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Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Phoenix is punching above their weight. Right now, they're not even in the playoffs.

1) Punching above your weight is supposed to be a GOOD thing, meaning you are playing well enough to win games your talent says you shouldn't.

2) Someone must be doing something to win those games

So what you guys are doing is complementing Green more, not less. You are saying Green has played so well that he's carried a team that has no business being in the playoffs or being over .500 into both spots (potentially, West is tough). Please, stop beating him up like that. smh

I love when people just abandon not only the numbers but even the BS sayings. "Oh, okay they are a good team....but they shouldn't be so they still count as a bad team which proves he's not a good player cause he's got a bad team looking like a good team"

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

He is flourishing, and I agree it's due to the system, but I also think it has to do with their coaching and low expectations. Swap out Jeff Hornacek with half the coaches in the league and they are likely a lottery team. Hornacek is doing a brilliant job coaching to that team's strengths, and the team is playing with house money, everyone was certain they would stink this year.

Um, so this is saying that Green has made Hornacek look like he's much better than Vogel. So doesn't that make PD idiots for thinking Vogel is a good coach?

I mean either Green's success is on him or his failure in Indy is on Vogel for not being as capable of coaching to strengths as Hornacek. I just want people to pick a side and stay on it once the debates get going.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Um, so this is saying that Green has made Hornacek look like he's much better than Vogel. So doesn't that make PD idiots for thinking Vogel is a good coach?

I mean either Green's success is on him or his failure in Indy is on Vogel for not being as capable of coaching to strengths as Hornacek. I just want people to pick a side and stay on it once the debates get going.

I'll get kicked off PD for saying but I don't think Vogel is that great of a coach. There are rarely adjustments to his game, he is almost as stubborn as dare I say JOB.
Vogel needs a great offensive minded coach next to him that he trust. JMO

I'm not perfect and neither are you.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the esteem of Elohim,
Ephisians 4: 32 And be kind towards one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as Elohim also forgave you in Messiah.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Gerald Green is having a great year and I enjoy watching him play but unless you give him the green light (no pun intended) do whatever he wants to out on the floor, he's a useless player. He doesn't know how to operate in a controlled offense because he has no feel for the game. What I mean by that is he doesn't know how to operate the pick and roll, move without the ball to get open, find the open man if he's double-teamed or trapped, or make a basic entry pass to a post player. He's what I call a 50/50 player because half of the time he's amazing and the other half he makes terrible decisions.

With all that said, he's the perfect pick-up-game player. If you just tell him to go out there and get buckets, he'll do that. He's a good shooter off the dribble and with the Pacers he was used more as a catch-and-shoot player. The only time he was allowed to play his freewheeling game when he was with the Pacers was the 2 games against Cleveland and the last regular season game against Philly where he scored 32 points. If you're willing to live with the bad defense, bad shots early in the shotclock, and bad passes, he'll have a lot of games where he puts up points in great numbers. Vogel wasn't willing to do that last year but maybe he should've given GG a little more leeway considering how bad the bench offense was last year. Either way, that doesn't change the fact that GG is the ultimate example of a player that only plays well in an uptempo offensive system.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

I'll get kicked off PD for saying but I don't think Vogel is that great of a coach. There are rarely adjustments to his game, he is almost as stubborn as dare I say JOB.
Vogel needs a great offensive minded coach next to him that he trust. JMO

I have been critical of this to a point lately. I was really hoping the turnover problem would be improved coming into this season, and when it wasn't, that's when I became skeptical. I may have been most impressed with him Saturday night in Detroit, but they players deserve quite a bit of credit for that too. I guess will see what he's made of in May.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Um, so this is saying that Green has made Hornacek look like he's much better than Vogel. So doesn't that make PD idiots for thinking Vogel is a good coach?

I mean either Green's success is on him or his failure in Indy is on Vogel for not being as capable of coaching to strengths as Hornacek. I just want people to pick a side and stay on it once the debates get going.

Middle ground perhaps? Does it have to be black or white? Vogel might be partially blamed but unless you think he should have built the offense around Green's strengths, I don't see how you can put the blame entirely on Vogel. I understand the ongoing frustration with our offense and Vogel definitely plays a part in that but Green seems to flourish in specific situations. I am happy for him but let's admit that he was clueless in our offense, his decision making was very bad and we were never going to build our offense around a then fringe starter/bench player being paid 3mil. He was supposed to help, not be the focal point you build around on offense. Unfortunately, it did not work out, it happens. If anything, I'd blame the TPTB for signing him, not that I will though. It was a gamble that did not work. The talent was there (undeniable now), the fit wasn't. Every time he scores a lot, I immediately remember his defensive rotations. Has everyone forgot that he was by far our worst defender (ok, second worst with Augustin )? Not hitting shots is not necessarily a reason with Vogel to send someone to the bench; failing to stay in front of your man and missing every second rotation are. I mean people blame Scola for his bad defense and rightfully so to an extent, but Green just happened to be worse somehow. He found the perfect environment to flourish in, good for him but let's not act like the blame falls entirely on Vogel. Or Green for that matter. Share that between all the parties and that's a little closer to the truth.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Um, so this is saying that Green has made Hornacek look like he's much better than Vogel. So doesn't that make PD idiots for thinking Vogel is a good coach?

I mean either Green's success is on him or his failure in Indy is on Vogel for not being as capable of coaching to strengths as Hornacek. I just want people to pick a side and stay on it once the debates get going.

Green has incredible talent, but it became abundantly clear in his time here, that he was also a really, really stupid basketball player, and he made some really, really stupid basketball plays. Vogel is probably way too lax of a coach for a guy like that. I don't think Vogel was willing or able to rein him in, so it made sense to move on.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

Green has incredible talent, but it became abundantly clear in his time here, that he was also a really, really stupid basketball player, and he made some really, really stupid basketball plays. Vogel is probably way too lax of a coach for a guy like that. I don't think Vogel was willing or able to rein him in, so it made sense to move on.

This is probably the easiest way to boil it down when it comes to Green and his time with the Pacers.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

This is probably the easiest way to boil it down when it comes to Green and his time with the Pacers.

I agree and I also wonder the same thing when it comes to Lance. I'm not saying Lance the same player as Green but I see a need for direction that he doesn't seem to get from Vogel when he gets out of control. The stupid behind the back pass against Detroit is just one of hundreds of examples. Lance has evolved under Vogel but I think he'd do better under a coach that knows when to real him in. He should have been given a seat immediately after that pass, talked to and then allowed back out only after he'd agree to play the way the coach wanted him to.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

I agree and I also wonder the same thing when it comes to Lance. I'm not saying Lance the same player as Green but I see a need for direction that he doesn't seem to get from Vogel when he gets out of control. The stupid behind the back pass against Detroit is just one of hundreds of examples. Lance has evolved under Vogel but I think he'd do better under a coach that knows when to real him in. He should have been given a seat immediately after that pass, talked to and then allowed back out only after he'd agree to play the way the coach wanted him to.

It sort of goes both ways with Lance though. Lance's out-of-control, incredibly erratic play style, is also a major part of what makes him so effective. That wasn't the case with Green.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

I agree and I also wonder the same thing when it comes to Lance. I'm not saying Lance the same player as Green but I see a need for direction that he doesn't seem to get from Vogel when he gets out of control. The stupid behind the back pass against Detroit is just one of hundreds of examples. Lance has evolved under Vogel but I think he'd do better under a coach that knows when to real him in. He should have been given a seat immediately after that pass, talked to and then allowed back out only after he'd agree to play the way the coach wanted him to.

Unfortunately Lance may be one of those guys that you HAVE to let make a bone headed play every now and then. I think Frank is afraid he'll completely lose Lance if he comes down on him too hard. What makes it unfortunate is that you have a player on the bench who can produce when Lance has his one of many "wtf are you thinking" plays.

I do agree though, there needs to be some type of accountability when it comes to these types of plays. If not, they will just continue (as we have seen)

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

I thought about this, and decided that I'm not to worried about it. Plumlee we made fun of, but also thought he could develop, and good for him. Green and Augustin were awful here. It's nice to see Green doing better, and to be honest, his main problem here was he couldn't hit wide open threes. It was amazing how many he missed, but for some reason he's shooting them much better in Phoenix, other than that his stats are about the same across the board. DJ... First off, Thibido (no idea how to spell his name) is IMO the best coach in the game right now. He is getting more out of DJ than should be gotten. However, I think he'll be a huge weakness for them in the playoffs when teams start to focus on exposing his D game after game. Still, I like seeing ex-Pacers do well, so here's wishing they do a good job and we win a title!

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

44% shooting is weighed down by the increased 3PA. His eFG% (adjusted for the bonus point of a 3PM) is .524. His assists p36 are at 5.0 this season. Of the Pacers regulars there are TWO guys with a better eFG% - Lance at .541 and Hill at .532. ONLY LANCE can match McBob's assists p36 at 5.0 himself. So what I'm saying is Josh is putting up Lance numbers for Charlotte. It's coming from the PF spot which makes it odd and perhaps not a good fit everywhere, but it's smart change for him considering how good his handles are.

Lance is outrebounding Josh, though we also know some of Lance's boards are "stolen" or system based (West or Roy block out to let guard get ball clean). But Josh is also playing more perimeter so that's a negative by-product. Josh has MORE steals p36 than Lance, obviously more blocks (.7 to .1) but also less than HALF THE TURNOVERS. Josh is getting the same amount of assists for only 1.2 TOs vs 2.7. Josh is shooting the three BETTER THAN LANCE (36% to 34%).

Lance is shooting the 2 better and is taking more 2PA vs 3PA than Josh (Lance 8 to 3, Josh 4 to 4). Neither draw many FTAs but Josh is shooting FT a fraction better (ie, equally non-important).

Josh is 26, Lance is 23. Lance is playing 35 mpg, Josh is playing 30 mpg.

Frankly I'm glad Josh was thrown under the bus because I was undervaluing his impact this year, those are some darn good, if non-traditional numbers.

Lance and Josh make for an interesting statistical comparison. Their production levels are remarkably similar. With Josh likely opting out after this season, they'll also both be in line for new contracts this summer.

Re: Ex-Pacers Making Us All Look Like Idiots

. . . I do agree though, there needs to be some type of accountability when it comes to these types of plays. If not, they will just continue (as we have seen)

I disagree. Although there have been some bad Lance moments, they are fewer and farther between. Vogel is holding him accountable, but not embarrassing him by yanking him when he messes up. It appears that issues are being addressed in private instead of during the game in public. Lance has toned his game down, made an effort not to force things. Think of the times he gets the rebound and drives down court and pulls up now, when he would have driven head long to the basket early in the season. There is still room for improvement, but improvement is being made.