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I prefer not to be in these discussions about who has it and who doesn't. As soon as you grab someone who has a little of it, you will know:

a) Your neck usually snaps in a crazy whiplash-style motion
b) You feel like you fell into a vortex
c) The person doing the aiki can decide if you feel pain or just throw
d) If they decide on the pain, you will probably(very politely) ask them never to do it again
e) You balance is swept out from under you in a variety of different directions instantaniously.

If those things aren't happening, its a different type of technique. Not a bad one, just a different one.

Oh, also, the person doing the technique is relaxed, very soft, and not expending energy.

Be well,

Howard

Hmmm ... well, when you were down here for the seminar, if I remember correctly, you weren't very relaxed, you felt muscular, and you wasted a lot of energy. Er, wait, no, that was me. LOL! I don't think I had enough beer.

William
I don’t know of anyone in California training this way. I know of one teacher who possesses some real skills, but I watched him “not teach” whole rooms full of people dozens of times. His students clearly express his ‘not teaching” teaching. Most of whom probably are convinced they ‘got it” too.

Thank you for answering my question in general. It only took a half dozen requests or so. Of course in keeping with your current meme mentioning a teacher by name is not your style.

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In keeping within the goals of the thread-why not ask the many who have gone to test those who train this way?

I have thank you.

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I see no value in giving details-which are usually debated ad nauseum and are just more grist for the mill, when I see dozens of people here already bearing witness to the fact that while they thought they "got it" from aikido-and could do these things or have them in their version of Aikido™, just like you do-they didn't.
With very few exceptions-all I have met have thought they were doing these things too and then had to retract that statement. None, meaning no...one had anything even remotely resembling these levels of skills. Further they have openly stated while they felt things like it from their own teachers they remain convinced their own teachers would never stand a chance against the level of skill tested against the developed skills they felt from us amateurs. So why the debate and rehashing of requests and descriptions? For what purpose? It’s just more of the same to me. Give it a rest.
In light of all the conversations and witness accounts, going back to debating Rob, Mike or me, and asking for more descriptions and details, while also claiming you do them in your dojos is starting to sound rather silly-even desperate.

Again (ad infinitum) I don't doubt your skills just your assumptions. Though your skills are rare and the training maybe revolutionary in nature ( by the way is someone getting back to getting back to Chris Li's point about dilution in Daito Ryu?) There are some in Aikido who exhibit that kind of "power" You may think because I have not experianced you personally or those who post here with those skills That I have not experianced them at all. With your habit of not citing facts or naming names regarding your own experiance I will just have to take you at your word and ignore that fact that this is the web and it may require more than just ones opinion however valid that opinion maybe.

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Now two years out and with hands on instruction and much detailed teaching those who have started to train this way are just starting to see changes in their bodies and practice. Continue monitoring and asking them, as I had hoped you would be doing in this thread. In the near future try to go learn from them. You will be behind and probably kicking yourself for not getting out earlier, but at least start! These people are going to become a new force in the arts.

Thanks..I plan on doing so. Folks like Nathan Scott, Obata Shihan, James Williams and Yoshida Shihan are all availible to me. There are some DR teachers in LA who may be good, and on the Chinese side this being LA I am sure that Mike may know of a few Chinese IMA folks too...

Folks like you just simply need to post names and thier expert opinions on skillsets of these teachers. I have only been asking you directly for over a year now.

I have meet quite a few people here and showing up or having visitors teach a class or keeping an open mind is not a problem. Our Aikido encourages 'crossbreeding" and we have experianced quite a bit over the years It also give us a chance to show what our Aikido is all about too.

Then maybe you want to enlighten us on "what" is so simple about it.
It is simple, but it isn't at the same time, in fact this stuff gets pretty complex when you get down to it. For someone to say that it's "that simple" smacks of just not having gotten around enough to feel anyone with actual skill

Well, I could say it is that simple because you said it is in your post. It is as complicated as you want it to be. What is so simple about it? Well, take tenkan for instance, if one stops trying to defeat uke, trying to move uke, and just turns with the attack, that's all there is to it.

I have been around to a number of people in a number of dojos, probably more than most, I think. I traveled around the U.S. for 3 months visiting many, many dojos. During my time in the Navy, I practiced in dojos in different countries, too. I spent a few years training at a great dojo in the states, and some here in Japan. Actual skill? I would have to be self-centered and self-absorbed to NOT realize that there are so many, many people who train in Aikido so diligently, seriously, thoroughly, and are damn good. What I've learned is that no one is special,including me, that has any special skills that will replace hard work, continuous training, and diligent study.

"Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere." Morihei Ueshiba

I assume you attended the Seattle seminar?
For clarification, did you feel any difference between Ark/Rob and the participants? What sensations did you feel when you had the opportunity to touch any of the attendees or Ark/Rob? What exactly do you mean by solid?

Ark isn't exactly a huge guy. He weighs about 140lbs soaking wet!
Sure, technique is involved to a small extent, no one said zero technique happens, but it's more a result of a a trained skill in the body. So clearly when he does some of the demos with people who are coming up on double his weight, for example shiko (think sumo squat/stomps) with someone double his weight on his back something other than musculature or leverage must be going on.
QUOTE]

Yes, Seattle. Yes, Rob and Ark felt different from the participants. I played with Jeremey and Chris a bit and they felt sort of in between Ark and some of the other folks. Sensations and solid - I'm not good at describing this. But if I try to move someone and I either bounce off or it feels like I'm pushing on a wall then something is happening that is different from them redirecting my force or moving out of the way.

I was impressed with many things about the seminar, the least with the "feats of awesomeness". In my opinion many of those were really well done uses of leverage, and no I'm not claiming I can do them. I think I understood enough about some of them to not be awestruck. Impressed, yes, they are good tricks. I left thinking people underestimated how much technique was involved in the tricks.

I assume it is just a different "level" of technique.
It is a technique to hold your mental intentions such that you stabilize pushes and lift up people pushing on you without anything obviously moving.

What I've learned is that no one is special,including me, that has any special skills that will replace hard work, continuous training, and diligent study.

"Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere." Morihei Ueshiba

"The wall of mystery is only in your head."

I think you're wrong-but you may be content with what your are trying to find. Working hard means nothing, and won't bring you much if it is working in the wrong direction.

You might want to seriously re-read the many posts of others who thought exactly the same as you, and consider setting out a series of questions to ask yourself.
Like
1. Who are all these people?
2. Who have these epople felt and trained under?
3. Have they been all over like me?
4. Did they think like me?
5. Why are they now on the other side of the equation and all traiing this way after some of them only feeling it once or twice?
6. What could have caused so many to change their direction or views?
7. Am I missing something in the direction I am heading in?
8. Should I consider the witness of these experienced men and be searching in that direction?
These are good questions to ask in light of so much positive feedback.

Hey, I don't care. No sweat off my back. It just seems that even a halfwit (no not you) who was interested in learning Aikido™ might think twice when seeing so many twenty to thirty year Aikido™ men stopping and re-thinking their training method from some slight exposure to Aiki...do.
When I first felt it 18 yrs ago, I quit Aikido™ on the spot and pursued the way of Aiki...do ever since. It seems these men writing in here from Aikido™ are hell bent on bringing more Aiki...do, back into their Aikido™. I think that's a good thing.

.... It takes a certain level to be able to really appreciate *how* good someone/something is, even in person. I really hope you don't take that as a dig at you, but more of a confirmation of what you were saying.

... We've met a couple times and plan to get together more as our schedules permit. Again, that's not to diminish you (or him!) or what you're saying here, but if anything, to confirm what you're getting at.

... /shameless plug off

Yes, I think you got what I was trying to say. I'm glad you and him got together. Lots of stuff from Mr. Popkin's seminar came back to our classes. We get a fair amount of push hands and Tai Chi influence also.

I was impressed with many things about the seminar, the least with the "feats of awesomeness". In my opinion many of those were really well done uses of leverage, and no I'm not claiming I can do them. I think I understood enough about some of them to not be awestruck. Impressed, yes, they are good tricks. I left thinking people underestimated how much technique was involved in the tricks.

Hey Mark, at least your honest about your thoughts, and I think it'll get your pretty far really fast
As far as the "well don uses of leverage", in one sense it is, but in another sense it isn't. Give it another two years or constant training and you'll probably understand how it's done. It actually is "pretty awesome" once you can do it yourself.

When I do rowing, my intention is going opposite of my physical movement.

When I do any of the standing while trunk twisting warm-ups, I keep my spine in the middle and my hips and nose continue to point the same direction while I move my upper trunk around my spine by accessing "windings" from my opposite thighs and/or feet.

When I do undefuri (no idea if that is romanized correctly - the one where your arms are out like a helicopter and you do 180 degree spins). I now work the "upper cross" while I do it (and some of the trunk windings as well). Same for some ushiro tekubitori kokyunages when my grabbed hand starts out below my belt.

I practice "aiki-age" during ushiro tekubitori kokyunages when my grabbed hand starts out above my belt. (Think instant ikkyo effect on the initial grab with no movement that I am aware of on my part.)

When I am grabbed katatetori, I practice "center on contact" using good structure/intentions and the "trunk windings around the spine" (a.k.a"central pivot").

I'm not good enough to go into much useful detail. My opinion is that even Dan and Mike's words will be empty unless you feel it directly yourself.

When I am grabbed katatetori, I practice "center on contact" using good structure/intentions and the "trunk windings around the spine" (a.k.a"central pivot").

We practiced juji tonight with the bokken and then moved into the same with ikkyo, and then sankyo just for some osae work. The opening was with yokote engaged. If the blades remain parallel it is ai-uchi -- and uchitachi has no incentive to stay without the dominant line. But if the line is left slightly open, by letting the tsuka drift one side while the kissaki drifts opposite and musubi is maintained, then uchitachi has what appears to be a dominant line. It is the position that uchitachi would have placed you in to clear the line to enter for tsuki or tegiri. It is, of course -- a lie.

Where is juji, you ask? Simple. The kissaki in chudan is at 12 o'clock relative to the tsuka. If uchitachi did what he wanted -he would reorient my kissaki to the 3 o'clock position (my perspective) opening the line. But if I am already in the 3'oclock position I am in juji -- 90 degrees phase difference -- which creates a resonant relationship between the two dynamics as they are engaged.

Now where is the aiki ? When he moves in (or I move in, same thing: 90 degrees phase difference makes sente essentially irrelevant) I slightly center both the kissaki and the tsuka using the same "winding" projected from my center through the tsuka and out the end of the blade. His blade ends up off my left sleeve and mine is in his throat

Now I can do the same thing with far less gross movement of the blade, and while appearing to remain parallel and in ai-uchi relation. It is "internal" in the sense that the reorientation occurs inside the point of engagement, and transmitting the "winding" is not directly apparent to the opponent, because it is oriented perpendicularly (spatially and temporally). It is adopting the form in initial "static" structure that the "winding" would drive dynamically -- i.e. -- they are really not different at all. The entry and the "winding" happen together, i.e -- it is irimi-tenkan.

Then we examined the same principle substituting the use of tegatana in ikkyo -- centering on contact, and the same reorientation of the arm maintaining tegatana) from 12 to 3 ( or vice versa depending) (closing the waki as is very often the case in techniques demonstrated to ushiro tekubitori.)

Sounds like you and I at least are on the same page Erick. I don't want to mis-represent Dan here. He takes this stuff way beyond where I have tried to tie in to some basic warm ups and waza I would normally otherwise be somewhat "sleeping" through.

I showed Dan how I normally handled ushiro ryotetori, and he very kindly showed me how I didn't need to play wristy-twisty aikido games - and instead showed me this level of a more internally powered/structured approach (I am quite sure he has several levels beyond that). I really liked it because it blew my mind. It broke many of the "rules" I taught my own students in the past - like avoid letting someone grab you on a 90 degree angle (where they can face you and you cannot face them). Things like that stopped mattering (_so much_ for my skill level),

I love things like that that blow my mind and make me totally re-evaluate my "rules". In a mythological sense, Dan represents an aikido "monster" who I have to grow to deal with.

But please remember the source here. I'm a relatively new yondan (so fairly strong sandan) which puts me at generally solid with okay harmonizing skills - and I can only speak to these aiki skills applied to aikido as a total "aiki...do" beginner.

My opinion is you get a much better feel for this stuff when you apply it outside of aikido waza (where I'm less "comfortable").
Rob

You might want to seriously re-read the many posts of others who thought exactly the same as you, and consider setting out a series of questions to ask yourself.

Like
1. Who are all these people?
2. Who have these epople felt and trained under?
3. Have they been all over like me?
4. Did they think like me?
5. Why are they now on the other side of the equation and all traiing this way after some of them only feeling it once or twice?
6. What could have caused so many to change their direction or views?
7. Am I missing something in the direction I am heading in?
8. Should I consider the witness of these experienced men and be searching in that direction?
These are good questions to ask in light of so much positive feedback.

Sounds like you and I at least are on the same page Erick.... I showed Dan how I normally handled ushiro ryotetori, and he very kindly showed me how I didn't need to play wristy-twisty aikido games ... broke many of the "rules" I taught my own students in the past - like avoid letting someone grab you on a 90 degree angle (where they can face you and you cannot face them).

I gathered the last from what you wrote, which was why, as it happened, I thought I would mention what we had just practiced -- where and how juji (90 degree orientation) can come up in ways that one doesn't necessarily see unless you are looking for it.

It is spatial (of which the sword exercise I described is one example) -- but also temporal, maai understood as interval -- a sine wave (spiral actually, but the same math applies). It applies to orientation in time as well as distance, but not merely who is first or last, closest or farthest away. If the spiral action is viewed as seeing that the opponent is screwed juji represents a quarter turn of the screw, (and this is the important part -- or any odd number multiple thereof. -- i.e.- 270 works as well, but not zero and definitely not 180). When Ikeda twitch-drops Joe Linebacker this is what he does -- really low amplitude -- REALLY HIGH angular velocity (m/2 *v^2), but that precise an interval at that short, fast period is (obviously) the product of much refinement, and he can do another multiple of the resonance interval in quick succession (like the whoop-de-do progressive sumi-otoshi, in miniature. Crack -- then shatter. (There is also a frequency issue here, but that is still only suggestive on my part) But I know where I am headed, in any event, with some idea how to get there.

As Chesterton said about falling (in a different context) -- there is only one angle at which we stand upright -- and every other angle is falling away. The same is true of dealing with the antagonistic force of gravity as with the antagonistic force of an opponent. With respect to gravity, 180 phase would be resisting gravity with counter-thrust thereby lifting into the air. I don't know about you but I have no rockets in my heels, and when I jump I fall back again. So this is not an option, "pushing back" or "pushing away" accomplishes net of zero and is doomed to failure by simple exhaustion if nothing else. 0/360 phase would be surrendering completely to the fall. The orientation to the attack must be similar, neither pushing back nor running away.

If I stay upright, keep juji, spatially, temporally, with respect to gravity AND the attack, because there is only one set of angles available with that quality (three space planes and one of time), and I occupy them with respect to both gravity and the attack, by definition he cannot -- and he is therefore "falling away." Conversely, if I do not occupy it he has little he needs to to do as I am already "falling away."

Seeing what juji is in any given interaction is a fascinating exercise.
Most people looking at attacks are looking at positive versus negative, 0 phase and 180 phase, in versus yo and therefore the largest input or the earliest input "wins" or dominates the interaction. But if looked at and worked on from sideways, it doesn't work out that way. Phase difference really does work, and ahead or behind, a resonance interval (90 degrees offset, in time or space) royally screws up the input signal (attack). In military terms, the same principle operates in flanking action.

It leads to his attack momentum departing the stability limit of the structure that directs it, causing a buckling gyration in that structure (the mass of structure "trying" or "dragged" to follow the momentum path to recover it within the structural stability path, but consequently destroying the stability path progressively throughout the structure. (The head "snap" thing is this in action, and is actually very dangerous for an unprepared uke, because it can induce a whiplash injury very easily if done with too much energy.)

It also causes a discontinuity in the momentum (structure suddenly lagging instead of locked to momentum) which reverses the attack phase from the 0 to 180 or vice versa (and therefore the shifts the center of rotation -- or "statically," it shifts the center of the perceived moment).

The bio-mechanical aspect on involuntary reflexive action that may occur when this happens, (or when it happens in a proper way) is not trivial, in my opinion, but that is an area I am still exploring.

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Rob Liberti wrote:

My opinion is you get a much better feel for this stuff when you apply it outside of aikido waza (where I'm less "comfortable").

I generally end class with a waza that I had in mind to begin it, after we have explored various elements of the interaction in "that" waza in isolation (which of course in a contingent real encounter -- "that" element of interaction may not lead to "that" waza at all. I usually do not do them in the order of progression of the waza. It is distinctly not linear.

We explore branch points that flow from each element, that do not lead to the waza I had in mind to begin with. The implicit atemi can be made explicit. The danger roads to kaeshi-waza can be noted to avoid (or exploit). The focus is on the reality of each immediate interaction -- not some pre-defined endpoint so it keeps both uke and nage honest in the immediate interaction. I typically do not mention for the class what the waza is that I am constructing with them and we just end up there at the end. It is a way to stay true to the received set of waza as valid "captured" studies in the principles (like a 4d recording), (and for their testing), without being them becoming bound to a given progression of interactions or events, so as to get caught in the kata trap.

Great questions -- they are called "rhetorical questions" for a reason. -- they are great examples of a rhetorical trick and the logical fallacy called "ad populum." Rhetoric is not argument.

Dan seems to persuade people he meets, whether he does so with real points of substantive difference from the aiki in aikido training that we know, a gifted insight into that training that many have simply missed, or merely with charisma, charm and a talent with magician's arts, none of it is proved by that.

The fact that he has persuaded others should not persuade you, as it is not objective evidence, but a logical fallacy to believe that because other people believe it -- it must therefore be true. I was taught that the earth goes round the sun, but I believe it -- not because those who taught me believed it -- but because it conforms in all points to the objective reality of its effects, which I can see for myself.

People are believing the earth is overheating -- when it hasn't warmed for 11 years and the oceans haven't warmed at all. Yet people believe it because other people believe it -- and for no other reason.

We are entering a new age of superstition -- perversely, a technological age of superstition, so I cannot idly let things like that pass by without comment.

Which is not meant to offend Dan in the least. I have reason no doubt that he is talented, just that one should not accept THAT rhetoric being offered as valid argument for any points of his program -- because it isn't.

Not in any order or comprehensive, but Erick, William, Ignatius, etc. Well, you're getting kind of off topic. Can we go back to topic? There are countless threads discussing how to, definition, etc in other places.

Not in any order or comprehensive, but Erick, William, Ignatius, etc. Well, you're getting kind of off topic. Can we go back to topic? There are countless threads discussing how to, definition, etc in other places.

Don't see any reason for apologies, William. Threads drift. We all are culprits at some point in time. If we said sorry every time, I think that's all we'd get time to say. It'd be gomen and sumimasen everywhere and then we'd get confused and think we're in Japan. Ooops, sorry, I got off topic.

I just thought Dan's post and idea for this thread is interesting, so I'd like to keep it going. (As an aside, I think Ron's thread of long vs short road is interesting, too.)

I am interested in what would persuade you Erick? For me I have to go visit the person myself. One touch and I know whether I need to stay for the rest of the class and explore further. If he were selling snake oil I would have posted that because I LOVE aikido and I REALLY HATE people who sell snake oil in aikido's name because I had a bit of my life energy (almost completely) wasted when I was much younger.

If someone I find reasonably informed and has a credible background has been persuaded of something I'm willing to re-consider my views and open myself up to the possibilities. I believe that was what Dan was looking to find out - have other people re-considered their ideas at all given the spread of "trust" / "witness" growing in this aikiweb community.

As an aside, that has been the majority of what Gleason sensei teaches. Never to get too comfortable with what you think yo know. That's not going to make him extremely popular but so be it. He'll sweep the rug out from underneath me as often as I can handle. (Got to love that.) Obviously, not a lot of people are trained that way - and many run screaming from such things, so my expectations are a bit low unless people start getting hands on.

Dan seems to persuade people he meets, whether he does so with real points of substantive difference from the aiki in aikido training that we know, a gifted insight into that training that many have simply missed, or merely with charisma, charm and a talent with magician's arts, none of it is proved by that.

Erik
Over the years your arguments have been all over the map. From Mike, Ark and I being wrong to you knwoing what we do and that you could explain it to later admitting you could not do many of the tests we described but you know what it is in physical terms.
Now you are stating once again that I am doing "aiki from outside aikido training that you all know.
er...whhaat?

Then, you go on to to take those to task who have all stated their own training experiences and are doubting their own ability to judge!!
That's astounding.
Asking everyone to doubt the witness of yudansha, up to 6th dan and many teachers in aikido and telling us to write their experiences off as charisma, charm and magicians arts.

Be that as it may, this is some of the input I was asking for. Being that it is so transparent- I thank you for putting it in writing.