Terry Zwigoff sounds exactly how you want him to sound. The director who gave us the outcasts, freaks, weirdos, and geniuses of Ghost World, Crumb, and Bad Santa has a flat, Midwestern accent, peppering his speech with little chuckles like he’s about to let you in on some great joke.

There are also a lot of self-effacing sighs, as you might expect from a great talent whose work tends to rail against hypocrites and phonies—and who has been unable to get a new movie off the ground since 2006’s Art School Confidential. (He had zero to do with the recent Bad Santa 2.) Or maybe his audible stress was the result of the plumber tooling around his San Francisco home when we spoke on the phone, inspiring the occasional, “What’s happening out the window here?”

The reason for our call was twofold. Firstly, New York cinephiles can rejoice from May 19 through May 21, when the gorgeous (and, most would agree, the country’s best) art theater the Metrograph hosts a rare retrospective of his work. Zwigoff will be in attendance, as will many special guests. If you’ve never seen his hour-long first feature, Louie Bluie from 1985 (which Zwigoff kinda fell into, kicking off a film career in his mid-30s), for God’s sake wait to see it projected at this remarkable facility.

The second reason was to celebrate Zwigoff’s first project to make it into the wild in years, an Amazon series based on T.C. Boyle’s cult novel Budding Prospects, starring Adam Rose, Will Sasso, and Natalie Morales.

Below is an edited transcript of our conversation.

VF.com: I really dug the pilot of Budding Prospects, and I hope the show continues.

Terry Zwigoff: I’ve learned to expect the worst.

The whole “battle royale” aspect of Amazon’s pilot season, where people vote to see what continues, does seems a little odd.

My films never test well. This tested well, though, much to my surprise. Maybe that’ll turn out to be a problem? The biggest disappointment would be that it’s a fun show to make. I get to stay home. I picked most locations a mile from my house so I come home for lunch, sleep in my own bed.

It would be a bummer for me, as a fan, since it’s your first thing since Art School Confidential in 2006.

It’s been very difficult for all filmmakers trying to make small- or medium-budget movies. It started in 2007—the housing bubble, the subprime mortgage crisis. The Hollywood business model shifted. They weren’t interested in making a modest amount of money, like $10 million. They wanted to make a billion.

So you can shoot your movie on your iPhone, or you can be one of the 10 guys making a Marvel film. I don’t have any interest in that, nor would I know how to do it. But what have I been doing? Am I pacing the house? Waiting for the mail? I’ve taken on whatever writing or development jobs I can that allow me to stay in San Francisco.

For instance, I was contacted by Johnny Depp, who was interested in adapting a book called Happy Life. It was about a guy who visits an old folks’ home and falls in love with an older woman. I saw it as an opportunity to write for Jeanne Moreau. I worked on it with Jerry Stahl. We met in L.A. at Depp’s suggestion, and we both were like, “I don’t know about this—but gee, it’s a lot of money, okay."

There was another project called The $40,000 Man all set up at New Line, and then [sighs] they had a regime change once I turned my script in. Then I had a deal to adapt a book by Elmore Leonard. I was sent it by his granddaughter. This was around 2010; the book was called Maximum Bob.

Oh, I remember that TV show.

Yeah. That’s what killed it. We had the deal, we had financing, we started adapting. Then we get a call: “Hang on, we just found out there was a short-lived TV show, and we can’t separate the rights.” [Laughs.]

Then there was something called Edward Ford [written by Lem Dobbs], something of a legendary script. It had the reputation of being the greatest script ever, which I don’t quite agree with, but I liked it very much. We had Michael Shannon attached to play the lead, then the money fell through.

But it was such an uncommercial script, I sorta attached myself to it knowing it would never be made. But I attached myself to Bad Santa the same way. I got sent that script by my agent saying, “I’m sending you this knowing it will never be made.”

That recent Bad Santa sequel, you didn’t see a dime out of it, right?

Actually, I got a call from some lawyer who said, “You are entitled to some sequel money.” I said, “Oh, great! How much?” And then they said, “Uh, actually, it just expired.” [Laughs.]

But I was dying to see it, because I love Tony Cox. I’ve been in touch with him since the original. I talk to him every month. I was hoping it would be good, but I could tell from that trailer it was not going to be good. It was beyond-my-wildest-dreams awful.

I remember after Ghost World in 2001, there was some story about the Gap wanting you to make a television commercial about yourself.

It wasn’t a commercial, it was a billboard. They were doing a series of ads, of “young, hip filmmakers.” I think they asked Todd Solondz and Spike Jonze. Odd people to have on a billboard. Well, maybe not Spike Jonze; he’s a handsome guy.

I said I wasn’t interested. I hate having my picture taken, and to be on a billboard—I can’t imagine anything more embarrassing. Plus, I spent a long time on Ghost World trying to have some social and cultural critique of contrived consumerism. They wanted me to be the poster boy of the opposite.

The casting of Ghost World is really extraordinary.

I didn’t find out until after I hired her that Scarlett Johansson was only 15 years old. Which means you can only work her half as much as an adult, making shooting difficult.

How old was Thora Birch?

She just turned 18, so that wasn’t a problem.

Credit: From Everett Collection.

At those ages, a three-year difference can be a huge rift.

They got along really well. Instant friendship. Of course, Scarlett at age 15 had the poise of someone much older.

I felt that both of them could have huge careers, either as movie stars or character actresses. I was rather surprised that Thora didn’t do much after that, but I always thought Scarlett was a unique, eccentric person, and right for that part. She auditioned via tape from New York, and didn’t seem like a bratty little kid auditioning in Beverly Hills for a TV show.

The girls were a little amused at how I was out of step with the times. But my interest was telling this story in a slightly exaggerated, nightmarish, almost film-noir version of the world. A social and critical satire depicting America’s fabric woven from falsehoods and lies, hypocrisies and scams. It just seems to be what happens in a capitalist society. There’s politicians and TV evangelists and corporations, and none of them have the best interest of the average citizen.

But it’s still a sweet movie at times. I mean, you’ve got a scene where Steve Buscemi sees a family crossing the road and barks, “Have another kid, why don’t you?!” Yet he’s still the good guy.

That was all Steve Buscemi. I had enough sense to cast him. It’s touchy. He’s such a misanthrope and complaining all the time, plus he’s involved with a teenage girl. Had I cast somebody like Bruce Willis who’s some sort of manly rock-jock movie star, I don’t think that would have worked at all, no matter what the performance was like.

In the documentary Crumb, there are a number of scenes where your principal subject hears about the sex crimes his brother committed and he kinda just gives a nervous chuckle.

He laughs nervously oftentimes, yeah. There were a lot of people who interpreted that reaction to be, let’s say, less than sensitive. I know him enough to know that it’s more laughing to keep from crying.

I re-watched Crumb for the first time in a long time. And I still think it is a masterpiece. But I gotta tell you something: I found myself depressed for something like two days afterwards.

A lot of people react that way. People think it’s a very depressing film, but I found it very entertaining and funny. I don’t know, I was in psychotherapy at the time.

Do people sometimes confuse your point of view with Crumb’s?

Yeah, or just the films in general. I have two characters in two films that knock Picasso. One is in Louie Bluie, and the other is Jim Broadbent in Art School Confidential. I love Picasso. You can’t be as simplistic in analyzing a film.

Crumb has few rivals in dismissing modern culture. He left the damn country! Do you keep abreast of what’s new?

I wouldn’t say I listen to new albums by whoever is popular, but I try to find things I like here and there. Better Call Saul is pretty great. I get screeners at the end of the year as an Academy member, and think, “oh wow, all these movies to watch.” Usually there’s two I like. Last year, there was Manchester by the Sea and maybe another one.

Moonlight?

Nah.

I suspect you are a fan of the Coen brothers.[Note: This remark was made off-the-cuff, forgetting that Zwigoff and the Coens have had some reported beef.]

One thing I beg you to keep in this interview that everybody cuts out is that I think they are the greatest writers and directors alive today, and they were very, very nice to me. All that ever gets printed is that we had a disagreement over casting. That gets played up as “he hates the Coen brothers!” I generally like their stuff. Gee, now of course I have to get nitpicky. I like their dramas more than their comedies, put it that way.

This retrospective will be great for younger people who grew up on Ghost World but didn’t see it in a theater. You must hear a lot from women who say this movie was pivotal for them.

I do. I hear it a lot. Late 30s. Even a little older. Usually in Enid-type glasses.

The glasses are key! The scene in the bar where she changes her glasses without provocation.

She’s changing her look. It doesn’t move the plot along, but I always have the more relaxed approach. Maybe that’s why my show hasn’t been picked up yet. I spent the whole pilot setting up the characters, not advancing the plot.

Maybe you’ll meet a fan who says that movie opened their eyes to our crass society.

I should be so lucky. If I’ve ruined just one person’s life, my mission has succeeded.