IIC & C Mechs (and their IS originals) Revisited

Hello, again guys and welcome to the other half of the discussion I started with The Clan Invasion Omnis Revisited thread. Here we will be discussing IIC & C mechs (and some thoughts about their IS originals) as they would be affected if the logistic rules for the Clans I devised in the Clan Invasion Omnis thread were applied instead.

Here are the weapon and equipment adjustments I made, plus some additional adjustments based on feedback.

Quote:Ammo Limitations:All LRMs and SRMs (standard or streak) get one ton of ammo per weapon or less, though there are a few exceptions. ATMs get two tons of ammo per weapon or less, with front-line forces getting ER and HE ammo and second-line forces getting HE and Standard ammo. AC2/5s get one ton of ammo per weapon or less and AC10/20s GRs and HAG20s get 2 per weapon - with LBXs getting equal cluster and slug ammo. All MGs (Light Heavy and Arrays) must get by with .25t of ammo per gun or less. Plasma Cannons and Heavy/Vehicle Flamers only get one ton of ammo per weapon since they are heat focused/AI weapons. Chemical Lasers are allowed two tons of ammo per weapon or less, and HAG30s and 40s are the only weapons that have an allowance for more ammo (since they don't explode) with 3 tons for HAG30s and up to 5 for HAG40s.

Missiles:Clan front-line Omnis get all the LRM10s, 15s, and 20s because they are most efficient with Artemis, and they have Artemis by default because the direct engagement benefits fit with classic Clan battle philosophy. This means the only LRMs second-line forces get are mass quantities of LRM5s without Artemis, along with any LRM ammo other than Artemis, Artemis-V, ARAD, and Swarm ammo.

Clan front-line Omnis get all the Streak missiles (SRM and LRM). This means second-line forces get standard SRMs and all the ammo/equipment that comes with them including Artemis, but second-line designs tend to use Narcs and related ammo more as warriors have less of an issue using "less honorable" tactics to win battles.

ATMs are given to both front-line Omnis and second-line forces at the same time with the ammo notations above. When they do, they exchange out SRM and LRM systems with Artemis of similar combined weight and space if possible. ATMs also tend to be on designs after their introduction showing the general Clan preference for them, though the old LRMs with Artemis are kept in front-line stock to replace the new missiles if necessary.

If scheinlen hates MGs with a passion, I hate ALL one-shots with a passion. I pretend they don't exist. Really, if the Clans wanted one-shots they should continue to use the IS Rocket Launchers they had in service for the first twenty years of their inception, but if they want the other weapons there's enough tonnage/crits in mechs to have at least a full ton of ammo. Yeesh.

Clan Arrow IV is a second-line weapon by default as it doesn't fit in with classic Clan battle philosophy. However, second-line warriors have creatively used TAG on mechs mounting Arrow IV homing munitions to be able to engage enemies directly with frightening accuracy, and regain some honor/dignity for piloting such mechs.

Ballistics:Clan front-line Omnis get all the UAC5s, 10s, and 20s for their double damage potential. This means second-line forces get all the LBXs and UAC2s for their ability to mop up what's left or plink away from afar. However, when HAGs enter the scene, second-line forces don't get them, but they do get the rest of the UACs they have been denied as the HAGs replace most of the front-line UACs. Gauss rifles are available to both front-line and second-line forces by default.

I decided to make virtually all MGs and resulting MG arrays be shifted to the second-line forces, reflecting the Clan's preference of the non explosive Flamers and SPLs for AI work. When AP Gausses (and ER/Heavy Flamers) are developed, they are only found on Jade Falcon mechs, or mechs too light to carry anything else, and don't hit the second-line forces until around 2075.

Energy Weapons:Front-line forces get all the energy weapons except Micro Lasers (ER and Pulse), Small Heavy Lasers, all Chemical lasers, and Vehicle Flamers. This means second-line forces get these weapons by default and all other pre-invasion energy weapons. The only change is around 3067 when the second-line forces get the increasingly difficult to deal with Heavy Lasers in full force which would lead to the development of i-Heavy Lasers among second-line forces.

Equipment:All Active Probes, ECMs, CEWSs, Pods (A, B, and Coolant) AMSs (including L-AMS) and TAGs are shared among front-line Omnis and second line forces, though it depends on the circumstances in which they are used.

All the Clan construction, communication and command center equipment is by default second-line, though searchlights are available for some front-line mechs.

With all this being said, IIC mechs have construction rules unique to them, but are less complex than the Omnimech rules I presented in the thread above.

Tonnage:I try to make IIC mechs differ from their IS originals by making them have different tonnages. The tonnage difference can be anywhere from 5t to 15t higher or lower, but must be for a good reason depending on the capabilities of the original.

Engines:IIC mechs typically have standard engines unless the IS original has a Star League variant with an XL engine, then the IIC variant is allowed to have a Clan XL engine of a rating equal to or higher than the original. Some exceptions do exist, but generally IIC mechs will follow this pattern. However, any mechs that have visual changes in their design from the original (TRO3055u/3058u and Project Phoenix), then get an XL engine for applicable variants to account for the change in appearance.

FF/ES/DHSIIC mechs have FF ES and DHSs by default before 3058. Afterwards, these components become scarce and variants made after that point (especially among Nova Cats, WIE, and Ghost Bears) have some blend of standard and Clan components. Also, any mechs that have visual changes in their design must then reshuffle their ES/FF crits and quirks to account for the structural change.

Other than these rules, there are no other IIC specific rules with construction.

C mechs are even easier. Like most canon C mechs, they keep the original's "base" standard armor, internals, and engine, mounting comparable Clan weapons and equipment. But this time the "base" is IS grade only by name, not type, making the mech tournament legal and not experimental as mixtech mechs usually are classified. If you have seen my Javelin C submission under the Javelin IIC thread, that is generally what I expect from C mechs.

All right. That's it for the construction and weapon/equipment rules. Now on to the mechs that could be produced with them starting with the Jenner IIC.

The original JR7-D Jenner is 35t with a 7/11/5 movement profile, 4t of armor, and 6t available for weapons and equipment. The original IIC is also 35t with a 9/14/7 movement profile, an XL engine, 3.5t of FF, and 7t available for weapons and equipment. My take on the Jenner IIC has a slightly better movement profile than the JR7, and the same available tonnage of the original IIC, with roughly equal durability for a fraction more C-bills than the JR7 - even with an XL engine - thanks to reducing the tonnage to 25t. Also, since the mech has legs for torsos, all side torso and leg crits have been filled leaving only the arms head and CT for weapons and equipment. This also means the Jenner IIC can't torso twist, and has little to no arms due to the design, but has a bonus of a low profile compared to other mechs. The original Jenner has the same quirks as well, without the crits being filled, so it's not like the IIC version gets special treatment.

The first variant keeps the all SRM theme of the original IIC but increases the number of missiles by 50% with no heat issues. It is important to note that the mech only has 4 complete salvos and one shot before it is forced to retire (or die attempting DFAs or charges) so it has to make them count. This can be aided with the help from a later variant.

The second variant switches the SRMs with LRMs and two ERMLs as backup, making this version more pesky and lasting than the first. Like the first variant, this variant can be aided with the help of the next variant.

The final Nova Cat variant changes its structural appearance in order to gain the ability to torso twist without sacrificing the other quirks. No performance changes were made, but the DHSs were downgraded to SHSs because DHSs are not necessary with its loadout of 4ATMs with HE ammo, and they are easily replaceable with IS versions if necessary.

What do you guys think? Does this seem like a good idea? Do the changes make the Jenner IIC better? Yes, all the ammo is in the mech's CT, but with no more than 6 shots for all variants, this rarely should be an issue.

All right guys. I decided to move on to the Hunchback IIC. Any comments you graciously provide would absolutely make my day.

The original HBK-4G Hunchback is 50t with a 4/6/0 movement profile, 10t of armor, and is well known for its distinctive armament. The original IIC is also 50t with a 4/6/4 movement profile, an XL engine, ES, 6t of standard armor, and an impressive 30t available for weapons and equipment. My take on the Hunchback IIC increases the tonnage by 5t in order to have a standard engine for decreased cost and increased survivability while keeping the jump jets, its status as a medium mech, and as much of the original IIC's available tonnage as possible. I changed the armor type to FF for increased protection and thankfully, I was able to keep the dual AC20 and ERML theme, but with LBX20s instead at the cost of two DHSs. I only had enough for one ton of ammo for each gun, so I made them slugs by default. No quirks are needed for this mech.

EDIT: I'm considering about reducing the armor by a ton to classic Hunchback IIC levels in order to carry a ton of Cluster ammo, shifting the placement of the DHSs to the arms, but I need more input before I can make this decision.

The next variant takes the idea of the original IIC 3 but carries quad ATM9s instead, each with one ton of HE ammo to play with. Backing these missiles up is a single MPL for smaller faster targets and the rest of the space is filled by heatsinks allowing for a modest heat curve.

Keeping the pattern of weapon exchanges for the time period, the third variant returns the IIC back to its familiar twin UAC20s. This time they are given two tons of ammo each and are backed up by a single HML in the CT. In order to make these changes, the armor level is reduced by a ton to the original IIC's armor level (96 points).

The fourth variant is a direct translation of the original IIC 4, except it has 6t of FF instead of 7t of standard armor, no XL engine and one less heatsink. Since Rotary ACs were introduced to the Clans by the Diamond Sharks, they are allowed on both front line and second-line mechs - especially during the final years of the Jihad.

IIC 1, 3, and 4 don't have enough ammo to last long at all and has very week back up weapon(s) when the ammo does run out.

As for IIC 2 that is just not a Hunchback. A hunchback should have one or two very powerful high punch weapons.

I have always likes replacing the standard Hunchback's AC20 with a Gauss Rifle and a good amount of ammo to keep it going for a good long time.

Then I guess you wouldn't like any of the canon Hunchback IIC's variants, because all of them except the original IIC 2 variant are represented here, just tweaked a little to reflect the tonnage weapon and engine changes. I didn't try to make the Hunchback IIC a mech to take seriously like its IS counterpart, because like the wiki states, "the assignment of a Hunchback IIC was essentially a death sentence. Warriors given this machine were not expected to survive their next battle." Having pathetic ammo levels with weak backup weapons, poor armor and a slow speed for a 50-55t mech all seemed to reflect this intention. The primary thing I did was save the Clans from throwing away a perfectly good 200XL engine along with the warrior. Then with the weapon changes, you don't throw away perfectly good UAC20s until later when there are extras available. LBX20s are the only weapons left in the Succession Wars era to keep the Hunchback IIC look and power, with the possibility of having cluster ammo if I reduce the armor to historic Hunchback IIC levels.

However, if I did want to make the Hunchback IIC a mech to take seriously, I would use your version.

Next in line is the Urbanmech series, starting with the original Urbanmech.

I wanted to reverse the order of the R60 and R60L in which they came out, as it makes a bit more sense to start with a larger AC/SL and then upgrade to a longer range, more ammo per ton AC. With the R60L, the most obvious thing that needed to be changed was that extra 11th heat sink. I quickly changed it to more armor and shuffled the heatsinks into the torsos to fill that can with more stuff.

To take the Urbanmech to the next level, I wanted to see what a Royal Urbanmech would look like. Taking advantage of all the space available in that can, I filled it with weapons and equipment the SL had short of the XL engine. I think I did a good job and it's only ~700k C-bills more.

Following the Royal variant, the equivalent to the R60 I made tries to replicate the Royal variant with introductory weapons and equipment, and does a good enough job to last all the way into the Succession Wars.

As for the Clans, they took the idea of the R60L, combined it with the hypothetical Royal variant, and upgraded the mech to 35t to create an Urbie with more armor, a punch at range, and able to use the base DHSs effectively.

That's true. Both the Hunchback IIC and Urbanmech IIC in the eyes of the Clans are basically walking coffins. But then, giving the Clan's tin can some dignity before death might turn some heads, which is what I'm hoping for. I mean no one expects an Urbie to have the electronics necessary to detect you while it stays hidden, jam your C3 Streaks and Artemis, and snipe targets at 30 hexes (with extreme range rules) with its "backup" weapon and still hit you with a sledgehammer up close. For a garrison city mech, it now is more powerful even if it is as slow as the original.

However, I have experimented with keeping the original Urbie IIC's speed and jumping, though that meant a reduction in the electronics and a ton of armor. If I want to keep the same theme of the Hunchback IIC, this would be the way to go, as you don't need to throw away good electronics along with the mech.

I see what you mean and I agree. But then that begs the question, why does it even exist, along with any other mechs/equipment that were improved upon but don't fit with Clan views about warfare? They could have been scrapped and never introduced just as easily. But since they are canon, I decided to explain these discrepancies by making Omnimechs embody everything the Clans stand for (direct engagements, all the best and most appropriate technology, and limited ammo) and give everything else to the second-line forces. This creates a dichotomy of battle philosophies between front-line forces and second-line forces, where front-line forces (especially Crusaders) exhibit classic Clan behavior, and second-line forces (or the Warden Wolves) exhibit a mix of Clan and IS behaviors. It is among these forces who have city garrison and defense duties that mechs like the Hunchback IIC and Urbanmech IIC have a chance to shine.

At any rate, to show the general lack of reverence (but maybe not preference) for the mech, I will go with the faster, electronically void designs.

Some of the Clans have come to see that their original style of fighting only works against a foe for just so long, then the other side gets the hints and sees the limitations and exploits them. Supply lines, disdain of wanting to fight in cities etc...all work to hurt the Clans and their old style of fighting.

So the use of mechs like the Urbanmech and Wyern and Firestarter etc...are things they would have for crowd control as well as defensive units, that if used and win show how un-honorable the other side is etc...

Quote:I don't think that the Clans would really use a Urbanmech of any design do to their distaste for city fighting since they view it as unhonorable to hide within cities like cowardly Enter Spherers.

I don't remember that. Can anyone cite where Clanners don't think city fighting in honorable? I can see where a dense urban area could cause some irritations for MechWarriors engaged in full-on Zellbrigen (Zell is situational ethics at its best, so it is not always in full force.). Therefore, an urban setting might not be a Clan Warrior's first choice of location. On the other hand I remember Phelen (Kell) Wolf fighting in the Bloodname tournament against an Elemental. That was an urban setting. If Clans find it dishonorable you wouldn't see that in one of their most important trials.

Quote:I don't think that the Clans would really use a Urbanmech of any design do to their distaste for city fighting since they view it as unhonorable to hide within cities like cowardly Enter Spherers.

I don't remember that. Can anyone cite where Clanners don't think city fighting in honorable? I can see where a dense urban area could cause some irritations for MechWarriors engaged in full-on Zellbrigen (Zell is situational ethics at its best, so it is not always in full force.). Therefore, an urban setting might not be a Clan Warrior's first choice of location. On the other hand I remember Phelen (Kell) Wolf fighting in the Bloodname tournament against an Elemental. That was an urban setting. If Clans find it dishonorable you wouldn't see that in one of their most important trials.

KK

I think I remember that from one the BT novels which ones I have no idea. I have read way to many of them to remember what was said in which ones . I just remember during the invasion of the enter sphere a clan character talking about having to enter cities to fight because the enter spherers would retreat into cities and they would have to go in to fight them. The character said that such tactics where dishonorable for a true warrior.

The Urbanmech IICs where built in 2849 long before the clans invaded the enter sphere where Kell Phelen's battle was long after the clans have been fighting the enter sphere for a long time. Of course tactics have evolved a great deal between when the IICs battlemechs where being designed and Kell Phelen had his battle for his Bloodname.

Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!

I do remember it. The point of Clan trials and duels is to limit damage to civilian populations and valuable resources (like factories), so they take their fights out into the wilderness. Early in the Clan invasion, the Clans were disgusted at Spheroids' willingness to fight in - and thus maul - the very cities they were supposedly defending.

If I was motivated enough, I'd look for references in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy and Warriors of Kerensky Sourcebook, but I'm lazy.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

It is mentioned in I think Blood Legacy they make mention of the fights in which one of the cities is mauled and how IF IT had been the Bears or Jaguars there would have been more damage done, I believe this is right before Phalen beats the crap out of Vlad.

Things is the Clans WOULD fight in a city, they did plenty of that prior to their so called rise to power, they used their improved combat formations to clean house on the Pentagon Worlds and seemed based on what we have seen mention in several books more then willing and able to go to the same levels as their opponents and sometimes go there first. They had no issues with blasting a whole city that was in rebellion...so their hypocritical nature doesn't always hold true to form on all fronts or clans.

Quote:I do remember it. The point of Clan trials and duels is to limit damage to civilian populations and valuable resources (like factories), so they take their fights out into the wilderness. Early in the Clan invasion, the Clans were disgusted at Spheroids' willingness to fight in - and thus maul - the very cities they were supposedly defending.

Quote:Clans WOULD fight in a city, they did plenty

So, its not a dishonorable act for Clan MechWarriors to fight in a city. However, because their origin is the Star League, the ideals of the Ares Conventions means limiting colateral damage. And because their experience is conserving for survival, one does not undo decades of construction unless absolutely necessary. Ritualized combat protected both of these social mores. They would look down their noses at hiding from open, one-on-one combat in an urban setting. Which is getting to the point. The IS troops retreated into indirect gorilla-urban warfare. The Clans would see retreat as dishonor and indirect combat as dishonor on the part of the IS. The dishonor was not due to the urban setting; it was due to the actions that placed the combat there. Morally, they were appaled by this IS behavior because it violated their beliefs and values regarding combat, non-combatants, and resources. But as far as far as individual or Clan honor goes, its like Karagin said.

Quote:So, its not a dishonorable act for Clan MechWarriors to fight in a city. However, because their origin is the Star League, the ideals of the Ares Conventions means limiting colateral damage.

Nope, Ares Conventions are completely uninvolved with Clan "honor" and rules of engagement.

The Star League suspended the Ares Conventions in 2578 at the dawn of the Reunification War and never un-suspended it (see Star League Sourcebook). The Star League subsequently fought without respect to the Ares Conventions in the Reunification War, Hidden Wars, Periphery Rebellion, and Star League Civil War. The Clans were built from SLDF personnel who had liberated the **** out of the Terran Hegemony (1 billion civilians dead from 'Mechs, nukes, and WarShips), then fought the Exodus Civil War (4 out of 6 million SLDF exiles dead from 'Mechs, nukes, bioweapons and WarShips), and had only heard of the Ares Conventions in history books. (Coincidentally, the Houses formally renounced the Ares Conventions in 2787 at the start of the 1st Succession War, but that was a formality - they hadn't used the Conventions in 200 years, either.)

Quoting pg42, Warriors of Kerensky:

"The honor road and zellbrigen - the rules of combat that epitomize it - can be traced to the death of Nicholas [Kerensky's] brother Andery during the liberation of Eden [after the formation of the Clans]. In those days, the Clans fought with tactics similar to those of the SLDF. They fought with total war, using any and every weapon at their disposal."

The death of Andery, where he was outnumbered horribly in an assassination-ambush, inspired Nicholas Kerensky to create the honor road and zellbrigen. (pg42 WoK)

Quote: They would look down their noses at hiding from open, one-on-one combat in an urban setting.

Clans have no problem using terrain and cover in a fairly issued challenge. If a warrior is so clueless that he can be ambushed in a fairly issued trial of combat, that's his fault. The problem with urban combat is, as you noted, destruction of resources.

Quote: The Clans would see retreat as dishonor and indirect combat as dishonor on the part of the IS.

If the opponent is truly leaving the battlefield and has no intention of fighting again, yes, the Clans see that as dishonorable. However, making a tactical movement into cover while still being willing to fight is quite acceptable.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

To be honest, I almost didn't change this series as most of the designs naturally fit within the construction scheme I devised. So why am I reworking this series? Two reasons. First, a royal variant of the Locust exists with an XL engine so the IIC version is allowed to have one if it wants. Yes, I know. Then it makes the Jenner IIC seem like it got special treatment to get an XL engine anyway. However, the Jenner IIC is one of the exceptions. Second, I wanted to make the Locust IIC take over the Icestorm's job (thus removing it from existance) as they have the same tonnage, similar focus on speed, and were both introduced before ERSLs and ERMLs were introduced.

It is important to note that Locust IIC variants before 3060 are unable to torso twist for the same reason the Jenner IIC variants can't, and all variants have little/no arms due to the design. However, Jenners and Locusts may be small, but they aren't squat like Urbanmechs, Adders or Kit-Foxes, so I can't give them low profile bonuses. I might just leave them with the two negative traits - making sure the mechs remain second-line material.

Anyway, without further ado, I present the purely tactical Locust IIC, with a TAG laser, six Flamers, and 12/18/0 movement.

Following the introduction of ERSLs and ERMLs, the second variant gains the laser punch of the original Locust IIC, except now it's much faster at the expense of two less lasers. The armor level and locations are the same as before.

The fourth variant (like my Jenner IIC 4) shuffles the crits around slightly with the structural change, and has single heat sinks due to the reduced heat demands of Micro pulse lasers, but otherwise has no armor or performance changes other than the ability to torso twist.

Lastly, the replacement for the IIC 8 takes the idea of the IIC 3 (old or new) and mounts a fancy Plasma Cannon as the main gun. This is backed up with two ERSLs in the arms. Like the variant before, this has one ton less armor.

Clanners don't think city fighting in honorable?,Best tactic in a clanners mind is not to fight there, level the place as you go... and advance. that way the enemy has no place to hide. They have been known to do just that.

It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!

I know there are more IIC mechs than what I've posted so far, but with the new Mechwarrior games coming up, it has come to my attention that I will soon no longer have time to revisit canon mechs and make designs. So I hope the mechs and guidelines I posted so far gives the rest of you inspiration to make modifications of your own. I will wrap up the Clan mech thread because I have the rest of the designs almost finished. I will post them there once they are complete. As for this thread, I might post mechs again later if I have the time.