Wednesday, September 12, 2012

Where Does JLin Rank?

He's constantly underrated by the so called experts, so this would be no surprise. I have him in the top 25, if not even higher. This may sound crazy high but hear me out:

He finished last year ranked 38th in PER. His per36 minute #'s are CP3 like:

CP3:
19.6
9.0
3.5
2.5
.1

JLin:
19.6
8.3
4.1
2.1
.3

CP3 finished 3rd in the MVP voting last year. I'm saying JLin puts up at least his last years per36 min. numbers. If he does this and as I expect, they battle for a playoff spot, he'll get MVP mentions. Many of the pundits have the Rockets slotted deep in the lottery. I'm not a gambling man but more than a few Vegas books have the Rockets in the 8th spot in the West. Maybe this is why:

The Rockets current roster looks stronger than the NYK "Linsanity" roster.

In terms of athleticism, the Knicks had Chandler and Shump, thats it. The current Rockets team is young and athletic at all positions. Besides Novak, the Knicks had no shooters. The Rockets don't have great shooters but a bunch of solid to good shooters, who Jeremy will make even better.

Finally, please remember JLin is 24 years old. You really improve at this age as an NBA player. He is only going to get better, a lot better. This is what I truly expect and I don't think there is anything wrong with having high expectations for a player with his talent & ability.

I think Lin is top 25 or higher at least, but if I had to put on paper I would go top 50. Just based on wanting to see what he and his new team will do. But I can live with his espn ranking without going OMG WTF.

Top 50 would be a middle ground between their and my ranking.

I would definitely like to see how he and his new team shake out. But his performances during linsanity were 3rd team all nba..... More or less.....

#1j, there is a workaround that I use in Google Chrome. Just do search on a particular date and hour (i.e. "September 13, 2012 3") that you read the last time (i.e. 2pm). Chrome will highlight it in yellow so you just need to use them as a starting point to read new posts. It's not perfect but it is somewhat a time-saver.

It's hard to rank someone when the player has not played more than 50 games, so the ranking is really irrelevant. Lower the better, so there is a potential for an upside rank next year. I do not believe Rockets will do all that well this year, let alone make a run for the playoff, mainly because they do not have enough time to mesh well together. Maybe they can make a run for the playoff next year.

Let me clarify. The ranking is not irrelevant, but I am more interested and rooting for that his ranking next year will be substantially higher because JLin would have played an entire season at a high level. To me, it's not worth discussing what JLin's ranking should have been this year. The fact that JLin has a good contract and a starting PG position, and has a chance to start, that's what matters.

I know this sounds silly but I thought lin should not have tweeted about his ranking. It made him look like he cared about it which I thought he didnt. Reason why people hate Jeremy is because of the "hype" . I like lin but I think he should not be ranked this high. Now he has to live up to the contract, the ranking and pressure from the fans. Just my thoughts...

He deserved to be rank this high no doubt. But i agree with u, he's not the smartest person when it comes to what he should say and what not. He should be more vocal about what really goes down in ny during his introduction with the rockets and the espn interview. he should not have said 85% when he can't even jump and cut. stop being so naive LIN! be nasty!!

I think you guys are reading too much into what he said. I honestly think he was trying to show his humility...I think he and we all know that he's better than 78th...frankly 78th is not that high. Is Jrue Holday really a better player than Jlin...I don't think so. As for the 85 percent, give the guy a break..he's 23 years old and he probably could have chosen his words better, but he was being honest (too honest I might add). It's also the NY media that blew this statement out of proportion...he couldn't even touch the rim.

that's why he needs to stop, or else people are going to take advantage of him like the 85% comment. He's clearly better than Jrue Holiday but his sample size are working against him. I just want him to be tough in and out of the arena, he got to stand up for himself and stop being so naive and innocent.

I agree with 777am. you dont understand. Lin has been seen as a "good guy" so the media would try all sorts of way to make him look bad. Let me ask you. WOuld the headline "lin goes to church" or "lin is out clubbing"attract more readership? It is always easier to create more controversy from someone who has a positive image. Trust me. That is why he got so much flak for that 85% comment but I felt that it was good that he did not play. people are already unhappy about his rank and potential inclusion in the All star game. That is why I think he should not care about it. In fact, I do not want him to be in the All star game because I want him to be motivated to work hard to that elite level but Houston is hosting it this year and it would be embarrassing if no players from the rockets were playing so I do hope he can do well this whole season.

I agree. PR wise, it would be wise for Lin to not mention things like ranking and stats (particularly don't volunteer when no one, like a reporter, has asked); let others do the talking. On the other hand, the #467 ranking last year is a completely different story.

@Mint, I'm not sure what "I don't understand"..I agree that Lin needs to be more careful with the media especially with the 85 percent thing. My point was that he is a young guy, and 99 percent of what he has said to the media has been impeccable...other than that statement, I don't think he has said anything really wrong especially with all of the controversy (Melo, Dantoni getting fired, etc). I agree that he needs to be more careful. I strongly disagree that commenting on his rank makes him look bad at all. In fact, I think his humility is what distinguishes him from many of the other arrogant jerk athletes in the NBA. Also, creating a nasty public image is not the way to go...he will alienate a lot of fans who are drawn to his clean-cut holistic image. However, on the court, he needs to learn to be really "nasty"..that's what counts.

I really think that was his humility..... cuz... HE GETS PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO.... wait for it.... PLAY BASKETBALL.

He is truly blessed to get paid so much to play a game. Everyone in the NBA. So blessed. Sure it's all relative in the real world.... keeping up the jonses.... 1st world problems.... and double standards abound.... but damn..... you got people scrubbing toilets to feed a family of 8.... You feel?

Lin should be an all-star if he proves to be a TOP 3 or 4 PG in the WEST. No doubt he's a good player but is he more deserving than NASH, WESTBROOK, PARKER, PAUL and LAWSON. If Lin deserves it more than those guys then yes. But it would not be justifiable for him to make the all-star team just because of the VOTES. Maybe he'll make the 2014 All star team.

knowing espn I'm surprised they ranked him 78... I know jlin could be a top player but for now it's quite early to get a top 25 but it would be fair to be ranked in the top 50 or even higher.

They let him go to houston because they think people will forget him if he will not perform well ... And they're wrong. Because jeremy proved he can do great things and now he's the main man ... If God still walks with him we'll have so much fun on and off the court .... I just fear the refs ....

Its nice to see him ranked in the top 80, but I know he is gonna be ranked in the top 20 next year. I m guessing his stats for this season is gonna be around:

21 pt 9 ast 4.5 rb 2 st

As for the Rockets, I think they will be around #10-7 in the West. They might start slow but should pick up after the all-star break. I really think making the playoff isnt as far fetch as some people think.

I feel that rank #78 is just about right. Ranking Lin the for the last season couldn't have been easy because:

1. Lin did absolutely fantastic for 3 weeks with the bench teammates.2. Lin's returning superstar didn't want play and tanked games for Lin's "malifit".3. With Woodson on board, Lin was marginalized but not as much as W wanted.4. Lin got injured, missed 30 games (but with W, Lin's production would have been mild).5. As you can see, Lin's circumstances caused his playing to swing wildly.

I think it will help Jeremy Lin, although just a little, that LeBron has parted ways with Creative Artists Agency. This now makes it harder for the CAA to inch towards totally ''owning" the NBA. If the officiating favors one team in key moments, the other power broker (which will be LeBron's friend's new agency, klutch Sports Management) will question and vice versa...... the same thing with covert bounty programs.

Tellem and his firm seems like 'normal' agent/agency, i.e., unlike CAA, there are no signs that they play dirty or exert undue influence on or manipulate NBA games (not talking about teams deliberately tanking for lottery or playoff standing - which every team in the similar situation does).

I like the fact that Jeremy and some other players go with small-time agents (Lin still kept his agent and added another due to his need). I hate a Walmart in any industry.

After finding out that leBron's agent, Rich Paul (who is also his personal friend), opened his own agency firm after learning the ropes with the CAA, it's a smart idea. A while back, I'd read that LeBron also did a really smart thing by firing all MBA-degreed big shots and replaced them with his own friends (for his own marketing firm)- and they have performed BETTER than the much more educated people. I command him for that. But typically business and friends don't mix..... [It still does not change the fact that I absolutely believe there were conspiracy against Lin by a group that included LeBron and Carmelo].

neph -- NO! Stop telling me to stop my conspiracy theory!!!!!*$# The 'theory' in this case was a virtual observable fact!!!!! Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning?!?! That, along with a number of circumstantial evidence!!!!!

And stop telling everybody in this forum to stop whatever they are thinking and posting!!!!!!

You are NOT THE BOSS HERE!!!!!!1 Get it? If not get it!!!!If you don't want to get it, then tough..... because you're not the boss!!!!! It's apparent that you're used to bossing people around (perhaps your personal friends or significant other), but you're out of luck in this more intelligent forum.

Sorry if I came quite bossy to you. But my point is that the theory that LIN got "targeted" by some players is just beyond delusional and incoherent.

"I absolutely believe there were conspiracy against Lin by a group that included LeBron and Carmelo"

So why would Lebron really target LIN? You suggested that Lebron will waste his time with LIN (no offense to Lin)?This conspiracy theories make it seem that every single player in the NBA HATES/DESPISES JLIN. Why would Lebron or other superstars conspire with each other just to embarrass LIN. Those players outside the KNICKS have too much to do in their respective teams to even worry about LIN.

I'm not ordering you to stop but this illogical accusations on a great player (Lebron) has to stop. We do not want anyone to destroy LIN's reputation but we also should not try to ruin the reputation of others.

"The 'theory' in this case was a virtual observable fact"- What observable fact? There are no evidences that prove that players like Lebron tried to sabotage LIN. They were competitive against him because of the attention LIN is getting but they were not jealous of him or something. He was treated differently by the defense because it was difficult to guard him one-on-one.

Conclusion:

There is absolutely no evidence that players like Lebron conspired with each other against LIN. I'm suggesting that we should stop this black propaganda against every single player. It is hypocrisy to expect others to stop the black propaganda against JLin but we ourselves participate on these activities against the likes of Lebron.

"The whole NBA has targeted Lin. It would be a conspiracy NOT to say that Lin isn't being targeted by Lebron and Carmelo Anthony. Even Lin's Knick teammates targeted him! "- Again, do you have evidence ? Conspiracy theories do not count as evidence. Where are those cold and hard facts? As long as there are no evidence , then it is not true. That is how the world operates so people have to deal with that REALITY.

"As the single most targeted player I've ever seen in NBA history, Lin rose up and stood his ground. I've never seen anything like it in my decades of watching NBA basketball. "

- No he isn't the most targeted player in the NBA History. You are now really taking exaggeration to the next level.

You also have direct quotes from players around the league talking about their strategies, defensive schemes, energy, excitement, and commitment to shutting down Lin the 700 k d-league draft reject.... Sounds like targeting........ hrmmmmmm.

Woodson wanted to bench him, Anthony and Stoudemire publicly admitted to tanking on Lin, and the whole league is talking about how they're gonna Linbarrass the Rockets next season.

I guess there's no "conspiracy" from the standpoint that secrecy usually accompanies conspiracies. It's an open and publicly stated TRUTH that people are targeting Jeremy Lin, so there's nothing secret about that!

What an utter racist insult it is for neph to say that all those All Stars and Hall of Famers were targeted worse than Lin.

I don't see anybody making fun of Michael Jordan's race or saying that Shaq's penis is small. I don't see guys ganging up Magic Johnson and headhunting him with hard fouls. I could go on and on with neph's cockamamie list of REF PROTECTED SUPERSTARS.

Opponents have been headhunting Lin. Coaches are trying to throttle him with double and triple teams. Lin's own teammates are flaming him in the press and actively trying to make him look bad on the court. And this neph idiot tries to PRETEND none of that exists???

This is not your typical flameboy racist stuff here. neph's hatred of Lin and his fans is something MUCH WORSE.

You ask me who are the more targeted players. So, I gave you a list of players who received more attention on the defensive end. I didn't really account for the racism and other stuff. I merely based it on how much defense they attract.

Compared to the likes of Dragic, Conley, Lowry, Wall and others, Lin definitely attracts more defense. But compared to the all-time greats, he is not more targeted.

Did I even mention anything about his race?LOL at you KHuang. I'm a Lin fan and all of a sudden I'm a racist and a hater because I do not believe the conspiracy theories. I do not need to accuse anyone to become a fan of Lin you know. If they are true, Do we even have sufficient proof? I didn't see them yet. Like I've said, the extra defense was due to the hype. Of course, opponents will be extremely motivated against special players like Lin. That is called competitive edge. He may have received some uncalled flagrant fouls but it was not like every single player played dirty against him.

>> You suggested that Lebron will waste his time with LIN (no offense to Lin)?

How was LeBron wasting his time? The two team had to play against each other anyway. The Heat just played very differently against Lin (whom gave their pal Carmelo "trouble") than they did against ANY OTHER starting point guards in the league.

>> This conspiracy theories make it seem that every single player in the NBA HATES/DESPISES JLIN.

That's YOUR faulty blurb in order to argue around circles. Nobody here said or insinuated that because that would be plain silly.

>> Those players outside the KNICKS have too much to do in their respective teams to even worry about LIN.

My response is THE EXACT SAME as the FIRST ITEM

>> What observable fact?

There were actually a numerous statements, implications, attitudes and actions on and off the court - but you wouldn't know about that (and too much to assemble here).... People like you, when you're biased against or in favor of someone, always like to say "Prove it!" - Just like the jury who acquitted Casey Anthony of murdering her 2-year-old daughter. Circumstantial evidence is an evidence (*circumstantial" is the adjective, but *evidence* is THE NOUN), but because it's a vastly weaker evidence than DNA or video/audio tape, there must be a pattern or a string of *circumstantial evidence* to find one guilty..... People doing shady things do not advertise their deeds, but they can leave clues in their actions, words and attitudes.

>> He was treated differently by the defense because it was difficult to guard him one-on-one.

Yet so many people, including "the group" who an effectuate things, either actually said or in so many words that Lin was/is overrated. AND - It's very unusual that an "overrated D-leaguer" minimum-wage then-virtual-newbie was repeatedly double and even triple-teamed in "that game", WHILE leaving the $20 million "Carmelo, the face of the franchise" scott free alone! AND - until the game was decided, they played like it was the Knicks *and* the heat AGAINST Jeremy Lin!!!!! We later found out (upon D'Antoni's departure) that "some players weren't buying in" or "not everyone was buying in" according to their own words. AND opposing teams played against Lin like it was the 7th game of the NBA finals!!!! THEREFORE, Yes, a lot of people feel that there was conspiracy. But you don't have to agree with me. And I don't we don't have to agree with you. But you can't effectively order anyone from mentioning anything you don't like; your middle name should be *Stop*.

I disagree with you because you used the term Conspiracy. You should have used Competition. Lebron and other opponents were merely being competitive. What do you expect from them? take it easy? He received extra attention because he cannot be guarded 1 on 1. Not because of some Conspiracy.

".... every single player in the NBA" is YOUR OWN WORDS, in an attempt to support your own narrative. KHuang merely stated the fact that "The whole NBA has targeted Lin." Those two statements are very different.

So you mean the likes of Nash, Dirk, Durant and others will target Lin just because of his race ? There may be some immature players who does not like Lin just because of his race but you cannot generalize all of the NBA. There are other players that treat LIN as a star so they apply different defensive schemes against LIN. Some players have publicly praised LIN. What about those players? Are they going to target lin just because of his race?

Maybe other players just feel more competitive against LIN because he is very good?Not Everybody is out to get Lin (maybe some but not the whole NBA)

One definition of conspire on google: "(of events or circumstances) Seem to be working together to bring about a particular result, typically to someone's detriment."

Seems to me on this definition that many in the NBA including non players were conspiring against Lin. Many in the NBA may or may not have worked together in he sense that they actually discussed working against JLin. I do suspect that some did actually discuss working against Lin if not through performance on the court, at least off the court (such as JR Smith and Melo who seems to have done both). Even if they did not explicitly discuss working together, I would say an implicit understanding constitutes working together to conspire. My opinion is that either way of working together can amount to conspiracy.

Competition may explain why some players were extra motivated to play hard. They "feel more competitive against Lin because he is very good." They didn't want to be embarrassed.

It is hard to ignore for those following Lin closely this season, and indeed throughout his career, that many players also become extra competitive for other reasons (other than that Lin is a very good player.) For some players, it may be that they played extra hard because they did not want to be shown up by someone who they felt was an inferior player.

There may be different reasons that I can only guess as to why these players felt they were better than Lin. Perhaps its his young age. Perhaps its his inexperience. Perhaps its his (perceived) timid demeanor. Perhaps its his DLeaguer background. Perhaps its his race.

If it is for the last type of reason that they felt Lin was an inferior player, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that they competed extra hard against Lin for racial reasons.

Competition however does not completely explain why some in the NBA, such as coach W and teammates, conspired against Lin. Jealousy and commercial/marketing concerns may explain why some of Lin's own teammates were working against him.

Some other NBA members may have conspired against Lin because they wanted to "kill the hype" around Lin. Why would they want to kill the hype around Lin? I don't recall teams and teammates trying with the same effort level to kill the hype around other superstars at the time they were first blossoming or having break out seasons.

Similar reasons such as young age, jealousy, marketing competition, opportunity to make a name, or racial discrimination may explain why many players in the NBA seemed to have conspired to kill the hype around Lin.

With the helpful explanation of circumstantial evidence by @ztrta, I feel that whatever their motivation for stopping Lin, for those who followed Lin's progress this season, it would not be illogical to say that at least many coaches and players on and off Lin's team in the NBA conspired to block Lin's progress. They blocked Lin's career progress in a way that is rarely seen for any other player, as @KHuang points out.

The original claim was that Melo and Lebron conspired against Lin. Personally, I don't recall Lebron making too many comments on Lin so I cannot say that I absolutely believe Lebron was working against Lin. If we accept that Lin as a CAA outsider was posing a serious threat to Melo and Lebron's statuses as two of the poster boys of the NBA, it would not be unreasonable to believe in a conspiracy theory involving at least the two. Melo and Lebron are also good friends and respect each other, which adds more to the case that they two would work together.

In any case, conspiracy theories are kinda fun. Why not discuss them?

"Circumstantial evidence is an evidence (*circumstantial" is the adjective, but *evidence* is THE NOUN), but because it's a vastly weaker evidence than DNA or video/audio tape, there must be a pattern or a string of *circumstantial evidence* to find one guilty....." - lol did neph just get lawyered?

"It is hard to ignore for those following Lin closely this season, and indeed throughout his career, that many players also become extra competitive for other reasons (other than that Lin is a very good player.) For some players, it may be that they played extra hard because they did not want to be shown up by someone who they felt was an inferior player."

"There may be different reasons that I can only guess as to why these players felt they were better than Lin. Perhaps its his young age. Perhaps its his inexperience. Perhaps its his (perceived) timid demeanor. Perhaps its his DLeaguer background. Perhaps its his race."

- You are merely speculating. There may be some who did it due to race but you cannot say the WHOLE NBA targeted LIN as some people here are blindly accepting.

"Competition however does not completely explain why some in the NBA, such as coach W and teammates, conspired against Lin. Jealousy and commercial/marketing concerns may explain why some of Lin's own teammates were working against him."- Do you have evidence on this? Again, we cannot just form our own conspiracy theories and assume they are the TRUTH. Coach Woodson was actually help Lin a lot. He minimized the exposure of his weaknesses. He did not overused him like Coach Dantoni. He used him to finish 4th quarters and he still managed to make Lin a major part of their offense. Woodson merely created a floor balance. He made sure that the stars were utilized appropriately. He made sure that every weapon was used sufficiently.

"With the helpful explanation of circumstantial evidence by @ztrta, I feel that whatever their motivation for stopping Lin, for those who followed Lin's progress this season, it would not be illogical to say that at least many coaches and players on and off Lin's team in the NBA conspired to block Lin's progress. They blocked Lin's career progress in a way that is rarely seen for any other player, as @KHuang points out."

- It is not illogical but it still doesn't make it the TRUTH. We cannot make a lot of assumptions. We have no evidence (Hard Evidence without so many assumptions)

"If we accept that Lin as a CAA outsider was posing a serious threat to Melo and Lebron's statuses as two of the poster boys of the NBA, it would not be unreasonable to believe in a conspiracy theory involving at least the two."- Well, you are again assuming that Lin posed a serious threat. It may be possible but is it the TRUTH. What if it is not true? Then, that makes your conspiracy theory totally invalid. See, you are relying too much on your assumptions.

"Melo and Lebron are also good friends and respect each other, which adds more to the case that they two would work together."

- Now, you are just trying to make a connection. It may be possible but again, it doesn't make it true. It may be logical but it is not the TRUTH.

Your circumstantial evidences rely on the validity of your assumptions. What if those assumptions were incorrect. Then, your whole argument is invalid.

"Now, you are just trying to make a connection. It may be possible but again, it doesn't make it true. It may be logical but it is not the TRUTH."

I am not trying to establish that its the conclusive truth between those two. I said "Personally, I don't recall Lebron making too many comments on Lin so I cannot say that I absolutely believe Lebron was working against Lin." I don't claim its necessarily the truth. I claim that it would not be surprising between the two considering those connections.

"It is not illogical but it still doesn't make it the TRUTH. We cannot make a lot of assumptions. We have no evidence (Hard Evidence without so many assumptions)"

Circumstantial evidence is not equal to assumption. With regards to generally whether there are groups in the NBA which conspire against Lin, if you have followed Lin's season closely, there is plenty circumstantial evidence that some conspiracy has been going on.

There are a lot of first time readers that don't have the time to reread the mountains of posts written previously on this subject.

That said, keep in mind that Neph here is not interested in debating with you or any of us. He is strictly here to FLAME YOU. The sooner you understand that, the easier a time you'll have with his flip flopping and refusal to accept hard facts.

They are still circumstantial. I cannot accept those kind of evidence.

Bottomline, there may be some players that do not like Lin because of his race but we cannot say the whole NBA targeted LIN. there are still players like Nash, Dirk, Durant and Paul that have praised Lin for his success.

Regarding Lebron and Melo, what are your evidence? Lebron and Melo were friends but are those enough to prove they work together to sabotage LIN.

What evidence do you have against MELO? You assume that Melo "sabotaged" Lin because Lin struggled as Melo came back. Maybe because they faced tougher opponents. Maybe because the HEAT was just that good defensively. Maybe teams started to study LIN. Everybody can adjust to everybody. Maybe because LIN lost some aggressiveness because he felt that he should get MELO involved. Maybe because he deferred too much.So, your circumstantial evidences are not absolute. They can still be valid.

You admitted that is not the TRUTH, therefore we should not treat it like the TRUTH. Some people treat it like it is the FACT (like KHuang just mentioned above).

So, LIN may have been a victim of a conspiracy but you already admitted that is not necessarily the truth. My only point is that we should avoid preaching that LIN was TARGETED BY THE ENTIRE NBA since it is only your OPINION based from the circumstantial evidence.

Circumstantial evidences are not conclusive but rather debatable. It can be true but it can also be false. So it is not HARD FACTS like KHuang is saying. Relying too much on this without HARD FACTS will be like gossiping.

If I witnessed a HARD FACT, what would it be?

If you show me a video that shows the conspiracy? I need to see HARD evidences not just circumstantial evidence that can be viewed in a lot of perspectives.

Lin seriously has to start the season well. His volvo and ESPN commercial, ranking, contract, man..I am starting to get worried. If you are wondering why there are haters on his Facebook is because when he has a bad match especially against the knicks they are going to taunt him.Same with his twitter account Trust me.It is crazy that those people are actually adults. I guess just respond with love :) I dont have Facebook but I am using my sibling's account. ha ha. There are alot of nasty things said about lin but we should not jump to conclusion about them being racist. We should just respond with love :) Real tough but I think that is the better way instead of using vulgarities.

Russell: We'll see. In New York, his teammates were able to get off their own shot. Now in a different situation in Houston, will he be able to help the guys that don't or can't necessarily get their own shot? If he does that, he can be very good. A recent example of that is what we saw Steve Nash do in Phoenix last season.

I agree with Russell. I actually want lin to be more of a pure pg. just score when necessary. his winning streak required him to score more which is great! However, I like to see him pass more as well but I am not too sure about this team

LOL, they were NOT able to get off their own shots in a winning manner. The offense was constipated with Lin not on the floor. Lin got the ball moving, kept the defense honest, and punished them when not.

Black Hole Melo was really the only one that didn't need setup, and well.... you're not going anywhere when the offense is Iso Melo elbow every time down the floor.

:) Bill Russel only said Jeremy's NY teammates were able to get off their own shots but they didn't necessarily have to make them :)

But he's right that Jeremy would need to be more of a playmaker in Houston to create for his young teammates. I think he would relish that opportunity rather than being a "safe" PG to mainly bring the ball up the court and just pass.

People seem to forget he started with a bunch of bench players. Novak was no one before jlin and so jeffries. Much credit is for d'antoni's system for sure but jeremy did absolutely well til melo and stoud came back. That's why I'm full of hope for the upcoming season

If Lin's Rockets teammates cannot score, then the double and triple teams will come HARD. No player in NBA history, not even Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson, could beat those triple teams all by himself.

Bill Russell is merely saying the same things that most of us here are saying to. There is nothing derogatory toward Lin in his statement.

Uh, I don't need a hall of famer to tell me that a PG will be needed to get the ball and setup shots for players that can't do it themselves.... Like really, that's what PGs do Mr. Russell. Thank you for such enlightening insight.

And that Lin is being counted on that... They are after all building the franchise around Lin. A "PG."

Just because a guy is listed at PG doesn't make him a distributor who creates opportunities for others.

There are plenty of shoot first pgs in the NBA that don't make the players around them better. Usually these players have other guys on their team doing the playmaking, like Tim Duncan who sets up everybody on the Spurs.

Tim Duncan is congruent to Parker..... Parker and d rose both average almost 8 assists a game their last full seasons. Parker was 8th in pg last year. Westbrook over his career has averaged around 7. Deron Williams last year had 8.7 Iverson in his heyday was good for 7. I remember reading your analysis of "elite"scoring point guards still needing/looking to dish dimes... Often requiring the scoring portion of their game to keep defenses honest, or just take over games themselves when necessary. And we've fully agreed Lin will score, dish, whatever the team needs. And I stand by my criticism of bill Russell. Both Parts 1 & 2.

Wow.... They need the pg to dish times and set up players like a "traditional" pg...... The one they call linsanity who has shown enormous ability to drop dims and is now the face of a franchise full of rookies basically..So insightful and cutting edge......

Parker and Rose are shoot first players who pass only when they fail to score on a given possession.

Neither player is a setup man despite being listed as point guards. The entire Chicago Bulls team sets up for Rose and Tim Duncan sets up Parker, not the other way around.

Bill Russell is merely stating a simple truth about the reality of Lin likely having to create shots for his teammates since none of them have proven yet that they can create for themselves at the NBA level. That's an objective opinion of the reality of the Rockets, not a slam on Lin's ability.

honestly, who cares about his ESPN ranking? I didn't care when it was 400-whatever last year, I don't care that it's 78 this year, and I still wouldn't care if it was #1 next year. All that matters is how he actually performs on the court, and how the team does.

Same goes for ESPN's team power rankings too. Who cares if your team is ranked #1 but loses in the first round of the playoffs? These rankings are just ways to increase readership and generate views.

The only sport that rankings matter is college football, because those are actually used to determine bowl slots.

Wow comparing Lin to Chris Paul.... Seriously? Chris Paul is the best PG in the nba. Last season he averaged a measly 2 turnovers per game. He is the better playmaker, defender, scorer, and much better at protecting the ball than Lin.

Way too soon for this comparison. Its a shame Paul got injured. 23/11/5.5/3 on 50% shooting at 23 years was insane. Also highest PER for Pgs ever(30).

You really believe Paul is a better rebounder and defend player than Lin . Paul was a few season in the League , Lin just the first year . But simply Lin is much much rebounder than Paul . The best weapon for Lin is he big shoot maker . when the game down to the wire , Paul can not compare to Lin at all. But for the rest part you mentioned , I agree with you .

Another pt is Lin is much better at making the opponent change their , it is because of his size as pt guard and the way he understand the game , I did not found this from chris Paul . Again , this is only his first season , he already able to do much better than Paul . Those kind of , would only getting better and better each year.

Another pt is Lin is much better at making the opponent change their shot, it is because of his size as pt guard and the way he understand the game , I did not found this from chris Paul . Again , this is only his first season , he already able to do much better than Paul . Those kind of , would only getting better and better each year.

Let's see how well Chris Paul would play if he had teammates refusing to catch passes or help him break the double and triple teams and left him straded defensively in help situations.

We'll take away Chris Paul's max contract and give him a sub million dollar nonguaranteed contract, stick him in the D league, and have him sleep on a variety of couches. We'll also let NBA refs refuse to call flagrant fouls and have opposing teams focus all on stopping ONE guy.

Yeah. It would be FUN to see if Chris Paul could do as well as Lin or better under Lin's conditions.

Let's see how well Chris Paul would play if he had teammates refusing to catch passes or help him break the double and triple teams and left him straded defensively in help situations.

We'll take away Chris Paul's max contract and give him a sub million dollar nonguaranteed contract, stick him in the D league, and have him sleep on a variety of couches. We'll also let NBA refs refuse to call flagrant fouls and have opposing teams focus all on stopping ONE guy.

Yeah. It would be FUN to see if Chris Paul could do as well as Lin or better under Lin's conditions.

i think both jlin and kmart will break the top 25 after this season. if the rockets can't resign kmart, then they should go all out for harden. i don't see jlamb breaking out this year, unless he can learn to score like kmart and minimize turnovers.

In no particular order!!LebronDurantBryantPaulLoveRoseHowardWestbrookParkerAldridgeGriffinWadeWilliamsRondoNashSmithJohnsonAnthony StoudemireChandlerDirkGarnettPierceAllenBoshIrvingWallLawsonHardenIbakaBynumGinobliDuncan

So that immediately puts him out of the TOP 25 or even the TOP 30

With that being said, #78 is perfect; It could have ben 60+ but again he only played 25 games so they also accounted for that factor.

Lawson was very impressive in the playoffs against the LAKERS. Wall, despite being in a toxic organization, averaged 16 ppg and 8 apg. While Lin averaged 15 and 6. Lin may be the more the efficient player but Wall's defense is clearly better. Kyrie Irving is the better shooter.

Yeah, John Wall and Irving are better than Lin although Lin beat them every single time head to head. Lol. People like to make assumption despite facts! Lawson scored 30+ pts against Lakers = impressive while Lin scored 30+ pts against Lakers = small sample size and against scrub PG. Yeah right.

The Lakers were playing the second game of a back-to-back. The first night was an overtime game against the Celtics. So, the Lakers were obviously tired. Moreover, the Lakers were playing at a playoff intensity against the Nuggets while Lin scored 38 against them in a non-playoff game.

Lin's performance against the lakers was impressive but I'm talking about more than 1 game.

If we are talking about skills as opposed to game impact, I'll rank Lin even higher.

Lin did all that he did in the most execrable conditions I've ever seen an NBA player endure. Unlike Chris Paul who traded himself to an LA Clippers team that was stacked with terrific players, Lin was leading the entire NBA in assist attempts to key spots despite having teammates refuse to catch the ball!

No point guard in today's NBA could have done better than Lin in the awful conditions he played in.

DeAndre Jordan - Way overratedBlake Griffin - Athletic , can score on the post occasionally , Lacks other scoring abilities, depends on PAULButler - Solid player but not an all-star caliber playerMo Williams - Solid but way too erraticChauncey Billups - Despite his leadership, he shot poorly last season and he was injured in the latter part of the season. Bledsoe - Okay but not terrificOthers - None of them were "terrific" players

So, I do not know why in the world would you even label them as terrific players.

Caron Butler was the starting SF for Dallas's championship team until he got injured.

Mo Williams is an expensive and highly regarded player who has started most of his career.

Chauncey Billups is an All Star who was playing great alongside Paul until he went down due to his knee injury.

Randy Foye, Nick Young, and Eric Bledsoe are all solid role players that draw interest from other teams.

I and the rest of the NBA do not share your low regard for the Clippers' talent. It isn't as if Chris Paul CARRIED that Clippers team the way Jeremy Lin did even after Anthony and Stoudemire came back from injury.

"DeAndre Jordan was a highly coveted free agent earning nearly Tyson Chandler money and is younger. "- Yeah, but after seeing him last season, I'm pretty sure the clippers' management is shaking their head. Chandler is a better defender and a vocal leader. Jordan only jumps high and blocks a couple of shots. He has terrible hands. He is a decent backup center. Yes, Backup Center.

"Blake Griffin is a posterizing #1 pick"- He has some talents but he depends on a good point guard like Stat. He has no jumpshot and he flops a lot.

"Caron Butler was the starting SF for Dallas's championship team until he got injured. "- They won because he was out (LOL). He is solid and can score 14-15 ppg. But he also relies on Paul.

"Chauncey Billups is an All Star who was playing great alongside Paul until he went down due to his knee injury."

- I disagree. He was shooting around 36-37% from the field. He was terrible. He was not his former self.

"Mo Williams is an expensive and highly regarded player who has started most of his career. "- You said it yourself, he's expensive. He's too erratic.

"Randy Foye, Nick Young, and Eric Bledsoe are all solid role players that draw interest from other teams. "- They are okay but they also rely on Paul to be efficient

"I and the rest of the NBA do not share your low regard for the Clippers' talent"- With the exception of Clipper fans, everybody seems to share my accurate views concerning the Clippers. They will be garbage without CHRIS PAUL.

The Clippers still managed the 4th spot without Billups in the last 46 games. I didn't call Billups garbage. But last season, Paul was obviously the driving force of the Clippers. Without him, they would not make the playoffs. The Clippers last season was definitely more talented than the Rockets this season.

Pathetic how you call Blake Griffin and his team of highly paid players "garbage" without Chris Paul.

It's not as if suddenly Blake Griffin laid down and stopped being a manchild after his incredible "Rookie" of the year season. That guy is one of the best power forwards in the entire NBA and you act as if he's some twice waived scrub from the D league that has to beg Chris Paul to save his game.

Nope, that's not how the NBA or Clippers work. Chris Paul is a fine point guard, and he deliberately traded himself to the Clippers because of their fine young talent. At least that's what he says in the papers, which you read but deliberately disregard in order to flame people here.

Those saying that Lin should not be ranked high because he only produced in 25 games or so. Please explain that how Anthony Davis who hasn't played a nba game is not yet ranked and will be ranked higher than Lin. See, your logic fails and smells double standard.

Well, I'm not sold on Anthony Davis. So, I probably rank him 200+ . Heck, I'm not even expecting him to be a top 10 rookie this season so Davis is definitely ranked way too high. Lin could have been in the top 70 or top 60 or even the top 55.

We do not know how they rank players. But I think they also account for consistency. So 25 games out of 66 may not be convincing the experts from ESPN. Maybe next year he can prove he's a top 40 or even top 30 player.

As a big Lin fan as I am, even I have to admit that Lin will probably never reach the Tim Duncan/Lebron James status given his physical limitions. But with enough hard work and hopefully avoiding injury, a Steve Nash/Dwyane Wade/Chris Paul level is certainly achievable for Lin in the right situation in my opinion. And I won't blame Lin even if the Rockets have a bad record. Because like those guys, Lin needs at least one more dominant teammate for his team to contend. Anyway, can't wait to see how the upcoming season plays out. ;-)

The athleticism of Lebron is obviously unreachable for LIN and almost every single player in the league. Tim Duncan was athletic but was never the quickest or the strongest player. So it is not about physical abilities (I don't know how you specifically quantify this) but about basketball skills.

Maybe Lin won't be as great as Duncan or James but your reasoning is flawed. You can claim that duncan was "physically limited". He never outjump or outpower anyone. He was great because of his fundamental skills, consistency and elite footwork and post scoring. You could also add defense and leadership.

We have different views on Lin's potential. I don't know his ceiling and so does everyone else. You already concluded that he's never going to reach that level. Yes, it's definitely difficult to achieve but I actually believe he can reach that level (not guaranteeing) because he showed enough leadership, clutch ability, mental toughness, finishing ability, good athleticism, and most importantly he's a quintessential learner.

However, that remains to be a potential not a reality. As of now, Lin is probably in the top 12 in the PG postion. He'll definitely improve in the next several years and become an elite pg assuming he continues to work hard and have a chip on his shoulder.

Let me ask this again, What physical limitations are you taling about? Larry Bird, Duncan, Nash, and others surely did not allow their physical abilities to limit their greatness.

Well for one, Lin's 6 foot 3. While this is good size for a PG, at this height, he will never have the defensive impact of a center like Duncan or an ultra athletic and tall forward like Lebron. Not his fault. Duncan was the best player of last decade while Lebron is the best player of this decade. Lin doesn't need to achieve their level to become an all time great.

Lin has the knack for hitting clutch shots. He has supreme Basketball IQ that enables him to drive to the basket despite the limited space. He has the same chance like Duncan and Lebron to be great. His size does not limit his potential. He is a point guard so his main job is to make decisions. He has terrific scoring ability and he seems to elevate the performance of his teammates.

Lin can dominate despite his size. I strongly disagree about the size of Lin being a hindrance in achieving high level of greatness. I'm not saying he will reach that level. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't be his size that limits him but other factors. Point guards can affect the game in a different way but they could still do it in the same dominating fashion.

KHuang got what I meant. Yes, basketball is a big man's game. Not to slight anyone short, but when all other things being equal, the taller ones always have advantage in bball. You can improve on anything else (skills, athleticism, speed) but you can't teach size. Lin can be one of the best guards around though and that's good enough for me.

Charles Barkley was 6'4" to 6'5" but it didn't stop him from dominating. First of all, he is a point guard so he's not going to have Lebron's size. He reach that level if he continues to hit deadly clutch shots and create havoc due to his driving ability. He can also master the pick and roll like NASH and STOCKTON did.

What matters is relative to the position you are playing. He's pretty big for a pg so he'll dominate smaller ones.

Looking at that list of PGs, there is not a single player other than Derrick Rose that I consider better than Lin. And Derrick Rose is not on my list because he doesn't have point guard duties despite being listed as one.

If you like those guys so much more than Lin, neph, then FOLLOW them. There are no less than 12 players you consider better than Lin, which means there are no less than 12 fansites that would agree with you.

wow I was going to get the benefit of the doubt to neph's Top 12 PG list but I'm having a hard time justifying Wall, Lawson before Lin. They just didn't have the same impact as Lin in the games in making their teammates better or pulling their team for a win in the 4th quarter.

I would be comfortable to put Jeremy in the Top 8 PG behind Steve Nash in 2012 due to a limited season cut short by injuries and out of respect for other PGs who have done it longer. I'd have to wait for Wallsanity, Lawsonity, Lowrysanity first to agree for a Top 12.

Lin had no trouble playing Ty Lawson in AAU ball, and the NBA won't be any different. Lin is at least 5 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier than Lawson, plus Lin is QUICKER.

Kyrie Irving vs Lin was the only time I've seen an undrafted player outplay a #1 overall pick. Somehow Lin managed to rack up 13 assists even though the team was in the throes of anti Lin rebellion. And for the haters that like to argue that Irving played Lin "evenly" that game, SINCE WHEN were #1 overall picks supposed to be matched by undrafted twice waived D League rejects?

The only true point guard I regard as being Lin's near equal is John Wall whose game I like very much. Even so, Wall has not dominated in as many statistical categories as Lin has. On paper, you'd think Lin and not Wall was the 2010 overall 1st pick. Wall needs to learn the NBA game, which Lin already has.

No Neph, that discussion was where u flip flopped in the same thread was when I stopped reading your long winded terrible analysis. I remember it very clearly. The day I knew I could start counting on you for laughs.