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Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by Uyraell

I have seen it written that some Polish "researchers" claim that there were, among the Germans what the Poles describe as "SS men". I have also seen debate written that the "SS men" were in fact Brandenburg Division personnel.
Now, I openly admit I have not myself researched this topic greatly, in regard to the specific atrocities against German civilians as committed by Poles.

However, whilst reading the information I've posted of above, I also recalled that the Brandenburg Division units which *would* have been involved did not in fact at that moment in time exist as an operational force: Said units were in fact in the very earliest stages of recruitment and establishing TOE. This info from a book on the Brandenburg Division still in my possession.

Similarly, at the relevant moment in time, there would manifestly NOT have been SS men in combat situations, because those units had also not at that time been officially established.

All of which means that it (if logic devoid of emotionality be followed) appears that the Poles did in fact commit genocidal crimes against German civilians, and later attempted to justify those crimes by falsely attributing to the Germans the presence of either SS units, or Brandenburg Division units, or both.

As I am neither pro-German, pro-Polish (and I am at the same time attempting to show appropriate respect to both nationalities), nor revisionist, I can only conclude that the atrocities as recorded did in fact occur, albeit at that time most likely with the lower-cited death toll recorded.

I also note the eerie parallel with the killing of ethnic German civilians in similar regions in late 1944 early 1945, again generally (and reliably, I believe) attributed to the Poles.
All in all, I see it as part of the brutality of war, necessary or otherwise, justified or otherwise.
Humanity is at times a brutal species. Our entire history proves that.

Kind and Respectful Regards FTG, Uyraell.

Right, some 'Brandenburg' predecessor units like "Sudetendeutsches Freikorps", "Kampfverband Ebbinghaus" or Siegfried Grabert's "Deutsche Kompanie" performed some actions in Poland like securing objects of traffic infrastructure etc.
Partially this happened via parachute drops and/or in Polish uniforms.
The only action before September 1 however that comes to my mind was the occupation of the Jablunkov Pass on August 25 (!) where a commando unit under 1st Lt. Dr. Albrecht Herzner was awkwardly not informed about the postponement of the German attack on Poland.
This incident is sometimes called the first commando raid of WW2.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

It is indeed a long time since I have seen mentioned the units you cite, my friend. Likewise, I struggle to recall more than yourself regarding German military actions in Poland prior to September 1st, 1939. The Jablunkov Pass incident had slipped from memory to be honest, though oddly, I recalled the name Herzner as soon as I saw it.

Where I come to something of an impasse in my cogitations upon such incidents as massacres of civilians is that almost any nation in Europe can within reason make the same specie of claim, viz: "The enemy rounded our civilians up, marched them off, gunned them down (or caused death by other means such as clubbing to death)."
The only combattant nation in Europe not able to make such a claim is basically the UK, which went unoccupied save for the Channel Islands.
Again, it all boils down to the brutality of war, in which civilian casualties and deaths are a certainty, and as such, are to be expected.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

The source claims there were killed up to 55 000 of ethnical germans in Danzig, right after GErman invasion to Poland in september.
What is here the true and what is the propogand?

I think it's false info, or the number is too big
After and under ww2, the Red Army controlled areas made these actions
I saw a video once the place maybe cheslovakia, german ethnical civilians machinegunned down after the Red Army arrived

"The consciousness that I am alive, makes me wild dreams every day"
(Helmut Wolff lieutenant colonel, one who survived the breakout of Budapest)

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy

No, there aren't any Polish civilian casualties mentioned. Polish sources speak of 250-300 Polish soldiers that were killed by German shooters. The Poles claim that these people were "fifth column" members and disguised SS men along the civilians. However, there are no documents or information available about German sabotage forces etc. in this area by that time.

Originally Posted by Uyraell

I have seen it written that some Polish "researchers" claim that there were, among the Germans what the Poles describe as "SS men". I have also seen debate written that the "SS men" were in fact Brandenburg Division personnel.
Now, I openly admit I have not myself researched this topic greatly, in regard to the specific atrocities against German civilians as committed by Poles.

However, whilst reading the information I've posted of above, I also recalled that the Brandenburg Division units which *would* have been involved did not in fact at that moment in time exist as an operational force: Said units were in fact in the very earliest stages of recruitment and establishing TOE. This info from a book on the Brandenburg Division still in my possession.

Similarly, at the relevant moment in time, there would manifestly NOT have been SS men in combat situations, because those units had also not at that time been officially established.

All of which means that it (if logic devoid of emotionality be followed) appears that the Poles did in fact commit genocidal crimes against German civilians, and later attempted to justify those crimes by falsely attributing to the Germans the presence of either SS units, or Brandenburg Division units, or both.

As I am neither pro-German, pro-Polish (and I am at the same time attempting to show appropriate respect to both nationalities), nor revisionist, I can only conclude that the atrocities as recorded did in fact occur, albeit at that time most likely with the lower-cited death toll recorded.

I also note the eerie parallel with the killing of ethnic German civilians in similar regions in late 1944 early 1945, again generally (and reliably, I believe) attributed to the Poles.
All in all, I see it as part of the brutality of war, necessary or otherwise, justified or otherwise.
Humanity is at times a brutal species. Our entire history proves that.

Kind and Respectful Regards FTG, Uyraell.

Old posts but since it has been brought back.

You had SS Heimwehr Danzig in Danzig from around June 1939, they took part in actions in Poland during the invasion at least and possibly helped aggravate feelings prior.

I have read period French government sources stating the Germans were supplying weapons to Danzig from 1936 possibly earlier.

IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

Hi folks.
Just recently , quite accidentally i have found an quite shocking matter, that tells about killing the ethnical GErmans in Poland near Danzig.

Noooooo !??

(I realise I should find a GIF for this.... how to portray feigned amazement... Ahw NOoooo ??? )

I think the only explanation is that with the coming of www internet the world libraries have burned all their books but not all that information is put on wiki, so that information is LOST. FOREVER!
MORE bookburnings than that in Berlin bebelplatz 1933 !
And only now we learn of this terrible mistake ! The world is slowly, no, fast going ignorant ! (or stupid , if you will).

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

The atrocities the Poles committed against the Germans before and during the September invasion has always fascinated me, mostly because I can't find a Pole who will ever admit to such things.

... but I do understand that during the September campaign many Poles openly killed German civilians in Danzig.

.

*1 as if ever a person would openly admit his atrocities to a complete stranger.
*2 as if ever a person would openly admit the assumed atrocities of his fellow patriotic men to a complete stranger
* 3 how would YOU react if the FIRST act of terrorism and unprovoked WARact is a graciously invited MOTHAFOKKIN BIG BATTLE SHIP IN YOUR HARBOUR shooting the shits out of your town destroying and killing polish citizens (women and children too, yes!). HUh ? Pearl Harbour and japanese foreigners ? Pearl harbour and japanese US citizens ?
(don't pretend you could keep your cool in otherperson's personal horrific situations from the privacy and sanctuary of your keyboard....).
A battleship in those days is the SUMMUM of military destructive power. The Nuke bomb of 1940 so to speak. And that shit came off in YOUR town....how would you react ?

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

more shit about Brandenburgers:
Bataillon Ebbinghaus – Poland

The original formation, designated Bataillon Ebbinghaus was formed mostly from Volksdeutsche from Poland who were fluent in Polish. The battalion was formed with support of the OKW, which had been arranged by Canaris, but meant that the unit fell under Wehrmacht command. A large number of the recruits were small time criminals and various thugs who fled from Poland.[2]

Fall Weiss (Plan White), involved small groups of German special forces dressed in civilian clothes crossing the Polish border the night before the German invasion and seizing key strategic points before dawn on the day of the invasion. The secret Abwehr battalion detailed to undertake these operations was given the euphemistic title of "Training and Construction Company 800 for Special Duties". A group under the command of Lieutenant Hans-Albrecht Herzner had to capture a railway station at Mosty in the Jablunkov Pass to prevent the destruction of a railway tunnel. Crossing the border on August 26, 1939, Herzner's group managed to capture the railway station at Mosty later that afternoon. Out of contact with the Abwehr, Herzner did not know that the previous evening, after the British and French hinted at further appeasement of Hitler's demands, Adolf Hitler had postponed the invasion; every other commando unit had been informed of this except his. It was not until 9.35am the following day that the Abwehr finally managed to get through to Herzner and order him to release his Polish prisoners and return (see Jabłonków Incident).

The Ebbinghausers also had created confusion in the Polish rear by capturing or destroying major road and rail junctions, as well as helping the advancing troops by securing vital bridges and other strategic targets and preventing their demolition. Despite the success of the Bataillon Ebbinghaus, it was disbanded immediately after the campaign.

During the invasion of Poland itself, Battalion Ebbinghaus engaged in mass atrocities against Poland's population and captured PoWs.[3] On September 4, members of the Freikorps Ebbinghaus executed 17 defenders of Pszczyna among them boy scouts from the Pszczyna secondary schools,[4] and 29 citizens of Orzesze who were tortured before execution.[5][6] Further massacre happened in Siemanowice on 8 September where 6 Poles were murdered in mass execution, on 1 October 1939 Freikorps murdered 18 people in Nowy Bytom.[7] Larger massacres happened in Katowice where hundreds of people were executed.[3]

Re: Murdering of Volksdeutsche in Poland in 1939

And here is where I remembered their name and action of secretive 5th column actions in Holland 1940:
No doubt something they have learned before in Poland/Danzig:

The Brandenburgers saw extensive action in Fall Gelb, clearing the way for the Fallschirmjäger before the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael. On 8 May, two nights before the opening of the offensive the Brandenburgers went into action. Donning the enemies' uniforms over their own German ones (so they could quickly change in case of capture and be treated as POWs rather than spies and facing execution), small groups began to cross the border into the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg.

One of the few actions that was successful[8] in the opening days of the campaign was the seizure of the Meuse bridge in the Dutch town of Gennep. An eight-man team, led by Leutnant Wilhelm Walther, was given the task of capturing the bridge intact. At 2am on May 10, Walther's team, now disguised as Dutch military police escorting German prisoners, made their assault. Two guard posts were destroyed, but three Brandenburgers were wounded and the team was pinned down. Dressed in a Dutch uniform, Walther advanced across the bridge. The confused defenders hesitated, allowing the rest of the team to take them out, seizing the bridge and disabling the detonators. Many more operations like this took place over the course of the campaign. However very few were successful and on another bridge, Brandenburgers were arrested by Dutch troops and shot as spies.