It's hard for me to believe that out of those 300 songs, all but one were arranged in PT. If that were true, it would be hard to see why Digi would be in financial trouble. Looks to me like PT is the standard among commercial studios, but commercial studios are fewer and fewer in number and are handling less and less of the total music output.

I was talking about studios I saw Logic in - one, on a producer's laptop. Of those 300 tracks I worked on, I believe 3 were arranged in Logic. On one other record, the first 5 tracks were started in DP, finished in PT. Everything else was done in PT. Just my experience. . . I don't own a commercial studio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synthoid

I know a lot of producers in Beijing, and among them, only a small minority use PT for arrangement and sequencing. A huge amount of the music that is "released" over here never passes through a commercial studio per se, it goes straight from the DAW in which it is arranged to its final destination without ever having been mixed / mastered in a proper commercial facility.

Digi is going to hit rock bottom... whether or not they bounce back is yet to be determined.

I've followed this company for years and they work in patterns. Digidesign doesn't take action until it's do or die. Now the Apple has added 64 bit functionality into Logic, Pro Tools will have to play catch up once again. But professionals don't like being on the team that's always 2 pages behind...

Digidesign has also alienated a lot of people including their die hard user base so it's no longer about the product, the focus has switched to the company. LE users have demanded ADC years and Digi has ignored them- a slap in the face to their primary market base. Many LE users want to know: Is the grass greener on the other side?

Digidesign has also been under fire of criticism that Pro Tools HD hardware is too expensive. With current technological advances in multicore processing one must wonder why HD hardware is even needed to run the software? Why has Digi not adjusted HD prices accordingly?

In come Apple's Logic bearing free plugins, loops and all kinds of fruit- forcing Digidesign to once again respond. Digi is used to being the only player on the field and being able to charge high premiums, drive Porsches, smoke weed all day- so they're not exactly happy about giving anything away for free- Structure FREE is a classic example of a poorly put together plugin to answer to free loops that come with Logic, but Digi wouldn't have given you Structure for FREE otherwise, so you should really thank Apple. In fact, if HD prices go down soon, thank Apple because Digi wouldn't have done it on their own. Those of us who paid full price for the Bombfactory suite 7 years ago do not easily forget...

--

Apple could destroy Pro Tools at the drop of the hat in a price war. Hypothetically, Apple could give away Logic for free and people would run to the store to buy Macs. If Digi gave away Pro Tools for Free, people would still run to the store and buy Macs because NOBODY is going to pay $15k for THIS. With Pro Tools, you have this unnecessary hardware added to the picture.

Digidesign needs to put down the bong and get on the offensive side because their defense isn't going to hold much longer. Judging by this thread, people are not happy with them. With exception to a few rich HD producers, no one is jumping to their defense.

I think you should first read the logic documents. Many things won't work with the 64bit version.
Now you always find a way to bash digi/avid. Why on earth you did not started a logic bashing thread when it wasn't updated literally for years?
It seems to me almost every practicing pt hater has only one gripe, that is adc. (although till to the latest versions logic had serious problems with it too.)

Of course we, pt users would like to see many improvements, but imho pt is not 2 pages behind the market. While I had many unstable hours with logic, every pt rig here were doing the job without a hiccup. Is the grass greener? No, apple promised, offered many tasty things with logic, but they did not kept their promises. As I stated earlier, I have found that many nitty-gritty logic feature is half baked at best.

Now this is a thread about speculations on what would avid do. I think we have enough bashing/pissing threads already.

Now this is a thread about speculations on what would avid do. I think we have enough bashing/pissing threads already.

Aww but it's so easy to bash at the moment , as a logic user it's really fun to watch the demise of PT, all that over priced HW .
Indeed what will avid do next ???
my 2 cents ..... go NATIVE or die a slow and painfull death

Aww but it's so easy to bash at the moment , as a logic user it's really fun to watch the demise of PT, all that over priced HW .
Indeed what will avid do next ???
my 2 cents ..... go NATIVE or die a slow and painfull death

I think the opposite. They will suprise us many times....
(at least I hope so!heh)

Digi is going to hit rock bottom... whether or not they bounce back is yet to be determined.

I've followed this company for years and they work in patterns. Digidesign doesn't take action until it's do or die. Now the Apple has added 64 bit functionality into Logic, Pro Tools will have to play catch up once again. But professionals don't like being on the team that's always 2 pages behind...

Digidesign has also alienated a lot of people including their die hard user base so it's no longer about the product, the focus has switched to the company. LE users have demanded ADC years and Digi has ignored them- a slap in the face to their primary market base. Many LE users want to know: Is the grass greener on the other side?

Digidesign has also been under fire of criticism that Pro Tools HD hardware is too expensive. With current technological advances in multicore processing one must wonder why HD hardware is even needed to run the software? Why has Digi not adjusted HD prices accordingly?

In come Apple's Logic bearing free plugins, loops and all kinds of fruit- forcing Digidesign to once again respond. Digi is used to being the only player on the field and being able to charge high premiums, drive Porsches, smoke weed all day- so they're not exactly happy about giving anything away for free- Structure FREE is a classic example of a poorly put together plugin to answer to free loops that come with Logic, but Digi wouldn't have given you Structure for FREE otherwise, so you should really thank Apple. In fact, if HD prices go down soon, thank Apple because Digi wouldn't have done it on their own. Those of us who paid full price for the Bombfactory suite 7 years ago do not easily forget...

--

Apple could destroy Pro Tools at the drop of the hat in a price war. Hypothetically, Apple could give away Logic for free and people would run to the store to buy Macs. If Digi gave away Pro Tools for Free, people would still run to the store and buy Macs because NOBODY is going to pay $15k for THIS. With Pro Tools, you have this unnecessary hardware added to the picture.

Digidesign needs to put down the bong and get on the offensive side because their defense isn't going to hold much longer. Judging by this thread, people are not happy with them. With exception to a few rich HD producers, no one is jumping to their defense.

Every studio I go to has HD, you followed the company for years? I really don't get that statement. Patterns? Tell us more please heh

And the views on this forum represent this forum and this forum only. Don't go assuming this forum is the source of all truth, it isn't. I would go as far as to suggest the opposite.

I don't see them as having much choice but to do what everyone else is doing: make the existing TDM card a DSP-accelerated i/o card much like the SSL MX4, and have the audio engine run native.

But it needs to work for everyone all of the time. TDM does. All of the others do not. BIG difference. We are becoming like the people who like MP3s. We don't care how we get what we want. We want it on our terms. That will not function well for everyone all of the time.

There may still be good and valid reasons for using TDM, but everyone who has been a long time TDM user (like myself) and spent some time over the years on DUC knows that people are reporting/discussing problems with TDM systems on a daily basis.

being 64bit and able to address more than 4GB of Ram still does not make Logic a great program to mix with. Fantastic for people using instruments if its stable, but no great leap for the people who record & mix and want a simple / clean / stable program.
Logic is still for composers, nothing has changed with this update.

I still have seen or tried no new release of a DAW program that beats PTHD yet.
Native with ADC has not proven itself in any other program to be worthy of switching.
But you can be assured that somebody will do it, and it just may be Digi.

Here is the thing though. You can want some other cheaper product to beat out the world-wide standard because you cannot afford the world wide standard. But, it doesn't mean that the cheaper product will ever be the next standard, or even be as good. I want my mini-van to do all the things that a Porche will do, but it will not. It will not look as good. It will never have the same appeal, the same quality, the same bling. But it is what I can afford.

I happen to work with a former Digi engineer. He gives me insights into the culture and dynamics there at Digi under Dave. Dave would not let his pet developments go. He was actually holding things back from developing faster than they did. There was a ton of turnover under him. So...I think some of you are expecting it to be better than PT was. If what I am told is true, you may not get your wish.

For tracking and arranging - so the basic stuff, I gotta say that Logic is more then enough. Switched from Sonar and Cubase and I'm happy I did that (tons of crashes and problems with those two). With additional DSP power (UAD, Powercore, Duende), you can get really good results. For editing, it's not up there, but you know what? I learned ways around that problem with time. So - as far as I'm concerned, that can be done too.
Mixing? Well... I can always have a separate setup for that if I need to have it. It doesn't need to be a HD3 setup, for that matter. Or, I can just prepare it on a PT setup for mixing "outside". That can be done as well. But for first part of the process - recording, there is no reason to have it.

Gotta be honest with you, I'm more of a "standard" man, being engineer and all, you learn that there are reasons why standards exist. But in this case, standard isn't necessary the same as "the best". And it should be, considering the price of the whole setup :-) That's the main objective people have - if you give your hard-earned cash (in these amounts we're talking about), it better be the best - best AD and DA conversion, best mic preamps, best - freakin' absolutely everything. And it just isn't.

For tracking and arranging - so the basic stuff, I gotta say that Logic is more then enough. Switched from Sonar and Cubase and I'm happy I did that (tons of crashes and problems with those two). With additional DSP power (UAD, Powercore, Duende), you can get really good results. For editing, it's not up there, but you know what? I learned ways around that problem with time. So - as far as I'm concerned, that can be done too.
Mixing? Well... I can always have a separate setup for that if I need to have it. It doesn't need to be a HD3 setup, for that matter. Or, I can just prepare it on a PT setup for mixing "outside". That can be done as well. But for first part of the process - recording, there is no reason to have it.

Gotta be honest with you, I'm more of a "standard" man, being engineer and all, you learn that there are reasons why standards exist. But in this case, standard isn't necessary the same as "the best". And it should be, considering the price of the whole setup :-) That's the main objective people have - if you give your hard-earned cash (in these amounts we're talking about), it better be the best - best AD and DA conversion, best mic preamps, best - freakin' absolutely everything. And it just isn't.

Here is the thing I have said it many times before now I will say it again!
You want low latency monitoring? You have to Have DSP native can't support it!
You want plugins on that low latency monitoring You need more DSP!
If you want scaleable DSP and you want third party plugins on that low latency monitoring you want HD!
You can tell your clients they don't need it! But They like having it and at some point end up on HD!

As far as being locked in by Digi Now find me a single Low latency system that supports 3rd party plugins and I can use another manufactures I/O Device?

For LE users, I wouldn't trust a better Digidesign ADC. They're never going to make it as good as TDM on purpose. I chose Black Lion signature ($1200). Also look at Apogee, etc... and just use the digital in. Some users claim the BLA gives better results than HD. I can't say since the last I used TDM was in 2004.

i think by ADC he was referring to automatic delay compensation, not a/d converters.

You want low latency monitoring? You have to Have DSP native can't support it!

Native systems go lower than TDM based systems if you don't need plugin inserts in the monitoring chain.

Quote:

You want plugins on that low latency monitoring You need more DSP!

Plugins as such don't add more latency in the native world than in the TDM world. It's the fact that the signal travels through the CPU/buffers/converters/drivers etc. that adds latency, not the plugins themselves, they ususally do their job

The benefit of using TDM isn't "more DSP", it's a different architecture (which also have som unwanted side effects), and the benefit (in terms of lower latency) is marginal.

What you wrote used to bevery relevant/important before computers had enough processing power to handle many tracks/many plugins/low buffer settings.

Each step of DSP needs some CPU cycles, but in the native world, you'll either get a overload message or "latency-free" processing of the signal (unless special, complex algorithms are used). The processing adds no latency because it happens within the time span that we already know exists (eg. 0.72 ms when using a 32 sample buffer @ 44.1).

If you want as low latency as possible, you'll have to use a native system and avoid plugins. You can of course also process the signal in the interface, but in that case the systems isn't really 'native' anymore.

All this is of course more or less mumbojumbo, because the latency differences we talk about are in the same range as the difference that exists if you listen to some high notes on a piano - compared with the latency you'll get from playing the notes in the piano's mid-range. The higher notes are circa 1 millisecond "further away" than the mid range notes if you sit at the center of the keyboard.

I fail to understand how a person benefits by depriving someone else of a product they themselves don't even want.

Because it takes valuable resources away from the product that I do want/own.

Pro Tools isn't "Industry Standard" because of its LE user base ... that name was directly correspondent to its professional/TDM/HD user base. Now all it's taken is a few generations of pro-sumer products on the LE platform to put Avid's name under scrutiny, therefore taking away resources from the product that the effort should be focused towards in the first place.

No offense to anyone directly, but all the demands and complaining from the LE user base would be enough to drive me batty! The LE system was never designed to be a professional studio solution, and all I hear are people complaining that they got fu*ked because it isn't. The end result being what we have today ... a program designed with intended simpleness of purpose, bloated with features as a result of a pissed off user base. The current state of LE is a direct relation to demands and accusations. Avid could only facilitate or lose users.

In my opinion, the LE user base made this bed, now they have to sleep in it.

Because it takes valuable resources away from the product that I do want/own.

Pro Tools isn't "Industry Standard" because of its LE user base ... that name was directly correspondent to its professional/TDM/HD user base. Now all it's taken is a few generations of pro-sumer products on the LE platform to put Avid's name under scrutiny, therefore taking away resources from the product that the effort should be focused towards in the first place.

Has it though? Has it really taken away resources? Or are you just speculating?

No offense to anyone directly, but all the demands and complaining from the LE user base would be enough to drive me batty! The LE system was never designed to be a professional studio solution, and all I hear are people complaining that they got fu*ked because it isn't. *This is just personal opinion, btw. YMMV*

I think that it just looks like there are lots of people complaining about LE, in reality it's less than 1% of the people that use/have LE.
I'm sure if you looked at the real #'s of people that own/use PTLE vs complaints posted that "i'm not getting my $300-$1300 worth of value from this product" it would be low.
Most of the people complaining, are also posting complaints about the "Better DAWS" they bought as well.

I wonder if there is a Adobe Photoshop vs Photoshop LE complaint thread going on as well? (or Logic vs Logic LE?)

LE stands for Limited Edition ..... nothing hidden in that product naming, it has limited features vs their higher end product. A normal thing for the software business.

Lets hope they offer a newer version of LE with features that people are requesting.
I would like to see a few changes and would pay a reasonable upgrade price.
If not, maybe another company's product will suit your desires.