Last I checked, LOTRO is still going quite strong. SWTOR can't pull the massive following required to stay P2P. WoW is limited F2P, in case you hadn't noticed.

And, agian, you missed my point: EVE and WOW can afford to remain P2P because they have (1) a massive following and (2) have a staff and budget entirely dedicated to that project because they are the ONLY MMO made by their respective studios.

If the F2P model fails so hard.....why are so many companies going to it then?

Your argument fails. When you can lay out a better argument rather than parroting the same numbers over and over again, I might be compelled to listen.

Compared to how EA/Bioware are nickle-and-diming its F2P players by trying to get them to buy their user interface piecemeal to play... I'd say Cryptic is being exceedingly generous with its playerbase.

Let's be real here, guys. I'm a F2P player that was a former subscriber; I got the Defiant-R with my Vice Admiral token before they took those away, and I only subbed for maybe two months. I have yet to get a different ship, with no intention of doing so unless they release something similar to the Defiant but better.

I can log into the game and play without being annoyed to death by limited UI features and restricted content. I can fully enjoy the Rep system in the game, and get a slick helmet for my Tactical captain's ground gear.

If I buy something from the C-Store, it's something I can feel good about buying. Uniforms, bridge officers, a new ship, etc. I can enjoy my purchase. I don't have that freedom with many other F2P games.

Say what you will about whether or not you agree with their design choices (even with the changes, I'm still not a huge fan of the reputation system's implementation), but they try to get money from its players by having a game we ultimately like to play, and dangling fun toys in front of us. The game isn't without its problems, but it could be a lot worse.

Vesta ships pack.= Overpriced.
All projects,personal,starbase and embassy.=Extremely Expensive.
Cost of projects then buying items after projects are done. Totally not fair.
The dilithium allowances are far too small,and we are forced to buy it,to get anywhere in this game.This is despite STO being a free game,so we are told.
Free game???? I think not.
It seems to me that the costs involved are getting worse,and it does not matter if a fleet is big or small. The prices generally are far too high.
I hope that Dan Stahl and Mr Branflakes themselves see this,and i hope they realise,that STO will lose people,as they will be priced out of this game.

This whole fleet idea was a big mistake,sadly there are many in fleets who don't bother contributing,and they sit back and do nothing most of the time,while others end up carrying them so to speak.
Personally if it were ever possible,i would run a fleet with just myself and duty officers as fleet staff. end result is more efficient progress and no arguements with other players in this game,about who contributes what and general costs etc.

Wow ok lets see
Vesta ships pack.= Overpriced. so is a Ferrari but people still buy them. But unlike a Ferrari you can earn a Vesta without spending a single dime by mining dill
All projects,personal,starbase and embassy.=Extremely Expensive. no no again does not cost a single real dollar
Cost of projects then buying items after projects are done. Totally not fair.dont have a clue
The dilithium allowances are far too small,and we are forced to buy it,to get anywhere in this game.This is despite STO being a free game,so we are told.never never bought dilithium and i'm kinda.. well EC and Dill rich
Free game???? I think not. This is my favorite. It takes work to earn in this game. Takes playing the game to get the cheese! By your logic Maco Armor also cost way to much! It cost time just like any other reward. Would you prefer to have it given to you?? Then it would not be a game it would be a give away
It seems to me that the costs involved are getting worse,and it does not matter if a fleet is big or small. The prices generally are far too high.My fleet does quite well! Almost T5. Just takes a good fleet where all contributes
This whole fleet idea was a big mistake,sadly there are many in fleets who don't bother contributing,and they sit back and do nothing most of the time,while others end up carrying them so to speak.Then kick the lazy ones. Not the leader then bail and find another. Like you said "many fleets"
Personally if it were ever possible,i would run a fleet with just myself and duty officers as fleet staff. end result is more efficient progress and no arguements with other players in this game,about who contributes what and general costs etc.Are you F2P? then sorry you cant create a fleet I guess. Just you & duty officers?? Sound like you dont like the Multiplayer part of MMO. Try bridge commander! Great game!! Armada as well!

Last I checked, LOTRO is still going quite strong. SWTOR can't pull the massive following required to stay P2P. WoW is limited F2P, in case you hadn't noticed.

And, agian, you missed my point: EVE and WOW can afford to remain P2P because they have (1) a massive following and (2) have a staff and budget entirely dedicated to that project because they are the ONLY MMO made by their respective studios.

Your argument fails.

wow since when did you work for wow to know what shape they are in or eve sorry dude but your argument fails for you or i have not showing any thing to prove sto is failing or wow or eve

but again do they math of 14.99 and 10 mill paying and not to say 10mill buying there 40 xpack sorry but if wow gose f2p that 10 years down the rode for they have a big enuff player base to keep them going for a long time can sto really say that? game takes 1 year to get out a grindy rep system ? that most of the player base but the few CDer hated it you think sto doing so good you need to look around ya

Compared to how EA/Bioware are nickle-and-diming its F2P players by trying to get them to buy their user interface piecemeal to play... I'd say Cryptic is being exceedingly generous with its playerbase.

Let's be real here, guys. I'm a F2P player that was a former subscriber; I got the Defiant-R with my Vice Admiral token before they took those away, and I only subbed for maybe two months. I have yet to get a different ship, with no intention of doing so unless they release something similar to the Defiant but better.

I can log into the game and play without being annoyed to death by limited UI features and restricted content. I can fully enjoy the Rep system in the game, and get a slick helmet for my Tactical captain's ground gear.

If I buy something from the C-Store, it's something I can feel good about buying. Uniforms, bridge officers, a new ship, etc. I can enjoy my purchase. I don't have that freedom with many other F2P games.

Say what you will about whether or not you agree with their design choices (even with the changes, I'm still not a huge fan of the reputation system's implementation), but they try to get money from its players by having a game we ultimately like to play, and dangling fun toys in front of us. The game isn't without its problems, but it could be a lot worse.

and to add i see alot more rep systems coming to this game more then we will ever see in FE or just plan old story content unless it with a rep system

wow since when did you work for wow to know what shape they are in or eve sorry dude but your argument fails for you or i have not showing any thing to prove sto is failing or wow or eve

but again do they math of 14.99 and 10 mill paying and not to say 10mill buying there 40 xpack sorry but if wow gose f2p that 10 years down the rode for they have a big enuff player base to keep them going for a long time can sto really say that? game takes 1 year to get out a grindy rep system ? that most of the player base but the few CDer hated it you think sto doing so good you need to look around ya

but hey i have no life or job i can keep this up all day can you?

I can keep this up as long as you can. I haven't said the P2P system is a complete success, hell, I can name more P2P games that have failed than have succeeded.

In full disclosure, I don't just play F2P games, I maintain a subscription to FFXI.

I never said that WoW was failing, you took my words out of context. Anyone who's played MMOs for longer than a year knows that WoW set the bar that everyone tries to reach.

But--let me say this one more time and hope it gets through--WoW has a subscriber base of such size they don't HAVE to go F2P if they don't want to.

It's also the sole MMO published and developed by Activision Blizzard, which is a company of no small size. Therefore, they have the muscle and resources to reinvest EVERY dime WoW makes back into WoW. That means more frequent content updates and the like.

Same argument for EVE.

PWE, as well as many other Asian MMO companies and some Western ones, do not. They do not have the sub base that WoW/EVE does, nor is any one game the sole offering in their stables. Therefore, they must make up the revenue difference either by going F2P or by using a hybrid model.

Again, though, it is nothing more or less than an alternate means of generating revenue to make up for a smaller subscriber base.

Subscribers or players are not the sole barometer of a game's health, nor is the fact that games charge a fee to play at all fairly representative of the game's health. What matters at the end of the day to the higher ups in the company is, "is this game turning enough of a profit to justify the development budget and/or keeping the servers on?"

Doesn't matter how you get there, be it by paying a subscription fee or buying a metric crapton of stuff from the cash shop.

What do I have to pay for? I haven't spent a dime since the tholian lock box came out. Really, I've spent something like $40 on this game during the past year, and that $40 was due to having fun gambling with the lockboxes.

I don't feel the need to spend money for virtual goodies in a game where there is ultimately nothing really to do with those goodies. Hence, they only matter in your head because you want them.

You don't need any of it. It's pointless in the end. So, I just try to enjoy the game, well... whatever is left of it.

Just stop caring about some rare purple thingy that doesn't really have a noticeable effect on your gameplay, beyond taking you 4 or 5 seconds less to kill some mob.

The game is free to play. You don't have to pay for anything. And that doesn't bother me when the stuff is just stuff.

But if you are obsessed with some kind of uber rare thingy that adds mostly something cosmetic to your toon.... and if you feel some sense of entitlement to getting that thingy, then I could see why stuff feels expensive.

That tier 3 or 4 starbase. That sure is a pretty penny, that offers almost nothing that you can't do at ESD except maybe some new store goodies that add cosmetics and other things that make the game easier. And you get to look at plants or something.

Just stop caring about the purple junk and the game is completely free. Or, if you really do care about that purple stuff, work for it or pay for it.

Or better yet, just stop grinding if you don't enjoy grinding. Play some foundry for the stories. Stop caring about the worst aspects of this game and care about the good parts that are left, even if you don't get some virtual goodie for having fun.

I can keep this up as long as you can. I haven't said the P2P system is a complete success, hell, I can name more P2P games that have failed than have succeeded.

In full disclosure, I don't just play F2P games, I maintain a subscription to FFXI.

I never said that WoW was failing, you took my words out of context. Anyone who's played MMOs for longer than a year knows that WoW set the bar that everyone tries to reach.

But--let me say this one more time and hope it gets through--WoW has a subscriber base of such size they don't HAVE to go F2P if they don't want to.

It's also the sole MMO published and developed by Activision Blizzard, which is a company of no small size. Therefore, they have the muscle and resources to reinvest EVERY dime WoW makes back into WoW. That means more frequent content updates and the like.

Same argument for EVE.

PWE, as well as many other Asian MMO companies and some Western ones, do not. They do not have the sub base that WoW/EVE does, nor is any one game the sole offering in their stables. Therefore, they must make up the revenue difference either by going F2P or by using a hybrid model.

Again, though, it is nothing more or less than an alternate means of generating revenue to make up for a smaller subscriber base.

Subscribers or players are not the sole barometer of a game's health, nor is the fact that games charge a fee to play at all fairly representative of the game's health. What matters at the end of the day to the higher ups in the company is, "is this game turning enough of a profit to justify the development budget and/or keeping the servers on?"

Doesn't matter how you get there, be it by paying a subscription fee or buying a metric crapton of stuff from the cash shop.

It's still the revenue generation that matters, ultimately.

and i agree to all that but with a but how long can sto go with only geting out real content ones a year and now add what story to a fleet base aka rep system really i got to spend 2 + months to what get a 20 mins if that of story how is that fun the grind this rep system going to have me doing makes wow look less grindy and that is saying something i play more halo4 now because of the rep system for the last 2 season we have goting more grind system then real story