Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

The Local => Local News & Discussion => Topic started by: Fester on June 17, 2015, 02:31:12 PM

Now to introduce a topic which may spark a lot of controversy, but that is not the intention.

You see there is a very different type of demographic visiting Llandudno these days, and it has accelerated in the last year.It is a subject that is sensitive in many ways, but it is not a subject we should be frightened of discussing.

I note with interest that the old MotorWorld shop in Upper Mostyn street is opening as an Asian takeaway.That will make 3 in Upper Mostyn Street, another planned for the old Vollams shop.... and if you include Bengal Dynasty and The Asia restaurant, that is 6 in total for a very small area.Nothing wrong with that per se, but it does show the different type of products and services being demanded these days.

The Wales tourist board assures us that visitor numbers have never been higher.This might be true, I don't know, but as I write this I am sat on an almost deserted pier in the middle of June!

The few people who are here, are not what you would think of as the traditional seaside visitor.The challenge is to cater for what they want to buy, if indeed they are willing (or able) to buy anything!

In addition, I have seen 4 large school parties today. A massive amount of 'people', but due to 'political correctness' the parents are under strict instruction NOT to send any money with them, as they are not allowed to spend anything, (for fear of embarrassing children who cannot)

Certain traditional businesses have proved to be unviable and closed down in the last year or so, and several others are 'giving it one last go this year'

Llandudno is certainly changing, and the speed of it seems be quicker than most people ever thought possible.

Of course Llandudno is changing. The old people who make up the core of traditional visitors are dying out (quite literally)If Llandudno wants to survive it needs to either cater for families (such as places like St Ives in Cornwall, or Southport nearer to home) or drunks and chavs (Like Blackpool)

Apart from Bonkers fun house and a small play area and arcade on the pier it is not catering for the first lot, and with not a single pub charging much less than £3.50 a pint it's not catering for the second lot either. (Not that I'm saying it should cater to either necessarily)

But if you want the town and it's businesses to 'survive' then the target market needs to change.

Fester...I note with interest that the old MotorWorld shop in Upper Mostyn street is opening as an Asian takeaway.That will make 3 in Upper Mostyn Street, another planned for the old Vollams shop.... and if you include Bengal Dynasty and The Asia restaurant, that is 6 in total for a very small area

I personally feel that upper Mostyn St. needs more quality restaurants and Bistro's ..not takeaways,... Food tourism is big business and this area has the potential.

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B2R...But if you want the town and it's businesses to 'survive' then the target market needs to change.

I've nothing much to say on this topic except that my friend Born2Run is incorrect in his opening statement. Sorry about that, Quote "The old people etc etc." Not so, according to every single available statistic from wherever you like. At the shall I say top end of the age range, yes, deaths take their toll. But entry into this elite group (note elite. I'm one of them HaHa) is beating the exits hand over fist. Watch out, if this carries on we will be overrun by them. Now if you were to say that the new intake have different standards, different desires, different behaviour that is a different matter and I wouldn't like to get involved in an argument on that subject

Fester - you're right to raise this issue. I've waxed quizzical about it on posts ages ago and it could do with some serious research; I daresay Visit Wales, the Llandudno Hospitality Assoc and Conwy's tourism department would have some sort of useful stats to hand which would help give people an idea of the average demographic and whom they need to target for – for want of a better word - “emerging markets”.

Much of it needs untangling – I think Llandudno's blessing AND curse is that it offers such a mixed bag. Now that uniqueness might give it some extra selling points, but it could also hamper it. For example, there are lots of places which are seaside attractions yet not at all like Llandudno. At one end of the spectrum, you have places on the West and South Wales coast, and across Cornwall – beaches that attract a young demographic and target surfers, campers etc and the more “outdoorsy” crowd. Families might also be enticed to these sorts of places as they're an impressive place to take kids.

At the other end, you have what B2R correctly branded the “drunks and chavs” end – not quite as big as Blackpool, but destinations for hen/stag parties and rowdy crowds. Won't attract families due to the high instances of anti-social behaviour and the like. And more often, they tend to have an economic and social background similar to somewhere like Rhyl, or the seaside spots in the North West of England – once a good Victorian destination with lots of nice seafront houses, which eventually became great B&Bs and (later) HMOs. The beaches in these towns may not, in and of themselves, be all that attractive, but supplemented by things like amusements arcades, piers, fairgrounds etc they have been able to make a name for themselves.

And then there are the retirement seaside resorts (Costa del Geriatrica, as someone I knew once put it!). Similar to the above in that they're Victorian resorts but they've not gone down the route of cheaper drinks-party places yet, and instead cater to elderly people who visited once during the 1950s and fell in love with the place. As has rightly been pointed out, this demographic will, over time, dwindle thanks to the natural advancement of time and mortality.

Llandudno doesn't quite fit in to any of these brackets neatly. It has pubs, poundshops and takeaways; but also old hotels and coachloads of elderly visitors; and families keen to enjoy both beaches and both Ormes, the prom and the pier.

And let's not miss the fact that through the Great Orme, it boasts a ski slope; copper mine; cable cars; tram line; fantastic seaside/cliffside route with views across a good chunk of the rest of the North Wales coast and Anglesey; prehistoric fossils; rare flora and fauna; a WWII gun site and, for those who like a bit of a gawp, Millionaire's Row. And for the Little Orme, it has a quarry, seals, the site of the first printing operation in Wales and similarly pleasant views.

Venue Cymru, for all its faults, is starting to tack on to festivals – everything from tattoos to comedy, and the upcoming sci-fi one.

And, through its high street and two big retail outlets, Llandudno also boasts a halfway decent shopping scene, and is a good halfway point between Chester and Bangor when it comes to big stores. There's also an impressive number of independent shops and smaller cafes and restaurants.

Okay, all my rambling aside, the question Llandudno needs to ask is what, with all the eggs in all of the baskets, it's going to do next.

For that, you'd need that demographic profiling I mentioned at the top, and also to take in to account what's going on in the rest of the area. For example, Snowdonia is fast becoming a globally important site for extreme sports, with the development of the zipline in Bethesda and the new surf pool near Dolgarrog. Nearby Eglwysbach has the Welsh Food Centre. Colwyn Bay, oft lamented, is starting to attract big acts and is making a slow turnaround.

Does Llandudno try to go for pieces of the same pie? Or would that risk doubling up and splitting visitors to the area, when it ought to make a whole new pie of its own?

We can't start that discussion without knowing what the current make-up of visitors is like. As ormegolf notes, there are standards, desires and behaviours cropping up which will need to be catered to, and Llandudno can ill-afford to miss out on those.

Jonty, Mike and all.... Thanks for joining in on this, and a bigger debate is welcome.One point I will make is that it is certainly not about age, although it is in one respect. You see grandparents, who used to splash out and treat kids at the seaside are now mainly in their 40's or 50's and have endured a good 8 years of austerity and therefore do not have the cash to spend.

For me it is about the change in UK society as a whole, and if you'll forgive me I'll quote a cross section of what I found on Llandudno Pier today.As a rough approximation, I would say that 50% of the footfall on the pier was schoolchildren, who in the main, are no longer permitted to buy souvenirs.I often wonder what they get (educationally) from a visit to the seaside. As a kid, my school trips were always to museums or suchlike??

Another 20 % was made up of Chinese, Korean tourists or Eastern European visitors, who don't tend to buy anything, therefore as a town I can only assume we must not offer what they want.

Another 20% or so were people wearing Islamic garments, or Charedi Jewish families, again it seems that those communities are unwilling or culturally averse to buying the vast majority of products on offer in Llandudno.

The remaining 10% (yes it was as low as that) was miscellaneous groups, pensioners, couples, locals having a walk etc....

This is by no means a scientific survey, and may well be very different on any given day.... it is merely my observations and I have no intention of offending.This is purely about the changing face of society in general, the economy and what it might indicate for tourism revenues going forward.

As has rightly been pointed out, this demographic will, over time, dwindle thanks to the natural advancement of time and mortality.

Not entirely sure that's true. It assumes that Llandudno's appeal is only to those who holidayed here about 60-70 years ago and ignores the numbers who've stayed here since. As Mike somewhat drily notes the senior citizen group is actually growing, partly because (despite the best efforts of the Government) people are living longer. I suspect it also ignores the specific appeal of Llandudno: we used to be described as 'genteel' which (albeit erroneously) sums up the gently-paced nature of existence we enjoy and still engenders fierce devotion from those who visit.

Llandudno has long attracted an interesting core group: socio-economic groups B - D and the more discerning family. Families who want their children to enjoy walks instead of wildly exciting fairgrounds, views instead of variety shows and I suspect we have it about right. No - it's not a place for the hot dog high life, nor for the peddlars of pap on the prom and I hope it never becomes that. People come here because they enjoy its natural setting. Other places provide the delights of fairground, the smells of doughnut cooking oil and stale grease. We offer something different and I suspect we may be better devoting our energies to improving what we have than constantly casting about for ways to 'attract' more people, or possibly the 'right' people, which is what I suspect this topic is really about. What we ought to be doing is seeking to restore Happy Valley and its once stunningly-managed gardens. We need to actively devote time and energy to renewing the sand on the beach. We need to increase the expenditure on and management of the parks and gardens department.

There's a reason the visitor numbers to Llandudno are on the increase, which they are, and there are also reasons why there's a change in the cultural mix of those visitors. The first is down to the timeless appeal of our location - possibly unique - and the proximity of easy-access attractions. The second is far simpler: the cultural paradigm of UK society is changing. It's taken those changes rather longer to reach us than the cities, but they're here now.

It's not a threat, either; we simply have to up the quality of what we offer, happening already through the new hotels and possibly encourage some more interesting initiatives from the private sector. But the identity Llandudno has is far, far too important to be the object of any abrupt or ill thought-out changes.

I think you'll find I said the old people who make up the core of traditional visitors.There is a new generation of old people now who are used to foreign holidays. They enjoy being able to do nothing and pay less with better weather. It's the families for whom getting on a plane is a hassle that Llandudno has to target

I've nothing much to say on this topic except that my friend Born2Run is incorrect in his opening statement. Sorry about that, Quote "The old people etc etc." Not so, according to every single available statistic from wherever you like. At the shall I say top end of the age range, yes, deaths take their toll. But entry into this elite group (note elite. I'm one of them HaHa) is beating the exits hand over fist. Watch out, if this carries on we will be overrun by them. Now if you were to say that the new intake have different standards, different desires, different behaviour that is a different matter and I wouldn't like to get involved in an argument on that subject

We offer something different and I suspect we may be better devoting our energies to..... improving what we have....... than constantly casting about for ways to 'attract' more people, or possibly the 'right' people, which is what I suspect this topic is really about. What we ought to be doing is seeking to restore Happy Valley and its once stunningly-managed gardens. We need to actively devote time and energy to renewing the sand on the beach. We need to increase the expenditure on and management of the parks and gardens department.

As has rightly been pointed out, this demographic will, over time, dwindle thanks to the natural advancement of time and mortality.

Llandudno has long attracted an interesting core group: socio-economic groups B - D and the more discerning family. Families who want their children to enjoy walks instead of wildly exciting fairgrounds, views instead of variety shows and I suspect we have it about right. No - it's not a place for the hot dog high life, nor for the peddlars of pap on the prom and I hope it never becomes that. People come here because they enjoy its natural setting. Other places provide the delights of fairground, the smells of doughnut cooking oil and stale grease. We offer something different and I suspect we may be better devoting our energies to improving what we have than constantly casting about for ways to 'attract' more people, or possibly the 'right' people, which is what I suspect this topic is really about.

The topic can be about anything the contributor wishes it to be about.... but it wasn't my intention to be about that.I have to pick out some of the comments made and elaborate further about what I mean.'Families who enjoy walks, nice things etc..' There are so few of them these days. The Socio Economic groups B-D are not as well represented as they once were. There have been quite a number of shops opening with more tasteful, higher quality merchandise on display. But that's where it stays, on display... and the shops themselves last one, or at most 2 seasons. I can list several.

However, those who peddle tat, (or shall we say more traditional seaside merchandise), well, there are more of them than ever, and the ones which are well established have been successful for many years.Tat sells, and always will. It's a sad fact, and is a purely supply and demand driven equation.

That goes for food too. As I mentioned earlier, several high quality eateries exist in Llandudno.... but they have been overtaken very quickly by fast food, or low budget outlets.

Society is changing, Llandudno is changing..... the economy is stagnant (despite what any vote-hungry politician might say)

Llandudno could be turning into Rhyl more quickly than anyone ever feared.

With all the variables involved, it's down to coordination, bring all the the interested parties together.....and we are back to a..... "BID"...... :twoface:......strength in numbers....Colwyn Bay are doing it.

'Families who enjoy walks, nice things etc..' There are so few of them these days... Tat sells, and always will.

I don't agree with the second sentence. I suspect there are just as many families who enjoy less technical activities around as there ever were. Many families encourage their children to walk, climb and enjoy themselves outdoors. We just have to make sure there's plenty of decently kept outdoors for them to continue enjoying.

But you're gravitating towards shops again, and that's not what I was discussing. It's really tail and dog theory. I'm arguing that if we make the most of what the area offers in terms of its stunning setting, its wonderfully evocative location then people will come and shops will continue to adapt to the people who arrive.

There's a reason some families are - to use rather ancient jargon - 'well heeled'. They're very cautious about how they spend their monet.

My mum brought me here in the 40s because it meant she did,nt have to spend much on fairground amusements, if we went to Rhyl it had a fairground and it was a case of I want to go on this that and every thing, Me, I wanted to go to Rhyl. My thoughts were" Llandudno is a place for old people" and that stayed with me for the rest of my life. A place were people who were getting on in life could go to spend there time in an environment were they were not going to be harassed by a younger genoration and there time here was going to be a time to be savoured. now at 73 I still haven't changed my mind I'm one of those old people, I feel that i can walk around the town in safety and appreciate what the town has to offer us oldies. Ive Been to 147 club tonight to watch the R.L.match with my grandson and his girl friend (who had to leave @ half time because they are under age) with no fear of walking home on my own and getting harassed by a load of drunken yobs. Castleford won 25-24( against StHelens the best team in the country) in the last seconds of the game, what a game. Lucky yorkshire sods). The town has been making a living for all those years, there have been many changes but life goes on and all that take part in the forum may have thoughts on how to improve things here but i would like to bet in another 60years from now it will still be a place for the oldies and Goldie's to spend there twilight hours. Focus on their future and you will be on a winner

Interesting report about Margate's restoration as a seaside resort on BBC 1 this morning. Ignoring that it's down South (the only reason it ended up on the BBC 1 national news...) the point was made during the report that seaside towns across the UK are enjoying a resurgence of interest and a rise in visitor numbers.

You only have to look at the number of cafes in Llandudno to see that something has changed. I thought a couple of years ago that there were too many for all to survive. In fact more have opened and most seem to be doing well. I think there are a couple of drivers. People buy a lot online now, so we don't need so many shops. Llandudno is still a destination for people who live relatively local (Conwy valley etc.), and having a nice coffee and a piece of cake is now part of their routine trip to town (less shopping to do). Also, the recession has changed spending habits so that they are buying less stuff and taking less holidays, but are compensating by day trips with the cafe being a treat.

Another change is the style of hotel. According to the paint shop, there is a lot of upgrading going on, with a move to the boutique style. This is also illustrated by the Llandudno Bay hotel, which opens in a couple of weeks, and appears to be a very significant change in style from its past.

I do think the type of accommodation available in and around Llandudno is a limiting factor, particularly for families. If you look at Abersoch, Rhosneigr etc. they are very busy with families all summer, yet there is not an amusement arcade or laser quest in sight. Most of them are staying in holiday houses (owned and rented) and caravans (static and touring); which I don't think are so abundant around here. These are the families that like the types of things that LLandudno have to offer, they spend plenty of money in cafes and restaurants and tend to return year after year.

I was a bit surprised about the query of the educational benefit of a school visit to Llandudno. The natural environment that is so visible and accessible is an amazing resource to support learning. I am sure kids get far more from visiting LLandudno than any museum.

For anyone who doesn't think that Llandudno is changing, here are some pictures taken last night.

In past years, even in April, all the pubs, bars and restaurants were busy in Upper Mostyn Street.By mid June it was nigh-on impossible to get a seat. I'm only talking about 2 years ago.At 8pm last night it looked like this, and I was genuinely shocked.Why would any bar/restaurant need to offer a desperate '25% off EVERYTHING' in so called high season?

As far as the Pier is concerned, in June it was always difficult to close a shop before 7pm, because there were still potential customers around. Yesterday, I was the only one open after 4pm!! As it turns out, they were were wise to pack up and go, because I didn't take a penny in the next 2 hours.I returned at 8pm to take the picture below, to show just how utterly deserted it was, even on a relatively pleasant night.

Why would any bar/restaurant need to offer a desperate '25% off EVERYTHING' in so called high season?

It might be worth considering the weather this year. It's not unseasonal - by 1960 standards - but it's quite a change from the past 10 years or so. And if the bars and pubs are less busy, that isn't necessarily a bad thing for a family resort. And the weather could easily explain why the pier business is slower.

Llandudno is busier with day visitors this year than the past few. But it's erratic. However, those who know are starting to plough cash into the hotels, which is a pretty sure indicator that things are improving, not declining.

ian I walk the prom every day believe me this year so far if it wasn't,t for the school trips comming here it would be near deserted , the trippers so far this year have paid coach,train or petrol fare they are bringing own food and drink so what I see not spending maybe a stick of rock or an ice cream ,( eat it quick before the seagulls get it ).

Norm is right, and Ian is right (to a degree)What I mean is, Llandudno is pretty much like a ghost town this year... and those who are coming are spending very little indeed.

But, the weather is a factor certainly.This is the longest I can ever remember without a proper warm spell.2 years ago there was still snow on Tal y Fan mountain in early June, and town was very quiet. But then the weather broke and it was a busy town from then on.This year however, the cold weather has lasted much longer, and (according to Derek last night) there is no end in sight.

As I type this, all the other shops on the Pier have given up and gone home, some before 3pm!The question I always used to get bombarded with was...'Scuse me, why are these shops all shut', even at 7pm.I don't hear it now.... there is no one here to ask it!

Llandudno is busier with day visitors this year than the past few. But it's erratic. However, those who know are starting to plough cash into the hotels, which is a pretty sure indicator that things are improving, not declining.

Thinking about what you said above, and Festers lack of customers I checked out Tripadvisor Llandudno's top Hotels, comments are all very positive, however it stood out the number of nights booked, mostly 2 or 3 nights.We may be heading for long weekend breaks instead of the 1 or 2 week stay of old.

Or is this on top of the normal long stay.......could the weekend break be all year round......day visitor numbers up.......The Extravaganza....Air show....Cycle race....Cambrian GB Rally.....and of course Orme Golf :) bring large numbers into the town, I understand these events might not benefit all businesses on the day, but they could come back later, do we need more....

What I mean is, Llandudno is pretty much like a ghost town this year... and those who are coming are spending very little indeed

Sorry, Fester. I believe you're wrong about the first part and almost wrong about the second. The town is no quieter and no busier on average from what we're seeing (there are quiet days and busy days) and our comparisons go back more than forty years, and as for spending maybe they're simply not spending at your place. Or maybe not at the places you frequent.

The weather is arguably the factor, I think. On the few warm days we've experienced the numbers we've seen have been higher even than mid-season and certainly better than a year ago. But poor forecasts deter impulse tourists, so if the weather ain't slated to be good, they stay at home and do the gardening.

To get the full picture you'd have to have the figures from all the hotels, shops and eateries and not simply odd and necessarily subjective opinions from individuals, but I know that visitor numbers are definitely up overall and, while they may not be spending on the pier they seem to be elsewhere. But we're drifting off topic.

The original post was about the changing tourist trade in Llandudno and the decline in those willing to spend. Interestingly, I seem to have heard that refrain for the past 30 years and it's been almost the same every year. Certainly Fester's been grumbling that things have never been so bad ever since he started on the pier :-))) ;D

The tourist trade is always going to undergo shifts, often on a daily basis, and the demographics are always going to reveal moves but the core business of Llandudno - its appeal to those who enjoy great scenery, the seaside, a pleasantly paced way of life - that's not changed in any way that I can see, and the conference business is still growing healthily. Friends of ours who are accountants confirm that takings in the town since September are generally up. We're also a lot better off in terms of shops that are still open, and that has little to do with Llandudno itself. I seriously doubt the hard-headed bean counters of the likes of the big coffee chains and eateries that have been opening, or the chains willing to spend a fortune upgrading once-derelict hotels would be investing in the town if they believed what some on here are saying.

Fortunately, the figures reveal (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tourism-llandudno-tenby-still-wales-7716116)that Llandudno still gets the lion's share of a growing market in tourist terms and continues to grow so while some may feel the 'town is a ghost town' maybe that's because they're not in the right spirit... WWW

We have to accept that we're hostages to random meteorological changes but I suspect all the Pythonesque pessimism some on here are exhibiting can be compared to discussions about the weather ("Always had three feet of snow at Christmas when we were kids") and discussions about young people who, it seems, are now rabble beyond control and unlike the model children of yesteryear who never, ever questioned the teacher and were terrified of bobbies.

One final thought: if the punters aren't spending could that be more to do with what is being sold then the punters themselves?

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We may be heading for long weekend breaks instead of the 1 or 2 week stay of old

Very, very few folk now stay for more than 4 days, Steve, and it's been that way for a very long time. A big part of the off-season trade comes from some ingenious ideas the hotels provide to maintain numbers. I think the week-long stays probably ended in the mid-'60s, when air travel became cheaper and more popular, but there's a definite shift away from flying (we travel mostly by train or car) simply because the overall nature of the experience is so gruesome.

SteveH, thanks for the mention (alongside extravaganza, air show, rallies etc). I appreciate the mention even though it obviously has your toung in your cheek. How on earth do you spell toung? Going to have to forget spell checkers and dust down my dictionary. However, Steve, you give me praise for helping to bring in large numbers of visitors to the town. I wish. Golf is not a large number pastime, especially in a squashed up 9 hole pitch and putt. But, I will take a bow and say it DOES attract visitors to the town. But only in very very small numbers, but a fair percentage of the golfers who do arrive have come a good distance. Porthmadoc area is common, over the border in England, Holyhead --- I could go on.And the one thing that brings them? The internet in all its forms. Especially trip adviser. They have done a search of a few key words and they have liked what they have seen. And invariably its not just the golf. Its golf, shops, a meal all on the one day.

I'll reply to Ian, and his condescending (and mildly offensive) post... and then I'll leave this thread alone.There really is no point in raising any issues on this Forum, because Ian, like a playground bully, feels the need to defeat and crush any opinion.It was initially supposed to be about the change in Socio-economic and cultural groups coming to Llandudno, and how they differ in their ways to the traditional British seaside visitor of years gone by.I went to GREAT PAINS to conclude in my first post that it is our challenge to offer them what they want to buy.Strangely, Ian came to that same conclusion in his last post.... but thought it was some hilarious revelation, and a direct dig at me! Ian, I really could reciprocate.... but I won't descend to that level.

Now, it is crucial that I point out that I am not moaning parochially about a lack of business for me. I can state that despite poor weather, TERRIBLE footfall (despite what Ian says) my cumulative takings in 2015 are exactly in line with 2014, which was my RECORD year, and business has actually increased year on year. You will note, no INCREASE this year.I have been lucky, I have loyal regulars, a viable website.... and even luckier that those previous customers who no longer wish to come to Llandudno (for a variety of reasons), they will phone me to order things, or (bless them) write to me and pop a cheque in the post.I am looking to retire at the end of the 2015 season, and what I will miss most of all is those lovely regular customers who have kept me company and comfortable for the past 6 years.So, what I have been writing about is what I SEE and HEAR around me, not about me personally. The type of outlets opening, compared to those who are closing down. The type of people visiting... and more importantly the type of people NO LONGER visiting.I do keep detailed records of my own sales within ranges, and the more tasteful items (essential oils etc), get less attention each year.... and the more novelty items (tat??), is demanded in increasing amounts. I have category graphs of this stuff, the trend in undeniable.But that's not very scientific... so I consider why so many other shops (of all kinds) are closing so early in the day, and many closing down for good. It's because no one is wanting to buy anything.I for one, would stay open past midnight if people were still giving me money!The pier staff used to nickname me 'Arkwright' as in Open All Hours.... but now there is really no reason to be there.

So, perhaps I am only referring to the areas that I know well. I do indeed spend the vast majority of my time on the Pier, or in Upper Mostyn Street, where most of the vibrant trade USED to be. They are very, very quiet this year.... frighteningly so at times. Please don't forget the photographic evidence I posted... on a warmish evening in June.Maybe it's all moved somewhere else?? Are you out in Llandudno in the evenings Ian? Are any Forum members?

Ian, I have admitted that I may be referring to the Pier, and Upper Mostyn St only... I frequent them yes, you don't... so please do not be so dismissive of my comments on those areas that I know well.It may well be due entirely to the weather... I don't know, but neither do you... so again, I will thank you for allowing others to actually make an assertion without it being derided.

Finally, I spoke to Oakleaf Travel in Bradford today. They used to send 14 coaches per year for day trips to Llandudno.This year they planned to send 4, but only 2 were sufficiently subscribed.... one was cancelled.... one is yet to come.The various reasons given for customers no longer booking for Llandudno included a biggie in my opinion.'Our customers feel that being dropped off so far from the main attractions means it is pointless coming at all'

We have strayed way off the original remit of this thread, but then again it was forced that way by certain comments which needed addressing. I see no reason why a topic can't be broadened out and diverted from if contributors so wish.I fear that this might not be the right medium to discuss some of the more pressing issues that are driving the 'Changing Face of Llandudno'

Some of the overlapping facets as I see them touch upon migration, immigration, the economy, political correctness, education standards, cultural preferences and more. I don't think this Forum has the appetite to have a reasoned and sensible debate about many of those.

The main reason for the changing face of Llandudno has to go down to CCBC,THEIR INVESTMENT HAS ALL BEEN NEXT DOOR,i have a picture of my nephew who is nearly 4 standing next to the jetty on sand,now its got a small covering of rocks which could easily moved and put back with the rest of the rocks,but no concern.Bogisland grass has not been cut for weeks,no concern,pier pavillion,no concern,you see the CCBC see town packed on certain weekends and think we are doing ok,i for one who has lived here for 53 years has noticed how quiet things are this month and the weather ain;t to bad,i think the hoteliers should know the answers to how quiet it is.

The main reason for the changing face of Llandudno has to go down to CCBC,THEIR INVESTMENT HAS ALL BEEN NEXT DOOR,i have a picture of my nephew who is nearly 4 standing next to the jetty on sand,now its got a small covering of rocks which could easily moved and put back with the rest of the rocks,but no concern.Bogisland grass has not been cut for weeks,no concern,pier pavillion,no concern,you see the CCBC see town packed on certain weekends and think we are doing ok,i for one who has lived here for 53 years has noticed how quiet things are this month and the weather ain;t to bad,i think the hoteliers should know the answers to how quiet it is.

I have to agree with wrex, Llandudno is looking very sad. CBCC have really let LLandudno down, we need new blood on the council.The currant councillors just don't seem to stand up for the town.

I'll reply to Ian, and his condescending (and mildly offensive) post... and then I'll leave this thread alone.There really is no point in raising any issues on this Forum, because Ian, like a playground bully, feels the need to defeat and crush any opinion.

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I will thank you for allowing others to actually make an assertion without it being derided.

Do you understand Irony, Fester? The key component of any debate within this forum is the need to remain courteous. Please don't confuse assertion with derision.

But I'm genuinely sorry you feel like that, because I always thought the idea of any controversial topic was to encourage debate. And you completely missed the tone of the first sentence which was simply written as a (subtle) parody of your comment: "Norm is right, and Ian is right (to a degree)"

But more importantly you misinterpreted the specific comment to which you took exception "Strangely, Ian came to that same conclusion in his last post.... but thought it was some hilarious revelation, and a direct dig at me! Ian, I really could reciprocate.... but I won't descend to that level." I was aware I was reflecting the tone of your initial post, and I did it deliberately. It was a genuine nod to your first assertions, but you've misread it as ridicule.

But if I can take your response item by item:

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You will note, no INCREASE this year.

But in a period of negative or zero inflation, isn't that what you would expect?

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I do keep detailed records of my own sales within ranges, and the more tasteful items (essential oils etc), get less attention each year.... and the more novelty items (tat??), is demanded in increasing amounts. I have category graphs of this stuff, the trend in undeniable.But that's not very scientific

Actually, it is, and it's exactly the sort of information I was suggesting we lacked. We can all argue about how the town is deserted, or heaving, or how no one's spending any money but without accurate data we might as well work for the DFM.

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Some of the overlapping facets as I see them touch upon migration, immigration, the economy, political correctness, education standards, cultural preferences and more. I don't think this Forum has the appetite to have a reasoned and sensible debate about many of those.

I would say that I for one would welcome a reasoned debate on these issues but they are areas which many feel very strongly about and it would be essential to debate them within a strictly reasoned framework. But they're valid issues; we simply have to take care about how we debate them. I'm sure B2R would welcome such a debate, as might others.

Interestingly, your comment about the coach drop-off point was one you made sometime ago; it was your first point in a topic you started about Obstacles to tourism and it remains both valid and unaddressed. On the subject of Upper Mostyn Street you may well be correct. But towns change and the closure of a single and possibly crucial focal point can make a significant difference. We've lost night clubs in the town which used to bring in large numbers of people and - in some respects - that's returned the town to what it used to be. There was a strong body of opposition to the night spots (although I was never sure why) but I do know our two sons used to frequent them and it was common to visit them all in a single night, a practice presumably emulated by their peers, so that would certainly provide an impression of a very busy town. The loss of those places will mean youngsters travelling further afield, to Llandudno's detriment, but towns and streets change.

I know, however, that not that long ago the Police were receiving many complaints about Upper Mostyn Street in terms of noise and public nuisance so their response might well be another reason why things have changed.

You have to witness these things for yourself, and only Wrex (that I know of) spends significant time in the evenings in the areas that I am referring to.

For example, Night Clubs closing down? Well yes one did.... but that simply allowed Club 147, Cooneys and Fountains Bar to open much later than ever, in a conservation area I might add.!! :o :oTake a look at the rubbish, the broken glass and often the pools of blood on the pavements of Upper Mostyn St, early on Sunday morning.... it will tell you much more than any Tourist Board article.You also have Town House and Cross Keys attracting the residue from the closed nightclub... many of which were (and are) barred from more salubrious establishments. I don't recommend that you take the Mrs out for a genteel evening in either of those places.

To address Ian's point about my own expectations for 2015. I did expect an increase, because I always get one... new customers turn into regulars, and the effect has always snowballed. This year however, there ARE no new people.The footfall is incredibly low, and you really have to se it to believe it.I think it will improve when the weather improves.... but much has already been lost.Plus, when it does improve, I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.The change is rapid, and I honestly believe that many on here are simply not seeing it. Either because of where they go, or how often they leave the house!

Finally, to Steve H, I understand the point about more hotels, but I would ask you to take a quick look at commercial property on Rightmove. Then, please tell me are there any Llandudno hotels that are NOT up for sale??I would argue that the 'smart' people as you call them, are actually trying to cash their chips in!!

I admit to being confused. If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, then you're arguing on the one hand that Upper Mostyn Street is now bereft of the trade it once enjoyed:

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I do indeed spend the vast majority of my time ... in Upper Mostyn Street, where most of the vibrant trade USED to be. They are very, very quiet this year.... frighteningly so at times. Maybe it's all moved somewhere else??

and on the other that it's a positively thronging hotbed of violence, litterers and ne'er do wells:

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Take a look at the rubbish, the broken glass and often the pools of blood on the pavements of Upper Mostyn St, early on Sunday morning.... also ...the Town House and Cross Keys attracting the residue from the closed nightclub... many of which were (and are) barred from more salubrious establishments.

But on to your other point, which I continue to believe is at the root of this entire topic:

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I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.The change is rapid, and I honestly believe that many on here are simply not seeing it. Either because of where they go, or how often they leave the house!

I suspect you're going to have to be far more specific.

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Finally, to Steve H, I understand the point about more hotels, but I would ask you to take a quick look at commercial property on Rightmove. Then, please tell me are there any Llandudno hotels that are NOT up for sale??

Yes; almost all. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do, F, but if you examine the site you mention there are a mere five of the properties that be seriously considered as 'Hotels' up for sale with only 16 other properties, most of which are B and Bs. In the interest of full disclosure I restricted the search to hotels within one mile of Llandudno, but many more appear if you increase the distance to include areas that can not be considered to be Llandudno.

Hi Fester, had a look on Llandudno Hotels on Rightmove, I have no experience in this field, but my thoughts are.......

Allowing that there will always be Hotels for sale at any given time, owners wanting to retire etc. the number is difficult to judge, I did notice quite a few smaller Guest houses?

As I mentioned before there seems to be an increase in upgrading hotels in llandudno, up to award winning standard, these hotels appear to be very successful, so it stands to reason that if others are not prepared or are unable to upgrade then they will have to sell.

There seem to be far more 'day trippers' especially at weekends, which I believe I have said before, boils down to the accessibility for people with today's roads and modern vehicles. Thus the footfall in and out of shops during the week has fallen. People on holiday always used to take home 'presents' for the rest of the family, but it seems to be a dying thing.

Steve H mentions smaller guest houses being on the market. Quite a few of these can be people who cannot finance the very strict rules and regulations with regard to fire and public safety. Also the smaller places are not now viable to repay a commercial mortgage.............but the council will not allow these places to become private dwellings especially if they are in the 'Holiday Accommodation Zone'.

As far as the Pier is concerned, in June it was always difficult to close a shop before 7pm, because there were still potential customers around. Yesterday, I was the only one open after 4pm!! As it turns out, they were were wise to pack up and go, because I didn't take a penny in the next 2 hours.

I disagree.... as a kid i usedto go to LL at the beg of july and yes everywhere on the pier was open til at least 7, often 8. And then i switched to August from about 1994 and most were still open til at least 6pm. Since 2000 though i've been in LL the first 2 weeks of July every year, and even 15 years ago the pier shops would be shutting by 4pm! Not always admittedly, but enough. I thought it was just cos it was damn cold in July 2000, but it seemed to stick that way (the pier, not just the weather!). The arcade at the end would be locking up by 5.30pm, and most shops have given up long before then. Just the footie shop, the welsh shop opposite (no longer there), and the last few years you, seem to last longer, but as the frequent tourist who has been going since age 3 that you seem to be on about as visitors in this thread, i thought i'd point out how a tourist sees the pier amenities- and that is usually shut in July after 4pm. Even in 2013 when we had a heatwave - the pier shops / cafe /arcade were shutting well before 6 :(

What a lot of writing on this thread, Far too much 4 me to comment. Apart from Festers opening words "I am thinking to retire at the end of 2015." Thats shocked me. Perhaps I should start to think about it in a few years time.

I like you Mike were shocked at festers retirement plans , one of the reasons i go down to the pier is to see his smiling face,(or if I'm lucky Mrs Fs.) but getting back to the thread keep the debate going girls and boys it,s one of the best the forum has had for ages, all are making vallid points ,if only the powers that be are taking note of all your valid comments then something may get done. Maybe I am still living in hope (not the one near Wrexham)

Britain has been affectionately known as a nation of shop keepers and shoppers but is this traditional image changing? Have we all gone on line or perhaps moderated our expenditure in line with Government rhetoric or pleas to save? Indeed a walk around some towns and cities might suggest Britons are falling out of favour with shopping, with boarded up shops and low footfall. Is this true? Despite dire predictions we have actually been involved with clients expanding their retail foot print through out the UK albeit in many cases, as one aspect only of their "multi channel" offer.

In some cases and areas of the United Kingdom there is clearly an oversupply of retail space given a lot of new shopping developments have added huge amounts of new space to an already well provided market. In other areas, rather than a death of the retail shop, I think we are seeing a change in the dynamics of the retail shopping experience to a more leisure based focus which is driven increasingly by location. This not perhaps something new but rather an acceleration of trends from the 20th century.

Going forward there is increasing evidence that retail centres, be it shopping centres or high streets, which are linked to leisure and tourism, will do better than those which are not. We are seeing this with increased retail space being let to food and leisure providers in major centres and the rise of large multi location retail restaurant chains.

The other trend, which is noticeable, is the multi channel approach, that is combining online sales with large branded stores and click and collect, which has altered the dynamic of what "national coverage" might look like. Traditionally to get national coverage one may have needed more than 350 stores but these days can one do it with say 125 stores in key locations. We are also I think seeing, within this change, a change in the nature of the shops as the internet picks up sales of products which it is not fun to shop for.

I think therefore going forward we are going to see our retailing driven by experience and more part of an overall leisure delivery. Whilst we are seeing a change in lease terms, in shorter leases and break options and other changes, the cost of fitting out retail shops actually means that most retail decisions are often on a longer term basis than the short lease and, as such, getting the location correct in this new dynamic will remain key.

In short we are living through a shift in retail provision which I suspect has quite a way to go and will see more changes of where and how we shop.http://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/changing-face-retailing-uk (http://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/changing-face-retailing-uk)

This is a long read only for those interested in retail sales.http://www.experian.co.uk/assets/business-strategies/white-papers/RWC-whitepaper2.pdf (http://www.experian.co.uk/assets/business-strategies/white-papers/RWC-whitepaper2.pdf)

With the greatest respect to some of the people posting here (know that's always a very guarded preamble!) but much of what's been said has largely been anecdotal. And the general thrust is that things are going more downmarket; people are spending less; the stuff they're buying is the tattier end of the market etc.

But I might counter - again, purely through anecdotal experience - that a number of more middle-class, upmarket establishments have cropped up in the town in the past few years. There's a v. nice chocolatiers on Madoc Street, shops like Viyella and Cotton Traders aren't exactly cheap (though people will shop at them), Characters Tea Rooms up top of town is a pleasant "vintage" tea rooms which will cater to people who fancy something like a silver service rather than a bog-standard cuppa but don't fancy spending ridiculous amounts in a hotel. And let's not forget Caffe Nero and Starbucks have both come to the town in recent years - both popular but neither are exactly cheap.

The problem with me citing this as hard-and-fast evidence that Llandudno is going upmarket is that it stands in complete contrast to the experiences of other people who have seen the exact opposite - thus, the whole thing becomes a "he-said-she-said" trade of anecdotes, which doesn't advance the debate any further.

In order for us to have any kind of reasonable debate about this, we need some decent data, not just the personal experiences of us few as people who either live in the town or visit on a regular basis. I've tried to have a search through stuff collected by Conwy and the Tourism Information Service, Visit Wales etc but it's difficult to find anything useful. People's individual experiences, for all their worth, can often be limited and coloured by confirmation bias and the myriad variations of time, circumstance and condition.

Is there anyone who might know where that sort of information is available? SOMEONE must be monitoring these trends - I don't doubt there's some body or other out there paid to do it.

It's not just the changing face of Llandudno, national figures are all saying the same, most of us are spending less today than we where 10 years ago (general recession) and our needs have changed, so business has to change too.

In order for us to have any kind of reasonable debate about this, we need some decent data, not just the personal experiences of us few as people who either live in the town or visit on a regular basis.

As you might imagine, I agree with you completely. But I suspect the key to the debate lies in this phrase of Fester's:

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I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.

In order for us to have any kind of reasonable debate about this, we need some decent data, not just the personal experiences of us few as people who either live in the town or visit on a regular basis.

As you might imagine, I agree with you completely. But I suspect the key to the debate lies in this phrase of Fester's:

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I once again point out that it is a different TYPE of visitor that we are seeing these days.

Found the comments on Tripadvisor ....pier.... interestinghttp://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g190724-d1809504-Reviews-Llandudno_Pier-Llandudno_Conwy_County_North_Wales_Wales.html (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g190724-d1809504-Reviews-Llandudno_Pier-Llandudno_Conwy_County_North_Wales_Wales.html)

The reason the pressies have been dropped is the fact that the place is much more accessible in this day and age and more and more people get to visit due to the better road and transport conditions. Getting home in the old days along the coast road could take up to 4 or 5 hours in days gone bye, and as result folk made a visit maybe once every few years , so to show they had been they would take a present from llandudno. not so today they are here and back in half the time and so make more visits if they like the place. we see much more of Britain in this day and age and more people than ever are visiting different places.

Well, I don't have access to a raft of figures and data, as you may expect.Nor would I be that interested in reading them, anyone with a pair of eyes 8) can see, as Fester correctly said, that upper Mostyn Street is a ghost street in the evenings between Monday and Friday.

Why? I'll tell you why. Pub/Club goers in the main now only go out on Saturday nights. About 10/15 years ago the price between what the pubs in Llandudno charge for a drink and what supermarkets charge was not vastly different. It was about £5 for a six pack and about £2 a pint. Nowadays it's still around a fiver for a six pack in supermarkets but in the pubs it's around £3.80 - £4.50 a pint. We also had a smoking ban. We also had a reason to go out Wednesday/Thursday/Friday nights - Wednesdays Broadway Boulevard ran a successful night aimed at the over 30s - Thursdays was a successful gay friendly night at the Wash, and Fridays at both the Wash and Broadway was a night geared towards hard dance music. All of these brought people out on those nights, you would notice the other pubs in town being busy from people going there for a warm up first.

Nowadays the 'warm ups' are done at home on cheap supermarket beer, and the night people go out on is Saturday (because nobody goes out on the other nights because it is 'dead')

That is why as referenced in Fester's photo, the street is empty. Where as ten years back it would have been heaving.

Pub/Club goers in the main now only go out on Saturday nights. About 10/15 years ago the price between what the pubs in Llandudno charge for a drink and what supermarkets charge was not vastly different. It was about £5 for a six pack and about £2 a pint. Nowadays it's still around a fiver for a six pack in supermarkets but in the pubs it's around £3.80 - £4.50 a pint. We also had a smoking ban.

The UK government and Police services have both been urging increases in the cost of alcohol and actively increasing taxes to raise that cost to achieve precisely the effect you're illustrating. And the smoking ban can only be considered a good thing by most.

"Four decades ago, UK residents made 6.7 million holiday trips abroad, but by 2008 that figure was 45.5 million"

"We have also moved away from factory work. In 1978, the manufacturing sector accounted for nearly three in 10 (28.5 per cent) jobs around the UK, but this had fallen by 2009 to one in 10 (10 per cent), the lowest proportion since records began"

"spending a fifth of the household income on food (whereas these days, your biggest expenditure will be on energy bills, probably for all those gadgets you own)"“trades fortnight” two weeks in the summer when tradesmen take their holidays.Although a strong tradition during the 19th and 20th centuries, the observance of the holiday has almost disappeared in recent times due to the decline of the manufacturing industries in the United Kingdom and the standardisation of school holidays across England.

"In recent years, Great Yarmouth has seen huge regeneration projects to breathe new life back into a town that never stopped being a popular destination but which needed modernisation and refurbishment. With perfect timing, the British seaside holiday has recently come back into vogue."

"passion and affection the opulence and splendour of Victorian and Edwardian piers, winter gardensThus, 'Seaside Environments' covers interesting ground, discussing attempts to regulate resorts, battles with the sea through expensive sea defences, endeavours to manage traditional seaside economies and lifestyles, Walton places particular emphasis on the 'degradation of the built environment' with architecture losing its distinctiveness, emblems of seaside pleasures demolished or allowed to decay," MORE BELOW

Another long read but very interesting....................................The British Seaside: Holidays and Resorts in the Twentieth Century John K. WaltonManchester, Manchester University Press, 2000, ISBN: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/233 (http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/233)

Pub/Club goers in the main now only go out on Saturday nights. About 10/15 years ago the price between what the pubs in Llandudno charge for a drink and what supermarkets charge was not vastly different. It was about £5 for a six pack and about £2 a pint. Nowadays it's still around a fiver for a six pack in supermarkets but in the pubs it's around £3.80 - £4.50 a pint. We also had a smoking ban.

The UK government and Police services have both been urging increases in the cost of alcohol and actively increasing taxes to raise that cost to achieve precisely the effect you're illustrating. And the smoking ban can only be considered a good thing by most.

I never said it wasn't a good thing, or went into any reasoning for the cost as it's irrelevant.I was simply saying that is the reason Llandudno pub trade is lower than it has ever been and certainly much lower than 10/15 years ago. You make an interesting point though, I would argue that the government and police tactics have not worked or done any good in the slightest. People are still drinking just as much as they were and causing just as much trouble, and getting just as ill, but they are giving the money from their debauchery to Walmart and not their local landlord. That's all that has changed.

I'll reply to Ian, and his condescending (and mildly offensive) post... and then I'll leave this thread alone.There really is no point in raising any issues on this Forum, because Ian, like a playground bully,

That's interesting. Last week in July and first in August - what used to be the 'factory fortnight' of old - still see a pretty significant number of visitors, partly, I suspect, because it's only those first two weeks that are still completely free of anything education-related. By the second / third weeks of August GCSE and A level results are being released and the chase for Uni or FE college places begins in earnest. That ties up parents of children aged 15/16 and 17+.

Sheffield Hallam University Published the results of a very large statistical research project called "THE SEASIDE TOURIST INDUSTRY IN ENGLAND AND WALES". It's another lengthy read but the conclusions are interesting and, more importantly, based on published data.

"The report concludes that seaside tourism in England and Wales is by any standards a large industry. In terms of employment it is comparable to the telecommunications sector and larger than the motor industry, aerospace, pharmaceuticals or steel.

The report’s findings also explode important myths about the industry. Far from being in terminal decline as a result of the rise of foreign holidays, a substantial British seaside tourist industry remains alive and well and seems even to have been growing over the last decade. For the future, the industry has a potentially important contribution to make not only to seaside towns but also to the British economy as a whole."

SHU has also published a new report in the last few months, updating that previous report. Again, the findings are interesting, but it's a lengthy read to find the detail. The conclusions, however, remain encouraging:

"But the real world is more complex. Many people may be deeply reluctant to spend less on holidays or travel. Capital purchases such as new cars or furniture may be deferred instead. Additionally, the impact of austerity has not fallen evenly on all groups. Households with mortgages have actually benefited substantially from low interest rates, and pensions have been protected by inflation up-rating. Young adults (hit hard by unemployment) and benefit claimants (including the working poor) have arguably been the two groups facing the biggest squeeze on their incomes.Furthermore, the new age of austerity may have actually made British seaside resorts a more attractive destination. Foreign holidays have usually been seen as a prime competitor to the British seaside, so lower incomes may mean that households still go on holiday but opt for UK destinations instead. Added to this, since 2008 the shift in the exchange rate between sterling and the euro has made a number of foreign destinations – notably Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and Greece – substantially more expensive."

The report looks at the combined population of Llandudno/Colwyn/Conwy and puts it at 68,900. Taking a lot into account their key finding is that employment in seaside tourism is estimated to be slightly higher now than before the 2008 recession and the onset of the age of austerity (started in 2008).

"That the seaside tourist industry in England and Wales appears to have weathered the post- 2008 economic downturn relatively well indicates that the downward pressures on the seaside tourist business (such as lower incomes) have in practice been more than offset by other factors (such as the cost of holidays in the eurozone). The estimates provide evidence that there is probably some substance in the much-discussed rise of ‘staycations’

These new figures, taken alongside the employment growth identified in the 2010 report, provide powerful evidence that the British seaside tourist industry is alive and well. Reports of its death, or at least its terminal decline, seem well wide of the mark."

They do say that the austerity period slowed the growth of the seaside industry but nothing more; it continues to thrive and grow, albeit slowly. But perhaps the most important finding for the three town area (based on all the data they analysed) is summed up in a sentence deep in the report:

"The Llandudno / Colwyn Bay / Conwy area in North Wales, also with 5,000 jobs, demonstrates that it remains an important magnet for visitors."

Possibly one of the most interesting observations in the report attempted to explain why Brighton has seen a significant increase, while Blackpool has lost out to the same extent. The reasons for these changes are discussed and considered in depth, but one observation which might be of particular interest to those bemoaning the closures of pubs and clubs was that the two resorts attract different types of visitor. Brighton's core business has now moved up-market to fashionable eateries, boating, sailing, etc while Blackpool still targets the young adults, party goers and thrill-seekers, the age and employment group who've taken a particular hit during the past six years in both income and benefit terms.

Similarly, the report identified other areas in the North West that had lost ground, albeit to a lesser degree, which included New Brighton, Rhyl and Prestatyn.

Indeed. We have an enormous amount of tourist pulling power: beaches, castles, hills, scenery, shops and hotels - all within easy reach, but we could so much better, as Wrex is constantly saying. The visitors we're getting enjoy delightfully tended gardens and the combination of those gardens with the views from Happy Valley and the unrealised potential of live entertainment could be a game changer for comparatively little investment. The roundabouts in the town are delightful, but with just a bit more time and patience that same appearance could be extended to the Orme - arguably Llandudno's greatest asset.

Llandudno has a lot of nice restaurants which are always busy,i just called into La Taverna to book a table next week and the place is packed,the Snooze bar is doing very well so there is a need for upmarket pubs but until we get a bit more investment people will stay in their hotels like the Empire,St Georges etc,i will be honest the only pubs i go in regular are THE Snowdon,The Gresh,Cottage Loaf,The Links and now the Snooze bar which leaves a lot of places missing out on my pound coins.

I've been off the Forum for a couple of days.... so this thread took a lot of catching up on.A lot of valid points raised, and some interesting external data presented.

A little late perhaps, but I wanted to clarify Ian's apparent confusion about why I said Upper Mostyn St was deserted.... but then I mentioned about the debris etc on Sunday mornings.Actually, Born to Run summarised it perfectly.You will see the bars closing early on weeknights, and bringing chair and tables in at 10pm or even earlier, because there is no one around.On weekends, as B2R correctly says, the young folk don't leave their homes until 11pm, and they are already 'fully loaded' with alcohol from Asda/Sainsbury's that is in their price range.So, if you wander up Upper Mostyn St at 10pm on a Saturday night you will see loads of door security staff, hardly anyone else... and you would be puzzled as to why they are needed.

Fast forward 2 hours, and the street is thronging, noisy and you can hardly move.It stays like that until about 3am, when Zak's Kebabs and the Taxi ranks really start to make serious money.The amount of noise, hassle and rubbish all around has to be witnessed to be believed.

I noted with interest the report outlining the differences between Brighton's increase in popularity and Blackpool's decrease.It pointed out the different TYPE of visitor being attracted to those resorts.As Ian rightly points out, that is indeed the point I originally raised about Llandudno, some 66 posts ago!

I also gave a very unscientific breakdown of the percentages of those 'types' .... but that didn't draw out any debate for some reason.

Out of interest but mainly because I was waiting for my significant other to finish shopping I sat outside St John's church and counted passers by. Here's what I observed:

Between 0935 and 0955:

282 people passed me of whom

246 were aged 50 or above187 were Men65 were Women282 had ethnic origin: white0 had any other ethnic origin0 wore religious garb (habibs, etc)21 were disabled or using mobility scooters70+ were on holiday (very rough estimate based on several factors including pace of walk, whether in couples or alone, newness of footwear and summer clothes)17 walked on their own.1 pigeon settled next to me and seemed sleepy.

Some more excellent posts in this thread, this is what the Forum is all about. $good$

It's interesting how different people's perspectives can vary so widely, but it's also very easy to understand how this can be. Some days, the pier can be deserted whilst the town is crammed with people. Try booking a table at a popular restaurant like La Taverna or Carlos and you will really struggle. The ever increasing number of cafes around Llandudno all seem to be thriving. Expensive eateries like Osbourne House and the Seahorse are always busy. Yet, some retailers report terrible trade. The summer season seems to shrink a little every year. But the busy days are busier than ever before. It's all very confusing!

Things are changing, and will continue to do so. Are they changing for the better or worse? Depends upon your perspective. But I would say that Llandudno needs to work harder to pull in the visitors, especially those with a few pounds to spend. Visitors these days have a great deal of choice about where they visit, and everything about Llandudno needs to be first rate in order to get chosen as their destination. SteveH mentions a Business Improvement District - its an excellent idea. I've mentioned a Town Manager in the past - a motivated person that could pull together the public and private sectors could make a massive difference.

Llandudno has a lot of nice restaurants which are always busy,i just called into La Taverna to book a table next week and the place is packed,the Snooze bar is doing very well so there is a need for upmarket pubs but until we get a bit more investment people will stay in their hotels like the Empire,St Georges etc,i will be honest the only pubs i go in regular are THE Snowdon,The Gresh,Cottage Loaf,The Links and now the Snooze bar which leaves a lot of places missing out on my pound coins.

Do you agree with the archaic 'no riff raff' sign outside the Snooze bar?

I know Llandudno is a Victorian town but no need for a Victorian attitude to customers. The Sign (in black with bold white lettering) reads....

To be honest, after having spent an evening in The Lilly and seeing how far downmarket it has come in terms of decor and clientele since it was Fat Cats, I am quite glad that somewhere wants to keep up standards. I'd rather have at least one place free of the local hard nuts, who always look like they're one accidental bad look away from starting on someone, and their equally as scary girlfriends.

Slightly off topic but very positive..........I found this by accident, from Kent online ?..........

If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.That’s not Llandudno’s motto but when you’ve got something beautiful there’s not a lot of point making changes.The Victorian facade that overlooks the beach of this well-known North Wales seaside town would probably be just as it was in 1947 when my grandparents honeymooned here.But Llandudno was attracting people long before that.It was a favourite holiday-haunt of the Liddells, whose young daughter was Lewis Carroll’s inspiration for his much-loved children’s book, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.

While children can follow a trail of statues across town, depicting characters from Carroll’s story, adults can enjoy afternoon tea in the same hotel where Alice Liddell and her family holidayed back in 1861.The seafront St Tudno Hotel, a grand establishment, is one of only two places in Wales awarded the Tea Guild Award of Excellence.It wasn’t just us who were impressed. Travel writer Bill Bryson described Llandudno as his favourite seaside resort, and of the hotel he said: “It is the snug bar and outstanding restaurant that will bring me back.”

We stayed just around the corner, in Holcombe House. Owners Tony and Karen Fulker couldn’t have been more welcoming and we weren’t being singled out for favour either. Karen was picking up guests from the train station as we arrived.Llandudno can be reached direct from London Euston in just over three hours.It was the Fulker's keenness to go the extra mile – literally – that set Holcombe House apart from so many other places we’ve stayed in.The accommodation was spotless, the breakfast as hearty as you could stomach and the place was peaceful – something many big hotels bizarrely neglect.

Llandudno rarely gets frost and the hills which sit either side of the town are a natural protection from the worst weather. Great Orme overlooks the town, reaching 679 feet and providing amazing views.With the sun shining, Llandudno’s pier offered us the seaside entertainment you would expect – arcades, ice-creams, the smell of the sea. But this is no Skegness. You won’t find row after row of flashing neon signs and “kiss me quick” hats. It’s there if you want it, but not in your face.

Llandudno itself isn’t short of eating places. If you like Emmerdale you may have wondered what happened to Cain Dingle’s mum Faith. Well, actress Gillian Jephcott is now running the Seahorse restaurant with husband Don, the chef.The seafood is what Gill and Don pride themselves on and what has won them awards. The baked hake with thermidor sauce, which I sampled, was excellent. The restaurant is a minute's walk from the seafront and has daily fish specials.We left the town well fed and with plenty of happy memories – almost 70 years after my grandparents and 150 years after the Liddells.http://www.kentonline.co.uk/lifestyle/holidays/llandudno---splendour-by-the-17802/ (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/lifestyle/holidays/llandudno---splendour-by-the-17802/)

Hang on now - we're descending in to tit-for-tat; I respectfully submit that that's not what this is for. Of course, the row you're having is fundamentally one about a particular type of clientele in Llandudno and whether or not businesses ought to appeal to them or deny them service based on perceived behaviours; essentially relevant of course, but have the row there, in that territory, and not score points on largely irrelevant arguments.

On a less grumblesome note, great to see the details put to hand, especially on SteveH's part. Slow consensus seems to be that Llandudno is not in fact all that bad but needs to hedge its bets with those nice features it already has. I suppose we're all guilty of banging on about the new things Llandudno needs, but it couldn't go far wrong if it just improved/maintained what it already has.

Slow consensus seems to be that Llandudno is not in fact all that bad but needs to hedge its bets with those nice features it already has.

This is a long-standing concern of Wrex's; Llandudno's location and superb natural features make it a natural destination for those who delight in the natural world, but caring for the place in such a way as to maximise its natural advantages is or should be the priority of CCBC.

I'm still curious, however, about the main thrust of the original argument.

Slow consensus seems to be that Llandudno is not in fact all that bad but needs to hedge its bets with those nice features it already has.

This is a long-standing concern of Wrex's; Llandudno's location and superb natural features make it a natural destination for those who delight in the natural world, but caring for the place in such a way as to maximise its natural advantages is or should be the priority of CCBC.

I'm still curious, however, about the main thrust of the original argument.

Ian, I thought I made my very first post crystal clear, but if not I'll try again.Firstly, try and repeat your 30 minute survey on the Pier, or in Upper Mostyn St.... not at 9.30 am, but at 6pm in the evening.Actually, you will need MUCH longer than 30mins to see anything like 282 people to assess at that time, so get yourself a flask and some sandwiches. Get me?When you have completed the 282 person survey, I think your stats about ethnic origins will look VERY different.Another criteria you neglected to put into your survey..... had they bought anything? Were they here to contribute to the economy in any way?

Born to Run.Your obsession with the exclusions from The Snooze Bar is spiralling out of control.I 100% agree with those exclusions, and I know exactly why they did it.There is a hardcore of 'characters' who used to frequent The Parade, who returned when it re-opened as The Parade again.When it closed, they moved on to The Queen Vic and Cooney's. Some then got barred from The Vic.

So, The Snooze re-opened and they drifted back in there. I'm taking about the sort of folk that are VERY anti-social, and you wouldn't want associated with your newly opened venture.

The Snooze Bar is excellent, stylish and welcoming, but certainly wouldn't be if the 'faces' that I referred to were to take up residency again.Strangely enough, the crowd I am referring to tend to wear football shirts, and some other items of apparel listed on the sign you refer to!

Fester, ............ "you will need MUCH longer than 30mins to see anything like 282 people" So although visitor numbers are up ?, you are not seeing them on the pier.?? ....What do you think is wrong.

Not enough marketing, lack of attractions, do people know what is on the pier, is it just a walk and an ice cream ....

Fester, ............ "you will need MUCH longer than 30mins to see anything like 282 people" So although visitor numbers are up ?, you are not seeing them on the pier.?? ....What do you think is wrong.

Not enough marketing, lack of attractions, do people know what is on the pier, is it just a walk and an ice cream ....

I don't know what's on the pier, and I'm on here most days! On one of the signs inside the Langtrys or whatever it is called now it says'Live entertainment every evening' But there is nothing further no schedules, programmes nothing, nothing on the website either, nothing at all expanding on who the entertainment is or indeed what it is. Could be anything from a Jazz band to Badger Baiting for all I know (both equally deplorable by the way _))*)

Fester, still don't buy it &shake&. Surely they can just bar those unsavoury characters without making a sign that puts off 90% of potential customers!Are some of these thugs in baby buggies? Because they have banned those as well as Dogs (against discrimination laws btw as guide dogs should be allowed)

Steve H,You're either missing my point, or I'm making it very badly.What I'm saying is, Upper Mostyn St, The Pier, and several other areas are DEAD by 4.30pm.Even on a weekend, all my colleagues have been closing between 4pm and 5pm.During the day (on weekdays) even during the 'busier' hours, you see mainly locals walking dogs, or walking to the end and back as part of their daily exercise schedule. That's all fine, but they used to obscured by hoards of other people, coach parties, well-heeled couples etc, and so the Pier and the areas I refer to were generally much busier.

As I write, I am on the Pier now, and I am the only kiosk open for the last hour or so.I look around me and I can conduct a survey on the 11 or so people who are within 200 yards of me. Here goes.2 old dears who are coughing and spluttering, whilst smoking, a good 50ft away from the designated smoking area.3 Chinese (?) people sharing 2 ipads, and gleefully taking pictures of a seagull.1 Man of about 22 stone in weight, who is more tattoos than human, wearing a 'Tap Out' vest and flip flops. He is more concerned about his 2 screaming kids, and ignoring his pestering wife, (easy when you have your earphones in, as he does)If only he would stop his kids from playing with my outside merchandise, and probably nicking it for all EITHER of us know.'Hey Rambo.... do you mind....' Forget it Fester, he can't hear you.

2 Eastern European girls, who look great, but I can't understand a word they are saying. Stilettos are not the most appropriate footwear on a Victorian Pier. 1 middle aged lady, who has just popped in to my kiosk to ask where the toilets are.1, Chap on a motability scooter who looks like he died several years ago, but no one bothered to tell him. They have propped him up 'El Cid' like, charged him up and sent him off for the day.

A weather-beaten Fisherman, hauling off a trolley full off tackle.

A miserable looking Pier employee, realising that they have FIVE more hours of monotony to endure, before they can 'clock off'

That's it, survey complete.I'm off to Upper Mostyn St to have a beer.... I might pop into The Snooze, .........where I can be sure of remaining unmolested by undesirables! (unless of course Born to Run tries to come in)

1. Upper Mostyn St, The Pier, and several other areas are DEAD by 4.30pm. Presumably that excludes Upper MS on weekends after 1200 AM?

2. (On) "the 282 person survey, I think your stats about ethnic origins will look VERY different." which seems to me to suggest your concern is about (those with varied) ethnic origins visiting the town.

Finally, your grasp on what constitutes a cross-sectional observational survey is wobbly when you say "Another criteria you neglected to put into your survey..... had they bought anything? Were they here to contribute to the economy in any way?" because it's tricky impossible to deduce that from simple observation. But the pigeon seemed happy.

As I write, I am on the Pier now, and I am the only kiosk open for the last hour or so.I look around me and I can conduct a survey on the 11 or so people who are within 200 yards of me. Here goes.2 old dears who are coughing and spluttering, whilst smoking, a good 50ft away from the designated smoking area.3 Chinese (?) people sharing 2 ipads, and gleefully taking pictures of a seagull.1 Man of about 22 stone in weight, who is more tattoos than human, wearing a 'Tap Out' vest and flip flops. He is more concerned about his 2 screaming kids, and ignoring his pestering wife, (easy when you have your earphones in, as he does)If only he would stop his kids from playing with my outside merchandise, and probably nicking it for all EITHER of us know.'Hey Rambo.... do you mind....' Forget it Fester, he can't hear you.

2 Eastern European girls, who look great, but I can't understand a word they are saying. Stilettos are not the most appropriate footwear on a Victorian Pier. 1 middle aged lady, who has just popped in to my kiosk to ask where the toilets are.1, Chap on a motability scooter who looks like he died several years ago, but no one bothered to tell him. They have propped him up 'El Cid' like, charged him up and sent him off for the day.

A weather-beaten Fisherman, hauling off a trolley full off tackle.

A miserable looking Pier employee, realising that they have FIVE more hours of monotony to endure, before they can 'clock off'

Fester, those descriptions made me laugh out loud. Brilliant!Retirement approaching and I can recommend it.

Red Arrows.............. a row of people on mobility scooters trying to see who can go fastest.The law doesn't apply to me.............people with dogs running loose .............people feeding the sea gulls thus causing a mob.The Golightly family...........a row of huge people waddling along eating bags of chips.Memory Foam family...........same but bigger.Have you looked in the mirror Missis?.......... person with either boobs or knickers crutch on show.Mutton dressed as lamb.........elderly person in tight mini skirt.Cum'ere our so and so...........ouch, need I say more !

.....which seems to me to suggest your concern is about (those with varied) ethnic origins visiting the town.

Ian, if you go back to my original post, that is EXCACTLY what I made reference to. Not a concern as such, (well, I suppose it is if they tend to be 'culturally averse' to buying anything)... it was more a statement of fact that out of the same (or less) people visiting the town, a rapidly growing proportion of them are from Asian or Eastern European ethnicity.This isn't something that you have drawn out of me, this is precisely what I said in Post no'1

It is merely a statement of fact, and not a subject to shy away from.

This is why I chose to to name the thread 'The changing face....', rather than anything more dramatic.

Anyway, we've gone round in a huge circle, achieved nothing, but at least used up some bandwidth.We haven't really stimulated any kind of contentious debate, though I was hoping it would.

The problem is Fester, you started this thread with facts that everyone seems to basically agree with. Hardly a good way of starting a contentious debate! Try making things up next time.

But I think you have made a very interesting and useful observation. It is not the fact that the type of visitor has changed, as that will always happen, but it is the rate of that change that is creating the challenge.

The pier is a good example. It may be the case that today's visitors don't automatically go to the pier simply because it is there, whereas visitors of the past may have done so almost with out thinking. This means they need to have a reason to go there. I have lived in Llandudno for nearly 10 years, but have probably only been on the pier 10 times. I did venture there a couple of weeks ago, walked to the end and walked back. It was nice enough, but there was nothing that really entertained, amused or interested me. Hopefully the new owner will address this, but of course people around here are not always very keen on change.

I saw the reference to ethnicity in the original post, but I did not feel qualified to comment, however I did treat the problem as I saw it, a lack of footfall/trade hence all the research, and I still see it that way, if the numbers are low then something has to be done to improve that, or if you had high numbers of ethnic visitors find out what they want.Festers quote......."The few people who are here, are not what you would think of as the traditional seaside visitor.The challenge is to cater for what they want to buy, if indeed they are willing (or able) to buy anything!"Andy's quote......"The pier is a good example. It may be the case that today's visitors don't automatically go to the pier simply because it is there, whereas visitors of the past may have done so almost with out thinking. This means they need to have a reason to go there. I have lived in Llandudno for nearly 10 years, but have probably only been on the pier 10 times. I did venture there a couple of weeks ago, walked to the end and walked back. It was nice enough, but there was nothing that really entertained, amused or interested me. Hopefully the new owner will address this, but of course people around here are not always very keen on change."

I think Andy's comments are spot on.

The rise in Asian takeaways 6 in such a small area is worrying I still think upper Mostyn st. is perfect for a niche market in high end eateries and bars (wishful thinking) Festers quote......"You see there is a very different type of demographic visiting Llandudno these days, and it has accelerated in the last year.It is a subject that is sensitive in many ways, but it is not a subject we should be frightened of discussing."

I must be missing the point because I do not see what "we should be frightened of discussing."

What is puzzling about what I have said?Sometimes, just sometimes in life, you might have to accept that people can say something, at face value.... and it doesn't need to have hidden meanings, need any further depth of research..... and that they might actually have a point!

I don't think anything I said was confusing, designed to obfuscate, or required any clarification.... but out of courtesy, I did it anyway!

We have worked out that Llandudno is mad busy at weekends but seems very quiet during the week,we know the pier will become much more commercial being run by fairground people,we know CCBC will not improve our beach whatsoever,we know Mostyn estates are buying up all the empty shops,and we know nobody is prepared to invest in decent pubs in town,we have a few closed hotels ,Grand Ash,Royal etc,and of course we have town council and county councillors whom seem to have no balls and will not fight Llandudno;s corner.

I look around me and I can conduct a survey on the 11 or so people who are within 200 yards of me. Here goes.2 old dears who are coughing and spluttering, whilst smoking, a good 50ft away from the designated smoking area.3 Chinese (?) people sharing 2 ipads, and gleefully taking pictures of a seagull.1 Man of about 22 stone in weight, who is more tattoos than human, wearing a 'Tap Out' vest and flip flops. He is more concerned about his 2 screaming kids, and ignoring his pestering wife, (easy when you have your earphones in, as he does)If only he would stop his kids from playing with my outside merchandise, and probably nicking it for all EITHER of us know.'Hey Rambo.... do you mind....' Forget it Fester, he can't hear you.

2 Eastern European girls, who look great, but I can't understand a word they are saying. Stilettos are not the most appropriate footwear on a Victorian Pier. 1 middle aged lady, who has just popped in to my kiosk to ask where the toilets are.1, Chap on a motability scooter who looks like he died several years ago, but no one bothered to tell him. They have propped him up 'El Cid' like, charged him up and sent him off for the day.

That's it, survey complete.

If that's how you talk about people in the vicinity of your shop no wonder they don't come in eh....

The thread has gone full circle, right back to my original post. There is no real interest in it, let it die like the vast majority.

Never entirely sure why you feel the need to resort to personal abuse when you're presumably feeling backed into a corner, Fester, but I'll say it again: be more specific about what concerns you. I, for one, still have no idea about what it is - precisely - that you're saying. If you were little more detailed, explicit and unambiguous we might be able to enjoy a reasoned debate.

Do you think the majority of kiosks on the pier represent good value for money?

Because they don't.

Perhaps visitors are just a little bit more custom savvy in these austere times?

It always was the case when you went on holiday usual budgets went out the window and it was a spend for all. But can most families really afford that these days?

My guess is after the travel, possibly accomidation, food,drinks etc people are not left with much.

AND .. I don't think it's just because they are Asian/Jewish/Chinese whatever, I think traditional visitors are spending less.

Fester.....

The floor is yours L0L

Fair play B2R, I'm going to answer all of that in the most constructive and open way that I can.Firstly, I will say that you are 100% correct that austerity has left less disposable income in people's pockets.That is more and more obvious everyday.Parents or Grandparents have less to spend these days, and all you can hear being said is 'you can have a ride, OR and ice cream but not both' That of course applies to the Toys and Jokes shop opposite, where several times a day you will hear.. 'you had that ice cream, so there's nothing left for that toy'

As regards to value for money in the shops on the pier.If I saw any of my colleagues (competitors?) arriving in Mercedes or Porsche cars, then I might wonder.But no, I have to say that given the wholesale price of gift items, and the fact that rents have almost TREBLED in the last 6 years, then I don't actually know how some of them continue to trade.Roughly half the kiosks on the pier are run by people of retirement age, who are working there simply to top up their pension.To be more certain of this, you can look at the websites of local or national gift wholesale companies to see the cost prices.When you add on VAT, and delivery charges. you need to add on some profit margin to cover all costs.

I know one thing for sure, for the hassle and pilferage that they have to contend with, for the colossal rents they have been saddled with and hard work they put in.... I CERTAINLY would NOT do what they do, for the money they make.

Another indicator of whether the kiosks are 'viable', is the fact that roughly 75% of them are not what they were 6 years ago.I don't feel like I have been on here long, but I am now one of the 'Elder Statesmen'Many of the kiosks have been 4 different things in the last 6 years, as people think they can make a go of it, and then fall by the wayside when the grim reality hits.

Some wise words which were imparted to me when I first enquired about taking a shop on the pier; 'If you work hard and really put the hours in, you can make a living, but you cannot and will not make a fortune'Those words are more true now than ever.

Another thing that is proving to be true, you cannot even make a 'proper' living unless you have someone to help and support you... and I am lucky to have other sources of income. THAT is a must.

Feel free to ask for any more on this subject..... and stay out of Poundland! :laugh:

Hmmm. Almost certainly true of parents but I'm not so sure about Grandparents. For those over 65, certainly, this period of austerity hasn't been that bad. Their pensions have continued to rise in line with inflation, most over-65s were protected against benefits loss and those who had or have mortgages are much better off and have been during the last six years.

Ahhhh you see you've stumbled on a fair point there. Poundland... Amazon, 99p shop :laugh:, pound bakery, et al. I would say these super emporiums are a bigger threat to these shops than you might think. It is not hard to find a better price these days and local shops are hurting just as local pubs do with Cheaperspoons on their door step.

To survive perhaps these kiosks need to provide something unique that the other shops can't?

Never entirely sure why you feel the need to resort to personal abuse when you're presumably feeling backed into a corner, Fester, but I'll say it again: be more specific about what concerns you. I, for one, still have no idea about what it is - precisely - that you're saying. If you were little more detailed, explicit and unambiguous we might be able to enjoy a reasoned debate.

Ian, I genuinely apologise if you feel that I have 'personally abused' you.I really mean that, but you might find out what personal abuse is if you frequented some of the local hostelries preferred by Born to Run! :laugh:

I don't feel backed into a corner, I just feel irritated that I have raised a topic, been very specific in my comments, but you have chosen to pick it apart, (which is your right).I don't really know what you want me to say? I can't be anymore direct than I have been.Parts of town are very quiet, more quiet than ever... and the TYPES of people who make up the remainder of the footfall have changed quite dramatically this last couple of years.

I'm really struggling to be more specific, and we are going over old ground.

Hmmm. Almost certainly true of parents but I'm not so sure about Grandparents. For those over 65, certainly, this period of austerity hasn't been that bad. Their pensions have continued to rise in line with inflation, most over-65s were protected against benefits loss and those who had or have mortgages are much better off and have been during the last six years.

Ahh, but that's the point... Grandparents of kids today are NOT over 65! They are closer to 45, (lets say 50 to be kind), and they have had 7 years of financial pain.

Ahhhh you see you've stumbled on a fair point there. Poundland... Amazon, 99p shop :laugh:, pound bakery, et al. I would say these super emporiums are a bigger threat to these shops than you might think. It is not hard to find a better price these days and local shops are hurting just as local pubs do with Cheaperspoons on their door step.

To survive perhaps these kiosks need to provide something unique that the other shops can't?

Hmmm. Almost certainly true of parents but I'm not so sure about Grandparents. For those over 65, certainly, this period of austerity hasn't been that bad. Their pensions have continued to rise in line with inflation, most over-65s were protected against benefits loss and those who had or have mortgages are much better off and have been during the last six years.

Where the Grandparents have lost is through the pathetic return of their savings which some rely on to supplement their pension to give them a higher standard of living. Most will have paid off their houses so their loss can't be offset by the gain of record low interest rates on mortgages.

I doubt if anyone on pension who does not have savings or a private pension and are reliant on state pension only , can afford to go to the seaside or anywere else let alone bye the kids presents and ice cream

To survive perhaps these kiosks need to provide something unique that the other shops can't?

Ahh, but surely many already do!Have a walk down there and ask yourself where else could I buy;

A £450 bizarre original drawing of a bunny?A figurine of a meerkat dressed as Elvis?A bottle of the world famous Llandudno 'Snake Oil', the cure for all ills, and the elixir of life!A photograph of your own 'psychic aura'? .. and for an extra £35 you can have an interview with your deceased Grandmother?A genuine Llandudno conch shell from Bangkok?

Where the Grandparents have lost is through the pathetic return of their savings which some rely on to supplement their pension to give them a higher standard of living. Most will have paid off their houses so their loss can't be offset by the gain of record low interest rates on mortgages.

Yes - of course. Very good point.

Quote

I don't really know what you want me to say? I can't be anymore direct than I have been.Parts of town are very quiet, more quiet than ever... and the TYPES of people who make up the remainder of the footfall have changed quite dramatically this last couple of years.

Really what I'm trying to see is exactly which types we're talking about, and how each of those types can be identified and communicated with. For instance, last week a large group of Jewish girls came into a cafe - clearly to use the toilets - and bought very little, although they were exceptionally polite. Later on we encountered a very large group - clearly a coach load - of what I suspect were Charedi, to judge from their clothing, walking down to West Shore.

Is it this sort of thing you're talking about? There has been a significant rise in the past six years in the amount of property purchased by various Jewish groups, for instance, but Judaism is a homogeneous culture, so many lack the ostensible trappings of the Orthodox groups. But these groups comprise a very small part of the overall visitor numbers, to be fair. They're more obvious but I suspect that's it, really.

In the summer months we do get coach loads of Hindi and Sikh visitors from Manchester, and they can be delightful. But we've been seeing them for years. Is this what you mean?

Hello Ian, I am being brave and just dipping my toe in this thread. But----no long arguments or discussions. No, its just you mention Charedi. To quote you "clearly a coach load." Possible, but highly unlikely. There is'ent a Charedi coach company in the country, and any outsiders to use the best description I can think would have great difficulty in hiring a coach. Why? Well here I write from personal experience being involved in coaching for thirty years. Its not that the Charedi are badly behaved. Goodness only knows the behaviour of most of the coach travellers to shall we say Blackpool are just about as bad as you can get. No, its because the charedi are STRANGE. At least they are strange to anyone not familiar with them. And that is the only word I can use to describe them. Up to 150 of them used to stay in Howells School in Denbigh every summer. They all travelled up from London by coach. Every one of the three coaches hired refused absolutely to take them anywhere whilst they were in North Wales, The drivers just couldn't cope with the way they behaved. Not badly. Just different. Very different. My firm reluctantly took over, and I was involved. I won't go further but the nearest I can say is that it was like trying to connect with people from a different planet. Strange little men from Mars would have been easy by comparison.

I refer to Fester's early post about the kind of people he observes on the pier - I think you could see most of the people he describes walking in Mostyn Street and around the town every day during the summer season and they are all bringing something to the town ££$

They're brought up to believe that all non-Charedi hate them, Mike. Their only education is biblical, and status in that society, which routinely communicates through Hebrew, is dependent on knowledge of the Torah. Marriages are both early and arranged and restrictions on their lifestyle are enormous.

Judaism is essentially a religious coalition, in that there are numerous sects and sub-sects, some of which (exactly as in Christianity) are so extreme they beggar belief. The more extreme Jewish groups won't talk to non-Jews, certainly won't eat with them, are allowed only a very prescriptive diet of food prepared in a certain way and (more importantly) by the 'right' people. This engenders behaviour which is certainly viewed as strange by many, especially by those who believe in and attempt to encourage multi-racial societies. Most worryingly, however (and this applies to virtually every religion across the globe) they are imbued with the belief they are innately superior to non-Charedi or non-followers.

They're a minority group within Judaism and there're a lot of Jewish scholars concerned about their approach to education, life and belief.

(On an interesting side-note, a Jewish acquaintance of mine once recounted an anecdote about how he'd once engaged with some of the more Orthodox-minded visitors to Llandudno, and asked them why they liked it so much as a visitor destination - they, only partly tongue-in-cheek, replied: "It's the only place we can take the boys to a nice beach where they won't see young women in bikinis.")

Right - if we're to delve down in to race demographics (and so long as things remain civil, don't see why not - they will figure importantly as cultural and religious backgrounds will inform and guide what people buy, after all), I have to admit I'm out of my depth in this one. No clue where the main streams of ethnic minority visitors to Llandudno will come from or from which backgrounds - but as others have noted, the changing face of Llandudno will mirror national trends.

I know it'd be ridiculous to enforce - as you'd have to pay someone to stand at a kiosk all day handing out tickets or manning a turnstile - but has the idea of an entrance fee to the pier ever been mooted? I imagine it would cheese off people in Fester's position as it could easily threaten their business by putting off visitors. That said, if you only charged something like 50p and made it free for kids under 12, that would be a revenue stream which the pier owners don't otherwise have, which would then hopefully allow them to ease up the rates on traders AND help keep up a funding pot for general maintenance and overall improvement of the pier. That way, it solves the problem of people coming on to the pier and enjoying a leisurely walk in impressive seaside surroundings but not buying anything. Of course, it could also nark locals no end as they'd be used to walking on the pier for free.

I have to admit (apologies in advance to Fester!) while I have walked on the pier scores, if not hundreds, of times, I don't think I've ever bought anything from the kiosks. That said, I have made use of the arcades and the bar at the far end, plus ice creams etc, so some of my money (at least) will have gone in to its upkeep.

The difficulty with these things is the introductory period - I've no quibble with the toll to drive along Marine Drive as it's a bloody nice drive, the cost is minimal and it's been in force as long as I can remember. But had it been free for years and someone decided to introduce one, there would be some outcry, even only a small one.

Going back to my original point of the make-up of Llandudno's visitors - I can understand why some locals might be perturbed, but if some more Indian restaurants open up because of a higher number of ethnically Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi et al visitors to the town, and those restaurants go on to pay rates etc, I can't see how that in and of itself is a bad thing. Never mind the fact they'll also be catering to demand provided by a huge chunk of ethnically white/British etc visitors. Not that it's happened yet, but likewise if someone were to open up a kosher or halal restaurant (controversial moral issues surrounding such methods of slaughter notwithstanding).

As always, I'm going to be a gonk and ask if anyone has any numbers :P

As always, I'm going to be a gonk and ask if anyone has any numbers :P

I can't find any at all, but that doesn't surprise me. Not even sure how you'd go about compiling such figures. But data is what we need, that's for sure. We know that visitor numbers overall are up and have been growing steadily for some time. I'd also venture to suggest there might well be a lot of cancellations by holidaymakers hoping to visit Morocco, Tunisia and possibly Turkey and Egypt and they'll all be looking for somewhere to visit.

Not to mention Greece. As to charging a fee to walk on the pier. This is not unknown. I am reasonably sure the North pier in Blackpool has a charge, if only at peak times. I also have a very, very vague idea that there might have been a charge at Llandudno many years ago, and I also seem to have a feeling that you had to pay if you wanted access past the toll keeper beyond the Grand Hotel, but you could walk on for free from the entrance that took you past the arcades and the pavilion. Have I dreamt this? Or maybe told this as a child as to how things used to be? I'm not at all sure.

Re Jonty's Post..." has the idea of an entrance fee to the pier ever been mooted?"

It was brought up last year in connection with the CB pier, not so much an entrance fee but a donation to ensure it would survive, don't know if that would work with a private firm, but unless piers can make a profit it might be the only way.........

"If some more Indian restaurants open up because of a higher number of ethnically Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi et al visitors to the town"

Do they actually eat in their own restaurants ? ? ....I have not seen very many in the restaurants I have visited.....But most Asian restaurants in this country are catering to the British pallet, in saying that there is a growing trend for more specialised high end Asian eateries, which I think would be welcome here.

"I have to admit (apologies in advance to Fester!) while I have walked on the pier scores, if not hundreds, of times, I don't think I've ever bought anything from the kiosks. That said, I have made use of the arcades and the bar at the far end, plus ice creams etc, so some of my money (at least) will have gone in to its upkeep."

Same here...........Do we have to ask the question,...... Why have we not spent any money ?

Do minority ethnic groups ever go on seaside holidays? Some kind of unwritten apartheid still seems to apply. Still, I suppose its giving the children a lesson in social history: “So this is what Britain was like 50 years ago – old, white people drinking tea.”"

We DON'T like to be beside the seaside: One in nine UK children has never set foot on a British beach ... and one in three has never made a sandcastleChildren are missing out on activities such as skimming stones and crabbing

The research revealed 65 per cent of the UK’s Generation Z – those born after the millennium – have never been beside the sea in Cornwall, and 68 per cent have never been to play in the sand in Devon.

One of the problems, Great Western says, is that a quarter of parents (26 per cent) now believe that overseas holidays are cheaper. The survey showed that modern day four to 16-year-olds are missing out on traditional seaside fun.One in three youngsters have never made a sandcastle (36 per cent) and more than half have not been crabbing (53 per cent).

Race at the seaside: What shapes British seaside culture?Daniel Burdsey explains why British seaside towns are markedly less multicultural compared with other urban areas in the nation.By: Professor Laurie Taylor (Guest), Dr Daniel Burdsey (University of Brighton

I have been discussing this subject with some traders and retired folk who have enlightened me as to a phenomena which is going on, concerning visitors to Llandudno.... and when I digested what I heard, it makes me think that we are BOTH right in this debate. There are MORE visitors to Llandudno, and LESS at the same time.Let me explain.

Hoteliers and traders with more than 30 years experience have told me that there are less weekly visitors, but more daily visitors. The visitors themselves are coming in great numbers from the caravan sites near Towyn, Rhyl etc... but they actually LIVE FULL TIME in those caravans. Across the UK, due to high rents and mortgages, many caravan parks which used to cater for holidays are now purely used as accommodation for families on benefits. The owners of these caravan parks are able to command very high rents from the DSS, and are guaranteed income all year round.These are the folk who are travelling down to Llandudno, multiple times per week, and most likely being 'counted' multiple times... so the town SEEMS busy.This also fits in perfectly with what I've been saying about Town being quiet in the mornings, and after 5pm.They have left Llandudno by then, to get their bits and bobs from Aldi or Lidl, and are back in their caravans for the night.

Of course these people have no money to spend on gifts, luxuries etc... and this is exactly in line with the TYPE of people I have seen on the Pier and elsewhere.

It all makes sense now.

I was also able to talk to one of the Managers of the tramway, who has always stated that his Trams were busier than ever.When I asked him how this was measured, he said it was 'financial turnover'I said, 'not physical ticket numbers sold then?'

No he said, we have never kept records of that.

So when I pointed out to him that the Tram fare had increased by over 30% since 2012, he withdrew from the discussion, somewhat embarrassed.

"Anyway, why does the British seaside need museums? The British seaside is a museum."

Fester:

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These are the folk who are travelling down to Llandudno, multiple times per week, and most likely being 'counted' multiple times... so the town SEEMS busy.

On the SH studies they only counted numbers employed in tourist-related occupations, not actual visitors. It was considered by statisticians that employment rises in line with (spending) visitor numbers.

Once a week we drive from Llandudno to the Southerly end of the Conwy Valley at roughly 1630 and from a few weeks ago it became clear that we needed to find an alternative route to Black Cat, other than the usual A470, such were the numbers of vehicles. It's long been clear that day-visitor numbers are rising and have been for many years; the Guardian report implies that the state of the seaside hotel is partly to blame but I'm not sure if that's true in Llandudno. It probably was, but the arrival of the big chain hotels, coupled with the performance of the Court hotels and others does suggest that hoteliers in the town are really upping their game.

Trade everywhere is down; when giants like Tesco start feeling the pinch, and even Sainsbury and Asda are counting pennies it's obvious we're still not entirely out of the woods. But quite how much of a fiscal barometer the uniquely seasidy-pier is I'm not sure.

Steve: you just knew putting a survey from the DFM would draw me out, didn't you? :rage: :rage: :rage:

They say of children

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36% have never made a sandcastle53% have not fished for crabs38% have not eaten ice cream on UK beach 43% have never held a shell to their ear to52% have never skimmed stones in the sea12% of parents 'forgotten UK's good points'80% have never been to Stonehenge85% have never been to the Roman Baths73% have never visited the Tower of London54% haven’t been to a farm

These are the things I've never done:

1. fished for crabs. They nip. 2. eaten ice cream on UK beach. Well, did once, but the wind blew sand into the soft and almost certainly bacteria-infested slush so it became a grit-ice. 3. held a shell to their ear to 'hear the sea'. Most parents are now too concerned about radiation poisoning, heavy metal contamination, ear-piercing, auditory-invading crablets - horror-film style - leaping out and consuming their infant. Plus it's simply daft to suggest holding an echo chamber to your ear does anything other than muffle external noises.4. never been to Stonehenge. Seen it so many times in Sci Fi serials it'd only be a disappointment, now. 5. never been to the Roman Baths in Bath. Been to some in Sussex and Chester. The Chester ones are superb. But seen 'em once. And they wouldn't let you take a dip...6. never visited the Tower of London. Might have done and even tried a few times, But when the queues are two hours long, the weather either stiflingly hot or wet and windy, the prices so high and the end result almost certainly a let-down on what you'll have seen many times on TV and the movies - why bother?

Perhaps had they included more salient ideas, such as those who walk to school, or those who go for walks regularly with their parents, those who go swimming a lot, those who play tennis, cricket or other physically demanding games or even assumed that travelling on trains doesn't necessarily mean the end destination will involve a traumatic day on the beach fending off carnivorous crabs, extracting grit from a ham sandwich or recovering from a massive bout of diarrhoea after eating a soft-scoop ice cream they might have produced a more meaningful survey.

"Daniel Burdsey:Sure, seaside locations remain overwhelmingly white places. [There's] a number of reasons for this, I think. Traditionally minority ethnic communities have lived in urban locations of the bigger towns and cities and we can trace that back to the mass migrations of the 1950s and '60s to places of industry.

Laurie Taylor:And in many cases, of course, they're coming in and arriving and joining families who already are living in urban locations, aren't they, because of the work?

Daniel Burdsey:Absolutely, absolutely. And more peripheral coastal locations tend to have relatively immobile populations who tend to live for generations without perhaps moving in or out.

There's also an over-representation of older populations which does tend to contribute to a whiter demographic in these places. Sign welcoming visitors to Brighton and Hove Welcome to Brighton for everyone?

Laurie Taylor:And you'd want to say, I think, that at the coast or in seaside towns there's an association somehow between being in a seaside town, being by the sea, and what people who are perhaps white feel about national identity - this place is somehow 'for' them?

Daniel Burdsey:Yes, I think you're right. I think the seaside is still embedded in aspects of the national psyche and survey evidence suggests that people do still closely associate the seaside with aspects of national identity.

I think there's a geographical issue here: the coast or the seaside is literally a place on the edge, the edge of the nation, it's a finite border and so it's habitually associated with notions of invasion and defence - both the white cliffs of Dover are the...

Laurie Taylor:And it fits nicely. It just suddenly came to me this, that [I think] Paul Theroux wrote about the number of sort of Brits who go and drive their cars to the edge of the country and sit there staring out to sea, which he said, really they are imaginatively seeing themselves as the old imperialist, they see themselves, like their ancestors, sailing away. Possibly, that's a bit fanciful but anyway...

Very interestingly though, after having analysed the demographic facts of this, you turned to the ways in which really the social attractions of seaside towns [are], if you like,[...] white attractions.

Daniel Burdsey:Yes, I identified a number of themes within the seaside amusements and entertainments and other aspects of popular culture and the things I identified, firstly, was the way in which these amusements and entertainments promote and exoticised and/or orientalist representation of the ethnic or racial other;

The way in which representations of white bodies are juxtaposed against black ones;

And finally the way in which seaside amusements and entertainments engage in ideas of exploring and conquering sort of non-Western primitive landscapes, whether that be the jungle or the wild west or ancient Egypt.

Laurie Taylor:So a lot of these old amusements, these arcades, these museums, these galleries or whatever, in many cases black faces are absent, but if they're present they're present in a rather stereotypical fashion?

Daniel Burdsey:Absolutely. I mean there's strong historical reference to this, you can trace this back...

Laurie Taylor:But I suppose many people listening would say well it's a lot of old kitsch and it's stuck there and no doubt it has some of these resonances, I mean would you want to say however, if people came to look at this they would feel themselves sort of absent or would they feel themselves offended by it?

Daniel Burdsey:I think the bottom line is that most people engaging in seaside leisure, entertainments, amusements perhaps don't appreciate the signifying attributes of these things. It is a place for fantasy, of fun, adventure, escapism but I think just because they don't perhaps have these sort of functioning connotations for people we shouldn't ignore the sort of....

Laurie Taylor:Are we talking about attraction or repulsion? That black people decide that they don't want to go to places like this because they feel of them as white, or do you feel that the sort of white people there are actively hostile?

When you've looked at these towns are there other aspects of those towns and the way they behave, the political decisions they make, which suggests to you that really there is some ideology lurking behind these representations?

Daniel Burdsey:I think that might be a tenuous link.

I think the issue around the way in which these environments are racialised from the sort of subsequent research is more about the sort of control and dominance of social space with certain parts of seafronts, towns, being seen as sort of safer spaces and others not.

But what was clear I think which came out of this and some of the subsequent research is that what is often seen as innocent tradition for some people can actually have quite racialised and excluding connotations for other groups.

Not to mention Greece. As to charging a fee to walk on the pier. This is not unknown. I am reasonably sure the North pier in Blackpool has a charge, if only at peak times. I also have a very, very vague idea that there might have been a charge at Llandudno many years ago, and I also seem to have a feeling that you had to pay if you wanted access past the toll keeper beyond the Grand Hotel, but you could walk on for free from the entrance that took you past the arcades and the pavilion. Have I dreamt this? Or maybe told this as a child as to how things used to be? I'm not at all sure.

North Pier used to charge 50p to walk on the pier, this was withdrawn in 2012 when new owners took over. There have been charges at Llandudno Pier since it was built, they ended in the 1980s, I think, by which time you only had to pay to walk down the main neck of the pier.

The visitors themselves are coming in great numbers from the caravan sites near Towyn, Rhyl etc... but they actually LIVE FULL TIME in those caravans. Across the UK, due to high rents and mortgages, many caravan parks which used to cater for holidays are now purely used as accommodation for families on benefits. The owners of these caravan parks are able to command very high rents from the DSS, and are guaranteed income all year round.

Are they living in those caravans illegally? I believe caravans can only be occupied for 10 months a year maximum. Why doesn't the DSS just refuse to pay Housing Benefit to Caravan Parks, as they are not considered suitable permanent accommodation.

The visitors themselves are coming in great numbers from the caravan sites near Towyn, Rhyl etc... but they actually LIVE FULL TIME in those caravans. Across the UK, due to high rents and mortgages, many caravan parks which used to cater for holidays are now purely used as accommodation for families on benefits. The owners of these caravan parks are able to command very high rents from the DSS, and are guaranteed income all year round.

Are they living in those caravans illegally? I believe caravans can only be occupied for 10 months a year maximum. Why doesn't the DSS just refuse to pay Housing Benefit to Caravan Parks, as they are not considered suitable permanent accommodation.

To be fair some of these caravans are vastly better than some damp & dingy bedsit provided by a slum landlord.

The visitors themselves are coming in great numbers from the caravan sites near Towyn, Rhyl etc... but they actually LIVE FULL TIME in those caravans. Across the UK, due to high rents and mortgages, many caravan parks which used to cater for holidays are now purely used as accommodation for families on benefits. The owners of these caravan parks are able to command very high rents from the DSS, and are guaranteed income all year round.

Are they living in those caravans illegally? I believe caravans can only be occupied for 10 months a year maximum. Why doesn't the DSS just refuse to pay Housing Benefit to Caravan Parks, as they are not considered suitable permanent accommodation.

There was a BBC1 Documentary, Panorama special about this only recently.It focused on Canvey Island and the S.East of England. It was frightening really, and a really awful standard of living for those trapped there. Visiting cameramen and journalists were roughly deterred from snooping around.Residents who spoke to the programme were told they would be kicked out of the only 'home' they had.Whilst ideally a caravan park might not be 'suitable', there is a chronic housing shortage, and property owners and caravan park owners are taking FULL advantage of it.

Regardless of the family income, (lower or middle income,) Recession or not, I think todays families have different priorities on spending.....

Mobile phones......More than half of all U.S. cellphone owners carry a device like the iPhone, a shift that has unsettled household budgets across the country. Government data show people have spent more on phone bills over the past four years, even as they have dialed back on dining out, clothes and entertainment—cutbacks that have been keenly felt in the restaurant, apparel and film industries.http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444083304578018731890309450 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444083304578018731890309450)

More than a million British kids get first mobile phone by the time they’re five.Parents spend an average £246 on their own handsets, compared to £125 on their children’s – but more than one in ten kids under 16 (15%) have mobiles worth more than their parents’http://www.uswitch.com/media-centre/2013/08/more-than-a-million-british-kids-get-first-mobile-phone-by-the-time-theyre-five (http://www.uswitch.com/media-centre/2013/08/more-than-a-million-british-kids-get-first-mobile-phone-by-the-time-theyre-five)

The average Brit blows £416 a year on lottery and scratchcards, not to mention on line bingo etc.

Welsh tourism had a flying start to 2015 with day trip spending surging by 20%.Official figures published by the Welsh Government show that the tourism industry in Wales had a fantastic first quarter following a record breaking 2014.

The figures for the Great Britain Day Visits survey from January – April, including the Easter holidays, show that 23 million tourism day visits were made by British residents to destinations in Wales during the first quarter of 2015, generating expenditure of £750 million.

This expenditure is up 20% on the same period last year and Wales’ share of all tourism day visits made by British residents to destinations in Great Britain in the first four months of 2015 was also up on last year.

The results from the Great Britain Tourism Survey also show 7% increase in overnight stays in Wales from GB visitors during first quarter of 2015 while expenditure is 32% up.

Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Ken Skates, said: “Following a record breaking year in 2014 we are working with the industry to sustain these excellent figures."It is therefore very encouraging that figures from the first quarter are positive, especially as these figures include the Easter period, which is a busy start to the season for the industry. Tourism is in a strong position.

Deputy culture and tourism minister Ken SkatesDeputy culture and tourism minister Ken Skates"Last year, our UK and Ireland campaign generated £238 million increase in additional expenditure to the Welsh economy, up 36 % on the previous year."Initial results for this year’s campaign are already very promising, showing an 80% increase in unique visitors to visitwales.com during the first quarter of 2015.”

Figures from sites under the care of Cadw are also showing encouraging signs of growth for early 2015.Research has recently been carried out by Cadw to gain a better understanding of visitors to its sites during this shoulder season.The research has shown that 43% of shoulder season visitors are Welsh residents, compared with 24 % in the peak season.

The visitor survey also noted that a visit to a Cadw site often exceeds expectations, 66% visitors say their experience at a Cadw attraction was better than what they expected.http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/welsh-day-trip-spending-surges-9558635 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/welsh-day-trip-spending-surges-9558635)

That report does not ring true with what is being experienced in Llandudno.

However, I do agree that there are so many new attractions in N Wales, and these will be receiving new visitors, (and new money) to the detriment of Llandudno.

The beach in Colwyn Bay for example, was a masterstroke, and families would much rather spend a relaxing day there.The beach in Llandudno is now officially appalling.The Zip wire and various 'adventure' destinations are excellent, and are taking money never before spent in N Wales.The Haven holiday camps, and attractions in the Towyn area have never been busier.

Llandudno appears to be getting left behind in several respects.

What is new here? What is more attractive than it used to be?

I firmly believe that a spanking new leisure facility on the site of the Pier Pavilion is now pivotal to the town's regeneration as the premier tourist destination.

A takeover of that s**** Grand Hotel by a family friendly leisure company (eg Haven)With dedicated evening entertainment for families and a new complex built on the wreck next door for the daytime. $good$

Just a quick interjection to request members don't attempt to circumvent the censored words setting by using numbers. Using offensive language in here is not allowed as it's an open forum and children have free and unfettered access to it. This condition forms part of the membership agreement:

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You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any United Kingdom laws.

Also Ian, I don't think anyone should have free and unfettered access to Fester L0L

Ian, is there anything in the 'terms and conditions' that prevents us from using thinly-veiled or heavily disguised abuse or threats? Perhaps innuendo and ribaldry should be covered too!Because I have several waiting in the wings to unleash upon B2R!I suppose that's what Moderators get paid for though, so maybe I'll just go full steam ahead and let Dave and Ian earn their inflated salaries. :laugh: :laugh:

Ian/Steve.What you are witnessing is the mass EXODUS from Llandudno at 4pm, they wend there way slowly to the A55 by 5pm.

Below is a picture on Llandudno Pier at 5pm tonight....Please don't say the weather closed in and caused it, it was like this in blistering heat at 4pm!You will note that ALL shops were closed, but all were open until they lost the will to live, circa 4.30pm

Hi Fester, Those pictures say a lot, :( :( I have never disputed your numbers, and appreciate that there is a change happening, which you are seeing first hand,..... But you already know my thoughts on this ...........We can only hope that all those concerned get together and make a plan for the future, before we are left behind.

Hello Wrex. No, I am not a good barometer of tourist numbers. Reason being that, for a start, I am far too dependant on weather. The whole town could be heaving but rain and wind will put them all off golf up the Orme. But more importantly, I don't have sufficient footfall at any time to give a good assessment. If I have ten groups of average three people I have had a reasonably good day. If I have five, its poor. If I have 15 its excellent. So you will appreciate I might get a trend over several months, but not much else. Just out of interest, I am just about level pegging with last year

I disagree with this comment,llandudno needs its fair share of loons,we had plenty in the past,the pole,the Baptist I could go on but only if you were from Llandudno would you know them by their first names.there must have been at least a dozen in the 60s each one different the pole singing in polish at the top of his voice in the street which nobody understood,the Baptist reciting parts of the old testament as he walked along, the man pushing a dog along in a shopping trolley whos name escapes me but he stole my shirt whilst we were putting a new front on a shop halfway down madoc street the mad hatter had nothing on him he did not have a watch but had an alarm clock on a piece of string tied to the inside of his old mack,as I was sat in the car today in madoc street waiting for the wife the man with the monkey came out of the tattoo shop to have his photo taken with the shop owner and it brought back memories of past times.these people done no harm to no one. so BRING ON THE LOONS

I disagree with this comment,llandudno needs its fair share of loons,we had plenty in the past,the pole,the Baptist I could go on but only if you were from Llandudno would you know them by their first names.there must have been at least a dozen in the 60s each one different the pole singing in polish at the top of his voice in the street which nobody understood,the Baptist reciting parts of the old testament as he walked along, the man pushing a dog along in a shopping trolley whos name escapes me but he stole my shirt whilst we were putting a new front on a shop halfway down madoc street the mad hatter had nothing on him he did not have a watch but had an alarm clock on a piece of string tied to the inside of his old mack,as I was sat in the car today in madoc street waiting for the wife the man with the monkey came out of the tattoo shop to have his photo taken with the shop owner and it brought back memories of past times.these people done no harm to no one. so BRING ON THE LOONS

and there was another character collecting tin in hand at the punch and judy,TONY BURTON if you had worked a long hard week you would say ive worked more hours than TONY BURTON this week.he sold papers in the afternoon acted as pall bearer when required and would pick up furniture at ball and boyd and push it all around town on a handcart also delivered flyers for the shows in town and pasted the whats on on the local sandwich boards

and there was another character collecting tin in hand at the punch and judy,TONY BURTON if you had worked a long hard week you would say ive worked more hours than TONY BURTON this week.he sold papers in the afternoon acted as pall bearer when required and would pick up furniture at ball and boyd and push it all around town on a handcart also delivered flyers for the shows in town and pasted the whats on on the local sandwich boards

I remember Tony very well and as you say he worked all day long doing various jobs. I remember one evening meeting him by the North Western Hotel, as it was then and Tony was absolutely shattered but he still had a delivery to do in the Craig Y Don area. I could tell he was exhausted so I delivered it for him and he appreciated the gesture.. .

yes tony did sell papers outside woolworths,but I don't think the pitchs were exclusive,i think it was first up best dressed.they were also sold outside burtons and stylo.there were two papers sold in the afternoon the LIVERPOOL ECHO and the MANCHESTER EVENING NEWS,the papers came into town by rail and were picked up and taken to have local news printed in a column on the left.we used to sit in the back of a morris 1000 van with the rear doors open and speed around town street sellers first then the shops.it was great if you got your paper on the street first

I seem to remember that Tony Burton also worked "on the bins", as I can remember him carrying a dustbin on his back,(as they did in those days) wearing Hank Marvin specs and what looked like size 15 boots on! Another "character" from those days who also sold papers was Wally Garside aka "Wally Fag" who used to drive a motor scooter and sidecar and also used to wear a "Flook" costume advertising the cartoon character from the Daily Mail on various occasions. Hugo, very sorry to hear you have been ill recently, good to hear you are on the road to recovery now, and I echo your words on the NHS staff. When I had my hip replacement last year in Yspyti Gwynedd my treatment from the first consultation, preops, and the operation and subsequent therapy was absolutely first class.

Okay, so we have reached the 2nd weekend of July, and it's time to look again at this subject.

Glorious weather today, not too hot, not TOO windy, so I thought I would take a look around Llandudno.I spent 2 hours, (12.30 til 2.30pm)In the Victoria Shopping Centre, not much evidence of shopping, and place was pretty much deserted.I looked in the usually busy Greggs and Pound Bakery, and there was a few people, certainly not busy.Cafe Nero had a few in, but there were only a couple in the queue and plenty of empty tables.

So, I looked further up and the Carlton was busy outside, in fact not a seat to be had.

Had lunch in Kava, very nice indeed, and they were half full inside, and similar outside.

Went back down Mostyn St to see that things were certainly less than buzzing around M&S.Back through Victoria Centre, and was amazed how quiet it was.

Went to the Promenade, it seemed very busy.Lots of people on benches, many with tupperware boxes. far too many of them feeding seagulls!!

I went back to the Pier, and it seemed busy, footfall seemed high.... but that was the narrow bit near the Prom entrance.Walking back up the Pier, it was apparent that it was not busy.I asked a few of the traders, (with many more years experience than me) what they thought.The overwhelming message opinion was that it was unbelievably quiet, and had been all year!

By 5pm, all the gift shops were shut, including those who used to stay until 8pm as a minimum at this time of year.It's sad to see, and it was previously unheard of. This is July 10th!! :oHere is a picture taken at that time, note all the shops are shut, and the weather although overcast, was quite warm and still.

I have run summer seasonal businesses since 1962, i.e. over 50 years. Most of the time in Rhyl/Towyn but thats not much different to Llandudno for ups and downs of visitors. Depending on the calendar the 2nd and/or third week in July ALWAYS took a dip, and then full steam ahead for the big bang.

I had a late lunch today at Take a Break, 2.30pm very busy with full meals, steady stream coming and going, I took a walk up Upper Mostyn St. the ice cream parlour and new cafe were very busy, I get the impression if your selling food you are doing OK.I went to the Bay this morning along the prom, it seamed busy between Rhos and the bay, plenty heading for the beach, lots of cars, no doubt with their Tupperware! The kiosk's were full to the brim (more kiosk's?)Sorry F. I don't know what to say........

I have run summer seasonal businesses since 1962, i.e. over 50 years. Most of the time in Rhyl/Towyn but thats not much different to Llandudno for ups and downs of visitors. Depending on the calendar the 2nd and/or third week in July ALWAYS took a dip, and then full steam ahead for the big bang.

Fingers crossed then Mike. ££$ ££$But, deferring to those with much more experience than me, its pretty quiet.

Steve, I think the new beach in CB is most definitely contributing to the lower numbers in Llandudno.Don't forget, families can play there all day for free, and Llandudno's beach leaves much to be desired these days.Did you notice how easy it was to park today?

I agree Steve, food vendors are doing 'OK', but to be fair, at this time of year they should be RAKING IT IN, as they will still have their outgoings but very little income from October to March.

I walked down to Westshore later, both car parks and the road were packed.?

If you take the point that the new beach at CB is thinning the Llandudno trade, what about the other upcoming North Wales attractions , and there is a lot of talk about the regeneration of Rhyl some of it has already started. Llandudno I am pleased to say is not an area classed as needing "regeneration" but, it needs to find it's place in the market, and quick.And I am sorry to keep repeating myself, but unless Llandudno businesses get organised, they will not get the support from CCBC that they need for a successful future.Maybe the pier traders need to get together................

A major part of the problem for the pier is the change in young people's view of entertainment - basically they need to be entertained by some stimulus but not actually do something to entertain themselves. When I was on holiday in the 50s and 60s with my parents, a walk along the pier was part of the entertainment. In those days "promenade" was a not just a place but something you did. Recently I came across photos on the web of somewhere claimed to be Rhyl in the 40s - lots of well dressed people walking along a promenade. Walking was entertainment in those days. I remember also that my parents even into the 80s saw the end of Llandudno pier as the natural place to have their picnic lunch despite the seagulls.

W48, you make a brilliant point there, and one that escaped me until now.You see, a lot of things change subtly as you go through life, but the way kids conduct themselves, and what motivates them has changed quite markedly.

I often notice parents will have kids in tow, (very young children too), and a large percentage of those kids will have a smartphone or similar device which they are engrossed in.One of the parents is usually similarly engaged.I also hear the kids in the toy and joke shop referring to a product, not by what it does, or whether they want it, but by the fact some character on Family Guy or YouTube had one.

I suppose this need to entertain and motivate people extends further, (and is apparent in young adults too).For example, even if you are willing to entertain yourself and buy a football say, then it can't be just a regular football, it has to be the 'triple stitched, FIFA approved, extra-swerve ball, endorsed by Lionel Messi'

In mad rush to maximise profits, the Marketing folk who proliferate society these days, (in many guises), have made normality very boring.... and as W78 alludes to, made kids dis-satisfied with what we would have been very pleased with when we were kids.

How many of today's kids will be saying in 50 years time, 'Oh I remember fondly walking down the Pier with my Mum and Dad when I was a kid' Most of them probably didn't notice it, and many of them refer to it as 'a bridge'

We have only been on the pier once this year and that was to see the boat at the end of the pier, I have been on it so many times over the years that the novelty has gone, something really amazing needs to be there to get our interest, no idea what, everyone would want something different! I also think that back in the Sixties everyone was a lot fitter and dare I say slimmer, so walking to the end of the pier was a regular thing to do back then. I do not recall seeing so many wheel chairs and mobility scooters years ago?

A major part of the problem for the pier is the change in young people's view of entertainment - basically they need to be entertained by some stimulus but not actually do something to entertain themselves.

I'm not sure that's a new thing, to be honest. A cultural thing, perhaps, but not new. When you say "When I was on holiday in the 50s and 60s with my parents, a walk along the pier was part of the entertainment." I agree it was for you (and for me) but not for all children by a very long way. Many children in the '50s and '60s were 'latch-key kids; children who left the house after breakfast and weren't home again until 5 or 6pm. In the cities football was the indigenous sport and many kids spent entire days and evenings (in the summer) on the streets, unsupervised and looking for things to amuse themselves. Inevitably, their idea of amusement usually wasn't that of the adults' around, and so conflict ensued.

We think children have changed but I suspect the only real change in their amusement opportunities has been in the increasingly portable nature of their entertainment. They no longer need to queue to buy records, as they did in the '50s, as they can happily carry around the electronic equivalent of a thousand records on their 'phones. Wherever they go they have access to their music and the board games which so occupied us as kids are now in electronic form.

But there is another, and I suspect more worrying mutation, and that's the paradoxical nature of 21st Century socialisation. Kids are able to conduct conversations remotely, now, and that is very new. The child fiddling with his 'phone is almost certainly not playing a game but communicating with people all over the place, some of whom he may never have met.

There have been a lot of studies into this cultural phenomenon, because its pervasive and often secretive nature concerns a lot of parents. But children do it for many reasons, one of the most compelling of which is that it makes them feel part of a group. They feel valued and as though they matter and - often - these feelings compensate for what they might be experiencing in their own families.

Parents have the biggest part to play in making children feel valued, but some parents are clueless, or might be suffering the same problems themselves. No easy answers, but not really any new problems, either. It's just very important to make kids aware they're loved. Those unloved kids with low self esteem are all too often the mothers and fathers of tomorrow. And that's another subject...

I do not recall seeing so many wheel chairs and mobility scooters years ago?

I wonder. Years ago the mobility scooters weren't widely available, people weren't living as long and the physically disabled were often institutionalised. The disability advocacy groups have fought for years to get disabled wheelchair users accepted in mainstream society and now mobility scooters are ubiquitous. But some of us still walk five miles every day over the mountains, so we're still keeping fit!

But there is another, and I suspect more worrying mutation, and that's the paradoxical nature of 21st Century socialisation. Kids are able to conduct conversations remotely, now, and that is very new. The child fiddling with his 'phone is almost certainly not playing a game but communicating with people all over the place, some of whom he may never have met.

A recent poll conducted found that a large majority of younger children, would rather use their phone than watch TV.

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Parents have the biggest part to play in making children feel valued, but some parents are clueless, or might be suffering the same problems themselves. No easy answers, but not really any new problems, either. It's just very important to make kids aware they're loved. Those unloved kids with low self esteem are all too often the mothers and fathers of tomorrow. And that's another subject..

I witnessed this scene two days ago, whilst sitting in a cafe.........two women talking over coffee. engrossed to say the least, ignoring a two year old boy trying to get his mothers attention, he tried for about 10min's without even a glance from his mum, I thought poor little s** .......... then he said "I need a wee, need toilet" 2 or 3 times before she said. "it's OK go ahead you have your nappy on" ............... :o esteem, no chance.

Mrs. Gwynant and I walked back home after yet another excellent meal in La Taverna at about 11 pm last night and we thought it was considerably quieter in the Upper Mostyn Street bar/restaurant area than when we were last up there in May, which would seem to confirm Fester's opinion and recent "footfall" observations.

I find that many children today don't know the meaning of No or Be quiet ! We get a lot of families parking near us to take their children to the Play Centre and if these little souls don't get what they want immediately they shout over and over again until either the poor parent is free or gives in to their demands.

The phrase " ger'ere" is often used, or other more choice phrases, meanwhile the child is running in the road or prostrate on the pavement.

Help! What comes next? A mangled child or one flat out in whatever happens to be on the pavement?

Thanks Gwynant,Mrs F was out with a friend in town last night, and I drove down to collect her at 11pm.Usually, on nights like that it is tricky to drive down Upper Mostyn St as hordes of folk mill around and are crossing between the pubs.But, on a warm and still evening, there was no problem last night. Quite a few outside Cooney's, but all the others looked quiet.

I spoke to the Manageress of one of the better places down that strip, and they said that they are getting by on locals and regulars, but they are not seeing the numbers of out of town visitors this year.That is in accord with what we are seeing on the Pier.

On the Pier there was always a mad busy 2 hours, 1pm til 3pm (approximately), from the day trippers, and then a lull.Those staying longer, or in hotels would then spend money after 5pm, rather than carry things around all day.Now, the 1pm to 3pm surge has gone, and I mean literally gone... (unless perhaps you are offering food or ice cream)

By 4.30pm, the Pier is basically deserted, and even though I hang around til 6pm, no one ever asks why everything is closed.

Now, based on Mike's vast experience, I am going to wait and see what happens next week. I am hopeful of an upturn, although what has gone will not come back.It is possible that the 'season' is simply getting more compressed into a shorter spell. I have evidence from previous years sales graphs that shows that is the case anyway. Possibly it is just more dramatic and pronounced this year? Time will tell.

See what you mean Fester, nice to see you and Mrs F again, but when I left you I noticed that the prom was quiet to what it can be. Large gaps between people!Hope things pick up !

Nice to see you too Nem!It might pick up, who knows.But by 4pm the shop opposite me, and 2 of the four further up had given up and gone. Very strange to see.I'm still here, and will stay til 6pm or so.... but I fear I am more ornament than use! :laugh: :laugh:

Lets be honest,CCBC are not helping,god help us if they turn the Grand hotel into the new Rothesay,we will have drugies trying to swim in the waterfeature in the happy valley and then they will have to fill it.This rabbit statue is bizzar,i thought Mr Gorka could not open the tram stop on highway issues yet they encourage kids to cross the road to see the statue,double standards or what and the main reason upper Mostyn st is quiet is there is no light life for our youngsters and definately nothing for the yougsters of Colwyn Bay,LLanwrst,,Penmaenmawr so they all kkkkkkknow go to Bangor,our pubs loss,but who cares.

By 5pm, all the gift shops were shut, including those who used to stay until 8pm as a minimum at this time of year.It's sad to see, and it was previously unheard of. This is July 10th!! :o

I know i can't win this argument with you Fester, as my previous post in this thread also got skipped over and after all i'm only a visitor.... but bollocks did people stay open til 8pm!!! Not since the 90s mate. I have been in LL for the first 2 weeks of july pretty much my entire life, and most days or teatimes trot down the pier, as my last post said most pack up by 4pm and if the weather is good they last til towards 6 but not many. None in the bottom half of the pier were open til 8. But you'll disagree, and everyone will side with you ;) So i'll be off! Btw, nice sunny day last week - you weren't even open til past 11am, naughty ;) There was a massive queue of people at your hut that then went elsewehere :laugh: Ok i'm kidding about the people.. but still... ;D

Occupancy rates in hotels, guesthouses, bed and breakfasts and self-catering units have risen in the first five months of the year. The Wales Occupancy Survey figures showed hotels had the smallest rise with 61% of rooms being filled compared to 60% over the same period in 2014.

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But you'll disagree, and everyone will side with you

Not everyone, Pebbles. Many agree with your assessment and every scrap of objective research confirms it. In fact, I'd argue that it's specifically the pier where there may well be a drop off in trade, and that could be for a variety of reasons. But dredging up my own memories of childhood I can remember just how silent the town became after about 6.00pm.

Fester,from knowing and speaking to many people who have varied businesses in Llandudno from multiple outlets to one man operations many say exactly what you have been writing here.Even the manager of one of the largest delivered wholesalers in the country who again supplies hotels, shop and cafes agrees with your synopsis of current trading not just in the town of Llandudno but the whole of the county, trade is not what it was nor should be.As for the pier it is nonsense to say Llandudno pier has always been quiet of an evening, there were times when the pier was packed out of an evening with many of the kiosks doing a brisk trade in many of their wares.There is no doubt in my mind that people want a lot more for less, hence the smart looking pound shops and the likes of Home Bargains being so successful, a great range of lines with many attracted to the stores.Ask many of the established hoteliers in the town how they are having to struggle with room rates that are in real terms below what they were achieving some years back.The same applies, if not worse for the hotels who rely on coaches, many operators want more for less such as all inclusive deals on drinks and a full entertainment programme and extended credit and the right to cancel a coach at short notice if they can't fill the coach!factor in the new living wage, work based pensions and the postponed business rate view you can see why many like Fester are considering putting their feet up for a rest.As ever there are still opportunities for many to make a fair profit but the good old days have been on the wane for many a year.The one thing no one has control over is the weather, the weather has the power to make or break a good Summer season and like King Canute we have no control over mother nature!

As for the pier it is nonsense to say Llandudno pier has always been quiet of an evening, there were times when the pier was packed out of an evening with many of the kiosks doing a brisk trade in many of their wares.

I remember that too, very happy memories - my point was though that apart from weekends in school holidays it has mostly not happened from about 2000 onwards :(

These days, everyone wants a bargain, so when they look in shops, they can go on their smart phones and compare prices. As for pound shops it is known that a lot is not as cheap as some folk think, smaller sizes especially seem to be the case with some items! We had a drive around Llandudno this afternoon, lots of people (and scooters!) around, I would derived if they were spending much?

An interesting BBC investigation, trying to lift the lid on illegal Charedi schools, the narrow type of education they offer and the fact they are registered as charities as a tax advantage!http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35928801 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35928801)

'Llandudno pier is ok for a walk, but the only problem with it is the arcades and the other things that require money'.

A Trip Advisor review from today,If you leave aside the fact that as a private business, it HAS to make money, this is another indication of the pervading culture that everything has to be free!Another lady was boasting earlier today that her family had been here all day, had a fantastic time all around Llandudno, and it had cost them NOTHING except the £3 parking fee!

'Llandudno pier is ok for a walk, but the only problem with it is the arcades and the other things that require money'. A Trip Advisor review from today,If you leave aside the fact that as a private business, it HAS to make money, this is another indication of the pervading culture that everything has to be free!Another lady was boasting earlier today that her family had been here all day, had a fantastic time all around Llandudno, and it had cost them NOTHING except the £3 parking fee!

That last comment is putting the boot in... &shake&

I had a quick look on Trip Adviser, the first thing I saw was the ad. to "book a trip for £9" it gives the impression of an entrance fee, I found this misleading and wondered if it was just me?

Btw, the author noticed all the empty kiosks currently on the pier. :o

Ha! Very observant, nobody else has!I had a regular online customer this morning who attached a message saying 'Hi Peter, we popped on to the pier this weekend and were surprised to see your shop all closed up, why would that be?'

The answer to that lies in the fact that they are a 'regular online customer'

I was just reading about Llandudno on a website compiled by and photographed by the late Noel Whalley and in it Noel had this to say about Llandudno's North Shore beach:-

Donkey and Pony Rides have been popular on Llandudno’s sandy beach for over 125 years and continue to appeal to the children of all ages. They were introduced by Elizabeth Hughes (the Donkey Lady) and her family continue the tradition with others to the present day.At Llandudno there are usually donkey rides available on the immaculate north beach on all sunny summer days, subject to the tide tables.

I've just read the August edition of the North Wales magazine and it's very interesting magazine and better still it's free. Among the many interesting features is the listing of the 10 best beaches in North Wales and Llandudno's North Shore beach is listed there at No 8It's always nice to see photos of the town but the description of the beach is disturbing. How on earth were CCBC allowed to do this?

That's an interesting question. Since I was a toddler I remember that the North shore always attracted the crowds. Possibly there were more attractions; boat trips, the pier, deckchairs, the lifeboat, hotel proximity and less wind for most of the time. Locals, however, often went to West shore, which was inevitably quieter but almost always breezier.

An application has gone in to CCBC for 3 exterior loudspeakers and 2 outdoor surveillance cameras to be attached to the front facade at Dylan's Llandudno. Now I can understand the surveillance cameras, but I'm a bit worried as to the reason behind the exterior loudspeakers ??? What does everyone else think?

An application has gone in to CCBC for 3 exterior loudspeakers and 2 outdoor surveillance cameras to be attached to the front facade at Dylan's Llandudno. Now I can understand the surveillance cameras, but I'm a bit worried as to the reason behind the exterior loudspeakers ??? What does everyone else think?

Hopefully they are planning to put on some raves in the early hours of the morning. Should prove very popular with the young folk $good$

An application has gone in to CCBC for 3 exterior loudspeakers and 2 outdoor surveillance cameras to be attached to the front facade at Dylan's Llandudno. Now I can understand the surveillance cameras, but I'm a bit worried as to the reason behind the exterior loudspeakers ??? What does everyone else think?

Hopefully they are planning to put on some raves in the early hours of the morning. Should prove very popular with the young folk $good$

Sorry to resurrect this controversial topic, but based on my observations this last few days, I couldn’t help myself.I can’t help wonder what the visitors to the town are going to make of it in 2018?The stretch of Mostyn St which used to house M&S Menswear and Greenwood’s looks terrible now.That’s prime retail space and there are no signs of anything being proposed to replace those great traditional businesses.Worse is to come when M&S main outlet disappears from the high street.Clonmel St and St George’s Place, despite being central to Llandudno, now have glaring gaps as failed businesses have vacated property. Little or nothing to see or spend money on there.The Pier had a much reduced number of shops in 2017, and several kiosks were left empty all year. In 2018 I am aware of several others who will not be returning.The Pier gates on Happy Valley Rd are permanently closed, awaiting major structural improvements to the pier steelwork, which to date has no schedule to begin. So, parking on HV road is a waste of time and money now. In addition, the fishing tackle shop is also closed down.They may not get done at all if Mr Waldron goes ahead with his Pavilion development, Mr Williams had made that absolutely clear.There may be a colossal building site to contend with for more than a year there.It’s half term now, and the weather was OK at the weekend, (I’ve worked in far worse), but not a single shop on the seaward end of the pier was open, and only a couple at the landward end. It used to be a busy fortnight, weather permitting, and would kickstart the new season.

Returning to Mostyn Street, it’s an inescapable fact that there are more homeless people sleeping in the shop doorways than ever before. It’s a tragedy I know, and it’s a national problem, but it’s not a ‘good look’ for visitors to see.Almost every cashpoint in town also has a beggar or homeless person beside it, for obvious reasons. The number of buskers, mostly of an appalling standard, has increased greatly. Many of these are just begging in a different guise.From 5pm onwards, it’s embarrassing to try and have a walk around town, let alone a peaceful night out.

I’m not saying that visitors won’t come this year, I’m simply saying that their experience will be not as they remember it. Will they want to return in anywhere like similar numbers?

I was just about to ask if anyone knew why the gates to the pier on Happy Valley are permanently locked, so thanks for that info Fester. When Mr M was recovering from an illness we would park our car in the disabled bays nearby and have a short walk on the pier, ideal as there are so many seats to sit on when he became breathless. What's the point in having these parking bays when to get to anything it's too far to walk now. &shake&

I was just about to ask if anyone knew why the gates to the pier on Happy Valley are permanently locked, so thanks for that info Fester. When Mr M was recovering from an illness we would park our car in the disabled bays nearby and have a short walk on the pier, ideal as there are so many seats to sit on when he became breathless. What's the point in having these parking bays when to get to anything it's too far to walk now. &shake&

There’s also the expense of everything.The rides on the pier had gone up alarmingly last year, as did the food and drink.Trip Advisor was replete with complaints about both.I’ve noticed new signage on the Pier burger shop, prices have increased yet again.

In the King's Head last night, my wife and I were charged £10.20p for 2 drinks, which are usually £8.60 in the Snooze.But, in most towns and cities they would be around £6.00

from Fester « Reply #7896 on: November 19, 2017, 10:59:27 PM »QuoteIt was pretty busy from 1pm til 4pm when we were at the Xmas Fayre... but never rammed.I have several thoughts on the admission fee.£2.50 is simply wrong, I have never been charged admission to any Xmas market in Europe, never mind the UK. If they MUST charge, then I think £1 is fair.... but I still have to wonder why.Many of the more niche stalls were very quiet, many of the traders were sat looking bored and playing on their phones. Yet they were paying £1000 for the 4 day pitch. Not viable.The food stalls were very busy indeed, and that is a theme which is seen in the high street these days. More coffee shops, more cafes are opening... but shops that sell ‘things’ are struggling and closing down.

If the organisers are using the Live Entertainment as a justification for the charge (and I noted on Facebook that they are), then that is a gross misrepresentation.The vast majority of the ‘acts’ on the inside marquee were simply schools and school choirs.I watched two sessions of line dancing pensioners, and they were so bad they were hilarious. They were having fun (I think?) but they were terrible.Line dancing is a hobby, please don’t pass it off as entertainment... and please don’t pretend that they are being paid a lot of money to perform.

That said, the Xmas Fayre was the best one I’ve been to in Llandudno and we spent about £70 on the usual cheeses, bits to eat etc... but it is not anywhere near the size or quality of the Leeds, Manchester or Lincoln ones... and they are FREE to get into.

The prize for the cleverest entrepreneur goes to the lady who runs the Upper Crust cafe on Madoc St.She pitched a gazebo outside the event (thereby not paying rent) and charged £4.50 for roast pork sandwiches, which were SIX POUNDS only 20 feet away inside the event. She was RAKING it in.

LLANDUDNO Christmas Fayre is set to expand along with its entry fees.

Ticket prices have increased from £2.50 to £4.50 this year to accommodate the "expanding" Christmas market. Although, early bird tickets can be purchased for £3.75 before the end of the month.

Llandudno Christmas Fayre organiser, Barry Mortlock, said the increase in entry fees was "not to make money" but to make sure the event was able to continue.

Speaking to the Pioneer, Mr Mortlock said: "The key things about the entry fee of £4.50 is only to cover our costs. If we have 20,000 people again, like last year, we'll be alright."But we can't do this without the funding. We are not trying to make money.

The Llandudno Christmas Fayre will run from November 15 to 18. The Fayre will be open from 10am until 6pm on Thursday, 9.30am to 7pm on Friday and Saturday, and 9.30am to 4.30pm on Sunday.

Llandudno Christmas Fayre boycott threat as entry fee nearly doublesLocals are furious that the price has been hiked for the second year running.

The organisers of a popular Christmas fair have defended charging nearly double the entry fee for this year’s event after a furious reaction on social media. ( FB "you know you are from Llandudno" 160 comments)

Eyebrows have been raised as tickets for the event taking place in November have shot up from £2.50 to £4.50. Children under 16 are free.Before last year the majority of the Christmas Fayre was free, with a small charge to enter a marquee area.

The decision to introduce fees last year caused a similar backlash.Many people have taken to social media to express their dismay, with some pointing out most Christmas fairs across the UK are free to enter.

MORE Link (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/llandudno-christmas-fayre-boycott-threat-15226540)

The fayre is causing controversy again this year, (see past comments) ..... I passed today and noticed quite a few people wearing volunteer vests, I am assuming that means unpaid ?, also in the article it mentions schoolchildren singing (no fee), but the parents have to pay to see them perform, I know of other groups who were asked to perform, free of charge, who declined, this is private enterprise, but their PR is extremely poor......... and I believe CCBC contribute to the Fayre. ?

Why Christmas Fayre has left Llandudno businesses feeling far from festiveSome business owners claiming they will lose thousands in takings over the four-day Llandudno Fayre.

The fayre opened today occupying a large part in the centre of the Victorian seaside resort, including Trinity Square and Augusta Street. Madoc Street has been reduced to a one way system, upsetting many of the traders that line the road.

Organisers said they expected the number of visitors to the town would reap benefits for local traders.

But Gareth Mottershead, who owns Games N Gear on Madoc Street, said: "Last year we lost around £1,000 in takings, and this week we've been closing early as the street has been so quiet.

"The organisers turn the street into a one way traffic system on Tuesday, and it's not turned back to normal until next Tuesday."Mr Mottershead continued: "There's a new game out this week and we'd normally be packed out, but it has been dead."Usually you can't get a parking spot on Madoc Street but today there's hardly anyone."

Llandudno Christmas Fayre drew 35,000 visitors last year. ?

He added: "When the fayre was along Madoc Street it would be disruptive for us but we'd be really busy, so none of us minded it but now it doesn't benefit us at all."

His feelings were echoed by Ann-Marie Warren of Promise Arts and Crafts, also to be found on Madoc Street.She said: "Our street normally sees a high volume of cars parked here as restrictions are 90 minutes free parking and so there is a daily turn around of visitors, but at the moment it's scarily quiet."We lost £800 in takings last year and I can prove it."

Ms Warren continued: "I just don't see how this market helps many local businesses, when the stall-holders are mostly from away."They are charging people £4.50 to get into the market, how is that right?"

Many parents whose children are performing on the stage during the weekend, have taken to social media to complain they have to pay the entry fee to watch their children.One parent, who didn't wish to be named, said: "It will cost £9 for me and my partner to go and watch our little one sing, we can't afford it so have asked my friend to video her instead."It's really embarrassing, but at this time of year £9 is a lot for us."

Eileen Burrows, an event director of Llandudno Fayre, said: "There is access to Madoc Street and over the weekend our volunteers will be directing people to there, I'm sure the stall holders will see the benefits during the weekend when the Fayre is in full swing."

Mrs Burrows added: "I have received one complaint from a parent about the entry charge, and for next year we will look into this, perhaps not charging an entry fee if the child is on free school meals.

"But the schools when they agreed for their pupils to perform on the stage, were fully aware of the charges, and they can take buckets with them to raise money for their school." REF DP

I find the entire thing very odd. The Christmas fayre / Market has, suspect, started to lose its appeal overall, not simply in Llandudno. Where it continues to be successful, in places like Manchester, Berlin and London there's no charge whatsoever and Llandudno can't possible compete with places like that on space alone.

I presume the thinking by CCBC is that it will bring people into town but I can't see how, if they're charging £4.50 pp.

I would like to see the accounts to find out how much they take of the stall holders and the public and what their outgoings are, they don't seem to publish the accounts so I am going to ask under the freedom of information act. let's see if they respond.

My family & I were in Wales for the week & we always spend a day in Llandudno as we love the Place, we were in Llandudno on Thursday 15th Nov, the day the Christmas Fayre opened so we thought we'd have a good day, how wrong we were, first of all we couldn't believe you had to pay just to go in, then when they told us how much it was £4-50 each person. ( DISGUSTING ) We've been to quite a few Christmas Fayres up & down the Country & they've all been FREE. We Certainly won't be coming to Llandudno's Christmas Fayre & if other people have any sense then they won't either.

If DP were any kind of real newspaper they would find out the truth. The council say it is an independent group that run the fair, yet allegedly 4 councillors are part of the group. Seems a money in pocket exercise to me.

There are two councillors and two reserve councillors (whatever that means) on the board of the group. They are however Llandudno Town councillors and not Conwy County councillors so they’re just a bunch of powerless busybodies. Having said that I can’t see a problem with Llandudno Town Council linking in with a group called the Llandudno Development Partnership, if would be a bit strange if they didn’t.

There is no way I am paying £4.50 to look round some stalls when I can go to the Manchester Fayre, which is much larger, for free. I tried to get into the town this afternoon to the other shops and couldn't find anywhere to park so gave up. The local businesses are suffering as people will stay away during the fayre. And to ask parents to have to pay to see their own children perform is ridiculous!!!! This is so damaging for the reputation of Llandudno.

It seems that Llandudno Development Partnership is a fairly secretive organisation. George Newson appears to be the person who started it all, in conjunction with 'local businesses people and Mostyn Estates'.

Working in Partnership:Llandudno Town Council works in partnership with Conwy County Borough Council and others on many projects to benefit the town. These include Playscheme provision, Play areas, provision of Bus Shelters, Litter Bins and Street Furniture, the Alice Trail, lighting in Happy Valley area, Llandudno Swimming Pool, and CCTV). The Town Council also represents the local area as a consultee on many matters, including Planning and Development. It also represents the local Community on various organisations including the North Wales Association of Town & Larger Community Councils, Llandudno Promenade Consultative Group, Llandudno Development Partnership, Llandudno Flood Partnership Group and various Community organisations.

And the official list of annual events, not including the Fayre, so why is the council involved in this apparent private, for profit making enterprise. • Christmas Parade• Fireworks• Llandudno in Bloom competition• Miss Alice competition• RHS Wales in Bloom competition• Christmas Lights• Town Twinning events• Summer and Winter Decorative Lighting• Hanging Basket Scheme

PS just found this answer to a FOI request.

Dear Sir/Madam,Thank you for your email.The Llandudno Christmas Fayre is not organised by the Town Council but by an independent body.They have an official website, including contact details, and you may wish to contact them directly.The Town Council has not received any correspondence addressed to it in respect of the Fayre.

Went to a couple of shops in Madoc Street earlier today (Sat). It was very, very quiet and plenty of car parking spaces - even though a warden was diligently checking all the cars. It seems very unfair that this event causes losses of income to local businesses who are here all year round and employ local people. I heard one woman tell a shop keeper that she would not be going there but to the one in Chester as it was free.

It would appear the increased cost, has not put people off................I heard this morning about a couple of coach parties, who decided to wander around town, rather than pay £4.50, ..........now a friend returning from town, says it is mobbed :),......and long queues around Trinity square, waiting to get in. ??? I also noticed the parking around Westshore is similar to bank holiday type events.

It,s a holiday resort! The amount of people in hotels is the most important statistic. People from inland cities are attracted by Xmas Market in Llandudno, nobody comes here to do any serious shopping, chill out it’s only for a few days.I have no connection with hotels or shops.

Yep; that's a possibility. However, if a significant umber of those staying in the hotels specifically for the Xmas market then feel ripped off, it could do the image of the resort quite a bit of damage. This is bigger than simply a few tents and a lot of overcharging.

i support the xmas fayre being in town and yesterday many where raking it in but i think they have shot themselves in the foot with this greedy £4.50 fee,locals have given it a miss so surely get more rent in from stallholders who would then have more customers

I went - and bought ten slices of cheese for a tenner and 3 xmas eve boxes for a fiver.Pretty good value all in all - however if I would have had to pay £4.50 to get in it wouldn't really have been good value at all. Apart from shopping the only thing to do other than shop is walk around listening to Wizzard on their tinny speakers and a load of out of tune kids singing in the tent.

Conwy food festival is a million times better and I hope the Conwy Christmas fair on the 20th December is better as well, can't be much worse!

I wonder what the connection is between the Llandudno Development Parrnership and the Llandudno Christmas Fayre Community Interest Company?https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10470030

Community Interest Company.A non-charitable company can still be a not-for-profit organisation: many social enterprises are non-charitable companies. If your organisation is not charitable, you can guarantee your not-for-profit status by becoming a Community Interest Company (CIC). CICs commit their assets and profits permanently to the community by means of an “asset lock”, ensuring that assets are used for the benefit of the community. CICs can have paid directors.

I went - and bought ten slices of cheese for a tenner and 3 xmas eve boxes for a fiver.Pretty good value all in all - however if I would have had to pay £4.50 to get in it wouldn't really have been good value at all. Apart from shopping the only thing to do other than shop is walk around listening to Wizzard on their tinny speakers and a load of out of tune kids singing in the tent.

Conwy food festival is a million times better and I hope the Conwy Christmas fair on the 20th December is better as well, can't be much worse!

We got in free as we were doing something for a charity - This was about 6.30pm on the Friday - was moderately busy, not packed. The out of tune kids stopped singing about 7.30 and all the stalls closed, seemed a bit early to me. To be fair an hour there was more than enough, can't see many people staying much longer than that.

There is a definite divided opinion, over The Llandudno Xmas Fayre, those who gave good revues, and those who believed it to be overpriced and boring, my own opinion is, I wish it were one thing or another, privately run or council, and not a C.I.C. this Fayre could do a lot of good for llandudno if handled correctly.

Despite the decrease in numbers event organiser Barry Mortlock said the event had gone really well and the fayre was “just about perfect”, revealing the ticket price of £4.50 was here to stay. :o :o

But Mr Mortlock said there would be no more price increases on tickets over the next few years, just simply staying as is to cover the costs of the event.He said: “We believe we have created an event that we can be proud of.“It looks good for the town as well.“I stood there looking at the event everyday and thought to myself there is not much more we can tweak, I am proud of what we have created.“It was a really really good event, and we put out questionnaires throughout the course of the weekend and we got back some really positive feedback.”

The event proved popular as queues formed down Mostyn Street to get in and around the Arriva Bus Santa’s grotto to get in.

The wide variety of stalls, entertainment and exhibitions was on show across the four days in and around Trinity Square, a new look set up for the fayre in recent years, showcasing a range of locally based businesses and talent.

Llandudno hospitality association chairperson, Berin Jones, said it was great to see Llandudno so busy over the weekend with the fayre bringing in extra visitors to the area.Mr Jones said: “This event is seen as the starting point where the town starts turning itself on for Christmas.“It is always lovely here at Christmas time and the Fayre kicks off the festive season.“It was a good busy weekend though, and the weather helped make that happen.”

Readers took to social media to give their verdict on the Christmas Fayre and its new entrance fee price.

While Cat Rogers, on the Llandudno Christmas Fayre’s Facebook page, wrote: “This event is organised every year by private organisers and every year they surpass themselves and make it bigger and better, no one’s pockets are being lined by the entrance fee.

“The entrance fee goes back into everything you see in the fair, church fees, entertainment, wages, electric, cost of cabins and marquee’s not to mention the business and people it brings to our beautiful town, helps out local shops and hotels.

“If you have a problem with the cost maybe you should bring it up with the council for not providing a free fayre and stop moaning and bad mouthing people who work tirelessly to start off Christmas in our little town.” ref Pioneer

Llandudno Christmas Fayre organisers on why they charge and how they don't make any moneyThe event came under fire over 'ridiculous' admission charges. ref DP

Under-fire organisers of Llandudno's Christmas Fayre today defended the controversial entry fee and insisted they were making no money from the four-day street event.Dozens of people blasted the 'ridiculous' admission charges which increased from £2.50 to £4.50 this year.

But volunteers from the Community Interest Company (CIC) that runs the event said they had no choice but to charge after losing financial support from local authorities.And they said any profit from the Fayre is pumped back into the event which has been operating for 15 years - but has been run by the CIC for the last two.

Detailing their accounts to the Daily Post, organisers revealed more than 90% of their income came from ticket sales (£72,000) and stall holders fees (£70,000). The remainder came from Welsh Assembly grants (£5,000) and sponsorship (£8,250).

Llandudno Christmas Fayre event costs: Operational contractors (£32,000) :oTents, marquees and cabins (£31,700) :oSecurity (£18,000)Electricity and generators (£16,000) :o Ground rental (£4,000)Stage Hire (£6,000)Entertainment (£3,000)Road closure licences (£6,000)Marketing, social media, printing and brochures (£13,000)Casual labour (£6,000)Insurance and other costs (£13,000)Volunteer CIC director and treasurer Mike Thompson said: "Our model includes charging for entry or we could not hold the event. The event was on the verge of closing forever after the 2016 Fayre following a few years of losses.

"The only way to ensure that the event could be held in 2017 was to introduce an entry fee for adults."Many people would want it to be free. If we could achieve that we would. If we could pick up a big grant then we would drop ticket prices.

"With the financial difficulties currently being faced by councils around the country, we feel that it is another way to support the local community. Only those who choose to visit the Fayre need to pay to enter so Conwy taxpayers do not contribute towards the event.

"We felt this model was a fairer way to approach it.

"As a community business we need the support of the community otherwise we don't have a future.

"Last year we had a £2,000 surplus and this year it will be around £6,000. All that money is reinvested. We are always looking at more entertainment rather than just being a market. Last year we had 10 pages of ideas and we are considering introducing a 2-day pass."

The number of paying customers was down this year from 24,000 in 2017 to around 17,600. Up to 5,000 people, mainly children, were given free entry and more than 2,000 people performed on the stage.

There was also 140 stallholders and and Saturday performances were dedicated to the Welsh language.

While many continental Christmas markets are free to enter, organisers were keen to point out their admission charges compared favourably to other similar events.

The CIC employs two local contractors to organise and manage the Fayre.

CIC chairwoman Diane Lea said: "The whole board is voluntary. We would like to involve more local people - for example we need a marketing volunteer."She added the event supports local charities including Ty Gobaith children's hospice which made £3,500 from last year's Fayre.This year's event occupied a large part of the resort's centre including Trinity Square and Augusta Street.

And a readers comment.

"I thought my energy suppliers were rip off merchants but four grand a day to power a couple of marquees and a few wooden huts? Someone saw them coming a mile off! And who are these “operational contractors” who are charging eight large a day for their services? These figures raise more questions than answers."

The old Bryant & Hocknell building has had the go ahead to be demolished and a four story block of apartments for Social Affordable Housing will be built in it's place, but only if the parking problem can be solved. Roads & Highways asked for the Planning Committee to refuse the application on grounds that the proposed parking in the basement was a flood risk.

Roads & Highways asked for the Planning Committee to refuse the application on grounds that the proposed parking in the basement was a flood risk.

Such a pity they didn't recommend the same advice over the Pier Pavilion development, as I have seen with my own eyes, the vast amount of rain water that can and does flood down North Parade / Church Walks, during Summer Thunder storms. The current Victorian drains would certainly be unable to cope, so I hope Mr W has made provision to install the very best pumping system in his underground car park. :'(

Blongb I have mentioned on a few sites having worked on the pier early 70s our canteen/ workshop was under there it used to flood on high/ Spring tides so we couldn't get down there so how they are going to stop the sea God knows.

Sorry I’ve been absent for so long guys, had much to deal with this last few months.I just wanted to say, that I don’t see any great rush by Mr Waldron to get on with building anything.So much time and expense over the land purchase and planning, then so little urgency to crack on with the project. Not even doing the groundworks or clearance during these quiet months.It certainly doesn’t add up to me.

The old Bryant & Hocknell building has had the go ahead to be demolished and a four story block of apartments for Social Affordable Housing will be built in it's place, but only if the parking problem can be solved. Roads & Highways asked for the Planning Committee to refuse the application on grounds that the proposed parking in the basement was a flood risk.

Maybe Mr Waldron hasn't got the backers to fund this project,looking at his profile he hasn't surely got the money to fund it, as someone mentioned we could well see that hole getting sold on again.

He's still got one of his Glan Conwy boxes to sell at £595,000 so perhaps cash flow is a problem, plus its my understanding he has still got to come up with the money to do the Highways alterations to North Parade before any work on the site can proceed

Sorry I’ve been absent for so long guys, had much to deal with this last few months.I just wanted to say, that I don’t see any great rush by Mr Waldron to get on with building anything.So much time and expense over the land purchase and planning, then so little urgency to crack on with the project. Not even doing the groundworks or clearance during these quiet months.It certainly doesn’t add up to me.

There are something like 22 conditions on the planning consent document, at least half of which have to be complied with before ANY work can start. To date none of the conditions are met...any reports aiming to demonstrate compliance will be put up on the planning portal.

Rumour has it that Waldron hasn’t got funding in place to progress...but that is just a rumour I was told.

I have a feeling nothing will happen on this site for a long time to come. The building cost will be huge, consequently the apartments will be hugely expensive. In the current climate I can't see it going ahead. If I had megabucks I wouldn't want to buy an apartment overlooking the pier below with the constant playing of 1950's pop music, the smell of candy floss and donuts wafting over my sea view balcony. The sounds of the amusement arcade almost as irritating as having my pre dinner drinks and nibbles raided by the gulls. The only way that I can see the plan developing is if they manage to buy the pier and then who knows what. That would be a very dark day for Llandudno's tourism in my opinion.

The work on maesdu is to do with welsh water, it's part of the works comming down Llanrhos , the planning for the telecom item they erected a big grey mast and big green box even put crash barriers up the people in the houses opp complained next thing it was all gone woosh, amazing what clout a bit of money can get sorted.😅

The excavations on the golf course are to create a storage lagoon for roof, yard and highway surface water from the catchment up to Plas Mariandir. Currently this discharges into a culvert under the road and thence via a stream through the golf course. The stream discharges into the railway drain which itself flows into the town's sewerage system through a connection under Maesdu Bridge. The lagoon will store the water in times of excessive rainfall and it will gradually be released into the stream at an acceptable rate to avoid causing overloading of the sewerage system downstream.

I am not sure what all the yellow barriers are around the area and up Bryn Gosol Road nor why there seems to be traffic signals in operation when the road seems not obstructed. I think they belong to contractors for another utility.

]BBC Wales' news is reporting (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49030675)that "a century ago, there were 6,000 Jewish people in Wales, with the figure now in the hundreds and many aged 80 or over." I have to say that surprised me. I had always thought we had a thriving Jewish community in Llandudno, but this suggests otherwise.

Interesting point Ian. Some families have either died out or the younger members moved away for work reasons. I have seen reference that the contribution to Llandudno made by Jewish families down the years is to be the subject of a project involving Llandudno Museum and an academic from Bangor Uni. A pamphlet on the Jewish families in Bangor was produced a couple of years ago.

My impression has been that we've seen a move into the town by some Jewish groups over the past few years. Certainly, many come on coach trips although the more fundamentalist Charedi seem to be regulars.

My mother used to speak of the number of Jews who moved to Llandudno from London in World War 2. She had a friend, Maisie Levy (later Maisie Hardman) who had been sent out of Golder's Green with her 3 sisters. Their father, who was an accountant, came to visit from time to time. I think they lived in St Seiriol's Road. Later on when Maisie married Sid Hardman she lived in a house on The Oval.

Is the old Railway Convalescent Home on the Marine Drive still a mother and baby home for Jewish girls? There used to be some very orthodox Jews who bought houses along Llys Helig Drive in the early 2000s. I heard that one of them went along Llys Helig Drive asking owners of the properties there is they wanted to sell them and to give them the first option. There was the famous house sale c2003, where they offered double the price that was paid for the property but the residents would have to sell within one week. At that time there seemed to be an invasion.