Originally posted by NewAgeMan
There are two principal aspects of the argument I'm going to make (when time permits). The first will argue that the manifest reality, including
consciousness (as a tangled hierarchy), has arisen as a result of an intelligent subtraction from, the absolute formless potential as a
first/last cause or as a downward causation emanating from the Godhead aka Creative Agency, whereby the phenomenon of consciousness is
not and cannot simply arise as an epiphenomenon of matter, and the second, to "join the circle" will aim to show a manifest example of
superintelligent design embedded by anticipation and with intent, into the geometrical relationships and integers of our own earth-moon-sun
system/configuration as a precursor to earth's evolutionary development including that of the human being as self aware observer, and even as a
marker or a "sign" or signature intended for our own recognition, by the Creative Agency, but done in such a way that it cannot be dismissed
either as pure coincidence or nullified as meaningless by the strong anthropic principal.

In case you didn't notice, what we're looking for here is a dialogue, not some sort of us vs. them tit for tat raging debate filled with anger and
resentment, unfounded assumptions and personal opinions, and the guy was actually talking about his equanimous love and of love as a unitive principal
both in Biblical and extra-Biblical terms.

If you don't have anything of real value to add (see you post top of this page) then why bother spouting statements of anger and personal opinion?

There are two principal aspects of the argument I'm going to make (when time permits). The first will argue that the manifest reality,
including consciousness (as a tangled hierarchy), has arisen as a result of an intelligent subtraction from, the absolute formless potential as a
first/last cause or as a downward causation emanating from the Godhead aka Creative Agency, whereby the phenomenon of consciousness is not and cannot
simply arise as an epiphenomenon of matter, and the second, to "join the circle" will aim to show a manifest example of superintelligent design
embedded by anticipation and with intent, into the geometrical relationships and integers of our own earth-moon-sun system/configuration as a
precursor to earth's evolutionary development including that of the human being as self aware observer, and even as a marker or a "sign" or signature
intended for our own recognition, by the Creative Agency, but done in such a way that it cannot be dismissed either as pure coincidence or nullified
as meaningless by the strong anthropic principal.

I want clarification on all of the above quote. Use diagrams and puppet shows if you have to.

What about those who are condemned to Hell? Is an eternity in the most horrific place that can be imagined really a fitting punishment for a 100 years
of sin? You replied EXACTLY how I thought you would lol. I have nothing whatsoever against those who choose to follow God, but I get so tired of
hearing the same things from you guys. Have faith on Earth and you will be rewarded in Heaven. This all part of His plan. He wants to strengthen us
with a trial by fire. Think about this, the greatest gift that God gave mankind was free will...to use exactly how he tells us to. If you don't obey
you go straight to Hell, do not pass Go do not collect $200. He also knows, before we are even born, exactly what we are going to do because he has a
plan for all of us. This is not free will in my opinion.

Good thread

. I may not agree with you, but at least you got me thinking

.
Thanks for being civil as well, too many people on here want to jump straight into attack mode lol.

Originally posted by bb23108
How can the Unconditional cause any thing?

Not entirely sure precisely how but the unconditioned uncaused cause has in fact done so (caused). Behold! (look around).

It has been said that it was on a whim as in an "oh what the heck", or it could have arisen from a question "what am I?", or, if what I
strongly suspect is true (not as a process theology i.e.: for self discovery purposes) and that I aim to show in future posts - with
completeprior understanding and awareness (with infinite intelligence) according to a desire to share for the sake of or because
of, love.

"Therefore do not be afraid nor let your hearts be troubled, little ones, and be of good cheer, for it pleased the father (first father) to share
his kingdom (of life, light and love) with all his children!"

There are plenty of people who believe in God, and do not believe that man has a free will.

I have often heard people state as if it is an obvious fact that God created man with a "free will" but I have yet to see anyone show me how this is
logically possible, much less obvious or reasonable.

I will concede most certainly that we are not forced via compulsion to "act against our will" in other words we never find ourselves doing something
which we have not willed, which we do not desire as if we are a puppet having ones strings pulled. This presents the illusion of a "free will" to
many, I however fail to see how any attribute of my very being can be called truly free with respect to one who created every process and initiated
every experience that has led me to find myself as I am.

In other words, I rather find that I cannot escape destiny, for whatever I should choose to think, or speak, or do, these initiatives become my
destiny. My destiny is shaped as I go on, being what I find myself to be. I am certain however that I cannot change what I am, for any effort to
"change" in the future is already a seed taking root in my being even now, it is precisely my very makeup which will move me to evolve/ change for
the better or worse in response to my circumstances.

Originally posted by bb23108
How can the Unconditional cause any thing?

Not entirely sure precisely how but the unconditioned uncaused cause has in fact done so (caused). Behold! (look around).

Why do we have to think that the conditional worlds were caused by the Unconditional? Or created by God or some Uncaused cause or a Creative
Agency? Obviously, in the waking state we do see what is arising and it appears to be our reality, but is it altogether our Reality? Or is it just
apparently real, like in our dream states?

I don't presume God or the Unconditional Indivisible Divine created my dreams - they are simply patterns arising in the subconscious - and when I
awaken, they are not considered my reality.

So too with this waking state - it is much like the dream state except that we share our experiences together because we are all dreaming together and
mutually supporting this ego principle and its mind-made myths together, and this keeps our fullest recognition of Reality at bay.

When I wake up from dreams, I don't wonder, gosh, who made those dreams, where did they come from, why did God do that, etc. - the dreams are just
considered unnecessary figments once awake.

And the same with the waking state - realizers say you do not mull over where did this waking state come from, what's that all about, etc. They simply
say, wake up, and those kinds of questions are dissolved because the ego-principle upon which they rest, has been dissolved - just like waking up from
dreaming.

So I am looking forward to your presentation as I like to see mysteries of this great realm. Such appearances, especially sacred ones (even though
they are still a part of this dream world), can evoke the heart's tacit recognition that all arising is non-separate modifications of Light, and thus
further inspire us to wake up.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
~ Albert Einstein

Think of it (the everything, including our world) as the infrastructure which makes experience possible.

Also, waking up to the Reality doesn't cause it to disappear.

And after all this time, now that we're here, should our highest goal really be to achieve a state of absolute nothingness? Why can't we just be
ourselves as we are?

I've been to the place/state of the unconditioned ground of being. It's very liberating and it's still there.

There shouldn't be a conflict with the material world as the visible manifest reality, and no it doesn't imply that that's the whole of reality,
and neither are we or the cosmos just a "thing" but a process and intrinsic to a mysterious creative process.

And me I'm ok if "God" was here first and created me at all levels (whatever that means) within himself as a part of, and if the reason or the
motive and catalyst to creation is love, what's wrong with an intimate, participatory "romance" between the beloved and beloved other which keeps
love alive?

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