this is environmentalist propaganda dressed up in "native american" regalia and it is offensive.

to blanket all 550+ DISTINCT AND SEPARATE nations under the moniker "native american" and think that they all thought the same thoughts is offensive.

the Cherokee were originally from southern georgia and florida... lots of snow there for the "blessing"...

an Apache would scalp you as soon as look at you... the pacifist lies are sickening...

-Imp

cogito ergo cogito sum ergo sum...

Λογοκρισία και σιωπή

What's the difference between a liberal and Al Qaeda?Oh, you don't know either?

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (Thomas Jefferson)

Imp... I would not go as far as saying it is offensive, no more so than your comment about the Apache's. There were many more of them, far more than you have read about.

Georgia was in the snow at one time, remember, we have been in global warming for 20'000 + years.

Of course you will not find many aunthentic photes of the Natives in their time, atleast not any happy photo's. So, pictures have been created to paint a beautiful picture of the Native culture, good, because before the photographers came around, it was quite beautiful.

No, this is not an authentic video, however, it was obviously made by someone with good intention.

Georgia was in the snow at one time, remember, we have been in global warming for 20'000 + years.

not when the Cherokee settled there

Of course you will not find many aunthentic photes of the Natives in their time, atleast not any happy photo's. So, pictures have been created to paint a beautiful picture of the Native culture, good, because before the photographers came around, it was quite beautiful.

lies have been told by white conquerors to assuage their guilt and invented by environmentalist totalitarians to sell their politics.

No, this is not an authentic video, however, it was obviously made by someone with good intention.

no, there is no good intention behind an offensive lie.

-Imp

cogito ergo cogito sum ergo sum...

Λογοκρισία και σιωπή

What's the difference between a liberal and Al Qaeda?Oh, you don't know either?

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (Thomas Jefferson)

Imp, perhaps you will want to check out the source for your link, I am assuming that it is written by a white man. We are back to square one.

The Apache you speak of were Warriors, kill or be killed mentality... hence the word War. Welcome to your world.

There was more to the Apache then the Warriors, there were Women, Children, and Elders. Be careful not to bunch them all together.

You said there was no snow in Georgia when the Cherokee settled. That is easily disputed, but either way, the Natives settled in North America during the Ice Age, they tracked through snow for Thousands of years before they reached their destination, so, stories with snow will be part of all our ancestors past.

Lies are nothing new to any of us right, Welcome.

If we spend all of our time angry about the lies, we will not learn the truth.

SkyBear wrote:Imp, perhaps you will want to check out the source for your link, I am assuming that it is written by a white man. We are back to square one.

assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

The Apache you speak of were Warriors, kill or be killed mentality... hence the word War. Welcome to your world.

what does the word "Apache" mean? pacifist environmentalist?!?

There was more to the Apache then the Warriors, there were Women, Children, and Elders. Be careful not to bunch them all together.

You said there was no snow in Georgia when the Cherokee settled. That is easily disputed, but either way, the Natives settled in North America during the Ice Age, they tracked through snow for Thousands of years before they reached their destination, so, stories with snow will be part of all our ancestors past.

tell us of the origins and meanings of tribal languages...

Lies are nothing new to any of us right, Welcome.

If we spend all of our time angry about the lies, we will not learn the truth.

and if we spend our time spouting half truths and lies as gospel, we make many enemies.

-Imp

cogito ergo cogito sum ergo sum...

Λογοκρισία και σιωπή

What's the difference between a liberal and Al Qaeda?Oh, you don't know either?

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (Thomas Jefferson)

1) ultimately being more efficient and less polluting will save more money than being wasteful and impractical for everyone whether or not anthropogenic global warming exists. In fact in terms of long term models the savings can only be exponential.

The only real problem here is that the time scales of government are small, and the time scales of business smaller still.

I must admit I'm pro efficiency and pro streamlining and pro renewable energy and so on, and for actually remarkably economic and pargamtic reasons, go fusion! You really are going to get nowhere convincing people with old superstition repackaged by modern people. That will just persuade the give peace a chance, hippy types, or the already converted. The only way to convince people is to speak to their bank accounts and their sense of the practical. If you can convince people that they will gain personally, then you're in. Really it's a pretty selfish world, and you wont get far speaking to the mighty eagle in people that soars above Earthly concerns.

This reminds me of another bit of myth mongering in the rant thread, ie how we will all be communists by Christmas 2010, they equally use some unrelated ideas to try and bring together loosely disparate ideologies and ideas, they stir the emotions, if not the ability to reason critically. Not very effective though, unless as I say you're into preaching to the converted.

Liteninbolt, curious, did you create this slide show, or did you radomly discover it on youtube? If so, why were you drawn to it, enough to post it on here?

Imp, to answer your question about the orgin of the Apache language and the meaning of the Apache name, I am sure you already know most, or you would not have asked.

Apache= given during the Spanish raids, meaning "Enemy" Translated by the Spanish, of course they were enemies to the Spanish. The Spanish did not have good intentions.

The Apache had two laguages, one for the warriors, and one for the tribe, so to base the warrior on the whole tribe would be wrong.

The Apache did not call themselves "Apache". The regarded themselves as Nide= "the people"

I will not go into detail, because I am sure you are familar with most of this, but what you are familar with has been translated. One word can change an entire sentence.

To reinterate your original comment, You said that Apache would scalp you if you looked at them. That is the Spanish theory, a translated theory. Of course, the Spanish had to watch their scalps around an Apache, they were the enemy afterall. But, ask a Pueblo "Indian" about an Apache, you would hear something different, even the French version is different. So what you know is based on assumption, and we already know what you think about assumptions.

Basically, this youtube video is based on an assumption, but the intention is a good one, so it would seem harmless. How do you think it should have been dipicted to give a correct translation of the things you know?

SkyBear wrote:Liteninbolt, curious, did you create this slide show, or did you radomly discover it on youtube? If so, why were you drawn to it, enough to post it on here?

I know little about the heritage or practices of any indian tribe. It was my assumption someone who is of indian decent had made this presentation. Some tribes in North America have a spiritual background of one form or another which is why it caught my interest. Originally, I had found this video at another site, but it had no affiliations with YouTube, so I looked for it there.

If the video was created by other than someone of a tribe, I seen nothing outwardly offensive in it's nature. I have no vested interest in perpetuating or creating ill feelings with any culture in any form. There must have been times when indian peoples enjoyed peace and joy of their lands...this is where I saw the beauty of this video.

Liteninbolt... You are right to assume that this video was created by someone of Native decent, but my assumption would be that it is made by someone who has recently discovered a part of their blood line. Someone who has tryed to learn about where they come from, we all do it at some point I assume.

I assume that most Natives would not find this offensive, It portrayed the Natives beautifully, and that is how most Natives saw themselves before the "coming of the white man".

Unfortuantly a modern video would not be as flattering.

Like all cultures the Natives also have their commandments, Same meaning, different words. They also have a story simular to the story of Moses, different people.

Like Imp said, it would be wrong to blanket all under the same belief, just like the Commandments of Moses, we all know about it, but we all do not follow it.

It is all about respect and disciple, be good people, live a good life.

What's the difference between a liberal and Al Qaeda?Oh, you don't know either?

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (Thomas Jefferson)

You know this could all be resolved by finding a certified historian specializing in the Indian nations. I bet one could be found by googling. I grew up in Arizona, I went to school with kids from different Indian nations,, guess what??? They were no different then the rest of us. Dressed like us , talked like us, liked and disliked the same things, had pain in the butt parents, watched the same TV shows etc , etc, etc,. Some spent part of thier lives on the Reservations, some did not. other than skin color they were your average everyday kids and they grew up to be average everyday people. some were idiots some were not, some were assholes some were not. Some went on to higher education some did not. No different than anyone else in this country.

Genocide?????? Really? Humans have been killing each other for the stupidest reasons since the beginning and now we are supposed to be the ones to suddenly feel guilty for something we did not do like wipe a whole group of people out? Thats like reperations for blacks because someone in their bloodline happened to be a slave. Got news for ya,, we all are descendents of slaves. Every single one of us has had ancestors that were enslaved at some point. Humans have been enslaving enemies and weaker humans since the beginning too. Worry about the slavery and genocides that are occuring now not what happened then.

I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.

Kriswest wrote:You know this could all be resolved by finding a certified historian specializing in the Indian nations. I bet one could be found by googling. I grew up in Arizona, I went to school with kids from different Indian nations,, guess what??? They were no different then the rest of us. Dressed like us , talked like us, liked and disliked the same things, had pain in the butt parents, watched the same TV shows etc , etc, etc,. Some spent part of thier lives on the Reservations, some did not. other than skin color they were your average everyday kids and they grew up to be average everyday people. some were idiots some were not, some were assholes some were not. Some went on to higher education some did not. No different than anyone else in this country.

Genocide?????? Really? Humans have been killing each other for the stupidest reasons since the beginning and now we are supposed to be the ones to suddenly feel guilty for something we did not do like wipe a whole group of people out? Thats like reperations for blacks because someone in their bloodline happened to be a slave. Got news for ya,, we all are descendents of slaves. Every single one of us has had ancestors that were enslaved at some point. Humans have been enslaving enemies and weaker humans since the beginning too. Worry about the slavery and genocides that are occuring now not what happened then.

The enemy is taken as slaves in manny epochs. Never never nobody else just went and took people from other parts of the world for the purpose of useing them as slaves.

"All things are preceded by the mind, led by the mind, created by the mind." - Dhammapada

Some where I became lost in this thread, are you who disagree, want the Natives to represent the "Save the Planet" campaign.Are you angry because you feel bad that the Planet has gone to crap and you want to apoligise to the Native.

I know the question seems sarcastic, but I am serious, because I still do not understand why anyone would have been offended by this slide show.

SkyBear wrote:Some where I became lost in this thread, are you who disagree, want the Natives to represent the "Save the Planet" campaign.Are you angry because you feel bad that the Planet has gone to crap and you want to apoligise to the Native.

I know the question seems sarcastic, but I am serious, because I still do not understand why anyone would have been offended by this slide show.

I'm not sure I get it either, I'm sure if you were a Cherokee who spent their lives on a reservation you might think it was a little bit lame, but since no culture is being demeaned or talked down at as far as I can tell, and anyone with half a brain realises this is not straight from the ancestor spirits, I don't see how its offensive. Sounds to me like people with little or no attachment to the culture are being offended on their behalf. Which is actually what 99.99999% of PC is. I'm sure most people with racial issues are more interested in cultural glass ceilings, violence and or real issues of discrimination in their daily lives to care about something so banal as this campaign.

I never really got the whole point of post total wars myself, but there you go, In my experience its usually kids who seem to think if they get over a certain total they are somehow more impressive, when lets face it everyone just pegs the spam merchants and thinks they are lame pretty much off the bat. Mind you this isn't really one of those forums that has spam kings as such, not that I've noticed anyway.

Last edited by Sidhe on Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

capslockf9 wrote: The enemy is taken as slaves in manny epochs. Never never nobody else just went and took people from other parts of the world for the purpose of useing them as slaves.

You are wrong. The Roman empire conquered lands including as far North as England and Sweden. Slaves were sent back to Rome for "sporting events" and for sex. If some died along the way, oh well, there will be more that followed. The Moors went out of their way to conquer lands, they shipped slaves back to their home.The Vikings transported slaves over distances. The Asians did this quite well too.

The slave merchants of The black slave trade bought their slaves from Africans that had captured their neighbors. It became profitable to conquer a tribe then sell the survivors to merchants. Of course that part is neglected because people want to manipulate guilt. Slaves have been transported throughout time. You get captured you are either ransomed or sold into slavery. The better that transportation became the further slaves were transported. All across the old countries ancient roads have slave bodies turned to dust along them. The American slave trade is just the youngest, not the rarest or most novel. I would not seek reperations for my ancestors, I see no reason why anyone else should. Whats done is done, learn morals and ethics from it and move on.

I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.