Post by Parduz on Jul 7, 2014 3:52:07 GMT -9

David, I have the "usual" complain....

... a couple of friend asked me about it. Now, they already know the quality of your art, and they can see the foldflat walls etc. What the can't have a clue about is the game itself. I have both your "minigames" (as they're called on your RPGNOW page) so i have an idea of what it could be your Darkfast Dungeons but.... you already said that the game is new.So, my complain is: give us clues about THE GAME. We see materials, art, but not "game".Pls.

Post by gilius on Jul 7, 2014 5:18:28 GMT -9

Agreed with Parduz. Thinking about the Kickstarter general audience, not the communities that already know your previous works, having more info about the game may make a lot of difference to get more backers. There are general hints: random tile-based dungeon with possibly some scenario-specific rules, playable in 2-3 hours, using some sort of card decks... if you stop the preview video at around 0:42 you may have a glimpse of what are the hero stats... but I am not sure prospective backers will be fond of doing some "detective work" instead of having the info provided to them. Furthermore, there are several dungeon crawl games in the market so providing more info might help backers understanding the differences in terms of rules.

Post by okumarts on Jul 7, 2014 5:31:16 GMT -9

I'm doing some play testing tonight and will be updating with regular videos/updates. I am going to be releasing a One Page Skirmish version for free in a few days so people can get a taste for the game.

I am also going to previewing The Dark Depths tonight so that people can see what the Kickstarter only set will look like.

Post by oldschooldm on Jul 7, 2014 5:41:10 GMT -9

@okumarks - another common practice is to release a draft of the rules immediately to backers with no art, etc. and invite them to provide feedback. It offsets the risk associated in buying a game designed by an "unproven/untested" designer.

Sure - someone could "steal" the draft rules, but that kind of person will steal them anyway.

Post by wyvern on Jul 7, 2014 10:29:08 GMT -9

Funded before I'd even seen the KS page...

David, might be helpful to edit your original posting on page 1 here to add the KS URL; would make it easier for newcomers to find it - and selfishly, also all us old lags too idle to read through all the later postings, of course

Sorry these aren't the final cover artworks, as they seem very striking and original to me. Hopefully, something very similar, though?

Agree with the earlier comments ( Parduz, gilius, oldschooldm ) about giving more game details on the KS page. This is so important for those people unfamiliar with your work, but who still have lovely cash they'd like to give you, once they realise why they need to

Paypal would be good. It's surprising how many KS projects seem to come to this as an afterthought, yet it also seems to be one of the earliest questions for those projects not offering the service from the outset. That's something other potential KSers using/visiting the CWF might usefully consider too.

Post by wyvern on Jul 8, 2014 1:49:52 GMT -9

okumarts: David, I have a few questions about the KS, things that occurred to me after reading the KS page, and thinking more about the project overnight.

* Props: Props for the set are mentioned a couple of times, but I'm not clear if these will be 3D, 2.5D (and if either, also fold-flat?) or 2D counters. Might be helpful to clarify.

* Add-Ons - Three Scenario Packs: I'm puzzled as to why these aren't mentioned among the expansions in the second text paragraph describing the project and game, only the Dark Depths and Dragon Lord ones. Maybe it just needs more explanation as to the difference between an "expansion" and a "scenario pack", as right now, I don't see what that difference is, other than availability within the KS. It also looks a little weird that three scenario packs are already available as add-ons, when the rules aren't yet completed (the point of the KS, after all).

* Add-Ons - Expanded Campaigning: Similarly, it seems odd the expanded rules are ready now as an add-on, when the rules themselves aren't finalised.

* Mini numbers: As a long-time role-player and dungeon-crawler/designer/GM, the dozen monster minis per set/expansion seems small compared to the half-dozen adventurers for each, even allowing that that's only potential monster types, and that multiple prints of each may be needed in play. That suggests other minis could be required for some games, using your other mini sets, say, but maybe this would benefit from clarification - i.e. "You can also use existing Okum Arts minis in Darkfast Dungeons", followed by a qualifier as to whether you'll actually need to or not.

* Pledge levels: I can't help feeling there should be a $75 level added, which would include all the lower pledge levels, and also the Add-On Fantasy Package game cards ($12), the Three Scenario Packs ($10) and the Expanded Campaigning rules ($7), thus offering both a small saving on the full Add-On prices, plus the option to go for a "mega-bundle game deal", where you'd get all the expected goodies for a fantasy dungeon-crawl. It has the further option that people coming to a KS could be more likely to support a project, than buy additional extras (which here look as if they really should be part of the complete game package, and aren't truly optional extras at all).

Haven't checked the KS page text again in detail today, so if you've already covered some of the above, well and good!

Post by okumarts on Jul 8, 2014 4:42:42 GMT -9

3 hours ago wyvern said:okumarts: David, I have a few questions about the KS, things that occurred to me after reading the KS page, and thinking more about the project overnight.

* Props: Props for the set are mentioned a couple of times, but I'm not clear if these will be 3D, 2.5D (and if either, also fold-flat?) or 2D counters. Might be helpful to clarify.

I am hoping to post some photos of the props by the end of the week. They are a combination of 2.5 and 3 D, not fold flat. There are stats/rules for ones that can be of use in the game. I know this is something I needed to get to sooner, but I've been working on the game cards and the preview skirmish PDF.

3 hours ago wyvern said:* Add-Ons - Three Scenario Packs: I'm puzzled as to why these aren't mentioned among the expansions in the second text paragraph describing the project and game, only the Dark Depths and Dragon Lord ones. Maybe it just needs more explanation as to the difference between an "expansion" and a "scenario pack", as right now, I don't see what that difference is, other than availability within the KS. It also looks a little weird that three scenario packs are already available as add-ons, when the rules aren't yet completed (the point of the KS, after all).

The expansions offer a FULL set of tiles and walls, heroes and monsters for a specific theme. The scenarios offer some tiles, walls, props, and monsters (as well as notable npcs), as well as a specific dungeon/setting/adventure along the lines of the old modules. The material from the scenarios will be usable for the regular game and can be thrown into the mix, but some items will be pretty specific.

The Expanded Campaigning book is how it all started. The board game came out of an Irish 10th century game I ran as an RPG. The expanded campaigning rules are there, just need editing and layout/prettification.

3 hours ago wyvern said:* Mini numbers: As a long-time role-player and dungeon-crawler/designer/GM, the dozen monster minis per set/expansion seems small compared to the half-dozen adventurers for each, even allowing that that's only potential monster types, and that multiple prints of each may be needed in play. That suggests other minis could be required for some games, using your other mini sets, say, but maybe this would benefit from clarification - i.e. "You can also use existing Okum Arts minis in Darkfast Dungeons", followed by a qualifier as to whether you'll actually need to or not.

The Mini numbers are something I was looking at with my play test group last night. I have 6 hero types: Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage, Elf, and Dwarf. Each of these has a male and female mini so it's 12 figures or one page of minis. There are 6 character cards. Not all the characters are playing at the same time, but I suppose there could be. One of the stretch goals was 12 new minis, basically alternate versions of the original 6 class figures. The monster numbers need to be more specific and I will change that today. I originally had it worded as over a dozen monsters, but I didn't like the way it looked so I changed it to the number 12. In reality, it's a lot more so I should let people know. (3 sheets so really more like 26 unique monster figures) I will update those numbers today as I finish some cards and finalize what I will keep and what I will cut.

3 hours ago wyvern said:* Pledge levels: I can't help feeling there should be a $75 level added, which would include all the lower pledge levels, and also the Add-On Fantasy Package game cards ($12), the Three Scenario Packs ($10) and the Expanded Campaigning rules ($7), thus offering both a small saving on the full Add-On prices, plus the option to go for a "mega-bundle game deal", where you'd get all the expected goodies for a fantasy dungeon-crawl. It has the further option that people coming to a KS could be more likely to support a project, than buy additional extras (which here look as if they really should be part of the complete game package, and aren't truly optional extras at all).

I like this idea. I hadn't considered HOW people support KS, just how I have supported KS in the past.

3 hours ago wyvern said:Haven't checked the KS page text again in detail today, so if you've already covered some of the above, well and good!

Thanks again, I have benefited greatly from this process and people have been very generous with advice and assistance. D.

Post by okumarts on Jul 8, 2014 4:44:23 GMT -9

I should have a skirmish kit available sometime this week. It will have a hero card, a monster card and the basic skirmish rules. It should help explain how to play and long time supporters will notice how it has evolved from the days of Katana Schoolgirls or Snowball Wars.

Post by Rhannon on Jul 8, 2014 11:13:42 GMT -9

Hi David I am writing here but I am not referring directly and exclusively to your kickstarter project. And these aren't criticisms about your project. I really like it. For real!

These are just my personal thoughts about myself and what I prefer when I follow a kickstarter project.

I consider myself a poor/average backer ( I only backed some twenty projects, I prefer downloadable products, but this is not a hard and fast rule, and especially I like indie producers )

So here are some things that attract me as a "poor" backer. And others that I think will be useful to a kickstarter project.

Often some people tend to consider, imho, a kickstarter project a bit as a pre-sale. From this point of view ( which of course is valid only for physical products ), shipping costs and customs fees almost always make pledges disadvantageous ( it's much more convenient to wait for the sale of the product in stores ). Although it certainly will lose the true kickstarter's spirit, imho.

So I think that first create the curiosity ( and attention ) and then to keep it on the project is one of the key elements for success. How?

On kickstarter project's page with many regular updates ( often daily ), if only to present a new wip artwork. And with a comments'page with always moving.

The same thing is required, imho, outside kickstarter page. Using information sites (TGN and others, the most widely read forums ... facebook ...). Sharing the news increases the potential backers.

Imho the creator needs to know where can realistically get his product. There are one million dollars' projects (and I am only in boardgames ) like zombicide season 3 ( and it is not going particularly well for now imho ), and other like Shadows over Normandie ( where I think they made economic ​​plans too high, for now only hope that more real possibility imho ). Zombicide can have stretch goals every $ 50.000. SoN realistically can't have stretch goals every $ 20.000 ( and today the project's creators have lowered all of them at $ 10.000 ).

Why I talk about stretch goals? because they, along with add-ons, pledges and and eventual kickstarter's exclusive ( I'm not really interested in this, I really like sharing or rather its possibility, but it is for many ) are the elements that move a project.

I believe that a first good "downloadable" kickstarter project by a good author can realistically finish in 15.000 and $ 30.000. With a good kickstarter campaign ( ie FDG kickstarter campaigns ). With subsequent campaigns, things should become easier. The creator knows better dynamics, and he himself is best known.

But initially the pledges' levels must be interesting and varied, while the levels of stretch goals should be low and entice them to get quickly to the next level. It doesn't matter that the next stretch goal to offer only a new card or figure or tile or ... , you don't need a thousand and even ten.

Add-ons are always welcome. Especially if they are interesting and there is any savings compared to their future sale. And they can be linked to stretch goals imho ( why not? )

I forgot ... when there are game rules ... it helps give a taste before

Post by okumarts on Jul 8, 2014 19:47:41 GMT -9

OK... first kick at the can for a card layout using some suggestions from here and elsewhere. The blue gauntlet represents character Ability, a general idea of how competent the character is at tasks (everything from avoiding a trap to hitting something with a sword. The fancy heart is Health Points. The hammer in the line below it is the bonus to hit. There will be an arrowhead for ranged attacks. Some characters will have arrowheads AND hammer symbols. The shield is added to defensive rolls. The helmet is what is taken off damage for armour and the red explosion is extra damage done when the target is hit. The T is the number of Talent cards that are chosen. Other symbols will include Magic and Miracles. Special abilities and restrictions will be listed in the box at the bottom of the card. Every hero has one Hero Point at the start of the game and one or more Dark Secrets (drawn from a deck like talents).

Shoutbox

cowboyleland: Now I have seen it. It doesn't advance our hobby, but anyone with half a brain who wanted 2nd rate figures could easily figure this out for themselves so I guess he isn't doing any harm.Mar 19, 2019 17:53:59 GMT -9

berneart76: well, this is fun, (not) transferring all my papercrafting sets into the cloud. The stuff I got from DriveTrhruRPG was simple with their library desktop app,but my other stuff, sometimes with multiple duplicate copies is entertaining.Mar 1, 2019 15:44:32 GMT -9

berneart76: Vermin King I usually use a mix of drybrush/watercolor/photocopy and occasionally posterizing at different levels of opacity.Feb 26, 2019 20:46:54 GMT -9

berneart76: Vermin King, that's similar to the enhancing that I do on my texturing. I've found that sometimes I need to scale up or scale down the image (usually by 50 or 25 percent down or 200 or 300 percent up) to make get the enhancements to look "right"Feb 26, 2019 20:44:53 GMT -9

Vermin King: On the zebras, I did multiple enhancements and cartoon filters and used them at 100%, and they still didn't look that different than the photosFeb 26, 2019 12:27:26 GMT -9

Vermin King: When I make a figure or terrain piece based on a photo, I clean it up and align things to look 'right', then I create another layer and do enhancing and cartoonizing on it. I then adjust opacity over the photo image until it looks good. On the zebras, Feb 26, 2019 12:26:35 GMT -9

Vermin King: berneart76, do you mean giving them green or purple manes and tails? and a few piercings? maybe a cig hanging out of their mouths?Feb 26, 2019 12:24:18 GMT -9

Vermin King: And due to the snow, I'm off tonight. I am going to miss the cash on the paycheck, but I'm glad they want their employees to be safeFeb 15, 2019 10:52:24 GMT -9

ignatious: Actually I was referring to the two previous posts. I was trying to be subtle in order to sublimate the crassness. Read them again, but in Mel Brooks voice while he is winking, and nudging the person to his right.Feb 9, 2019 13:38:11 GMT -9

cowboyleland: We hadn't had snow for a few days. Last night the plow came down my street and did nothing but fill every ones driveways back in. Just for practice, I guess.Feb 8, 2019 7:48:16 GMT -9

Vermin King: In KC we had an ice storm (with thunder sleet) the other night. Left things drivable, but last night the plow came down my street. They took all the rough edges off. Might as well have ran a Zamboni...Feb 8, 2019 6:42:32 GMT -9