The study also showed significant differences in the ages participants reported when asked how old they were when they became sexually active.

Women and men reported about the same age when they were told they could be linked to their responses, 16.8 and 16.2 years old, respectively.

When the results were anonymous, however, there was a "real flip-flop," Miss Fisher said.

Men reported an average age of 17, while women reported an age of 15.8 years old.

"Females mature a couple years faster than males at puberty," Miss Fisher said. "It makes sense to me where females become sexually active faster. Typically, the female is ready for some kind of relationship before the typical male."

When hooked up to the bogus lie detector, males reported that they had been 16.3 years old when they became sexually active and females reported they had been 16.5 years old.

The study also showed significant differences in the ages participants reported when asked how old they were when they became sexually active.

Women and men reported about the same age when they were told they could be linked to their responses, 16.8 and 16.2 years old, respectively.

When the results were anonymous, however, there was a "real flip-flop," Miss Fisher said.

Men reported an average age of 17, while women reported an age of 15.8 years old.

"Females mature a couple years faster than males at puberty," Miss Fisher said. "It makes sense to me where females become sexually active faster. Typically, the female is ready for some kind of relationship before the typical male."

When hooked up to the bogus lie detector, males reported that they had been 16.3 years old when they became sexually active and females reported they had been 16.5 years old.

I'm never gonna find a virgin.....

I agree with you. It is pretty despairing these days. It forces the one to ask the question why be a virgin your in all likelihood your future spouse probably won't be one?

I agree with you. It is pretty despairing these days. It forces the one to ask the question why be a virgin your in all likelihood your future spouse probably won't be one?

Well, for me it's not much of a choice anyway, if you know what I mean. But I know what you're saying.

However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone. Man, I have so much to look forward to.....

oh well, just another reason why I should give myself entirely to the syringe.

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord. I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think? Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement, I would think.Nilus

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord. I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think? Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement, I would think.Nilus

I don't think you understand. I could explain it further but then again that is probably a waste of time since many, especially in the Orthodox church, have no idea what it is like to be a single person in today's world.

I know what it is like, and I also think the churches attitude towards sex is in serious need of being re thought out. In Biblical times puberty and social independence came around the same time, now the time difference gets greater and greater, as one graduates from college around 21 that leaves almost 10 years of hormones a raging, with no satisfaction. I am not a stick in the mud when it comes to this. The reason I found for myself was it is utterly wrong to use people for my own gratification. Sure a night in the sack seems good, but where is love in that, where is committment, where is dying to self, nowhere, when it means a night of not burning in lust. I grew up in the free love era of the 60's and 70's so these issues are not foreign to me.Nilus

Perhaps the church's position needs to be re-thought. I doubt that is going to happen anytime soon. We are too busy fighting our jurisdictional wars and other stupid crap. I was only lamenting(along with Plutonas) about the chances of meeting someone who has not had 12 sexual partners. Virginity seems to be out of fashion. What is be the purpose of being pure? Because God says so? I mean I think I know why. How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?

I am sure there are women who feel the same way, but the issue is finding them. And for myself the longer you wait to get married, the chances of finding an innocent woman gets less and less, and the baggage they carry and we carry gets more and more. There is a reason marriage is called martyrdom. Nilus

How can someone who has not had premarital sex get married and build intimacy with a spouse who has slept around?

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins. I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin. However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship. Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with. Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.

Let me ask you: say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age). You found someone else who was also widowed. Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?

I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team. Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around. But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.

I would think the reason for sexual chastity is not if one's spouse is going to be a virgin, but that it is a commandment of the Lord.

I don't care whether it is a commandment of the Lord or not. Even if Orthodoxy was extremely liberal when it came to sex I still would seek out a virgin because it is important to me personally.

But it's a shame how some religious people are willing to blindly accept dogma without first understanding the reasoning behind it. And that's just ignorance, not faith.

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I also think a gynecological examine is a bit much don't you think? Almost in the same category as a prenuptial agreement, I would think.

Whoever said anything about a gynecological examination? If someone needs a gynecological exam to figure out if his fiancee is a a virgin or not then it's quite obvious that there are already some major problems in the relationship -- namely regarding trust.

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins. I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin. However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship. er think about the other people we were with. Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.

You obviously weren't paying attention to what the man said. He asked how it could ever be possible for a virgin and non-virgin to find some sort of intimacy between each other -- not whether two non-virgins could. The two situations are completely different from one another and, as such, everything you said is rendered moot.

The idea that women are either purely virginal or whores is not consistent with Orthodoxy. Everyone makes mistakes. I think it is a cultural thing that thanfully is dying out.

Chastity is a state of mind. If someone had sex before but regretted it and then lives chastely, the fact of previous sexual experiene will mean nothing to the current relationship.

Plutonas, in all seriousness, are men either purely chaste or irredeamable man-whores also? There usually is a double standard about this.

That you say no matter how much you love someone you wouldn't marry them if they were a non-virgin either 1) you would have fallen in love with someone you knew you could not marry which would mean you had spent lots of time with them which would have been irresponsible given your knowing you couldn't marry them or 2) you have not really experienced the fullness of love. I know once I fell in love with my now-wife, nothing could stop me from being with her. I was acting stupid so she broke up with me for awhile before marriage and she ended up dating another guy. You know what though, I never asked her about that fellow because I don't care as long as I got her back, because being without her was hell. She obviously agreed cuz she dumped that dude and we were back together and married in 8 months.

The view that women are either purely virginal or irredeemable whores probably isn't consistent with Orthodoxy. But it's consistent with my own world-view and that's all that matters to me. As for it being a "cultural phenomena", it's not -- at least for me anyway.

Maybe you're right in saying that a person who regrets losing their virginity will view the past sexual experience as meaningless but nevertheless the experience WILL have effected their lives and way of thinking in some way -- hence their purity, from their previous state, in some form, has been lost.

Plus, something just doesn't sit right with me knowing that my hypothetical wife could have potentially performed fellatio and been anally penetrated by dozens of guys. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like that thought....

As for men who sleep around with lots of women -- since I'm not going to marry any of them, it's not exactly a "pressing question" for me but women certainly have the right to expect their spouses to be virgins if they have remained virgins themselves.

Now as for your appraisal of me, it fails to take into account a third possibility: that I was with a woman who had assured me was a virgin, fell in love with her, and then she broke the news that she had just lied to me (and after reading the news article above, it's not exactly an implausible thing to happen, is it?). Now if I had married this woman, and she had broken this news to me after the marriage (which wouldn't be below a woman to do), I would certainly be in my rights to demand a divorce.

Yes, the third could have happened and I should have accounted for it. Nevertheless, I know plenty of women who only had sex with one guy not dozens.

You have a right to your own feelings and preferences but I just think I detect a view of women that is not positive. If you were lied to by a previous woman then that would probably be understandable.

I will pray that you find a nice woman who will be everything you need, spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

I respect the fact that you do not hold a double standard like many, at least, in that you say a woman should expect the same from her partner.

plutonas,In case you didn't know already, using a tampon will eliminate part of the "evidence" of virginity. I know it sounds difficult, but you may want to rethink your position on the virginity requirement for marriage (it's difficult for me as well!).

Anastasios,A little too much info. Don't care about the details.

Everyone,Am I inferring something wrong, or is someone saying that it is an Orthodox requirement to be a virgin before marriage (well, I know required, I'm just saying practically speaking - as in no priest will marry you). I've never heard of this happening.

When my husband I married 5 years ago, neither one of us were virgins. I know that at the time I married I wished that I had remained a virgin. However, the fact that we were not virgins has not kept us from building a wonderful, intimate relationship. Neither one of us ever think about the other people we were with. Now, it truly seems like I was never with anyone else.

As Plutonas said, I was asking about how a virgin and a non-virgin can build sexual intimacy in a marriage. Anyway, you don't seem to be endorsing virginity, by that you are not totally bummed about not being a virgin on your wedding day.

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Let me ask you: say you married and were then widowed (maybe at a relatively young age). You found someone else who was also widowed. Could you not marry and build an intimate relationship with that new spouse simply because they had slept with someone else?

If I was a widower, I don't think I would re-marry. Depending on the situation I would consider monasticism.

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I realize there is a difference between a girl who has been with one or two other guys and a girl who's been with the whole football team. Most of my friends, though not virigns, had not been with a lot of guys; I don't think it would be too hard to find a girl like that.

I'm sorry but I am sure that the Orthodox Church and God himself doesn't see it that way. You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

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I am not saying that there is anything wrong with trying to find someone who is a virgin; in fact, I think it's a good thing that you want to find someone who hasn't slept around. But I just wanted to say that I don't think it's impossible to build an intimate relationship with someone who is not a virgin.

I guess Plutonas and I are two aliens from another planet on this whole entire issue. I realize we live in a more sexually liberated time and it is sad. So much for being chaste up to your marriage, might as well go out and get some experience with one or two others. This whole thread is just plain despairing.

By the way, I believe men should be virgins too until their wedding day, but then again given this thread, why bother being a virgin anymore :'(

I regret that I cannot tell you from personal experience whether intimacy between a non-virgin and a virgin is possible. I can, however, report that close friends I have, who fit that particular scenario, have found intimacy not only possible, but a blessed fact.

I'm glad Frobisher pointed out the Saint whose feast day it is today. Because your personal views--insofar as you have expressed them and I have understood them--seem at such variance with Church teaching.

Yes, the Church obligates us to marital purity (including physical virginity). And you are right to demand that high standard of yourself and of the future woman you want to be your wife.

But you seem to come from a viewpoint that views the consequences of sexual sin as pragmatically irredeemable. That is to say, it appears that you think one can be forgiven, but in terms of the daily work of intimacy, it's essentially over if physical purity has been lost.

This does not seem to me to be consonant with the teaching of the Church on repentance and theosis. This is not to say that God would somehow miraculously restore the physical components of virginity. But it is to say that the ontological aspects of purity may indeed are restored through confession, repentance and askesis.

I guess what I'm trying to express is don't worry. Sure it's personally important to you to maintain and to marry someone who also has mainted sexual purity. And I'd be a fool to tell you to "get real" and bring your ideals down to modern reality. (And I'd be a teacher of false doctrine.) But there are plenty of virginal marriages that don't last because of many other factors, and plenty of non-virginal marriages (one or both partners) that do last.

In short, if a girl you find attractive is one with whom you can worship, pray and play, and with whom you have "fallen in love" it would not doom your relationship if she (or, perhaps you) were to have failed. The greatest of whores have become saints, after all, men and women.

You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.

WOW! Of course there is a difference! God recognizes degrees of sin! A woman or man who has sex with one person before marriage versus one who goes around screwing a football team is a big difference!!!

It is not pathetic, it is the way life is in this screwed up modern world. People make mistakes. If Jesus can look past them so can you! St Theodora was bascially a whore but St. Justinian married her and they found true love.

The reason YOU should remain a virgin is because YOU know it is wrong. But life is NOT black and white. You are basically asking "oh well if everyone else is doing it so shouldn't I?"

But you seem to come from a viewpoint that views the consequences of sexual sin as pragmatically irredeemable. That is to say, it appears that you think one can be forgiven, but in terms of the daily work of intimacy, it's essentially over if physical purity has been lost.

Here is the parable of the locket and where locket is , substitute sex.A boy buys a locket for his girlfriend. They break up. Every time he has a girlfriend and has to get a gift, he can think of no better gift than that locket. When he gets married and goes to buy a gift for his bride, he finds himself looking at the same locket. Although he wants to get something else, that is the most perfect gift he can think of, so he gets it. As he puts it around her neck, he cannot help but remember every girl he ever gave the locket to.

Obviously everytime you have sex with someone you are giving a piece of yourself away.

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I guess what I'm trying to express is don't worry.

It is something to worry about when it is important to one personally.

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But there are plenty of virginal marriages that don't last because of many other factors, and plenty of non-virginal marriages (one or both partners) that do last.

In short, if a girl you find attractive is one with whom you can worship, pray and play, and with whom you have "fallen in love" it would not doom your relationship if she (or, perhaps you) were to have failed.

CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand. By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.

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The greatest of whores have become saints, after all, men and women.

True, but what are the chances of finding someone who is like that? Seriously my friend especially in this era of human history.

By the way, I believe men should be virgins too until their wedding day, but then again given this thread, why bother being a virgin anymore :'(

No, No, No -- I am saying that the person made a mistake BEFORE they understood that it was a sin.

As an Orthodox Christian you MUST forgive that person if they truly repent. And if you choose to hold it against them as the ONLY reason you would not MARRY them, then you have NOT truly forgiven them.

I bet 99.999% of us are guilty of sexual sins. We are all human and that's why God became man. St. Basil the Great is quoted in the Philokalia (Vol. 1) saying, "I have known not woman, yet I am not a virgin."

We are to be made into a new creation and not just cling to the old. Again, I think if you are struggling with this stuff and accusing others of things, then you are clinging too hard. The pharisees who wanted to stone the harlot may not have done anything for 40 years, but they are the ones going to hell for judging that woman whom Jesus loved.

Maybe if you assume lack of virginity, then if you later found out she was a virgin would make more sense. It comes down to trust, and fretting about it is not going to cause it to go away. I would think virginity is least of one's worries in getting married, the bigger question is do you get along, do you look at problems from the same sort of value systems, etc. For any marriage to work, forgiveness is a must, and if you can not forgive a woman who has had sex in the past, long before she knew you, then maybe you should consider not getting married at all, and go to a monastery.Nilus

OK you basically ask why. So if this is a really big issue for you then pray that God will find you a virgin specifically.

I am not going to presume to tell you HOW to do go about it as we have had this discussion before (ie lack of available women for young Orthodox men) but I am just saying that God will provide if it is his will.

anastasios, thank you sir! I'd do the same for you, but you're already married as you mentioned previously.

Elisha, like I told nilus, who ever said anything about gynecological examinations and the like??? If there didn't exist enough trust in the relationship for one partner to believe what the other said, what good would a physical test do?

sinjinsmythe, along with completely agreeing on the points you made I want to also say that I laughed out loud when I read that comment you made about us being aliens from another planet

The funny thing is that this hasn't been the only thread where me and you have been "singled out" in our opinions, as it were. We'll always be misunderstood it seems...

CDHealy, I do understand what you're saying about the "ontological aspects of purity" being restored through through confession, repentance, and askesis but even so I still could not forgive the loss of virginity even if God did. For me this is a deeply personal thing which symbolizes more, and goes far beyond, than just a question of an individual's purity. It has a lot to do with the things that form the very basis of my world-view...

Personally, I'd much rather be alone than in wedlock to someone who refused to wait for me, like I did for them.

TomS, what are you saying? That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with? That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife? Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?

And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing. She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well. It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it.

Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.

As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate. Let me be judged and let me be damned even, if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.

My Gosh...With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows? (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both). You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue??? People make mistakes, that's the way it is. You remember, a good part of the Church's teaching is about lost sheep, and how Christ got them back! The whole concept of confession is to make yourself pure again. If you honestly, whole-heartedly, and humbly confessed your sins, then when you walk out of confession, your are pure until you sin again. If both marriage partners are virgins, that's great, good for them! Honestly, I know that is the way it's supposed to be. But, I know plenty of people (my close family members included) who either were sexually active before marriage, or married somebody who was. As yet, most of them are doing alright, and those who are having problems aren't having problems because one or both went to the marriage bed not a virgin. Before people jump down my throat and say I'm advocating sexual activity, I'd like to say I AM NOT!!! However, I see the sin of not forgiving, knowingly condemning someone who is/was sexually active far greater than the sin of the person your not forgiving.And, before anyone starts wondering, YES, <<gasp>> I am a virgin.(See, there are Orthodox girls who are still virgins out there )Gotta go,Ania

« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 04:36:15 PM by ania »

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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Re-read my post. I think I very clearly stated I do not condone losing one's virginity. Also, note the content of Plutonas' posts. He has stated he couldn't forgive even if God could. This is an extremely dangerous state of heart. (Cf. our Lord's words on the matter.) My comment about "not worrying" was an attempt to bring him back from the edge of danger.

CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand. By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.

I am married, and expecting our first child in a matter of days. I will not go into the details of my and my spouse's sexual histories, but suffice it to say, the loss of sexual purity/virginity was something with which we had to deal. So I know from personal experience the loss of virginity, would not doom your relationship with your future spouse. Yes, there would be significant effects through which you both would have to work, but you would not be doomed. And once again, clearly now and for the record: I DO NOT CONDONE LOSING ONE'S VIRGINITY.

This discussion is so very hypothetical. Obviously it matters if the person whom you are planning to marry gives signs that they are likely to be unfaithful. But that's the point. It is the person. If you are not courting, then it's al rather moot. If you are courting, then it is that person who must be addressed and loved, and if all you can do is evaluate him/her on the basis of virginity, you fail to forgive, and you serve yourself, not the other.

TomS, what are you saying? That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with? That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife? Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?

If you want to take it to that extreme, then YES, that is exactly what I am saying, because you are judging that person based upon who they were BEFORE. That is no longer relevant, that is unless you reject the teachings of the Church.

And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing. She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well. It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it. Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.

What is wrong with saying that? Am I not correct? Stop taking YOUR current values system and trying to apply it her past. IT IS NOT RELEVANT!

But she IS taking responibility for them -- that is why she has asked for forgiveness.

As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate. Let me be judged and let me be damned even

Oh man you guys. A sin is a sin. If a woman falls, and if a man falls, they repent and if they are truly repentant God will forgive them. Gluttony is a sin. How many of you have confessed gluttony? Pride? Would I not marry someone because they have a tendency to be prideful? Or they have been gluttoness one a particular Thanksgiving? Were you truly sorry for what you did? Then you are forgiven. We all fall into sin one way or another, and it is prideful and rude of you guys to criticize the females out there that have fallen into sin and are TRULY repentant. It is just plain rude and prideful.

On that note - what about St. Mary of Egypt?? She was a PROSTITUTE!!!!!! Heck with a whole football team! She repented! She is now a saint!!!! A greatly revered saint!!Now, I want to know how many of you guys wouldn't want to marry her!! Because she slept with some people. She repented!!!!!!!!! She is a saint!!!! How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.

enough said.

and, like ania (well-said in your post, btw) I am not promoting promiscuity but I am promoting repentance and forgiveness. And yes, I am still a virgin.

Would you be offended if I gave a very hearty, one-time Protestant "AMEN!"?

I wanted to keep my post/replies short, but the desert fathers have always indicated a close relationship between gluttony and lust. And it would seem our Lord had a thing or two to say about lust. How many of us men have remained physical virgins while consuming all sorts of pornography (both "soft" as in the Victoria Secrets show on television--and the more disgusting "hard core")? Seems to me to be a big disconnect. This is not to say that it's easy for guys to maintain purity of mind in our U. S. culture given the trend in women's fashions (bare midriffs, bare shoulders, low-cut jeans which intentionally reveal underwear selection--need I go on?). I'm not blaming women. God knows we men should take Job's vow and make a covenant with our eyes.

It just blows me away that one on issue, the consensus of the forum was to "liberalize" Church/Scriptural strictures on intimate partnerships with non-Christians (which I was against), yet on this issue, the consensus seems to be "no virginity, no wife, no forgiveness." Sheesh.

and if, as someone said, God might forgive someone for falling into sin with a man, but YOU (whoever said it) won't then-

do you view St. Mary of Egypt as a saint? Seeing that you can't forgive her for her promiscuity, she must not be a saint in your eyes?

How can anyone say they cannot forgive something that God forgives? It is not up to us to judge other people's acts... and if God forgives, we have NO CHOICE but to forgive also. If it is a personal choice to not marry someone who is not a virgin, then so be it. But do not word it that you don't forgive that person. That is VERY dangerous.

How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.

The chances of someone becoming a saint are very, very slim.

but for you to judge beforehand is unfair. What are the chances that you would have guessed St. Mary of Egypt would become a saint? How can you condemn women who have fallen when you dont know their level of repentance? And even if a woman might not be a saint, who is to say she won't enter heaven? Or help you with your salvation? If you meet the right woman, certain things won't matter.

My Gosh...With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows? (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both). You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue???

Who ever said that virginity was the ONLY thing we were expecting??? Some of you really make WAY too many assumptions about what was said.... If I was looking for a virgin and nothing else I'd go to Saudi Arabia, or Africa, or India and find a wife. Obviously that isn't the case.

I completely agree with you Tom. There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this thread. Sexual sins are certainly not the only sins. As long as someone is repentant and has reformed their lives, their past should not be an issue IMO.