Comments on: What Do We Owe the Indians?http://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm
HistoryNet.com contains daily features, photo galleries and over 5,000 articles originally published in our various magazines.Thu, 22 Feb 2018 03:22:00 +0000hourly1https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.4By: AbnerBhattacharhttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5179445
Fri, 07 Jul 2017 20:39:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5179445My older disqus account was deleted, but you’re right about the arrogance and haughtiness of American Indian or Native American groups. I agree with you extent that it does get dull to hear the same complaints by Native American or American Indian groups about how bad the White man was, while pushing the Noble Savage theory. That said, this nation’s treatment of American Indians or Native Americans was arrogant and haughty. American Indians or Native Americans do deserve to be treated nicely and fairly as all other ethnic groups. Here’s how to respond to posters or any1 who gives Noble Savage theory or lectures about how poorly American Indians are treated.

With stealing American Indian or Native American territory-is it because wars were used to take land from them or is the main meaning of this that the Whites were better @ being greedy ? When American Indians or Native Americans wanted territory, they used wars to get it from a neighboring tribe. In some cases, American Indian or Native American tribes would kill a neighboring tribes men in a war and then take the women and girls as their wives. Quanah Parker was the last Comanche chief-his mom was kidnapped when she was 9 years old and forced to become a Comanche chief’s wife.

]]>By: abnerbhatachhttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5179401
Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:48:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5179401My older disqus account was deleted, but you’re right about the arrogance and haughtiness of American Indian or Native American groups. I agree with you extent that it does get dull to hear the same complaints by Native American or American Indian groups about how bad the White man was, while pushing the Noble Savage theory. That said, this nation’s treatment of American Indians or Native Americans was arrogant and haughty. American Indians or Native Americans do deserve to be treated nicely and fairly as all other ethnic groups. Here’s how to respond to posters or any1 who gives Noble Savage theory or lectures about how poorly American Indians are treated.

With stealing American Indian or Native American territory-is it because wars were used to take land from them or is the main meaning of this that the Whites were better @ being greedy ? When American Indians or Native Americans wanted territory, they used wars to get it from a neighboring tribe. In some cases, American Indian or Native American tribes would kill a neighboring tribes men in a war and then take the women and girls as their wives. Quanah Parker was the last Comanche chief-his mom was kidnapped when she was 9 years old and forced to become a Comanche chief’s wife.

]]>By: AbnerBhattachahttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5179393
Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:24:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5179393This is my new account, as my old account has been deleted. You’re right about the arrogance & haughtiness of American Indians or Native Americans.

To say a Native American tribe (for eg. Cherokees) own the entire USA (or the North American continent) is like saying that China owns all of Asia because they’re Chinese. American Indian or Native American tribes are distinct. You define let’s say Cherokee territory by where they lived, raised their families, buried their dead, hunted for food and waters where they fished.

With was land stolen from Native Americans or American Indians? Wars were used by Whites to take lands from American Indians, only this topic is more complex and complicated. Yes, you have Europeans taking territory from Native Americans who were the original owners, who always had the territory without taking it from other tribes, so that would be stealing from original owners.

In some cases, Europeans took away Native American conquests such as los conquistadores conquest of the Aztecs and Incas would be taking away Native American conquests. Los conquistadores would not be the original owners, only the Aztecs and Incas would also not be the original owners as Aztecs and Incas got their lands conquering other Indian tribes before they were conquered, so that could be called taking American Indian conquests. Of course, the Spanish and Portuguese in conquering Iberoamerica & colonization did things for Spain and Portugal’s (Brazil being a Portuguese colony) interests against that of Native Americans.

With territory, in some cases you have Native American tribes voluntarily abandoning a territory, because they found it of no use. If a territory is abandoned, then it would not be stealing if some1 else (Native American or White) settles on the territory as it’s whoever wants it and arrives there first, gets it.

In some cases you had virgin territory in the Americas-lands which were not even touched. If a land had never been lived on (or even known about), then whoever finds it and settles there gets the territory (be they White or Native American). Here it would not be taking Native American lands.

With Solutrians or Solutrians-is it possible there were Europeans who immigrated to the Americas during the Ice Age? As they have found DNA mummied remains of Whites in the Americas and as some Native American art depicts people with light skin, it’s possible that individual Whites could have immigrated to the Americas during the Ice Age, though it would be a small #. Solutrians or Solutreans would not own all of the Americas just as Cherokees would not own all of the USA. That also wouldn’t change the fact that treatment of Native Americans or American Indians was sometimes arrogant, but it’s possible individual Europeans or Solutrians could have immigrated to the Americas during the Ice Age.

Before continuing, will say that I am OK with American Indian reservations not paying property taxes and I am OK with Indian reservations only allowing Native Americans to live on reservations, it is their house.

With stealing American Indian or Native American territory-is it because wars were used to take land from them or is the main meaing of this that the Whites were better @ being greedy ? When American Indians or Native Americans wanted territory, they used wars to get it from a neighboring tribe. In some cases, American Indian or Native American tribes would kill a neighboring tribes men in a war and then take the women and girls as their wives. Quanah Parker was the last Comanche chief-his mom was kidnapped when she was 9 years old and forced to become a Comanche chief’s wife.

I’ve found with Native Americans or American Indians is that many times when they talk of ‘stolen land’ what they imply is ‘you did what I wanted to do.’ There was greed & arrogance on both the Whites & Native American sides. Yes, this nations treatment of American Indians was arrogant & wars were used to take land from American Indians. Truth about greed is that Whites were just better in greed. Before the Whites, American Indians when they wanted land be it living grounds, hunting grounds, burial grounds & fishing waters got it from other tribes by wars. When the Whites came, they wanted the same things & more be they metals such as iron, gold, silver, copper & bronze.

Truth is that when people get advanced & complicated in their technologies, the more they want. People are just potentially greedy. If American Indian tribes (esp. tribes like the Sioux, Comanches, Apaches, Aztecs, etc.) had better weapons & capabilities, they would have been conquering other places in the world & imposing their laws on others. Whites ( I’m not White) had better military capability or capacity, but when it comes to thinking, they’re the same. People are the same everywhere-Whites, Blacks, American Indians, etc. That doesn’t excuse fact this nation’s treatment of American Indians was arrogant but when you have the view of ‘you did what I wanted to do’ then you’re no better than what you say to be against.

]]>By: AbnerBhattachahttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5179392
Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:22:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-51793921 thing people sometimes say when discussions arise about how Indians stole territory from other Indians before Whites stole the territory from the Indians is that the Indians fought a fair fight, such as the Sioux used = weapons as the Crow and Arikara tribes had and the Sioux won their territories from those tribes by even combat, while the Whites didn’t fight fairly. Have found that on some things A.I.M. is haughty & dishonest when they lecture about Whites being cowards, fair fights and uneven combat.

People esp. Native Americans or American Indians talk about how Sioux, Comanches and other tribes who got their territories from neighboring tribes used fair fight (both sides fighting with bows and arrows, tomahawks, etc.) to steal the territory. American Indians have talked about Whites and uneven combat.

While having better weapons & military strategies helps you win the wars, there is terror which goes into a war. In Indian wars, you have the terror of some many arrows flying @ you, getting killed with a tomahawk, getting killed with battle axes and knives. Native Americans or Americans also had the territorial advantage in knowing the territory. Yes, the Whites were greedy in that they stole American Indian territory (some cases American Indian conquests) but they were not cowards.

Lieut. Col. George Armstrong Custer was going to do what was mainly for the expansion interests such as get land which had metals (gold, iron, etc.) and Lieut. Col. George Armstrong Custer was a fool @ Little Big Horn, but he never asked his soldiers to do anything he wouldn’t do himself and he would went to the front line of the Little Big Horn Battle. 1 could say that Custer’s Last Stand was an attempt to steal Sioux conquests, in that the territory the Sioux lived on was taken from other Indian tribes-the Crow and Arikara.

Have talked with American Indians who admit that the talk of stolen land means you did what I wanted to do. Long Knives or White Eyes did what you wanted to do as to say otherwise is talking with forked tongue.

A.I.M. is not honest, because think they know that it would be dumb to go to a war with ‘fair fight’ thinking. Think they know that wars are about winning using best weapons & strategies & not about being fair, as war is not UFC or an NFL game. During WW2, we bombed German, Italian & Japanese cities believing they would surrender. The 3 year old German, Italian & Japanese kids are innocent even if parents were guilty. The side with the better weapons & military strategies wins the war. If Germany, Italy & Japan had the atom bombs, they would have used them against us & we’d possibly still be dealing with them today.

If we go by ‘fair fight’, then allies during WW2 should not have used atom bombs but invaded Japan as using the atom bombs would be ‘uneven combat’ while invading Japan which includes a ground war where more lives both Allied & Japanese get killed is a ‘fair fight’. Idea of wars is to win & the US did what they believed would be the fast way to end war.

My view always will be that the atom bombs should have been dropped in other places in Japan with fewer civilians death but admit that there is no guarantee there would be surrender. There are only wrong and bad choices which President Harry S. Truman had. There was no guarantee that Japan would surrender after Hiroshima and Nagasaki as they had not surrendered after Tokyo and other cities were bombed with so many civilian deaths. If it goes to an invasion, many more civilians get killed and Japanese would have used women and children soldiers. Japanese boys would fly planes in kamikaze missions. In Okinawa, families committed suicide such as Japanese women with their children would jump off of cliffs to their deaths.

]]>By: Georgehttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176866
Sun, 01 May 2016 00:19:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176866I find your statement “…if American Indians had ships and other advanced technology, they would have conquered other continents and not just neighboring tribes” somewhat strange. I guess if they had invented hammers and nails and knew how to cut lumber, they could have built permanent housing and cities, and invented, roads, newspapers, currency, and trains; but, they were just ignorant isolationists living in the pre-dark ages while the rest of the civilized world advanced.

The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians… advanced their civilizations, why not the American Indians? And, don’t forget that the Eastern Woodlands Indians were Native American tribes that settled in the region extending from the Atlantic Ocean in the east to the Mississippi River in the west to Canada in the north and the Gulf of Mexico in the south. So, they were living next to large bodies of waters for thousands of years, but did not invent ships to sail the Atlantic Ocean or in the Gulf, like the other non-isolationist civilizations did thoughout the rest of the world, e.g., the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians.

By around 3000 BC, Ancient Egyptians were building ships that sailed the Red Sea. In China, by the time of the Zhou Dynasty (1046 BC – 256 BC) ship technologies such as stern mounted rudders were developed, and by the Han Dynasty, a well-kept naval fleet was an integral part of the military. Ship technology advanced to the point where by the medieval period, water tight compartments were developed. Were American Indians sleeping at this time? Why didn’t they advance? Again, the primary factors as to why American Indians did not advance beyond the dark ages are isolationism and primitive cultural practices and mysticism. But, the main culprit was isolationism.

You missed the point and the question you should have pondered is why did the American Indians not have ships or any technology? The main facts you overlooked are that the American Indians were ignorant nomads not much more advanced than the original cavemen or the aboriginal Australians. Indians did not learn how to work metals, and used stones to make weapons and tools, e.g., axes. They did not know how to make metal or even lumber.

Don’t you think that is strange? Let’s put that in a historical perspective. The Sumerians around 4,500 B.C. showed the earliest signs of metalworking. Even the early Romans had Gods dedicated to the forge. So what were the American Indians doing that they were not able to advance as a race? They were being primitive isolations and roaming the land looking for food; much like the early cavemen.

Also, I am assuming use misused the word “continents.” No other group of people in the history of the World has ever conquered entire continents (e.g., Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, or South America); did you mean to say countries or large territories? But, the American Indians were not able to form huge civilizations cable of conquering countries or large territories; it took move civilized races and civilizations to do that.

And, one of my points was that the reasons they did not have advanced technologies, e.g., ocean faring ships, guns, manufacturing, hammers, nails, saws, utensils… is because they were isolationists and nomads.

You are right about the rates of alcoholism and drug addiction being higher for American Indians; but, you have failed to identify the causes. All races have alcoholics and drug addicts. There are a myriad of reasons. One primary reason is that Alcoholism is a family disease. “Children of an alcoholic parent face three to four times the risk of becoming alcoholics themselves — if they drink — as do children without alcoholic parents. If both parents are alcoholics — not an unusual situation — their children’s risk of becoming alcoholics if they drink rises as high as 80 percent.” http://www.times-standard.com/article/ZZ/20110406/NEWS/110408067

I can speak from experience about alcoholism and I am a white man of primarily German ancestry. For over 30 years until I went stone cold sober about 10 years ago, I was a functioning alcoholic. My Dad, who was a decorated WWII hero and alcoholic, died at the young age of 47, when I was 15. Both my younger sisters have had to fight alcoholism too; unfortunately, they still drink. My Mom is basically a tea toddler and rarely has a drink, i.e., years between one drink. We were also relatively poor, but not starving, and lived in cheap apartments. My Dad’s father was an alcoholic as was his Dad and so on as far back as anyone can remember, as was most of the family.

So, my heart goes out to all children who live with alcoholics because most likely they will suffer from the effects of generational alcoholism – up to 80% will be affected.

According to the 2010 Census there were 617 American Indian and Alaska Native legal and statistical areas, e.g., reservations where some live (22% of total Indian and Alaska Native population) and 566 federally recognized Indian Tribes. I will reference these statistical areas as ‘Indian reservations’ going forward. As on 2011 American Community Survey, the Nation’s population of American Indians and Alaska Natives was 5.1 million. The 2011 population of the USA was 311.7 million. Therefore the 5.1 million Indians and Alaska Natives represent 1.64% of the total 311.7 million people in the USA. 22% or 1.1 million of the 5.1 million American Indians and Alaska Natives actually live on Indian and Alaska Native legal and statistical areas, e.g., reservations.

The fact, that only 22% of the total population of Indians and Alaska Natives live on Indian reservations, is a good thing. Isolationism is not good for any race. And living on Indian reservations is isolationism and can only harm the progress of the American Indian and Alaska Native populations. But, the leaders of these tribes will never agree with that, which is unfortunate.

Their arrogance is very notable and pathetic.

]]>By: abnerbhattahttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176839
Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:03:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176839George, I agree with most of what you say, but think you misunderstood on some things. Yes, you’re right that American Indian groups have been arrogant & yes, you are right that the Noble Savage theory we keep hearing is rubbish. You’re right in all that. When I said hypothetically, I meant if American Indians had ships & other advanced technology, they would have conquered other continents & not just their neighboring tribes. You’re right that they conquered their neighbors.

I agree with most of what you say other than the view of getting rid of Indian reservations. When I talked about treating American Indians with = rights, I mean when it comes to jobs, housing & = justice for crimes. American Indians must live with same rules as Whites, Blacks, Asians & other ethnic groups with no special privileges. I didn’t know you’re 5% Cherokee so thanks for mentioning that. You also are right that American Indians usually didn’t invent things.

As to what do we owe American Indians? My view again is that they get treated same as all other ethnic groups with no special rights. American Indians have higher rates of drunkardism & drug junkyism. American Indian groups must focus more on drug junkyism, suicides & drunkardism which impact American Indians today & not complain about what happened in 1800s, because what matters is that all ethnic groups get treated fairly. Finally I am neither White nor American Indian.

]]>By: Georgehttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176814
Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:34:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176814Your use of the word “hypothetically” is wrong; it actually happened, so that is reality. American Indians killed other male American Indians to get their campgrounds, women and other property, e.g., horses.

The history of civilization is about different races fighting, killing and capturing the lands and property of other races. You need to study the “History of the Roman Empire” (27 BC to 476AD).

But there is an overlooked difference, at least, the Romans invented many things: Arches, Grid based Cities, Sewers and Sanitation, Roads and Highways, Aqueducts, Roman Numerals, Surgery tools and techniques, Julian calendar, Newspaper, and Concrete.

The ancient Aztecs and Mayans are given credit for a few inventions, e.g., popcorn, chewing gum, but these races did not exist in North America. And, the Aztecs and Mayans did not have great inventions like the Romans.

American Indians of one tribe captured the camping grounds of other Indian tribes. Indians had no sense of land ownership; their land was wherever they camped, which is somewhat arrogant; but they were nomads. White men advanced their civilizations; Indians did not, even though they had the same amount of time to do so. They didn’t advance their races/tribes because they were isolationists.

Civilized races invented and used farming e.g., growing corn and wheat, and the breeding of animals (e.g., cows, sheep, and chickens for food, e.g., milk, eggs and meat. There were four basic ways for people in ancient societies to find food: hunting and fishing, gathering, farming, and raising domesticated animals. Most American Indians relied solely or mainly on hunting, fishing, and gathering.

Indians did not created great empires like the Romans or Greeks or any other civilizations in Europe and Asia. They did not build beautiful cities and markets and did not explore the oceans and seas.

Do you actually believe that when American Indians conquered the camping grounds of other Indians that those captured Indians were treated fairly? Surely, you jest!

The fact is that those male Indians that were captured by the conquering Indians were killed, especially the older conquered male and female Indians. The conquering Indians did not kill the young conquered female Indians, but raped them and made them their slaves. Is that the equality you are talking about?

America Indians who choose to live and comingle with other Americans versus living on Indian reservations and becoming isolationists are rarely treated differently than any other Americans.

America is the melting pot of difference races. It is only the American Indians that are arrogant and flaunt the fact that they are American Indians that are treated poorly. They want special treatment and don’t blend with other Americans.

I worked with many of these arrogant Indian types at an Indian Casino in Milwaukee, Wisconsin owned by the “Keepers of the Fire” tribe, which is a joke. How arrogant to called themselves “The Keepers of the Fire”. How superstitious. What fire? The only fire that exists is that in their deranged heads.

The Casino is a joke as concerns Indians. People gamble there only because it is the only place available in Wisconsin. There was no competition to build casinos in Wisconsin, which was unlike anywhere else in America because of Governor Walker’s stupidity. If Governor Walker would have opened up the building of Casinos to all Americans versus just Indian tribes, many better casinos would exist in Wisconsin in much better locations.

The Indians that work at this Casino are paid wages and also get a share of the Casino profits, while non-Indians are only paid wages. These Indian workers do not work harder than the non-Indian workers. And, the fact that they lost the war against the white man centuries before should not entitled them to anything else. You lost, get over it and join the human race.

And, the Indians could not have built the Casino without the millions of dollars in subsidies from the state and Federal governments. Wisconsin’s Governor Walker sold out all the other races to the Indian race by only allowing Indian Tribes to build casinos in Wisconsin. Whatever happened to free enterprise? And, where this casino is located in Milwaukee is not an Indian reservation. How is that fair?

And, many of these supposed Indians working at the casino had American and German surnames, which mean they had White Fathers; but, somehow, they were allowed to get the benefits of being 100% Indian. So, how many of their next generations will be true Indians? If one of their offspring has children by a non-Indian, what race are the offspring? I am 5% Cherokee according to my Dad, and 95% German, so do I qualify as an Indian? How silly!

It is like calling President Obama a black man when he is a Mulatto because his mother was 100% white.

There should be no Indian reservations in America. All American Indian reservations should be dissolved and those people dispersed throughout America.

]]>By: abnerbhattahttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176812
Sun, 24 Apr 2016 11:09:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176812While you’re right in that when American Indians talk of stolen land, they mean ‘you did what I wanted to do’ & while you’re right that American Indians often won their lands by wars against other American Indians before they lost their lands to Whites in wars (American Indians would hypothetically have conquered other places in world if they had capacity), treatment of American Indians was sometimes arrogant & haughty. Yes, you’re right that it gets boring to hear the same complaints rerun by American Indian groups, American Indians should be treated fairly like every1 else. I don’t care 1 way or another about American Indians who live on reservations not paying property taxes. All ethnic groups must be treated fairly, which also means that American Indians must treat Whites fairly. I support democracy and = rights for all ethnic groups. People are the same everywhere-Whites, Blacks, American Indians, etc.

Anyhow, if it is about seeing American Indians have same rights as all others, then I support that. American Indians must have = rights when it comes to jobs, housing & = punishment for crime based on facts & circumstances of each case. I am against discrimination. But it must not be an us against them thinking & let’s not have the Noble Savage theory because hypothetically, American Indians would have done the same thing if they had the capability or capacity to do it as people are the same everywhere. If American Indian tribes (esp. tribes like the Sioux, Comanches, Apaches, Aztecs, etc.) had better weapons & capabilities, they would have been conquering other places in the world & imposing their laws on others. What I’ve found with American Indians is that many times when they talk of ‘stolen land’ what they imply is ‘you did what I wanted to do.’

]]>By: Georgehttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176788
Thu, 21 Apr 2016 21:34:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176788All American Indians need to get over it and become Citizens of the USA.

It is funny that Indians had no problem killing other Indians from other tribes and stealing land from those other Indian tribes, but when the white settlers did the same thing, then it is not OK, total nonsense. The Indians were uneducated ignorant nothings. You eithter join the human race and advance, or you don’t deserve anything.

The Federal Government owes nothing to the American Indians. I am tired of my tax dollars going to support these morons.

]]>By: abnerbhattahttp://www.historynet.com/what-do-we-owe-the-indians.htm#comment-5176390
Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:56:00 +0000http://historynet.wpengine.com/?p=13680889#comment-5176390My ancestry is Indian so don’t accuse me of White Privilege. I have read comments by Whites raising the fact that they treat American Indians fairly as they do like other ethnic groups & that it’s wrong to condemn them for something they did not do. I agree with them in that it’s wrong to condemn them for what they did not do. All ethnic groups must be treated fairly. If a White person treats a Black, American Indian, etc. fairly, then it’s wrong to condemn them. But there are American Indians who condemn them no matter how fair the White person is. This condemning is wrong.

I support democracy and = rights for all ethnic groups.People are the same everywhere-Whites, Blacks, American Indians, etc.Anyhow, if it is about seeing American Indians or Native Americans have same rights as all other Americans, then I support that. American Indians or Native Americans must have = rights when it comes to jobs, housing & = punishment for crime based on facts & circumstances of each case. I am against discrimination. But it must not be an us against them thinking & let’s not have the Noble Savage theory because hypothetically, American Indians would have done the same thing if they had the capability or capacity to do it as people are the same everywhere. If American Indian tribes (esp. tribes like the Sioux, Comanches, Apaches, Aztecs, etc.) had better weapons & capabilities, they would have been conquering other places in the world & imposing their laws on others. What I’ve found with American Indians is that many times when they talk of ‘stolen land’ what they imply is ‘you did what I wanted to do.’