Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.

jimboston wrote:My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.

What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.

Simple principles- presumption of innocence should be the standard before due process rules a person as illegal anything.

Okay, that's the process in the United States. So what's the point of this thread? Was there some news story I missed? Is there some critique I'm missing of the U.S. legal system as applied to illegal immigrants?

jimboston wrote:My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.

No process is unimpeachable.

If you have suggestions to improve the current process talk to your congressman.

If anything I think our system errs on the side of the illegal (presumed illegal) alien more often than not.

The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does. I don't understand the POINT of this thread... I don't think there is one.

jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening in Boston... please don't suggest it does.

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.

What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.

Simple principles- presumption of innocence should be the standard before due process rules a person as illegal anything.

Okay, that's the process in the United States. So what's the point of this thread? Was there some news story I missed? Is there some critique I'm missing of the U.S. legal system as applied to illegal immigrants?

Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.

the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein

jimboston wrote:My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.

No process is unimpeachable.

If you have suggestions to improve the current process talk to your congressman.

If anything I think our system errs on the side of the illegal (presumed illegal) alien more often than not.

That's as it should be. Better a few guilty go free than innnocent people condemned... and what makes you think I DON'T talk to congressfolk... but they follow public opinion, even when public opinion is misinformed.. as you proved.

The point I was making was that you don't seem to believe there IS a problem with legal citizens having documents. For you to continue to hold the line that "everyone has documents".. and "they are not difficult to obtain" means you are intentionally ignorant.

jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does. I don't understand the POINT of this thread... I don't think there is one.

I don't believe I said they do. However, several states, including Arizona have enacted laws that would do just that. Most have been rules illegal by the courts, are not enforceable, but the laws still remain on the books.

Also, the issue above as border patrol agents, who are much more like your local sheriff, whereas the Customs agents are more like FBI.

I never said you don't talk to your Representative. Though I'm guessing he/she doesn't listen to you either.

We are NOT "rounding up" people who "look Mexican"... it's not happening. Are people in some parts of the country (where illegal immigration is a more serious problem BTW)... are some people being wrongfully stopped? Yes. I am sure. Is it a hassle... yeah I guess for some. Does it mean these people are then wrongfully deported. NO. It doesn't happen.

PLAYER57832 wrote:The point I was making was that you don't seem to believe there IS a problem with legal citizens having documents. For you to continue to hold the line that "everyone has documents".. and "they are not difficult to obtain" means you are intentionally ignorant.

Yep... "everyone" has them... or can get them without serious issues.

... yes I put "everyone" in quotes. Obviously there is some small fraction of the population that may have a hard time getting ID. Even if LIberals where right... and the percentage is higher than I believe... this WOULD NOT EFFECT legal immigrants. Legal immigrants BY DEFINITION have ID.

Then there's a difference between those who don't have ID and those who "can't get" ID. Let's say X percentage of legal residents (citizens... because we already excluded legal immigrants) don't have ID.

Of X.... only a small percent "can't get" ID.... let's call that Y.

Of Y... MOST of these could get ID if we created voter ID laws AND required States to provide ID's (not licenses... but generic picture ID's) for free.So then we would be left with Z... the people who couldn't provide the documentation to get ID's.

This number Z would be VERY VERY small and we could find ways to accommodate these people too.

So yeah... having an ID shouldn't be a problem for a legal resident of this country.

PLAYER57832 wrote:The point I was making was that you don't seem to believe there IS a problem with legal citizens having documents. For you to continue to hold the line that "everyone has documents".. and "they are not difficult to obtain" means you are intentionally ignorant.

Yep... "everyone" has them... or can get them without serious issues.

... yes I put "everyone" in quotes. Obviously there is some small fraction of the population that may have a hard time getting ID. Even if LIberals where right... and the percentage is higher than I believe... this WOULD NOT EFFECT legal immigrants. Legal immigrants BY DEFINITION have ID.