Paul has posed the following question:
>Whether you agree or disagree, why would you think that you'd 'roast in>hell's fire' for considering the idea. Do you hate all of the ethnic>groups in Europe that much to want to see them disappear?
The <idea> being that of ethnic purity.
Yes, I do believe that I should roast in hell's fire for considering, let
alone advocating, ethnic purity BUT I most definitely do not hate any group,
ethnic or otherwise, in Europe or elsewhere.
Also I object somewhat to such a frivolous attribution. If we wish to discuss
the immensely complex and sensitive issues associated with ethnicity on the
net in any meaningful fashion we should make a minimum effort at civility.
There is a strange tendency among the "citoyens" of the net to impute the
most frightful caricature of one's character based on a single remark. Maybe
if we could refrain from this, we could indeed have an exchange of view on
ethnicity.
No, I am not easily hurt, so let me kick it off with a quote from an e-mail
discussion on a different list about a year ago:
<<quote>>
ghyczy:
Ethnicity is not de iure an ideological construct. First and foremost it is a
deep emotional sensation felt by many if not all of us when in contact with
others with the same native language, education, way of life &c.
Anthropologist replies:
What you describe here are `simply' affiliative emotions which may be
and indeed are experienced by the members of social groups of all primates,
albeit at different scales of group size and with different modes of
expression
of these emotions. *Ethnicity* is a distinctly human construct born of the
distinctly human capacity for symbolization; seen in historical context, it
is
a construct in which `normal primate' affilitative emotions are coupled with
socially, economically & politically loaded definitions of `us' versus
`them.'
<<unquote>>
Could we start with this? Could we please avoid <pure ethnicity> as something
of total irrelevance (as many have rightly pointed out) in the context of
Hungary (and otherwise)?
Respectfully, tiha

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Tartalomjegyzek:
----------------
> Felado : Fencsik Gabor> Temakor: Unscientific Understanding ( 71 sor )> Felado : > Temakor: Re: Unscientific Understanding ( 19 sor )> Felado : > Temakor: Hungarian ABC ( 15 sor )> Felado : > Temakor: Re: living cost in Budapest ( 22 sor )> =======================================================> Felado : Fencsik Gabor> E-mail : > Temakor: Unscientific Understanding ( 71 sor )> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 03:58:10 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
After meandering around peripheral issues (such as the meaning of
"explanation", whether history is a science or not, and if so, what kind)
Andras Kornai returns to the crux of the question:
> I again challenge the professional historians and history-buffs on> HUNGARY to come up with a single reason why we should look at things> prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary should act vis a vis> Romania and Slovakia.
This is a very narrow way of phrasing the question, but it is worth an
answer nevertheless. "Looking at things prior to 1975" means many
things. It means looking at events, the various interpretations of
events, received ideas, and their source: the history books from which
generations of schoolkids were taught. It means taking each collective
obsession (on either side) and tracing it back to its origins. The point
is to create trust where nothing but distrust exists now. To create trust,
it is necessary to learn how to avoid each other's neuralgic points. To
avoid them, you must know where they are. The neuralgic points all have
to do with history, the way it is taught and the way it is thought about.
The world is full of ethnic conflict and commercial squabbles, but the
conflicts in Eastern Europe have a special flavor to them: they all revolve
around history. This is because the East European breed of nationalism
-- along with most East European nations themselves -- is the invention of
19th century provincial schoolmasters. [The process whereby this came
about is described in a brilliant short chapter called The Course of True
Nationalism Never Did Run Smooth, by E. Gellner, in his Nations and
Nationalism. Everything you ever need to know about the topic is right
there, and it takes only 5 pages.]
Andras presented his modified Ford thesis out of frustration with the
historical "debate" on the late lamented Seton-Watson the Elder. We
all remember how that went: "He is not an objective source." -- "Yes he
is." -- "No, he's not." -- "Yes he is." No matter how pointless, this
style of argumentation is still useful as a diagnostic tool. The
arguments are leading nowhere, because the participants look at the same
landscape and perceive completely different "facts". How do you deal
with this kind of pathology? The solution implicitely proposed by
Andras is to stop talking about history, period.
When one is faced with a person suffering from agoraphobia, it is
useless to try to persuade them that their fears are irrational. It is
far better to try to understand what past experiences caused them to
have those fears and suspicions, to accept why those fears were an
appropriate response to the situation *then*, and to gently persuade
them that it is safe to let go of those fears *now*. The purpose is
not to debunk or nullify someone's version of history; it is to enable
them to function in spite of that history. For the technique to work,
one must be able to trace the phobias back to whatever trauma
originally triggered them. This approach is essentially historical.
To be more explicit, if someone (one of Funar's followers, let's say) has
come to fear hordes of evil, devious Hungarians bent on her destruction,
then it is useless to try to tell her these fears are irrational, or that
they are based on events that never happened. It might be better to
acknowledge the fears, try to understand how these fears came to be, and
gently persuade her that it is safe to let go of them now. To do that,
I must be aware that what I was told was a heroic struggle in 1848 to
fight for freedom against the Austrian oppressor was described in *her*
history classes rather differently: she was told it was a punitive
expedition by Hungarian oppressors against defenseless Wallachs.
In a way, we were both taught crap, and it almost does not matter which
version has the larger grain of truth. From the standpoint of the narrow
operational question posed by Andras, what matters is for both of us to
understand where the fear and distrust come from. This is very far from
any strict scientific notion of "understanding", but it is a step forward.
-----
Gabor Fencsik
> =======================================================> Felado : > Temakor: Re: Unscientific Understanding ( 19 sor )> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 06:59:06 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Gabor's essay elegantly expresses the argument that I also hold on the
usefulness of studying history. I guess in a way you could say that
history may not tell you what you should do, but could suggest things
_not_ to do, or warn against certain ways of attempting to reach your
goals. I recently attended in Levoca, Slovakia, a seminar on teaching nation-
alism (where Gellner's name was often mentioned) at which a graduate
assistant from the Central European University talked about his experiences.
(He was, btw, a Hungarian originally from Transylvania but now resident
in Hungary). Whatever opinion one may hold on the travails of the CEU,
the idea that students from _all_ the regional countries would study
_together_ the phenomenon of nationalism (using, of course, today's
major imperial, and therefore "neutral", language, English) surely is
a practical way of implementing that avoidance of each other's neuralgic
points that Gabor mentions.
Sincerely,
Hugh Agnew
> =======================================================> Felado : > Temakor: Hungarian ABC ( 15 sor )> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 09:58:46 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Eddig minden kulonosebb problema nelkul hasznaltam magyar
karaktereket DOS-alkalmazasokban a DOS-codpage 852 es
a magyar billentyuzetmeghajto kivalasztasaval (autoexec.bat es
config.sys).
Windows alkalmazasokkal mar bonyolultabb a helyzet, mert a
(nemetorszagban es valoszinuleg mas orszagokban is) hasznalatos
Windows nem tamogatja a magyar billentyuzetet es karaktertablat.
Ezert a szamitogepemen a magyarorszagon kaphato Windows-t is
installaltam a nemet melle, es innen inditom a szokasos
szovegszerkesztomet. Igy mukodnek a magyar betuk es a billentyuzet
is magyar, bar nemet feliratokkal. A magyar betuket filctollal
irtam ra a billenty=FCkre. Ez a legolcsobb megoldas. Ha fontos
a helyesirasellenorzes, a Word for Windows kaphato (Magyarorszagon)
magyar szotarral is.
Papp Gellert
> =======================================================> Felado : > Temakor: Re: living cost in Budapest ( 22 sor )> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 11:44:06 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear sir or mrs,
Hungarian embassies can provide you with a list of
hotel-accomodation of all kinds.
As a (Flemish) Hungary-freak, I visited Budapest already
more or less 20 times during the last 6 years.
However I'm new on Internet and it takes me some time to
give you long answers.
I'll be glad to hear from you if this message arrived.
If you have some more specific questions I probably can
help you with the answers.
I myself am in Budapest again from the 16 th of Sept till
the 20 th of September.
Best regards.
Dirk Apers.
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