1 getting the liberal nominated and controlled gg to suspend parliament even though the government was certain to fall and a replacement goverment had come forward with a written commitment to govern.

2 using that time to destroy dion and replace him with "their boy" the anti coalition right win iggy.

According to that theory (in the eyes of this executive), harper is and his attempt to make a one party state is just the sideshow. The main thing on their minds is to put their obedient puppet in the leadership leadership and get rid of the usurper dion. And that other potential usurper is gone now too.

PERFECT Order is restored, iggy was supposed to win much earlier but the party members screwed THAT up!

Now we have OUR man in the leadership. PHEW back to normal politics again.

Gram: I'm not sure what that story you linked has to do with Ovechkin, let alone Iggy, but thanks for your tagline... I'm happy to realize the meaning behind your name, though I'll admit to feeling a little silly for never digging that up before

the lib party exec are the living and breathing libs who were not appointed to anything by Chretien or Martin and are holding out hope that a new lib pm will apoint them to the senate or an agency or a foreign posting

I happen to think Michael Ignatieff is a complete tool, in every possible sense of the word. But this particular episode is about the Liberal Party rising to the occasion for once and actually being more interested in responding to a national crisis than engaging in a faction fight.

There are a lot of nauseating, stupid things the Liberals have done in the past few years. This is not one of them.

------------------------------------

"One of the strange things about ideas is that they have a life of their own. They take over people and sometimes whole countries." - Brian Fawcett

Stuart, do you mean by your post that you think the Libs will actually vote to defeat the government and form a coalition Cabinet with the NDP? Every signal from Iggy indicates the opposite, though of course he says the coalition is still together and he is prepared to vote non-confidence, the obscenely giddy reaction from Brison and McCallum after a routine meeting with Flaherty was a strong sign that the Libs are desperate to ditch the coalition at the first opportunity.

What do you base your optimism on, Stuart? I'd love to believe you but would like to hear some rationale first.

Stuart, do you mean by your post that you think the Libs will actually vote to defeat the government and form a coalition Cabinet with the NDP?

Not at all, unless the Conservatives insist on deviating from the G20 approach. But it does appear that they have capitulated on that so I'm expecting a budget that isn't too bad.

West Coast Lefty wrote:

What do you base your optimism on, Stuart? I'd love to believe you but would like to hear some rationale first.

I should clarify: I believe that it was important for the Liberal Party to have a functioning leader capable of actually running something ASAP. That was something they didn't have when the Coalition was fronted -- otherwise the Old Man wouldn't have had to show up and arrange it. As we all know, Stephane Dion isn't capable of performing fairly simple tasks. Their decision to shut down their leadership race and anoint the frontrunner was a responsible thing for them to do. For once, the ambition of individual Liberals took a back seat to them actually doing their job as the Official Opposition.

But let me be clear: the Liberals are there to advance the agenda of liberalism, not social democracy. It is their job to get a rational, business-friendly budget and that is what they appear to have obtained. I am commending the Liberal Party on doing a good job of being the Liberal Party not on doing a good job of being the NDP. But given the lousy job they've done of being the Liberal Party for the past three years, I figured that it is an improvement.

If the Liberals want to at least have the threat of being able to sustain a viable coalition, they simply couldn't have a party led by Dion, and expected to change leadership in three months.

It is clear that Canada needs stable, predictable government right now, and a coalition held together by a leader with a 3 month expiry date, is not stable or predictable.

Having said that, I'm certainly no fan of Ignatieff, and I think he realizes given the general mutual distaste that he and the average Canadian have for eachother, playing backroom politics and gaining the favour of the elite, is the only way he is going to win the Liberal leadership.

Oh well, at least I'm not undecided about being Liberal or NDP anymore.

People have totally bought in to the idea (planted by harper and carried on by the media) that dion is an idiot.

Here is a fact. Dion was 3 days from being PM.

This didn't just happen either,

He had to work with people in the bloq who he did not really like and with leyton. Pretty good actually. Real policics in action. Real concensus building.

Who stopped him?

Not harper.

The governor general. A sleeper working for the backroom boys!

Even though the coalition had a signed agreement and signed support from the bloq for 18 months, it was not good enough for her!

Before you knew it, the liberal backroom boys had deposed him without a vote.

I was born in a country with a lot more respect for democracy. If a president in Ireland (much the same powers as the GG) had done this, (denied a coalition with a SIGNED agreement) there would have been a rebellion and I am pretty sure many of the government supporters would have joined. We know the rules and lucky for us, they are written into the constitution.

In Canada we rely on the "judgement" of an unelected unqualified official.

Hell some canadians think coup means coalition!

Simon says, Joe Canuck does.

Collectively we are incredibly dumb.

If we had propper sensible rules we would not have needed her "judgement".

I totally agree with Brian. Dion was an acceptable leader with decent, rational ideas, thrown onto the garbage heap by his own backroom boys who will never allow an alliance with true progressives.

It's a travesty that Canadians allow the corporate-slanted media to lead them by the nose and tell them how and what to think. When the chickens of apathy and political ignorance come home to roost, things will be ugly, indeed. I feel sorry fo the next generation who won't even know what freedoms they've lost.

The nonsense that has, and that is still, being spewed out in the press about Canadians not voting for a coalition is pathetic. Of course we don't vote for a coalition when we go to the ballot box, whoever said we did. What gets conveniently omitted in all these brilliant observations however, is nor do we vote for a prime minister, and nor do we vote for a cabinet.

62% of Canadians did not vote for Harper, so why is he acting like more than 50% voted for him, why is our press supporting him in these endeavours, and why would we be waiting one day past January 27, or whatever the date is that Parliament resumes, to bring him down to earth with a thud? Are we collectively nuts?

The Harper smear job, with the help of the corporate media, effectively killed the coalition and gave the LPC wheelers and dealers a chance to replace Dion with their prefered leader.

If Ignatieff were even half heartedly interested in keeping the coalition response as a back pocket option, he would have spent the last many weeks meeting with Layton and Duceppe. There's been nothing but radio silence on that front.

The only reason he isn't announcing the concept of the coalition being dead is because he thinks he can pretend to have more backbone entering this next session with that veiled threat. But it's bogus and I'm sure Harper recognizes that. Iggy will fold like a cheap deck of cards when the budget is presented.

Are people seriously suggesting, based on his conduct in the office of Liberal Party leader, that Stephane Dion was competent? Maybe you guys need a reminder of the Liberals' byelection candidates and campaigns, Dion's attacks on his own handful of supporters during his time in office, his abject failure to craft messaging that resonated with people, the massive strike by Liberal volunteers and activists during his tenure, his simultaneous promotion of the Green Party coupled with his failure to get them to withdraw from any seats his party could win, etc.

I was a big fan of Dion when he got the job. But I stunned, month-in, month-out by the complete clown car of a party he ran. Sure he was the victim of negative ads but the ads worked with such a gigantic proportion of the electorate because, fundamentally, voters are not THAT dumb. On election day, 70% of the people who voted Liberal anyway didn't believe he was up to the job.

Replacing Dion just after the proroguement endorsed the conservative spin about Dion's "game-playing". I thought there was to be a party election in may, why the rush. By selecting Ignatieff they gave Harper his "parachuting" argumrnt. I guess this whole thread could be re framed to ask should NDP continue to treat with a Liberal Party with so little regard for the norms of elected representative government.

Dion wasn´t a competent leader of the opposition, that is for sure, but I´m already nostalgic. Iggy´s positions mark him as complete scum. Its clear thats why the Lib bigwigs have wanted him for a while now. The scariest thing about Iggy is that a lot of his vulnerabilities are his atrocious foreign policy positions and that hasn´t been an area where the NDP has shown a lot of ability at challenging the consensus. I could see the NDP sleepwalking into this with a bunch more lightweight slogans and tinkering about and just getting demolished. The party needs to seriously engage its grassroots and actually reflect the vision they represent or they are going to make themselves so bland that they become invisible and at a time when progressive Canadians should be very worried about the "choice" presented to us.

People have totally bought in to the idea (planted by harper and carried on by the media) that dion is an idiot.

Dion proved himself to be an incompetent idiot on numerous occasions.

1) The Greenshift

2) Elizabeth May Central Nova Deal

3) The Greenshift

4) SCREWING UP A NATIONAL TELEVISION ADDRESS THAT RUBBER STAMPED HIM AS AN INCOMPETENT IDIOT!!!

5) Failing to step down as Liberal Leader immediately after the federal election

6) Backing down on all confidence votes

7) Unable to remain focused on the issues of the Coalition.

8) Elizabeth May Fiasco PART II (THE SENATE)

9) Unable to grasp the economic Meltdown focused back on Geek Issues

10) Should have stepped aside for the good of the Party and the coalition in order to put Stephen Harper out of office.

Dion was an idiot. He is an idiot. He made stupid stupid stupid decisions and they were inexperienced and amaturish.

The Television address was sheer incompetence. Harper didn't have to do anything, Dion did it all on his own and took down 2 parties with him.

Quote:

Here is a fact. Dion was 3 days from being PM.

No, a competent leader may have been 3 days away from being Prime Minister. Jack Layton would have pulled off being Prime Minister if select 4 days before. Perhaps even Iggy or Rae, or Goodale, or just about anyone with a heartbeat. But once Dion was Chosen to lead the coalition, the coalition was no longer 3 days from achieving power, they were set back on their heels and decimated because of DION. Dion was NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER close to being Prime Minister. If Dion had what it took to be Prime Minister, he would have not only asked for NATIONAL AIR TIME, he would have DELIVERED THE ADDRESS.

Harper outperformed and REMAINS Prime Minister Because of DION!!!

Quote:

Who stopped him?

Not harper.

Thats right, Harper didn't stop him, Dion committed his own brand of Hari Kari. His Party Stopped him and forced him to resign immediately after being a public embarrassment to himself, the party and the coalition.

Quote:

Before you knew it, the liberal backroom boys had deposed him without a vote.

The above is who made the CORRECT DECISION, one that they should have taken immediately upon creating the coalition. Do not blame the LPC for doing the right thing. Perhaps the selection of IGGY was handled improperly but the riddence of Dion was TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

Quote:

I was born in a country with a lot more respect for democracy. If a president in Ireland (much the same powers as the GG) had done this, (denied a coalition with a SIGNED agreement) there would have been a rebellion and I am pretty sure many of the government supporters would have joined. We know the rules and lucky for us, they are written into the constitution.

We are not Ireland. I am not a fan of rebellions and bombs. Reminds me to much of FLQ days, and one time being in England and missing an IRA bomb by one subway stop. But you are correct in that the Canadian Public doesn't give a rats ass about the Suspension of Parliment.

Quote:

Hell some canadians think coup means coalition!

They sure do.. That is because Harper was able to get his message out after a flawed address to the Nation. Dion was INCAPABLE of getting his message out regarding the coalition, because he "wasn't used to not being in government". That was DIONs job to get that message out, as Coalition Leader as selected by the LPC. Part of being an IDIOT is failing to get your vital and important message out to the public when given VALUEABLE AIRTIME.

WHy you choose to defend that GOOF who screwed up his party, the coalition and failed to get help out to Canadians is beyond me. That jackass couldn't talk about the economy without a 3 peat. Some blamed CTV for showing that Dion was as useless as tits on a board. Dion was given an opportunity to prove them wrong with a RECORDED message with no interference from the network.

He was a screwup.

If Dion were to have had the qualities to be a Prime Minister, he needed to tell Elizabeth May , no fn'n way are we discussing a Senate seat for you.

He proved to the Public, that it was about him, her, and selfishness, over the needs of the Public. So why choose a selfish goof, over a selfish prick if you are the public. THe believe they voted for the lying selfish prick, and prefer that to the goof.

Max, you do not like dion, or may. (I don't give a shit about may so no problem there). And clearly you read the papers and clearly you are influenced by them. Big time.

But this is the real truth. Dion had the balls to negociate with the bloq and with the NDP, for an 18 month peace agreement FOR THE GOOD OF CANADIANS.

Harper could not prevent this agreement and could not stop his defeat. The GG intervened to save Harper. FACT

I do not care who rocks your boat politically. Seems to be Harper or IGGY.

But facts are facts. Dion had a coalition government signed and sealed and ready to save Canada.

The GG stuck in the first knife, liberal backroom boys stuck in the second, and Iggy probably wants to suck face with harper and rehabiliate him.

Fact is harper is bad news.

No plan to get through the economic meltdown, REMEMBER?

(Just an attack on womans rights and workers rights generally).

Then an economic council of rich bastards to thieve off more national assets, Remember?

And then a plan to hand billions to fucked up car company bosses while slashing union rights. Remember.

I strongly believe a Dion led coalition with NDP ministers and bloq support would have made a real plan.

madmax wrote:

Brian White wrote:

People have totally bought in to the idea (planted by harper and carried on by the media) that dion is an idiot.

Dion proved himself to be an incompetent idiot on numerous occasions.

1) The Greenshift

2) Elizabeth May Central Nova Deal

3) The Greenshift

4) SCREWING UP A NATIONAL TELEVISION ADDRESS THAT RUBBER STAMPED HIM AS AN INCOMPETENT IDIOT!!!

5) Failing to step down as Liberal Leader immediately after the federal election

6) Backing down on all confidence votes

7) Unable to remain focused on the issues of the Coalition.

8) Elizabeth May Fiasco PART II (THE SENATE)

9) Unable to grasp the economic Meltdown focused back on Geek Issues

10) Should have stepped aside for the good of the Party and the coalition in order to put Stephen Harper out of office.

Dion was an idiot. He is an idiot. He made stupid stupid stupid decisions and they were inexperienced and amaturish.

The Television address was sheer incompetence. Harper didn't have to do anything, Dion did it all on his own and took down 2 parties with him.

Quote:

Here is a fact. Dion was 3 days from being PM.

No, a competent leader may have been 3 days away from being Prime Minister. Jack Layton would have pulled off being Prime Minister if select 4 days before. Perhaps even Iggy or Rae, or Goodale, or just about anyone with a heartbeat. But once Dion was Chosen to lead the coalition, the coalition was no longer 3 days from achieving power, they were set back on their heels and decimated because of DION. Dion was NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER close to being Prime Minister. If Dion had what it took to be Prime Minister, he would have not only asked for NATIONAL AIR TIME, he would have DELIVERED THE ADDRESS.

Harper outperformed and REMAINS Prime Minister Because of DION!!!

Quote:

Who stopped him?

Not harper.

Thats right, Harper didn't stop him, Dion committed his own brand of Hari Kari. His Party Stopped him and forced him to resign immediately after being a public embarrassment to himself, the party and the coalition.

Quote:

Before you knew it, the liberal backroom boys had deposed him without a vote.

The above is who made the CORRECT DECISION, one that they should have taken immediately upon creating the coalition. Do not blame the LPC for doing the right thing. Perhaps the selection of IGGY was handled improperly but the riddence of Dion was TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

Quote:

I was born in a country with a lot more respect for democracy. If a president in Ireland (much the same powers as the GG) had done this, (denied a coalition with a SIGNED agreement) there would have been a rebellion and I am pretty sure many of the government supporters would have joined. We know the rules and lucky for us, they are written into the constitution.

We are not Ireland. I am not a fan of rebellions and bombs. Reminds me to much of FLQ days, and one time being in England and missing an IRA bomb by one subway stop. But you are correct in that the Canadian Public doesn't give a rats ass about the Suspension of Parliment.

Quote:

Hell some canadians think coup means coalition!

They sure do.. That is because Harper was able to get his message out after a flawed address to the Nation. Dion was INCAPABLE of getting his message out regarding the coalition, because he "wasn't used to not being in government". That was DIONs job to get that message out, as Coalition Leader as selected by the LPC. Part of being an IDIOT is failing to get your vital and important message out to the public when given VALUEABLE AIRTIME.

WHy you choose to defend that GOOF who screwed up his party, the coalition and failed to get help out to Canadians is beyond me. That jackass couldn't talk about the economy without a 3 peat. Some blamed CTV for showing that Dion was as useless as tits on a board. Dion was given an opportunity to prove them wrong with a RECORDED message with no interference from the network.

He was a screwup.

If Dion were to have had the qualities to be a Prime Minister, he needed to tell Elizabeth May , no fn'n way are we discussing a Senate seat for you.

He proved to the Public, that it was about him, her, and selfishness, over the needs of the Public. So why choose a selfish goof, over a selfish prick if you are the public. THe believe they voted for the lying selfish prick, and prefer that to the goof.

Max, you do not like dion, or may. (I don't give a shit about may so no problem there).

I am sure he is a nice man. He was not suited to be the Prime Minister of Canada, let alone Liberal Leader.

Quote:

And clearly you read the papers and clearly you are influenced by them. Big time.

I knew the coalition was in trouble the moment they affirmed Dion as leader. I knew he would fail and said very clearly prior to his debacle that he could ruin the coalition within 5 days. He did it in 3. If only it were as simple as the papers. Mr Layton is not loved by the media and the NDP are rarely put in a bright light, unlike the Liberal Party and Mr. Dion was given lots of slack to make his own noose. He is the master of his disaster. Elizabeth May grabs media attention and the media were happy to help Elizabeth May promote her Senate Seat aspirations. Mr. Dion makes poor choices, and it is his job to do what was best for the coalition and to form opinion. He formed an opinion to the public that he was involved in Senate discussions. That is his own undoing, and opened the door to freedom for Harpers Senate Manuevers.

Quote:

But this is the real truth. Dion had the balls to negociate with the bloq and with the NDP, for an 18 month peace agreement FOR THE GOOD OF CANADIANS.

Sometimes, when kicked in the balls, you do things for the survival of your testicles, from another deadly blow. Unfortuneately, for Dion, "The Good of Canadians" was never on Mr. Dions radar screen. The LPC were in "survival" mode and willing to cooperate with the NDP in order to stave off certain oblivion. Canadians and the failure of the CPC, the finance minister, and the CPC policies were easy pickings for the coalition to exploit. However, the moment Mr. Dion took the reigns, the train that had left the station, was out of control and running out of track.

Quote:

Harper could not prevent this agreement and could not stop his defeat. The GG intervened to save Harper. FACT

Harper could and did prevent his defeat and the implementation of this coalition agreement by asking the GG to prorogue parliment, after postponing the confidence vote once already. He did so, without upsetting the public because the LPC put in the worst possible frontman to lead the coalition, and people rejected him on mass in huge numbers, many from his own party, the NDP, and swing voters and non voters. If anyone else had been the leader, the coalition would have had more credibility and possible someone with the skill to put the ball back in the CPC endzone.

Dion tried to go on TV and put the ball in his own net.

Quote:

I do not care who rocks your boat politically. Seems to be Harper or IGGY.

tweedle dee and tweedle dum.

Quote:

But facts are facts. Dion had a coalition government signed and sealed and ready to save Canada.

All it needed next was a leader.

Quote:

The GG stuck in the first knife, liberal backroom boys stuck in the second, and Iggy probably wants to suck face with harper and rehabiliate him.

Come ON!!! The GG was not involved with Dions previous election debacle, his Senate Talk, or the fact that not only was he a weak and poor communicator, but that he demonstrated is incompetence on National Television. The coalition moving from strength to weakness in rapid fashion is attributable to one thing only. Dions pathetic performance.

Quote:

No plan to get through the economic meltdown, REMEMBER?

Harper still has no plan. And the coalitions economic plan was lost in the public opinion because instead of talking economy he let Elizabeth May set the tone for a Senate appointment for her. Dion couldn't steer, he wasn't capable in the drivers seat.

Quote:

I strongly believe a Dion led coalition with NDP ministers and bloq support would have made a real plan.

Dion did lead the coalition and He failed.... Not quite certain how you can change that fact.

No, Max, the ONLY reason we do not have a coalition government right now is the Govenor General.

In ANY other country with parliamentary democracy, in the face of a signed coalition agreement, she would have HAD to tell harper to fuck off.

If she had not torpedoed it, the coalition would be in power almost certainly with Dion as PM. What she did is as bad as when the judges in the usa elected george the 2nd to his first term while the votes were still being counted.

The only reason we will not have a coalition government in the near future is because the LPC choose Dion over a competent leader. He has made such a disgraceful presentation of the coalition as a legitimate and competent government, that it will be unlikely that Iggy will dare risk his political career on something that had great potential but now has the allure of road kill. Jack Layton is paying a significant price for the errors of Dion and the NDP is losing support across Canada, unless you consider a 5 point drop a great thing for a coalition member.

Dion was never going to be the Prime Minister. Reality proves that very fact. Only some die hard and vocal minority believers, ever felt that Dion was right to lead the coalition.

Coalition supporters should consider themselves lucky that GGMJ actually suspended parliment. Had she not and the vote gone forward, both the coalition and GGMJ would be feeling tremendous heat to have an election, because after Dions disgrace on national television, it would be beyond a hard sell to pretend he could or should act as Prime Minister in a coalition. Signed agreement or not.

Add to this MJ background rooted in Separation and her husbands close ties to the separtists, the irony of having Separtists act on behalf of the Queen and put forth the coalition government is a political nightmare playing into the hands of the CPC and public support for there well orchestrated counter attack.

If a competent leader, anyone but Dion, had lead the coalition, and shown effective leadership, messaging and competence, we may well have MPs sitting in the house.

Anyone seeing Dions performance could never entertain the thought of him as our Prime Minister. That includes those in the LPC and those in the NDP.

Dions performance was so bad, he should have resigned the next day.

Dion, prior to the selection of him as leader of the coalition, should have done the right thing, and stepped aside because he was a proven political liability with no track record to prove legitimacy.

Legitimacy must be felt among the people of Canada, and not just the GG. The reason you hear no outcry, no rebellion, is because the public was more content with the poor choice of suspending parliment over putting an incompetent buffoon, and someone who the clearly, and decisively rejected, by leading the LPC to their worst electoral percentage since confederation.

Continue to defend the undefendable......

The coalition is in the mess because of Dion...... that is what leadership is all about.

If you think that, why do you think Jack and the Separatist leader did a deal with Dion?

When the coalition was announced, the first inkling I got was people with candles for the coalition lining the streets as my bus home from work drew near victoria.

I never saw that before!

I think you and your arguements are daft by the way. You are totally led around by the nose by whatever the newspapers write. In the tyee this week lots of people spoke up for the coalition. But that is not controlled by the big media boys.

The dion video was poor quality but the speech was ok.

Why did you not listen to what he said?

Do you prefer newsreaders as politicians because that can be aranged?

You seem to be saying that you want a guy with shoulder pads and a salami stuck down his trowsers as a leader?

It took real guts for Dion to make a deal with the others.

Canadians do not know how to count, and do not understand that numbers in the commons is all that matters. The coalition has the numbers and harper does not. So in a normal parliamentary democracy, harper says bye bye.

In germany, and holland, and sweden and norway and ireland, people might look at the numbers in the Canadian parliament and conclude "those canadians on the left are fucken stupid, can they not count?" In all those countries, even if you have a coalition with a majority of 1, no conservative fuckwit gets to lord it over you for a second. But you want harper to continue!

Dion is gone, what is to stop a coalition now? Absolutely nothing.

(In a normal country where people can count, that is.)

I have never seen the like of it. Politicians get the scent of power in a normal country and they would trade their mothers or daughters to get it.

But here, you expect them to run away screaming! "Daddy harper, save us from coalition".

Mad Max, according to your comments, our MPS should choose our Prime Minister solely on the basis of gwiney-voiced, politically slanted newspaper articles, "The people rejected (Dion) on mass in huge numbers, many from his own party, the NDP, and swing voters and non voters."

So I ask you: What "people"? This is the real question to ask yourself, here. What people? The people determined by newspaper pundits, or the people who went out to anti-coalition protests?

Because that's what you're saying.

What you and so many other Canadians don't seem to understand is that your personal (or shall I say your media-brainwashed personal opinion) that Dion is "incompetent," or Jack is an "embarrassment," or May is "overtly ambitious" or whatever ad hominen personal attacks and opinions you repeat about said leaders - has nothing to do with whether the coalition is legally sanctioned or not. And for that matter, neither does the opinion of what ANYONE in the media count, either, no matter who they are or no matter their numbers at protests, etc.

In an honestly run democracy, that is.

In a genuine democracy the coalition's viability is strictly a legal parliamentary matter. Period. It's black and white, unless hi-jacked, which I fear it has been by the GG, the Conservatives, and very likely Ignatieff and his corporate-loving backroom boys. We'll know for sure, come the end of January.

Once again, please read your parliamentary history. Your high school popularity contest method of choosing the leader, ie. using your personal opinion of (see rants above) who you like and who you don't want to see in political power, and why as the basis of who is allowed to rule, is completely, totally, legally, morally, and ethically IRRELEVANT.

If you think that, why do you think Jack and the Separatist leader did a deal with Dion?

The deal was not signed until Dion was re-affirmed as Liberal Leader and fingered to head the coalition, as accepted by the LPC MPs. The Coalition had left the station and was going to happen no matter WHO was chosen to head it. It could have been any member of the LPC. The LPC made the Same mistake twice. Not in choosing Dion, but for the reasons behind choosing Dion. He would be the one to make less waves in the party, and would step down in 5months. They failed to realize what a bumbling idiot he was, and that he was more then capable of blowing it before the Monday Deadline. Obviously NDP supporters had rallies to have Jack be the interum leader of the coalition until a Real Liberal leader could be selected. This could have been the best missed opportunity for the coalition, as, regardless of what you may think of Mr. Layton, he has proven competent, effective and an excellent media communicator and spokesperson, and this was going to be a big event when television media makes the story. But that said, any Liberal Leader from Rae to Iggy to Leblanc, Goodale etc, could have the jelly to have forwarded the coalition if the LPC could set aside their internal battles. Unfortuneately it took another Dion Meltdown to prove how much the party needed solid leadership.

Quote:

When the coalition was announced, the first inkling I got was people with candles for the coalition lining the streets as my bus home from work drew near victoria.

I never saw that before!

To bad Dion blew out the candles on the your cake. That is the problem when someone like DIon is spoonfed, they believe their entitlement and leadership is a cakewalk when holdup in a cocoon.

Quote:

I think you and your arguements are daft by the way. You are totally led around by the nose by whatever the newspapers write. In the tyee this week lots of people spoke up for the coalition. But that is not controlled by the big media boys.

It doesn't matter if you think my arguments are daft. One of us has to accept the fact that Dion was relieved of command for good reasons.

Quote:

The dion video was poor quality but the speech was ok.

Why did you not listen to what he said?

I tried very hard to listen to his national address. Like most people, I got to hear Prime Ministers Harpers underwhelming, short and shallow address to the Nation that would have buried him had........

1) Dion not failed to produce his televised taped address.

2) That because it was Dion and because he was incompetent, the tape a disgrace and an embarrassment, the story turned from Harpers weak performance to Dions ..... MIA tape to end all coalitions.

You do not BEG for national television time then be a no show, if you intend to be the Prime Minister of Canada.

Quote:

Do you prefer newsreaders as politicians because that can be aranged?

You seem to be saying that you want a guy with shoulder pads and a salami stuck down his trowsers as a leader?

My arguments are daft? Thanks for providing that piece above

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It took real guts for Dion to make a deal with the others.

He would have had real guts if he had stepped down. He would have been able to take some credit for the coalition and leave in class. The LPC found their guts when their survival was in question. It has nothing to do with Guts for DIon to "make a deal", they had no choice.

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Canadians do not know how to count, and do not understand that numbers in the commons is all that matters. The coalition has the numbers and harper does not. So in a normal parliamentary democracy, harper says bye bye.

It was Harper who didn't know how to count. It was Dion who blew it.

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But you want harper to continue!

If I wanted Harper to continue I wouldn't have been so vocal about the potential for the coalition to come apart at the seams should Dion should be the leader. I wouldn't have pushed an ABD campaign, and it wouldn't piss me off that people who were excited about the coalition were willing to overlook the weakness and incompetence of Dion. See, I was excited about the coalition and the fact that government was going to get the wakeup call it needed. But it took only moments to realize that Dion was not only incompetent, he was disconnected to what was/is happening with the economy. He was lost and sidetracked and living sugar plum dreams as Prime Minister while handing out Senate seats and acting and behaving like an MP of entitlement becoming a PM of entitlement.

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Dion is gone, what is to stop a coalition now? Absolutely nothing.

The fact that Dion tainted the coalition. That the word is Cancer to many Canadians, the fact that the current Leader of the Liberals doesn't mention the word and is more then likely willing to keep this Harper Government afloat and position themselve for a fall 2009 election.

The only Party that might have an interest in the coalition as a viable force is the NDP and since the LPC is playing them.... It is going to take another Harper Brainfart before the LPC and NDP find a way to go forward together. I wouldn't hold my breath......the LPC believe they can get back a handful of seats in an election, because Dion put the elevator in the basement and the only direction is UP. They will be fundraising and targeting ridings and undermining the NDP to put them in a stronger opposition position and treat this as a two step approach back to power.

The coalition is nothing more then a bargaining chip, and they are not going to spend any resources to fight a PR campaign for the coalition.

Max said".
He would have had real guts if he had stepped down. He would have been able to take some credit for the coalition and leave in class. The LPC found their guts when their survival was in question. It has nothing to do with Guts for DIon to "make a deal", they had no choice".
Ok, so who was going to take over when he stepped down? Remember?

He was to be interim leader till the new boy was elected.
I said

"Dion is gone, what is to stop a coalition now? Absolutely nothing".
Max said
"The fact that Dion tainted the coalition. That the word is Cancer to many Canadians, the fact that the current Leader of the Liberals doesn't mention the word and is more then likely willing to keep this Harper Government afloat and position themselve for a fall 2009 election".

You know guys, you live in a parliament democracy, If you cannot get your head around something as simple as "coalition" you have a few pieces missing in the old head department. That goes especially to NDP people but also to liberal supporters. If Iggie rejects the coalition, there will be no liberal comeback and you will get a split left with minimal power for 2 or 3 elections. I support the coalition and a smooth transfer of power to a left of center group.

What does Max support? We know what he hates, he cannot say the c word. What is he positive about? Anything, anybody?

Mad Max, according to your comments, our MPS should choose our Prime Minister solely on the basis of gwiney-voiced, politically slanted newspaper articles, "The people rejected (Dion) on mass in huge numbers, many from his own party, the NDP, and swing voters and non voters."

The people did reject Dion. That was proven at the polls and shortly afterwards with his immediate removal from the LPC. Political Parties don't terminate popular leaders. Dion had one huge opportunity to swing popular opinion on national television, during a moment that was creating more interest then the September election. He did worse then anyone could ever expect. He even surpassed my worst expectations for him which weren't all that optimistic.

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So I ask you: What "people"? This is the real question to ask yourself, here. What people? The people determined by newspaper pundits, or the people who went out to anti-coalition protests?

I am glad you think things are ticky boo for the coalition and everything is hunkey dory. There are waves of people 62% dying to have a coalition, and the LPC are drooling at the opportunity to take the reigns of power with Ignatieff at the helm. No, not even these opportunistic Liberals will commit to the successful coalition that Dion left behind.

That is because, while the coalition platform looks good, what the former LPC leader left behind was a train wreck. There isn't strong public support for the coalition, but there is strong anger that goes past the CPC partisan hack.

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Because that's what you're saying.

I say what I think needs to be said, and I listen to what others say. Some people do believe that the coalition is supported by a large portion of the population. They can continue to believe that...... or that Dion was a great leader and has no blame in how the coalition is perceived publicly, or in his televised address. People questioned my posts prior to Dion leading the coalition. THere was no media dissing him, they were too excited about the events and wondering if he would get a 2nd life and a chance to redeem himself. That makes great copy. But then so does a national disaster, which is what Dion managed to achieve, as he failed to get the coalition message out.

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What you and so many other Canadians don't seem to understand is that your personal (or shall I say your media-brainwashed personal opinion) that Dion is "incompetent,

People expect the person who is about to make history and become the next Prime Minister of Canada to be able to demonstrate his competence by giving a national address during the air time alloted, just as the Prime Minister himself was able to accomplish, no matter how medicore. That event rubber stamped that the below average Harper performance was competent enough when compared to Dions prime time disaster.

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" or Jack is an "embarrassment,"

He is competent, not an embarrassment, that is for Dion. No doubt Jack can count and acts like a player and deal maker.

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or May is "overtly ambitious" or whatever ad hominen personal attacks and opinions you repeat about said leaders

She asked for a Senate seat during a critical crises in parliment. The facts are the facts, and if you cannot grasp that it was important for first Dion then Jack to squash that bug, because it legitimized Harpers quest in stacking the Senate. Her self interest and Dions inability to deal with it, are one of many mistakes and failures DIon made in a short time.

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- has nothing to do with whether the coalition is legally sanctioned or not. And for that matter, neither does the opinion of what ANYONE in the media count, either, no matter who they are or no matter their numbers at protests, etc.

Dions actions and damage to the coalition are reasons why the coalition may never come to fruition, regardless of the proroguing of parliment. If Dion hadn't been such a media disaster and had he been capable of telling May there was no Senate seat for her or anyone during the coalitions existence, then the coalition could make a case for Harpers Senate appointments of partisan hacks.

It certainly does make a difference, or the coalition wouldn't be in the position it is in today, which isn't the position of strength it held prior to Dion being selected as coalition leader, and Harper postponing votes to avoid the inevitable. It would still be inevitable no matter how much Harper delays parliment except that Dion crippled the coalition.

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In a genuine democracy the coalition's viability is strictly a legal parliamentary matter. Period. It's black and white, unless hi-jacked, which I fear it has been by the GG, the Conservatives, and very likely Ignatieff and his corporate-loving backroom boys. We'll know for sure, come the end of January.

I do not agree with the GGs decision. However it is done. It also gave the coalition more time to build a base to challenge the CPC but it appears clear that the LPC do not believe a coalition is the best bet in their long term interests.

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Once again, please read your parliamentary history. Your high school popularity contest method of choosing the leader, ie. using your personal opinion of (see rants above) who you like and who you don't want to see in political power, and why as the basis of who is allowed to rule, is completely, totally, legally, morally, and ethically IRRELEVANT.

You know guys, you live in a parliament democracy, If you cannot get your head around something as simple as "coalition" you have a few pieces missing in the old head department. That goes especially to NDP people but also to liberal supporters. If Iggie rejects the coalition, there will be no liberal comeback and you will get a split left with minimal power for 2 or 3 elections. I support the coalition and a smooth transfer of power to a left of center group.

You may have an accurate crystal ball. The NDP have no controll over the actions of the LPC. But you can blame them too for the LPC wavering personality.

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What does Max support? We know what he hates, he cannot say the c word. What is he positive about? Anything, anybody?

The recent election determined the fact that 3 parties outnumber 1 in the House of Commons; popular public opinion, including yours, has no validity in deciding whether the coalition is legal or whether it will persist.

The recent election determined the fact that 3 parties outnumber 1 in the House of Commons;

The recent election determined that MPs were elected from four parties and a couple independents. From these elected officials is the responsibility to provide good government and pass legislation. Currently, since the September Election, the CPC have found themselves, hamstrung, Isolated and alone. In order to pass legislation they will need to find support from across the floor or lose a confidence vote.

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popular public opinion, including yours, has no validity in deciding whether the coalition is legal or whether it will persist.

I could keep my opinion to myself and coalition supporters can continue to chicken nodd to one another that all is great, everything is going forward and things have went to plan. That the only problem the coalition faced was a bad ruling from the GG.

If you bothered to read my posts and I am sure you haven't..., I am not alone if you look at the Babble poll, many supported the coalition with reservations. Your right our public opinion has no validity, but babble runs their invalid poll and provides this invalid discussion forum, just so you can tell me how invalid your opinion is to mine.

I have never argued the validity of the coalition. The coalition does not exist, and won't unless the government falls. The coalition may not come to fruition because many Liberal MPs no longer support it and many openly oppose it. And much like the "Emerson Effect" where people were conned to vote LPC Emerson to stop the CPC, only to see him defect, you have a case in Guelph, where there were "3 Progressive" candidates and one CPC candidate and come EDay they all rallied around the LPC candidate to prevent the CPC candidate from winning. However the LPC candidate is more conservative then the CPC candidate, and the LPC elected MP openly opposes the coalition.

If Dion had performed as a professional with competence to lead, govern, make decisions and deliver, I would have had egg on my face and probably ketchup too. Dion only had to hold it together until a vote. He only had to perform marginal above or below Harper, it wouldn't have made much difference, to hold the coalition together, and he needed to hit a home run to convince the public that all the previous visions of him were a stereotype. But he lived up to the stereotype and exceeded everyone expectations for incompetence and delusion. His gong show performance sealed public opinion about whether they wanted this new change, and soon after his 15 minutes of fame were up.... he exited stage left.

There is nothing wrong with having a coalition that is making a change in government that has public support. There is nothing wrong with the forming of a coalition that is holding most of its support. THere is something wrong when the coalition is not supported by the very voters who elected LPC and NDP MPs. Those supporters will move to the CPC and the CPC knows this. They marketed their coup gig and it worked.

I am certain my dislike for Harper is as irrellavent as my Dislike for Dion and I like to comment on Elizabeth May because she is always saying outrageous things that the media loves to print and not challenge, because the other politicians have to squirm and deal with her. Thus, both Dion and Layton got caught holding the Elizabeth May Senate Ball. Dion couldn't tell her to take a hike, (and maybe he didn't want to, they did deals going on) and according to NDP supporters here, if Mr. Layton had said no Senate seat for May on the Principle that the NDP wants the Senate abolished, there would be more phoney outrage and they didn't need anymore aggravation as things had been going well up to that point.

The coalition was formed because the LPC were going to lose their funding and it would likely be the end of the LPC as we knew it to be. However, in order to get the public onboard, there has to be a sense of "why is this happening" and it can't be to put the LPC in power, because the electorate had just PUNISHED the LPC for coming up with the most ineffectual leader with an incomprehensible plan that made no sense. So how come this leader is coming back to haunt them. The storyline started out that , Flaherty dropped the ball, and the LPC and NDP picked it up. The people involved had depth, and the old guard were uniting in the LPC and from without the LPC in the form of Ed Broadbent. They were all on message and focused.

Then Dion lost his glasses and May had to get into the act, because she is starved for attention. This episode combined with Dions National failure, sent the train off the tracks.

There is a reason why Dion is gone and why Harper was able to stack the Senate unchallenged.

"There is something wrong when the coalition is not supported by the very voters who elected LPC and NDP MPs."

Again, please send me just one link that specifically describes the election where "voters didn't support the coalition."

You can't do it, as it never happened.

One of the biggest problems with "progressives" such as yourselves is that you allow the Tories to tell you what to think. At the slightest whiff of challenge by the other side via an onslaught of biased news stories, you fold like a house of cards.

No way would I EVER allow "public opinion" as reported by our yellow and biased MS Media to tell me that "the majority of anti-Tory Canadians do NOT support the coalition," and use that as the basis for my opinion.

Do you not understand that polls are almost always skewed on behalf of vested, political interests? Please desist from using them as your raison d'etre for condemning the most logical, legal action the progressive wing has recently undertaken - unification, at last.

You don't need the media to see that the Liberals have left the building.

Nor do you need the media to tell you that being the only ones left at the altar is a problem.

But the media remains a tool-- one that is often hostile but still relied on by many and if you don't use it to the best degree you can, you will fail. Blaiming an unfriendly media is a loser' game - there are times when the left can get good press so even with a media that is unfriendly this current situation where the NDP looks irrelevant as we discuss a budget is avoidable.