Very true. Boeing's previous upwards trend has been looking down sincethe end of September. Let's hope Airlines decide to buy themselves and their pax some Boeing made Christmas gifts..and let's hope our friends in DXB give Boeing a piece of the pie!!!

AA1818

“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)

Yes, Boeing has been in real trouble. I mean, sure they are on a record pace this year in terms of sales, but the last few weeks, barely anything, and because this business is such a short term thing, where one month means the end of the world, it's good to see Boeing able to avoid bankruptcy. Airbus was lucky to survive their similar scare a couple months back...

Airbus and Boeing are both on pace to sell more planes than ever. With today's firming (not counting others we don't know about), that's up to 948 Boeing planes in 10 months (I say up to because these might have been UFOs, in whole or part). Up to 433 of them are widebodies. And that's net.

And if Airbus firms even 1/2 their pending orders in December, they'll easily pass 1000, and that's with no new orders announced at Dubai? Airbus could easily do 1100 firm this year, and even 1100 net firm!

And in 2005, their previous best widebody year, they sold 447 net. So they are on pace to break that easily, considering BA and QF are still lagging on firming their 787s which should be done by Dec 31...

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):Presumably the 777F will be replacing some of the older freighters?

Maybe, but if I recall correctly, one of them is for the Brazilian subsidiary ABSA Cargo to handle the growing demand. The other 3 for LAN. By misfortune, seems none of them will fly under Mexican partner MAS Air Cargo livery.

Yes, Boeing has been in real trouble. I mean, sure they are on a record pace this year in terms of sales, but the last few weeks, barely anything, and because this business is such a short term thing, where one month means the end of the world, it's good to see Boeing able to avoid bankruptcy. Airbus was lucky to survive their similar scare a couple months back...

Airbus and Boeing are both on pace to sell more planes than ever. With today's firming (not counting others we don't know about), that's up to 948 Boeing planes in 10 months (I say up to because these might have been UFOs, in whole or part). Up to 433 of them are widebodies. And that's net.

And if Airbus firms even 1/2 their pending orders in December, they'll easily pass 1000, and that's with no new orders announced at Dubai? Airbus could easily do 1100 firm this year, and even 1100 net firm!

I was in no way implying that Boeing were going to go bust or anything like that. It's just after having 3 years of constant success, the boys at Boeing are extremely quiet and reserved ever since the delay was announced. Rightfully so as well. But it's just quite a change to see things at Boeing no bubbling over with excitement. I expect Boeing to continue to be hugely successful. I was more poking fun at the change in 'demeanour' if that's possible for a company!

I hadn't realized so many were new!!! WOW!!! So LAN is poised for some massive expansion presumably!!! hmmm...sounds good for the region, for One World and hopefully us small islands in the Caribbean who would kill for a direct connection to SCL for business!!

How many 767s so they have including those on order?? And how many A340s?

Cheers
AA1818

“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
26+6 787s- wow, I hadn't realized there were so many A343s and 767s to be replaced!!!
Also- how many 767Fs does LAN operate. Presumably the 777F will be replacing some of the older freighters?

The B787s will replace the B763s fleet and A340s. LAN wants to have a single model for longhaul fleet. The B772F are in adition to B763F fleet. One B772F is for ABSA Cargo (Brazil) and others three for LAN Cargo. The first B772F will be delivered in December 2008.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 5):
Is it likely that LA's A340 acft will be replaced by 777 pax acft?

At this moment A343 fleet will be replaced by B789. However LAN is evaluating to order a couple of B777 (B772, B772LR, and B773ER are considered).

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 12):
How many 767s so they have including those on order?? And how many A340s?

The A343 fleet are formed by 4 A340 bought direct to Airbus and 1 leased from ILFC ex AC (actually CC-CQG). Also LAn will lease 3 more A343 (all ex AC) during a short term until the arrival of the B789.

The Boeing B787 will be delivered following according the following schedule:

It seams everyone expects an new order every day. Why not a little patience.
The sooner or later orders from AA, DL, UA (at some point) and the USAF tanker will be bigger than Emirates and Ethidad airlines fleets combined.

What are we looking at, 500 plus aircraft? So how do we presume Boeing is in bad shape.

AA has over 200 MD80's to be replaced.
DL has oer 150 MD80's to be replaced.
The USAF is for well over 100 frames.
AA will need 50 wide bodies.
DL will need 50 wide bodies.

It wouldn't make sense to replace them especially since most of them have recently renovated interiors. Are we looking at major expansion for LAN? Also, will these be just with LAN Chile, or will they go to other airlines in the LAN Group (LAN Argentina, LAN Peru, and LAN Ecuador). This will give those three major expansion opportunities.

That's interesting as it suggests that to get new 787s direct from Boeing you're now looking at 8 years time (that's only my interpretation of the figures as it looks like the 26 are the direct sales and the smaller quantities are from the lessor)

Wow, didn't know that there were already plans to make the 789 ETOPS330, because that is what it'll need for LAN to replace the A343 to operate to AKL. Or route the flight hundreds of miles further north and increase flight lenght by at least 2 hours, certainly not too viable.

Great news for Boeing and LAN. They going to wait along time for them, and when they get them oil might be $300 a barrel.

What does this say about airlines from America, AA, UA, DL who haven't stepped up and ordered new long haul planes in a while. Even if they go A350 , if they wait until 2008 to order they're not going to get any new planes until 20015 or 2016. They may get a few token planes for being large customers,. but they wont get a fleet of them by then.

I would rather fly LAN and their new long haul widebodies when they arrive than an American legacy carrier with 15 or 20 year old 777s.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):It's just after having 3 years of constant success, the boys at Boeing are extremely quiet and reserved ever since the delay was announced.

From a business point of view, I'm sure Boeing realizes this is not a time to be crowing. The delays in the 787 program are embarrassing. What crowing they do will come from new orders for the 787 and they'll also likely take full advantage of opportunities to reveal progress made on getting the 787 into the air and getting production in full swing.

The orders for MD-80 replacements, from the big US airlines, will likely go to Boeing for new 737s. Can American, for example, afford to wait for a 737 replacement to be developed? Incidentally, how high is the 737 replacement on Boeing's agenda?

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 18):Where are you getting these numbers from? LA planes (8) 767-300ERF and have received (8). The 767-300ER... Place (18) orders... Received (8).

I considered all LAN aircraft not the planes bought directly from Boeing Company. And the information of the exactly LAN fleet is from the database of LAN Airlines. So in the next months, LAN Airlines will receive only 4 B763s (Cc-CWY not included there).

Well LAN will have a single fleet for longhaul formed by B787s by 2017. Until then, LAN Airlines operates a mix of B763 and B787s fleet. On cargo operations LAN Airlines will have a fleet formed by 9 B763F and 4 B772F.

Quoting JetSetter629 (Reply 20):Also, will these be just with LAN Chile, or will they go to other airlines in the LAN Group (LAN Argentina, LAN Peru, and LAN Ecuador). This will give those three major expansion opportunities.

The B787s will operates in LAN Chile, LAN Peru, LAN Ecuador and LAN Argentina. Three B772F will be for LAN cargo and one for ABSA Cargo (Brazil).

Not that I doubt you but what are you sources (I'm guessing you have inside sources)? Are you saying that they only 787-9 that they're taking are only going to be leased and all the -8s are direct buys? Thanks

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 27):Well LAN will have a single fleet for longhaul formed by B787s by 2017. Until then, LAN Airlines operates a mix of B763 and B787s fleet.

I'll ask again, what will LAN do to avoid ETOPS issues across the South Pacific if they plan on getting rid of the 4-holers that are currently the only jets they can operate on that route. Simply dropping route can't really be an option, now can it?

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 31):I'll ask again, what will LAN do to avoid ETOPS issues across the South Pacific if they plan on getting rid of the 4-holers that are currently the only jets they can operate on that route.

The FAA have issued an AC for ETOPS operations up to 330 min. Perhaps LAN and the Chilean Airworthiness Authority will be using this document to open up South Pacific routes fro twins.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 22):Wow, didn't know that there were already plans to make the 789 ETOPS330, because that is what it'll need for LAN to replace the A343 to operate to AKL.

777 engine reliability for 330 min ETOPS has already been demonstrated in service. The only modifications needed are to increase the capability of the fire suppression system. This change is relatively easy to apply to new build aircraft or to retrofit to existing ones.

Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis

The order for 26 Dreamliners, consisting of a mix of 787-8s and 787-9s... [...] ...and will lease an additional six 787-9s from International Lease Finance Corp.

Not according with the comunicate not with Boeing and LAN. The 6 B787-9 will be leased from ILFC. Here is the official comunicate of ILFC about LAN 787-9.

LAN LEASES SIX (6) NEW BOEING 787-9 AIRCRAFT FROM ILFC
Century City, CA, JULY 13, 2007 — International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC), a wholly-owned subsidiary of American International Group, Inc. (NYSE: AIG), announced the lease placement of six (6) new Boeing 787-9 aircraft to LAN.

LAN, based in Santiago, Chile will lease six (6) new Boeing 787-9 aircraft from ILFC. The aircraft are scheduled to deliver in 2011, 2012 and 2013. The lease terms are for longer than seven (7) years each.

ILFC is the international market leader in the leasing and remarketing of advanced technology commercial jet aircraft to airlines around the world. ILFC owns a portfolio valued at more than $ 48 billion, consisting of approximately 900 jet aircraft.

American International Group, Inc. (AIG), world leaders in insurance and financial services, is the leading international insurance organization with operations in more than 130 countries and jurisdictions. AIG companies serve commercial, institutional and individual customers through the most extensive worldwide property-casualty and life insurance networks of any insurer. In addition, AIG companies are leading providers of retirement services, financial services and asset management around the world. AIG's common stock is listed in the U.S. on the New York Stock Exchange and ArcaEx, as well as the stock exchanges in London, Paris, Switzerland and Tokyo.

Quoting Raggi (Reply 38):I would also be surprised if GE did not bag this order.

They didn't bag the order. RR did;

Rolls-Royce wins $2.4 bln order from LAN Airlines

LONDON, Nov 21 (Reuters) - British engine maker Rolls-Royce Group Plc (RR.L: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Wednesday the group had received a $2.4 billion order for its Trent 1000 from Chile's LAN Airlines to power a new fleet of up to 41 Boeing 787 Dreamliners.

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 39):
the new B787s will equipped with GE engines

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 39):
Remember that LAN doesn't work with Rolls Royce, they work only GE and Pratt & Whitney.

It is a big suprise even for all LAN. Yes i said that LAN will select GE aircraft because the B787 figures in the database of LAN with General Electric even now, so in the future avoid to put smilies if you don't know.

And yes actually LAN doesn't work with Rolls Royce and only with General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, IAE and CFM.

Well, to be fair with RJ_Delta, I think that it was a "known fact" (well, now wrong) that GE would win this order - many of us underestimated a possibility of a new engine type because LAN usually goes for what is known/proved to work. General Electric seemed the most feasible option as a similar type of aircraft as the 787 was operated already with a GE engine, the 767.

Also, we need to add that LAN's 777F will have GE engines - that would help to think, that the attempt to keep the longhaul fleet Boeing would lead the engine type to be standarized to GE.

All in all, Rolls Royce picking it up is not the surprise here nor LAN going RR instead of GE, as LAN has a firm policy of not staying with just one manufacturer, but swirling around with all of them. That's why LAN has GE CF-6 for the 767s, CFM56 for the A340s, IAE V2500 for the A320/A319s and PW6000 for the A318s.
The most surprising part is that GE let this order go. I don't know why that could be, but I was surprised by it. I thought of GE as a very aggressive/customer loyalty enforcing company.

Clearly, LAN is indicating that engine standarization is not a problem for them.

Congratulations to both Rolls Royce and LAN for the big order!

Gaston - The MD11junkie

[Edited 2007-11-21 06:32:20]

There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!