I am over Muslim communities from the same locality celebrating Eid on three different days because they believe that “sighting the moon” in Saudi Barbaria is more accurate than astronomical observatory data. I am over British employers feeling obliged to accommodate this nonsense by giving Muslims days off at short notice due to uncertainty relating to the date.

I am over conservative members of my community trying to impose religious teachings, practices and gender segregation in community gatherings, weddings etc and expecting women to cover their hair during a prayer that none of us asked them to perform.

I am over the complete ignorance by Muslims and non Muslims (particularly UK politicians and media) alike of the fact that “Muslim communities” contain non-religious, spiritual people like me, as well as Atheist people and Agnostic people.

I am over my community b*tching about “The Satanic Verses”, even though most of them have never read it. I am over my community issuing death threats to people who merely suggest that evolution might be reconcilable with the Muslim faith.

I am over UK politicians like Ken Livingstone kissing the arses of Islamist anti-human rights fundamentalists like Yusuf al Qaradawi and pretending to know what non religious cultural Muslims [like me] need and want from life in the UK.

I am over UK politicians thinking that they will find out what I want by speaking to only bearded self appointed “community leaders” who believe that a married woman can never be raped by her husband. I am over UK politicians thinking that headscarf donning women (defined purely by their modesty and “Muslimness”) or the Sayeeda Warsis of the world represent me. Their homophobia, misogyny and dishonesty is NOT something that I identify with. I am NOT defined singularly by the faith I was born into, nor am I represented by demagogues who wish to win support for their incompetent party leader.

I am over the BBC having a show called “The Big Questions” that invites people like Mehdi Hasan and Salma Yaqoob who bully anyone who disagrees with them with charges of “Islamophobia” instead of engaging in authentic dialogue. I am over people such these being incapable of entertaining the idea that not every single criticism of Islam equates to Islamophobic bigotry. I am over the presenters of this show (Nicky Campbell and sometimes Kaye Adams) pandering to traditionalists in an attempt to appear anti-racist when in fact what they’re doing, is implying that anyone with a different culture or religion has different minimum human rights to the rest of British citizenry. Nothing new for the BBC. It has perfected cultural relativism to a tee. I am over the BBC not being aware of the fact that when debating such intellectual topics as “Does Islam need PR”, they should NOT be placing people on opposing sides of the argument physically within inches of one another when they know that the anti-secular bullies get so aggressive and abusive during pretty much every show. I am over the fact that the BBC doesn’t understand how nauseating it is for a secularist to have to explain her arguments while sitting right next to a permanent victim such as Salma Yaqoob who gets offended at people as harmless as Gita Sahgal referring to Muslims as “they”. What other pronoun was she supposed to use?!

I am over being told that my views are Islamophobic, particularly when I come from a Muslim family, have a Muslim name and am profiled at the airport every time I fly because of it, regardless of the fact that I’m Agnostic.

I am over being told that my views are offensive. I’m offended by my community’s homophobia, misogyny and racism in Pakistan, the UK and elsewhere. This doesn’t mean that I have the right (or the inclination) to start burning symbols of remembrance, effigies or chanting “death to ______” or blowing stuff up. Yet people like ME are the ones being called “militant” secularists? When’s the last time a secularist burned effigies and blew stuff up? Secularists do not stunt critique by bursting into Mosques and telling DIY Imams to “Burn in hell! You’re offending me!”, even if we do desperately wish that they would stop spewing their hate.

I am over people not understanding that that secularism and atheism are not the same thing.

I am over converts to Islam like the Kristiane Backers, Yvonne Ridleys and Myriam Francois Cerrahs of the world patronising me and countless others by telling us that we have no right to be angry at our ex co-religionists. That WE are the “intolerant” ones. Painting pink fluffy pictures and telling us that what we see the majority of Muslims practicing is not “real Islam”. You may say that, but most Muslims would disagree with you I’m afraid. I am over these very same converts telling me that the misery I have seen people endure around me from childhood, thanks to Islamic dogma, the racism, homophobia and misogyny of Muslim communities in the UK and elsewhere along with the repeated moral cowardice is all a figment of my imagination. That my experiences count for nothing. I am over people who haven’t lived it, telling me how the hell I should feel.

I am over people from my community telling me that pseudo intellectual [medical doctor] hate preachers like “Dr.” Zakir Naik have anything to contribute to an understanding of theology and spirituality. It’s like taking your car to McDonalds when the brakes fail. I mean, get a clue.

I am over my community letting their sons go out until the early hours of the morning whilst refusing to extend the same privileges to daughters purely on the basis that they are female. I am over asking these parents why they do this and getting the response “because boys don’t get raped/pregnant”.

I am over my community teaching their children that their religion and culture is superior to all others, particularly when they know little or nothing but caricatures about any other culture or religion but their own.

I am over members of my community putting pre-pubescent girls in a hijab when they are not even old enough to understand or give consent to this. I am over the fact that so many parents don’t understand that they are sexually objectifying their own daughter since the intention of the hijab is predominantly to conceal the sexual attraction of women from men.

I am over community and family “honour” depending on the sexual behaviour of women as opposed to those who harm and murder women or fail to condemn the harm and murder of women. Women who just tried to claim their BASIC human rights.

I am over men and women in my community and from outside it, harping on about the “choice” to veil whilst simultaneously ignoring the plight of the women who have NO CHOICE but to veil in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim majority countries. (Here is an excellent article by Karima Bennoune that puts things into context.)

I am over my community telling women to dress differently to prevent being raped instead of telling men NOT TO RAPE.

I am over members of my community thinking that they have the right to dictate whom their grown child marries. I am over such arranged, coerced or forced marriages disintegrating due to a number of factors including incompatibility and parents acting surprised that it didn’t work out.

I am over people insisting that their children only marry Muslims, or Pakistanis or Indians while simultaneously complaining about the religious discrimination or racism that they face in the UK. Time to look up “irony”.

I am over my community restricting the social interactions of daughters and then wondering why so many Muslim women are finding it difficult to find a life partner. I am totally over mothers telling their daughters “women have to compromise more”. You should just “settle”.

I am over my community forcing their children to conceal their social lives from them and then being disappointed and furious when they discover that their child has done totally normal, healthy things like hang out with platonic friends of both sexes, gone on a date or had a girlfriend, boyfriend or both.

I am over my community devaluing white women by calling them “loose” or “slutty”. I am over my community making sex something sinful, illicit, never to be spoken about and then being surprised when they hear of cases of the Pakistani rape gangs from Derby and from Telford abusing white British girls.

I am over people from my community assuming that everyone in their community is heterosexual, and abusing their child if he/she isn’t.

I am over members of my community being intensely shallow and putting more emphasis on marriage, money and appearance than any other aspects of their children’s lives.

I am over people being offended that my husband and I danced together at our own wedding. I am also over the fact that I was unable to kiss my wonderful husband on the lips on my wedding day for the same reason. Apparently love offends.

I am over abusive, patriarchal fathers in my community choosing careers and many other life options for their children against their will, whilst mothers stand by and facilitate the misery by saying nothing, or joining forces with their tyrannical husbands.

I am over my community performing the worst in education in Britain because of it’s unwillingness to entertain ideas or concepts that come from outside their tribe.

I am over the lack of reasoned, intellectual thought and unwillingness to propose solutions to problems that are rife within my community.

I am over the people who maintain friendships with unfaithful, hyper-promiscuous married men while excommunicating women who divorce due to emotional abuse, adultery, domestic violence or for wanting to spend their life with someone who truly loves and respects them.

I am over the lack of moral courage and honesty in my community. The not speaking out when an injustice is done, the deafening silence on child abuse by religious leaders, the “what-about-ery” of “but Catholic priests did it too you know?”.

Finally, I am over the cultural relativist academics, NGOs, public figures and policy makers that say “it’s ok, it’s part of their culture, we should tolerate difference” and pretend to be anti-racist. You are the exact opposite. Human rights apply to humans, and in case you hadn’t noticed, cultural, religious and other minorities comprise of…yes…you got it…humans. Who on earth do you think you are fooling?

.

billy

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Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice

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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage

I am over the BBC having a show called “The Big Questions” that invites people like Mehdi Hasan and Salma Yaqoob who bully anyone who disagrees with them with charges of “Islamophobia” instead of engaging in authentic dialogue. I am over people such these being incapable of entertaining the idea that not every single criticism of Islam equates to Islamophobic bigotry. I am over the presenters of this show (Nicky Campbell and sometimes Kaye Adams) pandering to traditionalists in an attempt to appear anti-racist when in fact what they’re doing, is implying that anyone with a different culture or religion has different minimum human rights to the rest of British citizenry. Nothing new for the BBC. It has perfected cultural relativism to a tee. I am over the BBC not being aware of the fact that when debating such intellectual topics as “Does Islam need PR”, they should NOT be placing people on opposing sides of the argument physically within inches of one another when they know that the anti-secular bullies get so aggressive and abusive during pretty much every show. I am over the fact that the BBC doesn’t understand how nauseating it is for a secularist to have to explain her arguments while sitting right next to a permanent victim such as Salma Yaqoob who gets offended at people as harmless as Gita Sahgal referring to Muslims as “they”. What other pronoun was she supposed to use?!

ha, I remember that.

So true. She has analysed them to a tee.

The answer to the question she asks here though is partly because people like her can only express themselves anonymously, the loudmouths get the platform.

I'm tempted to post a link to it on the liberal-lefty football forum I frequent far too much, but I won't. It would either be ignored, or I would cop dog's abuse for my racism, as has happened before.

But I won't mainly because I'm over Britain. I'm over its pious hypocricies, its delusions, its Puritanism, its condescension and special pleading. I'm over it and largely out of it. Phew.

The fear of addressing these issues is because of things like the EDL - both their stupidities, and by the fear of being associated with them by those who love using them as a propaganda tool against discussion.

However, in the last few years there has been unprecedented open discussion over a number of issues that wasn't there before - things like forced marriage, honour-crimes, the examination of Salafi teachings, the discussion over sharia, over the failure of Muslims to adhere to the Marriage Act thus marginalising and denying masses of Muslim women their rights, and so on and so forth, even in the face of attempts to shut down debate.

In other words, things, even if it does seem otherwise, are not being swept under the carpet any longer, as they used to be.

I believe that this discussion will continue and include things that aren't talked about now - for example, the problems faced by ex-Muslims and dissenters, a real debate about secularism and so on.

Just look at the universal backlash that Sayeeda Warsi got after her speech about 'anti-faith bigotry' and 'militant secularists'

So yeah, the attitude you describe is still there. But so is a good, healthy debate that isn't bounded by that kind of attitude.

I'm optimistic - you can't cover things up in free thinking, free-conscience priveliging, liberal secular democracy, its simply not possible, no matter how many ruses and cries of 'Islamophobia' (for example) those who wish to shut down debate want to use.

Because ultimately people understand that doing so challenges the very essence of what we are - and that is when the debate gets settled - in our favour.

David

The apologists have too large a professional and emotional (thanks, Berbs, for nailing that point) stake in their delusions to surrender them lightly.

This point from Scamper 22 caught my eye because it would still be unsayable in 'polite' society:

Quote

If people from country X integrate well on average and prosper... while people from country Y don't or commit crimes... I think it's proper for the government to have a policy encouraging immigration from country X and limiting that from country Y.

billy

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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage

The apologists have too large a professional and emotional (thanks, Berbs, for nailing that point) stake in their delusions to surrender them lightly.

I really believe we're just in the throat clearing stage of the conversation. It hasn't even begun yet.

Its like this. Someone has been yelling, stomping their feet, and screaming at you for the last few years. You have all the arguments repudiating them (they're simple arguments, the screamer just has his screaming, really). Their screaming has just brought attention to them. But you haven't even begun to reply to them yet, and when the conversation begins, things will get settled.

strangestdude

I am over people insisting that their children only marry Muslims, or Pakistanis or Indians while simultaneously complaining about the religious discrimination or racism that they face in the UK. Time to look up “irony”.

247read

''I am over conservative members of my community trying to impose religious teachings, practices and gender segregation in community gatherings, weddings''

Segregated weddings? No one is forcing her to attend one nor is anyone forcing Muslims to adhere to it, they're just getting more conservative in general.

''I am over converts to Islam like the Kristiane Backers, Yvonne Ridleys and Myriam Francois Cerrahs of the world patronising me and countless others by telling us that we have no right to be angry at our ex co-religionists''

She's not Muslim. So how are they her 'co-religionists'?

''I am over members of my community putting pre-pubescent girls in a hijab when they are not even old enough to understand or give consent to this. I am over the fact that so many parents don&#8217;t understand that they are sexually objectifying their own daughter since the intention of the hijab is predominantly to conceal the sexual attraction of women from men.''

Young hijabis? There are also sexually provocative fashion marketed to a similar demographic.

''I am over my community telling women to dress differently to prevent being raped instead of telling men NOT TO RAPE''

I think it's apparent that sex outside marriage is a crime in Islam, no?.

''I am over members of my community being intensely shallow and putting more emphasis on marriage, money and appearance than any other aspects of their children&#8217;s lives.''

Welcome to materialism, not exactly an alien concept or affiliation unique to Muslims!

''I am over people being offended that my husband and I danced together at our own wedding. I am also over the fact that I was unable to kiss my wonderful husband on the lips on my wedding day for the same reason. Apparently love offends.''

Why did you invite them? It's your day why should other people's opinions matter?

''I am over my community performing the worst in education in Britain because of it&#8217;s unwillingness to entertain ideas or concepts that come from outside their tribe.''

When did algebra or organic chemistry become concepts that contradicted Islam?

Lilyesque

''I am over conservative members of my community trying to impose religious teachings, practices and gender segregation in community gatherings, weddings''

Segregated weddings? No one is forcing her to attend one nor is anyone forcing Muslims to adhere to it, they're just getting more conservative in general. MAYBE SHE WANTS TO RETAIN TIES THERE? She views it as wrong that that is how her community is, community is the people you are around not the people you WANT to be around, she wants to adjust it to more her liking.

''I am over converts to Islam like the Kristiane Backers, Yvonne Ridleys and Myriam Francois Cerrahs of the world patronising me and countless others by telling us that we have no right to be angry at our ex co-religionists''

She's not Muslim. So how are they her 'co-religionists'? She specifically said EX co-religionists.

''I am over members of my community putting pre-pubescent girls in a hijab when they are not even old enough to understand or give consent to this. I am over the fact that so many parents don&#8217;t understand that they are sexually objectifying their own daughter since the intention of the hijab is predominantly to conceal the sexual attraction of women from men.''

Young hijabis? There are also sexually provocative fashion marketed to a similar demographic. Agreed 2 ends of the same spectrum thing, I think all she is saying I think is that she is against sexual judgement of young girls and the implication you are only valuable for your virginity.

''I am over my community telling women to dress differently to prevent being raped instead of telling men NOT TO RAPE''

I think it's apparent that sex outside marriage is a crime in Islam, no?.

''I am over members of my community being intensely shallow and putting more emphasis on marriage, money and appearance than any other aspects of their children&#8217;s lives.''

Welcome to materialism, not exactly an alien concept or affiliation unique to Muslims! Again true to an extent but what she is saying is acceptance of them being an emo if they wish for example. Not valuing them for the good they do.

''I am over people being offended that my husband and I danced together at our own wedding. I am also over the fact that I was unable to kiss my wonderful husband on the lips on my wedding day for the same reason. Apparently love offends.''

Why did you invite them? It's your day why should other people's opinions matter? She should have made a stand yes but wouldn't you want your parents at your wedding?

''I am over my community performing the worst in education in Britain because of it&#8217;s unwillingness to entertain ideas or concepts that come from outside their tribe.''

When did algebra or organic chemistry become concepts that contradicted Islam? She is referring to freedom of thought which she thinks is stifled as the surrounding environment seems all about religion and not critical thought.

.........Her rants has more holes than Swiss cheese.

"It's not enough to say that I don't believe in God. I actually regard the system as distressing: I am offended by some of the things said in the Bible and the Qur'an and I refute them." Emma Thompson

Lilyesque

The rape thing as well, it is nothing to do with Islam that point, she is saying that she hates the secrecy surrounding sex and therefore the lack of talk about sexual conduct of their children in the form of talks on sex (an issue elsewhere). Mix that with islam though and the possible even minor thought that non-muslims are worth less then you could get a situation where rape isn't percieved as rape because they don't know how to approach sex in an adult way i.e by asking women especially as they don't have to get married first for this (they would with a woman their own race which may in their minds somehow make them respect them more).

"It's not enough to say that I don't believe in God. I actually regard the system as distressing: I am offended by some of the things said in the Bible and the Qur'an and I refute them." Emma Thompson

247read

Perhaps she should reevaluate what she 'wants' - stop expecting others to change for her needs!

'' She is referring to freedom of thought ''

I don't think religion is stifling educational attainment or the lack of it in Muslim communities - if anything Islam would have encouraged them to do better, by focusing and disciplining them to achieve success in academia like it has with the Jewish community.

247read

The rape thing as well, it is nothing to do with Islam that point, she is saying that she hates the secrecy surrounding sex and therefore the lack of talk about sexual conduct of their children in the form of talks on sex (an issue elsewhere). Mix that with islam though and the possible even minor thought that non-muslims are worth less then you could get a situation where rape isn't percieved as rape because they don't know how to approach sex in an adult way i.e by asking women especially as they don't have to get married first for this (they would with a woman their own race which may in their minds somehow make them respect them more).

You take waffling to a whole new level! You honestly think Muslim men don't know how to 'talk' to the opposite sex? What planet do you live on?

Susie Cues

It sounded more to me like she hates the inequality of the treatment of women and girls as opposed to men and boys. Women are told to make an apology for being female by covering up with the possibility of rape as reasoning for it but the lesson at hand is that men should be taught to simply be considerate of women by not violating their space or bodies.

"I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."Muhammad Ali

deusvult

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Re: The rant of an angry, Agnostic, British, Indo-Pakistani woman of Muslim heritage