You are correct. Four fold caste system is at the top level. Under each of the four castes there are numerous sub-castes, which are known as Jati. Though Hindus mostly identify themselves with their Jati names, they all know where they fit in within the four fold caste system. Caste system is not difficult to understand once one gets the basics right.

Brahmin conversions to Islam are just hoax. It is always the Muslims who claim such conversions, but when one really digs into it there is nothing to really support such claims. People who make such claims have a self interest in doing so, mainly to elevate their social status, when living within a broad caste ridden Hindu culture.

I connect rise of Brahmins to Bollywood for this, before Independence Brahmin were not seen as a prestigious community by Muslims. but now as India's Media outlets show Brahmins as larger than life figure among Hindus some Muslim of lower class origin started adopting surnames such as pandit, palkar(Maharashtra), desai(gujarat), Mishra(UP) like kashmiri Dardic converts of Fisherman origin adopted both pandit and Bhat surname in large numbers.

its like fetisizing a community of group of people, similar thing happened with Afghans and Rajputs few centuries ago.

There is no dearth of opportunity in modern India for people, irrespective of their caste or creed

The Indian media is quick to spread stories of hate but they skip the absolute absence of caste divide in most villages in the modern era. The evidence for this last statement is the fact that kids of all backgrounds go to the same school in villages and sit and play with each other without any problem. This is the real truth of modern India - there is absolutely no untouchability

true, its good that this caste system and untouchability is dying now. in few years people will be able to design their babies and get all kind of improvements including hight, weight, face, hair-eye color, iq etc.

Thank you for that, very enlightening. The caste systems is staggeringly bewildering to me. I've always thought ALL castes are related the original four from the Law of Manu.

The system as you've explained seems deeply entrenched. There have been efforts to abolish caste since Gandhi. I was glad when I read about Dalit PM's. How did that work? Eg association with say high caste brahmins? How does caste effect Indian politics ,if at all?

From what you've told me, and from what I've read recently about caste violence, it seems there is still a long way to go.

Some one mentioned Brahmins in Pakistan converting to Islam. I can understand a Shudra converting as Islam has no caste system. Why would a Brahmin convert unless his life was in danger?

Sorry to pester you with more questions, I usually get some pretty good information when asking people involved in social customs and systems. Caste is a great example.

Gandhi was not against the caste system. He was against caste-based discrimination and untouchability.

Let me try to explain the caste system in my words and thoughts.

Jatis had a basis in tribes. Each tribe had specialised in some specific profession. Now, on this pre-existing layer of tribes, Manu's four-varna system was imposed. Tribes became Jatis, with each Jati falling into different varna's, depending on their profession. I would say that castes are a sort of metropolitanized tribes. The tribes maintained their individual identity even after the economy graduated from hunter-gatherer and sustenance agriculture to prosperous agricultural society with lots of arts, crafts and cities.

The positive discrimination in favour of those tribes and castes included in the concerned schedule of the Constitution of India ( the no.s of such tribes and castes have been increased from time to time )for govt.jobs and admissions to the institutes of higher learning has worked to a great extent in bringing these backward classes into mainstream Hinduism. Their economic status has also improved a lot. Many intermarriages are taking place between all types of castes, thus leading to a more homogenous Hindu society.
As of today, the Indian parliament is discussing a Government bill for the grant of a 10 % quota to the so-called forward castes like Brahmins, Rajputs, Thakurs and so on, who may not be well off in accordance with the government stipulated criteria of income and assets ! This requires a Constitutional Amendment as the total quota will exceed 50 % prescribed by the Supreme Court. Government proposes a Constitutional amendment to put all such quotas to 60 % totally. This is problematic as the legal experts say that 50 % cannot be exceeded. The Muslims are clamouring for a quota for themselves!

There has been no dalit prime minister in India though several have been from the 'Other Backward Classes'. There have been presidents and vice presidents from among the dalits.
Even the current Indian President is a Dalit.

I have posted this image in the forum explaining four-fold divisiona nd castes. I think posting it again will not harm anyone.

In continuation of my post no.65, I am happy to report that the bill for granting 10% quota in admissions to institutes of higher learning and for the govt.jobs in favour of the poor belonging to the ' Forward ' castes has been passed by the required two thirds majority of both houses of the Indian Parliament.

"There has been no dalit prime minister in India though several have been from the 'Other Backward Classes'. There have been presidents and vice presidents from among the dalits.
Even the current Indian President is a Dalit."

Oops I misremembered.

Gandhi was not against the caste system. He was against caste-based discrimination and untouchability.

Oh, was he not. Funny how a wrong idea can take hold. The only excuse I can give is that's it's over 30 years since I read about Gandhi , and that was mainly concentrated on the Satyagraha movement..

I do seem to remember Gandhi called the untouchables 'Harijan'; children of god. Don't think he invented the term, but popularised it .Of course he would not have advocated abolishing the caste system. He was a conservative Hindu.

Harijan - He did. Don't take it hard. I know only about 20% of what I knew at the age of 16. I have forgotten a lot in these 60 years. It happens. Now something for you which will show you the enormity of caste problem in India. And everyone (except perhaps the dalits) is proud of their caste or clan and nobody wants to leave it.

Move afoot to collect OBC data afresh in Census 2021 - Times of India
"The Socio-Econoic Caste Census (SECC), a response-based exercise requiring respondents to tell their castes to the enumerator, threw up a mountain of data that is packed with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. SECC conducted between 2011 and 2013, threw up 4,600,000 castes, sub-castes and clan names, making their categorization a mammoth task. As a result, the caste data is yet to be released."

That means a caste or clan for every 300 persons in India. I think, they have added one extra zero but a cast or clan for every 3000 people seems possible to me. India is a veritable kaleidoscope.

Harijan - He did. Don't take it hard. I know only about 20% of what I knew at the age of 16. I have forgotten a lot in these 60 years. It happens. Now something for you which will show you the enormity of caste problem in India. And everyone (except perhaps the dalits) is proud of their caste or clan and nobody wants to leave it.

Move afoot to collect OBC data afresh in Census 2021 - Times of India
"The Socio-Econoic Caste Census (SECC), a response-based exercise requiring respondents to tell their castes to the enumerator, threw up a mountain of data that is packed with inconsistencies and inaccuracies. SECC conducted between 2011 and 2013, threw up 4,600,000 castes, sub-castes and clan names, making their categorization a mammoth task. As a result, the caste data is yet to be released."

That means a caste or clan for every 300 persons in India. I think, they have added one extra zero but a cast or clan for every 3000 people seems possible to me. India is a veritable kaleidoscope.

It is most unlikely that there are so many castes in India that for every three thousand persons there is one caste. There are priests in every big Pilgrimage city like Varanasi ( Benares ), Prayagraj ( Allahabad ), Gaya etc. They have records of persons who have visited their city for Pilgrimage, these records being kept for a number of generations. But nothing voluminous requiring computerized databases. They ask your name, father's name and caste and they locate the names of your parents/grandparents/great grandparents etc who did the pilgrimage to that particular place from a thick notebook and show you the entries therein including the year of the pilgrimage and the names of your forefathers. Had there been an extraordinarily large number of castes, it would have been impossible to locate the names of your forefathers. The only problem is to locate the right priest.

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