Ms Ngudle - Mr Ngudle, mother and son welcome to the Commission hearing. We are very-very delighted to see you. Would you like to use the earphones or am I coming through can you hear me all right I you could just tell me can you hear me all right? Can we just check that to make absolute - ja that sounds much better.

Do you want me to try it again, is that okay, right. As I mentioned to the first witness one of the requirements is the taking of the oath and I would like to ask you if you are prepared to do that? Would you please stand.

BEAUTY NOMBULELO NGUDLE Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE

In a moment I am going to ask Mary Burton to assist you in telling your story. It goes back a very long time in fact in 1963 legislation was passed in Parliament which enabled the police to detain people or a maximum of 90 days without trial.

That of course increased in subsequent years. But three months - perhaps a little more than three months after that, Khulile Looksmart Solwandle Ngudle, was detained. He was amongst the very first South Africans to die in detention and youíve come to tell us that story and I am going to ask Mary Burton if she will lead you and help you to do that.

MS BURTON

Hello Ms Ngudle how are you keeping?

MS NGUDLE

Hello, fine thank you.

MS BURTON

We should explain that you are here together with your son and both of you are going to speak to us this morning, is that right?

MS NGUDLE

Firstly in 1963 I lost my husband and before he died he just disappeared. He didnít write, he didnít sent any money I was - I was living with three kids.

We were very poor, we didnít know what to do. After a while his cousin came - the husband to his sister. I asked her where is your brother-in-law, and she say no, my brother-in-law is not here, he got arrested. And I asked her how long is he going to be in jail, then he said no heís been several - heís been arrested several times.

Thatís when I told him that my husband is not sending any money to me. After a while, we were still living that kind of life, one day in 1963 September the police came in - in my house where I was living with my mother, my mother-in-law. They came to tell me that my - Looksmart has passed away. My mother asked them what happened they said he killed himself, so my mother cried and we all joined her. And then the police left. They went back to where they came from, we didnít even know where they were from - was that your home.

In the same week black policeman came in - this policeman said they want us to go Middledrift, myself and my mother-in-law so that we can be given a ticket to Pretoria. My mother-in-law said I cannot go to Middledrift because I have a small baby, my baby was a month old. My mother said the person who was going to go there, will be her, sheíll be the one to go to Pretoria. She left for Pretoria, she was given the ticket. When she got there, she went to the first prison. When they asked what they can help her with, she said I am here to bury my son. They asked the name of the son, he said itís Looksmart.

They said she must go to the second prison, when she got there, she was also asked what is her purpose of her visit, she said I am here to bury my son, I was told to come here. She was also sent to a third prison, when she got there, she was also asked - this was a very tall building. There were other woman from Pretoria, she was also asked - what is the purpose of your visit, she said I am here to bury my son, I am told to come here.

Then she was told to wait a little while. They said who is this - name of your son, he said he is Looksmart, he was told to wait. They are going to come and they are going to take her to an upper floor. While she was still waiting, she said she is looking for her clothes - for his clothes. Nobody answered him - her with the question of clothes. While she was still waiting, she was asked by the other woman what she was doing here, she told them the same story that she was still here to bury her son.

But now in all this prisons Iíve been told that I should come to this tall building. What she was told by this woman, was that she must just run away from this place and go to the station, nobody is being buried here, this is where people are being killed. She must just escape as fast as she can. And she did that and she took the train and she left for home.

When she got home we asked her were is Looksmart buried, she said no, instead I was nearly killed, they didnít even give - give her the clothes, but he was just advised by this other woman to run away to the station before she gets killed. While we still sitting at home a telegram came in from Zithobile, her brother he was here in Cape Town. He said they were still investigating about the case.

What - they said what happened was I am the one who is being wanted now. Now he sent me money so that I can come here to Cape Town, so I came to Cape Town. When I got here in Cape Town, I went to Guguletu, in [indistinct] - when I got there to my uncle, the police came, they took me to the police station. The police asked me what did Zithobile said to you.

I said no he didnít say anything to me. He said are you sure - they said are you sure he didnít say anything, I said yes I am. They said you are going to go to Pretoria, so I asked who am I going to go with. And they said I am going to go with the special branch and I asked how will I do that when I have a small baby, so they said we will all go, the three of us.

So we all left to Pretoria, the three of us, including the wife of the special branch police. When we got there they said Beauty we are going to put you into prison you are going to sleep in this prison because we have no place to - for you to sleep in. So the police in Pretoria took me so I asked where am I going to sleep, then they said you are going to sleep in this linen room for the police because we have no place for you. And my child was crying, so I asked what are we going to do with my baby, because she needs to be bathed, they gave me water with a bucket so that I can wash the baby, so I did.

They brought food, I refused it. I slept in that room until the morning. In the morning the police came to fetch me telling me they said Zithobile is here with the lawyers, so I left, we went to Court. In Court I didnít say anything the lawyers were doing all the talking. They said to me your husband wasnít killed by us, he hanged himself.

They discussed and we - there was just harassment and fighting and squabbling, police were just going up and down, not telling me anything other than that, my husband killed himself.

Afterwards we left, I just saw people leaving, so I also left, I was told that I should also leave hurriedly, the police just said I must be - escape quickly to the station, running away from the police because when they - the police, if the police see us they will - they will shoot us. So we took a different secret routes, we went to my uncle.

Zithobile left because he was on holiday and I was left in Orlanda, he was the one who was going to - to the Courts. Because I was too nervous, I canít even tell you what was going on in that Court. In the third instance, to the Court proceedings, the lawyers said afterwards, they said Beauty, these policeman are refusing with the witnesses in here.

We have lots of witnesses inside, people who saw what was happening, but they simply refuse that the witness should come forward. I stayed for three months in Johannesburg, only God will answer your case, thatís how I came back. Something else that I have forgotten. When I came back, I was coming back home, I was told that the boers were keeping on coming in at night looking for Beauty they were going to give her money for the death of her husband.

During that my mother-in-law was injured, because she was running away from this police. My mother-in-law escaped, she got cut by a rock and she - in the fields just under her foot, then she was treated in hospital for this. After that the policeman didnít come again, people were coming in with the special branches, they were, they kept on asking how am I living on with my children.

I would just tell them that we are poor, there is nothing for us to eat. And after that I went to look for work for my children, I have been working since then, my child now are at home - are at school. So the questioning of you and your family went on for quite a long time even after your husbandís death.

MS NGUDLE

Yes the - the detectives use to come.

MS BURTON

Did you believe that your husband had hanged himself?

MS NGUDLE

No I didnít believe that, they showed us the photograph and they told us that he was arrested and on the photo he was in the accompaniment of the police. So it was clear that he didnít hang himself. They publicised him showing him and saying that he has committed suicide. They said he just the pyjama tie to hang himself.

Are there other things that you would like to end of Tape 2, side A.

MS NGUDLE

[indistinct] kids what can happen, I am very poor with my children, I just want Looksmartís bones to come back so that we can bury them, we never got a chance to bury him and we not satisfied with that. As we are sitting here we donít have a home. My children are at school and itís very difficult for me because I am not even working.

MS BURTON

How many children do you have at school.

MS NGUDLE

I have six kids right now.

MS BURTON

I know that you said you felt that when you were called to appear in the Court, nobody had listened to what you had to say. I hope that you feel that youíve had a chance now to tell us who are here and that many other people who will be paying attention, who - that we are now listening to what you have to say. I am very happy.

Thank you very much and thank you for coming to Cape Town for these hearings. Would you like to stay there while your son now talks to us?

MS NGUDLE

Yes I would like him to say something.

MS BURTON

Welcome Mr Ngudle, Dr Boraine will ask you to make the oath.

DR BORAINE

Mr Ngudle welcome, would you like to stand please.

SIYANDA HOWARD NGUDLE Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE

Thank you very much indeed you may be seated.

MS BURTON

Please make yourself comfortable and take your time. You were six years old at the time of your fathers arrest and I understand he was arrested in Cape Town, but you didnít hear until September - your family was then notified that he had died during his detention is that correct. You were a young child and your mother had a small baby, would you like to tell us what you remember of that time.

MR NGUDLE

There are some things that I still remember, even thought I was still small. I still remember the police coming in and when they arrived the grownupís all just screamed. This was something - this was a very familiar scene that when a person has passed away people - people cry and this small ones would know that okay something has happened.

Then we heard okay my father has passed away. When we heard that he has passed away, we expected that okay there will be a funeral as usual when a person has passed away. But in this case what surprised us was the - the coming in of white men, especially at night - they had absolutely no respect. And we all had to run away and run away - and run from them. As my mother has said, that during the escapes my grandmother got injured.

I remember that my mother when she left for Pretoria, to the Court proceedings, that time we were at home living with my grandmother. We were waiting - waiting that my mother would come back then we would hear what was going on in Pretoria. We kept on hearing from the people that my father was killed by the boers even though we were small, we did not really know what exactly what was going on. As we grew up, we kept on hearing how people are being treated even at home as we had grew up my mother kept on telling us that inn - during the inquest, they were told that my father had - had hanged himself, even in the inquest nobody was - nobody was found responsible for it.

The lawyers were looking for witnesses but now the witness were prevented from coming up. One of the witnesses would be mentioned, and it was Tlale who was with my father in the cell that time. It looks as if when my mother was coming - my father was coming back, he was given food by Mr Tlale but he refused the food and his last words was this electrical shock has really injured me.

That is now why - that is now why that the people didnít believe that he hanged himself. We - since then weíve been trying to find out the truth hoping that one day we will know the exact story because we didnít believe anything about the hanging. There is one thing that we know at home that he loved us a lot. So is that when he came back from work, we had just a little time to go out an play, he would be with us throughout me an my bigger brother. I use to - he use to teach us the reversional?? songs.

Now we are very sure that he use to love us. At the same time we knew that he loved the struggle, he was living for the struggle of the people. That is why we believe that he gave up everything that he loved, such like - such as his family, he gave up his family and his own life. We do not believe that he killed himself because of his love that we all know and to the whole nation.

MS BURTON

Thank you Mr Ngudle - do you know whether - you mentioned Mr Tlale whether he is still available, would he be able to give evidence about what he saw?

MR NGUDLE

I have no knowledge about that, Ms [indistinct] Bunting as I usually hear about her, she tried to look for him, he tried to meet with some comrades in Gauteng. But as far as I know she never - she never found him. But in December as a person who was - always looking for the truth, when I was in Parliament, I met the Secretary General of the Senate, Mr Govan Mbeki he told me how my father died.

During the time they were in Prison in Pretoria. He told me that my father was tortured before he died, he told him in person that the boers were torturing him. So Mr Mbeki says that day when my father told him this, and the following day he was told that my father had passed away. Now that gives us evidence that my father was killed.

MS BURTON

[Inaudible] will certainly pursue every evidence that we can find to get to the truth of this story. Is there something else you would like to say?

MR NGUDLE

I went to school after a long period, not going to work, because I have been a student all along under very-very difficult situations. Such that in 1981, I had to start working in East London, even there I didnít get a permanent job Iíve been in and out of jobs. In 1985 I never worked again after 1985 for seven years.

And in 1991 I discovered an advertisement from New Nation where they will - where Khanya College was inviting applications from students who want to enrol there and I was also lucky to be one of the students to be accepted at Khanya College. That is now how I started to study because there it was - education there was free. When - after I passed there I went to the University of Cape Town, I finished my degree last year.

This year I am busy with my Diploma, but now because of the pressure that I am getting from my mother who is not working, I am now forced to drop out from school, there is one of our - of my siblings whoís in the college at the moment.

No-one else is working at the moment. We are all depending on my motherís pension. And now he - she can not afford all of us now. Now this is why now I have to drop out and help her. As she had said that - seeing that we didnít bury our father we would really like to have a proper funeral just like everybody else. But we donít really have the power to do that and the means to do that. We would really like that if there is a way to be helped in that regard. We would also like to be helped that - to ask that if - if the Commission can help us with the - with my siblings who are still at school.

Because now we believe that if my father was still alive, we would of been brought up just like all the other kids and got all the other privileges just like every other child who was loved by his father.

MS BURTON

We have certainly have been taking note of all of those things. I understand that one of the witnesses who told you of your father during the time that he was in prison was a comrade of his Mr Christmas Tinto, now Senator Tinto. And I believe that Senator Tinto is also willing to corroborate the evidence is that correct?

MR NGUDLE

Yes that is true. Now I remember that Senator Christmas Tinto in one of the occasions when we remembered our father, he mentioned the fact that if the death of my father the way he knows it. And he saw him when he was arrested and he was - he also saw him when he was put into Caledon Square, and I think that he also can help in that regard.

MS BURTON

Thank you very much Mr Ngudle, thank you for all your testimony to us this morning. We will now therefore ask Senator Christmas Tinto to come to the microphone and to be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON

There may be questions.

MS BURTON

Are there - do you want to handle the questions - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you - any questions?

ADV NTSEBEZA

Thank you Siyanda and your mother, thank you very much. I would like to ask mother and you Siyanda, did you ever see your fatherís funeral - grave?

MR NGUDLE

[Answer inaudible]

ADV NTSEBEZA

Now that should worry you that you never saw your fatherís grave but you still want to have the funeral.

MR NGUDLE

[Answer inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON

Any questions on this [indistinct] - no - thank you - yes.

DR BORAINE

If I could just ask you one short question, you mentioned that your father met Govan Mbeki in prison at Pretoria Central is that right?

MR NGUDLE

[Answer inaudible]

DR BORAINE

Now you mentioned that your father told Mr Mbeki that he was being tortured, is that right?

MR NGUDLE

Yes thatís true.

DR BORAINE

How did he communicate that - how did he tell Mr Mbeki?

MR NGUDLE

He said my father whispered to his ear as the Rivonia Trialist were - were put together with the other prisoners during the exercises. He told him that he was going to give him a note, just a little paper so as he did - he did drop the little paper when he was just passing next to him.

Now as a - Mr Mbeki just pretended as if he was tying his shoelace, and then he picked up the paper and he read it in his own time. Now in the paper it was written that he was being tortured, that is now my father [intervention]

DR BORAINE

Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you - we are really surprised that - to see that - that you drop out of school for such a long time and then you come back. This is absolutely amazing we congratulate you, thank you.

DR BORAINE

Senator Tinto welcome very much to the witness stand. Senator Tinto I understand that you are willing to give witness today.

MR TINTO

Ja Mr Boraine.

DR BORAINE

Thank you, I have to ask you to take the oath please.

CHRISTMAS TINTO: Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE

Thank you very much, please be seated, Mary.

MS BURTON

Good morning Senator Tinto and welcome.

MR TINTO

[Answer inaudible]

MS BURTON

I believe that you have heard the testimony that has been given by Ms Ngudle and Mr Ngudle, the wife and son of Looksmart Solwandle Ngudle. And that you have some further information that you can give us on his death.

MR TINTO

[Answer inaudible]

MS BURTON

Please will you tell us what you have to say.

MR TINTO

During the time of our arrest, under the Act, under the [indistinct] Act, we collected ourselves knowing that we are going to be arrested. I met Looksmart Ngudle - Solwandle, he told me that he was sure that when he was - he was [indistinct] - when he was arrested he was going to be killed.

Two weeks after that, I was also arrested. I was kept in Caledon Square. During the three weeks that I was arrested, I heard a loud sound the policemen were celebrating. They were saying we got Looksmart. I donít even think that they knew his surname because they were using Looksmart which is his first name.

After a little while I was in then upper cell, my cell was just directly facing the steps. They came with him rushing, kicking him, beating him up going up the stairs. What I noticed after looking at him while he was going up the stairs, is that as a person who had beard, they pulled out his beard on half of his face. It wasnít shaved as usual, it was just some hair pulled out of the face.

He was bleeding heavily on it - from his mouth. Something that I donít really know happened after that, my cell was opened by the police. They threw him in, after that they were surprised to see that there was another person in here - that was me. And now they pulled him out - during that short period, there were two policemen who had beaten him up.

It was Sergeant Greeff and Sergeant Van Wyk who are known as Spyker. Both those boers were beating him up. He tried to say something, just during that time these boys were trying to ask me what he was trying to say. So I told the police that I - I donít know what he said because I didnít hear anything. They took him away to the next cell and then went down again.

And then in the morning there was this loud noise again. I shouted outside through the window because I could - the other people from other cells as well I tried to shout to tell the others that Looksmart is in the boers hands and they really beat him up and I think that they are going to kill him, considering the way they were beating him up. Now we went to sleep, on the second day I didnít see him.

On the third day I tried to be on guard just to listen what is actually going on, on the stairs. Now I saw - I saw him with the police, but now they had covered him, handcuffed him behind his back. Now there were three more boers with Van Wyk and Greeff. That was actually, that was the very last time we all saw Looksmart, Solwandle with our naked eye. That is how I saw what happened.

MS BURTON

Can you tell us what month that was, it was in 1963 wasnít it?

MR TINTO

I was arrested - I was arrested in February 1963. Now he was arrested also in February 1963 end of Tape 2, Side B Ö more questions.

CHAIRPERSON

Any questions - yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA

Mr Tinto I would really like to ask that - did you know Looksmart in the struggle?

MR TINTO

I knew him a lot.

ADV NTSEBEZA

But we now we donít really see this - there is something that we see that he started the struggle in the 1950ís - do you testify to that?

MR TINTO

I donít know for how long because we went into the ANC - we joined the ANC on different times, I joined the ANC in 1991, others were already in the organisation. I canít really differentiate when was it that he joined the organisation, but itís been a long time already.

ADV NTSEBEZA

Did you know him during the time when he was working for The New Age Yes I know him.

MR TINTO

[No audible answer]

ADV NTSEBEZA

Do you also know that during the 60ís he was the head of - he was of the Umkhonto we Sizwe.

MR TINTO

That is something that I cannot testify to because I donít know.

ADV NTSEBEZA

Did you know that he was the one leading the Umkhonto we Sizwe, he was the one who was recruiting - were you recruiting together.

MR TINTO

No our own recruiters.

ADV NTSEBEZA

Did you have direct communication?

MR TINTO

Oh! yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON

Oh! Sorry Denzil.

ADV POTGIETER

Thank you Chairperson, Senator just to confirm the detention which you and Mr Ngudle was subjected to was the 90 day detention in 1963?

MR NGUDLE

Yes we met in 1963. On two occasions that I have been arrested in 1957 during the [indistinct] boycott, I wasnít arrested with him, we were not in the same cell.

ADV POTGIETER

But the incident that you testified about, you were detained at that stage under the 90 day Detention Law.

MR NGUDLE

Ja.

ADV POTGIETER

Now was that solitary confinement, solitary detention - alone in a cell?

MR NGUDLE

Ja I donít really know here now, but we were - [inaudible]

ADV POTGIETER

I am just waiting for the translation, I donít hear it. Yes could you perhaps repeat it, I think the translation service has missed that part.

MR NGUDLE

[indistinct] 90 days we use to see it as a place where you go - you would be detained separately in your separate cell when you are under interrogation.

ADV POTGIETER

Now that detention and the police that were involved was that the Security Police at that stage or which police was it?

MR NGUDLE

Yes Security Police.

ADV POTGIETER

Were the two police persons that you identified, Van Wyk and Greeff, were they from the Security Police?

MR NGUDLE

They were.

ADV POTGIETER

And the other three police that you saw as well that you referred to in your evidence, was that also Security Police persons?

MR NGUDLE

That - the rest I didnít know them, but I knew Greeff and Van Wyk, but they were dealing with the Security Police.

ADV POTGIETER

And then just finally Senator did Mr Ngudle ever told you why he feared that he would be killed if he was detained?

MR NGUDLE

No he never tell me but he said that he knows that he is going to be killed.

ADV POTGIETER

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you a lot sir, itís obviously that this thing started a long-long time ago as we can see now that you are in high position. We shouldnít forget that, where we come from. Thank you very much sir, you too madam and you son, thank you.