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I used to think the same, but fact of the matter is classic maps attract players and customers, which is what QL and ctf needs right now.

Duel had that treatment years ago. Now it's finally time to give ctf some love.

Duel and tdm are doing fine nowadays (in europe) so they can benefit of new maps. It is true that playing the things from 10 years ago makes the game stagnant and boring on the long run, but if there's no one playing though there is a potential playerbase then it is better to revive it by getting into the game what people want to play. After that if it does fine then new maps can become the priority, not the opposite, which is what was done with duel but not with ctf.

You completely ignored the list I put above and keep repeating this lie.

Originally Posted by megaman3

In-house maps (from idsoftware/syncerror, not the community) don't matter as much as classic maps in any mod.

Furious Heights is duel map #4 on QLRanks. Ironworks was CTF map #3 on #playquake last time I checked. Both good maps, but both had rather cold reception originally. What made them good was people actually playing them a lot and developing some play styles on them.

The thing is, nowadays there's enough maps to play a bo5, so nobody even _tries_ to learn the maps that get released. This also happened in TDM with Tornado and Terminus, unfortunately. And judging by response to Arcane Citadel (how can it have no rail?!), it's in danger too. But in CTF, it was like that much longer - people wanting old maps and ignoring the new ones being delivered every quarter. And look where it took them.

Originally Posted by megaman3

And it is true that the current community mappers like tdm more than ctf, no contest

And you write this in reply to cityy, community mapper who's released multiple CTF maps, but no TDM map (yet)?

You completely ignored the list I put above and keep repeating this lie.

There are classics and classics. Ztn is 'more classic' than t2, just like wcp18 is from finnegans. Right now, after 5 years of this project, ctf does not have its aerowalk nor pro-dm13 nor dm6, whereas in duel they got them in an instant.

Furious Heights is duel map #4 on QLRanks. Ironworks was CTF map #3 on #playquake last time I checked. Both good maps, but both had rather cold reception originally. What made them good was people actually playing them a lot and developing some play styles on them.

http://qlranks.com/duel/
1.- classic
2.- classic
3.- classic
4.- new
5.- classic
6.- q3 map from years ago. Not a timeless classic but not new to the community by any means.
7.- classic
8.- new
9.- classic
10.- well it technically isn't duel, but amphi is a classic.

8/10 of the most played maps in duel are classics. Do you think people subscribe because of t7 or because of ztn?

The thing is, nowadays there's enough maps to play a bo5, so nobody even _tries_ to learn the maps that get released. This also happened in TDM with Tornado and Terminus, unfortunately. And judging by response to Arcane Citadel (how can it have no rail?!), it's in danger too. But in CTF, it was like that much longer - people wanting old maps and ignoring the new ones being delivered every quarter. And look where it took them.

In duel some maps were 'forced' by tournament admins, then players decided they are no good and that some forgotten classics are pretty nice still, like dm6.

In tdm there is plenty of new maps activity, including the historical activity in #tdmpickup, lans and online cups.

About ctf lets face it, most of the new maps are not comparable with the good old ones. Syncerror is not the community and only two of his maps are well received, all mods included (t7 in duel and ironworks in ctf).

And you write this in reply to cityy, community mapper who's released multiple CTF maps, but no TDM map (yet)?

There are classics and classics. Ztn is 'more classic' than t2, just like wcp18 is from finnegans. Right now, after 5 years of this project, ctf does not have its aerowalk nor pro-dm13 nor dm6, whereas in duel they got them in an instant.

But it was you talking about CTF and TDM, no mention of duel. And CTF got more maps, including two most played maps currently (Japanese Castles and Spider Crossings). So apparently, CTF not only got more maps, but also better classics.

Originally Posted by megaman3

About ctf lets face it, most of the new maps are not comparable with the good old ones. Syncerror is not the community and only two of his maps are well received, all mods included (t7 in duel and ironworks in ctf).

"Not comparable"? They have all needed qualities + new features on top. Problem is that people don't want new features. They just want to exercise the skills from old maps they already posses. Finding new ways to play new maps will mean that someone else can be better on them. We don't want that, do we?! ;)

The two maps you mentioned were made by Method. He also created Siberia and the CA1-3 maps in open beta. Sync's creations are Stonekeep and Reflux, both fun to play.

Originally Posted by megaman3

What I wrote is true anyway.

Except it isn't. Community mappers are creating maps for both modes and the one guy you replied to so far made only CTF and duel stuff.

The only difference is how willing the communities are to learn new maps and develop new tactics on them. CTFers just want to play same old forever, any map with new elements must be bad by definition ;) Many TDMers are the same, but there's at least some drag to try new maps in there.

But it was you talking about CTF and TDM, no mention of duel. And CTF got more maps, including two most played maps currently (Japanese Castles and Spider Crossings). So apparently, CTF not only got more maps, but also better classics.

That's 2 classics, the equivalents of ztn and aerowalk. There are at least 5 timeless classics left that are as classic as those, no secondary classics.

Duel is a good comparison because that was the focus at the beginning of the game and players are as stubborn as ctf's. CTF's aerowalk, spider crossings, made it into the game about 4 years after in development, which simply didn't happen with aerowalk.

"Not comparable"? They have all needed qualities + new features on top. Problem is that people don't want new features. They just want to exercise the skills from old maps they already posses. Finding new ways to play new maps will mean that someone else can be better on them. We don't want that, do we?!

The two maps you mentioned were made by Method. He also created Siberia and the CA1-3 maps in open beta. Sync's creations are Stonekeep and Reflux, both fun to play.

Are you saying siberia is as good as wcp18? I'd argue ironworks is, but all the other new maps aren't by any means. They are not as fun for pub play and are not as 'competitive' either.

Sync's creations are completely forgotten by the community. Sorry but it's objectively true, no matter if they are good or bad (I personally like reflux).

Method's ctf map is considered to be not particularly good, hence dropped many years ago. The kind of small activity it already has would be even less if there were 'primary classics' ctf maps, which is what happened at the beginning with duel: almost lost and ca2 were completely dropped the minute ztn and aerowalk were introduced. I kind of like that map and it is refreshing to play new stuff, but I'm only one man.

If you don't believe me here's the latest clanbase nations ctf map pool: literally one map from id software. Also and following the prior note, if wcp18 and the 4+ others were in the game then either cold cathode or infinity would be out of it in an instant (only one of those two new community maps), and I am 100% sure that this will be backed up in pub play as well when qlranks releases ctf data soon.http://clanbase.ggl.com/rules.php?lid=13014

Except it isn't. Community mappers are creating maps for both modes and the one guy you replied to so far made only CTF and duel stuff.

The only difference is how willing the communities are to learn new maps and develop new tactics on them. CTFers just want to play same old forever, any map with new elements must be bad by definition Many TDMers are the same, but there's at least some drag to try new maps in there.

Here's the problem: you acknowledge CTFers want to play the good old stuff instead of having a more open attitude, like TDMers. The problem is QL lacks those maps: it only has 2 community-made true classics.

I used to think that what QL needed was new maps. It more or less worked with duel and tdm, though they aren't as played as the classics by any means (qlranks), but not with ctf. Fact of the matter is people like to play what they like and that is what sells. The company and the community tried to change that but objective data says it did not work, therefore the focus should change and do what they did with duel 4 years ago: it is the exact same situation as in that time.

Since you didn't answer before I'll ask you once again: Do you think people subscribe because of t7 or because of ztn? Do you think people subscribe because of Infinity or because of Japanese Castles? Answer is obvious and so is what the priority should be.

Now comes the sad part. CP9 is in the game (ctf's aerowalk) but CP17 and CP18 aren't (ctf's pro-dm13 and pro-dm6) no matter they are from the same author. That means the dev team contacted him for cp9, they have his contact info but thought dm13 and dm6 shouldn't be in the game. The company is losing money and players are not having as much fun because of a moral decision that is proven to be not working for years.Here's a second question. What would you do in id's shoes, focus on making new maps or getting dm13 and dm6 first?

Duel is a good comparison because that was the focus at the beginning of the game and players are as stubborn as ctf's.

I agree, but you're not defending your original statement that TDM got more love than CTF. It didn't.

Originally Posted by megaman3

Are you saying siberia is as good as wcp18?

I have absolutely no idea what wcp18 is. I'm not a Q3 nor CTF player, can't argue here.

Originally Posted by megaman3

Sync's creations are completely forgotten by the community. Sorry but it's objectively true, no matter if they are good or bad (I personally like reflux).

Off-topic, but isn't this a pity? Stonekeep was forgotten because of size (being created with 5v5 in mind, I guess), but Reflux? Just because there's a powerup you ctfers don't know how to use or counter? Time to learn Quake maybe? :)

Now comes the sad part. CP9 is in the game (ctf's aerowalk) but CP17 and CP18 aren't (ctf's pro-dm13 and pro-dm6) no matter they are from the same author. That means the dev team contacted him for cp9, they have his contact info but thought dm13 and dm6 shouldn't be in the game.

And what I think after reading the headers is that first one was probably created as community member and put into a compilation pak. The other was created by Threewave employee. Same person, but possibly different legal status of his creations. That's also only a theory, but just as good as yours :)

Off-topic, but isn't this a pity? Stonekeep was forgotten because of size (being created with 5v5 in mind, I guess), but Reflux? Just because there's a powerup you ctfers don't know how to use or counter? Time to learn Quake maybe?

I'm pretty sure the consensus for most people disliking Reflux was because you pretty much are forced to chase people through lg no matter what because it's the fastest route out. The other paths can't be as easily reached in the same time period (Unless you RJ to the YA bridge/catwalk thing; you can rarely, if ever, catch up by using the RL path).