It's odd how a country that is supposed to have separation of church and state in its very founding document has so many extremists in it. The Westboro Baptist Church crowd, the people responsible for the death of George Tiller, the list goes on. I realize that not all xtians are that extreme, but the ones that are tend to make me want to give them a wider berth than the hypocritical ones have already managed to do.

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. -Lazarus Long

Valanthe wrote:It's odd how a country that is supposed to have separation of church and state in its very founding document has so many extremists in it.

Actually, the fact that this country was "founded" by a bunch of nutty puritans is a very central part of why we have the respect clause in the first amendment. The puritans left England because they were sick of the church being a branch of the Crown, and didn't want to be member of a church whose doctrine and philosophy was determined via politics. The respect clause was just as much about protecting religion from politics as it was about protecting government from religion.

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré

Country wasn't founded by the nutty protestants. The land was perhaps.... invaded and set up for Europeans by them, in part. But that all either started as or ended up as royal colonies, no less than other parts of the English Empire.

The united states was actually founded by a slew of intelligent enlightenmnet thinkers, the most prominent of which made very sure that Separation of Church and State was an inherent part of the constitution.

So yes, the history does lead to an explanation of the radicals in this country (on all sides), while still having sensible ideas in the constitution.

daftbeaker wrote:But if I stop bugging you I'll have to go back to arguing with Qwerty about whether beauty is truth and precisely what we both mean by 'purple'

Any statistical increase in the usage of the emoticon since becoming Admin should not be considered significant, meaningful, or otherwise cause for worry.

That's why I put "founded" in big, ironic quotation marks. I suppose it would just be more accurate to say "guys that arrived in what is now New England first."

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré

PKMKII wrote:That's why I put "founded" in big, ironic quotation marks. I suppose it would just be more accurate to say "guys that arrived in what is now New England first."

Would you be referring to the natives? They were here first.

Columbus Day! An entire day celebrating the life of a lost white guy! When he left he didn't know where he was going, when there got there he didn't know where he was, and when he got home he had no idea where he'd been.

Besides, Scandinavians, specifically Icelanders, were here before Columbus as well.

Roy Hunter wrote:Then, when you've got to know them a bit and their defences are down, you go all Scott the Pirate on them...

PKMKII wrote:That's why I put "founded" in big, ironic quotation marks. I suppose it would just be more accurate to say "guys that arrived in what is now New England first."

Would you be referring to the natives? They were here first.

Okay you pedantic bastards, the first Limeys to show up and build a house in New England! sheeesh.

Scott the Pirate wrote:Besides, Scandinavians, specifically Icelanders, were here before Columbus as well.

Difference being that the Scandinavians didn't set up any truly permanent settlements. They just arrived, did some fishing, and went back.

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré

Scott the Pirate wrote:Columbus Day! An entire day celebrating the life of a lost white guy! When he left he didn't know where he was going, when there got there he didn't know where he was, and when he got home he had no idea where he'd been.

[pedantry]Columbus was planning on going to India, which might just work if North America didn't exist. Perfectly reasonable assumption given the knowledge available. Also, on a previously unknown continent it's a bit hard not to be lost[/pedantry]

Has anyone tried bringing up the Treaty of Tripoli when faced with the 'The US was founded on christian principles' statement?

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything - Friedrich Nietzsche

The great thing about Beaker is his ability to provoke while still being decorous, or at least within acceptable rules of conduct - Qwertyuiopasd

All the time. Also works well when people try to argue that America and the Muslim nations are inherently enemies.

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré

It's very likely that European fishermen knew about North America, at least the northern portion in the vicinity of the Grand Banks, well before Columbus got around to his first trip across the Atlantic. There is historical evidence of a successful colonization of Greenland by Norse settlers, that lasted around 500 years before dying out. The European colonization effort that started in the early 1600's is still about 100 years shy of this record. The book 1421 presents a decent case for a pre-Columbian Chinese expedition to North America, as well. It's entirely possible that Columbus knew exactly where he was going when he left - I've seen a precolumbian map of an island that looks suspiciously like Puerto Rico, but of course I can't find it now. Columbus, on his first expedition, described the natives as lovely industrious and intelligent people. On his second trip, looking for slaves to enrich himself and his sponsors, the same people were described as stupid, lazy and generally inferior. Columbus was a colossal asshole, who deserves to have a urinal mounted on his grave, and we celebrate a huge annual holiday in his honor.

"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."("Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.")-- Friedrich Schiller (1759–1805)Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.-- Philip K DickOK, now let's look at four dimensions on the blackboard.-- Dr. JoyEnglish isn't much of a language for swearing. When I studied Ancient Greek I was delighted to discover a single word - Rhaphanidosthai - which translates roughly as "Be thou thrust up the fundament with a radish for adultery."

I read a book about cod that said there were indications that the Basque fisherman had not only found the Grand Banks before Columbus, but also Newfoundland. Apparently the Basque fishing fleet would put to sea, the other fishermen had no idea where they went, but they returned with their holds stuffed with magnificent dried salt cod. And another early explorer reported the coast of Newfoundland full of Basque fisherman salting and drying their catch.

The Norse built a settlement in Newfoundland, at L'Anse Aux Meadows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows. I think it was an outpost of their settlements in Greenland, which collapsed when the Little Ice Age hit. Greenland was barely marginal for the cattle and agriculture lifestyle that the Norse were determined to have. Once the climate shifted, it just couldn't support them. Ironically, the native "skraelings" (I believe that meant "wretches" in Norse) that the Norsemen despised were the ones with the culture that allowed survival in that environment. If the Norsemen had respected the natives, and learned from them about things like fishing and seal hunting, they could have survived in Greenland. But no, they built their churches, raised their cows, tried to farm, and all died.