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I want to echo what David is saying in some respects. I dislike somewhat the notion that there's a Cool Kids Club around Internal Power discussions because I think there needs to be higher level discussions (bringing it back onto the topic of this thread) around "how this stuff works" and "what these guys were doing" - which can allow for people to postulate about communing with the kami, etc.

That being said, since the tenor of the discussions often circle back to - what was Ueshiba doing and capable of . . how to get there . . - it does help when there's a baseline from which to speak. One of those baseline's is "Who have you gotten hands on and who has gotten hands on you?" . . another one is "How does this stuff work, please explain?" . .

Neither of which are perfect for any number of reasons . . but from the standpoint of offering opinion or assertions, it does help from a credibility perspective. And not going so far to the "prove it" space so much as the notion of offering validity for what you say. As it is, there's enough posters that tend to make things up or just type whatever sounds nice in their head without running it through some rationality filters, anyways.

Anyways, where I'm going with it is that it's helpful is all - doesn't need to come across as a challenge. I reserve the strongest opinions until I get hands on somebody anyways. But what tends to push me in the direction of seeking someone out is how well reasoned and credibly they present themselves.

I want to echo what David is saying in some respects. I dislike somewhat the notion that there's a Cool Kids Club around Internal Power discussions because I think there needs to be higher level discussions (bringing it back onto the topic of this thread) around "how this stuff works" and "what these guys were doing" - which can allow for people to postulate about communing with the kami, etc.

I think that's why this thread is best left to discussions of Morihei Ueshiba's power, and ways in which we can actually relate to what he could do, rather than necessarily trying to come up with hypotheses on how to do it (to avoid the inevitable thread banishment to the NTMA section).

Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:

That being said, since the tenor of the discussions often circle back to - what was Ueshiba doing and capable of . . how to get there . . - it does help when there's a baseline from which to speak. One of those baseline's is "Who have you gotten hands on and who has gotten hands on you?" . . another one is "How does this stuff work, please explain?" . .

But how many of us have gotten our hands on Morihei Ueshiba? We have no actual basis of feel, besides maybe someone like Saotome Shihan, which with to say, "Yeah, that feels like what he was doing." So we can at best say, "Yeah, that feels like what I think it would have felt like if Morihei Ueshiba did it to me, based on what I've read other people have felt." Big difference, and I think this gets to Ellis' original point at the beginning, that what he felt from his teachers did not match up with what he heard others felt from O'Sensei? So we can go out and feel men who may even be doing exactly the things O'Sensei did, or maybe even things far beyond him, and we relative aikido newbies just can only be impressed by what's put in front us of without any definitive answers. Or even, we could have felt the real thing all along from someone else, and be dissatisfied with it because we're expecting to feel the wrong thing.

Quote:

Budd Yuhasz wrote:

Neither of which are perfect for any number of reasons . . but from the standpoint of offering opinion or assertions, it does help from a credibility perspective. And not going so far to the "prove it" space so much as the notion of offering validity for what you say. As it is, there's enough posters that tend to make things up or just type whatever sounds nice in their head without running it through some rationality filters, anyways.

Anyways, where I'm going with it is that it's helpful is all - doesn't need to come across as a challenge. I reserve the strongest opinions until I get hands on somebody anyways. But what tends to push me in the direction of seeking someone out is how well reasoned and credibly they present themselves.

The burden of proof could/should go even farther than just feeling someone who impresses you. They should be able to articulate a way for you to get an actual little taste of doing what they're doing. I mean, they didn't just practice for a long time and suddenly 10 years later one day wake up with skills. They built them bit by bit, and if they can show you how to do the initial bits, and make you believe that you can also build off those to get to them, that's real proof of construction, and probably makes the person come off as well reasoned and credible.

And I think this mandates actually feeling a physical, tangible effect in your body to manifest something. Not just imagining you are projecting your love and respect for all beings/nature/life/etc. into your aikido, but something that can really be quantified, at least subjectively, and intuitively perceived as arising in your body. If you're on the right path and you've practiced 1/Nth as much as O'Sensei, you should be 1/Nth as skillful as O'Sensei in the same qualitative way - yeah, yeah, progress is not linear but you should still have something to show for it. I did not demand this of my own training for a long time, but having experienced more, I sorta demand it for myself now.

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David Orange wrote:

But if someone tells me they've met and experienced the power of any number of people (Dan, Mike, Ark, Forrest Chang, Chen Xiao Wang, Sam Chinn, Howard Popkin....or any of a number of others), then I can feel confident that we're at least talking about the same thing. As I described earlier, the "average person"'s level is so inefficient that he can be easily impressed by anyone with a little skill. We just need some reference that we can relate to to understand what has impressed you as great power. It's not an attack or a challenge. Just some common point of reference.

This is a biggy. I've gone off into the weeds a few times, studying with people that could power movement in interesting ways that did not depend on them doing any particular movement, but they imbued the movements with a power that was not normally there. They all had different ways of building and using this, and very few of them of them were things I could actually figure out how would improve my practice of aikido. But yet, they improved my overall martial capabilities and changed how I train.

And then when I encountered some people in the above specific group you mention, David, I felt like, "Oh, duh, THAT could really apply to aikido." What they were doing was analogous in some ways, but I would have not figured it out from prior people who had their own brand of power. Had I just gone straight there, it probably would have saved me a lot of time messing around with other things if my sole interest was diving deeper into aikido. A group of peers who have agreed-to-agree and vet eachother in person about what power is that can drive aikido, not just power that is not normal - I just didn't get it till I saw it.

When stuff hits the fan one has whatever skill level they have. Maybe all that matters is your skill level is greater than the skill level of whoever is trying to do mean things to you.

And the purpose of shugyo is to prepare for the worst possible case. I've always felt that the worst aspect of modern aikido is that it tends to paint the attacker as an utter imbecile, teaching us that an attacker is going to over-commit in his attack, give us a big, obvious attack, and stay down after we effortlessly throw him once (with a smile).

The reality is that we need to prepare for someone who is bigger and meaner than we are, stronger, faster and every bit as smart, with experience in fighting and robbery, and will likely have at least one partner and may well be armed.

To leave anything open to chance by ignoring some potential to develop greater effectiveness is not to train at all.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

...Had I just gone straight there, it probably would have saved me a lot of time messing around with other things if my sole interest was diving deeper into aikido. A group of peers who have agreed-to-agree and vet eachother in person about what power is that can drive aikido, not just power that is not normal - I just didn't get it till I saw it.

True that.

But even if you think you're wasting your time (or you look back at what you previously did and think that was a waste), you still probably got something out of it--hopefully more than just bad habits!!!

But when you really feel it from someone who really has it, the light bulb goes on. And in that light, maybe all you can see is a bunch of stuff you can't understand. But at least you're not in the dark anymore!

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Yeah, it will. But the point here is an examination of what really constitutes "cultivating" the mind, body and spirit: is it just following the movements or is it peering into the depths of their nature? Is it repeating the forms or digging out the essence behind the form? Is it to practice only the avoidance that we see now, or to find the ability to be unmoved as Morihei Ueshiba definitely had?

In my opinion, getting to the root of Ueshiba's power is far more important than imitating his outward appearance.

Coming in late to all of this. I've had a pet theory for a while now, not about Ueshiba's martial ability per se, but about his visions and supposed ability to see beams of light coming from attackers and whatnot. Quite simply, I think that he was suffering from some form of late onset synesthesia, perhaps brought about by some neurological or spinal trauma in his training. Synesthesia is a fascinating neurological condition wherein stimulation of one sense creates a cross modal association in another. People see shapes of sounds, taste colors, etc... Perhaps even see the light of one's attacker?

This is not to say that I think his ability in aiki was caused by some sort of neurological rewiring. But lets face it, the man hallucinated nearly on a daily basis. For the most part we either accept Ueshiba's words about his visions as an expression of some eccentricity of his religious beliefs or we ignore it for the same reason.

At the very least, I suspect somewhere along the lines Ueshiba banged himself around so much that he inflicted trauma on his brain, perhaps lesions on his temporal lobe. I recall reading that sometimes Ueshiba would experience periods of sudden weakness and need support from his students, then in relatively short time would recover and put on demonstrations, proclaiming the proper spirits entered his body. Poor guy was probably experiencing some form of a seizure but framed the experience through his religious worldview.

Again I think this is all independent of his martial abilities, but it does help make certain claims made by Ueshiba become clearer.

Having trained with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei and experienced the direction he is taking his aikido I think I'm starting to appreciate - if only on an intellectual level - the journey from that internal power to that soft ghostlike technique where uke simply cannot feel what is being done to them.

FWIW

Mike,

Can you comment on what you feel is different between internal power to soft ghostlike technique? Do you see this as being any different than the "wrestling an empty jacket" comments told about the old time judo guys?

Coming in late to all of this. I've had a pet theory for a while now, not about Ueshiba's martial ability per se, but about his visions and supposed ability to see beams of light coming from attackers and whatnot. Quite simply, I think that he was suffering from some form of late onset synesthesia, perhaps brought about by some neurological or spinal trauma in his training. Synesthesia is a fascinating neurological condition wherein stimulation of one sense creates a cross modal association in another. People see shapes of sounds, taste colors, etc... Perhaps even see the light of one's attacker?

Good grief. First of all, Morihei's "seeing the beams of light from riflemen's bullets" happened in the 1905 Japanese war with Russia--long before he ever began aiki training with Sokaku Takeda.

Second, unless you're a neurologist, I wouldn't encourage such diagnoses of a man who had one of the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known--especially without direct examination. But if you must theorize so, at least get the time frames correct. He had those experiences from his young adulthood, so where you get "late onset" disease I must assume is from less-than-careful reading of his life history. And I would think that such experiences in early life, caused by neurological damage, would likely lead to progressive damage and loss of function as he aged, but Morihei continued to become more and more highly tuned and efficient into his advanced age.

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Scott Burke wrote:

This is not to say that I think his ability in aiki was caused by some sort of neurological rewiring. But lets face it, the man hallucinated nearly on a daily basis. For the most part we either accept Ueshiba's words about his visions as an expression of some eccentricity of his religious beliefs or we ignore it for the same reason.

I don't think his experiences would fall into the category of halucinations. I think he understood that these were all personal spiritual experiences and that he did not believe these were actual things happening in the physical world around him, wondering why everyone else didn't see them. And even though he did believe the gods of Japan entered his body and empowered him, that would more usually be called "inspiration" than "halucination." He cultivated these experiences through esoteric Buddhist and Shinto practices and I'm sure he would have been amazed if any ordinary human had experienced those things without those arduous efforts.

Quote:

Scott Burke wrote:

At the very least, I suspect somewhere along the lines Ueshiba banged himself around so much that he inflicted trauma on his brain, perhaps lesions on his temporal lobe. I recall reading that sometimes Ueshiba would experience periods of sudden weakness and need support from his students, then in relatively short time would recover and put on demonstrations, proclaiming the proper spirits entered his body. Poor guy was probably experiencing some form of a seizure but framed the experience through his religious worldview.

Again, I think you're conflating time periods and states of his health. Morihei never had periods of sudden weakness in the course of his normal life until he was very old and had deteriorated over many years. He may have had some defined periods of ordinary illness, but no one has ever suggested that he had "sudden spells" of weakness during his prime. And the stories about his sudden moments of energizing in his advanced age were told to point out that, despite the disease he bore (I think it was kidney or bladder trouble--maybe cancer), his inspiration could lift even such a weak old body and enable him to perform feats of great strength. I'm not aware of any neurological damage that gives that kind of boost in performance.

Quote:

Scott Burke wrote:

Again I think this is all independent of his martial abilities, but it does help make certain claims made by Ueshiba become clearer.

Hardly. I'd suggest that if you want to make these kinds of speculations, you go back to your sources and read a full life history of the man and get that clear, then rethink your ideas.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Can you comment on what you feel is different between internal power to soft ghostlike technique? Do you see this as being any different than the "wrestling an empty jacket" comments told about the old time judo guys?

Not to say that Morihei was anything but incredibly unique. Mochizuki Sensei had a photo of Jigoro Kano (the empty jacket man) at the right side of the kamiza in his dojo and a photo of O Sensei at the left. But he had a driftwood dragon--symbolizing O Sensei--in the kamiza (seat of the gods). He revered and respected Jigoro Kano, but he loved Morihei Ueshiba on a different level and I never doubted which he considered the greater master. And it's pretty clear that Kano, too, understood that Ueshiba was on a different level than himself, entirely.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

This is not to say that I think his ability in aiki was caused by some sort of neurological rewiring. But lets face it, the man hallucinated nearly on a daily basis. For the most part we either accept Ueshiba's words about his visions as an expression of some eccentricity of his religious beliefs or we ignore it for the same reason.

you mean he had been eating too much those mushrooms behind the Iwama shrine? you got any that you could share? have been wanting to commune with some kami for awhile now to see if i can get the right number for the local lottery. all the working and family and mundane life stuffs are messing with my aiki pursuit. so i need to win the lottery so i have time and resource to do spiritual aiki pursuit. and maybe i be able to absorb Ueshiba spirit so i can improve my aikido. of course, i would need a japanese translator to translate the stuffs in my head at that time.

Coming in late to all of this. I've had a pet theory for a while now, not about Ueshiba's martial ability per se, but about his visions and supposed ability to see beams of light coming from attackers and whatnot. Quite simply, I think that he was suffering from some form of late onset synesthesia, perhaps brought about by some neurological or spinal trauma in his training. Synesthesia is a fascinating neurological condition wherein stimulation of one sense creates a cross modal association in another. People see shapes of sounds, taste colors, etc... Perhaps even see the light of one's attacker?

This is not to say that I think his ability in aiki was caused by some sort of neurological rewiring. But lets face it, the man hallucinated nearly on a daily basis. For the most part we either accept Ueshiba's words about his visions as an expression of some eccentricity of his religious beliefs or we ignore it for the same reason.

While that doesn't seem impossible, I'm more inclined to think he was well-practiced at purposefully generating visualizations.
If I close my eyes and look at the back of my eyelids, with a little focus, I see colors and shapes...granted, I have been banged up a bit too. Sensory deprivation chambers are used to demonstrate this interesting phenomenon where the mind sort of replaces the lack of sensory input. If someone can learn to control this very well, why couldn't that person also actively apply that to daily life? ...And perhaps even apply it to subconscious processes?

Hi David. I admit its been a few years since I memorized my Ueshiba history, so I apologize for ticking you off with my less than encyclopedic knowledge of time and place. Work. Keeps a man busy.

First, who says training with Takeda was the precursor to his becoming a synesthete, if indeed physical trauma was the direct causal agent?

Second, the condition does also occur naturally. I believe I read in some journal or other in as many as one out of every 250,000 individuals. That in mind, change the words "late onset" with "early onset", apply it to the times in his life when his visions occurred and reconsider the possibility. See, that's the great thing about science. You get new data, you revise and correct. Simple.

Third, while I never met Ueshiba believe it or not I have worked with the mentally ill in Japan. They have told me about their visions and yes what they have to say does sound eerily familiar to the great master's recorded experience. And you know what, that's just fine, because there should be no stigma attached to those afflicted with neurological disorders.

From the patients I've met I can tell you that their hallucinations are deeply spiritual experiences for them. This image you seem to have of people shouting wild eyed at others wondering why everyone else didn't see them(hallucinations), that's Hollywood man.

I'm not aware of any neurological damage that gives that kind of boost in performance.

Nor am I, but there have been many cases in medical literature of tumors spurring excessive production of hormones in the body. Acromegaly is a nasty one. There's a profile here of a once powerful acrobat who discovered that the source of her strength was a cancerous tumor. Hmmn. Wait. Ueshiba died of cancer... you don't suppose?... Nahh.

Hi David. I admit its been a few years since I memorized my Ueshiba history, so I apologize for ticking you off with my less than encyclopedic knowledge of time and place. Work. Keeps a man busy.

It's not so much a lack of encyclopedic knowledge as putting out a theory like that with no real basis at all. Speculation is one thing, but weaving up a theory of brain damage to explain Ueshiba's performance, when no one has ever indicated that he suffered any kind of injury that could account for that just strikes me as unnecessarily bizarre, which is a little irritating.

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Scott Burke wrote:

First, who says training with Takeda was the precursor to his becoming a synesthete, if indeed physical trauma was the direct causal agent?

But what could possibly give anyone the idea that Ueshiba had suffered such damage--and on top of that, to speculate that the nerve/brain damage caused his superior performance? In fact, I think there should be no question that it was Deguchi's mystical influence that inspired Ueshiba's bent toward visions and colorful imagery.

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Scott Burke wrote:

Second, the condition does also occur naturally. I believe I read in some journal or other in as many as one out of every 250,000 individuals.

Maybe, but the way you earlier handled the timelines and events of Morihei's life makes me wonder if you're correctly representing this figure, as well...

I think Occams Razor would lead us to explain these things by the irrationality of Japanese culture in Morihei's time, paired with his extensive involvement with a man who considered himself to be the Messiah. With Morihei's already fantastic levels of physical ability and his natural charisma and ability to lead and influence other people, it seems only natural that he would feel quite comfortable seeing himself as a similar shaman or avatar. Then there is all the extant Chinese thinking, the Heaven-and-Earth-United by Man kind of ideas and so on. I don't see any reason to believe any kind of injury caused the experiences he worked assiduously to attain. And most important, I'm not aware of anyone's ever accounting any kind of serious injury to him, despite his arduous life as a settler in Hokkaido and his very serious training in martial arts. So the theory of a brain/nerve injury to account for his incredible abilities seems to come out of nowhere and to bring with it no connection to anything.

Quote:

Scott Burke wrote:

That in mind, change the words "late onset" with "early onset", apply it to the times in his life when his visions occurred and reconsider the possibility. See, that's the great thing about science. You get new data, you revise and correct. Simple.

But I don't see anything in any of the data to vaguely suggest the condition you describe.

Quote:

Scott Burke wrote:

Third, while I never met Ueshiba believe it or not I have worked with the mentally ill in Japan. They have told me about their visions and yes what they have to say does sound eerily familiar to the great master's recorded experience. And you know what, that's just fine, because there should be no stigma attached to those afflicted with neurological disorders.

From the patients I've met I can tell you that their hallucinations are deeply spiritual experiences for them. This image you seem to have of people shouting wild eyed at others wondering why everyone else didn't see them(hallucinations), that's Hollywood man.

That's also your description. I said: "I don't think his experiences would fall into the category of halucinations. I think he understood that these were all personal spiritual experiences and that he did not believe these were actual things happening in the physical world around him, wondering why everyone else didn't see them." Where do you get the "shouting wild-eyed at others" image?

Morihei has never been described as a crazy man or as anyone suffering from any condition that would suggest brain or nerve damage, especially in light of his extremely high levels of ability. Speculation can be interesting if it adheres to the known facts, but the narrative you gave earlier did not.

Still, if you find some evidence, that might make an interesting report.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

... there have been many cases in medical literature of tumors spurring excessive production of hormones in the body. Acromegaly is a nasty one. There's a profile here of a once powerful acrobat who discovered that the source of her strength was a cancerous tumor. Hmmn. Wait. Ueshiba died of cancer... you don't suppose?... Nahh.

Well, you specify "once powerful." What happened to her? Usually, such things lead to rapid deterioration. Morihei Ueshiba had decades of high level physical performance and incredible visionary experiences, his health and skill all the while improving steadily. Are you suggesting that he had bladder or kidney cancer throughout the fifty or more years of his highest level performance?

I don't discount your ideas entirely, but such suggestions as that he often had bouts of sudden weakness and had to be supported by his students, only to recover just as suddenly, implying that this occurred during the height of his physical prime put you on very shaky ground.

I'd just suggest that you re-read the whole thing again with close attention and then form your ideas.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

You can test for synesthesia genetically, that is if it came about naturally. It would be great if the current Doshu would be willing to offer to allow a PCR test on his blood to put the idea to rest, but I know that ain't going to happen. The last thing I'll mention about brain trauma before letting this rest, sometime the most innocuous seeming tap can change your world.

Its funny you mention Deguchi. There's a Konkokyo shrine down the road from me, they're tangentially related to Omotokyo, I've chatted with them politely a few times. They saw me in my Aikido sweatshirt one day and started telling me about Nao Deguchi and a bunch of really complicated explanations about the positions of deities and their movements. Nice but awkward.

I told my boss about it later and she said to stay away from them because they were really weird. This is the same boss who once hired an Onmyoushi to come perform an exorcism on on the pipes behind the office because they were making a knocking sound. But I digress.

I told my boss about it later and she said to stay away from them because they were really weird. This is the same boss who once hired an Onmyoushi to come perform an exorcism on on the pipes behind the office because they were making a knocking sound. But I digress.

You can test for synesthesia genetically, that is if it came about naturally. It would be great if the current Doshu would be willing to offer to allow a PCR test on his blood to put the idea to rest, but I know that ain't going to happen.

Well, which are you looking for? If it was a brain injury, as you have suggested, that wouldn't show up. But if it's genetic, then it would probably have manifested in his parents, children or siblings.

I suppose if you were to gather some good evidence that this kind of thing ran in the Ueshiba family, the current doshu might want to have such tests done. But it seems that none of the family before or after Morihei had these experiences and it seems clear that his experiences resulted from his dedicated training in mysticism--i.e., no physical injury or mutation.

Further, the evidence is of a super level of physical and mental functioning, surpassing virtually any other human being of his day, which seems seriously to undermine any thought of injury as cause since, instead of slowly deteriorating as he aged, indeed, he became more powerful and efficient until he contracted liver cancer at almost 85 years of age.

The science I'm familiar with begins with a thorough study of the available data and only then produces a theory. To develop your theory first, then find evidence that supports it (and ignore other elements) is just bias and will not lead to true results. So it seems to me that your idea of synesthesia in Morihei Ueshiba was stillborn and does not need to be put to rest except in your own mind. But if you can't let it rest in peace, I'd suggest that you dig a lot deeper for supporting evidence before requesting tests from the family.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

David, Don't you think there is a little bit of contradiction in this statement?

"Second, unless you're a neurologist, I wouldn't encourage such diagnoses of a man who had one of the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known--especially without direct examination."

Well, some sorts of speculation are interesting and some are a little over the border.

As an aikido man, this kind of idea strikes me as rather insulting to Ueshiba and his family.

And as science, it strikes me as something we might expect to find in the National Enquirer--like the Batboy. Attributing such high-level mental and physical functioning to brain or nerve injury?

I guess the hash of Ueshiba's history--having to be supported by his students periodically because of sudden intermittent weakness in the prime of his life, for example (mixing up specific incidents from his old age as having happened in his prime)--set the tone to put all these ideas in ridiculous light. It just reminded me of a recent post where some guy, through very poor reading of Ueshiba's history, reached the conclusion that Ueshiba was obese! It shows utter lack of respect for the facts of the matter, and that simply invites rejection.

I'm more than willing to entertain serious thinking on the subject, but please don't expect anyone serious to accept things that defy the laws of nature.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

David, Don't you think there is a little bit of contradiction in this statement?

"Second, unless you're a neurologist, I wouldn't encourage such diagnoses of a man who had one of the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known--especially without direct examination."

Best,

Mark

I guess so. In fact, I wouldn't expect any competent neurologist to make such a guess without direct physical examination of the subject OR extensive historical evidence as a basis.

Better?

Or if you mean my judging Ueshiba as 'a man who had one of the most highly tuned and efficient mind/body organizations ever known," I'd say that's pretty well established by the results he got and the opinions of him expressed by hundreds if not thousands of the most prominent exponents of the activities Ueshiba pursued.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu