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Yes, but what he's doing does not characterize the conventional Japanese method. Meaning he is focussed on principal and does not flood the students with waza. Paired practise is based on the foundation of building and reinforcing the correct body frame for marial movement. Although that has changed, and I have not been practising with the Aunkai peeps in awhile, so what I said might be an inaccurate description of what they are doing today.

So the Japanese method doesn't work, but when the Japanese use a method that does work, it isn't "the Japanese method" because it works, and by definition the Japanese method doesn't work? This is giving me a headache.

So the Japanese method doesn't work, but when the Japanese use a method that does work, it isn't "the Japanese method" because it works, and by definition the Japanese method doesn't work? This is giving me a headache.

Let me put it this way. When I think of the "Japanese method", I think of traditional budo, which consists a large number of people practising in pairs, practising a large number of waza, without a clear articulation of what the foundational principals are, and consequently leading the practitioners clueless as to what skills they are trying to gain. You then mix in the fact that most training is done under co-operation and none of there is no frame or leverage or concept of playing in non-co-operation and then going outside the dojo and practising with people who are trained to pick you apart. You then mix in the fact that since you do not have a clear articulation of what skills you are attain, you do not have a system with which you can refine your skills that can help you improve your chances against those who are trained to pick you apart. You do not have a system with which you can train intelligently. After you consider all this, then I guess you can understand why I say "the Japanese method" doesn't work. You also consider how institutionalized modern budo is, and you mix in the saving face and the egos, then you can understand why I don't think the Japanese method won't "evolve" or "adapt".

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 04-03-2012 at 12:25 AM.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.

Lorei - that is not the traditional Japanese method. That is a modern adaptation for large groups - hence, progressive.

Demetrio -

Quote:

Edo Era was very peaceful. Martial ryu proliferation was caused by the serious limitations imposed by the shogunate to call bs on what was taught as martial arts. Most of the innovation and evolution was developing flowery technique and kata dancing because the Sengoku Era "put up or shut up" was deemed as barbarical and improper. Nihil novum sub sole.

Not exactly. Actually, many of the most powerful ryu were birthed in the Edo period. I've never seen "kata dancing," actually. And of the extant koryu, very little "flowery technque." Unfortunately, many of the writers have merely "run with" some of Donn Draeger's perspectives, and amplified them far beyond what he said, generalizing things with TSKSR as the baseline from which all that followed degenerated.

And there was a LOT of put-up or shut-up in the Edo period.

Here's something more accurate - and actually more interesting.

Most Sengoku period ryu were closer to practical - none were probably military arts in their pure form. They utilized combative training to hone an officer class (the vast majority of fighters in the Sengoku period were peasants who got spears and practiced basic tactics in unison, much like any military. It is also probable that some of these early skills had rudiments of internal training, but the influx of information on that subject really occurred at the very end of the Sengoku period and early Edo. Then again, just because a ryu doesn't have something in this generation doesn't mean they didn't have it in a previous one (reference Kito-ryu in HIPS, for one example).

As the Edo period progressed, YES, there were restrictions of all kinds. But more important to the development of the ryu, they PROGRESSIVELY reworked the older styles to adapt to the kind of combat they really had to be concerned about - duels. Therefore, the great schools of mid-Edo were primarily dueling skills. It was at this time that "a thousand flowers bloomed," - where sogo bujutsu, with a lot of weapons, fissioned in to ryu specializing in one or two.

Interestingly, when this fissioning occurred, techniques became more sophisticated (for better and for worse), just like boxing technique took a leap, when they eliminated cross-buttock and other hip throws (which led to the development of the hook punch, which wasn't even considered earlier, as round-house punches were countered with throws.

When this fissioning occurred, guess what - there was far more concentration on subtleties - among them Internal Training.

It is very likely that IT went far back in time - for example, there is some evidence that the roots of what became Daito-ryu were already in the Kyo-hachi ryu which developed into Chujo ryu - Toda-ryu - Itto-ryu (hello - Daito-ryu). There are, according to one practitioner/scholar I consulted certain terms that are common to every ryu that emanated from the Kyo-hachi-ryu line (btw - their patron saint is Kiichi Hogen).

Lorei, back to you. Traditional Japanese pedagogy is small groups or one-on-one, the higher levels taught either directly or in steal-this-technique fashion. But it worked for hundreds of years.

Takeda Sokaku, fwiw, was a progressive innovator, who in many ways, broke the classical model of teaching.

And finally, Akuzawa is, in many ways, VERY traditional in his approach - he's merely open about what went on behind close doors.

Lorei - that is not the traditional Japanese method. That is a modern adaptation for large groups - hence, progressive.

Demetrio -

Not exactly. Actually, many of the most powerful ryu were birthed in the Edo period. I've never seen "kata dancing," actually. And of the extant koryu, very little "flowery technque." Unfortunately, many of the writers have merely "run with" some of Donn Draeger's perspectives, and amplified them far beyond what he said, generalizing things with TSKSR as the baseline from which all that followed degenerated.

And there was a LOT of put-up or shut-up in the Edo period.

Here's something more accurate - and actually more interesting.

Most Sengoku period ryu were closer to practical - none were probably military arts in their pure form. They utilized combative training to hone an officer class (the vast majority of fighters in the Sengoku period were peasants who got spears and practiced basic tactics in unison, much like any military. It is also probable that some of these early skills had rudiments of internal training, but the influx of information on that subject really occurred at the very end of the Sengoku period and early Edo. Then again, just because a ryu doesn't have something in this generation doesn't mean they didn't have it in a previous one (reference Kito-ryu in HIPS, for one example).

As the Edo period progressed, YES, there were restrictions of all kinds. But more important to the development of the ryu, they PROGRESSIVELY reworked the older styles to adapt to the kind of combat they really had to be concerned about - duels. Therefore, the great schools of mid-Edo were primarily dueling skills. It was at this time that "a thousand flowers bloomed," - where sogo bujutsu, with a lot of weapons, fissioned in to ryu specializing in one or two.

Interestingly, when this fissioning occurred, techniques became more sophisticated (for better and for worse), just like boxing technique took a leap, when they eliminated cross-buttock and other hip throws (which led to the development of the hook punch, which wasn't even considered earlier, as round-house punches were countered with throws.

When this fissioning occurred, guess what - there was far more concentration on subtleties - among them Internal Training.

It is very likely that IT went far back in time - for example, there is some evidence that the roots of what became Daito-ryu were already in the Kyo-hachi ryu which developed into Chujo ryu - Toda-ryu - Itto-ryu (hello - Daito-ryu). There are, according to one practitioner/scholar I consulted certain terms that are common to every ryu that emanated from the Kyo-hachi-ryu line (btw - their patron saint is Kiichi Hogen).

Lorei, back to you. Traditional Japanese pedagogy is small groups or one-on-one, the higher levels taught either directly or in steal-this-technique fashion. But it worked for hundreds of years.

Takeda Sokaku, fwiw, was a progressive innovator, who in many ways, broke the classical model of teaching.

And finally, Akuzawa is, in many ways, VERY traditional in his approach - he's merely open about what went on behind close doors.

Ellis Amdur

Hi Ellis,

Great post and I can also count on you to school me and help me refine my definitions. I guess it comes down to whether "current" pedagogical models in Japanese budo are capable of change and whether it is a clearly defined pedagogy that articulates foundational skills/principals and that makes the transmission of knowledge more efficient. Secondly, I will leave up to those who are in koryu or who have practised in small groups the higher level skills and have experience training with Westerners who are a bit innovative in articulating training concepts to decide whether the steal-this-technique or other koryu teaching styles are better than the methods of some Westerners or not.

Lorel

p.s.--It's Lorel, not Lorei.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.

Let me put it this way. When I think of the "Japanese method", I think of traditional budo, which consists a large number of people practising in pairs, practising a large number of waza, without a clear articulation of what the foundational principals are, and consequently leading the practitioners clueless as to what skills they are trying to gain. You then mix in the fact that most training is done under co-operation and none of there is no frame or leverage or concept of playing in non-co-operation and then going outside the dojo and practising with people who are trained to pick you apart. You then mix in the fact that since you do not have a clear articulation of what skills you are attain, you do not have a system with which you can refine your skills that can help you improve your chances against those who are trained to pick you apart. You do not have a system with which you can train intelligently. After you consider all this, then I guess you can understand why I say "the Japanese method" doesn't work. You also consider how institutionalized modern budo is, and you mix in the saving face and the egos, then you can understand why I don't think the Japanese method won't "evolve" or "adapt".

Dear Lorei.
Speaking for myself I can tell you categorically your comments concerning lack of understanding of foundational principles and of aikido and the notion that somehow we/I am clueless is imo nonsense.My teacher is constantly evolving and expressing clearly the underlying principles behind aikido.Perhaps in your case you do not have the benefit of a teacher such as my own?As far as my getting picked apart by others as you put it, I dont think so. Cheers, Joe.

Dear Lorei.
Speaking for myself I can tell you categorically your comments concerning lack of understanding of foundational principles and of aikido and the notion that somehow we/I am clueless is imo nonsense.My teacher is constantly evolving and expressing clearly the underlying principles behind aikido.Perhaps in your case you do not have the benefit of a teacher such as my own?As far as my getting picked apart by others as you put it, I dont think so. Cheers, Joe.

OK Joe. Good luck with your training.

Bye.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.

When this fissioning occurred, guess what - there was far more concentration on subtleties - among them Internal Training.

It is very likely that IT went far back in time - for example, there is some evidence that the roots of what became Daito-ryu were already in the Kyo-hachi ryu which developed into Chujo ryu - Toda-ryu - Itto-ryu (hello - Daito-ryu). There are, according to one practitioner/scholar I consulted certain terms that are common to every ryu that emanated from the Kyo-hachi-ryu line (btw - their patron saint is Kiichi Hogen).

I can't really answer that on any technical level, but it just doesn't seem to be a problem for me at this point. Early on, when I first started doing this, and had to really work at relaxing my lower back (due to the back injuries), I would definitely feel that my lower back was being strained (not in a bad way, more like worked hard) when I would consciously relax my lower back/spine and do things. That fatigue seems to have passed and I guess that my body has just adjusted and gotten stronger. I would think at this point if it were going to impact my spine in a negative way, I'd be feeling it by now, but the exact opposite has been the case. My lower back feels better and stronger now than it has at any point in the last 15-20 years.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that it has a similar effect as focused lower back stretching, inversion, etc, in that it allows increased blood flow into that area of my back, which helps. I also think that the compaction gets regulated by the body as you get better at relaxing those big muscles and letting the less prominent muscles get stronger and handle the load. It probably wouldn't be good to just jump in and try relaxing your lower back with a big load on your shoulders, but much like any sort of weight training, you build up and increase and get stronger as a result.

Funnily enough I had a recent reoccurrence of back pain inherited from 20 years ago, basically a spinal Protusion in the lower lumbar. As it gets more and more painful I find myself doing less and less ukemi. And classes have now gone down to twice a week. It's not getting better, and I'd be kidding I didn't think it's getting worst.

Confounding myself trying to figure out what's wrong I decided to restart gym work which I abandon upon advise of my Sensei and Silat teacher. Well two days on the elliptical and weights have resulted in diminished pain. Thus I agree that the exercise and loading of weights does strengthen the body.

Now... Wouldn't it be a surprise that all the exercises you guys are doing in developing fascia, grounding etc... Really was as simple as making your body used to taking lateral loads rather then generic strength training. And that's all it takes for people to do amazing stuff with their bodies. Specialize muscular training and unified usage of those muscles.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.

Now... Wouldn't it be a surprise that all the exercises you guys are doing in developing fascia, grounding etc... Really was as simple as making your body used to taking lateral loads rather then generic strength training. And that's all it takes for people to do amazing stuff with their bodies. Specialize muscular training and unified usage of those muscles.

well, IMO, that actually IS a part of it, but certainly not all of it. Internal strength is like ogres, lots of layers. The reason so much is made by IS people about starting slow with super low resistance and building up is because you have to strengthen and condition all those little muscles (and chains) under the big muscles . The only way to do that is to avoid using the big muscles so that the little muscles can get the workout. If you try to do too much too fast, the big muscles just kick in on their own and it becomes a normal old workout. So much of strength generation and our ability to resist forces is about maximizing the friction between our feet (or body) and the ground and something about using those little muscles allows forces to pass through the body more cleanly, increasing that friction, vs. pushing from the shoulders or resisting by tighting up the chest/shoulders/back and locking the frame in an attempt to get more friction to the feet that way.

well, IMO, that actually IS a part of it, but certainly not all of it. Internal strength is like ogres, lots of layers. The reason so much is made by IS people about starting slow with super low resistance and building up is because you have to strengthen and condition all those little muscles (and chains) under the big muscles . The only way to do that is to avoid using the big muscles so that the little muscles can get the workout. If you try to do too much too fast, the big muscles just kick in on their own and it becomes a normal old workout. So much of strength generation and our ability to resist forces is about maximizing the friction between our feet (or body) and the ground and something about using those little muscles allows forces to pass through the body more cleanly, increasing that friction, vs. pushing from the shoulders or resisting by tighting up the chest/shoulders/back and locking the frame in an attempt to get more friction to the feet that way.

"Little muscles" is a new term to me - care to elaborate on them, a little ?

"Little muscles" is a new term to me - care to elaborate on them, a little ?

Thanks

Greg

oh you know what I mean Greg.

You've got those "big" sexy muscles that you flex in the mirror every morning and then the ones that you don't really see that actually hold you together and do all the "little work" that we don't really think about, but are pretty important when it comes to keeping us upright and mobile.

You've got those "big" sexy muscles that you flex in the mirror every morning and then the ones that you don't really see that actually hold you together and do all the "little work" that we don't really think about, but are pretty important when it comes to keeping us upright and mobile.

Oh, those little muscles - yeah, I know of them - but I don't think of them with energy absorption and projection, I think more whole body fascia connections for that

Point made. Interesting take on things. What I would love to see would be a pure Aiki mentalist next to an IS specialist try things out with each other. One day maybe.

Do you think it hasn't happened?
No contest.
IS, which is foundationally mental work.... wins hands down. I would love to meet the Aikido or Daito ryu Shihan (who doesn't cross train) capable of withstanding what someone versed in IS...and...using it freestyle, could bring to a mat. I don't think they would stand a chance. But that's okay, there are other, standards in play-such as preserving a tradition. Not everyone got the chance to go out and experiment, explore and create. The good news is that todays budo is so open and friendly compared to the past, that everyone can meet and train. Innovators can share and traditionalists can share and both can have fun learning.
I think this might be one of the best times to do Budo.
Dan

Do you think it hasn't happened?
No contest.
IS, which is foundationally mental work.... wins hands down. I would love to meet the Aikido or Daito ryu Shihan (who doesn't cross train) capable of withstanding what someone versed in IS...and...using it freestyle, could bring to a mat. I don't think they would stand a chance. But that's okay, there are other, standards in play-such as preserving a tradition. Not everyone got the chance to go out and experiment, explore and create. The good news is that todays budo is so open and friendly compared to the past, that everyone can meet and train. Innovators can share and traditionalists can share and both can have fun learning.
I think this might be one of the best times to do Budo.
Dan

Dan, I've no idea if it has happened or not. On the other side of the scale I know of Aiki mentalists (for everyone's sake let me just say what I mean when I coined this word. Aiki mentalist here means, someone who practices Aiki from a transition of physical principles to Aiki principles. The training of which emphasizes center, extension of ki, relaxation, chushin, enshin, shuchu, awase, musubi and the ilk. Where they gradually lessen their physical manipulation, graduating to ki and later to mind and spirit. Most of anyone will not believe anything pass physical manipulation, maybe some would accept ki, but generally most will discount mind and spirit right away. Thus I coin Aiki mentalist. Not so much that they do not have sound physical skills, just that their inclination now would be on the mind and spirit side) who have been confronted by martial artists of calibre, active duty soldiers, and ppl like that, and have been able to do what they claim they can do.

As for them meeting IS specialists, no they haven't but I wish they would. It's something that I'd really really hope will happen one day. Because I truly believe it'll be a great learning experience for everybody not a proving contest.

Maybe when Dan pops by our corner of the world I could arrange some hand talking. Who knows right? Regardless I'd still attend your seminar if I ever got the chance. Just like I'll attend a Systema seminar anytime they come over here or when I'm abroad, or liq yi quan for that matter, and any Silat sessions especially maenpo'esque. I just want to understand and improve myself that's all. You guys can keep your trademarks, patents and branding cause it's no use to me. Some can tattoo aikido all over his head, and it still doesn't mean he knows squat about it after all.

Chillzatl, I hope you got that definition up there.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.

He's background is Aikido, coming from Yoshinkan, Aikikai, ..., shin shin toitsu,...,Aikikai.
The ... Period would be where I think he learned DR from one of the current living teachers. My memory is bad, it could be Sagawa.

He made a point that without DR it would have been really2 hard to understand Aiki. But, as he meets more and more teachers within the Aikikai circle who demonstrate their own understanding of Aiki, things that they rarely if ever display in public, he has come to believe that the Aiki of Aikido is different than in DR and the ryu before.

Also, it's hard to learn. Of his hundreds of students, only two have shown measurable competency in Aiki. The rest of the yudanshas are able to do some tricks, but not all and not necessarily well. They still are a damn sight better than a lot of ppl I see on the mat today but hey, relative I guess.

So, I know you keep saying what you are teaching is easy to learn Dan. Maybe you've figured out a good way to teach and all that. For one thing though, if DR teaches Aiki and it was that easy to learn, one would have expected that DR schools would be filled with Aiki masters today. Sadly that ain't the case. Most are still doing their physical thingey. There, I've gone and done it. Flay me why don't you.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.

He's background is Aikido, coming from Yoshinkan, Aikikai, ..., shin shin toitsu,...,Aikikai.
The ... Period would be where I think he learned DR from one of the current living teachers. My memory is bad, it could be Sagawa.

He made a point that without DR it would have been really2 hard to understand Aiki. But, as he meets more and more teachers within the Aikikai circle who demonstrate their own understanding of Aiki, things that they rarely if ever display in public, he has come to believe that the Aiki of Aikido is different than in DR and the ryu before.

Also, it's hard to learn. Of his hundreds of students, only two have shown measurable competency in Aiki. The rest of the yudanshas are able to do some tricks, but not all and not necessarily well. They still are a damn sight better than a lot of ppl I see on the mat today but hey, relative I guess.

So, I know you keep saying what you are teaching is easy to learn Dan. Maybe you've figured out a good way to teach and all that. For one thing though, if DR teaches Aiki and it was that easy to learn, one would have expected that DR schools would be filled with Aiki masters today. Sadly that ain't the case. Most are still doing their physical thingey. There, I've gone and done it. Flay me why don't you.

I don't believe that anyone (including Dan) has said DR teaches aiki - of course, there can be aiki in DR as well as in Aikido. Problem is, aiki is as lacking in most DR as well as most Aikido; and I believe Dan has said that before.

Dan, I've no idea if it has happened or not. On the other side of the scale I know of Aiki mentalists (for everyone's sake let me just say what I mean when I coined this word. Aiki mentalist here means, someone who practices Aiki from a transition of physical principles to Aiki principles. The training of which emphasizes center, extension of ki, relaxation, chushin, enshin, shuchu, awase, musubi and the ilk. Where they gradually lessen their physical manipulation, graduating to ki and later to mind and spirit. Most of anyone will not believe anything pass physical manipulation, maybe some would accept ki, but generally most will discount mind and spirit right away. Thus I coin Aiki mentalist. Not so much that they do not have sound physical skills, just that their inclination now would be on the mind and spirit side) who have been confronted by martial artists of calibre, active duty soldiers, and ppl like that, and have been able to do what they claim they can do.

As for them meeting IS specialists, no they haven't but I wish they would. It's something that I'd really really hope will happen one day. Because I truly believe it'll be a great learning experience for everybody not a proving contest.

Maybe when Dan pops by our corner of the world I could arrange some hand talking. Who knows right? Regardless I'd still attend your seminar if I ever got the chance. Just like I'll attend a Systema seminar anytime they come over here or when I'm abroad, or liq yi quan for that matter, and any Silat sessions especially maenpo'esque. I just want to understand and improve myself that's all. You guys can keep your trademarks, patents and branding cause it's no use to me. Some can tattoo aikido all over his head, and it still doesn't mean he knows squat about it after all.

I think you missed my point.
It has happened on many levels and many, many times. And IP/aiki wins. I have no doubt that your Aikido teacher, like so many before him... would be just another statistic.
If I ever find significant IP or aiki development in anyone in Aikido or Daito ryu I will shout it from the roof tops. For me, that will be a great find and a great day!!! It seems counter productive to just sit quietly, or to lie, when everyone I meet is incapable of demonstrating either IP or aiki to any serious degree. In my world view, these arts needs to be fixed, and that is what I am trying to help do. In the end it will handed off to the arts teachers to do the heavy lifting.

As for systema; five of its higher level teachers were incapable of stopping well developed IP/aiki in open rooms with dozens watching and have told Vlad just that. We have a good reputation among Systema schools not just for what we can do but for openly stating how highly we regard Systema. I think the world of systema as a whole system. It is larger than one one one combatives and offeres so much, but I think our method of movement is superior for one on one combatives.

While I have had invites to Japan, China, and the land of Oz I have no intentions of going. So they fly here. So, I can't ever see myself in your neck of the woods You would be smart to check out Sam Chin as well.
Dan

And ok let me put it out in the open before everyone jump in at once.
He's background is Aikido, coming from Yoshinkan, Aikikai, ..., shin shin toitsu,...,Aikikai.
The ... Period would be where I think he learned DR from one of the current living teachers. My memory is bad, it could be Sagawa.

He made a point that without DR it would have been really2 hard to understand Aiki. But, as he meets more and more teachers within the Aikikai circle who demonstrate their own understanding of Aiki, things that they rarely if ever display in public, he has come to believe that the Aiki of Aikido is different than in DR and the ryu before.

Also, it's hard to learn. Of his hundreds of students, only two have shown measurable competency in Aiki. The rest of the yudanshas are able to do some tricks, but not all and not necessarily well. They still are a damn sight better than a lot of ppl I see on the mat today but hey, relative I guess.

So, I know you keep saying what you are teaching is easy to learn Dan. Maybe you've figured out a good way to teach and all that. For one thing though, if DR teaches Aiki and it was that easy to learn, one would have expected that DR schools would be filled with Aiki masters today. Sadly that ain't the case. Most are still doing their physical thingey. There, I've gone and done it. Flay me why don't you.

Well, I won't flay you!
I have been consistent since the Aikido list days; from then to now and round the world and on video I keep waiting and hoping to meet anyone in either art, with significant development.

Couple of points
1. I absolutely do not believe that DR teaches Aiki to just anyone, and further there is no way you are ever going to find the fullness of IP/aiki in DR. There are significant reasons as to why.
2. I never said what I teach is easy. It is just easier and far more consistent than doing kata's for twenty years, getting crappy instruction and hoping for the best. You don't have to take my word for it, there are over a thousand people who are investing themselves in my methods because they are simply getting better results than by following the Japanese Shihans.
And before you flay me....remember I don't want anyone to leave aikido or Daito ryu, but rather to stay and build them up and force them to live up to their promise of being among the most powerful arts the world has seen. We gave the Japanese teachers a chance, they screwed it up. We need to teach ourselves. It's the one chance the art has to move forward, by being fixed from without and then from within.
Dan