Welcome to DBSTalk

Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!

So, I'm confused. Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs? Is that somethign that can be changed with firmware or is it hardware? If the DirecTV boxes are not 1.4a compatible then how is any of this even an issue? Personally, I think 3D won't be sucessfull in the long run, but if I was looking, this kind of confusion would also drive me to reconsider that.

No they don't. At the highest they are 1.3 compliant.

However, the 3D portions of the 1.4a specifications are software based and not really hardware based. As far as a standard high speed HDMI cable is concerned, 1.3 and 1.4 are identical.

For example, the Ethernet over HDMI or the Micro connector cables are physically different from the standard high speed cable and would require the new 1.4 compliant HDMI chip set, but the implementation of 3D only relies on the high speed HDMI. In the case of 3D, 1.3 is equivalent to 1.4 (beyond 3D is another story).

Mike

Edited by Mike Bertelson, 04 August 2010 - 11:38 AM.clarification

µßSince it costs 1.66¢ to produce a penny, my 2¢ worth is really 3.32¢ worth. That 3.32¢ is my own and not the 3.32¢ of DIRECTV, Dish, or anyone else for that matter.

There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.

I think we are narrowing down to the real issue here.....

The issue is not the 3D signal formating. All legacy DLP 3D Ready TVs require an adaptor which when in place makes the TV look just like the new 2010 3D TV models. The DTV DVR will recognize the adaptor without any problems. (the 2010 model DLPs TVs not being on the authorized list is a separate issue)

The issue is that hundreds of thousands of legacy HDMI 1.3 AVRs cannot pass the EDID information through to the DVR which requires it to provide seamless operation for a select group of newer 3D TVs. A limited number of models of HDMI 1.4(a) compliant AVRs started to become available earlier this year but the cost to upgrade can be between $500 to several thousand depending on the particular systems needs. This cost is prohibitive for many customers, especially in this economy!!!

Using myself as an example I just finished moving my main audio/visual equipment to a new location and purchased the Yamaha RX-V3900 for about $1800. The replacement model RX-V3067 will not even be available until late this year and will cost between $2K to $3K.

If the solution in the attached can be implemented then I would be able to put off this purchase for several years. I am confident that a vast majority of AVR users are in the same situation as I am...

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...

Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!

That's a difficult matter of terminology. I think the answer is yes, since HDMI 1.4a places no special requirements on 3D signal sources, other than producing one of the 3D formats of the spec. You sometimes see people answering this question the other way, because the satellite receiver HDMI chips were made for an earlier generation of HDMI processing, but the band width of those chips is irrelevant for signal sources, just so long as it is sufficient for the 1080i-compatible SbS 3D video that the DirecTV boxes are producing.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...

Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!

I agree with Geaux,I and others have been trying to get the Mit's adapter to work with the Gefen detective with infrequent success. Recorded content from when the channels were not greyed out work fine, indicating that the equipment works. Then EDID restrictions were apparently added to the guide causing the inability to watch or record.Until last night !Kevin 6545 got it up and working with the channels lit up. I also have it working even shutting down entire system and changing channels in and out of 3d.I believe, or hope, that DTV may be working on lessening EDID restrictions as we chat.I wish they would communicate in someway what their intentions are and when to expect changes.I can't speak regarding the new AVR's but it may be worth a try this morning to see if there is any difference.I don't think much of either Mit's (Promise upgrade a few years ago.) or Samsung (No support of their 3d ready customers including lack of checkerboard on their new 3d BR players). Panasonic and DTV... Great. Just as long as the roughly 4.5 million 3d ready DLP's get access. Including Samsung sets with an EDID spoof tool.Currently, the 3d on the large DLP's is very impressive. The sets are cheap compared to the smaller, new type, LCD's.DTV, if your working at making it compatible, let us know...Kevin's instructions from last night can be had here:avsforum> 3d central > 3d displays>Mitsubishi 3d checkerboard converter+Gefen HDMI Detective= 3d on Samsung... Post #127 (Sorry, it wouldn't let me post a link due to lack of posts.)I got the same results with a couple less resets indicated a couple posts after.JIM

So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.

So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.

1) We know both EDID information and VSI frames are used.
2) We know a spoofer can make things work.
3) We know an adapter can make things work for some TVs.
4) We have at least one example of a TV not on the supported list that tries to work...
5) The original "supported" list did say that others will work too.

Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.

Alas, we can't "really" be certain about a white list from the fact that at least one TV worked that wasn't on the supported list. That TV might have a bogus EDID--though it does hint toward an absence of a white list.

To me the really important point was the "others might work too" clause. I'm pretty certain DIRECTV is not using a white list, but rather a stringent feature list through VSI. If the handshake isn't correct, they can't reliably support 3d. (at this time.)

That all said, the standards are still shifting. If nothing else, the interoperability parts are still being tested and defined.

Perhaps DIRECTV will permit a flag to "force enable" 3D. Or perhaps in their analysis of 3D ready TVs that they might try to force enable, they find it isn't worth that effort at this time. I don't know enough of what the VSI bits are used for. If there is anything, anything whatsoever relating to copy protection, you know DIRECTV will not create a force enable flag....

Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.

Whether you call it a FIX for something broken, or a SOLUTION, to support currently unsupported customers, doesn't really matter. It is still a cost/benefit analysis on whether it should be done. Their job is to make money. If they can make more money leaving something broke, that's what they should do. (Of course, estimating the cost/benefit of angry vs happy customers is not an exact science.)

The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format.

As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.

Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.

If/when they start charging a monthly fee for 3D channels then it would be in their best interest to have the programming available to the largest customer base possible. I'd bet they would find a work around then. How much money are they making from 'unsupported MRV' subscribers?

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) ...

During this same time I was able to see the SbS format on my Mits DLP even tho I have an HR20-700. Wouldn't it be nice it they let us force 3D channels and I could keep my HR20 instead of having to upgrade that as well.....

By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.

Yes, the issue is complex and you won't make everyone happy. If you allow an override, you will make people with older AVRs happy, but have to support people who don't have 3D TVs and don't understand that they don't have 3D TVs.

As long as 3D TVs are a small subset of the market and they are not charging extra for 3D programming, it is hard to make a business case that they should make the change.

However, if 3D catches on and becomes very popular, I think they will be forced into making this change. There will be too many people with 3D TVs and non-compliant AVRs. (At least in this house, AVRs have a long life span.) They will have to consider a way to make that group happy.

Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.

Cheers,Tom

We know exactly how the "spoofer" works, and you guessed correct. It simply reads the EDID (and obviously the VSI) from a display, saves it, and always sends that particular EDID info regardless of what display is connected afterward.

The company selling the kit for Samsung DLP owners have pre-programmed the Geffen spoofer with a Mits EDID, which is compatible with Directv.

If Directv would ease up on the EDID and VSI restrictions (such as mentioned by raclevel), this would allow most HDMI 1.3 AVRs to work, and more than likely the HR20 series to work also.

As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.

Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..

Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..

Does this mean that if you buy a new 3D capable HDTV and want to watch DirecTv in 3D you can't do it until your HDTV is added to the white list. Is that part of the 3D standard?

I am not sure if DirecTv has changed the encoding for its 3D signals again but myself and others have now been able to restore the 3D broadcasts on our HDTVs. Once your DirecTv receiver believes your HDTV is not 3D capable and greys out the channels then it is very difficult to restore the 3D channels for watching. I still believe that there needs to be a work around to resolve this problem.

DirecTv if you did change the 3D encoding then please accept this thank you from a long time customer and keep up the good work. I am using my HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver to listen to programs in 5.1 but I had to switch to toslink as my HDMI sound was limited to 2.0 even though I have Dolby Digital enabled in the audio settings. If DirecTv would not rely on the EDID information to determine audio capabilities then this problem I believe would go away.

On a positive note, I am very pleased with the 3D picture when it works.

1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.

2. The EDID /VSI restrictions that DirecTv uses try to determine what type of equipment you use and only allow that many audio channels to be broadcast. Many of us are limited to 2.0 audio through our HDMI connection into our A/V Receivers because of this. There is a menu selection where the customer can select to enable Dolby Digital (5.1) but the DirecTv receiver is ignoring the customers preference and using the EDID /VSI information instead to output audio instead. It is my understanding that other devices allow the user to control the audio output but this is not the system that Directv uses.

If someone else is aware of other issues then please list them as I am sure there is something I missed.

1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.

2. The EDID /VSI restrictions that DirecTv uses try to determine what type of equipment you use and only allow that many audio channels to be broadcast. Many of us are limited to 2.0 audio through our HDMI connection into our A/V Receivers because of this. There is a menu selection where the customer can select to enable Dolby Digital (5.1) but the DirecTv receiver is ignoring the customers preference and using the EDID /VSI information instead to output audio instead. It is my understanding that other devices allow the user to control the audio output but this is not the system that Directv uses.

If someone else is aware of other issues then please list them as I am sure there is something I missed.

2. I think you may be misunderstanding what the menu option does, or perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. The menu option controls PCM vs Dolby Digital, not 2.0 vs 5.1. While PCM is limited to 2.0, Dolby Digital can also be 2.0. Dolby can also be 5.1, but that depends on the broadcast. Many shows are just not broadcast in 5.1.

Are you saying that you have are seeing a shows that you know are broadcast in 5.1, and you are only getting 2.0? And is it PCM 2.0 or Dolby Digital 2.0?

I can no longer test this easily, since the only place I have an AVR also has a TV that can accept Dolby Digital. (At least I assume it does, since it can output Dolby Digital to an AVR.)