I find it amazing that this issue cannot be discussed without placing the participants in a box.

That is specious reasoning.

Are you saying context is a box? Are you saying we could be more objective by decontextualizing Iran's threat to Israel???

That may be OK for you - but IF YOU WERE THREATENED - you would want to know everything about the party that is threatening you.

The box they live in is relevant. What is irrelevant is removing the box and speaking about Iran's threat to Israel as if religion had nothing to do
with it.

Until some evidence is presented that indicates some reasonable degree of confidence that Iran is indeed working toward nuclear weaponry, I will
accept that they are not. I will also support, in the spirit of Ronald Reagan, "trust but verify".

The degree of their abrasive rhetoric towards Israel warrants action, regardless of any imagined lack of evidence.

Iran's nuclear facilities are underground, in areas where IAEA inspectors have not been allowed to visit. It is nothing but insanity to hold to the
side of caution when the consequences are apocalyptic for Israel.

Again, you may not care, as you don't seem to have tender feelings for Israel, but for Israeli's and for rational human beings who recognize the level
of threat - and the dire consequences - it is better to err by attacking their nuclear facilities than to squander time and allow Iran to eliminate
the "zionist enemy", most likely through transporting a Nuke to Hezbollah.

Furthermore, a nation which speaks with such bellicosity against another nation should NOT BE ALLOWED, period, to pursue nuclear technology. And if
they do, it's imperative that it be done with the full oversight of the IAEA - which has not been granted.

Just as I will not consider one of darker skin a "different breed of human" or one of a different sexual persuasion a "different breed of human". Is
that what this is all about? Racism? Fear of those who are different?

That's a low blow. You know full well that my comments were in regard to their intellectual-spiritual paradigm, and not the color of their skin. They
are a different breed in their RELATIONSHIP with reality; nothing at all to do with skin color.

The fact that you took the conversation there shows me what kind of person you are.

Article 1, Section 1 states that the fuel for the research reactor will be supplied by the United States, in the amounts of 5585 g of 93% U-235, 4 g
of 90% U-235, and 112 g plutonium. That's weapons-grade HEU, much greater than the 20% Iran has been producing.

Might want to check those facts. Iran does indeed have a research reactor that uses ~20% LEU.

The program in questions was / is called atoms for peace. It was the program I referred to that was setup with the cooperation of the US with the UN
back in the day to assist countries in developing nuclear energy programs.

As for supplying Iran you are trying to make it into something it is not. If you remeber one of the proposlas floated to Iran was to have enrichment
done by another country and then sent back to Iran. That was suggested to allow Iran to keep their program, which they are entitled to, without the
problem of enrichment and ambiguity.

The material supplied is accounted for and designated, making it easy to track. Irans enrichment program is not easy to track because they stonewall
the UN. Secondly Highly Enriched Uranium has a minimum 20% threshhold to be considered highly enriched. The enrichment ability is the problem, and
has always been the problem. Secondly without a trigger you have nothing but a dirty bomb. The trigger was the issue behind the UN's request to access
one of the military locations where the testing was supposedly taking place. That request has been denied by Iran several times now and the site is
being cleaned up.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Are you honestly saying that introducing a computer virus into another country's facilities by direct entry (stuxnet was not transmitted over a
network) in order to sabotage those facilities is acceptable if there are allegations of treaty violations?

Seriously... you are not defending that!

As a matter of fact I am... If you think Iran does not engage in similar actions towards other countries then you are just not paying attention.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
OK, let's look at this from violations of the NPT. Give me specific examples of violations.

NPT / IAEA requirements -
* - Failure to report facilities to the UN that are connected to their nuclear program.
* - Refusal to allow inspectors into certain facilities linked to their program.
* - Unable to account for missing uranium.
* - Enriching uranium at levels not declared (more than 20%).
* - Iran has been caught purchasing items that are dual use that can be used in a nuclear weapons program.
* - Failure to allow UN inspectors access to scientists invilved in the program.
* - Iran approaching businesses in Norway to acquire missile technology.
* - Iran has been caught working with the North Koreans.
* - Iran has been caught using 3rd parties to acquire material for their program that is prohibited.
* - Iran has been caught by the UN with software that allows computer testing of detonation designs for nuclear weapons.

etc etc etc etc.......

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Are you suggesting US disarmament?

Absolutely

Originally posted by TheRedneck
If I had the capital, I have the ability to enrich to weapons-grade HEU! Every nation on the planet has the ability... the question is
not one of ability, but one of intent. And the rhetoric is coming from both sides, with no evidence Iran is proceeding in that direction.

A nation must have the ability to enrich uranium and the higher you go the more refined the process needed. Irans ability to enrich to higher levels
and their constant threats towards Israels existence pretty clearly spells out their intent.

Again no one is threatening to wipe Iran off the map. Israels concern is the nuclear program. So no the rhetoric is not coming from both sides. The
issue is Irans ability to construct a nuclear weapon - always has been and always will be until they comply.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I would be careful making such a statement. People are capable of more than others think quite often.

The only way for Iran to go down that road is if they are receiving outside assistance for their program. Also, and I think you may have missed this
part, is the prohibition to use a civilian nuclear program for military purpose. The development of nuclear reactors for their naval ships would be
using their civilian program for military application.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
False.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has insisted that Israel would take action against Iran even if Washington objected.

Speaking to the Knesset last Wednesday, Netanyahu said that a key aim of his talks with US President Barack Obama had been to have Israel’s right to
launch a military operation against Iran if it sees fit, acknowledged.

Took me a good 15 seconds to find that, and it was the first link on the first of many pages of results. It is one thing to express concern about a
possibility of Iranian nukes, but quite another to dismiss so much evidence to convict them of doing the deed.

Right and once again you seemed to have ignored the comment and missed the point. Israel has NOT threatened to wipe Iran off the map. Iran HAS
threatended to wipe Israel off the map. When discussing Iran the topic has always been around attacking their nuclear program and sites. Iran when
discussing Irael wants them gone - period.

So, again, Iran is the one making threats to wwipe Israel out. Israel is stating they will attack their nuclear sites. A HUGE diffrerence and im not
sure why you are ignoring that part.

Also - I have seen people, including the Iranian government, try to make a distinction between Israel and zionists / israeli government. The problem
with that is Iran does not officaly recognize ISrael as a nation, which means there is no legitimate government in Israel in Irans eyes, which means
their claims of distinction are based on nothing more than word play.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Again, if you can show me evidence - hard, reliable evidence - that indicates Iran is developing nuclear weaponry, I will support the sanctions and
even military intervention if warranted. I will not support such based on innuendo, questionable claims (many which have proved false), and
hand-wringing over "what if".

Again please read the info and my posts. The concern is Irans ability to produce a nuclear weapon. Its always been the issue,
which revolves around enrichment levels and resources available to put one together. Those concerns stem from Irans constant threats coupled with
their failure to abide by a treaty they signed.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I honestly don't know how to reply to that... the very concept of demanding an end to sovereign privacy and deeming resistance as evidence of
wrongdoing is so alien to me.

Iran has every right to keep their secrets secret. The point you are missing is they gave up part of that secrecy and sovereignty when they opted to
join / sign the NPT / IAEA. The "demands" being made on Iran come from their failure to follow the treaty. If Iran does not want to play by the rules,
then they should withdraw.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
They signed the NPT of their own free will. Israel has not. From a truly objective standpoint, which appears more guilty, he who agrees to the
contract but then questions specifics in it, or he who refuses the contract flat out?

Werent you the one that just made the argument resitance doesnt mean wrong doing? Israel has never confirmed they have nuclear weapons. Iran, like
Israel, has the option to join the IAEA / NPT. Iran, unlike Israel, opted to join and as such agreed to the conditions of the treaty.

If Israel does not have nuclear weapons then there is nothing to join now is there? If you come back at me with the "we all know better" or
"intelligence" etc then the exact same standard applies to Iran.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I will not comment on your interpretation of the religious aspects, because that is beyond my limited understanding of the subject at this time. I can
say your interpretation is not the only one I have heard.

If you wish to understand this situation and how the parties justify their actions then may I suggest you do some research into the religious realm.
Irans government, actions, way of life all are governed by their faith. To understand their faith allows a person to better see how they come to their
decisions and why they do what they do.

I am saying that it appears one must either be pro-US/Israel and anti-Iran, or pro-Iran and anti-US/Israel. I am neither. I love my country, and I
pray for the peace of Israel; I simply do not agree with the present US allegations against Iran nor do I accept that Israel is faultless in this
recent example of human aggression.

Nor do I presume Iran to be faultless.

The degree of their abrasive rhetoric towards Israel warrants action, regardless of any imagined lack of evidence.

Imagined lack of evidence? If evidence exists, please present it and remove any imagined lack.

Iran's nuclear facilities are underground, in areas where IAEA inspectors have not been allowed to visit.

Again I ask for evidence. Which sites have been deemed to be these secret underground facilities? When did the IAEA ask for access and when was it
denied or granted? What evidence has been used to suspect these underground sites?

These are not improper questions.

Again, you may not care, as you don't seem to have tender feelings for Israel, but for Israeli's and for rational human beings who recognize
the level of threat - and the dire consequences - it is better to err by attacking their nuclear facilities than to squander time and allow Iran to
eliminate the "zionist enemy", most likely through transporting a Nuke to Hezbollah.

Again with the box.

I have the ability to care about more than one group of people. I have the ability to analyze what is being said and what is being done in order to
determine if agendas are just or not. I want peace in Israel; I want all three Abrahamic religions to have free access to their religious sites; I
want a world free of terrorism and tyranny. So far all I have heard are calls for support of Israeli military action because Iran might make a nuke
and might wipe out Israel. That does not further any of my stated goals.

And yes, I realize Israel could not survive a single strike, nor would they have enough notice to get off a retaliatory strike. Balance of power does
not work in this situation. But neither does war, and war is where this is heading. Israel strikes Iran; Iran strikes back; The US backs Israel;
Russia and China back Iran; Britain backs the US; most of Europe backs the US....

The cry after the invasion of Iraq was that we overthrew a government suspected of having biological and chemical weapons when in reality they did not
(although I still am not 100% convinced of that). How more wrong will it be if we start WWIII over a claim of nukes then find none?

Furthermore, a nation which speaks with such bellicosity against another nation should NOT BE ALLOWED, period, to pursue nuclear
technology.

Fine. may I suggest we also include Israel based on their threats of preemptive strike and their refusal to even sign the NPT?

That's a low blow.

The low blow was yours. I did not make the statement; I expressed my disgust at it.

The fact that you took the conversation there shows me what kind of person you are.

I did not take the conversation anywhere; you made the statement.

But yes, it does show what kind of person I am, that I do not judge others based on what "breed of human" they are. Thank you for pointing that
out.

Personally, I think we have too many countries with nukes. One more, whoever that might be, is too many.

I disagree on this, i don't think it's right that certain nations can pull the strings of the entire planet just because they have nuclear arms.

Either let everybody build a nuclear warhead, or nobody has them. It seems that nations who own nuclear arsenals are the aggressors in international
conflict, even if they never hint towards publicly using them in an attack.

You look at the US, Israel and the UK. They all own nuclear arsenals, and yet they are trying to corner Iran for "allegedly" trying to build one of
their own. What do the 3 aggresors have in common? Nuclear arsenals.

The way i see things, is that if you build a nuclear bomb, you join the club of international bullies. They will almost always agree with each other
and torment countries without them, because they know they have the "nuke" card to play as insurance.

Israel has never confirmed they possess nuclear weapons. As I have stated before if people are going to say Israel does, which is based on other
countries intelligence reports, then they must accept the intelligence reports on Iran and their program.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Wikileaks did break the law. They received and disseminated classified information. Its against the law for a media outlet to report classified
information. The Pentagon papers issue is what people cite yet they dont bother to read / understand the result of that case.

Is it legal for the the US government to torture, rape, and murder civilians? Wikileaks did not break the law in any shape or form. If documents are
passed to an organization of journalists, then they can legally publish them if the said material is a matter of national security.

The national security that has been breached is the coverup of torture, rape, and murder of civilians throughout illegal wars. this comes back to
threaten the general public of the USA. Publishing information that exposes lies is not a crime.

Secondly Pvt. Manning has been charged and is currently going through the legal process. Something that is not extended to individuals in
Iran.

You can say that about Iran's legal system, i can say that about the US legal system. He is not being given a fair trial at all. But sure, manning
did break his military contract if he is the leaker, it doesn't matter if he did, he has exposed corruption and lies which are a threat to the
security of the US public.

Actually they do have freedom of the press. Constantly repeating they dont over and over does not make it true.

Constantly repeating "Wikileaks did break the law." does not make it true either. You cannot claim somebody broke the law if you do not know law
yourself.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
Is it legal for the the US government to torture, rape, and murder civilians? Wikileaks did not break the law in any shape or form. If documents are
passed to an organization of journalists, then they can legally publish them if the said material is a matter of national security.

Rape no, murder of civilians no and torture is a subjective term. While the US is a signatory to the CAT, it does not override the Constitution.
Foreign treaties become a part of the US federal body of law and as such can be challeneged / reviewed / ruled on by the courts.

Wikileaks did violte US law by receiving and then disseminating classified US documents. Just because you dont agree with the law doest mean its
invalid.

Secondly media outlets in the US can be held accountible for publishing classified information. The first amendment protects media outlets however it
does not grant them immunity when they break the law. The Pentagon papers issue actually resulted in the 2 journalists being charged. A porocedureal
error by the PA resulted in the charges being dismissed and he never refiled.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
The national security that has been breached is the coverup of torture, rape, and murder of civilians throughout illegal wars. this comes back to
threaten the general public of the USA. Publishing information that exposes lies is not a crime.

Please cite which war is illegal and how.
Death of civilians (anyone actually) during a time of war is inevitable, even more so when the enemy the US is fighting has no issues using schools,
hospitals and religious facilities along with launching attacks while in heavily populated centers.

Publishing information that exposes criminal activity is acceptable. However please explain to us how every single item wikileaks has released about
the US documents criminal activity. A whistle blower is one who exposes criminal actions. A person who releases classified information when there is
no crime contained in the info is not a whistle blower - they are a criminal.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
You can say that about Iran's legal system, i can say that about the US legal system. He is not being given a fair trial at all. But sure, manning
did break his military contract if he is the leaker, it doesn't matter if he did, he has exposed corruption and lies which are a threat to the
security of the US public.

It does matter a great deal. He is being given a fair trial. People who are not familiar with the military justice system constantly state that. When
you join the military, which is voluntary, its explained to you that you give up / have restrictions placed on your rights.

Assange and wikileaks are tied into the manning part because of how wikileaks obtained the information. While manning contacted them first, its been
reported that assange suipplied manning with software that allowed him to encrpyt and send out the classified information. The software also allowed
those emails to bypass the filters in place to prevent just what occured.

If assange provided the software he is just as much involved as manning is.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
Constantly repeating "Wikileaks did break the law." does not make it true either. You cannot claim somebody broke the law if you do not know law
yourself.

I do know the law actually however I dont think you do. Go do some research and then come back.

I disagree on this, i don't think it's right that certain nations can pull the strings of the entire planet just because they have nuclear
arms.

That would be true if you didn't have opposed countries with nukes.

Using that logic, India could have gotten away with pushing Pakistan to the wall, and they didn't. And neither did Pakistan payback when they
achieved nuclear capability.

Political power gained from having nuclear weapons is often overestimated.

Case in point? North Korea. Having a nuke made them isolated, a problem that nobody cares about as long as they just make noise.

Either let everybody build a nuclear warhead, or nobody has them. It seems that nations who own nuclear arsenals are the aggressors in
international conflict, even if they never hint towards publicly using them in an attack.

Everyone having a nuke would mean that it's relevence becomes close to 0, which means that the fear factor from such weapon stops to have any effect.
It then becomes a ticking clock until the opportunity to use one arrives, and everyone does the same with fear of being left behind in the
destruction.

The theory of nobody having them is way better. That's what the NPT exists for, actually. Who would have guessed?

You look at the US, Israel and the UK. They all own nuclear arsenals, and yet they are trying to corner Iran for "allegedly" trying to build
one of their own. What do the 3 aggresors have in common? Nuclear arsenals.

They have much more in common than just nuclear arsenals. Two of them belong to NATO, so already 2/3 of your argument loses strength. The remaining
1/3 - Israel - has a very credible self-preservation feeling about the issue. We can't be blind to the realities of the world. The risk, or threat -
if you prefer- does exist. Iran has made it clear that they dislike Israel existence, wether or not people enjoy debating semantics over the
particular statements.

And by the way, why do you call them aggressors? What was the aggression that labelled them as such?

The way i see things, is that if you build a nuclear bomb, you join the club of international bullies. They will almost always agree with each
other and torment countries without them, because they know they have the "nuke" card to play as insurance

Again, nuclear political power is often overestimated. There is a reason why both URSS and U.S. decided to step down from the path they were
leading.

When/If nuclear weapons lose credibility or become too mundane, the chance of one being used is very high. Too high for comfort. If two opposed
countries feel the need to stop the MAD philosophy, you can imagine what kind of nightmares we would be faced if more joined this group.

It's as bad as it should get. Especially if it's a country with a clear objective in mind that is hostile in nature.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Rape no, murder of civilians no and torture is a subjective term.

You are in denial.

Wikileaks did violte US law by receiving and then disseminating classified US documents. Just because you dont agree with the law doest mean its
invalid.

Since when is Wikileaks subject to US law? They are not based in the US. This is more international police rhetoric. And just because you don't agree
with something doesn't mean it is wrong either... that is hypocritical.

Secondly media outlets in the US can be held accountible for publishing classified information. The first amendment protects media outlets however it
does not grant them immunity when they break the law. The Pentagon papers issue actually resulted in the 2 journalists being charged. A porocedureal
error by the PA resulted in the charges being dismissed and he never refiled.

2 journalists being charged, tell me why goons in the US have been calling for assange's execution, what is the difference to the pentagon papers? The
fact that the amount of corruption and lies that have been exposed make the US government look like a joke. Again, tell me which law was broken. You
are repeatedly saying they broke laws, yet you do not seem to even know which one was broken. Media publishes classified information all the day,
almost on a daily basis.

Please cite which war is illegal and how.
Death of civilians (anyone actually) during a time of war is inevitable, even more so when the enemy the US is fighting has no issues using schools,
hospitals and religious facilities along with launching attacks while in heavily populated centers.

Look at history for crying out loud. Every war the US has been involved in is illegal. No international treaties are ever upheld when it comes to the
US. And no, death of civilians is not inevitable, it only happens when the aggressor doesn't give a ****. Genocide is how the US was founded, and
genocide is what it repeatedly does to this day. Also, you claim hospitals and religious facilities are used for attacks? Do you forget that people
using these sites are unaffiliated with the people of the country from an attacking point of view, and are meerley protecting themselves from invaders
(the US) who are destroying their country. The amount of times US forces have attacked these sites, hospitals etc, without actually killing a so
called "terrorist" is ridiculous.

You are simply in denial.

Publishing information that exposes criminal activity is acceptable. However please explain to us how every single item wikileaks has released about
the US documents criminal activity. A whistle blower is one who exposes criminal actions. A person who releases classified information when there is
no crime contained in the info is not a whistle blower - they are a criminal.

How about MURDER, TORTURE, BRIBERY, is that legal where you come from? Have you even bothered reading any of the cables? I really doubt you have and
you sound to me as if you are one of the many people who suck up what Fox News tells you.

It does matter a great deal. He is being given a fair trial. People who are not familiar with the military justice system constantly state that. When
you join the military, which is voluntary, its explained to you that you give up / have restrictions placed on your rights.

No he is not. The lawyers for manning stated that the military judge is biased, they asked for a new judge, and it was turned down. How is that
fair.

Assange and wikileaks are tied into the manning part because of how wikileaks obtained the information. While manning contacted them first, its been
reported that assange suipplied manning with software that allowed him to encrpyt and send out the classified information. The software also allowed
those emails to bypass the filters in place to prevent just what occured.

If assange provided the software he is just as much involved as manning is.

Absolute rubbish.

I do know the law actually however I dont think you do. Go do some research and then come back.

No you do not. You very clearly do not.

You are sat in your highhorse thinking you are being patriotic for defending a nation that is run by a corrupt government who engages in murder,
torture, rape, bribery and threats to innocent people while starting illegal wars throughout the last century. That is not very patriotic. I think the
fact here is that you need to do research about what your own government is doing, wake up for crying out loud.

Accepting everything your government claims in public as fact is stupid. Stop being stupid, please.

As for supplying Iran you are trying to make it into something it is not.

Not really. My point was simply that the US has a habit of playing both ends against the middle, not that their actions of supplying the reactor or
fuel for it were improper.

The action was taken under the reign of Reza Shah, who was friendly to the US petroleum and banking interests but who was despised by the majority of
Iranians. Support was withdrawn when the Shah was ousted, instead of using diplomatic means to accept a ruling body that had the support of the
population.

As a matter of fact I am... If you think Iran does not engage in similar actions towards other countries then you are just not paying
attention.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I have said many times that I do not find Iran faultless in this. I do not condone their actions during our invasion of Iraq, I do not support the
invasion of Iraq, I do not support Iran's statements against Israel, I do not support Israel's threats toward Iran, and I do not support the
development or use of stuxnet.

None of these things further the goal of Middle Eastern stability.

NPT / IAEA requirements -

Quite a list. Let's take them one at a time:

Failure to report facilities to the UN that are connected to their nuclear program.

Which facilities at which times? I would appreciate references to UN or IAEA documentation.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Are you suggesting US disarmament?

Absolutely

I would disagree, but you get kudos for being consistent.

A nation must have the ability to enrich uranium and the higher you go the more refined the process needed. Irans ability to enrich to higher
levels and their constant threats towards Israels existence pretty clearly spells out their intent.

Actually, since enrichment entails removal of U-238 and higher enrichment means less needs to be removed, enrichment gets easier as enrichment goes
higher. That is why I once based my opposition to Iran's actions on the enrichment levels attained. My change in heart is based on the fact they have
not enriched any appreciable amount past the 20% level, despite having the ability to do so.

Again no one is threatening to wipe Iran off the map.

Not openly.

The only way for Iran to go down that road is if they are receiving outside assistance for their program. Also, and I think you may have missed
this part, is the prohibition to use a civilian nuclear program for military purpose. The development of nuclear reactors for their naval ships would
be using their civilian program for military application.

And again, they have not carried through on their threat, a threat made in response to a threat of increased sanctions. Tit-for-tat.

So, again, Iran is the one making threats to wwipe Israel out. Israel is stating they will attack their nuclear sites. A HUGE diffrerence and
im not sure why you are ignoring that part.

I'm not ignoring it, but Israel has followed through with their threats against other countries (many times with reason, granted) while Iran has not
launched a single missile toward another country (discounting during an open declaration of war against an invading Iraq). I also should mention one
other point that just came to me: The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, one of the holiest sites in Islam, is located in Jerusalem, Israel. A
nuclear attack would destroy it as well.

In short, I do not see Iran's threats as credible. I do see Israel's threats as credible.

The concern is Irans ability to produce a nuclear weapon.

Understand, please... Iran has had the ability to enrich HEU since their first successful enrichment of LEU. Iran has had high explosives for a very
long time. Thus, Iran has had the ability to produce a nuclear warhead. Delivery may be another issue; I not know what their level of technology is
regarding missile guidance and rocketry. But the weapon is much easier to build than you seem to believe.

What they apparently have not done is to refine any enriched uranium into machinable metal for inclusion in a bomb or developed a plutonium
source. The former is a requirement for a nuclear detonation; the latter a requirement for production of an implosion-type device consistent with
their EBW detonators.

Iran has every right to keep their secrets secret. The point you are missing is they gave up part of that secrecy and sovereignty when they
opted to join / sign the NPT / IAEA. The "demands" being made on Iran come from their failure to follow the treaty. If Iran does not want to play by
the rules, then they should withdraw.

I agree. But if they did withdraw from the treaty, how many would treat that as an admission they have or intend to build nukes and call for an
all-out pre-emptive attack?

Werent you the one that just made the argument resitance doesnt mean wrong doing?

Yep, and I stand by that. I also believe that if one side of an argument has restrictions, the other side should as well.

So take your pick: both have the right to keep national security secrets (my preference), or both have to open all doors to the IAEA.

If you wish to understand this situation and how the parties justify their actions then may I suggest you do some research into the religious
realm.

Actually, I am doing just that. And the deeper I dig, the more I question the official Western story.

I can not help but think that if a BIG BOMB did go off in a Israeli center, you would be here justifying the act for reasons that do not even
add up.

Back in the box.

I repeat: I am not anti-Israel! I simply am not anti-Iran either. No, sir, I would not be 'justifying' a bomb in any Israeli center; I would
support going to their aid if they were attacked. Just because I do not agree with blindly following whatever Bush/Obama/Netanyahu says does not by
itself define my loyalties.

On the other hand, if Iran were turned into a sea of glass and we were to discover that they had no nuclear weapons, would you just shrug that off and
say "Well, they deserved it for something else"?

Looks like it's all set for Israel to be surrounded, the coming of the Mahdi and of Christ. Perhaps they are all working towards a common goal here,
positioning all the pieces for the prophecies to come true?

I have seen more good and social change made by being non-violent and opposing violence peacefully, than by reaching for a bigger stick.

I'm no war-monger but I think it's fair to say that wars have ended more than one atrocity that never would have been ended by peaceful resistance.

That philosophy of "if you have a gun, and I have a gun, then we are both going to respect each-other" didn't work all that well during the Cold
War.

Actually, it seems to have worked fairly well. While there were a few proxy conflicts, the threat of mutually assured destruction prevented a straight
up war between the two sides that still has not occurred.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
Gone way off topic from what this thread was about,....

That happens when you allow your own ignorance to get in the way of actual learning.

As for the rest of your opinion I would suggest you learn the laws and understand how your government works before making more claims that arent
supported by anything but your paranoia. Feel free to choose one of the many threads on assange and wikileaks and let me know. I can school you in
those threads instead of driving this one any further off topic by constantly correcting your inability to use logic, facts and reason.

.As for the topic at hand - Iran and their nuclear program, I will let GarrusVasNormandy continue to school you on the topic.

This is one of the better discussion I have been invovled in so thank you for that.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Not really. My point was simply that the US has a habit of playing both ends against the middle, not that their actions of supplying the reactor or
fuel for it were improper.

The action was taken under the reign of Reza Shah, who was friendly to the US petroleum and banking interests but who was despised by the majority of
Iranians. Support was withdrawn when the Shah was ousted, instead of using diplomatic means to accept a ruling body that had the support of the
population.

We did not force Iran to develop a nuclear program - Either then or now.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Two wrongs do not make a right.

War is wrong... Was it right for the US to be involved in WWII? Was it right for the Nazis to try and conquer the world?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I have said many times that I do not find Iran faultless in this. I do not condone their actions during our invasion of Iraq, I do not support the
invasion of Iraq, I do not support Iran's statements against Israel, I do not support Israel's threats toward Iran, and I do not support the
development or use of stuxnet.

None of these things further the goal of Middle Eastern stability.

And not doing anything doesnt add to the stability either.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Which facilities at which times? I would appreciate references to UN or IAEA documentation.

The Qom's facility for enrichment.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I would disagree, but you get kudos for being consistent.

Nuclear weapons are a no win item for either side.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Actually, since enrichment entails removal of U-238 and higher enrichment means less needs to be removed, enrichment gets easier as enrichment goes
higher. That is why I once based my opposition to Iran's actions on the enrichment levels attained. My change in heart is based on the fact they have
not enriched any appreciable amount past the 20% level, despite having the ability to do so.

The ability to do so is key.
Secondly UN inspectors have come across higher levels that are explained away as being a fluke or anomoly. When does it stop becoming an anomoly and
become an effort not being reported?

Why have the ability to enirch to higher levels that are not needed unless you are running a nuclear weapons program?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Not openly.

Nor in private.. The issue revolves around their nuclear program where as Iran has very publicly and openly called for the elimination of Israel.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
And again, they have not carried through on their threat, a threat made in response to a threat of increased sanctions. Tit-for-tat.

The use of their program to develop nuclear reactors for naval vessels is a violation of their declared program. You are ignoring the problem - which
is their ability to follow through. Do the Iranains have the ability to enrich to 80% or higher?

If their program is peaceful why need for that ability?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I'm not ignoring it, but Israel has followed through with their threats against other countries (many times with reason, granted) while Iran has not
launched a single missile toward another country (discounting during an open declaration of war against an invading Iraq). I also should mention one
other point that just came to me: The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, one of the holiest sites in Islam, is located in Jerusalem, Israel. A
nuclear attack would destroy it as well.

I am not required for a person who is pointing a gun at me to pull the trigger before taking action. The fact the person has a weapon and is pointing
it at me speaks volumes.

Also how has been supplying arms / money / support to Hamas / Hezzbullah? Iran - so yes Iran has followed through on their threats and yes they have
launched missiles at Israel via their proxies.

As for religious sites they are irrelevant to the issue at hand unless you are going to try and justify actions based on the location of the religious
site?

Israel did not start the encounters that resulted in their captureing of Gaza, the Sinai, The West bank nor East Jerusalem. If they are concerned
about their holy sites then maybe they should not start a war they cant win?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
In short, I do not see Iran's threats as credible. I do see Israel's threats as credible.

I see Irans threat as credible since they have been supporting attacks on Israel via their proxies for many years now. Iran refuses to recognize
Israel as a nation and constantly states they want it wiped off the map.

Israels concern is Irans nuke program and their threats have revolved around that one point.

The threats being made are completely different in nature.
Israels is that of self defense...
Irans is that of genocide, picking up where the Nazis left off.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Understand, please... Iran has had the ability to enrich HEU since their first successful enrichment of LEU. Iran has had high explosives for a very
long time. Thus, Iran has had the ability to produce a nuclear warhead. Delivery may be another issue; I not know what their level of technology is
regarding missile guidance and rocketry. But the weapon is much easier to build than you seem to believe.

I do understand... I have been stating for sometime now that the concern is Irans ability to produce a functional nuclaer weapon. They have all the
parts and have been working on the triggers to finish it off. You are not telling me anything I dont already no. The fact you just stated how easy it
is to produce a weapon and your argument that Iran could easily do so supports the argument being made by everyone else about Irans actions and
intent.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
What they apparently have not done is to refine any enriched uranium into machinable metal for inclusion in a bomb or developed a plutonium
source. The former is a requirement for a nuclear detonation; the latter a requirement for production of an implosion-type device consistent with
their EBW detonators.

~continued~

20% enrichment is the minimum level needed in order to a nuclear tyype reaction . result from an explosion. Again you seem to be missing the point on
ability. The claims are not Iran is building a nuclear weapon. The claims are Iran is developing the ability to create a nuclear weapon. Once all the
pieces are in place its a matter of process to quickly assemble one.

that is what the concern is.. That is why the world is concerned about Irans enrichment program and ability to enrich to higher levels.

The ability to produce a nuclear weapon is far more dangerous than actually building one. Once the ability is in place there is no way to determine if
they are in fact building one or not.

A nation with a peaceful nuclear program does not need the ability to enrich uranium / assemble triggers etc for sole use in nuclear weapons. There is
no civilian application that require the ability to produce a nuclear weapon.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
Gone way off topic from what this thread was about,....

That happens when you allow your own ignorance to get in the way of actual learning.

No, it happens when somebody like you refuses to learn form history and fact. You are deceiving yourself by refusing to take-in factual information.
It's hard to get across a valid factual point when somebody is too interested in making things up for their own preference.

As for the rest of your opinion I would suggest you learn the laws and understand how your government works before making more claims that arent
supported by anything but your paranoia. Feel free to choose one of the many threads on assange and wikileaks and let me know.

Claims such as murder and torture of civilians? First i am not an american citizen. And second, go research 'collateral murder' while on the subject
of wikileaks. Deny all you want. But before you call me ignorant open your damned eyes.

I can school you in those threads instead of driving this one any further off topic by constantly correcting your inability to use logic, facts and
reason.

Oh look, pot called the kettle black, really now?

.As for the topic at hand - Iran and their nuclear program, I will let GarrusVasNormandy continue to school you on the topic.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I agree. But if they did withdraw from the treaty, how many would treat that as an admission they have or intend to build nukes and call for an
all-out pre-emptive attack?

At that point it would be irrelevant since their ctions in obtaining those weapons are no longer violating the agreements they signed onto.
Pakistan... India..... North Korea... All declared nuclear powers, all either withdrew or never signed onto the NPT / IAEA.

North Korea has been referred to the security council numerous times.. Until they withdrew. Now its diplomacy, coming down to end this project and we
will give you food for the winter etc etc etc. They dont have to stop and we dont have to supply food / aid to them.

North Korea has given similar threaats along the same lines as Iran has to Israel towards South Korea. Reign nuclear fire down, end their existence
etc etc etc.

South Korea has plans in place to deal with that eventualituy, and Israel does for Iran.

If you are the leader of a country and you dont want to be attacked, then maybe you should not go on media and threaten to end another countries
existance.

Like law enforcement, if a person tell me they are special forces and are going to kill me, I dont have to wait for the attack to come before taking
action. We are not required to wait for the person making the threats to provide his credentials / proof that he is and can do what he claims.

The threat is taken at face value and we move from there. It is no difference when Iran opens their mouth about what they are going to do to
Israel.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Yep, and I stand by that. I also believe that if one side of an argument has restrictions, the other side should as well.

The only problem with that is when the threats are only coming from one side. Why should Israel be tied because Iran wants to loudly comment on what
they can and will do to them?

That mindset is along the same lines of the argument about a duty to retreat for gun control. Some states require civilians to retreat fr5om a deadly
situation if they can and any attempt to defend themselves can get them thrown in prison.

Its admitting they cant control the criminal element so in order to "fix" that issue they punish the law abiding citizens.

So take your pick: both have the right to keep national security secrets (my preference), or both have to open all doors to the IAEA.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Actually, I am doing just that. And the deeper I dig, the more I question the official Western story.

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