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This is a really interesting topic as well as people's views here. Of course, I think a character's identity is first recognized by his/her outside appearance. And the artist plays an important role here. Somehow if the same character is drawn by another artist (Example is doujinshi drawing), I can't see them as the same character despite their clothes are the same.

The number one factor would be the character design. Everything else is just secondary.

I don't think it's always the case. Because some characters have very similar looks but are still different, like for example that many people were comparing the designs of Suzumiya Haruhi, Nakamura Yuri and Takanashi Sora.

I don't think it's always the case. Because some characters have very similar looks but are still different, like for example that many people were comparing the designs of Suzumiya Haruhi, Nakamura Yuri and Takanashi Sora.

It's not like I said character design is the only factor. As I've said it's the primary factor and everything else is secondary. A character with an outstanding design is bound to be identifiable or recognizable because it's no secret that people like outstanding designs. We have BRS as proof of that. A mere character design getting it's own fandom just for being badass. You can also take a look at video game characters. Video game characters have non existent character development and yet some characters are clearly more well known to people who don't have much exposure to the source material like Nakoruru for example.

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

It's not like I said character design is the only factor. As I've said it's the primary factor and everything else is secondary. A character with an outstanding design is bound to be identifiable or recognizable because it's no secret that people like outstanding designs. We have BRS as proof of that. A mere character design getting it's own fandom just for being badass. You can also take a look at video game characters. Video game characters have non existent character development and yet some characters are clearly more well known to people who don't have much exposure to the source material like Nakoruru for example.

Yet there are also fictive characters that are very recognizable that don't look that that unique or very distinguisable like Ryo Hayabusa from ninja gaiden (his design is not that much different from most ninja's), Gordon Freeman from Half life or in the case of animes: normal looking people like Ikari Shinji from NGE or Okabe Rintarou from Steins;Gate.
While i think that that the design is important, i don't think you can classify it as the primary reason. In this case i also think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Yet there are also fictive characters that are very recognizable that don't look that that unique or very distinguisable like Ryo Hayabusa from ninja gaiden (his design is not that much different from most ninja's), Gordon Freeman from Half life or in the case of animes: normal looking people like Ikari Shinji from NGE or Okabe Rintarou from Steins;Gate.
While i think that that the design is important, i don't think you can classify it as the primary reason. In this case i also think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

How many "mainstream" ninja characters out there that looks like Ryo Hayabusa can you name? As for these "normal looking" characters while they may be known to people who are familiar to the source material they aren't really what you can call recognizable. How many people do you think would stop and inquire who Okabe is and which series is he from if they saw his pic in a gallery? Answer not many people.

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

How many "mainstream" ninja characters out there that looks like Ryo Hayabusa can you name?

This isn't a matter of mainstream but rather being "identifiable". As for as ninja's goes, Ryo does not differ too much from the regular image that people have from a ninja except being a little buffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

As for these "normal looking" characters while they may be known to people who are familiar to the source material they aren't really what you can call recognizable.

So you are saying that characters like Okabe Rintarou, Ikari Shinji are not recognizable ? People who haven't seen NGE or Steins;Gate , have atleast seen those characters somewhere.
As for my video game example of Gordon Freeman, he has been in multiple magazines, videogame sites and other sources in their top 100 video game characters for the past 14 years. Even gamers who never played Half life know about him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

How many people do you think would stop and inquire who Okabe is and which series is he from if they saw his pic in a gallery? Answer not many people.

Wasn't that my point? You are judging a book by it's cover. Some characters are identifiable by their actions and some are by their looks and most of the time it's both or more.
I don't think that characters like lelouch vi britannia , Yagami Light, Suzumiya Haruhi and Kamina (from TTGL), rider (Fate/Zero) , Misaka Mikoto stood out primarily because of their designs ?

This isn't a matter of mainstream but rather being "identifiable". As for as ninja's goes, Ryo does not differ too much from the regular image that people have from a ninja except being a little buffer.

But you can't name other ninjas that look like Ryo? I thought you said he doesn't look any different from other ninjas. To be frank I know a good number of ninja characters but I also cannot name one who I will mistake for Ryo.

Quote:

So you are saying that characters like Okabe Rintarou, Ikari Shinji are not recognizable ? People who haven't seen NGE or Steins;Gate , have atleast seen those characters somewhere.
As for my video game example of Gordon Freeman, he has been in multiple magazines, videogame sites and other sources in their top 100 video game characters for the past 14 years. Even gamers who never played Half life know about him.

Let's put it this way. If Steins Gate, NGE, and Half Life never got popular do you have the confidence to say that people will even stop and inquire about these characters?

Quote:

Wasn't that my point? You are judging a book by it's cover.
I don't think that like Suzumiya Haruhi and Kamina (from TTGL) stood out because of their designs but rather their actions as well?

Like I said, I never said that character designs is the only factor. I said it is the primary factor. A cool looking character can be recognizable even if said character came from an unpopular series. A normal looking character on the other hand is not likely to be recognized unless a secondary factor comes ino the equation like series popularity.

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

But you can't name other ninjas that look like Ryo? I thought you said he doesn't look any different from other ninjas. To be frank I know a good number of ninja characters but I also cannot name one who I will mistake for Ryo.

How is Ryo's design more unique than other ninja's? Joe Musashi from Shinobi and Kagemaru from Virtua fighter look mostly like a different coloured Ryo design wise.
Rikimaru from Tenchu has a stark resemble because he looks mostly like a white haired Ryo without a hood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Let's put it this way. If Steins Gate, NGE, and Half Life never got popular do you have the confidence to say that people will even stop and inquire about these characters?

You do know that the same can be said for almost every character? Like if the Haruhi or the index series novels were never a succes, do you think that lots of people would bother inquiring information about those series if they saw a picture of the cover art?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Like I said, I never said that character designs is the only factor. I said it is the primary factor. A cool looking character can be recognizable even if said character came from an unpopular series. A normal looking character on the other hand is not likely to be recognized unless a secondary factor comes ino the equation like series popularity.

A normal looking character can have appeal due to his or her actions in the course of that serie, which is in that case not a secundary factor but a primary factor.
As for some examples Steins;Gate, Puella Magi Madoka Magica and NGE probably became popular because of their story, settings and the character interactions and maybe more things, but i don't think it was primarily of their character designs.

A cool looking character that was for example horribly written is most likely not going to be remembered. Like some people felt that Necron was redundant in ff9 .

How is Ryo's design more unique than other ninja's? Joe Musashi from Shinobi and Kagemaru from Virtua fighter look mostly like a different coloured Ryo design wise.
Rikimaru from Tenchu has a stark resemble because he looks mostly like a white haired Ryo without a hood.

Please run a search for the latest Ryo Hayabusa design and not the old retro design. How can you possibly mistake Ryo for those you have mentioned?

Quote:

You do know that the same can be said for almost every character? Like if the Haruhi or the index series novels were never a succes, do you think that lots of people would bother inquiring information about those series if they saw a picture of the novel cover?

Yes, they would especially for characters with outstanding designs. How do you think Nakoruru became popular whereas the game she came from was an utter disappointment?

Quote:

A normal looking character can have appeal due to his or her actions in the course of that serie, which is in that case not a secundary factor but a primary factor.
As for some examples Steins;Gate, Puella Magi Madoka Magica and NGE probably became popular because of their story, settings and the character interactions and maybe more things, but i don't think it was primarily of their character designs.

A cool looking character that was for example horribly written is most likely not going to be remembered. Like some people felt that Necron was redundant in ff9 .

Again only people who are familiar with the source would take notice. That does not count as recognizable.

Make a gallery composed of 100 pictures, put 2 pictures of necron, put 2 of okabe, and have people with no knowledge of them browse through them. More likely than not more people would inquire about Necron. Does it matter if fans found Necron to be redundant while Okabe is the main of a popular series?

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

Please run a search for the latest Ryo Hayabusa design and not the old retro design. How can you possibly mistake Ryo for those you have mentioned?

Yes, they would especially for characters with outstanding designs. How do you think Nakoruru became popular whereas the game she came from was an utter disappointment?

Do you mean Nakoruru from Samurai Spirits? She was actually quite popular in that fighting game and the game itself was considered to be the best fighting game of 1993 and spawned many sequels? How can you say it's "an utter disappointment"

As for a counter example to your argument that characters with great designs are regardless still popular/recognizable, many characters from VN and eroge are barely known to people who don't read them unless there is an anime adaptation of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Again only people who are familiar with the source would take notice. That does not count as recognizable.

Make a gallery composed of 100 pictures, put 2 pictures of necron, put 2 of okabe, and have people with no knowledge of them browse through them. More likely than not more people would inquire about Necron. Does it matter if fans found Necron to be redundant while Okabe is the main of a popular series?

Name of this topic is still "What Makes An Anime or Character(s) "Identifiable" not who is recognizable?"

You still seem to think that the character design is the most important key factor.
How come that quite some series with great character designs and visuals ended up bombing on popularity and disc sales?

Do you mean Nakoruru from Samurai Spirits? She was actually quite popular in that fighting game and the game itself was considered to be the best fighting game of 1993 and spawned many sequels? How can you say it's "an utter disappointment"

As for a counter example to your argument that characters with great designs are regardless still popular/recognizable, many characters from VN and eroge are barely known to people who don't read them unless there is an anime adaptation of it.

Sorry but I beg to differ. SS was never more than a cult hit. Even during it's prime(which is to say the first 2 SS) where is the competition? Did it ever occur to you why Nakoruru was so popular compared to the rest of the SS roster?

And no, your argument is no counter. Remember I only said that character design is the primary factor. I never said it is the only factor. You seem to be always forgetting this point.

Quote:

Name of this topic is still "What Makes An Anime or Character(s) "Identifiable" not who is recognizable?"

You still seem to think that the character design is the most important key factor.
How come that quite some series with great character designs and visuals ended up bombing on popularity and disc sales?

And did you read the thread? Isn't it pretty obvious that the topic is ambiguous to begin with and a good number of people subscribed to "identifiable" as "recognizable?"

Like I said, just make a gallery... insert pictures of plain guy who did great things in his series then insert pictures of let's say Erio Touwa too in that gallery. Show to people who have no knowledge of them and see which character would people inquire more about. It's a no brainer that more people will inquire about Erio.

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

Sorry but I beg to differ. SS was never more than a cult hit. Even during it's prime(which is to say the first 2 SS) where is the competition? Did it ever occur to you why Nakoruru was so popular compared to the rest of the SS roster?

It spawned 11 more games , many oav's and drama cd's. Not bad for just a "cult hit".
At it's prime it had competition from the famous Street fighter II. If you meant prime and competiton with tournaments, then you are obviously lacking information in the japanese fighting game tournament department, because Samurai spirits V and VI were present in the biggest annual japanese tournament Tougeki of 2005 and 2006.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

And no, your argument is no counter. Remember I only said that character design is the primary factor. I never said it is the only factor. You seem to be always forgetting this point.

I never forgot it, but primary does mean the most dominent or prominent factor. My examples why visual novels that have good visuals are not known is a good counter argument, seeing that most people in this forum barely know about any characters in VN that not have been adapted in animes regardless that the art are in some occasions much better than most characters designs that i have seen in animes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

And did you read the thread? Isn't it pretty obvious that the topic is ambiguous to begin with and a good number of people subscribed to "identifiable" as "recognizable?"

No, he actually said identifiable as in more than character designs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirito

There are many anime that people enjoy, hate, and ignore or whatever. But this is what's been on my mind for a long time now: What is it that makes a character or an anime series itself "identifiable" to the viewers (ie us)? Is it because of the character designs, genre, personality traits, talents or powers, story, premise, setting etc.

Many people have their own perspective of what they like or hate in a series and what not, but what makes you identify a series or character(s) to the point where it's enjoyable or worse, depending on your preference.

So what's your thoughts about this? If you wish to comment that's fine, and if it's pointless, ignore this post. I needed to get this off chest.

You are only focusing on one aspect what he mentioned: the character design. While the topic starter probably had a much wider vision in mind, if you look at the red and bolded parts that i quoted.

edit: seeing that you very likely seem to like Puella Magi Madoka Magica because of your avatar and signature, let me ask you one thing:
Did you watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica primarily for the character design?

Based on your previous posts saying that "that character designs is the number one factor" , it must be yes.

Let me just say this - Character Designs are a big part of the reason why I became hyped up for Nanoha and Madoka, and they're also a big part of the reason why both are amongst my five all-time favorite anime shows/franchises.

Although, I will admit that way back when I first saw Mami's character design (before I even knew her name), I thought "Rifles? Really?"

But viewing Unlimited Musket Works and Tiro Finale made those "rifles" much cooler to me, lol.

Let me just say this - Character Designs are a big part of the reason why I became hyped up for Nanoha and Madoka, and they're also a big part of the reason why both are amongst my five all-time favorite anime shows/franchises.

Although, I will admit that way back when I first saw Mami's character design (before I even knew her name), I thought "Rifles? Really?"

But viewing Unlimited Musket Works and Tiro Finale made those "rifles" much cooler to me, lol.

Madoka's design didn't work for me initially because of it's cutesey Hidamari Sketch style, from that art i would have expected a normal mahou shoujo anime . It's started to work for me after episode 3, because it was such a stark contrast between the character design and darker settings and mood of the serie.

The design alone can't make a character identifiable, let alone elevate it to an icon status like Rei or EVA-01 are for NGE.
The key is how the design is handled and presented. This doesn't have much to do with actual plot and development of the character, but the impact it generates on the audience with simple actions (e.g. character introductions). We see Rei as a sort of ghost for the first time, and there is this ominous aura about her that makes her stand out.
EVA-01 owes its status as the trademark of NGE to the animators who made it so human-like in its movements, and also to the berserk fits it had on some episodes (the first ep and the one where it eats the angel come to mind).

It's not only the design and outline of the drawing that builds a character's identity in the fandom. I assume everyone takes for granted that the character needs to be in a popular show to be so highly regarded, and only one great character can't make a show popular by itself. You need some other elements to spice it up.

It spawned 11 more games , many oav's and drama cd's. Not bad for just a "cult hit".
At it's prime it had competition from the famous Street fighter II. If you meant prime and competiton with tournaments, then you are obviously lacking information in the japanese fighting game tournament department, because Samurai spirits V and VI were present in the biggest annual japanese tournament Tougeki of 2005 and 2006.

To be fair I don't follow the japanese tourneys that closely however I will have to point out that just because it had a presence(I'm betting a very minor presence) in a tournament does not elevate it from it's cult hit status.

And tell me... Those drama cds and oavs who are they mostly about? They are mostly about Nakoruru....

Quote:

I never forgot it, but primary does mean the most dominent or prominent factor. My examples why visual novels that have good visuals are not known is a good counter argument, seeing that most people in this forum barely know about any characters in VN that not have been adapted in animes regardless that the art are in some occasions much better than most characters designs that i have seen in animes.

Like I said it's not a counter. Please I know for a fact that there are tons of well designed characters out there that didn't become popular no need to point out the obvious. What part of "everything else is secondary" do you not understand? Just because character quirks, traits, and whatnot are only secondary does not mean they cannot make a character recognizable.

Quote:

No, he actually said identifiable as in more than character designs.

You are only focusing on one aspect what he mentioned: the character design. While the topic starter probably had a much wider vision in mind, if you look at the red and bolded parts that i quoted.

edit: seeing that you very likely seem to like Puella Magi Madoka Magica because of your avatar and signature, let me ask you one thing:
Did you watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica primarily for the character design?

Based on your previous posts saying that "that character designs is the number one factor" , it must be yes.

How do you even begin to apply your interpretation on BRS before the OVA and anime came out? I won't deny that I'm focusing on one aspect of what he mentioned but you know it's the only aspect you can even use on every character. Every character has it's own design be it written or drawn but not every character enjoys exposure and development.

And to answer your question, no, I did not watch PMMM based on character design. I never checked it's commercials to begin with. I simply checked it out because it is a Shaft show and I am glad I did.

Now let me ask you this: Why do you think Tecmo deemed it necessary to revamp Ryo's character design?

__________________

Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

To be fair I don't follow the japanese tourneys that closely however I will have to point out that just because it had a presence(I'm betting a very minor presence) in a tournament does not elevate it from it's cult hit status.

Minor presence? Tougeki is the Japanese equivelant of the American EVO (eventhough it's much bigger).
Define your own definition of cult status? Major fighting games in the USA like even Marvel vs Capcom 3 or Mortal Kombat are "cult status" games in japan, because it's hardly played at tourament level.
Likewise vice versa is also true, games like Melty blood and guilty gear are not played much in the USA while it was played alot in many japanese tournaments like A-cho. Heck, even blazblue can be considered to be a cult status game in the USA seeing that it was not even included in EVO or any major touraments this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

And tell me... Those drama cds and oavs who are they mostly about? They are mostly about Nakoruru....

What are you eevn talking about? 真説サムライスピリッツ武士道列伝 -ドラマＣＤ was mainly about her, but the other dramas were not entirely about her. Of course she is going to be popular and prominent, because she was one of the 2 female characters of the original first game (and the only recurring one in almost every game). She is like the Chun Li of Samurai spirits in that regard, but she acts more like a Mascot than Chun Li.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Like I said it's not a counter. Please I know for a fact that there are tons of well designed characters out there that didn't become popular no need to point out the obvious. What part of "everything else is secondary" do you not understand? Just because character quirks, traits, and whatnot are only secondary does not mean they cannot make a character recognizable.

Ok, what makes Haruhi more recognizable compared to Yuripe from angels beats or Takanashi Sora from Papakiki, if your primary concern is character design?
Or Corticarte from polyphonica and Inui Sana from Mashiro iro Symphony?
Most characters from clamp look very similar, so how does Suzuku from Code Geass look very different from the adult Syaoran from Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle or Yukito from Card captor sakura?
If you only look at the design, then are still many characters out there that have some resembles with others, yet their differences come other factrs like their role in the serie.

Also l agree with these posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.A.

The answer is one of the 12 basic principles of animation and character design, appeal.

No single story or character can be liked by everyone, they can only make themselves 'identifiable' in your words, through the way they appeal to audience.

To create appeal for anything, you need to draw out the strengths of each individual character, give them charisma, give more important characters more emphasis in design and story. Appeal is not just looking cool and pretty, its about the very personality of the characters. The hotblooded guy, the tsundere girl, the melodramatic villian, etc. Take all these personalities and strengthen them with their acting and appearance and people will recognise these characters through their performance.

If you want to generate any emotion or atmosphere, make it as strong as possible, combine the story and acting of the characters with the setting and lighting, put in the right sound track and set the mood. Let your audience feel exactly what you want them to feel your show and characters are about. Let them know and relate to the characters and bring them into the story.

Its all in the context, build up as much detail in the scenes. What era is the story set in? Where is the story taking place? What do the characters wear and how do they behave in this setting? How would the characters interact with each other and their setting?

There is alot to think when you are making an animation, animators need to be psychologists, actors, biologists, physicists, architects, fashion designers etc. and more. It is the most scientific and technical of all arts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shergal

The design alone can't make a character identifiable, let alone elevate it to an icon status like Rei or EVA-01 are for NGE.
The key is how the design is handled and presented. This doesn't have much to do with actual plot and development of the character, but the impact it generates on the audience with simple actions (e.g. character introductions). We see Rei as a sort of ghost for the first time, and there is this ominous aura about her that makes her stand out.
EVA-01 owes its status as the trademark of NGE to the animators who made it so human-like in its movements, and also to the berserk fits it had on some episodes (the first ep and the one where it eats the angel come to mind).

It's not only the design and outline of the drawing that builds a character's identity in the fandom. I assume everyone takes for granted that the character needs to be in a popular show to be so highly regarded, and only one great character can't make a show popular by itself. You need some other elements to spice it up.

I think they explain very well why it's not just the character design that makes a character or story appealing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Let me ask you this since you are insisting that he cannot possibly mean recognizable in his question. How do you even begin to apply your interpretation on BRS before the OVA and anime came out?

BRS was incidental, it's not like every other random popular MAD or AMV character have become popular enough to get it's own series. Unless you can name me some more examples.
It's not like i have seen an actual anime with Touhou characters (that doujin OAV doesn't exactly count seeing that it was not official and even if you did, there are still no other Touhou animes aside from a new OAV planned by the same people) or vocaloid characters or their recoloured versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

And no I did not watch PMMM based on character design. I never checked it's commercials to begin with. I simply checked it out because it is a Shaft show.

Doesn't this mean that your main reason for it was not primary the character design? You are contradicting your own post that started this discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

The number one factor would be the character design. Everything else is just secondary.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Now let me ask you this: Why do you think Tecmo deemed it necessary to revamp Ryo's character design?

That's like asking why Marvel and DC redesigned thor, Iron Man, green lantern, spiderman, batman or many other characters over the years.
The answer is like C.A. has already pointed out: appeal.
Your audience and times have changed, so of course you have to adjust it to their current tastes.