Is everything so black and white to you? Have you not read anything that we have written? MA will INCREASE her chances of getting away from an attacker/rapist/mugger. But there is no guarantee! This is life.

Practicing an instrument will increase your abilities does that mean eventually you will be the best and play in the Phil-harmonic (sp)? NO. Practicing singing will increase her abilities but will she be the next Christina Aguellera (sp)? Probably not. Do you see where I am going with this?

Keeping her in MA will increase her chances for survival. It will not make her able to go toe to toe with any agressor. Her best chance is to run away. It saves hospital bills, lawyer fees, and mental anguish. If all else fails and she can not escape, strike away! But do enough damage to ESCAPE.

I am a little annoyed now because you feel now she has received nothing from her training. This is where you are wrong. She has increased her chances of survival. But please, for all things holy, get the thought of your daughter going toe-to-toe with any agressor out of your head!!!! Also, get the thought of running away is cowardice out of your head!!!!

I am not exactly sure what you mean by the term toe to toe. To me, it means the exact opposite of martial arts. It is simply 2 people standing toe to toe and slugging it out. That's no way to fight, whether you are trained or not. To me, the idea behind MA training is that you learn not to fight like an idiot and learn to use the other person's advantages against him. For instance, against a tall, lean person, you would stay close, so that he cannot put much power into his punches. Against a short, fat, person, you would stay away and make him reach for you, exhausting him in the process.

And, actually, yes, if she were interested enough, I believe my daughter should learn to play an instrument well enough to be in the Philharmonic. Being Britney or Madonna has more to do with marketing than talent. In the MA classes, I believed they taught more than physical skills. I've never believed that it is the tallest or the heaviest boxer who wins, for instance. It is the smartest one who wins, given the exact same level of physical training, as for instance in world class boxing. And they don't win by either running away or by fighting toe to toe.

THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic. I've never believed that being defensive means allowing the other person to attack first. That simply takes away your initiative. Being defensive, to me, means scaring the crap out of the other person before he attacks so that, hopefully, HE will run away. Failing that, the best thing to do is to smack the other person as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, so he is disoriented and off-balance as the fight begins. With any luck, you can knock him out with your first hit, so you don't get hurt at all. That is an ideal situation, of course, and I don't expect it to happen, usually, but that is the objective, so far as I am concerned: Scare away or injure the other person so that you are yourself always at the maximum advantage and face the minimum risk of getting hurt. Minimum doesn't mean zero, of course, because there is never zero risk, no matter what.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic. [/QUOTE]

Thats great. You are a thoughtful loving parent. Its just a case of rationalising your expectations.

I wouldn't want to speak for Raul, but I think when he says 'toe to toe', hes not necessarily implying that as a method for which one should try and defend themselves against a bigger person.

Simply that bigger stronger people are harder to take down and that MA training is not a magic wand that can equalise that fact. Especially if they ambush you.

Martial arts is funny like that. Its such a broad term, with so many connotations. Some would argue (including myself at the grand old age of 20) that its not possible to teach a child under the age of 12 or possibly 14 what real violence is (unless they have direct experience of it, which is obviously undesirable), let alone how you might go about countering it.

Its not about a belt with tags. Its about the fear of a broken bottle in your face. Its about how you respond when without any provokation or warning, someone hits you hard enough to drive the air from your body. Can you physically fight back? Can you adjust quickly enough mentally?

Real violence is a knife in the back when you were looking the other way. The blood loss, the shock, the inability to comprehend what is happening or why, let alone make a decision about what course of action to take.

Real violence makes you doubt your training, the adrenaline dump draws blood into the body and away from the periphery, you look pale, your brain is functioning with less blood inside, your heart rate and breathing rate jumps through the roof - your decision making is impaired. You shake, you feel frozen to the spot, you get tunnel vision, your body reacts in such a way to convince your mind that you are frightened.

That further encourages doubt. The adrenaline dump experienced when ambushed is mind blowing. You cannot put a 10 year old in a situation where they can learn what that is like. Its not ethical. therefore the most important part of defending yourself -the mental aspect cannot be taught to young child.

But its all academic. Its just words. It would be so much easier to show you why your earlier posts struck as unrealistic.

Yes MA help, depending on the instructor and the way the student is trained. But it is not as simple as that.

Violence isn't simply a case of fighting 'intelligently'.

I hope you can see the truth of that without taking offence - none is intended. A fifteen year old 3rd degree black belt is massively unlikely to have a complete toolbox of training to comprehend let alone deal with real violence.

alec [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2004).]

Don't take your daughter out of MA. The skills she learns are usefull. They are not magic.

Yoseikan is right, until you have experienced real violence, there is no way to know how you will react. The most important thing to remember is DON'T FIGHT. MA will train you do use that one or two technique that will open a path to flee. Most of that scenario you decribe is useless in a self defense situaton. Pretty much everything after taking the knee is too much.

Those of us who practise striking arts usually do what is called 1, 2 or 3 step sparring. They are set attack and defend scenarios. They involve an attacker doing 1, 2 or 3 attacks that you defend against and then the defender responding with one attack. They are used to drill the concept of avoid and strike back. Once should be enough to disorient or disable an attacker enough to run away.

I don't want to dissulusion you, but I think you just have to readjust your expectation of what MA is. The art taught to your daughter is a good mix of striking, throws and submission. As long as you and your daughter know that it is not a license to ignore danger signs, she'll be OK.

Originally posted by Anpadh:"I am not exactly sure what you mean by the term toe to toe. To me, it means the exact opposite of martial arts. It is simply 2 people standing toe to toe and slugging it out. That's no way to fight, whether you are trained or not. To me, the idea behind MA training is that you learn not to fight like an idiot and learn to use the other person's advantages against him. For instance, against a tall, lean person, you would stay close, so that he cannot put much power into his punches. Against a short, fat, person, you would stay away and make him reach for you, exhausting him in the process."

Yoseikan Student answered this for me... Thanks!

Originally posted by Anpadh:"And, actually, yes, if she were interested enough, I believe my daughter should learn to play an instrument well enough to be in the Philharmonic. Being Britney or Madonna has more to do with marketing than talent."

Clearly you missed my message entirely. My message was that there are no guarantees.

Originally posted by Anpadh:"In the MA classes, I believed they taught more than physical skills. I've never believed that it is the tallest or the heaviest boxer who wins, for instance. It is the smartest one who wins, given the exact same level of physical training, as for instance in world class boxing. And they don't win by either running away or by fighting toe to toe."

Here you are comparing apples to oranges. Boxing is a sport in which 2 trained athletes compete in "mutual combat" in a restricted space using their fists under specific rules for our entertainment. Street fighting is a no rules engagement where anything can happen and the element of surprise is usually used.

Originally posted by Anpadh:"THAT is what I want my daughter to learn. I want her to know that you cannot always run from a fight, and that when you do fight, it is best to fight intelligently, than to slug it out or to panic. I've never believed that being defensive means allowing the other person to attack first. That simply takes away your initiative."

I agree.

Originally posted by Anpadh:"Being defensive, to me, means scaring the crap out of the other person before he attacks so that, hopefully, HE will run away. Failing that, the best thing to do is to smack the other person as hard as you can, as quickly as you can, so he is disoriented and off-balance as the fight begins. With any luck, you can knock him out with your first hit, so you don't get hurt at all. That is an ideal situation, of course, and I don't expect it to happen, usually, but that is the objective, so far as I am concerned: Scare away or injure the other person so that you are yourself always at the maximum advantage and face the minimum risk of getting hurt. Minimum doesn't mean zero, of course, because there is never zero risk, no matter what."

If we just concentrate this statement on your daughter I can tell you that there is no way she will scare any male attacker. By the simple fact that females (for the most part) are not physically intimidating to males. And if she does hit the male aggressor and does not cause much damage she has just enraged her attacker to want to inflict more bodily harm upon her.As I have stated in previous posts, it is best for your daughter to strike and run than strike and fight. This is the last time I will say this whether it sinks in or not.

She who fights and runs away......

To comment on Wadowoman's response, If I have upset you I am really glad. Because I would rather you be upset and aware than content and unaware. Ignorance is a disease.

OK I think I have finally understood the source of the misunderstanding in re my daughter defending herself. I don't honestly think she will ever be in a truly dangerous place, such as a prison, or a streetgfight with drug dealers, where she may have to fight to the death. I am thinking of more "normal" circumstances. A boyfriend who tries to slap her around; a girl who's bigger than her, being insulting; a teacher getting too close; someone trying to snatch her purse; basically, situations in which she is no real danger, but where it would help for her to feel confident and capable rather than weak and fearful.

I'm really not thinking of situations in which a Mafia hitman with a submachine gun would be targeting her. I'm just thinking of more or less normal situations that could happen to anyone. For instance, I was watching a movie a couple of days ago, and the guy in front of me was talking on his cell-phone the whole time the movie was on. The theatre was packed, so I couldn't move to another seat. I couldn't make him shut up either, because he was 4 inches taller and probably 40 pounds heavier, in addition to being younger and leaner than I am. Now, if I were a blackbelt, I would have crushed his phone, at the very least, without worrying about what he could do to me.

I wouldn't want to fight someone with a gun or a knife, who was a gang member or some type of criminal. But, of course, I would like to be able to enjoy my movie. I hope you understand where I am coming from, now. I don't expect my daughter to be fighting serial killers or terrorists or people like that, just people more or less like herself, who are basically civilized, but trying to take advantage of the fact that she is a girl, and a small one, at that. And, I am not thinking only of right now, but of when she is an adult (16 and up). At this moment, if anyone attacked her in school, she wouldn't have to defend herself. Her whole class would do that for her. She's been with most of these kids 4 years or more and is good friends with almost each and every one. Besides, she isn't the kind of kid that gets into trouble. I always ask every teacher, mid-year, if my daughter is ever in trouble and always the teacher looks at me as if I were crazy. So, no, I don't think my daughter would normally be in trouble, and I certainly don't expect her to get stabbed, shot, etc.

It's just that I don't want her being bullied by people like the guy with the cell-phone in the movie theatre.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anpadh:OK I think I have finally understood the source of the misunderstanding in re my daughter defending herself. I don't honestly think she will ever be in a truly dangerous place, such as a prison, or a streetgfight with drug dealers, where she may have to fight to the death. I am thinking of more "normal" circumstances. A boyfriend who tries to slap her around; a girl who's bigger than her, being insulting; a teacher getting too close; someone trying to snatch her purse; basically, situations in which she is no real danger, but where it would help for her to feel confident and capable rather than weak and fearful.[/QUOTE]

None of those situations requires fighting. Leave the boyfriend, walk away from an insult, talk to the teacher's supervisor, give away the purse. In this last case, you will find that the majority of us will give up our wallet rather than risk injury.

[QUOTE]I'm really not thinking of situations in which a Mafia hitman with a submachine gun would be targeting her. I'm just thinking of more or less normal situations that could happen to anyone. For instance, I was watching a movie a couple of days ago, and the guy in front of me was talking on his cell-phone the whole time the movie was on. The theatre was packed, so I couldn't move to another seat. I couldn't make him shut up either, because he was 4 inches taller and probably 40 pounds heavier, in addition to being younger and leaner than I am. Now, if I were a blackbelt, I would have crushed his phone, at the very least, without worrying about what he could do to me.[/QUOTE]

Go get the manager. Your response would have landed you in jail with an assault charge.

[QUOTE]I wouldn't want to fight someone with a gun or a knife, who was a gang member or some type of criminal. But, of course, I would like to be able to enjoy my movie. I hope you understand where I am coming from, now. I don't expect my daughter to be fighting serial killers or terrorists or people like that, just people more or less like herself, who are basically civilized, but trying to take advantage of the fact that she is a girl, and a small one, at that. And, I am not thinking only of right now, but of when she is an adult (16 and up). At this moment, if anyone attacked her in school, she wouldn't have to defend herself. Her whole class would do that for her. She's been with most of these kids 4 years or more and is good friends with almost each and every one. Besides, she isn't the kind of kid that gets into trouble. I always ask every teacher, mid-year, if my daughter is ever in trouble and always the teacher looks at me as if I were crazy. So, no, I don't think my daughter would normally be in trouble, and I certainly don't expect her to get stabbed, shot, etc.

It's just that I don't want her being bullied by people like the guy with the cell-phone in the movie theatre.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Keep her in MA. the training will instill in her an air of confidence. Bullies almost always pick on the insecure.

I suggest you get counseling. You have a lot of anger and resentment built up.

If one of our students ever hit someone because they insulted them, I am sure the instructors would have to reevaluate whether they would be allowed to train anymore. Also, that is called assault-it is a criminal action, depending on injury caused-you could get time in prison.

I have trained for a number of years-I will spar or step onto the mat or into a ring with anyone(not that I would win). Out in the real world, you bet your ass I would run.