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Oh no I would not hold you to it if one came up like you wanted. But since I know you thats why you sit on my top three unit only preorder list. But heaven forbid you pass one up. I would expect you to grab it. There would be no hard feelings at all. These things are too hard to get to pass one up. And I would feel awefull if the one I ordered for you came back from anno all screwed up. So that is why I keep it open till I get the call and reconfim. I can move on down the line if need be.

But you guys are getting the idea now of what the dealers are dealing with with these? Uncertainty. And speculation. But its all good!

The general consumer expects to have prompt service when paying for it. Both sides are reasonable in their expectations. Maybe AGD could also look into a shorter wait list for those customers who prepay for them.

My complaint is not that you have to wait for one. But that before I shell out $1500.00 on a marker I would really like to see how it works. I'm only play tourney's. Before I bought my Chipley they let me use it for 1/2 a day in Seattle. I have only seen 2 X-Mags on the west coast and have never got to fire one. Sitting at a store and firing air through a marker will not make me buy one. Heck I can cycle a electric spider fast in the store. I love AGD and the product but I wish I could get my hands on one to try a couple of games with. So I know if the marker fits me or not.

Dirty...not to get personal...but you had one on preorder through me....i couldnt contact you and you wouldnt reply to my PMs and emails...so i dropped your Xmag...Coffey ordered one at the same time and his is at Anno right now

You introduce a new gun that costs more than other proven guns and you expect them to sell out the next day?

The Xmag has built up a rep now and more and more people want them. Every review I read says it is simply the best.

Rome wasn't built in.... one day.. or something.

But still not everyone lusts for an Xmag, so.. make more.. sponser more BIG name teams.. THEN people will throw away those Timmys and E-Blades.. people need to SEE that it is the best, not look at pictures and read rumors "oh it chops.. they dont have any range.. they are made from aborted featuses.."

People need to see it in action, you need to win the hearts of the shop owners that all the kids idolize so they will beg mommy and daddy for one of them. It seems no one knows the performace of the E-Mag and Xmag.. to them it's a Classic with an E-Grip and nothing more...

I liked what Tom said.. made total sense.. but the simple fact is.. mags are not in favor. I never have people bash my E-mag, they just go "thats cool" "Neat" "Nice.." and thats about it.. they are set that E-Blades and Timmys are the better guns.. even though they have never picked up an Xmag.. and it's kinda hard to when there isn't any hanging on the wall.

I totally understand what Tom was saying.. it's a catch 22... like he said.. we just need to wait.

Originally posted by AGD AO screaming or them one day translated into a dead item the next…Note to self, “listen to AO but don’t count on everything they say as being true in the big picture”.

This is just the wrong place to listen to for product demand. It is REALLY easy to post an anonymous message on a forum claiming that you just have to have something. That might actually translate into sales. It might not.

Originally posted by AGD So AO I have to come here every day and read the gut wrenching complaints

Tom, you take us to seriously. It’s kind of nice to know that you really care about “our” opinions. Nice for “us” anyway…

Originally posted by Miscue I have to wonder if the desire for the XMag is mostly a style issue... as it has more features but does not improve the overall functionality of the already solid EMag.

I would have to say that is it entirely. You can make an Emag almost as light (if not as light) as an Xmag. I normally don’t care that much and I think the Emag looks good. But I have to admit that the CnC Xmag looks really, really good. That said, I have an Emag.

As someone who is out of work and living in a bad economy.
I feel that the fact that I can not afford an Xmag nor desire one prevents me from criticizing.

Id have to say if just anyone could start a buisiness and make it work, than everyone would be doing it. The fact is most companies fail the first year. Cutting lawns and fixing computers is easier said than done. You can find computers to fix. People will demand service. Getting paid a decent wage is another story.

Tom is just saying what everyone in buisiness has been saying since 1980. That having more stock in the building translates into more overhead for his company. Is that loss or taxable stock? 1000 roller triggers at $10 each would be $10,000 of non movable merchandise.

However, knowing Tom seems like a decent guy, trying to live his dream and coming here reading complaints makes me sad. The number one complaint I read, is that people have problems with Mags get discouraged and sell them. This puts alot of Auto Mags on the market. So Im not sure if they dont want to send them in for service or cant read the technical notes on the valve I just dont know.

The second problem I have read is people are having trouble ordering Xmags. Again I dont know if a deposit is not required and how the waiting list works. It would seem fair to ask for a deposit to get on the waiting list. Since the deposit would cover manufacturing and the rest of the payment would be Toms profit margin.

I dont know. My main problem these days is everyone says get a job. You go out and apply for jobs and hope someone hires you. You just cant get a job. If you have money you can get a degree, or food. You cant really buy a job though. If you have money you can start a buisines but you cant really pay sonmeone to hire you. Unless in the long run you go work for Mary Kay Cosmetics and thats not really cool if your a guy.

From my final perspective though it comes down to Supply and demand. AS long as Tom has less Xmags than people are buying hes okay. If tommorow people stoped Buying Xmags and he was overstocked than he would have a problem.

I must say that I for one am extremely happy to be one of the many proud owners of one of your products. It gives me great pleasure to be able to walk out onto the fields of play and look around at other people's markers and think to myself, "Wow, I own the best marker money can buy!" I look around at other people, sometimes new comers to the sport, sometimes returning veterans and more often than not, one or more of them has a problem with their marker. It gives me an incredibly good feeling to know that I can almost literally chuck my E-mag into the trunk of my car and not worry about anything happening to it.

I am proud, no, honored, that you take the time out of your everyday life to make an appearance on these boards. I know of no other place in paintball where you can talk to the president of the company, as well as other great people from the paintball world, and talk about industry, the sport, and other things.

I have learned from watching my dad run his own business that it can, at times, be very hard to fill orders that are specific to a customers needs. The fact that you do this and go beyond is nothing short of extraoridinary. In closing, I'd like to ask that you keep doing what you're doing, and despite what AO or anyone else may say, do what you think is best for your company, and not that of what the customer feels is necessary.

Is it me or is he really pissed and he's just not trying to blow up on his most loyal customer base. Not that he doesn't have a right to be. I'd be pretty pissed if i bent over backwords to appease everyone and 50% of the time, they were complaining. But it's not like he could single out who they were because that would be unfair. He also coudn't generalize because most of us(the reasonable ones) weren't complaining about it like alot of the others were.

I think Tom Kaye is a man with the most patience i've never met. Or have met. If i were him, i would have sold this forum long ago. I think at one point, AO was nothing but beneficial. Lately, i really believe it's done nothing but hurt him. On the other hand, he was the one trying to get more and more people to come here.

Lastly, I have nothing bot appreciation and respect for Tom Kaye and AGD. They're the one company with sensibility and actually care about their customers to the best of thier abilities. That, however, i think is the biggest problem. Business is business. You spend to much time trying to make everyone happy, and you can't run your business. I truly hope that in the end, it doesn't ruin the only paintball company worth buying from.

I say we automatically put all the posts made by people who **tch and moan about the long wait for X-mags and put them into one single thread so that the moderaters can edit their posts and make them look like impatient
, and ungrateful SOBs.

tom, i needed to ask you. when were the thousands of roller triggers made? all i remember is that one day i came on AO, heard bout em, heard you say you made a few batches, then suddenly they dissapeared. i was very interested in ordering one for my timmy, but i couldnt find it anywhere. i am in no way meaning for this to be a flame, but i was just thinking bout that. hrmm, got any roller triggers lying around?

oh, and anyone looking to buy a great condition tricked out classic timmy? (Seriously! pm)

I have heard alot of what Tom is saying from Steve with Aerostar of Milwaukee (props going out to my dealer) I dont care how long it takes to get my X-mag, because when I get it I know its going to be the best marker I have ever owned, period. Thanks AGD!

I really appreciate you keeping us informed and letting everyone know how the cow ate the cabbage.

I've noticed a lot of gripe threads lately and haven't really understood what it was all about, thank you for the insite as well.

You're doing a great job and I applaud your efforts (and obvious ability to run AGD right!)

Mav
(Loyal AGD Customer and Mag Lover)

BTW I wouldn't be too worried about those X-Mags, I'm hearing the name more often (outside of the AGD circle), and if all goes well they should get the jump in the main populace that you're hoping for. I know your average every day mag already has. Give it time, if it catches in South California, it'll be big soon enough

I work for Apple Computer (hey, I use to work for IBM and them Intel, so I have SOME credit, lol) and before Steve Jobs made his return the company was in the toilet. They had too many product lines and most of the time they got stuck with crap in their warehouses and had to sell at a loss. They then licensed it's OS to other companies.. what happened? They sold faster machines that were cheaper than Apples. Why? Streamline. They had a low, a mid, and a high end system. that was it. No "performa 2 3 556 678 and 4567" and then a completely different line with more shades of grey..

Steve Jobs came back... first thing he did was yank 3rd party licenses, 2nd.. streamline Apple.

Today there is the 4 square. We have a high end Desktop (PowerMac), a low end desktop (iMac), a high end notebook (PowerBook) and a low end notebook (iBook). Then three models for each, and the only difference is options, more ram, faster CPU and thats about it.

AGD... do the same! dump the RT and the E-Mag, make a low and a high and thats it.

Make some sorta ULE Classic, then an Xmag, and from there have color options and accessories.

Am I alone here in thinking that would be a good move? just a suggestion. I'll shut up now and go back to waiting on my front porch in the fetal position for the UPS dude.. (got aFlateline coming )

While I appreciate the fact that Tom comes to the forum board and provides answers and insight as to what goes on at AGD, I still say "thumbs down" to his post. Sorry...but that's my thought. Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure they would), but I believe AGD has been around longer than WDP, correct? So, for whatever reasons WDP has risen to the top of the paintball world...they make a nice marker and they charge for it too. But, you know what else they do? They MAKE them...lots of them. I can walk down to the proshop here in town right now and buy one if I choose to.

I'm not trying to say WDP makes better markers and paintball equipment than AGD, since I personally love AGD products and have for a long time, but they are a good example of obviously doing something right. Now I've heard rumors they're somewhat unethical in their business practices, and frankly I don't care...that's their business. The fact remains they are a good product, and have the top slot as the most widely accepted "best marker in paintball." Seeing's how they've been around less time than AGD, that tells me they've been more agressive with their business practices.

I'm sorry AGD has such a problem with the public outcry for X-Mags, but honestly, what the hell did you expect? I mean, here you have a loyal legion of followers that love you're products...no wait, DEFEND you're products everytime we go to a field and somebody says "Why do you shoot a Mag, that's so old." All we wait for is a chance to have an AGD marker that's truly top-flight, not just supposed to be (hello, classic RT! I've got one, it isn't that hot.) Anyway, finally, our prayers get answered and we get the first glimpse of what could be...a sophisticated, yet simple marker with agressive milling and technology that rivals the top cat's (Angel). Finally, we loyal AGD shooters can get a flagship marker that rewards our loyalty...but then we get told we have to wait six months for one.

Then, we further get told the X-Mag will never be a full production marker, more of just a side show attraction or collectors item. Plus, we even have to go so far as hearing the President of our favorite company say he'd rather not make them in the first place because they're too expensive and whatnot. Well, hello Tom...$1500 is pretty damn expensive to lay out for a marker too but I wouldn't complain if one was available. I'm willing to put the cash on the line for one, why aren't you?

I have said from the beginning in any post I made on this subject, if you're going to be in the game, be in the game. The X is expensive to create? Deal with it. Go get loans, do whatever you gotta do because if you don't, the business end of the paintball world (the one holding all the cards) will call you're bluff and take you to the bank. My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...or, you should have held it in secret until you had a bunch of them. I understand you don't wanna have a ton of them sitting around, then release word of them and have no one buy them, but that's business...risks. The one's you take and one's you don't.

The X would probably be one that would work out for you, but that might never be known since it'll never come out in great numbers. All that will happen is one day down the road you'll say "The cost to produce them got too high so we had to discontinue the idea altogether." Meanwhile, WDP continues to just crank out high end gun after high end gun. With the current strategy as it is, AGD will never enjoy more than a minor share in the overall big business world of paintball. If you guys are comfortable with that, I'm cool with it too. But I know I'd rather see AGD in WDP's place than them, simply because of the customer service and the quality products. Sorry ya'll, I'm not trying to bash AGD, but this is my opinion on the X issue.

Type 2: The "gun whore" (for lack of a better term). The person who wants the latest and greatest thing out there. Not looking for a long term commitment, just wants to be able to say they have owned an Xmag. Will sell or trade it for something else that catches their eye at the drop of a hat.

Props, Mr. Kaye, on stepping up to the plate and answering honestly. Your explanation my not make anyone any happier about the wait but at least we know why now, which is what I wanted to know personally. As for all you guys with your lips planted firmly on Tom's *** in this thread, please knock it off, it's pathetic.

The one thing I think you should stop doing is hypeing things so much so far in advance of their relesse. take the X-mag. AO knew about it like 6 months before it came out. People started to save up for them and get really horny for one. Then when they are rellesed they are told to wait 6 months as they are back orderd. After a while they deside they can get a nice matrix or angle right now with the money the have piled up for an X-mag so they go and buy it. If you had 500 X-mags reddy at realese they would sell like mad. Just work on your timing. Do some test runs, make sure they are perfect then see if theirs a big demmand for them. If their is make a lot THEN reallese them and you will sell more and more people will be happy. When something is first realessed it is all people are talking about. By the time you usualy have somthing in full swing the hype has died down and less people want it.

Re: AGD's Reply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

Tom, I still do not understand why you did not offer the X-mag body for sale seperatly like the ULE bodys. Sell it as an entire gun fine, but at the same time sell it as an upgrade kit to all the guys out here that already have an Emag. I went to Fox to pick up some practice paint and I saw the last X-mag they had. I even put some finger prints on it. It came with a 1450.00 price tag. How many guys really have the money to drop on one in a heartbeat? I would not even consider buying one unless I had already sold my current Emag. At the same time what would be the advantage for me to sell my Emag and buy an Xmag? The only difference between my current Emag and the Xmag is the aluminum valve, the body, and the anti chop eye that we dont need anyway with the level 10. The performance of my gun is no different from the Xmag. All I would get by swithcing guns is a differnt body and a few ounces off the valve. I am not going to take a loss on my current Emag and drop another 1450.00 on pretty much the same gun. I paid 1300.00 for my Red Emag and a 68/3000 Flatline. My team mate DJGruv bought his black stock Emag on Ebay for 700.00 brand new. The X-mag runs 1450.00 alone. I think the Xmag is way over priced. You could buy a new stock Emag right now, install a level 10 and a ULE body on it, and you have almost the same gun as an Xmag for a much cheaper price. I support AGD products, just look at my sig. It is my opinion though that the Xmag is overpriced, is taking way to long to produce, and offers very little in the way of an upgrade to current Emag owners.

3. Xmag is overpriced currently... Take an emag +ule body and you get ~1000 invested... The only thing missing is the ACE... are you saying an ACE + milling costs 500? If so your screwing yourself... Granted since the Supply is smaller than the current demand, its still a good business move to keep them at that price.

4. You took the opinions of the ~20ish people that said they wanted the roller trigger and translated that into: make 1000 kits.. Those 20 only mean AT MOST 20 gaurunteed sales.. It was not a good indication of market support since the people that didnt want one most likely passed the thread up or didnt reply..

5. The reason WDP is much more successful is because they dont sell straight to the consumers... They convice the retailers that the product rocks, and the retailers buy them... Risk is minimized for the intial seller. Their products dont have to be godly, they just have to APPEAR godly and the retailers will invest because they think they will sell...

I know I dont post often I perfer to just read and get all the information that I can. That said I read most if not all the complaining post and all the we worship TK post both have a good point of view and both make valid points. At the same time neither stops to really look at what the others are complaining about or what the others are kissing Toms but over. Tom is only a man trying to run his company and yes he has to take chances. Before he takes a chance he has to consider the PROS and CONS of taking that chance. In the case of the X-Mag he picked a form of middle ground he relased something he did not have to relase at all (being that the design is AGD-E) but he did not make a all out jump into it. Look at it this way you see a lake on a hot day and think that a swim in it could be fun. You could just say nope to dangerous, you pick the middle ground and slowly walk on in, or for those of you who want to take large risks just dive on in. now lets look at what happens the people who pass it up will never know what they missed the person who gets in slowly finds that it real shallow and with jagged rocks everywere and before hes hurt can pull back out the person who dives in finds out the water is too shallow and with many jagged rocks as his head is smashed and neck is broken. The X-Mags cost more than your everyday person is willing to spend. why make tons of $1000+ markers when the majorty of people are still shooting markers that cost less than $200. i for one would have not made a surplus of the X-Mag

Now that everyone has started to form their opinions of me let me just say I am on the pre-order list Via logic paintball and I have already given Logic the money for it when the time comes. I am not going to just jump on the next X-Mag that shows up with no owner because I dont want to screw the dealer I have my order with.

Originally posted by DiRTyBuNNy If you told me tomorrow a store had a blue/black fade X-Mag on the wall (hopefully matte) I'd be calling them all day long trying to get it from them but if I don't know the gun exists that's not my fault. I spoke to you personally regarding Adventure Games and you told me to wait it out, I contacted you again and you told me she cancelled. What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?

I think this is a bit unfair. It is also a bit uninformed about most Real World Paintball Shops. Adventure Games is by far not a small operation when looking at real world paintball shops. And they move a lot of product.

So, you are blaming a marker NOT moving off the shelves on THEM and their inability to “get to the customers that want them”? They don’t sell online, and because they have OVERHEAD, which a good many online stores don’t have (thus can’t compete on prices). So they rely on standard walk in sales, which SELL the other products just fine. They are not in the business to PUSH a product, but to sell products that sell.

My point is that you can’t turn around and blame a dealer for not trying to scour the earth for someone to buy their products when they already have plenty of customers on hand buying products from their shops. When I want a product, I usually have to do some research MYSELF and see who has what. And never have I been contacted by a muffler shop, tire shop, paint shop, etc. for a product that I might have wanted to buy. LOL SHAME ON THEM! Heck, you should see the hoops I go through to buy my supplies for MY products.

I will say however, that Cynthia at Adventure Games did post about the X-Mags being available on their old forum (not there now, they have a new forum and she has not posted all sales and stuff on it yet)…. And guess what? No one even cared. I would say that if you offer the product a spot on your wall, and post it on your site or online forum, THAT is doing all a Dealer should have to do. And if you can’t move the product after doing that, it is up to the dealer to either carry the product in large numbers, small numbers, or not at all.

This is not a bash on the X-Mag or any other product, but a simple business statement. It can be applied to any product and be equally correct. There are many reasons a product may or may not move, and many times it has nothing to do with getting the word out, or the product being a “good” one or not. And Adventure Games is not an anti-mag place… in fact they are PRO Mag. But if a product is not selling…. You get the idea.

I have a feeling that once the X-Mags get out in larger numbers, they will create their own interest, and help increase their sales. And the wave will come back…. The spring buying wave was taken by the other companies, but another will be coming along. And hopefully AGD will be there ready to catch it.

The long waits are from the ridiculous colors customers are requesting. Make 'em like Henry Ford did....You can have any color you want as long as it's black!
You get the kids with thier "I want it purple to pink fade with smiley faces all over" finish and yeah it's gonna take time, lot's of time.
I work in the firearms industry, if you want custom, take it to a custom shop.
You make a killer product Tom, you just agonize over what some people think too much. Yeah, satisfy the customer, just don't go broke over it.

Man I love it when tom comes up and says what he feels, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside!

Quit your complaining, I waited for mine and it is worth the wait!! You will not be disapointed, trust me, I know.

Plus what are you going to get in return, an Angel (only thing that might compare), a Timmy (suck, just a souped up spyder), an impulse (heck twice the height of a mag), or a Ebladed cocker (still got to time the dang thing, and that is a pain in the arse), so what would you get to replace it.

Nothing is can replace the quality and reliability you get with the X-mag.

Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
people clamouring for that same product,
(and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.

Want to bet that Tom's offhanded remark about that one
maker doesn't result in it's sale by the end of the week.

Oh and Tom, lay of the tiresome anti-Matrix remarks it
does nothing for your credability.(Happy mag and Matrix owner)