Bargnani has a hefty contract for his current role on the team, he'd be put to much better use on another team instead IMO.

Ya but why trade for an expiring contract like millsap? If the objective is a salary dump it makes sense, but it sounds like people actually want to keep millsap, im just saying trading for him knowing he can walk is a risky way to use our most valuable trading chip.

That is the thing though. I think Ilyasova is better than Bargnani..... shhhh! Don't tell Milwaukee though.

He's better than him if he doesn't have to do too much with it. He's not quite as quick to the basket, and he's not big enough to play in the post as well as Bargs. They can't run plays for Ilyasova where he has the ball in his hands, and as it is now, they have that small backcourt issue. Bargs would make Ellis more expendable, and to get a scoring "downgrade" there as well more acceptable...maybe try to turn it into a 3-team deal with Indy. I don't think they really want to keep Granger. I think they could really use Ellis like a supersub, and it saves Indy a small amount of money. They can keep the lineup that's been working, and keep George at SF. This deal, for example, works....And Milwauke would have a slightly more conventional lineup, because they're clearly not going to be contenders as constructed. We could also throw in AA to the Bucks if they want extra SG insurance with Ellis gone.

I don't like this deal because I don't think it makes us much better. Basically, your trading one stretch four who's big enough for the position for another stretch four who shoots better but is likely to get pushed around. We don't have room at the 3 for him and I don't see him as an upgrade at the four. Basically it seems like a lateral deal. I'm actually for keeping Bargs until the summer to see how he meshes with this squad then going from there.

Who cares if Ilyasova is getting pushed around when he is getting an extra 3 rebs per game and giving up less points while being much more efficient?

Also, lets look at offensive ratings this year and career:

Player/OffRtg '12-13/Career

Bargnani/96/103
Ilyasova/113/110

And defensive ratings this year and career:

Bargnani/109/111
Ilyasova/103/103

And WS/48:

Bargnani: -0.151
Ilyasova: +0.20

And WP:

Bargnani: -2.3
Ilyasova: +5.0

And all this talk of Bargnani being a stretch 4:

Bargnani 3pt % last two seasons: .306 and .296 with 1.3 and 1.1 made on 4.3 and 3.7 attempts
Ilyasova 3pt % last two seasons:.442 and .455 with 1.1 and 0.9 made on 1.9 and 2.6 attempts

And contract status:

Bargnani: $11M and $12M next 2 years.
Ilyasova: $7.9M, $7.9M, and $7.9M with $8.4 option ($400k guaranteed) over next 4 seasons

And finally age:

Bargnani 28 to start next season
Ilyasova 26 to start next season

I don't see a single area that I would prefer Bargnani over Ilyasova. From production to age to contract, give me some Ilyasova.

Wouldn't it be a better idea just to sign Millsap as a free agent? Why trade for him now when we could keep our assets? Even Bargnani.

Money shouldn't be a problem, management has already confirmed that they're willing to pay the tax.

This is not a matter of wanting, but rather a matter of being able to. Since Raps will be way over the cap this summer, the most they would be able to offer to Millsap is an MLE-level contract. I am sure he is looking for more and will get it on the open market.

If they are serious about giving Millsap a new contract, the only way of doing that would indeed be to trade for him now, thus retaining his Bird rights.

Wouldn't it be a better idea just to sign Millsap as a free agent? Why trade for him now when we could keep our assets? Even Bargnani.

Money shouldn't be a problem, management has already confirmed that they're willing to pay the tax.

Can't do that since Raptors are above the cap. Only teams below the cap can sign a free agent outright. Only option would be a sign and trade, and even then the Raptors have to unload salary since they can't go into the luxury in a sign and trade.

They would have to amnesty Bargnani and still trade DeMar for peanuts to get Millsap as a free agent.

It's either trade for him before the deadline then resign him using his Bird Rights (thus going over the cap to do it) or bust.

Can't do that since Raptors are above the cap. Only teams below the cap can sign a free agent outright. Only option would be a sign and trade, and even then the Raptors have to unload salary since they can't go into the luxury in a sign and trade.

They would have to amnesty Bargnani and still trade DeMar for peanuts to get Millsap as a free agent.

It's either trade for him before the deadline then resign him using his Bird Rights (thus going over the cap to do it) or bust.

There's no way we can get him before the dealine though. Demar isn't going to matchup salary-wise....they wont want to add Kleiza, or Fields....We can't give them Lowry if they want a PG. Earliest option is the offseason..

*sidenote, I know it creates, or rather could create a glut of PFs, but considering Bargs is likely no part of anything that could happen with Millsap in any scenario there, it should make little difference if they turn him into Ilyasova. Utah might even like ilyasova more...

So you can't make trades that will get you in the tax, but you can sign players that will get you in the tax? Why?

If you are over the cap, you can't sign a player UNLESS they're your own player. Example, an extension. IF Demar wasn't signed an extension, and went all the way into the off-season, we have the first chance at re-signing him, and since he is our "property", we can go re-sign the player regardless if over the cap.

It would be hard to make an argument as to why the Bucks would do this trade. In terms of a straight up swap, the Bucks will only save $1M in the long run. In terms of short term flexibility, Bargnani will cost $3M more next season and $4M the season after.

I was pushing for someone who can solidify the low post scoring and interior presence for the Raptors. Ilyasova, who is a good role player (stretches the floor, rebounds and plays solid defense), is not the ideal power forward I was hoping for. However, his advanced statistics are similar to Paul Millsap's and his contract which is stated at $7.9 M per year for the next 3 seasons seems a more logical option than overpaying for a Millsap (whose contract is expiring by season's end). I am assuming Millsap will command a contract upwards of $11 M per year for 3-4 years.

Having Rudy Gay essentially as the go to option for the Raptors, we can argue that having a role player such as Ilyasova, who can impact the game even at a low usage %, is as valuable to the team as having Bargnani, a higher usage player with more skill set but produces at lower efficiency rate.

For comparison purposes, here is a brief list of power forwards who the Raptors can potentially target. (Bargnani's numbers are also featured to make comparisons easier)

Player

Age

PER

TS%

eFG%

ORB%

DRB%

TRB%

AST%

STL%

BLK%

TOV%

Usg%

ORtg

DRtg

OWS

DWS

WS

WS/48

Ersan Ilyasova

25

17.1

53.8

50.3

7.2

19.6

13.3

10.3

1.7

1.3

7.8

19.4

113

103

2.2

1.6

3.8

0.155

Paul Millsap

27

20.3

54.9

49.4

8.5

19.7

14

14.4

2.3

2.7

11.1

22.7

113

104

3.4

1.8

5.2

0.159

Carlos Boozer

31

17.4

50.6

47.4

8.7

25.8

17.3

12.3

1.2

1.1

11.4

26.1

102

100

1.1

2.5

3.6

0.121

Josh Smith

27

17.2

48.5

47.4

6.5

21

13.8

19.8

1.9

4.8

15

26.7

94

100

-0.7

2.8

2.1

0.068

Pau Gasol

32

15.9

50.7

46.2

7

19.1

13.2

17.2

0.7

2.9

13.2

20.1

106

106

1.3

1.2

2.5

0.101

Andrea Bargnani

27

12.7

49.4

45.4

2.8

13

7.7

7.7

1.2

1.6

10.2

25.8

96

109

-0.1

0.4

0.3

0.018

We can see that out of all the options available, Ilyasova is the youngest option at age 25. This is always a good idea when trying to build a core of players moving forward.

In terms of head to head match-up with Paul Millsap, his numbers are fairly comparable.

Ilyasova has a lower usage % which you want from a role player. He knows his role, does not demand a ton of plays, yet produces fairly well. He also turns the ball over at a lower percentage compared to Millsap. Add in the fact that he is 6'10" compared to Millsap's 6'8" frame, Ilyasova then provides the better answer in terms of size.

Both Millsap and Ilyasova have similar win share per 48 at around 0.15 - 0.16. In terms of that statistic, both players contribute the same amount to their team wins. One major statistic that I think solidifies my argument is that Ilyasova is only averaging 25 minutes per game. Moving forward, he can definitely fit the role of the first big off the bench and has the potential to finish games along with Amir or any front court partner.

In terms of the selection of players given above, Millsap and Ilyasova have the best production levels. Given that Boozer, Smith and Gasol are making in excess of $15 M & Smith projecting to be a max player and assuming Millsap will demand around $12 M per year this summer, Ilyasova, at $7.9M per season, is the most logical fit to the Raptors.

Last edited by torch19; Mon Feb 11th, 2013 at 11:28 PM.

ďI donít create controversies. Theyíre there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.Ē

Ilyasova will make us better but not make us good enough. We should hold out for more value for the bargster, or at least amnesty the larger contract, if waiting for pasta (and he shows everyone his true colors) backfires.

While taking the stats into consideration, watch some recent highlights if ilyasova and millsap, and you tell me who's better.

It would be hard to make an argument as to why the Bucks would do this trade. In terms of a straight up swap, the Bucks will only save $1M in the long run. In terms of short term flexibility, Bargnani will cost $3M more next season and $4M the season after.

I was pushing for someone who can solidify the low post scoring and interior presence for the Raptors. Ilyasova, who is a good role player (stretches the floor, rebounds and plays solid defense), is not the ideal power forward I was hoping for. However, his advanced statistics are similar to Paul Millsap's and his contract which is stated at $7.9 M per year for the next 3 seasons seems a more logical option than overpaying for a Millsap (whose contract is expiring by season's end). I am assuming Millsap will command a contract upwards of $11 M per year for 3-4 years.

Having Rudy Gay essentially as the go to option for the Raptors, we can argue that having a role player such as Ilyasova, who can impact the game even at a low usage %, is as valuable to the team as having Bargnani, a higher usage player with more skill set but produces at lower efficiency rate.

For comparison purposes, here is a brief list of power forwards who the Raptors can potentially target. (Bargnani's numbers are also featured to make comparisons easier)

Player

Age

PER

TS%

eFG%

ORB%

DRB%

TRB%

AST%

STL%

BLK%

TOV%

Usg%

ORtg

DRtg

OWS

DWS

WS

WS/48

Ersan Ilyasova

25

17.1

53.8

50.3

7.2

19.6

13.3

10.3

1.7

1.3

7.8

19.4

113

103

2.2

1.6

3.8

0.155

Paul Millsap

27

20.3

54.9

49.4

8.5

19.7

14

14.4

2.3

2.7

11.1

22.7

113

104

3.4

1.8

5.2

0.159

Carlos Boozer

31

17.4

50.6

47.4

8.7

25.8

17.3

12.3

1.2

1.1

11.4

26.1

102

100

1.1

2.5

3.6

0.121

Josh Smith

27

17.2

48.5

47.4

6.5

21

13.8

19.8

1.9

4.8

15

26.7

94

100

-0.7

2.8

2.1

0.068

Pau Gasol

32

15.9

50.7

46.2

7

19.1

13.2

17.2

0.7

2.9

13.2

20.1

106

106

1.3

1.2

2.5

0.101

Andrea Bargnani

27

12.7

49.4

45.4

2.8

13

7.7

7.7

1.2

1.6

10.2

25.8

96

109

-0.1

0.4

0.3

0.018

We can see that out of all the options available, Ilyasova is the youngest option at age 25. This is always a good idea when trying to build a core of players moving forward.

In terms of head to head match-up with Paul Millsap, his numbers are fairly comparable.

Ilyasova has a lower usage % which you want from a role player. He knows his role, does not demand a ton of plays, yet produces fairly well. He also turns the ball over at a lower percentage compared to Millsap. Add in the fact that he is 6'10" compared to Millsap's 6'8" frame, Ilyasova then provides the better answer in terms of size.

Both Millsap and Ilyasova have similar win share per 48 at around 0.15 - 0.16. In terms of that statistic, both players contribute the same amount to their team wins. One major statistic that I think solidifies my argument is that Ilyasova is only averaging 25 minutes per game. Moving forward, he can definitely fit the role of the first big off the bench and has the potential to finish games along with Amir or any front court partner.

In terms of the selection of players given above, Millsap and Ilyasova have the best production levels. Given that Boozer, Smith and Gasol are making in excess of $15 M & Smith projecting to be a max player and assuming Millsap will demand around $12 M per year this summer, Ilyasova, at $7.9M per season, is the most logical fit to the Raptors.

You've turned my head around Torch. Excellent, excellent post. Great explanation, great usage of stats. I've always wanted Milsap because he is the inside scoring presence this team lacks, but that is likely something JV addresses in the future, for he is a solid low post player already.

Ilyasova is now a sure fire guy for me, but like you mentioned in the beginning, why would Milwaukee do such a trade?

ebrian wrote:
It's interesting using the word "classless", because showing class requires an effort. Which means what you're really saying is that it takes an amount of effort to not boo Bargnani. As in, he deserves it but people should show some class and hold back.

Well, if that's the case then I come back to you with another word -- dignity. Have a little self respect for yourself. Here is a guy who, if he isn't traded will have sucked $71M out of the Toronto Raptors by the end of his contract.

Taking the following criteria of being 7' with average of 25+ minutes per game, here is where Bargnani ranks in the history of the NBA:
- dead last in rebounds per game
- 5th worst all time in FG%
- 7th worst all time in blocks
- 1st all time in 3 pointers attempted

You'll want to argue that this is Colangelo's fault, but the problem with that is Bargnani has the ability to be so much better. Unfortunately he just doesn't care. Plus booing Bargnani is booing Colangelo.

And then we have fans like you who are putting up an effort to take more. It's like pointing at the guy, turning around and bending over so he can take you right up your rear end. You're sitting in the stands, hearing guys stand up for themselves and their city and instead you think to yourself ""I have class" and do nothing. What's worse is you come to the forums to rant about this.

I'm sorry, but if that means I have no class, then I don't want to have class in this situation. I'd rather leave the arena with some dignity and I'm glad some fans feel the same way. If this had been anyone else, I can understand but frankly I'm fed up. This is Andrea Bargnani we're talking about.

Cc to old school

On a flight to the states a few years back some fat, obnoxious slob wouldn't stop harrassing one of the stewardesses. Earlier she had accidentally spilt a beverage on his shoe and even though she offered to clean up what she could and after countless appologies the dude still wouldn't let up. "lousy flight!, get me this get me that, pathetic service!" blah blah blah until finally a few of the other passengers had to 'speak' with him. Now obviously this man felt short-changed with his overall flight experience..after all, he did PAY for his ticket. He wasn't pleased with one of the employees as well so ofcourse he had to put his foot down and let it be known. Someone has to stand up and show these servers what time it was...and dammit it was gonna be him. Why? well if anything because he has the dignity to stand up for his beliefs...bad form and just that. Bad form. Someone shoulda smacked some sense into him in retrospect.

Ok terrible example but one of experiences that comes to mind.

Booing your own damn team does not serve you. It not only affects the player your booing but his teammates, staff and everyone out there who are busting their buts trying to make this work. Some say booing is usefull because it can run the guy right outta town, but really thats BS too. What are you? a freakin lynch mob? you don't like a guy so you're gonna cause a ruckus, boo him and run him outta town? yeah real dignified! Ill never understand these people who feel that booing, showing your hate and spreading negativity is actually helping...I don't get it. The only thing I can think of is ...well it makes you feel good. It makes you feel dignified but forget how it effects everyone else. Someone needs to smack some sense in you selfish fools.