Much better episode this week, even with Rick waffling. Merle ( Michael Rooker ) was great. Heres where I think the finale is headed:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Now that Rick has declared our group as a democracy, I think they vote to run but before they do they set up the prison as a zombie flooded trap for the Gov and his troops. They leave a couple of well placed sharpshooters to draw the Gov in and then swarm them with zombies. This takes care of their Governor problems but makes the prison uninhabitable, so they move on.

I think Rick's waffling was perfectly in line with the writer's portrayal of him over the course of the show. He makes decisions...hard decisions...then often doubts himself. I think at this point, the weight of those decisions has become too much for him to bear and he realizes he needs to share this process with everyone because it's driving him mad (visions of Lori come to mind).

Spoiler for Hiden:

I really liked the scene between Daryl and Zombie Merle. The anger and love portrayed at the same time during that scene by Daryl was excellently portrayed and written. You could see the entire range of complexity inherent in their relationship played out during that scene. Also, I found myself sad to see Merle go as a character. He was on the road to redemption in my opinion. While his sacrifice may have been considered an end to that road, he made that sacrifice for Daryl...eventually I think he would have come to a point in which he would've made it for everyone in the gang.

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I think Rick's waffling was perfectly in line with the writer's portrayal of him over the course of the show. He makes decisions...hard decisions...then often doubts himself. I think at this point, the weight of those decisions has become too much for him to bear and he realizes he needs to share this process with everyone because it's driving him mad (visions of Lori come to mind).

Spoiler for Hiden:

I really liked the scene between Daryl and Zombie Merle. The anger and love portrayed at the same time during that scene by Daryl was excellently portrayed and written. You could see the entire range of complexity inherent in their relationship played out during that scene. Also, I found myself sad to see Merle go as a character. He was on the road to redemption in my opinion. While his sacrifice may have been considered an end to that road, he made that sacrifice for Daryl...eventually I think he would have come to a point in which he would've made it for everyone in the gang.

I think we missed a couple of steps with Rick getting to that point, though. It felt written more than natural.

And speaking of writing, I'm not sure that last scene qualifies, exactly. The extent of it in the script would be

Once again, this was a Scott Gimple-written (incoming showrunner) episode , directed by make-up expert/co executive producer Nicotero. A dream team if you will. I'm feeling better and better about next season, even if being showrunner is a lot different than being a staff writer on the show.

Really dug it, Gimp seems to really love having lots of scenes of key characters in close-up. Along with bitten-off fingers.

Michael Rooker was a hoot, and at times borderline scary (he lets you know when he disagrees with you ), on Talking Dead last night (along with Morrissey/Governor). Daryl will be on next week, and presumably one more surprise guest.

Danai Gurira, who joined the cast this season as Michonne and had her strongest showcase episode yet in "Clear," also vouches for Gimple. "A lot of the episodes I'm heavily involved in, he wrote," Gurira told us earlier this year. "He'd be on set and we worked very intimately together. I deeply respect him as a writer and a creative voice. I trust him a great deal, he's a great artist."

Then you haven't been paying attention to Merle and Daryl's backstory when it was presented in previous episodes. There was a reason for the combination of rage and sorrow in his actions with Merle last night. There was a complexity to their relationship that played out in that final scene perfectly. My claim that it was well written is also based on the stories leading up to that scene, not just that moment.

And Rosebud is a framing device, not the actual plot of Citizen Kane.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:06:30 PM by hepcat »

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Then you haven't been paying attention to Merle and Daryl's backstory when it was presented in previous episodes. There was a reason for the combination of rage and sorrow in his actions with Merle last night. There was a complexity to their relationship that played out in that final scene perfectly.

Was that relationship the sole character arc for both characters? No. But contrary to what you think, Citizen Kane wasn't soley about Charles Foster Kane's childhood either.

Everything you mention, the rage and sorrow, that was acting. The way we watched it played out, including a fantastic close up of Merle's eyes, that was directing. There was some writing in previous episodes that directly influenced the choices made by the actor and director there, but for this episode, the writers just put them in that space and let them go.

I explained myself. You explained yourself. I disagree with your belief that the writers didn't contribute to that final scene.

Don't let it keep you up at night.

You're missing the point. You said, "The anger and love portrayed at the same time during that scene by Daryl was excellently portrayed and written." That scene wasn't written so much as acted and directed. It's not a question of belief or not. This moment was created in the writers' room as they mapped out the season, not by a particular writer of this episode.

I explained myself. You explained yourself. I disagree with your belief that the writers didn't contribute to that final scene.

Don't let it keep you up at night.

You're missing the point. You said, "The anger and love portrayed at the same time during that scene by Daryl was excellently portrayed and written." That scene wasn't written so much as acted and directed. It's not a question of belief or not. This moment was created in the writers' room as they mapped out the season, not by a particular writer of this episode.

Good night.

Check The Following thread, apparently you weren't aware that hepcat gets to define for everyone what is "well written" and what isn't.

Just to play devil's advocate, and as much as I am a raving fan of this show, there were numerous elements I could easily pick apart as poor writing in the last few weeks' episodes. Plotting alone has been terribly contrived to stretch the season out longer and force the confrontation to the season finale. Characters' flipping back and forth with sudden revelations/insights, inconsistencies in timing and travel, all the Governor's new super powers (with one eye!), cheap tricks like the end of last weeks' Andrea episode... I could easily argue this show has shown plenty of poorly written elements.

Luckily they make up for it with some really excellent character moments and classic lines of dialog, fantastic action and zombie gore, plus some really great acting and directing and production values. Would I argue to someone the show is not "well written" overall? Hell no! But then I would say the same for The Following...

Even know it was the Governor that killed his brother? Will he find out?

It was at the meeting place, and Michone has a pretty good idea where he was going.

Just wanted to say that I got caught up arguing semantics yesterday. With fresh eyes this morning, I realize that while Hep's literal comment was about the writing of the last scene, his later comments were about the writing overall, while I was still trying to point out that the specific scene wasn't about the writing.

At first I thought Rick was going to be outmaneuvered and outplayed by the Gov. Rick's speech post-meeting back at the prison was awesome, and made me think that Rick saw 100% through the Gov's deception. But then his one on one with Hershel was dissapointing, because he admits to being in full contemplation of the Michonne swap proposal.

I was hoping that I was reading the conversation with Hershel from a few episodes ago wrong, that Rick wasn't considering a Michonne swap. But I'm starting to learn to trust my gut instinct with this show...at least this season. The writers wanted us to walk away from that scene believing that Rick was really in turmoil about the Michonne deal. This Sunday's episode showed the actual mental struggle. Unfortunately Merle interpreted the discussion with Rick as an implied request to do the dirty work that Rick wouldn't be able to do himself.

As much as I didn't like him as a character, Merle was interesting, and could have added value to thier group. I loved the question from Rick, "You don't even kow why you do the things you do, do you?" And Merl admitting to Rick that he didn't, that he was a mystery to himself. I think Michonne was dialed in from the audience's perspective on Merl. She even said something similar about starting over, adding value.

Whether viewed as its own entity devoid of external contributions, or attributed to a group effort over the course of the last season or two, it was still a very powerful scene that gave us a much more satisfying conclusion to the relationship between Daryl and Merle than the rooftop conclusion from season 1.

As for the disagreements yesterday, folks butt heads on the internet all the time. No biggie.

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As much as I didn't like him as a character, Merle was interesting, and could have added value to thier group. I loved the question from Rick, "You don't even kow why you do the things you do, do you?" And Merl admitting to Rick that he didn't, that he was a mystery to himself.

I absolutely loved that line/scene, which of course frustrated me more when they went the route they did. I really think they blew a great opportunity to use the character for at least one more season, particulary in a "triangle" with Daryl and Carol. I would say his plan was out of character, but I suppose the aforementioned scene establishes he just does what he does, which I guess is also kind of cool.

imho, Merle was sort of underdeveloped this season and the forced gladiator-ish showdown between him and Daryl didn't quite live up to expectations. Sure, it was cool to have him back in the mix. I don't know how often someone disappears in a series pilot and then returns more than 2 seasons later. I just feel like he remained a cipher, and just sort of a irascible, racist SOB still. By comparison, if you watch the early Season 1 episodes during the marathon you see just how different Rick and Shane's characters were then vs. what they became.

So that's maybe why Gimple's script finally putting some meat on Merle's character bones and then flushing the character away (no matter how great the death scene, it still feels like flushing away a character who could be a cool counterpoint to the others) feels sort of rushed to some. I can't really tell you if Merle suddenly got a conscience, or if he wanted to kill the Gov to save his brother, or if he was just pissed at the gov and it wasn't anything deeper than that.

I dunno. I hope Gimple becoming showrunner means all sorts of underwritten characters get more to do next season though you can only do so much on an ensemble show.

I do get the impression everyone on the cast is getting tired of the constant good byes to cast members. I mean, it just comes with the comic book's territory but it must be painful to keep saying goodbye to cast mates.

imho, Merle was sort of underdeveloped this season and the forced gladiator-ish showdown between him and Daryl didn't quite live up to expectations. Sure, it was cool to have him back in the mix. I don't know how often someone disappears in a series pilot and then returns more than 2 seasons later. I just feel like he remained a cipher, and just sort of a irascible, racist SOB still. By comparison, if you watch the early Season 1 episodes during the marathon you see just how different Rick and Shane's characters were then vs. what they became.

So that's maybe why Gimple's script finally putting some meat on Merle's character bones and then flushing the character away (no matter how great the death scene, it still feels like flushing away a character who could be a cool counterpoint to the others) feels sort of rushed to some. I can't really tell you if Merle suddenly got a conscience, or if he wanted to kill the Gov to save his brother, or if he was just pissed at the gov and it wasn't anything deeper than that.

as soon as they started developing him in that episode you knew what was going to happen.

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just watched episode 15,kinda gutted over Merle he was the fly in the ointment that i thought Rick's party needed,it'll be interesting to see how Daryl takes this...afterwards i mean,I wonder if this will make him crawl back into his shell

Quote from: corruptrelic on March 30, 2013, 01:58:52 AM

Hopefully the Governor gets what's coming to him in the finale.

As much as i want to see The Governor get what's coming to him,i love his character...I think he is a great bad guy,I don't want to see him go just yet,although i expect that's what will happen with it being the end of the season 'different Season=different setting/different threat'

This is the first major character departure from the comic, as Andrea is one of the very few remaining originals still left. I'm kind of bummed out. She really starts to fill the void after Lori's death, so I don't know what they are going to do on that front now. I'm wondering if her death was planned from the beginning or partially as a reaction to fans' clear disdain for her this season. Personally I found her mildly annoying but it seemed like a lot of people really hated her. I really liked her dynamic with Michonne, and with Milton as well, and I honestly thought they'd play into the "do zombies have anything human left in them" motif once they were stuck together. Looked like a perfect opportunity to explore that, see Milton have an ounce of humanity left which then saves Andrea. But maybe that's too idealistic and/or obvious an approach. This way was more realistic but pretty depressing.

Gov going psycho was a cool scene, guessing he should be back next season... I thought for sure they'd just take over the town themselves, but I guess it's too big for them to defend. Looks like a lot of old lady fodder to die next season lol.

Loved the start of the Dark Carl arc, particularly when he puts his wishy washy dad in his place.

Bummed they didn't do more to make the prison into a death trap. And by not taking out the Governor. Shocked by the turn after the failed raid. Was not expecting that. Too bad Martinez was so stunned to do anything about it. As soon as they pulled back to the door after Miltons attack, I knew Andrea was a goner.