This is really nice. When music becomes acculturated it has a creative vitality. I think that folk music can be appreciated in different contexts. First, new elements can be introduced to enhance it or it can remain without any adornment whatever. Folk music really is a product of acculturation, musical blending of different forms. There is no pure folk music as there is no pure race.

There comes a point in a musical performance when the creativity that is added to basic folk music in the form of a tasteful arrangement (a subjective opinion of course) enhances the performance.

There is something to be said for the simplicity (not simplistic) of folk music unadorned by an arrangement added to it as well.

When you listen to enough folk music you can distinguish between the basic form of it from the added arrangements.

I think I see Kenny Aronoff on Drums!! He has played with Richard Thompson and the guy with the broken guitar - Pot Head?? Yes - Willie Nelson!! So it must be Folk Music..... My niece went out with Kenny's twin brother and I once cooked Christmas dinner for his parents!!

I found a radio station when I was driving through northern NY state and above it in Quebec. It was indigenous people's music station. Some traditional music, but quite a bit of modern music based on traditional styes. Mirabal is a bit slick, but it's the same general idea.

celtic woman is a pop version of traqditional stuff. there's nothing wrong with that. they do some fine gaelic singing on occasion.

this guy does the equivalent for taos natives. i wouldn't buy the album but i see nothing wrong. and those hats are quite common in the southwest ans mexico--it's kind of ethno centric to take a pot shot at others cultures hats.

"One of the problems of being old is" becoming old and still not knowing what folk/Folk is. I've given up reading what "comes up again and again and again and again etc." and come to the conclusion I'm never going to find out. When the word 'folk (music)' was first coined, it applied to a specific ideal, the word is now redundant and to keep applying it the the multi genre of modern adaptation of music is totaly inept.

What is Folk Music? This is... Oh no it isn't Oh yes it is Oh no it isn't Oh yes it is Oh no it isn't Oh yes it is

Everyone is saying, in the words of the songs, "Hooray for our side", ("same as it ever was.") I liked it. It looked good, the band was tight, the melody was memorable, and the singing was pleasant to hear. I don't care what genre it was. It was a good song, well played. I liked it. Thanks Lizzie. Cheers Dave

Ah, but you see my folk music moves forward with The People...it is constantly changing, despite the roots still growing all the way through it...

English 'folk' music is wrapped in aspic, stuck in a museum and guarded by Folk Riot Police who feel themselves to be The 99%, when in actual fact, they are merely the 1%

Show of Hands, Dave?

yeah, sure, ask them about me, for once, in a land far away, **someone** used to write about them, get masses of others talking about them too...

Now.......?

But I'm still waiting for you guys to start up about them, as you're the New Followers of them. And meanwhile, whilst you lot are being silent, I'm still putting their music on the Occupy Wall Street/Canada/Britain/The White House Facebook pages......

English 'folk' music is wrapped in aspic, stuck in a museum and guarded by Folk Riot Police

I don't know when you last went out, Lizzie, and had a listen to what's around the clubs these days. It's not the music that stuck in a museum - the old songs are as lovely as they ever were - and it's all down to the way in which they placed in front of the audience and to the skill of the performer.

I suppose I've heard "A Blacksmith Courted Me", in its various incarnations, by a number of people over the years. I didn't think another version of it could tempt me - and then I heard Chris Bartram do it recently on the "New Midsummer's Day" CD. No accompaniment, just Chris's beautiful, unaffected, direct delivery. Beautiful and timeless.

The said CD, by the way, contains some lovely Shropshire tunes dug out by Neil Brookes and performed by Neil, Chris and Tony Weatherall. The "old stuff" is still evolving, still producing lovely music for those that want to discover it.

Mirabal is a great exponent - of what? Traditional native American music dolled up with modern gear to feel contemporary. Nostalgia. Top drawer nostalgia, but nostalgia all the same, no less than 'finger-in-the-ear folk'. Mirabal's music's only novelty is its comparative rarity.

Did you bother to look at the link above? The one just below your last post?

He is bringing young American Indian people BACK to their culture and bringing it out to others..

You have a problem with this?

Sometimes he rocks it up, sometimes he doesn't.

I think you'll find The Duncan McFarlane Band do exactly the same thing, yes, even using traditional songs..and they ROCK! I still regard their gig in the main Ham Marquee at Sidmouth's first 'Folk Week' (of 2005, that is, not the ones back in 1876)..as being one of the BEST gigs I've ever seen.

Keep your hair shirt on, Lizzie. I just bothered to look at the link and again, I see it as a very accomplished rendition of traditional music in an accessible, modern style. My 'problem', as you seem to perceive my use of my critical faculties, is that traditional music done in a reverential, sanitised and pretentious way (and by that I mean pretending to be more significant than it is) completely fails to peel my banana. It's like those drum dances the Queen has to sit through. If they were real, they'd run her out of the country she was visiting.

I think you'll find The Duncan McFarlane Band do exactly the same thing, yes, even using traditional songs..and they ROCK! I still regard their gig in the main Ham Marquee at Sidmouth's first 'Folk Week' (of 2005, that is, not the ones back in 1876)..as being one of the BEST gigs I've ever seen.

Fantastic Lizzie, I do so agree. Fantastic band. One of the best gigs I have seen too.

Bringing young people into folk music - where ever they - are that is the important thing.

It would be nice if there were available versions of Native American music somewhere in between primary ethnographic recordings (which aren't all that available anyway) and these tacky Celtic-Women-in-feathers arrangements (usually with icky electronic keyboard work - this one is a bit more tasteful with the Michael Nyman style string figuration, but it's still basically a rock video with a few token fragments of Native American melodic material). I can see why there might be reasons that no such versions exist, but there should be more openings for intelligently arranged NA music now than before.

Here's a lullaby from a completely different culture (Sephardic Jewish, sung in Ladino) to give an idea of what I have in mind. It is an arranged setting - there's a melody instrument and a drone - but by and large the voice is left to carry the song on its own, and there's no intrusive crap from the Western music biz added to make it more "commercial".

Obviously you've not been to a Duncan McFarlane Band gig, the 'electric' version? If you had, Shimmy, you'd not even have to ask the question...

Suffice to say, they absolutely ROCK! And I've never seen a room so *alive* with people of all ages enjoying themselves..and yes, I was struck at how many young people there were in that room...GREAT to see the music reaching a new audience..

Because the old farts in folk (great name for a folk compilation)are allowing the music to become stale and unpalatable to alot of younger people.....that's why...there are exceptions to the rule, but, then again, there always are. the echoes of the shouts at Newport 1965 and at the release of Liege & Lief in 1969 are still there....

Anybody know where to find a sound or video recording on the web of a version of that Taos Indian song as a mother sang it, or might have sung it?

(Liege and Lief has no echoes for me - all I know is it was an English folk rock album which I think has a white cover. I could never have named a single track on it, nor could I ever have named a single song Dylan was doing at that Newport gig. I'm just not an old enough fart to have the sort of nostalgia it takes to care about that genre).

Had a look at the OPs first video clip. Bland but inoffensive. Not sure that the dancing child added much (should have been in bed!) How relevant it was to indiginous music, I don't know...But it was OK. Wouldn't bother to go and see them though.

'The Dancing Child' is Robert's daughter, so she actually added a great deal, being The Next Generation, being there to not only listen to her father singing the songs of his Grandmother, but to take part in her own way, dancing the dances of her Ancestors.

"....Raised traditionally by his mother and grandparents on the pueblo, and born in 1966, Mirabal spoke Tiwa at home and began making flutes at the age of 19. In school, he had learned how to play clarinet, saxophone, piano, and drums, but found his true musical voice in the traditional Native American flute. He met the renowned Native American flute player R. Carlos Nakai as a young man and was greatly inspired by him.

He moved to New York City, playing in a multicultural band made up of a Senegalese guitarist, a Cape Verdean drummer and Haitian keyboardist. There, Mirabal immersed himself in the sound of hip-hop, funk and R&B, which would inform his later trademark music.

He recorded an independent debut album in 1988, and went on to land a contract with Warner Western and later, Silver Wave Records. His first projects were generally focused on traditional music consisting of Native American flute and percussion. One of his early albums, entitled Land was originally composed for two Japanese avant-garde modern dancers Eiko and Koma, who choreographed a dance production inspired by their impressions of the land around Taos. Cedar and clay flutes, percussion, rattles, and traditional vocals were used throughout the album. Reynaldo Lujan, a percussionist who would go on to collaborate with Mirabal for over a decade, played on the album along with Mark Andes. Each song told a different story about the land around Taos Mountain. The acclaimed performance toured Japan, Europe and the U.S. and in 1992, Mirabal was given New York's Dance and Performance Bessie Award for the score.

In 1996, Mirabal collaborated with Grammy Award-winning Native American singer-songwriter Bill Miller on an album Native Suite-Chants: Dances and the Remembered Earth. The project was both experimental and traditional, featuring flute and percussion as well as Mohican pow-wow singing.

All these disparate interests and experiences led to the band Mirabal in 1995. Bassist Mark Andes, from the '60s band Spirit and '80s rock group Heart, joined Robert along with Reynaldo Lujan. In 1997, they released the groundbreaking album Mirabal that fused rock, funk, and other contemporary forms of music with traditional music, drawing on the legacy of other Native American pop/rock musicians (such as Buffy Sainte-Marie) but creating a unique sound that would set Mirabal apart and gain further mainstream attention.

Mirabal came to greater national prominence during his performance in PBS' 1998 musical dance production, Spirit: A Journey in Dance, Drum, and Song, for which he composed the soundtrack with traditional flute and percussion. Due to the popularity of the program, the network went on to produce a music/dance program centered entirely on Mirabal and his traditional/rock fusion music in 2002, entitled Music from a Painted Cave. The program and its corresponding CD release were enthusiastically received by mainstream audiences and became a benchmark world music album. He also collaborated with John Tesh for the acclaimed PBS One World TV special for the millennium in 2000, which showcased music from around the world.

Mirabal's In the Blood CD (2007) on Star Road Records (www.starroadrecords.com) was featured in New Mexico Magazine for their October 2007 issue. The reviewer wrote that "it is one of his finest to date." [1] His native state's tourism magazine lauded the CD's "lively danceable rhythms (that) should appeal to mainstream radio.... Mirabal (is) one of the trailblazers of tribal rock....[1]

Mirabal was also featured in a New Mexico Magazine story about Native American flute players.[2]

In 2011 Miribal joins the avant-garde string quartet ETHEL for a collaborative tour titled Music of the Sun. This is his second collaboration with the group, with whom he performed at BAM's Next Wave Festival in 2008.[3]....."

The long haired bloke is multi-talented, multi-instrumentalist Andrew Cronshaw. I have his CD 'On the shouldwers of the great bear' - Sorry, Lizzie, not your current pet ethnic project but a celebration of music from North Eastern Europe.

However. A quick search by anyone will show that the music of North Eastern Europe needs no westernisation -

If it needs 'rocking up' to be acceptable then the very essence of what you are trying to keep alive will be lost. There is nothing wrong with changing the song. Do what you like with it. But there is plenty of room for all and I don't see how this constant putting down of one form helps the other.

Had the pleasure of recording a live gig with Mr Cronshaw, in St Ethelburgas church in London. Complete with an Armenian Duduk player, Ian Blake on saxes, and Sanna Kuokio Sunnio from Finland on vocals. Doesn't get much better than that.

For your information, Duncan's band do acoustic too and of course, Duncan also does solo. All traditional stuff, and there was barely room to throw a cat, dog, or indeed an ant, at the gigs I've seen them play.

Obviously, you missed his band at Sidmouth Folk Week, the first one in 2005, after the International one had closed down. It was the last evening of a highly successful and emotional week for Sidmouth and Duncan's band were absolutely brilliant! Brought the house down, for all the right reasons.

>>>"Note to self: Avoid Duncan McFarlane Band at all costs!"<<<

Well, you're the one who'll lose out there, but...if that's how you feel, fair enough. Plenty of others out there to take your place, Shimmy.

Exactly. Which is why it is perfectly OK to also Rock It Up..imo, of course.

Absolutely 100% spot on Lizzie. So, if it is OK to rock it up for the kids, what is so wrong with a calmer version for us those of us who like both and why, in your opnion, is there no room for both?

DtG

BTW - I am not patronising anyone or anything. To patronise I would need to belive that I was better than someone else. I don't know how many times or in how many different ways I cam this - I am better than no-one. No-one is better than me.

"Absolutely 100% spot on Lizzie. So, if it is OK to rock it up for the kids, what is so wrong with a calmer version for us those of us who like both and why, in your opnion, is there no room for both?"

I started this thread with a link in to the music of Robert Mirabal. And out flew the 'orrible comments, as ever. I then put a link in to Robert playing on his own, just his flute and blow me down, take me down (oops, still got Duncan playing in my ears) no-one commented on that...

Instantly the rockier, more New Traditional stuff comes in, The Boring Ol' Farts have Zany Zimmer Attacks and start spewing out their spitefulness..and THAT is what gets up my nose....roll me down, take me down......

Robert's music is sensational, whether he's rockin' or not. Good music is GOOD music...

It doesn't have to sat under the pillow of Cecil Sharp for 38 months to be approved. There is OTHER folk music out there too...

It doesn't have to sat under the pillow of Cecil Sharp for 38 months to be approved. There is OTHER folk music out there too...

It doesn't have to be electrified, rocked up and westernised for 38 months to be approved. There is OTHER folk music out there too...

See what I mean? Sorry Lizzie, you have the right idea. You just seem to only apply in one direction. I fully understand you have issues with some people (including me) but why try to erradicate English Folk just because of your personal arguments.

And, yes, good music is GOOD music. But what is good is, more often than not, a matter of personal tastes. Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, accept that your version of good is better than mine?

Spot on once again Lizzie. So why suggest 'Occupying' English Folk Music (and presumably killing off traditional music)? Why suggest that this music is better, or more like 'folk' music than the music I like? Why start countless arguments just to justify why you believe that 'your' music is better than 'mine'?

I fully understand that you do not like 47 verses of the famous flower of serving man. But that famous flower has never, in my experience, stopped anyone from plugging a guitar in, singing what the hell they like or playing the Bolivian nose flute.

I am quite happy with this thread. Yes, this is to many people, Folk music. I enjoyed it but I am not going to get involved in labelling anything. But why do you want to start threads like 'Occupy English Folk' or any of the countelss other controversial titles we see?

By all means beat the drum (Indian or otherwise) for the music you are currently into. But in heavens name don't shove it up peoples noses and expect them not to sneeze. Very loudly! There is room here for all viewpoints. But extemists, of any nature, which I am afraid you come across as, should be viewed with extreme caution.

English Folk Music needs 'Occupying', as can be seen from the other thread...for I, like Al, and others, know musicians who worry themselves silly about upsetting 'those in charge'. You may like all music in your club, but many don't...and for years they've sniffed loudly at the mere mention of the word 'singer songwriter' deeming them almost 'second class musicians'...That needs to be spoken out about because it's wrong.

I don't know a single musician of my acquaintance who's worried themselves silly about upsetting 'those in charge'. Who are these sad souls? Did anyone ever call Bert Jansch a "second class musician"? Buy yourself a copy of John Kitkpatrick's tune book "Jump At The Sun" and have a look at the tunes in it. Every one a JK composition - not a traditional tune in sight. Who would dare call him a second class musician?

Every club, session and singaround is different, depending on the tastes of those who run them - no easy job, I can tell you - and on those who inhabit it. Some will emphasise particular aspects of the music - others won't. I play what I want, wherever I want - and it's a real mixture of stuff - and I've never been made to feel second class or out of place in any club I've been to. People may not have adored what I've done - how on earth could I appeal to everyone's taste - but I've always been treated with a welcome and respect.

So, Lizzie, tell us what you suggest. Please. It sounds very much like what you are saying is that, because one or two people have had a bad experience with one or two club organisers, the whole of the English Folk tradition needs to be replaced with something else. Something that the one or two who have had the bad experience, and yourself maybe, dictate? Because someone of your acquaintance could not get a gig at a club that may or may not have a policy that is outdated, then everyone who loves and enjoys Traditional English Folk, as well as modern folk, has to be subjected to nothing but the music that you like? What sort of world would that be?

Don't even try to suggest that the traditional folk world already operates that kind of policy because for every example you, or anyone else, may cite about a club in 1969, or in the back end of Little Boring on the Knob, booing a Bob Dylan cover, then people like Will, above or myself or any one of the hundreds of good club organisers out there, will cite the thousands of times that a Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen or Joni Mitchell or Paul McCartney song has been cheered.

This thread may be contentious in that it introduces something that some people may not consider folk music. That is fine - let us have a bit of contention. We already know that a definition of folk music cannot be agreed here on Mudcat. I, for one, find that the 1954 definition is fine - but I would not for a single instance suggest that the only music played at my club has to fit this definition. Nor does it seem would Will. Nor would the dozens on here that have already disagreed with you and the hundreds that feel that your contention is so ludicrous it cannot be addressed at all. Yet still you persist in these malicious and damaging rumours of some sort of Folk Gestapo. You don't need to explain why you do it. We all know why - There is history between yourself and some members on here who like Traditional Folk music.

Again, that is fine. But why don't you just be honest about it and say that you do not like Dave Eyre or Joanie Crump or Diane Easby or me. Why must you try to justify that dislike by suggesting that the whole of the traditional English folk culture is rotten to the core. I would be quite happy if just said 'Dave Polshaw is an arsehole and I don't like him.'. Honestly, I can take it and, besides, your opinion is of little consequence to me. What I cannot sit by and let you do is try to justify your dislike of the few by trying your best to discredit the hundreds and thousands of good people out there who make up the English Folk 'world'.

Now, please carry on singing the praises of whoever you like. Your enthusiasm does you credit. But try to understand that your tastes are not always everyones tastes. They are perfectly valid. They may be contovertial in terms of folk music. But not one single person will punish you for them. Please stop trying to punish everyone who enjoys traditional musuc by suggesting it should be replaced with your own likes.

I actually love 'some' traditional music..but I couldn't give a hoot for all that 1976 definition 'stuff'

And I'm still recovering from being reminded of the Famous Flowers of Serving Wenches! Yikes that song is too dreary even to die too!! I mean WHO would want to listen to 36 verses of that???? Holey Moley!

I like the New Tradition stuff better. The songs being written today, by living, breathing songwriters. Sometimes they write songs of long ago. Sometimes they write songs of the Human Condition of today...Sometimes, like Robert, at the start of this thread, they sing songs their Granny's used to sing to them, when they were little...

"And I'm still recovering from being reminded of the Famous Flowers of Serving Wenches! Yikes that song is too dreary even to die too!! I mean WHO would want to listen to 36 verses of that???? Holey Moley!"

Nooooooooo! Don't make me sit through that song again, in fact the mere mention of it has made me shiver from head to foot!

Once, I went to a folk gig and saw people knitting!! They were knitting whilst the artist was singing. I tried to figure out if they were related to those who sat beside the Guillotine and maybe they were knitting in various artists names to a Secret List to be sent to Folk Police Headquarters.

I *also* saw others putting ear plugs in, to their ears, I hasten to add, not to their knitting, and they did this right in front of the band...

How rooooooood is that???

I was told folkies do that kind of thing sometimes, but I was a bit flabbergasted myself, in fact my flabber hadn't been so gasted for a *very* long time!

Now of course, if I'd got to the 15th verse of Famous Flowers of Serving Wenches I'd probably get my Johnny Depp Appreciation Booklet out of my backpack, but...at least I'd do it surreptisiou.....can't spell that..at least I'd do it discreetly, so as not to upset anyone..although the sounds of "Oohs!" and "Ahhhs" may let me down just a fraction, but hey, it *is* Johnny Depp, come ON, folks!

This is good, Lizzie - I feel I am making some progress :-) I know it is my lack of understanding BTW so don't think by 'making progress' I am referring to anything you have done. I am just understanding things a bit better.

There are still some things that I am failing to see though -

And please, don't come over all dictatorial with me.

I didn't think I had. Apologies if it came over like that.

I actually love 'some' traditional music..but I couldn't give a hoot for all that 1976 definition 'stuff'

Ditto for me. I think the 1954 definition is useful to some people who need to label music - I am not saying that in any derogatory manner. labels can be very important in lots of circumstances! I don't use it myself though.

Why then, if you like traditional music, are you suggesting it needs to be replaced with something else? Why do you want to deny thousands of people the right to listen to traditional music? Why do you believe that your tastes are more valid than mine or Richards or anyone else's? Help me to understand that.

I mean WHO would want to listen to 36 verses of that???? Holey Moley!

I would. Martin Carthy's version of 'Famous Flower' is one of my favourite tracks. Why should I be subjected to ridicule because my tastes differ to yours? Again - Please explain. I honestly don't understand.

Once, I went to a folk gig and saw people knitting!! They were knitting whilst the artist was singing. I tried to figure out if they were related to those who sat beside the Guillotine and maybe they were knitting in various artists names to a Secret List to be sent to Folk Police Headquarters.

I *also* saw others putting ear plugs in, to their ears, I hasten to add, not to their knitting, and they did this right in front of the band...

My twin daughters (in their 20s - Not old fogies at all) are demon knitters and lovers of traditional music. They love to combine the two. They often take their knitting to the pub too. They were bullied at school for being different. How is your ridiculing their actions any different from the type of bullying that you make such a stance against. Besides - How does knitting stop anyone from listening to music or watching the artist. Surely, as a woman, you understand multi-tasking? :-)

In addition, my wife has a condition which leaves her in great pain if the volume of any sound system (particularly the bass levels) is too high. She always needs ear plugs at the cinema and often needs them at concerts - depending of how high the sound man has cranked up the bass or where the speakers are positioned.

May I suggest to you that these things you have seen are not always as they first appear.

Well, if I were an artist and someone got out their knitting, or put plugs in their ears, right in front of me, I'd feel a little..er..a...little...upset, to be honest...Same as I would if someone sat there reading the paper or talking to the person next to them.

It's about showing respect to the artist. If you don't want to do that, then don't go to their gigs. It's that simple really.

Dave, I appreciate the work you're putting in to your new campaign to do all you can to discredit anything I say...and I almost have to compliment you on the cleverness of your new approach, but....I've had way too many years of seeing brilliant artists being verbally castrated by many within the folk world, out there on the internet, where those words stay. And those words were there purely because they didn't fit in with *their* idea of what folk actually is, or because the authors of those words were shit scared that I might actually get others to listen to their music.

I stood up for many of these artists and in doing so, they themselves were ridiculed in the most nasty and aggressive display of suppression I've ever come to know.

I am perfectly within my rights to feel indignation at some of the shitty things that some of the people within your world have done to not only me, but to many talented artists.

I am WELL aware there are some lovely people within the folk world, for I've met many of them...It is NOT the good people I stand up and rage about, but the ones who have their 'Witch Hunts' against those they deem to be 'outside the radar', be it me, or be Bob Dylan..."JUDAS!!!" etc...

And yes, please feel free to bring up Phil Beer's letter, or bring Show of Hands into this, yaddayaddayadda, if that floats your boat....

Please note that I have NEVER been nasty about a particular artist, never.

I may keel over after 57 verses of one song, even if Johnny Depp was singing, clad in Pirate Gear, but no, those songs are not for me...Fine for others...but it's not the traddie songs I'm on about it, is it? It's the PEOPLE who dictate what is and isn't folk, as ever...and who put fences up to keep those they dislike, out.

"My twin daughters (in their 20s - Not old fogies at all) are demon knitters and lovers of traditional music. They love to combine the two. They often take their knitting to the pub too. They were bullied at school for being different. How is your ridiculing their actions any different from the type of bullying that you make such a stance against. Besides - How does knitting stop anyone from listening to music or watching the artist. Surely, as a woman, you understand multi-tasking? :-)

In addition, my wife has a condition which leaves her in great pain if the volume of any sound system (particularly the bass levels) is too high. She always needs ear plugs at the cinema and often needs them at concerts - depending of how high the sound man has cranked up the bass or where the speakers are positioned."

I also dislike folks who talk over artists.....

No, don't tell me, Dave, let me guess, you have someone in your family who suffers from a medical condition of Talkingitis, right? But they also love folk music and you dutifully take them along to every gig and plonk them in the front row, whilst putting your knitting daughters behind you and inserting ear plugs in for your wife, all at the same time as answering the incessant talking of your friend, whilst the music plays?

And...I dislike folks who read magazines or papers in front of artists (I was joshing about the Johnny Depp Appreciation booklet, obviously)

So do you have other members in your family who are compulsive magazine readers, needing to carry voluminous bunches of them at all times, regardless of where they may be, for they get Magazine Withdrawal Symptoms, causing them to shake and cry out for 'celebrities' from 'Eastenders' at all times?

Shite, HOW do you get to actually watch an act? I mean, inbetween untangling the knitting, threading the needles, answering the questions, inserting the ear plugs and dishing out newspapers and magazines galore..I mean truly, HOW do you get the time to even notice who's on stage? let alone keep track of what they're singing...of what they may have taken weeks/months to write, let alone appreciating all the stress they're going through of actually sitting or standing up on stage to sing their songs to their audience, who are now so hyperactive that every row is filled with people doing the strangest things, simply because they have to...

I have this wonderful picture in my head............

Oh, and by the way, I'd just like to tell you about Martyn Joseph...you know, that 'Singer Snogwriter' (their phrase) bloke they used to 'put down' at every opportunity, even deeming to mention his dolphin song on the fRoots main page, where they kick singer songwriters where it hurts most, in their talent...telling folks that fRoots do NOT accept Singer Snogwriters, or ARSSs as they used to call Show of Hands (who they now HAVE accepted, strangely)

Well, Martyn was doing a gig once, in Exeter. Half way through a song down wanders a Down's Syndrome lad....followed closely by his somewhat distraught and embarrassed father. The lad climbs on the stage and gives Martyn the biggest hug EVER! Martyn stops the song, hugs him back so hard...then the two of them sit on the front of the stage together, heads pressed towards each other, leaning into one another, whilst they both finished the song together...The most lovely display of love and affection I've seen in a long while. And I seem to recall the young lad stayed for the next song too. It made his evening, his week, possibly one of the best nights he's had...He was beaming when he left the stage to loud applause, absolutly beaming, bless him.

And of course, Martyn's song 'Dolphins Make Me Cry', so derided by fRoots and their followers, was zoomed all over Facebook during the Gulf Coast Disaster, when that tragic scene of dying dolphins covered in oil, desperately trying to stay together whilst they died, in the middle of the ocean, was finally released out into the internet..

He writes songs which move millions, yet he is derided for that by many within your world, Dave. I could mention many other such talented folks who have come in for the same treatment, but I won't.

And now, I'll leave you to invent yet more stories of my bullying, nasty, vindictive nature...as that's how you want folks to perceive me. Those who know me, know I am anything BUT that. Those who choose to believe you, can go to............as far as I'm concerned.

Dave, I appreciate the work you're putting in to your new campaign to do all you can to discredit anything I say...and I almost have to compliment you on the cleverness of your new approach

There is no new campaign. I am not trying to discredit anything or anyone. I am trying to understand why someone wants to replace the music I like with the music they like.

And yes, please feel free to bring up Phil Beer's letter, or bring Show of Hands into this

Why on earth would I want to do that? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. In all our past conversations I have tried to keep within the bounds of what we were talking about. I have failed miserably at times but, on the other hand, so have you. I have never been nasty about any performer or any song either. The most I have ever said is that he/she/they/it is not my cup of tea. And still, none of this explains why anyone wants to deny my right to listen to traditional music.

As to knitting and ear plugs. Well, we will have to disagree about that. As you say, you are not an artist. I am and I can understand that people often behave differently from the norm. I would not be upset in the slightest if anyone knitted, did a crossword, wore sparkly ear defenders or painted their bums blue. I would get annoyed if someone spoke loudly through a song or got up and danced around to the annoyance of people who did actually want to see me on stage. But that is never likely to happen as I am not that good :-)

The disputed performances here - and in a million other threads - are all, to varying extents, "folk-inspired."

That said, they're not "folk" any more than a topiary is a plant-seed. People who insist they are are using "folk" mostly as a term of praise for something they like that has some conceivable relation to actual "folk" alias "trad" alias "roots music." (It's never called "folk" if they don't like it, at least not on Mudcat.)

That says nothing, however, about the quality, or even value, of such performances as music or entertainment.

let me guess, you have someone in your family who suffers from a medical condition of Talkingitis, right?

No - That is not true but quite funny all the same. The other things I have said are completely true.

I understand that you feel I am trying to discredit you so you are doing the same to me. But I am not making these things up. I should be quite offended that you seem to be accusing me of lying when I am not but, to be honest, and as I have said before, opinions on here have very little value indeed and I don't think you can appreciate how little I care whether you believe me or not. The people that matter know I tell the truth.

A final bit of truth about your last post too -

yet he is derided for that by many within your world, Dave.

You know as little about my world as I know about yours. I do not understand how you know who lives in it when I cannot even attempt a guess at who lives in yours. If we take all the second guessing and assumptions out of this it just boils down to whether we think some music is better than others surely?

I am dogged (no, nothing to do with dogging - stop it!) if nothing else. Hoping to move to Yorkshire soon so I cam become a Yorkshire terrorist... I blame my lack of intellect but at least, once I do understand something, it sticks.

Dave, do not take issue with me, take issue with those within your world who have, for so long, ruled over it.

Take issue with the bloke on BBC Radio Devon the other day, who was saying exactly the same thing. I can't recall his name, but hey, ring up, or emails Judi Spiers, as he was talking to her about it, saying that backalong he and Mike Harding used to play so many of the folk clubs, what good fun everyone had, how all music was acceptable, then, so many of the clubs were taken over by folks who started demanding this and that of their performers, whilst totally excluding the very folks who'd kept the circuit going...He was really miffed about it all...saying they were horrible people who'd taken over...

I've had more than a taste of those folks myself. Obviously, you weren't on the BBC board back then, else you'd have seen it all...and even the BBC called it a Witch Hunt. Extraordinary..and all because I loved the *wrong* kind of music..

Also, the BBC board had been 'taken over' by traddies, who were fuming that I dared to talk about Singer Songwriters and what I call the New Tradition songs...

You *know* it goes on, Dave.......so let's not bore the pants off everyone with this constant arguing..

I've said all I want to say on this matter now. If folks want to put some more links to the kind of folk music they like, that's fine, that's what this thread is about, to be honest....My first post was short and sweet...It was NOT about saying you couldn't listen to this or that...merely WIDENING the horizons...

Yes, sorry Lizzie, this thread should have been about widening horizons - I got it mixed up with the 'Occupy Folk Music' thread. I am not going to loose sleep over that though. Rather than move all the posts over there can I ask why you wanted to start that one though? Why do you want to 'Occupy' folk music with anything other than what already occupies it?

Yet again, though, we have Dave, do not take issue with me, take issue with those within your world who have, for so long, ruled over it.

You have no idea whatsoever about my world. You have no idea who, if anyone, rules it. There are NO rulers in the world of English Folk - Just those who enjoy it in one form or another.

I have no need to get over anything. I have not been under or on the wrong side of anything to get over. I just want to understand why you seem to know so much about the world in which I live, why you want to change it and why I cannot just live in peace with what I enjoy most.

Cheers

DtG

PS - Do you still believe I am making it up about my daughters knitting and my wife needing to use ear plugs? How can I prove it to you? Pictures? A Medical note?

I can, Lizzie - But to what end? I really do not want to be accused of doing anything underhand and I am working on the basis that the answers to the questions I am asking may be of interest to other people. Are we not better remaining, as it were, in the public domain? If you still would prefer to PM feel free to either send me one or let me know what you want me to send you.

Dave, just take personal vendettas off the board, there's a good fellow. And please don't come back with "But Lizzie, this isn't a ........." 'cos it's getting even MORE boring than 67 verses of Famous Flowers of Serving Wenches!

But it isn't a personal vendetta! And just by saying 'don't come back with...' doesn't make it so.

I have made no personal accusations on this thread. If I have given that impression I apologise unreservedly. I have been accused of a few things myself, which I am more than willing to ignore. All the questions I have asked have been genuine and I still believe that the answers may be of interest to the general public.

I have no interest whatsoever in starting a personal conversation with you so I respectfully decline your offer to PM you.

It's those OTHERS! Those who don't share my enthusiasms and who don't ROCK! And those: "folks who started demanding this and that of their performers, whilst totally excluding the very folks who'd kept the circuit going...He was really miffed about it all...saying they were horrible people who'd taken over..."

Yeah! Those horrible people (spit, spit!!) - God, they're so horrible! Don't you worry, Lizzie, one day I might meet one of them and then I'll give him a piece of my mind!

Where, exactly, would I go to meet one of those really, really horrible people, by the way?

I must add an apology though in case anyone missed the other in the body of my post. I was primarily referring to the 'Occupy FolK Music' thread when I made most of my above points. It is an easy mistake for a Gnome of very small intelligence to make when one thread seems pretty much like another. I am reluctant to copy all the words I have pasted here to the other thread.

However, by way of apology, I submit my vote for this particular definition of folk music. It has all the elements of that in the opening post with the benefit that I understand the words :-)

I'm posting this to this thread because it's the latest of the myriad of "what is folk" threads. I haven't read through all of this one so perhaps if it has become contentious, this might bring them back on track.

While watching the online video of the PBS documentary Give Me the Banjo, I heard a wonderful quote by Mike Seeger:

"This music exists to entertain a few friends and not for performance and it can happen anywhere, any time and I think it's wonderful for that reason."

well that line is attributed to Louis Armstrong, but there were some on an online community of musicians, historians and enthusiasts that collect and discuss traditional folk and blues songs, folklore, lyrics, instruments etc who wanted to know What EXACTLY is Folk?

This music exists to entertain a few friends and not for performance and it can happen anywhere, any time and I think it's wonderful for that reason.

This can be said of any music really; I've enjoyed many such informal musical soirees with folkies, brass players, choral singers, Classical players, jazzers and one memorable evening trying to play in a Viol Consort. I've been part of fireside ceilidhs with exalted singers, stortellers and folk musicians in which we sang anything but folk songs - great fun!

So that tells us about what people do some of the time. What becomes of Folk Music when it does become about more formal performance? Or does True Folk Music preclude that? But all music has its formal & informal aspects; all music has a social side, but all music isn't Folk...