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Originally posted by UsualSuspect

Yep, see, he still doesn't get it. What you're talking about are games that involve multiple players, baseball, poker, whatever it might be. We're talking about grouping in a game that is largely based on being able to do everything alone. If an MMO was designed where a team was required, just like baseball, then that to you would be 'forced grouping'.

So while you say people who like the idea of grouping will go and do it because it's fun, then sure, they really will, but only if the game supports it, just like baseball. People who want to group can't do that when the game is Solitaire and nobody wants to play Poker.

I can pull out a deck of cards and play solitaire just as well as I can play poker. I can pull out a ball and glove and play catch just as well as I can play baseball. In fact, I can do both of those things in a crowd of other people doing exactly the same thing. Just having other people around does not obligate me to play with them.

If there are 50 people in a park throwing a ball up in the air and catching it, that's choice. If five of those people decide they'd rather join together and play catch, for no reason other than they want to do it, that's choice. If someone comes along with a gun and outlaws throwing the ball up in the air and catching it because the five guys playing catch want everyone to play with them, that's no longer choice.

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Originally posted by Cephus404

I can pull out a deck of cards and play solitaire just as well as I can play poker. I can pull out a ball and glove and play catch just as well as I can play baseball. In fact, I can do both of those things in a crowd of other people doing exactly the same thing. Just having other people around does not obligate me to play with them.

If there are 50 people in a park throwing a ball up in the air and catching it, that's choice. If five of those people decide they'd rather join together and play catch, for no reason other than they want to do it, that's choice. If someone comes along with a gun and outlaws throwing the ball up in the air and catching it because the five guys playing catch want everyone to play with them, that's no longer choice.

Why are you so blind that you can't see that?

I've never said that soloing should be completely removed, in fact I'm certain I've said the opposite in quite a few posts, what I am saying though is that if you're at a baseball game and all you decide to do is play catch on your own, then don't expect to be winning any trophies. The game is baseball, you've decided not to play it and just thrown a ball against the wall. You don't win at baseball. Simple, right?

The baseball team goes on to win trophies (better gear), travels to new arenas (dungeon & raid content), and tries their best to defeat higher ranked teams (bosses). Yet you want to get those exact same things just for throwing a ball against the wall?

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I am always down for a small gang roam in eve online. But I do play at random times during the day so it is sometimes easier to just fit a ship and see whats lurking in the next system. 300+ ships in one fleet is tops. 300+vs1 and I manage to take down a few and survive=phenominal only eve online

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Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.

I respectfully disagree. You can only solo grind in WoW for some things eg. leveling. For any loot worth using, you must raid or form groups for dungeon. Even crafting requires both these group activities to get mats and recipes.

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Originally posted by Dexter2010

Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.

I respectfully disagree. You can only solo grind in WoW for some things eg. leveling. For any loot worth using, you must raid or form groups for dungeon. Even crafting requires both these group activities to get mats and recipes.

This.

Grouping in MMOs allows players who reach endgame levels to continue making meaningful progression through a series of increasingly challenging encounters. And by meaningful progression, I mean better and better gear.

There is no reason not to allow the soloer the same thing. It might not be the same content, and it should definitely take longer, but it should still allow for the same quality of rewards to be possible.

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I can see both sides of this issue, but I have to say that the point of an MMO is party oriented. Now don't get me wrong I do love to Solo a lot as well; but that is a preference, not the overall idea behind MMORPGs.

It also should be of note that most (not all) developers of MMOs have certain classes (jobs, kits, whatever) that cater better to the idea of solo adventuring; so it's not like they don't recognize the desire of certain players to want and play by themselves if they want.

One game I do play is Adventure Quest Worlds, that game allows me to change my class whenever I want without having multiple characters. So if I want to solo I can equip a class that caters more to that playstyle, and change back whenever I want without having to change the look of my character because there are no class specific equipments, only skills.

What it comes down to is that MMOs were kinda designed around the idea of playing in a group hence the second "M" in the game genre "Massively Multi-player Online Role Playing Game".

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Originally posted by Fizzywizzy

I can see both sides of this issue, but I have to say that the point of an MMO is party oriented. Now don't get me wrong I do love to Solo a lot as well; but that is a preference, not the overall idea behind MMORPGs.

It also should be of note that most (not all) developers of MMOs have certain classes (jobs, kits, whatever) that cater better to the idea of solo adventuring; so it's not like they don't recognize the desire of certain players to want and play by themselves if they want.

One game I do play is Adventure Quest Worlds, that game allows me to change my class whenever I want without having multiple characters. So if I want to solo I can equip a class that caters more to that playstyle, and change back whenever I want without having to change the look of my character because there are no class specific equipments, only skills.

What it comes down to is that MMOs were kinda designed around the idea of playing in a group hence the second "M" in the game genre "Massively Multi-player Online Role Playing Game".

The term “MMO” is being used to describe every online game these days. It’s as if people think all things should be the same and that all the online games should be group centric. If somebody had coined the term Massive Online Game (MOG) back when they first came out, perhaps we wouldn’t be having these discussions.

I for one am glad that the online industry is evolving and that people are getting more “choice” in how they want to play. I mean after all, a soloist spends money just like a grouper.

Developers are realizing just how large and wealthy the solo market is. They also are realizing that the solo/casual/time-limited crowd has more disposable income and does not consume game content at the rate of the groupers. They are realizing that the groupers get together with their fellow grouping buddies, faceroll the content, then demand more and more in the forums.

What I am saying here is this: All games do not have to be group centric. All MMOS should not be the same. That would be quite boring would it not? There should be variety.

If I’m paying money for a game, I want to play it the way I want, not the way you want.

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The answer seems simple, it should naturally always be both. Players play MMOs to play with other people, so their naturally interested in interacting, at least from a gameplay standpoint. I feel Group play should have more incentive since it requires cooperation and the liability of allied shortcomings, as well as the time or effort spent organizing.

There should also be good solo content, and even solo challenges, but group play is naturally superior, if solo play is your interest... there are more than enough options for you, MMOs arn't the genre to specialize in solo play for certain. But more importantly than even that, is that a game with such an emphasis on retention and extremely long lasting entertainment which wildly outstrips classic console games... it should have both, always both, the answer to MMOs in all aspects should be as all inclusive as possible. Try to produce content which is as wide arching and inclusive as possible to hit the largest combine audience possible, whether it's action or social, sandbox or themepark, group or solo, include it all...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

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I play mmo's with friends and most mmo's that we have played really need to be more group friendly. Ramping up difficulty when in a group would be good, and we just don't bother with the collect quests as they take longer to do in a group than their worth. Why play a multiplayer game solo ? I understand that sometimes there is no one to play with and yes there should be solo play but rewards should be greater for group questing imo so it encourages people to play together DAOC had a group bonus and camp bonus this could be so improved for group questing.

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Um, I think every single MMO that has come out over the last 10 years offered full progression for soloers.

That is exactly the problem, when will it be our turn? I get the feeling you soloers dont care at all, you want EVERY single game to have FULL solo progression.

You cry and cry and cry on forums for games that do not offer this. Its become kind of a joke. Can soloers really be that selfish?

I truely never believed that until recently..... very sad

You are making a lot of generalizations.

And the issue is not the allowance of full progression from 1 to cap for soloers. The issue is not having incentive from 1 - cap for players who want to group and making it a different yet compelling experience.

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Um, I think every single MMO that has come out over the last 10 years offered full progression for soloers.

That is exactly the problem, when will it be our turn? I get the feeling you soloers dont care at all, you want EVERY single game to have FULL solo progression.

You cry and cry and cry on forums for games that do not offer this. Its become kind of a joke. Can soloers really be that selfish?

I truely never believed that until recently..... very sad

You are making a lot of generalizations.

And the issue is not the allowance of full progression from 1 to cap for soloers. The issue is not having incentive from 1 - cap for players who want to group and making it a different yet compelling experience.

15 years of online gaming means it comes from exp, not generalizations.

There lots of incentives, its just they are no longer valued, things like simply having fun. Instead its the constant and never ending need to be aquiring something, and doing it in the most effcient way possible or they get testy.

Your defininition of a compelling experience is not the same as others, so you too are generalizing. See how that works?

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Wait, let me get this straight, there's mmo's out there that make you wait in a q for an hour just to run an instance? Sounds like you need to find a new mmo mate. The games I used to play never had that problem. If I wanted to wait in line I'd hang out at the dmv or an airport, nothing like getting trolled by tsa.

What I'm finding since returning from my break from mmo's is that there isn't enuf group content. Not to mention that if you do group with someone you had a good time playing with there is little point in adding them to a friend list. Everything is so static level/gear restricted that the next time you are online with that person again, one of you has out leveled the other. It really doesn't help building any sort of community or gaming friend base.

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I think that every game should have enough PvE content for PvErs that want to solo or go at it in a group. I don't PvE but I know that lots of PvErs do infact, like to solo, but they usually get the short end of the stick when it comes to dungeons etc.

I myself, as a PvPer wish more PvP modes etc would have more soloability. More games, imo, need open world PvP and instances PvP which is not based on teams or factions. The only time I rely on teammates is when I have a group of premade players I know with me, or else I only rely on myself to get the job done.

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Oh man I remember the days of shouting for an XP party.. it was fun at the time, but now looking back after playing games that don't limit you to group progression, I don't miss it. xD

I don't get why you would want to play an MMO just to play solo all the time, though. IMO.. Grouping should wield greater rewards because you're using teamwork, communication, and you're also tackling harder content . That's also in line with end game stuff though because I don't think you should have to get a party together and go camp the same mob for 10 lvl's then move on to a new camp. And that's if you're lucky enough to even find an XP party. That concept is a thing of the past and should be kept there.

I like the idea of soloing to max lvl, but come endgame I am all about grouping up.