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Frycek:[/b] I have been studying up on Beethoven in preparation for Hershey's play...not to find any possible descrepancies, but to learn more about the man, more than I thought I had already known. When we talk about Chopin's life and how unhappy and sad it was at times, it can't even begin to compare to poor Beethoven's. My God, that man sufferred constantly, from all kinds of ailments, both emotional and physical (loss of hearing...being the ultimate joke of God's). And still he persisted through it all...as he stated in his Heiligenstadt Testament, for his art. That was what kept him going. What a man!

This can't be the document to which Hershey is referring because it is too well-known. Perhaps that letter he wrote to his "Immortal Beloved"?, but again, too well-known. In another letter to Franz Wegler, Beethoven stated: "Oh, it would be so lovely to live a thousand lives." Wish he did. Beethoven, unlike Mozart and Chopin, was not a letter writer, so Hershey has piqued our curiosity. Which as it should be.

BTW, Andre Previn (I love this guy) put out a great series on video of 5 famous composers, Beethoven being one of them. What is so special about these is that Mr. Previn tells of each composer's life and then, with full orchestra, plays a portion of one of his most famous works. Then he stops, and continues on with the life story...to give a fuller and deeper picture and uses the music to give insight into not only their lives but their personalities. If you can rent the series from your local library please do so.

I am currently reading: "Beethoven's Hair." Quite interesting....a quest to determine what Beethoven actually died of. Right now, and from what I've learn from a few experts, it would appear that Beethoven (much like his father) loved his wine, which contained a lot of lead. His liver, upon autospy, appeared bumpy and lumpy, which, supposedly, is a dead giveaway of lead poisoning. He also injested a lot of lead from other sources...like some of the medicines his doctors prescribed. Anyhow...these strands of hair are going through every kind of test we can now perform, DNA and etc.

But...Frycek, what is this movie you speak of? Copying Beethoven? Is it available from Amazon or Netflix?

Hershey:[/b] You have asked for questions...well we have a great one for you. It was posted on another thread by Chris, and I know he will not mind if I bring it up here. It concerns how to play the Fantaisie-Impromptu, which some other people have indicated is not worth the time and trouble learning how to play!! I can only believe this is nonsense, and Chris still wants to pursue this goal.

Here it is:[/b]

Hey guys. I've been practicing this intermittently over the last few months (while trying to get over a case of tendinitis that's lasting ridiculously long--9 months and counting). I can play the right hand alone pretty well, and the left hand alone pretty well, but when I try to put them together, the left hand part gets noticeably uneven.

I know the "trick" about both hands hitting the notes at the same time on every downbeat, but all that does is guarantee that my hands are synchronized on every downbeat--the notes in between are still a mess. The problem is that the downbeat always comes a split second earlier than my left hand is ready, so my left hand "hurries up" and hits the next note a little sooner, and the result is that it almost sounds like I'm playing the left hand part in a "swung" rhythm. The only way I know to make sure my hands stay synchronized the whole time through is if I try to consciously count the four-against-three rhythm, and that's where I always get stuck.

This is all made even harder by the fact that I'm usually too busy focusing on what my right hand is doing to even notice when my left hand starts straying from the exact rhythm. It wasn't till I started recording myself that I noticed this. (It jumped out at me right away.)

I think most of the amateur performances of this on Youtube have slight inaccuracies in the left hand (since some of the left hand arpeggios require you to jump around a little bit, which is hard to do at tempo), but they still sound basically all right. When you're playing it with a consistent swing rhythm, like Chopin meets boogie woogie, the result is (predictably) awful!

******************So when you get the time...

In the meantime, stay away from any food that moves.

Regards to all,Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Boy...by the time I get my "novelette" posted, other people have jumped in. Wonderful!

Thank you Nancy and Bassio for your interesting notes.

To all: We will soon be approaching our 2,000th post. And, as I am reminded by Hershey, Pianoagain, LisztAddict, Nancy, Bassio, Sotto Voce, Gerg, MaryRose, Frycek and Ragnhild and others...there is NO WAY that this thread is going to break up and go somewhere else. It is evident that people ARE reading it (as huge as it is) and posting where and when they feel they have something to add of interest or of background and experience.

So, we're home here, to stay!

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Nancy -- luck had nothing to do with it! Actually, getting a doctorate was the culmination of, "Well, what the heck do I do next?" All of my degrees are in cello performance. That and 5 bucks will get you a supergrande latte at Starbucks. Seriously, I did have to write a thesis (mine was on Bach), give some recitals (solo, chamber, lecture), and pass comprehensive exams (written and oral). I sometimes think I learned more from the experience of being around a lot of musicians over the many years I was involved in the formal study of music than from classes per se.

I thought I had more or less given up the cello, but somehow, over the past few years, I've gotten back into it and am now doing quite a bit of playing.

The reason I might run into problems putting the whole index on the first page is this: The more links I add to that page, the larger the page gets, the more space it takes up, and I run the risk (most definitely) of pushing all the other pages back.

Therefore the links I have in that first group, and in the other groups could no longer be valid because of the space I've taken up on the first page posting the additional links. (and there will be a lot!) Does that make sense? So if I posted a direct link to topic that was on page 3...of the thread (using the URL at the top of that page) when that first page gets so large that it now takes up the first 2 pages of the thread, that link will now be on page 4...the URL does not (to my knowledge) automatically adjust.

This is the reason I have been working backward...

This is the problem as I foresee it; however, I don't know just how much space I have on that first page of the thread. It's direct link number is 00000, then the next post on the thread is 00001 and so on. So just how much room do I have on 00000 before it pushes everything backward....or is this a valid concern. Does space have anything to do with it at all??

I just e-mailed C7 to ask if it the # on the post always remains the same (it indicates the order of the posts) and space has nothing to do with it. I hope so...then I can REALLY create a great index on page one of the thread.

(Gosh, I've really confused myself!)

I like your other suggestions also. I have been frustrated myself, many times, looking for something.

PianoAgain: How I love the cello...that and the French Horn (which I played in high school, but not very well). You make it sound oh so easy. WRONG! Congratulations on your super achievement.

Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Funny - but it always works out this way - it's a line in the Gershwin show that really is true...

"Isn't it amazing, that no matter what, all we ever remember is the criticism..."

We have been talking about one little known review from a not-known-at-all reviewer... for my own need here for a minute to remind myself - let's not forget the several hundred positive to rave reviews of both Gershwin and Chopin from major outlets and major reviewers... there will always always be the negative, especially with the life I have chosen - in fact with the lives that any of us have chosen - but we must all remember - that what one person says - what one reviewer says - it's usually more about the reviewer than the one being reviewed... and so, there it is...

Now, on the matter of the Fantaisie Impromptu...

This business with the 4 against 3 really is difficult, and I understand the problem exactly - mainly because I went through it exactly myself.... here's the way to work...

Of course you can play each hand separately, but the thing to remember is that that is only the basic beginning - then you must somehow accept that you are actually not going to be playing hands separately, but that you will be playing hands together - and you must be conscious as you practice hands separately of the bigger picture. Otherwise, you will always have problems fitting everything together...

The first and most important issue here - is looseness of the hands, and the FREEDOM to play EASILY. You must put your hands together slowly - WITHOUT forcing the 3 against 4. You must play very slowly, and lightly. Almost - 'armonioso...' The left hand must simply rock back and forth EASILY, the right hand doing the work - the moment you start forcing trying to fit one into the other, you will never be able to play quickly - because you will have to do too much, and too much will get in the way... this is one of those situations that may just be easier to "show" you than to describe... but I'll give it a shot...

When you rock your left hand back and forth - don't force the triplets (I work in triplets as opposed to sextuplets... guarantees that hands will stay together properly...) simply delicately play the first note of each beat, and understand where it lands in terms of the right hand... don't practice it without hearing the right hand (not playing the right hand, but just hearing it...) Then do the same with the right hand. Easily, not effort - and focus on each beat of the bar - not for us to hear it, but just so that you know where it lands. But don't "point it" out to us... just play loosely and freely, and rhythmically, beautifully and musically.

After several days of this kind of work, you SLOWLY put the hands together without bumps and grinds... there should be no effort in your sound, no pushing no forcing, just easy floating, again, the moment you try to force things to "fit" is when you get in the way of yourself...

What will happen after several more days of this light, easy and very slow practice - I should say FLUID practice, is that suddenly, the left hand will develop an independance of the right and vice-versa - because with the slow practice and LISTENING, you will begin to hear two separate voices, and then the hands will do it evenly according to your ears...

You'll see - you just need to give this time, and very slow and very delicate fluid practice - every day - slowly, delicate, fluid... no tension in the arms - and make sure that you train your ears to HEAR both parts - it WILL work... and then the most important point - the left hand is ACCOMPANYING the right hand - so if you try and play each with a similar color and sonority, you will most definitely get in the way of yourself and never make music. The left hand creates a cloud of sound under the spinning right hand - out of the first C# in the left - create an armonioso sound - understand the hamornies, and the harmonic changes of each triplet - or sextuplet as the case may be - this will give each beat or half bar, a "color" onto which the right hand is layered or shall I say, accompanied...

Thank you so much, Hersh, for the detailed advice for Chris on the Impromptu. I'll get it over to him right now. I know he will be most grateful.

I am a bit selfish (now this sounds silly, I know) to let the whole of Piano World know that you exist...here on the Adult Beginners Forum. For I know you will be literally deluged with all kinds of questions. I know you would love to answer them, but, like the saying goes" "Be careful for what you wish for."

Also there are some concert pianists on the Pianist Corner (I believe) who would just love to argue (discuss) certain subjects with you. They know their stuff and aren't afraid of expressing their opinions. Which is just fine, but we're a bit intiminated by them.

Yes, of course, it is that one word or two of negativity that remains with us. I wonder why? I don't think it applies to everyone, just those of us who are sensitive, but without that sensitivity we couldn't love and appreciate what we do. So it's a trade-off.

I'm also reading up on Gershwin. Of the three, he had the best life, that's for sure. But even so, he, like the others, was totally obsessed. And when he finally decided he wanted a more normal life (wife and kids), it was too late. Another great composer dying much too young.

Cheers,Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

I love pianists and the piano, but I don't like arguing...I'm always happy to offer help in developing careers for those who have great craft, but haven't figured out a way to advance their work (it is a business, after all...) but you know - I like our little private chatroom - it's nice for all of us. Believe me - if they want us, they'll find us...

We like our havens! Now don't we...

And to Frycek - the notion of taking blood pressure meds before watching Copying Beethoven - very good way to express without being overt...

Yes, copying Beethoven - a project that sadly, didn't quite work out for everyone - most of all, B himself...

Hershey, I love your description of how to learn the 4 against 3 rhythms in each hand! I struggle with this a lot and your description makes so much intuitive sense. I have to try your method. I think I've been "forcing" it and just as you said, just get in my own way and it collapses. Thank you!!(and yes, let's keep you all to ourselves over here! Re: that review-- as you said, even the greats got some terrible reviews (you mentioned Chopin; Liszt got some real doozies as well). The reviewer obviously has some odd opinions not shared by your audiences. It takes a very special talent and wonderful material to keep an audience enthralled for two hours. Bravo to you!!

Bassio, those articles are terrific. Great reading! I would have loved to have taken lessons from Chopin AND Liszt!

Sophia1: Now...aren't you glad you dropped in to our thread! It is so helpful to be able to look at our method of playing/practicing or even approaching a piece with a new perspective, and especially one provided by an expert.

Bassio: I am wearing out my printer. Great stuff you are posting. All so interesting that I am starting a booklet, of sorts. Thank you very much for all the research and referencing. It is much appreciated.

Now I have some (relatively) good news for you, for me and for the rest of us, who have utterred some

And... your idea about a separate section that links to outside sources is a great one. I'll fit that one in also. (I'll be happy to go into the hospital after doing all this...for a rest. )

Now...for my fee....

Regards to all,

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Originally posted by Piano again: Maryrose, I played Chopin's cello/piano sonata about 25 years ago or so with a really good pianist. I messed around with the Polonaise Brillante but never performed it. [/b]

How interesting, Piano Again. And was the notation of the Sonata sympathetic to a cello player? Had Franchomme [top cellist of the day who advised Chopin on the cello parts] done a good job? Did it present any particular difficulties that you didn't encounter in cello works by other composers?

Sorry to butt into such an intriguing session between PianoAgain and MaryRose.

But I just wanted to announce that I received a PM from C7 this morning telling me to hold off, for a while, on creating a huge index on page 1. He is doing some research on the subject and wants to make sure he's given me the right advice. Keep your fingers crossed.

O.K. back to you PianoAgain...

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

BTW, C7 gave me the "go ahead," so I will be revising the first page (a Huge Index) along with Bassio's idea of linking to outside references. It might take me a couple of days, but once I get going, it should go fast.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Originally posted by Piano again: Maryrose, I played Chopin's cello/piano sonata about 25 years ago or so with a really good pianist. I messed around with the Polonaise Brillante but never performed it. [/b]

How interesting, Piano Again. And was the notation of the Sonata sympathetic to a cello player? Had Franchomme [top cellist of the day who advised Chopin on the cello parts] done a good job? Did it present any particular difficulties that you didn't encounter in cello works by other composers?

Curious of Milton Keynes [/b]

IIRC, only the last movement is a bit awkward, but it's really written better for the cello than the Brahms or Beethoven sonatas.

The polonaise is more Franchomme than Chopin, probably. (I believe we had this discussion before many months ago, and Hershey chimed in with better knowledge than I have.)

Originally posted by Piano again:The polonaise is more Franchomme than Chopin, probably. (I believe we had this discussion before many months ago, and Hershey chimed in with better knowledge than I have.)

If you are referring to his Opus 3, that was long before Chopin had met Franchomme (or indeed had gone to Paris).

Thanks for your insights, Piano Again, which are very valuable to someone like me who has never played a cello.

Chopin met another young cellist in Vienna (I believe) whom he compared to Paganinni. He died very young though, possibly while Chopin was still in Vienna. I believe he was associated with the earlier cello piece.

Chopin and the Cello - I do like that stuff very much, the trio has lovely things in it as well - and let's of course not forget the Robert Le Diable variations which actually gives Franchomme (which I learned recently is not pronounced Fransh-homme, but Frank-homme...who knew?) joint credit. This, by the way, has always said a huge amount to me about Chopin for all the obvious reasons...