A Question. . . Who has changed their mind on the subject of abortion?

My pets are both sentient and cognizant by definition. I sometimes think they are even self-aware but that is probably my imagination. Dolphins and
whales are probably self-aware to some extent because they will sometimes commit suicide when a mate dies which shows some degree of depression or
higher awareness. There are some studies and those that argue for plant sentience which I don't have an opinion on though I am aware of the ongoing
debate.

Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of
sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is
the burden of proof needed for it to change.

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak
for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so
it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks
later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with
issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of
sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is
the burden of proof needed for it to change.

At what point in a embryo/fetus and/or child's life cycle are you reasonable sure that they become sentient/cognizant?

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak
for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so
it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks
later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with
issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

I'd certainly agree with that. A morning after pill should be standard with any woman that comes in claiming she was raped. Whether or not she can
confirm/remember any penetration.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of
sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is
the burden of proof needed for it to change.

At what point in a embryo/fetus and/or child's life cycle are you reasonable sure that they become sentient/cognizant?

Fetus's react to stimuli and sounds just like most animals. Once again, the point being it's a huge grey area. Which is the crux of the whole debate.

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak
for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so
it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks
later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with
issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

Takes so long to accept it that there's a fetal heart beat and a belly bump?

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first?

Here we go again with that. I have had this exact "debate" with others on this forum. You can look back in my posting history if you want to see my
response to that. I'm not interested in rehashing it right now.

Suffice to say that I find it curious that I continue to get told to kill myself by "pro-lifers".

At this point, I am forced to conclude that the vast majority of "pro-lifers" are actually religious people whose entire "pro-life" stance is based
upon mindless adherence to their religion (Which they are required to in order to stay in the cult). You cannot make a rational argument in favor of
overpopulation and irresponsible breeding. Therefore, I'd appreciate it if you'd just say "abortion is against my religion" and not try to waste my
time trying to talk sense into someone who believes nonsense.

In addition to that, voluntary euthanasia is (effectively) against the law. Anyone who wants to die has to resort to trying to make it happen by
sneaking around in the shadows and hoping no one "saves" them in time to make them a well-preserved vegetable.

If someone tries to "remove themself" and they survive, they will effectively be arrested and incarcerated and forced to promise not to try it again.
At which point, they will probably be harassed for the rest of their life for that and constantly reminded of it.

So, if you really think pro-abortion people should off themselves, maybe you should be in favor of legalizing voluntary euthanasia for everyone? If
your argument really is that a humanoid slug cannot make it's own choice whether or not to be born, what is your argument against voluntary euthanasia
for adults who can make their own decisions?

I think stating someones religious beliefs is very beneficial to the argument, as you've pointed out.

For clarification, to my personal posts, I'm non religious. I don't believe in any god or any religion. I know others that are non religious as well
that share similar views as far as abortion. It's valuable info in trying to chart the discussion.

I find the issue of "body autonomy" hard to grsp. Abortion is a purely ethical issue. If the potential for viability exists, then it should be
respected. Am I not morally obligated to pull a drowning man from the water, even if I risk my own well being? The exception being my own certain
death. For example, I am not morally obligate to dive into lava to try to save someone from a valcano. Even if he would surely die without my help?
I've been hearing a lot of the argument, "a seed is not a tree." Because it has the potential be become a tree, one must treat it like one. Similary,
if it were illegal to kill trees, I would suggest it unethical to waste a seed.
Those that feel otherwise simply dont respect the potential for something greater than their own immediate gratification.

My mind has changed and if anything I have even become more Pro-Choice as I have gotten older which is the opposite of most folks who become more
conservative as they age out of having to deal with the issue personally.

Would I have had an abortion? It would have depended on the circumstances. Medically necessary? Yes. Rape? Yes. Because I made a poor decision?
Probably not but I can't say 100%.

I think it's ugly, but nature is ugly too and spontaneous abortions happen as miscarriages. Some birth defects are so serious that carrying the child
to term is going to result in the same outcome. It's looking like some of these laws will basically be black and white. No abortions of any kind for
any reason. Then it'll edge into the mother's behavior while carrying the fetus. It's a slippery slope and none of it places any responsibility on the
male who helped make the baby.

I think this whole thing is turning out to be a revenge thing now that the conservatives have the upper hand. I don't think most of these politicians
give a flying duck personally because quite a few have really questionable morals, it's about control and punishment of "sinners".

A lot of people are quoting Personal Responsibility but you can not force some people to be responsible. Outlawing something has never stopped
irresponsible people from doing things, they just find ways around it that are worse. In this case more unwanted children are going to suffer being
abused or neglected. My own mother told me she would have rather been aborted than to live through her miserable childhood with a violent alcoholic
father who abused the family. It was daily terror.

I also think it's ironic that the people who scream about "my tax dollars!" going to fund welfare families are OK with more mouths to feed because
that's exactly what's going to happen. You want government up in your personal business this way then they'll be up in your wallet too. You can't have
it both ways.

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