Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Blackfyreafter I overclocked from 4.2Ghz to 4.7Ghz, under the exact SAME SVP setting which worked fine with no delayed frames or dropped frames in MPC+Madvr, the amount of artifacts decreased.

are you familiar with the term "placebo"?

Considering I've studied psychology for 2 years and left it to study politics. Yes, I'm very well aware of the placebo effect. If I had a DSLR Camera capable of shooting at high frame rates I'd have recorded a video to show exactly what I mean.

It's not placebo, the evidence is there right in front of me. Unless I'm suffering from some weird mental illness known as SVP Syndrome, I haven't taken that into account, but I doubt I am haha.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Blackfyre wrote:

the argument I use is that since MPDN Direct3D 11 API decreases CPU usage, RAM, and GPU usage and uses them differently to how Direct3D 9ex does, it leaves SVP with a bigger head-room to use those resources (both the GPU for GPU-Acceleration & the CPU for making frames), thus resulting in less artifacts, because SVP has more resources to work with...

Could anyone enlighten me the differences between DX11 and DX9 and its correlation with reducing artifacts?

Is there any way to reduce interpolated frame artifact near-to-none? Let the CPU/GPU usage is not an issue first.

For the TS, could you give some screen shot that show the differences between video that played in MPC and MPDN?It will easily illustrate on how MPDN reduces artifact better than MPC.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

mashingan wrote:

Blackfyre wrote:

the argument I use is that since MPDN Direct3D 11 API decreases CPU usage, RAM, and GPU usage and uses them differently to how Direct3D 9ex does, it leaves SVP with a bigger head-room to use those resources (both the GPU for GPU-Acceleration & the CPU for making frames), thus resulting in less artifacts, because SVP has more resources to work with...

Could anyone enlighten me the differences between DX11 and DX9 and its correlation with reducing artifacts?

Is there any way to reduce interpolated frame artifact near-to-none? Let the CPU/GPU usage is not an issue first.

For the TS, could you give some screen shot that show the differences between video that played in MPC and MPDN?It will easily illustrate on how MPDN reduces artifact better than MPC.

That's why I said if I had a DSLR Camera, print-screen doesn't work with MPDN in FSM.

According to the developer of SVP above, it's placebo, I personally see a difference myself. I'll see if I can do screen-shots using a third-party app. Also how will I time the screenshot so perfectly, so that it captures at that specific time of the video? lol is there a way to time screenshots?

Edit:

In real-time, taking a print screen, this is the closest I can get, but artifacts don't really show properly on screenshots for some reason, this scene is riddled with artifacts on MPC+Madvr watching it live, in the screenshot all I see is one tiny artifact anyway the differences are clear...

pay attention to the top right horn? on his face, you can see the artifact on the MPC+Madvr, be it small, in live that scene, his whole body looks like it has a 1ms ghost behind it re-doing what it's doing... but it's a really fast moving camera scene and is a rare occasion...

Have a look at the MPDN image compared to the MPC+Madvr one... Look at the background, how much clearer it is even though motion is extremely fast in this scene (sharper+clearer). I'll try and grab better screenshots, but it's impossible to time them perfectly to capture the same frame on both players... unless there's a way I'm unaware of?

Edit #2:

Okay in the pictures below you can't tell me that the difference in that is placebo (it's closer in millisecond compared to the above picture) took me a few tries to get it so close... It's significantly clearer, and this is in extremely fast scenes btw, in normal scenes the difference is noticeable too, it just provides me with a much better, smoother, faster, clearer viewing experience compared to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

BlackFyre

From your examples, MPDN dropped the frame. Well, the artifact is definitely reduced, but it surely reduces the smoothness, no?

For live video movies, just my opinion though, 24->48 and 24->60 sometimes really hard to be discerned. 24->48 is double frame rate, while 24->60 is "to display refresh rate".But if you watch anime, the movements are not really dynamic as live video movies, it is huge differences in smoothness.

When I tried to watch some live movies/video, I changed the SVP setting to double frame rate instead of "to display refresh rate", because it's exact multiple and the movements are dynamic enough to give me placebo of smoothness and it definitely reduces the artifact.

That's why I tend to agree with SVP dev that different players with same SVP setting is placebo.

Maybe, this is just some uneducated guess , when the MPDN tries to render the video, it compares the original frame and the interpolated one. It calculates the vector differences between between the original and interpolated one, if the difference bigger than permitted limit, it will drop some frames.When I tried some anime, it didn't drop any frame, well, because anime has clear edge and its movements are not dynamic as live movies/videos, so the vector differences are not huge as live movies.That's why when I tried it, the CPU usage is heavier than using MPC while it didn't reduce any artifact at all.Again, it's just my guess and uneducated one, maybe SVP dev could correct it

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

mashingan wrote:

BlackFyre

From your examples, MPDN dropped the frame. Well, the artifact is definitely reduced, but it surely reduces the smoothness, no?

No, MPDN dropping frames doesn't effect the smoothness whatsoever (in fact, that's my point, if there's no delayed frames, it's actually slightly smoother than MPC & PotPlayer; I already explained why MPDN drops frames on the first page; or why I believe it drops frames with SVP). The best way to test smoothness is with movies like the Hobbit which are originally shot at 48FPS, but I have them at 24fps. The difference is very noticeable. Both MPC and MPDN are arguably equally as smooth with the same settings on SVP (give or take a little, that MPDN might be slightly smoother), but the difference is the amount of artifacts and their size (both of which are lower and/or smaller on MPDN).

Uhh, all 1080p Blu-ray discs are only 30fps or lower, which kind of defeats the purpose of what I was hypothesizing...

If the video is already 60FPS and you're not using SVP to create extra-frames, any player should be able to run it, even on low-end hardware. What's the point? You're not really creating any extra frames if you're running a 60fps video @60fps using SVP (makes the whole point of the program redundant).

That's why the best way to test SVP is on high res/bitrate (what dlr5668 said) and with videos that have a lower FPS than your monitor (aka 24fps, 25fps, and 30fps content; I don't even use SVP for 60FPS content). I also upscale to 1440p, without upscaling on a 1080p monitor/tv/projector watching 1080p content, I can probably push for better settings. But I'm waiting for OLED TV Prices to go down to buy a TV for my room, probably towards the end of the year. I regret not getting a Panasonic Plasma before they stopped making them.

Besides, my comment on 60fps is purely regarding mashingan's hypothesis of dropped frames - I haven't had the time to investigate MPDN just yet.

My bad mate, that makes complete sense. I assumed you had a 60Hz monitor. I really do wonder how videos play on a 120Hz or 144Hz monitor with LightBoost or other strobing techniques @ 120fps or @144fps. Must be amazing!

You're right though, for you 60fps is probably the best way to test, but for me on a 60Hz monitor, there's little benefit in increasing the FPS further. It only affects lower FPS videos to run at higher frame-rates. Try higher quality 60fps videos though. I'm sure there's some around in blu-ray quality that you can always use for testing.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Dropped frames with MPC+Madvr (if smooth motion is enabled) destroys smoothness. Can you guys test MPDN with the frame dropping and tell me if you see it not being smooth, before claiming that it isn't.

I'm not talking out of my backside. Try it before you act all technical, I don't know why it says it's dropping frames when it runs extremely smooth and even smoother than MPC (well I know why I already explained it earlier)...

PS: I know what usually happens when frame drops occur with other media players, that lag or stuttering doesn't occur whatsoever with MPDN and render times remain very low too. BTW frame drops only occur with SVP with MPDN. As for the artifacts decreasing after overclocking: well they do decrease, in the same scenes I can see them decreasing (before and after overclock).

It's not that hard to download the player and run it, it doesn't even install, you just have to run it and add ffdshow and you're done. Try it and see what I mean.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

I can think of one way how it works with less artifacts: svp interpolates to less artifact multiplier (like 3x or 4x making video 72 or 96fps) and then just drops some frames to match monitor's rate. Possibly less artifacts but less smooth.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

But the topic creator uses a 144hz monitor, which is exactly 6x of 24fps...

(assuming the user is using 24fps content)

No I don't, I don't say I use a 144Hz monitor, not in the article (in fact I specifically say I don't and state exactly why I force it 144Hz). Not in the first page, which I also mention why I do it. And above on this page I also clearly state I wish to try it one day with a 144Hz monitor with strobing.

So you didn't read the article? You didn't try my settings? You didn't even thoroughly read my comments above or on the last page. But you sit and criticise what I've been saying without even trying it? With all due respect sir, that's very disrespectful.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Dropped frames with MPC+Madvr destroys smoothness. Can you guys test MPDN with the frame dropping and tell me if you see it not being smooth, before claiming that it isn't.

Like I said, it's illusion of smoothness. See the word noticeable in my previous post.

mashingan wrote:

Dropping frames does affect the smoothness, but to be noticeable or not is matter of placebo

Now, have you ever tried SVP setting with "double frame-rate (2x)" instead of "to screen refresh rate" ?It's better to see by yourself how the illusion works even in MPC.P.S.1 : Assuming your display refresh rate is 60hz and video is 24fps.P.S.2 : Try it with some anime episodes to see how the illusion breaks down

If you get the differences between that two setting, you definitely know why MPDN still (looks) smooths and reduces the artifacts albeit drops frames.The hint is 4:2 and 5:2.

Re: A Better/Faster/Smoother Solution to MPC+Madvr & PotPlayer

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

I read the article, but I last read it when you first made this thread, and I already stated that I was hesitant to respond initially, and I still am hesitant to directly give any impressions until I test it myself.

My bad... It's just people say it isn't as smooth as MPC without trying it, I'm saying I don't know why MPDN drops frames or if it just wrongly states it does when SVP is running, but the two comments above one about the driver and the one attempting to explain maybe how it achieves it with less artifacts are at least trying to explain what's happening rather than being condescending like some of the people above. It's not even a 5 minute process, it'll probably take less time to try it than to write a comment. Then at least they can say I've tried it and it's not as smooth as MPC, rather than just outright shutting it down completely with no evidence whatsoever.