Rogers Cup R3: Murray vs Gulbis

It isn't about winning or losing. It's about trying. If he loses while actually putting in effort, I'm fine with that. If he looks like he would rather be elsewhere, why does he bother turning up? I can't tolerate that.

1) Perhaps because the rules of the tour are that he is obliged to turn up, and unlike Nadal he attempts to respect the rules.

Why do you think some people get so angry when he puts in the kind of performance he put in yesterday? Could it possibly be because we are invested in his career and want him to maximise his potential?

2) Given his background and his recent performances at critical times, (Final set at the USO last year, set 3 in the Verdasco match at Wimbledon, final game of the Wimbledon final this year).", I find it difficult to understand how you can think he isn't maximising his potential.

As much as you don't understand my reaction to his subpar performances, I am equally puzzled by the indifference of people like you.

3) I don't think any of us are indifferent to his "subpar performance". It is possibly that some of us are mature enough to recognise that perhaps that was the best performance he was capable of on that particular day, at that particular time, against that particular opponent, in those particular conditions. Some of us can also acknowledge that there might be a wider picture, that we are not privy to, and hence any number of reasons why he wasn't able to deliver the goods in a particular situation. We also recognise that there are many situations where he manages to raise his game at the crucial moment. The Miami masters final against Ferrer this year being a case in point.

You need to recognise that not everyone is the same. Just because you react a particular way to a performance like yesterday's, it does not mean that everyone should be similarly indifferent.

4) It's not about dictating to people how they should react in any given situation. It is about wanting and expecting people to at least give Andy Murray the basic respect any fellow human being who has achieved so much against such great odds warrants. He often doesn't get that respect on here from some people. He has lost a tennis match, not suddenly taken up axe murdering by way of a little light relief. In my opinion many people's reactions when he loses are so way over the top as to be puzzling.

It is completely rational for people who are invested in his career to be angry when he phones in a performance and wastes everyone's time, including his own.

5) Sorry I completely disagree with you - some people's reactions when he loses are not rational. In most cases they are so over the top as to be completely irrational. If people have so much emotional investment in whether Mr Murray wins or loses a tennis match. I think they need to look within themselves at their own issues, rather than focussing so much on Mr Murray's purported issues. Non of us know whether his attendance at this tournament is/was wasting his time. It might well be part of a wider picture that we are not privy to.

My intention is not to fall out with people and I have tried to respond to your points in a calm manner, and explain my point of view. I find it upsetting when somebody who I have a great deal of respect for, for the way he has conquered so many demons, is given such a hard time by many of his so called fans because of the crime of losing a tennis match. I am not indifferent to him losing. I simply recognise that it is inevitably going to happen sometimes, and can't understand why he is given such a hard time for being a mere mortal. In the end I think that the two differing factions are going to need to agree to disagree here.

Again, it's not about winning or losing. It's about actually trying.

And no, he doesn't have to turn up. The events being mandatory only means that he can't play in another tournament instead. He is absolutely free to pull out of the event, as many players do.

Also, I do not think he is maximising his potential just because he has won two majors. He could go on to do so much more, including getting to number 1. If he isn't interested in trying at any event outside of the majors, he isn't maximising his potential, almost by definition.

Am sure we've all noticed that when Andy's movement is off, his timing is off and he struggles. And it certainly does look to onlookers that he is "somewhere else" or even not bothering. I'm not even convinced that this is a conscious process however, but in those circumstances winning must suddenly seem a very long way off. I'm convinced he starts to feel disheartened and this feeling overwhelms him, then the struggle doesn't seem worth it. And our "old" Andy re-surfaces.However, what should be thoroughly cheering for us fans, is that I am damn sure if this had been a slam, Andy would have come through. In best of 5 anyway, you can play your way into a match. Best of 3 is something of a lottery.So don't be glum, chums!

Am sure we've all noticed that when Andy's movement is off, his timing is off and he struggles. And it certainly does look to onlookers that he is "somewhere else" or even not bothering. I'm not even convinced that this is a conscious process however, but in those circumstances winning must suddenly seem a very long way off. I'm convinced he starts to feel disheartened and this feeling overwhelms him, then the struggle doesn't seem worth it. And our "old" Andy re-surfaces.However, what should be thoroughly cheering for us fans, is that I am damn sure if this had been a slam, Andy would have come through. In best of 5 anyway, you can play your way into a match. Best of 3 is something of a lottery.So don't be glum, chums!

Andy's timing has definitely been off this week. I think the change in surface and conditions has been part of it. Also, practice isn't the same as playing.

I don't think Andy reacts any differently to any of the others to be honest. You simply can't play your best every week. Sometimes you can't get to where you need to be mentally. It happens to all of them. Sometimes you can grit it out and get through. Other times the opponent will be inspired and get the win. Something similar happened to Djokovic in Madrid when Dimitrov beat him. Djokovic's best just wasn't there that day, any more than Andy's best was with him yesterday.

I still think this is a bit of comedown off Wimbledon. It's not deliberate, not consciously done. Judging by the way Andy looked when he came out, he'd just mentally had enough for one day. The fight just wasn't there from the start.

There's no doubt in my mind that had it been a slam it would have been a different result.

And no, he doesn't have to turn up. The events being mandatory only means that he can't play in another tournament instead. He is absolutely free to pull out of the event, as many players do.

Also, I do not think he is maximising his potential just because he has won two majors. He could go on to do so much more, including getting to number 1. If he isn't interested in trying at any event outside of the majors, he isn't maximising his potential, almost by definition.

1) How do you know he wasn't actually trying? Given non of us were actually there. I don't think we can say that. He might have been trying his heart out but it simply wasn't working for him. He might have been getting very frustrated because his timing and ball striking was off. Non of us actually know.

2) You don't think he is maximising his potential, but perhaps he and his team do. Given they, unlike us are privy to the whole situation he is in with regard to his mental state, the physical demands on his body, etc, etc. Non of us actually know. Given this time last year he hadn't got one Grand Slam, much less two I think the evidence would suggest he is maximising his potential. Perhaps there are other factors effecting him that we know nothing about.

3) Given this year he has won Brisbane, the Miami Masters, and Queens I don't think you can argue that he doesn't try at events outside the Slams.

I remain of the opinion that too many people on here are too quick to take it personally if he doesn't win, every single match he plays, or appears not to be trying in every single match he plays - note the word appears. The lad has just won Wimbledon give him a break. When the careers of the current too players are evaluated at the end of their careers I think the number of Grand Slams they have won will be way ahead of the whether they ever reached number 1. If when Mr Murray retires he had never won a Grand Slam he would have been deemed a failure, or an also ran. Now he won't be. I will take that over being number 1 any day.

No one expects him to play perfect tennis in every match. What we do expect is for him to actually try, at a minimum.

Also, my avatar is supposed to be ironic. Way to miss the point.

Man i'm aware of the irony, the fact you went for irony in the first place is at least recognising that you and others are aware of your own shortcomings when it comes to staying calm and rational over a simple tennis match is a step in the right direction at least.

The number 1 player in the world didn't turn up to his match last night until he was a set down and 2-2 in the 2nd set against the mighty Dennis Istomin, sure he won comfortably in the end but Istomin is not as dangerous a player as Gulbis who probably would have beaten Novak in straight sets judging by the poor performance from Novak.

The point is, the very best players in the world do not always bring their best stuff to every event, Andy is no different than anyone else in this regard.

Like Masaka I don't know how we can possibly know that Andy wasn't trying. I can't believe he particularly wanted to lose to someone like Gulbis but if he can't get his timing right there may be a limit to just how hard he's prepared to fight and that may well not be a conscious decision as someone has already pointed out. Like Masaka too I also find it rather sad how some people seem to think that Andy owes them personally. I'm sure he's devastated to think that you felt you wasted your time watching him Clydey.

And no, he doesn't have to turn up. The events being mandatory only means that he can't play in another tournament instead. He is absolutely free to pull out of the event, as many players do.

Also, I do not think he is maximising his potential just because he has won two majors. He could go on to do so much more, including getting to number 1. If he isn't interested in trying at any event outside of the majors, he isn't maximising his potential, almost by definition.

And you are free to pull out of watching, which means it is not Andy wasting your time, it is you.

Like Masaka I don't know how we can possibly know that Andy wasn't trying. I can't believe he particularly wanted to lose to someone like Gulbis but if he can't get his timing right there may be a limit to just how hard he's prepared to fight and that may well not be a conscious decision as someone has already pointed out. Like Masaka too I also find it rather sad how some people seem to think that Andy owes them personally. I'm sure he's devastated to think that you felt you wasted your time watching him Clydey.

I don't ever recall suggesting that he cares that he wasted my time. In fact, I said he wasted everyone's time, including his own.

I don't think he owes me anything personally. It's strange that people view tennis and football very differently. Get angry when your team loses and its perfectly normal. Get angry when your favourite tennis player loses and you're apparently some sort of monster.

I certainly do not think Andy wasted his time or mine. I know he works very hard and is a very committed, decent honest young man. I don't understand why we have to throw insults at each other.There are those of us who are the glass is half full and those who are the glass is half empty. The pessimists and the optimists, being an optimist is far less stressful and less likely to suffer depression.I'm sure Andy will try hard in his doubles match with Colin and hopefully will win.When he eventually reaches Cinci he will start working on his game with Lendl and his team in order to prepare for the tournament. No amount of us shouting at each other will get his game and timing where he wants it. As far as I'm concerned it is what Andy wants and needs that matters.I just think we don't know how much winning Wimbledon and all that went on after took out of Andy both physically and mentally, he was hounded by the media. Then he only had 5 days on holiday with Kim to relax before he was back in Miami training. So it will take a few matches before he is where he wants. He could have done with an easier opponent to get his rhythm back, which Gulbis did not give him. So I'm sending Andy a