Firstly, 35 Buddhas in the Tibetan tradition is taught as a vajrayana practice. Don't believe me? Go to a temple in Thailand and start talking about visualizing a merit field and they will freak the hell out. So regarding your statement "One can start prostrations to the 35 Confession Buddhas, as this is a Sutra practice" you are actually agreeing with me you CAN start practice vajrayana without a lung.

The 35 Confession Buddhas practice is based on the Three Heaps Sutra. It is a Sutra practice. Thai monks will not recognise it's validity because it is a Mahayana (Sutra) practice and Thais are Theravada (Sutta) practitioners. But I am sure you know this so I cannot understand why you even brought it up as an example.

Secondly, here's what a lineage holder said when a student asked what they can practice without empowerment regarding "The Dakini Heart Essence" from the Dudjom Tersar (a text which is about as vajrayana and esoteric as we are ever going to get).

“Heres what you can practice without receiving an empowerment, the two prayers of aspiration, the foundational practices, or the ngon-dro, the essential sadhanas of all the four dakinis, chod, the feast offering, extensive yeshe sogyal sadhana practice.

That is advice to a particular student. On another occasion the "lineage holder" may gave completely different advice to another student or even the same student. Do not generalise from a specific instance. In general Ngondro practices require ritual reading, oral explanations and (in the case where there is self-visualisation (like in Vajrasattva practice) empowerment is needed too.

Its not illegal to do any of these practices without empowerment, but to really fully benefit you should really receive empowerment and SECONDLY you should receive lung and thirdly, you should receive instruction, so you can kind of embark on your own but its like not optimum by any means.” Lama Yeshe Dechen Wangmo

Why would you do a practice knowing that you will not benefit from it?

Anyway, I think its about time for people on this forum and everywhere else on the planet to stop saying categorically "you cant practice things without lungs and empowerment" because the truth is you can!

Of course you can: Sutra and Sutta practices, common Mahayana practices (lojong, etc...) andVajrayana practices (but with little to no benefit).

Hell, you even bunjee jump without a cord if you want to (once, maybe twice if you are super lucky).

Its detrimental to people practice. They should be practicing this second not waiting for a mythical lung because some ignorant person told them they needed one. This is a huge sin in my opinion.

Nobody said that somebody should not practice. What does sin have to do with anything?

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Firstly, 35 Buddhas in the Tibetan tradition is taught as a vajrayana practice. Don't believe me? Go to a temple in Thailand and start talking about visualizing a merit field and they will freak the hell out. So regarding your statement "One can start prostrations to the 35 Confession Buddhas, as this is a Sutra practice" you are actually agreeing with me you CAN start practice vajrayana without a lung.

The 35 Confession Buddhas practice is based on the Three Heaps Sutra. It is a Sutra practice. Thai monks will not recognise it's validity because it is a Mahayana (Sutra) practice and Thais are Theravada (Sutta) practitioners. But I am sure you know this so I cannot understand why you even brought it up as an example.

Secondly, here's what a lineage holder said when a student asked what they can practice without empowerment regarding "The Dakini Heart Essence" from the Dudjom Tersar (a text which is about as vajrayana and esoteric as we are ever going to get).

“Heres what you can practice without receiving an empowerment, the two prayers of aspiration, the foundational practices, or the ngon-dro, the essential sadhanas of all the four dakinis, chod, the feast offering, extensive yeshe sogyal sadhana practice.

That is advice to a particular student. On another occasion the "lineage holder" may gave completely different advice to another student or even the same student. Do not generalise from a specific instance. In general Ngondro practices require ritual reading, oral explanations and (in the case where there is self-visualisation (like in Vajrasattva practice) empowerment is needed too.

Its not illegal to do any of these practices without empowerment, but to really fully benefit you should really receive empowerment and SECONDLY you should receive lung and thirdly, you should receive instruction, so you can kind of embark on your own but its like not optimum by any means.” Lama Yeshe Dechen Wangmo

Why would you do a practice knowing that you will not benefit from it?

Anyway, I think its about time for people on this forum and everywhere else on the planet to stop saying categorically "you cant practice things without lungs and empowerment" because the truth is you can!

Of course you can: Sutra and Sutta practices, common Mahayana practices (lojong, etc...) andVajrayana practices (but with little to no benefit).

Hell, you even bunjee jump without a cord if you want to (once, maybe twice if you are super lucky).

Its detrimental to people practice. They should be practicing this second not waiting for a mythical lung because some ignorant person told them they needed one. This is a huge sin in my opinion.

Nobody said that somebody should not practice. What does sin have to do with anything?

Sorry my bad..go to any temple in Japan and say your visualizing the merit field and watch them freak the hell out! Do i really need to reiterate to you that generation stage is strictly a vajrayana practice?

Next thing your going to say is you cant recite OM MANI PADME HUM without a lung because its a really special and secret vajrayana practice!

Lama Yeshe Dechen Wangmo advice wasn't only for just that one person, it was general advice for anyone who wished to practice it, she mentions it many times and its CLEAR! She makes all the practices available online to download for free to anyone who wishes to practice, no secret password necessary, but she does withhold the things you CANT practice without the prerequisite.

And theres a HUGE difference between no benefit and optimum benefit don't bend the Lama's on words! She is the lineage holder not you!! Other people are reading this not just you!! I dont think its appropriate to bend the Lamas words. Are you the lineage holder or her?

Sorry my bad..go to any temple in Japan and say your visualizing the merit field and watch them freak the hell out!

Ummmm... if it is a Pureland Temple and you say you are visualising Amitabha Buddha somehow I don't think they will freak out.

Do i really need to reiterate to you that generation stage is strictly a vajrayana practice?

No, but you need to be clear about what you are saying, giving relevant examples is one aspect of this.

Next thing your going to say is you cant recite OM MANI PADME HUM without a lung because its a really special and secret vajrayana practice!

A "straw man" logical fallacy. Only you have used the descriptors "special" and "secret".

Lama Yeshe Dechen Wangmo advice wasn't only for just that one person, it was general advice for anyone who wished to practice it, she mentions it many times and its CLEAR! She makes all the practices available online to download for free to anyone who wishes to practice, no secret password necessary, but she does withhold the things you CANT practice without the prerequisite.

And all the other teachers I have had the good karma to meet say the exact opposite.

And theres a HUGE difference between no benefit and optimum benefit don't bend the Lama's on words! She is the lineage holder not you!! Other people are reading this not just you!! I dont think its appropriate to bend the Lamas words. Are you the lineage holder or her?

An "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.

You know what? I can take one of these...

...and go four wheel driving. But why would I bother if I can take one of these?

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Sorry my bad..go to any temple in Japan and say your visualizing the merit field and watch them freak the hell out!

Ummmm... if it is a Pureland Temple and you say you are visualising Amitabha Buddha somehow I don't think they will freak out.

Do i really need to reiterate to you that generation stage is strictly a vajrayana practice?

No, but you need to be clear about what you are saying, giving relevant examples is one aspect of this.

Next thing your going to say is you cant recite OM MANI PADME HUM without a lung because its a really special and secret vajrayana practice!

A "straw man" logical fallacy. Only you have used the descriptors "special" and "secret".

Lama Yeshe Dechen Wangmo advice wasn't only for just that one person, it was general advice for anyone who wished to practice it, she mentions it many times and its CLEAR! She makes all the practices available online to download for free to anyone who wishes to practice, no secret password necessary, but she does withhold the things you CANT practice without the prerequisite.

And all the other teachers I have had the good karma to meet say the exact opposite.

And theres a HUGE difference between no benefit and optimum benefit don't bend the Lama's on words! She is the lineage holder not you!! Other people are reading this not just you!! I dont think its appropriate to bend the Lamas words. Are you the lineage holder or her?

An "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.

You know what? I can take one of these...

...and go four wheel driving. But why would I bother if I can take one of these?

Nice analogy with the cars I agree but that little electric car will atleast get me out of the city. Atleast I'm going somewhere other then nowhere. And thats why the lineage holder specifically stated you can start now and get the empowerment later.

Students need to rethink the advice they give other new students because it's like stealing that electric car and driving it full throttle into a brick wall.

Personally I never take advice from students but as they say biten once twice shy.

Nice analogy with the cars I agree but that little electric car will atleast get me out of the city. Atleast I'm going somewhere other then nowhere.

I agree, but if I drive it out into the wilderness the chances are I am going to get stranded.

And thats why the lineage holder specifically stated you can start now and get the empowerment later.

This snippet of information changes everything. I agree with this.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Personally I never take advice from students but as they say biten once twice shy.

So much for that sangha jewel.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Anyway, I think its about time for people on this forum and everywhere else on the planet to stop saying categorically "you cant practice things without lungs and empowerment" because the truth is you can!

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

We take refuge only in the Ārya Sangha, bodhisattvas on the stages, arhats, and other awakened beings.

And thus my point stands.
"never" excludes the potential for all of those sources of refuge in the sangha jewel.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

We take refuge only in the Ārya Sangha, bodhisattvas on the stages, arhats, and other awakened beings.

And thus my point stands.
"never" excludes the potential for all of those sources of refuge in the sangha jewel.

It's a great resource, no doubt you get first hand accounts of some amazing stories but it's mixed with some fantastical ones. When someone starts talking about seeing emanations and explaining the moment when they reached the path of seeing I kinda switch off.

Many students and even the monks reject alot of the teachings and dont follow the advice of the Buddha as written in the scriptures, let alone the advice of the teacher.

But of course there's some amazing practitioners and even the amazing ones can send you astray.

Anyway, I think its about time for people on this forum and everywhere else on the planet to stop saying categorically "you cant practice things without lungs and empowerment" because the truth is you can!

Requirements for practicing Secret Mantra start around 1:50...

Blessings are necessary and if the Guru says you can practice without a lung that is a blessing of the lineage, albeit big or small.

We do not take refuge in our fellow students whom we may refer to in English as our brother and sister sangha members. We take refuge in the Arya Sangha of Arhats and Bodhisatvas on the stages. This is a really important point and one I find many Western Buddhists are not clear on.

Limiting the scope of the refuge in the sangha jewel doesnt really correspond with the view of the inner tantras in my opinion.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Do Mahayanis not only take refuge in 8th bhumi bodhisattvas on up, or am I misremembering?

Skimping through the Mahayansutralamkara's refuge chapter it doesn't explain much on the refuge in the sangha; Paltrul's Essential Instruction on Refuge and Bodhichitta says:

The sangha is the irreversible sangha of bodhisattvas. These are the bodhisattvas on the ten bhūmis, who can not revert to saṃsāra, because they have realized emptiness directly through their wisdom, and who do not fall into the extreme of quiescence, because in their compassion they care for beings with the love of a mother for her only child.

I seem to be having issues with finding a school that will teach to me personally on a regular basis, and this makes me wonder, is there anyone here or can recommend any authentic teachers who will willingly take on a fresh student to learn systems such as the preliminaries, generation and development stages via skype ect.

i do have centres near to where i live that teach but they do not have students they personally dedicate themselves to and this i find is a pity, it seems that most if not all the centres and organisations in the uk teach via retreat and for something as deep as dzogchen and nyingma its a bit of an issue if anyone is going to have real deep experience through this.

i can make donations for such things,

Blessings

Lee

Lee you could try emailing Dechen Yeshe Wangmo. She started vajrayana world for people exactly like. I emailed her about a year back and to my surprise she personally answered. She use to host intimate webinars for those interested to learn over the internet however maybe she is more busy these does since the website is up and running. Anyway it's worth a shot, does any of reading this have any objections to her authenticity?

Anyway you should always check the teacher. Ask around before you commit fully.

“Heres what you can practice without receiving an empowerment, the two prayers of aspiration, the foundational practices, or the ngon-dro, the essential sadhanas of all the four dakinis, chod, the feast offering, extensive yeshe sogyal sadhana practice.That is advice to a particular student. On another occasion the "lineage holder" may gave completely different advice to another student or even the same student. Do not generalise from a specific instance. In general Ngondro practices require ritual reading, oral explanations and (in the case where there is self-visualisation (like in Vajrasattva practice) empowerment is needed too.

[/quote]
Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive says:

Once one has taken tantra vows one needs to recite twenty-one long or twenty-eight short mantras every day.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapt ... 4ma-part-2
Is this only applicable for Gelugpas? I have observed this advice of short mantra. I am not sure can I recite it? I have during few years recited it and sutric practices occasionally. I have not reached lama. I go every Dharma Event I can. I don't follow one teacher. I don't know how many teacher I have.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.