Hi All,Just processing through the statement that there are no victims and would appreciate feedback.

1) Does the feeling of victimization correlate to herd and individual evolutionary states but not to the spiritual evolutionary state?

a) The herd state, presumably, would result not so much in feelings of personal victimization so much as identifying with the victimization of the group with which one identifies....?

b) The individual state, presumably, would manifest as feelings of personal victimization....?

c) As such, would feelings of victimization be an indicator of evolutionary state?

2) Does the feeling of victimization arise from experiences of emotional lack and the as-yet developed skills/tools/etc. to work with that?

a) The thought here is as follows: Children come in with specific needs. Some needs will be met. Others will not. A person in a spiritual evolutionary state, if I am understanding correctly, will be able to adjust more quickly and skillfully to this lack. But others in the herd and individual states will take longer. The feelings of victimization will be the first impetus to growth, but it might take awhile to figure out that growth and self-nurturance are the only real ways to resolve one's unmet needs.

3) Finally, just wondering about astrological counselling approaches to victim consciousness. I am thinking hear of approaches such as that espoused by Carl Rogers - empathy/unconditional positive regard/genuineness - allowing the person to finally integrate that, yes, these things did happen, these needs were not met.... thus, freeing them to move beyond.

Hey Ellen, I thought I'd share from my own experience. Thanks for asking.

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1) Does the feeling of victimization correlate to herd and individual evolutionary states but not to the spiritual evolutionary state?

a) The herd state, presumably, would result not so much in feelings of personal victimization so much as identifying with the victimization of the group with which one identifies....?

I'd say personal feelings victimization would also definitely occur. At this state, there may be less overall awareness as to how to deal with/understand the nature of the feelings of victimization.

b) The individual state, presumably, would manifest as feelings of personal victimization....?

c) As such, would feelings of victimization be an indicator of evolutionary state?

I've noticed that victimization tends to be a piscean or scorpio thing- especially when those two archetypes are combined.

I do feel that as a soul evolves, there is less of a tendency to identify with being a victim, but not necessarily the cessation of feeling like one. In the spiritual state, a person may not consciously identify as a victim- however their actions may imply a "victim consciousness" that they may not be aware of. And in fact in their own spiritual evolution, realizing those feelings and healing from them, become the work.

(i.e. I have a friend who I feel is in first stage spiritual. She is a devotee of Amma- really kind and giving soul. She however has had a strong tendency to get involved in relationships in which she gets taken advantage of by men who try to posses her. She has Neptune in Sag in the 8th squaring her north node in virgo. So for her- her own evolution through the spiritual state is, for a time, enacted by BECOMING angry through the realization of feeling like a victim- which is a step towards doing the whole Virgo discernment thing. Her issue isn't being an outward victim- but rather the judgments that she has on her actual feelings of being one (because she intellectually understands that she isn't a victim.)

So I don't think feelings of victimization imply evolutionary state- but rather the relationship one has to their feelings of victimization seems to be key.

2) Does the feeling of victimization arise from experiences of emotional lack and the as-yet developed skills/tools/etc. to work with that?

a) The thought here is as follows: Children come in with specific needs. Some needs will be met. Others will not. A person in a spiritual evolutionary state, if I am understanding correctly, will be able to adjust more quickly and skillfully to this lack. But others in the herd and individual states will take longer. The feelings of victimization will be the first impetus to growth, but it might take awhile to figure out that growth and self-nurturance are the only real ways to resolve one's unmet needs.

Lack is a Pluto Scorpio 8th house thing- the feeling of emotional lack eventually gives way to the desire to find what we feel we lack within. However, depending on one's evolutionary state- different measures will be taken to achieve that.

Adjusting to the feelings of lack will not be a quicker or slower process depending on one's evolutionary state. The difference lies is the WAYS and the TOOLS that are used to adjust and transmute. Truly resolving one's perceived unmet needs- doesn't happen for most people- even in the spiritual state. As a human being, this is something I've been accepting about myself...

3) Finally, just wondering about astrological counselling approaches to victim consciousness. I am thinking hear of approaches such as that espoused by Carl Rogers - empathy/unconditional positive regard/genuineness - allowing the person to finally integrate that, yes, these things did happen, these needs were not met.... thus, freeing them to move beyond.

Understanding, from an ea point of view WHY there exists a victim consciousness, and being able to explain that to a client is sooo healing. Personally, I am learning to rely on myself to just be present with my client, so i can sense what approach is the most appropriate to where they are at.

In all cases, I really agree with emphathy and unconditional love. Some people (at any evolutionary state) are addicted to being a victim and so, the best we can offer them is just out acceptance and love.

Hi All,Just processing through the statement that there are no victims and would appreciate feedback.

1) Does the feeling of victimization correlate to herd and individual evolutionary states but not to the spiritual evolutionary state?

I would say according my understanding of EA is that most all stages there can be victimization expect maybe 3rd spiritual and even then that could be the last separating desire of the soul to extinguish. But as Ari said its not the victimization per say that is the issue, its how a soul deals with these perceived victimization's. It seems to me the more evolved we get the more we see the perceived victimization in larger and larger context. Personally I don't think it means being so detached from your feelings that if someone hurts you don't feel the pain and suffering of this. Say I was 1st stage spiritual, living in Haiti, would I feel victimized by this most recent earthquake, yes, but seeing it larger and large context is what evolution is about. I don't think its about detaching and saying, OK everything happens for a reason and let divine will be thy will. I think even as we evolve we feel, suffer and get victimized. We still have our humanity as we evolve, it just that there are larger contexts to see these events in. I mean someone who is 1st stage spiritual might get victimized by a very conservative group of individuals how they deal with that is the evolution. I mean there are very evolved people who are deeply wounded and have been victimized, very legitimately, but once again how they deal with it is what the evolution is about.

a) The herd state, presumably, would result not so much in feelings of personal victimization so much as identifying with the victimization of the group with which one identifies....?

Yes and no, the group is you personally in herd state.

b) The individual state, presumably, would manifest as feelings of personal victimization....?

I would think both here too. In individuate, there can be scapegoating that occurs, part of the archetype of Aquarius, which is the indivuated state we find detachment, trauma and dissociation. Part of Aquarius is about being detached from the group, so yes, there can be a personal victimization, but that can be connected to a group of like-minded individuals. A group of radical terrorists, personally feel victimized; they would also feel like their group was being victimized, so its both.

c) As such, would feelings of victimization be an indicator of evolutionary state?

I don't think so, once again its how one deals with what has been presented in ones life.

2) Does the feeling of victimization arise from experiences of emotional lack and the as-yet developed skills/tools/etc. to work with that?

I would think it's a little more complex than just feeling emotional lack. I know in my own case, per past life scenario, being raped and tortured, is not about feeling emotional lack, its about being victimized. The trauma is lodged in the body itself, as we all know sometimes no amount of emotional food can be enough for someone in emotional trauma. The trauma of the victimization must be made conscious and then either relived as to release it from the physical body as well as the soul.

a) The thought here is as follows: Children come in with specific needs. Some needs will be met. Others will not. A person in a spiritual evolutionary state, if I am understanding correctly, will be able to adjust more quickly and skillfully to this lack. But others in the herd and individual states will take longer. The feelings of victimization will be the first impetus to growth, but it might take awhile to figure out that growth and self-nurturance are the only real ways to resolve one's unmet needs.

One level you are right, but once again its not that cut and dry... Lack is a Virgo phenomena, not Scorpio. the 8th house 2nd house dynamic is symbolic of power/powerlessness.. which can lead to victimization but not always. 12/6 11/5 can symbolize victimization...

3) Finally, just wondering about astrological counselling approaches to victim consciousness. I am thinking hear of approaches such as that espoused by Carl Rogers - empathy/unconditional positive regard/genuineness - allowing the person to finally integrate that, yes, these things did happen, these needs were not met.... thus, freeing them to move beyond.

Boy there are so many, I have a totally victimized chart, so I have done traditional psychotherapy, gestalt body work, past life work, psychotropic drugs, shamanistic healing, sexual healing, psychics surgery, you name it... I still think these things need lots of different healing modalities. The work I have done with Patricia Walsh ( Past life work) has been totally helpful on many different levels.

I think deep feeling of being victimized need lots of different solutions. I don't think just one modality works. say just doing past life body work or just doing empathy therapy is what really gets rid of the feelings, its more complicated than that. I have heard many different ideas from so many different people. What I know has worked for me is a variety of healing modalities. But people are different and different people need different things, and once again that is the evolution, knowing what works for you. But the empathy approach does help, but then again someone who is really stuck, its like trying to feed a bottomless pit.

I think even in the spiritual state there can be a feeling of victimization in the sense that one can feel lost or betrayed and the Source can be blamed for those feelings. Even Jesus asked, 'god why have you forsaken me?' Maybe that is not what is meant by Ellen as 'victimization', however clearly he felt abandoned and he was in despair and suffering and he was the ultimate scapegoat.

As for counselling - just listening and being receptive is amazingly helpful. People frequently just need to talk and their own intuition can kick into gear. Secondly, in psychiatry there is a common and easy technique - you reinforce what is being said and most of the time the person will then be the one to question themselves. It's interesting. They say 'something' and you say, 'yes' agree, etc. simply. Much of the time they will then say, 'well, but,' and contradict themselves - frequently if you prod or question they will get defensive and only react. People need and want a safe environment.

good point, the entire Virgo/Pisces era has been plagued by a victimhood consciousness.. spirituality was defined by ones ability to tolerate suffering.... the entire sado/ maschosisit paradigm... goodness I am sure we could go on for days about that. It does seem to me that Christ carried his scapegoat with consciousness. He sufferred greatly, yes but was he a victim within himself..... that I don't know...

JWG used to teach that all Souls are responsible for the lives that they create from life to life. From that point of view he would then say 'that there are no victims'. He would also teach the utter importance of working with clients who have have felt victimized in the sense of not hammering them over the head with words like 'there are no victims, you are responsible for what you have felt victimized by'. He would also teach that everything is relative, even the feelings of being victimized. For example, say a women gets brutally raped. And from the current life point of view that women had done nothing that could be interpreted or perceived as her being responsible for the rape. So, from this life's point of view, this women could easily and rightly be perceived as being a victim of that rape. Yet, if one could see the totality of that women's prior lives, the reasons or causes for the current life could be seen. And those reasons are not just the simplistic stuff like she had raped someone in another life and, therefore, that's the reason that she created the rape in the current life: karma. That may, indeed, be one possible cause, but from the point of view of any given Soul's individual past life context, there can an incredible amount of reasons or causes that have lead to the current life rape. The various evolutionary conditions have nothing to do with the idea and perception of victimization. This is a cultural/ religious issue that spans all evolutionary conditions depending on the nature of the culture/ religion that the Soul decided to be born into in any given life. And, thus, a function of conditioning depending on that culture/ religion. In other words, there are , and have been, many other cultures/ ways of understanding life that had no idea or conception of being a victim at all because, in those cultures/ ways of understanding life, all Souls are responsible for what they create. This of course references the NATURAL LAW of cause and effect. Yet it is critical when working with clients, or ourselves, who have been victimized from the point of view of their , our , current life to exercise great compassion and understanding. One of the things that JWG taught when working with victimized clients is to ask them if they wanted to know that prior life causes that exist within them self that are in fact responsible for the current life circumstances that have lead to the event in which they have victimized. And, if that answer is yes, then to gently to do so . And, if not, to help that client deal with the effects of the event in which they have felt victimized by.

Just watching again the JWG dvd course where he is talking about virgo. In that class, he makes it clear, especially in this culture(america-western) to not use the word "victim" with a client/in councel. In light of the above posts, it is clear that we can address the experience of victimization in a healing way, but to be so careful as to not reinforce the consciousness of "yes, I am a victim", which leaves no room for the ego ownership of the evolutionary necessity of the experience.

I know I would not use the word victim to describe a client at the least I have never up to now. I think as I keep saying it is complicated. Like Jeffrey says with the word evil, people are afraid to use the word.. I just think speaking in the theoretical is complicated. In working with the many past life regressions that I have participated in and observed, when some one is re-living a scene when they are being brutally raped and abused, feeling of victimization do come up, skirtting around the word seems very unrealistic. Part of getting rid of the victim consciousness which is so prevalent is to purge the feelings (of victimazation) and expand the consciousness around the event. As Rad said in his example of a woman being raped.

It just seems very simple to say try not to use the word, that feels really dismissive. Using the quintessential EA modality of Observation and correlation is what is called for is intuition.. A practitioner must be able to intuit, when it would be useful to call victimization for what it is both positive and negative....

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for responding. I don't have internet access at home so it will take me awhile to read through everyone's responses, but I'm definitely paying attention!

Ari and PamS,

But as Ari said its not the victimization per say that is the issue, its how a soul deals with these perceived victimization's.

Thanks so much for this distinction. One of the things that seemed to be tripping me up was the notion that there are no victims (literal). Now I would say that there ARE victims - African Americans were denied rights, glbt people are denied rights, children are molested/abused/etc, people ARE swindled, etc etc - but that the point is not about the victimization but about one's response to it and how one works with it - as an opportunity for self-knowledge and growth, and, it would seem, in some cases, as an impetus for social transformation (MLK, Jr., Ghandi, etc). In my own case, I am gay and I have always experienced deep wounding in this regard (social outcast, parental rejection, etc - 5th house Saturn in Aquarius square 8th house Moon in Taurus) and have spent much of my life acting from anger and feeling in some way or another sorry for myself (2nd house Neptune in Scorpio fills out the t-square). But I now understand that it's up to me to provide myself with the love and nurturing that family and society were unable to give me and to do that from a place of deep understanding, love and nurturing for myself AND OTHERS, not from a place of angry rebellion. The wounding, in a sense, was the finger pointing the way. I'll end it there. Looking forward to reading everyone's responses.

In light of the above posts, it is clear that we can address the experience of victimization in a healing way, but to be so careful as to not reinforce the consciousness of "yes, I am a victim", which leaves no room for the ego ownership of the evolutionary necessity of the experience.

This, to me, seems like THE key with regard to the astrologer-client relationship, and somewhat of a fine line. I suspect (I do not have a practice at this time) that the more we recognize and actively work constructively with the places within ourselves where we feel victimized, the better able we are able to navigate this with the client. Perhaps technique is only as good as self-awareness allows.

good point, the entire Virgo/Pisces era has been plagued by a victimhood consciousness.. spirituality was defined by ones ability to tolerate suffering.... Pam

Hmmm.. interesting. I was at a talk awhile back in which the speaker made the observation that we are in and have been in for a century or so a wave of "rights" movements - labor rights, women's rights, civil rights, gay rights, animal rights, eco-rights, etc (ie, suffering is no longer tolerated). It seems to me that a push for rights happens in response to a recognition of victimization. Thinking about this in terms of evolution, perhaps the experience of victimization is part of the process towards a new paradigm... So, in other words, both individually and collectively we are having to learn to 1) recognize our suffering for what it is (rather than practicing the art of denial) and 2) work with it in empowering (for self and others) ways, ie, to learn to transmute it rather than tolerate it. Perhaps it is more growth-producing/promoting at this point in our evolution to do so. Just a thought. Hope I haven't gotten too far off the thread...

Hmmm.. interesting. I was at a talk awhile back in which the speaker made the observation that we are in and have been in for a century or so a wave of "rights" movements - labor rights, women's rights, civil rights, gay rights, animal rights, eco-rights, etc (ie, suffering is no longer tolerated). It seems to me that a push for rights happens in response to a recognition of victimization. Thinking about this in terms of evolution, perhaps the experience of victimization is part of the process towards a new paradigm... So, in other words, both individually and collectively we are having to learn to 1) recognize our suffering for what it is (rather than practicing the art of denial) and 2) work with it in empowering (for self and others) ways, ie, to learn to transmute it rather than tolerate it. Perhaps it is more growth-producing/promoting at this point in our evolution to do so. Just a thought. Hope I haven't gotten too far off the thread...

and yes ellen I agree with you, I do think that the astrological ages provide us with evolutionary tools.. and maybe just one of the Virgo/Pisces paradigm (in a western context) is to acknowledge the perceived victimization and the learn to progressivesly take more and more responsibility for ourselves. But first we need to acknowledge our unconscious feelings wether they be feelings of victimization etc and to evolve them into deeper and wider contexts.. I think it is a slow process. I also think its really big

I would say that the bottom line are desires that are ego driven, that are what in EA are termed 'separating' desires, they get so convoluted over time and within relationships, etc. over many lives. Evil influences us and attempts to maintain the separating desires and reinforce them, via many ways, but mainly through emotional darkness, despair, helplessness - victimization consciousness. The despair itself is a product of maintaining separating desires. I don't think though that these feelings 'vanish' or are even precisely 'purged' either. One can gain a higher degree of consciousness and responsibility for their own desires and thus action/reaction within the world and this creates, relatively, a perspective on those emotions - they are put in context.

When I had a reading with J.WolfGreen I think I asked how one could emotionally 'purge' these things, he said you could not - I think I got frustrated because that wasn't quite the word I meant. But, I think I understand what was meant. Your emotional experience will be with you and has value, there is no need or value in 'purging' it. The need is to adjust one's consciousness. Anyway - make sense?

I would say that the bottom line are desires that are ego driven, that are what in EA are termed 'separating' desires, they get so convoluted over time and within relationships, etc. over many lives. Evil influences us and attempts to maintain the separating desires and reinforce them, via many ways, but mainly through emotional darkness, despair, helplessness - victimization consciousness. The despair itself is a product of maintaining separating desires. I don't think though that these feelings 'vanish' or are even precisely 'purged' either. One can gain a higher degree of consciousness and responsibility for their own desires and thus action/reaction within the world and this creates, relatively, a perspective on those emotions - they are put in context.

When I had a reading with J.WolfGreen I think I asked how one could emotionally 'purge' these things, he said you could not - I think I got frustrated because that wasn't quite the word I meant. But, I think I understand what was meant. Your emotional experience will be with you and has value, there is no need or value in 'purging' it. The need is to adjust one's consciousness. Anyway - make sense?

Hi Lucius,

Yes, it makes sense. And thanks for bringing it back to EA proper. I am relatively new to EA and haven't studied evil as taught by JWG, but from my own experience, I would say that darkness, despair, etc., and the separating desires that precede these states, can sometimes have an evolutionary purpose. In my own case, I believe (I have not had a chart reading done) that, prior to this life, I was pretty well entrenched in the herd state and in entitlement. My feeling is that the only way I was going to get out of it was to be born a woman and to be born gay - an orientation pretty thoroughly rejected by the herd to which I belonged as a child growing up. Indeed, I so identified with the herd that I did not even allow myself to know that I was gay. And I certainly didn't allow myself to accept that I was female. The darkness and despair I experienced - the result of no longer feeling a part of the herd - was, in my opinion absolutely necessary as part of my evolutionary journey. The separating desires, I would say, were not in and of themselves evil, but, in this case, essential for growth. Perhaps evil, like victimization, has more to do with how we respond to/relate to the darkness...? My experience of victimization, I would say, had everything to do with this separation from the herd, or rather, my unhappy feelings about that - my clinging to the past. And whatever evil I committed through emotional states of anger/resentment/bitterness had more to do with my response to the darkness of separation, I think, than the states themselves.... Does this makes sense? Perhaps a reason why it would be a mistake to try to purge the emotional darkness is that, because we are always in process (growth mode) and not all knowing, there may come a time when, to further our evolution, we may need that darkness...........?