This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna

Mike,I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?

From a pure STR perspective, you are an "in-betweener" as far as being possibly in 513-1113 Combo or 21-2311-Arn. You have 406s1=11 and 617=13 so you could easily have been L513+ but I see you've tested as L513- that solves that question mark.

Since one person in 21-2311-Arn is DF21+ I recommend that you test for it. If you are DF21+, then there are other considerations to test for. If you are DF21- then I'd recommend you backup one level and test for DF13 to make sure you are DF13+.

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13. The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255. I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

Unfortunately, FTDNA's old deep clade packages were built before we knew about DF13, the "Big Kahuna", and DF21, DF49, L513 , Z253 and Z255, the "Big Five."

I don't know how you will come out. This is just the sequence I'd follow if it was me.

Mike,I came back DF13+ as expected and DF21+.I suspect I am in the 21-2311 Arn group.Have any of this group tested downstream of DF21.What would you recommend as the next test.

Richard is correct. Z246 is a good suspect for you but he is even more correct that David Reynolds is the expert on DF21.

If you matched with any of P314.2 people you might test for that as an alternative but it does not appear you do.

Although the full details are not known yet, this test includes around 12,000 Y-SNPs, and at this point, no one knows exactly what we are going to find, or where. So lots of opportunity for discovery. :)

(And if you aren't N11153, please join the DF21 project, and I'll be happy to look over your results and make a recommendation.)

Although the full details are not known yet, this test includes around 12,000 Y-SNPs, and at this point, no one knows exactly what we are going to find, or where. So lots of opportunity for discovery. :)

(And if you aren't N11153, please join the DF21 project, and I'll be happy to look over your results and make a recommendation.)

Regards,david

Thanks David and Mike. I am indeed N11153. I noticed you have an Ely O Carroll cluster in DF21. According to ancient Gaelic genealogies the O Corcorains were a sept in the Ely O Carroll Clan and originated in the Fermanagh area in the 6th century and ended up in Ely O Carroll country of Offaly, North Tipperary, East Galway after the arrival of the Normans. This corresponds to the recorded history of my family. It will be interesting to see if other Ely O Carroll Septs such as Bowen, Dooley, Meagher/Maher, Kelly/Kealy, Flanagan, O Gara, O Hara, Corcoran, Healy, Nevin, O'Connor match the SNP. Ely O Carroll is DF21+ and - for other known SNPs so I will test for Geno 2.0 and see if we can define it further.

I have updated my understanding of the migrations from M269 to DF21 (my new assignment). I have only included SNPs which have 5% or more frequency and excluded private SNPs. For example M222 reaches 20%.

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+f208773 Reith R-L21/DF13/DF21 21-314-P* Germany

No one from Iberia has tested positive for DF21, but not many have tested, period. These three guys are good suspects as they match existing clusters.fE6409 Arévalo R-L21 21-1722 Spainf251256 Sánchez R-L21 21-314-P12 Spainf89912 Rodriguez R-L21/DF13 21-246-1417 Spain

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+f208773 Reith R-L21/DF13/DF21 21-314-P* Germany

Alan, the reason I suspected him as P314.2+ is that his STR signature looks like some of the P314.2 people. David informed me he is P314.2-. One interpretation could be that 388=13 (very slow) occurred in a lineage along with 406s1=11, then P314.2+ happened.

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+f208773 Reith R-L21/DF13/DF21 21-314-P* Germany

Alan, the reason I suspected him as P314.2+ is that his STR signature looks like some of the P314.2 people. David informed me he is P314.2-. One interpretation could be that 388=13 (very slow) occurred in a lineage along with 406s1=11, then P314.2+ happened.

I believe that one of the three Iberians you list has prevously tested negative for P314.2 after he had a number of similarities with that clade. He seems a good candidate to be a case like Reith.