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Don't take this the wrong way, but ENTJ's - to me at least - seem to just lay it out there logically and there's less...how to say....less "going on under the surface"...less of a hidden agenda....it's less "muddy".

There's less "wiggling around" or "trying to be right" - at least that's how it seems from my POV..

No worries, it makes total sense. It is very muddy from a certain point of view (when you add Fi you become aware of this and it becomes a lot harder to work through because you're leaving behind the self-evidence of Ni-Te), very difficult to put into words and we go about the process of wiggling and trying to be right (which is something INTPs seem to do internally and it's maybe a different wiggling) in an odd way from a non-NJ point of view. And hidden agenda - sure, when you're stuck on a vision and you want to protect its integrity more than anything...but that's young ones I like to think. In that case Te is just a means to an end.

Originally Posted by Jenaphor

Consider how Ni-Te works. It's like snapshots of entire detail fuzzy frameworks. An INTJ argues by shifting entire frameworks, where contents in their entirety will change. Now consider how INTPs work with Ti-Ne. They start with a framework and then try to populate it in a crystal clear detailed way. They can also hold multiple frameworks open, incorporating information that's pertinent to each framework.

So...when determined to win and not be pinned down, INTJs will shift around. INTPs will try to understand their logic and not figure it out since information is coming from new frames of reference. There appears to be no logical flow to the INTJs information even though in the INTJs mind, they see logic since they've already shifted.

Just observations of both types from an observers perspective.

Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).

So, knowing this, how might you recommend "fixing" the communications for easier flow? From the INTP perspective? If I'm talking with an INTJ colleague, what can I change or do differently in order to accomodate him or just to get along better? I guess that's what I'm having trouble with. I totally understand what you're saying...but, what to do about it - that's the important question.

My only suggestion would be to debate with INTJ individuals who are honestly open to other perspectives and communicating their own logic in a form that is intended to be an exchange of ideas, rather than some who are using deliberate obfuscation to win. Uytuun appears to be one who's interested in communicating.

Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).

Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.

No worries, it makes total sense. It is very muddy from a certain point of view (when you add Fi you become aware of this and it becomes a lot harder to work through because you're leaving behind the self-evidence of Ni-Te), very difficult to put into words and we go about the process of wiggling and trying to be right (which is something INTPs seem to do internally and it's maybe a different wiggling) in an odd way from a non-NJ point of view. And hidden agenda - sure, when you're stuck on a vision and you want to protect its integrity more than anything...but that's young ones I like to think. In that case Te is just a means to an end.

Yes, we are able to wiggle as well if we need to. Ne allows us to "take different avenues" if necessary. But, ultimately, as you may know, the INTP's main goal is "understanding". We want to understand where the other person is coming from, what their motives are, why they have a certain perspective, etc. So, our wiggling is a method by which we can explore a thing or a person from different angles. If I'm trying to figure something out, I'll view it from the north. Next day, I'll view it from the south, then the west, then the east, then from a bird's eye view, etc. All for the purpose of understanding it and how it works and how I can interact smoothly and successfully with it.

Yeah, both types (stereotypically considered) think outside of the box, I think, but they're oriented very differently...INTJs shuffle boxes (new boxes, turning them upside down...whatever) and their perspectives with regard to them (these are the mind acrobatics I was referring to), INTPs are shuffling elements within a box and/or slowly shift the angle at which they consider the box (architects)...help from INPs in constructing the details of my new box is invaluable. They are in that sense much more detail-oriented and "substantial" than I am (though I enjoy building myself I'm still pretty new at it).

Help me understand how you see INTP's helping you construct the details of a new box. Maybe a real-life example? Is it like you have a vision of what you'd like to do or where you'd like to go with something, but you don't really have the details of "how" that will be accomplished? And then the INTP is able to say, "just do a, b, c, x, y, z" and it'll work out just fine!" Is it something like that?

Originally Posted by Jenaphor

My only suggestion would be to debate with INTJ individuals who are honestly open to other perspectives and communicating their own logic in a form that is intended to be an exchange of ideas, rather than some who are using deliberate obfuscation to win. Uytuun appears to be one who's interested in communicating.

Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.

Interesting, cuz we're so much the opposite. For me, it's like...I want to fill in all the details first...before I make a move. Because often, if I move out without the details filled in, I quickly begin running into major problems and I go, "damn! should have worked that out before hand. Should have thought this through more." I mean, Ne allows us to navigate as new things come up...but Ti wants to research it all out first in order to see if the entire thing is even feasible at all (on paper or in our mind). If we realize that it's not feasible or if it's just got to many obstacles (not worth the trouble, reward not worth time invested), then we'll scrap the whole plan and not waste any time trying to implement.

On the downside of this - we sometimes spend time brainstorming and talk ourselves out of ever doing things. The result is that we're very selective in what we set out to do. Better to try 5 things and have them all be successful, then to try 100 things and have 80 be successful and 20 failures.

NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.

There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

Ti can be really draining for me to use so if you're experiencing same, I empathise!! But it is fun to learn to use. What's seriously difficult is that as a near-Si cripple, the clarity is really hard. So much easier to just hold the entire concept in mind, detail fuzzy, then go get detail when it's necessary.

Yes, exactly, it's easy to hold it in your mind intuitively, but working it all out - not so much. I get a tremendous kick out of the clarity and trying to work something out, although I'm clearly more like an enthusiastic puppy than a wise sensei in that regard, it's all a bit crude still I think, INPs are much more elegant and - yes - effortless about it. I have to really put myself in a certain mood in order to use it in a refined way, take it to the next level, manage a clear enunciation. And you're right it is draining after a while (possibly because we still want to hold it in our minds the way we do with the intuition, but it's heavy - still that is how we will manage to make crazy connections to/with/about it I think) and sometimes difficult to integrate into your general way of approaching the world. And you mention Ti, but based on the context in which it works best for me, the stuff I tap into, the "mood" I put myself in, I'd say it is Fi-related (as well). I spent quite some time being dissatisfied with Ni-Te (without realising it at the time I think), I (it) felt hollow...the progression to using more introverted judging, reaching for more substance, was rather natural. Was wondering whether you see Fi as playing a role in it at all.

Help me understand how you see INTP's helping you construct the details of a new box. Maybe a real-life example? Is it like you have a vision of what you'd like to do or where you'd like to go with something, but you don't really have the details of "how" that will be accomplished? And then the INTP is able to say, "just do a, b, c, x, y, z" and it'll work out just fine!" Is it something like that?

Actually, oddly enough, yeah. I can't really give you a "concrete concrete" example (I'm in academia), but say that I'm writing a paper and I have a nice and substantial shift and I've spent time trying to find tools and ways to think it out, integrating shifty ways of trying to conceptualise my initial shift with an actual way of conceptualising it (which means thinking hard, I don't have the feeling I actually *thought* much (consciously) before starting to use whatever can be related to Fi/Ti). If I give an INP a first draft of that they will not touch the shifts much, but they will help me improve my framework and see things (sometimes see things that are implicitly there, but I haven't managed to unearth yet or put into words) or hand me concepts that are extremely useful "you can do x, y, z and you should do a I think, then it'll be fine" and when I apply those things it does seem to bring things together. So yeah, I guess they see where I want to go and how I want to go about it and then help me get there. And sometimes while filling in your box you realise there are issues which would have remained obscured to you in the "intuitive mind-holding" mode or new shifts are triggered or it helps you think of the box as a circle connected to some odd blob-like thing, the possibilities are endless,but in this case not "empty"...I think that when you take an "enriched" idea back to RL (it's not my area, lol, but I don't think INTP ideas need to be Abstract Realm only) and apply it we might be able to solve complex and very real issues in ways that transcend the sometimes ad hoc character of (N)TJ solutions (BTW, I suppose those might help you out when you're feeling stuck in a situation because you" haven't thought it out properly" - in certain contexts)...hello philosophy I suppose.

Also, one thing that I've noticed is that when I write a piece I will, without realising it, bring the text together in the formal system of language...INPs seem to have the same with logic - it permeates what they write even though at first sight coherence might seem off (to me). It's kind of funny because as a perceivedly big bad serious INTJ I feel rather frivolous amongst these logic-savvy INPs.

As for effective communication - does it help to just realise where the INTJs you're interacting with are coming from? Or perhaps you could point out assumptions, thematise the communication issue when it pops up.

Gee, Nicodemus - I could have written that myself, except for 5. I'd pick "neither" with Greta Garbo as a write-in.

I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...