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Soon I will be facing this issue from the side of a sensei...You will always have a sex dissatisfied because you can never fully have a utopia of the sexes, blending the sexes as one.... My solution is to separate the sexes in their own classes, only to bring them together occasional for the benefit of each other's practice. Will it work, I think so. Because the sexes naturally do separate on their own

You will always have a sex (sic) - gender that is - dissatisfied - HOW? In what sense can this be? Genders "naturally do separate"? Not in the world I live in...be it work, social life, family, close friends, acquaintances, grocery clerks, whatever, I have never had gender make a difference in who I associate with and I don't see it for most of the people superficial or intimate with whom I associate in most of these quotidian interactions.

I for one would never choose to train only with women any more than I would train only with tall people, one armed people, or Chicanos. Makes absolutely no sense to me. Humanity is humanity.
And in a martial arts context, the wider the variety of training partners, the better. Bring them on!

I don't know Tomiki aikido, and I don't know how aikido competitions are organised, but this article raised a BIG QUESTION MARK for me:

If, as we all are supposed to think,
a) female aikido is NOT different from male aikido at an advanced level
b) strength does not make a difference,

then WHY is there a women's randori and a men's randori?
If we can all attain the same skills, regardless from sex & age, there should only be ONE randori. If a women never wins, then this would simply mean that we are not so good. Maybe because there are not so many women taking Tomiki aikido, maybe because there are not so many women interested in competition, but maybe also because we simply don't reach the same level of skill...but IF a woman wins a mixed randori, then she would know that she is REALLY the best, and not ONLY the best woman.

It reminds me of chess competition. Everyone would agree (or, if he doesn't, gets labeled as a chauvinist) that women have the same intellectual capacities as men. So WHY on earth is there a separate chess competition for men and women? This is very, very insulting. What is even worse, is the fact that if there were not, the world champions still would only be men....

Concerning the soft attacks and soft defenses many people think are appropriate to apply on women - I think this is also an issue of getting the appropriate answer to your attack. When a woman (or a slender/ frail/ shy guy) attacks like a butterfly, she wouldn't get some thundering direct irimi nage as an answer. If she or he is a beginner and attacks like a berserk, you'd still take the berserk down as gently as you can. If you train with someone you don't know at a seminar, you'd start more gently and speed up after a time if you think it is possible.

But beginners, also the small and frail ones, get more confident after a time. Maybe it takes more time for many women, and less time for many men. We had one of those butterfly uke girls, who, after being promoted to 4th kyu, discovered that she could attack, that she could resist, and that she could take a fall. Everyone treated her very gently before, but now as she changed her attitude, her partners also treat her differently, taking her more seriously.

You will always have a sex dissatisfied because you can never fully have a utopia of the sexes, blending the sexes as one.

Not painting a dystopian picture, but you will always have differences because of the sexes are different and that means needs and expectations are wholly different based on biology. A force that can't be defeated. My solution is to separate the sexes in their own classes, only to bring them together occasional for the benefit of each other's practice.

You will always have students dissatisfied.

If you teach one way, more men then women will be dissatisfied. If you teach another, the other way around.

One way of teaching and approaching training will appeal young people. Other ways will be more suitable for older students.

Some ways will appeal to people who want physical work out, who don't think training is training unless they feel exhausted after class. Other types of training will have appeal to technique geeks, who can linger on technical details forever and completely ignore fitness issues.

By all means, do create your two kinds of classes. But if you label them "for women" and "for men" -- or "people under 45" and "people over 45" - you will loose all those students who would have liked the other class better...

As people already have said, the difference in the sexes is not as big as we tend to think. But we always enhance it, someteims even create it, by silk gloving the women and sometimes having more "macho" expectations on the males.

When this discussion comes up there's always the guys who say "oh, but the women WANT it more delicate, it is obvious from how they attack". But they seldom ask themselves who really got the delicate ball rolling - if they possibly had a part in it, too.

I would certainly never join a dojo that has separate women's classes because a male teacher think we are so different. The odds are I won't learn much there. You'll keep the sissies... those who want to learn will go elsewhere. OTOH there are plenty of reasons for doing aikido. Wanting to learn is just one of them. So if your sissy women's classes will pay your rent *shrug*

I would hate to have to be seperated from my fellow female Aikidoka's. They bring the testosterone level in my sausageparty dojo down a few pegs. It's really nice when you're partner is totally focused on getting the technique right, rather than forcing you to the ground regardless of how they do so.

Observing female Aikidoka's will help you figure out how to properly train. I've noticed several things our girls do that has helped me better my own techniques (such as how pulling the arm in shihonage is useless - you push instead). I feel that with some of the guys, it's just a wrestling match on most days, and not very productive. Only way we can tell we're doing it wrong is if sensei tells us or we're too tired to use brute force. With girls, they generally can't force it, so they'll quickly develop all the right concepts and techniques to make their Aikido work. I feel that this is real Aikido. If we try to muscle people around, then we might as well go learn another martial art.

The problem is, the girls tend to be held back by years and years of BS telling them to be meek and afraid of pain and violence of all forms. I like a girl that can punch a would-be rapist out with a smile (come on, I can't be the only one), and I hate the fact that some the girls I meet would tell me horror stories of guys dragging them by the wrist and they're just too afriad to even resist. Don't be afraid, and don't take it! If you don't like to have other people force their will onto you, then do something about it like I did: train Aikido seriously and become stronger, so that you can have a say even with unreasonable people!

So, in regards to OP, I will slam a girl into the tatami as hard and fast as she want it (hey wait... )

I don't know Tomiki aikido, and I don't know how aikido competitions are organised, but this article raised a BIG QUESTION MARK for me:

If, as we all are supposed to think,
a) female aikido is NOT different from male aikido at an advanced level
b) strength does not make a difference,

then WHY is there a women's randori and a men's randori?
If we can all attain the same skills, regardless from sex & age, there should only be ONE randori. If a women never wins, then this would simply mean that we are not so good. Maybe because there are not so many women taking Tomiki aikido, maybe because there are not so many women interested in competition, but maybe also because we simply don't reach the same level of skill...but IF a woman wins a mixed randori, then she would know that she is REALLY the best, and not ONLY the best woman.

Best regards,

Eva

First I would like to apologize if you feel offended. In Tomiki Aikido we have a great respect for the skill of women but there is a difference between men and women.

What is the difference between male and female tennis? Have a good look.
What is the difference between male and female judo competition?
In general women cannot win a match from men! Why? Because we know this from experience. Of course there are women who can compete very well and win from men. But when you reach the top level players, men will win. We can elaborate on why men will win in gereral, but I think this thread is not about competition.
BTW many women are very competitive :-) from our experience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP6Toa617RY
Competition in Tomiki's Aikido is only a small part what we do in our training. And the purpose is to test your ego. If you enter a competition for winning you will lose, even if you win the match.
If you lose your match, but you had the chance to apply a perfect waza, you win even if you lose the match.
The difference between male and female aikido at a high level is also present. The body of a man and women is different, so the physical expression will be different. But if you talk about "aiki", this is a different story, because we talk about manipulating energie and the relationship between yn and yo. And other people can elaborate about this item much better.

Imaizumi Sensei's first student, Donna Carlson, is one of the unknown, female pioneers of Aikido in the US. She is in her mid seventies. She still trains. Many years ago, I nicknamed her the Dojo Dominatrix . Regardless of how much testosterone the guys feel like they need to display, she can shut their techniques down in a NYC second. She will complain about how sore she feels and when you attack her, you suddenly find yourself on the ground.

I seek her out, every time I am there. I have learned so much from her and still do. People who take the mistaken approach to thinking that gender is major criteria in martial arts effectiveness have a lot to learn. It never ceases to amaze me how many men will not work with her, or Sensei's wife (who also can crush you) because of their "delicate egos."

We are all different. The degree to which we allow those differences to limit our training, is the degree to which we will inhibit our learning. It is more important to me to work well with my partners so that we both learn, rather than become hung up on the stuff that really does not help our training all that much.

We had one of those butterfly uke girls, who, after being promoted to 4th kyu, discovered that she could attack, that she could resist, and that she could take a fall. Everyone treated her very gently before, but now as she changed her attitude, her partners also treat her differently, taking her more seriously.

I loved your response, Eva. I wish I could learn more about how to attack and resist, and fall. I agree that it is my fault that others treat me very gently because I usually give them intimidated looks when I don't know how to fall, especially break falls. I'm working on putting a poker face on when practicing.

I don't think there is any real gender issue. Some women like to train harder and some men are frail and can't handle rough play. Especially in the early days of training. In my dojo we have a nice mix of guys and gals and there is definitely no different treatment between males and females. Each individual is given what they need for their individual training. You really do not want to handle a brand new person up to your more advanced level be they a guy or a girl. If you want to play a bit harder ask your seniors, don't expect it form your juniors. And don't be afraid to tell the boys that they are not doing you any favors by going easy on you because of your being a girl.

Remember that just as much as girls are conditioned never to be violent never to hit never to fight back so boys are also conditioned never to hit a girl or be rough with a girl and doing so even in the dojo is not always easy for them.

I like to be thrown fast and pinned hard sometimes. No one in my dojo has a problem with fulfilling that request. Others in my dojo require gentler handling. I don't have a problem with that either.

In my experience there's a difference between dojos that have a stable and fairly large portion of female practitioners, say 25-30%. There gender quickly stops mattering so much. Some newbies behave strangely towards women but after a while in a dojo which lots of female dojo mates and some female teachers (some of which very good, definately not appointed for "equality reasons") they too forget about thinking so much about gender.

But in a dojo where the women are few and even fewer stay, this stage is not reached. As a result, you are always "female aikidoka" first and foremost. Not "an aikidoka".

We are all different. The degree to which we allow those differences to limit our training, is the degree to which we will inhibit our learning. It is more important to me to work well with my partners so that we both learn, rather than become hung up on the stuff that really does not help our training all that much.

Short version: what he said.

Long version:
"If men situations as real, they are real in their consequences." - from sociology, the Thomas theorem. This is the theorem that underlies the self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are convinced that your training partner, by virtue of his or her gender, will have certain predispositions, you will train in such a way that encourages them to act within those predispositions. Maybe you're completely wrong. Maybe you're at least partly right. But by reinforcing a predisposition, you're making it harder for your partner to behave any other way. You are, in part, creating a reality that supports your beliefs, and limiting your partner's ability to be anything else.

It's very hard to get people to understand just how limiting this is, unless they've been on the receiving end of it. When you labor under the restrictions of other people's belief in your (in)ability, it's like running a race with an invisible 40-pound sack of sand on your back. Some, a few, are perceptive, can see its effects and extrapolate its existence even if they don't feel it themselves. Most people will deny that that sack of sand exists. Then your "limitations" get explained as a natural inferiority. It's sort of soft-sell bigotry.

I think this is a big part of your problem. The teaching in a traditional aikido dojo is not oriented toward modern street self-defense. Therefore, there's a disconnect between the aikido you are trying to perform and the aikido your instructor is teaching. In a sense, you and your partners are practicing different martial arts. No wonder you're frustrated.

I hear what everyone is saying, and being opened minded and I am not foolish to readily dismiss anyone's opinion. Let's face it, am new to this looking for what is best for the students. I figure from the feedback I get surveying people I know, having a finger on the pulse of society it might be useful to have separated classes because biologically, physically and psychologically there is a difference between the sexes. Having a finger on Aikido's community is also important to me. Factually, there are less women in Aikido. I read though some of the threads here that discuss the low numbers of women participating in Aikido to give me insight as why that occurs. I have read other discussion from the voices of other women in regard to the upside and downside of Aikido for them.

One of the yoga places have only men and women yoga. The local commercial gyms have classes that target men and women separately. There are lots of women only clubs in town, the self defense shooting gun club for women is very popular. There are several successful all women martial arts classes and self defense programs too doing well.

From all that I see a pattern emerging, women and men want different things from their activities and don't necessarily want to mix gender. I would be foolish to over look what these things say about society. After all, I want to give my students an experience they are comfortable in. I don't want women feeling uncomfortable joining my school, especially if they have had a previous bad experience with men. I don't want women feeling as if they will experience a threat of sexual harassment, sexism or insults, and if those injustices happen to occur, they feel powerless with no voice. I certainly don't 't want them to think they will end up being bullied/dominated by men. If a woman feels she can wheel all that testosterone coming off new students or other students. I am not a sensei who is going to restrict a women from men or her power to choose what is best for her.

I guess then it will be depend on the make up of the students. Depending on their personalities and needs,how they feel can allow me to navigate a decision to offer different class for women and men, or not. I am going to separate the ages and have limits on age. There will be kids classes with age limits. Adult classes will exist too. That is a good rule of thumb, a good standard as well.

I figure from the feedback I get surveying people I know, having a finger on the pulse of society it might be useful to have separated classes because biologically, physically and psychologically there is a difference between the sexes.

Hi Jackie,

I think people are reacting to two things in that assertion:

1)It's a generalization that might be useful in some situations, but is a lot less useful (and sometimes actively harmful) in situations that always come down to the individual, such as aikido training. A generalization about what women or men are like is bound to fail frequently on the individual level; therefore, while it might possibly be a valid generalization, is it really helpful as a basis for teaching aikido?

2)Generalizations like this have a long history of being used proscriptively and with an agenda, rather than with some intelligence, sensitivity, awareness and an honest and sincere wish to provide all people with an equal opportunity to learn. Think of the results of generalizations like "black people can't swim well" and "women and girls aren't good at math". Now think of being a person who had to struggle to get the opportunity to learn that isn't being afforded to you because someone believes that generalization.

Quote:

Jackie Adams wrote:

One of the yoga places have only men and women yoga. The local commercial gyms have classes that target men and women separately. There are lots of women only clubs in town, the self defense shooting gun club for women is very popular. There are several successful all women martial arts classes and self defense programs too doing well.

From all that I see a pattern emerging, women and men want different things from their activities and don't necessarily want to mix gender.

I disagree that this conclusion follows from those observations. But if women and men do indeed not want to mix gender, why is that?

Mind you, I'm not arguing against separate classes. I'm saying that if separate classes are created for the wrong set of reasons or because of incorrect assumptions, the effort to produce a better learning environment for the students will painfully backfire.

Quote:

Jackie Adams wrote:

I would be foolish to over look what these things say about society. After all, I want to give my students an experience they are comfortable in. I don't want women feeling uncomfortable joining my school, especially if they have had a previous bad experience with men. I don't want women feeling as if they will experience a threat of sexual harassment, sexism or insults, and if those injustices happen to occur, they feel powerless with no voice. I certainly don't 't want them to think they will end up being bullied/dominated by men. If a woman feels she can wheel all that testosterone coming off new students or other students. I am not a sensei who is going to restrict a women from men or her power to choose what is best for her.

Not sure what "wheel" means here, but if your school reeks of testosterone, doesn't it make sense to fix that problem rather than accommodate it and indulge it? If you create a class for women because you accept that "boys will be boys", and what boys will be is a bunch of mindless hormone-driven lunkheads, is anyone better off, or has the problem just been fed and strengthened?

We have one class per wk that has ended up sort of randomly being mostly fit fast young men (teens to early 20s). As a middle aged woman I love dropping in on it at least a couple if times a month and early on asked the instructor to use me as demo uke part of the time. They get to see that I am not that fragile even though I have a couple of adaptations I ask them to make and they get to trsin with someone insisting on slow precise rechnique

When I first started training, all the senpei in my dojo were very nice and gentle to me. But I wasn't aware of that, until that one guy joined us from other dojo.

However, since I'm tiny in size, most students in my dojo are very gentle to me, they don't want to hurt me. But this is hindering my progress. I think it is a waste of time dancing with people on the mat.

Recently, I started training with new beginners. There are several girls and one guy. I was very gentle with the girls, but almost in full strength to the guy.

P.S. as for the safety of beginner ukes, I thought instructors need to do more in this area.

First off, as a blue belt (usually 4th or 5th kyu in most places I've trained) you should not be blaming you sensei for you inability to work with newcomers. That is something you have to develop and yes, it is very hard to figure out!

Now, the basic problem I see here is this: You are whining that people don't throw you hard because you are female YET you to the same other woman. You think that behavior hurts women (lessens their technique/ makes it less of a self-defense class) yet you willing do it to others. Seems like hypocrisy to me.

I'm avoiding the 'are woman as good as men' argument completely; its bs and I am not going to give it credit by arguing against it.

On the training aspect, I have a lot of experience as a female athlete and aikidoka so I'll speak there. First off, if you want people to throw you hard, attack hard. A LOT of ukemi is how much energy you put into; that being said people can be malicious and make you take a breakfall. Usually the later is considered 'being rough' and is what females feel they are missing.

I've found a very, very simple solution to this problem. You want thrown hard? Well, make people realize your attack is real and they have to deal with you or they will get hurt. Yes, that can be an easy recipe for an injury so start off slow. Learn to punch. Not just theoretically, I mean find a punching bag and lay into it.

When it comes to training newbies, I obviously do not suggest you punch them in the face at full force. Judge them by their size and personality more than gender. Boys and girls that don't come in knowing how to punch get a crash course with me for example. But they all get reminded if I could start harvesting organs from them. (My main thing I try to install is not to lean over someone you just threw. I kick very well after playing soccer for years; I'm sure other attackers can too.)

Sure I'm rough as hell on the new kids- I'm that way with everyone and I want the same back. At the same time, I'm very social and always make sure to tell them after class that they did well (if they did) or at least worked hard. And it makes me proud when a Sensei complements them on having their hands active on day one and they can say, "She showed me that."

I feel like I am helping them out rather than handicapping them by their gender.

One of the yoga places have only men and women yoga. The local commercial gyms have classes that target men and women separately. There are lots of women only clubs in town, the self defense shooting gun club for women is very popular. There are several successful all women martial arts classes and self defense programs too doing well.

I am honestly shocked at this idea. As for the women's only clubs, I have seen the so called self defense courses offered at our local Y, and I personally find them to be a horrible idea all around. Most of what I see is a couple hours a week for a month and a lot of women with a very high level of unfounded confidence that will quickly crumble if they ever actually need to fight their way out of a situation. And while I'm not sure what martial arts schools have martial arts for women only, I'd be very curious to see that lineage.

Aikido, in my understanding, is a long term study of self improvement, physically, martially, and spiritually. All of these are linked, and I can not be a good Aikidoka and work only on physical self improvement without also martial and spiritual self improvement. Martially, if the only people I am practiced at defending against are women, how on earth am I going to learn how to adapt a technique to that 6"5" 300 lb rapist who actually means to hurt me? Spiritually, we are all the same. If I deliberately exclude contact with half the human race, spiritual self improvement turns into self delusion. And as far as physically goes, no, I'm not in competition with any of the men I train with, but if my only goal is to get buff, I'm better off running laps and lifting weights solo anyway.

As far as the female comfort zone goes, personally I think women should spend more time around the men in my organization at least. Knowing that there are decent men out in the world who are kind and would do anything if you need assistance is just as important as knowing how to break the wrist of the scumbag who just pulled a knife on you.

I try to take care of my training partners, regardless of gender. If they are fairly new, I will try to practice at their level and make sure I'm not throwing too hard or too softly unless they tell me differently. I trained last night with a senior who told me before we engaged that he didn't want to take any breakfalls because his hip was hurting him and he wanted to take care. I scaled back my technique to make sure he'd be there tomorrow evening for class. Gender is largely irrelevant in my view, but respect and care for my partners is paramount.

I think this will be my last post here, I need now to focus on some important details before I officially open my doors within the next few months. I am excited to say the least.

For those who feel there are generalization in play, and taking it levels ridiculously beyond what my concerns are, like to the level of racism, I offer you this. Separating races as suggested isn't what I am doing, that is flat out offensive. I don't feel one race is superior or inferior to another hence against mixing races.

The objective of my school is to offer a women only classes not because women are inferior to men. That too is equalling offensive. My mission is to run a successful school base on my business success. For a number of years, the simple key to my success was to offer the customer what they wanted. Understand the target market. Observe the market trends. Deliver the good or service that the customer wants. Nothing else. Why reinvent the wheel and make the learning curve any steeper than it should be.

My daughter is a professional educator, who started out in secondary teaching, and moved to shaping education by earning a Ph.D in education offers a valuable insight into learning. Ae proper learning environment is key to success. Years in the dojo tells me often the importance of a good learning environment has on learning and progression of skill sets.

If women will learn Aikido better without men around then that is what I will offer. My dojo will offer separate classes for both men and women. Research shows the benefit of having women's only classes. if it is something women want. Further research in psychology and education tells us women have differences in approach to learning, learning itself, and requirements of learning than men. Just as any other goods or service. I do consider a mixed adult class, fully aware there is no such thing as androgyny. Even if I do pretend androgyny does exists, the students will shatter my rose colored glasses in a heart beat.

The demand of society, as a market is what will dictate my dojo offering women or men's classes. No different then the model fitness centers follow. Having separate class is a matter of economics 101. I must cater to the market. It is no different than having kids and adult classes, more variety and diversity offered to fit the needs of the customer /new and potential students. I am confident, I am on the right track. My dojo will be a success with my current philosophy and model. One based on the research, and models of other like business success having the same philosophy and model.

I see no reason not to give people choice in where they train, in midst of other schools not providing choice and flexibility. I am not comfortable with the stringent attitude of some sensei's that boarder on dictatorship. Fact of the matter is, a dojo is a business. Debts need to be met to provide the students with a good place to train.

Tagging on one last thought. My society is a consumer society, we want choices. Top business know there is a difference between men and women, business from everything form personal items, foods, to cars. Why they know this, why is there products that target men and women with different products or labeled products? It is because decades of market research tells them so. As well as any business with a past product history tells them so.

Lots of strong pointers favor offering separate gender classes. I am going with the research and proven models. I am aware of other concerns and criticism in not offering a singular class for both sexes. When it comes to offering to the public a diverse Aikido school, those concern and criticism issues don't stand as important.

If women will learn Aikido better without men around then that is what I will offer. My dojo will offer separate classes for both men and women. Research shows the benefit of having women's only classes. .

Thank you, I feel confident in using a business model for my school vs. other models. The value of the school will not be measure on a monetary scale. I will retain the Aikido philosophy that has made Aikido popular. I will retain many of the Japanese qualities that make Aikido as a martial art attractive. Having enough money the value will being in the success of the dojo. A dojo that will offer the community to enjoy Aikido. To benefit from the experiences Aikido offers.

The other thing is I will be charging a nominal monthly fee enough to keep the preverbal lights on. Free classes, for some reason, have less value than classes who charge. Also, charging a nominal monthly fee based on a use propriety model, where the take an active part in keep the doors open gives them a sense of ownership as well as stewardship. My interest in opening a school is not for personal financial gain as some would suspect. The amount of income Aikido Senseis get from professionally teaching is not enough for me to take it as a serious income.

Yes, talk to successful marketing firms, and business, go to their luncheons and other events.Check out business college courses. Talk to local business owners. Use Google. Take the view of a new entrepreneur in looking for recourses to help you. That is what I did. There is a sea of resources and research out there to help you. Am not a scholar, so I didn't keep track of all the books and material I also read on marketing and successful business practices over the years. There are lots of good books on marketing and advertising out there, too many to mention. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.