I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God. Let me ask you a question. You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"? Well, why don't you prove that? When has any order came from an explosion? I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you. Like that would ever happen. (NOT)

Non sequitor much? What does a watch in a bag have to do with what Parking Places said?[1]

You gave a testimonial that described how you were healed from your physical injuries by praying to god. You stated very clearly that such healing comes from god and you can't expect healing if you "walk in sin". PP said that he was also healed, but was an atheist who never prayed. I have similar experiences as an atheist. I "walk in sin" and have recovered from some pretty serious ailments without any prayer or intervention from any gods.

What is your explanation for why an atheist "walking in sin" would find healing without god, while many devoutly faithful believers pray and find no similar healing? You cannot hope to slip away or change the subject to "spiritual healing" or some such, because you introduced the topic of being healed of physical ailments.

That is the point you need to address.

If you want to discuss the origins of the universe or the theory of evolution, that is fine. We love to discuss those things, but not in this thread.

Aside from the point that if god wanted to, he could certainly make a working watch come out of shaking a bag of parts, right? That would be magic, not science. Science never suggests that anything magical happened in the past. That is what religion does. Every step in science has to have some evidence. Nowhere in science can we say "and then, suddenly, a miracle happened". But religious people expect us to believe in lots of miracles happening without evidence.

Logged

When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Well I see you are getting stirred up here. Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory. If evolution really happened where is the proof. Where are all the animals that are still changing today? If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today. Or, did it just stop...lol Why are there still monkeys in the trees? It is because God made them to be there. You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit. If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists. Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do. God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people. Apparently, you never really knew God at all. It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.

We do see evidence of evolution today. One everyday example: Each season, public health officials have to develop new flu vaccines, because the flu virus evolves to be resistant to previous vaccines. Since you don't think evolution happens, would you prefer that your family get last year's vaccine or the one for this year's flu? That would be much cheaper for you, and then the current vaccines would be freed up for people who believe in evolution....

If you all get the flu, you can pray and god will heal you of it. Works as well as vaccines, right?

Do you seriously think that evolution is about people coming from monkeys? Could you please read one or two basic science articles explaining what evolution is before bringing a pea shooter to a light saber fight?

ps What about the physical healing of atheists who walk in sin and do not pray? Please address the question.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:51:34 PM by nogodsforme »

Logged

When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Well I see you are getting stirred up here. Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory. If evolution really happened where is the proof. Where are all the animals that are still changing today? If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today. Or, did it just stop...lol Why are there still monkeys in the trees? It is because God made them to be there. You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit. If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists. Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do. God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people. Apparently, you never really knew God at all. It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.

Since this isn't being asked of me directly, and others can answer it better how about: Where is the evidence of anything written in the Bible? And I'm not speaking about places, objects, or even people. Where is the evidence that a worldwide flood happened and millions+ died? Where's the evidence of the Ark? Where is the evidence that anything in Exodus happened? Where's the evidence that your god exists, or heaven/hell exists[1]? Where is the evidence that the entire[2] Hebrew nation were slaves and are the ones who built the pyramids (or at least some of them)? Where is the evidence for anything written in the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source?

Where's the evidence for ID/Creationism?

If your answer is: look around you[3] then you should logout and go away. You lost. If using a variation of that, like: well, millions also believe it's true--you lose again. None of that is evidence.

Well I see you are getting stirred up here. Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory. If evolution really happened where is the proof. Where are all the animals that are still changing today? If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today. Or, did it just stop...lol Why are there still monkeys in the trees? It is because God made them to be there. You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit. If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists. Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do. God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people. Apparently, you never really knew God at all. It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.

My, you managed to combine just about every Christian trope into one post, didn't you? And a short one, to boot. I'm wondering if you were serious about this post, or if it was just an attempt to be funny.

The proof of evolution is in our DNA - that animals which are closely related share more DNA than those which aren't. But it isn't magic - you don't see an animal magically changing into another animal during its lifetime. Evolution works by changing populations over generations, and lots of them. It's still going on, just slowly. The same way that the tectonic plates move, but so slowly we don't even notice. At a quarter-inch per year, roughly, a landmass would move all of 25 inches during a hundred-year span. Evolution is the same way - it happens so slowly that we can't notice it except over a long period of time, unless we're dealing with something that has lots of succeeding generations in a relatively short period of time. That's why most scientific experiments regarding evolution have to do with bacteria and other organisms that reproduce quickly, because they can have hundreds or thousands of generations happen within a few years.

Aside from that, the only one who is trying to mislead anyone is you. I simply couldn't care less about your religious beliefs at this point, but I do take exception to your attitude about science, even though it's clear you haven't studied it and thus are ignorant of the subject.

Logged

Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

I know it is hard for someone with no understanding to make sense of God. Let me ask you a question. You believe, I am thinking in the "big bang"? Well, why don't you prove that? When has any order came from an explosion? I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you. Like that would ever happen. (NOT) Oh, and according to that theory, where did the first ameba come from that life supposedly started from, who made it??

First of all, you did a great job of changing the subject, and staying off course even after being called on it by nogodsforme. Very impressive. I was going to ask if your god removed all the metal in your back, something any halfway decent deity with healing powers would surely do, but since you're off on another tangent, I'll follow along.

But before you ask questions about the origins of the universe, about abiogenesis or about evolution, it would help if you would go to the trouble of understanding those theories and the science behind them, rather than your just depending on misinformed creationists for all of your lack of information. So I will wait patiently while you go out and get some actual information, and then we'll see if you still have questions. Right now you haven't shown a whit of knowledge about anything other than your god and his amazing technicolor miracles.You weren't convincing, but at least you stayed on subject. Now that you're strategically straying, I am hoping that you will at least pretend to be informed so that the rest of us don't have to play teacher and correct all of your misconceptions.

You don't know enough to ask the right questions, so it is safe to assume you also don't know enough to understand anybodies informed responses. And you've come at a bad time. We've had/have three malformed theists trying to teach us all they don't know, and that gets old after about 1.5 posts from any given mental misfit. So the likelihood of our being patient with you as you retry the old christian trick of lowering everyones IQ, in the hope of getting your non-point across, is minimal.

The wisest thing you could do would be come back in a week or two or better yet, a month or two, after we've reclaimed our sanity. This latest onslaught of ill-informed 'teachers' has been tiring.

I have been healed by God. I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents. I have 4 metal rods and 10 three inch screws in my low back and more screws in my neck. Needless to say I was in a lot of pain and some of the times had problems walking due to nerve damage. The doctors said I would have to be on pain pills and muscle relaxers the rest of my life, plus I needed the assistance of a cane on a regular basis. They were wrong.

Now, ma'am, before I ask, I'd like you to know I am glad you are feeling good and getting through your surgeries, and I wish for you nothing but the best. My hope would be that any of us getting back surgery of that type could get to a point of being pain free.

Where did you get the surgeries and how did god do them? Did you see god while He put the metal rods in, or did you have doctors put the metal rods in? If god has healed you, how much credit do you give doctors, or have doctors only hampered your surgeries?

You sound as though you may not have as much faith in your doctors as you do in god - is that true?

Well I see you are getting stirred up here. Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory. If evolution really happened where is the proof. Where are all the animals that are still changing today? If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today. Or, did it just stop...lol Why are there still monkeys in the trees? It is because God made them to be there. You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit. If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists. Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do. God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people. Apparently, you never really knew God at all. It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.

Wow. Now I'm not a scientist, but maybe I can help out a bit here.

Have you ever gotten a strep throat? Or something that the doctor prescribed antibiotics for?

I'm guessing that the doctor told you to take the antibiotics for the full duration 7 days or 10 days, depending on what you were taking. And the doctor said to keep taking the antibiotics, even after the symptoms went away.

You see, the reason for this is that the bacteria (do you believe in bacteria?) reproduce really quickly. So mutations happen in a very short time. If you kill off a bunch of bacteria, and just leave the ones who had a little bit of a resistance to the antibiotic, then those are the ones who will reproduce.

Here is a more scientific explanation:

Unfortunately, if a bacterium gets a resistance gene stuck into its chromosomal DNA or picks one up in a free-floating plasmid, all of its progeny will inherit the gene and the resistance it confers. Why do resistance genes persist and spread throughout bacterial populations? It's basically just Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest, reduced to a microscopic level -- bacteria with these genes survive and outgrow susceptible variants. And our own less than judicious use of antibiotics actually selects for these resistant types!http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/cellular-microscopic/question561.htm

So once you've got a bunch of bacteria that are resistant to your antibiotics, then you are in trouble. Maybe a different antibiotic will kill them off. But it is going to be harder.

Of course, if you don't believe in bacteria, then this example might not work for you. You might think that strep throat is caused by God's displeasure.

Let us know what scientific discoveries you are comfortable with as a starting point.

Do you believe that the earth is a globe? Lots of Christians really fought that one for a long time, but I think most of you tend to accept it these days.

If you do believe that the earth is a globe, do you believe that it orbits around the sun? Or the other way around? Quite a few people died because Christians found the idea of the earth orbiting around the sun offensive. Let us know how you stand on that one.

Do you believe that biological parents pass on genetic traits to their children? Do you believe in genes or DNA?

Let us know where you stand on this stuff, and we will try and meet you where you are.

I have been healed by God. I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents. I have 4 metal rods and 10 three inch screws in my low back and more screws in my neck. Needless to say I was in a lot of pain and some of the times had problems walking due to nerve damage. The doctors said I would have to be on pain pills and muscle relaxers the rest of my life, plus I needed the assistance of a cane on a regular basis. They were wrong. God has healed me of all pain.

God healed you? Funny cause you mentioned going to doctors. Funny how Gods ability to heal seems to get better as medical technology advances, and for people with access to first world physician's care.

Logged

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

God healed you? Funny cause you mentioned going to doctors. Funny how Gods ability to heal seems to get better as medical technology advances, and for people with access to first world physician's care.

Of course, didn't you know he was an awesome god?

Unlike those fake gods, and those false religions, the Christian god stays current with the times.

Well I see you are getting stirred up here. Again, I would have to ask you to prove your theory. If evolution really happened where is the proof. Where are all the animals that are still changing today? If in fact evolution happens, we should see evidence of it happening today. Or, did it just stop...lol Why are there still monkeys in the trees? It is because God made them to be there. You are under the influence of the anti-Christ spirit. If you did belong to a church and know your bible as you say, then you should know that this spirit exists. Backsliding and causing others to fall?, you should know that is not something that you should do. God does not take lightly to those who mislead his people. Apparently, you never really knew God at all. It is not to late, he will welcome you back and your ordered "hot tub" can be canceled.

Your words are no different from the empty threats that Muslims give ex-Muslims. Ex-Muslims no longer accept the childish claims of the Koran (and neither do I accept your childish fairy tale bible). Why should I? These are nothing but empty childish delusions you have - a kind of Santa Claus for grown ups fairy tale that you've been sucked into by your family, culture, etc (just like Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and more). I'm not impressed, and neither am I afraid of that book from which you preach. YOU bought into FIRST, as did I years ago. But instead of starting with your conclusion you should have taken a critical look at it, just like you do with other religions that compete with yours.

Just b/c you are gullible and believed the bible uncritically doesn't mean others should follow you in that gullibility.

1. I used to be Christian just like many others here 31 years ago, as a Christian, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and have been a permanent wheelchair user since. I have legs but they don't do anything much. was I now believing enough when I was diagnosed for god to heal me? The congregation at my church also prayed for me but this god didn't do anything.Oddly, the neurologist who was treating me was a serious Christian but he couldn't get god's power going.

Now I realise that, being in the UK, god might not accept the NHS for payment. After all, the country is markedly less religious than the USA. Sunrise Mobility, who make wheelchairs, has been infinitely more helpful than any deity in keeping me going.

now I am no longer a theist after spending 4 years studying the bible and theology at university so now I realise that the reason I was not healed was simple - there's no god to do the healing! now if you know better, Iknowgod, then show us the evidence that makes you think there is a god.

2. Origins and Evolution requires a bit of work on your part to understand the science and to see why these things make sense. I'd recommend you watch this

and then go to this site which explains evolution in a simple and quick way.

Finally, remember this, even if you could disprove the science of origins, the cosmology, abiogensis and evolution, you would still only be half-way to your ideas. You still would need to show that a god exists and that it was responsible for the creation of the universe and life on this planet. Our current theories might be wrong but that doesn't, automatically, make the bible true.

I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you. Like that would ever happen. (NOT)

Okay. I started that yesterday, I have watch bits in a bag and I shake it whenever I have time, so it may take more than the million years you suggested. Three million, say? Then we can get together and compare notes.

More seriously.....you are unshakeably confident that the watch would NEVER come together. Can you explain how you are so sure, because obviously YOU haven't done the "million year shake". How can you make such a confident assertion when you've not tried it yourself?

God has healed me of all pain. I no longer take pain medication for anything nor do I have to use a cane any longer. God does not cause people to get ill. Satan and the persons lifestyle does that. You can not smoke and expect God to keep you from getting cancer. But, you can repent of smoking and ask God to heal you and he will if you have faith to believe that he "is" and that he can. You can not walk in sin and expect God to do miracles for you. If you really want to know if God is real, stop living in sin. Repent and believe in Him and you can see miracles in your own life. God is an amazing healer.

I tell you what, why don't you take your watch apart put it in a bag and shake for a million years and when you pull out a complete working watch from the bag, I will believe you.

I tell you what, why don't you apply the same thing to your disassembled watch in a bag as you did for the reason god healed you of all pain, shake it once and if you have an assembled watch.....I still won't believe you? Deal?

Logged

Christian: "My faith grows every day."Atheist: "So does rhubarb, and for the same reason."

If you would read your bible, you would know that all healing if based on the person having the "faith" to receive it.

Therefore, no amputees in the modern era have had sufficient faith for their limbs to be restored. We're not talking about "spiritual" healing here, or living a happy life despite having a surgically severed tibia and fibula supported by an engineered prosthesis and many layers of stump socks to cushion the transition point. We're talking about total regeneration of the lost limb.

Quote

I have been healed by God. I had to have several surgeries on my back and neck due to a couple of bad accidents...God has healed me of all pain. I no longer take pain medication for anything nor do I have to use a cane any longer.

You had surgeries on your back and neck. You may still have spinal rods and laminectomies in place. Thank the spine surgeons who operated on you.

You can walk again. Thank the physiatrists, physiotherapists, and any other therapists who worked with you.

*mutter mutter* Razzafracking religious ingrates...

Quote

God does not cause people to get ill. SatanEnvironmental factors, genetically-transmitted diseases and the person's lifestyle does that.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

Uh - This is an atheist website, where we debate the idea that there is not now, or ever has been, any sort of deities. Theism is a relic from the times that mankind was impressed by lightning and eclipses and such.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is real."

There are plenty of theist websites (where some of us have been banned - ironic, ain't it, with love, Jesus, and all). There is even a rapture ready website where a majority of different types of folks are quickly banned. Exclusive club, you know, Christianity. Anyway, many of us here at WWGHA were raised in christian families, studied the bible, etc. Many gave up christianity because of bible study. But yes, for myself I'll admit there is some wisdom, some beauty in christianity, as in many religions.

I have no idea if god exists - I don't believe there is a god, but how would I know? The problem I have with many religious people is they do not offer the same courtesy. Many of the religious even go as far as hating us, spitting on us, and attacking us, or homosexuals, or witches, or....

- should we talk about Islam and how well they treat outsiders? Frankly Spinner, the new religiousness of you theists scares the s**t out of me. Can you understand that? Really, you all are much more dangerous than we are, and we are sick and tired of it! Can you understand that?

I disagree. There's no beauty in Christianity. Anything "beautiful", I am quite sure were stolen from other religions and/or societies. Also, they guise love and peace with direct constant hatred and guile.

Sorry about that, but I still think there are spots of beauty in the bible, Nam. Unfortunately mixed with nonsense and hatred, like you say.

The point is: the beauty espoused about isn't, most likely, original to the Bible (talking New Testament, and most of all in the Old). So, it's stolen beauty. It doesn't belong to them; just like they steal practices and "holy" days of other religions. Christmas doesn't belong to them, Easter doesn't belong to them -- what did they not rip off, steal, or claim as their own and once that's figured out, and then all the hatred and contempt is removed find, if any, the beauty in that. Until then, it's all stolen. Therefore, there is no beauty in the Bible.

If we think that the material world is all there is, and that there is nothing after death, then yes, it would appear that God not healing an amputee (or allowing it to happen in the first place) is terrible and makes no sense. This naturally leads to hating God and/or not believing etc. Completely understandable. And if people are convinced that there is only one life, and nothing happens after this life (or possibly, we have one life and then get judged on where we spend eternity), then i see virtually no argument that could answer the original questions adequately. It would lead to atheism being the only logical conclusion.

However, consider for a moment that this life is just one of many. That is, reincarnation. So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding. For me, reincarnation is the only thing that helps to make sense of all this.

Follow up question/answer may be, to what end are we trying to improve our souls? Consider that each soul comes from the exact same thing (God, Creation, source, whatever you want to call it), and that our goal in being temporarily separated from the source is to learn, experience and grow through countless life experiences and incarnations. With the ultimate goal to rejoin the original source, only to do it again and again. It's a giant wheel of life, only, what we experience with this body is a very small part if the big picture.

So talking about being an amputee, being healthy, being rich, or poor, or tall, short, white, black, man, or woman for a given lifetime is simply too narrow a discussion. It's like trying to understand a movie, by analyzing a single 5 second scene. It can't be done.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.

According to this website I went to years ago, it stated in a past life I was a Serbian female fisherwoman. Made me laugh.

So, each life becomes a lesson designed to grow the real you, the soul. And, under this concept, if you consider having millions of lifetime experiences, then experiencing one or more lifetimes as an amputee (or rich person, poor person, woman, man etc.) may simply serve to provide a perspective as you gain wisdom and understanding.

That would make more sense if in each lifetime we had some sort of memory of past lifetimes. I for one, don't.

i totally agree.

I can't recall any of my previous lives either but i also think i'm not ready to do so. Meaning, if i'm here to learn certain life lessons now, i have to focus on that. If i could remember even just 10 past lives, i could see becoming confused and not able to experience this life properly. I suspect we will gain the ability to explicitly recall past lives as we gain the ability to actually benefit from doing so.

Think of us being in elementary school --- the first or second grade -- we have to learn lots of fundamental lessons, and the ability to recall past lives is a more advanced high school subject. We're simply not ready to experience it, but we will be someday provided we learn and grow wiser.