Ferrari F2012 - Part III

No surprise that this is the quality of your "solutions":Flavio: Useless in anything but a commercial capacity, in which Ferrari needs no help. And simply just no. Edit: Ferrari have a valuable brand to protect, you know?Newey: It's commonly known that Ferrari tried to get him, but he won't leave GB. Plus if you have Newey, what is Briatore for?Hulkenberg: A sensible choice for a second driver, but no solution whatsoever for a development problem.

What qualities does Flav bring that Stefano doesn't already have with regards to the role of being a TP?

Newey has already turned Ferrari, yes he is a designer, but Ferrari can't have him so forget about that.

Why would Ferrari replace Felipe? I think he has finally got around the tyre issues. He has been recently outscoring Webber who is in the alleged rocketship of a Red Bull. I don't see any need to replace Felipe now. Especially if it is only going to be for 1 year.

The team is still re-structuring, changing technology and its entire culture. That doesn't happen overnight. It takes years. The equipment they previously relied upon was track testing, not windtunnel. They are implementing changes to their CFD research and are having to rely upon that more and more. It is one thing getting the technology implemented, it is another getting the right people on board that are capable of using it to its full potential.

I know there is a very strong chance that Seb and Red Bull will take both titles. But at least I can see some improvement. Look at it this way, Alonso has now had 2 no points finishes, yes the other drivers have had more bad luck, but not that much more. Alonso is still leading the WDC, the race-pace of the Ferrari is generally comparible to all of the top teams.

Also regarding the qualifying issue. Mclaren have tended to be the best qualifying team over the year. Where are their drivers in the WDC? Also they are only 20 points in front. Why? Because the car is reliable, which nobody else can claim. They have more engines available to them than the other top teams.

It is one thing building a fast car, but to finish first, first you have to finish. No good having a fast car if it can't finish races.

No really? I thought Briatore would design a car throwing sparks. Once more my question: When you have Newey what do you need Briatore for, at Ferrari? Edit: And since you conveniently forgot that part, what's your solution for the problem that Newey does not want leave GB, clearly the biggest obstacle to hiring Newey? (Because the fact that Newey is desirable is not the big news you think it is, and Ferrari being in the dark about it is not the reason for not hiring him, as you seem to think.)

When any idiot could have guessed that qualifying is the key to 2012 specially as it helps keeps the tires in good shape when you are not in traffic and overtaking being tough in certain circuits. Our friends at Maranello chose to prioritize race pace over qualifying. The results are on the wall. Whilst race pace is good, they are left getting a rubbing in qualifying. You know why?

Both qualifying and race pace are important – but what good is being quick over one lap when there are 40 or more race laps? You only have to look at Mercedes early in the season to see that going all out for qualifying is not the way to go – they were quite competitive in the first races yet went backwards as they munched their tyres- the only exception being China where temps were much lower. McLaren had a similar issue – strong qualifying pace and yet, excluding Australia, they struggled for race pace, especially in the heat - Valencia anyone?Whilst it is desirable to have both but if you can have only one then race pace is the way to go. That said it is disappointing to see that Ferrari have not cracked that nut.

Caz when teams like Lotus (albeit unsucessfuly) and RBR were busy introducing DDRS to optimize their qualifying and reduce their outright speed deficit, Ferrari was busy testing front wings/rear wings that didnt work!

So, basically, you think Ferrari should have spent time, money, effort and resources in developing a DDRS system and not on wings that ‘don’t work’?The mind boggles how you figured that one out. Not only do you admit that only one team have it working (Red Bull) and the other (Lotus) has failed to get it working satisfactorily you also admit that the Ferrari wings ‘don’t work’. What you conveniently neglect is that Mercedes, who ‘pioneered’ the DDRS and had since day one have, bar China and Monaco, been practically nowhere.Let me ask you this – if we can’t get our wings to work then how on earth do you think that we will get a DDRS system to work? As you know there are problems with the wind tunnel (which are well documented) and if those are causing the ‘simple’ updates we bring to fail then what do you think will happen with a far more complex DDRS system is developed in it? That’s right, it won’t bring the benefits that one expect or, worst case, not work at all. I for one am glad they have not pissed money up a tree like Lotus have on a DDRS especially when we have far more fundamental issues. As someone else said Lotus’s development have gone backwards arseing about with DDRS.Granted - it can bring benefits but when nothing else is working you really are barking up the wrong tree.

Its pure luck they led so far, now its time for them to be humbled. And no matter how much his voice rubs salts to the wounds, you might as well get used to Vettels post race win cheering!

Yawn, yet another ‘it’s all luck ‘ comment. I am tired of this horseshit. People really are blind or wilfully obtuse. The car was shit, really shit, for the first four or five races and then when the major updates came we saw an upturn in form. Anyone with two eyes could see it – ok so we were not the dominant force but we were there at the front fighting for good points.Ferrari led for so long because Ferrari developed the car and got it to be competitive. Yes we have benefitted from others misfortune but we should not apologise for this are we supposed to do – hold back and say ‘No, no. After you’?

They cant hide behind excuses anymore. First it used to be they had a dog of a car pre-season so cut them some slack they came so far. Now it is, remember they had a dog of a car. Come on.... they had a dog of a car, caz they made one. They were RESPONSIBLE for it. They were helped by others misfortune to be in a position to lead. They did well to produce good updates at Spa and had a chance to be the class of the field. But again they were outdeveloped, and outraced. You cant go back and give an excuse they had a dog of a car. They had one of the best cars on the grid in Spa and again due to their own slack they are where they are.

No one gave that excuse that it is a dog of car. This guff has been perpetuated and repeated ad-nauseum on this forum.The car was crap for the first 4/5 races but after that it was much improved. However it has been clear for some time that the car has issues in certain configurations – in particular traction and low speed downforce. Certain tracks, or even particular sectors, on a track highlight these deficiencies – Hungary highlighted these for example.Ferrari did have one of the better cars around Spa, but it certainly wasn’t the best. The car was much more competitive around Monza but for a mechanical issue for Alonso in Q3 its full pace could not be shown.

When they produced a good car in Spa they didnt say corelation in wind tunnel was bad. No, they said things are fixed. They were left behind by competition, again its a wind tunnel problem. Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough.

This is also drivel.LDM came out the other day and said that wind tunnel results sometimes correlate well and sometimes not. They believed they had fixed it and they haven’t - shit happens. That said it has been obvious for some time to most Ferrari fans that this has been the case with the testing and subsequent re-testing of wings (most notably the front one).

Be it race strategy on the field or their designing off the field, they are conservative at best. No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps... just same old same old hoping for a better result, guess what, it AINT WORKING!!!

Conservative at best? I take it you have not bothered to actually look at the work that they put into the car have you?The car had a similar concept to the McLaren exhaust solution. Admittedly the first iteration did not work, but once we adopted the McLaren system, it worked much better. I assume that you think the McLaren system is equally conservative or unimaginative. Cooling, which was an integral part of the original exhaust solution, is also much improved on this car and this is obvious by looking at the rads which are much smaller than previous years and smacks of anything but conservative.Strategy has actually been much improved this year, though there have been brain fades such as Canada, but then even the great Red Bull were caught out in the same way there.

I'm not sure where this post fits but since there was talk of Ferrari making a mistake in letting Perez go, perhaps a quick note about his performance relative to Kobayashi could be useful here. In my opinion, Perez is not much, if at all, better than Koba because all three of his podiums are earned through gambles with strategies that paid off, and they aren't as impressive as many people think. Without going further off-topic, I'll leave this quote which pretty much says what I'm thinking:

"You have to be careful in judging him (Kobayashi) as a driver because, if you look at most of the podiums we had, he had the better qualifying [at those races].

"Through that, he has certain restraints on the tyres, on the strategy, and with the other car you can simply take a risk: and the risk worked out and paid off.

They cant hide behind excuses anymore. First it used to be they had a dog of a car pre-season so cut them some slack they came so far. Now it is, remember they had a dog of a car. Come on.... they had a dog of a car, caz they made one. They were RESPONSIBLE for it. They were helped by others misfortune to be in a position to lead. They did well to produce good updates at Spa and had a chance to be the class of the field. But again they were outdeveloped, and outraced. You cant go back and give an excuse they had a dog of a car. They had one of the best cars on the grid in Spa and again due to their own slack they are where they are.

When they produced a good car in Spa they didnt say corelation in wind tunnel was bad. No, they said things are fixed. They were left behind by competition, again its a wind tunnel problem. Its not a problem of wind tunnel, its just them not being bold enough/fast enough or efficient enough. Be it race strategy on the field or their designing off the field, they are conservative at best. No DDRS, no blown exhausts, no complex maps... just same old same old hoping for a better result, guess what, it AINT WORKING!!!

Forget Spa! Ferrari had a way better package than Red Bull at Monza!

Circumstances meant that Alonso started 10...but Massa put the car up to 3rd on the grid right behind the two McLarens!

Big update package coming for India. And it will work as being confirmed via TMG tunnel. Word is there are a few updates for this weekend but nothing major. Even if for some reason this weekend goes poorly, there is still time as long as India goes as expected. Work is back to 24-7 in the factory so lets see what they can do. Forza Ferrari!

Ferrari will bring some minor updates, mainly for improving Q form, so i´m afraid we won´t have a clear picture of where the F150 stands until FP3, obviously it will look bad until then, McL and RBR should do well in that respect, i expect a strong weekend for Sauber and perhaps Lotus.

Ferrari will bring some minor updates, mainly for improving Q form, so i´m afraid we won´t have a clear picture of where the F150 stands until FP3, obviously it will look bad until then, McL and RBR should do well in that respect, i expect a strong weekend for Sauber and perhaps Lotus.

2010 and this year has proved that the team can overcome really bad situations, there is no reason to not believe in them, specially if the next updates are validated by the Toyota wind tunnel. Nothing is lost, at least till the India race is over.

Big update package coming for India. And it will work as being confirmed via TMG tunnel. Word is there are a few updates for this weekend but nothing major. Even if for some reason this weekend goes poorly, there is still time as long as India goes as expected. Work is back to 24-7 in the factory so lets see what they can do. Forza Ferrari!

Crucial mate, I don't doubt you for a second but just for my own sanity, sauce please!?

I want to trust those big updates as much as i want to but how long do they take to realise that they still have correalation problem that lead to the closure of their main wind tunnel? Hopefully it is not a case of too little too late.

I want to trust those big updates as much as i want to but how long do they take to realise that they still have correalation problem that lead to the closure of their main wind tunnel? Hopefully it is not a case of too little too late.

You should read what Crucial said.... "And it will work as being confirmed via TMG tunnel"

I don't doubt Ferrari updates in India will work. What keeps me up at night is Red Bull. They have found ways to counteract their car's weaknesses and now it will be very competitive in the next races.

Nevertheless, IMHO, since this F2012 was design "radically", I believe and have been saying it since February, that it has the most potential of all the cars on the grid. With maniacs like Grosjean and Maldonado, Alonso needs to qualify in the first row in order to bring the battle to Sebastian.

I know Ferrari will be working 24-7, and if we lose the championship after how the season started, I won't have any complaints regarding the team.

I expect Vettel to take the lead of the WDC this weekend unless he has a DNF, but as long as Alonso doesn't lose more than 10 or 15 points then everything can still be salvaged if the India package works. Quite simply, we need race-winning pace. If we get it, Alonso can still win this, if the new updates don't work then all is lost and we can at least resign ourselves to it rather than face Abu Dhabi part 2 at the last race of the season.

As for the "3 or 4" small parts coming this weekend - are they also from the new wind tunnel? If they only bring a tenth or two to the car it could make a difference.

I expect Vettel to take the lead of the WDC this weekend unless he has a DNF, but as long as Alonso doesn't lose more than 10 or 15 points then everything can still be salvaged if the India package works. Quite simply, we need race-winning pace. If we get it, Alonso can still win this, if the new updates don't work then all is lost and we can at least resign ourselves to it rather than face Abu Dhabi part 2 at the last race of the season.

As for the "3 or 4" small parts coming this weekend - are they also from the new wind tunnel? If they only bring a tenth or two to the car it could make a difference.

My big hope is that Hamilton will outqualify Vettel. Still Vettel doesn't have this in the bag.

I am tired of hearing correlation issues and Ferrari more reliant on track testing than wind tunnel. Well guess what?

Its been AGES since full blown in season testing has been BANNED... get on with wind tunnel and CFD's already!

What is shameful is that Ferrari abandoned their last season to focus on this years car not even half way through the last season but during the first half of last season. And the result was that they had a lemon to start the season with... Getting whopped by Williams, Sauber, Mc Laren, RBR, Lotus and the likes at the first race. DAMN!

Sometimes it feels like Ferrari brings a baseball bat to a gun fight!!!

I am tired of hearing correlation issues and Ferrari more reliant on track testing than wind tunnel. Well guess what?

Its been AGES since full blown in season testing has been BANNED... get on with wind tunnel and CFD's already!

What is shameful is that Ferrari abandoned their last season to focus on this years car not even half way through the last season but during the first half of last season. And the result was that they had a lemon to start the season with... Getting whopped by Williams, Sauber, Mc Laren, RBR, Lotus and the likes at the first race. DAMN!

Sometimes it feels like Ferrari brings a baseball bat to a gun fight!!!

You sure dont get tired of saying it, though. Seriously, find something new to say for once.

I am tired of hearing correlation issues and Ferrari more reliant on track testing than wind tunnel. Well guess what?

Its been AGES since full blown in season testing has been BANNED... get on with wind tunnel and CFD's already!

What is shameful is that Ferrari abandoned their last season to focus on this years car not even half way through the last season but during the first half of last season. And the result was that they had a lemon to start the season with... Getting whopped by Williams, Sauber, Mc Laren, RBR, Lotus and the likes at the first race. DAMN!

Sometimes it feels like Ferrari brings a baseball bat to a gun fight!!!

Do you know how long it takes to design a car from the ground up, let alone an F1 car? In season testing was Ferrari's way of doing things, the result is hundreds of millions wasted in a new tunnel and new technology when Ferrari owns tracks such as Fiorano were testing can be done efficiently. If I were Luca I would've told Mosley to go to hell with the testing ban, F1 would've gone the way of WRC.

Do you know how long it takes to design a car from the ground up, let alone an F1 car? In season testing was Ferrari's way of doing things, the result is hundreds of millions wasted in a new tunnel and new technology when Ferrari owns tracks such as Fiorano were testing can be done efficiently. If I were Luca I would've told Mosley to go to hell with the testing ban, F1 would've gone the way of WRC.

I honestly do not give a flying f*** about how difficult it is.

They have one of the best drivers in the history of the sport driving for them, the guy even took a pay cut, and they're doing this to him????

They have one of the best drivers in the history of the sport driving for them, the guy even took a pay cut, and they're doing this to him????

Are you kidding me?!

I understand you're frustrated as a passionate fan, so am I. But with all due respect, you're acting as if they owe you something. If you're so angry at Ferrari then you have a choice to stop supporting them.

So does anyone actually think Ferrari have any hope of a strong weekend at Korea or are we already resigned to hoping for Red Bull reliability and/or Grosjean to take out Vettel at turn one aka "damage limitation"? I am trying to stay optimistic but since Suzuka have yet to find any evidence that Ferrari can anticipate a strong outing this weekend...

So does anyone actually think Ferrari have any hope of a strong weekend at Korea or are we already resigned to hoping for Red Bull reliability and/or Grosjean to take out Vettel at turn one aka "damage limitation"? I am trying to stay optimistic but since Suzuka have yet to find any evidence that Ferrari can anticipate a strong outing this weekend...

Ferrari is VERY strong in long straights, so that is about 1/3 of a lap playing on their favour.As we saw on Sunday, they are very strong in a fluid mid-to-high speed corner type of circuit, which, other than the horrible left-right-left-right slow part after sector 1, should see them competitive on race day as well.So, in my opinion, Ferrari will be competitive this weekend. The thing is that so will be McLaren and, probably, even RedBull.

So does anyone actually think Ferrari have any hope of a strong weekend at Korea or are we already resigned to hoping for Red Bull reliability and/or Grosjean to take out Vettel at turn one aka "damage limitation"? I am trying to stay optimistic but since Suzuka have yet to find any evidence that Ferrari can anticipate a strong outing this weekend...

Needing a bit of good luck. I can't see Alonso beating Vettel on speed in 3 of the remaining races, which he would need to do if no further DNFs are involved.

I understand you're frustrated as a passionate fan, so am I. But with all due respect, you're acting as if they owe you something. If you're so angry at Ferrari then you have a choice to stop supporting them.

I'm not "acting" anything. Ferrari does not owe me anything. I am, as you very well say, frustrated at how incompetent the higher ups at Ferrari have become.

Case and point: the wind tunnel churning out conflicting data (via useless parts) is something that should've been dealt with the first year, not the 3rd.

I tell you, if Ferrari does not wind the WDC this year something is going to happen within the team: either Santander pulls out of the relationship (I've read in forodecoches that they have a performance clause on their sponsorship contract), Alonso will get demoralized (this will be, most likely, the 2nd almost win at Ferrari) or Domenicali is FINALLY! fired.

Whatever happens will have a negative effect on the car, at least on the short term.

So does anyone actually think Ferrari have any hope of a strong weekend at Korea or are we already resigned to hoping for Red Bull reliability and/or Grosjean to take out Vettel at turn one aka "damage limitation"? I am trying to stay optimistic but since Suzuka have yet to find any evidence that Ferrari can anticipate a strong outing this weekend...

Yes, I think they can be strong.

There has been quite an exaggeration to the car's performance since Sunday (where Massa comfortably finished 2nd having not made it out of Q2)

I'm not "acting" anything. Ferrari does not owe me anything. I am, as you very well say, frustrated at how incompetent the higher ups at Ferrari have become.

Case and point: the wind tunnel churning out conflicting data (via useless parts) is something that should've been dealt with the first year, not the 3rd.

I tell you, if Ferrari does not wind the WDC this year something is going to happen within the team: either Santander pulls out of the relationship (I've read in forodecoches that they have a performance clause on their sponsorship contract), Alonso will get demoralized (this will be, most likely, the 2nd almost win at Ferrari) or Domenicali is FINALLY! fired.

Whatever happens will have a negative effect on the car, at least on the short term.

It's why Costa is not in the the team, and why Fry brough many Mclaren engineers to the team.

Well they have no other choice but to gamble at this point. Lose now or lose 5 races from now, in the end it's still a loss.

The headline is a bit sensationalist. The actual quotes by Fry to not say anything about unusual risks or gambling. The quotes that somewhat refer to risk are:

When you have a constant drive for performance, you need to take some risks and there will be four small updates on the car in Korea, with more significant changes in the races after that.

So what he is really saying is that there is always some risk.

"Overall for the last five races, we need to stay calm and ensure that everything we do counts. There's more to come, even if we have a way to go to catch up."

Rather the opposite of gambling.

Anyone knows the details of what updates Ferrari is preparing to bring to Korea?

As far as I have seen the best is the "there will be four small updates on the car in Korea, with more significant changes in the races after that", which several sites have reported including the article being discussed.

I'm guessing front and rear wing adjustments and perhaps a diffuser tweak. I don't think it will be anything particularly noticeable.

I have the impression that last week in Japan, Alonso spent all his practice time working on the updates that did not work while Massa found a good tweak for the working baseline. Hopefully this weekend both drivers can concentrate on furher improvements of Massa's setup.

I just hope we manage to get a double DRS sorted by the time we get to India. Qualifying towards the front in clearer air and away from 'the pack' is really going to be so important between now and the last race of the season.

I just hope we manage to get a double DRS sorted by the time we get to India. Qualifying towards the front in clearer air and away from 'the pack' is really going to be so important between now and the last race of the season.