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Originally posted by GoldenArrow

If you played the first release it basically took you 6 hours to sort out the selling/buying of things.

Well... I think you're exaggerating a bit there. It was slow, thanks to the horrid interface. But it never took me even 20 minutes to sell off everything I had, or buy something new. It was slow, but saying 6 hours is really, seriously, pushing it. It didn't take very long to figure it out, either.

I don't mind if the gameplay approaches WoW. WoW is really relaxing to play in terms of UI/controlling your character.

As for ARR being a WoW clone. As we learn more about the gameplay, that's beginning to be my fear as well. I've been getting the feeling as I read new interviews with Yoshida that they're basically using WoW as their touchstone for everything. Not just the UI and controls, but the overall game design (pacing, progression, heavy use of instancing, etc).

That worries me, because, well... what has been the increasing complaint and request over the past several years? That MMOs are too much alike, sticking too much to the "WoW template" and that players want to see something new. A revolution in the genre, not just an evolution of it.

Funny enough, it seems the one place this might be happening (and I emphasize might, considering the source) is SOE. Whether anything he's saying is worth a thing remains to be seen - he certainly doesn't have a reputation of keeping his word - but John Smedley, at least in terms of what he's saying for EQNext, seems to get it. He's said that while each MMO offers its own twist on the theme, all modern MMOs are basically the same. They play the same, they have the same kind of progressioni (kill mobs, get rewards; kill bigger mobs, get bigger rewards, wash and repeat). He includes SOE's own EQ1 and 2 in that category, so he's not just pointing at "every other game".

He's put SOE's money where his mouth is, at least in so much as trashing 2 previous designs for EQNext and starting from scratch on the new, sandbox/emergent gameplay direction it's taking.

He also very correctly points out that the current "standard" for MMO design centered entirely around pre-designed content is unsustainable. A developer spends 1+ years and a large sum of money to develop an expansion that players burn through in a month, become bored and either complain, or leave. His argument - one I can agree with, because it's actually been proven already in other games - is that in order to remain enjoyable, relevant and sustainable for the long haul (several years), they have to be built around systems that are on-going. He uses the term "emergent gameplay", which is something that's born out of such gameplay systems.

This has been proven correct in MMOs like Lineage 2, where the game (prior to Goddess of Destruction, anyway), was primarily about PvP centered around clan warfare, castle sieges and territory control. It was never big on quest content. Sieges, territory control, clan wars and such, are all on-going, because it's something players can, and will, continuously compete for. It's player-driven, and the players themselves are the content. There's no questlines necessary. There's no trackers or '!' and '?' required. There's no story dialog needed. The entire system takes care of itself. And it works. Now, PvP is just one example of this, not the only one. It's just the first one I thought of, and the easiest to describe.

FFXI had/has some similar systems. Conquest is a semi-passive competitive system where players of each nation can fight to gain control/influence over a given zone or region for their home nation. Doing so gains them certain benefits and, if they control enough, and get their home nation rank 1st in the rankings, they get additional benefits. It's not a "forefront" system, but it is one that people would actively work toward influencing because the benefits of being in the lead did affect them. And this system played out on a weekly basis. There was also Campaign Battles, which is a kind of "system" in FFXI - although due to some poor decisions SE has made in the past few years (-cough- Abyssea -cough-), it's become all but irrelevant...

That actually brings me to another benefit emergent gameplay/systems have over static content. Static content is "finished", out-leveled and becomes obsolete. Emergent Gameplay systems never do.

So, my point in all that is that I think, if SOE and others who are trying to go that route now (and I applaud them for it - this genre needs a serious kick in the ass) do it well and pull it off, it's going to leave SE effectively stuck in an increasingly out-dated and undesirable approach to gameplay. I just get the feeling that they're hopping on the "WoW Standard" bandwagon near the end of its run. Will the game "fail" because of it? Probably not, and they could remedy it by adding in more emergent systems to augment the static story-driven content. But the game's design is firmly centered around very "WoW era" design, pacing and mechanics, and that could come back to bite them in the ass in the next couple years.

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Final Fantasy MMO can stand on it's own legs, unlike any other generic MMO out there that feeds off of WoW. That's because the franchise already has a demographic existing outside the MMO space.

All they have to do is cater to that demographic, and it won't matter whether the game is a WoW clone or not. Said demographic is only interested in an FF MMO at best.

Though the demographic demands a lot from the company, features that they connect to the franchise. Impressive audiovisuals, engaging stories and familiar elements that only a Final Fantasy can have, like summons, jobs, moogles and chocobos. SE is making sure that their demographic can identify this game as a Final Fantasy, while making sure that it isn't bashed by others for being inferior to the other games in the genre.

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Tagent

The problem with what you say is that in order for a sandbox MMO to function you need pvp. Player driven content = pvp. And let’s face it.. Lots of people hate pvp in their MMO. Players are just opposed to having their enjoyable night of questing ruined by being ganked over and over by some 2 -3 people. Some people like it, most people do not.

The reason WoW or EQ did so well was because very large groups of players enjoyed challenging PvE content, they liked working out a new mob strategies and group/raid content. But that leads to bigger mobs and more stuff. It’s pretty much the back bone of Themepark games. And as long as you have a level based system then things levels will go up, mobs will get harder and repeat

I’m not sure you can name a working sandbox game that isn’t based at its core with pvp. I have been playing EVE for years and even though they have dozens of “expansions” it’s more or less mass Player on Player content that drives the game. Look at Planeside and PS2 it is 100% player content. But you can’t sell a game to the masses based on PVP.

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Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone. When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success. This is amazing.

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

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Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone. When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success. This is amazing.

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

Wow obviously your not keeping track of final fantasy ARR like me i was in in 1.0 since a year ago and trust me you got your dam sources wrong likeseriously? Yoshi ISNT GONNA MAKE A CLONE WOW are you seriouse? if that was the case half of the community would've raged and quit the game. yosh is just taking some idea from wow not the whole dam game and just making it with final fantasy world are you slow? Dont understand why people cry and whine like wtf? if your gonna cry about it dont follow the game but if your gonna be guessing of what you think might happen is dumb. Look just seriously dont even make dam topic about false things you hear watch the dam video if you call that wow jump off a building couse your slow.

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Originally posted by Hamger8

Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone. When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success. This is amazing.

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

Wow obviously your not keeping track of final fantasy ARR like me i was in in 1.0 since a year ago and trust me you got your dam sources wrong likeseriously? Yoshi ISNT GONNA MAKE A CLONE WOW are you seriouse? if that was the case half of the community would've raged and quit the game. yosh is just taking some idea from wow not the whole dam game and just making it with final fantasy world are you slow? Dont understand why people cry and whine like wtf? if your gonna cry about it dont follow the game but if your gonna be guessing of what you think might happen is dumb. Look just seriously dont even make dam topic about false things you hear watch the dam video if you call that wow jump off a building couse your slow.

Grammar, please.

I've followed this game all along, through 1.0 to 2.0. Every step of the way since Yoshi's appointment to turn FFXIV around, he has mentioned time and time again about "bringing FFXIV up to standard" and "making FF feel". This translates to "World of Warcraft with a FF skin". Wake up.

The proof is everywhere. Look at the alpha leak videos. ARR doesn't really even resemble our current game beyond the character models. The tone is completely differet. They changed the aesthetic of the game to be much less serious.

Anyway, WoW is basically a quest-based progression system with raid endgame. That's what FFXIV will be with fluff content tacked on the side (housing,chocobo raising), and with the armory system (ffxiv's only saving grace thanks to Tanaka).

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Originally posted by alyosha17

Originally posted by Hamger8

Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone. When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success. This is amazing.

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

Wow obviously your not keeping track of final fantasy ARR like me i was in in 1.0 since a year ago and trust me you got your dam sources wrong likeseriously? Yoshi ISNT GONNA MAKE A CLONE WOW are you seriouse? if that was the case half of the community would've raged and quit the game. yosh is just taking some idea from wow not the whole dam game and just making it with final fantasy world are you slow? Dont understand why people cry and whine like wtf? if your gonna cry about it dont follow the game but if your gonna be guessing of what you think might happen is dumb. Look just seriously dont even make dam topic about false things you hear watch the dam video if you call that wow jump off a building couse your slow.

Grammar, please.

I've followed this game all along, through 1.0 to 2.0. Every step of the way since Yoshi's appointment to turn FFXIV around, he has mentioned time and time again about "bringing FFXIV up to standard" and "making FF feel". This translates to "World of Warcraft with a FF skin". Wake up.

The proof is everywhere. Look at the alpha leak videos. ARR doesn't really even resemble our current game beyond the character models. The tone is completely differet. They changed the aesthetic of the game to be much less serious.

Anyway, WoW is basically a quest-based progression system with raid endgame. That's what FFXIV will be with fluff content tacked on the side (housing,chocobo raising), and with the armory system (ffxiv's only saving grace thanks to Tanaka).

I've followed it from start to fininsh got legacy status as well.

Simple thing is if you don't like it don't play it, no one is going to force you to play it but something tells me you will.

No MMO out there is a WOW clone. Do you know the meaning of a clone because that would mean that we would have many MMO that have the same lore, races, classes and skills world as WOW.

Clone

a person or thing regarded as an exact copy of another:

a computer designed to simulate exactly the operation of another, typically more expensive, model:

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Originally posted by alyosha17

Originally posted by Hamger8

Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone. When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success. This is amazing.

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

Wow obviously your not keeping track of final fantasy ARR like me i was in in 1.0 since a year ago and trust me you got your dam sources wrong likeseriously? Yoshi ISNT GONNA MAKE A CLONE WOW are you seriouse? if that was the case half of the community would've raged and quit the game. yosh is just taking some idea from wow not the whole dam game and just making it with final fantasy world are you slow? Dont understand why people cry and whine like wtf? if your gonna cry about it dont follow the game but if your gonna be guessing of what you think might happen is dumb. Look just seriously dont even make dam topic about false things you hear watch the dam video if you call that wow jump off a building couse your slow.

Grammar, please.

I've followed this game all along, through 1.0 to 2.0. Every step of the way since Yoshi's appointment to turn FFXIV around, he has mentioned time and time again about "bringing FFXIV up to standard" and "making FF feel". This translates to "World of Warcraft with a FF skin". Wake up.

The proof is everywhere. Look at the alpha leak videos. ARR doesn't really even resemble our current game beyond the character models. The tone is completely differet. They changed the aesthetic of the game to be much less serious.

Anyway, WoW is basically a quest-based progression system with raid endgame. That's what FFXIV will be with fluff content tacked on the side (housing,chocobo raising), and with the armory system (ffxiv's only saving grace thanks to Tanaka).

To be honest i don't care about grammer but let get to the chase here have you not seen the gameplay? because it isn't like wow i don't care if they take some ideas from WoW as long as it doesn't mess with the battle system. You guys making it sound like hes copying and pasting? obviously he just taking some ideas and putting it in XIV don't go second guessing it because you think its a clone without evne seeing a full gameplayt? it only Alpha for crying out load and you guys are just saying "OMFG IT A WOW CLONE"? really? because wow sucked and so far i think FFIX:ARR is awesome like seriously wait for a full gameplay or even beta for that matter.

HERE AN IDEA OF A CLONE YOU REMEMBER TERA? Have you played Raiderz it is exactly like tera only thing that isnt the same are the characters. If your saying Final Fantasy:ARR will be exactly like wow with only Final Fantasy skin without even seeing alpha your just dumb. It 7 days in alpha and the only thing the jp complained about is....... that they didn't make enought hair style that all. If they haven't complained about it being a WoW clone maybe it isn't a WoW clone?

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Sorry to say, but every game out there has some kind of "WoW Clone" In it., minus the sandboxes (don't quote me on that. Not a big fan). Just because they take ideas from a successful MMO doesn't mean it's a clone.

Like he said, it will still feel like a Final Fantasy game. Last I checked, WoW doesn't have any Final Fantasy feel.

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Originally posted by BadSpock

You know what?

I'd love love love a game with the content and systems of WoW around the time of the Ulduar raid cycle in Wrath of the Lich King (before they downsized and simplified the stats and talents) with the graphics and FF flavor of FFXIV:ARR.

You know I'd probably love that quite a lot.

Great graphics, great story, great raiding, great dungeons...

Throw in some great crafting, housing, no flying mounts - I'd play that game.

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i'm pretty sure theres another post similar to this, if you dont like FF dont play, trust me they wont starve if you dont play it, im excited as a long time FF fan to see what this game can bring. Haterade, for that deep down player hater!! haha

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I'm actually quite excited at the possibility of 2.0 being a WoW-clone. My MMO career has spanned 3 decades having spent the majority of my time in UO, FFXI, and now LoTRO. I loved the sandbox of UO and the uniqueness of XI, but the themepark just isn't a tired model for me. Creating such a game with the look and feel of my favorite franchise is just pure win, imo.

On the otherhand, I would have loved essentially XI part 2 with updated graphics, the new armory system, and a UI tailored for the PC user versus the console, which is what I thought 1.0 was going to be. Based on the 2.0 Alpha footage that was floating around, the game already seems to look, feel, move and interact a whole lot better, which has me pretty excited either way.

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Originally posted by iatesandTagent

The problem with what you say is that in order for a sandbox MMO to function you need pvp. Player driven content = pvp. And let’s face it.. Lots of people hate pvp in their MMO. Players are just opposed to having their enjoyable night of questing ruined by being ganked over and over by some 2 -3 people. Some people like it, most people do not.

Nonsense, right from your first sentence.

You do not "need" PvP in a sandbox MMO, or in any MMO.

Perhaps *you* personally need it. Others do not. PvP is only necessary in a game, or game system, designed to support and encourage it.

PvP is never "required" for anyone but PvP'ers.

I understand and realize pro-PvP'ers will disagree 100%. I've seen all the arguments debated over and over again. Going after other players is the only right way to play a MMO because going after mobs is boring, blah blah blah.. yes, I know the arguments all too well. Again. It's a PvP'er's mentality. It's not a universal truth.

I love PvP myself (even though I suck at it :-p). But I'm not so ego-centric as to believe that what I enjoy is what everyone else should enjoys. I'm not so self-centered that I believe my preferred gameplay style somehow represents "how games are supposed to be made". That completely un-earned and undue sense of entitlement so many demonstrate is, fortunately, something I don't suffer from.

PvP is not necessary in a sandbox MMO. I don't care what yours or anyone else's opinion of what "a true sandbox" is. Unless you can point me to a single, objective and authoritative source (as in, not someone's personal opinion) that defines and dictates "what a true sandbox MMO requires", and it has PvP listed, all you are arguing is your own personal preference. Personal preferences are not mandates.

There are plenty of other ways a developer can implement things that challenge players and "take away their stuff" that doesn't involve other player-controlled characters.

I’m not sure you can name a working sandbox game that isn’t based at its core with pvp. I have been playing EVE for years and even though they have dozens of “expansions” it’s more or less mass Player on Player content that drives the game. Look at Planeside and PS2 it is 100% player content. But you can’t sell a game to the masses based on PVP.

I can name two off the top of my head. A Tale In The Desert and WURM Online, which offers both PvP and non-PvP servers. Clearly, on the non-PvP servers aren't "based at their core with pvp".

Both are sandbox. Neither requires PvP at its core to work.

Now, if you're going to respond to that, please leave your goal-post where it is.

On Topic: FFXI would very much be considered a themepark by most people. Some would consider it a sandbox/themepark hybrid, but I think that might be pushing it. F

The thing about FFXI, though, is that it had your classic "theme-park" style progression, in a number of different ways. What it also had, though, were "game systems", which is - I believe - what helped it do as well as it did, for as long as it did.