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The $450 quote sounds a lot more in the ballpark than the $300 price. IMO, the Dampp-Chaser is a wise investment. But don't expect to skimp on tunings because of the improved tuning stability you'll likely experience.

Given that the humidity affecting a grand piano - any piano for that matter - is that of the room in which the piano is located, and given that it is virtually impossible to create a micro-climate under the (open) underside of a grand piano, all the Dampp-Chaser is doing when dehumidifying is creating two (or three, depending on piano size) strips of heated air immediately adjacent to the sound board, but only in those areas where the strips are located. The rest of the sound-board is subject to the ambient temperature and humidity of the air circulating within the room. The temperature of the room could be considerably lower than that of the air next to the heater bars under the piano. I would argue - I do argue! - that you are doing more harm than good to a piano to have two (or three) narrow strips of the sound board heated to a higher temperature than the rest of the sound board.

It seems to me that humidification would be similarly narrowly localized, although I think the effect on the piano might - I say might - be less damaging.

On an upright, however, although the interior is not hermetically sealed from the ambient room humidity and temperature, there should be a better chance of a Dampp-Chaser creating a somewhat uniform microclimate inside the piano, just by the nature of its being an enclosed structure.

Now, ask me why Dampp-Chaser has been such a successfully marketed product and why so many individuals and institutions use it for thousands of pianos, I will simply have to say I don't know. It defies any elementary logic that I can devise. It makes more sense to me to work on ways of controlling room temperature and humidity than to try to control the humidity and tempoerature under a grand piano. However, I'm not known for the brilliance of my intellect, and I'm willing to be convinced, if I can be convinced, of the efficacy of such a system for a grand piano. Others more informed than I have argued this question on this forum at other times, and I remain unconvinced by their logic. Does any one else care to enlighten my dim-witted stance?

I can't enlighten any better than you did, but I totally aggree with you. With two digital gauges in and out of an upright, one of the biggest things I noticed was just how hard it was to approach a microclimate, where the heater rods could take effect. I can only assume one should forget it with a grand and realize that any thingy's put in it/around it will be a *distant* second to simply controling the room.

The humidistat I bought for my home spun internal system would look very nice on, and, indeed, was meant for a wall. You'd be violating code to do that yourself (BTDT ), but with success you'd really have something to show the forum.

Johnson Controls makes them. Because of a human hair element, they literally signal on/off during bad hair days :).

There is no question that controlling ambient temperature and humidity are a lot more effective in perserving the integrity of the soundboard than trying to create a microclimate on just one side of the soundboard. If the humidity on one side of the soundboard is very different compared to the other side, a humidity gradient is likely to be created across the thickness of the soundboard (bear in mind that it takes time for moisture to 'migrate' through the soundboard). The result is the development of internal shear stress in the soundboard (the more humid side tries to expand, but is restrained from doing so by the less humid side). This is definitely not desirable. Despite what people say about the effectiveness of the Dampp-Chaser System, I, like BruceD, will not contemplate its installation.

I agree that Dampchasers are probably limited in their ability to control humidity. The pianos I see still change in pitch, and customers always forget to keep the tank filled. There is no substitute for controlling the ambient humidity.

I agree that if not full climate control in room, it makes difficult to keep all piano in optimal conditions.

But,partially, There are some very simple and some more complicate ways of humidity control in piano.

The simpliest and oldest is putting water tanks either in uprigt or near it, or under Grand.This method I think has both good and bad sides. The good is that water tank 1 to 3 liters dry out quiet a long time and there is not trouble that customer ,if forgot to fill, in mid of heating season occures dry and instrument has more problems,than without.The bad side is that to close to uprights strings it leads to rusting. Also pinblock with years may have problems.But these systems do not make any profit to technician.And seems too archaic to many technicians.

Another kind of humidifiers are those filled with hygroscopic material. They also work for local area, but are quiet welcome for uprights in pinblock zone.

Third type is device like Dampp-Chaser. Of course it must take time in many years to find it's pluses and minuses. I also have doubts in the locality of the effect,so I'm still going around it But this is most profitable item for making money.Plus-minus 100$ You are not able to make profit from hygroscopic device or inserting water tanks.

One thing is common to all types: warm air circulation is ascending, so this fact makes narrow application of each of them.

The most problematic thing is to keep in good condition great grands.

In grands, moisture moves throgh whole wooden mass starting from open pores to resoning board and pinblock. In that case,effect will be most stable.If to choose, which way of application to use , one should follow idea,that more important is to keep instrument in enough moisture, that avoids quick loosing of tuning and resonator from cracks and loosing belly.If to say roughly, it is less damage for whole piano if there appears some micro rust,than whole wooden construction dries and cracks. The guarantee terms for strings is approximately 15-20 years.

Let me sound a different tone about Damp-Chaser. I had mine the first day my little beloved grand moved into my living room. I could not be happier since. My piano holds the pitch so good that I only need to have it tuned once a year. I know, I know, normally once a years is kind of less than the widely accepted minimum. Honestly, that's all I need. I do have sentitive ears to the pitch. All I'm saying is for.. well, just to tip the balance a bit.

I think I'd rather have two or three tunings a year, and have less concern about what possible damage the Dampp-Chaser might be causing to my piano over the long run. Furthermore, I enjoy my tuner/tech's visits.

If so, wondering what the current thoughts are regarding using a dehumidifier or not? My Yamaha C3X silent is on order, and I want to make sure it has the best possible care, as humidity during summer is quite high here

The humidity here can get to over 90% in summer (Queensland Australia), and quite low in winter (well under 40%)I have an air conditioner but don't run it during the night, or when I am out.

the following post is what has be wondering as to the use of Dampp Chaser is a worthwhile investment or not.

Originally Posted By: BruceD

Beth and Andrew:

Given that the humidity affecting a grand piano - any piano for that matter - is that of the room in which the piano is located, and given that it is virtually impossible to create a micro-climate under the (open) underside of a grand piano, all the Dampp-Chaser is doing when dehumidifying is creating two (or three, depending on piano size) strips of heated air immediately adjacent to the sound board, but only in those areas where the strips are located. The rest of the sound-board is subject to the ambient temperature and humidity of the air circulating within the room. The temperature of the room could be considerably lower than that of the air next to the heater bars under the piano. I would argue - I do argue! - that you are doing more harm than good to a piano to have two (or three) narrow strips of the sound board heated to a higher temperature than the rest of the sound board.

It seems to me that humidification would be similarly narrowly localized, although I think the effect on the piano might - I say might - be less damaging.

On an upright, however, although the interior is not hermetically sealed from the ambient room humidity and temperature, there should be a better chance of a Dampp-Chaser creating a somewhat uniform microclimate inside the piano, just by the nature of its being an enclosed structure.

Now, ask me why Dampp-Chaser has been such a successfully marketed product and why so many individuals and institutions use it for thousands of pianos, I will simply have to say I don't know. It defies any elementary logic that I can devise. It makes more sense to me to work on ways of controlling room temperature and humidity than to try to control the humidity and tempoerature under a grand piano. However, I'm not known for the brilliance of my intellect, and I'm willing to be convinced, if I can be convinced, of the efficacy of such a system for a grand piano. Others more informed than I have argued this question on this forum at other times, and I remain unconvinced by their logic. Does any one else care to enlighten my dim-witted stance?

The humidity here can get to over 90% in summer (Queensland Australia), and quite low in winter (well under 40%)I have an air conditioner but don't run it during the night, or when I am out.

the following post is what has be wondering as to the use of Dampp Chaser is a worthwhile investment or not.

Originally Posted By: BruceD

Beth and Andrew:

Given that the humidity affecting a grand piano - any piano for that matter - is that of the room in which the piano is located, and given that it is virtually impossible to create a micro-climate under the (open) underside of a grand piano, all the Dampp-Chaser is doing when dehumidifying is creating two (or three, depending on piano size) strips of heated air immediately adjacent to the sound board, but only in those areas where the strips are located. The rest of the sound-board is subject to the ambient temperature and humidity of the air circulating within the room. The temperature of the room could be considerably lower than that of the air next to the heater bars under the piano. I would argue - I do argue! - that you are doing more harm than good to a piano to have two (or three) narrow strips of the sound board heated to a higher temperature than the rest of the sound board.

It seems to me that humidification would be similarly narrowly localized, although I think the effect on the piano might - I say might - be less damaging.

On an upright, however, although the interior is not hermetically sealed from the ambient room humidity and temperature, there should be a better chance of a Dampp-Chaser creating a somewhat uniform microclimate inside the piano, just by the nature of its being an enclosed structure.

Now, ask me why Dampp-Chaser has been such a successfully marketed product and why so many individuals and institutions use it for thousands of pianos, I will simply have to say I don't know. It defies any elementary logic that I can devise. It makes more sense to me to work on ways of controlling room temperature and humidity than to try to control the humidity and tempoerature under a grand piano. However, I'm not known for the brilliance of my intellect, and I'm willing to be convinced, if I can be convinced, of the efficacy of such a system for a grand piano. Others more informed than I have argued this question on this forum at other times, and I remain unconvinced by their logic. Does any one else care to enlighten my dim-witted stance?

Cheerfully ignorant regards,

In spite of claims made by BruceD above, I have empirical evidence that the the Dampp Chaser produces a very stable micro-climate for my grand piano, both below and, more especially, above. I live in Southwestern Ontario where the humidity varies just as yours. The house air conditioning keeps the RH in the 40-60% range, and the Dampp Chaser keeps the upper surface of the sound board at 45%, +\-3%. Without a whole house conditioning system, the variation at the piano would be greater, but still better than no Dampp Chaser.

Some technicians have posited that the constant cycling of the heating rods causes cellular damage in the areas of the soundboard that are proximal to the heating rods. No statistical evidence has been presented however. Considering that the Dampp Chaser system has been around for decades, there should be some empirical evidence of premature sound board failure.

There is also concern that the humidifier system causes localized swelling of the sound board. Again, no evidence has been presented.

The humidity here can get to over 90% in summer (Queensland Australia), and quite low in winter (well under 40%)I have an air conditioner but don't run it during the night, or when I am out.

the following post is what has be wondering as to the use of Dampp Chaser is a worthwhile investment or not.

Originally Posted By: BruceD

Beth and Andrew:

Given that the humidity affecting a grand piano - any piano for that matter - is that of the room in which the piano is located, and given that it is virtually impossible to create a micro-climate under the (open) underside of a grand piano, all the Dampp-Chaser is doing when dehumidifying is creating two (or three, depending on piano size) strips of heated air immediately adjacent to the sound board, but only in those areas where the strips are located. The rest of the sound-board is subject to the ambient temperature and humidity of the air circulating within the room. The temperature of the room could be considerably lower than that of the air next to the heater bars under the piano. I would argue - I do argue! - that you are doing more harm than good to a piano to have two (or three) narrow strips of the sound board heated to a higher temperature than the rest of the sound board.

It seems to me that humidification would be similarly narrowly localized, although I think the effect on the piano might - I say might - be less damaging.

On an upright, however, although the interior is not hermetically sealed from the ambient room humidity and temperature, there should be a better chance of a Dampp-Chaser creating a somewhat uniform microclimate inside the piano, just by the nature of its being an enclosed structure.

Now, ask me why Dampp-Chaser has been such a successfully marketed product and why so many individuals and institutions use it for thousands of pianos, I will simply have to say I don't know. It defies any elementary logic that I can devise. It makes more sense to me to work on ways of controlling room temperature and humidity than to try to control the humidity and tempoerature under a grand piano. However, I'm not known for the brilliance of my intellect, and I'm willing to be convinced, if I can be convinced, of the efficacy of such a system for a grand piano. Others more informed than I have argued this question on this forum at other times, and I remain unconvinced by their logic. Does any one else care to enlighten my dim-witted stance?

Cheerfully ignorant regards,

In spite of claims made by BruceD above, I have empirical evidence that the the Dampp Chaser produces a very stable micro-climate for my grand piano, both below and, more especially, above. I live in Southwestern Ontario where the humidity varies just as yours. The house air conditioning keeps the RH in the 40-60% range, and the Dampp Chaser keeps the upper surface of the sound board at 45%, +\-3%. Without a whole house conditioning system, the variation at the piano would be greater, but still better than no Dampp Chaser.

Some technicians have posited that the constant cycling of the heating rods causes cellular damage in the areas of the soundboard that are proximal to the heating rods. No statistical evidence has been presented however. Considering that the Dampp Chaser system has been around for decades, there should be some empirical evidence of premature sound board failure.

There is also concern that the humidifier system causes localized swelling of the sound board. Again, no evidence has been presented.

It would be interesting to see if these claims have credence.

There's a possible risk in quoting very old posts. You do realize, I hope, that the quote from me was written almost 14 years ago, and that there is a caveat at the end of the post. I may have learned a few things in the interim. The information I posted was supplied to me by a technician - obviously not a Dampp-Chaser fan. That was given to me in 2000, even before that post was made!

There were some - perhaps as benighted as I - who agreed with me at the time, as you may have noticed. Did I mention that that was almost 14 years ago?

Please accept my apologies for possibly impugning your reputation. It was not my intention. I knew that the thread was old, but did not realize the possible consequences of commenting on essentially stale data.

I am not a fan of the humidifier part of the DampChaser system. It produces a localized humidity effect on the part of the soundboard nearest the tank. It does not move humidity evenly across the bottom of a grand soundboard. You can see this by carefully observing pianos where the tank has been operating for a couple of days. Look at the surface of the bottom of the soundboard along the panel joints. The areas nearest the tank will show ridges or valleys depending on grain angle there are not along the same joint-farthest away from the tank.

Wood takes on humidity about five times as fast as it gives it up. So that stacks the deck against getting an even micro-clime of higher humidity across the soundboard.

The de-humidifier system I find very useful. I install the heater rods along the sides of the beams near to the soundboard. This gets the dry air above the edge of the case and creates a little micro-clime that spreads across the entire underside of the soundboard.

I use the 50watt rods and try to put at least two if they will fit in any grand.

I charge about $250 installed depending on travel distance of course.

_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

I don't install the fabric undercover. The construction and installation of it is at best mediocre. It looks like crap!

_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

Read the section I've linked to above about equilibrium moisture content (EMC), and the section directly below it that says wood in service (i.e. finished products) retains the same qualities. It says that "the EMC of wood varies with the ambient relative humidity...significantly, to a lesser degree with the temperature." The relative humidity in the room is key. Humidity "aimed" at the piano will quickly diffuse into the room around it. If the application of humidity is close enough, and constant enough, the affected area may react like Ed described above, but that's only because it "hits" its target before it dissipates. And that's worse--too high in one spot and too low in the others! Because not too far away is wood that isn't receiving the densely moisturized air. I suspect that a system correctly installed ought not be close enough to do damage, but, in either case, the vast majority of the moisture diffuses into the surrounding space. Even the moisture that does end up in the piano will be wicked back out again unless the entire room's relative humidity level increases to match the piano's. So, to the extent that they "work," it's because they raise the RH in the larger space. I know you can get a cover to help with this phenomenon, and that's why the cover helps, but the piano still is not air tight. If you increase the moisture content of the sound board from below, the moisture is going to move to and through the top, into the ambient space (until it reaches EMC).

Think about a space heater that can keep a room warm. Then take the same heater outside and it won't work as well--the heat quickly dissipates into the colder air. It's the same with humidity. And the only thing that can keep humidity "locked in" is an airtight space. No piano is air tight.

I'm skeptical of the heating application to reduce humidity too. Wood is a lousy thermal conductor. So, a part of the wood is "warmed," and the rest remains unchanged. So a little bit of wood has it's EMC adjusted, but not the whole sound board. Again, not good (imo). I would think the only thing worse than humidity fluctuations would be if the entirety of the piano is not subject to them equally. Part going up. Part going down.

A whole-house solution is best (IMO).

People's opinions on this may change over time, but the laws of nature do not...