I really don't understand how anyone in their right mind would want to continue down the same path we have been going down for the past 8 years of this asshole in the white house.

A lot of us don't feel that McCain = a continuation of Bush policies. Before McCain was ever considered anywhere close to being a nominee, he was painted as a maverick who scored better with independents than his own party and was known for his moderate stances. Even when he was fighting with Huckabee for the nomination, he was painted as a guy who would have an extremely difficult time appealing to the more conservative base of his own party.

Then he clinches the nomination, and all of a sudden he is portrayed as a Bush lackey who will constitute a third term of Bush.

Sorry, but if you believe that, then you are freely buying into Democratic spin. In reality, it doesn't make much sense.

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Something happened and he became a pet of Bush and the Republicans.

That "something" was him clinching the nomination and the Democratic war machine going on the offensive to paint him as a Bush clone.

I think your timeline might be off. If you made this 2000 rather than 2008 then I would agree with you. McCain was totally the Not Bush Republican (in the way was presented) until he lost to Bush in the primaries. Then something happened and his presence changed. He felt like he didn't want to become the Not Bush Republican Whipping Boy and became the Bush Thrull instead.

I was going to post something similar to this. Before 2000 I would have voted for McCain in a heartbeat, and is was probably the only republican I could stand. But since he lost the primary it has felt like he believed the only way to win the primary is to appeal to the same people that voted for Bush.

I'm far from an expert on politics, but I have still had the impression of McCain as a "Bush Clone" years before he won the primary a couple of months ago.

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Tune in to hear me spout nonsense about Fantasy Football every Thursday evening at 6:08.

McCain's certainly reversed himself a number of times to appeal to the republican base - perhaps not a surprise in politics, but people are starting to take notice and the maverick sheen is about gone. The LA Times just had a good piece on the McCain/YouTube "problem".

That still doesn't fully explain the discrepancy. If McCain has been a Bush clone for the last 8 years, one wouldn't think the more right-wing faction of his party (which tended to be the most ardent Bush supporters) would be so pissed they vowed to vote for Clinton over him should he win the nomination, and why they turned out in droves for Huckabee.

At any rate, I think the base problem with the Republican ticket is not McCain - it's the Republican party itself. Reagan-era conservatism has been replaced with hard right social intolerance, the complete abandonment of fiscal conservatism, and general asshattery.

It's the reason why - even though I'll most likely pull the handle for McCain this November - I won't be crying any tears if Obama wins. I'm as sick of Bush-era Republicanism as anyone else. Our only disagreement lies in whether McCain is an example of it or not.

That YouTube article is pretty laughable. As if any Republican candidate (or Democratic one, for that matter) has been elected due to the "youth vote." Every election cycle we have rock stars and MTV out there rockin' the vote and getting those youngsters excited! And every election cycle, they don't show up. Nobody cares about the youth vote. Obama will probably get them more excited than anybody in a long time due to his own comparative youthfulness, but at the end of the day they are virtually insignificant.

The key for McCain at this point is to try to rekindle some of his maverick status, and quickly, before the Obama camp defines McCain as a clone of Bush. While the Democratic side has been duking it out, he's been largely free to shore up the Republican base...now that he has a defined opponent, I would be shocked if he doesn't start making more centric moves and statements.

For Obama, he needs to start honing in on how he intends to put his ideas into action, lest he gets pinned down as an empty suit...which is no doubt how the McCain camp will paint him. On the plus side, his battle with Hillary has kept them both in the media spotlight, with soundbite after soundbite....and his eloquence and positive attitude has created a larger than life persona. Can he keep the legend alive when the heavy hitting begins? Battling someone outside own party will be far different than the primary fights.

I know many here will disagree with both points, or some will find them all too obvious...but it's not about 'us', as people who actually keep up with positions, policies, and the finer points of the political process up to this point. Now becomes the time when the general public actually starts to pay attention to what is being said and done by both these men.

As if any Republican candidate (or Democratic one, for that matter) has been elected due to the "youth vote." Every election cycle we have rock stars and MTV out there rockin' the vote and getting those youngsters excited! And every election cycle, they don't show up. Nobody cares about the youth vote. Obama will probably get them more excited than anybody in a long time due to his own comparative youthfulness, but at the end of the day they are virtually insignificant.

That's been true in the past, but there are numerous signs that Obama's changed that.

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"The increase in participation in the primaries has been driven by core groups favoring Hillary, led by women, Latinos and older voters...Overall, more than 22 million Democratic primary voters were over the age of 45 this year, as compared to less than 10 million who voted in the 2004 Democratic primaries."

Poblano takes apart this statement, showing that in fact, voters over 45 have decreased as a share of the electorate by 10 points compared to 2004, and that voters over 65 have decreased by over 20 percent. In a state-by-state analysis of twenty-three contests, he found that the over-45 and over-65 votes decreased in 21 states.

Compare this to the 18-29 year old vote, which increased in all twenty-three states, and increased as a share of the overall electorate by more than 50 percent. Clearly, there's been no comparable "senior surge."

The key for McCain at this point is to try to rekindle some of his maverick status, and quickly, before the Obama camp defines McCain as a clone of Bush. While the Democratic side has been duking it out, he's been largely free to shore up the Republican base...now that he has a defined opponent, I would be shocked if he doesn't start making more centric moves and statements.

For Obama, he needs to start honing in on how he intends to put his ideas into action, lest he gets pinned down as an empty suit...which is no doubt how the McCain camp will paint him. On the plus side, his battle with Hillary has kept them both in the media spotlight, with soundbite after soundbite....and his eloquence and positive attitude has created a larger than life persona. Can he keep the legend alive when the heavy hitting begins? Battling someone outside own party will be far different than the primary fights.

I know many here will disagree with both points, or some will find them all too obvious...but it's not about 'us', as people who actually keep up with positions, policies, and the finer points of the political process up to this point. Now becomes the time when the general public actually starts to pay attention to what is being said and done by both these men.

McCain will have to do what Hillary didn't do and that is deliver very real blows to Obama. Show how experience is key. Show how speeches and promises aren't as meaningful as they sound. I think the very specific key to this election will be energy policy. If McCain sticks with the "unpopular" and specific views that we need open up ANWAR while trying develop real energy changing policy, he will win. If he allows Obama pussyfoot around vaguely about energy policy while specifically subsidizing the farm industry to increase the production of corn ethanol like it's a good and as of now "temporary" thing then he will lose. In November, when we are worried about winter heating costs, are paying $4.50 a gallon for gas, and almost four bucks for a gallon of milk, energy policy is all we will care about. If the war in Iraq looks like it will secure a better short term energy policy, then guess who people vote for.

Based on the speeches given last night I would venture to guess that McCain is in for a tough fight. McCain's speech was just ludicrously awful. Even Fox News couldn't come up with anything positive to say about it. Having the proper look and presence is pretty important in a Presidential Race. Right now, McCain lacks both and it's going to be interesting to see if he can even address this issue in any meaningful way.

The Obama smears have not yet begun though and I think it's going to be an incredibly ugly fight. The things being said about Obama up to this point were mere appetizers to what is coming I am sure. It's scary to think of how bad the "swiftboating" will get when the target is a young, black, male running for President for the first time. John Kerry got off easy compared to what's coming for Obama.

That he can just name call like that makes anything else he said extremely easy, and extremely valid to ignore, so at least he has done that much for us.

I don't give a rat's ass whether you like it or not, troll-boy. Every single thing I posted was true and I can easily post the documentation on every single McLame flip-flop. I have very little respect for the guy now as he's betrayed his own ideals in order to try to get elected. It goes far beyond "pandering to the base". It shows he doesn't have the guts anymore to stick up for what he believes in.

Every single thing I posted was true and I can easily post the documentation on every single McLame flip-flop.

No doubts there, McCain is a waffle.

Quote from: Blackadar

I have very little respect for the guy now as he's betrayed his own ideals...

Same here. But that doesn't put him in a category by himself, he's just doing what most politicians do. There are very few I have any respect for in that regard.

Quote from: Blackadar

...in order to try to get elected.

That statement is basically the sum total of everything most politicians have as their prime motivation and it colors everything they do. McCain, who seemed to be at one time a bastion of personal integrity, has shown he's just run-of-the-mill.

Quote from: Blackadar

It goes far beyond "pandering to the base".

I don't agree with that. I think it is nicely contained within, "pandering to the base." Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: Blackadar

It shows he doesn't have the guts anymore to stick up for what he believes in.

Yeah, when facing the realities of modern high-level politics in the USA he chose to take the path of least resistance. Again, run-of-the-mill.

I think the election will be relatively tight, but ultimately Obama's to lose.

I used to want Hillary to prevail in the primary because I thought she would be easier to beat in the fall than Obama.

Sometime last week it occurred to me that I was wrong. We've had nearly 2 decades of skeletons from Clinton's closet. Nothing is left in there.... it's all been hashed and rehashed. Nobody is surprised by any rehashed material.

I'm quite sure the Republicans have a moving van worth of materials ready to roll out about Obama.... carefully timed so that he stays in trouble but not a shotgun approach that would appear like a hatchet job. Unless Obama is somehow opposite of every other candidate in history -- the negative attacks will have an effect. People claim they hate negative campaigning, but it usually is successful. I agree with a previous poster that the primary campaign was just a kiddie fight compared to what we are about to see.

I'm quite sure the Republicans have a moving van worth of materials ready to roll out about Obama.... carefully timed so that he stays in trouble but not a shotgun approach that would appear like a hatchet job. Unless Obama is somehow opposite of every other candidate in history -- the negative attacks will have an effect. People claim they hate negative campaigning, but it usually is successful. I agree with a previous poster that the primary campaign was just a kiddie fight compared to what we are about to see.

It may affect him, but the repubs risk further disenfranchising the populous. Also, Obama can just play on the 'you trust these guys to tell the truth about anything all of a sudden' card.

I think this Whitey nonsense is just closeted racist folk looking for ANY reason, even if it is false, to not support Obama.

HEY!!!

You want to know who I'm interested in supporting? Whoever runs in 2012. We have two senators in McCain and Obama that are looking for a promotion. Both are vacuous politicians and neither inspires me to do anything other than start hording my money for when the inevitable tax increases lops 10-20% off my paycheck. Good times.

I'm quite sure the Republicans have a moving van worth of materials ready to roll out about Obama.... carefully timed so that he stays in trouble but not a shotgun approach that would appear like a hatchet job. Unless Obama is somehow opposite of every other candidate in history -- the negative attacks will have an effect. People claim they hate negative campaigning, but it usually is successful. I agree with a previous poster that the primary campaign was just a kiddie fight compared to what we are about to see.

A good theory but it misses the fact that even Rove has admitted that many of the old rules won't apply in this matchup. So go ahead and hurl the moving van's worth of made up B.S. Unlike Kerry, Obama isn't going to lie down for version 2.0 of the Republican Swiftboat campaign.

I really don't understand how anyone in their right mind would want to continue down the same path we have been going down for the past 8 years of this asshole in the white house.

A lot of us don't feel that McCain = a continuation of Bush policies. Before McCain was ever considered anywhere close to being a nominee, he was painted as a maverick who scored better with independents than his own party and was known for his moderate stances. Even when he was fighting with Huckabee for the nomination, he was painted as a guy who would have an extremely difficult time appealing to the more conservative base of his own party.

Then he clinches the nomination, and all of a sudden he is portrayed as a Bush lackey who will constitute a third term of Bush.

Sorry, but if you believe that, then you are freely buying into Democratic spin. In reality, it doesn't make much sense.

Quote

Something happened and he became a pet of Bush and the Republicans.

That "something" was him clinching the nomination and the Democratic war machine going on the offensive to paint him as a Bush clone.

That's not entirely true. McCain bent over in 2004 BIGTIME to get ready for the 2008 run - everyone knew it and most pundits thought it was the right move, seeing as Bush was winning a 2nd term. There were a few key moments in the McCain/Bush reconciliation...Also, a lot of his policies that he is proposing are in lock step with what has been going on. I think this flip-flopping is why he's going to need a lot of help to win the White House - it's clear the Republican base sees him as something different to what he is saying now. Outside of the fact he wants to regulate too much in 'morality', he was definitly a strong candidate - but his alligning himself with Bush really really weakens him and deserves all the 'flip flop' rhetoric he receives. He sold out 4 years ago.

I'm quite sure the Republicans have a moving van worth of materials ready to roll out about Obama.... carefully timed so that he stays in trouble but not a shotgun approach that would appear like a hatchet job. Unless Obama is somehow opposite of every other candidate in history -- the negative attacks will have an effect. People claim they hate negative campaigning, but it usually is successful. I agree with a previous poster that the primary campaign was just a kiddie fight compared to what we are about to see.

It may affect him, but the repubs risk further disenfranchising the populous. Also, Obama can just play on the 'you trust these guys to tell the truth about anything all of a sudden' card.

Half the populous. Remember that national polls still show polls between McCain and Obama splitting it right down the middle. You are competing for about 5% of the voters to swing it. Also remember that despite what people say, they don't seem to react to negative campagning in practice. They complain about it and then don't modify their vote because of it.

I think this Whitey nonsense is just closeted racist folk looking for ANY reason, even if it is false, to not support Obama.

HEY!!!

You want to know who I'm interested in supporting? Whoever runs in 2012. We have two senators in McCain and Obama that are looking for a promotion. Both are vacuous politicians and neither inspires me to do anything other than start hording my money for when the inevitable tax increases lops 10-20% off my paycheck. Good times.

I endorse this post. People seem to think these guys are change. They are both career politicans. One is an opportunist who wants to spend out money. The other is a leftist who wants to spend our money.

I'm quite sure the Republicans have a moving van worth of materials ready to roll out about Obama.... carefully timed so that he stays in trouble but not a shotgun approach that would appear like a hatchet job. Unless Obama is somehow opposite of every other candidate in history -- the negative attacks will have an effect. People claim they hate negative campaigning, but it usually is successful. I agree with a previous poster that the primary campaign was just a kiddie fight compared to what we are about to see.

A good theory but it misses the fact that even Rove has admitted that many of the old rules won't apply in this matchup. So go ahead and hurl the moving van's worth of made up B.S. Unlike Kerry, Obama isn't going to lie down for version 2.0 of the Republican Swiftboat campaign.

You don't have to make up BS on this guy. He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.

You don't have to make up BS on this guy. He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.

Any why can't the old rules apply, because he's black?

It'll be interesting to see what the neocons can throw at Obama. I figure any substantial dirt would be uncovered by the Clinton political machine. They're not known for playing nice, so if there was a major skelley in the closet, they would have found it.

Who said anything about race? Or is that all you see when you look at him?

I figure any substantial dirt would be uncovered by the Clinton political machine. They're not known for playing nice, so if there was a major skelley in the closet, they would have found it.

They just may have, but I don't think Clinton wanted to get into a hardcore tit-for-tat skeleton hunt, she would have sunk herself. Obama could have her baggage out, spilling all over the floor, while still playing nice with a big smile.

Plus, it would be absurd for her to attack his voting record during the primaries.

"Look Democratic Voters! He's *gasp* Liberal!".

It's still going to come down to the independents, and how they view these two men in November.

Who said anything about race? Or is that all you see when you look at him?

That's a ridiculously cheap shot.

Race is a part of this campaign whether you like it or not. It will be used by both sides in varying ways to achieve their goals.

You obviously don't know what a cheap shot is - if I wanted to make it a cheap shot, it wouldn't be in the form of a question. It'd have posted "I guess that's all you see when you look at him" - a statement, not a question. Or I'd phrase the question so that there was no way out - like the old "when did you stop beating your wife?" question. So make sure you understand the difference next time. I don't get why the race card was brought up, so I asked the question. Or is it the question itself that makes you uncomfortable?

Race has no business being part of the campaign. The question is who has the better ideas to lead this country. I find that those who bring up the race issue do so because it's somehow important to them (good or bad). That's why the whole "sexism" angle brought up by Hillary irritated me so - not only was it bullshit, it has no business in the rational discussion.

Race has no business being part of the campaign. The question is who has the better ideas to lead this country. I find that those who bring up the race issue do so because it's somehow important to them (good or bad). That's why the whole "sexism" angle brought up by Hillary irritated me so - not only was it baloney, it has no business in the rational discussion.

What planet are you living on. Of course race is an issue. Of course hilary being a woman was an issue. Maybe not to the level headed, but it is an issue. Period. It's politics. IF someone smoked a joint 30 years ago it's an issue.

Maybe not to the level headed, but it is an issue. Period. It's politics. IF someone smoked a joint 30 years ago it's an issue.

Well, if we're going to sink to those depths, let's make age an issue and consult some actuarial tables. At 72, McCain's got a 15% chance of dying over a first term, and a 33% chance over two terms. Fair game?

I know the republican operatives and their nutjob proxies on the internet will attempt to frighten people about Obama's race - anonymity gives people the freedom to reveal their true natures. I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

Race has no business being part of the campaign. The question is who has the better ideas to lead this country. I find that those who bring up the race issue do so because it's somehow important to them (good or bad). That's why the whole "sexism" angle brought up by Hillary irritated me so - not only was it baloney, it has no business in the rational discussion.

What planet are you living on. Of course race is an issue. Of course hilary being a woman was an issue. Maybe not to the level headed, but it is an issue. Period. It's politics. IF someone smoked a joint 30 years ago it's an issue.

Seriously. You are too optimistic....or delusional.

Note I didn't say it wouldn't be...but it shouldn't have any place in the campaign.

There's a difference between being delusional and idealistic (and realistic).

Delusional = race isn't an issue.Idealistic = race shouldn't be an issue.Realistic = race shouldn't be an issue, but will be.

I know the republican operatives and their nutjob proxies on the internet will attempt to frighten people about Obama's race - anonymity gives people the freedom to reveal their true natures. I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

Yes, and black people all voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow. I hope we can shame them into shutting up as well.

And this...

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 03:40:00 PM

I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

...is just about the most offensive view I've read on this forum. Why would you EVER want to shame people you disagree with into shutting up? Why are you liberals so afraid of free speech?

I know the republican operatives and their nutjob proxies on the internet will attempt to frighten people about Obama's race - anonymity gives people the freedom to reveal their true natures. I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

Yes, and black people all voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow. I hope we can shame them into shutting up as well.

That "something" was him clinching the nomination and the Democratic war machine going on the offensive to paint him as a Bush clone.

Don't need the war machine - just listening to his speeches confirmed that for me. I live in Arizona - he hasn't spoken for me since I've moved here. Both he and Napolitano have their heads screwed on backwards.

You're going to be in quite a quandary if Obama picks Janet as his VP.

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That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

I know the republican operatives and their nutjob proxies on the internet will attempt to frighten people about Obama's race - anonymity gives people the freedom to reveal their true natures. I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

Yes, and black people all voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow. I hope we can shame them into shutting up as well.

And this...

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 03:40:00 PM

I just hope we can shame them into shutting up.

...is just about the most offensive view I've read on this forum. Why would you EVER want to shame people you disagree with into shutting up? Why are you liberals so afraid of free speech?

I don't think it's the disagreement on valid points that he's talking about; I suspect it has to do with the unreasoned responses that the IDT (see KD's post above) that has people spewing out shit they would never, EVER voice in an elevator packed with strangers.

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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson

I don't think it's the disagreement on valid points that he's talking about; I suspect it has to do with the unreasoned responses that the IDT (see KD's post above) that has people spewing out shit they would never, EVER voice in an elevator packed with strangers.

Shouldn't matter if the point is valid or not, unreasoned or not, anonymous or not. Shaming people into not talking, aka Political Correctness, is puppies.

The problem with my premise is not that I want people to be shamed - it's that I'm optimistic that the people who say stupid things are capable of feeling shame. Statements like black people vote for Obama "because he looks like them" deserve to be mocked and excoriated.

Yes, and black people all voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow. I hope we can shame them into shutting up as well.

I'm curious, cheeba: if all the black people are voting for Barack Obama just because he looks like them, what reason do you think all his white supporters have? Do you believe they should also be shamed into shutting up?

Statements like black people vote for Obama "because he looks like them" deserve to be mocked and excoriated.

Is the statement untrue? Of many black Americans no doubt it is false. But it is just pure naivete to think that there aren't at least many black Americans out there who will vote for Obama primarily or even solely because he is a black American as well. Just like many women voted for Hillary because she allegedly has a vagina.

Statements like black people vote for Obama "because he looks like them" deserve to be mocked and excoriated.

Is the statement untrue? Of many black Americans no doubt it is false. But it is just pure naivete to think that there aren't at least many black Americans out there who will vote for Obama primarily or even solely because he is a black American as well. Just like many women voted for Hillary because she allegedly has a vagina.

She doesn't. GWB declared it an "enemy combatant" and sent it to Guantanamo.