People who need H1B, basically you are screwed

Economist386c

so economic necessity, in America at least, seems to prove a barrier rather than an impetus to greater mobility.

Well, the 60% of Americans who have moved aren't the ones grumbling, though? And why can't less affluent Americans move? Less affluent Indians and Chinese move to metro cities all the times, often making sacrifices towards that end.

What percentage of Indians move during their lives? I bet it's less than 60%. Same goes for China.

I don't think anyone is claiming that America owes anything to India. That's a strawman. It's just supremely annoying when Americans virtue-signal that they're open to immigrants, and yet, people whose grandparents stumbled off a boat from Europe speaking no English or bring any skills with them, will throw a tantrum when educated Asians try to come in now. It's hypocritical and inconsistent. Do you want only European immigrants, regardless of their skill level? Then change your laws to explicitly say so. Keeping the laws liberal, making it sound like it's all about merit rather than race, and then doing a number when it comes to implementation is underhanded.

I posted a rebuttal to this, citing US immigration statistics, which was promptly deleted.

If we can't cite publicly acknowledged data, why have a debate at all.

@8585: Irrelevant. India is also populated largely by the stock of past invaders, as are most countries in the world today. This has absolutely no bearing on the question at hand and is completely orthogonal to the question of what Ameribros owe to Indiabros (hint: the answer is NOTHING).

Fair point. Those natives too did not owe anything to your forefathers, did they?

Just to be clear--you are saying that current Indian immigrants are going to do to white Ameribros what the original white settlers did to the Native Americans?

I never understood the Indian mentality that somehow 200 million people are superior to others. The Chinese never claimed that, the Americans never claimed that, Europeans never claimed that, yet somehow Indians who built a "glorious" country are claiming that. WHY?

And to your comparison with big companies doing the "same thing". NO they are not doing the same thing. If IBM, Google, Deloitte, or EY hires some foreign worker paying them >100k, that means they probably can't find a qualified native worker for that position. AND THAT WOULDN'T CAUSE SUCH A BACKLASH AGAINST THE H1B PROGRAM ITSELF, WHICH HIGHLY SKILLED INDIANS AND CHINESE MAY NEED IF THEY WANT TO WORK HERE.
Such abuses harm highly skilled foreigners, domestic workers and the IT industry as a whole.(which part of this do you not understand?)

What's worse is that the Indian outsourcing firms too often hire incapable workers from India who has never had proper training to do something that requires a US degree. They are inefficient (despite cost less) and uncompetitive. They'll drag the whole US IT industry down. Guess who's laughing?

Firstly what these companies do is EXACTLY what IBM, Accenture, Capgemini etc do. The Big 4 also do the exact same level of fraud for their B1 and L1 visas.
So stop blaming the "Indians" both for your own mediocrity and your envy. The western media paints a completely different picture about India. But let me tell you the plain and simple reality, about 200 million Indians are superior human beings compared to you. In all ways. Yes. All. I hope you remember that for the rest of your life. If it helps you could feel superior to the remaining 1.1 Billion Indians.
And what is it that the IT companies do. They have Indians willing to work for $5000 a year in India for a job for which they get $20000 from an American company. Which would cost them $100000 if Indians were not an option.
That simple chap who gets $5000 is happy he gets a starting job at the age 21.
The IT companies get a nice 100% margin.
And American companies save $80000
On the other end. Facebook/Microsoft/Google come to Indian campuses and pay $250 G right of to the 21 year old fresh graduate. Purely because of their quality.
Yes India has a wide offering. From $5000 to $250000 for a fresh 21 year old Software Engineer.
It's call a free market. Americans have absolutely no idea what that really means.
I suggest spend some time in India. You might begin to understand it finally.

Your Hindu friends at TCS, INFOSYS, etc are exactly the reasons why H1B has such a bad reputation in the American public now. Faking applications, paying workers minimal salaries, replacing domestic workers more capable of the same job and crowding out foreign workers who are really the target for the H1B visas will only make it harder for everybody. Those clueless coders who need triple time and effort to churn out the same codes are killing American jobs and curbing competitiveness of the American IT industry. If President Alpha prioritizes your Hindu friends to flood the IT industry with low-skilled labor, then he might as well cancel the H1B program altogether.
--foreignbro who has seen what it's like to be part of those big outsourcing companies

President Alpha has been very clear about being for high skill immigration. You can see that the only group other than whites which he specially addressed was a Hindu Republican Group. That should tell you what he will eventually do.
Philosopher Bannon is known to have great respect for Dharma and Hindu philosophy in general.
Overall it makes sense to get the Hindus (who are the highest non white group voting Republican) instead of all others. Also it is less risky to get the Indian software types because they concentrate in already liberal states like California, Washington and NY.
Other than a ...See full post

I never understood the Indian mentality that somehow 200 million people are superior to others. The Chinese never claimed that, the Americans never claimed that, Europeans never claimed that, yet somehow Indians who built a "glorious" country are claiming that. WHY?

just to be clear, what you are calling "the Indian mentality" is the rant of ONE person (who might be an Indian, but who knows).

agree with the posts that profess that the US doesn't owe anything to the third world. but you have to realize that neither trade nor worker movement is a favor to the third world; these things exist because US also benefits from it. you can choose to cut the nose to spite the face, or you can do reform on the margins to continue to import smart people from all over the world while filtering out the non-essential workers and goods.

the reform can be done smartly and without whipping up wholly unwarranted paranoia.

I never understood the Indian mentality that somehow 200 million people are superior to others. The Chinese never claimed that, the Americans never claimed that, Europeans never claimed that, yet somehow Indians who built a "glorious" country are claiming that. WHY?

More straw men. One ranting Indian poster claimed that. It's not an Indian mentality. Quite the opposite If you actually visit India as a white person, you'll find that Indian bending over backwards because they assume you are so superior, just by virtue of your passport and skin color.

Moreover, the poster said that 200 million Indians are superior to you, the modal EJMR poster. Not that 200m Indians are superior to the best Americans. There are unfortunately many Americans who shudder at the thought that the poor starving country shown in BBC documentaries contains ANYONE who is superior to ANYONE in white countries. Why is it inconceivable that 200m people who happen to be Indian may be superior to you, personally, anyway?

The American company pays the Indian firm a certain amount and expects a certain quality. The Indian company gets the level as per the price. There is a demand for the lowest level of software monkey. You on your high horse might see this as wrong based on your personal prejudices but these same low cost firms keep getting repeat orders

And these same firms also get orders for the high level software monkeys and hire them separately for the high end projects. It's called business.

The point is the Indians are big winners of the H1 system relatively speaking. And Sorry to tell you about human psychology.

Remember Karl Marx. The history of the world is the history of class struggle. It's always about dominance and it's always about who is superior.

The Indians were great so long as they were these low life's from a developing s**thole. But suddenly you find them becoming your CEOs and now back home they discover water on the moon and send the most efficient satellites up in the sky and even to Mars.

BooHoo I thought we were so superior!

Guess what. Reality is tough. That is what President Alpha and Philosopher Bannon understand. They understand the unsaid thoughts of the liberals better than you yourself. And that' is why I will respect any decision they make.

Yes this is a civil society and not just an economy. Understood?

I never understood the Indian mentality that somehow 200 million people are superior to others. The Chinese never claimed that, the Americans never claimed that, Europeans never claimed that, yet somehow Indians who built a "glorious" country are claiming that. WHY?
And to your comparison with big companies doing the "same thing". NO they are not doing the same thing. If IBM, Google, Deloitte, or EY hires some foreign worker paying them >100k, that means they probably can't find a qualified native worker for that position. AND THAT WOULDN'T CAUSE SUCH A BACKLASH AGAINST THE H1B PROGRAM ITSELF, WHICH HIGHLY SKILLED INDIANS AND CHINESE MAY NEED IF THEY WANT TO WORK HERE.
Such abuses harm highly skilled foreigners, domestic workers and the IT industry as a whole.(which part of this do you not understand?)
What's worse is that the Indian outsourcing firms too often hire incapable workers from India who has never had proper training to do something that requires a US degree. They are inefficient (despite cost less) and uncompetitive. They'll drag the whole US IT industry down. Guess who's laughing?

Firstly what these companies do is EXACTLY what IBM, Accenture, Capgemini etc do. The Big 4 also do the exact same level of fraud for their B1 and L1 visas.
So stop blaming the "Indians" both for your own mediocrity and your envy. The western media paints a completely different picture about India. But let me tell you the plain and simple reality, about 200 million Indians are superior human beings compared to you. In all ways. Yes. All. I hope you remember that for the rest of your life. If it helps you could feel superior to the remaining 1.1 Billion Indians.
And what is it that the IT companies do. They have Indians willing to work for $5000 a year in India for a job for which they get $20000 from an American company. Which would cost them $100000 if Indians were not an option.
That simple chap who gets $5000 is happy he gets a starting job at the age 21.
The IT companies get a nice 100% margin.
And American companies save $80000
On the other end. Facebook/Microsoft/Google come to Indian campuses and pay $250 G right of to the 21 year old fresh graduate. Purely because of their quality.
Yes India has a wide offering. From $5000 to $250000 for a fresh 21 year old Software Engineer.
It's call a free market. Americans have absolutely no idea what that really means.
I suggest spend some time in India. You might begin...See full post

"I interviewed a group of those workers last fall at a protest organized by American workers' advocate and lawyer Sara Blackwell after they got wind of the impending pink slips. Like the Disney workers and thousands of others before them, UCSF's loyal employees were coerced to dig their own graves: No severance packages unless and until they trained their inexperienced, cheap foreign replacements from India-based HCL Technologies Ltd. by Feb. 28.

Raymond Dy, a UCSF systems administrator, called the severance arrangement "a big slap in the face." Married with two young kids, and the family's sole breadwinner, he felt he had no choice but to comply.

"It's also a privacy and security threat. Kurt Ho, a 57-year-old systems administrator and lifelong Democrat who voted for Donald Trump, recounted his dealings with "very young" H-1B foreign workers who had trouble comprehending basic instructions on how to operate a premiere university's "mission critical systems." Dedicated to his job and country, Ho voiced concern about giving away the keys to Americans' health data to unsupervised foreign visa holders and their counterparts overseas. "This troubles me a lot when I train them. We have to comply with the HIPAA (federal health privacy regulations). As foreigners, they don't have those requirements."

Audrey Hatten-Milholin, a 53-year-old senior systems architect at UCSF who is black, pierced the university progressives' hypocrisy. "After the election" last November, she told me, the school sent out emails to employees "reassuring people that the university would remain diverse" and committed to "inclusion" as an anti-Trump statement.

Yet, Hatten-Milholin (who served 17 years at UCSF) and many of her female colleagues lost their jobs despite "excellent performance reviews" as part of the school system's short-sighted attempt to "cut costs." She appreciated the post-election political gesture of supporting diversity, "but on the other hand, it was like, but what are you doing to us? There are not that many women in IT and they're getting rid of them, the few that are there. Half of them are going to be gone." "

^ UCSF's jobs went to India. It's not an H-1B issue. People sitting in India and working on UCSF IT support do not need H-1B or any other visa.

BS, pure BS. These are jobs that cannot be done remotely, at least not yet.

The more important issue is that UCSF's behavior here is both slimy and short-sighted. I can't imagine there will be no unintended consequences from bringing in incompetent and unaccountable (but cheap!) workers to perform critical tadks.