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Erard were together with Pleyel, also in Paris, and with John Broadwood & Sons the most successfull pianos in the time 1820 to 1865.

In the mid of the 19th century european concert pianists - travelling to the U.S. - took with them preferably these french brands; Erard, or Pleyel..

After the Paris world exhibition 1867 the star of Erard and Pleyel began to sink compared with the "systéme americain", i.e. Steinway. The french companies stayed too long with the "cast iron condemnation" and with the concept of straigt stringing.

But every piano aficionado should bear in mind that the technical concepts of the very first Steinway grands was derived (..for not to say a copy..) from the Erard grands. The Steinway men themselves told it secretly: You can see it at the characteristical curvature of the wood besides the keyboard - the "vee" cut which is found in same manner at the Erard grands, the Steinweg grands and Grotrian grands in Brunswick - and at the "fancy" concert grands of Steinway until 1875.

This "vee cut" was a (hidden) reverence to the parisian masters who gave father Henry and sons Charles and Henry jr. the basic concept for their first grands. Erard grands used a very flexible concept to stretch the lenghts. Mr. Henry sr. recognized this - and took the basic idea, to make it better and better, speeding up fast.

Steady improvements, an ambition "to build the best piano possible" - the Steinway motto. Basic steps were the one-piece-cast frame, the overstrung bass and several inventions related to the mechanism, ending with the capstan screw and the fully covered pinblock at concert grands in 1875 - the birth of the modern concert piano. Maybe add the rim case from 1878 with the glued maple leaf strips. All these inventions made the quality gap between Erard, Pleyel on the one side, and Steinway on the other side deeper. The french stood still, adoring the "old" grands in use by Chopin et cetera, and the Steinway grands moved forward, fast.

So with every Steinway grand also today there is a minuscule DNA heritance of the former famous Erard grands. Even if nearly nobody knows this fact. If you see an old Pleyel or Erard, think of these facts and do a shy bending of your head,obey the reverencee, they were the grand-grand-grand-fathers of every modern grand. ;-)

At any time around the turn of the centuries the french piano makers overthought their condemnation against overstringing. But piano business in Europe was gone to the germans. Business in overseas (seen from Europe, I am european ;-)) was occupied by Steinway, Mason and Hamlin, Chas. Stieff, et cetera.

Erard and Pleyel never again gained back their old huge reputation. Business was slow, and at any time there were mergers and acquisitions, also with the Gaveau brand, all these now in the hands of Schimmel if I remember correctly.

If you go to soutehrn England, visit the Hurstwood farm. There you'll meet one of the two known pianos for which the personal use of Frederic Chopin is known. A Pleyel concert grand - not loud (the one and only disadvantage) but of such a rich offer of piano sound colours, which makes this super old grand from 1840 still one of the ever best pianos built.

At that time they were in heavy experimentations with the hammer layout, Mr. Henri Pape et cetera. Pinao hammers of that ancient time concisted of up to nine (!!!) layers of deer leather, lamb wool & felt, and rabbit fur. (BTW These inventions were condemned by the Steinway men.. for their prime aim: to build a LOUD grand whose sound is able to fill Carnegie Hall..) ;-) A suspicion is told that the relevant Steinway technicians all together had hearing problems (told in the book of Susan Goldenberg?).

The richness and colour palette of ancient Pleyel and Erard grands were lost a bit - hopefully not forever. But to dig out these gems-of-sound would be a lot of work and experimentation.

Please whenever you have the chance to hear an old Erard fortepiano or a Pleyel grand with "another" type of sound - check if it offers "sound colour"..

At that time they were in heavy experimentations with the hammer layout, Mr. Henri Pape et cetera. Pinao hammers of that ancient time concisted of up to nine (!!!) layers of deer leather, lamb wool & felt, and rabbit fur. (BTW These inventions were condemned by the Steinway men.. for their prime aim: to build a LOUD grand whose sound is able to fill Carnegie Hall..) ;-) A suspicion is told that the relevant Steinway technicians all together had hearing problems (told in the book of Susan Goldenberg?).

They may well have been. Factories were/are noisy places and people back then were even more blasé about hearing protection than they are now.

It is difficult for many factory voicers to tell just what the pianos they produce will sound like in the ultimate owner’s auditorium or home. It is common to see voicing rooms loaded with acoustical foam. Unfortunately the sound absorbing qualities of this foam is not linear across the audio spectrum; it is much more effective at absorbing sound energy at higher frequencies than at lower frequencies. Hence a piano that is voiced to sound reasonably bright in the voicing room is going to sound unnaturally bright—indeed, harsh and strident—when placed in a room with more “normal” acoustics.

I have observed factory voicers adding chemical hardeners to already very dense hammers (Renner Blue) to “bring the piano up” when I knew well that the pianos were already so bright and strident it was going to be difficult—later on in a showroom or home—to make the poor things sound even remotely musical. When I bring this up the standard answers are, “Oh, pianos have to be ‘bright’ for the ___(fill in the blank)___ market.” Or, “our dealers want them to sound bright.”

The richness and colour palette of ancient Pleyel and Erard grands were lost a bit - hopefully not forever. But to dig out these gems-of-sound would be a lot of work and experimentation.

Well, perhaps not all that much. We know how to produce these types of sounds; what is lacking is the will and the desire.

This is a question that has long puzzled me; why are no modern manufacturers even trying? We live in an increasingly diverse world. The piano market is not exactly thriving and yet no one seems to be interested in even trying to explore new (or old, for that) markets. “New” pianos are introduced that are, at best, rehashes of pianos just like those every other manufacturer is producing. They all look pretty much like every other piano of similar size. And their sound, while it may be a little more this or that, is also very similar.

It would not be all that difficult to produce a modern version of a flat-strung Erard. It might not sound exactly like its 150 year old predecessors but it could be pretty close. Close enough to capture the essence of the music that was composed on the originals. At least it would be if the developer could resist the temptation to give it enough power to fill Carnegie Hall and concentrate on how it would sound in a smaller, more intimate music room.

It would not be all that difficult to produce a modern version of a flat-strung Erard.

Maybe not difficult but the cost of producing an Erard or Pleyel from 1840's is about x3 times more expensive than producing an steinway. (More expensive materials, more time to produce and less strong materials) Rabbit fur hammers were very weak (maybe they had a lifetime of 10-20 years) but the color is exquisite... The result is in my opinion x3 times better in quality of the instrument than an steinway but, the problem is the world we live in is not interested in that kind of instruments because its not a profitable option.

It would not be all that difficult to produce a modern version of a flat-strung Erard.

Maybe not difficult but the cost of producing an Erard or Pleyel from 1840's is about x3 times more expensive than producing an steinway. (More expensive materials, more time to produce and less strong materials) Rabbit fur hammers were very weak (maybe they had a lifetime of 10-20 years) but the color is exquisite... The result is in my opinion x3 times better in quality of the instrument than an steinway but, the problem is the world we live in is not interested in that kind of instruments because its not a profitable option.

That is why I said, “…a modern version.” Much of the cost of producing a copy, or replica, of an early Erard would not contribute directly to its tone or musical performance. Producing an exact—or even a nearly exact—copy would, indeed, be very costly. There is much, however, that can be simplified without detracting from the overall performance of the resulting instrument.

I realize that nothing less than a slavish copy down to the last detail will satisfy the purist and if the purist can afford to go that route, well and good; he or she should do just that. But that is not what I’m thinking about. I’m thinking about a modern version of those pianos. A flat-strung 225 cm grand, for example, with a low-tensioned scale working with a very light soundboard assembly using a lightened version of a modern action (which is, after all, a derivative of the Erard/Hertz action) and very light, cold-pressed hammers. This piano would use a rim pressed using readily available woods and a string frame built up using steel components shaped by waterjet cutters. The whole thing could be done for a cost at least competitive with Steinway prices. Even in relatively limited production.

No, this would not exactly reproduce the sound of a 150-year old piano—for myself, I’m not sure I’d want to do that—but it would be a dramatic alternative to the heavy, often overpowering sound typical of a modern piano of similar size.

I think we are very fortunate to have members like Del Fandrich (and others) to share their extensive knowledge and experience with us here on Piano World. Plus, we get to see what he looks like, along with Russell Kassman.

Rick

Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

I've been dreaming about such an instrument since I returned home from studying in Paris, c.1970. My teacher had an Erard, straight-strung, from the '90s. Although kept completely closed, it made a fine and adequate forte for most of the repertoire. Of course, it was also possible to play pppp and with perfect control. Next to a modern S&S, you would need an ear trumpet to hear it but it certainly was a useful guide for a young (20-something) student as to the dynamic range known to those composers that would have used such an instrument (Ravel, for one).

I practised on a Pleyel that was built later, was about 190cm, and was more "normal" to a young American's ears. It had a sweet tone, not unlike a late 19th century Knabe. I also played many Gaveaus which rather reminded me of Baldwins.

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that something was lost when we started to crave (demand) all that power.

I think we are very fortunate to have members like Del Fandrich (and others) to share their extensive knowledge and experience with us here on Piano World. Plus, we get to see what he looks like, along with Russell Kassman.

The "illusion' of this unending need for loud pianos is laughable, in an age of modern miking technics.. it may have been neededed in the early 20th century..but certainly not today..and especially in a "home" setting..

I think the Pleyel grand is at Finchley Park? I know there is one there because I was there last month, it has a tone which brought tears to my eyes. Finchley is near Hurstwood Farm: I also went there on the same trip. At Hurstwood a Mr Dain and his assistant Mr Sapsford are fitting carbon fiber sound-boards to the Steingreaber Phonix piano - also the most wonderful tone and VOLUME!! They have also nearly completed what will be a small grand where there is NO metal harp: just what resembles a (cabonfiber) harp, the same as one sees being played by hand plucking strings. The action is by WNG - aluminium supports to cabonfiber action parts. For replacing felt I suggested they look to using the same material which is used for bullet proofed vests; I got what I took to be a knowing wink ! The strings are stainless steel, even the wrapping is ss. The sound was great - even perched on their work bench.

For the original poster: I agree with louis that Erards were only good when the company was run by the original team which is before WWII.. preferably before the great recession..

actually, the best pianos made by Erard IMO were before 1893 or so, because they started cutting corners and I believe they also changed soundboard wood.. nevertheless there are some nice cross-strung grands I have seen made before WWII as well as the traditional parallel ones (I have a parallel one in my living room)

The other thing to worry about is the quality of felt.. on these kinds of pianos with low tension etc. the felt needs to be really good

but I agree with Del! why don't manufacturers build something different, more suitable for the home and closer to the pianos of the composers?

Conservatories would have to agree to an extent, though.. I know that here in Italy piano sales are dictated largely by what conservatory teachers tell their students to buy.. which is usually Yamaha or Kawai etc.. everything is standardized.

but I think that sooner or later a market will spring-up for such things.

Last edited by acortot; 10/10/1206:12 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

Find your required piano and for a price Hurstwood Farm in Kent UK will do just what you have written: infact they will probably have one or two pianos alreat modified and awaiting new owners. You will easilly find their web site, it is either Hurstwood Farm or Phoenix-Steingreiber Pianos.

I think the Pleyel grand is at Finchley Park? I know there is one there because I was there last month, it has a tone which brought tears to my eyes.

Finchley is near Hurstwood Farm: I also went there on the same trip. At Hurstwood a Mr Dain and his assistant Mr Sapsford are fitting carbon fiber sound-boards to the Steingreaber Phonix piano - also the most wonderful tone and VOLUME!!

They have also nearly completed what will be a small grand where there is NO metal harp: just what resembles a (cabonfiber) harp, the same as one sees being played by hand plucking strings.

Thanks for the correction Finchley Park! I should spend a visit there.. I only heard this old Pleyel concert grand in a Youtube video - and, same: tears in my eyes. What a beautiful sound from heaven..

I definitely will evaluate Steingraeber pianos if I ever might buy another grand - maybe an original Steingraeber, or a Steingraeber modified by Hurstwood Farm, or a Steingraeber grand tuned by our forum colleague Larry Buck who does sound research together with Marc Wienert. Who both are intense knowers of the Steinway Centennial D also.

But maybe that there also might exist a method to modify a Centennial D. Thinner strings.. lighter hammers.. other hammer heads.. <dreaming>

The Centennial D sound is yet very good. But there exists nothing in the (technical) world which could not be improved a step further. Or get a development into specific direction.

Taking Theo Steinweg's masterpiece Centennial D as an excellent base for utmost fine pianos: Steinway eventually took (for the purposes of romantic piano to be performed in private salon..) a wrong direction..?.. Made them Brilliant. Loud. With high amount of higher partials.. ?? Asking.

Today I am very thankful because of this "Chopin sound" discussion. It gave me a lot of hints. I was fascinated by the expertise and knowledge of Acortot and his links to an italian specialist for old hammer heads. I started to read the Kriegelstein book about the musicology and methodology of Chopin being a piano teacher. Great reading stuff..

Who likes loud stage sound if he can perform Chopin's music in his living room on a good grand..?.. There is no goal reached. The way to fine sound itself is goal. So I am a happy man. THANKS to this great forum!

I must correct my mistake in my previous post - it is Finchcocks Park not Finchley. My friend who drove me there is an excellent pianist and like me a retired teacher but he taught music whilst I taught engineering drawing. Mr and Mrs Burnette who own the house, which is the piano museum, were great fun. They must be in their seventies but took us, and a bus load of mainly ladies, on a lively tour of the house, Mr Burnette played many of the pianos: making many wise cracks to smooth the show. My friend was invited to help and he not only played but took the ladies for a singing class! The museum closes for the winter I suppose this is because it must be difficult to heat the large building. We were recomended to go to Finchcocks by the people at Hurstwood Farm - it seems they share a commom interest in the instrument. At the house I bought a 1998 recording of ten different pianos all played by Mr Burnette. Gottschalk and Chopin are played on the 1842 Pleyel. Changing the topic to the "engineering" side: I once, in S.Africa, had a Carl Ecke (birdcage)overdamped piano, it was made in about 1890 but had a fantastic tone. When I left Africa a friend took it to Australia ! I often think about finding another. For the present I work on a 1956 Brock, I will probably fit new hammers,the existing I have not only had to reshape but they are only 10mm wide; I find that standard is 11mm.For interest I have streched strips of chammy leather over the felt and this has greatly pleased my ear! If you have live in a 3rd world country - Zimbabwe, you learn to improvise!

The older pianos that I played in France, although not models of perfect regulation, all sounded reasonably good, in tune and with good actions. For the record, the only straight-strung pianos I played were Erards from the period 1890-1910.

The thing I don't understand is that when I hear a youtube or professsional recording of vintage French pianos they are invariably clangy and out-of-tune and with a short sustain. That was not my impression of the older Erards and Pleyels that I played when I was a student in 1970.

The vast majority of old french pianos are in a pitiful state, musically.

This due to people buying and selling old pianos in bad shape as being 'original' when they are simply worn and badly restored maybe a century ago

People use the pianos for museums, concerts and recordings but the restorations are usually limited and playability and sound inaccurate IMO

The piano techs who work on modern pianos hate the old French and English pianos because they are difficult to fix, often requiring disassembly of the wooden frame and custom parts. The pinblock is part of the frame and much harder to replace than modern pinblocks

The felts for hammers have been too hard for decades.

I talked to the man who is a third generation hammer refelter in Paris and he mentioned that he was more or less forced by piano techs who in their infinite wisdom demanded a brighter and louder sound from the old french pianos even though the design of the piano calls for a mellow woody tone

I think it's safe to say that the number of correctly restored pianos in the entire world is very, very small

How to fix this?

I am trying to inform the public so that when a piano broker or repairman sells his piano as being 'original' when in fact it is in pitiful state the buyer will not accept this and demand better work

But it's a battle because even museums and experts have done research which is inaccurate and highly misleading in my opinion.

Last edited by acortot; 10/14/1207:19 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime: