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Flibbertigibbet 21

Both have a rectangular meeting place, and during the meetings the normal rules of life are suspended and replaced with a special set of highly formalised and arbitrary rules, infringement of which will earn ritualised punishments from the person in charge of the meeting. Meetings begin and end at appointed times, and the participants have to wear special uniforms while attending. During the meeting, participants can only move about the meeting place in certain ways and at certain times, and there is an audience around the sides. The word of the person in charge is law, and his decisions are final, even if later shown to have been wrong. There are lots of different meeting places all over the country, and specific groups that meet in them, each with their own distinctive name and identity. Membership of these groups is a privilege only accorded to a few. The groups are organised into a hierarchical structure in which the groups compete for honours and other benefits. This whole structure is highly corrupt, especially in its upper layers, and those who run it are making a fortune. And the clincher is that one of these structures, the Football Association, was founded in 1863 at the Freemason's Arms in London.

Masonic lodge floor plan

Football pitch

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

Both have a rectangular meeting place, and during the meetings the normal rules of life are suspended and replaced with a special set of highly formalised and arbitrary rules, infringement of which will earn ritualised punishments from the person in charge of the meeting. Meetings begin and end at appointed times, and the participants have to wear special uniforms while attending. During the meeting, participants can only move about the meeting place in certain ways and at certain times, and there is an audience around the sides. The word of the person in charge is law, and his decisions are final, even if later shown to have been wrong. There are lots of different meeting places all over the country, and specific groups that meet in them, each with their own distinctive name and identity. Membership of these groups is a privilege only accorded to a few. The groups are organised into a hierarchical structure in which the groups compete for honours and other benefits. This whole structure is highly corrupt, especially in its upper layers, and those who run it are making a fortune. And the clincher is that one of these structures, the Football Association, was founded in 1863 at the Freemason's Arms in London.

Masonic lodge floor plan

Football pitch

I would really like to know where you got your information from, as it isn't entirely correct (see the bold portions).

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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MstrMsn 617

Are you saying those parts aren't correct for football, or freemasonry? Or both?

Well, not sure what the rules are over there, but over here, (not "American football" what we call soccer) doesn't totally restrict movement. Also, the head ref doesn't always get away with bad calls. And last I checked, as long as you had talent in the game, and could make the cut, you got on the team. Again, not sure if it is different in the UK.

As far as Freemasonry goes, if the Master of the Lodge is proven wrong, then he stands corrected, and will apologize if necessary. I have yet to encounter anyone undergoing "ritualised punishment" for infringing "arbitrary rules" - as you put it. Special uniforms? Lodge officers wear tuxedos and the members wear suits, unless there is a special event. To my knowledge, neither a suit nor a tux are "special uniforms".

Membership is not "a privilidge only accorded to a few". Yes, there are some restrictions, like any other private organization, but nowhere near as restrictive as you are leading people to believe.

Where is the "corruptness"? What makes them "corrupt"? How are they "making a fortune" on it?

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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Well, not sure what the rules are over there, but over here, (not "American football" what we call soccer) doesn't totally restrict movement. Also, the head ref doesn't always get away with bad calls. And last I checked, as long as you had talent in the game, and could make the cut, you got on the team. Again, not sure if it is different in the UK.

As far as Freemasonry goes, if the Master of the Lodge is proven wrong, then he stands corrected, and will apologize if necessary. I have yet to encounter anyone undergoing "ritualised punishment" for infringing "arbitrary rules" - as you put it. Special uniforms? Lodge officers wear tuxedos and the members wear suits, unless there is a special event. To my knowledge, neither a suit nor a tux are "special uniforms".

Membership is not "a privilidge only accorded to a few". Yes, there are some restrictions, like any other private organization, but nowhere near as restrictive as you are leading people to believe.

Where is the "corruptness"? What makes them "corrupt"? How are they "making a fortune" on it?

It's not so much a question of "restricting" movement, as that the movement is formalised by rules. I believe the ref does indeed get away with bad calls here, which are often shown on TV, but by then it's too late. You're right, only the talented make the cut, which is a privileged few.

The ritualised punishments should not be misunderstood to mean physical punishments, and what you describe is very much a special uniform. Since Freemasons are only a tiny minority of the general populatio, they are certainly a few.

The corruption comes with the deal they make with each other.

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

It's not so much a question of "restricting" movement, as that the movement is formalised by rules. I believe the ref does indeed get away with bad calls here, which are often shown on TV, but by then it's too late. You're right, only the talented make the cut, which is a privileged few.

The ritualised punishments should not be misunderstood to mean physical punishments, and what you describe is very much a special uniform. Since Freemasons are only a tiny minority of the general populatio, they are certainly a few.

The corruption comes with the deal they make with each other.

As to the sports... having talent and being recognized for it does not make you "priviledged". Many of the "bad calls" aren't entirely wrong. As long as they fall into the overall rules of the sport, bad calls can be made. You also have to understand that all of the refs can not see everything that is going on on the field. 3 may be watching the left side, and only 1 person sees what happened on the right side, and didn't have a totally clear look. It happens, and it's just a game, so no reason to get bothered by it, unless you are a player, and that bad call will hurt your career.

I know that the punishments aren't physical. But, I would like to know how one gets punished for breaking an "arbitrary" rule. Also, shouldn't anyone that breaks a rule be punished for it? Otherwise, do you suggest we all live in anarchy?

Since "Freemasons are only a tiny minority of the general population, they are certainly a few".... that does not make them "priviledged" either.

How is a suit or tux a "special uniform"???

What "deals" do they make with each other that causes them to be considered "corrupt"?

Also, still waiting to hear (well, read) where you got your information from.

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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As to the sports... having talent and being recognized for it does not make you "priviledged". Many of the "bad calls" aren't entirely wrong. As long as they fall into the overall rules of the sport, bad calls can be made. You also have to understand that all of the refs can not see everything that is going on on the field. 3 may be watching the left side, and only 1 person sees what happened on the right side, and didn't have a totally clear look. It happens, and it's just a game, so no reason to get bothered by it, unless you are a player, and that bad call will hurt your career.

I know that the punishments aren't physical. But, I would like to know how one gets punished for breaking an "arbitrary" rule. Also, shouldn't anyone that breaks a rule be punished for it? Otherwise, do you suggest we all live in anarchy?

Since "Freemasons are only a tiny minority of the general population, they are certainly a few".... that does not make them "priviledged" either.

How is a suit or tux a "special uniform"???

What "deals" do they make with each other that causes them to be considered "corrupt"?

Also, still waiting to hear (well, read) where you got your information from.

Much of what you say is actually agreeing with me, but saying things like "it's only a game" or "soiety needs rules" as if I somehow disagree with those statements, which I don't.

I get my info from a source very similar to Freemasonry.

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

Much of what you say is actually agreeing with me, but saying things like "it's only a game" or "soiety needs rules" as if I somehow disagree with those statements, which I don't.

I get my info from a source very similar to Freemasonry.

"A source very similar to Freemasonry" does not make it the same as Freemasonry. I have seen many college frats that were "very similar" to Freemasonry. Does that mean that I could use what happens within them to say "such and such happens in Freemasonry"? No, I can't. Why? Because they are not the same.

Even within the world of Freemasonry, things are not 100% the same. Regular Freemasonry has many differences to Prince Hall Freemasonry. "Regular" Freemasonry has many differences from "Irregular" Freemasonry (Regular - they fall under the United Grand Lodge of England, Irregular - falls under the Grand Lodge of the Orient). Then you have Free and Accepted Masons (F&AM) as well as Ancient Free and Accepted Masons (AF&AM). Both have similarities, as well as differences.

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
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"A source very similar to Freemasonry" does not make it the same as Freemasonry. I have seen many college frats that were "very similar" to Freemasonry. Does that mean that I could use what happens within them to say "such and such happens in Freemasonry"? No, I can't. Why? Because they are not the same.

Even within the world of Freemasonry, things are not 100% the same. Regular Freemasonry has many differences to Prince Hall Freemasonry. "Regular" Freemasonry has many differences from "Irregular" Freemasonry (Regular - they fall under the United Grand Lodge of England, Irregular - falls under the Grand Lodge of the Orient). Then you have Free and Accepted Masons (F&AM) as well as Ancient Free and Accepted Masons (AF&AM). Both have similarities, as well as differences.

It's actually our alumnae association, which is organised like a masonic lodge. Not a "frat" which don't really exist in England anyway as far as I know.

Yes you're right there are many different masonic orders and similar orders. But they all have certain things in common.

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

It's actually our alumnae association, which is organised like a masonic lodge. Not a "frat" which don't really exist in England anyway as far as I know.

Yes you're right there are many different masonic orders and similar orders. But they all have certain things in common.

I used frat, instead of fraternity, because I was being lazy. Yes, you have them in England.... Freemasonry is a fraternity. I'm sure there are some colleges and/or universities that have some, as well (maybe not like the ones we have here, though).

Having certain things in common, and being organised like a Masonic Lodge, doesn't mean that you can compare them.

Stating something about a group with no direct knowledge of them, based on minor similarities, is wrong. It sends the wrong message. To a person with direct knowledge of the group, it makes the person making the claims come off as ignorant or having an agenda. While I'm not claiming that you fit into either of these, one could think you do, based on the original statements.

However, you can switch out Freemasonry with Catholicism (or any religion) and basically draw the same comparrisons that your original post did (with the exception of the audience being on the sides, though it depends on how the church is set up).

Please don't take this as an attack on you. It's not. I'm just not a fan of people talking about anything that they have no direct knowledge of, unless they make the disclaimer "this is just my opinion" or "how I view this". And even then, I will try to educate them to the best of my ability.

On a side note, do you play?

Edited April 21, 2012 by MstrMsn

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

Here in the US, there are many fraternal organizations that are set up similar to the Freemasons. I would expect that to be the same all over the world, considering the fact that Freemasonry is the OLDEST Fraternal Order. So, yes, there will be similarities. But, that is where it ends. None of them have the same rules, none of them have the same requirements for membership, none of them initiation rituals, none of them have the same Oaths of Obligation, and none of them have the same reasons for being a Fraternal Order (though, with this last one, there are some reasons that are very close).

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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I used frat, instead of fraternity, because I was being lazy. Yes, you have them in England.... Freemasonry is a fraternity. I'm sure there are some colleges and/or universities that have some, as well (maybe not like the ones we have here, though).

Having certain things in common, and being organised like a Masonic Lodge, doesn't mean that you can compare them.

Stating something about a group with no direct knowledge of them, based on minor similarities, is wrong. It sends the wrong message. To a person with direct knowledge of the group, it makes the person making the claims come off as ignorant or having an agenda. While I'm not claiming that you fit into either of these, one could think you do, based on the original statements.

However, you can switch out Freemasonry with Catholicism (or any religion) and basically draw the same comparrisons that your original post did (with the exception of the audience being on the sides, though it depends on how the church is set up).

I have researched Freemasonry quite a lot and am not ignorant of it. The lodge meetings of the alumnae association, which 6th formers also attend, I happen to know are organised like a masonic lodge meeting. Except that the symbolism is different. Masons use symbology based around the Temple of Solomon and stonemason's tools, the alumnae here base their symbolism on the Holy Grail and Arthurian myth.

I know Freemasonry is a fraternity but I assumed you mean frats at universities. I'm pretty sure they don't exist in England, as I said. Everything they do is done instead, here, by the student's union.

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

I have researched Freemasonry quite a lot and am not ignorant of it. The lodge meetings of the alumnae association, which 6th formers also attend, I happen to know are organised like a masonic lodge meeting. Except that the symbolism is different. Masons use symbology based around the Temple of Solomon and stonemason's tools, the alumnae here base their symbolism on the Holy Grail and Arthurian myth.

I know Freemasonry is a fraternity but I assumed you mean frats at universities. I'm pretty sure they don't exist in England, as I said. Everything they do is done instead, here, by the student's union.

Researching Freemasonry is all well and good. However, there are many books and documentaries out there that are completely inaccurate about the Order. And without first hand experience, you really won't know which is accurate, and which isn't (except for the really crazy conspiracy nuts).

Our symbology doesn't just revolve around Solomon's Temple and tools. Many of our symbols trace back to Ancient Egypt and Greece. One appendant body of Freemasonry, called the York Rite believes that we got our beginnings from the Knights Templar. Another body, the Scottish Rite (which didn't come from Scotland) believes we came from Solomon himself, and focusses more on that fact.

Our use of stone mason tools is more of a "teaching" tool. For instance, the trowel... stone masons (called "operative" masons) used this to spread cement or mortar which units the building into one common mass; Freemasons (called "Speculative" Masons) use this as a metaphor to spread the cement of Brotherly Love, the cement that unites us.

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
― P.T. Barnam

Researching Freemasonry is all well and good. However, there are many books and documentaries out there that are completely inaccurate about the Order. And without first hand experience, you really won't know which is accurate, and which isn't (except for the really crazy conspiracy nuts).

Our symbology doesn't just revolve around Solomon's Temple and tools. Many of our symbols trace back to Ancient Egypt and Greece. One appendant body of Freemasonry, called the York Rite believes that we got our beginnings from the Knights Templar. Another body, the Scottish Rite (which didn't come from Scotland) believes we came from Solomon himself, and focusses more on that fact.

Our use of stone mason tools is more of a "teaching" tool. For instance, the trowel... stone masons (called "operative" masons) used this to spread cement or mortar which units the building into one common mass; Freemasons (called "Speculative" Masons) use this as a metaphor to spread the cement of Brotherly Love, the cement that unites us.

I can tell the wheat from the chaff in terms of sources.

When I mentioned the symbolism I was only referring to the blue lodges, other or higher orders have different symbolism, including, as you say, the Knights Templar, which is a whole other can of worms, lol.

Other interesting quasi-Masonic groups include the Golden Dawn, who practiced ritual magic. Not a Masonic order per se, but based heavily on Freemasonry they were an offshoot of a masonic order, and continued to meet in the Mark Masons' Hall in London.

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MstrMsn 617

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"If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question!"

When I mentioned the symbolism I was only referring to the blue lodges, other or higher orders have different symbolism, including, as you say, the Knights Templar, which is a whole other can of worms, lol.

Other interesting quasi-Masonic groups include the Golden Dawn, who practiced ritual magic. Not a Masonic order per se, but based heavily on Freemasonry they were an offshoot of a masonic order, and continued to meet in the Mark Masons' Hall in London.

Again, symbolism within the Blue Lodge isn't just limited to Solomon. Yes, there is a great deal of Solomon related symbols, but there is more.

However, getting back to the original post... What "deals" do they make with each other that causes them to be considered "corrupt"?

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Flibbertigibbet 21

Again, symbolism within the Blue Lodge isn't just limited to Solomon. Yes, there is a great deal of Solomon related symbols, but there is more.

However, getting back to the original post... What "deals" do they make with each other that causes them to be considered "corrupt"?

I'm not talking about the wild conspiracy theories in which Masons run the world, or control all the banks, or whatever. Just the small scale deals where a lodge, say, in some small provincial town has all the town's businessmen in it, and they do business with each other simply because they know each other, as masons. Then there's the police, some lodges in London are wholly for policemen, and when they take bungs from criminals to look the other way, their fellow masons turn a blind eye, and so on. Petty corruption, in other words, and certainly not as an organised policy of Grand Lodge or anything.

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MstrMsn 617

I'm not talking about the wild conspiracy theories in which Masons run the world, or control all the banks, or whatever. Just the small scale deals where a lodge, say, in some small provincial town has all the town's businessmen in it, and they do business with each other simply because they know each other, as masons. Then there's the police, some lodges in London are wholly for policemen, and when they take bungs from criminals to look the other way, their fellow masons turn a blind eye, and so on. Petty corruption, in other words, and certainly not as an organised policy of Grand Lodge or anything.

That can be said of any group. However, if a fellow Mason was known to be corrupt (especially breaking the law), that could and usually would get them expelled from the Order. Now, if the entire Lodge were in on it, anyone from another Lodge that found out (or anyone from Grand Lodge), it would be reported to GL, and an investigation would be conducted, and the Lodge would lose it's charter.

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
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That can be said of any group. However, if a fellow Mason was known to be corrupt (especially breaking the law), that could and usually would get them expelled from the Order. Now, if the entire Lodge were in on it, anyone from another Lodge that found out (or anyone from Grand Lodge), it would be reported to GL, and an investigation would be conducted, and the Lodge would lose it's charter.

I'm sure that's what the rules say, and I'm sure they might do it too. But the petty corruption still goes on.

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Rafterman 6,503

Both have a rectangular meeting place, and during the meetings the normal rules of life are suspended and replaced with a special set of highly formalised and arbitrary rules, infringement of which will earn ritualised punishments from the person in charge of the meeting. Meetings begin and end at appointed times, and the participants have to wear special uniforms while attending. During the meeting, participants can only move about the meeting place in certain ways and at certain times, and there is an audience around the sides. The word of the person in charge is law, and his decisions are final, even if later shown to have been wrong. There are lots of different meeting places all over the country, and specific groups that meet in them, each with their own distinctive name and identity. Membership of these groups is a privilege only accorded to a few. The groups are organised into a hierarchical structure in which the groups compete for honours and other benefits. This whole structure is highly corrupt, especially in its upper layers, and those who run it are making a fortune. And the clincher is that one of these structures, the Football Association, was founded in 1863 at the Freemason's Arms in London.

Masonic lodge floor plan

Football pitch

That's not football.

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Travelling Man 169

Well, to start with, your basic premise is bad, because Greek Fraternities are thriving in Universities all over the UK. Secondly, just because your alumni association has a fraternal bent to their meetings, this does NOT mean that they are Masonic in origin, meaning or appearance. You say you can "tell the chaff from the wheat" - but what sources do you use so WE can look at them as well to see if they are accurate, unbiased and legitimate - or if they are misleading you.

Besides, being female, you aren't going to be privy to legitimate Masonic meetings or what goes on inside the Lodge outside of reading about it... and reading about a subject does not make one an expert.

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Flibbertigibbet 21

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“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
― P.T. Barnam

Well, to start with, your basic premise is bad, because Greek Fraternities are thriving in Universities all over the UK. Secondly, just because your alumni association has a fraternal bent to their meetings, this does NOT mean that they are Masonic in origin, meaning or appearance. You say you can "tell the chaff from the wheat" - but what sources do you use so WE can look at them as well to see if they are accurate, unbiased and legitimate - or if they are misleading you.

Besides, being female, you aren't going to be privy to legitimate Masonic meetings or what goes on inside the Lodge outside of reading about it... and reading about a subject does not make one an expert.

I'm willing to be corrected, so please tell me the name of any university in the UK that has a fraternity.

There are female masonic orders, or don't you count them as legitimate?