On 24/06/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>I have a hard time understanding the logic of the terrorists

I agree that its a fuched up thing to do, but I don't think the logic is at all hard to understand. Don't forget that there are American drones flying about Pakistan, killing folk who are going about their normal business on a weekly basis.

I assume this attack was in Fairy Meadow. Less than a days drive from where they killed Osama Bin Ladin. In one of the poorest areas in the world, with a 25million dollar bounty on his head, no-one sold him out.

On 25/06/2013 uwhp510 wrote:>On 24/06/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>I have a hard time understanding the logic of the terrorists>>I agree that its a fuched up thing to do, but I don't think the logic>is at all hard to understand. Don't forget that there are American drones>flying about Pakistan, killing folk who are going about their normal business>on a weekly basis.>>PS: Whaddup N$A

Reports are that the dead are "five Ukrainians, three Chinese and a Russian" as well as a Pakistani. How's that an attack on the US? Just sounds like banditry.

You can be guaranteed that they will find them. Pakistan has a close relationship with China and the Chinese mountaineers were most likely from the Chinese military. That will move some behind the scenes work in Pakistan.

On 25/06/2013 The good Dr wrote:>You can be guaranteed that they will find them. Pakistan has a close relationship>with China and the Chinese mountaineers were most likely from the Chinese>military. That will move some behind the scenes work in Pakistan.
I think you're spot on there. Here's a bit from The News website (Pakistan). Pity help the poor suspects who have been "shifted to unidentified place for interrogation" because it's probably not going to matter whether they were involved or not.

"GILGIT: The security forces have rounded up over 37 suspects during a search operation launched in different villages after killing of eleven persons including 10 foreign tourists at a base camp of Nanga Parbat in Diameer district of Gilgit-Baltistan on Sunday.

The above suspects taken into custody have been shifted to unidentified place for interrogation.

DIG Gilgit-Baltistan told the media that police, army and scouts are taking part in search operation.

Meanwhile, hundreds of people staged demonstration and sit-in at Siddique Akbar roundabout of Chilas, the district headquarter town of Diameer on Monday to condemn the killings, demanding arrest of killers. All the shops and other businesses remained closed."

Whilst i agree it's terrible, and awful for the people involved and community in which it happened, I am always uneasy when events like this suddenly get a lot of attention, because people are killed in volatile areas of the world everyday, and almost noone gives a damn. It isn't just these publicised events that are terrible and tragic. All those everyday assaults, killings, dislocations and anonymous mostly poor and nonwestern people starving, homeless and terrified are also terrible and tragic. I wish more people would recognise these events are everyday for some people and they need more support and help too.

Debating what is 'logical' here, as has been done on a number of sites, is irrelevant. This is an act of hate, not logic. Even if the attackers understood* the distinction between the nationalities, they did not necessarily care. It was a deliberate attack on foreign tourists, non-combatants in any war, for revenge (and robbery) and to repel tourists from the area, hurting the government, depriving the real locals of income and limiting contact with outsiders for political gain. Mere bandits don't need to do this, and in this area, would not.

I'm no fan of the drone program and I sympathise with the locals who get caught up in it all. But any implication of moral equivalence between the two acts, that even hints at justifying some kind of tit-for-tat, is both ignorant and pointlessly insensitive. If anyone thinks the US is deliberately targeting civilian non-combatants they should get active with our government and raise a voice - not turn it on this event.

I've been to the Karakoram four times, three of those times going past this area en route to Hunza. I've even been caught in Sunni-Shia riots in Gilgit. I always knew something like this may one day happen, but it would be inaccurate to say I expected it and I certainly hoped it would never happen.

*I'm a 6'7" white guy and I've been asked in Hunza if I'm from Japan. The levels of basic education and knowledge of the outside world are worse than many people realise. This is one of the main reasons groups like the Taliban can take hold. They fill a void.

here's a six degree of seperation thing. one of my climbing mates from ukraine says one of the survivors is a friend of his. the climbing community in ukraine is pretty small so it will definitely impact people there. as will the death of the other climbers in their communities. the other thing, ukrainians climbers save for multiple years to go to asia for a climbing trip. to have your lifelong dream shattered by hateful violent animals is horrible insult to evil injury. i hope the region pulls together to welcome and protect any climbers or visitors.

Very well said Damo.
Quite sad to see people on this forum being so naive and ready to accept some kind of Western guilt to the extent that it turns to attempts to justify unjustifiable actions. Btw, I lived in Central Asia for many years, it's a different world guys. Yes, Taliban was created by Americans but this kind of massacre could have happened without Taliban.

And yes, Ukrainian and Russian climbers are in shock. For many of them, Nanga Parbat is/was a dream and many of them knew the deceased personally. Climbing community is quite big there but everyone knows each other anyway.

A bunch of misguided and desperate f**ks mounting an attack in whatever way they can to effect the greatest impact they can - guerilla warfare - terrorism - rebellion - revolution - its all tried and trusted techniques that have been around for thousands of years. It truly sucks to be on the receiving end. I feel for you.

I certainly wouldn't make excuses for violence on anyone's behalf, appalling behavior on behalf of western military interventions included, but i do think it's a bit rich to ask one of the poorer areas in the word to "pull together to welcome and protect visitors and tourists". How about supporting them to protect their own residents for starters? And other basics like health, education, housing, food and water ....

On 26/06/2013 Wendy wrote:>I certainly wouldn't make excuses for violence on anyone's behalf, appalling>behavior on behalf of western military interventions included, but i do>think it's a bit rich to ask one of the poorer areas in the word to "pull>together to welcome and protect visitors and tourists". How about supporting>them to protect their own residents for starters? And other basics like>health, education, housing, food and water ....

"Pakistan has been beset by militancy for years, but this attack will likely be especially disruptive to tourism because it struck foreign tourists in what is usually one of the most peaceful regions of the country.:"

"The region has also attracted Pakistanis looking for a respite from the summer heat in the southern part of the country."

"Thousands of families in Gilgit-Baltistan depend on the seasonal tourist trade. Families often work for three to four months in the summer and then live off that income for the rest of the year."

try reading reports of the situation first before opening that gob of yours wendy.

Paul, just because people depend on tourists for a living does not mean that governments and aid should not be provided to the people of the country first. Tourism in many areas of the world is fraught with problems and exploitation of locals who have no other options and that's a whole extra discussion. A lot of poor countries devote unbalanced resources to keeping visitors safe, because they want to create a good image, bring tourists to their country, etc etc. I think asking them to do so at the cost of their own people is questionable. Note the bit about Pakistan has been beset by militants for years - militants (and in some cases also militaries) who also attack and terrorise local people. And if you want to argue that resources should go here, because this was one of the "most peaceful regions of Pakistan" - well, that also seems like questionable allocation of limited resources. And none of this changes my original point - people are subject to these sorts of events all around the world, everyday, and it is often unmentioned until it is tourists who are attacked.

On 26/06/2013 Cliff wrote:>Agreed, but think "suck" doesn't quite express the hurt felt. What I don't>get is why the "misguided and desperate f**ks" don't fight fair like us?>I mean what are they saving all their drones, tanks, and helicopters for>anyway, New Years?

Yeah the f**cks should take up using IED's or turn civilian aircraft into missiles like normal desperates.