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I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.

"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."

Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.

Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."

So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?

BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.

Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,Patrick

Kudos to you Patrick for making the effort to post your recordings.

Is it just me, or did all those single unisons have false beats? The real demonstration in those recordings is how the cybertuner could not mask the FB but you did a wonderful job by ear.

I know many musicians, but amongst them, I don't know a single one who prefers off unisons over clean ones.

I tuned a Yamaha once and the store owner called me back. The music teacher was complaining.

"What did you do to my piano. You have destroyed the tone."

Well, I did some voicing, actually just hammer mating, if I remember correctly. Yamahas are known for having harsh bright tone, but I didn't think I destroyed it! I explained voicing to her. She had no idea what is was.

Then it hit me. I asked her to show me which notes were "dead". Very nice unisons I thought, but I've been here before. I detuned the unisons. "Yes, that is much better. Thank you."

So, does she like a lively unison, or is she just used to it?

BTW, I did hear recently, some jazz being played on a piano with dead on unisons and it did strike me as a bit odd. I wanted to hear some swell and projection, for lack of a better word.

Do I like some swell in my jazz, or am I just used to it? I really don't know.

I take this question seriously. There is not quite all the fun of the fair when the fairground organ is in tune, the pipes lose some of their skirl, a steel band not quite so exotic.

All tuning departments have stories of sending a young tuner who is getting too cocky to a customer like yours, Mark, so that they have to go back and untuned it.

When I quickly check over lots of practice pianos for tuning, I know I can spot an out of tune unison in a piano that has reasonable tone regulation by running a very rapid chromatic scale. The out of tune unisons have less attack and make a ' black hole' in the ripple of notes.

That might be the reason, some pianists/listeners don't like to hear the attack. They also like the swelling you hear. If a wind or string player habitually played like that, they would be unemployable. The designers of digital keyboards are of questionable taste because their strings voices and brass sounds have either no attack or an amateurish fake attack and are all but unusable.

A skilful pianist can vary the attack in so many different ways. For the unisons to be out of tune takes away their ability to do this. There are tuners on this forum who will take me totask on any statement that refers to a pianists ability to make huge differences to piano tone. They have not heard a fine pianist on a fine piano. The situation simply doesnt exist in the vast majority of places.

Most of the better jazz clubs in London now have first quality pianos that are tuned as regularly as lesser concert hall pianos. Those that don't are obliged to hire in a first class instrument and tune it daily if they want to employ the current jazz stars. The days of having poor condition pianos in jazz venues and making them worse by spilling drinks in them and other abuses are long gone. Most don't drink any more when they're working. Some even have the piano mikes turned off when they encounter a really fine piano in a good room. I know this first hand, I am often the tuner involved. The piano cast off to the back of the stage is often a quite good piano or can be an equally fine make in poor condition.

It have been said before but dealing with the tone enveloppe have begin to be learned to apprentice tuner by Yamaha...

European tuners dont worry with theory of unison at that point, they tune it, point.

Then possibly because of the type of tone they have, they analyse how to push the enveloppe a bit more than it is necessary in European pianos.

Most of the tuners I learned with are not at all making difference between a tuning with intentional dealing with the attack and a tuning where the attack is just tuned by the high partials job.

As said G Weinreich with his coupled string motion description, the 3 strings cannot beat in phase and are immediately pushed in a waving motion with back and forth motions between coupling (high speed camera show that very well) between 2 of the 3 strings the 3 one being once with one, then the other to finish in a more or less shape vertically polorized (I am surprised this have not been evaluated yet)

So stability wise we can favor that shape , because if not it will install erratically by itself.

But we are in a level of precision where it is unecessary to talk of beats

I regret rxd but there is a confusion between the honky tonk effect and a good stabilisation of the attack in a nice clear shape very soon.

Tuners tend to tune the brightest tone possible which is good only on some pianos . You did tell me you never listen (analyze) somebody else tuning, you probably did not notice then the small differences in unison between tuners.

It is not as easy as the rest of the tuning is modifying the tone. It also is so much near of the ears discrimination level that even when plucking the wire it is not always perceived (but a tuner probably can hear that)

Btw unison can be in high stability with different styles and shape, some being more long lasting than others. At the end of the day that is just theory ... I never try to tune a piano with a beat unless I am asked for a honky tonk or a bar piano .

It is simply a game within the iH of the piano probably

Edited by Olek (01/27/1305:04 AM)

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning. I'm going to take my assistant out for breakfast.

Of course I don't listen to the work of others unless I have to in the course of my work

Last night, I had 15 mins for a post delivery check over a piano for a party where a famous singer was performing. I knew exactly which apprentice tuned it befor it came out of the basement. it was 90% fine. A quick couple of minor changes to the scale and morph a few too fast RBI's into the general tuning that would pass muster anywhere.

As I have said before, we don't go looking for trouble if a regular tuners work got so quirky that it made things tough for the rest of us, some texts would ensue and heads would roll.

Many years ago, one really good tuner got it into his head it was more 'artistic' to over sharpen the treble. The rest of us spent a few days taking down the last 20 notes of the treble on too many pianos. That tuner was taken off the important work for a while and retrained.

"black hole " is excellent ! See we where talking of energy from the start !Maximum CONTROL on the attack, is slightly different than maximum power for the attack (the attack is the engine the pianist use, it get tuned to some point when partials beats are supressed, but have to be regulated energy wise, so the pianist have the feel of the hammers under his fingers) if we empower the attack to the max we create a black hole also, but it is immediately after it, then the tone dissipates straight and soon.Sort of overpowering, take too much energy immediately . (will stay put for a few hours of playing, no more)

An unison that breaks create the opposite situation ...

Similar thing than you happened there with those "extra rolling basses" , used by one new guy in the pool.

Extra high stretch in the treble is a sort of trap , if you begin to listen too soon in there putting the note at the edge of the envelope, the ear accustomate and the tuner tune all the octaves with so fast beat it is unnoticed, confusing the sympathic resonance of the rest of the piano with the energetical effect of extra fast beating.

I have seen also "pure 5ths" in mefiums, creating so much stretch that the last octave up is to be tuned inverted to sound well (but I also heard that inverted high treble could be used in harpsichord tuning as sort of strech effect, may be when the instrument is poorly sounding ?)

I recognized sometime the tone signature some of us but mostly the younger tuners used a more straightforward tuning with more eveness in 3ds progression (ladder of 3ds based temp) while the ancient where using each a different temperament sequence, hence a different flavor.

As it could be categorized : a 3 ds based or a 5th based tuning. Only in theory they are similar, practically they provide an instrument thst sound more or less "old style"

3ds based tunings are appreciated because they give do much consistency that they are more resistive to time. Probably that the 5th based is more "musical" but it can be noticed that some chords are cleaner , when listened with tuner ears.I like the robustness of good FBI progression but if some 5th ask for something else I will favor the 5th. Rainy day but my back is back so back to work !

Edited by Olek (01/27/1305:58 AM)

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Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again

I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,

Why did you think this needed to be addressed by you? It didn't... It was done and over with.

We are not speaking Russian in here for pete's sake. I would not dream of going to a Japanese speaking website not knowing their language very well and then proceed to tell them to stop saying what I might think were "naughty words" in my OWN language which has nothing to do with their language if I couldn't hardly even speak Japanese like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it. That would be offensive to them in their own language.

We are speaking in American English as this is, an American English speaking website. Therefore, the word crap in American English is NOT a bad word. Geez.

If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.

Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practiceRegards,Max

like Max can barely speak and understand English. I would never assume what the word meant let alone attempt to correct them on it. If you want to help Max help him. But, leave me out of it and stick to the point of tuning.

Jerry Groot, I agree it is not necessary do pedaling our attention on this "word". But Max is very poorly understood meaning in English. He absolutely does not speak a word of English. However, a help advices of forum members is a reality. It really helps him in his work. Many musicians county town of Uralsk positive dynamics of growth in the tuning of Max now. This positive result of the existence of this forum

Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practiceRegards,Max

Max. There are many things that need attention. The first 2-3 things I will address are issues of pure logic.

I notice you are back to the lever so let's do lever.

If you hold the lever at 9 or10 o'clock, the flagpoling occurs in line with the string. This means that if you merely pull the note up to pitch and call it good, you have left some flagpoling in the pin and, because it is in line with the string, the pitch will go all the way back as the pin spring back.

In order to leave the pin stable, you will have to pull it a lot above pitch and then let the pitch down until it is in tune. Doing this will create instability because of the friction around the pressure bar. An experienced tuner could both see and hear this happening in the string you were attempting to tune in your last video.

Now. Think about it. If you held the lever in line with the string, the flagpoling would be at 90 degrees to the string and will have far less effect on the pitch of the string so that when the pin sPring back from being pulled out of line, it will not be in line with the pull of the string and have very little, if any effect on its pitch.

This will make all your tuning much easier and you will not have to move the pin nearly as much. It's only logic. By holing the lever in line with the string you are taking flagpoling out of the equation. Or, to put it another way, You are neutralising the effect of flagpoling on the pitch.

The second point is that you are attempting to tune a 3rd string to two other strings that are out of tune with themselves. Again, logic that takes no specialised knowledge of pianos tells you that a good unison will never happen. Before you can tune the third string, you have to be absolutely certain that the first two strings are in tune with each other and that they stay in tune with each other while you tune the third string.

These two basic points are interdependent.

It is all very basic logic. I hope my attempt at explaining this will help.

When I see you doing these two things, I will be able to help you further.

You have specifically asked my help. I need to see, in your next video, the lever being held in line with the string and you tuning all three strings of a unison in the middle of the piano. No talking, no playing, I haven't time nor interest to wade through that. Only then can I take you through the next step.

Quite so, Isaac. Quite so but we are both ( hopefully) writing about giving the pianist maximum control over the attack and taking out the ' black holes', (as one fine pianist so aptly describes them) by tuning and then voicing.

None of this is helping Max at this stage but I really don't feel like working this morning.

Thank,rxd.I dare to hope that the latest video of Max inspires some optimism in his attempt to use your advice in practiceRegards,Max

Only then can I take you through the next step.

Thank rxd for your support, I shall definitely do shoot the next video. Just not possible to do so in the near future. I have a lot of training going into your advice to do it right. I do not have cameras. I shall read your message, to understand the meaning of your explanation. Let me repeat the question in the last video is a positive change? Regards, Max

You are stuck in one place. This is because you are clinging to your homespun philosophies, each of which misses out a few vital parameters that make what you say make no sense. You are not alone in this aspect on this forum.

There are hundreds of years of cumulative experience genuinely trying to help you on this forum. There are others whose sole motive seems to be to show how clever they are (or not) and only confuse the issue.

I tell you how to use the tool you have chosen in one video then the next video shows you using another tool. I'm trying to work 'with' you here, letting you have your own direction and nudging you back on to the path when you stray. There are many paths but some of them have more obstacles than others.

Left to your own devices, you, like most novices, will, with elegant inevitably, revert to doing it the hard way.

I have given you what i consider to be the next appropriate step. With the pins on your piano being not too tight, you shouldn't have much trouble.

Practice practIce practice. Then you should have a few questions for us as you discover what we are trying to tell you to be true.

Max, don't worry about temperament now. It's good news that you have only two things to focus on now: you need to use the temperament strip and mutes so that you can get good unisons (set the middle string in tune, then tune a second string to that, with the 3rd string muted, then finally, tune the 3rd string to the pair that is tuned.), and you need to put the lever on the pin at the correct angle as RXD said, to reduce flag-poling and increase stability of your tuning. Don't worry about anything else right now, that's for later. I think people will be happy to help you with other questions if you do these two things first. Best wishes.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.

Point taken. I have edited my post to remove any possible confusion. I was surprised to hear that you are concerned about how our words are translated though, because your posts frequently use unusual words which translators would have considerable problems with. Usually when you are showing frustration!

Am I a tuner? Well, I'm not a professional tuner, but I tune half a dozen pianos regularly, including my own. I use the standard methods you pros describe and I am very exacting with my standards. My unisons are very good and very stable. I won't pretend to be a master of temperaments however. I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way, which I feel some of you techs struggle with at times - especially when they are understandably frustrated by the poor communication and advice not being heeded.

This goes through an automatic translator so choice of words is important.Using the lever at the right angle can be confusing. We're trying to stop Max using the lever at an angle to the strings. In fact we are asking for no right angle to the strings but simply in line with them.

Using the lever in line with the strings does not reduce flagpoling, it merely redirects it to where it has less effect on the pitch. We can talk about reducing flagpoling with thumb pressure later. These are not tight pins, remember.

Your statement " never tune a unison with three strings ringing" is strange. Are you a tuner? An unison can only be judged by what it sounds like with all three strings ringing. We can talk about coupling later, if that's what you mean. For now, those of us who want to help Max need to hear at least one completed simple three string unison. Max is already guessing at unisons.

I am not trying to control this thread but simply asking for care in not confusing the issues. The situation is already plagued with translation difficulties. Modern translators are amazing but still miss some subtleties of the languages.

I only joined in here to encourage Max and to try to speak in a simpler clearer way,