"So the design is done by little elves at night whilst the bikemaker and his wife are sleeping?

Yes, of course it is. Silly me."

Dear me. Differences in geometry in the frame cost nothing- if the frame has a different head angle or similiar then the end cost will be essentially the same. Having slightly longer tubes or different butting changes costs of course but not when you're comparing like with like. If you made a P7 the exact shape as a Soul the unit cost would be the same, or near as makes no odds.

As for designing the frame itself, do you think the Soul (or 456, or Genesis Altitude, or Dialled PA) were cheaper to design? Orange are the only company that pays designers, builds prototypes, goes through testing? Obviously not.

Ironic really that the Soul's engineering is a lot more sophisticated, since Cotic designed their way round the CEN problem, unlike Orange who just threw metal at it, increasing weight and price.

But is worth so much more than the difference in cost between the tubes.

I'm sorry to be blunt but there is no 'objective' measure of a bike's worth just as there is no objective 'rider'. Choosing, at random, to use the material a frame's made of is an insufficient measure, hence my mention of design.

As for designing the frame itself, do you think the Soul (or 456, or Genesis Altitude, or Dialled PA) were cheaper to design? Orange are the only company that pays designers, builds prototypes, goes through testing? Obviously not.

I didn't say they were cheaper but that Orange had designed a better bike for riders like me. Their design is better for me therefore I value the design costs of the bike over and above materials costs. The 'superior' steel that made the Soul was of less importance to me as I didn't enjoy the feel of the ride. For me, at least, the better design of the P7 is worth the extra cost.

As in most instances, subjectivity is where it's at when it comes to choosing the best frame.

HeathenWoods - Member
"As in most instances, subjectivity is where it's at when it comes to choosing the best frame. "

Almost exactly what I'm saying! Except that I wouldn't say "best", I'd say "best for you".

I'm obviously not explaining myself well here though, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a P7 at all- I'm just saying that on a cost basis they're not good value. And I'm not saying "Buy a Soul, they're better", but it's a nice price comparison, as are Genesis Altitudes.

There's no such thing as better or worse here, since as I say that's a subjective decision, but there is such a thing as better or worse value for money, and the things that make people love the P7 don't add to the price.

Objective/subjective - so what? All the above leads to one conclusion: you need to try em and decide which you prefer.
For what it's worth I prefer my P7 One. Biased you say? No, cos there is a Soul in the garage too.

ive had 3 p7 s,one great rigid one,one mediocre and a great 2007 one.....all of em nicked!
i fancied a change a this time got a soul build for around £1200,and was ready to compare and contrast and was surprised how different they were and was initially alarmed at how springier the soul felt as the p7 seemed to soak every bump up,however,after a few rides my conclusion was the soul is more alive,responsive,exciting and easier uphill.....every bit of energy is rewarded,mind you i felt that with the p7 too.i think with the spec ive got on the soul im getting better value for money but try loads and see what suites.

Again, I'd disagree. I found the PA okay but would choose the P7 over it anytime. Up, down, round and round, the P7 is a better frame for me.

I stand corrected. The P7 which I snapped was an 06, the first year they had the sliding dropouts and had orange as a colour option. It really did have rubbish geometry though heathenwoods, just out of interest why is your P7 better than your PA?

I'd agree with the car park lifting test feeling heavy, but once you're on the bike it feels great. Getting a p7 for me was about getting a long travel hardtail I could give some stick too as well as use as a commute bike, it ticks all those boxes, my previous hardtail was an 853 rock lobster which was a wonderfull ride, it was the bikes ability to deal with silly stuff that made me change and I don't regret for a second.
I'd narrowed my choices down to decade, cotic soul/bfe or p7 found a p7 second hand at a great price and no regrets

chuckle.I am super tame.
It's true I have been riding darn sarf alot.
I did come to the conclusion that the sub5 was a bit much for surrey/chilterns etc.
But the p7 is just a not much slower when I'm home in the lakes.
on tame trails.