I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

Well the thing that gets me is twofold. First as a Bishop or Archbishop or any hierarch, in the Orthodox Church Homosexuality is a sin. So if a bishop is "sinning" people should know. If a bishop is sleeping with a woman, his flock should know. If a bishop is stealing money from the church, people should know. Second, if the bishop is using church funds for a male or female lover, that should be brought to attention. However, I am scared to bring this out in the open hence why I bring it up here to get an idea what to do. Another way of looking at it is not speaking the truth is lying and I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".

Well the thing that gets me is twofold. First as a Bishop or Archbishop or any hierarch, in the Orthodox Church Homosexuality is a sin. So if a bishop is "sinning" people should know. If a bishop is sleeping with a woman, his flock should know. If a bishop is stealing money from the church, people should know. Second, if the bishop is using church funds for a male or female lover, that should be brought to attention. However, I am scared to bring this out in the open hence why I bring it up here to get an idea what to do. Another way of looking at it is not speaking the truth is lying and I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be. Obviously there needs to be more to accuse the hierarch with than just a "lisp".

Being homosexual is the exact same as being straight or bi is, the urges that we have are the same, and those are not sins, but temptations. The sin comes in when we act upon those desires, and have premarital sex. Yes, marriage between people of the same sex does not exist, and as such, sex between them is always premarital sex. However, the sin is the same no matter the sex of the people involved.

Fr. Seraphim Rose, of blessed memory, had homosexual desires, and yet lived his life as a monastic, and greatly contributed to the Church and the Faith.

My point? your concerns are thing that you should not be concerned about, especially if it is not your Bishop.

Being homosexual is the exact same as being straight or bi is, the urges that we have are the same, and those are not sins, but temptations. The sin comes in when we act upon those desires, and have premarital sex. Yes, marriage between people of the same sex does not exist, and as such, sex between them is always premarital sex. However, the sin is the same no matter the sex of the people involved.

Fr. Seraphim Rose, of blessed memory, had homosexual desires, and yet lived his life as a monastic, and greatly contributed to the Church and the Faith.

My point? your concerns are thing that you should not be concerned about, especially if it is not your Bishop.

Thank you, my sentiments exactly. I have heard of similar situations within Orthodox bishopric and abstainant homosexual bishops. If I were to discover one of my bishops was homosexual I would consider it honestly none of my business unless (a) they were actively engaging in homosexual activities, after all ALL sex is forbidden to the bishops or (b) they were allowing parishioners to express homosexuality in manners contrary to Orthodox or (c) they were blatant and ugly homophobes and so I felt they were all the worse hypocrites.

Even if one of these three criteria matched, I would still have to tip my hat and reflect in prayer, we're talking about our revered fathers the Bishops!

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:10:39 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.

While a lisp would not in and of itself be "evidence" of a person's homosexuality, there is undeniably a "gay accent" that has its own phonological features. This is backed up by impartial linguistic research as being an adopted feature, in the sense that it can be and is turned "up" or "down", depending on the social context of the utterance (see Podesva 2011 for one such study).

As for Amharic, it is spoken much further "forward" in the mouth than English usually is, making it sound more lispy than English (and, by contrast, English sounds funny to Amharas, like we're speaking with our tongues stuck in our throats). Spanish, particularly Peninsular (European) Spanish, has the same phenomenon going on. It's kind of hard for a Spanish guy to sound tough with all that "essss"-ing and "ossss"-ing, and certain other Spanish-speaking people (e.g., Argentinians) are mocked by others for having that feature that makes them sound like "wannabe Europeans".

Hmmm...why not forget about your suspicions and any rumors you've heard and study some sociophonetics? That ought to calm you, somewhat. For the rest, just pray.

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.

No one has a problem necessarily with your opinions about the incompatability of Orthodox and homosexuality, but again, Orthodox is not a vault to reinforce prejudice. To say person is of a particular sexual orientation based solely on their patterns of speech is laughable at best, and dangerous at its worst.

stay blessed,habte selassie

Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Well I will continue to keep my mouth shut, like I said I was just deeply troubled and I prefer to get things out in the open rather than whispers behind the scenes. However being the fact that it seems that homosexuality is becoming more accepted in the Orthodox church, perhaps it is not that big a deal.

I agree with you 100%. It is much better for things to be out in the open than to be whispered about behind the scenes. Here's how I deal with this. I don't whisper about things behind the scenes and I find that the truth usually finds its own way into the open without me needing to bring it there. Problem solved.

While a lisp would not in and of itself be "evidence" of a person's homosexuality, there is undeniably a "gay accent" that has its own phonological features. This is backed up by impartial linguistic research as being an adopted feature, in the sense that it can be and is turned "up" or "down", depending on the social context of the utterance (see Podesva 2011 for one such study).

As for Amharic, it is spoken much further "forward" in the mouth than English usually is, making it sound more lispy than English (and, by contrast, English sounds funny to Amharas, like we're speaking with our tongues stuck in our throats). Spanish, particularly Peninsular (European) Spanish, has the same phenomenon going on. It's kind of hard for a Spanish guy to sound tough with all that "essss"-ing and "ossss"-ing, and certain other Spanish-speaking people (e.g., Argentinians) are mocked by others for having that feature that makes them sound like "wannabe Europeans".

Hmmm...why not forget about your suspicions and any rumors you've heard and study some sociophonetics? That ought to calm you, somewhat. For the rest, just pray.

When learning Amharic I had to unlearn all the speech therapy I had in elementary school to get rid of my original lisp! I was born several months premature, thankfully the only side-effect was my teeth came in very late, so I had learned to talk before my front teeth were fully in. It took me two years to get rid of it, and its taken me years to have to get it back when speaking in my albeit limited Amharic

I would say that if linguists want to identify a "gay accent" they would equally have to treat it like we do "black (i.e. broken) English" which is indeed an observable cultural phenomenon, but which has no basis what so ever in biology. I guess that language is never biological, but in popular thinking many folks express their prejudices through ideas like talking "gay" or talking "black" and again, prejudice is prejudice. I know reputable linguistics are not talking about prejudiced ideas, but the problem is many prejudiced people misunderstand what linguists are actually talking about, and therefore also mistakenly use this misunderstanding to vault their prejudice further under the veil of academic legitimacy. Sort of like phrenology but with languages

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 04:46:11 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

I do agree that a lisp is not necessarily an indicator of homosexuality, however in many cases it can be.

No. Being homosexual means that someone has a sexual attraction to members of the same sex. Homosexuality doesn't come as a sort of package, with a lisp and other stereotypes. Straight men have lisps. Will you go to their wives and accuse them of having a boyfriend on the side? I think that sometimes, we have trouble separating the reality of homosexuality with society's stereotypes and misconceptions.

Also, is this really your concern? When you die, will God say "You cannot enter! One of the bishops of your denomination was a practicing homosexual!"

I think that, if it doesn't impact your salvation, you shouldn't worry about it. We're always told to have the faith of a child. I don't think that a child would care what a bishop does in his private life.

And anyway, have faith in God. He is all-seeing, He knows what the bishop is up to, and if his actions are sinful. God will be the ultimate judge and punisher. Have faith in that.

Yeah, that's not really what's up in the field, as you can imagine. Unfortunately I don't have the PDF of the study anymore (cleared out all my folders at the end of the last term) or else I'd be able to provide more than just a citation, but it's a methodologically solid study, published in a peer reviewed linguistics journal and all that. Though you are right about what it doesn't say about biology...there is a reason, after all, why such things are published in sociophonetics journals and not general medical or biology journals. Not that bigots who are just looking to have their prejudices confirmed are likely to be reading any type of journal in the first place...

Good God....get out the stakes, light the fire, call the villagers with the pitchforks....

Really, a lisp proves nothing.Answer these in the affirmative and then u might have something.

I'm going to take this test based on myself.

Does he sashay when he walks? You'd better believe it!

Is he light in the loafers? I like loafers (esp. Bass weejuns) but, being 16 stone, I cannot be accused of being "light"

is he limp wristed? Only after I injure my wrist

does he wear rainbow colored clothing? I like colors. Lots of them. Some might even say I wear "garish" clothing in the spring and summer. In the fall and winter, I'm much more "sober," as befits the seasons.

does he listen to...the village people, Boy George, Cindy lauper, Liza Minnelli? Guilty on all counts

is he into musicals? Let's just say that a friend's mother recently gave me about 75 vinyl records...all soundtracks from Broadway musicals. I was particular giddy about the "Sound of Music" and "Sweeney Todd" (with Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou).

Quote

Ha, that was fun, couldent help myself.

How'd I do?

« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 05:05:51 PM by Schultz »

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

When it comes to everyone else, we view them as better than ourselves and disbelieve rumors saying, "God knows." And we pray for everyone, especially the clergy, asking God to help them and enlighten them.

Everything else, it seems to me, is from the devil.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

When it comes to everyone else, we view them as better than ourselves and disbelieve rumors saying, "God knows." And we pray for everyone, especially the clergy, asking God to help them and enlighten them.

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests? Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.

Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests? Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.

Indeed, spreading rumors about and falsely accusing hierarchs is a grave sin, because it causes scandal (in the true sense of the word, that is, something which may impede the salvation of others), and the canons rightfully declare that people who commit such a sin against the very Body of Christ should be excommunicated.

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

What if they do have homosexual struggles? If they do not freely engage in such activity, why are we concerned? What I'd one suffers from being an alcoholic years ago, or drug addict? Unless one is openly (or illegally) engaging in activities unbecoming their position and sinful in the eyes of the Church, which apparently they are not since its still a rumor, it's foolhardy to speculate.

And what's with the lisp comment?

Plan of action? Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

I have been told by certain people (to remain anonymous) that certain Orthodox hierarchs in a certain jurisdiction are in fact homosexuals. Now usually a rumor like that has some basis. One of the hierarchs whom I was told has been a homosexual for years has a noticeable "lisp" that many homosexuals have. Now personally, I have no problem with homosexuals as I am not God and whom am I to judge. However I have never spread these rumors but I have been told one of these hierarchs has paid for his lover's home in the Southeast with church funds. If that is true, I think that should be brought to light to that particular jurisdiction. Now my question is making an accusation against an Orthodox hierarch a "lawsuitable offense"? Please advise me as to what I should do? Part of me wants to hire a private investigator to get further evidence against this hierarch and then post online and pass though out the eparchies. Another part wants to confront the hierarch face to face with the accusation. And yet another part of me wants to look the other way and forget about it. Please advise me as to a correct plan of action.

I'm saddened - but not surprised - by the judgmental, mocking, and condemning attitude with which many people here have responded to your sincere concerns. Personally, I am thankful that you love the Church enough to be concerned about such issues. Unfortunately, many people here on OC.net feel that sincere Christian concern equates to judgmentalism; and in ironic fashion they will hypocritally judge you anytime you dare to mention moral concerns.

My advice - FWIW - is to discuss these concerns with your Priest, pray for the Bishops in question, and then if you believe action is called for, be brave enough to take such action. It would be a tragedy if our Orthodox Churches became scandalized by the sexual immorality and evils that have plagued the Roman Catholic clergy. And I'm sure that many devout Catholics who expressed the same concerns that you have here were told, "mind your own business," "don't judge," and "put a cork in it."

Are you seriously comparing bishops having sex with men, consensually, to bishops covering up the rape of children by their priests? Wow...

I'd also be careful about encouraging him to make accusations; if I recall correctly, there's at least one canon about how any accusations made about a bishop must be made to the bishop's synod, and that a layman who fails to prove his accusation must be excommunicated.

Never suggested anything of the sort. But I don't expect many people here to actually read what I write. Easier to make false accusations and cast judgment about my intentions, all in the name of "not being judgmental."

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

Plan of action? Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

And yes, I'll come right out and say it: I would never attend a parish that had an effiminate Priest. And I sure as heck wouldn't let my children anywhere near one. Call me judgmental all you want. I really don't care.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+

Plan of action? Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok.

Selam

I actually liked your advice better. Talk to his priest, but around here this seems to be the standard answer for almost everything. It makes sense to talk to the priest if for no other reason to alert the Church of the rumors. But without something of substance, I would not do anything further. Rumors are just that.

Plan of action? Stop worrying about t and let the Church deal with its own problems with unfounded rumors.

But our brother is part of the Church, and he has sincere concerns. I guess we should turn a blind eye and navel gaze until the toothpaste is out of the tube? Do you think the sexual scandals in the Roman Catholic church happened overnight? I'm would bet that lay people who expressed early concerns received the same rebukes our brother has here. So they kept quiet and minded their own business while the poison ran amok.

Selam

I actually liked your advice better. Talk to his priest, but around here this seems to be the standard answer for almost everything. It makes sense to talk to the priest if for no other reason to alert the Church of the rumors. But without something of substance, I would not do anything further. Rumors are just that.

Yeah, I agree.

Selam

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"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."Selam, +GMK+