^^Same. I do kinda think my own outlook, an infinite constant universe with no true beginning, kinda precludes the other theories but I'm also perfectly aware that my view is not common and I think the alternative, more common one is just as plausible.

@Deku Tree I don’t think there’s a false history too it, though. I downplayed Flood apologetics in my precious post, but it’s almost impossible to understate how drastically a worldwide Flood with extreme volcanic activity would essentially reshape the planet forever. Especially if the theory about the “expanse in the sky” or “celestial vault” or whatever you want to call it is true. (Summary of that one—pre-Flood, the Bible talks about “the waters above and waters below” and an “expanse” in the sky. There’s a theory that earth originally was created with essentially a protective layer of water in the atmosphere, and that’s what God shattered and caused the Flood in addition to “the springs of the deep.” Now, it’s a lot of speculation at this point, so I’m not gonna fully subscribe to it, but it’s worth noting that the “expanse” and “waters above” are never mentioned post-Flood, and rain is never mentioned pre-Flood.)

There’s also the matter of Creation Apologetics being logic-based when the doctrine of creation is inherently faith-based. We can use apologetics to debate, or try to glean the answers to things God doesn’t reveal fully, or to clear the air about misunderstandings, but apologetics ultimately aren’t going to be the thing that makes someone believe.

@Apollo the Just You’re good! Your summary of what I said was pretty much right in line.

@CaptHayfever I hope you don’t mind me engaging in what you’re saying here, but I see a few problems in it. First of all, and to me most importantly, is that a six-day creation is affirmed in the New Testament explicitly several times, like Hebrews 4. In addition to that, the first chapters of Genesis are quoted often by Jesus himself, and whenever he uses them as an example, he speaks of them factually and as if they really happened. Adam, Eve, and Noah are mentioned repeatedly as real people. Nowhere in the whole Bible, OT or NT, are the first 11 chapters of Genesis treated as anything but the truth.

Secondly, there’s the issue of genre. The creation account is written as historical narrative, not as a parable. This is admittedly not as convincing of an argument as my first point, but I think it is closely related: again, the Bible itself internally treats the Creation account as true and factual. If I believe the Bible, I believe I ought to do the same.

But again. The doctrine of Creation, like everything else in the Bible, is an article of faith. Discussions and debates will only get us so far before we reach an inevitable logical impasse.

As an outsider, the non-literal interpretation of Genesis has been the only particularly convincing one I've ever heard. You get around most of the issues with physical evidence if you're willing to interpret six days as something much, much longer (using another line somewhere else about "days" being some massive number of years to God, I think) and most of the rest of it as simplified versions of nudging processes in certain directions like Capt mentioned.

Literal interpretations are essentially impossible to reconcile with the physical evidence, anyway. Human civilization alone stretches back much further than the oft-claimed 4,000 years, and the flood story just doesn't work with any modern understanding of physics or biology.

I find that concepts and practices such as forces of reality as being humanised and characterised and emotional are a way for people to communicate about things which are not human, and to do so using human terms. That said, I don't personally enjoy such characterisations. Living and being and having human thoughts about human-styled motivations for things which are not human is all a very self-centered practice and suggests a mediocrity of imagination to me.

One of the things that I dislike most about most established religion is how it typically structures groups of people into 'Us' and 'Them' in the guise of suggesting togetherness, which is in itself a very obviously inherent quality of the social creature that is the human animal.

I have never experienced a kindness that could or should be attributed to any religious motivation, and if it were presented as such I would likely find that deeply unsettling.

I muttered 'light as a board, stiff as a feather' for 2 days straight and now I've ascended, ;aughing at olympus and zeus is crying

One thing that I do find interesting about the Great Flood is that it shows up in just about any ancient mythology in some way. I wonder whether that's attributable to coincidence, common literary trope, or whether it actually happened.

The most common theory I've heard about flood stories is that they're inspired by sea level rise at the end of the last ice age. That was a whole lot slower than those stories typically say, but it also happened 10-20,000 years before anyone would've written about it, and the effects could be quite a lot more dramatic depending on where you lived. The Middle Eastern cultures whose stories most people know would've been most affected by the formation of the Persian Gulf.

@Marilink: No worries, man. I just think that everyone's quoting of Genesis is because that's how they still understood it, too. Sure, it's 1500 years* between Moses & Jesus, but there still weren't any changes in human understanding of the origins of the universe & life in that time. The story of Job is mentioned in the New Testament, too, but that one was even understood to be a parable by the people of the time, too.

Noah is in a whole different boat (heh) than Adam & Eve (even disregarding the 1000-year* jump in the timeline); there definitely was a great flood in the Mediterranean basin, which would've been the "whole world" known to the Israelites of Moses's time (another 1000 years* later). As we advance by millennia through the chronology, the details become more concrete. The Bible ends chronologically within a few decades after Jesus's ascension, & everything past that point is just more people talking about him anyway; his story is the most recent, the most detailed, & the most reliable of the bunch.

I realize that a literal interpretation of the Bible is a minority opinion even among Christians these days. However, like I said, I want to approach the Bible on its own terms, not on my own rationalization of it all. When I die and get to chat with Jesus and he says "btw bro, the first 11 chapters of Genesis were figurative," I'd be like, "Yo for real? That's wild, my man." Then we'll high-five and it'll be fine anyway. But in the meantime, God's Word presents those things as factual, and I trust his Word more than my own limited understanding of how things may have operated thousands of years ago.

I unfortunately had a particularly negative experience with Christianity, both of my parents were Pentecostal, so much of my religious engagement was akin to the stuff you'd find in Jesus Camp - very cult-like behavior. I guess it's not surprising that when I was an edgy high schooler I decided I'd be a LaVeyan Satanist, which, god, I'm still embarrassed with myself. I did try to paint myself as non-denominational after I grew out of edgy Satanist phase, but after a long internal battle with myself, I eventually felt that I just couldn't reconcile my personal values with Christianity and turned to agnosticism.

That being said, I do find myself with a deeper appreciation for other religious backgrounds. I figured all of Christianity practiced like Pentecosts did. It's interesting to learn about the culture and history of different religious organizations.

These cards are the only spiritual or religious tool that I have found truly works for me, because they don't demand that I adhere to any particular belief or doctrine or set of morals.

Christianity makes sense to me because I agree with the morals and think it makes sense that we were created by a higher power. Conversely, if one thinks that it makes more sense that we merely came from nothing as the result of some grand cosmic accident then they'd probably see no reason to even consider the morals of what they'd perceive to be just another book. However, if it does seem more likely that we were created then it is worth really evaluating its morals.

2 guys knocked on my door yesterday and were like, "hello sir we're out here going door to door seeing how people feel about the importance of god in their lives would you mind if I read you a bible verse?"

Not to be rude or anything but when I'm in the middle of working the last thing I wanna hear is a knock on my door with someone trying to convert me. Where do these people find the time to pay their bills? Could be holding down an actual job or going to school to better himself. This was a young dude. Kind of feel bad for people like that honestly. Having the wool pulled over his eyes.

man i completely forgot that door-to-door canvassing is still a thing because i live in an apartment complex lmao

i respect people who have the dedication to go door-to-door for literally anything, but i also personally dislike being on the receiving end, so that's what a good ole fashioned "no solicitors please" sign is for

Mormons are tenacious, I thought I could go to their church once to try it out and that would be enough for them, but it wasn't. They're really nice though and I don't want to be rude to them, so I just try to avoid them.

Kind of rude of you to assume that young people are “having the wool pulled over their eyes” because they’re willing to take time to go door-to-door.

As someone who’s planning a door-to-door canvass of the neighborhood next month to promote our fall festival, I’d like to think I’m not deceiving people into volunteering their time to do so.

I think they were Jehovah's Witnesses. I mean promoting a fall festival is one thing. It benefits the community. I don't really think I was being rude to you or anyone else. I was perfectly pleasant to them and kindly declined. I might have offended you because you see someone doing something similar to you on a volunteer basis but recruiting me for your religion and knocking on my door for a community event are polar opposites. I'm involved with the chamber of commerce, I do volunteer work with the methodist church in their soup kitchen with my elderly neighbor despite not being involved in any parish, I just like my neighbor. My business donates to non-profit organizations as well. Where or when did I ever say volunteering is deceptive?

My residence is a place of business with a sign that says "no solicitation" (@Apollo the Just) as your walking up the driveway. The only people I want at that door is UPS, clients, family or friends. I think having an opinion that a young kid being shadowed by an older gentleman to walk the neighborhoods on a weekday during work hours when he could be in school or working on his career isn't such a rude or crazy thought given my background and the reputation of the door to door preaching.

I also don't find it surprising me holding that opinion after spending six years in school and working over sixty hours a week to expand my business. In the next twenty years, I want my kids to have the option to do whatever they want and go wherever they want to. I want to see as much of the world as possible and what I do for work allows people to plan for their future. I am constantly busting my ass.

I'm sure you aren't going to be canvassing the neighborhoods noon on a Tuesday when no one is usually home also and I would never think that people are deceived into doing volunteer work. It's when you take a young adult and fill up their heads with radical religious ideals then send him into a demographically catholic neighborhood to get the door slammed in his face all day that I say they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

It's cool if you're a religious dude. That's your right as an American. I just don't really believe in it. I think every religion has important rules on how to be a good person and live a fulfilling life. I also think it's been abused and used to divide and manipulate. Which is what I think was happening to that kid.

I think it just came off as somewhat condescending is all he was saying. If the guy feels like he's doing something worthwhile then I don't think he's being deceived or wasting his time. He's busting his ass in his own way, maybe a more important way from his perspective. Not sure there's a reason to think there's anything radical about it or that he's been manipulated.

There's a lot worse stuff young people can and do get into, I don't think society respects religion enough these days. It really does do a lot more good than bad.