Men Must Be Needed Because We Can’t Be Wanted

We believe we have to be the heroes only because we can’t yet see other roles for ourselves.

Running an online magazine about masculinity, I’ve come to observe a curious phenomenon. When we post about male rape victims or the enforcement of masculine gender roles, we get plenty of interesting comments. But when we post about Nice Guy Syndrome and other issues around men who feel sexually unwanted, our comments blow up like they were directed by Michael Bay. This is an issue that touches men deeply and damagingly, and ties in with a lot of pain that, hegemonic masculinity being what it is, usually doesn’t get talked about.

Others, such as Hugo Schwyzer, have written about how straight men don’t feel sexually desired, but that’s the tip of the iceberg. It’s hard to overestimate just how deep this idea goes. It feeds into a phenomenon a lot of guys have experienced, a phenomenon based on weird broken ideas about gender roles, ideas so deeply rooted in the subconscious that most men aren’t even aware that they’ve got them.

The core issue is this: many, many men in our society feel they have to be needed, because they can’t imagine they could ever be wanted.

Being needed can take different forms, all of which resemble traditional male roles. Brave protector against danger. Breadwinning economic provider. Indispensable handyman. Problem-solving leader. We get any more macho stereotypes in here, it’s gonna look like a Village People reunion. This is what being masculine means in our culture: to be necessary.

Plan A, for men in our society, is to be necessary, to be needed, to be indispensable. There is no plan B.

One of the most common complaints about feminism, all the way back to the First Wave, is that feminism seeks to make men obsolete or unnecessary. “If women can [fill in anything about female agency] what will they need men for?” runs the line, in every decade, in response to every advance. And while nobody is arguing that that’s a legitimate criticism, it’s important to understand that it arises out of a real fear. Look at the key word in that sentence, need. It’s always the same concept, however that objection is phrased. Plan A, for men in our society, is to be necessary, to be needed, to be indispensable. There is no plan B. If plan A doesn’t come off, we are lost, we’re adrift, we have nothing. This is an existential fear, on a very deep level.

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There’s a common observation among those who, like myself, have worked in senior citizen care homes. It’s related to why the population of those homes skews heavily female, to why men die younger than women. Over and over, again and again, those who are around senior citizens have to deal with retired men who, no longer working and no longer earning money, don’t know why they’re still alive. They don’t know who they are or why they bother to continue drawing breath, if they’re no longer needed for something important. Some of them find something else to define themselves, some new project or internal source of worth. Others just give up and let the next swell of ill health carry them overboard.

We’re at a place, culturally and economically, where many of the traditional sources of necessity for men have evaporated, or at least been drastically downsized.

The “crisis of masculinity” that many people are currently wringing their hands over, the “mancession” involving men’s employment dropping slightly faster than women’s, the cultural yearning for an imagined past when men bestrode the world like gray-suited colossi, building and making and innovating Important Things… same problem. We’re at a place, culturally and economically, where many of the traditional sources of necessity for men have evaporated, or at least been drastically downsized. We don’t need to have 25% of the population growing food any more, we can do it with 2%. Women don’t need men to provide for them any more, education and career opportunities have opened up. All this would be fine, if there were any plan B.

It’s a well-worn observation that media is the first place to look for enforcement of societal norms. A quick glance at our culture’s media demonstrates that it endlessly reinforces the notion of male necessity. On a surface level, there’s the fact that with fictional heroes remaining overwhelmingly white males, if a guy doesn’t show up, there’s no story at all. That’s a nice form of necessity. Deeper than that, though, there’s the structure of every “romantic” subplot in every movie that has a character who can be accurately described as The Girl. Every action movie, every sci-fi epic, all the movies that are stereotypically written off as male power fantasies, all have the same way that the hero gets the girl: he proves his necessity, usually by saving her life. If he weren’t there, she’d literally be dead.

Interestingly, the romantic movies often stereotyped as female fantasies do not generally have this dynamic. Oddly, however, even those rarely focus on the male lead as the object of desire; the female gaze is commonly absent from these stories. Instead the heroine tends to be the object, and the hero prevails by demonstrating that his desire for her is the biggest and most special and pure and so on. Not even in the realm of “chick flicks” about the joys of heterosexual pair-bonding are men seen as desired, as wanted.

I’m not speaking in the abstract here; when this wanted/needed dichotomy was first pointed out to me, I felt a deep and embarrassed pang of recognition. I myself like it when I can rescue my girlfriends, when I can save the day or handle the problem or otherwise demonstrate my irrefutable necessity. I like feeling needed because even for me, even with all my ever-so-educated awareness of gender roles and stereotypes, even with all the women who’ve told me I’m sexy and desirable, I still can’t quite convince myself that I’m wanted. Even if I am, being wanted can only be a nebulous and fleeting state. Being needed, now, that’s solid. That’s a reason to keep going.

It is downright incredible how resistant to empirical data the sense of being unwantable is. It took many years and girlfriends before I began to suspect that every women who slept with me might not be humoring me out of pity. Even then, and to this day, I feel more secure in relationships when I can provide a measurable and necessary form of value other than just my own charms, whatever those might be. Girlfriend needs a ride to the airport? I’m on it! Needs a ride to the hospital? Even better! The rare occasions where I can help out with covering bills when she’s short on rent (most of the women I’ve loved make more money than a starving writer, it turns out) are even better, because I am Providing For My Woman, and I feel the warm glow of centuries of hegemonic masculinity validating me.

Let me be clear: I know this is stupid. I know it’s asinine social programming and that these women consider me sexually and emotionally desirable. But there’s a difference between knowing that and believing it. And for guys who haven’t got a girlfriend, who feel the bitter sting of active rejection or the endless cold of passive rejection, who yearn for love and sex and the touch of another hand… what can they possibly believe about being wanted?

The fact is, as I’ve learned during prolonged periods of loneliness myself, when a a lifetime of “Ewwww, gross, naked guy!” jokes combine with stretches of personal rejection, it’s easy to feel neither wanted nor needed. Maybe you’re lucky enough to have a job where your particular abilities are necessary, so that’s a form of being needed, one you can throw yourself into, but it’s not the same as being needed by another person. Being wanted by another person, at that point, has disappeared over the horizon, into an unmarked area of the map labeled HERE BE UNICORNS THAT DISPENSE FREE MONEY.

It’s easy to get bitter when you feel unwanted, and so this unfortunate confluence of forces has left our culture littered with embittered men who get very upset about what they can’t help but perceive as their own failure. It’s easy to dismiss them as angry losers or some other convenient pejorative, but I’ve walked a few too many miles in their shoes to call their pain baseless. I don’t pretend to have a solution, but the least we can do is begin to correctly identify the problem.

Noah Brand is an Editor-at-Large at Good Men Project, and possibly also a cartoon character from the 1930s. His life, when it is written, will read better than it lived. He is usually found in Portland, Oregon, directly underneath a very nice hat.

Comments

The author sounds obsessed with being needed by others or by society, where he should instead (as any other living thing on the planet) ought to be focused on his/her own personal needs. Feeling needed is not a need in itself. Working towards fulfilling ACTUAL evolutionary, survival needs, (as opposed to desires) on the other hand is what you should be worried about. If you don’t feel that your current job is panning out for you to that end, find a new one, rather than complaining about how you don’t feel needed.

That women’s position as a whole is rising on the economic stage should be the least of your worries. As another fellow blogger of yours posted, the male shadow sounds more like equality when all of the information is taken into account.

I would add to my comment that you are in fact NOT NEEDED to anyone. I mean this in every possible sense. There is no necessity. If you passed away, whoever you feel it is that needs you will carry on and even forget you. On the other hand, YOU NEED. You need to fulfill basic needs to rid yourself of hunger pangs, you need a bed, food, shelter. You don’t need to feel needed by others, Additionally, others will never really need You. When you’re gone, be sure that someone will fill the place that was once “yours.” I find this article childish in that the author doesn’t seem to recognize this simple point.

Not at all childish, as the idea of being needed by someone is a convenient fiction that keeps many human beings alive and sane. Whole civilizations, particularly so-called ‘primitive’ ones, are based on people filling often tightly-defined social roles (which have little to do with want) — anyone who steps or is cast outside the grid feels lost.

You sure about the “forget” part? Just look at the multitudes of dead we can’t let go of in the US: the Civil War dead, the World War II dead, the 9/11 dead, the political martyrs, the mythic celebrities, the national heroes, the “unborn.” Only ancient Egypt was more death-fixated—or memory burdened.

Noah, totally appreciate your deeper insight into something I never much considered before myself. I’ve always heard a lot of men say that they rather be needed than wanted and I always wondered why that was. Your article really explains all those questions I had about that. You’re: “Plan A, for men in our society, is to be necessary, to be needed, to be indispensable. There is no play B.” really hit home.

The only part that concerned me about the piece is the explanation for bitterness. On one hand, I do get it. I get why a man could begin to feel bitter if he felt so unwanted. And I’d like to give agency to that pain. I can understand it myself because sometimes I carry my own bitterness around. But while sometimes I can’t completely shake some of my own bitterness, I do see how it affects the things I do and say. And it’s usually not for the better. I don’t want to justify the attitudes or actions that may come from the bitter feelings even while I DO understand this very human feeling. If we can give agency to men who do feel bitterness, than lets also draw attention to how the bitterness can affect the way a man thinks or what he does that may not come from the most positive of places. If we can do that, maybe that gives men a stronger foundation to be more familiar with their own feelings and the affect their feelings have on them?

I am too lazy to read the whole article and every comment. With that said I think that my point will still stand.
It is to me AMAZING how so few people think that this behaviour we are talking abaout here and everything about it is grounded in genetics and evolution.
Generally I think that allmost everything we can see in our coulture is a sympton of something genetic. Sence it is impossible that so many people are uncanning and unintelligent I am sorry to say that you people are week and are just fellowing the mainstream thought that “everyone can be and do what ever they want”. PLEASE.

I’m too lazy to debunk your comment thoroughly but with that said, I think that my point will still stand.

The laziness you claim in your commenting shows through in your reasoning. A simple cross-cultural analysis will tell you that very little is about genetics and evolution. Much of the field of “evolutionary psychology” is mere projection, sprinkled with bits of wishful thinking.

Yeah because there are just as many matriarchies as patriarchies in the world right? I find it strange so many discount the idea of evolutionary instincts playing a role in how we act in society. Humans obviously are so advanced that there are no instincts that drive our societies makeup huh?

Arguing from the extremes today? Either it’s completely deterministic or it plays no role?

Evolution (and quantum theory) appears to be a favorite of those not prone to critical inquiry. Why is it this way? Must be evolution done it. “Men do X and women do Y because EVOLUTION™” is difficult to argue against, since unlike the fossil record and genetic analysis with biological evolution, there is scant evidence for how we behaved in pre-history.

If you look across recorded time and known cultures past and present you’ll find that gender roles are not static and have never been static. Our culture is our frame from the day we are born, and none of us is immune to its effects. When we see behaviors that differ between cultures, it’s a fair indication that those behaviors are influenced by culture, some more so than others. When lay people make a claim that a behavior X is because of evolutionary psychology, it’s often an indication that they haven’t thought about X outside of the frame of their culture.

When someone makes a statement that nearly everything they see in their culture has a genetic basis, and those behaviors are shown to vary between cultures, they’re making a claim that doesn’t survive cursory examination. That’s not to say that no behaviors have a biological component, only that said behaviors are likely fewer and farther between than imagined.

Well, I’d make a distinction between the discipline of EvoPsych and the process of evolutionary psychology. The former, in my estimation, isn’t worth a whole lot. the latter, on the other hand, just is, but the mechanisms and history remain stubbornly elusive.

One of the biases of people who use evolution as an explanatory mechanism is an assumption that a particular trait (or behavior) is advantageous, that it leads to increased fitness. It’s as if they’re taking the idea of “survival of the fittest” to be literally true, rather than a coarse explanation of evolutionary mechanisms. In reality, there are plenty of traits that are maladaptive and have hitched a ride along with others that do increase the likelihood of survival and propagation of said traits. Then there are traits that have both positive and negative effects on a population (e.g. sickle-cell disease).

Gendered behavior has so many layers of social construct to it I doubt it would prove profitable or even possible to tease apart what is “innate” and what is constructed. However what we do know from the existence of variances in gender behavior is that whether innate or not, culture is plenty capable of overriding those forces.

There’s also a common assumption among amateur or orthodox Evo Psych practitioners that humans have evolved to be “only one way,” as if natural selection is strictly a simplifying and reinforcing phenomenon. However, it’s entirely possible that when it comes to sex and gender roles humans have evolved to be flexible and malleable. There are cases of an animal species that has very different mating patterns in different environments. There is no “one natural way they have evolved to be.” Considering that humans have evolved to exist in an incredibly wide variety of habitats, perhaps a better hypothesis is that humans have evolved some variability in terms of sex and gender roles.

In any event, patriarchy resembles a technology more than a evo bio development. It’s a technology the way that agriculture is a technology. There’s some solid, unavoidable biological foundation to it, but it’s still something structured by human hands.

If patriarchy is somehow a “natural” evolutionary development, that doesn’t mean that patriarchy is not a dead end. It could Homo sapiens’ deadend trait, like the antlers on the Irish elk.

Ofcourse not all behaviour are grounded totally in genetics and evolution. With that said everything can still to some extinct (Am not a pro at english but I hope you stay with me) be lead back to the very core of ouer instincts.
For example this subject when talking about men who doesnt feel wanted. Historicly and also if you compare with other group-animals you can see that a minority of men (alfas) are fucking a majority of women, while the rest are happy to find a women here and there. The “alfas” are the few men we can still see today that do not feel unwanted, while the majority of men does (betas).
Also I think today when we are almost equal in all legal aspects men who historicly still would have been pretty “alfa” can no longer behave the way they are designd by nature to behave and they cant in the same way feel needed because most wemon now can and are alowed to do things the man historicly would have helped her with, thsi create the feeling of not being needed. to add up men are learned today that woman are so good and cute and we have to treat them well, and so on and so on. I am NOT saying all this is bad, but it is just how it is.

It is arogant to think we are so free from instincts and differ so much from animals when there is no walid argument and no proof we should differ.

Do you think men are wired to never feel wanted,never feel they are desired by women even if they have a sexual relationship?

Why should evolution favour that trait? This should mean women favored insecure men with sex and not confident men that know well when a woman wants him,reads her signals and trust his intuition.
Is that your observation from what happens in real life?

Isn’t this a facet of the pursuer/pursued model again? If we rigidly stuck to the game (thank god we don’t and some break the rules, but they are exceptional) Men risk rejection; women get to do the rejecting – so a woman’s perception is there are men who want her, she doesn’t want all of them – aren’t they annoying, men who you don’t want who imagine that you might!
A man’s perception is there are women he wants; not all of them want him.

Moreover the illusion that script give is she only wants him because he persuaded her, he made the right moves or perhaps even he slyly tricked her. Of course in truth is she probably made some attempt to get his attention in the first place, she arranged the situations to make it easy for him; she may have even given him the feedline to allow him to make the move; but she’s not supposed to admit that; that’s all secretive; she goes along with the story that he made all the moves, and she’ll do nothing to shatter that illusion. At what point can the hypothesis that he is undesirable ever be refuted by evidence? Except when couples step outside of those roles.

“A man’s perception is there are women he wants; not all of them want him.”

Why view rejection as a risk? I think the proper way to see rejection is that she simply is not into you. I mean there are millions of women out here. Why get so hung up so early on one woman?

I have girlfriend of about 8 months now. I see women everyday that I desire physically. But, it’s just a mental process of looking at them (especially their great asses) and thinking….purely physical. If I approached these women, the majority would say “No.” I would reject many I am sure too. So, how is risky just to approach if you know the majority will say “No?”

No I’m just saying this is the repeated experience that models his opinion of himself. I don’t consider rejection a “risk” now; I probably did when I was in my twenties, or not a risk to my ego leastways – I mean it does dent my ego, but that’s not my main reason for not risking it. But in terms of modelling a person’s self-image if you’re repeated experience is being rejected you’re going to believe you’re undesirable; almost regardless of how many times you’re not rejected. If you’re repeated experience is you get to reject, you’re going to imagine you’re pretty hot (you’re the one who gets to be choosy). Actually of course I do get to reject… IN MY HEAD… I get to say “she’s not my type”, “she’s too shallow”, “she looks boring and conservative”, “she has no sense of humour” blah, but they don’t know I’m doing that so that rejection is not part of their experience, or if they do perceive it they do not perceive it to a lesser or greater extent than someone who I’m not approaching not because I’ve rejected them but I anticipate that they will not be interested in me. In fact that reinforces women’s view of men that they’re not fussy and just want sex, doesn’t it? It is a rare experience to get to witness a guy saying no to someone, so it’s fair to assume that men will do it with just anyone. And because they believe THAT, that’s why they demand more evidence that you MEAN it, and hence won’t give anything away, and minimise the encouragement; and thus the perceptions the game raises become the stereotypes the game rests on, and the cycle goes on.

@Iben
Like I stated here above. Ofcaourse it is not attractive or prefered to women with men that feel not-needed. If you look historicaly and also if you compare with most group animals you have an minority of men (alfas) that are mating with an majority of women while the rest of the men (the ones that feel not-needed (betas)) are happy to find a women here and there. Becaouse ofcourse not everyone feels anwanted and unneeded, just the majority.

Everything is genetic, that is true. Our rationality, intellect, emotional depth and imagination is part of our genetics, that is true. And our rationality, intellect, emotional intelligence and creativity is so profound, complex and powerful that we can (and did) create lots of diverse, different societies, cultures. All of them have different aspects and values for most everything. We make ourselves leaders and/or slaves by our own minds. That is genetic – but also created. Without our genetics we could never create this, that is true – but that also means it is not the only way things should be, and that we can make a better ending.

Society teaches men to be defined by what they DO, look up the success myth n male disposability. Men have to achieve, they have to be successful, they have to have that great career or fight the good fight in war to be seen as worthy.

Feminism brought in a lot of good changes but the big problems are that the current generation of men have been exposed to so much misandry, coupled with the currently major fuckup of education where boys are fast slipping behind is a huge issue. Men have had the message of men = bad, women = angels drummed into their head with countless anti-dv and anti-rape campaigns that gender it far too much, men are seen as lecherous around kids with the pedophilia hysteria, the bias (or percieved bias) of family courts and how easy it can be for a man to lose his home, access to kids, etc and you end up with a lot of men feeling like they have no real place in society. I don’t think I know ANY male that feels sexy or desired by women, or at least not much.

Then we grow up with fairy tales and stories that come from patriarchal times where it’s drummed into our heads that we have to die to protect our wife, we have to provide for her and our kids, it can leave many in despair especially if they ever get into a violent situation and cannot defend her and also if their partner earns more, many will feel like they have failed as a man.

When you place so much importance on male utility and then have women evolve in society to not rely on that utility then men will question their worth. A similar situation is when women’s looks are valued so much and then as they age they feel like they are failing as being a woman and aren’t attractive to a man. Men who earn very little (such as myself) worry heavily that we have failed at being a man, because so many women still do want a man to provide for them but also society expects us to earn as much or more than our women.

Take a look at how many articles are about “male child”, or men in their 20’s that play video games and treats them like they are teenagers and not adults, where responsibility means “growing up” and having kids, having the mortgage, not playing games and just working yourself into an early grave from a heart attack at 50. Men are valued sooo much for their success that it often kills many because of how much they work at the expense of their health.

Men are treated like predators, airlines move men away from children that aren’t theres, primary n preschool teachers get parents asking for male teachers to be fired over fears they will abuse, fathers get dirty looks at parks. We have shroedingers rapist (better known as gender profiling) where women have been taught from young about the dangerous sex crazed “testosterone” fueled cavemen.

All of this issues culminate in a feeling that men are not desired as much in society, that we aren’t needed, that we can’t even be trusted around children OR women because we might be rapists. We have so much focus on the harms that men perpetrate on women and children yet simultaneously we heavily ignore the harms men face by women n others, men feel like they’re disposable and not cared for.

Society needs massive changes, and the first step is emapathy. We need to respect both genders, we need to protect both genders, we need to severely lower the focus on gender roles and allow each gender to bring what they want to the table. Women can be breadwinner if they want, men can be stay at home dads, allow the freedom to choose based on individual desire and not because you have a dangly bit or not. Value people for who they are, not their income alone, not their body alone.

Both men n women need to tell their partner how much they love them, what they appreciate, hold em, hug em, fuck em senseless and show you desire them 10000%. Men need to know they are more than a wallet, women need to know they are more than their body. Do it now, be thankful you have a partner, and TALK it all through. Communicate, say your fears, open up, get it all off your chests and I bet nearly all people will quickly feel desired again. It’s way too easy to get stuck in the same record of life where we don’t let our partners know what we feel for them, and take it for granted expecting them to just KNOW it…but sadly a lot of people do NOT know it, I know so many people who are insecure and who feel they aren’t enough yet their partners are crazy for them.

I had the abject misfortune of growing up in a small, ultra-conservative town where gender norms were well-defined and in place. Young women married young men out of need — primarily financial need, as very few of them were self-supportive — and they stuck with those men until/unless they became dispensable (read: financially insolvent). Men married because they wanted to — typically, to the pretty cheerleader blonde who served as eye-candy and “mother to his children” for X-number of years until she lost her (physical) luster. I know this sounds like a ridiculous stereotype that couldn’t possibly exist in the1990s, but this was the norm.

It makes me feel sad that men don’t feel needed apart and aside what they can contribute in terms of financial stability and personal favors. (I do need my best half — how can I not need a best friend in life, a collaborator and equal partner?) But please understand something, men. Women have the same types of insecurities. We want to be needed, not just wanted. As a woman, I’ve frequently felt as though I’m simply wanted and not really needed. It’s both horrifying and demoralizing to ask yourself, “Will this man be with me when my face begins to wrinkle and my body begins to sag and illness takes its toll, even though what I have to offer is a far greater payoff?” when the answer is almost always “I don’t know”.

I am divorced an dating a woman I care deeply about. However, I cannot seem to let go entirely with her emotionally. It’s not seem, I won’t. Why? As you said above, “I don’t know.”

I love your very open, honest, and thoughtful post. I am a very loyal man. I grew up in the rural South. I left the South when I earned my undergrad degree from Vanderbilt. Morality, God, and religion have always influenced me as a person. I am not saint or perfect man.

The narrative you laid out is still true in many respects. However, I find that women no longer need men for financial reasons. More and more women are earning college degrees and becoming highly successful in their careers. This is why I support the very conservative and narrow view of feminism. It is better for a man to be with a financially independent woman. Otherwise, there is going to be dependence. And dependence changes human dynamics in relationships.

I have a long time female friend who is married. She really does not like her husband anymore. But, she will not leave unless as she says, “I find a man with money.” That is really sad. She has had numerous affairs. She says she and her husband have not had sex in over 3 years. I have encouraged her to go and get her Bachelors. She has an AA degree. Then get her Masters. But, she is looking for a short cut at age 43.

I was having drinks during happy hour at the Macaroni Grill last week. I live in Maryland. A couple in their 60s sat next to me at the bar. They have been married for 43 years. Two kids both grown. Son just got married. The father said he pulled his son aside and told him, “Son, you know she is always going to make more money than you. Are you sure….” He argued that today’s women have “shot themselves in the foot.” I listened and his wife was a bit silent on the matter. Most of the marriage his wife did not work. Then she became a teacher and has retired.

I then said to him that I disagreed with him. Specifically, I told him that women had NOT shot themselves in the foot by seeking careers…I said it was freedom and independence. I also asked this question, “Would not you want a woman as your wife who wanted to marry you out of love, as opposed to financial reasons?” He was quite. But, his wife perked up and said “Exactly”. He said he never thought of that. He turned to his wife (they were such a beautiful couple, both dressed in white) and said, jokingly “So, you really love me huh?” She said, “let me pour this glass of wine over you!”

unfortunately, because of the materialistic and narcissistic culture here in America, the old paradigm you mentioned is still practiced. More than people wish to admit.

I do not want to feel needed. Sometimes I am not sure I really need to feel wanted. I really want a woman who respect me and admire me for the person I am. That she wants me for those reasons. I valued loyalty very much. Whether she wrinkles, wears a girdle, …..it does not matter. Why? Because I chose her for the person she is and not because she is “eye candy” or “hot” or etc. If you approach it that way, then you can somewhat minimize the, “I don’t know.”

Not being needed or wanted has played out in my workplace for the past three months.
I was fired last week. The firing wasn’t for anything about job performance, or not working hard, or for showing up drunk or for that matter anything tangible. I worked my ass off for those people and I have the emails from happy customers to prove it; but so what. The reason I was fired was that my female supervisor didn’t like me and she pointedly showed me that I wasn’t wanted or needed. I temped in the company for a year and was finally hired last January. Up until three months ago I was supervised by a man who didn’t have power or gender issues or felt that he had to destroy my sense of myself, my worthiness and my capabilities in order to feel superior and in charge. He was promoted and in the power vacuum that followed this female supervisor took over. I’m convinced that she saw it as another opportunity to exert her will and shine. The truth is that she was never trained to be a supervisor in the three years that she’s been in her position and the management style of this small company is very seat of the pants with no clear direction disseminated from the top on down. It is managed by crisis, much of which is created by her. The problem I had with her from the outset was that I was vocal about what I needed in order to do my job and she saw that as a challenge to her dominance. We had a quick face to face late one Friday afternoon and we both acknowledged that we were having a hard time working together. I told her that she didn’t need to yell at me in order to get her points across and that I wanted to work with her. She responded by telling me that she had to figure out a way to communicate with me after I had just told her how to communicate with me. Over the following weeks the bullying and screaming began. At first I stood up to her and then I slowly shrank from her and reverted to what had worked for me in my terribly dysfunctional family when I was a kid: I shut up and took the beatings. The few times I attempted to defend myself she dragged me into the GM’s office and they both yelled at me. I know I sound like I was powerless and pathetic but during the course of the beatings I developed a new sense of who I was. I figured that since I wasn’t going to be liked or appreciated — and let’s face it men, at our core that is what we want and need — I would have to do that for myself. I took more pride in my work and noted my own accomplishments. I excelled at my job for my own satisfaction and to regain my sense of self worth and my capabilities. I started getting emails from the customer thanking me for the extra effort I put in and I no longer needed or cared about my supervisors flawed need to control and subjugate me. That was the upside. The downside was that it was my renewed sense of self that got me fired. I was called into the GM’s office after lunch on my last day there and in a very nervous, fidgety way told me that I didn’t fit in, no one wanted to work with me and the customer had been complaining about me. The first reason was true; I didn’t fit in. The second reason should really have been that my supervisor no longer wanted to work with me. And the third reason was just a fabricated lie. I am currently unemployed and looking but my firing didn’t crush me or my spirit. I am grieving the job loss but I’m also empowered because in the end it didn’t matter to me if I was wanted or needed. I like me and I learned to not look outside myself for that approval.

Jules,my bruddha,i’m good.YOU are such a traditionalist!Historically speaking,many of the men you named are not white at all,i gotta think you knew this.Some like Constantine the “Great” and Julius Caesar did some good things,but brutally killed countless people to solidify their greateness.Julius Caesar was a war mongering tyrant.Therein lies the problem.Classical historical persepctives and analysis often overlook or flatout excuse or ignore the bodycounts compiled by these so-called “great” men.Why? Because power and brute force are often mistaken for and rewarded as greatness.Don’t get me started on the Catholic Church or Judadism or Islam!? My question is why do we call some people who kill millions in order to do “good” great? My history profs never once provided a legitimate answer to that question.

“Classical historical persepctives and analysis often overlook or flatout excuse or ignore the bodycounts compiled by these so-called “great” men.Why? Because power and brute force are often mistaken for and rewarded as greatness.”

Such is the history of man Og. What about Shaka Zulu? Yes, there are times when we can call a man who kills millions great. We often need war to restore peace.

I am not into this ultra critical view of man. I believe you have to look at everything. Look at all their contributions and then make your decision.

Mark You,my man are so RIGHT!I thought men had learned a lesson about obsessing over one’s looks because of what women who do so have experienced.It is a slippery slope lined with razor blades.Besides,developing a need to be noticed by the opposite sex ALL THE TIME is a sign of insecurity.Today,which will be warm, I will wear my flipflops a nice graphic -t that shows off my back,bi’s and tri’s, casual jeans and a $7.00 pork pie brim.Total cost,$40.00.Comfort and piece of mind,priceless.

Tommy,Tommy,Tommy…when you said you were going clothing shopping with the ol’ lady,I didn’t think you meant the thrift store!I do the same thing! There is a great thrift store in Lafayette,California that I love to go to.I can’t believe some of the stuff people throw away.Really good stuff,some almost new.I could spend all day rooting around in this store.One day,one of the volunteer ladies working there started hitting on me,it was great!Another thing I do is buy clothes on sale,wear them a bit and then sell them to a used clothing store in Berkeley,Ca..If you tell anyone my secrets you will be eliminated.Peace to you and yours.

Archy There little doubt that white men-and all men in general- have been thrown together in a stew of blame for all things gone wrong in the world.Nonetheless,the negative effects of a small percentage of white men has caused mayhem around the world.Two world wars,a civil war in America that yielded more deaths and casualties than all of Americas wars combined. And,of course Europe’s history of wars and conflicts is vast indeed,encompassing hundreds and hundreds of conflicts. Women played a central role in these conflicts and were anything but hapless innocents as feminism has portrayed them.

Jules My point is about accountability and consistency.For instance,to be a christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ’s principals,it is to be Christ like.Alexander the “Great” was a murderous meglomaniac who had more in common with that Austrian nut who lead Germany than Jesus Christ. Both Alexander and the Austrian wanted to make the world over in their image, lusting for domination and most importantly,power and legacy.And they were willing to kill millions.Are we just lambs being led to the slaughter or just puppets needing to told what to do by these leaders? If one believes this is ok,where does one’s belief in Jesus Christ fit exactly?.Excusing wars of conquest,and,the rape, murder,pillaging and genocide that are a part of war,I can’t understand. And now,because of technology advanced through perpetual war, the world sits on the edge of possible nuclear aninilation. Remember,two bombs have already been dropped.Who then decides which of these leaders is great and how can Jesus Christ be considered great too?You see there is a contradiction that is quite obvious to me.Gender politics aside,I’m discussing inconsistencies in values and belief systems that are casually explained away in western cultures.Millions of innocent lives are then the collateral damage of these inconsistencies in belief’s and values.Where is the logic?Where is the Christ like morality?

Very interesting. By comparison, I’d advice to read the great sci-fi novel “the left hand of darkness” by Ursula Le Guin. Why? Because she grew up with parents being social-anthropologists and was well groomed in this kind of field and then later, in this particular book, wrote about it in such a nice way that in the novel itself there’s this sort of study and questioning. I think you’d find it more than just interesting and more than meets the eye, also for this current reflection / debate.

Briefly put, what starts as some kind of sci-fi/fantasy mash-up, quickly escaltes into the philosophical studies of a society of androgynous humans, where war has never happened and the sex-drive we take for granted, as well as the social roles that come with it, do not exist. Quite elaborate and thought-provoking! Give it a go!

Transcending the desire to feel needed is just the first step in liberating oneself. When you can find some sort of peace when you feel both unneeded and unwanted, then you’ve really freed yourself from other people’s B.S.

Very good article… brings up an interesting point. I believe the feeling of needing to be needed comes from the traditional patriarchy that we still have a long ways to recover from. Women were (and still are) encouraged to be dependent on men. Men on the other hand are encouraged to be responsible for women. Everyone focuses on the psychology of dependent women but rarely ever to we see a discussion on men forced into responsible roles and the mental consequences of shifting gender roles. I hope one day, this will get sorted out as the patriarchy dissolves completely. In the meantime, articles like this promote healthy discussion vs just vilifying men.

I’ve always found it strange too, it’s not like like was overly easy for men forced to work to provide for a family in dangerous situations (nor women in England for instance nor children whom all genders n ages worked in very very dangerous factories, google phossy jaw for a very shocking eye opener!!!). In the U.S if you are too poor to pay child support I believe you can still be jailed. Work related stress is high as hell, there are plenty of things wrong with being the breadwinner especially in a slowing economy where your self-esteem is very much linked to your ability to provide, lots of men especially have committed suicide over these issues since 2008’s major financial fuckup.

Those sort of thoughts are something I had struggled with for a very long time. I feel I’ve overcome it for the most part over the past few years, but I can very much relate to that bitterness of feeling “unwantable” even if it was only in my head. There’s an awkward balancing act men seem to be expected to play in regards to flirtation and romance – on the one hand, there’s this historical expectation that men are to take the initiative and make the first approach. On the other hand, we frequently hear how much women are tired of being approached by men constantly and about what scumbags men are. Granted, there’s a lot of scummy guys out there. For many years, seven to be exact, I simply threw my hands up and said “fuck this game” and gave up. That was how I spent my late 20’s and early 30’s, a time when I should have been having lots of sexy fun was instead a very lonely time. I’m SO happy to have gotten past that!

Just the other day I was discussing relationships with a friend and stated that contrary to what I’d grown up with and desired for most of my life, nowadays I’d much rather be wanted than needed. When I hang out with my friends who are lonely and struggling with this sort of thing, I try to give some advice, but it can be so complicated and difficult to retrace the steps that got me out of that state of mind and it goes through some territory that most of them would not be ok with. Much of it wouldn’t be relevant to them anyhow.

But the gist of what I say to my romantically challenged guy friends is this:

Dance – Even if you don’t know how. It’s not the moves that are attractive so much as the willingness to cut loose and be silly. *also, bad dancing can be really f’n cute! And if you think that gorgeous goddess seems unapproachable, imagine what it’s like trying to approach some quiet, shadowy guy who’s trying not to be noticed.

Flirt! – For it’s own sake, without expectation. It’s fun and confidence boosting! Never hit on or pick up. IMO, this is one of the early clear distinctions between creeps and desirable men.

Forget the notion of the “friend zone” and be happy whenever you make a new friend. Make as many friends as you can!

Dance – Even if you don’t know how. It’s not the moves that are attractive so much as the willingness to cut loose and be silly. *also, bad dancing can be really f’n cute! And if you think that gorgeous goddess seems unapproachable, imagine what it’s like trying to approach some quiet, shadowy guy who’s trying not to be noticed.

I disagree, and have the backup of quite a few women on this.
There are few things as ridicolous (and not in the good way) as a man trying to dance and not knowing he’s making a fool of himself.

While this is an accurate depiction of my current (and typical) mental state, it simply reinforces it. I’m not sexy and I know it, and I don’t work out (ain’t nobody got time for that!); even if I did I’m still a scrawny motherfucker. Sure I have a good job, but that means little when I’ve never really felt desired or needed. C’est la vie.

” “I’m not sexy and I know it, and I don’t work out (ain’t nobody got time for that!)” ”

Jules is right, nobody is born sexy, you become sexy. And the most sexiest women I know, are the one 30+ so age is relative. Being sexy is something you learn, some people learn it from young age, others in adult age. Look for guides and fit you up.

But everything starts in the brain, from love to sex, from black magic to miracles. Change your way of thinking. I quote Tony Robbins ‘”If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. “‘ so change now.

I do think there is a corollary with women and not all men feel this. It comes down to attractiveness – if you fit the standard stereotypes of highly attractive (physically for women, physically or status-wise for men), then you know what it feels like to be wanted.

If you don’t fall into those stereotypes, you don’t know, not deep in your bones, until you find someone who wants you, who you want back. It took a long time for me to believe that men were attracted to me beyond just wanting to get laid (which is really not a high barrier – the stereotype is that most men will screw anything with a pulse, and getting rejected by a man for free sex is absolutely devastating). I have heard men tell me that they use their money or connections to attract women and women tell me they use their bodies/access to sex/caretaking roles to attract men, because in both cases, they believe nothing else will be attractive.

I do agree that men and women need to cultivate the sense that they are worthy people beyond finances, physical attractiveness, or what the other person gets out of it. We need to move beyond the transactional/commercialization of relationships, a quid pro quo attitude.

I want my husband because he is awesome, and brilliant and hard working and hilarious and an amazing father and fantastic cook and he makes me feel great about myself. I need him in terms of being a full partner in my life, but staying with him is an active choice I joyfully make.

Hi Siobhan
This is well said:
✺”I do agree that men and women need to cultivate the sense that they are worthy people beyond finances, physical attractiveness, or what the other person gets out of it. We need to move beyond the transactional/commercialization of relationships, a quid pro quo attitude.”✺

Our seems of self worth and our capacity to love.
It is about love all this struggle,unhappiness and longing.

You clearly see the reality of many relationships. There IS a lot of transactional/commercialization of relationships. Yet, many feminist ardently deny such exist with many women today. It is far more prevalent than they wish to acknowledge.

The sad truth is that it is not necessary for many highly educated and high income women. Our way of life here in America has become WIIFM (“What’s In It For Me”). This goes for both sexes.

That is very interesting, it’s a way of looking at the ‘crisis of masculinity’ I hadn’t considered. I would add to that that the whole men not being wanted goes hand in hand with several women’s issues. The first being that women, still, are viewed as not being supposed to feel sexual desire — see slut shaming. The second is that women for so long were told that they had no value without men, and in fact were not even considered their own persons, and were forced to be dependant, that they have swung towards the other way — not needing or wanting a man because they dont’ want to be beholden or vulnerable. It also should be pointed out that a lot of women feel the same way — if they aren’t needed, what’s the point in life? I think the issue is more complicated than stated in this article (especially with regards to feminism), but it is a very interesting thing to think about.

Iben How can that be done when everyone has a list of attributes they consider indispensible in a potential mate.Most agree that this list is a natural consequence of being an animal.I believe most species use this process in one way or another.I have read your list of preferences many times,some of which are on this thread.These lists are a necessary aspect of mate selection.For certain,some desired-wanted?,needed?-attributes are more shallow and base than others and have many negative consequences associated with them.Nonetheless,there must be a standard of evaluation available to determine whether some one is right for you.

The key thing you mentioned above is “indispensable.” Herein lies the problem in America today. We act like toddlers who just got to have that toy. It is crazy. He has to be over 6 feet tall. She has to be thin and fit. He has to make six figures. She has to be blond. Blah Blah Blah.

I go with a broad view. I would say 70%-80% of women I see everyday are physically fine by me. The rest are either too young, too old, or grossly overweight. Otherwise, I will talk to them, period. I don’t care about race, religion, ethnicity….

So long as she is a good human being, great personality, nice rear, kind, compassionate, intelligent……But, none of these things are real deal breakers for me, except for being a good person.

Hi Ogwriter
You write:
✺” I have read your list of preferences many times,some of which are on this thread.These lists are a necessary aspect of mate selection.For certain,some desired-wanted?,needed?-attributes are more shallow and base than others and have many negative consequences associated with them.Nonetheless,there must be a standard of evaluation available to determine whether some one is right for you.”✺

I can not remember that I have shared with you my list of deal-breakers. Have I done done that? My deal breakers has nothing to do with looks.

Just remember one important fact that you maybe overlook here ,AGE.

Are your girlfriend also 58 years old or considerably younger?
We are the same age group Ogwriter but when I write about what attracts me I am talking of men in my own age group and not men 20 -30 younger than me. Why? I am not naive.

Men are privileged and can choose women in all age groups Ogwriter and women can not unless we are celebrities. Never forget that fact in this discussion. Please for a few minutes try to imagine that you lived under the same age restrictions as women when it comes to finding love. I am talking about long term relationships and marriage ,not sexual happenings.

All this does not upset me. Lots of women are angry about it,I am not! It is life. But do not close your eyes to this in our discussion.

And I also talk about attraction I the sense long lasting attraction. The attraction strong enough to last in marriage for the rest of my life. I am not talking of attraction like for a fling,or attraction described as liking a man.

I like men where ever I go, the good looking doctor that fixes my ankle ,the old distinguish Pakistani that drives me home,my neighbor from Iran, the cute boys that flirt with me in my local super marked,my local priest,…the list is endless . But for me to enter a long lasting love relationship for life means I must believe deep in my heart that not only will I love this man,but also want physical intimacy with him .
Want him and like to have him physically close to me in a LONG TERM relationship.

My marriage did not last,it turned sour,and I lost attraction to my husband for thousands of reasons, He looked like Snowden,so it was nothing wrong with his looks.
Now I am scared to end up in the same situation, hurting a man by rejecting him sexually. I can not and will not go into a long term relationship and then leave the man because he no longer attracts me or excites me.
I have too much respect for other humans feelings to do that.

I can not like some men,solve the problem by finding a man 20-30 years younger than me.
By saying this I do not say that men choose younger women only because they are more sexually attractive. I think you fall in love.

“Now I am scared to end up in the same situation, hurting a man by rejecting him sexually. I can not and will not go into a long term relationship and then leave the man because he no longer attracts me or excites me.
I have too much respect for other humans feelings to do that.”

You made my day Iben. Really! I never thought I would ever hear a woman write such words. It means you have empathy, compassion, kindness, and respect for your fellow human beings.

This is why I am fond of you!

I always say that people who are into serial dating and serial monogamy have arrested development. All they are doing is discarding people like tossing the trash out when they are done with them.

Hello Iben So much to say…Well,I am in a dating conumdrum.Younger women are often too inexperienced and narrow-minded for me.Older women in America,unlike in Scandanavia,are exceedingly hypergamous and have other issues as well,insecurities about their looks,their age,coupled with unreal expectations relative to the aforementioned expectations.As a physical conditioning professional,I am paid to be sensitive and nonjudgmental about these things.In a relationship,I am less than enthused about tolerating such nonsense.A woman doesn’t have to be perfect or as fit as I am for me to find her attractive.Persistent bodyimage drama is a major turnoff for me.This attitude limits my dating options,no matter her age.So be it,I’d rather not deal with it.I can’t speak for why these asylum seekers don’t marry native women.The reasons could be cultural.Educated American women are not like Scandanavian women!Hypergamy and the denial of it is rampant in American culture.Statistically,not much specific info exists on female sex tourism.According anecdoctol info(interviews mostly),women tend to be upper middle and upper class.Many said they would be embarrassed,at home,to be seen taking a man of color home:especially just for sex. Most important to me is that the convoluted,self delusion mechanism these women employ in order to satisfy sexual urges-SANS COMMITMENT AND TRADITIONAL HYPERGAMY- appears to be cross cultural.I was amazed at how similar this behavior is to what I have seen and experienced as an American.It confirms,to me,that my cynicism about what women say and what they do is well founded.

“Men are privileged and can choose women in all age groups Ogwriter and women can not unless we are celebrities. ”

Wrong. Men whom are rich or celebrities have a much easier time finding a younger parnter but generally most people seem to stay within the 5 years or so of each other. Older women can find a younger partner.

I have no problems dating an older women for just somethign casual however I do want a family one day and the age difference will be too great, I’d like my wife to not be so far aged that her body is unable to keep up with me and the kids so a similar age is usually better but I’d probably allow + or – 10 years at my current age. Due to the non linear aging process this does get worse as we age where someone could date far younger vs far older if they are wanting someone whom is as healthy as they are or better. Ages 18-45 or 50? are the fertile years, with the fertility dropping significantly after 40 and the chance of problems increasing bigtime so a 35 year old can date 15 years younger with no problem cept maturity maybe whilst dating only 10 years older may mean his partner has extreme difficulty in getting pregnant and if it’s a male partner the quality of sperm dramatically reduces too with increased risks of birth defects. If you aren’t interested in kids then it’s a much easier choice but I one day would like a family of my own and go through similar stages of life as my partner, so I can’t date too much older if I was over 35. Remember that you’d need a few years to setup your home, get the love required or marriage for those that want it, can’t just jump in straight away with someone you may/may not wanna spend the rest of your life with.

I could maybe date an 18 year old (I am 28 now) but I think it may be very difficult unless she is quite mature, 21-23ish is probably my minimum in maturity wise. I am currently VERY VERY attracted to someone who is around 35-38, I think she is an amazing woman but is married so that will never happen lol but still it goes to show attraction can still be there for younger men and older women.

None of this means older people are worthless, it’s just that past a certain age I cannot date them for family sake, it’d have to be a relationship without kids which would drive me batty and adoption still leaves the issue of will she have the energy to keep up with us. My dad had me at 40, mum was 35, and by the time I was an adult he was 58 and already his body had suffered greatly, I don’t remember either of them really ever kicking ball or running with me. I wouldn’t want to be 55+ at my sons graduation, if I was I’d probably be dead by the time they have grandkids.

Hi Archy
You are right . And that is why I am not angry about this like so many women are.

For some reason nature intended it this way.
. I did not suggest that a man your age should give up a dream of staring a family and have children. You will be a great father Archy,you are intelligent,interesting and have personal experiences in life that others have not.

So I was not suggesting that men in your age group should date women over a certain age unless of course you fall in love and it feels right.
And as you know we do not age in the same space through life. The older you get the faster you age,so a large age different means the difference increases every year.
But let’s wish Tina Turmer at 73 happiness with her 57 year old husband.

You are a sympathetic man Archy. I you lived in an environment with more single women I think they soon would discover you and things might start to happen.

Thing about nature is that we really didn’t live much past 30-35 AFAIK, our society became much safer and allowed us to live far longer before we could evolve so we ended up with most people living past the age of reproduction.

My point was that neither can really choose without something to make them special, for women generally that is good looks and for men that is generally money/success/power. The average 50 year old male will have a hard time dating women who are in their 20’s.

Where I live bike riding is far more rare because it’s 10km+ to town and 100km+ to the nearest metro area, in hot n humid conditions and it rains many months of the year (in fact it is raining right now) so you can’t really ride anywhere often. Australia is also stupidly big, the nearest major city to me is like 2000km away which is quite a few countries wide in Europe.

Men are privileged and can choose women in all age groups Ogwriter and women can not unless we are celebrities. Never forget that fact in this discussion. Please for a few minutes try to imagine that you lived under the same age restrictions as women when it comes to finding love. I am talking about long term relationships and marriage ,not sexual happenings.

One thing to keep in mind here is that this (to whatever extent it is true) also opens up a far larger group for “competition” among men

Also, there are roughly 5% more boys than girls being born in most western countries, and most of this difference prevails throughout our productive and fertile ages. If we assume the portion of heterosexual individuals to be roughly equal in among both sexes, this means that 1 out of every 20 man reaching adulthood will not find a partner due to numbers alone…

Hi Flyingkal
Be glad you do not live on one of the countries that abort female fetuses an mass.

Maybe men should fight for polyandry?

I see no solution to the problem. Life is not fair. Wealth ,health and other important things in life is not distributed evenly,unfortunately.

If you managed that bicycle trip ( Rallarvegen)it sounds like you are healthy and strong. I have never been there.
Walking in the mountains from cabin to cabin is by many seens as a suburb way to meet a potential partner.

Hi Iben,
Yes I know. It seems that every time medical advances are made, there are new ways of abusing them.
One problem, I believe, is that at least in Nordic countries, is that they can determine with somewhat security the sex of the baby before the legal, no-questions-asked time limit. I don’t think it’s much of a problem here, but I’ve read a few paper articles that it seems to be more boys than girls being aborted this way.

Yes, although not very muscular, I am in pretty good shape. Always has been. That’s why I tend to get a little crossed whenever someone says that I just need to get in shape to be attractive and get some attention…
I don’t go to gyms, and I hate jogging. I do more of biking, hiking, some (mountain) climbing, and whatever fun you can do out in the back-country. Actually met some people in the fjordlands, but that turned into a history of its own. I’ll just need to stew on it a bit before I’m ready to share it (Nothing happened…!)

Jules How goes it? Let me play devil’s advocate:no surprise there.How willing are you to be flexible when it comes to your preference for a mate with a nice rearend?Come on man…tell the truth.I know I won’t.

How willing are you to be flexible when it comes to your preference for a mate with a nice rearend?

Hmmmmm. Lol!!!

Well, here is the thing. I am not into skinny women, in general, at all. Right after my divorce, I dated a thin sista who was only 26 (and a single mom). She was my waitress at a restaurant. It lasted about 6 months. There just sex and my $$$$ in common. Being honest. But, she had a nice rear on her, even though she was a size 2. Also, got sick of hearing about the Illuminati crap.

The sole reason I went for her was I was fresh out of sexless marriage with ZERO sex for nearly 3 years. I told her the whole story. So, my thinking was younger women are more sexual than the older woman I just divorced. I was trying to recover what had been stolen from me!

My ideal is a woman in my age range (just turned 51 on Tuesday), a size 10 or so, good person…..usually women this size tend to have nice asses. But, honestly, even if she did not (so long as it was not an ironing board), I would date her for a long term relationship. But, I do like a sexual woman. I will NEVER go through what I went through with my ex wife. Never again.

This is what I like about Iben,

“Now I am scared to end up in the same situation, hurting a man by rejecting him sexually. I can not and will not go into a long term relationship and then leave the man because he no longer attracts me or excites me.
I have too much respect for other humans feelings to do that.”

She understands the human side and dignity that is involved in denying her man sex. Very very very few women in America get this.

I have tried to spark conversation about how selective and hypocritical many women are in how they apply standards of transactionalism/commercialism to different men.For instance, well to do women have no problem relaxing their standards under the right circumstances.Such as when wealhty European,Scandanavian,Japanese,White American and Black American women gladly throw those standards under the bus in pursuit poor men AND boy’s of OTHER countries for sex and lightweight companionship.These women,when in their own countries,behave quite differently.

Hi Ogwriter
You write✺ :”For instance, well to do women have no problem relaxing their standards under the right circumstances.Such as when wealhty European,Scandanavian,Japanese,White American and Black American women gladly throw those standards under the bus in pursuit poor men AND boy’s of OTHER countries for sex and lightweight companionship.These women,when in their own countries,behave quite differently.”✺

I wish I had statistical facts about this from my own country but I don”t.

First let me say that I see white and Japanese women’s sex tourism to places like Kenya and Gambia as disgrace and I am ashamed. Even if is prostition in disguise( I do not support prostitution). I would like to see some good research on the background and educational level of these women. Any moral compass there ?

You see Ogwriter an uneducated women in Norway can afford a charter trip to Gambia once in a while if that is her dream. They do not have to be wealthy in their own country to buy a trip like that. Even to buy an apartment for a kept lover cost less than buying a car here.

But take a trip to Scandinavia one day Ogwriter. Here you will see that women here do marry asylum seekers from all over the world,of different colors and nationalities. They fall in love and marry. My city has inhabitants 30% with a back ground from other countries, and many are poor when they come here. Not many blue eyes kids here any longer.

I may be wrong but it is my impression many groups of refugees ,asylum seeker and immigrants will never marry Scandinavian women because THEY do not want to,or are not permitted to do so by their families. Cultural traditions with arranged or forced marries are still very much alive. Tamils marry Tamils,Pakistani marry Pakistanis …Somalis marry Somalis…. Muslims prefer Muslims..

What happens sexually is another story.

Often It is NOT Scandinavian women that say no, it is the other way around. A sort of segregation.
I will not try to give an explanation of this phenomena. You see it all over Scandinavia.

Yes, that seems to always be the case, everywhere. It’s funny that some of the 9/11 hijackers talked bout getting prostitutes before their acts of grand terrorism. Yet, they viewed themselves as martyrs.

This is what I as a person cannot do: I cannot have sex with a woman, who in my mind, I know is not worthy of being my long term partner. I feel I am de-humanizing the woman. I cannot bring myself to do it. I have done it only once, right after my divorce. To this day, I feel guilt over it.

“I may be wrong but it is my impression many groups of refugees ,asylum seeker and immigrants will never marry Scandinavian women because THEY do not want to,or are not permitted to do so by their families. Cultural traditions with arranged or forced marries are still very much alive. Tamils marry Tamils,Pakistani marry Pakistanis …Somalis marry Somalis…. Muslims prefer Muslims..

What happens sexually is another story.

Often It is NOT Scandinavian women that say no, it is the other way around. A sort of segregation.
I will not try to give an explanation of this phenomena. You see it all over Scandinavia.”

Yes I agree, it fit’s my experience 100%. Less women are interested in having a relationship with a foreigner now than 10y ago, I often experience that girls/women dont mind or sometimes they even ask me directly for some fun time. But after they find a danish boyfriend.

I also know few moslim guys who swear they dont want a Danish girl again. They either look for one of their own culture or for at least another moslem. I have a Iraqi friend, who was in a relationship with a gorgeous danish girl who live not far from me (she has now kids and danish boyfriend) and they were always fighting. One day I remember she was holding a party with her friends, and her boyfriend came with two cars full of anden G’er (in danish means second generation immigrants) they rushed in (I was saying to my self…oh oh now there is trouble) her home, and all I could hear was screaming and yelling. After a while he and his friend left. I walked in her place asking if all is ok, and she told me to take a beer and join them: ” I have just broke up, I dont wont him to control my life”. Later I spoke with him (the Iraqi guy) and he swear on the quoran never again a danish girl ” walla habibi I swear, never again a Dane, never ever, im done with them”, today he is with a woman from his country.

The cultural differences are simply to big, I dont say it cant work, but when it does its usually because one of the partners submit to one culture or the other. Otherwise is a never ending fighting, call it WWIII.

I had several friends with benefits this year, nearly all of them after few months of sex, they went into a relationship with a native guy. Beside one, witch I politely refused her proposal for a relationship. How do I feel about it? im cool also because right now I dont have time for a relationship. I barely have time to write here

I also remember few months ago, I was with a girl named Susan (I call her Susan but she has a different name) a “lover ” of mine, that day I toke a day off from my work at the club, so me and Susan went into another club to have a good time. After a while, a Nigerian friend of mine, approached me, he was in company of a gorgeous Scandinavian looking woman, tall blond angelic face, big blue eyes and all that. He asked me if I know her. My answer was no, I never seen her before. Well she was into the club where I work asking for me. She even went to the owner asking for my number. Disappointed she went with my friend.
Well I tell you, I never seen a woman being more “hungry” than her. She was eating me alive with her eyes. She ignored both the Nigerian dude and my lover girl, and she glued herself on me (not litterally of course), following me everywhere. Literally drooling. It was actually embarrassing, also because I was in company with Susan. Well at a certain point I went to the bathroom, she followed me. Oh supertypo, you are ‘handsome and charming’ lets go somewhere else me and you *blink*. I refused, for two reason, as I said before first I was in company,and second she was also in company with a friend. So logically I said no, but I toke her number, promising her to call her the day after. After that she went home (alone) and me Susan and the Nigerian we had a good laugh. The day after I trow the number away in disgust. She is married with a fool with a Tom Selleck mustache and she have also children. I dont fun-around with women in relationship. I actually hate when people in relationship seek fun somewhere else (unless its consensual, like swingers, bulls/hot wifes etc)

And finally few days ago I was on SCOR (since, Iben you are Scandinavian you probably have heard of this specific dating site) I was typing with a woman from my area. She had visited my profile several times before, so I decided to have a chat with her. All was going fine until she ask me if I was native danish. Naturally I told her the truth, well she pulled back, not interested. I was offended, because if she visited my profile (witch she did), she knew where im from, so the question was stupid indeed, even as a excuse. But this is not all. The day after I got a letter from her, where she apologized and she couldn stop thinking of me. So she ask me if I could visit her at her home but she doesnt want a relationship with me right now, just fun. My reaction may seem surprising for some but I refused. I dont have time today, gotta work bye. Sorry but if you are rude and offensive on me, what in heaven makes you think I want to reward you sending your butt to wonderland? Pleaseeeee.

Well It may sound that im a player or I have a easy time with women. Nothing more far from the truth but being a bit dark and a DJ it gives me a advantage. But usually the women I have interest in are not interested, the others I dont care about chase me. And yes,lot of non-natives are less interested in having a long term relation with a danish woman, and vice versa. At least that is my observation.

Mr. Supertypo:Well It may sound that im a player or I have a easy time with women. Nothing more far from the truth but being a bit dark and a DJ it gives me a advantage. But usually the women I have interest in are not interested, the others I dont care about chase me.

Well, aren’t you the unlucky one…
(Just kidding!)

The women I know usually have kids and are into their third or fourth relationship after their divorce. So the disinterest is mostly mutual, ha!

“I have tried to spark conversation about how selective and hypocritical many women are in how they apply standards of transactionalism/commercialism to different men.”

Good luck!

We don’t even have to go overseas and examine the “rent-a-rasta” thingy, unless we want to make it international. I guess we should as things really are global. But, vast hypocritical behavior exist right here in the USA.

Most of the regular female and vocal feminists will never engage in this debate. What’s equally baffling is their unwillingness to even deny it! Pure radio silence is the usual non response.

Awesome article. Women aren’t going back the way of the house wife from the 1800s. Men need to start looking at the Plan B. Men are stuck in this position because they chose not to see women as an equal in society. You all laugh at sexist jokes, tell women ‘stop being emotional’ and expect them to fall helpless at your feet.

Frankly necro if you think the guys on this site wants women to go back, then you not only are wrong but you are borderline trolling. Maybe you mistaken this site for another? it happens sometimes you know….

Well guys should realize that there is always going to be someone who needs and wants us. OURSELVES! Focus on being there for yourself and being the best you can be. YOU are always going to need yourself more than anyone. If you are your own best friend and supporter, a lot of the rest of the pieces will fall into place.

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