Saint John, you may not want to admit it, but you ARE a Protestant. Your beliefs/practices are akin to typical Protestantism, with some variations here and there. You are no different than a Lutheran or the Baptist. You follow your OWN interpretation of Scriptures (which is YOUR infallible rule, not Scriptures themselves) and have your own man-made traditions, while disregarding the Apostolic Tradition passed by the Holy Apostles and preserve by their Holy Successors, and the Early God-Bearing Fathers.

The beauty of God's Plan is beyond measure within His design of the virgin birth-Word made flesh-Forgiveness of sin...etc....Mt2:23Very subtle the enemy has made mary an idol.Deut4:23-29Ex20:4-5Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness [of any thing] that[is] in heaven above,or that [is]in te earth beneath,or that[is]in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,nor serve them:for[I] the Lord tjy God [am] a jealous GOD,....

I woul like to clarify 'begotten' and 'firstborn' in my understanding at this time.Jesus is the only begotten (Son) of God but He is also the firstborn from the dead.We must know and maintain this difference to keep wolves in sheep's clothing at bay.Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 'begotten' is His relation to the Father, 'firstborn' is His relation to us.

It's one thing when a Catholic who runs off after a supposed stigmatic, or image of Jeuss on a shroud, or face of Mary on a tortilla - happens to lose his faith if any of those are proven non-genuine. It's exactly the same thing when a Protestant runs off after a popular evangelist or miracle worker - and loses his faith when that person is proven to be a fraud. In both of these cases, the people's faith is misplaced - rather than believing in God, they believe in a sign, or a shrine, or a person. This is called idolatry.

This is in contrast with people who use such objects and people and events merely as aids to increase their own face in God, but not as objects of worship in themselves (so if they fail, it's no big deal).

Moses was resurrected before Christ, the firstborn over all creation?Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:This sounds like a false idea trying to adhere to an incorrect doctrine.

Seg: "If the dead are dead!Tell me how this is possible.Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."

Duh, they obviously weren't dead! Elijah never died - he was translated in a chariot of fire. Moses was resurrected right after the contention with Satan over his body (Jud 1:9). Thus, Elijah and Moses represent the two classes of the righteous to meet Jesus in the air at His second coming (1Thes 4:13-17).

I really doubt if John knows ONE Orthodox, period, much less one whose faith was shattered by fraudulent miracles.

But I personally know several ex-penteprot pilgrims who went from one revival to the next, chasing after signs and wonders and miracle healing crusades, showing no discrimination at all, but simply believing the last thing they were told.

Because they glutted on such spiritual junk food, they don't believe ANY form of Christianity now.

No, John, my faith is not shattered when any "suppose" apparitions appear to Saints within the Eastern Orthodox community or crying icons, and in the end, it is proven false. My Faith does no stand on these. In fact, we are warn by the Church against any suppose apparitions. In manner of fact, within the Lives of Saints, there many stories about monastics and ascetics, many of whom went on to achieve genuine holiness, fell into delusion.

John, I am not like most. I have no religion. I dont go to church. I never had or let anyone teach me the bible. I try to look at the heart of men. Is it in the right place? I never heard of its man, maybe there is a reason for it. I dont know.

But, this I do know! If a man, any man can bring you to believe in God.He has done you a great service. If he brings you to believe in himself, he does you a great disservice.

I will now read up on this man. The cloves, do they cover the hand and wrist?The wrist would be important, dont you think?See Im not blind!God Bless

You have things wrong about Padre Pio. (And this is not the only time you have done so.)

He was forbidden to display his stigmata before others (except when they were examined by physicians in private). He wore gloves all the time and removed then only to celebrate Mass, which most of his life was done in private.

As stigmatics to do not appear among Orthodox (despite your claim), we are not called upon to have an opinion about them.

BTW, Padre Pio was not canonized because he was a stigmatic. Actually, nobody has been.

But I suppose that objective facts don't appeal to people who have their minds made up.

Rhonda: Right on! Don't sugar-coat it. Most Christians believe in the Greek philosophy of spooks "trapped" within our bodies that are magically "freed" at death. Never mind that this concept is never supported by scripture. ---jerry6593 on 6/12/10

And just how is it irrelevant? The Pharisees asked Jesus a question, not to elicit a response that they could learn from, but rather solely to trap him. From the tone of your question to Cluny, it sounded very similar, especially since it was about a matter (Catholic) that someone (Orthodox) did not need to have an opinion on. It makes about as much sense as asking someone from Idaho who they favor in the Alabama gubernatorial election, and then pressing them on the matter when they don't give you an answer.

But, if you were to stop, for just one second and really open your eyes. Know all the things that are your! Believe with your heart and not with your head. Put all the things in this world aside.Look at your father and know he is your father.

When he said I will never leave you. Has no meaning for you.You're looking for him to come back.

SO!Look up in the sky! It's a bird! No, it's a plane!NO! IT'S SUPERMAN!

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.Because the kingdom of heaven IS WITHIN YOU!

Rhonda: Right on! Don't sugar-coat it. Most Christians believe in the Greek philosophy of spooks "trapped" within our bodies that are magically "freed" at death. Never mind that this concept is never supported by scripture.

Why, is it the dead are dead?If you look, I think Christ clearly told you. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living!

What if I told you!Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man?

And what if I said So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Have ye understood all these things?I would guess not!

But its ok, because there is so much more!Like why would I thank you for not believing?

There is a difference between being incapable of giving an answer, and declining to give an answer.

Perhaps you would also consider Jesus's refusal to answer loaded questions from the Pharisees and from Pilate to be cop-outs as well?

Not all questions require answers, especially ones about opinions. If you are preaching or proclaiming or arguing something, others have a right to ask you to justify your position, but otherwise, you can believe whatever you want without being accountable to others.

If I present my credit card to a vendor in order to purchase something, he earns the right to know my credit card number. If anyone else asks for it, I can tell them it's none of their business.

If you are referring to apparitions such as those at Lourdes or Fatima, those are not "ghost stories".Secondly, the saints, including Mary, are not dead. If they are in Heaven beholding the Beautific vision, they are more alive than you or I are. People in Heaven are not somehow cut off from the body of Christ,unable to express their love for other members of the body of Christ.

\\The problem with "Strong Meat" is that it ends up rotten after just a short time.\\

John, are you not aware that St. Paul himself uses the phrase "strong meat"?

Hebrews 5:12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Not unless you preserve the meat with salt and eat it when it is good and delicious, but many of you here are digesting rotten meat.

The fact is that the Eastern Orthodox Church IS the True Church and has preserved the Holy Tradition (Holy Scriptures [who do you think canonized the Bible?], the Divine Liturgy, etc) passed by the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the Early God-Bearing Fathers. It was us who defended the Church from heretics such as Arians, Semi-Arians, Adoptionism, Apollinaism, Nestorianism, and others.

We DO NOT worhsip Idols/Saints/Mary or have a Pope (like the RCC), so you are liar and I rebuked you in Jesus name!

"Your Pagan rituals are more extensive and heretical.....the RCC" (John)

Far from the truth. First, if you really want to go with the "pagan" speech (I heard that lousy argument many times) then by the same token, all Christians, including you, are pagans (ie.., pagans prayed, went to temples, etc) and FYI, there are many things in the Holy Bible that have "pagan origins" (for the lack of a better phrase) or "pagan counterparts".

There is a difference between practicing paganism, and symbols/rituals that happened to be used by pagans (and the Bible is filled with them). But such topic is too strong for many here, including you, who are still choking on breast's milk.

Because many Christians don't really believe the Bible. The Bible says "the dead know not anything" (Ecc 9:5), yet most believe that the dead continue to live after death, as if life and death mean the same thing.

Mary is dead. She is not alive in heaven or anywhere else. She is therefore completely irrelevant except in an historical context.

John, you ask a question. I out of the kindness of my heart answer it.Look at all the name calling. Just want you to know.All I can say to you is God has blessed you.I can see by your words you are angry at me for what I believe.Now listen I didnt give it, you ask me!

Now Ill tell you something, before you judge me.You better know yourself better then you do.This is not from me, this come from God!I will always love you, more then you know right now!God Bless you!

Satan is a deceiver: Mary is NOT Christ the Savior. There is no record of Mary saving any one, healing any one, praying for any one, nor dying for any one. Put your faith where it belongs, in Christ Jesus alone.

"This is "strong meat" and will be pointless discussing such topics in CN".Posted by: Ignatius, Cluny,

The problem with "Strong Meat" is that it ends up rotten after just a short time.

This holds true with those of you who have a "Holy Than Thou Elitist Attitude" towards Christians.

FYI...

The Ortho is NOT the True church!. Far from it!

As you worship Idols, Mary,Saints, Popes and is drenched with Mysticism all based on Greek Mythology and Greek philsophies. Little of your church is Biblical. Nearly all is manmade Doctrines/Traditions based on Greek Paganism.

Your Pagan rituals are more extensive and heretical than anything the RCC could ever claim.

I already answered your questuion "DIRECT" from the Vatican. You can visit their site if you wish to verify.

NOW ANSWER MINE!---JOhn on 6/10/10\\

Aside from the fact that you merely want credit for answering my question directly (not direct) from the Vatican, you have offered no proof that belief in these apparitions are to be required for salvation--that is matters de fide.

I, on the other hand, have offered evidence that these are NOT matters de fide.

And there are other questions in the past you have refused to answer.

However, I will say that as an Orthodox, I'm not required to have an opinion on these apparitions.

"Your statement,"since Mariology is actually part of Christology." Is a Catholic lie which you adhere to!!" (Mima)

Mima, Cluny is not a Catholic. And let's get something straight. Christology is about WHO Jesus is. I bet you know nothing of the early Christological heresies and their history: Arians, Semi-Arians, Adoptionism, Apollinaism, Nestorianism, Eutycheanism, Monophysitism, Monothelites, etc. No....I don't think so. This is "strong" meat and will be pointless discussing such topics in CN.

And FYI, Mariology IS indeed part of Christology. Mariology is about WHO Mary, the Theotokos, is in RELATION to her Son, Jesus Christ.

For the last time, Cluny is not RCC, he is Orthodox. I believe he has told you so. He know a lot about the histories of different churches. Just because Cluny presents different teachings, it doe not necessarily means he adheres to them.

Ask me have I ever seen God?Ask me have I ever seen Christ?Ask me have I ever seen Mary?The answer is no!

Now ask me what I believe?I believe God! I believe his son was given all power on earth!Not just some, but all the power there is to be given, by the only one who can give it, God my father. God everyone father!

If my lord Jesus the Christ of God allows something to happen here.I cant care about what you think about it. I believe everything that happens here.Be it, look like good or evil to you. serve but one purpose, God!

ALL listed by the Vatican as "Holy Shrines" "Worthy of Belief". Every Pope wIthout exception has attested that these are actual visits from Mary.

This is the offical Vatican position.

Do you really think RCC members believe it is NOT part of their faith to believe that these demonic Ghosts are actually a Jewish Girl from the Middle East, that happens to looks like a Da Vinci paintings.

So Cluny, The Saq, and other RCC/Orthos DO YOU believe these ghosts to be actual visits of Mary or Demonic?

Whom else would a pious Jew (especially the wife of a priest) speaking ARAMAIC or HEBREW call "Adonai", if not YHVH, but the God of Israel?

As for continuing along this line, since Mariology is actually part of Christology, it is pointless to discuss such strong meat in the presence of people on this list (and there are quite a few) who don't even believe that Jesus is God Incarnate!

"Only I can help you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God." re: fatima stories.

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

If this demon was really Mary the Mother of Jesus she would NOT be calling her Son and Saviour Jesus Christ a liar! By saying that "Mary" is the "Only one that can help you" is actually saying quite bluntly that Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World cannot and will not help you! this is blatant anti-christ teaching.

A-men Moderator, the enemy knows that the real source of power is Christ Jesus alone, so if he can divert people to focus off onto anyone else, and especially some person in the Bible would be more acceptable, than he succeeds in misleading that soul into the sin of vain idolatry and into perdition and into condemnation.

A lot of people want to put the attention on Mary as the one to worship. So they have to create stories to make her more special than she is. They'll do anything to take the focus off of Christ. Just another ploy of the devil to confuse people who don't read the Bible to know the truth.