The Perfect Man

Arcbound had a bit of insight about the tactical applications of predictable behaviors resulting from women’s menstrual cycle phases:

So then how would someone reconcile the two characteristics… Is there some sort of balance of alpha and beta traits? Should we show alpha and beta traits on different times of the month?

I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t anticipated this response, but the key to answering this question is found in how women perceive attraction versus how they feel when sexually aroused. I detailed this briefly in my last post:

I think where most beta men lose the trail is in the belief that Beta attraction is (or should be) synonymous with Alpha arousal. Each of these concepts is representative of a different facet of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy – Alpha seed, Beta need. Women’s sexual imperatives can be defined by the degree to which her short term mating strategy can be justified, or offset, by her long term mating strategy.

For women and most plugged in men, what I’m illuminating here probably seems like an effort in semantics, but it’s important to make a separation between what conditions and cues a woman is sexually aroused by and what traits make for her overal attraction for a man.

Attraction is not Arousal

Women love to be asked about what they look for in a man. It’s kind of like imagining what you’ll do with all your lottery winnings after you buy a quick-pick – you want the mansion and the yacht, but you’ll also give some to charity so as not to seem like money could fundamentally change you into a greedy prick. Women rationalize that their most self-indulgent wants need to be tempered with some measured appearance of prudence. This is a kind of meta scale anti-slut defense. However, while ASD is a localized private dynamic, on a socialized, public scale this translates into women presenting a perception of judiciousness in explaining what they find attractive in a man, without being burdened with the perception of ‘shallowness’ for what they find arousing in a man.

You also have to consider that when women list their prerequisites for their ideal man, they are approaching this question from the perspective of whom they would like to pair off with for committed long term security and provisioning – entirely sidestepping women’s innate pluralistic sexual strategy and what really turns them on for a short term sexual experience. Most of what a woman will list as redeeming attributes on her ‘attraction list’ are what red pill men would describe as beta traits. In fact, as per my last post on menstruation, most of these attraction cues would be best expressed while a woman is in her luteal phase. In this frame of mind she says she wants comfort and trust endearing qualities – sensitivity, empathy, familiarity, humor, charm, compliments, caring, etc. – in other words the beta traits the average chump has in spades as the result of his constant immersion in a fem-centric acculturation.

One of the most resounding themes in the manosphere is that the vast majority of guys are beta chumps. A lot of men and women outside the sphere bristle at this estimation because it sounds callous and accusatory – all coming at them from the end of a pointed arrogant Alpha’s finger. But the root of their anger really comes from being made to understand that the overwhelming mass of average frustrated chumps are actually the direct result of the feminization they thought would benefit humanity. Let’s level the playing field and play by women’s standards for a change, lets see what they’d like men to be, lets identify with the feminine more and the world will be a better place.

Only it turned out not to be a better place. It turns out women didn’t know what was best for men as based on their own inadequate (really solipsistically indifferent) understanding of masculine nature and the results are summed up in articles like this; feminized men bemoaning the feminization of men. All as a proxy for women complaining about how the feminized men they created are now too feminine for them to be attracted to, much less aroused by.

So as you can see, the world is actually awash in beta men; and all so well conditioned to be in touch with their feminine sides that they seek out the guiding dominance of masculinized women (by choice or by perception) to provide them with a direction in their life. Beta Game is a dead end (sometimes literally), so unsurprisingly it’s a painful realization for the majority of men to have this spelled out for them in no uncertain terms. At the same time it comes as a stinging retribution for women who see what’s become of the men they created – they got the men they deserved.

More Beta is not a Sexual Strategy

There are certain femosphere bloggers who’d advocate the building of a better beta. Their presumptions are based on the same misguided feminization that resulted in the greater feminization of the men Hugo Schwyzer complains about (for women) in his article. They fear a push back towards masculine Alpha dominance will result in a generation of assholes, devoid of the nurturing beta qualities they thought women could identify more with. Yet they simultaneously bemoan the absence of dominant, arousal inspiring, Alpha aspects of masculinity in men today. Ted D in his new found red pill epiphany sums this paradox up fairly well over at Aunt Giggles echo chamber:

We can go on and on about how most women LOVE good beta traits, but they simply ARE. NOT. TURNED. ON. BY. THEM

In this short sentence Ted D encapsulates the conflict between Attraction and Arousal for women. When women say “they want the whole package” they enumerate the qualities of what makes for their best long term provisioning, however, this conflicts with what arouses women sexually. The guy who exemplifies the best beta male characteristics isn’t getting the same play as the guy exemplifying the best Alpha arousal cues. This is precisely the duplicity men experience when women mislead them to believe that beta provisioning traits are equatable with Alpha arousal cues.

A stay at home Dad might have himself convinced that he’s more fulfilled in his mothering role, but he’s gravely mistaken in convincing himself that women find his fatherly efforts sexually arousing. They may find it attractive in “whole package” sense, ultimately Hypergamy doesn’t care how great a father you are.

For the better part of the last 70 years men have been conditioned to think that more beta equals more pussy, and the results of this social experiment are now manifest in the pathetic men Hugo (himself included) complains of. The greater problem women face now is accepting the genuineness of an Alpha transformation of so many men.

Up the Alpha

Women love the concept of tempering the dominant asshole Alpha. It’s a common romance novel fantasy for women to be the uniquely soothing influence over the rebellious jerk who wets her panties with her arousal. It’s self-affirming for women to think their Alpha superhero would only show his beta side to her. Unfortunately the reverse of this situation is the reality – the vast majority of men must fight an uphill battle from beta origins to Alpha transformation. It is Game and red pill awareness that aid in upping the Alpha, but for women conditioned to expect beta male frailty, for women whose lives have been defined by male submissiveness, this transformation is herculean task.

85 responses to “The Perfect Man”

The question then becomes is how do you embody both in proper amounts to get to that ‘rather share a high value man’ status. As you know my plates run 1-3 months in duration. I don’t know if I’m giving myself away too easily or not easily enough, but how do you keep them going longer – becoming more ‘high value’?

Or is it one of those things where women actually PREFER the duplicity, where if you’re alpha you’re alpha and you just get to fuck her and if you’re beta then you’re beta and you just get commitment and 2nd rate sex?

If guys want to learn what it really takes to up their alpha, I strongly recommend reading the Escalation section of 60 Years of Challenge. That one guide made a huge difference in my game and how I present myself to the world.

Really they shouldn’t be afraid of a world of asshole alphas. Alpha while a state of mind is also an arms race against other men. The far larger danger for civilization and female creature comforts is the beta males finally giving up hope. Civilization was built on their backs for better or worse. If civilization only offers them derision and scorn they will opt out eventually. The road to alpha is rough, easier to turn into video games for men. Enjoy the decline!

In most periods in history wouldn’t the alpha male also be a great beta male as well?

Historical the alpha male is a leader type in his group. Being the leader brings with it all the resources that come with that status. These resources are the backbone of being a great provider for the woman and the children, the absolute top attribute of the beta.

I know we talk about masculine mentality and not putting women on a pedestal. But feminized ways of thinking didn’t have to be deprogrammed. Masculine mindset was really the default mindset. In fact, women were usually deried as second class citizens. Just ask the Greeks.

Let’s take the vikings in 1000 AD. Do you really think any of them had a beta male mentality towards women? Can you imagine Lars laying down his great dane axea and picking flowers while acting like a puppy dog for Olga? I can’t. So who would be the best beta provider in the group? It would have to be the viking cheiftain that got the most of the loot and with the status to denote status on his women and his children.

Well done Rollo. If there is one quality I find in your postings, it is good taste. You generally find the way to expose a topic, yet do it with good taste. You could have taken that Jezebel article and rubbed it in. But as usual, your treatment of the theme used the academic basis so common in your postings. No matter how rabid a feminist might be, she would have to give your treatment of this topic an acknowledgement.

I was reading some of Roissy’s much older posts last night and came across this one “Love in the Time of Game”.

It is a critique of a post by Kay S. Hymowitz “Love in the Time of Darwinism” which one of the earliest mentions I have found in the public sphere on the effect of Game Dynamics, Kidults, and Male Anger on the sexual marketplace. 2008.

I post them because I think they are relevant to today’s Rationale Male post and found them interesting reading.

I ask this question that I think might be a topic for something you might write when you need an idea.

“Where will things be in 10 years? 20 years?”

Roissy mentioned a swinging back of the pendulum. I doubt it will happen. I think what we see today is the new normal and will be the basis of PostModern social organization. So I would ask what you think. I certainly think it would be a post that would elicit a ton of comments.

In most periods in history wouldn’t the alpha male also be a great beta male as well?
Historical the alpha male is a leader type in his group. Being the leader brings with it all the resources that come with that status. These resources are the backbone of being a great provider for the woman and the children, the absolute top attribute of the beta.

No. It’s been debated endlessly in the manosphere, but Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic. You’ll find the Alpha mindset in Leaders of Men® as well as in drug dealers, gang leaders and pimps.

You’re just qualifying Alpha in a social context, which is understandable in some respects, but the girl getting pile-driver sex from the hot douchebag Alpha she met the same night didn’t care to ask to see his stock portfolio before she spread her legs for him. She got aroused in spite of her beta filtering.

When my wife found arousal in an other guy and I responded with jealousy and hurt it became a potentially dangerous fork in the road. It really is true that hypergamy doesn’t care. Hypergamy doesn’t care how good of a father you are, how mature you are, or how well you can communicate your feelings.

Luckily the saying “five minutes of alpha is greater than five years of beta” goes both ways. She snapped to attention when I broke out of my beta backslide and upped the alpha. It is amazing how fast the direction of their attention can change when you have that command presence about you.

Excellent work Rollo. You continue to shed light on my own understanding and growth.

I was alluding to that during that period, I can’t imagine that their would even be a beta mindset of pedestaling women. Vikings were simply masculine. Just as with Spartan culture, when your first battle is at 12, growing up a mangina usually isn’t an option.

With all other things being equal in terms of a masculine mindset, the man with the most is king. The viking cheiftain is the supreme alpha and beta. He usually got his position from being the best warrior and leader (alpha) and he has the most resources and status to provide the best for the women and children (beta).

It is interesting to read women speak about “Alpha Traits” and “Beta Qualities”. I found their discussion to be on par with men talking about the best combination of skill players for a fantasy football team, what Alpha Traits would be desirable combined with which beta qualities.

I also found a schism in what Susan says and what is generally felt by most Red Pill men. She is talking about the belief of men about hypergamy based on anecdotal stories of men and that she wishes to see more formal data. This is the schism between what she says and what the majority of what the 3 R and Dalrock readers believe.

She says

“That’s fine. I have no problem with having the uncomfortable conversations. What I do have a problem with is the repeated championing of a view without any corroborating evidence.

In this case, it’s female hypergamy = seeking to trade up incrementally throughout life.

The only source for this claim is not credible. He has offered a hypothesis, but has not sought to test it in any way. Not a single expert in mating, evo psych, evo bio or sexuality shares his view. I have never seen hypergamy define this way anywhere else. Devlin’s view is unique. That doesn’t necessarily make it wrong, but without any attempt to confirm it, even by the author, I see no reason why I should accept it. Particularly since it does not resonate with my own knowledge of female sexuality.”

She believes that women do control alpha attraction through character. They are tempted but do not act on the temptation. I think the majority of RationaleMale readers believe they do not. Hypergamy doesn’t care if …

My belief is somewhat an extension of your Genuine Desire idea and I understand that Genuine Desire is based primarily on those attributes that cause arousal and that any “attraction” to Beta Qualities is a culturally and economically imposed compromise. If women were completely independent financially, physically protected by the state or some private agency, and could find an adequate environment to rear children, then their sexual choices would be made entirely based on short term mating schedules. Arousal qualities would predominate in her selection. From my own experience and through your posts, I believe the arousal traits to be so much stronger than beta attraction qualities that the woman will jettison the relationship upon the loss of arousal and be able to rationalize doing so provided she can adequate support herself and her children.

In my own life, I have assumed that my wife decided that she would divorce me once her income coupled with what she could get from me was the equivalent of a $100,000 a year salary. It happened exactly that way and that number is too much of a round number for me to ignore it. I had been her “Alpha”. My marriage was divided into two time segments. During the first I rankled and rebelled to the marriage and I acted out as a lessor alpha would do so. I went out at night without her. I ran wild. I accidentally did everything right. I treated her shit and that I would replace in a minute. Then in the second phase I accepted the marriage, turned into the hubbie, got fat, turned into a complacent and compliant beta and she was surrounded at work by younger alpha type males. I had no idea what a shit test was and failed them miserably thinking that was how a good husband acted. Her father was wealthy and he was diagnosed with lung cancer and she stood to inherit a few million dollars. So I believe that with her perceived financial future she decided to push me out. So between my age (I passed 40) and adopting beta behavior, coupled with how she viewed her finances, she had no arousal for me and I got shown the door to the street.

For years people would could up to me and say “You know who you look like? David Bowie. Then shortly before I got kicked to the curb, this guy in restaurant asked the question to me in front of her and I was all expecting to hear “David Bowie” and the guy said “Don Nelson”, who was fat NBA coach with drooping jowls that was at least 15 years older than I was. I was on the street pretty soon after and needless to say, I hit the gym and never heard the Don Nelson bullshit again.

So I feel that women control alpha arousal from another man only if it is financially viable to remain with the current mate and even more so, if it is not financially viable to leave. And in an environment where women are able to have financial independence then arousal qualities for choices in sexual relations will predominate, especially if the majority of the men from which she could choose a partner can only contribute less money that she believes she deserves.

So I think a tipping point has been reached and there is no turning back. You can’t do black box testing on life. You can’t take a module and provide some inputs and measure some outputs. It is more like testing a space rocket. You build it and you fire it off. It works or it blows up. People that are “in the pipe” are already “in the pipe”. A man cannot decide at 28, “Oh, I guess I’ll be chemical engineer now”. It takes years of preparation scholastically and personally to even be able to attend college and study a technical subject. And when I try to discuss Red Pill stuff with younger guys they look at me like I am an old crazy guy. So it would be nearly impossible to rectify the situation of men to where there was a large segment that had both alpha traits and beta qualities on such a large scale to reverse what is happening.

And furthermore, a lot of men don’t want go that route anyway. I don’t. I was an Oracle DBA and I was earning $120,000 working in IT, sitting in cubicles, dealing with all the same bullshit you saw in the “Office Space” movie and I only realized how much I hated it until I got divorced. And I sat down and I am not going back. No woman is worth that shit. I would rather be single and poor and free. So I can readily identify with Kidults. I am one, maybe the oldest one in the country and I recommend as a lifestyle.

And given what I think about alpha arousal over beta qualities, I think it is stupid to bust ass to obtain beta qualities when you can work on alpha cred. I have been doing that for just a few months and I constantly post that I can see the results. I’m 57 years old and if it works for me, it’s gonna work for many other men. OK, I am not nailing supermodels with a couple of negs and reading their palms. But this shit is working, for me anyway. I did the beta thing, the job thing. I got kicked in the teeth. I had to force myself into that technical role. I had to go from being a street kind of wild lesser alpha boy into a techie beta by going into the Marines and struggling to learn engineering in a University and continued to study my ass off after I started work. I carried manuals for 10 years to the bathroom. And all it got me was derision from ex-wife and other women. If I would have spent a fraction of the time learning Game that I spent to become an engineer I would have had a much happier life.

Roosh constantly writes that you don’t need money for alpha cred. Attraction is everything and money actually works against attraction. You need money to keep women but not to fuck them. And I know “keeping” women is stupid, a fool’s errand. So you actually do yourself a favor to not have any. You can put on a quite a front long enough to fuck them and then bail. There was woman that commented on Heartiste about having a tendency to attract players in suits that turned out to be losers. She said they were decent people that were “Misguided”. They ended up being no more than clothes and fast cars. And if they stayed until discovery then she would wound them emotionally. Frankly, now I used to be afraid that would happen to me and drove me. Now I think it is perfectly valid strategy, a suit, a taxi for a night out instead of a fancy car (because I worry about DUI of course), some negs, some chutzpah, and a whole lot of game.

Frankly it works for me and probably for a lot of men. Fuck women. Literally and figuratively. Game them, pump them, dump them.

And furthermore, I don’t want to go back to the way things were. I don’t want to be no bitch’s slave. I like things exactly the way they are and I actually want them to progress even further.

I am a motherfucking feminist PUA. I stopped bitching about feminism a few weeks ago. I had this epiphany. Women’s Liberation means Men’s Libertation. My ass is free and woman are not. Like the old black woman said “All feminism did for me was give me another job”. To paraphrase that for me, “What feminism did for me was to remove me from two stupid jobs, husband and wage slave” I want those bitches to get every fucking thing they want. I want them to become completely financially independent. I want to subsidize them through government. I want big brother to be their husband. I want them to toil away at jobs and then come home and raise kids without me. I want them all to be single, unmarried, and when they come out at night to shake that ass,

My 57 year old fake ass alpha shit will be right there to neg them.

I wrote exactly something like this one Jezebel this morning. That I wanted them to get everything everything they wanted, that they never had to marry, and especially that they all were fortunate enough to become heroic single mothers. And then I and other men would not have to suffer the Idiocy of Marriage and the Stupidity of Modern Parenthood. And then I and other men would be free to live our lives as men never have been able to do in all of history. That I hope all of them were able to remain single and because it allowed men to further pursue the thing that men really want in life, sex, and to be able to do it without the slavery of marriage and monotony of a wife.

Ponder each one of these points separately and consider how each contributes to the whole of your person. For us married guys I don’t advocate cheating to fulfill the “Always keep two in the kitty” rule but realize that you have options. Women really aren’t that hard to come by. If you wanted to, you could go get one right now. Feel that as being a strong source of sexual energy in your life.

Other thoughts:

Manhandle her. Don’t be afraid to get physical. Typical caveman stuff. Pick her up, carry her to the bedroom, slap her ass, etc. but then don’t get too attached and clingy. Think of the alpha. He’s going to express the fact that he’s interested and wants to have sexual contact but, if she’s not receptive, he’s going to move on to other options or other activities.

Make your statements positively oriented and I don’t mean the “why can’t we all just get along?” positivity but the “I know what I want and I know what I like” kind of positivity. As in, “I want to take you out”,”I want to have sex with you”, “I like that skirt on you”, etc. You obviously have to be prepared for rejection if she doesn’t want to have sex but you make your statement and leave it. Then she is clear what you want and that it involves her.

Get out and away from her. Don’t spend all your time with her. Have some hobbies and friends that actually expand your world.

Stop trying to keep the peace and get mad once in a while. Throw the “happy wife, happy life” advice out the window.

Have standards and don’t be afraid to tell her when you are disappointed in her. Anything from bad behavior to the way she dresses. Then have the balls to ride out what you’ve said.

For instance, a man will think that if he says to a woman “I don’t like that dress” that it is an insult. And while the woman might be obviously upset at first (because, of course, she wanted to look good), after she changes, she will feel happy that the man actually took notice and had the balls to say something.

It’s like with fighting. Indifference is worse than fighting. A woman will be much happier that you took the time and energy to fight with her than if you are bored and indifferent. To them it means that you are paying attention.

I know that you will often hear in the manosphere to never let a woman rile you up. But strategic displays of anger will do wonders for the respect a woman gives you. Don’t be a baby about it but when you believe in your own position and are angry, go ahead and yell at her. I bet you will be happy with the results. For one, you won’t feel pent up like you are trying to keep a lid on your emotions. For two, she will respect you for having standards even if those standards are not logical.

Remember, the feeling you are trying to create is that you have confidence in yourself and what you want. This actually reflects back positively on a woman because she will think “He has high standards so I must be good.”

“Like the old black woman said “All feminism did for me was give me another job”.”

That’s what always baffled me about feminist career women. They want to join the corporate world when they don’t have to. Why in the holy hell would anyone want to do that?

If I was a decent looking woman, I would want to get married, do some sweeping, eat bon bons and watch oprah. Sounds like paradise.

Feminism was created by ugly women who tricked normal women into thinking they wanted that shit. They were figurative serpent telling women that ‘career’ was the answer.

It’s just that women are solipsists so of course if you tell them they deserve something they automatically agree.

Also they used the apex alpha fallacy beautifully. They constrasted the lifestyle and privledge of Gordon Gecko to normal women. We all deserve to be female versions of Gordon Gecko. They didn’t notice all the corporate cube monkeys that were Gecko’s bitches. Those men were losers and really didn’t even exist.

You are so right there Mark. They made their bed and they will lie in it.

No, that was not supposed to be sarcastic. I remember reading dating/relationship books or talking with female friends, and one big thing was always to make a list of what one wanted and that was somehow “calling” that man into your life. I had a list with several things on it: the ideal age, wage, stage, etc. But, really, it simplifes to what I said above. The understanding women thing is pretty challenging. But, I’ve met men like that now. The understanding me thing is even more challenging, but, ultimately, its the only thing that matters. Whatever was on my list before will be there IF they get me. Its all about the values. And strong arms are rather nice.

‘The Perfect Man: one who understands women, generally, and me, specifically. That’s it. If those two things are there, that’s everything ‘

What I think happened to your mentality though is a good thing.

You had a list. Basically the worst damn thing you can do in terms of actually finding somebody that isn’t just around for a pump and dump. The list will most certainly destroy most average looking women’s chance of actually finding someone in her MMV because it’s just hypergamy personified.

What you was lower your standards enough to actually include men that would be committed to you. However you still want alot in my opinion.

A man that understands women is experienced with women. You still want a huge attraction indicator of pre-selection.

Also, mysteriouslly enough the guy that gets you also happens to have a decent job, is probably SWPL, not too short and has social skills. He’s just a not super stud so you kind of pat yourself on the back for not being shallow.

Of course I want a lot. I also offer a lot. I wouldn’t ultimately be able to respect any man who hadn’t been at least as successful in life as I have been. We all know this. When you get to be as old as the hills, you have experience and you want to be with someone else who has experience. And by experience, I mean in relationships (real ones, not the three months some people consider a relationship :) ). My problem with the lists is that they often limit the women and they don’t give men who don’t fit those traits a chance. I know when I was online dating, the matches were filtered through my preferences by the dating site and then I filtered them again. I wasn’t screening for certain looks or height, but I had a routine I went through. Initially, I preferred divorced with no children. Over time I began to see the merits of divorced with children. I had a rule about hats. No men wearing baseball hats. If a man was bald, I wanted him to own it. I broke my rule once because he looked like he had kind eyes. I shouldn’t have. The hat was a symbol of a deeper problem. It probably sounds ridiculous to make that broad a generalization, but read thousands of profiles and thousands of posts on relationship forums, and pretty clear patterns emerge. Someone above described Rollo as an anthopologist. A friend of mine called me a “social anthropologist.” I try to learn as much as I can vicariously cause it softens the hard knocks. I think, eventually, we get so tuned in to what we want, that we can find it/it comes to us even when we have very little to go by: say, words on a screen. Its pretty fascinating stuff.

This is so fascinating. I love when women come to these blogs and illustrate the main points that very blogs themselves make.

Lets recap:

So you start off with saying:

‘The Perfect Man: one who understands women, generally, and me, specifically. That’s it. If those two things are there, that’s everything ‘- GK

This is exactly in the spirit of this very post:

‘Most of what a woman will list as redeeming attributes on her ‘attraction list’ are what red pill men would describe as beta traits.’ – Rollo

GK says that sentence in a tone of I’m very special girl. Not like the other solipsistic bitches. I’m different. I just want these innocent hallmark sounding traits. Are these beta traits she listed? On surface they seem like it, but underneath they are alpha traits. She just condensed her hypergamy into two innocuous ideas which if you really break it down futher is simply one idea.

She just basically said I want a man that is attractive to other women, ‘he gets women’, pre-selection. Most men can only really get women when they have experience in the carnal way with them. Pre-selection is known to be one of the strongest attractors there is. Hot wing women trump a hundred good wingmen.

Then she gives futher information:

Saying that she had the infamous ‘list of hypergamy’. However as she got older and the wall was coming or had hit, then she hamstered the list away but not completely. Since it was becoming clearer that the unicorn wasn’t ever going to show up, something had to be done. Get rid of the list in the literal sense because it could never be fulfilled and just have the spirit of it alive so she could actually rationalize being with someone.

The end result is guy that has some of the aspects of the list but not all. Thus she is free to go after a guy still with an alpha mentality but he might be 5’8 and bald now where as before only tall dark and handsome would do. Necessity becomes a virtue.

By the way GeishaKate, it’s not a personal attack, it’s just that what you said just illustrated the post for me. You are very much like a normal woman. It would be like telling guys that they stare at a woman’s ass and tits and shaming them. It’s just in the nature of the respective sexes.

“A man that understands women is experienced with women. You still want a huge attraction indicator of pre-selection. ”

Hmm, I think a man who understands women could just as easily be a beta who has a lot of experience being rejected (even by sluts who would supposedly fuck just about anyone), LJBF’ed and watching his alpha buddies get laid. Understanding won’t necessarily get him laid on its own.

‘Hmm, I think a man who understands women could just as easily be a beta who has a lot of experience being rejected (even by sluts who would supposedly fuck just about anyone), LJBF’ed and watching his alpha buddies get laid. Understanding won’t necessarily get him laid on its own.’

None of that helps in ‘understand women’. ‘Understanding women’ is code for knowing how to play them. Plus even in theoritical sense all three of those points have problems.

1) Rejected – If he gets rejected repeately without success at all, he obviously is doing it wrong and doesn’t have a clue. He still has no experience wooing and beding her which is the only experience that counts.

2) LJBF – This is probably the most ultimate indictator that the sap has no clue. Any guy that is a beta orbitier is at the very bottom of the understanding chicks spectrum.

3) Alpha buddies get laid – Watching them get laid does nothing because they never truely absorb any of the concepts and most often times flat out reject them. Plus a lot of natural alphas don’t really know what the fuck they are doing, it’s just how they are. It would be like asking Lebron James how do you get tall?

What I’m saying is, he might know all the theory of how women work, just without any success in practice. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand them. Reading law books and trying to become a lawyer doesn’t mean you will ever become a good one.

1) He might know exactly what is wrong in his approach, but unable to fix it (and perhaps he’s wallowing in misery and would rather be too lazy to fix it).
2) He might have gotten LJBF’ed in the past and stopped trying to become friends first, because of that. But still, he had the LJBF experience.
3) Exactly – alphas often don’t understand women either. They just act the way that helps to get laid. I know a few of these guys. Some of them are remarkably blue pill. They truly think sluts will fuck anyone, and disagree with their omega/beta buddies who say sluts won’t fuck them.

‘I want a man that has experience with women. I want a man that is pre-selected’. She simply used covert communication to get her message across along with the handy plausible deniablity that comes with it.

You are trying to argue through low probablity examples and using subterfuge.

Let me put this way the vast majority of beta males without much sexual experience do not ‘understand women’ with understanding meaning they don’t know how to attract and sexually dominate them. That’s the ‘understanding’ you girls are after and you damn well know that too.

That’s simply the way it is.

Let me ask you a question. Suppose a guy fit all those criteria listed above. He got constantly rejected by women without success with those rejections leaving him in the ‘friendzone’ and he had most of his knowledge of women living vicarously through his alpha friend, would you or Kate give this guy a chance?

“You are very much like a normal woman.” HAHAHAHAHA! Be careful in your zeal as you’ve made a lot of incorrect assumptions about me. I can’t say whether being a normal woman is one of them or not. LOL I find it endlessly amusing that men somehow expect women who are on these blogs to be anything other than women. Do you seriously want/would you be interested in a man in a woman’s body? No. As much as men rail against women, they still want them. And they pretty much still want the same ones they had before only with some small improvement. Try not to turn me into a science experiement:) Never have I been the go for the tall, dark, and handsome type. I loved short, funny-looking, and blonde. And the wall is not hitting the same as it might for someone who was never married/had never had children.

The LA Times had an article this evening about a new fetal genome analysis without requiring the father’s DNA. It has a hook that pertains to this post. Cuckolding.

Here is blurb from the article followed by a link to the article

“In the past, fetal-genome analyses have involved getting samples of DNA from three places: the woman’s blood cells (to identify her genome), the woman’s blood plasma (to detect fetal DNA in addition to her own) and cells from the father-to-be’s saliva (to know for sure what bits of his DNA the fetus inherited).

But sampling the man’s DNA is a “particularly delicate issue,” the study authors note, since “the incidence of non-paternity is estimated to be between 3% and 10%.”

In the new study, senior author Stephen R. Quake and colleagues at Stanford University did the entire analysis without sampling the man’s DNA.

As reported before, the authors were able to infer which bits of the woman’s genome had been picked up by the fetus since those DNA regions were present in the plasma in extra amounts. But they could also accurately deduce the father-to-be’s genome by identifying bits of genome that did not come from the woman.”

So they can deduce the fathers genome but without the actual DNA from the father to compare to the deduced genome, they can’t tell if the “Father” is the “Father”.

But those doctors should be sensitive to a woman’s need for privacy, shouldn’t they? Fuck. it’s only 10% non-paternity. So the next time you’re watching a youth football game then 1 kid on offense and 1 kid on defense has some guy rooting for him that isn’t the biological father. Or 3 kids in a school classroom. Or 1.8 million in the Greater Los Angeles area. Or 35 million in the United States, actually much more than the population of California.

The Big shocker was a few years ago when the National Blood Bank excluded 20% of samples. Of course, they retested and the 3% is the number that is more commonly cited.

Doctors are put into a quandary when non-paternity is discovered. If they tell the father, then the family is broken. So they don’t tell him, in the best interest of the child, unless he specifically asks. In England, there was an attempt to outlaw home DNA paternity test kits. In the best interest of the child. Fuck the dad.

I’m actually just arguing semantics. I know that the word “understand” in GeishaKate’s description of the perfect man probably has a meaning different from its original one. I decided to chime in because I found some men who knew a lot about women and what they like, but still got stuck in incel for years. It seems MRA sites have these guys. My boyfriend used to be like that before we met. So it seems to me you can know a lot, yet still not transform into a man women find attractive (although, a year after we got together, he became famous unexpectedly, and got some more female attention).

I guess if I was GeishaKate, I’d use a different word from “understand”, but her description of the perfect man is elegant as it is. It does describe what’s needed – a bit of alpha and a bit of beta.

Jezebel, a super-structure rationalization hamster. Could argue thats what the internet is turning into primarily. The great thing with super structure rationalization hamsters is you dont have to do a lot of work. Its pretty much all done for you.

‘Anyway, in conclusion, whilst geisha may not have been full-time prostitutes who relied upon selling sex for their income on a daily basis, they did engage in activities which would fall within the bounds of that profession.’

Wideboy – wow, yes, this piece almost made me vomit. But to answer your question, hopefully not long. Pre red pill, I might have just viewed this is an interesting anecdote, even believing what she is saying is true. But now I can pull out passages from the article and can fluently translate from woman-ese…

“my last therapist charged a murderous $275 an hour”. Yes, yes, thank you for reminding us that you can afford to pay somebody (another woman no doubt) $275 per hour to talk about how not haaaappy you are living the upper class lifestyle provided by your ex’s alimony.

“One 2010 study showed that when a woman’s contribution to household income tops 60 percent, the couple is more likely to divorce.” Hypergamy is a bitch.

“…we, this evening’s chorus, are divorced professional mothers (DPMs) who have adjusted, several years in, to life after marriage. Our children are fine.” Oh sure, I guess they seem fine compared to all the other kids of divorced parents and single moms. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King.

“Annette is a working warrioress, a high-level administrator who makes mid–six figures at a major foundation.” Aaahhh yes, the “high-level administrator” who produces nothing and whose job is to literally spend the money of [men] who earned it.

“For God’s sake,” exclaims Kate, who is an independent producer. “With all the damn money you make at that foundation, why don’t you just pay $40 a week for a lightbulb intern?” A “independent producer”. What that means is that she is blowing all the cash and prizes from the divorce settlement on idiotic small films or pilot episodes that never get picked up. 0% ROI I would imagine.

“we all married sensitive, intelligent, professional men, rather than barflies” – correct, you all married betas and you subsequently divorced them. 4 out of 4 in fact.

I couldnt stomach the rest of the article so I stopped reading. But I think everyone gets the point. So to summarize, they all married beta shlubs, took their money, work at jobs that provide no real value, and yet still manage to think they are the center of the universe. Solipsism indeed.

“I’m always looking for examples of, as you say, upping the alpha, being something I actively work on (for reasons similar to yours). Got any specifics you can impart?”

Just internalize the mindset of wanting women, but not needing them. You can tell a woman you love her, can tell her that you care about her, and can show her some beta, but she needs to know that you don’t NEED her.

Yes, if a good woman falls out of your life it might hurt you, that is simply normal and human, but you know that there are a thousand more out there that you can seduce. Once this mindset is internalized women become more attached than you could ever believe. It is the apex of alpha IMO.

I don’t know if I’d call it a Red Pill Epiphany. It was (and continues) to be a work in progress, but I can’t deny that despite the uncomfortable truths I learned and continue to learn, there is a sense of peace and contentment in knowing as well.

If I had to describe how I am feeling at this point, I think the best description is that I’m beginning to feel like I know my place in the world. I’m also finding myself more content and generally pleased with how my life is going. It isn’t perfect, and I don’t expect it to be, but it IS my life and I’m going to make the best of it my way. It might not even be the best way, but I really don’t care. The important part is that it will be my doing, sink or swim.

I know the essentials, and the essence, Jason. I’m looking for specific examples. Without them, the theory is literally nothing. With them, you can gauge progress, extrapolate and interpolate proper behavior and habits, and, most importantly, instigate the correct internal framework.

A few things I could give you, that you might already know though, would be to…

1) Direct, don’t ask. Say you are picking between two restaurants with your LTR. If you want her opinion, you can ask her “how do you feel about thai?”, as that is more of a closed question than “what do you want to eat?”. Either way, still make the final decision.

2) Playful slaps and grabbing of the ass, tits, stomach, etc. It makes them feel desired and feminine, while objectified at the same time.

3) Definitely fuck your chick, and tell her that you are going to fuck her. There is making love, having sex, and fucking. All three are appropriate at times, but fucking (and you should know what this entails) ups the alpha.

4) Put yourself in situations with other attractive girls, but maintain plausible deniability. In a LTR you shouldn’t be going out to bars to scam chicks if you don’t want your SO scamming for dicks, but work functions, co-ed sport leagues, house parties, etc. where there are other hot chicks will have your girl mate guarding if you come with the proper attitude.

5) If you lift weights (and you should), leave your sweaty clothes out where they can be smelled by your SO and get close to your SO when back from the gym, before a shower. The testosterone laiden pheremones in the sweat will have a much greater affect during the ovulation phase.

Being older than most on here, I’ve seen this non-sense over and over. I always found it interesting when I was in college long ago, women would say how they wanted X, Y, Z which wasn’t anything like me, but yet, they would come over for the night and then go back to their beta BFs. One of the most memorable was one whom I had known since she was a senior in HS – she actually got an idiot to marry her by playing the chaste virgin in college, and after every date with this idiot she would come to my place for a good shagging – “to work the randiness out”.

I almost felt sorry for the idiot on his wedding day since the night before his little bride-to-be was part of a three-some with one of the brides-maids and myself. If anything after her marriage she was hornier, of course the fact that she was off BC and constantly going bareback was probably part of the kick for her. Stopped seeing her after she started to swell. It could be his, or mine – but he’s the one that is paying for that possible b*stard.

I really can’t find it in myself to feel sorry for such idiots that cannot see they are being played like a violin. Never waste your time with what a woman says – look at what she responds to. That is what matters – and it isn’t the beta… They may be useful idiots for raising alpha-spawn but that is all they are…

Of course, my knowledge of women is why I’m still single, enjoying what they throw at me for no strings attached. But I’ll never be foolish enough to do more than bang them, since I know how black their little hearts are… That is why I would insist on DNA tests, and tell my friends to insist on DNA tests. If the child is his, his wife won’t mind in the least – if she puts up a fuss, the kid is probably someone else’s. It really is that simple..

I had a rule about hats. No men wearing baseball hats. If a man was bald, I wanted him to own it. I broke my rule once because he looked like he had kind eyes. I shouldn’t have. The hat was a symbol of a deeper problem.

GeishaKate: I’m a long time manosphere reader and some time frequent commenter. I’ve been around since before you started commenting and have read many of your comments. For that reason I think you are a good-hearted and cool woman, much more willing than most to expose yourself to the pain of pretty lie destruction. But even you are subject to the same female blindspots sometimes.

I agree with Furious’ deconstruction of your comments wholeheartedly.

I would add something else. You state that you want a lot in a man because you offer a lot. But the question is, by which imperative do you offer a lot: the feminine or the masculine?

By the masculine imperative, the most valuable things a woman can offer are chasteness, youth, beauty, child-rearing availability, and wifely qualities. These are the instinctive triggers that attract men. An ideal woman is a beautiful 18-year old virgin who has never fallen in love and never been mind-molded by the toxic ideologies of the modern west. Anything beyond that is a compromise for the true alpha male.

Surely you have been around the manosphere long enough to understand the brutal truth that you simply do not and can not offer as much value to an alpha male as a woman much younger than yourself who has never married or given birth. Your philosophical nature, wit, intelligence, and independence mean about as much to an alpha man as the beta’s knowledge of C++ programming matters to attractive young women.

I am not saying this to attack you, and I do agree that you have worth. But let’s be frank, your worth is of the type that is only appealing to older beta males. This means you should narrow your “list” to guys over 50 who don’t have any current wives, diseases, or deformities, and then feel lucky if you are able to score anything beyond that —- and be THANKFUL for it.

It’s this wide disparity in a woman’s perception of her own SMV versus her actual SMV as determined by an alpha male, that causes so much of the pain in the navigation between genders.

Only when women can begin to more accurately assess their own SMV, and date accordingly, can the rifts begin to close.

‘I am not saying this to attack you, and I do agree that you have worth. But let’s be frank, your worth is of the type that is only appealing to older beta males. This means you should narrow your “list” to guys over 50 who don’t have any current wives, diseases, or deformities, and then feel lucky if you are able to score anything beyond that —- and be THANKFUL for it.’

LOL. She’s not that bad looking dude. She’s average and unfortunately over the wrong side of 30.

Anyways I thought she has a guy. Some kind of greater beta.

All and all she’s a cool girl. I don’t have the balls or patience to post at jezebel and argue with those harpies so you got to give her credit for that.

But when I first saw that her handle was basically kate I knew that someday I had to troll it.

@ itsme: insecurity; didn’t feel good enough. A man who says he isn’t good enough for you is right by the very fact that he said that.

@Bogart: I understand what you’re saying. I know I don’t offer the same things a younger woman does. I do feel I have a lot to offer in the way of femininity though. But, yes, what I was saying above was basically that if a guy isn’t even as much of a man as I am, its not going to work ;) I agree I have blindspots, but I’m not sure I want 20/20 vision. Some things cannot be unseen! I was that ideal 19 year old. I’ve already lived that portion of my life and I can’t unlive it. I think I’m doing okay, to be perfectly honest.

@FuriousFerret: There is no wrong side of thirty when you already have children. There is always someone older than you no matter how old you get. Yeah, I’m cool. So are most people here.

Unfortunately the reverse of this situation is the reality – the vast majority of men must fight an uphill battle from beta origins to Alpha transformation.

And the hill is even steeper for the Christian man because the Church tends to beat men with the shame stick pretty relentlessly. So he marries a born-again virgin and blames himself when she cheats on him.

Look up the 16 Commandments of Poon. That stuff is pure gold. Ponder each point seperately and think about how it fits into the whole picture of who you are. For us married guys I’m not advocating cheating to fullfill rule “Always keep two in the kitty” but go ahead and flirt with women. Realize that women are not hard to come by. You could go get another one if you wanted to. Foster the sexual energy that you have.

If you are dealing with problems then stop talking about them. You have probably said everything you need to say and despite what feminism will tell you, women don’t want to hear our problems. They don’t want to hear about our pain and weakness. Women want to think of us as strong and confident. Don’t ruin it by crying in front of them.

Never be afraid to stand behind a decision you make or something you say. Free yourself from the consequense of making a bad decision and just make one.

Stop asking her questions and start making statements about what you want, what you like, and what you want to do.

State your desires as oriented toward the outcome. Say “I want to take you out.” instead of “Would you like to go out?”. Or say “I want to have sex with you.” instead of “Would you like to have sex?”.

Stop trying to control your anger. I know you hear a lot in the manoshpere to never let a woman rile you up but if you are angry and you believe in your position go ahead and yell at her. I bet you will like the results. A woman will appreciate a fight because it makes her feel like you are paying attention and that she has an emotional effect on you.

Have high standards whether it has to do with her behavior or dress or whatever. Don’t be afraid to say “I don’t like that dress”. At first the woman will feel bad because she wanted to look good. But after she changes she will be happy that you took notice and had the balls to say something. This kind of thing reflects back positively on her because she will think “He has high standards and he’s with me so that means I must be a quality woman.”

Get physical with her. Typical caveman stuff. Guide her out of the way when she’s in your way. Pick her up and carry her to the bedroom. Slap her ass. Corner her in the kitchen and don’t let her get away from you.

Give compliments sparingly and when you do make sure to include yourself in the compliment. Say “I like the way you look.” instead of “You look good.” This anchors you as the observer and how you feel about it instead of the compliment describing a trait that she has, like beauty.

Remember that to her commitment and relationship is like what sex is to you. You can leave the room or go out without her and it will have the same effect on her as when she witholds sex from you.

Work out. This builds confidence and helps you feel good about yourself both physically and mentally.

Have some hobbies and friends that actuall expand and improve your life.

Get out and away from her. Remember that the alpha would not waste his time on a woman that was not actively giving him flirtatious and sexual attention. The alpha has better things to do if he a woman is not active in appreciating him. He will find other things to do.

@Ted D, I know the feeling, the depression part of the pill for me is beginning to subside and I just feel liberated.

This comment section debate, along with the post, really cuts to the core of a semantics issue that is always around these debates. That issue being the word “attraction” (side note: after reading the post before people commented I immediately thought this applied to Emma the Emo based on previous comments I’ve read). I like to give this example, it’s the first time I turned down an easy one-night stand:

Long story short, I went out after being up for two days straight, started feeling tired at the bar, was propositioned, and turned it down in favor of leaving and going to sleep in my bed. at the time I was more “attracted” to going to sleep but it didn’t give me a boner.

What I’ve come to realize is that men use the word “attraction” implying “sexual/physical” attraction, whereas women use it to simply mean that they’re drawn to something (like a bed when they’re tired). I’m glad that this post came up and the debate ensued as it has really clarified a point of contention that has always existed in these discussions of what women are “attracted” to.

The cat is out of the bag ladies, don’t try to catch it, it’s a cheetah.

The “Perfect Woman” would be one where you could talk to her like this and she’d understand. Too bad she will NEVER exist.

I had a great talk with a couple of my friends tonight, all alpha in their own respect and in quality LTR’s. Could you ever tell a woman the whole truth? “Hon, I love our relationship and all, but, honestly, I see this chick in yoga class every Wednesday and I want to fuck her brains out. It’s killing me inside.”

We all came to the conclusion that you CAN’T ever tell a woman the whole truth. It’s what makes this scene so memorable. The husband (Will Ferrell/Frank the Tank) opens up about his most intimate feelings and she’s appalled. I don’t know if women will ever understand this. It’s one of life’s mysteries.

I think a woman with any knowledge at all would know deep down that you are still attracted to other women and probably have sexual dreams about them or wonder what they look like under their clothes. However, going on and on about it is inconsiderate, as most women find that stuff hurtful. You can’t talk to your wives like they are your male friends. But wives also can’t talk to their husbands like they can with their close female friends. A spouse is to be treated somewhat differently from just a friend, but it doesn’t mean there is lack of honesty between you. I hope you don’t feel too sad about the non-existence of the perfect woman. Having a girl who understands your masculine sexuality is probably enough (I think so because I feel having a man who understands my nature is enough, even though I can’t tell him how hot people around me are, every time they appear).

Perfect man? What women want? What are we searching for? Are we willing to know what does it mean “the perfect man” or what women “want” – only to be BETTER SLAVES? Are we so blinded by steam from our gonads that no matter what we know, we still stumble ignorantly/ in semi comatose state, into relationships with women and we are still willing to do everything just to have pussy?

Mastery of women means that we are no longer their tools as we have been designed (natural state of man is slavery to women – pure evolution) but we have our mission, our freedom and our peace of mind. According to my experiences – once you have those things, you honestly do not give a fuck about what women want and what is their perfect man. Once you really understand them you know that they are not worthy of deeper interest or consideration. You are living your own life and enjoying them as long as YOU want, on YOUR terms and as long as they behave.

My relationship towards them is like that of a mature man to children. I enjoy interactions with children. Their games are cute, they are amusing creatures. it is the same with women. I understand the pain necessary to digest this knowledge, but once digested, what is the reason for bitterness, anger or any other destructive emotions? They have been made that way and given their mission – ensure procreation in this meat market, it was necessary. It is up to us to FINALLY understand them and behave accordingly.

@ Mark – you seem to realize that your whole married life was a con job. You are no exception, but it is definitely not the mistake of your wife. Actually you are the one having two heads and you let the small one to dictate the terms.

That was a fun read about your shift in attitude towards work and women, Mark.

It may be that living in SE Asia has given me different opportunities, but I seem to have come up with a very different solution to the problem of women’s fickle hypergamous natures.

This morning I woke up to a hand cooked meal of fresh vegetables and fish, and a tall glass of freshly spun carrot juice. My girl worked on making some health supplement capsules for me, then got herself nicely made up, as we intend to go out shopping for toys.

Pump and dump sounds a lot better than being a slave to monogamy.

I’m pretty sure I’ve done most of the options available. One night stands, fuck buddies, brief flings, serial and parallel monogamy. I’ve been living with a young attractive girl for 2 years now, most of that only fucking her, and it’s not bad. The plan is to travel and do some more sport fucking and parallel monogamy with a new harem, but a two year stretch with a girl is not a bad way to spend time.

There are so many advantages to having a devoted love slave. A lot of us men feel a warmth in our chest that enlivens us when we are involved in a little mutual romance. I’d think it would be a big drop in life satisfaction to give that up altogether.

So game as it relates to getting a girl in bed is really only 1/10th of game. But the other 9/10ths most guys don’t seem to care about.

Open yourself up to experimentation. Try lots of different things and see what works. Don’t be afraid to fail and don’t be afraid to be an asshole.

Experimentation is key. Our culture has attempted to program us with vast numbers of expectations and rules for relationships. Break rules just for fun. You won’t know what really works or if it was just something somebody told you to do unless you experiment.

Just don’t be wishy washy about it. Try something with conviction. Keep an open mind and watch the results. Then incorporate that new information and behavior into your being.

Remember it’s all about your actions. She will notice when you change your actions and your stance around her.

[…] Lately, I was thinking about the tendency of chicks to drone on and on about how the dudes *they* want are the total opposite of what we all preach. Some girls will wander into manosphere comment threads, others have their own site dedicated to hooking a man (smartly), and still othertimes we see it in real life. They all claim they just want this Better Beta (TM). Many people say that it is girls being unaware of what they want or confusing attraction for arousal. […]