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I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community

I'll admit that I haven't read the thread yet so that's on me. That said, a few things - body positivity is about significantly more things that just obesity or being over weight. Significantly more things. Racism, colorism, disability, various facial and other body related features, stature, etc. There's a lot more to it than just weight.

That said, where are you finding fat studies departments? I googled and found courses in fat studies s well as at least one book on it, but not actual university/college departments. The courses were housed in, among other departments, women's studies, sociology, and nutrition. There's also at least one article about the dwindling of such classes.

Do I think it's worth studying? Of course I do, I don't know why I wouldn't. Even if for some reason I didn't think something was worth the money and time for someone to research, who am I (or anyone else) to decide that something (anything) isn't relevant to research. That doesn't mean that I'm going to take those courses, read the (academic) articles, or necessarily care - but I also could care less about the specific aspect of chemistry that a friend of mine got a Fulbright to study (as a faculty member).

I am against reengineering our society to accommodate deadly lifestyle habits. There are a number of triggers that place us in uncomfortable situations that should lead us to make different decisions. If your clothes become too tight to fit, you have a decision – you either buy bigger clothes or you change your nutrition and fitness habits. Regardless of what you choose, at least this forced you to acknowledge that you have a problem.

Reconfiguring public areas to accommodate people who have eaten themselves out of regular-sized furniture is not helping them, it is removing a consequence of their unhealthy condition and taking away another incentive to address their condition, which enables them to continue down the road to an early death.

A society without grace and compassion is not one to emulate. "Too bad, fatty" is not a motivational strategy to help people lose weight. "It's for their own good" is one of the main ways people try to justify bullying to themselves.

Physically reconfiguring the world to enable obese people to continue growing beyond the normal infrastructure is not graceful or compassionate, it is enabling sickness, misery, and death.

So is allowing the sale of cigarettes and vaping products. One could also say that about how horrible the US is at helping people overcome addictions and the ways in which the US has put up barriers to healthcare.

I'm middle aged and still waiting for the day I meet this mythical obese person who truly believes they are perfectly healthy at that weight.

Are there folks currently in denial? Of course there are, that's human nature. Are there people who try to become an "influencer" by promoting that they are obese and don't need to lose weight for their health? Of course there are, everyone's looking for their hook, it doesn't mean they or their followers really believe it.

I don't know any obese or even overweight people who DONT wish they could just wake up in the morning having lost the weight. I don't see any movement in our society towards "glamorizing" obesity.

The only time that fat acceptance bothers me is when it tips the scale into actual untruthfulness. I recently read a bunch of posts from an influencer who runs marathons while being morbidly obese. That’s her brand. She claims she was skinnier at one point, didn’t like it and found it was too much work to stay thin, and now chooses to go about her business being happy, active, and obese. And I would applaud her for doing that, if she could actually run a marathon, but she can’t. She walks marathons, very slowly, and with pain. She has to find marathons which stay open indefinitely and then she makes the support crew wait for hours on her to finish. And then she posts triumphantly about “running” another marathon.

She’s not healthy and she can’t run a marathon, and she’s telling lies about that, and that’s not cool to me.

Because I have diabetes due to my past obesity, I’m aware that pretending obesity is just lovely and won’t hurt you isn’t a good idea. Obesity kills. Obese people - I was one - should absolutely be able to buy clothes, and sit in chairs, and go out in public without being mocked, but they should also be told the truth about the consequences of obesity.

To be fair, cheating in marathons "is a thing." I don't understand it, but she's not the only one, and if she's walking the whole 26.2 miles that puts her ahead of a lot of people claiming to have finished. Not that I'm condoning lying.

I think too much attention is given to the topic of hypothetically obese/overweight people and how they feel about their bodies and whether they're doing anything about it.

It can become a dumping ground for people with eating disorders who over-identify with grand narratives, driven by low self esteem and untreated mental health issues.

The attention and concern is shaping decisions that are being made by the Government, for everyone. It is misguided decision to drag everyone into the plight of decreasing obesity/overweight statistics to promote a "health conscious society".

It's promoting a disordered society for people who are not obese/overweight and whom it doesn't concern. The blatant advertising of calorie values on food where it's in your face.

You don't have a choice but to look at it, they won't even separate it or put it on a website. It shows a lack of concern and empathy for people who are negatively impacted by having the calorie content of food displayed.

I think too much attention is given to the topic of hypothetically obese/overweight people and how they feel about their bodies and whether they're doing anything about it.

It can become a dumping ground for people with eating disorders who over-identify with grand narratives, driven by low self esteem and untreated mental health issues.

The attention and concern is shaping decisions that are being made by the Government, for everyone. It is misguided decision to drag everyone into the plight of decreasing obesity/overweight statistics to promote a "health conscious society".

It's promoting a disordered society for people who are not obese/overweight and whom it doesn't concern. The blatant advertising of calorie values on food where it's in your face.

You don't have a choice but to look at it, they won't even separate it or put it on a website. It shows a lack of concern and empathy for people who are negatively impacted by having the calorie content of food displayed.

How is a person "negatively impacted" by having the calorie information of a meal available at the point of service? Can you explain what the harm is concisely?

My mother suffered from anorexia that put her in the hospital and had long-term consequences on her physical health. To say nothing of the obvious indication of suffering on the mental health level.

It's remarkable to me to see how people freak out about the "societal health costs" of obesity when there's a trend to show a few plus-size models, yet for decades the same people were okay with the physical and mental "societal health costs" of promoting a body ideal approaching the look of anorexia. That isn't healthier, yet it was accepted as an ideal to strive for.

Something puritanical about it I think. You have to work/suffer to be dangerously skinny, so that makes it "admirable" whereas you can be self-indulgent and become dangerously fat, so that's bad and you're a bad person who should be shamed.

There's a quote that I can't quite remember that puts it better, but it tends to be that people form there ideals and opinions after there intrinsic gut instinct. A lot of people in society have been taught that being towards underweight is the ideal, and being seen as overweight is a personal flaw. This leads to a knee jerk reaction in those people to use overweight as a dirty word, a classic insult of childhood bullies (or adult ones in some cases).

However, as there's been a push for more understanding of what it's like being an overweight person, people have come to realise that there treatment and demonisation of overweight people makes them what we call in the buissness 'a bit of a jerk'. And people don't really want to be seen as mean, so the back pedal looks something like:

In actual fact, they don't want to face the reality that they themselves have been a part of pushing - that their treatment of overweight people is unfair, cruel and undeserved.

In terms of responding to a lot of the critisism that 'body positivity' I would say this. It's the ability to be able to say 'hey, I shouldn't hate myself for the way my body looks - My worth is not intrinsically tied to my outward appearence'.

And that body positivity disconnects health and physical appearance. Because people can be healthy as they can be, be outside of the average weight due to medical conditions, and should still love themselves. People can look average weight and be unhealthy, and they should love themselves. People can want to change there appearance and still love themselves just as they are. Love yourself!

Because at the end of the day the people that don't want you to love yourself because of the way that you look, don't have your interest at heart, and they certainly don't care about your health. They just don't want to be seen as mean when they make fun of people.

I think a role of society is to apply negative pressure to behaviors that that society wishes to discourage. Being fat is a physical thing and a physical trait but it is definitely caused by behavior and personal choices. If we, as a society, want to encourage athletic health and wish to discourage being fat then I honestly don't see it as a problem that fat people are "marginalized".

That said I think society also needs to support healthy eating habits and recognize that if the cheapest foods are the highest calorie to nutrition foods that poor people will become fat and not because of poor behaviors but because they are poor and what they can afford is high calorie. Although being poor can potentially be due to poor personal choices I think in any society there will always be a certain percentage of the population that is poor, its just a bell curve I'm not sure you can ever have a society where no one is poor.

If you then try to correct behavior of being fat by increasing the costs of high calorie/nutrition foods (like a sugar tax or something) you have to match that by decreasing the costs of nutritious foods via subsidies, otherwise you are just screwing over poor people.

So for me in terms of health and what society should encourage and discourage its simple, in terms of economics and the health of the lowest economic classes then it becomes a bit more complicated in a society where high cal/ low nutrient foods are the cheapest.

There's a quote that I can't quite remember that puts it better, but it tends to be that people form there ideals and opinions after there intrinsic gut instinct. A lot of people in society have been taught that being towards underweight is the ideal, and being seen as overweight is a personal flaw. This leads to a knee jerk reaction in those people to use overweight as a dirty word, a classic insult of childhood bullies (or adult ones in some cases).

However, as there's been a push for more understanding of what it's like being an overweight person, people have come to realise that there treatment and demonisation of overweight people makes them what we call in the buissness 'a bit of a jerk'. And people don't really want to be seen as mean, so the back pedal looks something like:

In actual fact, they don't want to face the reality that they themselves have been a part of pushing - that their treatment of overweight people is unfair, cruel and undeserved.

In terms of responding to a lot of the critisism that 'body positivity' I would say this. It's the ability to be able to say 'hey, I shouldn't hate myself for the way my body looks - My worth is not intrinsically tied to my outward appearence'.

And that body positivity disconnects health and physical appearance. Because people can be healthy as they can be, be outside of the average weight due to medical conditions, and should still love themselves. People can look average weight and be unhealthy, and they should love themselves. People can want to change there appearance and still love themselves just as they are. Love yourself!

Because at the end of the day the people that don't want you to love yourself because of the way that you look, don't have your interest at heart, and they certainly don't care about your health. They just don't want to be seen as mean when they make fun of people.

Thank you! This is the same line of thinking I have, but I wasn't able to get the words to come out in a meaningful way.

Anyone and everyone can have something about them that is outwardly "acceptable" in society, but they still hate themselves. The same can be said for that someone that has something that is "unacceptable" in society but they accept it themselves as who they are. It doesn't mean that they don't want to change that about themselves. They just don't hate themselves for it.

There's a quote that I can't quite remember that puts it better, but it tends to be that people form there ideals and opinions after there intrinsic gut instinct. A lot of people in society have been taught that being towards underweight is the ideal, and being seen as overweight is a personal flaw. This leads to a knee jerk reaction in those people to use overweight as a dirty word, a classic insult of childhood bullies (or adult ones in some cases).

However, as there's been a push for more understanding of what it's like being an overweight person, people have come to realise that there treatment and demonisation of overweight people makes them what we call in the buissness 'a bit of a jerk'. And people don't really want to be seen as mean, so the back pedal looks something like:

In actual fact, they don't want to face the reality that they themselves have been a part of pushing - that their treatment of overweight people is unfair, cruel and undeserved.

In terms of responding to a lot of the critisism that 'body positivity' I would say this. It's the ability to be able to say 'hey, I shouldn't hate myself for the way my body looks - My worth is not intrinsically tied to my outward appearence'.

And that body positivity disconnects health and physical appearance. Because people can be healthy as they can be, be outside of the average weight due to medical conditions, and should still love themselves. People can look average weight and be unhealthy, and they should love themselves. People can want to change there appearance and still love themselves just as they are. Love yourself!

Because at the end of the day the people that don't want you to love yourself because of the way that you look, don't have your interest at heart, and they certainly don't care about your health. They just don't want to be seen as mean when they make fun of people.

I don't disagree that society has shunned overweight and embraced underweight but I'm not sure why the solution would be to embrace overweight as well, I think it makes more sense to just stop embracing underweight. As far as your worth being tied to your personal appearance....it sort of is to be honest. I mean for things you literally have no control over such as your sex or your race then no, that shouldn't matter, but for things you do have control over such as your weight and your hygeine and grooming then yeah...I don't really understand why society shouldn't make judgements on things like that....it is an outward sign of how much control you have.

Society should be built in such a way that it encourages the type of behaviors that maximally benefits that society and discourages the type of behaviors that harm that society. Appearance is a part of that and weight most definitely is given its connection to health issues (which you seem to dismiss as being a deflection from the "real" reason but honestly its a legitimate reason).

If we could snap our fingers and make all of society female or all of society white or all of society a brunette that wouldn't actually be better (actually it'd be worse in most cases). If we could snap our fingers and make all of society a healthy weight though....wouldn't we do that? Isn't that a goal we should be striving for? If so then isn't it's societies role to push in that direction? I think stopping the glamorization of underweight models is a part of that...but accepting that being overweight is okay somehow is definitely not part of that.

I think a role of society is to apply negative pressure to behaviors that that society wishes to discourage. Being fat is a physical thing and a physical trait but it is definitely caused by behavior and personal choices. If we, as a society, want to encourage athletic health and wish to discourage being fat then I honestly don't see it as a problem that fat people are "marginalized".

That said I think society also needs to support healthy eating habits and recognize that if the cheapest foods are the highest calorie to nutrition foods that poor people will become fat and not because of poor behaviors but because they are poor and what they can afford is high calorie. Although being poor can potentially be due to poor personal choices I think in any society there will always be a certain percentage of the population that is poor, its just a bell curve I'm not sure you can ever have a society where no one is poor.

If you then try to correct behavior of being fat by increasing the costs of high calorie/nutrition foods (like a sugar tax or something) you have to match that by decreasing the costs of nutritious foods via subsidies, otherwise you are just screwing over poor people.

So for me in terms of health and what society should encourage and discourage its simple, in terms of economics and the health of the lowest economic classes then it becomes a bit more complicated in a society where high cal/ low nutrient foods are the cheapest.

As you admit, obesity is a characteristic and not a behavior. Sure, certain behaviors can cause and sustain obesity, but you can't just decide to stop being obese one day and then be not obese the next. It doesn't work like that. So you are marginalizing people, and not behaviors, when you marginalize obese people.

It also shows an incredible lack of empathy, because while yes, the vast majority of obesity can be corrected by behavioral modifications, it is wrong to assume that it is anywhere close to easy for most people. Nobody knows anyone's individual circumstances and challenges. Successful weight loss and maintenance of that weight loss is difficult under the best of circumstances. For people who have other compounding health issues, disability, depression, poverty, extreme stress and difficulty in their lives, etc, it is significantly more difficult.

Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese. It is a big reason why depression and suicide is higher among people with obesity though. It does not create positive outcomes for their health.

I think a role of society is to apply negative pressure to behaviors that that society wishes to discourage. Being fat is a physical thing and a physical trait but it is definitely caused by behavior and personal choices. If we, as a society, want to encourage athletic health and wish to discourage being fat then I honestly don't see it as a problem that fat people are "marginalized".

That said I think society also needs to support healthy eating habits and recognize that if the cheapest foods are the highest calorie to nutrition foods that poor people will become fat and not because of poor behaviors but because they are poor and what they can afford is high calorie. Although being poor can potentially be due to poor personal choices I think in any society there will always be a certain percentage of the population that is poor, its just a bell curve I'm not sure you can ever have a society where no one is poor.

If you then try to correct behavior of being fat by increasing the costs of high calorie/nutrition foods (like a sugar tax or something) you have to match that by decreasing the costs of nutritious foods via subsidies, otherwise you are just screwing over poor people.

So for me in terms of health and what society should encourage and discourage its simple, in terms of economics and the health of the lowest economic classes then it becomes a bit more complicated in a society where high cal/ low nutrient foods are the cheapest.

As you admit, obesity is a characteristic and not a behavior. Sure, certain behaviors can cause and sustain obesity, but you can't just decide to stop being obese one day and then be not obese the next. It doesn't work like that. So you are marginalizing people, and not behaviors, when you marginalize obese people.

It also shows an incredible lack of empathy, because while yes, the vast majority of obesity can be corrected by behavioral modifications, it is wrong to assume that it is anywhere close to easy for most people. Nobody knows anyone's individual circumstances and challenges. Successful weight loss and maintenance of that weight loss is difficult under the best of circumstances. For people who have other compounding health issues, disability, depression, poverty, extreme stress and difficulty in their lives, etc, it is significantly more difficult.

Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese. It is a big reason why depression and suicide is higher among people with obesity though. It does not create positive outcomes for their health.

Not to mention that recovering from obesity is most often a slew of minor changes that add up to larger change over time... not simply one change that works magic. Unrealistic expectations on both sides are harmful.

I am not here to offend or discuss beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can't make anyone think I am beautiful if they find me ugly just as much as you can't make me think someone is beautiful if I find them ugly.
That really is not the point, in my opinion.

I remember growing up in the 90s and that was the era of the toothpick models. Nearly anorexic girls.
Critics said that magazines and fashion boutiques should not glorify unhealthy behaviors.

Then Claudia Schiffer and Naomi Campbell came along and suddenly, healthy was beautiful again. The Victoria Secret boom happened and Giselle Bundchen became the goddess of the fashion world,
Critics said that those Girls were perpetuating the idea of impossible standards.

Now, the new body positive movement is out and those same magazines are being applauded for displaying women that are not a little curvy, but severely overweight and anyone who doesn't call it beautiful, suddenly became a misogynist.

And my question is... Where are the people who 10, 20, 30 years ago, raised hell about magazines glorifying unhealthy bodies? Isn't this the same thing.
Will anyone here make the claim that a person who's 5.7 and 350lbs is healthy?

and perhaps the most pertinent question... Why is it that the "Body positive" advocates insist in pushing other people to agree with their new standard of beauty? I only ask this question because if you feel positive about your body, you don't need anyone else's approval.

and as Kimny said a few posts back... I am middle aged and still haven't seen a body positive movement member who's actually positive about their body.

I mean, I don't pay as much attention as I used to, but I don't see many (if any) magazines putting 350lb women on the cover, certainly not health or fashion related publications. Most "plus-size" models are just in the overweight range, and it's rare to see them on the cover of anything, except as a token "here, don't tell us we don't represent real women anymore, okay?" one off. There have been one or two actresses I can remember off the top of my head that did a lot of publicity at one point with the requisite admiration for their beauty, but no one holding them up as examples of good health.

ETA: One of the reasons Ashley Graham gets so much media attention and controversy is because she is unique. Her weight is always being praised/criticized/argued about, and I'm not even sure if she is technically obese or not.

I mean, I don't pay as much attention as I used to, but I don't see many (if any) magazines putting 350lb women on the cover, certainly not health or fashion related publications. Most "plus-size" models are just in the overweight range, and it's rare to see them on the cover of anything, except as a token "here, don't tell us we don't represent real women anymore, okay?" one off. There have been one or two actresses I can remember off the top of my head that did a lot of publicity at one point with the requisite admiration for their beauty, but no one holding them up as examples of good health.

ETA: One of the reasons Ashley Graham gets so much media attention and controversy is because she is unique. Her weight is always being praised/criticized/argued about, and I'm not even sure if she is technically obese or not.

Out of curiousity I googled her stats, and if the internet is to be believed, she is 5'9", 187.5 pounds, which puts her at a BMI of 27.7. Which is overweight, but not even close to obese. That shows how far off we are from a society that glorifies obesity when she is what is considered "plus size".

I mean, I don't pay as much attention as I used to, but I don't see many (if any) magazines putting 350lb women on the cover, certainly not health or fashion related publications. Most "plus-size" models are just in the overweight range, and it's rare to see them on the cover of anything, except as a token "here, don't tell us we don't represent real women anymore, okay?" one off. There have been one or two actresses I can remember off the top of my head that did a lot of publicity at one point with the requisite admiration for their beauty, but no one holding them up as examples of good health.

ETA: One of the reasons Ashley Graham gets so much media attention and controversy is because she is unique. Her weight is always being praised/criticized/argued about, and I'm not even sure if she is technically obese or not.

Ashley Graham is also quite beautiful. Couple that with however her weight/health is perceived and she's almost the perfect target for media vultures. I sure wouldn't call her obese though.