So of course Juliet is bad. The question is, why did Sayid and Sawyer back down so quickly after she called them out on their previous misdeeds? And why did Sayid say he "doesn't do that anymore" in regards to torture? Didn't he do a number on Benry?

I'm betting they're going after Sun next.

feldspar

04-12-2007, 09:52 AM

Lamest line of the season:

"She's under my protection."

So of course Juliet is bad. The question is, why did Sayid and Sawyer back down so quickly after she called them out on their previous misdeeds? And why did Sayid say he "doesn't do that anymore" in regards to torture? Didn't he do a number on Benry?

I'm betting they're going after Sun next.

With Jack soon to be devoid of any political capital after it's revealed that Juliet is indeed up to no good, Sawyer and Sayid are first in line to lead the Losties, so they're likely worried about their reputations. I think they both legitimately care about their little group of castaways and don't want them to lose faith in them.

Sayid is incredibly conflicted when it comes to his "gift" of interrogation. He knows that sometimes it is necessary, but he knows that it changes him and affects him, so he tries to seperate himself from it as much as possible. But I think deep down inside of him he knows it will always be a part of him, he just outwardly denies it.

Good point about Sun. Once Juliet finds out she's preggers (assuming she doesn't already know), it's on.

GDT

04-12-2007, 10:41 AM

I'm betting they're going after Sun next.

Or maybe Kate? If they need subjects and don't want to keep killing their own, then the cage incident may have provided them with a perfect opportunity.

oso diablo

04-12-2007, 10:49 AM

i'm not convinced that Juliet is bad. she could be double-crossing Ben, though i don't know yet to what end.

tux

04-12-2007, 10:53 AM

I think the sub was never operational, and that Juliet did not arrive on the island by sub; she just "woke up" on the sub...

Jack was never leaving on the sub. Ben knew it and that's why Locke was allowed to blow it up...

mr. synellinden

04-12-2007, 10:54 AM

Lamest line of the season:

"She's under my protection."

So of course Juliet is bad. The question is, why did Sayid and Sawyer back down so quickly after she called them out on their previous misdeeds? And why did Sayid say he "doesn't do that anymore" in regards to torture? Didn't he do a number on Benry?

I'm betting they're going after Sun next.

I agree - hated that line and the fact that Sayid just accepted it. Why would he accept that? Jack just spent a week with these people, who have tormented, kidnapped and threatened to kill the Losties, and after a week with them he is playing a jolly game of football with them, living peacefully in one of their houses and now saying that Juliette must be accepted as one of them? Sayid is not the type of guy to just accept that and let her join their camp without some answers.

What further bothered me is Jack's explanation as to why he trusts Juliette. Did it ever occur to him that the reason she wants to get off the island so bad is the same reason she would be willing to deceive him - I mean, couldn't Jack consider the likelihood that she wants to leave so bad that she has agreed to a plan devised by Ben that has ulterior motives? Jack is a lot smarter than that (I think).

I also don't buy why Sawyer and Sayid care so much about their reputations that they would let Juliette carry on with her activities without so much as an interrogation as to what is going on with the Others and why Claire needs these drugs.

I thought this episode might have had two subtle messages for loyal viewers but I may be reading too much into things (which is what Lost causes you to do sometimes -(1) the whole episode sets up as the question of whether Juliette is going along for the ride without any master plan, or was the whole thing set-up / planned from the beginning - the same question that viewers have been asking about Lost; and (2) when Sayid says "what makes you think I won't kill you if you don't?", it's almost like the producers saying, viewers, you can't have it both ways, "if we tell you everything about the Others and what's going on on the island, it kills the show (nothing left to find out, why watch?), but if we tell you nothing, you say it kills the show (not enough being revealed each week)." You can't have it both ways. And Jack says at one point - she'll tell you when she's ready ... as the producers will and we have to trust them. Maybe that's too deep of an analysis, but it crossed my mind as I was watching the show.

I did like the backstory because I like when we see the puzzle pieces in terms of timing being filled in. And I think we now know that whatever Juliette is doing is not because she is "in" with the others, it is because she wants to go home. I also thought it gave more color to why Ben is intrigued by Locke and the whole "because I'm in a wheelchair" discussion a few weeks ago. Clearly, it is being driven by the "how did I get cancer HERE?" question.

I hope we are left with more details (but still mystery) surrounding who Jacob is and what the Others are really doing there by the time the season ends. We need to have some info on Locke and the Others in the next episode.

And I wouldn't be very disappointed at this point if Desmond couldn't save Charlie from his apparent fate. He does nothing for the show and is more of an annoyance to me.

BluDevilGal

04-12-2007, 11:01 AM

Quick question for someone who remembers details better than me. Wasn't Rousseau pregnant with Alex when she came to the island? How did she manage to give birth without dying?

Reisen

04-12-2007, 11:02 AM

(2) when Sayid says "what makes you think I won't kill you if you don't?", it's almost like the producers saying, viewers, you can't have it both ways, "if we tell you everything about the Others and what's going on on the island, it kills the show (nothing left to find out, why watch?), but if we tell you nothing, you say it kills the show (not enough being revealed each week)." You can't have it both ways. And Jack says at one point - she'll tell you when she's ready ... as the producers will and we have to trust them. Maybe that's too deep of an analysis, but it crossed my mind as I was watching the show.

I'm not entirely sure if that was put in their purposefully, but I do like your analysis there, and think it rings very true. I've been very pleased with the pace and frequency that events unfold on the island. I think the clamor about "More, More, Faster, Faster" is just a reflection of the "Me" generation today that wants everything "On Demand". No one wants to wait for anything anymore, and they fail to realize that it's the sometimes slow pace that allows Lost to build up those giant "OH #%@$!!!" moments.

dukeblueyes

04-12-2007, 11:08 AM

It seems like they already know about Sun's pregnancy. Kate obviously knows and avoided spilling the beans directly to Juliet, but when Jack first appears on the beach, Sun hugs him and we see them talking and Sun touching her belly. Also, considering how Sun might be pregnant from her affair, and that the Others know pretty much everything from their lives, they might already know she's knocked up.

I like the analysis of re: telling us everything about the others vs. telling us nothing. Honestly, I was pretty disappointed to find out they were just testing fertility treatments. Although it was intriguing to hear Ben claim he can cure cancer (and can do so off of the island)... this might fit in with Rose somehow?
Re: Juliet's sister... how do we know Benry wasn't lying in the first place about her cancer's return and the test results?

I'm also not sure why everyone continues to trust Jack. Granted, I still think he hasn't crossed over to the dark side, but there's no reason for the Beachies to think that. Plus, he's kinda developing a serious case of the crazy eyes.

gus

04-12-2007, 11:22 AM

Lamest line of the season:

"She's under my protection."

So of course Juliet is bad. The question is, why did Sayid and Sawyer back down so quickly after she called them out on their previous misdeeds? And why did Sayid say he "doesn't do that anymore" in regards to torture? Didn't he do a number on Benry?

I'm betting they're going after Sun next.

And Jack will likely help them, thinking it's the best way to help Sun.

JasonEvans

04-12-2007, 12:01 PM

i'm not convinced that Juliet is bad. she could be double-crossing Ben, though i don't know yet to what end.

I agree that this is increasingly possible. I was clear on Juliet being a bad guy right up until they showed us that she was a bad guy. At that moment, a really nice scene by the way, I began suspecting that maybe she is double-crossing Ben. Her flashback did not show her to be someone who respects and admires Ben. I think all she wants to do is get off the island. If she decides that Ben will never let her leave, which is where she has to be at this point, I think she will work against him an work with the Lostaways.

By the way, what a great, great episode!!!

I have not read all of this thread, but did anyone else notice Ben's room? I looked hard at the walls to see what he decorated with. I saw a ton of pictures of his "daughter" Alex. I wonder, how did Ben get these pictures taken and blown up and the such?

-Jason "is there a Fox photo booth on the island?" Evans

JasonEvans

04-12-2007, 12:13 PM

Quick question for someone who remembers details better than me. Wasn't Rousseau pregnant with Alex when she came to the island? How did she manage to give birth without dying?

I don't recall Rousseau ever saying that she gave birth on the island, only that her young daughter was taken from her.

Wait-- revision. According to Wikipedia, Rousseau was pregnant and had Alex on the island. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Rousseau

And according to Lostpedia, she was 7 months pregnant when she arrived on the island. http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Danielle_Rousseau

I think we may have found a place where the Lost mythology does not hold up to scruitiny. This adds to my belief that The Others (ie: the group Ben heads) were not part of the original mythology of the island as created by JJ and Damon. They are a new invention that the producers came up with in an effort to extend the show's life. As a result, some of what they are and what they are doing may not be consistent with what was originally the Bible of the show.

-Jason "not that I mind the invention of the Others-- they are a ton of fun!" Evans

GDT

04-12-2007, 12:14 PM

Quick question for someone who remembers details better than me. Wasn't Rousseau pregnant with Alex when she came to the island? How did she manage to give birth without dying?

I think "the problem begins at conception," as Juliette says. Therefore, maybe if you get pregnant before you reach the island, you're ok. So when Sun actually became pregnant becomes important (and after the crash, she and her husband weren't exactly close, I think)? Which is why I think Sun might be a red herring and Kate the real target. Juliette was trying to get close to her with the handcuffs...

BluDevilGal

04-12-2007, 12:32 PM

I think "the problem begins at conception," as Juliette says. Therefore, maybe if you get pregnant before you reach the island, you're ok.

So then the question remains as to whether what they did to Claire while she was pregnant was just an unnecessary precaution or if the treatment was necessary and only worked because she had conceived before coming to the island.

feldspar

04-12-2007, 12:35 PM

So then the question remains as to whether what they did to Claire while she was pregnant was just an unnecessary precaution or if the treatment was necessary and only worked because she had conceived before coming to the island.

My guess is that it was neither. Juliet was lying when she told that story last night. They wanted Claire's baby to study it. Whether for conception-related studies or for Walt-like pre-cog studies. Remember that Aaron is "special."

Point is, they wanted the baby. They don't give a damn about Claire.

gus

04-12-2007, 12:37 PM

So then the question remains as to whether what they did to Claire while she was pregnant was just an unnecessary precaution or if the treatment was necessary and only worked because she had conceived before coming to the island.

Juliette was lying about treating claire for her benefit. Else, why the implant that makes Claire sick?

edit- feldspar beat me to it

gus

04-12-2007, 12:38 PM

have not read all of this thread, but did anyone else notice Ben's room? I looked hard at the walls to see what he decorated with. I saw a ton of pictures of his "daughter" Alex. I wonder, how did Ben get these pictures taken and blown up and the such?

-Jason "is there a Fox photo booth on the island?" Evans

Those pics were there when Locke was in his house too. They clearly have access to the outside world- shouldn't be surprising that they get pictures made too.

A-Tex Devil

04-12-2007, 01:02 PM

I think the sub was never operational, and that Juliet did not arrive on the island by sub; she just "woke up" on the sub...

Jack was never leaving on the sub. Ben knew it and that's why Locke was allowed to blow it up...

I agree with this, that they get to the island some other way, although I do think it is operational to an extent (sneaking up on the sailboat earlier this year). There is some other way to get to/from the Island and the Sub was a security blanket for the less connected others like Juliette.

On another note, what about Ben possibly lying to Juliette when he told her that her sister's cancer had relapsed? I was surprised Juliette never thought of it that way. She assumed he lied about the fact they could cure it (until he proved otherwise), but I think he lied about the fact she had it again at all.

I'm really enjoying how they are connecting dots. And if they are backfilling at all (e.g. Ethan's shots in Claire while she slept, Ethan's "improvising"), they are doing a pretty good job of it. However --- I will be VERY pissed if they don't explain Ben's rationale for being so conniving all the time.

BlueDiablo

04-12-2007, 01:17 PM

I don't recall Rousseau ever saying that she gave birth on the island, only that her young daughter was taken from her.

Wait-- revision. According to Wikipedia, Rousseau was pregnant and had Alex on the island. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Rousseau

And according to Lostpedia, she was 7 months pregnant when she arrived on the island. http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Danielle_Rousseau

I think we may have found a place where the Lost mythology does not hold up to scruitiny. Evans

I think it still works. Juliet said something during last night's episode about the problem arising at the time of conception. Neither Claire nor Danielle conceived on the island. Claire, we find out, wasn't really sick at all, and gave birth to a healthy (so big for so young!) baby boy. Danielle gave girth to a baby girl on the island.

Incidentally, this spells trouble for Kate if her little bear-cage tryst with Sawyer happens to result in a pregnancy.

BlueDiablo

04-12-2007, 01:18 PM

Those pics were there when Locke was in his house too. They clearly have access to the outside world- shouldn't be surprising that they get pictures made too.

Karl developed them. When he's not developing x-rays, he's dabbling in print photography.

BluDevilGal

04-12-2007, 02:36 PM

I guess what I meant was wondering whether it was necessary for Ethan to inject Claire at all for the baby to be born. It seems likely that it wasn't since Rousseau delivered her baby fine. But I think you are right, Feldspar, that whatever they did it was in order to get the baby not because of any concern for Claire beyond her delivering a healthy child.

mr. synellinden

04-12-2007, 04:50 PM

... which is an excellent point about what Jack knows:

"At the beginning of the show when Sayid, Kate, Jack and Juliette were walking back to the camp Juliette asked when they were going to come around. Jack said something. THEN, she said "I don't think so. My people tied Sayid to a playground for three days and I dragged Kate into the forest, handcuffed her, and lied about it." I rewound it twice to listen again. Did Jack actually hear what she said? She just admitted that she didn't get left behind!!!! Did anyone else catch this!?"

If this is not a production error, Jack knows exactly what's going on.

BlueDiablo

04-12-2007, 06:07 PM

... which is an excellent point about what Jack knows:

"At the beginning of the show when Sayid, Kate, Jack and Juliette were walking back to the camp Juliette asked when they were going to come around. Jack said something. THEN, she said "I don't think so. My people tied Sayid to a playground for three days and I dragged Kate into the forest, handcuffed her, and lied about it." I rewound it twice to listen again. Did Jack actually hear what she said? She just admitted that she didn't get left behind!!!! Did anyone else catch this!?"

If this is not a production error, Jack knows exactly what's going on.

Not exactly. Juliet already confessed to Kate that she lied about being gassed, so she had to do the same with Jack to keep the story consistent. From the final scene with Ben, we knew that this was a pre-prepared plan B (fessing up to handcuffing herself to Kate), so her comments to Jack don't really tell us anything.

dukeblueyes

04-12-2007, 06:07 PM

I don't think Juliet admitted to anything other than being insecure and how awful the Others have treated the beachies. While, yes, she dragged Kate and tried to create a sisterly, "we're-in-this-thing-together!" kind of bond through matching metal bracelets, she could have done that AFTER being "left behind" (that phrase still reminds me of that christian book about the rapture). We know she did this as part of an evil plan because we see Ben hand her the gas mask, but to Jack, she could have woken up from being gassed and then created that situation on her own. Jack probably thinks it was her desperate attempt to insert herself into a group after being banished and branded by the Others.
By the way, when Juliet reveled to Kate that she had the handcuff key and turned on the fence, I was totally hoping Kate would just push her into the security fence and watch her ears bleed. Now THAT would have been a better ending to a catfight.

BCGroup

04-12-2007, 07:41 PM

I just forgot last night--didn't watch it, didn't record. Reading the posts is a bit fragmented--anyone willing to give me a short summary? Thanks.

BluDevilGal

04-12-2007, 07:45 PM

BCGroup- you could watch it on abc.com- or maybe someone else will take you up on the episode summary- sorry, I don't have time at the moment :-)

BCGroup

04-12-2007, 08:06 PM

I'll try it online, but a thanks for the person who sent me this link
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20034600,00.html

BuschDevil

04-13-2007, 01:59 AM

That is exactly what I thought at the time, Re: the sub.

A few (of many) questions I have???

-Was all that stuff about Juliet needing to be tranquelized because it was such a rough trip just a way to cover the destination, or could it really be something weird that those not used to it would get very ill or go nuts? Maybe a "time" related problem?

-Did anybody else notice: It says "Male" in the top right corner of the medical report that Ben showed Juliet when he said Rachel's cancer was back? I wonder if that was Ben's medical report. (which would mean that he knew he had cancer.)

-"HERARAT" Aviation, an anagram for Amelia EARHART?" The name on the wall in the airport when Juliet drank the juiced juice. Maybe the skeletal couple in the caves was Amelia & her Navigator?

-Is time extremely slowed down on the island, or sped up? They keep putting in little time references all the time... this episode had Ben saying "We've got some time" to Juliet after the plane crash, & Sawyer saying "We've got all the time in the world" to Juliet when she was retrieving the med case. Any others in this episode?

(bad pun warning) This show has so many layers it is easy to get lost in. (Not that I mind... great entertainment!)

gus

04-13-2007, 06:05 AM

-Did anybody else notice: It says "Male" in the top right corner of the medical report that Ben showed Juliet when he said Rachel's cancer was back? I wonder if that was Ben's medical report. (which would mean that he knew he had cancer.)

-"HERARAT" Aviation, an anagram for Amelia EARHART?" The name on the wall in the airport when Juliet drank the juiced juice. Maybe the skeletal couple in the caves was Amelia & her Navigator?

Good points! I don't know why I believed Ben when he said her cancer re-appeared! That seems like such an obvious answer for how he was able to "cure" her, but not himself.

Great spot on the anagram. I doubt they'll make adam and ever Ameila Earhart, but who knows...

johnb

04-13-2007, 08:47 AM

Herarat can be both Earhart and Her a rat. I agree with Jason: the emphasis on her being a bad guy makes it more likely that she is a good guy, at least for the moment.

I'm still not getting how Jack could have mellowed so dramatically towards the Others. Surely it wasn't simply that he became jealous of Sawyer and Kate. He has a huge anti-authority bias--he did turn in his father after all--and his playing ball with the bad guys is puzzling.

Everyone arrives through a storm, apparently, and it doesn't seem to storm on the island. I agree that the submarine could be a plant, though it is a pretty elaborate plant. Do we think that Michael & Son actually got back to civilization? Seems more likely that they are circling the island or something, but if so, shouldn't they have starved or come back? And if they did that, wouldn't Ben be seen as a liar? Has he definitely lied yet?

johnb

04-13-2007, 08:54 AM

It could also be Terra Ha, implying perhaps, "Earth? Ha!"

And/Or Herarat could obliquely refer to Ararat, which is where Noah's ark got stuck, a reference that would inform the fertility issue, the casting out of the unrighteous, the use of boats, the needing to expand the two by two thing, and the occasional polar bear.

mr. synellinden

04-13-2007, 09:51 AM

Not exactly. Juliet already confessed to Kate that she lied about being gassed, so she had to do the same with Jack to keep the story consistent. From the final scene with Ben, we knew that this was a pre-prepared plan B (fessing up to handcuffing herself to Kate), so her comments to Jack don't really tell us anything.

... so this doesn't really prove Jack is in on or knows anything about Juliet's true intentinos, but I still also wonder if there is more to Jack being so trusting of Juliet - letting her go to the jungle alone, letting her administer drugs to Claire, bringing her back in the first place, etc. Why does he trust her so much now (because he saw how much she wants to go home?) when he didn't when he was being held captive? If he trusted her so much, why did he agree to do the surgery in the first place?

JasonEvans

04-13-2007, 10:02 AM

Have we ever seen the sub in action? I know it was widely assumed that the Others used the sub to get to the sailboat that they took from Sun, Jin, and Sayid (when sun shot and killed that other woman, Colleen) but we never saw it then.

Clearly, when Juliet woke up in her flashback, she was in the sub but we have no way of knowing if the sub actually took her to the island. She had been drugged and has no idea how she got there. I think we can all assume that something about the way the Others get to the island is being hidden. Otherwise, why bother with the tranquilizer scene with Juliet?

I am betting that the sub is NOT how the Others get on an off the island.

Also, there is a school of thought that Locke did not destroy the sub. After all, he is dripping wet when he is on the dock when he blows up the sub. If he just got on the sub, planted his plastic explosives, and then got off then he would not get wet. He only gets wet if he takes the sub somewhere else (perhaps he sinks it in the lagoon?) and then swam back to the dock and set up the explosives so it would appear he was blowing the sub up.

-Jason "as for the issue of 'time' on the island, it feels like something is up, but I have not even begun to figure that out yet" Evans

-"HERARAT" Aviation, an anagram for Amelia EARHART?" The name on the wall in the airport when Juliet drank the juiced juice. Maybe the skeletal couple in the caves was Amelia & her Navigator?

Sometime last year, I had that thought that Amelia Earhart must have crashed on the Lost island, so that's amusing if the show is making a veiled reference to that idea- guess I'm not the only one that thought of it. :p

365Duke

04-13-2007, 12:04 PM

but the acting is so good on this show that I think that is what draws even more people in. I commented last night, after watching it again, to a friend about how good Ben is as an actor. I would not be surprised to see him nominated for a lot of awards for his extended role this year.

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/bios?pn=cast&name=Michael%20Emerson

Emerson has a quality about him that I think is rare in actors. In different ways, like Don Knotts facial expressions, you know almost what is coming before it is even said. I can't believe I just compared "Ben" to Don Knotts. Forgive me Barney RIP:( . Heck even Charles Logan had the same quality as much as I hated him:rolleyes: .

And what the heck is the significance of the "Downtown" song???

It has been everywhere, this is like the 5th or 6th time that we have gone to a seen with someone, all in different places, listening to that song. uh-oh maybe that has something to do with the time issue:eek:

MarineTwinsDad

04-14-2007, 12:27 PM

When talking with Locke, Ben told him that he was born on the island. Not only does this raise the question of survival of birth, but elongates the events taking place there. Was the island always afflicted with the strange magnetism. I wonder if thre were in fact an alien landing on the island (smoke creature) who was either drawn in by the magnetism, or who caused it.

An alternative would be the possiblility mentioned above, that the enclosed property includes a lake with specific features designed to generate human crises in order to study people. Ben's conversations with Julie indicates that women died in connection with pregnancy. To allow women to die seems cruel, but then again, who is to say they really died, but simply disappeared with the bodies supposedly buried.

Question: with the sub gone, doesn't that mean there is no way off the island, and explosion of the magnetic hatch caused all contact with the outside world to be nullified?

johnb

04-14-2007, 01:06 PM

If Noah's Ark is part of the mythology of the island (Air Herarat/Mount Ararat, the casting out of the unrighteous, boats, storms), then the Bible clearly says that no one was meant to "conceive" while on the boat. I'm thinking they have been told not to engage in carnal knowledge, and punishment on the island tends not to be subtle.

That part of Genesis also talks a lot about who begat whom, and we are certainly getting a lot of info about the sexual habits of the parents.

Jarhead

04-14-2007, 01:36 PM

What happened to that couple who were both bitten by spiders? I recall the last scene on that show was their burial. When the scene went to black as a shovel full of dirt was going in the grave, the womans eye opened. It was disclosed in that episode that the spider bites only caused a brief period of a death-like coma. So what gives? Did I miss an episode? :confused:

GDT

04-14-2007, 02:47 PM

What happened to that couple who were both bitten by spiders? I recall the last scene on that show was their burial. When the scene went to black as a shovel full of dirt was going in the grave, the womans eye opened. It was disclosed in that episode that the spider bites only caused a brief period of a death-like coma. So what gives? Did I miss an episode? :confused:

No, that was the last we saw of them, buried alive.

snowdenscold

04-15-2007, 08:59 AM

but I still also wonder if there is more to Jack being so trusting of Juliet - letting her go to the jungle alone,

This puzzled me as well. I couldn't believe a single person didn't go with her. Not only did Jack not seem to mind, but Kate just stood there and said nothing as well.

Still confused how they know all the details of everyone's lives - that Sawyer knowledge really boggled my mind.