Yes, it should be legal to do an AOW on a pistol with a fixed mag. The fixed mag keeps it out of the AW realm in which the VFG would be an evil feature. I think vandal has a good idea in the way he is gonna do the process.

pto, I don't see why you couldn't build it up in Title 1 configuration and file the Form 1 afterwards. Then, after the Form comes back approved, put the VFG on and make it Title 2.

edit: +1 on the pistol definition. AFAIK, CA has no AOW definition. So AOW is not a type of firearm in CA law. However, CA says that if a specific firearm is a federally defined AOW and lawfully possessed federally, then it is exempt from all of the 12020 prohibitions.

I don't see why you couldn't AOW your fixed-mag Krink pistol. It wouldn't be an AW due to the fixed-mag.

As for the ATF approving it, I could see there being some questions asked to either you or CADOJ. Who knows, it may force CADOJ to go "on the record" regarding fixed-mag setups one way or another.

There was a conversation in a different thread regarding dodging the AW status if a firearm (say AK style) was built with a solid rear block (no stock means, not shoulder fired, means its not a rifle so AW exempt), had a minimum 16" barrel (so its not a pistol) and a 26" OAL.

Just curious, what would stop someone from building an AK style firearm the same way, AOW the firearm for the SBR exemption, and replace the 16" barrel with a krink style barrel? Would this not make it a non assult weapon, detatchable mag short barrel firearm?

There was a conversation in a different thread regarding dodging the AW status if a firearm (say AK style) was built with a solid rear block (no stock means, not shoulder fired, means its not a rifle so AW exempt), had a minimum 16" barrel (so its not a pistol) and a 26" OAL.

That is thought to be a valid type of build that would not be a rifle or a pistol, so the thought is that, yes, it would be exempt from the AW pistol and rifle rules.

Quote:

Just curious, what would stop someone from building an AK style firearm the same way, AOW the firearm for the SBR exemption, and replace the 16" barrel with a krink style barrel? Would this not make it a non assult weapon, detatchable mag short barrel firearm?

Couple things wrong with that I see. An AOW registration does not give you an SBR exemption. If it has/had a stock, it is an SBR and can't be an AOW. If it never had a stock, then it is an AOW and can't be an SBR, since an SBR requires a shoulder stock to be on the firearm at some point.

If you had it registered as an AOW (and I'm not sure if a 16"/26" PG-only firearm could be) once you put the pistol barrel on, you've created a CA pistol. CA defines pistol as any firearm with a <16" barrel. And if it is a CA pistol, then it must comply with the CA pistol AW rules, and that means no detachable mag for you.

CA defines pistol as any firearm with a <16" barrel. And if it is a CA pistol, then it must comply with the CA pistol AW rules, and that means no detachable mag for you.

I was under the impression that the AOW status means it can not be defined as a pistol or a rifle regardless of the barrel length as long as it doesn't have a stock. Why does this work for a shotgun and not a centerfire?

I think pistol is also defined as "can be concealed.....blah blah." Don't see many people trying to jam a krink down their pants and conceal it.

Edit: I got the "handgun" and "pistol" deffinitions mixed up in my last sentence. You are correct about the 16" length. I'm still curious about the AOW status though not making the firearm a pistol.

I was under the impression that the AOW status means it can not be defined as a pistol or a rifle regardless of the barrel length as long as it doesn't have a stock. Why does this work for a shotgun and not a centerfire?

I don't think it works for a shotgun. Take for example the Remington 870 #24823, it comes with an 18" barrel and front an rear pistol grips. Is it an AOW? No. But if you cut it down to less than 18", it is an "unconventional pistol" due to being a smooth bore pistol. The front grip has nothing to do wiith the AOW ruling on a shotgon. Maybe if it was a .410 with a rifled bore, then it might need a VFG to be an AOW.

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I'm still curious about the AOW status though not making the firearm a pistol.

I don't think it works for a shotgun. Take for example the Remington 870 #24823, it comes with an 18" barrel and front an rear pistol grips. Is it an AOW? No. But if you cut it down to less than 18", it is an "unconventional pistol" due to being a smooth bore pistol. The front grip has nothing to do wiith the AOW ruling on a shotgon. Maybe if it was a .410 with a rifled bore, then it might need a VFG to be an AOW.

Alright now I'm more confused than before I read all 25 pages. LOL

I guess what I'm trying to say is if its okay to AOW your cruiser to chop the barrel under 16" and it is not considered a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm, why not an AK?

I guess what I'm trying to say is if its okay to AOW your cruiser to chop the barrel under 16" and it is not considered a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm, why not an AK?

Oh, but I personally think it is a pistol/handgun/concealable firearm. If that is the case, then if it was semi-auto, it would need to comply with the pistol AW regs. Make it a originally single shot pistol and you should be exempt from the roster as well.

I may be wrong on this and CA may not consider an AOW to be a pistol, but I am taking the safe approach until proven otherwise.

I get everything except this, how can I legally transfer the pistol-gripped shotgun, from me, to a trust, LLC, or Corp., with out the use of a FFL 01.

You notarize the transfer of assets page with the gun going to the trust. you are the Grantor and Trustee, therefore you have "possession" of it, and have authority over it in the name of the trust. There is no fingerprints belonging to the Trust, so how would you imagine doing a firearm transfer via FFL01 to it? That is the beauty of the Trust, just you , paper, and a notary and you are making asset changes as it should be in this god given world.

You notarize the transfer of assets page with the gun going to the trust. you are the Grantor and Trustee, therefore you have "possession" of it, and have authority over it in the name of the trust. There is no fingerprints belonging to the Trust, so how would you imagine doing a firearm transfer via FFL01 to it? That is the beauty of the Trust, just you , paper, and a notary and you are making asset changes as it should be in this god given world.

Too bad most things in life are not this easy....

Justin

Justin

I agree the trust is easy... I love the simplicity of using a trust.
But how would a transfer to a LLC or Corp take place here in California...
Of the three, if formed correctly the LLC or Corp structure may have benefits which a trust may not offer...

__________________

oh this...

It's a Single Cylinder - Single Stroke, Internal Combustion Engine, with a Free Floating Piston...

"SHOTGUN
A firearm intended to fire from the shoulder that uses a shotgun shell to propel one or more projectiles through a long barrel with a smooth bore. It may have one or more barrels. "

I don't know if the Saiga-12 uses a standard AK flat, but if so, this might work: buy a demilled Saiga-12 kit, build one up from a flat with 18"+ barrel, AOW it with a 16.1" barrel, dual pistol grips, and have it take a detachable magazine.

Right?

Last edited by vandal; 06-13-2008 at 7:43 PM..
Reason: Corrected per GuyW's suggestion

....Saiga-12 uses a standard AK flat, but if so, this might work: buy a demilled Saiga-12 kit, build one up from a flat as a single-shot "CA AOW" with 18"+ barrel, convert it to semi-auto, AOW it with a 16.1" barrel, dual pistol grips, and have it take a detachable magazine.

Ah, yes. There is not a CA "AOW" definition so I don't like to use that term lest it be confused with the federal definition, but you're right -- what I was describing was not a pistol (>16"bbl), not a rifle (not a rifled bore), not a shotgun (not designed to be fired from the shoulder). And actually since it is starting with >16" barrel it would not need to be configured as single-shot to begin with (I think.)

How do you prove that your pistol-gripped "shotgun" was never a shoulder-stocked shotgun?

By buying the specific model that comes with a PG only. Keep a copy of the box label that shows the serial and what model it was. The 07/02s that I have talked to that were willing to do an AOW on a customer supplied PG-shotgun all required either a copy of, or the actual box label so that they could confirm that it left the factory as a PG gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyW

Right - the only one that I know of, where the manufacturer sold a unique model that never had a shoulder stock....therefore, sales docs and 4473 would ID that gun as an AOW....

Mossberg has a couple models out there. The 500 JICs and Cruisers. And Remington has one 870 model out there with the PG, model #24823.

We all know the detachable magazine semi-auto shotgun (think Saiga-12) is an AW here in CA. But, what if you were to do the following:

Purchase your Saiga with no stock (PG only), and without the gas system installed, so that it's no longer a "semi automatic" shotgun.

Then, you xfer to your trust, fill out the From 1 BS, and create your "sawed off" with front and rear pistol grips. At this point, you no longer possess a "shotgun" but you do possess an "AOW", which means you can modify it to now be semi-auto w/o affecting the AOW status. In the end, you can have a 10" bbl double pistol grip AOW shotgun with a detachable magazine, yes?

BTW, can you CCW an AOW?

Unfortunately, you can't buy a Saiga that was imported with only a PG, or without a stock. You'd have to build your own on a flat. Double pistol grips is not a requirement on a "shotgun based" AOW. It is an AOW per a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. Aparantly, if it has an 18+" barrel it isn't considered a pistol.

I still think you will run into AW snags. Yes, if built on a flat, it would not be a "shotgun" since it never had a stock, so it would not need to comply with the shotgun AW rules. But, I think it would be considered a pistol in CA as soon as the barrel went under 16", and at that point you have to comply with the pistol AW rules. And that means no detachable mag.

I thought that was the whole point of the "AOW", the weapon is not a rifle, a pistol, or shotgun, it's simply "any other weapon".

Remember, AOW is a federal definition, not a state definition. There are not any CA-defined AOWs. However, CA says if you have a Federally approved AOW, then you are exempt from section 12020. There are no other AOW exemptions that I have found for other sections of the code.

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And yes, I realize that Saiga doesn't normally import shotguns w/o stocks, but I'm sure you could put together a custom order, especially a group buy (calguns group buy, anyone??) and just get them documented as "stockless" builds from the factory.

I don't think that they could import PG'ed builds due to the sporting usage regulations. I dunno if they could even import stripped receivers. I know that an 07/02 went to SHOT this year and talked to every single importer/manufacturer of foreign-made shotguns to see if he could buy stripped receivers or PG-equipped shotguns so that he could make AOWs out of them. He said that he would have bought hundreds if that is what it would have taken, but everybody turned him down.

Sorry I have read through most of the pages but still am slightly confused. Ok from what I have have read if my friend has a C&R FFL and he buys a C&R M1 carbine, then we do a PPT to myself. OK now that I own it I set up a trust and transfer the rifle to my trust and send the paperwork into ATF for a SBR. When that is approved we take it to a gunsmith and get it shortened and I am good to go? Is that right? Thanks guys.

IMHO you would have to go fixed-mag on the M1 carbine. Per CA definition, anything with under 16" of barrel is a pistol.

"12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. "

also 12001.(f): Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

So it can be both a SBR/SBS AND a pistol.

If it is a pistol you run afoul of:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

...

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. [M1: Yep]
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. [M1: Yep]

Sorry I have read through most of the pages but still am slightly confused. Ok from what I have have read if my friend has a C&R FFL and he buys a C&R M1 carbine, then we do a PPT to myself. OK now that I own it I set up a trust and transfer the rifle to my trust and send the paperwork into ATF for a SBR. When that is approved we take it to a gunsmith and get it shortened and I am good to go? Is that right? Thanks guys.

Trevor

More importantly, your friend cannot transfer an M1 Carbine to you in this manner. By buying the gun with the intent to transfer it to you, he's acting as a dealer which is a felony. His C&R is for his personal acquisition of firearms, not for acquiring to transfer to friends or for profit.

OK thanks for the answers. Obviously it is easy enough for me to get my C&R license to purchase it myself. So any better specific examples of C&R rifles that we could SBR in california? I will have to try to read through some more pages to figure out the AOW stuff.

The common thought in the NFA community is that once you hang an AOW masterkey under a rifle, it becomes an SBS due to the rifle stock. I believe that the masterkeys are sold as SBS's for that exact reason.

So, that just means you need to get a C&R 870

Once you have a legal SBS, I don't think there are any legal reasons why you couldn't attach it to a reg'd AW. I'm not even sure if it would be a problem hanging one under an OLL.

But in the end, the common feeling is that the masterkey setup is a waste of time and not worth it for use in a real CQB arena. But, we aren't concerned with that, its all about tacticool, and I think a masterkey definitely qualifies.

The common thought in the NFA community is that
But in the end, the common feeling is that the masterkey setup is a waste of time and not worth it for use in a real CQB arena. But, we aren't concerned with that, its all about tacticool, and I think a masterkey definitely qualifies.

Probably true about a waste of time, but its all (anything you can get in california) a waste of time and not practical anyway.

Its fun though.

So if I find a C&R 870, thats ok, and since the masterkeys are basically 870s anyway, I could probably do something???

**Have you found an NFA dealer in cali willing to do an NFA transfer yet?

Yup, you should be able to with a C&R 870 SBS. The issue becomes finding a mount for the 870. There are apparently a couple designs out there that go in an out of production.

Just make sure that whatever mount you use does not let the rear of the 870 come in contact with the front of the mag well under recoil. Bad Things can happen if that occurs. Theres also a mount that hangs off the front takedown pin that transfers the SBS recoil into the lower receiver and may cause problems.

As for CA NFA dealers willing to do work with us, haven't found anybody except for M24 up in NorCal. I still need to talk to my local guy but since I'm not ready to spend more money, I've put it off. Don't want to look like one of those looky-loos.

There is one other possibility that I just realized, an FFL doesn't have to be an SOT to transfer an NFA firearm. Any FFL can do the transfer, they just don't get FFL-to-FFL transfers tax free. Now, for an SBS, that adds a second $200 tax that makes it unfeasable, but for an AOW, its just an extra $5 tax stamp. That might be doable and would open up the dealer search to any FFL willing.

As for 870s, they are harder to locate since there is only 7 years of C&Rs out there. YOu'd need to to look at the pictures/text for serial number or email the seller what serial number it was.

572,000 is the cut-off for 1957 870s.

Ithacas cut off at 704,000 for 1957 M37s.

As a price point, I paid under $200 shipped for my 37, and got a couple 870s for $280 & $320 shipped.

Sweet man, my gunbroker-fu is weak. Was searching in the wrong spot. Now I just need to wait for this C&R to slowly get here. Has anyone done a side by side and cleaned up the stock to only a pistol grip? I think that will have to be my next project.