Yeah in Drikung the most realized person was said to have been Drubwang Konchog Norbu Rinpoche of the last century.. He pretty much said he had attained complete enligthenment (this happened while he was at the Garchen Institute in Arizona) He had done a lot of retreat, his last retreat he lived eating only tsampa (a little bit once a week) and this retreat lasted ten years. I believe his main practice was the Drikung Mahamudra path as he had done a bunch of three year retreats on this before going into his ten year where he attained Mahamudra Siddhi.. Actually he said that he had attained the highest views of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen, and that he wasn't coming back to the world in any ordinary way.., He also said that we all have the potential to realize the same realization as he did ! Amazing... Drubwang Rinpoche is contemporaies with Pachung Dorje CHang, KHyunga Rinpoche, and Gelong Tenzin Nyima- Their lineage holder is Gelong Yeshe- who I had the good fortune to meet and recieve some instruction from in Kathmandu (It was all him talking to me in Tibetan so I got very little of it but could feel great blessings coming through him actually one of the only things I remember about this encounter was him saying ye-drol -chagya chenpo- mahamudra is the primordial liberation!).

Anyway Garchen Rinpoche is well respected in the Drikung Kagyu as one of the most realized people in the lineage.. He always says "I am not a scholar" so there is much "I don't Know".. But actually he knows everything and he has perfect clairvoyance to prove it (ask any of his disciples)...He has practiced everything. Drikung Mahamudra, Yangzab, and the pith instructions from KHenpo Munsel Rinpoche for 20 years while he was trapped in Chinese prison labor keep... He has accomplished pretty much everything too..There is a lot I don't know about what Garchen Rinpoche's practice is exactly or just how much he has accomplished. His previous incarnation was Thrinley YongKhyab who was a Mahasiddha but he was also one of Jigten Sumgon's Heart Disciples back 800 years ago, and even further he is considered to have been Aryadeva in India, the disciple of Nagarjuna.. This is an interesting connection because Jigten Sumgon was reputed to be an incarnation of Arya Nagarjuna.

Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche is also a great Lama and he has a lot of scholarly qualities as well. He has done important work for both the Drikung and Nyingma lineages... his root Lama is Khunu Lama. But what Namdrol is implying that Garchen Rinpoche is less realized than Gyalpo Rinpoche because he has taken empowerments from him (if he has) is not exactly true.. I'm sure that conversely Garchen Rinpoche has offered many empowerments to Gyalpo Rinpoche as well.. They grew up together in the same area of Kham I believe... Nonetheless it is Garchen Rinpoche who is most well known for his vast kindness as well as realization.. But really all the Lama's in the Drikung Kagyu lineage are really good.

Last edited by tamdrin on Sun May 15, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah in Drikung the most realized person was said to have been Drubwang Konchog Norbu Rinpoche of the last century.. He pretty much said he had attained complete enligthenment (this happened while he was at the Garchen Institute in Arizona) He had done a lot of retreat, his last retreat he lived eating only tsampa (a little bit once a week) and this retreat lasted ten years. I believe his main practice was the Drikung Mahamudra path as he had done a bunch of three year retreats on this before going into his ten year where he attained Mahamudra Siddhi.. Actually he said that he had attained the highest views of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen, and that he wasn't coming back to the world in any ordinary way.., He also said that we all have the potential to realize the same realization as he did ! Amazing... Drubwang Rinpoche is contemporaies with Pachung Dorje CHang, KHyunga Rinpoche, and Gelong Tenzin Nyima- Their lineage holder is Gelong Yeshe- who I had the good fortune to meet and recieve some instruction from in Kathmandu (It was all him talking to me in Tibetan so I got very little of it but could feel great blessings coming through him actually one of the only things I remember about this encounter was him saying ye-drol -chagya chenpo- mahamudra is the primordial liberation!).

Anyway Garchen Rinpoche is well respected in the Drikung Kagyu as one of the most realized people in the lineage.. He always says "I am not a scholar" so there is much "I don't Know".. But actually he knows everything and he has perfect clairvoyance to prove it (ask any of his disciples)...He has practiced everything. Drikung Mahamudra, Yangzab, and the pith instructions from KHenpo Munsel Rinpoche for 20 years while he was trapped in Chinese prison labor keep... He has accomplished pretty much everything too..There is a lot I don't know about what Garchen Rinpoche's practice is exactly or just how much he has accomplished. His previous incarnation was Thrinley YongKhyab who was a Mahasiddha but he was also one of Jigten Sumgon's Heart Disciples back 800 years ago, and even further he is considered to have been Aryadeva in India, the disciple of Nagarjuna.. This is an interesting connection because Jigten Sumgon was reputed to be an incarnation of Arya Nagarjuna.

Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche is also a great Lama and he has a lot of scholarly qualities as well. He has done important work for both the Drikung and Nyingma lineages... his root Lama is Khunu Lama. But what Namdrol is implying that Garchen Rinpoche is less realized than Gyalpo Rinpoche because he has taken empowerments from him (if he has) is not exactly true.. I'm sure that conversely Garchen Rinpoche has offered many empowerments to Gyalpo Rinpoche as well.. They grew up together in the same area of Kham I believe... Nonetheless it is Garchen Rinpoche who is most well known for his vast kindness as well as realization.. But really all the Lama's in the Drikung Kagyu lineage are really good.

Gelong Pachung Rinpoche is Garchen Rinpoche's lama. But it doesn't mean Pachung Rinpoche is higher than Garchen Rinpoche. Drubpon Gonpoe Dorje said it like this, "Garchen Rinpoche is a higher master than Pachung Rinpoche, because his is reborn bodhisattva. Pachung Rinpoche is higher than Garchen Rinpoche, because he is his root lama. Pachung Rinpoche is higher than higher." Anyway, this is how Drubpon Gonpo Dorje talks.

Wrong, Garchen Rinpoche's first lama was his father.. Garchen Rinpoche realized the nature of mind for the first time when he was 5 years old.. Growing up he had many Lama's in the monastery.. His root Drikung Master was Chimed Dorje Rinpoche who was a Vajradhara (Garchen Rinpoche said one could fathom what kind of accomplishment Milarepa had through seeing this master).. His root Dzogchen master was Khenpo Munsel who was a disciple of Khenpo Ngagchung. Khenpo Munsel rested unwavering in trekchod for 20 years or so all through prison (10 years) and 10 years in the mountains on retreat.. Gelong Yeshe is a student of Pachung, Gelong tenzin Nyima etc. he is not Garchen Rinpoche's lama he is younger than him I believe, but I do think that Garchen Rinpoche considers drubwang Konchog Norbu his Lama as he has a picture of him along with Khenpo Munsel and Arya Tara on his shrine in his hut in the desert in Arizona..

Pachung Rinpoche was the lineage holder of Drikung while he was alive. He was a mahasiddha. He was every drikungpa's lama. I don't know who Garchen Rinpoche's root lama was. But now I do. (Oh I edited above because I meant Pachung but wrote Yeshe sorry).

Why do you care who is higher than who so much? Did Pachung Rinpoche attain the Rainbow body.. yes Pachung Rinpoche was an important Drikung Kagyu retreat master.. Garchen Rinpoche said he would have to spend the rest of his life on retreat to attain the Rainbow body (he is now in his 70's)..

It will be nice to have a separate topic in Kagyu subforum on Drikung masters and people debating each other there on who is more realized within Drikung, all very interesting I'm sure for the record and then easily found too. Anyway back to the topic of Adibuddha who is ultimately Samantabhadra in his highest unadorned state, as some tantras and termas believed in by all schools have referred to beyond any dispute or all refutation as Namdrol said. Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche when even young amazingly practiced and accomplished the ultimate dharmakaya chulen, not needing any food at all, but using just the ether and a few rocks(1) for nourishment, and of course later on his path became beyond descritption and legendary and the living mahaguru of all Tibetan great livig masters, alongside Chatral Rinpoche, ie: Trulshik Rinpoche described him as an emenation of Samantabhadra(2). So there are great living emanations of Dharmakaya Adibuddha called Samantabhadra in person, it's rare but it still does happen from time to time.

"At the request of Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche's consort, Sonam Samp'hel, and Rinpoche's close students, His Holiness Trulshik Rinpoche and Gyalsay Tulku Rinpoche both wrote a supplication prayer for Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche's swift rebirth. You can download a translation of the prayers here. Please include this in your closing prayers": http://files.e2ma.net/16906/assets/docs ... rayers.pdf

adinatha wrote:Of course Gyalpo Rinpoche is a nice master. Drikung has two lineages in it. The first is the lineage of empowerment people, like His Holiness Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche and Garchen Rinpoche. They can only give empowerments and teachings, but not retreat stuff like Six Yogas. .

Gyalpo Rinpoche is qualified to give all. More importantly he is the probably the main master for Yangzab.

adinatha wrote:I appreciate you've had all kinds of teachers. My little unknown lama descends from Pachung Rinpoche and Yeshe Rinpoche. These people are not khenpos. They are realized siddhas and 3-year retreat masters. Their teachings come from the perspective of experience. I'm pointing out that there is a way of demonstrating the Four Yogas in one's immediate direct realization of mahamudra.

You will find it very hard to find someone in Drikung more qualified than Gyalpo Rinpoche. Even Garchen Rinpoche has taken empowerments from him. He is renowned among other things for his expertise in the Yamantanaka cycle. He is an emanation of Rigzin Godem.

Of course Gyalpo Rinpoche is a nice master. Drikung has two lineages in it. The first is the lineage of empowerment people, like His Holiness Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche and Garchen Rinpoche. They can only give empowerments and teachings, but not retreat stuff like Six Yogas. The second is the lineage holders, gelongs, who maintain the practices and realizations and give teachings, but cannot give empowerments. Drikung devised this two branch system so that no one master could control the lineage. The purpose is to maintain the lineage. The Gelongs must descend from Gelong Pachung Rinpoche; that means have done three year retreat in his lineage of retreat masters. Now Gelong Tashi Rabten is the lineage holder in Drikungti. He responsible for being the antenna for the lineage blessings, because Drikung has an unbroken history of at least one master in each generation that reaches Vajradhara level. Pachung Rinpoche's other direct disciple was Gelong Yeshe Rinpoche. He held his last three-year retreat back in the late 90s in Almora. A few retreat masters, drubpons, were made from that group. Two are in the United States. One is Drubpon Rinchen Dorje who is supervising the three year retreat at Garchen Rinpoche's center. The other is Drubpon Gonpo Dorje who has established a center in San Francisco.

I really don't know where you got this stuff from but it might be true that some of the newer drupons don't give empowerments but some of them do..Also the higher Lama's are free to transmit whatever will be beneficial to sentient beings... It is my understanding that His Holiness transmits the Mahamudra pointing out instruction to retreatants at Almora, he may transmit some of the 6 yogas practices I dont know, and of course his specialty the 5 deity CHakrasamvara Initation (this can be a 3 day empowerment). Garchen Rinpoche just transmits what people ask for, initiations, teachings on Ganges Mahamudra, or the 3 words of Garab Dorje, his pith instructions on Tummo and om ah hum vajra repetitions etc etc..

This whose teacher is higher / whose teaching is higher is pretty distasteful, but, FWIW I've received teachings from Garchen Rinpoche, Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche, and Traga Rinpoche and all have greatly impressed me, both from their skill at teaching and their realization. I haven't had the good fortune to meet the other teacher adinatha mentions.

We invited Khenpo Tsultrim Tenzin to our little center today and he gave a talk on the four thoughts that turn the mind to the dharma. It is proclaimed by many teachers as the most profound dharma teaching! So all you Dzogchenpas, Tantrikas, and Mahamudra practitioners can take a back seat. The audio from today's teaching will find its way on the web as soon as I get off my lazy ass.

Jinzang wrote:This whose teacher is higher / whose teaching is higher is pretty distasteful, but, FWIW I've received teachings from Garchen Rinpoche, Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche, and Traga Rinpoche and all have greatly impressed me, both from their skill at teaching and their realization. I haven't had the good fortune to meet the other teacher adinatha mentions.

We invited Khenpo Tsultrim Tenzin to our little center today and he gave a talk on the four thoughts that turn the mind to the dharma. It is proclaimed by many teachers as the most profound dharma teaching! So all you Dzogchenpas, Tantrikas, and Mahamudra practitioners can take a back seat. The audio from today's teaching will find its way on the web as soon as I get off my lazy ass.

Anyone who thinks they cannot benefit from the 'lower' teachings just because they've received the 'higher' teachings is perhaps interpreting 'higher' and 'lower' incorrectly.

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

Namdrol wrote:All lineages begin in Samantabhadra, but the Sambhogakāya who communicates this is called Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, etc. Sometimes you see texts in Dzogchen where Samantabhadra is directly teaching Vajradhara.

Are these texts to be taken literally? What you've just said here really put me in mind of Sophia and gnosticism, like the chain of superior wisdom beings descend into matter to "wake us up" to enlightenment. It gets confusing to add another layer to this that everything is an emanation of mind and our buddha nature is identical to Samantabhadra and that everything is perfect but we perceive it incorrectly. This in turn reminds me of this quote from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche:

"Everything is perfect just as it is, completely pure and undefiled. Allphenomena naturally appear in their uniquely correct modes andsituations, forming ever-changing patterns full of meaning andsignificance, like participants in a great dance. Everything is asymbol, yet there is no difference between the symbol and the truthsymbolized. With no effort of practice whatsoever, liberation,enlightenment, and buddhahood are already fully developed and perfected.This is natural perfection."— from Dzogchen Practice In Everyday Life

It starts to seem that the creative source expresses its knowledge through the manifestation of all things, which are symbols, the necessary components of logical thought. Even if samsara is a result of misperception, I suppose this is possibly sensible. After all, I entertain all sorts of thoughts for my own amusement and then get lost in them.

I don't know if a thorough understanding of reality is necessary to being a good student or even possible, but sometimes when I'm walking down the street trying to imagine myself in the center of the mandala, as other beings jostle me around and I try to imagine them as dakinis teaching me, I do wonder how exactly I'm supposed to be viewing reality. All is a manifestation of mind and nondual, like a big dream, so who's dreaming, these dakinis bumping into me or me?

Sorry for the derail, just some thoughts that didn't seem worthy of starting a new thread (I don't expect to have a long discussion about this, but am interested in whatever you might think about it). Generally, when I start to think/wonder like this, I just give up and do some practice. I feel like there's some sutra where the Buddha said even he doesn't know all the workings of karma because it's so complex and spans aeons and aeons of time, so that helps reassure me that knowing the answer to all and everything isn't really necessary as long as you know enough to practice.

I was surprised once when I asked Lama Tsering Everest some question along these lines and she paused thoughtfully and then said, "I don't know. I'm still learning." in a somewhat mysterious manner. I wish I could explain the enigmatic expression on her face when she said that. I also wish I could remember the exact question I asked her.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

Pema Norbu wrote:When I start to think/wonder like this, I just give up and do some practice

Tahsi delek,

When i may ask, why are you giving it up or what are you giving up and what practice are you doing?I guess that you would be engaged mainly in Tantra.

Dzogchen is not per se based on Tantra, but one can get to Dzogchen over the gradual path of Tantra.All depends on the level of understanding and the related karma to be engaged in Dzogchen or not.Because Dzogchen is the highest teaching it is difficult to understand with a mind based on for instance, Kriya Tantra.

Pema Norbu wrote:When I start to think/wonder like this, I just give up and do some practice.

Hi kalden yungdrung,

Please take care when quoting. The above section in your post indicates someone called Pema Norbu wrote what you quoted, in fact it was padma norbu. There is a 'Quote' function which may be the best option, as opposed to the 'Code' function, when quoting others on this website.

Pema Norbu wrote:When I start to think/wonder like this, I just give up and do some practice.

Hi kalden yungdrung,

Please take care when quoting. The above section in your post indicates someone called Pema Norbu wrote what you quoted, in fact it was padma norbu. There is a 'Quote' function which may be the best option, as opposed to the 'Code' function, when quoting others on this website.

Regards,rt

Tashi delek,

Yes i saw the error. Thanks for your attention.

Best wishesKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Just spent an hour with the Venerable Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche here in Huntsville, Alabama, had not seen him since around 2005, looks even more radiant, youthful, and joyful than he did before, truly an amazing and inspiring teacher!