If Jesus was called “Emmanuel” which means “God with us”, and if he promised never to leave us or forsake us, then Christ is with us now.

If Christ is the one in whom we all live, and move, and have our being, then we are all surrounded – every moment of every day – with Christ.

If God is love, then we are always enveloped in this love; night and day, awake or asleep, all day, every day.

If God is our peace, our hope, our life, our joy, and our strength, then we are all wrapped in God’s eternal peace, hope, life, joy and strength.

If nothing can ever separate us from the love of God which is available to us all through Christ, then this means we will never – ever – know what it’s like to exist without God’s love. In fact, we will only know what it’s like to experience the love of God in greater measure and deeper intensity.

The arms of our Abba are forever wrapped around His children. Nothing will ever change this.

So, even if you don’t feel this love, it’s all around you. Even if you don’t realize God’s presence, it is an ever-present and constant reality.

Even if you don’t believe in God, this love remains upon you. Even if you don’t accept this love, it is available to you every moment of every day of your life.

God’s presence is inescapable. God’s love is irresistible. Like it or not, you are adored, treasured, valued and dearly loved by your Creator. His arms are open wide. His patience is inexhaustible. He has already made a place for you at the table, and the feast is almost ready to begin.

Take your time. The party won’t start without you. There’s a gift for you, over there in the corner. It’s got your name on it. Your real name. Not the one they call you. A name that only comes alive when it flows from God’s mouth and resonates in your chest.

Son. Daughter. Beloved.

This love is unlike anything you’ve ever known before. It’s more wonderful than your mind can comprehend. This love transcends all human understanding.

But that’s ok, because a love like this doesn’t need to be analyzed and understood. It just needs to be experienced. It needs to be tasted like the finest wine, or the sweetest fruit. It’s like a song that stops you in your tracks, brings tears to your eyes, inspires you to sing, to dance, to wrap yourself in the moment and pray that it never ends.

This love is a gift. It’s all yours.

Unwrap the presence.

**

Keith Giles was formerly a licensed and ordained minister who walked away from organized church 11 years ago, to start a home fellowship that gave away 100% of the offering to the poor in the community.

Today, He and his wife live in Meridian, Idaho, awaiting their next adventure.

Sometimes, ignorance is not all the bliss it’s made out to be by those who don’t know that they don’t know. As far as I can prove, Ivan never had a mother, or father for that matter.

I know my Father in me and me in my Father. I would love to introduce you.

BertB

If God is enveloping us in love, why are we threatened with Hell and eternal punishment if we do not believe in Him?
Is that your definition of “love?”
It is not mine.
It is a definition of divine HATE!

Ivan T. Errible

Yes, you do; don’t be a complete a**hole, pretending that your idiocy has any reality behind it.
Fatuous moron.
I know that you had parents; one can only hope they at least tried to teach you logic and evidence-based thinking.

Herm

Ah, but there is no pretense here.

C_Alan_Nault

That’s a lot of “If”s.

If Odin is the true god ( assuming a god exists), we had better make sure we die valiantly in battle, so we will be taken to Valhalla.

If Zeus is the true god ( assuming a god exists), we had better live righteous lives so we can enter the Elysium Fields.

If Jesus is the messiah …. never mind, according to the Bible he isn’t the messiah because he didn’t fulfill all the prophesied tasks the messiah must accomplish.

C_Alan_Nault

Omnipresent? Not according to the Bible.

C_Alan_Nault

Show him to us before you introduce us to him.

Herm

That’s your problem. You look with eyes of flesh, not heart and mind of spirit. Look first for your spirit, the image of God, before you can expect to see God, who is spirit right there, all around you. Look!!!

Keith Giles salutations to the Divinity or subtle energy within you. Not everyone is aware of the subtle energy, but sometimes people get a glimpse and that is heaven, hell is living in the cruder energies.

Everything is energy moving continuously in the universe, a swirling collection of stars and a blazing, flaming sun are infused with this energy or pure consciousness that carries information. The rock is energy that is swirling, but we can’t see it, we can’t even see the atoms that make its form. The energy behind the scenes is not static, but is constantly being manifest in a series of steps; changing in itself from a subtle force with information to the cruder manifestation of energy in matter also with information. In this process we go from pure consciousness to a cruder consciousness in the physical world where it evolves to the unicellular organisms through the multicellular plants, lower level animals to a self-conscious human brain.

Science has not come up with a definition for consciousness so we associate and correlate it with the soul or spirit because it is not dependent on our brain. The mystery of consciousness is more subtle and more expansive than the mind as it permeates our reality and is the foundation for the universe in everything as an energy that carries information. It is in fragments, atoms and quanta or pieces that come together to form complex life with a more expansive awareness as in humans. This consciousness is all over the place clarifying and enlightening as a factor of life that is full of energy that is active even in the rock, but not expressed. In humans we have many synapses made carbon, oxygen and nitrogen firing at the same of time. Seventy trillion synapses fire at the same time in our mind to form different patterns to perform an action or to inform with displays of electrical signals. Our consciousness expands from stimuli feedback patterns for the purpose to live on earth, but we can also go beyond the physical realm to the spiritual dimension as revealed in the continuous existence of subtle energy, which we can refer to as soul or consciousness.

C_Alan_Nault

“That’s your problem. You look with eyes of flesh”

Those are the only eyes I have to look with.

” not heart and mind of spirit.”

My heart has nothing to look with. My heart is a muscle.

“mind of spirit” ??? I have no idea what you mean by that term. Can you define what you mean?

“Look first for your spirit”

I have no idea what you mean by “spirit”. Can you define what you mean?

” the image of God”

Again, you are talking undefined gibberish.

” before you can expect to see God, who is spirit right there, all around you. ”

So god is a spirit ( whatever you mean by that… I have NO idea) and god can be seen?

Which god are you talking about? According to the Bible, if god was seen by a person, that person would die. So if you can see god, it isn’t the god of the Bible.

Herm

God does not threaten any of Man with Hell and eternal punishment, period. Churches of Man do.

Herm

I have no idea what you mean by “spirit”.

This is obvious.

Why are you here if “spirit” means nothing to you?

I truly hope you find some fulfillment during the remainder of your flesh.

Herm

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 16:12-13

Thanks John, … and to think that mankind was not conscious of any of this 1,950 years ago when Revelations was written.

BartNedelman

I love the whacko conclusion of the iffy premises of the first sentence of this article. I stopped reading this theological Waldorf salad after three sentences. Consider: children’s funerals are god’s way of telling you your prayers don’t do zip. The article is absolute nonsense. True faith is telling the driver – as they load you into the back of the ambulance – to take you to a church instead of the emergency room. …may the Farce be with you.

Herm I agree with you mankind felt the spirit 1,950 years ago, but now the young identify with their mind thinking they are their thoughts so the consciousness of the soul the all pervading energy is not experienced so science can give them direction that relaxes the mind so they can become aware that they are a soul with a mind and not a mind with a soul.

BertB

That is an interesting perspective. So you are saying that the “Churches of Man” do not represent the position of God with regard to belief and eternal punishment. Then…what can we conclude from this?
If we reject those “Churches of Man,”…then what?
Please tell us where we go from here.

Herm

Thanks Bert, for asking me. I can only share what worked for me.

Don’t shut out previous seeking of Man, flesh, for a relationship for God, spirit. It seems as there is no other animal species on earth who actually sense to seek spiritual relationship.

Mankind can sense an aware and influential entity we refer to as deity/Allah/God who is not finite physical but is infinite, no beginning or end, spirit.

As simply put as I can answer you, seek, knock and ask of God (a plurality as is Man) in all the humility of a new born, know nothing, child, what you just asked me. You will be answered.

A quote of Jesus, which predates Jesus, sums up when we have arrived to appreciate eternal relationship in the Spirit, and to be eternally appreciated is: in everything, do first to all others of Man and God as you would have all others do to you. Know that all of God abides first in this summation of the law of constructive and productive life for all time.

God is inclusive of all who can truly love God with all their spirit selves, their merciful neighbors, their enemies and themselves. Unfortunately churches are only inclusive of those who abide in their each individual theology (study of God without God as their personal teacher). God’s church has no theology, as families bound together in love have no theology. God is a potential eternal relationship of shared adventure complete with moments of shared reflection and savor of life.

You asked. This works for me in all the truth I can bear in my infancy as an accepted child of God.

BertB

I appreciate your answer, but I have a few comments in response:

Mankind can sense an aware and influential entity we refer to as deity…

I cannot sense any such deity.. From my earliest childhood exposure to the Christian religion, I found it no more believable than childhood fairy tales. Many people share your “sense,” but a growing number are rejecting the whole idea of supernatural beings.
I do not know how to “knock and ask.” Instead, for the 82 years of my life, I have looked for any…ANY…evidence of supernatural beings, and have found none. Nor do I need any to find “meaning” in my life. Indeed, following the commands of a supernatural dictator would diminish my own individual quest for meaning….if I were seeking such a thing.
Quoting the mythical figure Jesus is meaningless to me. I have no idea what you mean by “spirit.” But I appreciate your paraphrase of the Golden Rule, which far predates the emergence of Christianity, of course. It is a sensible and moral rule to live by.
I have no need for religious belief to find the “meaning” in my life. It is, quite simply: first, to enjoy life; second to nurture friends and family, and third, to contribute to society in ways that I find meaningful. One of those is my writings here in this blog, where I have, I hope, helped some people realize that superstitious beliefs in deities add nothing of value to the human condition, and often are the source of conflict and divisiveness. That is certainly evident at the moment.

Herm

Bert, you are obviously loving of others and sincere. I do relate in spirit but believe you are no less constructive and productive for mankind than I simply because you’ve tried and have no sense of spirit beyond physical.

Life (awareness and influence) for each of us is an opportunity. Each of us are guaranteed to cease to be aware and influential in this flesh we do realize. Mankind has no reason, that we’re capable of understanding, to cease in combined awareness and influence if each us invests in our species to grow and adapt as one bound in selfless love. If all of us chose as you appear to be choosing mankind could potentially live forever. Thank you for your service! Love you

BertB

In a sense, we do live on…in the genes of our children and theirs. And possibly, for awhile at least, in the memories of friends and family. A few exceptional people…writers, composers, artists, etc…leave a lasting legacy. I have no such illusions of grandeur.
But I am almost certain that my consciousness, and all of my memories, will cease to exist when I die. Note that I say “almost” certain. I am certain that there is no credible evidence that any “spirit” will outlive me. But nobody can say for certain. It is the same with the existence of a deity, of course. I am an atheist, but atheists come in many flavors. I do not claim that I am certain that God does not exist. But based on the total lack of evidence, I doubt it. I am skeptical, to say the least.
I just finished a chapter in Stephen Hawking’s final book, titled “Brief Answers to the Big Questions.”
The first chapter is titled, “Is There a God?” Hawking was a brilliant scientist, and his answer, as you might expect, is a resounding NO! How he arrives at that is too long to describe here. I suggest that you buy the book and explore his ideas.

C_Alan_Nault

You forgot to include your definition for spirit. I ask for your definition because everyone that uses the word seems to have their own definition for what they mean.

“Why are you here if “spirit” means nothing to you?”

To learn, So far, from you I have learned that you:

1) think we have more eyes than the ones in our head.

“You look with eyes of flesh, not heart and mind of spirit.”

2) believe we have a spirit… but seem to be unable to define what the word means to you

3) believe a god exists… but offer no evidence to support that belief

” before you can expect to see God”

4) believe this god is a spirit ( whatever that is, you haven’t defined your term) and is all around us

” who is spirit right there, all around you. ”

Also, I am here to give you & others an opportunity to follow what the Bible teaches in 1 Peter 3:15 ” but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, ready at any time to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.”

So far, you have offered nothing to make me take your beliefs seriously.

Ed Senter

Hey herm, I see that you are still preaching that pantheistic Hinduism and are butchering the meaning of John 16.

Jesus taught the All-mighty Supreme Being and that he was the only way to the Father. All man can do is faith.

Ed Senter

Why do you keep us dangling?
How do we “unwrap the presence”?
Are we to stare at the sun or what not?

Herm

Ed, I see that you still have not seen to accept the Advocate as Jesus promised in John 16. I know my Father in me and I in him. The only faith is the trust that I will never be left orphaned as I now am certain a child of God born of the Spirit. Even my brother, the Christ, saw to accept the Spirit of truth to begin his ministry healing the relationship between God and Man.

Good luck with your faith in a God who you don’t know for sure with and in you right now.

Herm

1 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, [16] keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

I have the hope that I have because I know that I am a little infant child of God, who is not flesh but is spirit, well nurtured, never to be left orphaned.

The best I can explain (define?) spirit is that awareness and influence which exists within and outside the finite bounds of physical awareness and influence.

You seem to depend upon “exceptionalism” of mankind to be able to accept responsiblity for its survival within the physical. Not one of Man exceeds 120 revolutions of our puny earth around its dim sun in awareness and influence, yet in a reality of no beginning and no end the evolving species of mankind is not even a small speck of significance within the spectrum of awareness and influence past.

There is infinitely more than you are presently aware of and all the influence you can share within your physical constraints is insignificant compared to what mankind has already applied.

Matthew 23:11-12 NIV
The greatest among you will be your servant. [12] For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

I am smart and pragmatic enough to know how pitifully little I know to be able to survive left to my own resources gifted me. As a child of physical Man I am an adult certain to die. As a child of spirit God I am a relatively helpless infant promised to be taught and nurtured without pause and without end as I can bear.

I do not expect you to understand what I am sharing. Please, understand that I am as educated with applied experience in the physical sciences as you. I am not naive nor living some kind of fantasy in spiritual sciences.

Herm

Thanks Bert. I have read lots of Stephen Hawking and love his applied reasoning very much. I am aware, heard it from his own computer, that, in the last year of his life, he was asked directly if something existed before the big bang. He replied that there must be but could not be proven with the tools available to us at this time. That is the best I can paraphrase what he said.

Our higher math can define infinity and eternity as possible but is unable quantify either.

BertB

In the book, he dismisses the idea of anything “before” the Big Bang because time did not exist. The Universe is a space-time continuum, as Einstein said. Hawking shows that time stops at the center of a Black Hole, and the singularity that existed prior to the Big Bang was a Black Hole where time did not exist. It’s a hard concept for us to understand, because our life experience is based on time. This is Hawking’s main argument against the existence of God. I have not done his argument justice here. You need to read the whole thing.
I’ll give you one short quote: from the last page of Chapter 1:

When people ask me if God created the Universe, I tell them that the question doesn’t make any sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth…the Earth is a sphere that doesn’t have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.

BertB

With all due respect, Herm, quoting the Bible at people here is a waste of your time. Most of us, me included, have no interest in it, because we know about the multitude of contradictions, factual errors, immoralities (slavery, atrocious killings of innocent women and children, etc.) and the like that have been pointed out. You would do better by sticking to logic and reason for your arguments if you want people to listen to you.
Otherwise, you will be viewed as just another crank who has come here to antagonize people.

C_Alan_Nault

“I have the hope that I have because I know that I am a little infant child of God”

Unless you can prove this god actually exists all you can honestly say is you BELIEVE it… you don’t KNOW it.

“The best I can explain (define?) spirit is that awareness and influence which exists within and outside the finite bounds of physical awareness and influence.”

In other words, a consciousness ( of some sort) that exists within and outside the finite bounds of physical awareness and influence.

Well, unless you can prove an awareness( consciousness) can exist outside the finite bounds of physical awareness ( in other words, a consciousness that exists without being the product of & existing within a physical brain), your definition is meaningless gibberish.

“You seem to depend upon “exceptionalism” of mankind to be able to accept responsiblity for its survival within the physical. ”

1) I never said that, why are you trying to change the topic
2) what evidence can you present for the existence of a god?

“There is infinitely more than you are presently aware of ”

No doubt. And the same applies top you. The question remains… does a god exist?

Do you have any evidence for the existence of a god?

“Matthew 23:11-12 ”

What’s your point? I can easily quote passages from the Hindu Vedas. So what?

“I am smart and pragmatic enough to know how pitifully little I know to be able to survive left to my own resources gifted me. ”

And this proves a god exists?

“As a child of physical Man I am an adult certain to die.”

And this proves a god exists?

” As a child of spirit God I am a relatively helpless infant promised to be taught and nurtured without pause and without end as I can bear.”

More claims, no evidence to prove the claims.

“I do not expect you to understand what I am sharing.”

Unless you have evidence to prove this god exists, what you are sharing is fables & myths.

“I am not naive nor living some kind of fantasy in spiritual sciences.”

Says the person who also said:

” I know that I am a little infant child of God, who is not flesh but is spirit,”

“As a child of spirit God”

Herm

Bert, you have come along way on your logic and reasoning to toward truth. This is valued by all of us here, thank you for sharing in love and respect with us.

Perhaps, you didn’t notice but we don’t hide when we quote anyone’s previous writings when it conveys a value better than we could have shared it. This is a forum founded on misrepresentation of values we each have gleaned from the “Christian Bible” to have truth when applied. Don’t expect anyone here to plagiarize that Bible when it portrays our logic and reasoning better than we can.

Mankind’s reasoning and logic shared has come a really long way considering it has had less than 25 million years to get where we are today.

The quote I shared, when tested and considered, served me to realize humility goes much further toward a more successful quest for truth than exalting our pride of human “exceptionalism” in reasoning and logic.

Herm

I cannot prove you exist and yet we have conversed enough that you would smell the same by any name.

I know my Father because we converse. We do not share our each distinctive awareness and influence (life) in the language of flesh, but of spirit. I am not hearing my heavenly Father’s. We share each other’s presents with and in each. I would know my Father by any name.

BertB

I do not doubt that you get consolation and comfort from the Bible. Quoting writings by other individuals is part of the debate process. Those sources are subject to review, and acceptance or rejection by others.
Quoting the Bible, an ancient book of doubtful origin, is different. Surely you realize that people here are not receptive to it, so insisting on making those quotes is viewed as “in your face” proselytization. As you can see from the response just above, it will cause people to reject your other arguments, so it is really counter-productive to do it. There are lots of other blogs where Bible quotes are welcome.

Herm

Bert, where do you believe you are commenting on? Have you read Keith’s books? I am confused, this is a progressive Christian blog. Why are you counseling me not to quote the Christian Bible?

I do not believe that this book is inerrant and is no more than Man’s sincere testimony in relationship with God.

BertB

So be it. We are done.

C_Alan_Nault

“I cannot prove you exist and yet we have conversed enough that you would smell the same by any name.”

I am a human being. We know human beings exist. No one has presented any evidence that a god exists.

“I know my Father because we converse”

Does he reply to you, and can you record his reply so others can hear his response & verify that he replied to you? If not, your claim can be dismissed as you talking to yourself and deluding yourself that it is a two-way conversation.

“but of spirit”

Another undefined word that is meaningless because you have not defined it.

Ed Senter

If by “Christ” you mean Christ Jesus, I don’t know which spirit is you have because Christ Jesus is Lord and not anyone’s brother.

It was Christ’s death on the cross that healed the relationship between God and Man. The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was the public pronouncement of Jesus Christ the Messiah to his people the Jews who rejected him. Jesus always had the Spirit because he was God.
You seem to recognize only one verse in the Bible and that’s too bad.

Herm

Ed, you wrote, “If by “Christ” you mean Christ Jesus, I don’t know which spirit is you have because Christ Jesus is Lord and not anyone’s brother.”

Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mark 3:31-35

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 12:46-50

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:25-27

I am an accepted student (disciple) of my one Instructor, the Christ, my brother, by the will of our one Father who is in heaven, baptized (filled) with and in the Spirit of truth, the one Teacher, without pause, without end. If “It was Christ’s death on the cross that healed the relationship between God and Man“, as you say, why must all of Christ’s family (sister, brother, mother) on earth carry their own cross today, according to “the Bible”?

You wrote, “The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was the public pronouncement of Jesus Christ the Messiah to his people the Jews who rejected him. Jesus always had the Spirit because he was God.”

At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

Mark 1:9-13

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 3:16-17

When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Luke 3:21-23

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

John 1:29-34 (NIV2011)

Ed, you test me and yet you do not read my responses. I have shared these, and dozen’s of other pertinent scripture verses from your “Christian Bible”, with you before. Yet, you accuse me of standing on one verse only. I stand only on the lessons taught me directly by my divine family, born (baptized) of the the Spirit a child of God by Christ.

What are you defending? It certainly isn’t from the Spirit of truth. You’re not letting Jesus help you.

Ed Senter

Does not Jesus currently sit at the right hand of God, his glory being restored?
“The Lord said to my lord,
“Sit here at my right side
until I put your enemies under your feet.” Psalm 110

Yes, Jesus became man and was one of us during his Earthly ministry. But, he rose and he is now our LORD. For you to continue to refer to him as “brother” means that you deny his divinity.
Yes, Jesus said, “carry their cross and FOLLOW ME”. To “carry one’s cross” is to deny self. No man can please God on his own. He must deny self and trust Jesus as the way to the Father.
When did Jesus know he was the Messiah? Was Jesus just walking down the road one day and accidently run into John the Baptist, or did he always know? Again, the way you put it is to deny that Jesus was divine.

Your experiences do nothing for me and nothing for anyone else if they are honest. What I seek and what I believe the Bible teaches are objective truths that anyone can follow. Whereas for you, I must believe that you actually talk to God or whatever. Too many fakes to number.
I have the Spirit of truth. How do I know? Because I faith on God’s word. I believe the promise of eternal life for all those who follow and put their trust in Christ Jesus. “For with the heart man believe, and by the mouth proclaim Jesus is Lord unto salvation.”

Herm

Ed, Google everywhere in your Bible where Jesus speaks about the Spirit (including of truth, Holy, etc.). Read the scripture in full context. I have shared most with you before and you shine all references on. Google how many teachers, instructors, and fathers every disciple of Christ is to listen to.

For both of us, show me where in the Bible Jesus tells us to follow any scripture instead of accepting him in us and us in him, please.

I am not telling you to follow me. I am boldly speaking the word of God (which is not a physical book you call the Bible) because I, my heart, soul, mind, is filled with the Holy Spirit.

No where does Jesus say that you will inherit eternal life, be saved, if you believe scripture. You can only be saved to inherit eternal life if you are baptized (filled) by the Holy Spirit.

Show me otherwise by the quoted words of the Messiah, please.

Ed Senter

I never said that the scriptures were the way to eternal life and salvation. I have always said that Jesus was the way. Like Jesus said, the scriptures are a WITNESS about him. Jesus fulfilled the pertinent scriptures. He pointed to Jonah as proof of his resurrection. He quoted Isaiah 61 as having fulfilled that partial verse. He referred to Daniel as to what would happen to the temple. Jesus constantly referred back to scripture.
You want scriptures?- Scriptures recorded by ordinary men of events that they either personally witnessed or heard about or possibly made up?
The Bible is a collection of books that record God’s word. How do we know? We take it by faith and it makes sense. Besides, it is the only testimony we have that Jesus was who he said he was. Because God fulfilled his promises as to past events, we know he will fulfill his promises on events yet to come.

You say you have the Holy Spirit. How do you know? How do you objectively relate your experience to anyone else? Jesus said that there would be many false prophets and to not be deceived. How do you know you have not fallen victim to one of these false prophets? How do you know you are following God’s word and not doctrines of men?
I know my answer.

Herm

Ed, do you believe God is real, alive, and available to you?

If this conversation between you and I is serious, not a debate in fantasy, then you either seek a God who will return after a 1,950 year hiatus or you can’t trust them to be directly honest with you.

I have shown you where Jesus spoke to non-God quotes in Old Testament scripture (usurped authority) following every time he began with “you’ve heard it said”, like an eye for an eye that God, according to the Son, never said.

Do you really want to know how I know that I am not filled with a false holy spirit? When I accepted the Spirit of truth to live with me and in me without pause, without end, I directly asked Jesus and my heavenly Father to protect me from evil. They have never since left me orphaned, without continual nurture and protection. Since then, 24 years ago, the Spirit of truth has led me into all truth as I can bear. I found that those teachers of the law who teach their Bible interpretations are the false teachers. True disciples of the Messiah teach others to accept the Spirit of truth as the only true teacher of God. True disciples of Jesus lead others to be filled (whelmed, baptized) with and in the Holy Spirit without pause eternally.

John 5:39-40 NIV
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, [40] yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Ed Senter

You sound like a Hindu priest rather than a true disciple of the Messiah.
How would anyone know what “Messiah” meant if they did not have at least a rudimentary knowledge of scripture?
You might as well tell me that Jesus cured your drug addiction. That has no meaning to me since I have never been a drug addict. Besides, that would be nothing but a personal testimony, totally subjective, like a snake oil salesman peddling his wares.

The scriptures, nor the Law, provide eternal life. But the one whom the scriptures proclaim, Christ Jesus, is the way to eternal life. Believe on him and that God raised him from the dead, and you shall be saved.
Did the Holy Spirit teach me that? Sure he did. He led me to the scriptures and I understood.
Did I gain that understanding staring at the sun? No.

Herm

“How would anyone know what “Messiah” meant if they did not have at least a rudimentary knowledge of scripture?”

When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 28:17-20 (NIV2011)

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Matthew 23:8-12 (KJV)

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Matthew 23:8-12 (NIV2011)

Ed, both translations of the original Greek are wrong here if taken literally. Which did you grow up to believe is the true “word of God”?

In the King James Version the capitalized “Master” is taken from “διδάσκαλος”, which definitively means “Teacher”. The word
“masters” is taken from “καθηγηταί,”, which definitively means “instructors”. The second use of the word “master” is taken from
“καθηγητὴς” which definitively means “[one] instructor”. The first use of the phrase “even Christ” does not exist in the original writing. The second use of the phrase “even Christ” is taken from “Χριστός.” which is defined by the following:

from (chrio); anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus :- Christ.

Strong’s Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

… and that is where the New International Version is wrong, if taken literally, for “Christos” might better have been translated “Christ” than “Messiah”. To have translated to have used word “Messiah”, as is in the the book of John, the original Greek word would have been “Μεσσίας”:

Did I gain that understanding staring at the sun? No. I gained that and much more understanding because I am being taught in all truth as I can bear by the Spirit of truth living with and in me. Truth is not to be gained from the perspective of little children, as compared to the maturity of God, all of Man are. God is spirit. Man is flesh. The scriptures, even though chronicling a growing relationship with God, is written by those of the flesh. God doesn’t have many different languages of interpretive words for they speak purely through the spirit of heart, soul, mind living with and in one another without pause or end. God is bound as one in all love today one earth as it is in heaven.

You took scripture totally out of context to make your case of flesh when you said, “But the one whom the scriptures proclaim, Christ Jesus, is the way to eternal life. Believe on him and that God raised him from the dead, and you shall be saved.

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 10:8-13 (NIV2011)

If Jesus, Lord only because our Father gave him all authority in heaven and on earth, is not in you, that you know to love him with all you heart, soul, mind of spirit, then all that you proclaim from your mouth of flesh is no more than hope and conjecture based on your intellect of fleshly logic, trained and framed by Man, not God.

“How would anyone know what “Messiah” meant if they did not have at least a rudimentary knowledge of scripture?”

After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

There was no scripture that the pointed to to speak the word of God boldly. In many ways, speaking as a child for myself, it seems like the Bible has done much more harm than good. The Holy Spirit is still waiting to fill you so that you, too, could speak the word of God boldly, without referring to any translation of the Bible. You refuse to acknowledge what is clearly chronicled in the Bible only to continue to hope your blind faith will save you from what you don’t seem to know. Just what are you being saved from and then to do what?

God is real. God is alive and directly interfacing with all who find the truth of spirit (the image of God graced Man), as versus the manipulation, intimidation and subjugation of the flesh. No, Ed, you do not know the Spirit of truth living with and in you. You do not know Jesus and the Father in you and you in them. You still define heaven and the kingdom in terms of flesh, not spirit.

God, my Father, my Lord and brother Jesus the Christ, and all humbly born of the Spirit as little children of God are worshiped today only in the spirit. All of us in the God of spirit have only one Teacher, one Father and one Instructor. God is here and did not leave any of us orphaned to return some unknown time in the future. Please, wake up!

Ed Senter

” Just what are you being saved from and then to do what?”

I am being saved from death- more specifically, the second death of the spirit- and my purpose is to worship God, the only true All-Mighty Supreme Being. Because Adam believed a lie instead of trusting (faithing) God, all men must work for a living then experience the fleshly death.
What are you being saved from, herm, and what is your purpose?

btw, what were the Jews anticipating and expecting from the Messiah?
See Daniel 9:25,26 and Daniel 7:13
They were expecting Him to come in the clouds to set up an everlasting Kingdom and the time as specified by Daniel was at hand. They just had not expected the Messiah to come first as a suffering servant because they had ignored those scriptures from Isaiah 53.
Why did Jesus say that he came to fulfill scripture if no one was to know the scripture? Jesus came first for the Jew, and they had the scriptures.

Herm, your personal experiences tell me nothing because they are subjective to you. Whereas, the Bible provides objective criteria by which anyone can learn and test any supposed ‘spirit’ you claim to espouse. Tell me something new, herm.

Herm

Thank you Ed, for your reply,

I am being saved from death- more specifically, the second death of the spirit- and my purpose is to worship God, the only true All-Mighty Supreme Being. Because Adam believed a lie instead of trusting (faithing) God, all men must work for a living then experience the fleshly death.

Ed Senter 11JAN18

You do not consider yourself a child of God?

You believe Adam was a real individual within the history of mankind?

You do not believe that all the we know as our physical environment, the universe, began approximately 13.8 billion years ago?

You do not believe that the earth is approximately 4.543 years old?

You do not believe that the modern form of humans evolved about 200,000 years ago?

You do not believe this in reference to the Fertile Crescent, found in Wikipedia (and elsewhere), “Neolithic farming settlements (referred to as Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), which date to around 9,000 BCE (and includes sites such as Göbekli Tepe and Jericho)”?

You believe a Father of love would sentence his child to death for believing the lie of another child?

All my reply above are intentionally posed as questions.

Ed, you asked,

What are you being saved from, herm, and what is your purpose?

I am saved from the pitfalls of lies of the likes of Pharisees, Sadducee, teachers of the law, manipulators, intimidators, confusers, con artists, subjugators because I have been completely filled with the Spirit of truth living with and in me forever, as is my heavenly Father, brother Jesus, and all of God.

My purpose, as a maturing child of God, is to love and be loved by all of God in Spirit and in truth for the remainder of eternity. I adore God as God adores me, bound as one in all love.

Ed, from my perspective, your “All-Mighty Supreme Being” is much like the demanding and wrathful god portrayed in the Old Testament that Jesus, the Christ, convincingly contrasted with the perfect Father as not the God he is the only begotten Son of.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV2011)

Ed Senter

Do you want me to answer those questions, herm, because I most certainly can, and my answers won’t be of the kind you would expect since you apparently don’t care much for traditional Christianity?
This may be news to you, but you are going to die just like the rest of us. So, whether one believes the Omnipotent Being “sentenced” us to this fait like I do, or maybe you believe death is just part of the circle of life to enlightenment, it does not matter. The truth is we die.
Now, from my perspective, herm, you are a liar. You can not mix the God of the Bible (whom you have so poorly characterized) with your pantheistic or panentheistic beliefs like you are trying to do.
Just what is the true basis of your beliefs? If you tell me “the Spirit”, then you have just as likely fallen for a false spirit.
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. He is not demanding nor wrathful. But if you don’t recognize him as the Creator and Sustainer of all things, why would he want to keep you around? Paul said in one of his letters: “They began to worship the creation instead of the Creator to their doom.” Is that what you have done, herm?

Herm

Yes, I would appreciate an answer to each question, please.

Ed Senter

“You do not consider yourself a child of God?”
1. I acknowledge and worship my Creator and Sustainer of all things, the one true All-Mighty Supreme Being as revealed by Jesus Christ.

“You believe Adam was a real individual within the history of mankind?”
2. I see no reason not to believe Adam was a real individual. He was the first man to be created in God’s image.

“You do not believe that all the we know as our physical environment, the universe, began approximately 13.8 billion years ago?”
3. I have no idea how old the universe is. 13.8 billion years seems reasonable.

“You do not believe that the earth is approximately 4.543 billion years old?”
4. I have no idea how old the Earth is. 4.543 billion years seems reasonable. There is the possibility of an enormous amount of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

“You do not believe that the modern form of humans evolved about 200,000 years ago?”
5. That is what they say and I see no reason not to believe it. The Genesis story says God created Adam- the first man to be created in God’s image. God could have used evolution, as some claim, for his purposes. I have heard that over 95% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct.

“You do not believe this in reference to the Fertile Crescent, found in Wikipedia (and elsewhere), “Neolithic farming settlements (referred to as Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA), which date to around 9,000 BCE (and includes sites such as Göbekli Tepe and Jericho)”?”
6. See answer 5. What does it mean “in God’s image”? Is this where God interjected his Spirit into man? Adam was created in God’s image. He was the first. The Garden of Eden was most likely in this Fertile Crescent.

‘You believe a Father of love would sentence his child to death for believing the lie of another child?”
7. God is loving, but the one attribute that makes him God is omnipotence. God created all for a purpose. In that sense, all has worth and it is inherent. We can only understand this as love. God created this physical world for man. There was no death. The only condition for continued communion with God was to respect God’s position as Creator and Sustainer. God gave man freedom but reserved the right to limit that freedom. And, that was the forbidden fruit. God said: It’s mine. Leave it alone and you will enjoy everlasting life. Eat it and you will die.
Adam believed a lie (from the sinister serpent that he would be “as God”), so God, the source of all life, separated himself from his creation (That is why this is a fallen world); then, set up the means by which man could commune and be restored to God (the redemption process).

The entire Bible, from beginning to end, is God reconciling the world to himself. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”

Herm

Ed, why did you withdraw your answers?

Ed Senter

I didn’t do anything. So, I reposted my answers.

BertB

Other people have reported that their comments mysteriously disappeared recently. I think the web site has a problem.