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Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

BTW using losing 1-4 to the Bulls in the playoffs (on paper it looks bad but that series was much closer believe me) to explain how this wasn't turn around is about like those who would use the fact that Danny Granger didn't play much on team USA as an excuse to tell us why he was a bad player. In other words it doesn't work.

The same team with the same players made the playoffs when Satan in all of his years here never once sniffed the playoffs and this team was well below the playoff threshold when Frank took over.

No, the more I think about it hiring Frank Vogel may go down as one of the single most significant acts in Pacers history.

I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to marginalize what we did at the end of the 10-11 season and the playoff series against Chicago. It was clearly a turning period for the franchise and it felt like heaven after the disastrous O'Brien years. Vogel finishing the season 20-18 after the team started out 17-27 was certainly a phenomenal coaching job. There's no doubt that Vogel taking over is one of the most important moments in franchise history.

That being said, regardless of how great of a coach Vogel is, that team needed more playmakers if they were ever going to become a true contender. We desperately needed more players who could make clutch plays because our weakness against Chicago was that we simply couldn't close out. Well, Bird went out and got Vogel those players when he added West and Hill.

At the end of the day, debating the importance of Vogel vs. West is like debating a Ferrari vs. a Lamborghini. The bottom line is that virtually everything this franchise has done from 08-present has turned out incredibly well. We've witnessed the complete rebirth of a franchise and fanbase.

Maybe the most important move was Bird taking complete control in 2008 and finally having the freedom to mold a team 100% his way.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

Yea I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Perhaps as you said maybe it's what we consider turning it around. Obviously you consider a turn around to be about being a contender and I respect that. However I consider taking us off of the treadmill to nowhere to be the first step in the turn around. In fact I consider it to be the most important step.

Sure West is a leader but at the end of the day he isn't the coach. He doesn't set the plays, make the rotations or design the defense. That's all coaching. The fact that David West totally has bought in and is leading the team is a testament to both his willingness and abilities however it is equally a testament to Frank Vogel being legitimate (there's that word again) because you are not going to be able to B.S. a player like West and West would not buy into something he didn't believe in.

I also think West is vital to our club and I'm going to go ahead and say that he is the best NBA power forward we have ever had (Big Mac is from a different era) but to me him being here would not matter nearly as much if we were coached by a "system coach" who makes players adapt to their style and can't/won't fit the style to match the players.

BTW using losing 1-4 to the Bulls in the playoffs (on paper it looks bad but that series was much closer believe me) to explain how this wasn't turn around is about like those who would use the fact that Danny Granger didn't play much on team USA as an excuse to tell us why he was a bad player. In other words it doesn't work.

The same team with the same players made the playoffs when Satan in all of his years here never once sniffed the playoffs and this team was well below the playoff threshold when Frank took over.

No, the more I think about it hiring Frank Vogel may go down as one of the single most significant acts in Pacers history.

I am taking the long view of things and looking at it in general terms.

I suppose I bristle at the notion that the team when a Frank took over and things turned around as if the team was ready to take off at that moment. Significantly different team now.

Trust me I am in no way being critical of Frank, just suggesting the growth of Roy, PG, additions of Hill, a West and growth of lance along with frank is why the change

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

PG is falling to in love with this 3pt shot again. He seems to do this time and time again. Especially when he makes a few early, he then seems to find a way to force a few more which make you smack your head and say reallly?

I'd need to watch the tape again, but it felt like the Clips "gave" Paul looks a few times at the corner three... and he's right to take those high value shots when they are there.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

I'd need to watch the tape again, but it felt like the Clips "gave" Paul looks a few times at the corner three... and he's right to take those high value shots when they are there.

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Late in the game when your trying to slow down their offense you do not shoot quick three point shots. They were on a run and continued to get points off our poor shot selection. We have a 7'2 monster for a reason, during that stretch of the game is when he is most valuable.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

"Iím probably going to jinx us but I just have the feeling that we are going to lay waste to the Blazers."

JINX!!!! j/k Paul George tried his best though...

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

I forgot about English. Heywoode Workman though? Look I loved the guy but he was not a big time free agent.

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Scott was certainly the bigger name. Workman started many games in 94 as well as all the playoff games and was a vital & mandatory piece in a very good defense in both 94 & 95. Scott hit big shots, played solid bench minutes and brought a little Laker swagger/winning time culture to the picture. Both were key cogs in the development of that Pacer team (a lot of it intangibles) but given the stage of Scott's career I'm not convinced the overall impact on those teams was that much greater.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

Yeah, games like their loss to OKC last night are schedule losses... Minnesota has already had six back-to-backs, while OKC has had only one. Wolves have also played the most games in the NBA as of last night (tied with Boston). I think their play will definitely come right back up once their schedule eases a bit... and once LRMAM and Chase Budinger become regular contributors. I think early-season Minnesota was more indicative of their quality than this recent rough stretch.

In comparison, the Pacers have only had 6 back-to-backs and have lost all but four of them. Compared to the Wolves' 19 games the Pacers have played just 18. Anyone using the phrase "schedule loss" for the Pacers will be ridiculed.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Odd Thoughts: Sinking the Clippers

In comparison, the Pacers have only had 6 back-to-backs and have lost all but four of them. Compared to the Wolves' 19 games the Pacers have played just 18. Anyone using the phrase "schedule loss" for the Pacers will be ridiculed.

The Pacers are also a much better team than the Timberwolves. Still a total schedule loss, going into OKC on a back-to-back when they're finishing a six-game home stand.