Balance of Power

Discuss the Questions

Here are the questions our panel faced this week. Tell us what your answer would be or what you think our panellists need to say.

RISK AVERSE POLITICIANSDONNA BYRNE asked: When I first voted there were federal politicians like Bob Hawke and Malcolm Fraser, and in Queensland Joh Bljeke Petersen and Tom Burns - you might not have liked them but they told you what they thought, they made mistakes and we all moved on. Now politicians have image consultants, media training, speech writers, media advisors and chiefs of staff. Now they are so worried about making a mistake that they wonít even have a genuine leaderís debate. How are we going to get real people to represent and tell to us what they really think when most of our politicians come through the party system and are so risk averse?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

WORKING POORRICK JOSEPH asked: I applaud the drive for jobs and growth, but what will be done to help the working poor of this country? Families are struggling from pay cheque to pay cheque with ever increasing prices for electricity, food, rent. The decision to feed your family or attend to medical issues is a constant battle, let alone striving to save enough to have a house of their own. Put yourself in the shoes of these people and actually think - what it is like to have a single constant thought in your mind ďhow am I going to make ends meetĒ, not just from the moment you wake up, but during the night because you canít sleep because you are sick with worry. Please stop and actually think what that might feel like. What are you doing to fix this?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

PENALTY RATES Ė CHEFDavid Carter asked: I've worked as a chef for over 17 years. The Productivity Commission recommended a cut in Sunday penalty rates for people like me in the hospitality industry, but hospitality workers are some of the lowest paid workers in Australia. Steve Ciobo: Why are Sundays more important for those who work in other industries than those who work in hospitality? I give up my weekends to serve others too!Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

PENALTIES COST JOBSRYAN WEBB asked: A recent study by Restaurant and Catering Australia has found that unifying penalty rates across Saturday and Sundayís could create 40,000 across new jobs in Australia, with almost 9,000 right here in Queensland. With youth unemployment at 13.5% nationally and peaking at well over 20% in regional areas, itís clear that double-time rates on Sundays are locking tens of thousands of young Australians out of the workforce.If weíre serious about creating jobs and opportunity, wouldnít ending Sunday penalty rates be a great place to start?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

PUT MINOR PARTIES LAST?HARRY SPICER asked: My question is for all the cross benchers. Given that you put a gun to the Gillard governments head which resulted in horrendous policy outcomes for Australia, and given that you've now spent the last 3 years being openly hostile to any reform in the senate, as well as regularly being patently unreasonable in negotiations, arguably holding our very democracy to your self interest, why should Australians ever consider putting you above dead last on their ballot papers?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

GREENS & PREFERENCE DEALSHANNAH TAYLOR asked: There has been ongoing discussion of preference deals between the Liberals and the Greens in a mutual attempt to undercut Labor seats. Wouldn't any such preference deal, whether formal or informal, be a complete betrayal of the values of both of your parties?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

TRICKLE DOWN TAX CUTS?NATHAN SCHOLZ asked: Steven Ciobo: My wife and I own a small business, a coffee shop here in Brisbane. The proposed corporate tax cut means we will get an extra $8 a week next year. Given it means everyone in this room, including potential customers, will have to pay more for them and their families to go to the GP, couldn't we cut out the middle man? You keep the $8 and protect bulk billing so my customers will have more money to spend in my shop?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

QUEENSLAND GHOST TOWNSKRISTY HARLING asked: I have lived in Central Queensland which encompasses towns such as Emerald, Blackwater & Moranbah for a number of years, working in the local mining industry. Today, we see the aftermath of the mining boom after 21,000 jobs have been lost in the region. It breaks my heart, to see local families struggling to put food on the table & to see hundreds of houses empty because of foreclosure with no one to fill them. The people of Central Queensland need help now, and are suffering due to a lack of transition planning for the region. With all of this talk of ďjobs and growthĒ, what are your plans for the next industry in Central Queensland, to ensure it is not left littered with ghost towns?Tell us what you think on the Q&A Facebook page

TONY JONES: Good evening and welcome to Q&A. We're live at the Brisbane Powerhouse. I'm Tony Jones and answering your questions tonight: Labor member for Griffith Terri Butler; the leader of the Greens, Richard Di Natale; Independent Senator for South Australia Nick Xenophon; the Minister for Trade, Steve Ciobo; and Independent Senator for Tasmania Jacqui Lambie. Please welcome our panel.

(APPLAUSE)

TONY JONES: Thank you. And, as usual, you can watch Q&A live across Australia on ABC TV, News 24 or you can listen on News Radio. We're also streaming Q&A live on Facebook and we hope we've ironed out some of the wrinkles from last week. So go to our Facebook page to watch, comment or ask a question and we go straight to our first audience question right now. It's from Donna Byrne.

RISK AVERSE POLITICIANS

DONNA BYRNE: When I first voted, there were federal politicians like Bob Hawke and Malcolm Fraser, and in Queensland, we had politicians like Sir Joh and Tom Burns. You might not have liked them but they told you what they thought. They made mistakes and we all moved on. Now, we have politicians who have media advisers, image advisers, people to tell them what to wear. I'm just wondering how we're going to get politicians who truly represent us when we can't even get a genuine leaders' debate because people seem so very worried about telling us what they really think, and they're very risk averse. How do you suggest that we get leaders who are true people?

NICK XENOPHON: Can I say, I think Australians have got a pretty good bulldust detector and they haven't lost that. I saw the leaders' debate last night and, like, I forced myself to watch the whole thing. It seems as though six times as many people watched a cooking show, a singing show and a home reno show than the debate and if only they used autocues last night it would have been more animated. It was just terrible. People were doing things off by rote. I think we deserve better than that and I think that Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten are capable of something better, but it seems everyone is so neatly packaged and homogenised, that lets down the country. So, you're right and I think - I think the solution is that we need - we need a democracy that is much more dynamic and we need more of these meetings and politicians being less cloistered and cocooned from the real world.

TONY JONES: Nick, just a quick follow-up. Now, what was it about that debate last night? The format was stultifying. I mean, we could certainly say that but is that the sort of thing that risk averse campaign strategists actually want: fewer people watching?

NICK XENOPHON: I think they do and itís being completely disengaged and I found it...

TONY JONES: Well, come on, we've been doing town halls all up and down Australia. I don't think we're risk averse. I donít think our campaign strategies are risk averse.

NICK XENOPHON: No, but that debate was just completely - it just disengaged and disconnected people. It was a disgrace and I think Australians deserve better.

TONY JONES: Jacqui Lambie?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Well, I think we know that Jacqui Lambie can't be scripted. Thatís been quite clear. Itís always a bonus. Yeah, and you're right. You know, they need to tell it how it is and they need lead by example and if you can't do that off the cuff, then you probably shouldn't be there and you know what I have made mistakes. They make mistakes. They don't admit it. I do. That's human. We're all human and we do make mistakes and I didn't want latch night's debate. I went to a PCYC. I got raffled off for $2,500. So that raised money for them. So I was very grateful for - to be doing that. But I think like a mate of mine said today "Well, I was yawning within about 10 minutes and I was snoring within about 15." So I think that gave me the rundown of last night.

TONY JONES: Steve Ciobo?

STEVE CIOBO: Look, I'm not - I'm not that pessimistic. The reality is I think youíve got to be careful that the grass doesn't always seem greener. I mean, Iíd look at, for example, the US. Someone like Donald Trump. You would hardly call him someone who's micromanaged to within an inch of his life. Is that sort of more of the kind of debate we'd like to see? I guess one of the privileges you have with being a member of Parliament is Iíve sat through a lot of debates in the Parliament itself, and a lot of those debates are terrific. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's some poor-quality ones but there's a lot of really good quality debates where even beyond the substance, just the level of engagement, is really positive. And, frankly, you know, look, this is a Parliament that's served up Jacqui Lambie. It's a Parliament that served up Clive Palmer.

JACQUI LAMBIE: Thank God for that. Not for that bit.

STEVE CIOBO: That served up...

JACQUI LAMBIE: Not for that bit.

STEVE CIOBO: That served up Nick. I mean, weíve got a pretty good mix of people in the Parliament and you can sort of question the style that was adopted with respect to the debate but I've got to say I still believe fundamentally that the Parliament is a good cross-section of the Australian population.

TONY JONES: Just on the debate, why did the commercials refuse to run it? They obviously thought - they could see something coming?

STEVE CIOBO: I guess they don't think that, you know, a couple of politicians debating is as sexy as My Kitchen Rules.

TONY JONES: Terri?

TERRI BUTLER: Well, I mean, I'm not image managed. I bought this shirt at an op shop in my electorate and I think that sometimes people think that there's more management going on of images than there actually is. I know that Bill Shorten is perfectly authentic. I have known him for a while. and what you see is what you get with him. Last night's debate wasn't entertaining, but do you really want entertainment from your leadership or do you want people to articulate what they think (indistinct)...

TONY JONES: Well, let's actually go back to our questioner.

TERRI BUTLER: Well, hang on. Do you want entertainment from a debate or do you want serious?

TONY JONES: But, no, you asked a question, Terri.

TERRI BUTLER: And it was rhetorical, Tony, and everyone else got a go. Do you really want seriousness...

TONY JONES: Yeah, but youíve had a go. I'm just going to go - Iím just going to go, Terri...

TERRI BUTLER: ...or do you really want entertainment...

TONY JONES: Terri...

TERRI BUTLER: ...and thatís really the question.

TONY JONES: Iím going to go back to our questioner. Youíve listened to plenty of the politicians here. What's your view about what you actually wanted from that debate?

DONNA BYRNE: I think you just want people to - if there are things that aren't palatable, you want people to tell you. You don't want it sugar coated and I just feel like they're so busy fighting each other that they've lost focus on the people that they're supposed to represent.

TONY JONES: Okay, Terri, you can continue now.

TERRI BUTLER: Well, there is a fight on. There absolutely is a fight on. You've got a fight between us. We want to fund schools. We want to fund hospitals. We've got a plan to save Australian jobs, like the 70,000 Australian jobs that depend on the Great Barrier Reef, for example. And on the other hand you've got the Liberals, who want to give $50 billion away in tax cuts to foreign investors and corporations and that's the fight and it's a serious one because it's going to affect the future of the country. So, yes, thereís a fight. Absolutely there's a fight. Because what we're actually arguing about is the future of the nation, and the future of the planet for our kids and for our grandkids and I don't make any apology for the fact that Iím going to go out and fight really strongly against what I think is some pretty rotten ideas from Steve's mob.

TONY JONES: Richard Di Natale?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, the debate was a snooze-fest, wasn't it? You know, it's an hour of our life we won't get back and...

JACQUI LAMBIE: Did you actually stay awake for the whole lot?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, I drifted off towards the end. If there was a winner, it was Masterchef, I reckon. Look, the problem with the debate was every single thing that was said was scripted to within an inch of its life. You could see the sort of focus groups coming out in each of the answers and I think you're right, people just want politicians who are going to say what they believe and what they think and they're not getting that at the moment. I mean Malcolm Turnbull is a case in point. The reason the Liberals are in such trouble at the moment is this is a man who clearly is hamstrung by his party and can't actually say what he thinks. He canít tell you what thinks. And I heard someone say the other day that he looked tired and I reckon hypocrisy is really tiring. I think it can really take it out of you when you have to be very careful about every single syllable that comes out of your mouth because you're worried that you're going to offend the backers who put you into the Parliament, not because they agreed with your policies but because they thought you were more popular and the reason he was popular was because he had views, he expressed them, and now what we're getting is this sort of stage-managed approach from him and I have to say it's something that's pervasive in politics more generally. You have this professional class of politicians who spend their time in student politics, they go and work for a politician, they end up being elected, and what you don't get is people who bring in some life experience, who've got a strong set of convictions, and who tell what you they think and we need more of that.

TONY JONES: Okay. We have got a Twitter question. Itís from Robert OíKeefe. Why are Turnbull and Shorten allowed to hide in debates from Richard Di Natale? That's obviously for you. It's not even a question.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, look, we would've really enjoyed the opportunity to put our vision to the Australian people and the reason they don't want us there is they're the Coles and Woolies of politics. Youíve got the Labor and Liberal Party, you know, a bit of friendly competition from the outside. Nothing brings the old parties closer together than a bit of friendly competition from the outside. And could you imagine, and we had this debate around who could be tougher on, you know, just innocent people seeking asylum in this country. People who were fleeing persecution, who were coming here, and the whole debate was who could treat them more harshly, who could brutalise them more. Why not have another perspective there that says "There is a different way of dealing with this issue."

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Nick Xenophon?

NICK XENOPHON: Well, it is a duopoly and, in my home state I believe in bringing people together. I just didn't really realise there was the Liberal and Labor Parties in the last few weeks in terms of South Australia. So I think, you know, it is a pretty close...

TONY JONES: You mean you're bringing them together to try to stop you is what you mean?

NICK XENOPHON: Exactly.

TONY JONES: All right.

NICK XENOPHON: And, at least I brought them together. So I think the issue is that it is tough to break through. It's tough to break through into a Lower House seat, for instance, but I'm hoping we can in South Australia.

TONY JONES: All right, weíll come back to that in a minute. Steve Ciobo, I'm sure you want to respond to the Coles and Woolies jibe.

STEVE CIOBO: Sure.

TONY JONES: And the various comments made about Malcolm Turnbull.

STEVE CIOBO: Just because, I mean, I actually that Richard and Nick's attitude is really arrogant, to be blunt. It's an attitude that says, you know...

NICK XENOPHON: Seriously?

STEVE CIOBO: Yeah, I do. I think itís really arrogant because it's an attitude that says to the vast majority of Australians who find a common set of values and principles with the major parties: you're basically, the two of you, are sitting there saying you're not that smart, you're getting caught up in the hype and the marketing.

NICK XENOPHON: Weíre not saying that.

STEVE CIOBO: And you actually need to realise that thereís more to politics than what the two majors represent. I will tell you why the two majors are the two majors. It's because we share values and we share a policy platform that most Australians identify with. Richard, most Australians don't identify with Greensí policies. They're not in favour of legalising drugs.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Thatís just wrong. Thatís just wrong.

STEVE CIOBO: They're not in favour of opening up our borders...

TERRI BUTLER: You have one member of the House of Representatives. Thereís 150 members.

STEVE CIOBO: ...to bring in as many people as possible from overseas.

TERRI BUTLER: Less than 1%.

STEVE CIOBO: They actually want strong border sovereignty. They want strong border protection. And that's the reason why they will support the Labor Party or the Liberal Party in stronger numbers than they will your party. And, mate, you can sit there and be arrogant about it and say, well, that's because they're just not that smart but, I mean, the reality is, mate, the reason they get behind the majors is because of those common values.

TONY JONES: All right, you get a quick response to that.

RICHARD DI NATALE: (Indistinct)

TONY JONES: Yes, and then weíll move on.

RICHARD DI NATALE: You just need to look at whatís happening to the major party vote. It's been shrinking election after election after election and we're having - I'm sure the issue will come up at some point tonight, the question of multiparty government. That will be a regular feature of Australian politics because the growth of the Greens and independents continues with each election, because people are sick and tired of the old parties and let me tell you, the main issue with breaking through is we don't have people who go into a polling booth and say "I'm voting for the Greens or for Nick Xenophon because my grandfather did it and my mother did it and that's who I am." That identity politics is breaking down. You just need to look at the vote amongst young people. If there was a vote amongst people who are under 30 in Australia, there'd possibly be a Greens Prime Minister. And our time is coming and the reason it is is because nothing brings you closer together than the threat from outside. And rather than suggesting that standing for an election is arrogant, what we are doing is weíre giving people a choice and they so desperately want a choice right now.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right.

TERRI BUTLER: Richard, you weren't at the debate because you - you were not at the debate because you are not vying to become the Prime Minister. You are not at the debate because you do not have the capacity to become the Prime Minister after this federal election. There's a choice.

AUDIENCE: Oh!

TERRI BUTLER: He's in the Senate for a start and he's got one member of the House of Representatives out of 150 and that's why you weren't at the debate and people have got a serious choice to make here, a choice between two people, one of whom is going to lead this nation; a choice between a government that's going to make big cuts to services and hand over money to foreign investors and big corporations, and someone else who's actually got capacity to do real work to save the reef. Someone whoís got capacity to fund that UNHCR.

TONY JONES: I think by the way just - we have to move on but I will make one point and that is that John Gorton was in the Senate and came down and became Prime Minister.

RICHARD DI NATALE: That's right.

TONY JONES: Letís move on.

TERRI BUTLER: Well, he had more than one member of the House of Representatives, Tony.

RICHARD DI NATALE: (Indistinct) can I respond.

TONY JONES: Letís move on. No, you canít. We'll come back to you because weíve got plenty of questions on that subject. Weíve got a question from Rick Joseph.

WORKING POOR

RICK JOSEPH: I guess my question is for the whole panel. I applaud the drive for jobs and growth but what will be done to help the working poor of this country? Families are struggling from pay cheque to pay cheque with ever increasing prices for electricity, food and rent. The decision to feed your family or attend to medical issues is a constant battle, let alone striving to have a house of your own one day. Put yourself in the shoes of these people and actually think how am I - actually think what it's like to have a single constant thought in your mind: how am I going to make ends meet? Not just from moment you wake up but during the night because you can't sleep because you're sick with worry. Please stop and actually think what that might feel like. What are you doing to fix this?

TONY JONES: Jacqui Lambie, I will start with you.

JACQUI LAMBIE: Well, I won't use the jobs and growth mantra because I'm overdone with that but Iíll tell you what, itís called learning, earning or serving. So you are either learning. So why aren't we encouraging our young people to go and learn and do two years and uncap associate degrees in this country and give them the first two years of their degree for free, okay? If theyíre - why aren't we looking at national service so these guys can go and do 12 months. So if you've been on the dole for 12 months and you are physically and psychologically able, then you are going in to serve if you are not learning or earning, okay? And we will look after, they will look after your dental, your medical, they will also give you a trade before you come out and then after 12 months, if you want to, you can sign on for another three years or, if youíre in that high top bracket, we'll give you an apprenticeship. Because I can tell you what, right now our apprenticeships theyíre going wayside and that's another issue we have. We don't have jobs and we don't have jobs being presented to this country. We have over a million 457s out there and that's another reason why we donít have jobs here. So there are - there are some really major issues here. Another one is our electricity costs, okay? Our electricity costs are massive but no-one is looking at nuclear power. No-one is looking at a gas reserve policy in this country and that's what we need to be talking about

TONY JONES: Steve Ciobo?

STEVE CIOBO: Well, look, I - there is actually a core focus that we have in relation to the whole mantra. People say, well, we're sick of hearing about jobs and growth. Well, we're not sick of talking about it because we actually think that jobs and growth is actually whatís going to drive this Australian economy forward and going to ensure that we have jobs for people in the future. One of the things that we focused on obviously coming into the last election was our decision to abolish the carbon tax. The reason being because the people who are most heavily penalised were the ones who had least disposable income to spend on things like, for example, electricity. That's the reason why we took that decision to remove it, we kept the carbon tax compensation in place to try to make it easier for them. But, fundamentally, what it comes down to is whether or not you can make sure that you are providing the incentives to those that take risk, that create employment, that invest their money to try to create wealth so that they, in turn, can provide employment opportunities for others and if it was as simple as just saying, well, you know, instead of getting a bulldozer to dig a hole, we're going to get a thousand people out there with teaspoons, then that would be a solution but it's not that simple. You actually need the economy to work, you need the growth and that's why it's absolutely crucial that there's an economic plan for this country, because at the moment, the rest of the world is struggling with a lot of economic headwinds but Australia, with 3% growth, has the highest rate of growth out of any G7 country and three times the rate of job creation, which provides a better future for those who are looking for work.

TONY JONES: Nick Xenophon?

NICK XENOPHON: I'm sitting next to the Trade Minister and heís a decent bloke but I think that what we're doing to sign up on the TPP will be a big mistake. If we're interested about our national sovereignty in terms of jobs, then we should have a Buy Australian First policy when it comes to the $659 billion a year that the Commonwealth spends on procurement. Why should we be exporting jobs overseas to the extent that we are? The own analysis - government's own analysis says that in terms of the China, the Japan and Korea free trade agreements, that imports - that exports to those countries will go up .5%.

TONY JONES: Nick, Iím going to get you to question the address specifically.

NICK XENOPHON: Yeah.

TONY JONES: Because that was really a question about the growing divide in Australia, as that person sees it, between haves and have nots.

NICK XENOPHON: Yeah, there is absolutely.

TONY JONES: Okay.

NICK XENOPHON: And thereís a growing divide because we have policies in place that I think will weaken our economy that we should be spending government monies on local procurement, on local jobs and in terms of the growing divide, the fact that there are pensioners in this country that can't afford heating, that there are families who just simply cannot get by on week to week indicates a gross failure of our policy and I think one of the things we need to do is to get away from this free trade mantra that I think is actually making our economy weaker, not stronger.

STEVE CIOBO: So you think less trade is better?

NICK XENOPHON: Well, if you look at your own figures...

STEVE CIOBO: So you think itís better to have less trade?

NICK XENOPHON: If you look at your own figures, our foreign debt...

STEVE CIOBO: To have protectionist walls.

NICK XENOPHON: No, not protectionist walls. Our foreign debt is approaching $1 trillion, which is extraordinary. Last year is was 74 billion.

STEVE CIOBO: Well, mainly because of the Labor Party.

NICK XENOPHON: Oh, itís all the Labor Party's fault? Well, last year it was 74 billion.

STEVE CIOBO: Mostly it is the Labor Partyís fault.

TONY JONES: Okay. Iím not going to let this side bar argument interrupt the flow. Can I hear from Terri?

TERRI BUTLER: Certainly. I mean, I worked at a start-up firm some time ago and pretty much everyone there was living week to week - me too at time, putting myself through uni - and it went under. And the last week they didn't pay anyone's wages and what actually forced them to pay us was the fact that we worked together, and held them to account. And ultimately I think what's happening in this country is people are getting weaker and weaker and jobs are getting less and less secure. And that's something that I think is a real problem. You know, Jacqui talks about 457 visa workers. I'm worried about the number of 457 visa workers in this country and Iím worried about the lack of security that they have. Because the fact that they are easily exploited means that they are quite weak and that that drives down conditions for everyone else. I'm worried about the fact that the Productivity Commission, in the Liberals' review of the IR laws, didn't seem to think that the fact that we've had so many independent contractors setting up in the last 15 years and having no security was a problem. I'm worried about the fact that they don't think that casualisation of labour, of people just not knowing whether theyíre still going to have a job is a problem. I think most of us would have had people in our family who have been made redundant from a job or have been - I was made redundant from that job - been made redundant themselves. I think weíve all seen what's happening in work places across this country. Even in government workplaces, where thereís government - you know, there's 100,000 or more government employees who don't have an agreement because Malcolm Turnbull's been unable to sign off on agreements. The fact is, job insecurity is a major problem in this country. The way we deal with it is not through xenophobia, it's not through trying to lock out the world. But it's also not through saying weíve just got to have completely laissez faire, free, open slather for everyone. We actually need strong workplace relations laws and we need to have a strong economy and that also doesn't mean just let it leave it to the market. I don't support that at all. That's why, for example, I mentioned before there's 70,000 jobs that depend on the Great Barrier Reef. That's why we can have strong pro-environment policies, stronger pro-environment laws and better jobs and more secure jobs into the future.

TONY JONES: Okay. Richard Di Natale?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, itís a great question and itís something we just don't talk enough b this growing inequality in Australian society. One of the reasons I got into this job, I spent a couple of years working in the Northern Territory in Aboriginal health in a medical clinic, and it was an experience that made me realise if you're going to do something about people's health, you have got to start with the circumstances in which people live. And we live in a country where there are 2. 5 million people living below the poverty line, 600,000 of them kids. And yet, we don't, when someone can't find a job, we commit them to poverty because Newstart is way too low. We need to increase Newstart. We put big barriers in front of people to be able to access health care. We have got increasing out-of-pocket costs for people going to see a doctor, a GP. We have got the government that wants to freeze Medicare rebates, taking money out of hospitals. Education, you've got, again, kids who are born in an area of disadvantage. You know automatically thatís going to impact on the educational opportunities, which is why we need to fund Gonski. We have so much work to do in Australia to address that growing gap between the rich and ordinary people and we've got a government that wants to give $50 billion in tax cuts and just hope that magically that money will flow through to people who are vulnerable. It doesn't work like that. It's a failed ideology. We can be much better. We have got to end those unfair tax breaks. There are so many of them - negative gearing, superannuation, multinational tax avoidance - and let's start funding Medicare, funding Newstart, investing in schools, investing in TAFE. They're the sort of things that are the foundations of a decent society.

TONY JONES: Can I quickly go back to our questioner, Rick Joseph. Rick, listening around the panel, a variety of different suggestions and ideas, what are you thinking?

RICK JOSEPH: Oh, look for me I come from, I guess, a Housing Commission background and I'm trying to break that cycle with my family. You know, trying to give my son the education that he deserves. You know, you guys forced me to look at alternative education sources because, you know, the public system just doesn't give him what he needs. You force me to spend, you know, three hours in traffic getting to work every day because the infrastructure that should be there just isn't there. You force to me to pay more for rent every week than I need to because housing affordability is just terrible. You force my wife not to work as much as she should because, you know, child care is too expensive. I'm trying to, you know, break that cycle but there's just blocks everywhere.

TERRI BUTLER: That's right.

RICK JOSEPH: You know, why can't you guys just do something about that?

TERRI BUTLER: And thatís why we want...

TONY JONES: Okay.

TERRI BUTLER: That's why we want to do it. That's why we're running. That's why I'm running, because I want to be part of a government that's got a positive plan for all of those things.

TONY JONES: I'm going to take that as a comment because weíve got so many questions. Itís a very passionate comment and I think it's quite a good place to leave that subject. Weíll move onto the next question. Itís from David Carter.

PENALTY RATES Ė CHEF

DAVID CARTER: I have worked as a chef for over 17 years. The Productivity Commission recommended a cut in Sunday penalty rates to people like me in the hospitality industry. But hospitality workers are already some of the lowest paid workers in Australia. Steve Ciobo, why are Sundays more important to people who work in other industries but not so important for people like me in hospitality? I give up my weekends to serve others too.

TONY JONES: Steve Ciobo?

STEVE CIOBO: Sure. Well, I'm not sure about which other industries you're referring to but on the issue of penalty rates more generally...

STEVE CIOBO: Oh, okay. So, well, look, ultimately, if the Productivity Commission has put that forward, that's best directed towards the Productivity Commission but I want to talk about penalty rates more generally. The decision that we've got to make around penalty rates and Iíll give you an example. My office is on Chevron island on the Gold Coast. Just down the road from me was a sandwich bar. It was open six days a week. When they brought in the penalty - it was closed on Mondays. When they brought in higher penalty rates under Labor, I spoke to the proprietor of that shop who employed three women in his store and he said "It's no longer viable for me to open on a Sunday." So he then closed and he had a two-day weekend, Sunday and Monday and didn't open on Sunday at all. Now the consequence of that so-called higher rates of pay was that those three women actually lost out on employment full stop on Sundays because it was no longer viable for him to open and we see that now on public holidays. Youíve only got to walk around any tourist area, for example, on the Gold Coast or in Brisbane and see how many cafes and restaurants are now closed because the owner is not making any money. So it's not about trying to begrudge people from getting extra pay from penalty rates. It's just a reflection of the economic facts, which is that if a business isn't making money, it's not going to open and so if you say, well, what's in it for you as a hospitality worker? Well, in many instances and what we know in aggregate terms across the economy, is that the higher the penalty rates are, the fewer employment opportunities that are created.

RYAN WEBB: A recent study by Restaurant & Catering Australia has found that unifying penalty rates across Saturday and Sundays could create 40,000 new jobs in Australia with almost 9,000 right here in Queensland. With youth unemployment at 13.5% nationally and peaking at well over 20% in regional areas, it's clear that double time rates on Sundays are locking tens of thousands of young Australians out of the work force. If we're serious about creating jobs and opportunity, wouldn't ending Sunday penalty rates be a great place to start?

TONY JONES: I will start with Terri Butler on this.

RYAN WEBB: So you're saying an interest group commissioned a report and it said exactly what the interest group wanted? That's amazing! What are the odds? What are the odds, Nick? Look, my dad was a shift worker. Unsociable hours. He deserved penalty rates. The former questioner was a chef. He works unsociable hours. You give up your Sundays. You're not there for Mother's Day, Father's Day, you're not there for church. You're not there for all sorts of things. You deserve recognition for that. I'm an employer myself. I have got a nanny at home. I pay her penalty rates when she works overtime. I don't know if anyone else on this panel does that. I think when people work unsociable hours, there should be recognition of that. When I was a lawyer I did some work on the night shift penalty case for firemen. You know, this politician had said "Oh, these guys, they just stand around having photos taken. They're not doing anything." They are doing anything. They're having their life disrupted. Theyíre having their family disrupted and they are paying a significant price. We're already talking about some of the lowest-paid people. Do not believe the gobbledygook that says if you just cut wages suddenly there will be magically more employment. That's just more of the trickle-down nonsense that Steve Ciobo was talking about before.

TERRI BUTLER: Bill Shorten has said that we will fight for penalty rates because that's what we will do. Thatís what weíve always done, Tony.

TONY JONES: I think he said - in fact he said...

TERRI BUTLER: Thatís what weíve always done.

TONY JONES: He said it's up to the commission and I will accept the independent tribunal.

JACQUI LAMBIE: Yeah, thatís exactly what he said.

TERRI BUTLER: Bill Shorten has...

RICHARD DI NATALE: We can legislate - we can legislate (indistinct)...

TERRI BUTLER: Oh, because that worked so well in the US, legislating the minimum wage.

RICHARD DI NATALE: We can legislate penalty rates. We could do that.

TERRI BUTLER: How do you think Ted Kennedy would've felt about that?

RICHARD DI NATALE: We could legislate penalty rates.

TERRI BUTLER: And then they'd be stuck in stone forever. You never get an improvement.

STEVE CIOBO: But, Terri, the problem is that you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

RICHARD DI NATALE: And why is that a problem? If you want to protect penalty rates, just protect them in law. I mean, I agree with you. I agree with you.

TERRI BUTLER: Mate, go to the US and ask them about how that worked for their minimum wages.

RICHARD DI NATALE: I agree with you that penalty rates are important and when the Parliament starts to sit on a Sunday maybe we can have a discussion about whether we abolish penalty rates.

TONY JONES: Can I just quickly get to this point, though: if Bill Shorten is going to accept the tribunal's decision and they say Sunday penalty rates go for people like the hospitality workers, Labor won't be fighting it?

TERRI BUTLER: We're fighting for penalty rates. We put in a submission, Tony, to the Fair Work Commission, unlike some other people on this panel.

RICHARD DI NATALE: A submission.

TONY JONES: But are you going to accept...

TERRI BUTLER: No, we're going to win.

TONY JONES: Are you going to accept the tribunal's decision or not?

TERRI BUTLER: Tony, we put in a submission arguing why penalty rates should be there. Penalty rates have been a feature...

TERRI BUTLER: Penalty rates have been - look, Iíve got a bit more confidence in Fair Work Commission than you do. Maybe because you've never been there but I have. And I know that penalty rates have been a feature in this country for a very long time because the commission recognises the unsociable hours and the sacrifices that your kids, that your family members, that your friends, that you make because you give up your time on a Sunday. You're quite right, maybe Parliament should sit, Richard. Maybe churches should start having services on a Tuesday lunchtime. But the fact is our society is divided up. We do have weekends. Weekends still matter.

NICK XENOPHON: Look, I took a lot of water on this politically because I was worried about young people losing their jobs on Sundays. I handled it badly. I listened and I learnt from both small businesses and employees. Restaurant & Catering Australia, 40,000, the figure that I relied on when I advocated for this, I think in a misguided way, was 4,000. So there's been a zero added on in the last few years. Look, I think small businesses are doing it tough. If students are working on a Sunday and that's the only job they can get, that's something to take into account but ultimately, I hate to say it, I'm with Bill Shorten on this. I think you need to have the independent umpire to assess it. If there is some small variation for small businesses with genuinely, with a dozen or 20 employees or less, maybe there's something in that but we mustn't lose that safety net.

TONY JONES: Jacqui Lambie?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Yes, last time we let a tribunal or a commission decide something was the Road Safety Remuneration Tribunal and 35,000 truck driver owners would've lost their bloody jobs. That's what happens up there.

TERRI BUTLER: That is not true.

JACQUI LAMBIE: That's exactly what's true.

TERRI BUTLER: Thatís not the last time a decision was made.

JACQUI LAMBIE: Exactly whatís true.

TERRI BUTLER: You're wrong.

JACQUI LAMBIE: So, you know, what, don't trust those public servants.

TERRI BUTLER: They make decisions every day of the week.

JACQUI LAMBIE: I can tell you that right now.

TERRI BUTLER: Oh, goo, public servant bashing. Excellent. Any public servants in the audience? Would you like to tell her what you think?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Okay. First of all, this is like Medicare. If you start chipping away at your penalty rates...

TERRI BUTLER: Isnít that run by public servants?

JACQUI LAMBIE: ...it's like Medicare, it will be the front line services that will be next. Thereís no doubt about that. That money that these people earn on Sundays, that feeds back into their small businesses within their community. So no way am I supporting penalty cuts for Sundays. I just won't do that.

TONY JONES: Okay, weíre going to move on. We have got plenty of questions to go through. You're watching Q&A live from Brisbane. The Prime Minister called this double dissolution to clear away a hostile Senate but the experts tell us after July 2 the balance of power will still be held by the Greens and Independents like Nick Xenophon and Jacqui Lambie. Our next question is from Harry Spicer.

PUT MINOR PARTIES LAST?

HARRY SPICER: Thanks, Tony. My question is to all the crossbenchers here tonight. Given that you held the Gillard Government hostage which objectively resulted in horrendous policy outcomes for Australia, and given that youíve now spent the last three years being openly hostile to any reform in the Senate, as well as regularly being patently unreasonable in negotiations, arguably holding our democracy to your self-interest, why should Australians consider voting for you this election? Are Independents really what the punters want?

TONY JONES: Richard Di Natale, you can start us off.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Okay.

TONY JONES: So I think you're the only one who actually held Julia Gillard to account.

RICHARD DI NATALE: I suspect he's not a Greens voter.

TONY JONES: How did you guess that?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Look, a few things. Let me firstly challenge this assertion that the previous period of the Gillard Government with the support of the Greens and Independents was not a productive period of government. We had the world's most significant climate legislation passed. The best climate laws anywhere in the country. We had a number of other things, Medicare-funded dental care and so on.

TONY JONES: Iíll just say politically the carbon tax turned out to be a fatal misjudgment on Gillard's part, did it not?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, the problem with...

TERRI BUTLER: Voting against the CPRS was a fatal misjudgement on the Greenís part.

RICHARD DI NATALE: And I think history has sort of been rewritten a little bit here. The problem with that period of government was the division within the Labor Party. You had the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd division and people were very angry about that. I think the climate legislation - there's very significant support for strong climate laws in the country. We had Medicare-funded dental care. You have got kids now who can go to the dentist and have $1,000 worth of Medicare funded dental care provided and that was a condition of the Greens inside playing a constructive role with independents, with the Labor Party. Now, talking about the role we've played in the Senate at the moment...

TONY JONES: Do it briefly because we want to hear from everybody.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Yeah, look, if it wasn't for the Senate we'd had Medicare co-payments, we'd have young kids who have been taken off income support for six months, we'd have $100,000 degrees and the Senate played a very constructive role. Weíre there as a house of review. When there's bad policy, we won't support it. Weíve also been very constructive. We helped to pass laws around multinational tax avoidance. The Greens ensured that that legislation got through. Medical Research Future Fund, foreign ownership legislation, a whole raft of significant legislation with the Greens playing a constructive role in the Senate and Australians like it. They put us there, they vote for us, because they want a check on executive government. That's the reason the Senate exists and that's why people vote for us in that position.

TONY JONES: Okay, Nick Xenophon?

NICK XENOPHON: Sometimes the Senate needs to save the government from itself. That was a ripper of a question and let me rip into it now. The fact is, I come from the political centre. At the last election, no, Steve says we're on the fringes. At last election I managed to outpoll the Labor Party and just under the Liberal Party vote. I was up against Cory Bernardi and he's much more popular than me in South Australia. But the issue is that the Senate is there to put a check on the executive arm of government, as Richard said.

HARRY SPICER: I understand that but if you take a look at, like, the United Kingdom system or the Queensland system, you can clearly see in those systems, like, where the government's run right, they get pulled into line and they get voted out. The Newman government was voted out and in the UK where they donít have that upper house...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Remember Joh Bjelke-Petersen? Does that name ring a bell?

TONY JONES: Okay, finish your point there. Go ahead.

HARRY SPICER: Yeah, Iím just saying, you know, I think governments should be given a mandate to go and do the reform they want to do and if the electorate hate that, well, then kick them out but at least...

TONY JONES: Okay, well, no, that's a good point to bring Nick Xenophon back in.

NICK XENOPHON: Well, guess what? The founding - those that founded our constitution 120-odd years ago during those constitutional conventions, agreed that we needed to have a check and balance. We need have a States' House. We needed to have a proportional representation system which in some ways is more democratic than the winner take all approach in the lower house, in a sense, in seats. So that's really important, that we need to have that check and balance. From my point of view, it's about working constructively with the government of the day, but it's also about holding them to account. And my concern is that the major parties are not in tune with a whole range of issues, such as Free Trade Agreements which I think aren't in the national interest. So you're shaking your head. Happy to exchange some information with you on that.

TONY JONES: Okay.

NICK XENOPHON: But the issue is this...

TONY JONES: Nick, can I just jump in there?

NICK XENOPHON: Yeah. Yeah, sure.

TONY JONES: Because, if the polls are right, you could end up with three or even four senators. You could be in a very significant position and going back to the second part of his question there, would you accept the government has a mandate to do certain things, for example, the $50 billion company tax cut?

NICK XENOPHON: People vote differently between the two Houses of Parliament. I mean, I have real concerns that the $50 billion tax cut, corporate tax cut, is the best way to stimulate the economy. We are facing the loss of 200,000 jobs in manufacturing in this country by the end of next year. That, to me, is a jobs crisis that we need to address now, rather than when people turn up on dole queues.

TONY JONES: So, sorry, that's a "no" to the corporate tax cut?

NICK XENOPHON: Look, the government has the mandate to introduce legislation. The Senate has a mandate to scrutinise it very carefully.

TONY JONES: Okay. Jacqui Lambie?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Just so - the mandating is not the issue. It's the stuff that they bring in after that they don't tell you before the election. That's the problem. Okay, now just so weíre clear, the crossbench has put through 75% of the legislation. We put through $30 billion worth of savings and $32 billion we did not. Okay. But if you want - I mean, this gentleman over here, Iím sorry, what was your name up there? You were very good. Everything you said was very, very true. And do you know why it's come to that? Because you've had the Labor and Libs in power. Do you still want them to continue in the next 10 or 20 years? That's the choice that you have because it's not us that have made this mess. It is the majors.

TONY JONES: Jacquie, he might not want his kids to be conscripted though. I mean, maybe your solutions arenít...

JACQUI LAMBIE: No, it's involuntary. Itís involuntary.

TONY JONES: Iím just suggesting. Iím just not sure.

STEVE CIOBO: Tony, can I just say something?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Itís involuntary.

TONY JONES: Yeah.

STEVE CIOBO: Can I just - I just want to put a bit of a reality check on some of this conversation from the crossbench. I mean, we're talking about Australia. We've had 25 years of continuous economic growth, the only country in the world with a period of growth that long, we've got 5.7% unemployment. We're a country that is frankly, in global terms, one of the highest standard of livings in the world, a per capita GDP ratio that's the envy around the world, one of the best health systems in the world.

STEVE CIOBO: But hang on. I'm not saying that everybody has it great. Iím not saying that for a second. But when I hear Jacqui and yourself, Nick, saying about this great mess and how bad it is, I mean, for goodness' sake. A reality check.

RICHARD DI NATALE: You've been saying that about Labor for the past 20 years.

STEVE CIOBO: A reality check. No, no, no, no, hang on.

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STEVE CIOBO: A reality check about how we're performing as a country because, you know what, this country...

STEVE CIOBO: This country is standing up. This country is standing on its own two feet and doing pretty well. That's not to say things can't be better but as a country we are doing pretty well and itís because of the sensible mainstream policies that ...(indistinct)...

TONY JONES: Can I just say, so are you basically arguing that, even with the situation in the Senate, we're doing well? So it isn't a really serious problem?

STEVE CIOBO: No, no, no.

JACQUI LAMBIE: Thereís no more Budget emergency, Tony. That's been made quite clear.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Nothing brings them closer together, Tony, than a little bit of competition from the outside. I mean, youíve got Steven going in to bat for the Labor Party now after spending the last...

TERRI BUTLER: I don't think that's what he was doing, Richard.

STEVE CIOBO: The reality is, Richard, that apart from those comment, the fact is that as a nation, on any objective measure, what I'm saying is Australia isn't doing too badly and things aren't all rotten.

TONY JONES: Sorry, weíve got a few things to get through. Letís go to our next question. Itís from Patricia Balchin.

HUNG PARLIAMENT

PATRICIA BALCHIN: Moving on from...

TONY JONES: Hang on. Weíll just wait. Patricia, can you stand up so we can see you?

PATRICIA BALCHIN: Yeah.

TONY JONES: Thank you.

PATRICIA BALCHIN: My question is to Richard, to Nick and to Jacqui. The polls are tightening, so in the event of a hung Parliament, which side of politics would you choose and, in your opinion, who would make the better Prime Minister?

TONY JONES: Nick Xenophon?

NICK XENOPHON: I think it's a million to one shot in terms of that but if it does happen, it depends and I'm hoping that we will pick up some seats in the Lower House, particularly in South Australia and I...

TONY JONES: Well, you're looking at both Liberal and Labor seats because the polls are saying you're actually polling very well in - well, at least one poll is saying youíre polling much higher in the Lower House in South Australia than anyone thought.

NICK XENOPHON: Well, we'll wait and see but I think, you know, Rebecca Sharkey our candidate for Mayo, is doing very well based on some recent polls in the seat against Jamie Briggs. Look, in the highly unlikely event that occurs, then it's a question of negotiating with both sides, being open about it, consulting with your community, and basically trying to see who will do the best job and to try and bring the parties to the centre on issues such as gambling...

TONY JONES: So but do you have a set of principles around who you would choose?

NICK XENOPHON: Yes, we do.

TONY JONES: What are they? Who gets the highest popular vote? Who gets the most number of seats? What does the set of principles tell you?

NICK XENOPHON: The set of principles will be what will they do about issues such as predatory gambling, about Australian made and Australian jobs and about government transparency and accountability? These, I think, are core issues.

TONY JONES: So itís a horse trading arrangement youíre talking about?

NICK XENOPHON: No, itís about principles and the principles are that the major parties - I think it's outrageous that you have the Federal Police using their resources, raiding people under an antiquated Official Secrets Acts when Senator Conroy's office was raided just a few days ago.

TONY JONES: Jacqui Lambie?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Well, first...

TONY JONES: Have you got a set of principles around who you would go for? Who would make the best Prime Minister or you already have your mind...

JACQUI LAMBIE: No. No.

TONY JONES: Do you have your mind set on that? Do you know?

JACQUI LAMBIE: No, I donít because, like Iíve already said, we donít have a great talent pool when it comes to Prime Ministers in this country to choose from, I will be honest. I actually feel that way and I'm sure many Australians do as well. But I'm not running lower house candidates, so my concentration is in the Senate and I will do what I have done in the past and every legislation that comes up, I will be voting on that with its own merits, so I will be doing what I'm doing already out there, consulting, talking to the people in the know and that's how I will make my decisions and what's best by the Australian people and Tasmanians and thatís what Iíll be doing.

TONY JONES: Richard Di Natale?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, just look at the issues that we're campaigning on during this election: taking strong action on global warming, the transition to the renewable energy economy and all the jobs that come with that. A bit more decency towards people seeking asylum in this country rather than brutalising them.

TONY JONES: Yeah. Very precisely in a hung Parliament, which party would you choose and who would make the better Prime Minister?

RICHARD DI NATALE: So look at those issues: inequality, Medicare, schools, political donations and reform around those areas. Now, on all of those measures, this government has been a disaster. They have been a disaster. So while this is a decision for the party to make, my view is that it's inconceivable that we could support this government and that, ultimately, if the choice came down to who we'd support, we'd like to enter productive, responsible negotiations with the Labor Party.

TONY JONES: And, Terri Butler, are you open to an alliance with the Greens? You've done it before.

TERRI BUTLER: We intend to win a majority in the Lower House. I think probably the more likely question is: what are the alliances going to be in the Senate once Malcolm Turnbull's policy to get Pauline Hanson elected to the Senate comes good and she is in the Senate next term? I think, frankly, Malcom Turnbull getting Pauline Hanson into the Senate is going to be the biggest sleeper issue, and I actually think he should apologise for getting her in there in the first place.

TONY JONES: Okay, weíre going to move onto our...

RICHARD DI NATALE: And, Tony, I reckon...

TONY JONES: Very briefly.

RICHARD DI NATALE: I reckon a Labor/Liberal coalition probably makes the most sense. I reckon thatís the one that we should have.

TERRI BUTLER: Oh come on, Richard! Youíre just - honestly, thatís such a silly thing to have said. Our values are so different.

HANNAH TAYLOR: There's been ongoing discussion of preference deals between the Liberals and the Greens in a mutual attempt to undercut Labor seats. Wouldn't any such preference deal, whether formal or informal, be a complete betrayal of the values of both of your parties?

TONY JONES: Particularly when you want an alliance with them.

RICHARD DI NATALE: So, let's just be clear. We won't be preferencing the Liberal Party in any seat in the country and weíve made that...

TERRI BUTLER: She was talking about a deal.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Weíve made that very clear. We'll do what we've done in most election. Our branches will preference Labor. In some seats they won't like the Labor candidate and they won't recommend preferences to anybody. That's the decision that I suspect we'll make. Youíve got Anthony...

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TONY JONES: Isn't that essentially a strategic decision in seats where you a chance of winning?

RICHARD DI NATALE: The only person - the only person out there canvassing...

TONY JONES: Can we - sorry, you need to respond to that.

RICHARD DI NATALE: What was the question?

TERRI BUTLER: You're doing it because you made the deal with the Liberals. I mean, you're not denying you made the deal?

RICHARD DI NATALE: What deal are you talking about?

TERRI BUTLER: Well, Michael Kroger is saying that you made a deal.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh, Michael Kroger said it. It must be true.

TERRI BUTLER: So you're denying it?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Yes, I am absolutely.

TERRI BUTLER: Thereís no deal with the Liberals?

RICHARD DI NATALE: There is no deal with the Liberal Party. There is absolutely no deal. The only deal that Iím aware of...

TERRI BUTLER: You haven't made a deal with them but youíre not going to preference?

RICHARD DI NATALE: ...is the deal between the Labor Party and the Liberal Party in Melbourne Ports where Michael Danby has said he would rather have a Liberal member of parliament than a Greens member, effectively in a hung parliament, potentially handing government to the Liberals. And we've got Anthony Albanese out there saying, to the Liberal Party, please give me your preferences. He's been out there for the past two weeks, with their begging bowl saying ďWe desperately need your preferences to help me get over the line. Pleading for Liberal preferences.

TONY JONES: Let me quickly go to Steve Ciobo here. I mean Michael Kroger, Victorian powerbroker of the Liberal Party, did want to do agreements with the Greens. Have any of them happened? Would you support such an agreement, a preference swapping deal?

STEVE CIOBO: Richard has already made his point very clear in terms of there being no deal but, you know, for me, Tony, itís quite fascinating to watch Terri and Richard bicker because, you see, what's fascinating about this election is that the Labor Party knows that they're in serious strife, because they obviously appeal to the centre left. Richard knows this is the best opportunity that the Greens have ever had to really strike forward. They're trying to do that. The way in which you see this playing out is take, for example, on border protection, the Labor Party is split, massively split on border protection. More than 30 candidates and members have now openly repudiated Bill Shorten's position on border protection. Richard knows it. He's tapping into those who say, well, you know, the way forward isn't what the government's currently doing and the Labor Party is completely split down the guts, because you got people like Terri and others who say, no, no, there's no difference between us and the Liberal Party and then you have got those on the far left of the Party...

TERRI BUTLER: That is not what I have said. Come on, Steven.

STEVE CIOBO: Then those on the far left of the Party who are saying we're with the Greens. We're with the Greens. I mean, this is the fundamental problem that Labor has got, the challenge they have got to get over. Richard knows it. That's why he's excited because he says this is the best chance we've ever had to get more Greens members in.

RICHARD DI NATALE: No, no, Tony, look, I know this is really hard to believe but I don't care what the Labor Party think about this issue. I care about those kids...

STEVE CIOBO: Albanese does.

RICHARD DI NATALE: ...who are rotting in hell holes in those offshore camps because we've got a Liberal Government and a Labor Party who haven't got the courage to stand up and say these are people who are going to make a contribution to this country and a decent society doesn't take innocent people and harm them, and we know they're being harmed, to send a message to someone else.

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TONY JONES: Okay. Iím going to cut that one off there. You've both had your say. I want to hear our next question, a totally different subject. It's from Nathan Scholz.

TRICKLE DOWN TAX CUTS?

NATHAN SCHOLZ: My question is to Steve Ciobo.

TONY JONES: Hang on a sec. Can you please stand up, Nathan?

NATHAN SCHOLZ: Yeah, sure. My question is to Steven Ciobo. My wife and I own a small business. A cafť, which I'm very pleased that previous Liberal members of this panel have recognised as being important to the political debate. We unfortunately don't have a $6,000 toaster. The corporate tax cuts which your government have proposed will give my wife and I about an extra $8 a week, which is excellent. But meanwhile I understand that people in this room are more likely for themselves and their families to spend more money going to the GP. So my question is: wouldn't it make more sense to cut out the middle man? You could keep the $8. Everyone in this room could have bulk-billing protected and then all of my customers would have more money for our shop.

TONY JONES: Steve Ciobo? Are you surprised to find a small business owner who doesn't want the tax cut?

STEVE CIOBO: Well, look, I mean, what we're trying to do and the focus and the reason we've put this enterprise tax cut on the table is because we know that small businesses are the backbone of the Australian economy. If that's a clichť, there's a reason why that a clichť, because small businesses drive Australia forward. So by providing a tax cut, we're going to be going from being one of the most heavily taxed nations in the world with respect to company tax rates, and actually become one that's more competitive and we know that by doing that, more businesses will employ people, there will be an improvement in overall profitability and that's ultimately going to be good for the Australian economy.

TONY JONES: Just a quick one though. On his figures, well, actually go ahead. Where do you get this $8 a week figure? Is that how you have calculated the tax...

NATHAN SCHOLZ: Yeah, absolutely. So a 1% tax cut, corporate tax cut next year, would be in the order of, say, $400. I think the Australian Bureau of Statistics figures were something like average profitability $70,000, which means youíre looking at a $7,000 saving. Now, look, the - sorry, a $700 saving. Where I have a difficulty with this argument is certainly to have more jobs you need profitability but I don't understand why - and certainly with your corporate background, you think that more profitability certainly leads to more jobs. I own a coffee shop, as I said. I need one, two or three people making coffees in the morning. Why if I'm making more profit am I suddenly going to put on a fourth or fifth or a sixth person? It doesn't make sense.

STEVE CIOBO: Well, it does make sense and the reason is makes sense is because we see it happen time and time and time, every single day. Businesses that aren't making money don't employ staff. Businesses that are losing money fire staff. Businesses that are making money and growing employ more staff. I mean, that's an incontrovertible fact.

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STEVE CIOBO: But hang on, but itís not about - itís not - itís not about...

TONY JONES: Okay.

STEVE CIOBO: It's not about one thing in isolation. It's about multiple things. I mean, you don't have to take my word for it. Bill Shorten when he, as Leader of the Opposition, in his budget in reply speech last year, spoke at length about the need to cut the company tax rate down to 25%. I mean that's from the head of the Labor Party. Bill Shorten at a speech in ACOSS used the exact words and he said "A reduction in company tax rates builds jobs and grows jobs across the full ladder of opportunity across all income levels."

TONY JONES: Okay, Steve, letís get a response from Terri Butler on that first of all and I want to hear from other panellists as well but keep your answers brief so we get through some more questions.

TERRI BUTLER: Sure, definitely will. So the corporate tax cuts that we're talking about are 48.2 billion worth of tax custs over ten years. They are costing $8 billion a year to all of us in this room, taxpayers, and what they're expected to...

STEVE CIOBO: Itís not costing money.

TERRI BUTLER: ...achive is .6 of 1% in terms of increase in gross national income. That's what we're talking about spending around $50 billion for. Now, yes, Bill did talk about an aspiration for small business for a lower tax rate. Absolutely. But what the Liberals are bringing in is a corporate tax cut for everyone and you know who is going to benefit because of dividend imputation, itís going to benefit foreign shareholders. Thatís who is going to get the benefit of that tax cut. Ross Gittins said today it's more like foreign aid for wealthy shareholders in other countries than it is a tax cut for corporations in Australia. So you know what, how about we take that money and we spend it on health and education, which will actually contribute to economic growth.

TONY JONES: Okay.

TERRI BUTLER: Don't take my word for it, ask the OECD.

TONY JONES: Letís just hear from our other panellists. Jacqui Lambie, you wanted to get in?

JACQUI LAMBIE: Okay, so this is the problem that I have: what classifies as a small business? How much money can they make? Because I can tell you what, if they put a cap, because a lot of small businesses don't make a lot of money. If you actually put a cap on that instead of feeding your big business mates up the top, you would be able to give them about another 10% cut on top. You would be able to do that and then they would be able to employ more people. But youíre going to - you know, that's a small business. Multinationals are not small businesses, mate.

TONY JONES: Nick Xenophon?

NICK XENOPHON: Am I missing something here because most small businesses - and the ABC Fact Check Unit might say that I'm wrong and, by the way, they're being shut down, I think, after the election, which I think some people, some pollies might be quite happy about. I'm not.

TERRI BUTLER: Not me.

NICK XENOPHON: Even though I've been caught out by them a couple of times. Yeah, but I learn from that. Look, the thing is, most small businesses - I think about 90% of small businesses - with, you know, less than a turnover of $2 million are not incorporated. They're not companies. They're actually sole traders or partnerships and there's nothing in it for them. So thereís a real...

TONY JONES: Soon you will be negotiating with him, not teaching him. Okay, Richard Di Natale?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, itís just they're choice. I mean, these are choices and, as a society, we have to decide what things we value. And whether we value Medicare, whether we think we should bring dental into Medicare. Whether we value schools and we want to invest in things like the Gonski reforms and kids. I mean, we've got almost half a million kids with disabilities in this country who can't get access to support in schools who can't meet their potential. Whether we value the arts. I mean, today the Greens launched an arts policy. More funding for artists through the Australia Council, through small and medium sized artistic enterprises. They're the sort of choices that we have as a society to make. And I mean, we - our view is business doesn't need this tax cut but people who need to access a doctor, kids who want a decent school, our artistic community and so on, that's where we should be making the investment and that's why the Greens are taking into this election a fully costed platform which doesn't include a tax cut, includes actually ending a whole lot of unfair tax breaks, and investing in the foundations of what is a decent society.

TONY JONES: Okay. Iím going to go quickly to another question. It will be our last question. We're in Queensland. It's an important concern. It's from Kristy Harling.

QUEENSLAND GHOST TOWNS

KRISTY HARLING: Good evening to the panel. I have lived in central Queensland, which encompasses towns such as Emerald, Blackwater and Moranbah, for a number of years working in the mining industry. Today we see the aftermath of the mining boom, after 21,000 jobs have been lost in the region. It breaks my heart to see local families struggling to put food on the table and to see hundreds of houses empty because of foreclosure with no-one to fill them. The people of central Queensland need help now and are suffering due to a lack of transition planning for the region. With all of this talk of jobs and growth, what are your plans for the next industry in central Queensland to ensure it is not left litterd with ghost towns?

TONY JONES: Steve Ciobo?

STEVE CIOBO: Look, great question. I mean as someone who - as someone who grew up in Far North Queensland, I've got, I think, a pretty good appreciation of a lot of the challenges that people from central and North Queensland have and what we've focused on is this exact issue about a transitioning economy. You would have heard the Prime Minister talk about making sure we have a national economic plan to deal with our transitioning economy. So the kinds of industries that we're talking about here, one we want to make sure that projects like, for example, Carmichael go ahead but, secondly, we also want to make sure that there's opportunities in, for example, the tourism industry. We want to make sure that for those that are going to be involved in welcoming more international tourists to Australia, a key growth sector for our country in the future, that they've got a chance to do that. We want to invest in skills training, invest in opportunities for those people to get an education if they want to pursue that so they can then also start to pursue other industries. We want to make sure that we're doing more around agribusiness and agricultural exports and to go to Nick's point about trade being bad, I hold the exact opposite...

NICK XENOPHON: I didn't say trade was bad. Don't verbal me.

STEVE CIOBO: Okay. Well, I'm shorthanding.

NICK XENOPHON: Donít verbal me.

STEVE CIOBO: Shorthanding.

NICK XENOPHON: Well, itís not shorthanding.

STEVE CIOBO: But the point is, though, that we can, by opening up more trade export opportunities, grow more opportunities for Australian businesses and we know that that will flow across the economy.

TONY JONES: Now, Steve, can I just jump in there? You mentioned tourism and, of course, we know the Great Barrier Reef is under a sort of an existential threat at the moment. Flinders University researchers say it's going to take $10 billion over ten years to save the reef. Is that part of your plan? I mean part of your planning?

STEVE CIOBO: Well, there's two things that are happening with the reef. One, the Coalition has put down $460 million to work around issues in terms of water quality. So we stopped, for example, dredging. I often hear, you know, Labor and the Greens talk about...

TONY JONES: Sorry, how much did you say?

STEVE CIOBO: 460 million.

TONY JONES: Okay.

STEVE CIOBO: Labor and the Greens talk about water quality. We actually stopped, under a Coalition, the dredging that was going to be putting sediment into the reef. In addition to that, what we're focused on is dealing with the issue of the climate change. Under the Coalition, we have put in - well, people can laugh but under the Coalition...

TERRI BUTLER: Yeah, but your policy is terrible.

STEVE CIOBO: ...we have put in place...

TERRI BUTLER: Thatís why people are laughing.

STEVE CIOBO: No, itís - well, the policy that apparently is terrible is a policy that will see Australia, on a per capita basis, put on the table in Paris and agreed to one of the highest per capita reductions in the world from this country.

TERRI BUTLER: That's because our per capita is so high at the moment.

STEVE CIOBO: And in Australia, what it actually means is that weíre going to play our role together with the rest of the world.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. So that's good. Terri Butler?

TERRI BUTLER: If you are doing so well on climate change, why did Malcolm Turnbull try to keep Australia out of that UN report? If youíre doing so well on climate change...

STEVE CIOBO: What are you talking about?

TERRI BUTLER: ...why are we having so much (indistinct)...

STEVE CIOBO: (Indistinct).

TONY JONES: Terri, Iím going to...

TERRI BUTLER: ...(Indistinct)...

TONY JONES: I mean, that's - that is a point well made because of the end of his answer but let's go back to the question and do you want to respond, Kristy?

KRISTY HARLING: Oh, look, I just want to see some actual - some real developments.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Policy.

TERRI BUTLER: Yeah.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Some policy, hey?

KRISTY HARLING: You know, and where is future?

TERRI BUTLER: So do we.

KRISTY HARLING: And especially, Richard, I would love to hear what you have for your plans for central Queensland especially.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Well, I tell you what we won't be doing...

TERRI BUTLER: (Indistinct)...

RICHARD DI NATALE: ...is opening up a new coal mine...

TONY JONES: Iíll come back to you.

RICHARD DI NATALE: ...and killing the Great Barrier Reef, right? You want to - if you care about tourism - if you care about tourism, you don't open up a whopping great big coal mine and fuel catastrophic global warming. But this is the great tragedy here in Australia right now is we've got the two old parties committed to opening up new coal mines and preventing this country from realising the huge opportunities that come with making the transition to the clean renewable energy economy. We've got a plan called Renew Australia. Tens of thousands of jobs, solar farms, solar thermal, wind farms, cutting-edge renewable energy technology. In Germany, 400,000 jobs because of the decisions they made, with the Greens in government at the time, to stimulate this economy. And the towns that benefit from them are regional communities. I was in - Iíve just done a regional tour: Broken Hill, Mildura, the Liverpool Plains and so on. What tremendous natural advantages we have in Australia with our sun, our wind, our space, our knowledge, our capacity, our expertise, to be able to fuel a jobs boom in those regional communities and the great tragedy, we've got the two old parties slashing the Australian Renewable Energy Agency's budget, committing - slashing the renewable energy target. More coal mines, fossil fuel subsidies and then taking those huge donations from the fossil fuel industry and if you want to know why those communities you spoke about are in such trouble, look no further than the massive donations that have been given to both the old parties from the fossil fuel lobby.

TONY JONES: Okay, Terri Butler?

TERRI BUTLER: Well, I don't support the Adani mine either, Iíve got to say. I mean fair play to our State...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Your party does.

TERRI BUTLER: No, no. Fair play to our...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Your party does.

TERRI BUTLER: No, no. Fair play to our State Government. They didn't have much discretion. They were using laws that had been amended by the Newman Government but I don't support it and might I say this: it's great that you have got a good policy, Richard. It's absolutely fantastic but we have a fantastic policy and we can form government and deliver it.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh!

TERRI BUTLER: That's the difference between Labor and the Greens. Our policy...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Not for long.

TERRI BUTLER: 50% renewables. No, no, this is serious. This is actually serious. You can make jokes but our policy...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Itís not a joke.

TERRI BUTLER: ...of 50% renewables by 2030 that we will implement, that will actually see the investment go back into renewables after Malcolm Turnbull and his crew slashed that investment, we will actually have a policy that will deliver on 50% renewables by 2030, will deliver green jobs for our economy, will protect our reef, $500 million to protect the reef.

TONY JONES: Okay.

TERRI BUTLER: And we'll have a just transition because, let's be honest, what's causing that trouble in central Queensland is climate change and the shutdown of the old industries and we have to have a plan not just a transition away from fossil fuels but to make sure people have jobs as that happens, skills, opportunities. The choice is between Malcolm Turnbull, who won't deliver that and Bill Shorten, who will. Thatís the choice.

TONY JONES: Okay, Iíll go to Nick Xenophon and just the principle from this side anyway is at the end of the mining boom, shouldn't have more mining. What do you say?

RICHARD DI NATALE: Oh no one is suggesting we shut down the iron ore industry.

TONY JONES: Okay.

RICHARD DI NATALE: I mean, that's a ridiculous proposition.

TONY JONES: Iím just checking.

NICK XENOPHON: We blew the mining boom. We blew it. We should've had a sovereign wealth fund. We should've been able to cushion ourselves from these shocks. Politicians hate saying this. I don't know the answer but I know that Suzanne Grant, who's running my team for the Senate in Queensland, I think sheís going to come and visit you very soon. So if I can get your details, I mean we just - this needs dialogue. This needs consensus and we need to find the funds so these communities don't wither and die.

TONY JONES: Jacqui Lambie?

JACQUI LAMBIE: First of all I just want to make it quite clear when it comes to all this you beaut, clean energy stuff, that when it comes to Germany, theyíre paying double the price we are for our power. Thatís the first thing. And their base load when their wind - when their wind isnít - their turbines aren't turning, they get their base load energy from France, which is nuclear energy. So that's how that operates, just so we're all quite clear. You need to have - I tell you what needs to go on: the same thing as what needs to be in Tasmania.

RICHARD DI NATALE: Thatís not true. Itís not - itís just not true.

JACQUI LAMBIE: We need to look at payroll tax and making that exempt outside the city areas. We need lower energy costs, obviously, and our dairy, first thing that we could do tomorrow is put a 50% a litre levy on our milk, so our dairy farmers survive in this country and you know what - you know what? I had Barnaby Joyce telling the - one of his staffers telling the national dairy products manager today to shut up and not say anything about what Barnaby's offering, because what Barnaby's offering will only help about 3,000 over the 6,000 farmers out there. That's all it's going to help. So you know what? His alternative for helping our dairy farmers is not an option. So let's get real here. Let's put 50 cents a litre levy on our milk. Thatís the first thing we can do tomorrow.

TONY JONES: Okay. All right. Iím going to quickly go back to Steve Ciobo. Listening to this, you're a Queenslander, youíve come from northern Queensland. But there's people out there really suffering.

STEVE CIOBO: Sure.

TONY JONES: So just in 30 seconds, how big is the commitment from your Government to fixing that?

STEVE CIOBO: Well, I mean, I'm not going to repeat myself. I outlined what weíre going to do. It's about a transitioning economy. It's about providing opportunities for additional mining investment but also in tourism, in reskilling, in training. We're putting money on the table to do all of these things and, I mean, Richard made a comment about no more coal mines. Well, you know what?

RICHARD DI NATALE: No, new coal mines.

STEVE CIOBO: What he means is no new coal mines in Australia because global demand for coal is still going through the roof.

STEVE CIOBO: So when Richard sits there and says - hang on. When you sit there and say youíre going to save the reef...

RICHARD DI NATALE: Itís in structural decline.

STEVE CIOBO: ...what you're actually saying is you donít want it in Australia...

RICHARD DI NATALE: It is in structural decline.

STEVE CIOBO: ...you want it to be done elsewhere in the world.

RICHARD DI NATALE: No, not at all.

STEVE CIOBO: Still emitting CO2 and, in fact, emitting higher levels of CO2 than you get in Australia.

TONY JONES: Okay.

STEVE CIOBO: Thatís not going to save the reef, mate.

TONY JONES: Okay.

STEVE CIOBO: It might make you feel good but itís not going to actually make a difference.

TONY JONES: Weíre...

RICHARD DI NATALE: (Indistinct)...

TONY JONES: Iím sorry. Iím sorry. We're over time. Sorry about that. That's all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel: Terri Butler, Richard Di Natale, Nick Xenophon, Steve Ciobo and Jacqui Lambie. And our thanks to the Brisbane Powerhouse and this great audience. Please give ourselves a quick round of applause. That's a polite round of applause for yourselves. Donít worry about it. Next Monday Q&A will turn the focus to regional Australia and Barnaby Joyce, indeed, will be able to answer some of those questions when we broadcast live from Tamworth with: the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Agriculture and local member for New England Barnaby Joyce; country Independent Tony Windsor, who wants to topple Mr Joyce in New England; Labor spokesman for agriculture and rural affairs, Joel Fitzgibbon; the Vice-President of the National Farmers Federation, Fiona Simson; the rural businesswoman Robbie Sefton - Opposition leader - oh, sorry, I beg your pardon. We have got a pause there. That's it for that panel. Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, I should add, has agreed to appear on Q&A in two weeks' time. We've also invited the Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull and we're waiting for his confirmation. Until next week, goodnight.

Terri Butler is the federal Labor Member for the Brisbane seat of Griffith, an electorate she has represented since former member Kevin Rudd resigned after the 2013 election. She is shadow assistant minister for family violence and child safety, universities and equality.

Born and raised in Cairns, Terri studied at James Cook University and graduated from the Queensland University of Technology with a Bachelor of Law (Hons) and a Bachelor of Arts (Journalism). She has, since then, undertaken executive education at Mt Eliza (Melbourne Business School) and prior to standing for preselection in Griffith had commenced a Masters of Law at the University of Queensland.

Before entering Parliament Terri was a lawyer and a principal of the national law firm Maurice Blackburn, where she established and led the Queensland Employment and Industrial Law Section. While working as a lawyer, Terri was repeatedly listed as one of Queenslandís top workplace relations lawyers in the Doyle's Guide to the Legal Profession.

Terri is the mother of two young children, April and Isaac, and lives with her husband, Troy, in the Griffith electorate.

Dr Richard Di Natale became Leader of the Australian Greens following the sudden decision by his predecessor, Christine Milne, to step down in May last year.

He was previously the spokesperson for health, youth, multiculturalism, gambling and sport.

Prior to entering parliament Richard was a general practitioner and public health specialist. He worked in Aboriginal health in the Northern Territory, on HIV prevention in India and in the drug and alcohol sector in Geelong.

Richard grew up in Melbourne, the son of Italian immigrants. Now Richard, his wife Lucy, and their two young sons live on a small, working farm in the foothills of Victoriaís Otway Range. He played VFA football for six years and is a long-suffering Richmond Tigers fan.

Nick Xenophon was first elected to represent South Australia as an Independent in the Senate in 2007, having already spent ten years in the Stateís Legislative Council.

He was well-known for his sustained campaigning against poker machines, and entered the Senate on a ĎNo Pokiesí platform. Other strong areas of interest include aged care, climate change, fuel pricing, housing affordability and the Murray-Darling Basin.

Nick has a reputation for being a true Independent and a tough negotiator in the horse-trading that takes place in the Senate over legislation when no one party has a majority. After being re-elected in 2013 Nick formed part of the large group of Greens, Independents and micro-party Senators with which the major parties have to negotiate to get the numbers to pass, or block, particular items of legislation.

He has widespread popularity in South Australia and formed the Nick Xenophon Team to contest the election. The party won one Lower House seat (Mayo in South Australia) and is likely to return several senators.Nick attended Prince Alfred College in Adelaide and studied law at the University of Adelaide, attaining his Bachelor of Laws in 1981. He established and became principal of his own law firm, Xenophon & Co, in 1984. Between 1994 and 1997 he served as president of the South Australian branch of the Australian Plaintiff Lawyers' Association.

Tasmanian Jacqui Lambie was re-elected to the Senate as head of the Jacqui Lambie Network in 2016 after being first elected to the senate as a member of the Palmer United Party in 2013. She is one of the key cross benchers who holds the balance of power in the Senate.

Senate Lambie became deputy leader of the PUP Senate team in 2013, but after a rancorous falling out with PUP founder Clive Palmer, she left the party and sat as an Independent. Prior to the 2016 election year she formed the Jacqui Lambie Network and fielded a team of Senate candidates in the 2016 election, but was the only candidate to win a Senate seat.

A former soldier with the Australian Army, Jacqui spent a decade serving Australia in the armed forces in the transport management and military policing divisions. Having been medically discharged from the army in 2000, she became an advocate for Australian war veterans and injured soldiers.