tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post5191541770638947596..comments2016-12-09T18:33:24.266-08:00Comments on The New Theological Movement: Lying to Planned Parenthood: A response to articles published at CatholicVote.orgFather Ryan Erlenbushhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47515337451614595042011-02-18T11:27:32.569-08:002011-02-18T11:27:32.569-08:00Mark Shea has posted a very good final reflection ...Mark Shea has posted a very good final reflection on this whole debate.<br /><br />I will post a link to his article, then I will be closing the comments...<br /><br />http://www.ncregister.com/blog/last-comments-on-lying-for-jesus?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed:+NCRegisterDailyBlog+%2540The+Daily+Register%2541#When:05:00:45ZReginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-68571562264426995402011-02-17T15:28:58.691-08:002011-02-17T15:28:58.691-08:00@Mark (12:10am),
You have a very interesting inter...@Mark (12:10am),<br />You have a very interesting interpretation of the test of Abraham.<br />I, however, am Catholic; hence, I believe that the Church has the supreme authority when it comes to interpreting Scripture.<br /><br />Thus, if someone were to quote Scripture and say, &quot;Telling a falsehood with the intention to deceive is not lying&quot; (as you have); I would say, &quot;A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.&quot; (CCC 2482)<br />You see, this is what separates us...I interpret the Scriptures in light of the Church&#39;s teachings.<br />You, on the other hand, interpret the Scriptures according to your own fancy...and then you force the Church&#39;s teaching into your mental construct...<br /><br />[Dr. Monica Miller has explained (in her article, which favors Live Action) that there are ways to interpret difficult passages from the Old Testament so as to show that there are no lies or deceptive falsehoods involved -- it often has do to with prophecy and foreshadowing]<br /><br />Finally, I have already explained that it is possible to do undercover work without lying...Why do you keep bringing that point up? What I have said is that LiveAction lied -- they could have avoided lying by using broad mental reservations, but they didn&#39;t...is that really so hard for you to understand?<br />[even if they had used broad mental reservations, then I would say that they are still vigilantes and are at least pushing the limits of moral acceptability]<br /><br />Also, part of the reason I expect more from Live Action is because they are Pro-life...hence, it more important for them to have a very high standard of morality.<br />It is because I am on the side of Live Action that I challenge them.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-44662076754757534592011-02-17T15:17:33.135-08:002011-02-17T15:17:33.135-08:00@Anonymous (11:56am), You wrote, &quot;Are we a bu...@Anonymous (11:56am), You wrote, &quot;Are we a bunch of Kantians&quot;... what a strange thing to say! <br />What in this article (or in any of the comments) has resembled anything whatever of Kant? <br />My...how strange some people are...Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-8505925715754342922011-02-17T11:23:06.166-08:002011-02-17T11:23:06.166-08:00@Quaeritur,
The Revolutionary War and Civil War we...@Quaeritur,<br />The Revolutionary War and Civil War were between two nations (in a sense) -- they were fought by people who claimed to be a new/separate nation.<br /><br />However, you do bring up a good point ... there are times when people can fight a &quot;war&quot; of sorts within a single nation -- this then leads to a quasi-anarchy. It is justified in some extreme cases, as when the nation no longer functions as a nation. <br />If we were to hold that the USA was at this point -- justifying a &quot;war&quot; on PP -- then we would be giving up on any legal recourse and abandoning the Constitution, etc.<br />However, LiveAction is precisely not doing this -- the whole goal is to bring the illegal measures of PP to the attention of the public so that the government will be forced to act. <br /><br />Thus, it is clear that Live Action does not think that we are in anarchy or a time of civil revolt ... hence, they cannot claim to be &quot;at war&quot; with PP (except in the most removed metaphorical and spiritual sense).<br /><br />I hope that this makes sense...Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-70128654712925616232011-02-17T02:56:41.887-08:002011-02-17T02:56:41.887-08:00Are we a bunch of Kantians with scrupples about ly...Are we a bunch of Kantians with scrupples about lying but willing to concede everything else? What if there is a second Civil War in this country about abortion, the way the first was about slavery? Will you scrupple then about lying to win such a war? This is how I know the pro-life movement is not serious. Where are the pro-life Daniel Websters, the pro-life Abraham Lincolns, the pro-life John Browns? I know from history what a movement looks like when it is serious, and this one is not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-42514051086214194272011-02-16T15:10:46.097-08:002011-02-16T15:10:46.097-08:00Actually I said that they lied according to your s...Actually I said that they lied according to your standards. The point is larger. There are many who conduct sting operations including the police, the FBI, and also private detectives and security, not to mention news organizations like 60 minutes, 20/20, etc. The practice is widespread. You have gone in and selected out one prolife group and accused them of lying while somehow apparently trying to maintain the rest aren&#39;t. I realize you haven&#39;t addressed some of the others I brought up yet they are out there and well known. Either they are all lying or they are all not lying. To pick on one and say they are the only ones lying in my opinion violates basic standards of fairness that even the secular world recognizes. That was my point.<br /><br />I notice you did not try to answer my question about Abraham. In fact I think that passage proves that scripture and therefore the church clearly teach that such activity is not necessarily lying. This is the reason society and the church have long accepted such stings as legitimate in principle.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-61600220507325614092011-02-16T14:38:14.242-08:002011-02-16T14:38:14.242-08:00You may have covered this, but in regard to using ...You may have covered this, but in regard to using the war language; what about action of a militia as opposed to a state run army? You say, &quot;Let us simply state that war is waged between nations, not between movements or individuals within a single nation.&quot; What about the revolutionary war or the Civil war? The revolutionary war was fought/won by the militia, and the Civil war was within a single nation?Quaeriturnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-78837640458114668272011-02-16T14:35:25.283-08:002011-02-16T14:35:25.283-08:00Reginaldus,
What do you believe Live Action shoul...Reginaldus,<br /><br />What do you believe Live Action should have done instead?Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13693728555801144332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-50822390802380157912011-02-16T14:29:05.339-08:002011-02-16T14:29:05.339-08:00@John, I have never, nor will I ever, support Plan...@John, I have never, nor will I ever, support Planned Parenthood in any way.<br />I have never claimed that the videos by LiveAction were fake, or doctored, nor have I intimated that they were hiding other (favorable) videos.<br />I have never defended Planned Parenthood.<br /><br />All I have ever done is to say that LiveAction should not have lied ... I am sorry that you think that this makes me an enemy ...<br /><br />I would say that Planned Parenthood is the enemy ... I just want my friends (Lila Rose and company) to fight valiantly and in the Truth.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-31397894676020593532011-02-16T13:31:07.105-08:002011-02-16T13:31:07.105-08:00Since some are VERY concerned about lies in this d...Since some are VERY concerned about lies in this discussion, let me ask you this:<br /><br />Would you approve of the videos if Live Action had arranged for an active pimp to have conducted these &quot;stings&quot;?<br />Why or why not?Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13693728555801144332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-18223081943125290672011-02-16T13:27:46.035-08:002011-02-16T13:27:46.035-08:00Reginaldus,
First, I haven&#39;t given in to despa...Reginaldus,<br />First, I haven&#39;t given in to despair in any manner. I regret that you didn&#39;t understand my comments regarding the Bible, law, morals, or Rosa Parks, but it seems you didn&#39;t, so I guess I&#39;ll refocus.<br /><br />Frankly, I&#39;m quite shocked by the reactions that you and numerous others offer in response to these videos.<br />Simply put, too many seem to believe that Planned Parenthood has been wrongly maligned by a group of reckless hooligans, while Live Action has been cast as a reckless band of vigilantes.<br /><br />I find these attitudes..incredible.<br /><br />So, in spite of Lila Rose herself being a college graduate, in spite of the general nonchalance of the Planned Parenthood staffers, in spite of Planned Parenthood&#39;s known euphemisms and behavior, you&#39;re still going to insist that Live Action acted immorally or that Planned Parenthood did not?<br /><br />How much morality will you twist to deny the Truth?<br /><br />When I commented on Rosa Parks and/or the Bible, I tried to emphasize how society needed to be confronted by the gross injustice of segregation and so forth in the south. I think the same thing needs to happen with regard to abortion and various related actions.<br /><br />You insist that Planned Parenthood did something illegal..only possibly. You or another insisted that Live Action could be concealing numerous other tapes that&#39;re friendly toward Planned Parenthood.<br /><br />I think these concerns reflect a reasonable desire for justice, but it&#39;s aimed the wrong way.<br />Live Action&#39;s videos have both showcased behaviors on the part of Planned Parenthood AND the laws that should apply, but haven&#39;t been enforced.<br />And, judging by the reactions of the staffers in those cases that&#39;ve been documented on video, I suspect that the questions Live Action raised have probably been heard numerous times before.<br /><br />Offering someone the benefit of the doubt is good, but let&#39;s make sure we apply it both ways.<br /><br />Ultimately, I wonder if many people are reacting poorly to these videos and giving Live Action a tough time because..too many don&#39;t wish to see the routine contempt for law that Planned Parenthood very likely could be exercising. Too many people don&#39;t wish to admit that one sin could lead to another.<br /><br />I think it noteworthy that, as a result of Live Action&#39;s videos, several State&#39;s Attourney&#39;s General have begun paying rather more heed to Planned Parenthood clinics, while at the same time, I have yet to hear even one official complain about the legality of Live Action.<br /><br />What we do see and what we don&#39;t seems rather telling, does it not?<br /><br />Evil and falsehood can only remain concealed for so long....Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13693728555801144332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-66671305459588609252011-02-16T12:33:09.254-08:002011-02-16T12:33:09.254-08:00Mark Shea has, in the end, decided that what Live ...Mark Shea has, in the end, decided that what Live Action has done is to lie -- therefore, it is wrong.<br />http://www.ncregister.com/blog/dawn-eden-is-right-darn-it?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed:+NCRegisterDailyBlog+%2540The+Daily+Register%2541#When:05:00:49Z<br /><br />This is a follow up article to his first, which was written in relation to the first article written here at NTM.Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-48099057708920859782011-02-16T10:50:53.651-08:002011-02-16T10:50:53.651-08:00@Mark (7:22pm),
I&#39;m interested to see that the...@Mark (7:22pm),<br />I&#39;m interested to see that the answer is so clear to you. Even I, as bold as I am, was hesitant in regard to the question of the police and the relation between the LiveAction vigilantes and undercover police work...<br /><br />However, you have intimated that those who agree with the articles I have written are not fair minded people. You wrote: &quot;I would like to put this to a Church authority (or even just a fair arbitrator) to see whether any fair minded person could possibly agree with you.&quot; <br />I&#39;m sorry you feel that way.<br /><br />I myself can see that fair-minded people can disagree on this point: for example, Dr. Miller disagrees with me.<br />However, fair-minded individuals do not disagree about whether lying is always wrong. The point of debate is whether the police sting operations can be done with broad mental reservations (and I have argued that they can be, and are therefore morally acceptable). Also, the debate hinges on whether what Live Action has in fact done is broad or strict mental reservation -- I think it is strict mental reservation and is therefore a lie.<br /><br />You on the other hand have stated that the police are lying in their undercover work. You imply that LiveAction also is lying. But you claim that there is no problem with these lies, since the Church has not specifically condemned the police.<br /><br />I would ask you this: Did you have to read an encyclical condemning topless bars before you decided that it would be wrong for a man to manage such an establishment? Or was it enough for Christ to say, &quot;Do not have lust in your heart&quot;? <br /><br />For me, it is enough for the Church to say that &quot;lying is to be condemned&quot; -- why does she need further to specify that police cannot lie in their undercover work?Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-24367883266694256802011-02-16T10:22:27.693-08:002011-02-16T10:22:27.693-08:00As a matter of fact, I did read your previous arti...As a matter of fact, I did read your previous article. Undercover agents posing as drug dealers usually do not actually have any drugs to sell. Even if they do, they cannot sell them or they would be breaking the law. So they cannot say they are drug dealers because they are not drug dealers-they are in fact the police. (Does this point really have to be further established?) One can surely lie with purposeful actions as easily as with the spoken word. A police officer posing as a drug dealer is lying with every action and every word (according to your standard of lying). In fact, even you admit as much in the article when you later say you don&#39;t know what the answer is. Clearly, you will have to do better than that. With all due respect, if that is your best argument, I think your case completely fails. I would like to put this to a Church authority (or even just a fair arbitrator) to see whether any fair minded person could possibly agree with you. There is no difference, from a moral standpoint, between police sting operations and private party sting operations. (Also note that private parties also include for example private detectives, and security for various institutions including universities, corporations, etc. who also run sting operations.)<br /><br />My question was really a different one. Given the clear similarities between police undercover work and what LiveAction is doing, which even you concede in your article, why has this question not been raised before over the many years of police undercover work? The Church routinely comments on, and objects to, practices by the police or other authorities it believes are wrong. Why is this argument suddenly now being brought out against the prolife movement? Why can the prolife movement not reasonably conclude that since the church, over all these years, has never raised an objection, it is in fact a legitimate practice?<br /> <br />I would also like to ask a completely separate question that I would greatly appreciate an answer to. According to the exact same standard of lying that you are applying to Live Action, was God lying in Genesis 22:2 when he ordered Abraham to kill his son Isaac? (Please note use of the word &quot;shall&quot;.)<br /> <br />&quot;Then God said: &quot;Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you.&quot;&quot;Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-3278132190772962082011-02-16T07:39:36.440-08:002011-02-16T07:39:36.440-08:00@&quot;A Catholic&quot; (11:57pm),
Though I had to...@&quot;A Catholic&quot; (11:57pm),<br />Though I had to delete your other comment, I thank you for this one.<br /><br />Indeed, reason and discourse are essential... I will second your comment: &quot;Be sure to read Dr. Monica Migliorino-Miller&#39;s treatise on www.catholicvote.org.&quot; <br />In fact, by entering into this debate (and responding to her article), I am implicitly encouraging others to read what she has written.<br /><br />What has concerned me most is this: Not so much that people disagree (that is to be expected), but that some people are trying to shout down any and all discussion of this topic! They will say that public discourse is &quot;ridiculous&quot; or &quot;sickening&quot; ... they close their ears and rush forward to stone any who question.<br />Simply for raising a question about one particular &quot;operation&quot; of Live Action, I am labeled an &quot;enemy&quot;, I am lumped in with PP supporters.<br /><br />Moreover, many people are asking for my identity... I would mention that, in the comments to a previous article, several persons began discussing a hypothetical situation in which I would get knifed to death by the mafia... do you think this makes me particularly inclined to tell people who I am and where I live?<br /><br /><br />In any case, &quot;A Catholic&quot;, I second your statement: &quot;The moral question of whether the Live Action undercover individuals committed a grave sin against the 8th commandment is an important one to address, if we claim to be Catholic.&quot;Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-49108738686147540062011-02-16T07:31:29.153-08:002011-02-16T07:31:29.153-08:00@Mark (12:13am),
I can see that you have not read ...@Mark (12:13am),<br />I can see that you have not read my earlier articles... it&#39;s ok, they are a bit long...<br /><br />The point is: In the second (of the three articles I have written), I argued that what Live Action has done is significantly different from what police sting operations are doing.<br /><br />Moreover, I attempted to show that it would be possible for a police agent (or spy) to do undercover work without lying, making use of &quot;broad mental reservations&quot;.<br /><br />Please read that portion of the previous article before making any further comments.<br /><br />Also, I&#39;m very sorry that you see me as attacking the pro-life movement -- it is a sad day when reason and public discourse are seen as a threat...<br /><br />Blessings. +Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-2795169084056342672011-02-16T07:20:27.197-08:002011-02-16T07:20:27.197-08:00@John (7:44am),
I&#39;m surprised at how concerned...@John (7:44am),<br />I&#39;m surprised at how concerned you are with issues of legality. You seem to think that I share your same concerns...I do not (at least not to the same extent).<br />Live Action has done nothing illegal -- here we agree.<br />Planned Parenthood has (possibly) done something illegal -- again, we agree.<br />Rosa Parks did something illegal -- again, we agree.<br /><br />I never said that LiveAction&#39;s lies were wrong because they broke the law. They are wrong because they are contrary to the natural law, and divine positive law as taught by Christ and his Church.<br /><br />Rosa Parks&#39; actions did not involve lies -- so I&#39;m not sure why you bring her into this...<br /><br />Finally, I find your statement - &quot;Planned Parenthood and their friends aren&#39;t going to quit merely because we show them a Bible.&quot; - very enlightening; it stinks of despair. You intimate that the moral means (and specifically those which are accepted by the Bible) are not enough to win the battle. You seem to claim that we need something more drastic...<br /><br />Remember what happened to Saul when he decided that he needed to take extreme measures and went to the witch...<br />No, I tell you, God will win the battle; and we need to fight with him who is both Life and Truth!Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-22251387966034886912011-02-15T22:44:12.111-08:002011-02-15T22:44:12.111-08:00I must admit, I find the focus of several of these...I must admit, I find the focus of several of these comments quite horrifying.<br />Seems that many want to insist that LiveAction has committed some sort of sin with their video efforts and/or that warfare must always involve force of arms and must always occur between at least two nation states.<br /><br />I must assure you all, these views are dangerously negligent.<br /><br />Warfare, in it&#39;s strictest sense, DOES involve a declaration of a state of war by a competent authority. Make no mistake though, warfare happens quite often and use of force of arms only comes into play fairly rarely.<br /><br />Thanks be to God.<br /><br />As for Planned Parenthood and Live Action, I think you&#39;re kidding yourself if you think Live Action has committed some horrid act, or if you think Planned Parenthood will behave legally when no one&#39;s looking.<br /><br />And, I think these worries about their ethics are somewhat overblown. Yes, there&#39;s risk to it. I hate to tell you this, but we aren&#39;t going to win ANY battle of any kind if we won&#39;t take chances. Planned Parenthood and their friends aren&#39;t going to quit merely because we show them a Bible.<br /><br />I think it noteworthy though that, to date, no film I&#39;ve seen from Live Action has accused anyone of murder or any other crime without proof. I think they&#39;re walking a VERY fine line and they know it.<br /><br />All they&#39;ve done is walk into clinics, pose as someone who would be completely plausible as a &quot;client&quot;, and allow Planned Parenthood&#39;s staff&#39;s actions to speak for themselves.<br /><br />For me then, the question is not, when will they quit.<br /><br />The question is, when we will demand that appropriate law enforcement agencies conduct these operations, such that actual arrest warrants can be issued?<br /><br />If you&#39;re still insistent that Live Action acts immorally, may I ask what you think of Rosa Parks actions on the bus?<br /><br />Her refusal to move was not only illegal, but considered &quot;immoral&quot; by many then too.Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13693728555801144332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-74089730694110946872011-02-15T16:01:49.491-08:002011-02-15T16:01:49.491-08:00On account of some very aggressive commentators, I...On account of some very aggressive commentators, I have had to enable comment moderation (at least for a day or two).Reginaldushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07557817305024750902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-43801452378594799692011-02-15T15:13:43.107-08:002011-02-15T15:13:43.107-08:00The Police have been conducting sting operations f...The Police have been conducting sting operations for decades if not centuries. The church has never objected on moral grounds. Clearly that is proof positive that the church considers this acceptable. This issue has not been legitimately raised. I hope the prolife movement will see that ignore this and carry on. Bottom line, approaching abortion rights will be like approaching a hornets nest. As the movement comes closer to actually doing something the attacks will become furious. Some will come from within the church as this one has. This must be understood and accepted. The prolife movement will have to learn to go forward in the face of this to be successful.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-6903769652407292682011-02-15T15:10:17.449-08:002011-02-15T15:10:17.449-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-25760389345592456512011-02-15T14:57:36.461-08:002011-02-15T14:57:36.461-08:00From &quot;A Catholic&quot;
To: Mara
I like your...From &quot;A Catholic&quot; <br />To: Mara<br /><br />I like your comment. This debate is turning the attention away from the grave moral situation of our tax money going to support the murder of unborn children through Planned Parenthood. However, the moral question of whether the Live Action undercover individuals committed a grave sin against the 8th commandment is an important one to address, if we claim to be Catholic, which I do. <br /><br />Be sure to read Dr. Monica Migliorino-Miller&#39;s treatise on www.catholicvote.org.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-47444020461108797452011-02-15T08:42:47.990-08:002011-02-15T08:42:47.990-08:00IF the police, FBI and government cared enough to ...IF the police, FBI and government cared enough to do their own investigative work, Live Action wouldn&#39;t need to do this! But as sidewalk counselors have testified, police turn a blind eye, and governments allow clinics to operate without oversight. I find this &quot;lying&quot; debate ridiculous and shifting our focus away from what is the real problem.Marahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16452455378334064086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-39937028428878602622011-02-15T05:05:13.982-08:002011-02-15T05:05:13.982-08:00@John Church, in what way is wearing makeup, high ...@John Church, in what way is wearing makeup, high heels, etc., saying something that you know is false?<br /><br />@Anonymous, Dawn Eden and William Doino deal with the myth of the false baptismal certificates during WWII. In short, it did not happen. But even if it did, it would not show that lying can be justified.dcshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18424510747759223459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5578980753063154388.post-16283589490061036552011-02-15T04:23:38.619-08:002011-02-15T04:23:38.619-08:00oh reginaldus - you change [quantify] the argument...oh reginaldus - you change [quantify] the argument but that&#39;s ok. - I fear for truth when intelligent people become confused on the priority of action and what is required see matt 11;25.- Lying[deliberate false words with the intention to deceive] may be always wrong... ok.- but we must be clear in mind the limits of any culpability; if the all important matter of intention is to save a precious life from the hands of PP and a wayward mother / father- for time to baptise..... <br />I&#39;d willingly lie to do that and take my chances with the Divine Judge. To do otherwise just doesn&#39;t pass the smell test...<br /><br />I can envision &quot;well intentioned, principled&#39; folks being principled into catatonia [ we can&#39;t free those slaves - we&#39;d be lying if we said we didn&#39;t know where they were]- does 3,000 deaths per day mean anything in the grand prioritized scheme of things or is it all lost[ leveled ] in principle? must not every drop of shed infants blood be paid for with the equivalent drops of blood from Principled folk who stood by[but annually marched??!!] and allowed them to be butchered? - let this generation pass and let a new generation come into play, like venerable Lila , et. al. who are willing to engage in the battle for life against sin at the effective level and not stand by and promulgate esoteric argument in lieu of real manly[ St. Joseph like] actiongedda fanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11934506306702772703noreply@blogger.com