LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out! - Motif

This is a discussion on LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out! - Motif ; The LessTif Core Team is pleased to announce
Release 0.93.91
of the LessTif library!
This is an intermediate release:
- Fix the nedit freeze problem (really this time).
- Several memory leak fixes.
- Some miscellaneous bug fixes.
About LessTif:
...

About LessTif:
LessTif is a "free" (LGPL'd) implementation of the OSF/Motif standard
GUI toolkit for X11. LessTif aims to be source compatible with the Motif
(a product of The OpenGroup) versions 1.2 and 2.1.

Nearly all Motif 1.2 apps compile and work out of the box with LessTif!
We still lack substantial parts of the new 2.1 functionality,
but most 2.x applications can already be built and used (many don't use
the 2.x novelties).

Some run-time problems however may still exist. The LessTif Core team is
interested in hearing about Motif applications which don't work with LessTif.
Bug reports are welcome - patches are even more welcome!

More information, source code, and binaries for several platforms
are available at:

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

The LessTif Project wrote:
> The LessTif Core Team is pleased to announce
> Release 0.93.91
> of the LessTif library!
>
> This is an intermediate release:
> - Fix the nedit freeze problem (really this time).
> - Several memory leak fixes.
> - Some miscellaneous bug fixes.
>
> About LessTif:
> LessTif is a "free" (LGPL'd) implementation of the OSF/Motif standard
> GUI toolkit for X11. LessTif aims to be source compatible with the Motif
> (a product of The OpenGroup) versions 1.2 and 2.1.
>
> Nearly all Motif 1.2 apps compile and work out of the box with LessTif!
> We still lack substantial parts of the new 2.1 functionality,
> but most 2.x applications can already be built and used (many don't use
> the 2.x novelties).
>
> Some run-time problems however may still exist. The LessTif Core team is
> interested in hearing about Motif applications which don't work with LessTif.
> Bug reports are welcome - patches are even more welcome!
>
> More information, source code, and binaries for several platforms
> are available at:
>
> http://www.lesstif.org
> http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/lesstif
>
> The LessTif Core Team
>
> P.S. This release was built using the following versions of the auto* tools:
> Running on:
> Linux 2.6.0-test4 #12 Tue Sep 2 17:46:44 CEST 2003 i686
> Using:
> autoconf (GNU Autoconf) 2.57
> automake (GNU automake) 1.6.2
> ltmain.sh (GNU libtool) 1.4.3 (1.922.2.110 2002/10/23 01:39:54)

ALso LessTif if licensed under the LGPL which is a much
better understood license. OpenMotif is licensed under
YetAnotherDamn License.

Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo nospam@mega-nerd.com (Yes it's valid)
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Everyone seems to assume that the current system in America is capitalism.
I beg to differ. True capitalism does not involve false advertising,
distribution cartels, or political lobbying for special advantages in the
market. How can you call Microsoft or the RIAA capitalist, when their main
business is interfering with a free market? Some of us would like to see a
*return* to capitalism in this country. - Jim Flynn on Linuxtoday.com

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

ray wrote in message news:<3f664840@news.zianet.com>...
> The LessTif Project wrote:
> > The LessTif Core Team is pleased to announce
> > Release 0.93.91
> > of the LessTif library!
>
> Why do they bother? Download Open Motif from OSF.

They would bother because Open Motif still has a restrictive license that
denies building it on non-free operating systems. For instance you can't
have Open Motif binaries for MacOS X, Microsoft Windows or OS/2. There are
people at Open Group aware of this problem, but making Motif really free
(under the classical MIT/X11 licence, for instance) is a hard decision. I'm
afraid it will be too late when they take it.

Perhaps it's already too late.

--- Casantos

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

ray wrote:
> Why do they bother? Download Open Motif from OSF.

Because the future is open.
Don't be fooled by names - OM isn't open.

Still waiting for an open Motif,
Jörg

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Carlos A M dos Santos wrote:
> They would bother because Open Motif still has a restrictive license that
> denies building it on non-free operating systems. For instance you can't
> have Open Motif binaries for MacOS X, Microsoft Windows or OS/2.

Actually the license denies to use it on operating systems that are
not open source. The kernel of MacOS/X counts as open source. You
can find OM 2.2 at the Fink project (porting things to MacOS/X).
> There are people at Open Group aware of this problem,

Yes?
> but making Motif really free (under the classical MIT/X11 licence,
> for instance) is a hard decision. I'm afraid it will be too late
> when they take it.

Exactly!
> Perhaps it's already too late.

This is possible, indeed.

Cheers,
Jörg

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Joerg Fischer wrote:
>
> ray wrote:
> > Why do they bother? Download Open Motif from OSF.
>
> Because the future is open.
> Don't be fooled by names - OM isn't open.
>
> Still waiting for an open Motif,

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?

Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in beta.
Something is wrong with that picture.

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Ridge wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
> news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>
> Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in beta.
> Something is wrong with that picture.

Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Danny Backx wrote:
> Ridge wrote:
>
>>Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
>>news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>>
>>>Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>>
>>Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in beta.
>>Something is wrong with that picture.
>
>
> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.
>
> That was the original waste of time.
>
> Danny

Hi, I'm no Motif/Intrinsics/X11/whatever expert or anything, but I
wonder... from an unbiased, objective point of view, what technical
advantages (or rather what advantages of whatever kind) does Motif/Xt
pose over GTK/GDK?

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

neoholistic wrote:
> Danny Backx wrote:
>
>> Ridge wrote:
>>
>>> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
>>> news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>>>
>>>> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>>>
>>>
>>> Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in
>>> beta.
>>> Something is wrong with that picture.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
>> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.
>>
>> That was the original waste of time.
>>
>> Danny
>
>
>
> Hi, I'm no Motif/Intrinsics/X11/whatever expert or anything, but I
> wonder... from an unbiased, objective point of view, what technical
> advantages (or rather what advantages of whatever kind) does Motif/Xt
> pose over GTK/GDK?
>

Its well documented ?

Tim

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

neoholistic wrote:
> Danny Backx wrote:
>
>> Ridge wrote:
>>
>>> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
>>> news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>>>
>>>> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>>>
>>>
>>> Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in
>>> beta.
>>> Something is wrong with that picture.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
>> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.
>>
>> That was the original waste of time.
>>
>> Danny
>
>
>
> Hi, I'm no Motif/Intrinsics/X11/whatever expert or anything, but I
> wonder... from an unbiased, objective point of view, what technical
> advantages (or rather what advantages of whatever kind) does Motif/Xt
> pose over GTK/GDK?
>

none. they are basically more or less equivalent. with Gtk evolving at a
faster rate than Motif. My take is that Motif will remain a player in
'maintenance mode' for a long time to come, but that any new stuff will
be found in the Qt/Gtk toolkits. Stuff like SVG support in drawing
canvasses and such like.

Other than that:

Motif probably has more formal documentation, Gtk/Gdk has many more
language bindings.

Currently they both offer more or less the same set of widgets, although
Gtk has more MS Office inspired treewidgets and eyecandy-combobox type
stuff.

Motif has the elegant widget resource concept, but using/setting them is
a bore.

There is ViewKit for Motif. The ViewKit component architecture is very cool.

and so the list goes on for pro's/con's.

Toolkit wars per se are boring, simply use what ever makes more sense
for your context.

grts,

avi

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Danny Backx wrote in message news:<3f6a10fa$0$24194$ba620e4c@reader0.news.skynet.be>...
> Ridge wrote:
> > Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
> > news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
> >> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
> >
> > Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in beta.
> > Something is wrong with that picture.
>
> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.

Why are they junk??
>
> That was the original waste of time.

Eh??
>
> Danny

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Mr. Berserker wrote:
> Danny Backx wrote in message
> news:<3f6a10fa$0$24194$ba620e4c@reader0.news.skynet.be>...
>> Ridge wrote:
>> > Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
>> > news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>> >> Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>> >
>> > Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in
>> > beta. Something is wrong with that picture.
>>
>> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
>> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.
>
> Why are they junk??
>
>>
>> That was the original waste of time.
>
> Eh??

I apologize for being overly cryptic but I wanted to bring a point
across without starting a war. I still don't want to start a war,
it's just that I'm bored with people saying only bad things about
Motif and/or LessTif, and only good things about Gtk+, Qt, ...

As someone wrote, such opinions are essentially subjective to
some extent (who can say for sure whether one set of wheels
is better than another), and also quite boring.

That said, the original writers of Gtk worked with Motif
for a while. They then decided that Motif was buggy, and wrote
their own equivalent. I doubt whether that's a good decision
in any case. That's why I say this is the original waste of
time.

When writing Gtk, they decided not to use a number of standard
components of the X Window system, such as Xt, the mechanism
for specifying resources (Xrm), etc.

In doing that, I believe they suffered from "Not Invented Here".

I believe Qt makes the same mistakes but I'm not too knowledgeable
about it.

After all that, all of the world started shouting that Gtk or Qt
applications looked better, while a good combination of resources
can provide just about the same flashy looks with Motif.

All this is not to say that Motif is the best widget set around.
Nor do I mean to say that Gtk or Qt are all bad.

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

x-no-archive: yes
Danny Backx wrote:
> That said, the original writers of Gtk worked with Motif
> for a while. They then decided that Motif was buggy, and wrote
> their own equivalent. I doubt whether that's a good decision
> in any case. That's why I say this is the original waste of
> time.
>
> When writing Gtk, they decided not to use a number of standard
> components of the X Window system, such as Xt, the mechanism
> for specifying resources (Xrm), etc.
>
> In doing that, I believe they suffered from "Not Invented Here".
>
> I believe Qt makes the same mistakes but I'm not too knowledgeable
> about it.
>

I thought that maybe the idea was to make GTK and QT window-system independent, so they chose not to use any 'X-only' component. After all, chances are that X will be replaced somewhere in the future (let's hope that they come up with something that's actually better).
> After all that, all of the world started shouting that Gtk or Qt
> applications looked better, while a good combination of resources
> can provide just about the same flashy looks with Motif.
>

Really? The default GTK 'skin' looks very much like Motif, but it seems to be 'flashier' in many ways, like for example allowing to use a pixmap as the background for many widgets; also, other skins have a more modern look like rounded buttons and such. To actually have a Motif app to have that kind of looks you would have to customise a lot of widgets, besides spendign a lot of time playing with resources. I'm not sure if that would be worth the effort.
Also, users that come from the Mac or Windows world usually find Motif looks outdated (they tend to judge a product based on how it looks, insted of on its functionality).
> All this is not to say that Motif is the best widget set around.
> Nor do I mean to say that Gtk or Qt are all bad.
>
> But the opposite certainly isn't true either.
>
> Danny

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Danny Backx wrote:
> Ridge wrote:
>
>>Erik de Castro Lopo wrote in
>>news:3F676D36.A78CBA9B@mega-nerd.com:
>>
>>>Lesstif under the LGPL is not open enough?
>>
>>Lesstif has been in development for almost 10 years and is still in beta.
>>Something is wrong with that picture.
>
>
> Yes there is. Many intelligent but misguided people started
> developing and using junk such as gtk, qt, etc.
>
> That was the original waste of time.
>
> Danny

Well, I know exactly why I stopped any effort at using and improving
Lesstif, and went completely for OpenMotif: because *total*
compatibility with OSF Motif (and that means binary, on every platform,
with a bug-for-bug mode) was never (or was it dropped at some point?) an
objective.

OSF Motif is quirky enough. Having to master the idiosyncrasies of TWO
implementations was not an attractive idea.

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

In article <3f71f379$0$837$ba620e4c@reader2.news.skynet.be>,
Danny Backx wrote:
>That said, the original writers of Gtk worked with Motif
>for a while. They then decided that Motif was buggy, and wrote
>their own equivalent. I doubt whether that's a good decision
>in any case. That's why I say this is the original waste of
>time.
>
>When writing Gtk, they decided not to use a number of standard
>components of the X Window system, such as Xt, the mechanism
>for specifying resources (Xrm), etc.
>
>In doing that, I believe they suffered from "Not Invented Here".

I once read an interview with Peter Mattis and Spencer Kimball,
original creators of GTK (I'm pretty sure it was at [1], but the link
is dead), and the goal they had set is to learn all about *everything*
it takes to write widget toolkits. One of the guys said something to
the effect of "we didn't use Xt and Xrm on purpose, and that was
possibly a mistake, but it's too late to change it now."

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Michel Bardiaux wrote:
> Well, I know exactly why I stopped any effort at using and improving
> Lesstif, and went completely for OpenMotif: because *total*
> compatibility with OSF Motif (and that means binary, on every platform,
> with a bug-for-bug mode) was never (or was it dropped at some point?) an
> objective.

I'm very happy the binary compatibility was dropped from their long-term
goals. That would be a tremendous waste of time with next to misearable
chances to achieve it.
> OSF Motif is quirky enough. Having to master the idiosyncrasies of TWO
> implementations was not an attractive idea.

Why didn't you stick to the _documented_ Motif API in the first place?
Your reasoning is the same as of those jerks writing HTML pages that
welcome me with the friendly "Can only be viewed with Internet Explorer".

Regards,

Evgeny

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Will Wagner wrote:
> In article <3f71f379$0$837$ba620e4c@reader2.news.skynet.be>,
> Danny Backx wrote:
>
>>That said, the original writers of Gtk worked with Motif
>>for a while. They then decided that Motif was buggy, and wrote
>>their own equivalent. I doubt whether that's a good decision
>>in any case. That's why I say this is the original waste of
>>time.
>>
>>When writing Gtk, they decided not to use a number of standard
>>components of the X Window system, such as Xt, the mechanism
>>for specifying resources (Xrm), etc.
>>
>>In doing that, I believe they suffered from "Not Invented Here".
>
>
> I once read an interview with Peter Mattis and Spencer Kimball,
> original creators of GTK (I'm pretty sure it was at [1], but the link
> is dead), and the goal they had set is to learn all about *everything*
> it takes to write widget toolkits. One of the guys said something to
> the effect of "we didn't use Xt and Xrm on purpose, and that was
> possibly a mistake, but it's too late to change it now."
>
> Will
>
> [1] http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld...w-01-gimp.html

GTK sucks. I like Linux, but this is the reason why Linux != Unix.
I can't set -geometry on the command line. On GTK mailing list, they
said this should be solved at the application level.
OpenOffice starts full screen and i don't know how to prevent this.
The answer could be, dont use it, but i need it.
Themes are evil the same as windoze.
Who is the owner of the my bloody screen?
I'm not single (fullscreen & task & application & M$) user !

Re: LessTif Release 0.93.91 is out!

Evgeny Stambulchik wrote:
> Michel Bardiaux wrote:
>
>> Well, I know exactly why I stopped any effort at using and improving
>> Lesstif, and went completely for OpenMotif: because *total*
>> compatibility with OSF Motif (and that means binary, on every
>> platform, with a bug-for-bug mode) was never (or was it dropped at
>> some point?) an objective.
>
>
> I'm very happy the binary compatibility was dropped from their long-term
> goals. That would be a tremendous waste of time with next to misearable
> chances to achieve it.
>
>> OSF Motif is quirky enough. Having to master the idiosyncrasies of TWO
>> implementations was not an attractive idea.
>
>
> Why didn't you stick to the _documented_ Motif API in the first place?

This shows you dont have a clue. (1) Sticking to the documented API
would not guarantee ABI compatibility (2) The ability to subclass
widgets *is* part of the Xt spec. That means *everything* in the P.h
files is part of the API too.

Even if the documented API were enough, which is often not the case;
ever tried to add a button to the OK/CANCEL of a Dialog? Button that, to
apply the principle of minimal user astonishment, *must* have the same
look as OK?
> Your reasoning is the same as of those jerks writing HTML pages that
> welcome me with the friendly "Can only be viewed with Internet Explorer".