But if everything were to be cancelled, what would the winning Remainers be doing to placate the 48.5% of voters who wanted to leave? After all, we keep being told that leaving has to be done in such a way as to mollify those who didn't want to; so surely if there were a vote to go back in it couldn't be wholly in, could it? (And would we get another referendum a year or two after if we didn't like the result in the previous one?)

If it 'doesn't really matter' if London or Brussels set the rules, you shouldn't mind it being London. Our parliament and the EC are not 'equally-unaccountable', the EC cannot be gainsaid, whereas our governments can be removed.

It is those giving the orders to an EU army that would be unaccountable; Russia will not attack NATO, it never has and doesn't start fights it doesn't think it can win.

Don't put words in my mouth, I don't insult any country, I do recognise differences and national characteristics, and interests that aren't shared. What about what is insulting to us? I can travel to Japan tomorrow with no need for any visa hassle, or Mexico, or Thailand, or India. My father travelled across Europe before the EU or its predecessor European Community existed, he had no problems, he was in business and had money to spend and services to provide - this is normal across the world and free travel with other countries, including those in the EU will continue.

It is good that you are honest enough to admit that you don't care for our nation or country; but it leaves me at a total loss as to why, or if, you were in UKIP at all if this is the case. To say that you have experienced a Damascene conversion is something of an understatement.

What you have called 'progress', with regard to forty years in the EC / EU is only so if you want an ever closer union and the end of the UK as a nation state. Free trade was the reason for joining, nothing else; the UK was lied to, repeatedly regarding loss of sovereignty. Progress? No, the continued undermining of our country was what really took place.

You have tried a bit of patronising, no-go I am afraid. I have lived in and worked in several countries in Europe and visited many more, all I think. I have friends in many of them and speak two languages well and a couple more pretty poorly; I like the Continent, I get on with the people, but I still don't want to be part of a European Union. We had German friends here last year, we didn't walk around 'not mentioning the War', they are friends - but I still don't want to be in a European Union with them. I am not interested in Olde England, being predominantly of Welsh descent, but I do know that regardless how much I - or you - may share in common with someone from Berlin, we share infinitely more with someone from Newtownards or Newcastle, or even New South Wales or New England for that matter.

Fortunately, in our excellent democracy, most people share my view of the EU.

You live in Wales, yes?
Can Wales leave the uk? What's the difference? Except the uk chose to be in the eu, can't really say the same about Scotland, regarding the uk

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As has already been stated, Wales and England are quite happy together and being together with our fellow countrymen in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Were public opinion here to show major support for a vote to leave the UK, we would have a referendum on the matter. The last major poll regarding Welsh independence from the UK was carried out after the Scottish referendum by ICM for BBC Wales, I think the support for independence came in at 3%. Obviously if you go to the back end of Ceredigion or Llyn that will increase greatly, but nationally it's not very popular. The UK has now chosen not to be in the EU ; no other country in the EU is now able to make that decision for itself . Spot the difference between the UK and EU there? We wouldn't keep anyone who didn't want to remain, and we wouldn't try to punish them if they did.

An empire can be described as a number of countries or states ruled by or under the power of an oligarchy; such a description perfectly applies to the EU and the EC. Anyone stupid enough to say at one time that they don't care for democracy or what happens in their own country, but to represent themselves as contemptuous of 'empire' while actively supporting one, needs to study more. ,

It's a fact that my German visitors say that Germans would probably vote for Gexit at the moment if they were given a chance. They believe the EU has left the people behind and gone too far too fast. They are fed up of rewilding over there with losses of sheep and lambs due to reintroduction of wolves and farmers land being requisitioned and flooded to recreate bogs. There is something of a backlash against the Green Fascist EU agenda. They are also mightily fed up of subsidising the Greeks and other southern EU basket cases.

The hijacking of the EU parliament by the leftist Green parties is the biggest problem faced by the EU. What it needed was for these people to be put back in their place and their powers curbed not to destroy the whole system.

Actually I'm just not sure about anything any more. But I foresee a lot of chaos and heartache if we proceed with a Brexit. Sure I agree the EU has big problems but they could have been worked out and will be worked out in the fullness of time, with patience and reasoning.

In the meantime I continue trading and taking opportunities where they arise. One small upside is that there is more money to be made in times of turbulence than when everything is running smoothly.

It's a fact that my German visitors say that Germans would probably vote for Gexit at the moment if they were given a chance. They believe the EU has left the people behind and gone too far too fast. They are fed up of rewilding over there with losses of sheep and lambs due to reintroduction of wolves and farmers land being requisitioned and flooded to recreate bogs. There is something of a backlash against the Green Fascist EU agenda. They are also mightily fed up of subsidising the Greeks and other southern EU basket cases.

The hijacking of the EU parliament by the leftist Green parties is the biggest problem faced by the EU. What it needed was for these people to be put back in their place and their powers curbed not to destroy the whole system.

Actually I'm just not sure about anything any more. But I foresee a lot of chaos and heartache if we proceed with a Brexit. Sure I agree the EU has big problems but they could have been worked out and will be worked out in the fullness of time, with patience and reasoning.

In the meantime I continue trading and taking opportunities where they arise. One small upside is that there is more money to be made in times of turbulence than when everything is running smoothly.

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Your German visitors concerns would concur with many French (farmers anyway) here.

At base the most important thing to me is sovereignty, no matter how you water it down, or try to deflect from this by mentioning what you think are good points to EU membership, there is no way that you can square the circle of EU membership and retaining sovereignty, it just can't be done. I know that the sovereignty isn't held to be of such value by some others; that's fair enough, but the fact still has to be recognised and conceded that there is no way at all for people who share my view to be persuaded that the EU in anything like its current or reasonably predicted forms, can be acceptable to us. Free trade, yes; visa-free travel, yes; cooperation in the fields of science, education and security, yes. But no more.

Large scale, uncontrollable immigration and the effects it has are also a serious concern to me; but where, on a scale of 1 - 100, sovereignty is 100, mass immigration is only at, perhaps, 35 or 40. Others will have differing values for the things mentioned, but most people I have come across who support Brexit are more or less in agreement with these numbers.

Patience and reasoning with successive ECs have got precisely nowhere. They just won't and - if they are true to their oaths of office - can't deflect from their aim of a US of E. Please understand that it is all this and, unapologetically, love of our own country that means we weren't, aren't and won't be persuaded that the EU's goal of 'ever closer union' is a good thing for this country to be part of.

So where does that leave us? Clearly there are two mutually exclusive alternatives, to remain in / re-join a seemingly inexorably unidirectional EU, or to leave. The UK chose to leave, had it not done so it is safe to assume that victorious Remainers would have said, quite reasonably, 'You lost, we understand you are sad, but that is democracy. Now, join in and work for the common good' - maybe some would have added 'or go away'. We would not have had anywhere to go to, it might be argued that disappointed Europhiles have.

Nevertheless, we keep having the same points raised again and again and again. There was a clear benefit to discussion before the Referendum, I hope I influenced some to vote to leave and I know that Remainers wished the same for their cause. But now, other than being a place for the throwing of vitriol, this part of the forum - the 'Brexit' threads - doesn't appear to have any purpose. This view is clearly not one-sided, Leavers must surely feel the same; so, other than those purely intent on aggravation, shall we call it a day?

At base the most important thing to me is sovereignty, no matter how you water it down, or try to deflect from this by mentioning what you think are good points to EU membership, there is no way that you can square the circle of EU membership and retaining sovereignty, it just can't be done. I know that the sovereignty isn't held to be of such value by some others; that's fair enough, but the fact still has to be recognised and conceded that there is no way at all for people who share my view to be persuaded that the EU in anything like its current or reasonably predicted forms, can be acceptable to us. Free trade, yes; visa-free travel, yes; cooperation in the fields of science, education and security, yes. But no more.

Large scale, uncontrollable immigration and the effects it has are also a serious concern to me; but where, on a scale of 1 - 100, sovereignty is 100, mass immigration is only at, perhaps, 35 or 40. Others will have differing values for the things mentioned, but most people I have come across who support Brexit are more or less in agreement with these numbers.

Patience and reasoning with successive ECs have got precisely nowhere. They just won't and - if they are true to their oaths of office - can't deflect from their aim of a US of E. Please understand that it is all this and, unapologetically, love of our own country that means we weren't, aren't and won't be persuaded that the EU's goal of 'ever closer union' is a good thing for this country to be part of.

So where does that leave us? Clearly there are two mutually exclusive alternatives, to remain in / re-join a seemingly inexorably unidirectional EU, or to leave. The UK chose to leave, had it not done so it is safe to assume that victorious Remainers would have said, quite reasonably, 'You lost, we understand you are sad, but that is democracy. Now, join in and work for the common good' - maybe some would have added 'or go away'. We would not have had anywhere to go to, it might be argued that disappointed Europhiles have.

Nevertheless, we keep having the same points raised again and again and again. There was a clear benefit to discussion before the Referendum, I hope I influenced some to vote to leave and I know that Remainers wished the same for their cause. But now, other than being a place for the throwing of vitriol, this part of the forum - the 'Brexit' threads - doesn't appear to have any purpose. This view is clearly not one-sided, Leavers must surely feel the same; so, other than those purely intent on aggravation, shall we call it a day?

You are one of the last people with whom I want to disagree about Europe, but I regret you are wrong. The EU tag was just a name change from EEC.

Regrettably the majority (by a big margin) of those who had a vote at the time chose to remain a member of what is now the EU. I sometimes think that the only people who knew what it was all about were those few with whom I had personal contact.

Nothing has changed on the EEC/EU side. They always, and by "always" I mean from the very institution of the EEC by the Treaty of Rome in 1957, intended, and I quote:

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe,

I have to object when fellow Brexiteers use the excuse that we originally chose to remain in something that we did not know we were in, believing us to be a member of some other organisation. No excuses. Ignorance is no defence. Of course politicians lied to the voters 40 odd years ago. Of course politicians lied to the voters in recent years. That is what politicians do - lie. The biggest in recent times no doubt was the Bliar himself. You remember "Weapons of mass destruction"?

The UK decided to remain in the EEC/EU. After more than 40 years we were given a chance to change our collective minds. I am quite happy that another referenbum is held around about 2060. We waited over 40 years. Let them wait 40+years, but whatever you do, please do not repeat that we did not choose to be in the EU (which is just the present name of the EEC) because we did. Not all of us, but we did agree to remain by a majority vote. Those of us opposed to the idea accepted the democratic decision, which of course we were obliged to do, because not to accept such a decision is totally contrary to the way a civilsed country and its populace behaves.

I respect the result of the referendum and I respect the elected government. I will do my best whatever the outcome.

But I am entitled to a personal opinion even if it is a changjng one. I look at facts as they arise. I have never seen much merit in blundering on regardless. Sometimes we need to change course or even reverse. I don't like dogma or sticking to an idea regardless of how unworkable it becomes.

It comes down to simple practical matters for me. Trade, freedom of movement and the border with Eire, efficiency of scale of standardisation. All of these are much more important than this illusive idea of sovereignty.

I respect the result of the referendum and I respect the elected government. I will do my best whatever the outcome.

But I am entitled to a personal opinion even if it is a changjng one. I look at facts as they arise. I have never seen much merit in blundering on regardless. Sometimes we need to change course or even reverse. I don't like dogma or sticking to an idea regardless of how unworkable it becomes.

It comes down to simple practical matters for me. Trade, freedom of movement and the border with Eire, efficiency of scale of standardisation. All of these are much more important than this illusive idea of sovereignty.

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To which I could fairly reply that endless whinging isn't respecting the outcome; that anyone talking in a derisory way about 'blundering on', 'dogma' and 'sticking to an idea regardless of how unworkable it becomes' should think long and hard about the close relationship between that opinion, the EU and hypocrisy; that if you think sovereignty is illusory, you don't understand it and never will.

Which all goes to prove my point about the irreconcilability of our relative positions and the pointlessness in continually kicking the ars* out of the subject. We have all heard it all before and, short of someone coming along with an entirely new viewpoint from either side, it is getting repetitive and boring.

I respect the result of the referendum and I respect the elected government. I will do my best whatever the outcome.

But I am entitled to a personal opinion even if it is a changjng one. I look at facts as they arise. I have never seen much merit in blundering on regardless. Sometimes we need to change course or even reverse. I don't like dogma or sticking to an idea regardless of how unworkable it becomes.

It comes down to simple practical matters for me. Trade, freedom of movement and the border with Eire, efficiency of scale of standardisation. All of these are much more important than this illusive idea of sovereignty.

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You don't have to respect the outcome of any referendum or election result so long as your campaign against it falls within the rules. That's what living in a democracy is all about. I don't remember the Brexiteers in previous referendums saying "OK" it's the will of the people we will just forget about it.

You don't have to respect the outcome of any referendum or election result so long as your campaign against it falls within the rules. That's what living in a democracy is all about. I don't remember the Brexiteers in previous referendums saying "OK" it's the will of the people we will just forget about it.

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There weren't previous referenda, there was one. It is implicit in what you write that you are all for a continued - never-ending - rehashing of the 'arguments'; go for it, I shall watch with interest and be fascinated to see what's achieved.

You don't have to respect the outcome of any referendum or election result so long as your campaign against it falls within the rules. That's what living in a democracy is all about. I don't remember the Brexiteers in previous referendums saying "OK" it's the will of the people we will just forget about it.

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Hmm, when we had a referendum in 75', a single European act was not on the agenda, nor was the shite written in to the Lisbon treaty, so once those things happened, the 75' mandate was removed, yet no say until 2016, we put up with it and then got our way, rather than using big money to influence the public.

The remainers are whinging at every turn, even when told what would happen during the referendum, so whats the issue?

The mouth breathers that are whinging about actually leaving the Eu are wasting an immense time of their life refighting a done deal, the problem seems to be, those that lost this time have been soo used to winning centrist elections in the past, stuffing their views down other peoples throats that they know no better, well it's time to go back to school and reshape a better argument.

I would totally be alongside remainers, IF they called for a referendum every time a different approach within the EU was taken, but they wont, we all know the arsewipes want one referendum to remain in the Eu forever and have no say on it ever again, and it's convincing no one.

There weren't previous referenda, there was one. It is implicit in what you write that you are all for a continued - never-ending - rehashing of the 'arguments'; go for it, I shall watch with interest and be fascinated to see what's achieved.

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Yep, could have sworn we had some other European related referendum. Must be mixing up all the Scottish Welsh, NI referendums we have had in the past. Still doesn't change anything, the citizens of a democratic country have the right to pursue change for as long as they choose. However, this situation may not suite the hard right or left who are looking for greater control the country for their own ideological or nefarious means.

Yep, could have sworn we had some other European related referendum. Must be mixing up all the Scottish Welsh, NI referendums we have had in the past. Still doesn't change anything, the citizens of a democratic country have the right to pursue change for as long as they choose. However, this situation may not suite the hard right or left who are looking for greater control the country for their own ideological or nefarious means.

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Circles... you clearly think an unaccountable EC are better doing what they want with this country 'for their own ideological or nefarious means', I disagree and we both know these things already. Hence the boredom...

Circles... you clearly think an unaccountable EC are better doing what they want with this country 'for their own ideological or nefarious means', I disagree and we both know these things already. Hence the boredom...

(there should be a yawning emoji, the 'bored' one is not very good)

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Putting words in my mouth again, I have never mentioned the EC or what they may or may not be up to.

It won't be boring in a couple months when it all kicks off. No acceptable deal. Talks stalled. Mrs May over a barrel to the DUP. No acceptable solution to the border with Eire, to name but just one of the many difficulties that will arise......and it could all be avoided.

Nobody has come up with a workable solution to any of the problems, yet.

It won't be boring in a couple months when it all kicks off. No acceptable deal. Talks stalled. Mrs May over a barrel to the DUP. No acceptable solution to the border with Eire, to name but just one of the many difficulties that will arise......and it could all be avoided.

Nobody has come up with a workable solution to any of the problems, yet.

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Watching spreadsheet Phil today you get the feeling that the deals have already been done and dusted. With the theatre and drama of the talks just to keep us peasants amused.

It won't be boring in a couple months when it all kicks off. No acceptable deal. Talks stalled. Mrs May over a barrel to the DUP. No acceptable solution to the border with Eire, to name but just one of the many difficulties that will arise......and it could all be avoided.

Nobody has come up with a workable solution to any of the problems, yet.

Would one of you please elaborate on these statements? DRW wants to change the result, MS says we do not have to respect it.

What are "the rules" on changing the result of a ballot?

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In the UK Parliament is sovereign not the people, so the result of the referendum is purely advisory and this should have been spelled out clearly throughout the campaign. The elected government could have then chosen to ignore it or place certain caveats on the result if they felt it would not be in the best interests of the country, plus it would have been a strong negotiating tool with Brussels. However, they chose not to and we are now leaving in some woolly form or another that could well see us with many of the disadvantages of the EU and fewer of the advantages.

In the UK Parliament is sovereign not the people, so the result of the referendum is purely advisory and this should have been spelled out clearly throughout the campaign. The elected government could have then chosen to ignore it or place certain caveats on the result if they felt it would not be in the best interests of the country, plus it would have been a strong negotiating tool with Brussels. However, they chose not to and we are now leaving in some woolly form or another that could well see us with many of the disadvantages of the EU and fewer of the advantages.

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Nice for you to sit sunning yourself in France while the resulting riots raged in the UK. You are a theorist with no practical understanding of how and why this referendum took place. You are and will continue to be a bad loser to boot .