Can you please explain why California and New Jersey are nearly bankrupt and our largest expenses are public employee benefits, pensions and annual raises (Plus cost of living increases)?

I'd simply love to hear what else it could be.

California got screwed back when they put the 2/3 majority for revenue increases. It went down hill FAST after that. But of course it is teachers and firefighters fault.

Somethings are mandatory to have in a civilized country. education and public safety in the forms of firefighters and teachers are those kind of things. I swear to god the far right isnt happy until a teacher is making 3dollars an hour and fire fighters show up to work because they think it is cool to fight fires. Regardless of how low and terrible the wages and the benefits get they will always complain they are too high.

Really how do you think public schools are supposed to get good teachers if you offer them salaries and benefits that are if no terrible so god damn close to terrible. You think it is outrageous for a teacher to make 20 dollars an hour???? If anything we need to pay the best ones even more since a highly qualified teachers with good degrees can earn 3 times this in the private sector no problems.

It is about what we want to priorities and if we want a race to the bottom and beat China as the cheap labor country in the world. Sure good for business but who will buy those things that gets made? noone can afford to buy them anymore since they arent earning enough $$$$ to buy anything anymore.

---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 08:16 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Zhangfei

He's upset that I showed him evidence that Palestinians owned Palestine before Israel illegally stole their land.

It was the land of the Palestinians for centuries before Israel got forced upon them and they got evicted from there own land. Just play with the idea that someone like UN says ok folks these states will now be a new country. I doubt the right wingers would approve of that action by the UN.

right here... follow the BLS link... ND has less than 15,000 unemployed people.

just like I said it.

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

You know absolutely nothing... I'm living in this state telling you "This is the reason we're broke" and you're postulating from 1000 miles away that it couldn't possibly be your fellow teachers.

Be that as it may, if someone makes a commitment to pay then they should. What would a slight raise in taxes accomplish? Perhaps a 0.1% raise in the sales tax?

You know what? When they refused to budge on their contracts, we did pay. We froze the budget (Again, because there's no goddamn money) and said they could either take their raises and we'd have to lay off workers in all fields OR they could accept their pay freeze.

It was the land of the Palestinians for centuries before Israel got forced upon them and they got evicted from there own land. Just play with the idea that someone like UN says ok folks these states will now be a new country. I doubt the right wingers would approve of that action by the UN.

and the Israeli/Israelite claim goes back thousands of years

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

Was it not you that said that Israeli citizens deserved to be blown up by suicide bombers because they support the Israeli government? hmm? or did I read that wrong?

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

California got screwed back when they put the 2/3 majority for revenue increases. It went down hill FAST after that. But of course it is teachers and firefighters fault.

Somethings are mandatory to have in a civilized country. education and public safety in the forms of firefighters and teachers are those kind of things. I swear to god the far right isnt happy until a teacher is making 3dollars an hour and fire fighters show up to work because they think it is cool to fight fires. Regardless of how low and terrible the wages and the benefits get they will always complain they are too high.

Really how do you think public schools are supposed to get good teachers if you offer them salaries and benefits that are if no terrible so god damn close to terrible. You think it is outrageous for a teacher to make 20 dollars an hour???? If anything we need to pay the best ones even more since a highly qualified teachers with good degrees can earn 3 times this in the private sector no problems.

Also you didn't explain New Jersey's crisis. I'm seriously waiting for someone to offer even one plausible reason NJ is in financial trouble while still avoiding blaming the unions (Because god forbid the left ever admit unions could cause a problem, them being the gentle omnibenevolent souls they are). Raise taxes? Been doing that since the late 80s. Taxes still too low? We're the 2nd highest taxed in the nation.

You know absolutely nothing... I'm living in this state telling you "This is the reason we're broke" and you're postulating from 1000 miles away that it couldn't possibly be your fellow teachers.

You can't use this damn excuse given you know nothing of teaching, our pay, how it works and even where I am.

You know what? [b]When they refused to budge on their contracts

End of game. Respect the contract signed.

*ahem*

So not all then.

Again, look at Finland. Their teachers have masters degrees and get paid comparable wages to the US. Don't try to tell me we're not paying teachers enough.

Finland gives teachers a shit ton more respect. They're comparable to doctors, with doctor's power over the education of their students. They also teach about 60% of the time American teachers are, giving them far more time to prep for classes. The teaching colleges are considered prestigious and difficult to get into; 1 in 10 achieve it. When you start respecting teachers like this, then you'll get something like Finland. America simply does not. America has a drastic pay disparity between regions too - NJ may compare. Most states simply do not. It's why America's ed keeps slipping; not enough investment into teaching (not necessarily pay raise.)

Really? The built up areas of a given state have more money and a better education system? You don't say.

right here... follow the BLS link... ND has less than 15,000 unemployed people.

just like I said it.

I thought you ment Texas. ND has a labour force of just over 7k increase a year with a population of under 700k. They have 7000, yes that's just 7000 new workers a year, their unemployment number, is twice that of new labour force. Compare the ND land mass to Brooklyn and their population of 2.4 million.

When anyone tells you, 'your one in a million'. There are 2 more of you in Brooklyn than ND.

I thought you ment Texas. ND has a labour force of just over 7k increase a year with a population of under 700k. They have 7000, yes that's just 7000 new workers a year, their unemployment number, is twice that of new labour force. Compare the ND land mass to Brooklyn and their population of 2.4 million.

Unemployment of 3.0%

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

Uhm... Yeah, but you have to live in ND and are competing for jobs with only twice the people my school had. There are a lot less jobs and people, per square mile of ND than cities in states you are comparing it to. You think their rate would be as low if people actually wanted to live there?

---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 08:41 AM ----------

You are saying we need to kill off 66% of Brooklyn and spread them across a land mass the size of ND, the rate would be much different? I bet their schools are less crowded and receive less funding than CA and NJ, if only we could figure out how they do it.

Uhm... Yeah, but you have to live in ND and are competing for jobs with only twice the people my school had. There are a lot less jobs and people, per square mile of ND than cities in states you are comparing it to. You think their rate would be as low if people actually wanted to live there?

North Dakota's entire population is only about 200k more than the municipal region of here, in Columbia, SC.

In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.

Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.

Christie didn't sign that contract. And he DID respect the contract. You're ignoring that part. You just don't like the resulting layoff of public servants.

So not all then.

You think 41% of a state budget is insufficient for a SINGLE department? I guess that means we can ramp up spending on the US Military!

Finland gives teachers a shit ton more respect. They're comparable to doctors, with doctor's power over the education of their students. They also teach about 60% of the time American teachers are, giving them far more time to prep for classes. The teaching colleges are considered prestigious and difficult to get into; 1 in 10 achieve it. When you start respecting teachers like this, then you'll get something like Finland. America simply does not. America has a drastic pay disparity between regions too - NJ may compare. Most states simply do not. It's why America's ed keeps slipping; not enough investment into teaching (not necessarily pay raise.)

I don't disagree that teaching should be a more respectable profession. It should also provide a living wage. But let's face it. There are a fucking trillion teachers clamoring over spots and huge numbers of them are filling substitute positions. There's no market to being a teacher and the laughable idea that you could just get a job working in the private sector earning 3x the salary makes us all laugh because we know many private schools have <20:1 ratios and a pile of resumes that you're at the bottom of.

So you're bringing up the Hong Kong economy to compare to SC's education system? Stop bloody stretching; Texas is in shit. Most red states are. Most blue states are far better off.

Yeah but the presence of Texas and countries like Hong Kong have me leaning on it being a correlation rather than a causation because being on the right DOES work if your state isn't a massive welfare recipient.

You can find that crap anywhere. What about the SC struggle for Haley's budget slashing and our imminent demise? (to be fair, it's been going on for decades)

Fighting unions, so what? What has that got to do with quality of education, where NJ is superb and the ONLY red state doing any good (because of her natural resources, not education system) is Texas?

You have no evidence that Texas is ONLY doing good because of oil (Which Louisiana and Oklahoma both have as well, FYI) nor are you even deigning to address the facts about NJ.

- We honored our contracts
- We don't have the money to continue along this path of ridiculous spending
- Education is the largest single outlay of our state budget at 41%
- We're the second most taxed state in the nation and we're already experiencing the results of that (Which includes a brain drain)

SO. Address these facts while still absolutely refusing to admit that the unions possibly (definitely in my and at least 53% of NJ's observation) are the cause?

Joyous day! You have statistics showing us how much "extra" money is spent because of unions and are willing to share, despite the fact that NJ is hugely successful compared to nearly every red state!

Yes, we all love how unsustainable practices can produce better-than-average results. Just look at this whole "energy" thing and how that's shaping up.

What the fuck good is even the top education system in the world if your state can't afford to keep it going?

Christie didn't sign that contract. And he DID respect the contract. You're ignoring that part. You just don't like the resulting layoff of public servants.

Who the hell "likes" firing people for no reason based on their performance? Do you think teachers are the Borg?

You think 41% of a state budget is insufficient for a SINGLE department? I guess that means we can ramp up spending on the US Military!

For education? It clearly works?

I don't disagree that teaching should be a more respectable profession. It should also provide a living wage. But let's face it. There are a fucking trillion teachers clamoring over spots and huge numbers of them are filling substitute positions. There's no market to being a teacher and the laughable idea that you could just get a job working in the private sector earning 3x the salary makes us all laugh because we know many private schools have <20:1 ratios and a pile of resumes that you're at the bottom of.

WTF? Private schools are jokes, very few actually do comparably well in objective testing compared to public schools for one. Secondly, you're in NJ; your situation is far more positive. In SC there are plenty of spots that go begging because they are in shitholes. Third, of course you can't just make more money elsewhere. Jobs don't work like that. The point is like cities and states have lawyers, they should have teachers paid according to the skills they have acquired and the money they've spent attaining their degrees.

Yeah but the presence of Texas and countries like Hong Kong have me leaning on it being a correlation rather than a causation because being on the right DOES work if your state isn't a massive welfare recipient.

Texas' education fucking sucks and the state will sink without oil. Hong Kong has a British-style education system heavily funded by the government and with Confucian ideals, that heavily respect the value of education and teaching. I don't get the comparisons. Make America Confucian swimming on oil?

You have no evidence that Texas is ONLY doing good because of oil (Which Louisiana and Oklahoma both have as well, FYI) nor are you even deigning to address the facts about NJ.

I do have evidence that Texas' education sucks, they have to hire from outside, and that they're only one state that succeeds. Similar states are absolute shitholes for education.

- We honored our contracts
- We don't have the money to continue along this path of ridiculous spending
- Education is the largest single outlay of our state budget at 41%
- We're the second most taxed state in the nation and we're already experiencing the results of that (Which includes a brain drain)

To where? How is NJ "failing" compared to other states? What's the unemployment and flexibility of her progeny? Who gives a crap that X is the budget when it provides Y? It smacks of some arbitrary figure in your mind without any evidence to back it up.

SO. Address these facts while still absolutely refusing to admit that the unions possibly (definitely in my and at least 53% of NJ's observation) are the cause?

WHAT FACTS. You've given nothing about what unions cost in comparison to better and how the education system would succeed more without them.

The states without unions, funnily, tend to be turd at it with awful economies and low taxes meaning nothing changes. They just suck off the teat of the federal government over and over and over.

Yes, we all love how unsustainable practices can produce better-than-average results. Just look at this whole "energy" thing and how that's shaping up.

What the fuck good is even the top education system in the world if your state can't afford to keep it going?

But it does and all you've got is Christie giving typical right wing "all will fail" articles to back it up. Like I said; Haley says the same in SC despite our bloody terrible system!

In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.

Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.