Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Azelf as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

The lead is good cuz Azelf hits 361 speed, has rocks, taunt and explosion (and maybe knock off, to get rid of nasty items). so you'll get rocks up, ideally prevent your opponent from setting anything himself and if you have time, you'll just blow yourself up. Very straightforward, and works.

The sweeper is a different story: Azelf has 75/70/70 defensive stats, which is not optimal for setting up. but even if it doesn't get the NP boost, LO with the insane coverage azelf has (Psychic/thunderbolt/fire blast/energy ball/shadow ball/dazzling gleam) makes it a very good set, especially since the base 115 speed with base 125 SpA are more than good compared to most LU offensive mons (and obviously mean enough power to somewhat threaten a number of defensive mons as well (Tangrowth, Milotic...)).

The best chance at a counter you have against this offensive monster (if its a sweeping variant) might be Meloetta, preferrably with AV. It just tanks everything Azelf throws at it, while Shadow Ball 2KOs Azelf. If its a lead set, I don't think it really has (or needs, for that matter) any counters, cuz all it does is set Rocks and blow itself up. Things like Accelgor can Encore it into using Rocks forever, but that isn't worth mentioning here. For that matter, I don't think Azelf itself or its removal from LU would have a great impact on the metagame, as the sweeper is checked by any scarfer (which most teams should have) or priority (Sucker Punchez, which many a team will also have). More defensive teams have their own options (Sdef Meloetta, Spiritomb, Pory2 (omnipresent check to everything in suspects) and (probably) more things I just can't think of atm).

In my opinion Azelf does a superb job as a lead, getting Rocks up almost always and also being able to stop opposing setters to some extent as well as deal a bit of damage. The sweeper can be very threatening late-game, but is quite frail and will, as such, have trouble with things that outspeed it (scarfers, cuz LU doesn't have lots of base 115 speed stuffz). I don't think anyone disagrees with me on that. The question, however, is if the above makes Azelf banworthy, and, to be frank, I am unsure about that (even tho Azelf is very good atm, that does not necessarily mean broken). So, I'll be looking forward to other people's opinion on Azelf.

EDIT: Okay, I did forget the screener. Works, sets screens. No idea bout CB (never seen it/used it). Ty for completing carl, but don't mention Slowking (its stupid cuz everyone will run something for the prime special wall in LU :V )

Er, I'll complete some stuff of Kark post:
There is a set very underated in the Choice Band with U-turn, Zen Headbutt, Knock off, Ice punch/trick who can make for all the special counters.

With its very good speed ( 115 is very good in LU) it has very little mon that can outspeed it ( accelgor is the only that comes to my mind) it can fulfill many roles:
- Suicide Leaed
- Dual Screener
- Special Sweeper
- Physical attacker

However, it does not mean it's not counterable, Spe Def Drapion can switch in on the predicted Nasty plot and kill it with Knock off, spiritomb can come on any set lacking Dazzling gleam and pursuit trap it, Slowking can take any non band or set lacking Energy Ball/Tbolt.
Some calcs

But here comes for me the main problem of Azelf, it has a so wide movepool it's hard for it to totaly adapt to the metagame, and will very often lack coverage move to hit its counters ( ie lacking energy ball, dazzling gleam, or not being CB)
I have no opinion on it being broken or not, however I know that its very versatile and that it's a top tier mon in LU

See, here's the thing about Azelf. Does it have a larger movepool than most? Yes. Does it actually need any of those secondary moves at all? No. A Dual Screen or the Lead Suicide type set aren't really broken. They are hinderances, but I wouldn't exactly call them at all broken. If I'm calling any set potentially "Broken", it's the mixed Azelf set.

This would probably be the set in question. Azelf has access to two of the biggest game changing moves in any Metagame in Generation 6: Knock Off and U-Turn. It also possess one of the fastest speeds in the LU tier where it used to have stiff competition from the likes of Sceptile, Aerodactyl, Speed ties with Starmie and Raikou, Mega Beedrill, have to deal with the defensive fortitude of Empoleon, Mega Pidgeot, etc. Slowly all those things it has had to deal with especially since Azelf itself left LU, has gone away. It's returned and now what do you have that can naturally outspeed it? Jolteon, Swellow, Noivern, Cinccino and Ambipom speed ties. Dugtrio outspeeds, but it's only way of hitting Azelf is Sucker Punch or Stone Edge. One of which can be worked around somewhat. If you use a Choice Scarf user, most likely it'll have to be a revenge kill attempt, as Azelf's base 125 Special Attack is no joke, and there aren't many Pokemon that would like to take a Psychic hit. I don't find there to be an entire need to run Psyshock, because there are very few things that will even bother with Psychic in the tier. First things that popped into my head were Porygon2, Jellicent, and Slowking.

That's a Defensive Jellicent. Give it SR support a bit, and it's not switching in to a combo like that. Even at minimum, 43% from Psychic + 12% from SR with 6% back from lefties puts you barely over the minimum you need for Knock Off to fully KO. You'd need them to get the lowest roll they could. And if you were to say invest more bulk into Sp.Def so Psychic would do less? Knock Off ends up doing more to you. It's kind of a lose lose.

Slowking will work to an extent, if you give it a hefty amount of Defensive EVs, and Azelf hasn't invested any of it's EVs into attack. But, that's just having to have almost fully Defensive or at least a large majority of EVs into Def for a Slowking set. It works, but Slowking taking even 2 Knock Offs and having to Regenerate out, might mean its gonna start to play with it's HP recovery ability.

Porygon2 entirely is dependent on it's defensive spread for Azelf. Basic example. Good thing about P2 is Thunder Wave and Recover for this type of situation, but again the omnipresent Knock Off exists, and it won't like potentially switching into that.

Post Knock Off, it becomes a game of Psychic or Psyshock depending what people want to run, against which spread P2 is. If eviolite is lost, it really hampers P2's ability to switch in any further at all.

Karkinos you bring up AV Meloetta, but I can't really call that one a check because:

It'll get utterly killed if it were to try and switch in by Knock Off. U-Turn is slightly weaker too, but it'll still do around 50% minimum if no Defensive EVs are on Meloetta. And it's a free switch to a different Pokemon.

I was discussing some things with NaCl about whether we should do a suspect on this, and as we were messing around with calculations, I came across a lot of LOL type of things, regarding Dark types and other certain Pokemon as being "checks" against Azelf. While it has a wide movepool, you literally don't even need to run Energy Ball or Thunderbolt (unless you run Psyshock and need E-Ball to hit Rhyperior), as an example. You don't even "need" Dazzling Gleam in the traditional sense.

If we go a standard Skutank, we get this, where it's pretty likely Fire Blast will get a 2HKO on Skuntank. This now turns into a 50/50. Sucker Punch vs Pursuit trapping. Choose Right, you'll kill Azelf. Choose Wrong, you have a 97% chance of losing your Skuntank. You kind of have to go all in on HP and Sp.Def with a +Sp.Def nature just to not be 2HKO'd by Fire Blast. Same logic is that if you come in on the NP, then a +2 Fire Blast against standard can OHKO you, and more than likely your team will get swept. Still have to choose correctly here (as well as actually carry Pursuit for this to work).

Ok...You basically need to either invest into Special Defense for almost whatever reason you might, taking away potentially from your speed and or attack stat or current HP I guess, to not be 2HKO'd by a non STAB. That or be Assault Vest Panda. Having Dazzle here would be safe just in case you ever run into AV Panda Bear, but people would rather hit as hard as they can with this thing as they can, which AV does leave a bit to be desired.

Dazzle Gleam is a safe ability to 2HKO without NP, OHKO with NP against Sp.Def Tomb. If you run physical Def Tomb, well Fire Blast 2hkos, and NP Fire Blast can OHKO guaranteed with Rocks up. Also, if you are like the Dread Plate/Blackglasses Tomb, it becomes another one of those 50/50s kind of, where predict right Tomb wins unharmed, predict wrong and you might take a hit or die.

Cool thing about BU Scarfty, it's the one surefire thing that Azelf has to run Dazzle Gleam for. Otherwise it's screwed and has to switch to a potential fairy or fighting partner. If Azelf does carry it though, it's screwed itself.

I could throw in stuff we don't need to see actual calculations for in that Zoroark, Sharpedo, and Shiftry all get owned by Fire Blast (Sharpedo is 2hko'd), as well as U-Turn / Dazzling Gleam would KO them all.

From this pretty much every Dark types has to Sucker Punch and Pursuit mind game Azelf into forcing it out usually. To a lesser extent, Houndoom could be used as a "check" to Azelf as it also has the Sucker Punch/Pursuit ability....but as opposed to other Dark types, it's not that good at all against many of the other threats in the tier.

Like I said before, most Choice Scarf users are going to be used for Revenge Killing it, most Dark types that will get mentioned will be playing a 50/50 game of Pursuit/Sucker Punch unless they predict Psychic or come in on Nasty Plot (IF it is Nasty Plot even), and can be very disappointed if they come into say U-Turn. That doesn't leave out that just unboosted Psychic alone, will place a huge dent in anything non Dark or Psychic, or incredibly fat themselves (and I mean P2 levels of FAT). Doesn't help the Psychic types will end up getting their backsides handed to them to Knock Off in most every case.

I figured I'd rectify what this suspect probably will mostly be about regarding Azelf as a whole. And, so far I haven't even bothered to bring up the Purely Physical set, let's be thankful that GF didn't give Azelf Swords Dance of all things, though some things might have to contend with Choice Banded Elf or PUP to give it a free +1 mostly, but leaves it pretty open for a turn. That, and there's a lot more physical walls to it, than to its special set.

I don't really see a very good reason to run knock off along with NP(as it's not slashed with anything on your set CP) as you'd just be better off using thunderbolt for fat waters and saving knock off for pure mixed sets. Psyshock hits absolutely nothing that Psychic does, if there's much variation in damage it'll be miniscule at best since things like Jellicent and vaporeon want to be physically defensive.

Plus I find slowking better running offensive sets right now.

Nitpicks and other mons aside, Azelf isn't going to see many pokemon successfully walling it. Since cp did all the calcs you can see how easily azelf blows holes into the opposition. Spiritomb can pressure it for a little while with sucker punch and pursuit, but is worn down very easily throughout a match. It's probably one of the almost foolproof answers to azelf in 1 on 1 situations too, since it can also Foul Play if it doesn't like sucker punch/pursuit mind games. Pokemon like Milotic and vaporeon can win against azelf that don't carry energy ball or thunderbolt, as can Slowking and they have(well with vappy semi-) reliable means of recovery.

Other than that, on the offensive side of the tier you have every decent sucker punch user being a firm check to Azelf. Sure, Emboar isn't going to be switching in unless azelf is forced to Fire Blast but it sure as shit takes out Azelf with its priority. Otherwise we do have the very omnipresent Doublade being able to do upwards of 50% with shadow sneak, but then it dies to LO Fire Blast, especially if it's knocked off by azelf or anything else. Something interesting to note as well is that espeon can trade hits with it very well, with shadow ball being able to kill most of the time after rocks and a round of LO recoil. Of course, psyshock+fire blast does come dangerously close to killing espeon as well, and if you've slipped up and allowed rocks then azelf can win that confrontation when espeon tries to switch in.

Haven't faced azelf a whole lot more to give a definite ban verdict personally, but it's extremely potent and will probably be crying for a ban as I get more experience using and facing it.

I don't really see a very good reason to run knock off along with NP(as it's not slashed with anything on your set CP) as you'd just be better off using thunderbolt for fat waters and saving knock off for pure mixed sets. Psyshock hits absolutely nothing that Psychic does, if there's much variation in damage it'll be miniscule at best since things like Jellicent and vaporeon want to be physically defensive.

Plus I find slowking better running offensive sets right now.

Nitpicks and other mons aside, Azelf isn't going to see many pokemon successfully walling it. Since cp did all the calcs you can see how easily azelf blows holes into the opposition. Spiritomb can pressure it for a little while with sucker punch and pursuit, but is worn down very easily throughout a match. It's probably one of the almost foolproof answers to azelf in 1 on 1 situations too, since it can also Foul Play if it doesn't like sucker punch/pursuit mind games. Pokemon like Milotic and vaporeon can win against azelf that don't carry energy ball or thunderbolt, as can Slowking and they have(well with vappy semi-) reliable means of recovery.

Other than that, on the offensive side of the tier you have every decent sucker punch user being a firm check to Azelf. Sure, Emboar isn't going to be switching in unless azelf is forced to Fire Blast but it sure as shit takes out Azelf with its priority. Otherwise we do have the very omnipresent Doublade being able to do upwards of 50% with shadow sneak, but then it dies to LO Fire Blast, especially if it's knocked off by azelf or anything else. Something interesting to note as well is that espeon can trade hits with it very well, with shadow ball being able to kill most of the time after rocks and a round of LO recoil. Of course, psyshock+fire blast does come dangerously close to killing espeon as well, and if you've slipped up and allowed rocks then azelf can win that confrontation when espeon tries to switch in.

Haven't faced azelf a whole lot more to give a definite ban verdict personally, but it's extremely potent and will probably be crying for a ban as I get more experience using and facing it.

Click to expand...

Well I could just slot/slash in Energy Ball on Knock Off's Level or something. Honestly, I find Knock Off even better as a 4th move even on a mostly special set. +2 Azelf with Psychic/Fire Blast as you can tell will pretty much guarantee you a sweep with having Rocks up unless they have Sucker Punch or Scarf users to work against you. Knock Off would let you hit some things that actually could take your +2 Psyshock/Psychic/Fire Blast like Meloetta, or if people bring in Slowking, also me to do a massive hit, and seeing as there is no reason they'd want to let Slowking die so easily because it has regenerator can net you a free Nasty Plot turn as they would switch. Energy Ball>Thunderbolt imo. Grants you access to hitting Rhyperior, Gastrodon, Seismitoad for huge damage without being boosted, and they have the same base power, so I think that would be a better run if all you want to do is be able to hit say the bulky Special Defensive waters. I just find Meloetta/Slowking to be more troublesome than Milotic or Vaporeon for my Azelf mostly, so to each his own I guess. But, definitely the 4th move is the decision maker for many teams. Since you can slot in Knock Off (most important imo), or Energy Ball (2nd most useful), or even Dazzling Gleam (3rd most important, but rises to most important if you think you will have Dark troubles).

For me it's just I'm basically trying to secure two possible win conditions easily pending the teams I face. If I see a Jellicent, Meloetta, P2, or Slowking, it's pretty useful to have Knock Off just to fully cripple them, as KO hits all 4 of them, where as with E-Ball, I'd be hitting Jellicent + Slowking, and not having a way to deal with P2 or Meloetta without support. If I don't see those, then I can NP and try to sweep and with the low ability of the tier to handle such powerful special hits, it's not to hard to secure a sweep once you've used Nasty Plot.

The toughest part for any Azelf really is fighting the fact that many of the Pokemon in LU can actually form a Scarf set, and it not be a limitation on the team. Nidoqueen, Flygon, Zoroark, Emboar (yes Jolly scarf actually outspeeds Azelf), Braviary, Magmortar (it's a cleaner set), "Durant" (probably it's weakest set currently imo), Heliolisk, Rotom-C, among a few others, are probably the more common Scarf users you'll find. All of these will also outspeed Azelf. The biggest problem is that every one of these will naturally be a revenge killer, because none of them wants to switch into Psychic/Shock, a potential Knock Off, or for some say Dazzling Gleam (looking at Flygon/Zoro). There is a useful priority user in Mega Banette that with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch can put the dead in Azelf is Dead, but he takes up a mega spot, and he'll really only force Azelf out once. Both Yanmega and Sharpedo have speed boost thus they can revenge kill as well, but seeing as Protect is a must have for those to work, it's also a free turn for Azelf to switch.

As for naturally faster threats. Jolteon and Noivern have moves that can 100% KO Azelf.

Life Orb sets are basically dual suicides potentially. They won't want to switch in, but they don't mind being revenge killers. However, both have the same problem with Swellow, Ambipom, and Cinccino on a regular basis, and that's Azelf actually partners decently with Registeel, Steelix, Bronzong, and to a lesser degree P2/Seismitoad as bulky types that will take the lower hits for it, and force them to switch out or something. They also can set up SR (not P2 though) for Azelf to go into easier beast mode, as well some of them can spread status too. There are actually a few better SR setting partners for it, but these are the usable ones for tanking hits that may at one point after a death allow Azelf back onto the field.

At this point, I'm not fully sure how I feel about Azelf, but if there's one thing I know for sure, it would be that it is pretty damn ridiculous to play against with no real sure fire way to fight it in most cases without potentially facing a shutdown to your team entirely.

I just find knock off+NP sets trying to do too much at once. I like the idea behind it but a straight special attacking azelf would benefit better as it can knock off first then come back in later and/or get a u-turn off on one of the psychics you mentioned later after it fires its STAB. Of course with 125 attack anything that's not defensive Slowking and is weak to it is going to be feeling that damage.

For me its more so that Azelf is so god damn great at hitting and running. It's got the incredible move pool for it and it's natural power makes it a nightmare to create an answer for it. Its not even about being unpredictable; unlike most pokemon with the move U-turn weakens/softens up a lot of otherwise legitimate checks and counters since other psychic types are among the best answers. That and psychic/psyshock+Fire Blast hitting so much by itself, Azelf gets a lot of wiggle room in its special move sets. I wouldn't really call them "mixed" since knock off and u-turn, while they can hit things hard, are auxiliary moves just boosted by those natural offensive stats. NP azelf has so much power behind it that anything short of extremely fat waters or P2 is going to die, but that vulnerable turn of set up is why I prefer straight attacking sets. Just gets in its damage and retreats before anything not scarfed or sucker punch/pursuit "mind gaming" can react.

Plus offense finds it easy to fit members like Jolteon onto the team for "easy" momentum. Slower teams are what really suffer against azelf because of the scarcity of pivots that can take advantage of it and the fact that walls just have the potential of getting knocked off while switching in. You either need to be faster(preferably with a resist on predicted moves lol) or just be really fucking bulky to think of coming in on an azelf.

I think Azelf needs to go. It's combination of high attacking stats, excellent speed tier and an amazing move pool makes it just so damn good. It can run a variety of sets, including LO Nasty Plot sweeper, Dual Screen lead, Taunt/SR Sash lead and even Banded sets; all of which perform incredibly well in LU. But the most potent set would be this one:

This set is incredibly threatening to offensive and defensive teams alike; 125 spA stat further boosted by Nasty Plot hits everything like a truck, and along with its 115 base speed it can potentially dismantle the whole tier. Psychic/Psyshock for obligatory STAB, Fire Blast to hit Steel-types, the last move is just filler as Energy Ball hits stuff like SpDef Rhyperior harder, whereas Dazzling gleam ensures that you OHKO Pangoro, even AV variants.

With access to U-Turn and Knock Off along with unmatched 115 base speed, Azelf can run a very potent Choiced set. U-Turn is amzing for grabbing momentum, and does a good chunk to everything not a steel type, Knock Off is for utility. Fire Punch is for Registeel mostly, although Knock Off does a decent amount to it anyway and it loses it's leftovers in the process. Zen Headbutt is for STAB, and coming from 125 atk stat backed up by Choice Band, it does massive damage to everything that doesn't resist it. The aim of this set is to spam U-Turn and knock Off, and nothing works better than Azelf as a hit-and-run attacker.

Mixed Azelf set with 2 SpA+ Knock off/U -Turn isn't bad either and deals with Meloetta better, but I think the NP set is really hard to stop if it gets going. As the only things outspeeding Azelf in the tier are Noivern, Jolteon and Dugtrio; and none of them can take a hit from Azelf so the best bet is to revenge kill it.
All in all I think Azelf should leave the tier, as there is almost nothing that beats it reliably and it has it's way past all of its so-called checks. So yeah, ban please.

Hey people of the almighty CULT OF LU. I am your Cult Leader, Cult Overlord, and Cult Advisor, Celestial Phantom, here to bring to you the daily word of LU. After some brief discussion among some people, namely Cult Diplomat Aurist, and Cult Head of Saltiness NaCl, it has been decided that Azelf will be Excommunicated (banned) from the Cult of LU tier.

Azelf has a wide variety of roles that contribute to teams in LU. It's an almighty Suicide (EXPLOSION) lead, that even a gen after the BOOM nerf, Explosion with or without Normal Gem is still pretty hard to deal with from a base 125 attack stat will at least nuke something, and has access to one of the strongest fire moves that would hurt the potential "switch-ins" of Steel types or Ghost types. Other variety of sets include being fully capable of running a Physical, Special, or Mixed set with the offensive stats to back it, as well as a wide array of moves to deal with the multiple Pokemon types in LU (though it only needs to actually cover a small few overall). Not to mention that it gets access to the best two momentum moves in the game (Knock Off and U-Turn) supporting any non boosting set. Add in that it has speed that matches up against most of the top threats, but at a stronger damage rate than most of them, and it's very tough to stop late game, when it can blast through many targets that are low on HP. Long story short, best way to kill it generally is run something generally really fat (talking Porygon2 or Mega Audino levels generally, Registeel can suffice too, but it doesn't have much in the way of reliable recovery, and it needs full HP to take 2 Fire Blasts.), either that or having one of the good scarf users to generally revenge kill it. Which in itself means that you will likely have to make a sacrifice for this to happen, if you don't want a maimed Scarf user that likely can die. It's feeling for the best that Azelf be banned for the sake of creating a more healthy metagame for all the Followers of the Cult of LU.

The change will happen, whenever it does on the server. So, look forward to it.