- If Jagr not being able to lead a 1.5 or two-line team to Cups is being used against him, if the formula of "career points + Cups" is being used to determine success, then Carlyle not making it out of the first round very often is being used against him too. Why should I have to use context?

Touche haha.

Jagr's exit and off ice will always play a part in it. He was spectacular while here though, but it all wound up working out in the end.

- If Jagr not being able to lead a 1.5 or two-line team to Cups is being used against him, if the formula of "career points + Cups" is being used to determine success, then Carlyle not making it out of the first round very often is being used against him too. Why should I have to use context?

I wasn't born for 3 more years so I don't know. His highlights looked really cool and I heard he liked Pittsburgh.

Is it possible that aliens tried to communicate with us by walking amongst us and participating in daily human life? Were these super-humans actually, not human at all. But extraterrestrial beings, who visited us?

The speed with which the team collapsed, and the size of the drop-off they suffered, when Jagr was traded ought to say something about how good he was as a Penguin. He carried some obviously bad clubs to the playoffs basically single-handedly. People seem to be underestimating his impact.

Bioshock wrote:In my mind, there is still a huge gap between Jagr and Crosby.

Crosby has played about a third of the games. Also has a higher PPG average but needs to play a long, long time to catch Jagr.

Careful,

This is best Penguin. Not career. Crosby should beat most of all of Jagr's career Penguin stats, but most likely not all his career stats.

I get what you are saying but even so, Crosby just hasn't played nearly enough. If the gap in games was closer, in my mind i could justify it but the gap is just so huge that i need to see more. If Crosby is healthy for another 4 years while producing at 1.5 PPG and doesn't have another goofy injury, then i'll give it to ya.

I just remember Jagr in his prime... dude was just on another planet. Crosby is currently on that planet but Jagr did it for a lot longer. Maybe too long since his PPG has dipped to 1.21.

mikey287 wrote:Lemieux is in that tier that's above everyone in hockey history ever (with Gretzky, Howe and Orr)...there's a clear and obvious divide between #4 and #5 all-time, it's extremely tough to even get up near there much less make room for a fifth guy on that plateau. He would really have to get a move on if he wants to be in that territory...really quick...that's a hell of a tall order to fill...

I don't think there is much doubt that Crosby will be in that tier when all is said and done. As it is now, his career points per game is behind only 99, 66 and Bossy, while just ahead of Orr. He is still on the upswing of each season being greater ppg than the prior - it won't last forever - but it stands to carry him into the discussion. Others at the top - Messier, Francis, and even Howe, got there by playing an awful lot of games (>1700), finishing with less than 1.1ppg.

The other avenue would be to become the third player to average over an assist per game - Gretzky 1.320 and Lemieux 1.128 - Crosby is presently at .911, which is at least a tenth higher than anyone else in the top 50 in assists, with P. Stastny and Coffey closest at .807, with Oates at .805. (Orr, at .982 apg, 3rd best all time, is 60th on the assist list) Though, that may be tall order, as he is 41 assists below 1.0, and only on a 1.25 apg pace right now - that would only gain 12 assists on that mark over 48 games, but is over a 100 assist pace for 82 games. Similarly, he's 9 points under 2.0ppg for the current season, with 20 games left. Would have to finish near 2.5ppg for the final 20 games to make that up. I'd love to see his drive if he got close to that - he's closed strong late in seasons in the past, and has had extended streaks of over 2.0ppg (including 8 games of 2.5) over the course of this season.

I got sidetracked with respect to the topic at hand. If one can distinguish between the most complete player (87) vs the best player (66) vs contribution to the team (66-68-87-10-71). It's a hell of a blessing to be able to have such debates.