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Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Yep. Phalanx 10 has a weight of 25, and most chars have a "grace period" extra weight of 30 or more (in addition to the 200 visible on screen).

Yeah, and the newest characters don't really have much. It's weird pulling out a Turian legionaire and seeing she has +190% with the avenger!

Which is why it's Ultra-Rare and the other two are Rare.

Partially. The collector SMG regenerates ammo. Not like the particle rifle but damn near instantly. By feathering the trigger evenly, it becomes a five-round burst gun that can shoot for a solid three minutes, more than even the geth SMG. And it's listed as being good against armor, but I have yet to see any numbers or notice anything.

Yeah, they'd be wrong about Vorcha being tanks. The problem is, they see the red health bar filling back up and think "I AM INVINCIBLE".

That depends. I have quite literally taken a shower in the flames of three pyros and come out perfectly fine. The pyros themselves did not. The trick is to build your stacks in the early game and try to keep the ball rollin', an to drop a heavy melee every now and then to stagger a jerk.

But without health regen spec and without getting those early kills, you're doomed. It's the vorcha version of when you're desperately trying to biotic charge someone and your allies keep killing your target. No barrier. All pain.

Originally Posted by Zevox

I don't think that's quite the case. Most SMGs are that light. In fact, it's slightly heavier than the Geth Plasma (rare), Tempest, and Locust (both uncommon), and a little lighter than the Hornet (rare).

The hornet is heavy?
Must be the rank 1 rank 10 discrepancy.

Collector SMG is pretty neat though.

Oh, and you shouldn't dismiss the original Human characters so easily. The Sentinel may be redundant with the Asari Adept, but most of them can stand on their own. The Human Adept works well enough now that shockwave and singularity have had some buffs, the Human Engineer is actually quite good now that he can set off fire bursts with Incinerate -> Overload, and the Human Vanguard is of course awesome (Charge, Nova, Charge, Nova, Charge, Nova - wait, we've run out of enemies already? ).

Zevox

It's really not tat redundant. The human sentinel is stronger than the Asari adept at the cost of .15s casting time all around. That's almost a fifth of a second for a full third boost to damage on both powers and an appreciable reduction of damage taken. The "loss" of efficiency is sufficiently negligible. Even considering the idea of forsaking the class passive, relying purely on detonations for damage and using those points in fitness the human sentinel comes out ahead, with a large enough boost to weapon damage to be the difference between dropping a prime in two detonations and three. Along with now double the survivability of the Asari.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Not really, but it's slightly heavier than the Collector SMG (10% more impact on cooldowns at any given rank), according to the numbers on that character creator site.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

It's really not tat redundant. The human sentinel is stronger than the Asari adept at the cost of .15s casting time all around. That's almost a fifth of a second for a full third boost to damage on both powers and an appreciable reduction of damage taken. The "loss" of efficiency is sufficiently negligible. Even considering the idea of forsaking the class passive, relying purely on detonations for damage and using those points in fitness the human sentinel comes out ahead, with a large enough boost to weapon damage to be the difference between dropping a prime in two detonations and three. Along with now double the survivability of the Asari.

By redundant, I simply mean that they're sufficiently similar that their main tactic in any given build will most likely be the same - warp/throw. You can argue which is superior if you wish (personally I'll take Stasis over Tech Armor, especially since it's the best answer to Phantoms in the entire game), but they're so similar that they do end up redundant with each other unless you specifically set out to build one without the obvious warp/throw tactic.

Speaking of, I actually tried the suggestion I got a few days ago for that. My conclusion was basically that I really should not try to do a close-combat, shotgun-focused build on anything without Biotic Charge, or some other means of restoring its shields. That was probably my worst performance in a game ever.

Zevox

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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

I find sufficient granularity that it's not redundant. Other than "causes explosions" there's only the overlap of usin the same powers. One is slightly slower with half again as much output, the other can potentially freeze specific targets and has less health. One can roll, and take a punch, the other can slide fast and strike an area upon rising but has less resiliency.

Saying that because they both cause detonations with warp and throw makes them redundant is along the lines of saying the Justcar, fury, and web paladin are redundant. They all cause explosions with their powers.

On stasis, I've found it mostly a waste of time on a detonator build. Literally and figuratively. The best thing for phantoms is killin them. A power which stops them + a power which kills them, at my level of operation, is less lethal than a power which kills them + a power which kills them. But the only time I've gotten any use out of stasis that didn't compete with other (better, often) aspects of the build is with the volus adept. So variance on mileage and all.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I find sufficient granularity that it's not redundant. Other than "causes explosions" there's only the overlap of usin the same powers.

Precisely. There are two things which determine what any given character can do in this game: race and powers. Having two powers be the same creates substantial overlap, especially when those powers alone create your main form of offense. Heck, that was a substantial criticism many of us had of the second DLC's classes, was it not? Each set of two differed in only one power, which was a problem particularly for the Vorcha, who didn't even get a major class-defining power like Charge or Cloak.

And Humans and Asari racially aren't that different - Asari get their biotic dash where Humans get a roll, but the difference there is only one of speed and the slight shield use on the Asari's, and the only other difference is the Asari's slow AoE heavy melee, which an Adept will hardly use. They have the same health and shields, and no particularly unusual traits.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

On stasis, I've found it mostly a waste of time on a detonator build. Literally and figuratively. The best thing for phantoms is killin them. A power which stops them + a power which kills them, at my level of operation, is less lethal than a power which kills them + a power which kills them.

But it's substantially more lethal than a power which does nothing at all, which is usually the case with Phantoms and their power-immunity barrier, which they always seem to put up on reaction to the first power thrown at them, but which they can't use in reaction to Stasis. That, plus their small size and agility making them harder to kill with guns than most other enemies, is what makes Phantoms so difficult to deal with in the first place.

Zevox

Last edited by Zevox; 2012-11-05 at 11:47 PM.

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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Zevox

Precisely. There are two things which determine what any given character can do in this game: race and powers. Having two powers be the same creates substantial overlap, especially when those powers alone create your main form of offense. Heck, that was a substantial criticism many of us had of the second DLC's classes, was it not? Each set of two differed in only one power, which was a problem particularly for the Vorcha, who didn't even get a major class-defining power like Charge or Cloak.

And Humans and Asari racially aren't that different - Asari get their biotic dash where Humans get a roll, but the difference there is only one of speed and the slight shield use on the Asari's, and the only other difference is the Asari's slow AoE heavy melee, which an Adept will hardly use. They have the same health and shields, and no particularly unusual traits.

But it's substantially more lethal than a power which does nothing at all, which is usually the case with Phantoms and their power-immunity barrier, which they always seem to put up on reaction to the first power thrown at them, but which they can't use in reaction to Stasis. That, plus their small size and agility making them harder to kill with guns than most other enemies, is what makes Phantoms so difficult to deal with in the first place.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Zevox

Precisely. There are two things which determine what any given character can do in this game: race and powers. Having two powers be the same creates substantial overlap, especially when those powers alone create your main form of offense. Heck, that was a substantial criticism many of us had of the second DLC's classes, was it not? Each set of two differed in only one power, which was a problem particularly for the Vorcha, who didn't even get a major class-defining power like Charge or Cloak.

Er, not quite. See, there is sufficient difference between warp trees when you factor in tech armor, and sufficient difference in throw trees, that this cannot hold. It's entirely possible to ignore your assertion f having to use a non-detonation build, use warp and throw, and still have viable differences.

The language there is unclear, so I'll repeat; it is entirely possible to have large differences in playstyle with a warp/throw biotic based off of those two powers alone. The difference is even greater with tech armor added. And even greater with tech armor versus stasis a consideration. There is very little "large overlap" unless you're unwilling to look at alternates.

And every vorcha does have a defining power: blood lust. They don't get a class specific power and a racial specific power, sure. The geth, the Krogan, the Phoenix, the batarians all do though. The trouble with the expansion was it looked boring, up until people tried it out.

But again, there is sufficient difference steepen a phoenix adept and Phoenix vanguard that if they play similar, it's your fault not the class'.

And Humans and Asari racially aren't that different - Asari get their biotic dash where Humans get a roll, but the difference there is only one of speed and the slight shield use on the Asari's, and the only other difference is the Asari's slow AoE heavy melee, which an Adept will hardly use. They have the same health and shields, and no particularly unusual traits.

The roll provides unparalleled mobility whn going from cove to cover and presenting a smaller target; the dash has a higher chance of juking an enemy lock and avoids stream fire better. They are similar in that they are both dodges, but they have separate uses. As for Asari heavy melee, it's almost standard. everyone uses it. When you're down, and revived, it's free and clears the area. The human doesn't have that at all. And Justicars have superior shielding, beating out humans by 20%.

But it's substantially more lethal than a power which does nothing at all, which is usually the case with Phantoms and their power-immunity barrier, which they always seem to put up on reaction to the first power thrown at them, but which they can't use in reaction to Stasis. That, plus their small size and agility making them harder to kill with guns than most other enemies, is what makes Phantoms so difficult to deal with in the first place.

Zevox

I agree a hit is more lethal than a miss, but I do not agree this makes stasis better than warp. Shoot the phantom. She will flip. Throw warp during the flip. Either A) it hits her and she is screwed or B) she will stand stock-still for five seconds while you shoot her face. Phantoms have very low health. Not as low as a nemesis, but still pretty bad. Sufficient that if they have low barriers a melee attack can kill them. And they always present a wide (if low) profile, with a steady movement pattern. And their head is always conveniently a little below where the targeting reticle naturally sits.

That's not hard to shoot. That's a headshot victim.

I've beleaguered my point enough though.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Well, I finally got another of the new classes. The Batarian Brawler - naturally, the one among those released so far I was least interested in (well, besides the Turian Ghost, but I already have that too). Guess tomorrow I get to find out whether I can make Lash worthwhile on a Vanguard, or whether I'll be letting the Batarian sit unused.

Originally Posted by Xondoure

That's why you toss a throw at them before you try warp.

Which will just get them to put their barrier up, same as if you thew warp. At which point powers other than Stasis (and maybe others I'm unaware of, but Stasis is the only one I've seen beat their barrier firsthand) are useless on them until the barrier runs out - and they can often just put it back up should you wait it out.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Er, not quite. See, there is sufficient difference between warp trees when you factor in tech armor, and sufficient difference in throw trees, that this cannot hold. It's entirely possible to ignore your assertion f having to use a non-detonation build, use warp and throw, and still have viable differences.

The language there is unclear, so I'll repeat; it is entirely possible to have large differences in playstyle with a warp/throw biotic based off of those two powers alone.

Okay, you're going to have to explain that one, because I truly do not see how it makes the least bit of sense.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

And every vorcha does have a defining power: blood lust.

Which is a power that both share, not one that makes them different from one another. Which feeds right back into what I said. The class-defining powers Charge and Cloak helped the Ex-Cerberus and Male Quarian characters feel different despite the two power overlap. The Vorcha didn't get any such major difference, instead just trading a Carnage for a grenade - neither of which really synergize with their other powers.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I agree a hit is more lethal than a miss, but I do not agree this makes stasis better than warp. Shoot the phantom. She will flip. Throw warp during the flip. Either A) it hits her and she is screwed or B) she will stand stock-still for five seconds while you shoot her face. Phantoms have very low health. Not as low as a nemesis, but still pretty bad. Sufficient that if they have low barriers a melee attack can kill them. And they always present a wide (if low) profile, with a steady movement pattern. And their head is always conveniently a little below where the targeting reticle naturally sits.

That's not hard to shoot. That's a headshot victim.

I've beleaguered my point enough though.

You're much better at aiming than I am if you can consistently headshot a Phantom, even when they're stopped briefly to put up their shield. I can't hit them half the time even when they do that, simply because they're so damn thin that half of my shots pass between their arm and their body, or go over their shoulder, or the like. Trying to headshot them would be an exercise in total futility for me. And they do not fall quickly to regular shooting, at least not from any weapon I use.

So for me, Stasis is pretty much the perfect answer to them - gives me time to shoot them a bit to weaken their barrier, use Throw for a combo, then follow up with Warp and gunfire while they're sprawled on the ground for a kill. Or just gets them killed outright by my allies shooting them, which works for me as well.

Zevox

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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

One more weapon down: I just unlocked the Particle Rifle at long last. Than through a bronze solo to test it out on my Destroyer and it seems pretty damn good, although the maximum range is pretty annoying.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

That depends. I have quite literally taken a shower in the flames of three pyros and come out perfectly fine. The pyros themselves did not. The trick is to build your stacks in the early game and try to keep the ball rollin', an to drop a heavy melee every now and then to stagger a jerk.

But without health regen spec and without getting those early kills, you're doomed. It's the vorcha version of when you're desperately trying to biotic charge someone and your allies keep killing your target. No barrier. All pain.

This. Very much this. It's even more annoying with a Vorcha, because at least with Biotic Charge if the enemy is killed between you starting up and you getting there, you still get the barrier. With Vorcha YOU have to be the one to get the kill.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Dhavaer

One more weapon down: I just unlocked the Particle Rifle at long last. Than through a bronze solo to test it out on my Destroyer and it seems pretty damn good, although the maximum range is pretty annoying.

Bronze may not be the best way to test it. Everything's going to look better there.

Honestly, I've been a bit disappointed with the Particle Rifle in the multiplayer. Maybe it's just me, as I'm just not as good at relying on a weapon, but I always seem to get out-performed substantially by people using other weapons when I play my Batarian Sentinel (who basically exists for the sole purpose of letting me use the Particle Rifle, since it's too damn heavy for me to put on one of my regular casters or Vanguards). It just doesn't seem to work as well as it did when I was using it in the main game (though of course the fact that I had it at rank 5 there and am stuck with a rank 1 in the multiplayer thanks to the thing being ultra-rare may have something to do with that).

Zevox

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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Zevox

Which will just get them to put their barrier up, same as if you thew warp. At which point powers other than Stasis (and maybe others I'm unaware of, but Stasis is the only one I've seen beat their barrier firsthand) are useless on them until the barrier runs out - and they can often just put it back up should you wait it out.

The bubble isn't perfect. Powers can get trough if launched often enough. And unlike the praetorian, they still take some damage. And if she does put up her bubble, well, shoot her. Keep hitting throw and bullet until one gets through.

Okay, you're going to have to explain that one, because I truly do not see how it makes the least bit of sense.

That is the explanation. There is more to warp and throw than one is a warp an one is a throw. There are 17 different combinations of warp. There are 17 different combinations of throw. My half-assed "I wasn't supposed to work today, let alone open" math tells me that there is the a total of 289 different spec combinations for warp and throw together, and while broadly speaking we could say that there are similarities, you still and up with several distinct outputs, which differ.

If you see a class has warp and throw, or pull and reave, or dark channel and throw, or any other biotic primer and biotic detonator, and you see nothing but similarities, that's a problem with your imagination

And yes, the examples I gave are equal. The playstyle differences between different warp/throw variations are sufficient that a comparison to pull/reave or dark channel/throw is not a fallacious one.

Which is a power that both share, not one that makes them different from one another. Which feeds right back into what I said. The class-defining powers Charge and Cloak helped the Ex-Cerberus and Male Quarian characters feel different despite the two power overlap. The Vorcha didn't get any such major difference, instead just trading a Carnage for a grenade - neither of which really synergize with their other powers.

Then you need to clarify, which is why my response was wishy-washy. You said vorcha did not have a distinguishing power... Which sounded like vorcha did not have a vorcha power, not that they had a vorcha power but no distinguishing class power.

synergy is actually pretty potent though. Fire explosions. Fire explosions everywhere. Even when they were harder to get, because you could interupt flamer with grenades, carnage or melee.

You're much better at aiming than I am if you can consistently headshot a Phantom, even when they're stopped briefly to put up their shield.

Briefly? Dude, they hunker down like they are expecting a tornado. "lob a useless power then shoot them in the face" has been a tactic since the geth plasma SMG came out.

Originally Posted by Sholos

This. Very much this. It's even more annoying with a Vorcha, because at least with Biotic Charge if the enemy is killed between you starting up and you getting there, you still get the barrier. With Vorcha YOU have to be the one to get the kill.

Almost! There is a subtle exploit with the melee attack. If you are winding up your heavy melee, and the tracking allows you to hit the dead opponet's body, you get credit for it. You have to already have a line-up homing melee in place, but it works, and it works for Krogan melee too although the window is smaller. So if an ally is torching someone, you can pull out a heavy melee and often get a stack even without the kill.

Originally Posted by Zevox

Honestly, I've been a bit disappointed with the Particle Rifle in the multiplayer. Maybe it's just me, as I'm just not as good at relying on a weapon, but I always seem to get out-performed substantially by people using other weapons when I play my Batarian Sentinel (who basically exists for the sole purpose of letting me use the Particle Rifle, since it's too damn heavy for me to put on one of my regular casters or Vanguards). It just doesn't seem to work as well as it did when I was using it in the main game (though of course the fact that I had it at rank 5 there and am stuck with a rank 1 in the multiplayer thanks to the thing being ultra-rare may have something to do with that).

Zevox

Wow, your aim is off! XD
The value in the particle rifle is its ability to be perfectly accurate. That's how I got good a tracking movin enemies. It's a headshot machine.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Almost! There is a subtle exploit with the melee attack. If you are winding up your heavy melee, and the tracking allows you to hit the dead opponet's body, you get credit for it. You have to already have a line-up homing melee in place, but it works, and it works for Krogan melee too although the window is smaller. So if an ally is torching someone, you can pull out a heavy melee and often get a stack even without the kill.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

The bubble isn't perfect. Powers can get trough if launched often enough. And unlike the praetorian, they still take some damage. And if she does put up her bubble, well, shoot her. Keep hitting throw and bullet until one gets through.

In addition to this, sometimes the bubble animation stays up even when the phantom isn't actually protected. This is generally the case if it looks like she's moving with her bubble up - they are actually vulnerable at this point.

And if all else fails, her bubble never stops bullets - so throw a power for her to put it up, then plug a few high-powered shots right in her slippery fa-

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Briefly? Dude, they hunker down like they are expecting a tornado. "lob a useless power then shoot them in the face" has been a tactic since the geth plasma SMG came out.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Ran through a Silver with the particle rifle and was disappointed. It's still pretty good at killing smaller enemies but up against Atlases it's useless once their shields are down. Nice Phantom killer, but I've got a Piranha for that. I think I'll stick with the Typhoon.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Psyren

In addition to this, sometimes the bubble animation stays up even when the phantom isn't actually protected. This is generally the case if it looks like she's moving with her bubble up - they are actually vulnerable at this point.

And if all else fails, her bubble never stops bullets - so throw a power for her to put it up, then plug a few high-powered shots right in her slippery fa-

Oh right, this was said. So yeah, basically that.

Huh. I didn't actually know that, but it's so obvious that now I feel stupid. There are dozens of instances of power effects Derping.

Originally Posted by Dhavaer

Ran through a Silver with the particle rifle and was disappointed. It's still pretty good at killing smaller enemies but up against Atlases it's useless once their shields are down. Nice Phantom killer, but I've got a Piranha for that. I think I'll stick with the Typhoon.

What are you using? The best mods are the AP mod and thermal clip expansion. A full bore AP beam does tremendous damage to the atlas, even more now that it's rear exhaust port is a weak point which can be reached by shooting through the front. Did you blow of its knee and groin plates? You do damage through those as well. The particle rifle holds up on gold, an I find only platinum really moves too fast for it to be useful.

Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-06 at 05:57 PM.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Dhavaer

Ran through a Silver with the particle rifle and was disappointed. It's still pretty good at killing smaller enemies but up against Atlases it's useless once their shields are down. Nice Phantom killer, but I've got a Piranha for that. I think I'll stick with the Typhoon.

The secret to the Particle Rifle is headshots and Incendiary Ammo. Those two things combined turn into a thing of monstrous beauty.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Dhavaer

Ran through a Silver with the particle rifle and was disappointed. It's still pretty good at killing smaller enemies but up against Atlases it's useless once their shields are down. Nice Phantom killer, but I've got a Piranha for that. I think I'll stick with the Typhoon.

Originally Posted by Edge

The secret to the Particle Rifle is headshots and Incendiary Ammo. Those two things combined turn into a thing of monstrous beauty.

Meh. The individual shot damage is too low to make ammo really that great. Consider that +50% of 20 damage is still only +10 damage. Against armor, you're coming out about even, at 5 damage. That's why I dot bother with the extended barrel. It's garbage. Now, extra shots and armor piercing, that's Gold.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Meh. The individual shot damage is too low to make ammo really that great. Consider that +50% of 20 damage is still only +10 damage. Against armor, you're coming out about even, at 5 damage. That's why I dot bother with the extended barrel. It's garbage. Now, extra shots and armor piercing, that's Gold.

Ah, but you're discounting the fact that the Incendiary Ammo damage over time effect stacks with itself and is based off weapon damage dealt rather than the weapon's base damage. Thus, getting headshots gives you a nice 2.5 multiplier on the DoT, which then stacks with itself very rapidly thanks to the particle rifle's rather excessive rate of fire.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Edge

Ah, but you're discounting the fact that the Incendiary Ammo damage over time effect stacks with itself and is based off weapon damage dealt rather than the weapon's base damage. Thus, getting headshots gives you a nice 2.5 multiplier on the DoT, which then stacks with itself very rapidly thanks to the particle rifle's rather excessive rate of fire.

I was under the impression that this damage counted as coming from a separate source, so each 1s of damage was modified by enemy armor. Which means against armored foes you need to deal over a hundred damage a shot with incendiary ammo IV, which is hard when that 2.5 multiplier on a +100% particle rifle is...100 damage.

If armor doesn't affect it this way then it would still be good. But we aren't disputing the usefulness against normal troops. Just heavies.

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, we're not debating the meaning of life here. You shouldn't ask the question nor seek the answer from us. Go build it by doing things. Gather evidence.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by SiuiS

The bubble isn't perfect. Powers can get trough if launched often enough.

No, no they can't. Sounds like you're just getting lucky and hitting one at the moment it drops if you think they can. I've tried spamming powers at them plenty of times, since that's kind of my preferred tactic on most of my characters, to no effect whatsoever.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

That is the explanation. There is more to warp and throw than one is a warp an one is a throw. There are 17 different combinations of warp. There are 17 different combinations of throw. My half-assed "I wasn't supposed to work today, let alone open" math tells me that there is the a total of 289 different spec combinations for warp and throw together, and while broadly speaking we could say that there are similarities, you still and up with several distinct outputs, which differ.

Yeah, can't agree with you there. Technically you can spec Warp and Throw all those different ways, sure. But those differences do not suffice to alter play style. The most significant choice in either power is between Lasting Damage and Expose on Warp, where one makes Warp itself more powerful and one makes everything else that hits the target after Warp for a while more powerful - and even there, you'd hard-pressed to argue that Expose isn't just outright better than Lasting Damage, since even specced for maximum damage Warp itself is hardly a massive damage dealer, whereas more damage from other sources very much can be huge.

Other than that you've got:

Warp rank 4 - Damage vs Detonate. Detonate is strictly superior, since combo damage outdoes individual power damage, especially when you have both Warp and Throw with Detonate.
Warp rank 6 - Pierce vs Recharge Speed. The second closest to being relevant among these upgrade choices, but still not much of a choice. Warp's recharge speed is average, which if you're using light-weight weapons means there's little if any reason to pick Recharge Speed over the damage and armor-weakening boost of Pierce.

Throw rank 4 - Force vs Radius. I'm honestly not even sure what Force does - it seems to have no appreciable effect on what I'd expect it to affect, how far an unprotected target is thrown or how likely a protected one is to stagger. So I'm pretty convinced by that alone that Radius is strictly superior. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm missing something on this one, though, I'd be quite curious to know what increasing the force of a power does if not that.
Throw rank 5 - Detonate vs Recharge Combo. Detonate is so superior it's not even funny. Throw already has the lowest cooldown of any power in the game, so getting no cooldown after it detonates a combo is hardly noteworthy at all. Detonate, however, is, especially in combination with a Warp that also has detonate.
Throw rank 6 - Force & Damage vs Recharge Speed. As mentioned, Throw's recharge speed is already the lowest in the game, so the latter is practically worthless.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Then you need to clarify, which is why my response was wishy-washy. You said vorcha did not have a distinguishing power... Which sounded like vorcha did not have a vorcha power, not that they had a vorcha power but no distinguishing class power.

What I meant by that is what I said in that second post - the other two sets of same-race classes from that DLC got class-defining powers for their one different power between the two. Charge, which in and of itself drastically alters the play-style of a class that has it compared to those that don't, and Cloak, which is similarly huge in that respect. So despite having two identical powers, you could argue that the Quarian Male Engineer vs Quarian Male Infiltrator and Ex-Cerberus Adept vs Ex-Cerberus Vanguard were substantially differentiated by their one power.

The Vorcha though? Both get Bloodlust and Flamer, which were both the new powers at the time. Their only difference is Carnage or grenades, both of which are old abilities that are pretty straightforward damage-dealers, just one being more single-target focused and working on a cooldown and one being more area-focused and having an ammo limit. And it didn't help that grenades had been ubiquitous on Soldiers up until that point, making the Sentinel seem like it belonged in the Soldier class. Bloodlust and Flamer were the more defining powers of those classes, and they both shared them. Quite a few people in these threads commented on that at the time, if I recall.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

synergy is actually pretty potent though. Fire explosions. Fire explosions everywhere. Even when they were harder to get, because you could interupt flamer with grenades, carnage or melee.

I wouldn't know about that, as I've never played a Vorcha. I can't imagine they were easy to get before the change, though - I know I never saw Vorcha doing fire explosions before the change myself. Heck, I see more fire explosions in individual matches now than I saw total before the change.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Wow, your aim is off! XD
The value in the particle rifle is its ability to be perfectly accurate. That's how I got good a tracking movin enemies. It's a headshot machine.

I have not been making things up when I say I'm bad at that. The entire reason I picked the Batarian Sentinel to be my Particle Rifle class is the Submission Net power. With that, I actually don't need to worry about aiming, and can even try for headshots if my allies don't kill the thing before I do. Otherwise, on smaller (read: human-size) targets, I mostly hit them when they're standing up behind cover or shooting at someone else, and then certainly not with headshots. Or if they're moving slowly, like a Guardian (thank you, piercing mod) or Geth Pyro, and again, not with headshots there either. Larger targets I don't have trouble hitting, except the Banshee sometimes, though their slow movement when not teleporting does help make up for them being rather thin usually, so my trouble there is mostly when they're teleporting.

On truly small targets, like the Geth Bomber? I prefer to go to melee, because if I get a proper lock with that, it won't miss. I cannot say the same for my weapon fire with something like the Particle Rifle.

Anyway, personally, the reason I like the Particle Rifle is not it being perfectly accurate, which can actually be a down-side for me, but because it basically uses the ME1 cooldown system, so I never need to worry about ammo with it. And also, it's basically a laser weapon, and I rather like those.

Originally Posted by Dhaevaer

Ran through a Silver with the particle rifle and was disappointed. It's still pretty good at killing smaller enemies but up against Atlases it's useless once their shields are down.

What SiuiS said on this one. Piercing Mod is an absolute must on the Particle Rifle, since it's the only way to make it worth a damn against armor, and ammo mod is extremely helpful as well for extending the amount of time you can blast something with the full-force beam. If you weren't using the Piercing Mod at least, try it again with it. If you were using one that was low-rank, try it again once you get it to rank 4 or 5, since every additional rank to the mod is another 10% of the armor damage reduction negated.

Zevox

Last edited by Zevox; 2012-11-06 at 10:20 PM.

Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Originally Posted by Zevox

What SiuiS said on this one. Piercing Mod is an absolute must on the Particle Rifle, since it's the only way to make it worth a damn against armor, and ammo mod is extremely helpful as well for extending the amount of time you can blast something with the full-force beam. If you weren't using the Piercing Mod at least, try it again with it. If you were using one that was low-rank, try it again once you get it to rank 4 or 5, since every additional rank to the mod is another 10% of the armor damage reduction negated.

I was using extended clip and armour piercing, both at V. I'll try again with High-V barrel once I get it to V.

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Whenever I play my N7 Fury I have found that, regardless of the Phantom's bubble animation, I am able to consistently detonate them if I get close enough to hit them with Annihilation Field to prime them, and then trigger the field again to cause a detonation.

That's actually how I placed first on the last Platinum mission I played. It was with a regular group of freinds and we were playing "get in the box" on Rio with one of the guys playing the Volus Engineer so that we had tactical vision from his mine and he would stand inside the box with us when heavies got close to continually replenish our shields.

I just stood in the corner, when things got heavy and we had a lot of target swarming the area, and continually popped the field. Because of this I was able to detonate multiple targets through the wall of the box.

- Point reward for completing Solo Mastery decreased from 300 to 100
- Point reward for completing Biotic Mastery decreased from 300 to 140
- Point reward for completing Tech Mastery decreased from 300 to 140
- Point reward for completing Squad Elite increased from 130 to 200
- Point reward for completing Resurgence Mastery increased from 130 to 170
- Point reward for completing Rebellion Mastery increased from 130 to 170
- Point reward for completing Earth Mastery increased from 130 to 170
- Point reward for completing Commando Mastery increased from 160 to 200
- Point reward for completing Machine Mastery increased from 140 to 170
- Point reward for completing Outsider Mastery increased from 130 to 170
- Point reward for completing Shotgun, Assault Rifle, or Sniper Rifle Mastery increased from 140 to 175
- Point reward for completing Pistol Mastery increased from 130 to 155
- Point reward for completing Combat Mastery increased from 170 to 255
- Point reward for completing Cerberus Mastery increased from 220 to 250
- Point reward for completing Reaper Mastery increased from 200 to 250
- Point reward for completing Geth Mastery increased from 200 to 250
- Point reward for completing Collector Mastery increased from 200 to 250

- Fixed a bug where the Arc Grenade challenge for Male Quarian kits was not working
- Fixed a bug with the Survival Medal challenge not completing, details here

- Title for completing the Halloween Challenge changed from "Halloween Challenge" to "Hallowed Hero"

Batarian Brawler
- Now moves at the same speed as other Batarians when carrying objectives

Re: Mass Effect 3.7: "That was for Thane"

Scorpion in mine. Am actually kind of pleased by this development, plus the ease of the N7 challenge. (I mean really, 3 extractions with a human char? I'll take that commendation pack now, thanks very much)

Originally Posted by Zap Dynamic

I want to create a world that is full of possibility, and one of the best ways to handle it is by creating a bunch of stories that haven't yet been finished.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

At this point, however, I'm thinking way too hard about the practical problems of running a battle royale school for Russian assassins, so I think I'll leave it there.

In my posts, smilies generally correspond to my expression at the time. As an example, means "huh?" and "Hmm..". Also, "Landis" is fine.