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NEW DELHI: The wait for a long flight to land could never have been more desperate than for passengers on board Air India's Delhi-Chicago nonstop on Saturday.A Boeing 777 was released for the 16-hour journey with four toilets closed and the remaining eight others also packing up by the time it was a good two hours from the destination.The condition of passengers on the aircraft - which had 324 adults and seven infants as passengers and 16 crew members - was understandably bad as the plane had taken off at 2am from Delhi.A hearty breakfast, full meal and alcoholic and nonalcoholic beverages were served during the course of the flight.At first, there were long queues at the eight operational toilets. Soon, there were no queues as all lavatories became unusable. Hectic parleys went on between the cockpit and AI operations whether the flight should be diverted to Toronto, but they decided against it.

"The Boeing 777-300 (VTALJ) flew into Delhi from Hyderabad on Friday night... Since the aircraft was booked to take a full load of passengers to Chicago from Delhi and no alternate aircraft could be arranged at such short notice, it was felt that the eight servicable toilets will be enough," said a senior AI official."In Delhi we tried to clear the four toilets using nitrogen flushing. But the toilet pipes were choked with passengers flushing all kinds of stuff like plastic bottles and sanitary napkins. Opening up the system would have taken time," said an official.

What a disaster. Have not flown AI for a very long time. Stories like this just ensure that will not change.

ldev wrote:What a disaster. Have not flown AI for a very long time. Stories like this just ensure that will not change.

Also this part

"In Delhi we tried to clear the four toilets using nitrogen flushing. But the toilet pipes were choked with passengers flushing all kinds of stuff like plastic bottles and sanitary napkins. Opening up the system would have taken time," said an official.

Singha wrote:its the fault of passengers rather than airline or boeing. despite clear instructions in all toilets not to do such stuff people keep on doing it.

What they need is just a big hole in the bottom of the plane to dump the tanks over the ocean!

Taking airlines like KLM and Luftwaffe, the flight attendants clean the toilets mid-flight between Europe to Asia or North/South America. They put on an apron and gloves and do the job. If non functional, then aircraft doesn't leave. It is indeed AI's fault for departing without working toilets.

I mean can you identify any benefit to the nation with Spice Jet outright buying 11 billion dollars of Boeing 737s?Its a deal with a total of 205 jets costing $22 billion with nothing of significance has been negotiated in terms of offset.

Both Boeing & Airbus have set up large facilities in China, hardly anything in India.

This at a time when "expanding Indian carriers will need 1,850 new planes valued at $265 billion in 20 years, according to a Boeing forecast. Single-aisle planes will make up the bulk of the new deliveries."

The 737s and other single aisle planes will be shipped right over to India after being built in China with ZERO benefit to India.We are subsidizing our own demise.

Right now its too late. I once suggested few ways to Civil Aviation Ministry to get a huge boost for Indian Aerospace industry and a lot of high quality jobs through these large ticket buyings by Indian airliners. I even got a reply from Jayant Sinha that Govt is mulling ways to capitalize on this. But clearly govt was caught napping has lost the bus for current buying cycle. (They could still re-negotiate the A320 and this B737 deals and get something substantial, but Govt seems to be clueless).

Boeing does not have anything in <100 seat category and they clearly are lagging big time behind Airbus in 200-220 category where A320 rules. We might be able to get a JV with Boeing for these two categories if we promise them all orders from India going to this JV. Let a private Indian company like Tata do the mud moving while Boeing pitch in to support in technology intensive areas for example design and flight testing and setting up assembly lines. Lets not get too much into ToT, but try to get most of the manufacturing and full eco system in India first through such JV. Boeing might get interested if we show them candies and de-risk the JV through our money mostly. Similarly we could lure GE or PW for engine manufacturing.

Its rather stupid to go for screwdrivergiri for Defense projects where we should be going solo and not use the civil sector at all, which has far bigger potential of kick-starting Aerospace industry and provide far more jobs for much larger time period.

This being a private deal, as long as the buyer (Spice Jet) is happy with the price, the Indian GAUment should not get involved. Whatever the govt extracts from Boeing in terms of setting up screw driver turning factories in India is offset by a higher price for the planes - which may hurt the buyer (airline). Letting the buyer (airline) get the maximum benefit from the deal without interference is the way "ideal" capitalism should be.

ToT is largely bullsh&t. All that is ever transferred is obsolete stuff at obscene prices.

Neshant wrote:This being a private deal, as long as the buyer (Spice Jet) is happy with the price, the Indian GAUment should not get involved. Whatever the govt extracts from Boeing in terms of setting up screw driver turning factories in India is offset by a higher price for the planes - which may hurt the buyer (airline). Letting the buyer (airline) get the maximum benefit from the deal without interference is the way "ideal" capitalism should be.

ToT is largely bullsh&t. All that is ever transferred is obsolete stuff at obscene prices.

Why should we care whatever the F*%$ "ideal" Capitalism means..? And there is no such thing as "Ideal" Capitalism, least of all in Aerospace/defense.

And GOI can always compensate the price escalation by giving waivers, tax breaks in various forms. The reduction in costs in manufacturing and MRO for next 20odd years of operational costs can easily make the deal look nicer. Its far better to pay little more cost in Civil sector to develop Aerospace industry on much broader level than to play with our National Security in long term for much lesser potential gain (e.g. screwdriviergiri of F-16).

Site near international airport will train 200 aircraft engineers annually.

James Pozzi

Airbus will establish its first facility in Asia for the training of maintenance engineers and aircraft pilots near New Delhi’s international airport.

A ground breaking ceremony took place at the site on Friday (Mar. 17) for the 7000m2 site, which is expected to begin operate in late-2018.

Once built, it will house two Airbus A320 flight simulators, increasing to four and potentially to six simulators over an unspecified period.

Approximately 200 maintenance engineers will be trained annually to start with, along with 800 pilots. Airbus said the center will cater for Airbus operators in India, which operates more than 250 Airbus jets and has more than 570 on order.

According to data from the OEM, India is the fastest growing domestic aviation market globally with a forecast annual growth rate of 9.3% over the next 20 years, more than double the 4.6% worldwide average.

In order to meet demand, Airbus estimates at least 1,600 new passenger and freighter aircraft are needed in India by 2035, with the in-service fleet requiring more than 24,000 maintenance technicians and pilots to service them.

“Airbus’ pilot and maintenance engineering training center is the type of facility which will help augment the talent pool of such personnel and thus be a force multiplier for the Indian aviation sector.”

Though in my opinion its too little too late, and GoI fails miserably to leverage this in military matters.

Same for the shipping sector with private shipbuilders with huge investments in dire straits.

this really suggest we need to avoid another (let us import all electronics forex fiasco) and get on with building up civilian a/c designs with guaranteed 100s of desi order like Comac has done. 600 on book for C919. japan is well integrated into boeing subcontract and making its own c919 sized jet.

else it will be like AD 1700 - giant economy but no world class strategic technology. we are in danger of falling into the same trap

we do not even have large MRO ops to service other peoples planes. ie we are at bottom of food chain as pure users

--------

NEW DELHI: India has become the third largest aviation market in terms of domestic passenger traffic, beating Japan, an industry report has said.

India's domestic air passenger traffic stood at 100 million in 2016 and was behind only the US (719 million) and China (436 million), Sydney-based aviation think-tank Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) said in its latest report.

In its latest report CAPA suggests, India acquired the third spot globally by unseating Japan, which flew 97 million domestic passengers in 2016.

Domestic air traffic has shown a consistent growth of 20 to 25 per cent throughout 2015 and 2016, peaking in January this year at 25.13 per cent.

However, the domestic travel demand rose 16 per cent in February this year, ending the long streak of over 20 per cent.

According to CAPA, India which enjoyed the fourth position in terms of overall air passenger traffic (both domestic and international) along with the UK, has also inched closer to becoming the third largest one by March next year.

"India will become the third largest market 2-3 years ahead of what was projected. This is because the growth has been much higher," Kapil Kaul, head of CAPA India, said.

Japan, which flew 141 million passengers in 2016, was ahead of India whose total air passenger traffic was 131 million in the previous year, as per CAPA.

United States with 815 million passengers in 2016 enjoyed the top position, followed by China with 490 million, according to the report.

"While we will reach the third spot for both domestic and international air travel ahead of the projected period, we will remain at that position for a very long time because it will not be easy to surpass China and the US," Kaul said.

Earlier International Air Transport Association (IATA), a trade association of the world's airlines has suggested in its passenger forecast that India will displace the UK in terms of becoming world's third largest aviation market internationally as well by 2026.

An aviation market is defined by traffic to, from and within the country.

India emerges as “the third largest aviation market in terms of domestic passenger traffic”:

India has become the third largest aviation market in terms of domestic passenger traffic, beating Japan, an industry report has said.

India’s domestic air passenger traffic stood at 100 million in 2016 and was behind only the US (719 million) and China (436 million), Sydney-based aviation think-tank Capa Centre of Aviation said in its latest report.

India acquired the third spot globally by unseating Japan, which flew 97 million domestic passengers in 2016, Capa said. ………………..

See my post in economy thread. As a banana republic we dont even make a local atr72ski and now 3rd largest mkt

Its no better than ad1700 when india got ripped by euros

Cheen is well on way with c919 flight imminent

Its indeed another repetition of those automated weaving machines from Britain producing expensive woven cloth from our raw materials and then selling it back to us at cut throat prices. Drove most of rural India into hunger and death.

What is it with our country that we ignore history repeatedly? We have the third largest aviation market at 100 million and over the next decade will surely overtake China to be at least the second largest.

Yet we have no domestic manufacturer and a robust aviation industry like France has centered around Tolouse. And where does France figure in the aviation passenger market!!

We are developing 40,000 RPM pumps that can pump cryogenic fluids but we cant develop an aero engine. And what are those guys at GTRE doing to remedy this in the coming year.

Cheen has understood well what are the high value strategic resources & products that will drive trade balances and diplomacy in future- POL - it is chummy with both middle east and CAR states. long term oil deal with iran. gas and crude pipes via kazakhstan are in place.- shipping and railways - it is a major world power in both - multiple OEM- power generation eqpt - major world power- consumer and industrial electronics - major world power- civil aviation - comac c919 and c929, Y20 etc are coming along - defence products - a large exporter, highest number of new projects ongoing- hacking and industrial espionage - major world power - food security - good domestic productivity and tight trading links with east asian food exporters and western hemisphere meat exporters - software - a protected home market ensures that global sized giants like alibaba, tencent, sina, weibo etc have grown up and now looking to invest abroad- basic healthcare & HDI markers - better at rural level than india as our money goes to subsidies, bags of rice, saree, cycles etc.

just compare our "world domination strategy" (or lack of it!) to all the above

there exist no unified indian plan to increment CNP (composite national power) or even to define what is CNP weighted factors suitable for india. if the Govt includes the above, someone will jump up and down and try to add factors like "freedom to do conversion" , "cow eating freedom" and "loan waivers" into the must have list.

Is it possible to create a cheap safe, low and slow flyer that essentially provides a faster alternative to intercity Volvo buses. I am thinking of a modern alternative to the venerable AN-2 that can take off from very small grounds (<200m long) and carry 50 passengers flying at 200 kmph.

well once you put headcount as 50 its not that small anymore. atleast ATR72 sized. next civil aviation has demands on safety , engine etc that quickly drive up cost. russians and ukrainians probably use the AN32 for civilian transport into the frozen areas - at a higher weight penalty. and they are not hot on safety as periodic crashes in siberia indicate. but their superjet100 looks good.

but really the RTA was what you mentioned, albeit not rough field capable. concrete strips are fairly cheap with few basic ATC gear. see ballari airport as a example. small but neat here http://www.tlvsolutions.com/administrat ... r5itvk3q71KF used to fly to it iirc. but govt needs to give some subsidy like waiving ATF taxes, and force the Hub terminal operators to waive the UDF to make these short haul flights to mysore, tirupati, hampi, shimoga etc affordable and sustainable.

so far no encouraging signs - the vijayawada based air costa is on verge of closing down. air travel is still looked upon as luxury to be milked with taxes on the "rich". success comes when hitherto rich luxuries like air travel, cars, meat, milk are made cheaper and mass affordable for the masses - like massa , germany, uk, japan...success is not 10 people squabbling over a small never growing pie

but RTA seems to have been stillborn? no noises. there is absolutely NONE OEM who will cut their own stomach by agreeing to co-develop a plane with us. thats not the case even with the C919 and japani plane.

what needs to be done is the ATAGS model where a domestic entity or domestic coalition of willing is given the deal, and they hook in with whichever subsystem suppliers are reqd while designing the air frame, integrating all subsystems, testing and certifying the plane from start to finish. here and there, some consultancy on IP also might be available from small players who serve the biggies. this is what COMAC is - honeywell avionics, GE LEAP engine but a chinese plane nose to tail with a plan to chindigenize in phases and hence again technology for domestic use - with 600 orders from state owned airlines they are strongly placed to succeed.

our RTA cannot be run like a NAL owned science project ie Saras. it has to have HAL, air india, indian pvt airlines (all of them via some govt mandate to buy and support indigenous if they want to play ball in our backyard) , BSF, IAF, HAL, ADA, entire DRDO in a coalition of willing like AVIC is. 100s of confirmed orders have to be on the book before the first flight.

time is running out. I dont want look down from heaven to see my son in middle age getting into a ATR472 or A370 .. thats abject defeat.

The AN32 was a special project for India. The An-32 is essentially a re-engined An-26. The launch customer was the Indian Air Force.

It used the AN 26 fuselage with the russian engines ( Ivchenko AI-20 turboprop engines), that India already had repair and overhaul facilities for.

It always had/still has very high vibrations and one hears that it is extremely fatiguing for the pilot to fly. The electronics used was almost all of Indian manufacture and initially suffered a very high failure rate because of the high vibration environment.

The electronics have since been installed on tuned mountings and so have a much better performance.

Singha wrote:russians and ukrainians probably use the AN32 for civilian transport into the frozen areas - at a higher weight penalty. and they are not hot on safety as periodic crashes in siberia indicate

If its a civilian carrier then they prefer An-148 which is very ruggedised to operate in sparse infra and extereme climate of siberia ( -50 deg ) , Also they have higher mounted engine which is good for such airstrips/unpaved runway.

For military garrison transport civilians and mil personal they use An-140 turboprop , for short hops they use Mi-17

An-148/An-158 is a nice aircraft to operate in remote feeder routes like NE or places where infra facility is not upto the mark , Considering Antonov is not in good shape we can lic build this in India , its 75 seater and proven types , Runs around 300 hours per month , An-158 is 99 seater bigger version

Cheen btw has bought up the whole AN70 lock stock and barrel and will do doubt make A400 clone out of it once the Y20 jet is a bit done.

there must be some shelved projects in russia which could help us cut the RTA timeline and derisk things but no real drive to develop a domestic civilian ac manufacturing base. it has to be approached as a bata chappal basic industry not high science which only high priests can dabble in.

Singha wrote:Cheen btw has bought up the whole AN70 lock stock and barrel and will do doubt make A400 clone out of it once the Y20 jet is a bit done.

Not really , The An-70 program is as good as dead though its a beautiful aircraft if any one can resurrect it, may be we should try

Cheen though is using lot of Ukraine engineers to reverse engineer the GT engine used on ships the high end HP types.

there must be some shelved projects in russia which could help us cut the RTA timeline and derisk things but no real drive to develop a domestic civilian ac manufacturing base. it has to be approached as a bata chappal basic industry not high science which only high priests can dabble in.

There is just one project IL-114-300 which is 67 seater RTA , UAC has invited HAL for this project lets see what turns from it.

I feel An-148 is a better program if they can cut a good deal with Ukraine , Its proven and reliable and ruggedish aircraft , All Childhood diseases removed and now it flies with many airlines , the military also can use it if required they have high mounted wings and engine and can land in unpaved/grass runway which means it has higher sink rate in landing and tough landing gear.

I was thinking of a ground up biplane with short wingspan with highly efficient turboprop with large slow moving propeller for high efficiency. I have sketched out a draft version which is my dream of a volvo bus replacement an Air-Bhains (Air Buffalo) if you will. A low and slow plodder that gets the job of moving people Intra City from point A to B at around 200-300 KMPH DONE.

The objective of the exercise is to incorporate elements of design in a modern STOL craft which can be safely operated from say concreted maidans around 200 to 300m long. I have added every innovation in slow speed aircraft in the sketch below which gurus here will recognize. Is it practical to get such a design up and running.

I was thinking of a ground up biplane with short wingspan with highly efficient turboprop with large slow moving propeller for high efficiency. I have sketched out a draft version which is my dream of a volvo bus replacement an Air-Bhains (Air Buffalo) if you will. A low and slow plodder that gets the job of moving people Intra City from point A to B at around 200-300 KMPH DONE.

The objective of the exercise is to incorporate elements of design in a modern STOL craft which can be safely operated from say concreted maidans around 200 to 300m long. I have added many innovations in slow speed aircraft in the sketch below which gurus here will recognize. Is it practical to get such a design up and running.

Singha wrote:Cheen has understood well what are the high value strategic resources & products that will drive trade balances and diplomacy in future- POL - it is chummy with both middle east and CAR states. long term oil deal with iran. gas and crude pipes via kazakhstan are in place.- shipping and railways - it is a major world power in both - multiple OEM- power generation eqpt - major world power- consumer and industrial electronics - major world power- civil aviation - comac c919 and c929, Y20 etc are coming along - defence products - a large exporter, highest number of new projects ongoing- hacking and industrial espionage - major world power - food security - good domestic productivity and tight trading links with east asian food exporters and western hemisphere meat exporters - software - a protected home market ensures that global sized giants like alibaba, tencent, sina, weibo etc have grown up and now looking to invest abroad- basic healthcare & HDI markers - better at rural level than india as our money goes to subsidies, bags of rice, saree, cycles etc.

This is exactly why I admire the Mandarins of Qin. They have steadfastly improved and built on their strengths and today command respect among large swathes of the world which includes their home populations.

kiranA wrote:I think its a violation of international aviation trade to ask for manufacturing facility as quid pro quo for buying aircraft. India should make investment easier.

That didn't apply for China did it when they squeezed Airbus to build a manufacturing plant as quid-pro-quo for an order from Chinese airlines? We should stop being the only rule-following munna when nobody else does it. But it doesn't even go that far I think. I doubt the baboos in the civil aviation ministry even thought of leveraging these huge deals.

That said, India is ripe for rural and regional service, and always has been. Problem will be balancing safety with growth. Indian airlines currently have a good safety record, which brand could be damaged easily.

That said, India is ripe for rural and regional service, and always has been. Problem will be balancing safety with growth. Indian airlines currently have a good safety record, which brand could be damaged easily.

Thanks for the input AmritK would appreciate more such to tweak the concept I have in mind.

For almost 9 months of the year India has reasonably good weather and even in Monsoons a reasonably size aircraft can adjust to wind and weather conditions . I am contemplating a different mode of air travel where the aircraft have very benign characteristics and are difficult to crash even in bad weather. These aircraft will be piloted by people with bush aircraft type training (coupled with AI-FBW pilot support) rather than current Jet aircraft pilot training. In the design please see URL below proposed a biplane concept is chosen to improve wing loading. Most biplanes have service ceilings of ~5000m. I was thinking of such Biplanes making 300 KM hops between small towns essentially below weather Covering Bangalore Mumbai (900 KM) in 3-6 hours instead of 16 hours by bus as of date. Slow Speed STOL design

The low wing loading will be necessary for low speed takeoff/STOL at say 30 kmph however as the aircraft reaches its cruise speed around say 300 kmph slats will be withdrawn to change CL of the wing to better suit the higher speed just like the AN-2. As the altitudes are smaller <6000m there will be less need for pressurization so designs are simpler and more robust. Here is an example of an AN-2 flying below weather low and slow (quite loud) but ok for our purposes

I think the plant in Tianjin is just an assembly plant. The parts are delivered from Airbus manufacturing plants. I don't think there is real manufacturing involved.

Perhaps, but at least the planes they fly are assembled by Chinese labour. And whatever little Airbus has shared with the Chinese has surely contributed toward coming up with their own C919 family. Having seen the Chinese methods, they will learn from whatever little opening they get and incrementally add it to their knowledge. No hand wringing on "only assembly, not manufacture", etc. Slowly, but surely they go up the value chain. Whereas we are still talking about the Saras and RTA, MTA, etc. All good for chai-biskoot sessions onlee, while our airlines import planes in their hundreds.

Ironically, we want defence majors to make (assemble) in India - a field where it is harder to get that going due to various restrictions. A civil domain ought to be easier and surely will provide many more jobs due to the scale of orders?

There is an argument that we cannot tell our airlines to check with the govt before placing orders. Given the staggering sums in billions of dollars that will go from our national reserves, I don't see why not. They are not buying Parle biscuits from D-Mart, after all. In any case, the govt can give some incentives like some tax breaks for airlines if they check with the govt before importing planes, or pay up a steeper premium in taxes. And the govt needs to have an aviation cell that has a long term plan and coordinates investments in the area. But the Modi sarkar is not much better than the previous when it comes to aviation. No imagination whatsoever.