Re: [gensoft] An event database

... When I get a chance I ll try to look at the latest version. I didn t have much joy with earlier ones. But I think what I am looking for is something wider

Message 1 of 25
, Feb 14, 2006

0 Attachment

On 10 Feb 2006 at 7:55, Bob Velke wrote:

> Steve Hayes said:
>
> >So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many relation
> >between people and events.
> >
> >As I understand it that requires a minimum of three tables - Events, People,
> >and Roles.
> >
> ><clip>
> >
> >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see that it
> >might be useful?
>
> The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes,
> tens of thousands of researchers find it useful.

When I get a chance I'll try to look at the latest version. I didn't have
much joy with earlier ones.

But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

... I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ( a relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and events ) is,

Message 2 of 25
, Feb 14, 2006

0 Attachment

Steve said:

>But I think what I am looking for is something wider than a lineage linked
>genealogy program -- one that will include people who aren't family at all.

I think that any program which has the characteristics you described ("a
relational database with a many-to-many relation between people and
events") is, by definition, not a lineage-linked program and is designed to
support people who aren't family at all.

Bob Velke
Wholly Genes Software
www.WhollyGenes.com

Paul Blair

... many-to-many relation ... Events, People, ... that it ... Hi Bob The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial version, but all I can

The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
know...

Paul

Bob Velke

... I don t know what partly use some preset info means so I can t help you without some more specific information. If you haven t already reviewed the

Message 4 of 25
, Feb 19, 2006

0 Attachment

Paul said:

>The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
>version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
>know...

I don't know what "partly use some preset info" means so I can't help you
without some more specific information.

If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
(http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
etc.

Bob Velke
Wholly Genes Software
www.WhollyGenes.com

Steve Hayes

... I m also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing about

Message 5 of 25
, Feb 19, 2006

0 Attachment

On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:

> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve Hayes said:
> > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
> that it
> > >might be useful?
> >
> > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years and, yes, tens
> > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
> The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
> version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
> know...

I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
programs.

I hope to see whether it can do what I want, though I suspect that what I'm
really looking for should actually be a separate program. From what I've seen
so far, TMG does still seem to be primarily a lineage linked genealogy
database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more
power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

... I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn t. It seems to be a bug, as if gave my browser and address of http:// which i don t think any

Message 6 of 25
, Feb 19, 2006

0 Attachment

On 19 Feb 2006 at 8:15, Bob Velke wrote:

> If you haven't already reviewed the Guided Tour
> (http://www.whollygenes.com/tmgtour.htm), however, then you should do
> that. It provides an detailed review of concepts, terminology, navigation,
> etc.

I just tried to get to that from within TMG, and couldn't. It seems to be a
bug, as if gave my browser and address of

>On 19 Feb 2006 at 6:37, Paul Blair wrote:
>
> > --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Velke <bvelke@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve Hayes said:
> > > >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
> > that it
> > > >might be useful?
> > >
> > > The Master Genealogist (TMG) has been doing that for 15 years
> and, yes, tens
> > > of thousands of researchers find it useful.
> > The problem is figuring this out. I have just downloaded the trial
> > version, but all I can do is partly use some preset info. So I don't
> > know...
>
>I'm also looking at the latest version of The Master Genealogist, and have
>had a couple of problems using it, but will ask in soc.genealogy.computing
>about that, as I don't think this should be a "help forum" for particular
>programs.

Heather Stovold

And Clooz doesn t do what you want??

Message 8 of 25
, Feb 20, 2006

0 Attachment

And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

database. I'm not saying that disparagingly -- if it does that job well, more power to it. But what I'm looking for is not primarily a program that links
people to people, butr rather one which links people to events.

Steve Hayes

... I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could share something about their use of those programs and how well they work. I

Message 9 of 25
, Feb 20, 2006

0 Attachment

On 20 Feb 2006 at 9:59, Heather Stovold wrote:

> And "Clooz" doesn't do what you want??

I once asked on soc.genealogy.computing if users of Clooz and Custodian could
share something about their use of those programs and how well they work.

I downloaded a demo of Clooz, and played with it a bit, but I'd like to hear
from people who've used it a lot.

I gather there will soon be a new version, so that might be worth looking at.

A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every event that

Message 10 of 25
, Feb 21, 2006

0 Attachment

A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot
produce a report that searches across the different types of forms if you are
wanted to search for every event that happened in a specific place (for
example, a county). That isn’t currently included, nor is it
planned for the immediate future. It is a feature on the drawing board
though. You can produce this report for a specific person, though. Liz
is hoping to have the new version out sometime in March – the final round
of beta testing is coming up soon.

It is possible to do this (generate a
report across event types based on a county) with Genota Forms, which I’m
playing around with – this program has a ton of flexibility and data
entry is very streamlined once I have my form templates set up.

... Thanks very much for that. I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and haven t reinstalled it yet. ... I haven t used Genota

Message 11 of 25
, Feb 21, 2006

0 Attachment

On 21 Feb 2006 at 6:43, Carol wrote:

> A difficulty with Clooz is that you cannot produce a report that searches
> across the different types of forms if you are wanted to search for every
> event that happened in a specific place (for example, a county). That isn't
> currently included, nor is it planned for the immediate future. It is a
> feature on the drawing board though. You can produce this report for a
> specific person, though. Liz is hoping to have the new version out sometime
> in March - the final round of beta testing is coming up soon.

Thanks very much for that.

I had A Clooz demo on my computer, but upgraded the operating system and
haven't reinstalled it yet.

> It is possible to do this (generate a report across event types based on a
> county) with Genota Forms, which I'm playing around with - this program has a
> ton of flexibility and data entry is very streamlined once I have my form
> templates set up.

I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota, and when I first tried
it, thought it might be what I was looking for, and might become that in a
later version. I have not played with it enough yet, but it looks like a very
good genealogical note taking program for keeping track of research, but I
don't think it is quite there yet as an event tracker.

> I'm not sure about Custodian - I'm still experimenting with it.

I've experimented a bit, and it seems wuite useful for keeping track of
source documents rather than events. But I haven't played with it enough, and
need to look at it some more. It's pretty expensive, though.
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@...
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727

Steve Hayes

To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events of

Message 12 of 25
, Feb 21, 2006

0 Attachment

To try to illustrate what I mean by an event based database, here is a report
from a database I keep in Inmagic, with a search argument of 1853 -- events
of that year. Inmagic is a DOS program, and reports look better in fixed font
rather than proportional.

But it is also a "flat file" database, not a relational one, which means that
one has to enter each person again and again for each event they are
associated with, which apart from making extra work, also increases the
danger of typing errors. In addition, one can only use one field for each
person, which means all information about the person has to fit into that
field -- I've chosen to use the name and RIN (if any), which I can then use
to find the person in my lineage-linked programs.

It is fairly useful and flexible -- I can sort by date, and Inmagic accepts
and interprets fuzzy dates like c1853, May 1853 etc. I can also sort by
place, and search by person or place, or even any combination of words within
the text, like "Orange w3 Sovereignty", which will find all records with the
word "Orange" within three words of "Sovereignty"

Anyway, here's the sample report for 1853:

Events relating to 1853 Page No 1

Search strategy: 06/02/21 19:35:14
GET ED: 1853

4-Jan-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

CHARLES & FRED GREEN ARRIVED IN BLOEMFONTEIN FROM TRIP TO
LAKE NGAMI
"Charles and Fred Green, brothers of the Resident, came
down from the interior about the 3rd or 4th of the month.
They had been unfortunate in their trip, had neenm to the
lake and some 120 miles to the westward of it, and just
as they had got into the midst of the elephants the fly
(tsetse) got among their horses and killed some 34 horses
and 50 head of cattle. They only shot six or eight
elephants. They also lost 50 head of cattle to the Boors,
who took them from sechele where they had left them for
their return journey. Sechele, chief of the Baquainas, a
tribe who live some 450 miles from here, also came down
with the Greens to lodge a complaint against the Trans
Vaal Boors for having attacked him without cause, killed
many of his people and taken some two hundred women and
nearly a thousand children into slavery. A young Edwards,
son of a missionary of the same name, came down with him
as interpreter. Sechele is one of the finest blacks I
ever saw, has a fine open countnenance, dresses very
neatly and clean. Although he cannot speak English he
reads the Bible in his own language and is I believe a
good Christian. We have had great fun lately, the Greens
being very jolly fellows, particularly Fred Green. We
have had reunions of an evening at Craws', screeching and
howling to the masthead, and also some very good songs
and music. Charles Green, finding that Sechele was not
likely to get much done for him in the Colony, determined
to take him home. He accordingly opened a subscription
for the purpose, and very soon collected  [blank] even
in this small town, as all the reports from beyond the
Vaal confirm us in the belief that slavery is carried on
openly by the Boors there."
People: 1. Green, Fred [140]
2. Green, Charles [502]
3. Sechele
4. Edwards, Samuel Howard
Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 45
2. cf Sillery 1954, "Sechele", p 116f

CHARLES & FRED GREEN DINE IN OFFICERS' MESS WITH ST JOHN.
AFTERWARDS MEET HENRY AND ARTHUR GREEN IN THE CLUB. HENRY
IS THE RESIDENT, ARTHUR GREEN IN THE COMMISSARIAT AND
FRED IS DESCRIBED AS SURVEYOR.
"Played one game of billiards with Charles Green, who
dined with me at mess. Present, Major Kyle, Captain
Bates, Howard and Rowland, all 45th, Cameron, Staff
Assistant Surgeon, and myself, the members of the mess,
and Charles and Fred Green and Dawson, late 45th, guest.
In the evening Lowen the magistrate and De Smidt of the
Comissariat came up. About 9 Charles Green and I
adjourned to the club, where we met his brothers Henry
Green, the Resident, and Arthur Green in the
Commissariat, and also Fred the surveyor. I played one
game with Charles Green and adjourned to my house" (St
John diary, p, 52). This is the last mention of Charles
Green in St John's diary -- perhaps he accompanied
Sechele back home, as St John had described earlier, or
perhaps went on to Cape Town, as described by Tabler
(1973:45).
People: 1. Green, Fred [144]
2. Green, Charles [502]
3. Green, Henry [480]
4. Green, Arthur [936]
5. Bates, Captain Robert
6. Kyle, Major Hallam d'Arcy
Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 52

Events relating to 1853 Page No 3

2-Mar-1853 Orange River Sovereignty, Bloemfontein

FRED GREEN GOES ON HUNTING EXPEDITION FROM BLOEMFONTEIN
WITH W. ST JOHN, JOHANNES DE SMIDT & WILLIAM DAWSON.
Fred Green set out with William St John, an officer of
the Royal Artillery, from Bloemfontein to A.H. Bain's
farm at Tempe, where they had dinner, and on to
Kwaggafontein, from where they set out on a fortnight's
hunting expedition.
People: 1. Green, Fred
2. St John, William Jones
3. Dawson, William
4. de Smidt, Johannes
Sources: 1. St John, Diary, p. 54

FRED GREEN DINED WITH WILLIAM ST JOHN IN BLOEMFONTEIN
MESS
Last mention of Fred Green in St John's diary. On 12 July
St John went on a trip to Harrismith, and returned on 13
August, when the diary ends. Fred Green may have left
Bloemfontein by then.
People: 1. Green, Fred
Sources: 1. St John Diary, p. 79

BAPTISM: ELIZABETH E. BENINGFIELD
Ron Hickman believes the baptism register was a later
copy, because of the misspelling of the names of one of
the sponsors - Maria Elizabeth Kahts, given in the
register as Kaktiys.
People: 1. Beningfield, Elizabeth Ellington [1326]
Sources: 1. Hickman 1988. Source 93, sheet 111.
Diary of events

Steve, You might try Genota Forms - they have a 15 day trial. You do have to build your own forms, although there are some that can be downloaded from the

Message 13 of 25
, Feb 21, 2006

0 Attachment

Steve,

You might try Genota Forms – they have
a 15 day trial. You do have to build your own forms, although there are
some that can be downloaded from the Forms Library. I’ve run across
a couple of bugs in it, but the developers have been very responsive to the
error reports and have posted fixes within 24 hours (usually less) of the
reports.

Carol

Steve wrote:

I haven't used Genota forms, but i have used Genota,
and when I first tried it, thought it might be what I was looking for,
and might become that in a later version. I have not played with it enough
yet, but it looks like a very good genealogical note taking program for keeping
track of research, but I don't think it is quite there yet as an event
tracker.

Ray Murphy

... [.....] ... [......] ... [....] ... Hello All, A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a request on soc.genealogy.computing for

>Now that we possibly have a quorum, or something like it, I'd like
>to ask about something that I have felt the need for for some time --
>an event database.

>You've all seen chronologies -- lists of events arranged in
>chronological order.

[.....]

>So what I'm looking for is a relational database with a many-to-many
>relation between people and events.

[......]

>So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
>if anyone else has felt the need for it.

>As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
>historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.

>Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
>that it might be useful?

[....]

>So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
>be willing to bake it.

> --
> Steve Hayes

Hello All,

A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
database project which handles people's events.

I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
discussion and offer suggestions.

My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
happen.

Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
following things:

(1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

(3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
approximate dates.

(4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
fact any event at all (literally).

Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
the Events table.
------------

When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
capability of relational databases.

Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
related to ONE event, although I feel
that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
"event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
wanted until immediately prior to export.

An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
involved.

Ray

Paul Blair

... I ve not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend! ... ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn t encourage its broad use. There are other

>
> >So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program, or
> >if anyone else has felt the need for it.

I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

>
> >As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and family
> >historians, but to general historians, biographers and others.
>
> >Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
> >that it might be useful?
>
> [....]
>
> >So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone will
> >be willing to bake it.
>
> > --
> > Steve Hayes
>
> Hello All,
>
> A few hours ago I was invited to join this group after posting a
> request on soc.genealogy.computing for assistance with an MS Access
> database project which handles people's events.
>
> I may not be an ideal candidate for this group because I only have a
> minimal knowledge of genealogy and programming (Visual Basic 6 and
> MS Access) but I know enough about those things to be able to hold a
> discussion and offer suggestions.
>
> My chief interest right now is not genealogy or programming. It is
> actually astrological research, which has progressed to the stage of
> processing genealogical data, but currently there is no way any data
> ~can~ be processed unless an inordinate amount of re-typing is done,
> and my experience with research has tlold me that it's not going to
> happen.
>
> Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
> following things:
>
> (1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
> longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
> module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use. There
are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic Names
[BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and places
can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal format.

There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed for
(I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is absolutely
no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
Legacy/TMG/anything else.

>
> (3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
> so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated from
> approximate dates.

Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text, that
allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but this
requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you store
accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field, they
have to be "married" to derive a chronology.

>
> (4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
> particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such things
> as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration, illnesses. In
> fact any event at all (literally).
>
> Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all the
> above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from gedcoms
> in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
> 'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few minutes
> to create the link between people and the standard (genealogy)
> Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in the family tree in
> the Events table.
> ------------
>
> When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event database
> already in this group's Files section. I've also had a look at the
> discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly interested in the
> whole topic of relational databases and people's events, it hasn't
> all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't understand the full
> capability of relational databases.

Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all data
"hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are all
constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other record
(or records).

>
> Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
> related to ONE event, although I feel
> that Steve Hayes is right and that genealogy needs what he's
> suggesting. The easiest way to be certain is for all of us to dream
> up examples of what might (or might not) be needed.

Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
connections!

>
> I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point of
> view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
> "event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of the
> birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a system
> that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes out to
> every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not visible or
> wanted until immediately prior to export.
>
> An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
> genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet with
> a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
> impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of my
> own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have been
> involved.
>
> Ray

The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
for collaboration.

Paul
Australia

>

Bob Melson

... While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also

Message 16 of 25
, Nov 18, 2006

0 Attachment

<snip>

> The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
> This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
> functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
> for collaboration.
>
> Paul
> Australia

While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also currently
suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure. This is
not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.

If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in rough form, of
the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward establishing
the amount of effort involved, IMO.

Bob Melson
Texas

Paul Blair

... currently ... This is ... rough form, of ... establishing ... Yep, that would be good. And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based,

>
> <snip>
> > The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
> > This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend software
> > functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an advantage
> > for collaboration.
> >
> > Paul
> > Australia
>
> While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for the
> programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it also

currently

> suffers the limitations of a purposely simple database structure.

This is

> not a disqualifier, certainly, but it would require refinement of that
> structure, and the php "code", to achieve the fine-grainedness required.
>
> If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in

rough form, of

> the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a long way toward

establishing

> the amount of effort involved, IMO.
>
> Bob Melson
> Texas
>

Yep, that would be good.

And an oversight on my part - Relatively Yours was events-based, IIRC.

Paul
Australia

Ray Murphy

... [....] ... RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only about $50 (AU) if it s bought as an extra with popular programs. I suppose any

>>>So I wonder if anyone knows of the existence of such a program,
>>>or if anyone else has felt the need for it.

>I've not heard of such a program...but Google is your friend!

>>>As I see it, it would be useful not just to genealogists and
>>>family historians, but to general historians, biographers and
>>>others.

>>>Has anyone felt the need for such a program? Can anyone else see
>>>that it might be useful?

>> [....]

>>>So this is really a half-baked idea and I'm hoping that someone
>>>will be willing to bake it.

>>> Steve Hayes

[....]

>>Ideally what I need is a modified genealogy program that does the
>>following things:

>>(1) Stores more detail about birth location, i.e. latitude and
>>longitudes and time zones (incl Daylight Saving) via a plug in
>>module called ACS Atlas, which handles most places in the world.

>ACS is a $200 product, which wouldn't encourage its broad use.
>There are other geographical databases (eg the US Board on Geographic
>Names [BGN]) that are free, if cumbersome. Google Maps are free, and
>places can be "spotted" for lat/long in traditional and decimal
>format.

RM: Yes, ACS is too expensive to buy as an extra, but it is only
about $50 (AU) if it's bought as an extra with popular programs.
I suppose any type of 'atlas' (gazetteer) could be used - including
self-populating ones that are filled in on the fly as required. Users
would only need to select their default atlas in a listbox, but
they could also have their own special atlas that they could
crank-up for those old or tiny place names in their own state which
included the abbreviations that were commonly used. High precision
coordinates wouldn't be needed for genealogy.

It wouldn't matter what format was used by a gazetteer to input
geographic coordinates - DDMMSS or DD,MM or DD (decimal) if the
program knew which style the gazetteers used. In any case the
genealogy program developers could easily settle on a visible (and
printable) format that was most popular amongst users.

>There is no GEDCOM standard for defining places - it was proposed
>for (I think) 5.5, which never made it to finality. So there is
>absolutely no standard way to code a conversion utility from , eg
>Legacy/TMG/anything else.

RM: I've found in the work I'm doing that 3 fields are suitable for
most places, but India really needs 4 - with the last field being
"Country".
Unfortunately the U.S. is out of kilter with the rest of the world
in relation to place names and expects everyone to memorise their
state name abbreviations. I found that it was easy enough to
overcome that in a program by shifting the last "Place" (say CA or
GA) back one field and then placing "U.S." in the Country field.
I think that strictly speaking some American states ARE actually
countries, but that's another story.

RM: Yes, events mostly, but it could be used for anything at all.
For example personal details or characteristics could also be
entered and automatically placed with "events" (using the birth date
as the artificial event date) so they could be exported. That could
include family health problems and cause of death. With such a system
all (recorded) cases of gout or depression etc could easily be found.

>>(3) Stores (suitable) dates in an extra column in DATE format,
>>so that sorting is possible and accurate dates can be separated
>>from approximate dates.

>Legacy uses MS Access, and has a way of storing dates as text,
>that allows eg Abt 1948 to fit between 1.1.1947 and 1.1.1949 - but
>this requires quite a bit of coding to make it work. Even if you
>store accurate dates in one field and "about" dates in another field,
>they have to be "married" to derive a chronology.

RM: One date field could feed the other. The default could be real
dates, but each time an "illegal date" was entered (such as Abt
1926) the program could say "Press the option button to allow the
insertion of an approximate date". Such a system could help mimimise
errors in day-of-year (and year) for places that did not adopt the
Gregorian calendar. (It took 350 years from 1582 for the whole world
to accept it but many people are not aware of it). I'd imagine that
in some cases genealogists are scratching their heads and wondering
how a certain person could have been born in a certain year when they
have alternative documentary evidence that indicates otherwise.

>>(4) Allows the retrieval and export of all Names + Events of a
>>particular category, (selected from a Listbox) including such
>>things as marriage, engagement, childbirth, death, migration,
>>illnesses. In fact any event at all (literally).

>>Currently I'm developing a (non-genealogy) program that does all
>>the above things for 600 categories, but it cannot import from
>>gedcoms in a meaningful way yet, so I'm trying to make an MS Access
>>'intermediate' program to bridge the gap. It only took a few
>>minutes to create the link between people and the
>>standard(genealogy)Events, but I need to somehow place *people* in
>>the family tree in the Events table.
>> ------------

>>When I arrived here I saw that there was an MS Access event
>>database already in this group's Files section. I've also had a
>>look at the discussion about it, and even though I'm avidly
>>interested in the whole topic of relational databases and people's
>>events, it hasn't all sunk in fully yet - partly because I don't
>>understand the full capability of relational databases.

>Again, Legacy is Access. Their structure, briefly, is that all
>data "hangs" from individual records. Marriages, families, events are
>all constructed on an "individual" record matched with some other
>record (or records).

RM: I'm not familiar with Legacy, but it seems that genealogy
programs are designed to go back only one generation when looking for
anything. For example I doubt if they can bring together sets of two
people who are 4 generations apart.

>>Besides that I'm still trying to see how lots of people can be
>>related to ONE event, although I feel that Steve Hayes is right and
>>that genealogy needs what he's suggesting. The easiest way to be
>>certain is for all of us to dream up examples of what might (or
>>might not) be needed.

>Think of a wedding with 100 guests. There's an event with lots of
>connections!

RM: Yes, the connections are there alright for weddings, but would
99% of people really have any use for an extra line of type which
says "Mrs Broadbent attended Christine O'Hara's wedding 04.04.1907"?

>>I can certainly see the value of it from my own (research) point
>>of view - where I see each person as the technical equivalent of an
>>"event". In my own case if I entered the latitude & longitude of
>>the birthplace of a g.g.g.grandfather, I'd know that with such a
>>system that Steve is promoting, that information effectively goes
>>out to every ancestor or descendant, although it's obviously not
>>visible or wanted until immediately prior to export.

>>An extremely good reason for adding a decent Events module to
>>genealogy programs is that it will enable everyone on the planet
>>with a PC to contribute towards genetic research on a scale that is
>>impossible at the moment. The latitude & longitude preference (of
>>my own) would also help geneticists to easily see what regions have
>>been involved.

>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
>advantage for collaboration.

RM: It sounds interesting, although I have no concept yet of how the
program might work for ordinary people.

> Paul
> Australia

Ray

Ray Murphy

... RM: It s a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever become standard

><snip>
>>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
>>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
>>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
>>advantage for collaboration.

>>Paul
>>Australia

>While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
>the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
>also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
>database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
>would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
>achieve the fine-grainedness required.

>If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
>rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
>long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.

> Bob Melson
> Texas

RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
notable characteristics that exist in families.

I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
now for all I know.

It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
into lots of programs.

Ray

Paul Blair

... Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way that allows

>
> --- In gensoft@yahoogroups.com, Bob Melson <melsonr@> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
> >>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
> >>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
> >>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
> >>advantage for collaboration.
>
> >>Paul
> >>Australia
>
> >While I agree that phpGedView is sufficiently flexible to allow for
> >the programming of most, if not all, of the suggested features, it
> >also currently suffers the limitations of a purposely simple
> >database structure. This is not a disqualifier, certainly, but it
> >would require refinement of that structure, and the php "code", to
> >achieve the fine-grainedness required.
>
> >If I might make a suggestion, I'd like to see a layout, even in
> >rough form, of the various DB tables/files envisioned - that'd go a
> >long way toward establishing the amount of effort involved, IMO.
>
> > Bob Melson
> > Texas
>
> RM: It's a bit hard to bring it all together until we see what sort
> of events are worth recording. Obviously there are too many to ever
> become standard gedcom categories, so the way to go would be to use
> the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
> Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and that
> could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death or
> notable characteristics that exist in families.
>
> I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could bypass
> gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be possible
> now for all I know.
>
> It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra events"
> into lots of programs.
>
> Ray
>

Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
companies who like things the way they are....

> > the existing Events system but with ONE extra category - "User
> > Event". That would allow users to enter any type of event, and

that

> > could also include such things as illnesses and causes of death

or

> > notable characteristics that exist in families.
> >
> > I suppose that programs that didn't use "extra events" could

bypass

> > gedcom lines that had a special prefix for them. That may be

possible

> > now for all I know.
> >
> > It seems to me that the first step should be to get "extra

events"

> > into lots of programs.
> >
> > Ray
> >
>
>Well, you can do that now in Legacy 6, maybe others. It has an events
>arrangement (View|Master Lists|Event Definition) which works in a way
>that allows people to be attached to events. They can be
>included/excluded in reports. A start? :-)

RM: Yes, I'll get a copy of Legacy soon.

>I think that if you are looking for the reverse (events attached to
>people) you would run into serious opposition from the commercial
>companies who like things the way they are....

RM: When it comes to generating csv files of people paired-up with
particular events, there's no need to wait for a change in the
industry that may never come. All we need is an intermediate program
which imports gedcoms and reassembles a few things including
converting useable dates into a separate column which uses the Date
format.

I started doing that a few days ago with MS Access without any
problems, but I can't figure out how to move spouses and their birth
dates over to the Events table because they are only reference
numbers. When that's done, all gedcoms can be used to extract "event"
information that might be useful for various types of research.

The tricky part might be finding a way to move ancestors and
descendants over to the "events" table.

The final output that I'm getting (suitable for infinite filtering in
a separate program) is a csv file which uses an "apostrophe s" after
a person's name and their event.

>The broadest genie software "church" I can think of is PhpGedView.
>This is open source, and contributors add modules that extend
>software functionality. Its use is server based, which is quite an
>advantage for collaboration.

>Paul
>Australia

RM: The online genealogy project looks fascinating, and thousands will
no doubt join up, but I'm not one of them because I cannot find the
download button - after running around in circles about 10 times :-(

Ray

Bob Melson

[ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] ... Ray, Try: http://phpgedview.sourceforge.net About half way down the left margin is a link to Download ,

About half way down the left margin is a link to "Download", which will
take you to another page where there are instructions on how to download
phpGedView from the sourceforge site. If that is not successful, I'll
happily send a zipped copy of the latest version to your email address - but
don't want to do that unless you agree.