-- Nov 30, 1896; Monday
This morning Presidents [Wilford] Woodruff and [Joseph F.] Smith met at their office with Elders L[orenzo]. Snow, F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.] and C[harles]. W. Penrose, when a communication from President Snow which he had prepared with the assistance of Brother Penrose for publication, was read and passed upon, to be published in the Deseret News of the evening, as follows:

The following correspondence needs neither explanation nor comment, save the suggestion that President Snow's letter is deserving of, and doubtless will receive, the most careful consideration of all Latter-day Saints.

Salt Lake City,

Nov[ember]. 27, 1896.

Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Twelve Apostles:

Dear Brother -- As there has been much discussion over the correspondence between Moses Thatcher and yourself and some of our own people are at sea in regard to the primary cause of Brother Thatcher's lack of harmony with your quorum, leading to his excommunication therefrom, in behalf of a number of such persons we pen you this communication.

We are aware that the difficulty mainly rested with the Twelve and one of its members; also that when action was taken in the case there was no need of your making further explanations. We can appreciate your abstinence from controversy, on a purely Church matter, through the public prints. But seeing that there appears to be a misapprehension of the facts in the case, and that many good people are liable, in consequence of that, to form incorrect conclusions, we respectfully ask you, if it be not inconsistent with any rule of the Church or of the Council

over which you preside, to make some public statement which will serve to place this matter in its true light before the Saints, and clear away the mists which, to some at least, seem to surround the subject of Moses Thatcher's deposition. As he has given to the world the private correspondence that passed between you and him in a Church capacity, is it fair, even to yourself and your associates, to leave the matter in its present condition and open to so much misconstruction? If you would make an explanatory statement through the Deseret News, we believe it would be highly esteemed by many others, as well as

Dear Brethren: -- In response to your esteemed communication of the 27th inst., I have determined, after conference with several of the Apostles, to offer some explanations on the case of Moses Thatcher and comments on the correspondence to which you refer, through the columns of the Deseret News.

The Apostles did not view the publication of the letters that passed to and from Brother Moses Thatcher and them as calling for any controversy on their part. Nor did they think it a proper thing to give those ecclesiastical communications general publicity through secular newspapers. The letters bearing my signature were not prepared with a design for publication, whatever the others might have been--and were regarded as Church matters for the consideration solely of the respective parties. It is only because those letters have been given to the public, and because it seems, from what you see, that an improper impression has been made upon the minds of some people thereby, that I comply with the request to meet some of the statements they contain.

The evident purpose in publishing those communications was to excite public sympathy; and the unnecessary and superfluous appeals they contain convey the impression that they were concocted for that purpose. They were not relevant to the issue involved. Moses Thatcher was not on trial for his fellowship. Specific charges were not preferred either in public or in private. The question was solely as to his standing as one of the Apostles, in consequence of his lack of harmony with the Quorum of the Twelve of which he was a member. That question he could have settled at any time if he had so desired, and that without a formal trial. By placing himself in harmony with his Quorum, in the spirit of humility and conformity with its rules, of which he was not in ignorance, he could have saved himself all the trouble and

deprivation of which he complains.

In his review of what he calls his case, he lays great stress on the matter of the Declaration of Principles, which he refused to sign after it had received the endorsement of the First Presidency, the Apostles (excepting himself), the Seven Presidents of the Seventies, the Patriarch, and the Presiding Bishopric, comprising the general authorities of the Church. His excuse is that he had only about an hour and thirty minutes in which to consider it. Usually men do not require much time to consider a matter which they have always held to be right. There was nothing new in that document as it relates to Church discipline. It contains that which has always been an established doctrine of the Church. When the committee which prepared it submitted it to the other Church authorities, they signed it after reading without hesitation and without requiring time to deliberate. It embodies so manifestly a conceded and necessary rule that every one in harmony with the Church authorities accepted it at once, and the Church as a body has received and adopted it as an essential rule. Why should Moses Thatcher alone, of all the Church authorities, feel that he could not sign it as he alleges, "without stultification?" Was not that in itself evidence that he was and had been out of harmony with his brethren? And are they not men as little disposed as any one living to stultify themselves, or to assent to anything wrong that is of vital importance to them and to the Church?

He charges that his letter refusing to sign the Declaration was "suppressed." There was no suppression in the matter at all. The letter was not addressed to the Conference nor to the public. Out of mercy and compassion to him no reference was made to his contumacy at the April Conference, but his name was simply dropped from the list of authorities presented. How could he have been sustained under the circumstances? There are six of the Twelve now living who voted for his appointment to the Apostleship. Not one of them would have sustained him for that position if it had been known that he then entertained views entirely out of harmony with those of that body. The letter addressed at that time to his associates was a deliberately composed communication showing that he was able to understand the document which he refused to sign, and his prompt publication of that letter, in a secular newspaper, shows that he had a deliberate intention to oppose the Declaration and defy his brethren who promulg[at]ed it. But if he did not have sufficient time to consider the Declaration at the April Conference, what about the six months which elapsed before the October Conference? Was not that time enough? During that interval he was visited by many of his brethren, some of them Apostles, and no change was effected, but he failed even to attend the October Conference or to manifest a disposition to conform to the principle of the Declaration.

It is true that he was in poor bodily health during that period. But he was not too ill to upbraid brethren who tried to impress him with the danger of his position, nor to accuse

some of them of having "blanketed their conscience" in signing the Declaration.

He states in his letters that he would have attended the October Conference if it had not been for the "assurances and reassurances" he had received that nothing would be done concerning his standing until his health should be restored. He then complains bitterly of the explanation given to the Conference as to his position and seeks to convey the impression that they were a breach of good faith.

The "assurances" to which he refers were faithfully fulfilled. He was left in statu quo. Every time it was shown that the condition of his health would not admit of his meeting with his quorum the question of his standing was postponed. But meanwhile he and his friends were not slow to talk about his associates and to convey unwarranted impressions concerning their course in his case. So much misunderstanding was thereby created that it became absolutely necessary to make some explanations that the Latter-day Saints might not be deceived. President Woodruff was so strongly impressed with this that he addressed the Conference on the subject and his statements were endorsed by several of the Twelve who followed him.

This was no "trial" of Moses Thatcher. It was simply a necessary explanation of his status. It involved the question of his lack of harmony with the Church authorities. His claims that he was publicly accused and therefore should have a public trial is astonishingly absurd. He was not accused in the sense of a trial or investigation. The act of his lack of harmony with the authorities was explained and shown to be of much earlier date than his refusal to sign the Declaration and his engaging in active politics. To place himself in harmony with the Twelve, or refuse to do so, required no "trial" either public or private. He did neither. Yet the assurances given him which he misconstrues were observed and his ?case? was not called up until he was able to appear.

It was but a few days after the Conference, even if it had entirely closed, before he appeared and spoke at public meetings as though he still held the authority in which he had not been sustained at Conference. This necessitated the announcement from the First Presidency through the Deseret News that he had no right to officiate in the Priesthood while in his suspended condition.

Notwithstanding that announcement, when he chose to present himself to the authorities he presumed to attempt entrance to the temple for that purpose, and at a time when the First Presidency as well as the Twelve met for the consideration of other Church matters and for holding their prayer circle. No one could attend but those of their own body or even enter the House unless in good standing. No member of the Church without the proper recommend can obtain admittance to the Temple, no matter how much he may have contributed to its erection. That would cut no figure at all in the right of entrance. It is amazing that Moses Thatcher should attempt to

intrude the boast of his contributions into the question of entering the Temple of God when not in good standing and full fellowship.

His exclusion from the Temple he construes into being "denied the privilege of meeting with the quorum." No one knew better than he that there was no such denial. The assurance given him by Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards and others of the quorum was proof of their willingness to meet him and their joy at his manifestation of even a desire to meet them. That there were other places and occasions when he could properly have an interview with his brethren he fully understood, and he subsequently applied for it as he should have done long before.

In passing I will notice his technical quibble about the closing of the Temple against him on October 15th for his disregard of my letter of October 23rd, which he says is hard for him to understand. A careful reading of my letter will show that the difficulty is of his own manufacture. What I said conveys no such meaning as he asserts. I said, "This being the condition of affairs you were not admitted to the Temple on the forenoon of Thursday." "The condition of affairs" which caused that exclusion is set forth in the first paragraph of my letter, and relates to occurrences before the 15th. It is true that my letter of the 23rd in rely to his of the 16th is incidentally mentioned but only as something growing out of what happened on the 15th, and of course was not intended to apply as a condition existing before that date. This perversion of plain language shows what small evasions will be resorted to when one gets into the dark.

Reference to the Conference discourses published in the Deseret News was made that Brother Thatcher might know exactly what the brethren said, that he might see the necessity there was for the people to understand where he stood, and that he might see the need of putting himself in harmony with the Church authorities.

It is necessary to notice his complaint that he had not been invited to attend the meeting at which final action was taken in his case. In his letter dated November 4th, he says:

I returned to this city Thursday--a week ago tomorrow--and have daily expected to hear respecting a time when I could see the brethren once more together. No word having reached me respecting that matter, I adopt this means of respectfully asking you when such meeting can be arranged. As early a reply as convenient will greatly oblige,

Your brother in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher.

To this I replied, as has been published, under date of November 6:

In accordance with your wishes for a meeting, I take pleasure in appointing 2 o'clock on Thursday next at the Historian's Office, upon which occasion the quorum will be pleased to meet with you. With kindest regards, your

brother and fellow servant,

Lorenzo Snow.

On the day thus appointed the Apostles met, at the time and place thus designated, when they received his lengthy communication dated Nov[ember]. 11, in which he said:

I shall not trouble my brethren therefore to convene in a special meeting named for Thursday at 2 p.m. at the Historian's Office.

Thereupon the Council of the Apostles gave him one week more, and notified him that his case would be called up for action at a meeting to be held in the Historian's office at 10 a.m. on Thursday, the 19th inst., as appears in my letter, published by him with the other correspondence.

When that day arrived we received his last letter in which he said:

As there is to be no trial of my case and as I am not requested to be present, I take it to be the purpose of considering my case, etc.

Why should there have been any further tampering with the case? Moses Thatcher was entirely out of harmony with his brethren the Apostles. He was simply requested to put himself in accord with them as is required by the Gospel and the order of the councils of the Priesthood. That he declined to do. After asking for a time and place to be appointed when he could meet with them, and in response to that request a time and place were set, and the Apostles came from distant points for the purpose of meeting with him, instead of appearing he coolly notified them by letter that he would "not trouble them to convene!" Then when they gave him another week in which to appear, and notified him that his case would be called up for consideration and action, he still treated the Council with contempt and asserted: "I am not requested to be present."

That the Council of the Apostles took the only consistent action that was left open must be evident to every Latter-day Saint who has eyes to see and a heart to understand. Why Moses Thatcher did not meet with his brethren, after they had assembled at his own request, is best known to himself. Notwithstanding his past course they were ready to receive him with open arms if he had come in the proper spirit and put himself in accord with them. As he would not, they expelled him from the Priesthood as they were in duty bound to do.

It should be known that the disaffection of Moses Thatcher dates back to a time long before political difficulties could enter into the matter. President Woodruff has stated publicly that Moses Thatcher had not been in full harmony with his quorum since the death of President John Taylor. trouble was had with him before that time.

In 1886 he proclaimed in public discourses ideas and predictions not endorsed by his brethren. At Lewiston, Cache county [Utah], notes were taken of these utterances and published on a flyer. He was subsequently written to by President [John] Taylor, and his answer is on file. While he

claimed that he had not been accurately reported, he gave his own language, under his own hand, to the effect of predictions of events to occur within five years, which have failed of fulfilment and which were founded on erroneous interpretations of Scripture. He wrote for publication a sort of retraction which really took nothing back but merely charged partial errors in the report of his extravagant remarks.

He was out of harmony with his brethren in relation to a standing appellate High Council, which he claimed should be appointed and which he has never acknowledged was incorrect.

He disputed with President Taylor as to the appointment of President of the Logan [Utah] Temple and contended for a man of his own selection, even after the President announced the appointment by revelation.

His bearing with his brethren of the Twelve was such that he could not brook dissent and resented their non-acceptance of his personal views.

When Wilford Woodruff's accession to the Presidency was under consideration, as the proper successor, he expressed opinions which showed that he regarded human smartness and business ability as above that simplicity of character and susceptibility to divine impressions which are notable in that faithful servant of God, and objected that such a man could not grasp the situation of affairs or cope with the difficulties arising. He was overruled but persisted in his views.

When President George Q. Cannon, after the decease of President Taylor, was in prison for infraction of the anti-polygamy laws, Moses claimed that Brother Cannon had defrauded him, and he threatened in the presence of President Woodruff and others of the Twelve to sue him at law and thus bring many private affairs before the public through the courts. Only on being emphatically warned by President Woodruff and others that such a course, particularly in Brother Cannon's condition, would result disastrously to him in his Church position did he desist. On President Cannon's release from confinement the matter was fully investigated and it was demonstrated that instead of Brother Cannon's owing him he was in Brother Cannon's debt to an amount which he subsequently paid. For his insult and hard language towards Brother Cannon, he has never apologized nor made any amends. This incident is referred to in President Cannon's absence from the State. He has always preserved silence on this matter and did not wish it to be mentioned against Brother Thatcher. But it is important as showing Moses Thatcher's spirit and bearing towards his brethren.

Brother Thatcher makes great pretension of devotion to the Church and declares he has "never shirked any responsibility." The people in many of the various Stakes of Zion who have been visited by the Apostles may ask themselves when they have ever seen Moses Thatcher at their quarterly conferences or other Church gatherings.

He has neglected the meetings of his quorum for years. This

was not always on account of ill health. He was able, at least, in the earlier part of the time, to attend to business and pleasure affairs, apparently in good health and spirits. The roll book of meetings of the Presidency and the Apostles shows that from May, 1889 to April, 1896, a period of about seven years, he was in attendance at the regular weekly meeting but 83 times. There were held 277 of those meetings, at which President Woodruff, though weighted down by age and numerous cares, was present 256 times. His absence was always on account of sickness. Brother Thatcher's residence was most of the time in Logan, but the hour was set so that he and others at a distance could have reasonable opportunity to attend.

Brother Thatcher's spirit has been contumacious and he has been self-opinionated and arbitrary. Previous to the dedication of the Temple his brethren labored with him for many hours to bring him into the proper frame of mind to unite with them in that sacred ceremony. His condition was not entirely satisfactory at the close of the protracted interview, but was accepted out of charity and mercy to him that he might not be excluded from the dedication, with the hope that the spirit of the occasion would influence him to thorough reconciliation. President Woodruff's announcement of harmony among the brethren was made with this understanding, but has been adroitly turned by Brother Thatcher to shut off all that occurred before that time, and which would not now be alluded to but for his own utterances and reference to his pretended humility and harmony.

In accepting nomination for a political office, which if elected thereto would have taken him away from his ecclesiastical duties for long periods, without consultation with his quorum and the Presidency, he could not but have known that he was violating a requirement of high officials in the Church. Yet he would not consult with them, while he was able to attend political gatherings and business meetings although in poor health. Here again he was out of harmony with his brethren.

There was no need for any loss of manhood or proper independence nor the forfeiture of any of the rights of citizenship. But if he did not value his Apostleship and Priesthood as of the very first consideration he was not worthy to hold them, and his subsequent course shows that he held them in great esteem in theory but in very small esteem in practice. Fine words and sympathetic phrases do very well to influence the public, but they count for nothing in the face of deeds that contradict them, or the failure to do that which is so rhetorically professed.

The standing and fellowship of Moses Thatcher as a member of the Church has not been brought into question, therefore there has been no trial. He has been dealt with by his quorum for lack of harmony with his associates, something that was entirely in his own power to correct without great exertion or much time. If his standing in the Church was at stake specific charges would be made, and he would have to answer

to them in the usual way, which is not and has not been by public demonstration.

What has been done was necessary and a duty. Action was not taken until it was certain that no further delay would be of any use or benefit. Moses Thatcher has been treated with greater consideration and mercy than any other man who has taken the course which he has pursued. He has been prayed for, waited upon, pleaded with and wept over until his rebellion and contumacy were seen to be invincible, and he is in open hostility to regulations which the whole Church has adopted and ratified. He could not and cannot be any longer empowered to act in the authority of the Holy Priesthood.

And now let the Latter-day Saints ponder upon the situation, and take the warning given by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a key to the Church for all time. It is as follows;

I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity. That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. -- History of Joseph Smith, July 2, 1839.

In conclusion I repeat the words of Him who spake as never man spake:

He that exalteth himself shall be abased but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Your brother in the Gospel,

Lorenzo Snow. (1)

-- Nov 30, 1896
This morning Presidents [Wilford] Woodruff and [Joseph F.] Smith met at their office with Elders L[orenzo]. Snow, F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.] and C[harles]. W. Penrose, when a communication from President Snow which he had prepared with the assistance of Brother Penrose for publication, was read and passed upon, to be published in the Deseret News of the evening, as follows:

The following correspondence needs neither explanation nor comment, save the suggestion that President Snow's letter is deserving of, and doubtless will receive, the most careful consideration of all Latter-day Saints.

Dear Brother—As there has been much discussion over the correspondence between Moses Thatcher and yourself and some of our own people are at sea in regard to the primary cause of Brother Thatcher's lack of harmony with your quorum, leading to his excommunication therefrom, in behalf of a number of such persons we pen you this communication.

We are aware that the difficulty mainly rested with the Twelve and one of its members; also that when action was taken in the case there was no need of your making further explanations. We can appreciate your abstinence from controversy, on a purely Church matter, through the public prints. But seeing that there appears to be a misapprehension of the facts in the case, and that many good people are liable, in consequence of that, to form incorrect conclusions, we respectfully ask you, if it be not inconsistent with any rule of the Church or of the Council over which you preside, to make some public statement which will serve to place this matter in its true light before the Saints, and clear away the mists which, to some at least, seem to surround the subject of Moses Thatcher's deposition. As he has given to the world the private correspondence that passed between you and him in a Church capacity, is it fair, even to yourself and your associates, to leave the matter in its present condition and open to so much misconstruction? If you would make an explanatory statement through the Deseret News, we believe it would be highly esteemed by many others, as well as

Dear Brethren:—In response to your esteemed communication of the 27th inst., I have determined, after conference with several of the Apostles, to offer some explanations on the case of Moses Thatcher and comments on the correspondence to which you refer, through the columns of the Deseret News.

The Apostles did not view the publication of the letters that passed to and from Brother Moses Thatcher and them as calling for any controversy on their part. Nor did they think it a proper thing to give those ecclesiastical communications general publicity through secular newspapers. The letters bearing my signature were not prepared with a design for publication, whatever the others might have been—and were regarded as Church matters for the consideration solely of the respective parties. It is only because those letters have been given to the public, and because it seems, from what you see, that an improper impression has been made upon the minds of some people thereby, that I comply with the request to meet some of the statements they contain.

The evident purpose in publishing those communications was to excite public sympathy; and the unnecessary and superfluous appeals they contain convey the impression that they were concocted for that purpose. They were not relevant to the issue involved. Moses Thatcher was not on trial for his fellowship. Specific charges were not preferred either in public or in private. The question was solely as to his standing as one of the Apostles, in consequence of his lack of harmony with the Quorum of the Twelve of which he was a member. That question he could have settled at any time if he had so desired, and that without a formal trial. By placing himself in harmony with his Quorum, in the spirit of humility and conformity with its rules, of which he was not in ignorance, he could have saved himself all the trouble and deprivation of which he complains.

In his review of what he calls his case, he lays great stress on the matter of the Declaration of Principles, which he refused to sign after it had received the endorsement of the First Presidency, the Apostles (excepting himself), the Seven Presidents of the Seventies, the Patriarch, and the Presiding Bishopric, comprising the general authorities of the Church. His excuse is that he had only about an hour and thirty minutes in which to consider it. Usually men do not require much time to consider a matter which they have always held to be right. There was nothing new in that document as it relates to Church discipline. It contains that which has always been an established doctrine of the Church. When the committee which prepared it submitted it to the other Church authorities, they signed it after reading without hesitation and without requiring time to deliberate. It embodies so manifestly a conceded and necessary rule that every one in harmony with the Church authorities accepted it at once, and the Church as a body has received and adopted it as an essential rule. Why should Moses Thatcher alone, of all the Church authorities, feel that he could not sign it as he alleges, "without stultification?" Was not that in itself evidence that he was and had been out of harmony with his brethren? And are they not men as little disposed as any one living to stultify themselves, or to assent to anything wrong that is of vital importance to them and to the Church?

He charges that his letter refusing to sign the Declaration was "suppressed." There was no suppression in the matter at all. The letter was not addressed to the Conference nor to the public. Out of mercy and compassion to him no reference was made to his contumacy at the April Conference, but his name was simply dropped from the list of authorities presented. How could he have been sustained under the circumstances? There are six of the Twelve now living who voted for his appointment to the Apostleship. Not one of them would have sustained him for that position if it had been known that he then entertained views entirely out of harmony with those of that body. The letter addressed at that time to his associates was a deliberately composed communication showing that he was able to understand the

200 document which he refused to sign, and his prompt publication of that letter, in a secular newspaper, shows that he had a deliberate intention to oppose the Declaration and defy his brethren who promulg[at]ed it. But if he did not have sufficient time to consider the Declaration at the April Conference, what about the six months which elapsed before the October Conference? Was not that time enough? During that interval he was visited by many of his brethren, some of them Apostles, and no change was effected, but he failed even to attend the October Conference or to manifest a disposition to conform to the principle of the Declaration.

It is true that he was in poor bodily health during that period. But he was not too ill to upbraid brethren who tried to impress him with the danger of his position, nor to accuse some of them of having "blanketed their conscience" in signing the Declaration.

He states in his letters that he would have attended the October Conference if it had not been for the "assurances and reassurances" he had received that nothing would be done concerning his standing until his health should be restored. He then complains bitterly of the explanation given to the Conference as to his position and seeks to convey the impression that they were a breach of good faith.

The "assurances" to which he refers were faithfully fulfilled. He was left in statu quo. Every time it was shown that the condition of his health would not admit of his meeting with his quorum the question of his standing was postponed. But meanwhile he and his friends were not slow to talk about his associates and to convey unwarranted impressions concerning their course in his case. So much misunderstanding was thereby created that it became absolutely necessary to make some explanations that the Latter-day Saints might not be deceived. President Woodruff was so strongly impressed with this that he addressed the Conference on the subject and his statements were endorsed by several of the Twelve who followed him.

This was no "trial" of Moses Thatcher. It was simply a necessary explanation of his status. It involved the question of his lack of harmony with the Church authorities. His claims that he was publicly accused and therefore should have a public trial is astonishingly absurd. He was not accused in the sense of a trial or investigation. The act of his lack of harmony with the authorities was explained and shown to be of much earlier date than his refusal to sign the Declaration and his engaging in active politics. To place himself in harmony with the Twelve, or refuse to do so, required no "trial" either public or private. He did neither. Yet the assurances given him which he misconstrues were observed and his "case" was not called up until he was able to appear.

It was but a few days after the Conference, even if it had entirely closed, before he appeared and spoke at public meetings as though he still held the authority in which he had not been sustained at Conference. This necessitated the announcement from the First Presidency through the Deseret News that he had no right to officiate in the Priesthood while in his suspended condition.

Notwithstanding that announcement, when he chose to present himself to the authorities he presumed to attempt entrance to the temple for that purpose, and at a time when the First Presidency as well as the Twelve met for the consideration of other Church matters and for holding their prayer circle. No one could attend but those of their own body

201 or even enter the House unless in good standing. No member of the Church without the proper recommend can obtain admittance to the Temple, no matter how much he may have contributed to its erection. That would cut no figure at all in the right of entrance. It is amazing that Moses Thatcher should attempt to intrude the boast of his contributions into the question of entering the Temple of God when not in good standing and full fellowship.

His exclusion from the Temple he construes into being "denied the privilege of meeting with the quorum." No one knew better than he that there was no such denial. The assurance given him by Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards and others of the quorum was proof of their willingness to meet him and their joy at his manifestation of even a desire to meet them. That there were other places and occasions when he could properly have an interview with his brethren he fully understood, and he subsequently applied for it as he should have done long before.

In passing I will notice his technical quibble about the closing of the Temple against him on October 15th for his disregard of my letter of October 23rd, which he says is hard for him to understand. A careful reading of my letter will show that the difficulty is of his own manufacture. What I said conveys no such meaning as he asserts. I said, "This being the condition of affairs you were not admitted to the Temple on the forenoon of Thursday." "The condition of affairs" which caused that exclusion is set forth in the first paragraph of my letter, and relates to occurrences before the 15th. It is true that my letter of the 23rd in rely to his of the 16th is incidentally mentioned but only as something growing out of what happened on the 15th, and of course was not intended to apply as a condition existing before that date. This perversion of plain language shows what small evasions will be resorted to when one gets into the dark.

Reference to the Conference discourses published in the Deseret News was made that Brother Thatcher might know exactly what the brethren said, that he might see the necessity there was for the people to understand where he stood, and that he might see the need of putting himself in harmony with the Church authorities.

It is necessary to notice his complaint that he had not been invited to attend the meeting at which final action was taken in his case. In his letter dated November 4th, he says:

I returned to this city Thursday—a week ago tomorrow—and have daily

expected to hear respecting a time when I could see the brethren once more together.

No word having reached me respecting that matter, I adopt this means of respectfully

asking you when such meeting can be arranged. As early a reply as convenient will

greatly oblige,

Your brother in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher.

To this I replied, as has been published, under date of November 6:

In accordance with your wishes for a meeting, I take pleasure in appointing 2

o'clock on Thursday next at the Historian's Office, upon which occasion the quorum

will be pleased to meet with you. With kindest regards, your brother and fellow

servant,

Lorenzo Snow.

On the day thus appointed the Apostles met, at the time and place thus designated,

202 when they received his lengthy communication dated Nov[ember]. 11, in which he said:

I shall not trouble my brethren therefore to convene in a special meeting

named for Thursday at 2 p.m. at the Historian's Office.

Thereupon the Council of the Apostles gave him one week more, and notified him that his case would be called up for action at a meeting to be held in the Historian's office at 10 a.m. on Thursday, the 19th inst., as appears in my letter, published by him with the other correspondence.

When that day arrived we received his last letter in which he said:

As there is to be no trial of my case and as I am not requested to be present, I

take it to be the purpose of considering my case, etc.

Why should there have been any further tampering with the case? Moses Thatcher was entirely out of harmony with his brethren the Apostles. He was simply requested to put himself in accord with them as is required by the Gospel and the order of the councils of the Priesthood. That he declined to do. After asking for a time and place to be appointed when he could meet with them, and in response to that request a time and place were set, and the Apostles came from distant points for the purpose of meeting with him, instead of appearing he coolly notified them by letter that he would "not trouble them to convene!" Then when they gave him another week in which to appear, and notified him that his case would be called up for consideration and action, he still treated the Council with contempt and asserted: "I am not requested to be present."

That the Council of the Apostles took the only consistent action that was left open must be evident to every Latter-day Saint who has eyes to see and a heart to understand. Why Moses Thatcher did not meet with his brethren, after they had assembled at his own request, is best known to himself. Notwithstanding his past course they were ready to receive him with open arms if he had come in the proper spirit and put himself in accord with them. As he would not, they expelled him from the Priesthood as they were in duty bound to do.

It should be known that the disaffection of Moses Thatcher dates back to a time long before political difficulties could enter into the matter. President Woodruff has stated publicly that Moses Thatcher had not been in full harmony with his quorum since the death of President John Taylor. trouble was had with him before that time.

In 1886 he proclaimed in public discourses ideas and predictions not endorsed by his brethren. At Lewiston, Cache county [Utah], notes were taken of these utterances and published on a flyer. He was subsequently written to by President [John] Taylor, and his answer is on file. While he claimed that he had not been accurately reported, he gave his own language, under his own hand, to the effect of predictions of events to occur within five years, which have failed of fulfilment and which were founded on erroneous interpretations of Scripture. He wrote for publication a sort of retraction which really took nothing back but merely charged partial errors in the report of his extravagant remarks.

He was out of harmony with his brethren in relation to a standing appellate High Council, which he claimed should be appointed and which he has never acknowledged was incorrect.

He disputed with President Taylor as to the appointment of President of the Logan [Utah] Temple and contended for a man of his own selection, even after the President

203 announced the appointment by revelation.

His bearing with his brethren of the Twelve was such that he could not brook dissent and resented their non-acceptance of his personal views.

When Wilford Woodruff's accession to the Presidency was under consideration, as the proper successor, he expressed opinions which showed that he regarded human smartness and business ability as above that simplicity of character and susceptibility to divine impressions which are notable in that faithful servant of God, and objected that such a man could not grasp the situation of affairs or cope with the difficulties arising. He was overruled but persisted in his views.

When President George Q. Cannon, after the decease of President Taylor, was in prison for infraction of the anti-polygamy laws, Moses claimed that Brother Cannon had defrauded him, and he threatened in the presence of President Woodruff and others of the Twelve to sue him at law and thus bring many private affairs before the public through the courts. Only on being emphatically warned by President Woodruff and others that such a course, particularly in Brother Cannon's condition, would result disastrously to him in his Church position did he desist. On President Cannon's release from confinement the matter was fully investigated and it was demonstrated that instead of Brother Cannon's owing him he was in Brother Cannon's debt to an amount which he subsequently paid. For his insult and hard language towards Brother Cannon, he has never apologized nor made any amends. This incident is referred to in President Cannon's absence from the State. He has always preserved silence on this matter and did not wish it to be mentioned against Brother Thatcher. But it is important as showing Moses Thatcher's spirit and bearing towards his brethren.

Brother Thatcher makes great pretension of devotion to the Church and declares he has "never shirked any responsibility." The people in many of the various Stakes of Zion who have been visited by the Apostles may ask themselves when they have ever seen Moses Thatcher at their quarterly conferences or other Church gatherings.

He has neglected the meetings of his quorum for years. This was not always on account of ill health. He was able, at least, in the earlier part of the time, to attend to business and pleasure affairs, apparently in good health and spirits. The roll book of meetings of the Presidency and the Apostles shows that from May, 1889 to April, 1896, a period of about seven years, he was in attendance at the regular weekly meeting but 83 times. There were held 277 of those meetings, at which President Woodruff, though weighted down by age and numerous cares, was present 256 times. His absence was always on account of sickness. Brother Thatcher's residence was most of the time in Logan, but the hour was set so that he and others at a distance could have reasonable opportunity to attend.

Brother Thatcher's spirit has been contumacious and he has been self-opinionated and arbitrary. Previous to the dedication of the Temple his brethren labored with him for many hours to bring him into the proper frame of mind to unite with them in that sacred ceremony. His condition was not entirely satisfactory at the close of the protracted interview, but was accepted out of charity and mercy to him that he might not be excluded from the dedication, with the hope that the spirit of the occasion would influence him to thorough reconciliation. President Woodruff's announcement of harmony among the brethren was made with this understanding, but has been adroitly turned by Brother Thatcher to shut off all that occurred

204 before that time, and which would not now be alluded to but for his own utterances and reference to his pretended humility and harmony.

In accepting nomination for a political office, which if elected thereto would have taken him away from his ecclesiastical duties for long periods, without consultation with his quorum and the Presidency, he could not but have known that he was violating a requirement of high officials in the Church. Yet he would not consult with them, while he was able to attend political gatherings and business meetings although in poor health. Here again he was out of harmony with his brethren.

There was no need for any loss of manhood or proper independence nor the forfeiture of any of the rights of citizenship. But if he did not value his Apostleship and Priesthood as of the very first consideration he was not worthy to hold them, and his subsequent course shows that he held them in great esteem in theory but in very small esteem in practice. Fine words and sympathetic phrases do very well to influence the public, but they count for nothing in the face of deeds that contradict them, or the failure to do that which is so rhetorically professed.

The standing and fellowship of Moses Thatcher as a member of the Church has not been brought into question, therefore there has been no trial. He has been dealt with by his quorum for lack of harmony with his associates, something that was entirely in his own power to correct without great exertion or much time. If his standing in the Church was at stake specific charges would be made, and he would have to answer to them in the usual way, which is not and has not been by public demonstration.

What has been done was necessary and a duty. Action was not taken until it was certain that no further delay would be of any use or benefit. Moses Thatcher has been treated with greater consideration and mercy than any other man who has taken the course which he has pursued. He has been prayed for, waited upon, pleaded with and wept over until his rebellion and contumacy were seen to be invincible, and he is in open hostility to regulations which the whole Church has adopted and ratified. He could not and cannot be any longer empowered to act in the authority of the Holy Priesthood.

And now let the Latter-day Saints ponder upon the situation, and take the warning given by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a key to the Church for all time. It is as follows;

I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity. That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.—History of Joseph Smith, July 2, 1839.

In conclusion I repeat the words of Him who spake as never man spake:

He that exalteth himself shall be abased but he that humbleth himself shall be

exalted.

Your brother in the Gospel,

Lorenzo Snow.

205 Listened to reading of a letter from President L[orenzo]. Snow, by C[harles] W Penrose to appear in this evening's "[Deseret Evening] News" A statement of circumstances in which Moses Thatcher been not in harmony with his brethren Apostles several years was published in This Evening News. (2)

-- Nov 28, 1896; Saturday
President W[ilford]. Woodruff was at his office this morning by special appointment to meet the Russian gentleman, Hatchaddor Mardirosian, who had come to investigate Mormonism. By invitation Elders Lorenzo Snow, F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.] and C[harles]. W. Penrose were present, also Elder F[erdinand]. F. Hintze as interpreter. The Russian informed the brethren that he belonged to a body of people numbering about 30,000, and although he had not come by appointment as their representative, yet they knew of his coming to this country and his purpose, and would receive from him as true whatever he might report. He claimed that the voice of the spirit directed him about three years ago to come among the Mormon

people, and it had taken him all that time to work his way and obtain means to pay his way here. He occupied a prominent position in the religious association to which he belonged, but desired to support himself while here, by working as a shoemaker. Brother Hintze regarded him as very sincere, and as coming here through the workings of the spirit of the Lord upon his mind. The people where he came from believed in the workings of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Gospel, but did not seem to grasp the idea of divine authority in the Priesthood. After a long conversation, the gentleman expressed his belief that the brethren with whom he had conversed were men of God. He was encouraged to seek for and learn the truth, as led by the spirit, and by Brother Hintze and Brother Markoff who had him in charge. (1)

-- Nov 28, 1896
[Thomas A. Clawson Diary] "Today Bro Nephi L. Morris brought a petition to Prest. Lorenzo Snow asking if it was consistant with the Quorum of the Twelve and the order of the church, that there be a statement made of their side of reasons why Moses Thatcher was expelled from his Quorum. I signed it believing that ti would be good for the saints to know the true inwardness of the matter inasmuch as Moses had made public the private correspondence between himself and the quorum of the Twelve." (2)

-- Nov 25, 1896
A Russian named Hatchador Hardirosian called on the First Presidency today, with a letter from S. H. Abkerian, M.D., of 1634 Lexington Ave., New York City. He was able to converse in Armenian and Turkish, as well as in Russian. He claimed to belong to a religious society in the Southern dominions of the Russian Empire, who believed in Jesus Christ, but not in the Greek Church, and who had made his way to New York, and thence to S[alt]. L[ake]. City for the purpose of studying the Mormon religion. He supplied his necessities by working at shoe making, and professed to be led by the Spirit to seek out the Mormons. Elder F[erdinand]. F. Hintze was communicated with, and the man was put in his charge, being able to converse with him in Turkish.

Bro[ther] George Reynolds explained to me in detail regarding the dedicating of the Bullion Beck Mining Stock, and Moses Thatcher rebelling against the plan. That the first trouble commenced when Moses Thatcher preached in Cache Co[unty]. [Utah] especially about Joseph Smith being resurrected, and being raised up like as Moses to lead us out of bondage &c. The brethren of the Authorities called him to question but he never felt right about it. [November 26, 1896; Journal History; Franklin D. Richards, Diary; Brigham Young Jr., Diary; J. Golden Kimball, Diary]

Thanksgiving Day. A special meeting was held at the office of the First Presidency. There were present: Presidents W[ilford]. Woodruff, G[eorge]. Q. Cannon, J[oseph]. F. Smith, L[orenzo]. Snow, Elders F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.], S[eymour]. B. Young, J[ohn]. H[enry]. Smith, H[eber]. J. Grant, J[ohn]. W. Taylor, J. G[olden]. Kimball, C[harles]. W. Penrose, and R[obert]. S. Campbell. The subject of the indisposition of many of the Latter Day Saints to be guided by the authorities of the Church in matters not regarded as spiritual was considered. The following which Moses Thatcher appeared to have, particularly in politics, was also dwelt upon, and all present took part in the conversation. The course pursued by Moses Thatcher in reference to Pres[iden]t. Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon was also ventilated.

President Woodruff stated that ever since the death of President John Taylor Brother Moses Thatcher had been influenced by an apostate spirit. It took Brother Thatcher about a week to confess Brother Cannon's sins for him, without making any confession whatever of his own. He had indulged that spirit more or less ever since. During those trying times he was closely associated with President Cannon and he could testify that the spirit which animated Brother Cannon was a righteous and forgiving spirit, and the spirit which animated Brother Thatcher was of the evil one. Brother Thatcher undertook to control the Apostles and run things generally, and was able for a while to influence two or three of the Twelve. Brother Thatcher had come to him when Brother Cannon was in prison and declared he was going to sue Brother Cannon before the law. Such an expression from an Apostle struck him (Brother Woodruff) like a clap of thunder. But it showed the spirit Brother Thatcher was of. He told Brother Thatcher that if he carried out his threat, it would be the worst pill he ever took in his life. The unfortunate part of it was that Brother Thatcher never repented of it.

President Snow said what President Woodruff had stated was true, and the brethren of the Twelve understood that President Woodruff had sounded the key note of Brother Thatcher's apostasy. He believed firmly that all the trouble that had come on Brother Thatcher had arisen in consequence of his spirit and conduct towards Brother Cannon. President Snow said he thought the course pursued by Brother Thatcher in the Bullion-Beck business ought to be fully exposed.

President Woodruff called attention to the fact that when Brother Cannon came out of prison, and the matter between Brother Thatcher and him was investigated, it was found that instead of Brother Cannon having anything in his possession belonging to Brother Thatcher, the latter owed Brother Cannon about $100.

President Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon said it was due to him that the idea should be corrected that there was any personal difficulty between himself and Brother Thatcher. He had nothing personally against him, and he desired the brethren present to understand this, and as far as they could, to inform others, that he might not be held in a false position.

Elder Heber J. Grant confessed that he at one time had been led by Brother Thatcher into a wrong spirit, and that Elder Erastus Snow, who at first seemed to favor Brother Thatcher's views, emphatically warned Moses Thatcher and himself (Brother Grant) that unless they repented the spirit they were of would lead them away from the quorum of the Apostles. From that very time, Brother Grant said, he had avoided being led by the spirit that was in Brother Thatcher, who he had learned to love and in whom he had placed great confidence. But, Brother Grant said, Brother Thatcher was a covenant breaker. He had solemnly agreed that 60% of the means he had invested in the Bullion- Beck Company should be dedicated to the Lord, for the use of the church under direction of the President, and he demanded that stock after the death of President Taylor, and it was through that the heirs of President Taylor had also demanded their dedicated stock, and then John Beck had demanded his. Brother Thatcher had also covenanted with the other Apostles to conform to the Word of Wisdom, but he had made a practice of breaking it openly.

Brother J. Golden Kimball stated that in a conversation with Brother Thatcher after he had declined to sign the declaration of principles, he complained that he had only had a little over an hour to consider it. To this Brother Kimball answered that the authorities of the Church had no desire to crowd him, and spoke of the kindly feeling and charity they had exhibited, whereupon Brother Thatcher became much excited, and on Brother Kimball's stating that he was now in closer touch with the First Presidency, and had a better understanding of their spirit and purpose than in times past, Brother Thatcher became very angry, and exclaimed: "I want to say to you Golden Kimball, you were furnished a blanket by the authorities of the Church to blanket your conscience, when you signed that document. For you know they have used Church influence". Brother Kimball added that some time ago his friends in Cache Valley [Utah] put his name forward as a candidate for the Legislature, but that his candidacy was defeated through Brother Thatcher's telling the leaders of the party in that county that the authorities of the Church did not want him to go to the Legislature, and he (Brother Kimball) had since ascertained that Brother Thatcher had used their name to defeat him without their authority or knowledge.

The subject of Brother Thatcher's candidacy for the United States Senatorship was fully considered, and it was unanimously decided that it would be a calamity to have Brother Thatcher elected to that position upon the platform which he had put forth, in opposition to the Church and its discipline, and as an advocate and representative of that opposition.

President Woodruff said he knew that if the people would receive it the mind of the Lord was that we should be represented in the Senate of the United States by Brother George Q. Cannon. If this could not be effected under present political conditions, it would at any rate be wrong to support a man for that position who while professing membership in the church, was yet in hostility to its established discipline.

The brethren present were all favorable to the idea of President Cannon's representing Utah in the Upper House of Congress, but were of the opinion that this could not be effected without a positive announcement such as the Presidency did not feel inclined to make.

It was decided that every proper effort should be made to have the brethren who were elected to the Legislature to go there un pledged to any individual, and to counteract the influence that had been used by the emissaries of Moses Thatcher to bind the members of the Legislature to his support.

The following brethren were appointed to see that this was done: namely, F[ranklin]. S. Richards, C[harles]. W. Penrose, J. G[olden]. Kimball, John Henry Smith and H[eber]. J. Grant.

At 9.30 met in Council 3 presidents, L[orenzo] Snow, F[ranklin]. D. R[ichards]. B[righam]. Y[oung]. [Jr.] J[ohn]. H[enry]. S[mith]. H[eber]. J. G[rant]. J[ohn]. W. T[aylor]. J. G[olden]. Kimball, F[ranklin]. S. Richards, C[harles]. W. Penrose, Robert S. Campbell. (G[eorge]. F. Gibbs reporter[)] Pres[iden]t. W[ilford]. W[oodruff]. stated that Pres[iden]t [George Q.] Cannon will be absent for a while & he wished us to consider some important matters—it being represented that Moses Thatcher would try hard to get elected Senator. It appearing impracticable to run G[eorge]. Q. C[annon]. or any other Churchman of Senator it seemed favorable to give our support to Judge P. H. Henderson. We must prevent M[oses]. T[hatcher]. election if possible. Senator F[rank] J Cannon, his wife, his mother & their 2 children left for Washington DC.

Meeting in office at 9.30. Presidency Pres[ident] [Lorenzo] Snow & [Franklin D.] Richards Jno [John] H[enry]. S[mith]. H[eber]. J. G[rant]. of Twelve and several others present. fully decided in equity we should morally support a gentile as Senator to U.S. Much other business done. Cold weather, I feel it severely. I spoke in the meeting advising that we wait upon the Lord and seek His blessing and special aid for we are not fully satisfied just what we can do for apparently we are powerless in this wild political turmoil.

Was notified to be at the Presidents at 9.30 a.m. When I arrived there found, Pres[ident]. Wilford Woodruff, [George Q.] Cannon and [Joseph F.] Smith. Pres[ident]. Lorenzo Snow, Apostle [Franklin D.] Richards, Brigham Young [Jr.], John Henry Smith, Heber J. Grant, and John W Taylor. Also F[ranklin] S Richards, Robert Campbell.

The question to be considered was as to the advisability of opposing Moses Thatchers election as a Senator to Congress. He was being sustained by many enemies to the Church, and sustained because he was not in harmony with the Pres[idency] of the Church and the Twelve Apostles. B. H. Roberts was just as much of an idol of the Democratic party as Moses Thatcher, and more so. but as soon as he harmonized with his brethren and accepted the rule of discipline, the Democratic party had no further use for him. When I speak of the Democratic party in these cases I speak of men that are enemies to the Church of Jesus Christ. Moses Thatcher appealed to Young Utah to aid him in vindicating the cause for which he had contended, and to assist him in keeping the chains from being forged upon the people of this state.

The L[atter] D[ay] Saints can sustain and assist an honest Gentile but cannot reward a man that was once an Apostle, and is now an enemy to the Brethren of the Authorities, and I claim also the Church, in being elected to so high an office. Yet it has no happened that such a Legislators, which some few exceptions cannot be reached because they are so loyal to O[rlando]. W. Powers, Jo[s]e[ph] Rawlins, and Moses Thatcher, all avowed enemies to the C[hurh] of J[esus]. C[hrist]. of L[atter]. D[ay]. S[aints]. Robert Sloan was just elected as chairman of the Utah State Democratic Committee. A meaner, more contemptable, gambler, whore monger and dishonest scoundrel of a Mormon parentage could not be found in all Zion. Yet the church must stand still and witness such ungodly sights. This council of men were together until 3 P.M. Much plain talk was indulged in. It was explained the intense feeling that has been worked up against Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon. He was dumbfounded and wept. Moses Thatcher had waged a war against Bro[ther] Cannon for many years, and his stories were believed by many. I am fully convinced that such stories are false, and that Geo[rge]. Q. will be vindicated and Moses Thatcher will apostatize. I learned many things that it is not wise for me to write, but they will be written, and men that do others injury and hurt, will in this Church, be removed from their places. Apostles John Henry Smith, Heber J. Grant, and C[harles]. W. Penrose, F[ranklin]. S. Richards and myself were appointed to act as a committee in adopting some plan to defeat Moses Thatchers election, and do so without the Church dominating the State. (1)

-- Nov 26, 1896; Thursday
Thanksgiving Day. A special meeting was held at the office of the First Presidency. There were present: Presidents W[ilford]. Woodruff, G[eorge]. Q. Cannon, J[oseph]. F. Smith, L[orenzo]. Snow, Elders F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.], S[eymour]. B. Young, J[ohn]. H[enry]. Smith, H[eber]. J. Grant, J[ohn]. W. Taylor, J. G[olden]. Kimball, C[harles]. W. Penrose, and R[obert]. S. Campbell. The subject of the indisposition of many of the Latter Day Saints to be guided by the authorities of the Church in matters not regarded as spiritual was considered. The following which Moses Thatcher appeared to have, particularly in politics, was also dwelt upon, and all present took part in the conversation. The course pursued by Moses Thatcher in reference to Pres[iden]t. Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon was also ventilated.

President Woodruff stated that ever since the death of President John Taylor Brother Moses Thatcher had been influenced by an apostate spirit. It took Brother Thatcher about a week to confess Brother Cannon's sins for him, without making any confession whatever of his own. He had indulged that spirit more or less ever since. During those trying times he was closely associated with President Cannon and he could testify that the spirit which animated Brother Cannon was a righteous and forgiving spirit, and the spirit which animated Brother Thatcher was of the evil one. Brother Thatcher undertook to control the Apostles and run things generally, and was able for a while to influence two or three of the Twelve. Brother Thatcher had come to him when Brother Cannon was in prison and declared he was going to sue Brother Cannon before the law. Such an expression from an Apostle struck him (Brother Woodruff) like a clap of thunder. But it showed the spirit Brother Thatcher was of. He told Brother Thatcher that if he carried out his threat, it would be the worst pill he ever took

in his life. The unfortunate part of it was that Brother Thatcher never repented of it.

President Snow said what President Woodruff had stated was true, and the brethren of the Twelve understood that President Woodruff had sounded the key note of Brother Thatcher's apostasy. He believed firmly that all the trouble that had come on Brother Thatcher had arisen in consequence of his spirit and conduct towards Brother Cannon. President Snow said he thought the course pursued by Brother Thatcher in the Bullion-Beck business ought to be fully exposed.

President Woodruff called attention to the fact that when Brother Cannon came out of prison, and the matter between Brother Thatcher and him was investigated, it was found that instead of Brother Cannon having anything in his possession belonging to Brother Thatcher, the latter owed Brother Cannon about $100.

President Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon said it was due to him that the idea should be corrected that there was any personal difficulty between himself and Brother Thatcher. He had nothing personally against him, and he desired the brethren present to understand this, and as far as they could, to inform others, that he might not be held in a false position.

Elder Heber J. Grant confessed that he at one time had been led by Brother Thatcher into a wrong spirit, and that Elder Erastus Snow, who at first seemed to favor Brother Thatcher's views, emphatically warned Moses Thatcher and himself (Brother Grant) that unless they repented the spirit they were of would lead them away from the quorum of the Apostles. From that very time, Brother Grant said, he had avoided being led by the spirit that was in Brother Thatcher, who he had learned to love and in whom he had placed great confidence. But, Brother Grant said, Brother Thatcher was a covenant breaker. He had solemnly agreed that 60% of the means he had invested in the Bullion-Beck Company should be dedicated to the Lord, for the use of the church under direction of the President, and he demanded that stock after the death of President Taylor, and it was through that the heirs of President Taylor had also demanded their dedicated stock, and then John Beck had demanded his. Brother Thatcher had also covenanted with the other Apostles to conform to the Word of Wisdom, but he had made a practice of breaking it openly.

Brother J. Golden Kimball stated that in a conversation with Brother Thatcher after he had declined to sign the declaration of principles, he complained that he had only had a little over an hour to consider it. To this Brother Kimball answered that the authorities of the Church had no desire to crowd him, and spoke of the kindly feeling and charity they had exhibited, whereupon Brother Thatcher became much excited, and on Brother Kimball's stating that he was now in closer touch with the First Presidency, and had a better understanding of their spirit and purpose than in times past, Brother Thatcher became very angry, and exclaimed: "I want to say to you Golden Kimball, you were furnished a blanket by the authorities of the Church to blanket your conscience, when you signed that document. For you know they have used Church influence". Brother Kimball added that some time ago his friends in Cache Valley [Utah] put his name forward as a candidate for the

Legislature, but that his candidacy was defeated through Brother Thatcher's telling the leaders of the party in that county that the authorities of the Church did not want him to go to the Legislature, and he (Brother Kimball) had since ascertained that Brother Thatcher had used their name to defeat him without their authority or knowledge.

The subject of Brother Thatcher's candidacy for the United States Senatorship was fully considered, and it was unanimously decided that it would be a calamity to have Brother Thatcher elected to that position upon the platform which he had put forth, in opposition to the Church and its discipline, and as an advocate and representative of that opposition.

President Woodruff said he knew that if the people would receive it the mind of the Lord was that we should be represented in the Senate of the United States by Brother George Q. Cannon. If this could not be effected under present political conditions, it would at any rate be wrong to support a man for that position who while professing membership in the church, was yet in hostility to its established discipline.

The brethren present were all favorable to the idea of President Cannon's representing Utah in the Upper House of Congress, but were of the opinion that this could not be effected without a positive announcement such as the Presidency did not feel inclined to make.

It was decided that every proper effort should be made to have the brethren who were elected to the Legislature to go there un pledged to any individual, and to counteract the influence that had been used by the emissaries of Moses Thatcher to bind the members of the Legislature to his support.

The following brethren were appointed to see that this was done: namely, F[ranklin]. S. Richards, C[harles]. W. Penrose, J. G[olden]. Kimball, John Henry Smith and H[eber]. J. Grant. (2)

-- Nov 19, 1896
[Apostle Franklin D. Richards Diary] At 10 am the following named Apostles met in upper room of Historian's Office building; viz Lorenzo Snow, FS Richards, B. Young, FM Lyman, JH Smith, G. Teasdale, HJ Grant, JW Taylor, MW Merrill & AH Lund and considered the case of Moses Thatcher--after which it was decided, that he be severed from the Council of the 12 Apostles & that he be deprived of his Apostleship & other offices in the Priesthood & that the same be published in the DE News. Every member participated. A sad & sorrowful day's labor for us. (1)

-- Nov 19, 1896; Thursday
At 10 o'clock this morning the special meeting appointed to consider and take action upon the case of Brother Moses Thatcher convened at the Historian's office. There were present the following Apostles: Lorenzo Snow, F[ranklin]. D. Richards, Brigham Young [Jr.], Francis M. Lyman, John Henry Smith, Geo[rge]. Teasdale, Heber J. Grant, John W. Taylor, Mar[r]iner W[ood]. Merrill and Anthon H. Lund; also Geo[rge]. F. Gibbs, reporter.

It was nearly half past ten before President Snow called the meeting to order. A few minutes before that hour a son of Bro[ther]. Thatcher came to the room bearing a letter to President Snow from his father. After President Snow had opened it and read its contents, he then expressed himself to the effect that evidently Brother Thatcher did not want to meet with his quorum, and by way of informing the brethren present of what had passed between himself and Brother Thatcher in the shape of written communications, he requested Elder Richards to read the following letters, which explain themselves:

No 101 West North Temple St., Salt Lake City, Utah,

November 17th, 1896.

Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Twelve Apostles.

Dear Brother: --

On the 11th inst. I wrote you a somewhat lengthy letter in which, after reviewing my case, I asked that the same publicity be given my defence as that given to the complaints and accusations made against me. My son George F. Thatcher delivered to you that communication about 10 o'clock A.M., the following day. At noon on the 13th inst. Brother Isaac Smith of the Cache [Utah] Stake Presidency handed me a letter from you, of which the following is a copy:

Salt Lake Temple, Salt Lake City, Nov[ember]. 12, 1896.

Elder Moses Thatcher,

Logan [Utah].

Dear Brother: --

This is to notify you that at a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles held today it was resolved that as you are not in fellowship with the Council, your case will be called up for consideration and action at a meeting to be held for that purpose at 10 A.M. on Thursday, 19th inst., at the Historian's Office, this city.

With kind regards,

Your brother,

Lorenzo Snow.

As no reference is made to my communication of the 11th inst., in yours of the 12th, I am in doubt as to whether the letter was intended to be a reply to the former or not; but as no word has reached me I suppose I should so regard it, especially in view of the fact that the action of the Apostles respecting my case was evidently taken after the delivery to you of my letter of the 11th inst. You say: "Your case will be called up for consideration and action at a meeting to be held for that purpose at 10 A.M. on Thursday, the 19th inst". Am I warranted in concluding that you intended that declaration to be a denial of my request for a public hearing? And if so, am I to understand that "consideration" and "action" mean that my trial will commence on the date and at the time and place mentioned? If that is the intention, am I, as heretofore directed by you, to defend myself against or plead to the charges as published in the Deseret Evening News of October 17th? if so will the charges be presented one at a time, or considered as a whole? In either event will those making the charges be present to hear my witnesses? Will I be permitted to bring with me and introduce the testimony of those willing to testify in my behalf? Is the "Manifesto" regarding church discipline in political affairs and for the failure to sign it, which it was understood at the time I was suspended from exercising the functions of the Apostleship, to be introduced as any part of the charges against me? As I will have to call witnesses from various points, I shall greatly appreciate as early a reply as possible.

Very respectfully,

Your brother in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher.

To the foregoing communication President Snow said he made the following reply:

Salt Lake City, Nov[ember]. 18th, 1896.

Elder Moses Thatcher,

City.

Dear Brother: --

I am in receipt of your letter of the 17th inst. in which you advise me of the receipt by you of a communication signed by myself on behalf of the Quorum of the Twelve, and dated Nov[ember]. 12th. You ask whether my letter was intended to be a reply to the former communication which you sent to me, in which you had requested a public hearing of your case; and you further ask if you are warranted in concluding that that letter was a denial of your request for this public hearing? You also ask, if this be so, are you to understand that "consideration" and "action" mean that your trial will commence on the day and at the time and place mentioned; and further, if that is the intention are you to defend yourself against or plead to the charges as published in the Deseret Evening News of October 17th, and if so, will the charges be presented one at a time or considered as a whole; also in either event, will those making the charges be present to

hear your witnesses, and will you be permitted to bring with you and introduce the testimonies of those willing to testify in your behalf. You further ask whether the document regarding church discipline, which you failed to sign, will be introduced as pat of the charges against you.

In reply to these queries I have to say that the Quorum of the Apostles do not consider your request for a public hearing a proper one, and for this reason: It is not your standing in the Church that is at issue, but your fellowship with the brethren of your own quorum. This is the business to be settled between yourself and us, and when this is settled satisfactorily there will be no difficulty remaining concerning the document on church discipline. You have been informed on several occasions that the members of your quorum could not fellowship your spirit and conduct. Several of them have waited upon you and informed you that the Twelve felt you should make amends and take proper steps to restore yourself to their fellowship. This, therefore, is not a matter for the general public, nor for the presence of witnesses. You yourself are the principal party interested, and if you can take the necessary steps--which are altogether within your own power, there need not be the least difficulty about your having the fellowship of your fellow Apostles. This has always been the course taken in our church from the beginning to the present time. If the question of your fellowship with the church should be brought forward at any time, it will then be for the church to give you such a hearing as will enable its members to express themselves as to whether they will hold you in fellowship or not. With kind regards,

Your Brother,

Lorenzo Snow.

The following letter was then read which was a few minutes previous received from Brother Thatcher, by the hand of his son, George F.:

101 North West Temple St., Salt Lake City,

November 18th 1896.

Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Quorum of Twelve.

Dear Brother: --

Your esteemed favor of even date replying to my letter of yesterday was handed me this evening, and its contents have been carefully considered. As there is to be no trial of my case, and as I am not requested to be present, I take it to be the purpose, as heretofore notified, that the Quorum meet on the morrow for the purpose of considering my case and determining what I must do before I can again enjoy the fellowship of my brethren of the Twelve Apostles. Beyond the public action taken at the Annual Conference on the 7th of April last, which suspended me within a few hours after my failure to sign the document regarding Church discipline on political matters, and your citation to the remarks of the brethren as published in the Deseret News on Oct[ober]. 17th, about me, I know of nothing upon which to found requirements in my case, and since judgment in those matters has already

been passed, the necessity of presenting through witnesses or otherwise any defence in my behalf seems obviated. I can therefore only wait with great concern and deep anxiety your findings, specifying the conditions upon which I may regain the fellowship of my brethren and restoration to the official position heretofore held in the Church and the duties and obligations of which I have sought earnestly, honestly and prayerfully to discharge. The thought of the permanent loss of that exalted position and of your fellowship, and of the consequent humiliation and bitterness that may follow are very dreadful,--I shrink from their contemplation. It seems a sad ending, a fruitless reward for thirty years or more of earnest and devoted work, in a cause that has and still does inspire the best efforts of a life, subject, of course, to human weaknesses and human errors, but nevertheless devoted and true. I cannot, brethren, I utterly fail to feel that I deserve the fate that now seems hanging over me. Pardon, I did not intend to plead my case. Only let me remind you brethren, of how the Lord has required us to use the priesthood, persuasion, gentleness, brotherly kindness, patience, love. This in the interest of mercy. Try each of you to place or imagine yourself placed in my position. Remember if you can that there is none of you, no not one, for whose peace and happiness I would not give all I have and for the preservation of whose liberties and rights I would not, if necessary, sacrifice even my life. As proof, if you require proof, I refer to records of the past. But as you would be judged, judge me. Then submit that judgment, give me reasonable time to consider it, and if I can harmonize my conscience, convictions respecting justice, truth and honor with your findings and requirements, I shall do so gladly and with a heart full of grateful acknowledgments to Him whose servants we have all been glad to be. Praying the Lord to direct your minds in all things, and uphold and sustain you now and hereafter, I remain,

Your fellow laborer in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher.

President Snow then remarked that the case was now before the Council, and it was for the Council to take such action as was proper and right. As for himself he had very little faith in Brother Thatcher's sincerity, as the spirit of technicality was plainly manifest through all his correspondence; but he had chosen not to meet with his quorum. Pres[iden]t. Snow said that he did not think anything would be gained by communicating any further with him, and all that was left for the quorum to do was to proceed and take action in the case. He closed by frankly admitting that he did not think the Lord was pleased with them as a quorum for the way in which they had temporized with Brother Thatcher, allowing him to go so long in his downward course without dealing with him. He added that he knew the feelings of the quorum towards Brother Thatcher, as he had been subject of conversation among themselves for such a length of time; but it was for each one now to express himself freely as to the action to be taken.

Each one of the brethren present then spoke briefly, all agreeing with President Snow that if they had erred at all in the consideration of Brother Thatcher's case, as doubtless they had, they erred on the side of leniency. They all expressed themselves prepared to vote, and endorsed what President Snow had said in his opening remarks.

After each one of the brethren present had spoken, President Snow said that he had little thought when the present First Presidency was organized that this quorum would be called upon to sever from it one of its members. We never imagined such a thing possible. Ever since the first meeting Pres[iden]t. Snow said he had felt moved upon to show his brethren the necessity of establishing a perfect union among themselves as a quorum, and the necessity also of being perfectly united with the First Presidency. At that time a perfect union did not exist among them. He had sometimes thought that his reference to this subject so often since then had become somewhat tedious to some of the members of the Council; but he said he had been impressed to speak upon it in the hope that at last he would succeed in effecting a thorough and perfect union in the quorum. The last conversation he had with Brother Moses Thatcher was on the train between Salt Lake and Brigham City [Utah], during which he reminded Brother Moses that this was the day and hour of his trial, and he asked him saying, "Bro[ther]. Moses why is it that you cannot see it, and why is it that you will not let your brethren help you to see it"?. He felt truly sorry; he loved Brother Thatcher, and it was because of the love he had for him he undertook to make one last effort to save him and to draw him to this council. He knew a man who had a great deal of love for Brother Thatcher, a man who had already done all he could to help him to see the position he was in, and he sent this brother to him to see if it was not possible to prevail upon him to come to this meeting, and to show him that the way was perfectly clear before him, and that nothing would be expected of him in order to regain the fellowship of his quorum more than any other member; but it was no use, everything had failed, and it remained for the quorum now to do its duty.

Some little time was then occupied informally by the brethren discussing the form of motion or resolution to be introduced expressing the mind of the Council, it being the unanimous feeling of the brethren that they could not do less than drop Brother Thatcher from the quorum and deprive him of his priesthood. Brother Grant the moved that this be the decision of the Council; it was seconded by two or three of the brethren and carried unanimously. It was then moved by Elder John Henry Smith, and seconded by Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards, that President Snow be requested and authorized to prepare a card signed by himself as President of the Twelve Apostles, informing the officers and members of the Church through the Deseret News of the action taken in Brother Thatcher's case. Following is the card as published in the Deseret News this evening, after it had received the approbation of the First Presidency:

TO THE OFFICERS AND MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

This is to inform you that, at a meeting of the Council of Apostles held Thursday, November 19th, 1896, there being

present Lorenzo Snow, Franklin D. Richards, Brigham Young, Francis M. Lyman, John Henry Smith, George Teasdale, Heber J. Grant, John W. Taylor, Marriner W[ood]. Merrill, and Anthon H. Lund, which meeting was called for the purpose of considering and taking action on the case of Elder Moses Thatcher, and of which meeting and its object he had been duly notified, after a full consideration of all the circumstances of the case, and after each Apostle present had expressed himself upon the subject, it was unanimously decided that Moses Thatcher be severed from the Council of the Twelve Apostles, and that he be deprived of his Apostleship, and other offices in the Priesthood.

(Signed) Lorenzo Snow,

President, Council of Apostles.

Soon after the close of the Council the following letter was addressed to Brother Thatcher:

Salt Lake City, Utah, Nov[ember]. 19, 1896.

Hon. Moses Thatcher.

Dear Brother: --

It becomes my painful duty as President of the Twelve Apostles to inform you that, at a meeting of that body held today (November 19th, 1896) at which all the living members of the Council, excepting yourself, were present, it was decided, after a full consideration and individual expression of everyone present, to sever you from the Council of Twelve Apostles and deprive you of your Apostleship and other offices in the Priesthood. I remain,

Your brother,

Lorenzo Snow.

Brother B[righam]. Morris Young called and reported that he acted as messenger for Pres[iden]t. Snow in delivering the above letter to Brother Thatcher, which he did a little before 4 o'clock, this afternoon. After reading it, Brother Thatcher remarked, "That's all right Brother Morris, that's all right". Brother Morris then withdrew. (2)

-- Nov 18, 1896
In council with the First Pres[idency]. and a few of the Twelve & several others on political matters especially in relation to Pres[ident]. [George Q.] Cannon being appointed by Legislature to Senate of U.S. States. The Leg[islature]. is solid Dem[ocrat]. and Bro[ther]. Cannon has merrit in their eyes that he is a strong Rep[ublican] altho[ugh]' a bimetalist. Bro[ther]. C[annon]. doesn't want the position no more than we want him to have it for his expulsion from the House of Rep[resentatives] years ago should be supplanted by his exhaltation to the Senate. God will move I know in His own due time and those who have pointed at Bro[ther]. C[annon]. and said I am holier than thou, will eat their own dirt. [November 19, 1896; Journal History; Franklin D. Richards, Diary; Brigham Young Jr., Diary; Marriner Wood Merrill, Diary; J. Golden Kimball, Diary]

At 10 o'clock this morning the special meeting appointed to consider and take action upon the case of Brother Moses Thatcher convened at the Historian's office. There were present the following Apostles: Lorenzo Snow, F[ranklin]. D. Richards, Brigham Young [Jr.], Francis M. Lyman, John Henry Smith, Geo[rge]. Teasdale, Heber J. Grant, John W. Taylor, Mar[r]iner W[ood]. Merrill and Anthon H. Lund; also Geo[rge]. F. Gibbs, reporter.

It was nearly half past ten before President Snow called the meeting to order. A few minutes before that hour a son of Bro[ther]. Thatcher came to the room bearing a letter to President Snow from his father. After President Snow had opened it and read its contents, he then expressed himself to the effect that evidently Brother Thatcher did not want to meet with his quorum, and by way of informing the brethren present of what had passed between himself and Brother Thatcher in the shape of written communications, he requested Elder Richards to read the following letters, which explain themselves:

No 101 West North Temple St., Salt Lake City, Utah,

November 17th, 1896.

Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Twelve Apostles.

Dear Brother: —

On the 11th inst. I wrote you a somewhat lengthy letter in which, after reviewing my

case, I asked that the same publicity be given my defence as that given to the complaints and

accusations made against me. My son George F. Thatcher delivered to you that

communication about 10 o'clock A.M., the following day. At noon on the 13th inst. Brother

Isaac Smith of the Cache [Utah] Stake Presidency handed me a letter from you, of which the

following is a copy:

Salt Lake Temple, Salt Lake City, Nov[ember]. 12, 1896.

Elder Moses Thatcher, Logan [Utah]. Dear Brother: —

This is to notify you that at a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles held today it was resolved that as you are not in fellowship with the Council, your case will be called up for consideration and action at a meeting to be held for that purpose at 10 A.M. on Thursday, 19th inst., at the Historian's Office, this city.

With kind regards,

Your brother,

Lorenzo Snow.

As no reference is made to my communication of the 11th inst., in yours of the 12th, I am in doubt as to whether the letter was intended to be a reply to the former or not; but as no word has reached me I suppose I should so regard it, especially in view of the fact that the action of the Apostles respecting my case was evidently taken after the delivery to you of my letter of the 11th inst. You say: "Your case will be called up for consideration and action at a meeting to be held for that purpose at 10 A.M. on Thursday, the 19th inst". Am I warranted in concluding that you intended that declaration to be a denial of my request for a public hearing? And if so, am I to understand that "consideration" and "action" mean that my trial will commence on the date and at the time and place mentioned? If that is the intention, am I, as heretofore directed by you, to defend myself against or plead to the charges as published in the Deseret Evening News of October 17th? if so will the charges be presented one at a time, or considered as a whole? In either event will those making the charges be present to hear my witnesses? Will I be permitted to bring with me and introduce the testimony of those willing to testify in my behalf? Is the "Manifesto" regarding church discipline in political affairs and for the failure to sign it, which it was understood at the time I was suspended from exercising the functions of the Apostleship, to be introduced as any part of the charges against me? As I will have to call witnesses from various points, I shall greatly appreciate as early a reply as possible.

Very respectfully,

Your brother in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher. To the foregoing communication President Snow said he made the following reply:

I am in receipt of your letter of the 17th inst. in which you advise me of the receipt by you of a communication signed by myself on behalf of the Quorum of the Twelve, and dated Nov[ember]. 12th. You ask whether my letter was intended to be a reply to the former communication which you sent to me, in which you had requested a public hearing of your case; and you further ask if you are warranted in concluding that that letter was a denial of your request for this public hearing? You also ask, if this be so, are you to understand that "consideration" and "action" mean that your trial will commence on the day and at the time and place mentioned; and further, if that is the intention are you to defend yourself against or

187 plead to the charges as published in the Deseret Evening News of October 17th, and if so, will the charges be presented one at a time or considered as a whole; also in either event, will those making the charges be present to hear your witnesses, and will you be permitted to bring with you and introduce the testimonies of those willing to testify in your behalf. You further ask whether the document regarding church discipline, which you failed to sign, will be introduced as pat of the charges against you.

In reply to these queries I have to say that the Quorum of the Apostles do not consider your request for a public hearing a proper one, and for this reason: It is not your standing in the Church that is at issue, but your fellowship with the brethren of your own quorum. This is the business to be settled between yourself and us, and when this is settled satisfactorily there will be no difficulty remaining concerning the document on church discipline. You have been informed on several occasions that the members of your quorum could not fellowship your spirit and conduct. Several of them have waited upon you and informed you that the Twelve felt you should make amends and take proper steps to restore yourself to their fellowship. This, therefore, is not a matter for the general public, nor for the presence of witnesses. You yourself are the principal party interested, and if you can take the necessary steps—which are altogether within your own power, there need not be the least difficulty about your having the fellowship of your fellow Apostles. This has always been the course taken in our church from the beginning to the present time. If the question of your fellowship with the church should be brought forward at any time, it will then be for the church to give you such a hearing as will enable its members to express themselves as to whether they will hold you in fellowship or not. With kind regards,

Your Brother,

Lorenzo Snow. The following letter was then read which was a few minutes previous received from Brother Thatcher, by the hand of his son, George F.:

101 North West Temple St., Salt Lake City,

November 18th 1896. Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Quorum of Twelve. Dear Brother: —

Your esteemed favor of even date replying to my letter of yesterday was handed me this evening, and its contents have been carefully considered. As there is to be no trial of my case, and as I am not requested to be present, I take it to be the purpose, as heretofore notified, that the Quorum meet on the morrow for the purpose of considering my case and determining what I must do before I can again enjoy the fellowship of my brethren of the Twelve Apostles. Beyond the public action taken at the Annual Conference on the 7th of April last, which suspended me within a few hours after my failure to sign the document regarding Church discipline on political matters, and your citation to the remarks of the brethren as published in the Deseret News on Oct[ober]. 17th, about me, I know of nothing upon which to found requirements in my case, and since judgment in those matters has already been passed, the necessity of presenting through witnesses or otherwise any defence in my behalf seems obviated. I can therefore only wait with great concern and deep anxiety your findings, specifying the conditions upon which I may regain the fellowship of my

brethren and restoration to the official position heretofore held in the Church and the duties

and obligations of which I have sought earnestly, honestly and prayerfully to discharge. The

thought of the permanent loss of that exalted position and of your fellowship, and of the

consequent humiliation and bitterness that may follow are very dreadful,—I shrink from their

contemplation. It seems a sad ending, a fruitless reward for thirty years or more of earnest

and devoted work, in a cause that has and still does inspire the best efforts of a life, subject,

of course, to human weaknesses and human errors, but nevertheless devoted and true. I

cannot, brethren, I utterly fail to feel that I deserve the fate that now seems hanging over me.

Pardon, I did not intend to plead my case. Only let me remind you brethren, of how the Lord

has required us to use the priesthood, persuasion, gentleness, brotherly kindness, patience,

love. This in the interest of mercy. Try each of you to place or imagine yourself placed in my

position. Remember if you can that there is none of you, no not one, for whose peace and

happiness I would not give all I have and for the preservation of whose liberties and rights I

would not, if necessary, sacrifice even my life. As proof, if you require proof, I refer to

records of the past. But as you would be judged, judge me. Then submit that judgment, give

me reasonable time to consider it, and if I can harmonize my conscience, convictions

respecting justice, truth and honor with your findings and requirements, I shall do so gladly

and with a heart full of grateful acknowledgments to Him whose servants we have all been

glad to be. Praying the Lord to direct your minds in all things, and uphold and sustain you

now and hereafter, I remain,

Your fellow laborer in the Gospel,

Moses Thatcher.

President Snow then remarked that the case was now before the Council, and it was for the Council to take such action as was proper and right. As for himself he had very little faith in Brother Thatcher's sincerity, as the spirit of technicality was plainly manifest through all his correspondence; but he had chosen not to meet with his quorum. Pres[iden]t. Snow said that he did not think anything would be gained by communicating any further with him, and all that was left for the quorum to do was to proceed and take action in the case. He closed by frankly admitting that he did not think the Lord was pleased with them as a quorum for the way in which they had temporized with Brother Thatcher, allowing him to go so long in his downward course without dealing with him. He added that he knew the feelings of the quorum towards Brother Thatcher, as he had been subject of conversation among themselves for such a length of time; but it was for each one now to express himself freely as to the action to be taken.

Each one of the brethren present then spoke briefly, all agreeing with President Snow that if they had erred at all in the consideration of Brother Thatcher's case, as doubtless they had, they erred on the side of leniency. They all expressed themselves prepared to vote, and endorsed what President Snow had said in his opening remarks.

After each one of the brethren present had spoken, President Snow said that he had little thought when the present First Presidency was organized that this quorum would be called upon to sever from it one of its members. We never imagined such a thing possible. Ever since the first meeting Pres[iden]t. Snow said he had felt moved upon to show his brethren the necessity of establishing a perfect union among themselves as a quorum, and the necessity also of being perfectly united with the First Presidency. At that time a perfect union did not exist among them. He had sometimes thought that his reference to this subject so often since then had become somewhat tedious to some of the members of the Council; but he said he had been impressed to speak upon it in the hope that at last he would succeed in effecting a thorough and perfect union in the quorum. The last conversation he had with Brother Moses Thatcher was on the train between Salt Lake and Brigham City [Utah], during which he reminded Brother Moses that this was the day and hour of his trial, and he asked him saying, "Bro[ther]. Moses why is it that you cannot see it, and why is it that you will not let your brethren help you to see it"?. He felt truly sorry; he loved Brother Thatcher, and it was because of the love he had for him he undertook to make one last effort to save him and to draw him to this council. He knew a man who had a great deal of love for Brother Thatcher, a man who had already done all he could to help him to see the position he was in, and he sent this brother to him to see if it was not possible to prevail upon him to come to this meeting, and to show him that the way was perfectly clear before him, and that nothing would be expected of him in order to regain the fellowship of his quorum more than any other member; but it was no use, everything had failed, and it remained for the quorum now to do its duty.

Some little time was then occupied informally by the brethren discussing the form of motion or resolution to be introduced expressing the mind of the Council, it being the unanimous feeling of the brethren that they could not do less than drop Brother Thatcher from the quorum and deprive him of his priesthood. Brother Grant the moved that this be the decision of the Council; it was seconded by two or three of the brethren and carried unanimously. It was then moved by Elder John Henry Smith, and seconded by Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards, that President Snow be requested and authorized to prepare a card signed by himself as President of the Twelve Apostles, informing the officers and members of the Church through the Deseret News of the action taken in Brother Thatcher's case. Following is the card as published in the Deseret News this evening, after it had received the approbation of the First Presidency:

TO THE OFFICERS AND MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH.

This is to inform you that, at a meeting of the Council of Apostles held Thursday,

Taylor, Marriner W[ood]. Merrill, and Anthon H. Lund, which meeting was called for the

purpose of considering and taking action on the case of Elder Moses Thatcher, and of which

meeting and its object he had been duly notified, after a full consideration of all the

circumstances of the case, and after each Apostle present had expressed himself upon the

subject, it was unanimously decided that Moses Thatcher be severed from the Council of the

Twelve Apostles, and that he be deprived of his Apostleship, and other offices in the

Priesthood.

(Signed) Lorenzo Snow,

President, Council of Apostles.

Soon after the close of the Council the following letter was addressed to Brother Thatcher:

Salt Lake City, Utah, Nov[ember]. 19, 1896.

Hon. Moses Thatcher.

Dear Brother: —

It becomes my painful duty as President of the Twelve Apostles to inform you that, at

a meeting of that body held today (November 19th, 1896) at which all the living members of

the Council, excepting yourself, were present, it was decided, after a full consideration and

individual expression of everyone present, to sever you from the Council of Twelve Apostles

and deprive you of your Apostleship and other offices in the Priesthood. I remain,

Your brother,

Lorenzo Snow.

Brother B[righam]. Morris Young called and reported that he acted as messenger for Pres[iden]t. Snow in delivering the above letter to Brother Thatcher, which he did a little before 4 o'clock, this afternoon. After reading it, Brother Thatcher remarked, "That's all right Brother Morris, that's all right". Brother Morris then withdrew.

At 10 am the following named Apostles met in upper room of Historian's Office building; viz Lorenzo Snow, F[ranklin] S Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.], F[rancis] M Lyman, J[ohn] H[enry] Smith, G[eorge]. Teasdale, H[eber] J Grant, J[ohn] W Taylor, M[arriner] W[ood] Merrill & A[nthon] H Lund and considered the case of Moses Thatcher—after which it was decided, that he be severed from the Council of the 12 Apostles & that he be deprived of his Apostleship & other offices in the Priesthood & that the same be published in the D[eseret] E[vening] News. Every member participated. A sad & sorrowful day's labor for us.

Met in His[torian's] office at 10 a.m. Ten of the 12 were present. Discussed question of Moses Thatcher Pres[iden]t. [Lorenzo] Snow said no use procriestruating this case. I followed much later but all argued that it was hopeless to try any more to concilliate Bro[ther]. Moses Thatcher: he has thwarted us every time. We must come to his terms or else we are wrong Unanimous decision that he be dropped from this Quorum and stopped from every function of the Priesthood. It is published in [Deseret Evening] News. President Wilford Woodruff commended our action, he said such action was needed a long time ago. [A]fter due deleberation Moses Thatcher was expelled from the Quorum of the Twelve and His Priesthood taken from him (see deseret Evening News of this date) for insubbordination and apostacy and the action was Published to the Officers and Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later day saints.

A conversation commenced regarding Moses Thatcher. Bro[ther] [Heber J.] Grant stated that to his knowledge, that Pres[ident]. John Taylor, Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon and Moses Thatcher agreed to dedicate 60% of their Bullion Beck Stock to the Church of Jesus Christ, and that Moses Thatcher after wards refused to do so. That the fight that was made by the Taylor family and Moses Thatcher took from the Church about one million dollars. Heber Grant said Moses Thatcher was a traitor to his brethren. ... It was with sorrow that I read in the Deseret Evening News of the 19th inst that Elder Moses Thatcher had been severed from the Council of the Twelve Apostles and that he be deprived of his Apostleship, and other offices in the Priesthood. This is a most sorrowful incident that has happened in the Church my life. True some have apostatised but the Apostles during my life time have remained true. At this date am not familiar with the charges against Moses Thatcher. I understand he is not in harmony with his brethren in certain movements and their letter of Church discipline. (1)

[Brigham Young Jr.] ...Met in His[torian's] office at 10 a.m. Ten of the 12 were present. Discussed question of Moses Thatcher Pres[iden]t. [Lorenzo] Snow said no use procriestruating this case. I followed much later but all argued that it was hopeless to try any more to concilliate Bro[ther]. Moses Thatcher: he has thwarted us every time. We must come to his terms or else we are wrong Unanimous decision that he be dropped from this Quorum and stopped from every function of the Priesthood. It is published in [Deseret Evening] News. President Wilford Woodruff commended our action, he said such action was needed a long time ago. [A]fter due deleberation Moses Thatcher was expelled from the Quorum of the Twelve and His Priesthood taken from him (see deseret Evening News of this date) for insubbordination and apostacy and the action was Published to the Officers and Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later day saints. ... (1)