Hi can anyone help me with part numbers and info for what parts I need to change the reverse gear to a lower ratio and install an upgraded clutch into my 08 2.3 x250 (KIT B) i beleve. we have owned it for one year now and when returning home involves reversing up our drive to park , this has worn out the clutch, the milage is 18,000 I have contacted 2 main dealers and Fiat customer services and can not get any sense or info from them it is almost like they have never heard of this problem. I need to get it sorted as I dont think it would pull itself up our drive again. CAN ANYONE HELP AND POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
Thanks Dave

They have never heard of the problem? Sounds about right. Juddergate has been around for some considerable time and will be for some time to come. All Fiat garages are aware of the transmission problem and getting some to admit it wasn't easy. Look back at some of the previous blogs for some sound advice.

Thanks Rowland, i realise I am banging my head against a wall with Fiat but from reading there is a kit a lower ratio reverse and a HD clutch , I would like to pay to fit theese parts to fix my problem but no one I have spoken to at the dealers know of theese parts or kit does anyone know of a good dealer with the knowlage on this Thanks

Hi I am in the South West but would travel if there is someone with the tech knowledge to help, I have read the posts from around 2009 when so many owners were having problems, Has a gearbox and clutch fix ever happened for the 6 speed models around 2007 2008 ? Thanks

Hi can anyone help me with part numbers and info for what parts I need to change the reverse gear to a lower ratio and install an upgraded clutch into my 08 2.3 x250 (KIT B) i beleve. we have owned it for one year now and when returning home involves reversing up our drive to park , this has worn out the clutch, the milage is 18,000 I have contacted 2 main dealers and Fiat customer services and can not get any sense or info from them it is almost like they have never heard of this problem. I need to get it sorted as I dont think it would pull itself up our drive again. CAN ANYONE HELP AND POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
Thanks Dave

First question is it a 2.3 or 3 litre, there is no fix for the 3 litre plus it has a dual mass flywheel. I had mine changed in early 2009 at 2500 miles they did not change the clutch, that failed at 9,500 miles last year.

Hi can anyone help me with part numbers and info for what parts I need to change the reverse gear to a lower ratio and install an upgraded clutch into my 08 2.3 x250 (KIT B) i beleve. we have owned it for one year now and when returning home involves reversing up our drive to park , this has worn out the clutch, the milage is 18,000 I have contacted 2 main dealers and Fiat customer services and can not get any sense or info from them it is almost like they have never heard of this problem. I need to get it sorted as I dont think it would pull itself up our drive again. CAN ANYONE HELP AND POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
Thanks Dave

First question is it a 2.3 or 3 litre, there is no fix for the 3 litre plus it has a dual mass flywheel. I had mine changed in early 2009 at 2500 miles they did not change the clutch, that failed at 9,500 miles last year.

"... into my 08 2.3 x250 ..."

Dave J - 2013-05-18 10:10 AM

Hi I am in the South West but would travel if there is someone with the tech knowledge to help, I have read the posts from around 2009 when so many owners were having problems, Has a gearbox and clutch fix ever happened for the 6 speed models around 2007 2008 ? Thanks

My understanding is that, from some time in 2009, X250s with the 2.3litre motor gained as standard the modifications made to earlier vehicles that exhibited 'juddering in reverse' characteristics. Basically, any 2.3litre X250 built before the 2009 specification-change could suffer from 'juddering' and the gearbox/clutch modifications you are planning to have carried out on your 2008 model will equally apply to 2006 and 2007 2.3litre X250s. As Melvin says, no similar gearbox modifications have been made available for X250s with the 3.0litre motor.

When I bought my Autotrail Tracker in 07 I was torn between a used 06 model or the new one. I can't believe how fortunate I was to have decided on the used one as it has performed faultlessly in every respect. I subsequently followed the reverse gear/clutch saga with great interest and frankly I cannot understand how anybody that saw what went on could ever consider buying a Fiat based motorhome again. My next one will be a Merc.

When I bought my Autotrail Tracker in 07 I was torn between a used 06 model or the new one. I can't believe how fortunate I was to have decided on the used one as it has performed faultlessly in every respect. I subsequently followed the reverse gear/clutch saga with great interest and frankly I cannot understand how anybody that saw what went on could ever consider buying a Fiat based motorhome again. My next one will be a Merc.

All the base vehicles have weak points one way or another, Fiat gave way on the gearbox issue, earlier Fords and Vauxhall/Renault owners have not been as lucky with gearbox issues. On some models of Merc a duff injector could mean having to buy a whole new head, although they are not the only vehicle this applies to.

When I bought my Autotrail Tracker in 07 I was torn between a used 06 model or the new one. I can't believe how fortunate I was to have decided on the used one as it has performed faultlessly in every respect.

Good choice Mike Fiat and used.
Well; I have a PVC, bespoke, previously a double -glazing white van. Fiat accepted my warranty claim and I have a perfectly functioning Ducato X250 08Reg. Like many people who had the warranty work done I'm very pleased. You can buy mine confident that it's been fixed! so I disagree with your view. I've not driven a Transit a Merc or an IVECO, or a VW for that matter, but I think the Ducato is very nice to drive. Would I buy another Fiat? well I'm hoping to keep this van for at least another 6 years, so we'll see how satisfied I am then,
regards
alan b

Yes, to be honest I would have another Fiat and in fact I also run a Panda as my daily motor. BUT it took them so long to accept the problem and start putting things right it was a disgrace and it left me disgusted with them at the time.

I read somewhere the only proper fix is a new gearbox, because a lower ratio requires a bigger gearwheel that will not fit into the old gearbox casing. But I am no expert. I have a 2008 manufactured X2/50 panel van and didn't bother with the fix because I don't find the high reverse gear ratio a serious problem. I am delighted with the X2/50 overall.

When I bought my Autotrail Tracker in 07 I was torn between a used 06 model or the new one. I can't believe how fortunate I was to have decided on the used one as it has performed faultlessly in every respect.

Good choice Mike Fiat and used.
Well; I have a PVC, bespoke, previously a double -glazing white van. Fiat accepted my warranty claim and I have a perfectly functioning Ducato X250 08Reg. Like many people who had the warranty work done I'm very pleased. You can buy mine confident that it's been fixed! so I disagree with your view. I've not driven a Transit a Merc or an IVECO, or a VW for that matter, but I think the Ducato is very nice to drive. Would I buy another Fiat? well I'm hoping to keep this van for at least another 6 years, so we'll see how satisfied I am then,
regards
alan b

It's a much nicer drive then the Ford or earlier Ducatto that's for sure!

I got a PM from the original poster and have replied to him but thought that I should add my two penneth to the thread as well.

The prices that were posted by Lenny looked pretty good, so I checked them and most parts are now between 30 and 40% more expensive. There have been some general price increases but I suspect that these items were subsidised during the repair campaign and no longer are. You could be paying £500 plus VAT now for the parts and that is only the start of the problem.

Fiat did the repairs either during the warranty period or without customer contribution as a 'goodwill' excercise. There is no guarantee thereafter; unless within a short time something was found to have been faulty with that job.

I want to make it clear that I believe that Fiat should carry out the same work to absolutely ANY vehicle that was affected, no matter how old it is, if it is presented to a dealer with damage consistent with the problem, and has not previously been modified. If owners push hard enough with Fiat Customer Services; they may find that they will help. They may not, but it would be unreasonable to complain about Fiat without trying first.

Anyone that understands the nature of the problem and the internals of a gearbox will long before now have figured out that the modifications that were done to the gearboxes were a bit (or a lot) of a bodge and while the net result was mostly acceptable to owners it was not exactly good engineering and raised more that a few concerns and or eyebrows at the time.

With that in mind, I would advise against anyone having the 'official' modifications done to their own gearbox, at their own expense. If it does not work you will not get any warranty from Fiat because it was you that specified the work that was to be done, and not them or their dealers. If you find an independent workshop that is prepared to fit the parts for you they will not be able to guarantee it either. They will be able to see for themselves that it is not a good fix and will (if they know what they are doing)
recommend that other parts (at much greater cost) will be required to make it work properly. They will even try to find those correct parts and find them impossible to identify and will get no help with doing so from Fiat.

If you brought a vehicle to me that had a damaged gearbox I would replace the damaged parts only with OE items that are the same as those being removed or would strongly recommend a 'reconditioned' box from Fiat. These 'recon' units normally arrive as brand new ones with the recon part number stuck over the 'new' part number and cost about a third of the price. They are fully guaranteed by Fiat. Remember also that if the replacement box is fitted by a Fiat dealer and it fails you will get the labour for changing it again for free while your independent will get nothing from Fiat other than a replacement box and will either charge you for the job to be done again or will suffer great pain to help you with that cost. Changing the gearbox is a long and tedious job. We can do it in about 6 or 7 hours because we have done lots of them. Doing it twice would be heartbreaking!

DO NOT BUY a reconditioned gearbox from anywhere other than Fiat. Theirs will be to the later spec including other improved items that WILL NOT be present on anyone else's units. You may save some money but you will be starting off with the original; potentially flawed design.

The current Fiat parts disc contains part numbers for new and reconditioned units that cover 'before' and 'after' modifications but all supercede to the later spec. There are even specific part numbers for 'managing reconditioned vehicles', so Fiat will know exactly what you need based on your chassis number. Prices for reconditioned units are around £1900 to £2100 and new ones are around £4700 all plus VAT. REMEMBER! Reconditioned Fiat gearboxes are almost always actually brand new ones. You may get much more than you bargained for.

As an aside, I now see that there is a further modification or at least a new part number from mid 2010 so it seems that Euro 5 vehicles have an even further modified gearbox with which I would hope that the whole sorry issue would be finally put to bed. Before anyone asks; this box is not compatible with Euro 4 engines. I don't know why yet but it is not. I suspect it is a differential and therefore driveshaft issue.

As an aside, I now see that there is a further modification or at least a new part number from mid 2010 so it seems that Euro 5 vehicles have an even further modified gearbox with which I would hope that the whole sorry issue would be finally put to bed. Before anyone asks; this box is not compatible with Euro 4 engines. I don't know why yet but it is not. I suspect it is a differential and therefore driveshaft issue.

Nick

Should that read 2011? as ours came off the production line early 2011 and is a euro4.

BTW Nick, whats your view on changing clutch fluid every two years? I know most vehicles specify this, and in most cases it's unnecessary, but some vehicles its imperative it's done, not sure on the x2/50

As an aside, I now see that there is a further modification or at least a new part number from mid 2010 so it seems that Euro 5 vehicles have an even further modified gearbox with which I would hope that the whole sorry issue would be finally put to bed. Before anyone asks; this box is not compatible with Euro 4 engines. I don't know why yet but it is not. I suspect it is a differential and therefore driveshaft issue.

Nick

Should that read 2011? as ours came off the production line early 2011 and is a euro4.

BTW Nick, whats your view on changing clutch fluid every two years? I know most vehicles specify this, and in most cases it's unnecessary, but some vehicles its imperative it's done, not sure on the x2/50

Hi Colin,

Mmm. My brain was not fully engaged after writing so much! There is a late 2010 gearbox that seems to have no backward compatibility with earlier units so I assume that it was either made for the early Euro 5's (which appeared in some markets before they did in the UK) or there were some other modifications rolled out at that time that I am as yet unaware of. We too have some 2011 Euro 4's and so far any hydraulic issues that have needed gearbox removal have been done under warranty so I have not examined them myself. We should be doing this work ourselves in the coming months so I will know more.

As regards the clutch fluid; it is the same as the brake fluid so I suppose it should be changed or at least bled when the brake fluid is changed. We have never specifically set out to do so because with our vehicles and the mileages that they do we will normally not get to 3 years without a clutch, clutch hydraulics or brake issue that has necessitated replacing the fluid anyway!

I'm due a 2 year low mileage service (11000 miles), and have been told brake fluid and pollen filter, as well as oi change and filter, maybe air filter depending on what it looks like. As out of warranty now have tried to find somewhere cheaper but cant find anyone trustworthy, you find one, look for reviews and they are sharks OR if decent sounding cost a much as a dealer..so may as well stick with dealer. will look better when you sell it on as well I would think...

Yes. It is recommended that brake fluid be changed every 2 to 3 years by various suppliers and manufacturers.

What happens if you don't?

More often than not, not much but if the moisture that is absorbed congregates near to brake cylinders or calipers (and it does), there will be a greater risk of parts seizing and the fluid boiling. Boiling introduces air and that is an even bigger problem than water.

When you have boiled water mixing with brake fluid and air, all kinds of things can happen or not happen . We have worked on vehicles where we suspected that the fluid had never been changed and when bleeding new fluid through have found the liquid to be green in colour and very smelly. That indicates algae or other things actually growing in the pipes, and these are not much use for braking either.

If you have a vehicle such as a Fiat Ducato and do not change the brake fluid for a prolonged period I would expect a couple of seized calipers or cylinders plus some pretty harrowing non-braking adventures by about 6 years in to the experiment. You will eventually fail an MOT test if you survive that long.

My own advice is that 2 years is a bit obsessive (but with science supporting it). 3 years is probably prudent and 4 years a bit risky. 5 years is daft and 6 will be costly one way or the other.

In addition (and again, only my advice) if your vehicle spends long periods parked up you should have your brake caliper sliders and hand brake mechanisms removed and cleaned annually once it reaches MOT age. That is a pretty convenient time to be thinking about bleeding brakes too! Pull about 100ml of brake fluid at each corner each year and you are changing the whole lot every 3 years or so. Every third year, also bleed the clutch if it's hydraulic and Bob's your Mother's Brother.

I'm due a 2 year low mileage service (11000 miles), and have been told brake fluid and pollen filter, as well as oi change and filter, maybe air filter depending on what it looks like. As out of warranty now have tried to find somewhere cheaper but cant find anyone trustworthy, you find one, look for reviews and they are sharks OR if decent sounding cost a much as a dealer..so may as well stick with dealer. will look better when you sell it on as well I would think...

It's your money Eddie but I would not bother with the oil change. You have either semi or fully synthetic in there that is designed to last for 28,000 miles or more and you use it regularly with plenty of long runs. I doubt you have had to add more than 1 litre of oil along the way so if it was changed last year I would leave it alone.
Also, unless you have been travelling through very dusty places your pollen filter should be ok for about 3 years.
We don't change fuel filters any more until they have done 75,000 miles but would lower that to 25,000 if the vehicle was filling up in Europe regularly where the water content and other contaminants are less predictable.

Anyway; If there is any more it will have to wait until tomorrow folks. I am off to see Muse in Coventry shortly so am off!
Naughty or what?

PS
Just caught me!
Either draw a nice big red heart in the space provided and write "all systems and functions working within normal parameters" OR get someone that you trust like a BT workshop to do a PMI (Preventative Maintenance Inspection) and stamp your book stating 'inspection only.' This should cost no more than an hour's labour and checks everything.

I want to make it clear that I believe that Fiat should carry out the same work to absolutely ANY vehicle that was affected, no matter how old it is, if it is presented to a dealer with damage consistent with the problem, and has not previously been modified. If owners push hard enough with Fiat Customer Services; they may find that they will help. They may not, but it would be unreasonable to complain about Fiat without trying first.

Anyone that understands the nature of the problem and the internals of a gearbox will long before now have figured out that the modifications that were done to the gearboxes were a bit (or a lot) of a bodge and while the net result was mostly acceptable to owners it was not exactly good engineering and raised more that a few concerns and or eyebrows at the time.

Nick

Comprehensive and very welcome Nick;

I've never seen a breakdown of PVC to ALKO and other CB chassis motorhomes affected by the above problem, and I feel particularly sorry for anyone who does not have a "mainstream" converter to stick up for them. If a manufacturer/converter bought their unconverted PVC from Fiat then I would hope that they supported their customers in obtaining redress. Similarly, CB manufacturers should have fought their customers' corner. Manufacturers are the customer's first port of call after all.

I can understand that rectifying commercial vehicles on a huge scale would be ( or would have been) impractical, and I'm just guessing that any "white/silver/red/?? vanman", with a commercial van lease would have got a decent trade-in/replacement deal if they had had a problem that they found unacceptable.

I consider myself to have been lucky (notwithstanding Nick's comments regarding the soundness or otherwise of the engineering!), If there are ongoing issues with more recent vans, then I hope some of you slightly less than mainstream PVC fans will get the support you deserve, in the unfortunate event that you have a problem,
Happy vanning
alan b

I thought that the (very remote, but possible) water absorption risks associated with DOT3 and DOT4 generations of brake fluid had been irradicated with DOT5; as DOT5 specification brake fluid is non-hygroscopic.

Thus the possible problem of atmospheric moisture entering the master cylinder cap because the brake fluid "sucks it in" by attraction, have been removed for any vehicle using DOT5 brake or clutch fluid.

This change doesn't affect older MH's like mine, which chug along on DOT4 and whose systems must not use DOT 5, but on new/newish vans which do use DOT5 fluid is this not the case?

I thought that the (very remote, but possible) water absorption risks associated with DOT3 and DOT4 generations of brake fluid had been irradicated with DOT5; as DOT5 specification brake fluid is non-hygroscopic.

Thus the possible problem of atmospheric moisture entering the master cylinder cap because the brake fluid "sucks it in" by attraction, have been removed for any vehicle using DOT5 brake or clutch fluid,

This change doesn't affect older MH's like mine, which chug along on DOT4 and whose systems must not use DOT 5, but on new/newish vans which do use DOT5 fluid is this not the case?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
There is dot5 and dot5.1, these are totaly different fluids, whey the hell they where numbered like that god knows.
dot5 is silicon and very few vehicles use this, it is non hydroscopic.
dot5.1 is similier to dot3 and 4, and is the latest version of them, it is still hydroscopic although my tests show it may be slightly less than dot3 and 4.
BTW I have had to do extensive long term tests on all these fluids for aircraft use, whilst my test where for effects on differing seals water absorption was a factor.