Yes, there is more to skating than jumping, but it doesn't mean that jumping should be discounted. I don't want to be a party pooper but you make it sound like just because she was crying tears of joy she deserved to win the bronze medal which is ... well, stupid.

Now, I think it could have went either way, really, because Miki Ando was 11th after the SP and Laura had a much bigger lead over Miki. However, saying that Laura was simply "better in the short" as the reason why she deserved the medal is completely foolish.

With that said, Laura, congratulations on the bronze medal, but do improve next season.

Because we don't think that Laura's spins and spirals were sooo wonderful that they should have ignored the fact that her program was a heck of a lot easier than the other girls. (By quite a bit) This is suppose to be a sport and the jumps are over half of the elements that are judged. So when someone performs really poor jumping content and loses to people who executed high level jumps and high level spins and spirals, its annoying to say the least.

Again, you need to be able to QUANTIFY what you see, not based on just merely a hunch.

But Lepisto had a mistake in the short program too, she had a fall out on the double axel. The only person who did both programs well was Mao and to a smaller extent in comparision to what a lot of other people did Marakova.

FYI, nobody had a clean SP. Nagasu got DG on her 3/3. Asada got DG on the Triple Axel. The stepping out on the 2A is less costly because negative GOE for 2A is less pronounced than Triples. That's why the seriousness of the mistakes need to be quantified and measured as an aggregate number with other executed elements. Qualtiative comparison will get us no where near the actual results, even less as an argument of fairness or not because doing so would be omitting other considerations that you are repeatedly doing.

Originally Posted by bekalc

However, when you look at Ksensia she did a clean short with a 3toe/3toe, and a 3flip. (higher content than Lauras) and even if Marakova had not missed her 3sal, she still would have finished behind Laura. That's with 6 triples in the long to Laura's 3 and that's including a 3toe/3toe in the long too.

Its just hard for me to accept people arguing that the system is truly judging the jumps fairly. Because its not. I mean Lauras 2/2/2 combination was worth more than a 3toe, and no skater will tell you that Laura's 2/2/2 combination was harder.

Ksenia has some very serious issues with respect to her choregraphy, notably front loading her LP with 5 jumping passes, one after the other, just ensured she would get killed on PCS. While it is true that 2/2/2 in Laura's case did add up to a higher base value than a Triple Toe. However, each skater is only allowed to do one 3 jump combo per LP. In other words, someone who wasted it on 2/2/2 will in fact be penalized through lost opportunity and it cannot be repeated again, so there is no possibility that the said skater can again try do that in a program in lieu of a Triple. Besides, a three jump combination involving doubles may or may not be as hard as a Triple Toe. It depends. The objective system is set up to give all jumps a value, not to determine whether a said element is more difficult than another or not. It doesn't quite work that way since a value system, although logical, will always have an arbitrary component that may or may not make perfect intuitive sense. Yet, it doesn't mean the system is flawed.

Originally Posted by bekalc

This is a sport and they need to find a balance between weighing risk, quality, and penalizing failure. The current system just doesn't do that and seriously undervalues jumps.

Sorry, I think you are seriously misinformed. In the Ladies' skating, jumps account for about 70~75% of total TES in the Free Skate, only about 30% come from the non-jump elements. I think your claim stems for your poor understanding of how the system actually works, which causes the misgivings on your part. Like I recommneded you earlier, please take a sheet paper, mark down the elements and apply the rules. Do this exercise for once during a live competition, I guarantee you will gain some new perspective and appreciation of how the system actually work and possibly, a little happier since you will probably enjoy watching the skating a little more as opposed to being frustrated with something that you don't understand.

I thought Laura deserved bronze - but did not analyze it as carefully as you did. I did see terrific IN, CH and TR - thought she was as good or better than Yuna or Mao in those categories.

It was interesting reading what you said about the jumps - the lack of triples - and that her entire program has to be more carefully considered. Just dismissing it as "only three triples" does not give fair consideration to the CoP.

Thanks again - I will look at Mirai's LP very carefully later - still a bit bummed about it

Did anyone take a look at the crazy GOE that Yu-na got for her freeskate?

+2 for the Triple Flip (yeah it clean but not that amazing)+3 for her level 4 spiral sequence (come on. Not even Sasha or Caroline Zhang gets that).
+.50 on the straight line step (it's only +.50 but I would not have given it a + at all. One judge gave her a +3 on it! Obviously a korean judge.)

If the GOE was not so inflated yu-na would not have won the freeskate, something she certainly did not deserve to do with that poor performance.

Another point:
That Lepisto won the bronze medal at worlds with only 3 triples should be a huge vote of confidence for the Alissas and Sashas of the world and should goad them into coming back next season!

Did anyone take a look at the crazy GOE that Yu-na got for her freeskate?

+2 for the Triple Flip (yeah it clean but not that amazing)+3 for her level 4 spiral sequence (come on. Not even Sasha or Caroline Zhang gets that).
+.50 on the straight line step (it's only +.50 but I would not have given it a + at all. One judge gave her a +3 on it! Obviously a korean judge.)

If the GOE was not so inflated yu-na would not have won the freeskate, something she certainly did not deserve to do with that poor performance.

Another point:
That Lepisto won the bronze medal at worlds with only 3 triples should be a huge vote of confidence for the Alissas and Sashas of the world and should goad them into coming back next season!

At the end of the SP, Universal Sports showed why her score was so much lower than at the Olympics. her flip in the SP at the olympics received 7.7. Her flip here received 1.4x.

7.7 for a triple flip. I seriously think the judges need to cool it with the +GOE. That's a ridiculous score. Has any men ever gotten that score for a triple flip?
Her triple lutz is worth more than a triple axel.

Did anyone take a look at the crazy GOE that Yu-na got for her freeskate?

+2 for the Triple Flip (yeah it clean but not that amazing)+3 for her level 4 spiral sequence (come on. Not even Sasha or Caroline Zhang gets that).
+.50 on the straight line step (it's only +.50 but I would not have given it a + at all. One judge gave her a +3 on it! Obviously a korean judge.)

If the GOE was not so inflated yu-na would not have won the freeskate, something she certainly did not deserve to do with that poor performance.

Another point:
That Lepisto won the bronze medal at worlds with only 3 triples should be a huge vote of confidence for the Alissas and Sashas of the world and should goad them into coming back next season!

Laura did execute a very good 3x3 and also a 3Lz.
But yes, skaters with as much artistry as Alissa and Sasha could still do well in this system.
But we have to remember Laura was not falling down or getting -GOE or any urs/edge calls - and she did get credit for those double jumps.

Yes, there is more to skating than jumping, but it doesn't mean that jumping should be discounted. I don't want to be a party pooper but you make it sound like just because she was crying tears of joy she deserved to win the bronze medal which is ... well, stupid.

Now, I think it could have went either way, really, because Miki Ando was 11th after the SP and Laura had a much bigger lead over Miki. However, saying that Laura was simply "better in the short" as the reason why she deserved the medal is completely foolish.

With that said, Laura, congratulations on the bronze medal, but do improve next season.

When did I say that because Laura was crying tears of joy or since she was better in short than Miki is the reason she deserved this bronze? Never.

I think Laura has really good posture, expression and choreography. She has worldclass footwork and her spins are great. That is why she deserved this bronze. Was it Laura's fault that this was enough for the bronze? No, the judges decided it. It just seems that some of you are blaming her for winning this medal. And I do not think that is fair. The judges are the same for everyone. And like everyone has said, it could have gone either way. No one had 100 % success in LP, due to the long season or what? I do not know. And I also have to mention that Laura herself wasn't 100% satisfied with her performance. She was happy for the medal, but sorry she could't do the program perfectly.

I also have to say that for me personally the jumps are not the main thing that makes a good performance, but of course they are also a part of it. You can learn to jump but presentation mainly comes from inside. I could see how Laura enjoyed performing yesterday with or without her triples succeeding. And she has already proved she can also jump. (Olympics, anyone?)

But yeah, everyone has their own opinion and there is no point continue fighting about it.
But from me: Gongratulations Laura and well done! You are a world class skater!

Thanks, Cynthia is my sentimental favourte, i think she was such a surprise here and we can only hope she is this close again for challenging for a medal. It is easier to understand their placements when we begin to look more closely at the new scoring. Still think at times the new scoring system needs more tweaking but from the perspective of the new rules now we cannot really say that Laura did not deserve it. I however hope some things are adjusted slightly with the scoring.

Thanks, Cynthia is my sentimental favourte, i think she was such a surprise here and we can only hope she is this close again for challenging for a medal. It is easier to understand their placements when we begin to look more closely at the new scoring. Still think at times the new scoring system needs more tweaking but from the perspective of the new rules now we cannot really say that Laura did not deserve it. I however hope some things are adjusted slightly with the scoring.

I added some comments re: questions on Laura's GOE. Cynthia is my sentimental favorite as well. If I were in a situation where I was aware her chance of getting the medal hinges on Laura's skate, I am not sure I would be able to be as objective as I was in an after the fact analysis & review.

As for your comment that the new scoring system needs more tweaking, I have to agree. Notably, look at the Double Axels. The positive GOE on those Double Axels are a little crazy. Laura did two Double Axels in the second half of her programs and got some pretty big GOE points, well deserved, in accordance to the rules. Personally, I think Double Axels getting as much positive GOE potential as Triple Axels or Triple Lutz is nuts. But that's just my opinion, it's not the rules and we shouldn't be inventing rules just because we don't like it. Also, I don't think we should be gaming the rules because we don't approve either. If I was asked to evaluate what GOE should Laura get on her Double Axels, then that should be the only question in my mind, is it zero, +, ++, or +++ and why. Nothing else should enter into the consideration of that question. If the jump clearly warrants a ++, then it wouldn't be right for someone to try to mark that as + only because he/she feels there is too much GOE being given to Double Axels.

It is what it is though. Laura Lepisto smartly constructed her program to maximize her points and thus won the Bronze. In a way, she got lucky because both Phaneuf and Ando got some unexpected level downgrade on their non-jump elements. For example, if Phaneuf had received a Level 4 on her Spiral as opposed to a Level 2, she would have won the Bronze.

Thanks for your point breakdown and analysis, wallylutz. I must say though, I think some of the objection to the outcome from certain fans/posters is based on criticism of the IJS--conceptually, for example, no number of double jumps should really "add up" to a 3Axel, you know?

I did not watch all the performances. I do like Lepisto and she seemed really happy to win her Bronze, so I'm happy for her in that sense and can't say who "should" have gotten it in her stead. Lepisto has a beautiful style and carriage that stands out to me and she is my favourite European lady.