America 2005 is Germany 1930

Originally posted by deltaboy
cant compare USA to Nazi Germany since we don't target Jews

You'll keep missing the point. The comparison isn't what the Nazi's did to certain groups of ppl, but the political methods used to control the
population.

Anyway the U.S. is not at the point yet when groups of ppl are rounded up and put in camps. That won't happen until we are at war with most of the
rest of the World. We are at where the Nazi's were in the 30's before World war broke out. We still have that to look forward to.

And no Bush is not Hitler, he's not smart enough. But our government is following the same fascist ideals and methods. Not quite with the same "in
your face" methods because the ruling elite learnt it is better to be more subtle and sneaky, slipping it in here and there with no lube...

I hope gecko that you are not counting only the conservative americans in you blatantly biased caveat.

However this thread, as far as I can tell is more about how the instruments of fascism and how the historical conditions for fascism are being slowly
introduced into the USA. I live here and despite all the screaming about war for oil, regular gasoline averages $2.45 around here. I had to spend
over two months to find a decent job, while in 1998, I got the first job I applied to.

Bush is not Hitler, but our short-sighted policies are going to lead us to chaos whether or not the neo-cons have control.

This isn't about partisan politics. It's about our founding fathers trying to eliminate an aristocracy, but us going ahead and letting one grow.

No one should be in office for more than 20 years, yet by redistricting we let the politicians stay in control until they die in some cases.

deltaboy said:
cant compare USA to Nazi Germany since we don't target Jews...
[...]
Hitler served in a war before he took power, Bush did not that is considered a relief that shows that they are both are different. if Bush lived and
experience Hitler's past then he truly be Hitler but he aint.

Im going to go with ANOK because I don't think your are grasping the situation in its entirety, your post which I have quoted about seems to me that
you are trying to convince yourself not others... The issues you raised are petty in comparrioson to the real things that were going on in WW2...

It was the mind-control of the masses that Hiltler used that should be compared to the US Government and Media systems...

And it is the obvious Imperialist expansion of the US Government that we should be comparing to WW2...

Racism and Hitler being in the army had little to do with the entirety of World War 2

NOTE: This was not a direct attack on you DeltaBoy, please do not take offense...

The Trotskyists and World War II
The Trotskyist analysis of World War II was that it was many wars in one. Ernest Mandel, Belgian Trotskyist and the most prominent postwar leader of
the FI (Fourth International), describes it as

An inter-imperialist war fought for world hegemony and won by the United States (though its rule would be territorially truncated by the extension
of the non-capitalist sector in Europe and Asia

A just war of self-defence by the Soviet Union against an imperialist attempt to colonise the country and destroy the achievements of the 1917
Revolution.

A just war of the Chinese people against imperialism which would develop into a socialist revolution.

A just war of Asian colonial peoples against various military powers and for national liberation and sovereignty, which in some cases (eg
Indochina) spilled over into socialist revolution.

A just war of national liberation fought by populations of the occupied countries of Europe, which would grow into socialist revolution
(Yugoslavia and Albania) or open civil war (Greece, north Italy). In the European East, the old order collapsed under the dual, uneven pressure of
popular aspirations and Soviet military-bureaucratic action, whereas in the West and South bourgeois order was restored – often against the wishes
of the masses – by Western Allied troops.

Ernest Mandel: The Meaning of the Second World War (Verso: London, 1986, pg 45) Mandel wrote extensively on Marxist economics and politics.
His two best known works were Marxist Economic Theory (Merlin Press: London, 1962) and Late Capitalism (Verso: London, 1978)

Originally posted by LeftBehind
You never heard the German media crying about an exit strategy for Poland.

The only reason the US said ANYTHING about an exit strategy is to further wrap the public in there already sufficating security blanket... Alot can
happen in 2 years... And the way things are going now, it will probably be ALOT longer...

I am aware that you can get facts to prove anything these days, and this is merely my personal opinion...

Ghost Soldier, I respect your right to your opinion, and even though I may not agree with it, I will defend with my life your right to say it.

That being said, the US is not a totalitarian country, and despite common interest in media and government, the american media is not Pravda.

We in the US who bother to take the time have many sources of information, in fact there are many groups inside the US who fight against the sort of
bias seen on many cable news channels here.

What I'm trying to say here is, yes the way our government is acting is vaguely similar to how many fascist governments acted years ago, but. . .
the US is not Germany and our country will split apart before you will see a completely fascist government here.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
The US is not Germany and our country will split apart before you will see a completely fascist government here.

I think people are taking the title of this thread too seriously, the title was meant to attract attention and give a vague representation about my
feelings towards to US Government and policies...

And while the US is not 100% like Nazi Germany, I feel it is obvious that it is heading down similar lines... And while Bush may not become a
dictator, there will surely be another figure-head representative of the mult-billion dollar companies to take his place...

originally posted by AmericanMadMan
You want some constructive criticism? I'll give it to you.

Your thesis is complete bunk. Your comparison of post WWI Germany with 2005 America lacks any kind of factual connection. Further more, your hatred
for America is what fueled your pathetically inept comparison. In your attempt to make America look as bad you can, you have proven your self without
a shadow of a doubt to be nothing more then a United States hating-at-any-cost boob.

Don't let facts and reason get in the way of your hate America crusade.

AMM,

This is right on time! I would like to add a lot more, but I think I'd be banned from ATS!

I can't do anything but laugh at all the anti-Americanism that this site generates. It's become very silly at the least.

I can add this: To everyone that hates us REAL Americans: Do you really think I give one damn if you all hate me or not?

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
In all fairness, you are making MANY assumptions. And clearly you have a liberal viewpoint. With that in mind, this thread is doomed to be unfair,
simply because you have corrupted it with opinion.

Why is everything that is against anything remotely republican automatically blamed on the liberals?
......Scape goat?

originally posted by AmericanMadMan
Your thesis is complete bunk. Your comparison of post WWI Germany with 2005 America lacks any kind of factual connection. Further more, your hatred
for America is what fueled your pathetically inept comparison. In your attempt to make America look as bad you can, you have proven your self without
a shadow of a doubt to be nothing more then a United States hating-at-any-cost boob.

Don't let facts and reason get in the way of your hate America crusade.

Firstly my thesis on Nazi Germany and 2005 America I think is completely worthy and makes just as much sense (if not more) than your argument against,
I wonder why when you had a complete lack of information to back up your point of veiw - is it perhaps because you are too scared to think critically
and objectively and see how far the tunnel will go, are you scared that what you may find out will confirm what I am saying, are you scared to put in
just a little effort to see that under your advanced Capitalist-Imperialistic system your are nothing more than a pawn.

You Americans think you are sooo free, because you have cable-television and junk-food resturants - but all you really are is a name and number on a
tax-bill, a name and number in some data-base... That is all... You are consumers, fueling your own stupidity by not standing up to the powers that
be...

I DO NOT hate AMERICANS...I hate your GOVERNMENT...I hate your FORIEGN POLICIES...I hate your EDUCATION SYSTEM...I hate the RACISM still evident in your country... I hate your advanced Capitalism and IMPERIALISM...I hate what your country does to smaller THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES...AND ABOVE ALL I HATE YOUR LATHARGIC APPROACH TO DEALING WITH THOSE PROBLEMS!!!

Originally posted by Intelearthling
I can add this: To everyone that hates us REAL Americans: Do you really think I give one damn if you all hate me or not?

Argh!

...

The thing that gets me is that your relate everything that is spoken against your country - as a personal attack on you! I love Americans, Americans
have so much potential, BUT NOT UNDER YOUR CURRENT SYSTEM...

When I say things like I HATE AMERICAN POLICIES... Every Patriotic American takes it as if I hate them...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to kill incocent civilians for Oil, and call it collatoral-damage...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to torture prisoners in Guantannamo Bay until they are tortured guilty...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to become an over-grown parasite on 3rd World Countries...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to be racist against blacks in your country...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to have the highest crime rates in the world...

So your telling me its AMERICAN - to be the most unhealthy First-World country on earth...

I can't do anything but laugh at all the anti-Americanism that this site generates. It's become very silly at the least.

Why is it anti-american to question our government and it's policies?
As I've said before, the similarities between us and pre-WW2 germany are superficial at best. But our government is still pursuing short sighted
goals that are screwing all of us. You don't have to be "anti-american" to see that.

By the way, being god-loving and republican doesn't make you more american than anyone else.

If anything you should be pissed off.

Bush ran in 2000 on smaller government and no nation building.
Now it's 2005 and we're "nation-building" in Iraq, and Federal spending is so bad that we have record deficits. In fact other than being pro-life
and cutting taxes, what has Bush done to deserve the label conservative?

To qoute the immortal Mark Twain,
"I love my country, but I don't have to love it's institutions."

Ghost Soldier, once again you mix valid points with exageration. Some of those things you said are true, but what country do you live in that is so
much better. All governments are self-serving.

You overestimate the rascism in this country, it exists but it as much anti-white as anti-minority. Is there any other country in the world with
affirmative action programs?
You do realize there is more to rascism than black vs. white, perhaps you heard about Rwanda?

Why do you hate capitalism? Our system has been corrupted to favor giant corporate entities, but it can be fixed. Why is communism better?

And we are not the only ones sticking it to third world countries, all first world countries do that. Why are we so much worse.

I can add this: To everyone that hates us REAL Americans: Do you really think I give one damn if you all hate me or not?

Why is it Amerikans have such low self esteem?
Any criticism of your system and suddenly you'll act like we're backing you into a corner. You are not your government and your government is not you!

If you really love your country you should be outraged at what your government is doing.
Patriotism does not mean "blindly support your government no matter what it does."
Love for your country should not mean unconditional love for the government.
You'll need to learn to separate state from the people.
They are not one and the same.
This is where the conditioning comes in that most ppl claim is BS.
If national pride is getting in the way of being critical about the way YOUR country is run, then the government is a dictatorship in Democratic
clothing.

Originally posted by ANOK
Why is it Amerikans have such low self esteem?
Any criticism of your system and suddenly you'll act like we're backing you into a corner.

Please anok I am american and I think much differently than the ones who spout rhetoric about "anti-americanism" and so called "real americans",
just call them conservative or republican american's, they are the only ones who do that.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Please anok I am american and I think much differently than the ones who spout rhetoric about "anti-americanism" and so called "real americans",
just call them conservative or republican american's, they are the only ones who do that.

Well, yeah sorry I didn't mean to lump you all together but you gotta admit you are an exception to the rule. And I've heard that same "you're
being anti-American" from so called liberals also.
Please don't take it personally, that was the real message I was trying to put across.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
You overestimate the rascism in this country, it exists but it as much anti-white as anti-minority. Is there any other country in the world with
affirmative action programs?

I agree that Racism comes from all sides, but I beleive the ball started in White-America's court... But thanks to Malcom X and friends he raised
public awareness and dulled the blade of the KKK etc...

But there is still alot of racism imbedded in America today... More black people turn to a life of crime because people wont hire them, more black
people are found guilty of crimes, more black people are beaten by police officers... This in turn gives black people a negative view of white-men in
authority positions...

Racism, sexism and homophobia are all tools that Capitalists use to exploit the working class, the more segregation their is, the more in-fighting
there is - the less people can see the bigger picture...

Originally posted by LeftBehind
You do realize there is more to rascism than black vs. white, perhaps you heard about Rwanda?

Blacks in America and ESPECIALLY in Australia have been brought up in a system where they feel helpless... I have family friends who have been brought
up by their parents, who basically taught them "Its no use trying because the white-man will just keep you down..." - Which I think is almost
completly true, because black people have been stereotyped as "Gangsters" or in my country as "Abo's"... (NOTE ABO IS AN EXTREMELY RACIST WORD
AND APOLOGISE IN ADVANCE FOR MY USE OF THE TERM) - So people already have a predisposed idea about what a black person is, this is all added to by the
media, education even our parents...

People around America (and all around the world), are not taught to think critically and objectively - instead we are taught to respect
authority...

RWANDA: The Belgians screwed the Tutsi and Hutu for selfish reasons... This is a prime example of a capitalist/imperialist country using racism to
achieve their own ends...

Originally posted by LeftBehind
And we are not the only ones sticking it to third world countries, all first world countries do that. Why are we so much worse.

I am aware that the US is not the sole-perpetrator of these crimes against humanity - however it is the BIGGEST and most POWERFUL of the
perpetrators...

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Why do you hate capitalism? Our system has been corrupted to favor giant corporate entities, but it can be fixed. Why is communism better?

Capitalism IN THEORY is all well and good, because everyone has this part of the mind telling them that - if I slave away long enough I can be the
next Donald Trump - which is infact a myth that is perpetuated by already existing Capitalists so they can have a huge group of people willing to work
to less than nothing...

Capitalism works whereby the Capitalists owns the means of Production (eg: a factory) ... He pays people to work in that factory, for as little as he
can before he has a strike on his hand... Those people slave away in the factory accumulating wealth for the capitalists - and they get a pay check at
the end of the week... Heres an example of how it works...

I could be working in a car factory, making 3 cars a week...
Those cars get sold for $20,000 each
There for $60,000 a week goes to the capitalists
The Capitalists at the end of the week give me $500
So I get $500 while I am making $59,500 a week for someone else...

And bear in mind there could be 100's of workers in this factory with me, and where does all the money go? Some of it goes into materials and
maintainence, the majority goes into Capitalists assets...

Capitalism is a very primitive system...

Hunter/Gatherer -> Slave Labour -> Feudalism -> Capitalism...

Capitalism is basically Feudalism, only the workers are free... Free to work, or starve...

Communism - TRUE COMMUNISM - Is a much more advanced system of economics... Whereby people work where and how they want to, (as opposed to working to
survive - via paycheck)... The wealth is spread instead of accumulated...

When people like Donald Trump look at there account balance it looks something like this... $1,000,000,000,000...
What good does it do society when all those zeros are sitting in a bank account somewhere... Why not use it effectively and for society on a
whole...

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need..."-- Karl Marx

Originally posted by deltaboy
cant compare USA to Nazi Germany since we don't target Jews

You'll keep missing the point. The comparison isn't what the Nazi's did to certain groups of ppl, but the political methods used to control the
population.

Anyway the U.S. is not at the point yet when groups of ppl are rounded up and put in camps. That won't happen until we are at war with most of the
rest of the World. We are at where the Nazi's were in the 30's before World war broke out. We still have that to look forward to.

And no Bush is not Hitler, he's not smart enough. But our government is following the same fascist ideals and methods. Not quite with the same "in
your face" methods because the ruling elite learnt it is better to be more subtle and sneaky, slipping it in here and there with no lube...

[edit on 18/4/2005 by ANOK]

What garbage.

If you actually LOOK at the FACTS you and all you American hating boobs would understand that EUROPE is in fact more like Nazi Germany then the US
is...

It is not 1930... it's more like 1935 in Germany here. The Reichstag fire has already happened; the Enactment Legislation has already been passed;
we've already gone into Czechoslovakia and Poland... we're soon to have global war. I'm sick about it. The country and the world have gone MAD,
I tell you, stark raving MAD.

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