RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(19-11-2013 04:40 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:

(19-11-2013 04:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote: All you're doing is asserting that you're right and I'm wrong so nanna-nanna-boo-boo.

That is not true.

Quote:You haven't provided one iota of anything except trying to be an atheist e-thug.

Oh, look, the loving Christian called me a name. How....Christian.

Quote:Fact 1) I never asserted that my faith or God was empirically provable (in fact I said the opposite). I hold no burden of proof. You are the one asserting that Christianity is a fairy tale; therefore, it is YOUR burden to prove that.

You are DODGING your burden of proof. You have already admitted elsewhere that even the fairy tales you and other xtards can't get straight aren't "accurate". You assert the existence of your Gawd-figure, you get the burden of proof. You can't just wave it away with a bullshit claim that it's "not empirically provable". That's a bullshit cop-out.

Quote:I pointed out obviously wrong claims in your fairytale book about the nature of the world. I have said NOTHING about "Gawd does not exist". Put the strawman away.

I didn't say that at all. Strawman. Baby Jeebus cries when you lie.

Your fairytale book is what claims a flat earth the sun and stars travel around and sky fairies in the clouds. I've BEEN in the fucking clouds, I know there's no magical kingdom there.

Nope, you've done a lot of dodging.

[quote[ I have also provided sound arguments which you have not addressed.

In your dreams.

Quote:Instead, you just make quips and try to "bully" your way out of actually answering or participating. Stop playing semantic games and trying to do burden shift crap.

LOL, that's precisely what YOU are doing, Bucko!

Quote:You made a claim, now back it with sound evidence.

Bullshit.

Quote:What I want you to answer:

Show me empirical evidence that God does not exist as you asserted.

Fuck you. I didn't make that assertion. You are being willfully disingenuous and intellectually dishonest and you're getting called on it. No wonder you don't want to debate atheists any more.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(19-11-2013 11:01 PM)freetoreason Wrote: KC, I prefer reasoned discourse. I would sincerely like to hear you address the morality of Rom 9:22-23. If one believes in predestination, the problem of evil is centered on God's decision to create what he knew would be a fallen race in the first place. How was it moral for him to create vessels of wrath fitted for destruction before the foundation of the world? What of his motive in v 23, 'that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory'. Did god decide that it was a worthwhile exchange to have the non-elect suffer for eternity to bring glory to himself in the eyes of the elect?
I'm sure you recognize that these questions demand answers from believers and unbelievers alike.

What I said in the heaven thread:

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

--------------------------------

If He created everything, then He also created our morality. In that, God is in NO WAY obligated to our morality. God is autonomous. We are governed by His morality that He created for us, but He isn't governed by that same morality.

Heck, He isn't governed by any morality... God is amoral in a sense because there is no moral standard that can be compared to. Our immorality isn't immoral to God... like the shark.

So what we know as "evil" or "good" only applies to humanity... and certainly not God. An omnipotent being can't be governed by moral standards anyway because He would lose His omnipotence.

His morals are His own, His own standard, cannot be judged.

With that knowledge, it's easy to see how and why God created "evil" for humanity. It wasn't "evil" for God... it was a device used for His plan for humanity.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 01:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:

(19-11-2013 11:01 PM)freetoreason Wrote: KC, I prefer reasoned discourse. I would sincerely like to hear you address the morality of Rom 9:22-23. If one believes in predestination, the problem of evil is centered on God's decision to create what he knew would be a fallen race in the first place. How was it moral for him to create vessels of wrath fitted for destruction before the foundation of the world? What of his motive in v 23, 'that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory'. Did god decide that it was a worthwhile exchange to have the non-elect suffer for eternity to bring glory to himself in the eyes of the elect?
I'm sure you recognize that these questions demand answers from believers and unbelievers alike.

What I said in the heaven thread:

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

--------------------------------

If He created everything, then He also created our morality. In that, God is in NO WAY obligated to our morality. God is autonomous. We are governed by His morality that He created for us, but He isn't governed by that same morality.

Heck, He isn't governed by any morality... God is amoral in a sense because there is no moral standard that can be compared to. Our immorality isn't immoral to God... like the shark.

So what we know as "evil" or "good" only applies to humanity... and certainly not God. An omnipotent being can't be governed by moral standards anyway because He would lose His omnipotence.

His morals are His own, His own standard, cannot be judged.

With that knowledge, it's easy to see how and why God created "evil" for humanity. It wasn't "evil" for God... it was a device used for His plan for humanity.

That's quite the apologist pretzel. First, if the father and son are one, then god certainly is subject to the law, because only by fulfilling it perfectly can Jesus offer atonement for sin. Second, the assertion that God applies a different standard to himself, or is subject to no standard, is directly contradicted by scripture. As just one instance where we are called to emulate God's (the father) self-imposed standard, Matthew 5:48 'Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.' Perfection here is a moral quantity, applied identically to man and God. So are the terms holiness and goodness that are presumably essential attributes of god. Without a moral yardstick against which his actions are measured these terms are meaningless. Of course we are called to the same holiness 'Be holy, for I am holy'.

I do however agree that in the Rom 9 passage in question Paul does basically say, ok, this election stuff seems messed up to you, but god is sovereign and plays by his own rules (v20-21) 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?' Thanks for making me sinful then blaming me and sending me to eternal torture chamber so you can get more 'glory'.

So even if we go with the nonsensical and unbiblical assertion that somehow God is autonomous of the law that Jesus (god) had to follow perfectly and came to fulfill, where does that leave us? That by the standards he has applied to man, god deserves to be in the hell he created. But he won't be, because, well, he's god.

This nonsense, and trying to twist my mind around illogical and immoral defenses of god's character, are just a couple or the reasons I'm an atheist. Thanks for the reply.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 02:58 PM)freetoreason Wrote:

(20-11-2013 01:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote: What I said in the heaven thread:

Good and evil is subjective and not absolute. If "evil" is eliminated, there cannot be a "good" as you can't have something be moral without having something that is immoral. Basically, actions take on an amoral sense; therefore, there are no moral consequences for actions because those actions don't have connotative morality attached to them.

Much like a shark. Murder is immoral. Sharks murder, but they aren't immoral. Murdering for them is amoral because they don't have a morality to live by because "good" and "evil" don't exist to them.

So, all the "evil" stuff that is eliminated from heaven will leave only simple actions with no moral connotation.

--------------------------------

If He created everything, then He also created our morality. In that, God is in NO WAY obligated to our morality. God is autonomous. We are governed by His morality that He created for us, but He isn't governed by that same morality.

Heck, He isn't governed by any morality... God is amoral in a sense because there is no moral standard that can be compared to. Our immorality isn't immoral to God... like the shark.

So what we know as "evil" or "good" only applies to humanity... and certainly not God. An omnipotent being can't be governed by moral standards anyway because He would lose His omnipotence.

His morals are His own, His own standard, cannot be judged.

With that knowledge, it's easy to see how and why God created "evil" for humanity. It wasn't "evil" for God... it was a device used for His plan for humanity.

That's quite the apologist pretzel. First, if the father and son are one, then god certainly is subject to the law, because only by fulfilling it perfectly can Jesus offer atonement for sin. Second, the assertion that God applies a different standard to himself, or is subject to no standard, is directly contradicted by scripture. As just one instance where we are called to emulate God's (the father) self-imposed standard, Matthew 5:48 'Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.' Perfection here is a moral quantity, applied identically to man and God. So are the terms holiness and goodness that are presumably essential attributes of god. Without a moral yardstick against which his actions are measured these terms are meaningless. Of course we are called to the same holiness 'Be holy, for I am holy'.

I do however agree that in the Rom 9 passage in question Paul does basically say, ok, this election stuff seems messed up to you, but god is sovereign and plays by his own rules (v20-21) 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?' Thanks for making me sinful then blaming me and sending me to eternal torture chamber so you can get more 'glory'.

So even if we go with the nonsensical and unbiblical assertion that somehow God is autonomous of the law that Jesus (god) had to follow perfectly and came to fulfill, where does that leave us? That by the standards he has applied to man, god deserves to be in the hell he created. But he won't be, because, well, he's god.

This nonsense, and trying to twist my mind around illogical and immoral defenses of god's character, are just a couple or the reasons I'm an atheist. Thanks for the reply.

With kindness to you, I respectfully call baloney. Atheists are not atheists for theological reasons or disagreements with doctrine, and not this one, for sure. You could have been an Arminian if it bothered you so much.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 03:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:

(20-11-2013 02:58 PM)freetoreason Wrote: That's quite the apologist pretzel. First, if the father and son are one, then god certainly is subject to the law, because only by fulfilling it perfectly can Jesus offer atonement for sin. Second, the assertion that God applies a different standard to himself, or is subject to no standard, is directly contradicted by scripture. As just one instance where we are called to emulate God's (the father) self-imposed standard, Matthew 5:48 'Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.' Perfection here is a moral quantity, applied identically to man and God. So are the terms holiness and goodness that are presumably essential attributes of god. Without a moral yardstick against which his actions are measured these terms are meaningless. Of course we are called to the same holiness 'Be holy, for I am holy'.

I do however agree that in the Rom 9 passage in question Paul does basically say, ok, this election stuff seems messed up to you, but god is sovereign and plays by his own rules (v20-21) 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?' Thanks for making me sinful then blaming me and sending me to eternal torture chamber so you can get more 'glory'.

So even if we go with the nonsensical and unbiblical assertion that somehow God is autonomous of the law that Jesus (god) had to follow perfectly and came to fulfill, where does that leave us? That by the standards he has applied to man, god deserves to be in the hell he created. But he won't be, because, well, he's god.

This nonsense, and trying to twist my mind around illogical and immoral defenses of god's character, are just a couple or the reasons I'm an atheist. Thanks for the reply.

With kindness to you, I respectfully call baloney. Atheists are not atheists for theological reasons or disagreements with doctrine, and not this one, for sure. You could have been an Arminian if it bothered you so much.

There is no such thing as "atheists are this" and "atheists are that". We are as different as night and day. Only thing we share is that we don't believe in any gods.

You are 99% atheist yourself, you only believe in one of the gods.

I happen to have woken up to becoming an atheist because the one god I was raised to believe in was evil. He ordered genocide, he does nothing to help people, he sets up situations for them to fail and generally thinks people are inherently pieces of s#!t. That is what he created them to be and so he plays with their lives.

Then, after I decided that such a god was not something I could worship, it became clearer and clearer to me that all religions were fairy tales, including the one I was raised in.

Every atheist takes a different path, you cannot generalize all atheists to be this or that.

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 03:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote: With kindness to you, I respectfully call baloney. Atheists are not atheists for theological reasons or disagreements with doctrine, and not this one, for sure. You could have been an Arminian if it bothered you so much.

PJ, with kindness back, I'm an atheist wrt the Christian God in particular for two reasons. 1. I see zero evidence to support his existence. 2. I see much evidence that contradicts his existence. The points I made here are just a couple of many pieces of evidence that contribute to the latter. They highlight the absurd, immoral, illogical and contradictory nature of this particular portion of the bible's teaching. The apostle himself wisely anticipated that his doctrine would be considered such by thinking people, hence his argument from authority in v 20 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?' In other words, Paul instructs me stop questioning what is clearly immoral and unreasonable, and instead walk by faith, not by sight. Because reason stands so clearly against him.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 12:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:

(19-11-2013 04:40 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote: That is not true.

Oh, look, the loving Christian called me a name. How....Christian.

You are DODGING your burden of proof. You have already admitted elsewhere that even the fairy tales you and other xtards can't get straight aren't "accurate". You assert the existence of your Gawd-figure, you get the burden of proof. You can't just wave it away with a bullshit claim that it's "not empirically provable". That's a bullshit cop-out.

In your dreams.

LOL, that's precisely what YOU are doing, Bucko!

Bullshit.

Fuck you. I didn't make that assertion. You are being willfully disingenuous and intellectually dishonest and you're getting called on it. No wonder you don't want to debate atheists any more.

Taq:

If you represent the "new atheism" Christianity is safe.

Says the batshit nutjob child abuser who beats his children with a plastic hose for Jeebus.

RE: Don't Theists ever think about how insanely out of proportion their beliefs are?

(20-11-2013 03:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:

(20-11-2013 02:58 PM)freetoreason Wrote: That's quite the apologist pretzel. First, if the father and son are one, then god certainly is subject to the law, because only by fulfilling it perfectly can Jesus offer atonement for sin. Second, the assertion that God applies a different standard to himself, or is subject to no standard, is directly contradicted by scripture. As just one instance where we are called to emulate God's (the father) self-imposed standard, Matthew 5:48 'Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.' Perfection here is a moral quantity, applied identically to man and God. So are the terms holiness and goodness that are presumably essential attributes of god. Without a moral yardstick against which his actions are measured these terms are meaningless. Of course we are called to the same holiness 'Be holy, for I am holy'.

I do however agree that in the Rom 9 passage in question Paul does basically say, ok, this election stuff seems messed up to you, but god is sovereign and plays by his own rules (v20-21) 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?' Thanks for making me sinful then blaming me and sending me to eternal torture chamber so you can get more 'glory'.

So even if we go with the nonsensical and unbiblical assertion that somehow God is autonomous of the law that Jesus (god) had to follow perfectly and came to fulfill, where does that leave us? That by the standards he has applied to man, god deserves to be in the hell he created. But he won't be, because, well, he's god.

This nonsense, and trying to twist my mind around illogical and immoral defenses of god's character, are just a couple or the reasons I'm an atheist. Thanks for the reply.

With kindness to you, I respectfully call baloney. Atheists are not atheists for theological reasons or disagreements with doctrine, and not this one, for sure. You could have been an Arminian if it bothered you so much.

Atheists are atheists because we can tell bullshit when we see it and don't eat it.