They need one of the 3 of Ackley, Montero, Smoak, to be a decent player, and I know he is young but I have serious doubts about Montero. I have more faith in the second wave of Franklin, Zunino, and Miller, who may have been considered less talented but are scrappy and seem to have a better "drive" than the first wave. Just one guy's opinion!

Tical21 wrote:It looks like the first batch of kids, our highest rated prospects, are possibly all busts. Now the second wave of kids coming up, most of them less acclaimed, hopefully are ball players. We'll see how Franklin reacts after teams adjust to him. He's going to struggle at some point, how will he come out of it? I don't like Miller's stance. He's lunge-ish. That is a gimmick built for more bat speed that usually gets exposed at this level.

I haven't watched every game recently like I have in seasons past, but, I've noticed a lot of great things about both Miller and Franklin. Call me crazy, but I saw a smaller John Olerud style about Miller's approach (and swing) at the plate. His open stance presents itself well from that side of the plate, I suppose. Big things! (I hope)

"The problem with the internet is, that one can never trust the authenticity of a source." - Abraham Lincoln

I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

"So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!

Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

I say that with different names every year.... For let's see about 10 years now.

Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

Oh no. As an eternal optimist I've said the similar things for years. Now that I've finally convinced myself to stop hoping and stop letting the losing bother me you do this…… thanks a lot.

Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

Oh no. As an eternal optimist I've said the similar things for years. Now that I've finally convinced myself to stop hoping and stop letting the losing bother me you do this…… thanks a lot.

Sorry my friend. I've been the exact opposite. I've known since 2002 that we didn't have any hope until we built through the farm again, and that it would take FOREVER. Jack Z is doing what I was screaming for. Over the next two years, we're going to be young, improving, and CHEAP. Perfect! Once we build momentum, that is when we spend the dough for the final piece or two.

I'm bullish on Montero. He has such a sweet swing. He just needs the right coach.

I'd love to find a way to keep Kendrys, but won't lose too much sleep when we can't.

Sorry, but I don't think Miller will make it. His stance is the way it is because he can't generate enough bat speed with a balanced stance. You don't see guys swing against their body and make it. That swing is too long. And he has to open his feet to compensate so he doesn't pull out. In the end, because this makes such a long swing, he has to guess right, or he's F'd. Guys at this level are just too nasty to guess right all the time. It is a shame, because we don't have a lot coming up at short besides him and Triuenfel. Things get so much easier if one of them can play.

Wilhelmsen is almost back. Still left a few pitches too high. He was as good as anybody in the business at locating his fastball. He's on the right track.

Now we need one last good ol' fashioned fire sale. Sell Ibanez. Sell Morales. Sell Morse if you can. Sell Perez. Would a team give us anything decent for a combination of these guys? I'm still on the fence about trading Iwakuma. I can't see him keeping up this pace for the next several years, so my head says to trade him while he has a bunch of value. But the dare to dream mentality thinks maybe he can pitch really good for the next 2-3 years. Maybe I'll roll the dice and keep him around.

I'm optimistic basically for one reason, Franklin. We've needed somebody for a decade now that was so confident and gritty that he was immune to the culture of failure and not hitting. We've needed somebody to come in and say "I don't care if the rest of you aren't hitting, I don't care about the ballpark, I don't care about the losing, I'm just going to hit, dammit". Similar to McCutchan in Pittsburgh. And it has to be done with flair. Only then can it be infectious. It will get the most out of Ackley and Zunino. Can it inspire Smoak? Meh, doubtful. How does your 1st baseman have 13 RBI at the halfway mark?

I hope Jack Z gets to keep his job. I wouldn't mind a new manager though. Wedge isn't the problem, but I don't think he is the solution either. Sadly, there is no way they let Jack Z hire another new manager. They're probably both as good as gone.

"So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!

Some good points tikal, but only Iwakuma and the King are bringing anything in return. Morse, morales and ibanez would be salary dumps with maybe a low level prospect.

If you feel the team needs to rebuild through the farm, and at this point your top prospects are already in the majors, Iwakuma or Hernandez are the only chips that will reestablish that.

However, I'm on the other end, this teams salary is very low, and with four guys coming off the books (including Bay and Morales) its another good summer to go after top free agents. Not the Josh Hamiltons of the world but the Michale Cuddyers (two FAs from last year in different parts of the salary landscape, but with MC clearly outplaying JH). Those mid tier buys can really help stabalize this club competitively. We tried to spent 130 mill last year but are only spending 80. Would love to see 3-5 mid tier FAs come in

I am with you Tical, things are starting to click with a few of these guys, the rotation is starting to solidify, Wilhelmson is starting to find his groove again and the kids are starting to hit. Even Smoak is up to .255

Until Seattle starts WINNING consistently and making the playoffs they just cannot compete for the masher type free agents. We need to find solid gap hitters with speed and thats how you win at Safeco playing more of an aggressive national league style, a small ball approach if you will. These types of free agents do not demand the premium that a Fielder or Hamilton get. Power is going to have to be home grown until they develop a culture of winning and until that happens you plug in guys like Bay, Morse and Ibanez whom IMO have all performed better then expected.

The outfield has been the real tragedy of this season, Guit can't stay healthy, Saunders has been a huge disappointment, when you have Ibanez and Bay as your every day corner outfielders and a converted second basemen playing center you got problems!

I still think they will make .500 this year and that to me is a step in the right direction and reason to feel positive about what is happening here.

I don't think anyone is getting traded and I don't really think they should, like Si said you don't get prospects with Morse or Ibanez and I think they are more valuable on the team then off.

I suppose the next step is the young pitching, when do we see them start them?

I have some issues with Wedge and his strategy. He likes to send big slow guys to steal and they get injured. Playing the " hot bat" vs statistics. Pulling pitchers at the wrong time.

Z has done a mediocre job, he seems to have issues with talent evaluation IMO and likes to draft players that tend to be more major league ready , but with less upside. I would be ok with keeping them or cutting them loose. I don't see that we are that attractive of a landing spot and could we realistically find better.

Before the trade deadline I would be ok with moving anyone given the right offer. We have some major league average players but no stellar position players. The best players we have are our 1-2 pitchers and I would try to keep those.

This is and has been a bad team. Trying to build around Ackerly, Monterero and Smoak is a flop. We need to spin the wheel again and see what we can get. The younger guys mostly pitchers are 1-2 years away. We can build around the average or better position players we have Zunino, Miller ( I hope) Franklin and Seager.

It hurts but that's they way I see it. Keep adding the missing parts and improve, band aids not work we went down that road already, and the best free agents don't want to come to a losing team and organization.

Uncle Si wrote:Some good points tikal, but only Iwakuma and the King are bringing anything in return. Morse, morales and ibanez would be salary dumps with maybe a low level prospect.

If you feel the team needs to rebuild through the farm, and at this point your top prospects are already in the majors, Iwakuma or Hernandez are the only chips that will reestablish that.

However, I'm on the other end, this teams salary is very low, and with four guys coming off the books (including Bay and Morales) its another good summer to go after top free agents. Not the Josh Hamiltons of the world but the Michale Cuddyers (two FAs from last year in different parts of the salary landscape, but with MC clearly outplaying JH). Those mid tier buys can really help stabalize this club competitively. We tried to spent 130 mill last year but are only spending 80. Would love to see 3-5 mid tier FAs come in

Your spot on. I agree we need to play for free agents next year. And let ours 1year guys finish off contracts and add 3-5, dare I say players like the A's sign. I was hoping we would have landed Seth smith, before he chose the A's.

Tical21 wrote:I'm gonna call my shot right now. I'm sold. This is the group that is going to make it happen (players). Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. After this season, we're going to make the playoffs at least five of the next ten years. Remember this month, and this season. This will be the one we look back on like we do the 2002 Seahawks. Nick Franklin will continue to be the catalyst. Seager will continue to be the rock. Ackley will be a perennial .300 hitter. Zunino is going to be Dan Wilson with a little more pop during his prime. They are still a speedster and a stud middle of the order bat short, but they'll get them. Felix is going to lead a phenomenal young staff for years to come. And there will be hardware.

The Mariners sure are good at making fools out of anyone who believes in them. If it comes true I'll get one of the crackheads at the park to give you a blow job.

Now that the Kids are on the filed I give them two years to make some noise, if you have been patient to this point you have to let them season, picthers are going to find the holes in their game and exploit that coming around and seeing them agaon and they will have to tighten things up. People will bitch that they are flops till that is corrected, why I say two years. In that time a couple more prospects could make it up in pitching and maybe anopther position player or two giving you a young core that learns to play together.

Trading guys just as they begin a major league talent level adjustment is what usually bites us in the ass as they become stars or anchors on other teams rosters. Yeah we suck, but the straw is getting smaller all the time now that we have got younger and hungrier. Versus the exhaust pipe we were using the last 9 years.

The biggest fear I would have as a fan is if Lincoln and company will keep Z around or blow shit up again only to have a new GM trade away the youth for ageing vets to appease the fan base, bring in a few names to gain gate revenue and once again short term hope only to become celler dwellers again for another 10 years.

To Be P/C or Not P/C That is the Question..........Seahawks kick Ass !!!! Check your PM's, Thank you for everything Radish RIP My Friend. Member of the 38 club.

425HawkSpark wrote:That's it I'm getting a Seager jersey I hope we hold on too him.

He's as good as gone. Pick a one year wonder at pitcher, and expect him to be traded for said pitcher. The following will happen, Seager will be a solid 300 hitter avg 20-30 hr a year, and the pitcher will stink up Safeco for 3 years.

425HawkSpark wrote:That's it I'm getting a Seager jersey I hope we hold on too him.

He's as good as gone. Pick a one year wonder at pitcher, and expect him to be traded for said pitcher. The following will happen, Seager will be a solid 300 hitter avg 20-30 hr a year, and the pitcher will stink up Safeco for 3 years.

With the talent of pitching I would say replace with aging vet and you got it right. Sad but true.

425HawkSpark wrote:That's it I'm getting a Seager jersey I hope we hold on too him.

He's as good as gone. Pick a one year wonder at pitcher, and expect him to be traded for said pitcher. The following will happen, Seager will be a solid 300 hitter avg 20-30 hr a year, and the pitcher will stink up Safeco for 3 years.

There is absolutely no reason to trade Seager. He won't be arbitration eligible until 2015 and for our inability to sign FA batters he will be paid dearly for his services. Our ownership has never had a problem with re-signing players who have shined in our system.

I enjoy ruining threads by making them about personal attacks and then commenting about how personal attacks make the other person's argument invalid.

We keep the young players that are proving themselves and trade off the ones that fail. Seager is part of the core..Smoak is playing better and we don't have a minor leaguer as good as he is , so he stays. Ackerly does not have the arm for the outfield and seems lost. I would be willing to let him go as well as any vets we have that are up at the end of the season. Montero I would see what we could get but inclined to keep him as a DH unless we get a good offer.

Seem to be playing a LOT more consistent ball here right into the all-star break. Teams usually fall apart or get hot immediately after the break, so here is to hoping for the latter. A .500 season is still a flickering hope (we've been playing .500 ball for about a month now), we just need to go on a tear and get back into mediocrity.

"The problem with the internet is, that one can never trust the authenticity of a source." - Abraham Lincoln

425HawkSpark wrote:That's it I'm getting a Seager jersey I hope we hold on too him.

He's as good as gone. Pick a one year wonder at pitcher, and expect him to be traded for said pitcher. The following will happen, Seager will be a solid 300 hitter avg 20-30 hr a year, and the pitcher will stink up Safeco for 3 years.

There is absolutely no reason to trade Seager. He won't be arbitration eligible until 2015 and for our inability to sign FA batters he will be paid dearly for his services. Our ownership has never had a problem with re-signing players who have shined in our system.

Its just people having a moan with no substance somehow trading one top prospect (Adam Jones) signifies a decade of trading young talent away.

Nice to Smoak making the most of this chance the Ms clearly realize he is important to their future and need him to come good, even average

425HawkSpark wrote:That's it I'm getting a Seager jersey I hope we hold on too him.

He's as good as gone. Pick a one year wonder at pitcher, and expect him to be traded for said pitcher. The following will happen, Seager will be a solid 300 hitter avg 20-30 hr a year, and the pitcher will stink up Safeco for 3 years.

There is absolutely no reason to trade Seager. He won't be arbitration eligible until 2015 and for our inability to sign FA batters he will be paid dearly for his services. Our ownership has never had a problem with re-signing players who have shined in our system.

It was sarcasm, but honesty our ownership needs to change. Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying. Imagine the mariners with a owner who cared and one who didn't have buffoons running the team.

" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

I would be the same way if it was the hawks. Just like any time before 2000 the hawks were aweful I didn't give up on them nor willi on the mariners.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

I would be the same way if it was the hawks. Just like any time before 2000 the hawks were aweful I didn't give up on them nor willi on the mariners.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

I would be the same way if it was the hawks. Just like any time before 2000 the hawks were aweful I didn't give up on them nor willi on the mariners.

Don't feed the troll. For some reason he has nothing better to do.

I don't think he was trolling. I thinks frustration with ownership. I'm not going to speak for Les but that's the typical consensus I get. I go to games because I really like baseball. I'm also a Dodger fan first and coming off the McCourt fiasco I completely get it. Absentee ownership that has no real interest in fielding a championship caliber team. I can see some peoples point of view on that even if I don't agree with it. Baseball is the one sport that has priven time and again that $$$$ and glam doesn't equal championships.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

I would be the same way if it was the hawks. Just like any time before 2000 the hawks were aweful I didn't give up on them nor willi on the mariners.

Don't feed the troll. For some reason he has nothing better to do.

Hey Cali I too am a Dodger fan from way back.

Jits,,,,well I just don't understand paying money to someone that has no interest in putting a quality product on the field. And the Ms haven't had quality products on the field since the 90s.

As long as you keep giving them your money they think its ok. Only way to get real change is stop paying them for a piss poor product. If your automobile repair place gave you the same kind of crappy repair and service you'd change in a heartbeat. Why not do the same with your sports product?

Granted I stuck with the Hawks when they were poor but for the most part I could see they were trying to right the ship. I don't see that with the Mariners, they just rotate faces and provide the same crummy product every year.

I'm not trolling! Listen to any radio show or read any number of articles and you will find a lot of people around the PAC NW think just like me. I love the mariners, and the last 10 years have sucked. Funny how Ruskell is hated here but somehow the MLB version of him (Armstrong and Lincoln) get a pass. And Imagine if the seahawks had 1 winning season in 10 years, and Paul Allen didn't bother coming to even 1 game? How do you think peoe would think of him.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

I don't think the Front Office gets a pass at all. We have a majority absentee owner that they represent and as long as they are increasing the valuation of the team such as the ROOT TV deal they are happy. I suspect the minority owners mostly feel the same way it is just a investment. We just can't get rid of them. I think a lot of the problems stem from them. They only seemed to be will to spend until they got the new stadium.

I will never forget in the late 90s Armstrong saying he wanted a team that was always competitive. This really concerned me. Having been in corporate America for a large part of my life I understand what is left out is as important as what is said. He never said winning it all was important.

By doing so he realizes it sets expectations to do just that and anything less is viewed by fans as a failure. So we get mediocre baseball. Teams that are built on the cheap why can't we attract free agents? Because you have to overpay to get them here with a decade of losing and they won't do it.

Remember there is no real budget in baseball. It is without a cap. The budget is just an arbitrary number they made up

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

The Radish wrote:" Seattle has proven time and again that it will support a team through thick and thin, as long as the team shows they are trying."

The above statement perhaps is true since they haven't been trying for years. It just shows that some people are so hooked on the game of baseball they keep showing up thinking the game will show up in Seattle even tho that bus left years ago.

I mean look at you, listen to yourselves. Hoping for the team to get back to .500. That's truly oathetic.

Jits,,,,well I just don't understand paying money to someone that has no interest in putting a quality product on the field. And the Ms haven't had quality products on the field since the 90s.

As long as you keep giving them your money they think its ok. Only way to get real change is stop paying them for a piss poor product. If your automobile repair place gave you the same kind of crappy repair and service you'd change in a heartbeat. Why not do the same with your sports product?

Granted I stuck with the Hawks when they were poor but for the most part I could see they were trying to right the ship. I don't see that with the Mariners, they just rotate faces and provide the same crummy product every year.

And of course like all opinions here mine has as much value as yours.

[/quote]

If you're able to 'change sports products,' then I envy you. I live in San Francisco - if I could love the Giants, that'd be great. A relationship with a sports team goes beyond a simple business transaction. If you think that doesn't make any sense, then why did you stick with the Seahawks?

Your opinion has as much value as mine, but that's not an excuse for what has, at times, become a pointed habit of rubbing peoples' nose in the fact that their sports team has been a miserable failure for ten years. And when you state, as you have in the past, that 'we should be ashamed of ourselves,' that goes beyond just stating an opinion that I can accept as 'equally valid.' Then it gets personal. As you yourself state, you stuck with the Hawks through the Behring years. Did you honestly think Ken Behring was trying to 'right the ship?' Did you stop going? If you stopped going, did you stop caring? Did you stop watching on TV? The next time Seahawks are bad (and it will eventually happen), will you bail? I don't think for an instant you would - you're as much a diehard as I am (and have been for longer yet).

I get your point, Radish. But when most of your contributions to Mariners threads are to call us pathetic, I stop listening. That's not discussion, that's just throwing insults. I'm not going to stop loving the Mariners, and showing up once every several pages to announce that I should be ashamed of myself or that my fandom is pathetic doesn't generate conversation. Of course you'll post what you want, and so will I, and we will both continue to love the Hawks and live and die with that team, and I will of course keep my replies appropriate for the forum we're in.