- which modifiers and modifier brands (softboxes, beauty dishes, umbrellas, etc) are the most "color neutral" ? Do the cheap modifiers affect the color temperature more than the expensive ones ? Does it change between different products inside of the same brand ?

I ask because right now I have two different lighting setups: Nikon speedlights + cheap phottix umbrellas and Elinchrom system (3 lights) with portalite softboxes and a rotalux octabox. A while back, I made a couple of DIY light modifiers (softbox with aluminium foil and white paper as a diffusion sheet, etc). The Elinchrom and the speedlight setup differ significantly in color temperature and so did the light that came out of my DIY softbox vs the phottix umbrella (in post, when correcting for the umbrella, the other light goes in the magenta direction, and vice versa, when correcting for the softbox with the white paper, the umbrella was going in the green direction...).

Is the only solution to shoot with one kind of lights and brand at a time ? Do you guys mix different modifiers together ? The difference I noticed was not excessive, but enough to get slightly different skin tones in the same photo depending on which light was hitting which part of the subject ! If using only one light, there is of course no issue because you can correct for that light and the whole photo will have the same temperature/tint. As soon as you add a second light, both lights must have the exact same color temperature (I am not talking about gelling for bigger differences in light temperatures used for effect) or you get weird color casts in some parts of the photos, even if that difference is not very pronounced.

I can't speak to other brands, but PCB Einsteins have a special setting to maximize color temp consistency at different outputs

- which modifiers and modifier brands (softboxes, beauty dishes, umbrellas, etc) are the most "color neutral" ? Do the cheap modifiers affect the color temperature more than the expensive ones ? Does it change between different products inside of the same brand ?

I don't think you can generalize, but see my response below on the best way to deal with the issue

No, DIY varies as much as anything. For instance, common white paper is almost never color neutral and I would imagine bed sheets are the same (never used them myself for anything other than sleeping though.)

Is the only solution to shoot with one kind of lights and brand at a time ?

Without a doubt, this is the best solution if this is really a concern. I would add using the same brand modifiers with the same brand lights at the same time.

Do you guys mix different modifiers together ?

I do and it is sometimes a problem as you have noticed

The difference I noticed was not excessive, but enough to get slightly different skin tones in the same photo depending on which light was hitting which part of the subject ! If using only one light, there is of course no issue because you can correct for that light and the whole photo will have the same temperature/tint. As soon as you add a second light, both lights must have the exact same color temperature (I am not talking about gelling for bigger differences in light temperatures used for effect) or you get weird color casts in some parts of the photos, even if that difference is not very pronounced.

Thanks for reading.

This comes up in many different contexts. I do a lot of product photography work and getting true/ consistent color is important to the point where I also have to consider the color bias of my background paper, fill cards (e.g., foam core) etc. When I shoot portraits it can also affect skins tones, hair color, clothing, etc. The one brand lights & modifiers is the best solution. Then do the best you can with everything else.

Lots of white papers and some white fabrics have UV whiteness enhancers added to them.

I bought a set of cheap Chinese strip softboxes because the manufacturer of my studio strobes doesn't sell strip softboxes. The first tests with the new strip softboxes showed that there was a very noticeable color cast.

Testing with a ColorChecker Passport showed me that my studio strobes had a color temperature of about 5200 with the 7" metal reflector, about 5300-5400 with the manufacturer's softboxes or the strip softboxes without any diffusers, and 6200 with the strip softbox diffusers installed.

Doing a simple WB correction left a tint so that skin tones were no longer accurate. The only way to get accurate colors was to do a full color profile with the ColorChecker Passport.

I am pretty sure the WB and color tint problems are due to UV enhancers in the diffuser fabric. I'm still trying to find a solution, which may involve begging the studio strobe manufacturer to sell me some diffuser material so I can make new diffusers.

If at all possible I recommend you stick with one manufacturer for your diffusers. If you mix diffuser manufacturers don't be surprised if you have problems with colors matching. You can even have problems if you buy a new diffuser that is exactly the same as an old one since fabrics yellow and change the color balance with time.

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Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Lots of white papers and some white fabrics have UV whiteness enhancers added to them.

Didn't know that, thanks !

I bought a set of cheap Chinese strip softboxes because the manufacturer of my studio strobes doesn't sell strip softboxes. The first tests with the new strip softboxes showed that there was a very noticeable color cast.

Testing with a ColorChecker Passport showed me that my studio strobes had a color temperature of about 5200 with the 7" metal reflector, about 5300-5400 with the manufacturer's softboxes or the strip softboxes without any diffusers, and 6200 with the strip softbox diffusers installed.

I will do the same thing, with every flash / modifier combination that I have ( I will even measure the bounced light off of my reflector ) to have a complete list of what can be mixed together (probably not much outside of the same brand).

Doing a simple WB correction left a tint so that skin tones were no longer accurate. The only way to get accurate colors was to do a full color profile with the ColorChecker Passport.

I am pretty sure the WB and color tint problems are due to UV enhancers in the diffuser fabric. I'm still trying to find a solution, which may involve begging the studio strobe manufacturer to sell me some diffuser material so I can make new diffusers.

I asked Elinchrom the same to sell me some diffuser material, and they told me that they used to sell it at a per surface price, but that they've stopped ! Too bad.

If at all possible I recommend you stick with one manufacturer for your diffusers. If you mix diffuser manufacturers don't be surprised if you have problems with colors matching. You can even have problems if you buy a new diffuser that is exactly the same as an old one since fabrics yellow and change the color balance with time.

Didn't think of the difference that will come from aging. Again, good point.

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Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Bangkok ? I will be visiting Bangkok this summer ! How do you like it for cityscapes / street photography ?

I can't speak to other brands, but PCB Einsteins have a special setting to maximize color temp consistency at different outputs

- which modifiers and modifier brands (softboxes, beauty dishes, umbrellas, etc) are the most "color neutral" ? Do the cheap modifiers affect the color temperature more than the expensive ones ? Does it change between different products inside of the same brand ?

I don't think you can generalize, but see my response below on the best way to deal with the issue

No, DIY varies as much as anything. For instance, common white paper is almost never color neutral and I would imagine bed sheets are the same (never used them myself for anything other than sleeping though.)

I guess it begins to be a problem as soon as you try to mix everything together.

Is the only solution to shoot with one kind of lights and brand at a time ?

Without a doubt, this is the best solution if this is really a concern. I would add using the same brand modifiers with the same brand lights at the same time.

Do you guys mix different modifiers together ?

I do and it is sometimes a problem as you have noticed

The difference I noticed was not excessive, but enough to get slightly different skin tones in the same photo depending on which light was hitting which part of the subject ! If using only one light, there is of course no issue because you can correct for that light and the whole photo will have the same temperature/tint. As soon as you add a second light, both lights must have the exact same color temperature (I am not talking about gelling for bigger differences in light temperatures used for effect) or you get weird color casts in some parts of the photos, even if that difference is not very pronounced.

Thanks for reading.

This comes up in many different contexts. I do a lot of product photography work and getting true/ consistent color is important to the point where I also have to consider the color bias of my background paper, fill cards (e.g., foam core) etc. When I shoot portraits it can also affect skins tones, hair color, clothing, etc. The one brand lights & modifiers is the best solution. Then do the best you can with everything else.

Glad to see that I am not the only one having trouble matching different color temperatures !

Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Bangkok ? I will be visiting Bangkok this summer ! How do you like it for cityscapes / street photography ?

Cheers !

It is like any foreign city, you will find lots of things that are different than you are used to and interesting to photograph. Sometimes it is the person on the street, sometimes the buildings, and sometime the combination.

Of course the tourist attractions like the Royal Palace and the various temples should be visited and they are always good subjects for photographs. Chinatown can offer some good opportunities for photography. Check the guide books for historical buildings, which are fast disappearing in BKK.

I have lived here long enough that it isn't really foreign to me anymore but I'm still fascinated by things the ordinary Thais rely on such as street markets. You can buy just about anything in them from fresh foods to toys to clothing to cell phones. It is the people there that are my center of attention. Outside BKK is a floating market - your hotel can help you arrange a trip there.

Street food is everywhere and if it is cooked and served up to you it is generally safe to eat and usually very good tasting. If you like very spicy food you will be in heaven. If very spicy is too much just say mai pet (which means not spicy and is pronounced like "my pet" in English)

Just don't eat papaya pok pok, which is a salad of shredded green papaya mixed with crushed live land crab and various other things - the crabs are a sure way to get BKK Belly and leave you in love with your toilet seat and force a quick trip to either the drugstore (chemist) or hospital for antibiotics. Even if they don't add the crabs for you they generally don't wash the mortar and pestle between uses, even in fancy restaurants, so be warned. papaya is pronounce "pah pah yai" where the "a" is like in "ah".

By the way, the street markets along Sukhumvit between the corner of Soi 3(across Sukhumvit it is Soi 4) and Asoke are ripoffs.

Pick up a BTS elevated map, which will show you the routes for both the BTS and the MRT subway.

For shopping visit MBK (BTS Stadium Station) or the Platinum Mall on Phetchaburi Rd. Both Pantip Plaza (electronics, software, DVDs, cameras, etc) and Platinum Mall are within walking distance of the BTS Ratchathewi Station. They are shown on the BTS map. Across the street from the Platinum Mall is an open air clothing market. It is fun to wander through it looking for clothing but don't expect to find a large selection if you are a 6' overweight farang (Thai for foreigner).

A good day trip from BKK is to Ayuthaya by bus, returning on the dinner boat. A half day at Muang Boran is good - you can probably hire a taxi for 2000 Bt to take you there, through the park, and return you. Another day trip is by bus to Bridge Over the River Kwai, a ride on the railroad, lunch, a jaunt on a long tailed boat on the river Kwai, and return.

Chiang Mai is a nice place to visit. Get a private sleeper car in the late night train so you will be awake when you leave the flat central plains and enter the mountains. Be sure to tour the various factories where they make umbrellas, furniture, and pottery. A trip up Doi Suthep is a must. The night market is a good place to visit and you should go to a performance at the Old Chiang Mai Cultural Center

Lots of dogs are street animals (soi dogs) but people feed them and sometimes do more to care for them. In the cool (no such thing as cold to a Westerner in BKK) season they will put old tee shirts on the dogs to help keep them warm. They sleep just about anyplace they want. Most are friendly but don't count on it - some of them will bite.

There are also soi cats too and they are likewise well treated. Again most are friendly but that can vary. Many are welcomed into the street markets since they help keep the rodents down.

The BKK adult entertainment areas of Nana Entertainment Plaza and Soi Cowboy are interesting but pale by comparison the Walking Street in Pattaya. Forget Patpong in BKK - it is a complete rip off area.

-- hide signature --

Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Bangkok ? I will be visiting Bangkok this summer ! How do you like it for cityscapes / street photography ?

Cheers !

It is like any foreign city, you will find lots of things that are different than you are used to and interesting to photograph. Sometimes it is the person on the street, sometimes the buildings, and sometime the combination.

Of course the tourist attractions like the Royal Palace and the various temples should be visited and they are always good subjects for photographs. Chinatown can offer some good opportunities for photography. Check the guide books for historical buildings, which are fast disappearing in BKK.

I have lived here long enough that it isn't really foreign to me anymore but I'm still fascinated by things the ordinary Thais rely on such as street markets. You can buy just about anything in them from fresh foods to toys to clothing to cell phones. It is the people there that are my center of attention. Outside BKK is a floating market - your hotel can help you arrange a trip there.

Street food is everywhere and if it is cooked and served up to you it is generally safe to eat and usually very good tasting. If you like very spicy food you will be in heaven. If very spicy is too much just say mai pet (which means not spicy and is pronounced like "my pet" in English)

Just don't eat papaya pok pok, which is a salad of shredded green papaya mixed with crushed live land crab and various other things - the crabs are a sure way to get BKK Belly and leave you in love with your toilet seat and force a quick trip to either the drugstore (chemist) or hospital for antibiotics. Even if they don't add the crabs for you they generally don't wash the mortar and pestle between uses, even in fancy restaurants, so be warned. papaya is pronounce "pah pah yai" where the "a" is like in "ah".

By the way, the street markets along Sukhumvit between the corner of Soi 3(across Sukhumvit it is Soi 4) and Asoke are ripoffs.

Pick up a BTS elevated map, which will show you the routes for both the BTS and the MRT subway.

For shopping visit MBK (BTS Stadium Station) or the Platinum Mall on Phetchaburi Rd. Both Pantip Plaza (electronics, software, DVDs, cameras, etc) and Platinum Mall are within walking distance of the BTS Ratchathewi Station. They are shown on the BTS map. Across the street from the Platinum Mall is an open air clothing market. It is fun to wander through it looking for clothing but don't expect to find a large selection if you are a 6' overweight farang (Thai for foreigner).

A good day trip from BKK is to Ayuthaya by bus, returning on the dinner boat. A half day at Muang Boran is good - you can probably hire a taxi for 2000 Bt to take you there, through the park, and return you. Another day trip is by bus to Bridge Over the River Kwai, a ride on the railroad, lunch, a jaunt on a long tailed boat on the river Kwai, and return.

Chiang Mai is a nice place to visit. Get a private sleeper car in the late night train so you will be awake when you leave the flat central plains and enter the mountains. Be sure to tour the various factories where they make umbrellas, furniture, and pottery. A trip up Doi Suthep is a must. The night market is a good place to visit and you should go to a performance at the Old Chiang Mai Cultural Center

Lots of dogs are street animals (soi dogs) but people feed them and sometimes do more to care for them. In the cool (no such thing as cold to a Westerner in BKK) season they will put old tee shirts on the dogs to help keep them warm. They sleep just about anyplace they want. Most are friendly but don't count on it - some of them will bite.

There are also soi cats too and they are likewise well treated. Again most are friendly but that can vary. Many are welcomed into the street markets since they help keep the rodents down.

The BKK adult entertainment areas of Nana Entertainment Plaza and Soi Cowboy are interesting but pale by comparison the Walking Street in Pattaya. Forget Patpong in BKK - it is a complete rip off area.

Thank you very much for those great tips ! I might come back with more questions as soon as I start planning the trip.

Has anybody done any testing regarding the change in color temperature in the following scenarios:

- which modifiers and modifier brands (softboxes, beauty dishes, umbrellas, etc) are the most "color neutral" ? Do the cheap modifiers affect the color temperature more than the expensive ones ? Does it change between different products inside of the same brand ?

I recently bought a Cheetah Stands Ricebowl 120 because I was enticed by the $200 price tag and the results I saw online. Its a deep para style 16 sided almost circular softbox. I was concerned at first because I noticed the light it produced when using both baffles was quite warm, so I tested the color balance of all of my modifiers and found that none of them had a green / magenta shift, but they did rage from no effect on color balance to -1300K (warmer).

Then I started to analyze shoots I did in the past and found that I was shooting with modifiers that were 600-700k apart all of the time and I never noticed a color shift within the frames.

Here's a full blog post I wrote with the color temp results for 15 modifiers:

You get what you pay for. The big brands are more commonly used in fashion and product photography and therefore put in more effort to control colour temperature (which seems to me to be something that's quite difficult to achieve, otherwise they'd all do it I guess).

The last one is probably the least of your worries provided you use modifiers from the same brand (and hopefully a reputable one). I've only ever noticed a colour cast from one modifier in my lineup and that happened to be the only off-brand product I had (a sock for a beauty dish)... so go figure.

Broncolor has the best reputation for colour consistency, going so far as that with certain packs you can even tune it warmer or colder at your discretion, and they will tell you what limitiations apply to maintaining that consistency.

Shot to shot consistency is generally well controlled by the big companies, but power range consistency varies more. Broncolor does better than Profoto here and I guess it's a downward slope from there. Speedlights (at least my Nikons) are terrible at this, shifting many hundreds of Kelvin over the power range as you turn it down.

So my advice, if this is important to you:- Buy from a reputable brand- Buy matching modifiers from the same brand- Try to keep your seperate strobes powered within a few stops of eachother- Don't mix in speedlights

So my advice, if this is important to you:- Buy from a reputable brand- Buy matching modifiers from the same brand- Try to keep your seperate strobes powered within a few stops of eachother- Don't mix in speedlights

Great advice here.

Reputable brand

Absolutely, but as tests from John (previous post) show, it depends on how committed the brand is to providing color neutral fabrics and maintaining quality control from their suppliers.

Same brand

Even within brands, Westcott included, surfaces and fabrics to meet the requirements of specific products (soft silver vs diffusion vs regular silver) as well as manufacturing processes can create slight differences in color rendition from one modifier to the next. Consistent results will come from the tightness of the tolerances throughout the brand and quality control to assure that those tolerances are maintained.

Absolutely, but as tests from John (previous post) show, it depends on how committed the brand is to providing color neutral fabrics and maintaining quality control from their suppliers.

Same brand

Even within brands, Westcott included, surfaces and fabrics to meet the requirements of specific products (soft silver vs diffusion vs regular silver) as well as manufacturing processes can create slight differences in color rendition from one modifier to the next. Consistent results will come from the tightness of the tolerances throughout the brand and quality control to assure that those tolerances are maintained.

Yes, totally agree. I guess I jumped to that conclusion on basis of personal experiences, but indeed the consistency and quality control are paramount here.

In theory you'd be fine buying modifiers from a brand that has e.g. a 500K colour cast, but consistently so. So long as you don't mix in sources without that cast (including ambient light!) you can correct your WB for it easily.

I'd expect "reputable brands" to take consistency & QC seriously, therefore minimizing variation between equivalent products. I understand that managing this consistency across e.g. a beauty dish vs a silver umbrella vs a double diffused softbox is indeed a challenge! (which makes it worth the premium)

However, my B2 pack as well The Broketographers' exhibits noticeable WB issues that are outside of Profoto's published tolerances, and I also experience a major bug (my pack set at power 9.1 sends as much power as at 10). I have the confirmation from Profoto's French repair centre that other packs are affected and that a firmware should fix the issue (we'll see). So not all is rosy, even with reputable brands :D. So far frankly I find QC rather meh from Profoto or Broncolor.

Heck, Think Tank has a reputation for making tough and well manufactured bags, right ? Well you wouldn't believe how crappily the two Production Manager 40 bags that I've examined today are built behind the removable insert. One of them has a rivet missing, the other one has a rivet that doesn't properly sandwhich the structural elements in place, and both of them have extra rivet parts that are on the loose inside. Apparently $600 isn't high enough to have a rolling bag that's been properly built.

True, there's always sample variation and you should always verify your equipment yourself. And if they don't perform to spec, you can exchange them at manufacturers who guarantee those specs (good luck with that with the Chinese brands).

But take the following into consideration from those test results:

Both companies claim they control colour temperature well in "normal" mode. A 200K shift over a NINE-stop range is impressively well controlled. Broncolor claims the same in speed mode, albeit the entire range becomes a bit colder. This is also apparent from the test. Profoto makes no such claim and basically throws colour temp control out the window in freeze mode. Again, the test confirms that.

The only big surprise to me is how poor the B2 performs in that test, didn't see that coming.

Off the record, I always default to 5500k with my Move and Siros heads and it's fine in most locations. Colour casts can also come from surrounding walls/objects and this is important to keep in mind. In speed mode I add 300K and shoot away. It's dependable and predictable.

The only big surprise to me is how poor the B2 performs in that test, didn't see that coming.

Apparently it's a bug affecting some packs. Should be around +-150k (Profoto France doesn't interpret "+-150k" the same way as Profoto Sweden, but at worst it's 300k in total). But then you have to add flash tube to flash tube consistency. There is around 50k between my two tubes.

I was concerned when I noticed one of my modifiers was 1000 degrees warmer than a bare bulb on my Profoto lights. Then I tested all of my modifiers and strobes and realized that I have frequently shot multiple light portraits where there was a 600K shift light to light and never noticed it.... here's a full blog post with samples and test data: http://johngress.com/photographers-care-about-modifier-color-temperatures-portraits/

I ran a test with a lot of my modifiers to check how much light was lost for each, and noticed only 1 had a colour shift of about 600K... which was the only off-brand product coincidentally (beauty dish sock)

All others were totally spot on without any colour shift compared to each other: soft boxes with/without diffusers, reflectors, a snoot and a Para

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