Thursday, 8 June 2017

Play Testing 8th and Xenos 1 and 2

Hello!

8th has landed at the Bunny camp, The Warhammer Community Team sent us out a copy of the Dark Imperium box set and all 5 of the army books. Drake provided his thoughts on the Chaos and Imperium 2 earlier in the week. The 2 Xenos books have come my way and I have been able to get a few games of 8th in.

With the books in hand I set about organising some test games. It was an all Xenos affair with Orks, Necron's and some Harlequins.

The Books

The Indexes are very functional books. All rules and little else. Each army gets a 1 or 2 page fluff summery and then a 1 page army wide rules summery. The art is good but I believe it is all stuff we have seen before.

Xenos 1 covers all the Eldar now renamed to Aeldari and Drukhari. Harlequins and Ynnari are covered, along with the Necrons. The armies still have a very similar feel to what you will be familiar with but with some needed changes to fit in with the new rules.

Xenos 2 is filled with Orks, Tau, Tyranids and Genestealer Cult. Again laid out in the same manor as 1.

The books are functional and everything you need to play your current army is including. Profiles are familiar and easily usable to those experienced with the game. Those that aren't will pick them up quickly. Some changes to how you get certain options has changed, for instance the Ork Warboss no longer has a Warlike option instead we now have 2 profiles. 1 for a Warboss on foot and 1 for a Warboss on bike. I like the separation as it helps simplify making selections, with no need to manually add things like extra toughness and armour save that a bike provided before. Overall I'm more than happy with these books as a way to be able to play 8th on release day.

Play testing 8th

I have 3 games under my belt and several more planned in the coming days. My initial thoughts are that the basic rules have been tidied up but overall it still feels like the same game that we were playing before. Below are a breakdown of the 6 phases and my opinions on the play within these.

Movement:

Lots of change but at the same time no change! What I mean by that is movement distances have changed a lot. Orks now go 5" and Harlequins 8" as standard movement but you still measure and move as before. The big difference in this phase is 'Advancing'. This is what we knew as running in 7th but now its 1D6 added to your movement value. Great simple fix that means less moving models.

Psychic phase:

Huge improvement! It is the similar to the AoS system, and thats a good thing as it works really well. A lot less dice and bloat now. Deny the Witch is lot better as well.

Shooting phase:

Shooting is very powerful, generally it seems that more shoots are coming your way. Expect shooting armies to continue to do very well in 8th. The restrictions that were in place for various weapons in 7th are now gone. You can move and shoot heavy weapons a lot more effectively. You can now charge after firing any type of weapon as well. Assault weapons have seen a change, as you can charge after firing any type of weapon they needed a change. So you can now 'Advance' and shoot an assault weapon at -1 to hit which will be useful for many armies.

Charge phase:

Basically the same, you still need to declare the unit/units you are charging and roll 2D6. No more restrictions for charging through terrain though. The main difference is that you now only need to get to within 1" rather than to base contact. Note that this is WITHIN 1". So you cannot make a 9" charge by rolling 8" as you will be an inch away. You can make a 8.5" charge by rolling an 8 though which is great and removes some of that did you/didn't you make a critical charge.

Fight phase:

Initiative has gone! All charging units fight first and then you alternate picking which units fight. Can lead to some tactical decisions with who fights in what order. Combat armies do very well in this phase. Flat numbers for hitting is a huge boost for some armies like Orks, now hitting on 3+ rather than 4's as it commonly was in 7th. Getting them into a fight can be tricky with the extra volume of shooting. No more sweeping advances either.

Morale phase:

No more leadership checks in each phase, it is all rolled up into this one phase, which speeds things along. If you've lost a model at any point in the turn you need to take a morale check. You roll a D6 and add your loses to this, compare this to your leadership. Each point over your leadership means a model flees and is removed from the table.

Vehicles:

Massive change in vehicles, a lot more powerful! No more dying to 1 shoot is great and they are so much more resilient. I liked armour values for different facings as this added in some tactical depth to moving your forces around to get the best shot. I am very unsure about being able to charge vehicles into combat and tie units up and vehicles then fighting back is odd! I can see it makes sense behind it but its a big change that doesn't feel natural yet.

Characters:

Wow! Great improvements! A lot hardier with less ways to be killed in one shot or hit. They generally all provide a decent set of buffs to units that are nearby. I expect a lot of armies will be built around a characters buffs. Units that can ignore the no shooting characters unless they are the nearest model could become very useful now as getting rid of the extra buffs can make a big difference to the other army.

Points:

2 points options now, I have only used Power Points which is a flat value for each unit based on how powerful it is on the battlefield. I really like this, so easy and quick to put an army together. The matched play points look ok but it looks like it will be harder work putting an army list together.

Command points and force organisation:

It's really good to see formations gone as this was really the main problem with 7th in my opinion. The force orgs that they provide in the new rule set are great and provide a lot of flexibility while also being a bit more restrictive as well! They also look to encourage a lot troops which I think is good. The bonuses for being a Battle Forged army is command points, these are a good addition which help you to keep a unit alive, inflict some more damaged before it can happen to you, or get a curial re-roll. The can be game changers and something very different to think about and use.

Overall:

I am impressed with the game so far. It still feels like 40k which was one of my concerns hearing the rules as they were being teased to us. It plays quicker and for the most part simpler. For me the best thing is all the new profiles for the armies. This is giving armies a complete new feel and for the first time in a long time it looks like most units have a place and will be affective on the table. It is exciting to try a lot of different things out.

I'm looking forward to playing some more games! Something that I haven't really been fused about with 40k for a long while!

It won't be dying! I am glad HH has stayed with 7th though! 8th is a different game and while it has lost some of the depth, that is good for 40k. I personally feel it would be bad for the heresy rules currently. However for 40k it's great and it's fun to play and the balance feels better, not perfect, but better.

Yes it is a little simple, armour facings going is shame and just arriving 9" away isn't as dramatic or cool as it was. However from a new player point of view I think it's good they gone. We could perhaps do with something in between though for more experienced players.

I hated the armor facing thing, and I was pretty happy about that being removed. My Imperial Knights are a lot more resilient in this edition. In 7th edition, I would lose a Knight in just a single turn from being glanced to death, it was annoying.

Horus Heresy will only stay 7th until they figure out a way to move the entire range to 8th. It makes no sense for GW to curate two rulesets that are basically the same game.The "we will continue 7th" is just a bridge for them to really figure out what to do.

In saying that, after playing a couple of games of 8th I cannot WAIT for HH to move away from 7th. 8th is faster, simpler and more fun without any of the rules-bloat and contradictory USRs. I will reserve judgement for their "new 7th rulebook" they are releasing though.

vehicle facings could have been kept or added back in as varrying tougness or armor save, but the damage tables and old vehicle armor rules in general were a mess that rendered many units useless and GW had obviously given up on them ages ago as almost all the new walker models recently were randomly classified as monstrous creatures instead.

Deep strike scatter also needed to go, as the only deep striking units that ever saw any use were the ones with rules that did away with the risks of scattering anyway.

I have mixed feelings on Ws vs Ws. On the one hand, it was interesting, but what it mostly amounted to was melee attacks doing EVEN LESS damage compared to shooting attacks, in a game that was already dominated by shooting.

Tanaki, if you leave a Knight unsupported or in the open, then it SHOULD be destroyed in shooting in a turn. I play Knights and Land Raiders etc, but I love the vehicle damage chart. When stuff explodes it is very cinematic! Now we have a version of 40K that feels like it was designed for accountants to play, slowly counting down the wounds until something is gone.

There is no problem with wounds as a concept, or having the same system for MCs and vehicles, with armour saves, but we should have both a vehicle damage chart to roll on and another for Monstrous Creatures to represent them being blinded, head shot etc. I would have made these charts less random by making them on 2D6.

What would have helped would be upping the price of meltas and grav guns and introducing armoured ceramite as an option. There was no need to strip out every bit of detail and cinematic fun from the game.

What you say about Deep Strike isn't true Roderick, many chaos players used Oblits for example which had no deep strike mitigation. I also saw lots of other units deepstriking. Maybe not the super expensive ones, but cheaper ones were worth the risk. In fact calculating whether deepsstriking was worth the risk was a fun part of the game. Great fun for you when you pull off a crazy deepstrike, great fun for your opponent when you don't!

Dan FW have said the rules are diverging and they will stick with 7th, or their own versions of it in future. They said this at Warhammerfest.

Urgh, I hate these fan boy pages which give a total nonsensical opinion of the game for anyone over the ages of 13.

The point system is completely retarded:A Heavy Weapons squad with Heavy Bolters is exactly the same points cost and as a squad with Lascannons....yea great balance that is :/All this is going to do is bring even more divide into the community, now when i turn up at a local store I have to find someone who plays 40k with the actually points system, and if he doesnt, then wait 30 min for him to write a list...which will probably be wrong because of how easy it is to make a mistake in it...and in the next edition points systems will be gone because GW will say "no-one uses it anymore" and we will be left with this joke of a points system

There is so little tactical element to this game now:7th ed was bad for the lack of thought needed but this is even worse...just line your guys up in a nice gunline and blast each other off the table...unless you play a combat army in which case just run at the enemy.Do I fire my squad with bolters and a missile launcher at the enemy tac squad or the dreadnought? Who cares, I can split fireDo I risk charging through terrain? Of course, terrain does nothing nowDo I risk showing my side armour to the enemy? Who cares, I am same T all roundDo I risk putting my models to close to each other? Who cares, blasts and templates now just do D6 shots/hits

Movement and positioning means nothing this edittion...the most movement you will ever do is either move models forward to get in range of the enemy or move them backwards to get out of range...yea great tactics that is

All the character has gone from each of the unitsJust the assault cannon, used to be on a 6 to wound it ignores armour, now its just AP-1Special rules such as deepstrike are all the same for every unit but just under different names

This was a great chance for GW to really fix things up but they totaly failed

Firstly, jgascoine, I don't like the first part of your comment, you don't need to personally attack people to get your point over. That type of comment is not welcome here. They are my honest opinions of the games that I have played. We are, of course, a fan boy page, all blogs and community sites are really. We are fans of what GW and FW produce otherwise we wouldn't have invested so much time and money into the products.

Secondly I can see that we will not be agreeing on many things so I will try and explain my stand point. I do not play 40k in a competitive setting and never will. I want to play games that are fun and fluffy, often with mission specific rules.

Heresy is my favourite game system and I am pleased that we are staying in 7th. The depth that it provides is a lot better for the legions. I had lost a lot of enjoyment for playing 40k in recent months and the prospect of 8th turning towards a more AoS style had me very concerned. However now that I have played some games I can see that the changes are, in my opinion, mostly for the better. I am unsure about the vehicles currently and the lack of rules around terrain is a tad disappointing. However this is the first of a new edition of 40k and it can improve from here.

As for the points systems I fully expect that the match play points will be what I and the community as a whole will be using. However I do really like the power points. They are really easy to use and write a list with. They are not as balanced as well as the match play points, but for the games I am playing at the moment it's perfect. I want to play the new rule set and learn the rules, and at the same time try out a load of different units without spending a lot of time list building. Power points allow me to do that.

In the groups that I play we want to have fun games with the units that we like and we don't play the latest and greatest power lists. Quite frankly I couldn't care less if my oppenent had more points on the table than me as long as they were fun to play and we have a good game.

The tactical depth of the game has changed, however the game isn't just about killing each and you still have to claim objectives and plan strategy. Killing is a large part of the game and it happens a lot and quickly in 8th but that is all part of learning a new version. How do I keep my stuff alive!

As for the armies losing character, I can not comment on the armies that you play but for my Orks and Harlequins I am happy with where they are positioned in terms of rules at the moment and I'm sure more flavour will come with codexes in the coming months. The Orks feel better than they did in 7th but they lost loads of character between the 5th and 6th edition codex. The Harlequins have for the most part stayed as they were.

The new AP is in my opinion much better than the previous version. It feels more natural than 7th's.

Didnt mean to personally attack you, and maybe i was a bit strong, but with so many of the reviews I have been seeing all i get from them is "well this bit is not good, and this bit could use some work, but its still a good rules set....even though I will continue to play HH using 7th ed rules!!!!!!" I am sorry but when anyone says they prefer to use 7th ed rules, and the utter *** fest that devolved into then you know they F'ed up with 8th.

And I am not a competitive gamer at all, I have 3 armies; Eldar, Tzeentch daemons and Space Marines...except I have played about 2 games with Eldar and Daemons with the current rules because of the OP broken rules for them. However I like BALANCED games, the new power points system is not balanced and is just used as a gimmik by GW to sell more models...and bewarned this will only get worse. Just look at AoS when it was released. "Do you want to use your 10000 point army against a 1000 point army? Well now you can, but dont worry though...its balanced by opjectives" Yea look how that turned out.Also it wasnt needed. If you wanted to use all your models vs your all your opponents models and not care about balance then you could do that...No GW police came up to you to stop it.

The tactical depth is gone. From the few games I have played and the BR I have watched online there is nothing. Flyers shooting lasers out their ass, Land Raiders shooting lasers out their exhaust pipes. Flanking does nothing, snipers cant pick off special weapons, movement is not penalised (which is both good and bad, but means you can just walk back with heavy weapon squads and shoot). You cant tie units up in combat any more.As for deployment its basically, if it can deepstrike you deepstrike it, because there is 0 reason not to. No risk/reward strategy, nothing. Please someone give me 1 example of a tactical element 8th has over 7th (and again 7th has very little tactical element)

The biggest change to the movement phase? You can now run in the movement phase instead of in the shooting phase. Wow. Bravo GW, what a bold move that was. Bringing in a rule most of us used anyway since what 4th ed?Oh no sorry you can now bring in all reserves on turn 1, without rolling for them. Ok greatAnd deepstrikes dont scatter but must by 9" away from enemy....because that drop pod was really scared of scratching its paint on an enemy orc.

The biggest thing I like about 8th is the damage to vehicles/monsters over time, I will give GW that, it was a good move. However I think monsters are still too weak over vehicles. Tanks are just too tanky and the monsters just seem to die to quickly to multiple wounds

I dont know about Orks or Harlequins, never played them...but I look at my space marines and just think, f it, i will play HH

And this is coming from someone who was hyped for 8th. My last game in 7th was maybe a year ago...possible longer, and that was just 1 game. I saw 8th as a huge opportunity to make a fun game. Different units have different versions of standard rules such as infiltrate, deep strike, interact with cover differently, move and fire weapons differently etc etc. They all do the same thing but with a different name, and most of the baggage from 7th ed is still here

I`m happy with a lot of the changes. the vehicles losing their armour facings and being replaced with toughness is just a streamline situation to save time. much like the change from 2nd to 3rd that got rid of the hitting different locations on a vehicle and them having different armor values, along with having multiple different dice to roll (d3,d4,d6,d8,12.etc0 for armor penetration.

I did like the explanation during the live feed of flyers shooting behind them. They said that the flyers might have shot during their movement before they flew over the target. Even tanks might have turned around, shot then moved.

also, I dont think most people will use power levels and will contiue to use points. I am bummed that HH is not switching to 8th, since I mostly only play in tournaments and many in my area allowed HH armies in 40k tournaments. I loved playing with the HH armies, but didnt have much luck againgst many 40k builds. Now that wont be an option.

btw, sorry for any mispelled words, for some reason every word more than 2 letters is red underlined.

I think it has become really obvious that the tournament players have had a huge hand in designing this edition.

Firstly we have had to put up with all the big websites promoting every aspect of the game with no criticism, it is like living in a one party state. When criticism is made in the comments GW's army of shills emerges. Theres a lot of store managers out there and most of them seem to have accounts on BoLS etc...

Secondly all the fun bits of the game, that have been removed, were the ones that made life hard for tournament organisers. Deciding the angle on a vehicle's facing, deciding how many models were under a template, where a scatter went etc etc. I never had any problems with any of these things playing with friends. Judging by comments its americans who are hyper competitive who make these causes of arguments. Now, to please the TOs all the fun is gone.

Lastly the other elements of randomness is gone. The cinematic bits, the explodes results etc. Now units do predictable amounts of damage and 40K is a game of cost accounting.

With all casualty removal rules, facings etc stripped out, there is little need for shooting armies to move. Melee armies just run at each other. EVeryone tries to fill their table half with chaff to prevent deepstrike and being sucked into melee. The game looks like AoS!!!

Hi as you have the xenos book 2 could you by any chance do me a huge favour and confirm the points for a killsaw? My bf was trying to find out before he gets his copy on Saturday but I can't read it from the pic he had �� You'd be a lifesaver!

I appreciate the review ... my biggest question about the new game seems to be about the movement into melee during the charge phase and the 'pile in' or 'consolidate' 3" phase... it seems like that is where a lot of the rules in Age of Sigmar (and now 8th 40K) get messed up as there is actually A LOT more to it than just running forward into melee with any sort of unit (for single characters it is fine)... you didn't mention in your review anything about Pistols, or Overwatch, or the 3" Pile In... so can you comment more on those? Especially for Orks as I see it being a very crucial part of the game for them!

Moving into melee hasn't changed really, except you don't need to get to base contact but within 1". The 3" pile is also the same only no restriction on direction, as long as you finish nearer to the enemy unit than you started. You can also pull other units into combat by getting within 1" of them during pile in or charging.

Overwatch is still the same, except you can keep shooting overwatch until a unit makes it to within 1" of them.

Pistols can be shot if you are locked in combat (within 1"). They can only target who you are fighting and it can only be done in your shooting phase. You cannot shot into or out of combat still.

3" consolidation happens at the end of the phase. You can move 3" in any direction as long as you end up closer to the nearest enemy unit.

Personally I'm going to hold any opinions until I've played a few games but I must say this. I don't understand all the unnecessary rage coming from viewers of this site towards you guys over this. It's not like you wrote the new rules.

I must say, I do find it intriguing that everyone can split fire now, that's far more realistic and will make me think more how to use my available weaponry. Admittedly, I don't see what all the fuss about lack of tactics is, I don't think I've actually seen anyone use tactics against me outside my little regular gaming circle. Unless you count Zurg Rush a legitimate tactic... well I guess it did work for the Soviets.

To be honest if I don't like it, I'll continue playing 7th. I'm glad that heresy is staying with 7th, I agree with Darien that the depth really helps make it.

I just realised when I got distracted by my Wife coming home I missed a chunk of what I was going to write. My point about tactics should read:

Admittedly, I don't see what all the fuss about lack of tactics is, I don't think I've actually seen anyone use tactics against me outside my little regular gaming circle. Unless you count Zurg Rush a legitimate tactic... well I guess it did work for the Soviets. People seem to follow only one of two ways of playing the game, charge for the objectives of charge the foe. Beyond those I've seen very little in person. Admittedly, my gaming group is a group who grew up studying military tactics and our first Wargames were Challenger II, a game that was built around replicating military tactics from the cold war, if anyone ever says the rules for Warhammer are complex I get out the tome that is the Challenger II rule book that makes even the 6th ed 40k one look like a short story.

Unfortunately I think rage over change is part of the community and not a lot will be going away. It's a really shame.

Tactics on a 6x4 will always be difficult not enough space to move around especially with the common size of games! The games of 8th I've played all felt like 40k did in 7th mostly but with some tweaks and a different order to some bits!

The split fire is something that I haven't been able to use yet but is a cool feature! Marines will really benefit from it!

The rage will subside. When end tines went into AOS, the community was toxic. That was more of an understandable rage. They literally blew up the world, changed bases from square to round and changed the game away from blocks of troops.

That said, it's taken over a year, but the rage has almost totally subsided. It should be quicker with 40k. Plus it's not as drastic of a change as second to third or first to second.

I think there is more depth / tactics than what people are saying. I found myself thinking a lot more about unit placement , setting up charges, shooting in general, keeping HQ's alive, deepstriking more often ( which I barely ever used to do at all) . Things are just different and definitely going to take some getting used too. I don't like some changes , so far I have been having a good time. Which is the most important thing.

I'm intrigued by 8th edition, but I lost interest in 40k 7th edition with knights and detachment and other stuff when I just wanted a simple matched point game! So for me HH in 7th with it's fluff, style of play and the models is perfect for what I'm after!But I think I might see if I can get a game of 8th to see how it plays!!

Vehicles are resilient in some aspects but generally more vulnerable to massed small arms fire and HTH Also Alpha striking is the main problem with the game nowbeen tabling my opponents in multiple games with my army

Like:1) Split fire2) Tanks being able to mostly fire all weapons a turn3) Templates being binned off (two much chance for user error and stringing out battle lines to reduce masses damage, in a unrealistic way). 4) vehicles effectiveness decreasing due to damage. 5) simple easy to read to hit rolls. 6) Save modifiers!7) Damage (taking off multiple wounds). 8) Charging with vehicles (makes sense). 9) Getting rid of the flyer phase (I could be wrong though as have not heard too much about it). 10) different move distances (makes sense).

Dislike:1) Armour values disappearing (should have had higher toughness values at different faces). 2) Getting rid of initiative. 3) Leadership (though my opinion of this could change). 4) I don't like how it feels the match play section of the books. I would prefer it as a different colour under the unit entry so if that is how you are playing then you can easily do it.

When you deploy you have to deploy MORE THAN 9" away, you cannot deploy exactly 9" away. So once deployed you have to make a 9" charge as the minimum you can deploy is 9.01 inches away which is more than 8" away hence requires a 9" charge to get into combat.

I imagine guard, or "astra militarum", I'll never get used to saying that, are going to be a power house this edition from what I'm reading. Maybe it's time to dust off the old Valhallan or Mordian army. Speaking of guard, I wonder what the new models will be like, what with cadia being gone. Come on GW papa wants to grow his Valhallan regiment a little more with some plastic. Not that I get to use that army much, not to often my gaming group can justify playing a 10,000 pt game, it takes me an hour to go through my turn alone.

In the context of the game it can't work like that. You can't be an inch away from an enemy model and at the same time be within an inch. As you can't shoot if an enemy of the model is within an inch. You see the problem?

Not really. Anything further away than an inch equals not in combat and can shoot anything within an inch (an inch or less away) you are in combat and cant shoot. Not really sure what the issue is? Currently RAW this is how it works.

If this argument is about getting an 8" charge from deep strike, that won't work since the deep strike says you must deploy more than 9" from enemy. So 8" charge would put you more than one inch from the enemy.

interesting how? they look like garbage to me, Reecius is on record as saying they did the worst of the factions in the index they are in during playtesting. Scat bikes are destroyed (they needed a nerf but comon, lose jump shoot jump, -1 hit for moving with scats, increased points, s6 wounds t4 on 3s not 2s anymore. Say goodbye to the wraithknight until the codex drops, 450 (ish) points for what ammounts to 2 s10 lascannon shots, no thanks.

They needed a nerf, but im not interested in playing a garbage book until the codex drops, lucky for me i have 4-5 armies, just happens that while ive got close to 6k painted eldar, my other armies look like crap, sorry future opponents.

I've only had a brief look at them but the increased move distance is cool, the aspect warriors look better. Banshees should be useful again when combined with assault from transports. The wraithknight and jetbikes were far to good in 7th, they look better now compared to everyone else's stuff. WK has two guns, so 4 shots. It is high in points but so are all monsters and vehicles. It can't be locked in combat so will always be shooting and charging in every turn. Give them ago and I'm sure you will find something good for them!

I do wish people would stop complaining about the Power Levels - I, like you, really love them. I'm way more interested in a fun narrative game with fun people than in a perfectly "balanced" match. PL is great if the players want to quickly muster their forces, especially if they don't give a poop about minmax/WAAC etc. Being a modeler first and foremost, I don't consult points when building my models. I go with what "looks cool." PL is perfect for me.