so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right?

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

Just like Christianity, Islam has had many variations throughout the years. Just as Christians can range from the Amish to the Ku Klux Klan, Islam has a similar range. There is an older form of Islam, called Ilm al-Kalam, which is dedicated towards dialectic reasoning. Under this school great thinkers such as Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina rose to prominence, and it was under Kalam that the Abbasid Caliphate became the greatest center of learning on earth during its time. The problem with modern Islam is that it is in the grips of radical Salafism and the various hard-line Shia sects which oppose it. These stringent groups actually view Kalam as heretical and condemn it. It's a rather nasty situation not all that different than the one that Christianity found itself in before the introduction of Thomist thought; the brutal murder of Hypatia epitomized that toxic climate.

"I thought about the Paschal Candle. Wounded in its wax, wounded in its wick, wounded in its light, having the Passion of Christ in it and having therefore the woundedness of the world in it, it was there at our cradle, going before us and guiding us in time, and now again, there it is at our coffin, going before us and guiding us into eternity."
- John Moriarty -

This. Sufis actually struggle against the tyranny of Iran's clerical overlords, even having the courage to advocate secular government:

"A leading Gonabadi figure, Seyed Mustafa Azmayesh, has described to the Iranian-language Radio Farda branch of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty the destruction of a Gonabadi meeting house in the town of Karaj on May 10, by 100 members of the dictatorship's Basij militia assisted by plainclothes police. In addition, 24 Gonabadi Sufis have been tried and sentenced to flogging as well as prison terms and internal exile, and Sufis have been forbidden a traditional burial for their dead relatives " an abuse also perpetrated by Saudi-inspired Wahhabis attempting to destroy Sufism.

Thus, the Iranian rulers imitate the Wahhabis while at the same time claiming to fight against them. Azmayesh notes, as have others, that the Tehran government has formed four commissions, aimed at liquidating Iranian Sunnis under the pretext that they are all Wahhabis; wiping out Sufis as they do not accept the ideological concept of "a supreme Islamic leader;" eliminating the Baha'is because their global headquarters is located in Israel, and labeling new mystical tendencies as devil-worship.

Azmayesh has eloquently summarized the relationship between spirituality and politics in Islam: "Sufis believe absolutely in the necessity of separation between religion and politics. Sufis believe that if religion and politics are mixed, not only will it be impossible to solve the problems in the world, moreover, the respectability and credibility of religion will vanish. This is especially true when those who have the authority of religion and politics take advantage of their positions. They put the label of Islam on their horrible acts and feel free to impose severe penalties in the name of Islam on those who stand in their way. They harm the reputation of Islam in the eyes of the people and history. People think that Islam really is an ideology that advocates violence and that Islam is based on terror.""http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org...

"I thought about the Paschal Candle. Wounded in its wax, wounded in its wick, wounded in its light, having the Passion of Christ in it and having therefore the woundedness of the world in it, it was there at our cradle, going before us and guiding us in time, and now again, there it is at our coffin, going before us and guiding us into eternity."
- John Moriarty -

I've generally found that religion is a sort of philosophical Rorschach test. A mess of varied translations, multiple doctrines, and sectarian interpretations engendered by schism upon schism which can be used to justify just about anything under the sun.

Other historical forces usually determine which justifications and interpretations survive and promulgate themselves through (ironically enough) a form of societal selective pressure.

"I thought about the Paschal Candle. Wounded in its wax, wounded in its wick, wounded in its light, having the Passion of Christ in it and having therefore the woundedness of the world in it, it was there at our cradle, going before us and guiding us in time, and now again, there it is at our coffin, going before us and guiding us into eternity."
- John Moriarty -

At 2/6/2013 1:50:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:I've generally found that religion is a sort of philosophical Rorschach test. A mess of varied translations, multiple doctrines, and sectarian interpretations engendered by schism upon schism which can be used to justify just about anything under the sun.

Other historical forces usually determine which justifications and interpretations survive and promulgate themselves through (ironically enough) a form of societal selective pressure.

That's pretty well put.

"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

At 2/6/2013 1:50:21 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:I've generally found that religion is a sort of philosophical Rorschach test. A mess of varied translations, multiple doctrines, and sectarian interpretations engendered by schism upon schism which can be used to justify just about anything under the sun.

Other historical forces usually determine which justifications and interpretations survive and promulgate themselves through (ironically enough) a form of societal selective pressure.

That's pretty well put.

Why thank you.

"I thought about the Paschal Candle. Wounded in its wax, wounded in its wick, wounded in its light, having the Passion of Christ in it and having therefore the woundedness of the world in it, it was there at our cradle, going before us and guiding us in time, and now again, there it is at our coffin, going before us and guiding us into eternity."
- John Moriarty -

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

Well, the Quran does actually say that if someone wants peace with us (the Muslims), then we should accept it - and the infidels (people who basically have no faith) are not excluded. You would have known this if you only read the Quran, something I doubt you have.

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

No, you are not right: the passage you are referring to is taken completely out of context, you have no idea what you are talking about..

This often misquoted passage is used to make it sound like Muhammad said search out Pagans and Infidels and kill them as if Islam were a militant faith, that was not what he was saying and the reason it sounds militant is because it was a battlefield directive given to an army. The verse is a quote from a military directive given during battle because a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Pagans of Makkah had been broken by the opposing army, the Mushriqs. Muhammad consequently gave them a four month grace period to make amends and restore the treaty, and if they did not, then a war would be declared against them. He was giving military orders to an army, and he made it clear that this was only the military directive if and only if the opposing army did not restore the peace of the violated treaty. He told the troops that if they would repent, pray, and practice charity then they should "open the way for them, for Allah is oft-giving and most merciful".

This quote was the quote of a general trying to boost the morale of an army facing battle. He went on in 9:5 to tell them that even if battle ensued, if any single opponent might seek asylum during battle, they should not only grant it to them, but they should remove themselves from the conflict so they could escort them to a safe place to ensure they remain unharmed. He said they should be shown mercy in spite of their military attack because of the fact that they were pagans, and therefore without knowledge of the loving and merciful God of Islam.

There are plenty of Biblical passages that could be taken out of context to characterize Christianity as just as promoting of violence, such as the directive to murder your misbehaving children and hate your parents. Neither of these out of context statements are "the norm" and neither of them of them are a fair characterization of their respective faiths either.

Here"s a quote from the Bible, how does it make Jesus look? Is this a fair characterization of Christianity?

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me." - Jesus Christ

"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

No, you are not right: the passage you are referring to is taken completely out of context, you have no idea what you are talking about..

This often misquoted passage is used to make it sound like Muhammad said search out Pagans and Infidels and kill them as if Islam were a militant faith, that was not what he was saying and the reason it sounds militant is because it was a battlefield directive given to an army. The verse is a quote from a military directive given during battle because a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Pagans of Makkah had been broken by the opposing army, the Mushriqs. Muhammad consequently gave them a four month grace period to make amends and restore the treaty, and if they did not, then a war would be declared against them. He was giving military orders to an army, and he made it clear that this was only the military directive if and only if the opposing army did not restore the peace of the violated treaty. He told the troops that if they would repent, pray, and practice charity then they should "open the way for them, for Allah is oft-giving and most merciful".

This quote was the quote of a general trying to boost the morale of an army facing battle. He went on in 9:5 to tell them that even if battle ensued, if any single opponent might seek asylum during battle, they should not only grant it to them, but they should remove themselves from the conflict so they could escort them to a safe place to ensure they remain unharmed. He said they should be shown mercy in spite of their military attack because of the fact that they were pagans, and therefore without knowledge of the loving and merciful God of Islam.

There are plenty of Biblical passages that could be taken out of context to characterize Christianity as just as promoting of violence, such as the directive to murder your misbehaving children and hate your parents. Neither of these out of context statements are "the norm" and neither of them of them are a fair characterization of their respective faiths either.

Here"s a quote from the Bible, how does it make Jesus look? Is this a fair characterization of Christianity?

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me." - Jesus Christ

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right? If yes, then there is no even a hint for peace in quran. You said to kill, you said to burn, you said to annihilate, you said to insult... and no even a word about peaceful civilized life.

No, you are not right: the passage you are referring to is taken completely out of context, you have no idea what you are talking about..

This often misquoted passage is used to make it sound like Muhammad said search out Pagans and Infidels and kill them as if Islam were a militant faith, that was not what he was saying and the reason it sounds militant is because it was a battlefield directive given to an army. The verse is a quote from a military directive given during battle because a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Pagans of Makkah had been broken by the opposing army, the Mushriqs. Muhammad consequently gave them a four month grace period to make amends and restore the treaty, and if they did not, then a war would be declared against them. He was giving military orders to an army, and he made it clear that this was only the military directive if and only if the opposing army did not restore the peace of the violated treaty. He told the troops that if they would repent, pray, and practice charity then they should "open the way for them, for Allah is oft-giving and most merciful".

This quote was the quote of a general trying to boost the morale of an army facing battle. He went on in 9:5 to tell them that even if battle ensued, if any single opponent might seek asylum during battle, they should not only grant it to them, but they should remove themselves from the conflict so they could escort them to a safe place to ensure they remain unharmed. He said they should be shown mercy in spite of their military attack because of the fact that they were pagans, and therefore without knowledge of the loving and merciful God of Islam.

There are plenty of Biblical passages that could be taken out of context to characterize Christianity as just as promoting of violence, such as the directive to murder your misbehaving children and hate your parents. Neither of these out of context statements are "the norm" and neither of them of them are a fair characterization of their respective faiths either.

Here"s a quote from the Bible, how does it make Jesus look? Is this a fair characterization of Christianity?

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me." - Jesus Christ

You know, this is the first post you have made that I agree with.

Aww crap, then I want a do over.

Can I tak e Mulligan?

"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater

At 2/6/2013 6:49:21 AM, Blowns wrote:so indeed I've got only one tiny question for the followers of islam visiting this forum. Do not even read this post if you're religious fanatic as I do not actually need your propagation at all. Need nothing but anyhow considerable answer to my question. So the question is: about what peaceable nature of islam your say here and there if even the Mohammed left holy book 'quran' doesn't contain a word about a possibility of peace with "infidels"?? Am I right?