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Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pmPosts: 6051Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere

MTGuru wrote:

Actually, if anything, I'd guess it's the other way around ... That "so long" is a misheard "slán" from Irish immigrants in America.

I think that's what was meant.

It certainly seems plausible. "So long" is one of those idioms you don't think much about...until you do think about them and realize they don't make much sense. I could easily see someone mishearing "slán" as "so long."

Redwolf

_________________...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!

Hmm. The 1860 date of first attestation with Whitman follows the great wave of Irish immigration. And the class origins. And the working classes of Liverpool. All point to Irish as pretty plausible, I'd say.

I couldnt possibly take the credit for it. All dues go to the Dublin Viking Museum where I took the tour with the kids round 10years ago . Where I live in Belfast we still retain alot of the grammatical structures of Irish if not the words themselves. We still say `I be down in Maddens` as a way of saying `I am usually in Maddens`, and there are alot of other examples besides.

1836, kye-bosk, in slang phrase put the kibosh on, of unknown origin, despite intense speculation. Looks Yiddish, but origin in early 19c. English slang seems to argue against this. One candidate is Ir. caip bháis, caipín báis "cap of death," sometimes said to be the black cap a judge would don when pronouncing a death sentence, but in other sources identified as a gruesome method of execution "employed by Brit. forces against 1798 insurgents" [Bernard Share, "Slanguage, A Dictionary of Irish Slang"].

_________________Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa

Merriam-Webster sez that the Latin durus (hard) is the source, and the word "dour" itself is from Middle English. But who knows; this stuff gets convoluted after a bit of time, and even the best dictionaries evade infallibility. Anyway and FWIW, in reasonably typical Yank fashion I defiantly continue to pronounce it "daur" (not quite "dower"), and above all with rhotic R as God intended, and rightly, I think.

Immoderator mentions Liverpool,where a common - and unique - term of affection is 'wack'.But I've only heard it applied to men/boys.Surely from 'a mhac' - 'son'?

Redwolf -I was 'corrected' by a fellow Irishman for writing 'Slán' on the end of a greeting card! Quite a lot of indifference to the ould teanga here I'm afraid.Perhaps if I'd used 'slán tamall' or 'slan go foill' he may have copped on.I'd be very wary of books sold in tourist destinations here in Ireland.Especially those which claim to tell you the origin of families or the meanings of personal and placenames.I've seen some almost hilarious clangers.As a general rule never buy a book with a leprechaun,a bunch of shamrocks or a pint of porter on the cover!

Nanohedron - non Rhotic accents are indeed the invention of Satan.But we musn't blame the victims.

A little late, but US Navy slang from my tenure 40 years ago: a "Brogan" was the typical low-cut working boot issued to new recruits. . .very much like the photo up-thread. The mobile kitchen van that invariably showed up for breakfast and coffee breaks was referred to as "the Gee-dunk wagon" (derivation unknown) and its wares referred to as "Pogie-bait" (from Pogue I would guess). I had heard that to say someone spoke with a Brogue was a derogatory saying derived from the thought that they spoke with a 'shoe on the end of their tongue'. A bit of snobbery from those who had a little more mastery of the English than the countryman they were putting down. In the French-Canadian branch of my family, my Grandmother regularly made 'bannock', clearly named from Scot's usage. Not sure what the Gaelic would be for that.

Bob

_________________Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted