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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

Dear Mary, Is the Holy Spirit keeping you within Catholicism even as the Spirit is leading you somewhere that you are quite afraid to acknowledge - kinda like Jonah didn't really want to go to Nineveh?

Quote

The only parish community offering vesperal services was the local OCA parish, and so I began to attend. That set off an oddessy odyssey that has still not reached its denouement

Why attack Orthodoxy and Father Ambrose when you attend an OCA Church (which was probably an Eastern Catholic Church once upon a time)? If you no longer attend an OCA Church for Vespers, then the blog needs to be updated.

Why attack Isa and refer to him pejoratively as a "Pope" when you mentioned how you catechized people to the Roman Catholic faith? Did you use pejorative terms for your catechists when they disagreed with or had questions on Rome's teachings (a cursory glance at RICA websites indicates a focus on Mysteries and not on Rome's teachings during one's cathecumenate ... hence, make them Catholic as quickly as possible and allow the "newly unillumined" to discover how restrictive their new found faith has become? )?

You and I do share this much. I think it is foolish for the Catholic Church to try and present any kind of united face with Orthodoxy over social or moral issues, as long as this kind of "dialogue" persists among the faithful. I think the world would laugh at us. Better not to pretend.

I leave all the posturing to Todd. I don't need to do any of that to prove anything to anyone, least of all you.

I am not posturing; instead, I am stating my views on the nature of the Church in a sincere and charitable manner.

I thought about this yesterday, Todd and I hope that you will accept my genuine apology. I don't mean to speak down to you when I say that over the years I've watched you mature in many ways, and I am proud of you on this Forum in particular for your prudence in selecting the words you use to convey the meaning you hope to convey. I did not say anything immediately hoping that you would weigh in yourself and then I could write this in reply.

I am much more comfortable living with paradox and accepting things in the Roman rite that may not be precisely the same in the eastern Churches. I don't see conflict where you do. I don't interpret many things the way you do. But you certainly are free to explore and to believe as you believe.

So I am happy to be able to make this apology and hope that you understand the spirit in which I make it.

You may be as oppositional as you like in whatever terms you choose. There is no friendship between us that I seek to preserve. I forgive you and will continue to push back when you misrepresent me or my Church.

You are always welcome to my home. There you will find what you think you already know. It may or may not substantiate you nastiness toward me...

I do not wish to be nasty towards you, Mary, and I remember happier days in our correspondence a few years ago. But I have been scandalised by your attempts to attack Orthodoxy, with allegations about abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception, etc. As this aspect of your apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what you write needs opposing. In this respect Fr Ambrose Young has been an eye opener for me since he never allows you to get away with disinformation nor does he allow you to pretend that there is agreement in areas where there is not. I have learnt from him.

Dear Mary, Is the Holy Spirit keeping you within Catholicism even as the Spirit is leading you somewhere that you are quite afraid to acknowledge - kinda like Jonah didn't really want to go to Nineveh?

No. There was a time when I considered entering Orthodoxy but I would have been similar to a Father Lev Gillet in so far as he sought to heal what needs to be healed between us. I would be doing precisely what I do now had I translated into Orthodoxy, using people like Father Lev to press certain points that I press today, and correcting those terrible misapprehensions about the Catholic Church that are endemic in Orthodoxy. In the light of that desire, I spent many liturgical cycles in an Orthodox parish. I still see that parish as my home locally for many reasons, also spending time with eastern Catholics and periodically receiving sacraments in a Latin rite parish that is closer to me than any other. I have severe financial restrictions and sometimes can only afford to drive to someplace away from here two or three times a month, so I am in something of a difficult period and have been for some years. I take care of an 80 year old mother as well. I am sure all of this will be used against me here at some point so I will leave it at this for now.

But no. I have no desire to leave the Catholic Church. I am where I need to be, in Christ.

Why attack Orthodoxy and Father Ambrose when you attend an OCA Church (which was probably an Eastern Catholic Church once upon a time)? If you no longer attend an OCA Church for Vespers, then the blog needs to be updated.

Why attack Isa and refer to him pejoratively as a "Pope" when you mentioned how you catechized people to the Roman Catholic faith? Did you use pejorative terms for your catechists when they disagreed with or had questions on Rome's teachings (a cursory glance at RICA websites indicates a focus on Mysteries and not on Rome's teachings during one's cathecumenate ... hence, make them Catholic as quickly as possible and allow the "newly unillumined" to discover how restrictive their new found faith has become? )?

(a cursory glance at RICA websites indicates a focus on Mysteries and not on Rome's teachings during one's cathecumenate ... hence, make them Catholic as quickly as possible and allow the "newly unillumined" to discover how restrictive their new found faith has become? )?

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

(a cursory glance at RICA websites indicates a focus on Mysteries and not on Rome's teachings during one's cathecumenate ... hence, make them Catholic as quickly as possible and allow the "newly unillumined" to discover how restrictive their new found faith has become? )?

The personal snipes are beneath one who catechizes.

Sigh.

Are all the relevant Papal Encyclicals and Papal dogmatics discussed in RICA? I won't get a chance to find out and maybe you can enlighten "unillumined" folks like me?

(a cursory glance at RICA websites indicates a focus on Mysteries and not on Rome's teachings during one's cathecumenate ... hence, make them Catholic as quickly as possible and allow the "newly unillumined" to discover how restrictive their new found faith has become? )?

The personal snipes are beneath one who catechizes.

Sigh.

Are all the relevant Papal Encyclicals and Papal dogmatics discussed in RICA? I won't get a chance to find out and maybe you can enlighten "unillumined" folks like me?

But no. I have no desire to leave the Catholic Church. I am where I need to be, in Christ.

Mary

As hollow as it may sound to you, I respect what you do for your mother amidst the circumstances you described. The separation between Orthodox and Catholicism remains vast and may the Lord have mercy on all of us as we carry our crosses and our burdens to whatever awaits us....

But no. I have no desire to leave the Catholic Church. I am where I need to be, in Christ.

Mary

As hollow as it may sound to you, I respect what you do for your mother amidst the circumstances you described. The separation between Orthodox and Catholicism remains vast and may the Lord have mercy on all of us as we carry our crosses and our burdens to whatever awaits us....

Lord have Mercy.

It is a grace that she is as strong and alert and capable as she is at her age. It is a rare privilege to walk this walk with her.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

I just finished reading all of Humanae Vitae and I did not see anywhere that stated people will "go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse." Do you have a quote?

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

I just finished reading all of Humanae Vitae and I did not see anywhere that stated people will "go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse." Do you have a quote?

It's been thoroughly discussed in the numerous threads on the subject.

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

That is my understanding of Roman Catholic theology. I do not have to justify it any more than you can justify Orthodox theology on any topic.

But no. I have no desire to leave the Catholic Church. I am where I need to be, in Christ.

Mary

As hollow as it may sound to you, I respect what you do for your mother amidst the circumstances you described. The separation between Orthodox and Catholicism remains vast and may the Lord have mercy on all of us as we carry our crosses and our burdens to whatever awaits us....

Lord have Mercy.

It is a grace that she is as strong and alert and capable as she is at her age. It is a rare privilege to walk this walk with her.

My Godfather turns 91 next month and he's still very active in his community. Every moment spent with my Godparents is a blessing.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

I just finished reading all of Humanae Vitae and I did not see anywhere that stated people will "go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse." Do you have a quote?

It's been thoroughly discussed in the numerous threads on the subject.

Ok. So you don't have a quote and you are just pushing misconceptions. Got it.

Sorry if I gave this impression. Just that the former Patriarch of the ACOE said that the begotten enemies of God believe that the "Church is built on Peter" , and also condemned the teaching that Christ is not ruling over us as our High Priest- we need no such thing as a "vicar of Christ", and this Pope business is harming the Roman Catholic Church amd preventing Church unity. The Office of Pope is not scriptural, where is the Bishop of Rome? I want him back please not a "Pope".

But Catholics do believe that Christ is ruling over us as our High Priest.

Debatable. It's a matter of perspective. Just as, from our perspective, the filioque compromises the doctrine of the Trinity, so the papacy is seen as compromising the High Priesthood of Christ

Wow. You and Isa are in competition for the most ridiculous posts of the month. If I were to follow you on this I would have say that your concept of the Bishop as shepherd of his flock would compromise Christ's role as the good shepherd.

It would be ironic if you felt that way, since we do have extremely similar views on the Bishop as shepherd. But yes, his point is that from our perspective there is concern that the Papacy, as constructed currently, has taken Christ's place (nudged Him aside, rather than St. Ignatios' concept of "type and place") as the One Head of the Church. We've given our reasons why; as I mentioned in another thread - from our POV, your lips say, "no," but your actions (and, in this case, dogma, etc.) say, "yes."

Which is simply stupid and childish on your part. When it comes t your Bishops your lips say "no" but your actions say "yes". Of course here is the image of your church:Each Bishop as the head of his diocese.

Papist my Brother....are you blind !!!

You have just given me a perfect picture of what the Papacy is ! The "root" or trunk of the beast from which all the heads sprout is not Christ but a dark underbelly thing with no purpose other than to drag us down. The heads are the cardinals, the piercing teeth the disunion they cause in the church. Their colour too is red, and maybe for the same reason...

It is an aberration with no root in the Apostles! This office of "Pope" MUST be destroyed so that the Church can reunite. It must. A year or so ago, a common declaration of sacraments was about to be signed between the ACOE and the RCC (imagine that - the Easternmost Church and Westernmost Church united in sacraments) but then a Cardinal gave the Assyrian Patriarch a letter saying this would mean union with the RCC, submitting to as a cardinal (an insult to Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV !) Obviously this false union did not happen, will NEVER happen. EVER. So close to unity but the Pope ruined it!

Again here, the Orthodox humbly asking for this "Pope" thing to go, be abolished, let the "Papatia" (the pope heresy) be gone, reinstate the Bishop/Patriarch of Rome and end the schism. Pour your energies into ending the office of Pope and starting, blessing the office of Bishop of Rome!

Papist, here is a good depiction of how the Church really is:

Cease boasting about the falsehood of the Church being "built on Peter" :

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

-Romans 11:19-21

Saint Paul wrote to the Church of Rome warning them that they could be cutoff. You have a sandy foundation Papist...a "pope". If you donot take nourishment from the root what will happen...? The OC, OO, and ACOE, have another Foundation which is Christ.

'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

-Revelation 2:5

Saint Paul wrote of the faith in Rome which was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Romans 1:. From great heights come great falls. Remember Satan.

Sorry if I gave this impression. Just that the former Patriarch of the ACOE said that the begotten enemies of God believe that the "Church is built on Peter" , and also condemned the teaching that Christ is not ruling over us as our High Priest- we need no such thing as a "vicar of Christ", and this Pope business is harming the Roman Catholic Church amd preventing Church unity. The Office of Pope is not scriptural, where is the Bishop of Rome? I want him back please not a "Pope".

But Catholics do believe that Christ is ruling over us as our High Priest.

Debatable. It's a matter of perspective. Just as, from our perspective, the filioque compromises the doctrine of the Trinity, so the papacy is seen as compromising the High Priesthood of Christ

Wow. You and Isa are in competition for the most ridiculous posts of the month. If I were to follow you on this I would have say that your concept of the Bishop as shepherd of his flock would compromise Christ's role as the good shepherd.

It would be ironic if you felt that way, since we do have extremely similar views on the Bishop as shepherd. But yes, his point is that from our perspective there is concern that the Papacy, as constructed currently, has taken Christ's place (nudged Him aside, rather than St. Ignatios' concept of "type and place") as the One Head of the Church. We've given our reasons why; as I mentioned in another thread - from our POV, your lips say, "no," but your actions (and, in this case, dogma, etc.) say, "yes."

Which is simply stupid and childish on your part. When it comes t your Bishops your lips say "no" but your actions say "yes". Of course here is the image of your church:Each Bishop as the head of his diocese.

Papist my Brother....are you blind !!!

You have just given me a perfect picture of what the Papacy is ! The "root" or trunk of the beast from which all the heads sprout is not Christ but a dark underbelly thing with no purpose other than to drag us down. The heads are the cardinals, the piercing teeth the disunion they cause in the church. Their colour too is red, and maybe for the same reason...

It is an aberration with no root in the Apostles! This office of "Pope" MUST be destroyed so that the Church can reunite. It must. A year or so ago, a common declaration of sacraments was about to be signed between the ACOE and the RCC (imagine that - the Easternmost Church and Westernmost Church united in sacraments) but then a Cardinal gave the Assyrian Patriarch a letter saying this would mean union with the RCC, submitting to as a cardinal (an insult to Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV !) Obviously this false union did not happen, will NEVER happen. EVER. So close to unity but the Pope ruined it!

Again here, the Orthodox humbly asking for this "Pope" thing to go, be abolished, let the "Papatia" (the pope heresy) be gone, reinstate the Bishop/Patriarch of Rome and end the schism. Pour your energies into ending the office of Pope and starting, blessing the office of Bishop of Rome!

Papist, here is a good depiction of how the Church really is:

Cease boasting about the falsehood of the Church being "built on Peter" :

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

-Romans 11:19-21

Saint Paul wrote to the Church of Rome warning them that they could be cutoff. You have a sandy foundation Papist...a "pope". If you donot take nourishment from the root what will happen...? The OC, OO, and ACOE, have another Foundation which is Christ.

'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

-Revelation 2:5

Saint Paul wrote of the faith in Rome which was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Romans 1:. From great heights come great falls. Remember Satan.

Rafa, I am sorry my friend, but I am probably not going to look to your church for theological, or even ecclesiologial guidance, until your church recognizes the danger of its own theological language, which so easily tends towards nestorianism.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

That is my understanding of Roman Catholic theology. I do not have to justify it any more than you can justify Orthodox theology on any topic.

Brilliant reasoning. I can say any untruth about your Church and it becomes true because that is how I understand it.

True genius. I wish I'd had the coins to do that in my graduate theses. Would have saved a great deal of time.

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

You and I do share this much. I think it is foolish for the Catholic Church to try and present any kind of united face with Orthodoxy over social or moral issues, as long as this kind of "dialogue" persists among the faithful. I think the world would laugh at us. Better not to pretend.

To what 'dialogue' are you referring? To me it seems that you must be referring to the followers of this board and a few other internet forums. I have had extended and ongoing conversations over the years with both Orthodox and Catholic, Eastern and Western, clergy and scholars and have never been bogged down in such ad hominems and exaggerated polemic that pass for 'discussion' here. Likewise, I have been involved all of my life on the parish and community level with clergy and faithful of my Orthodox parish and others along with Catholics, (both East and West) and have never been in such a discussion where insults and pejoratives are used as rhetorical spears as they are online.

Could it be that hidden behind the walls of relative anonymity within the closed doors of our studies or dens, it is much easier to speak from passions of emotion rather than by expressing true Christian patience, knowledge or understanding?

Like St. Paul says in First Corinthians: "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

To me there is a whole lot of 'clanging' going on here and little 'love' as envisioned by St. Paul.

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 02:48:14 PM by Papist »

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Sorry if I gave this impression. Just that the former Patriarch of the ACOE said that the begotten enemies of God believe that the "Church is built on Peter" , and also condemned the teaching that Christ is not ruling over us as our High Priest- we need no such thing as a "vicar of Christ", and this Pope business is harming the Roman Catholic Church amd preventing Church unity. The Office of Pope is not scriptural, where is the Bishop of Rome? I want him back please not a "Pope".

But Catholics do believe that Christ is ruling over us as our High Priest.

Debatable. It's a matter of perspective. Just as, from our perspective, the filioque compromises the doctrine of the Trinity, so the papacy is seen as compromising the High Priesthood of Christ

Wow. You and Isa are in competition for the most ridiculous posts of the month. If I were to follow you on this I would have say that your concept of the Bishop as shepherd of his flock would compromise Christ's role as the good shepherd.

It would be ironic if you felt that way, since we do have extremely similar views on the Bishop as shepherd. But yes, his point is that from our perspective there is concern that the Papacy, as constructed currently, has taken Christ's place (nudged Him aside, rather than St. Ignatios' concept of "type and place") as the One Head of the Church. We've given our reasons why; as I mentioned in another thread - from our POV, your lips say, "no," but your actions (and, in this case, dogma, etc.) say, "yes."

Which is simply stupid and childish on your part. When it comes t your Bishops your lips say "no" but your actions say "yes". Of course here is the image of your church:Each Bishop as the head of his diocese.

Papist my Brother....are you blind !!!

You have just given me a perfect picture of what the Papacy is ! The "root" or trunk of the beast from which all the heads sprout is not Christ but a dark underbelly thing with no purpose other than to drag us down. The heads are the cardinals, the piercing teeth the disunion they cause in the church. Their colour too is red, and maybe for the same reason...

It is an aberration with no root in the Apostles! This office of "Pope" MUST be destroyed so that the Church can reunite. It must. A year or so ago, a common declaration of sacraments was about to be signed between the ACOE and the RCC (imagine that - the Easternmost Church and Westernmost Church united in sacraments) but then a Cardinal gave the Assyrian Patriarch a letter saying this would mean union with the RCC, submitting to as a cardinal (an insult to Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV !) Obviously this false union did not happen, will NEVER happen. EVER. So close to unity but the Pope ruined it!

That type of "union" is centuires old. The former ACCE bishop Bawai entered it just recently. So it has already happened, and there is a Chaldean cardinal.

Btw, I think Catholicos Ilya of Georgia is the Easternmost Patriarch. Mar Dikha is in the Midwest. And there is an Indian Orthodox Catholicos as well.

Again here, the Orthodox humbly asking for this "Pope" thing to go, be abolished, let the "Papatia" (the pope heresy) be gone, reinstate the Bishop/Patriarch of Rome and end the schism. Pour your energies into ending the office of Pope and starting, blessing the office of Bishop of Rome!

Papist, here is a good depiction of how the Church really is:

Cease boasting about the falsehood of the Church being "built on Peter" :

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

-Romans 11:19-21

Saint Paul wrote to the Church of Rome warning them that they could be cutoff. You have a sandy foundation Papist...a "pope". If you donot take nourishment from the root what will happen...? The OC, OO, and ACOE, have another Foundation which is Christ.

'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

-Revelation 2:5

Saint Paul wrote of the faith in Rome which was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Romans 1:. From great heights come great falls. Remember Satan.

True enough.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

not if it confess an adulterated creed, you're not.

And no, we never had the indulgence system upon which your purgatory depends, and so no, we never believed in purgatory. And no, we subscribed to the Scholastics argument for argument sake which has made your dogmas on Original Sin (the IC, etc.) unrecognizable to the Fathers.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

That is my understanding of Roman Catholic theology. I do not have to justify it any more than you can justify Orthodox theology on any topic.

Brilliant reasoning. I can say any untruth about your Church and it becomes true because that is how I understand it.

Most of us live by understandings because we do not have the "coins" or the "dice" to really discover the "facts" about Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy remains a simple faith, unadulterated by the thousands upon thousands of Papal Encyclicals, Papal Bulls and other Papal documents that are legally binding on every Catholic of every flavor throughout the world.

I have many RC friends; I do not discuss theology with them because I don't want to engage in these "clanging of cymbals" discussions as experienced on the Internet. However, because the Catholics and Orthodox are passionate (yup, that's not a healthy condition) about their stances, the only way to learn about the other's position is to "clang the cymbals" because we can also Praise God through the "clanging of the cymbals" just as Elijah ordered fire down from Heaven to burn the water drenched sacrifices

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

not if it confess an adulterated creed, you're not.

And no, we never had the indulgence system upon which your purgatory depends, and so no, we never believed in purgatory. And no, we subscribed to the Scholastics argument for argument sake which has made your dogmas on Original Sin (the IC, etc.) unrecognizable to the Fathers.

Nope. You used to believe in purgatory (and, btw, it's dishonest to say that it depends on indulgences, as it clearly does not) and you believe in real original sin at one point. You souldn't lie about your own history.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

That is my understanding of Roman Catholic theology. I do not have to justify it any more than you can justify Orthodox theology on any topic.

Brilliant reasoning. I can say any untruth about your Church and it becomes true because that is how I understand it.

Most of us live by understandings because we do not have the "coins" or the "dice" to really discover the "facts" about Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy remains a simple faith, unadulterated by the thousands upon thousands of Papal Encyclicals, Papal Bulls and other Papal documents that are legally binding on every Catholic of every flavor throughout the world.

I have many RC friends; I do not discuss theology with them because I don't want to engage in these "clanging of cymbals" discussions as experienced on the Internet. However, because the Catholics and Orthodox are passionate (yup, that's not a healthy condition) about their stances, the only way to learn about the other's position is to "clang the cymbals" because we can also Praise God through the "clanging of the cymbals" just as Elijah ordered fire down from Heaven to burn the water drenched sacrifices

True genius. I wish I'd had the coins to do that in my graduate theses. Would have saved a great deal of time.

Big risks = Big rewards (if one has nothing to lose)

Eastern Orthodoxy is not a simple faith at all. It changes to meet the current theological winds. For example, you used believe in Purgatory and Original sin, but now that it's in style to be as anti-Latin as possible you don't. How unfortunate.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

not if it confess an adulterated creed, you're not.

And no, we never had the indulgence system upon which your purgatory depends, and so no, we never believed in purgatory. And no, we subscribed to the Scholastics argument for argument sake which has made your dogmas on Original Sin (the IC, etc.) unrecognizable to the Fathers.

Nope. You used to believe in purgatory

Still sticking to the Hindu historiography, if you repeat the mantra it makes it so, I see.

Quote

(and, btw, it's dishonest to say that it depends on indulgences, as it clearly does not)

and you believe in real original sin at one point. You souldn't lie about your own history.

I don't even lie about your history, though it hurts.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Attack Orthodoxy? I don't attack Orthodoxy. I push back at men like Isa and Father Ambrose when they attack the Catholic Church and make a mockery of all that is good. I do that indeed.

You have dice lecturing me morally and referring to Catholic catechumen as the newly unillumined.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

So what you would argue is that the Church of Rome teaches that 'all' who commit these unnatural acts are fully culpable in their sin and thus commit a Mortal Sin cutting themselves off from Sanctifying Grace that extends to them Eternal Life? Is that honestly what you are suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

That is my understanding of Roman Catholic theology. I do not have to justify it any more than you can justify Orthodox theology on any topic.

Brilliant reasoning. I can say any untruth about your Church and it becomes true because that is how I understand it.

Most of us live by understandings because we do not have the "coins" or the "dice" to really discover the "facts" about Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy remains a simple faith, unadulterated by the thousands upon thousands of Papal Encyclicals, Papal Bulls and other Papal documents that are legally binding on every Catholic of every flavor throughout the world.

I have many RC friends; I do not discuss theology with them because I don't want to engage in these "clanging of cymbals" discussions as experienced on the Internet. However, because the Catholics and Orthodox are passionate (yup, that's not a healthy condition) about their stances, the only way to learn about the other's position is to "clang the cymbals" because we can also Praise God through the "clanging of the cymbals" just as Elijah ordered fire down from Heaven to burn the water drenched sacrifices

True genius. I wish I'd had the coins to do that in my graduate theses. Would have saved a great deal of time.

Big risks = Big rewards (if one has nothing to lose)

Eastern Orthodoxy is not a simple faith at all.

Freely you have received; Freely give. (Matthew 10:8 )

When one is received into Roman Catholicism; one is automatically bounded by the IC, by Humanae Vitae, et al. as the price paid upon entering the Catholic Communion. What is there to give back when one has to obey more canon laws, some of them have automatic and permanent excommunications without recourse via Penance, than civil laws?

Quote

In worldly everyday conversations; we hear the familiar phrase…Nothing is free in life. Now the reality…freedom of any kind is a gift that is presented with a cost of humanity, dignity and the sharing with others. We need not receive a penny for a favor; but await a reward of gratitude and joyful heart of another human being.…!

Most of us live by understandings because we do not have the "coins" or the "dice" to really discover the "facts" about Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy remains a simple faith, unadulterated by the thousands upon thousands of Papal Encyclicals, Papal Bulls and other Papal documents that are legally binding on every Catholic of every flavor throughout the world.

I have many RC friends; I do not discuss theology with them because I don't want to engage in these "clanging of cymbals" discussions as experienced on the Internet. However, because the Catholics and Orthodox are passionate (yup, that's not a healthy condition) about their stances, the only way to learn about the other's position is to "clang the cymbals" because we can also Praise God through the "clanging of the cymbals" just as Elijah ordered fire down from Heaven to burn the water drenched sacrifices

True genius. I wish I'd had the coins to do that in my graduate theses. Would have saved a great deal of time.

Big risks = Big rewards (if one has nothing to lose)

I thought I had something to lose back then...till I lost it all and realized it was nothing after all.

I do understand your perspective with the rest of your comments here. To a certain extent I think it is a very hopeful observation and one that does acknowledge that many of us who slog through these discussions...bashing and clanging...do so because we have some fundamental love for our respective confessions.

It is the truly destructive who come in and rip out wheat and tares however, that make it impossible for these exchanges to be anything but toxic, and that is frustrating and once the frustration is gone, it is simply sorrowful...yet still toxic.

We have already been through the topic of original sin on the carthage thread, and your accusations are demonstrably false. The Church Fathers of the first millenium mention Hades, not purgatory, so again, your accusations against God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are demonstrably false.

I think we once counted up the number of overlapping Catholic jurisdictions in Sydney. If memory serves there is a total of 12 Catholic bishops with jurisdiction over the city, caused by the ethnic jurisdictions of Eastern Catholics.

I have no problem with overlapping jurisidictions for Catholics for two reasons:1. They are of different theological/spiritual/liturgical tradtions2. We are not the ones who claim that nothing ever changes, EVER!

What does different traditions and overlapping jurisdictions have to do with Orthodoxy never changing?

And you are right: the Vatican can't claim that nothing it teaches hasn't changed.

No, I think you misunderstood, as always. We don't change our teachings the way your church stopped believing in Purgatory and Original Sin.

Nope. You have not proven you point on this matter. Some EO posters have engaged in liguistic acrobatics, but that does not change the fact that you did believe in Purgatory and Original Sin, and now you don't. <sigh>

Oh, and by the way, the God's Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Church to which I belong, not yours.

not if it confess an adulterated creed, you're not.

And no, we never had the indulgence system upon which your purgatory depends, and so no, we never believed in purgatory. And no, we subscribed to the Scholastics argument for argument sake which has made your dogmas on Original Sin (the IC, etc.) unrecognizable to the Fathers.

Nope. You used to believe in purgatory

Still sticking to the Hindu historiography, if you repeat the mantra it makes it so, I see.

Quote

(and, btw, it's dishonest to say that it depends on indulgences, as it clearly does not)

and you believe in real original sin at one point. You souldn't lie about your own history.

I don't even lie about your history, though it hurts.

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Nope, just those adults who are "received" via being baptized, chrismated and communed into Roman Catholicism. While RCs baptize infants, they make the infant wait 7 years for Communion and 12 years for Chrismation. When a RC turns 18 and learns that Humanae Vitae dictates that they go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse, then the "illumination" becomes chaos.

I just finished reading all of Humanae Vitae and I did not see anywhere that stated people will "go to hell for using contraception and having premarital sex without any recourse." Do you have a quote?

"We affirm in this conference that the deliberate practice of contraception between husband and wife is objectively a mortal sin."

Odd. Elijammaria likes to "talk about how alike in our thinking we really are...save for a few little things that are easily resolved... " when it comes to the Vatican's talks with the Orthodox. She gets rather upset when we disagree with her on that.

Precisely the core problem of all these sorts of posts on the site (and even beyond). The Romanists say nice things about us and pretend that we're really close to union, we rebuke this error, and then they go on a contemptuous tirade against us because we dispelled their sugary fantasies.

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1. Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented. His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him. He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven. Only 24 hours in Purgatory.

2. The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system. Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

I agree with Isa on this, because there is nothing Protestant in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of certain aspects of Western ecclesiology.

Not inherently. However, the alarmist view that some people on this forum hold regarding the role of the Bishop of Rome in the Western Church smacks of fundamentalist Protestant paranoia. We don't believe the Pope replaces Christ or is even equal with Christ, and to assert that is absurd. Yet, sure enough, it has been said on here.

Clearly certain ways of phrasing our objection have been extreme and not entirely inaccurate. However, the core objection, which I think it is safe to maintain, is that papal supremacy and papal infallibility pervert and diminish what we regard as the fullness of the doctrine of the High Priesthood of Christ.

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1. Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented. His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him. He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven. Only 24 hours in Purgatory.

2. The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system. Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

You do realize that it comes down to 2 simple issues with respect to the papcy, elijahmaria.

The Orthodox will never, EVER, accept Papal supremacy or infallibility. The twisting of biblical verses, historical documents...all of it doesn't matter. That's why "ecumenical discussions" don't go anywhere. The fact is, the RCC and EOC are not one in the same, and by some measures not even close. The papacy just happens to be one of the biggest issues in the mainstream light. Any historian knows that the idea of Papal supremacy didn't exist for the first 1,000 years of Christianity and, Catholic or not, they will say that.

The idea that the Orthodox are just so blind and ignorant is why we won't accept the ludicrous idea that the Bishop of Rome is the "Vicar of Christ" is exactly why we won't be reuniting anytime soon. In Roman Catholicism, there is no room for debate on this. In Orthodoxy, there is also no room for debate on this.

As I said before...Get your petitions ready because I think there's going to be a fight.

There is no need for petitions. There is no way that all of the Bishops will sign on to union in the way you are imagining it. All that will need to happen is for the faithful Orthodox laity to remain with the faithful Orthodox Bishops and leave the masses who are joining heresy.

And yet, the doctrine of purgatory still does not depened on indulgences, it's the other way around. But you wouldn't want to bother with thinking now would you?

The system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

1. Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented. His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him. He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven. Only 24 hours in Purgatory.

2. The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system. Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

I've told you before...As long as our documents are filtered through the interpretive mind of Pope Ialmisry there is no real understanding possible because your agenda is to refute the entire papal process.

And he is quite correct.

There is no such institution as La Papatia in the Church.

It is an aberration manufactured by the Church of Rome.

It does not come from Christ and the Apostles.

It must be destroyed.

It is, as Saint Justin says, the greatest heresy the Church has had to fight.