Let's just agree to disagree on what floats our respective boats - you and Terry to name a few prefer Haw, and AP is my favorite track. I know I'm not going to get you to publicly admit to anything different, and rest assured I will never change my mind. Some people are satidfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy.

Pete

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Pete,

Love the Pepsi and macaroni/wine and steak analogy here's another one ClockerTerry can relate to:

Lodging: Terry - Super 8 or Motel 6 You or I - Hyatt or Marriott

And like you correctly stated......these guys will never change their opinions about Arlington or Haw.

"Let's just agree to disagree on what floats our respective boats - you and Terry to name a few prefer Haw, and AP is my favorite track. I know I'm not going to get you to publicly admit to anything different, and rest assured I will never change my mind. Some people are satidfied with macaroni and diet Pepsi (you), and I prefer a good steak and a nice Merlot. Hey there's nothing wrong with either preference, just don't expect me to order up your macaroni - it will never happen. Life is too short to waste my time on that. I look forward to spending between 70 and 90 wonderful afternoons at AP this summer and there is nothing you or Terry can say that will detract from that joy." - Pete

Great job, Pete, you said it best. What is boils down to is those who like racing, like Arlington, and those who just like betting, like Hawthorne. Count me with you, Pete!

It's possible to like racing and like Hawthorne, and to like betting and like Arlington.

To Pete and Dan, aesthetics and ammenities are more important than they are to others. No arguing Arlington is a beautiful facility, but have things I like about Hawthorne as well (having little to do with the rebates as I dn't bet enough to warrant anything significant).

I would point out that if Hawthorne raced during the summer they'd probably experiece a similar lack of large fields especially since I don't think their turf could hold up to 200 races a season (not a knock, just a reflection of its size compares to AP). Think summer of '98 and '99 --- racing wasn't all that different at Hawthorne than what you saw at Arlington outside of the stakes program. Fields at the high end stuggled as thy do at AP.

To each his own. I enjoy my summers at Arlington and my spring and fall at Hawthorne. I probably make more trips to AP than I do to HAW but I think its more a function of the weather than anything else.

To Pete, and all of the other posters smooching his butt about what great posts he's making: *please* continue with the Diet Pepsi & macaroni vs. Merlot & steak analogies -- your pretentiousness is fascinating!

Hey, Terry some bad mouthing you at OTB. Some people say you are over 300 lbs. I say, you can't be. Anyone that fat, can't be a good handicapper. ( Not enough blood flow to the brain)Tell Stat, I am right in defending you.

Hey, Terry some bad mouthing you at OTB. Some people say you are over 300 lbs. I say, you can't be. Anyone that fat, can't be a good handicapper. ( Not enough blood flow to the brain)Tell Stat, I am right in defending you.

Why would I care what clowns at that OTB say? Besides John Frank knows me, so he could answer your question. Thanks for your support though, and you are right.

Terry you said - "But I think big fancy tracks like AP are a thing of the past, nice day out for Biff and Buff or not."

Do you object to fancy tracks? And are you saying Hawthorne is the future?

Terry - "A few destinations like Saratoga, Keeneland, Del Mar, and Oaklawn will continue to do okay for some years, because they have good racing."

Get serious Terry and get your facts straight. With the exception of the Festival of racing, Oaklawn is nothing special. It's currently averaging less than 8K daily on weekdays running 4 days a week. Keenland and Saratoga do very well in part because there is no other viable entertainment options and their respective states support the product much better than Illinois does. By the way AP's attendance sure looks pretty good compared to those classy tracks AQU, SA and GP - all averaging less than 5K daily on weekdays. Check the charts. I don't know if they close off sections of their grandstand too - if they don't they must be empty caverns.

Terry - "As far as AP, you can already see evidence of dwindling crowds. When did you ever see half the grandstand floor closed off like it has been weekdays the past few years. The racing isn't good enough to attract big crowds like those other tracks get."

See above. Besides the four tracks you name, how many others of the 50 or so remaining outdraws AP? Very few. You know what really bugs me about you Terry is that you try to pass yourself off as a factual expert, and you either skew the facts to suit your argument or you're just a flat out bullshitter. It may work for some on this forum but not me.

Pete

Monmouth outdraws AP. always has always will.and monmouth has bigger fields and much better purses. Now the track itself isn't as swanky (expect in some portions of the clubhourse), but 2 bucks to get in, picnic area at the top of the stretch that outdones AP by far and the ability to bring in outside food and beverages makes monmouth a happening place each summer.

Monmouth average attendence was 9,000, Arlington 7,200. Arlington still outhandled Moumouth on a total handle base 4.3m to 3.1m and on-track handle 700k to 650k (2005 figures). I am guessing before the riverboats came in Arlingtons attendence was much greater than Mounmouth. You can bring your own food in to Arlington also just not fast food packaged food.

Thomas you made some very good points on this subject and I'd like to add to two points you made concerning AP and Haw:

"It's possible to like racing and like Hawthorne, and to like betting and like Arlington."

You're right on on this point Thomas. Terry and HV would like this group to believe that anyone who likes AP is a snob and/or not a serious bettor. Talk about PRETENTIOUS HV. The fact is my wagering averages between $60K-$70K/year. That probably doesn't put me on a level with HV or Terry, but it's not chump change. I take my racing seriously and ohmygosh Terry, I actually find many excellent wagering opportunities at AP - yes even in a six horse field. I don't make enough at the track to live on, but fortunately I don't have to. It does remain a serious pasttime for me and supports itself.

That brings me to another comment Thomas made:

"To Pete and Dan, aesthetics and ammenities are more important than they are to others."

Agreed. For fans that value those qualities, AP will be a very viable option. Certainly there's nothing wrong with that is there? For fans where that isn't important Haw might be an acceptable choice, but why would they go there when they could just sit at home or at a more convenient OTB and wager?

I got into this thread because Terry continued with his BS that AP is not very popular and/or is going downhill as evidenced by it's "small crowds" and "having to shut down half its grandstand on weekdays". My point is there are very few tracks that out draw AP. Tery was able to name a few in a weak attempt to recover. He and HV also like to portray AP fans as snobs because they enjoy its ambiance. Pretentious HV?

Bottom line: For those who enjoy going to AP - to borrow from the Miller Light commercial - its a great place AND decent betting opportunities. Sadly only the latter at best applies to Haw. Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

One thing I prefer Hawthorne to Arlington for is free seating with a view of the track. Yes, the third floor seats are the stadium fold down seats and at times are in desparate need of cleaning, but at least I'm not charged $3-$5 to sit in a half (or 3/4) empty grandstand.

HAW is not the hell hole you and Dan portray it to be. Compared to Arlingtom, most places pale. And I wouldn't go to an OTB and pay a surcharge when I can drive to HAW almost as easy, and while I occasionally play at home, I prefer to be able to see the paddock and post parade in person if I'm going to wager my precious fixed income on the live, local product.

Terry and HV would like this group to believe that anyone who likes AP is a snob and/or not a serious bettor. Talk about PRETENTIOUS HV.

Some serious bettors prefer 6-horse fields and $8.20 exactas; if you show a profit, I don't care which race you made the profit in -- I tip my hat to you.

But I didn't make the macaroni vs. steak comment, Pete -- you did. It was pretentious and you got called on it.

One can like AP and not a snob about it -- but that doesn't describe you at all. Admit it, you've been looking down your nose at Hawthorne, and the people who like the place, for far longer than this forum has been around: I remember your posts from way back when you used to post to The Derby List. At least you are consistently pretentious.

Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

Pete

...and if this happens, and the other thing, and we get slots, and the dollar gets stronger and the price of oil drops, and they find a cure for eczema, etc...yeah, I've chewed on all of those exciting possibilities for the 20 years I've been in the game.

Hasn't happened. Ain't gonna happen. That's why I think a track like AP is deader than Kelso's nuts -- the land is simply too valuable for other more profitable uses to keep subsidizing a losing product like horse racing. We can banter back and forth about this some more, if you'd like, but it's a waste of time: it's all in the hands of the CD corporate number-crunchers, even as we speak. Chew on that.

Monmouth average attendence was 9,000, Arlington 7,200. Arlington still outhandled Moumouth on a total handle base 4.3m to 3.1m and on-track handle 700k to 650k (2005 figures). I am guessing before the riverboats came in Arlingtons attendence was much greater than Mounmouth. You can bring your own food in to Arlington also just not fast food packaged food.

Monmouth On track 645K AP On Track 575K Monmouth Outhandled AP on track by more the 10% and more than 10% in attendance.

Monmouth clearly a better draw. and Oh BTW the slots at AC are right down the road. and this at a track that is 60 years old. and BTW monmouth has never closedany part of its grandstand for any reason.

One can like AP and not a snob about it -- but that doesn't describe you at all. Admit it, you've been looking down your nose at Hawthorne, and the people who like the place.

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I will never apologize for having the sentiments ascribed above, the fact is I ( and many others ) will always look down on Hawthorne Race Course as an inferior racing "experience" and we have valid reasons for such feelings. I just cannot understand why folks like HV and ClockerTerry argue so vigoroulsy as to the merits of HAW vs. AP - surely in their hearts they must know AP is superior in so,so many ways compared to the Stickney facility.

I got into this thread because Terry continued with his BS that AP is not very popular and/or is going downhill as evidenced by it's "small crowds" and "having to shut down half its grandstand on weekdays". My point is there are very few tracks that out draw AP. Tery was able to name a few in a weak attempt to recover. He and HV also like to portray AP fans as snobs because they enjoy its ambiance. Pretentious HV?

Here we are again, right where we have always ended up with Pete, going back 10 years to the Derby List, arguing things that no one said.

You did not "get into this thread because Terry continued", you were already in it about four posts. The comment about shutting down the grandstand was in my comment about what type of tracks I thought would be around in the future, after you had shared your vision of why Arlington was the racetrack of the future. That's what it was, a different vision. But now all of a sudden it was a huge insult to you, and the destination tracks I named are some "weak attempt to recover" in an argument about current daily attendance that was never an argument! Who cares? If we wanted to argue current daily attendence we'd trot out tracks like Santa Anita that truly kick Arlington's butt.

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Bottom line: For those who enjoy going to AP - to borrow from the Miller Light commercial - its a great place AND decent betting opportunities. Sadly only the latter at best applies to Haw. Further, if we can ever get the purses up in Illinois, AP will not only have the facility, but also better racing AND larger crowds. Chew on that Terry and HV.

Guess what, einstein? If the purses in Illinois magically go up, they will be going up at Hawthorne, too. Unless, of course, your wish comes true and Dick manages to force Hawthorne out of business so he can have the monopoly on Chicago racing the two of you dream of every night. And think about it realistically, how much would Arlington purses have to go up to attract the type of horses you think belong there? That's right, to above the $500k/day mark, because the horses you want are running at places like Keeneland and Belmont and Saratoga and Santa Anita, not Canterbury and Prairie Meadows and Lone Star and Lousisiana Downs. The extra horses you're going to get at Arlington with anything less, like $300k per day, are just a few more Illinois breds, and cheap claimers drawn away from the latter tier of tracks, because the big tracks will still be offering more money. Chew on that!

I just cannot understand why folks like HV and ClockerTerry argue so vigoroulsy as to the merits of HAW vs. AP - surely in their hearts they must know AP is superior in so,so many ways compared to the Stickney facility.

What I know in my heart is that I visit Hawthorne so, so many more times during the course of a year than Arlington, and there are reasons for it. If you cannot understand why, that's your problem, not mine. Unless you are in Arlington marketing, I cannot understand why folks like you even care.

Terry quote: "Here we are again, right where we have always ended up with Pete, going back 10 years to the Derby List, arguing things that no one said".

Yes Terry I do remember 10 years ago on the Derby Digest. You were bashing Dick as usual on everything from $3 beers to "spensive" turkey wraps, crowing about AP beiing closed, and Spt and Haw being the saviors of ILL racing. Things haven't changed ....... or have they? Spts is finished, AP is back and Haw is still a dump. Well 1/3 probably isn't too bad for you. Quit your weasel-mouth reconstructing of the past. If you aren't a lawyer you should be. I'm not going to respond to your BS about what I said and didn't say anymore - it's far too tiresome and I don't have unlimited time to address your crap like you seem to have. Please don't take my lack of response to your followup posts on this subject as anything other than contempt. I'll take HV's wise words below to heart.

Horse Voice quote "We can banter back and forth about this some more, if you'd like, but it's a waste of time:"

Fair enough HV. You're absolutely right. Our banter won't change the current situation nor affect the shape of things to come. So I'll end my participation on this subject with this: I live 8 minutes from AP and am witness to the continued boom in housing development in the Northwest suburbs, and I still see plenty of undeveloped (cheaper than AP) land to work with. Plus there's the massive convention/hotel/restaurant complex being built just off the NW Tollway near Woodfield shopping mall and the local community's strong support for the track. Result - AP's potential "Biff and Buffie" fan base growing every day, and entertainment options required for thousands of new visitors and conventioneers. I could be wrong but I'm not too concerned that AP will be departing the Chicago racing scene in my lifetime. If it does, it will likely be the last to turn out the lights in this state. Lets alll enjoy our live racing wherever we prefer while it lasts.