Post by pami619 on Mar 23, 2017 20:47:52 GMT

I'm in my twenties.I'm at this critical point in life where you should be already having a degree, a direction, a purpose.I tried pursuing administration, bachelor's degree and of course some other IT courses.I quit them all because I eventually felt this sudden desinterest in them so I had to take a rest of one year.I feel like a loser having so much potential yet not liking anything I am offered.I feel I am not suited for those boring nine to five jobs which are secure but what else do they give?Pursuing a more creative career cannot feed me or give me the security I want.Watching my friends going to University and still complaining knowing that they have less chances of ending up like someone living under a bridge is a tragedy.Knowing that I have to submit to the system and work in between thousands of unconscious people not questioning what they are doing and when you ask them, all they answer is "Oh well, that's life."No! Life is more than following some rules and living a monotonous life.

Basing on what I said, can you guys give me some good job examples I would find appealing and try to pursue.

I basically feel like the actor Leonardo Dicaprio talking about the Global Warming and messing with politics.

Post by multidimensional on Mar 24, 2017 0:03:15 GMT

Hello Pami,

Welcome to the forum. I recognize myself in your post a little, having been in similar situation where i went from one university to another, one job to another. Studying first Hotel management, then theology and now to be personal trainer, health coach (soon finished the education which is approximately a year long). I have a friend who work with computers and also live a very spiritual life simultaneously. Its a myth that all wise spiritual people walk out in dessert and abandon everything they have. Maybe if they become very very advanced and are close to enlightenment, they may possibly do for a time at least. But that is a unique case. Most spiritual people live quite ordinary life on surface or start own business. But that usually requires some knowledge in a particular area and good relationships.

As for choosing profession... Being a pastor or personal trainer both have one thing in common! a desire to help people... to make positive difference in peoples lifes, this is important for me and helps me choose what to study. Something i can give to others as a gift to improve their life quality. Be it knowledge or something practical or both...

Being spiritual to me is much more than meditation and prayer. It is to inspire others to search for their own truth/meaning at their own pace, in their own way and to be aware of the principle of Karma. For some it will be to live ordinary life with "kindness philosophy" as enough, some others desire "richer" spiritual life with various forms of meditation and such people value other kind of knowledge (spiritual knowledge) more.

so... "Give to others what you have in abundance" is something i also try to live by. It is not just about what to study... but how can you use that knowledge? and what kind of life do you think you want to live? What do you need to live such life?

Like i said earlier... my friend works with computers yet he is very spiritual person at the same time. For him... work is a way to put food on table. Is he unhappy then? no! Because he is truly "rich" in spirit.

As for me, i thirst for knowledge as a way of helping others and developing myself spiritually and also just as person. Shift in Perspective is useful regardless of what you choose.

Post by donq on Mar 24, 2017 11:37:26 GMT

Hi Pami,

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.-from The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

In that book, Campbell discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies.

I agree with multidimensional. And I don't think you are the only one. Everyone who starts his/her spiritual journey also feel the same. So did I. So did everyone here.So, where will you find your answer? Let me quote one of my favorite quotes:

"Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path, and there is not affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition."I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question...Does this path have a heart? One makes you strong; the other weakens you..."The trouble is nobody asks the question: and when a person finally realizes that they have taken a path without heart, the path is ready to kill them. At that point very few people stop to deliberate and leave the path."-from "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge" by Carlos Castaneda

Whether the book is just a fiction or not is not important, as its messages already stirred the hearts of millions of spiritual persons (readers) around the world.

You asked, "Basing on what I said, can you guys give me some good job examples I would find appealing and try to pursue."You, and only you, would be the only one who could answer that question. Choosing any job and has a heart. Even you are not interested in spirituality, it still works well. If you chose the job that you really like and are good at it. And there are many kinds of freelance job nowadays. It has nothing to do with your degree. And you don't need to go to your office, working nine to five. Anyway, if you are interested in spirituality, the path with the heart might be a bit more complicated. To make a long short, choosing the path that could also help others. The more you help other, the more your spiritual strength would grow.

Let me finish my post with this Zen (Buddhism) saying:

Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters;after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters;after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.

What does that means? It means that when you reached some spiritual point, you could do any job (you like) without any problem.

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 24, 2017 15:25:32 GMT

Hi Pami,

I found your post very interesting to read, and I know that many who aspire to live a spiritual life, all would love a job, that is more then just a job, but a vocation. I really liked the replies you had from Multi and Donq, I don't think there is anything I could say to add to it. I found their replies very helpful.

Great stories stories Monty, to convey and illustrate, to help understanding. I know I found it really helpful.

Love and lightKaz

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by mojomojo on Mar 24, 2017 23:15:46 GMT

Hi Pami,I can very much understand, where you are coming from, for some working a nine to five can be soul destroying.

A line I read in a book once, opened my eyes wide, this line was the top regret of people on their death bed, "I wish, I had lived a life more true to myself, than the life other people expected of me."

You have great advice already, but I will ask you the same question an old friend of mine asked me.If you had won the lotto and never had to worry about money ever again, what would you do?

Do what your heart is involved in, is great advice, but may not materialise straight away, you may have to build up to it, but do make sure your heart is in it, otherwise you will be wasting your time.

You must have a passion, finding a way to make your passion pay, is not always impossible, but like everything else in time, passions also change.

Post by pami619 on Mar 25, 2017 18:27:57 GMT

Welcome to the forum. I recognize myself in your post a little, having been in similar situation where i went from one university to another, one job to another. Studying first Hotel management, then theology and now to be personal trainer, health coach (soon finished the education which is approximately a year long). I have a friend who work with computers and also live a very spiritual life simultaneously. Its a myth that all wise spiritual people walk out in dessert and abandon everything they have. Maybe if they become very very advanced and are close to enlightenment, they may possibly do for a time at least. But that is a unique case. Most spiritual people live quite ordinary life on surface or start own business. But that usually requires some knowledge in a particular area and good relationships.

As for choosing profession... Being a pastor or personal trainer both have one thing in common! a desire to help people... to make positive difference in peoples lifes, this is important for me and helps me choose what to study. Something i can give to others as a gift to improve their life quality. Be it knowledge or something practical or both...

Being spiritual to me is much more than meditation and prayer. It is to inspire others to search for their own truth/meaning at their own pace, in their own way and to be aware of the principle of Karma. For some it will be to live ordinary life with "kindness philosophy" as enough, some others desire "richer" spiritual life with various forms of meditation and such people value other kind of knowledge (spiritual knowledge) more.

so... "Give to others what you have in abundance" is something i also try to live by. It is not just about what to study... but how can you use that knowledge? and what kind of life do you think you want to live? What do you need to live such life?

Like i said earlier... my friend works with computers yet he is very spiritual person at the same time. For him... work is a way to put food on table. Is he unhappy then? no! Because he is truly "rich" in spirit.

As for me, i thirst for knowledge as a way of helping others and developing myself spiritually and also just as person. Shift in Perspective is useful regardless of what you choose.

Thank you for the detailed reply. It helped me understand that I am not the only one.The thing is I am mixture of everything somedays spiritual some philosophical.I am not that much into spirituality but ever since I acknowledged it and read about it it really helped me shape my reality, my understanding of people's behaviors even my confidence.I've had some spiritual experiences like talking to spritis through a pendulum and a board and currently I am into tarot, also have a few books to read regarding studies beign made understanding energy and the world through a scientific point of view etc.Thing is, it is good helping people but by my experience they only help themselves I only guide them or show them the light after that they choose what to do with it.But I am not that into helping people who aren't on the same level of understanding I am on.I am actually surrounded by those people and it's not something I can help for now.I'll keep what you said in mind.

Post by pami619 on Mar 25, 2017 18:44:22 GMT

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.-from The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell

In that book, Campbell discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies.

I agree with multidimensional. And I don't think you are the only one. Everyone who starts his/her spiritual journey also feel the same. So did I. So did everyone here.So, where will you find your answer? Let me quote one of my favorite quotes:

"Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path, and there is not affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition."I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question...Does this path have a heart? One makes you strong; the other weakens you..."The trouble is nobody asks the question: and when a person finally realizes that they have taken a path without heart, the path is ready to kill them. At that point very few people stop to deliberate and leave the path."-from "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge" by Carlos Castaneda

Whether the book is just a fiction or not is not important, as its messages already stirred the hearts of millions of spiritual persons (readers) around the world.

You asked, "Basing on what I said, can you guys give me some good job examples I would find appealing and try to pursue."You, and only you, would be the only one who could answer that question. Choosing any job and has a heart. Even you are not interested in spirituality, it still works well. If you chose the job that you really like and are good at it. And there are many kinds of freelance job nowadays. It has nothing to do with your degree. And you don't need to go to your office, working nine to five. Anyway, if you are interested in spirituality, the path with the heart might be a bit more complicated. To make a long short, choosing the path that could also help others. The more you help other, the more your spiritual strength would grow.

Let me finish my post with this Zen (Buddhism) saying:

Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters;after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters;after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.

What does that means? It means that when you reached some spiritual point, you could do any job (you like) without any problem.

Incredible reply. It deserves credibility.You're absolutely right about everything the more I read it the more I understand what you're saying.I'm really sticking to choosing a job with my heart not my ego.I'll tell you what made me reject them, it felt off, it felt forced, forced for my greed, my security but happiness didn't seem to play a part.I might be okay working per say as a secretary but what meaning does my job have? Not much.I don't want to end up like someone who wasted years of their life and still are working something that they are stuck on doing.And I've seen many teachers as an example of that.It's true helping people helps me develop spiritually.I think the only path to know is by trying but University doesn't give you the chance to get too far from your own circle of studies and once you get your diploma you're there were you were meant to want it or not.That's why I feel pressured to act on something and the thing is, I have few interests in completely different things.From an English teacher to a Scientist from a Scientist to a designer from a designer to a psychologist.I like them equally and not enough to pursue them wholeheartedly.This is very difficult since I am a talanted creative person.Yet I sometimes reject them all and just want to lead a peaceful life not known by many, loved by few.

Amazing Zen quote, they are a living example and I know that time will show the way as I grow and have to ultimately risk.It is interesting to know that as you pointed out I can do anything I like because nothing would block me, ego, fear, ambition.

Post by pami619 on Mar 25, 2017 18:49:43 GMT

I found your post very interesting to read, and I know that many who aspire to live a spiritual life, all would love a job, that is more then just a job, but a vocation. I really liked the replies you had from Multi and Donq, I don't think there is anything I could say to add to it. I found their replies very helpful.

Great stories stories Monty, to convey and illustrate, to help understanding. I know I found it really helpful.

Love and lightKaz

Hi Kaz.I remember you replying to a different thread of mine and you can't imagine how much you have helped me.I am far from what I used to be back then, now I am more sure of myself, more in tune because Tarot really helped me shape and form my intuition.Yes their replies were unexpectedly good and both of them told me the same thing and that is that I, only me can know what is for me.And I'm still trying hard to heed my inner voice and currently am at crossroads but my soul is resting so I feel it doesn't speak because I am not ready, I am not already there but I know someday I would be.

Post by pami619 on Mar 25, 2017 18:59:34 GMT

Hi Pami,I can very much understand, where you are coming from, for some working a nine to five can be soul destroying.

A line I read in a book once, opened my eyes wide, this line was the top regret of people on their death bed, "I wish, I had lived a life more true to myself, than the life other people expected of me."

You have great advice already, but I will ask you the same question an old friend of mine asked me.If you had won the lotto and never had to worry about money ever again, what would you do?

Do what your heart is involved in, is great advice, but may not materialise straight away, you may have to build up to it, but do make sure your heart is in it, otherwise you will be wasting your time.

You must have a passion, finding a way to make your passion pay, is not always impossible, but like everything else in time, passions also change.

The last line from Donq, is very good advice.

Short reply yet filled with so many meaningful words.Yes to everything you said, it is soul draining to do what your heart isn't in it.To your question if I were to win the lotto, I would donate, probably travel, travel a lot, learn a different language.I would live a damage free environmental life recycle, less meat or no meat, install solar panels, drink clean water, plant my own garden, trees.I would have an electric car etc.I would probably live in nature and in a house separated from the noises and contamination of cities.But what how I do with that having a normal job, it would cost a fortune.This is a lifestyle I would live by whenever affordable.I don't want to live my life with regret and that is the biggest weight I carry because some mistakes are irreversible.Thank you.I really liked your directness like as if you spoke right through me.

Post by donq on Mar 26, 2017 7:07:39 GMT

Hi Pami,

I've seen you took your time and effort replied back to all the posts that had replied to you, that was a very solid proof that you had a very good spiritual quality in you. So, I thank you back for your thank.

Let me tell you a bit about my story, in return.

I got a Law degree around 30 years ago but didn't do anything with it at all (I even don't know where I put it.:D ) I totally changed my career because of my spiritual searching. Anyway, I still finished my university and got my degree, just for my parents. I started my job as a (book) proofreader first, then, writer, editor and translator. First I worked nine to five for almost 10 publishers for 10 years, before I quit and have been a freelancer for almost 20 years now. Being a freelancer is a tough life, even I got a lot of connections from my old publishers I used to work for, I have to tell you. Though it is good for your free spirit (and you don't have to fight ugly/dirty office politics), but you cannot know how much you would get paid each month (while you know so well how much you have to pay every month. hahaha). And it's much more worse if you are married and have kids. Yes, you can skip some meal without any problem, but how about your kids?

So, I think that (after I've seen your spiritual quality), it might be safer, if somehow you could finish your degree first, if possible. I mean it will make you have much more choices in the far future (whether you would really have to show your degree to them or not). For example, I still could go back to work as a lawyer anytime during all those 30 years. And some jobs (even publishing jobs) also required bachelor's degree, not just a diploma or less). Yes, for someone, they might need some time out (for their spiritual retreat) for some years, before coming back to start their (worldly) jobs, but as for your case, I don't think you need that. But starting your job now still needs some certificate, doesn't it? Maybe you don't need it, but your (future) clients might need. That's why we have some Certified Reiki Course (level 1-3), to name but a few. See? Even spiritual job like Reiki healing still needs something like that. Again, even you are born a natural Reiki master, you still need those certificates if you are going to start your job on this stuff. I apologize if this post sound like a grumpy old man. I could not stop myself because I'm really already old. lol Cheers from DonQ

P.S. Just curious, if you may, why "pami619"? What does 619 mean? (if it's personal, it's okay. you don't need to answer that).

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by pami619 on Mar 26, 2017 12:21:57 GMT

I've seen you took your time and effort replied back to all the posts that had replied to you, that was a very solid proof that you had a very good spiritual quality in you. So, I thank you back for your thank.

Let me tell you a bit about my story, in return.

I got a Law degree around 30 years ago but didn't do anything with it at all (I even don't know where I put it.:D ) I totally changed my career because of my spiritual searching. Anyway, I still finished my university and got my degree, just for my parents. I started my job as a (book) proofreader first, then, writer, editor and translator. First I worked nine to five for almost 10 publishers for 10 years, before I quit and have been a freelancer for almost 20 years now. Being a freelancer is a tough life, even I got a lot of connections from my old publishers I used to work for, I have to tell you. Though it is good for your free spirit (and you don't have to fight ugly/dirty office politics), but you cannot know how much you would get paid each month (while you know so well how much you have to pay every month. hahaha). And it's much more worse if you are married and have kids. Yes, you can skip some meal without any problem, but how about your kids?

So, I think that (after I've seen your spiritual quality), it might be safer, if somehow you could finish your degree first, if possible. I mean it will make you have much more choices in the far future (whether you would really have to show your degree to them or not). For example, I still could go back to work as a lawyer anytime during all those 30 years. And some jobs (even publishing jobs) also required bachelor's degree, not just a diploma or less). Yes, for someone, they might need some time out (for their spiritual retreat) for some years, before coming back to start their (worldly) jobs, but as for your case, I don't think you need that. But starting your job now still needs some certificate, doesn't it? Maybe you don't need it, but your (future) clients might need. That's why we have some Certified Reiki Course (level 1-3), to name but a few. See? Even spiritual job like Reiki healing still needs something like that. Again, even you are born a natural Reiki master, you still need those certificates if you are going to start your job on this stuff. I apologize if this post sound like a grumpy old man. I could not stop myself because I'm really already old. lol Cheers from DonQ

P.S. Just curious, if you may, why "pami619"? What does 619 mean? (if it's personal, it's okay. you don't need to answer that).

Such a helpful answer Donq.I was a little taken aback when you told me you got a law degree for nothing but because of your parents.In my case my parents support me at whatever I do and the choice is ultimately mine.Also a blessing and a curse that at such age I am already aware and I already call the quits.If I wasn't I would of easily found my passion but right now I view absolutely everything under a critical eye like for example who am I working for, what I am helping them do, how do I move things.Yes I have to at least pursue something and I have already decided doing it simply.I don't really like interacting with people everyday, it drains my energy so I would go with home studying.On my terms.Later on I'll decide on what to pursue at University.Something I would at least like or find appealing.

And funny thing to say but ever since a kid I was a fan of the WWE wrestling show if you know what I am talking about.My favorite character was Rey Misterio and his signature number was 619 which I found out to be a calling code in Mexico.So this has become my signature name.

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 26, 2017 14:00:28 GMT

Hi Pami,

I have really enjoyed reading all the replies to your post. One of the things I've come to realize as I've grown older. Is that nothing we do ever goes to waste. And that even if we cannot see the point of something at the time, later on down the road, it can prove to be very useful. The other thing I've come to realize, and I'm going to sound really old now lol is that 'don't make not finishing what you start, become a regular habit'. Spiritual practice, is all about developing self discipline. And while I would never tell someone that they should stay with something they hate no matter what. I do think if its too easy to give up, many will take that easy option.

My youngest son is 21 now, and since he left college he has started two different careers. Enginering and Catering. Both he's given up on before taking his exams. He also wanted to join the RAF and the bank. Neither of these he's been successful at joining so far. But you get the picture! Yes, he has picked up some skills along they way, but he stopped mid way in both of his early career choices and so has ended up not qualifying in either. He is doing a job that pays a good salary, but its factory work he's doing now. And while there is nothing wrong with that, potentially, he could have done so much more. I am sure he will eventually find what he is looking for, and for me as long as he is happy, I don't care what he does. But I can tell he isn't really happy, he is just treading water. I guess my fear is, that his giving up without seeing something through, will become a life long habit, and crossing over into his personal life too.

I did a two year secretarial/business studies course at college when I left school. There were many times when I felt like giving it up. But I did stick with it. Mainly because I knew my mum would have killed me if I hadn't lol But, in later life I'm so glad I didn't. The book-keeping and clerical skills I was able to use working from home when I had my babies. Bringing some much needed extra income. I did office work and hotel reception work. The latter, really brought out, and made use of my people skills. So when I decided to train as an advisor with the Citizens Advice Bureau later on, a charitable organization that helps and supports the vulnerable with anything from legal problems to assisting them with paper work connected to disability, mental health and consumer problems. The admin and working with people really helped me. I also trained with the Red Cross, again through my work with the CAB, doing therapeutic massage. At around the same time I did my Reiki Attunements. As I look back at my life, I can see now how each thing I did, later on helped me with something else. Our lives truly are made of many coloured threads; each one intersecting, weaving a beautiful pattern, that is our life.

So as Monty (Donq) has said, don't give up on your degree work just yet, unless you really hate it. Don't disregard out of hand anything as seeming at this point in your life to have no purpose. Trust me, there will be many things in life that you will find difficult and unpleasant to do, but sometimes have to be done. Teach yourself to be self disciplined from an early age, and this will stand you in good stead in the future. Don't be someone who avoids difficult situations, because you can. Make changing direction in life a personal choice once you've tied up any loose ends or resolved a problem and are then free to move on, not because your running away from it. Can you see how one thing can easily lead too another? Spirituality is about self growth through self understanding. Life is the best school for this that there can possibly be. Make use of all your experiences as a tool for growth. Because honestly, I think everything we do in this life does have a purpose, and that it is part of our destiny. You just can't see the whole picture yet.

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by donq on Mar 27, 2017 5:32:23 GMT

Hi Pami,

There was a time when I didn't know how to say no (frankly speaking, I've still learning how to do so as I'm a very slow learner) and that was the reason why I could not say no to my parents (at least, they left me alone after I did that. ). But it turned out that, getting my degree did help me getting my job I liked later.I know that if you asked anyone in the system, you would get the same answer that Karen and I gave you: finish your university, finding a well-paid job, blah, blah, blah. Though our advices might not sound like spiritual ones at all, but, I believe, Karen and I talked from our direct experiences. And they really connected. Though it seems to have nothing to do with spirituality, but your degree will really help you to find the very job you like someday in the future, or at least help you along the way to find it. Also, kind of being safe than sorry. That's why even someone also have to study hard while they are working so that they can apply for the better jobs later. And yes, you can get some degree even you study at home (or evening classes, after work).I was thinking about some of my (spiritual) friends. They quit their (worldly) office job and bought some farms in upcountry, to grow chemical-free vegetables (pesticide residue free). They really meant well, but alas!, only after a years, they had to come back and started to find office jobs again. Why? Not to mention that they didn't really know how to farming, all their neighbor farms used pesticide and all insects around there came to scrum my friends' farms. Oops! sorry. Didn't mean to laugh. Bad me! I lost contact with them long time ago and didn't know if they could save enough money to go back to start their farms again or not. But it seemed like to be free spirits, really cost my friends more than other worldly persons. If only they could "live and let live".

Chuang Tzu told a story about this:

Taking a lot of trouble to unify thing s without knowing that things are in fact in uniformity is illustrated by the tale “three in the morning”. What is meant by "three in the morning"? Once upon a time, there was a monkey-keeper who fed the monkeys with acorns. When he said that he would give them three bushels of acorns in the morning and four bushels of acorns in the evening, all the monkeys were angry with his arrangement. However, when he said that he would give them four bushels of acorns in the morning and three bushels of acorns in the evening, all the monkeys were pleased with his arrangement. With the same number of acorns, there was an abrupt change of pleasure and anger because the keeper followed the natural bent of the monkeys. That is why the sage reconciles right and wrong, thus enjoying a peaceful and harmonious life. That is called the principle of ‘‘live and let live".

P.S. WWE wrestling? wow! Amazing! first I thought it was about numberology.

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by mojomojo on Mar 27, 2017 9:04:26 GMT

I have always been of the opinion, that spirituality is concerned with the growth of spirit, and cares not, or may not even recognize the physical.There are laws in nature that must be followed, and mans circumstance creates the same unbreakable laws, so practicalities must be faced, the vast movement of labour throughout the E.U. has caused people without academic skills, few job opportunities and low pay.In simple black and white terms, in this day and age, no degree means very little job opportunity, and less chance of decent wages.Having said that there are those that make it, through writing or art, some with just a good idea that sells, but I imagine these are few and far between.In my experience spirituality will not make life easier, and any lofty ideas will be shattered by life eventually, but that does not mean you can not find your slot in life and be happy.I once watched a program, of a young man who was spiritually inclined, he wanted to live on his own, in the wild, away from people. This he did, in the wilderness, living out of an old derelict bus, with his books on how to survive.He looked like he was doing well and was very happy, one day he woke up with severe stomach cramps and vomiting, he staggered to reach his book on edible plants, and the realization that swept over his face, as he discovered he had eaten a poisonous mushroom, too weak to leave, he lay there. Someone found him months later,dead, not a pretty sight.There is nothing wrong with wanting to be free, but it does have its costs.

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 27, 2017 13:07:38 GMT

Hi Pami,

I was just re reading your original post. I meant to say this to you before, and got distracted; that you are absolutely not, a loser. You are a sensitive and intelligent young lady, who wants her life to mean something. You are trying to live purposely as a spiritual being. But the truth is, you already are what you seek to be. Buddhist mindfulness teaches us that to live mindfully as a spiritual being, is to live completely in the present. Would you say honestly, that at this time, you are living in the present moment? Not looking back with regret, or forward in worry? Can you see where I'm going with this?

I'm trying to figure out, if your thinking your lack of interest with the academic courses you've been pursuing so far, are to do with the fact that you believe they wont enhance your spiritual life? Or is it just that you've realized that the things you've tried so far are uninteresting and boring, and not what you want to spend the rest of your life doing. If your intelligent enough to do a degree course it shows that you have the ability to try anything. I often wonder, if it is worse to have too many options to choose from, then not not enough lol You say you've been forced to rest a year. Can I ask what you've been doing in that year so far?

Love and lightKaz

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by pami619 on Mar 27, 2017 16:08:12 GMT

I have really enjoyed reading all the replies to your post. One of the things I've come to realize as I've grown older. Is that nothing we do ever goes to waste. And that even if we cannot see the point of something at the time, later on down the road, it can prove to be very useful. The other thing I've come to realize, and I'm going to sound really old now lol is that 'don't make not finishing what you start, become a regular habit'. Spiritual practice, is all about developing self discipline. And while I would never tell someone that they should stay with something they hate no matter what. I do think if its too easy to give up, many will take that easy option.

My youngest son is 21 now, and since he left college he has started two different careers. Enginering and Catering. Both he's given up on before taking his exams. He also wanted to join the RAF and the bank. Neither of these he's been successful at joining so far. But you get the picture! Yes, he has picked up some skills along they way, but he stopped mid way in both of his early career choices and so has ended up not qualifying in either. He is doing a job that pays a good salary, but its factory work he's doing now. And while there is nothing wrong with that, potentially, he could have done so much more. I am sure he will eventually find what he is looking for, and for me as long as he is happy, I don't care what he does. But I can tell he isn't really happy, he is just treading water. I guess my fear is, that his giving up without seeing something through, will become a life long habit, and crossing over into his personal life too.

I did a two year secretarial/business studies course at college when I left school. There were many times when I felt like giving it up. But I did stick with it. Mainly because I knew my mum would have killed me if I hadn't lol But, in later life I'm so glad I didn't. The book-keeping and clerical skills I was able to use working from home when I had my babies. Bringing some much needed extra income. I did office work and hotel reception work. The latter, really brought out, and made use of my people skills. So when I decided to train as an advisor with the Citizens Advice Bureau later on, a charitable organization that helps and supports the vulnerable with anything from legal problems to assisting them with paper work connected to disability, mental health and consumer problems. The admin and working with people really helped me. I also trained with the Red Cross, again through my work with the CAB, doing therapeutic massage. At around the same time I did my Reiki Attunements. As I look back at my life, I can see now how each thing I did, later on helped me with something else. Our lives truly are made of many coloured threads; each one intersecting, weaving a beautiful pattern, that is our life.

So as Monty (Donq) has said, don't give up on your degree work just yet, unless you really hate it. Don't disregard out of hand anything as seeming at this point in your life to have no purpose. Trust me, there will be many things in life that you will find difficult and unpleasant to do, but sometimes have to be done. Teach yourself to be self disciplined from an early age, and this will stand you in good stead in the future. Don't be someone who avoids difficult situations, because you can. Make changing direction in life a personal choice once you've tied up any loose ends or resolved a problem and are then free to move on, not because your running away from it. Can you see how one thing can easily lead too another? Spirituality is about self growth through self understanding. Life is the best school for this that there can possibly be. Make use of all your experiences as a tool for growth. Because honestly, I think everything we do in this life does have a purpose, and that it is part of our destiny. You just can't see the whole picture yet.

Love and lightKaz

Really thankful for your reply.I could see myself in what you said.And I understand that most of the people choose the easier paths and want the biggest success but that's not always like that.In my case I would tell you a wasted life is a life when you don't smile, laugh and be happy in a day.Although you could have been doing something forcefully you did not like you did waste not beign happy at that time let's not disregard that for some would of worked but for others knowing how fragile life is couldn't of made it till the end.Yes everything has a purpose and me quitting isn't something bad, I don't want my parents or friends to see me as a failure or determine my worth by the pages I remembered, the calls I picked at work etc.I know I need to discipline myself and get my spirit to adapt instead of rebel.I guess that's my nature, question things.I really like the stories you have told me and they are very much right at least someday for something whatever you did no matter how meaningless was in the past could serve us a purpose.

Post by pami619 on Mar 27, 2017 16:26:40 GMT

There was a time when I didn't know how to say no (frankly speaking, I've still learning how to do so as I'm a very slow learner) and that was the reason why I could not say no to my parents (at least, they left me alone after I did that. ). But it turned out that, getting my degree did help me getting my job I liked later.I know that if you asked anyone in the system, you would get the same answer that Karen and I gave you: finish your university, finding a well-paid job, blah, blah, blah. Though our advices might not sound like spiritual ones at all, but, I believe, Karen and I talked from our direct experiences. And they really connected. Though it seems to have nothing to do with spirituality, but your degree will really help you to find the very job you like someday in the future, or at least help you along the way to find it. Also, kind of being safe than sorry. That's why even someone also have to study hard while they are working so that they can apply for the better jobs later. And yes, you can get some degree even you study at home (or evening classes, after work).I was thinking about some of my (spiritual) friends. They quit their (worldly) office job and bought some farms in upcountry, to grow chemical-free vegetables (pesticide residue free). They really meant well, but alas!, only after a years, they had to come back and started to find office jobs again. Why? Not to mention that they didn't really know how to farming, all their neighbor farms used pesticide and all insects around there came to scrum my friends' farms. Oops! sorry. Didn't mean to laugh. Bad me! I lost contact with them long time ago and didn't know if they could save enough money to go back to start their farms again or not. But it seemed like to be free spirits, really cost my friends more than other worldly persons. If only they could "live and let live".

Chuang Tzu told a story about this:

Taking a lot of trouble to unify thing s without knowing that things are in fact in uniformity is illustrated by the tale “three in the morning”. What is meant by "three in the morning"? Once upon a time, there was a monkey-keeper who fed the monkeys with acorns. When he said that he would give them three bushels of acorns in the morning and four bushels of acorns in the evening, all the monkeys were angry with his arrangement. However, when he said that he would give them four bushels of acorns in the morning and three bushels of acorns in the evening, all the monkeys were pleased with his arrangement. With the same number of acorns, there was an abrupt change of pleasure and anger because the keeper followed the natural bent of the monkeys. That is why the sage reconciles right and wrong, thus enjoying a peaceful and harmonious life. That is called the principle of ‘‘live and let live".

P.S. WWE wrestling? wow! Amazing! first I thought it was about numberology.

Thank you for another amazing reply and an another amazing quote, that really open my eyes.I know very well that you need this to live this way.I'm really happy to see people like your friends decided to live this lifestyle although at some point they were inexperienced but they learn.This is hardly seen but I didn't really get to understand why you told me that they later had to get back to their office jobs.I am not sure if I understood wrong but is living a more spiritual life risky, something different from what others do.And by spiritual I mean a life where you feel alive everyday and do what your heart desires as long as you have the way to do it.As another person pointed out here I do need a shift in perspective and that everything we do in the end has a purpose. Right now I have nothing else to do but to secure my future by what I am offered to do and put a certain amount of effort in it as long as I like it.At some point we need to force ourselves and grow from it because nothing will last forever.As for the Tzu quote I haven't stopped to think that when you're at peace with everything and are accepting of everything you're actually free.

Post by pami619 on Mar 27, 2017 16:40:11 GMT

I have always been of the opinion, that spirituality is concerned with the growth of spirit, and cares not, or may not even recognize the physical.There are laws in nature that must be followed, and mans circumstance creates the same unbreakable laws, so practicalities must be faced, the vast movement of labour throughout the E.U. has caused people without academic skills, few job opportunities and low pay.In simple black and white terms, in this day and age, no degree means very little job opportunity, and less chance of decent wages.Having said that there are those that make it, through writing or art, some with just a good idea that sells, but I imagine these are few and far between.In my experience spirituality will not make life easier, and any lofty ideas will be shattered by life eventually, but that does not mean you can not find your slot in life and be happy.I once watched a program, of a young man who was spiritually inclined, he wanted to live on his own, in the wild, away from people. This he did, in the wilderness, living out of an old derelict bus, with his books on how to survive.He looked like he was doing well and was very happy, one day he woke up with severe stomach cramps and vomiting, he staggered to reach his book on edible plants, and the realization that swept over his face, as he discovered he had eaten a poisonous mushroom, too weak to leave, he lay there. Someone found him months later,dead, not a pretty sight.There is nothing wrong with wanting to be free, but it does have its costs.

I see your point of view is a little bit different and a little skeptical from the rest.I got reminded of the many cases where people do this because they are afraid the would end up like someone homeless and that would hurt their pride etc.Is beign homeless really the worst thing that could happen to a person or the worst thing that can happen to a person is to become the greediest?I've seen people envy my friend being successful and hoping she would fail.I am not really a person that want to compete with anyone.Absolutely everything you said about our spiritual self that basically doesn't care about the physical is true.I think I am allowing myself to be controlled by it's desires and I am sort of in this kind of a battle between beign free and staying limited.I know following a spiritual path can have it's consequences but there is a way to balance those two out.Because in the grand scheme of things whatever we are doing really doesn't have to have a meaning.I feel right now is my time to build this life and later on I could be whatever I want to be.So as others said I need to be disciplined and preserve while not troubling myself over trivial things no matter how spiritually draining they can be to a person that is very in touch with their inner self.I can work these two out, for a reason I am alive.

Post by pami619 on Mar 27, 2017 17:00:52 GMT

I was just re reading your original post. I meant to say this to you before, and got distracted; that you are absolutely not, a loser. You are a sensitive and intelligent young lady, who wants her life to mean something. You are trying to live purposely as a spiritual being. But the truth is, you already are what you seek to be. Buddhist mindfulness teaches us that to live mindfully as a spiritual being, is to live completely in the present. Would you say honestly, that at this time, you are living in the present moment? Not looking back with regret, or forward in worry? Can you see where I'm going with this?

I'm trying to figure out, if your thinking your lack of interest with the academic courses you've been pursuing so far, are to do with the fact that you believe they wont enhance your spiritual life? Or is it just that you've realized that the things you've tried so far are uninteresting and boring, and not what you want to spend the rest of your life doing. If your intelligent enough to do a degree course it shows that you have the ability to try anything. I often wonder, if it is worse to have too many options to choose from, then not not enough lol You say you've been forced to rest a year. Can I ask what you've been doing in that year so far?

Love and lightKaz

I have so many things to say regarding your post.No I don't remember living fully in the present, I'm mostly worried about the future and the expectations of others, family and friends mainly because they don't understand me and there was a time they thought I need a psychological help thinking that me not knowing what I wanted from life aka what I was offered in life is not normal.I am still judged by it and they sort of put me in this spiral where there is no way out.Yes I am sensitive and my main priority is to find myself a corner to stick comfortably to.It's not exactly lack of interest that made me quit it was more of the "why" am I doing this, wait, why am I here now at this time? I felt I was straying away from my true self so I decided to quit and now I know I have to get back at it again because there's no way out.I guess my first judgment could of been wrong so I have no other option left.This year so far could make me seem like a purposless person because I didn't work or study anything but that's not true, I met new people, I learned new things, I enhanced my intuition, improved my confidence etc.It was a me year not an year expected from the the daily world.I still live with the pressure from my parents little or not that beign a 20 years old and not beign already where they want me to be is already too much for them and that my life is gone to waste for good.I feel I am rushed to finish everything although I require little to no support from them because I am an introverted person that barely goes out.I could be a worse daughter, headed the wrong way (drugs, alcohol abuse) but is me beign spiritually redirected a bad thing?Never in my life I thought I would change so much and start to think about me, what I want, what makes me happy until now.I suggest you read my previous answers to understand my plans for the future.Thank you for your time and attention.I really appreciate it.

Post by donq on Mar 28, 2017 6:05:40 GMT

Hi Pami,

I skipped some part on my prior posts because I didn't want to bore my friends here as I already told the part of my life many times here. Anyway, here it is (in a very short version):When I was twenty, I lived between my house in a big city and a forest (temple) because of my spriritual searching. I could do that because my university was the open university, so I could study at home except for some subjects. Anyway, that time I completely didn't care about my degree any more (but as I told you, I still got it anway).

Okay, now let's go back to what you said, "I'm really happy to see people like your friends decided to live this lifestyle although at some point they were inexperienced but they learn.This is hardly seen but I didn't really get to understand why you told me that they later had to get back to their office jobs."Because I used to live in a very barren area and knowing many villagers really there. I had seen their real lives. My friends knew nothing about the real life situations. Yes, they were (spiritual) happy for what they chose to do. But in reality, nothing was as it seemed. Always. Though spiritual practice did hep them, more or less, handling those tough situaitons rather well, but making money still a must for their livings. And I wonder, why they had to look for troubles when troubles always (already) find us no matter what we chose to do. And when my freinds did what they didn't know how to do, on the other hand, they were not ready to do so, (they didn't preapre enough for the room of their failures), they had to come back to something they already had walked away. They had to. No other way out. My question is, why didn't they choose to do something they like AND they could do it well, or at least, being ready for any failure in the first place?To be fair, yes, I also made some (in fact, many) similar mistakes but I was lucky that somehow I didn't have to go back to what I already walked away.I had some friends (I also used to be like them) who so seriously attached to non-attachment. I meant, they always rejected this and that beforehand, even they had no experience about it at all. They did that just to show that they were special. If a cool artist has to have a long hair, so, a short hair artist never painted his masterpiece? I didn't mean about something so obvious either. We don't need to let a snake bite us before we could learn from that experience and getting our detachment from it. But spritual non-attahcment is a result of a very long time practice, not something pretending in between.

You said, "when you're at peace with everything and are accepting of everything you're actually free." Yes, great! You put it so well. The point is though everyone seems to know that but to get that state of mind, a complete freedom, is another story. We have a lot of work to do. Again, it's only a result of very long time spiritual practicing.In reality, there are no "this" vs "that" as they are so connected. There are no real worldly job vs spritual job. For exmaple, the parents who do any toughest jobs for their kids, get spiritual states of mind even better than someone who always do something for themselves. Because the first ones are about helping others, while the latter, being selfish.

The above was the fact (of my life), as I've already been there and done that. But the following will be...urh...pure fiction. Repeat...fiction. The words between parentheses are just my thinking and she won't know that.

I was twenty, and Karen used her time machine going back to meet me.

Karen, "You are absolutely not a loser. You are a sensitive and intelligent young man, who wants his life to mean something. You are trying to live purposely as a spiritual being."DonQ,"Thanks. (Yes, yes, that was really me. Compliments really make me feel so good. Don't know why. But...no 'but' please, no but...please)Karen, "But..."DonQ (See? See? I knew it! I knew it!)Karen, "Would you say honestly, that at this time, you are living in the present moment? Not looking back with regret, or forward in worry? Can you see where I'm going with this?"DonQ (Yes, I'm living in the present moment. But you are not. You are from my future. Where are you going with this? Back to my future or back to your present. ) [note-Sure, I only secretly laughed in my mind and my mind only.]Karen, "I'm trying to figure out, if your thinking your lack of interest with the academic courses you've been pursuing so far, are to do with the fact that you believe they wont enhance your spiritual life? Or is it just that you've realized that the things you've tried so far are uninteresting and boring, and not what you want to spend the rest of your life doing."DonQ, "My answer would be both: they won't enhance my spiritual life and I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing it. And even worse than that, when I started studying law, I used to believe that it would lead me to do something good for my society, to right the wrong things. But one day I realized that it was not true. We are living in the very corrupt societies. You could even buy a judge to win your case! How could I fight those windmills with my only one lance? Even the real Don Quijote could not do that either"Karen, "If your intelligent enough to do a degree course it shows that you have the ability to try anything. I often wonder, if it is worse to have too many options to choose from, then not not enough lol You say you've been forced to rest a year. Can I ask what you've been doing in that year so far?DonQ, (Was that a reverse psychology?)

..........................

Okay let's come back to reality, a non-fiction here. Let me ask you this question, how Karen, one of my dear friends here, could do what she has been doing here for almost 10 years? Not to mention she has kids. If she put those time and effort to do something else, sure, she would make more money for supporting her family much more. As this is a spiritual forum, we all knew why Karen did that but how could she did that? Because she had prepared herself, by doing so many jobs, before she was ready enough. I believe that was Karen and I were trying to tell you. Life is a b i t c h. Be prepare for everything. Because of my proud, there were some times when I didn't prepare enough. I never thought I had to go to a pawnshop, borrowing my friend's money, or finding a loan. But at some point of my life, I painfully did that, for my family. Though it was true that I could live in the forest temple (my friend has been an abbot there for many years) without any money at all (even didn't need to be a monk) but I chose to live in the city for some reasons (it's a long story, let's skip it here). Whatever you would choose to do, I and Karen (I believe I can speak for her on this) will respect that. We just shared our real life experiences so that you might consider it, to have much more choice, and be more prepare. A teenager drove his car without his hands touching its wheel. Was that cool? Was he a good driver? I don't think so. No matter how good you are at driving, putting your both hands on its wheel still the best and safest way to drive. Not to mention the whole readiness/awareness of your mind and body. Accident's always waiting for us at the next corner: the very moment we are heedless and careless. Please be prepare.

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 28, 2017 12:26:25 GMT

Hi Pami and Monty,

Great replies from both of you, I really like these types of discussions, because I think it highlights a lot of the issues and beliefs we all have about spirituality. I can see looking back now, how my own thoughts about it have changed a lot over the years. I think one of the most important realizations I have made, is there there is no right or wrong way. We are all different, and our spiritual life will evolve in a way that is tailored to our own individual culture, lifestyle and temperament.

When you strip it all down, it is not about how much we meditate, fast or deprive ourselves of certain things, or not i.e. meat, materialistic assets or or not care about the opinions of others or social status. Ultimately, its about kindness and love. Caring about others. And for me personally, if you remove yourself from the world, or taking yourself out of it, you deprive yourself of the opportunity to practice loving kindness within your relationships and daily interaction with your fellow man. And if you think there is no ego within spirituality, you would be wrong. Even if it is only the attitude you will come across where one person believes they are more spiritual then someone else. A kind of spiritual oneupmanship. And who is to say that one is more spiritual than another because they live their lives differently.

There is no doubt, that there are some wonderful people in the world, who give up their own chance to have a family and live a normal life, to devote their lives to helping others. Look at the likes of Mother Teresa who ministered to the poor in Calcutta. But in many homes in the world over, ordinary men and woman make tremendous sacrifices to take care of not only their own families, but others within their circle. Many do ordinary jobs, but use their spare time as volunteers in humanitarian pursuits.

Loving others, showing compassion, being of service, can be done anytime, anywhere. You can do it cleaning toilets, directing traffic just as well as being a lawyer or a teacher. What would you like to do with your life Pami. What would you like to be, so that you can use it as a vehicle that will allow you to do or be more of what you want to be? If I could go back and start again, I would love to have been a primary school teacher. Its a paradox really, because I'd never have considered that when I was your age. So I do not regret my life, because it has taught me what is really important to me and what isn't. I've met some wonderful people, and learnt so much. But most of all I've learnt about myself.

For me personally, that is what 'being spiritually awake' is all about. Self understanding and realization. Understanding others better. Every day I open my eyes, I appreciate the world around me more. I also see its fragility and how vulnerable everyone is. And that just opens my heart more. I fill up with unconditional love. To me that is being spiritual. I would say to you, it doesn't matter what you do. Just do not do it not for anyone else's sake, but your own. Because that way lies resentment and anger. Instead treat everything you do as a privilege, and you will do it well.

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by donq on Mar 29, 2017 4:37:40 GMT

Hi Pami and Karen,

Leonard Cohen, one of my favorite singers, wrote the following song when he was ordained a Zen monk. This song is very interesting because it said something about the "nameless" and the "name" which is in some important Buddhist sutras.The word "love" in the song could also mean many things.

"Love Itself"

The light came through the window,Straight from the sun above,And so inside my little roomThere plunged the rays of Love.

In streams of light I clearly sawThe dust you seldom see,Out of which the Nameless makesA Name for one like me.

I’ll try to say a little more:Love went on and onUntil it reached an open door –Then Love ItselfLove Itself was gone.

All busy in the sunlightThe flecks did float and dance,And I was tumbled up with themIn formless circumstance.

I’ll try to say a little more:Love went on and onUntil it reached an open door –Then Love ItselfLove Itself was gone.

Then I came back from where I’d been.My room, it looked the same –But there was nothing left betweenThe Nameless and the Name.

All busy in the sunlightThe flecks did float and dance,And I was tumbled up with themIn formless circumstance.

I’ll try to say a little more:Love went on and onUntil it reached an open door –Then Love itself,Love Itself was gone.Love Itself was gone.

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by mojomojo on Mar 29, 2017 9:51:11 GMT

I apologize first before I write these few lines, as they very well may infringe upon the thoughts, beliefs of others.The more I reflect on my past experiences and read the discussions here, the more disillusioned I become with the whole spiritual thing.While everyone has the right to live their own life in whatever way they wish, and I`am not trying to interfere with anyone`s rights, I can only give my opinion.From my experience, deciding what to do with ones life at an early age, can be a hard ask, personally I never knew what I wanted to be, but that does not change the fact that you must do something, if boiled down to essentials, and you had to pay your own way, what choice would you have. Pami, you asked if to be homeless, would be the worst thing, or to be the greediest, close your eyes for one minute, imagine you where in a situation where all relations and friends could not reach out to you, there was no help.Imagine you are soaking wet and freezing, you haven`t eaten all day, night time is coming, its getting colder by the minute and you have no where to go, and this you go through day in, day out.For some people things just seem to fall in place, I`m not one of them, in this day and age, you have to stand up and go for what you want and yes there may be a little bit of greed involved, it does not mean you must take it to extremes.From my experience, spirituality will not fix the practicalities of life, putting all your effort into spirituality, means you neglect the other, while we can afford to do these things at an early age, there is a time limit, ageism does exist and the clock ticks for everyone.There are far too many misconceptions about spirituality, leading people to lofty ideals, and that is all they are.

There may be many very good people in this world, but the media can give us a distorted view at times, again I may be about to upset some people.For every story portrayed there is always the other side and which one you believe is up to you, but it does mean some people are in denial.Mother Tersea was proclaimed a saint by the very institution, whose coffers were fed by the vast donations her charity received, very little of the money went into the care of the people, who practically lay on the floor, dying, with constantly re-used blunt needles and nuns with just basic medical training, who were not qualified to tell if someone was curable or incurable. The philosophy of the place was you are suffering for Jesus, it was good to suffer for the soul.Her often used phrase for suffering was, "Jesus is kissing you", to which her dying patient replied, "Tell Jesus to stop kissing me."Maybe, Mother Tersea really believed in suffering for Jesus and when her time came lay down beside the rest and suffered with them.No, that did not happen, Mother Tersea went to the finest medical institutes to have cataract surgery, a pacemaker fitted and to spend her final days, an extreme case of do as I say, and not as I do.As I said believe what you want, but the facts sit there for everyone to see.

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 29, 2017 10:54:58 GMT

I never knew that Leonard Cohen was a ordained Zen Monk. I thought the words to the song were really beautiful. The verse that really stuck me as being meaningful and poignant was

"Then I came back from where I’d been.My room, it looked the same –But there was nothing left betweenThe Nameless and the Name."

The symbolism I see in this, is that 'my room' is me, and the analogy of 'then I cam back from where I'd been'. Is the distance we travel, the space in between, from where we were, and who we were, to where we are and who we are now. As in that quote by Nelson Mandela who said " There is nothing like returning to a place that remains unchanged to see the ways that you yourself have changed". 'But there was nothing left between The Nameless and the Name.' This to me speaks of coming to understand that there is no distance between ourselves and God (Christ consciousness, Divine Intelligence),save for the mistaken belief that we hold, that we are separate or apart from him. A merging, there is no I, or you, because we are the same.

That is what it says to me. I believe symbolism about something speaks to us in a way that resonates with where we are at in this moment, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. What does the song mean to you Monty?

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 29, 2017 13:04:31 GMT

Hi Robert,

Your words could never infringe on the personal beliefs and ideals of others, because your thoughts, ideas and beliefs are every bit as important and valid. I very much hear and empathize with how you feel Robert. Fundimentally, I have also found that the more aware I become, the more I see the inequality, harshness and cruelty of the world we live in. I do not believe being spiritually aware removes us from the world, where we exist in some kind of rarified bubble of delusion. Where everything is all love and light. Quite the opposite. Not, untouched by the suffering of others, and removed from suffering ourselves. If anything, I think for some, it makes it more apparent and amplified. Its very hard.

I remember you once saying in a previous post of yours, that trying to be spiritual in this world, is trying to play the game of life by rules that no one else recognizes or abides by. Which makes us vulnerable and weak. How those qualities we try to embody, are often used against us. The metaphorical stick, used to beat us over the head. I can totally resonate with those sentiments. So what do we do. Play the game by the rules of a society that we both agree I think, is pretty sick. Or try to live by our moral standards and spiritual ethos. And associate accordingly with people who embody the same qualities. And by that I mean anyone, not just those who say they are 'spiritual'. Because all spiritual is to my mind, is a label that we've attached to compassionate, loving and emotionally intelligent people. Who are also have a humanitarian conscience. I also do not see being spiritual as being weak, if anything for some it will give them an inner strength. Where they can choose how to react to any given situation. Applying whatever degree of strength that they feel it requires. Be that walking away or standing strong and asserting themselves.

I agree totally, with what you have said about the harsh reality of homelessness. I felt you put your point across in a most heartfelt and eloquent way. It is a desperately sad and degrading way to have to live. No one should not have a roof over their head in this day and age. I am ashamed that nothing has been done to remedy this. I pray that one day soon no one should ever have to live this way. I am sure if Pami thinks again about what she has said in respect of this, that she will see that she has spoken thoughtlessly about something she has no true understanding of.

You said "From my experience, spirituality will not fix the practicalities of life, putting all your effort into spirituality, means you neglect the other, while we can afford to do these things at an early age, there is a time limit, ageism does exist and the clock ticks for everyone. There are far too many misconceptions about spirituality, leading people to lofty ideals, and that is all they are." I think the mistake here is when people see spirituality as separate from normal life. When in truth it permeates every aspect of it. Spirituality is supposed to enhance our understanding, and give us the tools to deal with life better. At least this is how I see it. There is a danger in the thinking that you refer to. Many have given up everything, family, friends and jobs to focus all their energy and time on spiritual practice. Callously dropping people from their circle who did not believe as they do. Hurting those who love them. Justifying what they do by thinking they can do as they please, as long as they can attach it to the belief that it is for their 'highest good' or from a 'higher philosophical perspective'. There is nothing that can justify selfishness and cruelty. I believe it is the very antithesis of being spiritual.

You are right there is a lot of misconception and ignorance. And human nature being what it is, you will always get those who will justify their actions by tailoring their spiritual beliefs to justify this behaviour. That isn't spiritual. Its so complex Robert isn't it. At the end of the day, we are not responsible for other people's behaviour, only our own. The world will continue as it always has. I doubt we will ever see a utopian humanitarian world. Maybe our dsecendants will, but not I think before they have been taught some harsh lessons. Lets hope that they don't destroy themselves and the world in the process. For now, we must all forge our own paths. With each other for support and companionship along the way.

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by donq on Mar 29, 2017 13:21:55 GMT

Hi Karen,

You explained it so well. Two thumbs up!

You asked what the song means to me, here's my answer.

In one interpretation, it could mean about romantic love: Love went on and on, until it reached an open door, then love itself, love itself was goneAnyone who got a broken heart might feel that the song spoke of their hearts. (Believe me, I was also one of them as I divorced twice. ). And any couples might ask this very same question: after some years of their love lives, where is the thrill of earlier love gone?

In another interpretation, it seemed everything I got (money, fame, objects etc.) lost its thrill to me, why? When I haven't got something, I wanted it so bad. But after I got it, it always lost its value to me, why? Is it because I've changed? Or because there's no real value in it in the first place? Or both? As my spiritual background was Buddhism, here comes an emptiness. In the final analysis, everything is really empty. I used to cry like that preacher in Ecclesiastes:

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.(-King James Version)

And as you put it so well, "there is no distance between ourselves and God (Christ consciousness, Divine Intelligence)", there's no so distance between me and emptiness or me and enlightenment etc. It's there. Always be there. Sure, somehow there's always a gap between them that I've been trying to narrow it. But the moment I've shortened it, I lost it. Why?Back to the topic of this thread, I started from separate worldly world from spiritual world. Somehow it was a must for beginning, for getting a solid foundation first. Then, at some point I saw their connections. In the final analysis, I could not separate them. No one could. They are always connected, connected. So, this line describes its so well:

"Then I came back from where I’d been, my room, it looked the same–but there was nothing left between the Nameless and the Name"

In Buddhism, we investigate the truth of Absolute truth (Nameless) and Conventional truth (name). We name this and that, (this is I, me, mind etc. That is my car, my job, my family etc.). A spiritual novice might always try to reject the Conventional truth, until it goes too far, to the extreme (this is not me, not my body etc.). Hence, he even tried to mortify his body for spiritual purification. Then, the Buddha taught about the middle between two extremes.There was a time when I went too far and really didn't care about my body. Once I came back from my forest and I took a bus in my city, the bus's ticket collector didn't dare to collect my fare. I really scared him.

P.S. Haven't read another post of yours yet. Maybe tomorrow.

"What pattern connects the crab to the lobster and the orchid to the primrose and all the four of them to me? And me to you?" - Gregory Bateson (from “Mind and Nature”)

Post by mojomojo on Mar 29, 2017 15:32:45 GMT

I have to applaud you Karen, that was one of the best posts I have read in my time here and written with excellence, I agree with everything you have said and can add nothing, and as Donq has stated the middle path seems the way.

Post by sparklekaz on Mar 29, 2017 19:14:35 GMT

Thank you Robert.. your kind words are much appreciated.

Love and lightKaz

Always live with an open heart. This means being available to both the outer and the inner worlds. The openness of the heart is nothing else but the vastness of pure awareness, the eternity of the present moment. Sahajananda

Post by pami619 on Mar 29, 2017 19:21:54 GMT

I skipped some part on my prior posts because I didn't want to bore my friends here as I already told the part of my life many times here. Anyway, here it is (in a very short version):When I was twenty, I lived between my house in a big city and a forest (temple) because of my spriritual searching. I could do that because my university was the open university, so I could study at home except for some subjects. Anyway, that time I completely didn't care about my degree any more (but as I told you, I still got it anway).

Okay, now let's go back to what you said, "I'm really happy to see people like your friends decided to live this lifestyle although at some point they were inexperienced but they learn.This is hardly seen but I didn't really get to understand why you told me that they later had to get back to their office jobs."Because I used to live in a very barren area and knowing many villagers really there. I had seen their real lives. My friends knew nothing about the real life situations. Yes, they were (spiritual) happy for what they chose to do. But in reality, nothing was as it seemed. Always. Though spiritual practice did hep them, more or less, handling those tough situaitons rather well, but making money still a must for their livings. And I wonder, why they had to look for troubles when troubles always (already) find us no matter what we chose to do. And when my freinds did what they didn't know how to do, on the other hand, they were not ready to do so, (they didn't preapre enough for the room of their failures), they had to come back to something they already had walked away. They had to. No other way out. My question is, why didn't they choose to do something they like AND they could do it well, or at least, being ready for any failure in the first place?To be fair, yes, I also made some (in fact, many) similar mistakes but I was lucky that somehow I didn't have to go back to what I already walked away.I had some friends (I also used to be like them) who so seriously attached to non-attachment. I meant, they always rejected this and that beforehand, even they had no experience about it at all. They did that just to show that they were special. If a cool artist has to have a long hair, so, a short hair artist never painted his masterpiece? I didn't mean about something so obvious either. We don't need to let a snake bite us before we could learn from that experience and getting our detachment from it. But spritual non-attahcment is a result of a very long time practice, not something pretending in between.

You said, "when you're at peace with everything and are accepting of everything you're actually free." Yes, great! You put it so well. The point is though everyone seems to know that but to get that state of mind, a complete freedom, is another story. We have a lot of work to do. Again, it's only a result of very long time spiritual practicing.In reality, there are no "this" vs "that" as they are so connected. There are no real worldly job vs spritual job. For exmaple, the parents who do any toughest jobs for their kids, get spiritual states of mind even better than someone who always do something for themselves. Because the first ones are about helping others, while the latter, being selfish.

The above was the fact (of my life), as I've already been there and done that. But the following will be...urh...pure fiction. Repeat...fiction. The words between parentheses are just my thinking and she won't know that.

I was twenty, and Karen used her time machine going back to meet me.

Karen, "You are absolutely not a loser. You are a sensitive and intelligent young man, who wants his life to mean something. You are trying to live purposely as a spiritual being."DonQ,"Thanks. (Yes, yes, that was really me. Compliments really make me feel so good. Don't know why. But...no 'but' please, no but...please)Karen, "But..."DonQ (See? See? I knew it! I knew it!)Karen, "Would you say honestly, that at this time, you are living in the present moment? Not looking back with regret, or forward in worry? Can you see where I'm going with this?"DonQ (Yes, I'm living in the present moment. But you are not. You are from my future. Where are you going with this? Back to my future or back to your present. ) [note-Sure, I only secretly laughed in my mind and my mind only.]Karen, "I'm trying to figure out, if your thinking your lack of interest with the academic courses you've been pursuing so far, are to do with the fact that you believe they wont enhance your spiritual life? Or is it just that you've realized that the things you've tried so far are uninteresting and boring, and not what you want to spend the rest of your life doing."DonQ, "My answer would be both: they won't enhance my spiritual life and I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing it. And even worse than that, when I started studying law, I used to believe that it would lead me to do something good for my society, to right the wrong things. But one day I realized that it was not true. We are living in the very corrupt societies. You could even buy a judge to win your case! How could I fight those windmills with my only one lance? Even the real Don Quijote could not do that either"Karen, "If your intelligent enough to do a degree course it shows that you have the ability to try anything. I often wonder, if it is worse to have too many options to choose from, then not not enough lol You say you've been forced to rest a year. Can I ask what you've been doing in that year so far?DonQ, (Was that a reverse psychology?)

..........................

Okay let's come back to reality, a non-fiction here. Let me ask you this question, how Karen, one of my dear friends here, could do what she has been doing here for almost 10 years? Not to mention she has kids. If she put those time and effort to do something else, sure, she would make more money for supporting her family much more. As this is a spiritual forum, we all knew why Karen did that but how could she did that? Because she had prepared herself, by doing so many jobs, before she was ready enough. I believe that was Karen and I were trying to tell you. Life is a b i t c h. Be prepare for everything. Because of my proud, there were some times when I didn't prepare enough. I never thought I had to go to a pawnshop, borrowing my friend's money, or finding a loan. But at some point of my life, I painfully did that, for my family. Though it was true that I could live in the forest temple (my friend has been an abbot there for many years) without any money at all (even didn't need to be a monk) but I chose to live in the city for some reasons (it's a long story, let's skip it here). Whatever you would choose to do, I and Karen (I believe I can speak for her on this) will respect that. We just shared our real life experiences so that you might consider it, to have much more choice, and be more prepare. A teenager drove his car without his hands touching its wheel. Was that cool? Was he a good driver? I don't think so. No matter how good you are at driving, putting your both hands on its wheel still the best and safest way to drive. Not to mention the whole readiness/awareness of your mind and body. Accident's always waiting for us at the next corner: the very moment we are heedless and careless. Please be prepare.

Incredibly thank you for this detailed response.Reading what you said made me feel stupid as if I am a little clapping monkey with two cymbals but in a good way.I now realize how inexperienced I am by thinking that I know everything and need no further to understand things in life.I'm glad I can resonate with so many people.We are living in a world where money and spirituality can go hand in hand by the end of the day because one lives in the form of survival the other in the form of teaching and experience.Truthfully leading a complete spiritual life and not beign filthy rich wouldn't work very well.Interestingly enough the richest people tend to lead the less spiritual lives than the rest of us.Why because I came to understand that we are always one and we are here to shape our inner selves or just maybe it doesn't have to have any meaning.And once we do, we come back to our natural form which is death.Survival is the answer to all of our questions because we were made this way and everything we say has to make sense to us to not feel suicidal because life itself is meaningless.Realizing that I am the one giving it meaning saved me from many negative thoughts and behaviors but then I bumped into spirituality and it made me angry with the world.I really have nothing else to say, to be honest you and others could have already changed my life already and I don't know it yet. I'm very thankful for that.I also see that Karen is very well known here, she's an exceptional person which makes me admire her, she can outsmart you and show you the right path while not beign judgemental.

Thank you again, I have a few more answers from you guys to read and reply to.Gladly I can always come back and read all of your responses to make me feel good and not alone.

Post by pami619 on Mar 29, 2017 19:41:32 GMT

Great replies from both of you, I really like these types of discussions, because I think it highlights a lot of the issues and beliefs we all have about spirituality. I can see looking back now, how my own thoughts about it have changed a lot over the years. I think one of the most important realizations I have made, is there there is no right or wrong way. We are all different, and our spiritual life will evolve in a way that is tailored to our own individual culture, lifestyle and temperament.

When you strip it all down, it is not about how much we meditate, fast or deprive ourselves of certain things, or not i.e. meat, materialistic assets or or not care about the opinions of others or social status. Ultimately, its about kindness and love. Caring about others. And for me personally, if you remove yourself from the world, or taking yourself out of it, you deprive yourself of the opportunity to practice loving kindness within your relationships and daily interaction with your fellow man. And if you think there is no ego within spirituality, you would be wrong. Even if it is only the attitude you will come across where one person believes they are more spiritual then someone else. A kind of spiritual oneupmanship. And who is to say that one is more spiritual than another because they live their lives differently.

There is no doubt, that there are some wonderful people in the world, who give up their own chance to have a family and live a normal life, to devote their lives to helping others. Look at the likes of Mother Teresa who ministered to the poor in Calcutta. But in many homes in the world over, ordinary men and woman make tremendous sacrifices to take care of not only their own families, but others within their circle. Many do ordinary jobs, but use their spare time as volunteers in humanitarian pursuits.

Loving others, showing compassion, being of service, can be done anytime, anywhere. You can do it cleaning toilets, directing traffic just as well as being a lawyer or a teacher. What would you like to do with your life Pami. What would you like to be, so that you can use it as a vehicle that will allow you to do or be more of what you want to be? If I could go back and start again, I would love to have been a primary school teacher. Its a paradox really, because I'd never have considered that when I was your age. So I do not regret my life, because it has taught me what is really important to me and what isn't. I've met some wonderful people, and learnt so much. But most of all I've learnt about myself.

For me personally, that is what 'being spiritually awake' is all about. Self understanding and realization. Understanding others better. Every day I open my eyes, I appreciate the world around me more. I also see its fragility and how vulnerable everyone is. And that just opens my heart more. I fill up with unconditional love. To me that is being spiritual. I would say to you, it doesn't matter what you do. Just do not do it not for anyone else's sake, but your own. Because that way lies resentment and anger. Instead treat everything you do as a privilege, and you will do it well.

Love and lightKaz

Thank you Karen.I agree with everything you said, spirituality isn't a lifestyle, it is a life.People who understand it are the ones that have learned from their lessons, the ones who didn't, hold grudges and aren't free souls.It's true, you pointed out to me indirectly I now remember, I did judge close people who didn't grasp the idea of spirituality as inferior or ignorants but in reality I don't know exactly what and how they learn from life, what thoughts, what beliefs they have to get through difficulties or simply to battle the ego, whatever they do I am sure even if they aren't aware of spirituality that they are living a part of it.I see you live your life by showing kindness, beign accepting of people etc.We need more people like that.I still battle with ego everyday to cover up my vulnerabilities as if I am afraid to open my heart to people whether they be racist, sexist, corrupt or fake.I don't hate them for them, I despair them for their thinking and I believe that some can change that.Over the years I learned to understand different people and be more accepting of them whether they be in my case, homosexuals, transsexuals, AfricanAmericans, Muslims and Asians.Yes I didn't like Asians but years later I am in love with their culture, I love their production and food.I find transsexuals, homosexuals as cool people because they are super creative and have strong personalities.My best friend is a Muslim and many others I know are and are the sweetest people.I love blacks music, I love their humor, I've grown listening to their music and admire them for their talents.I also didn't fancy British people because I thought they were full of themselves but life bumped me into one I fell madly in love with.Thank you for the incredible advise otherwise I can't imagine living alone to be honest, helping someone from heart was the biggest gift I could ever receive.And what I would like to become, I don't know but something regarding the usage of English is something I have always found more appealing than the rest.I have always built strong connections with my English teachers over the years and they have always supported me to go after this carrier.