136 Responses to “It might as well be the Washington Niggers”

When I was in high school (late 80’s, early 90’s), our team was the Danforth Redmen, with a logo like the Chicago Blackhawks. The school decided to hold talks about changing the logo and team names, and invited some local native groups to attend.

Interestingly, some of the natives present didn’t mind the name: they said it was like the Argonauts (Toronto’s CFL football team). Their concern that they brought up numerous times was that the students did not get enough education about native culture and especially history. Though I’m relating the story, I can’t speak for that community.

Right. Cause the *biggest* problem with football is politically incorrect names.

Ya’ know what you could do to actually prove you care about human beings being marginalized and suffering, right? Boycott all ricockulous machismo bullshit I’m-manlier-than-thou violent ‘sports’ that glorify sexism, brutality and rape culture.

My significant other is…well…Other. She is 75% African American and 25% Native American (can’t remember which Nation…one of the old, dead Delaware tribes I think).

She is also an INSANE Redskins fan. Jersey, sweatshirt, earings at least for every game. When the Eagles destroyed them in November she called me in San Diego in floods of tears.

I’ve asked her about her feeligns for the name. She is pretty much of the opinion that
A) it’s the kind of thing white people worry about
B) it’s historically locked now and changing it isn’t worth it
C) at least it acknowldeges at some level the original Native populace
D) given all the other shit DC needs fixed, it’s real low on the list
E) the baseball team was the “Greys” FFS, so at least it ain’t that bad.

I’ll see if I can convince her to come in here and talk about it so it ain’t just some whiteass cracker hearsay …

(side note, “my neice” is pushing 5yrs old and has only met me once a while back. We asked her if she remembered her “Uncle” and what colour he was…”Is he the grey one?” She asked. There was much LOLing)

If it is news to anyone that persons of category X do not all have the exact same attitudes and reactions to everything possible under the sun then I suppose you have a very good point…

The question is whether Tideliar’s GF’s opinions on the topic are an exception within her “category,”or whether they more widespread, despite what people in other categories might expect. You glibly assume them to be the former, but with no real basis, as far as I can see.

I don’t assume jack squat, Dr. Becca. I made it quite clear in the post that this pisses me off.

I make no assumptions whatsoever about whether Tideliar’s significant other is representative and to what degree of various native american or other populations. Someone is making glib assumptions here but it is not I, my friends.

By way of analogy, the rather substantial fraction of women who vote Republican sway me not a bit from the objective truth that their favored policies are anti-woman. You? Did all the cheerleader fan-scientists (or critics) sway you from whatever you position is on Cheerleaders-for-Science? Was your position a glib assumption about the relative proportions of women in science that are in favor or critical of Cheerleaders?

And let us turn to our granfalloon of Redskins “fans”, shall we not? Do you really think the garden variety sports fanatic is any sort of reasonable point of view on any topic of significance that involves their favorite team? Seriously?

For full disclosure, I am not a fan of any teams that are considered to be traditional rivals of the Redskins, nor do I have any historical times of active fandom of any teams that may have suffered at the hands of the Redskins in their good years.

Hi, Bikemonkey. I do agree with you that they should change the name of the Washington team. I’m not sure if I get as pissed off about it as you do, there are a variety of things in that general category that bother me to varying degrees.

While we’re on that subject, I just noticed in the recent posts on this blog, right above the blog link to me, and I believe I’m one of a few black bloggers around here, is “Nigger” from the title of the very next post.

Ah, that is rather *spectacularly* bad placement on my part, isn’t it? I assure you the two things had nothing to do with each other. Nevertheless my apologies for that rather unfortunate bit of timing.

Yeah… there are at least a handful of Native Americans that agree with you, BikeMonkey. This issue of the Washington Redskins’ name/mascot made it all the way to the Supreme Court… and was summarily shot down because, according to our esteemed judges, Native people “waited too long” to file suit. W.T.F.

@Isabel: the big difference? White people = not oppressed. Native Americans = oppressed in so many ways. When white people have undergone genocide and experience prejudice and institutional racism, and have the sacred parts of their culture appropriated with a complete lack of respect; when white people are treated as a group that is more of a mythology than an actual people – then we can claim there’s a problem.

And you, Isabel, are once again denying that ethnic and racial oppression exists and ignoring the substantial association of economic class with ethnicity. Not to mention once again refusing to grapple with the fact that it is the racism of lower class whites that gets in the way of them acting to help with their very own socio-economic class oppression and in fact leads them to enhance class oppression via discrimination against nonwhites.

This tax-cuts-for-the-obscenely-wealthy stuff would be a dead dog if it weren’t for the support of lower and lower-middle class white folks. Folks for whom there is no conceivable benefit of this policy, save their continued fantasy that they, too, will someday be a titan of WallStreet.

And I don’t think they are any more racist than anyone else on the planet. You are scapegoating again.

really? if you don’t think your favored lower socioeconomic whites are more racist than average than you are in willing denial. the fact that they may not have an exclusive lock on being racist, and the fact that some lower class whites are the most egalitarian people you’d care to meet, says nothing about the central tendency. and, you know, the voting patterns….

There certainly is significant racism among low-income whites. As there is among many other groups. And I certainly don’t claim that racism is equally prevalent in all groups and in all ways. But, um, for somebody who’s trying to show how egalitarian and sensitive he is, explaining that most of our political problems come from “those people” and their icky, tacky, ignorant ways, well, yeah.

Even if the stances taken by low-income whites are, by some measure, objectively Not Good, be open to the possibility that the motives and decision processes and values involved are a bit more complex than icky, tacky poor people who are too dumb and evil to recognize what’s good and right.

I don’t know what your background is, but I gather that you are some sort of academic, and so you probably move in different soci0economic circles than most low-income whites. (Insert grad student salary joke here.) However you got there, wherever you came from, sneering at “those people” is not endearing, even when it comes from well-educated liberals.

as a poor-ass cracker, I’m going to agree with BikeMonkey: The American Working class is dreadfully undereducated and socially threatened (in this case, I mean in the “falling off their rung of the social-climbing ladder” way), which results in all sorts of -isms that are pretty effectively exploited by the Neo-Cons to destroy what’s left of the American Social Safety Net. In fact, this “divide and conquer” game has a very long tradition in the US.

Does this apply to every single poor white person? No. But overall, they are that much more likely to exhibit such fear and hatred for all “Others”, enough to be willing to vote against their own benefit.

Also, I really don’t think the point would have worked without the “kryptonite” word. It’s not more racist than “redskin” is, it’s just that we’ve been socialized to react strongly to “nigger”, but not to “redskin”. Which was the point.

And as for “it’s the kind of thing white people worry about”… well, this non-white seems to disagree, so now we’re even on the Anecdotal Natives To Support My POW score[/sarcasm]

And yeah, Jadehawk, it’s totally evil of them to resent being stuck in the working class. Upward mobility? Or their share of the pie? Funny when people who have more than their share disappove of those who want a few more crumbs, maybe a better life for their kids.

They are the ones who are suffering economic stagnation, not upper class whites. I don’t believe it’s racism, and they are not responsible for institutional racism. They have been thrown under the bus for decades, and now they are screamed at for not sharing enough. What do you expect as a response? As Jim Goad has said, better than I could, whenever other groups exhibit fucked up attitudes it’s excused because of their poverty, lack of good schools, cultural issues we don’t understand, etc, but oppressed whites are just power hungry and evil, eh?

They are just people, and people from the South are the poorest Americans. Yet they are blamed for all the problems of the country, ceaselessly mocked, and even a southern accent is mocked and something to be ashamed of. Many are descended from slaves. And now Bikemonkey wants us to believe they just have to vote for the right people even if those people make it clear how much they despise the ‘sorry ass crackers’ and even if those same people didn’t do shit for them when they had the chance.

Two words Isabel: Fox News. The notion that lowerclass whites are “blamed for all the problems” is totally and utterly absurd. Lowerclass blacks and browns are the ones being endlessly blamed for, wait for it, the plight of lower class whites. And they eat that shit up. Instead of placing blame where we both agree it belongs, the oligarchical puppetmaster class.

If you really believe your absurd statement than it is you that needs to get out of your Ivory tower myopia.

BikeMonkey,
You just said what I’d come here to say — the enduring ratings success of FOX “news” (aka the organized dissemination and encouragement of misinformation, bigotry, hatred and, yes, even violence), and the demographic primarily responsible for that ratings success, evidences the truth in what you say regarding race relations in our country.
Great post, BTW, and tremendous defense of your stance in the comments.

You seem to be of two minds. If you are not blaming the lower class whites, then why do you*sound* like you’re blaming them? Why the complete lack of sympathy in all your posts? Why the mocking, the nastiness, the acceptance of pejorative terms, that would not be accepted for other groups?

Do you not see how this hostile attitude only increases the popularity of those who are, um, nicer and more understanding, even if they are phonies? Do you not see, as a result of this observation, a way out of this mess?

I have not seen any evidence of compassion for lower class whites here. If you feel this is the crux of our problems, what is your solution? You don’t seem to have one. To me, you are just venting, blaming me and my relatives, and spreading hate.

And yeah, Jadehawk, it’s totally evil of them to resent being stuck in the working class. Upward mobility? Or their share of the pie? Funny when people who have more than their share disappove of those who want a few more crumbs, maybe a better life for their kids.

way to miss my point. being racist/sexist/homophobic/etc does not accomplish that. Quite the opposite, since these are the buttons republicans press to get the white poor to vote against those things that would give them a better share of the pie and a better future for their kids. And you also missed the part where I myself am dirtpoor. If $7000 a year is “more than [my] share”, there aren’t many people left who have less than their share.

They are the ones who are suffering economic stagnation, not upper class whites.

indeed. and this is a counterargument to my point… how?

I don’t believe it’s racism,

I don’t have to “believe” it. I see it in the tea party freakout over Obama, I see it in what my former neighbors were saying quite overtly, I see it tattooed on their arms. And I see their voting records.

but oppressed whites are just power hungry and evil,

so you didn’t notice the part where I wrote that their attitudes were caused by being undereducated and suffering from social anxiety? Your reading comprehensions sucks.

even if those same people didn’t do shit for them when they had the chance.

lol, yeah right. “Democrats hate poor white people” is Republican propaganda. It’s not Democrats that keep on dismantling the American Safety Net, gutting its public education, widening the rich-poor gap, and destroying the social mobility in this country.

As a clue, consider that the increasing isolation and economic stagnation/reversals of lower class whites pre-date the popularity of Fox News by decades.

indeed. As far as it’s modern manifestation is concerned, it does however nicely correspond with the success of the Southern Strategy and Reaganomics. And you don’t think that has anything to do with the racism present in the American working class, and easily exploited by neocons?

Tell me what the Democrats have done for the working classes, who have been stagnated and flailing for four decades now. Anyway, working class white people do not want a safety net as much as they want a chance at success, at better lives.

You don’t need propaganda to convince me that Democrats hate poor and lower class white people, you can read about it here every day, and by omission of the group from practically every diversity or outreach program for decades.

And YOU are totally missing MY point. That mocking and belittling them makes it worse. Do you actually disagree with this? It’s basic psychology.

Bikemonkey wants to blame them and mock them and you said you agree.

btw, the notion that they are ‘ignorantly lashing out at minorities’ as ‘someone to blame’, that they are doing it out of ‘fear’ blah blah and that they become racists and xenophobes as a way to handle their fear is extremely condescending. The situation is way more complicated than that. And I don’t have any exposure to Fox News, but I listen to talk radio from time to time and I don’t hear any racism and I do hear a lot of anger at corporate America.

And finally, my point still stands. we could mock inner city blacks and their fucked up attitudes and blame them for the situation they are in. We could shake our heads over the sexism and homophobia and the high crime. But it’s not PC. Why the blame and lack of real (not patronizing “they are afraid so they lash out at the ‘other'” blah blah) understanding?

If I am wrong, and you are actually sympathetic, what is your solution?

Tell me what the Democrats have done for the working classes, who have been stagnated and flailing for four decades now.

you’re kidding, right? every single push-back against Reaganomics came from the Democrats. It’s not Democrats after all who have, for example, completely dismantled the education system of cities like Detroit and New Orleans, thus perpetuation the “undereducated” part I mentioned. That Democrats have become spineless wonders recently is a separate issue.

Anyway, working class white people do not want a safety net as much as they want a chance at success, at better lives.

if that’s true, then their fate is indeed their own fault, since you can’t have the latter without the former. But I guess you’ve swallowed the idiotic claims of “rugged American individualism” as well, so you’re certainly contributing to the shitty condition of your fellow poor whites. But I don’t think it’s true that all of them think that way. Plenty of unionized blue collar workers still left in this country, and they know just fine how important the social safety net is.

You don’t need propaganda to convince me that Democrats hate poor and lower class white people, you can read about it here every day, and by omission of the group from practically every diversity or outreach program for decades.

bullshit on the outreach program part. And just what do you think “diversity” means? In the US, it always meant breaking the monopoly of whites in every class so that non-whites of their class weren’t disadvantaged. There are no class-based diversity programs, precisely because of the silly “don’t want a social safety net” BS.

And YOU are totally missing MY point. That mocking and belittling them makes it worse. Do you actually disagree with this? It’s basic psychology.

so saying it’s not their fault is belittling, but saying it’s their fault is racist. You’re an idiot.

And Jadehawk, please show some actual evidence for this “hatred”

what would you like me to do? tape-record the dinner conversations at my boyfriend’s family’s place? their neighbors? my neighbors? photograph their “gott mit uns” tattoos? point out the plentiful racial dogwhistles in speeches by Republicans addressed to the working class? Point out the evidence for the existence and effectiveness of the Southern Strategy?

And finally, my point still stands. we could mock inner city blacks and their fucked up attitudes and blame them for the situation they are in. We could shake our heads over the sexism and homophobia and the high crime. But it’s not PC.

hiding behind “it’s not PC” is pathetic. These things are, in fact, discussed quite often, and in exactly the same ways that they are discussed about poor whites. But it’s only people who don’t understand the concept of “privilege” who think that poor whites are nearly as badly discriminated against as poor blacks or latinos are, for example.

Well, sort of. At the base, it’s the fault of the media and the education system; it’s their failure to let people know that there are countries with functioning safety nets out there.

I know. But like I said, I don’t believe poor people don’t want a social safety net; Isabel does.

More importantly, it’s not the not showing that there’s countries with functioning safety nets, but the not showing of the evidence that it’s those countries that still have social mobility and a much smaller rich-poor gap and both fewer and less miserably poor people of all races, that makes it that much easier to swallow the crap about individualism and meritocracy.

“At the base, it’s the fault of the media and the education system; it’s their failure to let people know that there are countries with functioning safety nets out there.”

Yes. And lower-class whites are not responsible for the media (which treats them shitty anyway) and are not responsible for naming football teams (or changing the name) or ghetto-producing city planning or institutional racism or choosing candidates. Another class of (mostly) white people is.

And Jadehawk, I said “as much”. They would *prefer* the upward mobility.

“hiding behind “it’s not PC” is pathetic. These things are, in fact, discussed quite often, and in exactly the same ways that they are discussed about poor whites. ”

HAhahaha. No, it’s not PC. It’s called blaming the victim, and not allowed here unless you are talking about whites.

Try it.

Also, for example, it is racist around here to point out the racism of Asian-Americans toward blacks.

Yes, it’s true, we are only allowed to talk shit about and blame white people, especially the least powerful whites (easiest targets-and we earn anti-racist cred at the same time) and we are required to feel compassion for all non-whites, whatever shit they may pull and how rich they might be, and forbidden to show compassion for whites, no matter how much their lives might suck.

Jadehawk, why did things continue to get worse for lower class whites during the Clinton era? Yes I know, we can blame the Republicans even during a Democratic administration. You sound like a poseur to me anyway. How do you live on 7000/yr and have a computer and a job? What job do you do? Is it part-time, is someone else supporting you? How about your parents? Why are you so hostile toward your own people? No compassion for the people who sacrificed and raised you – blaming them for their woes – sad.

And visiting your blog it sounds like you are from Germany and attending a US university, not the typical “a poor-ass cracker” you represented yourself as when you decided to speak for the lower-class (esp Southern) US whites Bikemonkey was dissing. Please correct me if I’m wrong, if not you should be more clear, otherwise you are being dishonest.

You sound like a poseur to me anyway. How do you live on 7000/yr and have a computer and a job? What job do you do? Is it part-time, is someone else supporting you? How about your parents? Why are you so hostile toward your own people?

And visiting your blog it sounds like you are from Germany and attending a US university,

the poor people among whom I have lived for the last 8 years are not “my people” in the sense of having grown up among them, since as you note I was born and raised in a different country. A country where the working class still fights for its rights, rather than for the rights of their employers, btw. But I’m not a university student. I will become what’s called a “non-traditional student” next year. And I laugh at your accusations of poseurism. Apparently only people who agree with you can be poor whites, and can know what poor whites are like. That’s called a No True Scotsman.

And once more, I’ll point you to the fact that I have consistently pointed out that I fully understand what has made the American working class what it is. But that doesn’t change the fact that they rather consistently vote to worsen their own economic situation because they fall for hateful and exclusionary rhetoric. At some point, you gotta take responsibility and stop falling for obvious lies. And for the record, I do feel the same about minorities who do shit like that. For example, GOProud and Log Cabin Republicans are Uncle Marys, the lot of them.

How about your parents? Why are you so hostile toward your own people? No compassion for the people who sacrificed and raised you – blaming them for their woes – sad.

If my parents behaved the way my boyfriend’s parents do, I’d not try to excuse their hatred for everyone who isn’t like them just because they spawned me. What a backwards, tribalist notion. People are wrong, epically, cruelly wrong, all the time, and most of them are somebody’s parents. Spawning is not an excuse for being ignorant assholes.

And in fact, I have plenty to criticize about my own parents and the class that my family belongs to, but that’s a separate subject that’s none of your business.

who were the people most opposed to getting rid of the Fighting Sioux? poor-ass crackers.
who were the people who attacked and harassed Native students after the decision was finalized? poor-ass crackers.

If anyone cares… I know Jadehawk from yet another blog, where she has been talking about herself in gruesome detail for over 2 years now, and she’s not lying, not even by omission. You may cease making ad-hominem arguments, Isabel; that Jadehawk has “only” been living in the US (and in poverty, sometimes third-world-level poverty) for 8 years doesn’t make her blind or deaf.

(And I agree it’s impossible to be a Log Cabin Republican without being in deep denial.)

Why is she poor? Why is she in the US? Sorry, all students here are poor- without knowledge of her actual situation and background how do I know she’s not slumming?

And why does she know more about her host country than those whose ancestors have been here and treated like shit for 100’s of years? It’s especially arrogant of her to speak with such little compassion.

This is all besides the point. You are taking shots at a group that has been at the bottom culturally for centuries. So they’ve internalized a lot of shit. What a big surprise. Kick ’em while they’re down, and earn your anti-racism cred at the same time! Ain’t it satisfying?

To clarify, in the US the pejorative term “cracker” is not used against students, hippies, atheists who fly off to Copenhagen for conferences, etc who are temporarily slumming, or even if they were poor in another country. She implied she was from the culture that was being criticized and that was wrong. So yes, she should come clean about her situation. How is she living on 7000/yr, how does she earn this money? And no, she does not understand the situation in the US. It’s all outsider talking points, no unique or compassionate insight there at all.

Bikemonkey: If you shorten the time period to 1970-2008 you can see that the use of “nigger” is declining while the use of “redneck” is increasing.

Also, Jim Goad did a whole chapter on this in his first book. When you compare the actual usage of the words and not just how often they pop up, most of the use (I think he was looking at journalistic usage, but not sure off hand) “nigger” involves disapproval of and analysis of the term, while in almost all cases “redneck” was simply used as a demeaning descriptive term.

and it’s all sorts of cute that you think you have the right you have the right to define what a poor-ass cracker is. I’ve been poor all my adult life (never made more than 14000 a year), I’m white, and I have a 10th grade education (formally). I’m as poor-ass cracker as they come. sorry cupcake; I did not claim to be to be a redneck or a hillbillie, since those actually refer to places. a cracker is a poor, undereducated, white person in the US. and I am one and have lived among them for 8 years. Deal with it and stop pathetically trying to No True Scotsman me, because I disagree with you on… well, everything.

and lastly, the fact that you’re so obsessed with me as a person just shows you don’t actually have an argument. the comment you’re so obsessed about was in many ways sarcasm against the “you can only know about ‘us’ if you’re one of ‘us'”; it’s the same stupid shit Christians pull when criticized. And as expected, you had a freakout and are trying to exclude me. I’d be actually very curious what you’d try to do to my boyfriend (who agrees with me on all these issues) to try to exclude him, despite his “pure” poor-ass cracker lineage. :-p

Obsessed with you? hahaha. I've known way more entertaining impostors that were able to hold my attention much longer than you ever will!

"I’m as poor-ass cracker as they come." You still don't get it. I've lived in black neighborhoods for way more than eight years of my adult life, but I certainly wouldn't go around calling myself 'nigger' and claiming the right to speak for the poor black community.

I’ve lived in black neighborhoods for way more than eight years of my adult life, but I certainly wouldn’t go around calling myself ‘nigger’ and claiming the right to speak for the poor black community.

might that be because YOU’RE NOT BLACK?

ooooh, or are you saying Obama is not an “African-American”? now that would be hilarious…

…impostors…

you wish

Cracker, my ass, but I’ll give you Eurotrash. Happy, dearie?

nice try; still wrong though.

now, are you going to get back to the subject and show me how poor white people have been “at the bottom culturally for centuries”, meaning socially below blacks, asians, and natives? have they been exterminated en-masse? kidnapped from their homecountries and enslaved? incarcerated in camps? murdered for merely their skin-color?

citation on the entire last post sorely needed, cupcake (and not from that homophobic stormfront-favorite of yours, please). I can’t fucking believe you could say with a straight face that you’ve suffered more discrimination in this country than Native Americans have. vile. pretty much the only way you can get away with that without (completely) looking like a female Limbaugh is if you’re a Mormon.

YOU’RE NOT BLACK

And you ain’t no cracker.

you wish. if I don’t qualify for what you’ve so vigorously defended at the beginning of this thread (not later, when you needed to narrow the definition down to exclude me, for lack of argument), then Obama is not an African-American.

here’s the funny part though:
nothing you’ve said about Teh Ebil Discrimination against whites (and I’m amused that you try so hard to pretend poor whites are the only ones suffering from class-discrimination; as if poor blacks, or the Hmong, or any number of immigrant communities were better off than poor whites. hah!) would be any less wrong and blind to white privilege, if you were right about my cracker-status.

I don’t have a lifetime to tutor you. Read a history book maybe. And Stormfront? wtf? Sounds like you’re the regular reader.

“pretend poor whites are the only ones suffering from class-discrimination”

who said that? Are you drunk again?

“if I don’t qualify”

You don’t. World travel is not on the radar screen of poor ass crackers.

You also seem completely unaware of the existence of cultural capital.

Anyway, it is *you* who has disqualified yourself. By taking a judgmental, outsider stance, by ‘othering’ the very people who have raised your boyfriend and offered you their hospitality. Instead of looking into your own heart to find compassion for these poor souls you are two-faced and complain about them on-line. Not about their annoying habits, we all understand that kind of complaining, but you are calling them evil, blaming them for their own situation and all the problems of the world for good measure. Very ignorant. Very tacky.

You will have to find a derogatory word for poor white Euro poseurs, if you are so desperate to own such a label. Gives you ‘street cred’ at the atheist conferences you jet around to I suppose.

This is all very negative, and very taxing for a sweetie pie such as myself, which is exactly what happens when people start blaming other people.

Bikemonkey wants to blame the oligarchy, which is more like it, but oligarchy is not synonymous with white skin.

Glad the younger generation of black kids is moving beyond this. What the world needs now is love.

yeah, I thought so. That’s because there’s no such thing as a Trail of Tears for Crackers.

You don’t. World travel is not on the radar screen of poor ass crackers. […]Anyway, it is *you* who has disqualified yourself. By taking a judgmental, outsider stance, by ‘othering’ the very people who have raised your boyfriend and offered you their hospitality

aaaand another No True Scotsman. Guess my boyfriend ain’t no cracker either; lol. His family is ignorant, racist, and homophobic. I know that, and he knows that. How is admitting the truth calling people evil? You’re just pissy because not everyone from your economic class and race, and even your upbringing, agrees with you.

who said that? Are you drunk again?

you, every time you conflate class discrimination with being a poor white; and when you claimed poor whites where at the bottom of society, as if those who experience other forms of discrimination don’t also

You also seem completely unaware of the existence of cultural capital.

that’s adorable. I’ve been mentioning cultural capital every single fucking time I mentioned why the white poor Americans are how they are. I have that very clear. But that’s not what “cracker” means, no matter how much you wish to conflate it with words like “redneck” (which I never claimed to be)

blaming them for their own situation and all the problems of the world for good measure.

you can’t read. everybody without an agenda would have already noticed that I’ve done neither.

You will have to find a derogatory word for poor white Euro poseurs, if you are so desperate to own such a label. Gives you ‘street cred’ at the atheist conferences you jet around to I suppose.

sorry to disappoint, but I wouldn’t qualify for that no matter how hard you wish for it, to exclude me from the place and class that I actually am in, and surrounded by (the latter point being in any case why I even brought it up. First-hand experience, and all that). And “jet around” is hilarious. you know sooooo much about me. lol.

yeah, I guess that’s why most of its members throughout American history where white dudes.

and it’s cute that you NOW admit that this is what he’s doing, when at the beginning you were refusing to admit that. remember when you claimed he was denying class oppression?

maybe it’ll take a few more days to sink in that I think pretty much the same way about this as he does (you know, the part where, in my very first post, I said I agree with him?), but unlike you I don’t deny the blatant and extensive xenophobia I’ve witnessed over the last 8 years, and unlike you I don’t claim that the poor whites are at the bottom of the social ladder, as if poor people of other races didn’t exist or weren’t subject to both class and racial discrimination (and sometimes even religious discrimination) both now and historically.

Glad the younger generation of black kids is moving beyond this. What the world needs now is love.

I can assure you that short of cherry picking your “black kids”, this is no more true than tideliar’s claim that Natives don’t care about appropriation.

And as to that “what the world needs now is love” thing… I’m highly amused that you accuse me of being a hippy, and then say things like that.

I can’t fucking believe you could say with a straight face that you’ve suffered more discrimination in this country than Native Americans have. vile.

QFT

World travel is not on the radar screen of poor ass crackers.

Which is why Jadehawk had that flight (which was really a trip to visit her family; the conference – singular – just happened to lie very close to the way) financed by her family. Her own job doesn’t make her enough money for that plus the university she’s going to attend.

Assumptions, assumptions…

the very people who have raised your boyfriend and offered you their hospitality

The people who raised her boyfriend didn’t offer her any hospitality. Quite the opposite. But that’s all beside the point. The point is:

Instead of looking into your own heart to find compassion for these poor souls you are two-faced and complain about them on-line.

What makes you think she has no compassion? Does compassion make criticism impossible? Does it include uncritical acceptance of what people do or believe?

Excellent discussion. and for the record, “I can assure you that short of cherry picking your “black kids”, this is no more true than tideliar’s claim that Natives don’t care about appropriation.”, I most certainly *didn’t* say that. I paraphrased something my SO said.

“Tell me what the Democrats have done for the working classes, who have been stagnated and flailing for four decades now. “
Given the proportions of women making up the working class, I’d say getting the Lilly Ledbetter act into law isn’t a bad thing.
Given the number of working class people serving in Iraq, withdrawal of troops there is also a plus.
You can argue about whether it’s the best course long-term, but I don’t think working class people who worked for the auto industry are worse off today than they would be if republicans had gotten elected.
Working class people in danger of loosing their home can now meet with federal insurers to work out a way to pay.
4 million more kids on health insurance (via expansion of SCHIP). That might make a difference to one or two working class families.
Do rural working class people in North Dakota count? Because their floods seemed to be handled a lot better than Katrina.
I’m not sure it’ll work, but ending tax breaks for companies that outsource jobs sure *sounds* like it’s worth a try.
Do older people still count as working class? Because lower drug costs for seniors sure sounds like a good idea to me.
Have you thought very hard about payday loans? Or credit card reform? The way I see this, it’s one of the purest policies in terms of targeting the working class.

“Anyway, working class white people do not want a safety net as much as they want a chance at success, at better lives.”
And in this way are working class white people any different from working class brown people? *Most* people don’t want to stay in a safety net. But *most* people do not want to fly off from a 90ft high trapeze because somebody oiled the bars.

Besides which, if education has any value, the democrats ensuring high speed internet access to K-12 schools isn’t a bad start, nor are new funds for school construction.
And what about student loan reform? You don’t think that will play any role at all in giving people a chance at success, at better lives?

And that’s all stuff they did in the last two years. Along with a host of other crap, some of which will benefit the working class and some of which won’t. But I think they are trying, and moreso than the republicans.

“without knowledge of her actual situation and background how do I know she’s not slumming?”
Only in Isabel’s world is being poor so coveted a position that you have to *prove* your credibility here.

There goes Becca telling me how to experience my oppression again (i.e. I’m imagining it). Yep, the rules don’t apply if you’re poor and white. Low even for you becca.

“is being poor so coveted a position” we were discussing her claim to be a ‘poor ass cracker’ – nice way to twist my words around. And yeah interesting to find out she’s an international traveler, financed by her family. My instincts were right on target it seems.

“And that’s all stuff they did in the last two years.”
Wow! The last two years! Things are really turning around while I immerse myself in my grad research I see!

“And in this way are working class white people any different from working class brown people? ”
Again, twisting. Is it a disease? Maybe you should see a doctor. That was a *response* to something WCWP “should” want and be grateful for, and I was replying that it was not a substitute for good jobs and decent pay and a chance that their children will do better than them.

Isabel, for someone who is chastising other commenters about spreading hate, yours has been probably the most hateful and rude voice on this whole post. Glass houses and all that. You also picked up the derogatory terms for white people and held onto that as evidence that BikeMonkey was singling out white people for derision, when he used similarly distasteful term for other ethnic groups. I’m having a hard time understanding why you were so defensive from the get go, and why discussing one example of oppression signals to you that the author doesn’t think other forms of oppression exist.

Meant to add: I know your (Isabel’s) original comment was saying that BikeMonkey was using equally offensive language. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. But BikeMonkey used that language to demonstrate how fucked up the mascot is, not as a representation of how BikeMonkey feels about white people (or black people!). And white people in the USA are privileged. Again, just because someone has one type of privilege doesn’t mean they don’t suffer other types of oppression. Nor does being oppressed in one sense erase all other forms of privilege.

They have a lot of info about hipster headdresses and other appropriation of NA culture.

tideliar- she doesn’t know what tribe she is? I mean, if she doesn’t culturally identify as NA I don’t know why her opinion is supposed to be a different perspective at all. A shitload of white people have some native american blood in their heritage and use it as license to say all kinds of fucked up shit about NA people, despite being raised in a way that is indistiguishable from other white people and being treated like a white person in society. It isn’t “stuff white people worry about” to point out that the mascot is racist- there are NA people who protest these things, along with the rampant use of “indian” as a Halloween costume. It feels a lot like blackface to me- its exaggerated, its for our entertainment, etc.

Is everyone aware of what NA people went through to get their cultures accurately represented in history books? Back in the day none of them had any accurate information, it changed with activism in the 60’s. A lot of people who are still alive grew up in school before the changes were made, they have weird cartoon ideas about what NA people are about. So do many people who were born after that, actually. That was a major thrust of activism then though, so its like a really specific “fuck you” to NA people to portray them cartoonishly.

And lets say tideliar’s friend was really into her tribe and culture and saw no problem- it wouldn’t mean there isn’t one. I read things from native authors about growing up watching cowboys and indians on tv, and rooting for the cowboys. Like, the culture in america has so many messages about racial inferiority that it is impossible not to absorb some of them, and not everyone has worked through that. Stuff like having a cultural identity be a mascot is a tiny piece of that- the Washington Whities won’t ever happen because white people are just considered to be actual individual people.

The unemployment rate of non white people is much higher than that of whites. Its a concrete measure of class oppression. It is worse for people of color (notice I didn’t say that it was only for people of color). It isn’t that difficult of a concept.

What is worse? How does the rate make it worse for an individual living that life? What does the rate have to do with their day to day experience? The experiences of white unemployed are not so bad? Why can’t you have sympathy for them without blaming them (for others oppression, by their possession of the white skin) in the same sentence?

And the rate is the “racism” part. And it is also partly being the most recent immigrants, which affects everyone, white and non-white. And never mind unemployment, what about being working class? You are *obsessed* with statistics, irrelevant to people’s actual lives. And I’m sorry, this refusal to admit the struggles of working people if they happen to be white feeds right into people you say you hate, like Glen Beck. You don’t think white people really work hard, they don’t really suffer, they are never oppressed, they don’t get the short end of the stick, so let’s mock them and their lily white skin. You have become the people you say you are against.

I am completely amazed that racism has completely taken over people’s minds to the extent that they no longer recognize socio-economic classes as basic, important inequalities. You cannot even talk about socioeconomic classes without bringing race into it immediately, even in a majority white country. I swear it’s a sickness, to not be able to see such a basic inequality.

Again, just because most oligarchs are white dudes doesn’t mean most white dudes are oligarchs. In fact only a tiny tiny tiny percentage of a percent are oligarchs. It’s really not that hard to understand, but I can sense everybody getting nervous and wanting to say something, anything about race right now. Because we cannot mention class without discussing race! It is simply not allowed, for some reason that nobody can explain, it just is!!!

Yes I know this is really hard to believe, but just try and let it sink in: if someone has ten or twenty times more income and one hundred times more wealth and the best health care, spas, massages walk-in closets and manicures and travels around the world three times a year and another person struggles to just get by and worries about paying the bills and lost their insurance and feels stressed all day has has never been on a plane or had a massage the first person is more privileged and the second person is oppressed even if they are both white! Yes, you can talk about oppression without bringing race and sex in to it! It’s actually possible! (but unfortunately, absolutely not allowed).

Here’s a secret: Even if all white people were *not* lazy and stupid or had terrible luck, there would not be more room in the upper classes for any more than are already there! Yes that’s right, the upper classes, starting with and including the upper-middle classes can only ever represent a minority of the population. By design!! I know this is really really hard to understand, especially if you believe all white people are lording it over all people of color (who built this country blah blah). Sure white people may struggle from time to time you say, but it’s their own damn fault! Right???

Willfully ignorant working class white people are fucking themselves the fucke over because they are easily stoked into uncontrollable race, religion, and gender resentment by the plutocrats. I wouldn’t give one fucken iota of a fucke about these dumshittes fucking themselves up like this, except that they are dragging the entire motherfucken country down with them.

So, yeah, fucke you, you buncha dumb motherfucken racist, christianist, misogynist white working class assholes. I’m sorry you’re not rich, but that doesn’t excuse your being an ignorant bitter asshole who would rather live in a fucken grass hut so long as the fucken niggers and spics have to live in mud huts and you still get to openly hate faggots.

Unbelievable. The hatred of this privileged, wealthy man, who admits he grew up with all the advantages in life, available to few even in the US, is off the charts. No compassion, just hatred for the less fortunate of his race.

The lower class whites
1.deserve their lot.
2.He wouldn’t even take the time to care *except* they are dragging the whole country down with them!

And everyone is shaking their heads with disappointment that the white working class, which has been trying to stay afloat but whose situations have been steadily worsening with no respite for four decades, through republican times and democrat times, declines to join forces politically with folks such as the poster above.

And furthermore, the fact that they shy away is a great mystery that the most educated of the land *who have no excuse for ignorance* just can’t seem to figure out.

I think you’ve got it backwards Privileged Physioprof. *They* are not the ones dragging the country down.

Oh and congratulations – you win the Biggest Hypocrite of 2010 award for saying the following *and* your comment above:

“I figure it’s a lot worse to experience oppression than to be a privileged person having someone say something “mean” to me, so I give a very large benefit of the doubt. All one needs to say–rather than getting defensive–is “Gee, I hadn’t seen it that way, but I will definitely think about it now that you point it out.”

In the broader scope of human interaction in privileged environments, there are a lot more constraints on how the oppressed can interact with others and present themselves than on the privileged. This explains why in an environment that is supposed to be “safe”, the oppressed sometimes feel comfortable just fucken teeing off once in a while. Fucketonnes of frustration and rage and powerlessness are being suppressed all the fucken time, and if the shit leaks out once in a while among friends, the benefit of the doubt should be extended.”

Loonabel, you fucken dumasse, why do you think the motherfucken Republicans–particularly Nixon, Reagan, and Dubya–have had such a wonderful opportunity to funnel vast quantities of wealth from the pockets of the white working class and into the pockets of the plutocrats? Hmm? How did those motherfuckers get elected?

Because people like you don’t learn from experience I guess, Privileged Physioprof.

Yeah, Loonabel, the left should totally cater to the racist, jeezus freak, misogynist, homophobic impulses of the pig-ignorant working-class whites who’ve been voting their hatreds since fucken Nixon, and then they won’t vote for the right-wing plutocrats who play them like fucken fiddles. We’ll be sure to get right on that!

No one asked you to “cater” to anyone, Privileged Physioprof. I was just suggesting that you be true to your own professed “rules to live by” which I have quoted above. Don’t worry, I don’t really expect that you will take my (your own) advice. You seem to be getting way too much satisfaction from all that hating you’re doing.

Loonabel, you fucken fool, your beloved racist, jeezus freak, misogynist, homophobic pig-ignorant working-class whites have been cheering like mad for the last fifty years as the far-right-wing has driven this country to the brink of disaster. Now they’re the “Tea Party” and they continue to cheer as greedy multi-millionaire liars like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh play them on behalf of the insane plutocrat billionaires that want to destroy the working- and middle-classes once and for all.

Sorry, but if working-class whites are so fucken stupid that after fifty motherfucken years of having their own racist, jeezus freak, misogynist, homophobic impulses fluffed, while simultaneously being fed monstrous lies about economic and political reality and getting fucked big-time by said reality, and they are *still* so fucken oblivious that they take lying opportunistic greedy multi-millionaire hucksters like Palin/Beck/Limbaugh seriously, then NO MORE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

Bikemonkey: The Dems screwed them over also. Plus they hate them. Maybe they’re doing it out of spite;)

Privileged Physioprof: They are no more racist than your people. Or any of the other things you mention. They cling to tradition, which is all they have in some ways. The religion is a comfort in these trying times I suppose. Nixon hated hippies because of his own class resentment btw. This is an ugly divide that is not examined nearly enough.

This is offensive. You are talking about my loved ones, who are none of those things. You are scapegoating. You also left out all the good qualities of working class people (compared to the upper class liberals who despise them).

They are honest, loyal, hard-working, funny, and can laugh at themselves. They enjoy a good time, and do really shitty jobs that your beloved upper class liberal elites are feel they are above doing. They are open, generous, and unpretentious. The last wins them a lot of points in my book. They aren’t conniving and two-faced. They are extremely kind and share what little they have easily.

Privileged Physioprof: You are sounding more and more like a baby having a tantrum. If you haven’t noticed, we don’t have that luxury anymore. What can we do to move forward? How can we heal the class divide that is tearing this country apart?

(hint: see your own rules to live by, which I helpfully copied and pasted on to this thread. As with freedom of speech, these rules are meant for the difficult situations, like this one, not the easy ones)

The working-class and middle-class whites who have enabled the deranged excesses of the far-right could start by letting go of their racism, christianism, misogyny, anti-intellectualism, and homophobia and refusing to be hoodwinked by multi-millionaire fake populist hucksters like Palin/Beck/Limbaugh to the benefit of insane billionaires, neocons, and the other plutocrats who seek nothing more than the complete destruction of the working- and middle-classes.

Loonabel, let me ask you a question: Why do think it is that a greedy vicious multi-millionaire neo-con warmonger like Bill Kristol is one of Sarah Palin’s biggest cheerleaders? Do you think Kristol thinks that a New York hymietown wealthy jew like him would be considered a “Real American” by Palin’s christianist admirers?

“My” class, to the extent that it could at least partially be considered as the liberal intellectual elite, has consistently voted not for sicke-fucke right-wing lunatics who don’t even give lip service to the notion that the government–like it or not–plays a massive role in ensuring the proper functioning of the economy, the national infrastructure, and the well-being of its citizens. Loonabel, this is where your beloved white working-class pig-ignorant racist, jeezus freak, misogynist, homophobes have gone so woefully wrong.

They are so obsessed with the idea that some poor fucken nigger, spic, cunt, faggot, or muslim is getting something they don’t “deserve”, that they eagerly hand over the keys to the government to people whose clear-cut goal is to dismantle all of the government apparatus that got your beloved white working-class pig-ignorant racist, jeezus freak, misogynist, homophobes out of their fucken dirt-floor shacks and soul-killing back-breaking physical labor and into fucken decent homes and jobs. This is because–no matter their objective living standard–there is no fucken way in hell they’re gonna give up their perceived deserved white, christian, heterosexual, patriarchal privilege over niggers, spics, cunts, faggots, and muslims. They’ll happily drag the *entire* working and middle classes down–to the benefit of insane billionaire plutocrats and warmongering neocon lunatics–so long as they still have niggers, spics, cunts, faggots, and muslims to spit on.

It’s disgusting. And the only thing that gives me any hope whatsoever is that these nasty vicious neo-confederate white christian assholes are on the wrong side of inexorable demographic change.

Right. You are talking about Hispanics I guess, who don’t hold any fucked up attitudes, right?

Privileged Physioprof, I have spent much time among the white working classes, as well as the black and Hispanic working classes. And to be honest, I’ve never noticed much difference between them. Everyone wants a fair chance at success, that is true. Have you thought of assuring them that they will get a fair chance? So far, I’ve just seen people saying they don’t deserve one if they are white because of the color of their skin. But they are not the ones who should be giving up their chances- why should they? Shouldn’t the upper-middle class whites be stepping aside, the ones who have been hogging all the good jobs and places at the universities? This is just one concern. And lay off mocking their religion. Why is that more acceptable than them mocking yours, which they well know would earn them more of your vicious scorn? The problem with mocking is it can make people even more stubborn. Working class people have little else but their pride.

Yes, they may be simple people, who have little access to or time to process complex information, or even when they do they lack a framework for understanding it. We can only start there, with reality. And they are not so different. If they are bitter, they are probably justified. You probably would be too. This is where the need for compassion comes in.

You know, in all my life I have heard the terms that flow so freely from your keypad spoken aloud only a couple of times, and those were said in jest (bad taste maybe, but hardly falling into the stereotype you keep putting forth).

People are people. If you were in their place you would have the same concerns. If you can’t accept that, you may as well head over to Steve Sailor’s blog along with your friend Katherine.

““My” class, to the extent that it could at least partially be considered as the liberal intellectual elite, has consistently voted not for sicke-fucke right-wing lunatics who don’t even give lip service to the notion that the government–like it or not–plays a massive role in ensuring the proper functioning of the economy, the national infrastructure, and the well-being of its citizens.”
No, they’ve voted for well-meaning but ultimately self-serving left-wing hypocritical jackhats that give lip service to the notion the government can act beneficially whilst simultaneously voting in every possible measure to advantage the wealthy and most of all the corporate overlords. C’mon, PP. Her question wasn’t that hard.

“So far, I’ve just seen people saying they don’t deserve one if they are white because of the color of their skin. “ Yes. That is what you see. Even though nobody said that.

The trouble is, the working classes (of all races) will always self-destruct out of fear manipulated by the pupetmaster classes. If those fears are based on race, it’s particularly effective. But the fewer fair shots for anyone, the better it works. Which is why CPP is horribly naive. Those that got a very unusual fair shot at a legal life as a Latino in this country are not going to turn around and believe fair shots should be common. It’s not how people work when they are scared.

It has been said many many times here, if not in this thread. “So what if they don’t get a chance at a scholarship? Now they know how minorities feel. They’ve had privileges for 400 years, now it’s someone else’s turn. I’ll have sympathy when they start making alliances with other races like I think they ought to, otherwise the hell with them etc etc. “Those are the nicer versions btw, many others are very very hostile and crude, especially if it’s a male being discussed. I don’t think I have ever seen a sympathetic response. And because I have spoken out in sympathy, I have been called every name in the book! MRA, racist, loon, white supremacist even. Come on, becca, where’ve you been???

Also, you make some good points about how the lower classes are manipulated, but I wouldn’t dismiss all their opinions as “fears” – they have as much to say as anyone, and they can see things other classes cannot. They are not fools – you are mistaken if you dismiss their opinions on that basis.

Isabel, I criticize your favored lower class whites on precisely two grounds. Their racism and their voting for the Republican Party that is screwing them over. I think you are making the rest of it up.

Physioprof’s analysis is pretty true but we’re talking the central tendency of the distribution. To be clear, I have no problem with lower class whites who are not racist, misogynist, homophobic and who vote Dem. I can even live with some amount of god bothering…Unlike PP.

I can live with some god bothering if they keepe that stupid fucken shitte to themselves and leave me and other non-delusional people out of their absurd fantasy world of fairies and jeezus and magical sky shitte that serves as an excuse to be bigoted nasty motherfucken assholes.

Let’s draw a line here: there are folk of all races and classes who are smart. A subset of this group is those working-class folk who are bright enough to, say, work and go to college and scrape by and get themselves up there (both of my parents did this. They are both first-generation college graduates and both have masters’ degrees).

Then there are those folk of all classes and races who are too stupid to do these things.

If you’re a black/white/Latino/Asian/extraterrestrial gay/straight/bisexual/omnisexual/autosexual/asexual/shoe-sexual American/Canadian/Chinese/Afghan/Burundian/Japanese/Hungarian/Australian/Cuban man/woman born into the upper/upper-middle/middle/working/lower/negative-lower-and-so-on class and you’re a fucking idiot, you’re a fucking idiot and I’m going to tell you you’re a fucking idiot.

“No, they’ve voted for well-meaning but ultimately self-serving left-wing hypocritical jackhats that give lip service to the notion the government can act beneficially whilst simultaneously voting in every possible measure to advantage the wealthy and most of all the corporate overlords. C’mon, PP. Her question wasn’t that hard. ”

I had much of a choice at the ballot box? Shit, becca, if I could make the entirety of the American public to stfu and write in George/Georgina Q. GoodPresident I would, instead of the shitholes I end up having to vote for defensively because the Republicans – the darlings of the idiot class, which spans all incomes – are gleefully tromping down the primrose path to a world straight out of The fucking Handmaid’s Tale!

“The trouble is, the working classes (of all races) will always self-destruct out of fear manipulated by the pupetmaster classes. If those fears are based on race, it’s particularly effective.”

Isabel sez, “Shouldn’t the upper-middle class whites be stepping aside, the ones who have been hogging all the good jobs and places at the universities?”

Fuck you, asshole. I’m upper-middle class but I earned my place with great grades that I still have (Dean’s List nearly every semester) and I’m studying a fucking legitimate subject (biology). You think I don’t fucking hate those ‘hipster’ dipshits who waste their mummy and daddy’s money on artsy-fartsy and music degrees that ensure they will be perpetually out of work and making no actual contribution to society? Since when did we need fucking entire university departments to teach people how to slop paint on a canvas or whistle a fucking tune?

And the humanities are only marginally more useful. Don’t get me started on the uselessness of English or philosophy majors.

No, I don’t like business majors either. Most are trust-fund kids who treat college as if it were some sort of four-year party and who have no sense of ethics. It’s all about the money for these little shits.

Here’s an idea: If you’re a fucking dipshit, I don’t care how much money you have, you should be paying for smart kids to go to college. Dubya should have funded President Obama’s law degree.

Thanks for the helpful suggestion, Katharine. That sounds like a real workable solution! As usual, thanks for the great contributions to this discussion! Although I have to say, I worry about you sometimes. To you have any friends? Ever do anything fun, or creative? It won’t kill ya, you know – good for the soul and all that.

“To be clear, I have no problem with lower class whites who are not racist, misogynist, homophobic and who vote Dem.”

But BikeMonkey, we have a problem with you. No one likes to be pre-judged as a racist etc. And I still don’t believe we, as a group, are any more racist than any other group on the planet. I still think you are scapegoating.

As far as making things up…like I said to Becca, where the hell have you been the last eighteen months??

You are in willful denial, Isabel. Everything from voting patterns all the way to personal experience confirms it. The fact that you can’t see this obvious fact is…interesting.

Here’s a thought- do you see black or brown constituencies being played politically on the broadest of national platforms with racist dogwhistle and nakedly bigoted themes suggesting poor appylachian whites are to blame for everything? No?

And is your hardworking black or brown Everyperson held up as the very icon of what it means to be a RealAmerican by *any* major political actors? No?

Sorry but your favored class is not oppressed.

And you *still*, in all these discussions, have never provided an answer other than racism for why poor whites vote against their interests in supportingtje GOP. Now why is that? Basically you are continuing to confess that I am right and you have no answer to the charge.

And you *still*, in all these discussions, have never provided an answer other than racism for why poor whites vote against their interests in supportingtje GOP. Now why is that? Basically you are continuing to confess that I am right and you have no answer to the charge.

The only thing approaching an answer that I have ever seen Loonabel put forward is that liberal elites are “mean” to poor whites. She has no response to the fact that it was liberal elites who gave birth to the government programs that got poor whites out of their dirt-floor shacks and into decent homes, out of dangerous back-breaking labor and into decent jobs, and out of the risk of retiring penuriously and without health care and into retiring with social security and medicare.

But yeah, liberal elites are “mean” and the right-wing is “nice”–i.e., glorifies their worst greedy, racist, misogynist, christian theocratic, homophobic, anti-immigrant, vicious impulses–so it only makes sense that they vote lying right-wing hucksters into office who run on an explicit platform of taking away all that shit that the mean old liberal elites put into place. Makes sense to me!

@Isabel- I think I know where you are coming from. It’s still not conducive for *other* people to be able to understand you if you bring up an extremely long list of only very tangentially related grievances at every opening. Even if you think it’s painfully obvious why you are bringing something up, go ahead and spell out the logical connection in the first place.

@Katharine“I had much of a choice at the ballot box? “
Exactly my point. The fact that people in power mostly perpetuate the systems that permitted them to attain power is wholly unshocking to… well, everyone around here, I think.
What that means, and this is what seems to get lost somehow, is that there is not a factually true nice-neat-narrative of ‘good side’ and ‘bad side’. Racism is a matter of degree, as is selfishness. No political party has a monopoly, although it is my personal belief there is still an objectively ‘better side’- on average.

However, your attitude is also an oversimplification. It’s not even ‘thinking people’ and ‘unthinking people’ (see below)

Because, guess what, most of them are uneducated and fairly idiotic.
Having the intellectual chops to pursue many fancy degrees and rigorous studies (in biology no less!) gives you very few tools for being less afraid. It makes you more invested in the status quo, generally.
Formal education as a credentialing system is 98% about rebrainwashing people in the values of the academy. Which are, of course, wholly superior to the values of e.g. 1950s small Indiana town lynchy mclynchersons. But they are not without problems.
Very few people have the capacity to critically think about the systematic problems we have AND the insanity to actually do something about it, like say, running for office.

“Since when did we need fucking entire university departments to teach people how to slop paint on a canvas or whistle a fucking tune?”
As you quite tidily prove, we obviously need several more entire university departments to teach people like you to question the values-systems they’ve been fed. The proper place of art is the remaking of reality. I thought every thinking person realized that?

@bikemonkey“Here’s a thought- do you see black or brown constituencies being played politically on the broadest of national platforms with racist dogwhistle and nakedly bigoted themes suggesting poor appylachian whites are to blame for everything? No?”“You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
Correctly or not (and I can easily see both how that comment was meant [I remember my own chicago to rural Pa culture shock!] and how it was perceived [how many folks from W. Virginia riding greyhound buses do you talk to, and do you know how they see the broader national political dialog?]), that comment was seen as exactly what you describe- blaming poor Appalachian whites.

“Everything from voting patterns all the way to personal experience confirms it.”

Voting patterns = racist? Give me an example. I doubt it, especially as anything and everything is blamed on racism these days. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been called a racist around these parts, even a “vile” racist. As far as I’m concerned the term has lost all meaning. And hey I think you’re a racist!

Personal experience? Gives you a perspective on all peoples of the world? I highly doubt it. It’s also not fair as the playing field, practice at and experience in being “PC” are all very unequal.

“if you bring up an extremely long list of only very tangentially related grievances at every opening”

Long lists at every opening? Can you point to an example of this? I have reread this thread, and think my points are very clear.

“Because, guess what, most of them are uneducated and fairly idiotic.
Having the intellectual chops to pursue many fancy degrees and rigorous studies (in biology no less!) gives you very few tools for being less afraid. It makes you more invested in the status quo, generally.”

Haha, yes a point I have been trying to get Privileged Physioprof to see – the upper classes are more invested in the status quo. This is important not only to the concept of institutionalized racism, but to the very fact that the lower classes are at each others throats.

I love how PPP and all other upper middle class folks blame the very richest – the plutocrats and the oligrarchs etc, and the poor. Is it possible that they are so perfect, so blameless? I would be very suspicious of this if I were you BikeMonkey;) Why trust a group that despises the unfortunate of their own race?

PPP your comment was too weak to respond to. Come on I know you can do better.

Becca, while Obama’s comment was perceived by many people to be blaming poor white people, I think the context between that comment and Republican race-baiting is totally different. I haven’t seen Democrats try to drum up support by demonizing any particular ethnic group lately, but people in the Republican party used that tactic blatantly over and over in the last election.

And becca and BikeMonkey, what I hear is workers who are angry at *both* the steady loss of jobs to outsourcing and the steadily increasing influx of immigrant workers. To judge from a vantage point of economic security that this is evidence of “racism”, even “antipathy to people who are not like them” and “fear of the other” is a typical example of what I am talking about. It’s condescending and unsubstantiated.

So many times people ignore what is being said and declare that they know the real reason – these uneducated people are clearly racists! When actually, they have been very clear about their concerns. For example, wanting to go back to how it used to be is interpreted as before the civil rights struggles, etc, rather than simply when hard work led to better lives.

I think clinging to religion, and more problematic issues that come out of that (homophobia, anti-science) is a different story, and one that clearly needs dealing with from an anti-prejudice standpoint. But again, not by hitting people over the head with the changes. We don’t ask that of traditional people anywhere else in the world, we are even forbidden to use it as a reason to “other” them. Why the double standard?

It’s easy to judge, and blame, from the smug vantage point of upper-middle class academia.

“So far, I’ve just seen people saying they don’t deserve one if they are white because of the color of their skin. “
THIS. This is a grievance that is only tangentially related to the matter at hand.

“Why trust a group that despises the unfortunate of their own race?”
I dunno. Why do you trust a group that despises the fortunate of any other race? Why trust people motivated by hatred? Even assuming there are people who deserve hatred, the mindset isn’t conducive to rational, trustworthy, reasoning.

“And becca and BikeMonkey, what I hear is workers who are angry at *both* the steady loss of jobs to outsourcing and the steadily increasing influx of immigrant workers.”
Fair enough. Although in my own emotion-word ideolect, I don’t think ANGER exists without FEAR. You may think I’m blithely attributing it to what *I* think they think without any actual input from them. Or I may just look at what you look at- people saying they are angry- and see something different- people who are afraid.

But in any event, let’s say there is no fear, only anger. What I don’t see an explanation for is why would they vote republican?

“Becca, while Obama’s comment was perceived by many people to be blaming poor white people, I think the context between that comment and Republican race-baiting is totally different. I haven’t seen Democrats try to drum up support by demonizing any particular ethnic group lately, but people in the Republican party used that tactic blatantly over and over in the last election.”
Oh I fully agree, given the broad social context.
However, whether I’d view it as an “ethnic group” or not, the people of Appalachia were quite understandably Not Happy about that line. It’s Otherizing and Patronizing, in the grand old style. Spoken as it was to his supporters, it was a transparent attempt by Obama to try to drum up support by making it seem like if you disagree with him, you must be among Those Unsavory Types. The fact that the entire culture has an extremely strong (albeit often unspoken) message that certain people are unsavory because of REALLY dumb factors (e.g. skin color) does not change the fact that there are many circles in which there is a remarkably strong (albeit often hilariously presented) message that certain people are unsavory because of mostly dumb factors (e.g. because they are Poor or Uneducated or from Appalachia or Religious or Gun Lovin).

Please just list some examples. I am a biology grad student. I don’t have time to sit through all these ads, discussions of DADT, and stories about George Wallace. Just state your piece, no links and reading assignments please.

I don’t know if the Angle ad was intended to be racist (maybe) but I can see why people would respond to it without being racist.

@becca;

“up an extremely long list of only very tangentially related grievances” the one example you come up with is taken out of context and was a response to Privileged Physioprof. I believe I used that example to show how the lower class whites are scapegoated and not treated fairly. So I don’t understand why you have that opinion of it, and how this an example of a list.

“Here’s a thought- do you see black or brown constituencies being played politically on the broadest of national platforms with racist dogwhistle and nakedly bigoted themes suggesting poor appylachian whites are to blame for everything? No?

And is your hardworking black or brown Everyperson held up as the very icon of what it means to be a RealAmerican by *any* major political actors? No?”

Actually, BikeMonkey, that is not far off what I see here, and from the liberal progressive end in general. That is what we are discussing on this derailed thread is it not? How can we get the mainstream voters on board? Instead of blaming them, and claiming they (all whites, especially lower class) are somehow just more stupid than other groups and more incurably racist so our only hope is that other people will someday outnumber them. This is offensive.

And you justify it by blaming all white people, especially poor and working class whites, for what are for the most part the sins of the minority ruling whites, therefore it’s okay to hate white people in general. And so it’s okay to use the term cracker on a thread comparing redskin to nigger as both unacceptable terms (even if the term cracker is being used ironically by Europeans – that should make it even more unacceptable by the usual liberal standards).

Isabel, when someone upthread asked you for a reference you told them you “don’t have a lifetime to tutor [them].” I provided you with a reference to some examples of what I was talking about so no, I don’t think I will write it out so you don’t have to spend 10 minutes watching a video. My point with the Angle ad was not that it is unarguable racism, but that it was intended to increase support for Angle by telling white people they should be terrified of those brown immigrants.

And speaking of tangentially related grievances, you managed to turn a discussion about people of color into a discussion about white people. You seemed much more offended by the epithets used for white people than those used for people of color, and I don’t really understand why. BikeMonkey used those terms because they are derogatory and offensive, in order to draw attention to how vile he thinks team names like the Redskins are. One can make an argument that it was offensive and unnecessary to do so, but I don’t think an argument for hypocrisy stands up.

queerscientist I didn’t mean to sound bossy – I just ran out of patience how do I know there is any point to the video? Better to sum it up and let people watch if they want not require sitting through a whole episode of something. And I wasn’t asking for references btw I was asking for examples.

And BikeMonkey didn’t even use the term cracker, it was others on he thread. Redneck is a better parallel with redskin and as I’ve pointed out upthread, it is used freely and increasingly.

“And BikeMonkey didn’t even use the term cracker, it was others on he thread. Redneck is a better parallel with redskin and as I’ve pointed out upthread, it is used freely and increasingly.”
An excellent parallel. Any idea why (richer, more privileged) white people would insult other (poorer, less privileged) white people by *likening them to a non-white person*?

Of course redneck is used increasingly, Isabel, as approving self-identification from those that don’t actually work in the hot sun for a living. It is by no means increasing as a dismissive epithet.

And cracker? Please. Not in any sort of general *understanding* so let’s not make up anything about *use* of the term. Face it, there isn’t the same use of anti-group language because there is no similar anti-group concept that needs a label. In short, linguistic analysis fails to support your claim of anti-poorwhite discrimination.

I don’t think they are doing that, becca. A red neck is emblemaric of a white-skinned person. Someone whose skinned has burned from sun exposure while working outdoors. Most refs put the word origin as a derivative of ‘redlegs’ going back to days of slavery. Maybe the important signifier is likening them to peole who work outside all day, and can’t afford proper clothing?

BikeMonkey I have vowed not to swear anymore so this may be cheating, but I have to say your comment above is F.O.S.

“It is by no means increasing as a dismissive epithet.”

I just gave you the Goad example. *All* the uses were pejorative. I will give you the full breakdown if you want. What is your evidence?

“What else do you have?”

Haha. What I have is this, and it’s pretty big. Don’t need anything else, thanks anyway;)

“My point with the Angle ad was not that it is unarguable racism, but that it was intended to increase support for Angle by telling white people they should be terrified of those brown immigrants.”

If that was the intention, then it was racism, so I am not sure what your point is. But your conclusion that white people will be “terrified of those brown immigrants” is silly. Reducing the situation to a simple case of white vs brown racism is as simpleminded and condescending as becca reducing all power relationships down to some form of racism. All social problems on the planet earth literally reduce down to white vs brown/black racism. And anyone who doesn’t agree is – a racist!

Ah, well then Isabel’s reaction is more understandable. Sorry about that, I was primarily coming from just the post itself.

Isabel, the clip (should be ~10 minutes long) is Rachel Maddow discussing her view that Fox demonizes brown people in order to scare white people into the conservative camp. She starts talking about the current election season around the halfway mark.

I don’t disagree with you that people that are poor are oppressed, and that is it possible for poor white people to be oppressed, but there are points in the discussion where it seems like you think that other people on the thread think it’s impossible for any white person to be oppressed, and/or that you think being poor outweighs other oppressed statuses such as being a person of color. I would disagree with both of those. My apologies if that’s not the case, but that’s what it seems like from reading some of your comments.

It’s a complicated issue, and difficult to talk about. I think our society is classist, racist, sexist (and et cetera), and that it is impossible to exist in our society without internalizing some of that. I don’t know that poor white people are any more racist than other people in our society, but as a group they do seem more vulnerable to being manipulated by racist strategies. Which is not terribly surprising, because groups of people that are vulnerable are often more likely to throw other oppressed groups under the bus. (E.g., The “lavender menace” or the gays who were perfectly happy to trade away rights for trans people on ENDA.) I don’t think it’s unreasonable to call people on that behavior, even if the perpetrator(s) are members of other oppressed groups. I agree with you that unnecessarily rude or abrasive behavior isn’t helpful, but neither is a refusal to acknowledge the fucked up views or behavior perpetrated by a particular group. Criticizing a group doesn’t mean they are entirely evil or totally undeserving of support.

Well, I don’t think it’s a simple case of white racism, as there are other issues at play here. My point is that the Angle campaign ran those ads to garner support for their candidate. They portray undocumented immigrants as scary brown people that will harm Nevada’s voters (mostly white), and they use stereotypes about Latino immigrants to do so. In the process, they demonize a group of brown people in order to gain support from white people. So maybe they aren’t coming out and proclaiming themselves racists (debatable), but they are using racism that exists within our society to gain support from people in a position of racial privilege. My original point was that Republicans used brown ethnic groups to scare white people into voting for them, and I do think this is an example of that tactic. Pointing that out doesn’t meant I think it’s the only fucked up thing about that ad, or about Republican campaign strategies.

I don’t think all social issues reduce down to issues of race. But racism permeates our culture, so there are often elements of racism in many social issues in our culture.

“I don’t know that poor white people are any more racist than other people in our society, but as a group they do seem more vulnerable to being manipulated by racist strategies.”

You can only conclude this if you accept that the intentions of the strategies are racist, and that people are swayed because of racism.

“Criticizing a group doesn’t mean they are entirely evil or totally undeserving of support.”

Did you read Physioprof’s comments above?

Now reread them, imagining that he is talking about any other group. Besides rich white Republicans that is. He would be denounced as a bigot.

And why are lower class whites being treated with such open bigotry? Because they are bigoted! Because all of *their* criticisms of other groups come from bigotry, which comes from fear, you see. Even if they are not referring to specific groups, we know that’s what they “really” are doing, we *know* what they are really about-racism. This is because humans fear the ‘other’ and because the white race has infected the whole world with this sick way of othering. Because it always comes down to that also doesn’t it? And it wouldn’t be an accepted way to talk about any other group. And I myself understandably resist joining forces with people who see the world this way.

Also, it is foolish to accept truths about human tendencies (othering) and to simultaneously claim that it is “other” groups who do this.

And queerscientist, it’s one thing to say “people should be able to criticize groups, and groups of people should gracefully accept criticism” and another to declare open season on one particular group and not allow a single word of criticism of most other groups.

The reason I use the term scapegoating is there is even a cleansing, purifying aspect, as when Physioprof’s comments add to his status a an anti-racist=good liberal.

Isabel, you are delusional if you think some tiny corner of the blogosphere is equivalent in impact to the right wing Fox-GOP noise machine. Also if you think any political blame worth discussing lands on the oligarchy. The slightest mention of placing economic responsibility where it belongs and the pundits start screaming “class war, class war”. We’ve never even had a *whiff* of such a thing in almost a century. Maybe we should have a little more actual and open class war type of politics (meaning getting a little bit back from the obscenely wealthy) instead if the one sided covert class war which the middle and lower classes are losing.

Of course we need a class war Bikemonkey, that’s what I have been saying all along. Do you mean to say that no one on the left is leading one because the pundits will complain and the people who listen to Fox News or right wing radio will not vote for them? It is ridiculous what we all put up with. I can’t blame it on the Republicans and Fox News like you all do.

Oh it’s nice to talk about lofty ideals, like an equal chance at success for everyone in the society; but focusing on making sure that everyone has a safety net and that people of different races have equal opportunities is not going to achieve that! How is the greater equality going to be implemented?

The US should be ashamed of having such extreme socio-economic classes, beyond what has worsened in recent years thanks to JWB blah blah. It’s the American way. If we had a 6:1 salary ratio from highest to lowest earner like Japan, the people at the bottom would have a much higher standard of living, take actual vacations etc and the people at the top will still be able to afford luxurious lives. Why do we put up with it? You say average Americans are stupid for not voting for safety nets, but why aren’t you trying to sell them on the idea of prosperity? I think that would be a great campaign. “Prosperity for all Americans.” Sounds downright patriotic.

But then you have to go after the oligarchs, and how are you going to be able to do that? You won’t of course. It might be dangerous! But realizing that and giving up is one thing. The problem is that then we don’t talk about it, it becomes almost a taboo subject, and then we forget about it! And then we focus on fighting amongst ourselves. But at that point, we are fighting over crumbs.