Guys,Guys,Guys..... only the Laws from the OT that MM feels apply,actually apply. Not the silly ones like cutting your hair or tattoo's or killing gays and unruly teens. The rest of the rules,they use the get out of hell free card that Jesus gave them

How about it MM do all the rules of the OT only apply to the original people God intended it for?

To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.

That's the point, that's what the post was about, to point out how ridiculous the bible is. Actually read it, cover to cover, especially the Old Testament, it's packed full of stuff like that. One of the primary reasons I don't take it seriously, I only own a bible because my mother bought me one when I was 8 and still going to church.[1]

No, you've edited my post to make it fit your interpretation. The bible demands a most of those things, and gives a way out of punishment for the rest, if that is not a form of endorsement then I don't know what is.

Bold mine. Demands them of who? If you think those things are demanded of anybody other than the original recipients of the laws, please explain to me why. Make a case for it.

here it is in case you forgot

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

No, you've edited my post to make it fit your interpretation. The bible demands a most of those things, and gives a way out of punishment for the rest, if that is not a form of endorsement then I don't know what is.

Bold mine. Demands them of who? If you think those things are demanded of anybody other than the original recipients of the laws, please explain to me why. Make a case for it.

I flip that question and return it to you, why doesn't gods word apply to people equally? You've basically said that we can disregard the entire bible since it "doesn't apply to us."

But for the sake of honesty, here my case: If gods word does not apply equally, why abide by it at all? If you are able to cherry pick and only follow laws that you're comfortable with, why abide by them at all?

You've just killed your biblical morality inadvertently, how do you wish to recover it?

Why it would ever be okay for the people to kill unruly children, let a rapist pay the woman's father and walk, enslave other ethnic groups, massacre entire cities, etc, is still not clear.

And it may never be entirely clear. However, biblical scholars offer some very reasoned explanations of all these difficult passages. Would you like me to find some relevant links?

This only shows how weak your position really is, because all of those "biblical scholars" provide some very poor reasoning, and are usually based on a false premise which can be discarded out of hand.

Please provide links, I'd love to read them to make sure I'm correct, if I'm not, I'll retract what I've just said in this post.

Why it would ever be okay for the people to kill unruly children, let a rapist pay the woman's father and walk, enslave other ethnic groups, massacre entire cities, etc, is still not clear.

And it may never be entirely clear. However, biblical scholars offer some very reasoned explanations of all these difficult passages. Would you like me to find some relevant links?

This only shows how weak your position really is, because all of those "biblical scholars" provide some very poor reasoning, and are usually based on a false premise which can be discarded out of hand.

Please provide links, I'd love to read them to make sure I'm correct, if I'm not, I'll retract what I've just said in this post.

Certainly. Lets look at the Deuteronomy 21 cited earlier in the thread:

Somehow, they became null and void when Jesus got hammered up,which was his plan all along. We're suppose to accept and love him for taking down the rules that he himself established. So... he made up a bunch of rules he intended to have a limited lifetime... and then didn't list which ones are still suppose to be in effect. I still don't know if I'm allowed to boil a baby goat in its mother's milk.

I see I have to break it down to the absolute "bare bones" to get the point across.

Lets look at those 10.

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And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

Nothing about love. Just god barking orders.

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4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Now here, the word "love" is used, but it's very conditional. God makes clear that he is "jealous" (of what? Idol statues?), and punish generations of people for worshiping idols. His "love" is only for those that obey his rules (the same rules that christians now say is null and void, so where does that leave them?).

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7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Again, nothing about love. Just obedience.

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12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

This one is almost there. But it doesn't say "honor your parents because you love them". Instead, it tells you to honor them for personal benefits.

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13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

I know I am late to this discussion so my comment is directed at the OP:

I recently watched a German film called "Das weiße Band (2009)[1]", and it took place a year or so before WWI. There were two interconnecting scenes where a father (who was also a pastor or priest) was telling a story (a huge lie) to his son about how masturbation causes death. Frightening his son, horribly to tears, how if he kept masturbating he'd end up dead. At the same time he was telling his son this, he asked his son not to lie to him while he obviously was lying to him. He could have said that the god of the Bible would send you to hell if he kept masturbating (keeping with the mythos of Christianity) instead he chose to lie and tell him a story about another boy the year previous who died of masturbation. I thought it hypocritical. In the connecting scene you see the same boy tied down to his bed to prevent him from masturbating.

To me this is torture. The same basic scenario of the OP. The "father" obviously loves his son, all his children but he punishes them not in a way that teaches them to learn from their mistake (if it is a mistake in the first place), or even explains the sexual emotions (physical, or otherwise) he's going through at his age but punishes him for what comes natural for all young boys, including himself at a young age.

This is is my viewpoint of Biblegod: tells you what to do, or not to do and instead of teaching you to do better when you fail instead tortures you until you do it its way. Which, in a way does "teach" the person something: don't do things my way, I will torture you until you do.

Not really a lesson to learn. It's barbaric and cruel. That's Biblegod for you. It loves you, especially when it tortures you.

Hmmm, your God doesn't exactly lead a very good example of this, does he?

You are confusing "punishing the evil doers" with "killing."

At this point I fail to see the difference with what Biblegod has done.

He's flooded the entire world, killing all but a handful on an impossibly big boat, for which we have no evidence.He sacrificed himself, to himself, for himself.He's jealous.He nearly caused a father to kill his own son, then stopped him at the last second, saying it was some kind of test.He demands us to give him love and praise he doesn't deserve.

Also, he plagued a city in egypt, killing all the first born sons.This god is not one I would ever worship, respect, or even believe exists. Nothing this evil can be real.

I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.

And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

We were going on the assumption that God is as real as the sun. If we take God's existence as a given, then wouldn't the fact that he created us and created all life be reason enough to worship Him and love Him?

After all, why spit in the face of someone who created all life? It seems hypocritical to enjoy all the wonderful things that God gave us while cursing Him.

If he is real and our god, he isn't very good at it. If he is real, I have no respect for him.

He creates a world where he allows us to treat each other like sh*t and doesn't care at all and we're supposed to get all thanky on the dude? I don't think so. He made us vastly inferior to him (which is fine) and then lets us go out on our own simply because a couple of newbies couldn't follow his rules/resisit the enticement. So he punishes all, including his own kid, because it is more important to him that the blame gets passed on for generations than it is to correct the situation in the first place.

He choses some people, kills others. His lessons don't stick, his standards don't work, his instructions are open to interpretation, his threats are traumatizing and his emphasis on faith is effectively a ban on people such as myself who have no capability to follow blindly. He says he loves us but he depends on the likes of Pat Robertson and other cold hearted money grubbers to pass on his words. He seems to value being worshipped over all other activities and he has no sensitivity to the wants and needs of the humans that he designed to have, get this, wants and needs.

He values us only for our obedience. He lets us kill each other over questions of morality instead of making right and wrong clear enough to stop the fighting.

Yea, yea ,yea, free will and all that crap. Which is a dumb f**k way to run a planet. When there is only one way to do it right, it isn't free will. If I have to do it his way or fry. Under those conditions, it is imposed will. Yes or no is a choice when one is asked if they want a cookie. It is not a choice when one is asked if they want their eternity to be idyllic or overly toasty.

If he made us and can't allow for our various shortcomings, fruit-caused or otherwise, if he made us and then decided to sit back and watch what happens, then he doesn't love a thing about us. He isn't going to love me, an atheist, and he isn't going to love believers such as yourself, because you're less fun than I am. So for you to get all lovey-dovey with the dude, and adore him like a Beiber fan in hopes of getting an autograph some day, is a total misuse of human emotion. When your strongest attachment in life is to a being that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a crap is way too sad.

You can call it love. But it isn't. If he is real, it is indifference, pure and simple. At best, it is indifference. If he is real, it may even be distain. Perhaps even hatred. But it isn't really love. The love I have for others and that they have for me feels completely different. You need to learn the difference.

I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.

And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

Did you have an answer for the question there, champ? I wouldn't burn or torture them either. But I'm interested in what you would do if your children grew up and refused to get a job or contribute in any way. Would you take any action?

I know I am late to this discussion so my comment is directed at the OP:

I recently watched a German film called "Das weiße Band (2009)[1]", and it took place a year or so before WWI. There were two interconnecting scenes where a father (who was also a pastor or priest) was telling a story (a huge lie) to his son about how masturbation causes death. Frightening his son, horribly to tears, how if he kept masturbating he'd end up dead. At the same time he was telling his son this, he asked his son not to lie to him while he obviously was lying to him. He could have said that the god of the Bible would send you to hell if he kept masturbating (keeping with the mythos of Christianity) instead he chose to lie and tell him a story about another boy the year previous who died of masturbation. I thought it hypocritical. In the connecting scene you see the same boy tied down to his bed to prevent him from masturbating.

To me this is torture. The same basic scenario of the OP. The "father" obviously loves his son, all his children but he punishes them not in a way that teaches them to learn from their mistake (if it is a mistake in the first place), or even explains the sexual emotions (physical, or otherwise) he's going through at his age but punishes him for what comes natural for all young boys, including himself at a young age.

This is is my viewpoint of Biblegod: tells you what to do, or not to do and instead of teaching you to do better when you fail instead tortures you until you do it its way. Which, in a way does "teach" the person something: don't do things my way, I will torture you until you do.

Not really a lesson to learn. It's barbaric and cruel. That's Biblegod for you. It loves you, especially when it tortures you.

As men left the Stone Age god to become more progressive the rule of God did not progress. The rules of the Stone Age god one by one were abandoned. Men did not leave their god behind as they progressed as humanity, just his barbaric and vengeful rules.

As a society progressed out of the Stone Age your god MM did not. His rules did not change just your view of them. The fact they were barbaric (the rules) and nonsensical you were forced to abandon them MM. You don't have to justify why you abandon the rules but the fact they were so barbaric in the first place

I flatly reject this. The role of Jesus in fulfilling the law is quite clear to me, even if it isn't to you.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

Is this what you're referring to? If so, it's not exactly backing up your claims.

They're not just my claims. And those verses confirm that Jesus came to fulfil the law. The law remained in place right up until everything was accomplished. What did Jesus say on the cross?

This is is my viewpoint of Biblegod: tells you what to do, or not to do and instead of teaching you to do better when you fail instead tortures you until you do it its way. Which, in a way does "teach" the person something: don't do things my way, I will torture you until you do.

Not really a lesson to learn. It's barbaric and cruel. That's Biblegod for you. It loves you, especially when it tortures you.

-Nam

If only the signs were so clear. I could find God, by having a wank, and he would torture me. Proof of God.

Logged

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.