Beamer wrote on Aug 18, 2012, 13:56:Or is it because they're born into such poverty and such a culture where change is impossible because, by the time they're old enough to even realize a change is needed, it's already too late?

This is unfortunate and happens too much -- even in this country. With an attitude where you hear words like "impossible" and "too late" that guarantees change won't happen. That's probably the majority attitude in that type of environment.

A minority percentage of that population will make it out of there to live very successful and healthy lives. Every once in while you'll see a news story about those successes. Why not recognize those positives? It is possible to make a change for the better, even in the most dire circumstances.

Dude, my sister teaches in an impoverished neighborhood. She's been to the homes of these students. They apartment buildings have bullet holes in the doors, used condoms in the stairwells, beer cans in the hallways. The parents are absentee and just don't care. Absolutely no one is telling these children that an education is important. The teachers are ignored when the parents don't reinforce what they say. The kids repeat a grade a few times then just stop showing up around 12 or 13. Sometimes courts can force them back, but then they'll stop at 16. No one ever told them they have a chance. No one ever told them education matters.

By the time they realize it's a mistake, if they ever do, they're so far beyond any kind of hope. You can't, at 25, decide that you'll get a GED and go to a college that matters enough to change anything. And, by and large, these people have no support structure that even makes them think things are possible for them.

So, special events that single them out in particular can help educate them that they actually do have hope. But you seem to think those events are awful. We shouldn't have support conferences, no, because that's whining.

Beamer wrote on Aug 18, 2012, 13:56:Or is it because they're born into such poverty and such a culture where change is impossible because, by the time they're old enough to even realize a change is needed, it's already too late?

This is unfortunate and happens too much -- even in this country. With an attitude where you hear words like "impossible" and "too late" that guarantees change won't happen. That's probably the majority attitude in that type of environment.

A minority percentage of that population will make it out of there to live very successful and healthy lives. Every once in while you'll see a news story about those successes. Why not recognize those positives? It is possible to make a change for the better, even in the most dire circumstances.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:So you're not saying that you "make[e] good decisions and surround[ed] yourself with friends and family that have a positive impact on your life."

That doesn't mean I was born into it. I made my life what it is today.

Again, it's wonderful you had the opportunity to do that. Not everyone does. Not everyone has the opportunity to make their life anything.

It's kind of sad that you don't realize that even the ability to change your life implies an advantage many don't have. Why are most inner street kids in Newark, NJ amounting to little? Is it because they're lazy? Is it because they don't have the desire to change? Or is it because they're born into such poverty and such a culture where change is impossible because, by the time they're old enough to even realize a change is needed, it's already too late?

Bhruic wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 16:45:Sure, if the other side weren't fighting back, maybe resting on one's laurels would work. But when you've got various religious groups out preaching about the evils of homosexuality, you have to keep your message alive, or you'll end up losing ground.

Please check out the second comment (by someone that goes by 'blyan') from the original article. It's clear that even in the gay community there are different opinions on the effectiveness / 'appropriateness' of an event like this. That post sums up my most important point and blyan did it much better than I could. Sorry for the rambling -- like I said in an earlier post -- brevity is not one of my strengths.

I've grown tired of this thread and have no interest in fighting with you guys about this. We've all shared our opinion on the matter and I hope we can each respect each other's opinions going forward. The Blue's News folks are a great bunch of people - of every demographic. Go play some games and think twice before you call someone a 'fag' or 'gay'.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:35:I never said the organizers and participants were sitting around whining.

Which leaves me wondering why you brought up people sitting around whining in the first place?

Just take the political spin (which was indicated in the article) out of it. Hopefully a minority attendee who previously felt hopeless can get a positive out of it -- make new friends, etc.

I just re-read the article, and can't find any "political spin" in it - can you point out what you saw?

Of course, but I'd wager that 99% of the attendees already consider homosexuality normal. Agree? Disagree?

Attendees? Most likely. People who hear/read about it? Definitely not.

Well if the majority of young people support it, not much else needs to be said. The next generation is taken care of -- they'll pass it on to their children.

Sure, if the other side weren't fighting back, maybe resting on one's laurels would work. But when you've got various religious groups out preaching about the evils of homosexuality, you have to keep your message alive, or you'll end up losing ground.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:So you're not saying that you "make[e] good decisions and surround[ed] yourself with friends and family that have a positive impact on your life."

That doesn't mean I was born into it. I made my life what it is today.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:any time someone comments on a point you make you retract a bit

I haven't retracted -- only clarified.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:the original article really has very little political in it.

You're right. There's very little politcal content in it. That content is the only part I don't like.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:I mean, the whole point of GaymerCon is a place for people to play and not constantly be told that being gay is a bad thing

I know. Perhaps some developers will be influenced by this event and provide more end user controls so they can determine who they do and do not communicate with?

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:49:This offends you, and you've been absolutely rambling in your definition of why. It appears even you don't understand why. Clearly not because you're a bigot, though you're wholly unable to articulate why this bothers you enough to make dozens of posts.

I'm not offended, and I'll admit that brevity has not always been one of my strong points. I do understand, and the reason for so many posts is:

1) People keep replying and giving me reasons to reply back2) I'm persistent. If I believe in something I will not stand down. It's my persistence that's brought me to where I am in life. Not the place I was born into, but the place I wanted to be and have achieved.

Beamer wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:27:And aren't you fortunate to have been born into an environment that allows this, despite your claims of understanding what life is like for a poor minority?

I never said I was born into that type of environment. Why do you assume that? It was actually a very abusive environment. Again, you don't know me well enough to make that claim.

So you're not saying that you "make[e] good decisions and surround[ed] yourself with friends and family that have a positive impact on your life."

Do you even have a point? You came out fists flying, but any time someone comments on a point you make you retract a bit, or call them wrong, or say "I don't hate them, I just dislike that they make it political" even though the original article really has very little political in it.

I mean, the whole point of GaymerCon is a place for people to play and not constantly be told that being gay is a bad thing (try even playing CounterStrike without hearing/seeing someone call someone else a "fag" or saying that the AWP is "gay.")

This offends you, and you've been absolutely rambling in your definition of why. It appears even you don't understand why. Clearly not because you're a bigot, though you're wholly unable to articulate why this bothers you enough to make dozens of posts.

Bhruic wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:00:Where are you getting this idea that anyone involved in this group - the creators or the participants - is sitting around whining about how life is so hard and unfair. Rather, it seems like what they are doing is attempting to be pro-active about it, and ensure that they have an event that they can enjoy without the negativity they get in other aspects of their life.

I never said the organizers and participants were sitting around whining. They are doing the right thing. Just take the political spin (which was indicated in the article) out of it. Hopefully a minority attendee who previously felt hopeless can get a positive out of it -- make new friends, etc.

Bhruic wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:00:No, it's not going to change the mind of your "backwoods, redneck" but it's not supposed to.

Then remove the politcal aspect of it. It's useless.

Bhruic wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:00:The more exposure that people have to something, the more "normal" it becomse.

Of course, but I'd wager that 99% of the attendees already consider homosexuality normal. Agree? Disagree?

Bhruic wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 15:00:Young people rather overwhelming supports homosexuals for that very reason. It's not about this generation, it's about the next.

Well if the majority of young people support it, not much else needs to be said. The next generation is taken care of -- they'll pass it on to their children.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 13:36:It's about supporting the gay community rather than bunch of closed minded people.

I thought you said it was also about creating awareness? That's what I was talking about.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 13:36:You don't know what it feels like, so don't even DARE try to talk about it.

Or what?

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 13:36:There are many ways to build a support system. What is your problem? It's not affecting you?

You're right -- it's not affecting me. There's no problem here. I just presented my take on the matter. You don't have to agree with me.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 13:36:Speaking from LIFE experience. You have a different one obviously?

Everyone has a different life experience -- obviously. So, in the interest of opening one's ears and listening, use this web site as a resource. There's lots of links to click on and topics to read that make it clear that not everyone who enjoys games fits the old school gamer stereotype. You said earlier that it's not easy to spot a gay gamer? It's not easy to spot a gamer period. Just like it's not easy to spot someone who is gay.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 13:36:What does this have to do with gaymercon?

It was a conclusion to me describing the positive relationships I've experienced with minority-classed people. In this case, homosexuals. It's about making good decisions and surrounding yourself with friends and family that have a positive impact on your life.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:Why does it work? Because no one sits around and whines about how life is so hard and unfair.

Where are you getting this idea that anyone involved in this group - the creators or the participants - is sitting around whining about how life is so hard and unfair. Rather, it seems like what they are doing is attempting to be pro-active about it, and ensure that they have an event that they can enjoy without the negativity they get in other aspects of their life.

I also think you are underestimating the effect that events like this can have. No, it's not going to change the mind of your "backwoods, redneck", but it's not supposed to. The more exposure that people have to something, the more "normal" it becomse. Young people rather overwhelming supports homosexuals for that very reason. It's not about this generation, it's about the next.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:what demographic will have their opinions changed for the better as a result of this and other homosexual events?

It's about supporting the gay community rather than bunch of closed minded people.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:Married men enjoying the occasional bit on the side with a fellow man for example, "don't tell my wife" is their battle cry.

While you really don't need to inform me of how homosexuals and bisexuals live their lives (like I said -- I'm well aware), this one stands out. It's very disrespectful to one's wife to sneak around and cheat. It completely goes against the vows that the man and the woman agreed to. It's morally reprehensible and I despise any social movement that encourages it.[/quotes]No social movement encourages cheating. It's more sad than disrespectful, it's sad that someone feels they have to hide who they are to fit into this world. You don't know what it feels like, so don't even DARE try to talk about it. Cheating is never okay.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:You have not been clear at all about your experience with "discrimination". In fact you are becoming extremely vague in your posts.

See post #117. How much detail do you want? My point is that I have experienced the emotional trauma that results from discrimination. Logically I can't say that I truly understand what a homosexual goes through, but I do know that any kind of emotional turmoil is a horrible, horrible thing. You don't need to hold a convention to build a support system -- I think others should do it on an individual level and get better results. Am I expecting too much?

There are many ways to build a support system. What is your problem? It's not affecting you?

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:When you create an event that promotes equal rights that is not complaining.

I never said they were complaining. I said a key part of their agenda is ineffective.

Read the tone of your own posts, including this previous one.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:Gamers really don't get out much and lets face it. Gamers aren't exactly the most willing people to go out and socialize at the best of times.

I was really surprised when you said this, given your apparent open-mindedness. This is an ancient stereotype. These days gamers have successful careers, a successful social life, and even get laid on a regular basis. For almost two decades I've had my own social network of gamer friends and we all party, have successful jobs, get laid, get married, participate in sports, etc. I find it hard to believe that this isn't the case for the majority of gamers these days -- read through the Blue's News posts and you'll see many references to activities outside of gaming (unless Blue's News users are a bunch of liars).

Speaking from LIFE experience. You have a different one obviously?

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:Creating a safe haven in which homosexuals can play games without fear of discrimination is the best part of GaymerCon.

Glad you agree that and so it shall be.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:Why does it work? Because no one sits around and whines about how life is so hard and unfair. We choose to enjoy life by making good decisions and moving ahead no matter what the past has brought us. Carpe Diem, Baby!

What does this have to do with gaymercon?

D-Rock wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 12:13:As a side note, I noticed in my original post that I typed majority instead of minority in one sentence. I've corrected that mistake -- hopefully that didn't influence your opinion but if it did...reread.

Please, enough with the bashing. All I'm doing is sharing my personal experiences and observations and the opinions I've formed as a result. I'm allowed to speak about those things as much as you are and your condescending tone is completely unnecessary. I don't respond to you that way and I expect the same level of respect.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:By your own admission you don't get it, so why don't you start listening? It's to create awareness. It's to correct misinformation.

Me asking what their agenda is not an admission of 'not getting it' -- it's rhetorical. Perhaps I should have asked 'what do they think they are going to accomplish'? In my opinion, not much, and that's what I've been trying to say all along. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear.

I'm well aware of the fact that they are trying to create awareness. I don't condemn them for that and as I've already said, I celebrate and encourage that. I just think they are going to be disappointed in the effectiveness of the politcal and social aspect of their agenda. I don't expect you to agree with me on that -- that's certainly not the popular opinion.

We (society) do get it -- we've known about homosexuals and their desired rights for decades now and have had the opportunity to form our opinions on it. Do you really think the backwoods, redneck citizens are going to suddenly start accepting homosexuality? OK, maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but please, tell me -- what demographic will have their opinions changed for the better as a result of this and other homosexual events?

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:Married men enjoying the occasional bit on the side with a fellow man for example, "don't tell my wife" is their battle cry.

While you really don't need to inform me of how homosexuals and bisexuals live their lives (like I said -- I'm well aware), this one stands out. It's very disrespectful to one's wife to sneak around and cheat. It completely goes against the vows that the man and the woman agreed to. It's morally reprehensible and I despise any social movement that encourages it.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:You have not been clear at all about your experience with "discrimination". In fact you are becoming extremely vague in your posts.

See post #117. How much detail do you want? My point is that I have experienced the emotional trauma that results from discrimination. Logically I can't say that I truly understand what a homosexual goes through, but I do know that any kind of emotional turmoil is a horrible, horrible thing. You don't need to hold a convention to build a support system -- I think others should do it on an individual level and get better results. Am I expecting too much?

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:When you create an event that promotes equal rights that is not complaining.

I never said they were complaining. I said a key part of their agenda is ineffective.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:But on the other side you have a social responsibility to give back by becoming more and contributing to the world to make it a better place.

I'm not sure what your point is with this statement and I don't see how it ties in with what immediately followed it. No one in this country (world?) should be required to be socially responsible -- it should be a choice. Otherwise, it's just forcing a belief on someone. While unfortunate, if someone wants to sit on their fat ass all day long and collect wellfare and watch TV then they should have the right to do that. No, I don't repect that lifestyle but who are we to take that choice away from them if it doesn't infringe upon someone else's rights?

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:You can't go through life with your head down, side stepping issues. Pretending everything is fine. We have come a long way, we have a long way to go as well.

Sure you can, and everyone should have the right to do so if they choose. I don't like that mentality and I'm pretty sure you don't either. Just ignore those types of people and get on with your life.

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:Gamers really don't get out much and lets face it. Gamers aren't exactly the most willing people to go out and socialize at the best of times.

I was really surprised when you said this, given your apparent open-mindedness. This is an ancient stereotype. These days gamers have successful careers, a successful social life, and even get laid on a regular basis. For almost two decades I've had my own social network of gamer friends and we all party, have successful jobs, get laid, get married, participate in sports, etc. I find it hard to believe that this isn't the case for the majority of gamers these days -- read through the Blue's News posts and you'll see many references to activities outside of gaming (unless Blue's News users are a bunch of liars).

netnerd85 wrote on Aug 17, 2012, 00:17:When you do live in a society where being gay is frowned upon by many religious groups and ignorant people. Having a safe haven to go where everyone in the room is perfectly OKAY with you being who you are is a huge relief and you will NEVER understand that relief until you understand the level of discrimination we are talking about here.

Don't assume to know what I understand. Obviously I don't understand what it's like to be homosexual and the negative social aspects that come with it, but if you generalize the concept stated above I do understand. Are you going to condemn me because I haven't had that exact life experience, or can you be open-minded and accept the fact that I have had enough negative emotional experiences to relate to it. I'm relating to it in the best possible way I can, using what life has handed to me. Do you want me to just quit trying?

Creating a safe haven in which homosexuals can play games without fear of discrimination is the best part of GaymerCon. The political statement that they are trying to make is a waste of time in my opinion.

Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I see condescention in that statement. Enough already.

I have just as many gay friends as straight friends. I work side by side with them. They respect me, and I respect them. We hang out after work. We go out on the town, grab a bite to eat, attend sporting events, grab a beer together, etc. Imagine that -- a network of friends that's a mix of homo and hetero, getting along together and respecting each other. Heck -- I enjoy hanging out with some of my homosexual friends more than I enjoy hanging out with some of my hetero friends.

Why does it work? Because no one sits around and whines about how life is so hard and unfair. We choose to enjoy life by making good decisions and moving ahead no matter what the past has brought us. Carpe Diem, Baby!

As a side note, I noticed in my original post that I typed majority instead of minority in one sentence. I've corrected that mistake -- hopefully that didn't influence your opinion but if it did...reread.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 16, 2012, 16:17:What is their agenda anyway? Sure, have a convention with nothing but homosexual gamers so you can game safely, but at the end of the day you go home and the homophobic trash-talkers are still there. My opinion is that singling themselves out is a waste of time -- but to each his/her own.

By your own admission you don't get it, so why don't you start listening? It's to create awareness. It's to correct misinformation. There are plenty of misinformed people in the world. Some people think that being gay is a choice. Some people don't realise how many gay/lesbian and bisexual people there are - let alone how many people don't call themselves that, yet they still practice same-sex "activities". Married men enjoying the occasional bit on the side with a fellow man for example, "don't tell my wife" is their battle cry.

D-Rock wrote on Aug 16, 2012, 16:17:See my previous post so you can understand my experience with discrimination. I'm not sure if 'get over it and move on' is the best choice of words, but if you want to accomplish dreams and goals in life you pretty much have to do that when you encounter obstacles. If you decide to stop when you hit one of those obstacles and just sit around and complain that it's not fair, that's your choice.

You have not been clear at all about your experience with "discrimination". In fact you are becoming extremely vague in your posts. When you create an event that promotes equal rights that is not complaining.

On one side yes, life isn't fair and you have to battle through it and get on with the job. But on the other side you have a social responsibility to give back by becoming more and contributing to the world to make it a better place. For instance, if people didn't do that. I and others would still be beaten and put into prison for who we are. If those that came before us didn't stand up and say "give us equal rights" then myself and hundreds of millions of other peoples lives would be far less enjoyable.

You can't go through life with your head down, side stepping issues. Pretending everything is fine. We have come a long way, we have a long way to go as well.

GaymerCon will provide a place for young and old gamers that are homosexual to meet up. It's not very easy to spot a gay gamer. Why is it important? Have you heard of love? Gamers really don't get out much and lets face it. Gamers aren't exactly the most willing people to go out and socialize at the best of times. I'm extremely lucky to have found someone who shares the same interest as me. Playing COOP games is great for a relationship.

When you do live in a society where being gay is frowned upon by many religious groups and ignorant people. Having a safe haven to go where everyone in the room is perfectly OKAY with you being who you are is a huge relief and you will NEVER understand that relief until you understand the level of discrimination we are talking about here.

And this conversation is more or less over. You clearly have no idea what being a non-straight-white-male is in this country.

Call me the next time an authority figure is being slandered as being like you (muslim, black, gay, whatever.)

And I don't have you personally figured out, but you are a straight white male, are you not? You, by definition, have not experienced what a non straight white male has. Stop saying "I've figured you out." I haven't. But straight white males do not have the same experiences and have not been set back in the same ways. You're missing the boat here by such a wide margin.

Beamer wrote on Aug 16, 2012, 15:35:Actually, I do know it didn't happen every waking moment of your life. No white male in America has experienced more than a few moments of what it's like to be a woman or a minority. It's entirely impossible.

Wow...seriously? Please, back those words up. Who actually does experience discrimination 'every waking moment of their life'? How do you know all about my life?

Beamer wrote on Aug 16, 2012, 15:35:Yes, you were ridiculed and called names for being a minority, but what happened if you walked into the nearby Walgreen's? What happened when you applied for a job? What were the expectations for your life? Who where your role models?

Do you really want to know the answers to those questions or are you trying to make a point? Based on what you said in the first part of your post you've already figured out exactly who I am.

Beamer wrote on Aug 16, 2012, 15:35:This is all the major things you're missing while focusing instead on the minor issues like "no one looked like me."

Your words - not mine. I never said it had anything to do with how I look versus how anyone else looks - it runs much deeper than that. Please -- stop telling me about how I feel -- you can't read my mind.

You sound bitter on this topic and I'm curious -- do you fall into a minority category? What are your personal experiences with discrimination? Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to share privately -- I can and will respect that.