1) Pretty high (Holiday, Iggy, Thaddeus Young)
2) Some are quite young, others are veterans but not old yet (Iggy)
3) Decent
4) We will have the 16th pick in the 2011 draft
5) We are hoping Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner improve
6) Yes, we have a strong bench
7) Elton Brand, Francisco Elson, and Andres Nocioni will be gone soon, and Iggy is really the only big contract
8) Depends on how close we are to a championship.

Pacers in 2011:

1) Pretty high (George, Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough)
2) Mostly young, with the exception of Granger
3) A decent amount, but we're about to throw a shit ton of money at Roy Hibbert next year
4) We're about to trade Kawhi Leanord for George Hill
5) We're hoping George and Hibbert develop
6) We'd like to think so
7) Only Granger's
8) Depends on how close we are to a championship

I know I'm writing with a bias, but it's hard with 20/20 hindsight. Still, the two situations look eerily similar given your formula. Are the Pacers succeeding because George/Hibbert's development out-paced Holiday/Turner? Or was it because Granger was injured and didn't shoot them out of games? Or was it that George Hill brought the Spurs mentality with him?

Honestly I have no idea. But I don't think there is a way to assess if we're at a ceiling or progressing towards the future. The Raptors have young pieces in Val and Jonas, Lowry has room to improve, as does Fields and to some extent DeRozan. I'd say we have some potential.

Cap killing contracts don't have to be big or even numerous.

When projecting the talent of your key pieces, what is their skill set? Are they complete players? Do they lack a specific area? I look at Paul George as a complete player and that was evident after year 2.

The Pacers were going to throw a shit load of money at Hibbert but they managed to lock up a borderline All-Star at PF beforehand.

George and Hibbert were much more sure bets than Holiday and Turner. Turner has been a bad #2 pick since almost day 1. Holiday was solid.

The Pacers also had success with Granger. In fact, they had a higher winning percentage with him in '11-12. They lost in 6 games to Miami in '11-12 in the 2nd round vs. 7 games in the Conference Finals this year.

I think the difference in Indy and Philly was Indy had more proven talent and younger talent with more upside.

Without considering trades, when looking at the current roster (any current roster) I think one can project. You list the Raptors players but outside of JV, all those players are in the league for 3+ seasons and are 24+ by the start of next season. Looking for players like DeRozan, Lowry, and Gay to somehow become more than what they already are is one of the key ingredients for determining this group has a ceiling. Lowry and Gay are going in to their 8th seasons while DD will be 5th.

When projecting the talent of your key pieces, what is their skill set? Are they complete players? Do they lack a specific area? I look at Paul George as a complete player and that was evident after year 2.

The Pacers were going to throw a shit load of money at Hibbert but they managed to lock up a borderline All-Star at PF beforehand.

George and Hibbert were much more sure bets than Holiday and Turner. Turner has been a bad #2 pick since almost day 1. Holiday was solid.

The Pacers also had success with Granger. In fact, they had a higher winning percentage with him in '11-12. They lost in 6 games to Miami in '11-12 in the 2nd round vs. 7 games in the Conference Finals this year.

I think the difference in Indy and Philly was Indy had more proven talent and younger talent with more upside.

Without considering trades, when looking at the current roster (any current roster) I think one can project. You list the Raptors players but outside of JV, all those players are in the league for 3+ seasons and are 24+ by the start of next season. Looking for players like DeRozan, Lowry, and Gay to somehow become more than what they already are is one of the key ingredients for determining this group has a ceiling. Lowry and Gay are going in to their 8th seasons while DD will be 5th.

West was on a miniscule 2 year deal (I believe it was $15M over 2 years), hardly what I'd call locked up.

But again, hindsight is 20/20. Turner had only been in the league a year, and Hibbert hadn't shown that he'd "figured it out" yet on offense or defense (though the potential was there). I personally feel that Indiana did have better young talent, but I'm suspicious that that's because of what I know now. I remember being envious of both teams in 2011 because they were progressing while our Raptors were (are?) still on a treadmill.

I think the point you’re missing is that for a team like the Raptors, who haven’t made the playoffs in several seasons, making the playoffs would be significant progression. Nobody is suggesting simply making the playoffs is the end goal, but rather an initial goal, to be used as a stepping stone for greater, sustainable success.

Making the playoffs as the 8th seed doesn’t automatically mean that the team is unable to become anything better. Only poorly managed teams become the dreaded “treadmill” team that is too bad to improve and too good to rebuild. I hate when people equate a non-playoff team finally making the playoffs to perennial “treadmill” teams like Atlanta and Milwaukee, simply because they’ve fought and improved to make the playoffs in the first place. I don’t think TL or MU are the type of guys to rest of their laurels of simply making the playoffs... they’d only use that as motivation to continue to improve.

you just basically just flip flopped on your own point which is fine, except you did it nearly instantaneously. you said making the playoffs (even as an 8th seed this season) is a GOOD thing and counts as 'significant progression', but then you say with this current team the max ceiling is ONLY the 1st round unless we trade/blow things up by having everyone on the team as a potential trade asset minus JV and DD apparently. so wheres the 'good part' of making it as 8th seed fodder then?

you just basically just flip flopped on your own point which is fine, except you did it nearly instantaneously. you said making the playoffs (even as an 8th seed this season) is a GOOD thing and counts as 'significant progression', but then you say with this current team the max ceiling is ONLY the 1st round unless we trade/blow things up by having everyone on the team as a potential trade asset minus JV and DD apparently. so wheres the 'good part' of making it as 8th seed fodder then?

He didn't flip flop on his point at all. He said making the playoffs even as an 8th seed is progression.

But, as a stepping stone, not your top(ceiling) goal to be the 8th seed.

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

West was on a miniscule 2 year deal (I believe it was $15M over 2 years), hardly what I'd call locked up.

But again, hindsight is 20/20. Turner had only been in the league a year, and Hibbert hadn't shown that he'd "figured it out" yet on offense or defense (though the potential was there). I personally feel that Indiana did have better young talent, but I'm suspicious that that's because of what I know now. I remember being envious of both teams in 2011 because they were progressing while our Raptors were (are?) still on a treadmill.

2 years and $20M for West. It was locked up because if it failed, they still had options. If it was a success they had early Bird Rights.

Hindsight is 20/20. I agree. Turner had holes in his game... still does.

Looking back even Philly must have realized as they went all-in on Bynum in a dare-to-be-great move that failed epically.

He didn't flip flop on his point at all. He said making the playoffs even as an 8th seed is progression.

But, as a stepping stone, not your top(ceiling) goal to be the 8th seed.

i feel like you didn't even read this thread at all.

making the 8th seed is not 'significant progression' ESPECIALLY if the current raptors team is recognized as having that 8th seed spot as the ceiling (which if you actually read the previous posts, he agreed that yes, a 1st round exit is the ceiling for this current team)

unless you consider 'progression' as the owners finally realizing "oh yah we basically suck horribly, lets trade away the majority of the team, keep a few potentials like JV and move on!" then sure, lets progress away!

making the 8th seed is not 'significant progression' ESPECIALLY if the current raptors team is recognized as having that 8th seed spot as the ceiling (which if you actually read the previous posts, he agreed that yes, a 1st round exit is the ceiling for this current team)

unless you consider 'progression' as the owners finally realizing "oh yah we basically suck horribly, lets trade away the majority of the team, keep a few potentials like JV and move on!" then sure, lets progress away!

I feel like..you need to shutup with that. It's an internet forum. I don't know you. Nobody cares what you feel like. But, I'll play along. I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and you have your conceptions about the team and refuse to open up to anybody else's point of view.

I was just explaining what he was saying. I don't understand why you're lashing out at me..

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

I feel like..you need to shutup with that. It's an internet forum. I don't know you. Nobody cares what you feel like. But, I'll play along. I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and you have your conceptions about the team and refuse to open up to anybody else's point of view.

I was just explaining what he was saying. I don't understand why you're lashing out at me..

I thought his name was rocket ship related, but I could be swayed to thinking he just likes to vent

Right, Brandon and when do we start the book burnings then? Why don't we start with everything written prior to 1900 and then work our way forward to 2010? Let's get rid of all this history getting in the way.

Right, Brandon and when do we start the book burnings then? Why don't we start with everything written prior to 1900 and then work our way forward to 2010? Let's get rid of all this history getting in the way.

HAHAHA. That's the first time I've seen you be sarcastic. Awesome timing, too.

So...when you gonna close that Bargnani thread and my legacy of being the "creator" of the biggest and most popular thread in RR history can be etched forever in internet history?

If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

Making the playoffs as the 8th seed doesn’t automatically mean that the team is unable to become anything better.

Yes, but then we're back to the old saw about "well, how do you become better." And your choices remain the same:

1. Drafting
2. Trading
3. Free agency
4. Internal development

The problem with the Raptors is that they don't have a wealth of recent draft picks acquired from other teams (the Bargnani trade basically got us back to "even" after Colangelo decided that spending picks like water was the way to go), so drafting as a way to add complimentary pieces is a limited strategy and much more luck-dependent than it could be since as built our team is stuck in the mediocre middle.

As constructed, trading doesn't work because the parts of the team that are supposedly key to playoff success are the only trade assets we have; there is no superfluous good player that we could potentially trade away to improve (like, for example, how Golden State has David Lee, who is a fine player but it has been shown that Golden State probably doesn't need him to succeed), and if we need to break the ceiling anyway it'll take an All-Star level player and they ain't cheap.

Free agency doesn't work because our core is too expensive and will just get pricier (if we re-sign Kyle, he's likely going to cost a couple million more than he currently does at least) so we have no cap room to add people.

So we're back to hoping that our guys just get better than they were, and we extend the "can Demar get a three-point shot" thread a little further and talk about Gary Payton and Rip Hamilton (never mind that it's far more likely an option that DeMar improves by learning to defend properly under Casey's tutelage than him finally finding that three-point shot he's been trying to find for three seasons now), because any serious move to change the team in any other way amounts to blowing it up. Internal development is the least likely way to get above the "ceiling" and is the strategically weakest form of stepping stone, but unless you want to blow this team up, it's the only way forward.

That's what Colangelo decided was best, and it's why he was fired. With good reason.