What does that show? That he didn't overtake a single car, one-stopped and finished the race to take his best result of the season? OK, looking at the quote that Against the Grain found from Stoddart, you'd say that run was good, but I am not disputing the fact that Alonso is a great driver. He's a fantastic driver.

Look, guys, I'm not bashing Alonso. I'm just saying that even the mighty god that is Fernando didn't look anything other than normal in a Minardi.

Against the Grain, please, when weighing into an argument, Wikipedia is about as low a resource as you can find to quote. For example, I could post an article on there right now saying that Liuzzi is directly descended from Jesus Christ, then link it and use it as "evidence" as to his peerless greatness.

Unfortunately, I feel I have to agree with arthurive. With the current team management, Liuzzi stands little chance of showing what he is capable of achieving.

And Jackman, I also agree with. That Sauber test was stunning. And don't forget the first time Liuzzi tested an F1 car (straight out of F3) he was in a Williams, in Valencia, against Pantano. Giorgio had already tested with McLaren and Benetton and had F3000 experience, and Tonio wiped the floor with him. Then, in a year old car, he ran to within half a second of Montoya in the new car.

What does that show? That he didn't overtake a single car, one-stopped and finished the race to take his best result of the season?

He stopped twice http://www.forix.com...20010017021&c=0 and finished ahead of HH Frentzen in a Prost and Olivier Panis in a BAR. That was a top performance for a still raw talent in the worst car of the grid.

Originally posted by tidytracks Look, guys, I'm not bashing Alonso. I'm just saying that even the mighty god that is Fernando didn't look anything other than normal in a Minardi.

That's simply wrong. At the start of the season Murray Walker was praising Alonso to the hilt and at the end of the season there was no sense of disappointment. Here's the Atlas season review 2001 for Alonso:-

"...at San Marino and Spain he outqualified both Benettons and at Indianapolis he added the scalp of Jacques Villeneuve to his list as he drove his underpowered Minardi to a season's best seventeenth on the grid. At Hockenheim he celebrated both his birthday and his best ever F1 finish when he took the chequered flag in tenth position. Alonso is a driver of real talent and his day will surely come."

Alonso had marked himself out as a man with a very bright future in F1 in his first season in a Minardi. Ditto Webber in his first season.

I was merely pointing out the fact that statistics alone do not tell the whole story. Nowhere did I directly compare Amon and Liuzzi, nor would I, because for as big a fan of Tonio as I am, I agree completely with you that at STR he has entirely lost the focus that had made him such a promising talent.

I was merely using the example of Amon to show that it is possible to look at a driver of his greatness and from a straight look at the F1 stats say, "well he was crap, he never won anything" when in fact the real story is so much deeper.

This is only his second full season of competition in F1, as the 2005 farce probably did more harm than good. That said, he scored points on his F1 debut after some ballsy driving which showed teh potential he might have had to do something special in a half decent car.

Name me one driver from Spyker or Toro Rosso who could have shown something amazing in the equipment they've had at their disposal over the last two years? Tonio and Scott's regular trips into the gravel have been spawned, I would argue, from overpushing in a car not up to the task, with team bosses demanding the impossible. I would argue that, given the equipment at his disposal, Liuzzi has sometimes shown flashes of brilliance, but that all too often the talent has been hidden by stupid mistakes caused by unrealistic pressure to squeeze more from a car than is humanly possible. Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.

sutil has impressed me more in his first season than Tonio and Scott in all the time they have spent in F1.

This is a win win for BMW. Vettel gets race experience, Speed, the burr in the saddle is out, Liuzzi will be further shown to be mediocre and will be out at the end of the year. BMW could then, in my opinion, run Kubica and Vettel next year. Heidfeld should go. Vettel and Kubica are rising stars while Heidfeld is on the downside of his F1 career. He's not going to get any faster/better and could go to Toyota, Renault or Toro Rosso or race in another category like DTM. Multi-year contracts are, in my opinion, realy the wrong way to go. I don't when it started but, I think, for example, Trulli was signed for 5 years. If a team, Toyota in tht instance, wants to get rid of him they have to buy out the last year(s) and all, unnecessarily expensive. Base a contract on performance - whatever the team's perimeters. Speed didn't produce, he whined (publicly), get rid of him. Liuzzi doesn't perform, get rid of him. Why hamstring yourself with a multi-year contract? What, Trulli wouldn't have signed with Toyota if he was on a one year? Of course he would have. Heidfeld/Kubica and Bourdais/Vettel lineups wouldn't be bad for next year although, like I said, Heidfeld should be shown the door (along with Schumacher, Trulli, Coulthard, Barrichello and Fisichella - none of whom is going to get any quicker).

Originally posted by scheivlak He stopped twice http://www.forix.com...20010017021&c=0 and finished ahead of HH Frentzen in a Prost and Olivier Panis in a BAR. That was a top performance for a still raw talent in the worst car of the grid.

My apologies, missed the first one.

I see your point, and I agree that Fernando is a great driver, but finishing 11th, 5 places out of the points is still nothing spectacular, not when the relative qualities and issues experienced by the cars and drivers he beat are taken into consideration.

As Jackman pointed out, Tonio overtook and beat Michael Schumacher in his first ever race, in a car nowhere near the performance of the Ferrari.

I don't want to turn this into a Liuzzi Vs Alonso battle, because I believe that both are hugely talented.

All I am saying is that in a Minardi there was no way of knowing that Alonso was going to be as good as he has turned out to be.

Similarly, just because Liuzzi and Speed have not shown flashes of intense greatness or won races, does not mean they are shit.

As I said from the off, Formula One is simply not that black and white

Look, guys, I'm not bashing Alonso. I'm just saying that even the mighty god that is Fernando didn't look anything other than normal in a Minardi.

Against the Grain, please, when weighing into an argument, Wikipedia is about as low a resource as you can find to quote. For example, I could post an article on there right now saying that Liuzzi is directly descended from Jesus Christ, then link it and use it as "evidence" as to his peerless greatness.

Unfortunately, I feel I have to agree with arthurive. With the current team management, Liuzzi stands little chance of showing what he is capable of achieving.

And Jackman, I also agree with. That Sauber test was stunning. And don't forget the first time Liuzzi tested an F1 car (straight out of F3) he was in a Williams, in Valencia, against Pantano. Giorgio had already tested with McLaren and Benetton and had F3000 experience, and Tonio wiped the floor with him. Then, in a year old car, he ran to within half a second of Montoya in the new car.

I remember the 2001 season like the palm of my hand because that was when Montoya entered F1 and indeed I recall Alonso was impressive. Just go back and check the season review of that year and you would noticed how many times he is praised for his performance by all of the commentators when nobody knew who this kid was.

and by the way I know that you are a Liuzzi supporter but honestly Speed is a better racer than Liuzzi, he demonstrated that it this year. I know Liuzzi has more raw pace, I give him that, but in most of the races this year when Speed started behind Liuzzi by the end of the first pit stops he was already in front of him.

Originally posted by tidytracks All I am saying is that in a Minardi there was no way of knowing that Alonso was going to be as good as he has turned out to be.

Back in mid 2001, I posted the following message to rec.autos.sport.f1, proving you wrong:

"Indeed. I've been watching Alonso since the start of the year. Standing at the braking point to turn 13 in Melbourne during practise, he was braking at the same point as the McLarens whereas his teammate (Marques) was clearly braking much earlier. If I can make a prediction - Alonso WC 2006 and 2007 "

All I am saying is that in a Minardi there was no way of knowing that Alonso was going to be as good as he has turned out to be.

yes there was. People that really knew about F1 back then predicted Alonso was going to be a force in the future. I did too myself. I knew back then that when the Schumacher era would end Montoya's biggest challenge for titles , if he would have continued, was going to be Alonso. I didn't even considered Kimi as good as these other two back in 01, 02.

Originally posted by tidytracks Similarly, just because Liuzzi and Speed have not shown flashes of intense greatness or won races, does not mean they are shit.

As I said from the off, Formula One is simply not that black and white

They are not shit. but they are not great talents either.. otherwise they would have been picked up by BMW, Renualt, Ferrari or Mclaren already. The reason Ron picked Lewis to drive his Mclaren this year proves that.

Back in mid 2001, I posted the following message to rec.autos.sport.f1, proving you wrong:

"Indeed. I've been watching Alonso since the start of the year. Standing at the braking point to turn 13 in Melbourne during practise, he was braking at the same point as the McLarens whereas his teammate (Marques) was clearly braking much earlier. If I can make a prediction - Alonso WC 2006 and 2007 "

Just to play devil's advocate here: that only proves he's better than Marques. Plus, the Minardi had 100HP less than the McLaren, but I guess the brakes were pretty much on par - hence you'd expect him to brake as late, if not later. Having said that, Alonso's debut season was widely praised as showing considerable promise.

It will be intersting to see how Vettel does in the Torro Rosso. I think he even tell us a little about how much
Sauber-BMW have improve. It is going to be interesting to watch this weekend.

Though I am not all impressed with TR treatment of SS, F1 is a cruel and flakey world, Scott knew that going in. It's a big leap from selling Panther Piss in a can to running two F1 teams and it is REALLY starting to show.

Originally posted by Jackman How do you figure that? When did Vettel become F1's official benchmark?

this is very much right. vettel is very likely to do typical rookies stuff - aggressive attack here, a stupid mistake here, bunch of slow laps caused by not feeling the car right on that particular setup (he will be driving a new car). it might be very hard to compare his performance with luizzi's, and speed too.

btw, anyone has the impression that he was let go from BMW after it became pretty apparent that he won't be on nick's or robert's pace anytime soon?

anyways, it's always interesting to see how a new guy will do - good luck to him.

I'm looking forward to see this! I wasn't very impressed by his work during the Indy weekend - but I think it was reasonable all things considered - but he should be able to show his worth when he's more settled and is more familiar with the new car and new engineers. For Hungary I'm not expecting much, and no-one should really. I think Liuzzi can be extremely quick, especially in qualifying so he's got a good benchmark there. How many of the remaining tracks has Vettel not driven on? Just Fuji? (which will be the same for everybody).

I wonder if STR took up the option they had on Bourdais too today? And if so when it'll be announced.Deadline for that (taking up the option) was today.

Liuzzi could experience "a new spring" from this, unless he's so angry about what happened with Speed. Afterall they were good mates, but I think he'll be able to put that aside, and rather focus on beating the newcomer.

...I think it's a bit strange how BMW took the chance to "announce" that Vettel would be in a Toro Rosso cockpit....

Originally posted by Jackman What exactly did Alonso do that was so impressive at Minardi? You could actually argue that Webber, the following year and in the same car, did a better job with what he had.

I wonder how arrived at that conclusion? Webber did a very stellar job for Minardi in '02, but for me there's never been a question; Alonso's 2001-season for Minardi was extremely impressive! He outqualified one of the B-A-R's once or twice btw.

I'll have some more info the day following the race- I'm curious to see how the treatment of Vettel and Liuzzi differs in Hungary. It's going to be interesting.

Originally posted by Jackman I still wonder how much better Liuzzi would be received by people if he'd had that [Sauber] drive. And I know that the team wished he'd had it too.

Absolutely- I think it was a huge mistake by Red Bull not to make sure to have him placed there. It would have been a very interesting benchmark, and I honestly think he would've matched Massa (with years of experience) very quickly and certainly would've been better than Villeneuve that year. It would've been better than starting at Red Bull, that's for sure. Tis the past, tis the past, but he still may end up with Massa next year anyway...just not on Sundays.

I have a feeling Vettel will be 'found out' at the coming race. It should be interesting to see who gets the new parts, though- eyes are being kept open.

I wouldn't expect Liuzzi to finish out the season with STR, either, if STR take up the option on Bourdais (and he accepts), as the atmosphere is very, very tense right now. It would be a very good idea, too, because nobody is going to shine in that car, especially against decent teammates.

I don't know if it's about who is going to be made to give up their seat or who will willingly give it up to persue better options.

I'm strongly doubting, though, that Bourdais is going to go to STR next year, having seen what happened recently and knowing what he'll be able to achieve (or, rather, not achieve). It would be a bad career move.

Originally posted by CWeil I'll have some more info the day following the race- I'm curious to see how the treatment of Vettel and Liuzzi differs in Hungary. It's going to be interesting.

I wouldn't expect Liuzzi to finish out the season with STR, either, if STR take up the option on Bourdais (and he accepts), as the atmosphere is very, very tense right now. It would be a very good idea, too, because nobody is going to shine in that car, especially against decent teammates.

@CWeil - you seem to have an awfully good source Do you think Bourdais will be announced tomorrow? If so, will he drive for STR in a GP this year - will he get into Liuzzi's or Vettel's car? What are the future opportunities for Speed?

No, Bourdais was the part of a very nice story (invented?) involving Ferrari and STR as a B-team all run by Junior Todt connections full of healthy nepotism.

I was not surprised when Red Bull was not so keen to sign Bourdais (well, they still have 4 hours to do so) - because of some political implications and because of the fact that Doornbos is supposed to be a rookie in ChampCar, but he is the main rival of Bourdais there, making Sebastian surprisingly nervous. The whole RBR know Robert very well, and I am afraid that certain comparison does not look flattering for Sebastian as Doornbos never considered by Marko and Co to be The Next Thing.

Originally posted by race addicted I've no basis for saying this, but I don't think Bourdais (and Todt, his manager) cares about what happened to Speed.

No, they certainly don't. But his manager WILL care about how the team treats it's drivers and how they talk about them in the media, because it could threaten his investment. That's extremely important, and it did not look good for STR team management.

Not to take away from that, but it was discovered after quali that the floor on the BAR was not attached properly, hence confirming what JVi was saying the whole time. The car was bottoming even in slow corners.

Vettel is 19, Robert and Nick are very young too. Get the kid some race experience. I have nothing against Scott, but this has to be an upgrade. BESIDES, it is clear this is Gerhard choice. He wants HIS man who he can coach in his native language. His upside is far, far greater than Scott's.

United- I think that's pretty well known in Europe. Bourdais is a very good driver, no doubt, as is Doornbos, but he wasn't even at the top of the ladder within RBR (though he did have some good races with them). Same could be said of Jani, who was an F1 tester for a while and was well thought of by RB but ultimately wasn't deemed good enough to replace the other Red Bull drivers, and he's done very, very well for PKV. I find it hard to take it all seriously when the championship is being contested by Will Power, who as well as he's done in the US lately, wasn't super impressive in Europe (in WSN, etc).

On that note, Rahal stands no chance of ever coming to F1 (like he wants) if he doesn't improve a ridiculous amount.

I do rate Doornbos well, but RB has better drivers in it's stables, in my opinion. I do believe he would do very well in F1, though, and is a super nice guy. Same for Jani, really.

Originally posted by JSDSKI @CWeil - you seem to have an awfully good source Do you think Bourdais will be announced tomorrow? If so, will he drive for STR in a GP this year - will he get into Liuzzi's or Vettel's car? What are the future opportunities for Speed?

I'd bet no and no, but it's still a possibility if Bourdais is stupid enough. If one had to give up their car, I'd bet Liuzzi would just walk like Speed did, which would be the best idea. Not because Bourdais would be too much of a competitor (I don't think he would, regardless of how much of a hard worker he is), but because enough is enough.

Speed's future? No clue- I'm not as connected to that side of the garage. I'm betting he'll be in the US next year though. But really, who knows.

Originally posted by race addicted Why do some of you assume that STR, if they've decided to sign up Bourdais, have to announce it right away? They could do that or wait till some time during the next GP, or wait several weeks!

...and they could even not take up the option on him now, and just weigh his pros and cons for a giid while longer, and still see if he's on the market in say, September...Several possibilities.

I had an impression, Bourdais was constantly thinking about July 31th. Before last ChampCar race he clearly stated that considering the fact the decision had not already been made, he was not really wanted in F1 by STR.

But Bourdais has nowhere to go, that's his main problem in my opinion. He can very well claim 4th title, than 5th and so what? Schumacher nearly destroyed F1 by his dominance, what would happen to the poor ChampCar?

I had an impression, Bourdais was constantly thinking about July 31th. Before last ChampCar race he clearly stated that considering the fact the decision had not already been made, he was not really wanted in F1 by STR.

Well yeah, but you cannot take for granted that he's NOT been signed up if he's not announced in the very near future, just because the option deadline runs out at midnight today.

Ralf Schumacher then, and possibly KingFisher, where, when and how do they fit in now, if at all? He could be why they may not take up the option on Bourdais. (Yet?)Cause they might want to analyse this more than they already have. ...and Ralf and Toyota may have already agreed terms for a contract extension, so....And I even think there's a small chance of Liuzzi being kept for 2008.