(07-11-2013 01:51 PM)natachan Wrote: This is going to be a rant, and I'm sorry. I'm just getting a little irritated.

I lurk the forums a lot, and I lurk the internet, partially because I don't have time to post much (I"m a full-time student, work full time, and am recently engaged) and it takes time to come up with a post that actually says something that is coherent. But this is something that is just grating on me.

I'm not an anti-theist, not really. I believe that too strong a faith IS toxic, but I won't push people away from a middle of the road faith. My mother is still devoutly Catholic, and sends two of my sibling to Catholic schools where they get good educations in science in math. It looks like one of my siblings who is in said school might follow as a scientist or engineer. They all laugh when I mention those fundamentalists who claim the earth is six thousand years old and have been really understanding about my atheism. As such it is not religion itself I criticize, but literal biblical creation and fundamentalist faith.

Here I've been noting some of the arguments that the fundamentalists are using. And the monumental back flips they do in order to back up their assertions. They claim THEIR scientific evidence backs up their worldview that the earth is young. That the earth is the center of the universe. That the creatures all came into being in the form they have now. And at first I simply was miffed that they refused to see the simple facts. I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they actually believed this. Now I"m more irritated.

If I want to launch a rocket, I have to assume certain things. I have to assume the gravitational constant, I have to take into account the rotation of the earth, I have to calculate fuel consumption as a function of both changing mass and changing time. If I want a rocket to reach escape velocity and explore the rest of the universe I have to understand gravitational potential energy curves, the curvature of space and of time, I have to understand the location of the planets in order to maximize velocity. Bottom line: You WOULD NOT WANT a rocket scientist who did not believe in the curve of space and time, because the rocket would not be able to escape the solar system. You would not want one who did not believe the earth was rotating, because it would not be able to achieve orbit. By the same token you would not want someone doing research on new medicines not to believe in the stable and predictable decay of atomic isotopes. You would not want a doctor who did not believe that species change over time in order to adapt to their environment (ie: bacteria who are becoming immune to antibiotics). You would not want a CEO of any major corporation to believe that the world was going to end in less than 50 years.

If you believe ANY of these things the math SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK. I'm a math person. In order for me to accept something, the math has to be there. Our model of the universe is accepted because the math works. All the fundamentalists have to say is that if their theories are right their qualitative observations about the present world can be accepted. I don't care about qualitative observations, the math DOES NOT WORK.

What irritates me is that it's the knowledge and the equations working that allows for the existence of many of the things we need in this world. Electronics? The movement of subatomic particles creating electric fields over a set time. X Rays on soft tissue? Made possible by the short half-life of certain compounds that light up on X-rays. What this says to me is "it's ok if you are immoral unbelievers, so long as we get something out of it."

This is immensely hypocritical. They RELY upon the knowledge that they reject. They cannot function without it. Indeed, they would not want our services if we did not believe as we do since we could not do what we do in order to give them their services. But they damn us for the very view that makes those services possible. And THAT is what irritates me. Either we are told to do what we do while abandoning everything that makes it possible, or we are told that we should continue but that we are going to hell for it.

So true!

Think of the word fundamentalist.

Is it fundamental to the teachings of Christ to be so hateful and ignorant? No!

To be a true Christian Fundamentalist would probably be one of the best people of Earth.

Actually the Westboro Baptist Church is probably following the bible as closely as would be possible in today's world. The bible is an evil hate filled relic from the bronze age. A manual for tribalism and totalitarian theocratic governments. There is a reason that most people who really read the bible turn into Atheists.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(07-11-2013 06:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote: There is a reason that most people who really read the bible turn into Atheists.

Do you have a some proof that most people who really read the bible turn into atheists or are you just telling a story to promote your world view?

Multiple anecdotal evidence (yes that is weak evidence) but in my experience most "true beliebers" have not read their "holy" books. It is not uncommon to see atheists with much greater knowledge than believers. There was also a Pew Poll out a few months ago that had Atheists in a tie with Mormons and Orthodox Jews as having the most biblical knowledge.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

Is it fundamental to the teachings of Christ to be so hateful and ignorant? No!

To be a true Christian Fundamentalist would probably be one of the best people of Earth.

Actually the Westboro Baptist Church is probably following the bible as closely as would be possible in today's world. The bible is an evil hate filled relic from the bronze age. A manual for tribalism and totalitarian theocratic governments. There is a reason that most people who really read the bible turn into Atheists.

I didn't mean literalism; I meant fundamentalism, where you take away all the contradictions and get to the nitty gritty idea that Jesus said on that Cross: "It is finished." Jesus conquered death with the new and everlasting covenant, acording to the Bible.

Let's not forget that a community founded on the values of Jesus and a community founded on the values of the Bible are entirely different things.

(07-11-2013 06:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote: Actually the Westboro Baptist Church is probably following the bible as closely as would be possible in today's world. The bible is an evil hate filled relic from the bronze age. A manual for tribalism and totalitarian theocratic governments. There is a reason that most people who really read the bible turn into Atheists.

I didn't mean literalism; I meant fundamentalism, where you take away all the contradictions and get to the nitty gritty idea that Jesus said on that Cross: "It is finished." Jesus conquered death with the new and everlasting covenant, acording to the Bible.

Let's not forget that a community founded on the values of Jesus and a community founded on the values of the Bible are entirely different things.

fun·da·men·tal·ism
n.
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
a. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
b. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

They are one in the same.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

But I don't worry too much, as all the important stuff like medicine and rocket science is done in a secular way regardless of the individuals theological kink, (well in my bubble anyway).
I'm starting think more and more that a revolution of secularism would do more good than harm though.
And All we have to do is expose the different scriptures for the batshit it is, no need to burn down churches.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".

(07-11-2013 07:44 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote: I didn't mean literalism; I meant fundamentalism, where you take away all the contradictions and get to the nitty gritty idea that Jesus said on that Cross: "It is finished." Jesus conquered death with the new and everlasting covenant, acording to the Bible.

Let's not forget that a community founded on the values of Jesus and a community founded on the values of the Bible are entirely different things.

fun·da·men·tal·ism
n.
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
a. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
b. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

(07-11-2013 06:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote: Do you have a some proof that most people who really read the bible turn into atheists or are you just telling a story to promote your world view?

Multiple anecdotal evidence (yes that is weak evidence) but in my experience most "true beliebers" have not read their "holy" books. It is not uncommon to see atheists with much greater knowledge than believers. There was also a Pew Poll out a few months ago that had Atheists in a tie with Mormons and Orthodox Jews as having the most biblical knowledge.

Atheist got 4.4 questions right, while the average was 4.1. Christians as a category got 4.2

Protestants, Jews, and Mormons all out scored atheists on biblical knowledge. Catholics(and there are ton of them) dragged down the score for Christians as a category. Catholics are not "into the bible" as much as Protestants or Mormons so I don't find this unexpected.

(07-11-2013 07:27 PM)Revenant77x Wrote: Multiple anecdotal evidence (yes that is weak evidence) but in my experience most "true beliebers" have not read their "holy" books. It is not uncommon to see atheists with much greater knowledge than believers. There was also a Pew Poll out a few months ago that had Atheists in a tie with Mormons and Orthodox Jews as having the most biblical knowledge.

Atheist got 4.4 questions right, while the average was 4.1. Christians as a category got 4.2

Protestants, Jews, and Mormons all out scored atheists on biblical knowledge. Catholics(and there are ton of them) dragged down the score for Christians as a category. Catholics are not "into the bible" as much as Protestants or Mormons so I don't find this unexpected.

However, on the total religious knowledge survey, no group scored higher than atheists/agnostics.