Lately I keep on coming across website after “Christian” website that questions the pre-Tribulation rapture. It really looks like some people are making a special effort to eliminate this teaching. Rather than refute the rapture with Scripture, however, what usually suffices for debate is to associate the teaching with Jesuits, and Catholics, like Emmanuel Lacunza and Margaret McDonald; Guilt by association.

All this, of course, in spite of the fact that the Roman Catholic church is officially opposed to this teaching. The idea of a future millennial reign of Christ is totally opposed by the idea that the Catholic Church is reigning in Christ’s place today. If the Roman Catholic Church is ruling and reigning on earth today, in Christ’s place, then there would be no need for Him to come and set up an earthly reign, Himself.

For the record, I believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture because this is what the bible teaches, and it matters not who else believed, or believes this doctrine. If there are, or were, Catholics who believed in a pre-tribulation rapture, it is in spite of the teachings of their Church, not because of them.

Anyway, I read Margaret McDonald’s statement a couple of years ago, and it certainly does not resemble the rapture as taught by Dispensationalists. Even if it did, that would be no different than the demon-possessed slave girl saying that Paul was a servant of God in Acts 16:16-18

16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

What she said was true, but it didn’t come from God but from a demon, in order to cast doubt on the gospel. Guilt by association. If Paul was associated with a demon-possessed slave girl, it would cast doubt on the gospel. He understood this and so cast out the devil.

In the old days Millennialists, or Chiliasts, were subject to public beatings, imprisonment, and death, so I suppose there has been some progress made in the anti-Millennialist camp. Or, maybe, it just isn’t socially acceptable to do those things today.

I was going through some of the pertinent Scriptures this week and I thought it would be appropriate to go over some of them again.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive andremain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Here we have the most referenced rapture passage in the New Testament. This is very clearly a snatch of believers from off of the face of the earth.

Notice the word “prevent’ in verse 15. This actually means “precede” and means that the saints in Christ who have died will receive their new bodies shortly, or immediately, before the living saints are taken off of the earth.

This passage in 1 Thessalonians is a direct reference to a passage in Isaiah 26. A look at that passage puts the “rapture”, the great snatch of believers, in context;

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:19-21

Here Isaiah is speaking, and prophesying of the End Times. In verse 19 he is stating that God’s dead men will be resurrected, and he expects to be raised himself at this time. This is not a general resurrection of all humanity, but only of the saints; they are specifically God’s dead men, or as Paul put it “the dead in Christ”. This is not only Israel, but all of God’s saints, up to that time. They will sing, for this is the resurrection of the saved. The lost will have nothing to sing about at their resurrection!

Notice that immediately after the resurrection of the saints, God calls his living saints to come into their chambers, and to hide there until the “indignation” is over. The indignation is the Great Tribulation period. This is the time that the Lord will bring unimagined horrors upon the earth, as judgments against humanity for their unbelief. This is the same “indignation” mentioned in Daniel 11:36, in relation to the Antichrist’s rule.

The implication of them hiding themselves “as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” is that once the indignation is done, they will come out of hiding, or in fact, return to earth. They will return to earth, at the end of the Tribulation, with Jesus.

As Paul said, “and so shall we ever be with the Lord”; If the Lord is in Heaven, then we will be with Him there, but when He returns to earth, then we will be coming back with Him to rule with Him here! The saints are the “clouds of Heaven” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 14:62).

The last verse is a reference to the Lord’s return at the end of the Tribulation period. He will come with righteous anger and will slaughter His enemies. When it says “the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” it is a reference to the final battle, Armageddon, where those who take the mark of the Beast will be slain in public, and left to rot in the open, unburied. They will be eaten by birds and wild animals.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. Revelation 19:17-18

Obviously, the dead of this war, will not be buried, in order for the prophecy of Isaiah 26:21 to be fulfilled.

So, here in Isaiah 26:19-21 we have a brief overview of the End Times events, in chronological sequence. Since it is brief, it cannot go into all of the pertinent details, but there is enough here that we can know that the true believers in Jesus Christ will be taken away from this earth, and will spend the Tribulation period in Heaven with the Lord.

17 Responses to Rapture? Of Whom? When?

You state that you believe that in the pre-trib rapture because that is what the bible teaches. I challenge your statement personally, and declare that your statement is NOT true in what you personally believe. You believe in the pre-trib rapture because that is what you were TAUGHT by MAN. The pretrib doctrine is man made, and one must get it through the teaching of men. The bible does NOT teach it. What I am declaring is TRUE. Your belief was passed down to you from someone teaching you or from the man made series movies or books, and NOT from studying the Word of God. Admit it! Can you honestly state that you were not taught the doctrine by man? No! In order to believe the doctrine one must believe a series of assumptions, and conjecture that is conjured up by the teaching of man. If you remove the assumptions and conjecture from your studying of the Word, the doctrine ceases to exist. Before Jesus speaks of what is to come, he states, be careful that no man deceive you. Paul also states this concerning what is to come in 2 Thess. 2:3. Yet the most widely received doctrine is one that is passed down by man’s word of mouth. I challenge you to study the Word WITHOUT the lenses of mans teaching. You will no longer believe what you think the bible teaches, but what the bible actually teaches.

I wish you were bold and courageous enough to give your real name. As it is I think that maybe you have something to hide? A person who is bold and courageous does not hide behind a fake name.

As for your contentions, yes, I grew up in the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists in Canada, and we had people of every eschatological stripe in our denomination. Some were Amillennialist, and others pre-millennial, I expect there were a few post-millennialists there too.

It was somewhat confusing for a young man. One person would teach one thing as fact, and then when you went to a different Sunday school class, the next year, you would get something else taught as fact. Some of our pastors were amillennial, and others pre-millennial!

Ultimately it came down to studying the Word. Even those with whom I have a lot in common, I cannot say I am in complete agreement with.

Dispensationalists teach that the rapture could happen at any time without warning.

This is what I was taught, but this is not what I teach. The bible is clear that there will be warnings before the rapture, although no man knows the day nor the hour.

As for 2 Thessalonians, you need to read the whole chapter, not only one verse. There is actually a two-fold unveiling of the Antichrist in that chapter. The Antichrist will be revealed (v3), and then the Antichrist will be revealed (v8). This is to two groups of people. Paul was not repeating himself.

First he will be revealed to the Church, and then after the rapture, he will be revealed to the world, only by then most will be deluded, and will not believe it.

Once again, I was not taught this in any Church. Most Christians read this and don’t see it. I found this on my own. Well, Okay, I was not on my own, but the Holy Spirit led me to it. It is perfectly in line with His words of Amos 3:7

“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

Nothing means nothing, and the biggest event in the history of the world will be preceded by warnings from His prophets, or those in the place of the prophets today, the true Church. So, the Church will have a chance to know who the Antichrist is, before the rapture takes place, but he will not be allowed to harm them. After that event, many will come to faith, and those will die by the millions, and will bring glory to the Lord in doing so!

To my knowledge no one is teaching this but me. If you know of someone, I would like to meet them!

Very clearly Isaiah 26 teaches a pre-tribulation rapture. Once again, no-one ever told me that this passage related to the rapture. It was not until I studied it on my own that the Lord led me to the rapture hidden in this Old Testament passage. He put it there for the Jews, who will come to faith after that event;

18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Verse 18 is Israel’s failure to lead the world to God, and so it is implied that they will be recalled, like a defective product, back to their place of manufacture…Israel.

Then we have the resurrection which Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. This is the first resurrection, for only His people, the believers will be resurrected. Jesus is the first of this resurrection, but there already were some Old Testament saints resurrected in Matthew 27:52. Later on, at the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 20:6) this resurrection will continue.

The indignation is the same event spoken of as “the indignation” in Daniel 11:36, the Tribulation, and His people, the Church, will be hidden in their “chambers” in Heaven as God’s displeasure is poured out on the earth.

The “chambers” of Isaiah 26:20 are the places Jesus referred to as “mansions” in John 14:2
“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”

The Greek here is “mone” or “monay” which means “a dwelling place”…a chamber, as in Isaiah 26:20! The Hebrew of Isaiah 26:20 is cheder, or Khed’er, a chamber, parlour, innermost or inward part, and Strongs defines it as “an apartment”. So Isaiah tells us that the Church is going to hide away from the Antichrist, and the Lord’s wrath, in dwelling places, and Jesus told us that those dwelling places are in Heaven, His father’s house!

This is indeed a pre-Tribulation rapture. I wonder why you hate it so much? I long to be with Him!

Yes I know, Jesus was a man, but He’s also God! That’s good enough for me!

That’s great if God is taking to you. Interesting that Dan. 11:36 happened prior to Jesus’ time of earth. This event of the gentiles sacrificing a pig on the alter in the temple allows the “reader to understand” in Matt. 24:15 where it states, “let the reader understand…” When Titus decimated the temple in 70 AD (which is the context, see vs. 1,2) and became an abomination by the gentiles decimating the courts of the temple where it was unlawful for them to be.

Isn’t the history of Daniel 11 amazing? It gives the absolute prophesy of all the kings and rulers up until the Roman rule where the Roman empire extended throughout a good portion of Europe but just outside the boundaries of Ammon, Edom and Moab mentioned in vs. 41. Verse 36 falls into perfect history of time of the abominable act of the pig being sacrificed. Interesting that Daniel 11 ends at the time of the Roman rule… Chaper 12 begins by saying, “At that time…”

At that time is the “time of trouble” that is the worst time ever for Israel. This time is mentioned 4 times in Scripture, often known as “the time of Jacob’s trouble.” This time is ASSUMED to be futuristic and the great tribulation. However it is not. Jer. 30,31 is the first to prophesy. Verse 7 mentioned this time, but what this time causes is a scattering vs. 10,11, throughout the whole earth Jer. 31:8. Isaiah tells us that once she is gathered she will never be scattered again. In 70 AD this scattering began, by 162 AD Jerusalem was considered exterminated of Jew. Zech 12:4 tells us that Jerusalem will be occupied by Jews at His return. How can at His return be the “worst time ever” for Jacob (Israel) in this case? Obvious conclusion: The time of Jacob’s trouble has come and passed. 6 million Jews were killed during the Roman times where the scattering began and 6 million Jews were killed by the Germans as the gathering happened in 1948 when Israel became a nation once again.

It is important to understand that the disciples asked Jesus when the temple would be destroyed …Mark 13. Most assume that Jesus is just speaking about the end times rather than 70 AD. But 70 AD was the context and topic of discussion. in Matt. 24, two questions are asked which include the time of the end. The pretrib doctrine ignores the fact that 70 AD is part of the equation. Matt. 24:21 is Jesus answering the disciples question about the temple being destroyed. Jesus did not blow their question off as the pretrib doctrine supposes.

Daniel 9:24-27 also discusses the time of the cross. Titus conquest was a 3.5 year conquest from 66 to 70 AD. Titus decimated the temple. This ended the daily sacrifices. It took half of a seven year period of time. He became an abomination by entering the courts unlawful for a gentile to enter. Some report that he declare himself to be god in the temple, (as was a true Roman form). I don’t know, I wasn’t there. It truly amazes me that the pretrib doctrine teaches that this act that fulfills verse 27 to a “T”, is yet to be fulfilled sometime in the future. Hello, the daily sacrifices HAVE BEEN ended for almost 2000 years! ….But….it’s Daniel’s 70’th week!

Wake up! Israel’s future is brighter than her past, and Daniel’s 70’th week is ancient history. No wonder the book of Revelation doesn’t mention the abomination of desolation.

As far as HOW you came you believe the pretrib doctrine, you attempted to sidestepped with by stating, “To my knowledge no one is teaching this but me. If you know of someone, I would like to meet them!” Yet you acknowledge that you were indeed taught the teaching you now hold through the dispensational teaching you received. I suggest coming to terms with yourself, you know exactly who they are and have already met them. Obviously you were taught it by man as I have come across all who hold this teaching are. Be careful that no man deceive you…

Dispensationalism is a false teaching that attempts to separate the Jews from the gentiles. The Word teaches us that the walls of separation have come down… Eph 2;11+,and that we are graphed in. It tells us that the time of Jacob’s trouble is futurist rather than history. By doing so it claims an unscriptural view of separation between the church and the Jews. Thus claiming that the “great tribulation” is for the Jews, caring no weight in it’s reasoning why. It creates a pick and choose which scriptures apply to whom and dumps all the bad scenarios on the Jews in true Nazi fashion. Jesus tells us that we are assigned to tribulation John 16:33, and that those who aren’t prepared for it will quickly stumble and calls them stony soil.. Mark 4. This is the great apostasy that Paul refers to in 2 Thess that is yet to come. We see this happening in the persecuted world. Many turn away when tribulation comes. I fear for my pretrib brothers who hold on to the false hope of being raptured out before hand. Only a pretribber will mock, “Where is the promise of His coming?” (2 Peter 3). Everyone else didn’t hold on to the lie.

First of all, I am not Dispensational, but I am pre-Trib. and this is something I have in common with them, but Dispensationalists are not the only pre-Tribulationists. I have gone way beyond the Dispensationalist understanding.

Because most of them are protestants, they have mixed the doctrines of Rome into their view of Scripture. As a result, while they are indeed correct on several things, their growth is somewhat stunted, as is yours.

There is still a wall of the old Temple still standing. I know it is “only” a retaining wall, but it was built for the Temple and was a part of the Temple complex. Jesus’ words of Matthew 24:2 have yet to be fulfilled. Matthew 24:2 “And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

His words were “all these things” meaning the entire Temple complex. This was not fulfilled in 70 AD, its final fulfilment is a yet future event.

I expect that wall will come down as a result of the Psalm 83 war, and will be the catalyst for the new Temple to be built.

Daniel 7:8 speaks of “another little horn”, because there are two little horns. Antiochus Epiphanes is an Antichrist type, and there will certainly come another in the future. Titus was not another little horn, he was no antichrist type, He did not offer any type of sacrifice in the Temple, and Nero never made it to Jerusalem at all, so he could not be the little horn.

Neither Nero nor Titus brought out the mark of the Beast, and all the nations of the world were not involved in the destruction of Rome. Yes I know that there were soldiers from all over the Empire, but known nations such as India, and China were not involved. Jeremiah 25 tells us that the whole world will be involved in Armageddon, not only the nations of the Roman empire. Check out this list, and you will see that there are nations listed who were not a part of Rome there;

Then took I the cup at the LORD’S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me: 18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people; 20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod, 21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon, 22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea, 23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners, 24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert, 25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes, 26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. Jeremiah 25:17-26

The kingdoms of the north must include Russia, which was a known nation at the time, but this is not limited to only known nations at the time of Jeremiah. “All the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth” must include the USA, and Brazil, and Australia, and China. Name any nation, and they will be there, and such a war has not yet been seen at any time in world history.

Your interpretation has a tendency to lull Israel to sleep. You are telling them “go back to the land, there is nothing to worry about”, but the Day of the Lord is yet to occur.

You criticize me for following Dispensationalism, yet I really only have a few doctrines in common with them, meanwhile you are NOT following the clear teachings of Scripture, but are pushing doctrines of men.

Think about it; If I am wrong then Israel would be cautious for nothing, but if you are wrong they will be brought back to the land, expecting the return of the kingdom and a bright future, only to get trapped into the Day of the Lord, and Armageddon.

The Tribulation is the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy in Dan. 9:24, it is the last seven years given for them to annoint the Messiah. In that sense it is for Israel, but the whole world will be involved, and the population thereof will be decimated! Even in Israel, 2/3 of the people will die.

Your view will no doubt be the view of the majority in professing Christendom, and it will trap Israel into the Day of the Lord.

People holding your view will be saying “peace and safety” when sudden destruction will come upon them, and they will not escape! 1 Thess. 5:3

Pre-tribbers are the only ones who are holding to the promise of His coming. I am amazed at how you twist what they say and believe.

It really looks like you have only read one of my posts. That’s too bad. I wish you would search through my pages and you will see that my views are shaped by the Scriptures themselves.

The wailing wall was not part of the temple but the wall surrounding it. I suppose that the daily sacrifices never ended as well. Jesus became the sacrifice ONCE and for all time… a trap for the Jews is to believe that Jesus didn’t become the sacrificial lamb, and that the sacrifices need to start up again to fulfill prophesy. The fact that they have ended should be a sign to both the Jew and the gentile, as Daniel 9:27 predicts.

Interesting that you bring up 1 Thess. 5:3… You make it sound that that you hold this scripture as the pretrib rapture (Many pretribbers do not), however, note that Jesus is coming like a thief in the night. He can only come as a thief in the night ONCE. The first would declare the second, however, the references to a “thief in the night” always refer to the second coming… 2 Peter 3:10 ,”I come as a thief…”, where the heavens are destroyed with a great noise, and Rev. 16:15 ,”Behold I come as a thief…” which takes place at the last bowl. Both are clearly after the tribulation. You see, for the rapture to take place 7 years prior to the second coming, this act would make Jesus into a liar in the nature in which He stated, HOW He would come, “like a thief…” For then the timing of the second coming would then indeed be declared. People would then know the day and the hour of the second coming and Jesus would have to have stated something like a “politician in the daylight…” rather that a “thief in the night…” to be truthful.

Luke 21:36, “of that day, no one knows the day or the hour…” What day? The one just spoken about in the previous verses, (29-35)”immediately after the tribulation…”, “Jesus comes in the clouds”, “angels gather the elect…” Why is it that the pretrib doctrine attempts to pick and choose which verses they want to apply to their belief. The scripture is clear, That day that has surprise is the day of the second coming. The Word never gives context to any references that the pretrib say is concered the rapture (unless it is one in the same with the second coming), that declare the surprise of His coming. I’ve challenged pretribbers to show me one…. they always end up stumped because it the element of surprise always falls on the scriptures concerning the second coming. You simple cannot have two comings that declare surprise for each with a 7 year period in between. Even if it wasn’t EXACTLY 7 years, the “goodman of the house would know at what hour to keep watch…” (Matthew 24:41,42. The answer is simple, the pretrib rapture is opinion, assumption and conjecture. A rapture seven year prior to the second coming is entirely conjured up by man. To believe in it is to believe that Jesus is a liar in the nature in which He promised how He would return for His second coming, “as a thief in the night…”

Rev. 16:15, the tribulation is over and the bowl judgements are pretty much passed, and Jesus STILL declares that He is coming for those who are watching and keeping their garments. The foolish virgins didn’t have the oil necessary to endure…. surely the bridegroom would not delay His coming. Yet Paul tells the bride how to make herself ready on Earth for when Christ comes with all the saints who have died…1 Thess. 3:12,13. The bride makes herself ready by the “righteous acts of the saints.” Righteous acts can only be accomplished on earth. Raptured church in heaven for a seven year tribulation is a conjured belief… Scripture show the bride on earth 1 Thess. 3:12,13. The dead in Christ will rise first, the only ones in heaven are those who have died first.

You said that the abomination of desolation happened before the time of Christ, yet Jesus said in the future tense “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)”

Now, I have read Josephus’ account of Titus’ destruction of the Temple, and I didn’t see any evidence that he declared himself to be God. What I did see is that he had actually made a command that the Temple should be preserved intact, and only reversed that order when his troops got out of control.

Being subservient to Nero, and then later his own father, I don’t think he would have had the nerve to declare himself to be God. That would have invited the wrath of Caesar upon himself. No, he had more self-discipline than that.

The abomination of desolation happened TWICE. Daniel 11 reads in chronological order of events from the time of the Greeks to the time of the Roman Empire. Every ruler is accounted for in this chapter, as if written historically. When the abomination is mentioned in this chapter it falls in the period of time in which a pig was slaughtered on the alter of the temple. The Jews were familiar with this abominable act and so they also understood (let the reader understand.. Matt. 24) what Jesus was predicting for the future concerning Titus in 70 AD Jesus was predicting a similar foreign invasion. That is why the readers could understand. Daniel 11 is fulfilled and not futuristic.

Titus doesn’t have to declare himself to be God to be the abomination of desolation. That is one of the many concocted ideas of the pretrib’s favored assumptions. I have read accounts twice that he made the claim, but like I stated earlier, I wasn’t there, and so I don’t know. He was later was made into an emperor, and emperors of Rome were considered a god. His father was emperor at the time of his conquest, and therefore considered a son of a god. It is not necessary for him to make the claim of being god to fulfill the scriptures of an abomination of entering the inner courts of the temple where it was unlawful for gentiles to enter, and decimating it to the ground, to be considered the abomination of decimation. The claim of being god is designated for the anti-christ of the future. Because pretribbers consider the anti-christ and the abomination of desolation the same, they combine the scriptures which talk of separate individuals. Titus did not need to make the claim to fulfill the prophesies surrounding him.

Consider the question that the disciples asked Jesus in Mark 13 or Matt. 24:3…. According to the pretrib doctrine Jesus totally blew them off concerning this question, and concerning Mark He answered a totally DIFFERENT question than He was asked by them. The fact of the matter is that Jesus was asked about when the time of the decimation of the temple would be. It amazes me that the pretribbers totally ignore this decimation that CONTINUES to this day, to fulfill their conjured up doctrine.

No, there was only one abomination of desolation. That was the one perpetrated by Antiochus Epiphanes IV, where a pig was slaughtered on the Altar of the Temple.

The bible describes the second one;

II Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Nor was there an image set up to Titus in the Temple, as per Revelation 13-14.

Sorry, Titus did not do any of this. It is necessary that He did fulfill the prophecies to the letter in order to be their fulfilment. He was not the second little Horn. That person will be the Beast of Revelation. History speaks for itself.

The overwhelmingly universal interpretation of the Christian Church of the book of Revelation was futuristic until Augustine came along in the 4th century. Augustine was no Christian, but an impostor, and the top heretic of all time, until the Antichrist comes along.

The disciples did not ask Jesus a question in Matt. 24:3. They asked him 3 questions. They may have thought that His coming would result in the end of the world, and it will, some thousand years later. Nevertheless they asked Him 3 questions, and I don’t think their assumptions were correct. He answered according to His own agenda.

His answer was that there would be wars and rumours of wars. These are not just any wars, but specifically prophesied End Times wars. Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39, in that sequence. I have explained that elsewhere.

Those wars haven’t happened just yet.

Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Did they end in 1967? The Temple Mount is still trodden down by the Gentiles, so I take it that the times of the Gentiles are not quite over just yet.

I have to ask you; What do you think about the Tribulation of the End Times, if you think Titus was the second Little Horn?

You are telling me that Matthew 24 was fulfilled by Titus’ destruction of the Temple, even though he actually ordered it to be preserved?

If this is the case then you must believe that the End Times Tribulation will be nothing compared to that event. Jesus told us that the event He was talking of would be the worst event the world would ever see.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice that He is not only talking about Israel, but the whole world here.

Some 1.3 million Jews were killed during the destruction of Jerusalem. While 6 million Jews were killed during World War 2, there were altogether over 50 million people killed throughout that war. It dwarfs the events of 70 AD by orders of magnitude.

Jesus, however, told us that the Great Tribulation would be the most devastating time the world will ever see. This means the all the wars the world has seen, up until that time, will not be as great. WW2 will be dwarfed by the events of the Tribulation. Your interpretation does not match Jesus’ statements in the least.

Daniel 12:1, speaking of the time of the previous chapter says;

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Again, this echoes Jesus’ statement above, and is a reference to the Great Tribulation of the End Times, not to the isolated destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Notice the phrase since there was a nation” this is a reference to all the nations of the world, not to Israel. It is not “the nation”

Again you have not answered my contentions that the “chambers” in Isaiah 26:20 is a reference to the same place that Jesus called “mansions” in John 14:2.

You contend that these places are on the earth, but you are forgetting that God uses the analogy of a marriage in many places, for His relationship with the Church, and a bride moves to her husband’s house when she marries him. Where on earth will these places be, considering that I showed you, yesterday, that the saints on earth will be slaughtered by the millions during the Tribulation period?

Those saints are not a part of the bride, but are invited guests to the wedding feast. They are saved, like the Old Testament saints, but they are not permanently indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

You are also forgetting that Jesus is not going to beat-up his bride before bringing her into His home. The Tribulation is also known as the “indignation”, which is a reference to God’s indignation with mankind. Specifically, this indignation is for them choosing another Christ other than the one He has provided.

When you don’t have an answer for my contentions you just skip around to some other point. Why not try to hash out one item before moving to the next?

A response to your question asking me if I think that Titus was the little horn…
No, Revelation is not a study on 70 AD. Obviously, 33 to 70 AD has prophetic significance however the confusion lies in the inability to separate the two eras of time, 70 AD to the end of the age. Yes, Jesus addresses them both in Matt. 24. However Revelation focuses on the end of the age.

Titus may have ordered the temple preserved, however that order was not fulfilled due to the fire that consumed it. Because the heat of the fire was so great it melted the gold in between the stones and no one stone was left upon another to recover the gold by fortune hunters. Thus fulfilling the words that Jesus spoke in Matt. 24:1,2.

You state that, “Jesus, however, told us that the Great Tribulation would be the most devastating time the world will ever see.” No that is not what He said. He, speaking of Jerusalem, told the disciples that it would be the most devastating time that they would ever see since the beginning of the creation of the world. This paralleling the time of Jacob’s trouble… Jer. 30:7. Interesting though that you would attempt to change the nature of whom this happens to. This does not conform to the mainstream pretrib thought. The mainstream pretrib thinking comes from the dispensational teaching that the great tribulation is for Israel, and not for the church. This is the foundation for the separation between the rapture and the second coming. Without this being able to prove this time is for Jacob/Israel, there is no foundation for the separation between rapture and second coming. If you state that the great tribulation is for the world rather than for Israel, then the separate coming of the rapture is complete conjecture, because the great tribulation being exclusively purposed for Israel is the founding principle of the separate coming of the rapture for the church. This is why it is so important for the pretrib doctrine to maintain that the Matt. 24 is exclusive for Jacob/Israel, and place it’s entire context on future events rather than a 70 AD fulfillment. Without this separation the rapture and the second coming are indeed one event that happens immediately after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31)

I have no problem understanding that the great tribulation coming upon the world is worldwide. However, I do not see that as the fulfillment spoke in Matt. 24:21. Rather Matt. 24:21 is the fulfillment of the time of Jacob’s trouble.. Jer. 30:7. Where she was scattered Jer. 30:10, 11… to the ends of the earth… Jer. 31:8 where she was gathered in 1948 to once again be the nation of Israel. I separate the time of Jacob’s trouble which Jesus answers the disciples first question of Matt. 24:3 and moves on the the next question(s) at about Matt. 24:25. At this point Jesus switches time eras from 70 AD to the end of the age. We see this more distinctly in Mark 13:23.

In Daniel 12:1… you quoted the verse, and put what you wanted to say in bold…. perhaps the bold that you should be noting is the first four words…. “And, at that time…” What time? The time just described in the preceding verses. Study it out it reads like a history book rather than a prophesy. The nations of Ammon, Moab, and Edom were not sucked into the Roman Empire… (Dan. 11:41) and the other nations listed were. “And at that time…” refers to the time of the Roman Empire. The same time of Jacob’s trouble… Jer. 30:7 where they were scattered to the ends of the earth, and Matt. 24:21 where the temple of Jerusalem was decimated and not one stone was left upon another to recover the gold melted by the great fire created by Titus’ crusade.

To address the Is. 26 again concerning chambers/dwelling places. I addressed this in my comment starting out that I’d love to tackle Is. 26. But being that I may not have satisfied your conclusion of bringing similarity to the two verses. I again bring up Ps. 91 of dwelling in the secret place of the Most High… a thousand falling by your side and 10,000 by your right hand doesn’t apply to a heavenly dwelling but an earthly secret place. The correlation you place on the two is speculative at best.

Concerning the marirage to the Lamb. Rev. 19 tells us that the bride has made herself ready. How does she make herself ready… by the righteous acts of the saints…These acts are NOT preformed in heaven by on earth, and Paul tells the bride how to do so ON earth for when Jesus returns with all of the saints who have died for the bride who has made herself ready… 1 Thess. 3:12,13,,, READ IT!

I’m glad you brought up the doctrine that the pretrib doctrine presents concerning the separation of bride vs. tribulation saints. With the separation of rapture and second coming doctrine of the pretrib, this doctrine accompanies it. A singular doctrine of rapture and second coming represents a singular bride without other groups. These other groups such as the tribulation saints are not mentioned separately in the Word. Therefore, a doctrine of man must accompany them… What to do with them? I’ve heard it suggested that they serve the bride and are servants in heaven. But what about God’s promises in His word? Obviously the bride promise doesn’t apply to them… what about the other promises. The work of the cross… Jesus went to the cross for His bride… Does grace no longer apply? The implications can really start getting HUGE! Post-bride saints present a problem doctrinally. One must make it up as they go… clearly indicating a doctrine of man. Doesn’t this bother you? It should!

Beating up the bride argument… Paul must not of been part of the bride, but he bride’s servant. He stated that he glories in his tribulation… Rom 5:3. Jesus tells us to be of “good cheer” and tells us that we are indeed appointed to tribulation and informs us of that so that we may have “peace”… John 16:33. Many are the afflictions of the righteous… God disciplines those who he loves… Rev. 3:19. Interesting that the pretrib doctrine believes that God would take care of His bride, but as for the tribulation saints, they get to experience the wrath of God… hmmm. Interesting that a wicked person can be taken out and killed swiftly by a natural type of disaster during the time of the “wrath of God” (according to the pretrib belief), and yet the affection of a painful death of cancer or the like from one of God’s own is not considered. The fact of the matter is that we are not ASSIGNED or APPOINTED to wrath, but to SALVATION, AND FOREVER LIVING WITH HIM. Wrath is eternal, as is salvation. The beating up the bride argument should be a wake up call to those considering the validity of the pretrib doctrine. Although the supporters CLAIM that they teach, and do not run from the tribulation and persecution that we are assigned to, in actuality the affliction that persecution and tribulation represent is the core reason for the belief. Jesus addresses this issue in the parable of the sower… Mark 4:18 He calls the issue stony soil. It is the escapism from persecution and tribulation. He
tells us that when persecution and tribulation come that the immediately stumble. Paul tells us that a great apostasy (“falling away”) must take place prior to our “gathering together with Him.” (2 Thess. 2:1-3) Jesus informs us WHAT causes people to fall away from the faith…. tribulation and persecution. It is amazing that some of the pretrib doctrine believers have twisted the scriptures to consider the “falling away” is the rapture…. amazing.

You state that I skip around a lot and do no answer your questions. This response is directed only one of your comments. I have addressed ALL of the issues you brought up in it. Naturally it takes time to respond to the plethora of statements that you make.

To respond to your comment on the abomination of desolation… That great that you recognize, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, as the first abomination. Daniel mentions the second in 9:27, which fulfills the destruction of the temple and end of sacrifices in Titus 3.5 year conquest of 70 AD.

1 Thess. 2 DOES NOT mention an abomination of desolation. The book of Revelation DOES NOT mention the abomination of desolation. Why, because that is a 70 AD event, not a anti-christ event. This is a dubious assumption of the pretrib doctrine to confuse the anti-christ with the abomination of desolation. The scriptures surrounding the abomination of desolation show it to be an event, not a person. The anti-christ appears to be a person not an event.

Of course, Titus did not erect an image in the temple, he decimated it, here again the pretrib doctrine purposely confuses the decimation written of Daniel with the anti-christ. Titus may have ordered the temple to be preserved, however when a torch was thrown through an open window it started the fire and decimated it. The contents would have been a great trophy to parade around the arena in Rome on their floats as they historically did.

When Jesus touches down at His return Zech 12. Half of Jerusalem will be under captivity. (Interesting that John Kerry is possibly initiating that now in Israel.) The time of the gentiles appear to not be fulfilled until the return of Christ. I know some believe that that time was fulfilled in 1948 by the return of the Jewish nation. From Zech 12 siting captivity makes it appear that 1948 doesn’t bring an end to that era.

The period of Jacob’s trouble was extended for a lengthy time… they were scattered from 70 AD to 1948 AD. The 6 Million Jews slaughtered in this last century by Hitler were still killed during the time of Jacob’s trouble… it extends from the time of “scattering” Jer. 29:10,11, til the time of their “gathering…” Jer. 30:8. It was indeed a time like no other.

It is true that the disciples asked Jesus 2-3 questions in Matt. 24:3 (depending upon how you view the punctuation.) In Mark 13 however, only ONE question is recorded. Interesting how the pretrib doctrine ignore this question. Mark continues to answer this question ending the paragraph in vs. 23.

Why didn’t you tackle Isaiah 26? This is a clear pre-tribulation passage, and has the resurrection the rapture and the return of Christ all in the exact sequence of what pre-Tribbers say. OK, it implies the return, but it is a definite implication; “hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.”

They are hidden in their chambers in Heaven until the “indignation” the Tribulation is over. These are the clouds of Heaven, who return with Jesus.

The Day of the Lord is a thousand year day, not one 24 hour day, nor even a 7 year day.

II Peter 3:12
“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?”

Your translation mistranslated the word “wherein”, which means that this is one event of many, within the day. There are other events which will happen within this day, such as the Tribulation period, and the millennial reign of Christ. It only ends with the earth and heavens being dissolved.

He had just told us, in verse 8, that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”.

Hebrews tells us that the seventh day is our day of rest. If this is not Sunday, then it surely is the seventh thousand years of earth’s existence.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Hebrews 4:4-9

Since we are very near the end of the sixth thousand years of earth’s history, the next millennium will be the millennial reign of Christ.

We are given the exact number of days from the revealing of the Antichrist, until the return of Christ. There is no way that this return could be considered as a thief, at least in the sense of the world being unaware of his coming.

As Jesus said, the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens and the tribes of earth will mourn(Matthew 24:30). They will know He is coming even before he sets foot on the earth.

They will also know when He is returning because they can calculate it from the day that the Antichrist was revealed.

Maybe you don’t understand what a thief does? A thief comes to take something. Jesus is coming to take the lives of His enemies. He is coming to take dominion, and sovereignty, over the earth. At His second coming, he is coming on a schedule, and he is coming to stay. In this sense it is not really like a thief.

The rapture is the only place where Jesus could be termed as “a thief in the night”. He comes, and takes, and then is gone.

God often skips around in Scripture. Sometimes comments are made that really are out of sequence. Just because He says something will happen, and then says something else will happen, it does not necessarily follow that they are in the same sequence. You have to study all of Scripture to understand the sequence.

I’d love to tackle Is. 26. and in doing so I will present it’s parallel passages…. Rev. 3:10, Ps. 91, and Luke 21:36. If you are not familiar with them, now is a good time to review, prior to my response.

Rev. 3:10 is a passage to the church of Philadelphia in which the Lord tells THEM, “because you have…”, “I will…” clearly a passage that shows a contingency. The pretrib doctrine REMOVES the contingency and makes it into a blanket statement for all the church. The doctrine teaches that ALL the church will be kept from the time.. and removes what is necessary to be in that number. Thus changing the Word to fit their doctrine.

Psalm 91… beautiful promise of God keeping His own through times of trouble… notice the contingency. Of course, if you are in heaven a thousand cannot be falling at your side or ten thousand by your right hand. (I realize that pretibbers would not consider this Scripture a parallel (rapture) passage, but it parallels Is. 26 more so than the conjecture necessary to use Is. 26 as a rapture passage. You do notice, that you must inject the rapture into this passage Is. 26, and that it is not placed there by Scripture?)

Luke 21:36… We are commanded to “Pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all…” …another contingency. If you believe that escape is the rapture as most pretribbers do then the contingency falls away as with all of these passages…changing the Word of God to fit their doctrine. Perry Stone a well known teacher of the pretrib doctrine states that this verse is the most compelling of the doctrine. I say that if you study the verse it totally blows away the doctrine of the pretrib.

A pretrib believer looks at this passage and correlates escape with rapture… gets excited and thinks nothing more of it. No need to be praying always. After all the prerequisite of rapture is salvation, and we are saved by grace and not by works (Eph 2:8,9). So worthiness has nothing to do with salvation or, for that matter, being raptured. Salvation is our ticket out of here. But… that is not what the verse states. Praying always for salvation is a faithless prayer.

If however, you know that the rapture is at the end, then there is an obvious reason to be praying always
that we may be considered being counted worthy to escape it all, just as the contingencies of the other Scriptures referenced make this known.

How is that going? Praying always that you may be considered worthy to escape all that is coming upon the Earth? When you find that you had an incorrect view, you will note that you have some serious catching up to do concerning this particular prayer that you are commanded to be beseeching.

Wow… a lot more of your response to comment on, but that would make a seriously long reply on my part. I will note that you totally ignored the passage of Rev. 16:15 concerning Jesus coming like a thief. Pretribbers avoid this passage like the plague. It’s easier for them to assume that the rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1… what dubious conjecture. I do know that to hold the pretrib view one must skip around a lot in Scripture… You state, “God skips around in scripture…” however, it’s not God… but man doing the skipping, especially if you hold the pretrib view. That’s why it HAS TO BE taught by man, and ALWAYS is. The bonding force that holds the view together is opinion and assumption.

Rev. gives us a chronological order of events… in Rev. 10 John is given a scroll to eat… the result of this is John is told that he will prophesy again. The last trumpet in Rev. 11 is the end of the first prophesy. At this point we are told that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God and He rules and reigns forevermore. If that is the case, we cannot have the beast ruling and reigning afterward, but we have a second prophesy. The pretrib doctrine does not see this, but has a run on sequence of events… the bowls happening after the trumpets. However, this cannot be the case, or our God would not be ruling and reigning forevermore as is stated at the end of chapter 11. The bowls and the trumpets are one in the same…note the correlation between the two. One lists the waters being affected, the corresponding judgement gives and amount… etc. Put them side by side and compare. God’s not skipping around, but tells us there is a second prophesy… and tells us when the first one ends.

Paul tells us WHEN the rapture will take place… at the last trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52. John tells us WHEN the rapture will take place Rev. 16:15, at the last bowl judgement. The trumpets and the judgements are one in the same. The rapture happens at the end.

I am going to start with your last comment first, because that is the most fresh in my mind.

Paul was unaware of any of the trumpet Judgments of the book of Revelation because that book had not been given as yet. It is not possible for Paul to be speaking of a trumpet that had not been revealed at that time!

If he was aware of the bowl or trumpet judgments, we would have heard from him on them, but we do not. God saved that revelation for John, long after Paul had been martyred.

Paul was referring to an Old Testament trumpet; the “great trumpet” found in Isaiah 27:13
“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.”

This trumpet occurs at the end of the Gog and Magog war, long before any of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation. This is the time when the rapture will take place; AFTER the Gog/Magog war, just prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, and just around the time the Antichrist is revealed. And, at the same time as the last remnants of Israel are returning expecting the kingdom to be restored, and peace and prosperity. Instead they will encounter the Day of the Lord.

Your view is very confusing. You are telling me that Revelation is sequential, and that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of our Lord in Chapter 11, and then we have Armageddon in chapter 16. Then after this we have the destruction of the Harlot, mystery Babylon, in Chapter 17, by the ten kings who sit under the Antichrist. Then the city, Babylon the great, is destroyed in 18.

Of course, you also have Babylon falling in 14:8. Either God is skipping around or Babylon will fall more than once!

The Antichrist himself is not taken from the earth and thrown into the lake of fire until chapter 19, and this is still one thousand years before judgment day, the final battle, and the end of the earth.

The bible starts “skipping around” in Genesis 2, where we have a snap shot of the Garden, after man was created in the previous chapter. Genesis 2 begins with day seven, and then goes back to day six.

God does this throughout the bible. If you deny this, then you don’t know your bible at all. Zechariah 11 has at least 4, and I think 6, different contexts within one chapter, some of them separated by thousands of years. It is the same with the messianic prophecies, where one passage will speak of both Jesus’ first coming, and then His second coming.

In Luke 4:18-21 Jesus quotes one of these prophecies, and ends His quote in mid sentence, because the rest of the sentence was not fulfilled at that time, and wouldn’t be for a couple thousand years. Go and read it! That’s right, even by the Lord’s own words we know that some prophecies were split in mid sentence!

You accuse me of making this up, but it was Jesus Himself, not me, who originated this teaching! If you are following the biblical Jesus you should have known this!

There is simply too much information for it all to be given chronologically. It was never the Lord’s intention to give everything chronologically, and it is not necessary. The Holy Spirit is available to guide those who are willing to listen.

“A thousand falling at your side” is a clear reference to soldiers having victory in a war. It could easily be a reference to the armies of the Lord on their return, after having spent seven years in Heaven, but it is not a reference to those alive on the earth during the tribulation. The Believers alive during the Tribulation will die by the millions. Daniel says the Antichrist will “wear out” the saints, and Revelation 13:7 says “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

There is no hint here that these are “unworthy saints”! These saints glorify Jesus by their martyrdom. If you are still alive on the earth during the Tribulation you will have the opportunity to glorify Jesus by your martyrdom.

By the way, if you think you will be able to fight the Antichrist, God has a word for you; “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Any saint who thinks he can fight the Antichrist and win will find himself overpowered, and slaughtered.

And by the way, this is not a description of Titus’ destruction of Jerusalem. It is a war between all humanity and God. There is no way that Nero could have been the fulfilment of this passage, since no Caesar had control over all the known world, let alone the unknown.

Revelation 16:15? I don’t think I ignored it. I said that thieves come to take things, didn’t I? Of course I did. How do you know that Jesus meant He was coming by stealth in this passage? He isn’t. But He is coming to take the lives of His enemies, and He is coming to take sovereignty over the earth. In this instance He is not going to steal, and leave, He is coming to take over, and stay, for 1,000 years.

You probably haven’t read any of my other articles; The Antichrist’s city was known as Philadelphia during the time of Christ. I suspect that it will take up that name again, it the near future. It was also known as a city of seven mountains, or jabals (in Arabic), and is today known as Amman, Jordan.

No, I didn’t say what you are saying I said… obviously you didn’t read and comprehend what I wrote the first time. No wonder you are confused. Try reading it over… this time paying attention to what was written.

Everyone thinks their view is correct, but how can you really tell, and how important is it really?

Both Jesus and Paul tell us to be careful that no man deceive you concerning this issue… Matt. 24:4, 2 Thess. 2:3. Peter tells us that those who don’t get it correct, “..twist the scriptures as the always do…” 2 Pet. 3:16. So obviously the warning stipulates that there is a lot of deception and twisting of the Word.

If you are interested in the truth, you must be willing to set aside all opinion, assumption, conjecture and speculation. If you can do this the truth will become available to you. This is not an easy task, especially if you have studied a lot of man’s opinion, and therefore see through those lenses. If you, however, are new to the study, let the Bible be your guide. Otherwise, you must be able to set aside all the movies, lectures, and ideas that may have bombarded you with man’s opinion over the years.

One certain way to understand that the Word of God has been tampered with is that certain ideas or doctrines create loose ends that must be tied up and therefore must be explained only by man. Like a child who has told a lie and must tell others to cover for the first on. These ideas create sub-doctrines that cannot be substantiated by the Word and must be explained by someone in order to be understood. You will not be able to find any explanation from the Word, because they are super-scriptural, and therefore added to the Word. For the truth to be found the idea must flow with the whole of Scripture and all “loose end” must be dealt with by Scripture, leaving no room for man to interfere.

Here is an example of a loose end or sub-doctrine: The pre-tribulation rapture view tells us that the bride is raptured seven years prior to the second coming. That is the initial idea. However it creates many loose ends that must be explained and must be addressed solely by man. One loose end is the sub-doctrine of the tribulation saints. The tribulation saint cannot be the bride, because the bride is in heaven (according to the view). This causes many problems with the whole of Scripture; “we are one body in Christ Jesus”, the promises that apply to the bride, don’t apply to the tribulation saints, etc. How can the saints be one body as a bride, and another as separate from the bride, and remain one body? Man’s explanation of this view, tells us that the tribulation saints must become eternal heavenly servants of the bride. This in effect makes the tribulation saints greater than the bride, because, “He who wishes to be greatest in the kingdom of heaven must become a servant of all.” If that is the case, it would be more desirable to be a tribulation saint than a member of the bride. There are a lot of other complications that this the concept of tribulation saints bring, and those who carry this particular view cannot agree exactly on how this all plays out. Here in lies the problem. It is super-scriptural in nature. Not explained by the Word and therefore the end result must be conjured to make sense of it all. As a result there will be many views concerning the sub-doctrines. This is a loose end that creates a sub-doctrine that is derived and conjured by man. Be careful that no man deceive you! This sub-doctrine is a secondary lie to cover the initial.

Another issue is a doctrine changing the Word of God to be able to accommodate their view. Peter addresses this… 2 Peter 3:16. In order for the doctrine to be received it must be taught to those with a shallow understanding of the Word.

Here is an example of this: Luke 21:36 tells us to pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all that is coming upon the earth… The pre-tribulation view tells us that the word “escape” in this passage refers to the rapture. Okay if that is the case, what does this concept do with the rest of the verse? “…Pray always that you may be counted worthy…” Most have the understanding that the prerequisite to being raptured is being saved. We are saved by grace and not by works or being worthy… Eph 2:8,9. However, for the word “escape” to be the rapture, we must be raptured by our worthiness and pray always accordingly. So now we are told that only some Christians will be raptured because not all are worthy, although saved. To continue this thinking, they would also loose any bride status in order to become tribulation saints. Perhaps even having to have to face martyrdom to earn their way into heaven because Christ died for the bride, and not for them. This verse creates division among those who hold the view. Some believe there is no division of those who are saved that get raptured at the rapture and some do. Overall the understanding of salvation equating those “assigned for rapture” must be severed, otherwise we would have to be saved by works, contrary to the Word. Jesus told us the parable of the 10 virgins in Matt. 25. The five foolish were not only told, “depart from me, I never knew you,” but “go to hell” as well. What they were not told is that they would get a second chance as a tribulation saint. As you can see the Word gets changed (twisted as Peter states) to accommodate the view.

You must ask yourself, is your own desires clouding your view? Often I get asked, “Why would you want to go through the great tribulation?” As if what I want as anything to do with God’s plan. The obvious conclusion to those who ask this question is that their personal desires have clouded their perception of the truth. Is it foolish to walk directly in the direction of persecution? Peter rebuked Jesus for walking into His crucifixion. Jesus in turn stated, “Get thee behind me Satan.” Today the church spends much of their time running from taking up their cross.

If Peter tells us that those who do not get it right concerning the view of eschatology (end times), “twist the scripture as they always do.” The “as they always do” is huge. That means that your perceptions of truth concerning your “end time” beliefs exemplifies your perception of the Scriptures as a whole. This puts great importance upon the study of eschatology. We must be lovers of the truth, if not God Himself will send a delusion upon us as stated in 2 Thess. 2 at the end of chapter.