Let me start this by saying that suicide black has always been my favorite archetype ever since the hay days of magic. There is just something about playing an under-costed threat off of a dark ritual that appeals to me like nothing else. When I first came to the lucky frog I met Anwar, who shared my love of the archetype. Anwar's red death became a natural choice for me to pick up and play and it remains one of my favorite decks to date. And then tarmogoyf came around, and just ruined phyrexian negator's day left and right. Red removal was no longer sufficient and not playing tarmogoyf was just asking to be outclassed in the combat phase. So, work began on a suicide black deck that splashed green. I played a version of Eva Green that abandoned the idea of going for the throat that also ran jitte maindecked, dark confidant, and tombstalker. The deck was good but did not play out the way I wanted it to in many matchups, most notably against control. I did realize one thing though: tombstalker was absolutely nuts. Over a series of PM's Anwar eventually sends me a shell of the deck that goes back to the very aggressive, tempo driven game plan of red death. Snuff out was determined to be tempo on steroids, and the tombstalker count (which started at 1) eventually went up to 3, and then 4 at the suggestion of Alix Hatfield. Eventually we develop this version of Eva Green, with some help from the rest of the NoVA crew:

This deck has done phenomenally well in testing and took me to a top 4 finish this last weekend at the Winter Wonderland legacy event. The tournament report can be found here. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8189).
Zuhair (Zulander) also piloted the deck to a 9th place finish, and Alix Hatfield (Obfuscate Freely) top 2'd the legacy side event with it. I believe this to be the natural evolution of suicide black.

Card explanations:

Tarmogoyf: Essentially better than phyrexian negator in every way, this guy is the most efficient beater in the game. A good mix of instant/sorcery/creature/land/enchantment assures he will be very big most of the time.

Tombstalker: This guy is a house in Eva Green. All of your fetchlands pretty much count as 2 mana towards his cost, and ritual counts as 4 towards him. He essentially has a mana cost of 1BB in this deck consistently, but I have powered him out on turn 2 a few times. He gets around pernicious deed, black based removal, explosives, and he flies. Completely amazing here. He rarely conflicts with tarmogoyf being able to grow in size and in some
situations lets you have the option of shrinking your opponent's tarmogoyfs in a bind. Remember, you can delve for more than 6 cards.

Nantuko shade: One of the few creatures that can get in a fight with tarmogoyf and win, shade can end games very quickly and becomes very hard to deal with as the game goes on. An excellent threat and can turn late game rituals into giant growths.

hypnotic specter: Smaller than every other creature in your deck but still great. He helps you lock down combo decks, is bad news for control, and is great against aggro as well. With ritual he is very dangerous and I have never been disappointed with him.

The creatures in Eva Green are great both early on and late in the game.

Dark ritual: Still busted as ever, it shines even more with the addition of tombstalker.

thoughtseize: Best black disruption in magic, B to pre-emptively answer anything is pretty sweet. The life loss has not been an issue at all and I cannot stress how powerful this card is. Duress is nowhere near as good.

hymn to tourach: The other hand disruption spell to thoughtsieze, it's just as good as it ever was. You can win games with this card alone and it helps keep your opponent stumbling for answers to your giant threats instead of playing their own game against you.

Sinkhole: Red Death was all about tempo, and Eva Green takes that statement to the next level. This card's role is two fold: create tempo so you are doing more than your opponent can do/answer in the early game, and shut off your opponent's answers/threats by branching off a color of mana. Combined with wasteland and hymn it is a devastating attack on your opponent's manabase and sometimes can simply win games on it's own through complete resource denial.

Snuff Out: Simply the best removal spell you could ask for in a tempo-driven deck, in a format full of big green creatures. This spell allows you to play a removal spell AND a threat/disruption spell in the same turn very early in the game. Doing more than your opponent can do in the early game becomes a lot easier when your removal is "free". The life loss is rarely an issue in such an aggressive deck and this spell can be hard cast later in the game without the drawback.

Seal of Primordium: A debatable slot in the deck, seal has proven itself in testing especially against control decks like landstill, decks with counterbalance, and cards like aether vial in goblins or artifact mana that mitigate your land destruction strategy. This card serves as a swiss army knife answer to whatever card (humility, solitary confinement,
vedalken shackles, etc.) your opponent may have that breaks you, and especially shines against standstill by pre-emptively answering it. When your opponent has no targets for it it still at the very least fuels stalker and goyf. Very rarely a dead draw.

Board choices:

Choke: With so much blue in legacy, and the addition of green, choke becomes a backbreaking card for decks like threshold (especially when they run top) and landstill. It helps keep mystic enforcer off the table against Uwg threshold and makes the U/w landstill matchup much better. Supplemented by land destruction this card causes many headaches for blue magi.

Leyline of the Void: My personal yard hate of choice, this card could very well be yixlid jailer, tormod's crypt, or perhaps even extirpate. I will leave the debate to the specific card choice out of this but I do feel this slot should be dedicated to hating the graveyard.

Engineered plague: Not just brought in against goblins, but clearly very strong in that matchup. This card also helps against combo tremendously while also being very good against a surprising number of decks.

Umezawa's Jitte: Absolutely one of the most underrated and underplayed cards in legacy. That being said, in addition to being poor against control, in the main deck it is simply too slow and opens you up to your opponent's removal robbing you of your hard-earned tempo. However, against many decks this card will simply win games. You also have 8 evasive creatures to wear it, increasing its effectiveness. A very powerful tool out of the sideboard and helps you against decks that will try to race/burn you out of the game. I have been very happy with jitte in the board of suicide black style decks and it is just as good here.

Now on to a few matchups. I don't have percentages for you but I will try to narrate based on my experience playing against the decks.

CONTROL/AGGRO CONTROL

Landstill:

Depending on the build, this matchup can either be heavily in your favor or quite close. Four color landstill tends to be alot easier as tombstalker cannot be killed by pernicious deed, and their manabase is so disruptable. Blue/white landstill however runs wrath of god in addition to swords to plowshares, and has a much more stable manabase. Any way you slice it your goal here is to disrupt them and drop a huge threat, repeating as necessary. With builds running pernicious deed do not be afraid to drop a tombstalker in addition to another threat as they cannot 2 for 1 you. Be more careful when facing wrath effects, obviously. Dropping seal as early as possible is a very strong play as it stops standstill from activating and burying you in removal and countermagic. Post board gets more ugly for them as choke is a huge kick in the balls, especially alongside sinkhole and wasteland. I consider this a favorable matchup in general for Eva Green.

Threshold:

The results against threshold will vary greatly based on the build, but in general you want to see the black version sitting across the table from you as their removal is usually dead against you. Confidant can still be a pain but they have no way of dealing with a resolved tombstalker. The red version is pretty good as snuff out hits everything they play aside from mongoose, but be careful not to let your life total dip too low as they can burn you out. White seems to be the version I fear the most simply because of swords to plowshares and mystic enforcer being pretty much gg if he hits and they are in any position to stay alive. Any version running counterbalance will be annoying, although your removal and half of your threats evade it. Seal is huge here as if they get counter top online early things will be grim. Post board you get to bring in choke, which is very strong at both neutering counterbalance/top and at preventing finishers like mystic enforcer from ever coming down. Jitte can also be brought in and is a strong option, but the boarding plan will vary depending on the build you are facing. This matchup will usually be close as threshold seems to find whatever they need at the worst possible times, but you have a lot of very powerful tools against them. Black threshold seems to be favored, red is favored to even, and white may be slightly unfavored, but like I said it will usually be very close.

COMBO DECKS

Cephalid Breakfast:

This is the main combo deck you will be favored against in legacy. Snuff out is very good at stopping both the cephalid/nomad combo and at the goyf/nought backup plans. Thoughtseize is great, and if they don't get vial into play or you have seal for it your LD will be painful for them as their manabase is not very robust. Rip combo pieces or search out of their hand early and go for the throat. Post board you have 15 relevant cards to bring in, but I find that bringing in 4 plagues for 4 sinkholes and 4 leyline/jailer for 3 seal and 1 tombstalker to be my plan of choice. Plague can name wizard to cut off confidant and illusionist, and leyline forces them to find bounce before going off, which is usually enough time for your other disruption to grind them down. This deck can still just win out of nowhere though, so play tight even though you may feel very favored.

Storm combo (Belcher and TES namely):

Belcher is not the best matchup for eva green because the deck can go off before you have any say in the matter, and it loves to see a lack of blue on the other side of the table. However, if you win the die roll a single hand disruption spell may be enough to slow them down long enough for hymn and huge creatures to finish them. Post board you get plague to answer etw and the matchup becomes a bit better, especially as you know what they are playing and can mulligan accordingly to a hand that breaks them. TES tends to be a bit better as the deck does not tend to go off before you get a turn, and your hand AND land disruption hurts them. Hypnotic specter is very good here as he will probably get a chance to actually swing in when backed up by early disruption and keeps them from recovering. The deck can still top deck artifact mana and then infernal tutor or IGG, but seal helps to stop them from winning that way. A difficult matchup to play against but your disruption is still strong here. You might want to consider boarding in leyline or crypt if you run it to stop the gains loop, but always bring in plague to stop warrens tokens.

Dredge:

I'm not going to lie, this is probably not a deck you want to be facing in a tournament with Eva Green. Game 1 you pretty much have to race them and hope they don't dredge well. Snuff out on one of your own tarmogoyfs can sometimes help against bridge from below but that play is less than ideal. I'm sure it's no more than 20/80 pre-board. That being said you do have some powerful hate post-board in the form of leyline of the void/yixlid jailer, engineered plague, and umezawa's jitte. On the play I leave in thoughtseize, to be able to sometimes nab chain of vapor with a leyline in play, and take out hymn, sinkhole, and snuff out (leaving in seal to deal with needle on jitte). On the draw you may want to consider taking out thoughtseize over snuff out due to the bridge-removing potential and ability to kill a large troll, but that's your call. If you expect a decent showing of friggorid at a tournament yixlid jailer may be a better option than leyline of the void in the board, although it does have a weakness to cabal therapy that leyline tends to avoid.

Survival:

Depending on the build you will probably have a very rough time against survival decks. Welder survival is probably the best matchup as it plays more like a disruptable combo deck than an aggro/control deck against you, but builds like RGBSA are a pain to play against. Your best bet is attacking their manabase and winning on the back of an early game tempo boost or riding a tombstalker to victory. If they have answers to stalker you might be up shit creak if you let them get going. Sinkhole and wasteland are great here, and don't be afraid to use snuff out on first turn birds of paradise. Post board you actually take out seal of primordium as it is the most likely card to be dead against them, and you bring in umezawa's jitte that allows you to achieve an overwhelming board position before they get the engine online.
I am about 50/50 against survival in tournament play, but the build will dictate whether or not you are favored or the lowly underdog here. This is a matchup that is worth playing a few times in order to solidify what choices you should be making in the early and mid game and what hands you should be keeping or mulling.

Goblins:

Ah yes, the matchup I loved to see when I played Red Death. With Eva Green it's not much different. This deck is amazing against goblins. While they can sometimes hit with a lackey on the play, and while snuff out isn't the greatest of removal options against them, every single creature in your deck is supurb against them and your disruption is very effective. Being able to nail vial with seal is an added boon with this build and makes
your sinkhole/wasteland plan that much more devastating against the mana hungry goblins deck. Tarmogoyf will get out of control very quickly and can more often than not wind up as a 6/7 in this matchup (although still great as a 3/4) and hypnotic specter is very underrated here. Post board it's unfair. Four engineered plagues and 3 umezawa's jittes go in for the seal of primordiums and sinkholes, as going after their manabase is the
weaker option when you can just make sure none of their creatures can stay in play. A favorable matchup to say the least.

That's all I have for now, trust me when I say that this deck is a hell of a lot of fun to play and a very strong choice to take to a high level legacy tournament.

LordEvilTeaCup

01-07-2008, 08:32 PM

This deck looks pretty hot. Has there been any issues with the lack of Bob? I know you can't run Bob as it is, due to you running 4 Stalkers. Perhaps the advantages of Stalker outweighs anything Bob could bring in this case. Still, I would like more info and thought processes on the decision to not include Bob.

pooispoois

01-07-2008, 08:33 PM

This might be a really messed up suggestion, but have you thought about running Dark Confidant? I've been a Suicide Black player for a very long time and this guy still wins me games I have no business winning. You have Tombstalker at 8 mana, but still, with the following modifications,

-3 Seal of Primordium
-4 Snuff Out

+4 Dark Confidant
+3 Slaughter Pact

You end up with a ~1.5 cost average, which is hardly terrible (and you cut the life loss from Snuff Out, which is somewhat incompatible with Dark Confidant). Of course, Slaughter Pact isn't Snuff Out, and in this case other options like Vendetta and Smother might be more appropriate than Slaughter Pact. Also, in a build with Confidant, it might be benefitial replacing Thoughtseize with Cabal Therapy (Dark Confidant and Cabal Therapy with some other cheap creatures is a very neat package, and once again you might need to relief some life loss in order to run Confidant).
Having this in mind, I suggest this untested hypothetical build:

Also, have you ever thought about running Negator in addition to your current beaters? I don't think you need that many fatties, but it could replace Nantuko Shade in some weird (read: lots of combo and few Tarmogoyfs) metagames.

EDIT: Sarnath'd

rsaunder

01-07-2008, 08:48 PM

You know, after I played you I drew up a quick declist to play around with, based on what I'd seen of yours and I was WAY off. I guess I just tried to make it look like Ale with goyfs:tongue:

In any case, I really don't think negator is necessary. He's a fatty but he's also a liability when he needs to go up against opposing goyfs.

Bob+Stalker would probably turn out a lot like it did in deadguy when I was testing it: with you dead. Even with two MB stalkers I took more than a few hits for lots of damage. Couple this with thougtseize and everyone and their mother running 4x goyf and you're dead too frequently. I do agree that it seems like there ought to be some sort of library manipulation, I had top in my list but it hardly goes with your huge emphasis on tempo, which, let's be honest, is what the deck is all about. So I don't know, results don't lie, maybe no manipulation is needed?

LordEvilTeaCup

01-07-2008, 09:00 PM

So I don't know, results don't lie, maybe no manipulation is needed?

Red Death also ran no deck manipulation as well. Well since this deck is super tempo, why no Chrome Mox? Your discard spells become dead mid game if you happen to draw a mox late. I think it is at least play test worthy.

zulander

01-07-2008, 09:10 PM

Bob is very bad in this deck. The original version had 3 bobs and EE in it but bob was cut and the deck became faster and much more consistant. If you enjoy bob's I'm sorry but this isn't the deck for you. We also thought of adding in other cards similar to bob (nights whisper etc..) but to be honest drawing cards is great and all but not at the cost of playing a larger threat or disruption. The only changes that should be made in the deck is either -1 swamp + 1 bayour (not a big deal at all) or -3 seal + 3 other disruption (crime/punishment or putrefy or EE etc...).

AnwarA101

01-07-2008, 09:26 PM

An excellent writeup on the deck. I'm really glad that nitewolf9 decided to write an in-depth introduction. The origins of this deck are very interesting. Dan (nitewolf9) sends me a pm awhile back saying let's work on a Suicide deck. I tell him Tarmogoyf killed Red Death and well we should just play Threshold. He suggests that we should try to incorporate Tarmogoyf into Suicide. At this point, I'm thinking we are just working on a weaker version of Threshold.

But we go back and forth on some emails and his original list which he played at the TML 3 has both Dark Confidant and 1 Tombstalker. I never liked Confidant in the list and suggest that maybe we can play more Tombstalkers maybe even 3 or 4. Nitewolf9 continues to play this new build at our local tournaments and just keeps making T4 like its his job.

Finally, I would like to say that nitewolf9 deserves a great deal of credit for the deck. I feel like I was along for the ride helping where I could (kind of like playing guitar when the guy next to you is playing bass). His persistence to keep working on a Tarmogoyf based Suicide deck and for giving it simply the best name I could have ever come up with. Check out my avatar if you are wondering who Eva Green is.

zulander

01-07-2008, 09:35 PM

Check out my avatar if you are wondering who Eva Green is.
Don't worry. After I'm done with the finishing touches on my report everyone will know who she is :P

Bovinious

01-07-2008, 09:37 PM

Don't worry. After I'm done with the finishing touches on my report everyone will know who she is :P

I just saw Anwars avatar and put the "finishing touches" on myself if yall know what I mean...the only thing that bothers me is that shes French (at least according to Wikipedia), but I suppose hawtness knows no ethnicity, or something like that.

nitewolf9

01-07-2008, 10:28 PM

I just saw Anwars avatar and put the "finishing touches" on myself if yall know what I mean...the only thing that bothers me is that shes French (at least according to Wikipedia), but I suppose hawtness knows no ethnicity, or something like that.

Yeah, her ethnicity is irrelevant. The genes are obviously of the highest quality. Oh, and Anwar brought up that her character also commits suicide at the end of Casino Royal...kind of appropriate here I think :cool:

As for Bob I think the explanations are given as to why the deck does not run him. You could try a similar list with bob and a few modifications but I think it would just be a different deck. I know people go back and forth about him but let's just leave it at that. It seems that every suicide thread spends about 3 pages arguing about dark confidant.

LordEvilTeaCup

01-07-2008, 10:36 PM

I hate to repeat myself, but what about the mox? Has it already been tested and then discounted? If so, I am curious for the reasons. That really is the only question I have for the build. Turn 2 Hyppies are strong, turn 1 sink/hymn without any rit support is not too shabby as well. Get rit and mox together... well you can have some insane plays. Moxes do lend to more inconsistency and card disadvantage, but it just creates devastating plays.

AnwarA101

01-07-2008, 10:44 PM

I hate to repeat myself, but what about the mox? Has it already been tested and then discounted? If so, I am curious for the reasons. That really is the only question I have for the build. Turn 2 Hyppies are strong, turn 1 sink/hymn without any rit support is not too shabby as well. Get rit and mox together... well you can have some insane plays. Moxes do lend to more inconsistency and card disadvantage, but it just creates devastating plays.

This is what I think of Chrome Mox

Do not play any artifact mana such as Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, or even Mox Diamond. These cards dont have the impact that Dark Ritual has and usually cost you an additional card. These artifacts are either simply too costly (Chrome Mox), unworkable (Mox Diamond) or just worse than Dark Ritual (Lotus Petal).

I think this still holds for Eva Green and its even worse as it puts two less cards in the yard for either Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. It seems very suboptimal.

I hate to repeat myself, but what about the mox? Has it already been tested and then discounted? If so, I am curious for the reasons. That really is the only question I have for the build. Turn 2 Hyppies are strong, turn 1 sink/hymn without any rit support is not too shabby as well. Get rit and mox together... well you can have some insane plays. Moxes do lend to more inconsistency and card disadvantage, but it just creates devastating plays.

I think Anwar hit the nail on the head with his explanation. Chrome mox is just too costly and also strictly worse than ritual here. I've considered lotus petal, which I feel is probably better than mox due to the fact that you don't lose a threat/disruption when you play it, but even then it didn't seem to do enough.

Machinus

01-07-2008, 11:07 PM

I'm still wary of the Seals but great job! I know one person who is thrilled that this deck even exists.

Bovinious

01-07-2008, 11:10 PM

On an related note, I liked how you guys waited until after I traded my Sinkholes to Zuhair and then made another viable Sui deck after Goyfs slaughter of Red Death :(

zulander

01-07-2008, 11:11 PM

On an related note, I liked how you guys waited until after I traded my Sinkholes to Zuhair and then made another viable Sui deck after Goyfs slaughter of Red Death :(

Lol, what sucks is that I sold the 3 sinkholes that I got from you since I had no use for them.

Bovinious

01-07-2008, 11:16 PM

Lol, what sucks is that I sold the 3 sinkholes that I got from you since I had no use for them.

What also sucks is that I was all "foil Mind's Desire, TIME SPIRAL!!!, ME WANTY!!!" Im sure there were tons of other cards involved but knowing me they werent playable, just cool looking, which Im fine with actually. I still kept that one "fake" Sinkhole, Im gunna get it checked out one day...

LordEvilTeaCup

01-07-2008, 11:33 PM

I think Anwar hit the nail on the head with his explanation. Chrome mox is just too costly and also strictly worse than ritual here.

I meant with Dark Ritual, so its ok if it is strictly worse. Still, yours and Anwar's argument definitely holds. I like it in my Sui Black build, but its a totally different deck, no gofys, and I have Bob to make up for the card disadvantage. Sniff, this deck makes me a sad panda because I don't have near the cards to play it... Oh well, I guess its Sui Black for dinner again.

Slayer001

01-08-2008, 05:24 AM

What about krosan grip instead of Seal, they are somewhat thesame but I like the grip better but don't know why. it cost one mana more but it has split second, so no top in responce searchinf for stifle or brainstorm for stifle to stifle the seal. But I'll try this list out definately with both options, I loved Sui black and I will also love this one. time to get some changes in my B/g sui deck

zulander

01-08-2008, 06:36 AM

What about krosan grip instead of Seal, they are somewhat thesame but I like the grip better but don't know why. it cost one mana more but it has split second, so no top in responce searchinf for stifle or brainstorm for stifle to stifle the seal. But I'll try this list out definately with both options, I loved Sui black and I will also love this one. time to get some changes in my B/g sui deck

Krosan Grip is normally better than seal, however you can't preemptively cast Krosan Grip if you have the mana open, you have to play it in response. The nice thing about seal is that if you play it before they play standstill they will have to remove it first before trying to resolve a still.

Arsenal

01-08-2008, 09:30 AM

I see many positives to Seal in this particular deck, although Grip's split second trumps Seal's ability to (a.) feed Goyf, (b.) play on turn 2, then no commitment afterwards, (c.) play as a proactive removal spell essentially, and (d.) fit in this deck's ultra low mana curve. Grip is just that good.

I can definitely see how awesome it'd be to cast turn 1 Thoughtseize (snatching FoW), then turn 2 Seal if you're playing against a Standstill player, but it doesn't always happen like that. Also, against Thresh, they're very good against defending early, and I'd like to topdeck a Grip over Seal if they've already gotten CounterTop online, active Shackles, etc.

In almost every situation other than you being on the play and casting Turn 1 disruption, Turn 2 Seal, Grip is better at getting you out of a tight spot if your opponent happened to topdeck and play a bomb (Engineered Explosives, Deed, Counterbalance, Shackles, Survival, etc).

True, Grip is more reactive and costs 1 more mana, but the ability to play it in response and it almost being guaranteed to resolve is huge in combating Sui's inherent weakness; artifact & enchantment removal.

C.P.

01-08-2008, 10:03 AM

A very good build, Congrats.

What do you think of Cursed Scroll in place of Seal?

Arsenal

01-08-2008, 10:13 AM

It think too many decks are running enchantments/artifacts not to maindeck removal for it. One well timed Deed or E.E. or even Shackles can dramatically swing the game in your opponent's favor. You want to have a way out of every situation re: enchantments/artifacts. Green gives you that w/ Grip/Seal. The reason Cursed Scroll works in Sui Black is (a.) it gets around black hate, and (b.) Sui uses more utility creatures and less beef to win.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 10:26 AM

A very good build, Congrats.

What do you think of Cursed Scroll in place of Seal?

Thank you. I did consider scroll for a bit but it just seemed like it didn't do enough whereas something like seal of primordium could be very disruptive to a lot of decks in the format.

Cavius The Great

01-08-2008, 10:45 AM

Nightwolf - Do you ever run out of steam with this deck? You have no Bob or Cursed Scroll which means no way of generating extra card advantage.

Shawon

01-08-2008, 10:50 AM

Yeah, someone uses Snuff Out!! Granted, I mainly advocated its use because it dodges Counterbalance, but also, it's damn cheap!

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 10:53 AM

Nightwolf - Do you ever run out of steam with this deck? You have no Bob or Cursed Scroll which means no way of generating extra card advantage.

Not really, the threats in the deck are very good on their own and very hard to deal with when being hit by disruption. It seems that my opponents would be struggling to deal with tombstalker while their hand/land was being blown up, would finally do it, then I'd drop a tarmogoyf. Then they'd finally answer goyf and I'd drop shade, etc. The deck does not win by putting more cards in your hand than your opponent, it wins by abusing early game tempo and playing very hard to deal with threats. Bob does not swing through anything and I don't like holding back just to draw extra cards when my opponent could be setting up wrath/shackles or counterbalance, for instance.

Edit: I have not dismissed scroll, I just think seal is a better call right now.

Tacosnape

01-08-2008, 12:50 PM

Um. Grip versus Seal shouldn't be a debate. Good decks run good cards, and Krosan Grip is a much better card than Seal of Primordium.

Afro

01-08-2008, 02:34 PM

I really like this deck! I plan to play this soon at the next big legacy event I head to. The only change I would/will make is the switch from Seal to Grip. In my eyes the match up where it means the most is def thresh with their Counterbalance engine and that deck runs stifle which totally owns the seal. The list just looks so elegant. I am drooling to play this damn thing.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 02:40 PM

I really like this deck! I plan to play this soon at the next big legacy event I head to. The only change I would/will make is the switch from Seal to Grip. In my eyes the match up where it means the most is def thresh with their Counterbalance engine and that deck runs stifle which totally owns the seal. The list just looks so elegant. I am drooling to play this damn thing.

I would recommend it, it is definitely lots of fun. As far as seal vs grip, I stated in the description my reasoning for running seal. I think that slot is pretty open, though, so grip may be just fine. Crime/punishment is also a consideration I am making for some metagames, and pithing needle may actually be good here as well.

zulander

01-08-2008, 02:45 PM

I'm also considering running Sylvan Library in that spot to help out the draws later on. Seems much better than confidant.

Happy Gilmore

01-08-2008, 03:01 PM

Um. Grip versus Seal shouldn't be a debate. Good decks run good cards, and Krosan Grip is a much better card than Seal of Primordium.

Do you actually believe the garbage you say? There are valid reasons to run one over the other. And there are good reasons why Seal is better than Krosan Grip in Eva Green.

1. Seal spells in general are very good in decks that intend to use most of their mana during their own turn.

- between sinkhole, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Shade (activations), casting creature spells and wasteland (using up land drops) Eva Green has little opportunity to leave 2G open during the opponents turn. Why do you think Eva Green runs Snuff Out? Seal is run for the same reason, so Eva Green can maximize the use of the main phase.

Saying Eva Green instead of "the deck" is much more entertaining :tongue:. If only Eva Green played magic.

Arsenal

01-08-2008, 03:10 PM

Do you actually believe the garbage you say? There are valid reasons to run one over the other. And there are good reasons why Seal is better than Krosan Grip in Eva Green.

1. Seal spells in general are very good in decks that intend to use most of their mana during their own turn.

- between sinkhole, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Shade (activations), casting creature spells and wasteland (using up land drops) Eva Green has little opportunity to leave 2G open during the opponents turn. Why do you think Eva Green runs Snuff Out? Seal is run for the same reason, so Eva Green can maximize the use of the main phase.

Saying Eva Green instead of "the deck" is much more entertaining :tongue:. If only Eva Green played magic.

But you're (a.) relying on resolving a Seal before your opponent can resolve his bomb enchantment/artifact, (b.) relying on the Seal activation not being Stifled, and (c.) having Seal do what it was actually intended to do; stop enchantments/artifacts from being effective (this doesn't always happen due to responses to Seal activation). Grip doesn't care at all about these conditions that Seal, in order to match Grip's ultimate effectiveness, needs to meet. Grip is also a much better topdeck than Seal, especially if a Shackles/Deed/EE/Moat/etc slipped through your moderate discard suite (LD vs. Thresh and Landstill usually is not effective in the long run).

Like nitewolf said, he considers that 3x Seal slot to be a meta slot. If you see a lot of Landstill/MUC/Thresh, Grip would be better. If all you're using Seal for is to pop your opponent's equipment, then Seal would probably be the smarter choice. Overall, Grip > Seal. And in this deck, even with it's desire to use the main phase every turn, Seal only is equal to Grip if it meets certain game-state requirements and conditions; Grip does not carry any game-state requirements other than having 2G available.

zulander

01-08-2008, 03:17 PM

How about this, if you want to play seal play seal, if you like grip play grip. If you like Braids, Cabal Minion play Braids, Cabal Minion.

URABAHN

01-08-2008, 03:40 PM

Like nitewolf said, he considers that 3x Seal slot to be a meta slot. If you see a lot of Landstill/MUC/Thresh, Grip would be better. If all you're using Seal for is to pop your opponent's equipment, then Seal would probably be the smarter choice. Overall, Grip > Seal. And in this deck, even with it's desire to use the main phase every turn, Seal only is equal to Grip if it meets certain game-state requirements and conditions; Grip does not carry any game-state requirements other than having 2G available.

I can say with 100% certainty that you're wrong about Grip > Seal in Eva Green in a (BHWC)Landstill/MUC/Thresh Meta. I've been bent over the barrel more times than I care to remember playing BHWC Landstill against this deck in a effort to help Dan and Anwar make the choices on which they're decided. The beauty of Seal of Primordium against all 3 of those decks is that Seal becomes a "fire and forget" card. You play it and it's there for whenever you want it. Quite often, that's the right play when you're playing Eva Green. Landstill won't play Deed unless they can immediately activate it for two, Landstill will rarely play a Standstill until they can remove Seal, same goes for ***** decks running Counterbalance. MUC usually runs EE and Powder Keg as removal and Seal of Primordium can usually destroy those cards before they can be activated to remove one of Eva's creatures. I'm not sure why y'all are so high on Krosan Grip in this deck, maybe Virginia is missing something and it needs to be investigate further, but against those decks, Seal is more excellent than you give it credit for.

But you're (a.) relying on resolving a Seal before your opponent can resolve his bomb enchantment/artifact, (b.) relying on the Seal activation not being Stifled, and (c.) having Seal do what it was actually intended to do; stop enchantments/artifacts from being effective (this doesn't always happen due to responses to Seal activation).

Arsenal, you can always resolve a Seal after one of those "bomb enchantment/artifact". Speaking of which, why would drawing it after something like

Grip is also a much better topdeck than Seal, especially if a Shackles/Deed/EE/Moat/etc slipped through your moderate discard suite.

be so terrible? Krosan Grip may be a better topdeck because it's uncounterable, but you're still not going to be able to play Krosan Grip on Deed or EE if they activate before passing priority. In the case of Shackles and Moat, there's nothing wrong with playing Seal after those cards have resolved. Krosan Grip may be uncounterable and Seal can be Stifled, but I don't think that means Krosan Grip is "much better".

(LD vs. Thresh and Landstill usually is not effective in the long run)

That certainly depends on the Landstill and Thresh build. If either build is running a bunch of Basic land, then you're probably right, but if you're playing a bunch of non-Basics, you'd better believe Eva Green will feast on your manabase and disrupt you long enough to win. But LD strategy against Landstill and ***** probably reserved for a different time and place. I will say that Deadguy, Red Death, and Eva Green have seen plenty of success by disrupting Lands and Hands.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 03:57 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that you're wrong about Grip > Seal in Eva Green in a (BHWC)Landstill/MUC/Thresh Meta. I've been bent over the barrel more times than I care to remember playing BHWC Landstill against this deck in a effort to help Dan and Anwar make the choices on which they're decided. The beauty of Seal of Primordium against all 3 of those decks is that Seal becomes a "fire and forget" card.

I think that sums it all up nicely. "Fire and forget" is the perfect term for it.

Arsenal

01-08-2008, 04:49 PM

@URABAHN

How is drawing and playing your Seal a good play when your opponent has an active CounterTop? How is playing and resolving a Seal, only to have it Stifled when your opponent drops his Shackles, a good play? We could go on forever with examples of how Grip > Seal or Seal > Grip (with more examples for the former), but this was my ultimate point; Seal is far more dependant on game-state requirements to be effective, while Grip has ZERO game-state requirements for it to be EQUALLY effective.

Also, you claim that you can always resolve a Seal after your opponent has played their bomb enchantment/artifact. An active CounterTop says otherwise. Also, who says that your Seal will even see play if you're playing against blue-based control and traditional counters?

Deep6er

01-08-2008, 04:58 PM

I would like to point out that if the Threshold deck DOES play Stifle, how is Seal a better target than say a Wasteland, or a hit from a Hyppie? Or, if it IS Threshold, usually Stifle is used early to counter Fetchlands. I don't even remotely understand the unreasoning fear of Stifle. First off, why are you even worried about it? Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Hypnotic Specter all do a fine job of keeping annoying enchantments/artifacts off the table, and should one stick, it's still troublesome dealing with the things that you can't stop (i.e. Tombstalker vs. Counterbalance, or Tarmogoyf vs. an unpowered Shackles). Seal is better in this deck than Grip. I would recommend taking us at our word for the time being, while you test it out yourselves. Sure, there will be times where you really wish it was Grip, but there are also going to be times when the reverse is true. Honestly, Dan and Anwar put so much work into this deck that I'd at LEAST give them the benefit of the doubt. How about we give that a try?

zulander

01-08-2008, 05:05 PM

Honestly, Dan and Anwar put so much work into this deck that I'd at LEAST give them the benefit of the doubt. How about we give that a try?
No.

Also, I think this deck needs more confidants. He's amazing card advantage. Also, have you tried smother/Ghastly Demise in place of snuff out?

Afro

01-08-2008, 05:11 PM

No.

Also, I think this deck needs more confidants. He's amazing card advantage. Also, have you tried smother/Ghastly Demise in place of snuff out?

I can tell with no testing confidant does not belong. I would take Tombstalker over him ANY day in this type of deck. A resolved Confidant puts ZERO pressure on your opponent and just draws you into more disruption or more 2/x's. A resolved Tombstalker says answer me now or lose.

This deck is fucking sexy.

zulander

01-08-2008, 05:15 PM

I can tell with no testing confidant does not belong. I would take Tombstalker over him ANY day in this type of deck. A resolved Confidant puts ZERO pressure on your opponent and just draws you into more disruption or more 2/x's. A resolved Tombstalker says answer me now or lose.

This deck is fucking sexy.
Just play both. Replace snuff out with smother/ghastly demise or even chainers/diabolic edict(for pesky mongeese) and the damage will be fine I think. Anyone else agree with me??? I think we should test it out.

Afro

01-08-2008, 05:18 PM

Just play both. Replace snuff out with smother/ghastly demise or even chainers/diabolic edict(for pesky mongeese) and the damage will be fine I think. Anyone else agree with me??? I think we should test it out.

As someone who used to play Spoils Belcher a lot, even I don't have the balls to play Confidant so I can double Fireblast myself when I flip a Tombstalker. Also what would you cut?

zulander

01-08-2008, 05:20 PM

As someone who used to play Spoils Belcher a lot, even I don't have the balls to play Confidant so I can double Fireblast myself when I flip a Tombstalker. Also what would you cut?

-1 goyf, -1 shade, -1 stalker, -1 hyppie. With the card advantage he brings it's like you're playing 4of's of every card in your deck anyways.

Deep6er

01-08-2008, 05:32 PM

-1 goyf, -1 shade, -1 stalker, -1 hyppie. With the card advantage he brings it's like you're playing 4of's of every card in your deck anyways.

Goddammit I hate you. Listen Afro, don't bother arguing, he's joking. However, Zuhair often forgets that nobody likes him or bothers to try to read his tone. Mostly he tries to forget that no one likes him. :)

EDIT: Now he's going to say that he's not joking. Don't believe that either. He's just being stupid.

EDIT2: Dan/Anwar, what matchups exactly do the Jittes shine in? Random Aggro? Don't you beat them? I think that those are questionable slots. Also, I would like to say that I think Jailer is slightly better than Leyline in this deck. Two reasons: Jailer plays better with Ritual, and Jailer attacks. Just my opinion, but I would like clarification on the Jitte.

zulander

01-08-2008, 05:44 PM

Goddammit I hate you. Listen Afro, don't bother arguing, he's joking. However, Zuhair often forgets that nobody likes him or bothers to try to read his tone. Mostly he tries to forget that no one likes him. :)
I was just playing devil's advocate. Some people don't realize that some cards don't belong in a deck until they see how ridiculous some posts seem.

Jitte comes in against aggro decks, not random watchwolf.dec. So it comes in against chalice decks and others like goblins/survival.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 05:47 PM

No.

Also, I think this deck needs more confidants. He's amazing card advantage. Also, have you tried smother/Ghastly Demise in place of snuff out?

Stop throwing kerosene on an already out of control blaze.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 05:50 PM

EDIT2: Dan/Anwar, what matchups exactly do the Jittes shine in? Random Aggro? Don't you beat them? I think that those are questionable slots. Also, I would like to say that I think Jailer is slightly better than Leyline in this deck. Two reasons: Jailer plays better with Ritual, and Jailer attacks. Just my opinion, but I would like clarification on the Jitte.

Jitte mainly shines against a deck like survival, and is generally an awesome card. It may be an issue that it is "just a good card that should be there with creatures" without the overwhelming goblins presence. If I were to change this slot I think it should be something that is either a bomb against survival or against threshold. Dystopia immediately comes to mind.

Edit: However, the versatility of jitte is not to be scoffed at. It comes in against dredge as well and can solve many issues on it's own against a plethora of random stuff that always shows up at legacy tournaments. But my previous statement applies, survival seems to be a bigger beating than it should be.

Bovinious

01-08-2008, 05:56 PM

No.

Also, I think this deck needs more confidants. He's amazing card advantage. Also, have you tried smother/Ghastly Demise in place of snuff out?

I cant tell if youre being sarcastic or not.

SpatulaOfTheAges

01-08-2008, 05:58 PM

This deck is indeed sexy.

Seal > Grip, overall.

Grip gets through counters. So what? You're not afraid of counters in this deck. If they're in a position where you're afraid of them countering your enchantment/artifact removal, you've all ready lost. And that's the only advantage the card has over Seal. So pft.

P.S. I'm insulted you forgot the Enchantress match-up.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 06:03 PM

This deck is indeed sexy.

Seal > Grip, overall.

Grip gets through counters. So what? You're not afraid of counters in this deck. If they're in a position where you're afraid of them countering your enchantment/artifact removal, you've all ready lost. And that's the only advantage the card has over Seal. So pft.

P.S. I'm insulted you forgot the Enchantress match-up.

Many apologies, I will have to modify that at some point.

Deep6er

01-08-2008, 06:16 PM

Jitte mainly shines against a deck like survival, and is generally an awesome card. It may be an issue that it is "just a good card that should be there with creatures" without the overwhelming goblins presence. If I were to change this slot I think it should be something that is either a bomb against survival or against threshold. Dystopia immediately comes to mind.

Edit: However, the versatility of jitte is not to be scoffed at. It comes in against dredge as well and can solve many issues on it's own against a plethora of random stuff that always shows up at legacy tournaments. But my previous statement applies, survival seems to be a bigger beating than it should be.

I understand your point, but would something... I don't know... "bombier" be better? Just for EXAMPLE (again, this is an EXAMPLE), something like Nether Void is an absolute BEATING against some decks and would complete crush their strategy. Just to reiterate, that was an example. Not a suggestion. I understand how "bomby" Jitte is, but I just feel that there's something better out there. What matchups is Jitte supposed to influence? Perhaps with a bit more data, we can come to a better conclusion.

zulander

01-08-2008, 06:23 PM

What matchups is Jitte supposed to influence? Perhaps with a bit more data, we can come to a better conclusion.

Jitte comes in against aggro decks, not random watchwolf.dec. So it comes in against chalice decks and others like goblins/survival.

nitewolf9

01-08-2008, 06:27 PM

The thing is, I think Dave is probably right here. Now that I know what matchups may need a bit more help (survival, and even some builds of threshold could be better), the slot may have a better option. Chalice aggro dies to snuff out pretty badly, talk about tempo loss on their part. We might have been tunnel visioned and ignored the facts that a.) goblins doesn't really show up en masse anymore (and the deck already smashes them) and b.) random aggro is not that bad, especially decks like zoo with HORRENDOUS manabases.

AnwarA101

01-08-2008, 07:46 PM

Seal of Primordium is sparking such a huge debate perhaps I can add some insight since I was the person who suggested the card to nitewolf9 in the first place. First off, I didn't want to run anymore possibly dead removal such as Vendetta, Smother, Edict, Demise, etc. The question becomes what do you do with the 3 remaining slots in the deck. I wanted that slot to be a versatile answer that something the deck couldn't already handle.

Enchantments and Artifacts have in general been the bane of Suicide decks (especially mono-black). I never considered Krosan Grip. The first reason is that it costs 3 mana which is a lot for a tempo hungry deck. The second is that it is by its nature it is a reactive card something that often can cause you to keep mana open for and makes you pass the turn when you really want to drop Hyppie or Stalker. It really goes against what you really want to do which is play disruption and guys. Seal by comparison costs 2 mana and is proactive. You don't need a target for Seal and you can drop it at any moment you have 2 mana to spare. Lastly, is that in a pinch you can pump Tarmogoyf or even put another card in the yard for Stalker. I'll concede this isn't very good, but its not bad considering the card can be dead in certain matchups.

As for Jitte, its a useful card in combating aggro strategies in general. Suicide decks in the past at least have struggled in matchups where your opponent could generate a quick board presence (Zoo, White Weenie, Sligh, Stompy, etc). It was very useful in Red Death in combating those strategies and is useful against other types of decks as well such as Ichorid and Survival.

This deck is fucking sexy.

This deck is indeed sexy.

Reminds of the scene where Eva Green is wearing that black dress in Casino Royale.

JDunkin00

01-08-2008, 07:46 PM

I just started testing this deck yesterday and I must say I totally love it over it's red death counterpart. I totally agree on jitte but for those who can't let it sit in the side run a couple random maindeck. As far as Dark Confidant I am on the fences in T2 we ran him with hit/run and thats is very similar to the tombstalker debate. Sometimes self inflicted damage is worth the win, no?

Deep6er

01-08-2008, 07:52 PM

As for Jitte, its a useful card in combating aggro strategies in general. Suicide decks in the past at least have struggled in matchups where your opponent could generate a quick board presence (Zoo, White Weenie, Sligh, Stompy, etc). It was very useful in Red Death in combating those strategies and is useful against other types of decks as well such as Ichorid and Survival.

Yeah, but Tarmogoyf invalidated those strategies. Since you run Tarmogoyf, the only creature you have to fear from them is Tarmogoyf. See the problem? I think Jitte is unnecessary, simply because Tarmogoyf is so much better than the decks that Jitte is suppose to be good against. Honestly, I would just play Reanimate or something like that. Tarmogoyf is the MOST IMPORTANT CARD in that matchup. Thus, bringing back yours, or stealing theirs, will seal the deal in the same way that Jitte would, while also allowing you to have flexibility against Control decks or even Reanimator decks (Lol, discard Akroma, steal Akroma). I'm just saying, I think that unless you can show me a deck that can consistently beat Eva Green that is both popular and helped immensely by the presence of Jitte, I think it's irrelevant.

Slayer001

01-09-2008, 06:14 AM

I'm testing both seal and grip and in some matchups the grip is better especially when countertop is active. The seal is better for the race you can pin it down when you can't pin down any other beaters or something else. Seal does its work also to trinisphere's and chalice if they are not at two before you can play the seal, grip has to be used on the opponents turn which you will need to keep mana open for like earlier mentionned and effects your tempo if you could play something more aggresive like a hippie or shade or something. But i'll keep continuing to test both.

Snuff Out hurts much against aggro and then you take it out for Jitte it is not useful against decks that run tombstalker (pox, mirror) or confidant because of the nonblack clause. I would try Diabolic edict and snuff out together as a split but only to try.

enemyofarsenic

01-09-2008, 06:19 AM

how does this deck fair against chalice aggro? (dragon/fairie stompies)...

zulander

01-09-2008, 08:30 AM

Tarmogoyf is the MOST IMPORTANT CARD in that matchup.
I don't he is, imho Tombstalker is. However playing something like unearth might not be a bad idea, it essentially allows you to run 19 creatures and cycle in a pinch if it's dead. However, in our metagame this might not be a problem, going up to NY Jitte > reanimate spells due to the amount of survival played. Having a Magus of the Moon resolve shuts you off from Tarmogoyf, thus Jitte allows you to effectively run 7 MD removal spells. And against that matchup, or even aggro loam, being able to strap up a Jitte on a hyppie/stalker will usually seal the game whereas reanimate/unearth will just add another soldier to the ground war. I hope you get the point I'm trying to make.

nitewolf9

01-09-2008, 10:20 AM

how does this deck fair against chalice aggro? (dragon/fairie stompies)...

All your threats are either as big or bigger than theirs, and you run snuff out. Kindof sucks to invest mana into a threat, into a piece of equipment, then into equipping, only to have that creature snuff'd out in response for ZERO mana to the equip when you had dropped a threat or a disruption spell on that same earlier turn.

Arsenal

01-09-2008, 10:31 AM

All your threats are either as big or bigger than theirs, and you run snuff out. Kindof sucks to invest mana into a threat, into a piece of equipment, then into equipping, only to have that creature snuff'd out in response for ZERO mana to the equip when you had dropped a threat or a disruption spell on that same earlier turn.

I think he meant how this deck operates when Stompy variants gets their Chalice/Trinisphere online before you've had a chance to seriously wreck house. Not so much the creature/threat aspect, but the disruption aspect. Chalice for 2 looks to shut down a lot of this deck.

nitewolf9

01-09-2008, 10:37 AM

I think he meant how this deck operates when Stompy variants gets their Chalice/Trinisphere online before you've had a chance to seriously wreck house. Not so much the creature/threat aspect, but the disruption aspect. Chalice for 2 looks to shut down a lot of this deck.

Look, if they do something like turn 1 trinisphere on the play then turn 2 arc slogger or whatever, then you are in trouble. Name a deck in the format that isn't. Chalice for 2 can be annoying but you have a lot of disruption that stops that from coming down early on the draw (ritual -> hymn/sinkhole, thoughtseize, wasteland...), and even that doesn't shut down your creature removal and tombstalker. From playing against dragon stompy I can say for sure that it is generally a favorable matchup. Trinisphere isn't even all that bad for you unless they get it REALLY early and drop a big threat before you can.

Edit: Chalice aggro decks also tend to lack a lot of consistency, and your disruption is usually even more devastating here. I always liked Anwar's analogy of fairy stompy: "They are dancing near a cliff, all you need to do is push them off".

Slayer001

01-09-2008, 03:35 PM

I have just beat the hell out of a dragon stompy deck and won with 2-1

it went like this

game1:
turn 1: ritual--> hippie
he chalice for 1 with ancient tomb
turn 2: nantuko shade, attack with hippie
he plays a jitte
turn3: beat with shade for 5 and hippie
he plays a morph (gathan raiders prob)
turn 4: beat with shade and hippie, he takes all dmg
he plays anonther morph and a powder keg
turn5: I beat with hippie and shade, he double blocks shade, I snuff out one blocker and pump shade with rest of my mana and he scoops

game 2:

he killed me with a 9/9 double striking pit dragon, that was realy fast

game3:
I started with a swamp --> thougtseize choosing his trinisphere
he plays a mountain
turn2: I played a bayou and sinkhole
He plays another mountain
turn 3: I play Hippie
he plays city of traitors and ends his tun
turn 4: I beated with hippie
he plays mountain, seething song --> pit dragon and powder keg, eot I snuffed out his dragon.
turn5: I wasted his city, and beated with hippie and had enough cards in grave to play tombstalker for 2
he gets his powder ekg to 3 but it was alrdy over by then he blows up my hippie and I play a new one and he scoops. If he could resolve a trinisphere with mox and city he had in his starting hand it was alot harder for me

rsaunder

01-09-2008, 04:49 PM

The question of card quality and reach has come up a few times in here already, and I feel like I ought to chip in the few tweaks I've been messing around with. The deck's manabase has proven extremely strong, and of course, with me being me, I thought I ought to try and abuse it a little. I'm pretty convinced that if one was so inclined, they could change the manabase to include 2 Volrath's Stronghold by going -1 fetch, -1[other card, seal was my pick], without much loss in consistancy hitting BB by turn 2. Now, I'm not sure at all if this is even necessary, but it's worth some thought if you've been having trouble in the late game.

/my 2 cents

zulander

01-09-2008, 04:57 PM

The question of card quality and reach has come up a few times in here already, and I feel like I ought to chip in the few tweaks I've been messing around with. The deck's manabase has proven extremely strong, and of course, with me being me, I thought I ought to try and abuse it a little. I'm pretty convinced that if one was so inclined, they could change the manabase to include 2 Volrath's Stronghold by going -1 fetch, -1[other card, seal was my pick], without much loss in consistancy hitting BB by turn 2. Now, I'm not sure at all if this is even necessary, but it's worth some thought if you've been having trouble in the late game.

/my 2 cents
2 Stronghold + 4 wasteland = bad times for turn 2 hymn/sinkhole. The deck's mana base is fine, but if you're afraid of running out of threats then -1 waste +1 stronghold. I wouldn't recommend it though.

JDunkin00

01-09-2008, 05:34 PM

Trinisphere is a bigger threat than you think. Stopping early tempo by not playing multiple spells and neutering Dark Rit all together. Tombstalker is not the answer cause you cann't fill your grave without playing something. Going 1st will help alot. Chalice two also is quite painful for 1st or 2nd turn. Taco is right on with grip>seal all day long.

zulander

01-09-2008, 05:42 PM

If you face a lot of 3sphere/chalice decks then I'd definately recomend taking out the chokes or E.Plagues from the side and put in a set of grips.

URABAHN

01-09-2008, 06:09 PM

Trinisphere is a bigger threat than you think. Stopping early tempo by not playing multiple spells and neutering Dark Rit all together. Tombstalker is not the answer cause you cann't fill your grave without playing something. Going 1st will help alot. Chalice two also is quite painful for 1st or 2nd turn. Taco is right on with grip>seal all day long.

The question of card quality and reach has come up a few times in here already, and I feel like I ought to chip in the few tweaks I've been messing around with. The deck's manabase has proven extremely strong, and of course, with me being me, I thought I ought to try and abuse it a little. I'm pretty convinced that if one was so inclined, they could change the manabase to include 2 Volrath's Stronghold by going -1 fetch, -1[other card, seal was my pick], without much loss in consistancy hitting BB by turn 2. Now, I'm not sure at all if this is even necessary, but it's worth some thought if you've been having trouble in the late game.

/my 2 cents

Stronghold does not like delve.

Also, I ran a singleton in a white version of Red Death once, and it was not worth the trouble. I doubt if it is worth it in this version, either.

I was testing the deck with Scroll for 2 days, and I found it to be pretty decent. I see that the Seal is an excellent card, but Scroll also is a strong choice and should not be dismissed easily. I found Scrolls to be better in a janky meta.

I don't know what would be gained from this, I don't think the deck needs any alterations to accommodate this particular matchup. I'd rather test against something like survival, friggorid, or TES. Eva Green vs. Dragon Stompy seems to come down to the die roll and who has the most busted draws, only Eva Green has snuff out as a bomb.

URABAHN

01-09-2008, 06:49 PM

I don't know what would be gained from this, I don't think the deck needs any alterations to accommodate this particular matchup. I'd rather test against something like survival, friggorid, or TES. Eva Green vs. Dragon Stompy seems to come down to the die roll and who has the most busted draws, only Eva Green has snuff out as a bomb.

People seem to want to want to speculate about Trinisphere, Chalice, and Arc-Slogger vs. Eva Green. Why not give them what they want? Besides, isn't Dragon Stompy a (AT)(DT)(B)(W)(C)(LMNOP) or whatever?

Obfuscate Freely

01-09-2008, 07:41 PM

I tested Eva Green against Parcher's Dragon Stompy this past weekend after the Syracuse tournament. What I found is that Dragon Stompy's disruption package isn't well-tuned for fighting a deck like Eva Green, with a curve higher than one, a solid manabase with lots of basics, and multiple ways to answer both large creatures and equipment spells. Also, as nitewolf said, Snuff Out is an all-star in the matchup. I'd say we played at least ten games, and I know that Eva Green was solidly ahead, although we didn't keep an exact count.

Seal of Promordeum is fantastic against any Chalice aggro deck, and is almost certainly better than Krosan Grip, because it's cheaper to play. I don't think you guys are valuing that difference in mana cost highly enough.

@rsaunder: As part of a group of players here in NoVa who have been playing black-based decks since before the format-split, I would never drop below 17 black sources in a deck with Hymn and Sinkhole in it. We have all found that number to be the minimum, unless you want to spend all day mulliganing hands without two black sources in them.

Nihil Credo

01-09-2008, 08:25 PM

2 Stronghold + 4 wasteland = bad times for turn 2 hymn/sinkhole. The deck's mana base is fine, but if you're afraid of running out of threats then -1 waste +1 stronghold. I wouldn't recommend it though.

That got me thinking, even if you don't want the Strongholds it shouldn't hurt to add 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to the deck's mana base. Casting (and pumping) Nantuko Shade, Hymn, Specter, or Stalker with a Wasteland should save more games than you lose by getting Urborg randomly hated on.

Deep6er

01-09-2008, 08:30 PM

I don't know about that. Given black's recent surge in popularity, helping them hit ON-colored things with your help seems too dangerous than the alternative. I could be wrong, but it seems like it would be better to just have Basic Swamps.

nitewolf9

01-09-2008, 08:38 PM

Yeah, Urborg seems both unnecessary and additionally opens you up to wasteland more. However, if you are running a one of in suicide black it's probably not going to come up very much. Which makes me question why you'd want to put it in there in the first place. This deck is "consistency through 4-ofs", and I feel that anything in the deck that isn't either search-able through fetches or at least a 3 of seems like splitting hairs and may cause more harm than good.

Nihil Credo

01-09-2008, 08:51 PM

I'm just saying, have you ever had those "Swamp, Wasteland, Awesome BB cards" draws? Urborg makes them a keeper instead of a mulligan.

You should have mulliganed those hands. There are games lost because you only drew 1 black source and games where you lose because you drew too many lands. You can't just throw more lands into the deck without realizing how much you will dilute your game plan.

If Urborg is so good, why not play 3 or 4? Why just a 1 of?

Slayer001

01-10-2008, 05:32 AM

I would not recommend Urborg anymore, alot of decks are running black now for thoughtseize/duress/confidant and this will make it easier for them to cast them. But they will fetch underground sea/ scrubland so it wouldn't matter to much maybe. But as a 1 off it doesn't come up to much and what to cut for it, fetch not at all and wastelands are to good in this meta. If you cut basics you will have a more wasteland vunerable deck.

about the seal vs grip: the grip is better against countertop where seal is just nothing, the just tap top in response to put it on top of library. where grip just kills all. vs chalice aggro the seal becomes better if he lies down before chalice at 2 or 3sphere. else he can't be cast or will cost 3 also. I find grip alot better now, as I have played both of them in alot of matchups.

Deep6er

01-10-2008, 06:33 AM

Seal of Primoridium costs 2. Thus, putting a Top on the top of your library would not counter it. Even if you were suggesting using Seal on the Top that would be bad. There is the important part to consider in that Counter/Top is mana-intensive. With Wasteland effects, they may not have the mana active in order to look at and set up the top 3. Grip is terrible because it's so reactive. Keeping mana open is really difficult in this deck because of cards like Shade, and to a lesser extent, Tombstalker. That's why Seal is so good in this deck. It doesn't force a long term commitment.

Slayer001

01-10-2008, 06:54 AM

the counter everything with countertop nad what they can't they filter from their library to get it with top and grip is better in this matchup. if coutertop is active you don't have to play shade because he gets countered, only grip is an option then. And play shade afterwards. tombstaker doesn't bother unless they run tombstalker and top and balance, a deck I got against me that did pretty well on MWS

The better facts of seal are that it pumps goyf and can be played before you need to destroy an enchantment/artifact. And thats only good against some decks.

Anarky87

01-10-2008, 09:31 AM

Why is everyone so worried about CounterTop? Do you not play Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole, Waste? I keep seeing all these hypothetitcal situations where the opponent always has CounterTop to stop Seal...Why aren't you disrupting them before then? Ruling out random top decks, I don't think I'd worry too much about it as to include a completely reactive card in a proactive deck. And if they drop the engine against you, oh well, focus on winning; I hear Tombstalker is pretty good at breaking ground stalls.

I believe for this deck that Seal is the better choice. Grip is just too needy of what needs to happen in order to be cast, whereas Seal can just be dropped and forgotten about till needed.

zulander

01-10-2008, 10:14 AM

Honestly, if you have a lot of Counter-Top in your metagame, just use Krosan Grip. It's a free country.

Nihil Credo

01-10-2008, 11:11 AM

Edit: Ah, sorry, you meant urborg instead of the swamp. Still, what happens when they wasteland urborg?
If you played Wasteland first, that means you've fired off one of your BB spells already, so it's probably no more than annoying. If you went with Urborg first for a turn 1 play (more likely), then it's worse.

I agree that in heavily hate-on-nonbasic metagame Urborg's value decreases substantially. Still, in such a metagame one should wonder whether the green splash is worth in the first place.

You should have mulliganed those hands. There are games lost because you only drew 1 black source and games where you lose because you drew too many lands. You can't just throw more lands into the deck without realizing how much you will dilute your game plan.

If Urborg is so good, why not play 3 or 4? Why just a 1 of?
Legendary status. It's good, but not *that* good. You should only play multiples for a very good reason - such as Time Spiral block decks which ran Korlash along with a shit-ton of non-Swamp lands.

nitewolf9

01-10-2008, 11:19 AM

I agree that in heavily hate-on-nonbasic metagame Urborg's value decreases substantially. Still, in such a metagame one should wonder whether the green splash is worth in the first place.

It most certainly would be. Tarmogoyf is kind of good and the manabase is very stable as it is.

Legendary status. It's good, but not *that* good. You should only play multiples for a very good reason - such as Time Spiral block decks which ran Korlash along with a shit-ton of non-Swamp lands.

Once again, how is playing a one of going to affect enough games in this deck to make it worth it? It's probably going to screw you over or help your opponent as much or more than helping you in the games it does come up. Trying to fit in another non-basic simply because it might help some opening hands once in a blue moon, on the condition your opponent doesn't run wasteland/moon effects/sinkhole, does not seem optimum to me. In all honesty though, if you ran it as a one of you probably wouldn't notice any significant difference at all, so why bother?

Nihil Credo

01-10-2008, 11:44 AM

If you ran it as a 1-of you wouldn't notice a significant drawback, either. It's a small trade.

nitewolf9

01-10-2008, 11:45 AM

I guess we should probably just agree to disagree then, as I don't think it will be very much of an impact.

Ewokslayer

01-10-2008, 11:47 AM

Once again, how is playing a one of going to affect enough games in this deck to make it worth it? It's probably going to screw you over or help your opponent as much or more than helping you in the games it does come up. Trying to fit in another non-basic simply because it might help some opening hands once in a blue moon, on the condition your opponent doesn't run wasteland/moon effects/sinkhole, does not seem optimum to me. In all honesty though, if you ran it as a one of you probably wouldn't notice any significant difference at all, so why bother?

The difference between Urborg and a Swamp isn't relevant in regards to sinkhole.

Running a one of is fine and good (see Pendelhaven in Standard, manabase in Extended Doran) if there is no drawback.
Wasteland is still underplayed and would be targeting your bayous anyway.
Moon effects are annoying but probably not too bad as you should have used Urborg for its many effect (getting BB turn two off of a wasteland). Though losing the ability to cast a Hyppie Turn 3 could be an issue.
However, the bigger concern I feel are as follows.
1) the example hand of Urborg's power (2 land Urborg - Wasteland hand) is probably a mulligan anyway
2) The effect is symmetrical. You spend your early turns wasting/hymning/sinkholing them into mana screw then make sure they have no problem with black mana?

Honestly I don't see Urborg doing much of anything even when it is in your opening hand. Tomb of Urambi would probably have a better impact on games.

Lemuria

01-10-2008, 12:10 PM

I haven't seen a Suicide build so strong since Red Death. And this one here it's even strong then Red Death. I'll start building this inferno right now.

Anyway, isn't this idea original enough to be a contender in CaNG?

nitewolf9

01-10-2008, 01:29 PM

I think Ewok's points are very good about Urborg. My point about sinkhole is in the case that you think that hand is a keeper and they sink your urborg, then you have to find 2 black sources (if it had been a swamp it would have made you make the proper choice and mulled). It seems misleading and risky.

I haven't seen a Suicide build so strong since Red Death. And this one here it's even strong then Red Death. I'll start building this inferno right now.

Anyway, isn't this idea original enough to be a contender in CaNG?

I have considered making this as my CaNG submission (since Anwar is a judge he wouldn't be able to anyway), but I don't know if it is an original enough idea like you said. And there seem to be quite a few awesome ideas that people are coming up with. Plus I don't like the idea of submitting this deck as my own idea as it was a joint effort.

Lemuria

01-10-2008, 01:33 PM

I have considered making this as my CaNG submission (since Anwar is a judge he wouldn't be able to anyway), but I don't know if it is an original enough idea like you said. And there seem to be quite a few awesome ideas that people are coming up with. Plus I don't like the idea of submitting this deck as my own idea as it was a joint effort.

That's up to the judges, but, considering that we have some Stax and Countertop builds there, I think this deck is original enough. Though similar, it plays a bit different then normal Suicide builds, that drops 1cc 2/2 fast and don't usually incorpores the Tempo abuse like this deck does, and, you already have the results in tournaments to prove that is so much viable.

EDIT: also worth mentioning that normal Sui builds loose to enchantments and arctifacts, and this one here does not.

Shawon

01-10-2008, 01:59 PM

But, before Eva Green, there was Green Death (Red Death minus Red plus Bayou and Tarmogoyf).

While I believe Eva Green has interesting card choices, I don't think it's original enough to make it to the CaNGD, as it still retains most of its core from Red Death, or Suicide Black or whatever.

Shtriga

01-10-2008, 04:35 PM

50% of the creature base is different from red death :P . IMO it's different enough to be considered another thing

most of the spell base is common with BW Pikula anyway and they're considered different decks as well

JDunkin00

01-10-2008, 06:51 PM

That's up to the judges, but, considering that we have some Stax and Countertop builds there, I think this deck is original enough. Though similar, it plays a bit different then normal Suicide builds, that drops 1cc 2/2 fast and don't usually incorpores the Tempo abuse like this deck does, and, you already have the results in tournaments to prove that is so much viable.

EDIT: also worth mentioning that normal Sui builds loose to enchantments and arctifacts, and this one here does not.

I agree totally. It is unique enough. Besides you swap a one shot 3 damage of red death to a mostrosity which is tarmogoyf. Nuff said.

zulander

01-11-2008, 12:16 AM

Dan post it, worst thing to happen is they say no.

Shawon

01-11-2008, 12:39 AM

I agree totally. It is unique enough. Besides you swap a one shot 3 damage of red death to a mostrosity which is tarmogoyf. Nuff said.
But that just means that Eva Green = a new spin on Red/Green Death or Suicide Black. Doesn't make it an originial deck.

Slayer001

01-11-2008, 04:58 AM

Hmm I don't know if it will be a CaNGD, it has some unique choices but a black sui deck with green splash for goyf has alrdy been played. and In my B/g Sui build I already had grips in my sideboard. Its a nice deck to play anyway.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 10:37 AM

Hmm I don't know if it will be a CaNGD, it has some unique choices but a black sui deck with green splash for goyf has alrdy been played. and In my B/g Sui build I already had grips in my sideboard. Its a nice deck to play anyway.

I don't think the deck lists in the "Green Death" thread are very similar to this deck at all. They don't seem very streamlined, run creature pump, and have interesting and different choices for their threat base, and some run dark confidant. This deck is structured way more like Red Death, which is the reason I don't know if it is original enough. Either way you slice it I am not too worried about it. I may have another CaNG submission anyway (if Deep6er can send me my write up I was working on on his comp....). You guys will like it.

Oh, and technically speaking I believe I was the first to post a B/g suicide list on this site (way before tarmogoyf). Just thought I'd throw that out there :smile:. P.S. The deck wasn't very good because it ran things like berserk and rancor instead of removal.

That looks fairly similar to Eva Green. There are some changes obviously (disenchant effects, MD Jitte v. SB Jitte), but [U]fundamentally the same. Also, if you mix and match parts of others' decklists in Green Death, you do get Eva Green minus Tombstalker. Not every single Green Death thread ran Rancor/Berserk. And if you feel that Tombstalker v. Prowler + Confidant (not locked in slots anyway) are enough to say that these are two completely different decks with no similarities, then I propose to create two seperate threads for mono-Sui Black; one for zombie builds and slightly less disruption, and the other for zombie-free builds, with slightly more beef and disruption.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 10:47 AM

And if you feel that Tombstalker v. Prowler + Confidant (not locked in slots anyway) are enough to say that these are two completely different decks with no similarities, then I propose to create two seperate threads for mono-Sui Black; one for zombie builds and slightly less disruption, and the other for zombie-free builds, with slightly more beef and disruption.

That might be a great idea. Mono black weenie and suicide black.

Lemuria

01-11-2008, 10:47 AM

The lack of Stalkers in that list makes it much, much inferior. Like Red Death, this deck is much more about tempo then CA, so, off with the Bobs.

zulander

01-11-2008, 10:49 AM

Ok how about this, if the site mods feel like they are similar then they merge the relevent posts and delete useless ones. I think the lists are very similar. MD pump is similar to MD jitte, which we've run in eva green.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 10:53 AM

MD pump is similar to MD jitte, which we've run in eva green.

That was a very different deck that also ran confidant. MD jitte in a deck like this is questionable. But I agree about just leaving this up to the mods. This is a very good build of B/g suicide and I thought it should have a thread of its own, considering how much work was put in to optimizing it.

Lemuria

01-11-2008, 10:58 AM

Yeah, I totally agree with both of you. The same way Red Death was treated as a different build from normal Sui, so be this one.

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:00 AM

That might be a great idea. Mono black weenie and suicide black.

I hope you're being sarcastic, because if you've read through the entire Suicide Black thread, then you'd know that it'd (a.) be redundant as both builds use 80% of the same cards, and they serve the same function (b.) cause more confusion than clarity as both builds are not FUNDAMENTALLY different enough to warrant two seperate threads and names, each one detailing essentially the same things/gameplan/card choices/matchups/etc...

I'm not knocking your deck, in fact, I like it. I just don't see the need for a whole new thread and moniker. Again, more confusion than clarity. I bet you my entire collection that if you had posted your decklist in the Green Death thread, NOBODY would have automatically said, "OMG, this is decklist has such drastic changes that it warrants a seperate thread!" Again, this is not a Mono-black control player posting his decklist in the Suicide Black thread (fundamentally different decks), Eva Green + Green Death are essentially the same deck, using 80% of the same cards (and the cards serving the same function/role), and having the same notion of disruption, tempo, swing w/ Goyf.

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:04 AM

Eva Green + Green Death are essentially the same deck, using 80% of the same cards (and the cards serving the same function/role), and having the same notion of disruption, tempo, swing w/ Goyf.
I concur. However I do appreciate that he created a new thread, because the "Green Death" thread, for lack of better words, had bad and unrefined lists.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 11:04 AM

I hope you're being sarcastic, because if you've read through the entire Suicide Black thread, then you'd know that it'd (a.) be redundant as both builds use 80% of the same cards, and they serve the same function (b.) cause more confusion than clarity as both builds are not FUNDAMENTALLY different enough to warrant two seperate threads and names, each one detailing essentially the same things/gameplan/card choices/matchups/etc...

I'm not knocking your deck, in fact, I like it. I just don't see the need for a whole new thread and moniker. Again, more confusion than clarity. I bet you my entire collection that if you had posted your decklist in the Green Death thread, NOBODY would have automatically said, "OMG, this is decklist has such drastic changes that it warrants a seperate thread!" Again, this is not a Mono-black control player posting his decklist in the Suicide Black thread (fundamentally different decks), Eva Green + Green Death are essentially the same deck, using 80% of the same cards (and the cards serving the same function/role), and having the same notion of disruption, tempo, swing w/ Goyf.

With that logic why even separate b/g suicide from mono b suicide, or red death from mono b suicide? 80% of the cards are the same, and all the cards serve essentially "the same function/role". Same strategy, very similar creature bases. The fact that one runs tarmogoyf and the other does not shouldn't be a big enough difference to make a new thread according to this argument. Why do Ugw/Ugr/Ugb ******** have different threads?

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:07 AM

With that logic why even separate b/g suicide from mono b suicide, or red death from mono b suicide? 80% of the cards are the same, and all the cards serve essentially "the same function/role". Same strategy, very similar creature bases. The fact that one runs tarmogoyf and the other does not shouldn't be a big enough difference to make a new thread according to this argument. Why do Ugw/Ugr/Ugb ******** have different threads?

Because of the color splash of course. If UWG Thresh introduced different on-color cards, I hope to god there wouldn't be 237837 new UWG Thresh threads, all with different names, but using 80% of the same cards in the original UWG Thresh build.

But see, that isn't the case here. There's no new color splash from Green Death. Just slightly different card choice.

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:08 AM

With that logic why even separate b/g suicide from mono b suicide, or red death from mono b suicide? 80% of the cards are the same, and all the cards serve essentially "the same function/role". Same strategy, very similar creature bases. The fact that one runs tarmogoyf and the other does not shouldn't be a big enough difference to make a new thread according to this argument. Why do Ugw/Ugr/Ugb ******** have different threads?
I don't think your argument is valid because in each case the lists run different colors. UGR thres is different than UGBW, red is much more aggro in style and the bw is more controlish. However, I do think the threads should be merged because they are BOTH theoretically the same deck. Black sui with green for goyf. However the differences come in card choices, not strategies.

Lemuria

01-11-2008, 11:18 AM

There are 2 differences between this deck and Green death that I see:

First: this deck has the ability to fight Chalices, Counterbalances, Moat, Elephant Grass, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Run a creature that evades and overseizes Goyf (Stalker), while the others Green Death doesn't do that. Instead, they run more low cost creatures like a normal Sui, only splashing green for the Goyf itself. Though some of them run Grip in the side, but still, it's quite different, as Eva Green puts much more pressure. I know it is that way, just like the advantage that Red Death has over the other Sui builds.

Second: This deck here has already proven it's strenght, by showing up results in tournaments, while the other thread about Green Death just speculates around the build.

So, I still keep my opinion, that this should be no comparison between this Thread and the other in the New and Developmental Forum.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 11:20 AM

Because of the color splash of course. If UWG Thresh introduced different on-color cards, I hope to god there wouldn't be 237837 new UWG Thresh threads, all with different names, but using 80% of the same cards in the original UWG Thresh build.

But see, that isn't the case here. There's no new color splash from Green Death. Just slightly different card choice.

Is adding a green splash for one creature significantly different enough to warrant a new thread? The decks (mono b and the green version in those threads) are basically identical save for one creature and maybe some sideboard choices. Let's make a new thread for Blue Death and change seal of primordium to stifle and tarmogoyf to negator (don't ask Anwar about that one though...sorry, couldn't resist :smile: ). That doesn't seem different enough to me. A new thread shouldn't be based on just having a different color, the fact is that this deck is a very refined, focused version of suicide black that looks unlike anything I've seen in those threads.

Edit: Very good point, the difference seems to be "new and developmental" and "established".

Edit2: Basically my problem is that you said a deck needs to be fundamentally different to be considered a different deck, but then turn around and say no, it's just based on the color splash. That's all I got.

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:25 AM

Edit: Very good point, the difference seems to be "new and developmental" and "established".
Hence the "The strategies are the same, the card choices are not" post. They ran prowlers because they either didn't think of stalker or... well didn't think of stalker.

Nightmare

01-11-2008, 11:27 AM

The discussion of whether or not this deck and Green Death should be merged is irrelevant. So is the discussion of whether or not this should be a CANGD. Neither are pertinant to the development of this deck, so please end the discussion now.

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:28 AM

Is adding a green splash for one creature significantly different enough to warrant a new thread? The decks (mono b and the green version in those threads) are basically identical save for one creature and maybe some sideboard choices. Let's make a new thread for Blue Death and change seal of primordium to stifle and tarmogoyf to negator. That doesn't seem different enough to me. A new thread shouldn't be based on just having a different color, the fact is that this deck is a very refined, focused version of suicide black that looks unlike anything I've seen in those threads.

Edit: Very good point, the difference seems to be "new and developmental" and "established".

Anyway, how have you found your targetted LD (4 Sinkhole + 4 Wasteland) to be working vs. UG Thresh? I would think Daze, Stifle, and even opposing Wastelands to be a problem. In this matchup, do you focus on hand disruption first, try to gas them out, then Sink if you can?

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 11:29 AM

Okay then, so.........what do you guys think of replacing engineered plague in the board for crime/punishment?

Anyway, how have you found your targetted LD (4 Sinkhole + 4 Wasteland) to be working vs. UG Thresh? I would think Daze, Stifle, and even opposing Wastelands to be a problem. In this matchup, do you focus on hand disruption first, try to gas them out, then Sink if you can?
Depends, if they're only playing 18 lands including 4 wastes usually you just kill their manabase. Daze/stifle aren't as much of a problem for the deck as spellsnare is. Chokes out of the board are amazing though.

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:31 AM

Okay then, so.........what do you guys think of replacing engineered plague in the board for crime/punishment?

Plague still seems useful. Goblins, although slightly on the decline, looks to be gearing up for a resurgence (MorningTide nonsense). Also, I've found Plague to be useful versus random stuff you WILL find at tourneys. Elfs, WW, etc...

The fact that Turn 1 -> Dark Rit -> Plague can almost single-handidly win you games warrants 4 SB slots to me.

Lemuria

01-11-2008, 11:32 AM

If they Daze your Sinkhole, you still have gained some tempo, delaying their strategies a bit.

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:35 AM

If they Daze your Sinkhole, you still have gained some tempo, delaying their strategies a bit.
Dazing sinkhole is fine with this deck because if waste an early land they're looking at an empty board while you have a threat coming down on your next turn.

nitewolf9

01-11-2008, 11:37 AM

The thing is this deck already does very well against goblins, and you have umezawa's jitte in the board as well. As far as WW, I don't know how that is even a concern, elves may be with eladamri although I don't think it is played very much. I like the idea of having some sort of sweeper-style card there (especially to answer etw and zombie tokens for instance), but is plague still the best card?

Lemuria

01-11-2008, 11:41 AM

Plague still seems useful. Goblins, although slightly on the decline, looks to be gearing up for a resurgence (MorningTide nonsense). Also, I've found Plague to be useful versus random stuff you WILL find at tourneys. Elfs, WW, etc...

The fact that Turn 1 -> Dark Rit -> Plague can almost single-handidly win you games warrants 4 SB slots to me.

Unless some bizarre combo shows up and broke the format, Goblins will never ever die. Even with the Allmighty Hulk Flash, Goblins took second place.
In fact, most decks are focusing in beat Goyf and other thing right now that they are loosing ways to deal with a first turn Lackey. I consider this situation pretty dangerous and I see no reason to not treat Goblins as a great threat.

My conclusions: with should always keep Plague in the SB.

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:43 AM

I like plague because of the decks it answeres: Goblins, RandomClerics.dec, Breakfast, Helps against ichorid, ETW combo, uwb fish(naming wizard is tech) etc...

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:47 AM

Unless some bizarre combo shows up and broke the format, Goblins will never ever die. Even with the Allmighty Hulk Flash, Goblins took second place.
In fact, most decks are focusing in beat Goyf and other thing right now that they are loosing ways to deal with a first turn Lackey. I consider this situation pretty dangerous and I see no reason to not treat Goblins as a great threat.

My conclusions: with should always keep Plague in the SB.

thetruth.com

Goblins is still nuts to fight against, and Jitte might come online too late to matter in some games, where Plague, at anytime (hopefully turn 1-2), will have an immediate effect on the game-state. And having 2 Plagues (naming your opponent's dominant creature) out in play will cripple almost any deck running creatures. Plague will always have 4 SB slots in my decks running black.

edit: @nitewolf, how many lands do you typically feel you NEED out in play? Can this deck operate off 4 efficiently?

zulander

01-11-2008, 11:55 AM

thetruth.com

Goblins is still nuts to fight against, and Jitte might come online too late to matter in some games, where Plague, at anytime (hopefully turn 1-2), will have an immediate effect on the game-state. And having 2 Plagues (naming your opponent's dominant creature) out in play will cripple almost any deck running creatures. Plague will always have 4 SB slots in my decks running black.

edit: @nitewolf, how many lands do you typically feel you NEED out in play? Can this deck operate off 4 efficiently?
I feel fine at 3, very comfy at 4. I even kept a few 1 landers in the winter wonder land because I had turn 1 rit and turn 2/3 thoughseize in case i didn't hit the second land. Naturally I hit a fetch off the top in both games which helped me play a turn 3 stalker. Talk about beats.

Arsenal

01-11-2008, 11:58 AM

I feel fine at 3, very comfy at 4. I even kept a few 1 landers in the winter wonder land because I had turn 1 rit and turn 2/3 thoughseize in case i didn't hit the second land. Naturally I hit a fetch off the top in both games which helped me play a turn 3 stalker. Talk about beats.

I think 4 is the plateau too. I've found I can casting multiple spells per turn, not overextend into some random Cataclysm, Geddon, Vindicate, Sinkhole, etc, and still pump my Shade up to 4 turn clock levels.

EDIT: To further analyze the LD disruption package vs. UG Thresh's disruption package, how much testing was done? Stifle + Daze + Wasteland looks to be vicious vs. a deck that relys on Fetchs, Sinkholes, and Wastes to lock the opponent out of early game mana. Also, UG Thresh runs off of 2 land, 3 is the plateau. even 1 land can get them going into their xxx canttips and Tops. I read in the matchup portion how you do against UWG, URG, and UBG, but not UG only (different than the other 3 as Stifle + Wasteland are now to be factored).

The thing is this deck already does very well against goblins

On the draw, you have 4 MD answers to a resolved Lackey in game 1. Jitte out of the board means you lost game 1, and Jitte can sometimes come online too late vs. Goblins. Plague out of the board is effective regardless of when it's dropped, and it has an immediate effect on the game-state.

Shawon

01-11-2008, 04:16 PM

I might as well throw this out there:

Stromgald Crusader over Nantuko Shade?

Crusader has the advantage of pro white so it dodges Swords. Plus, it flies over Mongoose/Goyf. And, it can still pump itself, of course not as much as Shade. Is Shade still better?

Shtriga

01-11-2008, 04:23 PM

its a decent creature on its own, but I don't think it can replace shade

zulander

01-11-2008, 04:34 PM

EDIT: To further analyze the LD disruption package vs. UG Thresh's disruption package, how much testing was done? Stifle + Daze + Wasteland looks to be vicious vs. a deck that relys on Fetchs, Sinkholes, and Wastes to lock the opponent out of early game mana. Also, UG Thresh runs off of 2 land, 3 is the plateau. even 1 land can get them going into their xxx canttips and Tops. I read in the matchup portion how you do against UWG, URG, and UBG, but not UG only (different than the other 3 as Stifle + Wasteland are now to be factored).

Sure if they get all 3, daze/snare/waste then there isn't too much you can do against the nuts draw. Then again you only play 3/4 bayous so waste doesn't affect you that much. The only time you fetch up a bayou is when you have goyf in hand. Otherwise leave the fetch on the table unless you need it.

lolosoon

01-11-2008, 05:25 PM

On the draw, you have 4 MD answers to a resolved Lackey in game 1.
Don't forget Eva Green can also Ritual into Shade or Hippy turn 1. Still, I concede Shade could easily be pinged to death by Fanatic or Incinerator...

@TheSource DeckBuilders : I like the deck, still I don't own any Sinkholes. Thus, my build will always be in lack of the inherent tempo advantage of Eva Green...

So, I wonder if I could also drop Snuff Out and add Red Death's 7-8 bolt package (along with 4xBadlands) to gain some reach and faster clock ?!?

Yes, Bolts << Goyf << Snuff Out. But with your own Stalkers and Goyfs+Bolt you have other ways to win Goyf wars if needed.

Sure, it won't be Eva Green anymore (call it Nova Green, R/g Death or whatever, I don't really care a fuck ^_^; ), but the strategy seems viable, isn't it ?

Thoughts ?!?

JDunkin00

01-12-2008, 12:23 PM

I might as well throw this out there:

Stromgald Crusader over Nantuko Shade?

Crusader has the advantage of pro white so it dodges Swords. Plus, it flies over Mongoose/Goyf. And, it can still pump itself, of course not as much as Shade. Is Shade still better?

If there is a ton of STP in your meta crusader is wins bar none. But as mentioned shade pumps bad damage way faster and more likely to survive a head on battle if you block goyf while he is sick.

Duress seems okay, but it does little about artifacts/enchantments that are either top decked or are put into play when you don't have thoughtseize/duress. It seems better to just have an answer in your deck to resolved threats rather than always relying on having the answer at the right time.

Deep6er

01-13-2008, 02:53 AM

Anwar is absolutely right. Setting up a board position that includes Seal, makes it so that you're opponent MUST have enough mana to Activate Deed/Explosives at that instant, and negates any kind of use Shackles might have. That's vitally important because of the virtual card advantage it creates, as nullifying threats (turning them into dead draws) is one incredibly valuable factor that Eva Green can capitalize on. I really think that Seal should stay in the deck, as it fulfills multiple important roles.

Slayer001

01-13-2008, 05:38 AM

No, we need artifact/enchantment removal maindeck. If your opponent lays down a 3sphere or chalice and you don't have an answer its over. If you take it out the board almost every game then it is supposed to be in maindeck. And they helped me already alot maindeck, winning games I wouldn't win without the removal maindeck.

I have been testing a split of Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict and they are quite good together. 2 removal for black and 4 removal for nonblack mayeb go into 3/3 split but what to take out. I think the 2/2 split is best for me

Lemuria

01-13-2008, 11:33 AM

No, we need artifact/enchantment removal maindeck. If your opponent lays down a 3sphere or chalice and you don't have an answer its over. If you take it out the board almost every game then it is supposed to be in maindeck. And they helped me already alot maindeck, winning games I wouldn't win without the removal maindeck.

I have been testing a split of Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict and they are quite good together. 2 removal for black and 4 removal for nonblack mayeb go into 3/3 split but what to take out. I think the 2/2 split is best for me

I'm gonna do some tests, but I don't cutting Snuff Out to 2 is the right call. Also, it's more meta depending. If you're having trouble with black creatures, then maybe you should fit a "kill black creature" removal. Also, our creatures are big enough to deal with other black creatures. I mean, wich other competitive decks runs another big black creatures besides Confidant?

Arsenal

01-13-2008, 11:56 AM

I'm gonna do some tests, but I don't cutting Snuff Out to 2 is the right call. Also, it's more meta depending. If you're having trouble with black creatures, then maybe you should fit a "kill black creature" removal. Also, our creatures are big enough to deal with other black creatures. I mean, wich other competitive decks runs another big black creatures besides Confidant?

Pox decks run Tombstalkers, massive disruption, and tons of removal (spot and mass) to clear the way. I'd much rather have a spot removal spell that's effectiveness isn't color dependant.

Slayer001

01-13-2008, 12:58 PM

I saw an deck with counterbalance, tombstalker and sensei's divining top on MWS, he had 3 stalkers in play and I had 1, and I had 2 snuff out's in my deck. If those 2 were diabolic edicts then I would have won.

It sure is meta dependant how you split your removal or don't split it and only use snuff out's. They sure are nice against affinity, ow you pump ravager to 12. I don't block, before dmg goes on stack, snuff out. I only take 4 dmg instead of 12 and he lost his precious ravager with nothing else in play anymore. I beated him to death afterwards with stalker and goyf :wink:

Arsenal

01-13-2008, 01:22 PM

I was a big fan of Contagion in the Suicide Black thread, and even more so in black decks not running Confidant. I ran 4x Smother (Diabolic Edicts sometimes) + 4x Contagion. All 3 removal spells I toyed with hit all creatures, not just non-black ones, and Contagion was often free by pitching dead discard. However, because this deck only runs 8 discard spells instead of the standard 12 package, I don't think Contagion would fit as you'd be pitching business spells to fuel it.

Snuff Out makes the most sense I suppose in this deck, but if your meta has tons of decks w/ black creatures, then I could see how it would be bad.

zulander

01-13-2008, 03:00 PM

I like snuff outs in the main, and since the deck runs the best black creatures anyways I don't know why you need to remove any of them. If my opponent resolves a confidant I'd actually be happy since the damage he will be taking will most likely up my clock by a turn or two.

Slayer001

01-15-2008, 06:17 AM

I had a brilliant matchup yesterday against dragon stompy

he had turn 1 trinisphere, I gripped it at turn 3 (had grip in my opening hand)
he layed another one meh :P. Then he start stomping with a spirit guide equiped with jitte, I blocked twice with a tarmogoyf to keep not to much counters on jitte. I was at 2 life and I topdecked grip and destroyed Jitte. phoew, then I played another goyf and tombstalker with al the mana I had I could play him for 7, never had that before. and beated him to death. Miraculous win by a topdecked grip. If it was a seal it was harder for me to still win that.

I played again against to top/tombstalker deck and went 1-1, he can get his stalkers so fast on the table with top and searching for wathever he needs StP, counterbalance, goyf. Diabolic edict came in handy in second game. boarded out snuff out's for jitte.

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 07:00 AM

How would it have made a difference. With Seal, you STILL would have destroyed both of those cards. That doesn't make sense. Incidentally, even in this scenario Grip and Seal did the same thing. However, had you played your Seal first, it would have completely changed the outcome of the game (you could have Seal'd Jitte and gone on the offensive much earlier). Proactive game plans are good for this deck. Krosan Grip is too reactive to be good for this deck.

Slayer001

01-15-2008, 08:30 AM

Uhm he could respond with jitte and giving him alot of life wich will make it harder to win, because he gets more turns to draw an arc-slogger, 1 arc slogger and I was dead. Sometimes you can't play anything an you leave mana open and if you have a grip in hand then it come in handy. but seal does the trick also but I like grip better in my meta

Arsenal

01-15-2008, 09:04 AM

How would it have made a difference. With Seal, you STILL would have destroyed both of those cards. That doesn't make sense. Incidentally, even in this scenario Grip and Seal did the same thing. However, had you played your Seal first, it would have completely changed the outcome of the game (you could have Seal'd Jitte and gone on the offensive much earlier). Proactive game plans are good for this deck. Krosan Grip is too reactive to be good for this deck.

The difference is his opponent couldn't do anything with the Jitte counters due to Krosan Grip's split second retardedness; your opponent gaining 10+ life to stall the game for another 2-3 turns is HUGE. I'm surprised you can't see that. Also, in order for Seal to meet it's maximum effectiveness, you must resolve it before your opponent resolves his artifact/enchantment (game-state dependant). With Grip, you are virtually guaranteed to have it meet it's maximum effectiveness whenever you play it (not dependant on ANYTHING except available mana). BIG difference imo.

zulander

01-15-2008, 10:03 AM

your opponent gaining 10+ life to stall the game for another 2-3 turns is HUGE. I'm surprised you can't see that..

His opponent would have gained 8 life. With a goyf/stalker giving your opponent one turn to find an answer to both goyf and stalker is fine. Also, I'm surprised no one has taken my advise. If there is a lot of chalice/stax/cb decks in your meta, by all means play krosan grip. After all, it is a free country.

enemyofarsenic

01-15-2008, 12:29 PM

regarding the sidebaord of this deck: does yixlid jailer affect the delve of tombstalker? thx=]

what do u guys think of rancor? was green splashed mainly for goyf and seal/grips?

Slayer001

01-15-2008, 01:40 PM

Tombstalker is not in the yard when you play it so no it doesn't affect its delve, that's what I think at least

Arsenal

01-15-2008, 01:43 PM

what do u guys think of rancor? was green splashed mainly for goyf and seal/grips?

Goyf and enchantment removal is all you need from green.

Lemuria

01-15-2008, 05:07 PM

Jailer says: "Cards in graveyards loose their abillities".

Delve is a Tombstalker's ability and has nothing to do with graveyard abilities.

Deep6er

01-15-2008, 05:18 PM

The difference is his opponent couldn't do anything with the Jitte counters due to Krosan Grip's split second retardedness; your opponent gaining 10+ life to stall the game for another 2-3 turns is HUGE. I'm surprised you can't see that. Also, in order for Seal to meet it's maximum effectiveness, you must resolve it before your opponent resolves his artifact/enchantment (game-state dependant). With Grip, you are virtually guaranteed to have it meet it's maximum effectiveness whenever you play it (not dependant on ANYTHING except available mana). BIG difference imo.

One, he played 'Goyf AND Tombstalker in that turn. That's MAYBE a Fog. Two, how do you expect that he got so low? I can tell you that it wasn't by swinging for two a turn. That's for DAMN sure. Three, Seal was in his opening hand. He could have dropped it turn 3, and sat on it. He didn't even need to destroy Trinisphere. He obviously had three lands, which meant he was able to play Magic just fine. Do you see the problem here? If he had just played the Seal, then continued to play Magic normally, Jitte is a dead draw. Not to mention the fact that he could theoretically screw his opponent under his own Trinisphere. Once you have three lands, Trinisphere isn't as big a threat as it was on turns 1-2.

Arsenal

01-15-2008, 08:28 PM

One, he played 'Goyf AND Tombstalker in that turn. That's MAYBE a Fog. Two, how do you expect that he got so low? I can tell you that it wasn't by swinging for two a turn. That's for DAMN sure. Three, Seal was in his opening hand. He could have dropped it turn 3, and sat on it. He didn't even need to destroy Trinisphere. He obviously had three lands, which meant he was able to play Magic just fine. Do you see the problem here? If he had just played the Seal, then continued to play Magic normally, Jitte is a dead draw. Not to mention the fact that he could theoretically screw his opponent under his own Trinisphere. Once you have three lands, Trinisphere isn't as big a threat as it was on turns 1-2.

Actually, my comment about Seal's effectiveness being dependant on gamestate was a general comment; not related to the specific example Slayer001 cited.

Also, I stand by my belief that Seal's maximum effectiveness is too dependant on too many different things, while Grip's maximum effectiveness has absolutely no requirements. And that's regardless of what deck it's used in or what it's fighting against.

AnwarA101

01-15-2008, 09:00 PM

Actually, my comment about Seal's effectiveness being dependant on gamestate was a general comment; not related to the specific example Slayer001 cited.

Also, I stand by my belief that Seal's maximum effectiveness is too dependant on too many different things, while Grip's maximum effectiveness has absolutely no requirements. And that's regardless of what deck it's used in or what it's fighting against.

Seal and Grip are just different cards. Seal costs 2 at sorcery speed. Grip costs 3 but is basically unanswerable. There are times where the benefit of costing 2 will matter more than being unanswerable. Seal costs 2, it can be played proactively, and in a pinch it helps Goyf and Stalker. That isn't to say Grip doesn't have its benefits it surely does. The question is what is best for this specific deck. I think Seal makes more sense for the reasons that I outlined.

Obfuscate Freely

01-15-2008, 10:32 PM

Also, I stand by my belief that Seal's maximum effectiveness is too dependant on too many different things, while Grip's maximum effectiveness has absolutely no requirements.
I don't understand this reasoning. What is "maximum effectiveness?" Do the two cards share the same maximum effectiveness? If they don't, your statement doesn't lead to any meaningful conclusions about which is better.

Arsenal

01-15-2008, 11:29 PM

I don't understand this reasoning. What is "maximum effectiveness?" Do the two cards share the same maximum effectiveness? If they don't, your statement doesn't lead to any meaningful conclusions about which is better.

No, the two cards do not share the same maximum effectiveness (efficiency, whatever word you want to use there), although their respective card texts are identical.

And if you haven't figured out which one I think is better in more situations, and why I think so, then you seriously haven't read this thread thoroughly.

I'm done with Grip vs. Seal, I've been testing Eva Green with both Seal and Grip, and found Grip to be better in more situations; although I concede that the situations where Seal was better than Grip... it was WAY better, like huge. I'm not going to play a card that is phenomenal sometimes, while a different card is good most times.

Phantom

01-16-2008, 12:04 AM

One thing that I haven't seen brought up in the Grip vs. Seal debate (which is really a fairly minor issue dominating a thread about a great new deck, but such is life) is the fact that playing Seal proactively, while maximizing your mana, also gives the opponent valuable information. In the event that they are holding two or more artifacts or enchantments (or, I guess, a needle and an artifact/enchantment) this information will help them make the correct play.

I'm not going to pass final judgment on a card in a deck I've never played, especially in light of all the quality testing that has been done here, just thought I'd make that point.

jamest

01-16-2008, 01:13 AM

Grip vs. Seal debate
I vote none of the above. It still seems strange to have a narrow card like Seal in the maindeck. In Nitewolf's tournament report, I noticed that he sided out Seal in 6 of the 7 matches played. There are a lot of situations where Seal is either dead or has very few targets i.e. Goblins (4 Vials), UGB Thresh (3 CB), Cephalid (4 Vials). Matchups where Seal is dead include UGR Thresh, Burn, and Ichorid. Plus, it's a reactive card in the sense that it's only really useful if you're opponent plays the card that you're targetting. Otherwise, you've wasted mana and a card.

I've already suggested Duress as an alternative. Jitte (which Nitewolf sided in alot) and Needle were also mentioned. I'd prefer a card that goes to the gy to feed Tombstalker, so here are some more candidates:
Extirpate - gives you some maindeck gy hate and complements your discard and land destruction strategy.
Shriekmaw - removal that can be cast as a creature.
Street Wraith - cycles early, threat later. Mishra's Bauble if you want to avoid the life loss.
Nantuko Vigilante - or some other creature that doubles as a threat.
Of course, this is just a small sample of possible replacements and more options open up if we splash another color.

which is really a fairly minor issue dominating a thread about a great new deck, but such is life
I second this. I really like the other 57 cards in the deck.

Lemuria

01-16-2008, 05:27 AM

Goblins (4 Vials), UGB Thresh (3 CB), Cephalid (4 Vials)

Well, being able to run a card that can screw Goblins and Thresh and Cephalid, hmm, seems reasonable enough to me. Ichorid and Burn will won game 1 against most decks in the format anyway, so that doesn't matter much. Also, people now are paying more attention to the broken Moat (including myself) and trying to fit them in their decks (see T.E.C.), and since this card is indeed broken, I'm afraid that it can become even more popular.

zulander

01-16-2008, 07:09 AM

Don't forget seal can hit dragon breath in breakfast too, this is important if they had to mill their entire deck to get the combo pieces.

Maveric78f

01-16-2008, 07:10 AM

Don't forget seal can hit dragon breath in breakfast too, this is important if they had to mill their entire deck to get the combo pieces.

Stop building your deck on the assumption that your opponent is stupid.

zulander

01-16-2008, 07:14 AM

Don't forget seal can hit dragon breath in breakfast too, this is important if they had to mill their entire deck to get the combo pieces.

If I wasn't clear, I meant that a combo piece was one of the last three cards of the deck.

enemyofarsenic

01-17-2008, 11:14 PM

Does this deck have a good game against aggro loam? Thx =], this deck is really monstrous though...

Please use your shift key.

-PR

Lemuria

01-18-2008, 05:29 AM

does this deck have a good game against aggro loam? thx =] this deck is really monstrous though...

I played some games against Aggro Loam a while back and I remember it's about even. If you start quickly with discards, your creatures will live long enough to do the job for you, however, you have no chance at all when they stabilize. Watch out for Devastating Dreams, cuz since you keep around 3 lands in play, it shouldn't be a problem for them to shut you down.

Slayer001

01-18-2008, 05:50 AM

Before sideboard they have the advantage, but after sideboard they can't do anything, you side in leyline of the void and you mull till you have it in hand, mostly with 7 or 6 cards in hand since you will put in 4 :smile:. If you don't have it with 6 but you have enough discard in hand do it without LotV. If you can get your beaters on early they will have problems with that

enemyofarsenic

01-19-2008, 10:14 PM

Is engineered explosives a good sweeper card for this deck? EtW tokens et al, any other good board sweepers available we can use for this deck? =]

nitewolf9

01-19-2008, 11:18 PM

I wouldn't play EE simply because you have no way to set it past 2 counters. Crime/punishment seems better if you want a card like that. It could be ok in some metagames, maybe with a lot of belcher/tes/friggorid, and it seems pretty good against threshold. Maybe worth a shot.

Slayer001

01-20-2008, 07:34 AM

No I wouldn't play EE in this deck. I have dystopia SB, but I might take a look at punishment also :smile:

zulander

01-20-2008, 08:12 AM

There's also plague in the board as well.

Slayer001

01-20-2008, 08:50 AM

Indeed that I use against EtW tokens, and enough hand disruption to not let them combo on Tendrils, and grips against belcher who are already maindeck

Shtriga

01-20-2008, 10:11 AM

you have pernicious deed

and on EE, you can pay extra for it to avoid counterbalance/spell snare

maybe punishment is better than EE. its harder to counter with no need for cute tricks, but slower and more mana intensive. on the other hand has the potential to hit more stuff

Peter_Rotten

01-23-2008, 01:54 PM

Has anyone tested Eva Green against Goyf-Sligh? In my limited testing session, it seems like a REALLY bad match for Eva. She can win against it, but the disruption has to fall into the right order. I've seen the match turn into a bit of a top deck war and Sligh's top decks tend to be more... um... better.

nitewolf9

01-23-2008, 03:20 PM

Has anyone tested Eva Green against Goyf-Sligh? In my limited testing session, it seems like a REALLY bad match for Eva. She can win against it, but the disruption has to fall into the right order. I've seen the match turn into a bit of a top deck war and Sligh's top decks tend to be more... um... better.

If you resolve an early tombstalker they are in trouble, and hymn is a beating. I think it depends though. We run tarmogoyf instead of negator and snuff out still kills your tarmogoyfs while you have to attack/block and burn Eva's. All that being said, this deck can do some damage to itself and sligh can definitely capitalize on that.

I think jitte out of the board helps the matchup alot. I'm not really sure about it on a whole though, it could be tested if people are curious.

xsockmonkeyx

01-23-2008, 03:29 PM

Has anyone tested Eva Green against Goyf-Sligh? In my limited testing session, it seems like a REALLY bad match for Eva. She can win against it, but the disruption has to fall into the right order. I've seen the match turn into a bit of a top deck war and Sligh's top decks tend to be more... um... better.

I have and it is. Its a difficult match because of all the damage you take from Fetches, Seizes, and Snuff Outs is hard to manage in the face of tons of burns spells. Like you said Eva can win but disrupting the Goyf Sligh is more difficult with the added lifeloss from your own disruption and removal spells. Also, in a Goyf vs Goyf standoff the Goyf Sligh player tends to have the upperhand because of the presence of stuff like Seal of Fire and Fanatic. Most of the wins for green during testing were perfect disruption and/or a bad opening for the Sligh player backed by a quick Tombstalker.

lolosoon

02-06-2008, 05:10 AM

...did Eva Green survived the hype ?!?

There has been a lot of discussions around this deck while the build didn't move a bit (still, I've to agree the 57 core cards are solid).

With the Metagame shifting sligthly with MorningTide beeing legal (new bolts for Burn//GoyfSligh, tribal removal for Goblins and a Monster for AggroLoam), I wonder if Eva Green is still a good choice as listed.

There's a Legacy event at my local shop in two weeks, with an unknown metagame. I think I'll switch the MD Seals with the SB Jitte for more security.

What you guys think ? Are you still confident with Eva Green ?

Blacktail

02-06-2008, 08:37 AM

I have been doing a lot of testing with Green, and I have to say that it's definitely survived the hype

It is definitely the best suicide deck in atm, and it has so many better
matchups. If your meta has a lot of control, combo or thresh, you should
definitely play this deck.

Personally, I would stick with 3 md duress in addition to the thoughtseize, but that's just my playstyle

nitewolf9

02-06-2008, 10:29 AM

Seal has actually been nothing but amazing for me, I really don't think I would cut it at this point. I was looking for another card for the slot thinking that there might be something better, but I don't think there is unless you have a really good read on a specific metagame and want to pack some MD bomb for said metagame. Anwar and Deep6er convinced me that it should stay in the deck and I think they were right.

There's a Legacy event at my local shop in two weeks, with an unknown metagame. I think I'll switch the MD Seals with the SB Jitte for more security.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. Seal is a great catch all answer to a lot of random stuff, and unless it's all going to be random aggro I think you are just diluting the focus of the deck with MD jitte.

Slayer001

02-06-2008, 01:25 PM

No, you need the artifact removal in form of grip or seal. The most decks that are at the top run alot of enchantments/artifacts. the maindeck artifact removal is a good choice. Jitte can be good against certain matchups, but not against all, it has done very good work for me in de sideboard against decks like burn, death and taxes, dragon stompy,... but long not against all top decks. Its a better SB card for this deck

Phantom

02-06-2008, 01:51 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure when the meta hit a point where maindeck Disenchant effects are completley acceptable, but I know when testing the deck I was amazed by the impact of Seal in so many matchups. I wouldn't tell you never to drop them, but I would say test the hell out of them first. I doubt you'll be dissapointed.

zulander

02-06-2008, 02:24 PM

One of the other options in place of seal was crime/punishment. It's more mana intensive but can help game 1 vs etw combo decks. It's also very good at blowing up multiple moxen (chrome/diamond).

UG Madness :
SnuffOut is a beast against their Wurms and you have a great clock with Goyf and Stalker. The problem is their solid manabase and cheap threats.
Mongrel easily becoming a black SnuffOut-proof critter, it's sometimes hard to shut down their early madness engine. But if you do, you can stomp them to death.
SB Choke crush them after Game1.
The Seal weren't great, but at least you have MD answer for their Jittes.

9Land Stompy (hey, I say random decks too) :
Stompy goes to the throat quickly, but with some early chumpblocks, critter trading and well timed SnuffOuts, they quickly ran out of Steam. Then, Goyf, Hyppies and Sinkholes are your main weapon.
Turn 1 RootMaze was a huge problem in some games with all our fetchlands and useless Wastes. So the seals were quite useful, so was he alternate cc of SnuffOut.
Getting Jitte from SB was great, but some Deeds could have been better.

Armaggedon Stax :
Damn, this matchup is sooo hard to win. I was happy with SnuffOut vs early Angels and Magus. Other removal would have been shuted down by chalices and the high cc of those beasts.
You usually have a low permanent count, so Smokestacks, TangleWires along Geddons are a beating. Hopefully, a lone threat like Goyf or Stalker can attack through the taxing effect of prisons.
Seal were pleasant and useful, but there's so many targets in StaX you san't shoot'em all.
I wish I packed SB Deeds... Shutting down Crucible with Leyline was good, but not sufficient.

Burn :
Ouch. You take so many pain from your own card it make a burn player delighted (even if turn1 ThoughtSize ripping Fireblast or Flame Rift is OK). Still, if you power out an early Goyf or Stalker, you can race them with Hymn and Sinkhole backup. Those two cards are a great tempo loss for them.
The 3 SB Jittes are great, but they're often prepared for that Game2. But it's your only viable and available option.

So, I've a playtest session next week where I could test some Threshold and Fish variants. Until there, I'd stick with the initial list. I wonder if some room coul be made in SB for 2 Deeds though...

ChillerKiller0815

02-19-2008, 11:27 AM

Hi everyone, this is my first post on TheSource but I am following Threads for over a year already. At the moment I am piloting Eva Green with some success in Germany.
Some thoughts on the build: Sometimes the Lifeloss due to Snuff Out and Thoughtseize hurt just a little to much. That is why I dropped one Snuff Out and currently replaced it with a single Smother. Works quite good since it basically hits the same targets + it gets D.Confidant and in my case sometimes gets a Meddling Mage naming S.Out. But I thing about replacing the Smother with a Deed but in order to profit from it I would need to fit a second deed into the deck. But I am not sure yet what else to cut.
The second card I cutted down to 3 is the Thoughtseize along with a Hymn to Tourach to fit 2 Duress main. I figured that often I use thoughtseize to take counterspells, swords and other noncreature cards to get a safe turn 2 beater on the field. Considering the lifeloss duress does the Job just as good, that why I have the 3/2 split. Now you might wonder why I dropped a Hymn for an extra Duress. The reason why I did is the otherwise very poor first turn drop this deck offers.
Playing a disruption spell turn 1 followed by a turn 2 beater is what this deck wants to play most of the times. Hymn delays this approach by a turn. So in order to up the first turn spells I had to cut a Hymn.
My question now is if it might even be a good idea to cut one more Hymn for an extra Duress or even to make room for the Deed main? Any thoughts?

Since english isnīt my native language please excuse my form of expression.

Arsenal

02-19-2008, 11:35 AM

Deed hits WAY too much of your own stuff for it be effective. If you Deed for 3 (which is the most common number I've found it to be activate for), you wipe out Shade, Goyf, Hippy, Seal of Primordium, Jitte, Choke, Engineered Plague. The only thing that survives is Tombstalker.

Now, of course you wouldn't Deed with tons of your own permanents on the table, but you get the point.

zulander

02-19-2008, 11:44 AM

As far as deed goes, I played it in my board and like it. I played it over choke. Also, the only thing I would even consider taking out of the main for duress would be either seal or sinkhole. Thoughtseize and hymn are just so freakin good in this deck that unless they are replaced (which they won't be) by better cards in the next few sets, that they should stay in.

Shtriga

02-19-2008, 01:19 PM

I play deeds on my SB. it just gets rid of too much random junk and that's why it's great. it also gives me another answer to EtW tokens, although it can be one turn too late sometimes

ChillerKiller0815

02-19-2008, 01:35 PM

Ok, I agree that Deed is probably only sideboard material if we find room for it in the sb. But I would like to hear some more thoughts on the amount of Lifeloss we can take before it gets critical. As I said before that is a reason why i cutted 1 Snuff Out and 1 Thoughtseize and replaced them with spells that would be the next best option for that slot (Duress and Smother). This way I make sure that I donīt see to many of these lifeloss cards and we take ONLY about -8 life during a average game including 2 fetch 1 snuff and 1 seize.

The next point I would like to hear some thoughts on is about going down 1 Hymn for 1 extra Duress. Both are HD elements. But I preferred a extra first turn drop to get a vital card the opponent is holding because in the 2cc slot we already have enough cards we would like to play turn 2 (4Goyf, 3Hymn, 4Sinkhole,4Shade,3Seal) and knowing that they canīt be countered, sworded, dazed is often vital for success. I am just trying to optimize the pressure the deck should build up in the early game. Any thoughts????

Btw I know that Hymn is a great card, but so is Duress and Thoughtseize and they are a better topdeck in the mid- to lategame.

@Zulander: Cutting Sinkhole for extra duress would be a bad idea since both cards fit a different role in this deck. Duress makes sure you can play your own bombs whereas hole locks down the manabase combined with wasteland and choke. So duress lets you play the beaters and sinkholes slow them down so your beaters can race their strategy.

Shtriga

02-19-2008, 01:49 PM

that's why I run duress instead of thoughtseize. the lifeloss could be too much at times. there's few occasions where I'd rather have seize in fact. usually we have just enough resources to deal with creatures (especially after board)

smothers are very good, but often I don't have the mana open to play it during the opponent's turn. but they're a valid replacement and if they work fine to you, then more power to you.

thanks for your quick reply. So I am not the only one thinking this way. I dont know if I would go as far as cutting Seize for Duress completely but I think some sort of split is the way to go. Do you have any thoughts on Hymn vs. Duress/Thoughtseize???

The second option for reducing lifeloss would be cutting more Seize so we can keep 4 Snuff Outs - like you did. So we basically both found the same problem and took slightly different approaches to solve it.

thx in advance

Shtriga

02-19-2008, 02:05 PM

hymn is really good as randomly screwing your opponent. not many decks can play the same after turn 1 duress turn 2 hymn, turn 1 ritual duress hymn, or 2 hymns in sucession. I'll always go with 4

dures vs seize, go 2/2 maybe? or 3/2 in any amount you wish. it's hard to say which is the "right" way

Media314r8

02-19-2008, 02:13 PM

Btw I know that Hymn is a great card, but so is Duress and Thoughtseize and they are a better topdeck in the mid- to lategame.

Does not compute. Mid-late game your opponent is often just holding removal, counters, or bluffing such with lands. In all these cases, hymn >> duress/TS, as it will empty their whole hand. (if they still have 3+ cards vs an aggro deck mid-game, you probably allready lost this one) Duress will often wiff late game, and nothing is more depressing than topdecking a TS, and casting it on your oppoent to simply have them reveal a land or two as you adjust your life total for their free CA shock. At least hymn nabs whatever land they might be holding, (could possibly be relevant if they have eternal, decree, deed, ect) and hymn doesnt take 2 life to cast. I think TS should be a four-of, and hymn a 3 or 4 of. (as it also works as psuedo LD on the play or with dark rit)

Sui-black is called it that for a good reason: its suicidal. Comes with the territory, ect. You even sighted that you would rather be doing other things with two mana, I am to presume laying a goyf/sinkhole is also better than tapping out for a kill spell in an aggro deck. this is the primary reason why snuff out is run over smother. In this deck, smother <<< snuff out. Also, TS >>> duress in a sui aggro build, as the potential to wiff (especially if you could have taken a goyf or other threat) makes duress vastly inferior.

AnwarA101

02-19-2008, 02:36 PM

Sui-black is called it that for a good reason: its suicidal. Comes with the territory, ect. You even sighted that you would rather be doing other things with two mana, I am to presume laying a goyf/sinkhole is also better than tapping out for a kill spell in an aggro deck. this is the primary reason why snuff out is run over smother. In this deck, smother <<< snuff out. Also, TS >>> duress in a sui aggro build, as the potential to wiff (especially if you could have taken a goyf or other threat) makes duress vastly inferior.

The main reason to play Snuff Out is that doesn't cost you a turn. Snuff Out costs 0 mana which means you can spend your other mana during an early turn in the game playing a spell in addition to playing Snuff Out.

Your Opponent spends a turn palying Tarmogoyf, you Snuff it Out on your own turn and play a Tarmogoyf of your own. You undid your opponents turn without losing your own.

ChillerKiller0815

02-19-2008, 02:37 PM

Ok, maybe I was to fast on cutting one Hymn. But I dont think playing 4 TS is the way to go because the lifeloss is hurting to much sometimes. Even if this deck is a type of black suicide it is too much to inflict yourself 6-10 lifeloss during your first 2-3 turns. After you build up a board position you often end up beeing under 10 life which makes snuff out and TS not the best topdecks either because even if they are stronger/cheaper than their alternatives they become more or less unplayable due to their drawback or at least very risky.

SB:
4 Leyline
4 Choke -> they are just so good in here:laugh:
4 E.Plague
3 Jitte

When sbing I found myself cutting Dark Ritual and Seals most Frequently aside with Snuff Out. -> any different experience??

zulander

02-19-2008, 02:56 PM

Play 4 thoughtseize. Seriously.

Media314r8

02-19-2008, 03:01 PM

Thoughtseize may cost 2 life to cast, but since sui doesnt do a whole lot of blocking, think of the life you'll save (and take from them) by plucking out a goyf from their hand.

Them not having a goyf >> 2 life

Obfuscate Freely

02-19-2008, 09:52 PM

An important thing to understand about a deck as aggressive as this one is how crucial the strength of your opening hand and early draws is. Realistically, once your opponent cuts your deck, your resources for winning the game amount to little more than the top ten cards. This is because most of the cards in the deck lose value dramatically after the first few turns of the game. Cards like Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, and even Hypnotic Specter become significantly worse as your opponent's gameplan develops. Thoughtseize and Snuff Out are no different; in fact, this would still be true of them even if they didn't cost you life.

So, how do you best design your deck to be successful, even if you only see about 17% of it before your cards begin to be hopelessly outclassed by your opponent's? You make damn sure to run the maximum number of your best cards, which gives you the highest chances of starting each game with access to your most powerful plays.

In this case, that means including the full sets of Dark Rituals, Sinkholes, Hymn to Tourachs, and Hypnotic Specters. It also means including the full sets of both Thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs.

If you really feel like the lifeloss from Thoughtseizes and Snuff Outs is costing you games, consider that most games in which your opponent is able to attack your life total are actually lost long before the final point is dealt. Remember that Eva Green cannot successfully assume the role of a control deck in any matchup, and that being forced to do so is almost always a result of the deck failing to execute its strategy. Now, it is true that small changes in your life total can occasionally allow an otherwise defensive opponent to become the aggressor, but this is very rarely the case, even against other aggressive decks. Also, if you do come across such a situation, you have to determine whether a card less effective than Thoughtseize or Snuff Out (such as Duress or Smother) would have even been a suitable replacement.

ChillerKiller0815

02-20-2008, 10:16 AM

So we are done here. Just play a 4-off of the best cards discussed. full stop.
development will be picked up again as soon as a replacement card gets available....

BTW I think that Eva Green is able to go into the mid- to lategame. Simply because it does agressive LD, HD and board control via Snuff Out and (Seal) in the first few turns and then has the potential of going aggro by topdecking better threats and recovering faster from the disruption battle (solid manabase,no synergy effects, brutal critters, more disruption).

So a Hypnotic played later on in the game can still break the oponents neck if he didnīt manage to recover from the early HD and LD and carries the early disruption plan on until he gets handled. And in the worst case he is a evasive beater with disruption attached to it that helps play the other beaters savely.

Lance

03-03-2008, 05:42 PM

Hello guys, long time reader but first post here:laugh: !

I just won a tournament here in Quebec with Eva Green (around 20 players) and thought I could share my experience here.

The first thing I want to adress is this Seal vs Grip non sense. When you actually play the deck a lil, you know that Seal is clearly the better choice. First, it doesn't cost double green mana, wich the deck hate to see! You want a single bayou in play, that's all, so you are less vulnerable to opponent's wastelands. Second, it cost 1 less, and between the shade's pump ability and you being busy casting threats and/or disruption, you don't have mana open believe me. Third, it's en enchantment, so it make your Goyf larger. Finally, in the control matchup, you can lay it down when you have nothing to do, so it can protect you from a future counterbalance or Shackles: you can play your threats not worrying about em' (and pump your shade(s) too)!

About thoughtseize, play four, seriously... It's the better card, the ability to take out an opponent's Goyf or other good beater is too good not to play. Duress is just plain weaker, even more when you play against an agressive deck with lot of beaters.

I found the sideboard really good, the only change I made was Pernicious Deed instead of Plagues. Seriously, Engineered Plague is a narrow card and cost the same thing! Deed can clear ETW tokens just as well and can be usefull in lot of matchups. The only problem I had was the fallowing: what to take out??? It's so hard, I didn't want to have less threats or disruption, it was a pain in the *** each time I had to decide what to take out, except in the control matchup: choke instead of Jitte (I had em main deck instead of Seals, meta call, but a bad one:tongue: ) and one Snuff Out (the rest were in for opponent's Goyfs). I could use some advices as for what to side in what matchup.

Thx guys!

Soto

03-03-2008, 05:48 PM

First, it doesn't cost double green mana, wich the deck hate to see!

Krosan Grip does not cost double green. But you are right with the reasons for seal being better.

Shtriga

03-03-2008, 05:58 PM

and engineered plague is just as good as deed against ETW tokens if not better (ritualed out early, easier mana cost), and randomly good against tons of other things. but on the other hand, so is deed.

in a void, I love deed, much more so than plague (and run both in SB) but if I had to choose I'd say plague is the better option for the SB slot in this particular deck

Lance

03-03-2008, 10:01 PM

Yes Grip is 2G, my bad:laugh: And yes Engineered is as good as deed against ETW gobo, in fact in was part of my argument as why it is better! It can do alot of thing that engineered can't, like removing a pesky enchantment.

AnwarA101

03-03-2008, 11:03 PM

Hello guys, long time reader but first post here:laugh: !

I just won a tournament here in Quebec with Eva Green (around 20 players) and thought I could share my experience here.

Congratulations on winning the event and welcome to The Source. Glad to see that you picked up the deck. Makes me think that I should play it more often.

The first thing I want to adress is this Seal vs Grip non sense. When you actually play the deck a lil, you know that Seal is clearly the better choice. First, it doesn't cost double green mana, wich the deck hate to see! You want a single bayou in play, that's all, so you are less vulnerable to opponent's wastelands. Second, it cost 1 less, and between the shade's pump ability and you being busy casting threats and/or disruption, you don't have mana open believe me. Third, it's en enchantment, so it make your Goyf larger. Finally, in the control matchup, you can lay it down when you have nothing to do, so it can protect you from a future counterbalance or Shackles: you can play your threats not worrying about em' (and pump your shade(s) too)!

I have to agree with this sentiment. Seal is a very efficient proactive answer to some of the nastiest enchantments and artifacts that are floating around in Legacy. Krosan Grip by comparison is reactive, costs more, and does nothing in a pinch to pump a Goyf or power out a Tombstalker. Krosan Grip is obviously a good card, but I'm not sure it fits here.

About thoughtseize, play four, seriously... It's the better card, the ability to take out an opponent's Goyf or other good beater is too good not to play. Duress is just plain weaker, even more when you play against an agressive deck with lot of beaters.

Yes, Yes, Yes. Thoughtseize is too good not to play. Think about how many times Duress has missed where Thoughtseize is simply amazing. Thoughtseize actually improves the aggro matchup because it gives you less dead cards.

I found the sideboard really good, the only change I made was Pernicious Deed instead of Plagues. Seriously, Engineered Plague is a narrow card and cost the same thing! Deed can clear ETW tokens just as well and can be usefull in lot of matchups. The only problem I had was the fallowing: what to take out??? It's so hard, I didn't want to have less threats or disruption, it was a pain in the *** each time I had to decide what to take out, except in the control matchup: choke instead of Jitte (I had em main deck instead of Seals, meta call, but a bad one:tongue: ) and one Snuff Out (the rest were in for opponent's Goyfs). I could use some advices as for what to side in what matchup.

Thx guys!

Pernicious Deed while a powerful card seems a bit out of place here. Symmetrical nature of the card often means that you will be blowing up your own creatures. Engineered Plague by comparison is better as a proactive card as you can play it and it makes an immediate impact and doesn't cost more than 3 mana. Deed can't also be cast off a ritual, which is important in cheating mana costs in a deck like this.

Pretty straightfoward, but I think this side is quite good. Choke is amazing, directly responsable for my win in final vs TEC (the epic control). Leyline was good all day long too, vs Welder Survival in particular. As for deed, I think it's a better card all around than plague, but you could be right. Afterall you know the deck better than I do:wink: !

As for the matchups, what would be your sideboard tech against those deck that I face here in Quebec:
- Survival (with and without welder)
- Landstill (more often than not U/W/G or U/W, no black ones)
- Zoo (Kird ape, Goyf, Grim, Bolt, etc.)
- Burn (wich I didn't face last tournament, but I expect a hard matchup for Eva Green)
- ******** (red thresh is the most popular)

Burn is a concern for me, because we have a good player here who top8 most of the time with it. Also, no ichorid here, at all in Legacy (but quite a few in Vintage)!

Pretty straightfoward, but I think this side is quite good. Choke is amazing, directly responsable for my win in final vs TEC (the epic control). Leyline was good all day long too, vs Welder Survival in particular. As for deed, I think it's a better card all around than plague, but you could be right. Afterall you know the deck better than I do:wink: !

As for the matchups, what would be your sideboard tech against those deck that I face here in Quebec:
- Survival (with and without welder)
- Landstill (more often than not U/W/G or U/W, no black ones)
- Zoo (Kird ape, Goyf, Grim, Bolt, etc.)
- Burn (wich I didn't face last tournament, but I expect a hard matchup for Eva Green)
- ******** (red thresh is the most popular)

Burn is a concern for me, because we have a good player here who top8 most of the time with it. Also, no ichorid here, at all in Legacy (but quite a few in Vintage)!

Survival: I don't board graveyard hate against Survival as it usually is too little too late. I've had very little experience against Welder Survival as no one plays it in my area.

-3 Seal
+3 Jitte

If you play Dystopia, I would also board that in for Hymn.

Landstill:

-4 Snuff Out
+4 Choke

Not much to explain here, play the card that wrecks their manabase.

Zoo, Burn:

-3 Seal
+3 Jitte

Lifegain, creature advantage, and Seal is likely dead.

Red Threshold: Thresh is one of the hardest decks to board for. You need to bring in Choke so you most likely cut Sinkhole as its basically a bad Choke. You probably need something else, but I doubt Deed is that card. I've been playing with Dystopia and Tormod's Crypt. Perhaps you could try Leyline, but its more conditional and a bad topdeck.

With your board:
-4 Sinkhole
+4 Choke

jamest

03-05-2008, 07:54 PM

Why not board out Seal against Red Thresh?

AnwarA101

03-05-2008, 09:00 PM

Why not board out Seal against Red Thresh?

I would board out Seal against Red Thresh, but you need something more to board in. You could keep in Sinkhole, but ideally you would have more cards to board in to improve the matchup.

lolosoon

03-14-2008, 06:31 PM

Yeah, the deck is great.

Still, I've got real big trouble fighting burn and GoyfSligh which became rampant in my meta for two Months.

I really don't see how to improve those matchups =/ (I'd hate part with Eva Green just for that)

Now, with AggroLoam beeing more popular (thanks to CSC - damn you you ugly Giant !!), fight your way to Top places could be painful sometimes. Their manaBase is solid (you can't always cut them for green and LftL), their threat density big enough to make you want pack more removal instead of your 4 SnuffOuts...

Sure, SB Leylines and Tombstalker are a pain in their @$$, still an early DD kills half your threats, and theirs (ie:threats) are bigger than yours. I usually lose my 1st game and struggle to win the 2 others.

Damn Meta, you're not kind with my Eva Green...
*sad panda face*

Slayer001

03-15-2008, 01:23 PM

I played this deck at a small tournament in my local store but with some changes, don't have thoughtseizes so I played duress instead.

first match I lost 0-2 against echantress, he played 4 elephant grass and that hurted, I had to mull to 5 game 1 and lost to a grass and sterling grove
could not do much and he blasted em with words of war. second game he locked me down with double grove, moat and humility

match 2 It was against some merfolk aggro (looks like goblins with counters) I lost 1-2
Game1: he layed his hand down and was very fast, I had a tombstalker but it was not enough to stop him and my removal dind't came

Game2: I had goyf and tombstalker and I beated him to death
Game3: he was very fast but i had an E plague on merfolk slowing him down a bit, I got a tombstalker in play, he stole it afterwards with a merfolk (don't remember the exact name anymore)

Match 3 was against goblins with black splash it turned 2-1 for me
Game1: he was very fast with lackey, piledriver and siege-gang commander in play, I had turn 2 tombstalker but no more creatures or removal came

sided in: 4x E PLague for 4x duress

Game2: I had goyf + tombstalker in play after I wasted all his nonbasic lands and he got stuck with only a rishadan port
Game3: I had E plague and a nantuko shade and he scooped after I layed the E plague

Match 4 against 43 land I won 2-1
Game1: he couldn't stop my beaters I snuffed out his flashbacked roar of the worm and beated him to death with goyf and shade

sided in 4x leyline of the void (lotv) for 2 sinkhole and 2 duress

Game2: he won with lftl in grave, didn't saw my lotv but didn't want to mulligan to it because I had a good start hand. the recuring ports hurted
Game3: I lay down leyline of the void and he scoops

what I would have liked better was to have thoughtseizes instead of duress and better had some deeds or something mass enchant removal

Shtriga

03-15-2008, 04:00 PM

deed, or even tranquility would have helped that enchantress matchup

Slayer001

03-15-2008, 06:57 PM

yea a tranquility would be nice yes, but didn't expect enchantress to be there :smile:
normally nobody plays it that I knew off, next time I will use some tranquilities in SB

xsockmonkeyx

03-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Tranquil Domain, in general, is much better than Tranquility. Instant speed + 1 mana less probably makes up for the fact that it doesnt hit Utopia Sprawl. Im hard pressed to come up with another Aura played in legacy other than Rancor, and that thing isnt dying anyway. Maybe Control Magic.

EDIT: Dragon's Breath, but that doesnt really count.

Sek'Kuar

03-22-2008, 01:32 PM

I've noticed that in, like, every game I've played with this deck tarmogoyf has just been serving as removal bait. My 'stalkers are doing all the work. I've literally only had only 2 or 3 'goyf stick for more than a turn. And they were dead relatively quickly

noobslayer

03-22-2008, 01:49 PM

That's because Swords to Plowshares and Bounce are the only commonly played removal cards that can get rid of Tombstalker. Swords is played less and truly answers him, bounce is hardly played, and answers him even worse. Take a look on the other side of things, and almost every form of removal we use now can answer Tarmogoyf.

Sek'Kuar

03-22-2008, 07:42 PM

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining. I kinda like putting my opponent on the ropes with a big-ass flying demon.

Must be the Timmy in me...

Slayer001

03-23-2008, 09:29 AM

yea happens to me also, goyf dies so quick, and tombstalker does all the work
on turn 1 tombstalker lot of decks scoop.

@noobslayer: You forgot vindicate, it takes care of him also

played against two slightly different terranova decks the other day in a small tourney again and against belcher

against the first terranova deck I won 2-0 against the other I lost 1-2 because it used vindicates to destroy my stalkers and leylines

belcher I had just plain luck, he only revealed 6 and then a bayou and I kiled him with 2 goyf and a shade it ended 2-1 for me and I got 2nd in my pool

first in my pool was the terranova deck I lost to
in the other pool fairy stompy won the game

in the final the fairy stompy player dropped because he had to take his last autocar home :P

Nihil Credo

03-23-2008, 10:51 AM

What exactly do you mean by a Terranova deck? I've never heard that term.

Sanguine Voyeur

03-23-2008, 11:06 AM

What exactly do you mean by a Terranova deck? I've never heard that term.I believe that's Newfoundland.

Or Terrageddon. Terra + explosion sounds like another name for Terrageddon.

diffy

03-23-2008, 11:12 AM

I think he was referring to the deck mentioned in this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8629) article.

Slayer001

03-23-2008, 01:36 PM

yep that is the list I was reffering too its terrageddon without armageddon, I never saw it before those matches and asked what is was called and they all said terranova, so I thought that was the name :smile:

Nihil Credo

03-23-2008, 03:57 PM

Ok, thanks :) I had forgotten about that article.

Slayer001

03-28-2008, 09:28 PM

played again in small tourney today

first match against terranova 2-0
First game he only gets land and I had to mull to 5, but got tarmogoyf bashing him to death
second game I started with swamp-->dark ritual-->thoughtseize-->Hymn
next turn agin thoughtseize and his hand was gone :P
bashed him to death with tombstalker and shade

second match against SI with fetchlands 0-2
could not stop his comboing didn't got enough hand disruption

last game against enchantress I won 2-1 due to the tranquil domains, thx for that card suggestion :)
fisrst game he had to mull to 6 and so did I, he had only one lan wich I wasted, and then he didn't got land and I bashed him to death
second game he could get alot of enchantments in play, and karmic justice, I could not win that anymore so I let him win. Game 3, I get 2 grips and a tranquil domain he got no replenish so I win :)

do we have anything against SI ?
I sided in 4 leylines but they didn't help much for 3 Snuff out's and 1 diabolic edict
maybe cabal therapy SB ?

electrolyze

03-29-2008, 04:07 AM

are 8 discard cards, 4 hippies and then the leylines side not enough to beat storm combo? you can out cabal therapy maybe in the side but i wouldnt do it cause how much do you see si on tourneys?

Slayer001

03-29-2008, 11:23 AM

it helps also against other combo Belcher and such, nah I lost 2-0 so it wasn't enough, maybe if i drew more discard but he still went off after 2 hyms and 2 thoughtseizes and a hippie

noobslayer

03-29-2008, 01:56 PM

it helps also against other combo Belcher and such, nah I lost 2-0 so it wasn't enough, maybe if i drew more discard but he still went off after 2 hyms and 2 thoughtseizes and a hippie

Then he had god draws, unless your discard didn't hit anything relevant, which I find hard to believe.

Slayer001

03-29-2008, 03:24 PM

nah it hit good things, he got lucky to get helbent for that tutor all the time, he won everything and don't know if he could always have a god hand. With one thoughtseize I removed a LED and with another one a mystical tutor, that were the best options I think

Lance

03-29-2008, 09:51 PM

You lost against combo after 2 hymn, two thoughtsezie and a hypno hit?! Like noobslayer said, either you got extremly unlucky with the random discard or, most likely, your opponent got really lucky.

You can't hate combo more with a maindeck like Eva Green, you got the tools to defeat it. Maybe you had too much discard and no clock during your game, I mean if you had the time to cast all these spells, the game must have been a little long, no? Usually it's more like one good thoughtseize, then sinkhole / waste, then a beater: Tarmo, shade or my favorite the big 5/5 demon:laugh:

Slayer001

03-30-2008, 05:15 AM

yea I agd alot of discard that game but decided to keep my hand because discard was good, the beaters did not come through

Joon

04-04-2008, 06:59 AM

I'm going to build this supersexy Deck but I got a question:

How do you beat Aggro Loam...? Especially these versions with tons of basics which makes it quite difficult to cut them off green for LftL. In addition, Vores und Crushers are just SO big. The only way I see out is an early Stalker backed up with Seals (Assault).
Do you mulligan for Leyline in this Matchup...?

Shtriga

04-04-2008, 07:54 AM

smother would be a perfect fit for that, in place of the sinkholes would help a bit, getting rid of all their big creatures, where as LD is mostly useless. and seals take care of seismic assault

tough part is finding space in the SB to carry them

Slayer001

04-04-2008, 09:11 AM

If I have to beat that deck I usually mull fot lotv after SB but not lower then 5.

AnwarA101

04-04-2008, 09:47 AM

I'm going to build this supersexy Deck but I got a question:

How do you beat Aggro Loam...? Especially these versions with tons of basics which makes it quite difficult to cut them off green for LftL. In addition, Vores und Crushers are just SO big. The only way I see out is an early Stalker backed up with Seals (Assault).
Do you mulligan for Leyline in this Matchup...?

I recently played against an AggroLoamSurvival deck at the NOVA tourney this past weekend. I did lose in game 3, but it wasn't as bad as it would seem. You disrupt them and play fast beats, use Snuff Out to tempo them out of the game and swing for the win. I didn't have Leyline in the board so I couldn't really use it. I only boarded in 3 Jitte and that almost pulled it off in games 2 and 3, but I came up short both times. Nitewolf9 and I have been discussing Leyline of the Void and it seems very powerful as it can hurt both Crusher and Terravore as well as Life from the Loam. I wish I had access to it in my match.

electrolyze

04-07-2008, 02:18 PM

i'm going to play this deck at a big upcoming tourney,

there are really very much kinds of aggro loam, ichorid and probably thresh variants and still very much goblins decks.

is this side good enough for these 4 kind of decks and probably some random aggro and control decks:

4xextirpate
4xyixlid jailer
4xengineered plague
3xumezawa's jitte

my main is the same as erveryone plays casue i think thats the strongest build.

nitewolf9

04-07-2008, 02:29 PM

i'm going to play this deck at a big upcoming tourney,

there are really very much kinds of aggro loam, ichorid and probably thresh variants and still very much goblins decks.

is this side good enough for these 4 kind of decks and probably some random aggro and control decks:

4xextirpate
4xyixlid jailer
4xengineered plague
3xumezawa's jitte

my main is the same as erveryone plays casue i think thats the strongest build.

I'm not sure you really need that much yard hate unless you are expecting ichorid in numbers. If that's the case then I'd probably replace extirpate with leyline of the void, which is not only stronger against ichorid but also stronger against aggro loam. Choke is very good against threshold and the variety of landstill/other blue based control decks that show up at every legacy tournament. I would strongly consider it.

Sek'Kuar

04-07-2008, 02:40 PM

I just had the best play I've ever had with this deck. I went first, playing Swamp, rit, rit, rit, thoughtseize, tombstalker to yank my W-thresh oponnents lone 'goose and in four turns he was gone. Pure luck, but awesome, nonetheless.

electrolyze

04-09-2008, 06:11 AM

the tourney i'm gonna play is upcoming sunday but im not good at boarding out cards most of the time so can somebody give me some tips to board out against this decks:

aggroloam

landstill

threshold

goblins

survival

my side is now the same as the original list.

nitewolf9

04-09-2008, 10:29 AM

the tourney i'm gonna play is upcoming sunday but im not good at boarding out cards most of the time so can somebody give me some tips to board out against this decks:

aggroloam

landstill

threshold

goblins

survival

my side is now the same as the original list.

aggroloam: You want leyline and probably jitte here, as sinkhole and even hymn are not as strong as they could be in this matchup those are what I'd board out. -4 sinkhole, -3 hymn to tourach, +4 leyline otv, +3 jitte

landstill: Choke is a beating for them. -4 snuff out, +4 choke

threshold: This matchup really depends on a number of things, and there are many ways you can board for it. You definitely want to bring in 4 choke, and against white you might want to consider just boarding out 4 snuff out for 4 choke (snuff out only hits goyf here). Otherwise boarding out 3 seal and 1 snuff out for 4 choke seems pretty reasonable as choke can essentially deal with counter/top effectively. You can also cut sinkhole if you wish but that card is still useful, especially against 4 and 5 color builds. Use your judgement based on what your opponent is playing.

survival: Generally, -3 seal and +3 jitte is an ok plan against them. Cutting seal is done because it only hits survival reactively and jitte lets you overwhelm them on the board, combined with your disruption, before they can really get going. Another option is to leave in the seals and board in leyline and jitte for sinkhole and hymn. This lets you directly attack the engine and shut off cards like squee and genesis/anger, and also shrink all their muscle (tarmogoyf) at your whim with stalker. I'm not sure which strategy is better really; this is something that needs to be tested.

electrolyze

04-09-2008, 11:07 AM

thank you very much for the reply, now i really think i'm fully prepared for the tournament:p if i will do it good i will post a tourney result here.

nitewolf9

04-09-2008, 11:40 AM

Good luck and let us know how it goes. I'm curious to hear what decks you wind up playing against.

AnwarA101

04-09-2008, 12:25 PM

aggroloam: You want leyline and probably jitte here, as sinkhole and even hymn are not as strong as they could be in this matchup those are what I'd board out. -4 sinkhole, -3 hymn to tourach, +4 leyline otv, +3 jitte

I think you really want to cut Seal before cutting either Sinkhole or Hymn (I'm not sure which one is better). Seal only hits Mox Diamond that I can think of. Some experimental builds have Survival in them as well, so I guess you'll have to see what you are actually playing against.

survival: Generally, -3 seal and +3 jitte is an ok plan against them. Cutting seal is done because it only hits survival reactively and jitte lets you overwhelm them on the board, combined with your disruption, before they can really get going. Another option is to leave in the seals and board in leyline and jitte for sinkhole and hymn. This lets you directly attack the engine and shut off cards like squee and genesis/anger, and also shrink all their muscle (tarmogoyf) at your whim with stalker. I'm not sure which strategy is better really; this is something that needs to be tested.

I really want to test the leyline/seal/jitte plan as it seems very interesting. I think I've lost just as many post-board games to Survival as I have pre-board which suggests to me that my current sideboarding strategy (-3 Seal, +3 Jitte) doesn't really do much in terms of improving my matchup. I would suggest trying the second strategy, but I have no testing to suggest that it is the better option.

nitewolf9

04-09-2008, 01:16 PM

I think you really want to cut Seal before cutting either Sinkhole or Hymn (I'm not sure which one is better). Seal only hits Mox Diamond that I can think of. Some experimental builds have Survival in them as well, so I guess you'll have to see what you are actually playing against.

The one thing I'd be really worried about is seismic assault, but I guess you can neuter that with leyline anyway. If I left in one or the other between sinkhole and hymn I'd probably leave hymn (seems better with leyline on the board).

Phantom

04-09-2008, 02:10 PM

The one thing I'd be really worried about is seismic assault, but I guess you can neuter that with leyline anyway. If I left in one or the other between sinkhole and hymn I'd probably leave hymn (seems better with leyline on the board).

Yeah I think if you are losing to Seismic Assault, you were going to lose anyway because they have gotten a hold of Loam, Assault, as well as triple red mana. I would imagine this means your deck failed in its goal. You're not going to win the late game against Loam (and really who is?) so why try?

It's sort of like Counterbalance/Top. This deck gets crushed by a CB/Top engine, but 9/10 times it loses to it, it would have lost anyway.

Lance

04-10-2008, 06:00 AM

Against Survival, i've found Leyline very useful (Survival's decks in my meta use welder to boot). Also Snuff Out is golden against them and for me, Jitte is a little too slow to really make a difference in this matchup. I would keep the seals in, but that's just me:wink:

electrolyze

04-10-2008, 11:08 AM

i just had the brokenest play i ever made in my life,

i played on mws against terranova,

t1, fetch, ritual, ritual, seize, seize, stalker

t2, 2th land topdeck tarmogoyf:p

that really shows how broken this deck can go(1 on the 1000 time:p)

but serious, this deck can have eally insane plays out of ritual.

Arsenal

04-10-2008, 11:34 AM

i just had the brokenest play i ever made in my life,

i played on mws against terranova,

t1, fetch, ritual, ritual, seize, seize, stalker

t2, 2th land topdeck tarmogoyf:p

that really shows how broken this deck can go(1 on the 1000 time:p)

but serious, this deck can have eally insane plays out of ritual.

Wouldn't that make your Goyf be an itty-bitty?

AnwarA101

04-10-2008, 11:42 AM

Wouldn't that make your Goyf be an itty-bitty?

Probably not since he just played 2 Thoughtseizes. Proactive disruption allows you to fill your opponent's yard for your Tarmogoyf while fueling Stalker with your own yard. Its almost as beautiful as Eva Green herself.

Arsenal

04-10-2008, 11:48 AM

So, he'd be a 2/3 (2 card-types in opponent's yard)? That sounds itty-bitty to me.

AnwarA101

04-10-2008, 11:50 AM

So, he'd be a 2/3 (2 card-types in opponent's yard)? That sounds itty-bitty to me.

Your opponent still has to play spells to get back in the game. I'm not sure how bad it is to have at least 7 power on the board with your opponent not having done anything.

Joon

04-10-2008, 03:15 PM

The Goyf is very strong in that Game, even if he is only 2/3 he makes the difference between a four turn clock and a three turn clock. That's the major importance on that I suppose...

electrolyze

04-10-2008, 03:57 PM

why are you mumbling about a t2 2/3 goyf while there is a insane big stalker on the field. and when your oponent has gone rid of the stalker(what is very difficult because i seize 2x the removal) the goyf suddenly became big:laugh:

electrolyze

04-13-2008, 03:07 PM

i just played the tourney with this but didnt do so good:frown: dont because of the deck but the mu's and my mana screw but here's a list from the mu's:

game 1

i played against some weird deck with salvagers with blue for counter.

i godd*mn lost this mu because of game 1 mana screw and game 2 everything was going smooth but after i dropped a hippie and discarded many stuff as usual i dindnt topdecked any other creature:mad: so he beated me with a factorie and a trinket mage.

normally this mu is great for me but with this bad luck probably not:p

game 2

br goblins

i easily won because of insane creatures with jitte and a plague.

game 3

enchantress

i won because of game 1 i destroyed al his lands with hymn and sinkhole and game 2 i get a t1 stalker and a t3 seal on elephant grass.

game 4

faerie stompy

i won because i getted game 1 2 stalkers and the next game luck with t1 hymn, hippie and he mulled to 6.

to this moment everything was going good and i only had to win next game so i could get into t8 because i could id game 6 for enough points.

game 5

4cthresh( uwgb )

this mu is not so good and he had increadibly lucky hands.

i get game 1 a t1 hippie wich isnt getting countered and he kicks for about 3 turns till he get an stp. i thought i was save now but he only discarded bunch of crap and getted al his gooses and confidant on the table.

game 2 i was very devastating but i stp'd al my threats and gets 3 gooses and 2 confidants.

i really hate this mu now.

game 6

i had to play a friend that traveled with me to the tourney, he played ichorid

this mu is almost an autoloss for me because when i getted leyline he could easily bounce it or ray of revelation it.

so i went 3-3 but i discovered eva green is increadibly strong and this is really my favorite deck now.

the only thing i'm gonna change is the sb because i dont like many thing from it,

-4 choke
+4 explosives

i really disliked choke, i didnt do anything good in the thresh mu because when i played it, he already had his threaths. and there i not much landstil in my meta so i changed it to explosives because there so much better against thresh and many other mu's like meathooks, aggro decks and some random stuff. my meta is full of this things.

-4 leyline
+4 extirpate

in the mu's leyline was good extirpate is almost even good, like ichorid can win easily with a leyline in the game, just bounce it. and the only mu its better then extirpate is aggroloam, wich is not so bad at all i think.
extirpate is so much better against threshold and many control decks because it simply cuts the deck from a keycard. against thresh nothing is as powerfull as waste on trop then extirpate it. in my meta this card does many things more then leyline.

over all i had a great day and i really, really like eva green.

ps, im sorry if my english is not that good because im not so good at typing in english.

hebrewhammer

04-13-2008, 06:48 PM

i like smother in the main board, i run two of them. i found that it kill almost everything in legacy.

Isamaru

04-13-2008, 07:55 PM

i like smother in the main board, i run two of them. i found that it kill almost everything in legacy.

Actually, I like Smother because Onslaught uncommons are largely accessible. For only :1::b:, I get to destroy a creature of my choice at Instant-speed, as long as it has a converted mana cost of 3 or less. Plus, the creature can't be regenerated.

nitewolf9

04-13-2008, 08:56 PM

Actually, I like Smother because Onslaught uncommons are largely accessible. For only :1::b:, I get to destroy a creature of my choice at Instant-speed, as long as it has a converted mana cost of 3 or less. Plus, the creature can't be regenerated.