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It’s not like Vikings coach Leslie Frazier was breaking any new ground when he said this morning on a conference call that teams need to have the left tackle position solidified in today’s NFL. Minnesota — thanks to their 3-13 record a year ago — was able to draft Matt Kalil with the third fourth pick overall and have been able to do just that. The Cardinals, with Levi Brown done for the year and D’Anthony Batiste (below) filling in, are trying to make do the best they can. The Cardinals did bring Pat McQuistan back this week after releasing him after the third game, and maybe that means a change is possible.

Even Kalil has needed help once in a while, although Frazier said it hasn’t been nearly as much as the coaches expected. The Cardinals have done some things to help Batiste, although they also have to help out rookie right tackle Bobby Massie too. And the more help needed for the tackles, the more it changes what a team can do in the passing game.

“When people can force you to keep seven people in or even eight people in, it just reduces your potential to make plays down the field, so you better have a dynamic guy outside when you go max protection and a dynamic quarterback as well,” Frazier said. “You don’t want to end up having to utilize people often to help on the offensive line. You are going to have to do it sometimes, but to get into a situation when you’re doing it much more than releasing players, you simplify to the point where you make it a lot easier for defenses to defend you.”

kolb has been a great QB if you think about it. with no block his QB rating is 89.6 8tds 3ints 109 of 183 thats very good to have no block.john is good to but i think both of them will be great QBs when we can block better. one of the worse QBs i’ve ever seen is alex smith but the blockers give him a lot of time to make him look like he’s worth something. but the gaints rushed him and made him show his true colors last week.

massie is getting a baptism by fire, this is a very tough year for him and I hope it doesn’t ruin him as a player, there is a reason teams usually take longer to bring along linemen. Batiste is in a similar situation and this hell he is going through could either forge him into a man who plays above his natural ability or leave him broken and battered.

This year could very well be done with a loss in Minnesota. the only way to recover from the loss to buffalo is to get a couple more wins that we are expected to lose.

I suggest the real question is who returns from this year’s O-line in total, and who is coaching the line. Levi Brown, Sendlein and Colledge fit somewhere in the mix, along with this year’s draft picks. Everyone else, including the position coach, will be gone if things don’t get much, much better.

Nice article as usual. I’ve been very critical of Grimm the last couple of years, but there seems to be more teams than not this year having offensive line issues. Is it really Grimm’s fault the line is so bad I’m starting to think maybe not as much as I thought…

It seems the reason the cards haven’t drafted OL is simply that the draft didn’t have very much talent. You can count the teams that have a solid line on one hand. Even the Patriots are having trouble replacing their line. Their have been very few stud OL lately in the draft it seems like just one or two a year. Which you might say that the NFL is really a Tackle league not a QB league. Like Darren was refering to in his article. Look what Anderson did with Joe Thomas watching his back. He made the Pro Bowl.

Darren, what would you equate the lack of talent at Tackle too? Poor college coaching? Maybe a cycle in the draft? Or just that the defensive players speed, strength and scheme’s have out matched the ability for most lines to be able to react to effectively?

1) Big guys with any athleticism probably would rather be a defensive lineman/pass rusher than OL, so better players gravitate that way when younger;
2) The game of football was built with the run in mind — win in the trenches, right? –but it’s evolved into a passing game that, frankly, doesn’t bode as well for OL in space;
3) Spread offenses in college make it harder to learn proper techniques in the way NFL runs offenses. Many times the ball is gone too quickly for flaws to matter.

I also agree that in-general, fewer stud tackles are around. Let’s face it, as hard as it is to find stud QBs, we are still talking about athletes who are 6-3, 6-4, 225 pounds or something like that. Not the everyday man, but there are a lot more of those potential guys than athletic 6-5, 300-pound guys. The pool of humans is simply smaller.

To your first point, would paying OT more than DLinemen on teams help counteract some of the more athletic big guys going DE? Wouldn’t you think that would be the best way to even the playing field so the talent might gravitate that way? It is an offensive league and would help protect players from injury by having better blocking?

Darren,
Leslie Frazier is telling us NOTHING.
There are many ways to overcome defensive ends who love to speed rush. Case in point was Simeon Rice. When he played for the Cardinals teams would salivate when he rushed the passer. Rice’s speed rush would leave a gaping hole between end and tackle and teams like the Giants and Cowboys would laugh as they ran trucks through the vacated hole. Cards offensive problems are:
1) poor play calling
2) mediocre QB play
3) slow offensive team speed- at every position
4) failure to help the tackles (when Lawrence Taylor played the Redskins helped the OT with the TE and a back.)
5) there are plays to beat the wide pass rush and for teams stacking the box- the Cards offensive plays are too slow developing to capitalize.

The Cardinals problem on both offense and defense are the mainly the result of a novice DC and a novice OC. Unless Whiz finally understands this, he should not get to continue as HC.

Cards cant’ over look the Oline this year’s draft in Round 1. If they can’t get QB G. Smith or M. Barkley then they need to draft the best Left tackle available, either J. Mathews or D. Thomas. Time to move on from Levi and Bastita, keep N. Potter as backup, unless Nate doesn’t look promising, then sign a free agent to back up.
It may take some convincing by Whiz to sell M. Bidwell to keep Grimm…but with the results and his salary, could be difficult to sell.

For a long time I have believed that when building a team the O line is the starting point. There are three reasons: 1) offense is a more precise endeavor than defense (which is a wrecking operation) and requires longer to mature; 2) a team needs stability and experience at its most important position, QB, and that player must be protected; and 3) the offense can barely function with a bad O line.

Madden also says start with the O line. Others disagree.

Anyway, I find it frustrating that the Cardinals not only seem to disagree, but by their drafting suggest either that the O-line is unimportant, or can be built last.

Maybe you are thinking of someone I am not aware of, but if you are thinking of the Castillo recently fired by the Eagles, that would be Juan Castillo. And I absolutely agree he is worth consideration. He was a very good O-line coach with Philly for a long time before they decided it was a good idea to make him a D-coordinator.

I kept saying how you better wake up and face reality. We suck. The teams we should beat, we don’t. We should be 6 and 0 but we’re not because we don’t know how to win the big games. Coach Ken and staff need to go today especially Russ Grimm.

Let’s just pick up some free-agent OT cast-offs during the offseason instead of drafting any OT high. Just keep the same lineup together, regardless of skill level, and things are bound to improve as the players get to know working with each other. – Whiz and Russ

What is this guy talking bout? The redskins blocked LT…really??? The game has evolved a lot since the 1990s my man;smh…were 4-2 but could easily b 5-1…lets calm down folks…WE ARE STILL TIED FOR FIRST N OUR DIVISION. Skeleton is I believe 6-2 as a starter;letsnot forget

In an earlier thread, some fans complained because some of us were critical of various deficiencies of the team. They went so far as to tell us to not post any more comments on the blog.

I have an analogy for those fans who complained; if you have a spouse, relative or a close friend who is addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling or some other vice, do you say to them, “it’s OK, Joe, things will work out and get better. Don’t worry about it.”

We fans who criticize the OL, QBs, coaches and/or the Front Office are like a friend who says to the addict “you need to get help. I want you to succeed. Here are some suggestions.”

Im not sure if this is 100% true but i feel it is every time we go in to a game and everyone has us to loose we come out with a win the last two games alot of ppl had us to win and you know how that went down so my point is i love it when on nfl network and espn have us on the loosing end of the game it makes me feel more at ease and less presure anyone agree ?

Hey the cards do not suck, they have their issues. Take a look at the patriots, they are a very potent offense and they could not do anything against us. Tom Brady could not do anything against us!!!! Every good team has bad days. Our oline is horrible but Massie is a rookie and I don’t think there are alot of people on this blog that could do better, if you could then you would be playing in the nfl. Give the kid a break. I loathed Kolb at the beginning of the year but he is an alright guy and he plays with heart. Anybody in here want to go out and get crushed 17 times? I agree we need to get some help on the line but the cards absolutely don’t suck. Larry obviously saw something in this team and if he signed on for his career then we gotta believe. Look at it this way it is always exciting being a cardinals fan. As the famous Forrest Gump said ” The cardinals are like a box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get”.

Darren,
The talk about offensive tackles is overdone. If you go back to the NFC Championship game last year between the Giants and 49ers, it’s amazing the battering Eli Manning took. The defensive line of SF was beating the Giant OL time after time.
Manning was sacked 6 times; completed 55% of his passes and the running game averaged 3 yds carry. But the Giants won the game because they had no turnovers to SF’s two costly fumbles and Manning overcame his OL’s deficiencies.. The Giants’ offensive line looked terrible but they went on to win the Superbowl.
In the same way the Cardinals could have won the last two games. Stop blaming the OL and let’s work with the personnel we have. So many here are calling for us to draft OTs. Fact is with the speed of the defensive players, all the OTs are getting beat and the OTs have gotten to big to prevent speed rushes. How important are Eli Mannings quick decisions to the ratings that his tackles receive. And don’t forget, our OL, under Grimm, looked great as they went up and down the field in the SB with Warner as QB. Anyone questioning Grimm’s ability to be the offensive line coach is a fool. Bettter to question Horton’s ability to be DC.

To all you kolb lovers please don’t watch this weekend Cards game. You might drop dead in front of your TV set. The reason cause you guys know everything and if JS messes up that might be the end of you.

All this talk about going out and looking at trades for top tier OT’s…. Not gonna happen. No team in this league is going to let go of their best OT, especially someone like Jake Long or Joe Thomas.

Now that being said, there are plaenty of teams that have back-ups that would be a major upgrade to what we have right now. Although Massie is coming along as expected but there is a reason Batiste wasn’t drafted or used as an LT prior to this season…… Why? Because he’s a Guard! Just like Kieth was a guard that Grimm thought he could turn into a tackle. Not gonna happen. If you’re trying new things then why not plug in Potter at left tackle to see how he does? At least then we can use the rookie excuse. Right now it’s a poor coaching decision.

so there are a few options out there. Personally I think Collins would be an outstanding addition. Young and very capable.

In reallity it comes down to the GM and Coaches to pull the trigger on a deal. Funny they were willing to pull the trigger on a trade for a QB that can’t seem to stay healthy for an entire season in his career and pay him an unrealistic amount of money and getting rid of our pro bowl CB but they’re not doing the same to protect their investment.

Seriously, explain to me the “cheap” comment. Something like that needs legitimate examples, besides “Oh, they haven’t signed an offensive lineman.” In the face of contract extensions, adding Kolb and his contract (whether you agree with it or not), paying Whisenhunt at the time one of the largest contracts, explain to me how ownership is “cheap.”

Horton’s def is why we have won four games and you cant compare warner to kolb cause warner had been around for a long time and could read the defs just like the manning boys can.in other words when you lose a qb like kurt you miss his smarts you miss his on how but you are right georgiebird that game the giants still won but eli did not get hurt beat up yes but not hurt so everytime the oline let the qb get hit you risk a chance of your starting qb getting hurt if eli would have got hurt you think they still would won that game or the super bowl think about it.

@Louis,
I think it is the other way around. I think the cards play down to lesser teams.
@BIG RED
Oh…… i’m going to watch, and back Skelton 100% pray he doesn’t give me any material to post. Now that Kolb is hurt, Skelton is the Man. It doesn’t change the fact that he is a turnover machine, but he is our only hope right now. I watch the games and don’t buy in to Skeltons 6-2 as a starter last year,(I loved the record) but watched our D and PP win most of those games despite Skeltons inability to sustain drives during regulation play, He did finally do OK in the 4th and OT periods. I watched Kolb play solid football VS the harder teams on our schedule last year, with no D at all. I also watched him make poor reads and get hurt way to much I labeled him the “Glass Man” in this blog. but over the course of the 15 games played in Card Red Kolb wins hands down.

I find it sooo funny how you call us Kolb lovers, I’m a Kolb Fan now, and when I say “now” I mean it.(Darren can back that statement up) That only happened over the course of this year, as I watched him mature and understand how important that role is.

Im going to give you some info to look over for a second, here are Kolbs games played last year.

@ Kings= L A/P like 200yds 3TD’s No D at all Final 10-34 loss by 24 Points

H Pitt= L Still no D at all Final 20-32 Loss by 12 points (Play Off Team)

@ Ravens= L Still no D showing up to play Final 27-30 Loss by 3 points (Play Off Team)

Next game is Skelton VS STL and the D shows up for the rest of the season.

Answer me this one question, If the D played in the first half of the 2011 season like it played the second half how many of those 1-4 point losses do we win?
My guess is all of them, making us 5-2 when he got hurt, and the back up went 7-2 with one of the best D’s in the second half of the season.
Giving us a 12-4 record, and a play off birth. Enter 2012 with Kolb and this D, they were winning better than last years run over top tier opponents, with a bad O-Line.
Truth be told, last year Kolb had 253 drop backs and 8 INT’s Skelton had 274 drop backs and 14 INT’s almost double Kolbs and only put up 14 more points than Kolb did. 2012 Kolb has had 183 drop backs and only 3 INT’s Skelton has had 38 drop backs and 2 INT’s. That is all I need to know about who needs to be at the helm! ( as NFL Coaches say if you loose the turnover battle you loose the games 9 out of 10 times last year we had a killer D to help offset the int’s and PP #21 won 2 of those skelton credited wins with punt returns, our D was part of 2 of those wins as well so I give skelton 3 real wins over the 7 he played in.)

That’s my take on the QB battle, That is why I’m a Kolb Believer and feel if he is healthy he needs to ne IN!

bill bidwell has always had a reputation of running the cards cheap. we had the lowest league salary for the longest. that translates into what product you are putting on the field. all i was pointing out. i assume if we weren’t as cheap, we would make bigger splashes to get players that we need to make out ball club better.

in regards to the recent transactions we have made, i credit bidwill jr for showing more splurge like intentions. ever since bill handed the reins to mike, we have done a little more.

imagine if that was the culture we created years ago.

you have heard the term ” dollar bill ” right darren? remember when we low balled the qb that got us to the superbowl?

1984 to 2008 we had one winning season, i guess that all on the coaches and players, not due to owners being cheap with operations and player management.

Won’t argue that it was a problem for a long time. But to take something from say, 2003 and use it as the rallying point for now isn’t fair. I’ve been around this team since 1999. I know very well the problems and covered many of the issues you spoke about. I get being frustrated as fans. But I also know this team had one of the biggest payrolls in the NFL in 2011, for instance, yet people — when they are mad — fall back into the “cheap” shot.

The Warner stuff was business. No other team was stepping up to offer a ton of money to Kurt either. Obviously it couldn’t have bothered him too much since he re-signed.

You want big splashes. They went out and got Kolb. Obviously that didn’t work out the way people wanted, and I get that. But if there is going to be criticism, let’s make it be worthy. If you’re running a business — and that’s what this is — you aren’t going to spend just for the sake of spending. If you don’t think a guy is going to help, what’s the point of signing him? To appease the fans? If you don’t think he’s going to help and he doesn’t, the fans are going to complain anyway. If you think a guy can help, you sign him.

Bottom line, you have to win. If you don’t win, people will find a way to rip you. If you are the Redskins and spend a ton and make “splashes” and lose, you are ripped for that. If you struggle on a budget — and the Cards aren’t the Cowboys or the Redskins — you’re ripped for that. That’s the game and they know it. No big deal.

But again, other than your Kurt comment, you don’t have any real recent examples. Not sure what, say, 1990, has to do with this team. Some of the players weren’t even born yet.

@bluepitt I think the stat you need to look at is 3-outs Kolb has a knack for taking 8-9 yards sacks at the worst possible times. The D gets balmed alot but when the O is not producing and they are running back on the field before the even catch their breath its gonna make them look bad. Is Skelton a better qb? prolly not. Is he a better fit for this team? I think so he put us in position to win that last game after coming off the bench. I think when people see Kolb leaving so many plays on the field and stalling out drives constantly after 1 or no first downs it just kills their spirit. How much you wanna bet our Oline starts looking way better just like our D did last year.

so your saying it has been a problem for the longest, but its not as bad now, so its not fair to make that stab? or we had one of the highest paid salarys in 2011, so its not fair to compare that to the team salary say, back in 2003? currently were 24th in the league for higest team salary, and its was probably around the same back then as theres only 32 teams. i think its far to make that stab just based on that alone.

i understand the kurt deal was buisness. and since “No other team was stepping up to offer a ton of money to Kurt” we had the leverage. maybe his age played a huge roll. but what about all those players we had on our team from the superbowl that we let walk, ( and many others before ) when other teams did offer a “ton” of money, what happened then, was it buisness? We were simply to cheap to match the offers. and of course kurt wasnt complaining, do u want 20mil for two seasons, or do you not want to get paid? he was in a corner.

so the only big splash you could come up with, being that you have been covering the team since 1999, is kevin kolb. my point exactly

simply pointing out we can blame a lot of our problems on our owners. thats why my comment was titled blame the owners. i feel recently, since bill handed the control to mike, we have been making more splashes. i can only wonder the position we would be in, if bill spend some money in the earlier years.

@bluepitt, How quickly you forgot pp won the first game against carolina, not kk. and don’t forget some of the close games we lost with kk it was the D that made them close. In different ways the D gave kk the ball in the middle of the field and etc…Let’s just forget all this QB bull crap and cheer for our team the Cardinals. We need 100% back up for our Big Red Machine the Cards!!!!

@thebreakneck,
I can see your point, The O probably gets better due to the simple fact that skelton does get it out a touch faster than Kolb, but in doing so he gives it away way more. I took 4 games away from Skelton’s wins last year because he had nuthing to do with them. I just dont understand how with 275 atempts Skelton only gets 1913 yards last year and Kolb has 253 att and 1955 yards, so with 22 less passes kolb gets us 43 more yards if he is going 3 and out a bunch. I can remember when Skelton couldnt get anything done in the first 3 quarters of most all his games last year, and he didnt get a darn thing done in the first 3 quarters VS the SeaChickens this year, and in the 3rd quarter he went 3 and out every time on the field. Kolb came in and sustained the drive to winn it.(and kept that pace for 3 more games) Our O line is super bad this year and John is way bigger than Kolb but Ill take a bet on seeing the rook behind center verry soon! You forget Kolb put us at 4-2 with the worst line we have ever had!