Even in the Police Department , If we train to police a disorderly crowd or a riot , and we do train it once every three years. The first time there is a real riot , we wont know what the hell we are doing or it will take us inordinate amount of time to get situated.
But if we train on a regular basis when we need to do it in a real world situation we will quicker and more efficiently be able to make it work on a practical basis. To make anything work one must practice it regularly

Hand to hand combat, be it in the ring, on the street, or on the battlefield, all require the same attributes. The individual training programs may differ due to different aims, but there will be more that is the same than different.

A few tricks & gouges are less likely to save grandma's life than a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between.

If you believe otherwise, I recommend leaving this website. You will not convince anyone, as we have all learned from experience that tricks & eye gouges just don't cut it.

This is the most retarded post I've ever seen you post, & there's been some pretty stiff competition. I don't even have time to discuss how impractical it is to expect senior citizens to practice "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."
Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
NOT to make them "a contender".
Pull your head out, man, & quit trying to be such a e-hard ass.

"Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

"The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

"Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

This is the most retarded post I've ever seen you post, & there's been some pretty stiff competition.

You must not have been looking hard enough.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

I don't even have time to discuss how impractical it is to expect senior citizens to practice "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."

That's good, because I'll just talk about pushing hands with a 70-year old. Or the 80 year old I spent last weekend working on kali and Jeet Kune Do with at Paul Vunak's training camp.

Be sure you're not attacking strawmen. Make sure you're reading what I actually say, and not what you're wishing I'd say.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
NOT to make them "a contender".

That's good, because I'll just talk about pushing hands with a 70-year old. Or the 80 year old I spent last weekend working on kali and Jeet Kune Do with at Paul Vunak's training camp.

Yeah, because your two examples are representative of what most 70 & 80yo folks are capable of....

Be sure you're not attacking strawmen. Make sure you're reading what I actually say, and not what you're wishing I'd say.

I know what you said.

"A few tricks & gouges are less likely to save grandma's life than a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."

Isn't this what you said? What was your point, then? If the vast majority of senior citizens can't (or won't) keep up with your comprehensive demands for what is more likely "to save grandma's life", then what can you recommend? OF COURSE a widely comprehensive training program is better than tricks, but NOT if the geriatric individual can't do it. Remember who you're talking about. Sometimes it's not about the ground-n-pound but instead teaching Grandma the best places to stick 'em with her hat pin...

"Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

"The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

"Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

Yeah, because your two examples are representative of what most 70 & 80yo folks are capable of.....

Unlike you, I don't write anyone off. All of us have physical or mental handicaps and disabilities in one shape or form.

Everyone can benefit from Aliveness training...or is that something that should be left only to your CONTENDERS?

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

I know what you said.

No, no I don't think you do.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

Isn't this what you said? What was your point, then?

I said that Alive self-defense training is better than a few paltry eye gouges and pokes.

Are you saying that I am wrong?

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

If the vast majority of senior citizens can't (or won't) keep up with your comprehensive demands for what is more likely "to save grandma's life", then what can you recommend?

I have yet to meet anyone short of who cannot engage in some level of alive training to one degree or another.

Through the Adapt for Life program, I've worked with students with muscular dystrophy, parapalegics, even my blind 80-year old grandfather. All of them have factors they must work with that the rest of us may not, but that is no excuse to write them off.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

OF COURSE a widely comprehensive training program is better than tricks, but NOT if the geriatric individual can't do it.

The person who can't engage in some level of Alive training is flat out not going to be able to defend themselves, period. They're catatonic.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

Remember who you're talking about.

I have a better idea of what I'm talking about than you do, obviously. I'm the one actually training these people. You write Grandma off.

Originally Posted by Jim_Jude

Sometimes it's not about the ground-n-pound but instead teaching Grandma the best places to stick 'em with her hat pin...

Isn't this what you said? What was your point, then? If the vast majority of senior citizens can't (or won't) keep up with your comprehensive demands for what is more likely "to save grandma's life", then what can you recommend? OF COURSE a widely comprehensive training program is better than tricks, but NOT if the geriatric individual can't do it. Remember who you're talking about. Sometimes it's not about the ground-n-pound but instead teaching Grandma the best places to stick 'em with her hat pin...

You're arguing for the exceptions to the rule. I'm not, & I'm not writing the elderly off, I'm just a realist. Getting them to do a basic CaneMasters self defense program would be vastly more realistic and applicable than "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between"...
Oh, & please illuminate the issue with your "hat pin aliveness" training program.

"Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

"The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

"Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

What did any of this have to do with Bruce Tegner? And why was it important to necro it?

Jim_Jude, watch it. This kind of bullshit in the .org subforum will be harshly punished in the future. If you want to be the first head we display on the rampart, you are on track to achieve your perverse ambition.

What did any of this have to do with Bruce Tegner? And why was it important to necro it?

Jim_Jude, watch it. This kind of bullshit in the .org subforum will be harshly punished in the future. If you want to be the first head we display on the rampart, you are on track to achieve your perverse ambition.

nealboy necro'd this thread, not I. & it seemed that we were having an interesting discussion about self-defense training until DoucheAsslander chimed in claiming that if elderly people aren't willing to throw away the "dirty tricks" and train "alive" then they were just wasting their time. I of course disagree because I'm right, there are many options out there, from eye gouges, knees to the groin, use of canes & stuff like that. Expecting any senior citizen interested in defending themselves to go join the Lions' Den or something is fucking retarded.

I don't think that basic self-defense is all that hard to learn. Neither did Tegner, Fairbairn, the list goes on. That's what we were discussing. Sorry about that. I won't post on it further.

"Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

"The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

"Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney