First, I will support anyone who chooses to end their M... but I WILL challenge it. In the same way as I support everyone who chooses to stand, but challenge why and how...

Originally Posted By: zig

in the 37 rules, it says to validate their feelings - if one is trying to get out of the double-bind role , how does one do that without staying in that role?

Validating does not have to mean agreeing with the other person. It simply means that you acknowledge they have a viewpoint and opinion and also acknowledging that it is their right to have ANY opinion or feeling or viewpoint... even if it does not match your own...

As a virtue, that one is called tolerance...

Originally Posted By: zig

guess i need a bit of tutoring here (grin)

We all do... no matter where we are in a sitch... or in life...

Originally Posted By: zig

for eg. if he says that he's really fearful about coming back because we will fall into our old patterns, he feels really vulnerable with me, (which is what he's said) - how do i validate that without owning my part in my actions

"I understand that you feel that way. I might make mistakes along the way, but I will continue to work on my own growth and betterment."

You DO own your own mistakes. It's separate from validating.

You own what YOU are responsible for and you own your power of the things that you can control, which is yourself, and what you intend to do... followed by doing it... always follow up with action...

Originally Posted By: zig

by owning my part in the situation, i have to describe what the effects of my behaviors were on him - is that me assuming the role in the double -bind , or me validating his fears and concerns?

You DO NOT describe the effects that you may have had on your H... or anyone... because you cannot know how the feel or what they think... even if words come out of their mouths in an attempt to describe it...

IOW, "I feel frustrated" or "I feel angry" might come from the same place in someone... but they FEEL it as frustration not anger...

If you say, I understand that what I did frustrated you... they could be thinking... "no... it didn't frustrate me... it made me angry... see, you don't understand..."

Rather, mirror their words...

H: I feel angry when you... [insert the reason here]

zig: I understand that you feel angry and I apologize for my part in that

Of course, if it has nothing to do with you, you do not need to apologize. In fact, even if you DID have a part in it, you do not have to follow with an apology. Just validate.

Or alternately, apologize... but only once...

If they state it again, you validate again. But if you've apologized and they ask you to apologize a second time, you simply remind them that you HAVE apologized, felt remorse for it and wish to move past it.

If they keep asking for repeated apologizing for some past harm that you have already apologized for, then the likelyhood is... they are (and most likely unconsciously) attempting to have you feel shame again, to get you back into the double bind...

So again...

You take back your power and control by indicating:

Yes, I understand how you felt [insert the word he used to describe his feelings] about my anger outbursts. I apologize for that. I am now working on controlling my anger and refraining from lashing out at you.

Done...

Is it that simple? Yes, it is.

Does it work that simply? It could, but just as likely it is not and will take time...

As you follow your words by action, he eventually begins to believe that a) you mean what you say, and b) that he will get one apology for a wrong and will not get back into the double bind...

hope that makes sense... it will take strength and courage, but you can do it...

thanks so much for all this help KD - you really gave me a lot of time and energy -

i need to fine tune a bit what i'm saying when i validate his feelings and when i apologize - the part i have to work on is where you said - don't assume what his reaction was to what i did

he hasn't really asked me to apologize for the same things over - as far as i remember - but let's see what is coming up in these talks that he wants to have "to resolve our issues" . i'll be able to tell more where his head is at - still in the same place as before or somewhere new...

can you tell me where your thread is - i don't seem to be able to find it -

I was a complete basket case when I came here. I didn't have the courage and did not expect to read back on my old threads, but my first few posts at least, sound rather lucid... maybe I might read them, one day. They will follow one to the next as they are all linked.

ok - so last night i left my coat and wallet in the car - and h drove my car to his place because s was asleep in the back, using my coat as a pillow.

a few mins ago, i went to put my coat on and put my hands in the pockets and pulled out a piece of paper that i had shoved in there

shite - it was the list of things to ask and talk about with the IC last week, and there on the top of the list was "how do i deal with this last minute everything with h, i see it as a control thing..." along with other stuff that's difficult for me to deal with

and now i'm wondering - DO WAS's SNOOP INTO LBS's STUFF?

because - today he suddenly was doing the opposite of exactly what i wrote there.

also i wondered if he went through my wallet - my little appointment card for the IC was in there, as well as my bank card for my separate bank account which he doesn't know i opened a couple of months into the sitch. he did hand me my wallet a bit oddly this morning

also in the other pocket was a whole bunch of little pieces of paper - all with stuff i have written to encourage myself - for several months i've carried them around and pull and read them every time i was having a bad moment. they were really worn out and torn up, and i had forgotten they were in there - there was also a list sort of similar to the 37 rules - and i'm like sh*t - i hope he didn't see that - i read through them and they're all stuff which basically encourages me to be in a good place, except one that said"play hard to get" OOPS

oh well - if he did see them there's nothing i can do about it now. i guess i have to be careful - not used to him being around so much as the last couple of days

i was reading through crimson's thread and saw what 25yrsmlc wrote to him. hope it's okay to copy and paste it here - it started to answer the question i asked in my last post

[b"]If she won't guarantee piecing, you won't keep working on the R with the mother of your child?"[/b]

i haven't read all of crimsons' thread, so i don't know if the same applies to me, but i figure it does - i figure, if it comes up, i have to work towards him feeling safe enough where he can see it's worth guaranteeing, rather than demand it up front, which would basically be an ultimatum, right?

Just that she has only an opinion. If you have a different one, discuss the differences. If you cannot agree to work on a common goal then maybe look for a new one. This also is just an opinion. good luck!

_________________________
Me:45, W:45S:16 D:13M:22, T:25Bomb: July 2010Putting finances in order for "D"Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

I'm sure you are already on your way to IC, but ces is correct. No matter what, anyone you talk to regarding relationships... and yours specifically... can only offer opinions... and sometimes... those opinions can be harmful towards your goals.

Get to know your IC and if you feel your IC is off your centre on a lot of things... either change your IC...

Or maybe... you might look at changing your centre...

Thoughts on whether WAS snoop?

Well... yes...

yes... they do...

It may not be the SAME type of snooping that a LBS does. Remember, an LBS is either looking to see if there are cracks in the WAS armour... or they are looking for ammunition...

The WAS is for sure looking at it from the yang position... ammunition first... then wanting to know what the LBS is up to...

Early on, my W would comment on aspects of my life that she found out through other parties... no idea why... did she snoop or did people just tell her stuff...? Some was bad... some was neutral... some might even have been seen as "good"...

But my W DID want to know about things I was doing... she'd ask me directly... mostly I would tell her, because I wasn't going to hide anything... but sometimes I didn't share, just because I didn't want to at the time...

But if your H DID snoop... well... too late to hide evidence...

My motto is... if you do NOT want someone to find out that you said or did something negative regarding them... then just don't have those thoughts... never mind writing them down or speaking them...

thanks ces67 - i saw your reply just before leaving, and it helped me to reframe my attitude

i suddenly realized that instead of seeing it as something to resist, because i didn't agree with it , i could see it as an opportunity to find out what to do and how to proceed when two people disagree about something.

so instead, of ""confronting"" her with it, i brought up the discussion about what to do when two people agree to disagree - where do you go from there - and it was very positive and very enlightening.

her immediate answer was - well, you try to find out where the person is coming from within their values, and when you understand their values you can understand their position, which led to the discussion of why h used an affair to "solve" his problems, and i disassociated to solve mine

it was a great appointment - she was fascinated and enthralled by how much progress i had made, and her whole attitude changed when i told her about the events of fri-sunday.

we talked about h's trauma in therapy when he was 5 and his subsequent nervousness about going to this therapy together and we talked about how i could help to make it a safe place for him

suddenly it was more about how to keep moving in this positive direction (in spite of not knowing what his real agenda may be) and she even commented at one point that "you have worked really hard to get here.