Posted - 02/22/2012 : 04:56:14 Maybe I am the only one who thinks that Ron Wilson really might not be a great coach. The team as a whole, does not play consistently, as sometimes they look like a dangerous team, and others they look like pushovers. See the start of the season, compared to now, and right now they are playing with an overall healthy team. Also their lackluster effort in third periods, and inability to hold leads, to me says that they could use a coaching change. Someone who can get a little more from his players. Another thing, we are approaching trade deadline and it is still uncertain who is the number one goalie in Toronto, even though Reimer hasn't played the same since his "not a concussion" I think he is the better goale, though that may be a seperate discussion altogether. You need to focus on ONE goalie, and get his confidence and level of play elevated. Otherwise you get two goalies, both playing shaky, unsure if they will even play the next game. I know that Burke and Wilson are old college buddies/linemates but is that really worth flushing away a team, and most likely sitting on the outside of the playoff circle by the end of the year. Thanks Burke

40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)

slozo

Posted - 03/03/2012 : 04:57:10 This is proof that griping, when done effectively enough on PUH, CAN make change happen!

Good riddance Ron, don't let the bus run over you on your way out. And yes, that is the same bus that you threw your players under, especially the goalies . . . lol

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Guest4377

Posted - 03/02/2012 : 17:40:56 Going, going.....GONE!!

mandree888

Posted - 03/02/2012 : 06:19:59 wilson must go. lets look at a couple older head coaches from the leafs. Pat quinn missed play offs once and was fired. (with a worse team)Paul maurice missed i beleive 2 or three times maybee 4 i dont rememeber and was fired (with the same team)

now with a better team Wilson is about to miss for the fourth time! Leafs fans are about to loose their minds because he is still behind the bench loosing with a better balanced team than we have had in years!

granted both quinn and PM were with the fully inept and the "lets send all of our young guys to other teams" happy GM of john ferguson jr but still i do think (my personall opinion) that wilson must go. i dont thin he is the right fit for what the leafs need right now

The Duke

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 19:53:24 LMAO...i was calling Wilson a moron Beans, not you, you should know the difference of that by now.

Anyway, the right coach, ( who is respected by his players ) can have any 1 play total defensive hockey.

Toronto has the PERFECT personnel for a trap...turn-over system...they are very, very fast and would excel with this plan...their team speed would be a huge asset in intercepting netural zone pucks and turning the play the other way.

As for the trap not working for Tampa Bay.....what has worked for TB since the departure of the ...Bulin Wall...after their stanley cup win. I`ve always said and truely believe that without one of the better goalies in the league on your team...you have nothing !!!

TB`s goal - tending is worst than TO`s...their defense is non - existent...thats their problem, not the trap.

Getting back on topic........this will not work right now with Ron Wilson behind the bench because he doesn`t have player respect...he has thrown too many players under the bus with his personel attacks. He could have implemented this defense first when he arrived in TO...but not anymore, its too late.

Time for Ronnie to move on, why would you even want to stay there when the fans are chanting...fire Wilson ??

Beans15

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 14:14:21 Duke, did you just call me a moron or call Wilson a moron??? If you called me a moron, please keep within the forum guidelines and leave the personal attacks out. If you called Wilson a moron, please disregard my comment and fire away. It's not against any guideline to name call non-posters.

So, Wilson should be using a trap system?? Is that what I heard?? Ok, what players should be trapping again?? Is it those same players who can't stop the oppositions forwards from completely dominating a game??

You can't run a trap without the right players. Wilson's team has been built for speed and offense. They are missing the goaltending need to play that style of hockey. I completely agree with that. But is that Wilson's fault??

His players are offensive skilled guy, not defensive shutdown guys. And to talk about a team with killer offensive weapons who play the trap, look no further than the Tampa Bay Lightening. How are they doing these days??

Now, on the flip side, take a look at the St Louis Blues. Here is a team who was trying to play a run and gun style with players who should be utilized to play a team defensive game. They failed when they were in a system they were not suited for. Enter Ken Hitchcock and a team defense philosophy and bam, nearly the league leaders.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Leafs have the player to have a team defense/trap system and they don't have the big play goaltending and shut down forward group to play a run and gun style.

No one is twisting anything. There are simply two trains of thought:

One thought is the Leafs have the talent and simply don't have the coaching to win.

The other thoughts is the Leafs don't have the talent to win so the coaching is virtually irrelevant.

I twist nothing, I simply believe the latter of the two thoughts and am providing opinions to support that thought.

Guest4889

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 11:02:18 Alex...I always refer to those I don't hold in esteem as "Dirty" fill in the blank...in this case Ron.

He's quite the wind-bag. He shows little respect for anyone...press, media or even his own players. Pretty "dirty" to me.

And as he has little to back up his attitude...at least in recent memory...he doesn't have a leg to stand on...clean or dirty.

The Duke

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 09:36:30 Beans those items i listed will make the leafs a possible division leader, competing with Boston for the title.

Even without those peices right now, the leafs ( with a good defensive system in place and a real coach ) are good enough to make the playoffs....

What you refer to are 2 totally diffrent things...like i always say...you take peoples comments and twist them into something they are not really portraying.

Wilson is a lousy coach......you said Wilson is using the only system he can with the players he has to utilize......

How can you have a run and gun system with ...1 scoring line..and 2 goalies ranking at 39 th and 42 nd overall in the entire NHL in GAA.....plus a drastically under - achieving defensively core ???

The only system Wilson can use with the players he has is a defensive trap....total defensive system......shut down the other team and wait for the likes of kessel, Lupul, Grab, Maca, Conn, Lomb to jump on turn - overs and break the other way.

Wilson is going opposite to this system and that is why the team can`t win a game....Wilson is a moron. He is trying the 1980`s Edmonton Oilers approach to winning games.......the trouble is, he doesn`t have Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Anderson, Coffey and Grant Fuhr......

Hers a list of goals the leafs needed to score over the last 10 games they played in order to beat their opponents by ONE goal.... ( 5 )...( 6 )...( 6 )...( 4 )... ( 7 )...( 5 )...( 3 )...( 5 )...( 6 )...( 6 )...

They had to score an average of 5.3 goals per game over that 10 game span....Wilsons run and gun is sure working !!!...Moron

Alex116

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 08:05:25

quote:Originally posted by Guest4889

Dirty Ron should have been 'let go' after the 2009/10 season…last year FOR SURE. His 'style' of coaching is totally passe. LAST year at the all-star break the players were polled and Dirty Ron was named as the one NHL coach the vast majority did NOT want to play for. How's THAT gonna attract free agents to Toronto?

A mirage start to THIS season saved Dirty Ron. But then reality nestled back into place. 4 years of no penalty kill worth a tinker's damn. F O U R!!! The ONLY constant in that penalty kill is Dirty Ron. [and his inefficient 'system'] He was supposed to be a specialist in that regard. Specialist my eye!!!

The team is disorganized. They seemingly have no plan for moving the puck out of their own zone. They have no workable systems. Why? They have NO head coach. Just Dirty Ron.

Brian Burke....I'm talking to you.

Lose Dirty Ron or you too will be heading out of town sometime next season. John Ferguson Jr. had a better record with the Leafs. You guys pretty much suck...BIG TIME.

[I've been a Leaf fan all my life. THIS era is just a horror show. Harold Ballard lives through these 2 under-achievers. It's the nightmare that will not stop recurring.]

Lee Marshall

Lee, i'm just curious, where'd the "Dirty Ron" come from? Between that and guest6835's comment about Phaneuf and Wilson "holding each others corn", this thread is actually becoming pretty amusing!

Guest4889

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:46:54 Dirty Ron should have been 'let go' after the 2009/10 season…last year FOR SURE. His 'style' of coaching is totally passe. LAST year at the all-star break the players were polled and Dirty Ron was named as the one NHL coach the vast majority did NOT want to play for. How's THAT gonna attract free agents to Toronto?

A mirage start to THIS season saved Dirty Ron. But then reality nestled back into place. 4 years of no penalty kill worth a tinker's damn. F O U R!!! The ONLY constant in that penalty kill is Dirty Ron. [and his inefficient 'system'] He was supposed to be a specialist in that regard. Specialist my eye!!!

The team is disorganized. They seemingly have no plan for moving the puck out of their own zone. They have no workable systems. Why? They have NO head coach. Just Dirty Ron.

Brian Burke....I'm talking to you.

Lose Dirty Ron or you too will be heading out of town sometime next season. John Ferguson Jr. had a better record with the Leafs. You guys pretty much suck...BIG TIME.

[I've been a Leaf fan all my life. THIS era is just a horror show. Harold Ballard lives through these 2 under-achievers. It's the nightmare that will not stop recurring.]

Lee Marshall

Guest6835

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:36:28 Who's the guy in charge for matching lines.The coach.How many times did Wilson have his fourth line against Kane and Hossa last night.Fire him.Dion fell down at least a dozen times last night.Caused two goals,was on the ice for three and blew a scoring chance when the game was 4-3.Minor league for Dion for conditioning.Retirement for Wilson.Nuff said.

Guest6835

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:28:34 You can take Wilson and Phneuf,package them and ship them to the minors.I swear they hold each others corn at night.Wilson cannot coach and Dion can't even skate.He causes so many goals and scoring opportunities.For sure the most overated,overpaid player in all pro hockey.If you want to win,bag this pair of losers.

Beans15

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 05:25:52

quote:Originally posted by Shepsky

Yes but Beans, how many times in that Chicago game did Toronto get caught in a bad line change, if you didn't watch the game it was a lot. Who is to blame for that? The leafs did have trouble containing the top line, but the defense was still atrocious overall. Mackenzie said it best during first intermission on TSN. If the Leafs fail to make the playoffs again, there is no way that Ron Wilson can keep his job, with his poor record of actually making the playoffs with teams he's coaching. Maybe Wilson would be a better fit somewhere else, maybe he would be a great coach elsewhere, he just doens't fit in Toronto right now.

Who's to blame for that??? Umm, perhaps the players??? Is it not the players on the ice who are coming off?? It's not like Wilson is always calling the players off the ice and bad times, is he?? I haven't seen an NHL head coach dictate lines in that fashion during the game.

I guess that one could look at every problem on an NHL team and blame the coach, but c'mon. Line changes now???

I don't disagree that Wilson will likely be gone if the Leafs don't make the playoffs. However, I still don't see the Leafs as a playoff team without consistent goaltending(that normally comes with experience) and a legit set of 3rd line, shut down fowards to stop the other team from running over them. To the example of the Chicago game, how often did the commentators talk about how poorly the Steckel line was playing and how much the Leafs are a run and gun team as they can't stop the opposition from scoring??

Wilson is running the proper system for the players he has. They are an offensively focused team that try to outscore (rather than stop) the opposition.

Shepsky

Posted - 03/01/2012 : 04:16:04 Yes but Beans, how many times in that Chicago game did Toronto get caught in a bad line change, if you didn't watch the game it was a lot. Who is to blame for that? The leafs did have trouble containing the top line, but the defense was still atrocious overall. Mackenzie said it best during first intermission on TSN. If the Leafs fail to make the playoffs again, there is no way that Ron Wilson can keep his job, with his poor record of actually making the playoffs with teams he's coaching. Maybe Wilson would be a better fit somewhere else, maybe he would be a great coach elsewhere, he just doens't fit in Toronto right now.

Beans15

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 20:44:14

quote:Originally posted by The Duke

Beans, didn`t i list these needs you refer to.....

In an earlier post i listed ( i think ) if memory serves me correctly.....

A number 1 center for the first line......a big winger with scoring touch for their 2nd line.......a real # 1 goalie..........a true shutdown defenseman.....and a 4th line center who can skate ( Mike . Zig ) wouldn`t hurt either.

Why not play some young guys and see if some energy can be brought to this team...

Again Duke, you are awesome. In one hand you are saying Wilson is a horrible coach and needs to go because if a different coach was brought in the Leafs would be better. The next post you say that the Leafs are still missing nearly every piece that a true contender needs to compete.

If Wilson doesn't have those pieces, is he still expected to make his team perform as if they had those pieces??

I think the guys on TSN said it very well tonight. If you look at their effort against Chicago, it sure didn't look like a team that wasn't listening to the coach and he has lost the room. It looked to me as a team who simply could not contain the other teams top line.

Shepsky

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 17:43:16 I don't think Kessel and Lupul have really cooled off, true they aren't scoring at an amazing right, but even the best players have good and bad games, even when the leafs are losing Kessel and Lupul are still getting points, and both still sit in the top ten for points in the league. I think these 2 are still playing to how they should be, maybe even better. I think the problems aren't Kessel and Lupul. Goaltending is an issue, bet a better defensive minded team in front of them would help a lot, and Wilson needs to coach his team to do that, he has failed. The Leafs are still sitting in 8th for goals/game, not to shabby. There is clearly an area to improve and that's goals against/game

In an earlier post i listed ( i think ) if memory serves me correctly.....

A number 1 center for the first line......a big winger with scoring touch for their 2nd line.......a real # 1 goalie..........a true shutdown defenseman.....and a 4th line center who can skate ( Mike . Zig ) wouldn`t hurt either.

Why not play some young guys and see if some energy can be brought to this team...

Beans15

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 12:07:48 Granted, it is far easier to stir the pot when the Leafs are doing poorly. Every time I tried to get the masses going when things were sunny in TO I got shut down.

Hey, I really can't imagine the frustration in TO. It has been a long time since the Oilers were good enough to even be mentioned in talks of the playoffs. If I was a Leaf fan at the 40 game mark I would have been happy as a clam. However, I would be sweating bullets today, and rightfully so. No one wants their team to be 4 pts out of the playoffs with 19 games left. Especially after losing 9 of 10.

That being said, I still think this situation is the Leaf Nation looking for a pound of flesh. There are some great points that Leaf fans are making about Wilson and the mistakes he is making. However, I don't hear anything about the disgusting play of the defensive group or the pitiful play of the PP (I think before last night they were something like 1-28 in the last 5 or 6 games). No one is talking about Kessel and Lupul cooling, the turnovers the defense, or the very shaky goalie play.

Wilson is part of the problem, albeit not the only problem and I still don't think the biggest problem. There is a formula for success in the NHL. A recipe if you will. It's like baking a cake. You can have the flour, the milk, and the eggs, but you can't make a cake with a little baking soda too!!

The Leafs are missing ingredients that are more important that coaching, at least in my opinion. I see the Leafs needing more quality in their bottom 6 forwards and more experienced goaltending as bigger issues than Wilson as the coach.

mandree888

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 12:02:32 rofl alex lol..... i would only start the parade if it was game seven and 30 seconds left of the finals that the leafs were up 7 - 0 ...... even that they could still blow...... so ......

Alex116

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 11:46:41

quote:Originally posted by Guest2765

This is why i laugh every October when every Leaf fan is planning the Stanely cup parade. Why can't they realize they don't have a good and say so

Oh no...don't start this talk! If you think Beans stirred the pot, this will tip the frickin' thing over!!!

Guest2765

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 09:04:47 This is why i laugh every October when every Leaf fan is planning the Stanely cup parade. Why can't they realize they don't have a good and say so

Guest7752

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 08:56:30 Last year we had waffles thrown at the team.This year we have "Fire Wilson" chants...

And Wilson had his contract extended??

He had a decent Anaheim team in early 90's, and won nothing.He had a very good Washington team in early 2000's didn't get past first round of playoffs.He had an excellent team with San Jose in mid to late 2000's - didn't get his team past 2nd round in playoffs.

What can he possibly do in Toronto with a team that has only one very good offensive line, no solid goalie, and a confused, expensive, over-rated defence?? He's leading a team that had waffles thrown at them, fans booing them off the ice, and fans calling for his head on national TV?? Now even Sport-show commentators are "suggesting" he step down or Burke replaces him...

Wow - we all thought the Habs were the laughing stock of NHL this year.

Beans15

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 08:09:29 Ok, my pot stirring has done enough to get Leafland all riled up. I really am not a huge fan of Wilson as a person as many have eluded to. I do this his is an arrogant jerk in most of his interactions with the media. However, I will defend him on a few things:

1) Slozo, you talk about Wilson's mismanagement of the third line. I think the key is the 2nd part of the word 'mismanagement." Wilson creates the lines based on the players he has at his disposal. Burke give him those players.

2) Duke, you are awesome. Does anyone else remember Duke's argument last year that OTL were a wash and didn't count as losses for a team?? I do. I can find it if need. I just think it's hilarious that now, OTL count against Wilson.

I really don't feel like having this argument anymore. I was bored and wanted to stir the pot. I am now bored with stirring the pot. But Leaf fans make it so incredibly easy. Just disagree with what they are saying, do it a little abrasively, and watch the fur fly!!!

My final point, and what I still will defend Wilson about, is that the Leaf roster is an average team. Maybe marginally better than average, at best. I still don't think any coach is going to make that significant of a difference. If Scott Bowman in his prime was the coach of the Leafs, they would likely be a playoff team but not much higher than 6th or 7th and they would still bow out in the 1st round against any of Boston, NYR, PITT, or FLA(if last night was any indication).

I am done. I will leave the Leaf fans alone for now as the next 20 games will be hard enough for them to deal with.

mandree888

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 07:33:11 i agree with kadri joining the team at this point. as well as colbourne. why he is not at least practicing with the team and learning face off cirlce stratigies with steckel is beyond me both kadri and colbourne (as well as frattin for that matter) are centres..... get them working on the face off strategies with your lead face off guy is a must. steckel came to the team and was helping lead the team from the get go and he doesnt even have an "A" on his jersey. wtf! wilson constantly kills any confidence in his youth players by not utlizing them and not letting them develop. they are supposed to be the leafs of the futre and wilson crushes their hopes.

When kadri colbourne and frattin were play earlier in the year when the leafs had injuries i thought they were perfect fit for the energy line. (could use a little more defence yeah but again if wilson actually focused on defence who knows what would happen.)

These guys are nhl ready right now and wilson doesnt use them becuase he feels there are to much of a liablity on the defence. (heres and idea wilson COACH DEFENCE!)

Look at boston last year the won because of amazing defence not because their offence is good.Detroit on of the best defence teams won many cups.

we have good players on defence. Too many offensive defencemanphaneuf liles gardiner franson and two defensive defencmen shenn and komi......

slozo

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 05:15:55

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

Were you Leaf fans here on PUH at the game? There was quite the "FIRE RON WILSON" chant going on in the highlights i saw!!

Seems most Leaf fans are pissed BB didn't make a bigger move at the deadline, but i'm not shocked. He's the one who admitted it's a sellers market and buyers have to pay a premium. While he is a stubborn guy, i don't blame him all that much when they're realy not all that close to making a splash in the playoffs.

My honest Canuck-tainted opinion, would be to have Kadri playing as much as possible down the stretch. The Leafs really need to know if this kid is gonna be able to play at this level! Give him the call, give him the ice time on one of the top lines and see what he can do before the draft rolls around.

I totally agree with you, Alex. At this point, Kadri should be a full time Leaf . . . I had predicted he would be up for the whole year, in fact.

But, Wilson hates Kadri. He can't stop slagging the kid in public (check it out on utube if you don't believe me) and he has been so reluctant to give him a shot with a talented centre . . . this, in a season where Kulemin should be playing on the second line, and where a skilled forward like Kadri might fit very well with Grabovski and MacArthur. Sure, it'd be a bit of a "waterbug" line, but at least Kadri is in the right position for his skillset level, and not playing out of role on the third line.

One of the many, many mismanagement issues of Wilson, and until he is fired, will continue on. Kadri has not been perfect, and I have not been a fan of his attitude/effort at times . . . but Wilson has gone a long way to killing the kid's development here.

Funniest thing is . . . Wilson will slag guys like Kadri on his defence, and yet, his supposed leaders/stalwarts are leading the team in horrible defensive coverage. It's all ass-backwards here in Leafland.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Shepsky

Posted - 02/29/2012 : 04:24:27 I'm not too upset Burke didn't do anything at deadline, The Leafs are not in a position to be a buyer right now, even at deadline they were 2 points back of a playoff spot, not a good position to be in to be dealing away draft picks to make a "playoff run" but also in a position where not all hope is lost, so why trade away good players.

Alex116

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 23:11:38 Were you Leaf fans here on PUH at the game? There was quite the "FIRE RON WILSON" chant going on in the highlights i saw!!

Seems most Leaf fans are pissed BB didn't make a bigger move at the deadline, but i'm not shocked. He's the one who admitted it's a sellers market and buyers have to pay a premium. While he is a stubborn guy, i don't blame him all that much when they're realy not all that close to making a splash in the playoffs.

My honest Canuck-tainted opinion, would be to have Kadri playing as much as possible down the stretch. The Leafs really need to know if this kid is gonna be able to play at this level! Give him the call, give him the ice time on one of the top lines and see what he can do before the draft rolls around.

The Duke

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 20:34:41 Beans last season Phaneuf was HORRIBLE for the first 50 games. Keth Aulie was then placed as his defense partner...Phaneuf blossomed for the remainder of the season.

What was Wilson`s reward to Aulie this year ? Sent him to the AHL. He wasn`t good enough for Wilson`s team this season so he then became expendable...some coach heh ?

M. Komo is in and out of the lineup like a yoyo...the guys head is spinning, one mistake and your out..how can you play hockey like this ??

When his goalies play great he downplays them in post game conferences...humbling them...and this is supposed to help Reimer and Gus. how ??...kill their confidience ??

Kadri is astonishing to watch with skill and creativity in the AHL because his coach lets him play hockey...as soon as he is under Wilson`s control..no, no, no, we don`t do that up here....you listen to me and play like robot....Wilson would Fk-in spoil Pavel Datsyuk. He ( kadri ) was argue-ably Toronto`s most creative player in the last 2 pre - seasons but Wilson doesn`t like him.....just let the kid do what he is good at...free - wheeling.

Wilson has had Schenn as the main shutdown PK defenseman for 3 years now...wheres the PK ?? 29th again ?? I don`t even know anymore. How many years will it take for him to realize he needs to change something ?? 4 years, 5 years, 6 years ??

Do you watch any leaf games ?? If you do, have you ever seen so many Break - aways...2 on 1`s...3 on 2`s againist any other NHL team as you do with the leafs ??....i don`t think so !!!

This is 2 years of this now...if Ron Wilson is so great, Do you think he would have solved this problem by now ??

How many games will it take before he realizes that his defenseman are pinching wayyyyyyyy to much at the opposing teams blueline ??...This is where the leafs are constantly being caught out - maned....I seen this 2 years ago.....What is wrong with Ron the great that he can`t rectify this problem ??

I can go on and on and on....but i just get so sick of dwelling on the same ole leaf problems, which can mostly be fixed by an intelligent coach....it would make it so much easier on those guys.

Isn`t he the only coach in NHL history to coach a team to 30 th overall ( dead last ) in PP and 30 th overall ( dead last ) in PK in the same season ????......NOT ONCE..BUT..TWO TIMES !!!!!!!

As for his accumulative wins...if you`ve coached as long as he has...haven`t you got to win so many games ??? You can`t lose them all can you ??

If the leafs miss the playoffs this season Wilson`s teams ( as NHL head coach ) would have missed the playoffs 10 out of 18 coaching seasons....i know they all weren`t stellar teams but on the other hand, the 8 seasons he DID get in..he had some great teams....a point to ponder.

Outside of the SJ sharks, ( i was interested in what he did outside of the power - house Sharks )....( regular season ) he has a career .497 winning %.....

Was also interested in his winning % with a young Ana. Ducks team, combined with a young leafs team...its a .466 winning %.

As for his playoff winning %.....it is .495

Well, i just threw in some data there for observation. I`m not a Ron Wilson fan and never will be because of his personality...he is a jerk and makes an a$$ of himself in public as far as i`m concerned.

slozo

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 20:11:29

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

I don't think that I ever argued the Leafs can't score. Regardless of it it comes from 1 line or 2, offense is not the issue. Slozo, you named 3 players who are 'tough to play against' defensively. Too bad a hockey team normally needs 6 of those guys in their forward group.

The goalies, confident or not, are both back up goalies in most systems.

Wilson has an average to slightly above average line up of players and that is how they are performing. That is my point.

No,I named FOUR players who are tough to play against who could be in our bottom 6, which was in reference to another poster's comment on the Leafs botom 6. No, the Leafs aren't the biggest or most hard-nosed lot .. . but they are not total softies.

In the top 6, Lupul is no pushover, and neither is Grabovski despite his size. But the offense is there for those lines, look at any other top lines in the NHL that might be considered soft yet effective.

And Beans . . . your put down of the Leafs third line is classic, in that it's the Leafs coach you defend - Wilson - who MADE that line. Exactly the kind of mismanagement I am talking about!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 11:17:26 I don't think that I ever argued the Leafs can't score. Regardless of it it comes from 1 line or 2, offense is not the issue. Slozo, you named 3 players who are 'tough to play against' defensively. Too bad a hockey team normally needs 6 of those guys in their forward group.

The goalies, confident or not, are both back up goalies in most systems.

Wilson has an average to slightly above average line up of players and that is how they are performing. That is my point.

slozo

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 11:00:12

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....

Actually Beans,You and most others - including myself - called Connolly a marginal 1st line centre.

And that marginal first line/second line centre used to play for the perrenial playoff team the Buffalo Sabres, on the first line when he was healthy most of the time.

I agree with the decision to let Bozak stay on the top line, myself . . . but Connolly is misplaced on the third line, for sure. And Wilson put him on that line - nobody forced him to.

Just like we have a guy in Kulemin who COULD be playing quite well as a grittier third line guy, but even though his production consistantly drags down his linemates, he stays on the second line.

So Beans - we have gone through your points here . . . you stated that Wilson has a poor batch of scorers, only a one line team, and that is provably false. You have said that we don't have the grit for our third and fourth line, and yet guys like Steckel, Brown, Armstrong, and what should be a guy like Kulemin are all there to be used. You state that without a good goalie, you can't be a good coach . . . ignoring the fact that Wilson, through his goalie mismanagement, has killed both goalies' confidence. And, you have stated that Leafs fans are bandwagon jumpers, just minlessly asking for the coaches job at every losing streak - again, provably false.

I just have one more question for you then, my contrarian friend:

Are you Wilson's agent?Because I have a deal for you then . . . we give the Oilers Ron Wilson, we'll take any of your ASSISTANT coaches, and I predict a better Leafs team going forward!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

nuxfan

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 10:30:43

quote:Originally posted by Leafs81

quote:Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:Originally posted by Leafs81Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.

Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.

I never said Connolly was gonna have a 80 points season. Check it out if you want. I don't recall anybody else on this site saying that either, why is everything blown out of proportions??? Yes he's not producing very well this season and a reason for him being on the third line. And when a lot of players are not achieving to there potentials, well it's as fair a reason why Leafs fans blame the coaching staff. We have been seing that for a few seasons now.

Leafs81, relax - I was not pointing at you specifically. There was so much exuberance from Leaf faithful when Connolly came over as the "answer to our missing first line centre", its shocking that he's fallen that far in the depth chart.

quote:Yes it's a lot of money to put on a third line but I think it shows that Toronto has depth and they are more talented then most third line in the NHL just underproducing.

I wanted to single this out. No, it does not show me that they have depth - as Beans alluded to, the character of your third line is not that of your second line, and should not be made up of offensive players that don't fit on the second line.

When I think of quality 3rd lines, I think of BOS: Bergeron or Seguin, Chris Kelley, Greg Campbell, or VAN: Lapierre, Hansen, Higgins or Malhotra . Fast, strong, tough players that are defensive in nature and difficult to play against. There might be the occasional offensive flair, but their job is primarily to shut down the other team's top line, and not cost a lot of money doing so (BOS pays 8M or so for their 3rd line, VAN pays 5M or so). Armstrong is that type of player, but Lombardi and Connolly? Not so much.

You can't just take second line leftovers and put them on your 3rd line and hope they fit the mold, because they usually don't.

Leafs81

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 10:10:12

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....

Well true that, the third line should be a checking line. Another reason why Armstrong should never be a healthy scratch. Another reason why a struggling Kulemin should be playing on the third line. Kulemin is (this season) third line material, struggling offensively but really effective defensively and hard nose in his own zone.

As for Connolly he should be seeing some powerplay time with Kessel and Lupul.

Beans15

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 09:42:29 The point is that marginal 2nd line players are not effective 3rd line players. It's not like it's a graduated system!! Players rarely move from the 4th line to the 3rd, 2nd, then 1st. 3rd line players are generally a team's shutdown line. They will normally play against the opposition's best offensive line. 2nd line players are normally a more offensively focused line.

You hit the nail on the head by saying the Leafs are not a hard-nosed team to play against. So the question is, does that reflect Wilson's coaching ability or the players he has to use??

By the way, the Connelly excuse is pretty weak. Changing coaches?? C'mon. The only reason that Connelly is not the 1st line centre is he was injured at the start of the year. As such, Bozak got the 1st line nod and has played well with Lupul and Kessel. Wilson, being the good coach that he is, understands that he shouldn't mess with the chemistry of one of the top lines in the NHL.

He's completely garbage though. He should be sent packing.....

Leafs81

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 09:41:35

quote:Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:Originally posted by Leafs81Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.

Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.

I never said Connolly was gonna have a 80 points season. Check it out if you want. I don't recall anybody else on this site saying that either, why is everything blown out of proportions??? Yes he's not producing very well this season and a reason for him being on the third line. Yes it's a lot of money to put on a third line but I think it shows that Toronto has depth and they are more talented then most third line in the NHL just underproducing. And when a lot of players are not achieving to there potentials, well it's as fair a reason why Leafs fans blame the coaching staff. We have been seing that for a few seasons now.

Leafs81

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 09:34:31

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

I would not want Connelly, Lombardi, and Armstrong as the 3rd line on the team I cheer for, that's for sure!! They are all borderline 2nd line players and except for Lombardi, they are not defensively focused and hard to play against. They Leafs are not a hard group of forwards to play against. They are fast and more offensively focused than most NHL teams. However, the don't stop the other team hardly at all.

To the point that Ron Wilson failed as a head coach. Just out of curiousity, what would success look like?? Now, when answering that question please take into account the quality of players the Leafs have had.

For the record, Guest 5744 is not me, but I agree with his statement completely. The Leafs are simply not much more than an average NHL team.

They are not a tough team to play against, especially their forwards. They are not a hard nose team. But if they are marginal second line, how can't they be 3rd line material? Armstrong (when healthy and when not a healthy scratch by our dear friend Ron Wilson) is a very effective and hard nose third line player. Connolly is talented but having an off year, probably hard to adjust from playing with Lindy Ruff to Ron Wilson. Lombardi is speedy and you need speed when you want to put your energy line out.

Oh why did he fail??? Poor powerplay except for a few months this season, poor pk, poor defense system resulting in them being bottom of the conference when they should be fighting for a playoff spot and resulting in them being out of the playoff when they should or could be in. In the east right now there is two spots available because most teams are playing aweful and Toronto should be in front of teams like Winnipeg, Florida or Ottawa. Every year they are producing below their expectations and IMO they are not overrated (by the majority) but they are undercoached. Montreal in the past few seasons were playing well because of a great coaching system that everybody was playing for. That's why they were doing good, because with all the injuries they delt with and all the AHL players that were coming in were playing above their expectations. Same with Ottawa, Winnipeg and Florida this season. Same with Nashville and Phoenix the past few seasons. Those are all well coached team. I don't think Mike Smith or Jose Theodore are that better then Reimer and Gustavsson, but a well coached team makes it a whole lot easier for the goalies. St Louis is another exemple, and there is plenty of exemple like that every year that teams are overexceeding their expectations. Toronto are not with Ron Wilson, they are even underachieving, so to me that is failing. year after year

nuxfan

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 09:02:33

quote:Originally posted by Leafs81Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.

Wasn't Connolly supposed to be the first line centre this year? Saucering passes over to Kessel and Lupul enroute to a 80 pt season? Now he's the 3rd line centre?

TOR is spending 11.25M on their 3rd line, that is nuts. I would not want that line just for that reason alone... although I do like Armstrong as a player.

Beans15

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:26:31 I would not want Connelly, Lombardi, and Armstrong as the 3rd line on the team I cheer for, that's for sure!! They are all borderline 2nd line players and except for Lombardi, they are not defensively focused and hard to play against. They Leafs are not a hard group of forwards to play against. They are fast and more offensively focused than most NHL teams. However, the don't stop the other team hardly at all.

To the point that Ron Wilson failed as a head coach. Just out of curiousity, what would success look like?? Now, when answering that question please take into account the quality of players the Leafs have had.

For the record, Guest 5744 is not me, but I agree with his statement completely. The Leafs are simply not much more than an average NHL team.

Leafs81

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:12:48

quote:Originally posted by Guest5744

just to start things off... ron wilson is the current leader in wins among active nhl coaches.ron wilson is 6th all time in coaching wins. (could probably have cracked the top 5 if he hadn't taken a job in Toronto)you don't get there by accident.

the leafs have far worse problems than wilson:

- two current back-up goalies (gustavsson could be a starter i don't think reimer ever will)- the bottom 6 forwards aren't the depth guys you want- some bad contracts (komi, connolly)- lack of prospects until recently- 1 really bad trade to avoid a full re-build

Just for your bottom 6 comment. I think most team in the NHL would love to have Connolly, Lombardi and Armstrong as a third line, just Wilson that can't get them going, he doesn't give them any chance even when they are the best players out there. Steckell and Brown are very effective as a fourth line.

Leafs81

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:08:48 On this very thread there is a couple of Leafs fans saying that Ron Wilson is not the right fit for a very young Leafs team.

You are saying that Ron Wilson is a strategist, ok true that, but since is tenure in Toronto we haven't seen those strategies, or system, being in place especially defensively. So this is very frustrating for Leafs fans.

I don't recall reading any post sayind that Ron Wilson was a good coach when the Leafs were winning. You are on this site more often then I am so maybe you saw some comments, but you can't say it is the majority, especially from the regular Leafs fans on this site.

Montreal fans sent Guy Carbonneau and Jacques Martin packing in the past few seasons. Are they bandwagon jumpers, I don't think so they are just really passionnate fans that demands the best product possible on the ice.

Ron Wilson has been in Toronto for a few years now and he has failed miserably as a head coach. Burke clean the house that wasn't playing his system, and with a whole new team it's still the same story.

I get that Toronto is a young inconsistent team and that it will show with any coach. I will admit to that. But I've been saying for a couple of years now and I will keep saying it until I see a change in their play. Ron Wilson is not the right fit in Toronto and Brian Burke should fire him in the offseason.

Guest5744

Posted - 02/28/2012 : 08:07:27 just to start things off... ron wilson is the current leader in wins among active nhl coaches.ron wilson is 6th all time in coaching wins. (could probably have cracked the top 5 if he hadn't taken a job in Toronto)you don't get there by accident.

the leafs have far worse problems than wilson:

- two current back-up goalies (gustavsson could be a starter i don't think reimer ever will)- the bottom 6 forwards aren't the depth guys you want- some bad contracts (komi, connolly)- lack of prospects until recently- 1 really bad trade to avoid a full re-build