The protests over the execution of Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus Da Silva and Marianus Riwu, which have seen the destruction of some state property by Christian mobs, are viewed by Fauzan Al-Anshari of the MMI as a form of terrorism.

Acts like that are only done by terrorists.
(Tindakan seperti itu hanya bisa dilakukan oleh teroris.)

He advised Muslims to be on guard against attacks by non-Muslims and threatened that if the police did not deal with the problem then the Muslim community would act.

Ah-ah… wrong! If you ever read history — and current events — you’ll find that the same “terrorism” was are being done by other people than Moslems.

Remember the Russian (what? atheists? or Christians?) with their pogrom against the Jews?

Remember the Jews (Jewish) with their Zionism? (they even tried to blow up important sites in London).

Remember the Israelis (mostly Jews) with their, again, Zionism to Palestinians? and what they’ve been doing to the neigbouring states is basically is aimed to constantly destabilize the region for their own benefits.

Remember what the Catholics did to several civilazations that used to exist? (hint: inquisition, hint again: Aztec, etc).

The list is endless….

Don’t get me wrong… : I’m not a follower of any of those despicable semitic belief systems (Judaism, Catholicism, and Islamism).

The international community is looking at the hypocrisy of this case. It has done nothing but tarnish the image of the Indonesian leaders – once again. Legal authorities in indo, and around the world (yes – even Muslim legal authorities) said that the sentences & executions were ILLEGAL. It’s not difficult to see what agenda is really running that country.

And I agree with RAM. Look at what’s happening in Sri Lanka with the Tamil Tigers. India with the Hindus. Islam does not have the monopoly on terrorism. 70% of the people I deal with daily are Muslims from Indo, and I’ve had nothing but good friendship from them – and they know I am a Christian.

I also disagree with RAM. Read a book called “God’s Politics” and you will see that true Christianity (following Christ) has no part in violence, war, oil, and spreading the faith by the sword. It is messed up humans that are messing up this religion.

And for RAM, yeah I admit that not 100% of terorrist are Moslem, but what happened recently, at least since the WTC 9sept, they’re all Moslems.
I don’t mean to attack the religion, but the people, because I have a lot of Moslem friends, and they’re alright, and they hate terrorism as well.

And I think yes again, this riot happened not because they hate Moslems, but because they’re dissapointed with the law in indo that’s still so discriminating andn they just don’t know how to express their anger.

Sorry to say, but I think those angry Christians (also including the late Tibo cs, ) and also the Moslems that are attacking each other in Poso and other places in Indo.. they’re not well educated, they’re just used by the greater power, the people who have money and authority, who are notabene far smarter, but rotten inside their heart. Yes they are the politicians, the government culprits.

And I believe we, who are discussing here, arguing (peacefully hopefully), we are not stupid people, and dont let hatred fill our hearts and minds.

I can understand the feeling of Tibo et al, their families, i can understand the feeling or those angry people, yet even though I’m a Catholic, I dont forget, that the Moslem people attacked, they’re also human, and I’m sure they’re just as sad, as scared as other human being placed in that position.

I cried when I read the execution stories, I cried when I heard even their last wishes weren’t fulfilled, but if you guys know about Mrs Astini execution case, (she’s a Moslem,fyi), I also cried when I heard about the case, I’m sad, how come human beings, who are as sinful as others, dare to claim theirselves eligible to punish and take other people’s lives.

I’m sad how the government that we chose through the general election (even though he’s not my choice)..that we trust to make our country better, can’t do their duty fairly.

I’m sad that discrimination about race and religion is still growing in my country, and sometimes they even said it’s not my country, they said I’m an immigrant, while every week in my school days, I sing my national anthem, I respect the national flag, I speak my national language, and whenever I’m studying or travelling, and people ask me my nationality, I’ll say proudly that I’m Indonesian.

I’m sad to read those rotten pancasila or regulations that say that indo has 5 admitted religions, but as if that’s only one religion’s admitted, accepted.

It’s said “kemanusiaan yg adil dan beradb”, ” keadilan sosial bagi seluruh rakyat Indonesia” but that’s all just bullsh*t, if the government cant help, then why don’t we, just with all that we can do, try to start a peaceful life, start from our daily life, spread love and not hatred.

It seems that some of us just never grow up.
When you put a label on someone or some group, please look inside yourself first.

Saying that all terorists are Moslems makes me both crying and laughing.

I would like you to recall the “Catholic’s Inquisition” that killed thousands of men and women. The “Roman Papal Crusade” to destroy civilization in Holy Land and burn all the knowledges (books), The US’s “Atomic Bomb” on Japan, The “Cold War between Brothers’ in Ireland. The “Invasion over Iraq” on allegation of some Mass Destructive Weapon that now proven untrue.

Please brothers…sisters…
This forum is an opportunity for us to enlight the world. If you put those words of garbage of yours here, you are just worse than terrorist, you are morons.

The Christians taking Tibo’s execution emotionally instead of rationally. And your holy father says that “not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature.”

The pope should learn about his own flock before he insult the Moslem, shouldn’t he?

Despite of they are being Christians, Tibo cs are criminals by law. And you treat them like saints. Thousands of Christians gathers for the trio’s funeral.

What would you feel if the Moslem do the same to Imam Samudra cs as what you did to Tibo?

I don’t hate Tibo as a person. I just hate the sin he did. As I hate what Imam samudra did.

Islam is a peaceful religion just as Christianity.
But the humans behind the religion are just humans. Humans tend to flaw. Don’t blame the religion, blame the human. But don’t blame all the human. Some of what you say, turn back at yourself.

And for you not to be more moron than you are now. I suggest you to read the history of both religions. If you have a little tiny winy bit of intelligence, I’m sure you will speak more wisely in this forum.

Tommy Joe you are still dreaming. All terror was done by Muslim militants. Even they killed the Muslims too, in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan more worse even than Indonesia. Can you see all of these? They used God’s and prophet’s name to kill innocent people? We are talking present situation not the past! Shame on you man!

true Christianity (following Christ) has no part in violence, war, oil, and spreading the faith by the sword.

Then why can’t you say the same thing about Muslims: true Muslims don’t do terrorism. See, it’s just a label. Only because some deranged people CLAIM to speak and act on behalf of Muslim community (even in the name of Allah if you will) you can’t just label them Muslims.

Easy to prove: I’m a Muslim but I’ve never given the right to Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia to speak or act on behalf of myself. Thus their claim is totally incorrect. In logics, this is what they called as “hasty generalization”.

“The Lord works vindication and justice for all who are oppressed.”
Psalm 103:6

The very words of Jesus Christ: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:37-40

I believe that only deranged people committ terrorism, and that Muslims should not be associated with terrorism. Some of the most God honoring, friendly, loving people I have ever met are close Muslim friends.

I also am ashamed to have the name Zionism associated with Christianity. God is no discriminator of persons, and for the message of Jesus to become associated with persecution of Palestinians is unacceptable. Jesus came to show the way to God – to walk in love of God and of each other, regardless of ethnic, financial, or land reasons. Jesus instructs us to be a servant to others.

Well”¦.we try to be patient, but somehow”¦we are just human! Things happen for a reason guys!

Christian people are not afraid of you guys, we only affraid of God!

Excuse me, can you clarify: what do you mean by “we” here? Are you talking on behalf of all Christian people? Err… if I’m not mistaken that’s the similar claim those deranged people in MMI made: talking on behalf of Muslim community.

Well”¦.we try to be patient, but somehow”¦we are just human! Things happen for a reason guys!

Christian people are not afraid of you guys, we only afraid of God!

We as Christian people, me and my family. Its hard not to hate Muslim people, somehow my family came from Ternate and my Muslim neighbour destroy my family house – they burn it and they kill most of my family and friends in Ternate. They create hate in our heart. Jaffar Umar Thalib and Kalla was behind it, we know it!!! They have big posters in Ternate and its written that they want to make a Muslim country, start from Ternate. So, is there’s terror againts Muslim it means that….Christian people wont be in silent. We are just human, flesh and blood…. we could make war too…capish!!! I know its wrong and God will hate war, but these Muslim people start it….so let the game start and its not the end yet guys…

I deeply apologize if my comment sounds offensive to you. My point is: we just have to stop labeling some senseless actions with Islam or Christianity or whatever. Senseless actions by deranged people is just it: senseless, stupid actions. I assume this is a good place to start. This us vs. them business is really getting us nowhere.

By the way I can understand your feeling. I’m a Madurese and I had several relatives lived in Sampit back then. Now most of them simply don’t live there or anywhere in this world anymore.

Hi guys, is any one of who can show that Christian ever started to attack Moslem, ashamed on you who cant see the fact. I’m not talking on behalf of Christian, but many terror are started by Moslem, the most silly is Moslem are common to burn the American flag, Australian, england, who was the first help when aceh attacted by tsunami, I didnt see any Moslem radicalism, not MUI, not NU, was the Major Element who help Aceh people.

Shame on you guys who attack other people’s property by shouting “Allahu Akbar”, it’s silly, since God himself never want your help to build his emperor in this world…how come you do such as things, it’s a silly on your Allah’s name.

I’m not provocating anyone here, but please see the fact when you put your comment. See what’s happening to Amrozy cs, they are happily called as a hero, directly go to heaven after taking others life, what kind of Doctrine is that? Surely in AlQuran say so, that you must attack/kill whosoever hate your Allah and the prophet…please see it in the Quran, that’s why no wonder to see they behave on terror all the time..even I can’t say that all Moslem are terrorist, but truly as I read above, all the terrorists are Moslem..this happen since the Quran openly and eligible to murder other who reject Allah and the propet..

bravo: “any one of who can show that Christian ever started to attack Moslem” i can name a few,

-the Poso mayhem was started by Christians who attacked and killed Muslims on their way to their ied prayers.
-the crusades were always started by Christians invading Muslim lands.
-the Iraqi war was started by Christian Americans attacking Muslim Iraqis.
-the afghan war was started by Christian Americans attacking Muslim afghans.
-in the two world wars, Christians attacked fellow Christians, Muslims, and people with other faiths worldwide.

I could give you more examples but I don’t have the time to do it. See, Christians attacked Muslims and other people with other faiths quite often. The only difference is the scale, that Christians seems to do those attacks on a larger scale than Muslims do. Violence is not exclusive to Islam, or any other faith for that matter.

Hassan… I say this with respect: please never associate America with Christianity. America is a secular nation – not a Christian nation. Indeed there is no “Christian” nation on earth. How would you like if the face of Islam was judged according to the Taliban? How would this comment sound: “If you want to know what Islamic utopia looks like – just look at the Taliban and their treatment of women”? Of course that would be a foolish thing to say. Or what if we said that Indonesia is the ideal Muslim country? A place where pornography is freely available on almost every corner in Jakarta – that would be stupid. I know that Islam must not be associated with these things.

I will make this unequivicolly clear: Christians did not attack Muslims in regards to Iraq. Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek and pray for our enemies. We will not let America decide who is the enemy. Indeed the only enemy to the real Christains (those who follow Christ regardless of the cost to their life) is the enemy – satan – who seeks to kill and destroy mankind, and rob them of their integrity and dignity. I can say Hassan, that I am a Christian and my heart bleeds for the Palestinians and Iraqis. What America has done to Iraq is WRONG. And what has happened to the Palestinians is WRONG. This is not a Christian / Muslim war. This is a blind war fuelled by globalisation and oil.

Will the true Christians please stand up? Follow Christ and do what he says – or sit down and shut up. All throughout the Bible we see Gods heart for the “least” of society. The defenceless. Those who cannot speak for themselves. Do not associate the name of my God with war.

Seeing the chit and chat between Hassan and daniel makes me laugh.
Both of them seem to be in the state of denial (“no we’re not beast, really”). In the meantime, their people keep on going in their age long tradition that is killing and making destructions. What is missing here is the Jew…. (hey richard doe, where art thou?).

You are missing the point muna. If Jesus says: “Whoever wants to be my disciple – they must deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow me” or “pray for those who persecute you”, or “Love your neighbour as yourself” – is that not what the meaning of being a Christian is? To walk in the footsteps of Christ?

And whoever does not do these things – how can they be a spokesperson for Christianity. If someone kills another man and then claims Christ endorsed that – are they following in the footsteps of Christ? NO! In that case they cannot take the name “Christian”.

I am not in denial. I know that people have committed atrocities and used the name of Christ for those – but they are liars and deceived. Christ never once condoned such a thing. Christs message was love and life. NOT death and violence.

the Poso mayhem was started by Christians who attacked and killed Muslims on their way to their ied prayers.
-the crusades were always started by Christians invading Muslim lands.
-the Iraqi war was started by Christian Americans attacking Muslim Iraqis.
-the Afghan war was started by Christian Americans attacking Muslim Afghans.
-in the two world wars, Christians attacked fellow Christians, Muslims, and people with other faiths worldwide.

Hi brother hasan, you must be very honest when you make a comment. Never found an evidence that killing in Poso started by Christians..how can you make such a judgement. I watched on tv few weeks ago the real story of it though I know that the editorial comment bring a lot of misperception at the Christian, but yet I heard that its started by the fighting of the youngster gang of the two religion, and the day after followed by the burning of the church.

Talking about the crusade,which crusade? Do you know the history, you may go to the library, and see those historical books..you may wonder.

Talking about American, I agree with Daniel, never Christian justified to attack other You may see Jesus’s life….so different from Muhammad..and those Khalifah, America doesnt represent Christian…never.

Brother hasan, can’t you remember how was in year 1998, many sporadic Moslem attacks on churches, Chinese and rapes, taking others property, who stand behind this all.

How can you defend at some of bombing suicide, is it true when you killed those who reject your religion, you will go to heaven after? So wonder, and manifulated.

Is it fair when you negate minority, can you see what’s happening in Indonesia now? What do you see in Irian Jaya,we do not even built a half of Islamic Centre there, but you guys built there freely and peacefully.

I just want to ask you bro hasan, what makes you believe in what you believe now…( guess what, you must be a Moslem ).

Don’t be mad, just explain to me…peace bro, peace.

Can’t you realize and see, can you show me one of Moslem nation without war? Worse they killed each other, brothers, show me brother which nation?

Can you see Saudi Arabian women has no right at all, but yesterday I read in a Moslem website that many Japanese convert to Moslem..and some of Japanese girl asking whether women has a right in Moslem..the ustad says yes, Moslem are strongly keep it..in fact how do you deal with the doctrine which allowed man can marry many women…any justice in there, or violence.

Sorry, just to set the fact straight: it’s true that all crusades (1065 – 1272) were started by zealous Christians against Muslim countries. The first assault against Jerusalem was even unprovoked. Saladdin’s attack much later was merely an attempt to recapture Jerusalem. This one in turn caused the third Crusade. By definition, Crusade is a war waged in the name of the Cross / Christianity.

For the other wars, well I agree with Daniel that just because the majority of its population is Christian you can’t just call that nation a Christian nation. Is Indonesia an Islamic state?

However, for the record George W. Bush once said “This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while” before he started the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now what’s that supposed to mean? I know that he’s not too dexterous with words, but talking about Freudian slip…

I am not an expert on the Crusades, but from what I did learn in highschool history is that these crusades were more concerned with land then the spread of a religion. and I will also stand by my original comments – no person who promotes war or the destruction of human life should associate himself as a follower of Christ.

Also, this is word play. I hear the word crusade all the time. Just yesterday I heard a guy in my office speak of a “crusade to drive him out of the company”. Crusade has come to symbolise any mass effort focused on a single outcome. In Western countries there are talks of “Muslim crusades” to Islamise the west. So when George Bush uses the word crusade – I wouldn’t take that to mean “Christian crusade”. He is speaking of a combined effort with a single outcome.

Perhaps we can lead this conversation to look at what Faith based organisations in the US are doing to lobby their government and uphold the sanctity of human life. The faith based organisations in the US have completely distanced themselves from these wars and outright called them “sinful”.

Think of it this way: allowing Bush to become your spokesperson for Christianity would be similiar to the west saying that Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, or ABDALLAH bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud are the spokespersons for Islam. That is nonsense. And the vast majority of Muslims who I know would not want these people ot be their spokesperson. They would not convey Islam fairly or accurately.

What I mean by “Indonesia as an Islamic state” is this: it is the most populous Muslim country in the world. The world looks to Indonesia as the model for how differing religins can co-exist. That is rubbish. Peaceful co-existance does not entail the forceful closure of Christian churches. Have you read the Aceh contract that was drawn up about 6 years ago that details how Muslims and Christians may coexist? Try and get hold of it and then you can judge if that is fair.

And again – don’t miss my point: Jesus message was never pro-war. The message of Christ taught to love your neighbour as yourself, and that cannot be separated from loving God with all of your heart.

If you want to see what American Christians are doing in defence of the oppressed and voiceless (and in a non-violent way) – have a look at this blog: http://www.godspolitics.com.

Boyke, I will also repeat – most of my colleagues (and friends) are Indonesian Muslims. I have been counted as a friend by them and they also call me brother. They do not cover up the horrendous things that have been done in the name of Islam (but they do disagree with them), as I do not cover up the things that have been done in the name of Christianity.

Anyway, I am not here to defend or accuse anything. I just want to set the record straight – and I have done this. I truly believe that if the church were completely removed from this earth today, the world would fall apart. Please research that for yourself. The compassion of Christ living in the hearts of committed and faithful believers has led to the church being the strongest benevolent force in the world. homeless shelters, food kitchens, anti-poverty movements, anti-slavery movements, equal-rights movements, hospitals, charities, lobbying governments for fair-trade, prison visitations, schools, healing for divorced, abused, and depressed humans, debt cancellations in local communities (paying off the debts of poor families) – these are just some of the things done on a global scale that cannot be overlooked. I can tell of more – i can tell of brothers working at orphanages who have died at the hands of extremists in India, those who have died at the hands of the communists in China (yes – even today this is still happening). In China all of the benevolent organisations are run by Christians with no government funding, yet the Chinese government is still focused to wipe Christians off the map. Iran, Saudi, Central Asia, China, North Korea, and Pakistan just to name a few.

Where is the peace for Christians? Why are the regimes in these countries so frightened of Christians that they seek passionately to wipe them out?

What is the famous Indonesian proverb? “UNITY IN DIVERSITY” or “PANCASILA”. When will we actually let go of our arrogance and predjudices and take hold of those beliefs?

I think we are very much in agreement. Excuse my english if it conveys different interpretation.

What I meant is this: let’s not cover up all the horrible things done in the name of Allah / Jesus / Rama etc in the past. The thing is, it’s too naive now to label Christian this or Muslim that by looking from act of violence done by those minorities. Mark my word: minorities. Governments–popular or not–are also minorities aren’t they? Unfortunately they have bestowed with this enormous power to control most of the population. Most of the enlighted followers, I’m sure, will opt for a more peaceful way of life.

In the past it might be rellevant to wage wars in the name of religions, since they didn’t have anything else. But that’s byzantine, way before the age of enlightment. We have to put those actions within the correct historical perspective. To face the current complex world we can’t just rely on old dogmas. I mean: use your head as well–starting from the leaders, hence my comment on Bush.

Again I agree with you that we cannot undermine the role of any religions in shaping the world as it is today. But we have to use it in different context now if we want to live peacefully side by side.

If it sounds too optimistic, let’s just hope you and I are not the minorities here.

That is where education is important. there are Muslims all over the world who are happy to live in peace and co-exist with their neighbours – no matter who they are. But there are also those who are susceptible to teachings that encourage spreading the faith by the sword.

That is why the religious community needs to stand up and hold the religious teachers accountable. I just watched a documentary about the Bali bombers now in prison for their role in Oct 2002. Ali Imron is the only one of the bombers to express remorse and in a rare moment of truth, has publicly rejected the form of Jihad that he so passionately preached to many children throughout Indonesia. He said that the victims were not the enemy. He has written letters and even published a book to refute his previous teachings. He has asked police to distribute the book and letters to his former students.

Of course this is too late for the victims and their families – and probaly for the Balinese economy – but nether-the-less, these teachings need to be torn down.

Fear of the unknown drives a wedge between us. Blind hatred fuels the flames. And I don’t pretend that the west has not contributed to the cause of this hatred. American foreign policy in Iraq and in other countries causes much anger throughout the world. But I assure you the Muslims are not the only people who feel such anger and outrage.

I am a Christian living in Australia (yet I spend alot of time in Indonesia, a country that I dearly love), and me, my family, my friends, and my church is absolutely disgraced and angered by the foreign policies of our government. We understand the pain that the world feels (particularly Muslims) when we see what is happening in Palestine. We suffer with you in that. But enacting revenge against innocent civilians of these countries is a sin that deserves to be punished. Violence only begets more violence. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

The fanatics who preach terror must be found and punished. Those who have been taught terror must be loved and educated.

I know that this topic is much deeper than what I write about, but we need to start at the grass roots level of truth telling. We need to be honest with ourselves about why we feel a particular way. An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.