It depends, like most decks you side out different cards in different matchups.

Jim Higginbottom

05-03-2010, 11:36 AM

Are you asking when you side out counterbalance or when you side out natural order?

Eddy Wally

05-03-2010, 11:39 AM

Are you asking when you side out counterbalance or when you side out natural order?

I should have specified that I meant the countertop engine, I reckon you take the natural order stuff out against guys with lots of counterspells.

PhanTom_lt

05-05-2010, 12:16 PM

Well, Counterbalance itself, sometimes with Top comes out versus decks which you can't hit reasonably with CB - Stax, Merfolk, Goblins, Dragon/Faerie/Demon/Elephant/Angel Stompy. It sometimes doesn't (or does) work against Enchantress and 43Lands.

Malakai

05-06-2010, 12:14 PM

Well, Counterbalance itself, sometimes with Top comes out versus decks which you can't hit reasonably with CB - Stax, Merfolk, Goblins, Dragon/Faerie/Demon/Elephant/Angel Stompy. It sometimes doesn't (or does) work against Enchantress and 43Lands.

It's essential against lands, as you basically just win if they can't get loam going.

Svenanole

05-06-2010, 02:56 PM

I've played this: 2 elspeth and 2 jace...
It's really good because it let's you win games but I prefer against some decks NOPRO (it let's you win against zoo and stuff so)
So I would command 1 each

I would much rather run rafiq then either of these

BantFTW

05-06-2010, 03:54 PM

First I thought that to, but rafiq is death one only one burn spell so it's bad against zoo, and in my meta there's ALOT of ZOO^^
So in my meta rafiq ain't better, idk in yours?

Genericcactus

05-07-2010, 11:38 AM

What do you all think is the most effective boarding strategy against Merfolk (in a basic NOBant list)? I've been bringing in 2 Path to Exile, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, and 2 Engineered Explosives, taking out 4 FoW, 2 Cbalance. The Natural Order package seems strange is this matchup. Merfolk can get hands with very little countermagic and Natural Order just wins the match. However, it can be dead draw if they have island walkers and you're behind. I don't think there is much worth fighting for to include FoW. What do some of you do?

Malakai

05-07-2010, 01:22 PM

Natural Order is pretty awful against Merfolk, as they generally just drop a lord and kill you the next turn, if you're ever able to resolve it at all.

Svenanole

05-07-2010, 04:23 PM

Propaganda/Ghostly Prison works wonders vs any aggro matchup so they cant swarm you. It creates huge dissynergy with wasteland, shuts down mutavault.

Also dueling grounds works well too

Deady

05-08-2010, 11:38 AM

Wow, there's just too much to say about all of this.

Someone needs to come up with a decent main list that is solid against most decks (whether it's aggro/aggro-control/or combo); a list that is capable to win from any deck. I'm tired of reading all the different countertop/bant aggro threads without any specific lists or results. I don't think we can call countertop a tier 1 deck right now, without knowing a specfic list that does great in general (like reanimate, zoo, goblins..they don't need all those tired discussions we have, because they have 1 list that has been tested thoroughly against the rest of the field, with solid results. Maybe 2/3 cards may differ from their lists (or run in different numbers), but with countertop it's really confusing and not clear at all, which is why I don't think we can call it a tier 1 deck (too many variation is a bad sign to me).

What are the best cards to run in countertop?. All the discussions of running NO/PRO or the planeswalkers..... Do we run Ponder? Do we run Qasali or Trygon Predator? Do we run Firespout with a Volcanic Island maindecked or not? Do we run 3 Tropical Islands or 4? Do we run 2 Tundra or 3? All these things are very important to know. It already starts with the mana base.

The manabase: I like all of the basics one time because of wasteland and against aggro
(like gobbs & merfolk) it's good if you can have 1 plains to PTE/STP.
The only problem I allways have and still have is the one forest, I don't really want to play it allways...
You can also go with firespouts, then the manabase goes as I think -1 tundra + volcanic and then one volcanic island side,
but I really prefer Dueling Grounds because it wins your games against aggro and
Normally I always play 19 lands (what's also better) but because I play 4 ponder and 2brainstorm 18 is enough^^

Okay, then the rest:
4 noble hierarch (mana)
4 tarmogoyf (beater)
4 rhox war monk (I play it 4x because we got alot of aggro in Belgium, you can also go for 3 RWM and 1 kitchen finks)
1 progenitus (I like the NOPRO package more because it lets you win games that you not always win)
2 trygon predator (Why not qasali: qasali let's you win races when have goyf vs goyf but you'll already have enough exalted, also ask yourself how many times that you sec qasali? Like one time a tournement. Also predator does damage and qasali doesn't attack alone normally^^
Against merfolk you just can win with a predator)
15

2 ponder (in the old days I've played 2 qasali in this spot but ponder gives you even more cardadventage so)
4 brainstorm
3 daze (4 ain't needed because it's a bad card lategame also)
3 natural order
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares (removal)
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
28

Yes, I play one card extra because I do think that 2 predator is beter than only one, but that's my choice.

Then the sideboard:
1 empyrial archangel (it let's you win games against ANT & gobbs, and many people think that we can't loose against ANT but it's quite a hard matchup. gobblins is one of the hardest matchups that we have so this one is also good for it, also against merfolks it does help)
1 wheel of sun and moon (so a good card against reanimator and dredge)
1 tormod's crypt
1 reliic of progenitus
2 PTE (extra removal for matchups where it's needed)
2 krosan grip
2 dueling grounds (best thing ever :P, against merfolk, dredge, gobblins, zoo, just decks with much creatures it just let's you win a harder game^^)
3 ethersworn canonist (against ANT, I would never play Gaddock Teeg because it counters you're own spells, force-NO)
2 spell pierce (extra counter against alot of decks, maybe I go 2 canonist and 3 spell pierce)

So the matchups (that are presented much here in Belgium): I'm not going to do it with % because idk them really..

@Zoo: normally a win if you gor progenitus and you can also win with a goyf and counter shit they have with cb-top
@gobblins: before sideboard bad matchup because they go so fast, after sideboard it's like 50/50. If you can make it to mid-lategame you'll probably can win with cb-top and NO but it stays hard.
@reanimator: if you can counter their key-cards you'll probably win or with cb-top. After sideboard is a wheel of sun enough to make them die :P
@dredge: hard game before sideboard after if you got some graveyard removal it's probably a win or a dueling grounds
@merfolk: this is a dying deck in Belgium but still some people play it. It's a hard matchup but I think still 50/50. the main problem is the LOA that needs to die or countered otherwise we are death^^
@bant: just who gets the better cards or plays better... It's really all much of the same lists
@ANT: not bad matchup but they can go fast and then you'll have it hard. And a cb-top on the field is not enough, they can play true it easy..
@Rock: not a bad matchup but they can go hard and remove alot and get a fatty on the board so

against other decks I didn't really tested I think because you don't really see them at tournements...
If you want to know something els let me know

Damnosus

05-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Some minor poinst I would like to make in regards to defending the use of Qasali Pridemage. First, I use 2 of him (plus 1 Predator) instead of Ponder, because I feel that we need more 2cc cards for counterbalance. 4x Goyf, 3x Daze, 4x Counterbalance just isn't enough in my opinion. Second, while people rarely sac QP, he is crucial against Jitte, a card which, while not broken against us, can be the determining factor of a game. Trygon predator can only rarely stop JItte. With the rise of UW Tempo, Jitte is definitely a card to consider. Just my two cents.

Deady

05-09-2010, 05:13 PM

BantFTW:

Thanks for your post, that was really helpful!

Funny you mentioned about the 1-off Savannah; I think it's a good move for the deck as well (instead of 4 tropical island...in the end it's all about those little details that make the difference).

Your list seems solid and I like your sideboard/explanations as well. For me it's pretty hard going from straight aggro to a countertop build; verry, very different strategy and playstyle.

I like the Dueling Grounds; good choice!!!

Qasali vs Predator seems like a never-ending discussion; I'll playtest them both to see which one is better. I think Ponder adds soimething to the consistency of the deck though.

The manabase: I like all of the basics one time because of wasteland and against aggro
(like gobbs & merfolk) it's good if you can have 1 plains to PTE/STP.
The only problem I allways have and still have is the one forest, I don't really want to play it allways...
You can also go with firespouts, then the manabase goes as I think -1 tundra + volcanic and then one volcanic island side,
but I really prefer Dueling Grounds because it wins your games against aggro and
Normally I always play 19 lands (what's also better) but because I play 4 ponder and 2brainstorm 18 is enough^^

Okay, then the rest:
4 noble hierarch (mana)
4 tarmogoyf (beater)
4 rhox war monk (I play it 4x because we got alot of aggro in Belgium, you can also go for 3 RWM and 1 kitchen finks)
1 progenitus (I like the NOPRO package more because it lets you win games that you not always win)
2 trygon predator (Why not qasali: qasali let's you win races when have goyf vs goyf but you'll already have enough exalted, also ask yourself how many times that you sec qasali? Like one time a tournement. Also predator does damage and qasali doesn't attack alone normally^^
Against merfolk you just can win with a predator)
15

2 ponder (in the old days I've played 2 qasali in this spot but ponder gives you even more cardadventage so)
4 brainstorm
3 daze (4 ain't needed because it's a bad card lategame also)
3 natural order
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares (removal)
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
28

Yes, I play one card extra because I do think that 2 predator is beter than only one, but that's my choice.

Then the sideboard:
1 empyrial archangel (it let's you win games against ANT & gobbs, and many people think that we can't loose against ANT but it's quite a hard matchup. gobblins is one of the hardest matchups that we have so this one is also good for it, also against merfolks it does help)
1 wheel of sun and moon (so a good card against reanimator and dredge)
1 tormod's crypt
1 reliic of progenitus
2 PTE (extra removal for matchups where it's needed)
2 krosan grip
2 dueling grounds (best thing ever :P, against merfolk, dredge, gobblins, zoo, just decks with much creatures it just let's you win a harder game^^)
3 ethersworn canonist (against ANT, I would never play Gaddock Teeg because it counters you're own spells, force-NO)
2 spell pierce (extra counter against alot of decks, maybe I go 2 canonist and 3 spell pierce)

So the matchups (that are presented much here in Belgium): I'm not going to do it with % because idk them really..

@Zoo: normally a win if you gor progenitus and you can also win with a goyf and counter shit they have with cb-top
@gobblins: before sideboard bad matchup because they go so fast, after sideboard it's like 50/50. If you can make it to mid-lategame you'll probably can win with cb-top and NO but it stays hard.
@reanimator: if you can counter their key-cards you'll probably win or with cb-top. After sideboard is a wheel of sun enough to make them die :P
@dredge: hard game before sideboard after if you got some graveyard removal it's probably a win or a dueling grounds
@merfolk: this is a dying deck in Belgium but still some people play it. It's a hard matchup but I think still 50/50. the main problem is the LOA that needs to die or countered otherwise we are death^^
@bant: just who gets the better cards or plays better... It's really all much of the same lists
@ANT: not bad matchup but they can go fast and then you'll have it hard. And a cb-top on the field is not enough, they can play true it easy..
@Rock: not a bad matchup but they can go hard and remove alot and get a fatty on the board so

against other decks I didn't really tested I think because you don't really see them at tournements...
If you want to know something els let me know

How does Empyrial Archangel help against ANT? Loss of life =/= damage :P I do like how she can be a time walk against aggro in the right conditions however.

Also, I think it'd be worth trying out a couple of Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Canonist is nice against ANT, but MM does a good job of catching other problems (Loam decks, Grindstone, helps against Reanimator, etc).

Finally, ugghhh @ that 61st card. I really don't think an extra Predator is worth it. Is the Savannah really better than another Tropical Island? Because you should always be aiming for two lands that produce blue early on to cast Counterbalance and the first land should still be an island for Daze.

Maveric78f

05-10-2010, 04:34 AM

Now that Progenitus/Iona are so popular and thus expectedwith a gazillion of answers, I'm really not a fan of the NO combo finish in Bant Countertop.

I find Jace much more impressive in the late game slot. Actually a resolved Jace with a creature in play generally means GG. Plus it can be pitched to FoW in early game, it does not require a creature against control or with the coutnertop lock and finally it does not require a blank Progenitus slot. Also Jace beats Iona hard.

To do so, I've cut the ponders in order to have a strong man plan and to reduce a bit the 1CC curve (16 is enough). The list I've tested lately has no random slots so far. The changes I consider right now fopr the MD are -1 Rhox and -1 Qasali for +2 Trygon which blocks fliers and has evasion to carry the exaltation. I like the fact I'd play 1 more 3CC spell and Also the deck plays a lot more control than regular Countertop, so that exaltation is not that much a strength. The SB has been put together without much thought but anyway I feel it's good up to now.

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Zoo decks will simply burn him.

Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.

Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.

We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.

Jace does have cool abilities but unless there is some important detail I am missing I do not see the advantages of using Jace over the NO/Pro combo.

BantFTW

05-10-2010, 11:09 AM

@Dragonfireheart: same oppinnion :P

- meddling mage or canonist is your own choice^^
- archangel helps against aint because they need 4-5 more combo^^

@maverick: It's true the 2 qasali and 1 predator, but I think that we don't really need it, you can play it but it's your choice...
In my meta there aren't many players who play jitte these days so I don't really realy need the qasali"s, ponder gives me more cardadventage and I want that much miore. It's also true that we don't have enough 2 slots but yeah^^

And what's also a nice thing is that you can play one dueling grounds mainboard, I did it some tournements and it helped when I had it so^^

Maveric78f

05-10-2010, 12:21 PM

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.
How can you resolve NO against Merfolk, if I'm not even able to STP their lord ? And NO is bad anyway in this MU with mana denial and daze/pierce. In this MU I prefer a blue card becasue it pitches to FoW, and that's about their only use.

Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.
1/ Bolt does NOT kill Jace. Learn this.
2/ Bolt is not popular in Goblin
3/ Goblin is not popular
4/ NO is godawful against Gob since it does not block pilly and replaces a blocker with another blocker. Once more, in this MU at least Jace can be pitched to FoW.

We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.
Jace is great against Reanimator. You can't deny it. You can state you win the coutnerwar with your 8 counterspells but you won't. Your analyse relies on playing counterbalance turn 2 with a lucky topdeck.
Jace is also better than NO against combo.[/QUOTE]

meddling mage or canonist is your own choice^^
They do not serve the same purpose at all... Meddling mage is for the combo MU obviously but also for naming krosan grip, natural order, ... depending on the MU. It's really a very strong card once you know how to set it.

- archangel helps against aint because they need 4-5 more combo^^
You'll have to explain this better, because Archangel does not prevent life loss. Just damage. Period.

@maverick: It's true the 2 qasali and 1 predator, but I think that we don't really need it, you can play it but it's your choice...
In my meta there aren't many players who play jitte these days so I don't really realy need the qasali"s,
Qasali's first use is definitely not jitte. More like vial, counterbalance, chalice, Bitterblossom, ... Well equipments too, but really it's not focussed on that at all.

ponder gives me more cardadventage and I want that much miore. It's also true that we don't have enough 2 slots but yeah^^
Ponder does not provide any card advantage.

And what's also a nice thing is that you can play one dueling grounds mainboard, I did it some tournements and it helped when I had it so^^
Are you serious? Dueling ground MB ?

BantFTW

05-10-2010, 02:01 PM

If you would go without NOPRO then, then go 2 jace+2 elspeth+1 rafiq, this is indeed also quite good :P...
Also, I asked a judge and you get 2 damage so you prevent with archangel...
I keep it with ponders :P.

Dueling ground is good when you play with Progenitus lol,I played it some times mainboard because I expected alot aggro.
And then you see decks against you like gobbs 2x, merfolk 2x and 3x zoo...
Like uwhyeah zoo is easy wihth progenitus.
gobblins you can win if you know how to play it and wich creatures you need to kill.
And merfolk is hard because they can go really fast and won that one time^^

But yeah it stays your own choice.
Also, could 2 mystic and 2 jitte be good maindeck in a cb-top shell?
Want to know what your awnsers are at this one lol :)

lmk plz

DragoFireheart

05-10-2010, 04:20 PM

I'm not denying that Jace is good against reanimator: I was simply arguing that he isn't needed.

Also, I never said bolt kills him, I simply said he can be burned out.

Also, what makes Jace better than NO/Pro against combo?

Philipp2293

05-10-2010, 04:37 PM

Also, what makes Jace better than NO/Pro against combo?

-) Pitches to Force.

-) If you tap out to play NO, you don't improve your situation in any way vs combo. Whereas with Jace, you at least get a free BS to find Force or anything else.

DragoFireheart

05-10-2010, 06:02 PM

-) Pitches to Force.

-) If you tap out to play NO, you don't improve your situation in any way vs combo. Whereas with Jace, you at least get a free BS to find Force or anything else.

Alright, I suppose that is a good point.

Maveric78f, I'm not sure I understand your point on the mana denial of Merfolk for NO/Pro: don't we run nobles just for that reason? Jace is pretty cool but god damn is he expensive.

chokin

05-10-2010, 07:30 PM

Why is Jace, the Mind Sculptor being considered in the NO/Pro slots? Jace doesn't win the game in a couple of turns and does not help our bad matchups.

Zoo decks will simply burn him.

Merfolk decks have Islandwalk and can easily hit him.

Goblin decks can also simply burn him out ala bolts as bolts are becoming more popular in goblin decks.

We don't need him versus reanimator since we have counters to match theirs and counter top to keep them in check. Jace also does very little to Storm decks.

Jace does have cool abilities but unless there is some important detail I am missing I do not see the advantages of using Jace over the NO/Pro combo.

NOPro doesn't really help the bad matchups sometimes either unless you get it really early. With neutral to good board position, it's epic. With poor board position, it's often just a dumb 10/10 that they're going to swing through. Against combo, it's nice to help end the game faster, but the fact of the matter is, you won't be swinging until turn 4 at the very earliest anyway. But when you do pull it off, it's totally awesome.

Jace is only exceptional against decks that run Iona. So I'm not really defending it all that much. It is pretty awesome card advantage/quality though. It just doesn't really change board position either. Also, I really hate seeing Jace as a 3 of. Maybe a 2 of, but I'd like to see some Elspeth up in this bitch if you're going to go the Planeswalker route.

BantFTW, Tendrils of Agony causes you to lose life. Damage is loss of life, loss of life is not damage though. So...MY EYES THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!

DragoFireheart

05-10-2010, 11:37 PM

NOPro doesn't really help the bad matchups sometimes either unless you get it really early. With neutral to good board position, it's epic. With poor board position, it's often just a dumb 10/10 that they're going to swing through. Against combo, it's nice to help end the game faster, but the fact of the matter is, you won't be swinging until turn 4 at the very earliest anyway. But when you do pull it off, it's totally awesome.

Jace is only exceptional against decks that run Iona. So I'm not really defending it all that much. It is pretty awesome card advantage/quality though. It just doesn't really change board position either. Also, I really hate seeing Jace as a 3 of. Maybe a 2 of, but I'd like to see some Elspeth up in this bitch if you're going to go the Planeswalker route.

The thing about NO/Pro is that it gives you the option to drop a game ending creature should the opponent take too long in killing you due to you disrupting them. None of the matchups in which NO/Pro is bad is Jace any better. If anything, we should be considering Elspeth, Knight-Errant over NO/Pro since many of the matchups that are hard for us get easier with her.

Khell

05-12-2010, 04:47 AM

Hi All,

Just got back into M:TG after years of absence ... Last played M:TG back during Mirage, Homelands, Alliance expansions. Am extremely fascinated in combining CounterTop with Painter's Grind. Was wondering what your opinions, suggestions and/or comments are on this deck?

I tried running it without the CounterTop component inserting Hydroblast / Blue Element Blast in place of the Counterbalance and with only 2 Sensei's Divining Top. It was working nicely at that time. I'm just worried that I do not have any 3 or 4 casting costs to cover it under Counterbalance although most spells under Legacy are 1 or 2 casting costs.

Appreciate your assistance.

Malakai

05-12-2010, 12:36 PM

As has been stated previously, this thread isn't very useful due to the large amount of variance in the archetypes. I've taken the liberty of splitting off controlling, non-Progenitus CounterTop builds. The primer for which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17534-[Deck]-CounterTop-Control

I propose that this thread be closed, and someone start up a similar thread in DtB for NO-Countertop.

DragoFireheart

05-12-2010, 12:41 PM

As has been stated previously, this thread isn't very useful due to the large amount of variance in the archetypes. I've taken the liberty of splitting off controlling, non-Progenitus CounterTop builds. The primer for which can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17534-[Deck]-CounterTop-Control

I propose that this thread be closed, and someone start up a similar thread in DtB for NO-Countertop.

I don't understand why we need to make a separate thread for this arch-type. Why not change it from [DTB] CounterTop to [ATW] Countertop? Since there are so many variations of decks using counter top it seems narrow to only talk about the NO/Pro variants.

The deck you are talking about (NO/Pro Countertop) is more along the lines of Bant Aggro:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Bant+Aggro&format=Legacy

Most of the decks discussed in this thread have the typical Goyf, Counter-Top, some combination of RMW/Noble/Pridemage and then NO/Pro or some planeswalkers thrown in as finishers.

Malakai

05-12-2010, 01:43 PM

Most of the decks discussed in this thread have the typical Goyf, Counter-Top, some combination of RMW/Noble/Pridemage and then NO/Pro or some planeswalkers thrown in as finishers.
Exactly my point. Those decks are Natural Order Top decks (whether the NO deckbuilders decide to keep NO seems to be in debate right now). I personally want nothing to do with playing Noble Hierarch, Rhox War Monk, or Natural Order. Midrange aggro with a control backup plan and a combo finish is not the same as playing a control deck.

The point is this thread has become unwieldly, and at this point no development is taking place. It needs to be broken up into smaller, more focused threads so that people are actually talking about the same thing.

Anusien

05-12-2010, 02:55 PM

Jace can bounce Iona naming white. This is often relevant.

fallenphoenix

05-12-2010, 03:41 PM

What is the general consent (if there is any) concerning Stoneforge Mystic featuring a Jitte and some other Piece of Equipment, probably SoFI or SoLS?
I could see it being strong vs a lot of decks (read: any non-combo decks), but it uses up a fair amount of slots and blue cards for FoW.

Also, as I lost a couple of games against a deck I sometimes hand out to people not owning a legacy deck, which contains a playset Mother of Runes:
I cannot think of many situations, where Hierarch is > Mother of Runes.
Mother virtually killls so many cards from the opponents deck, if left unanswered for a turn, it's not even funny, especially when you're confronted with her.

After losing only and almost singlehandedly to Mother of Runes, I am seriously considering adding her just to see if it works out.

aTn

05-12-2010, 04:49 PM

Jace can bounce Iona naming white. This is often relevant.

It can also give you wins vs. Lands.dec...

The Mother of Runes suggestion kind of makes me want to dance...

Seriously, you already use CB-Top to protect your threats and playing Mother seems like a good game plan for Death & Taxes, not CB-Top (IMO).

If you want to play equipments, I'd suggest looking up the Excalibur thread.

oldbsturgeon

05-12-2010, 06:39 PM

I played in an 8 man on saturday with 1 jace in the main. I only got it in one of the three rounds, and only 1 game, but it was awesome.
I was playing against new horizons and kept bouncing his terravore until I got a progenitus down.

fallenphoenix

05-13-2010, 06:27 AM

The Mother of Runes suggestion kind of makes me want to dance...

Can't blame a man for the urge to dance ;)

I wouldn't compare Mother to CB/Top, they only share few funtionalities. Yes, both can protect a threat from removal. But that's about it.

Mother can block anything non-trampling all day long, can give protection if you're in a race and must bypass chumpblockers, comes down on turn one to protect (and to serve) on turn two or trade with a lackey, while CB does none of these things and comes down online on t3.

Also, Mother can buy the time to find and assemble CB/Top.

I'm not completely sold on this idea, just like to point out that CB does not make Mother irrelevant.

aTn

05-13-2010, 12:02 PM

Can't blame a man for the urge to dance ;)

I wouldn't compare Mother to CB/Top, they only share few funtionalities. Yes, both can protect a threat from removal. But that's about it.

Mother can block anything non-trampling all day long, can give protection if you're in a race and must bypass chumpblockers, comes down on turn one to protect (and to serve) on turn two or trade with a lackey, while CB does none of these things and comes down online on t3.

Also, Mother can buy the time to find and assemble CB/Top.

I'm not completely sold on this idea, just like to point out that CB does not make Mother irrelevant.

I agree with your argument.

The thing is, it doesn't "pitch" to N.O. and doesn't accelerate you into it either (and Exalted often breaks creature stalemates).

fallenphoenix

05-13-2010, 02:49 PM

Okay, I did not think of NO-Prog, because I always have been playing without it.

With NO-Prog you actually have reasons to put as many green creatures as possible into your deck (+ acceleration makes more sense....), without it you can just play whatever the heck you like :)

I will be testing both Mother and Stoneforge tomorrow, perhaps just to find out that they don't make the cut.

Anusien

05-13-2010, 02:54 PM

I would not want to go in on an equipment plan for the same reason that I think Tarmogoyf might be the wrong direction. You can't count on blocking with your guys anymore, and paying 6 mana to get Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte seems really bad when every deck in the format has a way to invalidate that plan. I would much rather just cast a Knight of the Reliquary because it can protect itself.

DragoFireheart

05-14-2010, 09:08 AM

I would not want to go in on an equipment plan for the same reason that I think Tarmogoyf might be the wrong direction. You can't count on blocking with your guys anymore, and paying 6 mana to get Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte seems really bad when every deck in the format has a way to invalidate that plan. I would much rather just cast a Knight of the Reliquary because it can protect itself.

Has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary over Rhox War Monk for a three drop? The knight can get much bigger and only requires 2 colors compared to Rhox, though he doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't have lifelink. Is Rhox needed for Zoo matchups?

Draener

05-14-2010, 09:50 AM

I have tried out Knight in the Rhox slot, and it was quite often a problem that he wasn't blue. Far more often than I did not have the color requirements for casting Rhox, I would end up holding a force without a blue card. Another problem I encountered was Knight was not always big enough to survive bolt when I needed to drop him. I could wait for a fetch... but then nactyle would bite away another 3 life and that burn that would kill knight would just kill me instead.

dan who?

05-14-2010, 10:35 AM

I haven't tried Knight out, but I can honestly say that I love the lifelink RWM provides. The life gain from a landed Rhox has pulled me out of so many jams and with it's big butt it has a hard time getting killed. Also, being able to pitch it to force is also really good in my eyes. Sure Knight can get bigger but I feel like it might take a lot longer than just landing a 3/4 lifelinker.

aTn

05-16-2010, 09:25 PM

Has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary over Rhox War Monk for a three drop? The knight can get much bigger and only requires 2 colors compared to Rhox, though he doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't have lifelink. Is Rhox needed for Zoo matchups?

I posted a list in another CB-Top thread with only 4 Goyf and 4 KOTR for a creature base (see post #11).

So I tested Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic with a Jitte and a SoFI. I only made a few games vs. Zoo.

Turned out SFM was a little slow for my taste, though having a way to tutor for Jitte was nice. But with the abundancy of cheap spot removal and Quasali Pride Mages, I never got full value out of him.

Mother suffered from the same problems, being shot almost every time I cast her. But this actually bought a lot of time, because it would delay Zoo's one-drop until it was hardly relevant.

In the then upcoming tournament I went with UGB-CB-shell, because I like it best and UGB has never really let me down. I went 2-0-1, 2:0 wins vs Merfolk and Reanimator, draw vs 42.lands (can this actually be won preboard?).
The other rounds of the tourney were team-sealed, I don't think they should be discussed here ;)

sauce

05-18-2010, 11:20 AM

you can beat lands w/ CB, in fact, they cant win if you get a 2 drop on top.
that deck just sits there once it cannot cast life from loam.
granted, you just need more threats out than they got maze of iths (& tabernacle).

its a rough matchup, no doubt but i think the new cb decks are adjusting.
some are running enlightened tutors main to get bullets like back to basics, pithing needle, tormod's crypt... (aj sacher's list)
some are using trinket mages to do the same... (probasco's gp chicago shell)

i don't think baseruption type builds are going to cut it in today's metagame, which has moved on and adapted.

fallenphoenix

05-18-2010, 02:28 PM

Lands adapts, too - they have Intuituion to grab all kinds of good stuff and 4 Tolaria West for Explosives and Academy Ruins.
You'd have to set up pretty damn big with CB @2+3, multiple Force in hand for their attempt to cast explosives @2 for CC4, something to beat down, while they may not draw more Maze of than you have creatures.

Once they don't have access to maze or you Needle it postboard, I find it very winnable, but before that you don't have much of a clock and they have infinite Explosives for your board....

DragoFireheart

05-18-2010, 03:47 PM

Lands adapts, too - they have Intuituion to grab all kinds of good stuff and 4 Tolaria West for Explosives and Academy Ruins.
You'd have to set up pretty damn big with CB @2+3, multiple Force in hand for their attempt to cast explosives @2 for CC4, something to beat down, while they may not draw more Maze of than you have creatures.

Once they don't have access to maze or you Needle it postboard, I find it very winnable, but before that you don't have much of a clock and they have infinite Explosives for your board....

Couldn't we just sideboard in Wheel of Sun and Moon? It also helps with other graveyard based decks like Reanimator and Dredge.

fallenphoenix

05-18-2010, 04:19 PM

Needle and any kind of graveyard hate is usually fine for me.

Explosives and Maze are the most important cards to name.
You need to handle Maze, to be able to win in time, otherwise they can just go for the time-out.

If I have Needle + Beatstick I tend to name Maze.
If I have CB/Top + Needle I name Explosives.
(As a general rule, of course thinking on your own is recommended, because every situation is a little different)

Crypt and Relic are also neat, Ley-Line/Wheel should be fine, too, but I like to be able to remove the graveyard once I topdeck my grave-hate.

My problem however is not winning post-board, it's winning pre-board, which I find very difficult.

aTn

05-18-2010, 08:09 PM

In my experience, Jace TMS + having the right counters so that they don't shit their hand out in the early turns + CB@2 is a good plan that has worked enough times for me against Lands.dec to make me confident in that MU.

ShiftyKapree

05-19-2010, 08:45 AM

I was wondering what you guys play in your NO CBT decks? I am wondering how to keep the deck viable and diverse

oldbsturgeon

05-19-2010, 12:54 PM

I can only say what I play but mine looks something like this
4 tarmogoyf
4 noble hierarch
4 rhox war monk
1 wall of roots
1 progenitus
1 dryad arbor
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's diving top
3 natural order
3 daze
1 jace, the mind sculptor
4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
1 volcanic island
in the side i have 1 other volcanic and 3 firespout.
I like playing the jace but i could see it going to the side and only being brought in against control. By doing this I could up the 2cmc by a card giving me 13 or could up the 3 to 5 cards.
The wall of roots is cool because its a good defense if you draw it, green for natural order, and makes mana. Overall pretty cool, but not something I would really want more than 1 of.
I once had 3 in the deck, and it really was too many and not enough pressure with the deck.

BreathWeapon

05-20-2010, 05:12 AM

The Mother of Runes/Stonforge Mystic plan is solid, IMO, I've been running both in Supreme Blue /r with Fire Spout in the SB and it justs rolls Zoo, FWIW. Mother of Runes/Stoneforge Mystic are like BANTs Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage, they give you a mechanic that allows you to beat the Tarmogoyf and Rhox Warmonk stalemates while generating tempo (by casting Equipment at instant speed and preventing STP in response to equipping.)

It certainly doesn't make sense in a NO shell, but if you aren't playing NO and you are playing the Planeswalkers then it's a pretty solid plan because MoM is like one of the best 1 drops in the game right now for virtual card advantage and combat.

OurSerratedDust

05-21-2010, 11:37 PM

I'm using Ruben Gonzales Parrado's top 8 list from Madrid (NO Pro) and I'm kind of new to the deck. How do you board against decks like Merfolk? What about other tempo oriented decks? Do you side out the NO Pro package for firespout? Do you board out counterbalances?

Any insight is appreciated. Thanks a lot.

Jon Stewart

05-24-2010, 02:46 PM

Is counterbalance still worth it? I'm not convinced. I feel like those 6 slots are better off going to 4 NO + Progentius and some Path to Exiles to supplement the StPs. Zoo is a tough matchup otherwise.

DragoFireheart

05-24-2010, 11:18 PM

Is Counter-Top dying off?

ShiftyKapree

05-25-2010, 08:27 AM

I think CBT is dying off but I can also see it being played in heavy ANT metagames. The list just needs to adapt again to the meta-shift

4zureSky

05-25-2010, 04:37 PM

I think countertop just sucks against aggro and that is probably where supreme blue would come into play.

Adan

05-25-2010, 04:55 PM

I think countertop just sucks against aggro and that is probably where supreme blue would come into play.

No. Actually a build like Nassif's is still very persistent in the current meta. The last time I played I went 5-1. I somehow got lucksacked by Tempo Thresh, but against every other deck, Counterbalance as well as Vedalken Shackles were very brutal. Vedalken Shackles is godlike against Aggro.

I think Countertop is dying off because people don't play streamlined builds anymore. Bant with Natural Order wrecks it's curve by having ~9 cards in addition to their lands that hit no relevant spell (these cards being 18ish lands, 3 NO, 1 Progenitus and 4 Forces). A blind Balance does nothing here.

And Supreme Blue is basically the same thing, the list I've seen just play 12 CC2 spells and an overkill of 9 CC3 spells. Same thing as above. You won't be able to efficiently counter CC2 spells (noticed that the format-defining cards are nearly all CC2?).

When Clemens and I tinkered wih several Countertop builds, we always included Predicts as a filler just to have a good or at least playable CC2 card to flip with Balance (not to mention that Predict still synergizes very well with a Countertop shell) because the CC2 slot was always very thin.

Although Supreme Blue seems to be a deck that works, I still think there's a massive design fail.

Jaiminho

05-26-2010, 12:14 AM

Alright, I read the last 5 pages and didn't get to a conclusion about the best response to reanimator. Obvious ones are graveyard hate, but as with CB, it ain't useful if the damage is already being done. Got some questions to keep this discussion going and, hopefully, leading me to the right direction.

- Why people suggest Chain of Vapor? CB Thresh never needed bounce for anything, but now something that bounces not only creatures is here doing what? Why not simply get Seal of Removal or something?
- Does Curfew sound reasonable? It sucks your creature up as well, but that shouldn't be a problem. Tempo loss for the reanimator/natural order (it does work against that too, but not always) player should be way bigger than yours. It may not even be relevant to you. Also, it's the only thing you can do against Inkwell Leviathan.

PS: I haven't played in a while; I might be kinda coming back.

BantFTW

05-26-2010, 06:50 AM

Okay for reanimator:

Jace is quite good against it but you have the problem with the shroud creatures...
Then you've got also counters to stop them and STP-PTE...
But what's also quit nice is this:
LLawan, cephalid empress
It's also very, very ghood against merfolk and it also can bounce someone's Progenitus so..

And whhy countertop is bad against aggro??
I never lose against zoo, sometimes merfolk(just stop the LOA) but after sideboard not^^
Only gobblins is very hard but that's the only one I think...

And why would you play Supreme Blue? Against aggro we've got 3 RWM and I've even got 1 extra kitchen finks.
It's true that we need more 2cc cards, that's why I play also 1 predator and 2 qasali (2 manacost)

4zureSky

05-26-2010, 02:38 PM

haha I am playing the wrong deck in the wrong meta game. I am playing NO countertop in a meta filled with goblins and merfolks! :( I've tried nassif's and supreme blue's build. I like the build wit vedalken shackle the most since it gave me a much better MU. Other than that I shouldn't play countertop with a meta like that I guess.

BantFTW

05-27-2010, 02:16 AM

No lol, play ANT then haha xD
It wins it all...
Or lands or something hehe

bokepa

06-09-2010, 07:13 AM

Hi there,

I've been toying with CB Bant lately. People in my meta have adapted to Progenitus, but just in their sideboards. They bring perish, washout, wing shards, runed halo. So i've started a SB transformation. I want to stay with main NO becouse it just wins games alone.

What i think my list does is getting a better agroo matchup while weaking a bit combo and gy dependant decks like new horizons and loam.

I know i will get flamed by only using 3 CB and 3 top, but think about it: Jitte is superior vs Goblins, Merfolks, its not bad against Zoo let you function under a humility and let you win games you should lose. Yes i weaken my combo matchup but not that much as an active jitte owns belcher tokens, makes ANT go for more storm and can potentially kill a reanimated creature.

Rafiq is there for they sinergy with equipments, trygons, and RWM lifelink.

Regarding SB, If they bring the hate cards for progenitus now they only are partially efective as all the named sided cards wont touch your equipments and you problably will stay with a creature on board.

I would like comments on any weakness you see and if you see any flaw with my sideboard plan and how to side vs Survival.

blueneverfails

06-09-2010, 12:02 PM

Well first thing is first, to bokepa, what is the point of putting in Natural order if you are side boarding it out over 3/4th of your match ups? The only time I would take it out would be against Ant and Enchantress, not against zoo, gobs or reanimate, I can't count the times I've raced a reanimator deck, cuz they reanimate Iona on white and then, I bring in the beats, also against zoo, if you get it off turn 3 or 4, its instant game almost. same for gobbos if you play it right.

Since he is talking about side boarding, I have finally given up my hold on playing 4 color NO CT to take out the confidants for Qasali, and the list I have been testing was actually only 3 cards off the NO Bant list by Jim ORR that got 2nd place at Philly. Right now I'm trying to get a solid sideboard for a meta that is like Philly with a lot of zoo, reanimate and such, but can't seem to keep a list that I like. Anyone here had some success and could you also post what are the main things to take out for match ups? I've got another tourney tonight, so I will come back and see If I can give what I think I should take out and put in so that people can help me tweak.

bokepa

06-09-2010, 12:30 PM

The idea is that most decks bring hate for progenitus but just in their side:, perish, washout, wing shards, circle of protections, runed halo...etc they will bring it game2 and you blank most of their sideboard by changing NO.

I also won a lot of games racing with progenitus, but i also lost a lot because i NO just to get perished or washedout. Lately i've lost more than win with NO post-board so thats why i change.

And btw, reanimator should be reanimating Inkwell vs us and good luck with progenitus vs BR goblins with Earwing Squads, Perish, Warren Weirding and Wort.

blueneverfails

06-13-2010, 01:37 AM

The idea is that most decks bring hate for progenitus but just in their side:, perish, washout, wing shards, circle of protections, runed halo...etc they will bring it game2 and you blank most of their sideboard by changing NO.

I also won a lot of games racing with progenitus, but i also lost a lot because i NO just to get perished or washedout. Lately i've lost more than win with NO post-board so thats why i change.

And btw, reanimator should be reanimating Inkwell vs us and good luck with progenitus vs BR goblins with Earwing Squads, Perish, Warren Weirding and Wort.

With my experience, even with my GPT that I sadly got third in today, every reanimator I have faced brings in iona, not inkwell, so I will go off my own experience plus, you can still race with inkwell, all you gotta do is drop 1 more creature plus progen to win. And it has proven itself by the numbers that the black version rarely run. Goblins, is only about 5% of the format in big tournies and out of the 5 only about 20% are black, which means 1% of the whole tourny is black.

Whit3 Ghost

06-13-2010, 05:34 PM

I took Andy Probasco's list from Chicago to the local today with a few tweaks to the local today and picked up a couple packs for my trouble. Even though only 8-12 people show up, the metagame is always super competitive. I played against Bant Survival (2-1), Burn (0-2), 4c Landstill (2-1) and Goblins (2-1) to make top4.

I cut the two Grips and one of the Tops to add three Firespout to the maindeck and they were phenomenal all day.
My list looked like this:

What's so much fun about this deck is it's raw power level. Counterbalance, Shackles, Sower and Firespout all won me games on their own and combined with several powerful engines in Top and Academy Ruins, there's not much that a lot of decks can do. One of the problems that I did run into was that your curve sometimes leads to slow starts out of the gate, but that's really only relevant against hyper aggressive decks and is mitigated by boarding in seven one for ones to slow down decks like Goblins and Zoo to the point where you just outclass them in the lategame.

This deck fits very well into the current meta and it's something that hopefully more people will pick up.

Piceli89

06-13-2010, 06:03 PM

Is Counter-Top dying off?

I hoped so. Time to play decks requiring skills.

keys

06-14-2010, 04:43 PM

I hoped so. Time to play decks requiring skills.

Time to make posts requiring thought.

aznepyon7

06-19-2010, 10:52 AM

The Natural Orders for Proggy and additional PtE to support the STP seems important now that Mystical Tutor is being banned.

It's starting to look that Zoo is going to go crazy again now that ANT and Reanimator have been dealt a blow.

Raptor

06-19-2010, 11:29 AM

The Natural Orders for Proggy and additional PtE to support the STP seems important now that Mystical Tutor is being banned.

It's starting to look that Zoo is going to go crazy again now that ANT and Reanimator have been dealt a blow.

I actually built with a friend a CBtop deck that was good for the metagame, having an even match up versus aggro and a really good match up versus combo and such, but now that Mystical is banned, I'm not sure if CB top is that good anymore.

Anyway, it's clear that Cbtop deck should now focus on aggro.
I've been thinkering about running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Packing those with a decent amount of creatures is probally going to be good. Versus merfolk, goblins and elves, it steals games.

Also, running Knight of the Reliquary might be a good idea because it is good versus aggro for its big body while being good versus some other critters that other decks are running (while Rhox War Monk has a small body) such as Knights of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf and Terravore.

I'll probally post a list soon.

aznepyon7

06-20-2010, 03:18 AM

I actually built with a friend a CBtop deck that was good for the metagame, having an even match up versus aggro and a really good match up versus combo and such, but now that Mystical is banned, I'm not sure if CB top is that good anymore.

Anyway, it's clear that Cbtop deck should now focus on aggro.
I've been thinkering about running 2 Stoneforge Mystic and 2 Umezawa's Jitte. Packing those with a decent amount of creatures is probally going to be good. Versus merfolk, goblins and elves, it steals games.

Also, running Knight of the Reliquary might be a good idea because it is good versus aggro for its big body while being good versus some other critters that other decks are running (while Rhox War Monk has a small body) such as Knights of the reliquary, Tarmogoyf and Terravore.

I'll probally post a list soon.

Yes but RWM can handle nacatl, lions and will still require a bolt to kill it. I've always found them to be very good in GWU so taking them out is iffy. But with New Horizons being a bigger threat then ever, I can see your point. However, their Knights are likely to be larger than yours.

Darkinsanity

06-20-2010, 12:42 PM

So I'm new to Legacy, but I have most of the cards for this deck already, so I figured I'd play it. I always wanted to make this deck, but it seems like it has been been somewhat on the decline, even if it's still a relatively solid choice. But won't the new changes to Legacy, mainly the banning of Mystical Tutor just make this deck better? I mean ANT, and Reanimator seems like relatively good match ups anyways because they are combo, but it seems like the banning just made those decks a little more fair.

Not saying I exactly agree with the banning, because if I had the cards I would certainly like to play one of those decks, but as it is I have Zoo, Countertop, Goblins, Dredge, and Affinity I guess, but that isn't much fun without Skull Clamp haha.

But anyways I'm interested in hearing peoples thoughts on the changes to Legacy, and what it means for this deck.

blueneverfails

06-20-2010, 01:07 PM

well you beat me to it so to speak but I will narrow the question a bit more, with the instant decline in reanimator and combo, the rise in zoo will be huge, so we will have to evolve into beating that deck while keeping the consistency that this deck always had. Anyone have any ideas? my first Idea was to include jittes main board, and possible more paths in the side.

BantFTW

06-20-2010, 04:24 PM

Zoo is like a really easy matchup lol??
Just drop a progenitus and game^^
So that won't be the problem I think...

Idk but countertop progenitus seems like one of the best decks now.
Hard matchups are gobblins, and merfolks (just keep off the LOA) so I think this is a solid choice now...
Something els lol?

I think this deck seems so much better because the banning of mystical tutor (what's really bullshit...)

But:

I think cb-top ain't really needed anymore so we can drop that and play like
stonforge and maybe also kotr like I saw some posts ago^^
But do we play enough lands for that :O?

oldbsturgeon

06-20-2010, 05:11 PM

Countertop was my deck of choice for a real long time, and is what I will NOW be playing in Columbus :cry:
Anyway because I realize zoo will be the premier aggro deck, what I did was use some of the spots in the main I could play around with to add 2 wall of roots to my deck.
Though I could see it also being Jitte.
With that said, it now looks like
4 tarmogoyf
4 rhox war mox
4 noble hierarch
2 wall of roots/umezawa's jitte
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 daze
3 natural order
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 flooded strand
1 windswept heath
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
my sideboard would be something like this, knowing zoo is big now
3 hydroblast
3 submerge
3 krosan grip
2 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
1 jace the mindsculptor
1 flex spot
with the unbanning of grim monolith, maybe it could be a 4th arifact hate card like trygon predator?
Then again I could cut 1 relic and add 2 pithing needle.
This is really up in the air at this point though.

BantFTW

06-20-2010, 05:23 PM

Why would you really play cb-top?
It's good but you can go much harder now without it because you don't really need it anymore :O
but yeah I'll test it now

And at your list, I think 1 WOR is enough as extra 2 managuy and wall and sac-beast and you don't need a basic forest...
Also I would go for PTE sideboard 3x.
And also you can go than +2 extra predator main and that's what my list is and I really like it lol...

blueneverfails

06-20-2010, 08:24 PM

Why would you really play cb-top?
It's good but you can go much harder now without it because you don't really need it anymore :O
but yeah I'll test it now

And at your list, I think 1 WOR is enough as extra 2 managuy and wall and sac-beast and you don't need a basic forest...
Also I would go for PTE sideboard 3x.
And also you can go than +2 extra predator main and that's what my list is and I really like it lol...

if you want to drop off countertop, then go to a different thread. This thread is for countertop decks only.

obituary 95

06-20-2010, 09:10 PM

I actually think this deck will be a fine deck choice post ban. because there is probably going to be a storm deck to replace ant not to mention if lock decks come out to play than zoo could be a really bad deck choice for the meta. but we probably wont know the extent of the shift till the scg 10k

sauce

06-20-2010, 09:25 PM

merfolk and goblins and zoo will be in abundance if ANT/Reanimator fall off the map.
2 out of those 3 are subpar matchups for counterbalance decks.

i would say the banning of mystical tutor hurts counterbalance as it takes away two favorable matchups and pushes people to play aggro even more as it is unchecked by combo.

raharu

06-20-2010, 10:08 PM

It's a thought that two of those three are bad matchups because of the Natural Order nonsense? Not being negative, but isn't it accurate to say that the older lists that didn't run the Bant set-up had much better matcu-ups against those decks? It sounds really, *really* stupid, but the lack of Ponder in the deck probably hurts too.

Tammit67

06-21-2010, 01:16 AM

merfolk and goblins and zoo will be in abundance if ANT/Reanimator fall off the map.
2 out of those 3 are subpar matchups for counterbalance decks.

i would say the banning of mystical tutor hurts counterbalance as it takes away two favorable matchups and pushes people to play aggro even more as it is unchecked by combo.

Yeah, but decks like this will worry less about combo and start gunning for these aggro decks. Seems like its going to be well positioned IMO

BantFTW

06-21-2010, 05:09 AM

Indeed I see the KotR get played now because that they go quit big, and Zoo and Merfolk is quit in our favor...
gobblins also if you play 4 RWM and stonforge package probably...
And I think that we don't really need cb-top, ok it ain't bad but woudn't we play better against aggro if we leave that and pack stonforge package and rafiq and stuff ;O?

Idk we'll see after some tournaments...

aznepyon7

06-21-2010, 06:01 AM

Indeed I see the KotR get played now because that they go quit big, and Zoo and Merfolk is quit in our favor...
gobblins also if you play 4 RWM and stonforge package probably...
And I think that we don't really need cb-top, ok it ain't bad but woudn't we play better against aggro if we leave that and pack stonforge package and rafiq and stuff ;O?

Idk we'll see after some tournaments...

If Zoo is going to be prominent, why do you think people will play goblins? Also why would you suggest removing CB-Top in a CB-Top thread?

Shimi

06-21-2010, 11:57 AM

Now that MT is banned and alot of people think that aggro will dominate everything(which is a little dramatic)CB decks will need to adapt to new time, so let's assume the merfolks will go down and zoo , goblins and anti-aggro decks will rise.It is the time to play SupremeBlue again?And how could you solve the SupremeBlue vs CBProgenitus issue?

BantFTW

06-21-2010, 02:04 PM

You win against NOPRO decks if you don't let them get the NO,
that would need to work and I'm packing some llawan's against merfolk and also NOPRO^^...
I'm playing red-green-blueu atm (sinds today haha :P) with firespouts ofcourse and some other
stuff but not going to post the list yet untill I've tested enough...

Zoo and merfolk is good, after sideboard is gobblins even good...
the problem is things like Eva green and the rock I think atm...
And maybe NOPRO because of the progenitus but yeah I'll test some more and I'll post the results here then xD

Waikiki

06-21-2010, 03:24 PM

This is the list I developped for the metagame here. With alot of succes by me and my teammates. The deck punishes play mistakes very hard. But once mastered it is very very strong. Yet if the meta becomes less combo I'd considder not playing CB since I guess goblins and other aggro decks will become stronger.

Yeah that's the list, I thought you would maybe want it hold at the forums on benelegacy but yeah whatever :P
Why not 3 lavamancers btw? :O

Whit3 Ghost

06-21-2010, 03:39 PM

I haven't changed the UGR list barely at all from what Probasco ran at Chicago (again, -2 Grip, -1 Top + 3 Firespout), and it's been absolutely phenomenal for me. The maindeck is bulletproof, the only questions I have involve sideboarding.

The extra Needle and Chalice will probably turn into Magus #2 and 3 because of the growing popularity of Lands, but here's my real dilemma. I'm torn between the following changes: -1 Grip, -1 Blast +2 Llawan or -1 Blast, -1 Grip, -1 Crypt + 3 Red Blast. I'm leaning towards Llawan because Magus gives me a ton of game against Control anyway, and the Blue Blasts are more relevent against Belcher/TES. What do you guys think?

BantFTW

06-21-2010, 03:44 PM

Could you post the list here plz?

Whit3 Ghost

06-21-2010, 03:48 PM

Could you post the list here plz?
I did on the page prior, but I'll throw it up here again for comparisons' sake. And I'm glad people are finally rediscovering how good the UGR shell is.

I haven't done a ton of testing with the list, just playing local tournaments and such. Unfortunately, I've only run into Goblins once, and it went rather well. Game one, I got mana screwed (Brainstormed into zero lands) just before I could resolve a game ending Firespout and then blew him out games 2/3 because siding in seven cards worth of spot removal is unfair.

Pardon the rest of my matchup "analysis" because this is all theory, but Zoo doesn't seem that bad. Their early game dudes die to Firespout and Trinket Mage provides Fog into removal. In the lategame, you just start stealing their dudes and you have Goyf and a ton of mid-late game bombs. Merfolk is definitely unfavorable though. You basically have to keep LOA off the board by any means and hopefully hit lots of Goyfs and Firespouts. If you can manage their board to the point that Sowers/Shackles can come online, you get there.

I side in five to seven cards against aggressive decks for a reason, but the matchups are certainly not unwinnable and certainly aren't reasons not to play the list.

royal

06-21-2010, 06:18 PM

Hi,

i'm going to build a countertop deck and want to ask you what you what you think about this list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/counter-top-progenitus/

Thanks a lot!

blueneverfails

06-21-2010, 06:38 PM

Hi,

i'm going to build a countertop deck and want to ask you what you what you think about this list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/counter-top-progenitus/

Thanks a lot!

That list is the one that did really well in philly I think. The list is very similar to what I play and its does very well. The aggro matchup is only around 55-45 and it goes back to 50-50 if the list your facing against runs 4 maindeck pridemages, the jittes are the key. Im thinking about taking this list, and running a single volc or something to add firespout main or side just to improve the goblin/aggro/merfolk matchup, But I havnt tested it to see if it is worth it. I dont like killing my own nobles to do this though, so I might just pack a set of paths in the side deal with this. along with BEB, especially with combo and reanimator gone, we have open slots in sideboard.

And I will reiterated what I said earlier, If you want to take out Counter top from the deck.... GO TO A DIFFERENT THREAD. This thread is for countertop decks only, if you dont want it, then go to the other threads and talk, every decklist here should be running countertop.

klaus

06-22-2010, 11:24 AM

I won a local tournament with the list below. Right now, there's really nothing I'd change about the MD - would you, given you were going to a 100+ event? (adding Daze is not an option)

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Quasali Pridemage Go 2 or none... Why not, when do u sac it? like never you don't really need it...
3 Rhox Warmonk
2 Vendillion Clique is good but against zoo (and it will be going played really much) it sucks it's so fast death^^

It's a good list yes :P I played something like it to but yeah...
Aggro will be played alot now and than afrter it I'll see how I'm going to play the cbtop deck...
Atleast 3 firespouts main and 1/2 EE's I think...

Why perimeter captain then play clique I think :O
Or something els :O...
you already play firespout maybe some EE's against aggro than lol :?
And extra PTE's

Lammina

06-22-2010, 01:38 PM

Why perimeter captain then play clique I think :O
Or something els :O...
you already play firespout maybe some EE's against aggro than lol :?
And extra PTE's

I like the captain for hold the game until jace come to the field, protect me and Jace... without the SDT, is a good turn 1 drop... and is amazing against aggro decks in the inicial turns...

I dont know why, but I dont like the Vendilions... dies for Lightining Bolt... couldnt be SO good...

The Captain dont do damage, but hold games and give us life.

In my opinion, for example: Trygon Predator>Vendilion Clique.

Im wrong? If yes, why? Someone like my idea for Captains MD?

Thx,

Lammina

Shimi

06-22-2010, 06:07 PM

@Lammina: I didn't tested your list and i don't like the 3 Tops(for me it must be 4 tops and 4 CB).Perimeter capitain seens nice but did you tried Wall of Omens(or Blossons)?It seems much better cause it auto-replaces so if your opponent bash and burn your capitain you got 2 life and make a 1 for 1, but if he smash and burn your cantrip wall you got an extra card.
Of course capitain is 1 mana , but i think the times you will like to begin with top go , ponder go , StP EOT or even brainstorm(looking for 2nd land or setting the top) are very high.It also increase your 2cc count(10->13, with CB on table).

Shugyosha

06-23-2010, 09:02 AM

If anybody has problems against Zoo and Merfolk you should add 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice.

Instead of the offcolor Firespout plan which also hinders the deck construction (Hierarch/Pridemage die to it) this package is not only oncolor and nuts against Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and against many other decks, too. Topdecked Equipment can turn around any game where creatures are involved, even creautes Firespout can't kill. It also helps with one of CounterTop's constant problems in aggro matchups: Hierarch and Pridemage are too weak on their own. Even Bolt on a Hierarch in response to equip or Pridemage activation on your equipment is still ok because they waste potential damage to your head that way and half of the time Mystic already granted card advantage.

The only problem is space if you are already running NO/Prog. It could be still a sideboard plan then instead of additional Path's.

Plague Sliver

06-24-2010, 12:31 AM

Stuff

I really like your decklist. To the extent that I reviewed it for a couple of hours today, and have suggestions for a different build. Mind you, I've not played CounterTop competitively so take my actions with a grain of salt.

I was thinking about your Trinket Mage, and 3 CC really slows down the deck. What if we lowered your curve by replacing it with Enlightened Tutor?
If we're splashing Tundras, next step would be to include Swords and Rhox War Monk. Swords seems better than Bolt or Shackles in any meta playing fatties, i.e. New Horizons etc. And Monk doesn't die to my own Firespout. Trinket Mage is 2/2 ... which to me seems like you're paying 2 extra mana for a 2/2 and a fog effect.

Playing Monk led me to a tough decision - the decision is cutting out all the basics. Maybe that's why you chose not to go with W? It can be risky, but I can name Wasteland with Pithing Needle if I know the nonbasic hate is coming.

The weakness of this change is that I can't run Back to Basics / Blood Moon shenanigans, which admittedly is a cool part of the SB strategy.

I also took out the 2x Academy Ruins as I wasn't sure how consistently you'd see them in a game. I have Explosives #2 out of the SB and targeted removal maindeck, so it's not a huge loss ... on paper at least.

Yeah, but do you really need the STP's ;O?
Because that's the thing why you splash it the most I think ?
So why not lightning bolt, you don't have to splash and don't get manafucked
by others and bolt seems enough for the most things what really needs die so^^
Things like noble, confidant...
And does the tutor enough?
ain't a jace, something shackles ..? be better because you get some extra creatures?

I was wondering if anyone has tested anything similar and I'm open to suggestions and questions.

Lord_Cyrus

06-25-2010, 01:53 PM

Seems good but more built for a control-heavy meta... I think you will still struggle against Zoo. Why not play Sowers, at least in the board? I think you would want access to more EE's, rather than more Jaces postboard. Perish is strong but conditional. EE is a more broad answer to the metagame, but you might want both.

Anyhow, I worry you don't have enough removal/sweepers, and that you are very vulnerable to Qasali Pridemage.

Misplayer

06-25-2010, 02:21 PM

I've been away from the game for a few months, but reading the last few pages it seems like Jace TMS is pretty ubiquitous in CounterTop decks nowadays. Are all lists without it simply suboptimal?

Also, Enlightened Tutor seems to be getting more play...since when is that kind of card disadvantage advantageous or even acceptable?

royal

06-25-2010, 04:31 PM

Hi,

do you think playing NO+Progenitus in a CB-Deck is still a good idea after Mystical Tutor got banned? Which Deck is better for the new meta: CB+ NoPro or SupremeBlue?

SMR0079

06-25-2010, 05:05 PM

I've been away from the game for a few months, but reading the last few pages it seems like Jace TMS is pretty ubiquitous in CounterTop decks nowadays. Are all lists without it simply suboptimal?

Also, Enlightened Tutor seems to be getting more play...since when is that kind of card disadvantage advantageous or even acceptable?

The short answer - you take one step back to get much further ahead.

Classic card advantage (drawing more cards then opponent) is not really necessary in Legacy for the most part because tempo is so important. However, that doesn't mean that card advantage in the broad sense of the word isn't important.

The counterbalance lock itself creates massive card advantage, more then you could ever get from draw spells. When you combine this with silver bullets like Moat/bridge/ ect, and the Thopter combo - Enlightened tutor becomes a great invrestment. It sets up your both stack control, board control, and your win con, all of which create massive card advantage.

I won a lot of prizes with NO Ctop, but these Tutor based builds are the wave of the future.

OurSerratedDust

06-25-2010, 05:08 PM

Hi,

do you think playing NO+Progenitus in a CB-Deck is still a good idea after Mystical Tutor got banned? Which Deck is better for the new meta: CB+ NoPro or SupremeBlue?

Yeah, how do you think Countertop should adapt to the predicted "more aggressive" metagame dominated by zoo? More removal, firespouts, stoneforge mystic, or something entirely different?

Lord_Cyrus

06-25-2010, 05:08 PM

@ Misplayer: Jace 2.0 is very much "in fashion" at the moment. That doesn't make him optimal. If you want the most successful list by the numbers - it's got to be the NO/Pro build, possibly with Firespouts in the side. Enlightened Tutor is only good if you are playing Thopter//Sword combo. Otherwise, not so much.

@ Royal: Probably Supreme Blue playing 3-4 Rhox War Monks, based on the amount of Aggro decks that are likely to show up. But if there are still fiesty control/combo players around, NO/Pro might still be best. Firespout seems incredibly strong right now, though, and are worthy of SB consideration if you stick with NO/Pro, which again is still by far the most "proven" list going by past performance.

Whit3 Ghost

06-28-2010, 03:47 AM

So I played the list I posted on the last two pages to a 5-2 11th place finish at the Northeast Qualifier on Saturday.
The only thing I never finalized was the board:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress
2 Trygon Predator

I beat Faeries round one, because Goyf/Firespout/Llawan is just too much for little blue creatures to handle.
Round two, I had to go against Geoff Smelski and Landstill and that matchup just kinda blows. Magus got me game two, and a well timed Spell Pierce combined with Trinket Mage beats almost got there for game three, but Eternal Dragon through like three Standstills was too much to handle.
(After bad beats, ghost riding the whip to Party in the USA happened. Act like you know.)

Post-Ghost riding, I beat Zoo with Firespout, Countertop and Tarmogoyf, with double Sower of Temptation being obnoxiously good either game two or three.

Next came the most boring feature match in history against Show and Tell/Dream Halls. Not to diss my opponent or anything, it's just that the games were the least interactive things ever. I got Counter Top lock game one, got blown out by Progenitus game two (turn one S/T->Prog with Force Backup is really good last I checked) and locked him down with Balance game three as well, stopping an early Show and Tell with a FOW before doing so.

Round five saw me get stomped by the midrange Rock list that t8ed, as Pernicious Deed + Maelstrom Pulse + Tombstalker was just too much for me to handle.

Next up was the second Zoo matchup of the day. Firespout + Countertop got me there game one, but I kept a slow hand game two and he evened it up. Game three had me stabilize at two life with Force backup after dialing up an Explosives for his army of Steppe Linxes and Goblin Guides. Staring down lethal damage with two very fragile blockers in a shrunken Goyf and a Mage is too scary. Luckily, he drew dead and Countertop + Countermagic got me there.

I had a long shot at t8 (read: I needed an act of God), and there was a draft set for top16, so I was definitely playing it out. I got paired against New Horizons, so it was a great opportunity to get some testing in. I started off abysmally, getting Wasted/Stifled out of the game then beaten to death by Terravore before I could get to four mana and resolve Sower. I took a risk and decided to bank on Magus because I didn't see basics and I figured that it would come out of nowhere because he was trying to out tempo me instead of just playing big scary dudes and beating. I kept a pretty strong hand with Magus and a Force, baited with a Top and a Balance and resolved the little guy either turn three or four with Force backup. He got there. Game three saw a similar outcome. Magus was the first card I saw and after baiting with either a top or a Counterbalance, I ran him out turn three with double Force up. Needless to say, he got there.

Thoughts and Observations
Sower/Shackles was meh. They got me there a couple times, and an empty Sower helped me clock Zoo game three of round six, but both were slow and pretty fragile. If they go unprotected like they did against Fae and Zoo they're bombs, but otherwise, they can be a pretty big mana sink for what amounts to a Fog at best. David Gearhart played four colors and Swords to Plowshares today and narrowly missed t8, so maybe that's worth exploring.

As much as Virginia wants to hate, Trinket Mage was actually really solid. That whole Fog->Removal plan I talked about at the top of the page was in full effect against Zoo/Cat Sligh and he definitely gets there, even if it takes a little while. Perhaps Aether Spellbomb or the second EE is worth running over Pithing Needle as your second Mage target. I wouldn't do it in my local meta due to Bant Survival, but perhaps in a more aggressive metagame it could be worth it.

My sideboard was absurd. Seriously, I have never been more content with a tournament sideboard in years. Everything is multifaceted. Nine bombs in Magus, Llawan, Crypt and Predator and six incredible support cards in Bolt and Pierce.

In Conclusion
This deck is really good, I should have played it today instead of Team America redux. I'm still iffy on what to run in the five slots currently taken up by Sower and Shackles. I think I want Jace there, and perhaps 4c with Swords to Plowshares is the way to go, a-la Dave. If anyone has any sweet, on-color tech to play in those slots, I'd love to hear it. I would really like to keep the deck UGR if I could help it.

JCrawl85

06-28-2010, 02:05 PM

This weekend I won a 40 man tournament in Dallas for a Mox with the following list, going 7-1-1:

1. I used to play the NO version of CounterTop, and was never impressed. Natural Order was cute when it was a suprise finisher for the deck but one of the side effects of running 4 Hierarchs, 3 NO, and a Progenitus is that it significantly reduces the power of Force of Will. There were many times where in order to Force a crucial spell, I would have to pitch a blue spell I really didn't want to, i.e CB or say Rhox War Monk to prevent a first turn Vial (which is actually one of the best answers to Goblins and Merfolk in my opinion). Not running the NO/Prog package has significantly reduced this problem.

2. Jace 2.0 absolutely is better than Natural Order/Progenitus in the deck. He enables you to run more blue cards for Force of Will (Ponders, Cliques) and also pitches to Force easily in the Aggro matchups. He is also incredible late game (incredible in the mirror as his Fatesealing ability completely screws your opponent). Several times in the tournament, a game would be at a stalemate, I would play Jace, Brainstorm, establish a complete lock with CB 123 or 234 on top, and remove their library from the game shortly after.

3. Eliminating Hierarch enables you to play EE much easier, and EE is one of CB's best answers to both Zoo and Merfolk, which I consider the deck's weakest matchups.

I don't think I could write a useful tournament report as the details would be flaky, but my matchups were the following:

Classic card advantage (drawing more cards then opponent) is not really necessary in Legacy for the most part because tempo is so important. However, that doesn't mean that card advantage in the broad sense of the word isn't important.

The counterbalance lock itself creates massive card advantage, more then you could ever get from draw spells. When you combine this with silver bullets like Moat/bridge/ ect, and the Thopter combo - Enlightened tutor becomes a great investment. It sets up your both stack control, board control, and your win con, all of which create massive card advantage.

I won a lot of prizes with NO Ctop, but these Tutor based builds are the wave of the future.

Surprised no one's discussed the Countertop deck that took 1st yesterday. As, noted above, I believe Countertop Thopter to be THE build going forward.

I think the sideboard will need to be adjusted to improve the Zoo match. Pridemage and Grip are obviously really good. We 've been going back and fourth between Paths, Firespouts, and Perish in the board. Sitting behind moat is dangerous when they have grip. You have to survive the onslaught and set up thopter sword as soon as possible.

I'm not a fan of Crucible. Oblivion ring has grown on me as it's an answer to an opponents Jace and the Emarukul decks that are in development.

Check the SCG counter top lists that have made top 8 this year. There have been only 5 so far - 2 Natural Order, 2 thopter, and 1 Bant.

Thoughts?

Whit3 Ghost

06-29-2010, 12:21 AM

If a deck needs help in the Zoo matchup, it isn't the way to go going forward. Zoo and New Horizons seem to be the two most consistent decks in the format.

Anyway, JCrawl, I agree with your assessments, especially with the thorough meh-ness of Natural Order, but I have concerns with your manabase. You run the same amount of three or more CC stuff that I do, but you run two less lands than I do as well as one fewer Ponder. I rather like the consistency of 22 lands and ten draw spells, but I'd definitely like to hear how a slightly more fragile manabase is working for you.

Also, why Daze over Spell Pierce? I feel like Daze's drawback is super relevant early game, because you really want three mana by turn three.

The Ruins might be overkill without Shackles, but I really like lategame EE lock against a lot of stuff as well as ensuring that Top will stick. Trinket mage might be meh without Needle, but I dialing up EE against Zoo is super relevant, and I don't want to strain the manabase with Rhox or play such a fragile creature in Clique. Mage beats have gotten me there plenty and it lets me run fewer Crypts or other hate artifacts if I go in that direction.

JCrawl85

06-29-2010, 01:51 AM

Whit3:

1. I haven't had any true noticeable problems with my manabase. I never mulliganed to 5 during the tournament, and as far as I remember only mulliganed 2 or 3 times if I recall correctly (also including sub-par hands, not just no-land hands).

2. I'm not sure if you meant to ask why not Spell Snare instead of Daze (and not Spell Pierce) but I will address both. Daze can be rewarding to good players by punishing players that play into it. On the flip side, good opponents that play around Daze may actually be setting themselves back a turn, which negates the tempo loss of you having to use Daze in the first place. Another thing to consider is the casting costs of the cards in your deck. You may find yourself running Spell Snare because you've noticed that you may have trouble flipping cards that cost 2. In your list you only have 8 cards that cost 2, and I would wonder how often you find yourself having to use Spell Snare because you don't have enough cards that cost 2 in your deck to flip with CB. You should be countering cards that cost 2 by setting that up at the end of your opponent's1st turn by casting Brainstorm, putting a 2 as the 2nd card down, and then casting CB on your turn 2, rather than leaving a mana open to cast Spell Snare. On the draw, Spell Snare is clearly better than Daze, but you also run Force for when absolutely necessary. Regarding Spell Pierce: I feel Spell Pierce has a much better home in tempo decks such as Canadian Thresh or Team America, and also in sideboards to deal with combo-heavy metagames, which CB already has an inherent advantage over in the first place.

3. If running Bant Countertop, Rhox War Monk is an auto include in my opinion. He is an enormous problem for Zoo, and also can gain the life back you lost to early Merfolk beats and clearing the way with EE.

Malakai

06-29-2010, 03:12 PM

Rhox War Monk – This card is played in NO Countertop because they needed a green creature they could pitch to force that would help their abysmal Zoo matchup. He also happens to be randomly good against Belcher, as he stops them from winning through Empty the Warrens, but that’s so rare it’s hardly a good reason to run him.

The problem is that he’s bad against every other matchup. Goblins? He’s difficult to cast early, and by the time you do they’ll have such an army of goblins it probably won’t matter. He can’t even block Piledriver.

Merfolk? He’s difficult to cast at all, here, and tends to be pretty useless once you do since they’re just going to drop a Lord of Atlantis or Wake Thrasher, win the counter-war over their threat, then beat you. Post board Submerge makes him look stupid.

Canadian Threshold? Even more difficult to cast. Post-board he just dies to Pyroblast, or gets Submerged.

He’s obviously bad against other CounterTop decks, in which anything smaller than Tarmogoyf tends to be pretty useless. His role there is just to pitch to Force.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that he’s not even that great against Zoo. Without CounterTop out he just eats a couple burn spells, or a burn spell and Lavamancer activation (or Pyroblast post-board). His primary use has been to stabilize after CounterTop has been established, and he does this job well. However, I contest that there are other options that do this as well, and are far more effective in other matchups. Adding a Basilisk Collar to a deck with Trinket Mages, for example, works fine. Vedalken Shackles is also a far superior board-control card, with or without CounterTop.

Or Firespout. Or more removal to stabilize your life early game. Or Spell Snares to counter Tarmogoyf, which aside from KotR is about the only thing you really care about.

JCrawl85

07-02-2010, 03:03 AM

One thing I would ask is why are people even considering playing Trinket Magel It's one of those things I consider cute... You get your Dreadnought and hope nothing happens. Countertop is THE control deck of Legacy, hands down. We need to consider how we're going to beat our weak matchups. (No offense to those that posted, Dreadnought is not the answer bc of Qasali). I honestly consider the deck I posted the best CB deck (bant version) available at the moment. 1) bc it literally beat the shit out of any metagame and 2) Jace 2.0 literally wins you the game.

Countertop players lets agree, our weakest are Zoo and Merfolk. I want to know other lists solving this problem besides the list I posted and what people are doing about it.

IMO, the best Zoo and Merfolk answer are Firespout plus a combination of LLawan and Mind Harness. Those that have tested.... Is this correct?

Bongo

07-02-2010, 04:53 AM

While I think your list is very good, I don't agree with a few points.

I do not think Trinket Mage is cute - he searches for Engineered Explosives and chumps for a turn, which improves bad matchups like Zoo and Merfolk considerably. I also run maindeck Pithing Needle, which is crucial against tribal decks packing Vial and Wasteland.

Vedalken Shackles is a fine card, but I found it to be too slow against fast aggro, where this deck has the most problems. I also found it lacking against New Horizons, since Knight and Terravore are often too big.

Firespout and Mind Harness have been good, but Llawan was subpar. The problem is that she's too slow (especially on the draw), and manadenial + Daze make it hard to resolve. My plan against tribal decks is to sweep the board with Firespout/EE and contain their development by Needling Vial (or Wasteland in the early game to stabilize).

I have to say, so far it has performed quite well, but I wanted to see what you CBTop veterans had to say about it.
Thanks.

Hanni

07-07-2010, 12:44 AM

One thing I would ask is why are people even considering playing Trinket Magel It's one of those things I consider cute... You get your Dreadnought and hope nothing happens. Countertop is THE control deck of Legacy, hands down. We need to consider how we're going to beat our weak matchups. (No offense to those that posted, Dreadnought is not the answer bc of Qasali). I honestly consider the deck I posted the best CB deck (bant version) available at the moment. 1) bc it literally beat the shit out of any metagame and 2) Jace 2.0 literally wins you the game.

Countertop players lets agree, our weakest are Zoo and Merfolk. I want to know other lists solving this problem besides the list I posted and what people are doing about it.

IMO, the best Zoo and Merfolk answer are Firespout plus a combination of LLawan and Mind Harness. Those that have tested.... Is this correct?

I have to disagree with you. CounterTop is the aggro/control deck of Legacy, not THE control deck.

You consider the list you posted as being the best CB deck, and I disagree. This is not to say that your list isn't good, but the word "best" is very subjective. There's so many different shells that Counterbalance can go into, and Bant is not the only viable one.

Your weakest matchups are actually Vial Aggro, Goblins and Merfolk, not Merfolk and Zoo. CounterTop (the actual lock) is great at shutting down the Zoo player if you can handle the early rush. I'd be more inclined to say that the Zoo matchup is highly dependant on maindeck configurations, color splashes, etc. If you have EE, Firespout, or both... chances are, your Zoo matchup is good.

I've seen this all over the place, where the common consensus is that Zoo beats CounterTop. Aside from being highly dependant on CounterTop's maindeck configuration, this is untrue. It's not highly favorable, but by no means is it a bad matchup, by and large.

jin

07-07-2010, 04:15 AM

I have to disagree with you. CounterTop is the aggro/control deck of Legacy, not THE control deck.

You consider the list you posted as being the best CB deck, and I disagree. This is not to say that your list isn't good, but the word "best" is very subjective. There's so many different shells that Counterbalance can go into, and Bant is not the only viable one.

Your weakest matchups are actually Vial Aggro, Goblins and Merfolk, not Merfolk and Zoo. CounterTop (the actual lock) is great at shutting down the Zoo player if you can handle the early rush. I'd be more inclined to say that the Zoo matchup is highly dependant on maindeck configurations, color splashes, etc. If you have EE, Firespout, or both... chances are, your Zoo matchup is good.

I've seen this all over the place, where the common consensus is that Zoo beats CounterTop. Aside from being highly dependant on CounterTop's maindeck configuration, this is untrue. It's not highly favorable, but by no means is it a bad matchup, by and large.

I agree with Hanni. The weakest matchups are vial decks. Zoo is quite easy after countertop is assembled. My friend actually uses FOW's on nacatls and steppe lynx and it seems quite effective. After CBT lock is on, Zoo really isn't a problem. After that, we just have to wipe the board. Goblins is more of a problem because of their varying casting cost.

Also, I don't see how Mind Harness is better than Path to Exile. Llawan on the other hand is AWESOME against fish. I just hate it when they have their vial out when I use her. Then I just have to remove their vial first. Llawan is better than firespout against fish because cursecatcher can't hit that...

Any opinions? I find interesting the 5-jitte sideboard plan against merfolk, because in my experience one of the biggest troubles playing merfolk decks is dealing with an early resolved jitte.
Maindeck seems pretty solid with mostly 4x of everything, four basics and nine fetchlands. No qasali pridemage though but a single trygon predator that can be tutored with natural order if really needed

RexFTW

07-07-2010, 11:42 AM

ee@2 > fish with jittes

PS, now tarmogoyf is the best instant, not force of will
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/M11/p8hfdoi437_EN.jpg

Hanni

07-10-2010, 07:13 AM

So I watched some videos today from the scg open series, and I caught a game with Jesse Hatfield playing a Supreme Blue list with Knight of the Reliquary.

He ran only Goyf and KotR as his creatures, but he ran a rediculously large number of cantrips, including Portent. He also ran Horizon Canopy.

He ran several EE's as well.

So this got me thinking. Now, I disagree with alot of his card choices, but at the same time, I was very interested with the way he built the deck.

The deck only has 8 creatures, which act as early game blockers and late game finishers. In most matchups, you are the control deck.

The Knight of the Reliquary is central to the way I've designed this deck, particularly because of his land tutoring ability. Horizon Canopy gives the deck a draw engine out of excess lands, and Academy Ruins can set up an EE lock. Kor Haven can help to protect my Planeswalker's, and is just really good in general. A lone KotR can grab a Kor Haven to help defend against multiple attackers until I can draw an answer.

KotR has a big body to block with, and he can still use his tap ability while doing so. Functioning in two different roles at the same time (blocker + utility) is a big reason why he works so well in this deck.

Since this deck is attempting to be a control deck, I replaced Ponder's with Predict's. The deck has enough means of enabling Predict's with Brainstorm/Top/Counterbalance/Jace, and Top + Predict is really good.

Elspeth is a great finisher if you have a big guy on board, pumping them and putting them in the air. On an empty board, Elspeth can come down and end the game on her own. Her ability to lay down chump blockers, especially when the deck already has a blocker or two in play, is a great trump against aggro decks, and if she needs to remain defensive rather than put a creature in the air, her indestructibility can literally seal games up against them.

Jace is also really strong, drawing a bunch of cards, or fatesealing into a win. Fatesealing with a CounterTop on the board means that the opponent is more than likely not going to be able to draw into their way out of the bad situation they are in, with Jace wrapping it up with ultimate a few turns later. The utility to bounce an opponent's creature is a nice little bonus too.

Thoughts?

Frid

07-10-2010, 02:05 PM

I wouldn't play such a list in an unknown metagame. I mean, playing KoTR over rhox and cards like predict and planeswalkers clearly improves the mirror match and control matchups in general, but what about the bad matchups? Goblins, merfolk, and probably even zoo (which of course isn't as hard as the other two) are very difficult to beat playing just 8 creatures and slow cards like the planeswalkers and the predicts.
I really like your list more than mine, which is the one I posted two posts before, but I need to beat the bad matchups at least post board, at with your list it seems a really hard work.

Malakai

07-10-2010, 05:17 PM

I play six creatures in my countertop and don't have any difficulty beating zoo, and post-board have favorable matchups against tribal decks.

Frid

07-10-2010, 05:53 PM

Sorry but I simply can't believe that

jin

07-10-2010, 08:07 PM

Sorry but I simply can't believe that

does he have thopter foundry combo? moat main?

it's really hard to tell if we don't see a list...

BantFTW

07-11-2010, 11:34 AM

There's a list with it^^
Klick on it and you'll see the deck, and yes with the moat and combo :)

dorkogoyf

07-11-2010, 04:47 PM

Hi guys,

I'm kind of new to Legacy. Just picked up a deck before the Starcity 5k in Los Angeles a few months ago at the encouragement of my friends. This format is a blast to play, but some card choices are mystifying me. I originally played the Natural Order version of Countertop, but ended up getting frustrated at the sometimes shoddy manabase (opening on Dryad Arbor and basic Plains with Hierarch in hand gave me fits!) I adopted the recently crowned 5k Champion in St. Louis: the Thopter variation of Countertop.

Now, the sideboard runs 4 Ethersworn Canonist and I'm not sure what matchup they come in for. I know the card is strong in the ANT matchup, but I also remember Countertop variants being a tough cookie for the ANT decks to handle; also given the general notion that the ANT deck is dropping off in popularity due to the banning of Mystical Tutor, I was not sure why the deck needed all 4 copies in the board.

Also, how would this deck board against a traditional Natural Order/Countertop Deck? It looks like the Back to Basics are in for sure, along with Extirpate maybe? Finally, what is the lone copy of Serenity for?

Thanks guys...

jin

07-11-2010, 07:06 PM

There's a list with it^^
Klick on it and you'll see the deck, and yes with the moat and combo :)

Yes, I know it exists.. those questions were rhetorical..

Hi guys,

I'm kind of new to Legacy. Just picked up a deck before the Starcity 5k in Los Angeles a few months ago at the encouragement of my friends. This format is a blast to play, but some card choices are mystifying me. I originally played the Natural Order version of Countertop, but ended up getting frustrated at the sometimes shoddy manabase (opening on Dryad Arbor and basic Plains with Hierarch in hand gave me fits!) I adopted the recently crowned 5k Champion in St. Louis: the Thopter variation of Countertop.

Now, the sideboard runs 4 Ethersworn Canonist and I'm not sure what matchup they come in for. I know the card is strong in the ANT matchup, but I also remember Countertop variants being a tough cookie for the ANT decks to handle; also given the general notion that the ANT deck is dropping off in popularity due to the banning of Mystical Tutor, I was not sure why the deck needed all 4 copies in the board.

Also, how would this deck board against a traditional Natural Order/Countertop Deck? It looks like the Back to Basics are in for sure, along with Extirpate maybe? Finally, what is the lone copy of Serenity for?

Thanks guys...

Uhh.. you can make the sideboard which ever way you want it.. You don't have to play four cannonists or a single serenity if you don't want it.. The cannonists are only for storm combo decks (not only ANT but solidarity, belcher, TES, NLS, you get the idea). The Serenity is probably for the prison decks like Stax, Enchantress, Quinn, Dragon, etc.

I don't think back to basics is a good idea if you are playing a countertop deck of your own, unless somehow it is mono coloured. I think you are better off playing things that remove progenitus.

dorkogoyf

07-11-2010, 08:01 PM

I understand that the board can be built any way I wanted. I was just wondering why the list that won the 5K was built that particular way.

Thanks for the info.

Malakai

07-11-2010, 10:04 PM

does he have thopter foundry combo? moat main?

it's really hard to tell if we don't see a list...

I posted it in the Countertop Control thread, but nobody cared :(

AggroSteve

07-13-2010, 07:10 AM

there is a thread specially for countertop thopter in the established decks forum, and its well visited i have to say, and yes from what i understood they are playing moat or humility mainboard

Eddy Wally

07-13-2010, 07:18 PM

there is a thread specially for countertop thopter in the established decks forum, and its well visited i have to say, and yes from what i understood they are playing moat or humility mainboard

I've got a tournament coming up in which I think I'll face a lot of aggro. I used to have a bant build with the no-pro combo, and an empyrial archangel (against burn and zoo) and a novablast wurm (against goblins, merfolk and progenitus) in the side to swap for progenitus. Because runed halo protects against tendrils as good as against progenitus, I put those in the side, and removed nopro from the deck for more control elements (two elspeth, a second new jace and a trygon predator which pitches for fow and is ok against any rogue artifact deck I may see). Is that a good idea or is it just stupid?

Also, has anybody ever tried novablast wurm in the side for natural order? If the opponent isn't playing white for plow effects, that thing is huge. If it resolves against merfolk it should be gg, in theory, and its ability nukes progenitus. I added and removed it again without taking it to a tournament, and have very little chance to playtest, so I don't know if it works in reality.

AggroSteve

07-14-2010, 07:02 AM

the wurm is definitely an intresting idea, and i do not think you should worry about swords to plowshares, you can allways counter them, you can allways use him as a sideboard silverbullet for game 2 and 3 agaist decks like goblins, merfolk, and the mirror, if opponent has allready out progenitus

i dit not try it out, but if you get good results with it, tell us

Frid

07-14-2010, 09:04 AM

That wurm is too slow to be effective in any case. First of all, against merfolk and black goblins you should sb out the NO+progenitus package, and against the mirror the best answer to a resolved NO into progenitus is your own NO into progenitus, to avoid being owned via stp or in case your life total is below 10.
You guys should test the stoneforge+jitte sb plan, it is really the best answer against merfolk this deck can play!

jin

07-14-2010, 09:28 AM

That wurm is too slow to be effective in any case. First of all, against merfolk and black goblins you should sb out the NO+progenitus package, and against the mirror the best answer to a resolved NO into progenitus is your own NO into progenitus, to avoid being owned via stp or in case your life total is below 10.
You guys should test the stoneforge+jitte sb plan, it is really the best answer against merfolk this deck can play!

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

jin

07-15-2010, 01:30 AM

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

It's also pro blue, so you can block or race. On top of that we play a lot of cards that fix card quality. That coupled with drawing an extra card a turn means that we look at 5 cards at least. i'm sure we'll find a swords to plowshare in no time.. = )

Malakai

07-15-2010, 03:43 AM

It's also pro blue, so you can block or race. On top of that we play a lot of cards that fix card quality. That coupled with drawing an extra card a turn means that we look at 5 cards at least. i'm sure we'll find a swords to plowshare in no time.. = )

Wrong. You are the control deck in this matchup, and therefore need to play control cards. I've yet to see anything that worked half as well as Firespouts or, if your creature count is high enough, the 8-StP plan.

jin

07-15-2010, 03:55 AM

Wrong. You are the control deck in this matchup, and therefore need to play control cards. I've yet to see anything that worked half as well as Firespouts or, if your creature count is high enough, the 8-StP plan.

That's interesting how you dismiss the idea so quickly. How is protecting your creatures and drawing cards not a control plan? It just seems like you haven't fought fish too much if you think firespout works against fish. You would normally need at least 5 mana since you'll probably be fighting through cursedcatchers and daze so I wouldn't count on it. cursedcatcher doesn't hit SOFI or Jitte.

The 8 Swords to Plowshare plan used to work but welcome to 2010. Fish usually mainboards Kira, the Great Glass Spinner now, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on that strategy. My equipment will get my removal through without losing card advantage. Check it out = )

Frid

07-15-2010, 05:51 AM

@Malakai: I can tell you that firespouts and/or 8 swords are very BAD solutions against merfolk playing bant countertop. Not bad, VERY bad. I have tested both a lot, and apart from them I have tested dueling grounds, propaganda, vedalken shackles and many other cards, and the only card that really beats merfolk with bant is umezawa's jitte. The rest is usually crap.
I needed months of testing and losing in tournaments to realize.

Ch@os

07-15-2010, 08:04 AM

Maybe you are not such a good player, it's a fragile matchup wich involves some skill.

Frid

07-15-2010, 09:16 AM

We are not talking about me, but my 1848 rating in eternal proves enough about my skills. My results are always product of hard testing against skilled players and many tournaments.
On the other side, such comments prove that you either haven't tested the matchup at all, or that you aren't "such a good player". Playing against merfolk with bant involves ZERO skill, you need to get asap BROKEN cards to win the game.
I'll explain this to you with another example: When youre playing zoo against ANT, either you get the broken cards that let you win (canonist, trap, gaddock) or you lose.
When you face your worst matchup with ANY deck what you need are CARDS, not SKILL. Skill is always for the even matchups.

JCrawl85

07-15-2010, 09:21 AM

Merfolk is a tough match up, but I've found the best cards to deal with Merfolk are Firespout and EE. Jitte in this match up is too slow IMO. A well timed swords on a LoA can also completely wreck their day as well.

Frid

07-15-2010, 09:46 AM

The big problem of firespout is that it forces you to splash red in an UWG deck. So, it will win many games bacause of its effect, but it will make you lose many more if you face merfolk's mana denial. And if you face cursecatcher its very hard to cast it in time. I played firespouts in GP madrid and my only two losses from day 1 were to two merfolk decks, which was enough for me to search other cards for that matchup. Jitte can be slow if you don't get it in time, that's right, thats why you have to play 5 copies of it between stoneforges and jittes. That way you find it always in the first 3 turns.
EE is totally okay, I play two of them in my sb indeed.

JCrawl85

07-15-2010, 09:51 AM

The big problem of firespout is that it forces you to splash red in an UWG deck. So, it will win many games bacause of its effect, but it will make you lose many more if you face merfolk's mana denial. And if you face cursecatcher its very hard to cast it in time. I played firespouts in GP madrid and my only two losses from day 1 were to two merfolk decks, which was enough for me to search other cards for that matchup. Jitte can be slow if you don't get it in time, that's right, thats why you have to play 5 copies of it between stoneforges and jittes. That way you find it always in the first 3 turns.
EE is totally okay, I play two of them in my sb indeed.

Regarding the Stoneforge/Jitte package... Why not Sword of Fire and Ice instead? I haven't tried either of them, I am just curious if you have.

Frid

07-15-2010, 09:59 AM

Yes I did, and as I said some posts before:

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

I would add to this that SoFI is a turn slower than jitte when you draw it, and that it does little if they resolved kira, which every merfolk deck seems to run maideck now. Jitte deals much more effectively with the 2/2.

Ch@os

07-15-2010, 03:21 PM

A general question, what do you board out against Zoo in a normal NoBant list?

OurSerratedDust

07-15-2010, 03:37 PM

A general question, what do you board out against Zoo in a normal NoBant list?

Some of the sideboards have firespout x3, Rhox war monk, and volcanic island, to side out the natural order package and dryad arbor. It transforms the deck into Supreme Blue essentially, and it works really well.

dorkogoyf

07-15-2010, 05:04 PM

A general question, what do you board out against Zoo in a normal NoBant list?

I typically board out the Natural Order combo and any Trygon Predators if they are in the main. Bring in more creature removal (Firespouts, Paths), more Rhox War Monks if you have them, or you can try out the Stoneforge Mystic/artifact plan.

You'll want to keep the Balance/Top lock, as it is very tough for them to Bolt/Path/Chain Lightning you or your dudes with the lock on board.

We do. To say RWM doesn't do anything against any deck in the format is pretty ignorant. Rhox war monk is a beating against aggro, and can even be good against combo.

Malakai

07-15-2010, 10:01 PM

It's marginal against zoo. All they'll do is attack with an exalted 3/3, or with goyf, or burn it out, or play path. Post board it gets much worse, as they have blasts. This is all assuming they don't just burn you out after you cast it, perhaps with Price of Progress because RWM forces you to fetch more duals than you otherwise would.

It does nothing against goblins, because 3 life doesn't mean dick when Piledriver is an 11/2 you can't block.

It does nothing against merfolk, because they just islandwalk/fly/make-their-guy-unblockable/swarm past you. That is assuming you're able to hit that kind of mana and not have your guy get dazed, which is a tall order in itself.

And it's useless in every other matchup. Control decks don't care. Enchantress, Stax, and Lands don't care. Combo doesn't care.

What you should be doing though, is finding a competent Zoo player who consistently puts up results, and asking them how much it scares them. The response I've always gotten is that it doesn't.

jin

07-16-2010, 12:46 AM

We do. To say RWM doesn't do anything against any deck in the format is pretty ignorant. Rhox war monk is a beating against aggro, and can even be good against combo.

Agreed. The lifelink from Monk is annoying for a Tendrils player albeit I have Tendrils a guy for 38 life, it is annoying when RWM lands because not only is he a clock, in the negative life sense, but also a clock for anyone that wants to go with Ill-gotten Gains.

It's marginal against zoo. All they'll do is attack with an exalted 3/3, or with goyf, or burn it out, or play path. Post board it gets much worse, as they have blasts. This is all assuming they don't just burn you out after you cast it, perhaps with Price of Progress because RWM forces you to fetch more duals than you otherwise would.

It does nothing against goblins, because 3 life doesn't mean dick when Piledriver is an 11/2 you can't block.

It does nothing against merfolk, because they just islandwalk/fly/make-their-guy-unblockable/swarm past you. That is assuming you're able to hit that kind of mana and not have your guy get dazed, which is a tall order in itself.

And it's useless in every other matchup. Control decks don't care. Enchantress, Stax, and Lands don't care. Combo doesn't care.

What you should be doing though, is finding a competent Zoo player who consistently puts up results, and asking them how much it scares them. The response I've always gotten is that it doesn't.

Someone seems bitter..

To be honest, as a goblin player, RWM is the only creature I'm afraid of. In the face Goyf and RWM, I'd burn out the Monk before the goyf. Life gain is underrated in Legacy, the little bit of life matters. Goyf is usually a 3/4 against Goblins where as RWM is a 3/4 life link. Some piledrivers might get up to being 11/2 but on average, our piledrivers swing as a 7/2 or 5/2 because goblin players are usually trying to kill you BEFORE you hit that firespout. A well timed Firespout against goblins means that you have 3-4 swings before the goblin player can come back and that's a LOT of life..

It doesn't do so well against those other decks I agree, but it's the second best beater BANT has. I guess you can always use KOTR but that's not reliably 3/4 where as RWM is ALWAYS going to be 3/4. You claim that RWM is weak against zoo, but the last time I checked, this was a CBT thread. Its interesting how you complain that people aren't playing strong Zoo decks, but it just seems like you aren't playing a very strong CBT deck. How can your Counterbalance let so many 1 drops through because it seems that ALL of your solutions to RWM are that,.. 1 drops. My RWM never dies to lightning bolt or path to exile. No 3/3 has ever killed my RWM.

Maybe it's not the zoo player that you need to worry about but the CBT player that you are.

BantFTW

07-16-2010, 05:24 AM

I always play 3 RWm and a kitchen finks, it is very good, gives life and kills 2 gobblins, against zoo it eats fast burn but also can block one dude death so^^

Quite good I would say :)

Frid

07-16-2010, 06:51 AM

So, rhox war monk is a bad card against tribal decks? A creature that lets you easily race them. Zoo, merfolk and goblins are the only reason I play four rhox maindeck. But they're bad cards, of course, better don't play them...
Can't believe we have to discuss this, so I won't.

BantFTW

07-16-2010, 07:08 AM

Nobody says they're bad lol?
It's just, they don't do much against other decks..
We play them to help against aggro decks and race them, get life etc...

Nelis

07-16-2010, 07:10 AM

Well, the discussion about RWM is indeed not worth having because it is a good card vs Zoo. But the assumption that counterbalance will always be unanswered or on the table on time and effective vs Zoo is an entirely different matter.

AggroSteve

07-16-2010, 07:57 AM

again back to merfolk and goblins, i would like to know what cards all of you prefer for this matchups (specially since i am quite new to this thread)

i would believe that Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be a blast against merfolk, what do you think?, and i think kitchen finks are quite strong against goblins, but i have no real idea since i did not yet go to a tournament with countertop

so what are your suggestions?

Malakai

07-16-2010, 09:34 AM

Agreed. The lifelink from Monk is annoying for a Tendrils player albeit I have Tendrils a guy for 38 life, it is annoying when RWM lands because not only is he a clock, in the negative life sense, but also a clock for anyone that wants to go with Ill-gotten Gains.

Someone seems bitter..

To be honest, as a goblin player, RWM is the only creature I'm afraid of. In the face Goyf and RWM, I'd burn out the Monk before the goyf. Life gain is underrated in Legacy, the little bit of life matters. Goyf is usually a 3/4 against Goblins where as RWM is a 3/4 life link. Some piledrivers might get up to being 11/2 but on average, our piledrivers swing as a 7/2 or 5/2 because goblin players are usually trying to kill you BEFORE you hit that firespout. A well timed Firespout against goblins means that you have 3-4 swings before the goblin player can come back and that's a LOT of life..

It doesn't do so well against those other decks I agree, but it's the second best beater BANT has. I guess you can always use KOTR but that's not reliably 3/4 where as RWM is ALWAYS going to be 3/4. You claim that RWM is weak against zoo, but the last time I checked, this was a CBT thread. Its interesting how you complain that people aren't playing strong Zoo decks, but it just seems like you aren't playing a very strong CBT deck. How can your Counterbalance let so many 1 drops through because it seems that ALL of your solutions to RWM are that,.. 1 drops. My RWM never dies to lightning bolt or path to exile. No 3/3 has ever killed my RWM.

Maybe it's not the zoo player that you need to worry about but the CBT player that you are.

You've misread my post in more than two places. Try again. I said to ask zoo players. I recommend playtesting the matchup and doing it as the zoo player.

Malakai

07-16-2010, 09:40 AM

AggroSteve, yes, Llawan is amazing against Merfolk, but a sideboard can only hold so many cards, and Llawan is a very specific answer. It bounces progenitus as well, which is, you know, cool I guess.

I've never tested Kitchen Finks. It seems like it'd be pretty good against goblins, as it gains some life and persist will actually matter. Against zoo, though, it seems like they just burn it once, then it no longer trades with any of their guys.

pater

07-16-2010, 10:50 AM

again back to merfolk and goblins, i would like to know what cards all of you prefer for this matchups (specially since i am quite new to this thread)

i would believe that Llawan, Cephalid Empress would be a blast against merfolk, what do you think?, and i think kitchen finks are quite strong against goblins, but i have no real idea since i did not yet go to a tournament with countertop

so what are your suggestions?

Being a Goblin player, I hate seeing Propaganda or Ghostly Prison. We've got REB for the Propaganda, but Anarchy is a big cost to pay to kill off Ghostly Prison.

Or go old school with CoP:Red or Sphere of Law.

jin

07-16-2010, 12:16 PM

I always play 3 RWm and a kitchen finks, it is very good, gives life and kills 2 gobblins, against zoo it eats fast burn but also can block one dude death so^^

Quite good I would say :)

Huh.. how come you run finks instead of the 4th monk? The only time I ran finks was when I needed a 5th monk. I'm curious to know your reasoning behind this..

Well, the discussion about RWM is indeed not worth having because it is a good card vs Zoo. But the assumption that counterbalance will always be unanswered or on the table on time and effective vs Zoo is an entirely different matter.

I play 4, so it usually does stay on the table and comes pretty often. Maybe the zoo I play test against dosen't run enough Kgrips?

You've misread my post in more than two places. Try again. I said to ask zoo players. I recommend playtesting the matchup and doing it as the zoo player.

I don't know what you want me to try again. You asked very rhetorically about some zoo player's feelings towards monk to which I responded with you probably don't have to worry so much about the zoo player as you do about your weakness to 1cmc removal spells that might remove your monk. I don't think i misread it. I think i addressed it quite directly and accurately.

I like your recommendation, but considering the support this page just had concerning monk, I think most of the play testing had been done and monk seems to be quite popular against zoo and tribal-esk decks. I'd love to try against you on workstation if you are up for it. Maybe either you can show me how your monk gets killed, or I can show you how CBT works. Eitherway would be educational.

Whit3 Ghost

07-16-2010, 12:31 PM

To be honest, as a goblin player, RWM is the only creature I'm afraid of. In the face Goyf and RWM, I'd burn out the Monk before the goyf. Life gain is underrated in Legacy, the little bit of life matters. Goyf is usually a 3/4 against Goblins where as RWM is a 3/4 life link. Some piledrivers might get up to being 11/2 but on average, our piledrivers swing as a 7/2 or 5/2 because goblin players are usually trying to kill you BEFORE you hit that firespout. A well timed Firespout against goblins means that you have 3-4 swings before the goblin player can come back and that's a LOT of life..

It doesn't do so well against those other decks I agree, but it's the second best beater BANT has. I guess you can always use KOTR but that's not reliably 3/4 where as RWM is ALWAYS going to be 3/4. You claim that RWM is weak against zoo, but the last time I checked, this was a CBT thread. Its interesting how you complain that people aren't playing strong Zoo decks, but it just seems like you aren't playing a very strong CBT deck. How can your Counterbalance let so many 1 drops through because it seems that ALL of your solutions to RWM are that,.. 1 drops. My RWM never dies to lightning bolt or path to exile. No 3/3 has ever killed my RWM.

Maybe it's not the zoo player that you need to worry about but the CBT player that you are.
So your argument is that it's good after Firespout/when you have CounterTop out? It's probably the best thing you have though, because Bant's blue count is laughably low. He's pretty much strictly worse than the Knight if you can support it, though.

Anyway, as for the Goblins matchup, my maindeck removal suite is 4 Swords, 3 Firespout, 2 Explosives. I bring in 3 Path for Counterbalances out of the board.

AggroSteve, yes, Llawan is amazing against Merfolk, but a sideboard can only hold so many cards, and Llawan is a very specific answer. It bounces progenitus as well, which is, you know, cool I guess.

I've never tested Kitchen Finks. It seems like it'd be pretty good against goblins, as it gains some life and persist will actually matter. Against zoo, though, it seems like they just burn it once, then it no longer trades with any of their guys.

It serves as a block still which does matter when there is a Goyf. Eating up a burn plus 4 life gain total (unless its PtE) does give you an advantage.

Because of the trade issue, it's much better against Goblin than Zoo, but even in Zoo, Finks is decent. But between this and RWM, I would probably go with RWM.

Nelis

07-16-2010, 01:17 PM

I play 4, so it usually does stay on the table and comes pretty often. Maybe the zoo I play test against dosen't run enough Kgrips?

I usually put in 3 but we also have 4 Pridemage. I have anyway. I'm a zoo player not a Countertop player but I can imagine taking out Counterbalance like Whit3 Ghost because Countertop is kinda slow.

Frid

07-16-2010, 02:40 PM

Taking out counterbalance against zoo? LOL. First I have to read monk is bad in that pairing, and then I read counterbalance has to be sideboarded out... What's the next? Taking out swords?
Right now you´ve seriously beaten me. I give up here.

Whit3 Ghost

07-16-2010, 08:48 PM

Yeah, Counterbalance stays in against Zoo. I only board it out against Vials.

BantFTW

07-17-2010, 07:32 AM

We've got some merfolk in hereand finks is good against that to, and against gobblins^^
It just kills 2 merfolks/gobblins so it ain't bad and it gives you live, if you got alot of zoo i woudn't play it indeed but we don't have that alot so...

Deady

07-17-2010, 11:56 AM

Don't you guys ever get sick of those neverending discussions about the Zoo matchup? People talk about it like it's the most fearful deck to play against! Not only countertop players, but any player (regardless the deck) seems to complain and whine about the Zoo matchup. I just don't understand why we put that much energy in it. Just play Firespout and Volcanics or don't. If that doesn't work enough for you to win the game, then play a different deck.

I fear Eva Green more than Zoo.

jin

07-17-2010, 12:23 PM

So your argument is that it's good after Firespout/when you have CounterTop out? It's probably the best thing you have though, because Bant's blue count is laughably low. He's pretty much strictly worse than the Knight if you can support it, though.

Anyway, as for the Goblins matchup, my maindeck removal suite is 4 Swords, 3 Firespout, 2 Explosives. I bring in 3 Path for Counterbalances out of the board.

KoTR kinda needs either 9 fetchlands or wastelands to support him. We have neither, so I am reluctant to include him. Plus he is also graveyard reliant, which I do not like. Goyf alone is enough. We know those relics are coming in in some match ups..

No, I'm saying Monk + Firespout is strong against Goblins. Monk alone is strong against Goblins. Firespout alone.., not so much. It doesn't matter if you have CBT lock on them or not because their removal is (in my opinion) superior to zoo (against us).

I usually put in 3 but we also have 4 Pridemage. I have anyway. I'm a zoo player not a Countertop player but I can imagine taking out Counterbalance like Whit3 Ghost because Countertop is kinda slow.

Hmm.. Then I guess they are. My teammates play a combination of 4 pridemages and 2 grips or 3 pridemages and 3 grips. Eitherway, the pridemages aren't that big of a deal if they land early and aren't that bad if I've set up already since I have like 14 two drops. Grip is somewhat more annoying but I guess they just use it poorly. I'm not too sure. Maybe I'll let them know about upping the Kgrip then.. thanks.

Don't you guys ever get sick of those neverending discussions about the Zoo matchup? People talk about it like it's the most fearful deck to play against! Not only countertop players, but any player (regardless the deck) seems to complain and whine about the Zoo matchup. I just don't understand why we put that much energy in it. Just play Firespout and Volcanics or don't. If that doesn't work enough for you to win the game, then play a different deck.

I fear Eva Green more than Zoo.

Dude, I think that's kinda the point for a discussion board and since Zoo is a deck to beat, it kind of matters. What in eva do you fear? Anything that goes past goyf can be plowed. Anything that isn't a goyf can be blocked. Discard is annoying up until CBT is set up. I'm more afraid of fighting prison decks.. LOL.. those are annoying because everything goes over CBT.

Hanni

07-17-2010, 01:06 PM

KoTR kinda needs either 9 fetchlands or wastelands to support him.

8 fetchlands and 2 Horizon Canopy seems plenty to support his size.

We know those relics are coming in in some match ups..

Well, he doesn't die from a Relic, and can pump himself back up after a Relic. If the opponent thinks Relic is a better answer to your creatures than real creature removal, I'd say you're probably in a good position anyway.

Whit3 Ghost

07-17-2010, 06:27 PM

Neither RWM nor Firespout stop Goblins card advantage engines but at least Spout does something about their board state. Not being able to block Piledriver is hugely relevant. I'd much, much, much rather have Firespout against Goblins than the Monk.

Moving on, agreed with Deady about the Zoo matchup. I have yet to lose to it on the back of pretty much Firespout alone (this is with my UGR list with Sower/T. Mage/EE/Shackles as other removal options). If you're having a lot of problems with that matchup either run Jesse's CB Horizon's removal package (5-6 swords + EE) or maindeck the Spout.

emidln

07-17-2010, 06:48 PM

Neither RWM nor Firespout stop Goblins card advantage engines but at least Spout does something about their board state. Not being able to block Piledriver is hugely relevant. I'd much, much, much rather have Firespout against Goblins than the Monk.

Moving on, agreed with Deady about the Zoo matchup. I have yet to lose to it on the back of pretty much Firespout alone (this is with my UGR list with Sower/T. Mage/EE/Shackles as other removal options). If you're having a lot of problems with that matchup either run Jesse's CB Horizon's removal package (5-6 swords + EE) or maindeck the Spout.

Why not play both?

The CB deck I've been throwing against the locals who are going to the GP has them and it seems to work out decently:

Do you ever find that you don't have enough threats? Also, how are the Extirpates working out? What do you find yourself using it on the most? Interesting list.

BantFTW

07-18-2010, 07:07 AM

Why not play 2 jace :O?
They're so good, replace it with the ponders or something else..
Really try it :)

jin

07-18-2010, 10:18 AM

8 fetchlands and 2 Horizon Canopy seems plenty to support his size.

Well, he doesn't die from a Relic, and can pump himself back up after a Relic. If the opponent thinks Relic is a better answer to your creatures than real creature removal, I'd say you're probably in a good position anyway.

do you play canopy in your deck? I do not..

I know he doesn't die from relic. I'm just saying I wouldn't want my knight to take collateral from yard hate though. KoTR is strong if you build a deck that can use it. I'm just saying Monk isn't a bad substitute.

I quite like Jesse Hatfield's deck from SCG philly

Adan

07-19-2010, 03:32 PM

Why not play both?

The CB deck I've been throwing against the locals who are going to the GP has them and it seems to work out decently:

I'm counting a maximum of 9 cards with CC2 remaining in your deck when you have 1 Counterbalance out. Spell Snares CAN raise the count to 13, but even that is still not enough to have a good abuse of CB. That's basically the same design fail I am criticizing about Supreme Blue for like... ever? It's no wonder why Firespout is so important since you have to reset the boardposition over and over again.
Having just 9 CC2 spells makes it easier for the opponent to nuke your CB with Qasali Pridemages (obv. you can flip a CC2 card, but I'm saying that the odds for that are reduced drastically with that config).

jin

07-19-2010, 11:10 PM

I'm counting a maximum of 9 cards with CC2 remaining in your deck when you have 1 Counterbalance out. Spell Snares CAN raise the count to 13, but even that is still not enough to have a good abuse of CB. That's basically the same design fail I am criticizing about Supreme Blue for like... ever? It's no wonder why Firespout is so important since you have to reset the boardposition over and over again.
Having just 9 CC2 spells makes it easier for the opponent to nuke your CB with Qasali Pridemages (obv. you can flip a CC2 card, but I'm saying that the odds for that are reduced drastically with that config).

I'm assuming you mean with a CB already on the table. I agree that regular supreme blue decks have that problem of not being able to hard lock someone out of the game with just CBT on the table, but his list looks good. I mean with 13 ways to hit 2 drops, that's really strong. I think that's more than Kazuho's supreme blue. Not only that, it has 6 HARD counters (not inclluding Spell Snare for two drops) as opposed to most CB decks that would have to rely more heavily on CBT lock.

If anything, I think his biggest problem would be the mirror since he plays no dazes. Going into a counter war would be devastating early on. His removal is better than the traditional, but I think he'll have trouble fending off against an enemy counterbalance since he doesn't play jace 2.0, sower of temptation, elspeth or trygon predator.

I guess that's what the Blood Moons and Kgrips are for.. LOL

headjudge

07-21-2010, 03:05 PM

Is this a primer? Where are the actual boarding plans or matchup explanaitions for hm... let's say NoBant.
And please not this Firespout nonsense, thats Supreme Blue.

BantFTW

07-21-2010, 04:17 PM

I really like 3 PTE's, 2 Llawan (for progenitus and merfolk) and 3 dueling grounds because it let's you win the aggro matchup :)
Also 2 jace ain't bad either if you don't play them main...
2 krosan grip is always good

Malakai

07-22-2010, 12:07 PM

I'm counting a maximum of 9 cards with CC2 remaining in your deck when you have 1 Counterbalance out. Spell Snares CAN raise the count to 13, but even that is still not enough to have a good abuse of CB. That's basically the same design fail I am criticizing about Supreme Blue for like... ever? It's no wonder why Firespout is so important since you have to reset the boardposition over and over again.
Having just 9 CC2 spells makes it easier for the opponent to nuke your CB with Qasali Pridemages (obv. you can flip a CC2 card, but I'm saying that the odds for that are reduced drastically with that config).

I've been playing with ten for a long time. This is not an issue. Use your shuffle effects correctly, or play more of them.

Frid

07-23-2010, 08:18 AM

I play 9 fetchlands and 12 cmc2, and I wish frequently I played 14 or 15 of them... but I also don't want to play less than 5 cmc3, so I have to stay with 12, which uses to be the limit to have more than 50% possibilities hitting a cmc2 card with top I guess

Lost both matches when I did not draw a single removal in the deciding game.
Against Merfolk I had 2x Engineered Plague out, but did not find a removal for his second lord :(

Overall Predict was the only disappointing card in the maindeck, it just was too slow and required too much setup. Boarded it for more specific cards most of the time.
Jace was often boarded out as well, but he had his share of the cake when I landed him in the last match vs Bant and he held the ground until I got a Tombstalker.

BantFTW

07-26-2010, 03:11 PM

I like your deck but I really don't like the Predict, what do you think is a good replacement?
Ponders maybe or maybe no draw and you can play something els?

And congratz with your achievement :D

fallenphoenix

07-26-2010, 05:34 PM

Thx, although it's certainly nothing special ;)

I figured, if I ever were to run this again, I'd replace the Predicts with Ponders or more business.
Perhaps another D. Edict, the 2nd Deed or some of ye olde Counterspell.

I'd also add some Doom Blades to the sideboard, for the Zoo and Merfolk decks out there. Not sure what I'd cut, because all of the cards were rather important somewhere.

BantFTW

07-26-2010, 06:01 PM

And have you tested dark confidant?
I think he's like a beast in this deck..
Maybe play him :O??

fallenphoenix

07-26-2010, 06:21 PM

With Tombstalker, Jace, Force in the deck, not so much.
However, I have played various UGB builds before, all of them with Bob and all of them with decent results.

From these, deckcheck.net only lists build w/o Counterbalance, so I'll post the latest list that I still have.

After having played every combination of colors ever viable for CounterTop, I have to say that I find UBG the most appealing.
Mainly b/c of the "solve everything"-cards Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize.

BantFTW

07-27-2010, 05:30 AM

Why do you play a slaughter pact if I may ask :O?

fallenphoenix

07-27-2010, 06:18 AM

The single Slaughter Pact is actually pretty tech, if I may say so ;)

You often need to tap out for a Goyf, Balance or Confidant on t3 to keep up with the pace of the game, but you still want to swing the board in your favor by playing removal.
This is where Slaugther Pact shines, you effectively loose your t4, but if you have one of the said permanants on board, that's negligible.

It's also really hard to daze or pierce a Slaughter Pact, if you're careful. It can also kill Magus of the Moon (and most ppl don't play chalice at zero against CB ;) )

Take these two situations that have happened to me:

1: Against Merfolk on the draw, after Thoughtseizing his poermission I landed a Plague. he is left with a Coralhelm Commander @lvl0, 2 Island + Mutavault. He draws, plays an Island and a Standstill. In response, I play Slaughter Pact on his Commander.
The following turns I repeatedly take one from mutavault but when I have sculpt a hand that I'm confident of, I break the Standstill eot with Brainstorm and then proceed to win the game.

2: Against Zoo on the draw, already at 11 life, he's got a goyf a Nacatl and a Steppe Lynx ready to attack into the Goyf I just played. He attacks, I block the Nacatl and slaughter his Goyf, taking 4 going to seven. Then I spell snare the Goyf he plays postcombat.
I untap, pay for pact, and suddenly the board does not look all that bad.

BantFTW

07-27-2010, 06:57 AM

And what deck you like the most, this or the other you've played :O?
I like the other more but the deed I'll replace it with a pact and I'll see...

fallenphoenix

07-27-2010, 07:14 AM

Right now I think the first one is stronger, with Zoo and Merfolk running around in great numbers.

Deed and Explosives are pretty important here, while Confidant is a little bit underwhelming.

I had several situations where my opponent played Needle on Explosives and I untap to deed their board away, or vice versa.
I also was able to get out of the following situation:
My opponent has a board of 4 lands, 1 Counterbalance, 1 Top, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Quasali Pridemage, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Rhox Warmonk, 0 cards in hand.
I have 8 lands and 1 card in hand, which is Engineered Explosives.

;)

Frid

07-27-2010, 07:34 AM

I don't think playing UGB is a good idea with the given metagame. You need stp and rwm if you want to have any chances against zoo, goblins and merfolk, which reperesent a very big part of the field right now.

JCrawl85

07-27-2010, 09:54 AM

I don't think playing UGB is a good idea with the given metagame. You need stp and rwm if you want to have any chances against zoo, goblins and merfolk, which reperesent a very big part of the field right now.

Menendian posted a great article on Monday discussing CounterTop Thopter. He argues that the deck actually has a good match against aggro. Goldfishing his list yesterday and playing against Zoo a couple games I would agree with him. Moat is devastating against all 3 of the decks mentioned above, and the life gain from Thopters is arguably more important than that of Rhox War Monk, as Sword of the Meek is much more difficult to deal with. I would suggest giving his list a try.

BantFTW

07-27-2010, 10:15 AM

Where do you fiend his list and do you have a link to his article?
I would like to read it :)

ty

JCrawl85

07-27-2010, 10:51 AM

Where do you fiend his list and do you have a link to his article?
I would like to read it :)

ty

It's a Star City Games premium article so I don't know if I can just post the article or the list. I know he'll post his vintage articles on the Mana Drain but I don't know if he does the same here for Legacy articles.

Frid

07-27-2010, 11:12 AM

The big problem of playing thopters is that you become too vulnerable to krosan grip post board. I mean, when you play for example countertop progenitus you don't relie that much on your enchantments because you have three gameplans: Countertop lock, resolving a NO or the typical agrocontrollish plan of attacking with some creatures while using free counters. If your opponent wants to sideboard properly to combat all your gameplans, he will need different cards to do it and he may get the wrongs cards at the wrong time. That is what I like most from countertop progenitus, and that is the main reason I play that deck.
On the other hand, if you play a thopters deck, you absolutely rely on the power of your artifact/enchantment suite, which all can be effectvely be answered for 3 mana. This is specially notorious when you have searched your tools with enlightened tutor and you opponent does 2x1 with his grip, or when you face a lethal army that seems inoffensive under the power of your moat, and suddenly your opponent rips a grip from the top and you're out.
I'm of course not saying thopters is a bad deck post board, BUT I prefer relying on different gameplans if possible to make my deck harder to fight post board. It's lovely when you have a 10/10 or 3 creatures on the board and you opponent has several krosan grips in hand, or when you lock with countertop and your opponent has wing shards and llawan, cephalid empress. Don't know if you can understand me.

BantFTW

07-27-2010, 12:50 PM

Probably it's something like this list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33479
... but yeah it's good indeed but I also like some other gameplans and that you don't only win on one thing^^

JCrawl85

07-27-2010, 01:32 PM

Probably it's something like this list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33479
... but yeah it's good indeed but I also like some other gameplans and that you don't only win on one thing^^

You can also win via Jace/Moat lock and EE/Academy Ruins. I think Glacial Chasm/Crucible lock is also an interesting option I'm going to experiment with in the SB. A smart opponent will concede 1st game once he realizes a loss is inevitable. Nothing is more annoying than losing a match 1-0 after going to time.

Deady

07-31-2010, 10:41 AM

I'd like to hear some insight/opinions about this 'Bant and Tell' list that recently got 1st out of 42 people.

creature [16]

1 Dryad Arbor

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Noble Hierarch

2 Progenitus

3 Rhox War Monk

4 Tarmogoyf

instant [18]

4 Brainstorm

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

3 Spell Snare

3 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [9]

3 Natural Order

3 Ponder

3 Show and Tell

land [17]

1 Flooded Strand

1 Forest

1 Island

3 Misty Rainforest

1 Plains

4 Tropical Island

3 Tundra

3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

2 Qasali Pridemage

1 Rhox War Monk

3 Krosan Grip

3 Spell Pierce

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Engineered Explosives

2 Relic of Progenitus

1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Shimi

07-31-2010, 10:55 AM

This "Bant and Tell" list is very inconsistent , of course it can do some amazing things but I found it too inconsistet in my 10min tests.Many times I had to mull 5 and keep a lack hand or have S&T but no fat and no way to find one(or could not find one) or some times you have NO but can't play dudes or just one that get countered or StP couse i could not play creature + NO without passing priorit.

JCrawl85

07-31-2010, 12:12 PM

I'd like to hear some insight/opinions about this 'Bant and Tell' list that recently got 1st out of 42 people.

creature [16]

1 Dryad Arbor

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Noble Hierarch

2 Progenitus

3 Rhox War Monk

4 Tarmogoyf

instant [18]

4 Brainstorm

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

3 Spell Snare

3 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [9]

3 Natural Order

3 Ponder

3 Show and Tell

land [17]

1 Flooded Strand

1 Forest

1 Island

3 Misty Rainforest

1 Plains

4 Tropical Island

3 Tundra

3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

2 Qasali Pridemage

1 Rhox War Monk

3 Krosan Grip

3 Spell Pierce

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Engineered Explosives

2 Relic of Progenitus

1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Why is this posted in a CounterTop thread if neither Counterbalance or Top is in this list? Can this be moved somewhere so this thread doesn't get derailed?

Deady

07-31-2010, 01:27 PM

Why is this posted in a CounterTop thread if neither Counterbalance or Top is in this list?

That's the list that the LSV and PV went with too right? I personally like it. Has the advantages of CTop with Firespout against Merfolk and Zoo, your weak matchups. The sideboard is pretty stacked against Merfolk. The maindeck Jaces are savage for control or mirror.

dschalter

08-02-2010, 03:33 PM

That's the list that the LSV and PV went with too right? I personally like it. Has the advantages of CTop with Firespout against Merfolk and Zoo, your weak matchups. The sideboard is pretty stacked against Merfolk. The maindeck Jaces are savage for control or mirror.

LSV and PV were running CTop Thopter. I think Martell's list is similar to Sperling's.

BantFTW

08-02-2010, 05:36 PM

What deck do you guys mean with the firespout deck?

Valtrix

08-02-2010, 05:43 PM

Perhaps this deck, which is from Wizard's coverage of Columbus: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome

Don't you think he plays to much lands?
And is karakas with clique so good?
How much goes a karakas these days btw :D

It's similar to a list I've played but I didn't play white so that's quite good...
Now I want to test this hehe xD

Deady

08-02-2010, 06:46 PM

Martell plays 2x volcanic island, 1 basic mountain and 4 scalding Tarn's and this is not only to support the Firespouts. He's also running Pyroblast/REB and 1 Lavamancer SB, although I don't really understand the singleton Lavamancer; I'd probably play a 3rd REB instead. His mana base seems just correct with all the cards he's running; I especially like the Scalding Tarn's.

Untill recently I played UGW tempo, which is a great deck, but it's totally different from Countertop; it's a bant aggro strategy with Wasteland, Noble Hierarch, Daze, QPM, RWM, KotR etc. I always felt I couldn't use FoW to its full potency, but that might be just me (or bad luck)..but the strategy did lack blue cards for FoW to my opinion. Martell's list has lots of blue cards, so most likely you'll always be able to pitch something to FoW, as opposed to Bant Aggro decks which in most cases run Noble Hierarch and Qasali as 4-offs, including Kotr etc, which also means you'll need to mulligan more often without a Daze or Fow/Ponder (= not consistent). The only blue cards left to pitch to FoW aren't exactly cards you want to pitch, as they're quite an important part of the strategy.

Anyway, I love Martell's Countertop build and I just love Counterbalance as a card on its own; it's epic. It's the right time for me to pick up Countertop again to enjoy a strategy that fits more to my playstyle anyway (control). Karakas is good with Clique and I imagine Jace being quite insane as well.

@ BantFTW: Not playing white (for STP) is like not playing SDT with Counterbalance :wink:.

Tammit67

08-02-2010, 08:58 PM

Here's my GP Columbus decklist:
-snip-

There is a much better thread for you to post your list: The counterthopter top thread in established

damnthedoodle

08-02-2010, 09:05 PM

There is a much better thread for you to post your list: The counterthopter top thread in established

Hey my bad, I thought that was the forum I was in...Thanks.

Killane

08-03-2010, 11:57 AM

With Tombstalker, Jace, Force in the deck, not so much.
However, I have played various UGB builds before, all of them with Bob and all of them with decent results.

From these, deckcheck.net only lists build w/o Counterbalance, so I'll post the latest list that I still have.

After having played every combination of colors ever viable for CounterTop, I have to say that I find UBG the most appealing.
Mainly b/c of the "solve everything"-cards Maelstrom Pulse and Thoughtseize.

I played this list at a small local event (11 players) last weekend and ended up splitting for 1st with a Counter-Top Thopters player.

Things I liked:

plenty of 3-drops - this gives you a good shot at Counterbalancing K-Grip, which came up several times on the day.
Malestrom Pulse- this card was fantastic all day long. I love that it kills Walkers' especiaal since the list's lack of 4-drops means no Counterbalancing Jace, which can become a real issue if left unanswered
Bob's - dubh.
Slaughter Pact- this card is HOT! I personally loved it all day long- mana can be tight between digging for answers, spinning the top to balance away card and then setting up Bob draws, and some things just can't go unanswered for a turn in whcih you really need other mana. while it did come up in one game that I would much rather have paid at the time for killing the target, it came up many times that the free kill on a critical turn was key. Nice tech!

Things that didn't seem so hot -

Infinite Ponders - while 4xBS is a duh obvious inclusion, I'm not sure that 4xPonder is ideal. the deck doesn't lack for one-drops, and i think 3xPonder might be correct. I often wished I was drawing something better at least once during the game. 1st turn ponder is quite nice though, and turns lots of marginal hands into keepable ones.

2xEdict- i played against two rogue creature-heavy decks on the day, so I might be baised, but this seems like it should be in the board instead of the Doom Blades, which were very Meh and I think should be something else. Edicts just don;t seem so hot vs Zoo and Gobbos when they are fielding a large force. They're killer good in some matchups, but I most of my games i woudl rather have drawn anything else.

Lack of Jace - I think I'd replace the Edicts in the maindeck with 2xJtMS- they're better vs Reanimator since it gets the dude into the hand instead of the yard, and the infinite 3-drops in this version help keep S&T from becoming a major factor. Also, Jace has great Synergy with Bob and Counterbalance, pitches to Force, etc....

Something I tried to good effect -

I ran a single Consuming Vapors in a number of test-matches and i must say it was really really good. The life gain really helps you to stabalize, it's a 2-for-1, or if they only have 1 guy on the board it Timewalks them sicne they don;t want to cast anything for it to Rebound on to.

Overall I think I'd switch out the maindeck Edicts to the Board and Drop the 4th Ponder, adding 2xJtMS and 1 x Consuming Vapors. The board is a metagame call, and i like the one as presented here, but Pithing Needles are somewhat Meh locally, so for myself, I'd drop 2 of them to make room for the Edicts, and then switch out the Doom Blades for Deathmarks.

Nice Deck.

BantFTW

08-03-2010, 12:09 PM

Can you cb a krosan grip :O?
Always thought you coudn't because of the split second lol^^...
and it's a good deck but agains't gobblins and merfolks you have a really hard matchup..

Sleepless

08-03-2010, 12:18 PM

Can you cb a krosan grip :O?
Always thought you coudn't because of the split second lol^^...
and it's a good deck but agains't gobblins and merfolks you have a really hard matchup..

Counterbalance is a triggered ability that happens when any spell is cast.

keys

08-03-2010, 03:42 PM

@Killane: I enjoy a good BUG CounterTop list every now and then. I don't think I would replace the Edicts with Jace/Consuming Vapors (although if I were to choose between the two, I would choose Jace). I still think Smother is the best black removal in the format. Anything over 3cc generally has protection or shroud anyway. Deathmark in the SB to help against aggro seems good.

So I would take that list and go:
-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Slaughter Pact (what if your land gets wasted next turn...? this is cute but way too risky imo)
+3 Smother

@Killane: I enjoy a good BUG CounterTop list every now and then. I don't think I would replace the Edicts with Jace/Consuming Vapors (although if I were to choose between the two, I would choose Jace). I still think Smother is the best black removal in the format. Anything over 3cc generally has protection or shroud anyway. Deathmark in the SB to help against aggro seems good.

So I would take that list and go:
-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Slaughter Pact (what if your land gets wasted next turn...? this is cute but way too risky imo)
+3 Smother

A couple things. I would mix your removal up to be 2 Pulse, 2 Putrefy, and 2 Smother. When I first started playing CB a played a BUG version and Putrefy was always awesome (gets rid of Tombstalker and other relevant giant dudes).

Also I disagree with Jace in the SB. He is fantastic and should be in every CB deck in my opinion. His brainstorm effect is extremely synergistic with the deck and he wins games on his own. You also have no 4cc cards in your deck.

keys

08-03-2010, 04:49 PM

What would you take out? I suppose you could swap the Cliques and Jaces. Both are there for the control matchup.

Putrefy was great before Planeswalkers existed.

dtrooper

08-03-2010, 05:29 PM

Martell plays 2x volcanic island, 1 basic mountain and 4 scalding Tarn's and this is not only to support the Firespouts. He's also running Pyroblast/REB and 1 Lavamancer SB, although I don't really understand the singleton Lavamancer; I'd probably play a 3rd REB instead.

Grim Lavamancer and Red Elemental Blast serve very different purposes. Grim Lavamancer crushes Tribal strategies - that's why it's there. I'd up the Lavamancer count before the REBs, to be honest, but it depends on the metagame you expect to face. My point is: don't group it up with the Blasts and swap it accordingly.

fallenphoenix

08-03-2010, 07:24 PM

Things I liked:

plenty of 3-drops - this gives you a good shot at Counterbalancing K-Grip, which came up several times on the day.
Malestrom Pulse- this card was fantastic all day long. I love that it kills Walkers' especiaal since the list's lack of 4-drops means no Counterbalancing Jace, which can become a real issue if left unanswered
Bob's - dubh.
Slaughter Pact- this card is HOT! I personally loved it all day long- mana can be tight between digging for answers, spinning the top to balance away card and then setting up Bob draws, and some things just can't go unanswered for a turn in whcih you really need other mana. while it did come up in one game that I would much rather have paid at the time for killing the target, it came up many times that the free kill on a critical turn was key. Nice tech!

Vend. Clique should also help with Jace. If they drop it and brainstorm, just EOT drop Clique and beat Jace's face. Elspeth is more difficult to deal with and much more of a threat imo.
Nice to hear you liked the Slaugther pact :)

Things that didn't seem so hot -

Infinite Ponders - while 4xBS is a duh obvious inclusion, I'm not sure that 4xPonder is ideal. the deck doesn't lack for one-drops, and i think 3xPonder might be correct. I often wished I was drawing something better at least once during the game. 1st turn ponder is quite nice though, and turns lots of marginal hands into keepable ones.

The deck only has 3 Ponders. Matter solved? You can't just cut too low on the Ponders because you need the blue cards. I could see replacing a Ponder for a Jace though.

2xEdict- i played against two rogue creature-heavy decks on the day, so I might be baised, but this seems like it should be in the board instead of the Doom Blades, which were very Meh and I think should be something else. Edicts just don;t seem so hot vs Zoo and Gobbos when they are fielding a large force. They're killer good in some matchups, but I most of my games i woudl rather have drawn anything else.

Lack of Jace - I think I'd replace the Edicts in the maindeck with 2xJtMS- they're better vs Reanimator since it gets the dude into the hand instead of the yard, and the infinite 3-drops in this version help keep S&T from becoming a major factor. Also, Jace has great Synergy with Bob and Counterbalance, pitches to Force, etc....

Edicts are main because of the various threats that otherwise spell game over, once they hit the table: Progenitus, Emrakul, Inkwell etc...
Against aggro they are certainly worse than Doom Blades, but at the time I designed that deck I wasn't aiming for a metagame packed with Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk. If you do, I would increase the count of instant spot removal to 3-4.
Otoh, youl have 3 Pulse as targeted removal anyway, plus Thoughtseize and Counterspells to halt of their major assault.
Not sure about the Jace, I was not overly impressed with him. He gets boarded a lot, because he's just not good enough against aggressive decks. As stated above, perhaps 1 Jace for a Ponder.

Nice Deck.

Thank you. :)

@Killane: I enjoy a good BUG CounterTop list every now and then. I don't think I would replace the Edicts with Jace/Consuming Vapors (although if I were to choose between the two, I would choose Jace). I still think Smother is the best black removal in the format. Anything over 3cc generally has protection or shroud anyway. Deathmark in the SB to help against aggro seems good.

At first I was sold on Smother over Terror because of Dreadnought, which then was a major factor in tournaments I entered.
Then Doom Blade got printed.

Doom Blade kills every creature in the metagame, minus Bob and Tombstalker.
Smother kills Bob, but is also dead against Tombstalker and various other creatures such as Siege-Gang Commander, Kiki-Jiki, Gathan Raiders, Arc Slogger, Baneslayer Angel, Magus of the Tabernacle, Iona, Terastodon, Blazing Archon, Sower of Temptation, Vengevine, Rafiq of the Many, etc...

Many of those must be dealt with. Of course, most of these are niche cards or 1-2ofs in their respective decks, but you've got to ask yourself: Do I want to die to niche cards and 1ofs, because I'm refusing to play better removal?
Unless you have a very sick metagame, you shouldn't face Bob more often than all of the above (plus some I did not mention).
If you want targeted instant removal, stick with Doom Blade.

keys

08-03-2010, 08:18 PM

Hmmm, I think you are right about Doom Blade. (Besides Tombstalker and Gatekeeper) Confidant, Hippie, Nighthawk, Nantuko Shade, and Putrid Imp are arguably the only playable black creatures in Legacy.

I would also consider going down to 2 Ponder and try squeezing in a couple Dazes.

@videogamer99: It's considered bad form on these forums to simply post a list without providing any explanation. Your main deck doesn't look like it has any unconventional choices. In fact, it looks like most Pro Bant lists I have seen. Make sure that you find a way to positively contribute to this thread.

BantFTW

08-04-2010, 12:55 PM

@Justin, your totally right but yeah... It's just a very normal list witch I think ain't good anymore in case of the meta atm, all aggro...
I like this deck very much, more than the deck that got second at GP columbus:
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/rule-of-law-haunted-but-encouraged/ --> explaination and report

I like this and the other list (very similar), because they beat aggro better than the others.
Spout, stp,... I play side 3 lavamancer because you can do some cool tricks with them against gobblins and meroflk to^^
Also karakas-clique is great, you can also do some cool tricks with that combo.

Justin

08-04-2010, 03:20 PM

@Justin, your totally right but yeah... It's just a very normal list witch I think ain't good anymore in case of the meta atm, all aggro...
I like this deck very much, more than the deck that got second at GP columbus:
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/rule-of-law-haunted-but-encouraged/ --> explaination and report

I like this and the other list (very similar), because they beat aggro better than the others.
Spout, stp,... I play side 3 lavamancer because you can do some cool tricks with them against gobblins and meroflk to^^
Also karakas-clique is great, you can also do some cool tricks with that combo.

Good points. It really jumps out that these "firespout" countertop decks only play six creatures maindeck (although nine win conditions total including Jace), as opposed to typical Pro Bant lists, which play 15 or so. Those extra slots are used for firespouts and additional countermagic. Also, splashing into red gives you more interesting sideboard options, such as the lavamancers that you mentioned. By giving up Hierarchs and Natural Order/Progenitus, the deck is less explosive and more controlish than Pro Bant. Based on the results in Columbus, that sees like a better way to go right now.

Firespout Top is different enough from Pro Bant that I wonder if it should have its own thread. There are now at least three solid Counter Top variants in the format that have put up big results this year: ProBant, Thopter Foundry, and this new Firespout variant.

Shugyosha

08-04-2010, 03:43 PM

Good points. It really jumps out that these "firespout" countertop decks only play six creatures maindeck (although nine win conditions total including Jace), as opposed to typical Pro Bant lists, which play 15 or so. Those extra slots are used for firespouts and additional countermagic. Also, splashing into red gives you more interesting sideboard options, such as the lavamancers that you mentioned. By giving up Hierarchs and Natural Order/Progenitus, the deck is less explosive and more controlish than Pro Bant. Based on the results in Columbus, that sees like a better way to go right now.

Firespout Top is different enough from Pro Bant that I wonder if it should have its own thread. There are now at least three solid Counter Top variants in the format that have put up big results this year: ProBant, Thopter Foundry, and this new Firespout variant.

There is also the possibility of playing NO/Prog with Firespout. I believe Engima build a hybrid of NO-Countertop and Supreme Blue some time ago with Goyfs, Monks and Wall of Roots as creatures. Where Firespout gives you the edge in aggro matches, NO/Prog gives you the edge in mirrormatches against variants that don't run the package.

Deady

08-04-2010, 03:48 PM

BantFTW: PM.

Shimi

08-04-2010, 06:20 PM

I would like to discuss about CTop Firespout high curve against Goblins , Merfolks.I look at these lists and keep thinking that there are so many bad cards for these two matchups which are the bad MU.Jaces , Clique, Counterspell and Predict are too slow for this MU , CB is also half dead if there is a resolved vial.Also goblins and merfolks have a good mana base disrupt + tempo plan( 4 wastes + 2 port for goblins and 4 wastes , dazes and even spell pierce for merfolks) .Of course a resolved Firespout could be very nice but against these decks it could land too late or they can recover too fast(goblins case) so I think the 4 StP + 4 Goyf could not be enought to justify these high cc cards which are very good against Aggro-Control and Control.
What I see is that this list is just very good in CB Archtype mirror but did not solved the aggro MU problem.
Someone has the same opinion or a diferent one to discuss?

BantFTW

08-04-2010, 06:31 PM

The lost I posted is good but like you say a turn one vial is really shit, you always need to get off it.
But it has enough removal to hold it up untill you've got a finisher..
I play 3x lavamancer side to help these matchups^^
If you can drop a lavamancer against gobblins and merfolks, you probably win if they can't kill it.
Merfolk can't do that and gobblins only with some cards^^
Otherwise, at those matchups, just kill their key-cards and you'll be much better.

fallenphoenix

08-04-2010, 07:12 PM

Have you tried Explosives together with Firespout? They complement each other pretty good.
I have been running these in a Tezzeret-list, which did fairly well for me, mostly because I always had a bunch of sweepers against both Zoo and Merfolk. I also ran this configuration in Extended-Faeries/NLU, together with Path, and this absolutly kept Zoo in check.

Also, here is a Firespout-list that I piloted to Top8 in a 30ish-ppl-event some time ago.

My losses were 2x dredge, never leave the house w/o less than 4 pieces of gravehate.... even if you run Trinket Mage. Lesson learned.

At this time I was in love with Trinkets, also, Jace 2.0 was not yet printed. I'd change a lot of stuff before picking this up again.
Like... add spotremoval, cut Trinkets and Sower from MD, cut the f***ing Riptide Lab, perhaps add a Jace or two, add land...

BantFTW

08-06-2010, 11:43 AM

I tried the countertop list and it's not that good against aggro, against merfolk and zoo oké totally not bad lol^^
But against gobblins it's bad if you don't have turn 3 firespout because you just die^^
Against other decks the list is quite good.

fallenphoenix

08-06-2010, 01:14 PM

I tried the countertop list

The GP-list?

Valtrix

08-06-2010, 01:21 PM

What I see is that this list is just very good in CB Archtype mirror but did not solved the aggro MU problem.
Someone has the same opinion or a diferent one to discuss?

I agree. It's a little deceptive in my opinion. The aggro matchup certainly becomes better with firespout, but at the same time this is not enough. (For reference, this is me testing versus zoo). The high cc cards are difficult to play quickly and many things are too slow versus these aggro decks, and stabilizing can become difficult. The problem is that there are still way more creatures than removal, in general. Countering things is nice, but unreliable, because if anything hits the board then things are very bad for you. I agree that the mirror is much better, as you have a lot more tools versus a slow deck. The difficult part then becomes balancing the aggro MU versus these mirror matches.

Deady

08-07-2010, 05:40 AM

@ BantFTW

So, how do you like the 'improved' Martell's list with 2x Predict instead of 1 Oblivion Ring/1 Counterspell? Also, how do you like the Lavamancers? I really want to play this deck, but it's hard when people change their mind constantly. For instance: UGW tempo (a variant between New Horizons and Bant Aggro) is a great deck, that has a good game against Merfolk. Still some players don't think it's the right time to play the deck in this meta. It's more tempo orientated compared to Countertop.

Now Countertop is a bit slower but far more controllish, which is why some think it's the way to go to fight aggro (Goblins, Merfolk Zoo), whike some think it's too slow. This makes it all very hard to make a decision on which deck is better to play at the moment. At least one of these blue decks has to be good...exalted triggers, noble hierarch, daze, wasteland, spell pierce, qasali, KotR vs counterbalance, jace 2.0, firespout, spell snare, karakas/clique, counterspell, Lavamancer, Pyroblast.

mans0011

08-07-2010, 11:28 AM

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "this meta."

Do you mean the SCG Open series? Do you mean the place where you play regulary?

There is no meta independent of a group of people who play.

Deady

08-07-2010, 01:36 PM

With 'this meta' I mean the new meta after the banning of Mystical Tutor; which means there are more aggro-based strategies right now instead of combo/control in legacy. There's still some combo and control, but just not as dominant as aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo etc.). Which deck would you play in such a (diverse) meta? UGW Tempo or Countertop Martell? I'm just saying that both of these decks are totally different from each other, so there has to be one that's the better choice at the moment (UGW is clearly more tempo orientated and more agressive, while the other is far more controllish with Firespout, Jace, Clique/Karakas combo, SDT, Counterbalance, Predict, Counterspell, Pyroblast etc. Very difficult to choose between the two.

BantFTW

08-08-2010, 04:50 PM

Today it isn't the time to play counterbalance, atleast not if you got an aggro meta^^
Today I've been to a tournament and I thought like, players will play alot of merfolk (I was right xD)
and also some cb^^
I took zoo bcs of that and I've got top 8^^

Today it's just not the right time, cb is somewat to slow against aggro ^^

EDIT:

Yesterday I've been testing and this is what I ended up (having a quite good matchup against zoo, merfolk and gobblins :D)

This is the best list we've came up with atm lol^^
It's quite fast and can do something against the decks, in the side you play counterbalance 4 and some sword of fire and ice and collar maybe to^^
Let me know what you think and test it :)

cya,

mans0011

08-09-2010, 02:08 AM

With 'this meta' I mean the new meta after the banning of Mystical Tutor; which means there are more aggro-based strategies right now instead of combo/control in legacy. There's still some combo and control, but just not as dominant as aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo etc.). Which deck would you play in such a (diverse) meta? UGW Tempo or Countertop Martell? I'm just saying that both of these decks are totally different from each other, so there has to be one that's the better choice at the moment (UGW is clearly more tempo orientated and more agressive, while the other is far more controllish with Firespout, Jace, Clique/Karakas combo, SDT, Counterbalance, Predict, Counterspell, Pyroblast etc. Very difficult to choose between the two.

Again... it really depends. I could easily see a metagame, even post-banning of Mystical, that is still combo heavy.

Your deck selection and the 'best' deck really depend on the actual accumulation of cardboard where ever you play. Also the skill of the people piloting those decks.

I think that you could easily pick the 'wrong' deck that is 'objectively' the best. Whatever that means.

Deady

08-09-2010, 08:16 AM

Today it isn't the time to play counterbalance, atleast not if you got an aggro meta^^
Today I've been to a tournament and I thought like, players will play alot of merfolk (I was right xD)
and also some cb^^
I took zoo bcs of that and I've got top 8^^

Today it's just not the right time, cb is somewat to slow against aggro ^^

EDIT:

Yesterday I've been testing and this is what I ended up (having a quite good matchup against zoo, merfolk and gobblins :D)

This is the best list we've came up with atm lol^^
It's quite fast and can do something against the decks, in the side you play counterbalance 4 and some sword of fire and ice and collar maybe to^^
Let me know what you think and test it :)

cya,

Looking at your list I can see you'll run into a lot of problems with your mana base. Why do you run Elspeth? Jace is just better in blue decks. Also running Elspeth next to Jace, Kitchen Finks (and Clique) seems off. One time you'll need double white, the other time double blue, the other time double green. FoW definately loses his power with that many green and white sources....your list looks like a Rock deck with some blue cards. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. I'll stick with my UGW Tempo deck, as it plays beautifully and doesn't lose to Merfolk and Zoo. Goblins always remains to be a bad matchup, but I can live with that as any deck has good and bad matchups.

Looking at the top 8 at GP Columbus, why do you think that Countertop is too slow? Martell placed 2nd.

BantFTW

08-09-2010, 10:47 AM

I know but I tested and alot of times it's just to slow, probably because I'm not that skilled with counterbalance decks or something :??
@My list: manaproblems I've never had so^^
Elpseth is awesome dude, you just can race a progenitus if you want and it gives a beast flying what's quite good :O

whienot

08-09-2010, 11:01 AM

Has anyone seen Menedian's list from GenCon? I believe there was Burning Wish, Show and Tell, CB, Top, Goyf, Brainstorm... I know he didn't top 8, but it's interesting to say the least.

keys

08-09-2010, 05:37 PM

Has anyone seen Menedian's list from GenCon? I believe there was Burning Wish, Show and Tell, CB, Top, Goyf, Brainstorm... I know he didn't top 8, but it's interesting to say the least.

Are there Top 8 decklists at least? I want to know if Tim Hunt played BUG CounterTop.

aTn

08-09-2010, 06:15 PM

Are there Top 8 decklists at least? I want to know if Tim Hunt played BUG CounterTop.

According to http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=453 Mennendian's list is approximatively (copy-paste from website):

So I've been playing this deck for quite some time now... I think I've tested every played card for the deck :)
With this post I hope people understand my thinking and perhaps fill me in about the missing parts. I am no expert on this.

CB-Thopter; To much carddisadvantage with the tutors, to easy to hate.

NO-Bant; with the "package" the list becomes inconsistent. Progenitus is a joke on the draw and is sometimes not fast enough t3 on the play. Most decks that did fold to progentius have good answers in the sideboard now (wing shards, Llawan, edicts). Emrakul is the new fatty in town.

So I play Supreme Blue and I've been happy with it so far (19-2-1 in ~1 month).
From my experience I don't think the deck should be tempo-oriented at all. A deck with Jace tend to go long and playing Daze then really suck. The challenge for me have been to minimize the number of bad cards (removal and creatures) in the maindeck and make the deck as consistent as possible. I think this is often overlooked.
A lot of list plays ~10 creatures and some extra Path to Exiles for reasons that "they want a more forgiving deck", "they don't want to go to time each round" and "People play a lot of removal / creatures". Sorry, but I think the deck is not for you. You'll get the 3x Rhox war monk draw against combo and die. In a big tournament playing the most consistent controldeck is prio1 for me. That is why I like Ponder rather than more of the bad cards.

With the CA of Counterbalance and Jace all you need to do is trade answer for threat and win when the dust settles. Other decks can win either by overwhelming you with threaths or by drawing more cards. This is why you have a sideboard! And I hope to get some help balancing it... Right now Im pretty happy with it. I like how most cards work double-duty as hosers for different decks.

As you see the deck is not that different from Tom Martells GP deck. For good reasons! (He came second =P)
For a while I thought RMW in main over the Vendilion Cliques were a must to help out against Merfolk and >oo. With some BeB and Kitchen finks in my sideboard I think It's ok. Allthough Im not totally sold on them... what other aggrohosers are there? Cards with multiple uses and low manacosts are hard to find. Spotremoval for cmc 1 is a must if you want to survive Goblin Lackey and Path to exile does just that really bad. The 4th Firespout could work but is to slow if you play around Spell Pierce.

Other conclusions for sideboard;
Sower of temptation is nice but Jace is just better. Other 4-drops (including Elspeth) doesn't do enough and are all worse than Jace anyway.
Vedalken Shackles is good, but to slow. The CA it generates are compensated with other cards instead.
Engineered Explosives. I really like this for it's versatility but as removal it's just to slower than firespout. Perhaps as a 1-of somewhere in the 75.
Submerge is great "removal" but doesn't kill merfolk, pass.
With the decline of Reanimator I think 2 graveyardhosers are enough. I bring relic against all graveyard decks but crypt only against dredge and reanimate. I like crypt over relic against those decks because you can find them with brainstorm, ponder and top and play them in the same turn. It's 2 mana or one full turn faster than relic when it counts.
Trygon Predator is to slow and the CA is only worth it against Enchantress. In the mirror it's nice, but so is everything but firespout and FoW.
the 1 needle might look random but it's worth the slot against vial/manlands/waste or survival/belcher. The card has high diminishing returns (because most of the time there is only one great target) so I play only 1 (but having good ways to find it!)
ReB is really sick against most decks... Im thinking about upping the count over Spell Pierce but having the opportunity to counter Artifacts and Discard should not be overlooked.

I agree that Supreme Blue is the way to go for Countertop; this doesn't need any discussion (it's still most consistent and it's the best choice when you expect more aggro than combo/control... Jace kicks ass in Supreme Blue as well! Perish is useless against us, as well as Deathmark and lots of other SB cards that are focused on mass (white/green) creature removal. This is definately an advantage over running Bant aggro or Countertop Progenitus, as its more difficult to hate and because it plays the control role like no other. Another advantage is that Supreme Blue runs red for Firespout, which is just a great card in the deck. REB is also solid.

Your list looks really solid and I definately agree with you on the 2-off Ponder (good, healthy choice). Ponder is never dead and can be crucial in the mid/late game to find the piece you were looking for. I don't know about Kitchen Finks, but it could be awesome against Zoo. Also Kira seems like an interesting choice (it's legendary, just like Clique). I agree with almost everything you stated, so I don't have any negative points to share here..it already looks pretty damn perfect for a Countertop deck.

Anusien

08-10-2010, 12:59 PM

I've been working on formulating rules and design constraints for a modern Counterbalance list. Let me post what I have and see what people think:

A) The deck should contain at minimum:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

B) If you're short on win conditions, you should run the third Jace.

C) You should play either two or three colors. That way you can have a perfect manabase with tons of basics, like this:
N Islands
4 U/X Fetchland
1 X Basic
1 X Blue Dual
4 U/Y Fetchland
1 Y Basic
1 Y Blue Dual
0-2 Useful nonbasics that don't cast Counterbalance

D) Trying to run without Tarmogoyf to dodge Path to Exile is foolish. You should open yourself up to as many kinds of hate as possible to force people to diversify their sideboard hate. Against Zoo if they can cut Path to Exile, they get more room to bring in Grips and REB without diluting their maindeck.

E) Firespout is amazing against Goblins and Merfolk, but you need help if you just have Firespout against Zoo so you can beat their Knights and Goyfs.