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Re: How long before the next version??

Exactly right....And talk about irony! The *whole* reason why Microsoft made
those changes was to make VB.NET easier to learn for beginners. But the .NOTters
complained ...they didn't care if the language was easy or accessible to
beginners. Now they're complaining it's not easy enough. I wish the .NOTters
would make up their minds.

/Pat

"Jens" <jens@esalar.be> wrote:
>> >AndAlso anyone?
>>
>> Beta 2 rollback.
>
>Beta 2 rollback caused by the NOTters. Just as the silly Dim Something(3)
>As Integer gives you 4 elements ...
>It really isn't fair to use these arguments against VB.NET as they were
only
>put in in a useless effort to please the NOTters and make NETters out of
>them.
>
>Jens
>
>

Re: How long before the next version??

"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
news:3d52641d$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> "vinay" <vinay@angelfire.com> wrote:
<snip>
> >Also from looking through beginner's perspective, I found .NET
declarative
> >syntax (attributes) arcane when compared to class property grid.
>
> VB.NET still has a properties grid where you can set things like
BackColor,
> Font, etc so I'm not sure what you mean.

I believe he's referring to the property grid you get when you click on
a class in the project explorer. On the other hand, only two settings there
have any relevance in VB.NET (Persistable and MTSTransactionMode) and one of
them is definitely not within the beginner's purview.

If you consider that the set of attributes is now unlimited and that
they can apply to assemblies, classes, events, methods, enums, etc., its
easy to understand why they can't be practically incorporated into the
property grid.

Re: How long before the next version??

"Daniel Pratt" <dprREMOVETHISatt71@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I believe he's referring to the property grid you get when you click
on
>a class in the project explorer. On the other hand, only two settings there
>have any relevance in VB.NET (Persistable and MTSTransactionMode) and one
of
>them is definitely not within the beginner's purview.
>
> If you consider that the set of attributes is now unlimited and that
>they can apply to assemblies, classes, events, methods, enums, etc., its
>easy to understand why they can't be practically incorporated into the
>property grid.
>

Yes, u r right, I was reffering to class property grid. However, I was not
talking about specific properties/settings but rather about the way to access/set
them. Wouldn't it be nice if u click on class code in VS IDE and right click
for properties /attributes where a grid will tell me what attrbutes are applicable
to class and what r there meaning (help string) and insight about values
etc. as opposed to searching in help then typing it out.
I don't know whether it is practical or not, I am just pointing out that
its more arcane than accesing from property grid or some other such way :
attribute wizard etc.

Re: How long before the next version??

You're a funny guy.

Another POV from the eyes of a beginner...

We'll start with VB6...
1...Create a new standard exe.
2...You go to the tool box looking for some sort of file open dialog
control.
3...You decide to look it up in the help file. You do a search for open file
dialog. You actually get back 172 hits.
4.. You might be a beginner, but you're not stupid. You click to sort by
Location, and scroll down to VB
5...First VB item is Dialog Boxes. It talks about modal/modeless,
predefined, and forms. But wait! .. there's a See Also link, and that says
"CommonDialog Control". That page says something about "adding it to a
form", but doesn't say how. But does say control, just like those things in
that toolbox thingy I looked in first. What if I right-click on the toolbox?
.... Hey, "Components ...", and double-hey, MS CommonDialog Control. Great!
I've just learned how to add a control to a toolbox, something that will
stick with me as long as I program VB.

Or until they change things.

C'mon Pat ... you post is hardly worth the electrons you killed in order to
make it.

And more realistically, what's more likely to occur is:

We'll start with VB6...
1...Create a new standard exe.
2...You go to the tool box looking for some sort of file open dialog
control.
3...you don't see one, so you call your friend, who tells you how to add and
set its properties because everyone is using real VB. Now, if your friend
used .nyet, how helpful could he really been?

Re: How long before the next version??

"Randy Birch" <rgb@mvps.org> wrote:
>You're a funny guy.
>
>3...You decide to look it up in the help file. You do a search for open
file
>dialog. You actually get back 172 hits.

I just double checked and it does indeed return 500 hits. Perhaps we're using
different versions of the MSDN library?
>4.. You might be a beginner, but you're not stupid. You click to sort by
>Location, and scroll down to VB

No, the first entry for VB is 'Adding HTML Templates to the Webclass'. So
that step still doesn't help. I could add your suggestion to the list of
VB6 steps I originally posted but that would actually make the VB6 list longer.

>C'mon Pat ... you post is hardly worth the electrons you killed in order
to
>make it.

No, not for people with closed minds. But that's not my intended audience.

BTW, your list of steps for VB6 are still longer than VB.NET's. Even if you
were right, I'm not sure you actually proved anything.

Re: How long before the next version??

"Dan Barclay" <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote in message
news:bfc3lu8pun63ghvb141dqsp4a8ts39ju51@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:19:42 -0600, "Tim Overbay"
> <luhar@neverendingsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> >I have yet to see somebody from the VB6 camp post a similar side-by-side
> >comparison that shows VB6 is easier to use. Care to take on that
challenge?
>
> Actually I hadn't thought of it that way. Which is easier to use
> isn't (and has never been) an issue to me.
>
> The issue is Language *Stability*. Whether it's easier or even more
> difficult isn't as important as the ability to retain code assets.

And therein lies the real cause of your dramaqueenizations. You don't care
that VB.NET is now easier, more productive and more capable. All you care
about is running your old code forever. I'd suggest keeping your copies of
VB6 around for that. No doubt the wizard will improve until you will be able
to move you code to VB.NET one day. I wonder if you will use any of the new
features when that happens or just go lloking for or re-writing all those
old commands that were dropped from QuickBasic....
> Which is easier may depend on what you're doing and/or your point of
> view. But, does it matter?

Re: How long before the next version??

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:29:59 +0100, "Kunle Odutola"
<kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> >I have yet to see somebody from the VB6 camp post a similar side-by-side
>> >comparison that shows VB6 is easier to use. Care to take on that
>challenge?
>>
>> Actually I hadn't thought of it that way. Which is easier to use
>> isn't (and has never been) an issue to me.
>>
>> The issue is Language *Stability*. Whether it's easier or even more
>> difficult isn't as important as the ability to retain code assets.
>
>And therein lies the real cause of your dramaqueenizations. You don't care
>that VB.NET is now easier, more productive and more capable.

You are presuming that it wouldn't have been made easier, more
productive, and more capable without breaking it? We've been there
before and you know the answer.
>All you care
>about is running your old code forever.

Of course that's not *all* I care about, or I wouldn't care to move
forward and this wouldn't be an issue for me. Use a little logic.
>I'd suggest keeping your copies of
>VB6 around for that.
>No doubt the wizard will improve until you will be able
>to move you code to VB.NET one day.

One day? Wizard? YeaRight. About the time it gets converted they'll
"improve" it again. "How long before the next version?" should
include "how many versions before they break it again (again)?"
>I wonder if you will use any of the new
>features when that happens or just go lloking for or re-writing all those
>old commands that were dropped from QuickBasic....

Yes Knule, you should have them do it one way or the other. Either
put it back, or fix it right.

There is no reason for them to leave inconsistent statement syntax.
Have them fix it (or do you not like improvement?).
>> Which is easier may depend on what you're doing and/or your point of
>> view. But, does it matter?
>
>MS and it's customers seem to think so...

Yea, its customers (you know, the ones that did useful things with VB)
are flocking on board. Lesse... one, two, three, four...

In a few years someone inside MS will ask how successful (or how much
more successful) .Net would have been had they upgraded VB more
effectively.

Re: How long before the next version??

"Dan Barclay" <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote in message
news:mklglu8b3ljb3ala50qoahdtaiu6u07igm@4ax.com...
> >> The issue is Language *Stability*. Whether it's easier or even more
> >> difficult isn't as important as the ability to retain code assets.
> >
> >And therein lies the real cause of your dramaqueenizations. You don't
care
> >that VB.NET is now easier, more productive and more capable.
>
> You are presuming that it wouldn't have been made easier, more
> productive, and more capable without breaking it? We've been there
> before and you know the answer.

Yep. It wouldn't. It needed breaking to make it better. All we can argue
about is how much breaking.
I concur that While...Wend wasn't critical "breakage" ;-)
> >> Which is easier may depend on what you're doing and/or your point of
> >> view. But, does it matter?
> >
> >MS and it's customers seem to think so...
>
> Yea, its customers (you know, the ones that did useful things with VB)
> are flocking on board. Lesse... one, two, three, four...

....maybe even five....hundred thousand and counting. Half a mil ain't bad
for a radical upgrade.
I put the number nearer two-three hundred thousands from info we got.
> In a few years someone inside MS will ask how successful (or how much
> more successful) .Net would have been had they upgraded VB more
> effectively.

Yep. And the answer would be: ..."VB6.NET would have gone the way of the
Dodo. C# and J# would have seen to that."

Re: How long before the next version??

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:02:24 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
>The question is how much more successful this
>process would have been had they chosen to include (target) those with
>proven, successful, applications.

Yeah yeah, heard it a thousand times before Dan. What I want to know is
when you're going to do something other than complain about what MS had
done. Regardless of what might happen WRT vba scripting types of
applications I seriously doubt there will ever be a VB on .net that runs
your code unchanged. So you might as well decide what you're going to do
and get on with doing it.