well ive done 3-4 hc now and tbh im at around 35-50k dps at the end of the instance - admittadly(?) im ilvl 444 atm and im against ppl who are around 460 from what ive looked at but the other day i looked at a dk and he was around 450 ilvl and he was doing about 8k more than me, is this right or am i lacking somewhere - im trying to follow the rotation and i do have barrage instead of glaive or powershot but even so i still seem to be lacking

Glaive Toss is best for PvE, also you will scale, a lot, might have been possible that the DK had a 463 weapon.

toy cannot macro the class into 1 button like BC / wrath and you cann facr roll and win like in cata. you have to use things at the right time which is beyond the typical "huntard" that is why so many people think the damage is low, they are just bad and now its being brought to light.

Pretty sure JS said at one point he could write a macro that would do the entire rotation for us.

Found the quote here.

Before I would ever use spellflash or whatever they are called, I'd write a macro to fully run my rot for me and piss off Blizzard. (Which, even with their secure functions can be done, lol. You just need to think outside the box and I've already tested and done it. But if I were to actually do this and release a one button macro, it would effect everyone as Blizzard would need to take drastic measures to prevent the use) If you don't want to play the game and have a macro do everything for you, why play?

Can someone let me know what gemming rules they are following. Are they only going for socket bonuses if over +60 stat or ignoring any socket bonuses unless its agi. Not sure how much its changed since Cata.

since agility is still worth more than 3x of your secondary stats its still beneficial to gem straight agility unless the socket bonus is worth MORE than 60 secondary stat or more than 20 agility. or to put it simple: yes if its agility bonus, no if it aint a huge chunk of secondary stat (per socket) as yould usually only see on a helmet.

I haven't had any trouble keeping up with the Locks, but Fire Mages and Frost DKs absolutely annihilate me on most encounters. I'm putting up top 25 parses on most encounters as Survival and I'm a solid 10-20k behind them most of the time.

Hunter damage is mid-tier depending on gear IMO. The burst you can do up front as BM when you line up all of your CDs can be quite good, but our sustained damage is trumped by quite a few other classes. As BM hunters can hang with other classes on burn bosses, and in AOE in involved survival can keep up nicely. However, when a fight requires both of the aforementioned things is when I think hunters fall behind as there are other classes that can do those things better and not give up too much in one direction. I recently had a discussion with a hunter buddy of mine, Methylene from Blood Legion, and we were discussing how hunters do decent damage but not enough to bring them over any other class that has damage + raid utility. He also mentioned that because of this Blood Legion only brings one hunter to raids usually. This is from a 25man standpoint of course, as I don't do 10m content and neither does he.

I think it's a lot higher skill cap to play hunters right now and most encounters favour multi dotting/cleave classes which hunters are historically poor at. I'm finding SPs also are doing well on top of locks and fire mages and any class that can cleave. It seems Blizz haven't learnt from when hunters were sat out during DS where GC said hunter Dps is fine followed by buffs a month later. They must be looking at heroic parses and seeing hunters are behind other classes but don't forget our utility in encounters such as will of the emperor.

I've been looking at heroic logs recently and I do think theres concern about hunter damage. Not sure what logs Blizz use, but if you go spec by spec we're being smashed by locks and mages, rogues seem to be doing better single target damage and a feck ton more on cleave fights, I've seen ench shamans, frost DKs, arms and fury warriors all doing better than us. SPs seem extremely OP right now and even their "poor" single target damage is better than hunters. Is it a matter of waiting till we get decked out in heroic gear before we can really shine or is there something wrong with the gross imbalance in the numbers I am seeing on WOLs. I am ofcourse omitting bugged reports, old tank vengence reports and comparing like for like each spec. The only spec we are doing better than at present it seems is arcane mages (but they have fire which is doubling the output on some encounters) lol. Don't care about people saying its a L2P issue as the logs are saying otherwise. Just curious if we're just going to the lol class this reset (like locks last expansion).

As for Garajal - I looked at your logs and then the top logs of other classes, we're woefully behind other classes - as an example SPs are doing almost 15K more than us on top for top parses. The trend continues.

I've been looking at heroic logs recently and I do think theres concern about hunter damage. Not sure what logs Blizz use, but if you go spec by spec we're being smashed by locks and mages, rogues seem to be doing better single target damage and a feck ton more on cleave fights, I've seen ench shamans, frost DKs, arms and fury warriors all doing better than us. SPs seem extremely OP right now and even their "poor" single target damage is better than hunters. Is it a matter of waiting till we get decked out in heroic gear before we can really shine or is there something wrong with the gross imbalance in the numbers I am seeing on WOLs. I am ofcourse omitting bugged reports, old tank vengence reports and comparing like for like each spec. The only spec we are doing better than at present it seems is arcane mages (but they have fire which is doubling the output on some encounters) lol. Don't care about people saying its a L2P issue as the logs are saying otherwise. Just curious if we're just going to the lol class this reset (like locks last expansion).

As for Garajal - I looked at your logs and then the top logs of other classes, we're woefully behind other classes - as an example SPs are doing almost 15K more than us on top for top parses. The trend continues.

Sp's are only doing about 5K more than I usually do. Gara cannot be used for any kind of comparison, as the spirit realm will completly fuck over anyone that's not logging themselves. My meter shows me at ~100K to 105K as BM there usually, and I'm far from executing it perfectly mind you, but drops me to 70K in logs because I spend two minutes out of six dpsing spirits and severers inside the spirit realm, while our log-responsible player is pounding the boss outside.
Overall, hunters are mid table in heroic raids at the moment, and obviously, we fall behind on fights with heavy cleave or multi-dotting capabilities. Which, sadly, involves alot of fights so far - on singletarget, we're still doing quite allright. We aren't getting completly left in the dust by nearly as many classes as you're claiming on the fights we are good for, like Spirit kings.
And you have to remember, that our numbers simply are so big now, that a ~2K dps difference between classes, is close to a 2% difference - as long as we're within 5% of the middle DPS, then we're doing fine. We're above average, not below, so there's really not much to complain about, apart from "QQ I should have picked a Dot-class". If you haven't learnt that by now (the entire fucking cataclysm, with V+T, Cho'gall, Sinestra, Al'akir, Maloriak, Magmaw, Omnotron, Rhyolith, Ragnaros, Zon'ozz, Blackhorn, and Madness, where DOT-classes were stronger says "hi"), then I don't know what to say, really. Hunters have historically never been good at cleaving, so if you have such a big issue with us being behind on cleave fights, you should probably reroll, or atleast level and gear an alt you can use for progress (I've got a boomkin/resto druid, and a blood DK up my sleeve ATM) if needs be.

Don't think you are getting my point Draco - nor am I QQing, want to reroll, I enjoy playing my hunter and do OK with it. I do feel however that due to huge amount of abilities we need to look at, especially BM where you want to line everything up to maximise it any mistakes and we are punished I feel heavier than other classes. I don't mind dot classes doing well on multi target fights even it means by almost double the DPS at times but then we shouldn't be mid table on single target encounters. Yes we bring utility but when GC claims hunter DPS is fine, its not really, its ok but behind quite a few classes. The classes I posted I checked before posting, I looked at heroic enounters on MV, followed by HoF all encounters and it seemed to me that we are low. I don't have time to list the comparisons but if anyone wants to do that I wouldn't mind having a fair look at where we are. Again not a QQ post, more a concerned post. I do have an ele shammy mind you (my main from back in TBC) and I can say its a hell lot easier doing good DPS with it than my hunter, with more margin for error.

My point exactly. If we don't excel in multi dot encounters, fine, no problems but then we shouldn't be getting smashed by SPs on Elagaon correct - just as an example of a more single target encounter. If you want to cite Spirit kings as example:

SV Hunter damage is great. You are calling BM the top spec but from what I've seen raiding with similarly geared hunters, I out dps BM all day unless they are literally flawless in their decision making (which is rare so don't hold it against yourself).

When a BM hunter is truly in love with his spec and becomes an expert at it, it will be hard for SV to out dps that person. The problem is that most people don't enjoy BM as a spec and in turn never truly become an expert and think that they should be doing more dps simply because of how the spec sims.

My theory: Most BM Hunters play BM because of the hype it has received as of late.
My advice: Play the spec you actually enjoy because you will then have the drive to become the best at it, which will have you doing more dps.

It's simple and nothing new. Dot classes are awesome during progression and will shine on the meters. Shadow Priest are basically survival hunters with no pet management and the ability to multi-dot. If you're still playing a hunter and these things seem new to you, go and look at every single raid tier in the past during progression.