I want to start this out by saying that, as many of you know, I oppose state sanction of same sex marriage. That said I have this question what was really accomplished by the church taking such a leading role in prop 8 and has the Church lost it willingness to carry on this fight?

I have heard the argument made that California was some sort of bell weather state and if same sex marriage were not stopped there it would spread to other states that would follow it lead. Unfortunately this seems not to be the case. In the United States each of the states have equal legal weight so it matters not if it is California or Vermont which acts. So by making a stand in one state while turning a blind eye in others the effect is that same sex marriage moves forward.

In the last week same sex marriage laws were approved in three states in the U.S. and have been introduced federally in Australia. In each case I have read of no action by the Church in regards to these actions. In one case, the state of Washington, the actions were taken in a western state with a significant LDS population.

One can only assume from this that the Church has lost it will to fight on this issue. For even in succeeding with prop 8 it is now clear that we did not stop, or even slow down the movement towards same sex marriage and in the process only exposed the church to unwanted attention and accelerated the issue in the courts.

If same sex marriage required the church to act in California then it should compel the Church to act, even in some small way, in other states and liberal democracies where the issue is also raised. If it is a deeply moral issue in California then so too is it deeply moral issue in Washington state, New Jersey or Maryland. By not speaking out in these other states and nations the Church appears at best to be hypocritical on the matter and at worst as having lost it will to fight for what it claims to believe so strongly in that it was willing to invest so much time and effort in California.

In any event it seems clear now that Prop 8 has done nothing to either slow or stop the same sex marriage issue either in the U.S. or abroad. It also seems likely that no matter what the courts decide about Prop 8 California will get same sex marriage if by no other means than by a new referendum. Given the recent inaction by the Church on the matter elsewhere I would not look for the Church to ever again mount the same sort of effort should such a matter come to the voters of California in the future.

So we have to ask ourselves just what was accomplished by our taking such a leading role in Prop 8? Did we somehow stop the issue of same sex marriage from moving forward? The events of the last few weeks would suggest not. The legislatures of other states and nations seem to care not a whit as to what happens in California. Has anything of any worth been accomplished in this whole matter? If so just what would it be and if so why has the Church lost it willingness to take a stand on this issues in other venues?

Last edited by gkearney on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Supporters of Proposition 8, the California initiative banning marriage equality, which was declared unconstitutional by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals yesterday, plan to take their fight directly to the Supreme Court, if their reaction to yesterday’s ruling is accurate.

In a statement by Andy Pugno, general counsel for ProtectMarriage.com, the official proponents of Prop 8 (and failed Republican state Assembly candidate), he says that the Ninth District will not have the last word on the initiative.

It’s no surprise that the 9th Circuit’s decision is completely out of step with every other federal appellate and Supreme Court decision in American history on the subject of marriage. Ever since the beginning of this case, we’ve known that the battle to preserve traditional marriage will ultimately be won or lost not here, but rather in the U.S. Supreme Court.

We will immediately appeal this misguided decision that disregards the will of more than 7 million Californians who voted to restore marriage as the unique union of only a man and woman. We are confident that the rights of California voters will finally win out.

Prop 8 supporters had two options: to call for an en banc ruling of an 11-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit, or to appeal directly to the Supreme Court. While there is no explicit statement here that ProtectMarriage.com will opt for the latter, it appears that, with the trashing of the Ninth Circuit and the vow that ultimately the Supreme Court will decide, that they will forego the en banc panel.

This accelerates the time frame for an ultimate ruling on the issue. If ProtectMarriage.com does appeal to the Supreme Court, they would likely get a hearing at the beginning of the next session. So we could expect a ruling sometime in 2013, and no later than June of that year. I suppose they could fast-track it and fit in a ruling this year, but I don’t think that is likely.

In the statement, Pugno took swipes at the “Hollywood elite” for sponsoring the lawsuit, as well as Judge Vaughn Walker for failing “to disclose his own long-term homosexual relationship while presiding over a case seeking the legalization of same-sex marriage.” The Ninth Circuit found no merit in that claim by the Prop 8 proponents.

“Our path to the U.S. Supreme Court is now very clear,” Pugno concludes. That’s where this lawsuit was always headed, anyway, so we might as well get on with it. Importantly, however, the ruling in the Ninth Circuit was so narrowly crafted that even a Supreme Court opinion will not settle the issue of marriage equality for the whole country. Concurrent lawsuits against the constitutionality of DOMA will probably go further to settle that question.

The Church did the right thing to take a stand for traditional marriage. I have questioned if we were unequally yoked to this piece of legislation though. Did it not make it law that marriage was between ONE man and ONE woman? What if God in the near future were to reveal that polygamy is back? Judging from the lack of righteous males to females it would not surprise me, especially with the NWO types using programs to get people to stop having kids.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."Plato

The way it was explained to me (I don't remember who explained it) the church supported Prop 8, because it was worded to outlaw same sex marriage. The church did not "fight against" the other state laws, which were worried to legalize same sex marriage. In other words, they support bills that represented their position on the issue, but they did not fight against bills that opposed their position.

How about this: Due to the church's involvement in the prop8 issue, those members who were wavering and on the edge of giving into the worldly view that homosexuality is ok (at least ok enough to give them societal recognition) were given enough light whereby to choose light or darkness. There can be nothing more important than that.

And I can add to that: it personally softened my heart to see prop8 passed. I have had a darkening disgust of people in this generation, wishing that the Lord would let the judgements come upon them. prop8 proved to me that there are still many people worth fighting for. It accomplished that for me, and I greatly appreciate it.

For even in succeeding with prop 8 it is now clear that we did not stop, or even slow down the movement towards same sex marriage and in the process only...accelerated the issue in the courts.

We are on the fast track towards destruction as a nation....

"Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know...What weather they shall have is not ours to rule."

Fiannan wrote:The Church did the right thing to take a stand for traditional marriage. I have questioned if we were unequally yoked to this piece of legislation though. Did it not make it law that marriage was between ONE man and ONE woman? What if God in the near future were to reveal that polygamy is back? Judging from the lack of righteous males to females it would not surprise me, especially with the NWO types using programs to get people to stop having kids.

IMHO, the church needs to do do more to combat abortion - 4,000 babies are murdered in this nation every day and the church says and does nothing about it. Which is worse and will bring upon a nation God's wrath - aborting/murdering 4,000 babies a day or gays marrying?

"Truth is in history, but history is not the truth." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Col. Flagg, I agree with you 100%. Here's a bran new story. This REALLY chaps my hide because I'm pregnant with baby #6 and would NEVER consider an abortion (murder), yet alone murder after the baby is born? I can't believe people are even considering that. Horrifying!!!!!!! http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethicis ... t-persons/

The law: Do all you have agreed to do; do not encroach on other people or their property.Fundamental Right: something that everyone can simultaneously claim without forcing others to serve their needs.

Strawberry wrote:Col. Flagg, I agree with you 100%. Here's a bran new story. This REALLY chaps my hide because I'm pregnant with baby #6 and would NEVER consider an abortion (murder), yet alone murder after the baby is born? I can't believe people are even considering that. Horrifying!!!!!!! http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethicis ... t-persons/

Strawberry, congratulations on your pregnancy! I gotta tell you - given the fact that this country murders/aborts 4,000 babies a day and has done so every day since 1973 (on average), it is a MIRACLE this nation still stands, especially given the atrocities that our own government has been involved in over the last 50 years or so and the incredible moral decline of the American people to the point where iniquity runs rampant like it's the norm.

"Truth is in history, but history is not the truth." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Fiannan wrote:The Church did the right thing to take a stand for traditional marriage. I have questioned if we were unequally yoked to this piece of legislation though. Did it not make it law that marriage was between ONE man and ONE woman? What if God in the near future were to reveal that polygamy is back? Judging from the lack of righteous males to females it would not surprise me, especially with the NWO types using programs to get people to stop having kids.

IMHO, the church needs to do do more to combat abortion - 4,000 babies are murdered in this nation every day and the church says and does nothing about it. Which is worse and will bring upon a nation God's wrath - aborting/murdering 4,000 babies a day or gays marrying?

and we stick a pretty solid line. no sex, its evil, and homosexuals are an abomination against god and will burn in the lungs of hell

regrettably, if we had have taught our children " sex is wonderful gift from god, and he wants us to really enjoy it in the confines of the comfort, security and joy of a married relationship" and also another document "as christians we believe god instituted marriage as between one man and one woman for joy, sexual fulfilment and raising children- where possible".

okay., we now have the latter since 1995 Proclamation. But the first part is coming slowly

in the meantime, the rainbow brigade see us as the embodiment of all that has "oppressed" them and made them feel alienated, suicidal (god hates fags) and marginalised. sadly, the aggressive pom pom brigade has fought back, and targeted LDS, and one thing has led to another, and a few good ol boys take it upon themselves to save society sand our children by seeking to stop legislation going through that lets these utterly irrelevant parts of our society have their moment in the sun.

the church is coming around and acknowledging that god HAS built them in a way where their wires are crossed and thus they have SSA. this is a massive step.

what we are saying is NO sex, unless married. thus not stopping marriage threatens that message, hence why members stepped in to oppose it

the other thing is message taught to children. lets be clear, these guys have a militant lobby who wont stop at this. next WILL be the adoption, then the equal representation in schools, ra ra.

so a battleground had to start somewhere.

abortion, well, the genie is out of the bottle, how does the church put it back in? how do members put it back in?

i agree the church official mouthpiece doesn't seem to stand for much anymore, or against much. we can't really say we have a prophet like noah, or isiaih, or Jonah who cries repentance, to the world

the cop out about the tweaking tail or beast is in my opinion just that

we have a million quotes telling us thats crap and we should not be compelled to stand and fighti guess that between them and god

in the meantime, we know what we all need to do, if we want to throw out hat in that battle.

if i were a god id rather people NOT be told "ooooh you have to go fight this", as in US imperial militaristic false wars for blood and satan and profit.

id rather they connect the dots themselves. then i could really count them as something special, rather than little sheep who need a master to tell them what to do all the time

i wonder what "these i will make my great ones" did?

did they sit around and say "i'll wait until commanded", or did they go and do?

lets not forget that guy and girl in germany eh. executed and excommunicated. their posthumous resuscitation was irrelevant. i am sure the angels welcomed them the moment they arrived

Fiannan wrote:The Church did the right thing to take a stand for traditional marriage...

IMHO, the church needs to do do more to combat abortion - 4,000 babies are murdered in this nation every day and the church says and does nothing about it. Which is worse and will bring upon a nation God's wrath - aborting/murdering 4,000 babies a day or gays marrying?

Still...Most people aren't harassing you or your kids regarding these topics like they are where gay marriage has been legalized...

Children have the right to not be taught homosexuality in school. Yet, in places where gay marriage has been enacted, these rights have been infringed upon. Here are a few examples where those with homosexual preferences have pushed their assumed rights, which infringed on the rights of others...

*Freshmen were told not to tell their parents about a pro-gay seminar & were required to sign a confidentiality agreement (Derrfield, Illinois Mar. 2007).*In March, 2007, a Massachusetts high school banned parents from attending a seminar for students on how they can know they are homosexual.*In October, 2008, First graders (6 year-old students) were taken on a field trip to watch their lesbian teacher's wedding.*In Oct 2008, a Hayward CA public elementary school celebrated "Coming Out Day."

Normalizing & even encouraging children to explore homosexuality obviously causes more to experiment with homosexuality."The Legal Liability Associated with Homosexuality Education in Schools... This report is part of an integrated strategy to inform and educate parents, students and school officials across the nation of its contents and of their respective rights and duties. It has documented the concern that the health of students in many schools across the country may have been compromised and their First Amendment rights may have been denied."http://www.afamichigan.org/images/Legal ... 200504.pdf

Also, others' rights have been infringed upon in favor of supporting gay rights.*In April 2008, an Albuquerque photographer was fined over $6,000 for refusing to be hired to photograph a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony.*In May, 2008, a black administrator was fired from the U of Toledo, Ohio, for writing an editorial objecting to the comparison of black discrimination to same-sex marriage.*An intolerant opponent of Proposition 8 even violently attacked & injured a Proposition supporter in Oct. 2008.*On November 19, 2008, eHarmony, a Christian-based matching service was forced by New Jersey's Division on Civil Rights to provide website matching services for homosexuals.

Evidence shows having homosexual preferences IS a choice, more linked to environmental influences than to biology. Statistics show that not only do those with homosexual preferences change partners more often & get STDs & AIDS more often than heterosexuals, anal sex even in 2 healthy males involves risks of infection, anal fissures, colon rupture & anal cancer. Homosexuality is becoming peer pressure to accept, when it's full of lies.

LDSFreedomForum.com does not necessarily agree with all content on this forum. This is not an official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.The views and content on this site reflect only the opinions and teachings of the authors of the respective content contained herein.