Rather than just questioning the sugar industry, we could do the same for the meat and dairy industries as well:

Articles like these that offer "nuggets of proof" that saturated fat-laden foods can be eaten guiltlessly have created a feeding frenzy within the meat, dairy, and egg industries. As a direct result, hundreds of millions of people worldwide—especially those who are looking to "hear good news about their bad habits"—will die of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and obesity, and if left unchallenged, resulting increases in livestock production will accelerate global warming even faster than the current rate.

The lay press has gone wild with advice to eat more saturated fat. NPR stories question "fat as a villain," and famous food and cooking writers, like Mark Bittman, tell us, "Butter is Back." Even rotund physician Andrew Weil, MD recommends eating lard.https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2014nl/mar/krauss2.htm

Through most of human history, the bulk of most cultures' food intake has been unrefined carbohydrates such as rice, corn, potatoes, wheat, etc., rather than fats and refined sugars:

Mc Dougall plan reception
McDougall's namesake diet, The McDougall Plan, has been categorized as a fad diet with possible disadvantages including a boring food choice, flatulence and the risk of feeling hungry.[2] Reviewing McDougall's book, The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Frederick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality".[15]

Mc Dougall plan reception
McDougall's namesake diet, The McDougall Plan, has been categorized as a fad diet with possible disadvantages including a boring food choice, flatulence and the risk of feeling hungry.[2] Reviewing McDougall's book, The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Frederick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality".[15]

That article is inaccurate, since it doesn't differentiate between the Maximum Weight Loss Diet, which is intended for the short-term, and the starch-based diet, which is a long-term, lifestyle change. It's basic science that if 80% of your calories are from unrefined starches, you'll weigh less and have less diet-related diseases.

Ayu wrote:In my estimation, low fat diet is outdated, because many people tried it and failed. It is a diet for malnutrition.

There are different kinds of low fat diets. An evidence-based, starch-based diet causes a person to feel full and it provides the nutrients a person needs. This is not a starvation-based diet.

Potatoes have all or most of the essential nutrients a person needs, and they are very filling. Imagine if potatoes, rice, oats, corn, etc. formed the bulk of your diet, and you ate fruits and vegetables as a side item. That would be a filling and nutritious diet.

Dharma Flower wrote:The important thing is to find the diet that's right for you as an individual, that is both nutritious and satisfying.

I agree.
A diet has to be a lifelong effort. Temporary diets lead to yo-yo effect only, proved by millions of obesed people who became really fat after several diets. I heard a woman (260 pounds) say: "It's easy for me to diet, but nobody taught me how to keep the low weight then afterwards."

I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Something I recently learned is that over-consumption of animal fat is a greater risk factor for diabetes than carbohydrates. This concerns me since I am pre-diabetic.:

High GI and Obesity
Over the past two decades, consumption of foods with high glycemic index values have been associated with various
chronic diseases, including type-2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, obesity, and cancer. However, the data
are far from clear and consistent—as a result, the usefulness of the GI for the treatment of diabetes and obesity is
debated. Some organizations like the Canadian Diabetic Association, consider this tool useful, while the American
Diabetic Association dismisses the value of GI in treating diabetes.6

Neither high nor low GI carbohydrates results in excess calorie consumption or weight gain. In fact, a highcarbohydrate
diet is crucial in preventing weight gain in those with a tendency for obesity.7,8 Carbohydrate consumption
promotes satisfaction of the appetite and higher GI foods do this even better than low GI foods—because
the elevation of the blood sugar after eating is one of the key mechanisms in satisfying the appetite and reducing
food intake.9

Worldwide, populations of hundreds of millions of people who eat high GI potatoes (Peruvians) and
rice (Asians) are trim and active for a lifetime. Compare this worldwide observation to populations of obese people
living in the USA, Australia, and Western Europe who feast daily on low GI sugars, fats, meats, and cheeses.

Fat, Not Sugar, Causes Diabetes
According to a statement by the American Diabetes Association, “…there is little evidence that total carbohydrate is
associated with the development of type 2 diabetes. Rather, a stronger association has been observed between
total fat and saturated fat and type 2 diabetes.”10 Multiple studies have shown an inverse relationship between the
amount of carbohydrate consumed and the development of diabetes.11 Populations of people worldwide who eat
diets centered on high glycemic index carbohydrates, like rice for rural Asians, and potatoes for people in Peru, are
essentially free of diabetes.12,

The reasons why carbohydrates benefit diabetics have their roots in our fundamental metabolism. As far back as
1936 Harold Percival Himsworth reported that the ability of insulin to lower blood sugar was improved by eating carbohydrates.15
In contrast, fats in the diet paralyze the activity of insulin, cause insulin resistance, and cause the
blood sugars to rise.11 All these changes, combined with the resulting obesity from eating fatty foods, encourage
the development of type-2 diabetes. For people now following the Western diet, a change to a low-fat, highcarbohydrate
diet slows progression to diabetes.16,17 This same diet will cure type-2 diabetes.18-20https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl ... 0700gi.pdf

The biggest thing right now is I feel like I've been lied to all my life, as to think that starches are unhealthy:

Potatoes Are Naturally Slimming

In our society where over-nutrition is the problem, some experts consider a high glycemic index value for a food a fundamental health hazard. But they are mistaken – as you noticed above, the really fattening foods, like sugar, candy bars, and ice cream, are the ones with a low GI. The potato, with a high GI, does not deserve a reputation for being fattening, because as I will show, it is virtually impossible to consume too many calories from potatoes.

One 5-ounce baked potato has 150 calories. An active man may burn 3000 calories a day and a woman 2300 calories a day. That means the man would have to eat 20 potatoes and the woman 15 potatoes or they would lose weight. That’s 5 to 7 large potatoes per meal, three times a day – a big dent in even the hardiest appetite – especially considering potatoes are among the most satisfying of all foods (see below).

When it comes to the national health epidemic of obesity there are only three food issues to consider:

1) Don’t Be Dense. Potatoes are at the bottom of the list of calorie dense foods, at one calorie per gram. By comparison, sugar, cheese, and beef are about 4 calories per gram and vegetable oils are 9 calories per gram.

2) The Fat You Eat Is the Fat You Wear. Potatoes are 1% fat – so there are virtually no fat calories to wear. By comparison beef and cheese can be 70% fat and butter is 100% fat.

3) Carbohydrate Satisfies the Hunger Drive. Potatoes are at the top of the carbohydrate list with about 90% of the calories from appetite-satisfying carbohydrates. Beef, fish, chicken, butter, and olive oil are a few examples of commonly consumed foods with no carbohydrates. Only 2% of the calories from cheese come from carbohydrates.

One of the strongest risk factors for type II diabetes and heart disease is excess body fat. Therefore, any expert who says potatoes will lead to diabetes or obesity is ignoring the bulk of the scientific and nutrition literature. And they are ignoring an observation anyone can make: People living on diets high in starch (like Japanese and Chinese) are trim, young, and active people with very low rates of diabetes.https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2002nl ... tatoes.htm

Maybe potatoes are so demonized because they are not as profitable as other foods. A ten pound bag of potatoes is amazingly cheap.

Try something that isn't that extreme. Don't ask people who earn their money with selling diet-theories. Ask people who succeeded in reducing weight in longterm view. They'll tell you: we need starches, fat and proteins. Preferably natural food and very much vegetables.
My last word in this thread.

I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

Another thing is I want to vomit when I think of where animal foods come from. Not only are they high in unhealthy fat, which is gross in itself, but we have to take on faith that it didn't come from a diseased animal.

Vegetable fat, in moderation, is healthier than animal fat:

How much fat can we safely eat?

According to the USDA dietary guidelines 2010, 20-35% of total calories for an adult can come from just fat. These figures contrast sharply with many experts in the field of diet and nutrition who have a great number of years of experience and success when it comes to helping people restore their health. They all promote a much lower figure of daily dietary fat intake.

• Dr Colin Campbell the author of the famous book on nutrition called the ‘China Study’ promotes around 10% being the ideal fat intake from whole plant foods.

• Dr Neal Barnard a well known plant foods diet advocate recommends that around 10% of total daily calories should come from whole plant fats.

• Dr D. Graham, sports nutritionist, author, and the father of the 80/10/10 movement recommends no more than 10% fat on average.

• Dr Dr Caldwell Esselstyn a general surgeon and researcher conducted his own study and had great success putting his heart patients on a whole foods plant diet that contained around 10% of its total daily calories as fats. Those who followed his diet healed themselves of heart disease.

All of these health professionals agree that approximately 10% of total daily calories coming from fat is most optimal.

Indeed, most other health professionals agree that the magic percentage could be as high as the teens, but certainly no higher. It is only government bodies like the USDA that recommend people should consume between 20% and 35% due to the influence of the food industries.http://www.rawsomehealthy.com/how-much- ... -much-fat/

From a previous post by DharmaFlower: 'Through most of human history, the bulk of most cultures' food intake has been unrefined carbohydrates such as rice, corn, potatoes, wheat, etc., rather than fats and refined sugars."

Yes, and fats and refined sugars were reserved for the wealthy. More importantly, most people did some type of manual labor for a living, and utilized the high carbohydrate potato/starchy diet to provide energy. Carbohydrates are of two types -simple, ie things that taste sweet, like sugar, honey, candy - and complex, like potatoes, beans, etc. Fruit sugar is a simple sugar. Beer is a complex carbohydrate. What isn't used up by muscles is stored as fat.

Today in our mostly sedentary lives, a diet consisting mainly of sugar - potatoes, starches, and fruit - will inevitably lead to weight gain and possibly diabetes unless one has a concurrent regular exercise regime. A better choice for weight loss is higher protein, moderate carb, and moderate high-quality fats.

Also, IMO, much of the dietary information found online is crap. You can always find someone, somewhere who will give "data" supporting what you want to believe.

Disclaimer: FWIW, I am not a dietician, am an RN, vegetarian for 35 years, slightly underweight for my height. YMMV.

To everyone’s surprise, the book, called “The China Study,” has since sold 500,000 copies, making it one of the country’s best-selling nutrition titles. The book focuses on the knowledge gained from the China Study, a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine that showed high consumption of animal-based foods is associated with more chronic disease, while those who ate primarily a plant-based diet were the healthiest.

Last fall, former President Bill Clinton even cited the book in explaining how he lost 24 pounds by converting to a plant-based diet in hopes of improving his heart health. The president gave up dairy, switching to almond milk, and says he lives primarily on beans and other legumes, vegetables and fruit, although he will, on rare occasions, eat fish.https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/ ... ina-study/

The study established a causal relationship between dietary patterns and chronic diseases. The standard American diet, which typically includes high consumption of animal-based foods (meat, dairy and fat) and low consumption of plant foods (whole grains, vegetables, fruits, beans, peas, and lentils), was found to contribute “to low-grade systemic inflammation and oxidative tissue stress and irritation, placing the immune system in an overactive state.” In addition, it contributes to a host of diseases including cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and arthritis. Even small amounts of animal-based food were associated with a small but measurable increase in risk of these chronic diseases.

The China study proved the healthiest diets may be based on whole, plant foods; the more plant-based foods and the fewer animal-based foods in the diet, the better the health outcomes may be.https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/china-study/

justsit wrote:
Yes, and fats and refined sugars were reserved for the wealthy. More importantly, most people did some type of manual labor for a living, and utilized the high carbohydrate potato/starchy diet to provide energy. Carbohydrates are of two types -simple, ie things that taste sweet, like sugar, honey, candy - and complex, like potatoes, beans, etc. Fruit sugar is a simple sugar. Beer is a complex carbohydrate. What isn't used up by muscles is stored as fat.

Thankfully, I already don't drink alcohol and I have little sugar in my diet. The reason why I am interested in a diet based on complex carbohydrates like potatoes, corn, rice, whole wheat, etc., is because these foods are low in fat and highly satisfying.

Most people are completely backwards about the diet that results in health and an attractive appearance. They learn, “Don’t eat starches, because rice turns to sugar, which turns to fat, making you gain weight.” If this mantra were true then there would be an epidemic of obesity among the 1.73 billion Asians living on rice-based diets. Confirming this truth, after moving west and replacing their starch with “high-protein” foods, then people from Japan and the Philippines would become trimmer and healthier looking. Is that what you see? “Potatoes are fattening.” If true, then why during the 2000 McDougall Adventure trip to Peru, a country where common potatoes are the staple food, were the residents so trim and strong looking? We did see a few overweight people on this trip. The “chubby ones” were the waiters and chefs serving tourists their favorite meat and cheese dishes, and obviously sampling the menu.

Let’s look together at a globe of the Earth and identify the populations of people who look the youngest, healthiest, and trimmest. Those living in Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, and the Philippines stand out. Their diet is mostly rice with some vegetables. In rural Mexico we will find beautiful people eating corn, beans, and squash. No one is overweight or on a diet there. The men, women and children of central New Guinea are nourished almost entirely by sweet potatoes. These people have no need for Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig. Worldwide, populations with the highest consumption of starch are the trimmest and fittest.1 Learn about the health of these trim people and you will discover that they also have extremely low rates of diabetes, arthritis, gallbladder disease, constipation, indigestion, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, and cancers of the breast, prostate, and colon.https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl ... ionate.htm

The main reason why I've so far avoided a vegetarian diet is because I don't want a diet based on unsatisfying foods. I didn't learn, until recently, that we've been mostly lied to or deceived regarding the health effects of unrefined starches.

“The low-carb group lost significantly more weight (about 3 times as much)… Overall, the low-carb diet had significantly more beneficial effects on weight and key biomarkers in this group of severely obese individuals.”

“The low-carb group lost significantly more weight, especially the men. This was despite the fact that they ended up eating more calories than the low-fat group.”

“Overall, the low-carb group lost more weight and had much greater improvements in several important risk factors for cardiovascular disease.”

”The change in dietary advice to promote low-fat foods is perhaps the biggest mistake in modern medical history.“

“Nina Teicholz, a science journalist and author of the The Big Fat Surprise, said a lot of the early anti-fat push came from the American Heart Association (AHA), which based its anti-fat stance on the fact that fat is roughly twice as calorie-dense as protein and carbohydrates. ‘They had no clinical data to show that a low-fat diet alone would help with obesity or heart disease,’ Teicholz told Tonic. But because fat was high in calories, they adopted this anti-fat position, and the government followed their lead. Surely the 1960s research rigged by the Sugar Association, which was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, added to our collective fat fears.”

I, personally, struggled with being overweight most of my life and was obese. I tried everything and pushed myself through the conventional “healthy diets”. Switching to fats almost two years ago changed my life: contrary to conventional dietary wisdom, now that I eat more fat than anything else (a lot of butter, coconut oil, nuts and vegetables), my risk for diabetes, cardiovascular disease and so forth is essentially nil, a far-cry from how my biomarkers were. I started to eat at least two tablespoons of grass-fed butter a day and claimed a ridiculously clean bill of health doing it, as exemplified by the participants eating high-fat in the studies I shared.

Dharma Flower wrote:The main reason why I've so far avoided a vegetarian diet is because I don't want a diet based on unsatisfying foods. I didn't learn, until recently, that we've been mostly lied to or deceived regarding the health effects of unrefined starches.

"Feeling full" is a learned response. How do you know a veggie diet is unsatisfying if you haven't tried it?? It's not that difficult.

No one is saying unrefined starches are absolutely unhealthy. But as a the major component for a weight loss diet? Highly unlikely to be effective, unless maybe you're running marathons or pro cycling.

Let's do an experiment and take this out of the realm of theory. Maintain your starchy diet for six months and come back and tell us how much you lose. Post your starting weight here today, and post your weight again on Jan. 2. No cheating!

Through most of human history, the bulk of most cultures' food intake has been unrefined carbohydrates such as rice, corn, potatoes, wheat, etc., rather than fats and refined sugars:

This is a misleading argument in terms of health.

#1 - Most societies prior to today were not made of up of mostly sedentary people, generally speaking only people who are extremely physically active need loads of carbs, it's the same with children - who (if healthy) are burning calories at an accelerated rate due to moving constantly, metabolism, etc. Few adults living in a first world society are active enough to justify the large amounts of carbohydrates, fats, OR damn near anything else they consume.

#2 Diets since the agricultural revolution have been based on carbs not because they are healthy necessarily, but because they are cultivated on a large scale and are economically feasible. Eating mostly grains has to do with how our society functions as much as it does anything to do with health.

Not coming out either way, I feel like -some- of the anti-grain nonsense is just that, nonsense. Nonetheless, ask any MD or ND worth their salt and they will point out to you that sedentary people should not be engaging in consumption of lots of carbohydrates, it's really common sense.

Meaning no offense, this argument also makes it easy to guess your age range, as once you hit middle age you will find out real quick what packs on pounds;)

I'm sure everyone is different, but if you are at risk of metabolic syndrome (I am also), as you approach middle age, you are crazy to go on a high-carb diet.

That doesn't mean you need to eat meat, you can be mostly or all vegetarian and still eat well, but basing your diet on starchy carbs if you are prone to diabetes is really just insane, I'd advise you to visit a well-informed ND or MD before even contemplating such a decision.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”