1. A tank gets 0.6 miles per gallon2. North Korea produces 0.0 billion barrels of oil per day3. China exports 8,432 bbl/day to North Korea

I can't say its too far fetched that the NKPA has squirrled a good chunk of that away for a rainy day invasion. Oil is important, but their best military minds likely have it all planned out on how they can re-take the peninsula and overrun the imperialist oil supplies.

Yes, I know its far-fetched, much like, say, sending the bulk of Fourth Panzer Army off to the Caucasus to grab Stalin's oil supplies.

To sum up: they probably can't shoot us at all. Even if everything goes perfectly and won't shoot it down and the missile lands on target AND the bomb goes off...it will probably be less than 1/2 the yield of the Hiroshima bomb. For which we would immediately turn their whole country into a self-illuminating glass parking lot. Or invade, burn their palace down around their ears, and hang every man we found. Either way, it would be the total destruction of both their regime and their state, in return for...not all that much.

And if every nation thought rationally before going to war, there would be a whole heck of a lot more humans on this dirtball. Bush, Cheney, and Blair don't try occupying Iraq on the cheap. Saddam doesn't invade Kuwait. Japan doesn't bomb Pearl Harbor. Hitler doesn't invade Russia. Austria-Hungary doesn't declare war on Serbia.

It makes all the sense in the world for Best Korea not to start a war. However, the only way out of this crisis is by halting their nuclear weapons program. They pushed their luck again thinking that China would have their back and Worst Korea and Japan would panic and tell America to back off. Almost the exact opposite has happened. If they back down now, what happens in the barracks of Pyongyang and across the starving fields of the north?

one-in-the-chamber:I have a question which has nothing to do with the thread. how many people visit the comment section of fark with absolutely nothing witty or thought provoking. but feel like they contribute, and can feel superior by grammer checking people? "hey dumba** you meant " too" as in also, not to as in "to" as in a destination". this also goes for the people who insist on proving to the world they graduated from college. six paragraphs on string theory when nobody asked. it's not going to make cutting that check for the student loan anymore worthwhile

Bravo, It could have not been said better. /its really about time that idea gets hammered home.

UnspokenVoice:dk47: fireclown: netweavr: Japan is forbidden from doing shiat without getting permission from the US. Guess what the US gave them today...

I was of the belief that anti-missile stuff was within the purview of the Japanese Defense Force. If not, the damned well should be. At any rate, I hope they keep their shiat together and don't do anything hasty. Just shoot the damned thing down and show Kim what's what.

Also, if there are any Korean speakers out there, what does "dong" mean in Korean? Can we get word to the NK missile program that the US just can't take missiles named "somethingsomethingDONG" seriously?

We have 15 Aegis Destroyers off their coast. Whatever they shoot will barely make it out of their airspace.

And can we please forget the old "Seoul will get seriously farked up" storyline? No, no chance.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but I don't think we can reliably shoot down artillery shells which is the main danger for Seoul. The rockets, which we can sometimes shoot down, are for more distant targets while Seoul is "nicely" within artillery range.

Much of that artillery is from the 40s and 50s. Ditto the shells, with some from the 60s. Chances of duds and breech fires will be high. Hell, some of the ammo may be so unstable it will detonate when being handled. Finally, if the artillery starts up there will be a constant steady attrition of them from our side. All that being said, I am sure that there would be much destruction in Seoul.

assalon5:one-in-the-chamber: I have a question which has nothing to do with the thread. How many people visit the comment section of Fark with absolutely nothing witty or thought provoking to saybut feel like they can contribute and feel superior by grammar checking people?

"Hey dumba**, you meant "too" as in "also" not "too" as in "to" as in a destination.

This also goes for the people who insist on proving to the world they graduated from college writing six paragraphs on string theory when nobody asked. It's not going to make cutting that check for the student loan anymore worthwhile.

Bravo, It could have not been said better. /its really about time that idea gets hammered home.

Actually it could have been, there was a lot wrong with his post. I took the liberty of fixing it, but it wasn't easy given what I had to work with.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy:Much of that artillery is from the 40s and 50s. Ditto the shells, with some from the 60s. Chances of duds and breech fires will be high. Hell, some of the ammo may be so unstable it will detonate when being handled. Finally, if the artillery starts up there will be a constant steady attrition of them from our side. All that being said, I am sure that there would be much destruction in Seoul.

The link that I gave above estimates ~30k civilian deaths total if the DPRK ignores military targets and concentrates all of it's artillery on Seoul instead. Most of that in the first three hours or so. Not good of course but not as bad as a "Sea of fire" either considering that that's a small percentage of the total population there.

teenage mutant ninja rapist:Walker: Japan ain't gonna do sh*t. North Korea has launched missiles over them before and they didn't do sh*t.

Read up on japanese history. Sure theyve been timid since ww2. But feel free to poke that tifer with a stick.Ever hear of the rape of nanking. Best korea goes picking that fight and I wouldnt be surprised to hear of the rape of pyongyang.

dont fark with those people. Even a rabid wolverine is harmless when sleeping. You poke it with a stick your taking your chances

Here's the thing about Japan. The culture and the people were molded by 600 virtually continuous years of warfare between various warlords. The peasants survived only by the grace and sufferance of the Samurai and the nobility, and obedience to people with weapons became the cultural norm. Think about that for a minute. 600 years.

Would it really be possible for one defeat in a world war and two small nukes to snuff that heritage out?

Although frankly, if they REALLY want to hurt the US...aim at Silicon Valley. You take out Apple, Google, Yahoo, Cisco, Oracle, and all the other brains living and working there, and you've set us back 25 - 30 years. That actually scares me more than them hitting LA.

Eh. Not everything revolves around Palo Alto and San Jose. There are various other high speed research centers in Virginia, North Carolina, Texas...that will pick up the load to keep things running. Lots of universities kicking out new geniuses too.

scubamage:I can't help but wonder if this is a feint to try and restructure their country by providing a media-friendly "blaze of glory" moment. Their officials know that with their current economy and standard of living, they aren't going to go anywhere but more downhill. Their isolationism has strangled them. Un is smart enough to know that he can't win and that their current system of government is unsustainable, but can't speak out because of the old guard in the military and older party members. So, he is driving their country into a battle they can't possibly win so their country is forcefully rebuilt and their people can thrive - the ones that live through it anyway.

Or, they have a dagger hidden at our back somewhere and we haven't figured out where. Those are the two scenarios I can think of.

Cyber attack and a high altitude EMP nuke? Maybe a couple of hundred English-speaking business-suited armed commandos landing in Seattle and disbursing throughout the country via bus and rail?

Madbassist1:Just Another OC Homeless Guy: AdolfOliverPanties: I plan on moving to Hawaii in a few years. I personally give my blessing to wipe NK off the map if it's continued existence would screw up my new home.

I'm constantly amazed at the sociopathic self-centeredness of Fark's lefties. So you would trade the lives of 20+ million people for a nice pad in Hawaii?

AdolfOliverPanties: hubiestubert: I am more and more convinced that North Korea is really hoping for war, so that they can get rebuilt by the West. It takes them out of the Chinese pocket, it keeps the Russians out of their hair, and afterwards, Little Kim can be one of the cool kids at the UN table. At least one of the ones who got out of the dictator for life game, and retires someplace warm, with a lot of security paid for on someone else's dime...

Not a bad result for the little prick, if it works out exactly as he hopes. It won't though. Being rebuilt by the west is one thing, but that country is a barren wasteland, and not because of the Kim Jong family. They can't grow anything. They can't produce anything but weapons. Sadly, they are very good at that. We can't go in and rebuild and turn them into a thriving economy based on agriculture or business. They have shiat for natural resources.

Idiot answering an idiot.

I'm also constantly amazed at the profound ignorance of Fark's lefties.

God help the world if you morons ever run things.

I'm constantly amazed at people who are hard right being so quick to attack statements that are obviously parody, satire and hyperbole. Oh wait, no I'm not. There's three types of hard right people on FARK. Idiots, trolls, and idiots who are trolls.

Ummmm...... you haven't been paying attention. (Hint: I'm not a right winger.)

Just Another OC Homeless Guy:scubamage: I can't help but wonder if this is a feint to try and restructure their country by providing a media-friendly "blaze of glory" moment. Their officials know that with their current economy and standard of living, they aren't going to go anywhere but more downhill. Their isolationism has strangled them. Un is smart enough to know that he can't win and that their current system of government is unsustainable, but can't speak out because of the old guard in the military and older party members. So, he is driving their country into a battle they can't possibly win so their country is forcefully rebuilt and their people can thrive - the ones that live through it anyway.

Or, they have a dagger hidden at our back somewhere and we haven't figured out where. Those are the two scenarios I can think of.

Cyber attack and a high altitude EMP nuke? Maybe a couple of hundred English-speaking business-suited armed commandos landing in Seattle and disbursing throughout the country via bus and rail?

The whole thing is ludicrous, but this is the part that really has me rolling.

It's fairly easy for SK to pick up infiltrators and spies, due to how badly out of date they're dressed and how they gawk and stare at the most mundane of things. Like a grocery store.

So, the concept of English speaking NKorean commandos sneaking into America is enough to have me giggling like I'm high.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy:Madbassist1: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: AdolfOliverPanties: I plan on moving to Hawaii in a few years. I personally give my blessing to wipe NK off the map if it's continued existence would screw up my new home.

I'm constantly amazed at the sociopathic self-centeredness of Fark's lefties. So you would trade the lives of 20+ million people for a nice pad in Hawaii?

AdolfOliverPanties: hubiestubert: I am more and more convinced that North Korea is really hoping for war, so that they can get rebuilt by the West. It takes them out of the Chinese pocket, it keeps the Russians out of their hair, and afterwards, Little Kim can be one of the cool kids at the UN table. At least one of the ones who got out of the dictator for life game, and retires someplace warm, with a lot of security paid for on someone else's dime...

Not a bad result for the little prick, if it works out exactly as he hopes. It won't though. Being rebuilt by the west is one thing, but that country is a barren wasteland, and not because of the Kim Jong family. They can't grow anything. They can't produce anything but weapons. Sadly, they are very good at that. We can't go in and rebuild and turn them into a thriving economy based on agriculture or business. They have shiat for natural resources.

Idiot answering an idiot.

I'm also constantly amazed at the profound ignorance of Fark's lefties.

God help the world if you morons ever run things.

I'm constantly amazed at people who are hard right being so quick to attack statements that are obviously parody, satire and hyperbole. Oh wait, no I'm not. There's three types of hard right people on FARK. Idiots, trolls, and idiots who are trolls.

Ummmm...... you haven't been paying attention. (Hint: I'm not a right winger.)

orclover:lepton68: Wouldn't it be much easier to get the nuke closer to the USA and launch it from there? Hide it in a boat and sail toward our coast. Or probably easier, take the bomb, smuggle it into Canada then into the US and pick whatever city you want to destroy. Not trivial but easier than designing a very long range missile..

Here is why you can sleep tight knowing that it will never happen.Nukes tend to give out a bit of radiation. Ok scratch that, a farkTON of radiation. Not even lethal levels necessarily but for geiger counters and other detecters a nuke is a giant glowing beacon saying "LOOK HERE!". Want to know how sensitive the detecters are along the borders? If you get radiation treatment, they have to give you a special card to show at the border when you inevitably get pulled over because all the detecters light up when you get within blocks of them. They aren't just detecting radiation at the checkpoints, hell they arent just detecting radiation at the borders. If a dirty bomb could have been snuck into the country, they would already have lit one off.

A whole world full of crap to worry about, somebody sneaking in a nuke does not belong on that list however.

My only thought about this scenario is that it could be pulled off with a little submarine.Water would block the radiation sensors (hell, they'd probably only need 2 atm.) and all they would have to do is not get spotted by our subs. Do it the same way that drug runners have recently been doing it to smuggle across our borders and then set it off Inside the San Francisco Bay near the surface. All the water that ends up falling would be intensely radioactive and would screw things up royally in the bay area.

Otherwise I agree with you, not feasible. Not to mention that all boat traffic leaving the Korean peninsula is probably being monitored by our Navy and satellites.

Uchiha_Cycliste:My only thought about this scenario is that it could be pulled off with a little submarine.

No. 6k (or more if they leave from the west coast of Best Korea) miles across the open ocean where the navy has SONAR arrays that cover pretty much every square mile means that they would be heard snorkeling long before they got here and either be sunk or turned back home after being forced to surface. The trip one way would also be more than 50 days in duration using their boats and those boats probably can't carry enough food and water to last that long. The Gulf of Mexico is not the Pacific.

Radioactive Ass:Uchiha_Cycliste: My only thought about this scenario is that it could be pulled off with a little submarine.

No. 6k (or more if they leave from the west coast of Best Korea) miles across the open ocean where the navy has SONAR arrays that cover pretty much every square mile means that they would be heard snorkeling long before they got here and either be sunk or turned back home after being forced to surface. The trip one way would also be more than 50 days in duration using their boats and those boats probably can't carry enough food and water to last that long. The Gulf of Mexico is not the Pacific.

Psylence:hardinparamedic: Psylence: Having watched both series (fine, all 6) I can say that Robotech IS better. Whoever stitched those 3 together for America did a fantastic job. (Carl Macek?)Macross 2 sucked.

You're the worst monster ever for saying that. Worse than Hitler. Robotech is a disgusting abomination that should have suffered a late term, partial birth abortion.

fireclown:Also, if there are any Korean speakers out there, what does "dong" mean in Korean? Can we get word to the NK missile program that the US just can't take missiles named "somethingsomethingDONG" seriously?

I don't know but I get very inappropriate giggles when I see the names of dong class missiles. And I wish the general media would use the nomenclature more often.

"Today North Korea erected two Dongs on the eastern coast..."

"The Dong Missiles are fueled and ready to go. But where?"

"North Korea attempted to launch one of it's Dongs today over the Sea of Japan but it was quickly shot down and turned into a hentai special."

This is all nonsense. The US military has had a 1875 gigawatt laser, powered by a small nuclear reactor NASA was originally going to use to study Phobos, stuck inside the ESPN satellite since 2004. As long as that missile is stuck on the launchpad out in the open for more than 4 minutes, it's just going to explode on the launch pad. Best Koreans won't know what happened, and you all will have to do without the sports channel for a short period of time.

A Romeo (which they do have several of) is capable of making the trip (10k mile range IIRC) however they are some noisy farks when snorkeling (and we already know what to listen for, they are very old) which is why I said what I said. Their other boats aren't designed for blue water that I'm aware of and the Pacific is our playground. Nothing with a motor gets past the international dateline heading west that we don't at least take some small notice of outside of perhaps some of the newest Russian (nuclear) boats that are intentionally playing quiet (apparently they finally figured out how to make them quieter right as the Cold War ended).

Diesel electrics are great for coastal brown waters because they can take advantage of the inherently bad SONAR conditions found there but once they hit the open ocean they are our biatches should we decide to make them so.

Radioactive Ass:Uchiha_Cycliste: My only thought about this scenario is that it could be pulled off with a little submarine.

No. 6k (or more if they leave from the west coast of Best Korea) miles across the open ocean where the navy has SONAR arrays that cover pretty much every square mile means that they would be heard snorkeling long before they got here and either be sunk or turned back home after being forced to surface. The trip one way would also be more than 50 days in duration using their boats and those boats probably can't carry enough food and water to last that long. The Gulf of Mexico is not the Pacific.

I hadn't considered the sonar. Sonar aside, if they modified their sub to be all battery except for the living space for 2 goons; turn 90% of the space into big batteries and O2 tanks and hope they don't have to snorkel before the bay, is it still impossible? I honestly don't know. IIRC Blind man's bluff said something like the subs can stay submerged for weeks or even months if necessary, right?

Evil High Priest:Related question: Why do we assume that all of their hardware is 30-40 years old? Why wouldn't they have been buying relatively new goodies from China for the last few decades?

1. Well, we have these things called satellites. They fly really high and take really good pictures. We also have these things called radars, which let us know what's in the air up there. When we've got no indications that they have any new modern weapons, it's pretty strong indication they don't have a lot of combat-ready advanced weapons systems.

2. China has been fed up with Best Korea's bullshiat for some time, and even if the PRC was feeling like selling them up-to-date weapons, Best Korea hasn't even had the money to buy food and fuel from anybody in almost 20 years, much less high-end weapons systems.

3. If the DPRK had advanced weapons, now would be the time to show them off, to let the world know they are a mighty threat and that they are serious. It would let Kim Jong Donut show off to his people and show the might of Juche. We fly B-2's and F-22's by there to show off what we can do. What does NK do? They show lots of soldiers marching in tight formation and Lil' Kim being lead around by Generals in big funny hats.

Radioactive Ass:Infernalist: To say nothing of the fact that NK only has diesel subs.

A Romeo (which they do have several of) is capable of making the trip (10k mile range IIRC) however they are some noisy farks when snorkeling (and we already know what to listen for, they are very old) which is why I said what I said. Their other boats aren't designed for blue water that I'm aware of and the Pacific is our playground. Nothing with a motor gets past the international dateline heading west that we don't at least take some small notice of outside of perhaps some of the newest Russian (nuclear) boats that are intentionally playing quiet (apparently they finally figured out how to make them quieter right as the Cold War ended).

Diesel electrics are great for coastal brown waters because they can take advantage of the inherently bad SONAR conditions found there but once they hit the open ocean they are our biatches should we decide to make them so.

And none of this takes into consideration the sheer impossibility of NK shipping their only deterrent out of country on a suicide mission.

Creating fissionable material takes a 'long' time if you're NK, and they just tested a nuke not too many months ago. Odds are, they don't even have a device capable at this time.

Evil High Priest:Thanks. So, according to this jpeg, they have nothing that could hit Seoul? My propaganda tuner must be broken.

Meh. It happens. That was the common public view until a few years ago.

Related question: Why do we assume that all of their hardware is 30-40 years old? Why wouldn't they have been buying relatively new goodies from China for the last few decades?

If you read the link it goes into that. They might have some Chinese tech in their missiles and MRLS (the red range fans in the image that I linked to) but there's been no indication that they have done the same with their artillery, tanks or other tube based systems. It's hard to judge things when you are dealing with such a closed society, we had the same issue with the former USSR during the Cold War so we tended to over-estimate their capabilities when making plans just to be on the safe side.

Cytokine Storm:assalon5: one-in-the-chamber: I have a question which has nothing to do with the thread. How many people visit the comment section of Fark with absolutely nothing witty or thought provoking to saybut feel like they can contribute and feel superior by grammar checking people?

"Hey dumba**, you meant "too" as in "also" not "too" as in "to" as in a destination.

This also goes for the people who insist on proving to the world they graduated from college writing six paragraphs on string theory when nobody asked. It's not going to make cutting that check for the student loan anymore worthwhile.

Bravo, It could have not been said better. /its really about time that idea gets hammered home.

Actually it could have been, there was a lot wrong with his post. I took the liberty of fixing it, but it wasn't easy given what I had to work with.

Silverstaff:Evil High Priest: Related question: Why do we assume that all of their hardware is 30-40 years old? Why wouldn't they have been buying relatively new goodies from China for the last few decades?

1. Well, we have these things called satellites. They fly really high and take really good pictures. We also have these things called radars, which let us know what's in the air up there. When we've got no indications that they have any new modern weapons, it's pretty strong indication they don't have a lot of combat-ready advanced weapons systems.

2. China has been fed up with Best Korea's bullshiat for some time, and even if the PRC was feeling like selling them up-to-date weapons, Best Korea hasn't even had the money to buy food and fuel from anybody in almost 20 years, much less high-end weapons systems.

3. If the DPRK had advanced weapons, now would be the time to show them off, to let the world know they are a mighty threat and that they are serious. It would let Kim Jong Donut show off to his people and show the might of Juche. We fly B-2's and F-22's by there to show off what we can do. What does NK do? They show lots of soldiers marching in tight formation and Lil' Kim being lead around by Generals in big funny hats.

Heh, every time I see Juche I think of shin angyo onshi. Good read (read it Sunday)

Uchiha_Cycliste:Radioactive Ass: Uchiha_Cycliste: My only thought about this scenario is that it could be pulled off with a little submarine.

No. 6k (or more if they leave from the west coast of Best Korea) miles across the open ocean where the navy has SONAR arrays that cover pretty much every square mile means that they would be heard snorkeling long before they got here and either be sunk or turned back home after being forced to surface. The trip one way would also be more than 50 days in duration using their boats and those boats probably can't carry enough food and water to last that long. The Gulf of Mexico is not the Pacific.

I hadn't considered the sonar. Sonar aside, if they modified their sub to be all battery except for the living space for 2 goons; turn 90% of the space into big batteries and O2 tanks and hope they don't have to snorkel before the bay, is it still impossible? I honestly don't know. IIRC Blind man's bluff said something like the subs can stay submerged for weeks or even months if necessary, right?

Batteries are farking heavy. I mean really farking heavy. You can't simply add enough to make that much of a difference. Maybe... and I do mean maybe, you could double the batteries if you stripped out enough weight. and go 100 miles before snorkeling instead of 50 miles.

As far as staying submerged, if you read that book then you read in one of the first chapters where a US diesel boat was forced to surface by a Soviet ship in the western Pacific. That incident was one of the reasons why the USN went all nuclear submarines. Those (nuclear) boats can and do stay down for months at a time and can make their own O2 (at a tremendous cost in electricity, which they have an abundance of).