tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post115820900429121196..comments2015-03-30T23:34:27.453-06:00Comments on Atheist Ethicist: The Ethics of TortureAlonzo Fyfehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05687777216426347054noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-39478841654527325962011-02-13T06:55:26.207-07:002011-02-13T06:55:26.207-07:00Its absolutely imperative for us to recall that we...Its absolutely imperative for us to recall that we are dealing with a a hypothetical scenario that way we dont get carried away,ticking bomb scenario are extremely rare compared to the torture that takes place every day nevertheless it is worthwhile to explore the ramification of legalisation of tortureAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-37971382829855527282009-09-14T22:06:42.316-06:002009-09-14T22:06:42.316-06:00the problem seems to be one of inappropriate guilt...the problem seems to be one of inappropriate guilt. People feel that they have to try EVERYTHING to intervene even up to and including torture even when they KNOW it won&#39;t work. At least they can absolve themselves by saying they tried EVERYTHING. so the solution is probably one of Psychological support and training emphasizing the appropriate limits of one&#39;s responsibility. We all seem to have a touch of the superhero in our thinking.Dr. Clarkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-30596077742191132022009-09-06T03:49:39.766-06:002009-09-06T03:49:39.766-06:00Ah, ok! Thank you for clarifying that.
I think y...Ah, ok! Thank you for clarifying that.<br /><br />I think you&#39;re probably confused on Alonzo&#39;s point, which is why the conclusion didn&#39;t seem to follow from the premises. Generally people think in terms of act-utilitarianism, which states that the action itself is either good or bad.<br /><br />Desire utilitarianism proposes that people always act upon their desires, and therefore we (society) should strengthen good desires and weaken bad desires. The argument proposed in this post outlines the reasons that an aversion to torture is a GOOD desire, and should be strengthened as much as possible. However it also points out that people sometimes have conflicting good desires that can override this aversion (a desire to save lives, for example), and therefore can sometimes be overruled by the stronger desire.<br /><br />Actually, I think this is a good reason to teach interrogaters that torture doesn&#39;t work (and WHY it doesn&#39;t work). That way when they are tempted to use torture to save lives, they will (hopefully) remember that torturing the subject will not actually save any lives, and will probably ending up killing or harming even more people than if they never had used torture at all.<br /><br />But of course that assumes that the interrogators wish to save lives, and not simply fulfill their own revenge fantasies.Eneaszhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14500232958398471146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-3104289435704176202009-09-04T15:27:27.628-06:002009-09-04T15:27:27.628-06:00actually I wrote to the blogger that my High Schoo...actually I wrote to the blogger that my High School students would be posting some thoughts as part of their Leadership and Ethics course. That&#39;s why we are coming from the same area and around the same time. We really enjoy the blog and think it a valuable service.Dr. Clarkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-63125348521750483792009-09-04T15:07:03.966-06:002009-09-04T15:07:03.966-06:00LOL - not quite a similar level of English grammar...LOL - not quite a similar level of English grammar ability, I think. There are at least three different people. It might be better to check if this post was linked from a popular site.Emu Samhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05352556221263050952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-67779912224802979062009-09-04T09:51:43.987-06:002009-09-04T09:51:43.987-06:00Well... that was interesting... how many of those ...Well... that was interesting... how many of those came from the same IP address?Eneasznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-22803153225649943492009-09-04T08:54:12.105-06:002009-09-04T08:54:12.105-06:00Zach and Kayla say that the conclusion does not ma...Zach and Kayla say that the conclusion does not match what the authors opinion says in the rest of his writing. We also believe that the author is not capable of choosing which side of the fence he wants to fall on.Zach and Kaylanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-92117468648824546512009-09-04T08:53:22.622-06:002009-09-04T08:53:22.622-06:00I am concerned that both the blogger and the first...I am concerned that both the blogger and the first comment writer gave strong arguments supporting the immorality of torture but when it came right down to it...when a decision was at hand....they said it was OK as long as you were willing to take the consequences. The arguments hold up well until the situation is real. What&#39;s with that??? If we are to have moral courage it needs to be not just in the theoretical realm but in practice as well.Dr. Clarkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-90193359075692246232009-09-04T08:46:02.303-06:002009-09-04T08:46:02.303-06:00I really agree with the Alliance arguement because...I really agree with the Alliance arguement because you&#39;re getting so much more than if you decided to torture them. By creating an alliance you gain trust, and thats where getting information comes in at.Lakeyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-12173024632202251002009-09-04T08:41:55.152-06:002009-09-04T08:41:55.152-06:00I totally agree with comment 8 because you just ca...I totally agree with comment 8 because you just can&#39;t sit there and let something happen when it could&#39;ve be prevented. The bomb in the school is a justified reason to torture someone that is causing harm to someone else especially innocent kids or students. Torture is illegal but I think this law should be shut down in this case to save lives. The maniac should be tortured mentally before the time gets close and should change to physical torture when the time is close.Jocelynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-58824340864342457942009-09-04T08:38:26.234-06:002009-09-04T08:38:26.234-06:00I agree with the alliance Argument gaining the tru...I agree with the alliance Argument gaining the trust of others in order to get reliable information is very smart. Not only do you get what you want but you could potentially get more.Lynerdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-90218883658238087992009-09-04T08:37:23.742-06:002009-09-04T08:37:23.742-06:00I agree with the alliance Argument gaining the tru...I agree with the alliance Argument gaining the trust of others in order to get reliable information is very smart. Not only do you get what you want but you could potentially get more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-73867571060789242522009-09-04T08:36:17.387-06:002009-09-04T08:36:17.387-06:00I agree with the Alliance Argument because I feel ...I agree with the Alliance Argument because I feel like with this scenario, nobody loses out and it&#39;s a win-win situation in the end while gaining trust from those who help you.Maxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-46602290351256307202009-09-04T08:20:22.497-06:002009-09-04T08:20:22.497-06:00Being thrown in a pool over and over can result in...Being thrown in a pool over and over can result in whip lash, a little water in your lungs, and maybe a little burning in the nose....but out of all this negativity, something positive DOES come out of it as well. After being tossed into 12 ft. depths of water, you really have no other choice but to learn how to swim....Hey, its either that or the alternative....So even in the end, sometimes torture can have its benefits.meshahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15364192990682107505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-2014063758558008072009-09-04T07:30:56.966-06:002009-09-04T07:30:56.966-06:00A metaphor for torture is when my stomach hurts an...A metaphor for torture is when my stomach hurts and I can’t do anything about it because it’s a natural cycle. I toss, turn, and do all I can but the situation is to get wait.<br /><br />For Torture:<br />Argument #1 – Here’s one of a hundred reasons why physical torture is sufficient at this time. Lives, innocent lives, are at stake and there are no other options left to take because the clock is ticking. Plus physical might be more effective.<br /><br />Argument # 2 – This man is already a criminal for attempting to bomb a building so why not add a little punishment along with getting information out of him? When they throw him in jail, he will receive it anyway.<br /><br />Argument # 3 – According to Wikipedia, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession. [So, your intentions are not to kill him, since killing is wrong, but get information.]<br /> <br />Arguments #4 – Just think for a minute. If you didn’t do anything I’m sure your conscience will catch up with you. Innocent children’s blood will be on your hands for not trying to stop the bomber.<br /><br />Against Torture:<br />Argument #1 – Instead of physical torture, try mental because the mind is a powerful thing. For example threaten him, threaten his family or put a chainsaw to his head, swinging it back and forth. That way you won’t cause any blood shed. <br /><br />Argument #2 – If this is reality, it’s possible for you to go get charged for attempted murder or assault. Even though this might seem like the right thing to do, criminal laws still apply. <br /><br />Conclusion – Well this might be a gruesome thing to do, but I decided that I might have to cut a few fingers off to save these kids. Mentally, it will be torture for me but it’s a sacrifice.Brittanyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00822112241156389753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-25551379486223575172009-09-04T07:27:37.940-06:002009-09-04T07:27:37.940-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brittanyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00822112241156389753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16594468.post-1158697865053337602006-09-19T14:31:00.000-06:002006-09-19T14:31:00.000-06:00Hmmm. It seems to me that there is an easier way ...Hmmm. It seems to me that there is an easier way to get to the immorality of torture than through Desire Utilitarianism. The argument could run like this:<BR/><BR/>1. Human beings are selfish egoists who care only about themselves and their approved group and want first-and-foremost to promote their own interests. <BR/>Note that this statement is a verifiable fact of human psychology, even though it might not at first appear to be correct.<BR/><BR/>2. When two or more humans formulate and pursue their egoistic interests, the potential for conflict and interference with others' interests, including being harmed or causing harm, is extremely high. <BR/><BR/>3. Given (2), it is in the interests of every individual to find some method to minimize this problem. Doing so maximizes their opportunities to promote their interests with as little interference as possible.<BR/><BR/>4. Accepting a voluntary limitation on one's actions which allows for cooperative compromise can ensure that all involved get most of their interests met, which is the best outcome one can reasonbly expect in a competition of interests situation.<BR/><BR/>5. The most important interest most individuals have is the interest not to be unjustly harmed or killed by others, in large part because harm or death limits the other interests one can formulate and pursue. <BR/><BR/>6. Harming X via torture so that Y can pursue his own or his group's interests in having information or stopping harm to him- or themselves seriously interferes with X's interests just as much as if Y had beaten up X to steal her wallet. <BR/><BR/>7. If (6) is true, then this will remain the case whether Y is one person with interests or his group has 1000 members with these interests or 10 million.<BR/><BR/>8. Therefore, it is wrong to torture anyone in order to promote another's or 10 million others' interests unless we have strong justification to do so.<BR/><BR/>What justification could override this except for the massive number of people affected and harm created that the Utilitarians point to? I can't think of any. Until one can come up with that, torture must remain immoral.<BR/><BR/>Of course we could also discuss the immorality of torture from a Deontological (duty-based) perspective, or from Virtue Ethics (this isn't the type of people we want to be), but these take more time and space than the above.Another Athiest Ethicistnoreply@blogger.com