The Stealth Hippopotamus:Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Very good points/questions.

Why didn't they just pull back (very early on) and catch Koresh when he left the compound (which he commonly did)?"

TerminalEchoes:That Guy Jeff: They are going to be murdered by the federal government?

/reads article

Nope, a large group of people decided to go for a protest march after one of their members was arrested and the authorities tried to prevent them from marching, inciting violence until the people were successfully prevented from exercising their rights and were confined to their property.

Am I reading this correctly? And what the hell is a pandit?

Nope. You didn't read it correctly. At all.

From the article (most of the article at the time I posted):

The van exited the area and was not stopped by the large group. The large group then knocked down a gate that adjoins 170th Street. They started walking east blocking the whole street.

Sheriff's personnel attempted to divert the large group back onto the pandit complex but were unable to do so. The group then surrounded the patrol vehicle and threw rocks at the driver. They also threw rocks at the back window, breaking the window. They attempted to break off the mirrors of the patrol car and kicked out a back light. There were approximately 70-80 pandits surrounding the vehicle. The patrol car was able to back away from the crowd and the officer called for assistance.

The large group then continued east picking up rocks and debris. They continued to throw them at the sheriff's vehicle. After some time, pandit personnel were able to stop the group less than a mile from the property. They were able to walk them back to the pandit property.

Law enforcement agencies staged close to the entrance of the property to contain the group if they did come back onto the roadway. All units were able to go back into service at around 10 a.m.

Large group of people marching down a street, police try to stop them, violence ensues, police eventually get them corralled back on their property. Sounds about right... what part am I not ready correctly?

TerminalEchoes:Funny how Reno gets a free pass for murdering innocent people (most of the followers of Koresh but not Koresh himself) yet Marines are courtmartialed, jailed, and ruined when they do the same thing in Iraq. So fark the government and fark you.

Tarl3k:Richard C Stanford: htomc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Sending a message to the American people, of what might happen if they ever got certain dangerous ideas in their heads. You know, things like liberty, freedom, limited government, and other such things that are so very inconvenient to the rulers.[img.fark.net image 474x300]So by liberty, freedom, and limited government you mean stockpiling weapons and pumping out Tater Jrs for a creepy guy who claims he's Jesus? Or do you mean being the creepy guy who claims he's Jesus?/What's that? Oh no, it's the black helicopters coming to put you in a FEMA camp next to the NAFTA superhighway!

Beat me to it...that guy is one of the worst trolls I have seen in Fark...and there are some REALLY bad trolls here...

Wait, me or the other guy?Anyway, that's going to be my default response to other trolls. It's from the terrible movie A Troll In Central Park, specifically a scene where one of the "evil" trolls walks around singing "I'm a baaaad troll, a very baaaad troll, la la la la la." You can find it on youtube, please, someone make that a GIF.

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world. The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world. The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world. The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?

That's a new one to me but not unreasonable for a line of investigation. He was a dangerous and motivated man even if he was a patsy

Wow, I'd never heard of the guy. I Googled him, and am reading an article in the Deseret News that claims that Timothy McVeigh fingered him as the FBI guy that was giving him orders. Curiouser and curiouser.

Welcome to the waking world. The rabbit hole is deeper than you can imagine

From that article:

Nichols' claims seem to indicate the FBI put McVeigh up to the plot as a draw for radicals, but that the situation got out of control and McVeigh became a runaway informant.

So the claim is that the FBI urged McVeigh to hatch a plot so they could round up radicals, McVeigh went off the reservation, they lost track of him and he went on to successfully pull off the OKC bombing?

That's a new one to me but not unreasonable for a line of investigation. He was a dangerous and motivated man even if he was a patsy

I am deep into the years leading up to WW1 at the moment but I think this subject may have vaulted ahead of "light-hearted pleasure reading."

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:jbc: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Waco didn't go Waco because of Waco. Waco went Waco because of Reno.

Why am I not surprised you'd side with criminals and kooks over the United States?

They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Truther:The Stealth Hippopotamus: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Very good points/questions.

Why didn't they just pull back (very early on) and catch Koresh when he left the compound (which he commonly did)?"

Did he continue to leave the compound after the initial shoot-out? Or do mean even earlier on? Because if you mean earlier on, there was nothing to pull back from.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Why are those the only two options? You can think Koresh was a nutjob who deserved a couple to the back of the head but also realize that LE could have handled it much differently and completely avoided a standoff. Same overzealous bullshiat that led to the MOVE bombing.

We're on the Internet! Black or white, there is no Micheal Jackson.

Did the Branch Davidians over react? Yeah. Did Reno? Oh hell yeah. What the hell were tanks even doing in Waco, TX?

Hmm, the Branches had M16s and AK47s converted to fully automatic. Tanks are, well, kind of bullet proof. Also, the military vehicles there had their primary weapon systems removed before the Texas National Guard shipped them to Waco for use by the federal agents.

demaL-demaL-yeH:UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

so what's the weirdest town in Iowa then? The frog-hopping levitators of fairfield and vedic city? The hardcore capitalist religious communists of the amanas? the dutch reformed in pella who still won't let bars have lighted beer signs? the weird vibe of muscatine? The placid whitebread conformity of west des moines?

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

/Doubts that Potts was McVeigh's handler.//Naturally, I could be wrong.

Yeah.

Someone posted this article further up the thread. They didnt say anything about it, just plopped it down. I am half way through and it seems like it is trying to say that the Davidians were great people and they did nothing wrong and they were just bullied by the government. I cant believe that either side is clean in this story.

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Goldstien Sachs:Can you just forward over that further reading? I find this type of thing fascinating.

I can link you to a government source for FM pdfs, but whenever I click on the pdfs, I get a warning that the site is unsecure. You're welcome to peruse them but do so at your own risk. Here's the LINK. I might recommend FM 2-91.4, FM 3-05, FM 3-11.11, FM 3-11.9, FM 3-11.22, FM 3-11.21, FM 3-11.50, FM 3-13, and wow, there's just endless reading on this subject. There are dozens more I could recommend that all pertain to this. Enjoy!

demaL-demaL-yeH:UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Gunny Highway: Wait, who is "the dark side?"

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.

Omahawg:so what's the weirdest town in Iowa then? The frog-hopping levitators of fairfield and vedic city? The hardcore capitalist religious communists of the amanas? the dutch reformed in pella who still won't let bars have lighted beer signs? the weird vibe of muscatine? The placid whitebread conformity of west des moines?

what's weird, in the end?

Great question. Amana Colonies is way freakier than Fairfield...cannot put my finger on why. Pella just sucks (wife went to Central). I don't know much about Muscatine, and bingo, you nailed WDM on the head. Throw in Waukee with WDM.

/live 30 minutes from Fairfield//pissed off the levitators in a big way (that's another story)

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.

Not buying it: There was no reason to kill them when they had them dead to rights on federal felonies for firearms, murder, and holding hostages. The food would have run out, and you can't eat ammo.

There is no dark side, it's all dark, really...paraphrased from Roger Waters

Dude, Goldstein Sachs claims to be in Karachi, Pakistan. Do not provide further references.Perhaps this discussion should move offline.

More to the point, targeting a building with civilians inside when there is no operational risks for continuing a siege is both illegal and asinine. Besides, they'd have used Willy Peter, not CS, if the goal was to burn them out.

Not if they were trying to retain plausible deniability. They first claimed that they used non-incendiary tear gas, then when confronted with incendiary tear gas canisters in the rubble, they claimed it wasn't theirs.

Not buying it: There was no reason to kill them when they had them dead to rights on federal felonies for firearms, murder, and holding hostages. The food would have run out, and you can't eat ammo.

Then we'll just have to disagree on this. I watched the final assault live, while talking on the telephone to my sister, and predicted 30 minutes before the fire(s) started what was going to happen, then cried with her as those criminals and their children burned. In my mind, it was murder pure and simple. I tried to watch the documentary that someone upthread recommended (sorry, I can't find your name, or I'd cite you) and got just a few minutes into it and had to stop. It still moves me.

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER:demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Here, let me rephrase it for you: Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did. Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault. Care to try again?

Mock26:UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: demaL-demaL-yeH: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: They (law enforcement) burned up children on purpose. I know. I taught tactics like this in the military. I saw it as it was happening. It was intentional. They waited for the windiest day they could, they punched holes into the building to build a chimney effect, and they pumped flaming tear gas into the building, to make sure they burned every person up. The U.S. were the criminals there.

Bullshiat.

I know that you're a veteran (you mentioned it in a previous thread) so you know that of course, I never trained for this specific situation. But as I was a fully qualified combat engineer in an armored infantry division, and taught demolitions for thirteen years, this was an easily trained for operation that could be successfully practiced and prepared for in a matter of days. This is just an urban warfare problem, with a simple solution if the orders were given to end the operation.

Here, let me rephrase it for you: Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did. Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault. Care to try again?

You provided an image. That told me nothing. I had to guess at what you were questioning. You can fark off, and learn how to ask a question respectfully, asshole.

Mock26:HeadLever: Mock26: Oh really? It was Reno who made them break the law?

Law breakers deserve to be in prison. The decisions that were made led them (and many innocent people) to the morgue instead.

Sometimes lawbreakers die. That is just the way it works out sometimes. If they really wanted to live then maybe they should not have broken the law.

And those children they had in there with them? They deserved to burn to death too? Let's face it, the government is at least partially to blame for the deaths of those children. They had the cult completely surrounded. They could have just waited and starved them out, but no, they launched an assault and intentionally or intentionally lit the whole farking place on fire.

Mock26:Not very good at this whole proof thing, are you?Here, let me rephrase it for you: Prove that this is what the federal agents on the scene did. Providing a link to a training manual is not proof that said material was used in the assault. Care to try again?

Field manual. But it didn't have anything in it about how to burning down houses./It did have stuff on useful KABOOMs.