Here's a piece of history that is generally forgotten, a civilization that had a gynocentric religion (this gynocentric religion may have lasted 15000+ years) that existed in Europe before the Indo Europeans. I'm sure many of you who have done research will recognize survivials of many things from it from history and today if you read The Civilization of the Goddess: The World of Old Europe-Gimbutas, Marija 1991. There are also plenty of pictures of artifacts including things like clearly recognizable drinking mugs and a childs toy farm house with toy animals.

hmm percival was fairly insistent that this venus statue and the likes are more prehistoric pornography. 😕 How would times back then be perceived as less spiritual? There are relatively few carved animals from that time compared to female figurines? If that is the truth, alot more time was dedicated to thinking of women....no harm in that. 😛
Aquatank I see your reference to the circular ditches again. There was an article I came accross the other day that I now cannot find- have you ever heard that people slept in those ditches?

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

March 24, 20102:46 pm

Aquatank

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I wouldn't be surprised if people slept in ditches, in fact it might make sense in area s prone to high winds, or tornados. But that hypothesis doesn't make sense for it to be in a circle that wide unless it had ceremonial implications. I'd have to see the articles your reffering to to get a idea of what the the uthor is talking about.

as for the venuses being prehistoric porn, from our times perspective maybe, from theirs maybe not. What is considered pornographic varies from place to place and time to time. A few hundred years back it used to be fine for a womans breasts to be exposed but not her shoulders, and it used to be indecent for a woman to to show any leg above her ankle. If we look at Burqas we see an even more extreme example of what is considered indecent. One thing you will see in proto-indo-european cultural artifacts is quite a bit of what we would consider sexual overtones. I might even say there is an almost survival of this in atleast Cathedral floor plans and entrances which are designed very vaginal: A vulva fulvum shaped entrance surrounded by men/saints, followed by uterus where the congregation is, the alter is placed where pooling occurs and generally two rooms of center to the back like ovaries, not to mention the phallic pillars holding the space open for all to enter and be "reborn" and the flying butresses that could represent fluid exchange.

Porn seems to be to modern a concept when compared to veneration.

March 24, 20107:06 pm

sandra

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Yes I still am looking for that article, how frustrating.
Although I remember you saying that the new Turkish temple found which predates agriculture, housings, etc reminded you of the finds in Dresden.

I know in Ancient Egypt they used sleeping Temples for curing the ill
which were thought to have led into Greece during times everything was still centered around the gods and rituals at Temples where people bathed and slept along with if they were cured, they were to bring the largest stones back to the temple as they could for an offering. However the Turkish Temple obviously predates all of this, and I'm guessing maybe not as much was centered around religious or spiritual rituals concerning health or otherwise maybe, but more for protection and safety. I'm guessing wet weather would not be great for sleeping in ditches, but because I'm guessing at that time there were not many enclosed structures besides caves?, it would have been a wise place to rest under the protection of the Gods possibly....if they had been on travel, kind of like a man made cave away from home. Possibly how we put up tents today. ok maybe not LOL Because I do know around 11,000 bp I think, they built tent like structures on the plains and more open land out of hides and large bones (tusks and such from mammoths)

But around 11,500bp there were known to be alot of movement of peoples and was known as a time of portable art as well from what I have read. Maybe the Turkish temple was used by a shaman on a hunting vision quest. Will we ever know?

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

March 24, 20107:19 pm

Aquatank

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Considering most peoples in the 8000BP and prior were nomadic foragers, I'm guessing they had some kind of portable shelter of some kind. Tents or teepees. If I was in charge I'd have favored teepees because the poles can be used as dual purpose travois, stretcher, and in a pinch maybe a lance against charging megafauna (atleast mine could have been they had the diameter of a popcan). The problem with such technology is skins and wood don't last long in so unless there are fixed settlements you aren't going to find post holes or anything generally.

March 24, 20107:27 pm

sandra

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"Aquatank" wrote: as for the venuses being prehistoric porn, from our times perspective maybe, from theirs maybe not. What is considered pornographic varies from place to place and time to time.

Well in the time of the gods and goddesses, what I have read, is that men had much more desire to depict gods and goddesses than mortals. And I'd prefer to think that much of the art was not manifestation of only sexual fantasies of the gods. Alot of those earlier times had alot to do with fertility, as well as I remember reading that for a good harvest a man and woman would be found exposing everything in the crop fields. I think almost all of the ancient art is translated with some type of modern ideal attatched to it, seems like it at times. Bionics thread in questions that make you think, about our physical placements of our reproduction organs made me think about alot of these things, as I believe alot of the ancient cultures new alot about it. About sexual power, magic, and creations, being centered around these things.

I might even say there is an almost survival of this in atleast Cathedral floor plans and entrances which are designed very vaginal: A vulva fulvum shaped entrance surrounded by men/saints, followed by uterus where the congregation is, the alter is placed where pooling occurs and generally two rooms of center to the back like ovaries, not to mention the phallic pillars holding the space open for all to enter and be "reborn" and the flying butresses that could represent fluid exchange.

Porn seems to be to modern a concept when compared to veneration.

Yeah, 'porn' does seem to be a modern concept. And I did have previous knowledge of the Cathedral floor plans, however I'd like to know more about the spiritual and religious significance of the placements. Along with I wonder how much the Vatican has of this ancient 'pornographic' art. My Uncle has a major in History, one of his, and I've tried to ask him about these things (he retired at 45 and now just sells and collects art, especially pottery), but its not a topic he'd rather discuss with me. lol

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

March 24, 20107:33 pm

sandra

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"Aquatank" wrote: Considering most peoples in the 8000BP and prior were nomadic foragers, I'm guessing they had some kind of portable shelter of some kind. Tents or teepees. If I was in charge I'd have favored teepees because the poles can be used as dual purpose travois, stretcher, and in a pinch maybe a lance against charging megafauna (atleast mine could have been they had the diameter of a popcan). The problem with such technology is skins and wood don't last long in so unless there are fixed settlements you aren't going to find post holes or anything generally.

Yes, and I wish I could find that article, because it mentioned holes being dug on the outskirts edge of teepees, in which I had never heard of. I've never heard of anyone sleeping in holes or ditches covered like teepees. Of course one reason- the only hole was to be in the middle for the fire, so this had really confused me, but the article was referencing much earlier times,, like way before the 1600s when the plains people started using horses and such for travel, which then allowed them to use bigger structures for teepees because the weight could be carried. And if that was the case, it had to come from much earlier times as well. Now I keep searching for the material of the article, which all I am now coming up with is more of the modern housing structures of the teepees and longhouses and such.

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

March 24, 20108:53 pm

Aquatank

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I'm not saying the ancient art was sexual fantasies, but while I was walking today I wondered if the shift towards the pantheons and such was a philosophical-theological by groups that were trying to find got fed up with rituals that might have been becoming more hedonistic: pleasures of the Spirit vs pleasures of the Flesh sort of thing.

The church layouts, are what I term a survival. Survivals are interesting because most times the symbology got lost, and it just becomes the "traditional" way of doing this or that.

I can see how teepees and ditchs or more importantly holes go together quite readily actually. Simply put look at a real igloo. A pit is dug into the earth and the shell is placed over the pit. Its something about ground temperatures actually being warmer about 2 feet or more down. Now on the other hand a teepee doesn't have any protection a the bottom, a smart builder has an internal liner for air current reasons, but anyone whose slept in a tent should know you don't touch the wall if it is raining. thus a small circular ditch around a teepee would serve as a gutter drainage ditch to the insides from having a puddle of water in it. Atleast those are what comes to mind. A pit is dug in the winter and a drainage ditch is made in the rest of the year, perhaps even both at times.

March 25, 20108:26 am

sandra

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"Aquatank" wrote: I'm not saying the ancient art was sexual fantasies, but while I was walking today I wondered if the shift towards the pantheons and such was a philosophical-theological by groups that were trying to find got fed up with rituals that might have been becoming more hedonistic: pleasures of the Spirit vs pleasures of the Flesh sort of thing.

Oh yeah, I know you weren't saying that, however percival was suggesting more in paleolithic times that statues such as that of the Venus could be more physical adornment than anything, which I do not believe. Although it doesn't look like percival is even around the BV anymore.

And some of the art could have possible been sexual fantasies, however not how we would perceive them in modern contexts. I think you are right about there being a philosophical influence in the transformation of many of the rituals and their meaning (if thats what you were meaning to say). Even in Ancient Greek from the worshipping of gods and goddesses, I think many things were transformed by what was later written.

I've done a bit more reading on the statues that are more paleolithic, and I believe I read that in neolithic times, a figure physically similar to that of the Venus one, 'Dobrogea the goddess of fertility'...had even more dramatic physical characteristics.

I was reading an insert from a Reichel Dolmatoff book, whom states that the father penis and mother vulva were the original shamans.- But I do not believe that was the Upper Paleolithic regions, and I could not find any further information on that. Very interesting to me though. I think paleolithic people were primitive in the fact that their physical expressions were more microcosms, yet of a much larger spiritual superstructure, that most modern minds are not capable of understanding, as today physical and spiritual manifestations are of more equal value in eyes sight.

One hypothesis I read was that these paleolithic figures could have been used to stretch hymens open in woman hood initiations...and although I doubt that, it was still one of the more rare possibilities. I would like to believe with some of the others, that entrance into dwellings and caves were seen as entrance into more of a spiriutal realm, like an axis mundi.
Even today Native Americans believe the Lodge to be symbolism for the womb, that of a woman and mother earths, which is sacred. Also reminds me of Delphi from Greece which is translated to 'womb', 'mother earth' etc which is a axis mundi. With the axis mundi symbols and appearance taking place in pretty much every culture in the world, I'd like to think these figures like that of the female figures were more a microcosm and one of the most earliest physical manifestations of the axis mundi symbolism which represented the connection to life, even on a cosmic level. Some of the arts depicting women in paleolithic times are thought to show the significance of the power of womanhood, not just motherhood, I really believe that, along with the fact that there are far less of these figures impregnated.

And with almost all of the earlier figures having no legs or arms, it reminded me (many axis mundis are depicted as trees and such in later times) of a more microcosm, that of the female reproductive system,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....Gray34.pnghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....ray589.pngand even far more of a microcosm, the fertilization of an egg. Along with a female pronucleus. http://www.madsci.org/posts/ar.....2.Ge.2.jpg
The point is, I think the physical representations of these figures
are much more than what anyone has yet suggested they spiritually meant...and the shapes of these figures, can be seen throughout many other physical representations.
Just like I know some archaelogists are not always sure if it is female or male that some of these figures are, because male organs can appear much the same, like the frenulum and urethral opening. I think these figures suggest a portal of spiritual importance, very much so. Maybe that sounds way out there to most people but portals come in endless amounts of symbolism, and why not start at the very center of the Human Body. lol

In some cave art, umbillica cords are depicted coming out of women with scenes in which animals are also in, you know what possible fantasy could that be? Ok kidding, but really.
There were obvious significance to these things while some would like to believe almost all cave art did not have a sense of physical reality, although their spiritual beliefs I'd like to believe were much more radical. They had to work harder spiritually to physically manifest things. Which makes me more prone to believe that anything at that time that was physically manifested, objects/art and otherwise had great spiritual meaning attatched to it regardless if it appeared to have a simple physical use. Like some of the hunting tools. That time period I see they really exerted their imagination. Native Americans to this day keep the little parts of the cord, and hold it in a medicine bag, as it is viewed as spiritual protection and physical health for the childs future. Well I just wanted to add some more of my own thoughts on the figures like the one of Venus.

The church layouts, are what I term a survival. Survivals are interesting because most times the symbology got lost, and it just becomes the "traditional" way of doing this or that.

I think alot of symbology did get lost, although I think alot of it is still here, yet we continually change 'how' we do things, along with 'why' we do them. Although the church layout is definitely a survival, now I see more of what you mean, less tainted like? Although most people are completely unaware of why a church would have such a layout, so in reality its physically survived more.

A pit is dug in the winter and a drainage ditch is made in the rest of the year, perhaps even both at times.

Thats what I couldn't figure out, if both could be used at times, and I seriously did not know that the ground of igloos were dug out. Of course the ground would have to be cleared out.

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

You're really going to like Gambutas' book, one of the controversies is that she says there is paleolitic writing of a sort on some of the items, while her detractors casually dismiss the claims. My opinion is this if one can draw, that means one has made a symbolic connection, hence the move from that to telling an idea through drawing is quite simple, hence a system of writing was probably around, how good it was at communicating the intended thought is a different matter, even in todays writing a simple poem can get some very odd interpertations.

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