Yeah I think the saga ending with Bruce and Rachel together (had she survived) would have represented regression rather than progression. In the end Rachel did not represent love, she represented a fixation Bruce had with his past, with a lost childhood innocence that was simply never going to come back no matter how much he wanted it to. Or, as you said, he was infatuated with the ideas & ideals Rachel represented rather than loving her for the person she was. I believe Dent loved Rachel for who she was, and I think it was pretty obvious in the end that Rachel loved Dent and not Bruce because in her own heart Rachel had already moved on while Bruce hadn't.

Bruce being with Selina at the end better demonstrates that he's finally moved on and is in a better place mentally and emotionally than he had been in years and ever would have been if he'd ended up with Rachel.

This is an excellent post.

__________________The poster formerly known as RachelDawes

Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters. - Greg Rucka

^ It is an excellent post and I don't see how anyone can say that Bruce and Rachel had some deep connection. They were boring whenever they were together, and I never once got the vibe that Bruce was attracted to her (either of the Rachels). The two times they kissed, it felt like they were kissing for absolutely no logical reason.

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Oh, I didnt bother to read your giant wall of text to begin with, as its probably your usual argument that I dont care for or agree with. All you're really doing is twisting facts to support your shipper fantasies. *Shrugs*

Can't really say it's twisting facts to support a shipper fantasy when Bruce and Selina do actually end up together at the end of the movie. Just saying. *Shrugs*

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So Selina does have the deepest connection with Bruce, AND IT SHOWS ON SCREEN. The charity ball scene was key. They're fighting thugs together. They are both looking for an escape, a clean slate. They save each other"s life. The passionate kiss at the end. Another funny thing is that those around them seen something in them two. Alfred makes a remark after finding out Selina stole the pearl necklace and sees that Bruce is more amazed than upset (which is funny how posters here think that Alfred does not know of their relationship). Fox says "Like your girlfriend" . The cafe scene at the end was a nice visual touch also, especially with Selena wearing the pearls. Throughout the movie, Bruce sees something in her, and believes in her to make the right decisions.

Oh, I didnt bother to read your giant wall of text to begin with, as its probably your usual argument that I dont care for or agree with. All you're really doing is twisting facts to support your shipper fantasies. *Shrugs*

Quite funny how some just don't seem to get that not every person views onscreen events the same way.

Quite funny how some just don't seem to get that not every person views onscreen events the same way.

Or rather they just refuse to accept it.

Ultimately, I don't even dispute that Selina was "Right" for Bruce at the end...I just disagree with this idea that Rachel didn't "get" or understand Bruce. I also disagree with the idea that she was "wrong" for Bruce on a personality level. Circumstance-wise, yes. But to act like they had nothing in common dosen't make sense to me, even if the character was poorly acted.

__________________"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."

Ultimately, I don't even dispute that Selina was "Right" for Bruce at the end...I just disagree with this idea that Rachel didn't "get" or understand Bruce. I also disagree with the idea that she was "wrong" for Bruce on a personality level. Circumstance-wise, yes. But to act like they had nothing in common dosen't make sense to me, even if the character was poorly acted.

I enjoyed Bruce and Selina's scenes, and was fine with the ending. However, for me the deepest connection of the trilogy is between Bruce and Rachel. I don't see how it can be otherwise. She had the greatest impact on him in life and death. Christian Bale's acting overcame most of my problems with the lack of "chemistry", lacklustre acting from Holmes and Gyllenhaal, and the flawed writing. An example of which is the "Dear Bruce" letter which has been mentioned here. It did a disservice to Rachel's character. Here's a woman who's slapped Bruce twice, yet she can't face Bruce to tell him she's marrying Harvey Dent? Another scene which undermined their relationship was the scene in TDK, when Bruce make the Lamborghini joke following the grieving scene for Rachel. That was just incomprehensible.

I disagree with those who say Bruce and Rachel have nothing in common. They are very alike in many ways. Both are crusaders in their own fashion, idealistic, courageous, and incorruptible. I read somewhere that Bruce was looking for his hero without a mask, not realizing that he had one in Rachel. I thought that was very accurate.

Selina showed up in the last act of the trilogy, and so didn't have much time to get to know Bruce, whereas Rachel had two whole movies with him.

Selina and Bruce had little screentime together, while Rachel and Bruce knew each other since childhood.

Rachel helped show Bruce the difference between justice and revenge, and was kind of a moral compass for Bruce.

Her letter in TDK foreshadowed the finale of TDK, when The Joker had the two ferries ready to blow. Batman didn't believe the people would blow each other up, because he had too much faith in them, as her letter said: "Don't lose your faith in people." Bruce didn't read the letter, but still, there's a connection there.

But then again, who cares if Bruce spent his whole childhood with Rachel, who cares if Rachel was his only true friend? Who cares that she is the only person that ever really understood him? Who cares that he pined for her all of his life, and learned many lessons from her which helped mold him into Batman? Selina is a sexy babe in a tight outfit! She was in the comic book, and Rachel wasn't!

But then again, who cares if Bruce spent his whole childhood with Rachel, who cares if Rachel was his only true friend? Who cares that she is the only person that ever really understood him? Who cares that he pined for her all of his life, and learned many lessons from her which helped mold him into Batman? Selina is a sexy babe in a tight outfit! She was in the comic book, and Rachel wasn't!

She was the only person to realize that Batman was the real face and Bruce was the mask.

And she's known him longer than anyone (except Alfred)

In TDK, she already admited that Alfred know Bruce better than her(or anyone) at the time

if she really understand him, this conversation would not occured

-------------------------------

-Alfred,Why is he letting Harvey do this?

He went down to the press conference.

-I know. He just stood by.

Perhaps both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than the whims of a terrorist, Miss Dawes even if everyone hates him for it.That's the sacrifice he's making.
He's not being a hero. He's being something more.

-Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Letting Harvey take the fall for this is not heroic at all.
You know him better than anyone.

this thread is about who(as female)shared a deeper connection with Wayne--- how do we define this"connection"?

----------------------------------------------------
Rachel Dawes has her own creed & code/principle---before her life come to its end, Wayne's behavior/principle is not fit in her creed /principle anymore to a degree that she could not understand his act and rebuke him in front Alfred and then formally ditch him---obviously she would not change her creed / principle to conform Bruce Wayne's
Selina Kyle has her own creeds & codes/principles---self-preservation/ self-centered ideology(which also not fit with Wayne's) ---eventually she did something to break her own creeds& codes

Selina showed up in the last act of the trilogy, and so didn't have much time to get to know Bruce, whereas Rachel had two whole movies with him.

Selina and Bruce had little screentime together, while Rachel and Bruce knew each other since childhood.

Rachel helped show Bruce the difference between justice and revenge, and was kind of a moral compass for Bruce.

Her letter in TDK foreshadowed the finale of TDK, when The Joker had the two ferries ready to blow. Batman didn't believe the people would blow each other up, because he had too much faith in them, as her letter said: "Don't lose your faith in people." Bruce didn't read the letter, but still, there's a connection there.

But then again, who cares if Bruce spent his whole childhood with Rachel, who cares if Rachel was his only true friend? Who cares that she is the only person that ever really understood him? Who cares that he pined for her all of his life, and learned many lessons from her which helped mold him into Batman? Selina is a sexy babe in a tight outfit! She was in the comic book, and Rachel wasn't!

You almost swayed my opinion. However, if we rethink this, we're putting everything in Bruce's perspective, and what you have above would hold firmly. Yet a connection has to be mutual, from both sides. By TDK, Rachel was iffy about having any connection with Bruce, and at the time of her death, she chose Harvey, meaning that she decides to have both Batman and Bruce out of her life. Whereas Selina on the other hand was drawing closer and closer, which probably lead to the kiss and them being together at the end.

Ultimately, I don't even dispute that Selina was "Right" for Bruce at the end...I just disagree with this idea that Rachel didn't "get" or understand Bruce. I also disagree with the idea that she was "wrong" for Bruce on a personality level. Circumstance-wise, yes. But to act like they had nothing in common doesn't make sense to me, even if the character was poorly acted.

I agree to some extent. Rachel and Bruce shared a connection. It was a different kind of relationship from "movies" point of view. Many criticize this relationship because it didn't feel romantic enough. It was not meant to be. They were friends, they obviously liked each other and wanted something more, but they slowly fell apart.

There are a couple of nice moments in Begins. When Bruce arrives to Gotham, Rachel hears the news and is shocked. She moved on, but now she has hope for something more with Bruce, not sure how to manage all of that. And when Bruce encounters Rachel after his first playboy millionaire act, he wants her to see him as who he really is. He wants her to understand him because he has hope for them too.

Rachel Dawes: I never stopped thinking about you. About us. And when I heard you were back, I-I started to hope.
Bruce Wayne: [Rachel kisses Bruce]
Rachel Dawes: But then I found out about your mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] No, *this* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.

At the end of Begins, Rachel sees a new shade of Bruce's personality. She now knows that he is not some irresponsible playboy. He is noble, he has a purpose and a mission. She admires that, but I don't think she is sure she likes it. Now she has hope, the same hope Bruce has, at least for now. In TDK, Rachel has moved on. She found Harvey Dent someone who understands her, someone who share goals and interest, someone who loves her. But she still harbors feelings for Bruce.That's why she allows Bruce to kiss him in the apartment scene, thats why she hasn't told Harvey her response about marrying him. She is still not sure. That's her predicament in the movie. She has to make a choice.

As the film progresses, she realizes that Bruce and her have grown apart, that she doesn't want to follow Bruce into that path. When Dent takes the fall saying that he is Batman, Rachel is upset that Bruce didn't say anything. She cares for Harvey, whereas she doesn't understand Bruce. She chooses Harvey Dent, but she knows that Bruce would be deeply hurt by all of these. Then came the letter. It is a great thing with a beautiful, and at the same time sad message. She is hurt by all of these, she knows she gave Bruce hope for something that now she can't give to him. She is honest, and she still cares for Bruce by encouraging him to not lose faith in people. It was the most sensible thing for her to do, she couldn't handle it. And she knows that Bruce might lose his faith in her, she takes that chance.

It was a more complex thing than it appears.

__________________

A hero can be anyone.Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know that the world hadn't ended.

I agree to some extent. Rachel and Bruce shared a connection. It was a different kind of relationship from "movies" point of view. Many criticize this relationship because it didn't feel romantic enough. It was not meant to be. They were friends, they obviously liked each other and wanted something more, but they slowly fell apart.

There are a couple of nice moments in Begins. When Bruce arrives to Gotham, Rachel hears the news and is shocked. She moved on, but now she has hope for something more with Bruce, not sure how to manage all of that. And when Bruce encounters Rachel after his first playboy millionaire act, he wants her to see him as who he really is. He wants her to understand him because he has hope for them too.

Rachel Dawes: I never stopped thinking about you. About us. And when I heard you were back, I-I started to hope.
Bruce Wayne: [Rachel kisses Bruce]
Rachel Dawes: But then I found out about your mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] No, *this* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.

At the end of Begins, Rachel sees a new shade of Bruce's personality. She now knows that he is not some irresponsible playboy. He is noble, he has a purpose and a mission. She admires that, but I don't think she is sure she likes it. Now she has hope, the same hope Bruce has, at least for now. In TDK, Rachel has moved on. She found Harvey Dent someone who understands her, someone who share goals and interest, someone who loves her. But she still harbors feelings for Bruce.That's why she allows Bruce to kiss him in the apartment scene, thats why she hasn't told Harvey her response about marrying him. She is still not sure. That's her predicament in the movie. She has to make a choice.

As the film progresses, she realizes that Bruce and her have grown apart, that she doesn't want to follow Bruce into that path. When Dent takes the fall saying that he is Batman, Rachel is upset that Bruce didn't say anything. She cares for Harvey, whereas she doesn't understand Bruce. She chooses Harvey Dent, but she knows that Bruce would be deeply hurt by all of these. Then came the letter. It is a great thing with a beautiful, and at the same time sad message. She is hurt by all of these, she knows she gave Bruce hope for something that now she can't give to him. She is honest, and she still cares for Bruce by encouraging him to not lose faith in people. It was the most sensible thing for her to do, she couldn't handle it. And she knows that Bruce might lose his faith in her, she takes that chance.

It was a more complex thing than it appears.

Pretty much sums it up.

I mean, my question is this: If you somehow put Selina in a time machine, took her back 8 years, and had her encounter BB/TDK Bruce, do you think those two would end up in a cafe together? IMO, it would've ended up like the relationship they had in Jeph Loeb's "Long Halloween" and "Dark Victory" books.

__________________"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked."

If you ask me, I would say yes. It would be a different story though. She did rob him in Rises. She was a thief, and Bruce still liked her. She was lost, much the same he was in the past. I think it is safe to assume that Batman could see good in her. The fact that she was a survivor reminds me of the flashback in Begins where Bruce tells Ra's that the first time he stole:

Bruce Wayne: The first time I stole so that I wouldn't starve, yes. I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong.

I still think that, even she appears for one movie, Selina Kyle's character and his interactions with Bruce Wayne conveys a lot of meaning and substance, and it is satisfactory for the characters themselves and for us as viewers. We really don't need to see more. At the end we know that Bruce overcame his pain, he made Gotham a better place, and is willing to have a better life.

We can't help but put ourselves in Alfred's shoes. We want Bruce to be happy, and at the end, faith was rewarded.

__________________

A hero can be anyone.Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know that the world hadn't ended.

If you ask me, I would say yes. It would be a different story though. She did rob him in Rises. She was a thief, and Bruce still liked her. She was lost, much the same he was in the past. I think it is safe to assume that Batman could see good in her. The fact that she was a survivor reminds me of the flashback in Begins where Bruce tells Ra's that the first time he stole:

Bruce Wayne: The first time I stole so that I wouldn't starve, yes. I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong.

I still think that, even she appears for one movie, Selina Kyle's character and his interactions with Bruce Wayne conveys a lot of meaning and substance, and it is satisfactory for the characters themselves and for us as viewers. We really don't need to see more. At the end we know that Bruce overcame his pain, he made Gotham a better place, and is willing to have a better life.

We can't help but put ourselves in Alfred's shoes. We want Bruce to be happy, and at the end, faith was rewarded.

I agree. The most interesting aspect of Bruce and Selina relationship in comics, cartoons or any other place is see how their interactions affect each other, without the "couple" thing. They aren't that in Rises, they are kinda building some embasament to be that someday. And I liked we just saw the "start" of that because, at first, to me, seeing them as a stable couple is... I don't know, boring. And second, because I don't know if Nolan could write that properly.

I agree. The most interesting aspect of Bruce and Selina relationship in comics, cartoons or any other place is see how their interactions affect each other, without the "couple" thing. They aren't that in Rises, they are kinda building some embasament to be that someday. And I liked we just saw the "start" of that because, at first, to me, seeing them as a stable couple is... I don't know, boring. And second, because I don't know if Nolan could write that properly.

stable couple ---consider that pearl necklace(and there could be months or nearly a year has past between aftermath of Bane's occupation and Florence cafe scene)

boring---I think it depends,if someone can creat a exquisite story such as the one(Adaptation) written by "Yours Hopefully", then nothing boring but outstanding(good enough for me).

stable couple ---consider that pearl necklace(and there could be months or nearly a year has past between aftermath of Bane's occupation and Florence cafe scene)

boring---I think it depends,if someone can creat a exquisite story such as the one(Adaptation) written by "Yours Hopefully", then nothing boring but outstanding(good enough for me).

I'm not talking about fanfics, but comics in general. I don't like this aspect in Hush, for example. Before the reboot of the DC Universe in comics, they were very boring. I didn't like Selina's reaction when she saw Bruce for the first time after he returned "from his death". Was out of the character to me, I don't know.

I'm not talking about fanfics, but comics in general. I don't like this aspect in Hush, for example. Before the reboot of the DC Universe in comics, they were very boring. I didn't like Selina's reaction when she saw Bruce for the first time after he returned "from his death". Was out of the character to me, I don't know.

No, I liked each scene of them in Rises. That you mentioned is amazing too, everything was better that I expected. The reaction I mentioned was in comics, Batman - Streets of Gotham #17. There's more, I didn't find the page: