theravada is getting more and more popular, this is one of (the only?) and possibly the most popular theravada forum on the web. so this forum is going to be part of the process of people for forming some opinions on theravada and it's practitioners as a whole, even if this is not fair or valid, it's how a lot of people work. they discover something "ooh, theravada" and maybe find a forum, if they have a great experience then they think theravada is good and dig deeper, if they like it and learn about it a lot, then they truly know about it and the rest is beyond us. however if they have a bad experience early on before really learning about the tradition much then they will lump everything together and decide that theravada and people that practice it are not something they like. again, this is illogical but many people work like this!

anyway, i've had no problems with people on here, but i've seen many arguments and debates where people are clearly getting worked up. i've also seen a lot of people join who seem to get ripped up by old heads when they have a differing opinion or are simply incorrect on a topic or statement, then they seem to disappear shortly thereafter. now the old heads probably don't even realize this is a problem, heck i may even be part of this problem from time to time and not know it (i'm not an old head on here, but i'm used to friendly debate and fact checking)! we get caught up in factual debates, proving each other wrong and so on, which is great and usually fun if you're used to it, but for someone just looking for some light reading or even friendly chatting it can be hurtful and crushing, especially when they are new to the forum.

the overall feel is that there are a lot of users on here who are blunt and poignant in speech and seem to either not know that this offends many, or too simply think that everyone should just be more like them and the others they talk with who are not offended by this kind of attitude. this is because there is a large amount of users who are like this and they all have a grand old time talking to each other like this, again, i'm probably one of them sometimes, so this applies too me just as much as anyone else.

so basically if you've been on here for a long time and know a ton about buddhism, handle newbies with kid gloves when setting them straight on the facts. lots of please and thank you, very little sarcasm (tough to be certain!) and plenty of condolences if they seem hurt by the smack down of knowledge. the knowledge must be shared, that's why we're here, but it could be done with a little more kindness and gentleness.

that's it, below are some fictional examples for fun (the "links" are just pretend to make the examples look more realistic ):

newbie: "i here buddha say: 'i am god!' this tru. what do u say?"

old head # 1: "the buddha never said any such thing. the very idea is preposterous, check your facts, here are five sutta examples where he says otherwise."

old head # 3 is next: "source? sutta quote? page number? author? be careful about believing everything you here!"

newbie:

if this thread was started by an old head they should darn well expect these responses! but for a newbie it comes off as arrogant and cold hearted.

it could go more like this:

newbie: "i here buddha say: 'i am god!' this tru. what do u say?"

old head # 1: "i've heard things like this before as well, however to my knowledge the buddha never said any such thing. here are five sutta examples where he says otherwise. although it could have come from a little known mahayana sutra or some really late mahayana/vajrayana non canonical text written by an individual or something, but it's not likely a theravada idea. cheers!"

old head # 2 jumps in right after: (this probably is what i should have said) "these kinds of ideas usually come from other religions, originally they were certainly not in buddhism as far as we know from the texts we have today. however they may fit with buddhism for certain people where buddhism developed differently and created different offshoots such as nicheren buddhism or pure land. check http://www.buddhistwebsite/buddhaisnotagod for more on the theravada view of this, and http://www.purelandwebsite/buddhaisreallysimilartoagod for more on a school that does teach things like this."

old head # 3 is next: "interesting. i've never heard such a thing, i would guess it's just a random thing. do you know what book this quote comes from?"

obviously this does not apply to abrasive and argumentative newbs, that's a whole different story.

overall, we just need to be more kind when it comes to setting people straight.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

What I'd suggest is to "be the change you want to see in the world"... give the responses you feel are appropriate, and they may well resonate with others, or they may not.

Everyone is different, and everyone has different proclivities and expectations they lay upon the shoulders of others.

People will explain things according to their own understanding, and most people do not profess to be teachers.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

This forum has always had this hard edge to it, as far as I recall, and there's been more than one thread about it.

Personally, I think the hard edge comes, in part, from the fact that people come here and show that they haven't a clue about Theravada or the what's in the tipitika. Naturally they ask oft asked questions, or make assertions founded on ignorance, and thus vex those who have seen these things a hundred times before and lack the energy to respond, or lack the patience to respond nicely.

Another problem may be that people just love to talk about the details, and are bored with giving simple answers. I know I've treated my own posts as a chance to masturbate in public (thrilling, btw, for those that haven't given it a go).

What's my point? None, really, except that only those with thick skins or prior knowledge of Theravada (or both) will stick around. And to me, this seems perfectly fitting.

MichaelThe thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

I basically agree with the proviso that you can't please everyone. What is "being nicer" to one person is "mincing one's words" to another. What is being blunt or even rude to the former is being direct and to the point to the latter.

I do agree that as a general policy it is good to be welcoming and gentle to the newbies regardless of what they say, as long as their are genuine and civil. But I think the "old heads" are already doing this, are they not? Maybe you can PM the mods with example where you think people were not?

What I'd suggest is to "be the change you want to see in the world"... give the responses you feel are appropriate, and they may well resonate with others, or they may not.

Everyone is different, and everyone has different proclivities and expectations they lay upon the shoulders of others.

People will explain things according to their own understanding, and most people do not profess to be teachers.

Metta,Retro.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

alan... wrote:old head # 1: "i've heard things like this before as well, however to my knowledge the buddha never said any such thing. here are five sutta examples where he says otherwise. although it could have come from a little known mahayana sutra or some really late mahayana/vajrayana non canonical text written by an individual or something, but it's not likely a theravada idea. cheers!"

Really? you think its better to misinform people about other buddhist sects rather than just tell them the truth?

"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

I do think we've had a few more "heated discussions" than usual of late. While I don't post too often, I read a lot and just shake my head when a conversation starts to go awry. I try to shrug it off, but I have come to the conclusion that the source of it really is bruised egos.

I hope no one takes my saying that the wrong way...

In any event, I think there are a lot of occasions where we could think a little bit longer about what we're posting before we hit the button and send our typewritten speech across the internet for all to read.

I am a new member to your forum. And an example of someone who does not know. I do not know.

I would like to know. I am not a Buddhist, I am a Hindu. But nevertheless, I would like to know.

I have many allegiances to India. Because of that, there is no avoiding Lord Buddha, Who after all was a Prince from Nepal-India Who obtained Enlightenment. As with most Hindus, my respect for Buddha is notable, and I am coming from the perspective of a continuing crisis within Hinduism, there are examples of Hindus "converting" to Buddhism.

This crisis has origins in birth-based caste doctrines, it continues today and due to fear of a decline of Hinduism is actually surfacing once again as some within Hindu schools are building walls around themselves in an attempt to protect their interests and to hide.

There is also a tone in such circles, driven by fear, to argue all the time, to use mean language, to take things too personal, and even when the point or truth to be made is grounded in dharma it is done in a matter that is projecting these same tones which do not do service to the message.

I respect the Buddha because He told what needed to be exampled and expressed to those such as me who do not know. I hope if the message is grounded in dharma that it can be made with that spirit. Surely if it is dharma, then this is possible from those who know.

I have two posts, and just exploring the forum to try and know more. I have not fully explored the forum to know if what is implied in this thread has validity or not, or is n example perhaps of what happens in other practices. It will be interesting however, I hope patience is a path.

Reductor wrote:What's my point? None, really, except that only those with thick skins or prior knowledge of Theravada (or both) will stick around. And to me, this seems perfectly fitting.

And part of progressing in the Dhamma and as a person is to have a thicker skin, to be able to handle insults and criticisms. It is not always easy to hear criticism, especially when it is not constructive and unfounded. In general though, it is good practice to let criticism and insults roll off, to shake them off and ignore them. A natural tendency is to fight back, to get defensive and this is usually ego-based. So the more we can move away from that and let it go, the better.

However, newbies are welcome here too and this is a place for all of us to learn. If there is any post that does not meet the standards of the Terms of Service, it can be reported (the ! button), even if it is a post by a moderator or administrator. I am pretty sure all moderators and administrators (including me) have had at least one post removed.

Your post count and join date mean everything. They are in direct correlation to your knowledge and experience of the dhamma. So post a lot for a long time and then people will take you seriously. Furthermore, you can say anything you want once you've been around for 3 years.

Right?

Hello?

{{{{{crickets}}}}}}

[tumbleweed]

In all honesty, we could be nicer around here, but no one is perfect. You can get a lot out of this place if you don’t get wrapped up in the riffraff. Personally after 3+ years here, the only issue I have is that too many of my ‘Discovering Therevada’ posts have been denied even though they were awesome.

Best advice I can give new people – stick around until you aren’t new anymore. By the time that happens you will understand the pulse of this place and it will no longer be an issue.

“So, Ānanda, be friendly towards me, not hostile. When I teach Dhamma seeking your welfare, give ear and exert your mind to understand. This will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time. I shall not treat you as the potter treats the unbaked pot. Repeatedly restraining you, I will speak to you Ānanda. Repeatedly admonishing you, I will speak to you Ānanda. The sound core will stand the test.”

It is really a forlorn hope that everyone on a Buddhist forum will always be nice. Even in monasteries, some people can be quite difficult, or downright obnoxious. That's life — deal with it. Or, just report a post if you feel it oversteps the mark.

When I first came across this forum, I saw it had a lot of hard headed opinions and was unsure of participating. So I think this topic is a good one, because it really can go quite rough here. I mean, having an opinion is one thing, sticking to it is another thing, but the way certain people keep hold of theirs is bordering wrong speech at times, and simply not helpful at best. Sometimes it seems like people post their opinion only to make it stronger for themselves.

It may also be the kind of people that are attracted to Theravada Buddhism are less considerate with others. Just sayin'. I know I used to be, I can admit that.

That having said, it is also the limit of internet communication. I try to be openhearted here with the best intentions to everybody, but somebody who reads some of my posts with a mindset of duality, may not see it this way.

Still, it's not all wrong because it is a beautiful forum with beautiful people.

So that just leaves me with:

With metta, Reflection

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It's interesting to me, being a member on both Dhamma Wheel and Dharma Wheel the difference in tone at times, between the two. I enjoy and respect both tremendously. I have my own thoughts as to why there may be differences in tone, having studied/practiced in both Dhamma and Dharma. I still come back to the idea of trying to maintain Metta (goodwill) and an effort at right speech, with others. I'm guilty of being snarky at times, and for that I'm not always pleased with my performance. It's always my hope that new folks come to these forums and find a welcoming environment, just as out Hindu friend arrived today seeking input. I'd hate to think that someone new came to DW seeking advice, counsel or a kalyana mitta and met a nasty exchange over anatta.

SDC, post count and join time on an Internet forum have nothing to do with how much you know and have experienced the Dhamma.

I'm a newbie and was surprised how harsh this place is considering it is full of Buddhists! I like things being harsh and not sugar coating things.... And there is that here, but imho there are also posts that seem to just give the posters opinion in an unnecessarily rude way. It's opinionated, thats my main opinion

Plus a lot of people do get scared off by harsh words and the OP is right,this is the main theravada forum, we all have a responsibility to be kind.