The buzz in the meeting rooms, bars, restaurants and hotels during last week's Wineries Unlimited, the biggest conference and trade show in the East, was more evidence of a wine industry beyond the West Coast that has visions of grandeur -- or, at least, acceptance on a par with the folks in Oregon, Washington or California.

New wineries, new winemakers, new wines: The event in Lancaster, Pa., sponsored by Vineyard and Winery Management magazine, offered a snapshot of new wine horizons in the heartland and East.

Paul, as we sort out the differences between our forums, I'm going to suggest that news clippings about Eastern wineries and such be held for the Netscape Forum. That's a good place for them, leaving this wine forum more open for discussion of wine tasting and advanced wine issues.

This is a tougie. I live in the East, I sometimes visit Eastern wineries, I even occasionally taste, and judge, Eastern wines, including Norton, hybrids and labrusca. I think these items are as legitimate for intelligent, advanced wine-geek discussion as Merlot or Plavac Mali.

But that being said, and I'm going to be frank about this in public and with Paul looking on, because I think he can take it: ANY discussion becomes ripe for parody when it's presented in overheated, promotional prose. To pick on Paul, although I'm really talking about ANY poster, I don't mind him posting a TN on any Fochin' grape he likes. But I'll pay more attention and take him more seriously if he can do it without the "amazingly awesomes," and talk about his own experiences. There's no real need to post every single article about non-traditional wines that comes over the news wire, and it's certainly possible to talk about non-traditional wines here, in proportion.

I LIKE it that this forum is open to discussion of any serious wine subject, and I don't want to have us gain a reputation like eB^H^H some places where anyone who disagrees with a Guru is held up for scorn. But I think we can do that without becoming known as The Hybrid Lovers Discussion Group, and I hope we can accomplish this by being mature enough to express our excitement in an appropriate manner. Somewhere between manic and depressive there's a nice moderate comfort zone. It's a good place to be.

Bill actually makes a good point in that (and I don't mean this in a self-aggrandizing way), I don't think there is anyone with quite the intensity of interest in high-quality artisanal labrusca wines here as me, and so if folks can't add to the topics in a commensurate way then it makes sense to draw sober conclusions about it. The genre that I'm proposing is in such a state of infancy that it doesn't yet have a unified geek community rallying around it. Although I consider myself a wine geek at heart, the specific topics of my vinous passion frequently form a separate whole. That said, I've been longing for more French and Italian wine in my vinous diet (except for our Ontario wines I drink practically no North American or New World wine at all), so it's fair to say that my TNs will be much more in balance with what the community at large is likely to be drinking.

I LIKE it that this forum is open to discussion of any serious wine subject, and I don't want to have us gain a reputation like eB^H^H some places where anyone who disagrees with a Guru is held up for scorn. But I think we can do that without becoming known as The Hybrid Lovers Discussion Group, and I hope we can accomplish this by being mature enough to express our excitement in an appropriate manner. Somewhere between manic and depressive there's a nice moderate comfort zone. It's a good place to be.

I'm a little confused here Robin. Serious winegrowers grow non-vinifera grapes, serious winemakers vinify the wine, serious wineries sell the reulting wine to serious wine drinkers. The fact that many of us do not like non-vinifera wines, or in my case have never had the oportunity to even taste one, does not make it a non-serious subject. I agree about the 'amazingly fantastic' notes.

But now that we all know who starts a thread, if anyone does not like Paul B's postings, they are now easy to ignore. By the way that people are flooding into this forum when it has not been publicly launched, perhaps the Netscape forum will be a newbie only site, before they come on over here to talk with serious wine geeks. I can see no reason for Paul having to talk to newbies alone. They may have no idea at all about what he is talking about. I think Paul should stay here.

IMHO.

Cheers,
Neil Courtney

'Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it.' --- Anonymous.

Absolutely, Neil. Nobody is being voted off the island, and if anything I said suggested otherwise, I regret that. No such thing was intended.

I am gently suggesting, speaking of Internet forum posting in general, that an excess of zeal can have the opposite of the intended effect and that balance is as important in Wacky Internet Personalities as it is in wine. And I'll drink to that with a glass of Chambourcin/Norton blend.

OK, now you have piqued my interest. I have tried several Chambo's, and on Googling for Norton, I find that it is Vitis aestivalis. I had thought we were only talking about Vitis labrusca. Interesting.

Cheers,
Neil Courtney

'Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it.' --- Anonymous.

Neil, actually I made up the Norton/Chambo blend out of whole cloth, but now I think about it, it might work!

In the context of the continental climates of Eastern US and Canada, vitis vinifera has always been iffy for many reasons, ranging from killing winter to too-hot, too-humid summers, although folks are having a little more luck with it in the modern age of high-tech agriculture. Basically, though, the regional industry relied on labrusca for a long time, French-American hybrids more recently, and Norton (aka Cynthiana), vitis aestivalis, as a rare but regionally trendy alternative. Few of the wines rise above the ordinary (and some fall well below it), but they sometimes develop regional followings just because they are local.

The fact that many of us do not like non-vinifera wines, or in my case have never had the oportunity to even taste one, does not make it a non-serious subject.

Neil I am sure you have tried many non-vinifera wines in your life. That's what most of the West Auckland wine was 30 years ago. Gee, they even tried to make wine out of Albany Surrprise as well as the more popular Siebel hybrids. Not to mention the odd Chambourcin of very recent times - it's even used as a blended grape by Clearview, that esteemed Chardonnay and red wine producer from Hawkes Bay - they put it in their Blush, and that White Diamond from up north was an interesting drop. And what about that gorgeous ice wine from Canada, made from the Vidal grape?

Surely one can't say that Malivoire's Old Vines Foch or Henry of Pelham's Baco Noir Reserve, or Turtle Run's Chambourcin, or Blumenhof's Cynthiana (granted, not all are pure native wines, but all have at least one foot that evolved in Eastern North America) are crap wines.

When one elevates the standard and desires to produce something beyond massively indifferent jug wine from a given variety, the result will simply be a better wine. They won't de-throne the grand First Growths or anything, but that's not the point! The point is that they can produce excellent dry table wines in our climate - and table wines are what most folks drink most of the time.

Surely one can't say that Malivoire's Old Vines Foch or Henry of Pelham's Baco Noir Reserve, or Turtle Run's Chambourcin, or Blumenhof's Cynthiana (granted, not all are pure native wines, but all have at least one foot that evolved in Eastern North America) are crap wines.

When one elevates the standard and desires to produce something beyond massively indifferent jug wine from a given variety, the result will simply be a better wine. They won't de-throne the grand First Growths or anything, but that's not the point! The point is that they can produce excellent dry table wines in our climate - and table wines are what most folks drink most of the time.

Good job, Paul! Well argued, and the discreet absence of "awesomely amazings" makes this post one that doesn't trigger an intuitive "oh, yeah?" response.