If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

I have tested 2x Liliana, the Last Hope on with two Mana sources - Bayou and Scrubland.
Here are the results:
Played against:
Grixis Delver x2, Elves, 2x Czech pile, UW miracle, and mirror.
I board it in every matchup and it was very good, gave me victory 3 times but her own. I found that it require one more black source to be enough to cast. I recommended second bayou, but it depends on build(running mom less, mid sfm package(5), with a lot (3) CA creatures like tracker or railler addition to core. Hugh advantage of Liliana was that it growth additional to removal which is enough to tick her to ultimate. For example I also test Garruk Rentless and big Nissa. Both was solid but wasn't so good as Liliana.
Walkers is another route to fight overwhelming removal from mid-range Czech pile decks.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Round 1: Dredge (Win, 1-0)
G1: Nothing to much here. Resolve an early Deathrite Shaman to slowly remove Ichorids. I GSZ for Teeg just in case they were on MD Dread Return. Opponent ran out of cards to dredge
when I was at 2 life.

G2: Crop Rotated for Bojuka Bog.

Round 2: Death and Taxes (Drew, 1-0-1)
G1: I couldn’t remove Serra Avenger quick enough. I conceded the match to try to gain more time in G2
G2: Won with T4 making my 20/20. Punishing Fire goes a long way in this match.
G3: When Time was called, I had equipped a Reclamation Sage to a Sword of Fire and Ice. If I had two more turns, I would have won that game.

Round 4: Tin Fins (Won, 2-1-1)
G1: My opponent won the die roll, T1 Faithless Looting – discarding Children of Korlis and Tendrills of Agony. (Internal Screaming). I somehow Won that game with Deathrite and Scavenging Ooze.
G2: My opponent T1 Dark Ritual, Liliana the Last Veil. I discards a plowshares to try to keep Knight in hand. After a couple of turns, I crop rotated for Thespian Stage to make Marit Lage and attack.

Round 5: 4c Leovold (Won, 3-1-1)
G1: There’s going to a lot of time where I’m going to say that I won on T4 or T5 with Marit Lage. This is one of them
G2: This is another of those I won on T4 or T5 with Marit Lage.

Round 6: Death and Taxes (Won, 4-1-1)
G1: I established an Early Punishing Fire Lock, picking off moms, Thalia, Stoneforge, etc. My opponent concedes.
G2: I made a 20/20 on T4 or T5. I had mom Back up protection.

Round 7: Bant Deathblade (Won, 5-1-1)
G1: 2 True Names are really bad to deal with. I found that you can race one of them, not two of them.
G2: I had that match lock between Choke and Excavator – Wasteland Lock
G3. I keep all lands, exception being Crop Rotation and Sword of Fire and Ice. I know my opponent bring back Force of Will, so I had to bait it out. They were land screwed for a while. I found a Punishing Fire started removing the mana dorks. My opponent conceded after I wasteland the third time.

I was convinced that I top 8, only to found out that I got 9th. I can’t blame anyone or myself. I felt that I played reasonably and made sub-optimal plays. Maybe for the next tournament I drop the Choke and add in Surgicals or another Combo-Hate piece. Who knows. Until next time.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by Fatal

I have tested 2x Liliana, the Last Hope on with two Mana sources - Bayou and Scrubland.
Here are the results:
Played against:
Grixis Delver x2, Elves, 2x Czech pile, UW miracle, and mirror.
I board it in every matchup and it was very good, gave me victory 3 times but her own. I found that it require one more black source to be enough to cast. I recommended second bayou, but it depends on build(running mom less, mid sfm package(5), with a lot (3) CA creatures like tracker or railler addition to core. Hugh advantage of Liliana was that it growth additional to removal which is enough to tick her to ultimate. For example I also test Garruk Rentless and big Nissa. Both was solid but wasn't so good as Liliana.
Walkers is another route to fight overwhelming removal from mid-range Czech pile decks.

I've been playing without mom's, Garruk main deck, and 2 Liliana's + a swamp in the sideboard. It's been real swell (just bayou//scrub main for B lands).

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Recently started playing Legacy again. Trying to adjust my Maverick list to the current meta. My locals has seen a real upsurge in Miracles players (went from one dedicated guy to 4-5 of em). Other than that people mostly play Stoneblade and Delver variants (mainly Grixis). There's also a bunch of miscellaneous 1-of decks floating around like Lands, 4c Loam, Eldrazi Stompy, and that one guy that maxed out Death and Taxes and will never let the deck go.

The deck has been doing alright so far (I'm not that great at piloting it):

At a Friday locals I went 1-2 (lost round 1 to lands, could have won game 2 but I was starving and wanted to get Subway. won round 2 against Stax, they drew nothing but ramp game 1, beat me game 2, and lost to Thalia beatdown game 3. Lost round 3 to some mono-black vampire meme deck because the guy just kept dropping cheap deathtouch creatures until he had enough mana to cast the big boys).

Today I went 1-2 again (beat Elves round 1, but the elves player was really inexperienced. I think at one point they let me wasteland loop them with Ramunap like 5 turns in a row while they had an active Deathrite on board. Lost round 2 to Eldrazi, they opened godhand both games, not much I could do. Lost round 3 to miracles. Probably could have mulled better games 1 and 3).

I know the manabase is subpar. I'd love to throw in another dual and a cradle (and swap out marsh flats for verdant catacombs- I only run flats because I pulled them) but I don't have the money for that right now. Although it's not optimal it's been serviceable so far and I don't feel too bad about running 4 basics since the local Miracles players seem to think maining back to basics is an ok thing to do to a human being.

I'm mostly wondering about:
Bob: I haven't seen him in too many lists. I run him because he's great against Miracles. Do you guys think he's worth some slots or nah? Stoneforge Package: Right now I have a 3/3 split of Stoneforge/Equips, but I've considered lowering it to 2/2 (taking out the Sword of Light and Shadow, probably siding it).Sided Batterskull: I don't run it main because it ends up dead a lot. I mainly have it in the side to bring in vs. Miracles since the matchup is grindy enough for me to reliably get enough mana to cast/recast it. That being said it could go out for something else. Sylvan Safekeeper: I haven't had great experiences with this card but I could be playing it entirely wrong. What are your guys experience with it and how does it generally earn its slot? (I don't have it in the list right now). Maze of Ith: I have mixed feelings on this one mainly because it hasn't been useful at all lately and drawing it opening hand can sometimes suck.

Reasons I'm not runningThoughtseize: I ran it at two and didn't see it nearly enough to justify it. It might work more at four but I'm really hesitant to run a full playset. Dark Depths + Stage: Depths ended up clogging hands a lot, and I also developed an unhealthy habit of tunnel visioning hard for Merit Lage.

The changes I've been considering are
-2 Bob -1 Stoneforge -1 light and shadow
+1 Tireless Tracker +1 Birds of Paradise +1 Safekeeper +1 flex slot (probably a Rallier)
I'll probably move Batterskull out of the side and replace it with Light and Shadow.

I sort of want to try the Punishing variant but I don't have red duals, RIP.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

@SellaNona: I'll provide my perspective on these cards, but you can expect differing views. I thought I'd provide a quick comment but it quickly turns rather comprehensive, still there are more things to consider and discuss. I hope this provides at least some useful input for you. I'll reread the text a third time later.

Originally Posted by SellaNona

I'm mostly wondering about:
Bob: I haven't seen him in too many lists. I run him because he's great against Miracles. Do you guys think he's worth some slots or nah?

I would prefer Tireless Tracker over Bob. It can be GSZ-ed for, it grows while drawing cards, if you have an active KotR you can use it to get a fetch for double clues in response to any removal while Bob would not be able to draw you any cards. However, Tracker does benefit from Gaea's Cradle. I would at least play a single Tracker over the second Confidant for the GSZ interaction. When Miracles was hot I was testing Confidant but moved to Tracker, it was pretty good in the matchup but I still couldn't usually beat CB+top, Terminus and Jace. That should be more doable now, I guess, but if Miracles is a problem you can probably look into a few other ways to combat them too. Like planeswalkers, Bitterblossom and Titania can all put pressure on the opponent and combat Jace and Terminus. Gaddock fights Entreat, though it's an uphill battle, and Engineered Plague can keep Mentor in check (but often you don't know if they play Mentor at all, so it can be hard to board in). Sword of Light and Shadow equipped onto a Dryad Arbor is a good way to pressure Miracles, since you can fetch it back at EOT after they Terminus to keep pressure up. Sword of L&S equipped to Gaddock Teeg is pretty great too.

Stoneforge Package: Right now I have a 3/3 split of Stoneforge/Equips, but I've considered lowering it to 2/2 (taking out the Sword of Light and Shadow, probably siding it).

Stoneforge is often played as a 2/2 with equipment in Dark Maverick, I think most lists playing more than that tend to be Punishing lists. With the increased usage of Kolaghan's Command I went down to 1 Stoneforge even, and I rely on Renegade Rallier to get back the Jitte. But like commented above Sword of L&S could be great vs Miracles so I think you could try 2 Stoneforge 3 equipment. [Edit: reading your questions again, yes, it seems ok in the sideboard to bring in vs Miracles, D&T, perhaps Marit Lage-decks, anything where you want recursion of Qasali Pridemage, larger creatures or lifegain]

Sided Batterskull: I don't run it main because it ends up dead a lot. I mainly have it in the side to bring in vs. Miracles since the matchup is grindy enough for me to reliably get enough mana to cast/recast it. That being said it could go out for something else.

Batterskull is fine vs Miracles, it's a recastable threat which is good but they can usually easily fight him off with an active Jace, throwing Snapcasters for chumpblocking, Swordsing and eventually countering when you try to recast it. It's crucial to be able to fight their resolved Jaces and Batterskull isn't in my experience very good at that. Batterskull is pretty great vs Eldrazi, I think I might sideboard it if Eldrazi is on the rise but Engineered Plague does a similar good job of fighting Eldrazi and it can help vs Elves which is usually a tougher matchup. I wouldn't sideboard Batterskull currently, I think.

Sylvan Safekeeper: I haven't had great experiences with this card but I could be playing it entirely wrong. What are your guys experience with it and how does it generally earn its slot? (I don't have it in the list right now).

I prefer him when/if playing Titania, Protector of Argoth [edit: who by the way requires Cradle] and Ramunap Excavator, but I havn't played him much and am also unconvinced. With those two cards in the list there is I feel a higher ceiling for how useful the card can be. Gaddock with Olle Råde, or Sylvan Safekeeper, can be pretty good vs Miracles since it shuts down most of their deck, you can try it but be aware of Council's Judgment after which they can Terminus your board away, and don't attack with Gaddock into a blocking Snapcaster.

Maze of Ith: I have mixed feelings on this one mainly because it hasn't been useful at all lately and drawing it opening hand can sometimes suck.

If TNN and Young Pyromancer are relatively common in your meta then I wouldn't play Maze of Ith. It's also quite bad vs Miracles. I wouldn't maindeck it, either way, and I think Engineered Plague is actually a good answer vs both TNN and Young Pyromancer while also helping out vs Elves, D&T, TES, Eldrazi, Monastery Mentor, the new Humans deck, Merfolk, Slivers, random Thopter Foundry combo, et cetera. Maze is good (better than Plague) I guess vs Marit Lage, Reanimator and Delver, but I think StP already does a good job vs those.

Last edited by pettdan; 11-27-2017 at 08:33 AM.

Currently playing/brewing: Grixis Painter, all Maverick versions, Planeswalker Nic Fit, Cloudpost Fit, MOST and then some.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

@pettdan

Thanks for the response! Your reasoning was clear and very helpful.

Seems like not having a Cradle is screwing me out of a lot of interesting techs/play lines, which is a shame. Sort of makes me want to buy one, but at the same time, I could pick up a Taiga, Plateau, Groves, Foothills, and the other odds and ends necessary for Punishing Maverick for less ;-;

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by SellaNona

@pettdan

Thanks for the response! Your reasoning was clear and very helpful.

Seems like not having a Cradle is screwing me out of a lot of interesting techs/play lines, which is a shame. Sort of makes me want to buy one, but at the same time, I could pick up a Taiga, Plateau, Groves, Foothills, and the other odds and ends necessary for Punishing Maverick for less ;-;

You are welcome! Check the primer too, it's quite new. You can play without Cradle, but it has advantages.

Currently playing/brewing: Grixis Painter, all Maverick versions, Planeswalker Nic Fit, Cloudpost Fit, MOST and then some.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

My locals has seen a real upsurge in Miracles players (went from one dedicated guy to 4-5 of em). Other than that people mostly play Stoneblade and Delver variants (mainly Grixis).

In the meta you're describing, a 4th Thalia and a 4th Mom sound pretty strong to me. I'd consider cutting the Bobs for them. I'd also like to see a 2nd Pridemage; maybe move Scooze to the board (you don't have a Cradle to let it go insane) or cut an Abrupt Decay (they fill similar roles).

Has 21 lands been enough for you? I think of 22-23 being the sweet spot, but who knows.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

@Stuart

I have been considering a second pridemage.

How good is Thalia in the miracles matchup? I know it seems like a weird question, but they accumulate so many lands over the course of the game and can generally grind well enough that it's been hard for me to kill em early.

I feel like Scooze is maybe worth it even without cradle just because it's grave disruption, which seems decent since I do see a decent amount of Deathrites.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

is the single noble hierarch in most of the list i see really that important? i guess its your 5th mana dork? my maverick list is playing 4 stoneforges and 3 equips with batterskull mainboard. if ever i play single noble hierarch the hierarch will take the 4th stoneforge place. i play isaac sears 75 more or less. thanks guys!

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by Drkmaverick

is the single noble hierarch in most of the list i see really that important? i guess its your 5th mana dork? my maverick list is playing 4 stoneforges and 3 equips with batterskull mainboard. if ever i play single noble hierarch the hierarch will take the 4th stoneforge place. i play isaac sears 75 more or less. thanks guys!

Like you can see in the primer it is common to play 4-5 mana dorks. Since there are 4 GSZ's and 1 Dryad Arbor it is actually a question of if you want to run 8 or 9 copies of virtual mana dorks, and if you want to be able to keep a GSZ in your starting hand or fire it off for ramping. In a punishing list, which I guess you're playing, mana seems more important so having complements to Deathrite that generate mana regardless of the graveyard or opposing Deathrites makes some more sense, also having a higher number of them. Suppose your opponent plays a t1 Deathrite and you get to GSZ on your t2, you would then rather get a Noble Hierarch if you need the mana. It also opens the ability to GSZ for 1 to get an exalted trigger, perhaps you have a Scryb Ranger or BoP in play and want to hit a planeswalker, this is a corner case where you would want a Noble Hierarch. Someone else could comment on if it is required in a punishing list, but in Dark Maverick I wouldn't consider a 5th mana dork mandatory. You can play 4 Deathrites and increase your threat density instead. That's what I have usually been doing the last 2 years or so.

Currently playing/brewing: Grixis Painter, all Maverick versions, Planeswalker Nic Fit, Cloudpost Fit, MOST and then some.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Hi to all community.
I'm a new player for Punishing Maverick deck; I will play the list :

Have you a Spreadsheet of "side" complete? Or do you know what to put up and take off (on the play and on the draw) against these actually deck?

Thanks.

Currently the SB Guide is down for Punishing Maverick (I"m taking the assumption that you are using my 9th place list). It will be up by Friday. Until then i recommend goldfising yourself to see the lines of play.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by Drkmaverick

is the single noble hierarch in most of the list i see really that important? i guess its your 5th mana dork? my maverick list is playing 4 stoneforges and 3 equips with batterskull mainboard. if ever i play single noble hierarch the hierarch will take the 4th stoneforge place. i play isaac sears 75 more or less. thanks guys!

Regarding Punishing Maverick mana base. I strongly recommend running 5 dorks. The reason being is because the deck starves for mana in the early turns, and thus you need to be able to have turn 1 dork. I run 3 DRS, 1 BOP, and 1 NH, and I haven't had any serious mana issues. NP isn't a requirement, but NP exalted trigger sometimes comes up with damage.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

I'm switching off of Dark Maverick for a while to try Punishing Maverick instead. Although I will miss having Decays for the Miracles matchup, I feel that the Grove/Pfire package more than makes up for them.

Played in 4-round locals. Sadly went 0-4.

Lost first round to Eldrazi. While I did go 0-2 at least the games were a lot closer than they were before (ultimately we had even boardstates then both went into topdeck wars and my opponent topdecked creatures because, well, Eldrazi).

I lost round 2 to a Pyromancer deck. Game 1 I got run out of resources pretty quickly and lost to Gurmag Angler after they bolted my Scryb Ranger (which had been bouncing Arbor to fog it). I lost game 2 because once again I was unable to find an out to Gurmag. 0-2'd again.

I went 1-2 game 3 vs. Death and Taxes. Lost game 1 because I just got outvalued and wasn't able to drop any meaningful creatures. Won game 2 off of Sword of Light and Shadow and Engineered Plague naming humans. I almost won game 3 (I was off by a single Deathrite activation, had my opponent at 1 life) but got beaten down by three Flickerwhisps (sadly didn't see my Plague this game).

I went 0-2 against what I believe was four-color control. I didn't really play out the second game because my opponent was starting to remind me why I stopped going to Yu-Gi-Oh regionals and I honestly wasn't enjoying the game.

Overall I think that I sided very badly which was a contributing factor to my losses. Round 1 was okay, not really much for me to side in vs Eldrazi. I don't remember exactly how I sided round 2. Round 3 is where I really fucked up by siding out Dryad Arbor and Scryb Ranger rather than siding out Thalias (which I somehow forgot I'm supposed to do vs. Taxes). Scryb Ranger would have chumped a Flickerwhisp and won me game 3. Round 4 I messed up by forgetting I had sided out Dryad Arbor again (I think I brought in like 8 sideboard cards).

I'm really starting to feel the lack of Dark Depths especially against Eldrazi (the only time I've beaten the deck when they open well is by rushing it). I don't really like playing Depths because I tend to tunnel vision into making the Merit Lage token, but when I do pick up the pieces for Punishing Maverick it's gonna be in the main with some crop rotations in the side.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by SellaNona

I'm really starting to feel the lack of Dark Depths especially against Eldrazi (the only time I've beaten the deck when they open well is by rushing it). I don't really like playing Depths because I tend to tunnel vision into making the Merit Lage token, but when I do pick up the pieces for Punishing Maverick it's gonna be in the main with some crop rotations in the side.

Depths is too sick not to run. I play it in all versions of Maverick. Obviously, Gaea's Cradle is my favorite card ever, but I like having access to a game ending combo that can be tutored when an opponent is over-committed to whatever bullshit non-Mav players get into these days. Just don't be too obvious.

I definitely feel your pain RE tunnel vision. You will learn the spots.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Originally Posted by Mr. Nekro

Has anyone tried any number of Lingering Souls? It's not exactly in the spirit of the deck and its pretty bad in a DRS heavy meta, but I was considering it.

Can I ask what you would consider cutting for Lingering Souls? I can't think of a situation where I'd rather see a coupla spirit tokens over ______ Maverick card, at least in the main deck. I should mention that I have no imagination when it comes to MTG cards so you should try it and see what happens.

Also, unrelated to Nekro's post here, shout out to the new Maverick player I played against on the MTGO last night. I enjoyed our multi-13/13 KotR grind fest/stare down that I almost timed out of immensely.

Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

Traded off all of my spare stuff to pick up Taiga, Plateau, Groves, Foothills, Depths and a bunch of other miscellaneous stuff. I also had enough left over to get non-foil knights and stoneforges (my knights in particular were pretty warped).

I netdecked Thunderknight's 9th place list. Played some test games against Shardless BUG. Went pretty well overall, Marit Lage token won me two games that would have been extremely hard to play through without it. I lost one game because I didn't mull when I should have and got mana screwed and another to Jace + Liliana.