8 buttons :
-Logitech G400 (Avago 3095)Important : The first generation of G400 are shipped with an Avago 3080E sensor (or not : see here) which has prediction ; to avoid it buy a G400 with a PID above LZ13333 (located under the mouse), which packaging is different (see Chris_P -from the Logitech Team- statement here) by having a Logitech sticker looking like that (supposedly ; good luck).

If you don't use mouse accel or high sens ( < 15cm/360) you'll hit those speeds often enough to get annoyed of. At least I did when I played quake live with mid sens (25cm/360) and no accel.
Most quake players use either high sens or accel anyway, so for quake its a perfect cheap mouse (if you don't mind unusable wheel and annoying cable). But its not a "OK gaming mouse" like OP stated. Actually it sucks ass for anything but playing quake :P

I play at 25/360 noaccel, and I do notice neg accel to a small extent on fast turns, but have gotten used to it. 25/360 feels just enough for me to make quick 180s without a hassle. Lowering sens from this point however is really bad with this mouse for me.

The cable is indeed bad, but if you make a big loop with it and set it on your desk, it is not noticeable. Then again, you do need lots of space for this, which I have. I can't imagine the ghetto ducttape contraptions I'd have to make if I didn't.

The mousewheel is unusable in games, since it randomly scrolls up and down when picking up the mouse and placing it back on the pad. If you place your mouse on the pad even harder, mouse1 and 2 will go off :)

I also heard it has a small clicking lag. Can't confirm it though, haven't seen credible tests. Only hearsay.

However, it's small, really really light, great clawing ambidextrous shape, has an amazingly small lifftoff distance, tracks great on any pad or surface concievable for gaming, has no prediction, it's sturdy and really cheap.

you can fix scroll problem with script, that makes action after 2 clicks instead of one. I used it flowlessly but then I set scroll for something not that important because you actually can't operate with scroll so fast as with keyboard keys.

Actually the mouse is fine for many other games as well. CombatCarl used the WMO for all of his career and raped just about everyone with his aim. I believe a number of top CS players use it as well. When you think about it, not many if any other fps is going to the extremely quick swipes that you see in Quake therefore hitting that ceiling is going to be less common. If would be even bigger issue in Quake if your sens is low, but I don't think any of the top tier players sense are that low, save for maybe Strenx or DKT.

there's no mouse out there working perfectly under all (theoretically possible) circumstances. the real question here is if you know what kind of circumstances _you_ yourself create while playing and if your hardware works under those.

in other words, everyone throwing "perfect control up to x m/s", "acceleration", "skipping" and "jittering" around should realize that it comes to specific hardware combos and playing styles and that there is no universally correct answer to your question.

yes, there's a high chance that unless you have an out of the ordinary setup and style that there are several mice out there that'll fit. problem is that most people don't bother even thinking about what they need...

The SteelSeries Kinzu was built with hardware level acceleration which is preferred by some of the top gamers in the world. Although mouse acceleration has been coined as a villain in some gaming circles, it is slowly but surely becoming a valued feature for certain top gamers whom can utilize its benefits to the fullest. The major gripe with mouse acceleration is inconsistency. This inconsistency is due to software-based acceleration tools such as Windows mouse acceleration which is built for basic tasks such as web browsing, not precision gaming.

Weve built the Kinzu to be a precision gaming tool for the next generation of gamers demanding consistency, as well as the latest technology. It is our one and only mouse that utilizes hardware-based acceleration that is built into the mouse sensor itself. This provides unparalleled consistency. The technical basis behind this is that the mouse normally has to communicate with your operating system's shell in order for the sensor movement to become a cursor movement on your screen. Acceleration will be added within your operating system only and this change may not be communicated between your mouse and computer. By implementing hardware level acceleration as we have on the Kinzu, you control the acceleration with one tool instead of leaving it up to your operating system to figure it out.

We do realize that some gamers swear against mouse acceleration and refuse to subscribe to the preferences of some of the next generations top gamers. If thats the case, the Kinzu is not for you! Finally, it is important to note that the SteelSeries Kinzu is our one and only mouse that utilizes this exclusive acceleration engine that is implemented on a hardware level.

"Feature: Prediction and correction of movement. Lets say youre trying to make a horizontal movement. Of course your hand isnt 100% steady, so your line will have slight diversions and wouldnt be completely straight. Back in the day, the manufacturers of mouse sensors decided to include a feature in the optical sensors of their mice, that would help people draw straight lines. It would remove the small diversions, if the diversion was less than a certain angle and instead just draw a perfectly straight line. The funny thing is: This feature has never been marketed, though it has been in countless mice over the past years. Can you guess why?Problem: Prediction cost you precision. Period. If your mouse is trying to predict your movements, instead of just performing the movements you are actually doing, your precision is obviously degraded. If you want to make a movement that is almost, but not quite, a straight line (meaning you want to move a bit up and like half a screen to the right for example) then your movement will be altered. This function of sensors kicks in pretty fast and the worst part: in most sensors you cant even disable it."

"Weve built the Kinzu to be a precision gaming tool for the next generation of gamers demanding consistency, as well as the latest technology. It is our one and only mouse that utilizes hardware-based acceleration that is built into the mouse sensor itself. This provides unparalleled consistency"

This seriously sounds like something Jared Loughner would write.

How about saying something like "sorry we messed up when choosing this sensor. However here is information regarding the exact acceleration curve that this mouse has so that you can attempt to correct it in-game if you wish."

One thing I learned from SS support is, they never admit any mistake. even if it's so plain obvious it hurts. I explained in detail the precautions I had taken to check if the kinzu acceleration was hardware or software induced, they fed me the protocol bullshit and lies.

I stay away from this company at all costs (unless it's a mouse pad, can't fuck up those can they)

They do but that has nothing to do with the sensor.
The sensor doesn't have angle snapping.
FreeMove gives you the option to turn it on and adjust the level of angle snapping but it's processed on the MCU of the mouse, not on the sensor.
The same goes for the Ikari Laser.

I've used various classic Deathadders on different surfaces over the years and never had such a problem. It did have high lift-off distance and prediction in the beginning, but both problems were corrected later.

As previously mentioned, the firmware in the abyssus has been updated, so the jitter has been removed. However, these are only on the newer released models, so there is a possibility that you could be buying an older one. I will be waiting about 6 months and then buying a new one. (As my current one jitters on everything really).

because I dunno about the g9 (although I remember reading quite some harsh critics about it ; I don't remember their content though) ; same for the other mouses in that list
I'll edit the main post for clarity

Surely you can make some judgement on how bad it could be for you if you know consequences from other people's experiences which are completely reproducible. I mean isn't that the point of what he's doing?

But prediction and built in accel have no substantial effect on how well you actually play. Aim is only a small factor of well you play, and even for pure aim the difference the mouse makes is very small, probably not more than 1% accuracy on average (between the best mouse you can find and a random Logitech optical)

(edit) Lots of gamers suffer from the same problem as musicians/audiophiles. They will claim their more expensive/traditional product sounds excellent while the other stuff is total crap, but will often fail to consistently tell the difference between which is which in a blind test. They just repeat what a lot of people say without really being able to tell the difference themselves.

"there's no mouse out there working perfectly under all (theoretically possible) circumstances. the real question here is if you know what kind of circumstances _you_ yourself create while playing and if your hardware works under those."

it really depends on the individual player how much the shape of a mouse or the sensor holds him back because i.e. it annoys him, feels uncomfortable etc.

the difference can be strikingly bigger than 1% imo. and is bigger on average than just that.

i never said anything about accuracy % anywhere. i was just making clear that kg is misquoting him in a rather obvious way :p

he' talking about (major) technical issues, not shape or anything like that and it that regard i agree: between an entry level logitech sensor and whatever is the latest in 'gaming' mice there isn't really that much of a difference. otherwise people wouldn't still win (/play) tournaments with mx300/wmo/3.0 in 2011.

Exactly. My point was about the technical specs and there being little difference in that regard.

You aren't going to know how the mouse feels or what shape it has and whether those things suit you by reading about the mouse on the internet. People don't buy guitars based on what wood they're made out of and what pickups they have, they try it out and see how the specific guitar plays and whether or not they like it.

Jitter, prediction, malfunction speed, tracking issues on certain surfaces all make a noticeable difference. Providing technical specs is a way to know not only whether your grip is compatible with the rest of mouse. It shows how technical issues would only compound other problems as well. To me you're trying to isolate one thing and say that it isn't very useful, when in fact it goes hand-in-hand with everything else. It's not like everyone can just find any sensor with any shape mouse they want.

Well said. I can't play with prediction on. It affects my aim alot! The sensor of the wmos is just too old and lacks the tracking like the g9x has. For me that mouse is by far the best mouse i ve ever had.

I'm going to have to blatantly disagree on ~1%. I have used many many mice and have easily had 5-8% differences in accuracy. And that's not even including mice which may have slight jitter or angle snapping. You ever done a Fatal1ty or EG|Ecstacy UT3 shootout at a lan party? The secret sauce is all in the mouse YOU get to use, and I know this because I've participated in them as well as friends. Other %'s can be deducted depending on gripstyle compatibility and comfort or what surface you're playing on. I can guarantee you even if I extend your 1% to lets say 2-3%, that amount can make or break a clutch shot. I don't think if k1llsen went off and used some shit logitech or off brand, he would only drop 1-2%. This is all besides the fact that usually the better you're able to shoot, the more confident you are, the less nervous you are, the better you shoot.

5-8%? Are you kidding me? There is no way there is any kind of difference that big. You need time to get accustomed to the mouse you're using (you can't switch mice and hit the same accuracy instantly), but there's no way sensor quality affects aim like that, unless the mouse is plainly malfunctioning (skipping etc).

Even drinking a bottle of wine doesn't affect my accuracy by 5%. If you're claiming the sensor matters more than being drunk, I think you're slightly deluted about the effect technology has.

To say there is "no way" the sensor can affect aim like that (even indirectly, on top of the other mouse traits which you blatantly ignored in my post, only makes you look deluded. I'd be happy to show many screenshots from different mice I have used and the differences in % accuracy. I have known many other people as well who have shared the same experiences so I guess they're all deluded also. Although in all honesty what you're saying is nothing more than a theory you can't really prove, along with so many other variables.

5-8% accuracy is the difference between a pro player's aim and a good player's aim, or a good player's aim and a casual player's aim. (38% lg vs 30%lg vs 22%lg ?!?!). Noone is going to rise or fall a skill gap because they're using a different mouse, but you can keep pretending that the mouse is the number one reason someone aims well, I'm tired of arguing with people who mindlessly claim that the choice of mouse sensor is uber important and I, along with several other top players in various games, will keep using a mouse that has *gasp* prediction.

Your problem seems to be that -you- can't notice differences (increasings in aim, more probably) between various mice, and that appened -after- you have spent a lot of money in expensive mouses;
it's a common problem between gamers, and explain the 80% of the people saying: "it's all about preferences, mouse means nothing, if u are a noob you are a noob, i can beat everyone with a 5$ mouse!!! " ,peoples that have probably bought stuffs like <<<<<<<<<The Razer Mamba>>>>>>>>>>> and have repented after a week.
(the resting 15% simply doesn't want that other players be awared of things that colud help them to increase their overall skill, like with all the others console settings)
and the final 5% are peoples that really haven't understood how much a good mouse can make the difference, but they are in good faith.

You do realize that I am a top tier Quake player with some of the best raw aim in the world, right? That if there is anyone who is going to notice a difference in performance, it's going to be someone like me?

When my Diamondback 3G broke down a few years ago, I used an old 5 Logitech optical mouse for a month or two. My accuracy did not change more than maybe one-two percent. And that's going from a top tier gaming mouse to one of the absolute worst mice you can buy these days.

I have absolutely no idea of who are you, and i couldn't care less.
It is a fact that with a 5$ crap mouse it is simply not possible to be competitive at very high levels, or said in an other way, that it doesn't allow you to express all of your potential, in a way surely higher than 5% of the aim, talking about the 5$ crap mouses.
It is not needed to be a top tier player to notice the built-in weird positive acceleration, the jittering and all the splitting that makes the aim impredictable when used with complicated configurations, such as high sensitivities/ accelerations.

This, talking only about the shitty sensors;
plus, there are annoying cables, plastic or totally absent foots, and ridicously high LODS (with the tracking becoming unstable in the last tracking moments.)
Better don't talk about the random shapes (that sometimes, still, could even be better than some expensive ones.)
And so on and so forth.

Someone at "very high levels" tells you a mouse makes little difference, and your counter-argument is that he's wrong. Seriously? "

...No, according to this, YOU are an idiot.
I've explained clearly some reasons whereby, to play at high levels, you must use a good mouse, where the 5 $ mouses that you have cited are not enough, and the only counter-argumentation that you have is: shitty mouses are more than enough because i am saying that i am a pro (?) and so its like that.
Thank you, you have showed well enough your impartiality and coherence.

Xai is pretty flawless once you downgrade the firmware to 1.2.x.x, it's back to the avago factory standards then. Goes up to 5040 dpi and accell seems pretty much gone as long as your selected dpi can be divided by 90.

I just downgraded my Xai's firmware to 1.2.179 and set my CPI to 720 to test your theory. Positive acceleration was unchanged.

You can keep looking for magical fixes but you will soon realize that the sensor is simply defective and if you hate acceleration that can't be disabled then the only solution is to buy a mouse that doesn't use the ADNS 9500.

Thanks, interesting (although it doesn't technicaly explains it ; maybe it has to do with the "Self-adjusting frame rate", which changes would give different resulting sensitivities if the DPI used isn't a 90 multiple, because that's the way Avago optimized the algorythm).
I wonder why steelseries, logitech or roccat would play the sorcerer's apprentice and modify Avago's engineers optimization ; I guess it's just a case of "we have to be different from our competitors", even on fields they shouldn't touch because the work has already been done and supposedly by more competent people.

If you set the Xai to a a CPI level that isn't a multiple of 90 the sensor itself is still running on a supposed CPI level (multiple of 90), it just gets interpolated by the MCU.
For example if you set it to 850 CPI the sensor is most likely set to 900 CPI and the MCU does the math.

The mouse manufacturers don't mess around with the sensor, the srom is provided by Avago but ofc they have many settings to play with and optimize.

In the case of SS and Logitech they just wanted a special srom.
Logitech wanted higher FPS and (most likely) CPI, SS wanted one with the special features used in the Xai, allthough ExactAim is afaik they only one which isn't MCU based.

But it might just be the interpolation causing trouble like the acceleration problems.

Well obviously steelseries has the 5040 version. If you email steelseries, you can get a firmware reset tool that resets the Xai back to a really old firmware, probably even from before it got sold since the maximum dpi magically changed from 5001 to 5040.

It shouldn't, I talked with the responsible R&D Manager about that a long time ago, he didn't see reason how it could affect this and it never made a difference for my Xai.

I know that you can get a firmware reset tool from SteelSeries but I don't have a need for that because my Xai works fine, it always did, even on cloth, besides the small pos. accel. which doesn't bother me.

Logitech has a different srom (firmware) for the ADNS-9500 allthough it's not clear if the higher CPI are interpolated.
It's possible that Roccat also has a different srom but I doubt that.

The 100 CPI steps on the Logitech Mice are as real as the 90 CPI steps on other A9500 mice.
Avago actually switched between 5000 (100 steps), 5040 (90 steps) and 4950 CPI (90 steps) during the the design process.

The 5001 CPI setting on the Xai is actually simply interpolated 5040 CPI (or maybe 4950 CPI) and was meant as a joke aimed at that ultra-high CPI BS:

And one thing you should fix if you actually want to make this thread respectable is to start by making the title not look retarded broken English. You don't say "mouses", you say "mice" "without major sensor flaws" not "without sensors major flaw". That just looks ridiculous.

The Compact Oxford English Dictionary (third edition) and the fourth edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language endorse both computer mice and computer mouses as correct plural forms for computer mouse

Saying "mouses" is 'nonstandard' form, as in not conforming to the language as accepted by the majority of its speakers. though technically you can use it but you sound like a foreigner when you do, (which you are). Being as I live in USA and have spoken English for 25 years, no one ever says mouses and any other native speaker knows this. You really should use a modern collegiate, not heritage dictionary. :P

Thanks for the inputs, I've edited a bit the post.
I'll try to add more informations as I gather them (and process them).
Sources so far are Skylit's overclock.net thread, and subjective users reviews (I'll precise what is facts and what isn't when I find a better way to present them, like a spreadsheet with filtering-out and sorting options. this thread serves mostly to gather informations, get opinions and corrections).
MX518 has unremovable angle snapping thus won't be listed in this thread ; but if I do at some point a general mouse listing, I'll add this informations about data saturation on the rev2.
About the heading I hesitated between the two forms ; I guess I can't be alltime lucky with my english skills. Thanks for the correction.

The sensor seems flawless until it hits its hardware limitations (which can't be avoided), it's a different matter than e.g. "this sensor has a z-axis bug".
It does not mean it makes it a perfect mouse.

Hi, thanks for your work on your amazing spreadsheet.
Basically what I'd like to do is to create the same kind of spreadsheet, but adding :
-sorting-out and filtering options (e.g. "filter out mouses with unremovable angle-snapping, display only those which have more than 400DPI, and sort it by sensor's name")
Being new to using google spreadsheet, I just discovered most of it can already be done when using another view (e.g. from your spreadsheet if I click "Edit this page>View>List view" it leads here) and I guess it's possible then to add any sort of filter.
-adding a bunch of new columns : numbers of buttons (and how many can be binded), weight, if the mouse has an ambidextrous form, if the grip is claw, palm or in between, etc
And a Note column in which could be written e.g. "reported having non-linear positive acceleration with firmware 42" ; notes which could be subjective (I guess that's something you wouldn't want to see on your spreadsheet, so that's why I'm doing all this ; would you allow me to use the datas from your spreadsheet to create an extended one with less reliable yet relevant informations ?).

Nice, thanks ; although I'm not sure what you're saying : would you prefer that I create a new spreadsheet (which you or anybody else could edit, just like you do with your one -wikipedia style), or that I edit your one and add columns and filter options ?

I have razer mamba and it's prolly one of the shittiest mouses I've ever seen. I haven't actually even tried to play with it a lot so I can't comment much on that side of it. The quality how it's made is just plain horrible. This mamba I have is actually my 2nd one, because the first one had a faulty connector inside the mouse and didn't connect when the cable was plugged. Cable was ok because it worked fine in wireless mode (cable goes to the docking station).

after changing the mouse to another one from razer support, I got the wired mode to work, but it was like the 2nd or 3rd time when I changed the mouse from wired to wireless when the plug just fell apart. They hadn't apparently used whole lot of glue there judging by how easy it broke down. I glued it myself with a special plastic glue I bought and left the mouse in wired mode for a long time because I was afraid it will break down even worse if I touch it again. Wise decision as I learned few months later when I had a need to get it to wireless mode again: the cable connector lost a big piece of plastic (from a place where I hadn't glued it) when I plugged the cable to the docking station.

The plastic on it feels like it's made of wet toilet paper, it breaks so easily.

Also the mouse wheel started making annoying creaking noise when rolling it, after a few weeks of usage.

Also the mouse also seems like it needs some special mousepad to work, for example on my old Steelseries SP mousepad I can't get the cursor to move no matter what I do. It works pretty ok with puretrack talent/steel qck on windows use, dunno about gaming as I said earlier. Shit mouse, don't get it.

Razer mice have shit quality in general. My DiamondBack's cord broke in 12 months (fixed it myself), then the mousewheel button broke 3 months after that and after another 3 months the sensor just died. (Lost the receipt so couldn't have it replaced)

The mice you posted are clearly the best for fps atm. WMO, IMO, IME, Abyssus, and the Deathadder. I recently switched to the Abyssus from the WMO and I have to say its fucking awesome. The link you posted said the Abyssus has prediction depending on the firmware. I have a new Abyssus and I don't feel any prediction or acceleration whatsoever. The sensor is perfectly placed and the shape is good for a claw grip. If you use a cloth pad and a claw grip, the Abyssus should be ideal.

I use an Allsop Raindrop, which that thread agrees works well with an Abyssus. No jitters at all. Maybe the new models work better or maybe the Allsop or Goliath is what you need to use an Abyssus. Regardless, this mouse owns. Cypher and Cooller agree ;).

I bought my Abyssus a couple weeks ago at a local computer store. I'm not sure if the mouse had been sitting in the store for a long time or if it was recently shipped. However, I can tell you that my Abyssus does not jitter on my Allsop Raindrop XL. I updated the firmware before I played any Quake, so you might be right that the problems have been fixed with updates.

What the fuck are you writing
how could you update firmware on a non-updateable mouse ...
That's exactly the whole problem that you can't fix abyssus yourself, either they fix it on factory or hf with jitter, and i highly doubt that 1st option has been done, eventhough some people say it has been, seeing such lying replies like urs

Maybe it was the drivers I installed instead of firmware. You can find their updates on their site. Perhaps you bought an old version of the Abyssus. Lying? lol there's no reason. My Abyssus works well. Regardless, keep your paranoid nerd rage to yourself.

yh, but i'm guessing mine is old because of this http://img337.imageshack.us/i/jitter.png/
EDIT: asked for a refund from the ebay seller and purchased a new abyssus from razerzone eu, it should be a new one.. i'll be pissed if it aint :S

Coined by someone else in another topic. He stated something interesting: Aren't mice that we consider to have no angle snapping/prediction actually just have a bad implementation of them? It might be that mice without angle snapping might be unworkable.

I think the question is valid because as manufacturers have such a hard time delivering quality stuff.

quite similar to something I said a few days ago ( even though I'm sure the idea's been floating around for a moment ). I have no idea how we could really determine this, except maybe some wacky nerd shit like a stock sensor without any software+fpga and check if no prediction at all is actually playable.

Well it might be hard to test if mice without angle snapping would be unworkable. But it might be possible to test wether or not the WMO/3.0 have prediction or just bad sensors.

Due to all this prediction talk we assumed that us humans can't draw straight lines. So it might be possible to create a sujoy style setup using a machine to move the mouse. Maybe someone can build a lego robot or anything? ;D

EDIT:
I have the idea! Instead of a turntable like sujoy did, use a treadmill or a sander ;D

Is there a way to distinguish (on the box or on the mouse) Abyssus loaded with the bugged firmwares from the ones loaded with the firmwares fixing the jitering issue ?
Else buying one is gonna be gambling.

same case with the Salmosa which is very similar to Abyssus in terms of shape and side-buttons (they don't have any). Also, the Salmosa has the 3G DA sensor put in it, so that it does not jitter, but has prediction, just as the old DA 3G without NDC firmware did. The newer Abyssus has the DA 3.5G sensor put in it which is known to jitter on cloth mousepads, but has only a very slight amount of angle-snapping / drift-control (people call it no prediction, although technically every mouse has prediction - just different amounts so that it is less or more visible)

when were these new firmware ones released about? i'm thinking of buying a new mouse and the abyssus looks fitting, but if there's a high chance of getting a crap one i'll rather wait a couple months or so

There is a lot of speculation about the apparent different generations of the Abyssus. I can't say for sure whether there are actual differences between "old" and "new" Abyssi, but I can tell you that mine works with out jitters/prediction/+-acceleration on an Allsop cloth pad. I would assume it would work just as well on a razer cloth pad. From what has been said about the Abyssus, I'm guessing I lucked out and got a new version.

Maybe ordering directly from razer would be better than getting the cheapest deal from some arbitrary site. At least you would know you are probably getting a new generation. If it doesn't work out, try the WMO. good luck

I've got it (g9x) and I can't really say I noticed any accel. I am a low sens user with accel in ql. At least it is not annoying like prediction.

I can't understand how people can say that prediction is overhyped. I can't get used to it. Last mouse I tried was the ec2 from zowie. Perfect shape. Couldn't be better, but after 1,5 weeks of play i noticed that i missed alot of easy shots. And my movement felt really weird. Out of control. So I sold it and bought the g9x.

The shape of the g9x is pretty shit compared to the wmo/ec2/xai but the adns-9500 pure gold :) just love the way it tracks and moves. With the artisan g3 hard mousepad it is one of the best combination! :P

I can vouch that g9x doesn't have any accel, or if it has it's impossible to notice by any normal testing. Moving the mouse as fast as I can to right and as slowly as possible back and it always returns to the same exact position.

yea, some asian site did their own version of a mousescore with proper setup etc. and their graphs showed it had slight acceleration starting around 1 m/s and getting more pronounced around 1.5 m/s. the increase was around 5% at lower speeds and up to 10% at max iirc.

Well here's what I think, I think that most abyssus's work fine on the right mousepads, however, i don't know if there is actual difference in Fragged Editions and the Standard editions..
EDIT: I think I will just return both my shit ones and buy one from amazon.co.uk.. I'll return to my working 3.0 on my qck until i get a flawless abyssus I think..

The same on my qck, thats all i have to test..but on another thread about Abyssus's some guy said his worked perfectly on his Fragged Speed Edition so... I also read elsewhere the Fragged Editions are just different looks, but same mats

Why you guys keep complaining about how bad is prediction and negative/possite acceleration. Get a ball mouse!

Plus. Cypher has m_filter 1 , so Abyssus does not jitter so much. As well, Abyssus jitters A LOT on VERY LOW sensitivities (60cm/360 or lower) and on 125hz mode. Jitters less on 1000hz. In all other cases, it's a great gaming mouse

imagine this situation: your crosshair is almost next to your enemy in a straight line but unfortunaly its just almost a straight line. You try to hit but the prediction makes a straight line and so you miss althought your hand moved perfectly...

didn't you know??! (wtf wtf?!) the salmosa has this perfectly not-jittering sensor and ugly prediction and thus not allowing me to aim at all FUUUUUUUCCCCK (like wtf how am I going supposed to hit ANYTHING when not being able to draw ideally round circles???!)

I am so pissed.. I want to fucking throw the mouse out of the window, fucking spit on it, and fucking drive over it with my fucking car!! #!$@! FUCK FUCK FUCK

razer DA firmware fix was supposed to remove prediction (aka angle-snapping, drift control)...
actually the fix just decreased it... and I bet razer abyssus still have prediction.
I can still easily make straight lines with DA latest non-prediction firmware.

Do u own a abyssus to claim your "bet"? I have both abyssus and wmo and both track flawlessly on a speed pad. Abyssus has a higher lod and wmo neg accel. So both ain't perfect but abyssus's cord is better, form and it doesn't feel crappy like the wmo :x

make some straight lines in paint with both mice
so abyssus has no prediction? lod is bad and working only on some mousepads is bad. 3 neg. points
wmo neg. accel? use usb oc-tool 500hz and its fixed. A 10 mouse and it works flawless on everything!

Pretty sure you wouldn't be able to draw a somewhat straight line at all with a wmo/3.0 if it didn't have prediction. But as it's easy to get out of it ( even with human error ) it's not noticeable as much as what we usually whine about ( aka the 518 snaphammer )

This is speculation and not a technical explanation / proof that I was looking for.

I already cannot draw a straight line in paint. Not if I move slowly, and not even if I use only my arm.

At 400 cpi, a count occurs every 63.5 micrometers.

With the amount of friction produced by the mouse weight/feet/pad (qck/wmo) and drawing slowly I can draw a straight line 20 to 30 pixels length but this is purely because the joints in my arm allow for this very steady and smooth rotation.

After that I have to 'correct' for the rotation angle and I either have to move the position of my torso to compensate (not going to do that because I don't feel like doing some odd yoga) or my muscles now have to push my hand a bit to maintain the straightness of the path and it is just not subtle enough to do this under the 63.5 micrometers limit. I think the best I can do after that is maybe ~110.

All this involves drawing the line very slow of course and at any kind of reasonable speed my precision becomes exponentially worse. I'd say that during normal mouse movement in FPS games I cannot depend on a precision under 2 mm and that may be optimistic.

The point is that I cannot find the angle snapping by experiment. I just don't see it, so I'm inclined to believe that it isn't there.

I used it also like this. Then I found out it's shit, because you can't be precise at aiming while moving your finger to scroll wheel. So scroll-wheel can by used for something unnecessary like +button2. Eventually you will find out it some day, it was not so obvious at first try. For sure no PRO use scroll-wheel for weapon switching

Wow that's a late reply hehe. Last time I played Quake I bound everything on the keyboard I think.
You are absolutely right though it can disturb your aiming unless you press mouse2 with your ring finger (middle finger always on wheel). Don't see many people hold their mice like this but for some reason I do.

dunno, that's not sensor related ; you just mentioned it anyway
buttons suck too (if I "slam" a bit the mouse while doing a fast movement, my lmb may be hit)
I wonder if one couldn't fix this opening the mouse and making the wheel/buttons less sensitive (I guess some already tried, and it's all over the internet ; but for me : cba, I don't use this mouse)

I can say razer mamba/imperator(3.5G) and razer lachesis(3G) performs perfectly well on razer destructor/megasoma. I guess I am just lucky, tho I suspect from what I experienced that those mouse are pretty mouse pad sensitive. Otherwise on those two mp - no problems whatsoever with newest firmware on those 3.

Dunno, all 3 of my mouses work like a charm on my megasoma, right now I play with razer imperator on it. I play from 10cm/360 to 30cm/360 - no skipping at all. I tried sidewinder x8 on it tho, and omfg - skip is too soft to describe what happened.

I am a representative of CM Storm, and wanted to update everyone on whats going on. We are working very hard to correct all jitter and surface issues. We are extremely close to a firmware fix which is in testing stages now. For any spawn owners please continue to check the Cm Storm website in the next few days as an update should be live. Thanks for all of your support!

Actually we arent their customers. "Hardcore" is only about 5% of their market. I could never figure that out though. Since a lot of people ask those who are 'hardcore' they should be, in terms of influence a lot higher. Btw, if you can get this mouse to work well, can you please make a palmversion ie in the shape of da/ie3.0? Thanks!

what dpi polling rate and mousepad did you use when you tested spawn ? I experience huge amounts of neg accel in-game if i move my mouse fast enough on purpose, raw input is enabled and i use the native resolution ofc ( 1800dpi ) i would blame it on my mousepad ( artisan hien - black ) but the problem goes away if lower the polling rate from 500hz to 250, really weird :S

From my experience with G5 i dont notice any correction ingame or in win, while drawing straight lines in paint it comes rather straight but not perfectly like around 3-5 dipsin the line couple of inches long. Also logitech staff officialy claim on their forums that g5/g3 has no correction.

I would say zowie ec series mice are pretty much perfect tracking wise, they can easily go 500hz without any drivers installed and they're practically unskippable for low sens players, only flaws i've encountered were minor prediction, a bit of jitter on the zowie G-TF pad, and zero compatibility with black icemat.

My CM sentinel advance (phillips twin eye laser) doesn't exhibit any of those lift-off or vibration issues. I'm using it at 400DPI, maybe that has something to do with it? It does start acting strange above 1600DPI, and is all but useless at 5600. I used to play at 1600 and I hated this mouse so much I went back to my old diamondback. I recently switched back to the CM and dropped it to 400DPI and I love it.

I play with really low sensitivity (79cm/360, 58cm/360 after accel) and I literally cannot get it to skip no matter how fast I move. They claim 6m/s, and I believe them. It does move about 3-6 pixels when I lift it, but that's probably more to do with me not lifting it perfectly straight, not really a big deal. Runs at a stable 1000hz and feels a million times smoother than my old diamondback or the WMO I borrowed from someone for a few weeks. Using it on a CM cloth pad.

It is, however:

a) heavy as hell
b) expensive
c) ugly (this thing has headlights ffs. It can be turned off though)

After testing the zowie mico out theres no prediction, acceleration and the lift off distance is very low about 1-2mm on cloth. The only drawback is the perfect controlspeed but I have no way of accurate testing it. But it seems to be somewhat higher than the 1,27m/s because I can't max out on it unlike on the wmo

Can anyone tell me if some of the cheap mice (such as notebook mice) have decent tracking? The abyssus made me realise I need a lightweight mouse, and these things look like they would be perfect but I don't want to buy a total POS.

The Mionix NAOS 5000 performs just the same as any other ADNS 9500 mouse. It tracks well on hard pads (like the QPad HeatoN) but suffers from horrible skipping on softmats (even on the Talent). At least on low sens (~60cm/360°). It has slight positive accel, but that never concerned me that much.

Ergonomically I really like the NAOS, also the buttons feel and click well, better than my G500 at least.

In the end no mouse could convince me to stop using my Deathadder, still got the old one with 1800 DPI.

Bought an Abyssus lol edition today and it's quite awesome (no prediction, no jittering), the only flaw it has to my eyes is that it's slightly to big for me...I should probably have bought salmosa asia edition...

Could anybody recommend me a mouse - I have pretty large hands as I am a big guy. I currently use the MS 3.0 but it has pretty noticeable negative acceleration as I am a low sensitivity user. I have had Deathadders in the past but they have always broke on me after around 6 months use and its just irritating to keep getting it RMA'd. In the past I have also had Abyssus (just way too narrow for my hands) and the Xai (usable size but everybody knows its sensor problems - worked well with plastic pad but its just not comfortable for me with my Heaton XL). Have also had Mx518 but couldn't get used to clawing it.

Just checked that OCN guide and it looks really good. Good perfect control speed for my low sens. Has prediction but I don't really care about that. Only thing stopping me from buying right now I can't find whether or not it has any neg/pos accel issues, perhaps you know?

cons:
- has 2 buttons on each side which leads to some grip issues
* however there is a feature on the mouse it self to make it so only the buttons on 1 side will work, so you can only make the left or right side buttons work, not both at the same time.
- avago states that for the adns3090 sensor, you should select between 1800 or 3500 dpi, so zowie altered this somehow, could possibly lead to some glitches/problems

i really think this could be a great mouse as long as the altered dpi values dont result in any crazy problems

I recently retired my Copperhead after 4 or 5 years of faithful service. Have a DA as well that my wife likes. We'll see about the Abyssus - I get raged and throw my mice around a lot and it hasn't broken yet.

Actually I like it that way it works very well. For very low sens (45 cm/360) I prefer a LOD between 2 and say 4 mm because I feel more in control of fast movements like that. If the LOD is lower with that sens some fast turns do not work out for me-

I have a deathadder 3.5 right now. I was coming from a diamondback and tested a new DAA 3.5 vs a CM spawn. The DA won me over. Mainly because the spawn was too damn small for my hands. Hope to be able to give some of these other mice a try to compare.

I should mention although I have my DA 3.5 and like it. I had to replace the first one because of quality issues with the feet. besides that the sensor is good. Peace.

Is there anyone here who could recommend a certain mouse for a certain kind of player? I play low-sens mostly with accel (altho not in all the games I play) and I'd love a mouse that would really fit my playstyle. I'm currently using SteelSeries Xai and it's fine but in some situations it really fucks up (if I double zoom on awp in cs and move mouse slowly it will not move horizontally at all). Using Roccat Taito mousepad which is cloth. I'd really like a mouse that is consistent and doesn't fuck up at times.

so according to this the cm storm spawn and razer abyssus use flawless sensors. can anyone help me out here, why do i still have such bad tracking? (fast circles without moving the hand, tried different dpi/polling rate settings, doesn't change it)

i've tested a MX518, too. has the same pattern. so i thought it's probably windows accel (although i've already applied MarkC's thing and the recorder says everything's alright). idk what to do anymore. i play osu and have to relocate the mouse every minute and if there's no break for 1 minute i keep failing because of the bad position of my hand. i'm in desperate need for help. why do these mice do whatever they want?

i did that. didn't change the outcome. i've found out it's probably due to the shape of the spawn that i developed some very bad habits in the way i hold my mice. i got normal circles going on center-positioned sensors, but can't get them done on the spawn. i want a small mouse, so i'm pretty screwed now. is the zowie AM on 1150dpi worth the 60eur or should i look around for a kinzuadder? is it hard to get used to a bigger mouse (DA/g400) when i need vertical movement as much as horizontal movement (osu! rather than fps)? fml.

might be the case indeed, but not gonna risk taking another one, it jitters just like the faulty abyssus models. Gonna ask for refund and try and grab a DA 3G model. Even tho this is gonna be epic to find some ;((

Good luck finding an old 3G. If you can't find one just get another 3.5 - mine's been perfectly fine. You might've managed to get one with the old firmware or something. The early versions were a little wonky, but the newer firmware should fix it.

not gonna bother reading this thread and all the other related ones. Which abyssus models (hopefully with P/N) have flawless sensors?

edit: lol realized I posted the same thing here exactly a year ago and no one could answer that, to the point the conclusion was that probably someone invented the so called different firmware versions theory.

You never could and from the looks of it never will be able to know if the Abyssus you are about to buy has the newer firmware.

And after I talked to a lot of (ex) Abyssus owners I saw that one by one they all said the same thing - even if you get a "working" one it usually starts jittering after few weeks/months even if it worked fine before. By that time you are used to the mouse so you don't want to switch but can't use it since the jitter is always annoying (even if it's minor on certain pads).

"Important : The first generation of G400 are shipped with an Avago 3080E sensor which has prediction ; to avoid it buy a G400 with a PID above LZ13333 (located under the mouse), which packaging is different (see Chris_P -from the Logitech Team- statement here) by having a Logitech sticker looking like that (supposedly ; good luck)."

They're shipped with both S3095 and A3080E. The A3080E's were uploaded with an S3095 SROM (800-3600 CPI vs 800-1800)

Why write "F****k" instead of "fuck"? It's the same thing, just looks different. Means the same thing, everyone knows what you mean when you write it, so why not just write "fuck" and stop being overly sensitive and write stupid things like "F****k".

Untrue :) It can be used for VOIP software, only you can't use any of the lock keys (numlock, capslock etc) for it, as it causes stutter. In no means does that mean that you can't use VOIP software with it just because of that :) Refrain from using those keys and you'll be just fine.

"i can reproduce the bug on windows 7 x64 with more than just the caps lock / led keys. if i hold down the keys "W" "A" and "D" at the same time and move the mouse my cpu usage skyrockets to 50%. ". the CM STORM spawn is garbage, you should thoroughly test it before using. read the thread, there's enough comments to shy away any serious gamer from buying that piece of shit.

For you, I just did a test of what you described (or quoted? dno, dntcare), plus a little more.

I am utterly serious when I say that I do not feel ANY of the stuff you're talking about. I'm using Windows 7 64bit as well, and I have yet to come across any other bug than the caps, num and scrollock button problems while using VOIP. Tested both TS3, Ventrilo and Mumble (5 of the latest stable ones). I do not know why you experience this, but I can understand if you say the mouse is shit because of it, because obviously, symptoms like that are not supposed to be in any gaming mouse, but I'd advise you to try out a second one. Warranty has a purpose, you know =)

well lots of other people have reported the issue on the forums in that thread, and CM haven't came out and said they've found a fix for it, in fact the moderator of the whole CM Storm Spawn forum has mentioned he can reproduce the bug and hopes to get it fixed. yet that thread still hasn't gotten a reply about there being a fix. i can only think that maybe you're not performing the test correctly? or you have the right motherboard / luck combo.

When all comes to all, I think I will praise myself lucky that I am not able to reproduce any of said bugs, and it quite possibly is me failing at doing the test properly; however all of the conditions are met.

After all, there IS a limit to how much one has to do to gain the problems explained, and during a gaming situation, I'm happy it hasn't happened yet to me :)

I saw the threads myself, and I sincerely hope they fix it, as this mouse is by far one of the best I have ever held in my hands, if not THE best.
At this moment I'm glad I did not go for a Zowie.

I haven't measured it precisely but I would generally say I am close to yours. Probably more like 60cm/360° or so. I tried playing with higher sensitivities aswell, closing in on a good 30cm/360° aswell, but I did not get any of the problems.

My serial number says SGM2000MLON11111400406, but I think the model is what is important here.
The model is exactly this: SGM-2000-ML0N1

I knew there was a difference when i used the previous IE3 and the current IE3 of mine, and i found out that the previous IE3 had better "verticle " and " Horizontal " direction movements compared to this current one. I know there's a difference when i sense one. It's much more " straighter and stable " and less " movement " if you know what i mean. I'm playing this game call " Sudden Attack " so yeah headlines are quite important for me, but it always seems to move a little towards up and then down when i move in a verticle line, Shown in the image above. So yeah =\ sorry for making you guys take all the troubles to figure out whats wrong but is there any drivers that might help a little?

As someone that has been searching for a new mouse, this thread was incredible, thanks.

Just got an abyssus (non mirror) shipped from Razer's website. Serial number starts PM12 so I believe these should be pretty recent. My machine is running Windows 7 64 bit.

Jitter still exists on Ikea wood, paper, cloth, and a Britemat (not a gaming mousepad , and its so old/worn down that it's arguable to be better than a table). With and without the razer app installed. In my test it was just slow vertical motion, with no angle of the mouse (and I didn't bother to see if that would exacerbate the jitter). The jitter is reduced at lower dpis, but comes back as soon as you up the OS mouse speed. Higher DPI still caused more jitter overall.

My comparison was my old mouse (g9x on ANY of the above surface), which clearly showed better lines in mspaint.

I'm waiting for a Razer Scarab mousepad to come in before I make any final judgement. I love the shape and weight.

Well I will have to lower my sens because my monitor doesn't support 640 full screen.
At least it didn't work last time I tried, it's a viewsonic VX2268WM.
Still I don't understand why so many so-called 'experts' say DPI is overrated since it's useful for high sens users... .

It's because you don't need more than about 1200dpi to play 15cm/360 @ 1080p so these extreme dpi values aren't really useful unless you play 5cm/360 at zuber high res, and besides that most peoples sens ranges from 32-18cm/360.

that could be the source of your pixel skipping (remember that WMO has a very low DPI and that you are using a pretty high sens)

EDIT: now I've seen, 1920x1080 as I suspected... for 13 cm, it means you are using a sens of about 8, and it means you would need at least 742 dpi to have a pixel precise movement...
With sensitivity 4, you would be around estimated 500 dpi and that would be a lot better (but you wold need 25 cm to a 360° turn)

If you like high sensitivity with that high resolution, you should take in consideration another mouse (like the Razer Abyssus that has a similar shape to the WMO but has more dpi settings like 450-1800-3600)

If it was working well, why don't just you just buy another one? D:
But anyway, I'm with my lachesis and it works fine ( and just figured out I'm with it for 3 years right now! :D).
Conclusion: since I know you will never ever gonna buy razer, and you just don't want a wmo/ime, go for another mx518 lols

ADNS-9800 (datasheet) is an evolution of g9x sensor (ADNS-9500, datasheet). in fact, it can reach 8200cpi vs 5040cpi, 12k vs 11.7k fps and - dunno if it's supported by g600 - a lift off detection between 1 and 5 mm.

An ADNS-9800's important difference with previous version is that it has a built-in low-pass filter on raw data when working at high resolutions. this should decrease the acceleration effect you can experience with g9x (it may work, but it seems a 'dirty' workaround to me).source here:

[...] 1:1 movement is shown as 100% on the graph above. With lower IPS movement, the Xai (ADNS-9800 as well, EN) hits a small negative acceleration curve around 0.6 or 0.7 meters/s or 25 IPS. After 1meter/s or 40 IPS, the sensor goes into a wobble effect of positive acceleration above the linear range. This remains the case with newer 9800 branded mice as well. Last update 7/28/2012 [... ]

and

The 9800 branded variant by default has a smoothing curve to clean up cursor movement at higher CPI.

Finally, this sensor performs as same as (low res and speed) or better (high res and speed) than 9500.

I like g9x (shape, weights and precision), but I wouldn't feel comfortable with g600 thumb buttons (like Razer Naga, I guess), which are made for MMO games.

I was just expressing my opinion. This way bst is only going to sell less than 100 units, because for that price you can buy a Zowie AM or a Razer Deathadder, both have pretty flawless sensors, good sensors and better coating matterials. This way BST Aurora cant be competitive.

Bst i think you are slowly becoming like razer. Your mouse is nothing more than the others being sold outhere like zowie am, puretrak valor, coolermaster spawn,...

The mouse you are creating is just another ordinary alternative to the other mouse avaible on the market. The Aurora is just like the other mouses but just with a different housing.

The costumization you did on that sensor is good but is still on par with the other alternatives.

I was really liked what you were doing with this project. Initially you were really working the community and trying to help it but now you are just taking corporative decisions that only hurt the pocket of the community and this pocket hasnt so many money as you think.

PS: you guys should ask yourselfs why the number of people posting on this topic as decreased and why almost all active users are kids so much and dont bother answering because you guys already know the question.

Same anonymous that posted on the other thread. Reply there, but in general terms if you know what you are writing about then you should acknowledge there's not a single mouse that's close to perfection. BST's might.

little question guys (bit offtopic :/):
i just bough sensei raw but was pissed that the setting "ExactTech" is missing.
description of the store says the raw has this setting and even a german preview video of steelseries said that...
well fact is the mouse dont have that option.
im about to send it back cuz of this crap, but wondering if its maybe better to keep it..

my pro and con:
(+) i dont see any accel in cs on 450dpi and sens 1.
(how come? what sensor do i got?) < ontopic ^^
(-) want to lower the LOD but can't due the lack of the setting...

do i need the other exacttech settings?
i rly dont need exactaim exactaccel and prediction.
and one important question: is prediction off by stock?

I can't help it but to state an important detail about how mice affect your overall accuracy.
Here it is:

First of all, there is a matter of HOW FAST you aim.
There is a speed limit, where you start noticing your crosshair as it moves towards target, and as you get visual confirmation, you will adjust so that you put your crosshair at the exact spot you want.
This means that by default, you will loose time compared to someone that doesn't wait to see.

Now comes the tricky part. The brain, can't learn to maintain a specific hand eye distance, unless it gets continuous confirmation from your actions. The ONLY way you are going to be sure that you can aim without receiving eye confirmation from your crosshair, is if you get consistent results previous to this point in time, and your brain has already learned the exact eye to hand distance conversion.

But what happens if you get different results based on things like, dust on the pad, light from the window, worn pad on a specific place, negative accel at high speeds, positive accel, etc etc. Will your brain ever learn the exact eye-crosshair ratio? Can your brain learn it when is constantly changing? I doubt it. What you can do maximum, is to accept that there is some error, move your cursor as fast as you can to the spot where your brain thinks is the target, and adjust afterwards so that you actually hit the target.

So the difference between a normal mouse, and a perfect tracking mouse is huge. The only problem is that the perfect tracking mouse doesn't exist. And no matter how hard you try, you will never have your brain aim perfectly, due to your feedback changing constantly due to various things that affect your results.

Nice thread, pretty confusing though..
I need a light mouse, coming from a DA 3.5g. I was contemplating buying an abyssus or a roccat kova+, however the abyssus has some problems with the qck+?
also, does the kova have a decent sensor and if not, whats wrong with it?
all help would be greatly appreciated!

MSIE 3.0 has negative acceleration, so it should not be listed as flawless.

I've owned 3 copies of the MSIE 3.0 mouse (I'm using one right now) and I've tested this more than once so I'm 100% sure of it.

I'm currently trying the Zowie AM and the Zowie EC1 eVo for gaming.

The first major conclusion is that the advertised DPI is not really true. Both mice claim the same DPI steps, but when I plug them both at the same time I can definitely feel the difference. To get the same distance / 360ŗ in CS I use 1.9 sens with the AM and 2.15 with the EC1 eVo.
This might be explained by the lenses that these mice use, but nonetheless I was expecting to see the same rotation in both mice for the same travel distance and same DPI setting.

I can also notice a different axis tracking. The same swipe will produce a different trajectory on screen, with the EC1 going downwards compared to the AM when I swipe to the right. This has no influence after I adapt to it, but I can definitely tell the difference when I switch.
Maybe it has to do with the sensor placing, maybe it has to do with my grip. Either way, I think it's noteworthy.

I can also tell a big difference in terms of LOD on my QcK+. I'm using an extra set of MSIE3.0 stakes on my EC1 eVo to make the LOD shorter, which I don't need in the AM. Both are now with identical LODs, altough I haven't really measured it with precision.

Other than that I'm loving both mice and I'm struggling to decide which one I'll adopt.

the mice are not flawless so they should not be listed as such. I find this topic to be really useful and overall an excellent idea, but I'm suggesting that each flaw should be listed for each mice in a bit more detail. I specifically mentioned the MSIE3.0 and the Zowies simply because those are the mice I currently own and therefore the ones where I can contribute with some feedback.

Many sadly just want a straight forward answer. Mice in general are not straight forward as tracking properties differ by surface (lift off detection, IPS speed...) Hardware and configuration contribute.

DA 3.5G is no good. It has drift control that makes precise aiming impossible at high sensitivity.
Then we got high lift-off distance. I had developped a habit of using the mouse "on air" thereby grouding my wrist. At least to me, it is neither for swipe nor for accel.

The G500 on the other hand showed a very slight positive accel curve (FW 58.18) in my personal tests.

DA3.5G has no or never had angle snapping. (Marketed as drift control). On the flip side, the DA3G had angle snapping for a good 2-3 years before Razer released a FW update with the capabilities to disable. It seems you may have confused these mice.

Higher lift off distance is in no way a "flaw" due to the inherit properties of how light refracts off of a surface.

I understand the preferences, though such can be achieved by other means without modification. (IE. mousing surface)

I've contacted Roccat about Savu's issues, that random pointing up thing and sensor not following in every situation, when movement is fast. They said they will test with Quakelive to see if they reproduce the issue, and contact me about the results. Would be cool if they found the issue and would be able to fix that. Otherwise i like Savu. It's accurate when it works.

Yes. The build quality is exceptional also. The sensor is and feels great. The mousebuttons, albeit a bit hard at the start, feel great after some usage and after you get used to them. Very precise. Also, even though its not a dealbreaker, you dont have to mess about with drivers. Heck, even my mom said she liked the feel of it after having used my computer.

The only thing about this mouse is the scrollwheel isnt perfect or that you cant turn the wheellight off (imho). Apparently the malfunction speed is rather low, I havent hit it though @28cm/360.

you guys are lazy bastards.. this thread hhasnt been updated for well over a year now and yet nobody else has opened a new one, taking over information of this one and adding new with the help of the community.

sorry I don't come here anymore
I anyone wanna redo the thread elsewhere, here the OP's code : http://pastebin.com/EJEeR72Q
ofc if an admin wanna give this thread to another user (considering there are useful informations in the comments), np

it says 3G on the back, but when I google it, it says 3.5G..
anyway some questions:
1.how to update the firmware of the mouse?
2.can it be used with 800 dpi?
3. 1000hz or 500hz? (my cpu is strong enough:P)

guys i need your advice....
im currently using a g400 on a puretrak talent.
its feels good, but im not really satisfied with the shape of the mouse and the shitty cable.
im lookin to buy one of the zowie mice, but not sure what to buy.
im using a clawgrip and have med-big hands.

currently not sure if i should go for the FK as some people say its very small.

Yeah... The G400 isn't really optimal for clawing. I wouldn't say the FK is "very small". Just look at some comparison pictures. With claw grip and medium hands, both the AM and FK would probably fit you, you just need to figure out whether you prefer a \/ or a /\ shape to decide between them.

the sensor is the same model and tracking wise, only difference is that zowie uses some wierd custom DPI steps and their modded lens has a lower LOD.
slighht differences in malfunction speed with different DPI steps.

so is there no difference between those two performance wise?
what does weird custom dpi steps mean are Zowies dpi presets interpolated or what?
the custom lense and lower LOD sounds like and advantage to me, atleast if the mouse has no tracking issue on the pad used.

zowies got a 'x1.3125' magnification lens(which already on itself makes the max speed = 76% of the one possible with standart lens). The tracking isn't noticeably worse with that lens in comparison to g400(which also got the custom lens, but not magnifying one), though it seems to be worse focused and tends to skip on some surfaces.
As for dpi they're being interpolated from default 1800dpi value(450=1800/5*lens magnification, 1150 = 1800/2*magnification, 2300=1800*magnification), but that ain't really any bad thing on itself. Though zowie's MCU doesnt seem to handle it and lowers max speed a bit on values other than max. But that speed lowered by lens and MCU is ~3m/s which is enough for almost everyone tbh.

i think i wrote formulas pretty clearly saying where those steps are coming from i.e 450 is interpolated from 1800 native registry divided by 5 which is 360 dpi which is pushed up to 360*1.3125=450dpi by lens magnification, etc

Yes! It would be wonderful to have info on new mice... and also a section for mice with prediction but no other sensor problems.

Wata has already said someone should take over with a new topic

"sorry I don't come here anymore
I anyone wanna redo the thread elsewhere, here the OP's code : http://pastebin.com/EJEeR72Q
ofc if an admin wanna give this thread to another user (considering there are useful informations in the comments), np "

Hey Guys, great work you're doing here.
I am into competitive CS:GO now and I currently use a Sharkoon Fireglider.
I know that Sharkoon is not a top notch peripheral company, but two years ago, I didn't know lot about mice and needed an ok one.
So I looked at the specs and price and went for it.
Now, after 2 years I need a good mouse.
I mean, the best one out there, I care about the sensor a lot.I don't want no acceleration or prediction.I have small hands and stuff, but ergonomics are very personal to everyone's preferences and something I can get used to. I dont care about high dpis, I dont care about 1000 buttons or lights, I actually just need one thumb button and the standard stuff.
AND the customer support. This is important to me as I want to stick to that mouse for a long time. I would want it replaced if it had cord-break or other malfunctions.

So I looked and gathered a lot of info and found myself somewhere between the zowies am/-gs/fk and the ss kana.

The prices would be 60 for the zowies and 40 for the kana.
I wouldn't mind that 20 if is worth it.
What are you guys thinking?
Which one is the mouse for me?

Sharkoon is just an OEM vendor for A4tech, who otherwise are known to make mice with the highest price:performance ratio as well as the best software/macro features - at least very much worthwhile than the steelseries progamur brand=ca$$$h prices.

The FireGlider is just an rebranded XL-740k - it uses the a6010 which is the same as the ones on MS Sidewinder mice. I'm not so sure about the laser ones as I only use optical ones myself, but things should be good provided that you've installed their drivers and stuff to make sure that the mouse polling rate doesn't run at the default 125hz.

That you've used it for 2yrs without it breaking shows that their quality is already better than razer or the current logitech mice lol

It depends on your playstyle. For a low sense player certain mouse would render their game completely unplayable. SS is considered bad because you could've probably gotten an a4tech mouse at 1/2 or 1/3 of the price that outperforms it.

A person that prefers to play with 400 DPI making big sweeps with their arm is not going to be able to play properly on a mico which is known to have bad tracking speed.

I as an low-midsense player not too recently went from an eblue cobra jr (only because it had the shape of diamondback) to a mouse with an a3080 sensor. It made a big difference, as I'm suddenly able do quick 140s to keep up with people jumping past me at close range and shoot them while they do so. Some people might not care but the difference is there.

It's just like people saying that they're fine with 60hz / FPS when there's 120 or console players fine with (lol) 30 fps

Thank you guys! I have a lot better idea now. Certainly I was not thinking that I'm becoming forest himself in cs:go with a new mouse.
As I said. I need a decent one now, to stick to. And I want to do this mouse selection once in couple of years, so... I think Zowie FK is the way for me. Although I will miss the a4tech software things. You can play around so much with that driver stuff :D But at the end of the day, I never ever really used to an extent that i would actually benefit from it play-wise.
Greetings from Germany !

I see the zowie FK getting a lot of love...but the ec1/ec2 evo's make more sense for more people due to the grip design. Sensor/lens is exactly the same, correct? FK is the exact same mouse with a super low profile and slim body. I don't see alot of people using this comfortably or being happy about it outside of the performance of the sensor.

TL;DR if you are thinking you want to purchase an FK, probably purchase an EC1 evo or EC2 evo instead?...

Any more news on this, i wish to buy a new Deathadder and im told the quality of the build is much better with the Black Edition so asuming the sensor is the same as my "refresh" i should be good to go.

Are any of those Microsoft mice still in production?
Or did they ever make a refresh of them using the same sensor?

@ the guy above me:
AM is closer to the wmo in terms of shape.
Not sure which one is closer in size, FK is the smaller one of the two.
If the g400 is to big and heavy for you, the AM and FK will definitely be an improvement for you, since they are both smaller and lighter than the g400.
Plus the g400 just doesn't work well for anything but palm grip.

Does someone knows the best dpi(native dpi) of razer imperator 3.5G version? I guess the sensor matters, so whats the native dpi of 3.5G sensor(laser, not 3.5g DA optical sensor)? I bet it's not 5600dpi as they advertise it. Thanks in advance( pluses on the replies! :D)!

it would be rather helpful if you'd add coloured numbering to the list and the pictures of all the different mice so people would know which one's which, and could easily connect the name and dimensions to the pic of the mouse itself.

I recently went from a Zowie AM to a Zowie EC1 CL evo and I prefer the bigger shape and the faster mouse wheel. The buttons feel very similar and the sensor is basically identical. All tests come out the same, so near flawless just like the other Zowie mice. Its pretty light for its size too.

They didn't confirm the abandonment of g3/g300 series yet, so some mid-size mouse might come out soon. Not sure they're gonna use the same sensor as g502 has though since that way it would be a straight price competitior to their g400s and they always tend to have 1-mouse-for-this-price lineup.
On another hand g100s is more premium than g1/g100 was so it might have somewhat replaced that g3* lineup :/