Ep. 387: Hemp Spotlight, Wendy Mosher and Samantha Walsh

Ep. 387: Hemp Spotlight, Wendy Mosher and Samantha Walsh

Samantha Walsh and Wendy Mosher join us and share the importance of all the moving parts in cannabis product manufacturing and agriculture: “It’s not in the scale of processing. We need all these pieces to come together and we’re getting there, but being able to process, ship it across state lines and get it approved in animal feed, all of those pieces need to come together and they’re so close.”

Speaker 2: MedMen continues to expand its footprint on the cannabis landscape, opening new stores in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and the iconic Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. They've also opened a 45,000 foot high tech cannabis cultivation and manufacturing facility in Nevada. The company has reached a $1 billion evaluation, making it the country's first cannabis unicorn, and it's just the beginning. Learn how MedMen is building the future of cannabis today at medmen.com.

Wendy Mosher: My name is Wendy Mosher and I'm the CEO of New West Genetics.

Seth Adler: What could that possibly be?

Wendy Mosher: New West Genetics could be, it could be many things, but what it is is a company founded by two scientists and myself with the intention of improving the sustainability in the cannabis industry by creating large scale varieties that can be cultivated from seed mechanically.

Seth Adler: Okay. Keep going.

Wendy Mosher: That make sense?

Seth Adler: No.

Wendy Mosher: Okay. Let me make it more specific.

Seth Adler: Please.

Wendy Mosher: So for instance, our first product is a very stable seed called Rely that is an industrial hemp cultivar or variety which you can put in the ground with a planting drill. You can plant tens of thousands of acres of it within, a few days and then at the end of the season you can harvest it with a combine.

Seth Adler: Okay. So I could harvest it with a combine and then coming out of that harvest would be what?

Wendy Mosher: Grain. So this is a grain cultivar, so you would harvest the green and then that green goes into a variety of food products. So you could press it for the oil, you can haul it to make protein powder, you can do a variety of things.

Seth Adler: And it's industrial hemp so this is under .3 of THC.

Wendy Mosher: Correct. So that's part of our specialty is that we can stabilize those profiles within the seed. On the market right now you can get a lot of clones and they do have ... The clonal market right now is the best for getting high contents of cannabinoids until we're finished breeding, which we're getting there, but-.

Seth Adler: Well, what do you mean? Let's just take that tangent.

Wendy Mosher: Okay, we're going on the tangent.

Seth Adler: Let's do it and then we'll come back.

Wendy Mosher: Okay. So our intention of course is to serve multiple markets with our varieties. So we have, for instance, of course a high CBD variety that we are narrowing and working on, we gain about a percent to a percent and a half cannabinoid content each breeding season that we have. So we have things in the greenhouse at 7$ that are stabilized below .3 so that's kind of a value people don't value as much.

Seth Adler: So 7% CBD.

Wendy Mosher: Correct.

Seth Adler: And below .3 THC.

Wendy Mosher: Correct, stably. So it's predictable and it will get entered into certified seed trials.

Seth Adler: Why do people not value that?

Wendy Mosher: One piece, they don't value as much as the below the .3 because the clonal stuff, there's some work arounds. So while there are a number of them and we've tested a number, are not stable below .3 all the way to harvest, the work around is that people are, as the flower matures, they're testing every week then every day so they can catch it before it goes over the .3.

Seth Adler: And then that's how product gets out into the marketplace that we don't need to have out in the marketplace.

Wendy Mosher: Some people are really good at catching it before it goes below .3 but that's added cost and it's added risk for a number of farmers. They're coming from more traditional production that they don't want.

Seth Adler: Certainly. So how are you establishing the stability then?

Wendy Mosher: That's just a matter of doing very elite selecting. So every season we test-, we do thousands of analytics samples. So genetics is a numbers game; the more you test, the more you can find it's a highly variant species and we've induced a lot of variation so it's not hard to find that profile, what is challenging is-.

Seth Adler: Is to keep at that profile.

Wendy Mosher: Is to keep it that profile, so you need to understand the genetics of the male and the female.

Speaker 2: MedMen continues to expand its footprint on the cannabis landscape, opening new stores in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and the iconic Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. They've also opened a 45,000 foot high tech cannabis cultivation and manufacturing facility in Nevada. The company has reached a $1 billion evaluation, making it the country's first cannabis unicorn, and it's just the beginning. Learn how MedMen is building the future of cannabis today at medmen.com.

Wendy Mosher: My name is Wendy Mosher and I'm the CEO of New West Genetics.

Seth Adler: What could that possibly be?

Wendy Mosher: New West Genetics could be, it could be many things, but what it is is a company founded by two scientists and myself with the intention of improving the sustainability in the cannabis industry by creating large scale varieties that can be cultivated from seed mechanically.

Seth Adler: Okay. Keep going.

Wendy Mosher: That make sense?

Seth Adler: No.

Wendy Mosher: Okay. Let me make it more specific.

Seth Adler: Please.

Wendy Mosher: So for instance, our first product is a very stable seed called Rely that is an industrial hemp cultivar or variety which you can put in the ground with a planting drill. You can plant tens of thousands of acres of it within, a few days and then at the end of the season you can harvest it with a combine.

Seth Adler: Okay. So I could harvest it with a combine and then coming out of that harvest would be what?

Wendy Mosher: Grain. So this is a grain cultivar, so you would harvest the green and then that green goes into a variety of food products. So you could press it for the oil, you can haul it to make protein powder, you can do a variety of things.

Seth Adler: And it's industrial hemp so this is under .3 of THC.

Wendy Mosher: Correct. So that's part of our specialty is that we can stabilize those profiles within the seed. On the market right now you can get a lot of clones and they do have ... The clonal market right now is the best for getting high contents of cannabinoids until we're finished breeding, which we're getting there, but-.

Seth Adler: Well, what do you mean? Let's just take that tangent.

Wendy Mosher: Okay, we're going on the tangent.

Seth Adler: Let's do it and then we'll come back.

Wendy Mosher: Okay. So our intention of course is to serve multiple markets with our varieties. So we have, for instance, of course a high CBD variety that we are narrowing and working on, we gain about a percent to a percent and a half cannabinoid content each breeding season that we have. So we have things in the greenhouse at 7$ that are stabilized below .3 so that's kind of a value people don't value as much.

Seth Adler: So 7% CBD.

Wendy Mosher: Correct.

Seth Adler: And below .3 THC.

Wendy Mosher: Correct, stably. So it's predictable and it will get entered into certified seed trials.

Seth Adler: Why do people not value that?

Wendy Mosher: One piece, they don't value as much as the below the .3 because the clonal stuff, there's some work arounds. So while there are a number of them and we've tested a number, are not stable below .3 all the way to harvest, the work around is that people are, as the flower matures, they're testing every week then every day so they can catch it before it goes over the .3.

Seth Adler: And then that's how product gets out into the marketplace that we don't need to have out in the marketplace.

Wendy Mosher: Some people are really good at catching it before it goes below .3 but that's added cost and it's added risk for a number of farmers. They're coming from more traditional production that they don't want.

Seth Adler: Certainly. So how are you establishing the stability then?

Wendy Mosher: That's just a matter of doing very elite selecting. So every season we test-, we do thousands of analytics samples. So genetics is a numbers game; the more you test, the more you can find it's a highly variant species and we've induced a lot of variation so it's not hard to find that profile, what is challenging is-.

Seth Adler: Is to keep at that profile.

Wendy Mosher: Is to keep it that profile, so you need to understand the genetics of the male and the female.

Seth Adler: Both?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah.

Seth Adler: So we care about the male all of a sudden.

Wendy Mosher: Yeah.

Seth Adler: Why do we care about the male?

Wendy Mosher: Well in industrial hemp, typical cultivars are 50/50 male and female and you need to, if you want to control any kind of profile and character traits or characteristics in your variety, you must understand the male as well as the female.

Seth Adler: But wait a second, when I read about Thomas Jefferson, when I read his letters-

Wendy Mosher: Wow. You're studious.

Seth Adler: When he was writing to his friends about hemp, he was saying throw away the dudes. That's a paraphrase, but he was saying, don't plant males. I find it interesting to hear that we are planting males 50/50.

Wendy Mosher: It's all about cost benefit, right? So if you want to do large scale planting and harvesting, you have to deal with males one way or another so some people ... The only thing you can do about it-, there's chemical feminization but that's not certainly a 100% effective and it's also costly to do on the front end, but there's also genetic feminization I call, which is basically just skewing the genetic profile of male to female and we're working on that right now.

Seth Adler: And you're working on that and that's fantastic and we'll come back to it, if I've got 50/50, what do I do?

Wendy Mosher: It's no problem. You just cut through in the field and you leave them. There's no harm done. You're all about optimizing yield, right? So as long as you can breed up the yield to be 1,000 pounds in an acre for flower and 1,000 pounds an acre for grain, that's sweet. You're in a great sweet spot and we've achieved that.

Seth Adler: So it's up to the farmer's choice really.

Wendy Mosher: Right. And why would you spend the money? Because you have to go through and hand cut the males and there's this fallacy out there that male pollen decreases the amount of cannabinoids and UK, University of Kentucky, has done some studies on this and we've done our own experiments and that's not true at all for CBD. In fact, male pollen enhances the amount of CBD present, but it may decrease the amount of THC, which is perfect for hemp, but it's not what marijuana folks want but it's got a utility.

Seth Adler: Got it. So we want the dudes.

Wendy Mosher: It's got a utility.

Seth Adler: So then why didn't Thomas Jefferson want the dudes?

Wendy Mosher: I'm sure he wasn't able to analyze cannabinoid content at that point and he wasn't interested in using it for cannabinoid producing crop. He was just using it for fiber. He had a lot of hand labor.

Seth Adler: So the females would be better for fiber, is that what we're saying or no?

Wendy Mosher: No.

Seth Adler: In other words, how would he know to speak of this?

Wendy Mosher: I have no idea. That's the first I've heard that.

Seth Adler: We'll have to ask him.

Wendy Mosher: I'm not an expert on the fiber properties of the plant, so I ... Sorry, ask somebody else.

Seth Adler: That's fine. Yeah, I was going to say, I think I did say we'll have to ask him or figure out some way to communicate with him somehow. All right, so that's that, back to the grain. Here we have it. Go ahead. Now we've got the grain, we've harvested.

Wendy Mosher: Yeah, that's where I leave the picture. So it goes to a processor and there's a number of grain processing-.

Seth Adler: What's the thing called that we need, the piece of machinery, the processing unit that there's only three of them?

Wendy Mosher: That's the decorticator, that's for fiber.

Seth Adler: But I have my grain here, so I can ...

Wendy Mosher: Grain processing is easy.

Seth Adler: We don't need the decorticator ...

Wendy Mosher: You don't at all. That's just for fiber. But for grain processing, you need really typical grain processing equipment, dehuller, seed presses and all of that exists. The only issue is that you do need to modify it slightly for hemp and the industry-.

Seth Adler: Because it's a rougher grain, right?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah, it's a very thick shell and it's of a size that you wouldn't necessarily have like the traditional set up on your processing if you're like a sunflower person. So there's slight modifications but people have done it and the only issue is with scale right now. So I feel like our processing for hemp specifically is not to the scale yet necessarily. I think it's going to get there really soon.

Seth Adler: Are you now bringing back the decorticator when you say that or you and I just talking about grain?

Wendy Mosher: No, just grain.

Seth Adler: All right, so you and I talking about grain and the processing still is not up to scale because why?

Wendy Mosher: Well, because it's new, that's simply it and I think it's going to ... As soon as we get this regulated through the FDA for grain and animal feed, we are going to need major, major scale and they haven't needed it yet.

Seth Adler: Let me ask you this with the whole regulation thing, is that we have the farm bill and if it's under .3 THC, it's legal, federally. Why do we need more regulations?

Wendy Mosher: So it is that the text in 7606, the section of the 2014 farm bill says it is legal in states where it is regulated for people to perform research and development.

Seth Adler: That's all it says.

Wendy Mosher: That's what it says. And you can interpret that widely to say I'm researching into commercial viability, researching the market-.

Seth Adler: But it does focus on research and development.

Wendy Mosher: And they understand, those legislators like [Munchin 00:09:53], like Jared from our home state understand-.

Seth Adler: But Jared Polis, being on a first name basis for you who are here in Colorado I understand-.

Wendy Mosher: Representative Polis, yes.

Seth Adler: But I mean he feels more first namey, even though I'm a very busy person, I've interviewed him, but you were saying.

Wendy Mosher: So anyways they understand that that was limiting, and ever since then we've always brought a bill to the floor. Let's separate it from marijuana, let's take it as a schedule one, that has-, frequently it doesn't get through committee to the floor for vote. So that's kind of the stall because they have greater priorities but what they have done for us is that in these appropriations bills, they've always added protections for us. So we appreciate that, rolled over and increased every year so we've got interstate commerce protections, prohibitive language, DOJ cannot use their funds to intercede.

Seth Adler: Outside of the co memos. Because that sounds like co memo language.

Seth Adler: Overproduction. All right. So this grain here we have it, we need more investment in processing. What would be your argument if investors are listening, who traditionally would love to throw their money at high THC products because those cost a lot and you can read articles about them all the time. Why would I want to invest in processing industrial hemp?

Wendy Mosher: If you are a astute person to the markets and agriculture you now that the scale at which we produce corn feed, dwarfs the scale of how much marijuana is growing in the US today? So it's a numbers game, right?

Seth Adler: And don't we have too much corn by the way. I think we have too much corn.

Wendy Mosher: There's not too much though. It will all go into ethanol. It gets used.

Seth Adler: How does hemp stack up to corn, as far as, me the farmer?

Wendy Mosher: So return-wise, it's certainly better if you're going into the human foods market. And it needs half the inputs. It needs half the amount of water at least. So I've actually been in the middle of a cornfield where I have a few acres of hemp growing and turned off the spigots in the pivot. Because you don't want it to have as much because you don't want it to get super fiber so can't harvest. And that's why we talk about the sustainability of it is there's tremendous benefits. You need half the input and by that I mean fertilizer and half the water.

Seth Adler: Okay. So lower costs, better sustainability, blah, blah blah. And I'm saying that to would-be investor who doesn't care about that. But lower cost, higher return than corn. We also don't need to be subsidized in industrial hemp. So what am I missing?

Wendy Mosher: You're missing the scale of the market right now. So it's not in the scale of processing. We need all these pieces to come together and we're getting there, but being able to process, ship it across state lines and get it approved in animal feed, all of those pieces need to come together and they're so close. I think it's going to happen in a year and a half.

Seth Adler: How is it close?

Wendy Mosher: Well, we have a stakeholder group through the hemp industries association to submit an application to the FDA and we're not submitting particular companies’ applications. We are submitting an application that will benefit the whole industry to these very wholesale products. So whole hemp seed for seed cake, which is very common way to feed animals, and then for seed oil. So those are very broad categories and-.

Seth Adler: But what about the construction material way. I want to bring back the decorticate here-.

Wendy Mosher: You don't need that through the FDA. You're really interested in this fiber stuff.

Seth Adler: Very interested. Well, here's the thing, because I have been having on cannabis economy conversations about some of the plant and now I'm coming around to having conversations about the entire plant. And so if I'm going to have a conversation with you about the entire plant, well then I also want to talk about the fiber.

Wendy Mosher: Yeah. I understand and one piece of-, I don't know if it's caution, but I would say that if you look at the European and the Canadian markets, you see that all of their varieties are specific to one or the other.

Seth Adler: Totally understood. So it's either this or that. So we were fighting to divide. So then there's the THC folks over there, then we've got the grain folks over here and then now we will also have, I guess the fiber folks.

Wendy Mosher: I'd take grain and flour.

Seth Adler: So we've got the grain and flour folks over here and then now we'll have the fiber folks.

Wendy Mosher: And I want to say, I don't know that it needs to stay that way, that those varieties need to be distinct because what I think is awesome about what's happening in fiber in the US is that, we're going to compete on innovation. We're going to create these innovative processing methods to process the fiber that might not even need a decorticator. So I know some people are working on that and if that can happen then it might not need the traits that a fiber variety needs, of these long, thick stalks that are difficult to harvest.

Seth Adler: Fine and understood. And I hope when we talk again in 6 or 12 months, hopefully we'll talk about that. In the meantime though, your bill doesn't speak to the fiber side because people are involved in the grain and flour, that's why you have to have more regulatory language

Wendy Mosher: Consumption.

Seth Adler: That's what I'm saying. And so then you said, we're close. What does that mean?

Wendy Mosher: We worked with the Colorado Department of Ag facilitated a whole stakeholder group with people from AAFCO, which is the industry association that they don't approve the feed, but they recommend with FDA's approval. Yes. This can be used in feed for animal feed. So anyways, we had a huge, veterinarians, we have toxicologists, we had, of course hemp industry people like myself and we all talked about, how are we going to move this forward? The FDA was there, which was wonderful because we got their direction. They're very supportive of an application. You need to have some research and it's complicated. When you're compiling an ingredient application, it's complicated and it costs money. So I just want to say to all the hemp people out there and anybody interested in furthering the industry, we will be fundraising for these applications. We're in the process-.

Seth Adler: Through the hemp industries association.

Wendy Mosher: Correct.

Seth Adler: Fun. So then that's an hia.org or whatever it is?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah. We just started this stakeholder group this month.

Seth Adler: What's the website though?

Wendy Mosher: The website is hia.org.

Seth Adler: Well, we'll double check that. That's something that we can look at. That's where we are, it sounds like. Why do we have you? Why do you care about this?

Wendy Mosher: We haven't talked about flour much either, so I do want to circle back to that, but the reason we care is because we-.

Seth Adler: No. I mean you personally. You're from New York, we talked about this, but I'm a downstate person, which is basically the bane of your existence if you're an upstate person. It's just we're so downstate, but we're so those people.

Wendy Mosher: So I am from a small town which is surrounded by farming community.

Seth Adler: Batavia

Wendy Mosher: No.

Seth Adler: Close to Batavia?

Wendy Mosher: The Mohawk valley.

Seth Adler: Where's that?

Wendy Mosher: Batavia is much further west. So we're central New Yorkers. Yeah.

Seth Adler: So closer to-.

Wendy Mosher: Foothills of the Adirondacks by Utica. I'm halfway between Utica and Albany.

Seth Adler: Okay. So Syracuse? No. That's west again. I went to Ithaca College.

Wendy Mosher: We actually have varieties growing in Cornell this year so we'll have our varieties around New York City,

Seth Adler: In Cornell University?

Wendy Mosher: Cornell has three or four extension sites and they'll be growing-.

Seth Adler: So not necessarily at the Cornell University campus which is in Ithaca, New York. Okay. So that's why you said we have them growing in Cornell because they would be growing in Ithaca. We have a little bit of a chip on the shoulder with the Cornell people because they're smarter. That's what it is. They were very smart. We were very liberal, artsy. You see what I'm saying? But we had more fun. What are we talking about? We're talking about why you got into this.

Wendy Mosher: So I got into this mostly because I had the intense focus to be able to corral scientists and as an educator, I had always worked in the summers with scientists and had a lot of knowledge so I could interpret.

Seth Adler: Wait, how did you get into that? So you grow up in the little upstate town, just real quick. We'd you go to school?

Wendy Mosher: I went to the college of Saint rose.

Seth Adler: Where's that?

Wendy Mosher: Albany.

Seth Adler: Okay, great. And then that's where you discovered science?

Wendy Mosher: Art. That's where I started dating my partner, Dr. John McKay and we have moved all over the US and in other countries because I was a teacher. So I had that flexibility of being able to get a job anywhere and he needed to pursue his PHD and then his doctorate and finally his tenured professorship, which is what he is at now at Colorado State University. So that's why I'm here. But also because I get really mad about the drug laws. I'm not a cannabis user myself, but I have very passionate feelings about that. So that appealed to me as I'm lobbying constantly, my legislators and actively get to work on making that situation better. That makes me feel really good. Plus the sustainability impacts.

Seth Adler: So educator, activist, care about the earth, care about people's rights. Where does science come in?

Wendy Mosher: My partners are both scientists and I have always-.

Seth Adler: You have more than one partner? John McKay is one partner.

Wendy Mosher: John McKay is my husband, my other partner in the business.

Seth Adler: Oh he's a business partner. You're allowed to do whatever you want. Who's he though?

Seth Adler: So you're an educator, you know then how to talk to these people so that you understand this, so that other people can understand. And it's a passion. Now let's talk about flours to make sure that we do.

Wendy Mosher: Yeah. So for farmers, the largest return that they are getting is based on the flour right now. So they're getting good returns with grains, still competitive with corn. But imagine putting flour on top of that three point below. But higher CBD. So that's the market right now. We see it expanding to other cannabinoids in the near future, but that's really helpful for farmers. And we've been able to breed a variety that is like one to one yield, so really excellent yields of grain and with the same amount of yield flour.

Seth Adler: You know, that when I talk to the other cannabis people, one to one is different, right? One to one is CBD TSH.

Wendy Mosher: I'm not talking about ratios of Cannabinoids. I'm talking about yield.

Seth Adler: There we go. Thank you so much for that clarification. Just in case we weren't paying attention. So one to one grain flour, I can do a whole lot with this.

Wendy Mosher: Right.

Seth Adler: Okay. So how is the supply then? If we've got a bottleneck, is that where the bottleneck is? Is there enough supply? Give us an idea of what's happening with the supply chain.

Wendy Mosher: I can tell you what I've experienced. It's still a roller coaster if you want to look at the market over the year. And, it's a seasonality still to the market, which is keeping it away from being a commodity.

Seth Adler: Because it's outdoor, not indoor.

Wendy Mosher: Correct. So what's happening is in the spring and this started happening actually last month. Last year, I probably got about 50 phone calls of people seeking anywhere from 10,000 pounds of flour to 100,000 pounds of flour of high CBD flour. Nobody had it because they sold it in December. Because the longer you keep it, the less potent it is. Unless you're using some kind of vacuum sealer or freeze drying.

Seth Adler: So what do we do as far as sun grown, so to speak?

Wendy Mosher: I always tell people, because of the volatility in the market, we pretty much only pre contract. So we're contracting with farmers by the end of February, mid-March and we want to have those contracts from customers in hand by December. So that's just going to make it smoother. They're going to lock in a better price. But still, that happened already this year. I'm getting calls for people needing flour now.

Seth Adler: Got It. So supply demand is working itself out and the players are understanding how to do that. What about the supply itself? Is there enough grain out there? Is there enough flour out there?

Wendy Mosher: No.

Seth Adler: What I've been hearing is that, we've been doubling every year for the past four years. So we're in a great place. How many acres of land are you on for instance?

Wendy Mosher: Remember we're variety developers. So we don't need a ton of lands. When you're breeding you need multiple small plots dispersed. So we do that and then we do seed production. So my seed production fields are usually around 20 acres. Next year it will be higher, but that just speaks to the state of our development. So we just had our variety ready last year. The one that's now certified by AOSCA. So I had 150 pounds of it, so I bulked it up on 20 acres and I'm going to bulk it up on about 100 acres next season.

Seth Adler: Good. Certified by AOSCA I feel like that's the first time you said that with these microphones on. Just take us through that.

Wendy Mosher: Sure. Hemp has to be a two part certification process. So normally in any average everyday crop you go to this industry association called AOSCA. What they do is they set up standards for, this is what your crop must achieve. This percent germination, this present uniformity, this percent of allowed weeds in the final product. So they have set those standards for hemp. And this is an international organization. So it's heavily weighted towards North America that many other countries are members of this seed certification. So what happens is then you apply. You describe your variety and depth.
So you have to talk about its height, its uniformity, it's seed maturation, all of those pieces. And then they come to your field to inspect it and see if what you said is true. See if they can validate the uniformity and then you take the seed after and it goes to a seed lab and gets tested for other pieces and then they validated after that. So easy, right? Everybody does this. We had to add an extra step for hemp of course, because of the THC. So Colorado Department of Ag has done a wonderful job setting up these protocols for how we are going to walk through this process.
So you submit your seed to them, they grow it just like a variety trial would happened in any state, in different regions of the state. Then they harvest it and they validate, kind of the same things AOSCA does. They just look to see that that's there. And then they test it for THC. And so we have dual certification. So we're certified by the Department of Ag to be stable below point three in any environment, including altitude as well as AOSCA certification, validating our seed quality and our crop quality.

Seth Adler: Congratulations, this is wonderful. We need quality product.

Wendy Mosher: First US bread variety in the history of the states to be certified.

Seth Adler: Congratulations.

Wendy Mosher: Thank you.

Seth Adler: So here's a good player doing good things. Again, just putting our eyes on the rest of the industry. If investors are listening, is there enough fiber for this to scale out in the industry now? As far as the scope and the scale, is there a bottleneck in the supply chain? Should there be more supply as far as a grain is concerned? I might've said fiber, I meant grain for you. Grain flour. Is there enough supply if we're doubling? Should we be quadrupling? Give us a sense of what the supply chain is and what it should be.

Wendy Mosher: So I can't speak fully to that. I can only speak about our experience, but we are hearing there is not enough. That's been consistent and we'll see. We've had four years of data on this. We need more data.

Seth Adler: You have land right? And folks can use your land?

Wendy Mosher: No. We leased land from farmers because we can't grow in the same place every year. If you're a good breeder, you know that, you don't want volunteers impacting what you're breeding. So the next year, you will get volunteers. I mean, hemp is amazing. It's hardy and it comes back up because there's no perfect combine that sucks up every single last seed. So anyways, we need to be really fossil and just move around every year and we have relationships with farmers that make that possible. We leased land for our seed production. There's this whole infrastructure for doing seed production. There're special farmers and they grow it for us and we pay them to grow it.

Seth Adler: Perfect. And we'll talk to some of them. So there you go. There's your grain, there's your flour and I know that you're a grain flour person. What about fiber? Do you have any thoughts on the supply chain as far as fiber is concerned?

Wendy Mosher: Just what I've witnessed over the last four years, I can tell you that the last two large scale grows we've had, the 20 acre grows, I have offered my fiber to fiber companies for free if they wanted to come harvest it or for a really cheap rate for my farmers to bale it and no one has ever taken me up on that.

Seth Adler: Why?

Wendy Mosher: I don't know.

Seth Adler: Wait a second. That makes no sense, right?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah. Well here's a piece of why, because you can import a ton of fiber from China for something around $200.

Seth Adler: And if and if there's no consumption, then what's the difference?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah. It costs my farmers that much to bale it and we can't compete with the pricing in China.

Seth Adler: No. But I just want American jobs and I want an American economy so we can't compete with that pricing. And so what we would have to say is quality and the fact that it's American made.

Wendy Mosher: Sure. If you'll get that price for it. But no one has taken me up on it.

Seth Adler: We need people to take you up on that and yes, you will pay more for this because why?

Wendy Mosher: I'll have 20 acres this year anybody and I am happy to release the stocks.

Seth Adler: But if it's zero cost to them, from you, where does the cost come in? How does it become more costly than the China supply?

Wendy Mosher: My offer was you can either pick it up yourself for free or pay my farmer to bale it.

Seth Adler: Got you. But if I pick it up for free, so then how is it not cheaper than the China supply?

Wendy Mosher: You have to walk through the field, they've got a hand harvest, walk through the feet.

Seth Adler: Engage at canneconomy.com because we need to be putting you together with people if that's just it. That is a piece I don't understand. We'll hopefully talk more about that another time because we are out of time. I will ask you the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are, and then ask you them in order. What has most surprised you in cannabis? Remember industrial hemp still Cannabis Sativa. Just point three or below in terms of THC. That's the first question. Second question. What's most surprised you in life? Third Question. On the soundtrack of your life. One track one song that's got to be on there. First things first though, we'll get to that.

Wendy Mosher: Why didn't you ask me this before?

Seth Adler: Well, because we want real and true answers, and it's good to hear that you're a listener by the way.

Wendy Mosher: I can tell you what surprised me most for sure in cannabis. The rate of growth of the CBD market, it is astronomical. Watching this grow so fast.

Seth Adler: By the way we got tons of fiber. Let's go ahead and take those kind of almost free fiber from America, from Colorado, from right down the block. What's most surprised you in life?

Wendy Mosher: Most surprised me in life is the fact that I'm still learning how to live.

Seth Adler: That's going to happen all the time

Wendy Mosher: I thought I knew. I was so confident, thought I knew it all, and then I've realized how much I don't know.

Seth Adler: It's almost when you come to that realization, or I should say, when I came to that realization, it's almost like it makes it a little bit easier. It's like I don't know anything.

Wendy Mosher: More curious.

Seth Adler: It makes you easier to be happy, you don't have to know everything because you don't. Nor does anyone else.

Wendy Mosher: That was a relief. All these big CEOS they have no idea what-.

Seth Adler: No people know anything.

Wendy Mosher: They're winging it.

Seth Adler: Zero people know anything. I mean sure, we know what history is. We have maybe some expertise in these areas, but generally speaking, no one knows anything. I think you can find evidence of that wherever you want to look. That's where we'll leave that. On the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song that's got to be on there?

Wendy Mosher: I don't get five?

Seth Adler: You can take five.

Wendy Mosher: Okay I love Tom Wait's song Martha.

Seth Adler: It takes a special person to be a Tom Waits fan. You know what I'm saying? What do you think describe the Tom Waits fan? What is it that you get out of the music? Is it because of the voice is such a beautiful voice to hear? Of course not. It's the song writing, right?

Wendy Mosher: It's the writing.

Seth Adler: Then we deal with the voice, but the voice also feels like the writing is what it is, so you allow it.

Wendy Mosher: I love the man, even his fashion, it all fits.

Seth Adler: It's all of the same thing. All right, so that's one.

Wendy Mosher: I love Leonard Cohen's song Hallelujah. I learned it I play it on the guitar and sing it. I love him, that's another one of those voices.

Seth Adler: All right no, it's not. Leonard Cohen has a nice voice. That's a nicer voice than Tom Waits. Every voice is nicer than Tom Waits. I would say that to Tom Waits. It's just true he knows that and everyone knows that. Even Bob Dylan's voice is nicer than Tom waits.

Wendy Mosher: I agree with that one Leonard, I am attracted to that, so I would not call it a nice voice or a bad voice. I'm attracted to that type of voice and I see similarities.

Seth Adler: Do you know what I might be thinking though? Because I might be thinking of a version. I don't think I'm thinking of Leonard Cohen's version of how you.

Wendy Mosher: Are you thinking of Jeff Buckley's or something?

Seth Adler: I think that that's what I'm thinking now.

Wendy Mosher: Jeff Buckley has a lovely voice.

Seth Adler: That's what I'm saying, so then disregard my commentary.

Wendy Mosher: Go back to the original.

Seth Adler: I will go back to the original, but the point is that, that song is amazing. I love that song.

Wendy Mosher: I love the Biblical references to David and I just love it.

Seth Adler: They're so good. That's such a good song. Alright, next.

Wendy Mosher: I get more.

Seth Adler: Take as many as you want.

Wendy Mosher: Let's see. I'm just going to say an album right now. I'm loving Sturgill Simpson's most, not his most recent, but the one before. There's a song on there where he talks about dying. I have driven across, I love driving across the country and I was on my way from St Louis back to Colorado. I reached a point where I hit the Colorado Plains and he was saying, it's like 49 divine days of I think I'm dying, but it feels beautiful, so good.

Seth Adler: I like that lyric. Okay, do you have more? You probably sure you probably like Nick Drake.

Wendy Mosher: No.

Seth Adler: You don't?

Wendy Mosher: No I don't listen to him.

Seth Adler: No, not nick drake. What am I saying?

Wendy Mosher: You mean Nick Cave?

Seth Adler: No, I mean Nick Drake.

Wendy Mosher: No, I'm sorry. Two Foci.

Seth Adler: Two Foci. Bert Jantsch? None of that. It's got to be like rough a little bit, all right.

Wendy Mosher: They've got to be able to rock out, Lucinda Williams really rocks out she's amazing on the guitar.

Seth Adler: Okay. Alright so then give me another one then. Because I thought it was beautiful songwriting that sounds good too. Your point is no, like you want to be, and you want to be, it's almost like you want a little bit of anger and you also want to get injured a little bit by the music. You know what I mean? Like the music injuries you and then …

Wendy Mosher: Let's say evocative.

Seth Adler: Well then when you get injured, what happens after?

Wendy Mosher: It ameliorates me?

Seth Adler: Well sure yeah. Do you know what I'm saying?

Wendy Mosher: Yeah, I like that. It raises you up so you have to, you know, I don't seek depressing music. When I find something that will take me down, I'll recognize that I have these feelings I have shared with the songwriter but then lifts me back up. That's the best. At this stage in my life. I love like Amanda Palmer. She's a songwriter. I'm embarrassed. I can't remember the name of her band in the 90s, but she's super girl anachronism is one of her songs where she's super angry and I love that earlier in my life, but now I need some peace.

Seth Adler: Earlier in my life I was all about angry music too. Definitely without question there's a lot of good angry music, but like as far as depressing music. I'm a huge blues fan and it's not necessarily the lyrics, but it's the tone of the voice. It's the pace of the music and it's the sound of the music itself that does evoke that, okay yes this is exactly how I feel. He might be talking about his woman. He might be talking about sweeping the floor, and that's a dust my broom reference, which is Robert Johnson song.

Wendy Mosher: I have some Robert Johnson albums.

Seth Adler: He's the guy I meet you there as far as the music itself.

Wendy Mosher: You can find that in any music. I love to sing country music and I love, I have a ton of hip hop. I was in New York Beastie Boys, Jay Z when he came along.

Seth Adler: Just because you said country and then hip hop right after I want to suggest something to you and anyone else who wants to see it. Johnny Cash is amazing and I love Johnny cash. He's got a song called Delia's Gone.

Wendy Mosher: Delia's Gone, love that song.

Seth Adler: Now there was a tribute concert while he was still alive that he played last at, and at that tribute concert I don't remember it was like 15 years ago now, 20 years ago, Wyclef Jean played Delia's Gone on the guitar and it's good. Go look it up on the YouTube. Do that. Oh my God Wendy we're friends now.

Wendy Mosher: Okay sounds good.

Samantha Walsh: Walsh W-a-l-s-h.

Seth Adler: Samantha Walsh. What's your current organization?

Samantha Walsh: I have my own consultancy firm called Tetra public affairs, T-e-t-r-a.

Seth Adler: Well this is now you're going to be confusing all of a sudden, right? Because Tetra as I understand it, isn't that, aren't we talking about THC?

Samantha Walsh: The name came about. We were just sort of like throwing names back and forth. Tetra is also Latin for five points. We're thinking five points of a cannabis leaf even though there's seven. It just sort of came about from that.

Seth Adler: Got It. Five points of the cannabis leaf, even though there's seven.

Samantha Walsh: Originally would draw it with five.

Seth Adler: Then there's the two, the little two guys.

Samantha Walsh: The little two down at the end.

Seth Adler: We forget about those. What's Latin for seven?

Samantha Walsh: I think it's Septa.

Seth Adler: Yeah, that makes sense. But then that makes me think of public transportation for some reason.

Samantha Walsh: It made me think of Game of Thrones.

Seth Adler: You're outside of my orbit there. I don't, anything with dragons. No, I just have a tough time with anything dragons.

Samantha Walsh: What dragons or the best part.

Seth Adler: Are they though?

Samantha Walsh: The wolves. I'm a big house stark fan.

Seth Adler: Are you still talking about Game of Thrones I don't even know.

Samantha Walsh: See you have no idea, I can just start saying random things and you would have no idea. [Inaudible 00:40:21], angels fairies.

Seth Adler: But this random. When you said random, say random again.

Samantha Walsh: Random.

Seth Adler: Where is that from on earth? Where is that accent from?

Samantha Walsh: Utah probably.

Seth Adler: Wow. What's it like there? I've seen pictures and it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

Samantha Walsh: It's the most beautiful state in the contiguous United States too bad it's Utah. I tell that to people all the time.

Seth Adler: That's you philosophically is what you're saying. You philosophically and Utah don't mix.

Samantha Walsh: I think there is a lot of good things about Utah. I think that there are unfortunately some sad side effects of the good things in Utah.

Samantha Walsh: All my summers so in every other holiday. I spent a lot of time there and I don't know, just sometimes there's like it's not a twain, it's just like a little, I can't explain it. If you go to Salt Lake or you go to Utah you hear it in other people.

Seth Adler: It's kind of random that you have that accent when you say random. Okay, so you know Colorado, and you were here when …

Samantha Walsh: I've been here for all of it.

Seth Adler: No, I know. What do we talk about? Where did it begin for you?

Samantha Walsh: Well, I worked in the State House for the Senate majority in the Senate majority leader directly as administrative director.

Seth Adler: When?

Samantha Walsh: That was through 2009 to 2012, and that was during medical when they had to implement all of the medical. Medical existed.

Seth Adler: Yeah 1284 days.

Samantha Walsh: When the Cole memo came out, there was a rush to sort of put an infrastructure and regulatory structure in place. I was behind the scenes there, didn't really work on it a lot, but it was a fascinating piece of legislation, so I absolutely followed its progress.

Seth Adler: The Senate. Majority leader was that a Republican or Democrat at the time?

Samantha Walsh: His name is John Morris and he's at Colorado Springs. He's a retired police officer, police chief and …

Seth Adler: Republican or Democrat?

Samantha Walsh: Democrat. A little Democrat a little carve out liberal Democrat and all of conservative Colorado Springs.

Seth Adler: Because of the military and all that.

Samantha Walsh: Ironically, and he was one of the reasons I was later hired by MPP to lobby Democrats during implementation because then at that point he was senate president. He had always told me behind the scenes, that he didn't really care one way or the other about marijuana. He just said legalize it, and tax the shit out of it.

Samantha Walsh: Well I should tax it. It's a more liberal, I think Democrat approach. I think somebody who comes from a law enforcement background and he was a very pragmatic law enforcement officer. He sometimes would take askew versions to that Blue Line opinion sometimes. He can be kind of an antagonistic force even amongst police officers, That's what you said to me in private, but then when on the 64 passed, there was, and now we're gonna get into like really nerdy political stuff.

Seth Adler: Sure plenty of people will be happy for you to do that.

Samantha Walsh: Like all five of them. There was a lot of controversy with amendment 64 when it passed as it pertained to TABOR, which is the taxpayer bill of rights. Whether or not like sort of amendment 64 is in violation of TABOR, because it did sort of kind of implemented tax or misled people to believe that taxes are being implemented.

Seth Adler: It misled them.

Samantha Walsh: Some people believe that. I don't believe that.

Seth Adler: It did. Let's talk it out though to ensure that we understand.

Samantha Walsh: It specifically spoke to attacks in the question in the ballot question. Some people assumed that meant the tax was implemented, and some people understood that it didn't because of TABOR. Again, you can only have a single subject on a ballot question. Some people believed that that was misleading to the voters or whatever. Even though we all knew we were going to have to go back to the people and pass a tax, because the legislature has no appetite for ever passing taxes, and you would need 75%t of the vote, and that's like almost impossible in a split legislature.

Seth Adler: How do you pass it through the people?

Samantha Walsh: You have to pass it through the people.

Seth Adler: How do you?

Samantha Walsh: He did a referred measure through legislature. The only time a statewide tax is ever passed in Colorado since the implementation of TABOR has been on tobacco, and so this would have been the second time that it has ever passed it was on marijuana. Well, it is now. Because we like syntaxes, I guess in Colorado statewide. But you need in Colorado …

Seth Adler: You are not talking about the structure of a sentence syntax not syntax.

Samantha Walsh: Syntax. In Colorado, you cannot raise taxes without a vote of the people.

Seth Adler: Good I like it.

Samantha Walsh: Good? Oh no it's a horrible way of governance, it's terrible.

Seth Adler: Why?

Samantha Walsh: Because it hides the hands of the republic, it's a republic not a democracy. First of all, we are a republican form of government. We're representing a form of government.

Seth Adler: We already voted these people to do these things.

Samantha Walsh: To do these things and you should allow them to do these things as they see fit, and financially this has significantly constrained lawmaker's ability to do their job in Colorado. I don't know if you've driven around here, but our roads are really horrible and that's part of the reason …

Seth Adler: Okay so the roads are bad, but it does seem like everything else is pretty good?

Samantha Walsh: Well, you know, it depends. For somebody who's so surplus in revenue, we have to do a lot of tax cuts all the time because of TABOR. Oh my God, we're getting into not even, we're getting into nerdy political talk on Colorado's fiscal Gordian knot.

Seth Adler: I'll tell you why. Fiscal, what?

Samantha Walsh: Gordian knot like an impossible not to untie.

Seth Adler: Wow, I'm using that from now on fiscal Gordian knot because we have a Gordian knot in the federal government. What I'm saying is I am looking for things that I could potentially support which might help them be able to do their job. Because they're obviously having a tough time with the politics of the whole thing, and that has led them to not be able to do anything in terms of policy.

Samantha Walsh: Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily say the like budgetary constraints are what's the problem in Congress and their inability to do their job. But I absolutely believe that the budgetary constraints that exist in Colorado's constitution significantly hinder our lawmaker's ability to do their jobs absolutely.

Seth Adler: Because we have to go back to them every time we want to raise taxes. It doesn't feel like the federal government is raising taxes anytime soon.

Samantha Walsh: No. Well in certain ways. I guess it depends on how you view tax raises and increases.

Seth Adler: Talk about that. You're a policy person we are allowed to have these conversations.

Samantha Walsh: Absolutely. Well, I think sometimes we do a lot of regressive taxing, which is on sales products. If you put the onus back on states in order to take care of these budgetary gaps when it comes to like welfare programs and social programs instead of working in Congress with the federal government on these issues, what they'll do is they rely a lot on regressive taxes, which inadvertently harm our poor communities. Because sales taxes are progressive and they're easy to pass though because people view them as syntaxes.

Seth Adler: That's the circle is that it actually becomes imbalanced in that in terms of the 100% of society, there's a, kind of the half that can afford it takes the heavier burden?

Samantha Walsh: Usually yes, correct.

Seth Adler: Okay. That's an issue with them.

Samantha Walsh: Especially when we live in a consumeristic society. Am I right people? Yes. I can hear the cheering in the background.

Seth Adler: There's cheering, I saw head nods, you saw cheering. That's interesting. Let's just finalize one thing here with the federal government.

Samantha Walsh: I can bring this full circle back to marijuana.

Seth Adler: We will, this is good. As far as what I've just noticed, because podcast land knows no time, but we just had like a budget, we just shut down the government for like a minute, because we couldn't agree on the budget and or at least that's what we said. Then we all agreed, I think they still have to pass it, but we all agreed very quickly on a two year budget, where we just raised, we just are going to spend a whole lot of money on everything that everybody wants, and so there you have it. We are bipartisan because we're going to go ahead and increase the debt and the deficit, by x dollars for every single person. You want to fence great. You want social providence? Great. We're going to spend.

Samantha Walsh: You really are libertarian aren't you?

Seth Adler: I'm turning into one. Here's the thing, I come from the left, I try to be in the middle. What I've found is that I'm now apolitical. I'm not a libertarian because I do care about, I think that we can govern in a way that can help we the people and I don't think that that's a libertarian perspective.

Samantha Walsh: No. I'll tell you what though, you work in politics long enough, you do become a little bit of a libertarian, if only because you see sometimes how convoluted the process can be sometimes how wasteful it can be, how bureaucratic it can be. It does drive you a little insane

Seth Adler: If you see folks on the left now being fiscal conservatives, right, with the tax cut, all the folks on the left, were like, how are we increasing the debt and the deficit this much? If you've got me who used to come from the left, and now try to find himself in the center and I just think I'm apolitical. I'm a fiscal conservative, and then you have of course the right, which is traditionally fiscally conservative. If we're all fiscally conservative, how can our current federal government then just be spending this money?

Samantha Walsh: Well, I think it depends on how you view spending money. Because liberals and progressives tend to believe that, spending money is okay because you're usually going to be getting a return back on that investment. This is the difference between debt and deficits. They're not putting yourself into like a greater deficit, because your earnings aren't outweighing your income or your spent spending. You get what I'm saying, even though the words may not be coming correctly. That's sort of the difference. Republicans believe in starving the beast. Conservatives believe in starving the beast. Democrats, they like let's just put it on a diet, but make sure that like, the income is being offset by the outcome.

Seth Adler: Okay, so at least we can start there, but that's not what we just did in a bipartisan way.

Samantha Walsh: No that's just politics.

Seth Adler: We can't just say it's just politics, policy person.

Samantha Walsh: You can the minority doesn't really have that much power, particularly when you're changing parliamentary procedure and rules anyways like the Senate has done. When we do flip the house or the Senate in 2018, which we are going to make major legislative gains.

Seth Adler: You're talking about Democrats.

Samantha Walsh: Yes. I think that we have a more, quote unquote bipartisan actual discussion when it comes to these procedures.

Seth Adler: Here's where we're going with this and eventually we have to get to cannabis and hemp. But I love talking to you about this because you do know what you're talking about, and we are actually having a conversation.

Samantha Walsh: You might get angry calls later. People will be like, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Seth Adler: She doesn't know anything.

Samantha Walsh: I like to know a little bit.

Seth Adler: Like a puddles worth which is extremely a vast puddle.

Samantha Walsh: I know more than your average info wars commentator, so I feel like that puts me …

Seth Adler: It doesn't help to do that I think, you know what I'm saying to like erect a wall in the middle.

Samantha Walsh: I can't when it comes to those people.

Seth Adler: Fair enough. Let's not do that here. You know what I'm saying?

Samantha Walsh: Sure.

Seth Adler: Let's go back to what I was talking about, which is so you were talking about the deficit. Fine I take your point on the deficit. Now let's talk about the debt. During the financial crisis, I like to call it the economic apocalypse. Supposedly there were phone calls from the treasury secretary to China and Russia, who have our debt. I feel like right now we're not as in as friendly territory as we were with China and Russia, at least at face value as we were then. If we have an actual fiscal crisis now, who knows if they will honor our debt?

Samantha Walsh: I agree. There's definitely international politics at play when it comes to these debt negotiations. I like to think it's a little bit more domestic policy driven, which is why they did it as a two year extension. Because if they had to renegotiate, that's immediately after the 2018 gains, so the Democrats are likely going to get. It definitely changes the dialogue and the power balance.

Seth Adler: If everyone's a fiscal conservative, how is no one a fiscal conservative?

Samantha Walsh: Well, I think like just, fiscally conservative is a moment of convenience.

Seth Adler: Well, I'm done with the moment of convenience. I'm just fiscally conservative and we have to pare down this debt.

Samantha Walsh: Well, I think one of the ways that we pare down this debt is increasing revenue. We have to look at how do we increase revenue today in America. We're no longer, we're not as a manufacturing economy like we used to be. We've become in the last 20 years a service based economy. Nobody ever really wants to address that issue. We don't give our service workers the living wages that they need, because there's still this sort of ethos and this idea that real jobs, quote unquote, or manufacturing jobs that are blue collar your blue collar jobs and nobody really seems to understand that.
Well when you're a service based economy that is now a real job. When people say to the McDonald's workers, and to the waitresses and the waiters of the world, well get a real job, No, that is the real job and they deserve living wages. That's one of the things because again, when you're a consumer and service based economy, people need to have purchasing power. Because that's what's going to drive like a lot of jobs and a lot of economic growth.

Seth Adler: That drives the economy certainly.

Samantha Walsh: Correct, but now we're sort of in this unique opportunity where we have this brand new commodity that can absolutely reinvest and reinvent our manufacturing sector and that's hemp.

Seth Adler: Hello. Exactly.

Samantha Walsh: So that's [inaudible 00:56:03] I bring it full circle, I'm really good at this.

Seth Adler: Without question. Anything that can be made with cotton, anything that can be made with paper, anything that can be made with plastic can be made with hemp.

Samantha Walsh: You have to go beyond paper and plastic at this point. There's amazing strides that are being made in graphing batteries and super capacitors. This idea that you could have a hemp battery charging your phone and it's 60% more efficient than a lithium battery is insane.

Seth Adler: Can you, without getting scientific …

Samantha Walsh: I can't because I don't do science.

Seth Adler: Where does the energy come from? We don't know.

Samantha Walsh: It's just the graphing materials or either conductor material, so it just allows it to be more efficient. You're still charging it with electricity than lithium.

Seth Adler: Duracell still needs to be the people that do it?

Samantha Walsh: Then you're also looking at bio yeah you're looking at biofuels and biomass. You are looking at petroleum replacement.

Seth Adler: Food, fuel, fiber.

Samantha Walsh: Yes, and we sort of in wellness now.

Seth Adler: Well, but wellness, here's the thing. I think wellness, let's put wellness with the THC folks a point three and above as well as the CBD folks so let's put that in flower.

Samantha Walsh: Sure. We have a presentation that we always do and we always go sort of starts off, do you need hemp? Almost like got milk, but do you need hemp?

Samantha Walsh: Yeah need hemp. You do need hump and we started to take a three-way approach. Teaching the public how they need hemp, because we are now growing into a more consumer and environmentally conscious, marketplace. Where people want more sustainable items, consumable items, whether or not it's so since one reason. It happens, can easily provide that, because you can grow it and process it locally and leave a smaller carbon footprint behind and it's easily and readily resuppliable and replenishable. Then secondly, the public. People don't really understand this even like public governance, how can hemp really help the public and the government? It's like, well, you have a sustainable option here.
The government can start not only using hemp as our final remediator for contaminated ground from uranium mill tailings and things like that, but they can use it to restore soil after wildfires. Because it helps re-solidify that soil which would mitigate mudslides, flash floods, things like that. If you incentivize its use within new construction, capital construction and private and public construction. You have something that is 30% more efficient when it's used as an installation, you have something that's mold resistant, microbial resistant.

Seth Adler: Let me stop you there. Why was your syntax such that you had to say incentivize it? Meaning, I think you mean, are you talking about subsidies subsidizing it?

Samantha Walsh: Sure. I think the government plays a very important role when it comes to incentivizing markets.

Seth Adler: I think we should try to do this without subsidizing it. I think we should try to offer this as a solution without asking for something.

Samantha Walsh: I think that the private marketplace, absolutely is going to take up that mantle as well because that's the third leg of our stool. The private market, it's going to see how incorporating hemp into their current portfolio is a benefit to them. Because we've now got a market that wants it, and we also have a government that supports its use. Government is not this nebulous bureaucratic, faceless entity even though sometimes it is, but it isn't, it is of the people by the people. I think that people set the standards of what they want in the private and public setting.

Seth Adler: I completely agree with you. I just think that we, the people have fallen asleep on the job. We're supposed to be in charge. It's just that we're not.

Samantha Walsh: Well, I think we are in charge a little bit more than you would know. I think that, it's just that some people just forget that. I don't think we fall asleep at the wheel, we just get distracted by other things without realizing they are the voice. They are the voice and they are the people that lead this discussion. I think that you do need government to come in and say yes, we want to give somebody maybe a tax credit because they're using the sustainable materials. Why not incentivizing some change that you want to see place?

Seth Adler: We agree on the large scale here, so we can agree and then that's that one little piece which you and I can work out together as we go here. Which brings me to the decorticator because we're here in Colorado, and North Carolina has a decorticator to process the fiber to process the hemp and we need one here.

Samantha Walsh: I think that we absolutely need robust manufacturing and processing in place. This is my one contention. I don't disagree with the fact that sure we need a decortication machine. But one of the things I've always advocated from the beginning, is that Americans are innovators and we are tinkerers. We tinker and I think that we have many avenues of manufacturing in place already that hump can fit into. If you're just talking about even from the simple like just biomass, and that kind of like breaking it down into, taking the Lincoln out, turning that into a plastic, whatever that works. I also think that there are people actually know that there are people that are coming up with new ways of decorticating of the texts or the fiber, the herd and the stock they are doing. There's one company out there has got a chemical flash process that can decorticate and break it down in 10 minutes.

Seth Adler: All right, so you're going to introduce me to that company.

Samantha Walsh: I can absolutely introduce you.

Seth Adler: Essentially what I'm saying is let's set up this supply chain because hemp has been here the whole time. We got the farm bill in 2014 and it seems like it's slower than friends on the other side who have established market. There is a market and there's money going into it. There doesn't seem to be the same amount of …

Samantha Walsh: Because they have one market. They have one manufacturing processing and harvesting methods in place. They have one end product. I mean it could be many products at the end, but they have one end product for consumable purposes.

Seth Adler: Got It. That simplifies it makes it easier. It makes it easy to invest in because I can just say, hey, look.

Samantha Walsh: Well, not yet. We did have a bill that just unfortunately died in the legislature the other day, for political reasons that have nothing to do with how great the bill was, how substantive it was. We are going to bring it back, I think with some different bill sponsors.

Seth Adler: What did the bill say?

Samantha Walsh: The bill would allow for the stems and stocks basically from the marijuana industry to act as feed stock, and to act as basically raw material for recyclers, processors, manufacturers in other fiber industries to utilize.

Seth Adler: Which would make our supply unbelievably abundant.

Samantha Walsh: I think once you have that unbelievably abundant supply, that's when you have people that see the cost and investment investing in manufacturing, now they know they can invest in. Nobody wants to build a half a million dollar machine or even a brand new machine, right? Invest in that kind of technology if they don't have an automatic feed stock coming in, but they know it's going to be usable.

Seth Adler: I got you, so political reasons. How can we change it or what can we do differently to get it passed?

Samantha Walsh: We just needed a different bill sponsor.

Seth Adler: Do we have a different bill sponsor?

Samantha Walsh: Yes. There's a new bill sponsor coming up. It had nothing to do with the substance of the legislation. It was just a bill sponsor who's unfortunately mired in political scandal right now, and so there's politics at play there.

Seth Adler: Is it a #MeToo thing?

Samantha Walsh: Yes it is.

Seth Adler: Can you explain? Because I'm also noticing that I'm male and you are female, can you …?

Samantha Walsh: I have no idea what's happening?

Seth Adler: Why didn't you guys meaning my female friends or did you, you might have been telling us and we might not have heard you, and I think that that's part of it. I have been shocked, disturbed and disgusted by this whole thing. As these stories, each of these stories come out, it makes me feel terrible. It's a terrible thing. Now here's my point. Men are stupid, right? We knew this because I can only do one thing at a time. I can only think about one thing at a time. We're painting with a broad brush and I think that that women can do more than one thing at a time, so I knew we were stupid and I knew that power corrupts. I knew that power it kind of does weird things to you, but I didn't know that stupid plus power equals evil. I can't believe that people have a hard time keeping it in their pants.

Samantha Walsh: Yeah. Shocking right?

Seth Adler: But it's not shocking to my female friends.

Samantha Walsh: No because we live it every day. This is, without getting into this in too much. This is what you're going to hate the term, but this is what patriarchy looks like.

Seth Adler: I don't hate any term I welcome it.

Samantha Walsh: People don't like that term because they think it's made up feminist nonsense, but it really isn't.

Seth Adler: Well, when you have all one line of thinking, whether it's dudes or women or white people or, you're going to have one kind of thought.

Samantha Walsh: Sure. You have a systemic power structure that empowers men and sexualizes women and disempowers them in that manner. When you have that created with also a systemic power structure that doesn't necessarily encourage introspection on behalf of those who are in power, you see this not only what we have now as a patriarchal structure, but you also see it with like white privilege. When you are in power, you're not necessarily encouraged to like look and see how you benefit from that power structure. That's where it comes from and that's why this, it's shocking to men because like what how does this go on? Just I'm sure as it was shocking to white people that black people are constantly profiled and pulled over for innocuous infractions.

Seth Adler: I think that so in my lifetime I'm generation x, which you seem to be.

Samantha Walsh: I'm in that gap.

Seth Adler: You're the generation Y people.

Samantha Walsh: I'm that gap, zenials is what they call us now.

Seth Adler: No, that's a stupid word. Generation y is you were born between 80 and 85 exactly. You feel like a generation x person sometimes, and then there's weird moments that you feel like a millennial exactly. My girlfriend is in the same boat there. I grew up working with women in the same way I grew up with women bosses. I grew up with we were all the same, I felt like. As far as women in the workplace, that was all sorted for me. As far as African Americans I grew up with, the LA riots happened when I was like a teenager. I was, yes in my formative years, I did not know about these things, but I've been turned on to them. But the Me Too thing has hit me by surprise based on the fact that I have lived in an equitable way from my perspective.

Samantha Walsh: From your perspective. I would say that I think that part of it again is, and this is more of a symptom of what we call patriarchal power structure. Is that women are sort of conditioned socially to coddle the feelings of men. Which is why when we're putting in an uncomfortable situation with somebody where it's definitely sexual harassment, and it's definitely a man who's leveraging their power in a sexual manner.

Seth Adler: That doesn't necessarily have to include touching by the way.

Samantha Walsh: It doesn't absolutely does not. What happens is you have women that, because we're so again, we're socially conditioned to like actually just worry about your feelings before we worry about ours. We laugh it off, we come up with the excuse, I have a boyfriend because we can't just simply say, no, I'm not okay with this and how dare you? Because one we're terrified of the consequences. Two we're just actually terrified in general because statistically you guys are likely to murder us, it's weird.

Seth Adler: I hope not. I would have to look at those statistics.

Samantha Walsh: I would say the statistics of women murdering other women and men who murder women is significantly different.

Seth Adler: Okay, fair enough.

Samantha Walsh: Of course everybody's going to bring their moral relativism and relative privation. They're going to sit there and say like, well what about this country? Or its way worse. I don't think anyone's saying that just because …

Seth Adler: What about it's not going to solve anything?

Samantha Walsh: Yeah if you ever say what about I just ignore people.

Seth Adler: Exactly. That's exactly right. Either side of anything it doesn't, you're not talking about the issue at hand, if you say what about.

Samantha Walsh: The point of the discussion here is that within American culture, again, women are taught to coddle the feelings men. That's why we say things like, I have a boyfriend. I've lost count of the times I've used that excuse in order to deter advances I felt very uncomfortable with. Because for some reason that's such a respectable answer among men, like I don't want to hone in on this other man's territory I respect that. But if I were just to say, I'm not attracted to you, I'm not interested in this, then it becomes aggressive. What's wrong with you? Why don't you like me? It's horrible you are a stuck up you don't like me.

Seth Adler: I feel like my problem is that I never had friends, male friends that had that approach.

Samantha Walsh: I think it's more common than you think. I do believe that more men should really, really look back on their behavior.

Seth Adler: Their own behavior.

Samantha Walsh: Their own behavior their friends' behavior and really just look at it and just try to like really examine it's hard. Introspection is hard. Having to admit that you probably played a role or benefited from this power imbalances is difficult. Because nobody ever likes to admit it.

Seth Adler: Totally. You're making me think back to my 20s which I'm still in, I'm still in my 20s yeah, exactly. My approach was never, like I converse obviously we can tell. I depended on that as opposed to anything else. Do you see what I'm saying? I never used a crutch of aggressiveness, or of because the whole point was, finding common ground.

Samantha Walsh: Sure and again …

Seth Adler: For me, you know, I don't know.

Samantha Walsh: Without getting into the not all men thing of course it's not all men I don't think women are saying that. What women are saying and fem identifying individuals as well, because I don't want to be toffee about it.

Seth Adler: Toffee what's that?

Samantha Walsh: It's usually trans exclusionary radical feminism is what it stands for. Is that we all experience it on some level.

Seth Adler: What I'm saying, I'm just giving you the reasons for why this has been a surprise for me. Now I am like, now I get it. Anytime that I see, it's like, dude, come on here let's be better than that.

Samantha Walsh: What I think people need to understand is this is not an issue that is exclusionary to Hollywood or politics and that it exists everywhere. I've experienced it in the cannabis industry.

Seth Adler: Is it less now, I hope?

Samantha Walsh: I think so. I think that there is a lot of, at the beginning, a lot of women who, like when you have an industry that's being built up from scratch, you have an opportunity to really change the paradigm. I think that's what we did. I think a lot of women have taken control, they've taken ownership of the entrepreneur opportunities within …

Seth Adler: There are more women leaders in cannabis than in any other industry that I have had anything to do wit.

Samantha Walsh: We all know what this industry look like. When I say industry, I use the term very nebulously.

Seth Adler: Before it was an industry is your point, which was a lot of white dudes.

Samantha Walsh: The culture, the culture was very it was Bong bunnies and booth bunnies at trade shows and stuff.

Seth Adler: One of my favorite moments was in 2013 I think, I was at some trade show and Betty Aldworth was in the …

Samantha Walsh: I love Betty so much. She's amazing.

Seth Adler: Then one of these booth bunnies kind of walked in or something. Of course Betty did not approach the booth bunny. She approached whoever had hired the booth bunny and literally started finger wagging, yelling and screaming at the person at the top of her lungs. Which is why I'm saying like, I do feel like whereas you did see that early days, you don't see that as much.

Samantha Walsh: There's still yeah also doesn't mean that there still isn't like systemic sexism issues. I will say like for example, I've noticed that a lot of the women CEOs who I've seen start their business have been run out. They no longer own their businesses. We're talking about the first people to open on January 1st 2014, no longer have any financial interest in their own business because they've been run out by some male dominated boards.

Seth Adler: There have been examples, and you can go look at the archives of this very podcast, and you can see at least one example of that. But one example that example is money. I think what we're talking about here is more money than it is anything else.

Samantha Walsh: Probably, but it's still, without like making it seem like it's too much of a charitable or like a disingenuous action. I do think there should be efforts made to maintain these women figureheads within their businesses that they started.

Seth Adler: 100% I totally agree with that.

Samantha Walsh: Get back to Calcutta how I'm I the one that's bringing this back to marijuana each time?

Seth Adler: It's because you have a passion Samantha.

Samantha Walsh: Yeah. I also used to do a podcast with David Madelina at THC magazine.

Seth Adler: I know that guy sure. We don't do it anymore?

Samantha Walsh: I got busy so I couldn't commit anymore. Christie Lunsford started doing it with them I think. I don't know if he's still doing it …

Seth Adler: I haven't interviewed Christie on here.

Samantha Walsh: Christie is amazing.

Seth Adler: I know I have to of course I have to.

Samantha Walsh: she's a legend.

Seth Adler: It's just, it's like she's totally a legend. Absolutely. We need to know what we need to be thinking about, because this whole thing has been about, the reason we came together was around hemp. What do we need to be thinking about and doing in the year 2018 as far as Samantha is concerned?

Samantha Walsh: I think that what we really need to be doing is focusing our efforts regionally, and making sure that states have uniform laws within those regions. Then how do we implement that infrastructure regionally? Hemp is again, there's a quote of me I think saying this back in 2014 but not hippy dippy when I say that hemp will save the planet. It's a sustainable option …

Seth Adler: You know Jack Herer also said that a few years before 2014.

Samantha Walsh: I may have heard of that guy, but I think, one, we have to make sure that we have uniform laws. That we're not being overly prohibitive when it comes to these laws. You'll look at like a state like Pennsylvania who claims they want to be a leader, but then they're limiting their crop growth to only five acres. Not that R&D isn't necessary in LA partitioning in this industry out isn't possibly part of that equation as well. We shouldn't …

Seth Adler: Is it a market driven economy or not?

Samantha Walsh: Well, exactly, and so you don't put or you use artificial like backstops that don't really drive the economy, and I think that's what we do. Uniform laws, I think it's understanding that there's enough here to go around, everybody's going to be able to benefit from this I think economically. It's been sort of like, it brings me sadness sometimes. I go to some of these conventions and speak at them, there's a lot of competitiveness amongst companies. This sort of ethos are starting to permeate the hump industry that definitely permeated the marijuana industry, which is that in order to be quote unquote professional.
Now they're like, we're leaving the advocacy behind and now it's time to be professional in business. Somehow that also means that you have to be unscrupulous as though it's a mutually exclusive that you can be a good successful business professional person, and also ethical and not like backstabbing and stuff. I've noticed this particularly between Colorado, Kentucky. We've got a lot of competition between the two states.

Seth Adler: As far as hemp is concerned?

Samantha Walsh: Yes.

Seth Adler: Because Colorado is number one, if I'm not mistaken?

Samantha Walsh: We are number one and don't ever forget it

Seth Adler: That might be some of the problem.

Samantha Walsh: I'm very proud of my state.

Seth Adler: You're saying it should be friendly competition.

Samantha Walsh: Coopetition as Bob Hoban likes to say.

Seth Adler: Frenemies. I just spoke to Bob today actually.

Samantha Walsh: You did, I love Bob he's amazing. I think that's part of it, and I think you also don't have to be unscrupulous. You don't have to be, it doesn't have to be nefarious to succeed. Also the idea that just because we're transitioning from advocacy and activism to, professional lobbying efforts doesn't mean that you suddenly have to abandon like a social conscience.

Seth Adler: You also can't abandon the advocacy and the activism because we still have issues as far as the laws as they are written, including hemp as Bob Hoban can tell you.

Samantha Walsh: That's a big issue. We all have to work together. As far as I've seen, even the people who are currently successful now, still want to ensure that the industry's socially conscious and available to everybody. There are some, I think sometimes you get the activists that they're so used to fighting, and they are so idealistic, that they become ideologues. You to fight everything and everyone because they feel left out.

Seth Adler: Start including stop fighting type of thing.

Samantha Walsh: Sure. Look at the end of the day, the truth of the matter is that like 85% of businesses fail. That has nothing to do with because you're in the hemp industry, it's any industry. People are going to fail, but if you're failing in this brand new industry, it's not because people are trying to keep you down, I promise you that. I promise you that it's just that's just sort of a nature of reality and the nature of any industry. That you just pick your bootstraps up and start again, and look for help. That's one of the things that we're, we're trying to do. We're trying to, when you say government doesn't play a role, but it does. How do we get hemp included in the small business association programs? How do we get grants for small businesses …?

Seth Adler: How do we make sure if folks are going to pull themselves up from their bootstraps, that they at least have the boots.

Samantha Walsh: Well, yeah, you give them opportunities and government can provide some of these opportunities I think for these small businesses to start, to incentivize the industry a little bit. You don't like that.

Seth Adler: Okay and here's my point about that. My point is if we are trying to do this to ask for money while we're trying to do it, I don't know if that's the most cogent approach. I don't know if that's the way for people to get people to say yes. Hey, we want to do this, we just need a bunch of cash.

Samantha Walsh: I think it is. You have two sources of capital right when it comes to investing in infrastructure. You have the private sector and you've got the public sector. I think both are very viable. I think strings come attached with both as well. I think that, if you want something that is a little bit more open and free and fair, I think the public sector sometimes is a little bit better for that source of capital. Because you're not going to be losing your autonomy as much.

Seth Adler: We have been it's so very interesting to me how free market only matters in certain kind of conversations. Meaning there's, Brian Vicente was just telling me this, in Missouri there are two ballot initiatives that are going for the ballot. One of those ballot initiatives is run by a really rich guy, who wants to kind of manage the size of the market. The really rich guy should be the one that would be behind free market agenda.

Samantha Walsh: Those are the strings you see attached to private capital, is that they want to incentivize the market to benefit them. I mean, that's how they become rich. You don't stay rich by enriching your competition and affording them the same opportunities.

Seth Adler: If capitalism is to survive, then we actually have to get back to what capitalism is.

Seth Adler: No, I think we're kind of agreeing because there is socialism in capitalism at the top.

Samantha Walsh: Sure, yeah, [inaudible 01:23:34].

Seth Adler: There's no way that that can survive. Maybe it can survive for my lifetime, and your lifetime, but it can't continue like that unless it truly becomes 1984.

Samantha Walsh: Yeah that part definitely deserves to die off. I don't think capitalism as it exists is truly emblematic of a free market at all. It's really not. It's very much entwined with political power and …

Seth Adler: I think it is now. I think if we look up the definition of capitalism.

Samantha Walsh: It's always been that way. When you go back to the gilded age, you go back to the early 1800s with the industry titans and it was the same thing.

Seth Adler: Structurally you're saying there's an issue.

Samantha Walsh: Yeah, sure.

Seth Adler: Okay. We'll look into that. We'll talk about that next time Samantha Walsh.

Samantha Walsh: You would have to bring on one of our collaborators that we work with. His name's Joel Borowski. He's our finance guy in our consulting firm he has a philosophy major as well. He would be the one. You shouldn't be having this conversation with me you have to be having this conversation with Joe.

Seth Adler: Then let's end this conversation and this has been honestly really a pleasure by the way. For you to allow me to take you all over the map as far as conversation pieces. I'll ask you the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. What has most surprised you in cannabis? The entire plant stock included. What has most surprised you in life and on the soundtrack of your life? One track, one song that's got to be on there, but first thing's first. What's most surprised you in cannabis?

Samantha Walsh: I think the way it's brought about innovation and versatility in a market. Who would have thought five years ago, except for maybe a few of us that for example, that cannabis would be the number one jobs producer in Colorado?

Seth Adler: Number one exactly.

Samantha Walsh: Besides probably healthcare or something like that, which was way more nebulous, but yeah over 30,000 plus jobs. That's not even including the ancillary industries support industries for both hemp and marijuana. To me that's just surprising and just the innovation that people have come up with. I've seen people build extraction systems from scratch. The creations that people are coming out with different kinds of resins that people are coming up. They're playing with the turpines now they're playing with the entire, phytocannabinoid profile. I mean, you know, and this is stuff that's all being done with what you would call like garage tinkerers. The Bill Gates' of like 40 years ago. People that are doing this. We don't need Big Pharma to do it for us. We will do it on her own and we're doing a good job.

Seth Adler: Look at the way that your eyes there was so much fire. That's so good. What's most surprised you in life?

Samantha Walsh: Everything, all of it yeah.

Seth Adler: Can you believe this is what it is? Nope. Very surprising.

Samantha Walsh: Nope, very surprising. Every day I wake up and thought, this is new, but I just keep telling myself everything is normal. Everything's fine.

Seth Adler: Nothing is normal that used to be normal. If you understand that everything is normal now.

Samantha Walsh: That's a pretty good summation of how I feel almost every day.

Seth Adler: Are you related to Joe Walsh?

Samantha Walsh: I am not, but Joe is my middle name.

Seth Adler: Is it?

Samantha Walsh: I am not related to any of the Walsh's not Matt Walsh or Joe Walsh.

Seth Adler: Matt Walsh the comedian the comic actor?

Samantha Walsh: No. Matt well he is kind of a comic joke. I was thinking more of like the Christian conservative.

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