Programs

The John Elliot Show

The recent fire aboard a boat full of asylum seekers sparked a range of questions about Australia’s stance on refugees. Are we too soft when it comes to asylum seekers, or are we too harsh? How should we deal with the smugglers? And, what about human rights?

With Qantas announcing job cuts and the economic figures looking worse each week, it is no surprise that the economy continued to be of interest. Questioners wanted to know whether the stimulus package was working; how many more jobs would be lost in coming weeks; what role the budget would play in stimulating the economy; and if China could help.

Q&A panel guest John Elliott’s widely quoted remarks about manners on his new website sparked a range of questions on the topic.

People also wanted to know about paid parental leave, climate change, religion and broadband.

Please note, to collate this graph we have counted only the questions submitted by the audience via sms and the web during the program.

On the Message Board

Read questions asked on this week's Q&A and what others thought.

Asylum SeekersAlex Dore asked: In the past two weeks, four boatloads of illegal immigrants have entered Australia. That's 264 suspected asylum seekers already this year, compared with just 60 in 2006 under John Howard. When will the government admit that its immigration policy has failed to deter people smuggling; admit that human-traffickers will be putting a red circle around 2010 and praying for a Labor victory?

Maureen Reddie asked: Seeing that we are involved in fighting a war in Afghanistan, should Australia not be sympathetic to those fleeing the war torn country, once we have ascertained their "authenticity"?

Paid Parental LeaveRuth Medd asked: A recent nationwide poll has found that there is broad community support for a national paid parental leave scheme to be funded by the Federal government in their next budget. Will the Government give an undertaking to support paid parental leave?

"Big Swinging Dicks"Mark Bingham asked: What is the Liberal Party's leader Malcolm Turnbull's position in supporting or not Julie Bishop as deputy leader? Is he the leader of the Big Swinging Dicks?

Safran and Pell - which action was more offensive? Christina Taylor asked: John Safran has faced widespread disapproval after being crucified for his upcoming, and no doubt informative, television program. Following Pope Benedict's claim, Cardinal George Pell agreed that condom use leads to higher AIDS infection rates and also encourages irresponsibility. Looking at John Safran and Cardinal Pell's actions, which of the two appears more satirical and offensive?

MannersNina Funnell asked: While ethical interaction between the sexes is always to be encouraged are traditional "good manners" (such as a man opening a door or standing up for a woman) really about encouraging ethical interaction, or are these "good manners" really about morally sanitizing society back to the 1950's when women were considered the fragile second sex?

UnemploymentTony Holland asked: I was made redundant on December 22, 2008, by a new inexperienced CEO. I was an exceptionally experienced manager and have since applied for over 40 positions. Julia Gillard says “she will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Qantas workers.” But Government support for people like me is non-existent. How is she going to stand “shoulder-to-shoulder” with me?

ApprenticesDallas Brown asked: The government states that it is trying to encourage employment yet I know that many apprentices are being retrenched. Notwithstanding their financial obligations, if living with parents, they are unable to obtain any Centrelink payments. Instead of handing out $900 to all and sundry would it not be more proactive to fully subsidise wages of these young people so that they can continue to gain qualification for their chosen trade?

TONY JONES: Good evening and welcome to Q&A. And here to answer your questions tonight, Journalist Stephen Crittenden; Shadow Minister for Early Childhood, Education and Women Sophie Mirabella; comedian and columnist Catherine Deveny; the Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen; and businessman, former president of both the Liberal Party and Carlton Football Club and now blogger John Elliott. Please welcome our panel.

Okay. Remember that Q&A is live on the web from 9.30 eastern time and you can send your questions to abc.net.au/qanda. That's qanda. Or by SMS to the number on your screen: 197 55 222.

As we go to air tonight there is tragic news of an explosion on board an asylum seekers' boat that's killed three and left dozens more injured. The West Australian Premier Colin Barnett says the explosion happened after the asylum seekers poured petrol on their own boat; however the full story on these events is yet to emerge, but it leads directly to our first question tonight, which comes from Alex Dore.

ALEX DORE: Yep. So my question pertains to immigration. In the past two weeks, we've seen four boatloads of suspected asylum seekers arrive and be intercepted by the Royal Australian Navy, so that brings this year's total to 276, if you include the staff. And if you compare that with 2006 under John Howard, where there were just 60, this is a marked increase. So does the government then admit that it's immigration policy has failed to deter people smuggling and that, perhaps, human traffickers will be putting a red circle around 2011 and praying for a Labor victory?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Well, I think that the first thing I'd say about this tragedy today is that I think it's a test of the government's integrity and I don't think they're doing too badly so far. We've had Bob Debus today making it very clear that the government is not going to play politics and that's a marked difference from how it was 10 years ago.

TONY JONES: So you're saying shades of children overboard in this tragedy?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Well, but I think you could tell from Malcolm Turnbull's comments today, too, that he - I mean they were very calm, sensible comments. He said that, you know, this - it's a very simple, straightforward message really, that people smuggling is very, very dangerous and it has to be stamped out. Well, I think a lot of people would agree with that and the thing to say, I think, is that the Australian public does want its borders protected and it does want its government to take steps to protect its borders but it doesn't want people's human rights violated in the process.

TONY JONES: Sophie Mirabella.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, you're right. Today has been very tragic and governments need to do whatever they can to fulfil a very basic responsibility they have, which is to protect their borders. That's what the population demands and when policies are made and put into place that provide additional incentives for people smugglers, you've got to imagine that there will be an increase in people smuggling and that's what's happened, particularly since September last year. We've seen a huge increase in boats and huge increase in illegal people because the government changed its policy. It's not about playing politics, it's about...

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: An increase. Not a huge increase, an increase.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, a significant increase. Fourteen - we've had 14 boats since last September and over 340 people and the question has to be asked, are those additional changes to policy: making the appeals process easier; downgrading border protection from Defence to Customs; taking $50 million away from Customs, all of that sends out messages that says Australia is an easy target. And what that does is put vulnerable people into a very dangerous situation.

TONY JONES: Okay. On that note, do you accept that it's too early to jump to any conclusions about what happened on that boat?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Oh, today it's - we don't know the full details. Of course it is and...

TONY JONES: Your colleague in Western Australia appeared to think he knew all the details. He's actually accused refugees on the boat of pouring petrol on the boat and essentially starting the fire themselves.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, Colin Barnett had his own sources of information and he made those comments. Far be it from me to be Colin's keeper but today's tragedy, I think, has left many of us in shock and we do need to wait for the full information. And, of course, Tony, that's separate to the actual policy of protecting borders and how do we do that in a real way and in a meaningful way that satisfies the demands of the Australian people, and that does it properly.

TONY JONES: All right. Let's hear from Chris Bowen.

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, there's a couple of important points here and I would disagree with the premise of the question. We're seeing an increase in refugee movements around the world that's being caused by great tumult around the world: Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Somalia, et cetera. So all around the world we're seeing an increase in refugee movements. There's been about 30,000 into Great Britain, 30,000 into Italy, and Australia won't be exempt from that. Now, I would reject also the premise of Sophie's comments that somehow this softening, or what she would describe as a softening, has led to the increase in refugee movements. I mean, the vast majority of refugee movements into Australia and around the world come in on aeroplanes; people with valid visas who come in and then claim refugee status. And the answer to the refugee problem is not to demonise refugees. It is not to send them to an isolated island in the Pacific. It's not to lock up kids, and it's not to have a pernicious policy of temporary protection visas which take away people's permanency and leave them in a Neverland of continuing uncertainty, which we've gotten rid of and I say it's a very good thing we've gotten rid of it, because it does treat people...

JOHN ELLIOTT: I think you're absolutely wrong.

CHRIS BOWEN: It treats people with common decency and that's what we should do as a nation.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I'd say the smugglers are testing out your government.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well...

JOHN ELLIOTT: And there's going to be a hell of a lot more. What Howard did was very good. They all stopped coming. Now, they're all coming again. Now, unless you take tough action, they will keep turning up.

CATHERINE DEVENY: No. No. Wait. Listen to me. They're just saying, "I'm just going to get on a boat and go across these incredibly dangerous waters"...

JOHN ELLIOTT: And I agree.

CATHERINE DEVENY: ..."to go to a place where I can't speak the language, I won't have a job and my children will probably be dealing with the emotional trauma that I've had to go through to get here." These are human beings. Australians or not Australians, we're talking 340, 350 people. That's not a lot of people. There's plenty of room. Get them in...

JOHN ELLIOTT: And all of a sudden it's growing, Catherine. It's growing.

CATHERINE DEVENY: ...assess them properly and see if they...

JOHN ELLIOTT: It's growing.

CATHERINE DEVENY: ...and there's very few of these people are illegal...

TONY JONES: Just call a truce for a moment, because we actually have another question along these lines. I'm going to bring that questioner in now. It's Maureen Reddie and we can continue this discussion, but let's hear from Maureen first.

MAUREEN REDDIE: Australia is involved in fighting the war in Afghanistan. Should we therefore not be more sympathetic towards those people who are fleeing the war to our country, once we establish their authenticity?

TONY JONES: I'll repeat her question, because I have it in front of me. Seeing we're involved in fighting a war in Afghanistan, should Australia not be sympathetic to those who are fleeing a war torn country once we've ascertained their authenticity?

JOHN ELLIOTT: I do. I'm very keen to see these refugees come into Australia. I'm not against that and I think, you know, the problem with the boat people is many of them die getting here. I agree with the lady. I think it'd be fantastic to bring in Afghanistan refugees. I've got no problem with bringing people into this country. I think it's very, very good. But what we don't - I mean, in the end the government is responsible for bringing refugees in. What we don't want is boat people turning up. You've got to keep them away. They're actually getting ahead in the queue and they shouldn't be. There's a lot of help...

CATHERINE DEVENY: But these people are desperate. They're desperate. They're living in poverty.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well...

CATHERINE DEVENY: They're living in fear. They're living...

JOHN ELLIOTT: No, but in the end the government has to determine how many people it wants to come into the country, who they are and I believe this government is doing the same good job that the Liberals did. You want people with skills and all that. Okay, you've got to bring in refugees. We ought to be deciding which refugees come. You can't have these smugglers sending them in on boats and look at the people. Now, why - what I can't understand about today is that some of these lunatics on the boats, you know, apparently set the boat on fire.

TONY JONES: Okay. Well, we don't know.

(ALL TALK AT ONCE).

CATHERINE DEVENY: Why would they do that?

CHRIS BOWEN: We don't know that and we...

TONY JONES: That is an accusation...

CATHERINE DEVENY: That doesn't make sense.

TONY JONES: That is an accusation from the West Australian Premier.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Was it?

TONY JONES: Let's hear from the government, though, in response to what you're saying, John Elliott.

CHRIS BOWEN: Just on the last point, if we learnt anything from the children overboard affair, let us not jump to a conclusion about what happened in a distant sea...

JOHN ELLIOTT: No, I agree with that.

CHRIS BOWEN: ...a long way away. The only people who know what happened are the sailors and the people on the boat. Let's get all the evidence and let's not demonise people. Let's not jump to conclusions. It may be what happened. We just don't know, and let's not go down that road. We've been down that road once before, much to the nation's regret.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Was the boat that they were on today being supervised by the Navy or something?

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yes, it was. It was.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, it was. Yes, it was. It was under escort.

CATHERINE DEVENY: It was seaworthy...

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Can I just add - can I just add to this, there's another dimension to this story that we've not mentioned so far and that's Indonesia, and the Foreign Minister Stephen Smith has been, as I understand it, quietly, diplomatically trying to prompt the Indonesian President to pass legislation which will...

JOHN ELLIOTT: He loves Australia.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: ...enable the Indonesia police to act more decisively. Hopefully this tragedy will encourage the Indonesians to act.

TONY JONES: Okay. Well, let's hear from our original questioner, Alex Dore. He wants to get back in on the action.

ALEX DORE: Well, I'd just like to respond to Sophie and Chris, because, you know, you've really brought up that humanitarian argument again. You know, it's the humane thing, and I think those are shared values and I don't think - I think it's actually quite offensive to suggest that maybe John Howard didn't share those same interests. You know, that he didn't believe that human rights were important but, because, you know, it's...

CATHERINE DEVENY: How old are you?

ALEX DORE: Sophie...

CATHERINE DEVENY: Were you there? Did you read the papers?

ALEX DORE: Sophie...

CATHERINE DEVENY: Did you see them sewing up their lips? Did you...

ALEX DORE: Sophie...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Be quiet, Catherine. He's very good, this young boy.

ALEX DORE: Sorry.

CATHERINE DEVENY: He's on your team.

ALEX DORE: Catherine - Catherine - no, but my point is that they - he didn't sew them up. But, also, I mean the fact is that obviously every government's policy, they try to keep it humane, but the fact is that the marked dec - increase, rather, in people smuggling has coincided exactly with the policy brought in by the Rudd government. Now, you can say - argue as much as you like that it's increased all over the world, but the fact is that it is very - maybe indicative that it's the Rudd government's policies which have led to the increase, when it's so - coincided in such a way.

TONY JONES: Okay. Okay. I want to hear from other members of the audience if anyone has questions. First of all I want to hear Chris Bowen on that.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, you could also say that when the Howard Government introduced temporary protection visas they caused an increase in the refugee numbers coming to Australia, because they went up at exactly the same time. Now, that would be a ridiculous argument, but you could make that same argument. Now, when you have refugees going up around the world and then down again, Australia follows the trend. We always do and what is important is that you deal with it in a firm way but a humane and compassionate way at the same time. We've got the balance right. We made these changes some time ago, but the increases have come as they've come around the world and that's just the facts. That's the empirical facts.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Are you going to get tougher if these boats keep coming?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It's not about numbers, it's about the integrity of our immigration system. We had one of the most generous humanitarian programs. We were second in the world per capita in bringing in refugees on a humanitarian basis. It's not about that. It's about being grown up and saying, "Hey, guys. This is the Federal Government. Do we have the ability to help people come to this country in an orderly way or will we give the green light to criminals to organise this on a worldwide basis and bring people?" And the problem is only going to get worse with the economic situation. You will have a lot of people, for economic reasons, call them economic refugees, who will want to go to another part of the world. So we need, as a nation, to get this right. And, Chris, you said the government had got the balance right. I'd like to know, you know, if you're still going to be saying that six months down the track when the figures could possibly go up.

TONY JONES: Okay. Can I just interpose a question here, Sophie Mirabella. Does the opposition still advocate for the Pacific solution, a question I asked on Monday, your deputy leader a number of times.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I noticed. I noticed. You've been asking that question quite a bit. Well, there is...

TONY JONES: But is it still your policy? That's the reason I'm asking.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, it's not and I think Julie made that clear and there is no need for the Pacific solution, because there is offshore processing in the Indian Ocean so it's not an issue.

TONY JONES: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what about temporary protection visas and what about kids in detention? I mean, would you go back to the old policies there? That's - I mean, I think this is a valid debate for the Australian people to be asking questions.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: You know...

TONY JONES: Okay. Can I just interrupt, because we actually do have some people with their hands up now. We'll just go to this lady with the scarf.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, I'm just curious because you say that you won't allow - you call them queue jumpers - if they come on the boat, but what happens if they're coming from Afghanistan and they can't actually get a visa or get the money to come across to Australia. There's no actual, you know, institution to actually help them get to Australia except through boats or through illegal ways.

TONY JONES: John Elliott, I imagine that's a question for you and can I just add something to it, which is that the great Tampa incident that we know about so well, it turned out most of the people on that boat were Afghans, most of them Hazaras, and most of them fleeing a very violent conflict and oppression. So I just ask you to consider that as part of the question.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, my view is that the government - Sophie said the last government, and I don't think this government is any different, is happy to bring refugees into Australia who come from very difficult situations but we've got to control it and we can't let smugglers do it. That's my issue. And you're saying they all come in through Qantas. Well, Qantas have just dropped their profit from 500 to between 100 and 200 million, so I think it's - you know, I don't think we can ever tolerate people jumping the queue. I think you've got to go through an orderly process and the government has to show the strength to do that. That's the issue.

TONY JONES: All right. Let's hear from Catherine Deveny.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Look, I mean, it's such a tricky one. I'm sorry, I just can't see Australia in here. I can just see people who are just under such extraordinary pressure to get out of a horrific situation and they'll do anything. They'll risk their lives, they'll risk the lives of their children to get to a safe place and I don't think that people smugglers - they are - there's like on - you know, there's one person smuggler, one people smuggler, who's like bringing all these people in and we - we're kind of - we're stopping these 350 people coming or we're demonising these 350 people and I agree exactly with what you said up there. These people are economically disadvantaged and that is showing us - and, you're right, Sophie. We've got to make sure that we've got a really - a fine and fabulous - and a migration system that we can be really proud of that shows that we're a compassionate nation. We are not a bunch of provincial racists who are saying we will - you have to stand in a queue and you have to jump through these certain hoops and you guys are the only ones. We will tell you...

JOHN ELLIOTT: So you're happy for 100 boats to come in, are you, next week?

CATHERINE DEVENY: Oh, yeah, because that's exactly what's going to happen. I can just see those 100 boats coming across those waters.

TONY JONES: Okay. Hang on. Final word to Sophie Mirabella and I'm going to move on to a different subject.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I think we've also got to ask the question why are so many people prepared to risk their lives in leaky boats when there are quite legitimate immigration processing points in other parts of the world. Last week, 40 were being processed by the UNHCR in Indonesia and were caught trying to leave Indonesia to try and come to Australia because they were sick and tired of the long process. So there are other points, legitimate legal points, such as in Indonesia, but people don't want to go through those hoops because they know, particularly with changes that the Rudd Government's making, that it's easier.

TONY JONES: I'm just going to interrupt you there. I was going to move on but someone just shot their hand up in the audience. I'd like just to hear from that person and then we will move on.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. So they were sick and tired of the long and arduous process that's not getting them out of their seriously dangerous situation that they're in with their children and loved ones. Clearly there's something wrong with this. What we're talking about is having a coherent, free-flowing system that assists them and says do this, it's safe. It's legal. When you get there you won't get put in a detention centre, which I disagree with - either point. But it says use me because this is functional. Don't get on a boat and risk everything because this exists. Most probably if they even know it exists and is offered wherever they are, then they get into it and they find that it's a long and arduous process that doesn't suit anyone, so clearly there still needs to be a solution found for this.

TONY JONES: Okay. I'm going to take that as a comment. We have to move on to other subjects. All right. Remember that Q&A is live. It's interactive. And send us your questions via SMS: 197 55 222 or go to our website: abc.net.au/qanda. Send us a message or even a video question, like this one from Ruth Medd in Sydney.

RUTH MEDD: A recent national poll has found that there is broad support for a government funded paid parental leave scheme. Will the Government give an undertaking to introduce this in the budget?

TONY JONES: Okay. I'm going to start with John Elliott here again. Will the government...

CATHERINE DEVENY: That's hilarious.

TONY JONES: Should the government...

CATHERINE DEVENY: I think he's exactly the person you should be starting with.

TONY JONES: Should the government...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Thank you, Catherine.

TONY JONES: Should the government find money for a paid parental leave system.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I've had five children and none of my wives have behaved like that.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Unfortunately, they weren't able to chew through the restraints.

JOHN ELLIOTT: But I find it quite amazing. But, you know, the government is going to have huge deficits and I just think this thing has to go out the window. I'm going to talk about...

CATHERINE DEVENY: That is outrageous.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I'm going to talk about the deficits if we get a question later, because my view is the government, by June next year, will be 200 billion in debt and our triple A rating may disappear.

TONY JONES: Okay. Well...

JOHN ELLIOTT: So we don't want - we don't want paid maternity leave. What a joke.

TONY JONES: We will hear more of that later. Chris Bowen?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the question asked, will the government put paid parental leave in the budget, as much as I'd like to, I'm not going to announce what's in the budget tonight.

TONY JONES: Do you know the answer?

CHRIS BOWEN: If I did, I'd get a call from the Treasurer, I think, about 10.30, asking me what I'd done.

TONY JONES: Do you know the answer?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, everybody around the cabinet table...

TONY JONES: Hang on. Do you know the answer?

CHRIS BOWEN: Everybody around the - I'm going to answer you. Everybody around the cabinet table is a supporter of paid parental leave. We put it on the agenda by starting the process of the Productivity Commission Inquiry. I think paid parental leave has broad support, as the question said, not only in the community, but in the government. Of course it does. Now, the question is whether you can afford it, how you do it, the process which you undertake, et cetera, which we've been working through in the context of the budget. There are a lot of calls on the budget. We've got a lot of things that we need to do.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Oh, God, this is - you know, what are we sitting in parliament here? This is...

TONY JONES: Give him a go, John.

CHRIS BOWEN: A lot of demands on the budget. A lot of calls for government action. All legitimate. Every minister who comes...

JOHN ELLIOTT: So the answer is no, you're not going to do it.

CHRIS BOWEN: Every minister who comes before the cabinet and the expenditure review committee has a valid case for everything they want to fund, but we need to work through it, prioritise it and the Treasurer, Wayne, will be making his announcements on budget night.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Oh, congratulations. A wonderful political speech.

CHRIS BOWEN: Excellent. Thank you.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You told us nothing.

TONY JONES: You do know the answer, then?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'm a member of the expenditure review committee of the government and the cabinet and we're working through the issue.

TONY JONES: Do you know whether this budget can actually afford a paid parental leave system.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that would be to answer the question and announce what's in the budget, which I'm not going to do. I know you'd like me to. I know you'd like me...

TONY JONES: Not really. It might just indicate you're prepared to go even further into deficit.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, no. Look, there are - as I say...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, they don't seem to care, do they? They just spent 42 billion; let the banks borrow 50 on the back of their thing. It's unbelievable.

CATHERINE DEVENY: The bottom line is Australia is one of only two countries in the western world that does not have paid parental leave. The other one is America. Canada has 50 weeks, the UK has 39 weeks. The People's Republic of Congo has 15 weeks. Now, if they can cough up 15 weeks of paid parental leave, I think Australia should. It's overdue. It's about bloody time. It costs $450 million a year and it's been shown time and time again to benefit mothers, fathers, babies and the economy. It's as simple as that. It's a cost...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, you've had your three...

TONY JONES: All right. All right. All right. Okay.

CATHERINE DEVENY: It's a cost saving...

JOHN ELLIOTT: You've had your three children. You'll get nothing out of this unless you have some more.

TONY JONES: All right. And you've both had your three minutes. Let's go to Sophie Mirabella.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Thank you. Thank you, Tony. Well, I don't understand why the government won't introduce it. It was a promise. They said it was going to happen. It's only $450 million. The opposition...

CATHERINE DEVENY: Was that their - what was that that did that - the research...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: The Productivity Commission.

CHRIS BOWEN: Productivity Commission.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I haven't seen the final report. None of us. We saw the draft in November.

CATHERINE DEVENY: I have.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Oh, lucky you.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yeah. So it's...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I should become a comedian and just we'll swap jobs.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yeah, we get stuff leaked.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: But the important thing to note is we had a $10 billion stimulus package that didn't work, a $42 billion stimulus package that didn't work, over $40 billion - was it 42 or 43 for the broadband that they haven't worked out the details? They've got an inquiry into it. Now, when you're throwing that much money around, surely you would think on this very important symbolic issue...

CATHERINE DEVENY: And overdue.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: ...that the government could come to the party, because it does have to be said, though, that Australia is quite generous in its benefits to families and if you measure it as a proportion of GDP, we are second in the OECD...

CATHERINE DEVENY: It's still not good enough. No, it is still not good enough.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: No.

CATHERINE DEVENY: If men were staying home looking after babies, they'd be on $100,000 a year. They'd get superannuation. They'd get time off. They'd get paid...

TONY JONES: Okay. Okay. Thank you, Catherine. I'd just like to hear Chris Bowen respond to that. I mean, are those figures correct?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well...

TONY JONES: Is it $450 million and, if so surely...

CATHERINE DEVENY: Cheap as chips. He's got it in his wallet. Get it now. $450 bucks.

CHRIS BOWEN: I wish I did. Look, the...

JOHN ELLIOTT: He's had his go. He's given us a political speech on the subject.

CHRIS BOWEN: I think you've had a few goes, John.

JOHN ELLIOTT: He's told us nothing.

CHRIS BOWEN: The Productivity Commission Report does have those sorts of figures in it. Now, it is, nevertheless, a significant amount of money. Governments don't rush into it. Now, our promise was that we'd put it on the agenda for a Productivity Commission Inquiry. That's exactly what we've done. We didn't say we'd have it in by 2009 or 2010. We said we'd have a Productivity Commission Inquiry and we'd work through the issues with the community. Exactly what we're doing. Exactly what the Howard Government failed to do.

TONY JONES: Okay. While we're talking politics, let's move to a very different question, on politics however, from Mark Bingham.

MARK BINGHAM: This one is probably to you, John. What is Malcolm Turnbull's position in supporting or not supporting Julie Bishop as Deputy Leader, and is he the leader of the so-called Big Swinging Dicks Group.

TONY JONES: A small note of explanation for anyone who might be confused by that reference to swinging male genitals. It was reported this week that a group of Malcolm Turnbull supporters who call themselves the Big Swinging et cetera et cetera, are trying to destabilise the Deputy Leader Julie Bishop so, actually, let's go to Stephen Crittenden first.

JOHN ELLIOTT: He wouldn't have a clue.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Try me.

TONY JONES: Do you find it strange that any group in the modern era would actually go under that name, just to start with, in politics?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: You're talking Australian politics. I think it's quite believable. I have to say I heard Michelle Grattan on Radio National Breakfast this morning and she made perfect - it might have been yesterday morning. She made perfect sense to me that Malcolm Turnbull is in New South Wales and Joe Hockey is on the other side of the harbour and he's likely to be the only other obvious candidate. It's not a likely thing that we're going to get a leader and a deputy leader who are both from the same city in this modern day Liberal Party.

TONY JONES: Indeed, and Western Australia is a very important stronghold. Catherine Deveny?

CATHERINE DEVENY: I don't know much about it, to be honest.

TONY JONES: Yes.

CATHERINE DEVENY: And, you know, that's the truth. I mean, I could, you know, mouth off as much so but...

TONY JONES: But it does raise the obvious question that I just put to Stephen, which is why would any group of the 21st Century of politicians go under the name of the Big Swinging et cetera...

CATHERINE DEVENY: I must say that I kind of - I like their frankness. I like the fact that they're not trying to veil their misogyny in some kind of, you know, kind of vague, tokenistic, you know, gender equality thing. I think, you know, say it as they see it. Big Swinging Dick sounds like a great name of a band for me. Actually, a great political party. I have a big swinging dick and I vote.

TONY JONES: Sophie...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Speak for yourself, Catherine.

CATHERINE DEVENY: I'm not talking about you, Sophie.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: No. No. No.

CATHERINE DEVENY: No.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Thanks.

TONY JONES: Sophie. Sophie Mirabella?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: You're going to have to get on board.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, it's great material for a comedian, but there's no such group.

TONY JONES: Are they...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I've been in Canberra for seven years...

CATHERINE DEVENY: (Indistinct)

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: ...and I have not heard of this group calling themselves the Big Swinging whatevers.

TONY JONES: Is it because you've simply not been invited to join?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Look, if there were 10 of those men swinging around in Canberra, you'd notice.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Yes, but it's really funny because it's so unbelievable. And what's unbelievable about it is I cannot imagine any single politician who'd wake up on Sunday morning, watch Insiders - it's a good program - and then say, "Oh, I've changed my mind about my assessment about a politician." It just doesn't ring like the politics I know. It's a bit of an alternative reality.

TONY JONES: They'd wait and see how they went on Q&A, in fact.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: That's it. Yes.

TONY JONES: Let's hear from John Elliott.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I think it's just a load of, you now, poppycock. I'm still fairly...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Yeah, I thought you'd like it. You'd be able to run that in your column tomorrow.

CATHERINE DEVENY: He's here for three weeks. Try the field.

JOHN ELLIOTT: There's no rumours in Melbourne that that is what's going on. I mean usually you hear these things or I seem to.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It hasn't hit the discussion in the Melbourne Club or anything.

JOHN ELLIOTT: No. No. No. But I don't think it's on at all and I think she's doing a marvellous job. She's a good woman, actually.

TONY JONES: So what you're saying is it would be a very poor show.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, you'd normally - you'd normally hear from someone that, you know, there's something on the move and I haven't heard a thing so I don't think - I think it's...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It's bizarre.

JOHN ELLIOTT: It's the usual nonsense of the press creating stuff.

TONY JONES: Chris Bowen?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, I wouldn't...

TONY JONES: Have you seen any...

JOHN ELLIOTT: How would you know, you're Labor?

TONY JONES: Are you saying there are no such groups in Labor?

CHRIS BOWEN: I was about to say I'm not an expert on internal Liberal Party machinations.

JOHN ELLIOTT: No.

CHRIS BOWEN: I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised. I think Julie Bishop has had a difficult time. She's had...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Oh, no. Oh, let's start.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Oh, come on. Be generous.

CHRIS BOWEN: No. No. Well, she's had a difficult time. She's had - she's had real issues as Shadow Treasurer. She's been, I think - I'm biased - I think a poor performer as Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister but you get these things in opposition. You get these - when things are going well, you get these issues arising. I found the name quite bizarre. I mean, I've been involved in stoushes, as you do, internally. Go around calling yourself like that is quite juvenile, if that's what's happening. I don't know if it is or not, but if that is really happening, it's quite juvenile and is, I suppose, quite disappointing.

TONY JONES: Okay. Well, we'll move on. You're watching Q&A, the live and interactive forum where you get to ask the questions. Now, remember, if you'd like to be part of the live audience, you can log on and register at abc.net.au/qanda.

Our next question comes from the audience. It's from Christina Taylor.

CHRISTINA TAYLOR: Okay. John Safran has faced widespread disapproval after being crucified for his upcoming, but probably very informative television program. Following Pope Benedict's claim, Cardinal George Pell agreed that condom use leads to higher AIDS infection rates and encourages irresponsibility. This is probably against the mis - sorry, the Misleading Statement Act in section 207 of the Crime Act. Looking at John Safran and Cardinal Pell's actions, which of the two appears more satirical and offensive?

TONY JONES: Okay. Let's start with Stephen Crittenden. Can you take us through this, because there are several aspects to this. The first strand is that the satirist filmmaker John Safran had himself crucified or an imitation of crucifixion but with actual nails going through his hands and feet in the Philippines, offending, evidently, some people in the local village.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Publicity stunt. Maybe a very effective one. I mean John Safran has made, I guess a career out of exploring the more extreme ends of religious experience. I'm not sure that it will tell him much about religion or spirituality or anything like that to be nailed to the cross, though. I think it will be interesting to see whether it's played on TV. Whether it's screened next Easter, because I suspect that it would cause a furore if it was.

TONY JONES: Okay, the other half of the question was about Archbishop Pell and his support of the admonition - the Pope's admonition of condom use in Africa.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Sure.

TONY JONES: And the questioner is essentially asking which is worse?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Well, George Pell...

TONY JONES: Morally.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Well, George Pell, unlike Safran, is a serious person and actually, I mean, to be fair to Pell - I mean there'd be a lot of things to criticise about all this and I'll come to that in the moment, but he raised a very interesting point in what he said. He compared Thailand and the Philippines and there's actually a genuinely interesting health, scientific, public health conundrum. They are both countries with relatively similar populations and the difference in the HIV rate is extraordinary. Off the top of my head it's something like 300,000 people in Thailand and 10,000 people in the Philippines. As people of science, I think we have to be open to the possibility that more research might show that George is correct, that people in the Philippines are more conservative, they are towing the line on Catholic doc - look, it could be a range of things that needs more work. Can I just say something else about it? I think this endless attempt to talk down condom efficacy in relation to AIDS is doing tremendous damage to the church in a particular area and that is the public - the popular culture perception that the Catholic Church is an enemy of science. I mean, I don't know how many people know that Copernicus was a monk and Gregor Mendel was a monk and there are 35 craters on the moon named after Jesuit astronomers and the Jesuits virtually invented seismology and on and on. The Catholic Church was deeply involved in the creation of science, of western science, and there's a level on which this does terrible damage to that great Catholic tradition.

TONY JONES: Let's hear from Sophie Mirabella.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, I wouldn't condemn either act or either comment because I am a strong supporter of freedom of speech.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: True.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: And if Safran wants to nail himself to anything for his programs or for whatever other reason, that's fine, and I think George Pell raises some interesting comments. It's in line with the current ideology out of the Catholic Church and it's up to other people to take on the debate, take on the argument and argue against him. I don't think either of them should be condemned.

TONY JONES: Catherine Deveny?

CATHERINE DEVENY: What's more offensive? George Pell. Thank you very much and good night. Who's next? Without a shadow of a doubt. It's just - it is a - it's a death wish to not - to tell people not to use condoms in order to prevent the spread of AIDS. I mean that's been the number one thing that's prevented it here in Australia. I mean it's no different. Abstinence doesn't work. It just doesn't. It's as simple as that.

TONY JONES: Chris Bowen?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, I would agree that nobody should be condemned for their views. I've got to say at the John Safran issue...

CATHERINE DEVENY: But what it they're killing people?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, just a second. I'll get to - I'll get to that. On John Safran, I just don't get it. I don't understand why anybody would want to crucify themselves. I don't see any entertainment or educational value. I won't be watching, even though it's on the ABC. I just don't get it and I don't understand it. If he really wants to do it, well, fair enough, but I just don't see the value in doing it. On Cardinal Pell, again, with all due respect to him, I would disagree. I think the argument that contraception promotes promiscuity is, frankly, outdated and silly. Boys will be boys, girls will be girls and contraception is going to make no difference to that, but it might save lives.

TONY JONES: Okay. Let's hear from John Elliott.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I agree entirely with you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, I must be wrong.

CATHERINE DEVENY: But Father Bob was good though. I mean, Father Bob, who works with John Safran, he said, you know, he's great.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You've had your go on this. Get on to something useful.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Oh, look, get over yourself.

TONY JONES: Okay. We are going to get onto something new. We have another question in the audience and it's from Nina Funnell.

NINA FUNNELL: Okay, my question is for John Elliott and your views on...

TONY JONES: One moment, Nina. We'll just have to...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Can't hear you, my love.

NINA FUNNELL: Sorry. Okay. My question is for John Elliott and your view on traditional good manners. And, look, while I'm all for ethical interaction between the sexes, I'm curious to know whether traditional good manners, such as standing up for women or opening a door for a woman, it's actually about encouraging ethical interaction between sexes or whether it's actually about morally sanitising us back to the 1950s when women were treated as the fragile, second sex.

TONY JONES: John Elliott?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, if you look up my website, jdereport, that's jdereport. The ABC don't let you advertise but I've got a section...

TONY JONES: Okay, we know you've got a website, John.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I've got a section on manners. I stayed with Prince Charles many years ago and I had to go to Sandringham to stay with him and he was up in Kent and the equerry, or whatever he was called, of good manners, because I was Australian, he came down to spend an hour with me about how I should behave and after he'd been there an hour I thanked him very much and told him I hadn't learnt a thing. I did learn one thing, that you should, when you get a hot meal, start immediately you're served, whereas when you have a cold meal you wait for everybody at the table to be served. And Australian's don't do that and it's very logical because if you get a hot meal you're getting cold while you're waiting for the other party.

TONY JONES: Did you get a hot or cold meal, by the way?

JOHN ELLIOTT: I got a - I was sitting on the right of Prince Charles and I got served first, because that's what you do. You serve the person on the right first, then the host, the person on the left of the host, then they go round the table that way. So I was halfway through my meal by the time Charles got his.

TONY JONES: Okay. It's...

JOHN ELLIOTT: But I have to say, I think...

TONY JONES: Go to the actual point of the question, if you can.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Righto. The point of the question is I think the community are becoming very selfish and everybody is thinking about themselves and they are not thinking about other people. I got on the tram. I had to go up Collins Street three days ago, and here's a pregnant woman got on the tram and here were these two guys in their thirties sitting down. I was standing up. And they wouldn't - they didn't get up and give her a seat. I think that's appalling. So I told one of them to get up and give her a seat and he did. And then I see people walking down the street at lunch time who buy a salad roll or something and they're eating their lunch in the street, walking down the street. It's appalling. One, it's bad - one, it's bad for your digestion. You should sit down when you're eating. Then we have all these people that sit there and watch tele eating. Now, it's a communal thing. Having a meal at night or with the family, I think, is very important.

TONY JONES: Okay.

JOHN ELLIOTT: So I really think it would be a great thing if we tried to think of others more, and that's what it is. It's a very selfish attitude and I do think we've got to go back and look at some of the manners. You can all buy Debretts. It comes out in England. They have a whole book on manners.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right.

JOHN ELLIOTT: They also do the peerage on all the...

TONY JONES: Thank you, John.

JOHN ELLIOTT: ...all the people who are dukes and my name's there...

TONY JONES: Thank you, John. Thank you very much.

JOHN ELLIOTT: ...because I married somebody who was originally a duke.

TONY JONES: If you are sitting at home with a knife and fork in your hand and a plate in your lap...

JOHN ELLIOTT: You hold it that way.

TONY JONES: ...just put your knife and fork down for a moment.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You've got to learn how to hold it.

TONY JONES: Okay.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You don't hold it like a pencil.

TONY JONES: Let's hear from Catherine Deveny.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Oh, look, if you've got a knife and fork at home, send the knife in. I've got something I know I'd like to do with it. Look, it's a...

TONY JONES: Pick up on the issue...

CATHERINE DEVENY: It's as simple as...

TONY JONES: ...in the actual question.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Okay. So you're talking about manners and it's just divisive. It's as simple as that. It's a (indistinct). It's a way of dividing people and dividing classes and dividing cultures. Not all cultures eat the same, John. Wake up. Chopsticks, hands, different ways we hold things. There's not one way of eating.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You use hands at home, do you?

CATHERINE DEVENY: I tell you what, I just put my face straight down in the plate and eat like that.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Lick the soup bowl, do you?

CATHERINE DEVENY: No. No. It isn't...

TONY JONES: No. No. Hang on. Let's go back to the question.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yeah, it - and that's what I'm saying.

TONY JONES: ...because the question was about whether good manners are really about morally sanitising society back to the 1950s when women were considered the fragile, second sex.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yes, it is.

TONY JONES: That was the question.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Yes, and that's what I'm saying.

TONY JONES: Okay.

CATHERINE DEVENY: It's a simple as that. He's saying it's about - it's about people, and people being together. It's about - that's about dividing people. Sitting down and eating is about having a good time and getting it into your mouth. It doesn't matter what you use to get it in there.

TONY JONES: Let's hear from Sophie Mirabella.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I think John raises a very interesting point. Having manners means you're thinking about other people and the rudeness, whether...

CATHERINE DEVENY: No, it doesn't. It means that you're...

TONY JONES: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Have some manners.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You've had your go, Catherine.

CATHERINE DEVENY: You're sticking to rules.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Just sit back. You've had your go. You're making no sense at all.

TONY JONES: Sophie?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Yes. Hey, we have rules that govern everything we do every day. Rules and laws aren't that bad.

TONY JONES: But what happens to them...

CATHERINE DEVENY: But some are.

TONY JONES: But what happens to them in question time in parliament, by the way?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, you - at least you watch question time.

TONY JONES: Yes, that's true. Fair enough. Okay. No. No. (Indistinct)

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: But it is important. Whether it's, you know, mums jostling with cars picking up the kids and, you know, overtaking everyone; whether it's road rage; whether it's on public transport in the street - rudeness really does get to people, particularly older people or frail people. There's nothing wrong with having manners, and I think it should be an integral part of how we interrelate with everyone, not just something you do when the cameras are on. Not just something you do when the aeroplane hatch closes and you reduce to tears a RAAF air stewardess. You've got to have manners...

TONY JONES: Oh, nicely...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: ...both privately and publicly.

TONY JONES: Our questioner still has her hand up, so let's go back to the audience?

NINA FUNNELL: See I think that thinking about other people is actually about ethical interaction, whereas thinking about good manners is actually about behaving like your grandparents and I think that you can have ethical interaction without having to throw back to 1950's behaviour. I think that you can treat other people with respect without worrying about whether or not you're using your knife and fork in the appropriate manner or what have you.

TONY JONES: Let's hear from Stephen Crittenden.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: I think there's a lot to be said for our grandparent's generation. They were a great generation. They cared about other people and they weren't selfish.

CATHERINE DEVENY: All of them?

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Well, a lot of them did. I had a sort of a chat to some of my colleagues at the ABC and John's column really struck a chord. One of the things that people wanted to talk to me about was people's behaviour in restaurants and how much it's deteriorated and let me share my biggest bugbear. I observe, constantly, people being fed - you know, sometimes the service is terrible and the meal is poor but on the whole, right, people being fed lovely meals by very nice people waiting on them and they pay the bill and the whole table will get up and walk to the door without so much as acknowledging the person who served them. If there's an open kitchen and the person who's cooked the meal is 10 feet away, won't say a word. They walk - I think that is the most disgraceful behaviour.

TONY JONES: While we were talking a web question has come. We've got a web question from Dave in New South Wales to John Elliott. Have you ever actually said the words pig's arse in public or private?

JOHN ELLIOTT: No. That was Steve...

CHRIS BOWEN: That would be bad manners.

JOHN ELLIOTT: That was Steve. Absolutely bad manners.

CHRIS BOWEN: That would be bad manners, yes.

JOHN ELLIOTT: That was Steve Vizard when he created rubbery figures in the eighties. I don't know which channel it was on. It was probably on your bloody channel here: the ABC. I don't know where it was. And he created that word and he had me smoking and drinking beer and saying that, which people then depicted me as and it's totally incorrect.

CATHERINE DEVENY: You did walk in and say, "Can I smoke in here?" though.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Yes. Well, that's right. I like that. That was the only one that was correct.

CHRIS BOWEN: It was polite to us.

JOHN ELLIOTT: So the answer is no.

TONY JONES: So you won't...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Anyway, he got his druthers.

TONY JONES: So you won't be taking up any offers from the Meat Board to do advertisements for them, because I understand you actually...

TONY JONES: Okay. It's a good time to move on. Remember, you can send your questions on the web...

JOHN ELLIOTT: You didn't ask our esteemed colleague here what he thought about manners.

TONY JONES: We can come back to him on other things. Remember you can send your questions on the web or join the studio audience and ask them yourself as many people in here are doing. So go to our website - the address is on the screen - to find out how to do it. We have a video question right now. It's from Tony Holland in Newcastle, New South Wales.

TONY HOLLAND: I was made redundant on December 22, 2008, by a new CEO. I was an exceptionally experienced manager that has since applied for over 40 positions. Julia Gillard says she will stand shoulder to shoulder with Qantas workers but government support for people like me is non-existent. How is she going to stand shoulder to shoulder with me? Thank you.

TONY JONES: Let's ask the Assistant Treasurer.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes. We're facing really tough times and unemployment has gone up and it will go up more and what we need to do is a range of things: do whatever we can to keep the unemployment rate as low as possible and do as much as possible to help people like that gentleman and it's not easy. We have significantly increased the support for people who have been retrenched. That takes some time to flow through the system but we have. There will be a lot more support, personal assistance, assistance in applying for jobs, et cetera, and in transitioning to other work if at all possible, so there will be that government support. There is that government support and what Julia Gillard said is what you would hope she would say, that we will stand with you and we will help you as much as we can. We're not...

JOHN ELLIOTT: What are you going to do?

CHRIS BOWEN: We're not pretending it's easy. We're not pretending there's a magic solution. It would be misleading if we did. Well, what we're doing is stimulating the economy.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Count the unemployed.

CHRIS BOWEN: We're supporting jobs. We're stimulating the economy. Yes. I mean, Sophie said the first stimulus package hasn't worked. She said the second stimulus package didn't work, which is quite surprising seeing it's still going on and the payments are still being made.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I think they've both worked very well. They've got Rudd a wonderful vote. You give somebody a thousand bucks every quarter, no wonder they're all happy with you.

TONY JONES: Okay. Let's stick with this question, though. I mean, this gentleman is obviously in a - he's not at the beginning of his career.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, sure.

TONY JONES: He must be reasonably close to the end of his career. He's very experienced. He's a manager. That's a very particular type of group who lose their jobs in this sort of environment and in previous recessions you don't see anything done for them.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, and that's right. It is a very tough group to deal with and I've seen this for a long time. I represented western Sydney city where unemployment is always higher than the national average and it's always older workers who, in many respects, have the hardest job in getting back into the workforce. That's why you've just got to provide as much assistance as you can, without misleading anybody. Without saying, well, we can get a job for you, because we can't. What we can do is provide assistance to that person as much as we can. Everybody will have a different outcome. Everybody will have a different answer. Everybody will deal with it in different ways. That's not the government's role to do that for them. It's the government's role to assist them as much as we can.

TONY JONES: Okay. I'm just going to go from older workers to younger workers and we have a question here from Dallas Brown.

DALLAS BROWN: Yes, thank you. The Federal Government indicates that it is encouraging employment, yet I know that many apprentices are being retrenched. Notwithstanding their financial obligations, if these young people are living at home, they are unable to obtain any Centrelink payments. And, you know, I suggest that instead of handing out $900 to all and sundry, it might be more proactive to fully subsidise the wages of these young people so that they can continue to gain qualification for their chosen trade.

TONY JONES: I'll hear the rest of the panel on this but, first, obviously to the Assistant Treasurer. Now, apprentices are like the canaries in the mineshaft in a recession. Like these older workers right at the end of the scale, at the other end of the scale these younger workers lose their jobs. Well, first of all, can you answer his question as to why they can't get Centrelink payments if they're living with their parents, as many of them are?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, it's a fair question and the questioner is right about apprentices. He's also right for another reason. We've seen before in downturns training be reduced by companies, apprentices laid off, and when the upswing comes back, when the economy returns to normal, we have a skills shortage. It goes straight back and then you find people screaming for more workers and we've laid off a generation of apprentices and that's a big problem. It's happened in downturns in the past. So we do have a scheme in place to support group training companies, who are doing it very tough. They're the people who train a lot of apprentices and if one group training company fails to provide assistance to transfer those apprentices to new employers, to new group training companies or other employers. So we are doing that. We have a very substantial...

JOHN ELLIOTT: You're not doing enough. He's very right, that gentleman.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we do have a very substantial package to support apprentices.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You're going to lose a generation of...

CHRIS BOWEN: And that's why we don't want to make the mistakes that governments of all persuasions have done in the past.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Yes.

CHRIS BOWEN: We want to learn from that experience and that's why there's this very big package to support apprentices through. Now, the Centrelink rules are the Centrelink rules about, you know, whether you live with your parents and what your financial situation is.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Change them.

CHRIS BOWEN: And that applies to everybody and we...

TONY JONES: It's a good question John Elliott raises. Should they be changed?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's a fair question and we are constantly looking at these sorts of arrangements and we have changed some already and will continue to monitor them and make changes as necessary.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I'd change those ahead of giving maternity leave to the women.

TONY JONES: Okay. Sophie Mirabella.

CATHERINE DEVENY: Maybe both.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: I think we're living in an era, where we could possibly see, just as we did with the recession we had to have, a whole generation of young people miss the boat, not work in the area they're qualified for for seven, eight, nine years. The lost generation. We'll see other older workers on the scrap heap, and that is absolutely tragic. I remember what happened last time and I think we've got to stop speaking off political party speaking notes and actually come up with some real solutions and the last question did offer real solutions, because we will have a skills shortage.

TONY JONES: Just what I've been asking...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Yes.

TONY JONES: ...the government about their solution, so what is the solution of the opposition, apart from tax cuts, which appears to be the main cure all.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Well, Tony, we have to ask the question, as well, if the government borrows money and puts future generations in debt, in serious debt, then they have a responsibility to make sure that the money they borrow is spent in the best possible way. We had the first stimulus package. It was supposed to create 75,000 jobs. The government then said, "Oh, no. We didn't mean it was going to create 75,000 jobs. It was going to support them, and so on. But I think it is a very valid issue. What does the government do to best support the economy and we have said giving out cash handouts is not the best possible way and we've seen 80 per cent of handouts to date have not been spent. They have not had the stimulatory effect. So we go back to otherwise putting that money into tax cuts. People would get the funding throughout the year. They would spend it in their corner store, down the road. It would not discriminate as spending and it would be throughout the whole year and that would have a much greater effect, possibly for less money and less debt in the future and that's a very real solution.

TONY JONES: I'd like to hear the government's response.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Sophie - Sophie, if the government came up with the program - go back to the gentleman's question - to improve the opportunity for the apprentices, I would expect the opposition to support that.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Yes, we know that. But there is a real focus on what can be done for apprentices. The other...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Well, I think one of the problems we still get in Australian politics is you spend your life arguing instead of on some issues working things out together so there is genuine support for good things in Australia and that apprentice subject is one of those and I think - you know, I really do think the problem - I see the opposition doing it. The problem is if the government come up with something, you'll tell them why it's wrong.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: No, that's not right, John.

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, yeah. Not right.

JOHN ELLIOTT: I think it's very important that in some issues, like the one the gentleman's raised...

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: Chris...

CHRIS BOWEN: No, I'm agreeing with John.

JOHN ELLIOTT: You're agreeing with me, are you?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. Even I'm agreeing.

TONY JONES: John Elliott, can I just - just to finish up that point, I mean is it your opinion that that is why Malcolm Turnbull is doing so poorly in the polls?

JOHN ELLIOTT: No, I think it's because Rudd hands out all the money. A thousand...

CHRIS BOWEN: Can I deal with Sophie's point?

JOHN ELLIOTT: A thousand bucks a quarter. And I don't think Rudd's re-election has anything to do with the performance of the government. It will be dependent on whether Obama solves the world financial crisis.

TONY JONES: Okay.

JOHN ELLIOTT: If he doesn't, Rudd will be out and if he does, Rudd will stay.

TONY JONES: Okay. I was going to Chris Bowen earlier.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes. Okay.

TONY JONES: Quick response.

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, Sophie's got this completely wrong, as does the liberal party. They say the stimulus package hasn't worked. I mean, the fact of the matter is - the empirical fact is around the world economies are going into meltdown. Unemployment is going up. Growth is going down. Australia has better figures than the rest of the world. I mean...

JOHN ELLIOTT: Thanks to Howard.

CHRIS BOWEN: No. No. We've got - we've seen our economic growth fall by less than every other comparable country in the world. Our unemployment has gone up less. I mean the unemployment rate in the United States has effectively doubled in the last 12 months. 5.3 million more people unemployed. Compare that to Australia's situation. We've done much better. Now, retail trade, which has been boosted by the stimulus packages, leads to jobs and everything we've done - as John says, everything we've done the Liberal Party has opposed and then Sophie says - no, and then Sophie says, well, let's have more tax cuts. We had tax cuts in the last budget. There are tax cuts in the next budget.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Oh, are there?

CHRIS BOWEN: And by the same token, they say the deficit is too big. Well, let's build in more, bigger tax cuts to increase the deficit. We just can't get away with this voodoo economics.

TONY JONES: Okay. Hold on because a lot of people have got their hands up at the moment. That lady up the back first.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, I just think there's a lot - too much concentration on the individual, you know, because there's a lot of apparently services to get people back into work, but there aren't an awful lot of jobs to get them back into and jobs are being lost at a far greater rate than anybody can possibly get back into them or re-train for them. So I just wonder what people would do about that. Secondly...

TONY JONES: I don't think we've got time for a second here, because there's a lot...

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, no, I just wondered why they still penalise the unemployed by not, for example, giving then transport cards or health cards. You know, it's still like it's their fault.

TONY JONES: Okay. In the little time we've got left, we have a couple of other people with their hands up. This gentleman here?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why does it always seem that whenever Labor is in power everyone loses their jobs and the country goes broke?

JOHN ELLIOTT: They spend all the money. They're hopeless.

TONY JONES: Okay. I'm going to let Chris Bowen take up that. That's a pretty obvious question for you to answer.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what you've got is the situation where the world is in its most synchronised downturn ever. I mean normally when there's a downturn - we're used to downturns. When the United States has a downturn, normally Europe's doing okay or Asia is doing okay and the rest of the world gets by. But what we've got now is the situation where effectively every country in the world is in downturn. China, our largest trading partner, their economic growth has halved in the last 12 months. Our second largest trading partner, Japan, down by 4 per cent. Our fourth largest trading partner, Singapore, the figures out yesterday, down by almost 12 per cent in a year. All that's going to impact on Australia. It is impacting on Australia and we're not going to ride it out. We're not going to be able to say, well, Australia is completely isolated. Of course we're not. What we can do, as a government, is minimise the damage. Is to stimulate the economy so we get through as best we can. That's exactly what we're doing.

TONY JONES: Okay. We're running out of time.

JOHN ELLIOTT: The problem - the problem is...

TONY JONES: We're running out of time. We can have a quick...

JOHN ELLIOTT: ...you've missed the fundamental point.

CATHERINE DEVENY: No, back in your box. Back in your box.

TONY JONES: Quick final...

CHRIS BOWEN: It's bad manners.

JOHN ELLIOTT: No. No. No. It's the...

TONY JONES: Quick final comments, starting with John Elliott obviously.

JOHN ELLIOTT: It's the first time in my lifetime we've had a crisis in credit, where the banks round the world, not in Australia, where the banks round the world couldn't lend to each other and didn't trust each other and Citibank takes 280 billion out of the government, it's a real problem. We've never seen anything like it and, unless we get the credit back running, this thing will go on for a long time.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, we agree.

TONY JONES: Catherine Deveny?

CATHERINE DEVENY: I think it's really important with what we're all going to be going through - this is going to be really hard and I've got to say that I appreciate that the government is being really honest with us, because I think that what people want now is give us the bad news. We don't care how bad it is. Just give us the truth. That's what we need. I'm hearing talk about infrastructure. I think that if people are not in jobs, we should mine this time into social infrastructure, psychological infrastructure, emotional infrastructure. If people are - if people don't have jobs, say, it's okay. We'll look after you. If you're not working, why don't you go down and help down at the school and help with readings. Why don't you come and dig holes for - I don't know, on a farm.

JOHN ELLIOTT: Thank God you're not in the parliament. That's all I can say.

CATHERINE DEVENY: If people aren't - to use this time to work in our human infrastructure, because it's going to be a bit rough but like hopefully, you know, we'll all be at the end and it will get better.

TONY JONES: Sophie Mirabella?

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It is going to be a difficult time ahead and I think that's why everyone in politics shouldn't assume that they or their party has the answers to everything and the government shouldn't knock back suggestions from the opposition. It's not true, Chris. Out of 194 pieces of legislation, the opposition has only voted against 26.

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, some pretty big ones.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It should look...

CHRIS BOWEN: The big - big main pieces of reform.

SOPHIE MIRABELLA: It should actually look at suggestions, because no one is the repository of all knowledge. You know, and we are going through difficult times. You can't micromanage and spin everything. People want substance. They don't want just the lines and that's what you, as a government, have to provide and we as an opposition have a job to do to make sure that you do your job. That's what makes better government.

TONY JONES: Okay. Final word to Stephen Crittenden.

STEPHEN CRITTENDEN: Hasn't this been a great time? Isn't it great to meet John Elliott in a mood like this? I'd just say one thing. I had a sibling, a younger sibling, who went through the Keating recession just after leaving school and it's a terrible thing to see a kid full of hope for a career have just those first few years dashed. You know job application after job application knocked back and just feeling ground down and, you know, he might have been a clown a few times tonight but we heard John Elliott make a very important speech to the Liberal Party and we heard it loud and clear.

TONY JONES: That's where we'll have to leave it, because once again we've run out of time. Please thank our panellists: Stephen Crittenden; Sophie Mirabella; Catherine Deveny; Chris Bowen; and John Elliott.

Okay. Wrap up time. Q&A will be back next Thursday when our panel will include the Deputy Liberal Leader Julie Bishop; Small Business Minister Craig Emerson; journalist David Marr; doctor and author Cindy Pan; and we're hoping Republic Party animal P.J. O'Rourke.

JOHN ELLIOTT: They won't be as good us, I don't think.

TONY JONES: So if you can be in Sydney next Thursday, I'm sure John Elliott will be in the audience. Go to our website and register to join the audience and don't forget we're still looking for mash-ups. That is short, satirical videos to show on the program, like this one from Glen Op Den Brouw in Liverpool. Good night.

With two personalities as forceful, opinionated and ideologically opposed as John Elliott and Catherine Deveny on the panel, this episode of Q&A was always going to be one to remember. The two engaged in a robust exchange of views throughout the show, prompting a flood of email traffic from viewers who were either enraged or enraptured with one or the other. The breaking news story of the tragic fire aboard a boat full of asylum seekers, coupled with the general issue of growing asylum seeker numbers, dominated the early part of the program. Alex Dore asked whether the Rudd government's policies were attracting more arrivals while Maureen Reddie suggested Australia should be more sympathetic to those fleeing the war in Afghanistan where Australians troops were fighting. A video question from Ruth Medd in Sydney raised the issue of paid parental leave, a Labor promise widely expected to be a casualty of the forthcoming Budget.Chris Bowen declined to say what the Budget would contain.

Audience member Mark Bingham raised the story of an alleged plot by Liberal MPs to depose Julie Bishop as Deputy Opposition Leader and Christina Taylor brought up two Easter-linked issues: Cardinal George Pell's endorsement of papal comments about condoms and AIDS, and comedian John Safran's crucifixion stunt in The Philippines. Nina Funnell then asked a question about manners, referring to John Elliott's widely quoted remarks about manners on his new website. John responded with a few examples of bad manners he had encountered and then denied, in response to an email question from 'Dave' in NSW, that he had ever used the expression 'pig's arse' as widely alleged. The show ended with a discussion of unemployment prompted by a video question from Tony Holland in Newcastle, NSW, an experienced manager made redundant late last year and still unable to find work.

You can watch a video or read the transcript of the complete program from this page (see above) or watch Q&A on iView. The Q&A video is published here at about 2am Friday morning while the transcript and iView editions are published about 2pm each Friday afternoon.

Since entering Parliament as the member for Prospect, in the western suburbs of Sydney, in 2004, Chris Bowen has risen rapidly through the ranks of the Labor Party to become a Minister after just three years as an MP. He is now Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Competition Policy and Consumer Affairs.

Chris was born in the western suburbs in 1973 and attended local schools before going to the University of Sydney, where he gained a Bachelor of Economics degree.

Joining the ALP at 15, Chris worked for State and federal politicians and for the Finance Sector Union before entering Parliament. He also spent many years on the Fairfield Council and was mayor at the age of 25.Chris is married to Bec and they have two children, Grace and Max.

Sophie Mirabella is one of the Liberal Party’s most committed ideological warriors. Born Sophie Panopoulos in Melbourne in 1968, she has spent much of her adult life in the political trenches. Her foes are not just ALP members but also those Liberal colleagues who do not conform to her view of Liberal ideology.

Sophie went to St Catherine’s School in Toorak and then to Melbourne University, where she was president of the Liberal Club, vice-president of the Australian Liberal Students’ Federation and a passionate opponent of the student Left. Graduating with degrees in commerce and law, she came to national attention as a strong advocate for the monarchy at the 1998 Constitutional Convention on the republic issue. Since 2001 she has represented the seat of Indi, in Victoria’s rural north-east.

During her career Sophie has had little time for ideological opponents. When Liberal moderates questioned the Howard government line on asylum seekers Sophie labelled them ‘political terrorists’; last year she attacked former PM Malcolm Fraser’s criticisms of the Bush administration, saying he was guilty of either ‘intellectual sloppiness or deliberate dishonesty’ and tacitly supported Islamic fundamentalism. In February 2008 she was one of five Liberals who were not present when the motion of apology for the stolen generations was approved and later said there was no evidence that any children were truly stolen.

In 2006 she married Greg Mirabella and in 2008 the couple had a baby girl, Alexandra.

Catherine Deveny – columnist, author, television personality and stand-up comedian – was born in Melbourne in 1968. She describes her childhood and early career as follows:

‘Raised in Reservoir, home of the 12-year-old single mother with tatts and school sores. State schools the whole way. Went to La Trobe and studied cinema studies, free thanks to Gough. Started as a stand-up, [joined] Tonight Live with Steve Vizard as a writer at 23, basically a mish-mash of broadcasting, stand-up, columns, telly appearances and telly writing.’

Since 2001 (with a brief, recently-resolved gap due to a contract dispute) Catherine has become widely known for her columns in The Age newspaper, where her uncompromising left-wing opinions have made her one of the figures most reviled by the Australian Right. Her latest book, Say When, is a collection of her columns. She has appeared on just about every news-comedy show produced in Australia and is currently appearing in a stand-up role in ‘Mother of the Year’ as part of the Melbourne International Comedy Festival.

John Elliott, a dominant figure in Australian public life for more than 30 years, has brought his unique and inimitable approach to three different fields of human endeavour: business, politics and Australian Rules football. In all three he has had many successes but has also known great adversity and disappointment.

Born in Melbourne in 1941, he attended Carey Grammar and then Melbourne University where he attained an honours degree in Commerce and a Masters in Business Administration. He worked in business until 1972 when he formed a consortium to buy the IXL food group. After a 1981 merger this became the giant Elders IXL and John, as managing director, was in charge of Australia’s largest private exporter of agricultural products. Elders then concentrated on brewing, and by 1990 owned enough international brewing companies to be the fourth biggest brewer in the world.

As John’s business empire was expanding so was his influence in other fields. He became president of the Carlton Football Club in 1983 and remained for 20 years that included two premierships. And in 1987 he became Federal President of the Liberal Party. During these years he was widely regarded as a potential Prime Minister.

But problems on the business front took their toll. In 1990 John left Elders and his term as Liberal president ended. In 2002, after Carlton was found to have breached salary cap rules, he was sacked as club president; and in 2005, having earlier been found to have traded while insolvent, he declared himself bankrupt.

He is now involved in a private company concentrating on agricultural exports and evaluating new business ideas. And this month he started his own website and blog, the John Elliott Report.

Stephen Crittenden's long association with the ABC began in 1989 when he joined ABC Radio Current Affairs as a reporter on AM, PM and The World Today programs after a period as a policy officer in the NSW Cabinet Office.

In 1995 he joined the 7.30 Report as national arts reporter, before becoming one of the presenters of the weekly ABC TV arts program Express.

In 1998 Stephen returned to ABC Radio to become Executive Producer of ABC Radio Religion. He produced ABC Radio National's highly acclaimed marathon radio history of the second millennium, A Thousand Years in a Day, and in 2001 was Artistic Associate of the Melbourne International Arts Festival responsible for curating another highly acclaimed large-scale project, The Alfred Deakin Lectures, which celebrated the Centenary of Federation.

Stephen is now reports for Radio National’s current affairs documentary program Background Briefing.