Ok went and read all I was suppose to and didn't, introduced my self... What shocked me was, that all this time he has proclaimed having certificates in all he trains our kids for and that now he doesn't !!! WTF you should. I can't see him spying on people in changing rooms/locker rooms, but you never really know someone as well as you think you do. I was just set back on the respect I had for him when he replied his rebuttal, I will go more into that later. There really is NO contact there. The students get disciplined if they continue to contact during sparring. Even if by accident. Just this whole discussion on Ray. The parts on the orphanages... Hmm well , I have to be careful on what I post. I will leave that at that!! I don't like the fact that their first 3 forms are not TKD forms that I have seen anywhere else. if they went to another school my kids would be lost.. My biggest issue is not having certificates for what you teach people. They are there for a reason (certificates).

Oh the client of mine... He used to train with him at the school in Olivette. Telling me he was abruptly removed from the facility for misconduct. That he was trying to push God on all the students during class even after he was asked not too. He is suppose to call later to tell more. I know this has all been talked about on this thread. Just posting again on it in case there are more disbelievers who read. Incase he reads again, sees that there are people other than here that are convinced that he is a scammer... Wish I would have found this alot sooner. I don't break contracts. But this is all gossip and he will probably say I am going to hell for participating in it if he knew who I was.. But I do love all the staff there :)

If you have a copy of the contract you could send it to one of our Admin or black out any personal information about yourself and family and post it here in thread. ( www.imgur.com has free reliable image hosting with no sign up ), someone may be able to see if there is a way out of said contract. Morally, spiritually and legally.

Sometimes seeing things as they are is painful, but it is always better now than later.

Originally Posted by Bodhi108

Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.

“I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
BILL HICKS,
1961-1994

I have always had that feeling of ... err really is he for real?.. like there was something wrong but couldn't put my finger on it. I will see If I can find it. You know somethings you believe and some you don't.. Well there is to much I do here.

I didnt read all the threads, I read to like 5 and skiped to comment.
I am somewhat fluent in korean, I read, write and speak korean. I was stationed in kroea for 2 yrs. have studied korean arts for over 20 yrs.

1. I have never heard of sun do sul (and "do" is a "way" so would go at the end)
2. The korean on his cert is a little weird.

Im stationed down at Fort Wood about two hours away. Have we attempted direct conversation or Gong Sau yet? I would be honored to provide either, as would any of the boys in my camp down here. Can't stand the dishonesty. Just shoot me a message and I'll get with y'all over details, shouldn't be a problem to run up this week or the next.

Im stationed down at Fort Wood about two hours away. Have we attempted direct conversation or Gong Sau yet? I would be honored to provide either, as would any of the boys in my camp down here. Can't stand the dishonesty. Just shoot me a message and I'll get with y'all over details, shouldn't be a problem to run up this week or the next.

Please read the thread in it's entirety. In MABS it is very important to do so, so you will know little things like Mr. Ray:

1. will not spar or train with anyone outside of his school (numerous friendly invitations have been sent to him each and every time a throwdown was held in St Louis ).

2. has stated he will press charges and get the cops involved if anyone attempts to visit the school with the intention of investigating or testing his art.

3. forbid his students from using his art outside of his school( church? ) and/or attending martial arts classes held at other schools. That of course includes Throwdowns and SparBBQ's.

Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 2/14/2011 3:51pm at .

Originally Posted by Bodhi108

Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.

“I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
BILL HICKS,
1961-1994

Wow, this has to be the longest lasting thread I have EVER seen ANYWHERE! It looks like it has been going on for about FOUR YEARS!

I never would have spent three hours reading a thread about any other topic. But I could not pull myself away from the topic of this particular thread: Master Stephen C. Ray.

A lot has been said here about Master Ray; most of it is rumor, innnuendo, and gossip. There is some truth here, and it is very sad.

I cannot tell you all of the details, because if I did, I would immediately identifiable by Master Ray, who pops in here from time to time. Maybe he'll figure it out anyway. It's not like I don't have the guts to tell him these things face to face. I have. He just doesn't get it, so I don't feel the need to tear open old wounds again.

I can tell you this: I was Master Ray's student from very early on, along with my children. We were some of his most loyal students. We stuck with him through some tough times, but in the end, enough was enough, and we had to leave.

Let me say first of all, that my family and I are all Christians. We (including my children) are very well versed in Scripture (the Holy Bible), and I feel that I am qualified to speak on the topic of what Christianity is and isn't.

If I got started, I could probably DOUBLE the size of this thread with individual stories that illustrate what I'm talking about. Many would give away my identity, so I will probably spare you the stories. But let me tell you about some of the good and bad of STLMAC.

- Master Ray is an excellent teacher in many regards. He had many ways of making martial arts fun and interesting for families who were participating, and those who were watching. He is talented in a wide array of martial arts, and he is able to effectively teach the techniques that he knows.

- STLMAC had a family atmosphere that was unlike any other dojang that I have ever seen. The people there really cared about each other, and students and leadership would go out of their way to help each other inside the dojang and out. Whether it be assisting with forms and one-steps, or giving extra encouragement when needed, students and family members would go out of their way to help and build each other up. Master Ray actively tried to foster this kind of environment. One of the things that got us old guys excited about going, even when we didn't feel like it, was to go see our "family."

- Master Ray was very insistent that martial arts is not about learning how to hurt people, but about learning confidence in one's ability to defend oneself and his or her loved ones. People who came in with a tough-guy attitude were quickly corrected.

- A lot of very dopey, hyperactive, or bashful young children came in there and left with new confidence in themselves. Master Ray really tried to reach out to them and to encourage others in the dojang to do the same.

NEUTRAL:

- Master Ray, when he got enough high belts, eventually would teach about half of the class. The "high-belts" would run the students through exercises, drill, and forms. Usually, during the forms, Master Ray would pop out of his office and go to each student, one by one, and show them their form, with the assistant watching. He would then turn the student over to a high belt to practice it again and again while he went to the next student. After each student had been shown, we would usually do something different (he was very creative about the games and team-building exercises he would have us do), and we would either do a game, a drill, a self-defense technique, some grappling move, or something like that. It was the high-point of the lesson, and it was Master Ray's forte.

- Although Master Ray relied heavily on "high belts" who often didn't have the technique down completely for these initial parts of class, it was often very good for the high belt, who got a chance to reinforce to him or herself through teaching. I actually liked that part.