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Topic: Why I am here (Read 4189 times)

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him. I know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume. In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

You post is full of non-starters and presumptions - you have no reason to assume that you will be treated badly. May I suggest you get in on some of the conversations, and maybe start a new thread asking something specific. Get to know the regular members, and see where it leads. Most of the members are reasonable, and would not attack you for no reason at all. If you are willing to ask questions, and consider other points of view, you will learn more about atheists on this forum than you might imagine.

If you are truly seeking a better understanding of our world, and how it works, the one thing you will need to get used to is that non-believers would much rather admit that they do not have an answer, than make one up. And anyone who claims knowledge of a supreme being like a god, is making it up. And even if they happen to guess right, that there is actually a god, there is literally no way to objectively show it, therefore, it remains non-existent.

why angry? An odd emotion to feel about a God who promises another world; i.e., if you truly believe in this God, your focus is in the next world.

I don't believe in him but I'm just saying.

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I know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.

Well, atheists won't help you defend the faith. I've listend to William Lane Craig and find most of his arguments pretty unconvincing. Unaware of anybody better.

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In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

It sounds suspiciously like you already disbelieve?

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It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

Intelligent believers generally don't believe in a literal bible.

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I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

It doesn't sound like you are very prepared in this respect. The tea pot is the best anti-bible claim

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Here is your first problem. Claiming a literal bible is tantamount to intellectual suicide. You need to learn the history of the bible. Who wrote it, how we know who wrote it, how many problems there are with it, etc. I suggest reading some Bart Ehrman. You will learn some stuff in there that might make belief in a literal bible pretty much impossible.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time.

OK. But remember, when you postulate an all powerful, supreme being who can literally do anything, then anything we say can be countered with something that the all powerful, supreme being can do without a second thought. If you are going to presuppose that it exists, then the discussion is over before it starts. You have to start with the neutral position..." Does God exist?" and work from there. All we can provide you is with reasonable doubt for the existence of the God character of the bible. Fortunately, it's a landslide of reasonable doubt. A tidal wave of reasonable doubt. A galactic collision of reasonable doubt. But it will never be more than that. Just like all we can provide you is reasonable doubt for the existence of Zeus or Thor too. The case against the God of the bible is equally as strong as the case against a multitude of other fictional characters.

Note: If you really are curious, then let your responses reflect an understanding of the arguments we are presenting, and make sure if you are going to refute them, that you do so with as much evidence as you can provide. For example, if you are going to refute number 2, below, by simply saying "yes we do have the originals", then please present a link or some evidence that you have them.

1. We don't know who wrote the gospels. No idea. This fact brings serious doubt into the validity of the claims written within. In fact, many of the books in the NT were not written by who they are normally believed to have been written by. 2. We have no original copies of the bible in any form. What we have are copies of copies of copies of copies written and translated by people with poor skills, and with personal agendas. The copies we do have, when compared with one another, have more discrepancies than there are words in the entire New Testament. 3. The Gospels were written (at the earliest) 40 years after the death of Jesus, and John was supposedly written in the early second century. 4. The 4 gospels tell different versions of a verbally passed down story about a man named Jesus. If you read them horizontally (passage for passage) you will see that the Jesus character is very different from book to book. 5. The prophecies in the OT are said to have been fulfilled in the NT, but just think about it... if you had the OT in your hands, and you wanted the Jesus character to look like the messiah, yet still remain somewhat true to his real life story that was being passed around, how hard would i t be for you to make up a story in which Jesus fulfilled a bunch of the prophecies? Not hard at all. And considering it wasn't written down for 40 years after he died, who would be alive to refute the actions he supposedly did? Nobody. 6. There is no extra-biblical evidence for the occurrences of any of the miracles performed by Jesus. In fact, a very strong case can be made that Jesus never existed even as a person. 7. There is no evidence of a resurrection.

I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.

Anger and hate do not change the validity of an argument. They just spice it up

I don't know why, but part of me wonders if you are a very secure-in-your-beliefs Christian trying to bait people into taking up this argument with you. I don't mind that at all, and quite honestly, if this is the case, you don't need to bait people here into arguing with you about biblical literalism. You will get lots of people coming at you either way. I hope that part of me is wrong though, and that you really are here to learn something from us.

Christianperson, it's within the realm of possibility that there are one or more gods or god-like beings out there somewhere who are willing to engage you, mentor you and generally help you make the most of your life. It doesn't necessarily have to be the god described in the Bible, either; in fact, I consider Biblegod to be a somewhat unlikely implementation of godhood.

If I could only say one thing to you, it would be this: Trust in the basic goodness of your god-concept, and accept no substitutes. A god that would create a hell or drown a planet is simply not good enough to be your god.

And even if it turns out that there are no gods at all[1], there is ample power in the god-archetype to inspire for a lifetime.

Being a christian through most of my teens, i can relate to this. See, the thing is, if you try to extrapolate the "radical indigestible" claims of the bible onto reality, you're going to end up angry and confused. Sadly, I see my dad deal with this almost daily.

The text in this holy book is full of promises and descriptions that supposedly originate from some sovereign deity. Radical concepts that should immediately arouse suspicion such as the eternal soul, heaven and hell, unconditional election, and original sin are tossed around willy nilly. If you continue to try and live your life in accordance with this Christian dogma, and the bible in general, you are going to be one frustrated individual. Christians are widely regarded as hypocritical because they preach these lofty biblical platitudes, yet don't live their life accordingly. Why is this the case? Because you'd have to be bat shit crazy to live a life similar to that of the utterly ignorant bronze age Israelite, especially in this enlightened day and age.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

If you want to learn, you're in the right place. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy traversing the frenzied intellectual battlefield that is WWGHA, just try not to step on any ill-logic-mines

« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 10:50:34 PM by The Wannabe »

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"I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance." -Friedrich Nietzsche

WOW! I am overwhelmed! Very thought provoking and kind responses. Lots of stuff to digest here. Honestly I probably need to read good anti-God book, and for that matter more old testament. Not all of these anti-bible claims are brand new to me but I clearly understand where disbelief happens. I just do not have the time to address all of you because it seems many of you have differing beliefs. If you don't believe Jesus was God, or that he was right that is one thing. Saying he did not exist is another. If I was in a prison cell great, but whipping out all the references that convinced me Jesus existed would prevent serious play time with family.

My sore spots with God? Hell for one, and explicit verses about how prayer yields results with enough faith is another. I know the Christian answers. But if God said "if you have enough faith it will happen" then it should happen right? I wish the bible would say "if you have your plans in line with Mine I can make anything happen". It would make sense to me then. Maybe faith means something differently than believing 100%. Perhaps its time for a hebrew dictionary as well. There is my confusion.

That said I have been petrified by what I believe God communicating to me his presence of love. And No I am not the Christian that takes anti-biotics and and claims it was a miracle healing.

Are my beliefs in Christ pretty strong still? Yes. There are questions I am struggling with and It frustrates me. Characters in the bible doubted at times too. So unlike Some Christians I feel this doubting can lead to stronger faith. Feel free to recommend more books. The God Delusion perhaps?

whipping out all the references that convinced me Jesus existed would prevent serious play time with family.

The case for the existence of a historical person exists but it is somewhat circumstancial. For the record, I think the historical guy probably existed.

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My sore spots with God? Hell for one

Ok.

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, and explicit verses about how prayer yields results with enough faith is another. I know the Christian answers. But if God said "if you have enough faith it will happen" then it should happen right?

Careful reading of the verses saying this in context, wouldn't yield that interpretation. The God of the New Testament was believed in by people who were being stoned, crucified, burned alive and fed to the lions.

If the verses means they could get what they want; the faith would have died with the stoning of Stepen.

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I wish the bible would say "if you have your plans in line with Mine I can make anything happen". It would make sense to me then.

What kind of plans for their lives did the New Testament Christians have? "I want to grow up to be lunch for a big fat lion"?

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Maybe faith means something differently than believing 100%. Perhaps its time for a hebrew dictionary as well. There is my confusion.

That said I have been petrified by what I believe God communicating to me his presence of love. And No I am not the Christian that takes anti-biotics and and claims it was a miracle healing.

Ok.

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Are my beliefs in Christ pretty strong still? Yes. There are questions I am struggling with and It frustrates me. Characters in the bible doubted at times too. So unlike Some Christians I feel this doubting can lead to stronger faith. Feel free to recommend more books. The God Delusion perhaps?

They don't sound strong; your life focus sounds like its grounded very much in this world?

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"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution.

I'm an atheist myself and will admit that I would like to see you become one as well, but to be fair, belief in Yahweh does not require rejecting biological evolution. Many Christians accept both.

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I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect).

Well, I can just about guarantee that you've come to the right place.

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In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him. I know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys

No, it isn't, but I actually find it encouraging. If you find fault with Yahweh, it's probably an indication that you're examining your beliefs more frankly than more "hardcore" believers.

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It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes.

It must be pretty inconvenient, to say the least.

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But instead of calling half of it figurative like some.

Right, we like to call that "having the Magic Decoder Ring". The believer chooses what's literal and what isn't, according to what he likes.

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I would just rather be an athiest.

If you stay and continue to engage us, there's a good chance that will happen. Be aware, though, that it can be a time-consuming process. There's a lot to look at, and it's an emotional process as much as an intellectual one. Or at least, so I understand. I'm one of the fortunate few who's never been a believer at all, so I never experienced the anguish that so many report regarding the conversion process.

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The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

Again, to be fair, it's also theoretically possible that some of them did and others didn't. We do know, as certainly as is possible, in any event, that some of them definitely did not.

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I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time.

OK, good deal.

Welcome to WWGHA. I hope you find your stay here educational and helpful.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him. I know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.

I was confused and angry with Christians when I was a Christian (Presbyterian variety). I decided then to go direcly to the big guy. When I found nothing, I realized that Christianity, and after a little more looking, all religions were nonsense. It’s okay to feel the way you do. You have been tricked by people you’ve trusted.

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In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

One doesn’t need a magical deity to have good values. Assuming you already have them, you don’t have far to go to just get rid of a primitive deity that does nothing.

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It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

I do think that some of theh bible is figurative. However, all of the important parts are declared literal and there is simply no evidence for any of them. No miracles, no flood, no JC son of god or god himself come to earth, no accurate prophecies, etc. If you think these are literally and can be supported, you are wrong. But you are welcome to try to support your claims. I’d also recommend that you read the mail bag section of this forum to see how we handle various claims.

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I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

I’ll warn you now, your attempt to declare what you will and what you wont answer by your vague definition is a warning flag to most here. This means you could intend on ignoring anything you don’t like by declaring it “hateful” or not “adult” just as a way to avoid a hard question. You’ll get nailed on that in an instant. You also need to know that claiming that you don’t have time to answer isn’t a very good way to avoid hard questions either. I do understand that everyone has a real life outside of this but far too many theists claim to have all of the answers and then when they are demonstrated not to, they run away with sad little Parthian shots. If you want to limit the number of questions you’ll be asked, you should ask for a “debate room” and pick out one or a few people that can participate so you don’t get overwhelmed.

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If you don't believe Jesus was God, or that he was right that is one thing. Saying he did not exist is another.

Did Jesus Chrsit son of God exist or did a itinerant rabbi exist that had stories built up about him? Those are two very different characters.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 11:20:43 AM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I am certainly reading between the lines, and guessing a bit to the true nature of your current standing on God/Christianity, but just thought I'd chime in.

The best advice I can give you is to look at the Bible, God, and Christianity objectively. Try to shed the notion that "God must exist" or "the Bible is true" and approach it as you would any claim or story. For some people (me included) fear will begin to creep in as your near (or consider) the revelation that God does not exist, the Bible is errant in many ways, and we are all alone on this Earth with no special significance. I believe this is one of the main things that hold so many Christians back from really seeking their true feelings.

We can still live meaningful lives without the promise of an afterlife. We can strive to be successful, have a family, and help other people without belief in God. I am happier now than I ever was before (as a Christian) because I don't feel constant conflict between what I want to do and what the Bible says is "right". I feel more compassion for others than I ever have in my life, I feel now that nothing is more important than protecting the rights or happiness of other humans...because I truly believe this life is ALL WE HAVE.

It seems you have a very positive attitude right now, just continue to search. Don't feel like you need to make a decision today, tomorrow, or a year from now. Just don't allow the inner fear of no life after death, no meaning, I'm all alone, and other things to keep you from the truth.

We can still live meaningful lives without the promise of an afterlife.

I'd argue that we can lead vastly more meaningful lives without the promise of an afterlife.Urgency is a powerful motivator. Why expend effort and possibly screw up your opportunity to get into heaven if all you have to do is sit back and die?

The fact that you find yourself in doubt speaks volumes about Biblegod.

The fact that he created you with the ability to doubt suggests that he is like a cosmic Monty Hall, giving you clues that are best ambiguous, and forcing you to choose between Door #1, #2, or #3...under the condition that you will spend eternity with whatever is behind that door. What I mean is, Door #1 might represent Christianity, #2 Islam, #3 Judaism, #4 Hinduism, etc. Only 1 door being correct, and the other doors leading to Hell.

This is an omnipotent god that creates infinity smaller and weaker beings (us) and forces us to spend our lives playing Holy Head Games with him.

Heck, he might have even created you with the intent that you would become an atheist, so as to be free of the nagging feelings of fear and guilt that accompany belief in a giant invisible CIA agent.

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him. I know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.

Just a few thoughts on this paragraph.

1. Losing faith is not actually a loss. 2. In much the same way, having doubts is not a crisis. It's perfectly natural.3. There's no need to capitalize the word atheist, just as you don't capitalize theist.

I wouldn't recommend starting your "anti-god" reading with The God Delusion. It can be fairly harsh coming in from the believer point of view. I would strongly suggest starting with 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God. And you can check out this thread for more suggestions.

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He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.-– Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

Thank you everybody. I will be temporarily leaving this forum for a while to study, and question things. Why leave then? Well.... I have much to think about and chew on and I lack the focus not to get sidetracked on other irr-relevent topics regarding my faith struggle rampant on this forum. I am not here to evangelize.I feel it is best to read a good book or two by an atheist author.I Have noted your recommendations as well. I also clearly need to understand the bible more, and better interpret the verses within context. Maybe I need to join a Bible forum too;).

Here is my plan.1.Read Anti God stuff with as open mind as possible.2.Read bible in same manner.3.Pray (though I have my skeptical feelings about prayer in regards to healing, I still get chills down my back about times I believe he answered regarding my spiritual direction).4.When stumped ask questions from experts in both viewpoints. .

Thanks again you were insightful, kind, and very thorough. Great forum. Time to go book shopping now.

I'd argue that we can lead vastly more meaningful lives without the promise of an afterlife.Urgency is a powerful motivator. Why expend effort and possibly screw up your opportunity to get into heaven if all you have to do is sit back and die?

Or as said in Battlestar Galactica: "The very fact that you DO die, is what GIVES your life meaning." A Cylon speaking to humans, and in opposition to Resurrection.

Thank you everybody. I will be temporarily leaving this forum for a while to study, and question things. Why leave then? Well.... I have much to think about and chew on and I lack the focus not to get sidetracked on other irr-relevent topics regarding my faith struggle rampant on this forum. I am not here to evangelize.I feel it is best to read a good book or two by an atheist author.I Have noted your recommendations as well. I also clearly need to understand the bible more, and better interpret the verses within context. Maybe I need to join a Bible forum too;).

Here is my plan.1.Read Anti God stuff with as open mind as possible.2.Read bible in same manner.3.Pray (though I have my skeptical feelings about prayer in regards to healing, I still get chills down my back about times I believe he answered regarding my spiritual direction).4.When stumped ask questions from experts in both viewpoints. .

Thanks again you were insightful, kind, and very thorough. Great forum. Time to go book shopping now.

Best regards

I say this in all sincerity: best of luck to you. If you're serious about this exploring of your doubts - and it seems you are - it's likely going to be a difficult and emotional process. The best advice has already been given at this point: do everything in your power to realize your own possible bias and stay objective. Examine everything as many times as it takes, and try and push past the fear of "losing God" - it'll happen, or not, at the end of your search one way or another, so go at it full force. Find more than one voice/source on a subject - as well as the opposite side - and also make certain you check the validity of your research. (also, I'll second the whole bit about history/history of religion: despite becoming a nonbeliever, as someone who already studies history, my study of religious history has gotten me pretty fascinated into the stuff!)

At the end, it doesn't come down to your family, your friends, or even "your" "God" (..if you believe in free will, anyways! ) - but you. You're the one that ultimately has to take a long hard look and decide in what you do or do not believe. (I suggest, even if you don't post/much, to stick around, though!)

So was Moses and look what he became. be it atheism or new faith i hope you find what you're looking for. you seem like a nice person. as most of us can probably tell you the biggest argument against the validity of the bible was the bible itself. try reading it all the way through, not just verse by verse.. although you can skip the line from adam. all that living and begating gets really tiresome fast.