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@Sola: You've come attached to the idea of HT not being SQ. Could you give some more thoughts as to why? The one with Ramirez's toughboys isn't valid: they didn't know where Garrett lives, they knew where he was buying lockpicks from.

It's something that's been debated and discussed since very, very early in the thread. Mugla even suggested it early on - it makes sense to have multiple homes when you're a thief. Watch Heat for an example - you've got to be ready to turn and run when the Heat shows up. Why else is he heading to Shalebridge in ambush? He's got a safehouse there.

Actually, it's implied with Ramirez's notes that they do know one of his hidey-holes - he's listed as a South Quarter independent.

Oh, and by the same token, at no point in the game does he refer to Home Turf as South Quarter - there's no proof of it, one way or the other.

Oh, and by the same token, at no point in the game does he refer to Home Turf as South Quarter - there's no proof of it, one way or the other.

True, there's no categorical proof, but it's still far and away the most likely conclusion, in my judgement. It's true Garrett may have safe-houses, (it is implied he has one in Shalebridge in T2, we actually see one in OQ in T3), it's also clear that he has a more permanent apartment in SQ thoughout all 3 games (as he says in a T3 city section briefing "I guess this is home"). So I believe Home Turf refers to South Quarter, but it doesn't have to be his back yard.

However, placing Shalebridge in Old Quarter doesn't move the Assassin map so it's not a problem. It was only an earlier map of Sola's that did this. If you look at the last one (page 30 of this thread) then you'll see what I mean.

Sola, is Lampfire Hills presented as a city section? (It sounds more of an outlying district or something).

I had thought about this one earlier. It would be another proof of Sola's point if the apartment in T3 OQ is actually 449 Taft Avenue.
If the HT-mark would be something other than SQ, I would be willing to accept if it would be the SB apartment.

I mean, we have to draw a line *somewhere*: G can't own every fifth aparment in the city.

I had thought about this one earlier. It would be another proof of Sola's point if the apartment in T3 OQ is actually 449 Taft Avenue.
If the HT-mark would be something other than SQ, I would be willing to accept if it would be the SB apartment.

I mean, we have to draw a line *somewhere*: G can't own every fifth aparment in the city.

Hmmm... we'll, I didn't realize that there were only twenty apartments in the city.

Let's see, depending on which version of the map I've posted it's:

1) T3 Apt in SQ
2) T2 Apt in SQ (most likely abandoned, so it won't count for the final total)
3) T1 Apt South of Ramirez (may not even be an apartment, as Home Turf may represent the area away from the enemy)
4) Safehouse in SB

So that's anywhere between 2-4 apartments at any given time. Or, one apartment and a safehouse.

Thanks, str8g8, as an after thought, (always the case). Randy has stated that the river divides THE CITY.

Everyone is comfortable with this, the overlooked part of that is that many rivers of this type (estuary/bay/Coastal) frequently have "branches" that vary from mere rivlets to streams nearly the size of the parent.

The river to LOST CITY need not be the main river, and the canals in various parts of the city may well be branches that were leveed and otherwise converted to canals. Also it is common (I have lived in many such places) for the "rivers, creeks, and other rivlets" to be paved over, run through drainage systems etc. to permit construction above and to control the "flood" possiblity. Not to mention using existing waterways for sewage and storm drainage; thus removing the need to construct new ones.

So the visible water in AMBUSH, ASSASSINS, COURIER, and other such "Local" maps, may be merely small portions of the branches that were left open as a source for water or other use.

SHALEBRIDGE ROAD would have kept its name, and the inhabitants of the city thier referrences to it.

Shalebridge Cradle merely takes its name because IT IS ON SHALEBRIDGE ROAD and not IN or ADJACENT to SHALEBRIDGE PROPER.

edit: It could have been called, CATHEDRAL CRADLE (Cathedral way) had it been located on that street.

This covers the cradle situation, Garrett's retreat, and justifies the use in the differing circumstances.

I will have to study the maps with a little more attention to determine if it helps the map development.

*sigh*

Beating dead horse time, indeed -

1) Shalebridge road runs N/S in Ambush. Most recent map has Cradle far to the east, and SB very, very far to the NW.

2) Arrows to SB point NE. Not NW. AMBUSH indicates a quick getaway, not a city-wide trek, so current map layout seems clunky in that respect. Solution: move SB closer on the map - I've posited two possibles, and am looking forward to further discussion.

3) Shalebridge/Newmarket river connection, which you touch on in a later post - the city is riddled with waterways. There's nothing saying that SB is on the other side of the HUGE RIVER, just A river.

two of the three problems are solved by reverting to the earlier map (and/or placing SB on the south shore), because it allows SB to be NE, and near enough to NM to 'cross a river' due to a drought.

The only remaining problem is the Cradle, which is not connected to Shalebridge road.

Anyways, as I said, the compromise map I've posted is still up for debate.

Warning: Big, sloppy sentences...

With mountains to the north and east, and hills here and there (based on briefings, map layouts, and discussions in this thread), noting the shape of Cragscleft (similar to the range seen in a briefing) and all of the run-off, there shouldn't be too much debate over tributaries and canals (likely diverted tributaries) versus a "huge friggin' river," with watercraft and bridges spanning across it (with several columns and arches supporting them).

As an aside, I wonder why we don't see geo-thermal activity such as geysers, scalding hot springs, steaming fissures, etc., since the Lost City shows water flowing into the crust and lava all over (before TMA, anyway), and the Maw has similar Fire/Water juxtapositions...

Just to illustrate the possible route of Shalebridge Road:
AFter some thought I think we should discount Sola's second idea of placing SB in the northern part of OQ as this seems neither one thing nor the other in that it leaves us with the same old problem regarding the cradle.

1) Shalebridge road runs N/S in Ambush. Most recent map has Cradle far to the east, and SB very, very far to the NW.

2) Arrows to SB point NE. Not NW. AMBUSH indicates a quick getaway, not a city-wide trek, so current map layout seems clunky in that respect. Solution: move SB closer on the map - I've posited two possibles, and am looking forward to further discussion.

3) Shalebridge/Newmarket river connection, which you touch on in a later post - the city is riddled with waterways. There's nothing saying that SB is on the other side of the HUGE RIVER, just A river.

The map above (by str8g8) is actually one of the oldest maps we have been playin around, so I'm wondering how you could had missed it. I take you have been referring to str8g8's newest version, in which I noticed the same issues as you did?

1. One of the main roads from T3 map runs N-S, and dodges down into the Cradle (which is, by the way, at the first bridge, clearly seen in the cutscene with Inspector Drept).
When connecting Ambush! with it, we can name it SB-road. This will also leave the Ambush! home into SQ for now (it is 'home turf', meaning a place where he 'reigns'. All Ramirez knew G. terrorized SQ, thus the ambush had to be somewhere where he could find him (otherwise it would had been straightly directed at his home, while he was shopping etc. kind of explanation)), and name the northest bridge... Shale Bridge...
Also such option for the name of the Cradle was discussed, that it was made for the orphans of the Shalebridge, but the snob who funded it wanted to keep the kids away from the old neighbourhood.

2. So now the arrows of Ambush! point directly at Shalebridge, which was actually stretched so that it would fit inside them. For me it seems that there has to be some distance due to the arrows, or they wouldn't be there, just like the corners are straightly named without arrows in the Assassins! map. Just as str8g8 said, there then can be a clear run to the safety of SB, as the guards are swarming around G.'s house for a reason. But that is only one option.

3. The River dilemma is true, and indeed, as theBlackman suggested, we've already considered calling the stream from the Keeper-map (and later paved over in Assassins! some 50 years later) a side-track from the main River. The hills have been planned accordingly, too.
But, as I've noted, it has been paved over. Actually so much, that I cannot see how the peasants would use it to cross, when they simply can walk over it 80% of the lenght!
So, in the above map, Assassins! was placed as close to the River as possible, and if it weren't for the Keeper-map and the few rows of houses over the north-wall, the wall would had been right next to the River.

Also note the LotP guest-register, where this feller was having 'a vacation in Shalebridge', but this was 'hand-waved' as being some slang for being bankrupt etc. Though why would the mechanists use such language, I cannot say. Or perhaps they were only told so, and believed it.
Anyways, just an option.

So, now we have pretty much two valid options, the two str8g8 mentioned above.

EDIT:
Oh, also note, Assassins!' real scale. Brings NM even closer. Perhaps it could stretch above the wall too? But... hometurf retracts upwards... Then again, it was never tied to SQ anyways...

To avoid a too long post.

Alright, as I see it, we should wait MorbusG finish his work on the evidence-gathering, and then construct a full map on both versions. Unless either turns out to be clearly better option, we will have to include both, and let the fan-missioners vote, which they'll use. The other one will then be left as a margin note for accounting purposes. We might also be able to use that filmloop.com Black mentioned to speed up some of the exchange, do you think?

Also the site's build should be taken under consideration.

Logan: Well, just for the fun's sake (remember to give some artistic freedom for such sketches. It might be a real-life sketch of a town after-all, much like the picture of the Trixter playing the bag-pipes is):
-The River-curve can be seen going into the distance.
-Sea can be seen at the fore-ground
-Clocktower on the hill in the left side
-Mountains on the right side of the picture, in the correct alignment
-The 'gates' by the river-bend, part of the Sealed Section
-The shoals in the river-bend (though on the wrong side, due to natural river behavior and Shoalsgate on the opposite bank etc.)

But:
-There is merely wilderness in Dayport
-No bridges seen, just a water-fence

Be right with you. Quitting a stressful job, looking for a new apartment. Just a tad preoccupied at the moment.

Ouch, yes, Real Life does have a habit of getting in the way sometimes, doesn't it? I hope you get it sorted out soon.

Alright, as I see it, we should wait MorbusG finish his work on the evidence-gathering, and then construct a full map on both versions.

Well, I don't want to do a full map on both versions, if by full you mean finished. It will a big enough task as it is. We can do the basic layout for both versions and then pick one (perhaps this is what you meant?).

This Gorinchem angle is interesting, but I don't think the City is based too closely on any single place ... for instance, the City is much bigger than this Gorinchem, which seems to be more of a town. Places like Amsterdam, Stockholm, Venice, in fact any medieval European city built on water would probably have been influences in the design of the City.

I wonder if anyone will find the map that was used as the basis of the T3 city map ... ? That would be a find.

I like the idea that the the City might be surrounded by water - the canal system is there, the city walls are there, it would make sense in some way to use the water as part of the City's defences. When the layout is settled, this is just the kind of detail that can be added.

How come you have the "Lost city entrance" in New market? It's located in the river in "Assassins". Check it out. Open up miss5.mis (assassins) and miss9.mis (The Lost City). In mis 5, head down towards "home turf" and find the river, and there you'll see the keeper door lock . Exploring around, you'll also see it is 99% the SAME MAP as in the begining of "TLC" (Except the water changes color, and there's a missing manhole in "home turf" in Assassins, but other than that, its the same!)

Oooh... i thought that jumble of lines in the middle of the map was the Assassins map, not the "courier" one from T2. So that's why i was confused as to why "assassins" and "TLC" were put in two different palces.. because that wasn't the assassins map. My bad >_<

So, okay, why hasn't that assassins map been pasted in yet?

[edit] oh wait, i see it... uhm... should the "tlc" not be within the confies of the "assassins" map itself, isntead of floating away from it then?