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"Larry Fine might be a good "entertainment" book for someone interested in pianos but should not get on the way for a purchase decision for more than 20%. 80% should be decided by the "feeling" of the buyer."

And why, pray, should it be so? Feelings are what they are, extremely subjective and oft deceiving. And whilst my feelings about sound and action might have more importance to me, they still don't tell me anything about general quality issues, durability etc., which is largely determined by components and building processes which I cannot even see, let alone feel....

Larry Fine samples the opinions of hundreds of professionals. The great quality of the interventions of many professionals here, as well as their intellectual honesty, persuades me that the book is a very, very useful exercise.

As such and with all the caveats about the fallibility of human nature in general, the book is every day of the week infinitely more credible than unsubstantiated assertions of a Hailun salesman, (or of ANY salesman if it comes to that) considering it "entertainment".

That's why this books sells: because it is all but entertainment, whether you like it or not.

By the way, 4a is not a huge tribute to the make, but also not a dishonor at the price point and from what I remember in the higher spheres of Chinese piano production.

If anything, Fine's book will probably help many people in their decision to buy a Hailun, rather than discourage them.

One of the many good things of that book is that it is a great help put things in the right prospective.

_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

By the way, 4a is not a huge tribute to the make, but also not a dishonor at the price point and from what I remember in the higher spheres of Chinese piano production.

Fine's book is not all that reliable for brands that were introduced recently because of shortage of hands-on information.

Hailun was just introduced on the US market when the last edition was released.

W&L isn't even mentioned although at that time there must have been many more W&L's sold in Europe with 300+ dealers than Hailuns in the US. The book is also US biased as apparently it doesn't consider the European (?Asian) market opinions.

The Fine's pricing book is completely useless outside the US. It gives a general understanding to everyone though on piano history, how pianos are built or function.

Certainly the best free promoted product on this forum without any doubt.

This thread was/is very informative for me. It was my introduction into the world of new Chinese pianos. I read it and kept up with it before I got my own copies of the Larry Fine books. Then I forgot about it as I read through his discussions of the Chinese piano industry (especially in the current supplement). Had this thread not been resurrected, I probably would have forgotten about it, and forgotten where I had formed some of my opinions. I am still very much an impressionable rookie when it comes to these discussions, but I am sufficiently impressed with what I am hearing on this forum (not just in this thread) that I want to try a Hailun upright before I make a purchase later this year.

As I mentioned in another thread, I had emailed the address on the Hailun USA website to find out where my local Hailun dealer was. After quite a long time, I did finally get a response, and was told the nearest dealer is in Milwaukee. As it turns out, I will have to go to Milwaukee later next week for business, so perhaps I can take an hour or so and stop by the dealer. As an adult beginner with young children just learning to play, unsure if I want to make the kind of investment a new K5 might require (I think I remember M&B saying this would be a good start), I would figure I sit right in the middle of Hailun's target demographic.

But I am delighted to learn (or rediscover, I guess, since I knew this but had forgotten) that, as a Chicago-area resident, I have the unique opportunity to sample Wendl & Lung pianos. ANR Pianos (not affiliated in any way) claims they stock W&L 122's. I will stop by there, my daughter and I will try out what they have, and we'll report back.

Finally, I thought M&B was a little harsh early in this thread when he (right?) called out the OP as a poseur. Now, I am not so sure. As a 20-something piano player, music major, piano teacher, and mother of two, I would have thought she'd have a lot to contribute in other areas of these boards, but it seems she has elected not to.

Either she was who she said she was, and didn't care for the acrimony... or M&B was on to something.

Thank you, Schwammerl. Your geography does not fail you, and I am often downtown for work-related activities. I shall indeed pay them a visit, as soon as I get over the idea of visiting a piano retailer who also stocks Fazioli, Grotrian, and Schimmel. I find this to be somewhat intimidating. And yet, I am amused and maybe a little perplexed that a dealer who sells these pianos might also sell an upright in the neighborhood where I'll be shopping.

"The Fine's pricing book is completely useless outside the US. It gives a general understanding to everyone though on piano history, how pianos are built or function."

Schwammerl, I bought it and found it very useful because it sets the prices in comparison between each other. This way, I am able to judge whether a certain brand is, in the UK, relatively better priced than in the US. Besides, I was tired of following all the discussions in this forum without knowing how the relevant pianos are supposed to cost...

I agree with you that Fine's book is not a perfect instrument, wherever a subjective element is present you cannot have that.

On the other hand and just to make an impressive example, when a brand has been around for some years (say: Steinway) and there is no discussion whatsoever among those several hundreds people that steinway is not at all at the same level (all elements included) than the 1a pianos, and for the majority of prople also of the 1b pianos, then I start to listen and to find the book mighty useful in a world dominated by the stupidest sales slogans, sound bites and half lies ("all steinway college" etc. just the last one).

These people contributed to Fine's rankings are hundreds of professionals, exposed to a lot of instruments; not a couple of overexcited dealers who have read the latest propaganda brochure or people thinking that they smell of Steinway because they have bought an Essex....

But my point is that Fine's book is much, much more than "entertainment", whatever its limits.

_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

-------------------------------------------------I hope W&L's/Hailun do not nead 20 hrs of prep when they come out of the box (at least mine hasn't had that many hours) with all those people trained by W&L all over the world.-------------------------------------------------

Hi Schwammer,

For a new piano that has just come out of the box and delivered to your home, how long on average will the technician take to "prep" or "tune" your piano. Will the piano be "voiced" as well?

I am pretty sure my W&L did not get any special prep or voicing before delivery. Generally overhere a dealer will just let the piano adapt to it's new environment, tune it a couple of times, check that nothing is fundamentally wrong (no squeeking pedals, sticking keys) and deliver it to your home. There may be exceptions if e.g. you would be purchasing a Bösendorfer or a Hamburg Steinway or if you would have noticed already something that was not quite OK when testdriving the piano in the showroom.

Most of the dealers here have their own technical service and independent techs are very hard to find (I haven't found a good one yet).

So nothing special was done really apart from voicing a few notes and increasing the aftertouch on two keys during the second tuning session; all is done step by step (you need to be patient).

That being said my W&L was quite Ok out of the box although I am sure that if one of the many competent dealers or tuner-technicians who contribute here regulalarly would spend a couple of hours on it, it could even still be better.

Of all the things that must try the patience of Larry Fine, this website must be high on the list. Ron Bol is the lord and master of Perzinaville. Music Brokers Intl. is his umbrella company which maintains headquarters in Lenzen, Germany, does its manufacturing in China, has a history of excerpting Fine quotes and selected quotes of certain members of this forum in its promotional materials, puts a German city name (Schwerin) on the fallboard of its 'German' pianos, and claims to be a European piano by virtue of European components such as Detoa actions which Detoa itself denies supplying.

It must be extremely difficult for Mr. Fine to evaluate pianos with complete objectivity when his intellectual property is exploited in this way.

...anyway , I'm seriously thinking about buying a Wendl & Lung Professional 2 (178cm) in preference to an old (1930) German grand (Thürmer) I've been considering. My budget will not allow me to consider a more exotic purchase.

I played these pianos at the recent NAMM show and found them to be surprisingly nice. I am extremely skeptical of chinese pianos having been burned by so many. Two things we don't know: 1) how much "prep" did it take to make them play as they did. 2)Will the tuning, regulation of the action last. Inferior pianos have a tendancy to deteriorate rapidly after the technician has spent costly hours making them play well. I would suggest you consider one of the new Cable-Nelson pianos for your $3100. They are designed and built by Yamaha. Certainly a more known comodity.

The NAMM show is a show for industry professionals. If you are one, you should probably state that in your signature here. It certainly would not de-value your opinions in the least, and I don't believe you have to be all that specific. It just gives everyone the opportunity to take your comments in context.

BTW, in the context of your comments about Chinese pianos, it would probably be good to mention where the CN 116 is built and that actual selling prices vary among dealers.

Cable Nelson pianos are also made in China. There are some nice differences though. Even when the Yamaha uprights were made in Thomaston, GA. the critical components (hammers, pre-strung plate, action parts) were made in Japan and shipped to the US for final assembly in a case made here in the USA. Yamaha has managed to keep quality controll at a high level regardless of where they make their products.

Yes, prices may vary from dealer to dealer. Shipping costs are not "averaged" for pianos like they are for car dealers. A store in Michigan for example would pay more freight than say San Diego. However, Yamaha does NOT grossly inflate MSRPs, so I stand by my statement that these pianos would be at least "competitive" in this price range.

I see you're from Iowa. Welcome to the forum. Where in our fair state do you hail from and by any chance would you be interested in joining a piano party on May 2nd? See this link for more information.

I don't think the ranking in 4C is relevant here because as I commented in this thread on the previous page " Hailun was just introduced on the US market when the last edition was released."--------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Schwammer,

Thanks for pointing out. Also, as have been pointed out in this forum previously, perhaps we should just take the info at face value.

As for Hailun pianos, which have been given some pretty good reviews here, the ranking seems a little low (just my opinion). There is also no mention of Wendl&Lung, which is Austian-owned but made by Hailun, and which its upright model 122 Universal gets a pretty good rating.

I think Mr. Fine might agree with you. I recall him mentioning that in the instance of certain brands (Hailun included) there was a rush to get them mentioned at all. His aim was to get as many brands included as possible. If his considered opinion matches that of those of us who have played them, they will probably get a bump the next time around.

Incidentally, the W&L you have in your Singapore market is probably not appreciably different from the Hailun. Your W&L's don't seem to get the Viennese holiday for final inspection. I kind of doubt that Mr. Fine will be travelling to Singapore to audition them. He has enough headaches right here.

Originally posted by turandot: Incidentally, the W&L you have in your Singapore market is probably not appreciably different from the Hailun. Your W&L's don't seem to get the Viennese holiday for final inspection. [/b]

I'm not convinced that *any* W&L pianos get inspected in Vienna on their way for delivery elsewhere - and I can't track down where this rumour came from. On page 3 of this thread Mario said that the Hailun people were trained by W&L folk to do the quality inspections, and I'm more inclined to believe that's true. Sending everything to Vienna to be opened up, checked, repacked and despatched would add a lot to the price.

OK, I gotta weigh in on this one. Trust me when I tell you that Hailun is just the flavor of the day. I see them come, I see them go. In my store, I carry cheaper asian pianos for the same reason every other dealer does. Not everyone is in the same "rent district".

Now, I am going to answer the question that has thus far gone unanswered. Why do I carry the Chinese/Indonesian piano I do?

First, I represent a piano that I have confidence in the management team in the US. It is a choice I made based on years of industry relationships. Our #1 piano will continue to be Yamaha, but the Sohmer and Kohler and Campbell pianos I get from Dick Christian and the Samick Music Corporation are supported by people in the US I trust. I need a part, I get one. I have constructive criticism, I can share it and see them make appropriate adjustments.

Second, these pianos are made in Indonesia. I have found that the Chinese makes are a step behind Indonesia. I can't explain why except for maybe Yamaha several years ago started making the GP1, GA1, and later the GB1 in Indonesia and gave this area of the world a bit of a boost. I'm certain it has a lot to do with the preparation (kiln drying) of the wood prior to manufacturing.

Several years ago, my company tried the first pianos Young chang made in this area. after uncrating them, we litterally watched the key stocks warp and make the highest octave unplayable. We had similar problems with early Pearl River pianos. In an overview, there was a general lack of attention to detail. Since that time, I have seen more of the same come and go while more US companies close.

Here is the best advice I feel I can offer the sincere consumer out there. For upright pianos (consoles, studios, and professional uprights) I suggest you choose a Yamaha. Your not going to save much of anything price wise by going to Pearl River, Hamilton (cheap Baldwins from China)Hailun, and so on. Yamaha now has pianos in every price range and the quality assurance is a bit more known. Their critical components are still made in Japan and installed in a cabinet they can build anywhere in the world. Because currently there is still a price disparity on small grands, I'd go with an older established company that is now making products in Indonesia. They may cost slightly more than the Chinese counterparts, but I am convinced they are worth it.I personally like the Sohmers I get from Samick. Of course this post may become dated in a couple of months when the new cable Nelson grands arrive from Yamaha!

Trust me when I tell you that Hailun is just the flavor of the day. I see them come, I see them go. In my store, I carry cheaper asian pianos for the same reason every other dealer does. Not everyone is in the same "rent district".

I see no particular reason to trust you (or distrust you). You're here all of two days and you use a long-running thread on a competitive product to talk up Yamaha and your competing Indonesian products.

Hailun pianos have genuine Hailun parts just as Yamaha has genuine Yamaha parts. You can find Hailun parts in some pretty high-priced pianos, even if the makers of those pianos don't advertise their Hailun upgrades in their promotional literature. There's a Yamaha salesman resident of this forum who used to pick on Hailun regularly. Then one day his employer decided to carry the line. Now he sheds his blood (represents) for both brands. His name is Kenny Blankenship. Ye has seen the light. You should use the community directory to send him a PM and become enlightened too.

Second, these pianos are made in Indonesia. I have found that the Chinese makes are a step behind Indonesia. I can't explain why except for maybe Yamaha several years ago started making the GP1, GA1, and later the GB1 in Indonesia and gave this area of the world a bit of a boost. I'm certain it has a lot to do with the preparation (kiln drying) of the wood prior to manufacturing.

Quote:

Several years ago, my company tried the first pianos Young chang made in this area. after uncrating them, we litterally watched the key stocks warp and make the highest octave unplayable. We had similar problems with early Pearl River pianos. In an overview, there was a general lack of attention to detail.

Perhaps I am a bit slow today because of the first spring sun, but I do not follow the logic here.

We should be carefull with Chinese pianos because you had problems with a KOREAN piano (Young Chang) and a CHINESE one (Pearl River) ...so all Chinese pianos are questionable??

And because Yamaha has a factory in Indonesia, all pianos produced in Indonesia are OK???

Guys, I'm getting such a charge out of this. I just have to wonder when Schwammerl is going to accuse PianoPro of "prejudice". Pianopro is at least a little more off the hook so to speak because unlike me he HAS played more of the Chinese instruments, but his observations thus far, at least to me, seem predictable. At least no one has accused him of being me with a new screen name. (Maybe we were twins separated at birth?) I just wish he'd been around on the Steinway Character Assasination thread. Welcome PianoPro!!

I just was chatting with a friend that has been consulting on a job in China. It seems that $50 million was invested in a factory that was dealing with chemicals in flat-screen production. The factory was spec'd by a Dutch firm, but they used all Chinese pumps for their processes. Within months the factory was idled with heavy losses. It seems that NONE of the Chinese equipment met the specs and was heavily corroded. They gutted the entire plant and started over, but not using the Chinese for suppliers for any of the equipment. No dear friends, it's not piano related, but it does relate to an overarching philosophy, and that philosophy is not necessarily to be the "best". So, when I get attacked for my "wait and see" attitude, every time I turn around it is justified.

Prejudice has no place, nor does jingoism. The Germans for instance have earned a great reputation OVER TIME for quality. If you were to ask what the reputation of the Chinese is today, you would not likely hear quality at the top of the list. Maybe in the decades to come, that WILL be the case, but pretending otherwise today just doesn't make any sense. Reputations are earned folks. The more items that they make lacking quality, the more difficult it will be to earn that reputation. It was in our lifetimes after all that the Japanese had a reputation for making some really shoddy stuff especially post-war thru the late 60's. It all changed developmentally in the 70's and onward. The reputation for quality and consistency is likely rivaled by no one at this point.It took time and dedication to quality and the desire to be the best.

As to Yamaha's Indonesian factories, I would say that the last thing that Yamaha would want to do would be to squander it's vaunted reputation supplying shoddy pianos. For that reason I would tend to believe that those pianos are of a higher quality than their Chinese contemporaries, or better said, I would feel more assured putting my money into their products.

>If you were to ask what the reputation of the Chinese is today, you would not likely hear quality at the top of the list. Maybe in the decades to come, that WILL be the case,...

I think that this trend is already underway, exemplified in the "second generation" instruments - those with significant oversight or control by non-Chinese. Of course time will still be needed, to learn the true tale.