I think it was Lao Tzu who said that Good and Evil are diseases of the mind.

Good and evil (in the moral sense) essentially mean whatever you want them to mean and every culture has its own definition (though there is an overwhelming consensus is some areas). I think a much more objective and universal criteria would be not to ask if an action is good or bad, but whether it in benevolent or malevolent.

For example: Adolf Hitler believed that murdering six million jews was a 'good' action. He cited what he believed to be facts such as:

* Jews are parisites who live off of the toil of others through practices like usury, renting, and lawyering.* They refuse to integrate culturally with the nations they inhabit and thus have no allegience to Germany or Germans.* They see all gentiles as subhuman.

Therefore, killing the jews is a good idea.

But what if we replace the word 'good' with 'benevolent'. Is killing six million people (jews or gentiles) a benevolent action? Of course not!

Good and evil are phantoms created by theologians that have no root in human experience. They are theological spooks designed to scare the ignorant. Whenever you catch yourself asking whether something is good or evil, switch to benevolent versus malevolent. I think that you will find that it clears up your thinking and points you in the right direction.

"The first thing you have to understand is that I don't believe in ANYTHING."-Arahata Osho

Adumbra wrote: I think a much more objective and criteria would be not to ask if an action is good or bad, but whether it in benevolent or malevolent. For example: Adolf Hitler believed that murdering six million jews was a 'good' action.

Benevolence really means wishing well for others. Hitler may have had good wishes for 9some of) the German people, or he may have just been using everyone for his own power trip and didn't really care about anybody else at all.

So, I think what you are saying is, the universal criteria might be one's motivation?...

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

Yes and who is to say where the center of the balance scale is to be located?

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days; I fled Him, down the arches of the years; I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways, Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears, I hid from Him, and under running laughter. Up vistaed hopes I sped; And shot, precipitated, Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears, From those strong Feet that followed, followed after. But with unhurrying chase, And unperturbèd pace, Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, They beat - and a Voice beat - More instant than the Feet - ‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

Adumbra wrote:Benevolence really means wishing well for others. Hitler may have had good wishes for 9some of) the German people, or he may have just been using everyone for his own power trip and didn't really care about anybody else at all.

So, I think what you are saying is, the universal criteria might be one's motivation?...

Hitler did wish good for the pure Germans. So some of his acts are benevolen, and really we can only classify acts to benevolent and maleovent, rather then classifying characters as such.

zAnt wrote:Hitler did wish good for the pure Germans. So some of his acts are benevolen, and really we can only classify acts to benevolent and maleovent, rather then classifying characters as such.

I think you'll find that Hitler was motivated by a hyper-egotistical wish for absolute power at any cost, rather than a wish to benefit "pure" Germans. Somebody that wishes well for "pure" Germans would not send 6,630,000 to 8,680,000 of them to die, unless of course you consider wishing people dead is benevolent.

zAnt wrote:Hitler did wish good for the pure Germans. So some of his acts are benevolen, and really we can only classify acts to benevolent and maleovent, rather then classifying characters as such.

I think you'll find that Hitler was motivated by a hyper-egotistical wish for absolute power at any cost, rather than a wish to benefit "pure" Germans. Somebody that wishes well for "pure" Germans would not send 6,630,000 to 8,680,000 of them to die, unless of course you consider wishing people dead is benevolent.

[Sorry innocents for the HEAVY post - but enough of this no karma nonsense.]

Excuse me zAntYou want to bet? This is a real question.

Hitler was not benevolent in any way. He and those who followed him reaped the crop of their ripened Karma.

Sometimes death is a good thing. It is sad, but necessary. The greater good ALWAYS prevails.

Good makes good and bad makes bad. This is how the universe is hard wired.

Eighteen levels of hellThe headless ghost of Yue Fei confronting the recently deceased spirit of Qin Hui in the sixth court. The plaque held by the attendant on the left reads: "Qin Hui's ten wicked crimes." From a 19th century Chinese Hell Scroll.

The concept of the eighteen hells started in the Tang Dynasty. The Buddhist text Wen Diyu Jing (問地獄經) mentioned 134 worlds of hell, but was simplified to the Eighteen Levels of Hell for convenience. Sinners feel pain and agony just like living human beings when they are subjected to the tortures listed below. They cannot "die" from the torment because when the ordeal is over, their bodies will be restored to their original states for the torture to be repeated. The following is a list of common punishments and tortures in the eighteen levels of hell:

Mountain of Knives: Sinners are made to shed blood by climbing a mountain with sharp blades sticking out. Some depictions show offenders climbing trees with knives or sharp thorns sticking out from trunks and branches. Cauldron torture: Sinners are fried in oil cauldrons. Some depictions show offenders being steamed instead of being fried. Dismemberment: Sinners' bodies are dismembered by various means, including, but not limited to, the following: Sawing Carving Slicing into half Mashing or pounding into pulp Crushed by heavy rocks or boulders Run over by vehicles Grinding torture: Sinners are put into a grinding machine and ground into a bloody pulp. Tortures involving fire: Burning: Sinners are set aflame or cast into fiery infernos. Paolao torture: Sinners are stripped naked and made to climb a large metal cylinder with a fire lit at its base. Boiling liquid torture: Sinners have boiling liquids forced down their throats or poured on parts of their bodies. Tortures involving removal of body parts or organs: Tongue-ripping Eye-gouging Heart-digging Disembowelment: Sinners have their internal organs dug out. Skinning Slicing off fingers and toes Ice World: Sinners are frozen in ice. Some depictions show unclothed sinners suffering from frostbite in an icy world. Their bodies eventually fall apart or break into pieces. Scales and hooks torture: Sinners have hooks pierced into their bodies and are hung upside down. Some depictions show sinners having nails hammered into their bodies (similar to crucifixion). Pool of Blood: Sinners are cast into a pool of blood. Blood spills from all body orifices. Tortures involving animals: Sinners are trampled by cattle, gored by animals with horns or tusks, mauled or eaten by predators, stung or bitten by poisonous species etc. Avīci: The period of suffering in this chamber is the longest and it is reserved for sinners who have committed heinous crimes, including the Five Grave Offences.

Some literature refers to eighteen types of hells or to eighteen hells for each type of punishment. Some religious or literature books say that wrongdoers who were not punished when they were alive are punished in the hells after death.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24] [25][26] [27][28][29]------------------------------------------------------------------------Sincerely suggest you rethink your position. The 18 hells are the easy side of things. You can ask Hitler.

Best,

ob

Last edited by oldbob on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

oldbob wrote:Good makes good and bad makes bad. This is how the universe is hard wired.

Everything is interconnected.My parents (Americans) were brought together by the events of WW2. I am here indirectly because of that. Is that good or bad?In fact, it is hard to grasp how much that war changed the worldThe universe isn't hard-wired at all,and especially not for the good/bad preferences of puny earthlings.

But more to the point,people do all sorts of terrible things, thinking that they are doing good things, believing that such actions will result in something positive.it doesn't matter what you call them...benevolent, good...without wisdom, we usually just perpetuate samsara....

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

oldbob wrote:Good makes good and bad makes bad. This is how the universe is hard wired.

Everything is interconnected.My parents (Americans) were brought together by the events of WW2. I am here indirectly because of that. Is that good or bad?In fact, it is hard to grasp how much that war changed the worldThe universe isn't hard-wired at all,and especially not for the good/bad preferences of puny earthlings.

But more to the point,people do all sorts of terrible things, thinking that they are doing good things, believing that such actions will result in something positive.it doesn't matter what you call them...benevolent, good...without wisdom, we usually just perpetuate samsara....

PadmaVonSamba wrote:people do all sorts of terrible things, thinking that they are doing good things, believing that such actions will result in something positive.it doesn't matter what you call them...benevolent, good...without wisdom, we usually just perpetuate samsara....

Old Bob, each person is entitled to a point of view. You may not agree with zAnt or Viniketa in their statements.This is fine, but one must also remember to further progress on our path, we must have wisdom, compassion and understanding......

Not judgment.

Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them~The Buddha~

the concepts of "100% evil" or "100% good" are absurd, for many reasons,not the least of which is the idea of dividing ethics up into measurable hundredths....

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth. Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

PadmaVonSamba wrote:people do all sorts of terrible things, thinking that they are doing good things, believing that such actions will result in something positive.it doesn't matter what you call them...benevolent, good...without wisdom, we usually just perpetuate samsara....

Old Bob, each person is entitled to a point of view. You may not agree with zAnt or Viniketa in their statements.This is fine, but one must also remember to further progress on our path, we must have wisdom, compassion and understanding......

I wouldn't think I'd be attacked from this of all places. Old Bob, I respect your opinion, but I do not respect you wishing me hell. It reminds me of Christianity, and it surprises me.

A little back story of me, I am a historian. I mainly study the lives of those we consider extremist. Like Hitler, Stalin, Zedong, and men of that source. And also the Soviet Union.I am not a Buddhist, not at this point, but I wish to be considered one in the future.

Have you ever been in Hitlers shoes?

Once, when he was studying art, He lived in a dorm with a man whom was Jewish. Hitler was going to his classes and it was raining outside. His room-mate offered him his coat before he left the dorm. Much later, when he has became the Dictator of Germany, and his plan of extermination was coming intact, he made sure that his friend was never harmed. He shipped him out of the country, and to somewhere safe. Although he created this reign of terror, he made benevolent decision. But he by no means was a benevolent person.

This is why I said people should not be judged by those two words, only their actions should.