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Tim, I'm not sure where this tradition you mention is from. It's certainly not from traditional Japan. People often cross trained there. In fact, cross training and challenge matches (not duels) were so common that many dojo in the pre-modern era required oaths to not engage in inter-art matches. Within Aikido, training in multiple arts was closer to the norm during Ueshiba's lifetime than not. Look at Tomiki, Mochizuki, Inaba, Nishio, Ueshiba Kisshomaru and others. Most of Ueshiba's students in the pre-War period were accomplished martial artists before they started training, and many continued training in other arts after beginning Aikido.

Training in other arts and styles gives you new perspective on what you are doing. It doesn't negate it, it supplements your understanding so you can learn more deeply.

It is true that in the past there was fierce competition between schools (dojos) about who had the best technique. That, however, is something different than practising in different dojos at the same time. That was disapproved. You would expose your secrets to the 'enemy'. Do you see a Russian general also work as general in the American army? He might defect, but that is still not 'at the same time'. Neither army will allow it....high treason, he would be executed....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

It is true that in the past there was fierce competition between schools (dojos) about who had the best technique. That, however, is something different than practising in different dojos at the same time. That was disapproved. You would expose your secrets to the 'enemy'. Do you see a Russian general also work as general in the American army? He might defect, but that is still not 'at the same time'. Neither army will allow it....high treason, he would be executed....

It is true that in the past there was fierce competition between schools (dojos) about who had the best technique. That, however, is something different than practising in different dojos at the same time. That was disapproved. You would expose your secrets to the 'enemy'. Do you see a Russian general also work as general in the American army? He might defect, but that is still not 'at the same time'. Neither army will allow it....high treason, he would be executed....

It is probably not that teachers didn't want their secrets piflered to other schools and that a traditional social structure arose whereby you had to have one teacher. And just more that there are layers of social minutia that must be attended to. It is important in Japanese martial culture to be clear on what group you are a part of and what your role in that group is. If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

It is true that in the past there was fierce competition between schools (dojos) about who had the best technique. That, however, is something different than practising in different dojos at the same time. That was disapproved. You would expose your secrets to the 'enemy'. Do you see a Russian general also work as general in the American army? He might defect, but that is still not 'at the same time'. Neither army will allow it....high treason, he would be executed....

It is important in Japanese martial culture to be clear on what group you are a part of and what your role in that group is. If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

Well put. As I see it there is a strong relation with lineage and culture. In Japan relationships are everything. You are always positioned in relation to.

@Katherine.
Please read this in a positive context, I am not attacking you, or anybody else.
Aikido, in my perspective, is a martial art. You practise with partners to develop yourself and others (of you 'clan'). When you globalise this to include all different flavors of Aikido and visit just any teacher you can, where does that leave you in relation to the above? What is your position when administrative bodies collide (very similar to the teachers example), when you have different opinions about teaching? Or do you 'just' practise the technical aspect of Aikido and cannot be bothered with the bigger picture?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

only problem if you all bump into each other at a bar, where the subject of who pickup the tab, which more than likely, the two teachers will make you pick up the tab. so don't pick up the tab. just sneak out the back door.

@Katherine.
Please read this in a positive context, I am not attacking you, or anybody else.
Aikido, in my perspective, is a martial art. You practise with partners to develop yourself and others (of you 'clan'). When you globalise this to include all different flavors of Aikido and visit just any teacher you can, where does that leave you in relation to the above?

I don't think I ever suggested "visiting just any teacher you can."

As I said, my own teacher encourages students to attend "outside" seminars. But he has -- and shares -- very clear opinions about which "outside" teachers are and are not worthwhile, and why.

I would like to do more, but I would like to do more at my home dojo, too. I can see how going to a bunch of different schools might not help me much right now due to my present lack of consistent training.
Experiencing Tomiki Ryu was a great experience (several years later, I still like to practice some of the warm-ups on my own) and while I was barely there, experiencing a touch of an internal approach at Ledyard Sensei's dojo was also a great experience. These experiences were useful both for the comparison of technical differences and areas of focus, but also simply the chance to experience people who have been wired to move a little differently.
Coincidentally I'm letting a friend teach a Wing Chun class in my garage soon and am looking forward to seeing how it might apply. I don't figure it will necessarily add to my depth of Aikido, but I think it will give me a little more breadth of consideration for how different people might move.

So, you know people who have been charged with treason and executed for training outside their style?

I did not realise you meant it that literal in which case: no! off course not!

But I do know that students have been kicked out of the dojo of my teacher because their behaviour was not agreed upon by him (including cross training). I myself have refused access because of the person's reputation that preceded him.

Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote:

I don't think I ever suggested "visiting just any teacher you can."

I never wanted to suggest that. I took a more global/general approach.

But he has -- and shares -- very clear opinions about which "outside" teachers are and are not worthwhile, and why. [/quote]
This is exactly what I do - for students not too advanced.

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 03-19-2015 at 05:24 AM.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

Tim, how long do you think a student should train before they can benefit from training outside your style? Or, rather than a length of time, what should the student's proficiency be in their base style before going "outside"?

That depends on the student. At the very least there should be some understanding/realization that different Aikido styles exist and that they have different perspectives. The student should be proficient enough in the style they practise in. This gives them some frame of reference to observe differences and (more important) commonalities when attending different styles. This also applies to the teachers, regardless of style. You must know the intention/didactic of the teacher to be able to understand him.

When you do not do this, your practise is rather arbitrary...can still be good fun and all...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

It is important in Japanese martial culture to be clear on what group you are a part of and what your role in that group is. If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

Hello Cliff,

Very interesting comments, with which I largely agree. Something like this actually happened to me once and caused much bewilderment among the non-Japanese observers of the episode. I was at a seminar in Matsuyama given by Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I went with members of my dojo, including the dojo-cho, whom I will called Teacher A. After the seminar there was a formal dinner and I was summoned by my teacher, Teacher A, who was quite agitated. The place settings around the table meant that he would be seated opposite another teacher, Teacher B, with whom he was having a serious dispute. (Of course, I knew Teacher B, but was never able to train with him--for obvious reasons.) My teacher ordered me to attend the dinner in his place and when Doshu found out, he smiled, with some regret, but accepted the situation.

The day after, I was at the ferry port with my teacher and members of my group, when I saw Teacher B, with members of his group--including some foreign participants whom I knew. I went over to talk to them and also talked to Teacher B. My group obviously knew what was happening and could not really object, so they devoted all their efforts to not seeing what I was doing.

The irony is that my two dojo instructor colleagues were long-term students of Teacher B, whom I met several times and with whom I developed a friendly relationship. The result was that I got so sick of this nonsense that I broke with Teacher A and became independent. So our students are encouraged to go to other dojos and we also invite other teachers as guest instructors. There are no rules about this, but the students who do go to other dojos tend be be yudansha,

So, you know people who have been charged with treason and executed for training outside their style?

If not executed, then promotions severely delayed in punishment! Teacher A studied with Teacher X. Teacher B studied with Teacher A and was promoted rapidly (and appropriately) for many years. Then Teacher B decided to study with Teacher X directly, at which point all B's peers started to bypass him/her and get promoted ahead.

One of the greatest experiences I've ever had was attending the 2005 AikiExpo. Besides actually meeting Jun and training with him for a few minutes, I had the privilege of training with some luminaries of the martial arts world. Those of us who attended not only got to experience other styles of aikido, but we also got to experience other arts such as Systema and Daito-Ryu. It was such an informative experience that I've attended other style seminars on occasion since, as well as attending the programs of other arts. Each and every time I've brought something home with me that has informed or helped my aikido is some way.

By far the majority of my mat time is spent in our own dojo or organization, but the occasional visit to a different style or even art can prove valuable and productive. I think it worthwhile to at least peer over the top of your box and look outside at the bigger world.

It may just be the very challenging week I'm having, but I can't see "promotions severely delayed" as anything to be compared to "executions". In fact, if you're being "punished" by having your "promotion seriously delayed", guess what? You're better off without it.

It may just be the very challenging week I'm having, but I can't see "promotions severely delayed" as anything to be compared to "executions". In fact, if you're being "punished" by having your "promotion seriously delayed", guess what? You're better off without it.

It is important in Japanese martial culture to be clear on what group you are a part of and what your role in that group is. If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

I really think for all practical purposes that "Japanese martial culture" is dead and long gone. And anyone subscribing to it is buying into hierarchical silliness and is akin to those historical reenactors who take themselves and what they do way too seriously.

I've had Japanese teachers who acted like absolute babies, and total suck-ups around their own teacher. And I've seen their teachers—who were Japanese—be troubled in a way that they publicly expressed dissatisfaction with that kind of behavior. I've seen very strange, manipulative behavior coming from mid-level Japanese teachers towards their Shihan as well as their own local organizations—jockeying for some kind of position of power and influence.

Look at someone like Nishio—admittedly more of one of the old guard and a traditional Japanese gentleman, and how many teachers he had. And if you follow the branches closer into the tree, his teachers all had many teachers, including some of the same teachers.

Peter's example was a good one. It's not up to him or anyone else to be overly concerned with the behavior of their teachers. And if the behavior shows itself to be poor, then we either condone and support it, or we move on, as Peter did.

I've been around way too many good-spirited people in martial arts who have passion and openly want to share and continue learning on their journey. Ultimately, they are eternal students. And even teaching—in its truest form—is just another level of being a student.

Martial arts, by their very definition, evolve and progress. If we're doing the same thing we were doing last year, or fifty years ago, we're doing it wrong.

I think a lot of this boils down to: How do we define our relationships? On some archaic model or code? Or something fresh, alive, and vibrant?

Look at someone like Nishio—admittedly more of one of the old guard and a traditional Japanese gentleman, and how many teachers he had. And if you follow the branches closer into the tree, his teachers all had many teachers, including some of the same teachers.

Thanks for the link to the Nishio article, Dan. There is a very revealing comment in there:

Aikido training at hombu (headquarters) was not conducted by O Sensei, but by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei.

It was a year and a half after starting Aikido at hombu before Nishio would see the famed Morihei Ueshiba, O Sensei, for the first time.

This further confirms what Stanley Pranin and others have written. So Nishio had a lot more actual mat time with the non-aikido teachers mentioned than with O-Sensei!

I got to spend the weekend training in something completely outside any of the things I regularly train in this weekend. The biggest thing I took away from the training was just how much there is beyond the stuff I regularly study. It gave me some great perspective on other options and other ways of looking at things, as well as ideas for how to improve my own regular practice, ideas that would never have occurred to me otherwise. I wrote this blog post about it.

It is important in Japanese martial culture to be clear on what group you are a part of and what your role in that group is. If you are training with two teachers, and the three of you bump into each other in town, how are the two teachers supposed to treat you and each other, in the context of you being there?

I understand the concern at the complexity, and leaving before the bar tab is brought to the table is a reasonable option, but I am not sure that means that one can't or shouldn't train in multiple arts -- if their skill level in their first art is strong enough. It is best to wait until one has full proficiency in one art to then start another, but in the current day, it is often the case that certificates of completion take an extremely long time to acquire and have a variety of political and social pitfalls associated with them, that a broader view might be beneficial.

Pre Meiji period, people would often get certification of a ryu's technical curriculum (inka/menkyo/menkajo/etc) in 6 to 8 years. At that point a person could go off on musha shugyo, move somewhere and open their own dojo, or possibly become an assistant instructor at their current dojo.

Especially in Edo, a number of people who reached a high level of skill cross trained a great deal, studying (usually serially) a number of arts. The lineage of styles like Shindo Yoshin-ryu come to mind, where there seemed to be a bit of synthesis even in the early Meiji era (in a good way).

In rural dojo, someone might not have options to go elsewhere, and spend a lifetime training with the same group. The group may not just be a dojo, but might be the village itself, in the case of Maniwa Nen-ryu -- cf. Ellis' book Old School, especially the expanded second edition.

Nowadays, it takes six to eight years to get a shodan in Aikido. A person may have trouble cross training in other dojo that all report back to the same hombu in Japan -- ASU vs USAF vs others. So, people get stuck for a very long time in a beginner's mindset. This can be useful, or limiting.

So, I personally think Cliff's statement is more about life as it often is today, than life as it once was.

Another good example is the amount of cross training Takeda Sokaku performed -- first sumo and jujutsu under his father (if Ellis' thesis is correct), inspiration from meeting figures like Tanomo Saigo, training in Ona-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu as well as training in Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu, spear training, etc.

If you look at historical records of higher level samurai (Ikeda Chohatsu is one example), you can see listed certifications (menkyo) in many ryuha. They trained in multiple arts as part of domain schools, and those schools' teachers, if they wanted the salary from the domain and their position intact, would have to go along to get along. I bet those were some interesting relationships to navigate!

I would admit, training under multiple schools in a single art as a beginner is not a good idea socially or technically, as you need time to imprint on the teacher and gain skill before looking at other perspectives. Also, training in competing groups under different heads is not possible, if the competition is polite (different menkyo-kaiden in the same art who are colleagues) or acrimonious (training under a teacher who has broken away from their own teacher of an art will not endear oneself with the main line of the group).

But training in a second art that teaches a different weapon as its focus, or a jujutsu ryu and a kenjutsu ryu probably will not cause people much trouble. There are exceptions to all things, and there are groups that forbid training in other arts, or require a new student to get permission from their current teachers to begin training.

But I feel the statement you made that I quoted above is a bit too rigid.

A challenge is when the arts content diverges, and organizing principles conflict -- I would put more emphasis on the physical and mental challenges of absorbing two competing approaches to grappling or dueling or what-have-you than the social concerns. Ellis writes about this extensively as well.