It's unbelievably difficult to build through first round picks, unless your in the top 5 consistently. Edmonton and Pittsburgh have been able to do it and the jury is still out on Edmonton. I think the Wings are fine. Had the puck not struck the post twice we aren't even posting about this. Our farm system btw is pretty loaded but most of the good stuff is in junior. The Wings do not play 19 year olds.

1. In the thousands of threads that people make about trades (all fantasy i know) the number 1 comeback is: "why would anyone want our junk". Ok, why would we want to keep it? If you can move a guy that is over 30 for a mid round pick, you do it. A 4th rounder for samualsson? hell yes!

2. Every team goes through peaks and valleys. We have been riding high for 20 years. We will be in a valley for the next 3-5 years depending on future moves. Z-33 and dat-35 are not going to get better over the next 3-5 years. their numbers have been dropping for 5 years and will continue to do so. Every year their numbers go down 4-7 points. Both were once good for 90 points per year, now they are in the 70 point range going going south. Where will they be 3-5 years from now when they are 40 or close to it? What value will they have then? Do any players take cuts in their salaries?

3. Those that like to through out "panic" are not reading or understanding what I wrote. I clearly said we will be fighting for the PO's-7th, 8th, or 9th, thus getting a pick around 15th in the upcoming draft. That isn't panic, that is spot on with what the vast majority of fans and media talking heads expect from the RW this year. But and this is key, we will only get worse over the next few years. guys over 30 don't get better. All of our "stars" are over 30, and there is no future stars in the system that will be ready over the next 2-3 seasons.

4. To get something of value, you have to give something of value. No this isn't a video game-which I don't play or even own a game system. To old for that myself. So if we want to trade for some young prospect that could be a future star, we have to have value to get him. For example-only and example so chill out, if we want a guy like Kreider it will take a datsyuk plus to get him. But if that deal was possible, we need to do it. if we don't and wait to build only through the draft, we are heading for several seasons of only 20 wins. Those of us that followed the RW's in the late 70's and early 80's remeber those wonderfull times. Yuck!

5. Those that try to defend franzen are lost. yes he can score 25-35 goals. But that is akin to when Rob deer played for the Tigers. yes he hit 30 HR per year, but he also struckout 200+ times per year, played crappy D, and hit below the mendoza line. One stat does not a good player make. Worse part is of the 30 franzen can score, 15 will come during a 20 game stretch when he is on fire and motivated.

I understand the thought process, it's a normal approach to start thinking long and hard about parting ways with some vetern players while they still have some trade value, BUT.....that hasn't be the Wings' style the past 20 years and I think that style has a large part in explaining why the team has been competitive and been able to keep players happy and attract new players. They are very loyal to their players and it has paid off. It is more difficult to keep up in a cap world though because even if everyone wants to come, you can't sign them all.

We'll see what happens the rest of the year, I'm not focusing too much on 3 games, but I must say I was a little worried coming into the year, nothing has changed that yet.

I understand the thought process, it's a normal approach to start thinking long and hard about parting ways with some vetern players while they still have some trade value, BUT.....that hasn't be the Wings' style the past 20 years and I think that style has a large part in explaining why the team has been competitive and been able to keep players happy and attract new players. They are very loyal to their players and it has paid off. It is more difficult to keep up in a cap world though because even if everyone wants to come, you can't sign them all.

We'll see what happens the rest of the year, I'm not focusing too much on 3 games, but I must say I was a little worried coming into the year, nothing has changed that yet.

Yes that was true.... before the cap. The 2 things that attract players are winning and money. But yet this past season we where not able to get the top UFA's. In fact it has been 6? years since we were able to get one of the top UFA's in the market. Hossa was the last real big timer that I remember. The rest of our signings have been second teir types.

Another thing to keep in mind is under the new CBA the max for resigning a FA is 8 years vs only 7 years for signing some other teams UFA. That will do 2 things: 1. increase the trade value for UFA's-they can get longer contracts and more money by resigning 2. increase trades. Expect this to be explioted by teams.

6. I am a guy that likes balance on a team. I don't want the "BroadStreet bullies'. Nor do i like a team of Hudler's.... You dress 12 forwards every game. In an ideal world 6 of those forwards should be big physical guys and 6 smaller speed/skill guys. Those 12 should also be equal RH and LH shooters. Then even more ideal you would have 3 big RH shots, 3 big LH shots, 3 RH smaller speed/skill guys, and 3 LH smaller speed/skill guys. Then you can mix and match up as needed. same thing on D. the 6 Dmen should always be 3 RH shots and 3 LH shots. With a mix of size, speed, skill, strength and grit.

We went through this same crap in 06/07 after we lost Shanahan/Yzerman. The team will be fine. No need to sell the team when we are a whopping three games into the season.

Also, you put way too much emphasis on the draft. It's really hard to build a team throught the draft alone unless you are consistently drafting in the top 5, which means you have to suck for a long time. Worked for Pittsburgh and Edmonton. Drafting players is always a gamble. Ask Thomas McCollum, or even Angelo Esposito...

I agree, we don't need to have a fire sale. Most of the troubles this team have can be fixed this season and as far as I'm concerned the only LEGITIMATE problem is the defense. The offense is struggling because they are having to play back and cover for a shoddy defense. Fix the defense and the forwards can get back to doing their job, scoring first and being defensively responsible second.

Also, the PP and PK will get better too. Our PP is awful, but until yesterday our guys had exactly 5 practices to learn an entirely new system...obviously there's going to be some hiccups. They've had two more days to work on it now, and so I expect it will improve. Same with the PK, when you're struggling you need practice, which until this week they haven't been able to do.

The only real concern is the defense, which Holland will address by the deadline, if not before.

GMRwings: "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage. For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada. There's some US states where it's 16 as well.

Yes that was true.... before the cap. The 2 things that attract players are winning and money. But yet this past season we where not able to get the top UFA's. In fact it has been 6? years since we were able to get one of the top UFA's in the market. Hossa was the last real big timer that I remember. The rest of our signings have been second teir types.

Another thing to keep in mind is under the new CBA the max for resigning a FA is 8 years vs only 7 years for signing some other teams UFA. That will do 2 things: 1. increase the trade value for UFA's-they can get longer contracts and more money by resigning 2. increase trades. Expect this to be explioted by teams.

They may not have attracted a lot of UFAs recently, but they have been able to keep their own players from going elsewhere and have been able to do so at reasonable prices.

Every wing looks promising in their first game, from Kyle Calder to Derek Meech. I remember someone here saying Lebda was going to be "elite".

None of which takes away from the fact that 3 games is still a bigger sample size than 1 game, especially when it's more like 3 seasons that the Wings have been in their slow but inexorable decline.. About the same length of time that you' 've been in denial.

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

Oh those lovable Red Wings. Let's be honest, these first 3 games have been really hard to watch. We as wingnuts have been spoiled over the last 20 years. But, as always happens with dynasty's, we held the same hand for far to long. There is no doubt that moving proven players that help you win championships is hard to do. But we should have done just that. But that is water under the bridge. The other by product of our success is bad drafts. We have a weak farm system. Most of the guys with NHL talent are either here-thanks to the injuries or are 2+ years away. The owrse part is, we are not bad enough to draft in the top 5. IMHO we will end up around 15-just making the PO's this year, and thus missing out on the top end talent that could be in Detroit within a year. So yes, we get to add some more young talent in this years draft, but again most of it is 3+ years away.

So back to the top. We will get worse before we get better. For many of us this will be a hard jagged pill to swallow. But we don't have a lot of choice.

Now is it possible we have one of those wonderfull hot streaks were we win 10 out of 12 games? yes. But we also could have a bad streak where we lose 10 out of 12 as well. In fact, neither would surprise me...

So the real question, where do we go from here? This is what I would do:

1. Let it be known to the rest of the NHL that we are sellers. Everyone is available, for the right price of course. The hard part is, we don't have much in terms of value to get good young talnet back in return. Only 4 guys would fetch much: Z, Dat, Kronwall, and Howard. The only one of that group I wouldn't want to move is Howard, but he is a UFA after the season, so if the price is right, even he could go.

2. My goal in all trades is 3 fold: clear out cap space, pick up young talent, and add draft picks. Capgeek says we have 45 million spent for next season with a 13/14 cap of 64 million. Leaving 19 million to spend. I would prefer to resign Howard-we have nothing else ready to take his place and good G's are hard to find. That will eat up around 5 million to resign him. Leaving us with about 14 million to spend. The goal should be to get to 20+ million to spend in FA after we resign Howard.

3. We have 2 buyouts that we can use, that will not effect the cap. If we can't trade them away, I use the buyouts on Quincey and Franzen. That would give us another 7.7 million to spend.

4. If I am able to trade away datsyuk, then I would resign Filppula. Dat makes about 6.7 million per year and does have trade value. Filppula-who is 7 years younger is a UFA. Per the new CBA, resigning your current players allows you to go to a 8 year contract. Creating a chance for a lower cap hit. Yes, that would mean Filppula is 36 when his contract expires, or 1 year older than datsyuk is now. If the choice is 6 years @ 5 million per or 8 years @ 4 million per, go with the later. That would free up another 2.7 million after moving Dat.

5. If you take a long look at the RW's from top to bottom, you see several positions with glaring holes. For example, we have 0 big RH shooting RW's in the organization. Every RW is small or is a LH shot. We have the same issue on D, only 4 RH Dmen in the organization after this season. Most of which haven't played a single pro hockey game. The closest would be Nicastro, but he is hardly playing for the Griffins. The 3rd area that we are lacking in, is big C's. Unless you count Abdelkader as a C, we just don't have many over 6ft tall.

6. 13/14 Free Agency. We saw how well this worked last year, but this year some things could be different. There are several big under 30 forwards coming up on their UFA years. Most of which are canadians from Onterio. Meaning we are close to their homes. We also will have a nice pile of cash to spend. As of today, we have about 14 million to spend. Buyouts to Q and Franzen adds another 7.7 million to that total. That means we could sign 3 high end UFA's for 7 million per year. If we are able to move guys like Calaicovo, Eaves, bert, and sammy (please someone take them!) that would free up another 8.5+ million to add 1 or 2 more guys to fill some holes. The one glearing position of weakness in this years FA class in RH Dmen under 30. Just are not many available, as in none.

7. As for this years draft, That is my one focus, quality players that are RH shots. be they C's, RW's, or Dmen. For those that have never played, yes the hand of the shooter/passer does matter. It matters a lot. The half a second a guy has to spend turning to shoot or pass makes a huge difference.

Now I am sure some will jump up and down about trading dat or cutting this guy or that. So be it. But and here is the thought. Are we going to win the SC with Dat over the next 2 years? I would bet the house on no. So let's move him. I would bet a forward heavy team with few quality C's like the rangers would love to have him. They have several big young fowards and RH Dmen that would fit us. Same with the Devils. I am sure there are more that are in the same boat. But at the end of the day, the worse thing we can do is to stand pat and hope for something better out of the same parts. It just isn't going to happen.

I was going to post the little yellow dude with the violin, but can't find him.

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

Yes that was true.... before the cap. The 2 things that attract players are winning and money. But yet this past season we where not able to get the top UFA's. In fact it has been 6? years since we were able to get one of the top UFA's in the market. Hossa was the last real big timer that I remember. The rest of our signings have been second teir types.

Another thing to keep in mind is under the new CBA the max for resigning a FA is 8 years vs only 7 years for signing some other teams UFA. That will do 2 things: 1. increase the trade value for UFA's-they can get longer contracts and more money by resigning 2. increase trades. Expect this to be explioted by teams.

I don't understand the number of people who can't understand how over priced the Free Agent market is with the lack of high quality players available, and type of contracts that were previously signed, ex) Wisniewski. The next year's contracts have to be more. Also people were complaining about how much Ericsson signed for, but that's what he was worth on the open market. Why would anyone think Holland should over pay for UFA's?

The way to build a winner is through the draft and signing your best players long term. Signing Free Agents for 13 year deals is just insane! Suter and Parise aren't worth that kind of money or term. Plus when the Wild have to resign their own players, all future contracts will be based off of the Sute and Parise contracts. The Wild screwed themselves for 13 years!

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

I have no intentions of debating sample sizes when projecting end of season results. I totally agree that evaluating any team 3 games in to this ********-wart of a season could be considered jumping the gun a bit.

However, The Rangers, Canucks, and to a lesser extent, the Flyers all have less concerns "on paper" than the Wings do. It's easier to blow off their slow starts. A lot of us were concerned with this team coming into this season, so the bad start is less of an anomoly and more of a possible projection of things to come.

Let me conclude though, before any of the optimists loose their s*** about what I said above, I am by no means going to bet against this team. Just simply trying to point out that there is a difference, on paper anyway, between this team vs the Rangers, Canucks, and I'd even say the Flyers. So, with all due repsoct and good-natured intentions, I'm not sure that you can use this as leverage when making your point.

Agree with the 15-20 game timeframe. The thing is, with this lineup, so many of the "intangibles" will count more than they have in many years for the Wings: chemistry, teamwork, passion, coaching, leadership, etc. If these aren't noticeable factors after 15-20 games, then commence bitching and moaning.

By this logic, all of these teams are damned to having a terrible season, here's what I think we should do.

1) Watch hockey.

2) Repeat step 1 until 15-20 games into the season.

3) Use logic and see how teams are REALLY going to play the rest of the season after they actually play some hockey, get their bearings together from not playing in the NHL for so long, some not playing any hockey at all in 9 months, no preseason, and minimal training camps.

I've mentioned this before, look at the standings as we are 3 games into the season. The Flyers, Rangers, Canucks will in no way finish in the bottom of their respective conferences as they sit now, because determining the layout and future of a team this soon into the season is ridiculous. I'm not sure why this isn't understood better. This isn't the NFL where we play a dozen and a half games and even in a shortened season, starting 1-2-0 doesn't spell catastrophic scenario in my mind.

You don't need to watch 30 games to know and understand that the RW's are:

1. old

2. small

3. slow

4. have declining skills

5. injury prone.

All of which was true before the season, is true now, and will be true throughout the season, baring trade. Those 5 things together=average to poor team.

PS the other teams you mention are all bigger, younger, stronger, faster, equal or better skill and healthy. Those items combined = good to great team.

The first scenario examines, in respect to the data, the likelihood modifiers attached to the conclusions.

I like what I see about Lashoff. We might have a good future defenseman on our hands here!

This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!

Well, I know that arguing with you is a complete waste of time since your opinions are never ever wrong, so really I should give up, however I would like to point out that neither the OP or myself have said "This team is definitely a disaster! It needs to be blown up now!"

We, like many others on this board see this team as a borderline playoff team, and a team slowly in decline. And that without a major infusion of youth and talent, it is indeed going to get worse before it gets better. You insist on mocking anyone who expresses such an opinion as a hysterical chicken-licken worthy of your scorn instead of offering a constructive answer to the paper-thin defense, aging stars, unmotivated players and lack of blue-chip prospects to replace them.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

It will probably suck for 2-3 more years. During this time we'll see more of our prospects and less of the old guard. It has always been the MO of this team to grow their own players. It's worked very well so far. Philly has tried building their team through free agency and trades, yet they keep falling short. I would rather go through a few years of low expectations than a few years of disappointments.

It will probably suck for 2-3 more years. During this time we'll see more of our prospects and less of the old guard. It has always been the MO of this team to grow their own players. It's worked very well so far. Philly has tried building their team through free agency and trades, yet they keep falling short. I would rather go through a few years of low expectations than a few years of disappointments.

I think it might get interesting for the Red Wings this summer. Holland has a good amount of cap space to resign our good players and might have some openings to bring in some UFA's from teams that will need to shed salary to get under the lower cap for next season.

I’m just as unhappy as the next guy with the state of the
DRW this year.

Putting a Cup contender on the ice every single year in a

salary cap age is much easier said than done.

As a fan, I will watch this season and be faithful that

changes will be made either at the trade deadline or the off season. The
options are there. Kenny took his best shot at Suter and Parise and it didn’t
happen. That doesn’t mean we should go after whatever’s out there now. The free agent class after this season is just as good and would help the squad majorly. The Ducks can't conceivably keep everyone.
Don’t make team changing moves this season if we don’t realistically have a
chance to compete as well as we would if we can sign others after the season.

Just what I think. We’re a spoiled fan base and expect a Cup

every year, as we should, but is it really realistic in this day & age? Not
every single young talent is going to want to come here. We have to adjust. And
that will take time. It is what it is. But I keep my faith that we will always
be a competitive team, even if this year is a total blow, we will not turn into
the Chicago Blackhawks of the early 2000s.