Clouded wrote:I get the feeling that no-one here supports the use of benzodiazepine drugs either.

It's not a matter of supporting or not supporting for me.

I don't have a problem with benzo use (although highly addictive) per say.

The problem for me is that modern medicine uses these drugs in place of actual healing because modern medicine knows absolutely nothing about healing as there is a monopoly of control that the pharmaceutical companies have over the entire "diseasecare" industry in this country (US). Drugs equal money. Healing does not equal money. Drugs might alleviate symptoms, but do nothing to heal.

If Benzo drugs help you, then by all means keep using them.

I had crohns disease and severe IBS for a number of years. I was put on prednisone and bowel relaxant drugs countless times. Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory drug. It stops flare ups in their tracks. But, it does nothing as to why the Crohns was there in the first place (stress). I put my crohns disease into remission with diet and meditation (stress relief) when doctors only told me that I would be on lifelong drugs and also the potential of a bowel resection. I say....FUCK that. I'm keeping my bowels!

Understandably, genetics play a factor as well. I have a genetic mutation of the MTHFR gene from both of my parents, which makes one more susceptible to disease, but doesn't actually cause disease.

So, it's not a black and white issue as to whether drugs are good or bad. It depends on a number of factors including your reason for taking them in the first place.

Clouded wrote:I get the feeling that no-one here supports the use of benzodiazepine drugs either.

Nice response, enlightened2b. If I had my choice I would go with an SSRI or SNRI (selective neuroepinephrine re uptake inhibitor)...or something like Wellbutrin. The Benzos are addictive and, while something like Paxil or Celexa can be difficult to stop, they don't have nearly the side effects and rapid increase in tolerance of the benzos. I would go on an SSRI for 6 months while in cognitive therapy to change negative thought patterns, or follow Ashley's advice. This is the most potent combo.

KB said: , QiGong has made me realize that our European culture has no native systems for movement-for-health.

.... dancing... freely dancing authentic movement to the music of instruments or nature. All throughout Europe the natives danced/dance.

So maybe it's not so much a limitation of native cultures, but limitations on them. Some folks started telling others what dancing 'is' and how it 'should' be etc etc Watch any two year old, they dance naturally. Then watch any teenager - if they're not drunk or stoned they're like robots. If you catch an adult dancing sober these days ... whooo hooo!!!

We used to walk on tracks and run in fields and bend and scoop and reach and pick and dig the earth etc as part of our daily lives.

When we stopped doing that someone decided they could make a tidy profit out of our need for exercise - hence gyms etc No different to cars, health care, education, food etc we only believe we need the 'middle men' and the admen and the money etc.

Agreed Jen! Especially about the movement of children. One of my greatest job perks at the school where I work is to watch the kids run at break. Little kids run with unbridled Joy and lack of self consciousness, all out in short bursts. As soon as puberty hits they stiffen and slouch.....the only time they run is to chase a ball.

I'm going to create a class called 'child's play' and charge adults big money to run around a playground like little kids, climbing on the monkey bars and playing tag. (I've actually joined the kids in their play and it's a workout!)

Clouded wrote:I get the feeling that no-one here supports the use of benzodiazepine drugs either.

The danger here is that there are two classes of drugs that can kill a person who withdrawals from them, benzos and alcohol. What I see on TV these days is the pharmaceutical companies selling sickness to the population. While there are people who need medication, I believe that the vast majority of people could ease or eliminate their symptoms by diet, exercise, meditation, Qigong, Yoga, Tai Chi, CBT, ACT, etc. Of course this takes dedication and commitment to make such a lifestyle change, and unfortunately for the majority of the population, people do not want to make these commitments, but simply want the symptoms to go away. Drugs can mask these symptoms, but unfortunately, whether they are prescription, illegal, or legal, the use of drugs always comes with a price and a rebound effect.

I personally practice Qigong and meditation and have seen and felt amazing results from this.

Just like any musical instrument takes practice, as does dancing with rythym.

However, naturally freely expressing yourself can as a form of movement, IS dancing.

It might not necessarily fit into the column of 'salsa, meringue, rumba, etc', nor have a rythym associated with it, but it's still a free form of expressive art.

I am one of those people at weddings and bar mitzvahs that goes out on the dance floor and makes a total fool of myself because I have no idea what I am doing out there and it's all good. I move to the music.

Every guitar player has its own unique expressive form/style of playing as does dancing. But, that aside, picking up a guitar and playing actually takes understanding of the instrument and some musical knowledge while dancing is essentially just movement in an expressive form.

KB said: , QiGong has made me realize that our European culture has no native systems for movement-for-health.

.... dancing... freely dancing authentic movement to the music of instruments or nature. All throughout Europe the natives danced/dance.

So maybe it's not so much a limitation of native cultures, but limitations on them. Some folks started telling others what dancing 'is' and how it 'should' be etc etc Watch any two year old, they dance naturally. Then watch any teenager - if they're not drunk or stoned they're like robots. If you catch an adult dancing sober these days ... whooo hooo!!!

We used to walk on tracks and run in fields and bend and scoop and reach and pick and dig the earth etc as part of our daily lives.

When we stopped doing that someone decided they could make a tidy profit out of our need for exercise - hence gyms etc No different to cars, health care, education, food etc we only believe we need the 'middle men' and the admen and the money etc.

All that is true, and I said "systems." India and China both developed systematic programs of movement--yoga, qigong, tai chi--with very direct links between movements and health benefits. I don't think the West has come up with anything as systematized until modern gym exercises.

I realise I'm being pedantic with the ignorance-arrogance thing, and I have no less compassion for the person displaying either trait.

The difference is in the kind of 'quality' of the energy and then where & how it flows outwards. To me it's kind of the same energetic difference and flowing between pity & empathy, between fright and fear, between discrimination and bigotry - there is a palpable addition of resistance to the facts that are knowable if one gets out of their own egoic frame of reference about whatever, it's an added energy to the pure expressions of ignorance, empathy, fright & discrimination.

KB, you noticed the difference when you realised what your shyness actually was, it flowed out expecting allowing others to do what you could - if you chose - do yourself, and if others allowed you to express and experience your full capacity to relate and to socialise.

To excuse, to minimise, to treat one as the other, just skews stuff as it flows outwards as you noticed. It's just not honest, and of course honesty is the highest form of love.

To excuse the 'superiority' & unfounded 'rights' of a person energising arrogance, as if it is ignorance (or pity not empathy, or bigotry not ignorant discrimination, or fear over a fright)- keeps them in the dark as to the difference. For me it would be like if say KB everyone pandered to you as 'shy', excused you and did not leave room for you to grow into who you really are - you would not have grown in awareness and in outer expression to be the more honest and wise and loving to self and others person that you are now.

In CWG this is discussed in terms of if you allow an abuser to continue to abuse (simply misuse through error in thinking), then you are being an abuser (misusing them by error of thinking) by keeping them in the darkness, rather than being a light yourself and creating space for them to be their best possible self. That's why honesty is the highest form of love.

Allowing humankind to think that their misuse of the other species that are interconnected and intelligent, dismissing the intelligence as if only human intelligence exists, is merely the human state, or ignorance is unkind to both humans and other species. (it's only an 'adopted' human ignorance and misuse - and it's only been adopted fairly recently in human evolution as we've moved away from and isolated ourselves from the natural world and we use excuses to do so.)

It does and doesn't matter, but it does and doesn't matter.

There are intricacies of course. The documentary I bought a Rainforest details the intricacies in 'wrong thinking' 'mis-understandings' really well, across humans and species. I thoroughly recommend it, it's quite an enlightening journey to join him on. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0465vqh

Recognising and calling out the actual energies in motion accurately just peels more layers of the onion away. Saying oh, we can leave that layer and pretend that it's something else is just going to skew stuff.

No choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

If one thinks of it along the growth in awareness of universal human rights where discrimination was called out for the bigotry that it actually is - one didn't have to 'move' under thinking discrimination was okay, it's harmless, everyone does it etc etc, bigotry however - calling it what it is - required a shift in thinking and then in resulting behaviours that is having a totally different effect/experience.

If one approaches life as the encompassing circle that it is - one approaches their food and their garden and their bodies and other species bodies differently - with awareness, with gratitude & generosity, one maintains balance in production and harvesting and acknowledges the circle of life and death of all species with regard and respect.

Pick a leaf that you will take into your own body - in a salad, or a tea, or by itself and honour it as one would if they were a Catholic receiving communion. The leaf is a living part of the entire ecosystem that sustains all of us, harmoniously in balance, or disharmoniously in imbalance. The quality of the experience of taking that leaf into our own bodies is dependent upon our awareness and our honesty about what the experience is.

That's what our interactions with everything is - communion.

Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Enlightened2B wrote:Question for Eric and Onceler, can you guys tell me what the difference between Qigong and tai chi is and how it differs from yoga as well? And which practice you would recommend?

Thanks

That's kind of a complicated in answering this. Some say that Qigong is where Tai Chi is derived from, but this would most likely pertain to Taoist Qigong. There is also Buddhist Qigong as well. The movements of Qigong IMO are simpler than Tai Chi and Tai Chi is also an actual martial art, while Qigong is often used in healing (although Tai Chi can do the same).

I am not that experienced with Tai Chi, but I do know that in Qigong there are movements, breathwork (dan tien), standing meditations, and physical knocking along the body with either the fist or side of the hand along with pressure points along the meridians. Tai Chi and Qigong are also more with Eastern Asia.

Yoga is from India (western Asia) and differs in Qigong as it has asanas or certain postures. While there are standing Qigong styles such as Zhan Zhuang, Qigong is usually a flow of movements that flow with the breath. Yoga also flows in certain ways, but also tends to hold postures while breathing through the posture. Of course there is meditation along with pranayama breathing. Prana and Chi are usually condsidered the same thing.

But that is also an over generalization as there are many many styles and techniques of Qigong, Tai Chi, and Yoga. Which one to recommend? I can't really recommend one in particular. I think Qigong is easier to learn than Tai Chi, and I also incorporate some Yoga postures into my practice. I think it is a personal preference.

I've taken classes for Qigong, but have not for Yoga or Tai Chi. A really good beginners video for Yoga IMO is Yoga Zone's "Yoga for Beginners". There is a good video on Youtube for Qigong called, "The Ten Symbols of Longetivity", but there really is no substitute for an actual teacher on learning how to due the movements or postures properly while breathing properly to get the maximum benefit.

Eric

Last edited by beginnersmind on Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

KB said: , QiGong has made me realize that our European culture has no native systems for movement-for-health.

.... dancing... freely dancing authentic movement to the music of instruments or nature. All throughout Europe the natives danced/dance.

So maybe it's not so much a limitation of native cultures, but limitations on them. Some folks started telling others what dancing 'is' and how it 'should' be etc etc Watch any two year old, they dance naturally. Then watch any teenager - if they're not drunk or stoned they're like robots. If you catch an adult dancing sober these days ... whooo hooo!!!

We used to walk on tracks and run in fields and bend and scoop and reach and pick and dig the earth etc as part of our daily lives.

When we stopped doing that someone decided they could make a tidy profit out of our need for exercise - hence gyms etc No different to cars, health care, education, food etc we only believe we need the 'middle men' and the admen and the money etc.

All that is true, and I said "systems." India and China both developed systematic programs of movement--yoga, qigong, tai chi--with very direct links between movements and health benefits. I don't think the West has come up with anything as systematized until modern gym exercises.

I think the west has come up with Pilates, Feldenkrais, and the Alexander Technique for self healing

Enlightened2B wrote:Question for Eric and Onceler, can you guys tell me what the difference between Qigong and tai chi is and how it differs from yoga as well? And which practice you would recommend?

Thanks

That's kind of a complicated in answering this. Some say that Qigong is where Tai Chi is derived from, but this would most likely pertain to Taoist Qigong. There is also Buddhist Qigong as well. The movements of Qigong IMO are simpler than Tai Chi and Tai Chi is also an actual martial art, while Qigong is often used in healing (although Tai Chi can do the same).

I am not that experienced with Tai Chi, but I do know that in Qigong there are movements, breathwork (dan tien), standing meditations, and physical knocking along the body with either the fist or side of the hand along with pressure points along the meridians. Tai Chi and Qigong are also more with Eastern Asia.

Yoga is from India (western Asia) and differs in Qigong as it has asanas or certain postures. While there are standing Qigong styles such as Zhan Zhuang, Qigong is usually a flow of movements that flow with the breath. Yoga also flows in certain ways, but also tends to hold postures while breathing through the posture. Of course there is meditation along with pranayama breathing. Prana and Chi are usually condsidered the same thing.

But that is also an over generalization as there are many many styles and techniques of Qigong, Tai Chi, and Yoga. Which one to recommend? I can't really recommend one in particular. I think Qigong is easier to learn than Tai Chi, and I also incorporate some Yoga postures into my practice. I think it is a personal preference.

I've taken classes for Qigong, but have not for Yoga or Tai Chi. A really good beginners video for Yoga IMO is Yoga Zone's "Yoga for Beginners". There is a good video on Youtube for Qigong called, "The Ten Symbols of Longetivity", but there really is no substitute for an actual teacher on learning how to due the movements or postures properly while breathing properly to get the maximum benefit.

Eric

This is fantastic Eric.

Thanks for the info.

I actually do hatha yoga already, although have been laxing a bit lately and have been considering a different practice for the most possible benefit and have seen a few people on this board recommend Qigong, so I was curious about it. The place I do yoga also offers Tai Chi and possibly Qigong.

I'm going to continue the yoga path for now and possibly look into Qigong in the near future. Thanks again

smiileyjen101 wrote:To excuse the 'superiority' & unfounded 'rights' of a person energising arrogance, as if it is ignorance (or pity not empathy, or bigotry not ignorant discrimination, or fear over a fright)- keeps them in the dark as to the difference. For me it would be like if say KB everyone pandered to you as 'shy', excused you and did not leave room for you to grow into who you really are - you would not have grown in awareness and in outer expression to be the more honest and wise and loving to self and others person that you are now.

I don't see it so much as 'excusing it' Jen, as much as simply understanding that many of us (myself for sure) have been there before (as the arrogant/ignorant) and sometimes, I still do, and it merely comes from a limited perspective of who you believe you are. Not that there is a 'wrong belief' (as whatever we believe ourselves to be, is ultimately who we are), but the more limited your perspective, the more limited your reality that you create and the less love you approach life with. That's what I call ignorance. Hence, the way I see it " "forgive them for they know not what they do" is not an implication that it's ok to abuse or be a bigot because you don't know any better. No, not at all. In my opinion, this does not at all mean we must condone abuse or bigotry, but it does mean that limited perspectives (which is really what bigotry is) stem from the ego, which we all have at one point or another and we can recognize this behavior merely as a form of ignorance stemming from the belief in separation.

It's not excusing someone for being ignorant or limited, (Meaning, we don't sit by and allow abusers and bigots to abuse and discriminate against us as we can absolutely put our foot down at our abusers as an act of love to them or put our foot down to bigotry or discrimination of course. We're not robots. We have that free will of course.) However, we can't run around saving the entire world from its limited views. The Universe and its expressions need to awaken on their own when they are ready. We can only do so much from our part of it.

Allowing humankind to think that their misuse of the other species that are interconnected and intelligent, dismissing the intelligence as if only human intelligence exists, is merely the human state, or ignorance is unkind to both humans and other species. (it's only an 'adopted' human ignorance and misuse - and it's only been adopted fairly recently in human evolution as we've moved away from and isolated ourselves from the natural world and we use excuses to do so.)

Well, oddly enough, this happens in spirituality too. Go take a look at the Direct Path teachings if you want to see real arrogance and see how many people believe that there is no world outside of their own human perception. Taking the direct experience of your human body/mind as the be all, end all, is also quite arrogant (and dangerous). This is the limited view it has defined itself as by one set of teachings which lead one to believe that only our human perception exists at all, while trees, rocks and everything else are merely literally just made up of our own human sensory (perception) which completely invalidates the very experience of a tree itself or anything in existence for that matter, outside of our human perception. That is the ultimate human arrogance. But, where does this form of arrogance stem from? Isn't this as well ignorance? Ignorance stemming from more belief. These people have convinced themselves that human perception IS the only form of consciousness. It's just another limited view created by more and more and more defining. Defining themselves by the limited direct experience of the (already) limited vehicle known as the body/mind which becomes just another belief ironically. It's ignorance in my opinion.

Enlightened2B wrote:Question for Eric and Onceler, can you guys tell me what the difference between Qigong and tai chi is and how it differs from yoga as well? And which practice you would recommend?

Thanks

Beginnersmind gave a great reply. I guess it's what you're looking for when you choose a practice. I like the moving meditative part of Qi gong and I think the movements are easier than tai chi. I don't have to think about it too much at this point, but I do have to pay attention. I use the exercises from Spring Forest qigong. I just think it's good to have a practice that is grounding and mindfull every day.....whether yoga, meditation, or qigong/tai chi.