He's one of the best non-PG play-makers/creators ever. What the hell do you mean he never ran the offense? Dude was putting up 30+/7/6/2/1 seasons in his prime and has made multiple legitimately deserving All-Defense teams. He's easily one of the best all-around players ever.

Are we rating greatness or are we rating hardest working player?? Shaq was the undisputed leader on a 3-peat dynasty, during that span we saw him utterly dominated the league on a level that's unseen other than MJ himself.

Kobe has never come remotely close to that level of domination, he's a great volume scorer and that's about it. There is literally zero arguement you can have, just at but he's the hardest working player

Longevity is what puts Kobe over Shaq in any ranking. I suggest you read Bill Simmons Book of Basketball. He makes a pretty convincing argument as to why Shaq is not listed higher. Besides, if your only view of Kobe is that of an volume scorer, that really shows your lack of understanding for the game, or you simply haven't been a fan for long. Tell me, did you even follow the NBA from 97-2004? If you did, then you would have a much different view of Kobe as a player and his role on those early championship teams. How he was regarded as the best allround player in the game (next to T-Mac). Any Laker will tell you the importance of Kobe as a playmaker. Although Phil came down hard on Kobe at times in his first book, you will also read that Kobe was their catalyst and floor leader. When Gary Payton faded away under pressure, it was Kobe eventually challenged him and took charge.

It is not a coincidence either that Tex Winter was never a big fan of Shaq, and continuously ended up in fights with him over his lack of dedication to the game and unwillingness to be coached. Tex Winter famously left Shaq off his alltime list, and was quoted as saying he would "expose this guy as overrated".

Our opinions might differ, but it certainly isn't crazy to put Kobe over Shaq, it's actually very reasonable to do so (considering their full body of work).

He's one of the best non-PG play-makers/creators ever. What the hell do you mean he never ran the offense? Dude was putting up 30+/7/6/2/1 seasons in his prime and has made multiple legitimately deserving All-Defense teams. He's easily one of the best all-around players ever.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

****ing idiot.

Hey fukkface where did he lead his team to while he was padding those averages? Tmac had basically the same numbers, too bad he didn't force his way to playing for the most successful franchise in nba and got 3 free championships.

I ain't even trying to convince fanboys like you anything, your man love for the dude blinds you.

Anyone who doesn't have Kobe in their top 10 is fucking retarded. That being said, anyone who has Shaq/Duncan below Kobe is retarded as well.

Another thread about to ruined by Cunts3.

Have you read Bill Simmon's Book of Basketball? It's long, but definitely worthwhile if you're a true fan. He ranks Shaq below Kobe as well, and that was back in 2011. Kobe has only added to his achievements since then. Now the word of Bill Simmons is not all gospel, but he IS very knowledgeable about the game, and he certainly knows more than most people on this board. The fact that he is a self-admitted Kobe hater and STILL ranks him ahead of Shaq I think is very telling.

Longevity is what puts Kobe over Shaq in any ranking. I suggest you read Bill Simmons Book of Basketball. He makes a pretty convincing argument as to why Shaq is not listed higher. Besides, if your only view of Kobe is that of an volume scorer, that really shows your lack of understanding for the game, or you simply haven't been a fan for long. Tell me, did you even follow the NBA from 97-2004? If you did, then you would have a much different view of Kobe as a player and his role on those early championship teams. How he was regarded as the best allround player in the game (next to T-Mac). Any Laker will tell you the importance of Kobe as a playmaker. Although Phil came down hard on Kobe at times in his first book, you will also read that Kobe was their catalyst and floor leader. When Gary Payton faded away under pressure, it was Kobe eventually challenged him and took charge.

It is not a coincidence either that Tex Winter was never a big fan of Shaq, and continuously ended up in fights with him over his lack of dedication to the game and unwillingness to be coached. Tex Winter famously left Shaq off his alltime list, and was quoted as saying he would "expose this guy as overrated".

Our opinions might differ, but it certainly isn't crazy to put Kobe over Shaq, it's actually very reasonable to do so (considering their full body of work).

I started watching before MJ's second 3 peat, and I was a witness of Shaq destroying every frontcourt in the league on a nightly basis during his prime, putting an entire frontcourt in foul trouble. Just his presence in the middle is something I have never seen. Shaq had decent longevity too, him being forced out of LA contributed to his decline. Shaq over Kobe for me no contest, you don't have to agree of course.

Hey fukkface where did he lead his team to while he was padding those averages?

2000 he was putting up 23/6/5/2 and was arguably THE best perimeter defender in basketball. Won Championship.
2001 he put up 29/6/5/2 + All-NBA defense in the regular season and than put up 29/7/6/2 + excellent defense in the post-season. Won Championship.
2002 he put up 25/6/6/2 + All-NBA defense in the RS followed by 27/6/5/2 in PS. Won Championship.
2003 he put up 30+/7/6/2/1. Led team to 50 wins.

From 08-10 he put up 30/6/6/2 while leading his team to three straight Finals and back-to-back rings.

How the **** is a guy putting up those type of numbers just a scorer, you moron? During that stretch he was simultaneously one of the 2-3 best scorers, one of the best rebounding guards (the best in 03), one of the best perimeter defenders in basketball, and arguably the most skilled player in the league. How is that "just a scorer", you idiot?

Quote:

I ain't even trying to convince fanboys like you anything, your man love for the dude blinds you.

Because you have no argument. Every single reasonable fan on this forum would agree that Kobe is much, much more than just a scorer.

Have you read Bill Simmon's Book of Basketball? It's long, but definitely worthwhile if you're a true fan. He ranks Shaq below Kobe as well, and that was back in 2011. Kobe has only added to his achievements since then. Now the word of Bill Simmons is not all gospel, but he IS very knowledgeable about the game, and he certainly knows more than most people on this board. The fact that he is a self-admitted Kobe hater and STILL ranks him ahead of Shaq I think is very telling.

What exactly did Kobe add to his achievements in the past two years? Shaq had three of the most dominant Finals performances of ALL TIME. I don't think I'm going to read a book, so that other people can tell me where to rank players. I saw Shaq and Kobe play and I pick Shaq over Kobe. It's not a slight at Kobe's career either. Kobe is a top 10 player (I have him at 9).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacks3

Because your boy is done as elite player, is nothing more than a side-kick, and just had one of the worst postseasons in history.

Dumass.

So mad that your boy Kobe is at home, while Wade is winning more Rings. 21/5/5/2/1 on 52% and he's done? LMAO!

BTW, how does it feel to be a fan of one of the WORST Finals performers of ALL TIME?