Ben wrote:Hi Oleksandr,As a matter of interest, what is your opinion based on?

Basically, description of "bhanga" in S.N. Goenka's lectures at the 10-day retreat reminds me quite close how "jhana" is described by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Henepola Gunaratana. I have also considered Mahasi Sayadaw's texts, suttas and personal experience.

Hi OleksandrWould you be so kind to elaborate; to compare and contrast?kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Since it is possible be that these two states share some qualities, but in Goenka's Vipassana method one is applying oneself to see the impermanent nature of such states, while in Jhana practice one is cultivating its stability.

upekkha wrote:I find this whole 'bhanga: jhana or not jhana' discussion to be faulty, since it is too general.It's not like you are analyzing someone's description of a certain meditation experience and then commenting on what you think that was, you are talking in broad terms.'Bhanga' can mean different things to different people. 'Jhana' can mean different things to different people (Sutta Jhana vs. Visudhimagga Jhana).

If you take the 'Vipassana Jhana' approach (Mahasi Sayadaw), then the experience of Bhanga is within the 2nd Vipassana Jhana. But from my own experience, what Goenka calls 'Bhanga' can be experienced in different ways. You could have a 'Bhanga-like' experience in the First Nyana (Mind & Body) where you feel the whole body as vibrations, but you can also have a 'Bhanga' experience (which is probably what Goenka means) at the 4th nyana (Arising and passing away), which feels much more intense than Nyana 1. It could be felt as the whole body exploding into vibrations, lack of orientation of body and so on.

It is simply a matter of one's own personal experience, and talking so broadly is really point-less, I think

Oleksandr wrote:Particularly, is it possible to find dhamma talks of the 10-day retreat?

Yes, if you've been on a retreat you should have a password. See the "old students" link here: http://www.dhamma.org/

I've only been on one Goenka retreat, back in 2007, but the description (and what I experienced) of bhanga seems to be the same "arising and passing away" talked about in the Visuddhimagga and by Mahasi Sayadaw and others: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising I.e. a feeling of the body "dissolving" into vibrations.

I'm not sure which type of Jhana you are referring to. Obviously, as upekkha says, arising and passing away occurs as part of the "vipassana jhanas" described by U Pandita, which are an alternative way of rendering the progress of insight. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html

The first vipassanā jhāna operates up to the point where a yogi attains the insight into the rapid arising and passing away of phenomena. Experiencing this insight and going beyond it, a yogi grows up, as it were.

Just to say that bhanga nana (or the 'knowledge of arising and passing away') can arise only after there is insight into nama-rupa, cause-effect, and anicca, dukkha and anatta according to schemes of 16 insight knowledges. Otherwise you may have just been observing a bit of impermanence even though there is 'arising and passing away in your experience, it does not mean it is the real deal.

Also bhanga nana should scare you silly- it is not meant to be a pleasant experience. It arises with the flock of scary nana like bhaya (fear) nana, aadinava (drawbacks of the world) nana and nibbana (revulsion).

I might also add (ahem..fijinut ) that insight into anatta does not mean there is attainment....yet.

Bhanga nana is indeed scary nana. I remember a conversation I had with one of the forest Ajahns and he told me with delight the long Pali compound word for the particular scary nana I had experienced a short time before...For many people the actual experience of the truth of Anicca say at heart level, not just at head level can be fairly overwhelming.Not everyone experiences blissful states.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

I might also add (ahem..fijinut ) that insight into anatta does not mean there is attainment....yet.

Thanks RYB, that is why I always appreciate this forum - never a shortage of well practiced Dhamma friends.

Re: Jhana and 'Goenka' bhanga being the same; In my humble opinion and limited practice,maybe different. Because by virtue of 'beginners luck' or kamma, I was fortunate to experience both respectively on the 3rd and 4th day of the retreat, perhaps I can describe the experience itself to clarify.

On the 3rd day, approaching jhana, there was still the 'doer' and 'knower' duality of mind.The breath got blissful. Slowly, concept of 'my body'.... sensation of breath touching upper.. disappeared. Thoughts still could form. A small dot of light appeared in the minds eye which grew bigger. Meditation starts feeling 'nice'/blissful starting now. A bright disc appeared in the vision in the mind and the mind slowly 'fell' into or got 'enveloped' into this disc of yellow light. Here, the duality of mind stopped, there was just the 'knower' and 'knowing'. Sounds couldn't be heard, thoughts or even intentions couldn't form. The mind was firm like a rock. Just bliss and contentment.

On the 4th day, the scanning method was introduced, so we systematicaly pass through the experience of sensations through the body as experienced by the mind, instructions were not to verbalize or note. From the crown of the head to the tips of the toes.Being a beginner, and not having enough samadhi, or understanding the technique fully, but yet stubborn (lots of ego back then ), I sat for 2-3 hours straight.Needless to say, there was a bit of pain or 'lots of solid sensations'.There was no breath meditation at this point, instructions were to mindfully and equanimous as one passed one's attention through each part of the body.

However, at one point, the mind calmed and the scanning took less effort, until at one point, the the solid feelings in the body disappeared to be replaced by feelings of subtle sensations. It's hard to find any similes for the experience, but just like the mind 'saw' the disc of golden light before jhana,it was a gradual arising of an experience of actually 'seeing' the body dissolve into amber electrical currents and wavelets, and the body felt like boiling cauldron soup of particles and vibrations (without the heat).

And just like how the duality of mind of 'doer' and 'knower' dropped in jhana going into autopilot, the mind experienced a similar quality of just 'knowing', or 'observing', in fact, it was just a sense of being 'beyond one's control'.

So here it ends is the experience of a beginner on his first Goenka retreat in 2008 for public scrutiny. Hope this helps. So whilst one can argue whether bhanga has basis in the commentary or not, or whether this Vipassana 'technique' was taught by the Buddha or not, or whether I was hallucinating or not. I will stand aside and welcome comments.

The real benefits is that 2 years on, this 'Goenka technique' had transformed an angry selfish young restauranteur who binged on alcohol and ego into to a meek, meditating, teetotalling vegetarian student.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Your description of the jhana is spot on. The only thing I would like to know is how long you spent in that absorbed state. There can be a gap between getting absorbed into the light and getting into the jhana proper, but that is just technicalities. If you spent a fair amount of time (not just seconds) I would say that you are in the first jhana. I would say confidently that you have the ability to develop all four jhanas with the right effort. It is well worth your while doing it too- it will make your ride on this path so much easier and smoother. If it were me I would develop samatha and vipassana seperately as you seem strong in both, setting aside time in of the day for both.

I am a firm believer in not praising 'attainments' I'm not sure about because the damage that causes is immense. So do please forgive me if I came across harsh. I understand you must be excited about your experience at this retreat.

My friends who have had a lot of goenka experience (several retreats) talked of bhanga as the disappearance of sensations- that was what my comment was based on. So I might be mistaken on the matter, and by the sound of the comments it looks like I am! But it might point towards a general confusion on the matter and it being seen as some kind of special attainment in those circles. None of my business really. Alternatively I feel Goenka is beyond rebuke for bringing the dhamma to thousands of people who would not have heard the dhamma, much less seen the inside of a retreat centre.

But I do believe that anyone who can get into a jhana should head strait to a Mahasi retreat and stay there until they reach stream entry (6 weeks should do finely!) I would recommend my own teacher but their standards have slipped after he passed away! So I am merciless when it comes to tweaking method until the last drop of advantage can be gained.

Well done re: your transformation! You have achieved it through your own hard work. It is also important to protect what you have gained as much as developing newer better qualities of the mind.

I had already had it in mind to attend a retreat in the other Vipassana tradition but at the moment, because of personal circumstance, won't be able to find the time to take an extended retreat for at least another year.

In the meantime, I am just observing the touch of breath and feelings whilst going about daily life, combined with sila.it is a good technique, there is a deepening quality of mind in being mindful of the present moment. In daily life sometimes the discursive mind 'stops', sometimes there is random burst of piti. By staying with the level of breath and vedana, the mind is very quick to pick up unskilful thoughts, let alone allow it to manifest to unskilful speech/actions. Re more consistent practice, this is where I have to be forthcoming with my lack of effort in practice - there is this hidden fear that exists in the mind that more intensive practice was dangerous for my lay-life! The rationalizations went like this... "you have already got equanimity and peace from continual mindfulness, no need to sit" or " be careful, you might just 'lose it' and run away to the forest"How crafty are the defilements of the mind? So I'm very to lucky to discuss this topic now as it was actually halting the formal practice of 'sitting'.

Re: bhanga and special status in different circles, Goenka in his discourses mention that it is a signpost that the mind is calm and sharp enough observe nama-rupa at a very subtle level, nothing worth clinging to. Usually, these people ignore instructions by the teacher and start developing craving for the 'special experience', when the aim of the technique is to reduce craving. So the dangers of ti-lakhanna are all pervasive in any tradition

I am not too qualified to comment, but in my limited experience, clinging to views meditation experience and meditation technique as 'something special' hinders progress, and hugging signposts is not very skilful behaviour especially when the path is long and arduous! And I suffered from this attachment to views quite badly, one day, reading an online comment I got very self righteous thinking "how on earth can they criticise this tradition, its done wonderful things for thousands of people", observing the tight feeling in the chest and shortness of breath, the thought arose in the mind "this is painful suffering isn't it, these views you have", I answered "you bet", the voice came back "why not let go?" Its hard to find comparisons but it was like a mountain off my back when I felt my mind unwrap itself from this view that was plaguing me since the retreat.

Anyways, back to topic, so in the spirit of the original post, my experience of this 'technique' reduces greed, hatred and delusion when practiced in the context of sila, samadhi and panna under the guidance of a good teacher.Used in isolation, without sincere consulation of a teacher as means to get 'special experiences', for 'nice sensations', is very dangerous.

As an side: because I have had the immense privilige of talking with a senior teacher in this tradition, in normal life, not in a retreat condition, where he confided that this tradition does have stream enterers, but they are not publicised by Goenka. How interesting....

Equanimity can be a result of samatha, or equanimity can be a result of seeing anicca. dukkha and anatta.

The former is helpful on the short term, the latter helpful from a perspective of the buddhist path. Mindfulness without awareness of one of the three characteristics is likely to lead to samatha.

Unless a person reaches the non-returner stage any prolonged equanimity is likely to be due to samatha, if there is no continuous perception of the three characteristics (not just impermanent objects).

Vipassana (the generic type) is not mindfulnessIt is not awareness of an impermanent object.It is awareness of the quality of impermanence (in whatever object that arises).

What vipassana should do is to change the way we view the world (ie- an effect of changed panna), thereby reducing our attachments. If it is a method that we practice which generates equanimity automatically then it is likely to be a samatha effect and not based on panna.

I would also say that it seeing impermanence say, in a chair, is not going to allow us to let go of the entire world. Letting go of the entire world (Samsara) is possible if we incorporate the entire field of perception in our vipassana. Letting go of the entire world (temporarily) is essential for a the first glimpse of nibbana in the magga-citta phala citta moment. While I have come across a person who did reach stream entry using the Goenka method they are very rare, even among gifted students because of what I believe to be a limitation in the method of focusing just on the body and not the entire field of perception. Those 'gifted students' (quick faculties, intelligent, diligent) have done brilliantly within months of changing the method, after staying pretty much in the same place for years. Now I understand that you have been following the Goenka method and it is rather mischievous for me to say what I just did. But I would like you to consider this and allow it as one possibility. I hope you will give the other vipassana method a chance if only out of curiosity and see where it takes you. I do believe it is worthwhile exploring other methods as well. Even during Buddha's time each of his disciples were particularly good at one thing -his or her speciality. This is still the same. So to broaden out our palette and develop those faculties which haven't developed yet I think it is well worthwhile exploring other teachers when there is a sense of stagnation in the current method.

You make many good points and you make them well fijinut. I can only applaud and echo the need you describe for an experienced and wise teacher when engaged in these practices.I am concerned that occasionally on these pages there are descriptions or claims to knowledge of Jhanic states which have my alarm bells ringing. They are sometimes too glib. I am sometimes unconvinced, without doubting the sincerity of the writers.I think that the likelihood of someone who is simply sitting with a book or a CD, in their bedroom ,reaching authentic Jhana states is remote.

rowyourboat wrote:While I have come across a person who did reach stream entry using the Goenka method they are very rare, even among gifted students

Exactly, how rare? I mean, the occurance of a sotapanna is incredibly rare, and if someone should become a sotapanna from using the 'goenka technique' is it any rarer than sotapannas coming from (say) Mahasi technique? And how would you actually know how many sotapannas are generated from the goenka technique or any other technique - its highly unlikely that they would actually tell you unless they knew you very well or you had a teacher-student relationship with them.

because of what I believe to be a limitation in the method of focusing just on the body and not the entire field of perception.

There is no limitation. Certainly during the introductory ten-day course a student learns and practices vedananupassana (observation of sensation) and very little emphasis is given the dhammanupassana and cittanupassana. However, as one is exposed to the teachings in the long courses (open only to long-standing practitioners), one's field of examination expands and includes all four satipatthanas. kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

rowyourboat wrote:I hope you will give the other vipassana method a chance if only out of curiosity and see where it takes you. I do believe it is worthwhile exploring other methods as well. Even during Buddha's time each of his disciples were particularly good at one thing -his or her speciality. This is still the same. So to broaden out our palette and develop those faculties which haven't developed yet I think it is well worthwhile exploring other teachers when there is a sense of stagnation in the current method.with metta

Thank you for your words of advice, I will definitely take them to heart. The defilements of the mind are many and anything that reduces greed,hatred and delusion through skillful means is definitely worth investigating.

Well when I say rare, I think it makes sense to explain how I came to that conclusion. I started teaching meditation at a local temple almost by accident and ended up 'inheriting' a crop of meditators who were mostly Goenka adherants. Others were following Ajhan Brahm's method another was following Ven Dhammajiva (sri lankan meditation teacher). However they were open enough to learn my teacher's method to see if it was useful to them. Now among this group were some very intelligent high earning people in society who were quick to grasp things.

When I started teach two people who had been meditating for years (goneka+dhammajiva), very quickly grasped it and progressed through the jhanas and then vipassana knowledges within a matter of months (2-3). As far as people go, the lady who was following the Goenka method was amazing. I could give her one instruction and she would come back having achieved it -like clockwork. She was really ardent, dilligent, mindful and her personality was such that she didnt grasp much, had good sila and was easy to instruct. Many months later (12-18) two more Goenka adherants progressed to the place where she reached. Now my main argument that the Goenka method is limiting is this earlier woman could not have been a better student ie- the student factors were near 100%; her rate limiting factor must have been the method (Certainly there were no impediments otherwise in her life). I cannot perceive her doing anything but well if given a meditation instruction.

Now the reason I say that the Goenka method can give rise to stream entrants is that I saw another woman who had understood nama-rupa, anatta etc etc using the Goenka body scan when I interviewed her. She was not in this meditation class but we met infrequently and she requested instructions from me. So I know that the Goenka method can deliver and certainly there are people in this forum whom I suspect to be stream entrants after following the Goenka method.

I also dont think I was doing anything amazingly special with these people. I also know from my teachers that the percentage of people who reach stream entry in one retreat is much higher than what saw when I started. So looking at this sample of Goenka adherants for whom I had the good fortune to guide, I feel there is something to be said for methods using jhana, yonisomanasikara as well the full field of perception (the six sense bases) in vipassana. My teacher's (Ven Amathagavesi's) vipassana is a derivation of the Mahasi methods which were imlpanted in the sri lanka in the 1950's, which similarly uses the full field of perception. I have no special affinity for Mahasi Sayadaw apart from admiration of the vipassana method. It is sad he did not teach jhana. So I do believe there is much to be gained in using these methods, perhaps to complement the body scan. Please dont take my posts as an attack on the Goenka-U bha Kin method because that is not my intention. I only intend to share what I saw with my own eyes so that everyone can have some use from it.

§ 16. {Iti 1.16; Iti 9} This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention[yonisomanasikara -wise contemplation] as doing so much for a monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-016

110-115

Better than a hundred yearslived without virtue, uncentered, is one daylived by a virtuous personabsorbed in jhana.And better than a hundred yearslived undiscerning, uncentered, is one daylived by a discerning personabsorbed in jhana.

Thank you for your clarification.No, I don't consider you are attacking U Ba Khin/Goenka method. However, I did initially think you were mistaken and now I can see that you are not.We all have different perspectives and your perspective is one that I greatly value.metta

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725