Posted - 2007.06.27 15:12:00 -
[1]
This is a noob question but how many feel that Amarr ships should be fitted with mwds considering how cap dependent the race is?

I have been looking through the ship setup indexes and popular opinion seems to be a mixed bag and the type of ship doesn't seem to be a factor. Some people won't fly without a mwd because they insist an AB is just too slow for pvp while others say Amarr can't afford to cough up the Cap when they use one.

I can understand both sides of that argument but was wondering what the experts who fly Amarr think?

Posted - 2007.06.27 15:15:00 -
[2]
It depends on the ship and situation. Some amarr ships are just not suited for speed, considering the cap dependency. My loose rule of thumb: If you are fitting for close combat fit a MWD, for long range, AB is fine. I admit I am not the best ship fitter around, so please take my advice with a grain of salt :D

Originally by:Billy SastardIt depends on the ship and situation. Some amarr ships are just not suited for speed, considering the cap dependency. My loose rule of thumb: If you are fitting for close combat fit a MWD, for long range, AB is fine. I admit I am not the best ship fitter around, so please take my advice with a grain of salt :D

I agree that Amarr will never be a speedy race but it seems like that would be even more of a reason to fit a mwd since their ships are easier to escape from due to their slower base speeds.

I should have also clarified in the OP that I was thinking more in terms of solo PvP.

inorder to fit an mwd on an amarr ship, you either have to drop a gun or use rigs. And the rest is cap management at a lvl that would make any other race cry like no other.

there are some amarr ships which do well with an mwd, like the curse, and pilgrim and even the zealot. But for a battleship a mwd will plague your ship with cap problems

as they say :) playing amarr is playing eve on hard mode :D

I really don udnerstand why people say that. As logn as the FC knows that the FLEET speed is AB not MWD he can counter msot of the shortcommings by simply not throwing itself into a bubble. Very very rare times I escaped soemthing with an MWD (on a fleet BS) that an AB would not make the same.

Posted - 2007.06.27 15:41:00 -
[6]
You need an MWD for exactly the reason you pointed out: If someone hasnt got an MWD he's going to die in bubble camps. No MWD thus limits the fights you can take on even more. -> MWD is needed for any group serious about fighting.

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Originally by:Elve SorrowYou need an MWD for exactly the reason you pointed out: If someone hasnt got an MWD he's going to die in bubble camps. No MWD thus limits the fights you can take on even more. -> MWD is needed for any group serious about fighting.

As I said. as long as the FC knows the fleet is not MWD fitted. The only drawback is that he can't be so offensive. But on defensive Ops its not that necessary.

Posted - 2007.06.27 16:03:00 -
[8]Edited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:03:46Like camping a gate all day long, only to have a enemy fleet warp in on you with MWD. They'll then just burn away from you and you will follow in AB speed and you will as a result die. Because they can keep the distance to pop your tacklers and you wont be able to jump put because you are agessed and if the enemy FC is competent he will drop a buble on you, wich means that you are ****** either way.---------------------------------------------

Originally by:IHurricaneEdited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:03:46Like camping a gate all day long, only to have a enemy fleet warp in on you with MWD. They'll then just burn away from you and you will follow in AB speed and you will as a result die. Because they can keep the distance to pop your tacklers and you wont be able to jump put because you are agessed and if the enemy FC is competent he will drop a buble on you, wich means that you are ****** either way.

On that situation if you try to follow you are being dumb and deserve to die no matter what you have fitted.

Posted - 2007.06.27 16:37:00 -
[10]Edited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:36:42Since you are bubled you can't warp away, so you'll have to jump through the gate. Now using normal tactics the other side of that gate will be bubled. Wich means that your AB fleet will have to either reaproach the gate or fly out of the buble.

If you do the first, you will then have to warp in on the enemy gang, if you do the latter, the enemy gang will MWD back to the gate jump and kill you off, while you reaproach the gate or fly out of the buble.

This means that the enemy gang will just slowly kill you.---------------------------------------------

Originally by:IHurricaneEdited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:36:42Since you are bubled you can't warp away, so you'll have to jump through the gate. Now using normal tactics the other side of that gate will be bubled. Wich means that your AB fleet will have to either reaproach the gate or fly out of the buble.

If you do the first, you will then have to warp in on the enemy gang, if you do the latter, the enemy gang will MWD back to the gate jump and kill you off, while you reaproach the gate or fly out of the buble.

This means that the enemy gang will just slowly kill you.

If you are camping the gate and stay inside 15 km range of the camped gate with battleships(with no MWD) you are STUPID! Just use your brains!!!The ships that jump trough must be tacklers no BS!

Originally by:IHurricaneEdited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:45:42If the BS is off the gate in sniper postion, get a covert ops to get a warp in. Buble, dead battleships.

Btw, I did not understand what you ment with your last sentence. Ofc all of the enemy gang will jump in.

I mixed response to two posts in on one.. Got confusing.

Well if you are jumped in by covert ops sling, it makes ZERO difference if you have MWD or AB. ZERO nada... tacklers will get the ships, bubbles are just an extra. Also Snipers shoudl always keep scanning.. if you see a sabre appear in scanner.. just click warp.

Originally by:IHurricaneEdited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:45:42If the BS is off the gate in sniper postion, get a covert ops to get a warp in. Buble, dead battleships.

Btw, I did not understand what you ment with your last sentence. Ofc all of the enemy gang will jump in.

I mixed response to two posts in on one.. Got confusing.

Well if you are jumped in by covert ops sling, it makes ZERO difference if you have MWD or AB. ZERO nada... tacklers will get the ships, bubbles are just an extra. Also Snipers shoudl always keep scanning.. if you see a sabre appear in scanner.. just click warp.

Posted - 2007.06.27 21:15:00 -
[17]
I personally feel that an mwd on many amarr ships is a must generally because the falloff and tracking aren't great so range is important. some ships do struggle to fit them and i don't but i use one on my curse, zealot and absolution most of the time.

Posted - 2007.06.27 22:53:00 -
[18]Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/06/2007 22:53:11MWD is not so much a must for a BS, it is a nescessary requirement. BS's without MWD simply dont have the flexibility to survive long in todays PVP enviroment. Sad but true.

Posted - 2007.06.28 00:36:00 -
[20]
I have very little fleet experience, mostly small gang low sec roams or solo, but I must admit I never (literally NEVER) had a MWD fitted in fight. I understand the point of having it but IMHO the drawbacks are too severe. Here's my reasoning:

MWD will take 150 powergrid. That's a lot. It will also make Cap Booster a must. That's another 150 powergrid. Amarr guns use most powergrid in game. Furthermore I prefer having 2 reps (keeping in mind im in battlecruisers 80% of the time), experience made be believe I can't do any serious tanking with just 1- again very powergrid intensive plus needs cap booster even without MWD in the picture. In addition MWD reduces cap amount, thus reducing cap regeneration- 2 reps and lasers are very very cap intensive on their own, I don't need 25% cap penalty to run dry. Having a MWD on would strain it even further. Getting nossed in addition... I don't want to know.

Pros of MWD are from what I know these two: You can aproach your target rapidly in order to come to gun and web/scram range and you can use it as means of escaping.

As for aproaching, there's a catch. The other guy, if he's a pvper, will very likely be doing the same. Especially with everyone and his mother being Gallente/Minmatar among pvpers. They usually come to close range themselves. Removes the need to move at all. All you need is a web to keep them where they come of they own free will. If on the other hand the other guy has a ship that will keep out of web range, chances are you won't be fast enough even with MWD, since it's a vaga, curse, stabber, whatever. If the other guy is an innocent ratter/miner and you land 30km away... tough luck, you'll miss that kill.

Escaping, yes, AB or simply no speed mod at all won't do it, except maybe against Caldari, but with everyone and his mother being Gallente/Minmatar that doesn't sound that comforting. Here MWD is really a must if you want any chance to succeed at all. But, since you'll be webbed yourself, your opponent being Gallente/Minmatar having MWD as well and you running away meaning you already are in inferior position, with armor and probably cap too might as well mean you won't be able to run anyway. Still as I said, MWD gives you chance. Without it once you start losing you are dead. Also when you run into gatecamp without MWD you are dead as well.

Essentially in my experiance majority of people who will pose a serious threat will come to you on their own. They will have both MWD and web and will do half the job for you- all you need is web them back to make sure they stay where they are and your guns have no problem tracking them. Sacrificing cap and PG (and that means sacrificing both damage and tank) is in my oppinion not worthwile. You will increase your chances by having superior cap to your enemy, thus reducing the chances of having to use the MWD for that less glorious role. That's why I either dont fit a speed mod if ship has 3 medium slots or use afterburner if it has 4. If i start losing... at least it was a good fight.

Again, this is talking primarily about battlecruisers and up to a point frigates in low sec pvping. Don't have a lot of experience with battleships and even less with large gangs.

Originally by:IHurricaneEdited by: IHurricane on 27/06/2007 16:45:42If the BS is off the gate in sniper postion, get a covert ops to get a warp in. Buble, dead battleships.

Btw, I did not understand what you ment with your last sentence. Ofc all of the enemy gang will jump in.

I mixed response to two posts in on one.. Got confusing.

Well if you are jumped in by covert ops sling, it makes ZERO difference if you have MWD or AB. ZERO nada... tacklers will get the ships, bubbles are just an extra. Also Snipers shoudl always keep scanning.. if you see a sabre appear in scanner.. just click warp.

i guess you can allways pretend to know what your talking about

and you cn always pretend you knwo everythign and that pre tought setups wil be better on all situations.

I don 't fit MWD on any of my ships for a long time.. and don 't loose one in months of fleet warfare (use an fe nice Rep fleet AB that help me a lot ignore most firepower from fighters )

Posted - 2007.06.28 09:12:00 -
[23]
I have to agree with Vrabac on a number of points - Amarr with a MWD probably won't be able to chase someone (unless it's a speedfitted ship, but that's different) or run from them, assuming both sides are using MWD. And people will often pirate you themselves so you don't have to do the closing on them yourself.

You'll wish you had one whenever you land in a belt 25-30km away from your target. Getting there at 800ish m/sec (a frig with T2 AB, for example) just doesn't cut it - everyone who's not asleep will probably warp out already, while with a MWD, you'd already be on top of them. I get the same problem with a Wolf using a T2 AB.

Then again, without a AB, you've got a couple worries as well. First is, of course, cap considerations - cap is often already a problem. A cap booster doesn't fit on frigs/AFs, anyway, and they're my favourite pew-pew ships. Another problem is being webbed - you'll sometimes still be able to orbit cruisers even while webbed (especially if it's a langour or something) if you have a AB on, enabling you to evade most of the fire coming your way. You obviously don't want to go down that route with a MWD on. The AB can very easily permarun at 80% cap, and having the extra speed in a fight is very useful.

I don't know, a good part of my frigs is fitted with a AB, and a couple are fitted with a MWD, but I use the AB variants more. There were situations where the MWD powered versions would've died miserably, while the AB version did quite well, but there were situations which were the other way around, too.

Posted - 2007.06.28 16:16:00 -
[25]
With proper intel and smart play, sniper BBs can be without MWD. True.But MWD is flexibility to take a risk, which while I don't enjoy FCs that take crazy risks, is all part of the game. Of course, I always prefered the bubble bust method rather then the bubble - warp out - 20 mins of playing hard to get - and finally the great battle that lags out. It leads to escalations. I prefer coming into a bubble camp with some idea of what is fitted there and lighting up the place right there - more fun !!

Posted - 2007.06.28 18:21:00 -
[26]
If your battleships aren't all equipped with mwd, and you have to retreat back through a system with even a well placed small disruptor, that fleet chasing is more likely going to catch up and corn-cob you.

PS: amarr sucks, and until dev fixes it they are going to continue to suck.

Originally by:Nero Wingerthe only ship ingame that you do not fit MWDs on them are

1st: shuttles2nd: capital ships

enjoy

And Vrabac, you seem to mention all the reasons for fitting an mwd: getting in and maintaining range, escaping gatecamps, escaping when the turd hits the fan. And yet you fit an AB o.O. Yes the PG and cap issues are significant, but the above points far outweigh those.

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