Sushi.First, I would like to compliment you on your well thought out presentation.For a person like myself who just made it out of high school . There is a lot to consume.(excuse That Expression)

I usually condense this topic into a vehicle running in a closed garage. I ask the readers if they would be perfectly willing to spend sometime in said garage.I to this date have had no takers. While most all will not admit it . They do then understand how humans alter the ecology of the Earth because of their so called technology.

Their idea of getting a rush working for somebody else in order for them to have a place to live and food to eat? It proves your writing that anyone can convince themselves about anything if they do not want to face the truth.

Every other species on this planet works for themselves, sells nothing buys nothing. Yet take humans out of the picture they have survived some longer then us,

Sure some prey on others, but we do the same thing.Yet, when even the other species consumes say a bird eats a worm.then a fox eats a bird and something eats the fox and so on.They all work together so all can survive, Where humans only think about what each one want for themselves, And how they can get it.

With the rest of the Earth's creature comes a chain reaction. With humans just individual explosions destroying everything around.Yep ,those forests destroyed you wrote about To wipe our behinds yet.and fresh water to flush that toilet paper somewhere else.

Funny ,when most other creatures excrete it is absorbed and reused by the Earth to nurture new seeds which will feed those same creatures.That closed loop someone on here commented about.Nature has had it forever. Humans do not seemed to have the comprehension to understand it or even want to try it.

For instance on 60' Minutes over a decade ago . They had a program about one factory that Reuses its water and its heat from the manufacturing process. and they saved money by doing it.

You would think today that would be a standard practice by a great majority of factories? Nope ! They all went across the oceans to places where they can pollute they hearts out?

The people complaining about China being more polluting the the USA?How many goods are we buying from this polluting China?How many goods did we stop making ourselves. Thus those citizens that love to work are losing more work choices everyday to places like India And China.

By the way Those commenter's on here about those poor people in India. We here in the USA bend over backwards to get India's best to come work here in America.

Imagine, if India's best were to stay home and deal with India's problems. Why those poor quality of life would rise much faster now wouldn't it?

Sushi.First, I would like to compliment you on your well thought out presentation.

I usually condense this topic into a vehicle running in a closed garage. I ask the readers if they would be perfectly willing to spend sometime in said garage.I to this date have had no takers. While most all will not admit it . They do then understand how humans alter the ecology of the Earth because of their so called technology.

genaman

Thanks for expressing your views, genaman. You are very correct when you give the example of a vehicle running in a closed garage.

Infinite growth and development on a tiny planet that is just 40,000 km in circumference?

It isn't just industrial society that is insane. It is almost everyone. It is the inability for most to control their reproductive urges from lack of intelligence, will power, or resources for pills, patches, diaphragms, or best, sterilization. Many are insane from the teachings of their religions, while others are insane from their own greed.The only ones not over-breeding for the conditions of the biosphere (one child per family, now), are the higher than 120 IQ without cultural or religious allowed influence(or that 1% who just can't have a child). A low percentage, and the very ones who should survive and can become sustainable are going down with the rest on this sinking ship of our benevolent biosphere. The "Titanic" metaphor is very apt, not just for the USA, but most other countries, the planet. The industrial/corporate/military/globalist complex buys the governments with contributions, so even the sane are led by the insane. As pollution from India affects most of the Maldives, and pollution from China pours on the American west. C02 from everywhere causing the tundra methane hydrates to melt faster and faster until they no longer need the CO2 contribution to keep the loop going toward Eocene Maximum conditions a thousand times faster.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

It isn't just industrial society that is insane. It is almost everyone. It is the inability for most to control their reproductive urges from lack of intelligence, will power, or resources for pills, patches, diaphragms, or best, sterilization. Many are insane from the teachings of their religions, while others are insane from their own greed.The only ones not over-breeding for the conditions of the biosphere (one child per family, now), are the higher than 120 IQ without cultural or religious allowed influence(or that 1% who just can't have a child). A low percentage, and the very ones who should survive and can become sustainable are going down with the rest on this sinking ship of our benevolent biosphere. The "Titanic" metaphor is very apt, not just for the USA, but most other countries, the planet. The industrial/corporate/military/globalist complex buys the governments with contributions, so even the sane are led by the insane. As pollution from India affects most of the Maldives, and pollution from China pours on the American west. C02 from everywhere causing the tundra methane hydrates to melt faster and faster until they no longer need the CO2 contribution to keep the loop going toward Eocene Maximum conditions a thousand times faster.

So? Won't this looming crash of which you speak take care of all this? Keep a low profile, wait it out, and you just might be one of the strong, smart ones that survives.

It isn't just industrial society that is insane. It is almost everyone. It is the inability for most to control their reproductive urges from lack of intelligence, will power, or resources for pills, patches, diaphragms, or best, sterilization. Many are insane from the teachings of their religions, while others are insane from their own greed.The only ones not over-breeding for the conditions of the biosphere (one child per family, now), are the higher than 120 IQ without cultural or religious allowed influence(or that 1% who just can't have a child). A low percentage, and the very ones who should survive and can become sustainable are going down with the rest on this sinking ship of our benevolent biosphere. The "Titanic" metaphor is very apt, not just for the USA, but most other countries, the planet. The industrial/corporate/military/globalist complex buys the governments with contributions, so even the sane are led by the insane. As pollution from India affects most of the Maldives, and pollution from China pours on the American west. C02 from everywhere causing the tundra methane hydrates to melt faster and faster until they no longer need the CO2 contribution to keep the loop going toward Eocene Maximum conditions a thousand times faster.

So? Won't this looming crash of which you speak take care of all this? Keep a low profile, wait it out, and you just might be one of the strong, smart ones that survives.

The worse than worst case scenarios playing out in front of us mean the biosphere itself will not be conductive to human life or the necessary support life systems in our niche. The malevolent type of biosphere will last longer than the longest food supplies in underground bunkers can last, even with nuclear reactor electric farming under ground. The pollution isn't just causing climate change to +18*F in 300 years until ocean temperature/pressure equilibrium reaches deep for methane hydrate stability. In thousands upon thousands of years the groundwater will build back up, perhaps polluted, too. Surface breakdown of organo-phosphates, mercury, lead, and other long term killers is in the many thousands of years, too. The same in the oceans and on the oceans with 6 or more gyres of plastic trash up to twice the size of Texas taking many thousands of years to break down. Some stuff in landfills won't break down for 50 thousand years or more. Natural soil buildup, instead of taking 700 to 2500 years per inch, depending on location, to form---will take much much longer. The worms, fungi, and other micro-organisms needed will be poisoned or cooked to death and extinction, too. What humans have done in pollution will not do anything to the geologic processes and may only delay ice ages for several cycles. Cosmic cycles will continue with meteorite hits, and a big one possible in 13 million years. The magnetic pole reversal we are in will complete, and more will happen in the future. A Coronal Mass Ejection that hits during weak periods of our magnetosphere, like we are rapidly approaching now, could take a large portion of the atmosphere with radiation killing more near surface and surface life. We will still have the thermal vent "worms" and other life in the oceans, until they evaporate in the distant future.The TV movie coming out, Earth Without Humans, assumes other life won't die off in the polluted conditions, so is nothing more than a brain fart.Recovery of the 1 to 5% of a crashed species is dependent on a livable biosphere, or ecological niche for them to occupy, and rises to the new sustainability level and stays in gentle sine waves of population size around it, as sustainability changes even more gradually. New life forms for a radically different biosphere can slowly evolve from surviving species, like, perhaps, cockroaches and bacteria. If any mammals do survive, they will probably have to develop armor plating, to survive cockroach attacks. Plus immunity to new bacteria and viral agents, to survive.With runaway global warming, human chances after the die-off from overpopulation are slim to none. There would be a better chance to survive a nuclear holocaust in very long term bunkers, like Bush probably has in northern Paraguay. There is a large aquifer under it....and that is another scenario. One of the Bush girls is still single, and among other super rich shareholder's daughters and sons, plus the 500 man protective army he has down there at our expense.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Two thousand years ago there was hardly any discussion on environment and the ecosystems were hundreds of times - thousands of times in better condition.

Today we are having billions of pages of discussion on environmental issues - and all ecosystens are getting destroyed, polluted and poisioned moment by moment.

On a small planet that is only 40,000 km in circumference which society is sustainable? - one that destroys ecosystems for food, clothing and shelter - or one that destroys ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter and thousands of consumer goods.

It is impossible for an Industrial Society to be sustainable on a small planet that is only 40,000 km in circumference.

Environment can be saved only if we stop making consumer goods.

If science and technology had not developed medicines, diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.

In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control.

All solutions of western civilization have led to bigger and greater problems.

God save the world from western civilization.God save the world from the solutions of western civilization.

Kind of sounds like, if God wanted to save the world, he should have stopped with the animals and left us humans out of the mix. At least it seems we're to blame for everything that goes wrong. Which wouldn't be bad, if we'd get credit for things that go right.

_________________I don't know what your problem is but I bet its hard to pronounce.

I don't know that discussions will save anything but they definately don't hurt. But then again I don't think that blaming other civilizations instead of taking responsability of the "choices" of one's own civilzation is going to save anything either.

They all work together so all can survive, Where humans only think about what each one want for themselves, And how they can get it.

People work together to survive.

I guess you've never seen a boss cow or goat bump the others in the herd so she can consume the choicest morsels in the pasture, or never seen how a bear will hide it's food so others cannot get at it They do not work with the others in fact they could care less.Sure there is some togetherness in packs or herds but to say that all animals "work together" is BS.

All solutions of western civilization have led to bigger and greater problems.

I agree. I think we should take a cue from the Chinese and allow only one child per couple for the next couple of generations. Of course, we'd also have to limit the number of couples of which one can be a member. That may be even tougher.

All solutions of western civilization have led to bigger and greater problems.

I agree. I think we should take a cue from the Chinese and allow only one child per couple for the next couple of generations. Of course, we'd also have to limit the number of couples of which one can be a member. That may be even tougher.

******************The greatest tragedy after the recent earthquake was the loss of so many children from the schools that were destroyed. As they were the only child in the family, a whole generation came to an end.

They all work together so all can survive, Where humans only think about what each one want for themselves, And how they can get it.

People work together to survive.

I guess you've never seen a boss cow or goat bump the others in the herd so she can consume the choicest morsels in the pasture, or never seen how a bear will hide it's food so others cannot get at it They do not work with the others in fact they could care less.Sure there is some togetherness in packs or herds but to say that all animals "work together" is BS.

Isn't China receiving aid and assistance and relief from others...humanitarian groups, other countries, etc?? It also seems to me there are quite a number of humans working together to help out China, as they do with other countries after disasters and they are not doing it to get anything.