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Yep, scary youth on OL and WRs. Defense will need to carry team in 2014. Devin - again - will be Superman and determine the offense. Watching this Winston kid tonight you can just see how a top end QB supersedes everything else.

Green/Smith in theory could do what Fitz/Green do, and I expect Funchess to move out more to WR as our leading returner will be (gulp) Chesson. Butt hopefully grabs that TE starting spot. OL I am afraid is going to call for year 4 of the spread concept rather than beloved manball. 2015 might be the first year they can implement what they want to in terms of offensive styling... and with Shane rather than Gardner there won't really be a choice.

I am not forgetting anyone. Darboh has zero catches in his football career at college, Chesson has ...7? Darboh a "star"? How about we start at Darboh "a competent starter" first. Until people do stuff on a field against opponents I could care less about their practice talk. If practice talk meant much Ben Braden would be starting over Shofield or at least wresting away a guard spot, and Frank Clark would be All American. I hope Darboh is the man but he still shows up next year losing an entire fall of reps and practice time and zero catches. I hope he turns into Jerry Rice next year but we have a big fat unknown at that position outside of Funchess. Chesson is a special teams ace but has yet to prove much on the field. I do expect improvement out of him but again... show it to me.

I would think year's experience would have people limiting their expectations for 'stardom' for freshman, rs freshman, and even rs sophomores. Our stars this year have been the upperclassmen. The underclassmen have made contributions but Blake, Gallon, Devin and I guess Lewan have been the 'stars'. Funchess could be the one exception but he has had 1.5 games of "star" and a lot of other games getting blown up as a blocker with 1-2 catches. But I guess every spring/summer the same hope arrives - and maybe we will hit on one very early in their career.

As for the defense needing to carry the 2014 team my comment has a lot more to do with the OL, unless you think Magnuson/Braden as RS Sophomores > Lewan/Schofield. If Devin plays like ND/Indiana Devin AND Borges calls plays that cater to Devin it can offset a lot of these issues ... but one Devin injury and the 1 man offense show goes away. Devin is just that important to the 2013 / 2014 teams.

As for your comment on the WRs at the end, would you take 1 Gallon or 5 Darbohs/Chessons/or whomever. A star is much more important than a lot of "solid players". Hopefully Funchess is the star but it really doesnt matter to me if player A is a 15% improvement over Jeremy Jackson. We need playmakers in the WR corp. Gallon is a bad a$$ playmaker. Not easy to find.

I said "IMO" he (Darboh) was going to be a star. I don't backdown from that. Now I don't mean Braylon his senior year or even Gallon now...but I mean legitimate contributor.

Your practice talk rant is pointless as well, I'm pretty sure everyone wants to see guys prove it on the field in a game. However, you act as if there has never been someone who's redshirtted come in and play well. ARE YOU WATCHING FSU RIGHT NOW? LOOK AT THEIR QUARTERBACK.

You would've been the guy talking down Jameis last year because he hadn't played a game.

And lastly, I said take Gallon out. I was comparing next year's potential to the 3 guys that I listed. I didn't even list Dileo. I think next year's group will be better than this year's group minus Gallon. You may disagree, but it's not an outrageous statement...in fact, someone a few posts down just said the same thing.

"I think next year's group will be better than this year's group minus Gallon."

I assume you exclude Funchess because you have him as a TE next year not a WR.

So by your statement you are saying the top 3 next year will exceed Dileo, Chesson and Joe Reynolds, who have combined for 18 catches. By definition whatever group we throw out next year will beat that by a country mile because we need to have WRs who start next year with new names - and someone has to, by definition, catch Devin's passes.

That is like saying, I expect next year's TEs to improve over this year's group... excluding Funchess. Sure if we exclude the (1st/2nd) best player on the field for the offense we can expect everyone else to be better I guess. It misses the point. You said you are not worried about the offense - I am simply saying we lose a boatload of production and its asking a lot for a bunch of underclassmen to take over that.

As for Winston yes - I stand by my point, until he does it on the field it doesnt matter. I dont recall you calling for Winston's stardom this past July or did I miss it? For every Winston there are plenty of guys who don't do it, are good but not great, are average, or are bombs. Who knows which are which. Did you think William Campbell was a star in the making as a freshman / sophomore 5 years ago?

Which is why I say it doesnt matter until they do it on the field. You are declaring "stardom" for Darboh based on nothing that I can see other than practice talk. That's a big leap and reminds me of talk about Dymonte 8 months ago on these same boards.

I did exclude Funchess, but that's just another weapon for the offense that I didn't mention. My point was simply that I don't think our offense will be as bad as you think. At least not because we lack players at the skill positions.

If we suck on offense next year, I think it's because our OLine sucks. I think our WRs will be fine. I think our TEs will be great. RB worries me, but I'm hopefully someone will emerge from that pile of "average." Wouldn't shock me if it was Drake Johnson either.

The defense may not have to carry the offense like you seem to think. Just because you haven't seen the players who will play next year produce doesn't mean they won't. Winston was my point.

So while we won't have Gallon...the WRs we will have could easily be better than everyone else currently on the team. And you don't have to have 1 standout guy. In fact (at WR) I'd rather have 3-4 guys who are really good than one guy who is great and everyone else below average. Are we going to get 300+ yards from a WR? Likely no...in fact, let's just go ahead and say it. Hell no. But as a group they could certainly be as good.

And it's not a matter of "calling" who's going to be good and who isn't...it's a matter of realizing that you have to start somewhere and some guys can come out of nowhere and produce. Manziel was another guy. We've got a ton of potential at WR and I believe there is a good chance that at least a couple of those guys are going to produce.

As for Will Campbell...no, or Derrick Green if you were wondering. Stars don't mean much to me. Dymonte and Braden had hype to play, I certainly didn't think either was going to be a world-beater this early in their career. But just because they haven't played much this year doesn't mean someone else that we have yet to see won't burst onto the seen.

Edit: or not even "burst onto the scene," but just be a solid contributor.

i think his practice talk comment and his comment re expectations were directed at those fans who really need to temper expectations and understand this is not the UM team of late 90s and early 2000s -- theyre not fresh off a national title and they have not stacked 5-6 elite classes on top of each other. and the comment regarding jameis winston does not suit the argument....hes a 5 star beast and an incredible athlete and as of late (or the last 25 years) FSU has traditionally been a much better and more consistent team than UM with more talent and more future pros. winston stepping in as a "star" in the only true sense of the word is much more likely, given his rep and state of FSU program, than any UM redshirts stepping in as "stars" as redshirt freshmen. sorry thats just a fact. peppers is a future pro and the only dude capable of stepping in as a "star" but DB and returns are much different animal than QB in terms of impact. takes a while to turn around a team with questionable image and history in eyes of current 16 yr olds and a very average roster so while hoke has made strides and his recruiting looks good according to those who rate recruting, this squad is not there yet....certainly have not reached a point of next man up depth. were all fans here and we all want UM to win big, just try to be somewhat unbiased and temper your expectations a tad -- until its proven on the field, all these players are just competing and being physical and working their tails off, in hoke speak. the only dude truly deserving of "star" hype is peppers bc he will instatnly become the most athletic player on their roster and actually will be a "star in true sense of the word

Joey Bosa (freshman) appears to have moved into a starting spot for OSU this week, in a very highly rated DL rotation (every kid is a 4 or 5 star). It is asking a lot to have a freshman start on the line but it can be done. Bosa is a bad a$$ with a ridiculous motor - not sure of Hand's makeup as he plays everything close to the vest. But I think with Green and all these highly rated kids we should hold off on putting anyone in the starting role as a freshman until they come on campus and prove who exactly they are outside of their "stars". Dymonte Thomas is another great example - per this board he would have won the starting job at safety from Wilson and/or taken that nickel spot over...has not happened.

I haven't heard much about Nkemdiche - is he kicking butt down there in the SEC? Clowney is a once in a decade type players like Julius Peppers. I don't see Hand among that type of crowd. If see Hand more around the level of what Adolphus Washington does at OSU, which we should be quite happy with.

Given the fact that Peppers will be a freshman it is highly unlikely he plays both ways right off the bat. As good as he is in high school it's a whole other thing playing college ball and to expect him to learn two positions while also juggling school work is unreal. I would love to be wrong but I doubt I will be. Charles Woodson didn't play both ways as a freshman and didn't even start until halfway through the season I believe. Expectations for Peppers to come in and be a two way player out the gate are unreal but like I said I hope I'm wrong because he is a dynamo.

But I don't think a few snaps is really going to hurt his progression. 10-15 plays on offense for a guy who probably isn't going to start at CB on defense with Countess and a senior Taylor shouldn't be a big deal.

It'll just depend on if he's good enough, but I don't think he will because I don't think Hoke would do something like that. Even though (if he's good enough) Hoke should. Again, 10-15 plays and playing as the nickelback isn't "overkill" in my book. Now if he was a full-time starter at CB, then maybe I'd change my opinion.

I bet he starts by halfway through the year, at least at the NB position. Remember, we're rotating Countess in as the NB when we have 5 DBs. That could open room for Peppers on the outside if we're willing to trust him.

I also wouldn't be too surprised to see more rotation at the DB positions -- Stribling is a hair away from making a lot of plays. He's not finishing the plays, but he's at least in position to and he's just a true freshman. Jourdan Lewis is also getting a good amount of PT.

Step 1 of making plays is being in the position to make plays. Stribling is almost always in that position, which is very encouraging. A year of weight room, getting some more leg strength to make those jumps, and strength to wrest the ball away from bigger WRs, and he really could make some serious strides as his instincts seem to be very very good. I am excited about him. Hey and all that for the price of 3 stars....

Caris was a tall skinny freshman who wasn't quite ready early on. He had the potential, but he just could get the speed of the game quite yet. He had a coupe of game winners that were hit in his face...then it came tournament time vs. KU in the Sweet 16 and he was the one again who had to defend the last shot. That time, they missed.

Stribling is going to get better and better, but he's there, he's in position. Just have to finish the play.

I'm with this guy (Brown Bear). Kids head is going to be swimming getting on campus, learning "school things" and trying to pick up a defense 50x as complicated as he was exposed to in HS ... he will probably be learning nickel AND CB (heck maybe potentially safety) not just one position. Not to mention learning about the opponents offense and their tendencies each week.

But yeah throw him on offense too - why not, he is superhuman. ;) What's another 10 plays between friends. Dymonte Thomas was able to do it... no problem.

Dymonte has been a highly touted high end recruit who many thought due to Wilson's struggles would come in and steal the job soon as a freshman. OR "worst case" take the nickel job outright, until he moved to safety as a sophomore. He is not at Peppers level in hype but he was in the next tier. As of a week or two ago there was even a thread here saying he should be getting snaps on offense.

Kid thus far is on a milk carton, outside of special teams.

There are isolated incidents across the country of kids coming in and excelling as freshman. For every one of those there are 200 who sit and learn or play and struggle. Each time you try to point to the 200, someone points out the 1 and say "it is possible, why do you not think so - it happens". Yes it happens... but the expectation is interesting.

I am looking at our 2013 class skill position on offense and the only one getting even modest playing time is Green. And it is minor. No one else of all the offensive recruits other than Butt and now after today Bosch are getting any real playing time on offense. Just trying to frame the realistic probabilities - maybe Peppers and Hand are the Winstons, who knows. Counting on it, or expecting it - at a position that is not even the main role - is asking a lot.

The majority of freshman aren't as good as the top players in the country.

A much better comparison would be to compare Peppers to past top 3 recruits in the country. I think you would find that many of those guys play. I'm too lazy to do the research (says the guy who made a depth chart for 10 months from now). However, I don't think I'd be far off.

While I agree, I'd also point out that Magnuson playing now might help some. Of course, him playing means Kalis largely isn't playing, but at least we'll have another game with a few full games under his belt.

He isn't proven either. I have confidence that the athleticism Darboh, Cheeson, Norfleet, Harris, and Jones bring will make up for the lack of experience. There is a lot of size and speed in that group. I suspect we will see Funchess flanked out early and often.

What have you seen from Northfleet as a WR that I have missed? With how lacking in depth we were pre-Funchess move, he would have had a chance to play some earlier in the year if he was going to be a significant piece. With Dileo out today that went to the seniors, and I still didnt see any Northfleet action at WR. I just don't see evidence to say he is going to come in and next year be a significant contributor at WR.

Aside from Jones we have 2 other WR would redshirted this year - lets hope 1 or 2 of those guys hit next year. And yes Drake get 15-25 catches next year to start his career.

I didn't speculate as to who would transfer, I didn't speculate as to who wouldn't be asked back as a 5th year senior either. I would agree that is tasteless...but I didn't do that so I don't see your problem.

Mr. Yost is known around these parts as the killer of young careers.... just with the stroke of the (virtual) pen. It is like the Roman "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" - once Yost excludes you from a depth chart you might as well stick your head into the mouth of the lions in the gladiator ring - you are done. He is just that powerful ....

You speculatively are killing the career of every senior who is ursurped by a junior or underclassmen and the subsequent cascade of classes. You don't get points for including Poole, who hasn't been with the team since late June - that's just shoddy work.

My point was that while its normal to speculate, its not normal to share your speculation with everyone. I'm probably in the minority, but I'd ask that you carefully consider what the young men on the team may think about you writing them off when you post this.

You're drunk stop posting. Or go to the drunk thread...there has to be one, it's 11:49 EST.

First off "killing?" Haha.

Secondly...you really think Justice Hayes gives a damn about what I think? You think he's in his apartment right now crying at my depth chart for NEXT year that I made in OCTOBER of THIS YEAR? If so, Justice or any other guy shouldn't be playing to begin with.

It's football, not every upperclassman plays. And it's not like I put every underclassman at the top of the depth chart. In fact, I don't think I put any.

Since I have so much power, I'd like to say that Borges needs to stick to the shutgun and Mattison needs to disguise his defenses better.

Why am I not getting paid as a 6-figure assistant coach since I have all of this power over who plays and who doesn't? This is a big responsibility. I should be compensated accordingly.

First, I'm glad you have successfully mastered googling and linking. Second, I'm not being sensitive--just very tired of everyone turning the page on this season and on these players. We have "fire Borges" threads every other day and this thread just smacks of 'when we're done with these guys who we don't think are very good but have to put up with' and that's in opposition to what fans of Team 134 should be thinking about. In general, I like your posts, you are enthusiastic and positive. I just don't like the idea of selling out this team. We aren't going to play for an NC, that's clear to most, and maybe that's why the Penn State loss was so hard on everyone, they still had visions of that - whatever.

Bo's "The Team" speech was given to a two loss squad in 1983 that did not win the Big Ten (Illinois did). People often gloss over that if they remember the context at all. It doesn't matter, because the point of that speech is solidarity. As alumni and fans, we have a role to play and I'm not ready to mail it in by fast forwarding to next season.

You said I was killing the careers of upperclassmen. That's what we're talking about.

You're the only person who got butt-hurt and took a projected depth chart as a negative. Did I conjure up bad memories from when you were in high school and got passed by freshman or something?

Seriously. It makes absolutely no sense how this could possibly killing the career of anyone. It's a projection, it's not fact. Even if I was Coach Brady Hoke why would this matter? It's October.

Killing the career of someone, even in a figurative frame of reference would be leaving them off. It would be saying that I think someone is going to transfer or asked to leave. I think both of those will happen, they do every year to every team. However it would not be in good taste to specuate on who those players are.

Again, I even included Poole, who, last I heard, was supposed to be back next year (even if I may think that it is doubtful...and I'm not saying that I do).

Are you also upset that I didn't include all of the walk-ons, but I did include some?

It's division 1 college football. This isn't 1st grade, everyone plays, everyone wins. Quit "sissifying" something that isn't even real. It's a "waaay too early" depth chart by a fan who had too much time on his hands. Leave it at that.

Yes and yes. Since the latter Carr years it has been a question in my mind. Especially seeing some kids be nice players at UM but then go to the pros and take it another notch. The position coaching over the years has not been top flight - and this year raises some more questions, specifically on the offense. If this "bumper crop" of kids of 2012-2014 (allowing for the typical busts) just generates another series of 3 and 4 loss seasons in a not impressive Big 10, we'll have to ask the same questions about player development. Impossible to tell now since so much of the talent are underclassmen. We'll know in 24 months.

I'm more concerned about the DTs more than SS, only because we haven't seen much out of them. WDE will be a strength and I think Wormley will be a big time player (he's starting to show signs already), but QWash will be a loss. Not unreplaceable, but to be elite those interior guys need to step up.

Obviously it's really early for this, but it's interesting that we might return 10 offensive starters in 2015... with the other one being the QB. That can't possibly happen very often in college football.

Now you're right, that's waay WAAAY too early. But look at the defense as well and imagine Hand and McDowell on that DL. Plus Mone, Hurst and Poggi in the middle.

You've got a ton of other young DL that will be juniors seniors at that point. So you'll have a nice mix of vets and youth on the DL. Almost everyone will have at least some playing experience.

At LB you have Ross and Bolden who start or gets starters snaps. SLB will be interesting, but you have to think someone will emerge...we've had a lot of success at that position.

CB you're talking a senior Countess and Peppers, and if Peppers is a stretch, you still have Stribling, Lewis and guys who are redshirting now.

At S you have Wilson and the winner of the SS battle NEXT year, so it'll be a returning starter at that point.

We'll need to find a kicker, we'll have a couple of guys to choose from. Kenny Allen looks to be the punter.

In the end, and it's a HUGE IF...but it'll rely on Morris and the OTs, everywhere else should be pretty doggone good. We also won't have to "youth" excuse anymore. Speaking of youth...you'll have George Campbell, Damien Harris and some of these top recruits that we're getting in the '15 class to provide more depth and competition.

AND our schedule is favorable. No Nebraska or Wisconsin...we get MSU and OSU at home. Non-conference schedule is certainly winable.

IMO 2015 is the year for Hoke to put up or shut up. By that I mean a 1 loss season. There will be no more youth excuses. The trench players will be upperclassmen. A few "stars" will be scattered across the team (in theory). RBs Green, Smith and freshman Harris. Our WR depth will be sick - the only caveat is who Shane Morris is. He will be in year 3 and probably still be limited in playing time unless Devin gets hurt this year or next but he wont be a RS freshman and we are seeing what guys now do at QB across the country with 1 year in the program and very limited playing time before they start (Texas A&M, FSU, et al) In theory that offense should be "Alabama like" where you plug and play a solid QB in it. The schedule is also favorable as you noted - both rivals at home, and the toughest road game is a hampered PSU or I guess Indiana.

If by 2015 we are still registering 3 loss seasons it means we still have no right to be discussed like OSU and we need to seriously take a look at the coaching from top to bottom as a decade of not being in the same discussion as OSU is not what this program is about.

Wow. I count just 6 senior starters leaving after next year including Beyer because he gets starter minutes and Taylor even though he's gonna be in a dog fight for his spot. Only Gardner departs on offense. The season after next is going to be good, like crazy good.

The thought of having to replace Lewan and Schofield scares the crap out of me. If our O-Line is this bad WITH those 2 guys, imagine how bad it could be WITHOUT them. Unless of course, the rest of the line improves a ton over this season and in the off season. I was impressed with Bosch and Magnuson, and Kalis for the most part. So that's a start.

Indiana has a CMU level of defense. The OL looked fine versus CMU. I expect a return to the nighmares against just about every opponent still remaining. Even NW for how shoddy of a defense it has, penetrated versus OSU. I am just praying Borges saw the light this game and returns to what the deam does well. We tried 6-8 pro style plays versus Indiana and even Indiana blew them up. The OL will remain a concern this year and all of 2014. Unfortunately.

That said, I do wish we could fill our student section for non-rivalry games. I'd have no issues with the athletics department only having a student section for rivalry and big non-conference games. For every other game I'd reserve a certain amount of rows for the diehards and let every else mix in with the regular crowd. Prices would be the same, but there just may not be as many seats available.

This would never work though because (correct me if I'm wrong), students buy season tickets...so there's no way of knowing who is going to show up and who isn't. The only way my idea would work is if you discontinued the season ticket (except for those first few rows) and offered a mini-plan that included the 4 big home games.

I just think there's away to allow students to go to ND, MSU, OSU + 1 more game and go nuts with the maize pom poms and be loud and be awesome...and ALSO fill their empty seats vs. the non-marquee teams when they don't show up.

I think the problem is everyone has allow their feelings and politics come into play and it's turned into a bigger deal than necessary. Just make a decision that is going to pack the stadium and let's roll.

I don't think you punish the students for not showing up to the games vs. crap teams. I think you just accept that they're not going to show up and adjust accordingly. However, don't take away anything from the big games when they do come because it's working, those games are awesome and they look awesome on TV.

I'm rambling, but I don't hate students...but note that just because I don't hate students, doesn't mean I hate the administration either. In fact, I like both.

I don't get into those long student not showing up/student ticket threads because I don't know enough about the situation. Also, like I said, everyone is too emotional. You have too many "Get off my lawn" people with their "if I was a student" or "when I was a student" comment and you have too many students who think they're all "civil rights in the 60s" or "I'm taking a stand."

So after thinking about my suggestion...please tell me what why it would or wouldn't work. Note that I don't care who I piss off, that's not the point. If I'm the AD, I'm not afraid to piss people off. After a few years it'll be the "norm" and no one will remember. The objective is to fill the stands for every game in this exercise.

What if we changed the majority of student season tickets and said they're only valid for the 4 biggest games of the year. I don't care who choses which 4, let the Student Government pick them. But you only get 4.

For every other home game, we'll open up 75% of the student section as GA seating. The general public will have a chance to buy those seats at one rate, students can buy those seats at the student rate. When they're gone, they're gone.

For the other 25% we'll sell year long student season tickets and track who buys them. You're only allowed to miss 1 game if you buy this package, if you miss a 2nd, you forfeit your seats and we can resell at a prorated rate to someone else. I really don't care if a refund is provided because this exercise isn't really about money. Obviously if "something happens" and you follow the proper protocol, you can give up your seats at no penalty.

Again, the goal with this "solution" (that may be absolutely awful) is to fill seats, but also not change ANYTHING for the big games.

Hell, if you scroll up you'll see that one poster got all soft just because I posted a potential depth chart 10 months in advance. Apparantly I'm killing careers by doing it.

Keep in mind that Ash may be our #1 and starting NG all winter, spring and summer because Pipkins tore his ACL. Paskorz is getting some good minutes as a blocking TE now that Funchess is mainly playing WR.

I see even more youth taking over. I see Stribling taking over for Taylor and Peppers at nickel or maybe even Thomas at nickel and Peppers at SS because he already has the size, is physical, and likes to hit. I also expect Wormley to hold down SDE assuming he stays injury free. I think Funchess stays outside as WR 1 and Butt and Williams stay at TE. Butt is already a better blocker than Funchess and Funchess will be our best WR. I also expect Hayes and/or Norfleet get more packages to take advantage of their skills.

This really makes you notice what a big deal that injury to Pipkins is. We're hoping he's at least a reliable starter next year (if not an impact player) and he's going to be coming off of a serious injury. Whether or not he's as good by the start of next season as he was when he got hurt, that injury definitely limits the development he could've made over the rest of this season and in spring ball. Huge shame for him and for the team.