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I don't see that being the same thing. If somebody posts in-character that their nation is doing stuff in domestic or international air/water, it's canon. Nobody has to acknowledge it in-character, but nobody gets to dispute its canonicity, either.

OOC: I don't think we can really go and ignore others, that said I think we all have a responcibility to colaberate on storylines so we know what we can accept and what we won't. One can't simply state they are doing something completely unrealistic and we all accept it as canon and reacte, flipside we can't ignore totally justified actions either. There's a fine line and we need to act like adults and find it rather than putting our fingers in our ears or going off and powergaming a crisis.

I think what Brock is referring to is the fact that Australia has taken offence at a German action and has decided to take it out on France by doing the same thing as the Germans because there are no German possessions in the Pacific. As a GA member I kinda take offence to that, It's not some dark GA scheme to prevoke the commonwealth, the GA has not consolidated as one voice and condemned the whole commonwealth for Australia's actions. This is between Australia and Germany, its been brought to the leagues attention by Australia (likely needlessly as I'm unaware of any Australian protests being sent IC to Berlin first) and Germany has questionably flown near Australian possessions. Atlantis has been keen on keeping this matter between the party's involved and letting them solve it. Dragging other GA members (and other commonwealth members for that matter) into this mess will really accomplish nothing, unless the aim is to sour relations between the commonwealth and the GA. That's something that Atlantis is not seeking and I'm fairly sure Britain and France are not either.

I know we've had alliances sabre rattle before but we've all discussed how out of hand things get when we confuse OOC comments with IC comments. I'd like everyone to think about that before they take action.

OOC There have been no overflights of French territory by Australian aircraft. That was a line by an officer on what he wanted done, not what actually has happened.

Now for the naval exercise that was officially announced and will happen. I dont see how anyone could have a problem with it. Its not like I am having it in the Bay of Biscay, but rather right of my coast and major bases.

OOC There have been no overflights of French territory by Australian aircraft. That was a line by an officer on what he wanted done, not what actually has happened.

I understood that. I'm just saying that I decline to see the gauntlet if you throw it down, nor hear the sabers if you rattle them. :thumbup: I'm still of the opinion that relations between France and Australia are pretty decent (just as they are between France and the rest of the Commonwealth) so I'm not going to see anything that jeopardizes that.

if we're going to have players declaring what they will or will not accept or acknowledge from other players in this manner, I do not see a point in continuing this sim. to bring up some history...even when we had players that did not mesh well with us, and departed less than amicably....never did anyone declare their actions invalid, or retconned out of existence. they were, like all our players interactions, incorporated and worked into the narrative.

I continue to see the general appeal, and unique quality of this board and this game to be that interactivity. it is at the very core of the game, and not a matter to be discarded as cavaleirly as i've seen some players wish.

if your only interest is writing self-contained fiction wherein only things that you think up or approve can occur, and conform to your long term plans of...whatever...i truly believe this is entirely the wrong format for your interests.

other players are not going to conform to your long-range plans. other players are going to do things that are inconvenient or disruptive to your goals and aims. this is how life works, and this is how history and politics frequently work.

and to be blunt, on this specific issue (since I'm currently without a computer, and tired of dancing around the issue)...you guys KNEW how foxy would react to all this. it's obvious that you manipulated your narratives to goad him into these responses, complete with Gotchya! loopholes to counter his complaints to the league. to then turn around and declare that you find his entirely predictable reactions unrealistic, and thus not in your personal canon...i really have no words.

if we're going to have players declaring what they will or will not accept or acknowledge from other players in this manner, I do not see a point in continuing this sim. to bring up some history...even when we had players that did not mesh well with us, and departed less than amicably....never did anyone declare their actions invalid, or retconned out of existence. they were, like all our players interactions, incorporated and worked into the narrative.

Nonsense. There've been a good dozen occasions where that's happened. A lot of the stuff Howard did was worked into narrative, while other things were carefully retconned or just intentionally forgotten. We've allowed replacement players to retcon stuff all the time. Heck, look at snip, having to retcon fifteen years of Italian sim reports.

and to be blunt, on this specific issue (since I'm currently without a computer, and tired of dancing around the issue)...you guys KNEW how foxy would react to all this. it's obvious that you manipulated your narratives to goad him into these responses, complete with Gotchya! loopholes to counter his complaints to the league. to then turn around and declare that you find his entirely predictable reactions unrealistic, and thus not in your personal canon...i really have no words.

Okay then. Let's stop dancing around the issue.

You say we KNEW how he'd react? Hardly. Foxy is hardly predictable, and if you'd asked me before this started, I would've put money on doubting he'd even notice for two or three months, real-time. If he HAD noticed, I would've expected an OOC post expressing displeasure, followed by a long period of silence. That's certainly the way it's happened in the past. Actually taking it to the League, like he's done? I never would've expected that. Foxy had his original draft of his original post in the Commonwealth folder for nearly a week before it showed up here - and if you'd asked me then, I would've said "Eh, he probably forgot about it, already." As to "Gotchya!" loopholes? If Foxy had responded to the 'military bases' issue by saying "Oops, I didn't know about that, can I fix that statement", I would have backed off on the issue entirely. After all, I can understand that he may not have researched the issue and didn't actually know about the restriction - we all make mistakes, and sometimes we have to retract foot from mouth. But instead Foxy and Shin tried to justify it by the silliest logic I've ever seen. Bah.

Now, I will apologize to Foxy for often being rather abrasive towards him (certainly more than I ought to be) due to our past conflicts. It is improper of me to allow past history to color present interactions, and I will attempt to be better at that in the future.

But since we're not dancing around issues, Shin, I'd like to note that YOU have goaded Foxy along this entire time, sniped at Bruce and I from the sidelines when we tried to point out some issues, and generally aggravated the inter-personal relations between those players most closely involved. I'm not going to question your motives, but I could. After a lot of consideration, I declined to take IC notice of certain potential in-character provocations, hoping to allow troubled waters to quiet down. Now you're jumping all over me for it, accusing me of some sort of grand nefarious scheme to provoke something or other or whatever. Frankly, I resent that your words and actions seem calculated to provoke further problems, rather than attempting to calm things down. If you felt I was out of line, then as a fellow moderator you should have approached me privately, shared your concerns, and perhaps suggested a more tactful approach for me to take. But you did not do so, and, frankly, I feel you took the option most suited to ratcheting up conflict even further, all the while championing "interaction". If I offended you by my words and actions... well, I apologize. But you've definitely offended me by how you've chosen to respond. I may take a few days vacation from posting here. This sort of "interaction" wears me out.

* * * * *

I would like to suggest that, instead of careening further down this unproductive path of discussion, that we limit all future posts in this thread to in-character statements only.

Quoted

You say we KNEW how he'd react? Hardly. Foxy is hardly predictable, and if you'd asked me before this started, I would've put money on doubting he'd even notice for two or three months, real-time. If he HAD noticed, I would've expected an OOC post expressing displeasure, followed by a long period of silence. That's certainly the way it's happened in the past.

Well, I felt that something was going to happen the moment DF posted "If those ships are headed to New Calendonia Australia will not be happy at all..." especially considering Bruce's reply to that. Most things Foxy has done are things I expected...

... except for...

Quoted

Actually taking it to the League, like he's done? I never would've expected that.

... didn't really expect that either... although I think I should have since I may have mentioned the League to him so whether that gave him the idea or not, I do not know...

I was thinking of taking the matter of the German presence to the League as Pacifica after TheCanadian mentioned it, but seeing as no one ever bothered to put Pacifica on the LoN list, I thought it would be rather useless for them to go there (as it would be the complaints of a non-LoN member vs a LoN member so Pacifica would have no real confidence about the fairness of any proceedings, although I was thinking about doing it through Japan).

Quoted

Russia and Ireland, the latter being on the council this year, basically concur with the above.

... you mentioned semi-IC that the correct venue would be the Permanent Court of International Justice. I have tried to figure out which nations would be there but I don't know if being on the council would matter or not. Also, if either Russia or Ireland were one of the judges, wouldn't that mean that with "basically concur with the above" that they would be biassed? Does that mean that all nation that has given an IC statement regarding this matter would or should be disqualified as a Judge?

Quoted

I would like to suggest that, instead of careening further down this unproductive path of discussion, that we limit all future posts in this thread to in-character statements only.

It's a DF post. It was to be expected that it would become less and less productive the more we tried to make it more productive.

Quoted

You say we KNEW how he'd react? Hardly. Foxy is hardly predictable, and if you'd asked me before this started, I would've put money on doubting he'd even notice for two or three months, real-time. If he HAD noticed, I would've expected an OOC post expressing displeasure, followed by a long period of silence. That's certainly the way it's happened in the past.

Well, I felt that something was going to happen the moment DF posted "If those ships are headed to New Calendonia Australia will not be happy at all..." especially considering Bruce's reply to that. Most things Foxy has done are things I expected...

Foxy's made similar dire promises before and never followed up on them. The only thing that's changed here was that ShinRa returned from a month long posting hiatus to goad Foxy along in the private folders. Hadn't been for that, I still say this whole discussion wouldn't even have started.

Quoted

The only thing that's changed here was that ShinRa returned from a month long posting hiatus to goad Foxy along in the private folders. Hadn't been for that, I still say this whole discussion wouldn't even have started.

... so based on that I would say that you knew that DF could react (and since ShinRa was goading him, there was a reasonable chance that he would). Still that bit also explains to me why you and Shin have been kinda bashing heads against eachother regarding all this.

Quoted

And here I go again, jumping back into the conversation when I said I was going to bow out of it. Darn you, Walter! You make too many comments I just *have* to reply to! Stoppit!

Yeah, sure. Go blame me. I just reply to the comments of you guys. I can't help it that you lot make a lot of comments that I reply to.

uhm... sorry... I guess that that reply was the most unproductive part of the whole thread.

To be honest I had a few more things which I deleted at the last moment as it would not really add anything of value to this thread and make it even more unproductive than before. I thought it would be more interesting to find out what the Permanent Court of International Justice would be like when it comes to judges (or if there would be a jury like in criminal courts and what it would be like) and what the status of Pacifica would be when it comes to the LoN.

re; snip and italy- as i said when it first came up, i maintain that the massive retcon and rewrite he's doing is unneccesary. whatever RA did during his tenure, we all continued playing the game with such things as he made them, and nothing drastic fell apart. it happened, it's done, moving forward is the way to go.

re; how frequently i post- i post when i have something to post about. the majority of what's been posted to the board lately are not things i've had any comment on, and particularly have no bearing on canadian interests.

re; goading foxy- one, if i was 'goading' anyone, it's been Hood, not foxy, since canada and oz obviously cannot address issues on this scale without the crown's support. two, those private boards are private for a reason, and i resent your decision to bring details of those discussions up publicly

re; 'sniping from the sidelines'- as a nation, canada feels obligated to support their australian cousins from french-supported bullying from the germans. furthermore, canada has long disappproved of the imperialist ambitions displayed by the current german regime. none of this is new or sudden.

re; foxy's 'unpredictability'- i find this claim of total surprise at foxy's reactions dubious, at best. australian disapproval of the german squadron is not news, with the obvious example of the bar brawl that occured a while back. this will also hardly be the first time australia (or mexico) has thrown together a display of strength in response to some adverse foreign interaction. he has done nothing in this crisis that he has not done before in some other crisis, including diplomatic protests.

Why haven't I protested to the LoN in the past? One the Germans where not as bold, and two no one really cared the last few times I did protest. This time Australia had greater support and a continuous pattern of German actions. I waited a week in RL waiting for the news of the German squadron in port in order to date my own. And are Australia's actions IC provocative? Perhaps, there has been to much IC peace and love.

Why haven't I protested to the LoN in the past? One the Germans where not as bold, and two no one really cared the last few times I did protest. This time Australia had greater support and a continuous pattern of German actions. I waited a week in RL waiting for the news of the German squadron in port in order to date my own. And are Australia's actions IC provocative? Perhaps, there has been to much IC peace and love.

Please tell me the continuous pattern of German actions. I've only seen 1 recon mission close to an Australian base and one bar dustup apparently started by the Aussies.....

Quoted

Please tell me the continuous pattern of German actions. I've only seen 1 recon mission close to an Australian base and one bar dustup apparently started by the Aussies.....

I believe there was more than one recon mission carried out by the Germans. Although there was just the one close to the Australian military installation (as far as I know, it has not been established what it exactly is so you can't exactly use the word 'base' for it), the other flight(s) should also be considered to be part of the so-called "continuous pattern of German actions" (I think Foxy probably also considers their presence as well as each movement they make to be part as well). Also I remember the bar dustup differently. The Germans were the ones who started it (just as the crew of the Enterprise were the ones who started the fight with the Klingons in a bar on Deep Space Station K-7 in the Star Trek TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles").

*goes off to look at more info about the Permanent Court of International Justice*

Reading the latest dispatches from the League of Nations Council meeting, President Dewey shook his head.

"Now I understand why Wendell passed away from a heart attack in 1944. The Australians and Canadians are too obstinate for their own good, and the Germans and French need to fire half the lawyers they have. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion and needs fixing. Fire up the Sacred Cow, the Americans are coming."

Turning to Secretary of State Theodore Roosevelt Jr, "It might not be a bad idea to do a tour of Europe while we are there. Send out a dispatch stating the US President is planning a European tour starting in Switzerland. I think Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Iberia, and Russia should do for stops afterwards.