I assume what he's asking is whether the proportion of adult males attracted to young boys vs. young girls matches the proportion of men attracted to adult males vs. adult females in the general population.

Interesting question. The one link suggests 1:11 vs 1:20 but it looks like the prior ratio is based on sex offenders only; one has to assume the number of cases reported, and the inability to control ones self are equal despite preference, etc. As with anything to do with sexual orientation, especially when the law is involved, the answer will always be marked with an asterisk.

I assume there is a commensurate number for females, but the vast majority of sex offenders tends to be male.

I thought I had read that applying "homosexual" to a pedophile is not really correct. Their issue is pedophilia and not homosexuality. Which is to say a male pedophile who abuses little boys does not identify as a homosexual.

I don't know about that, the ones that posted here seemed self-aware of their desire, and understood what it was. If anything they seemed to want to make sure the distinction was made between abusers/ rapists, pedophiles, and (H)ebephiles.
A pedophile is an accurate description for them, but there was always a distinction it seemed being made between one who has an attraction for young children and one who actually abused or harmed young children.

For what it's worth, the only thing of note we had to learn about in Psych class for pedophilia abusers was to make the distinction of their preference, as there was a correlation between preference and abuser style:
Those who chose only males- they tended to have a broader abuse pattern with many victims, and multiple abuses and incidents with various victims over time.
Those who chose only females- tended to abuse specific targets- they were more narrow in their focus- usually focusing on fewer victims but more incidents with the single child repeatedly.
Those who had no preference in their selection/chose both- they tended to abuse extremely younger children than the above two groups.

Those were the only things we were told to make a note of when taking a history of a person who has a history of acting on their pedophilia.

The implication pregnant in the OP is that because the greatest number of abusive pedophiles are men who abuse young boys, then they must be gay men who want to have sex with children. But in the absence of data, that's an unsupportable conclusion. Gay men like to have sex with men. Men and boys don't look or act like each other, so it is not necessarily the case that someone who is willing to "have sex with" (i.e., rape) boys also wants to have sex with men. (And indeed, AFAIK the data supports this -- of pedophiles who also have sexual relationships with adults, I believe they are typically heterosexual relationships. Of course, some of this may be "cover," like Humbert and Charlotte.)

But logic suggests that by far the most likely explanation is that pedophile males who are willing to rape children to satisfy themselves sexually will tend to have much more access to boys. Because a (male) youth pastor or scout leader or camp counselor can quite easily get himself into a position of trust which leads to unsupervised responsibility over a group of boys, but he would have almost no chance of similar access to girls. (The fact that children are less differentiated physically by gender might also mean that pedophiles are less picky about the sex of those to whom they are attracted, or at least are more willing to settle for whoever is available even if they are of the "wrong" gender.)

There are presumably studies of this stuff, but I'd expect them to be generally paltry for a number of reasons. First, they're inevitably case studies, because obviously you can't design an experiment where you give a pedophile access to both girls and boys and see how many of each he rapes. But more importantly child molestation is, for obvious and perhaps excusable reasons, not a subject that can be treated rationally. Pedophiles who don't rape children (probably the vast majority of them) don't tell anybody about it because they'd be demonized and hounded. So there's no easy way to get an idea of how many people are attracted to children but **don't ** act on it, whereas the pedophiles that you can identify (because they get caught) usually have incentives to shut up or to lie about their preferences and behaviors.

Someone who is attracted to young boys is not necessarily going to be attracted to adult men. If you define men who abuse boys as homosexual, then 100% of men who abuse boys are homosexual. That doesn't add much to the discussion however.

The reason the question usually comes up is around whether homosexuals who are attracted to adult men are more likely to abuse boys than those who are not attracted to adult men.

You wouldn't think so, but there seems to be a group of posters on SDMB who are unwilling to admit that (for example) that a man who sexually abuses only young boys is indeed (by definition) a homosexual pedophile---I think they are concerned that it will somehow lead to additional discrimination agains homosexuals, and so will not accept the rather simple fact that someone exclusively sexually attracted to the same sex (whether expressed in a consenting mature adult relationship OR in the pedophillic rape of a child) is homosexual.

Someone who is attracted to young boys is not necessarily going to be attracted to adult men. If you define men who abuse boys as homosexual, then 100% of men who abuse boys are homosexual. That doesn't add much to the discussion however.

100% of them are bisexual at the very least.

Quote:

The reason the question usually comes up is around whether homosexuals who are attracted to adult men are more likely to abuse boys than those who are not attracted to adult men.

The obvious answer is that they aren't. Little girls are abused just as often as little boys are, I believe.

Someone who is attracted to young boys is not necessarily going to be attracted to adult men.

The research is even stronger than that. Pedophiles who are attracted to young boys tend NOT to be attracted to adult men. Here's a link to a reference for a 1978 paper on the topic.

And the abstract:

"A random sample of 175 males convicted of sexual assault against children was screened with reference to their adult sexual orientation and the sex of their victims. The sample divided fairly evenly into two groups based on whether they were sexually fixated exclusively on children or had regressed from peer relationships. Female children were victimized nearly twice as often as male children. All regressed offenders, whether their victims were male or female children, were heterosexual in their adult orientation. There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males. The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male."

Yes it is. Terminology is important. Men who molest little girls would more appropriately be called male-female molesters. Homosexual heterosexual and bisexual are adult oriented sexualities.

This paper talks terminology a bit. The stated goal is to disprove myths about homosexuality and child molestation.

Quote:

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

From what I've read little girls are 2-3 times more likely to be abused.

Can I get a cite? I'd really like to rub this in the face of people who don't want gay teachers on the grounds that their boys will get diddled. Yes, I've learned in this thread that men who diddle boys are rarely attracted to adult men and so wouldn't identify as gay to begin with, but this seems like much more powerful evidence.

Can I get a cite? I'd really like to rub this in the face of people who don't want gay teachers on the grounds that their boys will get diddled. Yes, I've learned in this thread that men who diddle boys are rarely attracted to adult men and so wouldn't identify as gay to begin with, but this seems like much more powerful evidence.

Finally, a meta-analysis of 22 American-based studies, those done with national samples as well as local or regional representative samples, suggested that 30-40% of girls and 13% of boys experience sexual abuse during childhood[12]. An international meta-analysis of 169 studies found that lifetime prevalence rates of sexual abuse for females is 25% and for males is
8%. This same study found that rates for North America range from 15-22%[13].

I have known literally thousands of gay men over the years (decades), and there's a sort of commonality that virtually all of us share . . . it's a part of what is known as "gaydar," but it goes beyond that. It's something we subconsciously sense in each other's presence.

Many years ago I was briefly in contact with a group of men from NAMBLA . . . self-professed pedophiles. Not one of them struck me as being gay at all. They seemed like rather eccentric straight guys. And I remember the question asked, whether any of them were also attracted to adult men. None of them were, which didn't surprise me. Because of this experience, and other reasons, I cannot think of pedophiles as either heterosexual or homosexual. They're just pedophiles.

Many years ago I was briefly in contact with a group of men from NAMBLA . . . self-professed pedophiles. Not one of them struck me as being gay at all. They seemed like rather eccentric straight guys. And I remember the question asked, whether any of them were also attracted to adult men. None of them were, which didn't surprise me. Because of this experience, and other reasons, I cannot think of pedophiles as either heterosexual or homosexual. They're just pedophiles.

IMany years ago I was briefly in contact with a group of men from NAMBLA . . . self-professed pedophiles. Not one of them struck me as being gay at all.........

You have shared this bit of your insight before.
-----------------------
North American MAN-BOY LOVE Association. This is the name THEY chose for THEMSELVES .

With a name such as that, what a shocking stretch of homophobic fear-mongering that NAMBLA is indeed a homosexual pedophile's organization in the minds of 99%percent of the general public's collective opinion.

Your opinion as a gay man is not sacrosanct---NAMBLA is made up of self professed HOMOSEXUAL PEDOPHILES, even if that fact upsets you---PERIOD.

a man who sexually abuses only young boys is indeed (by definition) a homosexual pedophile

Only if you're defining "homosexual" rather loosely to mean "involving any form of sexual activity between members of the same sex".

More precisely, "homosexual" refers to an adult sexual orientation: homosexual attraction between adults, as other posters have pointed out, doesn't correlate at all significantly with sexual attraction to children of one's own sex.

To take a more extreme example, would you say that a man who engages in sexual activity (bestiality) with only male animals is a homosexual zoophile? I'd say no, he's just a zoophile (a male-male zoophile, if we want to be precise). Zoophilia and pedophilia are in some sense different categories of sexuality from ordinary adult sexual orientation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boytyperanma

Terminology is important. Men who molest little girls would more appropriately be called male-female molesters. Homosexual heterosexual and bisexual are adult oriented sexualities.

Right. If a heterosexual man sexually abuses a boy, it doesn't make him homosexual or bisexual: it makes him a pedophile in addition to being heterosexual.

Similarly, if a homosexual man sexually abuses a girl, it doesn't make him heterosexual or bisexual, but rather a pedophile (in addition to being homosexual).

Do homosexual men ever molest little girls? I've never heard of a situation where that's been the case.

I know of at least one bisexual (and psychopathic) offender who considered himself predominantly homosexual while incarcerated who was a nonexclusive pedophile who molested both male and female children, and was attracted to adults as well. He was an extremely unusual guy in many, many ways, though. Psychopathy and pedophilia is a rare and dangerous double whammy.

I don't know. Since there's a small but non-negligible minority of heterosexual men who molest little boys, it seems logical to me that there might also be some small minority of homosexual men who molest little girls.

However, as this analysis points out, it's hard to tell partly because studies of molestation often don't identify the adult sexual orientation of molesters. A man who molests a boy is often automatically assumed to be homosexual, while a man who molests a girl is automatically assumed to be heterosexual, even though their adult sexual orientations might be the other way around.

I know of at least one bisexual (and psychopathic) offender who considered himself predominantly homosexual while incarcerated who was a nonexclusive pedophile who molested both male and female children, and was attracted to adults as well. He was an extremely unusual guy in many, many ways, though. Psychopathy and pedophilia is a rare and dangerous double whammy.

Yeah, but that means he was sexually interested in everything under the Sun. My question was specific.

I wish some of the SDMB's pedos would jump into this thread. I have questions, damn it!

You have shared this bit of your insight before.
-----------------------
North American MAN-BOY LOVE Association. This is the name THEY chose for THEMSELVES .

With a name such as that, what a shocking stretch of homophobic fear-mongering that NAMBLA is indeed a homosexual pedophile's organization in the minds of 99%percent of the general public's collective opinion.

Your opinion as a gay man is not sacrosanct---NAMBLA is made up of self professed HOMOSEXUAL PEDOPHILES, even if that fact upsets you---PERIOD.

You seem to have an agenda. Do you think that if you call pedophiles homosexuals then you can justify discriminating against homosexuals that are not pedophiles? I have an idea, maybe you can get together with your neighbors and contribute money to influence an election in California.

There's a part of my brain that tells me it makes sense to call members of NAMBLA gay. I mean, come on. They're sexually attracted to males.

Aren't some homosexual males only attracted to feminine men? Why isn't this just another qualifier? They're attracted to males- prepubescent males.

I'm really conflicted about how I should choose to label them.

And no, I don't have an agenda, as I think I proved in the thread about the gays being barred from prom. It just seems weird to not call it like it is. Almost like I feel we're not calling men who diddle boys gay because we're afraid that other people will make an unwarranted link between homosexuality and pedophilia.

You have shared this bit of your insight before.
-----------------------
North American MAN-BOY LOVE Association. This is the name THEY chose for THEMSELVES .

With a name such as that, what a shocking stretch of homophobic fear-mongering that NAMBLA is indeed a homosexual pedophile's organization in the minds of 99%percent of the general public's collective opinion.

Your opinion as a gay man is not sacrosanct---NAMBLA is made up of self professed HOMOSEXUAL PEDOPHILES, even if that fact upsets you---PERIOD.

This isn't the first time you've lashed out at me on this subject, and I have no intention of giving you a further opportunity to do so. You obviously have some personal issues here, and I'd rather not get involved.

This isn't the first time you've lashed out at me on this subject, and I have no intention of giving you a further opportunity to do so. You obviously have some personal issues here, and I'd rather not get involved.

Sometimes people in cloistered communities where they are expected to marry young have little opportunity to explore their "interests".

There's a part of my brain that tells me it makes sense to call members of NAMBLA gay. I mean, come on. They're sexually attracted to males.

Aren't some homosexual males only attracted to feminine men? Why isn't this just another qualifier? They're attracted to males- prepubescent males.

I'm really conflicted about how I should choose to label them.

That's understandable: our society tends to assume that anything related to same-sex sexual activity automatically falls into the category "homosexual". When we hear of a straight man raping a boy, we don't think "oh, he's a pedophile", we think "oh, he's a pedophile and he's secretly homosexual", or "bisexual".

Just like we tend to assume that pre-op MTF transsexuals are "really" homosexual men because they were born with boy bits, instead of being women with an anatomical mismatch between their brain structure and their genitals and hormones. We just automatically make the association that any erotic combination of the form Penis + Penis = Homosexuality, even if the underlying psychology and neurology is actually more complicated than that.

We're starting to get used to the idea that gender identity is biologically and psychologically more complicated than the simple fact of what organs you're born with. Likewise, we're starting to get used to the idea that sexual orientation is more complicated than the simple fact of what organs you like to put your organs next to.

There do seem to be some important differences, on average, in the psychological functioning of normal homosexual men compared to men (homo or hetero) who are sexually attracted to boys. Sure, there's a continuum in this as in pretty much every other manifestation of sexuality, so that there are some men attracted only to boys and some men attracted only to adult males and some men attracted to both. But in general, the gender of an abuse victim isn't a totally reliable guide to the sexual orientation of the abuser.

Which is why, if you're looking for a label, "male-male pedophile" or "male-male sexual abuser" is technically more specific and accurate than "homosexual pedophile".

Many years ago I was briefly in contact with a group of men from NAMBLA . . . self-professed pedophiles. Not one of them struck me as being gay at all. They seemed like rather eccentric straight guys. And I remember the question asked, whether any of them were also attracted to adult men. None of them were, which didn't surprise me

panache, were those the dudes who were into little boys rather then older teens? I did think that studies have shown that most same sex perpetrators of little boy molesation were hetro.

Almost like I feel we're not calling men who diddle boys gay because we're afraid that other people will make an unwarranted link between homosexuality and pedophilia.

In the scientific research on the subject researchers are very specific in their terminology because there is a 'unwarranted link between homosexuality and pedophilia'. Many people in our society believe all homosexuals will molest children if given the opportunity.

Heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual are simple bad terms to use to describe instances of child molestation.

This excerpt brings up some of the Kinsey research where they found most men who molest boys describe themselves as heterosexual.

A big problem inherent in surveying for this question is since sexual behavior between adults and children is a crime, very few adults who haven't been "caught" are going to be willing to be open to taking a survey, so the population surveyed is going to involve a subset of the real population, and who knows if the population of "caught" child molesters is in fact representative of child molesters in general?

I remember reading somewhere that some time ago, perhaps the 1970's, a law enforcement agency sent out pedophila surveys as a fishing operation. This one guy filled out the survey and said that he liked little girls but that he wasn't currently involved with any, and well, the police harassed him for years trying to nail him with something.

I wanted to make the point that pedophiles who abuse boys aren't necessarily gay in the usual sense (that they'd be sexually attracted to adult men over adult women) . . . but I think that's been pretty well covered above.

Let me just add though that in many cases child molesters were molested themselves as children, which is how they got so screwed up to begin with. It may very well be that a man starts molesting boys because he's acting out the abuse that he experienced himself as a boy. But had that same man never been abused, he might have gone on to only have sexual relationships with adult women.

Basically if you define "has sex with underage boys" as "gay" (a definition I disagree with), there's not much else to say . . . but I think it's important to understand that how one gets to be gay (entirely biology, in my view) and how one gets to be a pedophile (abuse, in many cases) are very, very different.

Of course not all pedophiles were abused themselves, but a lot of them were. And certainly people who have been sexually abused as children become pedophiles at a much higher rate, especially if they've never received appropriate treatment. (I don't have a great cite handy for thus because I'm paraphrasing stuff my wife has told me -- she is a therapist for victims of child molestation.)

Of course not all pedophiles were abused themselves, but a lot of them were. And certainly people who have been sexually abused as children become pedophiles at a much higher rate, especially if they've never received appropriate treatment.

Oh that's true.....and I know that Skeptic magazine "debunked" it by saying that the pedos were lying.
However, I think there's something there.....I mean for example it's very common for women and girls who have been sexually attacked/raped to sexually act out to try to "heal"
It's the same thing......the victims of child molestation feel helpless b/c someone manipulated their emotions, so they think that if they do that to a kid, they'll heal.

Oh that's true.....and I know that Skeptic magazine "debunked" it by saying that the pedos were lying.
However, I think there's something there.....I mean for example it's very common for women and girls who have been sexually attacked/raped to sexually act out to try to "heal"
It's the same thing......the victims of child molestation feel helpless b/c someone manipulated their emotions, so they think that if they do that to a kid, they'll heal.

Yeah, and just to add to that point, there's more here than just adult pedophiles offering that up as an "excuse" after they got caught . . . A lot of kids who have been or are being molested act out against other kids when they're still kids themselves. That's sometimes the first indication that a kid is being molested, when they try to act out something sexual with another kid. (To be clear, I mean much more than just the "Wanna see my peepee" thing that I think is a phase a lot of kids go through when they're discovering their bodies.)

So given that this is well-documented behavior for kids who've been molested, it shouldn't be too surprising that the ones who don't get caught and receive help early persist in that behavior into adulthood, even growing more bold about it.

That's to say nothing of the cases where abuse actually happens within families and is passed on from generation to generation. I know someone through my wife* who as a young child was the victim (along with her brothers) of abuse (sexual and physical) from her father and grandfather, until she finally told someone at school and both father and grandfather ended up going to jail. Given that the grandfather was involved, it's hard to imagine the father wasn't also abused as a child (and god knows how far back it extends).

eah, and just to add to that point, there's more here than just adult pedophiles offering that up as an "excuse" after they got caught . . . A lot of kids who have been or are being molested act out against other kids when they're still kids themselves. That's sometimes the first indication that a kid is being molested, when they try to act out something sexual with another kid.

Yes. In all liklihood the majority of pedos are former kids who were molested but never got treated.
Now here's a question. I know that acting out sexually for molested kids is very common......but how do you differentate between kids who were molested and are just acting that out, vs someone who is a budding sociopath?
I know someone who was "gang molested" I know the molester, and I remember getting the vibe that he was kind of creepy while growing up. (like Stepford Wives creepy, meaning he faked it well, but underneath he was really creepy)

Unlike some of the posts ignorantly assume, heterosexual pedophyles (heterosexual men who sexually offend against pre-pubescent children) do not only offend against girls, homosexual men don't just offend against boys, and biseuxal doesn't offend against both. Heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexualism are labels identifying sexual preferences in adult relationships. However, you are asking what are the incident rates of homosexual men versus hetersexual men offending against pre-pubescent boys.

First, pedophylia is a term applied to sexual offenders (SOs) who sexually offend against pre-pubescent children (typically children, boys in this case, age 11 and under).

Second, hebephilia is a term applied to SOs offending against minors that have already past puberty (typically after age 11).

Lastly, pedohebephilia is for offenders who offend both age ranges.

As for pedophylic men who offend against boys, the overwhelming majority of offenders identify as heterosexual men (I know, surprising, but true). However, when you talk about hebepholic men, it shifts to more homosexual men offend against post-pubescent males (older than 11).

In short, to answer your question (although I do not remember the exact numbers):

AMONG MALE PEDOPHILES WITH MALE VICTIMS, THE MAJORITY ARE HETEROSEXUAL MALES. **no guarantee, but I seem to recall it is in the mid/high 60 range, 65-68%**

AMONG THE MALE HEBEPHILES WITH MALE VICTIMS, THE VAST MAJORITY ARE HOMOSEXUAL MALES.

To make it simple, sexual orientation does appear to "match" with victim sex/gender in offenses against post-pubescent minors (typically those over 11 years of age). Which makes sense IF you know the pathways and causes for hebephilia.

However, pedophiles do NOT match their sexual orientation in their victim selection since the larger majority of pedophiles who have offended against boys are heterosexual men (and this is also true for female victims, heterosexual men comprise the larger majority of offenders in this group also). Again, this makes sense if you know the reason/pathways/causes for pedophilia.

FYI - I know all of this b/c my MA is in Forensic Psychology and I specialized to become a Licensed Sex Offender Treatment Provider (LSOTP) and took graduate courses in Sex Offending Theory and Treatment.

So don't listen to INGORANCE from those who only "guess" their way through things; otherwise, they would still be telling you the sun revolves around the earth.