I'm just as intrigued at the pro-Limbaugh responses to this article. They seem to underscore my opinion that the far right in America is doing more to destroy Christian faith than legions of Roman lions ever did.

If nothing else, the URL for the first article is somewhat amusing and/or ironic:

quote:.../la-me-religion...

Why, yes, I do find it kind of lame.
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on March 17, 2009, 11:28:

I don't see the religious right turning people off to that extent. Yeah, they're repugnant, but there are plenty of moderate or even liberal churches where people could find a spiritual home, if religion were important to them.

The underlying cause is, I think, that organized religion is becoming largely irrelevant. We have governmental heirarchies that impose law and order (and food safety regulations). We have secular education systems. We can read, and thanks to Gutenberg, everyone can have their own copy of whatever holy book they prefer to study and meditate upon. So what purpose, really, does a bloated, out-of-touch organization serve?
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on March 17, 2009, 12:20:

quote:Originally posted by fs: So what purpose, really, does a bloated, out-of-touch organization serve?

Trying to keep old ways current. And among other things, making sure a woman's body belongs to her husband or father. Example 1: Vatican's position about condom usage; example 2: the case of the abortion of an 9-year old Brazilian girl who had been raped by her father. And that's just the most recent that spring to my mind.
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on March 17, 2009, 13:46:

quote:Originally posted by Stereo: example 2: the case of the abortion of an 9-year old Brazilian girl who had been raped by her father. And that's just the most recent that spring to my mind.

Step-father. Not that that makes it any better. Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 17, 2009, 16:47:

quote:Originally posted by fs: So what purpose, really, does a bloated, out-of-touch organization serve?

Several purposes. First although there are a fair number of uncompromising rational atheists like yourself fs, they are not I think the majority, and I don't think they ever will be. The religious impulse is in my opinion a deep thing in human nature. Most people I believe want to be part of something bigger than their petty lives. As that Bob Dylan song puts it, "You've got to serve somebody". I don't know much about other religions, but Christianity is not something you do alone in your room with a book, it's about how you connect with society and the wider world and your church is a channel for that as well as a source of spiritual fuel and comfort for you. So if you are a Christian you will most probably feel the need for a church to connect with.

Now when people don't channel their religious impulse through a mainstream religion, it generally emerges in other more insidious and damaging forms, whether its the intolerance and rejection of reason of Christian fundamentalist churches, or even worse as you head into paranoid hate filled worlds of cults run by megalomaniacs such as the Moonies or Scientology. You could argue too that this misdirected religious impulse is what fuels utopian political movements of the extreme right or left, whether the Marxists with their vision of a socialist millennium, or the extreme right Republicans with their vision of spreading democracy and liberty around the globe.

No church is perfect. They are run by fallible human beings, as much susceptible to the corrupting effects of power and pride as the rest of us, but those dull middle of the road churches are so much better than the alternatives. It is therefore sad that so many people see hem as irrelevant, as I don't believe that religious impulse is fading.

And to answer the question posed by the thread, yes the religious right has done at least as much damage to the Christian religion as it has to politics, and that is a serious thing.
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 24, 2009, 17:43:

quote: Topic: Have Republicans turned America away from God?

posted March 17, 2009 11:28I don't see the religious right turning people off to that extent. Yeah, they're repugnant, but ....

Why not ask a different question: Has Islamic violence "turned people away from god"?

Should one assume that the beheading of women (such as Aasiya Zubair) isn't a "turn-off"?

quote: posted March 17, 2009 12:20Trying to keep old ways current. And among other things, making sure a woman's body belongs to her husband or father. Example 1: Vatican's position about condom usage; example 2: the case of the abortion of a 9-year old Brazilian girl who had been raped by her father. And that's just the most recent that spring to my mind.

What about rape victims that are killed because they have "brought dishonor" upon their families?

quote: posted March 17, 2009 16:47 ... when people don't channel their religious impulse through a mainstream religion, it generally emerges in other more insidious and damaging forms, whether its the intolerance and rejection of reason of Christian fundamentalist churches, or even worse as you head into paranoid hate filled worlds of cults run by megalomaniacs such as the Moonies or Scientology. You could argue too that this misdirected religious impulse is what fuels utopian political movements of the extreme right or left, whether the Marxists with their vision of a socialist millennium, or the extreme right Republicans with their vision of spreading democracy and liberty around the globe.

It's _almost_ funny that you said "paranoid hate filled worlds of cults run by megalomaniacs" and failed to mention the groups associated with bombing London buses and Madrid trains.

PS: Maybe people "turn away from religion" because the media told them to (and not because of the acts of religions' followers).
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 24, 2009, 17:55:

ASM!Where've you been?Long time no mock!

So, ASM, how are you enjoying life in the Socialist Islamic Caliphate of Obamarabia (SICO) ?

quote:Quoth the confused one:It's _almost_ funny that you said "paranoid hate filled worlds of cults run by megalomaniacs" and failed to mention the groups associated with bombing London

Can anyone guess which religion is most closely associated with terrorist attacks in London?

As Pope Jean-Luc Picard said to the Cylons while digging the Panama Canal, "We come in Peace, shoot to kill".
Posted by geekygoddess (Member # 15702) on March 24, 2009, 19:20:

Holy Crap!!! He's back!!!

This is gonna be interesting...
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 24, 2009, 20:03:

quote: So, ASM, how are you enjoying life in the Socialist Islamic Caliphate of Obamarabia (SICO) ?

Well, since President Obama's diplomatic gift-giving of American DVD's that (generally) don't play in the recipient's country, I'm a bit dismayed.

Was he trying to be a complete moron, an arrogant (foreign) prick, or an anarchist (sowing discord between governments)?

What's next? Jack Daniel's and Jim Beam (alcoholic spirits) for the diplomats of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? Is he going to give "STEAK" knives and a leather cowboy outfit (made from real cows) to some dignitary of India?

... anyway, back to the topic.

According to "leftist" claims, "Bush" almost single-handedly turns "millions" away from "the Christian God" (not mention other acts far beyond the capabilities of mere mortals).

The outrageous behavior of the Iranian president shows no sign of turning people away from Islam. No one seems to have turned away from Islam because of high ranking clerics supporting the Taliban's barbaric intolerance against almost everything.

If you believe all the leftist rants, one thing should be clear: "Bush" is a GOD ... (probably from the Norse pantheon).

For the Atheists:

quote: (Assuming) The more religious the culture, the more violent the country's behavior.The less religious the culture, the less violence in the country and the greater the rationality of the people.Therefore, America in becoming less and less religious has become more and more "peaceful" with every generation.

Given that, I'll "bet" there's no real Atheists here because (as leftists) they'd rather hate the US than openly criticize any country that (brutally) punishes those who deviate from the religion which dominates 99% of the masses.

quote: This is gonna be interesting...

No it won't. Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on March 24, 2009, 20:15:

Let's just remember ASM,

The real traitors are the Republicans who devoted themselves to causing America to fail.

Bush demonstrated that mission so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, with Katrina, Enron and so many other disasters. And your lord, god Rush Limbaugh has been so eloquent in his wish for American failure.

You desire for American failure cannot be denied.

Indeed the entire "Stars and Bars" Southern ethic to which you subscribe is failure driven. And as such it is a traitor belief.

As a traitor to America and its Constitution, you have disgraced the constitution with torture and murder. And as a failed Christian you have betrayed Christ just as Judas did, by trading your faith for greed.

Jesus said you could not serve two Gods. You serve greed.

You cannot serve two nations. It is evident you serve the terrorists.

Your own stated willingness to serve the almighty dollar above god also betrays your willingness to sell America to its enemies.

Give it up! Save yourself! Admit your crimes and set yourself free!

Please ASM for the sake of your own Mother.

CP
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 24, 2009, 21:43:

ASM, have you forgotten? Criticizing the American president == pure hatred of America, apple pie, motherhood, and All That Is Good.

As King Johnnie Walker said to the Spartans at the battle of Key West "Yabba-dabba-doo!"
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 25, 2009, 05:17:

I know I speak on behalf of leftist lunatics everywhere when I say-

Welcome back ASM!

I am glad to see you have recovered from that November aberration in America's bold march to freedom and the 1000 year Reich. I also understand why you should feel impelled to speak up for the religious right. Conning those suckers that there will be abortion reform and teaching of creationism, ummm... just real soon, is critical to your future electoral prospects. So you have to pretend to show some respect for them. They may be lunatics, but they are your lunatics.

Nonetheless I would counsel you to avoid debates about religion. It's not that you have no knowledge or understanding of the subject, I know you find that an advantage, after all a blank canvas gives you greater freedom to invent and create. It's more that you combine this with absolutely zero interest in the subject, leading to some rather flat and pedestrian posts. I enjoy flights of fancy into the crazy world of ASM much more when they combine with your genuine brain paralysing obsessions.

P.S. None of us here support Islamists, or terrorism. Islamists no more represent the religion of Islam, than Jehovah's Witnesses represent Christianity. Just an incy little reminder, as your circuits seem to find those pieces of information hard to retain.
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on March 25, 2009, 06:19:

quote:Originally posted by geekygoddess: Holy Crap!!! He's back!!!

quote:Originally posted by ASM65816:No it won't.

Finally ASM got something right... it's really not.

quote:Originally posted by Callipygous: First although there are a fair number of uncompromising rational atheists like yourself fs, they are not I think the majority, and I don't think they ever will be. The religious impulse is in my opinion a deep thing in human nature. Most people I believe want to be part of something bigger than their petty lives.

As that Bob Dylan song puts it, "You've got to serve somebody". I don't know much about other religions, but Christianity is not something you do alone in your room with a book, it's about how you connect with society and the wider world and your church is a channel for that as well as a source of spiritual fuel and comfort for you. So if you are a Christian you will most probably feel the need for a church to connect with.

Now when people don't channel their religious impulse through a mainstream religion, it generally emerges in other more insidious and damaging forms, whether its the intolerance and rejection of reason of Christian fundamentalist churches, or even worse as you head into paranoid hate filled worlds of cults run by megalomaniacs such as the Moonies or Scientology. You could argue too that this misdirected religious impulse is what fuels utopian political movements of the extreme right or left, whether the Marxists with their vision of a socialist millennium, or the extreme right Republicans with their vision of spreading democracy and liberty around the globe.

No church is perfect. They are run by fallible human beings, as much susceptible to the corrupting effects of power and pride as the rest of us, but those dull middle of the road churches are so much better than the alternatives. It is therefore sad that so many people see hem as irrelevant, as I don't believe that religious impulse is fading.

And to answer the question posed by the thread, yes the religious right has done at least as much damage to the Christian religion as it has to politics, and that is a serious thing.

One of the main points of religion, historically, was explaining how the universe works and the occurrence of natural phenomena. It's already obsolete in that area, thanks to science.

Currently religion does still serve social needs, like finding community and a larger purpose, but iincreasingly there are other avenues than religion to fulfill them. Not just cults, but organizations and groups like Greenpeace or Amnesty International or even the Republican Party. The growth of those kinds of large, secular organizations is relatively recent in human societies, and like you pointed out, people do attach the same kind of dogmatic adherence to their principles and aims as they do religion.

But I don't think that there is an innate religious impulse in people. I think that it's largely social and due to upbringing. I think that the decrease in self-identifying Christians will perpetuate itself. Many people are just too busy, these days, to keep up with religion on top of working full-time and raising a family and keeping up with their other responsibilities.As those children are raised in an areligious atmosphere, it naturally becomes less important to them.

To me, that seems like the reason the middle of the road churches are the ones losing membership. It it were just people losing their taste for fundamentalism, the extreme churches would lose the followers and they'd wash up in the more relaxed middle.

Unfortunately, I think you're right about people channeling their uglier impulses to control into other causes. (Just because someone isn't particularly religious doesn't necessarily make them tolerant or fair or open-minded.)
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on March 25, 2009, 07:17:

quote:Originally posted by The Famous Druid: As King Johnnie Walker said to the Spartans at the battle of Key West "Yabba-dabba-doo!"

Oh, how I miss those. Posted by angryjungman (Member # 2434) on March 25, 2009, 07:27:

quote:Originally posted by Callipygous:No church is perfect. They are run by fallible human beings, as much susceptible to the corrupting effects of power and pride as the rest of us,

Ahh, but you forget that the Pope is infallible according to Vatican I. Of course, it's a limited infallibility....
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 25, 2009, 11:10:

quote:Originally posted by angryjungman:Ahh, but you forget that the Pope is infallible

Can we put him in charge of the banks for a while?
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 25, 2009, 19:43:

quote: Originally posted by Callipygous:Nonetheless I would counsel you to avoid debates about religion.... I enjoy flights of fancy into the crazy world of _____ much more when .....

Originally posted by Colonel Panic:That's when all the demonic forces of the right wing will reveal themselves as agents of darkness by all looking exactly like Dick Cheney or Rush Limbaugh.

I figure there is only so much of the Lord's name the right can take in vain before the whole corrupt foundation of fundamentalist religion reveals itself as a hiding place for Satan himself.

Callipygous, do you really buy into Colonel Panic's "views" as knowledgeable or rational?

More to the point, are you simply a hypocrite that takes comfort in leftist rants, while despising anyone who disputes their beliefs?

quote: Originally posted by Colonel Panic:Indeed the entire "Stars and Bars" Southern ethic to which you subscribe is failure driven. And as such it is a traitor belief. As a traitor to America and its Constitution, you have disgraced the constitution with torture and murder.

Ok ... let's see how "the South" is to blame:

Wall Street, located in New York: Apparently home to insider trading, outrageous bonuses for failure, and so on.... FYI: NEW YORK IS NOT IN "THE SOUTH"

Washington, D.C.: Home to multitudes of politicians whose reelection coffers are stuffed by the lobbyists for "special interests." Didn't Obama (from Chicago) promise to put a stop to earmarks? Nonetheless, those politicians still ran more than 8000 earmarks past him. FYI: D.C. IS NOT IN "THE SOUTH"

California: Home to Herbert and Marion Sandler who sold the (essentially) worthless Golden West Financial to Wachovia bank for $24 billion, causing its "collapse." FYI: CALIFORNIA IS NOT IN "THE SOUTH"

If Colonel Panic's psychotic and delusional rants about "the South" were remotely accurate, "Blacks" and "non-Christians" would be extinct in a dozen US states.

Maybe "the South" did it ... How, you say?

quote: Mr. Conspiracy: Well, son, it's all about Alien Mind Control Rays. That story about Area-51 in the desert, all a hoax. Sheeut, the real Area-51 is in Carnesville, Georgia. We been makin' big-headed grey aliens squeal like pigs as long as NASCAR's been racin' cars. Yup, we control the politicians, the bankers, TV ... and the price of oil.

CP
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 25, 2009, 21:27:

ASM, please feel free to post here, and other internet forums, as often as you like.

The voting public have short memories, they need people like you to remind them what a pack of loonies the Republicans have become.

quote:Originally posted by ASM65816:FYI: CALIFORNIA IS NOT IN "THE SOUTH"

/me looks at a map./me laughs out loud.

As J.K.Rowling said to Mother Theresa after inventing the whoopie cushion, "♪I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok♫"
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 26, 2009, 22:35:

Part I: An Explanation for Christian Numbers in Decline

quote: Originally posted by Colonel Panic:I have long believed that when Christ returns it will be the ... the religious right who will attempt to nail the Lord to a cross a second time.

... the whole corrupt foundation of fundamentalist religion ... a hiding place for Satan himself ... your lord, god Rush Limbaugh ... you have betrayed Christ just as Judas did ....

Simple explanation: Christians are "in decline" because they are constantly attacked.

Generally speaking, people don't like being harassed and slandered. Second, there are two basic responses to being attacked: fight, or run.

Colonel Panic has been a good example of the leftist hate and attacks founded on delusional paranoia which are directed at Christians on a (near) daily basis. However, Christians don't really "fight back" -- you generally won't see Christians marching around with "Death to Those Who Insult Jesus" signs.

Given the statements above, and the fact that Rush Limbaugh and conservatives don't spend much time attacking Christians, it's the leftists (supported by liberal media) that make people decide not to "stand with the church and be crucified" when "safety" can be gained by running away.

You might be tempted to say "if that's true then attacks on Islam should cause a decline in their religion" (and be wrong). Jihad is not about "running away," and the clerics in places like Iran and Afghanistan make it clear that "apostasy" and "blasphemy" (like in cartoons) will be met with (deadly) violence.

Part II: Some People See Beheadings, Leftists See Rainbows and Unicorns

quote: March 25, 2009, 05:17P.S. None of us here support Islamists, or terrorism. Islamists no more represent the religion of Islam, than Jehovah's Witnesses represent Christianity.

"You people" have made it ABUNDANTLY Clear that the "Religious Right" (plus the Pope) give you more than enough "authority" to judge "Christianity." Maybe you believe a nation of Atheists (possessing a sizable army) when attacked and attacked and attacked ... would never spill the blood of their enemies by war in retaliation. However, that would be a "freakin' stupid" belief.

Note: Given a society with diversity of ethnic groups, diversity of religious beliefs, range of education/economic status, and a near even split on political orientation -- "pure" and unchanging subcultures are less likely as the result of a "melting pot" effect.

Here's a rebuttal to "they don't represent Islam":

Thesis: Common Behavior by Three Different Ethnic Groups with One Common Religion Indicates Influence of Religion

Group 1: "Arabs" (Saudi Arabia) Sample Size 28 million -- 100% Muslim

Group 2: "Persians" (Iran) Sample Size 66 million -- 98% Muslim

Group 3: "Pashtun" (Afghanistan) Sample Size 33 million -- 99% Muslim

Common behavior: Claim that apostasy and expressing disagreement with Islamic doctrine are punishable by death. This claim is supported by the belief that Sharia (religious) law "justifies" (and demands) the behavior.

FYI: Execution is the ultimate censorship.

There's more, like the (socially accepted) brutality against women, but the observation above is enough to indicate that horrific atrocities and ignorance are promoted by Islamic doctrine.

I know the opposing argument: "That's only 125 million Muslims -- there's over a billion Muslims that don't insist on beheadings (as per Islamic law)."

Rebuttal: Muslims that follow secular law over Sharia law have been EXTREMELY Influenced by non-Muslim cultures. The presence of multinational corporations, financial institutions, and fashions (clothes) from around the world show the effects of secular influence (while religious influence may be reduced to cosmetic significance).

Finally, you seem proud that you don't "support Islamists or terrorism", but your apathy and indifference to murder for religious beliefs and power is appalling.
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 26, 2009, 23:37:

As Britney Spears said to Marie Antoinette at the opening of the United Nations in Prague in 1762, "Δx = vt + ½at²"

ASM65816 wrote:Simple explanation: Christians are "in decline" because they are constantly attacked.

Generally speaking, people don't like being harassed and slandered. Second, there are two basic responses to being attacked: fight, or run.

There's a flaw in the logic behind your argument: Nobody who turns away from Christianity because of attacks on their religious beliefs is going to adopt a belief system that invites far more attacks and discrimination.

there are states with laws that require anyone elected to a public office to believe in God. Politicians run ads claiming that their opponents are godless. Atheism is routinely used as an argument for denying child custody and adoptions. Atheists can be fired from their jobs for not believing in God and have no recourse.

The fact is that atheists are routinely discriminated against in this country and the majority of Christians believe that it's okay to do so. They have no problem with religion being legally protected and lack of religion being open to abuse and they are the majority, so the discrimination continues.

"You people" have made it ABUNDANTLY Clear that the "Religious Right" (plus the Pope) give you more than enough "authority" to judge "Christianity."

I'm pretty sure this is the most insane thing you've ever said even though I can't even begin to interpret what the hell you're trying to say.

Maybe you believe a nation of Atheists (possessing a sizable army) when attacked and attacked and attacked ... would never spill the blood of their enemies by war in retaliation.

No, but I'd bet my life on the fact that a nation of atheists will never start a war and slaughter thousands of people because they thought God wanted them to.

I know the opposing argument: "That's only 125 million Muslims -- there's over a billion Muslims that don't insist on beheadings (as per Islamic law)."

Rebuttal: Muslims that follow secular law over Sharia law have been EXTREMELY Influenced by non-Muslim cultures. The presence of multinational corporations, financial institutions, and fashions (clothes) from around the world show the effects of secular influence (while religious influence may be reduced to cosmetic significance).

So... you're saying that anyone who claims to be Muslim who doesn't support terrorism and Sharia law are, in fact, not Muslims.

While I completely and totally disagree with it, at least now I know how you rationalize your belief that all Muslims are terrorists.
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 27, 2009, 06:40:

ASM even by your own "special" standards, those last two posts reach new heights of eye popping, spittle flecked incoherence, not to mention plain loopiness. Lefties persecuting poor scaredicat Christians too scared to go to church? What are you smoking? I guess you must still be really upset by events since November. Perhaps you should calm down before posting more.
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 27, 2009, 10:15:

Recent scientific research found that conservatives are far more fearful than liberals. As an extreme conservative, ASM serves as an extreme example of that phenomenon.

It must be really awful spending your whole life in a state of panic the way ASM does, and we should all try our best to help relieve that fear. Personally, as a long time dentist waiting-room Readers Digest fan, I believe that laughter is the best medicine, so I respond to his panic-stricken rantings with mocking laughter.

quote: March 27, 2009, 06:20I'm pretty sure this is the most insane thing you've ever said.....

Maybe saying something else will make the matter clearer:

"Half" of the Democratic Party's 2008 campaign was based on (the propaganda of) "the Right-Wing Extremist Christian Theocracy is going to Destroy the World!!!!!!!!"

Pick a search engine and look for "American Theocracy", "Right-Wing Theocracy", or "Christian Theocracy" ... it's "all" fear-mongering propaganda for "the Left." Essentially all of the "critics" of "Right-Wing Christians" are COMPLETELY Silent on the atrocities of Islamic Theocracies.

So if you feel that "Liberals" (and Leftists) haven't been "judging" anyone, congratulations on being a world-class hypocrite (or fool).

quote: March 27, 2009, 06:20The fact is that atheists are routinely discriminated against in this country and the majority of Christians believe that it's okay to do so.

Where did you get these "facts"?

What is the source and stated percentage for this "Majority of Christians"? What percentage for what form of discrimination?

Look in mainstream media, Atheists are not news.

quote: Atheists can be fired from their jobs for not believing in God and have no recourse.

I just checked Google news for "atheist fired" ... A metal band called "Haste the Day" fired a member last year when he declared he was an atheist. At www.russiatoday.com, Vladislav Radchenko could get up to five years in jail if proven guilty of harassing religious students in his classroom.

Dude, I am not "feeling" your pain. "Ugly" people probably face a lot more discrimination than Atheists, but why isn't the ACLU doing more to "protect" ugly people.

quote: Original Text: So... you're saying that anyone who claims to be Muslim who doesn't support terrorism and Sharia law are, in fact, not Muslims.

Corrected by ASM: So... you're saying that anyone who claims to be Muslim who doesn't support Sharia law is, in fact, not Muslim.

Someone who claims to be Christian and does not "support" the Commandments against murder and stealing is not Christian. (I dare you to say something stupid like "you can be Christian and not believe in God, not believe Jesus existed, and not believe a single miracle has ever occurred." Better yet, tell me you accept Jesus Christ as your savior _because_ you're an Atheist.)

From all I've seen, the Islamic clerics for the Taliban and Wahabi accurately cite scripture from the Qu'ran (Koran) to support claims that Sharia law is the only acceptable law on earth.

Of course, some say they can point to scriptures in the Qu'ran (Koran) which contradict portions of Sharia law.... EXCELLENT! The Perfect Eternal Words of god (as given to the "messenger") look like symptoms of schizophrenia (or neurosis).

Go find some "Islamic Scholars" that say the Qu'ran (Koran) is PARTIALLY Divine ... (and if you do find them, I bet politics has a hand in it).
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 28, 2009, 16:19:

There you go again ASM, criticizing the USA and All That Is Good.You're such an America-hater.

As Barney Rubble said to Ferdinand Magellan at the coronation of Pope Marilyn IV, "America, love it or leave it".

<sings>Oh say can you see....</sings>
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 28, 2009, 16:55:

So ASM let me get this right. I have to choose between the religious right and the Taliban? I can't just say I don't believe that religion of any stripe should be intimately involved with politics, and even more so when it comes to intolerant fundamentalist religions of whatever flavour, Christian, Islamic, or any of the rest? Because that position is hypocritical? And you don't think that's a rather stupid argument?

It seems all we have to do in this thread, is poke you with a stick and you come out with posts that become more and more bizarre. Let me advise you once more - don't post on religion, it is too obvious that you have no understanding of it and no interest in it. When it comes to politics, economics, or glorious wonderful war, however bizarre and wrong your opinions, because those subjects interest you. you have at least thought about them. In this thread you are sounding like the online equivalent of a bag lady with Tourettes shouting at the passing traffic. It's embarrassing.
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on March 28, 2009, 18:43:

quote:Originally posted by ASM65816:Dude, I am not "feeling" your pain. "Ugly" people probably face a lot more discrimination than Atheists, but why isn't the ACLU doing more to "protect" ugly people.

Is this from personal experience?
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 28, 2009, 20:38:

quote: March 28, 2009 16:55Let me advise you once more - don't post on religion, it is too obvious that you have no understanding of it

Let me ask your opinion on the following:

quote: An Atheist philosopher states that contradiction can be used to logically prove an argument is false. He then selects passages from the Bible, and claims multiple cases where passage "A" contradicts passage "B." His conclusion is that the Bible is not the work of God because God would deliver a perfect (and logical) document.

If such an argument was presented to you, would you say "Yes, the Bible contradicts itself; therefore, Christianity is simply a human construct"?

From there, if you feel the Qu'ran (Koran) is perfect and without contradiction, go ahead and let your Atheist friends know how wrong they are.

(A "friendly" warning: if you do this, and repeatedly press the issue of the Koran's perfection, your friends may call you "brainwashed" and "delusional," and you will find yourself losing one or more friends.)

Conversely, if you feel a man will enter Heaven, saved by accepting Jesus Christ as an _Atheist_, then please post the theological explanation. (I've become really curious about it now, and please respond, even if it's only "I've seen that argument from a century ago.")
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 28, 2009, 20:58:

I gotta get me some of them drugs ASM's using.

Um, on second thought, maybe not.

As Vincent Vega said to Moses as they loaded 144 dancing virgins onto the Ark, "here's looking at you, kid."
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on March 29, 2009, 02:19:

I wish to pose a question. Is it Freedom of Religion or Freedom from Religion?

To me bombing a place of worship while services are in progress, is not very God like. Nor hating people because of their choice. From my studies all texts contain some errors, however they (THE TEXTS) should be taken as a whole, read the message.
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 29, 2009, 02:25:

ASM once again your post makes absolutely no sense to anyone but you.

This is beginning to resemble bear baiting rather too closely for comfort. I withdraw.
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on March 29, 2009, 07:25:

___________________ Fear, Fear. __ Maybe we should be afraid, but are we afraid for the right reason.

Small groups, of affected religions are nothing compared with this concerted effort by a Nation.
Posted by GrumpySteen (Member # 170) on March 29, 2009, 15:57:

ASM65816 wrote:I just checked Google news for "atheist fired" ... A metal band called "Haste the Day" fired a member last year when he declared he was an atheist. At www.russiatoday.com, Vladislav Radchenko could get up to five years in jail if proven guilty of harassing religious students in his classroom.

and you overlooked all this stuff that comes up on the first page of results:

You're such a fucking liar about everything.
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 29, 2009, 17:28:

Wow.

The state of Arkansas forbids atheists from working for the state civil service, or testifying as a witness in court.

Other states with similar provisions are Maryland, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Texas and Tennessee.
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 29, 2009, 18:17:

Just an observation about "Liberals":

quote: I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue. -- Bertrand Russell

Originally posted by Callipygous:... once again your post makes absolutely no sense ...

(paraphrased) Bertrand Russell was convinced that all religions are untrue. As a mathematician, he made logical arguments against religion. In fact, all arguments he made were logically sound (generally speaking).

I have the utmost confidence that if I replaced the word "religion" with the word "Islam" in an argument by Bertrand Russell, the immediate response from Callipygous would be "that makes no sense."

For example, if I ask Callipygous why Bertrand Russell's arguments against (all) religions do not apply to Islam, his response (if any) would be "that question makes no sense."

Being a "Liberal" seems to be a religion, "Liberals" consider their ideology as "the only thing that makes sense" while they find all other concepts to be incomprehensible or irrelevant. (FYI: I could reference all my arguments, formatted like -- "I make this argument because it is the same argument made by Epicurus in 300 BC" or "I make this argument because it was presented in Bertrand Russell's essay on Atheism." However, you would be incapable of understanding the original philosophers anyway, so providing references would just make my posts longer, nothing more.)

EDIT (rebuttals):

quote: Originally posted by GrumpySteen:ASM65816 wrote:I just checked Google news for "atheist fired"

GrumpySteen:You're such a fucking liar about everything.

What part of "News" do you not understand?

I checked "News" -- that is a FACT.

Now, since you're unaware about some aspects of reality, especially regarding the corporate world -- IF YOU PROFESS YOUR RELIGION (Christian or otherwise) INSTEAD OF "DOING YOUR JOB," YOU WILL BE FIRED.

You seem like a nice anarchist ... try the following every time your boss asks you to do something: Say "I'm saved by the grace of Jesus!" When he fires you for not doing your job, call the ACLU and sue for "Discrimination against your Christian Beliefs."

quote: Originally posted by TFD:<article link>

From the article:Section 1 of the 1874 Arkansas Constitution states <snip> ....... The U.S. Supreme Court ruled all such state provisions unconstitutional and unenforceable in a 1961 ruling....

"UNENFORCEABLE" means no Atheist will be "oppressed" in ANY of the states you mentioned. You are fear-mongering with a story about nonexistent discrimination. (But hey, that's popular with the Liberal crowd.)
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on March 29, 2009, 18:20:

quote:Originally posted by ASM65816:

quote: March 28, 2009 16:55Let me advise you once more - don't post on religion, it is too obvious that you have no understanding of it

Let me ask your opinion on the following:

quote: An Atheist philosopher states that contradiction can be used to logically prove an argument is false. He then selects passages from the Bible, and claims multiple cases where passage "A" contradicts passage "B." His conclusion is that the Bible is not the work of God because God would deliver a perfect (and logical) document.

If such an argument was presented to you, would you say "Yes, the Bible contradicts itself; therefore, Christianity is simply a human construct"?

From there, if you feel the Qu'ran (Koran) is perfect and without contradiction, go ahead and let your Atheist friends know how wrong they are.

(A "friendly" warning: if you do this, and repeatedly press the issue of the Koran's perfection, your friends may call you "brainwashed" and "delusional," and you will find yourself losing one or more friends.)

Conversely, if you feel a man will enter Heaven, saved by accepting Jesus Christ as an _Atheist_, then please post the theological explanation. (I've become really curious about it now, and please respond, even if it's only "I've seen that argument from a century ago.")

What. The. Fuck?

I divided by zero trying to find anything resembling a point or argument or even meaning in that post. ASM, please see a doctor. Your brain is not working. Either that or you're a broken AI and your programmers need to do some debugging in the religion module.
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 29, 2009, 18:42:

quote: March 29, 2009, 18:20What. The. F___? ...... Either that or you're a broken AI and your programmers need to do some debugging in the religion module.

<sigh> ... Go to Google ... type in "contradictions in the bible" ... search, and you'll probably get a million hits.

You can say "contradictions don't prove anything"; however, they are used in logical proofs.

Question presented:

quote: If such an argument was presented to you, would you say "Yes, the Bible contradicts itself; therefore, Christianity is simply a human construct"?

You can say that these "contradiction" arguments are simply anti-Christian harassment, and I will gladly listen to that perspective.

If you do accept the "contradiction" arguments, it would be hypocrisy to insist that the same method of "proof" cannot be used for any other religion. At the minimum, contradictions indicate flaws, and the most likely source of flaws is human action.
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 29, 2009, 18:55:

As Saint Hunter S Thompson said to Pope Britney XXI at the opening of the Vatican in Tibet, "WTF???"

btw - I searched Google news for "contradictions in the bible", 126 hits, but that's near enough to a million for some.

btw2 - could this mob be the inspiration for some of ASM's incoherent rants?
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 29, 2009, 19:18:

quote: Originally posted by TFD:btw - I searched Google news for "contradictions in the bible", 126 hits, but that's near enough to a million for some.

<sigh> Ok ... just in case anyone else shares TFD's "third-grade" reading comprehension, "Google" refers to the main search page, not "Google News" or "Google Maps" and so on. Do not use quotes when entering the text for searching.
Posted by GrumpySteen (Member # 170) on March 29, 2009, 19:32:

ASM65816 wrote:Now, since you're unaware about some aspects of reality, especially regarding the corporate world -- IF YOU PROFESS YOUR RELIGION (Christian or otherwise) INSTEAD OF "DOING YOUR JOB," YOU WILL BE FIRED.

You seem like a nice anarchist ... try the following every time your boss asks you to do something: Say "I'm saved by the grace of Jesus!" When he fires you for not doing your job, call the ACLU and sue for "Discrimination against your Christian Beliefs."

Can't be true. I just searched Google News for "Christian fired" and there are absolutely no relevant stories. Christians are, obviously, exempt from ever being fired for anything they do.

Now, I admit that searched no other sites whatsover, but any evidence you post from anywhere else to the contrary will be ignored because I'm following ASM's rules of debate.

In similar vein, I checked between my couch cushions and found no stories about anyone dying... ever. We're all immortal! Bet you guys didn't know that!
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 29, 2009, 19:34:

ASM obviously need it explained, so...I was taking the piss, sending up your use of Google News to find very few hits when it suits you.And I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you.

quote:Originally posted by ASM65816:try the following every time your boss asks you to do something: Say "I'm saved by the grace of Jesus!" When he fires you for not doing your job

Sounds like the voice of experience.Is that how you got fired from the army?

As Vasco de Gama said to Captain Cook while they climbed Mount Improbable, "My dog has no nose"
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on March 29, 2009, 20:23:

Hmm...I had done my best at ignoring this thread until a more recent comment caught my eyes in the Active Topics. As such, I've skimmed this, and did a double-take at what Xanthine WTFed at...and must also be the bearer of bad news to Steen. Steen: In your very own quote, he said 'google news' - if you check that, it's the ~5th hit. Personally, I'm more amused and saddened by the story about a Walmart atheist being fired for refusing to dress up as Santa. (In Steen's Google *Web* SERP.)
Posted by GrumpySteen (Member # 170) on March 29, 2009, 23:25:

dragonman97:Don't be obtuse and don't pretend you're as stupid as ASM.

My point was that he chose a single search on one source which does not return any results, then used that specific instance to support his view that atheists are not discriminated against. It isn't a huge leap to use Google to search the web when news.google.com doesn't return the information that you've been told exists.

In the same spirit of stupidity, I presented my search between the cushions on my couch as proof of everyone's immortality. Not one news story came up about people dying, therefor people clearly do not die by ASM's standards.
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on March 30, 2009, 00:26:

That's the thing about ASM... he may be as crazy as a shithouse rat, but he's highly effective at achieving his goals, which are disrupting any actual discussion on a topic that he disagrees with and setting us against each other.

Just look at this thread... the only topic of discussion now is ASM. Not the changing state of religion in America, not the causes... just ASM. Calling ASM names, using ASM as an excuse to show off how smart we all are to the people that already agree with us, and generally contributing to the noise rather than the signal. And then we get so wound up in an I'm-right-you're-wrong intellectual attack mode that we do things like assume anyone questioning us must be either deliberately obtuse or stupid, because it couldn't be an actual misunderstanding of the intent of a message. (Sorry Steen and DM, I'm just using you as the lastest example, but it's happened plenty of times before. And I was confused by the Google vs. Google news thing myself, since I tend not to pay much attention to anything ASM says.)

ASM has been trolling here for how many years? Why are we still feeding him?

Next time he pops up, could we all please just continue the discussion around him, the same way we step around dog shit on the sidewalk and continue on, rather than coming to a screeching halt and spending the next three hours alternately yelling at it for being shit and at other passers by for any imagined or assumed support of the shit?

I agree with Calli, it's a bit like bear-baiting, but it's also more than a little sick how, when ASM doesn't present enough of a challenge (and seriously, when has ASM ever presented an argument that was challenging for anyone with an IQ over 65?), we turn nasty to each other.

We all like to think that we're pretty smart here. So why do we let ASM continue to manipulate us?
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on March 30, 2009, 01:07:

quote: Originally posted by fs:We all like to think that we're pretty smart here.

In that case, you can explain whether or not Bertrand Russell's argument "religion is untrue" and "does harm" also applies to Islam.

You also have the "right to remain silent." (Feel free to do so.... Wait a minute, aren't you one of the atheists?)

quote: Originally posted by GrumpySteen:Can't be true. I just searched Google News for "Christian fired" and there are absolutely no relevant stories. Christians are, obviously, exempt from ever being fired for anything they do.

Fine. Explicitly state your conclusions about the "News":

The news covers everything, no matter how trivial, mundane, boring, and irrelevant it may be.

- or -

Anything the news does not report is because ultra-secret conspiracy societies cover it up.

<sarcasm> Great observation, Christian unemployment must be 0.0 percent.

While we're at it, I just urinated ........ if you can't find that in the "news" does that mean it didn't happen (or does it mean the world has "a million more important issues" at hand)?

Here's something ... maybe every day thousands of Atheists are carved up in human sacrifice to call forth the Elder God of Aphoom-Zhah. Want to explain why that's not news?

PS: My dictionary just broke ... could you be a dear and look up the definition for "F_cking Irrelevant"?

quote: ... people clearly do not die by ASM's standards.

Or maybe things that are mundane or irrelevant are not "news." Or maybe some people are immortal, and there's a conspiracy hiding it all.
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on March 30, 2009, 01:59:

_________________ TheMoMan Here __ Some people of faith become so RABID about their faith that they turn non-believers away.

What else is there to discus?
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 30, 2009, 04:05:

Good points fs, but on this topic ASM is something really quite special. He has no idea what he is arguing for, on the one hand he feels impelled to defend the religious right, on the other he is an atheist himself who clearly thinks Christianity rather silly. So this has raised his natural incoherence and inconsistency into previously unexplored territory.

One only hopes that his internal contradictions are mirrored in the Republican Party itself, and that the constituent parts of the axis of evil, the movement conservatives and the religious right fall apart.
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on March 30, 2009, 05:51:

quote:Originally posted by Callipygous:One only hopes that his internal contradictions are mirrored in the Republican Party itself, and that the constituent parts of the axis of evil, the movement conservatives and the religious right fall apart.

I don't think that they'll fall apart entirely, but I do think that they are going to continue to lose influence. Right now, I think there's a hole in the available options for the economic conservatives that traditionally associated with the Republicans. I think that if the Republicans continue catering to the extremism of the religious right, eventually those middle-of-the-road Republicans are going to go over to the Democrats because they'll be tired of being left out in the cold by a party that no longer serves their interests. Right now is an ideal time for a split in the Republican party, but we're too locked into the idea of a two-party system for that to happen.

I hate the whole two-party system. I hate how it encourages the black and white with-us-or-against-us mentality, and takes to absurd extremes the idea that if one party supports something the other must, by default, oppose it.
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on March 30, 2009, 11:03:

quote:Originally posted by fs:Right now, I think there's a hole in the available options for the economic conservatives that traditionally associated with the Republicans. I think that if the Republicans continue catering to the extremism of the religious right, eventually those middle-of-the-road Republicans are going to go over to the Democrats because they'll be tired of being left out in the cold by a party that no longer serves their interests.

I don't think the economic conservatives are the ones most likely to desert the Republicans, (it's not too hard to come up with a platform that will keep them happy while placating the bible-nutters), I think it's the Freedom Conservatives (aka Libertarian Republicans).

For years, the Republicans have claimed to be the party of individual freedom, but in reality they've been pandering to the religious right's fascination with other people's bedrooms, bookshelves, TV screens, and hospital rooms. Eventually, it's the Freedom Conservatives who will realize that the Democrats are the party most likely to leave them alone to live their own lives.
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on March 30, 2009, 14:36:

On the other hand the religious right have plenty to be dissatisfied with. All their hot button issues are electoral poison, particularly with younger voters. Just consider the fallout from Proposition 8. They must realise sooner or later that while they may be tossed the occasional bone to keep their support, the Republican Party will just only pay them lip service, and will never, for example, drive forward significant abortion law "reform".
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on March 31, 2009, 01:49:

The thing about the religious right, though, is while the rank and file tend to be convinced of their own importance, at the higher echelons, most of the people (who may or may not actually believe what they promote) recognize that by themselves with their platform of Christian zealotry, they'll be just as marginal an influence on American politics as, say, the Green Party. In order to maintain any hope of actual power, they need to hold onto a major party.

The thing about economic conservatives is that the Republican party currently doesn't serve their needs at all, and they used to be the prime constituents. There are plenty of Republicans that are unhappy with the direction Republican leadership took the country, too. That's partly, I think, why Sarah Palin was such a poor choice of running mate for McCain. The Republicans were never going to lose the vote of the religious right. The religious right is smart enough to know that a non-Republican non-Democrat candidate doesn't stand a chance, and they sure as hell weren't going to vote Democrat. All it did was alienate the Republicans that don't feel the aim of their party should be morality legislation.