The main problem facing any potential solution proposed for a ticket system next year is that no one knows how many people out there consider themselves "burners". Tallying up all the population totals in the history of the event (off the official BM website), 530,000 total entries have been granted, but there is no way of knowing how many of those are return participants as opposed to new participants. Since last years population of around 55,000 is the highest ever, that is the lowest number of people who could be return participants. The real number lies somewhere in the middle.Why is it so important to know how many people feel they are part of the Burning Man community? Without this count, there is no way to judge the scale of scarcity. All is known is that 120,000 tickets were requested this year. And that was with EVERYONE assuming that there were still 10,000 tickets out there if they were too lazy to register, for the same price as the highest tier in the lottery system. It could be that 60,000 people are serious about attending this years event (and massive amount of scalping is going on), and it could be that 200,000 people have legitimate interest in attending (the vast majority who applied have legitimate interest, and thousands more were lazy and waiting for the 10,000 ticket sale). The solution for the problem of 60,000 people desiring entry could be much more easily solved with discussions with the BLM, and the restructuring of the timing of the event, while the solution for 200,000 playa-dreamers would require a lot more thinking by very smart people. The Burning Man Project must launch simultaneously with Burning Man this year, setting up a democratic community by it's citizens and for it's citizens. The only way to understand the problems faced and the solutions required is for the Burning Man community to set up a membership process. It is the only way to both ensure that community members receive tickets, not scalpers, and solve problems of scarcity in the future.The ideas that have been put forward so far are good ones, but might not solve much. We don't know until we know the scale of demand.-ID-Based ticketing, or any method of ensuring that a ticket sold in a first come first serve or lottery system is sold to the user is a great idea, but if 80,000 people want to go and the capacity is still around 60,000, that's 25% that get randomly screwed. And I think this year showed about how good the random screwing process works. It makes the BMorg cancel the 10k ticket sale. -Expanded Regionals or multiple events in Black Rock Desert over the year is also a wonderful idea, but without an idea on how much excess there is from the main event, how could it be ensured the second event won't immediately sell out as well? And the problem with regionals is that there aren't a whole lotta places in the country where you have alkaline lake beds to do large scale fire events, and not get in trouble with authority. Regionals are mostly different type events, cool, but different.

Starting with this years event, have a sign up at the gate (or a secondary booth just past the gate) for membership in the Burning Man Project. Everyone will be told that all tickets will be distributed solely through the Burning Man Project Membership. Not much should be required for signup - your body is already there. Just a name and email/snail mail should suffice. For those that don't attend the event this year, have sign-up's at afterburn events around the world. Again, the important part is a physical body signing up for a list - this in itself will severely limit scalpers. For those not able to attend the afterburn events (which may themselves sell out!) a sponsorship system, where an existing member sponsors a new one can also be set up.This new Project Community will be asked to participate in a democratic process to elect a leadership that can handle how to divy up the available tickets. By this point (say January next year), everyone would know how many people are actually interested in participating, and each candidate could run on a solution platform. They can arrive at a mutually agreed upon solution, so that everyone in the community feels that there voice has been heard. The Burning Man Community would get to decide how to solve the scarcity problem, not an elite that guarantees entry for themselves and their friends.

This is my solution, which in some ways may be radical, but in many ways I hope it's similar to what the BMorg has been planning with the Burning Man Project all along. Please let me know your thoughts on this idea!

melaniejane wrote:Ok. He wants us all to sign up to be a part of a BM community. And it's run democratically. Decisions made by the majority. That's my interpretation of what he wants.

Oh and I didn't snark or yell.

Thanks You for reading Not to Sign up for a community - the community is already here. But I'd like the community to be democratically run, and the only way for that to happen is people becoming members of an official Burning Man organization. That's the key to everyone being satisfied with decisions made by the org, everyone has a say.

melaniejane wrote:Ok. He wants us all to sign up to be a part of a BM community. And it's run democratically. Decisions made by the majority. That's my interpretation of what he wants.

Oh and I didn't snark or yell.

Thanks You for reading Not to Sign up for a community - the community is already here. But I'd like the community to be democratically run, and the only way for that to happen is people becoming members of an official Burning Man organization. That's the key to everyone being satisfied with decisions made by the org, everyone has a say.

Back in the early or mid-eighties, I volunteered for a college radio station. Every week or every other week--I forget which--some committee would get together to make decisions.I think the llc are a necessary evil. (Insert Simon's "hearding cats" video here.)

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

melaniejane wrote:Ok. He wants us all to sign up to be a part of a BM community. And it's run democratically. Decisions made by the majority. That's my interpretation of what he wants.

Oh and I didn't snark or yell.

Thanks You for reading Not to Sign up for a community - the community is already here. But I'd like the community to be democratically run, and the only way for that to happen is people becoming members of an official Burning Man organization. That's the key to everyone being satisfied with decisions made by the org, everyone has a say.

Back in the early or mid-eighties, I volunteered for a college radio station. Every week or every other week--I forget which--some committee would get together to make decisions.I think the llc are a necessary evil. (Insert Simon's "hearding cats" video here.)

The Org's necessary. The BLM wouldn't be at all willing to deal on the scale it does with the anarchist collective any large-scale Burner democracy would turn into.

HookahGod wrote:Hmm.. people prefer an oligarchy to a democracy. Lesson Learned!

No, it is just that the democracy you set forth would be suited to handle, say, 100 members - like a neighborhood organization. Your plan is way too unwieldy for 60,000+ members and an infrastructure that needs to be in motion by January - not just beginning campaigning by then.

moonrise wrote:I know my grammar sucks, but, uh, I think the OP out did me this time around (and forever).I cannot read that block of text. Can anyone else read it?

Yeah. I read it and I get what he's saying. But...

HookahGod wrote:The main problem facing any potential solution proposed for a ticket system next year is that no one knows how many people out there consider themselves "burners".

This is not the MAIN problem. The MAIN problem is that there are more people who want to go than there is space available.

HookahGod wrote: It is the only way to both ensure that community members receive tickets, not scalpers, and solve problems of scarcity in the future.

I highly doubt if it is the only way to solve these problems. Besides, it would only take a year or two for scalpers to infiltrate the system anyway. All they have to do is send one representative to Burning man or to a regional for that matter, and then that "member" could start "sponsoring" other "members" until they had whatever numbers they wanted. I am assuming that under this democratic plan, every member would be entitled to a vote, so the scalpers would have a large voice in determining how ticket sales proceded in following years. Problem solved! (for the scalpers)

BBadger wrote:After what I've seen in this forum for the past 3-4 months, I'm in favor of an oligarchy. The will of the mob, especially with short-sighted panic, is not to be trusted.

Amen to that! Party/Event by consensus doesn't work. We tried it. It was a (fun, yet very stressful) debacle. There were only seven of us. Imagine the howl from 55000! You _need_ a boss. Doesn't have to be bad to be a boss though..LLC is as good as it gets, I reckon..They just need to sharpen their pencils a little and perhaps re-appraise what they want from BM in the years to come...

quadraspleen wrote:Party/Event by consensus doesn't work. We tried it. It was a (fun, yet very stressful) debacle.

(Note to self: quadraspleen has an interesting story to tell...)

I'd love to hear the story! My thing isn't that the org needs to go, or changed, or anything, I'm just talking about a ticket system. I'm assuming that whatever system BMorg comes up with will favor veteran burners over virgins. And I think that there are more veterans that want to go than there are tickets for. So, in some way, a good portion of vets won't get tix next year, and they'll be pissed off at the BMorg again. If everyone voted on a ticket system, you can only blame yourself.

moonrise wrote:I know my grammar sucks, but, uh, I think the OP out did me this time around (and forever).I cannot read that block of text. Can anyone else read it?

Yeah. I read it and I get what he's saying. But...

HookahGod wrote:The main problem facing any potential solution proposed for a ticket system next year is that no one knows how many people out there consider themselves "burners".

This is not the MAIN problem. The MAIN problem is that there are more people who want to go than there is space available.

Veterans are more important than virgins to burning man. There have to be some newbies, but the core population, if it has to be limited, should be of vets. So, in my eye, it's not that there's too many "people" that want to go, but too many veterans.

7chix&me wrote:

HookahGod wrote: It is the only way to both ensure that community members receive tickets, not scalpers, and solve problems of scarcity in the future.

I highly doubt if it is the only way to solve these problems. Besides, it would only take a year or two for scalpers to infiltrate the system anyway. All they have to do is send one representative to Burning man or to a regional for that matter, and then that "member" could start "sponsoring" other "members" until they had whatever numbers they wanted. I am assuming that under this democratic plan, every member would be entitled to a vote, so the scalpers would have a large voice in determining how ticket sales proceded in following years. Problem solved! (for the scalpers)

I don't know if sending someone to burning man would be profitable for scalpers to get on a list - they'd have to use a ticket they paid hundreds on, plus transport at least, even if they U-turned and went home. It is a lot of effort by a scalper - then they have to pay attention to when the vote is, and what's going on. All for a couple hundred bucks a year? I think it's a tougher system to deal with than any I've heard, what's your solution?

HookahGod wrote:I don't know if sending someone to burning man would be profitable for scalpers to get on a list - they'd have to use a ticket they paid hundreds on, plus transport at least, even if they U-turned and went home. It is a lot of effort by a scalper - then they have to pay attention to when the vote is, and what's going on. All for a couple hundred bucks a year? I think it's a tougher system to deal with than any I've heard, what's your solution?

Really? You think scalpers are only making a couple hundred bucks a year? If that's true then you are right! But I've seen tickets on scalping sites that are going for $1000 above face/Each! It would only be a one time effort if they wanted to get in, and then they refer two friends, and then they refer two friends, and then they refer two friends...As for the vet:virgin ratio, I agree you need a healthy population of vets to continue the cultural vibe. But as long as tickets are on the open market or in a Lottery type system The ratio will be determined by demand. If the demand for tickets is 40% virgins to 60% vets, that is probably how the ticket sales will shake out.Two solutions I've heard so far that seem to make the most sense--1. Sell tickets at burning man for the next years event. This would ensure that a healthy portion of the population of each years event was burners that had at least attended the previous years event. 2. Make tickets non-transferable, but fully refundable. No problem if plans change and you can't go. No temptation or even possibility to sell for a profit on CL or EB. And I know it happens that people have emergencies at the last minute and MAYBE BMORG would get a few last minute cancellations that they couldn't sell, but I don't think it would be enough to cause them a real problem, and I really don't think they would have trouble selling tickets even days before the event. Also, gifting would still be possible, but you would have to give it a little more forethought, because you'd have to provide a name when you purchased the ticket.

The bottom line is that as long as more people want to go that space available, someone gets to be disappointed. I don't think democracy will solve that problem. But it just chaps my ass that scalpers, whether professional or just opportunistic, will make a profit because of the already disappointing circumstance of scarcity. I say keep the tickets in the hands of people who actually intend to use them!