taxandspend:GAT_00: Yes, I'm sure there are no robberies in states like Arizona that have open carry legal.

According to this data, Arizona looks to be at the low end of the scale when it comes to armed robberies with just 18.4 per 100,000 population. Its firearms murder rate is at 2.24 per 100,000 population, however firearms murders represent 65% of all murders in the state. It also has a firearms assault rate of 57.36 per 100,000.

In comparison, Washington D.C. has 12.46 firearms murders per 100,000 population with a rate of 71% of all murders involving firearms. Its armed robberies rate stands at 242.56 per 100,000 (the highest in the nation) and its armed assaults stand at 87.7 per 100,000, which is only lower than a few states including Tennessee and South Carolina.

The arguement that criminals procure firearms by any means necessarry is true but it doesn't answer the following question:

"Do the guns owned by law abiding citizens simply vanish once they choose criminality?"

We shoud reconize the fact that the law abiding gun owner and the criminal can be the same person. It is the same person in two different states. This is why the realtionship that seperates one observed state from the other is extremely important when we discuss solutions to gun violence.

If you want a "conversation" about gun laws and crime, than the place we need to start with is our obscenely stupid instant background check system.

For those of you who don't know, when you go to buy a gun, this is what happens:- You walk into a gun store and pick a gun.- You fill out a federal form with your name, address, SSN, race and a bunch of Yes/No questions (are you a criminal, are you mentally ill, did you surrender your US citizenship). You answer Yes to the first one, and No to all the others and sign.- They call (or now, use a website) and run your name through NICS, which is basically a lightweight PASS/FAIL version of the FBI national criminal database.- You pay for your gun and you walk out the door. Some states have a waiting period.

That's it.

This system is monumentally stupid for a whole host of reasons.

1- The most germane reason in regards to DC crime; all you do to get around it is send in a friend with a clean criminal record who buys the gun for you. A so-called "straw purchase."

2- The NICS system doesn't look at local criminal records or police databases. This is where your going to find police contact due to mental illness, drug use or domestic violence. Only fully sorted court convictions show up in NICS. If the police have been at your address 4 times in the last year for various calls, the system needs to be able to ask that and it would be totally appropriate to have someone from law enforcement look into it a bit more and ask you what's up before you purchase a gun.

3- The gatekeepers of the system are gun retailers. Most gun dealers are businesses on the up and up, for no other reason than dealing with the BATF just scares the bejesus out of them. Even so, there are clearly firearm dealers that are a nexus for straw purchases, likely because they are doing a piss poor job or even flagrantly violating the law.

We already have all the infrastructure required to solve this problem. 48 states have concealed weapons license systems that include through national, state and local background checks, including running the buyer's name through the local police information databases. Those checks are conducted by the sheriff's department, who has the capability to follow up with a license application with an interview or more through investigation if any flags are found.

The solution is simple; harmonize CCW laws across the country by setting minimal standards for all states that includes classroom training, range time, and education about gun safety and secure storage (with a new emphasis on securing firearms from family members). Require this license to buy a gun, go to a public range, receive a hunting license or purchase ammo. Ditch the NICS system and simply have gun stores call in the license to make sure it is currently valid and has no holds.

Of course, nobody is talking about doing this. Democrats are in too deep a fit of hysteria and the Republicans are too stupid that their ability to breath is surprising. The NRA has turned into an entrenched organization of Fudds who won't move an inch, mostly because the Democrats have given them all the reason not to be trusted.

If you are unarmed and you steal a gun. Is it an armed robbery when you leave?

Thanks

Depends on situation.If I am carrying a firearm, and you grab it out of my hands and hold me at bay while you escape, yes.If I am carrying a firearm and you knock me down, grab it, and run without threatening me, it's probably some aggravated sort of robbery while in possession of a firearm, but I doubt it would be considered armed robbery.If you burglarize my home without a weapon, but you find one of my guns and take it, it turns into a higher degree of burglary at that moment (at least under FL law).

As far as laws and guns go, I keep thinking back to something I read a week or so ago about that Lanza guy. Although he was sick, mean, remorseless, and committed any number of firearm and other offenses, his rifle wasn't misused.

pueblonative:Giltric: Empty Matchbook: Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

Nobodys claiming the game gives them good aim...hell half the people playing have like a sub 20% accuracy.

Its the taking livesfor kicks and laughing part....especially if the kid is a bit prone to la la land fantasies...like the kid who shot up the school in newtown that spent hours upon hours in his room playing games like that....or the columbine kids who claimed what they were going to do would be just like playing the game Doom.

Or it could be the anti psychotics, anti-depressents, SSRIs etc ....or maybe a combination of the two....where there is smoke, there is fire.

doglover:pueblonative: Giltric: Empty Matchbook: Peter von Nostrand: Hahahaha. Too funny subs. Everyone knows violence is due to video games and Hollywood. Saint LaPierre said so himself

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

Or even have him deal with the pain in the ass of hauling around ammunition, loading magazines, recoil, not unlocking new things with simple button pushes, and not having a dozen friends on voice chat while he does it.

If video games cause violent behavior, we'd be seeing more savagery than a full on Viking raid every day because everyone I know, including girls, plays violent video games at least sometimes.

Some people get tazed and have a heart attack....some people don;t....some people smoke crack and get hooked, some people don;t

SOme people play games and know that it is a game....some people get the game and real life confused.

The bigger connection with all the school shooters is the medication they were on.

If you are unarmed and you steal a gun. Is it an armed robbery when you leave?

Thanks

Depends on situation.If I am carrying a firearm, and you grab it out of my hands and hold me at bay while you escape, yes.If I am carrying a firearm and you knock me down, grab it, and run without threatening me, it's probably some aggravated sort of robbery while in possession of a firearm, but I doubt it would be considered armed robbery.If you burglarize my home without a weapon, but you find one of my guns and take it, it turns into a higher degree of burglary at that moment (at least under FL law).

Vegan Meat Popsicle:The_Sponge: I love all the gun grabbers who want to take away the rights from those of us who live in freedom-loving states.

Freedom means never having to be responsible for anything you do! FREEDOM!

I have relatives in Virginia, and boy, are those mofos free! They're so free, they're the number one exporter of guns used in crimes outside their own incredibly free state. There are people who literally make a living buying guns in VA and selling them on the street in other states. FREEDOM!

Wooly Bully:Vegan Meat Popsicle: The_Sponge: I love all the gun grabbers who want to take away the rights from those of us who live in freedom-loving states.

Freedom means never having to be responsible for anything you do! FREEDOM!

I have relatives in Virginia, and boy, are those mofos free! They're so free, they're the number one exporter of guns used in crimes outside their own incredibly free state. There are people who literally make a living buying guns in VA and selling them on the street in other states. FREEDOM!

Why is crime lower in VA where the gun laws are lax as opposed to DC?

Is everyone commuting to DC tin order to perpetrate crime and mess with the statisticals?

Seeing as how he hasn't been drummed out of the NRA, I can only assume a majority of their members agree!Video Games are violent, especially the first person shooters that advertise their games being as real as it gets without actually dying....and that also promote killing more and more people in order to unlock or gain access to higher powered in game weapons to kill more and more people with..they even employ behavioral specialist to design mechanics that keep people playing.....do you disagree?

Tell you what, the moment you take a kid who's only experience with guns is pushing buttons on a controller during CoD 3, take him out to the gun range, hand him a weapon shown in that video game, and have him score perfect bullseyes time after time, I'll listen to that argument.

Or even have him deal with the pain in the ass of hauling around ammunition, loading magazines, recoil, not unlocking new things with simple button pushes, and not having a dozen friends on voice chat while he does it.

If video games cause violent behavior, we'd be seeing more savagery than a full on Viking raid every day because everyone I know, including girls, plays violent video games at least sometimes.

Because society is exactly the same it was the day the TV was invented. The ONLY thing that has changed is that our entertainments have gotten more violent more realistic and somewhat interactive.

Giltric:Wooly Bully: Vegan Meat Popsicle: The_Sponge: I love all the gun grabbers who want to take away the rights from those of us who live in freedom-loving states.

Freedom means never having to be responsible for anything you do! FREEDOM!

I have relatives in Virginia, and boy, are those mofos free! They're so free, they're the number one exporter of guns used in crimes outside their own incredibly free state. There are people who literally make a living buying guns in VA and selling them on the street in other states. FREEDOM!

Why is crime lower in VA where the gun laws are lax as opposed to DC?

Because they can get guns more easily, of course! I mean, duh.

I think you're very smart, and not a troll, at all.

Giltric:Is everyone commuting to DC tin order to perpetrate crime and mess with the statisticals?

Yes, that must be it! I'm totally serious. Really, I have too much respect for your intelligence to joke about this clever post you just made.

It is true that private sales between individuals require no background checks, this does not hold true for dealers at gun shows. Any firearms purchase from a vendor at a gun show goes through the exact same background check as if the transaction had happened in a gun store. Period. Full stop. Most gun shows have police officers on site to expedite the background checks if needed (and to arrest those who are denied).

If you wish to extend the requirement for background checks to private sales (not a bad idea, IMO), make it simple and as close to free as possible. Otherwise, far too few people will bother. The private gun market would just go underground.

FNS . . . I've read the polls that show (bizarrely, in my view) that Americans are still in favor of mostly arbitrary gun ownership . . . I'm sure you know that the US is a huge outlier among civilized nations in this respect . . . still trying to get my head around the problem. I thought that Michael Moore's film Bowling for Columbine http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/ was relatively insightful. That was a long time ago, and the discussion has not seemed to have moved much since then. Appreciative of any clever insights on the gun issue.

Uranus Is Huge!:The_Sponge: Vegan Meat Popsicle: The_Sponge: I love all the gun grabbers who want to take away the rights from those of us who live in freedom-loving states.

Freedom means never having to be responsible for anything you do! FREEDOM!

I love it when liberals or leftists talk about personal responsibility. It's a joke.

And why are so many pussified males on the side on gun control?

I'm such a pussy, I've never had to carry a gun in my life to feel safe.

It is not about whether or not you own a firearm....it is whether or not you believe in an important right.....over the years, I have known plenty of pro-Second Amendment people who don't even own so much as a .22

Frank N Stein:carpbrain: I thought that Michael Moore's film Bowling for Columbine http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/ was relatively insightful.

That movie was full of shiat and you should feel bad for mentioning it.

Hmmm wow. I think that was his best film. Not sure where you're going with that one. I still appreciate that folks can make up their own minds about things. But this specific movie . . . I really wish every reader would watch it . . . exposed challenging angles about how it comes about that we are a society that wields lethal weapons.

The_Sponge:Uranus Is Huge!: The_Sponge: Vegan Meat Popsicle: The_Sponge: I love all the gun grabbers who want to take away the rights from those of us who live in freedom-loving states.

Freedom means never having to be responsible for anything you do! FREEDOM!

I love it when liberals or leftists talk about personal responsibility. It's a joke.

And why are so many pussified males on the side on gun control?

I'm such a pussy, I've never had to carry a gun in my life to feel safe.

It is not about whether or not you own a firearm....it is whether or not you believe in an important right.....over the years, I have known plenty of pro-Second Amendment people who don't even own so much as a .22

I'm pro-all-the-ammendments. I still don't understand the obsession with guns - lots and lots of guns. The fact that you conflate your love of firearms with masculinity speaks volumes.

That movie was full of shiat and you should feel bad for mentioning it.

Hmmm wow. I think that was his best film. Not sure where you're going with that one. I still appreciate that folks can make up their own minds about things. But this specific movie . . . I really wish every reader would watch it . . . exposed challenging angles about how it comes about that we are a society that wields lethal weapons.

The_Sponge:Uranus Is Huge!: I'm pro-all-the-ammendments. I still don't understand the obsession with guns - lots and lots of guns. The fact that you conflate your love of firearms with masculinity speaks volumes.

It's about believing in a right, pal.

And the fact that I have met many women who appreciate firearms more than YOU, it speaks volumes.

That movie was full of shiat and you should feel bad for mentioning it.

Hmmm wow. I think that was his best film. Not sure where you're going with that one. I still appreciate that folks can make up their own minds about things. But this specific movie . . . I really wish every reader would watch it . . . exposed challenging angles about how it comes about that we are a society that wields lethal weapons.

That movie was a joke....and was full of bullshiat.

Thanks for your valuable input to the discussion, I'm sure all readers will take note of the value of your input.

That movie was full of shiat and you should feel bad for mentioning it.

Hmmm wow. I think that was his best film. Not sure where you're going with that one. I still appreciate that folks can make up their own minds about things. But this specific movie . . . I really wish every reader would watch it . . . exposed challenging angles about how it comes about that we are a society that wields lethal weapons.

I own the DVD and have watched it. It's full of BS. Moore carefully organizes facts in order to craft a narrative that is wholly against reality.

carpbrain:Hmmm wow. I think that was his best film. Not sure where you're going with that one. I still appreciate that folks can make up their own minds about things. But this specific movie . . . I really wish every reader would watch it . . . exposed challenging angles about how it comes about that we are a society that wields lethal weapons.

I should qualify what I said. It is an interesting movie that raises a few good points. However, the film was misleading in a lot of ways.