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<br />I'm having major problems with translating this passage. I've highlighted the difficult parts in red, and also numbered each sentence to make it easier to refer to.<br /><br /><br />1. Apollo et Diana erant liberi Latonae.<br />Apollo and Diana were children of Latona.<br /><br /><br />2.Iis Thebani sacra crebra parabant.<br />These Thebans prepared frequent sacrifices.<br /> -- or? --<br />Thebans prepared frequent sacrifices to/for them. <br /><br />I wasn't sure whether "Iis" goes with the noun right after it, or whether it gets punted to the end of the sentence.<br /><br /><br />3. Oppidani amabant Latonam et liberos eius.<br />The townspeople loved Latona and her children<br /><br /><br />4.Id superbae reginae erat molestum.<br />This was troublesome to the proud queen.<br /><br />I know that Id is neuter, and either NOM or ACC. I had a hard time trying to figure it out, whether it means: this/that, he/she/it, or him/her/it. I eventually decided that a generic "this" seemed to fit better.<br /><br /><br />5."Cur," inquit, "Latonae et liberis sacra paratis?<br />"Why?" said the queen, "(are) sacrifices prepared for Latona and the children?"<br /><br />I can't figure out this entire sentence. Is there a verb? Or is it implied? I added the "are" to plug the "hole". I figure that Latonae and liberis are DAT. Paratis is the DAT or ABL of paratus which means prepared. <br /><br /><br />6. Duos liberos habet Latona; quattuordecim habeo ego.<br />Latona has two children; I have fourteen.<br /><br /><br />7. Ubi sunt mea sacra?"<br />Where are my sacrifices?"<br /><br />Should sacra translate to "offerings" instead of "sacrifices"? When I use the word "sacrifices", I imagine someone being killed as a sacrifice. <br /><br /><br />8. Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br />Latona calls her children with angry words.<br /><br />Verbis is the ABL of verbum. Where does Iis fit in? It must either be DAT or ABL to mean: to/for them, with/from/etc them. I just can't figure out how it fits into the sentence.<br /><br /><br />9. Ad eam volant Apollo Dianaque et sagittis suis miseros liberos reginae superbae delent.<br />Apollo and Diana call to eam and destroy the wretched children of the proud queen with their arrows.<br /><br />I'm not sure what eam means. I don't think we've learned that word, and I can't find the word in my dictionary. I'm guessing that the preposition ad goes with it.<br /><br /><br />10. Niobe, nuper laeta, nunc mesera, sedet apud liberos interfectos et cum perpetuis lacrimis eos desiderat.<br />Niobe, recently happy, now wretched, sits among the slain children and longs for them with perpetual tears.<br /><br /><br /><br />

To start with, my apologies - I can't seem to "do color" or _anything_ fancy. I'll indicate my comments with double asterisks (**).<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br />Quote from mariek:<br />I'm having major problems with translating this passage. I've highlighted the difficult parts in red, and also numbered each sentence to make it easier to refer to.<br /><br /><br />1. Apollo et Diana erant liberi Latonae.<br />Apollo and Diana were children of Latona.<br /><br />** Great. (or Latona's children)<br /><br /><br />2. Iis Thebani sacra crebra parabant.<br />These Thebans prepared frequent sacrifices.<br /> -- or? --<br />Thebans prepared frequent sacrifices to/for them.<br /><br />I wasn't sure whether "Iis" goes with the noun right after it, or whether it gets punted to the end of the sentence.<br /><br />** Iis/Eis = Dat/Abl pl. -- "Thebans prepared frequent sacrifices to/for them." Optime.<br /><br />** It "goes" wherever gramatically correct using a dat/abl representation.<br /><br />** What were prepared (acc) were sacrifices. Who/What they were prepared for = eis (them).<br /><br />3. Oppidani amabant Latonam et liberos eius.<br />The townspeople loved Latona and her children.<br /><br />** imperfect is often better rendered as <br /><br /> were loving<br /> used to love <br /> kept on loving<br /><br />** The idea is background information happening in the past which does not indicate an end to the action but rather its continuity or repetition in the past.<br /><br />4. Id superbae reginae erat molestum.<br />This was troublesome to the proud queen.<br /><br />I know that Id is neuter, and either NOM or ACC. I had a hard time trying to figure it out, whether it means: this/that, he/she/it, or him/her/it. I eventually decided that a generic "this" seemed to fit better.<br /><br />** You've got the right idea for its use as a PN, but it is also used as an adj. -- this, that, these, those. It's not really too demonstrative like hic (this one here) or ille (that one there). It usually just refers back to something previously mentioned or used to clarify gender or number.<br /><br />5. "Cur," inquit, "Latonae et liberis sacra paratis?<br />"Why?" said the queen, "(are) sacrifices prepared for Latona and the children?"<br /><br />I can't figure out this entire sentence. Is there a verb? Or is it implied? I added the "are" to plug the "hole". I figure that Latonae and liberis are DAT. Paratis is the DAT or ABL of paratus which means prepared.<br /><br />** paro, parare, paravi, paratum -- what person/tense ending is -tis? (You're thinking of the participle turned adjective.)<br /><br />** You've got the dat. OK.<br /><br />6. Duos liberos habet Latona; quattuordecim habeo ego.<br />Latona has two children; I have fourteen.<br /><br />** Optime.<br /><br /><br />7. Ubi sunt mea sacra?"<br />Where are my sacrifices?"<br /><br />Should sacra translate to "offerings" instead of "sacrifices"? When I use the word "sacrifices", I imagine someone being killed as a sacrifice.<br /><br />** "Sacra" in its most general terms means anything offered to a god/the gods which causes a "sacrifice" (loss) to the owner of what is given. If you give a goat, then it's killed; if you give grain, I guess it's killed too, but we don't often think about that.<br /><br /><br />8. Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br />Latona calls her children with angry words.<br /><br />Verbis is the ABL of verbum. Where does Iis fit in? It must either be DAT or ABL to mean: to/for them, with/from/etc them. I just can't figure out how it fits into the sentence.<br /><br />** Iis/Eis = dat/abl, pl -- here its an adj.: these those to agree with verbis.<br /><br />** irata -- check the ending -- can this agree with irata (N/S/F)?<br /><br /><br />9. Ad eam volant Apollo Dianaque et sagittis suis miseros liberos reginae superbae delent.<br />Apollo and Diana call to eam and destroy the wretched children of the proud queen with their arrows.<br /><br />I'm not sure what eam means. I don't think we've learned that word, and I can't find the word in my dictionary. I'm guessing that the preposition ad goes with it.<br /><br />** What a depressing sentence! Yuck!<br />** Anyway, let's start with "volant" -- volo doesn't mean call. Do you remember its basic meaning? I bet so. Now try again.<br />** eam is a form of is, ea, id -- regular ending! -am --> what's the case, no. & gender (& therefore use & trans.?)<br /><br /><br />10. Niobe, nuper laeta, nunc mesera, sedet apud liberos interfectos et cum perpetuis lacrimis eos desiderat.<br />Niobe, recently happy, now wretched, sits among the slain children and longs for them with perpetual tears.<br /><br />** Optime! (I'd say "her slain children" -- that would be obvious in Latin, but we're more wordy in English.)<br /><br />Did you get the idea that she is now a "weeping stone" (as the myth books put it)?<br /><br />Questions/comments?<br /><br />Magistra

<br />Thank you, Magistra, for your help, and for your patience and time to answer my questions and explain everything to me. I'm getting a better understanding of how to read and translate Latin! I'm very excited by every bit of progress I make. <br /><br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=9]<br />8. Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br />Latona calls her children with angry words.<br /><br />Verbis is the ABL of verbum. Where does Iis fit in? It must either be DAT or ABL to mean: to/for them, with/from/etc them. I just can't figure out how it fits into the sentence.<br /><br />** Iis/Eis = dat/abl, pl -- here its an adj.: these those to agree with verbis.<br /><br />** irata -- check the ending -- can this agree with irata (N/S/F)?[/face][/size]<br /><br /><br />Sigh... I have a hard time with figuring out all those is/ea/id variations.<br /><br />In that case, the sentence should read: Latona calls her children with these angry words.<br /><br /><br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=9]<br />9. Ad eam volant Apollo Dianaque et sagittis suis miseros liberos reginae superbae delent.<br />Apollo and Diana call to eam and destroy the wretched children of the proud queen with their arrows.<br /><br />I'm not sure what eam means. I don't think we've learned that word, and I can't find the word in my dictionary. I'm guessing that the preposition ad goes with it.<br /><br />** What a depressing sentence! Yuck!<br />** Anyway, let's start with "volant" -- volo doesn't mean call. Do you remember its basic meaning? I bet so. Now try again.<br />** eam is a form of is, ea, id -- regular ending! -am --> what's the case, no. & gender (& therefore use & trans.?) [/face][/size]<br /><br /><br />Oh! I see my error. Volant -> from volare, to fly -> they fly.<br /><br />Ah... I see how I went wrong with eam. I transcribed it incorrectly into my notes as eum >:(.<br />Eam --> ACC of ea (fem sing), him/her/it.<br />And ad takes the ACC! <br /><br />So now I think the sentence should read:<br />Apollo and Diana fly to her, and destroy the wretched children of the proud queen with their arrows.<br /><br /><br />[face=SPIonic][size=18=9]Did you get the idea that she is now a "weeping stone" (as the myth books put it)?[/face][/size]<br /><br /><br />No, that didn't cross my mind. But then, I'm unfamiliar with the story and this is the first time I've heard of it. I take it that turning her into a "weeping stone" was something Latona did after the children were killed?<br />

8. Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br />Latona calls her children with angry words.<br /><br />Verbis is the ABL of verbum. Where does Iis fit in? It must either be DAT or ABL to mean: to/for them, with/from/etc them. I just can't figure out how it fits into the sentence.<br /><br />** Iis/Eis = dat/abl, pl -- here its an adj.: these those to agree with verbis.<br /><br />** irata -- check the ending -- can this agree with irata (N/S/F)?<br /><br /><br />Sigh... I have a hard time with figuring out all those is/ea/id variations.<br /><br />In that case, the sentence should read: Latona calls her children with these angry words.<br /><br />Not quite. Think about the ending of irata and what it agrees with.

<br />Back to the drawing board...<br /><br />Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br /><br />Latona = subject (NOM S)<br />vocat = call (3rd Pres Sing)<br />liberos suos = her children (ACC PL)<br />verbis = words (DAT or ABL, plur)<br /><br />Irata is a feminine adjective. I know that it can't be ABL S of irata because there is no macron over the last "a" (in the book). So the only other way to get -a would be the NOM PL or ACC PL of iratum (neuter).<br /><br />Now irata (NOM PL) does not agree with Latona (NOM S).<br />liberos suos and irata are both ACC PL but liberos is masculine, while irata is neuter. So that's not right either!<br /><br />Oh.... I think I've got it! Irata agrees with Latona! Both are NOM Singular & Feminine.<br /><br />Angry Latona calls her children with these words.<br /><br />It seems so obvious now, I can kick myself!<br /><br />

Quote:<br />Try an ablative of cause for 'iis verbis'<br /><br />Ingrid<br /><br /><br />Exactly!! I wasn't following the story line, just the grammar of each sentence. (Ablative has soooo many posibilities.) The chiasmus at the beginning of the senence really gives it away.<br /><br />Magistra

I'll second that! <br /><br />Just reading it then (forgot about Niobe and Her Children it's so long ago!), I rendered "Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat" as "Latona, angry because of these words, calls her (own) children"<br /><br />But then again whenever I see an ablative I think cause I should stop I just likes ablativeses of cause <br /><br />oh and ad eam is towards her (may have been answered not reading this beef of a thread!!)<br /><br />

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3340 date=1060530874]<br />The chiasmus at the beginning of the senence really gives it away.[/quote]<br /><br />What is a "chiasmus"? I've never heard of that before. <br />

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3347 date=1060532643]<br />Just reading it then (forgot about Niobe and Her Children it's so long ago!), I rendered "Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat" as "Latona, angry because of these words, calls her (own) children"[/quote]<br /><br />You must be a quick study, you learn things very fast and you also retain the concepts.<br /><br />I'll have to do what you do ... see an ablative and ask myself whether it is an ablative of cause. <br />

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3350 date=1060538040]<br />[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3306 date=1060503808]<br />Try an ablative of cause for 'iis verbis'[/quote]<br /><br /><br />Latona iis verbis irata liberos suos vocat.<br /><br />An ablative of cause, hmmm... so then "Latona, angry by these words, call her children.<br /><br />Does this mean that the word irata is the Ablative case? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />No, the word irata is a nominative, the same case as Latona.<br />Latona, angry --> Latona = angry.<br /><br />being angry is the result of 'these words', i.e. 'these words' is the cause, so they go in the ablative.<br /><br />I've the same sort of problem with finitimus, I'm always struggling with the cases there .<br /><br />Ingrid

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3359 date=1060540638]<br />I've the same sort of problem with finitimus, I'm always struggling with the cases there .<br /><br />Ingrid<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I also! <br /><br />mariek Niobe and her Children is a big step from "filia agricolae gallinas ad cenam vocat"! I was thrown off initially by the "iis" - personally I can only quickly decipher the meaning of "eis" and "ei" rather than "iis" and "ii" (I mean what the hell!)<br /><br />Still this story is nowhere near as good as "THE BOYS: MARCUS, SEXTUS, QUINTUS et. al" Dialogues.<br /><br />Might "et al" mean "et alii" and others?

Episcopus:<br />haha yes latin does that frequently!<br />I know not wherefore but it sounds 'right' in this language<br /><br /><br />Actually, *Latin* doesn't do that. The *authors* do -- for a reason.<br />I believe D'Ooge may introduce it sort of early so that students may not be so perplexed when they encounter it in poetry.<br /><br />Have you checked out chiasmus.com?<br /><br />Chiasmus is not just used in Latin.<br /><br />Magistra

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3365 date=1060542813]<br />I was thrown off initially by the "iis" - personally I can only quickly decipher the meaning of "eis" and "ei" rather than "iis" and "ii" [/quote]<br /><br />Both of them throw me off!<br /><br />I've transcribed (wrongly too, but I've corrected this) the is/ea/id chart in #114 Pg49 into my notes. I can easily look them up in this chart. One of my difficulties is distinguishing the demonstrative pronouns/adjectives and personal pronouns.<br />

<br />Still this story is nowhere near as good as "THE BOYS: MARCUS, SEXTUS, QUINTUS et. al" Dialogues.

<br /><br />Oh, I don't know about that. The story about Niobe and her Children wasn't so bad, although the ending was rather sad. <br />

[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3359 date=1060540638]<br />No, the word irata is a nominative, the same case as Latona.<br />Latona, angry --> Latona = angry.<br /><br />being angry is the result of 'these words', i.e. 'these words' is the cause, so they go in the ablative. [/quote]<br /><br />Ugh, it's all so confusing! I think part of the difficulty was how irata was so far removed from Latona. <br /><br />Tell me, do you look at the sentence and "know" automatically where all the pieces should fall? Does it someday become much easier? <br />

[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3367 date=1060543241]<br />A chiasmus is a literary device where the author uses a criss-crossed word pattern (ABBA).<br />A good website is http://www.chiasmus.com/ [/quote]<br /><br />Oh neato! It seems that chiasmus is more a switching around of the same word, same phrase, or same sound. <br /><br />I guess you meant to apply chiasmus to the sentence because of the switching of similar sounds which result in the ABBA pattern.<br /><br />That's very clever, but it's not something that is very obvious to me. I don't think I'd recognize this in other sentences I encounter unless it's pointed out to me.<br /><br />

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3466 date=1060588609]<br /><br />Ugh, it's all so confusing! I think part of the difficulty was how irata was so far removed from Latona. <br /><br />* I think sentence structure in Latin often takes the place of punctuation marks. Latona irata embraces iis verbis, to show that iis verbis belongs to Latona, and not to the children. But I may be imagining this .<br /><br /><br />Tell me, do you look at the sentence and "know" automatically where all the pieces should fall? Does it someday become much easier? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Well, you move on to more difficult texts, so it doesn't really become easier at first . But I'm sure it will come in time. I try hard to read from left to right, training myself to predict what the sentence could be like when I read it. But then, I have studied Latin before at the level of reading (ah well, translating) Caesar, so my aims are different. <br /><br />Ingrid

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3466 date=1060588609]<br />[quote author=ingrid70 link=board=3;threadid=422;start=0#3359 date=1060540638]<br /><br />Tell me, do you look at the sentence and "know" automatically where all the pieces should fall? Does it someday become much easier? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Eventually it should come to you (yes I do know where the words should fall quite easily ). The only problem then is that you are no longer reading these sentences, but ones that are confusing to a higher level of knowledge! Until you know all the fundamentals and common occurrences, you will always be having trouble with something, but you will be able to overcome confusion more easily as well, and the amount of total knowledge you have will be vast [/quote]

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3472 date=1060590926]<br />Until you know all the fundamentals and common occurrences, you will always be having trouble with something, but you will be able to overcome confusion more easily as well, and the amount of total knowledge you have will be vast <br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />And until then, there's always Textkit! <br /><br />Keesa<br />

Moerus scripsit:<br />4. Id superbae reginae erat molestum.<br />This was troublesome to the proud queen.<br /><br />'id' is here no adjective like someone said before, but a pronoun. We have an accusative neuter sing. of 'is ea id' with a genetivus partitivus! This is classical prose, but a rare<br />one. It is the same as saying; 'Superbia reginae molestum erat.'<br /><br />Translation literally; This of the proud of the queen was troublesome.<br /><br /><br /><br />I agree with the original translation: to the proud queen.<br /> -ae is dative (to/for)<br /><br />Magistra<br /><br /> <br /><br />

Id refers to the fact that Latona gets more sacrifices than queen Niobe. This can only be 'molestum' to queen Niobe, so superbae reginae is dat.<br /><br />If one could not do without a gen.part., it could only have been 'id deae' or 'id Latonae: 'this (feature) of the godess/Latona'.<br /><br />In 'superbia ... molestum erat' shouldn't it have been 'molesta'?<br /><br />Ptolemaios

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3472 date=1060590926]<br />Until you know all the fundamentals and common occurrences, you will always be having trouble with something, but you will be able to overcome confusion more easily as well, and the amount of total knowledge you have will be vast [/quote]<br /><br />I am looking forward to the day when I will have a vast knowledge of Latin. At this rate, I will have grey hairs and walk with a cane when this happens... <br /><br />Need more time to devote to studying. Oh, how I envy students who get 3 months of summer vacation...<br />

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3522 date=1060612419]<br />mariek! you do know the boys dialogues!<br /><br />eratisne in ludo hodie?<br />non eramus quia magister noster erat aeger<br />[/quote]<br />Oh, that one! Somehow they don't stick in my mind as vividly as the Niobe story.<br /><br />Here's a question... I don't find it unusual for people to give offerings to deities. Was it common for people to give offerings to kings and queens? Or did Niobe just want to be treated like a goddess and have offerings made to her as if she was a goddess?<br />

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=422;start=15#3846 date=1060804437]<br />Oh, that one! Somehow they don't stick in my mind as vividly as the Niobe story.<br /><br />Here's a question... I don't find it unusual for people to give offerings to deities. Was it common for people to give offerings to kings and queens? Or did Niobe just want to be treated like a goddess and have offerings made to her as if she was a goddess?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />As far as I've been able to gather thus far.... offerings to kings and queens wasn't that frequent because there weren't that many kings and queens. The Greeks went in for city-states that were ruled by councils of clumps of people, mostly (there were a few exceptions) and the Romans booted out their kings around 700 BC (and then got emperors about 700 years later.....) The Niobe story hangs around the fact that Niobe was a mite full of herself, claiming that she had more right to be worshipped than the goddess Latona due to the fact that she'd had more kids. Apparently Niobe wasn't that bright.<br /><br />And yes, over time, reading does get easier. Think about how you would have felt when faced with this exercise a month ago!<br /><br />Kilmeny

If you want to say 'these thebans' and they haven't been mentioned before, you would use hi thebani, from hic, haec, hoc (demonstrative pronouns, the come later). Is, ea, id is the determinative (?) pronoun, more or less 'the aforementioned' thebans.

I just wanted to say thanks to all who participated in this particular instance.

I've been studying D'ooge for about 2 months now and using this forum as help. This particular thread was without a doubt the best learning tool I have seen yet here. The comments were all extremelhy lucid and never was there a hint of any disdain for the OP. IMHO, this thread was the next best thing to sitting in a classroom of a top Latin studies program!
You all deserve an "Atta Boy".

That being said, I only wish there were a lot more of these threads available. So, to all of us fledglings who cant tell an ablative from Niobe, I say lets continue to post our questions. The other board members make it well worthwhile.