skatingtripods wrote:The official Rockies Twitter just tweeted the trade.

No additional player with Jimenez. Have to imagine the OC deal was a precursor to some kind of UTIL IF move. Maybe Jamey Carroll!!

unfortunately I read earlier the Dodgers have pulled Carroll from the market

The Dodgers' talks about trading infielder Jamey Carroll have died, tweets Dylan Hernandez of the L.A. Times, while there's a touch of interest in Furcal. Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer adds that the Dodgers' talks with the Indians have grown cold, so Carroll and Hiroki Kuroda won't be going to Cleveland.

phutatorius wrote:I'm just not sure that Ubaldo helps us more than Al White this year. He's got 11 or 12 chances to make a difference; White would have been back with us soon and probably could have given 9-10 starts.

You don't think that a healthy Jiminez (and he will be, because it is contingent on a physical) helps up more than Alex White coming off the DL? I respect your opinion, man, I just have to disagree strongly with that.

"Dammit you piss me off. I f#ckin hate you and I hope you f#cking get killed by a rabid polar bear you douche bag."

Bayou Tribe wrote:You don't think that a healthy Jiminez (and he will be, because it is contingent on a physical) helps up more than Alex White coming off the DL? I respect your opinion, man, I just have to disagree strongly with that.

White was pretty darn good. Is Ubaldo likely to be better? Sure. But I'm not convinced he'll be materially better. Even assuming Ubaldo is a run per game better than White, I'm not sure that run makes a difference with this offense.

Yeah, I'd like to see the guy catch fire, like CC and Lee did after their respective trades. That could give us a big lift, fer shurr. We'll see.

Doesn't this trade imply 'this offense' won't remain static? If they are all-in on a current window of contending, why would that not extend to the offense? Young guys should improve, and holes will be filled.That doesn't seem like a stretch. I'm getting more pumped, the more I think about this trade.

I'd have loved to have heard Belcher's input over the last few days/weeks on this.

Bayou Tribe wrote:You don't think that a healthy Jiminez (and he will be, because it is contingent on a physical) helps up more than Alex White coming off the DL? I respect your opinion, man, I just have to disagree strongly with that.

White was pretty darn good. Is Ubaldo likely to be better? Sure. But I'm not convinced he'll be materially better. Even assuming Ubaldo is a run per game better than White, I'm not sure that run makes a difference with this offense.

Yeah, I'd like to see the guy catch fire, like CC and Lee did after their respective trades. That could give us a big lift, fer shurr. We'll see.

The anemic offense is exactly why one run a game is a significant difference.

The full physical greatly eases my concerns. We've been burned before with lesser deals for sore-armed pitchers (John Smiley, Ben McDonald, hell, even Jason Knapp), and I was very fearful of our first big trade in years being based on scouting reports, old medical files, and a lot of finger crossing. If he's reasonably healthy with no warning signs, the deal makes a lot more sense and is easier to swallow. I'm glad this stipulation was arranged...I wonder if that's Colorado's penalty for throwing him out there for an inning tonight. I was very concerned and skeptical of Colorado's motives in dealing him now, thinking they were trying to pull a fast one on somebody, which we couldn't (and can't) afford. Not at such a huge cost to us. That was my major concern and question tonight. This helps a lot.

Now, if they can get him to waive that clause giving him a player option for 2014 if he's traded, the deal becomes even more palatable.

(I still think Pomeranz will be very, very good a lot sooner than people expect, though.)

*phew* Started reading when this thread was a mere 175(!) posts long; glad there were only 'bout 3 dozen more tagged on during that time. Amazing how initial reports (which are quite often more conjecture than fact) can get us all crazy...and then when the whole story comes out there is a lot of backtracking. Hey, I'm the same way! In my Mom's words: Shoot first, ask questions later.

Anyway, two points I didn't see in this thread: 1) We have been "assured" by TPTB that Alex White's finger issue isn't the same as Adam Miller's. Maybe, maybe not. But once burned, twice shy. If he turns out to be a winner I'll worry about it then depending on what the Tribe has done in the meantime. If his finger blows up again...bonus, Tribe column. 2) Wasn't Detroit in the hunt for Baldy early on? If my rememberer is right then we just played the Red Sux/skankees kind of poker. Addition by subtraction. Since we are neck-and-neck with them in the race right now we've just taken one of their potential pieces of ammunition. (And if they weren't trying to get him - well, ignore #2).

All in all I think the trade has more upside than not. Of course, like most anything else in sports, it IS a crapshoot. Reference this exchange earlier:

Erie Warrior wrote:

e0y2e3 wrote:Yeah I think they have a ton of faith in Choo coming back, Santana continuing to develop, and Kip and Chiz next year.

Blind faith? Scary. I think I like it.

IMHO, the comment of the thread. If you are going to follow a team and not be the one in charge of the operation you have to have blind faith that things will work out. THAT, my friends, is being a sports fan - in a nutshell. Again, just my opinion, FWIW. Scary. Frustrating. Heart-stopping. Blue-streak-swearing. Adult-beverage-of-your-choice swilling. And in the end it is FUN! Gawd I love it!!!

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

I like the trade. As Tripods pointed out, White is damaged goods, and i've seen the what can happen to stud prospects with finger issues. No problem with that. Pomeranz might be greatm who knows. Would have loved to get Wiggz, but i'm fine with the deal.

I will say i'm mildly concerned about Ubaldo going from the NL, espeically the NL West with it's pitcher friendly ballparks to the AL with it's deeper lineup.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I like the trade. As Tripods pointed out, White is damaged goods, and i've seen the what can happen to stud prospects with finger issues. No problem with that. Pomeranz might be greatm who knows. Would have loved to get Wiggz, but i'm fine with the deal.

I will say i'm mildly concerned about Ubaldo going from the NL, espeically the NL West with it's pitcher friendly ballparks to the AL with it's deeper lineup.

Time will tell, but I think this is win.

I know this is almost entirely confined to the NL, and someone already pointed this out, but Ubaldo is 5th overall in ERA on the road since 2009, and 4th in FIP in that timespan. Again that is almost all in the NL but it sounds really good to hear that.

It sucks to lose Pomz, but I do appreciate the FO showing some balls and making a move.

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:I know this is almost entirely confined to the NL, and someone already pointed this out, but Ubaldo is 5th overall in ERA on the road since 2009, and 4th in FIP in that timespan. Again that is almost all in the NL but it sounds really good to hear that.

metalhead9x9 wrote:Yeah, Ubaldo's had a proven track record and our two blue-chippers aren't sure things, but it'd be a bit more reassuring if Ubaldo hasn't lost some mph's on his fastball. Plus that funky delivery doesn't exactly scream longevity.

FTR: these are two real concerns. Things we all should worry about and things we have to put faith in our front office to handle. Also if they don't handle it, they are things that will possibly sink this club.

That said, you will notice that during Adverb_Melty's 80 post melt neither of these things were mentioned. Nor was levity taken.

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:I know this is almost entirely confined to the NL, and someone already pointed this out, but Ubaldo is 5th overall in ERA on the road since 2009, and 4th in FIP in that timespan. Again that is almost all in the NL but it sounds really good to hear that.

What's FIP?

I'd be lying to you if I said I knew the in and outs of that statistic, but its a sabermetric one (you either love it or hate it). But it is adjusted to ERA and it adjusts for how good or bad a pitchers defense is. It stands for Fielding Independent Pitching. Pretty much accounts for everything a pitcher is in control of, regardless of how good or poor the defense is behind the pitcher.

I've got a huge mancrush on Bat Masterson, bet when you watch a guy like Verlander... We just did not have a guy in our system who could go toe to toe with the Verlanders, Lee's, Halliday's, CC's of the playoff world. Now we do. Could Pomeranz be that guy? Certainly, and I hope he does make it to that level. But as was pointed out earlier, that level would have peaked way past the current 3-4 year window that has opened up for the club.

As far as Ubaldo's health, that is a real concern this year. But considering that he's probably not 100% right now and is still effective; it gives me hope in the next 3 years (apparently we control him thru 2014 per ESPN) we will see 100% Ubaldo. And that is just awesome.

bookelly wrote:I've got a huge mancrush on Bat Masterson, bet when you watch a guy like Verlander... We just did not have a guy in our system who could go toe to toe with the Verlanders, Lee's, Halliday's, CC's of the playoff world. Now we do. Could Pomeranz be that guy? Certainly, and I hope he does make it to that level. But as was pointed out earlier, that level would have peaked way past the current 3-4 year window that has opened up for the club.

As far as Ubaldo's health, that is a real concern this year. But considering that he's probably not 100% right now and is still effective; it gives me hope in the next 3 years (apparently we control him thru 2014 per ESPN) we will see 100% Ubaldo. And that is just awesome.

The trade itself is fine and I'm really glad this front office finally showed some guts. I'm just a little leery of going this big with a 53-51 team that's likely to be in 85-89 win territory again next year. The Central isn't always going to be this bad. But either way, we appeared to pay fair market value and it's fun to have our team land the big name for once.

And like Rob Neyer said, even if you stink next year, you flip Jimenez and recoup some prospects. Antonetti and his staff are professionals and their job is to evaluate moves like this. Let's hope they were right.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

1/27/09: Signed four-year, $10 million contract w/ 2013-14 club options. 2011: $2.8 million, 2012: $4.2 million, 2013: $5.75 million club option ($1M buyout), 2014: $8 million club option ($1 million buyout) 2014 option only if 2013 option is exercised (may void 2014 if traded) 2013 option increases to $6.75 million with 2012 Cy Young; $6.25 million with 2nd or 3rd place in 2013 Cy Young vote 2014 option increases to $9 million with 2013 Cy Young or 450 IP in 2012-13; $8.5 million with 2nd or 3rd place in 2013 Cy Young vote Jimenez may void 2014 if traded Performance bonuses: $50,000 each for 200, 210, 220, 230, 240 IP Award bonuses: $100,000 for Cy Young ($50,000 for 2nd-5th in vote); $100,000 each for MVP, WS MVP; $75,000 for LCS MVP; $25,000 each for Gold Glove, All-Star selection

Ubaldo's contract. You are correct sir...he has the option to terminate in 2014 if traded.

It certainly indicates that there really is a new sheriff in town and it aint Shapiro since I don't think Shap makes that trade if he was the GM. He must not have hated it though since he didn't veto it.

I think the front office must be pretty comfortable with their drafting strategy and recent selections and think the drafting success will continue. Otherwise I don't think they trade away their 2 best pitching prospects.

We really need to sign Howard now to restock the future starting pitching. He's a high ceiling guy and we don't have many of those left now.

We also need to trade for some offense now...otherwise I think we still don't make the playoffs or even if we do win a series.

I like the trade because it heralds in a new era for this organisation. It is now a ball club that really will try everything to improve a team that is in playoff contention. Although there is no doubting Ubaldo's stuff, whether he regains his velocity or not he still walks a lot of batters and I am shocked it cost that much to get a guy who is struggling and has health concerns buzzing around him. It seems like those four prospects we gave up should have been able to get us an ace who is also having a decent year.

I hope this isn't the Colon trade in reverse.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote:I like the trade because it heralds in a new era for this organisation. It is now a ball club that really will try everything to improve a team that is in playoff contention. Although there is no doubting Ubaldo's stuff, whether he regains his velocity or not he still walks a lot of batters and I am shocked it cost that much to get a guy who is struggling and has health concerns buzzing around him. It seems like those four prospects we gave up should have been able to get us an ace who is also having a decent year.

I hope this isn't the Colon trade in reverse.

Wait, I thought we got raped?

I'm kind of with you on the cost. It does seem like a lot. But again, you don't often see a guy with2more years left get traded. The high cost is because he isn't just a rental.

Jimenez and Masterson make a potent 1-2 punch, one that could win a playoff series.

Steep price, though. It's always exciting to see home grown talent realize their potential before our eyes. This deal could help both teams. If both Pom and White develop, the Rocks will have a nice looking rotation for years.

I lived out there for a couple of years, so I keep tabs on them and try to hit Coors when we visit. I think we all will be watching these guy's development over the next few years.

Just saw the news this morning. Initial reaction was a total meltdown, but after giving it a few minutes thought:

It's about damn time.

You can't sketch more than an outline about what the team will look like in 2013-2016, when you can legitimately (not just wishingly) expect Pomz or White to contribute. To get Ubaldo now, when the Indians have a chance to compete for the next few years in a highly flawed AL Central, is an excellent move. If Ubaldo gets hurt, well - that sucks, but the Indians took their shot, and shit happens. (The same goes for Colorado if Pomz blows out his elbow and Alex White has the second coming of Adam Miller's finger)) If the team around Ubaldo collapses, then the Indians can still recover some value next year or the year after.

Ubaldo has been excellent outside of Colorado. Of the pitchers on the staff, only Ubaldo has the chance to do something insane like go 9-2 with a sub-2 ERA the rest of the year similar to CC in Milwaukee.

Thumbs up on this trade, thumbs up for getting what looks like a live bat for the OC, and let's see if they can get Ludwick.

metalhead9x9 wrote:Yeah, Ubaldo's had a proven track record and our two blue-chippers aren't sure things, but it'd be a bit more reassuring if Ubaldo hasn't lost some mph's on his fastball. Plus that funky delivery doesn't exactly scream longevity.

FTR: these are two real concerns. Things we all should worry about and things we have to put faith in our front office to handle. Also if they don't handle it, they are things that will possibly sink this club.

That said, you will notice that during Adverb_Melty's 80 post melt neither of these things were mentioned. Nor was levity taken.

Just sayin'

Actually, I made ten posts before you started jumping on me, most of which were in reaction to the now erroneous reports that Kipnis was also involved. And I repeatedly mentioned my concerns with his health and declining performance...that's why I kept talking about the risk. Everything else was just arguing with you.

IF he really is healthy--and being able to verify helps--this trade does help. That add-on was huge, and not apparently part of the original deal. Hate giving up Pomeranz and he's gonna he a good one, but right or wrong, this is a clear sign we're contending now. They have to step up.

Except for this:If it’s the 2011 Jimenez – the version who threw one of the single worst innings of the season Saturday night – the trade could be another miscue on par with the Indians not receiving a single high-impact player from the trades of CC Sabathia(notes), Cliff Lee(notes) and Victor Martinez(notes).

When it's all said and done this is exactly right. I said it before in the The Wrap, you benefit form prospects by them becoming players or trading them for one (or more).But when your resources are limited you just better be right a lot more often than you're wrong.

Hopefully they're right about UJ's health and hopefully the fact they can't hit doesn't last or doesn't matter.

They microwaved the process last night.

Stunning.

“Here’s the thing,” the scout said Friday. “If you have a chance to get a known quantity, someone who has been there and done that, you do it. Do you understand?”

Ubaldo Jimenez is 27 years old. He arrived in 2007 with an odd delivery in which his arms seem to cantilever in the wrong direction. Somehow he coaxed 100-mph fastballs from that funk. Last year, his fastball, splitter, slider and curveball played together with harmonic beauty. Jimenez started 13-1 with a 1.15 ERA – one of the best starts in history and the blossoming of a toolset that reminded scouts why they value projection over production.

It’s that sort of dreaming that has birthed the prospect revolution. It’s funny: The majority of scouts employed by baseball teams file reports on amateur and minor league players, and the scouts bellyache about the overvaluation of the very prospects whose existence necessitates their employment.

Baseball’s prospect fetish is more pragmatic than some font of avant-garde theory. In a nutshell: Prospects are cheap. Whether it’s the Indians, with their revenues in the bottom 10, or the New York Yankees, everybody likes a sale. So the smartest teams horde prospects and use them judiciously – sometimes to trade for the best player on the market, like the Indians did with Jimenez, and other times to complement their major league team, as they’ve done with third baseman Lonnie Chisenhall(notes) and second baseman Jason Kipnis(notes).

Also you had made three posts between two threads (I counted) before I pointed out that you and everyone else was melting over a bullshit MLB Trade Rumors hit that included a player that was playing in a trade.

Except for this:If it’s the 2011 Jimenez – the version who threw one of the single worst innings of the season Saturday night – the trade could be another miscue on par with the Indians not receiving a single high-impact player from the trades of CC Sabathia(notes), Cliff Lee(notes) and Victor Martinez(notes).

I think Masterson may have something to say about that....

I'm going to give a kid who was in the process of being dealt a bit of leeway on last night.

Plan is to get his hip and all else 100% and let him be the front of the rotation leader for the next two years for a young team that hopefully development (MLB development) on warp speed.

e0y2e3 wrote:I just read every melty post you made in this thread Admelty, never once did you actually talk about health concerns. Instead you made up about 45 other reasons to be pissy about the trade.

Even my arch nemesis Poove agreed w/ me.

Keep talking if you want, but it would serve you to STFU and let it go, I have. But you keep on spinning and there is nothing I hate more than assfucks spinning what I say into inaccurate bullshit.

I really don't see where I was spinning what you said, but yes, fine, let's let this go. I didn't like the initial reports last night and I had major concerns. Maybe I didn't explain my positions as clearly as I thought...I was pretty riled up. Moving on.

e0y2e3 wrote:Also you had made three posts between two threads (I counted) before I pointed out that you and everyone else was melting over a bullshit MLB Trade Rumors hit that included a player that was playing in a trade.

Shall I go back and count how many your bullshit melty total is?

It wasn't just an MLB Trade Rumors hit...it was being widely reported by several reputable sources on Twitter. And players can be in the starting lineup when they're traded and pulled when the deal goes down. It happens quite often. (like with Ubaldo last night!) Hence, my "meltdown." I calmed down pretty quick when the reports were clarified. But for a while there, this thing did look real bad.

Saw Antonetti in an interview where he said teams were overvaluing prospects in this market.

Even when a pitching prospect hits, it can still take years of MLB time to let him emerge as a star. Don't forget Cliff Lee wasn't even on the 2007 playoff rotation. I would have traded the prospect that was cliff lee for 2.5 years of his peak service time.

This trade makes more sense when you look at what the Indians really were trading for. The Indians feel they got much more then Ubaldo. No doubt they're hoping they also get back a lot of the fans they lost in the victor and lee trades.

In my mind this trade also makes it imperative they pick up Carmona's and Sizemore's options, keep Marson around for the bench and not deal Choo, which was something I thought they would explore this offseason. Next year is all hands on deck. The Indians should be buyers this offseason, as well, looking for an upgrade at first base or catcher to put pressure on both LaPorta and Santana to improve along with a right-handed OF stick.

This changes the franchise's trajectory. there is some urgency to win in 2012.

At first I was a bit uneasy about this trade, but White already has finger problems, Pomeranz will not be a full-year starting pitcher for us until at least 2013, and the other two were nothing significant in my eyes.

I like the Orlando Cabrera trade a LOT! Neal is their top OF prospect and reminds me of Brantley. A pure, consistent athletic hitter.

The more I think about this, the more I like it. As HORRIBLE as this team has played for 2 months, by some miracle, they are only a game and a half out. Our offense is bound to get a little better. This move really sets us up for a nice run again nice season. Ballsy and VERY risky move....but after years of Shapiro, it is a breath of fresh air to have a GM take action by the balls. Our rotation is going to be nasty.

UbaldoMastersonTomlinCarmonaCarrassco/Huff/Gomez/possible FA

If Carmona gets his head back, swap him an Tomlin and we have the third best starting 3 in baseball.