The potential association between a Zika virus outbreak in Brazil and a startling increase in the serious birth defect microcephaly had barely reached public consciousness and anti-vaxxers were spinning a startling new conspiracy theory: the rising incidence of microcephaly in Brazil is caused, not by Zika virus infection, but by … you guessed it … vaccines!

It’s been a tough decade for anti-vaxxers. Their insistence on a link between vaccines and autism has been thoroughly discredited; their insistence that disease like measles disappeared before the introduction of the vaccine has been thoroughly discredited; their insistence that vaccine preventable diseases like pertussis don’t kill babies has been thoroughly discredited. They desperately need a new conspiracy theory.

The anti-vax movement has a perfect record; it has never been right about anything.

Before going further, I must give credit where credit is due: The anti-vax movement has a perfect record!

That’s right. In the 200+ years since the anti-vaccination movement started, it has never been right about anything!

Apparently, anti-vaxxers are determined to continue their uninterrupted losing streak with the Zika virus conspiracy. The essence of the conspiracy is this: It might look like Zika virus infection of pregnant women causes microcephaly, a severe brain deformity, but it’s really caused by Tdap, the vaccine that prevents tetanus and pertussis. Anti-vaxxers point darkly to the fact that, following in 2015 Brazil began routinely offering pregnant women Tdap in the 3rd trimester to protect newborn babies from getting pertussis.

All the elements are present in the Zika tragedy. Although the working hypothesis is that the increase in cases of microcephaly are cause by infection with Zika virus, that has not yet been definitely established. There has been a rise in incidence of microcephaly in Brazil. It is biologically plausible. The outcome of microcephaly is usually severe intellectual and physical disability. And the birth of babies with microcephaly may have followed third trimester vaccination with Tdap.

But there’s no evidence that Tdap vaccination in pregnancy leads to microcephaly and considerable evidence that it does not.

Third trimester Tdap vaccination has been instituted around the world. Why is the increased incidence of microcephaly restricted to areas where Zika virus is endemic?

Microcephaly is a defect that originates in the early weeks of pregnancy when the brain is forming. How could an event in the third trimester have any impact on a process that was complete months before?

In contrast, there is considerable evidence that Zika virus infection of pregnant women is the likely cause:

There are a variety of viral illnesses that can cause serious brain defects in the embryo if contracted by pregnant women during the first trimester.

The incidence of Zika virus infection has been rising in Brazil. This is not the first Zika outbreak in the world, but it is the largest. Moreover, there is evidence that the Zika virus has mutated as it traveled around the globe since its discovery in Africa in 1947. The viral mutations appear to allow it to infect humans with greater ease.

Zika virus has been isolated from babies born with microcephaly and from pregnant women who gave birth to microcephalic babies.

Moreover, the conspiracy theory makes no sense in light of the actions of world health authorities:

If microcephaly were caused by Tdap, wouldn’t health authorities be trying to hide the issue not publicize it?

Why would health authorities issue travel advisories to countries where Zika is circulating if they knew that the cause was not Zika?

Why would the US spend money on the development of a vaccine for Zika virus is it’s not the cause of microcephaly?

In summary, there’s considerable evidence that Zika virus infection in the first trimester leads to microcephaly, that the incidence of microcephaly has been rising in parallel with the incidence of Zika infection, and that Zika virus is presented in affected babies and their mothers. There’s absolutely no evidence that Tdap leads to microcephaly and no logical mechanism by which a third trimester vaccination could cause a first trimester defect. Finally, a massive public relations campaign to highlight microcephaly in Brazil makes no sense if health authorities are trying to hide a causal association with Tdap.

But logic has never been the strong suit of anti-vaxxers and I don’t anticipate that there will be an outbreak of logical thinking now. Anti-vaxxers never learn; not matter how many times you destroy their arguments, they keep coming back for more.

And by the way, this is not a threat, it is not an opinion – these are facts!

Nick Sanders

What the fuck is a “DNA vaccine”?

The Computer Ate My Nym

Experimental. The idea is that you inject the DNA in a viral vector (lentiviral is especially good for introducing large amounts of DNA and scaring conspiracy theorists) so that the host’s body produces the antigen and the immune response to the antigen. It’s not currently in use in any human vaccine in the US, though there apparently is an approved DNA vaccine for Japanese encephalitis in Asia.

Nick Sanders

Interesting, thank you. Seems like a good way to accidentally add more endogenous retroviruses to the genome, though.

The Computer Ate My Nym

On an unfortunately more serious note, the yellow fever vaccine is the only one that I know of that is required for travel. If you want to know why, this is the reason:

Attention minions: It has come to my attention that you have created a nanobot that can insert DNA into every cell in the human body AND activate the DNA to create a working gene rather than a pseudogene and all you’ve used it for is to give a few random women babies with microcephaly so you could blame it on a virus. Minions, what were you thinking? How does that lead to my controlling the world? What profit will our dear friends at Monsanto make from this? The least you could have done was use the thing to mind control everyone in Brazil. I am deeply, deeply disappointed. You’re all “fired” and you know what that means. The robots will be by to collect the recyclable parts shortly.
With friendly greetings, Your Supreme Leader

The Computer Ate My Nym

Am I the only one who has some mild regrets about Dagfinn’s “T4 nanobot” being a figment of the anti-vaxxers collective imagination? Because it would be really cool if we actually could make nanobots that could inject DNA into people. Think of the possibilities for curing genetic diseases. Bad BRCA gene? No problem: Just stuff some working BRCA into the T4 nanobot and let it loose. Tired of eating fruit but scurvy so inconvenient*? Just turn on your vitamin C pseudogene with a little phage action.

Okay, so I’m off topic.

*I told my kiddo that if she can find a way to activate her vitamin C pseudogene we’ll stop bugging her about how many fruits and vegetables she eats. I’m hoping this will improve her biology knowledge. Of course, if actually manages it I’m in trouble because vitamin C sufficiency won’t help her fiber intake…

Charybdis

I think that would be wonderful and fascinating. Seriously.

But think of how much more crazy the anti-vaxxers, chem-trails-believing conspiracy theorists would become then. Although it would provide plenty of entertainment.

The Benefiber clear, no-grit mix-in stuff works well to sneak more fiber into someone’s diet. Plus, you can use it in cooking as well. Add fiber to your meatloaf! Spaghetti sauce! Yogurt! It is wonderful stuff.

Megan

During pregnancy I am a straight-up Benefiber junkie. It really is wonderful stuff. I also put a little in my daughter’s juice to help her bowels. It truly can be mixed into almost anything!

As a side note, last night I was at the grocery store with hubby and DD and as I picked up two giant containers of fiber and a pack of poise liners (I call them my piddle pads) I said to hubby that he should film this as pregnancy prevention for DD in the future. The joys of third trimester…

The Computer Ate My Nym

If she ate spaghetti sauce. Sigh. I fear she has some of my taste/textural food issues.

Not that I’m expecting her to actually activate her vitamin C pseudogene any time soon. That seems a bit much for a middle school science project. Maybe high school.

Who?

Dagfinn has shaken the devil’s hand-using ‘I’m joking’, ‘It was a joke’ and similar constructons to walk back from remarks he clearly decided were outrageous. Though by what metric the decision to walk back was made isn’t clear, since most of what he posts comprises steaming piles of nonsense.

Am wondering whether the translation tool he’s using might be responsible for some of his more eccentric language constructions. And goodness knows what it makes of what we are posting.

Anyone know what language this is? It looks Scandinavian to me. I think not Swedish because I think “hello” is “hej” or “hej hej” rather than “hei” but that’s as far as I get. Well, I don’t see any Icelandic specific diacriticals either, so less likely Icelandic. For some reason I’m thinking Danish. Anyone with actual knowledge?

Carolyn the Red

I can understand it, but I don’t think it’s danish, so it’s almost certainly Norwegian. You guys prefer each other to me so bye basically

Bombshellrisa

Hope he sticks the flounce. He still doesn’t understand we prefer the science and critical thinking to tinfoil hats.

Nick Sanders

Google translate decided it was Norwegian when I used “detect language”.

Carolyn the Red

Norwegian bokmaal and danish are very close (hence I can read Norwegian from speaking Danish). If it’s spoken and I just about understandit all, it’s probably Norwegian (or a different Danish accent). If I think, I should understand but don’t, it’s probably Swedish.

Nick Sanders

The only Swedish I know is “bork bork bork”.

Who?

It’s norwegian. I guessed, then plugged it in, and got a typical ‘goodbye, you’re all in love with each other and my brilliance is unappreciated here so I’m taking my hat and pants and going home.’

Charybdis

Apparently Disqus can only handle a certain number of responses before it overloads/crashes/breaks/whatever causes the page to stop loading and new comments can be posted. It has happened before, most recently with an erectile dysfunction parody of lactavists and their party line. It got taken over/hijacked by an intactavist whackaloon who had some SERIOUS issues with his parents and sexuality.

There was not then, nor is there now, any nefarious, “Big Brother” type of censorship going on. Not that we expect you to believe that…

Azuran

Shhhhhh, he’s going to hear you and come back.

Charybdis

Which one? Larry the pissed off intactavist whackaloon or Dagfinn the Nordic whackaloon?

demodocus

Part of me wants to quote from my German Harry Potter at him for that non-English post. But that’d mean posting to him.

The Computer Ate My Nym

I wonder if he’s using a translation program rather than writing in English directly and forgot to run it through the translator that time. Though, to give Dag his proper due, his English is much better than I’d expect if that were true.

Harry Potter’s hard because of all the invented words. At least to me. Try early Asterix cartoons. They’re easy and amusing. Just stop after Gossinscy dies because they go WAY downhill after that. Also if the translator is any good, Agatha Christie is remarkably easy to read auf Deutsch.

demodocus

My german English teacher would give my best friend and i one or two of those to read in class. (We were the only 2 who’d had any German and that class had way too many students who shouldn’t have been in advanced placement.)

Who?

I wondered this too, though what came out of Google translate was more lucid and well-parsed than his usual efforts.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Being a US-American, I may be more impressed than I should by people being able to speak other languages than their first, but I thought his English was pretty decent. His logic, not so much.

Dagfinn Klausen

This debate has been shut down, one time before, a few days ago.
I assume that was because somebody realized that the Zika Virus was turning into a dud.

Now somebody is moving the T4 nanobot, down into the shady past of the debate.
I must say, I find that quite interesting.

Bombshellrisa

Nothing has been shut down. Everyone is taking a break from your rants.

Dagfinn Klausen

No, they closed down some days ago, and at the same time scratched 1900+ replies to the debate.

Dagfinn Klausen

By the way, who is “They”? If You have any knowledge, don´t feel shy. ;-))

Bombshellrisa

Disqus crashes when there are hundreds of comments on a topic. Want to help that not happen? Actually comment in a way that contributes to the subject. You are attempting to hold court with scientists, nurses, doctors, midwives and professors–and failing miserably.

Who?

Only you know who ‘They’ are, since ‘They’ exist only in your fevered imagination/alternative reality/altered mental state.

“Moving down”, “shady past”? Do you even understand how a comment section works? There are two sort methods: most upvotes first and most recent first. I should hope they are self-explanitory, and that a moment’s reflection will allow to realize why the reasons your inane nonsense are not staying at the top in either style are very simple, and not in the least nefarious.

Azuran

You people see conspiracy theories everywhere. Must be hard being so paranoid. The website just start having trouble after a certain point.

Dagfinn Klausen

No feedback on the T4 nanobot yet, but a lot of flack, that has mostly been properly addressed.

Is it because You consider it being real, or are You, “Skeptics”, waiting for somebody, from behind the scenes, with relevant knowledge, to instruct You what to say?

This could only be diagnosed by autopsy.
Somebody is obviously lying here, and CBS seems too incompetent to cover up for it.

Was this a test of the T4 nanobot, through the HPV Vaccine, using these girls as guineapigs?

Dagfinn Klausen

We have a new contender, arriving late last night by snail-mail from a whistleblower that claims to have access to inside information from “TheVaccineIndustrialComplex”.

May I present to You:

Candidate 6, A brain eating T4 nanobot Bacteriophage, that was added to the Tdap Vaccine, sponsored by WHO

Who?

So a moment ago this person was, by definition, a dishonest and corrupt servant of what you believe to be an evil industrial regime.

Now they are a peerless speaker of truth, whose every word you hang on.

Next.

Dagfinn Klausen

Good point, but as the introduction was meant as a joke, it is not relevant to the debate.

The info about the nanobot, though, is. ,-)

Charybdis

Is what? A joke?

Who?

Meant to be a joke. Even he could see he failed.

Given the steaming piles of utter nonsense he’s been leaving behind here, it’s hard to tell when he’s attempting to be serious.

Charybdis

Is he even trying to be serious with any of his *points*?

Dagfinn Klausen

Without trying? How will You ever figure it out?

Charybdis

Without trying what? And what am I supposed to be figuring out?

Azuran

Logically, it would first be offered to women of childbearing age in endemic area. Since the whole point is to prevent microcephaly. Until the production of vaccine is high enough, they are not going to push them on people who don’t need them or just offer them to ever random person asking for it.

Dagfinn Klausen

Like the passengers on British Airlines planes, that have been sprayed with toxic pesticides, to avoid the Virus to spread?

A mandatory vaccine to travel is next. Mind my word.

Remember WHO has just declared the Zika Virus a World Wide crisis – one of the reasons being, very few get sick…

Charybdis

Vaccines are already mandatory for travel. Some travel, that is.

It is considered a world-wide crisis because it is moving into areas where it has not been found previously and because it is strongly indicated in microcephaly when women are infected in early pregnancy, maybe even before they know they are pregnant.

Dagfinn Klausen

Have You decided yet, to accept the Zika Virus Vaccine? Or will You, in the future, rather be staying at home?

Charybdis

Considering that there is no such thing as a Zika vaccine yet, this is a hypothetical question. Or a moot point.

But seeing as how I’m done having kids, I think it falls into the moot point category.

Dagfinn Klausen

Considering there is not yet an established connection between Zika Virus and microcephaly, beyond the WHO scaremongering, supported buy MSM, this is a decision, that seems to fully support the moot point category, whatever that may mean.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Not entirely. There’s still the small but real risk to you of getting GBS related to zika. And it’s a flavivirus, relative of several encephalitities. I’d suggest the vaccine, even if no further childbearing is expected, to avoid the neurologic risk to yourself.

Charybdis

True. But as mosquitoes really don’t like the way I taste and mosquitoes aren’t a huge problem where I live, I would probably wait until a vaccine was widely available and after those most at risk had one.

Azuran

You make it sound like it’s a super hard decision when really it isn’t.
As things stand now, I probably won’t be getting a vaccine against zika any time soon. Because I live in a place where the virus is unlikely to ever survive, because we don’t have the right kind of mosquito and it’s too cold. So Zika virus vaccination will probably not be necessary for me.
But if there eventually is a vaccine, I would totally get it (and have my family get it) before travelling to any place were the disease is present.
But then again, that all depends on what would be the recommendation for the vaccine. It might only be necessary for pregnant or potentially pregnant women. So it might not be necessary for me at whatever time in my life I might be going to south America.
For now, the only thing that is certain is that as a woman soon trying to get pregnant, I’m not going anywhere near south America in the near future.

Dagfinn Klausen

That´s a pity. Myself, I will be leaving for Saint Martin in two weeks…

Being old and happily married, not insulting anybody in the debate, this was of course, just a joke.

Joking aside. Vaccines are a double edged sword, so stay alert, very alert…

Azuran

Yea, sure, except that one of those edge is completely flat. Sorry but as a medical professional myself, I have complete trust in vaccine safety and efficacy. I use them every single day in my practice and see the damages done by vaccine preventable disease all the time.
Doesn’t mean I’m not alert about the potential risk of vaccine, just that I’m also knowledgeable about medical research around them and their overwhelming benefits.

Nick Sanders

Yes, on one edge, they prevent diseases like nothing else. On the other edge, there is the very real risk of tripping and stabbing yourself in the face with a needle.

Charybdis

Microcephaly is a known birth defect. It occurs in something like 0.5 cases for every 10,000 births. So it is a rare birth defect, but not completely unheard of.

A microcephalic baby born in Hawaii was the first one reported in the US that was attributed to the Zika virus. So it hasn’t been an issue here until recently. The mother had lived in Brazil prior to moving to Hawaii.

A case of Zika in Texas was spread via sexual contact. The spreader had recently been to Brazil.

Florida has had 20 cases of Zika confirmed. These cases have been travel related, not locally acquired. But you get more infected people returning to their homes, then the virus can spread locally by sexual contact and/or local mosquitoes (they bite the infected person, get the virus and then spread it to other people they bite). Yes, it could become a real problem in parts of the US, but any vaccine developed should rightfully be given to those most in danger from infection, not anyone who insists on it.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Have You decided yet, to accept the Zika Virus Vaccine when it is introduced?

No, I have not decided. I don’t have any information to go on yet. If it is a vaccine that is ineffective, like, for example, the BCG, I probably won’t take it. If it is effective, like, say, the MMR, I will definitely take it even though I am unlikely to have any further children because 1. I don’t want to pass it to anyone else and 2. I don’t want GBS, which it has been linked to. If I were traveling to Brazil (which is unlikely in the immediate future) I’d also get a typhoid and yellow fever vaccine and probably the dengue vaccine, if I could convince anyone to give it to me. Mosquitoes love me. It isn’t mutual.

Megan

“brain eating T4 nanobot Bacteriophage”

Yeah, that doesn’t sound crazy at all…. /sarcasm

Dagfinn Klausen

Reality seems more scary than fiction these days.
This is how it looks:

To provide a background on this, I have a really close friend who is a doctorate of pharmacology and an expert in the related microbiology fieldsn(and have now discussed this with other doctors who know about this.) While having lengthy discussions about the future of weaponized medicine, this friend went on and on about how bacteriophages were being re engineered to attack our brain cells rather than their normal host – bacteria, implant DNA directly into our cells to change us immediately and forever change future generations by delivering a DNA payload to the egg cells in the ovaries and also to the male reproductive system. This would have a permanent impact on the future of mankind. Once this type of phage was received via a vaccination, those vaccinated would have the vaccine induced traits passed along via DNA insertion by the phage to all future generations.

Megan,
Seems like notorious Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, for one´s, brings something useful to the table. This is from 2010, probably before he was taken control of by his wife.
It seems spot on…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm3PYZ0N7Dg

Nick Sanders

If Alex Jones said the sky was blue, I would immediately go check, just to make sure. That’s how untrustworthy he is.

Dagfinn Klausen

I completely agree, and if he said it was filled with Chemtrails, I would not even care to check.

Nick Sanders

Ignoring the blatant impossibility of that idea, the babies have brains, what they don’t have are skulls big enough to hold them.

Dagfinn Klausen

OK Sceptics of The Forum. Time for the vote:

Candidate 1. The Zika Virus, that never caused anybody any problems, and which WHO claims, the biggest challenge is, that very few get sick. Candidate is sponsored by Rockefeller Foundation, who funded the expedition that were able to capture and isolate the virus in 1947.
Candidate 2. The Tdap Vaccine, that has been around for a while, but not in Brazil until 2014. Candidate is sponsored by GlaxoSmithKline and Sanofi-Pasteur, that have been supplying the vaccine to Brazil.
Candidate 3. Pyriproxyfen, that has been added to the drinking water in Brazil in the affected arias since 2014. Candidate is sponsored by Sumitomo Chemical, a strategic partner of Monsanto, where Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is an investor.
Candidate 4. GMO Crops, sprayed by toxic pesticide Glyphosate. Candidate is Monsanto, where Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is an investor.
Candidate 5. GMO Mosquitos. Candidate Oxitec, a company, where Bill and Melinda Gates are sponsors.

The vote is scheduled for tomorrow, and it will be up to the Forum, to agree why, when and how (wish You luck with that).

1) Zika virus
It belongs to a group of viruses that can cause encephalitis in adults who
become infected with it. It has been observed that newborn animals whose parent was infected with Zika virus during pregnancy can be born with microcephaly. Women who had Zika during their pregnancy have viral material found in the amniotic sac, which suggests that an embryo or fetus can contract the virus while still in the womb. The Zika virus genome as well as viral RNA can be found in the brain cells of microcephalic fetuses. I don’t expect you to be able to follow this highly logical path to a reasonable conclusion that points toward the Zika virus since conspiracies about pesticides and a general ignorance about fetal development, immunology and vaccines run rampant in your thought process.

Dagfinn Klausen

So why now, and never before?
And how many are diagnosed positive to Zika, when there is no test and no routines for testing?
And how many children are brain damaged? Nobody knows.
And how many, who are diagnosed with Zika, have children not brain damaged?

Are You starting to getting it?
Come on – admit it, this Zika debacle starts looking more and more like previous hoax´s.

Bombshellrisa

If I were to go along with your strange reasoning, then it couldn’t be vaccines, pesticides or GMOs either.
The virus causes the same symptom in other species, is found in the organ that is affected, and is specific to an area with an outbreak. The only person who isn’t “getting it” is you.

Charybdis

Maybe because the areas of the world where Zika has been found before don’t have the resources to get prenatal care, postnatal care, hell, any kind of health care and incidences of microcephaly were not recorded in any sort of database.

The family of viruses that Zika belongs to can, and have caused incidences of microcephaly. It is not illogical to presume that Zika can affect the developing embryo in the first trimester when the CNS is being formed.

Just because you are exposed, does not automatically mean you will be infected. Just because you are infected does not automatically mean your baby will be microcephalic. It appears to depend on the timing of the mother’s infection with Zika.

The GMO mosquitoes being released are males, WHO DO NOT BITE. The females, WHO DO BITE, mate once and lay eggs. The resulting offspring of a GMO male and a female Aedes aegypti are non-viable, meaning they do not live past the larval stage and cannot grow up to become humming little disease vectors themselves.

Zika has been around in other places, but it is NEW TO THE AMERICAS. In places where it has been found, the results of the infection seem to be on the mild side: flulike symptoms, maybe a rash. That’s all. Not something to get your knickers in a twist about, unless you are in the early stages of pregnancy.

How exactly is this some sort of hoax? Or diabolical cover-up of some sort?

Dagfinn Klausen

So, You put Your vote on the Zika Virus?
If You win, will You mention United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) and the 11th session of the Meeting of the Parties to the 1997 Kyoto Protocol in Your thank You speech, and make a statement that Planned Parenthood should be established in Brazil, to make abortions more available?

Charybdis

Absol-freaking-lutely. If a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy, it is not a decision made lightly or flippantly. And if a woman and her family do not wish to take the chance that they will have a microcephalic baby because she was infected right after a positive pregnancy test/or right after she realizes she is pregnant and they don’t have the resources to care for a microcephalic baby forever, she should not be forced into carrying to term because someone wants to legislate morality.

And I did not vote, because the Zika virus is the most likely culprit. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

MaineJen

Viruses mutate. This one seems to have changed just enough (since it was first discovered many years ago) to target human neurologic tissue specifically.

Dagfinn Klausen

Viruses mutate, thats right, and vaccines get tainted. The problem with Zika is, we have no way of knowing yet. So until they initiate a double blind test of the Tdap Vaccine, and start to test pregnant women for Zika, when the new test is ready this fall, I suggest we go on with our lives as usual, and reject any Vaccine to protect us against Zika, until the correlation between Zika and microcephaly has been firmly established.

Nick Sanders

or weaponized

Nope.

The Bofa on the Sofa

So why now, and never before?

How do you know it’s never happened before? For example, Zika goes back at least 70 years ago in Africa. Do you think that a 2/1000 incidence of microcephaly was on the radar in Africa in 1945, when the maternal mortality rate alone was 1/100?

One reason why this is a problem now is because we have done such a good job at minimizing the other issues in childbirth to make it a problem.

Dagfinn Klausen

I do not know it´s never happened before, nobody does. And nobody knows if it is happening now.

So, until the correlation between Zika and microcephaly is firmly established, we should all reject any vaccine to developed prevent it.

And, until there is a double blind test proving that the new Tdap vaccine is safe, executed by an organization that we can trust, I suggest we stay away from this vaccine too.

The Bofa on the Sofa

I do not know it´s never happened before,

So why did you claim it hasn’t?

You complain that no one wants to debate, but this is why: you can’t have a rational debate with someone who just makes shit up. It’s the standard MO for cranks, like you, Alex Jones and John Rappoport. And when you get called on having made shit up, you move on to some non-sequitor.

And, until there is a double blind test proving that the new Tdap vaccine is safe

1) TDaP is used all over the world, and does not cause microcephaly.

2) TDaP, which is given in the third trimester, cannot cause microcephaly, which is detectable already in the 2nd trimester.

So we can completely rule out TDaP as the cause of the microcephaly. Unless, of course, this is just all about anti-vaccination and you are only using the issue of microcephaly as a means for your nonsensical rant.

Dagfinn Klausen

“I do not know it´s never happened before, nobody does. And nobody knows if it is happening now.
So, until the correlation between Zika and microcephaly is firmly established, we should all reject any vaccine developed to prevent it.
And, until there is a double blind test proving that the new Tdap vaccine is safe, executed by an organization that we can trust, I suggest we stay away from this vaccine too”.

Is this what You are calling a Rant?
May I suggest You go to Your own rant, and try to get some logic into it – unless it´s purpose is trying to intimidate me?

Until there is a proven correlation between Zika Virus and microcephaly, and a double blind test to prove the Tdap vaccine is safe, I do not think, I will change my mind on a potential Zika vaccine, whatever intimidation You may be trying.

About John Rappoport and Alex Jones, I have an open mind. Seems You don´t, which will make it very hard for me to accept any critic of their claims, that may be based on facts, logic and articulation from You. May they have an agenda? Absolute, and so may You, and others on this Forum.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Is this what You are calling a Rant?

It is your entire presence here. You have actually said nothing of substance at all.

try to get some logic into it

You apparently didn’t read my refutation of TDaP as a cause for the increase in microcephaly in Brazil. Logic: a vaccine given in the third trimester cannot cause an effect that occurs in the second.

About John Rappoport and Alex Jones, I have an open mind.

My mind is open to new information. Alex Jones is NON-information. Nothing he says has any credibility of any sort, and can only be accepted without external validation. If there is a source that cannot be believed without having external validation, it is actually not a source at all.

Dagfinn Klausen

According to WHO, Tdap is recommended given in 2nd and 3rd trimester.
Page 64 in this document:

Vaccination of pregnant women and household contacts

Vaccination of pregnant women is likely to be the most cost-effective complementary strategy and appears to be more effective and favorable than cocooning and neonatal immunization. The working group recommends considering the immunization of pregnant women with TdaP (1 dose in the 2nd or 3rd trimester at least1 week prior to delivery

1) What were the recommendations given to the Brazilan doctors?
2) TDaP is given all over the world. Why did microcephaly only happen in select locations?

Dagfinn Klausen

1) Do we know? Did they follow WHO´s recommendations, or did they divert – if so, why?
2) TDaP has been given all over the world. According to the inlet of the Vaccine, It has the potential side effect of brain damage, but at a very low number. If the vaccine is the cause of microcephaly, it may be because it is different, tainted or weaponized. This is nothing new. We had it several times before, like with tetanus and abortion, in Mexico and Indonesia in the seventies, and in Kenya last Year. Therefore, in my opinion, Tdap should be further investigated.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Weaponized TDaP?

Clearly you aren’t serious.

Dagfinn Klausen

You haven´t heard about weaponized vaccines? Do some research. You may be surprised.
Have You heard about lobotomies? In Norway, in the period from 1941-74, we had more than 3000 cases. Rockefeller Foundation arrived in 1929, and funded what is today the Norwegian State´s Health Institute.

Charybdis

Have you had one? A lobotomy, I mean?

And how the bloody hell do lobotomies enter into the equation?

Dagfinn Klausen

The reason is simple. The “Bofa on the Sofa”, seems never to being familiar with weaponized vaccines. So I assume, he does not know about Rockefeller Foundation, lobotomy or eugenics ether…

The Bofa on the Sofa

The “Bofa on the Sofa”, seems never to being familiar with weaponized vaccines

It’s a buzzword that doesn’t have a lot of meaning, but that is irrelevant. Your claim wasn’t about “weaponized vaccines” it was about TDaP causing microcephaly, which, you postulated could be due to a “weaponized” version.

And so spare (note the correct spelling) us the moronic sidetrain into nonsense, and address the point: weaponized TDaP? You clearly are not serious.

The TDaP given is the standard version that is given all over and does NOT utilize nanotechnology nor is “weaponized”.

Charybdis

Don’t forget about the electroshock therapy, straitjackets and being wrapped in cold, wet sheets.

Can you give an example of an actual weaponized vaccine? One in truth, not a bunch of half-baked, wild theories or ranting from the tinfoil hat brigade.

Nick Sanders

Closest I can think of is when the CIA used a fake vaccination program as a cover for gathering intel on Bin Laden. Which royally pissed off actual vaccinators and doctors. If the global health community were actually using vaccines to eliminate “undesirables”, I can’t imagine them having a problem with using vaccines to close in on a mass murdering terrorist.

Charybdis

Yeah, but in that case they were using vaccines as a cover story, they weren’t actually injecting anyone with radioactive nanobot GPS transmitters or any sort of Trojan Horse type thing.

The Computer Ate My Nym

I’m unfamiliar with “weaponized vaccines” myself. Perhaps you could give an example?

And Norwegian lobotomies have about as much to do with microcephaly in Brazil as does weaponized TDaP.

Because “weaponized TDaP” is not being used.

Dagfinn Klausen

Do I listen to Alex Jones? Very seldom, because I don´t trust him. Do I listen to him sometimes, especially if somebody I trust recommend me to.
Do I trust WHO? Absolutely not. Why? Because I have found them to lie, and spreading fearful propaganda without cause.
Do I read info from them? Absolutely, because it may give a clue to, what is really going on.

Nick Sanders

Jeez louise, the irony…

Who?

Is this the bullying accusation?

I knew it was coming…

Dagfinn Klausen

Sooner or later, I knew, You would claim to be psychic – don´t ask me how, but I just knew it…

Charybdis

So are you volunteering you, your family and other concerned friends for a double blind vaccine study? We’ll inject you with either the TDaP or isotonic saline, then infect you with diptheria, tetanus and pertussis and then wait and observe who develops symptoms and/or dies from the disease and who doesn’t.

As for a Zika vaccine, I’m not sure if they are working on one, as there are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Dagfinn Klausen

You triggered my curiousity with that one, I must admit.

Charybdis

And the best part is that we won’t know which one gets injected into whom, and neither will you until the end. Sounds like a bang-up good time, doesn’t it?

Bombshellrisa

Zika already has been proven to cause microcephaly in animals, so there is correlation.

Dagfinn Klausen

So has Monsantos Roundup. No correlation there.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Not microcephaly, though, right? So that there goes that.

Of course

Monsantos Roundup has been proven to make mouse seriously ill.

Everything can make a mouse “seriously ill” in the right amount. Hell, everything can KILL in the right amount. We even have ways of quantifying it – we call it the LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of those taking it).

The great alchemist Paracelsus is the one who noted, “The dose makes the poison.” It’s the basis for modern toxicology. The question is not “is it poisonous?” but “how much does it take?”

Dagfinn Klausen

I give You that one, but – I hope You got my point.

The Bofa on the Sofa

No, I don’t get your point. None of this has anything to do with microcephaly in babies in South America, so why are you bringing it up?

Charybdis

Seriously ill is not the same thing as a birth defect like microcephaly.

One could claim that peanut butter or cheese is lethal to mice because people use those things to bait mouse traps. Mouse eats peanut butter/cheese, trap snaps, BINGO! Dead mouse! So peanut butter and cheese clearly are lethal to mice.

You appear to logic in non sequiturs.

Dagfinn Klausen

If eating is leading You to dying, what exactly is Your point?

So if Mice decide to eat Monsanto GMO crops, get sick and die? Should we stop making Mouse traps? Or stop eating Mice? Or stop spreading and forcing the Population to eating GMO?

Your logic seems to be vaining. Did some Anti -vaxxers make You loose Your mind?

Help is on its way. The new Zika vaccine, that is under development, is designed to cure everybody, and everybody’s offspring of all sickness and confusion, including Authism.

Charybdis

Dude, do you even HEAR yourself? My thought process (which was an exercise in sarcasm and how people can draw incorrect conclusions) made as much sense as the batshit crazy stuff you have been posting.

And I guess we are just in for it then, huh? If eating leads to dying and not eating leads to dying, then what are we going to do? And, nope to the anti-vaxxers. I’m fully vaccinated, recently updated my TDaP.

And what is Authism? If you mean AUTISM, there is no correlation between vaccines and autism; THAT nonsense was disproved years ago. And if you want anecdata, my brother, who is on the autism spectrum (means he has an Asperger’s) and I have had the exact same vaccinations as babies/young children. I don’t have autism. Although that example might lead you to the conclusion that 50% of people receiving vaccinations will *get* autism, or that only boys given vaccines will *get* autism.

How many conspiracy theories do you ascribe to? Just so we can keep track.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You.
Sorry I misspelled it. But how, in the World, did You think, a new Vaccine for preventing Zika, would cure autism, that has been around for some years now, and never has been connected to any vaccines?
Just asking..

Charybdis

I don’t think that at all. You implied it in your previous post up there ^^^

And if you were joking/being facetious, it is not clear, mainly because you keep posting off-the-wall logic fails.

Bombshellrisa

Zika causes microcephaly in animals whose mothers were infected during pregnancy. I have no doubt there are things that make animals sick, but it’s a strong correlation when a disease known to cause microcephaly in another species is endemic in an area that then reports many cases of microcephaly in it’s population. It’s also a strong correlation that the Zika virus genome and viral RNA can be found in the brain of microcephalic babies whose mothers were infected during pregnancy.

Nick Sanders

Are you talking about that Séralini nonsense?

Azuran

What is it with you people and double blind studies. Stop holding on to this like a life boat. You cannot do double blind studies with everything. It is not ethical to give placebo vaccine and lie to parents about the vaccination status of their children. It could kill them. Double blind studies are not the only way out there to prove that something is safe and effective. It’s the best way, but it’s far from being the only one. There have been thousands of other kind of studies that showed vaccine are safe and effective. Just because they aren’t double blinded doesn’t make them worthless.

Following your own logic with double blind studies, in order to establish the relation between Zika and microcephaly, we should do a double blinded study, since that’s the only acceptable way for you people to know for sure. That means we have to inject pregnant women with Zika or a placebo without their knowing which one they got and then monitor the microcephaly rates. You can’t do that, that would be inhumane,

Making a totally vaccine takes a ridiculous amount of time. Although the link is not definitely proven, there is enough evidence to justify starting vaccine research while they keep searching. If it’s not zika, worst case scenario: we have a useless vaccine, big deal. If we don’t start research now and it turns out that it is zika, we might be 2-3 years later in developing the vaccine.

Dagfinn Klausen

Do You have some good examples of some of these thousand studies?
And waiting for those, do You suggest, we continue injecting innocent (and often illiterate) women with vaccines, that WHO, CDC admit have not been thoroughly tested as safe, and give the producers of such vaccines an “out of jail card”, if something goes wrong?

You know who else has ‘immunity?’ Every single medical practitioner out there, including me.
This immunity you complain so much about is not immunity to do whatever you want. It’s immunity to known and accepted reactions to any medication or medical procedure. Because nothing is ever 100% safe. We know that, and no matter how safe something is, and even when everything goes right, eventually someone is going to have an unforeseeable adverse reaction and might have permanent sequels or die.
Doctors, pharmacist, pharmaceutical companies and everyone else involved in healthcare will have some kind of immunity if they follow standard of practice and something unexpected still goes wrong or there are complications that are known to be possible. There will usually still be a monetary compensation, as is the case with vaccine injury. But you cannot ‘sue’ because it’s not their fault, there is no one to blame, everything did their job properly and the adverse reaction was not something you could predict or prevent.

Nick Sanders

So, until the correlation between Zika and microcephaly is firmly established, we should all reject any vaccine developed to prevent it.

Why on earth should we do that?

And, until there is a double blind test proving that the new Tdap vaccine is safe, executed by an organization that we can trust, I suggest we stay away from this vaccine too.

Given that tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis are each individually demonstrably far, far more dangerous than the entire vaccine schedule combined, you can cram that suggestion where the sun doesn’t shine.

So how many mothers, in a country of millions, where between 60 – 90 % of the population is assumed to having been exposed to Zika, gave birth to normal children? From this popula, how many have been diagnosed with Zika – that normally have no symptoms, and for which there is no sure way of testing, and routines for testing have not been established?

What is the “proof” that strengthen the link, You are talking about?

Dagfinn Klausen

And what percentage of the women that are suspect of being potential Zika-infected have been:
– Drinking the water loaded with Chemicals, meant to kill off the larvaes of mosquitos?
– Having been eating the GMO food of Monsanto, having been sprayed with highly toxic pesticides like Glyphosate?
– Received the Tdap Vaccine, or if they ran out of it, the DTap or DTP vaccine?
Is the correct answer 100%?

Just curious for Your reply!

crazy grad mama

See above. I’ll wait.

Dagfinn Klausen

I will be happy to reply, but am a bit confused.
See above – Are You referring me to God?

Bombshellrisa

It’s not the reply we are waiting for, it’s for you to read the link. Hint: you might find another strong correlation if you do.

crazy grad mama

You’d like that, wouldn’t you?

No, “see above” means see my comment above. On this thread. Because I’m not typing it twice.

Dagfinn Klausen

Then I have to. What Forbes has claimed, does not stand up to established scientific standards, which I suppose You are well aware of.

Bear with me, but what Forbes claims, I will have to regard as cheap Propaganda (and, if You are serious – so should You).

crazy grad mama

So you’re admitting you didn’t read it.

Dagfinn Klausen

So, if I didn´t read it, why deny it? On this Forum, it seems that very few, read anything.

But, being serious, of course I read it.

On the other side, there is always a possibility of being wrong. If so, I am more than willing to admit and regret.

If I missed something, please tell me what, and I will respond.

crazy grad mama

Oh, you missed a lot, dear. Such as the English convention for capitalization. But do explain your “established scientific standards,” if you please.

Dagfinn Klausen

“If I missed something, please tell me what, and I will respond”.
When I went to school, (many many moons ago), it was capitalized, but what has this to do with Zika?
Time to get serious – or time to get lost? Well I guess, that´s up to You.

crazy grad mama

So you’re 200 years old? Actually, that explains a lot. You didn’t answer my question though.

Charybdis

Which “established scientific standards” are you referring to exactly?

The stuff you are posting, my good person, is something we will have to regard as cheap Propaganda (and if You are serious-so should You).

Roadstergal

Omg! The water has chemicals! Including water!

MaineJen

We have Monsanto, everyone. Repeat, we have mention of Monsanto. All I need now is The Microbiome, and my bingo card will be full.

crazy grad mama

I’m sorry, I only respond to logic, and to people who’ve actually read the link.

momofone

A little OT, but a proud parent moment: This morning, my son was watching the news while I got dressed, and there was a report about the Zika virus. I told him that there are people who believe the vaccine conspiracy theory (I explained it a little to him). As we got in the car to head to school, he said, “Mom, don’t you wish there were a vaccine to make people smarter so they won’t believe every dumb thing they hear?” 🙂

Dagfinn Klausen

What will be You answer, if he turns around from his computer and claims: “Dad, why did You never tell me that the whole idea with vaccines, is to dumb people down?”

You should consider homeschooling, and controlling his Internet access if You want to not loosing control ;-))

momofone

I have no need for “control.” Given that he’s just eight now, I’m quite satisfied that he’s developing the ability to think and assess.

I would be curious if he called me Dad, though, since I’m his mom.

Dagfinn Klausen

Touche!

crazy grad mama

So, you believe in suppressing your children’s access to the outside world and preventing them from learning to think critically, so you can maintain “control”? Ew.

Why, why would you even entertain this thought process? Vaccines don’t “dumb people down”.

As for “loosing control”(sic), have you ever MET a child? If you think you can have total control (physical, mental and emotional) of a child, you are sadly mistaken.

Bombshellrisa

Your child is awesome!

Dagfinn Klausen

Absolutely. And he also seems to be “Psychic”, as his mother never even tried thinking about influencing his thoughts in any way ;-))

Bombshellrisa

Not sure about psychic but he has strong reasoning skills. He was able to grasp the fact that there are certain things that are preventable by giving a vaccine. He is also able to understand that people believe a lot of things, based on something they hear and then run with the idea and create a whole world around it and that doing so isn’t a sound way to construct a theory or argument. His equally awesome mother may have influenced him in being able to reason things out, but it’s his own critical thinking skills that are the stand out here.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You.
Seems he has got a good start in life. Wishing him all the best.

momofone

His thoughts are his own, but we both absolutely want to influence his thinking. We hope he’ll embrace (actual) science, and reason, and critical thinking, rather than falling for every lame “theory” someone on the internet proposes.

Who?

Thanks for saying this. The incredible disrespectfulness of attempting to influence a child’s thoughts may well be a reflection of Dagfinn’s general attitude to the world.

A little sidestep – if I may. I have two grown up kids. Declined the MMR Vaccine. Tough decision, I must admit. Luckily, neither of them got any of the severe side-effect of measles.

What I remember though, was strange. Both my wife and I agreed, the children went through a visible change, in the way they looked, and behaved, after recovering from the sickness.

Who?

I’m sure you both recall that as a positive change.

How many babies and immune compromised people did they infect, do you think?

And how about the mumps? Or will that happen now they are adults, so not your problem?

Dagfinn Klausen

In the society I used to live in, everybody got these diseases, got sick, and life went on. No big deal!

Me, not having been vaccinated, I have absolutely no clue, which of these sicknesses, I encountered as child.

About my grown-ups, I do not think they are more concerned than I am.

Bombshellrisa

No big deal, although pregnant women exposed to rubella can have babies with birth defects. The babies can also be blind, deaf or both. Of course, you aren’t concerned about that because your kids didn’t have those things happen to them. But they were risks to other people being unvaccinated.

demodocus

Tell my MIL that rubella is no big deal. Not sure what she’d do, but you’d certainly figure out her point of view *really* quickly. It wasn’t too bad for her until her baby was born several months later. She loves this one picture of him at 9 months old because “its one of the few where his eyes aren’t red from all those surgeries”

Bombshellrisa

But Daggfin says that it’s no big deal! It was probably pesticides, GMOs or vaccines!

Who?

Why would Dagfinn care about the children in his community now that he has a whole continent to share his special message with?

The Bofa on the Sofa

In the society I used to live in, everybody got these diseases, got sick, and life went on. No big deal!

No big deal? Since when?

I had the chicken pox when I was young. From my perspective: it sucked. I won’t presume to talk for my folks or family.

However, I can tell you what I think about chicken pox as a parent:

HEALTH:
Chicken pox typically presents with 10 – 14 days of a seriously itchy rash, and is often accompanied by a couple of days of fever. About 1/20 000 die from it. Pretty much everyone gets it, and kids with chicken pox need to be quarantined during their sickness (at least, that’s what non-assholes do; assholes will deliberately infect others).

The chicken pox vaccine usually presents with soreness and mild swelling at the injection site, which in about 1/3 of cases might last for a day, and might be accompanied by fever. There are no deaths that have been associated with it.

So from a health standpoint, it’s obvious. Get the shot, because the alternative, getting the actual disease, is a lot worse. Our kids have had even milder reactions, and have been fine when they walked out of the doctor’s office.

FINANCIAL:
In calling it “no big deal” you are also ignoring the financial costs. Getting the vaccine costs a little bit of time at the doctor’s office (although we are there anyway for a physical) and maybe $100.

In contrast, if the child has chicken pox, he has to stay home for at least a week, which means that someone (my wife or myself) has to take off days of work. That presents a huge cost in terms of either salary or productivity (I’m on salary my wife on hourly). My wife only works two days a week, but if she has to miss those days of work, that costs us $800. In addition, if it is the child in daycare, we still pay the daycare costs. Alternatively, the child has to miss a week of school.

No big deal? That’s a royally big deal. Healthwise, it’s not even close. It’s a financial hassle. And, lastly, it’s a royal pain in the ass to have to juggle schedules.

You call that no big deal. As a parent, I call it all completely unnecessary. The kids are unnecessarily sick and miserable, and it’s an unnecessary hassle.

There is no upside to letting kids get the chicken pox, when it is completely avoidable, and avoiding it is far preferable to getting it.

And this is just the chicken pox, a so-called “mild” disease. Yet, getting vaccinated against it is obviously the right thing to do. Only a monster would let their child get the disease when there is such a good alternative to allow them to avoid it.

Bombshellrisa

Where is the button to like this 1000x? I need that button.
Chicken pox didn’t get me until I was 13 and the misery is still etched in my mind. I also have a couple scars that I am seriously thinking about getting a filler for. I recently had a 9 year old ask me about the scars and when I explained what they were from, had her ask me why I didn’t just get the shot. She took one look and said she was happy she would never have to go through chicken pox. (Of course, her mother is the one who is excited that there is a shingles vaccine, because she has seen all the older ones in her family suffer with that. The little girl is a fast learner, which is more than I can say for our current trolls).

Charybdis

My son had chicken pox when he was 9 months old, which is too young for the vaccine. He had a mild case, but has some scarring on his torso and up by his hairline.

Having a 9 month old with a crazy itchy rash was so much NOT FUN. Would I have preferred to wait on the vaccine? You bet.

But, hey, natural is better, amirite?

The Bofa on the Sofa

Having a 9 month old with a crazy itchy rash was so much NOT FUN.

Hey, it’s no big deal…

DelphiniumFalcon

I had it around that age too!

Then got it again when I was nine.

So much for that superior wild type immunity.

demodocus

Scarlet fever wasn’t a big deal for me or my parents, except that I woke up deaf. I eventually regained most of the hearing on one side and it only took me another 8 years to pronounce my native tongue correctly.

Dagfinn Klausen

For me, life in periods has been shit. But result has so far been good.
Humbly, I do not know how Your life has been, but assuming Your reading during these 8th years, has been an important part of Your life, may be You should thank The Lord, for what You have become.
Wish You the best!

Bombshellrisa

You really don’t get it, do you?

demodocus

Like most 4 year olds in my country, I was not yet literate. I thank God that my parents had the sense to get me vaccinated so at least I didn’t have to worry about those particular illnesses. We had enough to deal with back then.

LibrarianSarah

Please don’t condescend to or tell people how they should feel about their own disabilities. Telling people they should thank “The Lord” that they were deaf as a child is just as bad as saying “oh you poor thing being deaf must be the worst thing ever!” In fact, it might be worse because you are attempting to whitewash their struggle and their pain.

The Bofa on the Sofa

You know what you should be more thankful for than being deaf as a child?

Not being deaf at all because you didn’t get the fucking disease!

It may be better to get the disease as a child, but it’s even better to not get it in the first place. That’s the benefit of vaccination.

demodocus

Not that mine was really all that bad in the long run; just the speech impairment and the other side’s deafness lingered past Kindergarden. Mostly people don’t notice in normal conversation, including me, and i do my best to avoid situations where it becomes an issue. Introverts hate crowds anyway.
The blind one gets a lot more of that sort of nonsense. Depending on the day, he’s somewhere between annoyed and enraged. Thank God that he’s able to prove he can tie his own shoes AND walk across the street! But should I be letting him take the spawn with him? *eyeroll*

LibrarianSarah

That’s good I guess. It just grates on me when people tell other how to feel about their own disabilities. You would be entitled to feel angry about it if you did.

Yeah I’m not sure why people feel the need to infantilize the disabled. If you think someone needs help, offer don’t assume.

demodocus

I totally get it, especially once I started to hang out with my husband. I just didn’t want to claim greater personal knowledge than I have. There’s a real people short in an episode of Daniel Tiger about helping neighbors that just plain bugs the heck out of me. Yes, kid, move your bike off the sidewalk so the blind lady doesn’t trip over it, but she’s humoring you by letting you carry her groceries. Like I humor the toddler when he “helps.”

Who?

Patronising, callous nonsense.

From the school of thought that says ‘my kids got measles and were fine, who cares who else got sick because of them.

Lovely man.

Dagfinn Klausen

If You do not believe in God, that´s all right with me, but for me, that do, the only one that may judge me, is Jesus Christ.
So who are You to judging me?
Just give it some thought…

The Bofa on the Sofa

So who are You to judging me?

When you do things that put yourself at risk, I consider you a dumbass, but just roll my eyes.

However, when you do things that put my family at risk, which is what you do when you don’t vaccinate, at that point, it becomes personal, and I will judge you all I want.

Also, I will judge you for taking advantage of my family’s sacrifice. The reason why people who don’t vaccinate can get away with it is because folks like us DO vaccinate. Now, I am happy to do it for the sake of my family and society but it really pisses me off when others take advantage of it and don’t feel a need to contribute themselves. In fact, it’s especially bad when others won’t do it because they think it is too risky, and yet count on others to take that risk for them. A bunch of selfish assholes, and yes, I’m going to judge them as such.

Both my wife and I agreed, the children went through a visible change,
in the way they looked, and behaved, after recovering from the sickness.

Whereas my child went through no change at all after being vaccinated against measles. Well, okay, to tell the truth, she was annoyed for a good 5 minutes afterwards, but after that she was back to her normal self. Measles is immunosuppressive and carries a risk of death from (bacterial) pneumonia months to years after recovery.

Dagfinn Klausen

OK. Here we Go.

Who owns the rights to the Zika Virus?
Has the Tdap Vaccine anything to do with the babies?
What is the proof that Zika, and the babies, are connected?
Does it make sense to call out 200.000 soldiers to fight Zika?
Should US Athletes stay home?
Should the Games in Brazil be cancelled?
Should Brazil change their laws to admit abortion?
Is there a connection between Zika and Global warming?
If there is a vaccine to prevent Zika – would You take it?

Just for the record – after hours of debate, none of these important questions have been addressed, at all.

So, I uphold my conclusion, which is that This Forum, in my opinion, is just a big, sad, joke!

That having been said – Thank You very much, and good bye!

Megan

“Thank You very much, and good bye!”

Oh thank God. Is this the flounce?

Who?

Answers:

Who cares?
No-years of use of the vaccine has not thrown up anything like this.
No proof yet, it is a hypothesis.
Dunno.
Mebbe-but why US athletes only?
Too expensive and an overreaction-the World Cup went on amidst serious mosquito borne illnesses and seemed to go off ok.
Certainly should think about it, regardless of where the microcephaly situation is going.
Mosquitos are the vector, more warm areas means spreading mosquitos. Whether that is a connection is another question.
Yup-I don’t live in an area with those mossies but they are nearby and travel is frequent, cheap and easy.

Laugh it up, little man.

Bye, until next time.

Dagfinn Klausen

This discussion is no longer about facts, it´s now about me. Being tired, I have decided to go to bed. Sorry. See You all tomorrow!

Charybdis

We are still waiting on you to actually post some, you know, FACTS for us to respond to, instead of conspiracy theories and other drivel.

Dagfinn Klausen

Why waste Your time waiting?
Don´t You have something to bring to the debate yourself?

Let me give You some clues, You may follow up:
– Zika Virus damage to pregnant women, and their babies, may be overstated.
– Zika Virus has been around forever, without harming anybody.
– Tdap Vaccine never harmed anybody.

If so, why is the Brazilian Army out there spraying?
Why are they talking about calling off the Olympic Games?
Why are the WHO advising travelers to stay home?

Go figure it out – but, Oh, to be safe, be sure to wear a condom…

Rachele Willoughby

Are you seriously whining that, even though you’re a week late to this debate, we didn’t all sit around constantly refreshing the page for eight strait days just waiting for you to show up?

Dagfinn Klausen

Absolutely – that´s what You do!
Why? Honestly, I have no idea..

The Bofa on the Sofa

I agree, it’s not about facts. Not when you say stuff like this

Zika Virus was founded by Rockefeller Foundation,

Why should we even bother when you are so disconnected from anything resembling reality?

demodocus

By the way, Dagfinn, you may not be aware that we don’t capitalize the word “you” except as part of a title, the beginning of a sentence, or when addressing God in English.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank God, I am aware of Your argument. The reason I do it this way, is because that was the way, I was thought in school. And therefore, that is the way, I will always write it.

demodocus

Then you must have quite an uncommon dialect.

Dagfinn Klausen

May be You are right. My father was born out of a family of fishermen in Norway. And, if You have not figured it out yet, we are known for being quite stubborn. ;-))

Roadstergal

What was your IELTS band score?

demodocus

I’m a history teacher, dude. You don’t believe the SBM crowd or all the doctors and scientists here, so you expect the history teacher to give you explanations I already admitted I’m not qualified to give? I can tell you a lot of Norwegians were sort of sympathetic with the Nazis because the Nazis were fighting the Soviets. I can tell you that Pres. Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation didn’t actually free a single slave (it was more symbolic than anything). I can tell you Shinto has a sun goddess named Amaterasu and that the moon god (whose name I’ll need to look up) and the storm god Susanoo are her brothers. I can tell you Brazil was Portugal’s only American colony and recieved more African slaves than the US did (‘though i’d need to dig up that stat, too). I can’t tell you shit about Zika, microcephaly, or British or Brazilian airlines. I trust the scientists who study this sort of thing far more when it comes to hypotheses about the causes of Brazil’s new problem than I trust random people parachuting in to Dr. T’s obstetrics blog.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You.

Problem being, as long as nobody is able to prove to me, that there is any connection between Zika Virus and brain-damaged babies, and not ever how many cases we are talking about, I am going to treat the whole Zika-thing as a hoax. With Vaccines and Propaganda, there should, in my opinion, be very little room for trust. Only facts should matter.

And, You are absolutely right. Norway has a lot of Nazi history, that cannot withstand “the light of day”. Sorry to say, the problem is still there, with Norway attacking innocent people, in countries that never was a threat to us. Sad, but that belongs to another debate.

I am really sorry, if I have been treating You badly.

Besides that, I wish Brazil and their Population a great future and successful Olympics. Being part of BRICS though, make the Nation vulnerable to attack on many fronts…

The reason I write it the way, I do, is because that was the way, I was
thought at school. And therefore, that is the way, it will always be
written, by me.

And THAT is exactly your problem. You will hold on to something that is obvious to everyone who knows better is incorrect because it was erroneously taught to you once upon a time. If you won’t change something and inconsequential as the proper capitalization of the word “you” in the English language why should any of us waste are time trying to explain The Zika Virus to you?

Why should anyone engage with you at all since you won’t change your mind at all?

There is nothing wrong with making a mistake when writing in a foreign language. But when a native speaker points it out to you, you should have the integrity to make corrections. Not doing so is not mere stubbornness but a far more serious character flaw.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Maybe he learned to write from John Rappoport (whoever that is)?

DelphiniumFalcon

Maybe he is Jon Rappoport. I made the mistake of goggling the guy. He’s just as full of himself.

Don’t bother looking him up if you haven’t yet. That he’s an HIV Denialist is all I need to know.

Dagfinn Klausen

OK. We are now closing in to 10 hours of the debate. Some of You are admitting to having been asleep. The rest of You sound like You have been, but are in denial.

The situation now is as follows:
– Zika Virus was founded by Rockefeller Foundation, and registered as a Trade Mark.
– The official numbers of Zika related cases of birth defected babies are “shrinking”
– Abortion, that has been forbidden, is now part of the game
– Some crazy fellows, think that this is a great opportunity to introduce “Climate Change” into the discussion
– Tdap double blind test conclude that more testing is needed
– A Nordic Viking Parachutes into the discussion, to save You from Your own lack of knowledge, and ability to have a decent argument.

Nick,
What are You trying to say? Don´t be shy – I can sure take it.
Please spear me Your links – haven´t got the time.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Please spear me Your links

Are you kidding?

Until you started crying about how no one was responding, all you did was post links, including a completely meaningless video to some whacko.

And you have the nerve to tell someone to “spear (sic) me Your (sic) links”?

This goes right up there with your claim that the virus was “founded” by the Rockefeller group.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You. “Founded” was a terrible word to use and “spear” also. Please bear with me.

But, having admitted to that, what was Your point?
– Was it about Zika and abortion?
– Was it Zika and Global Warming?
– Was it Zika and microsephaly?
– Was it about Tdap and microsephaly?
– Or did You have an urge to explain to me why 200.000 soldiers are spraying pesticides around Brazil?
– Or warning me not to enter an airplane from London, that has been sprayed?

Or may be You have an uncle that can tell us the truth about Zika Virus, and who owns it?

May I guess? You have absolutely nothing to bring to the table. Please make me regret…

Charybdis

My guess would be that they are spraying the pesticides to help lower the mosquito population as quickly as possible to help slow the spreading of the Zika as much as possible.

No one owns the Zika virus. Who put that idea into your little head? It has been around for a long time, yes, but on a totally different continent. And, vaccination *may* not be up to snuff in some of those African countries (I honestly don’t know the level of TDaP vaccine compliance in Africa countries).

So what exactly is YOUR point here?

Dagfinn Klausen

My point is simple. Seems like neither You, nor anybody else on this Forum, have any clue about what is causing babies to be born brain damaged.

Worse Yet – nobody seems to care…

Wonder why?

Who?

No one in the world knows what is causing it, but smart people who know all about these things are thinking about it, and that’s good enough. That is their day job, after all.

I lack the grandiosity to think that in my ignorance, a continent away, I can come up with an explanation and solution on top of doing my day job. Others are not letting their ignorance and distance slow them down.

Just because no one here thinks you have anything of value to add doesn’t mean no one here cares.

Nick Sanders

I care plenty, but devoting all my time and energy to arguing with random loons on the internet isn’t going to help a single Brazilian baby.

Charybdis

There are all sorts of reasons babies are born with brain damage. Mother uses drugs, smokes, goes on alcohol binges. Chromosomal abnormalities. Lack of oxygen during labor and delivery. Exposure to lead, mercury and other heavy metals. Exposure to other environmental toxins. Illness in the mother that affects the fetus. See, all sorts of things. Do I care? Sort of, in a global way. But agonizing about each and every baby born with microcephaly in Brazil? No. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

It is logical to first look at the most recent variable introduced before abnormalities started showing up. In Brazil, it is the Zika virus. Research is beginning to bear that out, as the TDaP has been given to pregnant women for decades with no spike in microcephaly.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

MaineJen

You have time to bombard us with links and expect us to come back at you with thoughtful arguments, but you haven’t the time to read our links?

You want to learn, you can’t do that without some effort on your part. So either engage your brain, or quit engaging your keyboard.

Charybdis

No one is claiming that vaccines have absolutely NO side effects, ever. Most of them fall into the category of “Mild headache, mild body aches, tenderness at the injection site, slight fever, nausea, etc…”. Rarely, people do have an extreme reaction to a vaccine, this is why there are vaccine injury compensations. Some people are allergic to something in the vaccine, and depending on the severity of the reaction, may be medical waivered out of vaccination.

So, yes, vaccines can, on a rare occasion, cause damage to a person. But on the whole, they are safe and effective.

And adults get the TDaP, not the DTaP. The DTaP is for children under 7 years of age.

I’m Danish on my Dad’s side but that doesn’t mean I am a Viking Goddess of some sort. You being Nordic doesn’t mean you automatically know how to sail a boat. My Danish ancestors would probably be very disappoint with my goose herding skills. So I don’t see how you being Nordic has to do with this besides giving me fodder for some very off color rise of Nazi Germany Aryan Superman jokes.

demodocus

My grandpa is Swedish. He can’t fish, either. My Anglo-American father and Irish father-in-law on the other hand…

Charybdis

You haven’t posted any facts, nor have you exhibited any of what we call “thinking for yourself”. Regurgitating a mixed bag of links and whackadoodle claims does not count.

Dagfinn Klausen

Time is running out. It´s now 8, going to 9 hours…
So far, nobody, I repeat nobody, has given any serious input to my first seven statements.
Neither have You.
“Shit, or get off the pot”

Rachele Willoughby

What seven statements? Explain it to me like I’m dumb. With bullet points, preferably.

I’m starting to think that I can’t see some of your posts?

Dagfinn Klausen

Thumbs up for being serious. Thank You.

1. Video of John Rappoport
2. Faximile of Internet offer of Zika Virus at UUR 599,-
3. Fewer Zika-related microcephaly cases reported
4. Abortion is now part of the debate
5. And so is Climate change
6. Further research needed for Tdap double blind test
7. Seems, I am the only skeptical one on the Forum

Charybdis

#2: Researchers have to have a place to obtain the virus so that research can be conducted. Buying it certainly makes it easier than trying to isolate it from a mosquito.

#3: There has been a bit of time since the virus was first found in the Americas, so perhaps a bit of tolerance is developing. However, it has not been shown that ALL pregnant women who contract the virus will have a microcephalic baby. It seems tied to the timing of the infection. Earlier in pregancy (first trimester probably, since that is when the CNS develops), the greater the chance of microcephaly developing.

#4: Abortion has always been part of the debate. It should be up to the women who are pregnant (and their partners) to decide if a termination is right for them, if they have caught the Zika virus during early pregnancy. People don’t like to talk about it and as a major Catholic country, it is certainly not encouraged. But if you are a poor woman with a child or two already and an unknown chance of having a baby that will need a lifetime of special care that is often out of their financial reach, an abortion may be the lesser of two evils. Plus, on a cynical note, the Pope has stated that in this year of mercy, absolution for abortion may be granted by a priest and/or bishop instead of having to go further up the church hierarchy.

#5: Climate change is not helping with the spread of mosquitoes and mosquito-borne illnesses. As temperatures get warmer, the mosquito’s range expands into areas that were, in the past, not typically bothered by mosquitoes. Not sure what the point of this was….

6. They do not test vaccines with a double-blind test, as that would be unethical and a nightmare. That is not the way it is done.

#7: Again, you don’t come across as skeptical. You come off as gulilble, paranoid and more than a touch crazy.

Dagfinn Klausen

Lengthy talk.
When the US Olympic Team decides to stay home, because of the Zika Virus – in Your opinion, do they come out gulilble, paranoid and more than a touch crazy?

Nick Sanders

Unless they are pregnant or considering becoming pregnant.

Dagfinn Klausen

Nick,
Are You serious?
Pregnant or planning to be so?
Training for Olympics?
Marathon?
May be not!

Please bear with me, but Your statement is so stupid, it should at least qualify for ten Ave Marias….

Do You agree with me?

The Bofa on the Sofa

Would you agree with me that if everyone on the olympic team were to dye their eyebrows purple and amputate their left foot, then they must be gullible, paranoid, or crazy, right?

Because it’s just as likely to happen.

Dagfinn Klausen

Absolutely – and it would be historic!

The Bofa on the Sofa

And as I said, it is just as likely to happen as the team boycotting because of Zika.

So do you have any semblance of a point, or are you just rambling randomly?

Dagfinn Klausen

My point is, that until somebody is capable to prove the connection between Zika Virus and microcephaly, am going to treat it as a hoax. At least it is now time somebody is capable of providing some numbers, that cannot easily be debunked.

When somebody threatens to withdraw from The Olympics, I agree with You. It will never happen. It is just Propaganda, as part of the hoax.

When somebody connect Zika with contraceptives, abortion and the Catolic Church, it is Propaganda.

When somebody drags Zika Virus into the Global Clamate Change debacle, long before we have any proof that there is any connection between Zika and microcephaly, it becomes almost laughable.

When we read about “abortions at sea”, where innocent, (and may be illiterate), women goes on a boat, taking them into International waters and perform a legal abortion, it is really sad.

Yesterday, because nobody on the Forum seemed to comprehend this, it mad me starting to ramble. Sorry about that!

If, I should submit some new input that may lead to answers to this Zika Virus debacle, it would be that a group of Brazilian doctors, claim that it is not Zika, Tdap, GMO mosquitos – it may be Chemicals added to the drinking water.

You admit “Regrettably, I do not have sufficient knowledge to give You an answer You deserve,”

But hey, you found some Brazilian doctors who don’t think it’s Zika, and you will listen to them instead of all the doctors who.

Bombshellrisa

It’s amazing that you can make sense of what you have just written, yet can’t follow the simple logic we keep presenting here.

Nick Sanders

That’s my point, genius. The Zika virus is generally only dangerous to fetuses, so there isn’t a reason for most of the Olympic team to worry, likely not any of them. The spectators, on the other hand…

Dagfinn Klausen

So, having actually, myself, been a contender for the Olympic Games in 1976 in Kingston…
In hindsight, You recommend I should have combined that with having a baby?
Well. whatever, I reckon it´s too late now…

Charybdis

You do realize that you are rambling in a most disconnected fashion and are not making any sense whatsoever?

Nick Sanders

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Dagfinn Klausen

No Nick, I am just trying to seeking the truth in a jungle of lies and disinformation. Until somebody is able to give me firm proof of a connection between Zika and microcephaly, or at least come up with an official number of cases, that is not easily debunked – I am going to treat the whole Zika debacle as a hoax.

Bombshellrisa

“Zika is from the flavivirus family, a group of viruses that cause yellow fever, Nile fever and dengue fever. Some of these viruses cause encephalitis, inflammation of the brain in adults, and can be life threatening.
We already know that some viral infections during pregnancy can cause birth defects. Perhaps the best example is German measles (rubella), which in early pregnancy can cause damage to the heart, ears and brain.

We know that flaviviruses related to Zika cause microcephaly in newborn animals following an infection during pregnancy. What is frightening is the huge increase in numbers of microcephaly cases in Brazil since the Zika outbreak. There is a strong correlation between the spread of Zika in Brazil and the growing number of babies born with microcephaly.While this does not prove that the Zika virus is the direct cause of the microcephaly, genetic material from the virus has been detected in both mothers and in their amniotic fluid (a pregnant woman’s “waters”), indicating Zika has the potential to infect an unborn baby while in the womb

Given that other members of this virus family cause microcephaly in newborn animals, there is good reason to believe that microcephaly and the Zika virus epidemic are linked.” This is from Neil Vargesson’s article.

Dagfinn Klausen

Regrettably I do not have sufficient knowledge to give You the answer, You deserve, but here is what a team of Brazilian doctors have stated in a report.
Their conclusion being, that it is not the Zika Virus that is our problem.http://tinyurl.com/gqej4br

Bombshellrisa

The answer is that while it isn’t proven that Zika is the exact cause, there is strong correlation to support that theory. Your link doesn’t discredit that. It’s also written by people whose main concern is to call attention to pesticides and create a conspiracy around their use.

Dagfinn Klausen

And what, if I may ask, is this claimed strong correlation?

Bombshellrisa

Are you really that unable to reason? Ok, here it is AGAIN, and you need to read every word, sound them out if necessary and think about what the sentence is. Zika virus is from a family of viruses called flavivirus. The same family that cause Nile Fever, dengue fever and yellow fever. These viruses can cause inflammation of the brain in adults. Zika specifically has been proven to cause microcephaly in animals. It is proven that viral infections during pregnancy can cause birth defects in humans. Zika virus can be found in amniotic fluid, which means there is a potential for babies to be infected while still in the womb. Those are the correlations that we are talking about.

Charybdis

But I thought that was your whole damn point. You weren’t getting any “real” responses to your posts, so you were going to bed. I replied rather thoughtfully to most of your enumerated list and get told “Lengthy talk”.

Please be consistent in your babbling. It makes it hard to follow.

And I don’t think the US Olympic Team is thinking of staying home. If they are pregnant NOW, they most likely will not be going to the games as they will be too far along to compete when summer rolls around. If they are thinking of getting pregnant, then they should beef up their contraception. Plus, I doubt many athletes at that elite level would jeopardize their chance in the Olympics by being pregnant when the games occur.

Taking precautions to help reduce your chance of getting bitten by a mosquito carrying Zika is practical. Long sleeves and pants, lots of repellent, that sort of thing, is about all you can do.

Dagfinn Klausen

I have a habit of sleeping with one eye open. Good point.

Charybdis

What is/was this in response to…it makes no sense as it is.

Roadstergal

“If they are thinking of getting pregnant, then they should beef up their contraception.”

OT – my husband’s ortho has been the official doctor for one of the US Olympic teams for a few rounds (I can’t remember which sport offhand), and he told m’boy during a checkup that at least as much of his work is around contraception and STDs as around sports injuries… apparently, you get a lot of young, fit, aggressive people together in one village, and they want to knock boots. A lot.

An Actual Attorney

Wasn’t it the London games that crashed Grindr? But that’s, as I understand it, usually after your competition.

Charybdis

I’m not surprised at all.

An Actual Attorney

If you aren’t pregnant, isn’t zika not a big deal?

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You for Your honest feedback. I was rude to You, without any reason, which I deeply regret. Please accept my sincere apology.

Roadstergal

OMFG, people actually think that buying specimens to do research on is somehow… new? Nefarious?

Hey, we also buy gels and probes and flow cytometers and gloves and lab coats and…

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You. I needed somebody to stop me raving. I will, from now on, try hard to be calm, and if so, hoping to come over as serious.

I would very much appreciate Your opinion on the claims from these Brazilian Doctors. They seam real to me, but I do not have the right background to judge.

If claims are provable, it may not be Zika, Tdap Vaccine, or GMO Mosquitos, that is to be blamed for microcephaly, but chemicals, added to the drinking water.

Which seven statements? Perhaps you are hearing them differently in YOUR head and the meaning, apparently crystal clear to you, is lost in translation.

I prefer “Fish or cut bait”. And if we are tossing out random sayings, here’s a couple for you.
“That old dog don’t hunt”
“I’m skinning this cat, your’re just holding its tail”
“How do you like them apples?”

And one of my favorites: “Stop babbling. You don’t know come here from sic’em.”

MaineJen

Wow, you are really…special. We have heard all of your arguments already. Nuts parachute in here all the time hoping to “educate” us. YAWN You see coherent arguments…we see links from conspiracy theorist sites. Not impressed.

Dagfinn Klausen

OK everybody.
8 hours ago I posted my facts. Until now, nobody has posted anything than luke-warm air and personal attacks. If this is all You´re capable of – how about getting lost?

The Bofa on the Sofa

You didn’t post any facts, nor any real claims. Spamming the board with links is not going to generate much response. You got something to say, say it.

Dagfinn Klausen

Absolutely, like Churchill would have put it – which he did not, “Shit or get off the Pot”.
I said a lot – You nothing.
Be part of the debate – or get lost

Rachele Willoughby

What debate? Zika? Global Warming? Whether or not you’re actually covered in polytetrafluoroethylene?

You haven’t actually made any *points* yet.

Charybdis

Yes, please clue us in on exactly which debate you are babbling about. There are quite a number to choose from on this site.

And if you are covered in Teflon ™, you might want to have that checked out. It is not a natural, normal state of existence.

MaineJen

It’s so adorable watching these guys try to engage us. I wonder when he’ll start calling us all shills.

Rachele Willoughby

All *the same* shill.

Dagfinn Klausen

You confuse me – are You part of this debate? To me it doe´s not look so. Bear with me, if I am wrong.

Rachele Willoughby

Spamming a *week old* post with a bunch of (unlabeled) links.

Also, get lost? You parachuted in here. We din’t hop over to *your* blog to try and disinfect all the crazy.

Nick Sanders

Oh, I’m so sorry that I didn’t arrive on your schedule. 8 hours ago was 3 AM for me. I guess being in bed was my fault, and it totally means your are right.

And I dear You.
Do You really think they the Zika Virus is the cause of the birth of babies with shrunken heads?
I am getting quite frustrated. Now, 10 hours after entering the debate, it has been all about me, and absolutely nothing abut Zika.

demodocus

I gave you a link that explains some of why scientists think the microcephaly outbreak is related to Zika. Novella included other links. Here is a video from a fairly well respected news group in my country. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/#171048
Not that you believe me. Also, you can go look up your own disqus account for the answers people gave you before everybody here got bored.

Dagfinn Klausen

Thank You. I assure You, I will.

Dagfinn Klausen

Sorry – Nothing there!

Dagfinn Klausen

Looks like we have a problem in the debate. DJEB is talking i toungues. Me no follow!

This virus was first isolated in Uganda in 1947, within a small enclave called Zika Forest, near the west shore of Lake Victoria, where researchers from the Rockefeller Foundation were studying yellow fever.http://tinyurl.com/grvpb9u

It is for sale on Internet freeze dried for EUR 599,-
Nobody knows who has the rights to obtain Royalty, in case a successful vaccine or test is developed.

DJEB

You were whinging about ‘attackin the facts’ above. How about providing some and not derp conspiracy hypotheses?

Nick Sanders

Actually, the whole point of these things being patented by big trusts is that nobody gets royalties. The patents are givin to non-profit institutes too big to be bought out, that way, for profit companies can’t own them and squat on the rights, which is really bad for research.

Dagfinn Klausen

I have absolutely no idea, whether this is real or not, but congratulation to You. After 10 hours, You are the first to post a replay that is relevant to the debate!

Dagfinn Klausen

“Further research is needed to provide definitive evidence of the safety and efficacy of Tdap immunization during pregnancy”.
Conclusion of double blind test for Tdap Vaccine (2014).http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24794369

By the way, You should listen to the Video I linked to above. This guy may not have been on the moon, but he absolutely, in my mind, even I do not agree to everything he claims to know, seems to make a lot of sense!

Nick Sanders

Wow, that was the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all week.

Dagfinn Klausen

Coming from somebody, that claims he has no clue who John Rappoport is. I absolutely believe You.

Have You heard about the Zika Virus, and what may cause microcephaly?

If so, tell us something we don´t know, or please go away! But Nick, You never go away, do You?

Myself, I seriously doubt it.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Coming from somebody, that claims he has no clue who John Rappoport is. I absolutely believe You.

Why should anyone know who John Rappoport is?

Who?

I have no idea who John Rappaport is, and since DK is quoting him, and DK is erratic and misguided, I have no desire to find out.

The Bofa on the Sofa

To be fair, my disinterest in finding out who John Rappoport is has nothing to do with DK, and is basically my general approach to any random “argument by youtube video”. I let the schmoe who post it tell me why I should care. If they don’t, then I won’t.

Nick Sanders

Upon reflection, it has occurred to me that someone who has never heard of him, reading his rambles for the first time, is quite likely to be encountering the most ridiculous thing of their week.

Nick Sanders

Why should I go away? I was here long before you were.

Dagfinn Klausen

That was exactly what Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi, and Bashar-Assad claimed.
If You think, You have friends in high places, I suggest You think again.

Nick Sanders

The hell? This is a blog, not a country, and I’m a poster that’s been a good faith member for a long time, not a dictator abusing his people. How high are you?

Felicitasz

This is beyond comprehension. I had to read the first part twice, it is just so absurd.
OT: thank you for the cdc leaflet conversation. I raised an eyebrow upon seeing the material this past week but I never thought any further to consider the impact of alcohol on young men as well. I will call my husband and tell him to come home immediately from that pub night he went to. We don’t plan to have any more babies but we have to admit it still MIGHT happen. I realize now how risky it is for any potential father to have that one or two beer about once in every two months when his circle of friends happen to have a free evening all at the same time. There is just simply no excuse for taking any risk whatsoever. I think I should warn his friends, too.

Sean Jungian

Oh I was just nattering on further about the topic, not implying any criticism of anything you said. Just expanding on the thought. As you say, it’s harder on you, and I really do understand that – and you don’t disguise something that is hard on you as being something that is hard on your kids and a reason that they need your constant attention.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Please tell me I’m not the only one who is picturing Dr. Amy as the Joker saying to, say, Andrew Wakefield’s Batman, “One little vaccine that can’t possibly cause this problem and anti-vaxxers lose their minds!” Or something similar. I’m sure there’s a better meme in there somewhere.

Jay

Except Wakefield would be the Joker and Dr. Tuteur the Batman.

Dagfinn Klausen

Hey Ate, I´m back. Be sure You don´t miss the action!

Dagfinn Klausen

Don´t forget Your Prozac, You may need them…

BeatriceC

OT: I visited my potential baby again today. He might actually be a she. The bird needs to be sexed to know for sure, but certain things point to it being a girl. MrC and I decided that between what we spent getting my car running again and the fact that his car now needs some work, a few impending large expenses on the house, plus the near-doubling of rates for power, we can’t spend $2000 this week, however, we can put aside $500/mo. The breeder is wiling to work with me, particularly after seeing us interact. The bird seems to really like me, and even allowed me to flip her over and scratch her belly (not something birds do often). They can’t guarantee that Oliver/Olivia won’t be sold, but they will try to keep her around for a few more months. Here’s today’s picture (and the little caique on my shoulder was fluttering about being a bit of an attention whore as well…I wish I could afford both.)

Awwww! I love birds! Cockatiels are more my skill level, though. And I can’t even get one of those as long as Pearl (in my avatar) the Great Huntress is around. Some day…

Dagfinn Klausen

Going to school 50 Years ago, an Ara was a very memorable companion. Having lunch every day in a Pet-shop, I gave him/she some banana, and the parrot, sitting on my shoulder, immediately turned around and put it into my mouth, to feed me.
Very nice memories.
Wish You Good luck!

BeatriceC

Thanks. I wound up getting a little Senegal parrot. I still want to get a macaw, but I’ll take the time to save money for one without making this little one wait for a real home. The little Senegal is currently chirping away on my shoulder as I type.

The recommendation now says that, not only should we never let a drop of alcohol pass our pure, Maddona-like lips during pregnancy, we also shouldn’t be drinking if there’s any chance, at all, that we may become pregnant (and it’s hinted that we shouldn’t be drinking at all if we’re of child bearing age).

Bonus points for the super-patronizing info-graphic and non-ironic use of the phrase “Why take the risk?”

Rachele Willoughby

The super-patronizing graphic for ya’ll.

LaMont

If you want to prevent pregnancy and make it safer, why not advise on better birth control methods? You’re already talking about women having sex without birth control (though the stuff I’ve read wasn’t super specific about if condoms count to these prudes) and not thinking about the possibility of pregnancy – why isn’t THAT the bigger public health concern than the alcohol? Women are getting pregnant when they do not want to be – THAT is the situation to counteract, not the drinking! I swear I’m prepping for the day that women all need to get tested before being served in bars. Servers will all have finger-stick blood tests that somehow give instant results… I await the creeptastic sci-fi future!

The Computer Ate My Nym

Heart disease? I thought moderate alcohol use was associated with a mild decrease in the risk of heart disease. Well, arterial vascular disease.

RMY

Great, so violence is a woman’s fault because she drinks? That’s a message no one needs to hear.

Rachele Willoughby

Yep. Yuck.

Roadstergal

Note that there is no corresponding graphic for men, stating that you should not be violent and rapey.

guest

Where’s the poster telling men to stop drinking because it lowers their inhibition and puts them at increase risk of committing violence against women? WHERE’S THAT POSTER, CDC???

Nick Sanders

I really, really hope they meant that some people get violent when they are drunk, not that being drunk makes you liable for violence inflicted upon yourself.

guest

This is fascinating. If you’re not 21 years old and you have a drink, you are drinking “too much”! I drank moderately when I was 20…because I was living in the UK and therefore of age.

Roadstergal

This is going to change Catholic mass, for those of that persuasion. :p No birth control allowed, and therefore no savior-blood…

Nick Sanders

So, one drink a day with dinner, and an extra on Saturdays, is excessive? Really?

demodocus

2 cups of tea a day is apparently excessive.

Monkey Professor for a Head

I switched from coffee to tea when I was pregnant precisely so I could have a second cup if I wanted to without feeling bad!

demodocus

Depends on the size of your mugs 😉

Rachele Willoughby

Or four drinks in three hours. Ever. Apparently I have a drinking problem?

Amy M

However, grandmas should feel free to cut loose? 😉

Roadstergal

Yes. Just in general. 🙂

guest

The give us the all-clear at age 44, because clearly the fetus of anyone who gets pregnant after 44 is doomed anyway, I guess.

demodocus

Wow. I’m a teetotaler and this is annoying me. I’ll make sure to inform my gay best friend that she should stop having the monthly wine cooler. Just in case. *eyeroll*

Rachele Willoughby

It’s just so damn paternalistic. Not to mention it treats women as walking incubators or potential walking incubators.

Megan

Right. Don’t drink because you could get pregnant at any moment!!

Rachele Willoughby

And if you do get pregnant, it’s your god-given responsibility to drop everything about you that you need and enjoy to care for that precious life blossoming inside of you. After all, is your enjoyment (of chocolate, caffeine, alcohol, soft cheese, lunch meat, strenuous exercise, sushi…) worth possibly harming an innocent child?

Why take the risk, you heartless monster?!?

demodocus

my chocolate is staying in my pregnancy diet! And who calls 1 cup of tea a day moderate?

demodocus

Like you can’t keep track of the last time you had sex or your period without any sanctimonious idiocy. One thing to suggest to your daughters that if they’re late and have had sex within the last few weeks that maybe they should wait a bit before they have 2 or 3 mojitos in a row. Quite another to say “don’t drink until you’re 49, just in case”

demodocus

‘though my dad would probably have prefered “no sex or alcohol until you’re 80”. Yeah, even for me that wasn’t happening.

Megan

I saw this and thought it was crazy. I mean, how do they think most babies get made? 🙂 I mean, it’s a freaking Jimmy Buffet song!

The Bofa on the Sofa

“Why don’t we get drunk and have-safe-sex-using-multiple-forms-of-birth-control…”

Megan

Doesn’t have quite the same ring to it. 🙂

The Bofa on the Sofa

You have to envision me with a Parrothead hat on.

FYI: I had breakfast at Jimmy Buffet’s in Waikiki in December. I had pancakes with pineapple. I think the macademia nuts would have been better.

Megan

Sounds delicious, parrothead hat or no!

The Bofa on the Sofa

It was pancakes with some small bits of pineapple on it. Nothing earth shattering.

But it was fun watching the surfing highlights on the big TV. i had been up to the North Shore the day before to watch the surfers, so had a good appreciation for what I was seeing (although I wasn’t at the beach where the competition was happening)

KarenJJ

I’m pretty certain I’m not the only mother that got confused between hangover and morning sickness while waiting to start another round of IVF.

indigosky

Um, isn’t it possible that the majority of those 3.3 million women are TRYING to get pregnant, thus whey they are not on birth control? And that women are actually smart enough to know when to drink? Because when we were trying to conceive, every time Aunt Flo showed up, I drank my sorrows away. But once I was nearing my ovulation time until my period appeared, no booze for me.

But that never occurred to the CDC, did it?

Madtowngirl

I mean, I had always heard that nothing really impacted the embryo until a point at which you’d know you’re pregnant (assuming you had regular cycles). I had a glass of wine about the time I got pregnant. Must be why she’s formula fed.

swbarnes2

The clinical evidence is quite clear that folic acid taken BEFORE you test pregnant does make a measurable difference in preventing neural tube defects like spina bifida. Not sure anything else is proven

Roadstergal

Which is why folic acid is everywhere in our food… but that doesn’t stop me from getting my drink on.

Madtowngirl

Good point, I forgot about folic acid.

guest

I was hoping Dr. Tuteur would address these press releases, in fact.

My main takeaway from the whole thing is the the CDC and most of the news outlets need to hire better writers, people who know how to phrase things so that intended meaning comes through.

Nick Sanders

Dammit Jim, I’m a doctor, not a publicist!

Charybdis

Dammit Jim, I’m a drinker, not a mother!

swbarnes2

But I think the intention is “ladies, you need to be better incubators, even if you have no intention of having a baby now”.

guest

That’s how it reads. I am hoping their intention was less sexist. Sometimes I am an optimist.

Allie

Two comments: first, by that logic, men who plan on having children should also refrain as alcohol use affects sperm quality. Second, and somewhat OT, my 3-year-old just saw me take a sip from my pint glass and asked, “you like beer, mama?” Gonna have to start hiding my vices : /

She thinks her midwives did everything right…except for the part where they let a post-date woman with low fluid labor at home (alone for most of it) and where they let a woman wait a few hours without her placenta coming out.

Megan

“I was hot, which lowers your blood pressure.”

Yeah, that’s it. It had nothing to do with the fact that you were hemorrhaging.

Megan

Sorry, meant to reply to jo march. My bad.

The Computer Ate My Nym

And the tinctures of god-knows-what which might have brought on gall bladder pain and may well have increase the bleeding.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Also, angelica has been established to increase bleeding when given with warfarin. Not clear whether it does anything on its own, but not what I’d choose to give a woman with a retained placenta who is at risk for massive bleeding.

Madtowngirl

…….holy shit.

Sean Jungian

Good grief. “this is not how I wanted to end my birth.” and there you have it – it was not ‘her’ birth, it was her DAUGHTER’S. She’s antivax, NCB, EBF and anti-Circ “homesteader and doula”, I would almost think she was a Poe the way she checks off every box on the Crunchy Warrior Mommy checklist. And she’d fight tooth and nail for her “right” to suffer this way, and to make her children suffer, all the while no doubt shaming any woman who does NOT choose to suffer needlessly nor to force her children to do so. These folks make me want to knock my head against a wall.

Sean Jungian

Oh no, why, oh WHY did I go to that forum? It’s all I can do not to just slap some sense into some of the parents there. Just read a post about how a mom who does attachment parenting is going to be leaving her one-year old for an entire 4 hours OMG and she is totally freaking out – and it’s for an anniversary date with her husband. Look, I get not wanting to leave your child, I remember how it felt when my son was an infant, *BUT* omg the whole point of raising a child is raising them to be an independant, healthy ADULT is it not? Isn’t learning to be without mama and dada part of growing up? I’m not saying lay down a big bag of (organic) cereal and leave the toilet seat up so you can abandon your 1-year old for a week while you go to Hawaii, but SURELY your snowflake can manage 4 whole hours – no doubt 2 of them ASLEEP – without you?

Elizabeth A

IMO, the best week ever on the internet was the week that attachment parenting guru Katie Allison Granju admitted that she ripped open a box of sugar cereal under her desk so that her kids would leave her alone to write. I briefly felt almost like she was telling me my kids and I would be fine.

BeatriceC

I am so the opposite of that AP it’s not even funny. I think I’m probably more accurately described as “free range”. My older two have county transit passes and make their way around almost the entirety of San Diego County all by themselves (plans discussed and approved by me, kids also tracked with the find my iPhone app to ensure honesty). The youngest, while only 11 months younger than the middle, doesn’t have nearly as much freedom, but disability and personality issues make it inappropriate. He gets the amount of freedom appropriate for his age and maturity level, just like his brothers. AP parents would be horrified by me. I’ve always let my kids explore their independence boundaries from the time they were little. Of course at the toddler age, that looks more like making a gigantic mess in the kitchen as they try to help me cook dinner, or spilling a half a box of cereal as they try to pour it themselves as preschoolers, but I definitely think that giving kids the opportunity to do things for themselves makes life easier for everybody, including the kids.

CSN0116

I am the antithesis of crunchy.

I call myself squishy 😉

Death to crunch. Long live squish!

MaineJen

We may be related…I am another free range parent.

demodocus

We’re pretty new at this, but i suspect that’s i’m with you and MaineJen. Blindy’s got to be a little more direct contact when he’s watching toddlerboy, of course.

Roadstergal

I was raised free-range. I loved it. And it didn’t make me love my parents any less, or feel any less cared for and protected.

KeeperOfTheBooks

One of the very few things my parents got right was in allowing my sister and I to ride our bikes everywhere and miles away from home. We lived near an Ivy League university, and would not infrequently, when the weather allowed, bicycle off to a museum or historic house associated with the uni for the afternoon to enjoy looking at dinosaur fossils/reproductions of important scientific finds/et all. I got a far better education from that and from being set loose in libraries and bookstores (pretty much the other thing they did right, though they’d have been horrified at some of the stuff I read) than I did anywhere else.

Sean Jungian

I think I would *LOVE* to be free-range. It’s not that I don’t allow my (now 14-yr-old) son any freedom, it’s that he seems to be more of a “clinger” than I was when I was a kid? I have to really push him to go out and try new things. This is a boy who never even ONCE tried to climb out of his crib – and if I’m being honest I think he’d still be using that crib if I hadn’t gotten rid of it. He likes stability and routine, that one. We live in a tiny rural community so there is nothing stopping him from going out on his bike and roaming around – I encourage it! But that might actually be why he spends so much time at home, there’s more fun things to do here.

Roadstergal

And as often mentioned, every kid is different. I would have felt so smothered if I were ‘attached,’ while some kids love it.

BeatriceC

Each kid is different. I have two that area extremely independent and one that’s far more needy. They key is that you give each child the amount of freedom that’s right for them. My 16 year old thought nothing of leaving the Christmas festivities at MIL’s house in Los Angeles a day early to take a train back home to San Diego. My 14yo has been getting himself to school on the public bus/trolley (no school buses for non-SPED or disabled kids) for two years. My 13 year old wouldn’t be ready for that even if he weren’t in a wheelchair. He does, however, get himself to the park one block down by himself, chair and all, so it’s a start.

Charybdis

DS is an odd mix. I have taught him to ( and then expect him to do): put gas in the car, run into the store for milk, run into the restaurant to pick up a carry-out order, vacuum, load and unload the dishwasher, run the dryer and fold laundry, clean the mirrors, clean the toilet, order a carry-out order over the phone, steam clean the carpet, sweep and mop the tile floors, and a few other life skills that escape me at the moment.

He is a good student (mostly), active and fairly self-confident. And his House just won the annual dodge-ball tournament at his school. I have always maintained that he is his own person and not an extension of either me or my husband. So I have encouraged independence from the start. Holding his own bottle when he got big enough, teaching him to pour his own beverages, pour cereal, use the oven, microwave, and stove, encouraging independent thought and actions, etc.

I frequently tell him that the way we learn is by making mistakes and that nothing is *unfixable. I want him to feel okay trusting me enough to tell me even the bad things. The consequences may not be to his liking, but being honest is the best policy.

However, there are rules that must be followed and behavior standards that are in place, but in things that really don’t matter in the long run, he has a lot of leeway. We are his parents, not his best friends and it is our job to lovingly mold, shape and guide him into being a decent, responsible human being. No matter how much he resists the process.

And the rules are subject to change at any time for his safety or our amusement.

Bugsy

My former friend who was over-the-top with AP was quite smug about how she had only left her preschooler for a couple of thirty -minute time frames that entire year. I was already feeling pretty drained as a stay-at-home mom with not much of a support network – we had just moved to Canada from the states, and didn’t have close friendships here yet. Her self-righteousness that not leaving her kid was the “proper” parenting style only made me feel like a complete and utter failure for desperately needing some occasional time away from my son.

Old Lady

My close friend was very AP and would not only bed share but her child would only nap on top of her. Just spending time with her while the toddler napped gave me a sense of being horribly trapped. I was already not planning on bed sharing but watching her go through it made me say hell no to AP parenting. I would have done cry it out before getting to that point, as much as I love cuddling my kids, and cry it out is a last resort for me. Thankfully I’ve not had to to it so far, they would settle themselves after only <5 minutes crying for the most part.

Sean Jungian

You couldn’t pay me to bed-share. I lived for those hours of privacy lol. I tried it ONCE (I did BF for about 8 months) and I hated the feeling of half-waking up and being nursed on. I’m sure other women love it but for me it was not something I wanted to repeat.

Bugsy

My friend was similar. Even though she was adamant that her parenting style was “proper” and “correct” – even using said words to describe it – “trapped” would be about the best way I could describe it. She was heavily in the throes of it when I visited her when her son was 3, and at that point she had already become a shell of her former self.

She was fixated on being “proper,” and giving her child the most wonderful, healthiest upbringing imaginable…yet on that visit as I watched her forlornly heat a scoop of butter in a metal measuring cup over the open flame of her gas stove – her husband had done away with their microwave, and self-popped GMO-free popcorn was one of the few treats she could allow her allergic-to-GMOs son – I realize that I didn’t even recognize the friend I had known and loved for 25 years. She had become trapped both in her need to create the “perfect” upbringing for her son as well as her in fears of the world beyond their control. I still miss the person she was. 🙁

Old Lady

We are still good friends and respectful of each other’s parenting choices. She is AP in some ways but never preached it. The sleeping thing I believe was as much about her needs as her child’s, and that’s something I say from knowing her as a friend for a long time not as a generalization about AP parenting. Although I do think our needs play into our parenting decisions, AP or not. I like my personal space so I wasn’t keen on bed sharing or baby-wearing but I did want baby in the room with me to start for my reassurance. I thought I’d do baby lead weaning but I learned I had to be more traditional and gradual for my peace of mind over choking.

Bugsy

It’s great that she was able to adopt AP but respect your choices that differed from hers. I believe that extreme AP would be much more palatable if it were presented as “we do it simply because it works for us,” and not as the end-all “best” way to parent. But then again, it may appeal to some precisely because it does provide a scripted means for becoming a successful parent.

Allie

I wonder if an elite subset of our ancestors insisted they would only feed their precious LO’s wild grains when cultivation first began. Of course, I also wondre whether there was a body hair club for men when our ancestors first started losing their body hair : )

crazy grad mama

The smugness is what really gets to me about AP. If you’re not over-the-top about it, it can be fine as a parenting style, but it’s not the *only* reasonable parenting style, nor even the one that works best for every kid.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Hey, they aren’t being smug. And AP doesn’t make them better than everyone. It’s just that they by doing AP it means they are responding to the needs of their baby/child.

Because, you know, if you don’t do AP, you aren’t responding to the needs of your baby, and clearly you don’t care as much about your baby as the APer does.

guest

My son is an introvert. Leaving him sometimes IS responding to his needs!

Box of Salt

My older kid as an explorer baby, even as an infant. Didn’t want to be carried. I responded to those needs.

demodocus

Truly. I left my then 2 month old with a friend for 3 or 4 hours so his father and I could go see The Hobbit for my birthday. Nervous, sure, but we even managed to not call until the movie was over (the friend was also picking us up.)

Roadstergal

My bladder did not last through the first Hobbit movie.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Oh no, why, oh WHY did I go to that forum? It’s all I can do not to just slap some sense into some of the parents there.

It’s mothering.com, so, of course.

Sean Jungian

Should be called (s)mothering.com

The Bofa on the Sofa

That’s an old joke.

Many years ago, someone on a parenting forum asked, why can’t mothering.com be more inclusive, and be called parenting.com?

My answer was because SParenting.com just doesn’t have the right ring to it.

Roadstergal

Seriously, though. There is no forgiving this shit.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Of course not. The scary thing is, it’s not all that uncommon for that place. That’s the level of thought

And since quacks are such a tight-knit group, it’s worth noting that our antivaccine FAAP Jay Gordon was one of Eliza Jane’s pediatricians, and Bill Maher wrote the cover blurb for Christine’s book.

Roadstergal

Oh, and Christine was a homebirther, waterbirther, EBF, anti-vaccine.

Sean Jungian

Learning about Maggiore and HIV/AIDS denialism (something I was astounded to learn was a thing) is what first led me to Orac and Scienceblogs and through that eventually to here. Studying woo is endlessly fascinating to me, just when you think you’ve heard it all, something new comes along that just blows your mind.

Nick Sanders

Well, that was depressing.

Bugsy

SMH.

Roadstergal

I don’t want to go over there. Copypaste, someone?

pandapanda

I was out on a date night when my daughter was a week old. For three hours. AND I leave her with a male babysitter (who is an EMT with five nieces and nephews he has helped raise from birth). And we have done so 1-2 times a month since. Then we stayed overnight away from her when she was 3 months.

Call CPS on us right now!

The Bofa on the Sofa

Hey, I’m not one to judge how others parent. But we don’t leave our kids with babysitters because we love them, and we want to make sure that they understand that we love them, they can trust us, and won’t abandon them.

Roadstergal

I just think that if you love your kids, wanting to breastfeed is the natural outcome. #NotQuiteVerbatimAsItWasASpokenConversationButClose

Yeah, but why? Because the other guy was speechless, and that is goal…

pandapanda

I’ve mentioned this a few times before, but as long as she has Sophie the Giraffe, she’s happy as a clam, no matter who is watching her. So I guess I am such a horrible mother that she has replaced a rubber toy with me.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Again, I’m not one to judge others, but we don’t want our kids to get attached to some inanimate object because they are lacking loving attention from their parents. But whatever works for you is great, I’m sure.

Michelle Singleton

When my girls were 5 months old, Superman was getting ready to deploy for his last time AD. We were stationed at Ft Drum and he decided that we needed an adult get away. He made plans for us to go to NYC (leave Friday, come home Sunday). We had done everything we wanted by noon on Saturday so we went home.
The girls have been away from me several times in the last 9 years, but it’s hard for me. Especially after Superman’s death. I’m getting better, but I sure as hell don’t turn down offers unless it’s just super inconvenient for us.
There are people I flat out refuse to allow to have my kids. I don’t trust them or their motives.

demodocus

Sorry to hear about your superman.
There are lots of people i’m not trusting with my kids. *totally* separate issue. THere’s this one dude on my husband’s blind baseball team who is so terrified of gay men that he won’t use the bathroom at work if anyone else comes in. He just waits in a stall and hopes they don’t notice him. Frankly, he’s probably freaking the other dude out. He also brags about how he hits on all the women on the paratransit bus. Basically, he worries gay guys are going to treat him like he treats women. Sorry dude, but all the gay guys i know have better taste.
Yes, i’m disturbed that i know this much about that dude’s life and his office’s men’s room.

Michelle Singleton

I know that most who know me personally say I over-share. And I do. It’s a defense mechanism. My ex and his mother (there’s a picture of them in the encyclopedia of why AP is bad..) read my diary. They then called all the relatives and read it to them. It was used against me and twisted to convince the ex to divorce me. If I put it all out there, it can’t be used against me. My counselor told me it was a form of emotional rape and that’s why he diagnosed me with PTSD.
On a funnier note (now). Ex’s mother forced me to give back my rings. I pulled my best Audrey Hepburn. “There! And may you never have a day’s luck with them!” And I threw them at her. It was the most power I had had in the 18 months we were married…
On an even funnier note. My gay cat has more swagger than your DH’s teammate. This is one seriously fabulous cat. and he doesn’t have to try 😉

demodocus

lovely people. *snort*
the cat, though, is awesome

Michelle Singleton

See? Fabulous. And he likes to be pushed around in that doll stroller. His swagger is 10-fold when he has his lion cut.. 😉

I don’t fault the mom for feeling nervous about leaving her baby, I do get it. My kid is a teenager now but I still miss him when he’s gone to visit his dad or his grandmother (who only live a few miles from me) overnight or for a few days. And of COURSE you should only leave your child(ren) with someone you trust, not just some hobo off the street. But the thing is, when he’s out at his dad’s or grandma’s or otherwise away from me, me missing him is about ME and MY feelings, not about him, you know? But this A/P philosophy, it presents those natural parental feelings of reluctance to be away from our babies as being about what the baby needs rather than what they are really about which is what the parent needs. To me it rationalizes somewhat selfish behavior – rather than give your child different (safe) experiences of time with other people so she or he can learn that they will be fine even if Mama isn’t right there, it feeds into this “Only I, Warrior Mommy, can care for my child!” ego thing. I don’t know, I’m not putting it well. I just think its yet another example of some parents making it all about them rather than about what has to be done to raise a healthy, independent, happy adult person. I also wanted to say one thing about “crying it out”, I always adhered to the “5-minute rule” which was, when my son would fuss at bedtime, I’d make myself wait 5 minutes before rushing in to see what was wrong. And I would say there was only a handful of times that he actually went an entire 5 minutes (although it seems like longer to a doting mother) the vast majority of the time he just fell asleep after a few minutes.

Medwife

Classic. She thinks they did everything right. Well how about active management of the third stage? How about transferring for retained placenta before she was gushing blood? No.they did not do everything right.

Tiffany Aching

Oh ffs. Mean mean hospital people prodded and poked her and ran some evil evil tests. And incidentally saved her life, but hey, that’s not what’s important.

Are you nuts

If microcephaly were tdap related, you would expect it to be widespread throughout Brazil, and most prevalent in areas where women have access to prenatal care and actually receive the vaccine. My understanding is that the reported incidence of microcephaly has been quite concentrated, with one third of the cases coming from a single state: a state where many people don’t live in close proximity to medical care and where the environment is ideal for mosquitoes.

Also, a lot of articles are tying the outbreak to both tdap AND GMO mosquitoes. Certainly it couldn’t be both? Pick your conspiracy, people!

Roadstergal

It’s the vaccines, the GMOs, and the refined sugars, acting together. You can’t prove that it isn’t!

Are you nuts

I bet the right combination of thieves and peppermint EOs could fix it all!

Charybdis

No, no, no, not peppermint EO’s. Those are contraindicated for this. You need lavender, lemongrass and citrus EO’s. =P

Are you nuts

We all know the real cure is to squirt some breastmilk on it.

MaineJen

You guys. COCONUT OIL.

Liz Leyden

Cod liver oil!

DaisyGrrl

Don’t forget that it was all funded by the Rockefellers so they could make money from every Zika infection!

MaineJen

MONSANTO

Are you nuts

Those sneaky bastards have their hands in everything.

Charybdis

Don’t forget Bill Gates.

Squillo

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It was the Rothschilds. You need to get that anti-Semitism in there.

Big Pharma sells vaccines for profit. They also secretly vaccinate children behind their parents back for free for the Evuls. What do you mean that those two theories are incompatible….

And Big Pharma seeks to maximise their profits by spending billions bribing all the doctors and scientists in the world.

/s

Monkey Professor for a Head

Within two weeks of his six month vaccines, my mini monkey learned how to crawl and how to pull to stand. This is clearly vaccine related, and I’m now exhausted from having to constantly watch him. Curse you big Pharma!

Rachele Willoughby

My 5yo just recently got his kindergarten immunizations and now all he wants to do is play Minecraft. Not surprising since Minecraft is owned by Bill Gates!

Who?

You’re onto something I’m sure.

Nothing happens without a reason.

Monkey Professor for a Head

It’s the mind control nanobots. Robots are made of metal. Mercury is a metal. It’s all making sense now! You’d better giver him some colloidal silver, that’ll clear him right up!

Charybdis

But silver is a metal too, and the same color as mercury. How does that work?

My youngest got into computer programming within a week of his first HPV shot. It’s obviously a mind control device, and now I have to worry about the kid hacking into websites (he got caught hacking the source code for one of the games he likes to play.)

Sue

I’ve told this story before, but it’s always worth repeating.

When my daughter had her first vaccines, she could barely vocalise. After each vaccination, her verbal, cognitive and motor skills continued to improve.

Since having HPV vaccine, she has been exceling in Latin at high school.

The Computer Ate My Nym

Obviously it’s a plot by Latin Americans to make her speak their language and forget English.

Kelly

Seriously hoping we get the vaccination that makes little one not walk until she is much much older.

CSN0116

Saw this on Dr. T’s Facebook page and had to buy it. It will arrive in about a week, in pink. I’ll update with my model 😉

Monkey Professor for a Head

Love it!

Sean Jungian

I could swear I actually did see something like this argument, that Big Guv & Big Pharm basically modified mosquitoes to be vaccine-delivery agents. To keep us all sick, natch.

fiftyfifty1

The Government paid Monsanto to release a GMO mosquito that circumcises baby boys against the will of their parents.

Rachele Willoughby

And covertly formula feed them.

Rachele Willoughby

That would actually be super awesome. A low cost way to achieve a near-universal inoculation rate? Awesome. Plus no eggs and no “mercury”? Even better! Plus no more shots? Kids everywhere would rejoice.

Sue

SO, instead of “just a little mosquito bite” that is actually a needle, they could literally have a mozzie bite!

Liz Leyden

Mosquitoes are already very efficient at spreading malaria and Eastern Equine Encephalitis. Why not use them to spread something beneficial?

The Computer Ate My Nym

In the case of vaccines, the answer is because you can’t control who the mosquitoes bite and there are people who really shouldn’t, for one reason or another, be exposed to the vaccine. Also the whole issue of consent.

Rachele Willoughby

But we’re the bad guys, remember? We don’t have to worry about silly things like “collateral damage” and “consent”!

Here in Australia we have introduced pertussis vaccination for all pregnant women in their 3rd trimester in response to a baby who died of the disease last March. Thousands of women have received the vaccination.
There have been no cases of Zika virus.

demodocus

and very few of microcephaly, i’d imagine

Deborah

Lol yes that too.

Sue

Yep – especially since the brain is already developed by the third trimester.

demodocus

Kid #2 certainly has a good sized head already at 20 weeks

Nick Sanders

In one of my provax groups, someone reposted one particularly bright individual’s conclusion that the GM mosquitos had been engineered to deliver the vaccine.

Sean Jungian

I mentioned down below in this thread that I could swear I’d heard that very argument recently.

Rachele Willoughby

No way. I was just making up literally the most ridiculous conspiracy I could think of.

D’oh! I love a dry sense of humor, too! I just don’t always pick up on it online 🙁

Charybdis

Mental picture of a Holstein dairy cow in a John Deere hat and coveralls hooking up a winch to a disabled car (BeatriceC’s maybe?), putting it up on the wrecker and then asking “Where to, Ma’am?”.

You know, like something from The Far Side. Next to the Boneless Chicken Ranch.

namaste863

I feel like kicking the Hornets’ nest today, so I’m going to drop this below and peace out. For the record, I got this off of a pro vax group on FB. It is NOT me, or anyone connected with me. Enjoy.

“I can hardly type this out because thinking about it makes me so angry. Earlier this year my husband [31M] and I decided to spend Christmas with his family for the first time since my daughter was born last September. Since they live 12 hours away, we decided to stay for a few weeks before Christmas so they could spend loads of time with Annie [13 months].
We arrived early like we planned and everything was great. I’ve had a few disagreements with my mother-in-law Trish [56F] in the past over my parenting style (she criticised me for using disposable diapers, buying baby food from the supermarket and not raising Annie as an “organic” baby) but everything seemed great. After a day or two settling in my husband and I decided to pick up a few gifts from a mall around an hour away before the last-minute rush kicked in. My father-in-law [60M] tagged along. Trish said she was happy to take care of Annie.
We got back a few hours later and Annie was down for a nap on a blanket I didn’t recognise. Trish said one of her friends dropped by and gave it as an early Christmas gift. It looked pretty old/worn, but I figured one of her hippy friends was just recycling it.
The next two weeks were fine, aside from Trish making a point to prepare meals for Annie from scratch. I mentioned this to my husband and he said to just let her be. Annie mostly mushed the food Trish gave her with her hands/threw the bowls on the floor, as she’s been doing at the moment. Trish said it would “take her a while to get used to nutritious meals”.
I was getting sick of her meddling but it was only for a few weeks, so for the sake of the holidays I let it slide. The day after Christmas Annie was really unsettled and wouldn’t stop fidgeting and crying. I took her temperature and she had a fever, so I kept an eye on her for the next few days and it thankfully started to go down. This morning, she started to get a rash and blisters on her arms and legs and I freaked out. I was packing a bag to drive to see a doctor when Trish asked where I was going. I told her Annie had a rash and I was taking her to see a doctor.
She got a weird smug smile on her face and told me there was nothing to worry about. When I asked her what she was talking about she said without even looking at Annie that what she had was just Chickenpox. I asked her how she could possibly know that and she casually admitted one of her friend’s grandkids had chickenpox a few weeks ago so she asked them to wipe a blanket over the child’s arms, legs and face and bring it to her house. At this point I couldn’t believe what I was hearing so I asked if that blanket was the “gift” Annie was sleeping on. She said it was.
I lost my shit.
To be honest I don’t really remember what I said because I was up most of the night for two days checking on Annie. I just unleashed on Trish asking what the fuck was wrong with her.
My husband and father-in-law came to try to calm things down and Trish dug in her heels and said chickenpox was “the best and most natural thing” for Annie to build up her immunity. I already have a vaccination schedule in place with my paediatrician and she was booked in to get immunised for chickenpox at 18 months.
We drove to see the doctor and he confirmed she had it. He said I’ll have to cut Annie’s nails short and might have to tape socks on her hands while she sleeps because kids so young can scratch until they bleed and that will leave scars.
On the drive back my husband started making excuses for Trish, that she was only doing what she thought was best. I couldn’t believe he was defending her and we fought most of the way home until I told him to stop talking to me. Annie’s been scratching like crazy and I just had to tape socks over her hands. Trish tried to talk to me when we got back and I told her to get out of my sight.
We were meant to stay until Wednesday but I just finished packing up our stuff so we can leave first thing in the morning.
I’m so angry I can’t even think. Whenever I hear Trish moving around in the kitchen my heart starts beating faster and I feel like going out there and grabbing her by the hair. I don’t ever want to see her again or let my daughter see her again.
What can I say to make her and my husband realise the enormity of what she’s done? (I don’t think I can speak coherently to their faces until Annie gets better.)
tl;dr: Mother-in-law deliberately infected my daughter with chickenpox. I’m so angry I feel like physically harming her. I need advice on what to say to make her realise what she’s done.”

Rachele Willoughby

Wow. That’s… I’d burn her house down. And file for divorce.

An Actual Attorney

I want to do that for this poor woman, just after reading it. I would be sorely tempted to call one of the really bad guys I’ve represented over the years and call in a favor. I’d kick husband out. I’d strangle MIL myself.

KeeperOfTheBooks

Dad was a defense attorney. From what he described of his more…interesting…clientele, even most really bad guys (I do emphasize “most,” unfortunately) do not like kids being messed with. Hell, get the right guy and he might do it on principle, no favors needed.

BeatriceC

My work in the inner city gave me a glimpse into a certain amount of some criminal mindsets (many of my students’ parents and other relatives were convicted felons of various sorts; mostly drug related, but some more serious crimes). There’s an interesting moral code going on. One of the top things is, as you stated, “you don’t mess with kids”. I’d had to that, the younger the kid, the worse the offense. In other words, the more helpless the victim, the worse the crime, even among the worst of the criminals.

An Actual Attorney

Yes, there is honor among thieves. And murders. And carjackers. And drug dealers.

For the most part, messing with kids in any shape or form makes you a real unpopular guy on the cell block. Sexual abuse is (not surprisingly) the worst, especially because so many of the men in prison were abused themselves. But hurting a kid, and the small ones especially, not pretty.

And in case anyone has figured out who I am, I would not actually put a hit on someone. Just might think for a while.

BeatriceC

I think the moral code among the prison population would be an interesting dissertation topic for a sociology student.

I hope someone there is advising what I’m thinking. There has to be a law against intentionally spreading disease. Hit her with it, for fuck’s sake, and save that blanket.

Roadstergal

“P.S. You will Do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race.” – Lord Jeffrey Amherst, 1763. Nice to know that anti-vaxxers have learned their techniques from genocidal imperialists.

KeeperOfTheBooks

It’s rather sad that I was thinking exactly along those lines. Of course, the more rabid antivaxxers would probably think they’d be doing the population a favor. Anyone who doesn’t survive (never mind if that number hovers around 90%) just wasn’t fit enough/wasn’t meant to live/didn’t eat enough effing kale, and now the population’s stronger, yay!
The similarities to the eugenic movement are also decidedly striking.

Roadstergal

Yes, up to 90% mortality – it should be a lesson in how a virus can be unexpectedly worse when it moves to a new locale and a new population, and we’re back to Zika.

PeggySue

OMG. Could this be legal? I don’t blame you for being furious. I wish your husband would step up and support you. Hope Annie will recover smoothly. What a staggering lack of boundaries along with everything else wrong.

namaste863

PeggieSue, it isn’t me. I pulled it from a pro vax group on FB, and then Reddit.

swbarnes2

You endanger a child’s health on purpose, that’s it. Cut off. The bigger problem is that the father either won’t rock the boat for his child’s sake, or is a certified idiot for believing his mother’s rot.

Rachele Willoughby

“She was just doing what she thought was best.”

Yeah, INFECTING THEIR BABY WITH A DISFIGURING DISEASE.

How could Dad even defend something like that? Even to keep the peace?

demodocus

Yeah, i saw this replayed on one of the pro-vax pages. That grandmother makes my genuinely insane and mean grandmother look like gramma of the year.

BeatriceC

My children would never see that pathetic excuse for a human being again, and if my husband disagreed, I’d divorce him and ask for supervised visitation only due to his obvious inability to protect the child. Seriously, I have no patience for crap like that. What a horror the child’s mother is having to live through.

LaMont

As a millennial with a smartphone, I’m considering adopting a policy of whipping out my phone for anything over a certain level of “shocking.” Someone admitting they’ve deliberately harmed a child, that gets recorded if possible. When something is too insane to be believed without evidence, get that evidence. And then inform authorities.

Valerie

Here’s the update from reddit:

I didn’t think it would be possible – but things got worse.

I got up first thing the next morning and started packing our stuff into the car. Once I opened it up I kept the keys in my pocket since I was going in and out – usually we use Jack’s set and leave mine in my bag. While I was packing he sat in the kitchen with Trish and my father-in-law [60M] and chatted and had coffee like nothing was wrong.

Annie was mercifully still asleep so I’d just gently belted her in and closed her door when Jack came out and asked if I had everything. I said we were good to go as soon as he was.

He said ‘okay’ and calmly took out his key set and centrally locked the car, locking Annie in. I asked him what the hell he was doing and he said we wouldn’t be leaving until I apologised to Trish.

I think I was stunned into silence because he then took the chance to rehash what he said the previous day: that Trish thought she was doing what was best, that “chickenpox doesn’t kill you” and that I was “making a bigger deal out of this” than I needed to and making Trish feel bad. Yes, making her feel bad.

All the comments from my last post were swirling around in my head, and I told him he needs to stop being a son and start being a father. He screwed up his face and said he would always be Trish’s son, and that was the point – that nobody should speak to his mother the way I had the day before, and I needed to apologise to “clear the air”.

I felt like I had entered some kind of weird Twilight Zone where I had accidentally married a 9-year-old instead of an adult man, so I just asked him to open the car so we could leave. He repeatedly refused, then walked back inside and said he would see me in there when I was “acting more reasonable”.

You can probably guess what happened next. I’d left my bag on the passenger seat, so he probably assumed my keys were in there. Nope. I waited 30 seconds, then just hopped into the car and drove away.

My phone blew up with a million calls from him, Trish, and my father-in-law. Eventually my mom and dad and my sister Jess, who I’m super close with, called as well. I’d briefly texted Jess about what was happening the day before but she was stunned to get the full blow-by-blow. By the time I was on the open road I asked her to phone Jack and tell him he could walk home for all I care. Once she heard my side of the story, and not Jack’s (which was apparently that I had gone crazy, frightened Trish, ‘snatched’ Annie and ‘sped away’), she calmed way down.

Mom, dad and Jess offered to start driving and meet me half way so I could switch with one of them and wouldn’t have to drive the full twelve hours by myself in one day. I was so grateful to see them I pretty much broke down in a truck stop parking lot while I blubbered that I loved them.

They all took turns driving while I had a rest. It was super reassuring to talk it over and hear that Trish and Jack are the unreasonable ones. Once we got back I stayed at my parents’ overnight and they said I could stay as long as I needed.

The next few days were fairly tense. I was up most of the night making sure Annie didn’t scratch (which she did anyway, somehow) and it seemed like she just cried and cried and cried until she was exhausted. She has five scars on her face and a few others on her arms from scratching. I know appearances shouldn’t matter, but I’m so angry her skin is marked for life now over some stupid bullshit. This whole thing is just something I never expected to happen.

I answered one of Jack’s calls only to have him start a rant that he “didn’t recognise this person I had become”, so I hung up on him. He was due to come back for the start of the work year, which I wasn’t looking forward to, but I figured we could make it work as long as Trish was 12 hours away.

Then at like 11pm one night I got a very short and formal text from father-in-law via Jack’s phone, saying Trish had come down with shingles and was in the emergency room, that Jack was staying there to care for her, and that he would work from their house remotely once the year started back up.

Jack’s been there for the past few weeks tending to momma’s every whim – I’m sure she’s put on an Oscar-worthy performance of having one foot in the grave – and according to Google it should be any day now that her painful, crusty pustules go gently into that sweet night.

A few weeks ago I was honestly so tired and overwhelmed and in disbelief that I didn’t know what to do. Now I’m back at home with people who actually care about me I think I’m starting to realise how lucky I am to see the weird relationship with his mommy this early on. The fact that he cares more about Trish than his own daughter speaks volumes. When he eventually comes back I think we’ll have to have a serious talk about our future together.

Roadstergal

Wow, that is insane. And the gramma having such a miserable time with shingles being spun in anyone’s brain as anything other than ‘how much more horrible is this for a baby who doesn’t know what’s going on’ is serious denial.

She doesn’t need a serious talk. She needs a lawyer. Good on her family, though.

Rachele Willoughby

Idk, I read, “Trish had come down with shingles” as, “karma, bitches”.

PrimaryCareDoc

I’ll add to the fray and say that I don’t believe this story. It’s too perfect. And she jumped the shark when she gave grandma shingles. The implication seemed to be that Grandma Trish got shingles from the chicken pox, which we know is not possible.

Rachele Willoughby

Now you’ve ruined all our fun. I thought we’d talked about this.

Although, it’s still possible that MIL and co. lied about the shingles in a bid for sympathy.

Seriously, I will happily trade in righteous indignation for a kid not getting intentionally infected.

Deborah

Absolutely 🙂

Valerie

You are correct that reddit isn’t a trustworthy source and this story is unverifiable (unless it’s picked up by the news or whatnot), but I think it’s plausible for a narcissistic MIL and her son to behave this way. My mother has done things that people find hard to believe. I didn’t read the story as the MIL getting shingles from the kid’s chicken pox. Isn’t stress a risk factor for shingles outbreaks?

PrimaryCareDoc

I know it’s plausible, but I just don’t buy it. Sorry to be a killjoy. 🙁 It just ticks off too many boxes. Organic food. Supermarket hate. Healthy food smugness. Building up immunity naturally. I’ve read a lot of anti-vax fanfic. This reads like pro-vax fanfic.

I’m a pro-vax as they come, but I’m skeptical.

mostlyclueless

The particular subreddit that spawned this tale is inundated with people practicing their fiction writing/trolling.

PrimaryCareDoc

Ah. Mystery solved.

Valerie

Haha, fanfic. You are probably right. The sequence of events is suspect (shingles, especially), as is the writing style, which seems a bit too composed to be written the evening of the events. However, I 100% believe that there are people capable of preparing and carrying out plans to infect their grandkids with chickenpox against the mother’s wishes.

MaineJen

I agree, it’s all a bit too perfectly laid out to be entirely real. I suspect we’ve all seen a bit of anti-vax fanfic over the years (remember the girl who “turned autistic overnight” from the HPV vaccine?), so why not pro-vax?

I’m struggling to think of 14 vax you could give at once. For instance, in the US at least, single component MMR isn’t even manufactured anymore AFAIK. Even if you gave all the separate vaccines available and due for a 2 year old who’d never been vaccinated, I still only count 9 possible as the maximum, and that’s including a flu.

PrimaryCareDoc

There aren’t. She just went down the schedule and counted them. She forgot that the kid was too old for rotavirus and would need meningococcus.

Edited: I could SWEAR I’ve read this exact same story before multiple times, but I see the date was just today? Yes, the huge menacing doctor-men cornering her and her helpless offspring in the small room! Her brave stand against all odds! It was a real page-turner, that one *rolls eyes*

BeatriceC

From personal experience, I can verify that stories posted in one place often times find their way to other, similar sites. Several years ago I submitted a story to “Not Always Right”. Recently it has come to my attention that it’s been reposted on multiple sites like “hrtwarming”, “tickld”, and other click-bait type sites. The story I posted is one that I think other people could question, but I can verify it’s truthfulness with police reports and security footage if I ever need to.

MaineJen

I am very impressed by all the italics, bold and all caps in her story. This mom is convinced!!1!

Who?

MIL sounds just like my (former) yoga teacher, I have to say.

Though she is provax, and would not wrap a baby in a dirty blanket.

Are you nuts

I’m with you. It’s a little too bad to be true.

DelphiniumFalcon

I sincerely hope you’re right. I was just starting to have hope for our species again. I don’t need that fragile framework dashed. It does all sound a little too much.

And I’m about 99.9% my own grandmother is a narcissist and she wouldn’t go this Not in this way anyways. If she was nutty enough to do something like this I don’t think she would have ever admitted to the blanket being the infection vector to anyone else besides thr mom. Gaslighting tends to be a favorite tactic of theirs and the crazier she can make the mom look by denying she did any such thing the better for her. I could see her faking having shingles though to make herself look like the victim. My grandmother used to claim she had TIAs whenever my Mom started to poke holes in her lies.

…and I’ve disturbed myself a bit with diving into her potential thought processes so I’ll bbl.

Edit: damn you autocorrect

demodocus

My husband’s grandmother used to tell everybody about her poor blind grandson, and his repeated bouts of cancer…. Well, he’s blind and her grandson, but he’s never had cancer.
ETA: a superstitious knock on wood

Sean Jungian

There is anti-vax fanfic? Now I’ve heard EVERYTHING.

PrimaryCareDoc

No, it’s not really fanfic. It’s just my term for these outrageous stories that anti-vaxxers tell. They’re like poorly-written fanfic.

Sean Jungian

lol I did think at first that that is what you meant – those weird wish-fulfillment “true story!” anecdotes that they love. But then I considered, this IS the internet…

Who?

I don’t doubt some rough edges may have been smoothed, but the overall story doesn’t surprise me.

Allowing for how angry, tired and frustrated mum would be, everything Trish had done would, in retrospect, seem really annoying. And mum has a touch of the ocds herself, with the (M27) and the photographic memory. She was already feeling a little martyred (‘I had to watch my mil feed my baby home made food, the horror’).

If someone gave a baby in my care a dirty old blanket to lie on when there were clean items to choose and a functioning washing machine, that would be it for me. My reaction was why not bail out at that point.

The bones of the story may well be true though.

Sue

I think you’re right – I;ve come across the story before.

BeatriceC

I do agree that the story is too neat and that Grandma getting shingles just seals the deal of unbelievable to me. That said, I can easily believe that something like it actually did happen and the story has been embellished. I am the child of narcissistic parents. There is a reason I packed up my three kids and my mastiff into a Honda Civic with only what I could put in the car and disappeared in the middle of the night, telling absolutely nobody where I was going, then proceeded to drive clear across to the other side of the country (I did make a short, month long stop halfway through to lay a false trail). MrC had a difficult time believing some of my stories of my parents until friends who were around when they happened verified them for him. What sealed the deal for him, in believing me without question, was when a dear friend of mine called me to report that my parents drove three hours to harass him at his place of employment, bullying their way into the establishment before they opened and made threats to his boss in order to coerce him into talking to them. PD’s are a crazy lot. I honestly have no difficulty believing that the “bones” of this story are true, even if I think that there are parts that have been embellished.

demodocus

THat’s kind of where i am with this. Fortunately, I don’t know anyone *that* bad, but it’s not hard to extrapolate from the levels i am familiar with.
Thank God that although crazy does run in the family, *that* level of crazy doesn’t. That and i’m not genetically related to either the elder grandmother or stepfather #1.

Bugsy

I tend to agree with you. There are quite a few narcissists in my husband’s family, and I could see them doing something similar. Thankfully no one’s intentionally gotten our son sick, but that’s probably only because we’re already cut out for other parenting decisions we’ve made. When there’s a narcissist in the family, it really does become all about that person.

Liz Leyden

Agreed. If Grandma has shingles, it’s more likely that Baby got chicken pox from her.

Sue

I’ve seen this story before, on the net womewhere.

Could it be an urban myth?

The Computer Ate My Nym

I share various people’s doubts about the reality of this story or at least all the details of same, but if it’s true, I have to say that if something like this happened to me, I’d be tempted to not leave enough pieces of my husband or MIL to be worth burying. But I wouldn’t do that. What I would do is leave and do my best to ensure that none of them ever saw me or the baby again in their lives. Certainly not MIL who has no legal right to the kid. When your husband is locking your kid in the car and refusing to let you in or her out until you apologize to MIL*, it is way past time to DTMFA.

*No matter what you did to MIL or vice versa.

Marie

These people just piss me off. My son is 3 month old and current on the vaccines he is old enough to have. I live in the PNW, also very woo-filled. I don’t want these diseases around my child. Assholes.

Charybdis

To save some time, here’s a quick summary,

1. It is TDaP, not DTaP.
2. Vaccines are NOT injected into the bloodstream.
3. TDaP has been given to pregnant women for years, decades even, in numerous countries. It has not been associated with an uptick in microcephaly, anywhere, ever.
4. The Zika virus is new to Brazil, so there is no individual or herd immunity to the virus, so it spreads quickly.
5. Zika is related to Dengue Fever, Yellow Fever, and West Nile Virus
and Dengue has been associated with microcephaly.
6. The GMO mosquitoes are males, who do not bite. Females, who do bite, are the disease vectors. They mate once and the offspring of a female and GMO male are non-viable. This helps reduce the mosquito population.
7. The microcephaly birth defect happens in the first trimester, when the CNS is forming. Vaccination with TDaP in the third trimester cannot cause retroactive birth defects.
8. It is TDaP, not DTaP.

Edit: if you are adding to the list, I apologize. I’m having a rather crappy day and thought I had mislinked something.

Roadstergal

Oh, no, it’s just one more thing we need to remind the paracheuters. 🙂

Megan

Nice summary. I’m sure they’ll ignore it. If we’re being nitpicky, it’s actually Tdap (not TDaP) to reflect the smaller portions of diphtheria and acellular pertussis. Honestly though, I’d just be happy if they can get the correct vaccine, whether it’s correctly capitalized or not.

Rachele Willoughby

Polio was not a conspiracy.

Suzi Screendoor

Huh. I always thought the a stood for “and”. Learn something new every day.

Roadstergal

Ya, the whole-cell was designated DTwP or DTP. The acellular has a better side effect profile (at the cost of needing boosters).

Rachele Willoughby

Polio was not a conspiracy.

Charybdis

Did one of the links say it was? I know Polio wasn’t a conspiracy, but I do admit that I was rushed while posting links….

Poogles

I could be wrong, but I think Rachele was attempting to add to your list, not refute anything on it.

Charybdis

Ahhh….I see. I’m having a bad-news sort of day, so I was thinking I goofed something up.

My apologies.

Rachele Willoughby

There was someone on the other thread going on about how zika was a government conspiracy just like polio.

Rachele Willoughby

I always think I’m immune to ignorance and that I’ve heard it all until someone pops up with a gem like “a government conspiracy just like polio” and I have to stop and reevaluate my opinion of the human race.

Roadstergal

Yes, the government that couldn’t even keep a break-in or a blow job secret is keeping the lid on Zika, polio, AIDS, 9/11, Paris…

Mariana

This is the best comment ever. Lol. I’ll use with all my conspiracy theory friends

demodocus

Who shall copy and paste this for the hordes who shall shortly descend upon us?

Rachele Willoughby

It sounds like more fun than studying for midterms.

Nick Sanders

I’m amazed they aren’t already here. Hell, I’m amazed the last crop didn’t just start spamming another post when the old one got locked.

BeatriceC

It took a day or two for the first Zika post to get invaded if I recall correctly. There were a few anti-vax comments at first, but it didn’t really blow up until Saturday, I think.

namaste863

OT, but did disqus ever get the other Zika post back up?

Roadstergal

I think it’s permanently gone, along with the lactivist-satire erection consultant post. We lost some damn funny comments from before what’s-his-name parachuted in.

My disgust and frustration with these anti-vaxx morons knows no bounds. I live in Northern California when not in Los Angeles for grad school, pretty much the ground zero of woo. We are one of the hardest hit areas for Whooping cough, and my two nephews are under 8 months. I’m scared to death.

Rachele Willoughby

Ugh. That really sucks. All you can really do is get yourself vaccinated and remind everyone around them to get vaccinated.

namaste863

Way ahead of you. I travel a lot so I am vaccinated against everything under the sun. Including typhoid and yellow fever.

Rachele Willoughby

Hell yeah.I got vaccinated while pregnant with my youngest daughter (as did my husband) but it was like going to war to convince my mom (who was supposed to watch the kids while I attended school) to get the jab.

namaste863

I wonder what it will take to convince these people that they are putting others at risk with their stupidity?

Inmara

I’m afraid that nothing. Want proof? Look again at the story about crazy naturopath mom who almost let her 3 kids die of whooping cough.

namaste863

Oh, that one was a gem. And she was so nauseatingly smug about it. I also read a post by a woman whose MIL went behind her back and deliberately infected her 13 month old baby with chicken pox. The moderator of the thread actually posted a disclaimer that inciting violence against said MIL would not be tolerated. Never seen that one before.

An Actual Attorney

If either of my MILs did that (FIL remarried, so I have 2), she’d be banned from my house, banned from ever seeing the baby, reported to someone, and possibly be dead. And I love and adore both MILs.

BeatriceC

I’m really glad that wasn’t a battle I had to fight, because I don’t know if I could have fought it back then. These days, however, it would be very simple: no jab, no kid, no exceptions (well, except a real medical contraindication).

Roadstergal

Not let friends and relatives visit if they’re not vaccinated. Check on the vaccination status of local schools (at least the new bill is helping with that…). Ugh, it’s a horrible situation.

namaste863

Yeah, I’m not the mom, I’m just the aunt, so there’s not a hell of a lot I can do except make sure I’m UTD and pray to whoever will listen that those of my relatives who have swallowed the woo hook, line, and sinker have the good sense to do the same.

Liz Leyden

My state has quite a it of woo. There have been pertussis epidemics every winter for the last few years.

Two years, when I was pregnant, I had a client who was in adult foster care. Foster Mom’s teenage daughter caught pertussis at school. We had to tell the client’s family, the other foster adult’s family, both of their day programs, and my employer, which had to tell my other clients and the other 2 nurses’ clients I had to get my tDap early because of it. Fun times.

BeatriceC

Southern California is bad enough (I’m in San Diego). I really feel for you guys who live up north.

Charybdis

Round #2 in 3………2………1….. GO!

Amy Tuteur, MD

OT: Does anyone have access to Project Muse? I need access to 2 papers and there appears to be no way to order them online.

CSN0116

Messing around on my work computer, it looks like maybe? What is one of the papers? I’ll see if I can actually go through and retrieve it.

Madtowngirl

Cue parachuters in 3….2….1.

Roadstergal

Should I say something about circumcision just to get the full invasion?

Gatita

nooooooo

Rachele Willoughby

You’re gonna break the internet again.

DelphiniumFalcon

Can this Bill Nye video on chemical reactions be required viewing for all parachuters? Should explain things in a nice, exciting way on why chemikillz aren’t scary.

Omg, I don’t know if I can do this again. I laughed so hard last time that I think I gave myself a hernia.

DelphiniumFalcon

The parachuters must be gathering. It’s gonna look like France on D-Day in a few hours.

PrimaryCareDoc

LOL. My favorite part is when they come on and accuse us of being trolls.

Rachele Willoughby

The multiple personalities give me a headache after a while.

Nick Sanders

I’ll take some ibuprofen.

Rachele Willoughby

I laughed way too hard at that. For like an entire minute straight.

Angharad

My favorite part is when they think multiple people who comment regularly are the person.

BeatriceC

There are parts of that I’m still laughing about.

Angharad

Do you think they’re projecting? Like there’s actually only one or two antivaxxers but they want to look like an army so they assume everyone else has multiple accounts too?

momofone

I’ve wondered that too.

namaste863

I’m gonna get a big bowl of popcorn and a glass of wine, sit back, and enjoy the show.

Megan

No wine here. I’ll settle for ice cream. Not sure if I have the patience to participate in round two. I’d like to try to maintain some faith in humanity.

KeeperOfTheBooks

Damnit, you would say “ice cream.”
How’s your pregnancy going? I seem to remember you’re a couple of months ahead of me and due in a few months, but my memory can be a tad fuzzy right now.
Especially when distracted by thoughts of ice cream. I’m thinking DD and I might have a date with the froyo place before going grocery shopping this afternoon. Mmmmm.

Megan

I will probably have ice cream as my dinner after DD goes to bed tonight. Isn’t that terrible?? 32 weeks today. Baby is very active. Due 3/31 if I make it that long, which probably won’t happen.

Blood pressures creeping up but not as high as last pregnancy so far and haven’t required meds yet (knock on wood). Had oligo from the high blood pressure with my last pregnancy so in a few weeks I’m sure we’ll get an ultrasound to see how fluid levels and growth are doing. Still haven’t decided whether to do a TOL or just get a repeat section but I’ll only do TOL if I’m a good candidate and baby isn’t big. Can’t be induced because this pregnancy is too close to my last so if something comes up that baby needs delivered and I’m not in labor on my own, I’ll have a repeat section.

Anyway, truthfully this pregnancy has overall been much easier than my last but I am having a lot more aches and pains.

How about you?

demodocus

i’m 21 weeks tomorrow; my pcp wants me to have an echocardiogram in a few weeks. The possibilities there make me a might nervous

Megan

Am I correct in remembering you say it was for shortness of breath? Or are they doing the echo for some other reason?

demodocus

Dr. A was concerned when I told him my dad just died of heart failure. I did go in for shortness of breath under stupidly low levels of exercize. The more rational part of my mind thinks he might just want to be thorough, but then I’m not entirely rational at the moment.

Megan

Sounds like maybe just being thorough. Better safe than sorry though! So sorry to hear about your Dad.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Due 3/31 if I make it that long, which probably won’t happen.

You should be so lucky. Among the people born on 3/31 include Gabe Kaplan from Welcome Back, Kotter, former North Carolina basketball player JR Reid, Sue and Sal, the identical twins in my class in high school, my brother, and last, but not least, The Bofa on the Sofa.

Megan

It’s actually my best friend’s daughter’s birthday too! And the birthday of my best friend growing up. It’s a popular day!

BeatriceC

I don’t even have the excuse of being pregnant but I’m eating the cheapest hotdogs ever made slathered with sweet relish because that is what I’m craving. I made a real dinner for everybody else.

The Bofa on the Sofa

Frank Caliendo doing a Jeff Goldblum impression:

I like hot dogs, you know. They’re very, very good. I like hot dogs.
Mustard, ketchup, relish, all kinds of things. Chili dogs are good.
Cheesy dogs are even better. Wait a second. I’m a vegetarian.

KeeperOfTheBooks

Not in the least terrible! As it happens, if I weren’t already in my PJs and therefore lethargic, I’d be sorely tempted to go get some soft serve right this minute. Mmmmm. Preferably with M&Ms.
I like your flexible attitude! It seems to my admittedly inexperienced self that going into having the kiddo with that perspective is most likely to result in a happy mom and, by extension, happy baby. As it happens, I had polyhydramnios (sp? Too lazy to look it up.) last time around, which was tiresome and made DD not a candidate for an ECV.
For me right now, my plan is VBAC unless there’s a good reason not to, but I trust my (very VBAC-friendly) doc entirely, so if he says CS, CS it is.
I’m pretty good–keeping the weight gain well within guidelines (all of 5 pounds up at my 20 week appointment!) courtesy of my Fitbit, which I think is also helping avoid the achiness I had last go-round. A bit more tired than last time, but I ascribe that more to the toddler than anything else. 😉
I’m going to be stepping off social media for Lent, so in case you have baby sooner than Easter, congrats and good luck to you! Once I’m back on, I shall scan the comments section avidly for baby news. 🙂

Monkey Professor for a Head

I had ice cream for lunch. But in my defence, it’s homemade (black sesame and orange) and has no preservatives so I need to eat it all within the next 2 weeks.

KeeperOfTheBooks

*nods seriously* I mean, it’s irresponsible to waste food! By eating it, you’re being a good citizen of the planet!

Megan

Just now saw your post. Thanks for the well wishes. I think my course totally depends on my blood pressure. I’m just along for the ride and the baby at the end. 🙂 I’m pretty certain little lady will arrive before Easter. I will be sure to post when it happens!

Megan

And by the way, I think soft serve with M&M’s is a perfectly acceptable dinner for a pregnant lady. Glad your pregnancy is going well!

Rachel

I’m relatively new here, what are “parachuters”?

Amy M

People who “drop in” to tell the regulars how wrong they are. Since they have no science to back up their woo, they often resort to personal attacks, and most refuse to listen to reason. I think a few current regulars were once parachuters? Should we count Brooke as a parachuter or a regular? A regular parachuter? She likes to leave a comment on the NCB themed posts, to let us know she doesn’t agree, and then she disappears until the next one.

Among the many reasons to love BHC is that Jonathan Banks was the second-in-command baddie. #fan

Rachele Willoughby

Also they can almost never punctuate. Or spell. Or, in really severe cases, express a coherent thought via text.

Nick Sanders

I parachuted in to argue with some other parachuters, and I’ve just never left. :p

Amy Tuteur, MD

Dr. Amy Tuteur is an obstetrician gynecologist. She received her undergraduate degree from Harvard College in 1979 and her medical degree from Boston University School of Medicine in 1984. Dr. Tuteur is a former clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School. She left the practice of medicine to raise her four children. Her book, Push Back: Guilt in the Age of Natural Parenting (HarperCollins) was published in 2016. She can be reached at DrAmy5 at aol dot com...
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