Friday, January 16, 2009

Spoilers for the return of "Battlestar Galactica" coming up just as soon as I jump in a river...

"Felix, please. I just want to hang onto this feeling for as long as I can." -Dualla

There's so much to talk about with "Sometimes a Great Notion" -- so many new theories to analyze, so many mind-blowing possibilities, the revelation of the final Cylon model -- but I want to start off with the part of the episode that, in the early going as I watched it, didn't seem to belong: Dualla's story.

For half the hour, as I watched Dualla and Lee grow closer together, go out on a date, flirt, etc., I kept asking myself, "Why are they spending so much time on this? Now is the right time to rekindle the Lee/Dualla romance that nobody cared about before?" Then I began to wonder if they were focusing on her so much because Dee was the final Cylon.

But, no. It was something much more shocking, much more devastating, and much more real: Dualla was there as a worst-case scenario for how people in the fleet are reacting to the discovery of the ruined Earth. All that chipperness, all that banter with Lee, the kiss... all of that was just her attempt to have one last good moment before she died, for the last thought to go through her head before the bullet to be a happy one.

As much as I love to speculate on the nature of the Cylons, the prophecies, the opera house and all the other stuff that Ron Moore promised he'd get back to, what really grabs me about the show (as I discussed in today's column) is its humanity, the way its characters react to situations the way you imagine real, contemporary people might.

How would you react if you had been living a horrific existence for years on end, and the only thing keeping you going is the hope of one day finding this wonderful place called Earth -- and then that hope gets taken away when Earth turns out to be ruined? I like to think I can handle myself well in a crisis, but I could very easily see myself committing suicide like Dualla, or curling into a fetal position like Roslin, or getting drunk and trying for a suicide-by-Cylon-cop like Adama. This is a brutal, brutal development on what wasn't the happiest show to begin with, and I'm glad team "Galactica" (led here by writers David Weddle and Bradley Thompson and director Michael Nankin) didn't flinch from that.

Nor did the actors. At this point, I almost don't need to lay the superlatives on Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonnell and all the rest, but because it's been a long time since we've seen them play these roles, why the hell not? Roslin becoming so small and frightened on the Galactica flight deck sent a chill through my bones, as did the sight of Adama drunker than Tigh and all but begging for his own death. Those two -- and Michael Hogan, and Jamie Bamber and Katee Sackhoff and Lucy Lawless and everybody else -- bring it, week after week, episode after episode, and as the stakes for the characters has risen, so has the intensity of their performances. I'm in awe.

I'm also trying really, really hard not to devote my every working brain cell to figuring out the explanation for all we learned in this episode. Starbuck's Viper somehow nuked Earth two thousand years ago? At the same time that Kobol faced its own disaster? And Tyrol and Anders and Tory and Tigh and Ellen all had lives on this very 21st century version of Earth, among a population that seems to have been entirely Cylon? And someone (something?) that looks, acts and thinks exactly like Starbuck is now in our fleet? Even Leoben is disturbed to find out how little he really understands about all of this?

And, again, ELLEN IS THE FINAL CYLON?

Actually, that last wasn't that shocking. That's not a complaint. It's just that we've been wondering for nearly two years who the final Cylon is, and therefore I'm sure all of our mental photo arrays have stopped on Ellen's mug shot sooner or later. But it still packs a punch: as if it wasn't enough that Saul knew he had murdered his wife for collaborating with Cylons when it turned out he was a Cylon, now it turns out that they were both Cylons. And the scene itself, in which a contemporary-looking Ellen has enough awareness of the grand plan to say this:

The TV critics press tour ended a few hours ago, and therefore my brain is in no condition to properly try to explain much of what we saw in "Sometimes a Great Notion," but you're very smart people, very passionate about this show, and I suspect you'll be able to pile up the theories while I recuperate.

In the meantime, some other thoughts:

• Mo Ryan did an interview with Ron Moore about the origins of making Ellen the final Cylon, and other backstage decisions behind this episode. If it's not up now, it should be sometime later tonight.

• Though most of the characters were understandably despairing over the nature of Earth, I like that some of the characters were able to either bottle up their feelings or focus on the good things in life. Seeing Helo and Sharon playing so happily with little Hera was a nice contrast.

• I also love that they let us hear Lee's big speech to the fleet not as he delivered it, but as a joke between Lee and Dualla at the end of their date. Some of that is probably a budget thing, but it also allowed us to hear the inspirational words in an unexpected context.

• Bear McCreary's score is another element of the show whose genius almost goes without saying at this point, but I particularly enjoyed the furious drum pounding as Kara burned the corpse of the other Starbuck.

• The episode also did a great job of showing the fleet's grief in smaller ways, like how the extras in the corridors of Galactica always seemed so upset, or angry, or just worn out. Like the graffiti says, "Frak Earth."

• With Dualla's death, the number on the whiteboard is down to 39,650. Anyone remember what it was at at the start of the series? After New Caprica?

150 comments:

I knew Dee was dead the moment they featured her in the previouslys. And from the calm set to her face after Helo touched her in the ship. It didn't make it any less horrible though, it just made it Oedipal.

I think one of the most interesting moments was when the Admiral's walking to Tigh's quarters, and two guys come out of a room into the hall, wailing the crap out of each other, and he doesn't even give them a glance. I think that may have thrown me back in my chair just as much as Dualla's death (which, by the way, how great are these folks at making you care about the deaths of characters you've in some cases had quite strongly negative feelings about in the past? First Callie, then Dualla...)

I thought the Dee thing was a little too bananafish. And while the Lars von Trier despair was correct, I wish we'd see the end of the "go ahead, shoot me" standoff. But I like the other developments -- Ellen especially -- more than I hate those.

It was very good. So-ridiculously-good-I'm-frustrated-because-I've-used-up-all-my-superlatives-good good? No, but they're just getting started.

One thing I don't get, and it's probably because I'm not so into the show as the writers probably expect all their audience to be - what's the timeline of the cylons. I thought they were created like less than a century ago? The whole 2000 years thing is fine, in fact, it's freaky and great - but no one on the show seemed to raise the question. Am I not remembering things right?

And Ellen? Meh. But there was pretty much no way it couldn't be "meh."

- Did the Ellen and Tigh cylons resurrect like the other models? I had always assumed that because the newer model cylon aged, that they had somehow fled earth before joining the humans. But if they are 2,000+ years old, "reborn" must be more literal. Were they birthed? Resurrected?

- I definitely didn't infer that Starbuck nuked earth. If her Viper was ground zero, I doubt there would be enough remains to burn.

- If Ellen is officially the "final cylon", what in the heck is Starbuck? It doesn't seem possible that she is still human, especially if those are her remains. But she can't be cylon either.

- Do we know that the 13th tribe was "pure bred" cylon? I had always speculated that they might be hybrid. Since when did the humans have "cylon bone carbon dating technology"?

My interview with Ron Moore should be up in a couple hours. Sorry for the delay. He explain all the Ellen decisionmaking pretty thoroughly.

A special sneak preview for all you What's Alan Watching readers/commenters -- from Ron Moore re Ellen:

"There was something really appealing about the idea that of the final five, the two of them were a pair, and they were THIS pair -- you know, as drama-ridden as their relationship had been, the idea that there had always been something deeper and more profound at its center, I always really, really liked."

As long as Ellen doesn't suddenly get resurrected I'm great with the reveal. It seems to mean that their moving away from the Cylons as the enemy and towards a civil war. It also explains why Tigh was the XO during the webisodes - I guess they don't see him and his race as a threat.

I was shocked by Dualla's suicide. I thought they were focusing on her b/c she was the final cylon, too. Part of me expected the episode to be more action packed but what they did - dealing with the fallout of the devastation of their hopes and dreams - was perfect.

Re: Starbuck inadvertently nuking Earth: would her two warheads be strong enough to make the entire Earth a nuclear wasteland? Somehow, I don't think so. Plus, if her remains were 2000 years old, would there still be hair? Especially if she was ground zero.

Great episode! I agree with several posts - I did not infer that Starbuck nuked Earth - I thought she crashed there. Also, in reference to Cylon bone dating, I think we are supposed to assume that the Cylons provided the bone analysis, not the humans. also, do you really think Deanna is gone from the series? I just don't buy it...and what the frak is the significance of Ellen being the final cylon?

I think I've got it. The fleet goes back through the TIME HOLE that starbuck went through. The fleet comes back many years before the holocaust on Earth. However they must leave and go to Kobol. Years later, the fleet becomes the 12 tribes that found the colonies. The cylons stay on earth. When Starbuck arrives they are on the brink of war, and she is the trigger. What Starbuck is I do not know.

Wow! I feel pretty blown away by that episode. I have lots of the same questions everyone else seems to have, particularly about Starbuck. But I think what really hit me as the episode went on is how much the cylon, particularly the FF, backstories open up the story. I think the answers RM and company give us might be bigger than I had imagined. And the acting was tremendous. I felt absolutely spellbound.

Dee's death comes with a great deal of symbolism for the series. I don't know if this is what the writers intended but it struck me that Billy and Dee's innocent love on the ship in the midst of complete devastation was what prompted Adama to choose to save humanity rather than fight to the death at the start of the series. It was that love that was the hope of the human race.

Now Billy and Dee are dead -- and Dee killed herself. It really has come full circle. The hope of humanity now the despair.

The only positive image now is Helo, Athena and Hera. Human, cylon, and a mix together.

I agree with Crystal in that once Dualla's appearance in the previously on BSG clips, I knew something was up. I have to rewatch everything again, just so I can feel like Gaeta and look back at Dualla's pain that Alan expertly pointed out. I guess I was so happy to see BSG back that I missed some of the subtlety. Plus, Tyrol/Anders/Saul's new ability to see the past is pretty cool. Too bad Billy wasn't the final Cylon, I still miss his character. I look forward to figuring out what Starbuck's deal is though.

The more I think about that ending, the more my eyebrow raises. Tigh all of a sudden decides he has to wade out into the ocean in his uniform, to find a piece of debris and use his new clairsentient powers to remember stuff, and then tell the audience, LITERALLY TELL THE AUDIENCE, that Ellen was the "fifth cylon"? That's like a deus ex machina coming out of nowhere to save another deus ex machina's butt.

I doubt they ascertained the date of the holocaust through carbon-dating of bones. More likely it was based on the half-life of radioactive fallout from a nuclear weapon and the level of background radiation.

In any event, a fine episode. The significance of the distinction between Cylon and human seems to have been thoroughly effaced. This does raise questions about the relationship between the comparatively ancient Earth Cylons and the "Colonial Cylons." Did the former give rise to the latter? Or were these parallel evolutions, the idea being that the progression in machine "life" is fairly uniform from place to place -- it's just what happens when biological life attains a certain level of intelligence.

Gods, I hope hope hope the resolution of this big mess doesn't involve time travel. I mean, I love me some twisty paradoxes in my sci-fi, but with BSG it just seems like it should be something more ... unique.

I know Earth was this huge goal for them, but yaknow, they can just find another planet...

I don't think my last comment actually posted, so if this is a repeat, I apologize. The Wikipedia page with the list of all the Battlestar Galactica episodes also shows the survivor count for the beginning of each episode. The first episode was 49,998.

Blogger brian said: "I think I've got it. The fleet goes back through the TIME HOLE that starbuck went through. The fleet comes back many years before the holocaust on Earth. However they must leave and go to Kobol. Years later, the fleet becomes the 12 tribes that found the colonies. The cylons stay on earth. When Starbuck arrives they are on the brink of war, and she is the trigger. What Starbuck is I do not know."

Part of me wants to say "All This Has Happened Before, and will happen again..." yet I don't like the idea that I've devoted six years of Galactica Enjoyment to a story that is ultimately an UTTERLY POINTLESS paradox... well, it'll kinda piss me off if this is the direction they go.

Also: RE Starbuck Nuking earth.... as we saw in the episode "The Hub", vipers do indeed have nukes... but only one or two. Certainly not enough to wipe out the entire earth.

My head is still spinning from all the space/time/human/Cylon scramble, so I'll wait to see what is deduced by those smarter than me. In the meantime, I agree that the way they depicted the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual collapse as the fleet succumbed to the revelation was the heart of the episode. In a way, it was the season four premiere all over again, but instead of dealing with the Starbuck is alive/Final Four fallout, it's everyone, and absorbing an unimaginably large blow. It's not a lot of forward momentum, but I'm glad they spent the entire time dealing with the fallout, combined with a few key revelations.

Thanks to Mo for the interview sneak peak. I guess this answers my question - Ellen is objectively the fifth, not just a Tigh vision we may not be able to trust. Wow.

To answer your question, Alan, right after the initial attack the fleet was at about 50,000. After the Olympic Carrier, about 47,000. The Cloud Nine explosion took them down to about 44,000, and after New Caprica it was about 41,000. The Bob Dylan Nebula battle reduced them to 39,000, which is about their present number. Those four events account for almost everyone lost since the miniseries. Battlestar Wiki can confirm, or it could if it hadn't temporarily crashed!

I actually thought Dualla was going to snap when she had little Hera in her lap and was cooing, "You have no idea what's going on, do you?" She really sounded like she was starting to dissociate. But I still couldn't believe it when she killed herself.

I have no idea what all these revelations mean, and I'm not even going to try to guess. The hook is set.

I'm gonna blame the "Starbuck nuked Earth" thing on press tour brain mush. I first watched the episode (minus the reveal of Ellen, which wasn't on the screener) a few weeks ago, took my notes, etc. Then when I sat down to write the review today, my mind wandered to one of the theories people had after "Revelations" that somehow Starbuck had been responsible for the nuking of Earth, and wove that into my memories of the episode.

No spoiler, no misinterpretation, no me seeing footage you didn't. Just a plain and simple mistake.

Ellen Tigh-no way. I buy can the idea that she's one of the five cylons who lived on earth 2000 years ago and found a way to resurrect-but is she "the huge reveal," the thing we've been waiting for, speculating about for so long? No. Please, gods, no. The only time I emotionally connected to her as a character was at the end of the New Caprica arc, and the only sense of dramatic closure this reveal brings to the series is in the arena of Tigh and Ellen's frakked up relationship-which was tragic, yah, and undeniably destructive, but nowhere near as powerful as some other relationship dynamics we've come to care about.Adama, Apollo, Starbuck, and Roslin are the heart and soul of this show, as much as we all love Saul Tigh. And the revelations that wait down the road are going to have to be thematically and emotionally resonant for our quadrangle of damaged heroes in order for the show to end satisfyingly-in my mind, Zak Adama is the only option that would fulfill this need, as he plays into the familial framework in such a huge way. So many of the themes and overtones of BSG are cyclical, repetitive (all of this has happened before...), and since the first minutes of the miniseries opened with the Adamas (and kara) struggling with Zak's death (an event that arguably affected them more than the genocide itself), the series ending with his resurrection would make for a brilliant finale to the saga.So I can accept that Ellen is a cylon, but only if there is another cylon, a 13th-maybe like the thirteen colonies? Zak HAS to factor into the show's ending somehow. Perhaps he's not a cylon, but he's in a situation analogous to kara's, whose ship also exploded. All in all, I was disappointed with the Ellen reveal, but am comforted by the fact that there are nine more eps to go, and plenty left to learn.

I sincerely hope they don't opt for the Terminator mobius-strip time travel plot. Because that would be a huge cop out. Other follow on thoughts:

- I had always assumed that the "final" cylons had fled earth within their lifetimes. One of the shots I assumed we would see, for instance, was a younger non-bald Tigh holding three younger cylons in his arms as he fled earth.

Now it seems that the older models are all 2,000+ years old. But this re-raises all of the questions that came up when they were originally revealed. How do they age? How did they travel from earth to the colonies? Why did they lose their memory?

My assumption was that younger-Tigh had erased their memories upon fleeing 40+ years earlier. This would explain their aging and memory gaps. I had also assumed hippie Tigh had set up a Jimi Hendrix beacon to "activate" the final models in the unlikely event they approached Earth. But now it seems that they were activated well away from Earth for reasons that are more spiritual than literal. I am confused.

- Also, the 13th tribe as pure-bred cylon reveal I am still not fully buying. So the colonists would be able to date the holocaust by measuring the half life of the radiation. But how did they identify the bones so quickly?

Remember that Baltar pulled out half the hairs on his luxurious mane just trying to build a Cylon detector that would actively detect living cylons. Now, all of a sudden, he has technology that makes him CSI Caprica? My guess remains that the 13th tribe was some hybrid human / cylon tribe that was forced to flee Cobalt because of miscegenation.

I had been assuming all along that the final cylon would also be the big string-puller/Great Cylon God...but I guess if Ellen is the fifth, Anonymous at 12:12 am is right that that person/Cylon/thing must still be out there somewhere. That actually makes sense, that all 12 Cylons were somehow created by something else vs. one creating the other 11. And among other things, 12 isn't really a perfect number for the Cylons as much as it's the recent 7 + 5 (lucky? fated?) survivors from Earth.

Alan, for strikethroughs, either "s" or "strike" between the carrots should work.

Also: RE Starbuck Nuking earth.... as we saw in the episode "The Hub", vipers do indeed have nukes... but only one or two. Certainly not enough to wipe out the entire earth.

Probably not, however, it could have been the catalyst. You've seen "War Games"? Or any other nuclear war movie, for that matter? Side A fires their nukes, side B retaliates, and everyone dies. Perhaps Starbuck's crash, and subsequent nuke detonation was percieved as an unprovoked attack, which started a global thermonuclear war. She is the harbinger, after all. Possible, unlikely, but possible. I'm still leaning towards the crappy wormhole/time paradox thing though.

Here is my theory: the Cylons of the 13th tribe/Earth of 2000 years ago are NOT machines. They were not skinjobs. They are (or were, I suppose) humans. "Cylon" is the name of their tribe.

Somehow, the "Cylons" that attacked the colonial fleet and destroyed the 12 colonies in our present time have descended from the remnants of the originally-human 13th tribe. Perhaps the 7 models that we knew of previously, the ones with many copies, were first brought to life as genetic clones of Original Cylons, I'm not sure.

But it seems clear at this point that if the 13th tribe were Cylons, they were not machine Cylons as we think of them.

Maybe some survivors of the 13th tribe that survived the holocaust on Earth (perpetrated by their own machine servants?) were left floating around in space for 2000 years, until they came across the Colonial Cylons, who were exiled after the first war. It was these descendants of the 13th tribe, the human Cylons, that gave the machine Colonial Cylons the technology we see them with now - the 13th tribe for some reason helped these machine Cylons and created the skinjobs for them. This cycle (of machines destroying humans, human survivors floating around space looking for a home, humans befriending cylons, cylons destroying humans) would fit nicely with "all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again".

Of course this doesn't explain how 5 of the original cylons have been reborn, nor Starbuck. But that has to fit in somewhere. The 13th colony, and the final five, are not machines, but human - just a different strain of human.

What a fabulous show. I loved the episode, for too many reasons to describe in a comment. However, one thing to add to the discussion: Lee and Starbuck had a conversation somewhere in there where she points out that Lee needs to make decisions, because its not until a parent dies that a person reaches their full potential, and that Leoben used to say that children were merely replacements for their parents. This suggests a certain lack of independant thought. I think that is perhaps metaphorical, explaining the seeming Cylon immortality. Tigh may well have been reborn repetitively, explaining his - and the other final cylons - ageing process?

I keep thinking to three things - Ron Moore's desire for a "God" storyline, the indication of a cycle, and the Ship of Lights comparison that has always been made.

So, this has be wondering something. But first, for those that don't know, the Ship of Lights storyline revolved around humanoids that were, to save me time right now, angels.

I am wondering right now if the Final Five are "angels" of sorts and that a "God" of some sort gives birth to civilizations across the galaxy. People are given free will to decide how they live. If their civilization should get troubled, the Final Five are sent to try and offer assistance of some sort. If all else fails, a harbinger of death is sent. All along, though, people have free will and the ability to change their destiny. Some societies don't, and they end up dying.

So ... maybe Earth was a dying society and the Final Five couldn't do anything. They know the drill and know that they will be reborn. Another civilization was created by this "God" entity, the colonies. Things started falling apart, so the Final Five are reborn there. A harbinger of death was sent in the form of Starbuck, an angel of sorts. Starbuck is sent to show them what might happen to their society, by bringing them to Earth. The people can still change things, depending on how things go.

this idea though, doesn't really address why 13th are cylons, unless the same "God" entity decides to cast his former society that failed as the slaves to his new, as a sort of punishment?

For the person that mentioned Zak above, maybe Zak is this "God" entity, creating himself as Adama's son to see if he can change things.

Admittedly, a lot of holes in this idea, but it's going to be fun finding the end.

-The suggestion that Saul and Ellen may have spent 2000 years in a series of dysfunctional marriages is pretty beautiful.

-What happened to Dualla was perfect. It's not just that she was a case study in post-Earth fleet grief, it was the logical end for her character arc: she went through losing Billy to a bullet, and then Lee sporadically to whatever Lee and Starbuck had going on, and then Lee again to the Quorum. And she kept all of that inside. It gives that seemingly a little overplayed farewell ceremony where she and Lee said temporary goodbyes back in episode 2 (I think) of this season a lot more meaning in retrospect. Actually this episode makes virtually everything meaningful in retrospect. Even the love quadrangle tons of people didn't like in S3 now has some tragic resonance. The only things that come to mind that this episode doesn't excuse are Black Market and Romo's ghost-cat.

I'm not sure if it was to further Dee as a red herring for the final cylon, but when she talked about occasionally forgetting her old self (in the picture) was her, I couldn't help but remember the Final Fivers who forgot (but vaguely remember) their old lives too. Add to this Kara and her apparent former life, and the possibility of Baltar having been through a similar occurrence on Caprica, and I have no idea what it all means.

I initially thought that Starbuck's crash set off the nuclear explosion, although her hair wouldn't have lasted 2000 years. I do think she had something to do with the destruction of the Earth... maybe the time shift caused the explosion.

I was surprised and shocked that Dualla killed herself, but it does make sense now that I think about it. I thought the focus on her was to reveal that she was the Cylon, but the focus on her in the previews was a dead giveaway that something was going to happen to her.

I did not come out of that episode thinking that Ellen was definitely the final Cylon. If Ron Moore is confirming it, then fine, but there needs to be more explanation about why the final five are so important for me to buy Ellen as one of them.

Starbuck is going to be one crazy mess in the home stretch... seeing one's decomposing self would freak out the most stable person, and she wasn't that stable to begin with.

I agree completely-Dee's ending was spot-on perfection. I have experienced, in the past, an annoyance with her character that has bordered on hatred: her "I'll marry you even though I am fully aware of the fact you are in love with someone else" acceptance of Lee's proposal in particular stuck out to be as such an example of weakness in a show so full of strong, compelling female characters...so when Lee and Dee began to rekindle the ol' never-really-worked-to-begin-with romance, I was less than enthused. Really, kicking off season 4.5 with a Lee/Dee date?!?! And then Dee took off her wedding ring, put a gun to her head, and pulled the trigger--my jaw hit the floor. The first feeling was shock, I think, and then almost a guilt...guilt for never understanding her character, guilt for blaming her and dismissing her without reason...Just like you said, everything, EVERYTHING relating to Dee's character now carries a special resonance, speaks to the immense tragedy of a woman clinging to every vestige of happiness that she can, in order to not fall into the void of despair. Even her miniseries spontaneous kiss with Billy-a desperate attempt to grab onto a handhold of happiness in love in the face of unspeakable tragedy and loss.And her love for Lee-dumb, yes, and weak, maybe, and also unwarranted. But why did I blame her for that? The same argument could be made for Lee and his feelings for Kara, and I love them together. Was I being sexist, or just irrevocably committed to my fervent love for Starbuck and Apollo as an entity...who knows. All I know is that I misunderstood Dee as a person, and that her death sheds light on a measure of hopelessness of which I was before unaware, a deep-rooted despair coupled with a desperate desire to cling to happiness that makes me feel for her character. And for the first time, I looked at Lee, grief-stricken with Dee's jacks, and blamed him-blamed him for marrying her, for trying so hard to be in love with her when he must have known he could never be, blamed him for cheating, blamed him for turning to her in the midst of an apocalypse when he needed a shoulder to lean on, relying on her and taking her support for granted when they both knew, deep down, that it was never going to be. And again, my blaming of Lee, in this situation, is not completely warranted (part of what makes BSG such an emotionally rich, though-provoking show-but that's another discussion). All I know is that I always thought Dee's departure from the show would be a positive thing, and that tonight I am very, very sad, and deeply moved, by her tragic death.

To me, it's pretty clear that Viper/dead Starbuck is from the episode when Starbuck flew into that "eye"/portal/hole in the gas giant and Lee saw her ship explode. It's pretty clear that some unknown force then transported her to Earth and somehow resurrected her or copied her and sent her back to the fleet.

Terrific episode and a great start to the final season. It's a crime that these actors never get the Award recognition they deserve, because they are all top notch.

Wonderful episode. Something struck me while reading the Mo Ryan's interview. As soon as we got Tyrol's flashback to his old life on Earth, I spent the rest of the episode waiting and wanting to see Tigh's flashback, maybe because he's the most interesting of the four, but just as they set up Dee's suicide without telegraphing it (for many viewers at least), I think they set this up, too. They gave us the first shot of him looking at the ocean, then kept him off Earth, had Adama bring up Ellen, had Tigh be the stronger man for once. Subtle.

A lot of other folks have said the things I wanted to say so I'm not going to rehash it all now. But really, what a frakking great episode.

I also have to say I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Baltar resuming some sort of professional scientific role -- made me recall him in season 1 sort of way. Remember when this guy was the foremost scientific mind of his time? Yeah, it was nice to see him put aside his strange little cult and do some real work for a change =).

I just finished watching "The Sopranos" a few weeks back and the Dee storyline was very similar to the storyline in the 6th season premiere of "Sopranos" episode. This peripheral character can't take the life anymore and ends it. I wonder if Ron Moore was inspired by that?

I thought Dee was the fifth cylon for a split second, once i saw her crying on the raptor, i knew it was curtains for her.

ELLEN? I blame Baltar, had he just made a cylon detector way back in season 2 (or was it season 1?), we would have known she was a cylon and all this mystery could have been avoided.

A while back i had a theory that humans on Earth weren't humans but Cylons, and while it was a lot more complicated (and nerdy) than the seed that was planted in the episode, I'm glad i was still sort of right. Which means Cylons are really humans and the humans are aliens, in terms of earth (trippy).

was anyone else thrown by the poorly timed KFC "Frak Pack" commercial that debuted in the break immediately following Dee's suicide? totally pulled me out of the moment

What? I know in the current economic climate you can't be too high-minded about advertising, but doesn't someone at Sci-Fi actually review ad placement before it goes to air? After all, if my memory serves didn't one of the networks screen 'Schindler's List' totally ad-free because it was decided that, given the subject matter, any advertising would have been beyond tasteless?

I'm perfectly happy with the Ellen reveal. It opens up some great story possibilities. And really, I was hoping they'd dispense with the "final cylon" mystery quickly - of all the questions BSG asks, it's the least interesting one. I love this show because it frames difficult questions in engrossing ways, not because it ties everything up neatly.

I gather that was a side-effect of the mid-season break. Originally this episode would have aired one week after the last whilst people were still arguing over the state of Earth, and the revelation of the Final Cylon would have just been one of a whole host of mysteries addressed, not 'the' big one.

"as we saw in the episode "The ub", vipers do indeed have nukes... but only one or two"

Those Vipes had been outfitted by the Cylon basestar with nukes specifically to take out the resurrection hub. Normally Vipers do not come equipped with nukes. Originally Galactica only had 5 left, not enough to put one on each Viper.

"1) Did anybody else miss the intro? Are they dispensing with opening credits now that the search for Earth is over?"

David Eick said a while back that a lot of these back ten episodes run over-time, but because of the information they contain cutting them down is more difficult than normal. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few more episodes where they cut the titles to make room for more drama.

That makes me wonder what next week's intro will say: "SEVEN ARE KNOWN, FOUR ARE IN THE FLEET AND IT REALLY SUCKS TO BE THE OTHER ONE BUT THEY MIGHT TURN UP AGAIN OR SOMETHING, WHO KNOWS?"

What is wrong with the Ellen reveal? Why is there so much animosity towards her? Why should the final five be some sort of god-like, all-knowing beings?

Legend, mythology, religion. They all have an element of truth as a starting point, then over generation after generation they get built up and twisted into something completely different. It may be happening here too.

People who want all the explanations delivered in a neatly tied package do not seem to be watching the same show the rest of us are watching.

The strength of this show is in portraying the characters' reactions to the hand they are dealt. As such, this episode was superb.

Wow. RIP Dee. And to think I never cared much for her... yet her death was really a punch in the guts.

I don't really have much to say about this wonderful episode, and can only repeat what I wrote about 'Revelations' (quoted by Mo Ryan!):

“When [executive producer] Ron Moore says that faith is at the center of ‘BSG,’ I don't take it as a sign that all the final explanations will be supernatural, with some Beings of Light or other deus ex machina; but that the show is about what you can cling to and [how you can] keep your sanity when you have lost everything.

What have those people left to cling to? Nothing. Rarely has a book, movie or TV series shown a whole civilization in such complete despair.

Re : identifying Cylons, keep in mind the last time this was an issue, they were trying to do it while keeping the subject in question ALIVE. There was no option of checking bones and stuff like that.

Indeed. They established in the miniseries that Baltar had no difficulty telling human from Cylon remains (when he examined Leoben's body). The problem with the Cylon detector stemmed solely from keeping the test subject alive.

If I understand correctly, this means that when we heard "All Along the Watchtower", it wasn't some song that the audience heard as that song but was probably something else in the heads of the Cylons; it really was "All Along the Watchtower".

This whole episode I was constantly confused how bad of shape that "earth" really was in. Afterall there signs of life and plants recently growing all over the place. The dead vines on the wall that Tyrol touched. The brown grass and trees when Starbuck was searching for her signal. Where on earth did Starbuck get all the dead wood for her bonfire? All that stuff had to be growing recently. It's hard for me to believe that the nuking took place 2000 years ago on earth.

I think one of the main questions is what does Cylon really mean. Suppose everyone in the 13th Tribe and who resided on Earth was originally human. Suppose also they found a way to resurrect as a means to live forever. At least some of them felt that they had the foundation in place for such a thing. So their human self dies, downloads into a fabricated body, and that is what a Cylon is--a human mind in the body of a fabricated body. Maybe? And perhaps they discovered this 2000 years ago, pissed off the gods, and bad things happened. Maybe. It's a stab in the dark, but it's something to consider.

This whole episode I was constantly confused how bad of shape that "earth" really was in. Afterall there signs of life and plants recently growing all over the place. The dead vines on the wall that Tyrol touched. The brown grass and trees when Starbuck was searching for her signal. Where on earth did Starbuck get all the dead wood for her bonfire? All that stuff had to be growing recently. It's hard for me to believe that the nuking took place 2000 years ago on earth.

I certainly am not an expert on nuclear fallout, but I imagine after 2000 years that many things would in fact be able to grow, especially plant life, but that doesn't mean the place would be inhabitable by humans, who are pretty fragile when it comes to that kind of thing.

As someone else mentioned, I agree the fifth cylon reveal suffered greatly from the break...and it being the final reveal. After making Tigh a cylon, you would think the final reveal would be -more- shocking. Ellen is a complete afterthought.

I also doubt there's ANYONE who watched any Ellen scenes and thought to themselves "Gee, I hope they bring this plotline back". She was always one of the most criticized characters, and I definitely don't look forward to it.

Had RDM dropped the four reveal in the third season finale and instead spaced these out, leaving Tigh for last, it would be fine. Going for shock over story really lessens the whole story, IMO.

Apparently i came to some different conclusions than the rest of you. Once on Earth, Chief, Sam & Tigh all had memories that were triggered by something there: the shadow on the wall for Chief, the remnant of the guitar for Sam, & the little metal door (post office? deposit box?) for Tigh. When Dee picked the jacks up out of the dirt is when she really lost it. Is that because they triggered her memory of being a child there & playing jacks? Does she realize then that she is a cylon & decides then to kill herself? [Many times a depressed person who has made the decision to go through w/ suicide is overcome w/ calm & even happiness.] When Lee is going through her things at the end he finds some jacks. Are those the jacks from her childhood? Obviously they meant something special to her. Also, let's not forget that 6/Ellen is pregnant w/ Tigh's baby. If the 13th tribe of cylons can reproduce that way it would explain a lot. Is everyone who's left a cylon? And is D'Anna's remorse when she sees the face of the fifth cylon because she sees not one, but all of their faces & realizes that they nuked entire planets of their brethren?

All's I am saying is there's an important symbol in Dee's childhood picture, she had a ball and jacks in her personal effects, and she was humming a song before she killed herself.

What symbol? What's important about a ball and jacks, besides being a symbol of lost childhood? And what song was it? It didn't sound like the BG version of "All Along the Watchtower."

As for Ellen: I seem to remember that when Baltar was doing the Cylon tests, they left it ambiguous whether or not Ellen was a Cylon. Did we ever actually see her results? We just had Baltar's word for it.

I also doubt there's ANYONE who watched any Ellen scenes and thought to themselves "Gee, I hope they bring this plotline back".

I like her. One of my favorite scenes on this show was when she got bombed at the dinner party and started playing footsie with Apollo. And I love that Adama used her faithlessness to try to provoke Tigh into killing him. Kind of explains why Tigh drinks, doesn't it?

If Baltar has the capability to ascertain than a series of bones are conclusively Cylon after inspecting them for two hours- shouldn't he have been able to settle questions about Starbuck back at the beginning of the season? Nobody thought to yank him from his sex-den for that?

We saw him accurately detect Cylon blood in Boomer in Season One (though he lied about it... I never really got why he wouldn't tell someone). I believe a few episodes earlier had him testing Ellen, but apparently keeping the results to himself... I don't have a cohesive theory figured out, but this is gonna drive me nuts.

I was just thinking the same thing about Tigh...and several of the other 'final five.' Tigh was a drunk. Ellen was sexually promiscuous, Tyrol had a secret affair with an officer. These three especially had some huge moral failings. Bigger than some. Makes me wonder if they weren't acting this way because deep down inside they knew or remembered that the destruction would repeat itself over and over and over.

I am thinking of their 'resurrection' as some sort of mind download into, not a body, but a receptacle of some sort. Knowing that eventually, the cylons would be 'recreated' and their memories eventually downloaded into new bodies. Almost like that TNG episode from many years ago when they discover a probe and Capt. Picard 'relives' an entire life on a planet that no longer exists. Only to find out he was unconscious a matter of moments.

Loved this episode -- might have been the best of the entire series for me, or at least of the last two seasons. A beautiful rhapsody of despair, hitting the full range of notes from numbed disbelief to bellowing rage. Aside from that, words fail me.

I guess this is my point about the dead plants. Why are they brown and dead now? If the planet was nuked 2,000 years ago, and then the plants grew back, wouldn't the plants be green now? Or did the fleet show up in the winter time, so the only reason the plants and grass are brown is because its winter? So what's the problem, just wait until the next spring and start growing new plants. Or is the point that the fleet was looking for more than just a livable planet. They were looking for a thriving 13th tribe, and instead found a long-dead civilization. Ok fine. So now they are in search of a livable planet? I think they just found one.

Anonymous, it was mentioned during the episode to warn everyone about eating or drinking anything while they were there due to the high levels of radiation that still existed. It was not a liveable planet.

maybe the sentence being crossed out is a testament to it being left for dead, probably due to all the '?' comments, but starbuck's viper nuking earth 2,000 years in the past? i'm not going to put it physically past the BSG minds, though they're normally really good about staying within the rules of physics, I think such an idea as Starbuck nuking Earth, or having anything to do with Earth's destruction detracts way too much from the BSG's philosophical side to be true. i think the idea of a society, even an all cylon society, destroying themselves, is far more in line with the ethos of battlestar which is that we are more often than not our own worst enemy. We already saw a civil war in the cylon fleet, are we really going to put war past any sentient creature with the means of waging it?

2000 years ago humans lived under cylon prototypes. They rebelled and nuked the shit out of them. Unbeknownst to the humans some cylons infiltrated their colonies to rebuild themselves.

Fast forward 2000 years, the cylons have rebuilt themselves and they in turk nuke the humans. Everything has happened before will happen again.

Caprica will reveal the true nature of a Cylon. What if life can be continued? What if you can transport your being into another body and continue? Cylons are just humans with artificial bodies. They've mastered death. Every Cylon once started as human but then became Cylon, they transported their thoughts into a cloned version of themselves.

They're cyborgs but only robotic to maximize the extension of ones life.

Or maybe they're all variations of this, maybe their different evolutions of Cylons which are just cyborgs. Maybe Kara Thrace was transported into another one of her body...maybe there's still remaining Cylons alive, hidden somewhere on Earth. Maybe Kara Thrace will be their destruction but in turn they're all be resurrected

Kate Vernon is a really good actress and Ellen is one of the few characters in the BSG universe with a decent sense of humor. I missed her when she left, literally thinking "Gee, I hope they bring this plotline back." She has great chemistry with Tigh of course, but also with Cavil, the Adamas, Starbuck, Baltar . . . how many of the other possibilities for the final model could we say that of? Gaeta? No. Starbuck and Baltar were always interesting final cylon contenders, but ultimately their stories are more compelling if they aren't. Kandyse McClure (Dee) is a good actress, but she doesn't have a rich enough history with enough of the main characters to make her an interesting cylon (kind of like Anders.) Etc., etc. Just thought it was weird that Ellen was getting savaged in the comments (here and elsewhere) and wanted to register a counter-opinion.

Besides, it's going to be fun to watch her and Caprica Six fight over Tigh.

Lots of interesting comments - I believe my take reconciles a few things from last night... not perfectly, but then, again, I don't know what else to think.

Humans are cylons, who are a step below in the evolutionary scale. Cylons evolved on earth and spread out. The twelve colonies that took off became separated from Earth and over time, "Cylon" lost it's meaning. During this time, the 12 tribes "Skin Jobs" (Adama, Roslin, et.al) slightly evolved to have the medical differences Baltar has spotted. Both Cylons and Humans developed AI Robots to help them, and they eventually turned on them and destroyed them.

The inherent difference between a cloned cylon and a rebirthed cylon is there are NOT copies of the final five (only one at a time).

Earth is the original resurrection ship. The hubs were poor copies created by the AI cylons - thus the Cylon clones were limited in how varied they could be (seven). Message: Save the planet - it's the only one we've got.

That would explain Starbuck's resurrection and relocation - as well as the "five".

Yes, it opens other questions up - like how did the Skin Job Cyclons know there were five others if their AI timeline was different?

Actress Kandyse McClure improvised this melody on set during production. She described that “there was no previous discussion about it, it was just kind of stuck in my head – at first I wasn’t even really aware that I was humming. It was just comforting to me in that moment – something like the hymns my grandmother would sing around the house when I was a little girl.”

What I'm left wondering is, why those five? Why, in a world filled with cylons, are Tori, Anders, Tigh, Tyrol and Ellen the only ones who resurrect elsewhere? Am I the only one who thinks that maybe the show's ultimate joke is that EVERYONE is a cylon? Starbuck's ship and corpse are on Earth but there she is, walking around. How can humans and skinjobs have children? As soon as they said Earth was the cylon homeworld, it's a fascinating notion, but how much sense does it really make? What if our belief of cylon evolution is wrong? We've always believed that somehow the toasters built the skinjobs, but we've never really been given a straight answer about how the skinjobs can to be. What if (if you accept this idea), humans are in fact, skinjobs, who have moved through the universe, ending up on Caprica and building the toasters. We've always thought that toasters came before skinjobs. What if it's the other way around? I guess this theory has holes in all over, and is probably way false, and actually spits on the stories of human survival the show has told for four years, but you must admit things are a little fishy. Anyway, I kind of wished Kate Vernon's name wasn't in the credits. As soon as I saw that, I said "Ellen's the fifth", and as the episode ticked away and she didn't appear, I became more and more sure of it. Great episode, holy crap about Dee, and I'm so glad the wait is over.

Anonymous person who posted about Dee's suicide and its revelations about the nature of her character-

I just wanted to say that what you wrote was utterly brilliant, and very moving. I've never been able to get a handle on Dee, though not for lack of trying. What you wrote was extraordinarily insightful, not just in terms of the show, but in terms of understanding something very fundamental about the multilayered ways in which a single human being can respond to adversity. Hats off!

I think the 13th colony is still out there and they were the ones who recreated Kara and sent her back to the fleet so she could lead them back to Earth and eventually, the 13th colony. The final 5 were theorized to be unique and they were - unique in the fleet. Nothing says they can't be resurrected at the new home planet of the 13th colony? I think they will eventually find the 13th colony and Ellen will be there waiting for Saul. I just have no idea of how they will work the "harbinger of death" thing with Kara.

Dualla's suicide immediately had me bawling my eyes out. It still brings tears to my eyes when I think of the devastation she must have felt to cause her to kill herself. I loved the set up - made it completely unexpected. It was heart wrenching when you realize the somewhat stunned looking, and obviously forced, joy on her face was a result of her desperate need to just die while happy.

I'm so torn. I can't wait for the last 9 episodes but with each, we get closer and closer to the end of Battlestar Galactica and I'm not ready for it to end.

So does anyone remember if D'Anna was ever rude to Ellen? Remember when D'Anna's in the Opera House and apologizes to the 5th Cylon for not showing enough respect?"

D'Anna apologized to one of the final 5, not necessarily the last of the final five (i.e. Ellen). She could very easily have been apologizing to Saul Tigh for the torture he endured on New Caprica.

As for other comments re: Ellen's reveal, I don't think the significance is the fact that Ellen is the final Cylon but rather what she says in Tigh's flashback. It is, as with most thing BSG, a sign of things to come.

Well, the 12 unique Cylon models concept is now defunct. There were 12 unique models in the Caprica universe but now, even the Cylons are surprised to find a world of humanoid and centurions they've never seen before. In Tyrol's flashback, he is in public surrounded by Cylons, none of whom look like any of the 12 models we know of. I wonder how this will be explained.

Many have made comments regarding Starbucks viper landing on Earth 2000 years ago, but there is no evidence of that. Could have landed recently and has nothing to do with the destruction of Earth. No one ever saw or tested her viper or body. Neither she or Leoben told anyone about it and she burned her own body. There are still a ton of questions regarding Starbuck left to be answered and more were created by the events in this episode.

I just read that Deanna really stays on Earth and that is the last we see of Lucy Lawless. Well, that is disappointing. They could have written her off in a bigger and more explicit way.

mrgalss: Going to respectfully disagree with you here. It might not have been the biggest send-off in the BSG-verse (especially in an episode that felt like a being under constant fire), but it was so sad and just right. Look at the voyage D'Anna has been through -- first the hard-ass enforcer who was playing the Colonials like a cheap fiddle in 'Final Cut'; was mapiulating Caprica-Six and Boomer into boxing themselves in 'Downloaded'. Then everything changed on New Caprica -- she violated two of the most basic Cylon taboos (against suicide and seeking out the Final Five). She was directly responsible for the boxing of her entire line -- an event which she was the only one to survive. You could argue she was even directly responsible for the Cylon Civil War.

She gave up everything, tore her own race apart, for her vision. And it's all come down to a radioactive cinder. And she's just had enough; and while her suicide isn't as dramatic as Dee's, it's every bit as real and tragic. One the fleet has gone, the only other beings who might find her are the Cavils and their allies. I think if that happens, her life expectancy would be measured in seconds. End of Line.

Not so sure about that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't RDM always said that there are only 12 models, but as the Final Five explore their natures they (and everyone else) will gradually find they are very different from the Significant Seven? And we've certainly seen plenty of occasions on this show where flashbacks/visions/psychotic breaks/whatever only tell a small part of the truth.

- Some C1/C2 survivors also settle near Earth at the new home Adama later promises to deliver

Exodus #3 (circa 70 BA to present)

- H3 reinvents C3 (with involvement of C1/C2 descendants/survivors)

- C3 rebels against H3; H3 prevails

- C3 reinvents Human Form Cylons

- C3 rebels against H3; bad things happen

- H3 flees and C3 chases; some C3 stay on or return to 12 colonies

- C1/C2 survivors steal Kara’s ovary for human resurrection technology to level the playing field in re mortality/immortality; Kara dies and is resurrected; C2/C1 survivors collect remains and deposit on Earth and guide Kara back with the fleet to attract H3 to Earth

I don't really know that I have anything to say - I think pretty much anything has already been said. But I thought it was a great episode - shocking, powerful, thoughtful, and intelligent. BSG at its best.

I did want to address one minor comments made in this thread.

- To David Richardson:

Did anyone else notice that Kara said to Leoben, "God Damn help me with this..." (emphasis on the singular)

I don't think so. In fact, I specifically noticed that she said "Gods Damn", simply because it having been so long since I last watched the show I found the plural initially jarring.

I'm not so sure that the Human Cylons were created by the Robotic Cylons. My bet is on Humans creating Human Cylons, not as robots but as the cure to death. The difference here is that Robotic Cylon didn't evolve by itself as most case scenarios present futuristic robots. Rather, humans with all intent and purposes created a lifeless form of themselves that only needed a download of a person's identity. Hence, death was avoided.

I bet the first development only the rich could do this and over time were viewed as gods. A class society was established. We had the normals humans who could not extend their lives and then the humans who could just download themselves into a new body. Eventually, as noted a rebellion occurs wiping out the so called "Gods."

The episode title "Sometimes a Great Notion" is the same as a Ken Kesey Novel. (He also wrote "One Flew over the cuckoo's nest") He took his title from a song "Goodnight, Irene" that has in the lyrics:"Sometimes I live in the countrySometimes I live in the townSometimes I get a great notionTo jump into the river an’ drown"

Given the Adama dialogue with Tigh, it seems they were referencing this song. I don't know the tune but I thought Dee might of been humming it.

I think she killed herself because she had a memory of being on the planet as a young girl and believed she was Cylon.

Quickly for Anonymous at 1:32 about all the plants being brown: They did actually shoot the scene on Earth, you know. Those withered plants are real!

I'm happy with Ellen. Being someone almost random restores believability to all five surviving the holocaust. It makes fate feel more like a result than a cause.

Revealing the fifth lets us focus once again on humanity (and cylonkind) at large instead of "who is the fifth?" That question was getting a little sensational.

And look at poor Adama/Roslin. They started out as atheists using religion as a carrot, then they started eating their own carrots. Now they just discovered those aren't carrots, in fact they might not even be food.

Very nicely played, Moore!

I have no idea what's ahead, but I have a suspicion that Cavil knows a lot, and lobotomized (sense a theme?) his six cylon buddy models so that he could control them better.

I have no idea what's ahead, but I have a suspicion that Cavil knows a lot, and lobotomized (sense a theme?) his six cylon buddy models so that he could control them better.

As far as the Cavils go, I have a funny feeling they don't know half as much as they think. As I said up-thread, one of my favourite moments in the episode was the scene in the forest where Leoben just freaks out because it turns out that he doesn't know jack about Kara Thrace's destiny after all.

In a funny way, the Ones and Two are mirror immages of each other in their absolute certainty that they're right, and everyone else is wrong.

I think it would be much more interesting if what you see is what you get with the Cavils -- they see themselves as machines. Nothing more. Thinking about the Final Five is such a repulsive deviation from their programming, that starting a genocidal civil war is of no more weight than pulling a faulty component from a jump engine and throwing it away. He's being absolutely true to HIS idea of what the Cylon are.

You know what I think could have been the tag line for the final ten episodes: EVERY TRUTH YOU THINK YOU KNOW IS A LIE.

It's happened to everyone else on this show, why should Cavil miss out on the fun?

I don't disagree with any of your point! I just meant: I had no idea that was really Lawless' last scene on the show, especially since it was sandwiched between Dee's death and the Final Fifth revelation.

As one of my favorite characters, I would have liked Deanna to exit with a, hum, bang. Ron Moore in his podcast seems to believe it is obvious that really is the last we see of her. I didn't think so. Adama implied he would commit suicide; Deanna implied she would stay on Earth. No way to know if either of those threats would actually happen. Why not show the last Raptor leaving Deanna behind?

I believe Starbuck is half Cylon. Leoben (am I spelling that right?) could be her father, that would help to explain this connection that the two of them seem to have. I seem to remember seeing Starbuck's mother at some point but not her father...am I wrong about that? So who is to say that she wasn't resurrected somehow? It seems to be a reasonable explanation after the reveal of Ellen as the fifth cylon.

Also in regards to the reveal of Ellen, it reminds me of the end of The Sopranos. Everyone had all these ideas about what would happen to Tony at the end of the show, would he be caught? Killed? Enter witness protection? Invariably a large chunk of the audience would be disappointed, so David Chase did what I think no one expected...nothing! He left it up to us. And I don't know about you, but Ellen really hadn't crossed my mind. I figured a bunch of people might think it's Starbuck, Roslin, Baltar...but was a there a large group out there that thought Ellen? I didn't. So I think what they did was give us (or maybe just me) an answer that was really unexpected. Now the question is, where do we go from here? Man, poor Tigh. In a show where everyone is dealing with the kinds of decisions and revelations that hopefully none of us ever have to experience, the creators have really wrung this character through the wringer! Man, give the guy a break!

Such a great episode. I'm thoroughly impressed that they can give the fan base such intriguing answers and at the same time raise so many new questions. Great work.

"I just have no idea of how they will work the "harbinger of death" thing with Kara."

While her corpse certainly was not 2000 years old, it is possible that Kara *was* the harbinger of death, as opposed to she *will* be the harbinger of death; i.e. she showed up 2000 years ago and somehow signaled the end, at which point the Humans nuked all the Cylons...

Ron Moore in his podcast seems to believe it is obvious that really is the last we see of her.

Is there a new Ron Moore podcast available? If so, where? I've checked the SciFi website, and all the links for the podcast (dating back to the first season) no longer work, there's nothing coming up on my iTunes. Help, please.

I don't disagree with any of your point! I just meant: I had no idea that was really Lawless' last scene on the show, especially since it was sandwiched between Dee's death and the Final Fifth revelation.

As one of my favorite characters, I would have liked Deanna to exit with a, hum, bang.

mrglass: Thanks for the response, and I don't actually disagree with you either. I guess I might have been a little primed, because I saw an interview with Lawless months ago where she said she'd signed for only three episodes, and all her scenes were completed before the writer's strike. So I guess park of me, while totally caught up in the episode, wasn't expecting her to leave Earth.

I would have LOVED to see Lucy go out kicking-arse as only Lucy can. But I thought the scene was just so beautiful and correct for the character, and Lucy and Hogan just nailed it to the floor. I do agree with you, however, that it can easily get lost in all the other narrative nukes going off around it. But I have a funny feeling it's a scene that's going to be played over and over again when the DVDs come out.

Starbuck: She was captured and some of her eggs, maybe even complete ovaries removed. This material was used to make perfect clones. Starbuck is a clone of Starbuck, with old memory downloaded into cloned body.

Why are there Cylon bones on Earth? Because the Cylons are the real humans. The whole show was about turning the original 70s show upside down. What was right, will be wrong, what was monotheistic, will be polytheistic, men (Starbuck) are turned into women, robots (Baltar) are turned into humans, beginnings are turned into ends. And going along with this gnostic message (your old god is really the devil, the devil is really god, life on earth is really hell, death really means eternal life) I would conclude: What we have come to love as the "human" characters in this show are really the robots, they think they are human, but are not and have never been. The skin-job cylons would therefore be the real humans. After all, they have the "real" religion, they have reincarnation, and they are looking for spiritual growth. The "humans" in the show on the other end are a lost case, they live their days like machines and they cannot do anything else than follow orders. There is no spirituality in these "humans", they are the real robots.

And as for Miss Dualla, well, maybe I can lay down my bitterness that she left a good man for that fatuous hunk, only to get her heart broke by him, her heart and soul ruined by her dad's lies about Earth, then her esteem finally stomped on by Lee putting on the charm 'cause, well, Starbuck's not around, is she?

I knew she was a goner once she snapped to in the ship; no one bounces back from that devastation that quickly, and then becomes the nice, supportive, talk-to-me Dualla of the earlier seasons. She's probably been the nice supportive friend all her life, and she went back to that as soon as she knew there was absolutely no one in this universe who could pull her out of this despair.

As suicide is also a 'frak you' to those left, I particularly love how she timed it to piss Mr. Crankypants Gaeta, who at least had his leg to take his mind off the loss of Earth. Again, I say it plain: Miss Dualla, vicious passive-aggressive bitch. RIP.

And may the gods grant you a reunion with Billy, who you just might deserve, by now.

"And watching Leoben -- the mystic who is always so sure he knows what's going on -- freak and run at the realisation he don't know jack? Priceless."

When Leoben runs scared, that's entertainment, people. Been waiting for that serene smirk to be wiped off his face for so long...

"Well, the 12 unique Cylon models concept is now defunct. There were 12 unique models in the Caprica universe but now, even the Cylons are surprised to find a world of humanoid and centurions they've never seen before. In Tyrol's flashback, he is in public surrounded by Cylons, none of whom look like any of the 12 models we know of. I wonder how this will be explained."

That's why I'm not thinking Ellen is the Fifth Cylon. Just cause Tigh says it don't mean it's so. He thought he was human, remember?

There could be thousands of Cylons in the fleet, courtesy of the same resurrection process. None of the Earth Cylons were special people; if they were, wouldn't have they been in shelters already, or at least aware of the possibility of a nuclear attack, and tucked away for resurrection?

Then, only five Cylons of the old skool were thought to matter; now, it might be all Buffy-last-season, and anyone who could be a Cylon *is* a Cylon. The rub was sexual reproduction -- does each Cylon generation start being human, as soon as they have babies?

I think they got their numbers from http://dance-of-ecstasy.net/dance/0103.html So "number 6" would be "he phren" (the "rational mind", which matches "Lucifer" who had a similar role in the original series), but "number 5" would be "Satan" (the old snake),"number 3" would be the "false prophet" (human senses), "Number 8" would be "Jesus" (probably meaning the power of compassion, which the number 6 are clearly displaying) and so on. This also matches with the role of "number 4" who should be the "speirema", meaning the electric force which leads to enlightenment, and sure enough he is the one removing eggs from Starbuck, probably adding some sort of virtual sperm and thus cloning Starbuck. If you want to know the resolution to this crossword puzzle you have to know who is "number 9", because that would be epistemon, meaning self-realization or deep knowledge. And the lord of this little universe would be "number 10".

Last Friday lunch-time, a friend and I were talking about who could be the final cylon. Of all the characters, living and dead, Ellen seemed to be the most logical choice. I'm glad the producers and writers of BSG went with an idea that actually made sense, rather than just choosing a character for the shock value.

How the hell do they know that? (Other than the Final Four remembering it, anyhow.) Or have the writers forgotten that they'd established that there was no way to distinguish a Cylon from a human by any test known to man? Including Baltar's completely bogus nuclear test?

Suddenly now they can establish Cylon vs Human on 2,000 year-old remains? I think not.

We got to see it in the UK last night (Tuesday) on Sky 1. NO KFC breaks guys....!

What can you say about this episode that does not contain superlatives. Stunningly written, devastatingly brutal, uncompromisingly shocking. Dee, Ellen, Adamas attempt to provoke suicide-by-cylon, Lee's buttoned up realisation of his part in his wifes death, an examination of despair, stress, the loss of hope.

Some great theories coming out on here. Matbe someone has hit the spot.....!

The two questions that still linger in my mind are raised in the 'miniseries', and I offer them only because there are important implications to them. To my knowledge they have never been answered, and may contribute to things as yet unseen.

The first - shortly before Caprica City is nuked. 6 and Baltar had been walking and 6 leaves Baltar in the Piazza 'to meet someone', we then see her walk up to someone off camera and say something along the lines of "Its you......!". That scene is set up and filmed with her body language submissive to the unseen person.

The second - when Adama returns to his quarters shortly before the closing credits and picks up the folded piece of paper lying on the table that says, 'There are only 12 cyclon models'. Who put it there?, who knew that?. Was it left there unconciously by Saul, or perhap by Adama himself? Look at EJO's face as he reads it...is it surprise regarding ominous intelligence, or restrained shock at a secret discovered?

These were pretty obviously unanswered questions at the time, and I wonder if RDM is going to use them in resolving things? I cant believe they were just red herrings for the purpose of the mini series as they raised questions, not answered them. Perhaps 'Caprica' or the soon to be filmed two hour 'Cylon' movie will resolve them? Perhaps they are not relevant at all?

The thing I love about BSG is its ability to drop things on us from left field. I certainly dont think that the big shocks are over. Keep that lateral vision going guys. Dont look to the obvious for answers.

BTW, whats with the comment that the crew say its a sad ending? Not seen that posted.

Oliver Peter Hoffmann said... Why are there Cylon bones on Earth? Because the Cylons are the real humans...

Finally, someone makes a connection with the "real" planet Earth! Thank you, sir. :-) Your comment makes a lot of sense... We'll just have to see the remaining episodes to see if things play out this way.