I found 15 usable G2a4's with 67 markers on the Haplogroup G project. All are at least G2a4 or L91, 5 are L166-, 9 are L166 unknown, and 1 is L166+ or G2a4a. There are 1 Dutch, 2 German, 2 Italian, and1 Moroccan. The rest are British Isles, USA, and unknown origin. With a rather limited sample I thought an intraclade may be a better estimate in this case, instead of splitting the sample for an even more rough interclade attempt.

Result..G=273+/-25 or 6190 BC +/- 750 yrs. @30 yrs/G. The coalescence time in G was 201 or 4030 BC. Ken or someone else knowledgeable should be able to explain the meaning of coalescence vs. intraclade. The intraclade estimate is right around the time of LBK in central Europe and would make sense if Otzi is indeed G2a4 and a neolithic descendant.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct. It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello). Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant. R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations.

I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.

I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.

I remember a few years ago the claim was that G2 in Europe got there with the Sarmatians. That argument was advanced based on the presence of a lot of G2 among the modern Ossetians. I argued back then that I didn't think the Sarmatians were G2 but that the Ossetians had gotten to have so much G2 by living among so many G2 neighbors in the Caucasus. I think the Sarmatians were probably mostly R1a, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know what significance this has, but, as I recall, the only remains in the Ergolding cave with weapons, spurs, and chain mail were three of the four R1b found there. The rest were not so equipped.

My German is pretty rusty (I can read it fairly well, though), and, honestly, this computer at work has pretty low volume, so hearing what Dr. Vigl said is difficult. But didn't I hear him say something about G2a4 being found on Sardinia?

What puzzles me is why Ötzi was killed.

I hope some more testable male remains are recovered in Northern Italy. It would be nice to know if U152 was already there at that time, about 3,000 years ago, or not.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't some older stuff out there waiting to be found (or waiting for test results).

Correct. It is interesting that the finds for Hg G are starting to cluster around the Neolithic to Copper age (LBK, Treilles, and maybe Otzi/Remedello). Although one of the Ergolding Merovingians was G which is an outlier to this emerging pattern or even a migration period descendant. R1b is showing up Bronze age and later, which is also in line with the STR variance based calculations.

Maybe there is value in the molecular clock concept and STR variance after all.

Although we have no scientific sampling of ancient Y DNA, at least for Hg G we have a bit of pattern developing.

Quote from: Dienekes

Ötzi, the Tyrolean Iceman belonged to Y-haplogroup G2a4.We now have G2a3 from Neolithic Linearbandkeramik in Derenburg and G2a in Treilles in addition to Ötzi from the Alps. G2a folk got around.

For R1b this may be not be satisfying for a while. The answer to RMS's question "Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe?" is NO but lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think the key when we find ancient R1b is not that it is R1b but what subclade. There is a big difference between finding R-L23* and R-P312 or R-M222.

I was watching a program on genetic 'The Differance@ channel 4 uk. there was a section on red hair as you know you have to have the gene on both sides of the family to have red hair .then it got intresting this gene is said to heve a link to skin cancer even if you only have it on one side of the family (hence not have red hair) the risk is increased (apperantly you have a differant kind of melolin). Heres the bit that got my attention. In hot climates there is also a decrease in reproduction. I guess that meant people dying younger and having less children. What I was wondering is if R1b has it's origins amongst the people carrying that gene in ancient times in S.W asia would it not have been a a lower than expected level butb when it reached colder climate increased expotetially?

Of course, I just used "R1b" as a kind of shorthand to avoid having to write long, torturous sentences involving all the different possible clades. I meant something further up the tree from the root than actual M343.

I was watching a program on genetic 'The Differance@ channel 4 uk. there was a section on red hair as you know you have to have the gene on both sides of the family to have red hair .then it got intresting this gene is said to heve a link to skin cancer even if you only have it on one side of the family (hence not have red hair) the risk is increased (apperantly you have a differant kind of melolin). Heres the bit that got my attention. In hot climates there is also a decrease in reproduction. I guess that meant people dying younger and having less children. What I was wondering is if R1b has it's origins amongst the people carrying that gene in ancient times in S.W asia would it not have been a a lower than expected level butb when it reached colder climate increased expotetially?

I find it funny the way people try to attribute red heads to a particular historical group. The reality is you have entire populations carrying the marker at a certain percentage and a red head is when two people with the marker breed. It seems that a much higher percentage (have heard 30-40% in Scotland, Ireland etc) have the marker than the red hair (more like 10%). I suppose if one in three men and one in three women have the marker then it would come out like that. Anyway, having one copy seems to be very common in some areas.

I suspect that the common Irish look of very fair redhead-like pale or freckled skin but with brown hair may be a common outcome of carrying just one marker.

The Irish and British are well known on continental holidays for being burned to a crisp by the sun and incapable of tanning while the Germans, Scandinavians etc seem to be able to tan well

I must carry the gene for red hair, even though my own hair is not red, because my youngest daughter has red hair. Also two of my grandsons, sons of my youngest son, have red hair. One of my dad's older sisters had red hair.

I sunburn easily and have had my share of really bad burns throughout the years.

Well, that was a good guess. I guessed I2 just because I know it's currently found in Italy and I didn't think Ötzi would be R1b.

When I first got into dna testing, it looked like ancient y-dna was beyond our reach. We thought it lucky when researchers could recover some mtDNA now and then. Now it looks like we might actually start to get some answers.

Otzi's full genome was sequenced, which should give us a good map of his SNP. Does anyone know if his STRs were analysed.

One source of ancient DNA which remains untapped and is usually in a good state of preservation and associated with some form of documentation is relics.Last year, I visited the Cathedral of Aachen to view the tomb of Charlemange. His giant skeleton is preserved in a golden casket and exhibited on rare occasions.

"The physical portrait provided by Einhard is confirmed by contemporary depictions of the emperor, such as coins and his 8-inch (20 cm) bronze statue kept in the Louvre. In 1861, Charlemagne's tomb was opened by scientists who reconstructed his skeleton and estimated it to be measured 74.9 inches (190 centimeters).[12] A modern study based on the dimensions of his tibia estimated his height as 1.84 m. This puts him in the 99th percentile of tall people of his period, given that average male height of his time was 1.69 m."

Europe's cathedrals and churches are full of relics of saints or kings whose lives are reasonably well documented.

Otzi is thought most likely to be from the early Remedello culture which has been suggested as some sort of missing link between the Indo-European east and the later beaker west. One sample tells you very little but it was a culture that was thought as a possible R1b one.

Otzi is thought most likely to be from the early Remedello culture which has been suggested as some sort of missing link between the Indo-European east and the later beaker west. One sample tells you very little but it was a culture that was thought as a possible R1b one.

Yeah, you never know. He could have been the one, lone G2a4 needle in the big, otherwise R1b haystack. That is one of the problems with ancient dna. A lot is read into a single result.

But it is odd that R1b hasn't turned up yet, except for that one from the Lichtenstein Cave circa 1,000 BC.