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Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Lance had 3 turnovers last night. PG had 4. Lance was better in every way than Paul last night, yet Roy gives Paul a pass? How does this help the locker room at all?

That's a good point but this isn't about the last game. Lance was our best player along with Roy yesterday, that's absolutely clear. PG obviously had a very bad game. I don't believe that PG should get a pass but I understand where Hibbert is coming from.

I'll agree with the people that said that this seems like a clash of styles.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Come on, son. He was outplayed by Bynum and Mahinmi in consecutive nights. I know he wants to make it all about the offense, but his defense has slipped and his rebounding speaks for itself. It's almost unthinkably bad. I would have lost a substantial amount of money if someone asked me to bet whether an uninjured Hibbert would average under 5 boards per game for 3 weeks.

His defense has not slipped at all. He remains rock solid defensively. His rebounding has slipped but we all know the reasons for that. Just look at Lance's rebounding numbers and you'll see what happens.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Roy needs to ceck his self first
"His inability to switch and provide high-quality help defense has been quite problematic," B/R's Adam Fromal noted.

Since the All-Star break, Indiana has actually posted a better defensive rating when Hibbert is off the floor (101.8) than when he's on it (102.5), via NBA.com. On/off splits can be impacted by the other players on the floor, but Hibbert is the only Pacers starter who has helped this defense by grabbing a sideline seat.

He's also losing his impact on the glass. While never a particularly dominant rebounder, he did track down at least eight a night in each of the past two seasons. He's corralled just 5.2 over his last 16 games.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

McKey, you know that I was with you from the start when it came to Lance having the ball in his hands. You know that I'm in the "give Lance as much money as he wants" camp as well.

But I have an honest question.

Do you really think that Lance is playing like he wants to be a part of this team? Ever since he didn't get the All-Star nod his attitude seems a bit weird.

I agree earlier in the season Lance was running the offense and G. Hill was playing spit up shooter.. We were blowing teams out we had rhythm the ball moved easily.... G hill is not a creator.. Nor can he penetrate and cause the defense to work...

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I'm not saying Lance has been perfect (he hasn't), but blatantly calling him out while giving Paul a pass is utter ******** by Roy. He should be a better teammate than that, especially since he has been settling for his midrange jumper quite a bit prior to the 3rd quarter last night.

Ok, here is Hibbert's full statement:

"We've fallen in love with the jump shot for a while," Hibbert said. "People feel like they have it going and they want to do it themselves sometimes. That's just how it works. I feel like two guys that I have 100 percent trust in doing that is Paul and David. I feel like they should have carte blanche on whatever they want to do in terms of attacking the paint and (put) the ball's in their hands because they've earned my respect."

Hibbert continued.

"They're able to do it at a high level, even if they start off a little slow but I know they're going to bring it. Those guys have the green light whenever they have it, but other than that I think we should move the ball and get people involved."

He is simply calling out the team in general and says that they have fallen in love with the jump shot. That's absolutely true. Then he goes on saying that he has 100% trust in PG and David. That's something that makes sense since they are higher in the offensive hierarchy than him.

He isn't calling out anyone individually, my friend. All he said is that he thinks that we should move the ball more and get people involved. And he's right on that.

He isn't naming anyone and he isn't throwing anyone under the pass either. That's how I see it at least. I don't see him throwing any blame around with that statement.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I love Lance but the truth is that he is more inclined to pass the ball to Ian than he is to Roy. And we all know that Roy's hands are a lot better than Ian's. For whatever reason Lance does not have a good chemistry with Roy.

Maybe because Roy can move , catch passes, or finish at the rim... I would not want to pass him the ball either

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Time for Larry to bring the hammer down. I feel like he is the only one that could throw his weight around a little bit and get the job done quickly. Ever since Danny was traded, the locker room has probably been a mess. That's a big power vacuum to fill because even though Danny wasn't the same on the court, he was still a leader.

Does the team feel they betrayed Granger and that has caused a big rift to form? From what I can guess Danny was probably asked about the trade and said he would do it because he knew Philly would buy him out to let him go back home and still contend. So this is simply a lack of leadership. PG and Lance are both too young to give you veteran leadership and their brains will still be developing at least until 25. Hibbert and West are both post players. What do they really know about playing wing? Hill isn't a leader like Granger I don't think.

Larry is the only one with the clout and the experience at wing to make Lance and George listen. They need to feed off of each other more. Too much ISO. When they feed off each other like early in the year the opportunities open up for the rest of the squad. While the Pacers never have an elite offense, when it is efficient it makes it a lot easier for the defense and we are the best in the league. When the offense is struggling it puts a lot of pressure on them defensively.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Roy said he trusted PG and West. He didn't even say they always played well. He didn't say anyone not named Hibbert, West, or PGeorge was terrible. He phrased something focusing on the positive. We and the media have taken what he didn't say and made up words to fit it. Now all our criticism is based on those words that Roy never said - including being upset that he said what he didn't say.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Exactly. I think that this should be quoted in every single page of this thread in order to remind to people that Roy didn't actually blame anyone.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Yes, he can protect the rim but he's not rebounding well. Lance leads the team in assists, FG% and rebounds. Yes, more rebounds than our 7'2" center. Oh, I know his role is to protect the rim and let the guards clean up. Whateva...smh.

BnG, you know that I respect you a lot (even though we disagree on several issues) but I really cannot stand comments of this kind.

It's comment like these that make me wish that Roy lays out a really nasty elbow to the face of his next teammate that is going to fight him for a board. Just lay him down and let him bleed. I don't give a **** anymore. I'm tired of seeing people ******** on Roy because he does what Vogel has instructed him to do and allows the wings to rebound the ball while he is boxing out bigs.

I'm at a point in which I just want to see our bigs lay down our wings whenever they attempt to steal a board from them.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

McKey, you know that I was with you from the start when it came to Lance having the ball in his hands. You know that I'm in the "give Lance as much money as he wants" camp as well.

But I have an honest question.

Do you really think that Lance is playing like he wants to be a part of this team? Ever since he didn't get the All-Star nod his attitude seems a bit weird.

I think what you are seeing is what I alluded to in my previous post: he's frustrated that the offense isn't being run as effectively as possible, that is, with him (Lance) primarily running things. He's also frustrated watching Paul George as chucker. Who wouldn't be frustrated?

Nevertheless, this board seems unanimous that he gives the most effort of anyone on the team right now. And he does it on both ends. That's being "part of the team."

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I think what you are seeing is what I alluded to in my previous post: he's frustrated that the offense isn't being run as effectively as possible, that is, with him (Lance) primarily running things. He's also frustrated watching Paul George as chucker. Who wouldn't be frustrated?

Nevertheless, this board seems unanimous that he gives the most effort of anyone on the team right now. And he does it on both ends. That's being "part of the team."

Then how do you explain what TinManJoshua described in the end of page 5? Why was Lance complaining to his teammates when they scored out of a good shot? Is not getting the ball a good enough reason to complain even though the team scored?

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I don't disagree over the last 11 games he hasn't played his best basketball. All I'm saying is that he hasn't been a ball hog.

Regardless those numbers are not alarmingly inconsistent at all, yes he's taken more threes and 7 less free throws but that's nothing to be overly concerned about. A lot of that is because our offense has become stagnant.

But how can you compare those numbers to Paul's and not see the difference?

If any other teams best player had been shooting 40% for 2.5 months, almost half a season, they wouldn't blame the 2nd best player for taking 1 more 3 a game. They would blame the best player who takes the most shots.

People are ignoring Paul's struggles and calling it a slump and passing the buck to Lance, and it's unfair. This "slump" is over 30 games long now.

Paul is this teams all star player. He doesn't get a pass, but he does get a tad more leeway. He's earned that right now.

And I dont think Lance is hogging the ball. I just think over the last 20 plus games he's gotten away from the type of play that made him and the team effective. (I.E less orchestration, more long jump shot attempts) and its frustrating his teammates.

Are others playing poorly also? Yes they are. Inconsistent as well. But with that said we are assuming that Lance was singled out. There is a reason for that.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Then how do you explain what TinManJoshua described in the end of page 5? Why was Lance complaining to his teammates when they scored out of a good shot? Is not getting the ball a good enough reason to complain even though the team scored?

I have no idea what that's about. Regardless, it's quite anecdotal to make an entire case on.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I don't disagree over the last 11 games he hasn't played his best basketball. All I'm saying is that he hasn't been a ball hog.

I'm gonna stay away from calling him a "ball hog" but......

There's clearly an issue with his style of play. I don't know why it can't be admitted. When your teammates have been saying things about "team ball" for the past 2-3 weeks, and then another teammate comes out with a little more fire towards Lance's direction, I think it's safe to assume that they think he has, and their opinions far out-weigh ours.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Well, I guess if we are going to do this (be a whiney daycare class - or maybe a bunch of jr high girls) we might has well do it now instead of the last week or during a first round series.

I have been reading this thread and I haven't be able to shake my initial feeling...

it takes the world's largest sack to scapegoat someone else when all one would need to do is go look in the mirror to find a MAJOR component to this team's current underachieving performance.

I didn't see anything in the article other than this -

"I usually don't run the court like that but I said, if I have to be the first big guy down the court to get the ball, I'll start (running) to try and change it," Hibbert said. "Usually I'm not a sprinting type but tonight, I tried to do it."

Are you ****ing kidding me? So we do things when we feel like it? You do something and it yields a positive result, but your take away is that the team needs to adapt to the fact you don't normally feel like it, so they must find some other way to accommodate you?

Unbelievable.

I can't run the floor and get down to establish early position cause I'm the rim protector. I can't defend the high PnR which leaves GH out to dry because I'm the rim protector. I can't rebound because I'm the rim protector. I can't expend any effort on the offensive end because I gotta go back and be the rim protector.

It's like we are paying $15M for a guy to stand at the rim and be 7'2". Kinda like Chief in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

Real large stones.

I also have an extended rant on the Pre-Kimmel PG and the Post-Kimmel PG, but I have to go get another cup of coffee. The Gold Mamba gotta long way to go...

I have been as big a critic of Magic Stephenson as anyone, but he is currently not our biggest issue, not by a large margin. Our AllStars never came back from the AllStar game.

The good news is that this is coming at the same time we are deciding whether to make a major change in our $eason tix. Maybe I'll just keep my powder dry until the 31st to see if the "girls" can decide they can still be friends.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I have no idea what that's about. Regardless, it's quite anecdotal to make an entire case on.

It's not anecdotal, there's video evidence. Just watched it again and everything happened as the poster before stated. Hill scores a nice layup out of a pnr, Lance complains about not getting the ball and then starts complaining to our coaches during the opponent's possession. I am a firm believer in team ball and pains me to see anything like that especially when it was a great move by Hill. I love Lance, I think he's a player with a unique skill set that is really hard to find (hence the strong bias towards him by certain posters here imo), but he needs to get his stuff together. I mean down 6 with 1:28 left in the game and he throws a no look pass to the stands instead of a wide open Hill waiting for a spot up three when there is not even anyone on the other side of the lane to sell the no look? Completely pointless, style above substance. If Lance keeps it simple (as he's done earlier in the season), he's invaluable to our team. This Lance, still very important but not as much to pay 12-13 million for him imho.

And before anyone jumps on me, PG needs to look at himself, too. I don't know if it's his back or the hooker issue but ever since these happened, he went to middle class man's DeMar DeRozan. If our best player is a mediocre version of DeRozan, then we're in trouble. Hibbert, too, needs to stop *****ing about stolen rebounds by Lance. Our team benefits from getting the ball up as quickly as possible and we have a better chance to do this with Lance grabbing the easy rebound. I understand Hibbert to an extent, he's becoming a marquee player in the league that gets paid a lot and 4-5 rebounds will not cut it $wise when his agent sits down with the team/s. Then again the most important thing is winning, so despite Hibbert completely killing my fantasy team , I support Vogel with the "let Lance (or Paul or Hill) get the rebounds so that we don't start our offense with 14sec remaining on the clock". Also, Hibbert needs to learn that despite he's not being fed enough in the post and has lower FGA's, he should still pass out when he's in a difficult situation and not having perfect balance. Hibbert needs a good base to be effective and recently I saw him take a bad shot from a bad spot more often than not just because - in my observation - he feels that once he finally gets the ball, he must shoot it else he'll end up with no FGA's.

The whole team needs to get their *** together, no question. I personally like Hibbert speaking out but I understand people having issues with it. However, Hibbert is not the type to throw his teammates under the bus, I don't think he's ever done anything like that before so in my eyes, when he speaks up there must be a reason for it. And it's not like he actually threw anyone under the bus either so I am a bit easier on this. The fact that West spoke out as well helps with this point. The whole team needs a bit of fire and if Hibbert's comments will help I am all for them. If it backfires, I'll go eat my crow quick.

Our team is so talented, it'd be heartbreaking to see them falling apart. I agree with Vogel addressing the issue in a rosy way in public, no need to add fuel to the fire (the fans that follow the team on a daily basis know what's going on anyway..) but I really hope that he speaks up in the locker room with authority. Remember, he's done that in the past and if I memory serves, it worked wonders. Don't preach togetherness, do it.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I don't like Roy making these statements, at all. I don't think it's in any way helpful, if he has a problem with the way anyone is playing, one, look in the damn mirror, and two, tell Lance or George or whoever to their face. Maybe he has, but if that's the case it just makes it worse.

Regardless, I don't like Roy spouting off, but I have a much bigger problem with him, I think, feeling like he needs to. That's Frank's job but he won't do it. We all know Frank's 100% pat on the back you're the best positivity, but eventually you've got to be critical. When he took over for a dickhead that went out of his way to do nothing but run them down it made sense, instill confidence and belief in self and all that. But we're FAR past that, we're supposed to be a title contender. Building them up is great, but you can only build them up so far, we're not that talented a team. Frank can kiss all the *** he wants but now he's got them thinking they're better than they are.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Do all of you thinking Roy doesn't run down the court because he doesn't want to understand how our offense is designed? Roy is usually NOT SUPPOSED TO RUN DOWN THE COURT. The big man trails so as not to slow the offense down behind him in transition - even on an in-bounds play his job is to run interference for the ballhandlers.

He CHOSE to override this time because he THOUGHT IT WAS A WAY TO GET HIM MORE INVOLVED IN ORDER TO HELP THE TEAM. And, did you notice how gassed he was after the period where he did that? Vogel didn't sit him down because of stupidity or inflexibility, it was because Roy was absolutely wiped out.

But, yeah, let's lay everything on Roy because he's so lazy he doesn't lead the transition every single time for 35 minutes a game.

Come on, guys. Take the whole picture into account, don't just pick out a phrase and jump on it out of the blue.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

I do want to mention that the guy who has fought the hardest just to condition his body to play more than 15 minutes a game is now saying he'll be the first guy down the floor if that's what it takes to get the ball. The guy who has asthma, and could barely run when he got into the league.

And he's getting blasted for "not trying in the first place".

Come on guys. Just because you're in the NBA doesn't mean your stamina tank never empties. Roy has taken massive steps to improve his conditioning, but he'll never, ever run the floor like a Deandre Jordan or even a Ryan Hollins. He's plodding because that's what he is.

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Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Yeah, we should expect our 7'2" center to run baseline to baseline like a guard on every possession.

I've got an idea, let's tell the guy who anchors our defense, who challenges everything at the rim, who has asthma, who dives on the floor at any given opportunity (and falls on the floor at any given opportunity) to play more like DJordan. Hey, they're both centers, they're both over 7ft, so if Jordan can do it, so can Roy!

There's plenty of blame to lay at the feet of Roy, without having to come up with unreachable expectations.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Then in my opinion, we need to have a serious discussion about that during the next contract talks. This is NBA. Your opponent is not going go easy on you. And should you pay $15M+ for "limited" production.

Never said Roy isn't a great human, but for him to come out and point fingers just galls.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

Then in my opinion, we need to have a serious discussion about that during the next contract talks. This is NBA. Your opponent is not going go easy on you. And should you pay $15M+ for "limited" production.

Never said Roy isn't a great human, but for him to come out and point fingers just galls.

That's a strange word to use for what you and I are discussing. I'd call it limited "athleticism". And Roy wouldn't be the first player in NBA history with limited "athleticism" to have a major contract.

Re: Roy Hibbert calls out Lance and maybe George Hill?

That's a strange word to use for what you and I are discussing. I'd call it limited "athleticism". And Roy wouldn't be the first player in NBA history with limited "athleticism" to have a major contract.

I agree with you on that. This league has a long trail of really obscene contracts which don't match reality. And I get that you can't coach 7'2" so this league has always carried big men just cause they are rare.

And I do realize Roy has an extremely loyal base so let's just leave it at this.

"You are paid a boatload of money for an extremely limited game. But we are going to excuse your limited game because its not your fault, but please I just don't want to hear it."

The people who work for me and come into my office to talk about all the great things they are doing or are going to do, and how they should be getting this, that or they other, I always say...