EEK! There's a woman in my room!
- page 11

Since the "man in my room" thread got closed, I thought I would try a different track. I want to focus on something a little different. :idea:
We know the emotional responses we got to the idea... Read More

I am sorry to hear what you went through. That was totally inappropriate and I would like to know if you have taken any kind of actions against that nurse who caused you to have both physical and emotional trauma??

Here, here. Unbelievably cruel & uncalled for.
I really can't get over that, esp. with the complications & grief it has caused you.
I certainly hope the woman didn't get away with it.
I didn't get to read the entire thread to see how that turned out, but I did see the news on page 12, and congratulations to the OP. I'm sorry it's been such a struggle. Much love to you & your new family. :redpinkhe That's wonderful.

Apr 21, '10

CaDad:
Absolutely valid points. However, I believe dialog is not only helpful here but moreover, crucial. We need to find a way to get caregivers and potential patients talking. Too many people are avoiding care for reasons that could be easily mitigated. So......... How can patients and caregivers work with each other to respectfully accomplish expectations?

Apr 21, '10

Unfortunately I was taught to flick an erection when I was studying in 1990! I actually thought the trainer was joking and never took it on board. In response to a comment that some patients state their wives will take care of that part of things, I must admit whenever a family member, be it wife or daughter has offered to help me with hygiene care I have always steadfastly refused. In my opinion their place is as a wife and daughter, not a caregiver. That is my job. It is far less personal for a stranger such as myself, to do the care in a professional, no nonsense manner. I couldn't and refuse to imagine doing that sort of thing for my dad. I did offer to help my father-in-law when he was ill but he refused and I was glad he did!! My husband, that's different I guess. I would happily do all the care needed to make him comfortable. It's just a personal opinion, but at work, the point is that people do have their own personal opinions, and as such I respond individually, but always give them the choice. They are always the boss in my opinion!!!

Apr 21, '10

agencyangel:

I'm a little confused. You say " In response to a comment that some patients state their wives will take care of that part of things, I must admit whenever a family member, be it wife or daughter has offered to help me with hygiene care I have always steadfastly refused. In my opinion their place is as a wife and daughter, not a caregiver."
And then you say "My husband, that's different I guess. I would happily do all the care needed to make him comfortable. It's just a personal opinion, but at work, the point is that people do have their own personal opinions, and as such I respond individually, but always give them the choice. They are always the boss in my opinion!!!"

So...you say they are the boss, but you refuse to let their wives do personal care? If the male patient is uncomfortable exposing himself to you, then why would you say no to a caring wife? Part of the problem here is that not letting people have some control of their own body takes humanity away. Do you not like to control who intimatley touches you?

Apr 21, '10

I will let a patient or family member care for their hygiene needs if that is what is desired by both parties. When my dad was recently hospitalized I was more than willing to help with his repositioning and bed baths and the like. I know he would have never let me if he was fully cognizant, but it was something I felt like I could do to help him while otherwise feeling generally helpless, which I am sure if how most of our patients and their families feel.

I've never heard of flicking or in any other way trying to physical dissuade an erection. If its something that is going to interfere with a procedure, ie a catheter insertion, I simply say "I'll be back in a few minutes". If its something like a bed bath, I just finish the area I'm working on as quickly as possible cover them and state the same thing.

ETA: I have never had a male patient refuse me caring for them, but I have helped our male nurses when they had females ask if another female could do things, usually its inserting a foley or removing vag packing.

Apr 21, '10

"I have never had a male patient refuse me caring for them..." Whenever I read a statement like that, I always wonder about its interpretation. I certainly mean no discrespect here -- just wondering. Does silence equal consent? Does complience represent consent? Just because somebody is not comfortable opening up a sensitive, possible embarrassing discussion, doesn't mean that person is comfortable, even comfortable protesting. Until caregivers sytematically ask how patients feel about opposite gender imtimate care -- they'll never really know how patients feel. You can assume and assume all you want. For the statement above, I interpret its meaning as this: "A male patient has never refused my intimate care. Therefore, for all those patients, it didn't matter one way or another whether a male or female was doing the job. Furthermore, that's how most men feel about this issue. Thus, why bother asking -- if that's how most men feel, then we can just go ahead without asking. If a patient want's same gender care, they'll ask for it." Many patients will not speak up. Silence doesn't mean consent. I've had people who didn't care one way or another about opposite gender intimate care, who were asked, say that, although it didn't matter to them, they appreciated being asked. They felt more respected.

Apr 22, '10

That's a fair point. You certainly have got me thinking. I have in the past, when it was how the couple worked, provided a loving wife with all the requirements to enable her to do the care herself. WHat I meant though was in the instance where family have offered to toilet, change a family member because they can see I am busy (which happens a lot as I work in A&E) and I have sensed that they were being polite then I have said no, you be the daughter, wife, etc and I'll be the nurse! I'm not defending myself to the hilt though - I must admit I have not always given people a choice of male or female - that would be impossible! We just cannot work like that in our field as we have a small number of males in nursing generally. I am talking as an A&E nurse, it may be different on the wards. However, in the instance of catheterisation I have always offered a choice of male or female nurse. In that instance as it is so invasive I would grab a nurse from another department if I needed to!

Apr 24, '10

Agencyangel,

You wrote: "However, in the instance of catheterisation I have always offered a choice of male or female nurse. In that instance as it is so invasive I would grab a nurse from another department if I needed to!"

I think that is the very spirit of modesty consideration that exemplifies the type of nurse that should serve as the standard for all others. You offer the choice -- and that would go a long way in my book, were I your patient.

When a choice can't be offered due to staffing issues, then maybe just let the patient know beforeheand that while you would like to offer the choice, you can not. And, explain. This kind of consideration and concientousness is either there (in a person) or it isn't. It is hard to train into someone. That is why there are so many rules and regulations.

Re: the flicking: 1990! OMG!... Maybe I'm missing someting here, but what is the stated purpose and reason for needing to deflate an erection, immediately, ... for what purpose... to bathe? for catherization? How is one expected to know how hard to "flick?" and precisely where? If my son ever has to spend any length of time in a hospital, I think I will print this thread out and take it to the hospital. I will inform everyone that they will not, under any circumstances, be flicking my son's genitals.

Apr 25, '10

agencyangel:

"However, in the instance of catheterisation I have always offered a choice of male or female nurse. In that instance as it is so invasive I would grab a nurse from another department if I needed to!"

Thanx for the honest response. Consideration such as this with regards to modesty (especially for men) is truely rare! I am guessing (but could be wrong) that not alot of female caregivers share your humanitarian efforts.
If we had the opportunity to have this kind of open and honest dialog, resentment and misunderstanding might be worked on : between both caregiver and potential patient. So many men do not seek healthcare for these very reasons, and it is tragic that such a large gap is not important to ( some)providers.

Jun 29, '10

Hi you guys:
A few comments if AI may: First and foremost I am gratified that female nurses addressing male modesty and privacy issues is a huge statement on how things are changing and I for one am sincerely gratified and gratified on your taking positions that in all probability are not popular with voters in your profession. It does bring up the question on what your colleges feel about this discussion .
1-AgencyAngel: I am supprised when you state you have never had a male PT refuse care, and Advo-Kate2 is dead on, many females do not recognize the body language or" male speak" when it comes to this. For example, silence is a dead giveaway we are shocked and do not how to address the situation, without a choice we simply do not know we have one. Also joking or crude jokes is a very plain expression of just how uncomfortable we are in the situation. I might also add, I personally could not bear to have my daughter ( who is also a nurse) do personal care for me-I would die of embarrassment, and I would hope you would ask family members to perhaps leave while you are doing some of this, if your not-all I can say is , how would you feel being watched being bathed or cathed ?
I understand that male languaging or body language can be confusing but the none the less ,it is factual. I think if you verbalize something along this line, " I understand you may be uncomfortable or embarrassed about ................. a lot of men like their privacy, may I see if I can get a male nurse for you? Just trying to help here lol.
2-Advo-kate2, how utterly refreshing and shocking to see a female stand up for us males!!!!!!!! I can't tell you how much this is appreciated! There is a huge number of men and boys who will shun medical care because of this issue. I know it sounds ridiculous, but for men, it defines us and we make choices without discussion with the women in our lives. We just do not care to argue about our feeling or discuss them because we already know the majority of females think we have no modesty, or should not have any modesty ( where this comes from I will never understand) And it certainly does not help if we have no communication skills like women in voicing our discomfort or if you happen to experience the male exhibitionist either and think they are representative of us. All in all, PT care is complicated to say the least but it is gratifying to know progress is being made, this discussion is a prime example of that!!! I hope your attitudes carry over in your work place and others take not of them. The Pt/Nurse relationship is a symbiotic one, you cannot take the personal relationship out of the care.
ONE MOE THING!!!! FLicking? why I think I would hurt someone that did that to me lol-that would be simple assault pure and simple-that must be one of those rumors that will not die!
I am always surprised and delighted at Advo-kate2 deep and intellectual understanding on the subject and her uncanny ability to verbalize what some of us agr struggling to do, many many thanks!!!! have a wonderful 4th everyone and I for one am grateful to be able to be in these discussions.

Jul 3, '10

Very nice post from Cadad!

I agree that the mere fact that this is being discussed and considered to include a modesty consideration context on the double standard working against males, is a huge statement of progress. While I'm certain some nurses (female and male) likely read this stuff in here and just shake their head in disagreement, or even bewilderment, it is also clear that the issue is now worthy -- a lot of people have recognized that patient modesty consideration, generally, leaves a lot of room for improvement. And, such consideration and sensitivity improvements for male patients in particular is too often lacking. This is progress.

There was a day in our country's history when discussions about whether or not women should be given the right to vote seemed odd, out of place, unusual, and even blasphomous rheteric flying in the face of nature itself. Society evolves. The narrow, limited view males are seen with in terms of modesty and sensitivity will likely come to an end some day (hopefully soon). Their options for expressing hurt will include more than just silence and rage.

In the context of extending modesty consideration to male patients, let's not try to worry too much about reading boys and men -- their hidden messages, their body language, their anger, frustration and inappropriate responses to hurt feelings and hidden insecurities. As nurses delivering medical care, it's not necessary to get too hung up on trying to psychologically analyze patients behavior when deciding on how/what to do to protect modesty. Let's just talk to them. Let's just ask our patients questions: Would you prefer a male for this procedure? Would you prefer the Medical Rep leave the room before this procedure? Would you prefer your wife and family not be present? And, let's tell them what we are doing on these "intimate" procedures. Basically, treat all patients on the same standard you would treat the most modest and sensitive female patient you eve encountered. If you did that, everyone would likely feel much better about their care and consideration. Doing so, however, would not address issues like the female/male lopsided ratio. The liklihood of advocates being predominately female. etc. In the end, female nurses will always be caring for male patients on sensitive procedures in a much higher proportion than the reverse. It used to be said that male doctors were doing so on behalf of female patients -- not anymore.

I agree with CaDad on Advo-Kate -- Your female insight on male modesty, and your clear focus on a single, decent standard for everyone has been refreshing. You clearly understand this issue and have tapped in to some of the frustration and anger some males have been recognizing and beginning to express on this front.

In a hurry, heading out. Not checking spelling.. Sorry if I hacked up some words.

Jul 3, '10

Yes. Been there, experienced it, no permanent physical damage in my case.
Both as a child in the 70's at a Catholic hospital, and as an adult in an Army hospital in the 80's.

And as far as the military ensuring privacy goes... just about everyone got some vaccinations in a assembly line fashion co-ed group (roll up your sleeve) once they were enlisted.

When it came to pre-enlistment at MEPS, women always got private pelvic exams. We men got our blood draw, hernia and rectal exams standing in a nice big unclothed group 50 or more for however long it took to poke, prod and look at everyone. Nothing to hang onto or lean on except our own knees while we were turning left, bending over in front of the next guy's business and waiting for further violation.

Then, like now, guys may seem like we are immodest, but the truth is a lot of us are just plain numb now. We just learned to put up with the all the thoughtless crap that goes on because we are expected not to be weak.

Yes. Been there, experienced it, no permanent physical damage in my case.
Both as a child in the 70's at a Catholic hospital, and as an adult in an Army hospital in the 80's.

And as far as the military ensuring privacy goes... just about everyone got some vaccinations in a assembly line fashion co-ed group (roll up your sleeve) once they were enlisted.

When it came to pre-enlistment at MEPS, women always got private pelvic exams. We men got our blood draw, hernia and rectal exams standing in a nice big unclothed group 50 or more for however long it took to poke, prod and look at everyone. Nothing to hang onto or lean on except our own knees while we were turning left, bending over in front of the next guy's business and waiting for further violation.

Then, like now, guys may seem like we are immodest, but the truth is a lot of us are just plain numb now. We just learned to put up with the all the thoughtless crap that goes on because we are expected not to be weak.

Re: No physical damage: Are you referring to the flicking? If yes, what is its purpose?

Re: Modesty:

YES! Well Said! You wrote: "Then, like now, guys may seem like we are immodest, but the truth is a lot of us are just plain numb now. We just learned to put up with all the thoughtless crap that goes on because we are expected not be weak"

You are absolutely right..... "numb." It certainly seems that way. However, while we attempt to desensitize ourselves to this stuff, year after year, experience after experience, etc., somethign is going on we are not always aware of. We are internalizing our hurt. We are swallowing our pain. As males, our expression of outrage over this stuff is not an option. It is not permitted as it would contradict our image of strong (not weak). However, make no mistake about it. It comes out. It comes out in other ways. For some men it is silence, perceived unfeeling, and even detachment. Our wives wonde why we don't talk. Our wives wonder why we don't cry. This stuff isn't always just silly, insignificant experiences from our past.

The beauty of this forum is that we can talk about it and not risk our manliness -- after all it is just words in cyberspace. Ah... but the truth is here to see!