Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Zimmerman

TruckinMack wrote:

Pablo wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.

Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.

Being White is not a privilege. It is a skin color. It is incredibly racist to have different standards for different people just because of their skin color.

I used to live in Detroit. It was common for Black people to stop me and ask what a White boy was doing in their neighborhood. I never had a problem. The answer was virtually always, 'Going from point A to point B'. I never felt victimized because I was stalked and profiled. I was a stranger and they wanted to know what I was doing there. Good for them.

Here's the issue. You saw no problem with them asking questions. However, it cannot be denied that if I were to stop a black guy in my neighborhood and ask what he's doing there, I'd immediately be labeled a racist. Nevermind the fact that I've asked that same question to white teenagers roaming around my neighborhood who don't seem to be just 'passing through'.

And like it or not it still boils down to what I stated previously. People ARE profiled based on their looks, skin color, etc. You see a bald white guy with tons of tatoos, driving a motorcycle, wearing a leather vest with a motorcycle club patch on the back.....what is the likelihood you see him as a model citizen, and a doctor at the hospital?

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

July 24th, 2013, 3:40 pm

frok

Varsity Captain

Joined: August 9th, 2004, 1:51 amPosts: 288Location: kalamazoo,mi

Re: Zimmerman

m2karateman wrote:

TruckinMack wrote:

Pablo wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

I always just explained myself and went about my business, as MOST NORMAL INNOCENT KIDS DO.

Actually, that is what most normal WHITE kids do. I'm sorry, but if you stop a BLACK kid (innocent or not), and they are going to challenge you more. This has to do with their culture, this has to do with being profiled consistently.

Being White is not a privilege. It is a skin color. It is incredibly racist to have different standards for different people just because of their skin color.

I used to live in Detroit. It was common for Black people to stop me and ask what a White boy was doing in their neighborhood. I never had a problem. The answer was virtually always, 'Going from point A to point B'. I never felt victimized because I was stalked and profiled. I was a stranger and they wanted to know what I was doing there. Good for them.

Here's the issue. You saw no problem with them asking questions. However, it cannot be denied that if I were to stop a black guy in my neighborhood and ask what he's doing there, I'd immediately be labeled a racist. Nevermind the fact that I've asked that same question to white teenagers roaming around my neighborhood who don't seem to be just 'passing through'.

And like it or not it still boils down to what I stated previously. People ARE profiled based on their looks, skin color, etc. You see a bald white guy with tons of tatoos, driving a motorcycle, wearing a leather vest with a motorcycle club patch on the back.....what is the likelihood you see him as a model citizen, and a doctor at the hospital?

You just described 2 people I play golf with....But I know what you mean. I shave my almost bald head and have a fu-man-cheu (sp) am fairly large at 6'2" 250lbs. People I have met in the past have told me they thought I looked mean and tough. Not mean, but am opinionated, and far from tough. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but not all people that fall into that category just may look the part.

Frok

_________________I feel more like I do now than when I first got here.

July 25th, 2013, 1:13 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Zimmerman

Sure... But stereo types exist for a reason. They exist because 70-80-90% of the people that look that way are that type of person.

There are very few "stereo types" that can't be overcame by simply dressing nice, proper grooming, and speaking well. IMO, as a society, we're judged far more by our own decisions than our race, creed or color.

July 25th, 2013, 1:25 am

TruckinMack

Lionbacker Rehab Guru

Joined: January 26th, 2006, 9:08 pmPosts: 1272

Re: Zimmerman

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Sure... But stereo types exist for a reason. They exist because 70-80-90% of the people that look that way are that type of person.

There are very few "stereo types" that can't be overcame by simply dressing nice, proper grooming, and speaking well. IMO, as a society, we're judged far more by our own decisions than our race, creed or color.

Yep. Trayvon walks through Zimmerman's neighborhood dressed in a 3 piece suit and holding an umbrella, Zimmerman doesn't give him another thought. Zimmerman took the totality of Martin's dress and actions and thought they were suspicious. That is not racism. That is smart.

_________________Climate Change - happening every second, of every minute of every day ever since the world was created. Needless to say it's man's fault.

July 25th, 2013, 4:53 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Zimmerman

TruckinMack wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

Sure... But stereo types exist for a reason. They exist because 70-80-90% of the people that look that way are that type of person.

There are very few "stereo types" that can't be overcame by simply dressing nice, proper grooming, and speaking well. IMO, as a society, we're judged far more by our own decisions than our race, creed or color.

Yep. Trayvon walks through Zimmerman's neighborhood dressed in a 3 piece suit and holding an umbrella, Zimmerman doesn't give him another thought. Zimmerman took the totality of Martin's dress and actions and thought they were suspicious. That is not racism. That is smart.

Yep. Trayvon walks through Zimmerman's neighborhood dressed in a 3 piece suit and holding an umbrella, Zimmerman doesn't give him another thought. Zimmerman took the totality of Martin's dress and actions and thought they were suspicious. That is not racism. That is smart.

Zimmerman's conclusions were wrong, though. Martin was not doing anything wrong. As a result of him calling it wrong (and other factors of equal or greater importance, but this was certainly one), Martin is dead and Zimmerman's spent a pretty crap few months I'd imagine. How anyone can describe what anyone did in this (Zimmerman or Martin) as smart is frankly beyond me.

For me, this is far the best thing I've read on the case. Zimmerman wasn't guilty, but he was stupid. Martin didn't deserve to be shot, but he was stupid. The reactions on both sides have been often based on exaggerations or outright distortions, and the conclusions people are often reaching are extreme and not supported. The whole thing is a mess.

Trayvon Martin is dead, George Zimmerman has been acquitted, and millions of people are outraged. Some politicians are demanding a second prosecution of Zimmerman, this time for hate crimes. Others are blaming the tragedy on “Stand Your Ground” laws, which they insist must be repealed. Many who saw the case as proof of racism in the criminal justice system see the verdict as further confirmation. Everywhere you look, people feel vindicated in their bitter assumptions. They want action.

But that’s how Martin ended up dead. It’s how Zimmerman ended up with a bulletproof vest he might have to wear for the rest of his life. It’s how activists and the media embarrassed themselves with bogus reports. The problem at the core of this case wasn’t race or guns. The problem was assumption, misperception, and overreaction. And that cycle hasn’t ended with the verdict. It has escalated.

I almost joined the frenzy. Yesterday I was going to write that Zimmerman pursued Martin against police instructions and illustrated the perils of racial profiling. But I hadn’t followed the case in detail. So I sat down and watched the closing arguments: nearly seven hours of video in which the prosecution and defense went point by point through the evidence as it had been hashed out at the trial. Based on what I learned from the videos, I did some further reading.

It turned out I had been wrong about many things. The initial portrait of Zimmerman as a racist wasn’t just exaggerated. It was completely unsubstantiated. It’s a case study in how the same kind of bias that causes racism can cause unwarranted allegations of racism. Some of the people Zimmerman had reported as suspicious were black men, so he was a racist. Members of his family seemed racist, so he was a racist. Everybody knew he was a racist, so his recorded words were misheard as racial slurs, proving again that he was a racist.

The 911 dispatcher who spoke to Zimmerman on the fatal night didn’t tell him to stay in his car. Zimmerman said he was following a suspicious person, and the dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that." Chief prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda conceded in his closing argument that these words were ambiguous. De la Rionda also acknowledged, based on witness and forensic evidence, that both men “were scraping and rolling and fighting out there.” He pointed out that the wounds, blood evidence, and DNA didn’t match Zimmerman’s story of being thoroughly restrained and pummeled throughout the fight. But the evidence didn’t fit the portrait of Martin as a sweet-tempered child, either. And the notion that Zimmerman hunted down Martin to accost him made no sense. Zimmerman knew the police were on the way. They arrived only a minute or so after the gunshot. The fight happened in a public area surrounded by townhouses at close range. It was hardly the place or time to start shooting.

That doesn’t make Zimmerman a hero. It just makes him a reckless fool instead of a murderer. In a post-verdict press conference, his lawyer, Mark O’Mara, claimed that “the evidence supported that George Zimmerman did nothing wrong,” that “the jury decided that he acted properly in self-defense,” and that Zimmerman “was never guilty of anything except protecting himself in self-defense. I’m glad that the jury saw it that way.” That’s complete BS. The only thing the jury decided was that there was reasonable doubt as to whether Zimmerman had committed second-degree murder or manslaughter.Zimmerman is guilty, morally if not legally, of precipitating the confrontation that led to Martin’s death. He did many things wrong. Mistake No. 1 was inferring that Martin was a burglar. In his 911 call, Zimmerman cited Martin’s behavior. “It’s raining, and he’s just walking around” looking at houses, Zimmerman said. He warned the dispatcher, “He’s got his hand in his waistband.” He described Martin’s race and clothing only after the dispatcher asked about them. Whatever its basis, the inference was false.

Mistake No. 2 was pursuing Martin on foot. Zimmerman had already done what the neighborhood watch rules advised: He had called the police. They would have arrived, questioned Martin, and ascertained that he was innocent. Instead, Zimmerman, packing a concealed firearm, got out and started walking after Martin. Zimmerman’s initial story, that he was trying to check the name of the street, was so laughable that his attorneys abandoned it. He was afraid Martin would get away. So he followed Martin, hoping to update the cops.

Mistake No. 3 was Zimmerman’s utter failure to imagine how his behavior looked to Martin. You’re a black kid walking home from a convenience store with Skittles and a fruit drink. Some dude in a car is watching and trailing you. God knows what he wants. You run away. He gets out of the car and follows you. What are you supposed to do? In Zimmerman’s initial interrogation, the police expressed surprise that he hadn’t identified himself to Martin as a neighborhood watch volunteer. They suggested that Martin might have been alarmed when Zimmerman reached for an object that Zimmerman, but not Martin, knew was a phone. Zimmerman seemed baffled. He was so convinced of Martin’s criminal intent that he hadn’t considered how Martin, if he were innocent, would perceive his stalker.

Martin, meanwhile, was profiling Zimmerman. On his phone, he told a friend he was being followed by a “creepy-ass cracker.” The friend—who later testified that this phrase meant pervert—advised Martin, “You better run.” She reported, as Zimmerman did, that Martin challenged Zimmerman, demanding to know why he was being hassled. If Zimmerman’s phobic misreading of Martin was the first wrong turn that led to their fatal struggle, Martin’s phobic misreading of Zimmerman may have been the second.

In court, evidence and scrutiny have exposed these difficult, complicated truths. But outside the court, ideologues are ignoring them. They’re oversimplifying a tragedy that was caused by oversimplification. Martin has become Emmett Till. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is using the verdict to attack Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which wasn’t invoked in this case. The grievance industrial complex is pushing the Department of Justice to prosecute Zimmerman for bias-motivated killing, based on evidence that didn’t even support a conviction for unpremeditated killing. Zimmerman’s lawyers have teamed up with members of the Congressional Black Caucus, inadvertently, to promote the false message that Zimmerman’s acquittal means our society thinks everything he did was OK.

It wasn’t OK. It was stupid and dangerous. It led to the unnecessary death of an innocent young man. It happened because two people—their minds clouded by stereotypes that went well beyond race—assumed the worst about one another and acted in haste. If you want to prevent the next Trayvon Martin tragedy, learn from their mistakes. Don’t paint the world in black and white. Don’t declare the whole justice system racist, or blame every gun death on guns, or confuse acquittal with vindication. And the next time you see somebody who looks like a punk or a pervert, hold your fire.

I haven't read his entire thread and have no intention to, but, you know me, I'm gonna state my opinion anyway. Justice was served. The police at the scene of the "incident" made the proper determination that no charges should be filed, but the "true" racists (Sharpton, Jackson, and the motley crew at MSNBC and CNN) made an issue of it and forced their hands. Millions of dollars were wasted on a "show" trial to advance a political agenda. It's truly sad if you think about it.

What about the dozens of black boys and men who are killed on a daily basis by other black boys and men? Are their lives less important or their deaths less tragic than Travon Martin's? Do their families grieve less? Why don't their deaths get the same media coverage? Why don't people care? It's because their deaths don't advance a particular political agenda and if you can't see that, you're probably too stupid to live. Wake the F*ck up!

On the bright side of justice, George Zimmerman is gonna get millions from NBC for editing his 911 call. They won't want that to go to trial, so they'll pay him off instead. Don't settle for a million, George. Don't even settle for 10 million. Make them pay 100 million, so NBC and the rest of the corrupt media won't substitute a political agenda for facts, while blatantly lying to the American people to support that agenda. Stick it to them!

I forgot to add that white liberals are the biggest racists on the planet. Just watch. They'll be talking about race when the conversation has nothing to do with race.

BTW, Democrats created the KKK , yet they lie about that fact. Think for yourself and learn.

_________________

July 28th, 2013, 3:58 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Zimmerman

There were some good things in that article, but there was also an element that the writer hounds Zimmerman and Martin on.....assumption.

The writer ASSUMES that Martin was innocent. Innocent of what? That he wasn't looking in the windows of houses, and looking suspicious as a result? Sorry, but if he was doing that, it is not an innocent act. The question is, was Martin doing that or not? Based on his history and the phone call Zimmerman made, I'd have to say he was definitely doing something strange, and not just innocently walking home. Also, he claims that there were injuries suffered by both Zimmerman and Martin as a result of the fight. Yet, it was shown that the more serious injuries outside of the gun shot would were suffered by Zimmerman. Again, some assumptions made on the part of the writer to say that the 'fight' was nothing more than two guys going at it instead of an outright attack, with one man the aggressor and the other man defending himself from harm.

So, I've said from the beginning that Zimmerman made some questionable decisions. However, we are ALL GUILTY of that on occasion. The crimes committed were by Trayvon Martin. Trespassing and aggravated assault are prosecutable offenses. Being foolish is not. And saying that Zimmerman acted 'recklessly' in shooting Martin is absolute bullsh!t. Again, I invite ANYONE to allow me to get atop you and just start raining down punches on you for 40 seconds. I guarantee you the most stalwart anti-gun person in the world will be praying for a gun after about 15 seconds of getting bashed repeatedly.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

July 29th, 2013, 1:54 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Zimmerman

m2karateman wrote:

There were some good things in that article, but there was also an element that the writer hounds Zimmerman and Martin on.....assumption.

The writer ASSUMES that Martin was innocent. Innocent of what? That he wasn't looking in the windows of houses, and looking suspicious as a result? Sorry, but if he was doing that, it is not an innocent act. The question is, was Martin doing that or not? Based on his history and the phone call Zimmerman made, I'd have to say he was definitely doing something strange, and not just innocently walking home. Also, he claims that there were injuries suffered by both Zimmerman and Martin as a result of the fight. Yet, it was shown that the more serious injuries outside of the gun shot would were suffered by Zimmerman. Again, some assumptions made on the part of the writer to say that the 'fight' was nothing more than two guys going at it instead of an outright attack, with one man the aggressor and the other man defending himself from harm.

So, I've said from the beginning that Zimmerman made some questionable decisions. However, we are ALL GUILTY of that on occasion. The crimes committed were by Trayvon Martin. Trespassing and aggravated assault are prosecutable offenses. Being foolish is not. And saying that Zimmerman acted 'recklessly' in shooting Martin is absolute bullsh!t. Again, I invite ANYONE to allow me to get atop you and just start raining down punches on you for 40 seconds. I guarantee you the most stalwart anti-gun person in the world will be praying for a gun after about 15 seconds of getting bashed repeatedly.

I agree completely M2.

What people seem to have such a problem with is, the altercation could have been so easily avoided. What they can't seem to come to grips with, are the facts that 1) ZImmerman was being a good citizen following Martin, 2) that Zimmerman had the RIGHT to follow Martin, and any good property owner should have, and 3) people keep saying that Travon didn't deserve to die for his actions, but they only hold him responsible for the actions up to the point of the assault. They look at his trespassing, peeping in windows, etc. and think to themselves "those aren't acts punishable by death." However, that's not what ultimately lead to his demise... It was his viscous attack and beating of Zimmerman that warranted him being shot. People want to let Martin off the hook for the beating with this ridiculous "he started it" argument by saying the Zimmerman shouldn't have been following Martin, but that is completely false.

July 29th, 2013, 3:51 pm

njroar

QB Coach

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3220

Re: Zimmerman

^ agree

People also buy into the "just heading home" message. He bought the skittles and ice tea and than waited outside while 3 people walked in and bought blunts for him. He then headed towards home. But he didn't go home. Home was .60 miles away, and it took him 40 minutes to get there. Whatever happened to the blunts? Notice this wasn't ever allowed in evidence just like the phone information wasn't allowed either. If he was "just heading home," he would have been home 20-25 minutes before Zimmerman drove by.

Edit - Also look up the recreational drug called "lean" or "purple drank." Cough medicine + Soda (Watermelon Arizona is most popular) + Jolly ranchers or Skittles. If you know nothing of his history of suspensions, it could easily be wiped away by coincidence, but not once you include it.

July 30th, 2013, 12:03 am

Blueskies

QB Coach

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3084

Re: Zimmerman

Purple drank is made with Sprite and Jolly Ranchers, not Skittles and watermelon iced tea.

And of course, where was his cough medicine? The most important ingredient?

It's that assumption that's seen Zimmerman (rightly) kept out of jail.

Good to see njroar's learnt nothing from the screwdriver and jewelry error and is back for more with allegations of purple drank too.

And we know Trayvon was looking into people's windows etc how? I didn't hear any mention of it on Zimmerman's call to the police dispatcher, you think he might of mentioned it? He didn't even mention this fact in his TV interview.

I get that people think Zimmerman is innocent. I'm of that opinion too. But the instinct to demonize Martin, and make out that Zimmerman did what any sensible person should have done, from those who think Zimmerman is innocent is IMO a shame.

Zimmerman acted absolutely stupidly. Calling the police was the only sensible thing he did, everything after that was reckless. Martin equally acted stupidly and paid the highest price.

Those who want to demonize Martin, with false allegations of gangsta facebook pics, screwdrivers on the night in question, purple drank etc should question their motives - are they trying to get at the truth or push a narrative they prefer? Those who want to demonize Zimmerman, with false allegations of racism, edited phone calls etc should ask themselves the same question. Two sides of the same coin, and I find it incredible that 90% of the comment and discussion of the whole thing is based on these two extremes. I don't know if it's a "fight fire with fire" instinct or what - but it saddens me, I have to say.

July 30th, 2013, 2:34 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: Zimmerman

UK Lion wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

The writer ASSUMES that Martin was innocent.

It's that assumption that's seen Zimmerman (rightly) kept out of jail.

Good to see njroar's learnt nothing from the screwdriver and jewelry error and is back for more with allegations of purple drank too.

And we know Trayvon was looking into people's windows etc how? I didn't hear any mention of it on Zimmerman's call to the police dispatcher, you think he might of mentioned it? He didn't even mention this fact in his TV interview.

I get that people think Zimmerman is innocent. I'm of that opinion too. But the instinct to demonize Martin, and make out that Zimmerman did what any sensible person should have done, from those who think Zimmerman is innocent is IMO a shame.

Zimmerman acted absolutely stupidly. Calling the police was the only sensible thing he did, everything after that was reckless. Martin equally acted stupidly and paid the highest price.

Those who want to demonize Martin, with false allegations of gangsta facebook pics, screwdrivers on the night in question, purple drank etc should question their motives - are they trying to get at the truth or push a narrative they prefer? Those who want to demonize Zimmerman, with false allegations of racism, edited phone calls etc should ask themselves the same question. Two sides of the same coin, and I find it incredible that 90% of the comment and discussion of the whole thing is based on these two extremes. I don't know if it's a "fight fire with fire" instinct or what - but it saddens me, I have to say.

Zimmerman started the 911 call by stating that he was "looking about," that "something was up with him," and that he "looked like he was on drugs."

The "demonizing" of Martin seems a lot closer to the truth than the "innocent kid" theory. The thug pics, the screwdriver, the stolen jewelry, etc. aren't "false allegations" they are part of Travon Martin's past. The pictures are there. You can see them. They've been released (some of them). It's not a "fake made up thing."