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Religion & Spirituality

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Countries with the best standard of living are turning atheist. That shift offers a glimpse into the world's future.

Religious people are annoyed by claims that belief in God will go the way of horse transportation, and for much the same reason, specifically an improved standard of living.

The view that religious belief will give way to atheism is known as the secularization thesis. The specific version that I favor (1) is known as the existential security hypothesis. The basic idea is that as people become more affluent, they are less worried about lacking for basic necessities, or dying early from violence or disease. In other words they are secure in their own existence. They do not feel the need to appeal to supernatural entities to calm their fears and insecurities.

The title alone suggests what I have been critized for saying several years about militant atheists, by declaring Atheism will "defeat" religions. That in itself congers up an affront, hostility, and desire to oppress people for religious beliefs. I fail to see how billions of normal people, who do nothing to affect anyone else by believing in God, and practicing their religion, affects the living standards of anyone else. Why is there so much hostility twards believers from the non believer communities. I think the affront is more from issues of social non acceptance, that are driven by religious scripture, that many transend many different religions. Things that are regarded as sins, but no nessesarily against any laws are some of those issues. Adulty, homosexuality, abortion, birth control to name a few. Those are more of the drivers in this affront to DEFEAT religions, becasue we confuse what is against written laws, but is still regarded as morally wrong, or sinful. It has nothing do to with standard of living, how nice your homes are, or what car you drive.

Take a look at history, and see how the standard of living was in countries that wiped religious beliefs out, like Russia under Lennon and Stalin, Communist China, North Korea, much of eastern Europe. I doubt you would want that. What was the standard of living in the UK like duing WW2 when Hitler would have walked right in and occupied you like he did France? Do you think you would have been better off, had Hitler killed off every jew in a religious genocide?

I don't know who would think that by 2038, every church in the USA, or for that matter the UK for you humphreys, would improve your standard of living, but would be such a cultural blight, seeing them all empty rotting buildings, you life would improve.

I would not like to see the day religion was wiped out, and along with it, all the hospitals, universities, and charitable organizations connected with religions. Would you seriously like to see that? Would you seriously like to also eliminate all the worldwide humanitarian aid given by religious affiliations? Seriously rejoice in seeing a completly Godless world, with all screads of religion DEFEATED?

Lets put you honesty to the test Humphrey since you brought this question to the table. If you could wave a majic wand and see this tommorrow morning, would you actually wipe out any and all religion? Make us all Atheists, and think we would all be better off in the world we are in, and living standards. What doors worldwide would be closed forever?

"Defeat" simply means to become the majority belief system across the world, as it is in many European countries.

I don't want to "wipe out" anything, but I look forward to the time when we are evolved enough to not need religion any more. None of this would be done by force in any way, but the world would be a better place in my opinion.

As it stands we are probably not ready, but natural progression tends to suggest eventually we will live in a world where we do not need or crave religion, and that will be a good thing if you ask me.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

I think it is rather interesting that the this article references wealth as the driving force behind the so called "defeat" of religion. The context here is that with wealth comes atheism.

However, the problem with placing your faith in any currency based system is that someone always must own the debt; whether it is in poverty or, God forbid, Slavery. Like the Greeks, like the Romans, like the Germans.. each society grows accustomed to the wealth and luxuriates that they built around them. With that came secularization since they believe they no longer need a God to provide for them. But eventually the system falls apart, just like it has in every currency based system in history. At that point, peoples faith are no longer backed by wealth.

It may be possible that Atheism will have out-paced Religion by 2038, but I personally do not believe wealth and affluence are the keys to prosperity and well-being.

Not wealth so much as well-being. Well-being=less struggle=less fear and desperation. God belief is often a result of struggle in life, so it would seem likely that better standards of living would result in less need for belief, and therefore more atheism.

These things are happening in some European countries as we speak.

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

capricorn wrote:I think it is rather interesting that the this article references wealth as the driving force behind the so called "defeat" of religion. The context here is that with wealth comes atheism.

However, the problem with placing your faith in any currency based system is that someone always must own the debt; whether it is in poverty or, God forbid, Slavery. Like the Greeks, like the Romans, like the Germans.. each society grows accustomed to the wealth and luxuriates that they built around them. With that came secularization since they believe they no longer need a God to provide for them. But eventually the system falls apart, just like it has in every currency based system in history. At that point, peoples faith are no longer backed by wealth.

It may be possible that Atheism will have out-paced Religion by 2038, but I personally do not believe wealth and affluence are the keys to prosperity and well-being.

It's ironic that you would say that because...

The "God" of the Bible promotes slavery. America was built by slave owning Christians. And what was once the world's wealthiest nation, led by Christians, has crumbled over the last decade.

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic causes me to believe.

The fact the word "Defeated" was used can not be very well smoothed over, Humphreys. The word itself is self explanatory, It implies a movement against religion, or a goal to oppress religion, obviously it comes from anti-religious groups, or Atheist organizations, or both.

The "God" of the Bible does not promote slavery, however slavery was indeed documented. The Bible is an account of history told by several different authors. The Bible contains accounts of slavery, but just becuase slavery is accounted for in the bible does not mean "God" promotes it.In addition, there are different forms of slavery:Permanent EnslavementSexual slaveryDebt slaveryInjury and Compensation

The "God" of the Bible did not promote any form of slavery, however he would not destroy nations over Debt Slavery or Injury and Compensation. The "God" of the Bible did enforce his power in opposition to mans establishment of Permanent Enslavement and Sexual slavery.

event_horizon wrote:America was built by slave owning Christians. And what was once the world's wealthiest nation, led by Christians, has crumbled over the last decade.

Nope, Atheist Founders were slave owners

Thomas Jefferson wrote:"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

George Washington wrote:"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society."

James Madison wrote:"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

John Adams wrote:"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

The "God" of the Bible does not promote slavery, however slavery was indeed documented. The Bible is an account of history told by several different authors. The Bible contains accounts of slavery, but just becuase slavery is accounted for in the bible does not mean "God" promotes it.In addition, there are different forms of slavery:Permanent EnslavementSexual slaveryDebt slaveryInjury and Compensation

The "God" of the Bible did not promote any form of slavery, however he would not destroy nations over Debt Slavery or Injury and Compensation. The "God" of the Bible did enforce his power in opposition to mans establishment of Permanent Enslavement and Sexual slavery.

Baloney. The Bible indeed promotes slavery -- in both the Old and New Testaments. It also promotes beating slaves and having sex with them. It's quite appalling. Read these verses:

"You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

"The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

capricorn wrote:

event_horizon wrote:America was built by slave owning Christians. And what was once the world's wealthiest nation, led by Christians, has crumbled over the last decade.

Nope, Atheist Founders were slave owners

Thomas Jefferson wrote:"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

George Washington wrote:"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society."

James Madison wrote:"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

John Adams wrote:"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

Those presidents were deists, not atheists.

What matters is that over 90% of Americans were Christian, and they owned slaves.

While Thomas Jefferson inherited slaves, he was a strong proponent of anti-slavery constitutionalism. Benjamin Franklin became president of an abolitionist group called the Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery. George Washington desired slavery to be abolished, and so did James Madison. John Adams was a lifelong opponent of slavery. These non-Christian presidents paved the way for Abraham Lincoln (who was also non-Christian) to finally abolish slavery.

Who didn't want to end slavery? The South -- where the Bible Belt is. In fact they went to war because they opposed the abolition of slavery.

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic causes me to believe.

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