:::::I thought so ... Thanks. See what I added beneath the Unburnt Bush and tell me if this is the sort of thing you were recommending? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:10, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

:::::I thought so ... Thanks. See what I added beneath the Unburnt Bush and tell me if this is the sort of thing you were recommending? [[User:Ixthis888|Vasiliki]] 02:10, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

+

+

::::::I would use standard footnoting in the article. [[User:Frjohnwhiteford|Frjohnwhiteford]] 11:19, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

+

+

:::::Thank you Father for this question. To be honest I am not certain of the validity of the connections and that is why I wanted to list them in the TalkPage first -- all of the examples I listed above (except for the Feasts of the Lord) came from a full-year Medieval Art & Art History survey course I had taken long ago at the University of Toronto; I believe the instructor was listing a series of these types/antitypes '''supposedly''' based on *actual* iconographic examples where these connections were made in early Christian and Medieval Churches; however I am not sure if this is the case, and if so, how to identify those buildings; in the absence (to my knowledge) of any known formal statement of connection made by th Church, it will require further research I agree to be sure. I just wanted to get the ball rolling by showing the types of examples we can include, and how we should list them once we agree on them. (''I also have heard of the example Vasiliki gives above of the Burnish Bush and the Theotokos, and there is of course an icon of this particular typology, which we can include on the article as an excellent example'').

+

:::::As for the feasts of the Lord, I first heard of this from a modern day Messianic Jewish preacher (''who is not at all a stranger to criticism/controversy even among Messianic groups'') named Michael Rood. Although he is a non-Orthodox source, nevertheless when I heard of these typologies they captured my attention and share them here for discussion/debate (for example, we already know of Christ in the Orthodox Church as our "Passover", referred to somewhere in the Easter service books is it not? ); the others Feasts have a very powerful co-relation I think, and I am humbly submitting this to the administrators/clergy for further consideration (or dismissal) one way or the other, so we can learn. Hope this clarifies my above listings. Will try and do true research further as time permits. Many thanks. Cheers :):)

Latest revision as of 11:19, December 3, 2008

Contents

Typologies: O.T. themes that are ante-types of N.T. themes

Hello, I propose we draw up a point-form list to add in the article of Old Testament themes that are ante-types/typologies to New Testmanet themes. This should include as many typologies that we are aware of.

In an art history course I have taken I learned that several early Christian churches (church buildings) had written their Iconography (interior church iconography) by paralleling Old and New Testament themes, which were drawn opposite eachother (facing eachother, at the same but opposite points of the interior church walls). So that many of these typologies were known and important in the early church.

Here is a rough list that perhaps can be edited (for accuracy) and/or added to (for completeness), and then included in the article as a separate section.

I am also recently aware of some typolgies (listed below and submitted for consideration), of the actual Old Testament Feasts of the Israelites (of the Lord), with the corresponding New Testament Feasts; would appreciate any comments from the clergy as to whether these are valid typologies, or undecided themes as yet. :)

Themes of Redemption

High Priest and King Melchizedek offers bread and wine to Abraham after his victory -- Institution of the Eucharist.

Feast of Abraham and the three men in the Valley of Mambre -- Prefiguration of the Holy Trinity

Manna -- Multiplication of loaves and fish.

Adam and Eve expelled -- The Anastasis.

Themes of Suffering

Fall of Adam and Eve -- Christ led to the Crucifixion

Sacrifice of Isaac -- Arrest and Sacrifice of Christ

Job in his suffering -- Arrest of St Peter

Jonah spends three days and nights in the belly of a great fish -- Jesus' three days and nights in the grave.

Here is my first contribution to help Angellight888, I hope it is a good starting point

In Eastern Orthodox parlance, the preferred name for the event is The Unburnt Bush, and the theology and hymnography of the church view it as prefiguring the virgin birth of Christ; the theology refers to the Theotokos as the God bearer, viewing her as having given birth to the Incarnate Logos without suffering any harm, or loss of her virginity, in parallel to the bush being burnt without being consumed.

I think this is a good idea, but just to be clear, it is "Antitype" not "Ante-Type," and the Antitype is what we find in the New Testament. The Old Testament Type is that which foreshadows the Antitype. Also, some of the Type / Antitype connections above I would want to know where this connection is made in the Scriptures, Fathers, or Services of the Church. Frjohnwhiteford 01:18, December 2, 2008 (UTC)

Hello, can I ask a question of Fr John Whiteford please. When you ask about knowing where the connection is made ... is this to provide proof or just as interest? Vasiliki 02:20, December 2, 2008 (UTC)

This is just to ensure that the connections have some real basis in the tradition of the Church. Frjohnwhiteford 11:37, December 2, 2008 (UTC)

I thought so ... Thanks. See what I added beneath the Unburnt Bush and tell me if this is the sort of thing you were recommending? Vasiliki 02:10, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

I would use standard footnoting in the article. Frjohnwhiteford 11:19, December 3, 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Father for this question. To be honest I am not certain of the validity of the connections and that is why I wanted to list them in the TalkPage first -- all of the examples I listed above (except for the Feasts of the Lord) came from a full-year Medieval Art & Art History survey course I had taken long ago at the University of Toronto; I believe the instructor was listing a series of these types/antitypes supposedly based on *actual* iconographic examples where these connections were made in early Christian and Medieval Churches; however I am not sure if this is the case, and if so, how to identify those buildings; in the absence (to my knowledge) of any known formal statement of connection made by th Church, it will require further research I agree to be sure. I just wanted to get the ball rolling by showing the types of examples we can include, and how we should list them once we agree on them. (I also have heard of the example Vasiliki gives above of the Burnish Bush and the Theotokos, and there is of course an icon of this particular typology, which we can include on the article as an excellent example).

As for the feasts of the Lord, I first heard of this from a modern day Messianic Jewish preacher (who is not at all a stranger to criticism/controversy even among Messianic groups) named Michael Rood. Although he is a non-Orthodox source, nevertheless when I heard of these typologies they captured my attention and share them here for discussion/debate (for example, we already know of Christ in the Orthodox Church as our "Passover", referred to somewhere in the Easter service books is it not? ); the others Feasts have a very powerful co-relation I think, and I am humbly submitting this to the administrators/clergy for further consideration (or dismissal) one way or the other, so we can learn. Hope this clarifies my above listings. Will try and do true research further as time permits. Many thanks. Cheers :):)