hello!
are there any latin scholars out there who can help me translate a seal inscription? the seal shows a man leading a horse looking coyly back over its shoulder; and unfortunately the surrounding lettering is damaged, but it reads something like' MANTIOR MENTITUR IANVA AUSTOR (or NOSTOR) EQVS'.

i've only been able to come up with some gobbledygook about 'our horse's knapsack (saddlebags?) deceives at the door' - can anyone do better? or has anyone come across a medieval tag or proverb relating to horses, doors and knapsacks that might shed light on the meaning? i'm wondering if it's some variant on 'you can't judge a book by its cover' - but would appreciate any help or info you might suggest.
many thanks,
mrs a

Without seeing the original text, however damaged, it's difficult to reconstruct anything meaningful.

Mantior is unlikely to be linked to the term for "knapsack", which is mantica in classical Latin. The "-or" ending might point to a first person singular form of a verb, but there isn't one that fits. There is, however, a surname (Huguenot?) Mantior -
see http://www.genealogyworld.net/ellen/Not ... milies.htm

On a seal, the identity of the owner usually figures prominently, although some do bear a motto or phrase of some kind.

"Equs" looks like it ought to be equus, a horse - the missing second "u" might point to the writer having very poor Latin. Some inscriptions like this were nonsense, written by an uneducated craftsman for uneducated clients, simply to look impressive. There are numerous medieval rings and brooches, for example, bearing bogus pseudo-Latin inscriptions.

It would be interesting to see the exact style of lettering used, since this would help to date the piece.

It may be worth sending a good-quality photograph to the British Museum, or Durham Cathedral Library, both of which have extensive seal collections and they may be able to shed some light on the text for you.

I have to confess to carrying in my scrip a beautifully written (by Melles of Scriptorium fame) scrap bearing the inscription "Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi". You have to transate then read the translation out loud... I tell people I was sold it by a Camelot who assured me it was an effective charm against rude diseases.

Back at the min thread though. very interesting ideed - it does look like poor Latin but that may be even more interesting than if it were the real thing. What is the full story of it? Where did it come from?

I used that one on a group of youngsters I was introducing to Latin and they got it straight away . . . which says a lot about today's youth . . . or about me The Black Knight took a little longer to get it

many thanks for the useful suggestions - and humorous interjections! sadly, can't tell you much more about the seal or show a photo. i found the reference in an old local history book on wakefield; it's an onyx seal found near sandal castle in 1760 (hence not necessarily 15th century), exhibited to the society of antiquaries in 1763, and only a line drawing made before it was lost to posterity.

the book says the inscription reads 'MANTICA MENTITUR JANVA NOSTER EQVS' although the accompanying drawing shows it as 'MANTIOR MENTITUR...' - i don't know which is right. lettering looks like debased roman capitals - definitely not gothic black letter.

hope this sheds a bit more light and sorry i can't tell you more.
mrs a

Never one to give up on a quest (tomorrow, the Holy Grail!!!!! ), I continued to dig around for anything similar.

Guess what ... in Trinity College Library, Cambridge, there resides an extremely obscure 11th/12th century copy of a manuscript by Bede which I had not previously seen (BEDA SUPER EPISTOLAS CANONICAS listed as MS B.2.32), which includes a number of later scribbles or random jottings in folio 8.

Having discovered the origin of the text helps not one bit, however - it looks like a simple random list of Latin words strung together, without any hint of grammatical construction, standard word order or intended meaning. Before some American film producer starts looking for hidden Templar/Masonic/ Hebrew secret codes in it, I will give the literal meaning of each word:

mantica a bag for the hand, cloak-bag, portmanteau
mentitur it is deceived

ianua a door, entrance (or with a door, by a door)
noster our
equus horse

It's either a recipe for a very nutritious soup, or it's a secret code, or it's simply nonsense. One other possibility is that it's a novice scribe practising his script, with an instructor calling out random words to be written down . . .