6th of August 2014

Carl White Interview

Introduction:

If you’ve ever wondered what women think and say about you when you aren’t around, this is your podcast. Today Tucker interviews Carl White, a Tony award-winning Broadway producer. Carl is the “gay best friend” to legions of attractive, single women, and he has spent his life listening to them talk about men, while treating him as “one of the girls.” He pulls this curtain back and reveals dozens of actionable insights, including how to make women feel safe, how to get them to want to open up sexually to you, and where to go to meet great women. Carl will also tell you some of the most common mistakes you are making with women – and how to fix them.

Podcast:

You can click here (right click, then click save as) to download the episode directly.

Key takeaways:

One of the biggest complaints women have is that guys aren’t straight with them – they’re not communicating enough about their goals and intentions with women. Just be clear and upfront about what you want out of the relationship.

Women can be just as dirty and sexual as men. They just want to do it in a place where they can feel safe and like they won’t be judged because of it. And they don’t want to be made to feel like a piece of meat.

When it comes to dick size, don’t worry too much. Bigger is not better. You know how guys range in sizes? It’s the same for women, and it’s entirely possible for a man to be too big for her to enjoy it. Women want something that fits and feels right – physically and metaphorically.

One way to make her feel safe and able to up is knowing that you’re not going to go and tell all your friends about it. Like we’ve said before, there is no upside to going around and bragging about a women you’ve just had sex with. Whenever a girl asks you about previous sexual encounters, she’s testing you to see if you’ll talk about other girls, because if you will, then you’ll talk about her too.

Be chivalrous, but don’t put her on a pedestal. It’s a fine line – just try it once and see how she responds, and gauge the feedback.

Don’t be so obvious when you’re checking out other women. When you’re with her, just be with her.

On the other hand, women are creeped out and turned off by obsessive guys. Being overprotective, over-controlling, constantly doing things like buying her flowers for no reason – these are all unattractive.

Men can be very selfish when it comes to sex. You have to make sure she’s getting what she wants as well. And it’s easy to know what she wants – just ask her. Try something out, like spanking her, or pulling her hair, and ask her if she likes it.

If you’re terrible at reading women, then ask some of the other women in your life to help you out. If you explain the situation to your sister, cousin, mum or whatever, and explain your behavior and the woman’s behavior, then they’ll usually be able to tell you what’s going on.

Alternatively, you can ask the gay friend. If you’re a good guy, and frame it in a way that you like this girl, and don’t want to mess it up, then you can ask for that guy’s advice, and he’ll tell you what you need to know to make the relationship better.

Gay bars are actually really good places to go to meet straight women, who go to those clubs to dance and enjoy themselves and have a good time. It’s particularly good if you have a gay friend you can go along with – as long as you’re cool with and not threatened by the gay guys.

Other arts or culture-related activities are a great way to meet women. In particular, improv class and acting class can be great – as long as you do what’s asked of you and put in the work that the class requires, otherwise you just come across as an asshole.

Another good way to meet women is dog parks – and the fact that you can care for another living thing like a dog is attractive to women.

If you want to meet women at yoga class or the gym, just look at her and smile. Don’t invade her personal space. Then try and find a way to cross her path organically after the class.

If a girl touches you in any way when she doesn’t have to, that’s a sign that she’s attracted to you. Other signs she’s attracted: playing with her hair, puckering her lips, sitting up straight and poking her tits out.

One thing a lot of guys lack is manners. Having manners is not the same as being a pussy. Women appreciate manners a lot, and it’s really easy to teach yourself basic etiquette.

Quotes from this episode

“If you don’t want to have a relationship and you just want to have sex, just say it.” Tweet this

Podcast Audio Transcription:

Tucker:
Alright, so here with Carl White, multiple Tony Award-winning Broadway producer. So, Carl, a lot of people obviously don’t know who you are outside of Broadway. I’m sure a lot of people on this podcast are going to be like, “Why the hell is this weird Broadway gay guy talking with Tucker about sex and dating for young guys?” So, I’m going to give a little bit of a background. So, you and I were having brunch one time, and you were talking about all sorts of crowd-funding and plays and all this other cool stuff. And somehow, I forget, I mentioned something about the book I was doing with Geoff Miller, and your eyes lit up and you were like, “Oh, I’ve thought for years about writing a book called The Gay Guy’s Guide To Straight Women.” Then, you kind of went into this whole soliloquy where you talked about all your straight female friends and how terrible they have it. Like, how lost guys are and how much they complain to you, and I was like, “That’s fucking genius.” Then, as soon as I started the podcast, I was like, I’ve got to have Carl be one of the first guests to come on and tell straight guys all the shit they’re doing wrong.

Carl:
Honestly, that they don’t communicate. A lot of times, especially during the dating process, my girlfriends…I’m always hearing from them, “Why doesn’t he call me?” It’s so cliché by now, but, “Why isn’t he calling me? I don’t understand. We had a really nice first date. We had a great second date. He’s really sexy. I really like him.” But they’re just not getting anything back. And, honestly, I think if guys were just straight up with women, you know what I mean? Just be straight up with them, whatever it is. Like, if you don’t want to have a relationship and you just want to have sex, just say it.(tweet this) Like, “You know what, I like you a lot. I don’t want to be in a relationship with now, but I’m liking what we’re doing and I like the physical contact, and I’m having a good time. Are you cool to just roll with that?” You know what I mean? Just be upfront about it all. It’s one thing if a chick is hounding you and she’s hounding you and, like, texting you and all this crap and getting crazy, fine. If they do that, then communicate. Just say, “Okay. Wait. I really like you, but you’re kind of going crazy. You’re texting me a little too much. Chill out. Let’s just take it slow and have a good time.” You know what I mean?

Tucker:
So, let’s dig into this point. I know exactly what you’re talking about. I think it’s crucial, but I think you’re totally right that most guys miss this. How many straight female friends would you say you have? Twenty? Thirty? Fifty? I mean, you’re in Broadway, so it’s a crazy number, I’m sure.

Carl:
Oh, god. Probably, it is. I mean, I’m 45 years old, so for my age…over my entire life, I would say 95% of my friends have been women. And…they hang around gay guys. So, yeah. I easily have fifty straight women as my best friends.

Tucker:
Okay, so these women will tell you. They’ll say, “Look, I am cool with fucking this guy and nothing else,” or, “I just want to date this guy,” or whatever their thing is. They don’t really care what you’re thing is, what you’re saying. You’re saying they just want the guy to be straight and to get rid of the ambiguity, right?

Carl:
That’s exactly right.

Tucker:
Right. So, a lot of them are…if a guy just wants to have a sexual relationship, they’ll do that as long as they understand from the beginning, that’s what it is, right?

Carl:
Exactly. I think so. I think…and the ones who don’t want to do that, I think they’ll respond and say, “No, you know what, I’m not cool with that.” They come to me, I think they come to gay men a lot and talk to us because, as gay men, if you can imagine, we’re just as aggressive as men anyway, right? It’s sort of in our DNA to conquer and go after and want to get laid. Gay guys are the same way, but we’re just that way with other men. Right? So, when you get two men together, the dynamic of that is really interesting. We don’t beat around the bush, two gay men. We’re just like, “Hey, want to fuck? Let’s go fuck. Great. Done.” Like, it’s done. So, women ask us a lot of questions about that type of thing and, “Whoa. You just do it so easily.” My point is, if they don’t want it, they’ll say it. They may say it ad nauseum. That’s a whole different subject. But I think they’ll be straight up about what they want. They just need to know where you’re coming from and sort of what you’re looking for, and I think, if a guy is straight up about it and goes, “Look. I don’t want to get married right now.”

Tucker:
Right. “I’m not looking to settle down. I’m just looking for—“ Here’s the question. So, a big part of my audience are younger guys and young guys, as I’m sure you know, are fucking morons and don’t really understand anything. So, I know the question that a lot of them are going to ask right now is, “Okay. Carl says to be straight. I’ll be straight with this girl.” And their next question will be, “What do I say? Like, literally, how do I tell this girl that I only want to use her as life support for a vagina and don’t care about her as a person? How do I do this in a way that isn’t offensive?” ‘Cause I get a lot of guys who are like, “I try to be honest with girls and then they get mad at me and yell at me and I come off as an asshole.” So, there’s got to be a way to do it that works.

Carl:
There is. I’m a big believer in practicing your speech. Like, whenever you’ve got to do something – and it can work across all platforms of life – business, if I’ve got, like, a heavy duty deal coming up and I’ve got to, like, negotiate that and I’m a little bit on the nervous side of it for whatever reason, I’ll write it down. I’ll go, okay, here’s what I want to say. Here’s what I want to avoid. And just sort of look at it. Prepare my speech. Same thing if I’m giving a toast at a wedding. It’s no different. It’s the same skills. I don’t know why the guys suddenly throw all these skills that you have already out the window when it suddenly comes to women. Like, it’s ridiculous. You shouldn’t.

Tucker:
So, then, if we were to talk about wedding speeches or toasts, you could tell me, “Here’s the style to do it.” So, what’s a way…For instance, if I’m seventeen or twenty-one and I tell a girl, “Hey, I just want to cum inside of you and that’s it. I don’t want to talk to you.” Most girls, even if they want only a sexual relationship, won’t like that, right? But if I say something else, like, “Hey, I’m not ready to date someone right now. I really like hanging out with you. Let’s just keep hanging out,” then the girl’s going to be okay with it. So, what are some examples you’ve heard or, like, maybe where guys have said it totally wrong and then guys have said it totally right, saying the same thing.

Carl:
That’s the thing. Like, it’s all in the way you present it, right? And I think women respond well to it when you’re calm, you’re clear, and you’re gentle. That’s really it. Just be calm and clear and gentle. That’s it. Don’t be a dickhead. Don’t, like, get your feathers ruffled and you’re sort of crowding me! Just chill, dude. Just say, “Hey. This is how I feel.” Usually, women respond even better to that sort of thing because they like a guy who seems like he’s got his shit together and who can talk and who can communicate and can say, “Here’s my feelings and here’s how I feel,” as opposed to just being an asshole about it and tripping over your tongue or being defensive or those type of things. I know it’s difficult. Guys don’t like to show our feelings and we kind of keep it all in, but there’s no reason to, really. We’re just fooling ourselves.

Tucker:
No, I totally agree. So, the number one problem that your straight female friends find is that guys are not communicating enough about what their intentions and their goals are with women, right?

Carl:
That’s absolutely correct.

Tucker:
Okay. So, what would number two be?

Carl:
Probably the misconception about sex, and how dirty women can actually be. I’m constantly surprised when I’m hanging out with all my girlfriends. Sometimes they’re dirtier than my guy friends.(tweet this)

Tucker:
Your gay guy friends, you mean?

Carl:
Yeah! Exactly! Gay guys, we’re pretty dirty. Like, we can sort of talk some shit. But, they can get pretty dirty, and I think they just approach it in a different way. Women have a lot more layers to them when it comes to sex. I think there are some that really like romance. There are some that don’t. There are some that love hardcore sex. There are some that don’t. There are some that want sex to be really gentle and this sort of loving thing and others who want it to be raw and animalistic and all that. And that’s a difficult thing, I think, for both sexes to negotiate. I do. But, I’m constantly surprised by my girlfriends’ about how dirty…you know, guys, when we’re all together, we’ll tell jokes about this or that or do a fart joke or a dick joke or whatever. But women do all that, too. All of it. All the same things. They have fart jokes, they have this kind of joke, that kind of joke, and it constantly surprises me how similar they actually are when it comes to those type of things. When it comes to sex, we all kind of turn into little kids. You know? Kind of giggle and say things underneath our breath and, like, chuck other people out. Women are doing the same thing. They just do it in a little bit more of a DL manner, I guess you could say.

Tucker:
Okay, so if women are just as dirty as guys when they get alone or get around you, then where do you think the miscommunication is coming from? If guys want to fuck a certain way and so do women, but they seem like they don’t, where’s the problem coming?

Carl:
I think there’s a social stigma. If women sort of show that side of them to anyone publicly or to men, they’re immediately branded as a whore or cheap or trashy or something like that, as opposed to just being a sexual being. With men, we’re not labeled with those things. We’re kind of labeled as, “Wow! He’s a horn dog. He’s a stud.” All those type of things. Women get sort of the bad rap on that. So, they’re not really immediately going to reveal those type of things, but I think if guys know that women can be just as dirty as them and can think the same way, especially when they really like somebody, just want to, like, fuck them, they’re thinking those things too. So, it’s a way of sort of navigating that territory with her and giving her sort of a safe space. Corny phrase, but it’s true. A safe space to be like, “No, baby. You can be that way with me. It’s okay. I’ll laugh.” You know what I mean?

Tucker:
No. This is really good. This is super good advice. Very specifically, like, tell me some things that your girlfriends have talked about. ‘Cause I know that you’ve heard them talk terrible trash about guys, but then also say amazing…

Carl:
Dick size. Dick size.

Tucker:
Dick size, how they feel safe?

Carl:
Yes. They’ve talked about dick size a lot. And there’s huge misconception. Bigger is not better(tweet this), and I was blown away when I learned this. You know what they like? They like a guy who feels right. Some women, I never fucking knew this…Some women don’t like big dicks.

Tucker:
Yeah, I know.

Carl:
I asked one friend. I was like, “Why don’t you like? Come on, what’s not to like?” She said, “You know what? I’m small up there.” And I went, “What?” She’s like, “I’m small. I’m really tiny up there. Like, if I have something that’s more than six inches, it hurts. It’s really not fun for me.” I was like, mind blown. No idea. I had no idea. She was like, “Well, yeah. We range in size, too. Sometimes, it’s a matter of that it just doesn’t feel right. So, I’m going to be with a guy who actually feels right. I don’t care if he’s got a big dick. Usually, I stay away from that.” And that’s really interesting to me, because as men, we sort of pride ourselves on how big are we and we all measure, all that crap. But, I was kind of blown away to find that out. Women don’t think that at all. They want something that’s going to fit physically, spiritually, mentally, and metaphorically.

Tucker:
Yeah, of course. Speaking of fit, let’s get back to when we were talking about the safe conversation. ‘Cause I think you made a really key point. You said that in order to really sexually unleash themselves, women need to feel safe, right? So, what are some things that a straight guy can do to make a straight woman feel safe enough to unleash her sexuality?

Carl:
Shut the fuck up. Keep your shit to yourself, because she’s going to worry that you are, that you’re telling all your friends and she’s going to think, “Ugh. All of his friends think I’m a slut. I’m a dirty whore. They know that I like to lick his ass. Now it’s going to be a big problem.” Just shut up. Don’t tell them all that. You know? There’s no need to. You can say, “Hey guys. She’s great in bed. She’s really amazing. We have a lot of fun. No, I’m not going to go into dirty details with you. I’m not.”

Tucker:
You’re exactly right. What I tell guys with girls is, so like, whenever a girl asks you about previous sexual encounters, she doesn’t really care. It’s more she’s trying to test you to see if you’re going to talk about other girls because if you’ll talk about other girls, you’ll talk about her.

Carl:
That is absolutely right. They always will equate themselves to the previous girlfriend. Even if you haven’t been with her for four or five years, she’s always going to be like, holding up to a candle. Especially if it was a long-term relationship. They’re always going to do that. So, yeah, don’t…

Tucker:
Never talk about…In fact, what I always tell guys, if you’re going to talk, just say, “She’s a great girl. We had a great time together. Whatever.” And then that’s it and you just move right on.

Carl:
Exactly. “Wasn’t for me.”

Tucker:
Same thing with guys. Exactly what you said. Don’t tell your buddies. In fact, I even tell them don’t tell your buddies that you had sex. Like, “Well, we had a great time. You know, she’s a great girl.” And if your buddies push you about it, “Oh, come on, what’d you do? Did she suck your dick?” And then you say something like, “Well, why are you so obsessed with my dick, dude?”

Carl:
That’s exactly right.

Tucker:
Right! And then of course, if it’s a straight guy, he gets super insecure. “Oh, I’m not a faggot! Whatever!” And then he stops talking about it.

Carl:
See. That is the right way to handle that.

Tucker:
So, what are some things that guys do wrong that you hear about making women feel…One of the things to do to make them feel safe is don’t talk about other girls. What are some other things they can do to either make them feel safe or stop doing that make them feel unsafe?

Carl:
To make them feel safe, listen, ask questions, show you’re interested. That’s a good one. Another thing, I think, is don’t be afraid to be chivalrous. All my girlfriends like to be treated like queens. No, they don’t want to be put on a pedestal, but they like it when they’re pleasantly surprised and their boyfriend or their husband or a guy that they really like says, “Oh, let me open that door for you.” Like, what’s wrong with it? There’s nothing wrong with it.

Tucker:
No, it’s great.

Carl:
Go ahead. Do it! They love stuff like that. That makes them feel safer. That makes them feel more like, wow, he’s actually thinking about me. He’s thinking about my needs. He’s not just sort of moving ahead by himself with his dick, you know? Going and knocking everything out of the way. That sort of stuff.

Tucker:
Here’s a good question. A lot of guys make this mistake. You identified it. You said, “Be chivalrous, but don’t put her on a pedestal.” (tweet this) Right?

Carl:
Right.

Tucker:
So, I know you talk to a ton of women about this, so where’s the line between the two things? Between being a good dude, but not being a pussy. You know?

Carl:
Yeah. That’s exactly right. That’s actually a very good point. You know, it’s one of those things, you just kind of got to feel it. You know what I mean? ‘Cause women…they’re all different. They all come in degrees of creature, as we do as men, and some women don’t want that. Some women are, like, business-head and they’re very self-supporting and they want to take charge and that’s all cool. You just kind of got to feel it, but all of my girlfriends, and a lot of them are amazing businesswomen, wildly successful, but when they get dealing with relationships, they like the chivalry. I think it’s a matter of just feeling them out. Do it once. See how she responds. You know what I mean? Gauge it.

Tucker:
Gauge feedback. That’s what I tell young guys all the time.

Carl:
As we say in show business, know your audience.

Tucker:
Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, what are some things, then, that guys do that they don’t realize they’re doing that make women feel unsafe? Or they feel like, “Oh, I don’t want to fuck this guy,” you know, or, “I was super into this guy and then he did X and I was like, ugh, I’m not going to fuck him anymore.”

Carl:
Being really stupid about when you’re checking out other women. Honestly. I have to say, I personally am not a big believer in monogamy. I think it’s a choice that we make as individuals and couples, of that’s how our relationship is going to be and that’s good. But for me, I think that men…we are generally predisposed, our DNA is programmed to have our eye out, looking. It’s who we are. It’s in our nature to want to spread our seed as much as we can. It’s just part of who we are, right? We’re a bee. We go from flower to flower to flower. And women are very, very perceptive. I always see these guys walking with their woman. They’ll be beautiful, gorgeous woman on their arm. Then, some other chick will walk by who’s maybe not even half as beautiful, and you’ll see his eye or check out his ass or check…And I always see the chick.

Tucker:
Look at him, yeah.

Carl:
She always looks. She always knows. It’s this, like, helmet she’s got on with this radar perception. And it’s like, dude. Okay, just…don’t. At least not when you’re starting to date her. Just don’t do it. Put your horse blinders on. Just be with her. You can look at chicks and porn all you want when you’re alone in your bedroom. That’s not the time for that. Be aware of that. That makes them feel unsafe. That makes them feel unsure. That makes them feel like…oh. She wants to be on your arm. If she’s with you, she wants to be with you. You know what I mean?

Tucker:
So, let’s go the other way, though. You’re totally right. If you have a wandering eye and are brazen about it, the girls going to think that you are just a player and you’re not reliable and she’s going to be a little bit wary of you and she should be. Now, we have to be super clear about this stuff, ‘cause 21-year-olds, like we said, are idiots. So, what a 21-year-old will do is take that…“Okay. Carl says don’t look at other women.” So, he’ll just stare at the woman the whole time and not look anywhere else.

Carl:
And then she’ll be like, “Why are you staring at me?”

Tucker:
“What’s wrong with this creeper?” So, let’s think about the other side of that. Women are repelled by guys who obsess over them. Right?

Carl:
They are. Yes.

Tucker:
Right. So, what does the other side look like and what should you avoid on that side?

Carl:
That’s the point. That goes back to answering your question, which I didn’t entirely, about where’s that line between them being chivalrous and courteous and being a pussy? If they think that they’re obsessed about them, all my girlfriends who’ve had boyfriends who’ve been obsessive in that way and just won’t leave them alone, they do get really turned off by that ‘cause that is being a bit of a pussy. You know what I mean? You’re kind of pussy-beaten already, and there’s no challenge there for them. So, no, again, there’s a fine line with that. It’s different with every woman and every person. You just kind of got to feel that. You know, there’s no one answer or black-and-white there.

Tucker:
Right. Well, can you think of examples that your straight female friends have said, “Ugh, this guy did this,” and it’s one of the things that maybe guys think women like, but women take it as being too obsessed or being too much of a pussy?

Carl:
Good question. Let me think on that for a minute. I can’t think of anything off-hand.

Tucker:
Like, getting flowers too much or maybe things that guys revert to that they’re told that they should do for women?

Carl:
You know what it is? It’s when they’re a little too controlling, too overprotective, and too jealous. Like, flowers for a reason are a good idea. You know what I mean? It’s your second date. It’s your third date. Fine. It’s her birthday. Fine. No problem. She moves into a new apartment. Bring her some flowers to go…

Tucker:
Only in New York would that be a flower occasion, though. Nowhere else in the country…

Carl:
Well, you know, it’s something like that. You know? Something like that. For a reason to give her flowers, give her flowers. But, if you’re doing it all the time, if you’ve overprotective, it starts making you look insecure when that sort of obsessive thing comes out, and guys can be like that. We can very much be like, “I need to be in control of this. She’s mine.” Especially when you really like her, right? Like, you’re just like, “She’s mine. Big Protection. I’m going to pee all over her. She’s mine.” Like, don’t do that.

Tucker:
“I’m going to mark her.”

Carl:
Yeah. Exactly.

Tucker:
You can only do that after you’ve been dating a girl for a while, in the shower. That’s…

Carl:
Absolutely. Right. Exactly.

Tucker:
Alright. That’s very good advice. That’s real good. So, what are some things that you hear women talk about that they wish, like, “Ugh, I wish this guy would do this.” Maybe a guy they’re seeing a little bit or something. I think you kind of brought this up earlier when you were talking about sexual aggression, that I think that a lot of women…Here’s my sort of take, and tell me what you think. A lot of women want men to be much more sexually aggressive, but in a certain way. They don’t want a guy they don’t know at a bar to be sexually aggressive. That’s fucking rape. That’s creepy. But, a guy that they’ve been on three dates with and maybe slept with once and they like, they want him to – generally speaking, obviously everyone’s different, like you said – but those women, they want you to maybe pull their hair a little bit, maybe spank them a little bit. Maybe you get in the apartment and you just push them down and, like, “Let’s have sex right here in the entryway,” or something like that, right? Obviously, a girl that you’ve already had sex with. Probably, you don’t do that on the first date if you don’t know her. But, what are things like that that you hear over and over and over again from women?

Carl:
That men, a lot of times, get very selfish when it comes to sex.

Tucker:
Oh, yes.

Carl:
And we do. That’s a big one. We’ll do our thing, and maybe we will get aggressive or whatever it is, but then when we’re sort of done and we’ve, you know, had our fill, as it were, we’re kind of done. You know what I mean? We’re not interested and guys, we are that way. Like, if you’ve got a beautiful glass of amazing red wine, right? You don’t just fucking chug it back. It’s not a beer. Like, sip it. Enjoy it. Don’t finish it in one gulp. You know what I mean? They bitch about that a lot, about how sex might be great and they may very well be interested in some kinky play or things like that, but it’s often very self-centered and it’s sort of with what he wants as opposed to thinking about what does she want in this? She may very much want you to pull her hair, but I don’t know. You’ve got to think about what does she want in this? It’s a two-way street. Sex is a dual thing. You know what I mean?

Tucker:
So, I’m a 22-year-old and I’m sitting at the table listening to this, and I’m like, alright, this is great information, but what do you mean what does she want? How do I find out, first off, what do women want and how do I find out?

Carl:
Ask! You know, if you’re getting the make on with her, right? Maybe you slap her ass. Not real hard at first, but you kind of slap her ass. See how she responds. If she laughs and kind of giggles, then ask her, “Hey, baby, did you like that?” She may say, “Mmm, sort of.” She may play a little game with you. “Yeah I liked it.” You can tell in her face. Look at her eyes. “Did you like that?” She may be like, “Uh, no.” So, then try something else if she didn’t like it. Know what I mean? But ask! Again, communicate! Ask her!

Tucker:
Right. So, let’s just play that role. So, I ask her and then, like…what other things should I do? Pull hair, spank…What are things that girls talk about that they wish, specific actions in bed, sexually?

Carl:
I think a lot of my girlfriends very much, when they’ve been seeing a guy and they’re at that point where they’re either starting to have sex or that sort of point in the relationship, they very much have liked those moments when he’s just kind of taking her and putting her against a wall and, like, you know. Kissed her and started making out with her and, like, they very much like that. They like to be talked to through it and they like it. They don’t want to just be a piece of meat. You know what I mean? They want it to be an interaction, and they like that. So, don’t be afraid to, like, yeah, throw her up against a wall or – not to hurt her.

Tucker:
Of course. Of course.

Carl:
Be gentle.

Tucker:
It’s assertiveness!

Carl:
Be assertive. Grab at her and kiss her, full face in the mouth. Don’t just start pulling her hair right off the bat…

Tucker:
Right. On the first date, just grab her hair. That’d be pretty funny, actually. Alright, so you actually brought up a great point. Women don’t want to feel like a piece of meat, right? So, hey, I’m 22, Carl. I don’t know anything. What am I doing that’s making girls feel like a piece of meat? Here’s what I’ve found. I’ve found most guys? There are a lot of guys who don’t give a shit. Whatever, like I was in my early twenties. I just wanted to fuck. Okay, fine. But a huge bulk of guys actually want to have good interactions and exchanges and they’re not trying to objectify women or make women feel like pieces of meat. But what am I doing as a 22-year-old that’s doing that? You know? Is it just that I’m getting my nut and not going down on her? Or, like, what?

Carl:
It’s that. It’s that you’re not being reciprocal. It’s also that you’re just not reading the signs. You know what I mean? Read the signs. If you got onto a motorcycle, would you just pop it into third gear? Of course you wouldn’t! You never would! You’re going to completely fuck it! Like…Crazy metaphor, but it’s the same exact thing. You got to sort of take your steps and read, and you might go, “Ah, shit. I need to put some more oil in this bike because this doesn’t sound too good on second gear.” You just kind of got to read those signs, and they don’t read signs. It constantly amazes me. The thing about women? They’re reading them all the time. They’re naturally reading body language all the time, and it’s a huge part of their sexual composition and how they read. Why do you think that all the males of species in the world are the beautiful, dazzling, colored versions? Because the females are there to read all those signs from them.

Tucker:
They’re signs of health. Yeah.

Carl:
Correct! It’s no different from men. They’re constantly assessing and reading the signs of us, and we’re not so good at reading them back.

Tucker:
You’re pretty good at reading behavior and reading signs. How do you, if you’re a young guy…Are there any ways for young guys to get better at understanding women? Of course, you can say just go do it or go figure it out, right? But, I’m talking about specific things. Let’s say I’m 22-year-old young straight guy. I don’t understand women at all. Like, I’m really bad at reading them, so Carl, what are some things I can do to get to know women? Besides being friends with you.

Carl:
Honestly, you know what? Talk to the women in your life. Sister. If you have a mom that you have a relationship with where you can have a conversation like that. I’m very close with my mom, so we could talk about anything when I was growing up. Talk to the other women in your life and just say, “Can I talk to you privately about something?” And just ask! Ask questions and say, “What do you think about this? Tell me about this.” They will tell you. They will say what they think.

Tucker:
Yeah. Most women know other women pretty well, and if you give them an accurate recount of your behavior and her behavior, you won’t see what’s going on, but the woman will see, “Oh, honey, I’ll tell you exactly what’s going on.”

Carl:
Exactly. That’s exactly right. It’s so true. And, you know, you can talk to other gay men, too. If you like a girl, and she’s got a gay best friend or a couple gay friends or something, don’t be afraid to ask them.

Carl:
We’re a magnet for them. If you need a girlfriend, hang out with gay guys. Straight girls are everywhere.

Tucker:
I know. I know. If I didn’t have a girlfriend when I was in New York and we were hanging out, I’m sure you would’ve set me up with a bunch. So, let’s pretend I’m 28. I’m friends with you through whatever, and you…Or, I’m dating a girl you know, that you’re friends with, and I’m not getting her. Let’s say I meet you at a brunch, right? What should I do to initiate a conversation, other than just be a normal human being? Like, how do I talk to you in a way that you’ll give me information, but you don’t feel like you’re betraying your friend or something like that? What should I say? How do I approach you?

Carl:
Just say, “Hey. Do you have a moment anytime to get a beer or something like that? I like you and I’d like to learn more about you and just talk to you about a couple things. Is that cool?” And gay guys, we’re pretty cool. We’ll go, “Well, yeah, absolutely!” So, then, just say, “I really like you’re friend and I’m pretty into her. I don’t want to fuck this up, so I need some advice. What can you tell me about her where you’re not betraying her trust but you’re just educating me? Educate me. Educate me, dude.”

Tucker:
Right. “What do I not know about her that I should know to make this relationship better?”

Carl:
Exactly! And gay guys will tell you.

Tucker:
Yeah. So, that works? Really well?

Carl:
They’ll even tell you on the DL. They’ll be like, “Alright. I’m not supposed to tell you this, but a, b, c, d.” You know what I mean?

Tucker:
Right. “So, here’s her triggers that she loves. She likes her hair pulled. She wants you to be more assertive. She really likes how nice you are. She just wants to see more masculinity,” or something like that. Dude, that information is, like, worth fucking gold to guys. So, you’re saying a guy could come up to you that you meet through a girl and you would totally help him out with that?

Carl:
Yeah. Absolutely. If I liked him and I’d met him already, maybe out in a social situation or something like that and I was like, “Oh, she’s dating him. Cool.” I am going to size him up and be like, “Alright, who is this dude?” And if he seems pretty cool and stuff like that and just kind of keeps it real, yeah, if he approached me, I’d absolutely talk with him. Why not? I want my friends to be happy, right? You’ve got nothing to lose.

Tucker:
Yeah. So, let me ask you a question. I get a ton of guys asking me where to meet women, and one of the things that I’ve sort of found—

Carl:
Gay bars.

Tucker:
Gay bars, actually…Let’s actually talk about that. Are gay bars a good place to meet straight women?

Carl:
Yes, absolutely. Especially now. In major urban areas of our country – Austin, New York, LA, Atlanta, Chicago, any of the big cities, places like that, more and more gay bars are not just these seedy dens of guys doing crazy things in leather. Those days are over. It’s very mixed. They’re actually…most of them are pretty cool bars. They’re nice on the inside. They’ve got some amazing bartenders who know how to mix up incredible drinks and stuff like that. It’ll be a really mixed crowd. They’ll play good music. Girls like music. They like music. They like being able to shake it and let it loose.

Tucker:
The two big gay bars in Austin, or there’s three big ones. One’s a sports bar and the other two are sort of dance clubs, and all the straight girls I know go to Oilcan Harry’s and the other one to dance.

Carl:
That’s right. That’s exactly what they do. They’ll be hanging out with all their girlfriends and all their gay friends and having a good time. It honestly is a good place to meet them. It’s very mixed nowadays. It really is.

Tucker:
Yeah. Let me ask you this. Let’s say we were at a gay bar, or let’s say you and your female friends were at a gay bar. If me and, let’s say, two or three straight guys came…If we showed up at the gay bar to meet straight girls, would you think we were sketchy? Is that a bad thing or is that cool?

Carl:
If you just sort of showed up on your own, it’d be like, hmm, what are these guys doing here? But if you brought a gay friend with you if you have one, that’s helpful. You know what I mean? It’d be like, oh, okay. Great. No problem. If you just showed up on your own, it might be a little sketchy, but I don’t know. We’re a pretty open community. We sort of get everything and all types, more and more because these things are blending more and everything’s kind of gentrifying a little bit more on all this stuff. We’re certainly a lot more open to all that and if you’re just kind of cool and you’re not threatened by it and if a guy approaches you in a gay bar and starts hitting on you, you can just be like, “I’m really sorry. I’m not gay. I’m here to make some new friends. I hope that’s cool.” You know what I mean? Most gay guys will be like, “Oh! Sorry. Okay, no problem.”

Tucker:
Yeah. So, let’s say this situation happens, because I actually did this when I was younger and it worked out well for me but I’m not sure I would recommend this to every guy. So, I want to get your feedback. I would go with maybe one or two straight friends to a gay bar and I didn’t pretend I was gay or anything, but what I would do is I would make friends with either – there was two groups I found that really worked – obviously the gay bartenders, because they know everybody. Just like any bar, that’s straight or gay. If you’re friends with the bartender, then you’re in. The other thing that I would do is I would find mixed groups, like you said, straight girls and gay guys, and I would make friends with one of the gay guys in the group and I would be pretty straight from the beginning. I’d be like, “Yo. I’m straight, but your friends are really hot. Are any of them single?” That actually worked pretty well a lot of times. Like, does that work?

Carl:
It does work. You know what’s funny, actually, is usually the women can spot before us gay guys who’s straight.

Tucker:
Really?

Carl:
Yeah. I’m always asking my girlfriends, like, “Your team or mine?” Honestly, if I don’t know myself, which is usually…the guy will be straight if I don’t know. That’s usually the deal. But, if I don’t know myself, I’ll be like, “Your team or my team?” and they’ll know if he’s straight. She’ll be like, “Oh, no, my team, baby.” I’ll be like, alright. Go for it. Again, that’s that sort of sense they have. They know that. So, if a straight guy walks into a gay bar – that sounds like the opening of a really fucking funny joke…

Tucker:
Right. But would that work with you, if a dude was kind of cool and talked to you first as a way to get in with your friends?

Carl:
Absolutely. That would totally work with me. But as long as you’re just cool on the approach.

Tucker:
Alright, yeah. Okay. Let’s say I don’t live in New York or San Francisco or a place that has, like, a very sort of open, identified gay culture. Let’s say I’m just a normal…America, thank god this is becoming more predominant all across America so it’s not really an issue anymore, but let’s just say I live in a less open city. What are some ways that guys aren’t thinking about to meet straight girls, besides, obviously, gay bars? Let me ask you about this, actually. I can think of two that I recommend to guys that you’re going to know really well and then be able to give feedback. I tell guys improv classes and acting classes are full…

Carl:
That’s really good, yes. I was going to say, not specifically that, but anything arts related, at all. There will be a local symphony. There will be a local community theatre. There will be, like…it’s amazing. Women are attracted to the arts. You name it. Museums, something. They will go. They like it. Anything with art and history and culture, they will go, and they’re there.

Tucker:
Right. So, as someone who’s obviously as embedded and understands Broadway and that culture as well as anyone, let’s say that I’m in even Austin, a city like this. I kind of like improv or acting. Maybe I’m not going to be a professional, but it’s something I’m interested in, at least, a little bit. I decide I want to do it to meet girls. Is there any sort of things I should do or not do if I make that decision?

Carl:
Yeah. If you make a decision to join a class like that, know what you’re signing up for. Your MO may be to meet girls, so keep that right there. You know your MO. But, then there’s all the secondary stuff. You got to, like, fulfill what you need to do in the class. Otherwise…If you take the class and you’re not doing what the teacher has asked you to do…

Tucker:
…Then you’re just an asshole.

Carl:
Then you’re just an asshole, and any chick in the class is going to be like, “This guy is a dickhead. He just came here to get pussy.” They’re going to know it. They’re going to spot it like that. Do your homework. Do what you’re supposed to do. Again, show that you’re interested. Don’t be afraid to allow yourself to look like an asshole. We all look like assholes. Be self-effacing about it.

Tucker:
Yeah. That’s what I tell guys, too, is like, even if you suck at acting, if you go in sincerely and really make an effort and aren’t afraid to let it loose, people will at least respect your courage if not respect the progress you make.

Carl:
That’s correct. That’s absolutely correct.

Tucker:
And then from there, it’s super easy to get girls because what’s the ratio of gay to straight in the arts? It’s like 90/10 or 80/20 or something.

Carl:
Yeah. Completely. Exactly.

Tucker:
So, if you’re a straight dude in an acting class, it’s like a wolf in a henhouse or something.

Carl:
It is absolutely that. I always tease my straight guy friends, like, that are in show business. I’m like, “Wow, you’ve got it pretty made in this business,” and they all say it. “Yeah, I got into this for that reason.”

Tucker:
Yeah. There’s no other reason.

Carl:
They were smart.

Tucker:
Yup. Are there any other things you can think of? Acting and improv, I know. Any other things in the arts or just random things you think about where, like, there’s tons of girls? What do your straight girlfriends do that guys don’t do?

Carl:
You know, it’s kind of funny. They Netflix a lot. It sounds kind of weird, ‘cause it’s like, how do you meet a girl when she likes to watch Netflix? But they do. They like a lot of quiet time. They read a lot of books. They watch Netflix a lot. They’ll, like, sit down for a day in their bedroom in their pajamas and sort of, like, watch TV. You can’t really meet women that way, but a lot of chicks also have dogs when they’re single. They keep them company. They protect them. They like them if they’re living alone and they’re single. They like having dogs. A lot of my single girlfriends have dogs, and they’re out walking them.

Tucker:
And they’re going to dog parks.

Carl:
They’re at dog parks. They’re at the park. Absolutely. If you like dogs, go for it. That is an in.

Tucker:
Yeah. Do you have a dog or not?

Carl:
I do. I’ve got two dogs. I swear to god, whenever I’m walking them, the women will always be like, “Oh, let me see!” That’s another good idea. If you don’t have a dog, get a dog.

Carl:
That would be very funny. Straight dude, college dude. Listen. We’re giving somebody a million dollar idea.

Tucker:
Are you kidding? How amazing would that be, if you specialized in walking the dogs of rich, influential gay dudes in New York. How much women would you meet through the dogs and then through the dudes?

Carl:
Oh, my god. So many. It’d be unbelievable. You’d be done. Like, that’s it. No, but you know, parks and dogs are a good thing to keep in mind for sure.

Tucker:
Let’s talk about that for a minute, actually, because I know there are a lot of guys…A lot of guys like dogs and they have dogs and they don’t ever think of using their dogs to meet other people, so what are some things that you see…

Carl:
Why not? The dog’s using you!

Tucker:
Oh, I agree. I totally agree. I’m on board. But what are some things that you see people do that either work or don’t work revolving around meeting people around their dogs?

Carl:
When people are mean – all my girlfriends, when people are mean to animals. They don’t like that at all. They just don’t. They don’t like it. When you’re mean to animals and kids, turns them off immediately. But if you’re really nice and if you’ve got your dog and you know, you sort of let them pet the dog. All those sort of things. It always helps.

Tucker:
Okay. Here’s a question, actually, that you can shed light on. I’ve told guys this, but they don’t listen to me. What do most women think about being approached in either gyms or yoga? Things like that?

Carl:
I think they’re cool with you giving them an eye, you know what I mean? And if you’re in a yoga class and you’ve got this chick there who you see every week and you really kind of like her…If you look at her and smile and stuff and just be gentle. Don’t invade her space. Don’t embarrass her in front of the class or anybody there. Just wave at her or something like that. Those small little details and little signs will let them know, like, “Oh, he might like me.” You know what I mean? Or something like that. Again, sort of read your audience. I wouldn’t, like, wait around for her after the class or anything, ‘cause that’s, like, stalking her. She might be a little bit like, “Wait, he’s stalking me.” But if you can find a way to cross her path, you know…

Tucker:
Organically.

Carl:
Yeah, exactly.

Tucker:
Actually, this brings up a super good point. This is something I think you can really help guys with. Most guys I talk to, they’ll ask me, “What are the signs a woman’s into me? I know when a woman’s not into me. She’s not into me. She doesn’t want to talk to me. She ignores me.” But they don’t know the difference between friendship or niceness and attraction, you know? Young guys, especially.

Carl:
It’s true, they don’t, but try and pay attention to her body language. It’s funny, whenever my girlfriends are around guys that they like, their posture will change.

Tucker:
Ah, they’ll sit up and poke their tits out.

Carl:
They’ll sit up and they will do those things. They will actually. They’ll move their hair. They’ll sort of look. They’ll pucker their lips. They will literally start putting on a show. Not overtly so. Don’t get me wrong. But they will. I always sort of know when there’s some guy around that one of my girlfriends likes, ‘cause she’ll check herself. Now, if she’s giving you the cold shoulder, you’ll know ‘cause she’ll be a little more bitchy about it. Her body language will be a little bit colder.

Tucker:
Abrupt. She’ll be turned away from you, things like that.

Carl:
She will. She’ll turn away. She won’t look at you at all. She’ll look past you or look through you. Be aware of those signs. It’s different. Looking through somebody is different than a quick glance at them. They’re very different. One other thing that I wanted to go back to about meeting girls. It may seem daunting, but girls who grew up in a household of guys are great.

Tucker:
Yes. They are. They’re way easier to deal with.

Carl:
They are! They like sports. They can hold their own. Honestly, if they grew up with a bunch of brothers, like, all my girlfriends who grew up in a house of guys, they can hold their own. They like sports more, they’re okay with the cruder stuff. They’ve seen it. You know what I mean? They grew up around guys. They’ve seen it. So, that’s actually – if you want a girlfriend who’s kind of more into sports and things like that, all my girlfriends who grew up with a lot of guys around them are more into that. So, keep that in mind. If you meet a girl who’s like, “Yeah. I’ve got a bunch of brothers,” yeah, pay attention to that.

Tucker:
Excellent. So, let me ask you, touching is a thing that guys don’t understand. I always tell guys if a woman touches you in any way when she doesn’t have to, like if you’re in her way and she taps you on the shoulder, it’s different, but if you’re at a table or a bar, if she puts her body next to yours or on yours, that’s an inevitable sign of attraction. Like, no doubt.

Carl:
Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

Tucker:
So, playing with hair, you said, is one. Puckering up a little bit, lips, things like that.

Carl:
If she comes and sits down right next to you and she’s not overt about it, know what I mean? Like, she’ll just sit down and she is touching you and sort of showing that. Again, don’t go to third gear. Don’t start reaching your hand up her leg. You know what I mean?

Tucker:
Only at a strip club.

Carl:
Yeah. Exactly. You know what I mean? Grab her pinky-to-pinky for a minute. See how she responds to that.

Tucker:
Alright. So, last thing. Let’s talk about…I generally don’t recommend that guys meet women in a bar, simply because it’s a hard thing to approach a girl that you don’t know and you have no social context with?

Carl:
At a straight bar, it really is. I give you guys a lot of credit, ‘cause the political and bravado games that have to go on in that type of environment, it’s like, all these guys are sort of competing for the same girls and everybody knows who the hot ones are and all that. I totally agree with you. Don’t try to meet them at straight bars like that. It’s just…you know. Too much of a clusterfuck.

Tucker:
I agree. So, most people aren’t going to do it, but are there any things you can think of that you’ve heard your female friends say, “Man, this approach works”? I tell guys it’s not a specific approach. It’s just more about confidence and the whole package, but is there any sort of thing that you can think of that you’ve heard? Or whatever.

Carl:
Not that I can think of offhand, but I think that confidence, yes, without being cocky. But you know what’s a big thing which a lot of guys don’t have? Manners. Manners is a big, big thing. It really is. In any social situation with women, manners is a big thing. If you want to buy a girl a drink, ask her. “Hey, do you mind if I buy you a drink?” She’ll tell you yes or no if she’s interested. But she’ll appreciate that you asked. That’ll get her thinking. Manners are a big thing, so now the next question is well, how do I learn manners? You know how I learned manners? I actually – well, I didn’t have online back in my day, but go online and just learn basic etiquette. You’re going to need them for your life anyway, whether it’s a wedding or formal dinner situation or anything. Just learn basic etiquette. Teach yourself. Teach yourself all those things. Women really do like manners, and I think a lot of guys sort of throw that out the window. They notice it. They really do.

Tucker:
Because a lot of guys equate manners with being a pussy, and they’re not the same thing.

Carl:
They’re not the same thing at all. Any successful businessman in this world, from President Obama to the guy who runs the local printing press or whatever, trust me. He knows his manners. And he’s learned his manners because you need them to get ahead and to be in certain situations. So, use them. Women appreciate manners a lot and guys just forget that. They don’t know it.

Tucker:
I could not agree more. So, if there are any listeners in New York, should they be looking you up to set them up with girls or what?

Carl:
Yeah. Hey, why not? As long as you’re not nuts.

Tucker:
I’m kidding, dude. I would never, ever do that to you, Carl. I’m messing with you. So, just so you can give a shout out. You’re producing Hedwig and the Angry Inch right now, right?

Carl:
Hedwig and the Angry Inch, yeah. It’s on Broadway with Neil Patrick Harris right now at the Belasco Theater, and it’s a big, fat hit. It’s really exciting.

Tucker:
Awesome. I know.

Carl:
There’s a lot of straight girls in the audience because straight girls love the theater!

Tucker:
Yeah. Actually, let’s finish on that. Are going to Broadway shows a good way to meet girls or are they too into the show?

Carl:
Are they what?

Tucker:
Are they too into the show to have time to talk to you or when do you meet them?

Carl:
Before the show, at intermission, maybe after…

Tucker:
Like, in line the show before. Definitely.

Carl:
Exactly. The restaurants surrounding the theater will usually have girls in it before and after the show.

Tucker:
Oh, I didn’t think about that in New York. Yeah.

Carl:
They will. I mean, any major city that have – all the Broadway tours still go through all the major cities. Like, they’re going to go to drinks and dinner before and/or after the show.

Tucker:
Yeah. A girl took me to Wicked in Austin, and I think it was 90% women.

Carl:
It is. Because women are the buyers. They are most of our audience, and they’re there and they love men who love the theater.