2. That is not a strict deduction. First you should prove that there are really no other options than ‘physical chance’ and an intelligent designer. You are far from that.

you forgot physical necessity. The 3 possibilities are the only ones i know of. If you know a other option, please present it.

3. Yes, you believe. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you say that. But in thinking you have something more logical or scientifically established facts in your hands is you are wrong, very wrong.

please explain, why.

Why can’t you just wait and see what science will discover about the BB and just postpone your ideas until there is some positive empirical proof for how it came into existence?

Because its not needed. The data we have on hand are enough to make save and secure , and highly likely deductions, namely that chance and physical necessity are bad answers, a intelligent designer makes most sense .

Absolutely. Morals are prescriptive. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not and cannot exist, therefore we become amoral beings. We can behave as if we behave morally, but without God, the foundation of morality is taken away, and whatever you feel is moral, is relative. Someone else can held the oposite of what you think is moral, and there is no instance to arbitrate, who is behaving morally well, who is not. Without God, you can behave as a nihilist. Everything is aloud, everything is permitted.

Absolutely. Morals are prescriptive. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not and cannot exist, therefore we become amoral beings. We can behave as if we behave morally, but without God, the foundation of morality is taken away, and whatever you feel is moral, is relative. Someone else can held the oposite of what you think is moral, and there is no instance to arbitrate, who is behaving morally well, who is not. Without God, you can behave as a nihilist. Everything is aloud, everything is permitted.

I haven’t thought this thread was worth much, but seeing this last insanity, I have to respond. Absolutely NOT. We are a social species, and we have a genetic predisposition to assist each other. While this drive can be modified or even destroyed by our early experiences, it has nothing to do with any mythical being. We have built into us by our genes this social drive, which could be called objective moral values. Societies have a function of protecting the members so laws are written to punish transgressions. No silly fairytale of a big daddy in the sky is needed to assure that certain behavior is NOT allowed or permitted.

If the odds in a lottery are 10,000,000 to 1 and there is a winner, do we say it was a fixed lottery?

that is a bad example. Fact is, that chance to get a life permitting universe is over one to 10^173. That means, there is almost NO chance this to happen by chance. That demands a explanation.

You did not answer the question if you thought it was a fixed game if someone won @ 10,000,000 odds. Moreover, your answer admits there is a chance that someone could win, albeit small. Potential has a strange property that once acquired it never goes away, all it needs is time and it will become reality. If we consider the number of players in the game and billions of years to play the game, your 10^173 becomes almost certainty. You keep clinging to the notion that nature had just one try at it. What if nature had 10^200 tries at it?
Using your argument, everything in this universe is subject to your odds of 10^173. Look at the universe, my friend. Those odds translated into 100 billion galaxies (and more to come), each containing roughly 100 billion stars (and more to come), almost all having planets (and more to come).

Your assumption of a created universe that is today what it was yesterday is myopic. The creative and destructive process is ongoing each and every instant in time. If there is a god he will find no rest until the universe ceases to exist, and that will be the death of your god as well.
When our sun goes nova, where will your god be? Will he help and put out the fire? or will he shrug his shoulders and say “Well we had a good run”.

The same is true for our universe. The universe is not the way it is so that life can exist. Life exists because the universe is the way that it is..

Why is it life permitting , if the odds this to happen are so big ? Why do atheists like Stenger or Dawkins try to find a escape, and come up with fantasy multiverse ? If it would be that easy as you think, they would not search so far to find a answer to the problem.

You don’t seem to get it. If the universe had different perameters that allowed some other form of life or no life at all to exist the odds of the universe existing in that state would be EXACTLY the same as the odds of the universe existing in the state we currently have. Every time they pick lottery numbers the odds of whatever combination they pick are always exactly the same.. 1 in 70 million lets say. You don’t sit there each lottery day and think “wow what were the odds of that”. You only consider what a long shot it was when your own numbers come up.

The odds that this universe would exist in the form it does with the constants the way they are is exactly the same as the odds that it would exist in a form where ice sinks and most current forms of life would not exist. We are here because the conditions happen to be right for our existence. As i said above, if they weren’t then another life form might be having this conversation ( or not if they are more intelligent) or it would be a lifeless place. The universe evolves within the parameters that exist. The universe was not created to allow for your existence.

You are only amazed by the odds because the odds fell in your favor and led to your existence.

Here is another way perhaps to help you understand the statistics. Forgetting the universe as a whole what were the odds that YOU would ever be born? For you to be born your mother had to marry your father and they had to have sex on the exact day that they did. Long odds for sure given the number of people in the world (billions) and the busy lives your parents most likely led. But for your parents to be born those same odds had to work in your favor with your grandparents as well. Already the odds of your existence are less than 1 in 10^27 ( a billion x a billion x a billion) and we’ve only gone back 2 generations. You can quickly see that with exponential expansion the odds of you coming into existence by pure chance are infinitesimally small and yet here you are. Do you honestly believe that all the people of the earth over all those millenia worked together to bring you into existence? Of course not. They just randomly went about their business and you are the end result. Had they chose to do even one little thing different along the way we would have someone else and that persons odds of being here would have been just as remote. It only seems special that you are here because that is the end result you desire. It wasn’t really mankinds goal.

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Absolutely. Morals are prescriptive. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not and cannot exist, therefore we become amoral beings. We can behave as if we behave morally, but without God, the foundation of morality is taken away, and whatever you feel is moral, is relative. Someone else can held the oposite of what you think is moral, and there is no instance to arbitrate, who is behaving morally well, who is not. Without God, you can behave as a nihilist. Everything is aloud, everything is permitted.

I love when believers make this comment. It is without a doubt among the stupidest things they can say. Your comment therefor implies that believers are more moral than non-believers. I challenge you to show any evidence at all to support that.

I see lots of immoral religious folk making the news every day and many of the most moral people I know have no faith in god at all. This is a completely baseless and ignorant statement.

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For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

It is apparent that adonai does not use any of the links provided to him. He has his bible and a few religious websites in front of him. And that is enough. Science has no value and he does not need to learn about all that natural stuff. Supernatural is way to go, come rain or shine , hell or high water.

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.W4U

2. That is not a strict deduction. First you should prove that there are really no other options than ‘physical chance’ and an intelligent designer. You are far from that.

you forgot physical necessity. The 3 possibilities are the only ones i know of. If you know a other option, please present it.

3. Yes, you believe. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you say that. But in thinking you have something more logical or scientifically established facts in your hands is you are wrong, very wrong.

please explain, why.

Why can’t you just wait and see what science will discover about the BB and just postpone your ideas until there is some positive empirical proof for how it came into existence?

Because its not needed. The data we have on hand are enough to make save and secure , and highly likely deductions, namely that chance and physical necessity are bad answers, a intelligent designer makes most sense .

Absolutely. Morals are prescriptive. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not and cannot exist, therefore we become amoral beings. We can behave as if we behave morally, but without God, the foundation of morality is taken away, and whatever you feel is moral, is relative. Someone else can held the oposite of what you think is moral, and there is no instance to arbitrate, who is behaving morally well, who is not. Without God, you can behave as a nihilist. Everything is aloud, everything is permitted.

I haven’t thought this thread was worth much, but seeing this last insanity, I have to respond. Absolutely NOT. We are a social species, and we have a genetic predisposition to assist each other.

And you know that how exactly ?

While this drive can be modified or even destroyed by our early experiences, it has nothing to do with any mythical being. We have built into us by our genes this social drive, which could be called objective moral values.

no kidding…... and how do these genes tell us what is right, what is wrong ?

Societies have a function of protecting the members so laws are written to punish transgressions. No silly fairytale of a big daddy in the sky is needed to assure that certain behavior is NOT allowed or permitted.

Occam

amazing. on what basis can you tell Hitler got it wrong then ? It was the german society has a whole who thought the jews where a threat, and had to be eliminated.

your answer admits there is a chance that someone could win, albeit small.

Its said a chance less than one to 10^50 will almost sure never happen.

Potential has a strange property that once acquired it never goes away,

adquired by who or by what ?

all it needs is time and it will become reality.

amazing faith you have….

If we consider the number of players in the game and billions of years to play the game, your 10^173 becomes almost certainty.

lets assume you are right, and the only hurdle is chance. When it comes to creating the first life, only chance is not enough. The cell is irreducible complex, therefore chance alone cannot account for the existence of life.

You keep clinging to the notion that nature had just one try at it. What if nature had 10^200 tries at it?

what or who tried ? remember, according to modern cosmology, there was nothing physical at the beginning.

Using your argument, everything in this universe is subject to your odds of 10^173. Look at the universe, my friend. Those odds translated into 100 billion galaxies (and more to come), each containing roughly 100 billion stars (and more to come), almost all having planets (and more to come).

how do you know it happened just by chance ?

Your assumption of a created universe that is today what it was yesterday is myopic. The creative and destructive process is ongoing each and every instant in time. If there is a god he will find no rest until the universe ceases to exist, and that will be the death of your god as well.

I believe in a very powerful God. The number of stars is for him peanuts…...

When our sun goes nova, where will your god be? Will he help and put out the fire? or will he shrug his shoulders and say “Well we had a good run”.

the bible tells us, this universe will not exist forever. And God will create a second heaven, and a second earth, and they will be eternal.

We are here because the conditions happen to be right for our existence.

Great that you aknowledge that. Therefore puddlethinking isnt that apropriate anymore ? So if chance is so big, why is there no universe at all, or a non life permitting universe ? after all, if just chance plays a role, that possibility would be almost infinitly larger. That demands a explanation.

As i said above, if they weren’t then another life form might be having this conversation ( or not if they are more intelligent) or it would be a lifeless place. The universe evolves within the parameters that exist. The universe was not created to allow for your existence.

thats not what the fine-tuning of the universe makes us believe.

You are only amazed by the odds because the odds fell in your favor and led to your existence.

exactly. Why should i not be amazed ?

Here is another way perhaps to help you understand the statistics. Forgetting the universe as a whole what were the odds that YOU would ever be born?

What generated me ? my parents. What generated the universe ?? please explain ? odds and chance after all are not something. They just explain statistics.

moral, is relative. Someone else can held the oposite of what you think is moral, and there is no instance to arbitrate, who is behaving morally well, who is not. Without God, you can behave as a nihilist. Everything is aloud, everything is permitted.

I love when believers make this comment. It is without a doubt among the stupidest things they can say. Your comment therefor implies that believers are more moral than non-believers.

Why does it imply that ? What my comment implies is, that the atheistic world view does not permit to determine good and bad. It makes our world become ammoral. Without objective moral values, good and bad cannot exist. If God does not exist, who or what sets a objective moral standard ?

I challenge you to show any evidence at all to support that.

I see lots of immoral religious folk making the news every day and many of the most moral people I know have no faith in god at all. This is a completely baseless and ignorant statement.

Let me ask you : If i and the society i imaginibly wold live, would think, torture a little baby, rape it, kill it brutally, and commit cannibalism with it is the most sublime, the highest good i could do to that baby, based on what could you possibly say objectively, that is a bad behavior ? based on what could you say, the moral standard of a different society, if it would be the oposit of ours, is inferior, or wrong ?

Adonai as usual you don’t address the arguments put forth to you because you don’t seem to understand the concepts. I’ve given it the old college try but I don’t have the time to go over this again with you.

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For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

Occam. - 14 July 2012 02:17 PM I haven’t thought this thread was worth much, but seeing this last insanity, I have to respond. Absolutely NOT. We are a social species, and we have a genetic predisposition to assist each other

.

And you know that how exactly ?

That’s a silly question of the type asked by incompetent debaters to have the other side waste time. Are you completely unaware of how ubiquitous human societies are on our planet, and the clear differences between social and non-social species among ALL animals? Certainly all of the non-human social animals didn’t exert free-will to decide their behavior.

While this drive can be modified or even destroyed by our early experiences, it has nothing to do with any mythical being. We have built into us by our genes this social drive, which could be called objective moral values.

no kidding……... and how do these genes tell us what is right, what is wrong ?

As usual, wrong question. That which defines social animals is a genetic drive to help others of their society and to avoid hurting them. Then the society defines helpfulness as right and hurting as wrong. Note that a genetic drive is a motivation in that direction, not a universally followed edict.

Societies have a function of protecting the members so laws are written to punish transgressions. No silly fairytale of a big daddy in the sky is needed to assure that certain behavior is NOT allowed or permitted.

Occam

amazing. on what basis can you tell Hitler got it wrong then ? It was the german society has a whole who thought the jews where a threat, and had to be eliminated.

Most religious documents “written by their particular god” include moral edicts that are at times internally inconsistent, in disagreement with other edicts in the same document, or evil. There are a number of examples in the bible in which god commands that Jews kill those outside their society wholesale. This would indicate that Hitler and the German people were following God’s command and would be defined by you as moral by killing Jews, who they believed were outside their society.