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Another One Bites theDust

Remember how they told us we couldn’t police our own borders and that immigrants and terrorists would flood in? Thrill to the memory of Better Together warning we couldn’t cope without the British Border Agency. Shiver with excitement at the thought of illegal immigrants streaming into unmanned Scottish ports and running up the beaches. And worse – some of them would make their way into England… Thank God we avoided that catastrophe, eh? Otherwise there might be hordes of illegals massing on the frontier, jumping on to lorries and risking their lives to seek a new home in the land that is so clever it makes Michelle Mone a legislator.

So many of Blair McDougall’s sensible warnings have come true. Nearly a year on not a single bank has threatened to leave Britain. Well, if you exclude HSBC, the country’s biggest bank, currently eyeing a move to Hong Kong. Oh, and Deutsche Bank is planning to do the same if the UK leaves the EU. And so are American banks who think Ireland is a better option. But, hey there’s still good old RBS whose future is secure, if you don’t count the Treasury selling it off at a loss.

And how accurate was the prediction of security within a strong economy where resources are pooled and risks shared. It’s pretty clear now that resources ARE pulled rather than pooled – to London and the south-east and that risks ARE shared by anyone on disability benefits or in-work support. Still, the government has respected their promise to deliver substantial and extensive devolution and the Scotland Bill with no amendments looks just like federalism, doesn’t it? Meantime a vacuous self-publicist is ‘elevated’ to the Second Chamber along with the shadowy figure who devised the poll tax (the dearth of elected MPs is a bit of a nuisance) while one of Labour’s finest becomes a Harry Enfield sketch bitching about national politics with two hookers while snorting coke from their bosoms as he wears their bra.

Take a bow, No voters.

And if you’re a Labour No voter who jeered at the Nats and hugged your Tory campaign pals when the chance to break free was lost, know that you’ll always have a special place in the memory of the nation – for wilfully robbing us of national dignity and progressive politics and as a bonus extra, destroyed your own party.

I think Nicola wants the rest of us to put a hand out and say Never mind –these things happen. She has to govern for all of Scotland and can only allow her frustrations to emerge in hot debate – all aimed at political opponents. Meantime the game is about waiting, waiting for the right moment to move and that sure ain’t anytime soon. I am patient because I’ve been waiting all my life and can wait longer, knowing that if it doesn’t come, I go to the grave believing. And instead of watching a dream drift off to a far horizon, today, because of Tory ineptitude I can’t just imagine independence, I can smell it. I don’t want to start a storm of controversy in the BBC Scotland newsroom but I believe a second referendum is inevitable and will come within 20 years, perhaps surprisingly quickly. The point is that when the time is right, we will know. The error is to be restless to move too soon.

But is it the right approach to pretend nobody was hurt by last year’s vote and swallow our feelings as if voting against your own country’s independence was a normal and forgivable act? Andrew Wilson, for example writes at the weekend… ‘Above all else, stay positive, respectful of opponents’ views and persuade gently rather than with disbelieving rancour…’ (Not sure exactly how this sentiment ties in with his support for his colleague and Daily Mail vituperation exponent Chris Deerin who comes across as Scotland’s very own Alan B’stard)

Still, you can see the logic of not blaming No voters for the mess we’re in now, denying our kids their deserved future and consigning another generation to a penurious lifestyle, can’t you? We win them over by offering them the hand of friendship. Trouble is, I want to strangle them. And isn’t that the truth…every time you see pipsqueak Mundell ‘speaking for the nation’ or motormouth Murray pretending he voted against when he abstained or intellectual crook Carmichael bluffing it out…don’t you want to scream at the fearties and the disparaging Britnats who voted against Scotland as their nation of choice? I bloody do.

I always distinguish between an individual as a human being and his political personality so that I can argue with the latter while respecting or liking the former. (This theory is tested sorely with Brian Wilson) But is it humanly possible or even reasonable to put this sense of betrayal to one side and carry on as if nothing had changed? Politics, like a car, needs a motor and reaction is the spark plug, so you react (to the thought perhaps of policy designed to impoverish children) and you channel that emotion into politics. How can there not be a sense of grievance when increased poverty and social division are the driving force of UK politics – a politics we could have avoided but the majority chose to embrace. Somebody should have a word with those desperate folk at Calais jumping at trucks and tell them the truth about this unprincipled country.

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104 thoughts on “Another One Bites theDust”

I am so glad you wrote this because it is exactly how I have been feeling.

The thought that at the very least some people voted to continue (and lets be honest here it wasn’t just to continue but to endorse and to likely make worse) the appalling child poverty figures this Union has bequeathed us with will forever eat away at me.

Any other (valid) reasons aside I just still do not understand how anyone can vote for their country to not be independent.

My best friend voted No. Honestly, as a shining warning as to why votes for women was a thoroughly bad idea, she takes the gold medal. But I just have to swallow the ever-present desire to throttle her.

Derek, once again you have summed things up perfectly. I sincerely believe that we will be independent within the next ten years but not as a case of the YESSERS rushing and pushing for a second referendum but as a result of never ending tory cruelty and the complete implosion of the labour party in Scotland. Please keep up the excellent work, its very much needed.

And where are the other architects and exponents of Better Togethet?
Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Blair McDougall (and come to think about it Blair Jenkins from the ‘official’ Yes Campaign)
All conspicuous by their absence.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t JK cite her reasons for supporting Better Together, and funding Labour as bringing social justice and integrity to the whole of the UK.
Why is she not whipping out her cheque book and producing a massive cheque for the Corbyn campaign?

We all need to at times, bloody frustrating as it is! Personally, I try to remain positive, glass-half full etc, but I admit at times my frustration also gets the better of me. Rather than focus on those NO voters that let us and Scotland down, I try to think of those other people, equally frightened, and terrorised by the MSM, who still had the courage to go out and vote YES last year. They voted for something. I am so proud of them – they were also afraid, especially the 30% of those aged >65 who still had the guts to go for it. For them, if nothing else, it is worth fighting on.

It’s also worth remembering that many people showed considerable courage by voted SNP on May 7th. It may be hard to believe, but many of those were NO voters – the NO voters, in fact that we still have to win over to achieve independence. Be nice to them, whether they deserve it or not. They are not all unionists. Some of them just haven’t completed the journey to YES yet. We all get there in the end. 🙂

If Scotland waits another twenty years it will be easy to obtain Independence because there will be nothing left . Scotland will have been raped exactly like every other colony the British have controlled and since been kicked out of. Independence must come much sooner if we are to have any chance of recovering from the damage about to be inflicted upon us. But, as you say…Thanks a bunch NO voters, except if you fell for the lies, If so, now’s your chance to put things right

It is very difficult to remain polite in the company of the craven No voting toadies who did Scotland down last year yet it is important that we do. Even the most mild criticism of the Britnat stance produces a ridiculously incoherent intemperate response. However when in comes to counting votes there were, and apparently still are, more willing to stick with the UK despite its very many faults and absurdities rather than stand up and take responsibility for Scotland as an independent country. We have time on our side and I would not be fazed if there was a 10 year gap until Indyref#2 although it may come quicker if Westminster continues to implode at the pace it has been doing recently. A 10 year gap would remove a lot of the current older generation from the voter’s roll, the great majority of whom apparently voted against Scotland. It would also give time for better policies on currency, tax and spend to be worked out, all of which were definite weak points in the YES campaign. However, No voters are there to be persuaded. Convert 1 out of every 11 No voters, hold on to Indyref#1 YES voters and you are just about over the line.

I get annoyed about this continued nonsense about our position on currency. It was the right position and it was attacked furiously because it was the right position. It would have been a transitional position and could have beenc hanged at any point after independence but it would have provided essential stability in the initial stages of a new state. The economic experts who decided this was the best option of the four they described new exactly what they were doing. A Scotland launching into independence with a new currency would have seen the economic vultures hovering over it. It quite probably would have suffered huge devaluation almost immediately from any point we tried to tie it to.

One of the tricks of our opponents is to persuade us that we made mistakes and encourage us to attack each other on that basis.

A shared Sterling was far too stable for our enemies to allow it to survive

And can someone tell me why Isle of Man with a population of 85,500, and roughly the size of Jura, managed to survive the financial crisis in 2008, using their own currency the Manx£, a de facto currency union with the UK£?

“But is it humanly possible or even reasonable to put this sense of betrayal to one side and carry on as if nothing had changed?”

The short answer is no. We’re human, we’re fallible, we feel, and all the logic, good intentions and mature acceptance in the world cannot wash away the feelings of disbelief, frustrated rage, national shame, trepidation and outright heartfelt grief many of us experienced on the morning of September 19th, 2014. Every instinct screamed at me throughout the entire referendum debate that worse was yet to come from Westminster’s austerity legislation, that the misleading and downright false statements and claims made through project fear demonstrated the very worst of an already debased political system.

Does it give me any pleasure that not only were we in the right cause, but right about so many of our own predictions? No, it does not. It simply brings home the near criminal waste of the opportunity we were granted. In fact I simply feel the loss all over again. Do I feel any vindication as each our worst fears during that period come to pass? No, I’m bloody terrified, because this is just the beginning.

The long answer though, is yes we must, we have to get past all of the above and hold that hand out. Because we are going to need every single vote, every single soul we can get our hands on if we are to heal the damage done to our wee country and its communities. Not just the hugely divisive societal carnage caused by those uncaring and frankly downright evil pricks who ran the government/BT campaign, but the long lasting economic damage and its collateral long term fallout for every community in Scotland.

Another chance will come and I’d hazard within the next five to ten years at the current rate of events and decay of the political ties that bind. And I for one, do not wish to see another opportunity wasted and more people’s lives consigned to the establishment trash heap.

Some folk will never change their minds Eileen, I don’t think there’s any doubt of that. How and ever there are voters out there were ‘independence, not yet’ or ‘independence but we’re not quite ready’, or indeed ‘independence maybe, but one more shot at devo max’ and they are the ones we should be actively seeking out and engaging with.

Derek and macart763, well said both of you. Some part of me can forgive the fear that some had regarding independence but it was down to ignorance and that i find hard to forgive. But what really is depressing me is the fact that even now many of the ‘no’ voters are still as ignorant of the political landscape and the choices that we have as they were then. I work in a professional office and from the day of the Referendum to date not a cheep have i heard about Scotland’s plight or this abomination of a Tory government. Are people shy? Do they not care? The disinterest astounds, dismays and depresses me. Personally, I have become a political ‘nerd’ since indyref 1 much more so than I was before. I cannot, and never will, understand or forgive those who are so disinterested in their country that they will not engage with the situation but would rather continue to accept the tyranny of Westminster. Given that many will look no further than MSM for their information THE single most important requirement as we go forward is a voice in the truly public domain. Control of our broadcasting is crucial- at least it would be a start. We have to counter the negativity and take a positive and persuasive debate straight to the people who will not seek answers for themselves.

Ignorance in a free and literate country is a choice. You cannot have choice without responsibility.

I think it is only fair to say that those who voted No have to accept responsibility for whatever happens to the people of Scotland in coming years.

It’s less than a year since they led us into this potential societal disaster and they cannot abdicate their share of responsibility for what is to come when it was clear to anyone with half an eye to see, half an ear to listen and half a brain to think that this is exactly what would happen if we voted to remain No.

“The error is …. to move too soon”. It is also by far the most damaging error, and it is needless. I appreciate that is difficult to move from a political perspective (“a week is a long time in politics’) to a historical perspective (we are not just changing the government); but the purpose, in the end, is to prevail.

Bateman, I remember your little “We’re Going To Win” post before the referendum, in which you were so magnanimously reaching out to no voters, even apologising to any of those who you offended. Yet now we see such behaviour was only predicated on your own side merrily romping home. You couldn’t possibly envisage the prospect of defeat, nor could you have imagined that your opponents might have felt exactly as you feel right now. And now that you’ve lost, magnanimity goes out of the window. How amusing.

What if we Europeans had enlisted the assistance of the US of A in bombing Mexico and Central American states into a situation of complete failure and then disappeared back home leaving them to deal with the human tidal wave trying to cross their border.
Wouldn’t happen of course,the US of A wouldn’t stand for it.
So,Cameron’s chickens coming home to roost and this is just the start for consequences of shallow short term thinking by the Tory neanderthals (and that includes those who masquerade as socialists in the British Labour party).

Circumstances have changed for the better: 56 SNP MPs, and a talented bunch.

Meanwhile,Carmichael under scrutiny over Memogate, and Mundell his no2 unaware? A councillor for an English county elevated to the H of L to support Mundell at the Scotland Office. Mundell being investigated over expenses. Mundell has to “backdoor” the opening of a food bank. 2 shoogly pegs.
Ms Mone appointed to the H of L is just so absolutely daft. Paedofiles investigations at Westminster. Westminster is under scrutiny as never before. Labour abstentions, and casting votes without attending the debate,

N Sea oil and gas in jeopardy we were being told last month, this month production

For how long will Scotland people, past Yes and No voters tolerate the farce? A strong Snp vote for Holyrood will consolidate the demand for independence.

You say when you think how it could have been, well you’ll never know because the snp would not tell anyone how they would run the country. I,e what currency we would use,what would happen to pensions paid into UK system for years. They also said they would stay in the Eu but that wouldn’t happen because we’re only in it as part of the UK. We would have to reapply to get back in and then forced to use the Euro. Also snp would open the borders for as many immigrants as would like to come here.they also talk about Tory austerity but they want to borrow billions. That has to be paid back, resulting in the same austerity the Tories are putting us in so there wouldn’t be any difference. I’m sure more people would have voted yes if there was some answers but the snp Never answer anything their asked.

And there, in one paragraph, a demonstration of the intellectual void of Unionism. A select few of the inanane and insane arguments answered again and again by YES during IndyRef, We can repeat till blue in the face secure in the knowledge that there will always be some who just WILL NOT LISTEN.

Many born outside Scotland voted Yes and you are not doing anyone a favour by bringing ethnicity into the debate. The independence campaign was fought – and remains to be fought – on building a better, fairer, more socially cohesive nation. The “Braveheart” response will not win anyone over and only plays into the hands of those who want to portray those who favour independence as “swivel-eyed nats”. I was born in Northern Ireland and have lived in Scotland for some time. I voted Yes and am as sick as anyone at the outcome but when you start playing the race card, you’ve lost the argument.

“But is it the right approach to pretend nobody was hurt by last year’s vote…” (no) ” …and swallow our feelings as if voting against your own country’s independence was a normal and forgivable act?” (yes)

We HAVE to forgive, for we need those who voted no before. We need them to change their minds and vote yes with us. If we play the blame game we only alienate them.

Also, if we cannot accept people voting no then we are denying the validity of democracy. There is no point in a referendum if we dictate how all must cast their vote.

Why should we have another referendum if all must vote yes? We might as well just enforce independence. Is that the kind of country we want… where the will of the minority is imposed on the majority?

Now, that sounds strangely familiar!

No, we must proceed steadily with positive and logical persuasion. We must respect and engage with doubters. We cannot at the same time castigate and bring them on side.

Allowing our frustration to change the tone of the campaign will not win it. We all saw how the sour negativity of Better Together’s rhetoric turned more and more people away from support for the union when it was countered with restrained, rational, unemotional political persuasion from the Yes side. I completely understand the impulse to start yelling “TOLD YE SO!” and “IT’S A’ YOUR FAULT” at No voters, but that is demonstrably not the best way to transfer their allegiance to our cause.

The way forward is to continue with the display of competence, good governance, strong political and economic argument and an intolerance of divisive, over-emotional, aggressive blame-casting. We have to show how independence is right, better, workable, unthreatening, fairer and ultimately more desirable than the status quo. The more we remain calm, determined, convincing and confident the more the rantings of the BritNat commentariat will seem repellent and foolish.

Feelings understandable and shared but they’re not good enough. Think Mandela – we’re not all like him of course but we should aspire to his strategy: channel initial feelings and transform them into ways to win power.

Nice one Derek. That wee break in Portugal has sorted your head out. This is one of your clearest posts. Like others, it more or less covers how I feel about the current state of affairs. You are right, we need to be patient and get the timing right. Hopefully it will be closer to your prediction of sooner rather than later.

Is the idea of ‘waiting until the time is right’ caught up with the notion that the SNP will somehow be able to hold a snap referendum? This surely ignores the reality that Westminster not Hollyrood have the power to grant another vote & that any consultative vote held will be ignored by unionists & declared illegitimate. While I am self aware enough to recognise my own restlessness, I’d still regard failure to include a clear mandate for indyref2 in the Hollyrood 2016 manifesto as a grave error.
We know the likely backdrop in 2018/2020: Nicola’s popularity, Labour’s continuing turmoil, Tories in 2nd term, Boris PM in waiting. How do we know this waiting game is EVER going to yield as good an opportunity again? I also fail to understand how a strategy of not campaigning for independence is a dead cert for seeing support for it magically rising over time. The MSM are desperate to move the agenda away from the constitution & onto attacking the Scottish Government’s record & ‘failure’ to use as yet undevolved tax powers.
Is ‘the error..to move too soon’ or is it to watch as support for independence generated by the 2014 vote ebbs slowly away?

Genuinely unsure about the Corbyn effect. If he looks like a credible proposition for PM he could do the SNP a lot of damage in my view but I have doubts that he can take the party with him or that he can appeal in sufficient numbers to Middle England.

If we don’t move soon enough support for Indy WILL slowly evaporate. And if we move to soon we would probably lose. So we need a climaxing moment in the near future to go for a 2nd referendum and it will be obvious when it has arrived. But we need to wait for it.

My point is we don’t have the luxury of calling a snap referendum at a climaxing moment. What we have is every 5 years the option of whether to attempt to win another mandate to hold one.
We could be confident of winning the mandate to hold one in 2016 for a 2018/2020 vote. Who knows when or even if the next opportunity will arise?

In the scenario where England votes to take us out of Europe against our clearly expressed democratic will then that will be a climaxing moment and the campaign for it will be held in a climate of Euro negotiations to leave and the exit of firms. The announcement of the referendum might just keep Scots firms at home and provide a possible one for worried English ones. And in that scenario the Commission will be on our side: a territory salvaged from disaster and surround rUK with Euro States.

Excellent article and interesting posts. I too am bitter, bitter with those who voted “No”, knowing it was a vote for more of the same from Cameron, Osborne & co, (or even for Tory-Lite if they got in), but my bitterness for the ordinary voters is tempered by my utter contempt for politicians such as “the great Intellect”, Flipper, Osborne, (and their lackeys such as McPherson) and co who deliberately lied and misled the Scottish People, safe in the knowledge that whatever happened it wouldn’t affect them with their gold-plated pensions and jet-setting lifestyle.

These are the people who prefer unfairness to equity, who believe in inequality, that the rich deserve all their wealth because they are exceptionally talented, that the poor must be made to suffer for their own stupidity, that business must not be regulated and that the answer to low pay is tax-payer subsidies and so on. Undoubtedly some No voters agree with them, but I suspect most were simply misled.

First class Derek, and also most of the posts, but on a personal level, whether it’s statistically correct or not, the continual criticism of the over 65s still gets to me, probably because I’m in that age group.
Now probably a lot of us in that category had a postal vote in the referendum, in my case for the first time ever, because I was concerned that ill-health might mean I wasn’t able to attend in person.
Now, canvassing/campaigning during the years leading up to the vote, I certainly didn’t find on the doorstep that such a large majority of elderly voters were intending to vote No. If anything, they seemed to be split 50/50. I admit that in the referendum we won every ward in our constituency, so possibly I was getting a false reading, as distinct from taking the country as a whole.
On the other hand, reading Dave McEwan Hill, and his figures from Argyll regarding the postal vote, it makes me wonder.
As for a second referendum, the comment made about people in my age group not being around is obviously correct, so while I agree timing is everything, I don’t want to wait too long as I’m desperate to see Scotland as a completely independent country.

I think politicisation didn’t reach far enough and now must continue if we are ever to reach a super majority. I’m glad to hear of the National Yes registry and that it looks like the Yes movement might revive and continue the fight as that is what is needed – more campaigning for independence.

I feel like Derek about No voters. The pain and anger has not gone away.

I do feel that deep down that as a movement we made stunning progress yet ultimately we fell short and failed to convince enough people. It is tragic that we didn’t clear another 6% yet let’s not forget that a low majority would have been problematic.

But there are a certain number of No voters that I have contempt for. Those who were too lazy to become informed when ignorance is a choice in a literate society. Those who voted for the status quo because they were comfortable within it and vaguely feared, without examining the claims of Better Together critically, that they might just be worse off. The lazy self-centred No voters are the ones I feel most contempt for. And they are still there, the de-politicised, comfortable in their office jobs, as somebody mentioned above, just floating along on the surface, being carried along by the tide like so much other passive flotsam bobbing about on the surface.

I get a feeling that many on the no camp were secretly thrilled when the tories won. They got what they wanted and with the “veto” in the Scotland act, can once again interfere in Scottish affairs. Since 97 the only thing a Scottish tory could do in Holyrood was pass wind, so they take great relish at their new found power, largely thanks to a supine and wretched labour party that thinks looking the other way is effective opposition. They don’t care about the SNPs 56 MPs because they see us as powerless in the face of tory austerity. It doesn’t matter the damage it does to the Scottish tories in the long run, as long as the English branch of the party is in charge they’re as happy as pigs in rolling about in the muck. The labour voters on the no side are of course devastated. This was not supposed to happen at all. They were supposed to have a greater win than 55%. The SNP were supposed to go into meltdown not surge ahead. They wouldn’t need to reconcile yes voters to being British, because the NO vote would simply drown them out. They only narrowly avoided defeat because of a panicked intervention from Brown, committing them to a package of powers they were not prepared to give us. They then endeavoured to make sure it could not deliver anything, and Cameron ensured that it would look like a punishment beating from westminster.

For the commentariat – it’s clear to see that they expected things to go back to normal – normal being Scotland voting labour, giving succour to the likes of Hassan and Deering and allowing Torrance, Massie and Cochran to bemoan Scotland’s dependency culture. Rough tongued badinage generating column inches for Scots to deride, query or just nod knowingly. That didn’t happen. British politics caught a back handed slap from the Scottish electorate. Their parties failed utterly. the tactical voting failed. The smears failed. The “cogent” analysis failed. Murphy failed. Rennie failed, Davidson failed and finally they failed. What can they do but lash out calling us mindless zombies, or cultists. Driving a wedge between themselves and the voters they lost.

In the end I think Cameron is making the same mistake Thatcher made. Taking a narrow win for a much larger endorsement for policies that were rejected during the general election. As far as he is concerned – No voters voted for everything that is coming Scotland’s way. So yes, one can say that everything that happens from now on, is on them. So its easy to understand the anger coming from them.

It is the very definition of hypocrite to vote for Westminster to be in charge of Scottish affairs, then demand the Scottish government do something to stop it.
It seems to me on reflection that for some No voters, their sense of Britishness was conditional of labour winning. They are plastic Brits & fair weather friends of the union and yes it is hard to be charitable towards them.

The thing is folks, we don’t have to ram it down NO voter’s throats, because they know exactly what they have done. Le ave them to reflect on the consequences of their decision in private.

If they have buyer’s remorse, they will determine to correct their mistake next time. If they remain in denial and refuse to accept any responsibility whatsoever, well TBH nothing we can say will change a warped mindset.

So, what to do about NO voters? Leave them to it, I say. Those that are going to come over to YES will do so in their own time, and those that never will are a complete waste of effort anyway. The sheep and the goats will separate themselves in due course.

I met a friend today I had not seen for a long time & we were talking about controlling anger & having to walk away from disagreements. I was telling him that my neighbour & I sat on opposite sides of the fence during IndyRef (I didn’t say what side I was on because it was not relevant to the discussion); I said that I spoke to my neighbour in the street & told him I was unfriending him on Facebook as every time I posted something within minutes he would reply ‘pish’ or similar (Sometimes there was no way he could have read the link) and that we were going to come to blows if I didn’t & that would be silly. My neighbour agreed.

Anyway, the friend today was eager to find out which way I voted so I told him ‘Yes’ to which he replied (and I kid you not) ‘Oh, I voted No. I mean I’m as patriotic as anyone else but we canny afford it’. I totally switched off, saw out the rest of the conversation and said my goodbyes.

Sometimes, there is just no point in going over old ground; and by challenging some people we are challenging a whole belief system built up over years so it doesn’t matter how logical or factual we are they will resist.

Since the current UK Government intends to legislate to require landlords in England to spy on foreign tenants, it seems to me that the trend is to get all citizens involved in the creeping power of the state, to the point at which it will be impossible to live freely as a citizen. There are sinister forces at work here, devising ways to make England at least into the new German Democratic Republic, with an ostensible democracy and draconian penalties for anyone stepping out of line (up to 5 years’ imprisonment for harbouring “illegitimate” foreign nationals – not to mention no court supervision for evictions, if landlords fancy toeing the government line).

If Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales don’t follow suit, then their devolved administrations will doubtless be required to introduce equivalent xenophobic legislation. If they don’t do so, then funds will be withheld (as they’re being “wasted” on “illegal” immigrants) and the disgusting dawn raids will become even more prevalent – controlled by an overtly politicised civil service.

What a pity my late father didn’t live long enough to see a free (yes, that is the right word) Scotland, but, on the other hand, it’s a relief that he didn’t live to see the freedoms he fought for abandoned.

I can relate to this article perhaps more than any other piece Derek has written (and he has done some fantastic ones in the past). My first 2 children were both born last year (at New Yr and Xmas Eve, no less) and my wife and I wanted, more than ANYTHING, for them to be able to proudly proclaim they were referendum year babies… Instead, we dread the day they ask us to explain why it all went wrong.

While I am proud of the way the wider YES movement bounced back so quickly and so spectacuarly, many supporters are more (too?) forgiving than my wife and I. While it is true that older voters don’t have much involvement with the internet and social media, their (grand)children certainly do and their offspring’s enthusiasm for independence will not have escaped them. That they listened to the abysmal NO campaign and the mainstream media and believed it over their own family, is hard to fathom and even harder to forgive.

When all is said and done, the upper middle classes (“ahm a’richt, Jock!”) and the over-60’s have to take a good, long hard look at themselves and accept that they have been a barrier to the hopes and dreams of our youth, our most vulnerable and our most aspirational, The grandparents stole the future of the grandchildren and I can only hope we get a 2nd chance at this before it’s too late for yet another generation.

I’m really fed up with (the over 60’s comments. I’m 68 my brother is seventy, my neighbours are pensioners and we all voted YES.
I joined the SNP when I was seventeen, long before you were even a twinkle.
So give it up.

And I’m 64! I campaigned for Yes like many others. But check the demographics – it’s a fact. Our generation is mostly Nos. It doesn’t mean that all over 60s are Nos or are selfish but speak to any younger person and they’ll tell you – like it or not, we’re robbing them of their future. They will be a generation who don’t do better than their parents…I believe independence is the surest way to reverse that. You hippies…

This started as a small movement long before even the older adults of today were born!

From little acorns large oak trees grow.

Who were the acorns starting this now great movement? They were of generations now past or passing.
Like any fledgling movement it was formed of courageous souls who worked with fortitude. Through their effort more and more people have come to their side. These older generations you sweepingly blame for forgetting the young were the foundations on which the movement for independence was built.

My parents, in their mid and upper eighties, were immediately for Yes when the referendum was announced. They remained involved and informed themselves from many quarters. They blanked out a whole window with Yes sign which approaching traffic could not avoid seeing. Tell them that they forgot their grandchildren, and their great grandchildren.

OK. For the last time. It does NOT mean – and nowhere does it say – that ALL older people voted No. It says they as a group tended to. Heres John Curtice to prove it. http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/voted-yes-voted/
I worked with and salute all those – like me – who are older who campaigned for Yes but the stark fact is we were a minority. It is not a personal insult to say you’re part of a generation which broadly voted No although you didn’t. And I know the history of the party. Keep reading!

Thank you for intervening Derek, though I hoped the likes of Fiona and Andrew wouldn’t take my post as a slant on *all* over-60’s. Nevertheless, while Ashcroft’s snap post-ref poll may have been just that, ALL evidence produced since shows their demographic was, by some huge margin (70%+) the most hostile to independence.

If I may add further personal experience, I saw this first hand in my own family. My wife (who isn’t Scottish, btw) and I were staunch YES, my sister and her man were YES, my mother (late 50’s) was YES… but my grandparents (early 80’s) were NO and stubbornly refused to shift. I say “stubbornly” because they knew full well they were lining up against the entire family AND are fully aware of the disadvantages Westminster rule has brought our generations (and will inevitably do to our newborns, too).

A number of factors, mainly sentimentality (lived through the war, feeling of British “values/identity”) and the apathetic “we did OK out of the Union” mentality (enjoyed prosperity in the 50’s/60’s, bought council house at a knockdown *sorry, RIDICULOUS* price, no student loan burden, almost full employment, etc.) motivated a huge number of that 70%+.

In short, they hanker for the days of a Britain that is long gone (and to an extent never was!) and will never again return. That sentimentality has acted as a barrier to their offspring… and will likely condemn their children to even worse.

There is no point in wasting oxygen on the politically and economically illiterate. There are some people who are so brainwashed that they think Scotland is skint and the UK wealthy. That they just close their eyes to any economic or political facts.

It wouldn’t matter if you were a nobel prize winning economist. They just can’t accept Scotland as a viable nation.

They describe themselves as patriotic ,but they are not. A patriot defends the independence their country rich or poor. For them it is only rich. Ironically misguided as we are poor because of the union not because we are Scotland.

Expecting the change to happen and waiting for the right moment will not deliver independence. Building the believable story of what independence looks like, what independence feels like, how independent Scots will earn and spend, how independence will work in Scotland must be started immediately. Scots voters must be, or become, desirous to play their part in that story and not be feared of false threats which are part of someone else’s story (Westminster).

Building the campaign has to start now. Waiting for the moment is the waiting room for fear.

Reading the comments above I really do believe we need to get behind a Yes campaign, objective to inform the public on politics and economics.

The farce of Mundell and his two hired hands at the Scotland Office; the Carmichael investigation; the gathering storm over UK paedophiles; renewables policy – Hinckly Point nuclear station economics deal with EDF.

Yes could take issues on economics, UK democracy and morality to the public via stalls in towns, meetings, and the Internet.

completely agree with dereks sentiments. having been surrounded by many friends, family, relatives who were naysayers during the indyref, ifelt like a lone wolf in my beliefs for a free scotia. many discussions later i cant say i hear any apologies or sorrow for whats been bestowed on scotland for rejecting its freedom. just more of the same we cant afford it bile. im not retaliating, challenging, voicing any further discussion with any of them now as i feel its totally pointless. even the wee blue book would be regarded as propaganda. i will still attend indy arches, or political rallies without their knowledge knowing at least im with like minded patriots.so not convinced they can be converted to the light anytime soon im afraid.

The no voters do not realize that they are being used the establishment have them convinced they are special the masons the O.O. The rangers supporters they all fall for it hook line and sinker and by the way I am a Protestant age 76 but I was never daft enough to be used

So – I followed a link here from a friend on Facebook. I get that people were frustrated and upset by the No vote. But i think some of the language here is divisive. I don’t think it’s particularly worthwhile to merely point at bad things happening and say “Thanks a lot No voters”.
There are problems that exist and you can argue about how different things might have been but just saying “that’s your fault” is hardly constructive. Imagine the teething troubles in a newly independent Scotland – what purpose would it serve for the defeated No voters to point at everything and say “Thanks a bunch Yes voters”.

To be honest reading this I worry that the biggest issue is thinking of No voters as anything other than normal people. It seems that for some people the rationale for voting Yes was absolutely self evident. And because of this some people literally cannot comprehend why someone would vote No – so in order to rationalise they create a list of reasons that are basically moral failings – fear, stupidity, craven devotion to the British State. “They’re thick! They’re scared! They’re greedy! That MUST be the reason”
Surely it’s more reasonable to assume that they’re just regular people that want the same things but have a different view of how that can be achieved. Two people can recognise the same problem (poverty, representation etc) and differ on the solution (Indy). People have a mix of motivations – experience, identity, heritage, uncertainity, protest. How about a bit of empathy? (saying ‘oh I get it now, you’re an idiot’ isn’t empathy).
Part of the issue is also the reductive arguments – that if you don’t vote for one thing you MUST be pro the other. Didn’t want Indy? You must love Westminister. Or wrongly conflating arguments. Didn’t vote Indy? You must love Food Banks then.

If you’re trying to build a consensus for something then it doesn’t make sense to open despise those that voted the other way. There seems to be a fantasy that No voters are lashing themselves in remorse and regret. That soon they will realise the error of their ways, repent their sins and join the other side. But most of them have got on with their lives. Accusing them of betrayal and wanting to strangle them isn’t going to bring them into the fold.
And it’s not a case of “being nice to them even though they don’t deserve it” because that’s going to be pretty transparent. Whatever happens in the future we’re all going have to share the country with the same people. And the extra 200,000 votes aren’t going to arrive just because you want them too.

Good post. But surely we who are Yes are entitled to share our feelings and wouldn’t you rather we were honest and transparent? ‘Thanks No voters’ reflects everything we predicted would happen and the blog makes the point about the blatant hypocrisy of No on a range of issues now it’s over. Best just to pretend it didn’t happen? Get over it? You have to understand the passion that went into it and which still drives Yes – something obviously missing from No which is so dismissive of hope and aspiration. It isn’t just about another government – it’s about national independence and what may turn out – who knows – to be our only chance. All this deeply cynical Get Over It stuff demonstrates a lack of engagement in my view. (I voted No because I prefer Westminster over an independent government in Edinburgh – please empathise). Whatever each person’s different motivations, that is the choice they made if they voted No – to put Westminster above their own national government. And aren’t many of them the same No voters who displayed precious little empathy for the Yes cause by disparaging it’s members as variously Communists, nutters, Nazis etc?
It is an inescapable fact that a Yes vote would mean no more Tory government and their policies. It must be embarrassing for some but I don’t think it can be denied that is what No delivered.
It isn’t that No voters are thick – that’s your word. But the polling shows enough of them were convinced by sleight of hand like the Vow or Brown’s promise of near federalism. I don’t despise but I do debate with others how any Scot could vote against their own country’s independence. I confess that baffles and dismays me – because I’m a nationalist no doubt. Just as No voters would, as you indicate, have excoriated Yes for every hiccup of independence, so it can’t be entirely unfair to remind them of what they did. And what do we read into the demographic that heavily voted No? Older, better off, the baby boomers and beyond (like me) who are already reaping the benefits of one-sided Tory policy on pensions, benefits, home ownership and inheritance at the expense of the next generation who are being taught society doesn’t value them. Is it wrong or is it accurate to point out that mine is now the selfish generation subsidised unfairly while being airily dismissive of social change in case it punctures their bubble?
As for winning over No voters, I’m not holding my breath. They’ll have to get there by themselves. 20 years I reckon.

20 years is fine with me, that’s the once in a generation Salmond, and I believe the white paper promised. Demanding it now because you don’t like the result doesn’t smack of the democratic utopia an independent Scotland is meant to be.

Pumping out rhetoric that no Independence supporter ever used to attempt to prove a point that was never made
The Invention of language that didn’t and still doesn’t exist except in the minds of Unionists in their desire to be equal to the English
Except that’s not the way they think of Scotland most of them don’t think about us at all
As long as the can fill their cars up with petrol eat cheap fish good meat and come on holiday to Brigadoon.. Hootsmon..Och Aye the Noo

The SNP (I’m a member) plan appears to be keep our fingers crossed for a big event to develop and hope that opinion polls show a clear majority, then call another referendum.

We have to motivate voters now. The SNP have to produce an alternative economic policy, devised by top economists, assuming a post oil scenario. Any oil taxes invested in an oil fund.

To achieve this we need to have our own currency in order to print money for Investment e.g.Investment Quantative Easing, as promoted by Corbyn and many leading economists. Cut tax reliefs for Investments etc. Uk tax relief bill is currently £93bn.

In short think outside the box for the benefit of the majority, Then put that proposition to the people. If opinion polls don’t shift then ok. But in the name of God we have to try!

This strikes me as the grass is always greener argument for independence. The economic arguments simply didn’t stack up; we might not have been another Greece but it could be a whole lot worse than a Tory government for the next 5 years – and I really hate the Tories.

I understand yes voters being disappointed but please respect the majority, demonising no voters only goes to extenuate the divisiveness the referendum stirred up. Put that energy into making the whole UK better, why stop at the border.

I voted no because I care about Scotland too much to take the gamble that independence would be. I live here, unlike some prominent yes campaigners who really are alright jack and have nothing to lose. I also know that the English are not all evil Tories and they are not the enemy, you can draw all sorts of lines on the UK map where the Tories just aren’t a thing.

Sarah, you can’t hate the Tories too much if you voted to let them run your country. In fact you voted for them in preference Scotland. But you seem to be saying you fundamentally agree with the UK and you don’t believe Scotland would be economically strong enough. That’s my point – No voters don’t believe in Scotland – not enough – and prefer London government whatever social and economic costs it exacts. That’s your right but the rest of us are entitled to point out the drawbacks and the opportunity missed.
As for drawing lines on a map – isn’t that exactly what the UK government is doing by deciding Scots MPs can’t vote on all UK issues – drawing a line on a map? Below the line you can vote on all matters but above it, you can’t? Isn’t that exactly what the Tories meant by saying they wouldn’t recognise a UK parliament composed of Labour and there SNP? Your own government regards you as second class in your own country…
Good luck with making the UK better, I see Cameron’s making a great start on the House of Lords!
Thanks.

You voted No because you are a self-interested person who is comfortable and contented within the Union. It’s working out fine for you. England is a right wing Tory country and you are perfectly happy for Scotland to be ruled by an English Tory majority.

I’m not hearing any caring there Sarah, what I’m hearing is I’ve got No bottle so I’ll just let somebody else take the rap for my Feartyness and cross my fingers and hope
If you’d done that by voting Yes you’d be working for your country and your own future instead of waiting for it to be saved by somebody else
But there’s another chance coming soon whether Westminster likes it or not and they can say what they want they can’t stop it
Be Brave Sarah do something for your country not against it, and one more thing the Tories will be in power now for 15 years who’s going to stop them

Without a clear plan on currency, EU membership and numbers that add up without oil (while insisting it’s ‘icing on the cake’) we cannot possibly know that we are better apart.

It doesn’t mean we can’t be independent, we are not somehow inferior, but neither are we in some way superior and there’s bound to be disadvantages along with the advantages.

Meanwhile the SNP have made cuts in Scotland where they have control and are not always the friends to the poor or as left wing they proclaim themselves, possibly too busy chasing an ideology. Certainly their support of students has shifted from the poorer and those away from home in favour of richer households; free tuition fees are only any good if you can afford to live at uni. I don’t believe Scots as a nation are as different from the English as they think they are. I certainly don’t see Scots embracing the high taxes of Scandinavian countries cited as role models after the collapse of Ireland and Iceland (remember when we were going to be like them or in the euro?).

I’m not sure how people complaining at being ruled by the English can in clear conscience want to vote on English matters that have absolutely no impact on Scotland. Fine where there are grey areas to resolve those but that line on the map indicates where we have our own parliament and decide our own affairs.

Blaming our current woes on no voters is just the thin end of a very unpleasant wedge that does the independence cause no good at all.

Sarah
Here’s a point.
You evidently understand that we are an inferior bunch, not competent to manage our affairs and that’s a legitimate if somewhat unappetising position to hold.

Even three hundred years of a close union has rendered us no more able and we obviously would mismanage the Scottish economy the way it has been mismanaged by UK rule for decades if we had charge of it.

Now we have 56 MPs at Westminster and the forces down south want to prevent them voting on English matters. This apparently is because we have our own Parliament and English MPs don’ t get to vote in ours
However our London 56 don’t get to vote in our own Parliament either. They are elected to the UK Parliament
Do you think they should be made second class Westminster MPs?

There was a clear plan on currency, you simply chose not to believe it. Ditto on the EU. Your choice and you’re perfectly entitled.

As for the numbers not adding up? I’d maybe look into some homework on national macro economics. The reason Scotland’s finances don’t add up is the model we are currently forced to follow. How we tax and spend, who sets the tax rates, how resources are stewarded and none of that can be laid at the door of Holyrood. Scotland has more than enough wealth and infrastructure to form a stable and successful independent economy, IF managed correctly. And that’s the biggie, who do you trust to run such an economy. You made a choice, simple as that.

Lastly: “Blaming our current woes on no voters is just the thin end of a very unpleasant wedge that does the independence cause no good at all.”

Voting no does carry a certain degree of burden. You did indeed vote for the continuation of the current system. Something else to bear in mind, it wasn’t our press or campaign who waged a campaign of naked othering and demonisation and we certainly considered those actions the thin end of a very unpleasant wedge. They still practice this narrative to this very day. What price a victory when half of your people are treated as lepers by your media and your government?

I’m sorry Sarah, I don’t buy your, we can’t afford to go it alone way of thinking. New Zealand with a similar population to Scotland has been labelled a “rock star economy” in recent years and that’s without the natural resources and close accessibility to European markets that Scotland enjoys. I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of Scots have been conditioned into believing Scotland is “too wee, poor & stupid” to run it’s own affairs.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a country when people have to ask who’s going to protect them from Government policies – they should be working for the benefit of all! Although I didn’t vote for the current NZ Government, I have never doubted that they are working to benefit the whole of NZ and not just one part of the country as Westminster has always seemed fit to do.

Outwith all the many valid reasons for voting Yes and disregarding my belief that Scotland should join the world of ‘normal’ countries and run its own affairs I could never vote to stay within a system that results in 1 in 5 kids (or 1 in 4 in some areas) living in poverty.

I have no kids myself so in that respect I am not thinking of my bloodline but I think that if the other option other than stay with Westminster was to be ruled from Paris, Moscow or Washington I would have wanted to give them that chance to change things.

To coin a phrase ‘Westminster isn’t working’ esp for hundreds of thousands of people esp. children.

Exactly Alex! Like you I gave up a great proportion of my life during the Yes campaign and the campaign for the GE to actively campaign. Our region (Lochaber) like yours voted strongly YES and overturned a large majority in the GE to get our SNP MP elected.
We absolutely need the referendum at least referenced in the manifesto, the Better together campaign never stops we are still continually bombarded with BT propaganda, we need to change the dynamic, and we can’t do that passively waiting for another referendum.
We need to be on the front foot we need to have a clear vision of where we are going, it may be that the referendum won’t be until 2020, although I think that’s too far away but we need a target.
Right now all the stars are lining up in our favour, the unionist in Scotland are not in a position to create another BT campaign, the Tories are despised, the SNP are still on the rise and who is to say we will win another outright majority in 2020?
We started the last campaign polling 25-30% we can start this time genuinely neck and neck, and the unionist threats have lost their potency.
If we wait too long we will miss our chance we need to be walking into the polling stations no later than 2018.
God I’m getting frustrated!

Dave, I knocked on hundreds of doors and attended so many street stalls and the currency was never a big issue, if it was the polls wouldn’t have closed by 2% after Osborn’s announcement!
The economy in general of course was debated strongly, but the currency in my view didn’t lose us much ground. We lost more support because of Alex’s first disaster of a debate with Darling than we did due to the currency.
The problem was it gave the unionists something to attack, but I honestly think there was bigger issues, and the NHS was one of them.

Hi Derek
Great post and many great comments. I get the hold out the hand bit and they’ll come around in their own time bit and so on.
Will I ever forgive No voters? No. Will I welcome them to the Yes side. Of course.
The two are not incompatible.

Andrew Wilson’s:- “Above all else, stay positive, respectful of opponents’ views and persuade gently rather than with disbelieving rancour…” describes the patience, stoicism and determination that we need IMO. Fortune will eventually favour us for our cause is a just one. The Westminster Establishment is merely a powerful but relatively small group of squalor creating, greedy individuals whose lack of real mandate and general pointlessness are rapidly being widely recognised throughout the world.

Good thoughtful post, Derek, and it has brought forward interesting comment most of it positive and hopeful.
Although I have to confess that I voted and campaigned for a Yes vote in Argyll and Bute I am approaching my 76th birthday but I was by no means the oldest member of our team! I was not old when I started on this journey but I am now hopeful that the sought for outcome is within our grasp.
We achieve nothing by bad mouthing those who are not yet convinced but the huge variety of talents that represent us at Westminster and Holyrood will, by example, keep us on that trajectory.

The fact is that the Sarahs of the No voter world are still with us; smug, comfortable, self-satisfied and unrepentant, and hating the SNP and Scotland more than they claim to hate the Tories. Like Milliband, they would rather see a Tory victory than share power or do a deal with the SNP. Her supposed ‘hatred’ of the Tories isn’t actually political, as she basically agrees with their policies. It’s more tribal. I suspect her of being a dyed in the wool Red Tory.

She’s done us a favour by posting here and revealing that her like have not changed one iota. Not despite the 45 or the 56, or the current popularity of the SNP as shown by recent by-elections since May 7th and their likely success at Holyrood next year. Or local elections in 2017.

None of this will in any way matter to Sarah, as of course she discounts local government and the ‘pretendy wee parliament’. Real power is resting with the Union, and the Tories at Westminster, and she can sleep at night because that’s how Sarah likes it.

People like her are impervious to principle or argument and just have to be fought as they cannot be won over.

She sounds like a complete phoney if she claims to hate the Tories but is content to be governed by them. For ever.

Well said.
This completely off topic but I have to say it somewhere.
Argyll and Bute has been tarred with a “No” vote at the referendum. This is hard to bear.
“Historic” Argyll and Bute particularly Oban and Lorn, Dunoon and Cowal and Rothesay and Bute voted heavily YES but we got the heavily populated Helensburgh lumped onto us (and an unbelievable and virtually impossible 96% take up on the postal vote). And we are even yesser now.

I knew Iain MacCormick, and his Mum. Iain was the MP (SNP) for Argyll in the 1970s. His father was John MacCormack who organised the Scottish Covenant in the 1950s which collected two million signatures for indy and his brother was the legal expert the late Prof. Neil McCormack another prominent SNP supporter.

It broke my heart to learn that Iain was gravely ill on September 18th with lung cancer, but the last political act he did for Scotland was to vote Yes, bringing his oxygen tank into the polling station to do so.

But the following day he died, after the No result was known, Cameron had given his EVEL speech, and just as Alex Salmond was giving his resignation speech.

How Iain would have rejoiced to know of the 56, and the new membership exceeding 100,000.