I've been here long enough to have seen a few things. Traditionalists claiming that this site is too liberal... Liberals claiming that this site is too traditionalist... Greeks complaining of a Slavic bias... Slavs complaining of a Greek bias... Catholics griping that we're too anti-Catholic... One thing I have not seen until today, though, is someone claiming that this Orthodox forum is too heavily influenced by Roman Catholics. That's a new one for me.

I really don't know how allowing Catholics to speak their minds and debate back and forth with us is a "strong catholic influence". Care to explain Douglas?

Sure. When I looked for an Orthodox forum on which to discuss things pertaining to the Orthodox Church, I believed that this forum might fill that need. But in the few weeks I've been a member here, I see several posters who appear to have very strong personalities and act as Roman Catholic apologists in a number of threads. I've no objection to Roman Catholics asking questions (in the appropriate folders) and debating points of theology (which is not my cup of tea since I see it as a colossal waste of time... I'm not much of an ecumenist, I'm afraid). But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two). I've no interest in praying a rosary nor in praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy. If I had, I'd be Roman Catholic. They're non-issues for me. Granted, as I posted elsewhere, there's not much theologically wrong with them BUT then again... there's not much wrong with hi-lighting my bible, singing evangelical songs of worship, spinning a Tibetan prayer wheel and so forth. However, I've no need for these things since I have the banquet supplied by the Holy Orthodox Faith. Some Orthodox members here want to pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for whatever reason... no doubt encouraged by the Catholic members. I say, why have a Twinkie when you can have a full-course meal in Orthodox devotions? And why are these Catholic items even being raised? Isn't there enough Orthodox fodder for discussion without our trying to incorporate Catholic theology, Catholic devotions, Catholic practices? I fail to understand how this is going to assist me in my Orthodox life and in my spiritual journey.

I know... it's not the politically correct thing to actually put words to this but then, I'm not politically correct. I make no apologies for being in love with the Orthodox Church. It is the "right" worship and the "right" belief... period. I don't need to add any other devotions nor make any changes in her theology (i.e. change our view of original sin, change our view of papal infallibility, try and better understand the filioque and the new word games being played by Catholic spin-meisters).

So... yes, I believe there is a strong Catholic influence on this forum and it both surprises and distresses me to a degree.

But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two).

The recent discussion of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy was started by a Protestant considering conversion to Orthodoxy, which totally fits the purpose of the Convert Issues forum. The fact that an Orthodox poster with sympathies toward Catholic spiritual practices hijacked the thread doesn't change that.

As far as the thread on the appropriateness of Orthodox praying the Rosary: That thread was actually started in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion board where such a discussion of the topic should have been started. Please note that the OP also asked whether the Rosary is used in Orthodox churches of the Western Rites. I fail to see how this is inappropriate for where the thread is located.

Can you give us examples of discussions of Catholic doctrines and practices located outside the Orthodox-Catholic or Orthodox-Other Christian boards? I know of a thread on the Immaculate Conception in Faith Issues, but I've been very careful to regulate that thread to make sure it remains focused solely on discussing an Orthodox Christian response to the Immaculate Conception. So, other than that, any examples?

I wouldn't necessarily say there's a strong Roman Catholic influence per se. I do feel that there is a seemingly strong catechetical deficiency among a great many Eastern Orthodox Christians (and I most definitely place myself in that category). As regarding the OP, I think there are several ways to look at it. First, there are Roman Catholic posters here who, quite naturally, will defend their beliefs if and when they are misunderstood or presented falsely. In fairness, the moderators allow them to give their input as much as possible. Secondly, there are those who have come from a Roman Catholic background and who still have a degree of devotion to the traditions they grew up with. This is natural. But it is also something they might struggle with as well and are simply voicing their thoughts in an effort to work it out. In addition, as long as they are not proselytizing here, the matter is probably best left to them and their spiritual father.

In a not so off-topic side note, I am deeply troubled by the swipes we take at each other. The snarky, hurtful comments we make (and I am just as guilty of this!) towards one another is only to our shame and is far more dangerous than any Roman Catholic influence, imo.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 10:04:00 AM by FrChris »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

When you come to think of it, Orthodoxy (especially Orthodoxy found online) often seems to find itself concerned with Catholicism. Even in real-life Orthodoxy, EO Christians frequently find themselves in acrimonious debate about the Catholic Church. I would say that interaction with and reaction to Catholicism make up one of the chief influences on Orthodox theological discourse over the past 4 or 5 centuries. So when you come to think of it, I don't think frequent talk about Orthodoxy as related to or against Catholicism is unusual for this board.

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

Now that's comedy!

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

Now that's comedy!

All of the Georges on this board are in contention for the lead roll in National Treasure 3.

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

Post of the Month Nominee!

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"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

I really don't know how allowing Catholics to speak their minds and debate back and forth with us is a "strong catholic influence". Care to explain Douglas?

Sure. When I looked for an Orthodox forum on which to discuss things pertaining to the Orthodox Church, I believed that this forum might fill that need. But in the few weeks I've been a member here, I see several posters who appear to have very strong personalities and act as Roman Catholic apologists in a number of threads. I've no objection to Roman Catholics asking questions (in the appropriate folders) and debating points of theology (which is not my cup of tea since I see it as a colossal waste of time... I'm not much of an ecumenist, I'm afraid). But I have an issue when threads are begun in the non-debating areas of the forum (some by Orthodox members) that involve Catholic theology (i.e. the recent discussion of the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, the appropriateness of our praying the rosary.. to name two). I've no interest in praying a rosary nor in praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy. If I had, I'd be Roman Catholic. They're non-issues for me. Granted, as I posted elsewhere, there's not much theologically wrong with them BUT then again... there's not much wrong with hi-lighting my bible, singing evangelical songs of worship, spinning a Tibetan prayer wheel and so forth. However, I've no need for these things since I have the banquet supplied by the Holy Orthodox Faith. Some Orthodox members here want to pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for whatever reason... no doubt encouraged by the Catholic members. I say, why have a Twinkie when you can have a full-course meal in Orthodox devotions? And why are these Catholic items even being raised? Isn't there enough Orthodox fodder for discussion without our trying to incorporate Catholic theology, Catholic devotions, Catholic practices? I fail to understand how this is going to assist me in my Orthodox life and in my spiritual journey.

I know... it's not the politically correct thing to actually put words to this but then, I'm not politically correct. I make no apologies for being in love with the Orthodox Church. It is the "right" worship and the "right" belief... period. I don't need to add any other devotions nor make any changes in her theology (i.e. change our view of original sin, change our view of papal infallibility, try and better understand the filioque and the new word games being played by Catholic spin-meisters).

So... yes, I believe there is a strong Catholic influence on this forum and it both surprises and distresses me to a degree.

I really take issue with what I think you are saying (unless I misunderstand you).

On the issues, I agree with you: there is no point in engaging in non-Orthodox practices. And saying there is no spiritual benefit to praying the Rosary for an Orthodox is not a violation of "political correctness." There are several people on this forum who routinely say exactly this type of thing.

What I take issue with is your saying, "why are these issues being raised on an Orthodox forum?" I don't know you so I don't know how wide and broad your exposure is to Orthodox people, cultures, and parishes, clergy, etc. I consider that I have a lot of broad exposure. And this may shock you, but I find that most average Orthodox people have some exposure and some interest in non-Orthodox devotions and customs, whether they be Roman Catholic, Protestant, New Age, self-help, or Muslim. So the debate and discussion you see here is quite reflective of the real world Orthodox experience. So it may not be an issue for YOU, but it sure is an issue for a lot of people.

Now, it's my hope that this site can be educative, and I think that there are many Orthodox people who are able to offer theological and historical reasons as to why we should not engage in such things. Maybe I am reading your complaint wrong, but are you suggesting we should not let people ask questions like this at all? That if they get asked, we should do what, punish people? Shut them down? Delete their posts? Tell them "Orthodox people don't do this, and you can't even talk about it?" What exactly are you suggesting?

As far as these strong Roman Catholic apologists, at least two of them have been moderated numerous times when they cross the line. So I am not sure how our moderation is not working as it should. Why do we let Catholics post here? Because of fairness, and because we want to bring people in to our "house." Anecdotal evidence suggests we have made several converts from this site btw.

If someone is looking for a place to basically get information about Orthodoxy that does not involve tough questions and discussions, they could go to orthodoxinfo.com or one of the diocesan websites. But this is a forum, and as such, you are going to find people with honest questions, and they are going to disagree about the answer sometimes.

Thanks for the information, Father. Obviously I was wrong in my assessment of the forum in that I did not truly understand the purpose of the forum nor did I take the time to educate myself on the religious affiliation of some of the posting members here. Of course people should be free to ask questions and join in discussion (which has to be a two-way street if it is to be worthwhile). My perceptions, it would appear, were wrong. I do, however, stand by my contention that the Catholic practices being advocated for Orthodox members, are for the most part a non-issue (for most Orthodox Christians at least). But that is another story entirely. I'll try and be more circumspect in the future.

Thanks for the information, Father. Obviously I was wrong in my assessment of the forum in that I did not truly understand the purpose of the forum nor did I take the time to educate myself on the religious affiliation of some of the posting members here. Of course people should be free to ask questions and join in discussion (which has to be a two-way street if it is to be worthwhile). My perceptions, it would appear, were wrong. I do, however, stand by my contention that the Catholic practices being advocated for Orthodox members, are for the most part a non-issue (for most Orthodox Christians at least). But that is another story entirely. I'll try and be more circumspect in the future.

I can understand "where you're coming from". Often topic are opened by an RC member which are specific to an RC practice or belief and I wonder, "Why here?" At other times the topic is begun by an Orthodox member and I don't automatically ask, "Why here?" ISTM that being less 'ecumenical' would take us down the CAF road to membership purges, useless propaganda, paranoia, and close-mindedness. I prefer what we have here now. Besides, I'm quite fond of several RC members here.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

When ostensibly Orthodox posters recommend non-Orthodox things for Orthodox consumption, I must admit that I am bothered as well, and if someone is actively pushing a non-Orthodox agenda, I believe this is fair game for "report to moderator."

I can understand the Orthodox posters here who say, "Why?" rather than "Why not?" with regard to adopting Catholic devotions. Of course, every person is different, and to each his own for his spiritual benefit. But both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are ancient churches with an overwhelming array of rich spiritual traditions---why venture into someone else's territory when there is so much you have not experienced in your own? (I know, I should talk---I've been to other countries but have never ventured west of Chicago in America! ).

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

I don't buy this above for a second ..As Orthodox Lurker Has pointed out And i Agree 100%, Traditional Orthodox Voices Are Being Strangled subdued Here ... We have a few martyrs here him being one and others...Pray for us all ye new Martyrs....

I've been here long enough to have seen a few things. Traditionalists claiming that this site is too liberal... Liberals claiming that this site is too traditionalist... Greeks complaining of a Slavic bias... Slavs complaining of a Greek bias... Catholics griping that we're too anti-Catholic... One thing I have not seen until today, though, is someone claiming that this Orthodox forum is too heavily influenced by Roman Catholics. That's a new one for me.

Now, it's my hope that this site can be educative....but are you suggesting we should not let people ask questions like this at all? That if they get asked, we should do what, punish people? Shut them down? Delete their posts? Tell them "Orthodox people don't do this, and you can't even talk about it?" What exactly are you suggesting?

Greetings to All ~

I agree with Fr. Anastasios wholeheartedly.

Many of you here may already know from firsthand experience, that there are other forums out there that regularly do use all of the above listed sanctions as a normal course. As well meaning as such censorship may be in behalf of their own proprietary religious views and opinions, the moderators and administrators of such forums seem unnecessarily heavy handed and harsh in their actions.

By direct comparison, this forum is extraordinarily gracious in its tolerance of the varying beliefs and practices professed by fervent non-Orthodox Christians here, and is to be applauded for its patient forbearance and Christian charity in this regard, rather than criticized or condemned for such, IMO.

I don't understand why people think this forum is not on the LEVEL. We have always been SQUARE with people. No secret philosophy COMPASSES us. All this searching for conspiracies is as self destructive as a SNAKE SWALLOWING ITS OWN TAIL.EORGE

Lucky for me that I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read this or I'd be reading through a tinted screen.

Nice one.

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia. Now? I'm starting to wonder. Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own. We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia. Now? I'm starting to wonder. Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own. We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

I think I might know what you're talking about, but could you please clarify?

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia. Now? I'm starting to wonder. Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own. We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

I'm confused; I just went and read through all those threads you are talking about, and I noticed that you didn't seem too upset with the Rosary in that thread. So what exactly is your concern?

I see basically one guy (PoorFoolNicholas) who is asking a lot of questions about Western devotions, and I see AMM, who is from a Carpatho-Rusyn background where there is still heavy use of RC devotions even in Orthodox parishes, supporting these devotions, in his usual edgy/curmudgeon type way; and I see Papist explaining the history of these devotions, and I see the young fogey, who has always been a part of this forum and has always espoused a kind of practical ecumenism between EO and RC, and I see Douglas arguing against them (and I joined in the fray now contra). So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?

You know, at first I thought the OP was one of paranoia. Now? I'm starting to wonder. Not that it's the RC's who are questionable, but some of our (supposedly) very own. We have a few folks here who are almost demanding that the EO acquiesce to certain RC practices after they've asked for and gotten the EO viewpoint.

I'm confused; I just went and read through all those threads you are talking about, and I noticed that you didn't seem too upset with the Rosary in that thread. So what exactly is your concern?

I see basically one guy (PoorFoolNicholas) who is asking a lot of questions about Western devotions, and I see AMM, who is from a Carpatho-Rusyn background where there is still heavy use of RC devotions even in Orthodox parishes, supporting these devotions, in his usual edgy/curmudgeon type way; and I see Papist explaining the history of these devotions, and I see the young fogey, who has always been a part of this forum and has always espoused a kind of practical ecumenism between EO and RC, and I see Douglas arguing against them (and I joined in the fray now contra). So which folks are demanding that EO start using Western devotions? And how is this becoming an RC influence? What does that even mean?

I'm rather interested in what this "heavy use of RC devotions" might be in the CR Orthodox parishes - both OCA and ACROD.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides