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You can get my email from my site to remind me when the time comes and negotiate payment one way or the other. I'll throw a Benjamin at that bet. I"ll plug it in my calendar.

Is there a way for the Forum to better serve as both official documentation of these types of bets and as a way of publicly "reminding" the losers to pay up? Perhaps a separate "wager" thread or a line documenting the commitment in the relevant personal profiles?

Because solar cells are tuned for the solar spectrum, not a black body.

What is the spectrum of this 'light bulb' then?
Hopefully not a lot of gamma or x-ray.

Quote:

BrLP is going to use a black body radiator as their initial "light bulb" until such time as they can get solar cells engineered for their reaction's specific spectrum.

Again ,what is the specific spectrum emitted? From what freq on the low side to what freq on the high side? What is the peak o/p freq?

Quote:

In the long run, with a fully tuned photovoltaic array along with increased vapor pressure, we could see individual units pumping out megawatt range power.

How long a run? You say the earlier model was cancelled due to it's paltry o/p. Now you say that the present design could be out done by new modifications. Will this present design model also see it's production canceled?

Because solar cells are tuned for the solar spectrum, not a black body.

BrLP is going to use a black body radiator as their initial "light bulb" until such time as they can get solar cells engineered for their reaction's specific spectrum.

In the long run, with a fully tuned photovoltaic array along with increased vapor pressure, we could see individual units pumping out megawatt range power.

Almost anything can be a black body emitter in theory- even things glowing in the visible spectrum, ultraviolet, or X-rays. I gather that what you mean is that the generator, even though producing huge amounts of energy, will be initially operated in the sub-visible spectrum. If so, then boiling water would be far more efficient than the solar cell capture you describe, even if they ultimately develop this solar cell breakthrough. Efficient use of this method is extremely well established and can be used off the shelf. And of course, with megawatt units using these magic solar cells, I kind of wonder what the plan is what to do with all the energy that is not converted to electricity (i.e. the massive waste heat).

I am starting to worry that you do believe this stuff. Let me ask my prior question in a different way- I hope that you are not in any position to lose money depending on the success or failure of this company.

What is the spectrum of this 'light bulb' then?
Hopefully not a lot of gamma or x-ray.

Again ,what is the specific spectrum emitted? From what freq on the low side to what freq on the high side? What is the peak o/p freq?

How long a run? You say the earlier model was cancelled due to it's paltry o/p. Now you say that the present design could be out done by new modifications. Will this present design model also see it's production canceled?

It's way harder to ram a steam engine into a car than a geodesic photovoltaic dome.

There's so much power being produced by the reaction that even if they just got a 5% conversion rate, that still means they are producing 50 kw.

The PV generator has no moving parts and will last for 20 years virtually maintenance free. Try that with a steam engine. Maintenance costs and longevity need to be taken into consideration when calculating if a PV is better than steam power. There's also the regulatory complications of a grid tied power source. The current solution by-passes all the power plant regulations and leaves the device regulated like any other gas powered home generator.

It's way harder to ram a steam engine into a car than a geodesic photovoltaic dome ...snip....

Doubt that, steam engines are an established technology which would mean he could start the commercialization right now. That he is waiting for some other technology that apparently hasn't been developed rather than getting on with it should be a warning sign that something doesn't quite add up.

The PV generator has no moving parts and will last for 20 years virtually maintenance free. Try that with a steam engine. Maintenance costs and longevity need to be taken into consideration when calculating if a PV is better than steam power. There's also the regulatory complications of a grid tied power source. The current solution by-passes all the power plant regulations and leaves the device regulated like any other gas powered home generator.

Why start with trying to make it small enough to power a car?
Get them in to power stations.
They could replace the existing boilers in coal and biomass plant and use the existing turbines and generating plant.

The talking heads were gushing about possibilities like big lottery ticket buyers.

I have a couple tickets in my pocket that are big winners,,,, at least until such time as I check them.
(I'm not greedy either. There are 44 second prizes of $1million each. I'd settle for one of those instead of the 50Mill grand prize)

This was my basic question a while back. If this thing is making electricity that is even measurable in watts or kilowatts or megawatts, then by far the most efficient way to harness that energy is either to regulate it and send it to electric consumers, or if it can't be regulated, to turn it into heat.

__________________Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

Doubt that, steam engines are an established technology which would mean he could start the commercialization right now. That he is waiting for some other technology that apparently hasn't been developed rather than getting on with it should be a warning sign that something doesn't quite add up.

Right any type of prototype engine that clearly demonstrates the energy claims would win support from the scientists and investors who could take it out of crank to the next level.

__________________'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

What is the spectrum of this 'light bulb' then?
Hopefully not a lot of gamma or x-ray.

Again ,what is the specific spectrum emitted? From what freq on the low side to what freq on the high side? What is the peak o/p freq?

How long a run? You say the earlier model was cancelled due to it's paltry o/p. Now you say that the present design could be out done by new modifications. Will this present design model also see it's production canceled?

You got me thinking about the actual form of the energy released when the atoms drop into the sub-ground state. Can m-suede tell us the wavelength of the electromagnetic energy as it is first released (separate from its absorption and re-emission as heat and light)? And is it a series of narrow wavelengths, such as an LED, or more a diffuse spectra similar to that emitted by hot black bodies as he implies?

This was my basic question a while back. If this thing is making electricity that is even measurable in watts or kilowatts or megawatts, then by far the most efficient way to harness that energy is either to regulate it and send it to electric consumers, or if it can't be regulated, to turn it into heat.

'zatcly. Since a photocell produces DC current, at household will require complete renovations, or, a DC-AC converter, the later of which will make it as big as a steam turbine generator of regulated AC current.

This was my basic question a while back. If this thing is making electricity that is even measurable in watts or kilowatts or megawatts, then by far the most efficient way to harness that energy is either to regulate it and send it to electric consumers, or if it can't be regulated, to turn it into heat.

Solar energy has proven this to be true too- even if one has solar electrical panels on ones own roof, the best approach is to integrate this with the established power grid, rather than setting up a completing independent generation/storage, etc. system.

Doubt that, steam engines are an established technology which would mean he could start the commercialization right now. That he is waiting for some other technology that apparently hasn't been developed rather than getting on with it should be a warning sign that something doesn't quite add up.

PV is an established technology.

Masimo Semiconductor already has the concentrator PV cells developed and will be delivering the first PV dome on the 13th.

This makes no sense. Concentrator solar cells use lenses to concentrate the light falling over a wide area into smaller solar cells. You would not use them for a small already incredibly bright light source. If anything, they would need the opposite to spread the light over more area to prevent burning up the solar cells.

The use of such concentrators in thermophtovoltaic generators is known. Take a look at this US Patent Application. Unless the light emitted by the thermal source is sufficient to utilize the PV cells with near-100% efficiency, the use of a concentrator makes economic and environmental sense, as the materials of most PV cells are both more expensive and have a higher environmental impact than the materials of the optics.

If I had to guess how BLP is faking their results, I'd bet on something like the linked device. They're known, and work, but are uncommon enough that lots of people would not recognize them, and be fooled.

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Sounds good.

You can get my email from my site to remind me when the time comes and negotiate payment one way or the other. I'll throw a Benjamin at that bet. I"ll plug it in my calendar.

Done.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

Wiki says the world record for solar cell efficiency is under 50%.

Why is BlackLight Power wasting so much of the energy it's magic device creates?

Well, if you can live with DC, the overall efficiency might be better. Heat>Turbine>AC Generator has at least two transitions, with loss at each. Heat>PV Cell only has one. Of course, turning it into AC for household use screws that up, but if you're designing your industrial set up around a DC source, that wouldn't matter.

__________________Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

Take a look at this US Patent Application. Unless the light emitted by the thermal source is sufficient to utilize the PV cells with near-100% efficiency, the use of a concentrator makes economic and environmental sense, as the materials of most PV cells are both more expensive and have a higher environmental impact than the materials of the optics.

If I had to guess how BLP is faking their results, I'd bet on something like the linked device. They're known, and work, but are uncommon enough that lots of people would not recognize them, and be fooled.

Brad Siskavich, the guy who filed that patent, is the Masimo engineer in charge of the BrLP project. You can see his presentation in the last link of the OP.

The light bulb is surrounded by an array of special solar cells called concentrator solar cells that are able to harness the energy from this enormously bright light source. These special solar cells already exist and are in use in solar farms around the world today.

This makes no sense. Concentrator solar cells use lenses to concentrate the light falling over a wide area into smaller solar cells. You would not use them for a small already incredibly bright light source. If anything, they would need the opposite to spread the light over more area to prevent burning up the solar cells.

I, too, would like an answer to this. This is exactly the opposite situation in which you'd use a concentrator arrangement. But "concentrator" sounds cool to the marks investors, so why not pile it on top of this steaming mess of pseudoscience?

There's no need to wait for tuned PV when they can use a black body radiator and conventional cells. The spectrum is almost entirely ultraviolet.

The spectrum of light, the reasoning behind PV, the black body radiator, etc.. is all explained in the OP videos.

You say that tuned PV cells would theoretically produce a great deal more power (order of magnitude iirc).
No need to wait though. Good to know.
So this model WILL NOT suffer the cancellation fate of the previous model which, according to you, was that a newer model produced more power?

You say that tuned PV cells would theoretically produce a great deal more power (order of magnitude iirc).
No need to wait though. Good to know.
So this model WILL NOT suffer the cancellation fate of the previous model which, according to you, was that a newer model produced more power?

(that is a question)

The new model produces orders of magnitude more power using order of magnitudes less space, and it is portable. No need for a power grid.

Well, it's not like we've studied the hydrogen atom in any detail. This sub-ground state could be lurking out there, unknown by mainstream science, in much the same way that modern mathematics has overlooked the possibility of a hitherto unknown integer between 0 and 1.

Now, that's cool, me linking to the same guy they're using! Well, it was the best example of a TPV system using a concentrator that I could find in less than half an hour.

But that guy, man would I love to ply him with a few beers and find out what he really thinks about Mills et al. Did you notice how, in 20 minutes of talking about this system, he never quite actually says he thinks Mills has something real? Did you notice that he sticks to discussing the details of his completely uncontroversial optical and PV designs?

To me, this looks like a guy who's been stuck making systems for a company that he knows is full of ****, but who pays some of the bills for his company. He can't just come out and say it's crap, because they'll lose the contract, but he also doesn't come out as a cheerleader, either.

Did you notice how, in 20 minutes of talking about this system, he never quite actually says he thinks Mills has something real? Did you notice that he sticks to discussing the details of his completely uncontroversial optical and PV designs?

I didn't notice that. What I saw was a nervous engineer who probably never gives public presentations.