Interesting. Lots of love for millennium here over latitude, discraft, west side, vibram, etc for this particular 300-325 range set. I've actually got a millennium Orion LF for into the wind shots. It does well but i can't get even close to making it take a flip towards anhyzer unless I force it. Thanks for the recommendations. Keep the discussion going even thou I bought someDisc. This is good info for next time or trades.

jenb wrote:I used to love Valks, but a whole bunch of people told me that a Leopard is even better at 300-350 feet of power. Turns out it's true!

Control wise that is correct.

zj When the Beast was released it was marketed as a modified Valk. So yes shaped differently but not terribly much. At least it is shaped longer and more HSS with LSS being possibly being a hair lower

A light P PD when used will turn for his power level so why not if a rotation is preferred. Depending on how HSS the P PD acts for the OP it could break in to flipping too soon but then a lighter S PD would bring longevity while not being terribly hard fading or power hungry. At his power it could be anything between S PD 150-166.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

PMantle wrote:Recommending OLFs and OLSs are just more of the same as the Valk with different stabilities.

I can turn over a beat in DX easily and I can get a nice S curve from a new DX.

OLF is going to be pretty darned overstable, and shorter than the Valk at that power.

well when he asks for a Valk replacement...not a longer valk...thats what I did

The MOLF is basically a valkyrie, but more workable. Capable of going straight, left, right, flip, turnover, roller. whatever you can dream. It seasons better than even a star valkyrie, which only wants to flip straight or over.

The OLS will start out less stable than a valkyrie, and will not hang pound for pound with a Valkyrie.

The MOLF will not be shorter than a valkyrie at any power level. Same with the SOLF. The only one that acts more stable for lower power is the QOLF

Well, you and I attacked the issue with different assumptions. I did not see him having issues with the Valk. Also, every OLF I've thrown has been shorter than every valk I've thrown due to them being really overstable in my hands.

Jank already bought his drivers (nice assortment, have fun! Those are all some quality molds, I hope you find one or two that you really mesh with and have a great time throwing!), but since my progression of drivers went from Valks to Orions, I have to chime in here with a slightly different perspective.

First, Orions are excellent Valk replacements, that's why they've been in my bag since they replaced my Valks about 5 or so years ago.

Orions (LF and LS) are not shorter than Valks. They were equal or a tad farther when I was throwing with 300' of power, they are also equal or a tad longer now that I am closer to 400' of power. In flight lists distances as Valk - 375', Orions (LF and LS) - 379'. This is very consistent with what I've found in years of throwing them.

LFs are not overstable. Not even at 300' of power. Yes, they fade at that power range, but thrown flat, they stay flat (and MOLF will track right, beat SOLF will too) a long way and then fade a bit, not a ton. Joe's lists the LF at -.5 with a needed power of 325' -375' to get that early turn. In flight lists it at -17%. Hardly overstable numbers by any stretch. Pmantle, per your other posts, you are throwing with that power, so the LF shouldn't be anywhere close to overstable for you.

LSs are not less stable than a Valk, they are more stable with less turn. In flight lists -32% to the Valks -40%. Joe's puts the Valk at -2 to the LSs -1.5.

The question was "What are my options if I want to try and fall in love with something new? Is there another disc out there that can hang pound for pound with a Valk? If so which disc is it?"

IMO, the answer to that question is one or both of the Orion's. Not trying to pick a fight, but I've thrown these drivers for a long time. The Orions, again IMO, are the single best pair of primary drivers out there. I've been throwing them since they were released. I've given an honest try to almost every similar driver to come out since. Very few even come close for me.

Cool. I don't agree. Well, I agree with what you said about the Valk vs. OLS. Seems silly to replace a Valk for 4 feet and less stable. I don't agree with any of the rest including the not trying to pick a fight part.

The OLS is slightly more stable than the valk. They are similar in distance and are close in stability but have unique flight. In my experience, the Valk is slightly faster but the OLS has more glide.

If he does well with the Valk but is looking for something different, then the OLS should be a good fit. Since he already has an OLF, pairing it with an OLS makes it an even better choice. As he improves his technique, he can transition nicely to the OLF as his primary driver and shift the OLS to turnover / hyzer flip duties.

I'll back up the Leopard. Valks, for me, are a bit squirrely after some use, even Champs. The Leopard is a bit shorter and complements my Roc(3)s quite nicely when I need something a little understable. In the 350-400 range, an anhyzer shot with a Teebird works pretty well or a hyzer flip with the Leopard (closer to the 350-375 range). Any farther than that, and I am working with a Dominator or, to my dismay, a Champ Boss.

I use a bright pink, beat Champ Valk for a roller. I tried out a (175) Champ Roadrunner and for some strange reason, it's quite overstable (or moreso than you would think). It flies nearly like a brand new Valk.

When I was throwing around 300-320' I was using 166g DX Valks, or DX Beasts (new mold), for straight shots with no head/tail wind. When the valks got really beat up I'd use them for anhyzers and downwind drives. At some point I started getting more power in my throws and they got pretty squirrely, at which point I tried a bunch of alternatives and settled on a 166g M OLS for drives around 320-340'.

I am completely in love with the OLS. I don't know if it's psychological and it's been a few years, but they seemed to just fly straighter and more consistently and slightly further than the valk (definitely less turn, possibly less fade, further on a lower line). You can get some pretty good distance without having a huge ceiling and without needing a super wide gap. So many near aces with that thing.

Since I loved the OLS so much I started using a 166g M OLF for upwind drives and drives that I wanted to have heavy fade. Can't say I spent much time comparing discs for the overstable distance driver slot, but the OLF did the job well. The OLF was definitely much more stable than the OLS at the distances I was throwing them... there is no way I could have used it as a primary straight distance driver.

Ok so how is the Patriot supposed to fly when you get a normal good one? Sounds like mine was crap from out of the box. It flips a lot more 2.5-3x more so than my Champ Leo and my Star Leo won't flip at all and fades earlier and harder being shorter than the Champ Leo. My Patriot is not unusably flippy but i would not use it for anything more than annies and as such it is too limited you for me to bag it. What is the relative HSS and LSS of a good Patriot vs a Champ Leo?

If a good Patriot broken in will be like a longer Leo wouldn't that mean it is what the River is like when new? The Fury GL that i have fades significantly more than the River so it is not as good in what the Leo does the best and that is flying in a perfectly straight line. So the strengths of the Fury makes it better in other roles.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

You have a strange Patriot JR, probably it got warped in transit to Finlandia.

I have a new rigid yellow Icon Patriot in my bag that I cannot for the life of me turn over more than a few degrees, no matter how hard I rip it, how loud I grunt, and how prostrate I am after the follow through. I actually think this one is too stable, such that it overlaps too much with my Rival. But after you break it in...you can count on very clean lines, about 5-10 degrees of high speed turn, then a very long straight glidy flight, followed by a penetrating fade.

The white gummy Icon Patriots are the best (and longest) I've seen, if you can find one of those.