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Location: Where there are no mallets or tentacles.... and the female cast of Tenjou Tenge is mine, all mine!

Age: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Touko

Spoiler:

What inept decision?

The lineage is dying. Zouken does not care how his descents are breeding. NOTHING is going to reverse that. And this is the reason Zouken did not do a thing about Byakuya marrying some random wench. (Shinji's mom is from some 3rd rate House. You would not expect good result either way.)

He harbored a little glimmer of hope about taking advantage of Aoi's trait, but Kariya quit on him. That's why he hated Kariya so much and wanted to torment him.

Tokiomi is not privy to all this. All he knew was Matou was once their powerful ally in forging the Grail, and for all he knew, still is.

Also, you do not just snoop around another mage's workshop and have a open tour.

You can rage about Sakura's situation all you want, but you are looking at this through the 4th wall.

Tokiomi made the right decisions as a magus who does not want to doom his daughter to popping babies for another mage house, given the information he had.

Spoiler for answer:

Well obviously Kariya quit on him for obvious reasons. You don't need fourth wall knowledge because just by what Kariya said, staying wasn't a good idea. It was also a factor that is well known that the family refused any apprentices that came to their doorstep for centuries. That was mentioned in HF.

Again, this needs no 4th wall knowledge, he screwed up, and hastily threw her to the Matou because "whoops, our gamble she would be normal failed!". It is complete and utter nonsense to claim there was nothing he could do and that this was an accident. Plus, from what we know, this pregnancy wasn't an accident.

That is the same as deciding to have a child when both parents are HIV infected and not preparing any countermeasures until way after the birth. Face it that is pretty darn silly.

Now the actual adoption I can't really complain about except for one thing, there was no need to restrict his wife access to her child, as she can't be used as a spy. So the agreement to keep the family apart was his prerogative more than something that needed to be done. Adoptions usually call for the families to be separated, but not always, and that is because of problems in the home, abuse, or matters which might cause the child harm or neglect to give cause to restrict access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

It's also not a well-known trait if Tokiomi didn't seem to be aware of it until Sakura.

It seems there's quite the lack of empathy going here; a literal lack of the ability to be in the character's shoes is almost prevalent. It's a lot easier to criticize when you have more knowledge and didn't grow up in the circumstances. Doubly so because this is a fictional piece where the way people act only has to be internally consistent and not necessarily consistent with reality. This is a world where someone like Shirou and Kirei exist for instance.

That pretty much then says that Zouken of all people knows more about the wife than the husband does. That is a bit sad, as I haven't seen anything saying the Zenjou (Aoi's birth family) and the Makiri were that close. Except for the relationship between Kariya and Aoi during their childhood.

But you'd think such things would have been told to Tokiomi as well by his in-laws. Like, "Hey, son-in-law! You really lucked out, this girl here you snagged? Well our little family here has a thing that makes the kids born from our women the best they can be! Whadja think of that? Oh, and pass the pot roast."

The problem is not that I do not have empathy, but bottom line, he rolled the dice for no real reason and knew the repercussions he would face. With the way things are done, he is not the one who will have to live with the aftermath, the child will. I don't see that as a lack of empathy, but the honest truth.

Well we can't even really say that given the enormity of the damage his wish could cause. Trying to rewrite human nature could even be seen as more selfish, and not weighing the terrible price to be paid in the long run by essentially lobotomizing humanity.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", as much as I hate that phrase, sometimes rings true.

The consequences of Kiritsugu's wish are unrelated to him being selfless or not. The idea is that his intentions are (almost) completely selfless. I mean, this is a man who literally threw away all the happiness he could find for the sake of the world. His selflessness goes to such extremes that his sense of self could be said to be nearly non-existent. He is a person who would gladly sacrifice all he has for faces he's never seen, and he doesn't discriminate between the people he saves. Whatever harm his wish brings, just remember that he does it not for his own sake, but for the world's.

Oh, yes. Say what you like about his methods, but Kiritsugu is the closest thing to "selfless" that this show can offer, making him an appropriate example for what I was trying to say indeed.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

The consequences of Kiritsugu's wish are unrelated to him being selfless or not. The idea is that his intentions are (almost) completely selfless. I mean, this is a man who literally threw away all the happiness he could find for the sake of the world. His selflessness goes to such extremes that his sense of self could be said to be nearly non-existent. He is a person who would gladly sacrifice all he has for faces he's never seen, and he doesn't discriminate between the people he saves. Whatever harm his wish brings, just remember that he does it not for his own sake, but for the world's.

Oh, yes. Say what you like about his methods, but Kiritsugu is the closest thing to "selfless" that this show can offer, making him an appropriate example for what I was trying to say indeed.

From all your posts you seem to greatly admire or at the very least promote this style of selflessness as the penultimate form of human morality. I fundamentally disagree. I think a man can still be great even if some of his motives are impure. After all, I love my family and expect that to be reciprocated... there's undeniable, intrinsic selfishness involved, but I don't see how that's an inherently bad thing.

Of course, in Kariya's case, his selfish motivations led to disaster. But had he saved Sakura and done so based on impure motivations, well whatever. Some good came of it, no?

From all your posts you seem to greatly admire or at the very least promote this style of selflessness as the penultimate form of human morality. I fundamentally disagree. I think a man can still be great even if some of his motives are impure. After all, I love my family and expect that to be reciprocated... there's undeniable, intrinsic selfishness involved, but I don't see how that's an inherently bad thing.

Of course, in Kariya's case, his selfish motivations led to disaster. But had he saved Sakura and done so based on impure motivations, well whatever. Some good came of it, no?

All I wanted to say is that being selfless is just as bad as being selfish, maybe worse.

I'm not saying I admire him, and I'm certainly not looking to him as a good role model. It's quite the opposite actually. Kiritsugu is a monster, arguably even more so than Kirei or Zouken. However, he goes in the opposite extreme, going for a form of "extreme selflessness". He's a cruel deconstruction of the selfless superhero and a good example of what happens when a character is too selfless.

I'm not making moral judgments here, and I'm purposefully sidestepping that line of discussion. Please reconsider your baseless assertions.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

Dogding such things does not help the flow of a conversation, nor foster a debate because one can sidestep the entire thing.

It is not well mannered to not take a position when one looks like they are taking a position as it makes your "opponent" look like a fool unintentionally because they always seem to misunderstand your point because you keep evading making one that is constant.

That may be, but the topic keeps heading in that direction because of the subject matter.

It also may be due to word usage as certan words can be attached to a moral stance.

Also humans tend to think in terms of moral ground when it comes to "right" and "wrong" even if those two words never come up in the conversation. Selfish and selfless tend to be draw in moral implications over an action.

Also humans tend to think in terms of moral ground when it comes to "right" and "wrong" even if those two words never come up in the conversation. Selfish and selfless tend to be draw in moral implications over an action.

I can understand if it were just "right" and "wrong", but "selfish" and "selfless" always struck me as neutral words since they can be objectively defined. Or maybe that's just me speaking as a moral relativist.

Anyway, I avoid morality discussions because it's a quick way for an argument to go nowhere fast, but if anyone wants to pursue the subject, then I would willingly oblige.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

All three I'd say. Attempting to go down in a Blaze of Glory, died unmourned and ignored due to Berserker, who would of course take the spotlight (most servants do when they die as well) all while having a delution about Sakura as he dies.

It would be just the sort of false Hope thing Gen loves to thrown his characters into.

The anime changed the scenario with Aoi's "death" from the light novel:

Spoiler:

Kariya went insane and lashed out anyone who was near and ended up grabbing Aoi's neck and nearly choked her to death only to let go when his senses came back for a moment and Aoi survived....physically at least.

Mentally....she is stuck in a "dream" in which neither her husband or Sakura went missing from her life. She becomes "insane" to a degree and barely register's Rin whenever she comes over to her.

The anime changed the scenario with Aoi's "death" from the light novel:

Spoiler:

Kariya went insane and lashed out anyone who was near and ended up grabbing Aoi's neck and nearly choked her to death only to let go when his senses came back for a moment and Aoi survived....physically at least.

Mentally....she is stuck in a "dream" in which neither her husband or Sakura went missing from her life. She becomes "insane" to a degree and barely register's Rin whenever she comes over to her.