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IMO this is really another case of a classical language adjective gone weird. Umbra is Latin for shadow or dark. XU uses that in a vowel-consonant position exchange. There is an Anglicized form, Umber, for the dark brown pigment used by painters. The Indo-European cognates interestingly include "rot, rotten" as meanings - so the term covers lots of what we love about Darkness.

And "Umbraism" is hard to pronounce, while "Umbarism" is fairly easy.

Yeah, I was thinking that it was just using pseudo-Latin to get across an opposite to enlightenment (which already uses illuminare/illumino from Latin.)

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Hm... the primeval tree canopy absorbs the light, making the underbrush dark and shadowy.... Too literal thinking, or extended allegory?

My version of Aldryami Yelmalio has exactly this. Yelmalio is the Bright Canopy, again Light Without heat, leaving the shadowy floor below. You come across clearings full of blinding light (Sunbright) and see sun beams piercing the gloom from small holes in the canopy (RQ2 Sunbright, or Spotlight).

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IMO this is really another case of a classical language adjective gone weird. Umbra is Latin for shadow or dark. XU uses that in a vowel-consonant position exchange.

Thank you, Joerg, I was reaching for this explanation.

So Xiola Umbar is Xiola of Darkness (that it literally means something like Dark Chalana or Dark Carer is plausible). And the link to Umbarism becomes a simple linguistic one.

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

ZZ and XU aren't exactly troll deities.

This makes about as much sense as saying Issaries and Lhankor Mhy are not Orlanthi deities, IMO. Especially for XU - I can literally think of no reference, apart from current speculation, to any tradition of non-trolls worshipping XU anywhere.

The trolls have four main categories of deity (ancestral, Darkness entities, Darkness animals, foreign powers), ancestors is just one, the others are still troll deities.

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It is worth noting that Aldryami religion has a deep connection to the Underworld, much more than usually recognised, almost as much as the Uz. From the Guide:

“For some cultures, most notably the Uz and the Aldryami, the Underworld is their Otherworld. “

“For the Aldryami, the Underworld is the home of Flamal the Father of Seeds and source of the Primal Plasma that animates all Life.”

we think of the Aldryami as being associated with Light and the Sun, which reflects their life. But they are born in darkness below the earth. I think Aldryami shamanism centres around extending their elfsense, their psychic roots, deep below the earth, past the places where plants come into being, past where their roots seek nutrients for life, down to where the spirits that may become plants one day live, ultimately deep down to where all life begins.

So elves and underworld cults isn’t as big a stretch as people think. I don’t think we need to think about forest canopies etc too much - trees have half their bodies in the Underworld in their understanding.

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This makes about as much sense as saying Issaries and Lhankor Mhy are not Orlanthi deities, IMO. Especially for XU - I can literally think of no reference, apart from current speculation, to any tradition of non-trolls worshipping XU anywhere.

Yes, exactly. Issaries is the Hsunchen God of the Silver Feet, for instance. And Buserian is as far from being an Orlanthi deity as is Yelm.

So, yes, are there other forms of XU that we don't recognize as such? There is potential to look in the way of Malia, for a mythical split. Similar to the separation of Vadrus and Ragnaglar. (Apart from the Initiation of Orlanth, is there any myth which has both of these sons of Umath? Interacting with one another?)

The trolls have four main categories of deity (ancestral, Darkness entities, Darkness animals, foreign powers), ancestors is just one, the others are still troll deities.

Ancestral Troll deities are pretty exclusively worshiped by their descendants. While Vaneekara's hurling magic might be useful to other species, I know of no instance where she is worshiped. Jeset might be the most universally worshiped/propitiated ancestral troll deity for his role on the Paths of Silence.

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This thread is only making me more obsessed with the mythology & religion of Pelanda, Spol, & Carmania, a fact that I both thank and curse you all for 😜

So, regarding my notes on Spol & Spolitism...

Historical development of Spol & Spolitism

This goes beyond this thread, but I like the idea of Subere & Xentha being added to the worship of Gerra, Natha, Velortina, Vogestes, & GanEstoro.

Xiola Umbar & Umbarism

I've been convinced that Azerlo is Ty Kora Tek / Annara Gor, though I really wish I could equate her with XU, but unless I'm willing to claim XU is also Ty Kora Tek, I don't think I can do that, and I doubt I can get away with that.

I re-read the ENtekosiad piece about KataMoripi. There's nothing about her being particularly helpful or compassionate. She's the ghost of Dendara, a haunting reminder of fallen virtue, and she is horrible to behold. Her children are "corpse-like" and include Annilla / Veldara / Vendara.

As a side note, Spolitism is a rejection of the Jernotian Way, with its understanding of balance and virtue. If it exists, a Daxdarian religious tradition would also reject the Jernotian Way, and as I currently think about things, also not get along with Spolitism. But that's for another thread. This occurred to me because the Apotheosis of Daxdarius is interwoven with the fall of the House of Virtue.

So, without a good way to explain a common worship, I am left to agree that its probably a linguistic association rather than a deity: Spolitism is called Umbraism because it offers liberation in darkness

Sorcery

I'm intrigued at the idea of sorcerers using death rune spells to heal people by "removing" death, and how that would look and feel compared to someone using, say, harmony or life. It kind of reminds me of Pet Cemetery, actually.

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Where can I find information on vampires in Glorantha in published materials? It's getting to the point I need to engage that, I think.

Where can I find information on Carmania?

For this project, I have and have read the Entekosiad, the Guide to Glorantha, Intro to the Hero Wars, and both Imperial Lunar Handbooks. I also have the Fortunate Succession and the Glorious ReAscent, but I need to get into them a bit deeper.

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Where can I find information on vampires in Glorantha in published materials? It's getting to the point I need to engage that, I think.

RQG Bestiary has Vivamorti vampires and Delecti's Dancers in Darkness.

Sun County has an ancient vampire in the Old Sun Dome Temple IIRC (select this paragraph to read hidden spoiler text)

Cults of Terror/Cults Compendium has the RQ2 Vivamort cult.

Read up on Tanisor during the Gbaji Wars (also in the history of Arolanit and Seshnela) and Ramalia.

For Nontraya, search this forum for recent threads.

Quote

Where can I find information on Carmania?

For this project, I have and have read the Entekosiad, the Guide to Glorantha, Intro to the Hero Wars, and both Imperial Lunar Handbooks. I also have the Fortunate Succession and the Glorious ReAscent, but I need to get into them a bit deeper.

P.71 of Fortunate Succession starts laying out the Carmanian dualism mythos, with Idovanus and Ganesatarus sharing the womb of Uleria.

On the subject of this dualism, I have started to wonder whether the Fronelan Irensavalist dualism was inherited from the Enjoreli via common Tawari tales about Idovanus vs. Ganesatarus, resulting in Loskalmi Irensaval vs. Makan. Tomaris, the intellectual founder of Irensavalism, was active in the first and possibly second century, after there had been some exchange between bull folk and Malkioni.

When Syranthir led his army east, his Irensavalism may have been re-adsorbed by the original dualism between Idovanus and Ganesatarus.

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Also, um, just to be sure... is this the right forum for this? Or am I navelgazing and ranting about my glorantha too much?

This is the Glorantha forum. Where else would you discuss this (outside of a personal blog)?

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I've been convinced that Azerlo is Ty Kora Tek / Annara Gor, though I really wish I could equate her with XU, but unless I'm willing to claim XU is also Ty Kora Tek, I don't think I can do that, and I doubt I can get away with that.

I could still see it being workable.

You've got the dual powers of the underworld, Monster Man/Derdromus/Deshlotralas/Deshkorgos and Azerlo/Annara Gor. Hate and Compassion, easily connected to Zorak Zoran and Xiola Umbar (And even further to Bistos and Nira in the myth of When Orlanth was Prisoner.)

Unlike most depictions of Ty Kora Tek, Azerlo is not aged; bearing a son to ViSaruDaran -- Veskerele (something shared with Orlanth and Nira -- Finovan) while Xiola Umbar is noted for her lifegiving nature (although this does seem to be through midwifery rather than motherhood)

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I'm intrigued at the idea of sorcerers using death rune spells to heal people by "removing" death, and how that would look and feel compared to someone using, say, harmony or life. It kind of reminds me of Pet Cemetery, actually.

I agree. Perhaps it staves off Death - but does not actually cure the injury?

‘Death based healing’ might a temporary thing, but works against causes of death besides injury - poison, for example. It lasts only as long as the spells Duration - which might give you weeks, or months, to find a true cure. Sounds a fun role playing concept.

I think they might attain immortality by summoning the spirit of their own Death, and commanding it to leave them alone. Of course if the spell fails (and it may have weird requirements) Death comes calling.

They may even be able to do the classic folklore ‘remove the heart and put it in a box, and be unkillable until it is destroyed’ trick.

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I agree. Perhaps it staves off Death - but does not actually cure the injury?

‘Death based healing’ might a temporary thing, but works against causes of death besides injury - poison, for example. It lasts only as long as the spells Duration - which might give you weeks, or months, to find a true cure. Sounds a fun role playing concept.

It's mentioned the Barmalani had a spell of "remove wound caused by enemy's sword" it wouldn't surprise me if this is the same spell as the old GoG Rokari spell "Neutralize Damage," which was an all-or-nothing locationally-limited healing spell based on intensity.

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I agree. Perhaps it staves off Death - but does not actually cure the injury?

‘Death based healing’ might a temporary thing, but works against causes of death besides injury - poison, for example. It lasts only as long as the spells Duration - which might give you weeks, or months, to find a true cure. Sounds a fun role playing concept.

I think they might attain immortality by summoning the spirit of their own Death, and commanding it to leave them alone. Of course if the spell fails (and it may have weird requirements) Death comes calling.

They may even be able to do the classic folklore ‘remove the heart and put it in a box, and be unkillable until it is destroyed’ trick.

If you have an epidemic going around, or a camp of wounded soldiers, putting some death-delaying spells around might be really valuable. Just giving the actual healers some extra time.

Could it be used to delay the decay of foodstuffs? I assume the are already ways to do that with simpler spells, but this could be another.

EDIT: This might be stretching it, but could it be used to remove/neutralize poisons or venoms from food as well?

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If you have an epidemic going around, or a camp of wounded soldiers, putting some death-delaying spells around might be really valuable. Just giving the actual healers some extra time.

Sounds like a good spell for torturers, too. Not being able to die can be a harsh fate, compare King Vingkot undergoing immolation rather than continue to suffer from his chaos wound.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Could it be used to delay the decay of foodstuffs? I assume the are already ways to do that with simpler spells, but this could be another.

Decay is a form of digestion, and would be a Darkness power rather than Death power. (In fact, applying Death to foodstuff will prevent vermin or molds. Whether it remains nourishing is another question, though.)

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: This might be stretching it, but could it be used to remove/neutralize poisons or venoms from food as well?

This may depend on the nature of the venom. Paralyzing venoms are obviously an expression of Stasis. Digesting venoms are Darkness (or Water, if liquefying), and likewise diarrhea-inducing poisons. Anaesthetic venoms might be Death. Smothering poisons that make inhaling worthless (effects of carbon monoxide, cyanides, sulphides, arsenic (oxide), lead acetate) would be what? Inflammatory poisons would be Fire.

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I agree. Perhaps it staves off Death - but does not actually cure the injury?

‘Death based healing’ might a temporary thing, but works against causes of death besides injury - poison, for example. It lasts only as long as the spells Duration - which might give you weeks, or months, to find a true cure. Sounds a fun role playing concept.

I think they might attain immortality by summoning the spirit of their own Death, and commanding it to leave them alone. Of course if the spell fails (and it may have weird requirements) Death comes calling.

They may even be able to do the classic folklore ‘remove the heart and put it in a box, and be unkillable until it is destroyed’ trick.

I really like the idea of removing death being an independent question to whether or not someone has life.

This actually makes me think of Natha's Well, which is apparently a gigantic bog controlled by spirits that demand human sacrifice. If they are exceedingly pleased, they "sometimes send
them out of the bog with blessed companions who live as saints in Hagu." (E, P. 86). I'm now picturing holy and sentient undead bog bodies guarded by sorcerous essences & ghosts wandering around Northern Pelanda, as agents of Nathic balance. I find this image rather terrifying.

BTW, Natha's Well is .... worthy of more content. A bog, controlled by spirits, where the Earth was "penetrated" by either Lodril or Ghelotralas, that continues to be an active gate to the underworld.

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I really like the idea of removing death being an independent question to whether or not someone has life.

Reminds me of how in the RQ3 days the question of whether an entity was "complete" was resolved with characteristics like STR, POW and so on. It would be extremely interesting to approach it again now with paired power runes. Does a vampire, for example, cross off Fertility and only run on Death? You're not alive then but you're something more transgressive than simply dead.

I imagine powerful and desperate magicians committing to embody all the powers by rejecting their opposites and reaping strange rewards. We probably only hear about most of them in stories designed to frighten children.

Or in places like Spol.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

BTW, Natha's Well is .... worthy of more content. A bog, controlled by spirits, where the Earth was "penetrated" by either Lodril or Ghelotralas, that continues to be an active gate to the underworld.