It isn’t MUSLIMS who are pushing the anti-gay death penalty law in Uganda. It’s Church of England, Catholic (YES, CATHOLIC) Bishops and evangelicals who are being supported and encouraged by AMERICAN Christians.

The guilt of the Christian churches you name is quite apparent, but let’s not whitewash, gloss over or ignore the equally reprehensible actions of Ugandan Muslim religious leaders in this mess. Besides, don’t forget that Muslims make up about 12% of the population of that country.

Oh, and I’ll give you one more breath. I don’t want to live in a country where ANY religion dominates. I want to live in a country where the CONSTITUTION, reason, justice, fairness and equality dominate.” – TampaZeke

As Jim said I made some sweeping statements and those sweeping statements have been found wrong. You have found some Muslim Mosques that say they support gay rights. And, Jim has pointed out what is going on in Muslim Albania. I too want to live in a country where a constitution, reason, justice, fairness and equality dominate. But, what I see going on in the Muslim world by far not that kind of country. Currently most are run by dictatorships. And, wave of Muslim fundamentalism is on the rise in the Muslim world and has been, ever since the Iranian Revolution in 1979. On the whole he plight of gay rights in Muslim countries is dismal. My link to Wikipedia stated the fact that homosexual acts in some Muslim nations were punishable by the death sentence. Let’s all hope that the liberal forces of Islam will win out over the fundamentalist forces. But, I don’t think that will happen in my lifetime or anytime in this century.

]]>By: Charleshttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/06/19/45871/comment-page-1#comment-127734
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:08:29 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45871#comment-127734“So, on the whole in my opinion christianity did more to support slavery than to oppose it and Charles’ claim that Christianity was the central driving force for abolitionism and the civil rights movement is wrong on every level.” – Priya Lynn June 23rd, 2012

I said no such thing, you have me confused with Muscat who wrote on June 20th: ” @Ben in Oakland

Cute, but a bit of an oversimplification, since Christianity was also the central driving force for abolitionism and the civil rights movement.”

What I mean is that at some point in some places slavery had a presumption of acceptability and so yes, then and there more Christians supported slavery. Today virtually none do. At points between, the numbers changed.”.

Its just “Yes”. I never said anything about today, I was talking strictly about back then.

Timothy said ” I think that he was trying to say (before he jumped off the cliff about Muslims) that while virtually all of the people involved in promoting or opposing slavery were Christians, the influence that led from point A to point B was Christian preaching and zeal…In other words, Christianity was a positive influence in motivating change.”.

Yes and no.

Yes christians were a positive influence in motivating change, but they were also a negative influence in opposing change. I maintain there were more christians in opposition to change than there were supporting change but if you have something beyond your opinion on the truth of that I’ll consider it.

As I said earlier I have no opinion on what motivated christians opposing slavery, it may be christianity, or as occurred to me after you brought it up, just the same sense of fair play that leads me to oppose slavery. You’ll probably claim their sense of fair play was from their christianity but I think that’sdebatable, It may be that a sense of fair play is inherent in most people and people probably assign to christianity values they had before they were really indoctrinated into it.

What I do know for sure is that christianity was used to justify slavery and there was a LOT of ammunition in the bible to support that viewpoint.

So, on the whole in my opinion christianity did more to support slavery than to oppose it and Charles’ claim that Christianity was the central driving force for abolitionism and the civil rights movement is wrong on every level.

I’m not going to argue with you any more about this so you can have the last word.

What I’m saying is that I believe there were likely more christians in favour of slavery at the time than opposed. I don’t have any detailed knowledge of the history so, of course I could be wrong, but based on what I do know that’s what appears to be the case to me.

Yes and no.

What I mean is that at some point in some places slavery had a presumption of acceptability and so yes, then and there more Christians supported slavery. Today virtually none do. At points between, the numbers changed.

But I don’t think that Charles was trying to make a point about numbers. I think that he was trying to say (before he jumped off the cliff about Muslims) that while virtually all of the people involved in promoting or opposing slavery were Christians, the influence that led from point A to point B was Christian preaching and zeal.

It need not have been Christian. It could have been Taoist or based in Reason. But in the US and English Abolitionist movement it happened to be Christian and it happened to be driven by values that (while shared by other faiths or belief systems) were experienced as “Christian” by those involved.

In other words, Christianity was a positive influence in motivating change. While it was used as an excuse by those who favored slavery, they had very strong economic motivations pushing them to keep things the same.

But those seeking change did so “because it was right” and they believed it was right to change because of their Christian beliefs (which were, of course, different from slave-holders’ Christian beliefs).

An awful lot of people died because they strongly opposed slavery. My great-great-grandfather was among them.

Equality is different in that the earlier pro-gay social pressures came from outside of religion and most often were opposed most strongly because of religion. Often it has been opposition to religion that has encouraged questioning inequality. (In other words, anti-Christianity has been a positive motivation.)

But that is shifting. Right now, Religion is weighing in HEAVILY on both sides. We now have allies who support us because of their faiths (and not just Christians). Ultimately, I am guessing that in parts of the country it will be pro-gay religious zeal that will be necessary for us to be ultimately fully included.

Oh, and I’ll give you one more breath. I don’t want to live in a country where ANY religion dominates. I want to live in a country where the CONSTITUTION, reason, justice, fairness and equality dominate.

]]>By: TampaZekehttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/06/19/45871/comment-page-1#comment-127621
Sat, 23 Jun 2012 01:02:00 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45871#comment-127621Way to move the goal post Charles. You challenged you to give you “A MOSQUE…”. I gave you TWO examples within five miles of me and then you scoff and claim that two examples are insufficient.

I won’t waste any more breath on you. You seem quite contented in your ignorance.

You do realize that Albania is a majority Muslim nation, right? It has recently passed legislation to provide non-discrimination protections for gay and transgender people. Its Prime Minister came out in support of same-sex marriage in 2009, although its Parliament has not approved the measure. This year the Prime Minister welcomed Albania’s first gay pride celebration after denouncing a defense minister’s anti-gay tirade.

Albania is 70% Muslim. I would call that “dominated” by any measure.

I know you hate it when you make sweeping statements and people call you on it with, you know, facts. The best way to avoid that from happening in the future is to avoid making sweeping statements.

]]>By: Charleshttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/06/19/45871/comment-page-1#comment-127610
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:54:26 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45871#comment-127610TampaZeke, Great you found a mosque and that even CAIR supported gay rights in one instance. I personally have little respect of CAIR. As for some crazy lone Christian burning the Koran and hanging Obama in effigy. I seem to remember that the hanging of Bush was a common event during his administration among certain groups and him being compared to as a chimpanzee was and still is common. The following is a site where you can still buy such a poster: http://www.zazzle.com/bush_or_chimp_poster-228527593129259283 …………..try doing that with Obama and you are called a racist and or bigot. The following is directly from Wikipedia:

“Homosexual activity is a crime and forbidden in most Muslim-majority countries. In the Islamic regimes of Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, North Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity is punished with the death penalty. In Nigeria and Somalia the death penalty is issued in some regions.[2] The legal punishment for sodomy has varied among juristic schools: some prescribe capital punishment; while other prescribe a milder discretionary punishment such as imprisonment. In some relatively secular Muslim-majority countries such as Indonesia,[3] Jordan and Turkey this is not the case; and there are no specific civil laws against homosexual practice.”

You are welcome to burn a Bible in the United States anytime you wish. Just don’t try to do it in Afghanistan, you may end up being truly lynched or starting a riot.

Christianity is certainly not perfect, but I would rather live in a country that is dominated by Christians than Muslims.

]]>By: TampaZekehttp://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/06/19/45871/comment-page-1#comment-127576
Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:40:48 +0000http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45871#comment-127576Charles, Every story I’ve read about the crack down on gay demonstrations in Russia points to the deep involvement of the Russian Orthodox Church. Where do you get your news?

“Show me a gay rights Muslim Mosque that supports gay rights…”

The Islamic Community of Tampa Mosque in Temple Terrace Florida and CAIR (Council on American/Islamic Relations) of Florida BOTH took a position AGAINST Amendment 2 (the anti-gay marriage amendment) in Florida in 2008.

“…and let me know if they are not living in some fear of their lives from fundamentalist Muslim fanatics.”

NO, they’re not.

Just because you are unaware of facts doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Yet, just up the street in Gainsville a Christian church burns Qur’ans and LYNCHES President Obama in effigy holding a rainbow flag.