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What's the problem with the dialog wheel? Most RPG conversations only give you 3 options anyway, and when they need more, they just go to a "more options" or "investigate" section on the left. It makes it analog-stick-friendly while still allowing for the same exact thing.

Honestly, it had some really good writing but also a lot of writing that completely bogged down the pacing of the story. It's held as a paragon of good writing, but I think part of the reason that the style of writing isn't used in video games is that it doesn't fit the medium really well.

I can agree with a lot of that. There was a lot of good writing buried under a lot of fluff. I think other games have long since surpassed it as the pinnacle of games writing, though PS:T probably was reigning champion for several years.

I don't think anyone is complaining about the placement of the dialogue around a wheel (even if it's less ideal for a mouse then the old way), but how they actually handled the dialogue, making you choose a very shortened version of what you said that didn't actually let you know what you where getting into (also, the overuse of just the good/bad/neutral thing).

Well to be fair, there were also plenty of times in DAO (and maybe KOTOR but I haven't played that in a long time) where I choose something witty and oh god apparently I wasn't joking oh god abort please tell me I have a save right before this conversation. At least DA2 told you what sort of response you would have.

I've just never liked it. I don't like that I don't know verbatim what my character will say, and I don't like my options being boiled down to "Good answer/neutral answer/massive dickhole answer." My issue with BioWare is that they polarize their games so much in their dialogue/morality systems. Even though I love KOTOR, my biggest issue with the first game is that you were sort of punished for being a "grey" Jedi, because that locked you out of a lot of gear, and you didn't get any Force bonuses like with being dark or light.

But the dialogue in KOTOR was awesome because I felt it had a good array of responses; and, more importantly, I knew exactly what my character was going to say. I don't like choosing "I like cats" and hearing my character respond "CATS ARE DELICIOUS AND SLAUGHTERING THEM BRINGS ME JOY."

Also, I want skill-check dialogue. It makes the game so much more replayable. One time through in KOTOR you might invest points in stealth, and the next time in Demolitions, and with demolitions maybe you can call out a character trying to give you an item and say "That shit's a bomb, yo." I just loathe the dialogue wheel. It feels so plastic and fake. It completely ruins the immersion for me immediately.

Sure, it's more analogue stick-friendly, but I just think it's a totally inferior system to having skill checks and fully written dialogue. I'm totally okay with taking the money that would otherwise go to voicing the main character's lines and putting that money towards having more dialogue choices.

I felt like after the first Mass Effect, I never had a line of dialog that was ambiguous to the option on the wheel. Having the full line of dialog visible on screen works better when you have a silent character that isn't about to act out the entire sentence, which is why I can fully understand and agree with their decision to use short phrases.

As to skill checks, I'm a big fan of them too. There's no reason they can't do them on the dialog wheel; they just choose not to (also, ME2 and ME3 have a mostly skill-less RPG system, instead upgrading particular facets of things you can do in combat; ME1's skills were mostly superficial anyway). The "good guy", "neutral", "dick" options seem to derive from all the way back in the D&D days, due to the alignment system. The difference is, as you said in slightly different words, since KOTOR, BioWare got obsessed with a binary morality system that really doesn't make much sense outside of Star Wars.

There's nothing wrong with the wheel interface itself in my eyes; BioWare just needs to implement skill checks, realize that not every moral choice is black and white, and be sure that their short phrases are clear.

You're seeing kotor through nostalgia goggles. I have a toon on Tatooine right now and that game is a lot less subtle than newer games about being a giant asshole to everybody. And the "I love cats" thing you mention doesn't happen neither in the mass effect series nor in da2. Do you have real examples?

In ME1 on Virmire when you have the option to save your Krogan pal or have him shot down I wanted to not say the paragon line but I did want to save him. There was a neutral line and on the selection it said "Let's talk this out". I knew there's a chance it won't work but then Shepard goes and says something dumb (don't remember what it is, but it isn't even that line in quotes) and then Ashley shot him. It made me very unhappy.

Even though I love KOTOR, my biggest issue with the first game is that you were sort of punished for being a "grey" Jedi, because that locked you out of a lot of gear, and you didn't get any Force bonuses like with being dark or light.

The entire purpose of the game was choosing Dark or Light. Your complaint may be better suited for other games, but you're playing a Star Wars Jedi game and can't decide between light and dark, you may have picked the wrong game.

And your complaint about the wheel seems to have nothing to do with the actual mechanism of the wheel but the direction they took with using voice acting and not showing full lines. Lots of people prefer that change (including me).

The universe George Lucas came up with has always been very black and white, so having a black and white morality system didn't feel entirely out of place. It's a shared flaw, but a flaw you could forgive due to its source material. The unfortunate thing is that BioWare has shoe-horned the morality system in everything they've done since. A decade later, and they've done very little to innovate a very basic morality system that tends to simplify their storytelling.

By the way, I'm replaying TW2 for the 3rd time and I've noticed how the dialogue options sometimes don't match the option text in fairly significant ways, but only for non-decision dialogue it seems. Have you noticed that?

I just started a game yesterday after buying it during the Summer Sale, and I think like the second dialogue choice in the game occurs when an interrogator offers to shake your hand (you are handcuffed), and the option is "Oh, very funny."

Yeah exactly that sort of thing. Actually in two cases that come to mind you can be killed for pushing dialogue too hard with the "Fuck you" response a second time even if the first time you thought the dialogue was indicated Geralt would merely jest at the other person.

Well, that's not entirely fair. Gray Jedis are a thing; hell, one of your companions is one (Jolee Bindo). I don't think a lack of rewards for going gray is a big deal in the bigger scheme of things - I'd diss the simplistic yet dull combat system before going off about lack of compensation for going gray - but it's a valid point.

The entire purpose of the game was choosing Dark or Light. Your complaint may be better suited for other games, but you're playing a Star Wars Jedi game and can't decide between light and dark, you may have picked the wrong game.

Gray Jedis are a thing but sort of an odd exception, irrelevant thing. Star Wars and Jedi means light side, or dark side. That's what the universe comes down to, and so much of the universe (like force powers and even the look you should have) was built around that well before KOTOR came out. They were just staying true to the world of Star Wars.

You should also remember, it's not like a lot of games at the time even gave you the option of being evil. That was fairly fresh, even fresher when you didn't just get to be evil, you got to choose to be a Sith. That was huge.

I really like how at the time KoTOR was mocked for having this sort of black and white morality that you complain about, but now, viewed through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, it has transcended beyond that. I'd go ahead and say that out of all Bioware games KoTOR was actually the one with most polarized good/evil responses. Compared to that game, Mass Effect is downright subtle.

You know, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I really like how Deus Ex: Human Revolution handled this. If you're unfamiliar, the dialogue options had an adjective to describe them (ie, empathetic, confrontational, pessimistic), which would vary between conversations and be appropriate. Under each adjective was a one sentence or so paraphrase (ie: Empathetic: I never thought about it that way.) The character would invariably say the exact words in the paraphrase, but he would add on a few more sentences, too. I love this system, and think it would work wonderfully for DA:I (and any other voiced RPGs).

Edit: The game also optionally uses a wonderful social manipulation system, much like a skill check but also requiring players to pay attention and make smart decisions. Though I do love straight up skill challenges, I'd be interested to see something similar here, too.

The only problem that I have with the dialogue wheel, is that it often didn't seem to really represent the "tone" of the action all that well, particularly for the renegade choices. It'd be something innocuous sounding, then Shepard would be a raging asshole.

Dragon Age 2 augmented the dialog wheel to include pretty much what you're describing. There would be a symbol in the center of the wheel that gave you the tone of the response. If you had an option that read rude, but the symbol was a heart or a happy drama mask, then you knew that it was a playful jab. If it read rude and the symbol was crossed swords, them's fightin' words.

DA2 got a whole, whole, whole lot wrong, but the evolution of the dialog wheel was awesome. I hope it comes back in DA3, and something similar to it shows up in the next Mass Effect.

I don't like that I don't know verbatim what my character will say, and I don't like my options being boiled down to "Good answer/neutral answer/massive dickhole answer."

The Walking Dead did essentially that (at least the first part), and it didn't keep the game off anyone's GOTY lists. More than once I picked a sarcastic response expecting it to be sincere, or vice versa--and you can't just reload your quicksave if you don't like how Lee says it.

Maybe you didn't like TWD either, but incomplete dialogue previews have been accepted both popularly and critically in plenty of non-Bioware titles.

I think the wheel has more to do with being able to create a better flow in the dialogue (more cinematic), but I agree that they can give unaccurate responses. I think it also makes it hard to play a neutral character, almost to the point that you should have just been able to choose "good" or "bad" from the start of mass effect.

They were the actual lines your character would say...if he was a dickhole, friendly, or diplomatic, yes. There was no "right" choice in Mass Effect either, unless you're looking for a very specific outcome, in which case, you're doing the same thing in Planescape: Torment. I hate to say it, but I think you might have some nostalgia goggles on here.