Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

p.s. as usual; no worries if you don't want to get into it. Please forgive me if it was out of line to ask. Cheers, guys. Josh

I see Dan jumped in and commented already. Here, however, is the secret to what really makes it work. All IS/IP is based on the FM principle (F____ing Magic) and all you need to do is get with a wizard (Dan, Mike, Ark, ?) or one of their apprentices, to have the knowledge transferred to you via touch - the written medium has a curse on it that just will not allow IS/IP transmission

yes. the 'real thing' seems always to have this quality. anything other than the thing itself..is...something else.

Quote:

"Because a) training this way is about as much fun as watching paint dry, b) the serious work takes years to learn, c) there is no rank or acknowledgment in it and d) people have no vision for their own future outside of rank and fun in the dojo!" e)"This just isn't for everybody. Most just want to fit-in."

Here are some throwaway comments from the peanut gallery:
a) makes me wonder how the first guys ever stayed the course long enough to know it was worth it. There is the internal compass mentioned...that tells you that you are growing stronger, more aligned, balanced and 'bodily-free', isn't there?
b) Is the serious work in doing (a) for a long time and listening internally...following... 'the course', once you find the way to train? (i.e. just following the consequences of the body changes) Or, as I suspect, an actual syllabus of body training (knowledge and testing)? i guess if you ask secret ninjas about their secret techniques you will be deafened by the silence. (and/or poked in the eyes)
c) no rank=approval from others? but the value is felt in your body, isn't it?
d) ? Vision for the future? - you mean like having an actual method to stop and even reverse the 'normal'/'expected' mechanical deterioration of the body? I am just guessing.
e) fitting in? you mean like just nodding along and following others (the established 'normal') as a pattern? 'Not for everybody'...well MA is not for everybody...but from what I hear; it sounds like 'this' must be for every MAartist. Like Chi'imed posted a while back...the analog being the singer/vocalist who seeks to have perfect pitch (sorry ;couldn't find the very well written post)...here it is the MA who seeks to make a 'slide-rule' type precision instrument out of their body. (Sorry if I butchered the quote..i don't have the book here).

Like I said...just some thoughts from the peanut gallery.
thanks for the responses. you guys are really lucky.
have fun.
Josh

Here are some throwaway comments from the peanut gallery:
a) makes me wonder how the first guys ever stayed the course long enough to know it was worth it. There is the internal compass mentioned...that tells you that you are growing stronger, more aligned, balanced and 'bodily-free', isn't there?

More recent history. Jon H's own training has shown through by the comments from some of his students.

My history. While I wasn't able to tell for 6 months or so that anything was happening, it was quite an eye opener when I finally did get someone (a muscled prison guard) to try wrist locks and he couldn't get them to work.

The body changes. I don't "feel" the same as before. More importantly, not only does the body change but so does the mind and mental outlook. But, that's another topic yet to be discussed.

Quote:

Josh Phillipson wrote:

b) Is the serious work in doing (a) for a long time and listening internally...following... 'the course', once you find the way to train? (i.e. just following the consequences of the body changes) Or, as I suspect, an actual syllabus of body training (knowledge and testing)? i guess if you ask secret ninjas about their secret techniques you will be deafened by the silence. (and/or poked in the eyes)

As was discussed at the seminar, going off on your own in your training has an advantage and disadvantage. You could be doing something wrong for months. Or you could be working something right for months. Perhaps once you get so far into the training, you can understand better what to do or not to do. I'm not that far yet.

Quote:

Josh Phillipson wrote:

c) no rank=approval from others? but the value is felt in your body, isn't it?

Yeah. The value is not only in the body, but in the mind and the spirit. And it's felt both in yourself and by others. Aiki can be debated online for decades, but it only takes a few minutes for the truth to be determined in person.

----
*** It's worth mentioning here about Ueshiba's experience with Takeda. One account has said that Ueshiba ended up crying. I think people don't like to read that because they attribute some negative connotation to that statement. But, I don't believe there is anything negative about it at all. Takeda had aiki. I think when Ueshiba encountered Takeda, Takeda did whatever he wanted and Ueshiba couldn't stop him.

I'd bet Ueshiba was overwhelmed with Takeda's skill. So much so, that Ueshiba felt helpless and trapped. Ueshiba couldn't stop Takeda, couldn't counter him, couldn't get away from him, and frustration, being overwhelmed, being helpless, smothered, etc all contributed to Ueshiba's mental state.

Crying? Yeah, I can believe that. But not because he was a baby, but because he encountered a completely overwhelming situation. I think it also shows a greater character trait of Ueshiba that he ended up becoming one of Takeda's top students. He was so overwhelmed that he cried, yet he got back up, became a student of Takeda, worked through his physical muscles, and trained as Takeda taught. He recognized the rarity of aiki, the power of aiki, trusted Takeda in his teaching (you don't get powerful overnight and there is a lot of solo training), and kept working on building aiki.

There were many jujutsu schools, many sword schools, judo, kendo, etc out there. Yet after a very humbling experience, Ueshiba focuses solely on Takeda's Daito ryu and more specifically, Takeda's version of aiki.

Did he cry? Yeah, I think he did. But he was more the man for it and more the Budo man after it. Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo. No matter what happened, Ueshiba never forgot Takeda, nor the gift given.

Schedules
Two follow up one-day events are going to take place with Jimmie and John in N.J. this winter, one on my -to- Atlanta the other on the way back. That is if can ever get Atlanta scheduled!(I am waiting on deployment orders for my nephew)
Cheers
Dan

Atlanta isn't a good place to hang, lots of questionable characters loitering around, not to mention bad traffics. Charlotte is better.

...Schedules
Two follow up one-day events are going to take place with Jimmie and John in N.J. this winter, one on my -to- Atlanta the other on the way back. That is if can ever get Atlanta scheduled!(I am waiting on deployment orders for my nephew)...

Best of luck with all that. I'm meeting the Atlanta guys tomorrow and there's definitely a ton of interest there from some guys who love hard work and low recognition! Just let me know what you need from me.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I think its not so much balling your eyes out but rather being "filled up " with tears of frustration. I have seen it happen in MMA settings when newbies were completely dominated. I have made it happen in men who found they couldn't do anything while they were getting "handled" seemingly at will. It is a very unsettling feeling to be so completely dominated and frustrated and fascinated all at the same time. I don't name names, but it has happened to some of the readers here when they sparred with me or they have seen it happen. If people are interested in learning to fight it is a necessary fist step to see what it feels like to have someone go all out on you.
Once you get used to it you think your way through it and it is just another day at the office; familiar turf in which you can adjust and push through to succeed.
Suffice to say it demonstates both Takeda's and Ueshiba's respective skill levels at that time.

Being owned or tuned
I think this "feeling" of being owned and smothered and relentlessly kicked and punched and thrown is completely out of the realm of understanding of most martial artists-who never go all out in the first place- they "function" only within the confines of fixed arts, so it might be difficult to fathom. Of course that changes when you are taught to connect the body and move differently, and then shown how to fight with it. Like I said; for MMA training it's SSDD. The only problem for hip-driven and shoulder driven fighters, is having to completely change their game to a different way to move their bodies. They find they are "stuck" when they go to move. The results are more than worth it, but it can be veerry frustrating for those who want to go down this road.

I also think this is one of the key separation points between men who a) dabble in "internal power" for health and curiosity, b) others who only practice within "fixed arts," and c) those with decades of experience in using IP/ aiki in freestyle fighting- which is a rare skill.
Cheers
Dan

More recent history. Jon H's own training has shown through by the comments from some of his students.

That is amazing changes can happen so quick. I would love to ask, maybe not specifically to Jon, or any of you....but do you feel like..."How could we have missed this?"...or was it really an alien kind of a thing. Totally a new 'gift' that was given and shown. An extension to things ... or a bridge to a 'new vista'.
I'm at home sick today...this could just be the cough syrup talking.

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

My history. While I wasn't able to tell for 6 months or so that anything was happening, it was quite an eye opener when I finally did get someone (a muscled prison guard) to try wrist locks and he couldn't get them to work.

The body changes. I don't "feel" the same as before.

How do you feel? Would this do a fair job: 'full', 'connected', 'inflated', 'able to 'push-back' in new ways'...less inclined to 'collapse' or 'kink' in on itself? ??

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:

More importantly, not only does the body change but so does the mind and mental outlook. But, that's another topic yet to be discussed.
[snipsky]

Yeah. The value is not only in the body, but in the mind and the spirit. And it's felt both in yourself and by others.

This has been mentioned a couple of times. I would love to hear more on that from anyone inclined to share; especially you Mark, and Dan. I remember this sprouted off into a side topic on how 'testing-yourself in venues such as MMA or sparring' lead to sincere, mettle-tested men (and of course women) who know their worth. I recall also the phrase 'walking free in the world'. I hope i got that right...cough syrup clouding mind). There is a spiritual thread going on right now...maybe that is the spirituality of Aikido. This is something I think on. How does it change your mind? Determination? Learning your mind-body and its' myriad feedback systems? Spirit- Knowing and learning and embracing duty, diligence, ferocity, seeking. To butcher another quote by a good Doc: "Those that know they know, know. You know?" I am sure that level of truth and conviction cannot not change you. The feeling of control and ever increasing mastery over your body must be empowering. How has it changed your heart and spirit?
Where they envisionable before? Any unintended changes? Werewolvian or otherwise?

re: crying & what Dan wrote
--- like a flock of wild geese, i read. Yeah.. I can imagine how that suffocating feeling.. finding all that you are, and have, and do to be fleeting and of no import in the very moments you need it most....sounds indeed like the very definition of being utterly and completely helpless and alone. If that don't make you cry out in frustration i'm not sure what would.

Best of luck with all that. I'm meeting the Atlanta guys tomorrow and there's definitely a ton of interest there from some guys who love hard work and low recognition! Just let me know what you need from me.

Best to you.

David

Hi Dave
That sounds great. I'll call you in a couple of days.
To be clear I didn't want to do a "seminar" with a bunch of strangers I'll probably never see again just so they can check me off their dance card, BTDT. I don't like "dog and pony shows" and being another ingredient in someone's "beef stew collection" of what they call their martial arts. "Hi I'm Johnny. I do Aikido and Systema and Daito ryu and Iai, and karate, and, and...internal training, and anything else that draws my attention that I can completely suck at, but I can tell people I do it." Most people will never pursue this seriously enough to make a real difference, so I don't care to form any sort of relationship with them.
It sounded like you guys are already yaking with each other, and can vouch for each others work ethic and interest (Dmitri is another guy like that). So hopefully we can just get to work instantly without all the explanations and overviews. Then maybe we can form a group that can meet a couple of times a year to sweat together.I hate the heat...hate it!!, So maybe winter and fall.
Resend the list if you don't mind. I might want to add a guy or two to it.
Talk to you soon
Dan

I also think this is one of the key separation points between men who a) dabble in "internal power" for health and curiosity, b) others who only practice within "fixed arts," and c) those with decades of experience in using IP/ aiki in freestyle fighting- which is a rare skill.
Cheers
Dan

there is no easy way, huh?

May I ask you a question?
This is in light of how rare a skill it is to find an IP/aiki MMA fighter/and/or coach.

Did you have a good enough base in the internals and then hone your craft in the live setting? Like...alll alone? Or did you have an R&D department backing you up (i.e. where you kept your drawing board)? And people that could help coach/correct/inform?

So; considering branching out and testing the IP/Aiki you have built up in your body:
Is there a point at which you go out and test?
Or do you suggest concurrently?
How to make the decision?

Maybe one day there will be MMA gyms that can teach it all.
That would be pretty cool.

That is amazing changes can happen so quick. I would love to ask, maybe not specifically to Jon, or any of you....but do you feel like..."How could we have missed this?"...or was it really an alien kind of a thing. Totally a new 'gift' that was given and shown. An extension to things ... or a bridge to a 'new vista'.
I'm at home sick today...this could just be the cough syrup talking.

How do you feel? Would this do a fair job: 'full', 'connected', 'inflated', 'able to 'push-back' in new ways'...less inclined to 'collapse' or 'kink' in on itself? ??

This has been mentioned a couple of times. I would love to hear more on that from anyone inclined to share; especially you Mark, and Dan. I remember this sprouted off into a side topic on how 'testing-yourself in venues such as MMA or sparring' lead to sincere, mettle-tested men (and of course women) who know their worth. I recall also the phrase 'walking free in the world'. I hope i got that right...cough syrup clouding mind). There is a spiritual thread going on right now...maybe that is the spirituality of Aikido. This is something I think on. How does it change your mind? Determination? Learning your mind-body and its' myriad feedback systems? Spirit- Knowing and learning and embracing duty, diligence, ferocity, seeking. To butcher another quote by a good Doc: "Those that know they know, know. You know?" I am sure that level of truth and conviction cannot not change you. The feeling of control and ever increasing mastery over your body must be empowering. How has it changed your heart and spirit?
Where they envisionable before? Any unintended changes? Werewolvian or otherwise?

re: crying & what Dan wrote
--- like a flock of wild geese, i read. Yeah.. I can imagine how that suffocating feeling.. finding all that you are, and have, and do to be fleeting and of no import in the very moments you need it most....sounds indeed like the very definition of being utterly and completely helpless and alone. If that don't make you cry out in frustration i'm not sure what would.

i'm about a quart low on robitussin right now.

Josh
I am very reluctant to discuss spirit when it comes to this training as people draw their one personal conclusions to what they think I meant.
Any discussions I have about how this training changes you mentally and spiritually is not about a faith or about a personal belief in God-or any of the new age animist beliefs. People who know me personally, know I am a Christian and I leave that entirely out of the discussions. I am talking about the mental/physical connection in the body. How the mind/ intent/ body alters your own awareness in the physical world.

I coined the term "Living free in the world" back in the mid 90's to help define what IP/aiki was doing in me, mentally and physically.
If you think about your mind leading your awareness out from you, as well as drawing everything in to you constantly, and joining that with your breath- it gives a greatly enhanced feeling of awareness, relaxation, and tactile control of people interacting with you. It is too difficult to explain/debate on net. On contact you have the feeling that you can drain energy from them while cutting right through them If you train that continually with long weapons; your awareness is "out there" and your perception of tactile response is now 6-8' away from you and people feel like you are controlling them from a distance. There are various models for cones of perception and projection in different Koryu Bujutsu.
And once more.... no I am not talking about being superman, anyone can get hit S_____ happens. But this training does changes your game in tactical control of strikes and throws and as several people have told me "They feel like they are always one step behind what I am doing to them."

We can add to that how active sparring changes you mentally and emotionally, and why some of the most relaxed and stable guys I know are wrestlers (BJJ included) and MMA types, but thats a different topic.

I'll leave it up to you to debate spirituality in the martial arts in that other thread.. For the most part I have yet to see it create a physical effect on the martial artists I keep meeting. Aikido and Systema talk about forgiveness and self awareness and receptive ideas. I have seen that profoundly change some people on a personal level while the same attributes produced an abundance of passive/ aggressive personality types in others. All in all I have yet to see it produce the same stability and shear power and control in the manner I am discussing. But thats remains to be seen
Cheers
Dan

As far as the crying bit goes.
I also think this is one of the key separation points between men who a) dabble in "internal power" for health and curiosity, b) others who only practice within "fixed arts," and c) those with decades of experience in using IP/ aiki in freestyle fighting- which is a rare skill.

Man that latter one is the rub - I keep wanting to take more time to go play with the MMA and BJJ crews, but then life happens and then I find some other bad habit in my body I wanna get rid of and then I find some other cool nuance I wanna spend more time conditioning to rewire the body . . . the biggest challenge in mixing it up has been finding the nice balance of a pace where I can just let the body take care of itself rather than getting amped up and reverting to old habits.

Man that latter one is the rub - I keep wanting to take more time to go play with the MMA and BJJ crews, but then life happens and then I find some other bad habit in my body I wanna get rid of and then I find some other cool nuance I wanna spend more time conditioning to rewire the body . . . the biggest challenge in mixing it up has been finding the nice balance of a pace where I can just let the body take care of itself rather than getting amped up and reverting to old habits.

Anyways, sounds like you guys are having fun. Awesome

Hi Budd
I haven't been out to play recently- I've been too busy and also working on a non-fighting injury. I still spar with visitors and what not, but other than the occasional visitor -who has good fight experience-the "martial artists" all pale in comparison. They really have no clue what can really happen to them, and its hard to tell them that, so you just spar with them and it tends to shut them up right quick.
Like me you got the fight experience first, then found internals. So, If I may be so bold-I think you're doing the smart thing. You have enough fight experience to know what works-or at least has the potential to work. That is a huge plus over most traditional guys who are only guessing or following another clueless coach. I think stopping to work on it solo, then in gradual paired pressure, then going out to test it a few times, then back to work is a very good way to build.
Later, you might want to take it on the road with other internal guys. See if you can get hands on with master class ICMA guys. who like to play. Some will entertain it in a limited fashion; LCD, He jin bao, Lou de xiu, etc, You might find it interesting on several levels.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Hi Budd
I haven't been out to play recently- I've been too busy and also working on a non-fighting injury. I still spar with visitors and what not, but other than the occasional visitor -who has good fight experience-the "martial artists" all pale in comparison. They really have no clue what can really happen to them, and its hard to tell them that, so you just spar with them and it tends to shut them up right quick.
Like me you got the fight experience first, then found internals. So, If I may be so bold-I think you're doing the smart thing. You have enough fight experience to know what works-or at least has the potential to work. That is a huge plus over most traditional guys who are only guessing or following another clueless coach. I think stopping to work on it solo, then in gradual paired pressure, then going out to test it a few times, then back to work is a very good way to build.
Later, you might want to take it on the road with other internal guys. See if you can get hands on with master class ICMA guys. who like to play. Some will entertain it in a limited fashion; LCD, He jin bao, Lou de xiu, etc, You might find it interesting on several levels.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Thanks, Dan, I appreciate the comments - always a work in progress . . yeesh, but that's a nice progression that I've been giving some thought to as well.

May I ask you a question?
This is in light of how rare a skill it is to find an IP/aiki MMA fighter/and/or coach.

Well, I think we can go all over the map in discussing who considers what to be an internal fighter. I have met and or watched master class who I am not impressed regarding what I call "a fighter." I don't think anyones going to agree to terms.

Quote:

Did you have a good enough base in the internals and then hone your craft in the live setting? Like...alll alone? Or did you have an R&D department backing you up (i.e. where you kept your drawing board)? And people that could help coach/correct/inform?

Like Bud and Kevin I spent years doing MMA
I was doing MMA before the kids knew what the hell that meant, Judo, wrestling, TKD, Goju, then getting involved with the wrong crowd (I have been stabbed, sliced, booted, a number of times), then went back into martial arts and found IP aiki. Where I took it was to go home and try and make it work in grappling. I failed miserably for a few years. I learned this from the flat of my back. I tell a true story –where a Judo friend of mine approached me in the dressing room and said “Dan what are you doing? Everyone is talking that you’ve become a flake, one of those aiki fairies.”
Undeterred I kept going, and failing, and eventually.....gaining power and connectedness, not too mention taking DR Aiki to a level I have never heard of before or since for use in MMA. Three years later when I turned into a nightmare to throw, the same guy came up to me and said “What’s that stuff you're working on?”

Quote:

So; considering branching out and testing the IP/Aiki you have built up in your body:
Is there a point at which you go out and test?
Or do you suggest concurrently?
How to make the decision?

read my post to Bud above

Quote:

Maybe one day there will be MMA gyms that can teach it all.
That would be pretty cool.

Take care,
Josh

That's never going to happen. Western style power is quicker and easier to learn. I just trained a guy for his first MMA bout and I drilled him in ground and stand up tactics...all western style.
Then again it's interesting that I'm in my 50's and all the friends my age are fat, beat-up, and on various medications, and I am out banging and rolling with guys in their 20's and 30's and I can move with the speed, agility, and still out train men on the floor. Even at seminars they quite first.
So which is better? I'm not going to debate it. To date the most powerful guy I have felt was a taiji guy who was...70 yrs old! And he was fast and agile as well.
I'm looking forward to my 60's to see what I feel like then!
Cheers
Dan

Sounds like it was a very good event. Wishing you every success in passing on IS/IP skills to others. If you were teaching near me i would definately want to attend.

The Taiji teacher wouldn't happen to be Liu Chengde by any chance? I am thinking of heading down to Jinan next summer to study with him or his gongfu brother Li Chugong if they'll accept me.

all the best
Allan

Hi Allen
Nah I aint much. Your better where you're at.

LCD. Yes it was. I've told this story here before.
We sort of went at it. he tested me then started loading into me whenever I powered into him. He was unloading all sorts of shoulder bombs and elbows leg sweeps, throws, and traps and I just evaded , absorbed and redirected and stopped them all. Sometime in the middle of all that the camera came out and his son started recording it. At the end of four long hours he invited me to come live with him in China to share his taiji with me. The most I got on him was when he tried to lock me up with this arm bar -I bounced him back with the power he was putting into me. Otherwise we just kept canceling out each other. Naturally I didn't use kicks or strikes. It was my first time ever doing freestyle push hands with a ICMA teacher and didn't know how far to take it.
From what I hear he goes to the parks and just takes on anyone and plays all the time. I will tell you that his spirit was huge his charisma filled the room. I had a sense that he was a great and kind man. I also found out he taught two of Sagawa's men during a decade long teaching stint in Japan
Cheers
Dan

Thanks for the extraordinary posts.
I really appreciate your thoughts.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Like Bud and Kevin I spent years doing MMA
I was doing MMA before the kids knew what the hell that meant, Judo, wrestling, TKD, Goju, then getting involved with the wrong crowd (I have been stabbed, sliced, booted, a number of times), then went back into martial arts and found IP aiki. Where I took it was to go home and try and make it work in grappling. I failed miserably for a few years. I learned this from the flat of my back. I tell a true story --where a Judo friend of mine approached me in the dressing room and said "Dan what are you doing? Everyone is talking that you've become a flake, one of those aiki fairies."

Oh man! is that hilarious or is this just me? I keep reading that and end up giggling each time. i think it's really funny. although it really could just be the cough syrup.
either way.
It must have been an interesting time. I wonder how your judo teacher and the rest of the class took it. There must have been glimmers of future portents (i.e. strange moments where things 'clicked') .... the WTF / FM factor. I wonder; did you concurrently train IP/Aiki with DR all the while testing it in Judo? Was the judo club transformed at all by this? ..perhaps it was seen as 'only an anomaly'....or even 'just good judo'. Were you limited in the testing in the DR training venue ( I know nothing about it; as to how similar to Aikido practice it is) and you needed the 'freestyle' judo environment. Is DR the same/one-step?

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Three years later when I turned into a nightmare to throw, the same guy came up to me and said "What's that stuff you're working on?"

Whoah. 3 years is not a whole heck of a lot of time. Due mostly to Solo training? (then paired pressure tests and then freestyle).

Quote:

read my post to Bud above

I did. repeatedly. Thanks for that. I did not know; nor would have guessed that that was the pattern.

Quote:

So which is better? I'm not going to debate it. To date the most powerful guy I have felt was a taiji guy who was...70 yrs old

understood. That is amazing; the more you think about it.

re: "The Best Things in Life are Free"
You know the thought i keep coming back to; is that ultimately this stuff is free. Yeah; sure training costs $ (usually) and time; ...but the solo stuff....after you know it; it is free for you to keep doing it. No charge.
If it is possible that thee most powerful man you have ever felt was 70 years old (!!! amazing)....well...gees. This stuff, if widely known and adhered to; would literally change healthcare, 'typical' aging, and quite literally the world. The most dangerous place in the city could be the old age home; and we'd be hearing stories of the male nurses being abused by the 'little ole ladies'.

again; this grandiose post could quite literally be brought you by the grace of robitussin; so...just keep it in mind.
Cheers + Have a good night.
josh

again; this grandiose post could quite literally be brought you by the grace of robitussin; so...just keep it in mind.
Cheers + Have a good night.
josh

Some of the more insightful thoughts by people have been induced by injection of outside chemical substances that alter your realty; keep on your vision quest!

Seriously, you have some good questions, and if they weren't sincere, you would not have gotten a response from Dan.

As a beginner in this, I do not have much else to offer other then IMO I believe the mental intent part is the hardest to understand and the most difficult to teach since there are no clear points to measure and correct in the student. With the physical portion, you can see and/or feel if the spine is straight or the hips are forward. However, you can not see where someone's mind is - of course, if they are doing it right, you can see or feel the effects of it. But if they are not doing it right, how do you tell them to do it right? especially the mental projection for the cones of influence outside your body that Dan mentioned about in weapons use.

I am convinced that strong mental intent is the 'key' to effective IS ( and yes, there is a pun in there) However, there is no simple formula to apply that will ensure development of this - it is such an individual thing that each person just has to learn to recognize what it is within themselves, then work to control and develop it further to obtain the objectives of your IS training.

I believe that a lot of people just think that the 'internal' aspect of IS is learning the internal body moments - although that is part, I think the true meaning of 'internal' is related to how you can personally internalize the coordination of your mind with your body. To me this is the spiritual side of the equation and it does not have any thing to do with religion or other personal beliefs - it is the development of your spirit within your body that you learn to project to control yourself as well as others around you.

re: better living through chemistry; my intention is pure and i no longer seek my spirit animal. I found out it was a hedgehog; and it all fell into place. : ]
The robitussin is purely medicinal.

Quote:

With the physical portion, you can see and/or feel if the spine is straight or the hips are forward. However, you can not see where someone's mind is - of course, if they are doing it right, you can see or feel the effects of it. But if they are not doing it right, how do you tell them to do it right

...so....you can only approach it indirectly. (!) And in just this way it does and will continue to remain hidden in plain sight. So much of this existence's deeper reality is hidden in exactly this way. In physics we had a phrase .. "sneaking up on the problem"; when it did not yield to a direct approach/assault. I am also reminded of a (para-)phrase: "Who can know the heart of a man?"

Quote:

specially the mental projection for the cones of influence outside your body that Dan mentioned about in weapons use.

re: cones
Well I know of rods and cones; but that is not the type of vision or perception i think you're talking about. This is the first I have ever heard of what you two mention; so it shows how little I know. I'll keep my eyes and ears pealed. Frankly; I was a bit taken aback by those two last mentions of the importance of perception of the IP/aiki. I am one of those whose (poor) model of it is embedded fully and completely in the *physical* body. Certainly the mind and spirit are *in* the body (to one degree or another); and these factors must be central; but I did think of it primarily as a *bodily* training. The yi leads the qi of course..but a body effect. I didn't anticipate that; nor do i understand what you mean. but frankly; i do believe you that it cannot be typed out. so no worries there. i'll take it as a 'heads up'.

What you wrote reminds me of this; and I'm not sure why:

Quote:

Mary Heiny wrote:

While training with Hikitsuchi Sensei in Shingu in 1973 he told me that Osensei used to talk about how Aikido nurtured or developed human life. He then said 5 words, KI-IKU, CHI-IKU, TAI-IKU, TOKU-IKU, JOSHIKI. He said these were the five areas Aikido practice developed, that each of us needed to "grow up"
in the area of understanding KI, to increase our knowledge and wisdom through study and experience, to strengthen and purify our bodies, to understand ethical behavior and to be socially skilled.The practice of Aikido would help us in all these areas if we practiced sincerely with the intent to help
others.

Quote:

I believe that a lot of people just think that the 'internal' aspect of IS is learning the internal body moments - although that is part, I think the true meaning of 'internal' is related to how you can personally internalize the coordination of your mind with your body.

i am one that you mention in the first part of that. I didn't know. Would love to know more about the latter; but i understand it doesn't translate well over the web. No worries.

Quote:

To me this is the spiritual side of the equation and it does not have any thing to do with religion or other personal beliefs - it is the development of your spirit within your body that you learn to project to control yourself as well as others around you.

That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will have to think about how you wrote it; but it sounds almost like pointing to...like a mastery of emotion, and how it rouses (or can be used to manipulate) the body.
Don't know if that's what you were driving at....but I recall once reading that some of the stuff is likened to a man learning how to play his nervous system like a musician plays an instrument. That could be way off base; but that is what popped into mind.

Quote:

it is the development of your spirit within your body that you learn to project to control yourself as well as others around you.

Well; I can understand mastery of self. (to a point).
Can intellectualize control over subtle skills; queues; and mastery over mis-direction/trickery; but I think there is another side to this for a lot of people.. (not saying it's you guys! okay!?)
I wonder if this is a launching point for self-delusion in people. You know there are a lot of people that try to manipulate reality with willpower alone. (For instance: this is the heart of the 'commercial success' of a book called 'The Secret'; which I find to be a misdirection in thee highest order) I do not know what you are talking about for sure; and in fact; i don't think it's this; but manipulation of material reality with willfull self is the highest-law of the world's second oldest religion..
Also; it reminds me of how someone mentioned how Ushiro taught about the (importance of) eyes; and the lack of consensus; and just what is being pointed to. I don't know.
Personally; I have become wary of delusion with things concerning perception; for with 'training of the mind/spirit' the thing is...you are effecting the very instrument that keeps you grounded and keeps you tethered to what 'normal' is. Put simply ; if that 'instrument' becomes catastrophically/erroneously miscalibrated; who can say where it will take you? You certainly will be the last to know. (/rant)
/random thoughts.
robitussin. fnord.

anyway; thanks so much for all the interesting discussion; i feel like an oaf who's making a scene in a restaurant...you guys are the show; but it is so damn interesting; you'll have to forgive me for sticking my neck out and opening up my yap. i'll try to keep it down.
All the best,
Josh

p.s. Your website is very interesting and has some great launching off points. Thanks!

re: better living through chemistry; my intention is pure and i no longer seek my spirit animal. I found out it was a hedgehog; and it all fell into place. : ]
The robitussin is purely medicinal.

...so....you can only approach it indirectly. (!) And in just this way it does and will continue to remain hidden in plain sight. So much of this existence's deeper reality is hidden in exactly this way. In physics we had a phrase .. "sneaking up on the problem"; when it did not yield to a direct approach/assault. I am also reminded of a (para-)phrase: "Who can know the heart of a man?"

re: cones
Well I know of rods and cones; but that is not the type of vision or perception i think you're talking about. This is the first I have ever heard of what you two mention; so it shows how little I know. I'll keep my eyes and ears pealed. Frankly; I was a bit taken aback by those two last mentions of the importance of perception of the IP/aiki. I am one of those whose (poor) model of it is embedded fully and completely in the *physical* body. Certainly the mind and spirit are *in* the body (to one degree or another); and these factors must be central; but I did think of it primarily as a *bodily* training. The yi leads the qi of course..but a body effect. I didn't anticipate that; nor do i understand what you mean. but frankly; i do believe you that it cannot be typed out. so no worries there. i'll take it as a 'heads up'.

What you wrote reminds me of this; and I'm not sure why:

i am one that you mention in the first part of that. I didn't know. Would love to know more about the latter; but i understand it doesn't translate well over the web. No worries.

That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will have to think about how you wrote it; but it sounds almost like pointing to...like a mastery of emotion, and how it rouses (or can be used to manipulate) the body.
Don't know if that's what you were driving at....but I recall once reading that some of the stuff is likened to a man learning how to play his nervous system like a musician plays an instrument. That could be way off base; but that is what popped into mind.

Well; I can understand mastery of self. (to a point).
Can intellectualize control over subtle skills; queues; and mastery over mis-direction/trickery; but I think there is another side to this for a lot of people.. (not saying it's you guys! okay!?)
I wonder if this is a launching point for self-delusion in people. You know there are a lot of people that try to manipulate reality with willpower alone. (For instance: this is the heart of the 'commercial success' of a book called 'The Secret'; which I find to be a misdirection in thee highest order) I do not know what you are talking about for sure; and in fact; i don't think it's this; but manipulation of material reality with willfull self is the highest-law of the world's second oldest religion..
Also; it reminds me of how someone mentioned how Ushiro taught about the (importance of) eyes; and the lack of consensus; and just what is being pointed to. I don't know.
Personally; I have become wary of delusion with things concerning perception; for with 'training of the mind/spirit' the thing is...you are effecting the very instrument that keeps you grounded and keeps you tethered to what 'normal' is. Put simply ; if that 'instrument' becomes catastrophically/erroneously miscalibrated; who can say where it will take you? You certainly will be the last to know. (/rant)
/random thoughts.
robitussin. fnord.

anyway; thanks so much for all the interesting discussion; i feel like an oaf who's making a scene in a restaurant...you guys are the show; but it is so damn interesting; you'll have to forgive me for sticking my neck out and opening up my yap. i'll try to keep it down.
All the best,
Josh

p.s. Your website is very interesting and has some great launching off points. Thanks!

Hi Josh,

Wow, thanks for the detailed thoughts on my post. I initially read your comments while doing misogi in the the hot tub drinking beer - not sure whether it is the hot tub or the beer that clears the thoughts; must continue to explore that. Anyway, you bring up some interesting points scattered amongst your ramblings - must be some good Robitussin

At the moment, I have to cook dinner for the wife - she is the true gem in my universe (just ask her) so, I do not have time to provide the type of response your post deserves - give me some time.

Speaking of gems, keep that in your mind - I think your post touches on some important points associated with IS that I see as gems (items of value to retain) that can lead to a better understanding of the subject that I will share some opinions on later.

Josh
I am very reluctant to discuss spirit when it comes to this training as people draw their one personal conclusions to what they think I meant.
Any discussions I have about how this training changes you mentally and spiritually is not about a faith or about a personal belief in God-or any of the new age animist beliefs. People who know me personally, know I am a Christian and I leave that entirely out of the discussions. I am talking about the mental/physical connection in the body. How the mind/ intent/ body alters your own awareness in the physical world.

I coined the term "Living free in the world" back in the mid 90's to help define what IP/aiki was doing in me, mentally and physically.
If you think about your mind leading your awareness out from you, as well as drawing everything in to you constantly, and joining that with your breath- it gives a greatly enhanced feeling of awareness, relaxation, and tactile control of people interacting with you. It is too difficult to explain/debate on net. [snip]

Cheers
Dan

Agreed on the difficulty of explication of the term "spirit" in the martial sense. I didn't want to detract from or confuse the thread, but just thought I'd share with you something I've been told by Chinese teachers on their use of the terms shen and yi.

Shen is frequently translated into English as "spirit," and yi as "intent." Chinese teachers I've worked with discussed shen in relation to yi in terms of shen being a more diffuse, generalized, background awareness, with yi being a more focused field of attention, the focus coming from intent.

So when you wrote "about your mind leading your awareness out from you, as well as drawing everything in to you constantly, and joining that with your breath- it gives a greatly enhanced feeling of awareness, relaxation, and tactile control of people interacting with you" . . . that accords well with the Chinese model (obviously, actually being able to do that is a very rare ability, in China as anywhere else).

The corollary is what is happening to your opponent's spirit/shen via the effects you have on his yi/awareness. There is the direct electric-shock-like effect when you (as in you, Dan, or someone who can do it--definitely not me) return their jin or force back to them . . . DR-style locking up occurs . . . think about what that is doing to their nervous system. Or the similarly-disorienting feeling of falling into a hole (what you often call "ghosty").

So the terms, while potentially ambiguous, are referring to very tangible and specific effects on body and mind.