thanks Capn for getting the gist of my posts when no else apparently did.

Byslyv, I trust you, in particular, can spot smugness and rudeness. I've read your posts for two years now.

I didnt "misstate the law." I stated my personal views. Fisticuffs has as much to do with "Free speech" as flag burning...i.e. nothing. Both are moronic and emotional displays meant to arouse and anger others. Both are deserving of exactly the same amount of protection under the US Constitution, i.e. none. This, I think, was clear in my posts to all except those engaged in speed-reading.

My main point is to make a case for the unique and crucial importance the Constitution has to our entire democracy, and if one accepts its importance, to resist the urge to stuff things under it penumbra unless abso-freakin-lutely necessary

Hypothetical (an old one):
Suppose I am grossly offended by the anesthetizing stupeficiation of the American masses by the bourgeois capitalistic Hollywood movie industry. I really want to make a political statement about how our laws and tax codes are structured to advance the spread of this vile delusionary bile into our society. Is it US Constitutionally protected free speech for me to make my protest in a crowded movie theatre by shouting "fire" to get everyone's attention? What if instead of shouting fire, I just set on fire a small model of the Hollywood sign?

The problem when you untether the dissemination and the discussion of ideas from the concept of "speech" is that you invite all kinds of acts in the name of freedom of expression...some of which may be benign, some of which may be unhealthy.

â€œBurn your flag. Its not illegal. I'll try to ignore you, but if my gut and heart wins out, I'll punch you in the jaw and will be man enough to accept the consequencxes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta doâ€¦.â€

I kinda dug the way Penn and Teller handled burning a flag. They made a little speech about rights going away, than after a lil switcheroo with some flash paper the flag was "burned". Afterwards they showed the crowd how the switch was done and that the flag was unharmed. They were able to make their point AND adhere to the law.

Just out of curiosity, Teo, if you get sued for "Popping someone in the jaw", would you represent yourself in court? And what effect do you think your statements on ePlaya would have on your defense? In your lawyerly opinion?

B.

"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.Do things that have never been done."--Russell Kirsch

Burning the UN flag would be like burning the flag of a high school debate society. Despite the conservative fears of black helicopters and such, the UN doesn't have a whole lot of power- if they did, our asses wouldn't be in Iraq now. They just talk a lot, and occasionally do something. I love the idea, it just doesn't quite work. Something about humans being involved....

My personal feelings on this?
Backstory: Back at the beginning of the first Gulf War I was protesting in Phoenix with a small group, and the flag I carried had a large peace sign spray painted on the bars. I was just standing there with the other protesters holding their signs (next to me was a WW2 vet) when a pro-war demonstrator comes up to me and starts screaming in my face that he fought in Vietnam for "that flag" and that if I didn't take it down he'd beat the shit out of me. The WW2 vet stepped between me & him and told him that he had fought in WW2 to defend a country and a way of life, not to protect some damn fabric- he fought to protect the ideas it stood for. The Vietnam vet looked about to punch him, realized the mans age, called us both "bitches" and stalked away.

People who yell about flag burning remind me of the Vietnam vet- they've forgotten that the flag stands for ideas, and that alone it's a meaningless piece of fabric. If you trounce the ideals to protect the fabric, what meaning is there?

Burn the flag for all I care. It doesn't weaken our freedom (the Oval Office is doing that quite well), it doesn't change how we live. It's a symbol of America, but it sure as hell isn't the reason I love this country.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

blyslv wrote:thanks for the clarification. Maybe if you broke a jaw, it could get bumped up.

Naw... just go from simple assault to assault. You need grievous bodily harm to get into felony range in most cases. Civilly it could go badly for the jaw breaker though.

"Advancing a message in a positive manner" There's nothing wrong with that. The real challenge with flag burning as an art project is making it interesting and compelling. I think that would be difficult. I also think it would be MORE difficult to make popping someone in the jaw an interesting and compelling art project.

If it is a message you care about, it is much easier to win support to your cause if you present a positive image pertaining to your cause. A negative image or display will only serve to rally the people that are already on your side. To make a difference you need numbers and a perceived negative connotation associated with your message will not draw those numbers in.

Nathan's earlier suggestion of a temple like aspect to burning the flag is spot on on how to make an interesting and compelling art project that is directly centered on the burning of the flag. Other than the die hard core of "USAUSAUSA" types, most everyone will be able to appreciate and understand the message and the meaning behind what is being done.

I would never burn an American flag as a symbolic gesture of protest just as I would never pop a bloke in the jaw for doing so. I have too much personal and family history associated with what the flag represents to me and mine to do either. I would, however, write many, many things on an American flag that document what I feel are major problems with the government that has corrupted and hijacked what that flag means to me and place it into a fire alongside of others and hope that those messages being carried away in the flames and smoke bring about positives changes because our collective voices sure aren't doing shit about them now.

In any event Teo misstated the law with respect to flag burning, and he did so in a way that was rude and belittling.

"it's not so much that i want to burn a flag.....i dont.... i love this country, and i love our constitution and the now shredded bill of rights...BUT I WANT THE FREEDOM TO DO SO IF I FEEL LIKE IT.... supposedly, it's my right..."

I agree 100% with this and this is why I think the theme needs to be re-written a little bit. The theme writers should scrap the part about "This theme isn't about flag burning, it's not about red states & blue states and the things that divide us...". Telling us what America is not about could not be a more inviting reason to do art about all of the things they are telling us not to do, like flag burning.

They should rewrite it like this: "Burning Man has a long tradition of fire art and radical self expression. The American Dream will be celebrated consistent with that history. But Burning Man also has a long tradition of approaching art with great respect for diversity. We examine America together knowing that we all have a different perspective of it and we create our art with respect for other people's history of this nation."

It should also incorporate some kind of statement that says that the theme is about America, but Burning Man is a global community and we celebrate all of our international Burners who come to be a part of this event.

Those two changes would do a lot to address concerns that I have with the theme.

turtlex wrote:Question from a Newbie ( ie - never been to a Burn but have always wanted to go ) - - Just how many local or state police are usually on the Playa? I suppose this could get a tad bit hairy if you find some really gung-ho law folks who are spoiling for a fight / arrest.

welll last time I checked I beleive the count was four. Four? uh yup! Four that was it! just four..

If you read my random idea for a performance piece surrounding selling a crap load of lil flags off playa and then using the proceededs to grant tickets to the impoverished of whom could correctly answer American History Questions and or recite Key speeches from great American heros free entry and then to burn these lil fake flags at the end of the burn as they have lil mans on'em..after the man falls..you could see how this supports American Liberty-sez sumthin bout Hippies and The Dream theme,as well as becomes an issue for some keepers of the peace to enforce something that thousands of Burners are participating in..on TV!
Besides
It would be the rightfull disposal of a mock representation of the flag.

as for the right to burn any American Flag..
The rules of displaying the American flag are very specific as well as not well taught.
To display the American Flag you
must take it in when it rains
bring her in at night unless lit from a spot light so that dark ness never falls upon her
To display her in the correct possition stars and stripes in the upper left hand corner -to reverse the flag is a sign of disregaurde and lack of patriotism
however
to hang her reversed -upside down is a sign of America in trouble or is a distress of being subverted by the/a government and is a call to arms for every American in the Home land...hmmmmm
and then lastly
The American Flag should never touch the ground.The remedy for the Symbol of America fallen and touching the earth not lifted aloft by its spirit of Liberty and freedom
is to BURN IT!

No mater what the local laws are ..THE FEDERAL LAW is guided by THE CONSTITUTION of America and The Bill OF RIGHTS
The First Amendment of the Constitution is FREEDOM OF SPEECH>
flag burning is covered by this first Amendment and is up held by the Supreme Court ( repeatedly I might add from years of trying to make provisions to the contrary)
it goes something like"all forms of speech and its expression -no mater how unpopular -shall be protected under law by the government and shall remain uncensored or by any other as it is a liberty designed in nature to be up held by the ideas penned by our forfathers in designing this great nation.The right to free speech may never be inpinged upon because it implies that one mans speech is more rightful than anothers and we are all created equal under law.To undermine this basic right even to protect the flag would be destroying some of the very powerful and beautiful things it very stands for.It is not the flag it self that is liberty but it is the libertys that it represents that make the flag a symbol of freedom.

The supreme court is the highest court in the land.No state or local law supersedes its desisions.
If one was to get in trouble,you would claim NOT GUILTY in a court and quote the Supreme Court Statute concerning the desision made in regaurdes to the burning of the American flag.Hopefully with a lawyer and the media present..
It would end there or there would suddenly be a joint civil lawsuit against the state of Nevada no doubt for repressing your personal libertys...

I doubt the law at bm,is going to do shit about any of it..but LORD have mercy on you after the local media gets a hold of your name and just watch the feathers fly and the arm chair patriots ooze out to smite your commie pinko ass!

SFNathan wrote:Violence is totally inappropriate at Burning Man. You have no business arguing that in some circumstances itâ€™s okay

But inciting violence...that's okay, right...I mean as long as it furthers your agenda?

You dont actually give a shit that gratuitously burning the American flag at Burning Man--because you're an "artist"-- most likely will lead to violence, do you? I mean, its far far more important that you as an "artist" make your self-absorbed "statement" than thousands of Burners be spared the angst and turmoil your "statement" is likely to provoke. Hey, its all about YOU! The Community (even in a democracy) must take a back seat.

1. flag burning should be legal or illegal depending on the will of the democracy expressed in the form of laws at the local level. The framers of the Constitution used words much more precisely than 7 of 12 Supreme Court justices when they protected "speech" as opposed to "attitude" or "actions."

2.Democracy is about the community and the individual. Because we are a democracy, the community should rule except in areas where the individual is significantly affected, e.g. abortion, voting, slavery, etc. ..but burning some cloth in order to piss people off? In my opinion, doesn't arise to the level of concern worthy of the Constitution.

2. I detest violence and have punched only one person in my life, and only after he attacked my girlfriend. That was in 1991.

3. If the violent act of burning a symbol near and dear to the hearts of millions is your protected feree speech, then, if I chose to do it, (which sweethearts is highly highly remote) I'll exercise my free speech in like kind.

4. If Im caught exercising my form of protest will I represent myself in Court? Yes, because I'll plead guilty and accept my fine...I will NOT, as many of you would do, try to hide behind an attenuated interpretation of the US Constitution.

Just curious, Nathan, how old are you? I know, its not relevant, just curious.

Eric wrote:Burn the flag for all I care. It doesn't weaken our freedom (the Oval Office is doing that quite well), it doesn't change how we live. It's a symbol of America, but it sure as hell isn't the reason I love this country.

1. flag burning should be legal or illegal depending on the will of the democracy expressed in the form of laws at the local level. The framers of the Constitution used words much more precisely than 7 of 12 Supreme Court justices when they protected "speech" as opposed to "attitude" or "actions." "

2.Democracy is about the community and the individual. Because we are a democracy, the community should rule except in areas where the individual is significantly affected, e.g. abortion, voting, slavery, etc. ..but burning some cloth in order to piss people off? In my opinion, doesn't arise to the level of concern worthy of the Constitution.

2. I detest violence and have punched only one person in my life, and only after he attacked my girlfriend. That was in 1991.

3. If the violent act of burning a symbol near and dear to the hearts of millions is your protected feree speech, then, if I chose to do it, (which sweethearts is highly highly remote) I'll exercise my free speech in like kind.

4. If Im caught exercising my form of protest will I represent myself in Court? Yes, because I'll plead guilty and accept my fine...I will NOT, as many of you would do, try to hide behind an attenuated interpretation of the US Constitution.

1. Huh? Flag-burning, for nbetter or worse is protected speech. what is this talk of should? Plus I always thought there were nine justices. Did I miss something?

2. Can you point me to the textual basis for your assertions in this statement? and how would you define community in this instance? It oculd include participants (a rather small set of the greater number of "attendees"). It could include all past participants/attendees/ticketholders. Commuinity is such an amorphous term I have no idea what most people mean when they use it.

3. Here it sound like you are threatening to hit someone again if they burn a flag. You seem to equate hitting people with free speech, notwithstanding your admirable record of refrainig from violence since 1991. Is that what you mean, that you'll hit anyone you see burning a flag?

4. As for #4, I think it was confucious who said that an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

blyslv wrote:1. Huh? Flag-burning, for nbetter or worse is protected speech. what is this talk of should? Plus I always thought there were nine justices. Did I miss something?

Talk of should = my personal opinion, which I am entitled too, just as you are entitled to yours. Because the Supreme Court has issued a ruling no one should be allowed to have an opinion to the contrary? Plessy v. Ferguson, anyone? Yes, 9 justices make for a unanimous opinion...most opinions are not unanimous.

blyslv wrote:2. Can you point me to the textual basis for your assertions in this statement?

uhhh, U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, state and local laws passed by a body of representatives elected by the people? You mean those kinda texts? Or were you looking for philosophical texts like the writings of John Locke, David Hume, Plato?

blyslv wrote:3. Here it sound like you are threatening to hit someone again if they burn a flag. You seem to equate hitting people with free speech, notwithstanding your admirable record of refrainig from violence since 1991. Is that what you mean, that you'll hit anyone you see burning a flag?

Hope you get your money back from that match-book speed reading course you took. If you weren't real jacked up right now, you could go back and actually read the posts. My original statement about jaw popping was a hypothetical involving a WWII veteran, which I am, obviously not. I extended the hypothetical to posit that equating flag burning with free speech could lead to the result that fiticuffs could also be, in context, free speech. I was clear in my position that punching was not protected speech. I was also clear that I personally do not resort to violence (except in one isolated case), but violence is a risk flag burners must assume. "IF" [that's a conditional] I ever hit anyone for flag burning, I would not be a fool for representing myself, because my goal would not be to 'beat the rap." I beleive people should be responsible for their own actions. If the urge to hit someone for flag burning on the playa became great enough, which is highly highly unlikely for ME, then I would step and take the consequences. One doesn't need Johnny Cochran unless you want to beat the rap.

blyslv wrote:4. As for #4, I think it was confucious who said that an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

No Confucious said "Man who walk through airport door sideways is going to Bangcock."

Eric wrote:Burn the flag for all I care. It doesn't weaken our freedom (the Oval Office is doing that quite well), it doesn't change how we live. It's a symbol of America, but it sure as hell isn't the reason I love this country.

Really, the most cogent sentence typed thus far in the debate.

I count three sentences.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

What would burners do--how would you react-- if a bunch of people showed up and started waving around swastikas and screeching white supremacy?

Flag burning is the post-adolescent temper tantrum of spoiled suburbanite idiots who can't articulate an argument in a more constructive manner. It's been done since before 1863 when they were dragging negroes around New York City by the testicles to protest Lincoln's draft. Hasn't solved a fucking thing yet, but I've seen combat-hardened ex Prisoners of War CRY as a flag was raised during a national anthem.

Obviously it means something to them, and, believe me--having been raised by one--ex-POWs and concentration camp victims understand more about the meaning of Old Glory than you do. Go tell one to "get over it" and "chillax" and if you're lucky you'll learn something from him.

I have a document in my possession is a photo of the entrance to KZ Mauthausen, and my grandfather drew arrows and caption saying "Here is where there was a wall of civilian bodies" They had been exterminated so quickly there wasn't time to cremate them quickly enough, and so he described pieces of skulls, hip bones, spines, etc.

Not far from there is where he watched the SS machine gun a bunch of naked civilians who had been made to dig their own graves in the snow and then stand in them. HIS--all of their--most striking memory of the US flag is quite likely seeing it come through the gate when the United States Army liberated the concentration camp and gave them their freedom and returned for them whatever remained of their lives.

He didn't want to boast, or be heroic, or make a political statement about freedom; he didn't want to talk about it, but he needed somebody just to know, and to remember before at long last he died from a chronic disease he contracted there. Given that he raised me from birth, I can say that the Nazis tortured and ultimately killed my father.

So burn the flag. I don't care so much now that he's gone because, really, who the fuck are you besides some spoiled, overprivelaged jackass spewing contempt for something that represents your ability to offend people who literally risked their lives protecting that right for you?

It wasn't the goddamn peace activists set that liberated all those concentration camps. It was guys who continue to wake up screaming at night in sheer terror because for 60 years now whenever they close their eyes they're still there, young men scared shitless, and it is they who still shiver and cry sometimes when they see the flag raised or draped over some old soldier's coffin.

YOU have a problem with the American Dream? "Chillax."

-c

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

ZaphodBurner wrote:Flag burning is the post-adolescent temper tantrum of spoiled suburbanite idiots who can't articulate an argument in a more constructive manner.

Another excellent statement/sentiment/sentence. Crypto, are you counting?

So, its verbotten to show up on playa with corporate logos, but a-okay to show up with and burn the logo of the United States of America?

Depsite all my posts on this topic, I firmly beleive Burning Man should be about ART and community building and it is at its best when politics and political agendas are kept far hence. This thread is "textual" evidence for this position.

Give me "Psyche" over "American Dream" every single time!

To all I have offended, please accept my apologies. I really did compromise one of my principles concerning civility in ePlaya discourse.

How 'bout we all go over to 2007 Theme and Performances and post a nice l'il note in the thread "Positive VIdes About Great Works of Art and Acts." Its my way of saying 7 Burning Man Hail Mary's.

Is a flag the image or the material the image is on?
Can I burn a Dixie cup that has an image of the American Flag? Is that ok?
How about a Xerox copy of a US flag? Is it ok as long as the Xerox is in B&W and not color?
What about a small plasic US flag made in China that people wave in parades and then toss on the ground after the parade is over? Can I burn that?
Or is it the colors? What if I have a cloth Stars and Stripes that is Rose, Beige, and Baby Blue....can I burn that?

ZaphodBurner wrote:Flag burning is the post-adolescent temper tantrum of spoiled suburbanite idiots who can't articulate an argument in a more constructive manner.

Another excellent statement/sentiment/sentence. Crypto, are you counting?

Thank you for listening. Just that is enough for me. I should mention that I went shooting with my little brother who is a combat vet Corporal in the Marine Corps and absolutely cannot wait to go to BM next year. I told him the theme, the likelihood of flag burning... and then told him that Black Rock City is maybe the one place he'll encounter where you could walk up to somebody, say "I disagree with what you're doing and here's why" and expect the likelihood of an articulate and intelligent discussion.

I guess I'm not thrilled with the theme either. BRC is supposed to be another world, ie, the Black Rock Space Port. I could go to every Burning Man ever, never see a flag of ANY nation there, and feel right at home. If you start sticking Default World flags and slogans all over it, it diminishes the illusion of being Wholly Other. Psyche was great, so was Vault of Heaven (I'd be happy if they -always- named the streets after planets. That was perfect.)

Thanks again, TdF and everybody else.

-c

"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

You have no case to make that INCITING violence is wrong when you advocate for REAL violence being supportable under some circumstances on the playa. I think a judge would laugh at you in court if you tried to say the two were the same thing, and laugh at your argument that inciting violence is wrong, but 'popping someone on the jaw' is personally (if not legally) supportable.

You still havenâ€™t said why you think that actual violence is appropriate under some circumstances at Burning Man. Answer meâ€“ what gives you the right to hit someone on the playa? I've had a campmate of my village assaulted before and this is a serious issue â€“ you tell me, what gives you the fucking right to do something like that? Tell me. I have nothing to talk with you about until you clear that up.