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I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Growing up in Conservative Judaism, I was taught that Reform Judaism is basically the Democratic Party with holidays. The Orthodox have always struck me as backward, but committed, and much more tolerant that Muslims, but that's because no branch of Judaism pretends that the Laws of Moses apply to Goyim. That's the fundamental difference between Islam and other religions. Sharia not only governs the conduct of Muslims, it governs the conduct of non-Muslims, and imposes obligations on them (and some pretty vile obligations, too).

Originally Posted by m00

Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

That's one religion that really just needs a reformation.

Yes, but it's going to be a vicious and bloody reformation. The Protestant Reformation was the result of two trends colliding. The first was the rise of secular powers that were strong enough to counter the church, and the second was the decline of church authority due to the accumulated baggage of over a millenium of infighting, corruption and temptation. The Catholic Church of the Renaissance was a shadow of its former self in terms of power and moral authority, while the advent of Kings with centralized power and control of whole nations created a counterweight. Even with that, the subsequent religious wars were the bloodiest and most vicious conflicts ever seen in Europe. Imagine what happens when the mullahs lose control of their flocks.

Also, both Christianity and Judaism have traditional separations of temporal and spiritual power. Ancient Judea had kings as well as rabbis, and both had their spheres of authority. Even at the height of its powers, the Catholic Church never tried to usurp the authority of princes in the secular realm, and the princes respected the authority of Rome in the spiritual. It was only when the Protestants broke from the church that the Catholic monarchs tried to force them back into the fold through force of arms.

Originally Posted by Lanie

I was speaking with somebody else about this thread in private, and this poster suggested I say what I said in private here. I know I tend to be prideful in public with people with people who don't know me well, not allowing them to see what I really think, so here it goes.

Okay, there it was. I'll come back tonight or tomorrow night depending if I do stuff.

And you want to know why I can't be conservative. It doesn't even feel natural to me. Every time I consider it, I feel like I'm going to the dark side and that the cookies are stale. There's no compromising, no middle ground, no acknowledging the humanity of those different from you.

You refuse to live in reality and to learn from those who have a clue as to the things about which they speak. The fact that you would argue with people who have been there/done that/managed to live through it shows the depth of your emotional and intellectual immaturity, Bridget/Lanie/Jade.

TX is right, you know. You have pulled this same act since, what, '04? '05? Ask a question under the auspices of "learning" only to turn and argue with those whom you were asking for wisdom. That is something spoiled teenagers do, not rational adults. How is it, when the evidence of what has been said for years, hits you in the face and you whine about why you can't be a conservative? Some things are the way they are, dear, and we have to deal with them.

Islam has never been about "peace", it is about submission of non believers. If you cannot see the threat around you, how can you possibly hope to stop it when it seeks to consume the world? The islamists make no bones about what they want and what they are prepared to do to obtain it. They put it out there for all to see.

Where is your sense of reality, girl? Where is the adult sense of knowing when you are threatened and there is no negotiating with insane idealogues? For the love of all that is, wake up, little girl! Nobody here hates you, we're sick and tired of trying to make you see what is plainly in front of your eyes.

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

Iz-lamb is evil. "You will know them by their fruit."
It is based upon borrowed beliefs and practices from Judaism, Christianity and all the pagan religions from the pedophile prophet. He completely screwed up those beliefs due to his syphilitic brain and epilepsy, and spent the rest of his deranged life trying to justify and qualify those earlier writings full of contradictory statements with "new" revelations (fevered brain visions), by saying the newest revelations were the "real" revelations.
He "married" his older aunt and his 8 year old cousin. Sick doesn't begin to cover this disgusting pervert "Prophet."

As for the other moose-limbs you mention, they may proceed at any time at their cost to visit Iraq. How precious that they have no problem suggesting our troops go to their beloved homeland to die for something they are not willing to do themselves.

Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.C. S. LewisDo not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:Ayn Rand

Iz-lamb is evil. "You will know them by their fruit."
It is based upon borrowed beliefs and practices from Judaism, Christianity and all the pagan religions from the pedophile prophet. He completely screwed up those beliefs due to his syphilitic brain and epilepsy, and spent the rest of his deranged life trying to justify and qualify those earlier writings full of contradictory statements with "new" revelations (fevered brain visions), by saying the newest revelations were the "real" revelations.
He "married" his older aunt and his 8 year old cousin. Sick doesn't begin to cover this disgusting pervert "Prophet."

As for the other moose-limbs you mention, they may proceed at any time at their cost to visit Iraq. How precious that they have no problem suggesting our troops go to their beloved homeland to die for something they are not willing to do themselves.

You DO know that Mohammad was illiterate, right? He could neither read nor write........

Gerd R. Puin's initial study of ancient Qur'an manuscripts found in Yemen led him to conclude that the Qur'an is a "cocktail of texts", some of which may have been existent a hundred years before Muhammad. He later stated that "these Yemeni Qur'anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled." Puin has stated that he believes the Qur'an was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.

Karl-Heinz Ohlig comes to the conclusion that the person of Muhammed was not central to early Islam at all, and that at this very early stage Islam was in fact an Arabic Christian sect (likely Ebionite, Arian and/or Nestorian, based on the recorded Ebionite faith of Khadija, Muhammad's first wife, and the Arianism and/or Nestorianism of her cousin, the monk Bahira, recorded by John of Damascus in the early 8th century) which had objections to the concept of the trinity, and that the later hadith and biographies are in large part legends, instrumental in severing Islam from its Christian roots and building a full-blown new religion.

John Wansbrough believes that the Qu’ran is a redaction in part of other sacred scriptures, in particular the Judaeo-Christian scriptures. Prof. Herbert Berg writes that "Despite John Wansbrough's very cautious and careful inclusion of qualifications such as "conjectural," and "tentative and emphatically provisional", his work is condemned by some. Some of negative reaction is undoubtedly due to its radicalness...Wansbrough's work has been embraced wholeheartedly by a significant number of Islamic scholars and has been employed in a piecemeal fashion by many more. Many praise his insights and methods, if not all of his conclusions."

In short.....according to these scholars, Islam is a fraud, nothing more, nothing less......

doc

Think Bridget/Lanie/Jade will bother to come back and respond? I'm betting she'll avoid this post like the plague so she can claim ignorance and moral superiority over the rest of us knuckle-draggers at some future point.

Lanie's explanation why she'd never be conservative is pretty much how I feel about never being a liberal. "Middle ground" though is a slippery slope, because imo liberals will compromise, meaning "agree with me or forget it".

Good men sleep peaceably in their beds at night because
rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyesAnd clever in their own sight! Isaiah 5:20-21 NASB

Think Bridget/Lanie/Jade will bother to come back and respond? I'm betting she'll avoid this post like the plague so she can claim ignorance and moral superiority over the rest of us knuckle-draggers at some future point.

She'll get back to this one in about three months when everyone has forgotten about it.