No Ann. I'm not. This is what the Bush war strategy has come down to. We're not actually relying on a real strategy - it has all come down to the Iraqi National Soccer team.

This is the number one story on Drudge?

All of your hopes for the outcome of this war are now resting on the soccer team. Yes, I'm certain we will read in the history books in 50 years, that Iraq was descending into chaos, but the miraculous Iraqi soccer team united the country to overcome the terrorists.

I'm sorry - but that's foolish.

Like I said - Can we have a real President with a real strategy please.

"Defying orders from authorities, celebratory gunfire resounded across Baghdad and revelers poured into the streets after Iraq beat Saudi Arabia to clinch its first Asian Cup soccer championship on Sunday while mosques broadcast calls for the shooting to stop."

Let's just say good for them. considering the obstacles and circumstances give them their due. it must have been nice to play a game that, if lost, didn't mean meeting up with one of saddam's sons in a torture chamber.

If it helps one bit in calming the country then it is positive and let it go for what it is.

Bush's foreign policy or lack thereof should have nothing to do one way or another with a good win well played.

Let's see. I favored the Iraq War. I was gung-ho for the invasion. I supported the Iraq War 100% until we captured Saddam and Iraq had elections. After that, I said we should declare victory and get out.

I have several years worth of blogging still out there if you don't believe me.

I stopped supporting the war when we lost our focus.

Why are we there anyway? To help unite the Iraqi Soccer team????

That's why we're sacrificing American lives, and more importantly American tax dollars. That's why we've taken the eye off of Al Qeada and have let Osama run free for 6 years????

This is good news for the Iraqi soccer team and its fans. But it's really cheap hackery to present it in a post like this (with the "Iraq Victory" double-entendre) as if it somehow excuses your stupidity for supporting this ongoing disaster.

What would be nice is if so many Americans didn't have to root for the Iraqi soccer team to take their minds off all the dead Iraqis (who can no longer play soccer).

Zeb Quinn said... How many people in the US died on the highways in the last 24 hours?"

Gosh Zeb, you putz, I don't know. Do you know? Do you care? Were they killed by IEDs? Snipers? or just plain old traffic accidents and drunk driving? Which is it Zeb? Obviously you had a point to make here about combat deaths and traffic accidents. Now if you can untangle your head from being so far up your ass that you see brown, why don't you enlighten us?

Surely those 7 dead in Iraq will feel a lot better as will their loved ones knowing that some absolutely sonofabitch uncaring asshole named Zeb is getting his jollies by comparing them to traffic accident victims.

I just asked the question. Nothing more. You read a lot into it, as I knew some people would.

And while, no, I don't know exactly how many people died on the highways in the last 24 hours, but I do know that the average is about 150 road deaths in the US per day, day in and day out, year in and year out. So that's my estimate, about 150. A number by the by that includes many women and children.

So if one's one and only agenda is being concerned about and lamenting needless, tragic, and unnecessary deaths, then it seems logical that one would be just as worried about, if not indeed even more worried about those 150 deaths occurring each and every day than they are about the relatively few and sparse number of casualties occurring in Iraq. Right? Especially when one considers the righteous work that US servicepeople are doing in Iraq. Right? But being concerned about and lamenting needless, tragic, and unnecessary deaths isn't nearly the only agenda at work is it? I think I already knew that.

it seems logical that one would be just as worried about, if not indeed even more worried about those 150 deaths occurring each and every day than they are about the relatively few and sparse number of casualties occurring in Iraq. Right?

Your estimate sounds accurate to me about car accident death. It's something I think about on a regular basis when I'm driving and makes me wonder why so many dumb-asses feel the need to tailgate two inches behind my bumper, or why they're in such a damn hurry.

But it bugs me when people trot out this sort of silly comparison to downplay horrible events (even those of us who support a war should still be viewing it as a horrible event).

Some people say the same things to try and persuade us to call off the War on Islamic Terrorism, like some smug guy at Reason Magazine who once argued that you're much more likely to die in a car crash than a 9/11 type attack so what's all the fuss about?

I don't support pulling out of Iraq yet. We have a moral responsibility there. (Though it's getting harder to argue when we've got an incompetent Commander In Chief.) I also realize that casualty figures are used as propaganda, and that they are viewed differently depending on whether you think there's a just and necessary military mission or not.

But I don't like people who pull out the car accident comparison to try and make people not worry about the tragedies, losses of lives, the horrendous physical and psychological injuries and scarrings, etc. etc. occuring in Iraq, to both soldiers and civilians. When people try and do that - to make me not care - I think they are living in a little bubble in an American suburbia and have a morally screwed up or out of touch view on the human costs of war.

It also comes off as if you view our soldiers as cannon fodder. My father was a marine and is proud to be a marine, but has told me how he sometimes felt like he was viewed as cannon fodder. If you really love the soldiers you might wanna re-examine your mentality. And also remember that casualties are not just deaths, but lost limbs, shell shock, and on and on, that will effect many thousands of soldiers for the rest of their lives.

Interesting that the rabid antiwar moonbats here aren't even aware how successful the surge is. They just keep parroting the same lame talking points: We're not actually relying on a real strategy ...this ongoing disaster. Such ignorance. Perhaps from swallowing too much CNN?

I don't like people who pull out the car accident comparison to try and make people not worry about the tragedies, losses of lives, the horrendous physical and psychological injuries and scarrings, etc. etc. occuring in Iraq, to both soldiers and civilians.

I can agree with that. But by the same logic, you should resent people who use body counts as anti-war propaganda.

I think they are living in a little bubble in an American suburbia and have a morally screwed up or out of touch view on the human costs of war.

See, I think many are living in a little bubble in an American suburbia and have a morally screwed up or out of touch view on the human costs of tyranny and oppression.

See, I think many are living in a little bubble in an American suburbia and have a morally screwed up or out of touch view on the human costs of tyranny and oppression.

I agree with that. I supported toppling Saddam's regime. But I'm pretty blown away by how badly the aftermath of that is going, and how screwed-up Bush is as Commander In Chief.

Bottom line, as harsh as it sounds, body bags are not a valid argument against military operations.

People can use body bags to argue against any war, and most of us agree that some wars are, unfortunately, necessary. If you're against a war, any casualities are too many. I guess it would be a valid argument if you're a pacifist in general, though.

What bugs me the most about people who use body bags as propaganda are those who appear sorta happy when bad things happen that they can use for propaganda, which I hope is a small minority of anti-war Americans. It's pretty dishonest when people on the Hard Left pretend that that isn't going on within their ranks to some extent. There's actually worse mentalities than that going on within their ranks....

The soccer story is important because it runs counter to the manufactured conventional wisdom put forth by the anti-war media. If Iraq is a total horrible disaster and sunnis and shia will never get along, how is it that people are watching and cheering along their soccer team. If it is an exception, the prss should prove why its an exception.

What bugs me the most about people who use body bags as propaganda are those who appear sorta happy when bad things happen that they can use for propaganda, which I hope is a small minority of anti-war Americans.

Maybe you are on to something. Getting up everyday and hoping for more failure, more body bags, more dead civilians in Iraq, more hurricanes, etc... is bound to take its toll on the soul. Perhaps those invested in defeat in Iraq have become so morally twisted that they have lost their souls.

The US paid tens of millions touting the noble Iraqi team liberated from Saddam's tyranny back in the 2004 Athens Olympics while Bush hacks and neocons were in orgasmic bliss as the "heroes" went through the eliminations into medal contention.They were a symbol of the indominable Iraqi thirst for freedom, according to The Man, Rhummy.Of course that was 2770 dead Americans ago, 11,260 American casualties ago when the "unified Iraqi team" of freedom lovers played for the Bronze medal and lost.

I'm not really surprised. Sports heroes have a short shelf life. An assistant soccer trainer we later found planting IEDs and chased down had an even shorter shelf life. One player was killed by Shiite death squads, several of the 2004 squad have fled the country...***************But Quinn is right to state the Lefty love of body bags to push an agenda is an obvious ploy in this war. . As is their "anguish, shock, and outrage" - which is very selective. 20 Marines die in NC training for helo insertion? Not even a Lefty *shrug* - deaths were OK because they were not tied to "Bush lies". Same with Quinn's 150 dead a day in vehicle accidents here, or the military deaths and casualties in Carter's peacetime military annually exceeding Bush II's - Somehow - the packs of Lefties have restrained themselves from demands to allow them to pose draped over THOSE coffins in their "unendurable and inconsolable" grief.

Along with "chickenhawk", a favorite is to have the Lefty huff up in mighty outrage and say "tell it to the mothers of those poor victims you helped murder" when you suggest that US troops killed helping Thais defeat a Muslim insurgency in a helo crash died in a good cause. Generally, a response they can shove their fake outrage up their traitorous asses works well - I've never heard of a Lefty with the guts to say it face-to-face.

As for "chickenhawk," it is always helpful to remind Lefties that national service by groups level of contribution is what military experts look at. The highest volunteer rates are in W Virginia, Texas, S Dakota. Lowest are Massachusetts and Vermont. The highest ethnicity volunteer rates are Native Americans, Scotts-Irish, Southern German-Americans. The lowest volunteer rates for national service are for Northeast and Blue area West Coast WASPs, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons.(Mormons are low because they do 2-year missionary service, but those that do join the military tend to stay and make superb officers and NCOs.)

Republicans do national service at a rate 4 times Democrats do, and without black and Hispanic Democrats stepping forward to serve their country, the remaining white Democrats have a rate 7 times under Republicans, 3 times lower than Independents.

So if a chickenhawk argument exists, it is with political groups, ethnicities, and states that do not contribute their fair share to staffing up America's national service. Nor can Lefties duck it with the excuse they only oppose one war - otherwise they would gladly join...Patterns of volunteering have been tracked since 1973. Same groups are always on the top of stepping up, same groups always constitute the shirkers. Iraq has nothing to do with some groups lack of contribution - because generally, one does not enlist, do ROTC, the Reserves, or accept a commission knowing what the demands of their service obligation will entail.

Hoosier...the best thing you can do when confronted my moronic nonsense is to point it out as such and ignore it.

Nope, just wondering why all your responses are ad hominem attacks as opposed to countering with some factual evidence. I mean is it that hard?

Unless of course you feel closely identified with Cedarford and want to be associated with his bias.

Well as a conservative I'm already a brownshirt in your eyes so it doesn't really make any difference does it?

The thing is, Fen, Sloan, Simon and others present straightforward arguments which they can back up. You and others may not agree with them but all you do is simply throw out epithets (wingnut, brownshirt, neoGOPer etc.) If that is the best cheese you have then by all means don't let me stop you. I'm just trying to raise the dialogue bar a tad.

Interesting that the rabid antiwar moonbats here aren't even aware how successful the surge is.

How can anyone judge the success of the surge now? Isn't that like judging the efficacy of lights as a cockroach inhibitor? Sure, when the lights are on, the cockroaches aren't there -- but what happens when the lights are turned back off?

I don't think the success of the surge can be judged until after the troop strength has been reduced.

Hoosier Daddy said... Hoosier...the best thing you can do when confronted my moronic nonsense is to point it out as such and ignore it.

Nope, just wondering why all your responses are ad hominem attacks as opposed to countering with some factual evidence. I mean is it that hard?"

Because Cedarford is a lying moron who makes stuff up as he goes along. He states no "facts". Opinion..particularly blindass lying "opinion" isn't fact. There is nothing to refute.

Trouble with you skunks on the right wing fringe is that you mistake lying opinion for fact or think that it is which is worse. Cedarford is a brainless asshole and I think that is the prevailing opinion. Why give him anything else than the back of your hand? He is worthless.

Because Cedarford is a lying moron who makes stuff up as he goes along. He states no "facts". Opinion..particularly blindass lying "opinion" isn't fact. There is nothing to refute.

Well then prove it wrong. Its not like he said the earth is flat. If its just lying BS then why bother even acknowledging it with name calling unless there is some grain of truth to what he said which makes you uncomfortable.

Trouble with you skunks on the right wing fringe is that you mistake lying opinion for fact or think that it is which is worse.

Funny cause the same thing can be said for your side. Sorry house but you don't have a monopoly on what is right or factual and have yet to see you posit anything other than name calling.

Read the entire article Hoosier. It still concludes that Iraq is a mess. You are so typical and so rah rah.

Thanks I did read it. I never claimed Iraq wasn't a mess. Hell its been a mess in one form or another since the Brits created that Frankenstein back in 1921. The issue now is that whether one supported the war or not, we're there now so either pack up and leave it to its own devices or try and make it work. I for one didn't think it was a great idea from the start but whats done is done and I'd rather see us try and win it and make it work rather than admit defeat and go home.

In any event that has really nothing to do with what we were discussing.

Easy, look at whats happening on the ground in Iraq now - the surge is having dramatic positive results. I agree with you that we can't judge whether the surge will calm Iraq, but early indicators are very promising. Fingers crossed.

I don't think the success of the surge can be judged until after the troop strength has been reduced

Well sure, but the same can be said of the war in general, and the Left has been calling it a failure and disaster before its finished and the dust dies down. Double standard. You [not you MM] can't proclaim the war a failure when things are going bad, then turn around and say "wait and see" when things are going good. Its dishonest.

hdhouse: Cedarford is a brainless asshole and I think that is the prevailing opinion. Why give him anything else than the back of your hand? He is worthless.

Back of your hand? I see, violence is warranted if one believes his opponent is a "brainless asshole". Looks like all your "brownshirt" ad homs were mere projection.

Truly HD, if I didn't know better, I would mark you as a parody troll of the Unhinged Left. You were once a valued commenter from the Left, interesting to engage and debate with. But over the last year, you've devolved into rage and hatred. What happened to you?

Cedarford: So if a chickenhawk argument exists, it is with political groups, ethnicities, and states that do not contribute their fair share to staffing up America's national service. Nor can Lefties duck it with the excuse they only oppose one war - otherwise they would gladly join

Another problem with those who use the "chickenhawk" ad hom: they claim war supporters are hypocrites for not risking their own lives in Iraq, but the anti-war crowd refuses to risk the same to end the "illegal immoral" war.

If the war is SO bad, why aren't people like Lucky staging hunger strikes on the steps of Congress to stop it? Simply because their opposition to this war is based on politics, not principle. The Left insists war supporters back up their talk with action, while refusing to demand the same from those opposses to the war.

Fen said... "The Left insists war supporters back up their talk with action, while refusing to demand the same from those opposses to the war."

Earth to Fen. The left doesn't believe we should be at "near war" in Iraq. Why would we join up to fight in a war we don't believe should be going on. On the other hand where is the courage of your convictions?...Does the term chickenshit have some meaning to you? hypocrite perhaps?

Well, it appears I can take some satisfaction from completely unhinging Henhouse.

"Lies! Lies! Lies! Brownshirts!"

I wonder if Lefties have worked out a macro key that will frame a non-thought, and reframe it in text of approved Lefty cant and ad-hominems.I agree with other posters that Henhouse has slipped badly in his quality of posts recently.

Poor soul never checked on the Athens Olympics of 2004 and the "miracle Iraqi soccer team", never debunked the disproportionate levels of volunteering for national service that Senator James Webb has written about extensively.

He doesn't dispute that the vapid "chickenhawk" charge fails to explain the 36 year long lack of committment to national service by certain ethnic groups and less religious, less conservative Americans. The real problem is not that 100% of conservatives aren't serving, it is that so few liberals join, even when they were railing at Reagan to save the Angolans, at Clinton for failure to "stop the genocides in Bosnia and Rwanda by sending 150,000 troops to each locale".

And failed to rebut the glee with with Lefties tout the Iraq "unendurable death toll" of Americans and "innocent Iraqi civilians" citing bogus Lancet stats that also include dead insurgents and sectarian fighters slaughtering one another as "innocent civilians."The triumphalism of shouting "7 dead Americans today!!", I don't understand.It's 100% political given 2.2 million Americans die every year, 6,000 a day, 1500 of those "tragically" with several hundred dead doing the civilian counterpart of the military jobs - risky, but indispensible jobs Americans volunteer for as truck drivers, heavy construction, farmers, loggers, miners, business travelers, heavy manufacturing, electric workers....

When is the last time a Lefty group sued so they could be photographed draped over the coffin of a truck driver in their various mourning poses to show us all that Lefties believe such American deaths are "unendurable" and if we say that risks come with a job, the Lefty puffs up and says "tell it to the trucker's family!!".It will never happen. Because Henhouse and others only use their faux concern and outrage about soldier deaths as a selective propaganda tool. They no more care about that - than 770 farmers and ag workers died doing their indispensible, risky job in America last year.

I think I understand the Henhouse rage - which is tied to the dashing of their hopes that election of Democrats would hopefully lead to American defeat and "humbling" before the freedom fighters of Islam, the UN, and human rights groups. The Dems have slowly realized that if they pull out precipitously, the whole ME may well go up in war, forcing America back in to a much wider, greater casualty war. And some Dem candidates are now talking openly about the necessity to keep a residual force in Iraq of several tens of thousands for training Iraqi forces, finishing the job against AQ in Iraq, and as counter to Iran since Iraq effectively has no AF or Navy anymore.

And Lefties realizing they may have to swallow "Bush-Lite" if they want the Dems to win in 2008 so they can get their activist courts in business again pushing the Left's agenda and bypassing opposition by the American public.

Poor Henhouse likely just sees the truth now - that the Hard Left will swallow sh*t one way or another. And more terrorism only adds to the perception the Left shirks national service, shirks responsibility for national security...

From Omar at Iraq the Model (i.e. a real Iraqi reporting from real Iraq):

6:30…

No, the joy is not for "no matter what"….Our team has just won the Asian cup for the first time in our soccer history. The win came through a magnificent goal by the head of our heroic forward Younis Mahmoud at the 71st minute of the match..

Our team ruled the game by all standards; in defense, midfield and attack our players proven that they are the best…they are now the masters of Asian soccer!

Today is definitely the happiest day for Iraqis in years. Tears of joy mixed with prayers for hope on the faces of millions of Iraqis…Words truly fail me and I can't describe the feeling so please pardon me if the post doesn't sound coherent; I hear the cheering and music outside although the bullets of celebration keep falling on the ground and roofs here and there. But no one seems to worry about that, the moment is so great that fear has no place in the hearts of the millions of fans, neither from bullets nor from crazy suicide bombers who tried to kill our joy last week.

Our players, tonight our heroes, learned that only with team work they had a chance to win.

May our politicians learn from the players and from the fans who are painting a glorious image of unity and national pride, and let the terrorists know that nothing can kill the spirit of the sons of the immortal Tigris and Euphrates.