Does anyone know if there will be significant updates to the Nomic this year? Will there even be a new model? I know they just updated them... But, I'm very close to purchasing some new ones and want to know if I should wait or not.

I had thought since the updates last year across their whole ice tool line, you'd be good for a while before any changes. Was just the bottom of the handle changed? Any idea why the Petzl website doesn't reflect this change posted on Dane's blog?

The bottom of the handle has been changed with modified spike and the size adjustment has been improved with better engineering. The older model Nomic did not come with either a hammer head or adze. The new model offers both.

The bottom of the handle has been changed with modified spike and the size adjustment has been improved with better engineering. The older model Nomic did not come with either a hammer head or adze. The new model offers both.

Is this the older one now?:

Everything seems to look the same, except for what's posted up on the blog link above.

Same model as last year but a minor improvment on the end piece and pommel. No changes past that.

Pommel now has a serrated blade, slightly different grip shape and adjustments from the original. And as Jack mentioned the ability to add a hammer or adze. Also easy to add a Cold Thistle hammer to the old or new model Nomic. Both DRY and ICE picks are new and taper from 4mm to 3.2mm and are now T rated, slightly steeper in angle and have a different tooth pattern.

Nothing wrong with the original Nomic, but the new ones have a few advantages. If you can find a a pair, buy them, as there won't be a lot of them around early on.

Just got a set last week and they are amazing canít wait to try them out. I never owned the older generation of Nomics so I canít compare however I have attached some pics of the Nomics on top of the BD Fusion's and Cobra's. I tried to line up the grips as much as possible. The Nomics seem very similar in form to the Fusions however they are shorter. Also the Nomics feel significantly lighter than the Fusions with the weights off the picks. The grip on the Nomics is very nice and easy to adjust. I really like how the Nomic grip fits my hand, it is a much better fit than the Fusion. I have size medium hands and without glove or with a thin dry tooling gloves the bottom of my hand does not catch the bottom of the grip on the Fusion's very well so the little nub on the grips between your pointer and middle finger does not sit between your fingers very well, it kind of catches your pointer finger. With the Nomic's in the small postion the grip fits perfect, and in the medium position it fits perfect with a warm glove on.

Many of the major on line retailers have all three tools available now. I suspect they will be in short supply by mid winter. But that part is only a guess. Last winter was the exception not the rule for Petzl.

This is probably the most common review comparison anywhere. I will summarize a bit below, adding my own experience from getting to climb a few pitches with each of them (lots more nomic than cobra).

They are both definitely top-of-the-line tools. The general thought is that the swing on the cobra is just about as perfect as it gets. so for pure ice and snow using standard technique, the cobras are unbelievably good tools. Work nicely alpining as well, from what I understand (I don't do a whole lot myself). Also work nicely with leashes if you prefer that (I certainly don't). If all I ever climbed was pure ice and snow, this is probably what I would want.

However, the nomic has nearly as perfect a swing, and has a much nicer upper grip option and aggressive lower grip. They were made for leashless ice and mixed, and it shows. The offset handle and the upper grip allow for quite a bit more comfort matching hands and pulling strange moves. The all-metal, low profile shaft and head are way better for torquing and shoving into cracks. Though it doesn't seem obvious, they are making their way into the big mountains more and more, especially with the technical fast-n-light mountaineering crowd, though I think the cobra is probably still better for this for most (again, little experience here).

As a summary, the cobra is a great all-arounder leaning slightly towards the snow/alpine side of the spectrum, while the nomic is a great all-arounder leaning slightly towards the technical mixed side.

I climbed with them both in purely ice routes, no mixed or alpine. Nomic is simply better than Cobra. Both tools have their own swinging style. Nomic requires wrist flick to get a proper stick, while Cobra allows me to bash like straight shaft (useful when I'm tired). Both swing well, and have good balance. We can adapt to different swing style, but the picks at the end made the difference. Nomic pick (old cascade pick) penetrates and cleans like hot knife through butter, allows me to climb effortlessly. Cobra's laser pick penetrates well, but cleaning it is a FUCKING bitch. I get pumped much quicker on Cobras (and Vipers) than Nomics.

People said you can modify the picks for Cobras to allow easier removal of picks, but I haven't found that to be the case so far.

Here is the kicker, I got the new Quarks last season, and to my dismay, cleaning the new Ice picks is a pain. When I compare the picks to old style, they are completely different. Dane pointed out that I can modify the new Ice picks, but I haven't had the chance to test that out.

No question the older style Cascade pick is better on ice. But easy enough to modify the new ones. Have to wonder just how much the new design team at Petzl can fook up a great tool?

Nomic is better compared to the Fusion, Quark to the Cobra. But BD lacks a decent pick design in comparison. So no real comparisons...as already mentioned getting the pick out is more than half the battle.

I climb on most everything. But the tools I use and have paid retail for more than once are the Petzls. There is a reason I spend my money on their ice tools.

Dane, do you have a picture of the modified pick? I got a thick skull and I don't see how you can modify the new Ice pick to Cascade pick. I really don't understand why Petzl designer would change the picks for ice climbing.

I pretty much entirely agree with Dane though my experience with the tools is 180 degrees opposite I.e. I own both but have mostly climbed on Cobras. I think the Nomics actually swing better and have been easier to clean. In the past, I've mostly climbed with the Cobras in case I need to pound a pin and I didn't want to use different tools in the mountains vs on a "daily" basis. also I like the spike on the Cobras.

Other problem with Cobras on mixed ground is the angle of pull shifts when going from the lower to upper grip. Fairly easy to adjust to if you know what's up, but no such issue with the Nomics.

Now with the hammers available and the new pommel, I might make the switch. Nomics are still slightly more of a pain to clip onto/remove from ice clippers o n my harness though.

The Laser pick does need a TON of modification to clean well but I've got the process pretty dialed now.

I have a big potential issue with the new Nomic Ice pick though. At the gym where I train, it is literally impossible to get a stick in the Iceholdz(TM) on the mildly overhung system board. With adjustments to swing and hand position, I have been able to get good sticks with both Cobras and the old style Vipers. I'm guessing the first tooth is too steep (which is one of the things causing the cleaning problem with Laser picks) so I worry what they'll be like on real ice.

Here is a picture so people can make their own analysis. All the old Petzl picks are B-rated while all the new Petzl picks are T-rated.

Top is the old Astro pick. Middle is the current Ice Pick. Bottom is the old Cascade pick.

You can clearly see the new Ice pick is similar to the old Astro pick in tooth design and curve. The old Astro pick is designed for mixed climbing so hooking is important.

I've been racking my brain on how to make the new Ice pick to be like the old Cascade and haven't figured out a good way yet. Also, the new Ice pick has a different curve angle which I think is the exact (or very close) to the old Astro. I'm not an expert at this like Dane and other guys on the forums. From all the evidence (angle of the curve, tooth design), I can only make a guess that the new Ice pick is very very similar to the old Astro pick. If that's the case, it's unfortunate because the old Astro pick is TERRIBLE at ice climbing.

Just to add my own observations of the new petzl picks, I agree with Dane and Kevin. The new Ice picks, while better than the old Astros, are definitely not as good as the old cascades from my experience using both of them last season on a pair of new Quarks and old Nomics.

I'm pretty sure the reason is the same already mentioned: the angle of the first tooth.

My issue with the old Astros on pure ice was always just as much about ice displacement as stickiness, so the fact that the new ice pick is 3mm at the tip helps to address the former issue. As with the astros, I'm hoping once the new ice picks get worn down a little their performance will improve in that respect. With the astros I found that after wearing them down a bit on some mixed they turned into a much more ice amenable pick. Out of the box the terrible adjective, while maybe a touch harsh, is not far off.

I plan on picking up an extra pair of cascades while I can still find them.

The new picks have a couple more degrees added to them. Bad move imo. The big first tooth can be cut down almost flat on the ICE. Then make sure the lower tooth taper is well defined to ease removal. The tools then climb pretty much like a Cascade pick. Takes only a minute or so with a hand file. Bit more work and a good buffer and you and change the top angle some but I didn't find it worth the effort last winter. First tooth cut down now and I am done with them. I use my Cascade picks to climb Candaian water ice, And the new picks in the Rockies, Alps, Alaska or anywhere else I know I quickly roach a pick anyway.

Sticky MFs in any kind of ice if you don't cut that first tooth. Better yet if you trim the rest as well. best to just mimic the original Cascade pick.

Still I don't do anything to the Cascade picks and they climb great right out of the package. Hard to believe anyone could intentionally fook up a good thing so badly.

Guess I just need to learn how to climb better. Or may be they need some better climbers in the Petzl engineering department. If you have to gauge that by my skills, they must *really* suck.