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sceptical, that recording is great. Don't remove it. That Georgia solo sounded fantastic! You'll have to explain that some more, like maybe show the chords, and some sample upper structures you're playing with.

Recording -- I just plugged in my H4 directly into the outs of the Yamaha P155. Yes there's reverb, to cover up the deficiencies of the piano. It just doesn't compare to the Steinway.

sceptical, I'm not too reliant on the shapes myself because I actually think of what it is, i.e. #9, b9 #11, b9, etc.

I've also come to realize this is something that I'm not doing with many progressions. I do know extended chords, but now I question if I really know what sounds good after a +4 or #11 chord, and can precede what type of 13 or aug chord. I think I've just been playing shapes for too long, and have neglected to expand the repertoire of possible shapes. Because yes, I can sit down and play through fake books, I can compose tunes, I can talk about the theory, BUT I'm coming to realize that talk is one thing, and deep understanding is another.

So, I'm back to the drawing board, and although a bit discouraged about where I find myself, I'm more excited now to work my way through standards and improvisations with a whole new set of expectations for myself.

It's both liberating and a bit debilitating though because now I am super conscious when I play about whether I am falling into old patterns, or really practicing and trying to expand my playing abilities.

Anyone else come to similar points in their development and care to share their stories?

sceptical, whatever you think you know, what came out of Georgia sounded fresh to me. So I was wondering what you were thinking when you were doing it. From what I gather from what you said before that your Jazz side was self-taught?

There's things you probably do that don't have a theory label but is the same sort of thing.

Because of the discussions in this thread, I focused today's practice on an Augmented triad shape, basically using augmented triads on my ii-V's. I practiced trying to use it on every ii-V I encountered.

I'll try to record what I accomplished. It's a different sound for sure and is one I've had in my theoretical vocabulary but not really utilized much. So intentional practice of this should really help.

I also tried integrating the diminished cycle triads that Beeboss introduced me to. This has some interesting modern sounds.

I have not tended to use shapes much when I play my solo lines but they are useful because it opens up the range of sounds, particularly when you use these shapes intervallicly.

I should talk about Intervallic playing. Because of my teacher's influence (Modern Jazz), I tend to play more intervallicly instead of the stepwise and chromatic movement more typical of bebop. I've been working on Chick Corea's Matrix, both technically and theoretically. Stylistically, I found Chick using a combination of intervallic playing (particularly quartal based shapes), and bebop style chromatics. It is sometimes hard to imagine his creativity when he recorded these masterful works at such a young age. It's totally inspiring.

There's a lot to learn in jazz. Although in theory it's all explainable as scales, it's different in execution and I'm enjoying the discovery of how some things are applied. I could probably write a Thesis on the little Chick-isms that one finds in his playing. If I can execute 1% of it, I'll be playing pretty well. I'm not trying to play Matrix at tempo. I'm analyzing it much more slowly. Although, admitedly I'm trying to execute the lines at tempo more as a technical exercise.

From Matrix, it's an easy jump to Chick's other tunes and apply some of the lines (which to me is not to copy the lick but to understand the concept). I might try a line and look at several variations.

BTW - it was from these forums that I got hooked on to studying Matrix...

Anyone else come to similar points in their development and care to share their stories?

Hi Sceptical,I know exactly what you mean. I always try to take the attitude that back to the drawing board is a good place to be because a re-assessment with always lead to a deeper understanding. For instance if you are bored using the same old chord shapes then that is the time to learn more about how to form new voicings, and then to integrate that into your playing. Harmony is limitless so if there is always somewhere further to go!One thing I have always found to be extremely beneficial in this situation is to write some arragements or reharms, stretching out harmonically on a given theme trying to incorporate some sounds that are new to me. Generate some voicings with some new techniques (slash chords for example, or voicings from new scales) and then reharm something that you already know using these new sounds.

It is important to write down the chords you discover and ponder long and hard about which one sounds right in each place, and why it may work there.This will not only improve your ability to generate interesting harmony but also do wonders for your ears.

Because of the discussions in this thread, I focused today's practice on an Augmented triad shape, basically using augmented triads on my ii-V's. I practiced trying to use it on every ii-V I encountered.

I am interested to hear how you approach this

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I also tried integrating the diminished cycle triads that Beeboss introduced me to. This has some interesting modern sounds.

Once you get these sounds in your ears you will hear them everywhere, in Corea and Bill Evans. Their use is limitless.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I have not tended to use shapes much when I play my solo lines but they are useful because it opens up the range of sounds, particularly when you use these shapes intervallicly.

I don't really follow you here -everything is a shape, every chord every arpeggio, every voicing. A shape is just a collection of notes. So you can't improvise without 'using shapes', even if you are thinking of them in terms of being scale patterns or 2 5 1 licks or whatever. If you are not conscious of using the notes you choose as shapes then it is certainly worth giving it a go and seeing where it leads. Any approach that opens up the possibilities of what to play can only be good.

Nice one on Dolphin dance, you have the difficult harmony of that tune well down.

I have not tended to use shapes much when I play my solo lines but they are useful because it opens up the range of sounds, particularly when you use these shapes intervallicly.

I don't really follow you here -everything is a shape, every chord every arpeggio, every voicing. A shape is just a collection of notes. So you can't improvise without 'using shapes', even if you are thinking of them in terms of being scale patterns or 2 5 1 licks or whatever. If you are not conscious of using the notes you choose as shapes then it is certainly worth giving it a go and seeing where it leads. Any approach that opens up the possibilities of what to play can only be good.

Beeboss, BTW it's really nice of you to interact with us here. I've really enjoyed your reharms at Keyboard Corner.

What I mean by not so shape focused is that when I actually play, I'm trying to just 'listen' to what I'm playing and just trying to create the line in my head instead of letting my finger muscle memory decide where to go. But I'm seeing that this limits what I do because my melodies are driven by chord tones. This was my 'basic' training so to speak.

When I start integrating an unusual shape, as I've focused on more recently, it changes what I hear, and somehow creates more options for me harmonically. So instead of just following typical harmony. There are sounds that are difficult to 'hear' for me (at the moment) and better played as just a shape. Some of these are the diminished patterns that I hear from Chick. A diminished line played intervallicly is not something my ear will naturally gravitate to. In the past, I would integrate diminished lines in a more scalar way just because I couldn't hear it otherwise.

In my other Jazz thread, I teach beginners to use Chord tones on downbeats and connect these in some fashion on upbeats. That's the basic rule I was taught. But now in the advanced stages of learning, I'm applying the new element: 'What Chord am I defining with the chord tones?' (meaning substitution on the fly). That's what we are doing with diminished cycle application for example.

I'm just discovering that some things are still best left to the fingers for now since my ears can't comprehend the sounds yet.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

Nice one on Dolphin dance, you have the difficult harmony of that tune well down.

I appreciate that. Will need to clean it up though as my time really sucks on it. That's my other problem. If I don't have the metronome on, my time will wander. Any tips on solidifying my internal clock?

On the augmented triad, I will try to post my exercise. I defined what I do with it earlier,which is pretty much just arpeggiating the Augmented triad as the chord tones in a ii-V.

there are many ways to work on time and no shortcut to developing good time.

There are zillions of great things to try but the 3 things that have worked the best for me are....

1- put the metronome on pretty slow, play something simple and spend some time just getting it rhythmically perfect. Often I have found rhythmic problems stem from not being relaxed or having too many things to concentrate, so take something simple and keep going until its perfect and effortless. Just quarter notes from a single scale is good for a start but it can be anything really as long as the entire focus is the rhythm.2 - without the metronome do the same thing. Play a simple groove and when its starts to sit properly focus on keeping it there. Keep up the concentration and relax into it and keep it grooving for at least 5 mins. In other words learn to really focus on the rhythm by not thinking about anything else.3 - Recording myself playing has really been illuminating as often I thought I was playing in time and then when I heard recordings back I realized that it didn't sit at all well. So try record yourself to see how you are doing. Work out which are the weak bit and work more on those.

These have worked well for me, although I would still only describe my time as adequate. Give it a go and see if you think it helps.

Concentration can be effortless as physical tension is not required to concentrate. Try sitting in a quiet place and concentrate on your breathing for a few minutes to see what I mean. At the piano one has to practice to get into this state, to be well above any technical problems, which is why it is best to start by practicing this focus with very easy pieces or exercises.

beeboss, yes, I was looking for the shortcut Darn.... As can be expected, the more complex the tune (like Dolphin Dance), the worse the time. Which I guess translates to where my mind is occupied. But with the metronome on, I'm ok.

I know that if I can solve my time problem, I'll do well. It's what's killing me because it is so slow to develop. But I guess it's one of the biggest developmental milestones, bigger than note picking...

I just wanted to make a comment about the thread split. The discussions in this thread so far would scare away any beginner. In contrast, the discussions in the Autumn Leaves thread will discourage anyone advanced because most of it is pretty basic, so I hope this does not get interpreted as some sort of exclusionary grouping. Instead it's meant to group the discussions by level and set expectations for the type of post response so it fits the potential audience (more advanced responses here would be the norm for example). I'm sure anyone that has read the discussions so far will get the point.

Anyone can feel free to jump in either direction though if something is of interest...

sceptical, whatever you think you know, what came out of Georgia sounded fresh to me.

Thanks, that's much appreciated coming from you.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So I was wondering what you were thinking when you were doing it.

Well the first bit I was just getting the tune out, and not thinking about anything besides getting to the end of the A section. The fingers have been there, done that, so anything that was coming out was from habit in that key. I could do the same tune in probably every other key, but they would all sound key specific, with the exceptions of the chords I really strive to throw in. As for the second bit, I was looking at replacing any Vs and their subs with extensions that I would normally not use. I believe I used upper structure bVI and II, but am unsure now. In any case I was trying to use ones that made me think about how I should approach them and where they ought to resolve to.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

From what I gather from what you said before that your Jazz side was self-taught?

Yes, generally self taught, but had probably 5 lessons when I was in my teens, and unfortunately too soon for me to really realize the significance of what was being taught to me. I didn't like listening to jazz until my twenties, and even then it was more like Pat Methany rather than Miles Davis (who I really didn't get until my later 20s after bad mouthing him for the longest time. Oops)

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

There's things you probably do that don't have a theory label but is the same sort of thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you are saying that what I may be doing is covered by conventional jazz or classical theory then I'd have to disagree. Whatever I've played I've picked up from somewhere, and when I slow down to see the progressions I use I know that they are nothing new, or inexplicable.

And, I've removed Georgia because it really wasn't something I wanted up there for too long, especially when people started posting their favorite Youtube versions which were meant as performances.

I'll post something again, and I hope others do too. But I was assuming this thread was all about learning and sharing that process. So in that spirit, I will continue to post things in progress looking for tips from others.

It is important to write down the chords you discover and ponder long and hard about which one sounds right in each place, and why it may work there.This will not only improve your ability to generate interesting harmony but also do wonders for your ears.

This I will try. It sounds like something that avoided for long enough and is well overdue. Trouble is, I'm quite lazy, so I'll probably just try to memorize things instead of committing them to paper. But I think you are right. It should prove very useful in the long run.

Now the Augmented triad is a ii-V thing so that I will record tomorrow when I get a chance. It's hard to do continuously because I wasn't as handy on it in all keys. Although I've learned this shape a long ago, I haven't really sat down and practiced it in all keys (which really translates to Augmented triad arpeggios).

And, I've removed Georgia because it really wasn't something I wanted up there for too long, especially when people started posting their favorite Youtube versions which were meant as performances.

I'll post something again, and I hope others do too. But I was assuming this thread was all about learning and sharing that process. So in that spirit, I will continue to post things in progress looking for tips from others.

I hope you reconsider this. For one we're anonymous here. Second, as we progress from our learning stages we post better things. Others can learn when they see where we've come from and where we end up. I sounded pretty bad two years ago. I'm better now. So others can compare and see what they can expect. Obviously we have tunes we can play better because we've done it over and over. But in learning something new, everyone has to start somewhere.

Anyway, my attitude is that I stopped caring. Every year, I get better and the old criticisms bounce off my new armor of growing skill. What we do here isn't easy and not learned overnight.

As we learn and fail sometmes, others learn with us. So I vote we leave our egos at the door and keep ourselves open here.

Well for one, I posted Dolphin Dance after 1 take, and clearly I was kind of renewing my memory of the changes. So a lot of it was off time. I'll repost it when I get a chance. But you don't see me rushing to fix it

Interesting sounds wee... I tend to use the augmented triad as a chord rather than arpeggio. Was trying out some Major/minor sounds today. Found this chord that I really liked, C Eb G B / F Bb D , best used as a C-7th chord but with the b7 and 7 together, adds some spice to it.

I was working on some melodies where your switch from major to minor and back, basically all 12 tones can be used, but you are working from a tonal centre. I wish I could post some stuff up, as soon as I am able to record I will.

I like you way you incorporate the 'excercise' into the music, how you are using the whole tone idea to guide your improvisation rather than just playing a pattern over the changes. I use this idea a lot in practice, especially over playalongs, basically improvising but using a restricted range of ideas to see what I can get out of them. It works with any idea from the most specific to the most vague, but ones I use a lot are...- intervals (using lots of 4ths for example)- a rhythmic pattern (maybe a group of 5 1/8 notes)- a shape of phrase (going up for 2 bars and then down for 1 bar)- a dynamic (start a phrase pp and then up to ff and back)-using large leaps of at least more than an octave- doing a whole sequence within the range of a 5thetc the possible list is endless. It's a great way of building up a store of approaches that I wouldn't normally use.

After doing it this way, then, I add the left hand rootless voicings and play the pattern with Band in a Box at a much slower tempo. The left hand addition is a killer for now. I won't be posting left hand for a while.

Barb

_________________________
A Sudnow Method Fanatic"Color tones, can't live without them"

Beeboss, you got what I was doing exactly. Although I said I was arpeggiating, I don't want to imply that this was written out and I was doing some Chopin Etude. This is all improvisation. The concept is limiting the note choices. From the basic Augmented Triad pattern, there are some other scalar choices that allow me to alter the melody.

So hopefully doing these exercises expands my vocabulary. The specific thing that I'm training myself to do is intervallic playing, which in my mind is raising tension by moving in unpredictable intervals. Regular Bebop is typically heavy in stepwise and chromatic encirclement moves and can be predictable. Mixing intervallic playing adds that little modern touch.

Fourths are a particularly good for an intervallic pattern. As I'm learning more, it seems like you can make unusual sounds too if you consciously alter where you start your quartal pattern. I'm not going to post an exercise of this since I already practiced this before.

Now I can't say that the diminished cycle triads on dominants are automatic to my fingers yet so I'll be doing some more work on that.

Before I did this exercise, I understood Augmented triads in theory but didn't sufficiently practice it so I can apply it on anything on the fly. Now I think I can.

After doing it this way, then, I add the left hand rootless voicings and play the pattern with Band in a Box at a much slower tempo. The left hand addition is a killer for now. I won't be posting left hand for a while.