Hmm… so much for that. I was on the fence there for a while, but this really doesn't sound like my sort of thing after all. Might still do the "guilty pledge", though, just to support dear ol' LB.

Ultima has done so much for me in the past, and I'd have rushed to put down my money on a dedicated effort to look back at what made the series great and then build something new and interesting (or even old and interesting) onto that. I believe many more would do the same, many more than the 14k the project has now.

Why can't LB see that?

Ultima, to me, means a living, breathing fantasy world to explore and deeply interact with, with meaningful NPCs on their daily tasks, a system of values and consequences, resource gathering and crafting and a great love for detail. It also used to mean the cutting edge of what technology allowed in that area.

Originally Posted by Moorkh
Unfortunately, they appear to have missed determining what made Ultima great (at least to me) before building onto it.

Really?

Because with what we know there is going to be:

- Interesting richard garriott single player story.
- Living and changing world with world wide effects.
- A karma system with choices effecting your character.
- A detailed world with 5 total expansions maybe more, each expansion basically doubling up the world size.
- If you can see and object you should be able to use it, very ultima like.
-combat and non combat encounters on the world map, like gypsies for instance.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could dig up some quotes to back this up.

what about:
- world exploration (where new places don't just "pop up" if the devs feel like it)
- meaningful NPCs (with more than just a local and a "global" quest per location
- NPC schedules
- love for detail
- single player that doesn't feel like it's "tacked on" late in the concept stage after it seemed opportune to
?

As for:
story - we don't know anything about it yet, I believe
living world - hard to see how that works in little chunks
worldwide effects - I can only see this working either for single player or for multiplayer, but not for both
choices - should affect less my character but more the world's reaction to my character
detailed world - I have seen no indication of detail in the world, and their dual-scale approach doesn't make a consistent level of detail any more likely
combat - no one I heard of ever played an Ultima for its great combat (except uu), so that should take second place to non-combat by leagues

Rune, I can see you feel strongly for this project, but don't feel that you need to defend its virtues quite so fervently. Aren't you bothered by any of the project's proposals?

Originally Posted by Moorkh
Ultima, to me, means a living, breathing fantasy world to explore and deeply interact with, with meaningful NPCs on their daily tasks, a system of values and consequences, resource gathering and crafting and a great love for detail. It also used to mean the cutting edge of what technology allowed in that area.

Based on what I understand - there is no reason all of that can't be in Shroud of the Avatar, as they've described it. They haven't confirmed NPC schedules yet but aside from that they mention everything you've listed. And they really are trying something new, that's why a lot of people don't understand it yet.

In that case I should be able to avoid the overworld map altogether, shouldn't I? And doesn't this directly contradict their statement that the dual-scale map reduces the amount of landscaping and detailing for them?
Also, they seem to want to "roll out" new areas at regular intervals - where, if all tiles are filled with actual stuff from the beginning?

I realize I'm being extremely sceptical here, but there was so much wrong in this update to my sensibilites that I really can't see this turning out any way I would like it to without them going back to the drawing board.

I find that people make up what they want instead of reading what a the debs said, which is what yo did in your rebuttal. I'm going off actual dev quotes not some random posters feeling in a thread. I don't blindly fight the good fight, but I do not believe in misinformation being the better basis for an argument.

The biggest argument I have read is people don't think he deserves or needs the support. Which monetarily he probably doesn't, but isn't like u are just giving him money t is more you are getting something for what you spend. I honestly think the major reason he did this kickstarter was to get fans involved and get the idea of his game out there.

Btw single player was always there from the start, as was multiplayer.

This is what the debs have said
@Chris (from Chris!) that is actually how it already works! Even in areas where you don't get encounters, you can search and zoom in to see what is there. A lot of interesting elements will just be scattered through the lands and require that kind of searching to find. Some will also be there at night, on certain days of the month, or during special events or if you have been instructed on what to look for by some one. Also, some special things will come and go.
This is a big part of why I believe that people will not feel like they losing the ability to explore. Even cooler though is there maybe times when you've been to a tile 99 times before to hunt rabbits for cooking only to find the 100th time it is a special scene!

That I consider facts, not some random poster who thinks its a copy of mount and blade.

Originally Posted by Moorkh
In that case I should be able to avoid the overworld map altogether, shouldn't I? And doesn't this directly contradict their statement that the dual-scale map reduces the amount of landscaping and detailing for them?
Also, they seem to want to "roll out" new areas at regular intervals - where, if all tiles are filled with actual stuff from the beginning?

The details of how it all works have not been revealed - but that developer said he was going to post an update tomorrow about how wilderness exploration works. Maybe your question will be answered then.

Originally Posted by Moorkh
…Ultima has done so much for me in the past, and I'd have rushed to put down my money on a dedicated effort to look back at what made the series great and then build something new and interesting (or even old and interesting) onto that. I believe many more would do the same, many more than the 14k the project has now.

Why can't LB see that?"What does it mean to everyone else, I wonder?

I agree with all of that…
Even though I recently increased my pledge to $150 due to the added swag, I'm more excited for the boxed CE with cloth map and trinket than I am about the game. If SotA doesn't catch fire soon, the CE will likely be limited to 1000 or so units, which could make it a very collectable footnote to Ultima history. Even if the game sucks, I expect to see mint CEs on eBay in a couple of years selling for several hundred dollars. Most of the world's Lord British/Ultima fans have never heard of Kickstarter, and odds are the boxed game will never make it to retail, so many obsessed fans will miss out, and be looking to eBay to complete their collection. In short, I don't see anyone who buys the CE losing money on the deal.

While I can dream of an Ultima 7 party-based SP game, I would've settled for a spiritual successor to Ultima IV… complete with a massive world constructed with 2D tiles for that retro look. I think most Ultima fans would've been thrilled… most of us would double our pledge to see that. Ironically, that would also make the game an order of magnitude less expensive to create. Sadly, Richard doesn't understand what his fans want, or what made his early work so memorable.

Originally Posted by Vindicator
While I can dream of an Ultima 7 party-based SP game, I would've settled for a spiritual successor to Ultima IV… complete with a massive world constructed with 2D tiles for that retro look. I think most Ultima fans would've been thrilled… most of us would double our pledge to see that. Ironically, that would also make the game an order of magnitude less expensive to create. Sadly, Richard doesn't understand what his fans want, or what made his early work so memorable.

Well, I'm a huge Garriott fan - Ultima IV is possibly my favorite RPG of all time, and there's no doubt I'd enjoy seeing him return to that old-school style (or a straight-up Ultima VII spiritual sequel). But I feel what made his early work special was how it pioneered new techniques in CRPG design. I really believe SotA will be a true "Lord British" game that carries on that pioneering spirit. Rehashing the same old ideas is not what he's about. I actually would prefer him do something innovative rather than remake another Ultima IV - VII.

I think if people approach SotA with a bit more open mind they might be pleasantly surprised.

Honestly, this Kickstarter only looks good if you're able/willing to give LB every single benefit of the doubt. I might be more willing to do so if his track record of the last couple decades was a little stronger. As it is, I'm just not seeing anything to get excited and contribute over.

Originally Posted by Myrkrel
I actually would prefer him do something innovative rather than remake another Ultima IV - VII.

Well, so would I… but exactly what is innovative about Shroud of the Avatar?

At one time, Richard promised future Ultimas would blend Ultima7’s 2D iso-world with 3D Ultima Underworld style dungeons and gameplay… Now that would make for an excellent and innovative Kickstarter game.

Originally Posted by Myrkrel
Latest update is up: Tracy Hickman (author of Dragonlance, Deathgate cycle, etc) will be Lead Story Designer on SotA.

What, no Chris Avellone? Maybe he is too busy with something else?
I guess Tracy Hickman will have to do… and should do a good job.

But, I'm only half joking about Avellone, who was a huge Ultima Underworld fan… and has said he would love to be a part of any potential Ultima Underworld III game.

Originally Posted by rune_74
The biggest argument I have read is people don't think he deserves or needs the support. Which monetarily he probably doesn't, but isn't like u are just giving him money t is more you are getting something for what you spend. I honestly think the major reason he did this kickstarter was to get fans involved and get the idea of his game out there.

Btw single player was always there from the start, as was multiplayer.

I consider my kickstarter pledges each as an investment in an idea and the possibility of it turning into something real. If I pledge for SotA, it's because I want to tell LB: "I, too, want you to go and try to accomplish that." I find it a fair way of gauging interest and letting fans sign up and become involved, even entitled, in a more real way that they would otherwise, even if the money itself is not really required for the project's success.
Unfortunately, really unfortunately, what I've seen and heard so far still doesn't make me want LB to do that. Sure, some features point into the right directions, but there is nothing that makes me feel anywhere near when I read early previews of Ultimas 6, 7, 8 or 9. I don't think it's me having become jaded, because there are still games where I get that reaction, be it Grimrock, Skyrim or the latest Avernum.

This is a big part of why I believe that people will not feel like they losing the ability to explore. Even cooler though is there maybe times when you've been to a tile 99 times before to hunt rabbits for cooking only to find the 100th time it is a special scene!

I'm sorry, that's not a world that I'd like to explore. That just feels random and generic.

That I consider facts, not some random poster who thinks its a copy of mount and blade.

Originally Posted by Vindicator
Well, so would I… but exactly what is innovative about Shroud of the Avatar?

Well I know details are hazy right now but after reading all the materials and watching all the dev videos - it's just the impression I get. I feel he will take the best elements of Ultima IV, VII, and UO and combine them with the latest technology to create something new, on his own terms and not beholden to the meddling of publishers. I know he is known for his huge ego and a persuasive silver tongue - but I really feel he is sincere about this project.

And Tracy Hickman has a long history with RPGs going way back to the early days of tabletop D&D (Ravenloft, etc). He has more writing experience than Avellone that's for sure. I think he's a great choice.