There's a piece of the puzzle missing in this example. The four-tuner Tivos require cable service, so you've omitted the cost of that cable service.

That recording you created on a Tivo and streamed to a Mini wasn't entirely free--it's just that you didn't pay a transactional cost for that program.

Well thats not really an apples to apples comparison if you make that argument. Nobody is going to buy ONLY a TiVo mini. If you buy a TiVo product at all you've already bought into the cost model where you value cable service.

If you watch little enough TV that cord cutting is a cost effective option, then you shouldn't even be looking at TiVo. IMHO this argument of Mini vs Roku/AppleTV is specious. They don't REALLY provide similar entertainment choices. Especially if you value timely viewing of HBO/Showtime or even many cable shows.

I've been waiting for the Mini to get back into TiVos because without the mini the cost structure is completely out of whack for a 3 TV household. Not only would I have to buy 3 Premieres, but I'd have to pay monthly for 3 cablecards.

I am chomping at the bit to buy a XL4 + 2 Minis (all lifetime because I hate monthly fees).

As a consumer, all I care about is receiving my video entertainment, and those "other" devices everyone else at TCF dismisses are more than capable of fulfilling that desire.

Well if that is the case why do you have cable tv and a DVR? Just get rid of both and then the Mini is irrelevant and you can enjoy your Roku or what ever device you want to use to get content from some source other than cable tv.

The bottom line is either someone wants a device to watch cable TV and shows they recorded from cable TV on a Premiere 4/XL on additional TVs or they don't.

Well if that is the case why do you have cable tv and a DVR? Just get rid of both and then the Mini is irrelevant and you can enjoy your Roku or what ever device you want to use to get content from some source other than cable tv.

I have no issues with differing opinions. I personally do not have cable TV and will not be purchasing a Mini as I have no need for its function. So for me having a differing opinion on where to get content is certainly a place where differing opinions are interesting/welcome.

But to keep bring up a Roku as some alternative to a Mini is more than misleading, it does not do what a Mini is designed for and they are not interchangeable. What hardware one can choose from is fairly dependent on where one gets there content. The Mini/Premiere 4/XL system is designed for persons who have decided to get their content from Cable TV. When a person considers completive hardware solutions that hardware needs to work with the same content source if it doesn't then it really isn't an alternative.

Just for the record I have a Roku, Google TV via a Logitech Revue, a Western Digital Live TV streaming device, and a Netgear NeoTV streaming device. So I have nothing against streaming media devices. Plus I also have a HTPC with HDHomerun OTA tuners. So I have both alternative content sources and an actual devices that is an alternative/competitor to a TiVo (the HTPC).

Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.

I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.

The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users.

Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.

Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.

I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.

The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users.

Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.

I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.

This has been a huge market for Verizon and Direct TV with there Whole home solutions. Direct TV which offers basically no streaming services, is moving there Genie/Whole home system like hotcakes.... You have one main DVR(Genie/Premiere 4) and sub boxes in your other rooms(Mini/Genie Client)

If Tivo can get to the point where they are selling a 6 Tuner DVR to a family with 3 Mini's for bedrooms/offices/kitchens.. then that would be perfect...

Even charging say 12.95 for the Premiere a month, plus 18 dollars for 3 Mini's.. That is only 5 dollars more a month then Direct TV charges for there Whole Home system.. I am not sure what Verizon charges

My Tivo is what it is... an HDDVR and that is what i use it for 95% of the time. We watch mostly live TV and record our shows/ watch them and delete them... anything beyond that is a bonus... That and I like the HD interface. I had my cable companies WHDVR solution and dropped it after 2 months and got 2 Premieres. It was ugly and slow as ****. That and with Tivo and I can do everything i could with Direct TV I could not do with cable. Stream shows to my phone, schedule recordings online... remembering that this is a DVR first

Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.

I'd certainly love to have a unified interface and have waited patiently for Tivo to get moving on it, but they haven't. Meanwhile other devices are delivering a lot of new content. And now Tivo wants me to buy (and pay monthly for) a new box that only offers streaming from another Tivo? Frankly, I'd rather have a Roku (or someone else's player) add Tivo streaming functionality instead. Because at least then I'd have a prayer of actual innovation being delivered.

The real issue behind all of this is the unified UI and single remote. As in, give the wife something that's always on 'Input 4' and always uses the same remote. No input changing, no swapping remotes or using a programmed universal one. Or, worse, expect their to be a phone/tablet handy (and charged) to control it. It seems like a trivial thing, but it's really key to getting buy-in from regular users.

Tivo has this with their DVR and some support for online content. But the failure to keep pace with the abundance of online content that's available now makes it very difficult to justify going with new Tivo solutions.

In my opinion in the IP/Internet Streaming area TiVo is not at the top of the pack. In many areas other devices do a much better job of it. However TiVo does have some strong features in this area and I use my TiVos more than any of the streaming media devices I have except maybe my HTPC.

The ability to subscribe to pod casts and have them auto download is very useful and the ability to have HD Rentals from Amazon is great for those of us with slower "high" speed Internet access.

I suspect that TiVo has to do a hardware refresh before it can go much further. Hopefully that will be soon as they really do need to improve in this area.

That said we do not really have any off the shelf appliance type devices out there that combines the abilities of a good DVR with the abilities of the top Streaming devices. A person can get there with a HTPC but they will need to do lots of self setup/configuration.

Here's the thing, though, the Roku folks (hell, just about ALL player developers) are showing a lot more effort toward providing access to a lot of different content. Whereas Tivo has all but stagnated.

What, you're not excited about the new Web Video Launchpad?
Or the craptacularly slow YouTube and Netflix apps?

Seriously, I think they know they have a dog in the current hardware given the questionable choice to run Flash on it, so even if they want to do anything more it's probably not going to be decent until S5s come out (and that's a big if given their track record for net apps).

But they will finally catch up to WMC, some cable, and the satellite DVRs when the Mini comes out, and that's more important to most than what new crappy app runs on the box.

I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.

This is where I think they made the mistake though. It should be both.

As an extender I have no use for it. As a Roku replacement that also streams from TiVos I am in the purchase column. It could even be an actual Roku that TiVo skinned with their own UI.

__________________
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2 - TiVo Premiere XL

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You may have no use but for the many homes they are trying to get into, this can get them in

I don't disagree. I just think as a Roku replacement it also works then in people's home who don't have a TiVo. As a result you have a larger potential base of customers who also have the opportunity to convert to 4 and XL4 users.

As it is now you would already have to be considering TiVo for this to bring you over. Those people who aren't considering TiVo like my sister who has Rokus in every room aren't going to start looking at TiVo because an extender is now available.

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I think part of the reason services have been slow to develop apps for the TiVo platform is because the hardware in the current gen Premiere units is so sh*tty. The Mini uses a much better chip and I presume the next gen TiVo will too. That should encourage more developers to create apps for the TiVo platform. Although another reason they may be shying away is TiVos strange policies when it comes to their developer program. Basically when you write an app for the TiVo and submit it to TiVo they own it and they get to decide if they want to deploy it or not. So you could spent a lot of time writing an app and TiVo could reject it outright without any reasoning or recourse. At least the app stores for iTunes and Windows 8 have specific guidelines and they'll usually tell you why they're rejecting an app when they do. TiVo can reject an app for any reason they choose and they don't even have to tell you why.

Basically when you write an app for the TiVo and submit it to TiVo they own it and they get to decide if they want to deploy it or not. So you could spent a lot of time writing an app and TiVo could reject it outright without any reasoning or recourse.

Before the (pitiful) developer program was launched I found a way to launch Flash apps via RPC that I think still works and hence could bypass the need for official approval. However, the Flash kit is so limited that one is better off using older HME kit anyway, so it's kind of pointless.

In my opinion in the IP/Internet Streaming area TiVo is not at the top of the pack. In many areas other devices do a much better job of it. However TiVo does have some strong features in this area and I use my TiVos more than any of the streaming media devices I have except maybe my HTPC.

The ability to subscribe to pod casts and have them auto download is very useful and the ability to have HD Rentals from Amazon is great for those of us with slower "high" speed Internet access.

I suspect that TiVo has to do a hardware refresh before it can go much further. Hopefully that will be soon as they really do need to improve in this area.

That said we do not really have any off the shelf appliance type devices out there that combines the abilities of a good DVR with the abilities of the top Streaming devices. A person can get there with a HTPC but they will need to do lots of self setup/configuration.

TiVo has the best shot at it right now, although it would be interesting to see what would happen if Roku made a headless DVR box with 6 CableCard tuners in it...

I tried WMC, and it was a failure. It's hard to set up, the interface sucks, and it isn't even a good DVR other than for raw hardware specs. Someone could make great HTPC software, but no one has, as it's a small market.

I am finding that AirPlay is immensely powerful, and is a way to really bring content to many screens in the house, since you just change what TV you're outputting to on your iPad. I think the combo of TiVo Mini + Apple TV may be a VERY potent one, as the iPad can AirPlay just about every content source possible, and provides a fantastic content browsing interface.

TiVo tried to do what Roku did, but didn't execute as well. That being said, they still have the inherent advantage that they can cross-search cable and everything else, and a few minor perks like 1080p Amazon, because apparently Roku can't handle 1080p. Riiiiiight.

WHAT IF TiVo were to launch something like the Mini to compete head to head with the Roku for streaming at the $99 price point to get into houses, and then do an upsell by requiring the license to get access to the TiVo DVRs? They would have to make a good developer platform, however.

Roku to me at this point, while a nice product with a fantastic remote (if only because it's RF and works 100% of the time unlike IR) is basically redundant to everything else at this point. Most of the content it has can either be done through a Blu-Ray player or smart TV, or it can be done via AirPlay on the iPad. In fact, the only thing I can think of that can't be done through AirPlay is VUDU, which would only be used on a main TV that would have VUDU itself or on a Blu-ray player anyways. I'm not getting rid of my Roku, but I can't see a case to recommend it to anyone else. A DVR + Blu-Ray + Apple TV makes a lot more sense.

I recently bought a Samsung smart TV. I use it for everything now. Vudu, Netflix, HBOGo, etc... No need for a separate box or remote, it's all built right into the TV. Although if TiVo had all those services, and they didn't run like molasses, I'd rather use it instead. The unified search really does make it easier to find things. But there is no way I'm ever using my XBox, PS3 or Wii for any of those things again. Nor do I have any need to buy a Roku or Apple TV.

I think everyone is really missing the mark with this..... The mini was never designed to be like a Roku or this great media streaming device. It was meant to extend TV to another room.. Like a bedroom or an office or somewhere you dont need a DVR. So you could watch Live TV or your recordings there.

Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.

Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.

Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.

Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.

Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.

Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.

I think the Stand Alone IP/Internet Streaming devices (Roku etc.) are in allot more trouble than TiVo. This doesn't mean I think TiVo shouldn't be working hard on improving their IP/Internet Streaming features - I certainly do. But the reality is if someone buys a new TV, Blu-ray player, Gaming console, and yes even a TiVo DVR they get IP/Internet Streaming that is good enough for many (most?) people. Give these devices another generation or 2 of updates and there will be zero reason for Stand Alone IP/Streaming devices. I think most of us are going to want/need DVRs for allot longer time period.

Yeah, well, and once upon a time some feedbag maker probably said the same thing about those infernal contraptions, the automobile. Tivo's lame approach to a wider app & content market just smacks of the horse-drawn carriage in the face of gasoline.

Yeah, you can still ride that one trick pony but pretty soon you're left in the dust, shoveling up your own poop.

I agree. Tivo is missing the mark if they don't think that folks want the mini to also replace or work like a Roku. And for the price tag... It needs to do a heck of a lot more.

I think the Stand Alone IP/Internet Streaming devices (Roku etc.) are in allot more trouble than TiVo. This doesn't mean I think TiVo shouldn't be working hard on improving their IP/Internet Streaming features - I certainly do. But the reality is if someone buys a new TV, Blu-ray player, Gaming console, and yes even a TiVo DVR they get IP/Internet Streaming that is good enough for many (most?) people. Give these devices another generation or 2 of updates and there will be zero reason for Stand Alone IP/Streaming devices. I think most of us are going to want/need DVRs for allot longer time period.

Except in a TV they typically charge a premium to have those apps. So the price premium can be $150 to $300 or even more.
It's much cheaper to get a stand alone device. Plus if there is an issue you can easily replace it, unlike if it's in the TV. As far as a BD player, most people still use DVD players. Are these apps also available in DVD players? And the gaming machines use 40 times or more the power than a Roku uses. Plus they are much louder since they have a fan running in them. While the stand alone media players don't typically have a fan.

I agree. Tivo is missing the mark if they don't think that folks want the mini to also replace or work like a Roku. And for the price tag... It needs to do a heck of a lot more.

Totally agree there, but we've all seen how bad most of the Tivo apps are. Hardware limited or not, some of them have some pretty bad UIs, like YouTube. The only one I like is Pandora, and that is a basic app functionality-wise.

Bottom line is don't count on Tivo to deliver anything decent over the net, no matter what hardware it runs on.

Again.... you guys are totally missing the market here... this is not meant to be a Roku/Streaming appliance. This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies

This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies

TiVo IS the cable company. Their revenues are higher through retail than say partners like RCN or Suddenlink, especially when they launch unsubsidized hardware like the Mini, and that's why they haven't shut us down. But the thing is, if every TiVo also requires a collocated Roku or Apple TV, it's easier for most to just stick with the cable company's non-TiVo DVR.

Again.... you guys are totally missing the market here... this is not meant to be a Roku/Streaming appliance. This is meant to break into the whole home and compete with Cable companies and Sat Companies

And again, I think Tivo is missing it here. They could easily sell these things to a lot more folks (me included)... If they treated this as the product that it should be or charged a decent price for what it is.