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One dead and 19 injured as car strikes crowds along route of white nationalist rally in Charlottesville

Originally Posted by WAPO

CHARLOTTESVILLE — A chaotic and violent day turned to tragedy Saturday as hundreds of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan members — planning to stage what they described as their largest rally in decades to “take America back” — clashed with counterprotesters in the streets and a car plowed into crowds, killing one person and injuring 19 others.

Angela Taylor, a spokeswoman for UVA Medical Center, said 20 people were brought to the hospital in the early afternooon after three cars collided in a pedestrian mall packed with people. One died and the rest incurred injuries ranging from life-threatening to minor. Another 15 people were injured during street brawls, city officials said.

Earlier, police had evacuated a downtown park as rallygoers and counterprotesters traded blows and hurled bottles and chemical irritants at one another, putting an end to the noon rally before it even began.

Gov. Terry McAuliffe declared a state of emergency shortly before 11 a.m., saying he was “disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence” and blaming “mostly out-of-state protesters.”

Despite the decision to quash the rally, clashes continued on side streets and throughout the downtown. In the early afternoon, three cars collided in a pedestrian mall at Water and Fourth Streets, sending bystanders running and screaming. It was unclear if it was accidental or intentional.

“I am heartbroken that a life has been lost here,” said Charlottesville Mayor Michael Signer in a tweet. “I urge all people of good will--go home.”

Elected leaders in Virginia and elsewhere urged peace, blasting the white supremacist views on display in Charlottesville as ugly. U.S. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) called their display “repugnant.”

But President Trump, known for the rapid-fire tweets, remained silent throughout the morning. It was after 1 p.m. when he weighed in, writing on Twitter: “We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!”

At a late-afternoon news conference to discuss veterans’ health care, Trump said that he was following the events in Charlottesville closely. “The hate and the division must stop and must stop right now,” Trump said, without specifically mentioning white nationalists or their views. “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides. On many sides,” he said.

Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, a Trump supporter who was in Charlottesville Saturday, quickly shot back at the president. “So, after decades of White Americans being targeted for discriminated & anti-White hatred, we come together as a people, and you attack us?” Duke tweeted. “I would recommend you take a good look in the mirror & remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency, not radical leftists.”

Dozens of the white nationalists in Charlottesville were wearing red Make America Great Again hats. Asked by a reporter in New Jersey whether he wanted the support of white nationalists, Trump did not respond.

By early afternoon, hundreds of rallygoers had made their way from Emancipation Park — where they had expected to protest the planned removal of a Confederate statue — to a larger park two miles to the north. Duke, speaking to the crowd, called Saturday’s events “the first step toward taking America back.”

“The truth is European Americans face tremendous discrimination in this country — jobs, scholarships, promotions,” Duke said. “The truth is we are being ethnically cleansed within our own nation.”

White nationalist leader Richard Spencer also addressed the group, urging people to disperse. But he promised that they would gather again for a future demonstration, blaming Saturday’s violence on counterprotesters.

Even as crowds began to thin, the town remained unsettled and on edge. Onlookers were deeply shaken at the pedestrian mall, where ambulances had arrived to treat victims of the car crash.

Susie McClannahan, 24, said counterprotesters were marching on Fourth Street when she saw a “silver gray vehicle” drive through the crowd, and then immediately shift into reverse in what she described as full speed.

“Everyone was in shock and all of a sudden we heard people scream get to the wall because the driver was backing up,” McClannahan said. She said those closest to the accident ran to those injured in the street.

“I didn’t want to believe it was real. It was just so horrible,” she said.

Hunter Harmon, 20, saw people “flung” in the air after they were hit by a car and he heard others screaming.

“We were marching and next to each other and all of a sudden I just heard a bunch of bangs and I saw a bunch of people flying through the air and people injured on the ground,” Harmon said.

Corinne Geller, a spokeswoman for the Virginia State Police said there were multiple injuries ranging from life threatening to minor. There were at least three vehicles involved; one left the scene and has been located, Geller said.

Earlier Saturday, men in combat gear — some wearing bicycle and motorcycle helmets and carrying clubs and sticks and makeshift shields — had fought each other in the downtown streets, with little apparent police interference. Both sides sprayed each other with chemical irritants and plastic bottles were hurled through the air.

A large contingent of Charlottesville police officers and Virginia State Police troopers in riot gear were stationed on side streets and at nearby barricades but did nothing to break up the melee until around 11:40 a.m.

Using megaphones, police declared an unlawful assembly and gave a five-minute warning to leave Emancipation Park, They were met by equal numbers of counterprotesters, including clergy, Black Lives Matter activists and Princeton professor Cornel West.

“The worst part is that people got hurt and the police stood by and didn’t do a ******* thing,” said David Copper, 70, of Staunton, Va.

State Del. David Toscano (D-Charlottesville), minority leader of Virginia’s House, praised the response by Charlottesville and state police.

“Things were getting out of hand in the skirmishes between the alt-right and what I would describe as the outside agitators who wanted to encourage violence,” Toscano said.

Asked why police did not act sooner to intervene as violence unfolded, Toscano said he could not comment. But they trained very hard for this and it might have been that they were waiting for a more effective time to get people out” of Emancipation Park, he said.

A group of three dozen self-described “militia” men, who were wearing full camouflage and were armed with long guns, said they were there to help keep the peace, but they also did not break up the fights.

There were vicious clashes on Market Street in front of Emancipation Park, where the rally was to begin at noon. A large contingent of white nationalist rallygoers holding shields and swinging wooden clubs rushed through a line of counterprotesters.

By 11 a.m., several fully armed militias and hundreds of right-wing rallygoers had poured into the small downtown park that was to be the site of the rally.

Counterprotesters held “Black Lives Matter” signs and placards expressing support for equality and love as they faced rallygoers who waved Confederate flags and posters that said “the Goyim know,” referring to non-Jewish people, and “the Jewish media is going down.”

“No Trump! No KKK! No fascist USA!” the counterprotesters chanted.

“Too late, f-----s!” a man yelled back at them.

Naundi Cook, 23, said she was scared during the morning protests. Cook, who is black, said she came to “support her people,” but she’s never seen something like this before.

When violence broke out, she started shaking and got goose bumps.

“I’ve seen people walking around with tear gas all over their face all over their clothes. People getting maced, fighting,” she said. “I didn’t want to be next.”

Cook said she couldn’t sit back and watch white nationalists descend on her town. She has a three-year-old daughter to stand up for, she said.

“Right now, I’m not sad,” she said once the protests dispersed. “I’m a little more empowered. All these people and support, I feel like we’re on top right now because of all the support that we have.”

After police ordered everyone to vacate the park, columns of white nationalists marched out, carrying Confederate and Nazi flags as they headed down Market Street in an odd parade. Counterprotesters lined the sidewalks and shouted epithets and mocked the group as they walked by. At various points along the route, skirmishes broke out and shouting matches ensued.

Charlottesville officials, concerned about crowds and safety issues, had tried to move the rally to a larger park away from the city’s downtown. But Jason Kessler, the rally’s organizer, filed a successful lawsuit against the city that was supported by the Virginia ACLU, saying that his First Amendment rights would be violated by moving the rally.

Tensions began Friday night, as several hundred white supremacists chanted “White lives matter!” “You will not replace us!” and “Jews will not replace us!” as they carried torches marched in a parade through the University of Virginia campus.

The fast-paced march was made up almost exclusively of men in their 20s and 30s, though there were some who looked to be in their midteens.

Meanwhile, hundreds of counterprotesters packed a church to pray and organize. A small group of counterprotesters clashed with the marchers shortly before 10 p.m. at the base of a statue of Thomas Jefferson, U-Va.’ s founder.

One counterprotester apparently deployed a chemical spray, which affected the eyes of a dozen or so marchers. It left them floundering and seeking medical assistance.

Police officers who had been keeping a wary eye on the march jumped in and broke up the fights. The marchers then disbanded, though several remained and were treated by police and medical personnel for the effects of the mace attack. It was not clear if any one was arrested.

Saturday’s Unite the Right rally was being held to protest the planned removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. The city of Charlottesville voted to remove the statue earlier this year, but it remains in the Emacipation Park, formerly known as Lee Park, pending a judge’s ruling expected later this month.

Play Video 1:08
At least 1 dead and 19 injured after clashes at white nationalist gathering

A car plowed into crowds at a white nationalist gathering in Charlottesville on Aug. 12, killing one person and injuring 19 others. (Photo: Evelyn Hockstein/The Washington Post)
By Joe Heim, Ellie Silverman, T. Rees Shapiro and Emma Brown
August 12 at 4:12 PM
CHARLOTTESVILLE — A chaotic and violent day turned to tragedy Saturday as hundreds of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan members — planning to stage what they described as their largest rally in decades to “take America back” — clashed with counterprotesters in the streets and a car plowed into crowds, killing one person and injuring 19 others.

Angela Taylor, a spokeswoman for UVA Medical Center, said 20 people were brought to the hospital in the early afternooon after three cars collided in a pedestrian mall packed with people. One died and the rest incurred injuries ranging from life-threatening to minor. Another 15 people were injured during street brawls, city officials said.

Earlier, police had evacuated a downtown park as rallygoers and counterprotesters traded blows and hurled bottles and chemical irritants at one another, putting an end to the noon rally before it even began.

Gov. Terry McAuliffe declared a state of emergency shortly before 11 a.m., saying he was “disgusted by the hatred, bigotry and violence” and blaming “mostly out-of-state protesters.”

Tensions rise as white nationalists gather for a rally in Charlottesville, Va.
View Photos White nationalists hold a Unite the Right rally, a gathering of groups whose members have said they are being persecuted for being white and that white history in America is being erased, in Charlottesville after torch-bearing protesters marched through the University of Virginia campus the night before.
Despite the decision to quash the rally, clashes continued on side streets and throughout the downtown. In the early afternoon, three cars collided in a pedestrian mall at Water and Fourth Streets, sending bystanders running and screaming. It was unclear if it was accidental or intentional.

“I am heartbroken that a life has been lost here,” said Charlottesville Mayor Michael Signer in a tweet. “I urge all people of good will--go home.”

Elected leaders in Virginia and elsewhere urged peace, blasting the white supremacist views on display in Charlottesville as ugly. U.S. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) called their display “repugnant.”

But President Trump, known for the rapid-fire tweets, remained silent throughout the morning. It was after 1 p.m. when he weighed in, writing on Twitter: “We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!”

At a late-afternoon news conference to discuss veterans’ health care, Trump said that he was following the events in Charlottesville closely. “The hate and the division must stop and must stop right now,” Trump said, without specifically mentioning white nationalists or their views. “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides. On many sides,” he said.

Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, a Trump supporter who was in Charlottesville Saturday, quickly shot back at the president. “So, after decades of White Americans being targeted for discriminated & anti-White hatred, we come together as a people, and you attack us?” Duke tweeted. “I would recommend you take a good look in the mirror & remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency, not radical leftists.”

Dozens of the white nationalists in Charlottesville were wearing red Make America Great Again hats. Asked by a reporter in New Jersey whether he wanted the support of white nationalists, Trump did not respond.

By early afternoon, hundreds of rallygoers had made their way from Emancipation Park — where they had expected to protest the planned removal of a Confederate statue — to a larger park two miles to the north. Duke, speaking to the crowd, called Saturday’s events “the first step toward taking America back.”

“The truth is European Americans face tremendous discrimination in this country — jobs, scholarships, promotions,” Duke said. “The truth is we are being ethnically cleansed within our own nation.”

White nationalist leader Richard Spencer also addressed the group, urging people to disperse. But he promised that they would gather again for a future demonstration, blaming Saturday’s violence on counterprotesters.

Even as crowds began to thin, the town remained unsettled and on edge. Onlookers were deeply shaken at the pedestrian mall, where ambulances had arrived to treat victims of the car crash.

Susie McClannahan, 24, said counterprotesters were marching on Fourth Street when she saw a “silver gray vehicle” drive through the crowd, and then immediately shift into reverse in what she described as full speed.

“Everyone was in shock and all of a sudden we heard people scream get to the wall because the driver was backing up,” McClannahan said. She said those closest to the accident ran to those injured in the street.

“I didn’t want to believe it was real. It was just so horrible,” she said.

Hunter Harmon, 20, saw people “flung” in the air after they were hit by a car and he heard others screaming.

“We were marching and next to each other and all of a sudden I just heard a bunch of bangs and I saw a bunch of people flying through the air and people injured on the ground,” Harmon said.

Corinne Geller, a spokeswoman for the Virginia State Police said there were multiple injuries ranging from life threatening to minor. There were at least three vehicles involved; one left the scene and has been located, Geller said.

[Decades before Charlottesville, the Ku Klux Klan was dead. The first Hollywood blockbuster revived it.]

Earlier Saturday, men in combat gear — some wearing bicycle and motorcycle helmets and carrying clubs and sticks and makeshift shields — had fought each other in the downtown streets, with little apparent police interference. Both sides sprayed each other with chemical irritants and plastic bottles were hurled through the air.

A large contingent of Charlottesville police officers and Virginia State Police troopers in riot gear were stationed on side streets and at nearby barricades but did nothing to break up the melee until around 11:40 a.m.

Using megaphones, police declared an unlawful assembly and gave a five-minute warning to leave Emancipation Park, They were met by equal numbers of counterprotesters, including clergy, Black Lives Matter activists and Princeton professor Cornel West.

“The worst part is that people got hurt and the police stood by and didn’t do a ******* thing,” said David Copper, 70, of Staunton, Va.

State Del. David Toscano (D-Charlottesville), minority leader of Virginia’s House, praised the response by Charlottesville and state police.

“Things were getting out of hand in the skirmishes between the alt-right and what I would describe as the outside agitators who wanted to encourage violence,” Toscano said.

Asked why police did not act sooner to intervene as violence unfolded, Toscano said he could not comment. But they trained very hard for this and it might have been that they were waiting for a more effective time to get people out” of Emancipation Park, he said.

A group of three dozen self-described “militia” men, who were wearing full camouflage and were armed with long guns, said they were there to help keep the peace, but they also did not break up the fights.

There were vicious clashes on Market Street in front of Emancipation Park, where the rally was to begin at noon. A large contingent of white nationalist rallygoers holding shields and swinging wooden clubs rushed through a line of counterprotesters.

By 11 a.m., several fully armed militias and hundreds of right-wing rallygoers had poured into the small downtown park that was to be the site of the rally.

Counterprotesters held “Black Lives Matter” signs and placards expressing support for equality and love as they faced rallygoers who waved Confederate flags and posters that said “the Goyim know,” referring to non-Jewish people, and “the Jewish media is going down.”

“No Trump! No KKK! No fascist USA!” the counterprotesters chanted.

“Too late, f-----s!” a man yelled back at them.

Naundi Cook, 23, said she was scared during the morning protests. Cook, who is black, said she came to “support her people,” but she’s never seen something like this before.

When violence broke out, she started shaking and got goose bumps.

“I’ve seen people walking around with tear gas all over their face all over their clothes. People getting maced, fighting,” she said. “I didn’t want to be next.”

Cook said she couldn’t sit back and watch white nationalists descend on her town. She has a three-year-old daughter to stand up for, she said.

“Right now, I’m not sad,” she said once the protests dispersed. “I’m a little more empowered. All these people and support, I feel like we’re on top right now because of all the support that we have.”

After police ordered everyone to vacate the park, columns of white nationalists marched out, carrying Confederate and Nazi flags as they headed down Market Street in an odd parade. Counterprotesters lined the sidewalks and shouted epithets and mocked the group as they walked by. At various points along the route, skirmishes broke out and shouting matches ensued.

Charlottesville officials, concerned about crowds and safety issues, had tried to move the rally to a larger park away from the city’s downtown. But Jason Kessler, the rally’s organizer, filed a successful lawsuit against the city that was supported by the Virginia ACLU, saying that his First Amendment rights would be violated by moving the rally.

Tensions began Friday night, as several hundred white supremacists chanted “White lives matter!” “You will not replace us!” and “Jews will not replace us!” as they carried torches marched in a parade through the University of Virginia campus.

The fast-paced march was made up almost exclusively of men in their 20s and 30s, though there were some who looked to be in their midteens.

Meanwhile, hundreds of counterprotesters packed a church to pray and organize. A small group of counterprotesters clashed with the marchers shortly before 10 p.m. at the base of a statue of Thomas Jefferson, U-Va.’ s founder.

One counterprotester apparently deployed a chemical spray, which affected the eyes of a dozen or so marchers. It left them floundering and seeking medical assistance.

Police officers who had been keeping a wary eye on the march jumped in and broke up the fights. The marchers then disbanded, though several remained and were treated by police and medical personnel for the effects of the mace attack. It was not clear if any one was arrested.

Saturday’s Unite the Right rally was being held to protest the planned removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. The city of Charlottesville voted to remove the statue earlier this year, but it remains in the Emacipation Park, formerly known as Lee Park, pending a judge’s ruling expected later this month.

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Saturday marked the second time in six weeks that Charlottesville has faced a protest from white supremacist groups for its decision to remove the statue. On July 8, about three dozen members of a regional Ku Klux Klan group protested in the city.

Sullivan described herself as “deeply saddened and disturbed by the hateful behavior”shown by the marchers.

Signer said he was “beyond disgusted by this unsanctioned and despicable display of visual intimidation on a college campus.” He called the chanting procession a “cowardly parade of hatred, bigotry, racism, and intolerance.”

One dead and 19 injured as car strikes crowds along route of white nationalist rally in Charlottesville

Stupid and sad

Originally Posted by WizardofOz

So tell me. Do you prefer to 'bash the fash' or bash the antifa?

It's a false dilemma. There is no reason any intelligent person would need to choose between two groups engaging in mob violence.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

I knew about his antics back in the 80s, then he was a character in wrestling, can you imagine Ike being involved in entertainment wrestling? He is more an entertainer than a politician.

Headdrassed bombing North Korea in 1999. He said we had to pay attention to then, here he was right. At least he reacted to the Charlottesville riot, although not to the sanctification of some liberals. Do we know who used a car as a weapon?

I knew about his antics back in the 80s, then he was a character in wrestling, can you imagine Ike being involved in entertainment wrestling? He is more an entertainer than a politician.

Headdrassed bombing North Korea in 1999. He said we had to pay attention to then, here he was right. At least he reacted to the Charlottesville riot, although not to the sanctification of some liberals. Do we know who used a car as a weapon?

This has a video of the car running into the anti-KKK crowd. That would lead you to believe it was alt-right.

Trump isn't the anti-establishment rebel, many portray him to be. I believe he's swimming in the swamp, with everybody else. The establishment, the corrupt cabal of politicians in Washington, want America to maintain an adversarial foreign policy towards Russia. That's stupid. Dumb. Why should we continue, expanding NATO into Russia's backyard, its sphere of influence, and pretend that we're in a position to lecture Russia about its supposed militarism and interference in the internal, political affairs of other nations? Do we really have the moral high ground to be lecturing Russia on militarism and how it shouldn't be interfering in Ukraine and Syria, when we have over 800 military bases in more than 70 countries around the world?

We invaded Iraq, under the pretext of getting rid of its WMDs, and created a vast power vacuum, that was replaced with a government that is in bed with Iran, and with radical Islamic terrorists, the likes of ISIS and others. Iran has more influence now in Iraq than it's had for centuries. In our attempt to "fix" Iraq, we made the situation there worse. Same with Libya. We tried to "fix" Libya, by force, by sponsoring a civil war. We provided the Islamic radicals of Libya, with arms, through our Arab allies, like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and provided them with logistical and air support. We had an aircraft carrier, launching sorties into Libya, right off the Libyan coast. We supported the so called "freedom fighters" in Libya, and now that country is a mess. Chaos. ISIS is taking over Libya, and the Libyan government is being run by a bunch of corrupt, incompetent western puppets. The country is literally in a catastrophic state, economically and otherwise. It's a ruined country, thanks to our need to "fix" the world.

We then sponsored the "Arab Spring", and got rid of Mubarak in Egypt, replacing him with the Muslim Brotherhood.The Egyptian peopleweren't going to have it. They rebelled against the Muslim Brotherhood and replaced it with a government, much like the one they had before, with Mubarak.

Syria, another mess, we're now involved in. We're trying to "fix" Syria and that's not going to work. Ukraine, we also funded, sponsored that revolution, replacing the legally, democratically elected government ofYanukovych, with a svoboda party run government, comprised of literally, right wing fascists. The svoboda party supported Hitler, during the second world war and maintains a very hostile stance towards Russia and consequently, towards Russians as well.

The south east region of Ukraine, including Creamia, is mostly populated by ethnic Russians, who speak and identify as ethnically Russian. That's what started the conflict, between the new svoboda run government and the eastern "Donbas" region of Ukraine.

This is right on Russia's border. Creamia was part of Russia, for centuries. That's why the people there are mostly, ethnically Russian. How can we, as America, insist, that Russia is being militaristic, interfering in the affairs of other countries, when Russia is simply defending its regional interests? Think about it, how would we like it as Americans, if Russia was spreading a military alliance, established during the cold war, to fight the United States, into Mexico and Canada? Mexico and Canada, join this Russian led military alliance, and agree to deploy Russian mssiles, right on our border. We wouldn't allow it. We'd go to war with Russia, Mexico and Canada, if that happened. We've been poking the bear, unnecessarily, with NATO, for years.

What happened to the golden rule? Don't do unto others, what you don't want done to you? Very simple. Trump supposedly, wasn't going to continue with the saber rattling and the warmongering. Our obsession with "regime change", "fixing" other countries, by ousting their governments and replacing them with something worse. He promised, he wouldn't continue with that type of foreign policy. The truth is, he is. Basically, it's the same poopoo. We should seek better relations with Russia and just focus on destroying ISIS. Stop trying to replace Assad, with something else.

North Korea, that's a unique situation. We can't allow that bloated chipmunk, to acquire ICBMs, capable of hitting the United States mainland. We have to do something about that. We should play it smart. This is a job for the CIA. Before we get into a war with North Korea, and possibly China and Russia, as a consequence, leading to a third world war. We should try to establish a network of agents in North Korea, that will "dispatch" the chipmunk.

Hey RJ, you might want to rethink the extra large font if you're going to post that length. Now onto the notions.

Originally Posted by RealityJerk

Trump isn't the anti-establishment rebel, many portray him to be.

Anyone who bought into the idea of a rich old white guy being a rebel deserves their disappointment.

I believe he's swimming in the swamp, with everybody else. The establishment, the corrupt cabal of politicians in Washington, want America to maintain an adversarial foreign policy towards Russia. That's stupid. Dumb.

Depends on the Russians. If they're getting expansionist again and meddling in our political process they're making themselves the enemy.

Why should we continue, expanding NATO into Russia's backyard, its sphere of influence, and pretend that we're in a position to lecture Russia about its supposed militarism and interference in the internal, political affairs of other nations?

Because we aren't absorbing these people against their will, for one thing. We're protecting their right to autonomy.

Do we really have the moral high ground to be lecturing Russia on militarism and how it shouldn't be interfering in Ukraine and Syria, when we have over 800 military bases in more than 70 countries around the world?

Yes. We have leases and the nations where we have those bases want us there, with the exception of Cuba.

You seem to think all killing is murder, to analogize. It isn't.

We invaded Iraq, under the pretext of getting rid of its WMDs, and created a vast power vacuum, that was replaced with a government that is in bed with Iran, and with radical Islamic terrorists, the likes of ISIS and others.

See, that's one way you know we aren't in the nation gobbling business. You think Russia would take something for any reason then give it back to the people? That said, our foreign policy with the Middle East has been muddled at best and incompetent as a rule. You won't get any argument from me on that point.

This is right on Russia's border. Creamia was part of Russia, for centuries. That's why the people there are mostly, ethnically Russian. How can we, as America, insist, that Russia is being militaristic, interfering in the affairs of other countries, when Russia is simply defending its regional interests?

Probably because they're attempting to foment revolution where they aren't more directly involved in carving a piece of a country out for themselves where they never did when it was in their orbit.

Think about it, how would we like it as Americans, if Russia was spreading a military alliance, established during the cold war, to fight the United States, into Mexico and Canada?

NATO was formed to protect its membership against the potential for Soviet aggression, not to attempt to invade the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was busy fomenting revolution and threat, including the placement of nuclear weapons just off our southern shore.

What happened to the golden rule?

It's still there. You have a rosy pair of lenses you're viewing the former Soviets and their KGB leader through.

North Korea, that's a unique situation. We can't allow that bloated chipmunk, to acquire ICBMs, capable of hitting the United States mainland. We have to do something about that. We should play it smart. This is a job for the CIA. Before we get into a war with North Korea, and possibly China and Russia, as a consequence, leading to a third world war. We should try to establish a network of agents in North Korea, that will "dispatch" the chipmunk.

No one wants a nuclear war over that knuckle head. China has essentially said it. They just don't want us committing a first strike. The answer is easy enough. Agree, but tell the Chinese that they'll have to assume responsibility for precluding the strike to end NK's chances of developing and using a nuclear weapon against us.

In other words, if they're going to insist we wait until the other guy lobs one at us they're not really different from someone holding you down for another guy to rob. If they want us to hold off they have to do something about it themselves. It's your backyard? Fine. Take care of your back yard.

Hey RJ, you might want to rethink the extra large font if you're going to post that length. Now onto the notions.

Anyone who bought into the idea of a rich old white guy being a rebel deserves their disappointment.

Depends on the Russians. If they're getting expansionist again and meddling in our political process they're making themselves the enemy.

Because we aren't absorbing these people against their will, for one thing. We're protecting their right to autonomy.

Yes. We have leases and the nations where we have those bases want us there, with the exception of Cuba.

You seem to think all killing is murder, to analogize. It isn't.

See, that's one way you know we aren't in the nation gobbling business. You think Russia would take something for any reason then give it back to the people? That said, our foreign policy with the Middle East has been muddled at best and incompetent as a rule. You won't get any argument from me on that point.

Probably because they're attempting to foment revolution where they aren't more directly involved in carving a piece of a country out for themselves where they never did when it was in their orbit.

NATO was formed to protect its membership against the potential for Soviet aggression, not to attempt to invade the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was busy fomenting revolution and threat, including the placement of nuclear weapons just off our southern shore.

It's still there. You have a rosy pair of lenses you're viewing the former Soviets and their KGB leader through.

No one wants a nuclear war over that knuckle head. China has essentially said it. They just don't want us committinga first strike. The answer is easy enough. Agree, but tell the Chinese that they'll have to assume responsibility for precluding the strike to end NK's chances of developing and using a nuclear weapon against us.

In other words, if they're going to insist we wait until the other guy lobs one at us they're not really different from someone holding you down for another guy to rob. If they want us to hold off they have to do something about it themselves. It's your backyard? Fine. Take care of your back yard.

It was our government that fermented the fires of civil strife, revolution, violence, in Ukraine, after the legally elected, legitimate government of Ukraine, rejected a free-trade agreement with the EU, opting for a 13 billion dollar economic aid package and free trade agreement with the Russian Federation. The EU and Washington didn't like that because they were hoping that Ukraine would eventually join NATO.

You're griping about what? Are you serious? Russia's supposed meddling in our last presidential election? Are you for real? Do you actually believe Hillary lost the election because of Russia? And even if that is correct, what moral high ground do we have to condemn Russia, for trying to influence our presidential election? We do it all the time. For example, I don't have to go any further back than Ukraine. McCain and other American government officials, went to Ukraine to cheerlead and like I mentioned earlier, ferment, fan, the fires of civil strife.

What occured in Ukraine, was an American sponsored coupd'etat. Our government funds the NGOs, like "Foundation For Democracy" and others, organizing and creating opposition, street demonstrations, against the governments, we don't like. That's just as bad, if not worse, than the Russian government releasing damaging information about Hillary.

The Hillary campaign, sent its campaign officials to meet with the Ukrainian government, to see if it had any dirt on Trump. Yet Russia releasing dirt on Hillary, to influence the American public is supposedly a (((GREAT CRIME))). When we go to another country to topple its government or sponsor a revolution, a coup, its OK, but when the Russian government releases some dirt on Hillary, OH, THOSE EVIL RUSSIANS. Lets sanction Russia..etc. Its absurd.

NATO was formed in 1949, to "stop" a Soviet invasion of western Europe and the Soviets formed the Warsaw Pact in 55, in response to NATO. NATO and the Warsaw Pact, were rivals, for almost 40 years. Just like we wouldn't like it if Mexico or/and Canada were joining the "Warsaw Pact", and deploying missiles on its borders with our country, they don't want us spreading NATO into their neighborhood/region of the world/sphere of influence, namely Eastern Europe and deploying missiles on their border.

We would be incensed and declaring war on Russia, Mexico, and Canada. We wouldn't allow that. We can supposedly do it to Russia, but of course, they can't do it to us. There's a clear double standard there. And yes, I know the Warsaw Pact, doesn't exist anymore. I'm using that as an example, an illustration.

As far as the Soviets deploying or trying to deploy missiles in Cuba. We had missiles in Turkey at the time, and that's what led to the Soviet Union, trying to deploy missiles 90 miles south of Key West. We did it to them, and they did it to us. We took our missiles out of Turkey and the Russians stopped their effort to deploy missiles in Cuba.

As far as Cuba, we got rid of Batista, replacing him with Fidel Castro. The US government armed Castro and his ragtag communist guerillas, when they were fighting the Cuban government in the Sierra Madre mountains. They were receiving arms, food, medicine, sent from a secret US government CIA airstrip in South Florida. All of this information has been declassified and released to the public through the Freedom Of Information Act. After Fidel took power, he turned on his American handlers, biting the hand that armed and fed him, when he was in the jungle, fighting the Cuban government. He went with the Soviets.

That's called "blowback". The unintended consequences, of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, especially when that meddling involves, violence. War. When we arm one faction vs another, to eliminate a government, forcing "regime change", that almost always makes the situation worse. Worse conditions, that existed before we intervened and tried to "fix" things through, fermenting violence, the force of arms, invading other countries..etc.

The reason we expanded NATO into Eastern Europe, was to weaken and surround Russia, militarily, economically..etc. It's not to stop a Russian invasion of Eastern Europe or Eastern European migration to western Europe. The migration we see now from the Muslim world is due to all of the violence, civil strife, that our foreign policy has created in Iraq, Libya and Syria. We create the conditions for refugees, and when those refugees seek safety in Europe or America, we gripe about how backward the Muslims are, and how they can't supposedly manage their own countries. Well, let's stop trying to "fix" and "manage" their countries and perhaps they'll be able to live a better life in their own countries. We screw up their country, and when they come to ours, we cry "foul!" and do everything possible to demonize, demean and dehumanize them, when all they're doing is trying to survive.

Don't do unto others, what you don't want done to you. Americans who push for American interventionism abroad and regime change, are part of the problem.

Last edited by RealityJerk; August 14th, 2017 at 04:43 PM.
Reason: Typos