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well-meaning whites

Well-meaning whites (c. 1787- ) are those who mean well when it comes to people of colour but might still be unknowingly racist in some way. Most whites in America seem to present themselves this way – and they mostly seem to believe it too. It is a phenomenon that goes back at least to the late 1700s and extends to Europe too.

Some well-meaning whites truly are well-meaning. Like John Brown, William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and those who were abolitionists and Freedom Riders.

Lincoln is a good example. He was straight-up racist, we know that from things he said in the Lincoln-Douglas Debates, yet in the end he did free the slaves. That was not the easy or safe thing to do – it led to all-out war – but still he did it. And many whites from the North willingly gave their very lives for that cause.

But most whites who seem well-meaning are not, not deep down. It is an act to maintain their self-image as being Basically Good.

How I know: I used to think most whites were well-meaning but were racist because they just did not know any better – that if you pointed out their mistake the scales would fall from their eyes and they would say, “Wow, you are so right!” But instead you get anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.

Not the behaviour of a clueless innocent. Deep down they know just what the deal is and what their dirty, ugly part in it is. And at bottom they just do not care. Thus their “well-meaning”.

The well-meaning act is just that – an act. For most of them. They even talk like they are reading from a script and not speaking from their heart – like they are speaking lines they learned somewhere.

Their racism is not some accident, not something left over from slave days that never got properly examined and thrown out. No, racism is the very thing that allows them to benefit from an unjust society while still thinking of themselves as – well-meaning. And the well-meaning act allows them to think of themselves as – not truly racist.

That is what the white man’s burden is about: white people are not the biggest robbers and killers the world has ever seen. No, they are helping to uplift mankind!

That is why some white allies are paternalistic and controlling: their well-meaningness is driven by racism: They want to think of themselves as anti-racist, so they do anti-racist things, yet their racism makes them think white people know better and should help the less fortunate.

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I read your blog daily and really enjoy it.
I’ve got a question re: this qoute —-> “No, racism is the very thing that allows them to benefit from an unjust society while still thinking of themselves as – well-meaning.”

What should white ppl do who are truely well meaning to change things? I think the obvious answer is stopping being racist but can you elaborate on actionalbe steps? b/c when I call someone out about being racist I have a hard time explaining to them how to change. Thoughts?

Not the behaviour of a clueless innocent. Deep down they know just what the deal is and what their dirty, ugly part in it is.

You’ve expressed this particular theme on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, it’s generally erroneous. From my observations, the vast majority do not feel any personal sense of guilt.

Perhaps you think white people ought to feel guilty, but that does not prove or imply that they actually do. Few people (regardless of place or culture) feel any personal guilt as a result of the actions of others.

There’s no such thing as well meaning whites.
To mean well is to HONESTLY wish and want well for your fellow man.
The majority of whites do not.

This is a cover up for their prejudice so it doesn’t look bad:
At work
At home
In front of friends / family
In front of the children, ( this is a BIG one).
To themselves, expect in the darkest place in their basements.

Most whites would be more than happy if we were back in chains.
Most would never admit it.
But deep down they know it’s true.

The only reason why some whites put on airs is purely political. It LOOKS bad to be racist. It carries a bad feeling and tone.
Never mind that it IS bad but the LOOK is more important than the actual thing.

I’ve learned that whites feel no guilt about the past and how they benefit from it.
They ENJOY ( secretly ) the doings of the past BECAUSE of the power it gives them.
White man’s burden is a myth.
The white man feels no burden to anyone but himself.

” Helping ” out the poor, downtrodden coloured folks, of any race, is just another excuse to portray us in a needful, poverty-stricken way. We need them, so they are in fact needed.
If the “burden” was indeed true, why not help out ALL your fellow men, regardless of colour? Why travel to Africa to feed starving children and put the documentary on TV? Why not just do it and not PORTRAY that you did it?

The best thing growing older ever did for me, is opening my eyes to the ways of the ” well-meaning white.

I’m white and I agree with what you say. I’m always appalled when my friends bend over backwards to be nice to someone who is black, because they are black. One of the best books I’ve read about the phenomonen of wihte racisim is KILLERS OF THE DREAM by a white woman Lillian Smith, who was an activist/writer in the 1940s! She explores the history and pschology of white racism. Has great insight on the mammy stereotype. Alas, she also presents her racist side too. It is so ingrained. I’m always startled when it rises up in me.

” Helping ” out the poor, downtrodden coloured folks, of any race, is just another excuse to portray us in a needful, poverty-stricken way. We need them, so they are in fact needed.
If the “burden” was indeed true, why not help out ALL your fellow men, regardless of colour? Why travel to Africa to feed starving children and put the documentary on TV? Why not just do it and not PORTRAY that you did it?

I recall one white co-worker saying she wanted to sponsor a child in Africa because she was very moved by a celebrity who cried over the plight of these children while asking for support. I don’t know why she even bothered to tell me. Did she want a cookie?

As a white person, I can honestly say that racism has been a part of almost my entire life. It began when I was sent to school as part of the model city federal program of the 1960’s. I remember the crumby books, the crappy paper, we went to school in a very clean dump, with some really weird, strange teachers that can hardly be described in one comment. I knew that the teachers were treating the black kids differently then the white kids, in discipline, and in expectations. It was a complete shock to me when I went to a white middle school, where there were computers, omg!, nice books, good teachers, small classes, a locker instead of a cloak room.

Still, I know I harbored and still do harbor racism inside me. All I have to do is go on you tube and google the cartoons that I probably watched as a child, such as “Lazy Town Landing” to understand how we all absorb racism.

I was lucky to have parents who actually did a lot of things that were right which I am not going to detail here except to say that how they acted was never because they were anti-racist or anything like that. They just believed in justice.

I don’t think your average white person has any clue to feeling guilty or anything like that. We are mainly asleep to understanding the effects of racism.

I don’t feel any guilt, but honestly, when I first started the journey of unraveling myself, I felt guilt and total depression, just sat there some times and ruminated.
That probably does not happen with most white people, so I do understand how lucky I have been, and have come to agree more and more, since really reading here, that most white people really are racist, and also in denial, or, in a deep coma of detachment from truth. I just don’t want to believe it at times, but then, there it is.

I don’t want to be paternalistic, and I do make efforts to self-examine, but it’s never gonna happen that I will be perfect. I spend my time here because I want to never stop the process of unlearning, or slipping back into denial.
Sorry if this is too long but I needed to think about my own in role in “well meaning” and this is a good start for me.

I think this is good that you are examining yourself and your attitudes. No matter one’s background self reflection is never easy because many times some very unpleasant and ugly things appear. Humans have a tendency to think they are better than what they really are. I hope that you share with other whites what you have learned. It seems like whites only listen to other white people about anything let alone racism.

I think that it is a topic among many that needs to take place in this country. Sadly, instead of having a thoughtful national conversation, it becomes a wedge issue every four to eight years that is used by conservatives to disenfranchise minorities (ex: The southern strategy used by Republicans).

My observations are that labeling and classification persist in order to maintain the fleeting good ole’ boy systems that allow a minority to hold on to power and influence as globalization and interconnectivity through the web grows.

Racism, whether direct or indirect, is the core issue of our decaying society and gives rise to the “country club mentality” and civic isolationism.

White man’s guilt and burden died along with civic participation at the end of the 70’s, early 80’s with the rise of Reaganomics and the neoconservative movement. I cringe whenever I hear someone mention how Reagan was such a great politician, when in fact, he was nothing more than a vapid salesperson.
He, along with others made whites feel good about themselves by distorting the truth and perpeptuating myths like that of the “welfare queens”.

The effects of the caste system brought on by the persistent racism that exist in this country are visible to one and all. It is why cities like Detroit have such high rates of crime and unemployment and also why red states, particularly those belonging to the former confederacy, are cultural and economic wastelands.

As a white person, I want to try to understand and be as honest as possible. I often get odd stares or laughter when I try to discuss such important issues with other whites. I feel that the lack of desire among many to educate themselves along with a glossing over, or fear mongering from our leaders about said issues allow all of us to continue to live comfortably in a slumber while remaing willfully ignorant.

I also cringe when Reagan is mentioned as a great president.
It takes an honest mind to admit that racism is indeed the core of this country’s demise.

I’ve learned that poor, uneducated whites will often vote or side with the opposite of their best interest due to racist factors. This is being proven now with Obama being called the Welfare President.
It goes back to the statement, ” We may be poor and long suffering but at least we’re not black.”

The laughter and strange looks you get from other whites comes from their discomfort of having to own up certain qualities the know they possess.

I feel, honestly, that the damage has been so great, so deep and so ingrained, that there is no force strong enough to reverse it.

The movie of the great White bwana riding in on a White horse to save the poor downtrodden nonWhite is not just in “The Help” or “The Blindside”. You also see it in “Dances With Wolves” and “The Last Samurai” (where the evil white oppressors are substituted with the Japanese peasants) and “Avatar” (where the poor downtrodden nonwhites are replaced by very tall blue aliens). One of the major underpinnings of this storyline is the White Hero comes from somewhere else to rally, lead, and ultimately become part of the downtrodden nonWhite, shedding his White past. Relief of white guilt at it’s finest. The wholly unsurprising thing is this virtually never happens in real life. Well-meaning white people—those white people who are the softest on crime, the most pro-school bussing, the most celebratory of multiculturalism, the most tolerant of deviant behavior as “cultural differences”, the biggest promoter of govt-funded social programs, the most fervent believers that our strength is our diversity—live in affluent suburban enclaves (or Vermont) miles from the nearest nonwhite. They shop in Whole Foods, take yoga classes, sort the cardboard from the aluminum and the #1-#7 plastic in their recycle bins, take part in the SLUTwalk or PRIDEfest, and then sip their lattamochafrappaccinos in a WiFi-enabled Starbucks while typing on the laptop about how horrible the police crackdown in some faraway city is racist for promoting a negative image of young African-American men. Fine for school bussing from one neighborhood to another as long as it’s not THEIR neighborhood. Fine for public housing to be built in that Italian or Irish or Polish neighborhood in that faraway city, it’s not like it’s being built here in whiteopia. Fine for hug-a-thug judges and lenient prison terms when the law enforcement you protest against keeps the criminals far away from them. We white liberal apologists don’t have to suffer the consequences of the dysfunctional policies we promote. But the person (of whatever color) who points out that we are a bunch of smug hypocrites? THEY are the racists.

“Can you notice the paradox in your reasoning? If there is a “white collective” then it’s reasonable for white people to see themselves as members of a group (“classify themselves as white”).”

****************************************************************

Which so-called racial group classified THEMSELVES as such and continues to?

Why?

Who benefits from these color based arrangements?
(Hint – It’s NOT people of color, despite what many present day white folks say and think!)

Why aren’t the members of this club unsubscribing and leaving their membership and association with whiteness in droves?

Are there any truly white people? …physically or metaphorically speaking?

Again, what is the purpose of whites maintaining this (whiteness) identity?

***********************

I’m glad there are people like Jane Elliott, Joshua Solomon, Peggy McIntosh ..
They are good role models for other whites to emulate. I’m referring to those that are willing to put themselves at risk for the sake of what’s right and what’s true.

***********************

Guilt is an absolute useless emotion – it’s utterly worthless unless it MOTIVATES and CAUSES one to CHANGE.

“I’ve learned that poor, uneducated whites will often vote or side with the opposite of their best interest due to racist factors.”

Sadly, some still think that the American Dream exists, when in fact it is just a myth. Recent studies (unfortunately, I do not have the link) have shown that there is less upward mobility in America as compared to other industrialized nations, specifically those of Western Europe. We are slowly developing into a caste society somewhat similar to that of India.

When we all succumb to fear mongering and willful ignorance of facts brought about by laziness, we get the government we deserve. With those things in mind, it is no strange wonder why a presidential candidate like Newt Gingrich gets the support he gets and is taken seriously.

The reason for the fact that the US has less upward mobility than other countries is due to:

An “us vs. them” mentality
Greed ( pathological)
Fear of change, however good and needed that change may be
Covert racism

It’s crazy to think that two thirds of the world’s population are people of colour but most whites believe that they are the majority.
Travel anywhere around the world and you will see a different mentality / way of life than the one here in the United States.
Mother Teresa once said, ” America is the poorest country she has ever seen.”

The caste system has BEEN underway in the US.
It’s done to keep undesirables at bay so the rich can stuff their pockets and grow fat.

Traveling around the United States on assignment has taught me several things:

1. Whites who believe that they mean well are usually the most racist.
It’s the guilt that motivates them.

2. Most whites would rather die than admit their nature. Keeping up appearances is the foundation of being white.

3. No matter how educated you are, no matter how rich and well spoken, most whites will and DO believe that you are inferior to them simply because you exist.

4.The ones that have true self examination will spend their lives in a constant merry-go-round of despair, depression, anger (at us and themselves), self hate , guilt and over compensation.
Then finally, acceptance.

Straight up i think this post is a little heavy handed. Which has not been the case with 95% of your posts but for me this one is. If you want me to elaborate, i will. If you want me to just stop with that then thats good too.

Moreover, why do white people STILL permit/allow/go along with the classification of others based upon their so-called RACE?

What is the TRUE PURPOSE for these various distinctions/labels based on COLOR?”

The Right questions! Why, in 2012, your government wants/needs to know the color of your skin? Why do any company, office, institution or any other needs to know that?

BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS. IT NEEDS TO KNOW, IT NEEDS TO FORCE ITSELF ON PEOPLE. IT HAS TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK FROM ITS POINT OF VIEW OF EVERYTHING.

Imagine USA where as many as possible would intentionally change their racial status on official documents. Blacks would use caucasian or asian, whites would use black or spanish/latino, or nobody would mark those at all. What would they do? What could they do? Millions and millions of wrong racial identities, wrong racial informations, wrong racial studies etc. That could be nice to see.

I recall one white co-worker saying she wanted to sponsor a child in Africa because she was very moved by a celebrity who cried over the plight of these children while asking for support. I don’t know why she even bothered to tell me. Did she want a cookie?

LMAO!

One thing I always wondered was why is it always kids from Africa that these white celebrities want to adopt as apposed to white kids from their own nation or white kids from places like the Ukraine? Maybe this is a manifestation of white guilt as well.

However, what bothers me more than the fact that these white celebrities are seemingly grabbing as many African children as possible, but the fact that they seem to have these children seen more as “proof pets” than children in front of cameras. It’s as if to say, “Look America! Look at what I have, an African child! Therefore, I can’t possibly have a racist bone in my body! So there!”

I see it like this, if you are white, “well-meaning”, and are working against anti-racism, then the FIRST thing you NEED to do is admit that you most likely ARE RACIST YOURSELF. You have to look inside yourself thoroughly and honestly, face the truth, and admit that IT IS THE TRUTH. White people who claim to be anti-racists have to STRUGGLE which means you have to face UGLY TRUTHS about the society you live in, the people who benefit from that society which will include family, friends, etc, and your own mindset that was taught to you since birth. That is not easy because it will not make you feel good. It’s not about feeling good, it’s about doing what is RIGHT. If you aren’t prepared to struggle, you are setting yourself up for disappointments and emotional pain. Period.

that if you pointed out their mistake the scales would fall from their eyes and they would say, “Wow, you are so right!” But instead you get anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.

try being a white person and correcting a black. its to the point that whites pretty much bite their tongue when they witness black stupidity because blacks are willing to go to the mats over mundane affronts to their ego, unlike whites.

The older I get the more uncomfortable I become at interracial adoption.
Angelina Jolie started the Rainbow Adoption Coalition so now it’s ” in fashion.”
Yes, it does seem that it’s used as proof that they are not racist.

Just like those darn commercials about traveling to _____ ( fill in the blank)
to save those poor folks from themselves.

‘Well meaning whites’ are akin to alcoholics. Like an alcoholic who remains an alcoholic despite when they had their last drink,the racist will always be racist. The ones who admit to themselves that they are racist and always will be, strive to recognize and examine their behaviour in order to be less so. When the alcoholic is in recovery, they learn to recognize triggers which may cause them to start drinking again. The recovering alcoholic learns mechanism to prevent this. The recovering racist does the same thing. There is no such thing as a well meaning white, just as there is no such thing as an alcoholic drinking the odd beer when supposedly in recovery. Once you own up to that and become human, half your battle will be over in regards to racism. Perhaps most prefer to go through life in an alcoholic haze(metaphorically speaking). They have got too much to lose as constantly reiterated throughout this blog.

I don’t think Abraham Lincoln is a good example of a well-meaning white. That would imply that his intention was to end slavery because it was unjust, which is doubtful. There was a disproportionate amount of wealth in the south because of its free labor, and the north was becoming poorer because of it. That was the real justification to end slavery.

I don’t believe most (or even many) whites want to see POC back in chains. Most humans have developed an understanding of human rights, and slavery is a grotesque violation of that. However, I do believe the invisible chains of “less than” are still common and justified (to those who believe such).

In addition, I don’t believe most ‘well-meaning’ whites are intentionally racist. They lack understanding of the systemic racism in this country, as well as the knowledge of their own privilege. After all, how many whites say, “no one handed me anything” whenever privilege is discussed? This shows complete misunderstanding of what privilege is.
They have very little understanding of their part in continuing systemic racism, and like all humans, will become defensive when blame is shifted back on them. That’s why it’s hard to teach whites about racism. You can’t show them racism without showing them their own racism, which will only lead to them needing to defend themselves.

But you can’t really be surprised by their defensiveness. It’s not a white thing. All humans react defensively when they’re attacked.

Not every addict needs to ‘quit for life’ . There are alternative programs available that do work. It all depends on the person.
I disagree with your assessment that all racists will always be racist. This is akin to the idea that “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.”
Humans are quite capable of re-learning behaviors, attitudes, and even processes of thought. One can “retrain the brain.” It becomes increasingly difficult, however, if you don’t remove that person from the environment which first taught him to behave that way.
That doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Chuck a.k.a. Piggy has a habit of crying and moaning about how crazy, stupid, mean blacks are inferior and bad, but apparently get better treatment from the government while poor, good, hard-working, honest whites like himself are being screwed not only by the government but by black people who act stupid, cause trouble, and attack whites for absolutely no reason. That’s his blog and responses in a nutshell.

In Angelina Jolie’s defence she has been to tons of refugee camps. She would have to have a heart of stone not to do something like that. The same with McCain’s wife. Not to say that they are completely unaffected by the stuff brought up in the post.

Madonna, on the other hand, truly does have a white saviour complex. She went to court to take Mercy James from the hands of her still-breathing father!!! The judge bent the law for her. She kicked people off their land to build her school in Malawi! At least that is what I have gathered from the press reports.

“How I know: I used to think most whites were well-meaning but were racist because they just did not know any better – that if you pointed out their mistake the scales would fall from their eyes and they would say, “Wow, you are so right!” But instead you get anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.”

From everything i have read of your work, i am inclined to think that you studied psychology (social psychology) and sociology in university. If i am correct, are you familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance? Aversive ideas about ourselves send us into a drive not unlike thirst or hunger. We have one, consistent idea which is more or less stable and then we experience ideas along the way of life that threaten and challenge that old, reliable idea. We are thrust into a need to correct this idea about ourselves. And as such:

people are motivated to eliminate cognitive dissonance.

Thus, I would reiterate that I do not agree with the premise that people are fundamentally fixed in a state of perpetual racism and discontent with Blacks. I would say that they are unprepared to admit disconfirming evidence in about themself regarding this matter. It is too dystopic to be true. It is a hard reality that others suffered so that you could somehow come out on top. Or that your movie-like fantasy of a life is an illusion. That is mired by others suffering.

So then you have these individuals that buck at the notion that they should be held accountable.

To this end i don’t think they are inherently ugly/malevolent figures. I think their conclusion comes from this sort of cognition where they have to reconcile these painful ideas and are unable to. They do not have the proper raising, education, experience interacting and therefore form a very ignorant and hateful basis to guide their ethnic relations.

In total, i do not see it as a fundamental flaw of whites. I think that whites have a huge burden to bear to try and address historical inequity but i do not think racism is ingrained in their soul. I think we as people are processes and that we develop. Reparations are in order. Apologies are in order. Legal ramifications are in order for white racism. Media education is in order. Public education is in order. Letting out blacks from prison is in order. Forcing whites to give up land and wealth is in order. Especially, those from plantations etc.

There is a lot in order.

However, I think that this notion that they are evil or something not unlike evil that is permanent is a bit heavy handed.

I understand everything you just stated and it was VERY well stated.
May I ask you something?

If whites were not evil minded, why devise a masterful plan to destroy another human being?

Why write laws and bend rules to benefit themselves?

Why perpetuate a false idea by the media, which is owned by whites, to carry out multiple stereotypes?

Why move to another town when undesirables move in?

Why disown your children when they marry black / yellow/ red/ brown?

I understand your need to defend and explain. I appreciate your arguments.
But understand this, until we, as people of colour are on the same wavelength as whites, we will continue to argue against it.

I disagree with your assessment that all racists will always be racist.

I stand by what I say. Whites are ‘addicted’ to their privileges, it is a hard habit to shake. I use the alcoholic as a metaphor, I am not being literal, or making a statement about addictions . It is only when the alcoholic hits rock bottom do they either seek help or sink further. White racism, unfortunately, has yet to reach rock bottom where they will collectively seek ‘help’.

That doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

Perhaps it is not. Nothing is impossible. However, such people who may have an epiphany of sorts are so miniscule that white racism will be here for quite a while as there are not enough to effect meaningful change. One has to willingly seek treatment(whatever the mode), to begin recovery. 95% of whites have no intention of doing this. They wish to keep their privileges and power while being ‘well meaning’ on the surface.

If whites feel no guilt at any level and if they merely become defensive when attacked, then why on God’s green earth do they attempt to excuse slavery!!!??? They keep saying it has nothing to do with them and yet keep on making excuses for it – something that was outlawed almost 150 years ago! Why??!!!?

Or: Why do they feel the need to demonize and put down blacks and find made-up reasons, like watermelon and fried chicken, to laugh at them? There is something wrong going on there. Why is their physical fear of black men all out of proportion?

White guilt makes sense of all of that. The way whites think of themselves does not.

@JT:
Thus, I would reiterate that I do not agree with the premise that people are fundamentally fixed in a state of perpetual racism and discontent with Blacks\\

I felt very sad to read your post, it must be one of my ruminations to feel like crying that you just do not understand.. JT do you realize that you used “people” instead of “white people”. That is perpetual racism.

“try being a white person and correcting a black. its to the point that whites pretty much bite their tongue when they witness black stupidity because blacks are willing to go to the mats over mundane affronts to their ego, unlike whites.”

***************************************

Black people, by no means, have a monopoly on the sort of stupidity you’re alluding to. It really does go both ways. The inverse of your statement is as true as the original! And that’s assuming IF your declaration is true at all!

try being a black person and correcting a white. its to the point that blacks pretty much bite their tongue when they witness white stupidity because whites are willing to go to the mats over mundane affronts to their ego, unlike blacks.

You should know In the unlikeliness that you can’t see/won’t believe … this doesn’t make the above correction any less true.

Nope, they ain’t going to willingly give it up. Even the poor whites are brain washed into thinking that as long as they cling to their whiteness, there will always be a chance that they will move up; after all they are WHITE! Sort of like the white version of the ‘bootstrap myth’. They will believe this despite the plethora of studies available out there claiming the contrary.

“Which so-called racial group classified THEMSELVES as such and continues to?”

Nobody has ever been able to decide what their kind (race, ethnicity, etc.) is. That is determined by other people – how they perceive us. The core of the modern classification systems was created by people who we call white, but individually white people were not given the power to classify themselves. Certain whites grouped the kinds and created labels for them. They did not create the kinds.
If you believe I am wrong, tell me how does a person become white.

“Who benefits from these color based arrangements?”

Generally white people.

“Why aren’t the members of this club unsubscribing and leaving their membership and association with whiteness in droves?”

Because that is practically impossible..
Do you expect white people to severely alter their appearances through medical procedures?

“Are there any truly white people? …physically or metaphorically speaking?”

Nobody is objectively white – I hope this answers your question.

“Again, what is the purpose of whites maintaining this (whiteness) identity?”

That is not a choice.

“I’m glad there are people like Jane Elliott, Joshua Solomon, Peggy McIntosh ..”

What have they accomplished? I’m not questioning the fact that they have accomplished something – I want you to name it. They haven’t completely stopped being white, have they?

“Guilt is an absolute useless emotion – it’s utterly worthless unless it MOTIVATES and CAUSES one to CHANGE.”

I agree with Randy. Most white people do not feel guilty.

“instead of looking for paradoxes (and deflections) try thinking on these simple questions.”

Unfortunately you do not seem to notice how the paradox I pointed out affects your questions. Seeing white people as a collective instead of individuals makes a huge difference.
Also, you seem to be mixing race, racism and the racial power structure into one thing. I see them as different issues.

“The Right questions! Why, in 2012, your government wants/needs to know the color of your skin? Why do any company, office, institution or any other needs to know that?”

To MAINTAIN & REINFORCE the status-quo!
To continue to marginalize and mistreat (other) people based on color, of course. Because that’s what its always done.

“Imagine USA where as many as possible would intentionally change their racial status on official documents. Blacks would use caucasian or asian, whites would use black or spanish/latino, or nobody would mark those at all.”

That would be REVOLUTIONARY!

Yet, what possible epiphananic or cataclysmic event do you imagine could cause the people who have the most to lose to suddenly abandon the classification they’ve dutifully gone along with for hundreds of years?

I see more hope for the French than I do for Americans. They seem light-years ahead the US when it comes to checking/stopping negative encroachments within their political system. They KNOW HOW to take matters into their own hands – and onto the streets… a trait Americans seem to have lost or forgotten.

Why would anyone anywhere want to give up their privilege? Is your privilege ‘wrong’? Is your privilege of free speech, advanced medical care, and clean water something that you should give up because there are other countries that don’t have them?
Never forget your own privilege when you discuss the privilege of others.

Whites don’t want to give up their privileges anymore than POC do, so that argument is somewhat irrational. “Sharing privilege” is an entirely different matter and finding someone who believes others don’t deserve the same opportunities because of race will be a harder find.
The problem with that is making others aware that those opportunities aren’t as available as they believe. Hence the whole “bootstrap” argument. There are a lot of people who are not aware that there are many don’t have any bootstraps.

@abagond
I’m unsure why you addressed me in your post. I never implied that whites don’t feel any kind of guilt. I’m sure many do, and I don’t doubt that guilt explains much of that behavior.
I only said that I believe many ‘well-meaning’ whites are not intentionally racist. That doesn’t mean they aren’t still racist. They simply lack a real understanding of the issue, which only allows them to continue their racist behavior.

Racism is just another form of xenophobia, something in which every human society is guilty. Colonial imperialism is what gave it the current form (racism). I’m not condoning either, but coming to a better understanding of it from the human perspective will better equip us to combat it.

“I felt very sad to read your post, it must be one of my ruminations to feel like crying that you just do not understand.. JT do you realize that you used “people” instead of “white people”. That is perpetual racism.”

Likewise, i find it sad that i write a three-four paragraph response and your response to everything i say is a condemnation. Explaining can actually improve the conversation. Responding to specific points can actually open dialogue.

As far as the “people” instead of “white people”; yes maybe that was an implicit racism. Maybe i don’t know. Maybe it was just a typo in the midst of trying to articulate a grander idea.

Either way, it was an erroneous choice of words in that particular sentence. Sorry.

If whites feel no guilt at any level and if they merely become defensive when attacked, then why on God’s green earth do they attempt to excuse slavery!!!??? They keep saying it has nothing to do with them and yet keep on making excuses for it – something that was outlawed almost 150 years ago! Why??!!!?

Except for crackpots, I haven’t heard anyone attempting to excuse slavery. However, people do often attempt to frame the situation historically to counter the allegation that white people were uniquely pathological relative to other groups in implementing it.

Abagond said:

Why do they feel the need to demonize and put down blacks and find made-up reasons. like watermelon and fried chicken, to laugh at them? There is something wrong going on there.

Such “demonization” appears par for the course in societal relations, and race need play no role. Think of it like a fractal, a pattern which repeats itself at every magnification.

You’ll find the same thing among people of the same race but different ethnicity, same ethnicity but different tribe, same tribe but different clan, etc.

I identify as white because I am raced as white, I am racist because I am white. My body encodes me with all the privileges that white skin entails—when I first started trying to understand racism it was all about me, I wanted to be “post-racial” and to break through the racism that was soaked into my soul. As I got further into understanding the ways in which being white has distorted my life view I saw layers of my past and realized just how racist I was and the tremendous privilege my unchecked racism gave me of not having to realize I was white. I started to get depressed and even to the level of suicidal when I realized that my racism would never go away. Then I realized how narcissistic I had been the whole time and even if I could wake up one day and never have a racist thought in my head again the lives of People of Color would be no better. I had thought all about myself, all the time in my supposedly anti-racist journey and then I realized that white people, such as myself, have been using black people for centuries to build their self image and my anti-racist journey was no different. The overall goal was for me to rebuild the shattered self-image i had when I realized I belonged to a people that ruined the whole world and had nothing to do with eliminating racist institutions and improving the lives of People of Color. I am white and I am on the wrong side of history– I will lay down my life for the cause of racial/social justice because my White Mind will never be post-racial. White People don’t know how little they know–it is incredibly limiting to be monocultural and be indoctrinated into a false sense of superiority. Abagond’s article on projection resonated so much with me—everything white people ever said about black people is truly what white people are themselves. Rapists, thieves, murderers, uncultured, homophobic, incapable of orignial thought, etc. White people are a joke and they don’t even know it.

One example: USSR. In 1989 nobody, not even the ones who saw it coming, could have predicted that the mighty Soviet Empire is really going to dissappear. Not one soul. Even the best were thinking that there will be some terrible civil war, perhaps nuclear war etc, when it does collapse. And what happened?

It keeled over in roughly two weeks. Yes, there were shootings, tanks, threats, war in Tshetshenia, wars in Caucasus etc. BUT not in Russia or Baltic or Ukraine or Belorussia. The Soviet opressive system was geared up to meet armed resistance, armed revolution, they even tried to provoce such response, but what happened?

People just decided that enough is enough. They just told the whole system get lost. Just like that. Balts told Moscow that they were going their own way, what ever Moscow was thinking about it. Moscow send in special forces, they send in KGB provocateurs, they did this and that, but eventually it was useless because the people simply said: No thanks. What could they do? Even the soldiers said No thanks.

Yes, there were politicians who took advantage of the situation and jumped on the new band wagon to save their careers, but they could have not done it without the people. When Boris Yeltsin walked on the stage in the Soviet Communist Party congress and simply told Gorbatchev that Russia is leaving the USSR (and wiping it off from the face of the earth), he knew that he had the backing of the people who were already doing it on the streets etc.

When there was the last attempt by the military junta to regain the Soviet empire, the whole thing collapsed in few days because the people told them stuff it. The hundreds of tanks send into Moscow turned their guns and protected the Russian parliament instead doing what they were told to do: take it over. Why? Because the soldiers were people too.

No, things are not fantastic in former Soviet republics, People are not happy campers, paradise did not come, BUT the opressive dictatorial System is gone. It was done by the people. People, who had lived all their lives in that System, who had been brainwashed by the System from their birth on wards. People who had been subjected to propaganda day and night, 24/7, year after year, decade after decade.

This can be done to the racist System too. USA or any other country is not on another planet. Granted, the propaganda and the System is more subtle, more devious, more clever, but it is there. It can be brought down. That is why this blog and others like it are so important. That is why comments by Herneith, Brothawolf, Matari, Leigh and all the others are so important. They are showing this System, high lighting it. Exposing it. And once it will be naked for all to see, people can bring it down and mark my words, one day they will. Perhaps not in our life time, perhaps not in our childrens life time, but it will come down, just like all the other Systems that we were told to be eternal.

This may be ridicilous hippie dream, funny and childish, but think about this: once one guy decided that he was going to liberate his people simply by sitting down and talking. And he took on one of the most powerful opressive forces in the history of the planet. Yes, that guy was Gandhi and the System was Brittish Empire in India. And we all know how that ended for the brittish.

Despite all the different kinds of people who have come to America, the level of dehumanization of blacks goes way beyond that of anyone else except Native Americans. This is not about plain old “us and them” or ordinary tribalism that you see in most human societies. It goes way beyond that stuff. Blacks are dehumanized to a degree that ordinarily is done only to military enemies and not even always then.

You said no such thing. Maybe somewhere in your brain it was connected to the post but it was not apparent in what you wrote. But then again your comments are so jargon-bound it is hard to tell what you are saying half the time.

Ah, yes. Another Catch-22 trap for the evil whitey. They’re either a racist that hates blacks or they’re well-meaning and still racist. They won’t give up their “whiteness” and all the privileges that come with it even though the only way to do that would be to do a reverse Michael Jackson or something. If they want to help, they’re racist, if they want to harm they’re racist, and if they just want to hide and be left alone, they’re still racist. Thus, no matter what they say or do, they lose (at least in your head). The only possible redemption is to come to the Church of Agabond and cast oneself at the feet of those mighty prophets who know exactly what it is whites think, and what they should think and feel guilty about.

The irrationality of some of the posters here is seemingly endless. Creating a Catch-22 that exists only in your head for someone else is never going to change anything, nor should it. You can rant day and night until you die and it won’t make one tiny bit of difference, people like sam and Stephanie notwithstanding.

I hate to break the news to you, but most whites don’t spend a single moment in a day thinking about blacks or any other race including white. They’re thinking about the kids, the wife/husband, the bills, the boss, the economy, the failing car, and failing health – life. Other things contend for a very small piece of what’s left in the head.

We sponsor a child in South America. She happens to have the same name and birthday except for year as my daughter.

“Despite all the different kinds of people who have come to America, the level of dehumanization of blacks goes way beyond that of anyone else except Native Americans. This is not about plain old “us and them” or ordinary tribalism that you see in most human societies. It goes way beyond that stuff. Blacks are dehumanized to a degree that ordinarily is done only to military enemies and not even always then.”

***********************

Speaking of military enemies, I’m reminded of that scene in HBO’s production, The Tuskegee Airmen, where the train’s conductor ordered the black “American” men off of the railroad coach car and on to a cattle car so that some boarding “white” German POWs could have their seats.

Clearly, white German POWs – during WAR TIME – TRUMPED black AMERICAN MEN en route to defend America. That was one of the most compelling scenes re the depth of racism I’ve ever witnessed in cinema!

Excellent article as always. I can see many people I know or have known in your description. Sometimes I like to believe people are just ignorant and that perhaps I can bring race up, but, judging from my experience, I may well get the same reactions.

that if you pointed out their mistake the scales would fall from their eyes and they would say, “Wow, you are so right!” But instead you get anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.

Abagond, have you written any articles on these typical responses from White people when their ignorant/racist behaviour is pointed out to them?

I understand everything you just stated and it was VERY well stated.
May I ask you something?

If whites were not evil minded, why devise a masterful plan to destroy another human being?

Why write laws and bend rules to benefit themselves?

Why perpetuate a false idea by the media, which is owned by whites, to carry out multiple stereotypes?

Why move to another town when undesirables move in?

Why disown your children when they marry black / yellow/ red/ brown?

I understand your need to defend and explain. I appreciate your arguments.
But understand this, until we, as people of colour are on the same wavelength as whites, we will continue to argue against it.

No personal attack here.
Just truth, as my name states.

///

Thank you for the response. I don’t have explanations for racialization, slavery, institutionalized discrimination, white flight, disowning interracial marragies, police brutality, racial profiling, hate crimes, murders. It is all abhorrent and has been swept under the rug by whites.

That being said, i have an obligation to do right by people. Because that is my choice and that is what i feel.

That means i listen to Black people.

That means i learn from Black people.

That means i respect Black people, and if i do something that shows that i don’t then it is my job to try and improve myself so that doesn’t happen again.

That means i respond to whites when i see ignorance and racism. I don’t just bite my tongue.

And a million more things.

My point from the beginning (and Abagond has responded to this) is this idea of evilness. I don’t subscribe to that view of the human animal and so i would just restate that. I think people are processes and can change. For the better and for the worse.

Can white people stop being white? No.
Can they work against racism and to change the racial power structure? Sure!
Is that going to destroy the concept of race? No, but it can change it.

@Abagond

Here we go again….

“Despite all the different kinds of people who have come to America, the level of dehumanization of blacks goes way beyond that of anyone else except Native Americans. This is not about plain old “us and them” or ordinary tribalism that you see in most human societies. It goes way beyond that stuff.”

What is it then and where did it come from?

Last time I asked about that you didn’t seem to notice how important this question is. The idea that “us and them” and tribalism do not explain white racism is a conclusion. The fact that you cannot explain what led you to it suggests you have reached it through irrational means. Evidence implies the conclusion. In your case you have a conclusion but you cannot point out the evidence.

I’ll try another approach – do you know what Occam’s Razor is? I bet you do. Can you see how the statement/explanation “white racism is a consequence of ‘us and them’ and tribalisms” is simple? Can you see how your explanation is more complex because it introduces what you used to call “something else”, a factor you cannot define. The burden of proof is on you. You need to be able to say what “something else” is and how come is it separate from “us and them” and tribalisms for your explanation to be as good or better than the simple explanation.

Stage #1 is the us-and-them stuff. The n-word is two stages beyond that.

“Us and them” and tribalism alone cannot account for genocide. There is “something else”. Otherwise genocide would be way more common than it is. Marie Antoinette’s ancestors in France, for example, would not go all the way back to the ice age. There would be no regional genetic stability across thousands of years like that.

Of course white people can stop being white. What were they before some slick wealthy American colonialist’s light bulb turned on in the 1600s and decided to call all Europeans “white” folks to give themselves a favored/special/privileged status? They were known or called by their religion, ethnic background or country of origin.

Even the article in which you state is, “Nothing I haven’t heard before…” poignantly lays out the logic of how white people can cease to be white.

Sam’s idea could work – if only enough white Americans possessed the mettle to revolt/work against the tyranny/racism that affects us all – just by how they fill out forms and questionnaires re race.

Any willing white person could simply deduce – rationalize – that they aren’t really white because of any number of reasons – if they wanted to. People find all sorts of ways to do what they truly want to do. In the USA folks are permitted to SELF-IDENTIFY as whomever they choose.

It all boils down to whether whites will do what’s best for them as “whites” or what’s best for all of us – as “humans.”

No one has to be white. Anyone can leave the club if they choose to. Yes, they will still look and seem white – BUT – if “enough” white people behave/act in ways that are NOT typically WHITE, the club will eventually crumble.

I have to ask, why do you spend so much time explaining how/why Whites are racists? It is certainly worth pointing out don’t get me wrong. I don’t agree fully with everything you say but I have learned a lot from your posts. I think most of us get it now. Why not spend more time explaining how Blacks can and need to be more self-reliant and improve our own situation without the help of Whites? Let’s have some more talk about that instead of hoping Whites see the error of their ways. We can’t wait on them to “do the right thing” when it comes to Blacks.

“No one has to be white. Anyone can leave the club if they choose to. Yes, they will still look and seem white – BUT – if “enough” white people behave/act in ways that are NOT typically WHITE, the club will eventually crumble”

Please, do go on here. Talk more about “acting white” and how if I don’t act white I can leave “the club”. Does “acting white” mean trying to do well in school, and having career ambitions outside the music, sport, and street retail industries? If you stop “acting black” what happens to you?

I very seldom direct my comments to seriously clueless white people. I usually engage those white people who demonstrate they’re trying to listen and believe what blacks and other PoC are saying re matters of race.

Therefore, I have nothing to say or explain to you.
This blog, evidently, isn’t for you. You’re beyond the reach and intent of what’s being done/said here. Why not hang out somewhere more to YOUR liking and beliefs? Your voice HERE amounts to background noise and squealing, nothing more.

You seem to confuse “seriously clueless” with “rational”. You may well believe what you are saying and I can believe that you believe, which doesn’t increase the value of what you believe in the slightest. Making statements about how whites can stop being “white” by acting in ways not “white” are valueless.

You have nothing to explain as there IS nothing to explain, any more than my daughter can “explain” why and what she crayoned on the wall.

Most commenters have no trouble understanding me. But it seems like on every thread about race there is always some white person, like you, who, despite their university-level vocabulary, misreads the post.

I have enough experience with commenters to tell the difference between bad wording on my part and wilful misreading on theirs. You are the latter and an excellent example of how insincere many supposedly well-meaning whites are.

I don’t think you understood my point and it’s a shame that you didn’t. Let me say it more clearly: I DON’T CARE WHAT YOUR RESPONSE IS! What I care about is figuring out how we can be more self-reliant and control our own destiny. I have seen the same type of response from your ilk for rational and irrational positions alike. It makes no difference what we say to Whites because “doing the right thing” will not be in your self-interest so you will never want to do it.

While attending Black-horse-only-evening-shows-for-the-benefit of -handicapped-riders-and-drivers in your breed fitting yachting clothing, agreeing better with your skin than with the pale skins, people will admire your hair and wonder whether they can ask you after your beauty secrets so they can give their horses the same silky, black shine.

@JT,
I apologize for writing my comment to you in a tone of condemnation.

JT, when you wrote your comment, it sounded to me as if you still think in terms of white as default and normal, and black as other. I hope you understand that while you have the best of intentions and I know you are well meaning, and want to be good, we as white people need to be able to see all of us here in this virtual room as people first, on an equal ground of respect and honor, without whiteness. it just becomes more damaging and is the subject of this blog post, well meaning intentions, wanting to be good, without admitting that we are trained to think of white as the default.

JT said:
” My point from the beginning (and Abagond has responded to this) is this idea of evilness. I don’t subscribe to that view of the human animal and so i would just restate that. I think people are processes and can change. For the better and for the worse. ”

I respect the fact that you do not believe in the idea of evilness.
Yes, people can and do change.

I, on the other hand, do believe in evilness.
It has been created since Cain murdered Abel.
Evilness appears in not just the action but the thought process.
I can attest to the many thoughts, that became words, that became actions, that proved to me the evilness of many whites.

I have changed myself.
A lot.
I used to believe that the world was fair and just.
I used to believe that my education was the right tool to get me the right job.
I used to believe that if I don’t judge others by colour, the same must be true for me.

I was wrong.

Having brown skin is seen worse than a curse.
Having brown skin with intelligence AND education…well…now…you’d better learn to sleep with one eye open.

But you are certainly entitled to your opinion here.
We just disagree.

I would also take the chance to posit that Dave Lister is what we call a chronic “Know-it-all.” He thinks he can write the book on what it is to be black in America so he doesn’t need to hear anything that you have to say.

What i would say to Dave is something we learn very early in life: “Put your listening ears on.” Accept that you know $hit-all about race relations.

At that point you will begin to absorb information that might prove very educational for you. You might even have something accurate to say. Who knows!

There used to be a foster program set up for children of pregnant female inmates in the Philadelphia Prison System. The inmates (hookers, junkies, petty thieves), pregnant for the sixth, seventh, or eighth time, would go back into jail to have the babies. An informal network placed the babies in the foster care of Amish families in Lancaster County. The Amish received no payment for their services, and on visiting day you’d see the little Black and PR kids in broad-brimmed hats and sugar-scoop bonnets, all bright-eyed and well-mannered coming to see their biological mothers. If the mothers didn’t recover the kids could be completely adopted by the Amish.

When the Philadelphia DHS got wind of this arrangement holy hell was raised. CULTURAL GENOCIDE, screamed the Black bourgeousie and the guilt-ridden white liberals. The Amish are indoctrinating these children of color into a culture of self-hate, they said. The program was immediately halted. 31 Black and PR children remain in the Amish community in Lancaster. The Philly DHS has been unable to yank these children from the only families they have ever known.

So remember as far these folks are concerned, it is racist for these children to be a given a chance in life. Better for them to lost from the womb into a nightmare of abuse, drugs, grinding poverty, and death. They’ll know they’re Black, and THAT’S what really matters.

If whites were not evil minded, why devise a masterful plan to destroy another human being?
Why write laws and bend rules to benefit themselves?
Why perpetuate a false idea by the media, which is owned by whites, to carry out multiple stereotypes?
Why move to another town when undesirables move in?
Why disown your children when they marry black / yellow/ red/ brown?

These are excellent questions, but they also imply that this is solely a white problem. In America, it is because whites are the dominant ruling group. Take a global perspective, though, and you discover many groups that act the same.
May we take a look at the Far East?

Do you believe the Japanese are ‘evil-minded’? They have, after all, devised masterful plans to destroy the Chinese and Koreans.
The Japanese have written and bent rules to benefit themselves (especially upon invasion to China and Korea).
They have perpetuated false ideas by the media, owned by Japanese, to carry out multiple stereotypes.
They move when the undesirables (non-Japanese) move into town, but more often, they just keep the undesirables from moving in.
They disown their children when they marry non-Japanese (including whites).
Maybe you wish to think of this as different because Chinese and Japanese don’t fit the socially constructed definition of ‘race’. That’s true. In fact, these are examples of systemic xenophobia, which is what racism is. Do you believe racism is worse than other forms of xenophobia?
What about the systemic xenophobia against muslims in India? Against the tibetans in China? Against the Slovaks in the the Czech Republic? Against the Tutsi in Rwanda? None of these are examples of whites against POC, and yet it’s the very same actions and principles. You could blame whites if you wish, but in the case of the Japanese, they’ve been doing this long before The Black Ships ever appeared.
So why is it only whites are ‘evil-minded’.

“Despite all the different kinds of people who have come to America, the level of dehumanization of blacks goes way beyond that of anyone else except Native Americans. This is not about plain old “us and them” or ordinary tribalism that you see in most human societies. It goes way beyond that stuff. Blacks are dehumanized to a degree that ordinarily is done only to military enemies and not even always then.

I can only theorize, but blacks have been the main minority force that has been of any threat to white power. As the biggest threat, you receive the worst treatment. This keeps the other minorities in their place, as well.
Please do not forget the levels of dehumanization of the Chinese and Japanese as well, particularly during the expansion of the west.
Might I also point out, that the Japanese have been the only American citizens to lose their rights after obtaining them. One threat from a country they no longer belonged to and the rights of Japanese-American citizens were stripped from them completely. Those families lost everything. The internment is nothing to scoff at. It was a threat to all Americans, and a message that any one of us, at any time, will lose our rights granted to us by the constitution and the bill of rights, should the government deem so (Patriot Act; NDAA).
That being said, this “something more” that you talk about doesn’t just happening in America and it’s not just perpetuated by whites. It is a global problem perpetuated by those in power in a desperate need to maintain that power.
This is not a defense of whites or of those actions. It’s a call to understand it as a human condition. When we better understand the disease, we are better able to treat it.

White people are in a bind that they don’t know how to get out of. If they try to do good in relation to black people, they have suspect motives. If they act hostile towards us, they’re just a typical white person. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Why is this the case? Everything that whites have came from the enslavement of african people on this planet…Everything! In order for whites to maintain the status-quo, they have to continually brainwash black people to hate themselves and self-destruct. Whites know the greatness of “Mama Africa” and her children, They Know! If we ever discover the greatness of our ancestry, whites and others will never be able to enslave us again. This is why black people are still dealing with racism from white people. “White Fear” is the correct term. Whites fear that blacks will destroy them and their race if they ever free their minds, this is the irrational fear that most whites have. Think about it sistas and brothas? You’re a minority on the planet that has power because your ancestors enslaved another race that is larger in population, Racism against the victimized group is the difference between existence or no existence at all. Meditate on this point black people, if black folk were in the same boat as whites, what would we do to keep from being rolled over so to speak?

Appreciate the feedback brotha. Like you said, whites don’t wanna acknowledge the fact that their existence on this planet has been a bold-face lie…Real Talk! They wrongly assume that continuing to lie about what was done to african people will allow them to “Skate By” so to speak…Wrong! Whites need to realize that, It’s not about them, It’s never been about them. Black people can’t and won’t be held back regardless of how much they attempt to maintain their stolen power and wealth. Karma is a bitch as the saying goes. Stay True blackman!!!

Everything that whites have came from the enslavement of african people on this planet…Everything!

I feel extremely marginalized by this comment. “Everything” you say?
The Americas were stolen from the blacks? The railroads were built by the blacks? South America was built by the blacks? Currently the world gets its cheap material goods from the overworked, underpaid, child labor of blacks? Britain and Spain increased their wealth from the blacks? Britain obtained all their colonies from the blacks? Hong Kong was stolen from the blacks? Rome was built by the blacks? The Roman Empire stole its territory from the blacks?
Need I go on?

Marginalizing other groups accomplishes nothing. The oppression olympics is a detestable game.
I understand that this is a blog mostly for and about blacks, but Abagond is inclusive of other POC and their subjugation. I wish others would not forget about us, either.

I understand, and living in America, whiteness is my opposition as well.
It is not the actions, currently or historically, of whites that I defend. It is an idea of ‘inherent traits’.
Despite my agreement with much of what Abagond posts, as well as the comments of many of his readers, there is a recurring theme in this blog regarding ‘inherent traits’ of whites. Evilness being one of them.

As a scientist, I simply cannot believe in such an idea. There is no race gene, nor are there any genes (particularly any connected to skin color) which cause inherent ‘badness’, if you will. In other words, no genes have been mapped to show evilness, propensity for crime, laziness, no intelligence genes have been linked to skin color (which is controlled, not by one, but many genes).
It’s possible that future mapping may change what we know, but I have great doubts that we’ll ever discover traits linked to skin color.

As such, all ‘inherent traits’ are socially constructed, both for POC as well as whites, and it is that idea I feel a need to argue.

When you meet whites at work, at school, on road trips, in the city, in Vermont and in your own backyard who perpetuate the SAME ideas, thoughts, actions, even sentences, word for word, you start thinking ” Am I on television? Is this a joke? Or are whites just THAT ignorant, evil and hateful?”

I know, intellectually, that ALL people are not the same.
I’m not like every other black woman out there.
But, emotionally, you have to wonder.

If you were to get bitten by a german shepard every time you saw one, your reaction would be ” Holy Crap! I’d better stay away from german shepards!”

Same rules apply.
I know that there is no ” evil ” gene.
So how do you account for all the bad behaviour?

Social conditioning?
Brainwashing so profound it cannot be undone?
A conspiracy?

Or maybe, whites DO know right from wrong…but do wrong anyway because they can.

But the problem is the powers that be still control much of what we do.

If I were to open my own business, I would need a bank loan.
If I were to go back to school and try to find a job, I would need someone to give me a chance.
If I were to start a medical practice, I’d need a steady list of patients that trusted my medical judgement.

We are now mostly middle class and better educated than ever before.
So what’s the problem?

We still lack the power needed to make significant changes to our community.

Make no mistake about it, the current high unemployment amongst us is NO error.
This will set us back for years, even a generation if it continues.

The thrust of this post is that there are really no sincere well-meaning white people.

Then you have people like Stephanie and I -white people who are diametrically opposed in our views concerning blacks – and one professes the willingness to die for Abagond’s liberation while the other one warns you of the black collectives’ empirically-verified desire to self-annihilate.

How do you categorize somebody like Stephanie? Unbelievably sincere? A self-annihilator? Crazy?

What about me? Do you think you slander me by exclaiming, “that’s a white Supremacist who thinks he needs to tell
me that I’m cool with my own self-annihilation?”

That’s trying according to the fake rules, the rules that are founded on a lie, that this country is mostly based on merit.

Almost everything you listed doesn’t fall into self-reliance. Bettering yourself maybe, but not self-reliance or reliance on other Blacks. It’s still based primarily on Whites giving Blacks help in order to succeed. Ask yourself, do Whites approach advancement that way? Does the wolf help the sheep?

As a social scientist, I’m always asking the questions, but I am rooted in the natural sciences (the “real” sciences) so my answers need to be steeped in some sort of realism.

How do I account for all the bad behavior? Human instincts. Animal instincts, in fact. Animals are territorial because their survival depends upon it. It’s the survival of their group, not their species. Every group, pride, herd, troop, cell depends upon territory for its survival and will fight any other group of the same species. You do not see troops of apes getting along. They kill each other. Sometimes, they kill and eat each other. That will teach those other apes to stay off their territory. Sometimes a stray ape will be accepted into a troop, but that she and her offspring will often be subjugated, she will have her offspring stolen from her (sometimes killed out of jealousy), she will be beaten, given the least food, etc etc. (This is Goodall’s research)

Not really fair? I suppose not. We humans have consciousness and “supposedly” are able to rise above our base animal instincts. We think we’re better than the animals. We’re above the animals. Therefore we do not see our actions as “instinctual”. We’re not that low.

But humans, regardless of place or time or color, will always separate into groups, and those groups will always prioritize their own survival. At one time the groups were tribal, later they were national, then they were religious, then they were by color; in the future, should we ever rid ourselves of racism, perhaps we will be separated by wealth. Regardless, each group was socially created, and will continue to be so. If it hadn’t been the whites, it would have (and has been) someone else.

Can this not be undone? I think it can. We are, after all, blessed with that self-awareness with which we’re so proud. We have been able to overcome some of our base instincts and move beyond our animal natures. However, we’re still a very young species (in evolutionary terms). It will take time before we ever understand. Hopefully, as our understanding of the universe solidifies, this time will come sooner.

That being said, do whites know right from wrong? As much as any other person they do, and I’ll believe you’ll find many whites who will agree that judging a person by skin color is wrong. What I think is more difficult, is getting them (particularly the ‘well-meaning’ whites) to understand how their current actions continue to perpetuate a system of racism. This is our task at hand.

LOL at the cookie comment! I was taught that when you do something good or nice for someone you shut up about it. You’re not supposed to walk around tooting your horn.

@brothawolf:

Leigh

LMAO!

One thing I always wondered was why is it always kids from Africa that these white celebrities want to adopt as apposed to white kids from their own nation or white kids from places like the Ukraine? Maybe this is a manifestation of white guilt as well.

However, what bothers me more than the fact that these white celebrities are seemingly grabbing as many African children as possible, but the fact that they seem to have these children seen more as “proof pets” than children in front of cameras. It’s as if to say, “Look America! Look at what I have, an African child! Therefore, I can’t possibly have a racist bone in my body! So there!”

For example, take Mother Teresa. She was a very compassionate and selfless woman who helped and served so many poor people, but did she go about and showed the public what she did? No. She was a very private person. Her humanitarian acts spoke for itself. Now when you watch many of those white celebrities in front of the cameras, they look so phony with their “See here. I’m doing my part and so should you” looks. It’s so patronizing.

No it isn’t. You can take or leave what he says. This isn’t an academic tome. If you can’t understand what is being written than that says more about you than the writer. Even if he were to explain what he meant to you until his eyes popped out of his head and his hands fell off, being a contrarian, you would still profess ignorance at what he is writing.

““Us and them” and tribalism alone cannot account for genocide. There is “something else”. Otherwise genocide would be way more common than it is. Marie Antoinette’s ancestors in France, for example, would not go all the way back to the ice age. There would be no regional genetic stability across thousands of years like that.”

I do not see genocide as something separate from “us and them”, because classification is a fundamental component of genocide. In my opinion, genocide is a possible consequence of “us and them”.

Even if genocide is something entirely separate from tribalisms and “us and them” it doesn’t necessarily suggest that your “something else” exists. The statement: “the earliest stage of genocide is extremely common and random circumstances affect the society, the judgment and the morality of individual people, and make them reach higher stages of genocide” explains why genocide isn’t common – because the right combinations of circumstances aren’t common.

Your “something else” makes white racism special, unique in a way. I think you are not going to accept the idea that random chance, circumstances (an economic crisis, a charismatic leader preaching hate, religion etc.) make a society reach a higher stage of genocide. If it’s not random, then what is it and where did it come from?

Why is your “something else” about white people anyway? When you look at the genocides of natives in America you see it as white people killing people of color. Why not, for example, as Christians killing other religious groups?

@Matari

“Of course white people can stop being white. What were they before some slick wealthy American colonialist’s light bulb turned on in the 1600s and decided to call all Europeans “white” folks to give themselves a favored/special/privileged status? They were known or called by their religion, ethnic background or country of origin.”

They looked similar, they had similar languages, religions, traditions, cultures, etc. The similarities had existed before the label “white” was created. The label did not artificially create the similarities – it only gave them a name.

“Even the article in which you state is, ‘Nothing I haven’t heard before…’ poignantly lays out the logic of how white people can cease to be white. ”

No. It’s about white privilege, not being white. As I mentioned before, these are separate issues in my book. Being white is about how you look. How others perceive you. A white person can work to make white privilege less powerful, not to become less white. Without the privilege and the idea of racial superiority being white is benign.

Why is that OUR task? If you are a social scientist, tell me, is that what other animals do? Does the sheep accept the task of getting the wolf to understand?

I apologize for any offense, but I think your response is ridiculous, at best.

Why is it “our” task? Because we’re the ones who want the oppression to end, that’s why. Should we sit around and hope that the oppressors someday gain an understanding all on their own? Should we perhaps rely on prayers to God to end our suffering? Pardon me if I do not sit idly by and rely on others or outside forces to accomplish that which I need.
Or perhaps we could stoop to the level of our oppressors and commit the same atrocities. A white genocide will most certainly end white oppression. Who, then, will take their place? You’re a fool if you believe that removal of white power will leave the rest of us holding hands in solidarity of our equality.

Why would you even ask what the animals would do? Have animals displayed the same level of consciousness and self-awareness that humans have? I would expect sheep (should animals suddenly gain the ability for cognitive thought) to bring awareness to their predators as much as I would expect humans to bring awareness to Giger’s aliens.

We are not the same as sheep vs. wolves. We are not separate species. It would be more akin to sheep getting other sheep to understand. If you prefer to be more evolutionary accurate, ape vs. ape. And not even chimp vs. bonobo. More accurate to say chimp vs. chimp, or bonobo vs. bonobo.
There is a 0.2% margin of difference within human DNA, and you will find a greater margin of difference WITHIN races than you will between them.

Biologically we are all the same, with the same “inherent traits”. Our only differences are socially constructed.

No offense taken. You are obviously intelligent but not very practical (a problem I used to have). My point was a figurative one and not literal based on the cognitive ability of animals or a lack of understanding that we are not a different species from Whites like sheep and wolves. My point was that the likelihood of succeeding at ending this problem using your strategy is about as likely to succeed as a sheep convincing a wolf because like sheep and wolf our agendas are very different.

I think the greatest flaw in your thinking is that you seem to believe the best way to solve our issues is to get Whites to see the error of their ways. It assumes that we cannot advance without them changing because their power is just too great to overcome. I do not believe this. They are not gods and we are not children. We can move forward with or without their permission if we are smart about it and try to understand the real rules to the game and use it to our benefit.

Ok. I understand better what you were trying to infer. Actually, I agree with you. We don’t need the permission of whites nor their understanding to move forward, or up, as the case may be. I’m sorry if I my posts implied that.

I was speaking primarily of the ending of racism. Even as we, as POC, move up, gain power and become the dominant ruling class without the cooperation of whites, racism will still exist. It’s possible that systemic racism may be brought to its knees, but I have my doubts. I believe systemic racism will still exist; we will only sacrifice one group’s ills for another’s.
If we wish for an end to racism, then it is up to us (those that want it ended) to educate others about what it is. And it’s not just the whites who need to learn. There is racism amongst POC, too. We can blame the brainwashing by whites for that, but I prefer a more Marxian approach. After all, poor whites have been brainwashed, as well.
Racism most favors the elite, the bourgeoisie (in America, they all happen to be white). As long as they can continue to encourage us to fight amongst each other, we’ll never be strong enough to fight them. Ending racism and destroying the other socially constructed ‘differences’ will bring us closer to solidarity that we may fight the real enemy whose knee is embedded in our neck.

End of racism? This is what I meant by intelligent but not practical. Did the Jews wait for the end of racism to get their game on track after the holocaust was over? Instead of figuring out how to slay racism in the heart of humanity, how about we work to once and for all overcome oppression of Blacks in this country by depending less on Whites to survive and rebuild the Black culture with healthy and productive habits? Why not work harder at resisting outside interference in our communities in the name of free market capitalism (think liquor and gun stores on every corner), police brutality and drugs everywhere? Do you see any of these things in Jewish neighborhoods?

For example, take Mother Teresa. She was a very compassionate and selfless woman who helped and served so many poor people, but did she go about and showed the public what she did? No. She was a very private person. Her humanitarian acts spoke for itself. Now when you watch many of those white celebrities in front of the cameras, they look so phony with their “See here. I’m doing my part and so should you” looks. It’s so patronizing.

Yea, and looking back it’s messed up that hardly anyone in the West gave a damn about her passing, but was sooooooooo distraught over the death of Princess Diana who died around the same time.

Then become self-reliant and stop supporting the “we could get ahead if only every white wasn’t racist” crowd. They aren’t looking for self-reliance, I don’t think they know themselves what they want other than they don’t want what they have (which is better than most in the world have).

@JT

I know just as little about being black in America as those I mock do about being white in America, the difference being I never comment about being black in America. Catch a clue and pull your lips off – I don’t have anything to say about their experience but plenty to say about mine when it’s under discussion. What I see here are a bunch of babies blaming others (in this case nearly all whites) for their problems and if I believed for a moment they represented more than a fraction of opinions I’d do more than simply mock.

@Herineith

Not slow at all here in the real world – how it it in Fantasyland?

@Truthbetold

I said “most whites”. You do know what that means? Most whites would not bother even to respond to the nonsense that gets posted as profound.

@ wanpimao

“Even as we, as POC, move up, gain power and become the dominant ruling class without the cooperation of whites, racism will still exist.”

What’s funny is that some of you think “POC” represents a voting block. I hate to break it to you but some of the “POC” don’t like other “POC” more than they don’t like “PONC”. “POC” as the dominant ruling class? They already are places where they are the majority. In the US getting elected to any office past state rep requires “cooperation”, not conflict. The term “POC” is a blatant attempt to try and speak for people who haven’t given you the right to speak for them in the slightest.

BTW “South America was built by the blacks?” You do know that slavery in Brazil was at least as big as it was anywhere else in the world, right?

@ Abagond

I think I have your posts pretty well pegged. You have so saturated yourself with outrageous and irrational claims and statements that they have begun to seem normal to you.

Still, who do you think most people in the West was grieving more towards? The death of both women were sad, but I bet dollars to doughnuts more people felt more saddened toward the Princess’ untimely death. I know race played a part in which funeral mattered more in the media and which funeral mattered more to the audience.

Of course it did Brothawolf. That’s the difference between being a young princess and an old nun. How many people know it when a scientist who cured a major disease dies? As many as who knew when Michael Jackson died? I’m sure you knew Steve Jobs died. Did you know Dennis Ritchie died and was more important?

Most of the real work of the world isn’t done in the limelight.

@someguy?

Abagond says “most whites” and means all but a handful that meet with his approval. When I say most whites I simply mean the majority. It’s pretty easy to tell what Abagond means or he’d say “some whites” rather than “most whites” as his preferred figure of inflation when engaging in his exaggerations, cliches, and stereotypes.

Speaking of “mocking”, I find it quite humorous that you are ignorant in your role in all of this. You want to know the reason for your tolerated presence? Simply because you are a shining example of almost everything Abagond talks about in this blog and you are too friggin thick to realise you are being used for our purposes. You and others like “thordaddy” are perfect examples of what White privaledge does to the fragile Human psyche. The professor (Abagond) has given his grand lecture and proceeds to bring out the bag of frozen frogs for us to dissect. YOU are that bag of odious amphibians. We are metaphorically cutting into your dessecated flesh to see your inner workings- the slimy mind of a brainwashed bigot. We learn much from this process and we are grateful for your sacrifice, because you give all the students here a “hands on” education. You help us take theory into practical application.

“Did the Jews wait for the end of racism to get their game on track after the holocaust was over?”

No, they didn’t wait for racism to end. If you’re referring to Jews in America then you need to know the history of them. After they had received monetary reparations from the German government and were subject to a little bit of discrimination from White Americans, they didn’t wait for it to end. They side stepped it by banking on their skin color, which was their trump card. Knowing that they looked just like white Americans at the end of the day, and that blacks were their primary target, Jews were easily able to shift into the background. As a result they eventually pulled America right out from under an oblivious and short-sighted white American’s noses, who were/are blindly fixated on blacks (and now Mexicans and Muslims). Same with Irish, Italians, Polish, and every other white migrant group.

And if you haven’t noticed it yet, Dave Lister is just another knee-jerking white who not only dislikes hearing about dangerous white pathologies, but who also intentionally misses the point of bringing them up. All so he can create Strawman Arguments to steer the conversation in the direction he wants, so he will reach his goal. Which is himself propped up as “the authority of how racism really is”. He’s just not emotionally willing to accept the truth of white faults, so he takes this defensive and argumentative stance. If you stay here long enough, you’ll notice his a common tactic with whites who attempt to vent their anger in a more “mature” (see: passive aggressive and intellectually dishonest) manner, so they come off as rationale.

I agree. Remember when Princess Diana died? She was referred to as “the people’s princess.” Yes, more like white people’s princess. Mother Teresa left a far greater impact to humanity than Princess Diana ever did with her charitable causes.

I see Dave has proved me right already, by suggesting that you should visit another blog, “because this one is wrong”. As if he’s the authority on the issues, the effects, and the solutions to white racism.

Ah, yes, and now we have Franklin making silly claims about “the authority of how racism really is”, speaking of strawmen. I have yet to see any sign of “dangerous white pathologies” that aren’t the exact same intellectual dishonesty as “dangerous black pathologies” (but of course those are the fault of whites as well). What really upsets people like Franklin and Abagond of course is that the intellectual dishonesty they engage in is recognized for what it is: simply racism in the other direction. It’s so much simpler to point the finger at someone else.

When someone else refuses to accept the finger pointing, then one can get smug and accuse the other person of being racist or too dense to understand that you are RIGHT!

Fundamentally however, here isn’t any grand principle being invoked here, but merely unenlightened self-interest. Some are unhappy with their lives, and want someone to blame. An enlightened argument would have traction, but what goes on here has all the future consequences of a circle jerk.

Ah, yes, now we have Dave opening with a “clever” attempt at an “I know You Are! But What am I?” line. When someone knee-jerks and automatically dismisses the finger pointing, despite how correct, it speaks volume towards their character. Which is all you’ve done since you’ve been here. The problem with you comparing dangerous white pathologies and “dangerous black pathologies” is that the latter is mainly supported by skewed statistics, while the former (which plays a major part in the creation of the latter) relies on the simplest of historical and modern day to day examples.

On this blog, there is no “intellectual dishonesty” or “racism in the other direction”. That’s just you maintaining your position of ignorance while you frantically search for a quick label, in order to make disagreeing with it seem less knee-jerky. Which despite your best efforts you’ve still managed to demonstrate, by equating a blog pinpointing and bringing attention to white racism with some mindless “circle jerk”. On top of you (falsely) accusing Abagond of what you yourself are doing, and what I outlined in my previous paragraph, that was yet another example of “white intellectual dishonesty” that I mentioned in my previous post. You’re a joke.

Btw, I had a really funny one-liner involving you being white, the way you argue, and transparency…but I’m opting to take the high road, because it would be a racist comment.

Ah yes, Franklin has mounds of anecdotal evidence for “dangerous white pathologies” as opposed to the gathered (skewed) statistics on “dangerous black pathologies”, while he also so carefully blames those statistics on others just as I knew he would. Since I consider neither set truthful you’re left holding the bag of defending what most people would consider to be intellectual dishonesty.

“On this blog, there is no “intellectual dishonesty” or “racism in the other direction”.”

Apparently you don’t use the dictionary for most of the words in your claims, which is also why you don’t make sense to anyone not speaking in the same code. There are both, and plenty of them on this blog, and it will take more than the say-so of the racists to make that fact conveniently vanish, any more than code words of the white racists make sense to you.

This thread neither pinpoints nor brings to the attention anything but irrationality. It clearly points out that any effort towards a fairer and just society is wasted because merely the effort to achieve such will be seen as racist, as the intended beneficiaries for taking the time to do so don’t like that any better than inaction. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. At this point tell me why I should bother in the slightest with anything other than apathy? With no effort I’ll continue to accrue the benefits of being in the White Club(tm), while as usual not doing anything to keep down the “POC”. My conscious will be clearer than ever knowing that any effort would not only be wasted but rejected. If nothing else I am benefiting from being here for that.

Feel free to post your joke – that you think it is funny alone means you are a racist, right? Is that a surprise?

This thread neither pinpoints nor brings to the attention anything but irrationality. It clearly points out that any effort towards a fairer and just society is wasted because merely the effort to achieve such will be seen as racist, as the intended beneficiaries for taking the time to do so don’t like that any better than inaction. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

I spent two paragraphs giving examples of whites who are well-meaning in the true sense. And they were not throw-away examples either, but people who have made history, some of them even giving their lives. But both you and Thordaddy overlooked that and then misrepresented my opinion. Why is that?

You listed like what, three? And one of those was Lincoln who may have had good motives underneath his public persona but who did not free the slaves out of any documented well-meaning motive. He freed them in an effort to disrupt the Confederacy, long after the war had started, and only in the Confederacy. I don’t have any rose colored glasses regarding the forefathers and heroes of this country, believe me.

Yet you willingly tar with guilt those who may be descendents of freedom riders and abolitionists, or even those whose families weren’t in the country yet all the while giving yourself and other “POC”s a pass. I don’t see you or most of those who agree with you as “well-meaning in the true sense”, so why should your conviction on that particular subject carry any weight?

What have YOU done that gives you the moral authority to pass judgement on who is “well-meaning”? Or for someone else to state with certainty on the subject of “white pathologies”?

Did the Jews wait for the end of racism to get their game on track after the holocaust was over?

No they did not. In fact, they got their own country and became oppressors themselves. Or if we’re looking at the American Jew, they assimilated and helped perpetuate racism.
It’s just as I said, exchanging one group’s ills for another’s.

Instead of figuring out how to slay racism in the heart of humanity, how about we work to once and for all overcome oppression of Blacks in this country…

Yes indeed. How about we put the focus on black communities. I often get the impression, when discussing race relations, that blacks are the only POC that matter. So what happens when blacks get a better life, despite racism still existing? Are you implying that I, and other POC like me, will have a better life as well?
No, I don’t believe that. If blacks conquer white power, they’ll only replace it with black power. How does that help me? How does that really help anyone but blacks?

You may think “ending racism” isn’t a necessary goal, but history has shown us a recurring phenomena in human xenophobia and the human rights atrocities committed because of them.
You think I’m impractical, but I think it’s foolish to believe that humans can have a better life while xenophobia exists.

Your “I knew you’d say that” comment is a very weak attempt to solidify a flimsy argument. There is no special “code” I’m using. Once again, claiming that what I’m saying (which you disagree with) is only understood by a special set of people is yet another example of white dishonesty. That is, unless you meant something good, since you clearly understood it enough to respond to it. Calling all the information on dangerous white pathologies as being merely “anecdotal”, while hinting that the information tallied on blacks and put in reports is “concrete evidence” is just another example of white dishonesty. You can’t help but prove me right with every post you make.

It’s funny that with your opportunistic white indignation, you got all riled up over Abagond saying “whites”, and accusing him of meaning “all” (when he didn’t); because in the same breath you accused me of blaming bad black statistics solely on whites. When I clearly said it was a “major factor”. A.k.a. “most”. You can’t even keep your laughable logic straight! Once again, you’re a joke who’s only interested in creating distractions.

And stop posing as a white person who WAS open minded and has NOW given up on the fight against racism with your “I’m going to take my ball and go home!” nonsense. You’ve consistently proven that you weren’t interested in anything BUT apathy for as long as you’ve been posting your deflecting comments here. And even if you DID have a sudden change of heart, if you need me to hold your hand, then you shouldn’t even be on a blog discussing a concept as complicated as racism in the first place. So I’m only further convinced that you’re just another dishonest white.

Please respond again, so I can dismantle you some more, because this is fun.

I am not any kind of moral authority. I state what I think, see, know and believe. It is up to readers to make up their own minds. I do not have the power to fire, flunk, excommunicate, lynch, brainwash or burn at the stake anyone who comes here. I cannot force my opinion on anyone. There is no Church of Abagond.

Oh, nonsense Franklin. Dishonesty is you putting “concrete evidence” in quotes, when I clearly said I don’t accept either. The fact remains that you merely wish to accept one and deny the other without any rational grounds for doing so. The only thing being proven right is that intellectual dishonesty will be defended to the death by people like you for perceived political benefit. That is so typical of the irrational on all sides.

Yet more intellectual dishonesty is claiming that I said you blamed them “solely” on whites. I didn’t. I said you would blame them on (others) whites, and you did – blame isn’t either or. What is laughable is you think your fabrications make any sense. Do try and learn logic before you try and apply it as you haven’t yet made any sense.

If I thought that you represented a significant body of opinion, Franklin, I probably would be apathetic. In my experience, you are a tiny minority, thankfully, as the world has seen quit enough insanity.

This David Lister seems to be one of those guys who walks into a bar full of outlaw bikers and then starts to tell them what kind of idiots they are and how their use of language is alien to him and demands them to correct their irrational ways and language in order to be the guy who is right.

Same kind of a guy walks into a demonstration and demands everybody there to be rational and go home unless they speak and behave the way he wants and if and when he gets rejected, he is certain that this is a rejection of all the people, other than those who reject him who are minority and do not understand what a brilliant guy he is.

@david lister: Really, man. Learn to read, really read. That is: understand what you read in the context of the reading. You may think you look very smart and intelligent here but what you come out is like a 9 year old who just won the debate competition at his school and now wants to argue with everybody. Bascially, you just want to be right. Thats it.

It has been said thousands of times here that this blog is not to make YOU feel good about anything. It is to make you think, then think again, and then think some more. But, unfortunately, you can not think. You react and for a reason: something hits home. Something is making you feel uncomfortable. Somewhere deep inside you feel something that you do not like, all of a sudden you are no longer so sure. But, like any 9 year old kid, you get angry and start your own show instead of thinking about it. Thinking about it with time and care, for a loooooooong time.

It has been said thousands of times in this blog that the words “white”, “whiteness” etc. do not mean every single white skinned humanbeing on the planet. They have a specific meaning, specially in the context of American reality, and you, my friend, are a living proof that those meanings given to those words are correct and hit home. You behave just like the “White” is supposed to behave in that context. Yes, you are one of those “Whites” this blog is talking about. And that must be burning your behind, judging from your writing.

I don’t agree with everyone or everything here. My responses have been deleted. Sometimes I am misunderstud. Sometimes I don’t get it. BUT heres the thing: I try to think. I try to figure out why somebody would write what they write, what they are saying, what is the meaning of all this, where this comes from. It takes some time and some effort but it makes one understand something. It can even change the way one thinks or believes.

But if you refuse to think and keep acting like angry pre teen who pretends to be a grown up, you will never learn anything. Not about yourself, not about the world you live in, not about the Life. You shut it outside because you wish it would go away and be like you want it to be. And you can keep on going pretending that the world is like you think it is, the way you want it is, all trough your life. But you have been living in a dream, a fantasy, not in a real world or real Life. And that, my friend, will be a terrible loss for you.

Please provide one single quote by me that would evidence an intentional or unintentional misrepresentation of the argument you put forward?

As some point you will have to ask yourself why the Bible is becoming so intriguing while you are still firmly, anti-Supremacy?

And if this belief in anti-Supremacy is coupled with the belief in the “right” to self-annihilate, how can the focus on “white racism” be seen as anything more than a smokescreen to hide the nefarious CORE BELIEFS of the black collective?

Not only do you stand with the black woman and declare her “right” to kill the progeny of the black man, but you genuinely reject striving towards Supremacy and thus evidence an inexplicable desire to descend into degeneracy.

And what’s more degenerate than killing your own, calling it “freedom” and then putting the blame for your descent on some external force AS THOUGH the black man had no agency?

Havent you said exactly the same thing in a round about way on another post relating to ‘How to Write about Black Women?’ In fact, in all of your posts and responses are repetitive and focus on one thing whether or not it is relevant to the question/response or not.

Try to stay on topic. You have stated what you are for, and what you are against but in repeating yourself as though drunk, you have become extremely boring and this will do you no favours and in fact will serve to discredit you. This is coupled with the fact that you are reknowned for your mad rantings on other forums too.

I think its safe to say if you dont change the record and get with it in terms of engaging in what this subject is really about, no-one is going to bother with your ass.

“Please provide one single quote by me that would evidence an intentional or unintentional misrepresentation of the argument you put forward?”

Here:

“The thrust of this post is that there are really no sincere well-meaning white people.”

Which is the same mistake Dave Lister made.

Both of you assume things about me that just are not true. For example, you think I am for abortion. I am not. I think it is wrong. You know I am Catholic, so while that does not prove I am against abortion, it was still unwise for you to assume that I am not.

You think that white people can stop being white because you see them as a group. When you look at an individual it’s obvious they cannot change their race, because it’s not their choice. Our race is what others consider us to be.

“No it isn’t. You can take or leave what he says. This isn’t an academic tome. If you can’t understand what is being written than that says more about you than the writer. Even if he were to explain what he meant to you until his eyes popped out of his head and his hands fell off, being a contrarian, you would still profess ignorance at what he is writing.”

Are basic ideas like Occam’s Razor, the burden of proof or logic too sophisticated for you? These simple tools help people determine what is true and what isn’t. Without them discussing things is pointless. By saying that determining what is true isn’t important, that we can just take or leave what other people say, you are closer to professing ignorance than I ever was.

@LookingForAnswers

“Does it matter what it is? Does it matter why water is wet? Or is it better trying to figure out how to stay dry?”

I think Abagond’s “something else” is important, because he uses it as an excuse to make fundamental statements about white people and racism in general.

Maybe switching the colors will make this easier to notice? A white person says: “the violent acts black people have committed cannot be explained by natural human behavior. Since their behavior isn’t natural ‘something else’, something unnatural must be corrupting their nature and be the cause behind their actions. Maybe it’s their culture or a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children?” I’m pretty sure something like that would raise a few eyebrows and there would be people pointing out the obvious flaws of that though process. When Abagond says those things about white people the lack of justification, the irrationality is largely unnoticed.

If I may use a Star Trek analogy to describe what’s happening here with you.

It seems that the “Borg’s mantra” has captured AND captivated you.
Our efforts here to rescue and restore your mind and soul from “them” are in fact “futile.” We’ve shown you a way out, but you deliberately choose not to SEE or desire it.

You belong to them now – because you choose to go along with your club’s tenets instead of “resisting” them, as some others here are doing. There’s no value to be gained by further contending with you. No amount to proof will change/help you. You’re sealed in this whiteness.

I know just as little about being black in America as those I mock do about being white in America, the difference being I never comment about being black in America. Catch a clue and pull your lips off – I don’t have anything to say about their experience but plenty to say about mine when it’s under discussion. What I see here are a bunch of babies blaming others (in this case nearly all whites) for their problems and if I believed for a moment they represented more than a fraction of opinions I’d do more than simply mock.”

If their [the Black population on this board] opinions represented more than a fraction of opinions of Black Americans what would you do Dave Lister? Get your guns loaded? Lynch? Verbally harass Blacks? Sexually harass/assault Blacks? Physically assault Blacks?

Please elaborate what you would do because clearly you have something in mind.

It is easy to see that you come from a mindset that there is an absolute truth and that the posters at Abagond are missing it. That you can tell Black people that you are free of guilt and that there is a way that that should shine through.

It has not shined through with your words.
It has not shined through with your actions.

You dismiss. You condescend. You threaten.

You refuse to listen.

You are the minority here. That is the real fear.

You fear what that means to your social power. Your historical “truths.”

Well, i think you are right to fear. Because your social power is increasingly limited. Your historical truths are fabricated by white revisionists in order to cast them and the rest of white society in a positive place.

The fabric of your reality is unwinding. Which is why you can’t relent from posting. Because you are grasping to that pattern that proved oh so useful for you for so long.

Submit that your truths are fallacies and you will start to live a more coherent, respectful and consistent life. Otherwise you are running against the rapids.

Everytime Abagond writes a post, I always wait to see how many whites come on here to spew their ” intellectual hatred.”

This blog, in some ways, has been my worst nightmare.
It showed me something I’ve always suspected to be true about most whites.
That they are truly INCAPABLE of owning up to themselves.

It’s almost like a cancer that invades your soul.
But the cancer is contagious and they seem to spread it to each other.

In some ways, I feel sorry for whites.
You, your ancestors and your children have and will inherit a terrible legacy of evil, violence and destruction of ALL men.
That’s no easy way to live life.
That’s where denial begins and ownership ends.

Yes, people may say they wish to be like you but secretly they will hate you for what you have done and continue to do.

As difficult as it may be to be a black female, I’d rather fight every day of my life for equality, than to live as a white person and be regarded as a human scurge.

@jt – usually when people care about an issue they engage in the political process. The rest of your post is of course simply made up nonsense in an attempt to emotionally inflame (as usual). I have never threatened anyone. Running against the rapids? That trickle on my windshield? Historical truths? To which historical truths are you specifically referring? When have I tried to put any in a positive light? And you think others unable to read. Being a minority of the sane bothers me not in the slightest, pal.

@truthbetold – But you ARE regarded as a human “scurge”, as are many blacks, by people of all races. Now what? Do you care? If you do, what are you doing about it? If you don’t, why should I?

@sammy – Please. I’d just as easily spend time trying to understand etc. those on white racist websites. Nonsense from someone non-white doesn’t change it into something else.

You remind me of so many other whites that come here just to antagonize.
Blacks being vilified by others was a white invention because YOU were the villians. Please look up ” projection ” in the dictionary.

I won’t waste my time with you anymore.
I’ve come to the understanding that some people are beyond help.

If you stay here long enough, you’ll notice his a common tactic with whites who attempt to vent their anger in a more “mature” (see: passive aggressive and intellectually dishonest) manner, so they come off as rationale.

You forgot what could be the most important aspect of ‘David Lister’ and his kin(Randy, Thordaddy, etc). That off comical relief! As for the common tactic of venting their anger in a more ‘mature’ and ‘verbose’ manner, that makes it even funnier. Goading them has particular pleasures also, whilst taking a break from household chores for example.

Ah, yes, and now we have Franklin making silly claims about “the authority of how racism really is”, speaking of strawmen

Ah yes, I knew you couldn’t resist responding with your tired tirades. Were you on vacation? Where’s Randy and Thordaddy when you need them? The trifecta of buffoons. I almost miss that cretin no_slapps!

What really upsets people like Franklin and Abagond of course is that the intellectual dishonesty they engage in is recognized for what it is: simply racism in the other direction. It’s so much simpler to point the finger at someone else.

I hear you. I don’t know about Franklin or Abagond. I can only speak for myself. The other day I missed out on a beeeutiful Roots handbag in lime green. The leather was top notch quality! Due to equivocating, I lost out on the deal! The bag sold out! Who did I blame? Why the white man for not producing enough of these bags of course. When I accidentally belch or fart in public, I blame the white man. You are quite right to make that statement. I am still smarting from that lost opportunity!

An enlightened argument would have traction, but what goes on here has all the future consequences of a circle jerk.

You seem to be conversant with pornographic terms. Makes one wonder what it is you are doing with the other hand.

Ah, yes, now we have Dave opening with a “clever” attempt at an “I know You Are! But What am I?” line.

Dave should be asking himself; “Do I know where I am?”

I will respond further but I have a candle party to attend.(One of those proprietary get togethers where they try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge) The thing one does for friends!

On the contrary Thordaddy, I think the whole concept of engaging in discussion on a blog, contributing with clarity and developing a deeper understanding of the subject matter therein, has gone way above your level of comprehension.

Ah, yes. Another Catch-22 trap for the evil whitey. They’re either a racist that hates blacks or they’re well-meaning and still racist. They won’t give up their “whiteness” and all the privileges that come with it even though the only way to do that would be to do a reverse Michael Jackson or something. If they want to help, they’re racist, if they want to harm they’re racist, and if they just want to hide and be left alone, they’re still racist. Thus, no matter what they say or do, they lose (at least in your head).

That is neither stated nor implied by this blog post. Instead of creating a strawman, please address the topic specifically. I don’t believe it is wrong or illogical to question the motives of others. It’s actually the smart thing to do, because people who appear to be your ally can really be an enemy. As to the extent of the “well meaning Whites” phenomenon, well, that seems to be major gripe in your post. Abagond says most, I personally would say many, but no one is saying ALL. If you read into that he really means all, then I believe Abagond has already corrected you. If you don’t believe him then it’s your problem.

The only possible redemption is to come to the Church of Agabond and cast oneself at the feet of those mighty prophets who know exactly what it is whites think, and what they should think and feel guilty about.

Abagond offers discerning commentary on this blog based on his own experiences and what he can infer from the behavior of White people. Is it 100% accurate? Most likely not. But it is the best most non-Whites can go on? Well, considering people like yourself come here to disrupt rather than offer any enlightening insight on the ways of White culture, I’d say yes. We like a “hands on” approach here.

The irrationality of some of the posters here is seemingly endless. Creating a Catch-22 that exists only in your head for someone else is never going to change anything, nor should it. You can rant day and night until you die and it won’t make one tiny bit of difference, people like sam and Stephanie notwithstanding.

There is no Catch-22. It’s in your head. You seem to have a fondness for calling people irrational, as well as pointing out the futility of their efforts. The latter point seems to be based purely in spite. I guess it all depends on who you think we are trying to change. This blog is chiefly for non-Whites to come and learn a thing or two about White culture/people as it relates to non-Whites. It serves as a catalyst for change. This isn’t a place with all the answers. This is a place where awareness is elevated and more questions are born. Of course, White people are welcome, however, no one is trying to change White people. We are raising awareness of issues within White culture that affect non-Whites. As it has been stated many, many times… this blog isn’t written for Whites. I don’t know how many times that can be stated before you understand that.

I hate to break the news to you, but most whites don’t spend a single moment in a day thinking about blacks or any other race including white. They’re thinking about the kids, the wife/husband, the bills, the boss, the economy, the failing car, and failing health – life. Other things contend for a very small piece of what’s left in the head.

I personally judge people on how they act. If most White people don’t think about Black people at all as you have stated, they sure do act like it. But to be perfectly honest, that’s not what the post is about. It is about “well meaning Whites”. In other words, you kind of HAVE to think about Black people for the issue to arise. I guess I found another one of your strawmen. Oopsie.

We sponsor a child in South America. She happens to have the same name and birthday except for year as my daughter.

Beause it’s the only safe place for them to do so.
They are so fearful of having conversations of this nature face to face, that the only way they can feel better about their lousy, dull existence is to vent their rage at us via the internet.

What most people don’t realize, and that includes many (most?) that live here, is that the USA is not one homogenous country. The variation between regions is astounding, with different culture, manner of speaking, etc. TV/Film makes it seem like every place is pretty much the same, but it isn’t true. Coming from the northwest, when I visit the deep south or New England I feel almost as much in a foreign country as I do when I’m in Australia.

Stereotypes usually have an anecdotal grain of truth behind them, but that doesn’t make them universally applicable.

“s (c. 1787- ) are those who mean well when it comes to people of colour but might still be unknowingly racist in some way. Most whites in America seem to present themselves this way – and they mostly seem to believe it too.”

and then says,

“But most whites who seem well-meaning are not, not deep down (my emphasis). It is an act to maintain their self-image as being Basically Good.”

Now, I guess in your radically autonomous world this doesn’t mean that “well-meaning whites” are really “racist,” deep down inside?

@ Dave Lister – You need to swish some Listerine before you speak, because there aint’ nothing but hot, stink air coming outta your mouth.

As part of the Whites Members Only Club, you cannot come here and insult everyone with your ass-wipe attitude. They have their thoughts and opnions about what is wrong with this world, and this is their place to express them. If you are infuriated by what you read, then that’s simply too bad. I happen to agree with most of the posts on here, and all your huffing and puffing about who’s wrong doesn’t mean much to someone of color, because you, as a cackah, will never understand what we live with on a daily basis in this world.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Example of you using a strawman: Instead of directly addressing the real issue of “well meaning Whites” you instead create a whole new argument (read: My GUESS is that about 70% of every race are really well-meaning.) in hopes to redirect the argument to something irrelevant. The discussion isn’t about ALL races. If you want to invalidate the entire argument then instead of creating a whole new argument, how about address the points of the original argument in progress.

In reference to the discussion above about interracial adoption, I think wealthy Blacks should adopt African children…or maybe they do, but its not promoted much in the media…*shrugs* But I think it would be a great thing to do if it hasn’t been done, think of it as investing in “our people.”

“My GUESS is that that in this time about 85% of well-meaning whites are not well-meaning deep down. It is pretty much an act.”

The 85% is based on my experience with middle-class White Americans in the north-east. However something like 80% of whites, according to Bonilla-Silva, believe in abstract liberalism, the racist frame upon which insincere well-meaningness rests.

Abstract liberalism is where you are all for equality between the races but always seem to find one reason or another to oppose any solid measures that could help bring it about, like affirmative action, school busing, reparations, etc.etc.

“Abstract liberalism is where you are all for equality between the races but always seem to find one reason or another to oppose any solid measures that could help bring it about, like”

“affirmative action” – what reasons are used? how would you apply it?

“school busing” – which has created equality by destroying local control of schools rather than improving educations. I would not allow my daughter to be bused any distance to school, she’s busy enough without a political bus ride. I have little doubt that schools could be improved everywhere given the political will to do so, including the will of those in neighborhoods where schools are substandard. The tension between local control and outside money usually prevents anything but bad compromises. California schools have been ruined and continue to get ruined due to reliance on state funding which doesn’t meet the needs of ANY school. School days get shorter at my daughter’s school every year as a result, and they don’t bus anyone in this roughly 50% Mexican district and school. I don’t know what the answer is for anyone but frankly think busing exacerbates a problem in the attempt to solve one. Is total central control of schools the answer you see?

“reparations” – who pays, who gets, how much, and how does this promote equality? Would payment be based on percentage of African blood from particular regional genetic markers? A tracing of family trees? Or would anyone with “one drop” get paid some fixed amount? Tell me how this would work.

Wow, that was just low! You can’t resist the urge to be slimy in your responses, this one takes the cake in the sort of audacity your displaying. You have the audacity to come to this blog, ignoring what it represents and what it intends, to start telling people how to think and what’s “correct” in regards to racism? There’s nothing “correct” about racism, and people like you are only really just proving the point of this blog entry. “Well-meaning”, yet can’t resist the urge to degrade or insult the very people your claiming to “help”.

Seriously. Now your speaking for African’s too? As if you’d ever willinglly spend time with one of them enough to gather their opinion of African Americans.

I don’t see how it’s so hard to get! People who are arguing against this post seem to dismiss it as just “black irrationality” so that they can have a reason to misrepresent and purposely distort it. However, many white and PoC agree with the sort of sentiment in this post; that there are plenty of “well-meaning” whites out there, but they are just as racist as everyone else. It doesn’t matter if your black, asian, etc., your going to likely deal with one of those people who decides that because they’re white, they’re the be all to end all. It’s like when well-meaning “rich-folk” try to “help” poor people (white poor included) but do so in the most insulting, condescending way. Why wouldn’t you question their motives?

The true well-meaning whites were willing to get their hands dirty with everyone else to help confront racism (or a racist institution like slavery). They didn’t sit on a pedestal and claim to be the “saving grace” of PoC while watching them do all of the work. They also didn’t write back handed compliments or insults about the people they’re supposedly trying to help. The majority of white people, however do all of those things, yet many of them see themselves as being “well meaning”. They didn’t do it for special awards, cookies, or accolades.

In Christianity, I was told that a true Christian acts good because he believes he should, not for any special recognition. The best praise is quiet praise. It’s the same situation here with the parties changed. A true white person who is interested in the well-being of PoC wouldn’t need to get special treatment or recognition for doing good, nor would they throw a tantrum and stop when they realize they’re not the center of it all. Better yet, none of them would think they should be.

I’m disturbed by the way many here throw around the word “racism”, or “Racist” Pink Africans have become so evil that they even call Black people racist when we share factual information with them about their Devilish behavior towards nonwhite people. I stick with the dictionary definition which is this:

“Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination ”

So the true meaning is this: If a Pink African, or anyone else believes that their skin color alone gives them the right to rule, control, and destroy people with a different skin color, that those people are true racists.

Black people who speak the truth about White history and current White behavior are not Racists! They may be ANGRY as Hell and they certainly have a right to be considering how unChristian MOST Whites treat us. Just remember, MOST of them are racist. MOST intelligent Black people are ANGRY. That’s not the same thing at all.

What is the ethnic group of this Agabond person? They are truly insightful. Are they Asian or something? What does Agabond mean to them?

Cry me a river. Seriously. You tell me “what this blog represents”. I read the statement. I’ve never told anyone what they had to think but have been told plenty of times what I am supposed to think. In fact about 75% of posts started by Abagond begin with what most whites think (in the minds of him and people like him), and what we should think (sound familiar – read the rest of your post). If rubbish is what you wanted, that’s what you got. In this case he professes (along with his pseudo-intellectual references) to know the minds of “well-meaning whites”, and it’s a pile of steaming feces. As is your ability to discern. BTW, why do you have “correct” in quotes?

“Seriously. Now your speaking for African’s too? As if you’d ever willingly spend time with one of them enough to gather their opinion of African Americans.”

Another strawperson arrives. Please do point out where I am “speaking for African’s”. While you are at it feel free to point out wherever have spoken for anyone but me and the people I know. As far as Africans are concerned, you’d be surprised – the ones I’ve met are quite a lot different than you would like them to be, especially in the case of those who have come over here to live. Right now I am tutoring a young African girl in astronomy, along with a number of Hispanics and a few whites. I don’t and didn’t claim to speak for them so save it.

And yet I see in you another brilliant scholar professing what the “majority of white people ..do”. More nonsense. Note I have yet to state anything about what blacks or “POC” (whatever that really means) do (outside of post nonsense here) but I doubt you’d take very kindly to people telling you what you and the majority of “POC” think.

I’m not a Christian, and you don’t know me or what I’ve done. As far as tantrums are concerned you laid a doozey.

The first definition fits with some people I have known, but not many. These people were primarily what are called “white trash” – Neo Nazis, skinheads and the like. Their ideology was primarily separatist (at least the ones I am aware of).

The second part of the definition you provided fits many of those in this blog, to a tee, including the host.

“So the true meaning is this: If a Pink African, or anyone else believes that their skin color alone gives them the right to rule, control, and destroy people with a different skin color, that those people are true racists.”

By your definition I don’t know any “true” racists, but I know they exist. I’ve seen them on TV documentaries. Your definition also doesn’t fit with the codeword around here – only Pink Africans can be racist.

“My question is: do Africans think they are your people? Doubtful from what I read but maybe so.”

This reveals more about your racist ideology than you think. A Black American, same as an American of any Race, that adopts a baby of African descent will raise the child in an American context. Thus they baby while being from Africa, will culturally be American. The child will not innately be born with an “African” perspective.

This all before, even analyzing your homogenizing of millions of different cultures/people into African and your attempt to divide and conquer people of the African diaspora.

My question is: do Africans think they are your people? Doubtful from what I read but maybe so.”

or here:

“But you ARE regarded as a human “scurge”, as are many blacks, by people of all races. Now what? Do you care? If you do, what are you doing about it? If you don’t, why should I?”

You know that’s not what you meant when you decided to say what you did, don’t back track now.

So you get point for tutoring an African child? How “white” of you to say. Is everyone supposed to bow at your feet? I could say that I helped a lot of Black children, does that mean I get to tell other people “how it is” about their race? You don’t get a medal for doing something good for a person of color, nor do you get any authority for doing so. What’s so hard to understand about that? that’s exactly what’s being said in the main post! White people who come on here just to tout what they’ve done for a few “people of color” in indignation because *gasp* someone doesn’t treat them like the bee’s knees!

You came on this blog to tout nonesense and make arguments without even trying to read what other people are saying, you don’t get to play “victim” now that your getting called out for what you said up there. You don’t want the validity of your arguments questioned, don’t do it to others. In the end, you are not in any position of authority when it comes to race in America because YOU will never experience it. That’s YOUR priviledge, to not have it affect your life the same way it would any PoC here. So sorry if I don’t feel sorry for your or want to hold your hand and pat your back. So if you don’t like it, don’t prop yourself up here as some expert and then get mad when people call you out for it.

It reveals nothing about what I think about how the child may or may not be raised, but your response makes assumptions galore about those who will provide the child you are intending to help – including your homogenizing of millions of different people into African and their supposed membership in your African diaspora club (many whose forefathers created the club in the first place). My question was just that – a question: would Africans, of whatever nation involved, accept what was proposed given the spirit it was proposed? I said nothing about what the child thinks at all.

Despite all the different kinds of people who have come to America, the level of dehumanization of blacks goes way beyond that of anyone else except Native Americans. This is not about plain old “us and them” or ordinary tribalism that you see in most human societies. It goes way beyond that stuff. Blacks are dehumanized to a degree that ordinarily is done only to military enemies and not even always then.

Certainly black folks in America have had a rough go of it, but that just appears to be a pointed example of the general form of other-bigotry.

What about Catholics and Protestants in N. Ireland blowing up each other’s children, or Hutus butchering three quarters of a million Tutsis in about 3 months, mostly by hand? There’s plenty of examples of this general type which have nothing to do with race.

As you may have noticed, I prefer to reference broader patterns. I think this approach better yields underlying truths.

Imagine that you are observing an orange tabby cat. He likes to catch mice. Perhaps you conclude that orange tabby cats like to kill mice.

But have you really exposed the underlying reality of the situation? Upon deeper examination, one might conclude that the great majority of cats like to chase mice. Further, it’s not just mice, but squirrels, lizards, etc.

Eventually, one would conclude that your original observation of orange tabby cats chasing mice is just a specific example of the general tendency of predatory animals to be predisposed towards attempting to consume smaller prey animals.

Why should such a distinction matter?

Setting aside the natural, laudable desire to expose the underlying nature of reality, if one were an advocate for, or otherwise sympathetic towards mice, concluding that the threat to them exists solely or primarily in the form of orange tabby cats would be both misleading and ultimately unproductive.

Similarly, singling out racism (specifically anti-black racism) as a main form of social pathology ignores the broader paradigm that humans of all types commonly express tribalist tendencies.

So now in the lingo of people like you asking a question is speaking for someone – and I even accept that what I’ve read could be wrong. How very honest of you. I can see you’ll fit right in around here.

Your second “example” is even more inane. Please do show where I told the intended recipient what to think. I did ask what she thinks, and how what I think should relate to that.

“You know that’s not what you meant when you decided to say what you did, don’t back track now”

And yet you unashamedly post what I “meant” in your mind as if it were fact. Is that a disease?

“So you get point for tutoring an African child? How “white” of you to say. ”

More dishonesty on your part. I was responding to the inanity of your claim that “As if you’d ever willingly spend time with one of them enough to gather their opinion of African Americans.” I spend quite a bit of time with people from many countries. I never indicated that the subject of AAs ever came up, and never tried to speak for them. Do try and keep track of your own nonsense please, and stop trying to spin your rubbish onto me.

In any case, I’m not doing it for points. I don’t really care what you think or anyone else thinks about it, pro or con. I’d tutor anyone with interest in the subject because the subject is of interest to me. We aren’t getting together to discuss anything else.

The only thing I am a victim of is an inability to leave the hopelessly irrational alone. Don’t project your emotional state – although that too is a disease of the blog.

While the things you stated about Jews may be true, they are not the reasons why I would say to look to them as an example. To get (and keep) their game on track they are very good at building wealth and circulating it among themselves. Why can’t we do that? Building wealth won’t end racism but it can dramatically reduce the consequences of racism in modern day America.

If you ask many Back entrepreneurs, they would tell you that one of their biggest problems is getting support from their own people. Jews do not have this problem. If Blacks made it a priority to support Black businesses and Black people, wealth would begin to circulate among ourselves and we would become more self-reliant. If you look at many Jewish communities in this country, they are masters at this.

”
So now in the lingo of people like you asking a question is speaking for someone – and I even accept that what I’ve read could be wrong. How very honest of you. I can see you’ll fit right in around here.”

People like me? What would that be? You wrote that stuff and YOU get to be the judge over who and what is honest? Maybe you should look at yourself before you start with your strawmen and your unwillingness to address what’s actually been said.

“

Your second “example” is even more inane. Please do show where I told the intended recipient what to think. I did ask what she thinks, and how what I think should relate to that.”

That was in reference to your need to say these baiting comments, I apologize only for not seperating the post effectively in order to demonstrate that.

“And yet you unashamedly post what I “meant” in your mind as if it were fact. Is that a disease?”

A disease? What does that even mean?

“More dishonesty on your part. I was responding to the inanity of your claim that “As if you’d ever willingly spend time with one of them enough to gather their opinion of African Americans.” I spend quite a bit of time with people from many countries. I never indicated that the subject of AAs ever came up, and never tried to speak for them. Do try and keep track of your own nonsense please, and stop trying to spin your rubbish onto me.”

You brought up the Africans and their opinions of African American’s first, don’t back track now that someone’s called you out on that. Again, you don’t get a special pass for spending “time” with people from other countries. You made sure to prop yourself up as an expert, and tried to throw all manner of ad hominem attacks on people who’ve replied you here, so how can you really expect anything different? Would my tone make a difference?

“In any case, I’m not doing it for points. I don’t really care what you think or anyone else thinks about it, pro or con. I’d tutor anyone with interest in the subject because the subject is of interest to me. We aren’t getting together to discuss anything else.”

You brought up tutoring them, not me.

”
The only thing I am a victim of is an inability to leave the hopelessly irrational alone. Don’t project your emotional state – although that too is a disease of the blog.”

Again, how “white” of you. Dismissing anyone who doesn’t agree with you as “hopelessly irrational”. As if your comments have been any more “rational” than anyone elses. Again, you came here, and made all manner of comments, you don’t get to judge what is rational in a discussion of racism, which is, by it’s very nature, an irrational belief in the superiority of your race over other people’s.

Tell us Dave bLister, since you are so enlightened(Because after all since you are white, you must be naturally enlighten, right?) What are your solutions? What is your point? What are you trying to teach us ‘lowly’ coloreds? What do you want from us? What exactly are you trying to make us see? because all I see is senseless babbling coming from you.

“The only thing I am a victim of is an inability to leave the hopelessly irrational alone. Don’t project your emotional state – although that too is a disease of the blog.”

Hopelessly irrational. :D. Lets see here;
Abagond writes about white American racism and the negative experiences people of color face daily. Others come to add and discuss more about their ACTUAL observations and/or experiences. Then you pop out of no where and get your feelings caught and start acting like you are some type of expert and try to make it seem like we are the ones that are imagining things.

Maybe you SHOULD work on the ability to leave the hopelessly irrational alone. Your hopelessly irrational brain of course. 😀

Sometimes I feel like I am in twilight zone with some of these people.

Inherently dishonest people like you, yes. I addressed exactly what has been said – and unlike you I did it without sticking words in the mouths of anyone else. A disease – something wrong that isn’t your own fault. If dishonesty, reading minds, and building strawmen out of them is a disease symptom then I’ll am sympathetic to you and your handicap. If you are doing it intentionally it’s another matter.

“You brought up tutoring them, not me. “

I brought up tutoring ONE, in the context of your inane claim. It merely happens to be current events and on my mind – we met today. YOU turned it into something more. I mentioned the other kids only so you wouldn’t see it as special, it isn’t.

“You brought up the Africans and their opinions of African American’s first,”

Someone else first brought up Africans being adopted by African-Americans suggesting that they’d be helping their own. I questioned whether those at the other end would see it that way. It may be that they would be entirely in agreement.

Funny how nobody has answered the question…..

“you don’t get to judge what is rational in a discussion of racism, which is, by it’s very nature, an irrational belief in the superiority of your race over other people’s.”

Of course I do, every person does, especially when the proposed remedy includes irrational demands on that person. You don’t get a special pass just because you are a “PoC” (whatever that really means), nor do you get to choose who gets to judge. I’m not in any way telling you not to maintain your irrational beliefs, I’m telling you that your beliefs when judged to be irrational have no impact on me or my freedom of thought and action, and I will tell you that they have been judged to be irrational.

Talk about irrational and bizarre – so the rules (which someone else made) apply to some and not others? I’ll keep that in mind for future reference on these topics. You also seem to be confused at the difference between me telling Abagond what he must do, which I never did, and me telling Abagond what I will or won’t do in response to what he chooses to do.

@Abagond

I can’t tell now what you are complaining about now – that I didn’t mention it sooner (why would I out of context?) or that I mentioned it even when in context of the discussion? Or maybe you are just feeling guilty because you don’t do anything except complain?

As far as your second demand, I do try, but there are many who make it very difficult – see LookingForAnswers above.

@leigh204

XXOO

@Ace

Yes, I know, derailing is when someone disagrees with your dishonesty and irrationality.

“Inherently dishonest people like you, yes. I addressed exactly what has been said – and unlike you I did it without sticking words in the mouths of anyone else. A disease – something wrong that isn’t your own fault. If dishonesty, reading minds, and building strawmen out of them is a disease symptom then I’ll am sympathetic to you and your handicap. If you are doing it intentionally it’s another matter.”

Again, how am I “inherently” dishonest? Is it because I have the wrong skin color to be qualified to disagree with you? Since your assuming anyways. You did just that more than once, you did that in your first reply to me as well. Again, don’t be a pot calling the kettle black. You really are a piece of work, now your resorting to personal attacks? Handicap…really?

“I brought up tutoring ONE, in the context of your inane claim. It merely happens to be current events and on my mind – we met today. YOU turned it into something more. I mentioned the other kids only so you wouldn’t see it as special, it isn’t.”

You also brought up South American children too. I see nothing inane about calling to question why you think your qualified to speculate on what an African thinks of an African American beyond using your limited experience with them and your skin color as your resume. You opened the door to that first.

“You brought up the Africans and their opinions of African American’s first,”
“

Someone else first brought up Africans being adopted by African-Americans suggesting that they’d be helping their own. I questioned whether those at the other end would see it that way. It may be that they would be entirely in agreement.”

Again, why are you qualified to question that? Because you genuinely want to know or because you were trying to derail and throw in a hidden quip at the person your responding to?

“Funny how nobody has answered the question…..”

\
Funny how you didn’t own up to that “scurge” comment you made.

“Of course I do, every person does, especially when the proposed remedy includes irrational demands on that person. You don’t get a special pass just because you are a “PoC” (whatever that really means), nor do you get to choose who gets to judge. I’m not in any way telling you not to maintain your irrational beliefs, I’m telling you that your beliefs when judged to be irrational have no impact on me or my freedom of thought and action, and I will tell you that they have been judged to be irrational.”

Irrational demands? Because treating people as human beings worthy of respect is SO irational right? How do you know that I’m a “PoC” in the first place? Also, yeah, you do get a bit more creedence for being a PoC, since PoC are usually the ones who are personally affected by racism. I’m sorry that your not in a space where your being white is seen as a qualification that deems you the only “rational” one by default.

Also, google is your friend. If you don’t know what “PoC” stands for, you probably should have googled it instead of using it in an argument. (Btw, it stands for “Person of Color” or “People of Color”.)

Are you a lowly (redacted), Nana? Or are you one of these people that has no better argument than to stick something in someone elses mouth (not to mention name call)?

I’m not trying to make you see anything. I’m pointing out that what you are trying to make us evil whites (and by extension me) see, the claims of what we/I think, and the demands about what we/I should think will get you exactly what I’ve given you, in spite of the few AA wannabees that meet with modest approval. I can’t help it if you plod on down that path regardless.

“Abagond writes about white American racism and the negative experiences people of color face daily.”

Nope. See right there you are incorrect. I would not and have never have claimed that something that happened to someone else personally did not occur (unless they claim to have been turned into a newt and got better). What Abagond primarily posts on, or at least the only thing I respond to, are what he claims white people think, what our/my motives are, and what we/I should think/do – and what I see is primarily rubbish even when sort of qualified with “most”.

I have no doubt at all that major racism problems still exist in America, and in the rest of the world. None.

“Then you pop out of no where and get your feelings caught and start acting like you are some type of expert and try to make it seem like we are the ones that are imagining things.”

Nope. The only thing I’m an expert on is what I think and do, but unless you are willing to concede that many whites might know more than you or Abagond about what blacks think, here I can safely say I know more about what whites think than either you or he does.

The sad thing is, in America many blacks understand whites better than most whites understand themselves. That is because most whites are morally blind. That means they do not see what assholes they are but everyone else (who is not too brainwashed by whites) does. Meanwhile most white people’s understanding of blacks seems to be based largely on Hollywood stereotypes and Republican propaganda. As if blacks live in some far-off country.

“Again, how am I “inherently” dishonest? Is it because I have the wrong skin color to be qualified to disagree with you? Since your assuming anyways. You did just that more than once, you did that in your first reply to me as well. Again, don’t be a pot calling the kettle black. You really are a piece of work, now your resorting to personal attacks? Handicap…really?”

Your inherent dishonesty has already been accurately pointed out with examples. Do you want a crayon drawing?

Now you are trying the dishonest tactic of dragging your skin color into it, trying to make the allusion that I think you are dishonest because you are black (or whatever). Yet another example of dishonesty.

Asking if your dishonesty is the result of a disease is a personal attack? You are so thin-skinned, especially since I would cut you a break in the unlikely event it turned out to be the case. You are a piece of work – you are trying so hard in your dishonesty to make yourself out to be the victim by allusion and strawman.

“You also brought up South American children too.”

Yes, in the CONTEXT of a claim someone else made about white celebrities adopting/sponsoring black children. My point, lost on you, was that the sponsee we have is not black, and was selected from a list from a charity based only on first name and birth date. no race, no picture, we didn’t know anything else except the charity was rated highly for the low percentage of money used on overhead until we got the first postcard.

“scurge”

What about it? She sees whites as a scurge. Others see blacks as a scurge. I’ve been told by some blacks that they have the worst trouble with Asians. I don’t know that for a fact. Are you claiming that nobody but whites are seen as a “scurge”? Exactly what is your point?

” I see nothing inane about calling to question why you think your qualified to speculate on what an African thinks of an African American beyond using your limited experience with them and your skin color as your resume. You opened the door to that first. “

So now you are telling me what I can question and speculate on? Wow, you really are a piece of work, and yet you have no problem with someone doing more than speculating on the minds of people they don’t even know. Because of your skin color you are more qualified to speculate? You simply are playing the race card here, without much success I’m afraid. If such limitations are for you I’d suggest several police states run by people of every race where you’d be at home.

“Irrational demands? Because treating people as human beings worthy of respect is SO irational right?”

That is a rational demand. Unless you really don’t know, that isn’t what has been demanded specifically and you know are simply being dishonest again.

“Also, google is your friend. If you don’t know what “PoC” stands for”

Sigh. I know what the abbreviation stands for, it’s the implication that there is a monolithic voting/interest/power group that defines itself this way. I’m pretty sure that the use of that term is nothing but an attempt to try and speak for others when they haven’t given you leave to do so and probably wouldn’t in the first place. It’s DISHONEST.

“Nope. See right there you are incorrect. I would not and have never have claimed that something that happened to someone else personally did not occur (unless they claim to have been turned into a newt and got better). What Abagond primarily posts on, or at least the only thing I respond to, are what he claims white people think, what our/my motives are, and what we/I should think/do – and what I see is primarily rubbish even when sort of qualified with “most”.”

@ DL

Why would you think that you are privy to displays of racist behavior? That you would even attend to it let alone be susceptible of it? This is why I think you are absolutely clueless: you have the nerve to talk about something you have never experienced nor will you ever. Because you are White and you cannot know what systemic discrimination has done to devastate Black populations worldwide.

In what year did Britain and France decolonize?
In what year did residential schools close?
When was Brown v. school board fought?
When did S. African apartheid end?

These are the more nefarious, blatant examples.

If you talk to people of color, and you listen, the same themes come up. Are they all in cahoots, colluding against poor well-meaning whites like you DL?

OR is it possible that they are all reporting the same thing because IT IS THERE right in front of them. They (Black people) see it when they turn on the television, listen to the radio, go on the internet, go to university, open a book, learn about history, listen to their family stories etc.

This is their reality and by virtue of the fact that you mock and condescend to this blog and everything it is about, you are openly declaring that their experience is somehow non-existent.

You are wrong. You will continue to be wrong. Stop talking. Start listening.

Again, because you seem slow, I have not denied (nor even seen much here to comment on in the way of actual experience) anyone who has been a victim of racist behavior, nor have I denied or commented on devastated black populations worldwide.

You can put away your strawman now. It really won’t help you in your struggle towards being seen as rational.

“That claim is phenomenally arrogant, and in fact sounds like something a white racist might post.”

I don’t know who you think you are but Abagond has been diplomatic to the extreme by letting you stay here as long as he has.

Who are you to speak of arrogance when this forum has suddenly become about YOU, (something you hardly discourage by responding to every single comment directed at you with a dismissal or your classic “straw man” comment).

Your comments resonate with a couple trolls and that’s about it. You would think you would have picked up on that already.

“Your inherent dishonesty has already been accurately pointed out with examples. Do you want a crayon drawing?”

Yeah I have yet to see that. I don’t recall posting in the thread about anything dishonest or underhanded. However, I do see YOU posting plenty of probematic things.

”
Now you are trying the dishonest tactic of dragging your skin color into it, trying to make the allusion that I think you are dishonest because you are black (or whatever). Yet another example of dishonesty.”

You drug the race of the people you “helped” into it first, yet I”m dishonest? Okay. I never drug my race into anything. I never said my race, nor what skin color I have. I do find a common thread between dismissing opposition as inherently dishonest and irrational and associating those traits with the assumed skin color of the person who disagrees with you. If you don’t want that distinction, maybe you shouldn’t act like you do.

”
Asking if your dishonesty is the result of a disease is a personal attack? You are so thin-skinned, especially since I would cut you a break in the unlikely event it turned out to be the case. You are a piece of work – you are trying so hard in your dishonesty to make yourself out to be the victim by allusion and strawman.
“

Yeah actually it is. Asking me if my “dishonesty” (That I conveniently have because I disagree with you) is a part of any “disease” is not only a personal attack to me, it’s pretty damn low and rather insulting, especially to people who might have mental handicaps, disabilities (or diseases as you choose to call it) and don’t want their mental state touted by people trying to throw ad hominem attacks at people who disagree with them. You made yourself out to be the victim the minute someone questioned your responses, or are only only capable of selective memory?

“Yes, in the CONTEXT of a claim someone else made about white celebrities adopting/sponsoring black children. My point, lost on you, was that the sponsee we have is not black, and was selected from a list from a charity based only on first name and birth date. no race, no picture, we didn’t know anything else except the charity was rated highly for the low percentage of money used on overhead until we got the first postcard.”

Except for the fact that you would not have felt the need to bring them into it if you didn’t have a reason to. Your really good at backtracking to make what you say sound better than it did when you wrote it. So props to that.

“scurge”
“

What about it? She sees whites as a scurge. Others see blacks as a scurge. I’ve been told by some blacks that they have the worst trouble with Asians. I don’t know that for a fact. Are you claiming that nobody but whites are seen as a “scurge”? Exactly what is your point?”

So you just HAD to throw out that many people of other races see her and other black people as a “scurge” in a conversation about AMERICAN RACISM? What was YOUR point?

” I see nothing inane about calling to question why you think your qualified to speculate on what an African thinks of an African American beyond using your limited experience with them and your skin color as your resume. You opened the door to that first. “

”
So now you are telling me what I can question and speculate on? Wow, you really are a piece of work, and yet you have no problem with someone doing more than speculating on the minds of people they don’t even know. Because of your skin color you are more qualified to speculate? You simply are playing the race card here, without much success I’m afraid. If such limitations are for you I’d suggest several police states run by people of every race where you’d be at home.”

No one told you what you can and cant’ speculate. Another LOVELY strawman! However, I DID say that you deciding to throw that statement out and “speculate” wasn’t done to provide anything to the conversation beyond a derailing tactic. Especially since it is something you won’t really be able to accurately speculate and know about. And going by your responses here, I find it hard to believe you wound be willing to associate with them on an equal position and see their opinion as worthwhile if it doesn’t agree with yours. For all I know, you’ll see them as “dishonest”. And again, you don’t know my skin color, and “pulling the race card” doesn’t really apply to someone who disagrees with you just because they disagree with you.

“That is a rational demand. Unless you really don’t know, that isn’t what has been demanded specifically and you know are simply being dishonest again.”

So again, disagreeing with you is dishonest? You said I was irrational, you said that there were irrational demands being given, so what were they if those weren’t it?

“Sigh. I know what the abbreviation stands for, it’s the implication that there is a monolithic voting/interest/power group that defines itself this way. I’m pretty sure that the use of that term is nothing but an attempt to try and speak for others when they haven’t given you leave to do so and probably wouldn’t in the first place. It’s DISHONEST.”

Then why did you say repeatedly “whatever that means”? Yeah, okay, you would know more than any PoC what PoC stands for, right? Just like your inherently more honest or more rational too, right? Who gave YOU leave to do so? Since your so keen in doing just that? How do you know they’d give you any more leave than they’d give me? I’m not the one dismissing them am I? However, you seem awful keen on using those People of Color to your own ends to make your own points in arguing with other people on this blog.

So now you are demanding that I not respond to comments directed at me? Or that I not point out when people, you included, try and create nonsense positions for me? (Like you just did?)

Do you or Agabond think that the reaction of the general public to such a claim will be any gentler?

I’m hardly holding a gun to anyone’s head, you included JT. Deal with your own issues – you have plenty on your plate. Basic honesty is severely lacking – but then it seems you’d much rather have the harmony of stifled dissent than honesty. If that’s what Agabond wants he need only follow your “advice”.

Are you a lowly (redacted), Nana? Or are you one of these people that has no better argument than to stick something in someone elses mouth (not to mention name call)?

First of all, I am going by most of your comments you have made on this blog in general.

I’m not trying to make you see anything. I’m pointing out that what you are trying to make us evil whites (and by extension me) see, the claims of what we/I think, and the demands about what we/I should think will get you exactly what I’ve given you, in spite of the few AA wannabees that meet with modest approval. I can’t help it if you plod on down that path regardless.

I am not trying to make ‘evil’ whites do anything. And last time I checked, Abagond informed all of us that he did not write this blog for whites nor does he cater to the feelings of whites. Neither do I. What are you talking about?

“Abagond writes about white American racism and the negative experiences people of color face daily.”
Nope. See right there you are incorrect. I would not and have never have claimed that something that happened to someone else personally did not occur (unless they claim to have been turned into a newt and got better). What Abagond primarily posts on, or at least the only thing I respond to, are what he claims white people think, what our/my motives are, and what we/I should think/do – and what I see is primarily rubbish even when sort of qualified with “most”.

Well, most does not equal all. My baby sister understands the difference between most and all. It is not hard. I’ll give you an example. We have 5 turtles. 4 of them are big, 1 of them is small. That means most of them are big. That doesn’t mean they are ALL big, just a significant amount.Now, was that hard to comprehend?

I find it weird how you included yourself in these statements:
“What Abagond primarily posts on, or at least the only thing I respond to, are what he claims white people think, what our/my motives are, and what we/I should think/do.”

Or

“I’m pointing out that what you are trying to make us evil whites (and by extension me) see, the claims of what we/I think, and the demands about what we/I should think will get you exactly what I’ve given you”

If you see something that doesn’t apply to you, why do you get worked up about it?and Why did you include yourself?

I have no doubt at all that major racism problems still exist in America, and in the rest of the world. None.

Right…

“Then you pop out of no where and get your feelings caught and start acting like you are some type of expert and try to make it seem like we are the ones that are imagining things.”
Nope. The only thing I’m an expert on is what I think and do, but unless you are willing to concede that many whites might know more than you or Abagond about what blacks think, here I can safely say I know more about what whites think than either you or he does.

I usually STOP them in their tracks. I do not need anything from white people; except for them to Keep My Check Ontime.

They Kill me with their ulterior motives. They ALWAYS want something. Case in point all the NGO’s around the world. Usually manned by ugly and pedophile whites and clergy et al. in an empoverished country taking advantage of the poor.

Yeah I have yet to see that. I don’t recall posting in the thread about anything dishonest or underhanded. However, I do see YOU posting plenty of probematic things.”

Of course you don’t. You are dishonest even with yourself.

“You drug the race of the people you “helped” into it first, yet I’m dishonest?”

I didn’t drag their race into anything. I was refuting your inane claim that no time would be spent with Africans. Do try and make your lies at least slightly clever.

“Okay. I never drug my race into anything. I never said my race, nor what skin color I have. I do find a common thread between dismissing opposition as inherently dishonest and irrational and associating those traits with the assumed skin color of the person who disagrees with you. If you don’t want that distinction, maybe you shouldn’t act like you do.”

No, Ace, you aren’t getting out of your dishonesty by pointing the finger. You in fact did drag race into by the implication you made on my motives. It doesn’t matter what race you turn out to be, you implied that I was pointing out your dishonesty because of your race. Also, because there is the slightest chance you really don’t know, I haven’t differentiated anyone’s rationality/honesty based on race, and in fact there are several self-identified irrational/dishonest whites right here on this thread. You should feel right at home.

“Yeah actually it is. Asking me if my “dishonesty” (That I conveniently have because I disagree with you) is a part of any “disease” is not only a personal attack to me, it’s pretty damn low and rather insulting, especially to people who might have mental handicaps, disabilities (or diseases as you choose to call it) and don’t want their mental state touted by people trying to throw ad hominem attacks at people who disagree with them. You made yourself out to be the victim the minute someone questioned your responses, or are only only capable of selective memory?”

Poor baby. What a world you must live in where acknowledging a disease as a valid reason for misbehavior is a personal attack. If you are organically dishonest, you have a good excuse. I doubt that’s the case though.

“Except for the fact that you would not have felt the need to bring them into it if you didn’t have a reason to. Your really good at backtracking to make what you say sound better than it did when you wrote it. So props to that.”

More dishonesty, Ace? I didn’t backtrack anything. At the time it was in context. You do know what that word means, right?

“So you just HAD to throw out that many people of other races see her and other black people as a “scurge” in a conversation about AMERICAN RACISM? What was YOUR point?”

Sigh. She posted that she said she’s glad she isn’t white because she and some others see whites as scurges, and whites should do something about that. Someone is always seen as a scurge by someone else – even Jesus – right here in America. Therefore she/blacks are seen as a “scurge” by someone. Did she care if someone thought of her that way? If she doesn’t, why should I? If she does, what did she intend to do about it?

My point is why should she care what someone else secretly thinks about her. Do I need to break that down into even finer points? You seem hung up on a topic someone else brought up.

“I see nothing inane about calling to question why you think your qualified to speculate on what an African thinks of an African American beyond using your limited experience with them and your skin color as your resume. You opened the door to that first.”

I’m as qualified as anyone here to speculate. That isn’t what you did though, and your dishonesty is showing yet again. You claimed that I was speaking for Africans. Period. Case closed.

“No one told you what you can and cant’ speculate.”

Of course you did. Calling into question someone’s qualifications to merely speculate is in fact trying to limit speculation, especially after they’ve already stated that the information they have could be wrong. There is no other interpretation. None.

“Another LOVELY strawman! However, I DID say that you deciding to throw that statement out and “speculate” wasn’t done to provide anything to the conversation beyond a derailing tactic. Especially since it is something you won’t really be able to accurately speculate and know about.”

How did it derail anything, Ace? Why are you so dishonest? Someone made a statement. I asked if the intended beneficiaries would see it the same way. There is nothing derailing except your ability to stay truthful. If the thread was derailed, it wasn’t by me.

“And going by your responses here, I find it hard to believe you wound be willing to associate with them on an equal position and see their opinion as worthwhile if it doesn’t agree with yours. For all I know, you’ll see them as “dishonest”.”

But then it’s clear you don’t know very much, Ace. I only see people acting dishonestly as dishonest people.

“And again, you don’t know my skin color, and “pulling the race card” doesn’t really apply to someone who disagrees with you just because they disagree with you.”

You said “Again, how am I “inherently” dishonest? Is it because I have the wrong skin color to be qualified to disagree with you?”

That’s playing the race card. Period. Nobody else brought up skin color here – you did. It doesn’t matter what race you are, you played the card in a dishonest attempt to refocus on something other than the subject at hand.

“So again, disagreeing with you is dishonest? You said I was irrational, you said that there were irrational demands being given, so what were they if those weren’t it?”

I’m not about rehash the demands of five different threads for you. I gave you a pass if you really didn’t know – use it or not, I don’t care.

And yet another attempt to play the race card….

“Then why did you say repeatedly “whatever that means”? Yeah, okay, you would know more than any PoC what PoC stands for, right? Just like your inherently more honest or more rational too, right?”

Why did I say that? I just told you – it is used with an implication I’ve seen no support for whatsoever – that there is an alliance in some sense of non-whites. I can’t decipher what you mean by “you would know more than any PoC what PoC stands for, right?” but it appears at best to be yet another strawman as I’ve never claimed anything of the sort.

“Who gave YOU leave to do so? Since your so keen in doing just that? How do you know they’d give you any more leave than they’d give me? I’m not the one dismissing them am I? However, you seem awful keen on using those People of Color to your own ends to make your own points in arguing with other people on this blog.”

Who gave me leave to do what? I’m not the one making the implication, so what leave do I need? Do I need leave to not drive a car? I don’t need any “leave” to point out that I haven’t seen any evidence in support of that implication, from you or anyone else on the planet. When someone makes pronouncements about PoC, I qualify everything afterwards as possible nonsense.

“Then what is your point? That motivations can’t be isolated? That attitudes are indiscernible? That racist behaviors discrete and outright are phenomenon of the white trash minority?”

Motivations for individuals can be isolated. Generalizing that past a certain small group size can’t be done, no, for most everything past food, clothing, shelter, and reproduction (and maybe not even those). Attitudes of individuals are discernible, attitudes of groups are not and are always in flux.

“Says who?

You?

How are you in a place to make such an arrogant statement.”

Years of study and education, pal. Try it sometime.

“You are a sample of what? One?”

One and only one. I speak for myself. I suggest you and others do the same.

“A WHITE, with probably a predominantly White social ecology.”

Oh, my. The assumption do fly.

“Why is it that the ChescaLeigh video resonated with so many Blacks. The sample of hundreds/thousands/millions and their friends, say the same damn thing about WHITES. The behavior, the statements, the innuendo etc. are the same no matter where you go.”

Please do validate the claim you just made. I’d like to see the data. The video was funny, past that let’s see what you got.

“And i trust a sample that large, and robust over a sample of one White crackpot with very little internal validity to everything he says.”

Of course you do. I’m giving less than even odds that I’ll see anything even approaching justification for your claim here – which is in essence trying to speak for millions.

“Well, most does not equal all. My baby sister understands the difference between most and all. It is not hard. I’ll give you an example. We have 5 turtles. 4 of them are big, 1 of them is small. That means most of them are big. That doesn’t mean they are ALL big, just a significant amount.Now, was that hard to comprehend?”

Now Nana, if you carry that over to a larger sample set you’d be left with nothing but the implication that the one small turtle is abnormal, different, a runt. That’s exactly the same implication Abagond makes about whites – the ones he doesn’t include in his “most” are abnormal whites, especially since in this case he is invoking a moral discriminant, not something relative lacking in moral value such as size.

“I have no doubt at all that major racism problems still exist in America, and in the rest of the world. None. ”

Nana -> “Right…”

Was that sarcasm?

“If you see something that doesn’t apply to you, why do you get worked up about it?and Why did you include yourself? ”

Why, because the implication is clear. That and it doesn’t include anyone I know, of any race. Basically though as I said I’m a sucker for arguing with the irrational. I do know what they say about that….

What have YOU done that gives you the moral authority to pass judgement on who is “well-meaning”? Or for someone else to state with certainty on the subject of “white pathologies”?

What have you done? If you don’t like it you can kiss his buttocks! Go somewhere more to your liking why don’t you? Better yet, take Leigh’s advice!!!

Please respond again, so I can dismantle you some more, because this is fun.

That’s the spirit!!!! Carry on!

I do not have the power to fire, flunk, excommunicate, lynch, brainwash or burn at the stake anyone who comes here.

More’s the pity!

Try to stay on topic.

I am waiting for Randy to chime in!

Are basic ideas like Occam’s Razor, the burden of proof or logic too sophisticated for you?

Who gives a sheet? I don’t have to ‘argue’, ‘debate’ or anything with you and your ilk. You, don’t demand anything from anyone. You are another one who should take Leigh’s advice. The Tin Foil Hat club awaits!

This tit-for-tat saga is getting off topic. I am deleting any further comments in that vein. I think everyone here has enough data to come to their own conclusions about how intellectually dis/honest each of you are.

“Why, because the implication is clear. That and it doesn’t include anyone I know, of any race. Basically though as I said I’m a sucker for arguing with the irrational. I do know what they say about that….”

Right, but instead of merely disagreeing with me and pointing out why you think I am wrong, like Randy did or like what any rational person would do, you get your panties in a twist, misrepresent me to make me look like a racist idiot and then suddenly bring up your good works to children of colour. As if I struck a nerve or something. Instead of disproving me your antics strengthened my case beyond anything I expected. (Well, no. To be honest I did half expect a white commenter to go ballistic and prove me right. You are hardly the first.)

I apologize, I got tricked into letting everything be derailed and I didn’t even realize it.

In regards to the initial post, why is it that people are expected to ignore any sort of racism on the part of “well-meaning” whites as long as they get to tout the few things they do for individual members of that race? For example, it’s like,

You seem use the word “honesty” a lot. I wonder why you do not see your very own dishonesty at all. Is that on purpose, or is that the very “Whiteness” that abagond so often refers to? Is your unability to see your own idiocies and simple mindness part of the american whiteness?

Childish debate techniques, derailing, false denouncements, total blindess to ones own racism and ideology, these have been talked about in this blog before. They are all parts of the white american ethos to combat the opposite, to deny the existence of the racist system that exists in USA and specially in the minds of people like yourself.

This particular post was trying to point that out, this particular post tried to point out that even those who claim to be anti racists and declare themselves as “good people” are in fact prisoners of that very System. Just like you are.

For a foreigner like myself one of the most amazing things americans blurt out of their mouths and usually when they have done something wrong or terrible wrong is this: “But I’m a good person”. And for some reason this comes out of the mouths of white americans most often. Just like Hilary Clinton once said: “We know we are doing the right thing because we are americans and we are good people”. Like bombing some soveirng state and its civilians to smithereens, putting millions of people in jails, torturing prisoners of war, torturing prisoners at home etc. Just like that: We can not be wrong because we are americans.

That is part of the problem David and you are one of those “good people”. Totally blind, totally lost morally, pretending that by supporting some kid in South Africa (which is nice) makes you somehow “good” while you have millions of hungry americans just down the road, many of them not white AND even some whites too. Now, talk about honesty and morals there.

But I do not feel anger towards you, I know you are blind and lost like a child in dark. You have your own illusions and own dreams which you choose before the truth. You have every right to do so. BUT do not talk about honesty and reality when you still live in Lala Land.

Once you have see the beast and called its name, then you can talk honestly about honesty. And if you then, still, hold it as a truth, that most white americans are not supporting and living in a racist System (even without knowning it), then you have shown your real colors, no pun intended.

heres a test for you guys since you are so sure of the most whites hypothesis . Go up to a white person who you would least likely interact with, and try to give them a hug. If you do that enough times with an open heart maybe you will heal yourself, and if they have their own prejudice, maybe you will help them find peace as well.

Another thing………Have you ever had an argument with a family member where they were in the wrong more than you, but they start bringing up crud that you did? Well how about if you start bringing up all the shortcomings of their friends, then they did the same to you. Then you said ,”well all my friends had it rougher than your friends, your friends are a bunch of a holes” then they said your friends were always in trouble and doing the wrongs things” “Hey, don’t derail, you TROLL you’re opinion doesn’t count because you are light skin and you’ve had it easy” this could go on forever, I’ll leave it to you to finish the argument.

I think you are expecting that Black people should spend their day trying to acquaint themselves with the idiosyncracies of White psychology per every individual.

When there are featural qualities (i.e. whiteness) that allow Blacks to make often accurate assessments of whites, why would they need to spend the time or energy trying to find out who is the exception to the rule.

The fact of the matter is that they don’t need to find the exception to the rule. Black people can predict with a strong level of accuracy what types of behaviors and statements to expect from the prototypical white.

Not all whites are racist. However, not all birds fly: Does that mean we stop understanding that one common feature across many variations of birds is that they can fly?

Reliability vs. validity. It may be an invalid construct across the board but it proves reliable 95% of the time.

” Go up to a white person who you would least likely interact with, and try to give them a hug. If you do that enough times with an open heart maybe you will heal yourself, and if they have their own prejudice, maybe you will help them find peace as well.”

This thread has taken a very disappointing turn. As much as Dave Lister has played the poor, wrongly-accused white man throughout most of this saga, I see so many engaging him using the very same tactics with which he’s accused.
As such, it only diminishes your arguments against him (and those like him).
Why even engage him at all if not to attempt to impart some sort of wisdom or perspective? If he is a lost cause, then what good does it do you to argue with him? You are not sharpening your claws. You are ripping out your nails because to continue to debate him is to slowly sink lower into the very tactics you accuse him of exploiting. I am not surprised by Dave; I expect this sort of behavior from defensive white men. I expect better from those with an understanding of the subject, particularly when they have the nerve to profess an ability for intelligent discussion.

I got tricked into letting everything be derailed

Being such an advocate for personal responsibility, I just couldn’t let this one go by.
No, you didn’t get “tricked”. You willing engaged in a derailment knowing full well what you were doing. If you were not able to determine such– well, surely you understand the implications there.

@DaveLister
Exactly what is your point? You have bounced from subject to subject and talked in so many circles that I haven’t any idea why you are so upset over Abagond’s post. So I am asking you directly, and I’d appreciate it, should you choose to respond, that you do so without the attitudes, without the defensiveness, and without the references to the other posts.

@Abagond

…that if you pointed out their mistake the scales would fall from their eyes…But instead you get anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.
Not the behaviour of a clueless innocent.

Having worked with teenagers, I’m inclined to disagree. Innocent? No, but they honestly believe they are. Clueless? Often quite clueless as to how their actions affect others. Not just clueless, but completely self-absorbed.
Maybe it’s not fair for me to compare adults to teenagers, but I don’t see much evidence of that behavior being outgrown in the average person.

These ‘well-meaning’ whites who “want to uplift mankind”, may in part be led by their racist ignorance, but you would have us believe that “deep down they know just what the deal is and what their dirty, ugly part in it is.” That implies that it’s not ignorance nor cluelessness but intentional racism, perhaps in an attempt to further perpetuate it.
That is how I read it. Please correct me if I’m mistaken.

” Go up to a white person who you would least likely interact with, and try to give them a hug. If you do that enough times with an open heart maybe you will heal yourself, and if they have their own prejudice, maybe you will help them find peace as well.”

“heres a test for you guys since you are so sure of the most whites hypothesis . Go up to a white person who you would least likely interact with, and try to give them a hug. If you do that enough times with an open heart maybe you will heal yourself, and if they have their own prejudice, maybe you will help them find peace as well”

Wow this is a long blog. I am 16 years old and yes, Sam and Stephanie are right 100%. And yes, the ”well meaning Whites” SEEM non racism but a lot of them have racist natures of some sort. Even I noticed that! But since I am so young, I don’t get this article 100%.
And no, we aren’t living in a ”post racial America” because I still hear people say racist comments and those Republicans are just giving Pres. Obama a hard time because he is Black. They wouldn’t be doing this if Pres. Obama was a White president.
And especially at my Catholic school last year. A lot of the White kids would say some very racist comments about our president. They weren’t nice to me and treated me badly.
Black actors and actresses still don’t have equal representation in Hollyweird, that is what I call it. Poor beautiful Zoe Saladana couldn’t even get a cover of the magazine to feature her because she is ”more ethnic looking” and doesn’t have the Eurocentric features of JLO and Jessica Alba. She deserves a magazine cover because she did a good job in that movie, Columbiano.
I don’t see a lot of Black actresses an actors on TV but some but we need more.
George Lucas recently said that he had a hard time funding the movie, RedTails because Hollywood wouldn’t fund a ”Black movie”. How racist is that? Viola Davis, who I find beautiful and talented, said that she has a hard time in Hollywood because she doesn’t look like Halle Berry but she said EVEN Halle Berry has a hardtime. Wow, that should tell me the nature of Hollywood but I am NOT shocked!
Black boys and men are dating light skinned to non Black women in droves. What happened to Black love? I don’t know but the media and propandanga tells them that other women particularly White women are better and more beautiful, attractive etc than us Black women. What is this saying to Black boys and men?
The topic of race is still common among Black teenagers like me. And you think the topic of race would go away once we are in ”post racial America”. Hahah we all wish! But it doesn’t die down EVER. Or seems to.
Watching The Help got me so upset last year. I was upset at how Blacks were treated.
Yes, I am a racially conscious young girl and I do know that Whites get uncomfortable when hearing and talking about race. it is like they don’t want to owe up to their past. But then again it was in the past. but it is up to Whites, ”well meaning” or not to break down the barriers of racism and privilege that benefits them. I don’t know if that would EVER happen but I better live enough to see that happen! Justice and equality for all is what I believe in!

“That is part of the problem David and you are one of those “good people”. Totally blind, totally lost morally, pretending that by supporting some kid in South Africa (which is nice) makes you somehow “good” while you have millions of hungry americans just down the road, many of them not white AND even some whites too. Now, talk about honesty and morals there.”

On a distant blog post, I talked about the whole concept of inherent “goodness” that many white Americans seem to possess. They see themselves as inherently good people and blacks as, for whatever reason, inherently bad.

Whenever Abagond explains why this concept of inherent goodness is detrimental to the health of the white American psyche (as it allows them to sell themselves an outright lie), people like Dave Lister take that as a deeply personal attack on his own person, his own concept of inherent goodness. After all, he’s a good person! How dare Abagond tell him otherwise!

No white person wants to be told they’re “a bad person,” on an individual or collective level. Being left to deal with confronting the truth about their forefathers and the potential consequences they could face in the future scares them like nothing else. I believe the first step for a white person to deal with their own deep-set bias and conditioning is to finally admit that they are, in fact, NOT a good person.

Dave Lister’s spent an extraordinary amount of time and effort defending his own inherent goodness while at the same time dismissing the genuine concerns and views of black Americans as just things that black people are making a whole lot of fuss over, and of course, in his mind, whatever black people are making a fuss over is probably not terribly important.

On any other blog, Dave would have been long since dismissed or ignored as just another crank for whom this blog has hit a raw nerve.

Yes, I agree with you.
This is why I stopped communicating on this thread and to be honest, I’ve stopped having relations with most whites except my family.

I find that whenever we, as coloureds, of any race, bring this subject up, most whites cannot handle its magnitude.
Why is that?

Guilt?
Fear of retaliation?
Hidden glee at our suffering?

I’m worn out. I’ve given up completely. I just don’t know how to communicate with someone who WON’T listen.

I agree with the statement that we need to be more self reliant. We sometimes can be our own worst enemy.
That has been instilled in us from the days of slavery / opression, to be hateful and suspicious of our own kind.

I know you are a scientist and have a very factual way of looking at things.
I respect that.
But emotionally and viscerally, I believe that some people were put on this earth to destroy.

“No white person wants to be told they’re “a bad person,” on an individual or collective level. Being left to deal with confronting the truth about their forefathers and the potential consequences they could face in the future scares them like nothing else. I believe the first step for a white person to deal with their own deep-set bias and conditioning is to finally admit that they are, in fact, NOT a good person.”

****************************************************

I concur! And yet there are a FEW “whites” that can and do come to this realization re their racist conditioning and bias, and desire to rid themselves of it.. some do manage to get SOMEWHAT past the crippling/stifling effects of overwhelming guilt. These are the ones I’m interested in engaging and building bridges with.

One of their roles is to continually communicate to their “white” families, friends, associates and random strangers of the HARM racism does to the minds, psyches or SOULS of WHITE people.

– Are you silent “white” lurkers out there getting/understanding this??
– Well meaning without ACTION is meaningless.*

“I find that whenever we, as c*loureds, of any race, bring this subject up, most whites cannot handle its magnitude.
Why is that? Guilt? Fear of retaliation? Hidden glee at our suffering?”

Could it be your self-righteous holier-than-thou completely self-absorbed and self-interested way you talk about it? Telling someone what THEY must do as opposed to what WE are going to do together?

Don’t expect anyone to believe you have some higher principle you are invoking, it’s become clear that self-interest is what drives most of the bloggers here.

“I believe the first step for a white person to deal with their own deep-set bias and conditioning is to finally admit that they are, in fact, NOT a good person.”

Good for you, Mack. Lead by example with your admissions.

“I concur! And yet there are a FEW “whites” that can and do come to this realization re their racist conditioning and bias, and desire to rid themselves of it..”

I wonder why that is – could it be your self righteous irrationality? I’m not sure what your goal is, but your methods basically suck. You want someone to do something, and insulting them into it is your method.

“On any other blog, Dave would have been long since dismissed or ignored as just another crank for whom this blog has hit a raw nerve.”

No, on 99% of blogs the entire set of bloggers here would be dismissed as irrational cranks or worse.

“Are you silent “white” lurkers out there getting/understanding this?? Well meaning without ACTION is meaningless.*”

“That approach is too slow. Why not focus more on self-reliance to reduce the impact of racism in modern America?”

*******************************

Dear LookingForAnswers

IF I possessed a magic wand, racism and even the memory of it would cease to exist – in a moment! But we both know that’s not a realistic option, because after all, what’s my chances of finding that elusive magical wand?

In the meantime, while you’re contemplating this question, I’ve gotta do what I gotta do, and write what I gotta write regardless of how slow my approach might be.

There’s no law, or logic, which states that only one approach can be used at a time to combat racism. So, shouldn’t we use every and any (moral/just) means or tactic that’s within our reach and at our disposal?

It’s my opinion that this life devouring monster requires an attack on multiple fronts – until it’s dead.

@Adeen
Being so young, Obama is the first democratic president you’ve had the opportunity to observe. Republicans are not giving him a hard time only due to his race. They did the same to Clinton and to Carter (the democratic presidencies I had the opportunity to observe). From what I know of the history, much of the same was also done to Kennedy. Make no mistake, Obama’s blackness does allow for a new level of opposition using racist tactics to tear him down, but it is not the sole reason he gets a hard time. When we get a woman into the oval office, you will see the very same opposition only with the use of sexism thrown in for added affect.

@Truthbetold

I’m worn out. I’ve given up completely. I just don’t know how to communicate with someone who WON’T listen.

I understand this. It’s very wearing with a high head-to-desk ratio. Talking to whites about racism is like talking to teenagers about… well, anything. In both cases, they already know everything and unless you’re agreeing with them, you’re wrong and ignorant. One needs to have an astronomical amount of patience.
I have learned that in both cases, they learn better from their peers. This is why anti-racists like Tim Wise and Jane Elliot are so necessary. Why can’t whites learn from POC? I can only theorize, but I believe the answer is ‘perspective’. Whites do not share the same positionality as POC and so they do not see what we see, and we cannot (do not, is more accurate) teach them via their perspective. They have to see it and recognize it from their point of view. It makes no sense to them otherwise. One cannot make a rich man understand the struggles of the poor by telling him that he’s a bad person who contributes to their suffering. He will always assess the poor through his own angle of perspective.
Occasionally we have whites who are willing to look beyond their own frame of reference, but ethnocentricity is deeply ingrained into the human psyche. If ‘white understanding’ is a goal, then the method used by many of the posters in this blog will only lead to failure, and the reactions will always be like Dave Lister’s.

I think I understand what it is you want when you preach self-reliance, but when I hear it, I also hear the same old tired argument that’s preached by many whites. If we want to get anywhere, it’s up to us. We’re the ones holding ourselves back because we depend on others.
This is also an argument that causes division in the POC community with middle-man minorities like Asians. The Asians are self-reliant; they don’t depend on anyone else. Why can’t blacks be more like the Asians? These are arguments whites use. Please look closely and see the huge rift between the Asian and black communities. It is largely due to this argument.

You believe that self-reliance will lessen the impact of racism? Has it done so for the Asian community? As a middle-man minority, Asians get a healthy dose of racism from both sides. Despite following in the footsteps of the Jews and assimilating into white culture, they are still not white and will never be accepted fully. They cannot blend in as the Jews have done. Despite their self-reliance, the racism faced by the Asian community has not changed much at all.

Well then I marvel at your patience and willingness to still impart that “wisdom”, although I dislike being scolded and hate tone arguments, lol. (I also don’t see where you get the impressing I “knew” what I was doing…beyond losing my patience)

And yet he’s doing it yet again. Now all of a sudden people here are self righteous and “irrational”. It’s got nothing to do with him being unable to get something because he’s white, he CHOOSES not to get it. I apologized on my end, but he still insists on arguing and derailing. Personal responsibility goes both ways. If he wanted “help” or “wisdom” he would’ve gotten it the first 10 times someone told him. The fact that he’s still arguing right up there, and yet again choosing to ignore or dismiss things said shows he’s got no interest, so why show patience anymore?

@ LookingforAnswers and Matari

I am not sure if self-reliance would work on it’s own. We’ve had our “Black Wall streets” and while they were great for a time, they were often sabotaged or just razed to the ground by neighboring Whites (Rosewood, Tulsa, etc.) for often trivial reasons. We can’t just start those businesses and communities up again easily as long as our society takes such an affront to Black success.

Also, unlike the Jewish people and other ethnic groups that came to America, Black people didn’t have reparations and special considerations that would allow them to establish that “self-reliance” the Jews are known for. Pretty much what I’m saying is that the Jewish people were not really “self-reliant”, or no more than anyone else. They just were the governments (I hope this isn’t offensive) “sympathy pet” because they were horribly oppressed (by the “enemy” at the time) and appeared to be ethnically white.

I understand your theory about whites’ lack of perspective to understand racism.
If whites need other whites to ” teach ” them and most whites will not or cannot see beyond the error of their ways, how do they learn?

It’s like a dog chasing its tail.
The reason I think most whites refuse to listen to us about racism, etc is because most whites still think coloureds are less than human.

Why listen to someone you believe is inferior to you?
Why take their ideas and perceptions seriously?
Also, not being able to own up to your own evilness is largely part of the problem.

The knee jerk reaction of some many whites on this blog only confirms what we’ve been saying all along.

What methods would you recommend?
Oprah did a social experiment and they STILL didn’t get it.
Chescaleigh did a wonderful piece on youtube and they STILL didn’t get it.
Books, documentaries and countless discussions have been done and read and they STILL didn’t get it.
I’ve given up on them.
They are just not worth the effort.

@ matari

Slavery destroyed trust within our communities.
We were rewarded to squeal on each other for favors by our slavemasters.
We were told that there could only be ” one of us ” at a high level so we try to tear each other down.

As for relationships…what relationships?
We are beaten down at every turn.
We lash out at each other because we can’t lash out at our oppressors.

“I am not sure if self-reliance would work on it’s own. We’ve had our “Black Wall streets” and while they were great for a time, they were often sabotaged or just razed to the ground by neighboring Whites (Rosewood, Tulsa, etc.) for often trivial reasons.”

Very little in life is “sure” or certain. But if you had a choice to be self-employed or employed by some other entity, which would you choose? Who would you rather work for yourself, or them?

Personally, I’m not a fan of present day Israel. I don’t think that they are “positive” role models.
However, we as Africans should be as cunning, or wiser … knowing what we NOW know..

“We can’t just start those businesses and communities up again easily as long as our society takes such an affront to Black success.”

So what then… we should just lay down and not try anymore? Don’t think so! Let society be affronted/offended. We’ve got to free our collective minds from the lingering effects of slavery/colonization. It’s better to fail at trying to do something than being successful at sitting on our hands, waiting for ..

And since when has anything we achieved in America been “easily” attained?

How diabolical to construct such a masterful weapon!
Psychological warfare!!!

And, let me tell you, it worked like a charm.

This is why I question the evilness within the white race.
It’s as though they sit down, in front of a roaring fire, with a good port, listening to Bach, playing chess on the side, plotting world domination.

Slavery destroyed trust within our communities.
We were rewarded to squeal on each other for favors by our slavemasters.
We were told that there could only be ” one of us ” at a high level so we try to tear each other down.

As for relationships…what relationships?
We are beaten down at every turn.
We lash out at each other because we can’t lash out at our oppressors.

I understand your needs.
I feel it too.
But it seem we are stuck.

*********************************

It’s not about “my” needs. It’s about OUR collective needs…

Yes, we ARE stuck, but because we’re presently stuck doesn’t mean that we have to forever remain stuck.

“We can’t just start those businesses and communities up again easily as long as our society takes such an affront to Black success.”

They don’t want you to succeed too much as that would prove just how racist they are. An example; the black middle-class has risen steadily, yet when one watches television, most of what one sees is stabbings and shootings. You don’t hear/see much about these neighbourhoods. If you succeed in spite of racist barriers in your way, it proves this notion of well intentioned whites to be to the contrary. We can’t have that no can we? A case in point would be the Afric-centric school in Toronto. It is so successful, that they are planning a high school(it is only at the elementary level). Even so you still have you parade of naysayers. This school has shown just how systemically racist the education system is. It puts paid to the notion of their well intentions. But of course there are questions that they will never ask;’Why is this school successful?

You’re right; I did knowingly scold, and I apologize. That was me losing my patience. But to say you didn’t know what you were doing, is to imply that you are ignorant of your own actions. I do not believe you are. Now I’ve just put you between a rock and a hard place. Either you claim stupidity or responsibility.

No one likes tone arguments, but it does have ‘some’ validity. Protestants often think they can convert those of different faiths by telling them what horrid sinners they are and how they’re going to burn in hell. Does this ever work? Well, sometimes it does (and sometimes it works in race discussions and we end up with whites like stephanie). What usually happens, though? More often those attacked become defensive over the self-righteousness attitudes displayed and shut them out. That being said, ’emotional tone’ (which is the gist of most white ‘tone arguments’) has no validity at all. We have a right to be angry.
Dave Lister is never going to learn anything by being insulted, and told he’s a bad person. He’s not going to listen when he’s attacked. Who does?

But I also agree with you. He’s responsible for his own listening skills. He’s not made any effort to see any other point of view, and he is a case-example of many whites who “choose” not to get it. I don’t think DL is a troll in the likes of thordaddy or jasonburns, but I do believe he is someone who likes to argue and always be right. I asked him directly what his problem was with Abagond’s post, and instead of attempting to engage in civil discussion, he choose to ignore the question and continue arguing with circular logic. All this tells me is that continued engagement with him is moot and will only serve to wear us out more.

If whites need other whites to ” teach ” them and most whites will not or cannot see beyond the error of their ways, how do they learn?

I don’t think it’s just about whites teaching them. I think it’s about being taught via their perspective. I have personally had success in this with some of my white friends. It’s tedious and laborious, and they don’t suddenly get some epiphany like “Goodness!! POC have been right this whole time!!” But they do begin to form an understanding and try to become more open-minded. It’s allowed them to put down their rose-colored glasses.

The reason I think most whites refuse to listen to us about racism, etc is because most whites still think coloureds are less than human.

On this point I will disagree. Human rights have come a long way, and I believe, are better instilled in the hearts of humanity than they once were. Even more so in our newer generations. However, ethnocentricity is still very common. I don’t believe they think we’re less than human; I think they believe we’re just wrong.

Why listen to someone you believe is inferior to you?

Why listen to someone who you believe is wrong?

…not being able to own up to your own evilness is largely part of the problem.

Not being able to o uwnp to being the one who is ‘actually’ wrong is even bigger. To me, evil implies intention. I see less intention, and more willful ignorance. I have my doubts that if we were to attempt internment today that as many whites would simply sit by and let it happen. I think they’ve wised up to the more blatant violations. It’s the subtle ones that they do not understand.

The knee jerk reaction of some many whites on this blog only confirms what we’ve been saying all along.

What who has been saying? I’ve been saying that whites are ignorant to their own actions because they are so self-absorbed. Much like teenagers.

What methods would you recommend?
Oprah did a social experiment and they STILL didn’t get it.
Chescaleigh did a wonderful piece on youtube and they STILL didn’t get it.
Books, documentaries and countless discussions have been done and read and they STILL didn’t get it.

I wish I was wise enough to have all the answers.
Which social experiment by Oprah? The eye experiment? I think some did get it. I think some got it when they saw Chescaleigh’s piece, too. I think some get it through all the books, documentaries and discussions, too. I think more “get it” every day. In fact, I have to say I was quite proud of the amount of white people that “got it” during the UCLA ‘asians in the library’ scandal (http://youtu.be/FNuyDZevKrU). I was quite proud of the amount of white people that “got it” over the Oscar Grant shooting in Oakland. I’m quite happy with the white support over the Danny Chen suicide. Do I wish there were more? Absolutely. Will there be more? I believe so. Maybe it will stay slow, or maybe as more whites “get it” the level of understanding will pick up momentum. I don’t know, but I have to continue to be part of the solution in any way that works.

I love Dave Lister’s advice about walking up to a random White person and giving them a hug.

Lol, there are people who hug a white person every night and wake up to them in the morning but in the case of Henry Loius Gates, Jr. that didn’t stop the cops from picking him up in front of his own home, and that’s a Black man who is far from uneducated and low income or criminal.

Many, many years ago, Black women had their nipple in a White baby’s mouth, providing them breast milk. How’s that for a hug?

As for how Africans feel about African Americans, any negativity they feel would be from the media or any unfortunate encounter they experienced as an immigrant in this country. If I went to Harlem I’m not going to get greeeted with hugs from other AAs cause I’m Black. Just like I am certain if Dave Lister went to Bensonhurst, other White people are not going to flock to him and hug him cause of his skin.

One thing is for certain, if you want to ask the world what race is known for just popping up in a country foreign to them and just doing as they please wheter out right assault or subtle “well-meaning” tactics, a frequent answer will be “White”

So will Africans hate me? Was it Blacks who were sailing the boat that brought them to America? Was it Blacks who were known for having other Blacks serve as slaves and maids?

Yes, there are class systems in many conutries, but only in America is race used to dictate who is “superior.” It doesn’t matter how intelligent, wealthy and attractive a Black person is, it is never forgotten they are BLACK. After centuries of Whites and Blacks being in America since it was ripped away from the tribes that were here first, we have always been “African” American. European American is rarely used to describe White people. They are always American by default. Same with any country, where White are the majority.

To lash out on a blog titled “well-meaning whites” is hilarious, what ever your purpose of commenting only in turn made you sound like a braggart. Congrats on helping Blacks who are struggling, but to jump and shove your thoughts down someone’s throught about a blog for Black people is senseless. I don’t go on Stormfront a blog that is not only for White poeple (but in an extreme case, White supremists) and try to argue them into “hugging” Blacks to relieve racism.

Not all White people have a “hidden agenda,” for someone to get all worked up if the blog topic is NOT about them, it makes me wonder if in fact it IS.

“It’s a great opportunity to serve our students and that’s what this has always been about,” said the board’s education director, Chris Spence. “You know, how do we think outside the box and support our students the best way we can.”
An Africentric elementary school opened in Toronto in September 2009.An Africentric elementary school opened in Toronto in September 2009. (CBC)

Spence said data from Toronto’s Africentric elementary school, which opened in September 2009, suggests the board is taking the right approach.

Students in that school have produced above-average provincial test scores and there is a wait list to get in.

Trustee Shaun Chen said an Africentric high school is the next step in addressing the 40 per cent dropout rate among black students.

“The disengagement that the students in the black community are facing in our regular schools does not stop in Grade 8,” he said.

No apologies needed, I understand completely! I’m pretty new to commenting on the web, especially in regards to serious discussions like race. I didn’t think that I’d contributed to the derailment until it was pointed out to me, I was just seeing red. I didn’t want to seem confrontational in my response to you, though it might’ve seen heated. I do agree with you in what you say, pretty much like all of it actually. You and other commentors here (along with Abagond) have been nothing but civil and patient but I don’t see him giving you the same courtesy. He’s quick to resort to personal attacks when people disagree with him, regardless of what tone they use in doing so. To me, sometimes people like him need to be called out on what they say without the niceness involved.

Now on what you said in general about intent and stuff…I see what you are saying. I don’t believe that white people would vote for an internment camp on a whim or support a sudden genocide. I do however see it as less of an inability to understand people of other races and more of a choice not to. They live in a society that allows them to benefit from being white, so they support policies that unfairly benefit them and fight against things that help people of other races as well. They make the active choice to argue against racial harmony, we live in a modern world with modern technology where they have the chance to see people of other groups in more than one light, yet choose to stick with stereotypes. Many of them have trouble even talking to a Black person with any ounce of respect, even if they don’t see them as animals or inhuman.

So how do people of color appeal to white people so that they can “get it” when it seems like they just choose not to? In my experience in discussing race (off-line of course) before it gets derailed it often seems like there are white people who want black people to do well, but it would require too much of a reality check for them to acknowledge the roadblocks in their way.

I can definitely get on that “choice” bandwagon. It’s what I refer to as ‘willful ignorance’. Humans don’t want to be wrong and they’ll utilize whatever means necessary to maintain that facade. Whites don’t want to support racism or believe that their actions support a racist society. Hence, all the fallacies they use (“anger, hatred, scripted denials, blame-shifting, Repeatedly Missing the Point, Changing the Subject and that strange deer-in-the-headlights look on their face.”) in a weak effort to be right about what they perceive.

@leigh
I am intentionally ambiguous as to my race, gender and orientation in this profile. Over the years I have discovered that words are often judged by the status of their speaker. Example: I was having a good conversation in this blog re: my views until it became apparent that I was not (at least 100%) black. The conversation ended immediately.
My words are important to me, and I want them judged by their merit alone. Not by the background of their author.
I will only tell you that I am a mixed-race human living in a Eurocentric society.

I’m still waiting on the slightest bit of support for your claim, but bookies have dropped the odds of getting it down to 1:10.

@

And I’m still waiting for a response to my previous post, one you (albeit FINALLY!!) shied away from.

But nonetheless i think that link you provided is the only hoax here. That autor gives Ann Coulter a run for her money in the “Our Blacks”-B.S. racist-shit-award-of-the-year.” Which refrigerator college did he graduate from? LOL. Honestly, if those are the quality of sources you are going to provide, then we should back away right now to save you from a world of embarrassment. =D

@leigh
I am intentionally ambiguous as to my race, gender and orientation in this profile. Over the years I have discovered that words are often judged by the status of their speaker. Example: I was having a good conversation in this blog re: my views until it became apparent that I was not (at least 100%) black. The conversation ended immediately.
My words are important to me, and I want them judged by their merit alone. Not by the background of their author.
I will only tell you that I am a mixed-race human living in a Eurocentric society.

Thank you for responding. I can understand your decision to be ambiguous. At times, I have wondered if I should refrain from revealing my ethnic background, too. Not that it should matter. However, there have been instances when the dialogue ended once a person finds out I’m not of the same background. Anyway, I was simply curious. Thanks again for replying back. 🙂

No, it was not me telling someone to hug a white person. First name coincidence only.

“Yes, there are class systems in many conutries, but only in America is race used to dictate who is “superior.””

How many countries have you lived in? I’ve lived in several, spent lots of time in many more, and there is ALWAYS a system in place to benefit those in power. Sometimes it is based on race, sometimes class, sometimes tribe/ethnicity within a race, other times on religion, and sometimes on a hard to decipher cast system. Sometimes it is a combination of these.

“Was it Blacks who were known for having other Blacks serve as slaves and maids?”

Yes. The Atlantic slave trade was built on top of the African slave trade. Someone sold the slaves into captivity. When the British moved to end the slave trade with their Navy, it was certain African nations in addition to the slave holders at the other end who opposed it.

Also, actually no. You can’t really compare the taking of slaves from prisoners of war between tribes where they are released after a certain number of years to the race based abhorrent practice of slavery that the Europeans practiced for centuries. Even the indentured servitude that the Europeans practiced was often abusive against the poor and devalued members of their society, even without the racial differences.

The only time where there was a racist ideology conceived specifically to excuse the (previously seen as immoral) practice of slavery that led to the dehumanization and near genocide of a group of people was when white people wanted to classify non-whites to excuse their actions. Because native Americans and Africans were the ones used for manual labor, it was deemed appropriate to classify them as lower on the scale. The United States was a country where slaves were kept since before it’s formation in the same conditions, and where a racial bias was used as the reason to keep them for centuries. It is also one of the only places where racism was one of the founding principals of it’s country, made even more apparent due to the amount of time spent talking about “freedom from persecution”. So again, you cannot really say “They did it first!” You also cannot say that the Europeans wanted to end it when the Africans did not.

@ wanpinao,

Yes, it’s an uphill battle definitely. I’ve worked pretty hard to get past my own racial hang ups and prejudices to be a new, less judgmental individual. It seemed like it clicked for me once I was willing to stop associating “most” with “all” and stopped trying to excuse abhorrent actions just because I feel defensive. Humanity has been to the moon, mastered flight, yet people can’t learn how to have their world-view challenged.

I do the same thing for the same reasons. Usually I find that when people get an idea of what your race is, they often will change their way of dealing with you online. I don’t have a lot of experience commenting online on this subject, but I have read through discussions where your sanity/experience/and knowledge are called into question if you don’t fit.

Correction, I meant to say that you cannot really use the situation with the English trying to end it in their navy under protest of slave holders and certain African nations, that doesn’t really relate to the question you were answering.

You’re right Ace, in at least one African nation the slaves were executed en mass in yearly celebrations rather than kept in slavery. The fact remains that Europeans were pretty much limited to the coastal ports where Africans brought other Africans as captives to sell. The slaves might have been prisoners of war, but many were also kidnap victims and criminals. The answer to her question remains “yes”.

So again, you cannot really say “They did it first!”

Strawman. Can’t make it through a post without one, can you. Nobody involved “did it first”. Slavery has been around for as long as historical records exist – and still exists in Africa and the Middle East among other places.

“You also cannot say that the Europeans wanted to end it when the Africans did not. ”

Yes, you can, in the case of the British at least. Historical documentation is quite accurate on this point.

How about avoiding the immature attacks and focus on the argument hm? It just makes you less credible.

Again, your not addressing the fact that in American History, the only people who owned blacks legally were white people working under a racial agenda created purely to excuse the dehumanization of those people.

Slavery has been around for a long time around the world. However we are discussing American slavery, a racist institution. You cannot rationalize it by saying other people did it to, in fact that is a very common derailment technique used by people who don’t want to actually address what’s being said about slavery.

Also, does that explain why there was such an anti-Black sentiment in Britain, or why the people who came from Britain to the United States felt that slavery was something they should be able to do? Clearly ending that slavery (if your even correct, my historical info says differently) was not done because they thought it was wrong to imprison and dehumanize Black people because they continued to do it after that.

I never said that self-reliance would lead to less racism. I said it would reduce the IMPACT of racism. The specific impact I speak of is the inability to build wealth. Opening a business and getting an education by itself is not self-reliance if you still focus solely on Whites to employ you or support your business.

Some practical ways to be self-reliant:

1. Open and support Black businesses aimed at Black clientele. Blacks like everyone else need and use Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, Accountants, Barbershops and Dry cleaners. Blacks should actively look for and support Black professionals and businesses. Self-reliance. Jews do this very well.

2. Buy and fix up rental property to rent out for passive income (yes you will need a mortgage loan and you can get one if you keep your credit right). Do it again and again. Your passive income will increase and increase eventually creating self-reliance. You’re not going to fire yourself. Jews also do this very well.

3. Learn how to broker. I love the guys who buy 30 bottle waters for $5 and flip it for $30. Self-reliance. Sounds silly? How much did you pay for your last Heineken at a restaurant, $6? How much does it cost at the corner store? $1.50. How much do they pay for it? $0.75. There are always things to broker. Jews definitely do this well!

4. Learn to Invest. Open an online brokerage account, buy a “Series 7” book and learn how to make money from money via stocks, dividends, bonds and other asset classes. And no, you don’t need a lot of money to get started. $100 will do as long as you keep adding to your position over time. Be smart, wealth will grow. Self-reliance. Do Jews do this? Fuggedaboutit!!

5. Stay current on tax policy and understand how to use it.

6. For crying out loud, if you have kids, get a life insurance policy!!!! It is really not that expensive. Some are only $15 – $20 a month.

7. Don’t depend solely on someone to GIVE you a job. Instead MAKE a job by producing a product or service that enough people will want and will pay for. It doesn’t need to be a big idea, fancy or require a lot of seed money. It just needs to fill some need don’t matter how small or mundane.

8. Get a side hustle. You can learn to cut hair – $15 a pop. You can DJ – $500 a pop. You can learn to be a photographer for weddings – $1000 a pop. More Self-reliance.

9. Support Black art and artists. In particular, support underground music artists with no record deal.

10. Support Black produced movies and movies with Black actors in positive roles. By doing so we send a signal that there is a market out there for it.

I have a hundred more.

Always remember, regardless of your education, or profession, if you look solely to the White community to give you a job, or support your business, that is not self-reliance. You are only setting yourself up to be hung out to dry at some point in the future. It can be an initial part of your strategy to get some seed money but you have to plan to transition away from it over time. If enough Blacks did this, more money would circulate among ourselves and we would become much more self-reliant over time. I would rather spend time on this than trying to convince millions of Whites one by one to see the error of their ways while they get to enjoy life and we suffer. I don’t think so. That’s a waste of time!

@Ace – how about sticking to the point instead of creating strawmen and it won’t get pointed out. That isn’t immature, in spite of your to date inability from refraining.

Let’s go back to the original quote: “So will Africans hate me? Was it Blacks who were sailing the boat that brought them to America? Was it Blacks who were known for having other Blacks serve as slaves and maids?”

You see the word “African” there? I answered the third question in the context of the first. That is not derailment, however much you want to make everything that doesn’t fit your narrow minded requirements “derailment.” It’s called answering the question, with historical data, no more, no less. Simply because it doesn’t present the story you want told is irrelevant. The answer is yes – blacks were known for having other blacks as maids an slaves. In fact someone else even posted a picture of two freedman and two slaves, all black, from another country in the Americas on a different thread. I don’t know if freedman in the USA could own slaves. I know the Native Americans owned black slaves. Were there freedman working as crew of the slave ships from Africa? I don’t know and have never seen anything to indicate that, which isn’t conclusive.

“Also, does that explain why there was such an anti-Black sentiment in Britain, or why the people who came from Britain to the United States felt that slavery was something they should be able to do? Clearly ending that slavery (if your even correct, my historical info says differently) was not done because they thought it was wrong to imprison and dehumanize Black people because they continued to do it after that.”

I don’t know to what specifically you are referring, nor have I commented on that. Nor do I have any idea what you are talking about with respect to “your historical data says differently”. Slave trading was banned in the British Empire in 1807, and slavery itself in 1834. The British Navy interdicted the Atlantic trade, sending slave ships back to Africa, in spite of the requests by several African kingdoms that the trade be allowed to continue. I’m sure that the motivations of the British for banning slavery were complex and not monolithic within the empire, but I haven’t speculated on why they did what they did. The facts that they did end it and the rest are on firm ground.

I am not rationalizing anything here – these are historical facts pertinent to the question that was asked.

I’m honestly done arguing with you for tonight. You pretend to be an expert on things and then can’t handle people telling you differently. You like to be condescending towards people here and then can’t even understand why they might be calling you out for what you say. Maybe someone with more patience can deal with you, or I will tomorrow.

All I can say is that you cannot throw in the “Blacks owned slaves” argument when people are talking about racism in an American context, and the question you answered was one talking about “did blacks own blacks”. You also cannot diminish the impact white people had on what slavery became by throwing out little quips like how the English ended slavery (despite treating the Black people in their countries and colonies just as badly as if they were slaves). Things don’t end just because they end on paper.

Also, that entire argument you made about the subject was based on the premise that the British wanted to end the slavery while slave owners and certain African nations did not. That was clearly an argument you made meant to support your claim that Africans owned black slaves while at the same time trying to portray slavery as a morally subjective thing. So yes, I recruitment reading about the treatment ex-slaves had before you throw out the idea that they (the British) ended anything, since the treatment they had sure didn’t change.

There is only one problem investing into the stock markets. It is there to rip you off and it is run by very small bunch of (mainly) white guys who stole 770 billion dollars of your tax dollars in 2008.

The real begin would be, I think, something like this: those black athletes, stars etc. making millions a year would invest directly into black communities, opening new business there etc. They have the capital to do that. The trick is this: do not try tp squeeze maximum profit but settle for much less. It really makes no difference if the corner store is run by a black guy of he rips the customers off like the korean one or anybody else. Same with the land lords or any other business people. Yes, you can and should make a profit for your investment, but is 5-15% too little? Why it has to be 250-1500%?

The reason why there are so many poor in USA is the System. In order to have billionaires, you must have millions who do not have nothing. If the americans would really like to do something about that, they would have to go back to the progressive taxation which was done away by the governments from Nixon to Reagan to Bush.

Also it is good to remember that it was the Nixon administration which decided to sell the health care to the private sector and begin the run down of the public health care sector. And once that was done, not only the income divide went on to open up but also the health divide which again contributes to the poverty.

In the very core of this System is racism. It is a big part of it. It keeps the ethnic groups apart, on each others throats and it keeps the poor fighting against each other. And I quote again the most corrupt political boss New York has ever seen: “You can always hire the other half of the poor to kill off the other half.”

That thinking still prevails in the halls of the power and it is still practised on the streets every day. Hire a bunch of guys, give them a badge and a uniform, send them patrol the poor neighborhoods etc. Desing the judicial system so that the wealth provides the biggest defense against the most prosecutions and that poverty results in convictions almost automatically. Design the urban inviroment in ethnic islands and ghettoes, including the white suburbian “ghettoes”, which can be dealt one by one and controlled more easily and played one against the other. Flame the mistrust, fear and hate trough media campaigns and bulletins, always bring up the negative news and information, and most of all: propagate that there is no alternative, there is no choice. This is the Only game in town.

“All I can say is that you cannot throw in the “Blacks owned slaves” argument when people are talking about racism in an American context, and the question you answered was one talking about “did blacks own blacks”.”

I wasn’t throwing an argument of any sort. A question was asked, a question was answered factually. Yes, blacks owned blacks. The question was asked in an African context, whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Period. Case closed. How you read the item of data past that point is completely on you. Blacks owned blacks, in Africa, in the Americas, and perhaps in the US. If you actually know something on the US case post it instead of choosing a tantrum.

“You also cannot diminish the impact white people had on what slavery became by throwing out little quips like how the English ended slavery”

Your strawman is all on you. The diminishing is all in your mind, not in what I wrote. Your focus in on the English ending their slavery instead of the point that answered part of the question: when doing so they documented cases where they were asked not to so the Atlantic slave trade could continue. Note that the end of the Atlantic trade didn’t end the African internal trade, nor the Arab trade, which had been going on far longer. The answer to the second question asked was a no, unless you consider that other Africans stuck the slaves on board and possibly served as grew as well – I don’t know about the last and I intend to find out. It doesn’t diminish the role of the white people involved at all – they did what they did. Others played other roles. I’m sorry if you are upset that white responsibility doesn’t total 100% for the Atlantic trade but that isn’t my doing – that’s the history.

(despite treating the Black people in their countries and colonies just as badly as if they were slaves).

You haven’t documented this – it could be true, I know it is for Belgium as one example, but I don’t know about the British in this regard. Given that they threw their own people on boats to prison colonies in other countries for the crime of stealing bread it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. It is however irrelevant to the question that was asked, and is in fact an example of derailment.

“Also, that entire argument you made about the subject was based on the premise that the British wanted to end the slavery while slave owners and certain African nations did not.”

Simply a fact. Whatever the British did after that, it wasn’t slavery. They were no doubt cruel, inhumane, and arrogant towards the subject people of the empire. You however are still missing the point which was to answer the questions you so far have almost completely dodged.

“That was clearly an argument you made meant to support your claim that Africans owned black slaves while at the same time trying to portray slavery as a morally subjective thing.”

No, this strawman is entirely in your mind. The first is undeniable, the second is completely erroneous. It was never a morally subjective thing, and if you read on the court cases in England that led to the banning of slavery you will see the arguments. Slavery was however a relatively (compared to today) common thing at various times in human history, including that time period. The only ethnic group I am aware of that can be clearly said not to practice it were the Aboriginal Australians and isolated populations here and there. However, you are again going beyond the scope of the questions that were asked and answered.

“So yes, I recruitment reading about the treatment ex-slaves had before you throw out the idea that they (the British) ended anything, since the treatment they had sure didn’t change.”

Yes, it did. Surely not far enough, but things were changing. The Atlantic shipment of people was effectively shut down. Slave ships were interdicted and returned to Africa. That isn’t to say that they didn’t have a long way to go before they got to the moral standards of today – even with their own people and the Irish. However that again was not in the scope of the question I answered.

“The reason why there are so many poor in USA is the System. In order to have billionaires, you must have millions who do not have nothing.”

I don’t think this is true. A big reason there are so many with nothing is that most people don’t understand the economic system in this country and how wealth creation really works. Anyone in this country can create wealth (by providing a product or service) and provide it to someone else for money (the exchange of wealth) to then provide it to somone else for different wealth that they need (milk, bread). As I stated before most people rely on someone else to GIVE them a job instead of trying to MAKE a job. Right now, those jobs are being GIVEN to someone else in another country for peanut wages. If you MAKE your own job (or at least a side job), you may have to rely more on your own steam and may not become rich but you will be far from having nothing.

“There is only one problem investing into the stock markets. It is there to rip you off”

Not if you know what you are doing and understand the difference between investing and trading.

“But nonetheless i think that link you provided is the only hoax here. That autor gives Ann Coulter a run for her money in the “Our Blacks”-B.S. racist–award-of-the-year.” Which refrigerator college did he graduate from? LOL. Honestly, if those are the quality of sources you are going to provide, then we should back away right now to save you from a world of embarrassment. =D”

This is known as attacking the messenger, instead of the data. It is done when someone has absolutely nothing otherwise. That JT engages in this is hardly a surprise, as intellectual dishonesty is a staple of many here.

The author Manu Ampim while somewhat unorthodox is real and at Contra Costa College in the Bay Area. There are at least 10 pages of results on him when his name is searched. He appears to be quite legit. I didn’t see anything to indicate otherwise, but then if you weren’t lazy and looking for a quite debate “point” you could have verified all of this for yourself.

Since you are willfully blind, i’ll repost the response you refuse to answer to:

———————-
I think you are expecting that Black people should spend their day trying to acquaint themselves with the idiosyncracies of White psychology per every individual.

When there are featural qualities (i.e. whiteness) that allow Blacks to make often accurate assessments of whites, why would they need to spend the time or energy trying to find out who is the exception to the rule.

The fact of the matter is that they don’t need to find the exception to the rule. Black people can predict with a strong level of accuracy what types of behaviors and statements to expect from the prototypical white.

Not all whites are racist. However, not all birds fly: Does that mean we stop understanding that one common feature across many variations of birds is that they can fly?

Reliability vs. validity. It may be an invalid construct across the board but it proves reliable 95% of the time.

So who are you to say that Blacks shouldn’t use such an heuristic?

——————————

As for the Chescaleigh video, If you look at the $hit white girls say to Black girls video alone (not to mention her other videos) you will see that there are millions of hits on that, many in concordance with what Francesca has put forward. Add in her second follow-up video, popular discourse about the subject in the news media, and that there are scores of other blogs and websites that have been open for years with the same point of view like:

That that same experience exists where i am from according to many Black female acquaintances, that the posters here attest to it, and that people on youtube are creating video responses which across the board are coming out in support of it is just more validation that you are all sorts of wrong on the matter of white microaggression. That hasn’t stopped you before from peddling ignorance.

As for the exact number, If you are looking for a poll on the matter to quantify the number… well i find it as disingeneous of a request as anything else you have requested. It is called subtle/implicit reason for a reason [duh].

As far as the Willie Lynch documentation, there are books dedicated to debating the veracity of this letter – the jury is still out.

Whether the speech was given or whether it was a symbolic representation, the tactics outlined in the letter have been widely accepted amongst American historians as those commonly used to squash slave rebellions/sew dissent amongst slaves by white slave masters.

The worst kind of “allies” are those who are doing it for themselves, to prove themselves that they aren’t racist. Being non-racist and anti-racist is a good thing and they know that’s how good people are supposed to be. So they want to portray themselves as someone who has these virtues. To prove that they are good.

Since you are willfully blind, i’ll repost the response you refuse to answer to:

———————-
I think you are expecting that Black people should spend their day trying to acquaint themselves with the idiosyncracies of White psychology per every individual.

When there are featural qualities (i.e. whiteness) that allow Blacks to make often accurate assessments of whites, why would they need to spend the time or energy trying to find out who is the exception to the rule.

The fact of the matter is that they don’t need to find the exception to the rule. Black people can predict with a strong level of accuracy what types of behaviors and statements to expect from the prototypical white.

Not all whites are racist. However, not all birds fly: Does that mean we stop understanding that one common feature across many variations of birds is that they can fly?

Reliability vs. validity. It may be an invalid construct across the board but it proves reliable 95% of the time.

So who are you to say that Blacks shouldn’t use such an heuristic?

——————————

As for the Chescaleigh video, If you look at the $h#t white girls say to Black girls video alone (not to mention her other videos) you will see that there are millions of hits on that, many in concordance with what Francesca has put forward. Add in her second follow-up video, popular discourse about the subject in the news media, and that there are scores of other blogs and websites that have been open for years with the same point of view like:

That that same experience exists where i am from according to many Black female acquaintances, that the posters here attest to it, and that people on youtube are creating video responses which across the board are coming out in support of it is just more validation that you are all sorts of wrong on the matter of white microaggression. That hasn’t stopped you before from peddling ignorance.

As for the exact number, If you are looking for a poll on the matter to quantify the number… well i find it as disingeneous of a request as anything else you have requested. It is called subtle/implicit reason for a reason duh.

As far as the Willie Lynch documentation, there are books dedicated to debating the veracity of this letter – the jury is still out.

Whether the speech was given or whether it was a symbolic representation, the tactics outlined in the letter have been widely accepted amongst American historians as those commonly used to squash slave rebellions/sew dissent amongst slaves by white slave masters.

So, you don’t have a single cite for the millions you claimed other than people watched her video, which isn’t surprising given she is a comedian and all her videos had many hits most of which don’t deal with race. You don’t even have any data on who liked it past the 30,000 or so who did and marked it such. You simply made up what turned out to be a grandiose pompous statement of fabrication.

All your bluster adds up to zip besides that fact that you are dishonest in the extreme.

“Reliability vs. validity. It may be an invalid construct across the board but it proves reliable 95% of the time. So who are you to say that Blacks shouldn’t use such an heuristic?”

The people who don’t like blacks can apply the same lack of logic, JT, with exactly the same validity. So now what? What has that bought you exactly besides a brown nose?

“As far as the Willie Lynch documentation, there are books dedicated to debating the veracity of this letter – the jury is still out.”

Nope. The documentation is a complete modern day forgery, and there is no evidence that the psychological content claimed in the letter was ever practiced. The speech never happened, for all the reasons listed in the cite. It’s right up there with the Protocols as a forgery designed for one reason – to inflame. You go on defending it, and I’ll add crackp-t to irrational and dishonest as your characteristics.

“The bottom-line is that the veracity of the Willie Lynch letter is still widely debated. :

Yeah, so are creationism and young Earth geology. Many cling to the veracity of The Protocols. Debated in the sense that some are so ridiculous that they’ll hold onto a doctrinal position in spite of the fact that those able to reason have moved on to debate real issues. Clinging to falsehoods isn’t going to make a position attractive to anyone but those in the choir.

“Such a victory is something an ivory tower troglodyte might enjoy. However, not unlike the premise of your argument, it is vastly divorced with reality.”

At this point there is no longer any reason to suspect that you and reality have ever been introduced.

Yes, JT, I took the first, but not the second. On the first I received a “slightly preferred white faces”. In my opinion the biggest flaw in the test was the reversal of the white/black good/bad that occurs in the last part. After spending time with them one way in the first half of it and getting used to one side or the other, the second half I’d hit buttons too quickly. They claim to account for this though.

i don’t disagree with the results. The results were fine. I’m stating what my experience was in that section. it seems to be they should have alternated every page, not gotten people used to one and then switched it.

Bottom line, regardless of what happened, the perpetrators are in too much pain (often inflicted inadvertently at that) to think rationally.
There are BWE believers in New York who (despite the readily available video tape and the not guilty verdict) *still* that Rayon McIntosh committed his crimes due to hatred of black women.
There are BBM (bitter black men) who take every/any slight from a black woman as an affront to their dignity, or who combine a short list of slights and arrows into a “conspiracy”.
IMO, both sides need to get over themselves and take into account the fact that its the *rare* person (regardless of background) who expresses blanket waves of hate without reason.
Every black man who I’ve *ever* known who vocally derided black women had experienced negative reactions from black women that either equalled or were even worse than mine (personal disclosure: I have a drug-addicted mother who had attempted to pump me out on three separate occasions to *guys*, a family which refuses to acknowledge her addiction and also forces me to interact with her, and I lived a life in which I was at least 2 years and 6 inches shorter than my peers until I went to university. Yes, I spent parts of my childhood as literal *rape bait* to feed someone else’s drug habit while being thoroughly unattractive to the women who I wanted to date, and I know black men whose lives were/are *worse* than mine! I mean, I’ve undergone therapy and finally grown to my full size, who am I to judge a guy who *was* actually raped to provide his mother with drugs, or who was surrounded by women who refused to even consider dating him, or who were raised as their family’s whipping boy for badmouthing women?)

Likewise, I know a lot of women who made the mistake of dating/chasing the wrong guys, who let ambition prevent them from marrying too early, who were sexually abused or worse, who have spent years of their lives alone for lack of “suitable” partners (IMHO, I’d say that being pumped and dumped by a jerk is even *worse* than not receiving any attention at all. When you receive no attention, you can always hope that things will get better, but being good enough for sex and nothing else *has* to be grating for a person who was raised with the idea of a Prince Charming.) When I’ve spoken to women (in person, at least) with those issues, it made me want to be what they were looking for.

But, as I learned the hard way, *anyone* can be DBR. Women who love to call out guys for their negative actions tend to ignore their own actions (eg. The woman who complains about how men don’t like a “strong black woman”, yet has a tendency to be either weak and indecisive or obstinate to the point of impenetrability.) I’m typing this from the back of a full bus. As my fingers glide across the keyboard, there’s a woman yelling about how she’s tired of men “shooting their c*m all up in her and then not calling her back.” Excuse me, but am I *supposed* to be attracted to a woman with that level of self-absorption? If/When she discovers a BWE site, do you think that she’ll mention that she’s the type of person who loudly and explicitly rants about her sexual deficiencies on public transit, or do you think that she’s going to use her best English to detail the myriad ways in which she’s been “failed” by the black man? I have a good friend who suffers from being short (he’s about 5’5″). Because he was another of those “black women or bust” black men, he made an idiot of himself by chasing after black women without figuring out whether he would be attractive to them or not (while making a few majorly bad decisions. Suffice to say, one of the women who he was trying to impress was able to convince him to send her a picture of his genitalia, which she then proceeded to send to every black women who she knew with a note detailing his name/job/living quarters/etc.). After three years of chasing and chasing without doing anything to make himself look “f*ckable”, he finally gave up and found a white woman through the Internet. He doesn’t (AFAIK), badmouth black women on the internet, but considering the violation of his privacy and subsequent ridicule, I could sympathise with him if he did.

But, in the end, they’re both wrong for doing what they’re doing (BBMs and BWEs) spreading out their personal anger for relief of their own pain. Hate begets hate, always.

All I can gather is that it took me more to decide when the target was black (be it armed or unarmed), and I didn’t shoot any innocent black guys. But I can’t measure the level of my racism through these results.

“Yes, JT, I took the first, but not the second. On the first I received a “slightly preferred white faces”. In my opinion the biggest flaw in the test was the reversal of the white/black good/bad that occurs in the last part. ”

@ DL

Talk about intellectual dishonesty. The IAT doesn’t measure “preference for white or Black faces.” It measures the strength of associations between a categorical group and valenced descriptors (either positive or negative).

Your results, if i were to lend credibility to what you report, indicate your automatic preferences against the out-group “blacks.”

What a maroon! Since it had been a while since I’d taken it, all I remembered was what I posted. People with at least half a functioning neo-cortex, which apparently excludes you, know exactly what I meant.

So mine is “Slight automatic preference for White people compared to Black people”.

There are two conclusions possible: one is that you as usual probably don’t know what you’re talking about, or two, you’re just being as usual the back end of an animal.

“Your results, if i were to lend credibility to what you report, indicate your automatic preferences against the out-group “blacks.” ”

Whether you assign credibility or not, it’s apparent that option two above is exactly your problem as you knew what I meant. As far as the result is concerned, big deal. A ” slight preference” as far as I could tell from the FAQ is as positive as it gets.

@TruthBeTold
I agree with the statement that blacks are the biggest threat to white America.
Turn on your TV and the proof is there.
For the young lady that said she is 16 and notices black men turning to non-black women, that has been indoctrinated in the black mind since slavery.
I am glad you pointed out that Blacks are indoctrined that White is right frmo the time of slavery today. I used to want to have blond hair, blue eyes and White skin and trade in my brown skin, dark eyes and dark hair for those Eurocentric features. I saw all the White girls with those features I mentioned getting the attention from guys. I thought those features were the best thing ever and I always watched TV,well MTV in my middle school years. It took me a long time to feel confident about my brown skin. A lot of black guys would flirt with light skinned and non Black girls at my old school, an exclusive Catholic school and the school I go to now, Forest High. It really brings my self esteem down at times. Just today, a Black guy who loves White girls said Black guys don’t like Black girls anymore.All his homeboys were shocked! Then he said that not all Black guys feel like that. I was relieved!
And everything Anagond wrote is true. A lot of Whites even the ”well meaning
ones” have an agenda for ”keeping” Blacks down in America. Not all Whies are like that. Some of them are kind and friendly like people in every other race. Some of my good friends are Whites.
And lots of Whites don’t like this website because Abagond knows their TRUE nature and Whites don’t like to be found out by us people of color. Especially the secretly racist ones.
And no, I am NOT bad mouthing ALL WHITES just the RACIST ONES i can’t stand!

No. While Abagond is quite unapologetic on his prejudice (providing reason after reason for it), you have surreptitiously tried to play the part of an objective mediator. You balk at the suggestion that your premises are slanted, that science conducted on the prevalence of white racism in contemporary society is “scientific racism.” In sum, you have forgotten to admit your own prejudices over the course of the dialogue had between other members. While simultaneously trying to portray yourself as impartial. It’s like sleeping with the department head and claiming you got the job because of your experience/abilities.

Doesnt that smack of the worst type of intellectual dishonesty?

By the way: how many tests did it take you to get to “slight preference.” The test studies implicit prejudice; taking the test more than once to improve your results is out of the question.

Confessing your racial bias is the first great step DL. Your posts might actually be taken seriously hereafter as you’re no longer attempting to convince anyone that your position is somehow more neutral or entrenched in reality than anyone elses.

People can now see you for what you are instead of trying to find you hiding behind your straw men.

Wow! This is like derailingfordummies.com. I didn’t realize how it really was until I was referred to this site. It like some whites read from a script when you try to have have conversations with them about race.