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[QUOTE=bagwell368;25301550]Viable? For how long? You actually think w/o a major overhaul the Celts are winning a title with KG on the team?

They arent winning a title with him on their team period. That has nothing to do with the fact that this trade is a terrible fit for our roster. Moving on.

Oh please. Ever hear of free agency? trades? the draft? BTW I like the other proposed deal of KG and PP where we get Jordan and Bledsoe and expiring Odom and trade bait Butler.

Recognize that their is a dramatic shortage of big men in the league at this point and the only way you are getting one with any skill/value back is if you trade a lot to get one. Pierce+Kg--> Bledsoe has a lot of value right now in the league. You take your best and most sure shot to get one now, waffling on the two PGs is only likely to descrease trade value and the likleyhod we score one of these guys. Draft is infinitely more viable to land one in my opinion, if you agree, why not swap Bledsoe for pick(s) that give you a shot at drafting a guy you like?

That's not so, they have trade value. They might have more while they build a resume without Rondo the rest of the year. You aren't possibly worried about "balance" this year? I'd be happy to play .230 ball the rest of the way for the pick.

No, they really dont. Terry looks cooked, Lees contract is awful for his skill set/ complementary piece status and I want Bradley for the rebuild. If you think Lee and Terry have legitimate trade value I'm shocked.

Sure it does. It makes sense until the right deal comes along. Also Bledsoe could play some #2 against shorter 2's since he can actually shoot.

Posting one clip of him blocking wades shot doesnt make him taller than 6'1. Hes athletic but he would get killed at the 2, and if you are into the whole undersized/ good defensive 2 thing, you already have bradley.

Obviously the Celts don't deal Rondo until he's back. Obviously he's going to use playing time until he's dealt if we have a viable young PG. Rondo gets dealt for a 4 or a 5, and your vaunted roster balance is all set.

And then you are still dealing one of them, whichever isnt chosen, for less than market value due to positional glut. I dont care about having quality PG play when Rondo is recovering, you are not competing anyway.

I was for the Perkins deal because the Perkins of 2008-2010 was dead and buried (and has never come back). I'm not against a defensive 5 or a 4. BTW, Jordan at age 24 is as good or better overall than Perkins. Also, moving to the EC may liberate Jordan's game and increase his output by a good amount.

Jordan is NOT a good defensive player. He is a bad individual low post player with disapointing rebound numbers for his size and leaping ability. He gambles a lot and sometimes looks good on sportscenter with some blocked shots. Be really careful what you wish for, and as the celtics I wouldnt want him here unless Garnett stayed to make sure his head was screwed on the right way. He completely unskilled and has shown zero signs of progressing since he came into the league. Really, why bother?

Somehow you and others this board think that the Celtics are in a position to dictate what we get in trades, then use some fakakta valuing system that doesn't come close to reflecting reality. It's the essence of blind homerism. We were in a much stronger position last year or the year before in terms of moving PP or KG. DA let that time go. Options are fewer and lesser - fact of life and reality.

Aside from the whole argumental fallacy/ personal attack thing you've got going here, I dont think its unreasonable to expect to some decent smarts from the front office about how you receive a return in trade. How does getting pieces that fit the roster for PP and KG make no sense while you think Terry and Lee have trade value? If your proposed deal upthread goes down, which I personally dislike because of Jordan's flaws and Bledsoe's redundancy, I would then flip Bledose for a high pick in the draft either this year or next. Jordans salary will make it impossible to do the same with him. Going into next year with a developing big (who will get lots of touches given the team sucking next year), bradley, green, and rondo whenever he is back is a pretty solid core to build off of. Jordan even fits in there somewhat nicely until his contract expires, you trend towards contention and can hope to get something better at the C.

But he won't get as much as Rondo when his deal is up in two years.

Rondos current deal is a bargain. Hes an definite allstar and clutch time killer on a relatively low long term deal. Dont let your personal dislike for him get in the way of that at least.

KG IMO is an all time top 12, but right now, he's not even a top 40 in this years NBA. No team will give us anything for what he used to be.

He wasn't talking about getting value for a former top player, he was commenting on your comment about the slim odds of drafting a young KG/Duncan in the lottery. You missed his point here. Who is this rollins94 guy? Nice to meet you. I'm loving your Bags shredding posts already.

"Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

They arent winning a title with him on their team period. That has nothing to do with the fact that this trade is a terrible fit for our roster. Moving on.

One way to rebuild is stack up on 1's, 2's, 3's - with weak bigs (not so far from the make up of the team now). The Celts are sure to lose and stack up a year or two's worth of lottery picks. Use them on the bigs. Use additional money on good FA 4/5's - who will come because there is a vacuum and the $$.

waffling on the two PGs is only likely to descrease trade value and the likleyhod we score one of these guys.

That's a theory, not a fact.

No, they really dont. Terry looks cooked, Lees contract is awful for his skill set/ complementary piece status and I want Bradley for the rebuild. If you think Lee and Terry have legitimate trade value I'm shocked.

Depends on the deal, we get a decent player for Terry that has one more year on his deal than Terry - for instance. Lee could go to balance a deal - say Bass and Lee + a 2nd rounder for some player. Your arguments seem awfully elastic, almost as if you invent new positions in order to foster a disagreement.

Posting one clip of him blocking wades shot doesnt make him taller than 6'1.

Really? Physical height is one thing, a players vertical is a modifier to that number. The NBA has had 2's that were not tall. AI for one.

I dont care about having quality PG play when Rondo is recovering

My goal is to be rid of Rondo as soon as possible for the right price. He's not a leader, not consistent, no longer defends, can't be the #1, #2, or #3 option on a serious contender. Cash him in. Since so many "experts" such as Magic think he's the best PG, some team is going to pay because they don't believe their solution at PG is good enough - there is no glut of perceived All Star PG's in the NBA.

Jordan is NOT a good defensive player.

You "cap" doesn't prove your claim. He's good enough, and is 24 years old.

He completely unskilled and has shown zero signs of progressing since he came into the league. Really, why bother?

He's managed to shoot with high efficiency. Perkins was/is very unskilled as well. Intimidation was his key skill, he was/is also a meh rebounder for his size since 2009. He's been poor at blocked shots, steals, and has hands of stone.

Rondos current deal is a bargain. Hes an definite allstar and clutch time killer on a relatively low long term deal. Dont let your personal dislike for him get in the way of that at least.

Rondo is an All Star in the pathetic EC, and with his nice quiver full of National TV games, he's played poorly since his peak of 2008-2010, including the inexcusable 14 game vacation he took after Perk was dealt. The sooner the Celts deal him the better (as long as the price is right). BTW I noticed you didn't deny my claim on the next contract for both.

6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

I was referring to the confusion that circulates about "trade rumors". Where they originate from, the denials, the life of their own they seem to have.

A "Catch 22" situation (great book and perhaps a better movie, btw) is a predictament defined by illogical rules and absurb conditions so that the only possible solution scenarios bring one back to the original conundrum thus offering no real viable "solution".

Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

He wasn't talking about getting value for a former top player, he was commenting on your comment about the slim odds of drafting a young KG/Duncan in the lottery. You missed his point here. Who is this rollins94 guy? Nice to meet you. I'm loving your Bags shredding posts already.

I brought up the point of KG in the first place buddy. You spend a lot of time looking for any hint of a post that *might* have me in any way, since you are so bloody unable to generate any of your own.

Last edited by bagwell368; 02-04-2013 at 10:27 PM.

6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

I swear, everytime I check in on these forums its the same old thing. Bagwell bashing on Rondo... atleast I got some sig material out of this one.

Carry on fellas.

Since the conversation is mainly about obtaining Bledsoe than it's totally reasonable to talk of what to do with Rondo. BTW with Rondo as the 3rd scoring option this season how do you think we are doing as a "serious contender" (before he was hurt) - not too bloody ****ing good, were the Celts? How has his defense - once a strong suit coming along this year before he was hurt?

Do you actually have any value to add?

Troll

Last edited by bagwell368; 02-04-2013 at 10:24 PM.

6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

One way to rebuild is stack up on 1's, 2's, 3's - with weak bigs (not so far from the make up of the team now). The Celts are sure to lose and stack up a year or two's worth of lottery picks. Use them on the bigs. Use additional money on good FA 4/5's - who will come because there is a vacuum and the $$.

Did you read even read my post? Not sure how the roster projection of a core of rondo, bradley, green, jordan, high pick big man X constitute a garbage roster. Maybe in the short run sure, but i think we both agree this team isnt competing for at least 2+ years after the rebuild, right? FWIW, your above projection is more palatable than previous posts have been, but it still assumes that you are able to score a very talented big in FA. In the "super friends" era, no max value worthy big is going to a roster that isnt winning games or have other max level talent. Maybe my model is more conservative but its also less erratic- bring in talented young players to play together on the floor at the same time and learn and grow together. I think thats more reasonable than expecting to hit the lottery on the next KG/Duncan or signing the next Dwight.

That's a theory, not a fact.

As is your stubborn insistance that their values will not diminish despite lack of minutes for both/ rondo coming off injury. Your opinion vs mine i guess, thats fine, but i would hazard a guess that most on this board would envision that sort of scenario not playing out in the optimal way you foresee. Time will tell.

Depends on the deal, we get a decent player for Terry that has one more year on his deal than Terry - for instance. Lee could go to balance a deal - say Bass and Lee + a 2nd rounder for some player. Your arguments seem awfully elastic, almost as if you invent new positions in order to foster a disagreement.

Ah, the old argumental fallacy once again. I am disagreeing with your position which you put on the board, hope thats alright. But I dont think getting a MLE guy with another year on his deal helps you clear cap to sign a max level FA once you face the expirings of Green and/or potentially jordan. Again, thats hard to do on a rebuilding team but if they eventually hope to make the leap into contention shedding these guys salary to make room for a max FA is crucial. Wouldnt fielding a balanced, improving roster with a solid core be attractive to max FA's, and then combining cap from say a expiring Jordan down the line and these shmucks get you the money to do so? Lee's contract is terrible for his play/ production, hes been no better than average per PER15 fr the last year and a half plus. Bass falls into that category somewhat as well as a guy top level teams wouldnt want either- hes so undersized and poor defensively that his offensive skill and efficiency is basically null. You arent getting value for these guys at all, id only swap them for shorter deals or picks if anyone is dumb enough to take them

Really? Physical height is one thing, a players vertical is a modifier to that number. The NBA has had 2's that were not tall. AI for one.

Leaping abilitys great, no one is doubting bledsoes athleticism. But hes a guy who is far undersized at the 2 and that can and will be exploited. the avaergae sg is getting bigger and bigger, having bledsoe iso'd in the post in those matchups would be a nightmare. If that alignment worked so well do you think the clips would just give him minutes at the 2 along with paul rather than trot out the corpse of billups and other such nonentities?

My goal is to be rid of Rondo as soon as possible for the right price. He's not a leader, not consistent, no longer defends, can't be the #1, #2, or #3 option on a serious contender. Cash him in. Since so many "experts" such as Magic think he's the best PG, some team is going to pay because they don't believe their solution at PG is good enough - there is no glut of perceived All Star PG's in the NBA.

Funny, your argument seems far more geared towards the first 7 words of that paragraph than anything else. You cannot possibly think the price will be right more for rondo in a year than it is for bledsoe now? I would hope so given you are giving 2 valuable, proven chips for him that would mean a whole lot to a serious playoff contender. Just because they dont mean as much to us doesnt mean you screw the pooch and take a puzzle piece that doesnt fit, only to have to pry your best existing piece out to make it fit. Makes no sense.

You "cap" doesn't prove your claim. He's good enough, and is 24 years old.He's managed to shoot with high efficiency. Perkins was/is very unskilled as well. Intimidation was his key skill, he was/is also a meh rebounder for his size since 2009. He's been poor at blocked shots, steals, and has hands of stone.

See my previous post about Jordans defensive issues which figure to get worse on a rebuilding team. If you cant buy in and play disciplined, accountable D on the top five team in the league, forgot about it on a rebuilding squad. Again, id take him as a placeholder until we get something better, nothing more. Hes been the league for a while now, he is what he is. His efficiency is a function of getting wide open looks and dunks unimpeded to the basket, guy cant shoot a jumper worth a lick and has no post game to speak of.

Rondo is an All Star in the pathetic EC, and with his nice quiver full of National TV games, he's played poorly since his peak of 2008-2010, including the inexcusable 14 game vacation he took after Perk was dealt. The sooner the Celts deal him the better (as long as the price is right). BTW I noticed you didn't deny my claim on the next contract for both.

All circumstantial to deny the fact Rondo has been this teams best player the last 2 years or so. The conference excuse is just that, an excuse, and dont bother trying to say his contract isnt a bargain. Sure hes a headcase, as we've discussed, so is Bledsoe. And giving bledose a new deal is the ultimate gamble, as hes never played enough/ started long enough to show whats he's really got. Guys got injury issues as well, dating back to Uk and before as well as missing half a year last year. Hes the ultimate gamble and even if hes everything you hope he is and the sun shines out of his ***, he is only slightly cheaper on a LT deal and more rounded than Rondo. If rondo isnt that great as you say, no one will give sufficient value for him once we decide to deal him. Make up your mind, he cant be crap enough to make keeping him not worthwhile while also drawing massive trade interest from other teams. Your scenario is the ultimate lose-lose, either way the C's end up eating value they desperately need to allocate to different aspects of a rebuilding roster.

[B]All circumstantial to deny the fact Rondo has been this teams best player the last 2 years or so.

Last year in the regular season KG was undeniably the best player on the team, and PP was 2nd. In the playoffs KG and Rondo were pretty much co-leaders, perhaps Rondo had a lead.

This year Rondo started out as the best player, but he fell off badly and again PP and KG outplayed him.

Two years ago KG, PP, and RA all played better than Rondo.

So no - over the past 2.5 years Rondo has not been the best Celtic - in no way is that a supportable argument.

The conference excuse is just that, an excuse

Sorry, the league is a league not divided like the AL and NL before interleague. There are a good deal more good PG's out West. So, let's see your list of PG's - this year only - so no Rose, and give Rondo a mulligan for games missed to his injury (not his suspensions).

and dont bother trying to say his contract isnt a bargain.

I thought it was a steal when it was signed. I think it's still good, but not amazing.

Sure hes a headcase, as we've discussed, so is Bledsoe. And giving bledose a new deal is the ultimate gamble

I didn't notice anything since he became a pro. Did you have something to share on that front?

as hes never played enough/ started long enough to show whats he's really got.

In his 3 years in the league he's been improving at a fierce clip.

Guys got injury issues as well, dating back to Uk and before as well as missing half a year last year.

And now Rondo's injury puts him well out front, and at what is it - 3 3/4 years older than Bledsoe, will he be the same again - seems pretty risky.

Hes the ultimate gamble

That's blarney. There you are carrying on with a reasonable argument. How about labeling your argument - the ultimate horse **** attempt to denigrate a perfectly reasonable idea, with ridiculous hyperbole?

If rondo isnt that great as you say, no one will give sufficient value for him once we decide to deal him.

Rondo has pulled the wool over a lot of peoples eyes. I'll take my chances that some GM will fall for him.

Make up your mind, he cant be crap enough to make keeping him not worthwhile while also drawing massive trade interest from other teams.

Excuse me? Believe me, I'll do nothing at your behest. It's time to cash in our chips. If Bledsoe is one guy we get, that seems good from where I sit, if it's someone else fine. If DA manages to rebuild but does not get a PG, then Rondo's place is obvious per DA's choices. If Rondo was as great as you claim - what was it - best Celtic over 2 years - then why are we playing better w/o him? Maybe Rondo will have no trade value Bledsoe or no.

Your scenario is the ultimate lose-lose, either way the C's end up eating value they desperately need to allocate to different aspects of a rebuilding roster.

And your overheated rhetorical flourishes are annoying, and do not serve to edify - anything.

KG is irreplaceable - by trade, draft, or FA - for what - 10 years, 30? Trying to get an embrionic version of KG in a deal for KG, is a insuperable task. If this team wins the title in 6 years, how many players on the current roster will be on it? One? Two? None? If any, how many will be starters? How many will come in trade vs FA and draft. My bet is more come in FA and draft then trade. If so, the concern over matching positions or not carrying two PG's may turn out to be nothing, or minor issues.

Last edited by bagwell368; 02-04-2013 at 11:10 PM.

6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”