsh, for that I apologize. However, I do have a problem with people expecting physicians to never look out for themselves and their own families. Healthcare is a profession, thus there are professionals. Professionals get paid, and after $200,000 of debt, and 20 years, I should be paid well. This is not why I went into healthcare, however, do you honestly think someone would go through the hell of 20 years of education for $100k? Don’t just take that number at face value either. Take out 1/3 for malpractice (in case someone’s hang nail comes off during surgery), 1/3 for taxes, and you’re left with $30k a year for your own family, who you barely see because the average physician works 60 hours a week. Now, would any of you go through that for $30k a year? Sacrifice holidays, kids events, etc. and still be poor? A gas station manager makes more than that and is home for dinner every night. What’s going to happen if physicians say screw it and quit, and the waiting lines are 6 months long, as they are in single-payer systems? No one seemed to respond to the assertion that you are ok paying a 19 year old millions to shoot a basketball, but not ok paying someone who saves lives a decent wage that is indicative to the commitment they have made. If anyone here is a physician, then speak up.

Brandon

Roger-

I am curious as to what your profession is. Does the government come in and tell you how much you will be paid, no matter how much you charge/bill? For example, a surgery costs let’s say $20k (that’s how much medicare will reimburse). Because the hospital is being spread thin because the emergency room eats up a lot of money, the number they charge goes up via an increase in OR fees. Now, malpractice goes up because they base insurance off of total costs and risk, etc. well that cost just went up. So now the OR fee and malpractice is up, well, you can’t take money out of your nursing staff, can you? So, you take it out of your own pay. Well, that $20k surgery is now $35k, but medicare doesn’t adjust to that level. So, as a surgeon, you get paid less and less due to the large overhead. Soon, you realize that your practice can’t survive, so you try to stop taking medicare patients (yes, it’s immoral, but wouldn’t closing your practice down and not helping anyone be even worse?). Then guess what, the lines increase for medicare patients because no one is able to help them without literally losing money. What would you do?

I’m curious if you went through residency and missed many family events to help someone else? Or are you the desk job type guy that thinks he knows everything?

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

You know, I have no problem with doctors, or anyone for that matter, making big money.
Although, many of the really big money docs I’ve known made more with investments than their respective practices. Medicine just provided seed money.

Also, a number of docs coming out of school & residencies initially only find work for clinics or larger practices more or less like a newby lawyer – maybe bringing in $125K to $150K. Certainly not big money.

But that’s not really the issue. The issue here is providing affordable health care to all, or at least most of the people in this country. Many other countries have managed to do so. The US, which is all caught up in the profit motive, has not. The first concern of government and all of us should be for the welfare of ALL citizens including the state of their (our) health. A healthy populace is a productive populace.

But really Brandon, your bedside manner needs a little tweaking.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Brandon,

My sister and brother-in-law are both MDs. So yes, I do know about medical schools and the incredible work involved to get through.

But you shouldn’t be so sensitive about my or STM’s remarks. The profit-motive is all and good, but it’s not the only kind of motive that counts, and certainly not the only kind of motive to ensure utmost dedication.

Again, the argument simply is that certain professions are labor of love, and many people used to go into medicine, or teaching, or into science, simply because they saw those fields as emotionally fulfilling – not just for the money.

If you have problem understanding this, then indeed any further discussion with you is useless.

Boeke

Apparently, judging by bailouts, being rich DOES mean you get to avoid consequences.

“46 – David
…Poor or not, there are consequences for your actions and being poor doesn’t mean you get to avoid those …”

http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

Don’t take this personally, Brandon; it is not meant to be a shot at you.

Many of us still remember when doctors with black bags made house calls; we still remember when it seemed as if they gave a damn for the people they treated, and when they kept their conversations about golf-dates and the like to themselves.

I’d be willing to pay serious money for a visit to my home – not all of us had half a day to take off for visits to clinics where half the day was wasted waiting for a five minute consultation that seemed grudgingly given.

Doctors do not make house calls anymore in the States. Patients are treated like dogs – well cossetted dogs perhaps – but dogs who are expected to heel not merely to the words of a doctor but to a host of semi-professionals who order them about as though they themselves were sitting on the right hand of Jesus in the heavens.

That is how many doctors – people who work long hours in internships and who devote 60 hours a week to their professions – are seen in America – a country I no longer live in.

I’ll give you just a brief glimpse of medicine as it is practiced in Israel.

In late 2003, laying in hospital late Friday night, when the vast majority of people are either sleeping off a Sabbath meal or walking it off; or in the alternative, driving to discotheques and getting drunk and dying in car accidents – a Russian speaking nurse summoned a Russian speaking doctor to discuss me. It sounded like Natasha arguing with Boris Badenov for all I understood of what they were saying, but one thing was clear. The nurse and the doctor regarded each other as equals and gave each other respect. They then proceeded to go to work on the patient, redoing a bandage I had on for a stent that had been inserted about 12 hours earlier. I felt a whole lot better after they were don and thanked them both – and remember to this day how the two related to each other.

It was very different from what I saw in the States as to how doctors regarded nurses anywhere.

Think about the structure of the clinics or institutions where you will work and you will find many of the faults of American medicine staring you in the face.

There is a terrible arrogance about it all, and now doctors are being made to pay. Is that right? No. Is it fair? No. But when you have an infantile populace that expects mcdinner in three minutes flat, cheap goods made in India or China for slave wages, and an arrogant scum in the White House who is nothing more than a power hungry thief from Chicago, what do you expect?

Brandon

I completely understand, and I agree with everything you said Roger. I did not go into medicine with the intent to make money, however, I am not so naive, nor unselfish to dedicate my life to other people’s health without the belief that my own family would be taken care of. I am just sick of going around and reading articles and blogs where people complain about physicians and their salaries/income, as if we’re the ones driving up prices. In actuality, what the American people need to hear is the truth; as a populace we are obese, we do not have healthy habits, we smoke, we drink, we just don;t take care of ourselvse. This leads to poor health, which leads to increased health care costs. Of course, this is another discussion, where Baritone so kindly interjected his own points.

I wish people could see the real facts regarding our healthcare system, which is in no doubt #1 in the world. Yes, the WHO has infant mortality and lifespan rankings, but those numbers are also not standardized. In the US, EVERY infant is counted as a birth, whereas other countries count only those at certain weeks of gestation. Thus, when we lose a 24 week birth, we count that as a loss, whereas in the UK or France, they simply do not count it even as a birth. Furthermore, if you standardize our crime rate with world wide crime rates, we have the #1 lifespan ranking in the world by 1.5 years. Add in the fact that we are by far the most unhealthy population in the world, and that statistic has even greater significance.

Now, I believe that people with preexisting conditions should be able to get health insurance, but at the same time, should a healthy person who eats right, does not smoke and exercises pay a higher amount to make up for the cost of the obese, diabetic who smokes 2 packs a day? There must be a slight difference in the cost of insurance depending on your lifestyle choices. Of course, personal responsibility doesn’t even really exist anymore.

Anyone have a response for the 19 year old basketball player making millions?

Brandon

Ruvy-

No offense taken at all, actually I agree with everything you said. I would be happy to make at home calls, however, malpractice forbids it. Many doctors would love to have their practice run more like a ‘business’ where they could negotiate treatment prices, etc. It would increase physician competition, bringing down costs. BUT THIS IS FORBIDDEN! Doctors want to be like the one you described, but it is not allowed.

Also, in regard to the doctors and nurses interaction, the reason some doctors get more ‘intense’ with nurses is simply because if anything goes wrong in the OR it is the doctors fault, not the nurses. You would be on a nurses ass too if you knew that if she left the gauze pad in the patient you would have to pay $10k+ while she goes home without any responsibility.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

OK, then. Let’s forget my earlier comment.

As to your last question, yes, I think it’s obscene. Here’s a perfect example of a market system validating such outrageous compensations, especially in times of economic hardship – just because it can.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

The whole system is cockeyed – where intellectual products and expertise are at the bottom of the pay scale – unless of course they generate profit.

zingzing

“Anyone have a response for the 19 year old basketball player making millions?”

the grotesque nature of sports salaries has been discussed for decades, so don’t act like no one bats an eye at them. but there are a couple of economic facts that you seem to forget: highly specialized skills are heavily rewarded and, and this one is the kicker, having a player like lebron james on their team earns the cavs and the city of cleveland many millions more than his contract’s worth. without james around, they would lose those millions, so they pay the man to stick around. as one of the top basketball players in the world, he’s a one-in-a-billion type player. that person gets paid.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Still, zing, it’s the reflection on society’s values. It has all got to do with the revenues generated, pure and simple.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

Being stuck on the abortion topic is frustrating. Pro-choicers do not define a fetus as human life. Pro-Lifers do. Ann Coulter loves to characterize pro-choice advocates as people who “love to kill babies.” Of course, Coulter is an odious turd. Nevertheless, nothing could be further from the truth. To be pro-choice doesn’t mean one “loves” killing anything. But they (we) do believe that a woman should be able to choose what she does with her body and her life.

This notion regarding facing the “consequences of [one’s] actions” is disingenuous. As Boeke notes above – the rich, people of means – do NOT necessarily have to face the consequences. So in effect, it is a double standard.

Further, people screw. Only occasionally do they do so with the intent of procreation. The prudish notion that such activity is sinful is crap. Yet, those who yap on about personal responsibility would also deny people the means to prevent unintended consequences – that is contraception, even the use of condoms.

Young people especially find the mixed messages confusing and contradictory. Hormones run high. All it takes is minutes – a brief moment of lust – to send those little wigglers down the pike in search of the great consummation. For that “indescretion” a woman is supposed to prostrate herself before a disapproving society and in shame accept a life unwanted.

Some do it, and some work through it successfully. Many do not.

What’s funny as noted above: Pro-Lifers supposedly believe life is sacred until it actually starts drawing breath, then it’s pretty much up for grabs.

B

Arch Conservative

“Pro-Lifers supposedly believe life is sacred until it actually starts drawing breath, then it’s pretty much up for grabs.”

So if I believe it’s wrong to murder someone that makes me responsible for the welfare of every person that isn’t murdered Btone?

That’s some interesting logic you have going on there.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

“To be pro-choice doesn’t mean one “loves” killing anything. But they (we) do believe that a woman should be able to choose what she does with her body and her life.” – B

zingzing

archie: “So if I believe it’s wrong to murder someone…”

DEATH PENALTY?

zingzing

yay! anybody see that the tea party protesters are spitting on congressmen and calling them “niggers” and “faggots” and screaming in lisps? don’t hate a hater!

zingzing

oh! oh! and now they’re threatening to shoot people if health care passes. that’s classy.

zingzing

and treating a parkinson’s victim like a bum, throwing money at him and yelling “no more handouts” to a twitching guy.

they’re not assholes. no…

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

They will always tell you that such obnoxious behaviour is not true of the great majority of tea-baggers, conservatives and so on. I suppose they’re right. But the fact remains that there is a significant # of such people who show up at their various rallies, and its just those people who become emboldened enough to take the next step, and the next and so on. The so called “fringe” of the tea-party movement is made up of a lot of really scary people – some looking for their “15 minutes” or perhaps a ticket on the paradise express.

You know I am not much into politics. But I am a mother… And with all these opinions I observe three things..

1. I find it humorous when all you (especially this Christine character)more fortunate folks get so upset when you think some-one may tap into your money or god forbid well being… I suppose maybe then you can understand what it is actually like to go without.
2. The stereotypes thrown about so freely. Most likely by people who may have a strict and lovely lifestyles but still never seem happy. (ps. Stress can also cause health issues Christine, but I am sure you already new that
3. And third… You can stand back and judge all this.. but when your done. Take a look at your character..

One word people~Karma

cannonshop

Hey, I don’t have a problem when you lefties want to race out and put the chains on yourself, I have a problem when you drag ME into slavery with you.

http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

Well, if this bill is passed – can we finally have an end to the strident, preachy articles about why socialized medicine is good – even when you cannot afford it? Can we finally have an end to the strident, preachy articles about how socialized medicine is going to ruin your way of life in America – even though it will?

You know, there is a whole wide world out there that goes beyond the magical words of the evil bastards on the Potomac, beyond American Idol and all the bullshit you navel-gazing Americans cannot draw your gaze from.

For starters, Greece is about go broke, and is going to draw Europe down the toilet with it….

Then there if the fact that the Chinese are no longer buying your worthless T-bills – which will drag you all down the toilet with the Greeks and the Europeans.

I’m sick of your health care debate stinking up the political section here. It’s enough to make a man want to go to a doctor!

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

cannonshop,

Do you look at your driver’s license, voters registration, or library card as a form of enslavement?

Does this sound like slavery?

“This bill is merely an attempt to get the insurer out of your way, so that your doctors can use what they went learned in medical school, instead of satisfying the billing requirements and shortchanging your care.”

OMG, we are all going to be able to buy affordable insurance from companies who can no longer drive us into bankruptcy because we got sick, one of our loved ones got sick, or we had an unforeseen accident.

This is hardly a lefty radical plot to enslave us.

: ) I haven’t shown you that plan yet! lol

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

“use what they went learned” , ya I said that.

Ruvy

A friend of mine from Oakland commented to me yesterday over coffee in Jerusalem, “you know, you can only write on so many topics to Americans – their absorption ability is limited.” Boy did he have you guys tagged on the money.

Still chewin’ the health care bone, eh?

When the bill is signed into law, you can read what your congressmaggots have given you. It doesn’t go into effect for a while yet, so those of you denied insurance because of pre-conditions and the like remain in the lousy condition you are now.

My prediction is that all this will never go into effect – your dollar will collapse before it takes effect, and you will not be in a situation to institute the kinds of changes you need. The coming expense this new law will entail will make the Chinese, Indians and others mere leery of your worthless T-bills, and their refusal to buy them will drive you over the falls into penury faster than you were going to go.

Mazel tov!!

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

We will chew on any bones we want, just make sure you keep your distance and you should be OK, alright?

: )morning Ruvy!

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

Actually, a number of things DO take effect immediately or within the year including no denials for pre-existing conditions for minors and no cancellations owing to high payouts among others.

Frankly, I don’t know of anyone who is happy with the bill as approved, but, it represents a beginning. If one looks at the history of efforts to reform health care in this country – dating back to Teddy Roosevelt, and all the failed efforts since, it is truly miraculous that this bill has gotten to where it is.

Gosh Ruvy, I just don’t understand why all the powers that be both here in the US and in Israel don’t turn all their affairs over to you as you seem to have your finger on the pulse of everything. I don’t know how any of us have managed to survive without you at the helm steering us clear of all the rocks and shoals your prescience allows you to see.

B

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

Well, it’s almost over. Was it the best Congress could do? Yes and no. We need reform in health care, no doubt about it. When it comes down to brass tacks, however, it is apparent that this legislation never should have passed without a complimentary bill restructuring the way the wealth is spread in Washington. I know, it’s boring. Nobody wants to talk about election finance reform. It just isn’t sexy. It just doesn’t sell newspapers. Instead, we need the drama. This entire process was at the expense of every day folks in the trenches.

During the theatrics in the House yesterday, I pointedly Tweeted facts and figures on speakers as they spoke about where some of their money was coming from. I don’t discriminate. Each side of the aisle was exposed. After 3 hours I received an email from a constituent who claimed they were in Rep. Cole’s district in OK. She was enraged — not at me but at Cole because she never knew who was contributing to his campaign. And the contribution which tipped the scale for her? The $4,500 he got from BANKPAC. She’s lost her home — in of all places, Oklahoma! And what could have saved her was just about the same amount of money ($18K) as I noted in my Tweet.

My friends, I don’t mean to be repetitive or boring. But, come on. Don’t you see where I am coming from here? They all use the hot button issues to divert their own complicity in maintaining a broken down system which serves no one but the Congressional membership. It’s not sexy. There are no story lines here which resemble the Jersey Shore cast or the Slutty Housewives of Timbuktu. I believe, with every fiber of my being, that the time has come for a political upheaval in Washington. It’s not about right or left — it’s about doing what is right, period. As both sides spin their stories this morning remember one thing. Each member of Congress who cast their vote yesterday did so not out of a sense of performing their duty but to satisfy those who fund their miserable campaigns.

Once the member of Congress is identified who yelled “baby killer” at Bart Stupak, watch his campaign finance report. That member will get up to $1 million in additional campaign funding for calling out Rep. Stupak as a baby killer. Now, I admit it, I’m no fan of Bart Stupak. But in all fairness there is no member of Congress who has advocated more for the cause of the unborn. That member must be called out, brought to the well of the House and must be censured in a public humiliating forum.

So, here’s the charge. Republicans, you know who called Bart Stupak a baby killer. Come forward. Show the courage of your so-called convictions. Identify the perpetrator. Show your outrage. And the longer you wait the worse it is going to be. The Log Cabins wait in the wings. Unless this matter is resolved post haste, be prepared for a mass OUTING, and I’m not talking a Sunday picnic here. This is the year for truth in politics. It is time for that member of Congress to be shown the door.

http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

This is hardly a lefty radical plot to enslave us.

And as Stan keeps saying, in a few years you’ll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

Yes indeed, Doc.

Silas – The problem of money going to pols is caused directly by the cost of waging a campaign. Even House seats generally cost serious seekers millions. If campaigns were limited in time as you or someone suggested on another thread – say running from around Labor Day through the Nov elections, a one day national primary, etc. NO private funding should be used for campaigns. It should not be necessary for office seekers to be millionaires or have access to millions to finance campaigns.

The problem is especially crucial for House members who must be in campaign mode constantly. At least Senators can rest somewhat easier for a couple of years of so after election before they have to start down the fund raising path again in earnest. It makes whores of them all.

Mooja

An amazing amount of hate oozing from this article. I would expect one so concerned with the common good to be somewhat more respectful of, dare I say open to, contrary opinions. Was unable to make it past the fourth paragraph for fear of getting some on me. Suggest the OP take up UFC in lieu of a social persuasion career.

zingzing

ruvy: “A friend of mine from Oakland commented to me yesterday over coffee in Jerusalem, “you know, you can only write on so many topics to Americans – their absorption ability is limited.” Boy did he have you guys tagged on the money.”

that is absolutely hilarious coming from you. it’s either israel or incessantly saying the same thing over and over again (“you can’t afford it,” or variations on “doomsday approacheth”) from you, so don’t throw stones, ruvster. obviously, there are lots of other things going on in the world, but this certainly is an important decision. people are going to talk about it.

it’s also pretty funny that you’re up there talking about health care one minute then coming back another minute and saying everyone else talks about health care too much…

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

So, Baritone, what can WE do? What should we do? I continue to believe campaign finance reform must be the precursor to achieving substantive political reform which can only create reforms in finance, medicine, health and education. I am completely in support of a Labor Day to November General Election Day cycle. National primaries. No more party primaries for President. We have created the two party system and that, in an of itself, is unconstitutional. Every citizen regardless of station must have equal access to the government table. Anything less is unacceptable.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

We fight to purchase insurance and medicines across state lines and the public option.

: )Wouldn’t you agree?

John Wilson

Cannon, I guess it escaped your notice that we are all in those chains anyway, and half of all tax money goes to war machinery (that can’t protect us) and we already spend $192Billion/year on unwarranted wars, which is more than double the outside cost of the health bill.

If we all have to be in chains to pay taxes we should get something back from it.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Cannon has a flair for melodrama. It’s part of his lingo.

http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

it’s either israel or incessantly saying the same thing over and over again (“you can’t afford it,” or variations on “doomsday approacheth”) from you….

Well, dude, you cannot afford the “health bill” your congressmaggots just stuck you with – and doomsday – a financial doomsday, fer sure – does approach, and the mere fact that you are too blind to see the tsunami wave coming at you doesn’t mean it’s not coming.

And you will discover to your torment and pain, that “he who curses Israel will be cursed”. Your government is doing the cursing, and “you the people” will be held responsible.

I got other stuff to do now.

Later!

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Typical Ruvster. You’ve heard one, you’ve heard them all.

If it wasn’t for the Hebrew God, he’d surely go insane. But as LB had aptly remarked, there is no telling the difference.

Were it not for the G-d of Israel and His hashgaHát pratít, I wouldn’t even waste my time here. Navel-gazing fools are not worth addressing, and if I were only thinking of me, myself and I, I would concentrate on making a bundle of cash to keep me and mine enjoying an high standard of living here. In fact, I’d be no better than the money-grubbing Jews who make up AIPAC.

But I have responsibilities that go beyond all this, and to be blunt, responsibilities that even allow me to communicate with lesser intelligences like yours when needful.

I’ve seen how you insulted the Realist with your comments holding out the pishke for money for him – on a comment thread on his own article no less!! Proof positive that living in a Jewish country does not mean you learn Jewish ethics of respecting the person you would help with charity. And then, to further show your pathetic ignorance of those ethics – not to mention your inability to comprehend the problems of your fellow man – I saw how you berated Jet – a man undergoing a triple bypass – for not participating in your effort.

What a piece of work you are!

Insane people don’t get blamed for their viciousness. But you are very sane.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

I’m well aware of my faults and my transgressions. I’m far from perfect. But the difference is, I don’t have to appeal to God to justify myself. You, on the other hand, seem to invoke his name for whatever you do. And much of what you do, Ruvy, is far from being constructive or encouraging, or anything of the kind. I shan’t use a derogatory term, but I’m sure you’re aware of the general tenor of your comments here. To say the least, they’re not uplifting.

As to communicating with “lesser intelligences,” you’re changing your tack now. I was under the impression that only the Jews were the proper object of your sermonizing and the like. The gentiles didn’t matter. But in any case, and whatever feels right at the time, I really think you should consider the effect of your communicating with “lesser intelligences.” In my not quite so humble opinion, you’re doing them more harm that good.

It’s really best if you cease and desist, if you aim to continue in the same old vein, for their sake (and mine), I beg of you. Let us stumble through life without your kind of enlightenment and wisdom. Spare us please.

Nina

STM,
Obviously you missed my greater point. First off, I will address your rediculous stockbroker comment. I wanted to go to med school. I enjoy the curriculum, but 5 doctors have told me I shouldn’t waste my time. They told me to continue on my nurse anesthesia (7 years of school)because I will make more than a starting physician AND I won’t have to pay $35,000 in malpractice insurance every year. That is SAD. Someone being discouraged to get more years of specialty because it is less expensive for school (I won’t have 250K in debt) and I will make more after graduation. No, money is not the only reason to go into medicine, but someone would be a fool not to consider risk/reward. As far as the stockbroker comment, grow up. It is possible to work in a field where you can combine a good life with career passion.
That being said, my problem is with the system overall and addressing the insurance company (which does not set the hospital bill) is dealing with the lowest common denomenator. You have to start at the top, where are the excessive costs stemming from? Yes, the cost we (atleast I know I pay monthly)is directly to the insurance company, but they merely debate with the hospital to pay the hospital bill. That is where the change needs to come from.

Nina

Ruvy,
I agree that bedside manner is different in America, but again I know that would change if more students were getting into the medical field. Doctor frustration comes from overwork, patients who continually don’t do what you ask them to do and stay sick, beuracracy, etc. This will only get worse if physicians continue to be a shortage. Part of the health care bill needs to have incentives for bright students in the middle class and lower class to have some assistance or scholarships to go to med school. I know there are some programs now that will give some aid if you promise to spend your first 5 years or so in a rural predetermined area. This is great, I think there should be more programs like this and better publicized. Also, we need to rehaul the system and promote more benefits for preventative care (that is an insurance problem).

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Nina,

Yes, and we need to call our representatives and congressional leaders to say this:Part of the health care bill needs to have incentives for bright students in the middle class and lower class to have some assistance or scholarships to go to med school. I know there are some programs now that will give some aid if you promise to spend your first 5 years or so in a rural predetermined area. This is great, I think there should be more programs like this and better publicized. Also, we need to rehaul the system and promote more benefits for preventative care (that is an insurance problem).

There is real power in numbers and the more voices speak up the quicker things will change for the better.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

Nina is right about the rising cost of malpractice insurance.

In between my sister and my brother-in-law, both physicians, they pay over 65 thousand a year, plus a Kentucky state tax on those very premiums besides (cost of doing business).

The fact that this bill did not even address this issue goes to show how compromised it was from the very start.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

While it’s true that doctors and other medical professionals in countries having universal health care generally do not make the kind of money many make here in the US, it is also true that most come out of school essentially sans debt as their education is largely free.

Overall, the medical professions in Europe and elsewhere under the auspices of universal health care systems don’t become filthy rich, but neither are they out in the streets begging for alms. Most live reasonably well.

Many Americans are so caught up in becoming and being rich it all too often becomes the raison d’etre for living and working, and its achievement becomes a hollow, meaningless and endless quest to accumulate and maintain more money and more “toys” than the next guy.

The goal of our country to provide access to health care to all of its citizens is not necessarily a part of that quest. It is simply a recognition that the US does have the means to do so, furthering the effort to promote general prosperity and provide a more level playing field for all.

B

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Well stated Baritone!

And, malpractice insurance shouldn’t be that big of an issue since we still sign our lives away and take on all liability before they make that first slice.

http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

Jeannie, I fear the victory today is hollow. I hope that you take heart all that you’ve shared and learned during this saga at Blogcritics. And in doing so I hope that I can fire up an equally intense passion as I make it my mission to advocate for robust comprehensive election finance reform. It’s time to change the way we do business in America when it comes to electing Federal Officials.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

It is a big issue, Jeannie, because this bill doesn’t go far enough. The insurance companies are still in business, raking as much money as they possibly can, which only will continue to contribute to escalating costs.

I’ve argued earlier that the entire healthcare industry, in all its aspects, has to become nationalized – run by the government, period. You’ve got to take all private interests out of the picture – all of them. It can’t be subject to a profit motive. The only way to go!

http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

Nina,

This “health care reform” power grab will not bring you the kind of reforms you need to provide better service, and from little I see, doctors would still need to carry huge malpractice insurance policies – so people will still be discouraged from entering medicine as doctors.

What this new bill WILL bring you is a much larger IRS poking around your pocketbook, and picking Joe Q. Citizen, turning him upside down, and shaking him for every dime that shakes loose.

zingzing

so now you want to talk about health insurance… and berate americans for talking about health insurance… just close your eyes, ruvy, and drift…

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

I don’t know, zing, why you even bother. You’re only encouraging delinquent behavior.

Just let it ride and our guest from abroad will surely run out of steam or turn his attention to Israel’s affairs, as he rightly should.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

I agree with both Silas and Roger above. However, had this bill NOT passed, we would be back at square one with no hope of change for perhaps a generation. Sometimes things smell or taste bad, but in the end are still good for us. We just have to hold our nose and swallow for now.

The job of selling significant election and election finance reform will be at least as difficult as it has been to pass health reform. It will be highly contentious and not pretty to watch.

Further, I doubt anyone will have the stomach to tackle any such efforts in the wake of the health reform battle. Certainly, between now and November, there probably will be no “hard” votes for anyone to deal with. It will be a while yet before the health reform dust will settle. Other than the Senate’s taking up this last bit of the health care reform changes in the next few days, I imagine things will become very quiet in Congress over the next several months.

B

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

I grant that, B-tone. It was the necessary first step.

My only argument is, we’ve still got a long way to go. So let’s just hope the political will shall prevail.

alan

There is no such thing as free health care, and you said it in your article. “Unwanted Children,” Where is their freedom in all this, who is speaking for them? Let’s go out and have unprotected sex with anyone because I don’t have to worry if I get pregnant, because “free” health care will help me get an abortion. Take some responsibility, get a job, there is no such thing as free health care.

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

It’s almost always a guy who makes thoughtless accusations like alan’s.

Yeah, what’s the matter with all you slackers and whores out there. Get a job and keep your damn legs crossed.

http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

They all just come out of the woodwork, B-tone, like termites. Perhaps your articles have that tendency of smoking ‘em out.

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Yah, where’s my can of raid?

http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

Ah, jeannie, you should be mindful of the environment. Use something “green” like pepper spray.

B

http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

Well, B the bill finally passed and now they will stall on every thing that comes their way…If they are that worried about funds, dismantle that war machine.

J

London

Two days ago my hairdresser told me that she had been raped as a teenager. Being raised as a Catholic she felt she could tell no one and had to have an abortion.

While she understands the basic principle of not making ‘casual’ terminations of human life at any stage she, as much as anyone, is aware of how such drastic action can be used to make a net improvement on human life.

It’s such a difficult question and never helped by emotive comment. I doubt that there is one simple solution, but applying common sense on a case by case basis is probably almost impossible as who makes those decisions and who pays for the process?