Call for Government action to stop pace of pub closures

THE Campaign For Real Ale is calling on the Government to tighten up planning law in an effort to protect pubs from demolition or conversion - and its Bradford arm is backing it.

More than 170 pubs in Bradford have closed down over the years - nationally pubs are closing at the rate of 31 per week - with many never to return because of a loophole in the law.

Now, CAMRA is calling on the Government to listen to its Pubs Matter campaign and make a simple change to the law in England so a planning application is always required before a pub is demolished or converted into another use.

Currently pubs can be demolished or converted to supermarkets, estate agents and a range of other uses without planning permission. More than five pubs are closing every week in north and north-east England.

Three pubs in close proximity to each other in the Whetley Hill area have all been converted to a different use.

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The Melborn Hotel was on White Abbey Road. It closed in 2006 and is now an Asian clothes shop. The Upper Globe on Toller Lane, which closed in 2001 after being damaged in the Bradford riots, is now a DIY shop. The Woolpack, on Whetley Hill, is now a shoe shop.

Another nearby former pub was the Lower Globe, which has now been demolished.

David Boothroyd, chairman of Bradford CAMRA, said: "It is a loophole that wants shutting. The door needs closing on it.

"I am sure there are a lot of pubs put up for sale that needn't be. They sell quite easily because they can be knocked down or changed. We need to make it more difficult.

"I was looking at one of our old beer guides, and on page after page pubs had gone."

He added: "We have been losing far too many pubs all over the country over the last few years. We, and others, must highlight the problem.

"The pub is not just a place for a booze. It is a place to meet your mates and have a chat, and maybe a meal. It is a hub for the community.

"Use it or lose it is an old phrase, but it's also true."

The future of the Cock and Bottle pub in Barkerend Road has been a long-running issue in Bradford.

In January, the owner of the historic pub - who wanted to re-open it as a restaurant - was been given permission to make some alterations, despite objections from heritage campaigners.

However, a For Sale sign has now been put up on the pub.

Peter Down, of Bradford CAMRA, said a legal process was ongoing in relation to the pub.

David Ward, MP for Bradford East where the Ring O'Bells pub became a Co-op supermarket, said pubs were places that had become part of the local community.

He added: "I absolutely back the proposal. Pubs are regarded as being part and parcel of local communities, as much as community centres and churches. They are part of the fabric of local communities."

Mr Ward said the proposal could give pubs an opportunity to remain as pubs.

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"It gives the opportunity for pubs to be saved," said Mr Ward. "It would give an opportunity that does not exist at the moment."

Tom Stainer, of CAMRA, said: "Popular and profitable pubs are being left vulnerable by gaps in English planning legislation as pubs are increasingly being targeted by those wishing to take advantage of the absence of proper planning control."

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Comments (22)

It's the breweries who are at fault selling the booze to the off trade too cheap and charging more for the on trade. Pubs can't survive and the drinking culture has had a massive change. Over to the government but they knocked back the minimum price rise sadly.

It's the breweries who are at fault selling the booze to the off trade too cheap and charging more for the on trade. Pubs can't survive and the drinking culture has had a massive change.
Over to the government but they knocked back the minimum price rise sadly.Papa Smurfs Wig

It's the breweries who are at fault selling the booze to the off trade too cheap and charging more for the on trade. Pubs can't survive and the drinking culture has had a massive change. Over to the government but they knocked back the minimum price rise sadly.

Score: 3

Albion. says...6:59am Tue 12 Aug 14

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?Albion.

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

Score: 13

Andrew_ide says...7:01am Tue 12 Aug 14

They need to re-assess the opening hours, the 24hr opening was the one change that strangely started this spiral of closures.

They need to re-assess the opening hours, the 24hr opening was the one change that strangely started this spiral of closures.Andrew_ide

They need to re-assess the opening hours, the 24hr opening was the one change that strangely started this spiral of closures.

Score: 6

ever the optimist says...7:15am Tue 12 Aug 14

The majority of pubs that have closed down are in the Asian corridors leading out of the city centre due to the fact they don't drink. The people who do drink who live in those areas are predominantly poor and can't afford 3/4pound a pint. That coupled with the price breweries charge landlords in rent etc is killing the trade. Country pubs are also suffering due to the lack of drinkers. Another thing to ruin pubs was the smoking ban, you may as well invite your friends to your house, smoke to your hearts content whilst drinking the 20 bottles of bud you got for a tenner at tesco's.

The majority of pubs that have closed down are in the Asian corridors leading out of the city centre due to the fact they don't drink. The people who do drink who live in those areas are predominantly poor and can't afford 3/4pound a pint. That coupled with the price breweries charge landlords in rent etc is killing the trade. Country pubs are also suffering due to the lack of drinkers.
Another thing to ruin pubs was the smoking ban, you may as well invite your friends to your house, smoke to your hearts content whilst drinking the 20 bottles of bud you got for a tenner at tesco's.ever the optimist

The majority of pubs that have closed down are in the Asian corridors leading out of the city centre due to the fact they don't drink. The people who do drink who live in those areas are predominantly poor and can't afford 3/4pound a pint. That coupled with the price breweries charge landlords in rent etc is killing the trade. Country pubs are also suffering due to the lack of drinkers. Another thing to ruin pubs was the smoking ban, you may as well invite your friends to your house, smoke to your hearts content whilst drinking the 20 bottles of bud you got for a tenner at tesco's.

Score: 19

OLDLAD says...7:46am Tue 12 Aug 14

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.OLDLAD

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

Score: 6

llos25 says...8:17am Tue 12 Aug 14

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .llos25

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

Score: -26

ever the optimist says...8:59am Tue 12 Aug 14

llos25 wrote…

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.

[quote][p][bold]llos25[/bold] wrote:
The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .[/p][/quote]Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.ever the optimist

llos25 wrote…

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.

Score: 20

Bone_idle18 says...9:23am Tue 12 Aug 14

Pubs were closing at a similar rate before the smoking ban. The problem is pubcos, they bought pubs in bulk when the government stepped in to prevent breweries owning to many pubs, instead of making things better, it made it far worse. Pubcos thought they could make a killing by running profitable pubs and selling no probable ones at a large profit, until the property market collapsed, then they were forced to keep a lot of pubs going, charging extortionate rents, hoping the property market would recover. Once that happened they force rents higher to get rid of the Tennant's so they could do what they originally planned and sell the pubs they don't make a profit on.

Pubs were closing at a similar rate before the smoking ban. The problem is pubcos, they bought pubs in bulk when the government stepped in to prevent breweries owning to many pubs, instead of making things better, it made it far worse. Pubcos thought they could make a killing by running profitable pubs and selling no probable ones at a large profit, until the property market collapsed, then they were forced to keep a lot of pubs going, charging extortionate rents, hoping the property market would recover. Once that happened they force rents higher to get rid of the Tennant's so they could do what they originally planned and sell the pubs they don't make a profit on.Bone_idle18

Pubs were closing at a similar rate before the smoking ban. The problem is pubcos, they bought pubs in bulk when the government stepped in to prevent breweries owning to many pubs, instead of making things better, it made it far worse. Pubcos thought they could make a killing by running profitable pubs and selling no probable ones at a large profit, until the property market collapsed, then they were forced to keep a lot of pubs going, charging extortionate rents, hoping the property market would recover. Once that happened they force rents higher to get rid of the Tennant's so they could do what they originally planned and sell the pubs they don't make a profit on.

A bit unfair to highlight the pubs that have closed between Westgate and the BRI. I mean the area is now populated by Muslims, the vast majority of whom don't drink, so why would they want a pub on their door steps? Is Mr Boothroyd suggesting Muslims should be forced to take up the habit or move out and make way for people who do drink? Sometimes I think CAMRA are living in some sort of fantasy world where globalisation never happened. But luckily there are some enterprising people who are opening new pubs like The Fox in Shipley, The Sparrow in Northgate, Saltaire Brewery which turns itself into a pub once a month and many others being refurbished so it's not all doom and gloom. But as someone above said, if you are watching the pennies it's much cheaper to get a DVD and a ten pack of Budd and a packet of fags and sit in front of your 50" LED television in the comfort of your own home.

A bit unfair to highlight the pubs that have closed between Westgate and the BRI. I mean the area is now populated by Muslims, the vast majority of whom don't drink, so why would they want a pub on their door steps? Is Mr Boothroyd suggesting Muslims should be forced to take up the habit or move out and make way for people who do drink? Sometimes I think CAMRA are living in some sort of fantasy world where globalisation never happened. But luckily there are some enterprising people who are opening new pubs like The Fox in Shipley, The Sparrow in Northgate, Saltaire Brewery which turns itself into a pub once a month and many others being refurbished so it's not all doom and gloom. But as someone above said, if you are watching the pennies it's much cheaper to get a DVD and a ten pack of Budd and a packet of fags and sit in front of your 50" LED television in the comfort of your own home.MontyLeMar

A bit unfair to highlight the pubs that have closed between Westgate and the BRI. I mean the area is now populated by Muslims, the vast majority of whom don't drink, so why would they want a pub on their door steps? Is Mr Boothroyd suggesting Muslims should be forced to take up the habit or move out and make way for people who do drink? Sometimes I think CAMRA are living in some sort of fantasy world where globalisation never happened. But luckily there are some enterprising people who are opening new pubs like The Fox in Shipley, The Sparrow in Northgate, Saltaire Brewery which turns itself into a pub once a month and many others being refurbished so it's not all doom and gloom. But as someone above said, if you are watching the pennies it's much cheaper to get a DVD and a ten pack of Budd and a packet of fags and sit in front of your 50" LED television in the comfort of your own home.

Score: 1

Bikerbeardy says...9:50am Tue 12 Aug 14

As already said, Muslim areas no pubs, white areas, plenty of pubs, though saying they dont drink is doubtfull, go up to Dick Hudsons or other "far away from eyes" pubs and you will see muslim youths drinking pints, also Cow n Calf near Ilkley, they know where to drink and not be seen.

As already said, Muslim areas no pubs, white areas, plenty of pubs, though saying they dont drink is doubtfull, go up to Dick Hudsons or other "far away from eyes" pubs and you will see muslim youths drinking pints, also Cow n Calf near Ilkley, they know where to drink and not be seen.Bikerbeardy

As already said, Muslim areas no pubs, white areas, plenty of pubs, though saying they dont drink is doubtfull, go up to Dick Hudsons or other "far away from eyes" pubs and you will see muslim youths drinking pints, also Cow n Calf near Ilkley, they know where to drink and not be seen.

Score: 21

G_Firth says...11:44am Tue 12 Aug 14

Good luck with that one is all I can say when the powers that be want to do to alcohol exactly what they did to tobacco. The UK is rapidly becoming a Big Brother Nanny state. Ho wait it already is.

Good luck with that one is all I can say when the powers that be want to do to alcohol exactly what they did to tobacco.
The UK is rapidly becoming a Big Brother Nanny state.
Ho wait it already is.G_Firth

Good luck with that one is all I can say when the powers that be want to do to alcohol exactly what they did to tobacco. The UK is rapidly becoming a Big Brother Nanny state. Ho wait it already is.

Score: 1

llos25 says...12:28pm Tue 12 Aug 14

ever the optimist wrote…

llos25 wrote…

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.

Absolutely not and your remark is at the best stupid.

[quote][p][bold]ever the optimist[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]llos25[/bold] wrote:
The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .[/p][/quote]Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.[/p][/quote]Absolutely not and your remark is at the best stupid.llos25

ever the optimist wrote…

llos25 wrote…

The fewer pubs there are the better they have had their day selling overpriced poison .

Are you by any chance one of the many bradfordians who disagree with drinking, but agree with the production and distrabution drugs whilst laundering money through icecream shops? I mean common icecream shops in bradford it's freezing 300 days if the year.

Absolutely not and your remark is at the best stupid.

Score: -7

BCFC1911 says...12:37pm Tue 12 Aug 14

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote:
Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?[/p][/quote]The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.BCFC1911

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Score: 3

Albion. says...12:45pm Tue 12 Aug 14

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.

[quote][p][bold]BCFC1911[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote:
Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?[/p][/quote]The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.[/p][/quote]Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.Albion.

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.

Score: 6

BigFigure says...1:26pm Tue 12 Aug 14

Albion. wrote…

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.

Wetherspoons is very much the exception these days. The majority of Pubco chains absolutely hammer their tenants on beer price and rents. One landlady i know was being charged £160 a barrel for a local ale by the Pubco when she could buy the same beer direct from the brewery for only £60. The Pubco would deduct £1000 from her bond for every barrel she bought from any supplier other than them. She had to pass that cost on to her customers and eventually gave up the ghost because she couldn't make a living. The pub closed in January and is still closed....And I've just seen that The Shipley Pride has today been made available from the start of next year....very sad

[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]BCFC1911[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote:
Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?[/p][/quote]The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.[/p][/quote]Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.[/p][/quote]Wetherspoons is very much the exception these days. The majority of Pubco chains absolutely hammer their tenants on beer price and rents. One landlady i know was being charged £160 a barrel for a local ale by the Pubco when she could buy the same beer direct from the brewery for only £60. The Pubco would deduct £1000 from her bond for every barrel she bought from any supplier other than them. She had to pass that cost on to her customers and eventually gave up the ghost because she couldn't make a living. The pub closed in January and is still closed....And I've just seen that The Shipley Pride has today been made available from the start of next year....very sadBigFigure

Albion. wrote…

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Most pubs are part of chains, a chain surely has some buying power. Wetherspoons irrespective of their buying habits, seem to give the majority of pub goers what they want.

Wetherspoons is very much the exception these days. The majority of Pubco chains absolutely hammer their tenants on beer price and rents. One landlady i know was being charged £160 a barrel for a local ale by the Pubco when she could buy the same beer direct from the brewery for only £60. The Pubco would deduct £1000 from her bond for every barrel she bought from any supplier other than them. She had to pass that cost on to her customers and eventually gave up the ghost because she couldn't make a living. The pub closed in January and is still closed....And I've just seen that The Shipley Pride has today been made available from the start of next year....very sad

Score: 7

Papa Smurfs Wig says...2:28pm Tue 12 Aug 14

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Not now, the short dated beer is an old story. They have enough outlets to get the cheapest possible prices but they only do big discounts on certain lines. Today the Queens on Bridge Street was boarded up. Guess who has that? Yes, Enterprise.

[quote][p][bold]BCFC1911[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Albion.[/bold] wrote:
Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?[/p][/quote]The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.[/p][/quote]Not now, the short dated beer is an old story. They have enough outlets to get the cheapest possible prices but they only do big discounts on certain lines.
Today the Queens on Bridge Street was boarded up. Guess who has that? Yes, Enterprise.Papa Smurfs Wig

BCFC1911 wrote…

Albion. wrote…

Times have changed and traditional pubs have declined because of lack of demand or because they are located in an area now populated by non-drinkers. Wetherspoons seem to flourish and often change other businesses into pubs, maybe others might learn from them?

The only reason Wetherspoons does well is because of their buying policy. The buy beer in bulk from the breweries with a very very short shelf life (sometimes just days). Because of the size of their business they can turn it around very very quickly which means they can sell dirt cheap as they buy literally for next to nothing. Obviously pubs etc cannot compete with this.

Not now, the short dated beer is an old story. They have enough outlets to get the cheapest possible prices but they only do big discounts on certain lines. Today the Queens on Bridge Street was boarded up. Guess who has that? Yes, Enterprise.

Score: 3

MontyLeMar says...2:31pm Tue 12 Aug 14

Things are definitely moving in the Pubco world at the moment. Punch Taverns has done a massive and controversial reorganisation and split itself into two companies. One company is called Spirit and is made up of all the profitable pubs of the former group and the unprofitable pubs are now owned by the reorganised Punch Taverns. The idea is that Punch Taverns will now sell off all the unprofitable pubs for whatever they can get for them. Sean Garvey of Garvey Taverns fame has just managed to buy The Albion after years of struggle with Punch for a bargain price I hear and many more pubs will be coming onto the market. Punch are desperate for the money since they are effectively bankrupt having bought a lot of pubs at the height of the market just before the 2008 crash. Enterprise Inns are in a similar state. I think the Pubcos realise that there are no more mugs out there willing to work 80 hour weeks for £10k a year so they will be selling up and more pubs will be turned into businesses and flats. The government would be fools if they listened to CAMRA's appeals. If they did then we'd just end up with more boarded up pubs rotting on the high street.

Things are definitely moving in the Pubco world at the moment. Punch Taverns has done a massive and controversial reorganisation and split itself into two companies. One company is called Spirit and is made up of all the profitable pubs of the former group and the unprofitable pubs are now owned by the reorganised Punch Taverns. The idea is that Punch Taverns will now sell off all the unprofitable pubs for whatever they can get for them. Sean Garvey of Garvey Taverns fame has just managed to buy The Albion after years of struggle with Punch for a bargain price I hear and many more pubs will be coming onto the market. Punch are desperate for the money since they are effectively bankrupt having bought a lot of pubs at the height of the market just before the 2008 crash. Enterprise Inns are in a similar state. I think the Pubcos realise that there are no more mugs out there willing to work 80 hour weeks for £10k a year so they will be selling up and more pubs will be turned into businesses and flats. The government would be fools if they listened to CAMRA's appeals. If they did then we'd just end up with more boarded up pubs rotting on the high street.MontyLeMar

Things are definitely moving in the Pubco world at the moment. Punch Taverns has done a massive and controversial reorganisation and split itself into two companies. One company is called Spirit and is made up of all the profitable pubs of the former group and the unprofitable pubs are now owned by the reorganised Punch Taverns. The idea is that Punch Taverns will now sell off all the unprofitable pubs for whatever they can get for them. Sean Garvey of Garvey Taverns fame has just managed to buy The Albion after years of struggle with Punch for a bargain price I hear and many more pubs will be coming onto the market. Punch are desperate for the money since they are effectively bankrupt having bought a lot of pubs at the height of the market just before the 2008 crash. Enterprise Inns are in a similar state. I think the Pubcos realise that there are no more mugs out there willing to work 80 hour weeks for £10k a year so they will be selling up and more pubs will be turned into businesses and flats. The government would be fools if they listened to CAMRA's appeals. If they did then we'd just end up with more boarded up pubs rotting on the high street.

Score: 2

Papa Smurfs Wig says...2:58pm Tue 12 Aug 14

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

[quote][p][bold]OLDLAD[/bold] wrote:
Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.[/p][/quote]I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade.
Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW!
So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up.
I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.Papa Smurfs Wig

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

Score: 0

basil fawlty says...5:00pm Tue 12 Aug 14

The main concern for me is the loss of potentially profitable pubs simply because planning rules are so slack and the Pub Co's are able to do what they want. This wasn't what the government intended when they forced breweries to sell off pubs and new legislation is required to put things right.

The main concern for me is the loss of potentially profitable pubs simply because planning rules are so slack and the Pub Co's are able to do what they want. This wasn't what the government intended when they forced breweries to sell off pubs and new legislation is required to put things right.basil fawlty

The main concern for me is the loss of potentially profitable pubs simply because planning rules are so slack and the Pub Co's are able to do what they want. This wasn't what the government intended when they forced breweries to sell off pubs and new legislation is required to put things right.

Score: 0

BigFigure says...8:49pm Tue 12 Aug 14

Papa Smurfs Wig wrote…

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.

[quote][p][bold]Papa Smurfs Wig[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]OLDLAD[/bold] wrote:
Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.[/p][/quote]I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade.
Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW!
So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up.
I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.[/p][/quote]Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.BigFigure

Papa Smurfs Wig wrote…

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.

Score: 1

Papa Smurfs Wig says...12:08am Wed 13 Aug 14

BigFigure wrote…

Papa Smurfs Wig wrote…

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.

No bud, my jibe is at the breweries for selling cheap to the supermarkets. If they can sell at 50p for a 440ml can then what are they buying it for if they are really making a profit? We can buy direct from the wholesalers but it is around double what the supermarkets are selling it for. Then the pubco's charge anything up to £2.00 a pint plus VAT. Pubs have overheads and dodgy fees to pay PPL, VPPL or PRS on top. Some places are charging £2.00 a pint just to get custom, some moneybags people sell for £1.50 but they can cover it. The small operator can 't really. It was more than £2.00 a pint in most places over ten years ago and the prices to the pubs have gone up. To make pubs survive the minimum price per unit needs to be 70p.

[quote][p][bold]BigFigure[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Papa Smurfs Wig[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]OLDLAD[/bold] wrote:
Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.[/p][/quote]I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade.
Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW!
So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up.
I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.[/p][/quote]Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.[/p][/quote]No bud, my jibe is at the breweries for selling cheap to the supermarkets. If they can sell at 50p for a 440ml can then what are they buying it for if they are really making a profit? We can buy direct from the wholesalers but it is around double what the supermarkets are selling it for. Then the pubco's charge anything up to £2.00 a pint plus VAT. Pubs have overheads and dodgy fees to pay PPL, VPPL or PRS on top.
Some places are charging £2.00 a pint just to get custom, some moneybags people sell for £1.50 but they can cover it. The small operator can 't really.
It was more than £2.00 a pint in most places over ten years ago and the prices to the pubs have gone up.
To make pubs survive the minimum price per unit needs to be 70p.Papa Smurfs Wig

BigFigure wrote…

Papa Smurfs Wig wrote…

OLDLAD wrote…

Went to the pub for the 1st time in years, bought three pints and it cost more than a tenner. Prices in pubs are ridiculous, just look at cost of a soft drink. I will not be going back to the pub as I just cannot afford a night out in one. Loud music, people drunk before they get there and under staffed bar does not help either.

I think you have missed out Old Lad that we have inflation. Things do go up in price but sometimes pubs are selling pints at a lesser price than over ten years ago. As states above, it is the breweries that are killing their own trade. Now in a simplistic way l'll explain. They are giving supermarkets the booze too cheap, are you with me still? And they are selling to the pubs at too a dearer price. Now when the supermarkets have closed enough pubs by bring far too cheap, they will then whack the price up this meaning you'll wish you had backed the pubs NOW! So all the schmucks will complain in a few years but it'll be too late. People might turn to home brewing but if people show they beed the products to make it then those prices will go up. I'm so surprised that people can't see what is going on.

Re-beer prices...see my comment above. One local brewery sells wholesale at £60 a barrel (56 pints, or just about £1 a pint) but the Pubco which owns many local pubs is then selling on to tenants at up to £160 for that beer( or £2.85 per pint)....not the brewers but the Pubcos at fault. No wonder Old Lad and the rest of us can't afford to sup at so many pubs these days.

No bud, my jibe is at the breweries for selling cheap to the supermarkets. If they can sell at 50p for a 440ml can then what are they buying it for if they are really making a profit? We can buy direct from the wholesalers but it is around double what the supermarkets are selling it for. Then the pubco's charge anything up to £2.00 a pint plus VAT. Pubs have overheads and dodgy fees to pay PPL, VPPL or PRS on top. Some places are charging £2.00 a pint just to get custom, some moneybags people sell for £1.50 but they can cover it. The small operator can 't really. It was more than £2.00 a pint in most places over ten years ago and the prices to the pubs have gone up. To make pubs survive the minimum price per unit needs to be 70p.

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