That's some scary stuff right there.
I've been a witness to real "police brutality" on more then one occasion and recently our local county sheriff went to prison for "witness tampering" among other charges.
Notice how many of them are fat boys?

That's some scary stuff right there.
I've been a witness to real "police brutality" on more then one occasion and recently our local county sheriff went to prison for "witness tampering" among other charges.
Notice how many of them are fat boys?

The "Police State" is here. This video leaves no doubt. We are the enemy.

S/V Laura Ellen

08-22-2009, 06:37 PM

The "Police State" is here. This video leaves no doubt. We are the enemy.

Oh Yaa .... It's really him!
:eek:

Captain Blight

08-22-2009, 07:46 PM

Effin' pigs.

Tylerdurden

08-22-2009, 07:51 PM

Oh Yaa .... It's really him!
:eek:

Yep, Its me.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/mudhutwarrior/3_2_1_03dd0.jpg

Ian McColgin

08-22-2009, 07:53 PM

There are law enforcement agencies in this nation that have moved beyond the law but we are a world away from a police state, as any of our members who've lived in one, been arrested in one, or even spent time in one will instantly say. The lawless police are mostly a minority, albeit sometimes a powerful minority, in forces that lack capeable leadership. Where they are the norm - think of Rizzo's Philadelphia mob - it's highly focused, usually racist, and subject to eventual citizen initiated reform.

The problem is not that some will abuse power. That's to be expected. The problem is the weak willed who think that somehow it will never happen, that they don't need to deal with it daily, that someone else will take care of it, and that if it happens there's nothing they can do. That attitude is for anti-democratic anti-American wimps. Of course it's a struggle. That's the name of our game.

Reform is never over.

Phillip Allen

08-22-2009, 08:05 PM

I'd like to see a new waw protecting people with cameras...make police interfearence a felony

bobbys

08-22-2009, 08:07 PM

After getting some bad hamburgers i felt like beating people to:)

Tylerdurden

08-22-2009, 08:07 PM

There are law enforcement agencies in this nation that have moved beyond the law but we are a world away from a police state, as any of our members who've lived in one, been arrested in one, or even spent time in one will instantly say.

Funny, I have and see the subtle likeness. Think East Germany.

Follow this link....http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/mom_in_minivan_tasered_in_traf.html

Of course the article of a mom tasered in front of her children for a cell phone violation is catchy but go down to the comments section.
In fact if you would like I will post several more abuse and corruption articles for you and you can read the comments there too.
Its nation wide how we feel about the PoPo and there is a consensus.
The only difference between here and East Germany is we are not afraid to voice our opinions "Yet".

Beyond that maybe you should watch the video of ex cops going under cover in police stations nationwide and asking for a complaint form. There are over a dozen separate examples in the video.
Harassment to arrest are the norm for asking for a form.
If you continue with the same riff afterward I will make sure to send cash for more Klonipin.

Ian McColgin

08-22-2009, 10:11 PM

Mark is right that examples of moral corruption in police agencies are rife. A few points:

Abuse of power happens where there is power. That's why we have a citizenary that at least used to be trained to oppose it. It does not just go away because Cornwallis surrendered.

The examples are mostly local (with some local but federal agency exceptions) and are really the matter of the local citizens to deal with or suffer through, their call.

I certainly agree that tasers make it all too easy for coersive authorities to use supposedly sub-deadly force rather than their brains. I reallyy hate the over-glamorization and over-use of SWAT, but they should probably alone have tasers. Just a partially thought out thought.

Main thing: We are offended at police abuse. So long as we keep that and so long as the news is free to report it, there is hope.

The Bigfella

08-22-2009, 11:19 PM

Gee guys, what is it in your society that creates all this fear? I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me. Have a think about it. What is it?

Jim Bow

08-22-2009, 11:47 PM

A friend of mine was pulled from a burning car when he was 13 years old. This was in the early 70s. The person who pulled him out was a Seattle cop.
The cop thought there was another child in the car, based on the hysteria of my friends mom. He went back to the car, and his torso was inside the driver's door when the car blew up. It was 6 months before he was able to go back to work.
There is no video.

BrianW

08-23-2009, 12:04 AM

Gee guys, what is it in your society that creates all this fear? I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me. Have a think about it. What is it?

We know, we know... small penis syndrome.

L.W. Baxter

08-23-2009, 12:15 AM

Police corruption and misconduct is not the same as a police state.

A police state does not arise merely from individual or groups of police officers aberrantly operating outside the law. It arises when entire police forces are dominated and subverted to the will of a ruler or ruling party, regardless of law or due process. When the police are afraid of authority, then you have a police state.

I would say, currently, that we are eons away from Barack Obama (or his puppeteers?) bending the police forces of this country to do his bidding. Maybe if he buys another round of drinks?

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 06:04 AM

Police corruption and misconduct is not the same as a police state.

A police state does not arise merely from individual or groups of police officers aberrantly operating outside the law. It arises when entire police forces are dominated and subverted to the will of a ruler or ruling party, regardless of law or due process. When the police are afraid of authority, then you have a police state.

I would say, currently, that we are eons away from Barack Obama (or his puppeteers?) bending the police forces of this country to do his bidding. Maybe if he buys another round of drinks?

False thinking. One must take the totality of events to understand the gates are closing in and we are in the throes of a Police state.
Politics have nothing to do with it as there is no red or blue in what has been happening.

"Starting this year, Americans will have to get government approval to travel by air. As Privacy Journal revealed last fall, henceforth "Permission Now Needed to Travel Within U.S." Getting a reservation and checking-in for air travel will soon require Transportation Security Administration authorization. That permission is by no means assured: For example, if your name matches a "no-fly" list, even mistakenly, you can be denied the right to a reserve a seat on a flight. If your name is on a "selectee" list, you and your possessions will be searched more thoroughly before you can board. What is going on here? "
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=166

Papers Please? You must have your papers to proceed.=
Failure to provide ID on demand is now a crime in the US.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:13 AM

Given the number of nut cases emerging, that might be the way to go.

Phillip Allen

08-23-2009, 09:22 AM

Given the number of nut cases emerging, that might be the way to go.

one in 41 nut cases (men only) will go un noticed...

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 09:23 AM

Stan has the answer Ian.

L.W. Baxter

08-23-2009, 03:44 PM

False thinking. One must take the totality of events to understand the gates are closing in and we are in the throes of a Police state.
Politics have nothing to do with it as there is no red or blue in what has been happening...

...Papers Please? You must have your papers to proceed.=
Failure to provide ID on demand is now a crime in the US.

I agree that the ID on demand, list keeping, and integrated surveillance and data bases of U.S. citizens is excessive and worrisome. I don't like it either, so I guess we are in agreement. But what does the video you originally linked to have to do with those issues? Is it footage of people having to produce ID or being turned away at the airport? Or is it video of police officers abusing and exceeding their lawful powers?

The legal framework that gives law enforcement excessive power (subjectively perceived) is not the same as cops gone wild (and objectively breaking the law). We have to seperate the two very different problems in order to have a coherent discussion.

Phillip Allen

08-23-2009, 04:23 PM

I agree that the ID on demand, list keeping, and integrated surveillance and data bases of U.S. citizens is excessive and worrisome. I don't like it either, so I guess we are in agreement. But what does the video you originally linked to have to do with those issues? Is it footage of people having to produce ID or being turned away at the airport? Or is it video of police officers abusing and exceeding their lawful powers?

The legal framework that gives law enforcement excessive power (subjectively perceived) is not the same as cops gone wild (and objectively breaking the law). We have to seperate the two very different problems in order to have a coherent discussion.

so, lets seperate them and start

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 05:31 PM

The legal framework that gives law enforcement excessive power (subjectively perceived) is not the same as cops gone wild (and objectively breaking the law). We have to seperate the two very different problems in order to have a coherent discussion.

One cannot separate as all these trends collide with the outcome being bad for us. The behaviors of the police and their culture of corruption "The thin blue line" Play into the police state we are now witnessing. Illegal behavior is tolerated excused and covered up for a reason. "Go along to get along" A trend here practiced and preached by many here. We incrementally accept more and more as we become numb to what surrounds us daily. Our masters are aware of this and use it to their advantage just as the National Socialists did in their day. We are taught to break down everything into little pieces and analyze the data like rats in a maze and the outcome is we never see the overall trend and direction we are heading in. All that is occurring right now has to be seen collectively to understand what the outcome will be.
Our police departments were never good but they did serve without the total disrespect individuals are treated as now. This did not happen by accident just like all the other events which lead us down the path to hell. They had to be taught to go this way just as they have to be taught to perform within the law. Their lawlessness is another of a million symptoms. Cops did not suddenly see us all as the enemy. They were taught to. Just as they were taught the thin blue line.
I say many things to point this out. Follow the money, look who is behind these foundations, think tanks and groups like the CFR and their kind. See where their actions and words lead. Read what they write and understand there is a plan and one can clearly see the trends over the past decades. With a little research one can see our police were not militarized by accident. A wake up call to anyone brave enough to go down that path.
None of this has happened by accident.

BETTY-B

08-23-2009, 05:46 PM

"Go along to get along" A trend here practiced and preached by many here. We incrementally accept more and more as we become numb to what surrounds us daily. We are taught to break down everything into little pieces and analyze the data like rats in a maze and the outcome is we never see the overall trend and direction we are heading in.

This is so damn true. Sometimes things are so far analyzed that they come full circle and everyone thinks they are on the same page. When in fact, everyone is looking at a different forest.

DAN

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 05:47 PM

Mark, you sound exactly like a John Birch fanatic medical doctor friend of mine back in 1959.
Back then it was the pinko commies we needed to be afraid of, according to him.
Excuse us while we refuse to be be afraid, despite your incessant hateful fear-mongering.
Why don't you get some rest and let the world turn as it may?
All the rest of us are not as damn dumb as you seem to want to believe.
We don't need your constant poking. Save yourself and leave the rest of us the hell alone, please.

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 05:53 PM

This is so damn true. Sometimes things are so far analyzed that they come full circle and everyone thinks they are on the same page. When in fact, everyone is looking at a different forest.

DAN

The forest Mark is looking at is full of heinous boogers of every description behind every tree and under every rock.
Are you blind? Wake up, Sheeple!
If Mark hollers "booger", you better jump and run or you'll become a metrosexual before you can say pantyhose and pink shoes!:rolleyes:

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 05:54 PM

Mark, you sound exactly like a John Birch fanatic medical doctor friend of mine back in 1959.
Back then it was the pinko commies we needed to be afraid of, according to him.
Excuse us while we refuse to be be afraid, despite your incessant hateful fear-mongering.
Why don't you get some rest and let the world turn as it may?
All the rest of us are not as damn dumb as you seem to want to believe.
We don't need your constant poking. Save yourself and leave the rest of us the hell alone, please.

I am an itch you cannot scratch. And some day I will tell your children to blame you for what your let the world turn as it may has brought them. Mark my words it will happen. I just hope they can find forgiveness in their hearts for your blindness.
Forgive but never forget.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 05:54 PM

Well, it pains me to have to tell you this Mark, but you are wrong.

Whether past experience makes you bitter and twisted is a matter that others can judge - and maybe you can comment on - but when it comes to policing, I've had experience on both sides of the fence. I've been victimized by police and I've developed strategy with and for them.... living with them for a year to do it.

I watched a few sections of that video, and yeah, I saw some rotten eggs - both on the citizen side and the police side. Life's like that - and that's what makes policing such an interesting service area. Police have to deal with all elements of society - more often than not, in a sympathetic role to the victims of crime. The percentage of time spent by police in dealing with actual crims is in single digits.

How about you provide us with some insight.... What percentage of the "victims" in that video would you want as a neighbour. What percentage do you think are positive contributors to society, rather than takers?

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 05:55 PM

The forest Mark is looking at is full of heinous boogers of every description behind every tree and under every rock.
Are you blind? Wake up, Sheeple!
If Mark hollers "booger", you better jump and run or you'll become a metrosexual before you can say pantyhose and pink shoes!:rolleyes:

The forest I see is occupied by a few men and a great plan.
I seek to decapitate both.

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 05:57 PM

Well, it pains me to have to tell you this Mark, but you are wrong.

Whether past experience makes you bitter and twisted is a matter that others can judge - and maybe you can comment on - but when it comes to policing, I've had experience on both sides of the fence. I've been victimized by police and I've developed strategy with and for them.... living with them for a year to do it.

I watched a few sections of that video, and yeah, I saw some rotten eggs - both on the citizen side and the police side. Life's like that - and that's what makes policing such an interesting service area. Police have to deal with all elements of society - more often than not, in a sympathetic role to the victims of crime. The percentage of time spent by police in dealing with actual crims is in single digits.

How about you provide us with some insight.... What percentage of the "victims" in that video would you want as a neighbour. What percentage do you think are positive contributors to society, rather than takers?

Go away Master of Business Apocalypse.

Society creates the majority of criminals and we do nothing to turn the tide. There will always be the criminal, the sociopath. its how we approach it that matters.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:00 PM

The forest I see is occupied by a few men and a great plan.
I seek to decapitate both.

Still threatening people eh?

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 06:00 PM

The forest I see is occupied by a few men and a great plan.
I seek to decapitate both.

Careful you don't lose your own head (mind) in the process, if it's not already too late.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:03 PM

Go away Master of Business Apocalypse.

Society creates the majority of criminals and we do nothing to turn the tide. There will always be the criminal, the sociopath. its how we approach it that matters.

Actually, the question of whether they are born that way or conditioned that way is unresolved.

Were you conditioned to knock out a teacher and put him in hospital, or was it an innate response? What did the psychiatrist say?

L.W. Baxter

08-23-2009, 06:04 PM

That's a compelling narrative Tyler, but I could tell another one.

The story I would tell would be of an ever larger and aging bureaucratic system. Continual growth of population and diversity, increasing demands for a fully rationalized system of justice with emphasis on victims rights and compensation, the rational reaction being layer upon layer of law and regulation, encroaching ever farther into our mundane lives, with a growing inflexibility the result. Add the exponential growth of surveillance and data technology and the awesome power of computerized collation, and what emerges is a system that favors analysis over interaction, numbers and statistics over common sense and the common touch.

It's not a conspiracy. No one is pulling the strings, because no one can. It's just a bunch of stuff that is happening, and it is our job to muddle through it and reconcile our often antithetical demands of freedom and security. It has always been thus.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:07 PM

Careful you don't lose your own head (mind) in the process, if it's not already too late.

Glen, you may have missed this old post by Mark... I'll snip the bits he wrote about his mother - happy to put them back in if he asks me to for the sake of completeness. It helps understand where he's coming from.

Alright here goes, I saw a shrink once when I was a kid. Seems my one of my teachers .... snip....

He woke up in the hospital. The principal actually understood my reasons and suspended me for three days and transferred me out of the class but the teacher bitched and I had to go to counseling. I got assigned to the head shrink and had to see him once a week for the rest of the year. After many sessions he invited me home for dinner. Tells me over dinner that they were into divine decadence , Yeah whatever. Come to find out he wanted to watch me screw his wife. She was hot so I did (many) times but I also lost complete respect for the profession. Its all about control as this jerk off could have recommended I go to the youth offender program.

I am sure there are good ones but most I have met have big issues themselves.

... and there we have it. It is exactly what Mark is arguing.. that society creates these problems.

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 06:13 PM

Glen, you may have missed this old post by Mark... I'll snip the bits he wrote about his mother - happy to put them back in if he asks me to for the sake of completeness. It helps understand where he's coming from.

... and there we have it. It is exactly what Mark is arguing.. that society creates these problems.

Thanks, I read that post of Mark's back then and realized why he has such a deep-seated anger.
He needs to find a new modern shrink and resume his recovery, rather than telling us what's wrong with us, IMO.

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 06:17 PM

You clowns keep going and Ian can keep doing his level best to smear in absence of argument. Time will show who knew the score.

Go along to get along
Go along to get along
Go along to get along..

I tried that mantra, It made me puke.

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 06:23 PM

I don't get it.

All I saw was a collection of videos, mostly of 'police behaving badly', i.e., certainly not following procedure, and in some cases, certainly criminal in thier behavior. In most of the cases, we don't learn of the outcomes... which episodes resulted in disciplinary action against the cop, or even criminal indictments.

So, what am I supposed to conclude here?

I can watch 'Cops' on TV, and see examples of police behaving properly... in fact, there are over 500 'Cops' episodes, so that means there are from 2000 to 2500 video examples of proper police procedure.

Are we all supposed to conclude that ALL police are thugs? Wouldn't it be more ligical to conclude that SOME are... with an unknown percentage?

You apparently did not watch it as a large portion was ex-police officers going into the station to ask for complaint forms.
Its a must see and anyone who does would not be defending right now unless they are of the goosestepping ilk.

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 06:29 PM

"the goosestepping ilk."

Don't you see, you're the goosestepper?:)

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:30 PM

Curious, BigFella (ROFL!) Have you saved a folder of Mark's nonsense on your PC, or saved links to them?

If so, to what end?

Donn - whilst Mark has deleted many of his threads, the search function will bring up many of his classics with just a couple of seconds of finger work.

No, I don't have a folder of his nonsense... but when I saw his consistent pattern of abuse of other forumites... and subsequent re-writing of his history, I did save a couple of his quotes into a Word document. Its like his current Armageddon thread... it's just a repeat of last year's with a bit more vitriole added in. The world's financial system was going to collapse by the end of summer 2008 - remember? (note - it wasn't about a recession, it was about anarchy). Oh yeah - the army was being mobilised so that George Bush could hang on to power too.

To what end? Mild amusement. Why else would anyone ever bother reading or responding to one of his threads?

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 06:33 PM

You clowns keep going and Ian can keep doing his level best to smear in absence of argument. Time will show who knew the score.

Go along to get along
Go along to get along
Go along to get along..

I tried that mantra, It made me puke.

Actually Mark, if you go back to post #28, you will find I did put forward an "argument". Care to address it, or aren't you capable?

Tylerdurden

08-23-2009, 06:36 PM

Donn - whilst Mark has deleted many of his threads, the search function will bring up many of his classics with just a couple of seconds of finger work.

No, I don't have a folder of his nonsense... but when I saw his consistent pattern of abuse of other forumites... and subsequent re-writing of his history, I did save a couple of his quotes into a Word document. Its like his current Armageddon thread... it's just a repeat of last year's with a bit more vitriole added in. The world's financial system was going to collapse by the end of summer 2008 - remember? (note - it wasn't about a recession, it was about anarchy). Oh yeah - the army was being mobilised so that George Bush could hang on to power too.

To what end? Mild amusement. Why else would anyone ever bother reading or responding to one of his threads?

Outright lies, I have never deleted any past threads except a few active ones. Scot has the honor of that.

"To what end? Mild amusement. Why else would anyone ever bother reading or responding to one of his threads?"

Above is absolute proof Ian is an Idiot.:D

Glen Longino

08-23-2009, 06:43 PM

Aw hell, sorry Ian, you're an Idiot! :D

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 07:10 PM

Should I shoot myself now, or just keep pissing myself laughing at he with the shrinking measure?

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 07:11 PM

That's a constant source of curiosity for me. He's obviously a pshort psychotic...kind of a maladjusted dwarf.

I don't save his stuff, and can't be bothered to spend any time to search it out, but I do remember one of his predictions, either last fall or the one before, about the US$ crashing before Christmas.

I bet against his advice, and won. Wot a surprise!

I actually gave him some investment advice. I just checked my year on year portfolio performance. Currently 245.2% of what it was last August. He just won't listen though.

skuthorp

08-23-2009, 07:14 PM

Leave it alone Ian, leave it alone, in this context Tyler is harmless, sometimes interesting, sometimes even a bit right. He knows his boats too. Leave it alone.

The Bigfella

08-23-2009, 07:22 PM

G'day Jeff - you're up a bit early after a late night aren't you?

Speaking of boats, I've got to go pick up the Lucas SR1 magneto I bought on fleabay last night. Can't have too many spare maggies eh?

B_B

08-24-2009, 02:00 PM

Gee guys, what is it in your society that creates all this fear? I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me. Have a think about it. What is it?
no bad coppers in Oz?

Phillip Allen

08-24-2009, 02:50 PM

no bad coppers in Oz?

none at all...just ask stevebaby...

The Bigfella

08-24-2009, 05:48 PM

Yeah - we've got bad coppers.... but we don't have the fear that surrounds policing in the US. We have some pretty reasonable cleanouts - based on some sound principles and precedents, which tends to keep things in order.

Queensland and NSW got a bit out of order 20 years or so back, but a couple of Royal Commissions and a few cops in gaol and a lot more sacked, with the establishment of the Police Integrity Commission seems to be working.

As I said - I've seen the bad side of it too. I've been booked for something I didn't do and had to cop it sweet...

Phillip Allen

08-24-2009, 05:51 PM

Yeah - we've got bad coppers.... but we don't have the fear that surrounds policing in the US. We have some pretty reasonable cleanouts - based on some sound principles and precedents, which tends to keep things in order.

Queensland and NSW got a bit out of order 20 years or so back, but a couple of Royal Commissions and a few cops in gaol and a lot more sacked, with the establishment of the Police Integrity Commission seems to be working.

As I said - I've seen the bad side of it too. I've been booked for something I didn't do and had to cop it sweet...

we could probably use some of your cure here...

The Bigfella

08-24-2009, 06:08 PM

When my work with the police was published in late '96, a very senior copper said "you could spend the rest of your life consulting to police forces around the world".... I decided not to - although there's still the occasional thought of a book.

B_B

08-24-2009, 07:15 PM

we're just now (almost) realizing that having the police investigating themselves (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/08/11/bc-rcmp-internal-investigation-report.html) for wrongdoing isn't a great idea...

The Bigfella

08-24-2009, 08:15 PM

Yep - I had an argument with a Deputy Commissioner about that back in 96 - his line was that police are the best investigators, mine was that the public won't ever trust the investigation to be impartial.

Phillip Allen

08-24-2009, 08:17 PM

Yep - I had an argument with a Deputy Commissioner about that back in 96 - his line was that police are the best investigators, mine was that the public won't ever trust the investigation to be impartial.