I have a 30m rope I do a single strand rappel from. There is a biner block at the rappel rings at the sling. There is a retrieval cord of 30m as well.

I put a small rappel ring and a larger rappel ring on the sling

To retrieve the rope I pull on the retrieval cord, then pull on the rope. At the end of the rope there is a small ring. By pulling the rope down, this end of the rope rises higher and then tries to go through the rappel rings at the sling.

The small ring at the end of the rope then goes through the large rappel ring on the sling. Then it gets caught in the second smaller rappel ring, and the whole sling and rope come down to me.

I have a 30m rope I do a single strand rappel from. There is a biner block at the rappel rings at the sling. There is a retrieval cord of 30m as well.

I put a small rappel ring and a larger rappel ring on the sling

To retrieve the rope I pull on the retrieval cord, then pull on the rope. At the end of the rope there is a small ring. By pulling the rope down, this end of the rope rises higher and then tries to go through the rappel rings at the sling.

The small ring at the end of the rope then goes through the large rappel ring on the sling. Then it gets caught in the second smaller rappel ring, and the whole sling and rope come down to me.

Is this a feasible idea to recover both rope and rappel sling?

I don't know what your describing but my nuts just sucked up into my stomach.

Where's Majid when you need "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one" ?

Explaining what each one was... and not to mention the aerial photography.

Edited to add:

And oh yeah, to the OP.. YER GONNA DIE.

P.S. It sounds like a bad idea. Just go with a tried and true method. You don't want your whole contraption coming undone while bouncing down the rappel.

I'm rappelling on the biner block. The "innovation" is the retrieval method. Not necessarily safe but on the rappel I am no more in danger of falling than I would be on any biner block. Here is a picture of a biner block. This is a pretty vanilla and well established technique.

rtwilli4 wrote:

What is it with people making new accounts and automatically coming on here with this kind of shit?

Maybe because they recognize they don't have complete knowledge and want to ask questions? Maybe because they don't expect this forum to be full of troll greeters?

I thought my description would be familiar to those who know what a retrievable anchor is, and those who didn't would keep their ignorance to themselves. I free solo backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure, so I guess I have bigger balls and I also know more. Here's your troll food:

Where's Majid when you need "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one" ?

Explaining what each one was... and not to mention the aerial photography.

Edited to add:

And oh yeah, to the OP.. YER GONNA DIE.

P.S. It sounds like a bad idea. Just go with a tried and true method. You don't want your whole contraption coming undone while bouncing down the rappel.

I'm rappelling on the biner block. The "innovation" is the retrieval method. Not necessarily safe but on the rappel I am no more in danger of falling than I would be on any biner block. Here is a picture of a biner block. This is a pretty vanilla and well established technique.

What is it with people making new accounts and automatically coming on here with this kind of shit?

Maybe because they recognize they don't have complete knowledge and want to ask questions? Maybe because they don't expect this forum to be full of troll greeters?

I thought my description would be familiar to those who know what a retrievable anchor is, and those who didn't would keep their ignorance to themselves. I free solo backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure, so I guess I have bigger balls and I also know more. Here's your troll food:

Why dont you take a picture of whatever dumb ass clap trap you are proposing so we can actually understand how dumb it may be. All it sounds like you are doing is trying to save $1.39 plus tax to have a high likelihood of snagging your rope.

Oh and instead of asking us retards why don't you actually test this rube goldberg sling retrieval method yourself in a safe environment?

Why dont you take a picture of whatever dumb ass clap trap you are proposing so we can actually understand how dumb it may be.

Do you really want me to get out my camera to take a picture of a rap sling with different sized rappel rings in it? Really, you've never seen a rope with a rap ring in a bight?

Sound's like you've never rapped off a biner block in your life so maybe you should stop screaming how ignorant you are.

wwalt822 wrote:

All it sounds like you are doing is trying to save $1.39 plus tax to have a high likelihood of snagging your rope.

Actually after climbing three or five peaks on a week trip to some remote backcountry cirque which I had to hike 20 miles to, I would have done maybe 5-20 rappels. So I would save some change, but importantly not have to hike in garbage on the mountain for other people to clean up.

It's poor form, rude, and literally illegal to leave sling in some places. Do you want a picture of that concept as well?

wwalt822 wrote:

Oh and instead of asking us retards why don't you actually test this rube goldberg sling retrieval method yourself in a safe environment?

Of course I have. It worked fine, because 5 feet off the ground anything works. Now I've come here to ask informed people their opinion. That doesn't include you.

You people are hilarious. I don't mind the forum popo but let me know when one of you comes in that is informed.

Why dont you take a picture of whatever dumb ass clap trap you are proposing so we can actually understand how dumb it may be.

Do you really want me to get out my camera to take a picture of a rap sling with different sized rappel rings in it? Really, you've never seen a rope with a rap ring in a bight?

Sound's like you've never rapped off a biner block in your life so maybe you should stop screaming how ignorant you are.

wwalt822 wrote:

All it sounds like you are doing is trying to save $1.39 plus tax to have a high likelihood of snagging your rope.

Actually after climbing three or five peaks on a week trip to some remote backcountry cirque which I had to hike 20 miles to, I would have done maybe 5-20 rappels. So I would save some change, but importantly not have to hike in garbage on the mountain for other people to clean up.

It's poor form, rude, and literally illegal to leave sling in some places. Do you want a picture of that concept as well?

wwalt822 wrote:

Oh and instead of asking us retards why don't you actually test this rube goldberg sling retrieval method yourself in a safe environment?

Of course I have. It worked fine, because 5 feet off the ground anything works. Now I've come here to ask informed people their opinion. That doesn't include you.

You people are hilarious. I don't mind the forum popo but let me know when one of you comes in that is informed.

Why dont you take a picture of whatever dumb ass clap trap you are proposing so we can actually understand how dumb it may be.

Do you really want me to get out my camera to take a picture of a rap sling with different sized rappel rings in it? Really, you've never seen a rope with a rap ring in a bight?

Sound's like you've never rapped off a biner block in your life so maybe you should stop screaming how ignorant you are.

wwalt822 wrote:

All it sounds like you are doing is trying to save $1.39 plus tax to have a high likelihood of snagging your rope.

Actually after climbing three or five peaks on a week trip to some remote backcountry cirque which I had to hike 20 miles to, I would have done maybe 5-20 rappels. So I would save some change, but importantly not have to hike in garbage on the mountain for other people to clean up.

It's poor form, rude, and literally illegal to leave sling in some places. Do you want a picture of that concept as well?

wwalt822 wrote:

Oh and instead of asking us retards why don't you actually test this rube goldberg sling retrieval method yourself in a safe environment?

Of course I have. It worked fine, because 5 feet off the ground anything works. Now I've come here to ask informed people their opinion. That doesn't include you.

You people are hilarious. I don't mind the forum popo but let me know when one of you comes in that is informed.

Then please post a video of this so we can all see how you are the next Yvon Chouinard.

I haven't rapped off a biner block but I fully understand how it works. I'm pretty sure I understand your sequence of events here but I don't see how it wont actually get caught up in itself

You did a really bad job of explaining your method, but I think I understand it.

For as much shit as you're talking Marmot, I would expect you to realize that if your sling+large rap ring+small rap ring cluster gets stuck on the pull, you will then have no climbing rope. The reason that the method you linked to is used, is because they can still save the climbing rope even if the cluster gets stuck.

The only reason you seem to be bothering to come up with this method is to avoid bringing along an extra 30 meter of cord, yes? I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

What is it with people making new accounts and automatically coming on here with this kind of shit?

Maybe because they recognize they don't have complete knowledge and want to ask questions? Maybe because they don't expect this forum to be full of troll greeters?

I thought my description would be familiar to those who know what a retrievable anchor is, and those who didn't would keep their ignorance to themselves. I free solo backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure, so I guess I have bigger balls and I also know more. Here's your troll food:

Low class 5 dude? Come on. Any self respecting climber does that on a regular basis any time they need to move fast. Don't come on here acting all high and mighty because you've spend a bit of time on an alpine ridge. And Don't give me the whole "I have bigger balls than you, and I know more" bullshit. The only thing that free soloing "backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure" proves is that you can't find partners and that your ego is bigger than mine.

If you had come on here and introduced yourself, and/or made some contributions to the site (since you are probably the most knowledgeable one here, 'cuz you free solo alpine routes), then maybe people would have responded a little better.

Low class 5 dude? Come on. Any self respecting climber does that on a regular basis any time they need to move fast. Don't come on here acting all high and mighty because you've spend a bit of time on an alpine ridge. And Don't give me the whole "I have bigger balls than you, and I know more" bullshit. The only thing that free soloing "backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure" proves is that you can't find partners and that your ego is bigger than mine.

If you had come on here and introduced yourself, and/or made some contributions to the site (since you are probably the most knowledgeable one here, 'cuz you free solo alpine routes), then maybe people would have responded a little better.

Don't change the subject and cling to my words "free solo", which has members of your little tribe seeing red.

Getting better responses? I asked a neutral technical question and it's immediately sorted to the "shit" pile by your highness. Haha, I guess I should get on my knees and wipe my chin in a few threads before begging a simple question to this forum from the self-appointed gatekeepers. Oh yeah, also clearly I don't have friends because I'm going solo on a trip or two.

We can all solo a few feet at a craig with buddies, cell phones and city nearby. It's a little different completing a half mile long alpine climb 20 miles from the next human being, dangling from a loose, dirty chute that has seen 2 ascents in the last 12 months because the peak you're on is obscure but the last one for you to climb in the valley. You're tired from the 15 mile, 5000 foot approach the last day, crummy sleep and the bracing alpine start on the early summer morning. Your cold feet in crampons working your way up the chute, biting into the icy crust that but could easily melt on the descent into the consistency of a slushie. That's the danger and thats the experience, being solo is part of it. I'd like to see you on route and run your mouth about how trivial that is.

Don't talk to me about "climbers saving time" because that's not what a solitary and isolated alpine route is like. Me mentioning free solo was a mistake because this was never about bragging. I'm no sport climber and I don't pretend to have any super technical skills than comfort at soloing low 5.

moose_droppings wrote:

Feed 60m rope around block, rap, pull rope.

Leave pull rope and extra rings at home instead of getting the whole mess stuck at top.

wwalt822 wrote:

Then please post a video of this so we can all see how you are the next Yvon Chouinard.

I haven't rapped off a biner block but I fully understand how it works. I'm pretty sure I understand your sequence of events here but I don't see how it wont actually get caught up in itself

spikeddem wrote:

You did a really bad job of explaining your method, but I think I understand it.

For as much shit as you're talking Marmot, I would expect you to realize that if your sling+large rap ring+small rap ring cluster gets stuck on the pull, you will then have no climbing rope. The reason that the method you linked to is used, is because they can still save the climbing rope even if the cluster gets stuck.

The only reason you seem to be bothering to come up with this method is to avoid bringing along an extra 30 meter of cord, yes? I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

Good point in these posts, and I'll keep it in mind...I can get the rope stuck with all the extra gear hanging at the end. But I've rarely had problems pulling. Most of the rappels are short (30-50 feet) and I'm way above any vegetation of any kind. A biner block is alot larger in bulk than even the my largest rappel ring, naturally, so maybe adding it and some webbing doesn't seem to be a dramatic problem.

There is also one important difference..I free climbed the low grade route up...seriously, unlike many rappels I have the luxury of simply climbing back up and lifting my rope from the top. The only problem with this is if somehow the rope travels off route on the pull and won't loosen with me pulling on it from above. Then I could be screwed. I would like to hear anyone's experiences if they have them.

Yes, the extra cord and rapides (10+) can add up, and could be unneccessary. But here's an analysis: I'd say a stuck rope is 15% likely, and then not being able to free it by climbing up is 10% likely, that's about 1.5% chance of a lost rope, and then I could probably CUT still the loose end away and rappel on that to home. So the risks overall seem pretty small. If anyone has specific knowledge or experience it'd be great to hear them.

Low class 5 dude? Come on. Any self respecting climber does that on a regular basis any time they need to move fast. Don't come on here acting all high and mighty because you've spend a bit of time on an alpine ridge. And Don't give me the whole "I have bigger balls than you, and I know more" bullshit. The only thing that free soloing "backcountry alpine routes at low class five and tremendous exposure" proves is that you can't find partners and that your ego is bigger than mine.

If you had come on here and introduced yourself, and/or made some contributions to the site (since you are probably the most knowledgeable one here, 'cuz you free solo alpine routes), then maybe people would have responded a little better.

Don't change the subject and cling to my words "free solo", which has members of your little tribe seeing red.

Getting better responses? I asked a neutral technical question and it's immediately sorted to the "shit" pile by your highness. Haha, I guess I should get on my knees and wipe my chin in a few threads before begging a simple question to this forum from the self-appointed gatekeepers. Oh yeah, also clearly I don't have friends because I'm going solo on a trip or two.

We can all solo a few feet at a craig with buddies, cell phones and city nearby. It's a little different completing a half mile long alpine climb 20 miles from the next human being, dangling from a loose, dirty chute that has seen 2 ascents in the last 12 months because the peak you're on is obscure but the last one for you to climb in the valley. You're tired from the 15 mile, 5000 foot approach the last day, crummy sleep and the bracing alpine start on the early summer morning. Your cold feet in crampons working your way up the chute, biting into the icy crust that but could easily melt on the descent into the consistency of a slushie. That's the danger and thats the experience, being solo is part of it. I'd like to see you on route and run your mouth about how trivial that is.

Don't talk to me about "climbers saving time" because that's not what a solitary and isolated alpine route is like. Me mentioning free solo was a mistake because this was never about bragging. I'm no sport climber and I don't pretend to have any super technical skills than comfort at soloing low 5.

Look man, no one cares what you climb or how you climb it. And I for one am certainly not going to take kindly to your holier than thou attitude.

You have no real idea of what kind of climbing we all like and for you to come on here and act like you are Mr. King of the Mountains is kind of a joke. Most people who spend as much time "out there" as you claim to understand that it is a pursuit that you just can't explain. Being in the mountains is about being in the mountains. It's not about having a story to tell or stroking your ego to the point that you think you are above everyone else on the fucking internet.

So there is no point in spouting out your "what it's like to be an alpine climber" monologue. No one gives a shit. It just makes you look like an ass.

And if you are so accomplished and experienced, why the hell are you coming on some dumb internet forum to ask a bunch of gumbies about something that you can just figure out for your self in your own back yard?

Good point in these posts, and I'll keep it in mind...I can get the rope stuck with all the extra gear hanging at the end. But I've rarely had problems pulling. Most of the rappels are short (30-50 feet) and I'm way above any vegetation of any kind. A biner block is alot larger in bulk than even the my largest rappel ring, naturally, so maybe adding it and some webbing doesn't seem to be a dramatic problem.

There is also one important difference..I free climbed the low grade route up...seriously, unlike many rappels I have the luxury of simply climbing back up and lifting my rope from the top. The only problem with this is if somehow the rope travels off route on the pull and won't loosen with me pulling on it from above. Then I could be screwed. I would like to hear anyone's experiences if they have them.

Who the hell is afraid to get their rope stuck in vegetation? Usually ropes get stuck in cracks. And the simple solution to that is to rappell where there aren't any rope-eating cracks. But that again means there is no way you free solo back up in case it gets stuck anyway. How I read this: "I scramble 4th class gulleys with the odd climbing move here and there". If I were you I get rid of all this sling/rappell ring/pull cord clusterf**k and instead go along with a full-length half rope.

Implicit in your plan and in the SummitPost link you provided is the availability of suitable horns to rig your rappel sling around. Great if you can find them, but alpine routes can involve putting slings around boulders, irregular shaped chockstones, flakes, and trees, all of which can easily cause your retrieval system to snag. Simplify your system and for every sling you leave make a point of carrying a garbage sling out.

We can all solo a few feet at a craig with buddies, cell phones and city nearby. It's a little different completing a half mile long alpine climb 20 miles from the next human being, dangling from a loose, dirty chute that has seen 2 ascents in the last 12 months because the peak you're on is obscure but the last one for you to climb in the valley. You're tired from the 15 mile, 5000 foot approach the last day, crummy sleep and the bracing alpine start on the early summer morning. Your cold feet in crampons working your way up the chute, biting into the icy crust that but could easily melt on the descent into the consistency of a slushie. That's the danger and thats the experience, being solo is part of it. I'd like to see you on route and run your mouth about how trivial that is.

I'm rappelling on the biner block. The "innovation" is the retrieval method. Not necessarily safe but on the rappel I am no more in danger of falling than I would be on any biner block. Here is a picture of a biner block. This is a pretty vanilla and well established technique

Yes, I know what a biner block is. But this picture doesn't seem to match your description. Which part of this setup adds the ability to retrieve the sling?

Your description includes some tugs and pulls in a sequence to release the whole thing? What's to prevent that same series of tugs from happening while on rappel?

The system certainly seems feasible. Try it in a controlled environment and report back on the results.

And everyone calm down please, it's too hot today thanks.

rhei wrote:

Implicit in your plan and in the SummitPost link you provided is the availability of suitable horns to rig your rappel sling around. Great if you can find them, but alpine routes can involve putting slings around boulders, irregular shaped chockstones, flakes, and trees, all of which can easily cause your retrieval system to snag. Simplify your system and for every sling you leave make a point of carrying a garbage sling out.

Ok good point. I'll definitely experiment using different anchors.

kobaz wrote:

MarmotPrince wrote:

I'm rappelling on the biner block. The "innovation" is the retrieval method. Not necessarily safe but on the rappel I am no more in danger of falling than I would be on any biner block. Here is a picture of a biner block. This is a pretty vanilla and well established technique

[img]http://www.canyonwiki.com/wiki/images/9/9d/Autoblock_s.JPG[/img]

Yes, I know what a biner block is. But this picture doesn't seem to match your description. Which part of this setup adds the ability to retrieve the sling?

Your description includes some tugs and pulls in a sequence to release the whole thing? What's to prevent that same series of tugs from happening while on rappel?

The picture is of a biner block, it is not my picture and it doesn't show my proposed setup. Here are some pictures of what I'm suggesting. (Ignore the specific knots, they are obviously not safe and only for demonstration):

The webbing. One small ring and one large ring.

I find a nice horn. The biner block. I rappel on the right side of the rope. Notice there is a small rapide/ring knotted to this end.

This setup is no weaker than any biner block. The rope is being pulled from the right, with the small rapide at the very bottom of the rope on the ground. After the rappel is completed I pull my rope from the left. 30 meters of rope goes up and into the rappel ring, until finally the little ring at the end catches onto the rappel rings. The little knot goes through the large rappel ring... ...and gets caught on the second small rappel ring. Now the webbing is not attached to the anchor and hopefully the loose end unwinds from the anchor without being caught. The whole rope comes down.

With this method, I can use a strong rope to pull the webbing down instead of a puny 3mm accessory cord. I can do 30m rappels on a 30m rappels on an 8mm rope and 20 feet of webbing...that's about 3 pounds of climbing gear to allow access to any route with low fifth class only, which is alot of summits.

That all seems like it would work, barring the anchor setup getting stuck in any number of places.

But I still don't understand how you can rap 30m on a 30m rope w/o having a pull chord. It seems like you would have to tie the biner block in the middle of the rope to have a side to pull down on, or you'd still have to have a pull chord on the other side of the biner block.

Clever way of getting your anchor set up back but I don't see that it keeps you from having either a 60m rope OR a 30m rope and a 30m pull chord.

The system certainly seems feasible. Try it in a controlled environment and report back on the results.

And everyone calm down please, it's too hot today thanks.

rhei wrote:

Implicit in your plan and in the SummitPost link you provided is the availability of suitable horns to rig your rappel sling around. Great if you can find them, but alpine routes can involve putting slings around boulders, irregular shaped chockstones, flakes, and trees, all of which can easily cause your retrieval system to snag. Simplify your system and for every sling you leave make a point of carrying a garbage sling out.

Ok good point. I'll definitely experiment using different anchors.

kobaz wrote:

MarmotPrince wrote:

I'm rappelling on the biner block. The "innovation" is the retrieval method. Not necessarily safe but on the rappel I am no more in danger of falling than I would be on any biner block. Here is a picture of a biner block. This is a pretty vanilla and well established technique

[img]http://www.canyonwiki.com/wiki/images/9/9d/Autoblock_s.JPG[/img]

Yes, I know what a biner block is. But this picture doesn't seem to match your description. Which part of this setup adds the ability to retrieve the sling?

Your description includes some tugs and pulls in a sequence to release the whole thing? What's to prevent that same series of tugs from happening while on rappel?

The picture is of a biner block, it is not my picture and it doesn't show my proposed setup. Here are some pictures of what I'm suggesting. (Ignore the specific knots, they are obviously not safe and only for demonstration):

[IMG]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3443/p5291334.jpg[/IMG] The webbing. One small ring and one large ring.

[IMG]http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2023/p5291335.jpg[/IMG] I find a nice horn. [IMG]http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/609/p5291336.jpg[/IMG] The biner block. I rappel on the right side of the rope. Notice there is a small rapide/ring knotted to this end.

This setup is no weaker than any biner block. The rope is being pulled from the right, with the small rapide at the very bottom of the rope on the ground. [IMG]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/7222/p5291337.jpg[/IMG] After the rappel is completed I pull my rope from the left. 30 meters of rope goes up and into the rappel ring, until finally the little ring at the end catches onto the rappel rings. [IMG]http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6738/p5291338.jpg[/IMG] The little knot goes through the large rappel ring... [IMG]http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2240/p5291339.jpg[/IMG] ...and gets caught on the second small rappel ring. Now the webbing is not attached to the anchor and hopefully the loose end unwinds from the anchor without being caught. The whole rope comes down.

With this method, I can use a strong rope to pull the webbing down instead of a puny 3mm accessory cord. I can do 30m rappels on a 30m rappels on an 8mm rope and 20 feet of webbing...that's about 3 pounds of climbing gear to allow access to any route with low fifth class only, which is alot of summits.

Ok, now it makes sense what you are trying to explain.

Safe? I wouldnt want to rappel of a roll of tape on the floor, but other than that i dont see a big issue for the rappel (assuming you use proper knots and so on).

However i do see some safety issues when you have to free solo terrain that you deemed steep enough to warrant a rappel. If you have to free solo it and then down climb it anyways, why bother with rapping over it first?

To clean it or to place some tickmarks so that you know where to step/grab?

Also that takes a lot of time. Rigging that thing, rappelling, pulling around a bit, climbing up, stuffing it into your backpack and finally downclimbing …

Just leave a sling, find a feature to rappel from directly, or find another way to go down.

That all seems like it would work, barring the anchor setup getting stuck in any number of places.

But I still don't understand how you can rap 30m on a 30m rope w/o having a pull chord. It seems like you would have to tie the biner block in the middle of the rope to have a side to pull down on, or you'd still have to have a pull chord on the other side of the biner block.

Clever way of getting your anchor set up back but I don't see that it keeps you from having either a 60m rope OR a 30m rope and a 30m pull chord.