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Posted 09 January 2016 - 02:55 AM

they messed up pretty bad to have people willing to give up 9 years worth of updates , but then again I think if WoW ever release a burning crusade server it would probably be more popular than WoD

Except they didn't quite give up 9 years. Two weeks prior to release, all the inconveniences of the 7 year old game quickly became apparent and people started demanding fixes which subsequently implemented, and even updates. And now they have a whole new continent which is probably comparable in magnitude of content to Prif.

Have you ever played 07?

07 is about as good as RS gets if you were a fan of the game prior to EoC. The only real "problem" is that the community is constantly split over every update. If a new update does anything to improve the condition of a skill, moneymaking method, or combat class, then half of the community immediately flips out and cries about how the "integrity" of the game is being threatened (or something), and how this game is becoming too easy.

So Jagex will listen to them and release an update which doesn't improve upon anything, and then the other half of the community freaks out and calls it a "useless" update and "dead content" or "waste of dev time."

So then maybe Jagex will go a little while longer than usual w/o any updates... and then the community complains about how bored they are and they want new content.

So 2007scape doesn't really have an official "Mission Statement" about what the game's supposed to be about, like it should. The feel of the game just kinda bounces back and forth between the two extremes constantly. Still an amusing game, though I quit once I maxed my combat and got 99 in the stats I wanted banked. I'm too lazy to actually finish training them since there isn't really anything that I actually want to do for fun on the game-- the community's too worried about XP waste to go play Castle Wars or Fight Pits these days

Posted 09 January 2016 - 03:05 AM

And therein lies the problem with runescape updates. It's either dead content or OP.

At the end of the day though, the less power creep in osrs, the better. I would rather live in a world where there are no updates, rather than one that has updates that consistently creep up dps/xp rates. I would say that osrs is actually an already complete game. There is very little that we are missing. Maybe some quality of life things. Idk.

I'm quite glad that zeah brings in nothing that increases the max xp rates of any skill. You could say that the 90k/h farming minigame is broken, but an efficient player won't do that since trees are 800k+ an hour. Soul/blood runecrafting is only broken in the aspect that it is 75% afk, which goes against the fundamental aspect of what runecrafting is, a high apm/focus skill.

But to bring it back to the topic of discussion, without updates to a game, it's population will disintegrate. The hype of zeah and it's update will keep players in the game, which can only be a healthy thing for the game itself. The more osrs players the better really. An update that has taken up a lot of devs time and brings in nothing objectively broken, I'll take that.

Posted 09 January 2016 - 12:46 PM

they messed up pretty bad to have people willing to give up 9 years worth of updates , but then again I think if WoW ever release a burning crusade server it would probably be more popular than WoD

Except they didn't quite give up 9 years. Two weeks prior to release, all the inconveniences of the 7 year old game quickly became apparent and people started demanding fixes which subsequently implemented, and even updates. And now they have a whole new continent which is probably comparable in magnitude of content to Prif.

Have you ever played 07?

07 is about as good as RS gets if you were a fan of the game prior to EoC. The only real "problem" is that the community is constantly split over every update. If a new update does anything to improve the condition of a skill, moneymaking method, or combat class, then half of the community immediately flips out and cries about how the "integrity" of the game is being threatened (or something), and how this game is becoming too easy.

So Jagex will listen to them and release an update which doesn't improve upon anything, and then the other half of the community freaks out and calls it a "useless" update and "dead content" or "waste of dev time."

So then maybe Jagex will go a little while longer than usual w/o any updates... and then the community complains about how bored they are and they want new content.

So 2007scape doesn't really have an official "Mission Statement" about what the game's supposed to be about, like it should. The feel of the game just kinda bounces back and forth between the two extremes constantly. Still an amusing game, though I quit once I maxed my combat and got 99 in the stats I wanted banked. I'm too lazy to actually finish training them since there isn't really anything that I actually want to do for fun on the game-- the community's too worried about XP waste to go play Castle Wars or Fight Pits these days

I know the general population don't seem to bother with the minigames but the BA and CW clans I was previously involved with have migrated en masse to OSRS. Though the CW lot still complain that it lacks the excellent atmosphere that CW had from about 07-11/12 a complaint I hear generally about OSRS that although the gameplay is preferred to RS3 it doesn't really satisfy the nostalgia for the real old game.

Pedicabo ego vos et irrumaboMinigames: Level 5 in All Barbarian Assault Roles PM me in game or on these forums to play. Over 500 Castle Wars Games with 460+ Tickets.

Posted 09 January 2016 - 04:00 PM

Frankly I think a huge portion of the blame for downfall goes to the catering to Efficiency or Meta dweebs. Never became about fun anymore, just Calculus.

​Jagex doesn't cater to the "efficiency" or "meta dweebs."

(And I don't see what's wrong with "efficiency." I'm not efficient, in a larger sense, when I play RuneScape, except when it comes to killing Tormented Demons as efficiently as possible. I have spent a long time determining non-obvious mechanics and finding the best ability rotations. Not to mention testing a wide range of equipment and other combat equipment [like auras]... This includes making a "simulator" [i.e., implementing an accurate, high-level view of the RuneScape combat system] to quickly test equipment/rotations/etc for validity. If I hadn't I wouldn't have managed be on the way to reaching 170 KPH, and by far not even have managed to average 150+ KPH with great certainty. I sure took the fun out of it?)​

If they did every single piece of content would have a defined space in the meta-game instead of much being dead content.

Besides like it or not every single player is part of the meta-game.

If you have ever watched a guide on how to do something in-game, bought yourself better gear to help yourself out or moved on to higher level content to get better xp or better gp you have played the meta-game. You have made these changes because the meta-game dictates they benefit you.

Just because you personally do not care what the absolutely theoretical best is or don't choice to do things the mathematical perfect ways does not mean you are magically outside the meta-game. In fact the meta-game probably did a bunch of sums and testing to work out exactly how you should play in a lesser intense, less theoretically perfect way (ie welfare guides, low budget guides, low stat guides. Gear equivalents).

Also it is very rude and insulting to class an entire group as dweebs and write off how they like to interact with the game just because you do not like it or find it fun.

Some of us find enjoyment and fun in working things out and we like to share what we have worked out to help others if they wish to take the advice.

Just because you do not want to use that advice is no reason to be rude and disrespectful to the time and effort people have invested in doing so and the fact they are willing to share that effort.

I mean I spent several hours making my fish flinger tracker to aid in playing fish flingers more efficiently does that mean i'm a "meta dweeb" and ruining the game?

I mean heaven forbid I have fun and enjoy myself by doing some javascripting to create a tool that helps me score more points easily in part of runescape because I like the idea of getting the most out of my time in fish flingers.

And how game ruining and awful of me to post it to major fansites so that others may use it entirely for free if they wish to do so.

And then as a real monstrous move to put the knife in and wreck the game for you I even spent MORE of my time enjoying myself doing some coding to implement suggestions to make the tool better,

Bottom line is if you have ever chosen to make a change to improve how you do something in-game you have made a meta-game choice.

If you have ever watched a single video guide or read a single guide on any forum, fansite or wiki about runescape you have purposefully gone in pursuit of meta-game knowledge to do something more efficiently.

Posted 09 January 2016 - 05:25 PM

I think calling people involved in the meta games dweebs is indeed insulting. Lots of people find a huge amount of enjoyment in researching the best way to do things, however (and please bear in mind I don't have much experience of OSRS) surely the majority of this research has already been done and OSRS lacks the atmosphere of discovery that a lot of people probably yearn for!

Pedicabo ego vos et irrumaboMinigames: Level 5 in All Barbarian Assault Roles PM me in game or on these forums to play. Over 500 Castle Wars Games with 460+ Tickets.

Posted 09 January 2016 - 09:14 PM

Well let's be honest here. In the case of RS, efficiency usually means minimizing time spent doing unpleasant activities. Once efficiency became popular, the playerbase really began to realize how unpleasant most of the activities in RS are. At its core, RS really isn't a "fun" game... It's a game about grinding and goal-setting.

Like, if I think about some of the most fun games I've ever played, the last thing I want to do is approach the game in such a way that the game is over as quickly and easily as possible. If anything, I want to enjoy every moment of the game since once the game ends, my fun ends as well.

Posted 10 January 2016 - 01:01 AM

It's also been more than long enough for everyone who likes the grinding-and-goal-setting nature of the game to have accomplished every goal they could possibly want. None of the Runescape games really offer much to do outside of making the numbers bigger

It still seems somewhat silly that the community has always adamantly rejected quality of life updates on the grounds that they make things too easy... Like, if the game is only hard because the mechanics are too intolerable for the majority of people to stomach for an extended period of time, then it's just not a good game.

Posted 12 January 2016 - 07:16 AM

Well let's be honest here. In the case of RS, efficiency usually means minimizing time spent doing unpleasant activities. Once efficiency became popular, the playerbase really began to realize how unpleasant most of the activities in RS are. At its core, RS really isn't a "fun" game... It's a game about grinding and goal-setting.

Like, if I think about some of the most fun games I've ever played, the last thing I want to do is approach the game in such a way that the game is over as quickly and easily as possible. If anything, I want to enjoy every moment of the game since once the game ends, my fun ends as well.

I always view Runescape kinda of like golf.

I enjoy playing it for for prolonged periods. but the ultimate objective of the game is spend the least amount of time playing it you can.

Posted 13 January 2016 - 04:06 AM

Kinda why after my main got banned I stopped playing RS. 25% of the reason I played was for end-level content and 75% was the social aspect. By the time I left in 2011, my friends list was deserted.

The name-change ability from 2009 was the beginning of the end. I started playing MW2, by then if i quit for three or four months I'd barely recognize my friends list. I have nothing against higher exp rates, but RS3 takes it too far. The reason people left for CoD/LoL et al. was because these games didn't require MASSIVE time investment to play high level content. When there wasn't much late game content it's not too bad, but now low level/mid level content is deserted as swathes have left.. It's not fun playing on your own in much less populated worlds compared to before. Another example of when Jagex's inaction to a changing gaming market has hurt them. The good thing about OSRS is it has features which people wanted in 2007, more developer interaction and more bosses while keeping familiarity*. Also Micro transactions (non cosmetic) is BS

*Yes I know EOC was in beta for a long time. However many RS players return after prolonged period out. A player from 2011 will struggle to transition to RS3. A player from 2006 rejoining in 2011 wouldn't find it so hard.

Posted 13 January 2016 - 07:53 AM

Kinda why after my main got banned I stopped playing RS. 25% of the reason I played was for end-level content and 75% was the social aspect. By the time I left in 2011, my friends list was deserted.

The name-change ability from 2009 was the beginning of the end. I started playing MW2, by then if i quit for three or four months I'd barely recognize my friends list. I have nothing against higher exp rates, but RS3 takes it too far. The reason people left for CoD/LoL et al. was because these games didn't require MASSIVE time investment to play high level content. When there wasn't much late game content it's not too bad, but now low level/mid level content is deserted as swathes have left.. It's not fun playing on your own in much less populated worlds compared to before. Another example of when Jagex's inaction to a changing gaming market has hurt them. The good thing about OSRS is it has features which people wanted in 2007, more developer interaction and more bosses while keeping familiarity*. Also Micro transactions (non cosmetic) is BS

*Yes I know EOC was in beta for a long time. However many RS players return after prolonged period out. A player from 2011 will struggle to transition to RS3. A player from 2006 rejoining in 2011 wouldn't find it so hard.

I think it is horribly flawed to suggest that OSRS some how 'keeps familiarity' when RS3 does not - both are mmorpg with regular updates so OSRS is moving away from the familiar ground that returning players would know in the same was RS3 has. Not to mention the idea that OSRS has 'more bosses' is daft, RS3 has plenty of new boss mobs too.

And it's not like the new combat system can be used as a 'keeps players away' thing any more when there is legacy combat mode, momentum, revolution and preset hotbars all of which help people transition from the old to the new system if they wish too and, unlike at launch, people understand the new combat now so there is plenty of guides and info out there to tell you whats what instead of everyone being like OMG 20 MILLION NEW THINGS TO CLICK.

Also how does it make sense that you think RS3 having higher xp rates has gone "too far" yet in the next sentence you take issue with it being a "massive time investment" to reach end-game content? You can't have lower xp rates AND smaller time investment they are kind opposite ends of the scale.

Also I don't see how in one breath you moan Jagex has been inactive to the changing game market and in the next moan about microtransactions - the biggest change to the games market as a whole these past 2 or 3 years is the move towards microtransactions and Jagex has made that move without completely selling out to a pay-to-win structure. (I mean yes bonds let you buy gp which lets you buy good gear, but it's not as direct or as op as some games do and arguably we could all buy gold already just not within the rules)

Posted 13 January 2016 - 06:07 PM

Kinda why after my main got banned I stopped playing RS. 25% of the reason I played was for end-level content and 75% was the social aspect. By the time I left in 2011, my friends list was deserted.

The name-change ability from 2009 was the beginning of the end. I started playing MW2, by then if i quit for three or four months I'd barely recognize my friends list. I have nothing against higher exp rates, but RS3 takes it too far. The reason people left for CoD/LoL et al. was because these games didn't require MASSIVE time investment to play high level content. When there wasn't much late game content it's not too bad, but now low level/mid level content is deserted as swathes have left.. It's not fun playing on your own in much less populated worlds compared to before. Another example of when Jagex's inaction to a changing gaming market has hurt them. The good thing about OSRS is it has features which people wanted in 2007, more developer interaction and more bosses while keeping familiarity*. Also Micro transactions (non cosmetic) is BS

*Yes I know EOC was in beta for a long time. However many RS players return after prolonged period out. A player from 2011 will struggle to transition to RS3. A player from 2006 rejoining in 2011 wouldn't find it so hard.

I think it is horribly flawed to suggest that OSRS some how 'keeps familiarity' when RS3 does not - both are mmorpg with regular updates so OSRS is moving away from the familiar ground that returning players would know in the same was RS3 has. Not to mention the idea that OSRS has 'more bosses' is daft, RS3 has plenty of new boss mobs too.

And it's not like the new combat system can be used as a 'keeps players away' thing any more when there is legacy combat mode, momentum, revolution and preset hotbars all of which help people transition from the old to the new system if they wish too and, unlike at launch, people understand the new combat now so there is plenty of guides and info out there to tell you whats what instead of everyone being like OMG 20 MILLION NEW THINGS TO CLICK.

Also how does it make sense that you think RS3 having higher xp rates has gone "too far" yet in the next sentence you take issue with it being a "massive time investment" to reach end-game content? You can't have lower xp rates AND smaller time investment they are kind opposite ends of the scale.

Also I don't see how in one breath you moan Jagex has been inactive to the changing game market and in the next moan about microtransactions - the biggest change to the games market as a whole these past 2 or 3 years is the move towards microtransactions and Jagex has made that move without completely selling out to a pay-to-win structure. (I mean yes bonds let you buy gp which lets you buy good gear, but it's not as direct or as op as some games do and arguably we could all buy gold already just not within the rules)

I had another look at osrs while procrastinating from exams today and it has already moved well past the point where anything is familiar

not that that is a bad thing and I am sure if I had been playing the game I would have wanted the new content, but the same mistakes of making weapons armor etc more and more powerful whips are useless again is happening all over again. Not to mention the real problem of there are no new players coming in and everyone wants endgame content

Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:04 PM

And therein lies the problem with runescape updates. It's either dead content or OP.

At the end of the day though, the less power creep in osrs, the better. I would rather live in a world where there are no updates, rather than one that has updates that consistently creep up dps/xp rates. I would say that osrs is actually an already complete game. There is very little that we are missing. Maybe some quality of life things. Idk.

I'm quite glad that zeah brings in nothing that increases the max xp rates of any skill. You could say that the 90k/h farming minigame is broken, but an efficient player won't do that since trees are 800k+ an hour. Soul/blood runecrafting is only broken in the aspect that it is 75% afk, which goes against the fundamental aspect of what runecrafting is, a high apm/focus skill.

But to bring it back to the topic of discussion, without updates to a game, it's population will disintegrate. The hype of zeah and it's update will keep players in the game, which can only be a healthy thing for the game itself. The more osrs players the better really. An update that has taken up a lot of devs time and brings in nothing objectively broken, I'll take that.

07 should not have any updates period IMO. People wanted to go back and play that version fine. Leave it as it and let them play it.

Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:34 PM

It isn't like the creators aren't asking the community if they want the updates though. The majority of them want the updates.

This is true in theory, but I don't think Jagex realizes that people often don't want what they say they want. For example, I remember reading about a large software company that did customer surveys about their product. Almost all the customers said they liked the software, but considered it too "full." The vast amount of features was overwhelming and confusing; they wanted less features so it'd be simpler to use.

So the company later called the customers back and asked them which features should be removed to make the product simpler. All of the customers said, "Don't take any features out! Are you nuts?!"

In the radio industry, the market research shows that listeners always claim they want more variety in their radio stations... yet every time radio stations add more variety, they lose listeners and ratings drop. So radio stations be sure to avoid variety and play the same stuff over and over, while at the same time advertising that they have "variety." Their listeners happily keep listening to the radio station without any variety.

Most political surveys of Americans say taxes are too high. But if you ask them what government services should be cut to reduce taxes, they say "none."

As far as RS goes, updates which are universally-acclaimed are extremely rare. Most updates are preceded with "Based on the feedback we got from you guys on our forums and social media, we're proud to introduce you to [new content] or [revised/updated content]!" And these updates are met with scathing criticism from the community that claimed they wanted these updates

Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:34 PM

Yeah, but there are really only 3 updates that a large amount of people have really had issues with (Zulrah, Zeah, and NMZ). I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about the Kraken weapons, crystal boots, God Wars, motherlode mine, rooftop agility, boss pets, etc.

Just think about how many fewer players would be playing 07 if they didn't introduce the GE? I know a lot of my friends didn't want to play the game because they didn't have 5 hours per day to spam type in w2 to sell their stuff, but they were ready to hop on board once the GE came out and they are still playing religiously (one of them is almost maxed total level).

Updates are essential for game population growth (or lack of population decline) with subscription based games.

“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”