What are everyone's opinions about the differences between boxing (even Thai boxing and other striking arts) and MMA? What are your opinions in both the technical aspects as well as the differences in the performance of the individual athletes of the various approaches. Just curious to hear what everyone has to say.

Well many MMA fighters cross train in different arts to round out their game. You'll find that BBJ specialists will train with boxing and MT trainers to round out their striking and vice versa. In my opinion there isnt much of a difference between the striking as the fundamental techniques people learn tend to be the same and then they find their own rhythm within that dicipline.

The guard changes, it has to, those gloves dont offer much in the way of protection so head movement becomes a much bigger factor

Its harder to box on the inside as you are more likely to get drawn into a clinch which is why you tend to see more boxers opting for the out-side.

The stance changes, Boxers can be very heavy on their legs and the angle that the lead leg is at leaves them very vulnerable to low leg strikes. also the legs tend to be positioned further back which changes the balance of the fighter and allows them to avoid take downs easier.

Muay Thai striking changes also, body kicks (highest scoring technique in muay thai) arent used as much due to the chance of them being caught and subseqently taken down.

But I think NRNS is correct about a person finding their own rhythm, taking from different arts to find out what works for them.

I can see in the long term people training in one MMA gym, which covers the lot instead of cross training over different styles in different places.

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Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

Boxers have a bit more latitude as far as commitment of their strikes and upper-body movement in general compared to MMA folk. Over-commit strikes or bob-and-weave too low, and you are setting up take-down and knee counters for the MMA guy.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

@ shills11 - the guard does change and tends to be more of a traditional MT guard which helps defend against high kicks and make parrying strikes easier off the forearms/elbows. As for every other point they are true and valid

Yes it could well be. I find with the MT guard it also helps shorter fighters to get close to taller fighters a lot easier as they can parry many of the strikes as they try to close the distance. From the closed guard the clinch can then be obtained and short elbows and knees may follow if the fight isnt taken into guard on the ground.

Quote: What are your opinions in both the technical aspects as well as the differences in the performance of the individual athletes of the various approaches. Just curious to hear what everyone has to say.

The main difference is the open rule set not allowing striking refinement. So MMA is land of the haymaker in a sense and boxing is land of the technician.

That is not a knock on MMA, it's just the reality of the sport because so many differnt types of attacks are allowed. Because boxing is so limited, boxers can refine their art to a much higher degree then an MMA striker can because of the full body defense he needs.

Yes i know that more protection is offered with MMA gloves than bone to bone but i think Taison was getting at the fact boxers throw their Hooks a different way than MMA fighters. My opinion lays that to the fact the MMA gloves be it 4oz 6 oz dont offer much protection compared to boxing gloves hence the difference in general technique

Just an observation, I have no real MMA training as such, but generally in MMA they seem to throw power shots when punching. The jab isn't really used too much. I have seen some fights where MMA'ists throw power shots with the lead hand, but not so much jabbing goes on (please note my MMA experience amounts to watching PRIDE and some UFC!!!).

In Boxing the jab is crucial. It is used to find range, as a defensive technqiue, a tool to find rhythm, to close distance, and generally wear someone down and keep them off balance.

Whereas I couldn't be certain, I would suggest that there are other tools available in MMA to accomplish the aforementioned. E.g. grappling on the ground to wear someone down.

I could be wayyyyyy off here, but there seems to be a culture in MMA about ending the fight. In other words, stopping the fight within the distance (assuming it is a sport match with sets rules and time limits). I could be completely wrong about this.

I find that in boxing, (well in amateur boxing), there is a massive emphasis on winning the fight by outboxing someone (this is why the jab is crucial). Thoughts or tatics for knockouts/stoppages don't come into it.

Is the same true GENERALLY for MMA? Or is there a culture of finding the most effective way of outright stopping an opponent? Is MMA about using the most effective fighting techniques? If so, what defines it as being effective? Is it whether or not you can use it to stop a fight, to over come an oppoenent?

The reason I ask that is I wonder if that is why in MMA power shots seem to take preference over jabs??? Power shots can knock a guy out. Jabs usually can't.

The emphasis in MMA to stop a fight early is simply because a fight can go either way and be won a number of ways: KO, TKO, Submission, Ref stoppage etc. Also power shots can open up numerous opportunities for fighters I.E. takedowns/slams.

Because MMA fighters have many weapons at their disposal it's easier to catch your opponent cold and this mainly happens early in the first round. Plus with the fighters being able to use so many techniques this also brings the questions of fitness to mind.

In essence every fighter within MMA has the ability to beat any of his opposition if they can utalise the correct strategy which more often than not is to knock the other guy out.

As for jabs knocking someone out i think the recent Hightower vs Rudeboy ended because of a straight left that connected right on the button and effectively stopped Hightowers ability to defend himself. Again it is all down to fighter preference and what they feel comfortable with, I myself like to use my jab to set up takedowns and combinations and if the chance arises for me to land that big power shot then i will try my best to execute and take the chance when presented with it.

The best or should i say most efficient strike i currently see in MMA is Anderson Silva. The guy leads with a good strong jab and then works his clinch game from there and he's destroyed his last 4 opponents in the first round, he really does demonstarte a rounded game. and he has a professional boxing record of 1-0-0

boxers can stand more sideways i think, because they only have to worry about punches. thus they can really get alot of rotation on their punches. they dont have to worry about clinching, eating knees and elbows, or being thrown. a kickboxer or mma guy has to be a bit more mobile, and have to be able to move farther faster to avoid kicks and shoot attempts, as well as to be able to throw his kicks. he must be able to do anything he wants from his stance, shoot, sprawl, kick, knee, strike, evade etc.

about the hook punches, a boxing coach once told me that if the opponent is at your maximum reach you should use a vertical fist to assure your big knuckles are making contact, your arm actually becomes weaker when you turn it over horizontal while extended that far. but that if hes in close..the vertical hook has no power and you really need the twist to dig it in. in either case, one prominent feature is trying to land your big knuckles on his face, or body. also if you watch not necessarily a boxing match, but a boxing coach teaching a hook for example, they tell you to pivot all the way, if you do that to a thai fighter or mmatist you are in serious trouble. so the rules really dictate what kind of tactics you use.

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you can do anything you want to...you just cant always do it aloneto ask is a moments shame, not to ask, and remain ignorant is a lifelong shame

Quote:also if you watch not necessarily a boxing match, but a boxing coach teaching a hook for example, they tell you to pivot all the way, if you do that to a thai fighter or mmatist you are in serious trouble. so the rules really dictate what kind of tactics you use.

This is where the cross training from boxing strikes to Thai strikes are needed as all Thai strikes come from the core and generate a lot of force. Again this is a subtle difference in technique but it can make or break a fight.

about the hook punches, a boxing coach once told me that if the opponent is at your maximum reach you should use a vertical fist to assure your big knuckles are making contact, your arm actually becomes weaker when you turn it over horizontal while extended that far. but that if hes in close..the vertical hook has no power and you really need the twist to dig it in. in either case, one prominent feature is trying to land your big knuckles on his face, or body.

That's true. Distance typically determines if the fist is vertical or horizontal. I think you're more vulnerable when throwing hooks either way, unless you've got good wrestling. Just a thought.

From I have learnt in MMA/NHB you have to be more of a two fisted fighter.Well,basicaly,be able to use both hands to strike,to clinch,to pummel for position,to defend the clinch,to tie up,to defend tie ups,to control their head if you can when you sprawl etc etc.You have to have your hands ready to do it all ,fast.

Not only that..but be able to kick and defend kicks and grapple and defend grappling.

Thats the big difference which then changes your aproach to your stance and body positioning.And that will effect boxing technique and tactics how you generate power as a boxer.

Edited by matxtx (12/29/0707:05 PM)

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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

about the hook punches, a boxing coach once told me that if the opponent is at your maximum reach you should use a vertical fist to assure your big knuckles are making contact, your arm actually becomes weaker when you turn it over horizontal while extended that far. but that if hes in close..the vertical hook has no power and you really need the twist to dig it in. in either case, one prominent feature is trying to land your big knuckles on his face, or body.

That's true. Distance typically determines if the fist is vertical or horizontal. I think you're more vulnerable when throwing hooks either way, unless you've got good wrestling. Just a thought.

What's the reason you think you need better wrestling in this instance? Is it because you've now move hips away from being squared with the opponent?

What's the reason you think you need better wrestling in this instance? Is it because you've now move hips away from being squared with the opponent?

Thats definitely a big part of it. Obviously If your hips aren't squared its much more difficult to use them to sprawl. This is why I don't really like kicking all that much either. I mean its hard enough to prevent from becoming a three-legged table, never mind when you WILLINGLY become one, lol.

And while this may seem overly simplistic, when the elbows move away from the body as they do when throwing a good hook, the attack zones are exposed (Greco's five major attack or "danger" zones of wrestling). Those elbows come up and now the body is exposed for underhooks or body locks.

A classic example of this was the fight between Royce Gracie and Matt Hughes. They clinched up and Royce attempted to punch out of a more neutral position. The elbow came away from the body, Hughes shot a duck-under (one of the most basic moves in wrestling), took his back and subsequently took him down and proceeded to beat him at his own game. All of this happened simply because Royce moved his elbow away from his body at the wrong time (and of all people, Royce was trying to punch within the clinch instead of trying to get Hughes down).

In my opinion, unless you are world class, it's safer to stay with more straight line punching where distance can be used and where you can more easily minimize the vulnerability of exposing those attack zones.

Straight punching can be used at a greater distance, just outside of reach where you (or your opponent) have to take a step in to fire. Your level can be little lower to close that window and you're more squared on. I believe this makes it much safer from which to strike.

Hooks are in tight. If you get dominant position you can get away with more obviously. Watch guys like Couture use short, chopping uppercuts, hooks and overhands when he's got that collar tie or an underhook. He can do this because he's obtained good position first. If you have a neutral position or worse, an inferior position, trying to punch will just get you dropped (per Royce) against a good wrestler.

Hell, some of those guys (Sherk for example) can time and shoot under a quick jab, so you can imagine that turning your hips off from a hook or exposing that attack zone for even a second will have you fighting off of your back!

The smaller, faster guys like Sherk can shoot in and drop you in a split second. Minimizing the danger is critical IMO. Just a few thoughts....

Great videos. Try throwing hooks and doing ANYTHING but keeping your hips squared on and your elbows tight against good grappler and that's basically what happens. Against guys with speed on their shots, even straight punching will open you up if your timing isn't perfect. That's why you have to have a grappling game. If you're not by now (here in almost 2008) training grappling and are sincerely interested in self-defense/preservation, you should probably think that there is something wrong with you. Seriously.

Quote:Great videos. Try throwing hooks and doing ANYTHING but keeping your hips squared on and your elbows tight against good grappler and that's basically what happens. Against guys with speed on their shots, even straight punching will open you up if your timing isn't perfect. That's why you have to have a grappling game. If you're not by now (here in almost 2008) training grappling and are sincerely interested in self-defense/preservation, you should probably think that there is something wrong with you. Seriously.

I suppose your just generalising but I am working on my grappling game John.

And I agree. Extremely good points for further researchas usual from you,John.

I find it easier to see something being used for real than to follow a description or a demo.

I suppose your just generalising but I am working on my grappling game John.

Absolutely I am generalizing. I realize that not everyone has the time and opportunity to work on everything.

I think it should be said that grappling training doesn't necessarily mean that one has to become a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc. Obviously that isn't a bad thing. However, it just means adding grappling into your striking program. If you just added the clinch, the sprawl and an understanding of basic guard work and how to disengage back to your feet from the ground, that would be enough to compliment a strong striking game.

Certainly the more one can do of anything, the better. Sometimes just shoring up some weak areas is sufficient.

One thing you can do is have people learn a basic double leg and create a drill. Have your partner wear headgear as you move around and try to hit him while he attempts to shoot in on your legs. That alone will do wonders for your ability to stay on your feet.

After you have done this a bit, add the clinch to the drill. Have people attempt to tie up with you as you avoid and strike. Then mix the two. A month of this will make anyone much harder to take down.

Quote:

And I agree. Extremely good points for further researchas usual from you,John.

I can't take credit for a thing brother, but I appreciate the kind words. I just steal things I like and use them for good training.

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I find it easier to see something being used for real than to follow a description or a demo.

That always helps. Those videos were two very spot-on illustrations of the points I was trying to make.

It would be helpful for everyone to understand the 5 attack zones and learn to defend them. I think that's very worthwhile time spent if you're a striker or a grappler.

Concerning straight punches,iv taken on the ideas of Steve Morris where the punches are cyclonic and come back to you rather than straight out.It means your are less likely to be out of position if you miss or leave gaps like Jkogas mentioned and are always set body position wise to sprawl or whatever to defend against grappling.Also you can hit fast and powerfull and often,if done right.There are probably clips of him doing it on his youtube page.Worth checking out for striking in an MMA/NHB setting.

Its also done on his low kick so it comes back to you making it easier to sprawl and keep good defence.

_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Quote:Concerning straight punches,iv taken on the ideas of Steve Morris where the punches are cyclonic and come back to you rather than straight out.It means your are less likely to be out of position if you miss or leave gaps like Jkogas mentioned and are always set body position wise to sprawl or whatever to defend against grappling.Also you can hit fast and powerfull and often,if done right.There are probably clips of him doing it on his youtube page.Worth checking out for striking in an MMA/NHB setting.

Its also done on his low kick so it comes back to you making it easier to sprawl and keep good defence.

I cant realy envisage what your saying. I would need to see a video. I think John covered a fair bit by stating getting in to a good position before throwing punches and which punches to throw and what might happen if they are thrown a certain way.

Also I should imagine by studying the grappling game(more) a person will be aware of what might happen and if at the worse, and it goes wrong, they have a counter ready. The mind boggels between the difference of trained and un trained fighters.

If and when I am attacked I hope they are untrained and they arent aware of all this make a person aware stuff.

Perhaps the most important thing of all is just being aware of vulnerabilities. Having that awareness is the first line of defense imo. Many people have no idea how and where they are in trouble until they're in trouble. It's kind of obvious but, people don't know what they don't know.

Kind of like the clinch. If you're (speaking generally again) clinched up with someone that has a good clinch game and you've never wrestled, you won't even know where you're in trouble until you're in the air and landing on your head.

Again, one good way of staying out of trouble is to stay with the straight shots, keep the elbows tight in the clinch, learn the basic swim drill, practice it, practice breaking the clinch safely (knowing that your opponent WILL hit you on the break) and train that continuously. Drill fundamentals ENDLESSLY.

Its best seen and shown,live if possible.There are you tube clips.I cant do justice to it to attempt to explain as Im still learning and it works best as part of a whole rather than on its own.If that makes sense haha.

Iv seen it explained as like how a horse runs,it tears up the ground with its hoofs using a cyclonic motion or circular motion.Its fairly natural to do too.And of course its total body motion not just the arms,or there would be no power.

Its not Wing Chun and it can be done in a straight blast or not.You can go back,forward in all directions.

Its a sound principle.

Here is a clip on 'posting' on one side when puching which has bits about the cyclonic punching in it.