Yeah, at that's largely their own fault. For being stupid as fuck and giving people decisionmaking power who would clearly better off with Walmart.

Or, you know, they could have been original. And could have respected their OWN legacy - if they don't respect the people who put millions of playhours (and thousands of DEVELOPING hours for zero monies whatsoever) into their games and are still active to this day.

90%+ of the game developers became visionless, lying pussies, targeting sheeps inside a narrow box. id joining their circle is indeed most sad.

Those people you describe who put million of play hours into their games are only a very small crowd and most of them way past young age. You can't possibly try to simply keep pleasing that very tiny community who will never be satisfied whatever you released because it's not "like it used to be", and who will barely give you any money.

Just like in any industry: niche = low money

It's true about music, films, games, sports etc.

They need to do something to appeal to the masses and get more mainstream, because let's face it even if you gathered all the remaining active players of today from Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, and QL it wouldn't make enough money for a new game to be created and maintained, especially considering all the pro players were on other games where there's tournament money like OW.

What exactly were you expecting from the new quake? Simply the same as Q3/QL but with better graphics and new maps? How would that possibly appeal to the masses?

You're considering your own interests and quake elitism before any real business intelligence here.

At the end of the day creating games is a business, and the last few quake games didn't generate nearly enough business or awareness.

The "quake needs to change because the last two quake games werent a success" logic has a major flaw, which is the actual quality of those titles - both q4 and ql had major issues after their release and lacked in content.

It's a curious direction that Quake 4 has taken this time around, with the heavy emphasis on single-player, apparently at the development cost of multiplayer, previously its very selling point. And while the SP production values are certainly expensive-looking and sounding, the actual combat mechanics feel a step behind the evolution of the genre, and not in an intentionally retro way. (...) There's a lot of shiny wrapping, but the gift inside is disappointingly small.

And ql didnt even touch the quality of 2001 amateur mods after 7 years of development.

So we know people dont want to play a true quake based on a 6/10 SP title and a bad remake of a 1999 game?
I'd agree with your point if there was a recent quake about which you could say 'Hey, this game was really, really good, but noone played it', but there's not.

Rofl, they did what with quakelive?
Quakelive only proved that a 11 years old game with no modern features is bound to flop.

I mean what do you think would've happened had Valve released CS 1.0 that ran in a browser and lacked any decent features in 2010?
Would you also say Dude, nobody wants to play realistic team shooters anymore?

And sure, Valve has an uncomparable amount of players to idsoft, but how did they get there? By building up their franchises - which is what Im suggesting. Csgo is still that 1999 cs game in a new habit and with modern features. Did work for cs, would work for quake.

CS is much more accessible to the casual audience than a hardcore game like the original quakes. That's the difference. What you're suggesting wouldn't really attract many players.

If you think CS:GO is the same as CS 1.6 I suggest you try both games again. You'd also make the hardcore CS 1.6 fans cry by saying what this.

Quake3 / QuakeLive are most likely my favourite games, and unfortunately I don't ever see them ever being at the top of eSport again whatever you're doing, even what you're suggesting: "keep the core, add features, better infrastructure and listen to the community".

Sometimes you gotta have a sense of business and try new things.

We'll have to see how QC goes, but so far it has managed to gather players from all previous quakes into 1 game, bring a lot of pros that we hadn't seen on quake for a few years back to activity or at least back from other games, and overall try to add new concepts to appeal to new players meaning that we have new players from other games playing it and even trying to compete in it.

So far I've met players from Overwatch, Dirty Bomb, ET and Starcraft on QC already who even though they knew about previous quake games or might have tried them, had never really played a lot of quake. And the game hasn't even been released yet.

The non hardcore quake fans barely know about the old quake games and that will not change. Those games haven't been removed or banned, you can still very much play them with your same community of 20 players.

Letting a potential business opportunity like the Quake franchise die is plain stupid and the opposite of being opportunistic.

And not all people are haters like you, I do enjoy QC and I'm not the only one.

If someone rapes your mom, and you hate them, are you a hater?
No, you're not---because a "hater" is someone who dislikes something irrationally. The implication behind the use of the word is always that it is wrong to hate what you hate or that you should not express your opinion on the matter because it upsets the positivity police.

According to his values and tastes, QC is a bad game. He'd like it different. That's fine. It's not irrational.

You can dislike something without hating on it with passion. He hates on it with passion, hence why he's a hater :)

I don't like the new medal of honor games since Medal of Honor Allied Assault that was released on pc in 2002 and I used to love MoHAA. But I'm not going around dissing the new medal of honor games on forums and always trying to compare how the old one was much better than the new ones, I learnt to move on and/or stick to the old versions.

CS is much more accessible to the casual audience than a hardcore game like the original quakes. That's the difference. What you're suggesting wouldn't really attract many players.

It's easier to get into because the franchise is recognized worldwide and because of its features and playerbase. That gets us back to quality and building up, because it doesn't happen overnight. People didn't miraculously start playing cs just because it's cs, there's 17 years of support and development involved.
Quake is only labelled hardcore because noobs got immidiately obliterated for years. Quake games have obviously a bigger skill gap than cs, then again if you need another analogy, how about cs noobs got matched against avarage or high level teams? It would be the very same.
Quake is a more accessible game in its principle, you shoot anything that moves, there are no bomb sites, buying or cooperation involved during your first games. Strafe jumping and item control are perfect for prolonging the gameplay, but they arent mandatory for people to have fun.
And I'm not even going into the insane variety of modes you could provide for all skill levels.

If you think CS:GO is the same as CS 1.6 I suggest you try both games again.

Csgo and 1.6 have the same core and the same gameplay. The differences (pre-firing, movement inertia, nade physics, eco rebalances) are minor. You don't have abilities, you don't mine minerals.

So now we know for sure that people from other games sometimes try f2p titles across genres. Cute.

We'll have to see how QC goes

QC is losing viewers, when I checked during the final qualies, EU duel had about 4k viewers, NA ~1.8k. That's pretty shit for a f2p game that anyone can play which has a 1mill tournament coming up soon. Things might change, but so far it's been a huge ql deja vu, aka no systematic work and nonsensical decisions.
Anyway I can't imagine a proper Quake sequel doing any worse.
(That's pretty strange come to think of it, because all the ingredients requested by the "quake cant be sucessful" group over the years are there.)

(That's pretty strange come to think of it, because all the ingredients requested by the "quake cant be sucessful" group over the years are there.)

Yep. It's funny seeing some of these cats that were so sure that the retarded shit being done with QC is what quake needs to be successful. It's funny to see them backpedal and come up with excuse after excuse as to why QC is failing.

But yet, they're so quick to throw qlive under the bus as if it were some high budget, AAA title developed on a new, cutting edge engine that failed. The way I see it, as horrible of a job as they did with qlive, it still managed for a period of time to make enough money to sustain itself. To me, that says if they actually got some talented or even competent people to work on a proper quake title, did some actual advertising for it, they could actually make some money.

Considering the weapon balance in QC, the loadout doesn't matter as much as it did spawning with a shotgun in quakelive.

Making the items easier to time isn't "dogshit", it just means you don't have to be doing fucking maths in your head while trying to enjoy a game. You will never get mass appeal to a game that requires you to mentally make maths calculations and remember the results of those calculations while focusing on the other aspects of the game.

I can see why some purists might like it and find it "hardcore", but it could just as much be considered nerdy and unnecessary.

I mean why not also make it even more hardcore by requiring players to complete a crosswords when they want collect an item?

Classic/popular Quake died when it became a niche. That was when Q4 was released and it wasn't a success.

And enthusiasts-only Quake died in about 2011-2012, when the QL's development became painfully slow and tournaments dropped the game.

Some people will argue Quake is not dead and all, but in QC it already takes several minutes of waiting to find a match even when there's a 1m tournament going on, and in QL you can only find CA matches. Dead games.

Had Ika to keep your seat warm when you were gone. Glad you've reassembled.

The day Quake died was when there was no worthy successor to q3. Raven couldn't live up to the hype. Game got fixed (q4) when most attention was gone. Q3 reboot didn't take off as it should due to marketing and queue mistakes. Game was not newb friendly and didn't offer the modern ladder and/or competitive features to keep things interested for low attention span crowd. Lack of match making made people get butchered without mercy.

Same pattern all the time; Inadequate product gets released > devs too stubborn/slow to listen to community; people leaving the qvuak; history repeats itself.

quake was never even alive for me tbh. I joined in like 2012 so thats very late considering when the game came out. It was REALLY hard to stay overall. Would I have not met 2-3 nice people who kept me in the game at the time, I would have probably quit very early. People in this game cant shut their whore-mouthes and constantly have to ego trip on others, while they never even achieved a thing... not even half decent elo.

keeping my feet in this game felt like trying to stay in a kindergarden full of misbehaving children, but without pay. the first few months were actual horror.. constantly getting kicked for being too bad, and if not that i was flamed until I quit cause it annoyed the piss out of me at some point. Quakers should NEVER question why there game died. you ego-asshats are the reason new people barely make it past the 5 hour mark in this game. rarely the game itself is the reason for it to be that way. After I became "good" I've seen tons of people flame/rage/votekick new people over and over again until I haven't seen them again.

So yeah... the day Quake died for me? The day I joined probably. But it was the only competitive shooter around that really took my intrest. But the community is some self centered hell-place that's doomed. Plenty of idiots that are like some religious sect who are happy as long as they have a handful of equally stupid people who just blindly agree with their opinion. But oh boy if you disagree with one of the "known" players or have an argument with them... load the choppers and let it rain. you'll be kicked within seconds if they have enough of their nobrain fanbois behind them on the server.

Of course not all people in this game are like that and I met a good bunch of people who were very nice... but Quake really has a 9/10 ratio of asshats in their game. asshats of the- "I play Quake so I'm a better and more wortwhile human being than any other human on this planet cause I play this super cool arena game and everyone who doesnt should die in a car crash" -level.

I'm ashamed and its true. But iirc quake server have always had a bit of hostility. I can remember being kicked off ra2 server many times. I was angry about and was only 12 y/o so who knows what kind of shit came out of my typing mouth. Not much has changed under the sun.

Unfortunately you're very right and I've seen it first hand. Luckily I'm a bit tough minded and it takes a lot to put me off something, but I can see how many players who try to get into it would get turned off by those things.

I even tried to bring some players from other relatively fast paced shooters like ET and Dirty Bomb, etc. into quake and this is pretty much what happened to them. Callvote kick for not being good enough or not playing how it's supposed to be played, especially in team modes like TDM, CTF or CA, being insulted and trolled etc.

The lack of a proper tier system where players are matched by skilled level is also a big factor. How are you supposed to compete with people who have 5, 10, 15 or sometimes nearly 20 years of experience in quake when you're new to it?

I remember first time when I tried to get into quake was around q4 'heyday' - I bought it but figured out quickly there are no pub games, so I tried polish osp ca servers

they were all 10 vs 10 fuckfests but I had a lot of fun, and for a few months I stayed there I wasnt kicked out even once, on other hand all the people were pretty chill 25-30 yo's (and I had my arse kicked accordingly to what you expect - I was propably the only newcomer I have seen at that time)

meanwhile QL CA people looked more like any blizzard game 'community', so yeah not hard to imagine your experience was quite opposite

I actually do enjoy it and I don't see how it's killing quake. Bringing something fresh into the game doesn't mean it's killing it.

Duel might be different to what it used to be, however you still have TDM.

Also suggestions and feedback can be given to improve the game and with the recent patches and updates the game is now getting better.

I really didn't enjoy QC during the closed beta and it really put me off. I didn't play it for several weeks but since I tried again a few days ago it's much better, sacrifice is actually a lot of fun and requires a lot of quick thinking, coordination, skill and strategy when played properly.

probably the day that Sponge threw me out of the chan for the focus group for testing QL stuff which kinda meant I stopped giving feedback.
There are lots of other options though like the day they altered the netcode or the day I first played QC... Or the day that Sync threw me out of the QC discord for calling out bad decisions (aka duel mode).

some people just can't handle losing discussions...
It would work much better if they ask the players what they think about a change and then either ask for more reasons as to why that is the case or just say thanks for the feedback.
They however liked to argument as to why they were right and I was wrong... Which ain't gonna work because I'm always right :D
(at least given a change in the code and how it will affect the game)

Quake is coming back to life with QC. Just look at all the pro players back into the game and playing it seriously.

Since when have we seen so many of the legendary quake players back in action?

We have Cypher, Cooller, Toxic, Stermy, 2GD, Rapha, Dahang, Evil, Av3k, Vo0, Agent and the list goes on all back in the game and playing both in duel and team.

QC also manages to gather players from several previous quake games, we have some Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, and QL players all in one game. Even in the world tournament you see players like Gaiia from CPMA, and some other known players from QW and Q2.

There are also a lot of new players from other games not just on the public servers but even some trying to compete in the world tournament. I've already met players from Dirty Bomb, Starcraft, Overwatch etc. in the game and they're enjoying it and doing fine.

And the game hasn't even officially been released yet with proper marketing.

All pro players go where the money is, that's not a mystery as it's their jobs. Hence why most of them moved to Overwatch or got actual jobs when there was no money left in quake. Tell me something I don't already know.

At the same time, they could easily go to games like CS, LoL or Dota if they were only after the money regardless of what the games are like.

Most of those pro players having a go in this tournament will not earn a single dollar as there can only be a select few who finish in the top seats. You might as well be gambling.

Clearly if they didn't enjoy the game at all they wouldn't be playing it countless hours.

You don't have to be a new school player buying into everything Tim Willits says to actually enjoy QC.

Call me new school or delusional all you want but I've been playing quake since Q3, and then Q4 and QL from their birth to their death.

I take Quake Champions for what it is and enjoy it rather than whine about it all day long on a forum like a sad nerd.

Being a fanboy is good, being a blind fanboy isnt. All those players are back because there are 1.000.000 reasons for them to do it. If the game doesnt gets a good amount of players and spectators, it will be the last big tournament for QC, putting a "hey were released now" sticker wont make people try it again. Hoping im wrong tho...

I'm not a fanboy nor blind. Why shall I hate on a game I actually do enjoy just to be part of the "cool quake crew" who hate on everything that isn't the old school way of quake? Get over yourself.

Pro players go where the money is, no shit boy. Cooller and Cypher even went to Overwatch. At the same time, it's very difficult to be a pro player on a game that you don't like as you have to play it countless hours, so your argument that they're in only for the money is BS.

Sure if there's no money left in the game they most likely will move on or only play it casually, but please don't tell me that having that small chance of getting some of the prize money is the only reason they play the game.

Considering only a very few of them will actually get some cash prize at the end, they might as well be gambling or playing the lottery or even actually getting a proper job if money is the only reason they're in.

I haven't met any ET players on it yet, hence why I haven't mentioned it.

There are plenty of old school ET players on Dirty Bomb though.

I also do see the potential in QC, sometimes you gotta give something a chance before shooting it down. The majority of those ESR nerds have been butthurt for over 10 years, no news here. They're still here typing away their salty tears, I feel for them.

They let the game die by not nerfing some OP mercs enough and not releasing any new maps for over a year. It seems to be back on track now but maybe a bit too late. I played a lot of it but then gave up on it when the competitive scene was only a few pugs and some very rare cups.

Competitively I guess when it got down to basically only 1 LAN/year (qcon), which wasn't enough to keep all the good players playing as much anymore. I don't really remember the timeline of all this though. But for me, competitively it kinda died some time after dreamhack pulled the life support plug. And when faceit dropped their online league I think that kinda put the nail in the coffin.

Don't get me wrong online cups and leagues are fun and kinda kept it "alive" for long as an esport title, but watching evil dunk everyone every week and cypher somtimes showing up to show everyone whos the boss with no 'end game' (LAN) in sight doesn't get as exciting. Like it's still fun to watch but it's the same every week so eventually I'd just watch it once a month or just the final and then even less as time went on. No LANs = no fun.

But for casual play it has never died imo, still people playing and people will probably play all versions of quake for many years to come.

The sunday cups certainly helped to keep some people around quake, but I think that QL died when esl decided to drop it, or maybe they dropped it because they realised that QL was dead already

there's been an attempt to push QL farther with introducing it to mlg, and since the whole thing crashed and burned that was the turning point, game couldnt get a hold on the initial playerbase (ql launch was actually pretty successfull) and the viewer count on streams followed that trend

esports alone wont keep the game alive if the game itself is failing to attract - first and foremost - the players

This is actually similar case to QC, ID is putting out a huge competition meanwhile the game itself is lacking on a lot of vital aspects with the release date beeing propably just around the corner (I suspect they dont want to keep it in limbo much longer after quakecon is finished)

lackluster matchmaking system, flawed engine and netcode, game balance leaving a lot to be desired (just finished watching tox vs voo as I type this post), map designs, cluttered visuals, flagship team mode failing to be enjoyable to watch for new players (which was suposed to be their strategy : showing big competition with amazing game mode that everyone wants to play).

Moreover - this is their second attempt to push the game that - while keeping the core gameplay - disconnects completely from the roots of quake scene - custom maps, servers, varied gamemoded like freezetag, race, instagib, coming in all flavours from tdm to ctf, to domination - that was a big and vital part of quake.
Players could tweak the game themselves and the popular vote decided what is popular and what's not.

They thought they were better than that with QL, now they are proving they think same with QC - all we hear is that 'maybe at some point if you guys will buy some skins you'll get some of that', and then we can read Tim Willits saying that there is custom game but he's discouraging players to put variations on the gameplay, propably because he thinks his vision of what Quake is suposed to be is the only answer to the needs of community.
Yes, I said community, because Quake is the community game if there ever was one.

Well, guess what, Tim : people will tell your game is dogshit and they wont bother to check 2 years later if you decided to put custom servers and map editor or you have decided not to because you are a prick, they will move on, you can make the first impression only once, you should know that already

"What do you mean by that, Kluczmen, go back and take your meds"
Lets look at what QL offered for first 2-3 years :
-samey ffa games on about 6 maps with 4 of them beeing actually liked by players
-duels on ztn
- for an annual fee: aerowalk and some other maps no one knew how to play outside of inner circle of 10 guys on irc and esreality - and few empty freezetag servers
-some ocasional team games which were held on one or two maps for the most part (q3dm6 and chemical reaction) but werent popular at all, no one made any effort to make the team modes attractive for new players, they just stuck on ffas and ca till they felt fed up
-winter's edge was added in 2013 i believe but someone can fact check me on that
-shit tdm with ffa item respawns

This is same story with QC, the gameplay served to general public will keep around only the dedicated lot that keeps working on hitting 40% lg on anarki.

"People in mobas or overwatch got quick game, ladder game and these games are played by milions, my game is briliant and we'll make quake great again!"
You are going to be very suprised

And its not even the list of flaws that makes me worried about the game, it just feels like ID havent learned from their past mistakes or they dont even want to aknowledge them, the pattern is repeating despite the fact they have put a lot more of resources into development compared to QL.