(2017-09-12 07:46)finster Wrote: Just playing around with speaker positions tonight. There is nothing in space+ that refers to speaker toe in. However going from straight to 1 cm toe in makes a huge difference (was careful not the change the outer side distance to wall).

I assume Exakt anticipates a degree of toe in as this would impact dispersion within the room?

Hi Finster,

I am now back in Vancouver, after a couple of road trips, to Niagara Falls-Michigan and Montana.

One of the ladies in Montana, that I just visited on Friday, (Natalie), has a pair of Killer Keltiks, driven by Klouts, Akurate Kontrol and an Akurate DS.

She had her Killer Keltiks about 9-10 feet apart, facing the width of the room. I toed them in significantly. In fact they were toed-in more than any other speaker I have done yet.

It was the only way to get a decent centre image for that set-up.

The room settings were premeasured prior to my visit, and I did not change them, even with the toe-in. The listening room was quite large, and was L-shaped, branching off into the kitchen.

There was a large set of windows behind the speakers, that spanned all the way from the left speaker to the right speaker.

When finished, the imaging in the room was quite excellent, and filled the whole main floor of the house with music.

Finster's listening room is about 14-15 feet wide, by 25 feet long, with the Killer Keltiks firing down the length of the room. As it is a rectangular room, with no other anomalies, I would do far less toe-in.

With my experience of now completing 57 SPACE optimizations in different Linn systems, toe-in does not result in a change the room distance and speaker placement measurement settings entered into Konfig.

From experience of using toe-in, best to keep the point where the centre line of the speaker meets the front panel as the distance to the front wall of the room, for SO measurement purposes. Using measurement from the corner of the speaker (the standard description designed for no toe-in) doesn't work so well.

(2017-09-12 19:25)sunbeamgls Wrote: From experience of using toe-in, best to keep the point where the centre line of the speaker meets the front panel as the distance to the front wall of the room, for SO measurement purposes. Using measurement from the corner of the speaker (the standard description designed for no toe-in) doesn't work so well.

Agreed. Shouldn't make too much difference for small angles of toe in on narrow baffled speakers. If your speakers are quite wide (Isobariks and Keltiks for example) or the toe in is greater than about 15 degrees then it is worth doing as Sunbeam suggests.

Phil,
thanks for the confirmation related to distance used with speakers toe-in.

I assume the same is true for a Subs?

Due to placement restrictions my sub has around 35 degree toe-in. The front wall distance i had already measured as recommended. But what is about the distance to the left wall. Any corrections required as well? Of cause the difference from the sub corner to the wall is with toe-in different to a sub without toe-in.

(2017-09-13 21:25)Charly Wrote: Phil,
thanks for the confirmation related to distance used with speakers toe-in.

I assume the same is true for a Subs?

Due to placement restrictions my sub has around 35 degree toe-in. The front wall distance i had already measured as recommended. But what is about the distance to the left wall. Any corrections required as well? Of cause the difference from the sub corner to the wall is with toe-in different to a sub without toe-in.

(2017-09-16 14:55)Musiclover2 Wrote: Hi Finster
Excited to read your posts
What was your previous set up and what exaktbox and ds are you using?

Alan

Hey Alan, previously I had klimax XO for keltiks and classe cp800 pre-amp with integrated DAC. Also used an Ifi Ilink digital USB to spdif converter. These pieces replaced by renew KDSM/1 and akurate exakbox 6. it sounded great before but now a different level again At this point I am playing with Exakt design looking at dialling in the crossover parameters for the killer keltiks (non standard drive units) - it's proving a challenge for my wee brain! More to come hopefully when I nail it with help from the experts lots of fun though and getting an education on speaker measurement and xover setup.

Hey Paul good stuff and very convenient you have just setup some keltiks, how did they sound? My room is close to what you say, a bit longer and slightly narrower. I do have one room anomaly which is a cut out for a fireplace on the right wall between right speaker and listener. I am sure you know how to deal with that in space though!

Now you have competed 57 official optimizations must be time for a promotion ! Maybe SpaceMaster General, although quite a step up from Space Cadet?

Really pleased to get you over here (30 km east) whenever works for you. Will ping you!

Cheers
Andy

(2017-09-12 15:13)Paulssurround Wrote:

(2017-09-12 07:46)finster Wrote: Just playing around with speaker positions tonight. There is nothing in space+ that refers to speaker toe in. However going from straight to 1 cm toe in makes a huge difference (was careful not the change the outer side distance to wall).

I assume Exakt anticipates a degree of toe in as this would impact dispersion within the room?

Hi Finster,

I am now back in Vancouver, after a couple of road trips, to Niagara Falls-Michigan and Montana.

One of the ladies in Montana, that I just visited on Friday, (Natalie), has a pair of Killer Keltiks, driven by Klouts, Akurate Kontrol and an Akurate DS.

She had her Killer Keltiks about 9-10 feet apart, facing the width of the room. I toed them in significantly. In fact they were toed-in more than any other speaker I have done yet.

It was the only way to get a decent centre image for that set-up.

The room settings were premeasured prior to my visit, and I did not change them, even with the toe-in. The listening room was quite large, and was L-shaped, branching off into the kitchen.

There was a large set of windows behind the speakers, that spanned all the way from the left speaker to the right speaker.

When finished, the imaging in the room was quite excellent, and filled the whole main floor of the house with music.

Finster's listening room is about 14-15 feet wide, by 25 feet long, with the Killer Keltiks firing down the length of the room. As it is a rectangular room, with no other anomalies, I would do far less toe-in.

With my experience of now completing 57 SPACE optimizations in different Linn systems, toe-in does not result in a change the room distance and speaker placement measurement settings entered into Konfig.

(2017-09-13 21:25)Charly Wrote: Phil,
thanks for the confirmation related to distance used with speakers toe-in.

I assume the same is true for a Subs?

Due to placement restrictions my sub has around 35 degree toe-in. The front wall distance i had already measured as recommended. But what is about the distance to the left wall. Any corrections required as well? Of cause the difference from the sub corner to the wall is with toe-in different to a sub without toe-in.

Similar situation here - clarifications welcome!

If the crossover frequency of the sub is low enough its orientation, let alone toe-in shouldn't matter at all.

Well its been a couple of weeks now with the Exakt'd Keltiks and one very interesting journey thus far - let me fill you in...

Started off with my system using the Linn standard Keltik XO model based on the 007/38 drivers - immediately sound was groovy as I mentioned in my original post. But was aware that this was a low cost of entry option (cost being effort) for me and there was more to come with XOs specifically measured to my drive units. So I began my foray into the world of ExaktDesign in search of optimal digital bliss...

First to admit I only have a rudimentary knowledge of crossover design, basically I get the principles involved but like to think I am smart enough and willing to learn the nuances as needed. I think I can say from my couple of weeks experience with Linn's ExaktDesign solution they make things fairly simple to get going and put together an adequate XO model, but I found out as I progressed deeper to really to get the absolute best out of your speakers (if they are non-standard) takes a lot of time, measuring, attention to detail and learning. For instance I had no idea they difference between a 2nd order roll off and 6th, let alone significance of a "butterworth" compared to "linkwitz-riley" type!

As it turned out Linn support was stunning (in the shape of Philbo) - with patience and no hint of condescension he took me through the entire process.

Day 1&2
Measure Drive units
I had to build a basic little circuit, that gets plugged into my PC soundcard and the other end driver connection at back speakers
Run REW (room equaliztion wizard) free software which measures the impedance response of the drive unit.
I measured all my drive units on the left and right speakers and saved the files.
As it turned out Phil spotted a problem, my isobarik bass units need to be measured as a system not individually as I only have a 6 channel exaktbox (therefore 1 channel per speaker for the bass). Phil explained, that's why I was seeing a double resonance hump on my bass measurement graphs.
So another pair of banana plugs added to me measurement circuit and bass was updated. Much happier graph.

Days 3/4/5/6
Now with measurements taken I get to translate these into key parameters that ExaktDesign needs. Again Linn/Philbo makes this very easy by providing a little spreadsheet. Using REW your analyse your impedance graphs for each drive unit and capture key points of intersection on the chart and plug the results into the spreadsheet. It should be straightforward but I made a couple of mistakes, again Phil was kind enough to review my numbers and keep me straight. The spreadsheet is invaluable for sure, but for the novice like myself more explanation would probably help. I believe Philbo is planning to put together some tutorial videos which will absolutely help here.
I built many XOs over the course of the first few days, but was completely thrown by the fact that whatever XOs I tried that I built through ExaktDesign - they were much quieter than the Linn Keltik standard XOs. I immediately thought I had messed up somewhere such was the difference. I even had a back and forth email thread with SunbeamGLS about this in case he had experienced something similar - but nope.
As it turned out, for Linn's version of the Keltik XOs gain is added to match the sound levels with similar analogue based XO systems.
Once I had this piece of info it gave me confidence to push on.

Days 7-Now
I was fairly happy with my custom XOs, until I listened to what Phil had built for me (or as he put it "tossed together for you"). He had my original measurements and could not believe he took the time put together a revised XO for me and an explanation of some of the anomalies with my mid range drivers and how he adjusted for them. I made some adjustments to what Phil sent me across the levels for the drive units (bass was too much) - this is due to the gain on my Bryston being higher than the Tundras and Phil not having the benefit of listening to it playback. The system sounds so good now, bass has nice weight and definition and everything feels integrated with flow of music. Phil has set me on the path (oh wise one) plenty of homework to come for sure.

Right now I am just enjoying the music. Just signed up for Tidal Hi-res also