kirtu wrote:Sakya people can be kinds of Luddites actually. Someone will probably get back to you shortly. In the Sakya tradition, pretty much only the high lamas would give an empowerment like Vajrayogini. Right now almost all the Sakya high lamas are in Asia or the US and Canada. You could see if Dechen UK has anything scheduled or if anything is scheduled in the Sakya center in Amsterdam or in Lugano in Switzerland.

rob h wrote: in what ways could I work with Vajrayogini without an empowerment? Rob

You can do prostrations to her, make offerings to her, and pray to her, etc. Make aspirations for your connection to grow and for the opportunity to get her empowerment to arise.

rob h wrote:And are there any people throughout history that are known to have been inspired by, or to have worked with Vajrayogini, without being a Tibetan Buddhist/having had an empowerment to do her rituals?. . . Final question : do you think that someone with the right state of mind can work with Vajrayogini on a decent enough level without an empowerment? Or do you think it's impossible? Personally I think it's possible, (not for me right now though! I don't think my mind is anywhere near the right state.) but I'm wondering what some of you think.

There may have been people who have worked with her without empowerment, but we can't really speak for their results. Any known practitioners who worked with a yidam and actually manifested siddhi would have definitely had the empowerment. However, highly advanced practitioners (i.e. mahasiddhas) can receive empowerment directly from the deity, rather than a human guru. That's how yidam practices originate. Now, if you lack the capacity at the moment to receive empowerment directly from VY herself, the most efficient course of action would be to get her empowerment from a human guru whose lineage and samaya are intact.

If I were you, I would set up a Vajrayogini shrine, do some prostrations, prayers, and offerings daily as I mentioned above, and see what happens. . . continue to search for her empowerment until you find a lama/lineage that feels right, and of course research them to be aware of any controversies. Also, I should add, before taking the empowerment, make sure you are fully ready to take refuge, bodhisattva and tantric vows, and you understand what they entail.

rob h wrote: I mean if Vajrayogini herself wanted to work with someone, or to inspire them, that's up to her, right?

Rob

Sure. But if you don't want to wait (possibly forever) then go ahead and get the empowerment so you are authorized to do her practice.

rob h wrote: in what ways could I work with Vajrayogini without an empowerment? Rob

You can do prostrations to her, make offerings to her, and pray to her, etc. Make aspirations for your connection to grow and for the opportunity to get her empowerment to arise.

rob h wrote:And are there any people throughout history that are known to have been inspired by, or to have worked with Vajrayogini, without being a Tibetan Buddhist/having had an empowerment to do her rituals?. . . Final question : do you think that someone with the right state of mind can work with Vajrayogini on a decent enough level without an empowerment? Or do you think it's impossible? Personally I think it's possible, (not for me right now though! I don't think my mind is anywhere near the right state.) but I'm wondering what some of you think.

There may have been people who have worked with her without empowerment, but we can't really speak for their results. Any known practitioners who worked with a yidam and actually manifested siddhi would have definitely had the empowerment. However, highly advanced practitioners (i.e. mahasiddhas) can receive empowerment directly from the deity, rather than a human guru. That's how yidam practices originate. Now, if you lack the capacity at the moment to receive empowerment directly from VY herself, the most efficient course of action would be to get her empowerment from a human guru whose lineage and samaya are intact.

If I were you, I would set up a Vajrayogini shrine, do some prostrations, prayers, and offerings daily as I mentioned above, and see what happens. . . continue to search for her empowerment until you find a lama/lineage that feels right, and of course research them to be aware of any controversies. Also, I should add, before taking the empowerment, make sure you are fully ready to take refuge, bodhisattva and tantric vows, and you understand what they entail.

rob h wrote: I mean if Vajrayogini herself wanted to work with someone, or to inspire them, that's up to her, right?

Rob

Sure. But if you don't want to wait (possibly forever) then go ahead and get the empowerment so you are authorized to do her practice.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything but may as well.......I wasn't being very truthful when I said I'd not try anything until seeing a teacher, and kind of jumped right into trying a few things. I'm going to be very careful from here on out though because I think I'm managing to get in touch with her energies a bit and she's obviously really powerful..... I think she was toying with me a bit today as well when I was in the city center, (not in a negative way.) she also has a good sense of humour, right? It seems that way anyway...

So I started looking up sadhanas, mantras, etc, connected to Vajrayogini, then meditated last night, and I have a thing for just doing things spontaneously that are kind of connected to what I've read. So I tried doing normal Zen-related meditation, but I couldn't get Vajrayogini out of my head. Then I just let go and imagined a form of her in front of me, then her turning into a cloud of red energy, then the energy going into me through my ajna chakra. (I just can never resist trying things like this, I had to!) Then I imagined the BAM syllable on the top of my head, then the base dissolved, the crescent, the circle, the squiggle, then an energy flowed from the top of my head right down through my body and filled it, (rainbow type of light.) and I started spontaneously rocking from side to side (gently.) as I was meditating...

Now in all the years I've meditated I've never had that sensation, and that was when I really had the sense that this stuff is powerful! And wow I felt really balanced after I'd finished the meditation too. I don't know exactly what happened, but from here on out if I do things like that again, it's probably going to be very sparingly. (It's not so much about fear, more based on respect and not wanting to make a mess of things. I want to do this properly and feel a big responsibility to have respect for Tibetan methods, Tibetan Buddhists, and Vajrayogini herself.) Because to jump off into the deep end like that without a teacher just doesn't seem wise. Maybe a few years ago when I was a little crazier, but I not any more I don't think.

But wow, I really feel a strong connection to her. I often imagine her form as my own, or her energy in me, and have done that so often that it feels almost normal now. The thing that actually freaks me out from time to time is that I feel a lot more myself when I imagine her form! (she's often a clothed normal(ish!) female though, which makes me think of Yeshe Tsogyal.) Something just feels to work so properly, and that's why I think it might be important to pursue this and learn the rituals/meditations properly from a Lama. Because if my half random meditation did that to me, the real thing is probably going to be something truly amazing.

I also found two of her mantras too, and have also been trying them. Mantras I'm not so worried about, because I have respect for them and will use them as sparingly as I can. I've been saying the Om Vajrayogini Hum Phat Svaha and that seems like a great mantra if used occasionally, the longer mantra of hers is something I'll maybe say a few times every now and then, but that one I'm very wary of overusing because it seems to have a lot more power to it.

But as for other rituals, I'll just leave them unless I have the good fortune to find a Lama and can be instructed. What I've been doing over the last 24 hours or so seems like easily enough for me to gradually use, and develop a lot more of a genuine connection if I also live my life in as balanced a way as possible, so will just see how things go and bide my time until I find a teacher if I do.

I doubt I'll leave this this time though like I have done in the past, the connection realy feels like it's there now and maybe this is the right thing for me to do after all. Have just got to adapt to how my life is going to change in advance if I can when it comes to taking vows, as that's actually the biggest obstacle, and get a few things in order with my personal life so that's hopefully sorted out. One of the main problems is smoking, but if I meditate enough and put the effort in I can usually reign that in pretty well. I know smoking is not good at all and am really focusing on it now. Drinking not so much of a problem, kind of just seems boring now most of the time, and knocks me right out of balance with meditating for about 48 hours after, so that's not something that I'm really into any more.

Thanks again to everyone for the help though, I kind of thought of taking vows and getting a teacher as a bit of a fantasy in the past when it came down to it, but it feels a lot more like something I really want to do now, will hopefully let you know how things turn out.

First of all, I think if you are really serious about practicing with a yidam you should do yourself a favor and educate yourself about Vajrayana and the Buddhist path in general, because what your describing is pretty far off from what the practices in the Vajrayana are all about. I also think that it might be helpful to tone down your expectations a little bit. Getting an empowerment and working with deities is an incredible blessing, but if you are expecting to have your socks knocked off and your world rocked and start talking with the deity and whatever else I think you may be in for a bit of a dissapointment. Deity practice is profound, for sure, but you need to be grounded if you want your practice to go anywhere. I think you may also have the wrong idea about samaya and practice commitments. No one is going to make you take a vow to stop smoking and drinking if you get an empowerment. Again, educate yourself on these things. And I think many people here are going to tell you that looking up mantras and practices like this on the internet will lead you nowhere. You need a transmission. That transmission must be connected with a teacher and lineage. There is no way around this. Get a teacher. Get the empowermnet. You'll be glad you did.

CrawfordHollow wrote:First of all, I think if you are really serious about practicing with a yidam you should do yourself a favor and educate yourself about Vajrayana and the Buddhist path in general, because what your describing is pretty far off from what the practices in the Vajrayana are all about. I also think that it might be helpful to tone down your expectations a little bit. Getting an empowerment and working with deities is an incredible blessing, but if you are expecting to have your socks knocked off and your world rocked and start talking with the deity and whatever else I think you may be in for a bit of a dissapointment. Deity practice is profound, for sure, but you need to be grounded if you want your practice to go anywhere. I think you may also have the wrong idea about samaya and practice commitments. No one is going to make you take a vow to stop smoking and drinking if you get an empowerment. Again, educate yourself on these things. And I think many people here are going to tell you that looking up mantras and practices like this on the internet will lead you nowhere. You need a transmission. That transmission must be connected with a teacher and lineage. There is no way around this. Get a teacher. Get the empowermnet. You'll be glad you did.

All the best,Troy

Ah yep, agreed with practices part! I know what I did was nothing like a real Tibetan ritual, I was just amazed at the feelings I had when trying it. And I'm not fantasizing about talking to her, having my world rocked, etc, either. What I'm actually aiming for is a clearer understanding of and connection to how things really are, and then to be able to help others more if I can manage that. That's always been the real goal.

As for mantras, etc, I think faith plays a big part sometimes and that they can work, but I totally get that that might not be something many will agree on so won't push my views on that either. As for smoking and drinking, I just really want to cut them out, they've just become more of a hindrance for the most part as far as I see it and not wise in the long run at all.

Just found a great pic of Yeshe Tsogyal (I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be her anyway.) too, had to share it :

Have had a response from them already. They said there's people there who practice Vajrayogini and that after the summer break they'll get back to me, so it might not be that far off after all. Thanks loads for the link, really appreciated!

Yeshe Tsogyal is said to be an emanation of Saraswati, Tara & Vajrayogini in different texts. She completed the work of Shakyamuni Buddha & Padmasambhava & placed most Dzogchen Terma of his in physical & other dimensions in Tibet & Himalayas over many decades for numerous future generations. Dudjoms' Terma have practices of her forms. You can get those empowerments in India, Nepal or Bhutan as the lamas see fit. Until then yes there are obstacles, just as for everyone else. It is best to exercise discipline because auspicious circumstances can be ruined on approach so as I said patience. Meantime it is best to study Dzogchen texts which is the essence of all the universal teachings of the Buddhas including hers, if you stay interested in her in the long run that is. Take it easy & good luck.

Everyone here has given you good advice, pray to her to remove obstacles, seek initiation but don't do any practices. Now depending on which lineage will initiate you (Sakya or Gelugpa) I can say that the Sakya's have the requirement that you must have samaya and either Chakrasamvara or Hevajra initiation. These are serious practices for serious practitioners. Most Sakya's give Vajrayogini with retreat requirements as well. I reccomend that you read books about Tibetan Buddhism, basic stuff, not Tantric esoteric teaching which require instruction and see if this is what you really want. Once you are initiated you will most likely be given vows and practice requirements (Sakya's are pretty strict about Vajrayogini) and to break requirements isn't good. Again this is a serious practice and you should have an understanding of boddhicitta, shunyata etc before attempting. And as someone else said, don't set yourself up with delusions, as you very well might be dissapointed...you never know. What you should probably do is pray first to find a guru and once you two form a connection he will advise you on the best course of action. hope this helps!

In the Gelug tradition most lamas insist that before you take the initiation of Vajrayogini you have the initiation of Yamantaka, Guyhyasamaja or Heruka Chakrasamvara as a pre-requisite. Chakrasamvara is considered ideal as it is within its root tantra that the Vajrayogini practice is contained. However, any of these three will do. Kalachakra is considered by some lamas to be a suitable pre-requisite and by others not. I am uncertain as to the reason for this.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

I received a Vajrayogini empowerment from a Drikung Kagyu lama and there were no requirements for prior Chakrasamvara etc. The Drikung lineage is very beautiful, and while they only have one outpost in the UK, there are quite a few in Europe and a short Channel hop for the empowerment you need isn't that much. You might also try contacting Jnanasukha - Lama Yeshe Wangmo is very friendly and approachable and she might be able to direct you to a way to practice Yeshe Tsogyal (who is Vajrayogini).

By the way, I recognize a lot of myself in what you describe. I felt an urgent need, an infatuation, almost. Intense, visual meditations, including rocking. Compulsion to check out images. It all smoothed out very quickly - immediately, in fact - after I'd received empowerment. That is, her intensity became transmuted into something else: the gateway, essentially, for a far deeper level of practice that is less superficially thrilling but much, much more real. Having said that, practicing her sadhana with the proper permission will bring you a level of connectedness your present experiences only hint at.

Meanwhile, I would advise laying off the fireworks. You obviously have a connection, so don't overcomplicate things. There's a big risk, as I discovered, of falling into self-indulgence and tapping into your inner world for reasons that, though they seem spiritual, are basically entertainment. Concentrate on bringing emptiness into your meditation - it's the essence of Vajrayogini. If you like saying mantras, stick with om mani padme hum or Green Tara, perhaps, which you don't need any empowerment for. Dedicate your merit and you'll be benefitting all beings while tuning yourself in. Try to see all female beings as Vajrayogini. And I absolutely agree with investigating the Dzogchen teachings.

Re Drikung Vajrayogini--chances are pretty good this is actually related to Dorje Phagmo, the "Vajrayogini" form practiced by Kagyupas of various schools. It comes from Chakrasamvara Tantras as well, but most Kagyu transmissions don't require a full "Chakrasamvara" or other major empowerment previously. This is a contentious issue amongst the various lineages, actually. In any case, we should be aware that there are a variety of forms, throughout the Tibetan lineages.

It sounds to me like the original poster is attracted to Naro Khachoma form, which started with the Sakyapas, and entered the Geluk lineage somewhat more recently.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Ok, finally back to explain why I've decided to go it alone for the time being. I couldn't explain very well before and still can't do it perfectly now, but things have started making sense so will try. This post is quite long, so sorry in advance, and I'll fix any typo's, etc as I read through it a few more times.

I've been going through a pretty rough few years and things have just started to get a bit better, but I still don't feel ready to join a Tibetan school yet as I'm not totally sure it's what I want to do. Maybe in the future, but I'm going to give it at least a year for now.

As for Vajrayogini, well I'm working with some aspect now that I think is becoming more aligned with who she is, and as this is happening it's becoming clearer why it's often not safe for the uninitiated to be trying to work with her! I know you have your own versions of Vajrayogini, and she's probably a lot different than the one I'm currently trying to work with, (or maybe she'll eventually become the same thing.) but the main thing is that my whole way of meditating seems to have been transformed over the last month or so into something a lot better than it ever has been, so the way I see it : if it's working and doesn't seem broken, don't try to fix it.

Basically I'm working with her occasionaly, and most of the other time I'm using the Anapanasati meditations from Theravada, or just using meditating in a manner that's probably closer to Shikantaza than anything else. This is also to get a solid grounding in basic meditation so that it's easier to work with her when I do. When it comes to the whole system though it's not easy to explain, and will clearly seem overcomplicated, but the way it works is anything but that. It's basically memorizing sets and methods, then when I practise most of that sinks back into the unconscious and over time the sets I've been working with seem to help, in the type of way that a martial artist would seemingly apply their skill without "thinking" about it when they do. You just use the skills you've learnt and don't have them cramming up your head as you're constantly thinking about them, etc.

So to help explain (I'm doing this mainly for anyone interested in how I'm going to manage to work with Vajrayogini basically.) I have these sets that cover just about everything I need when I'm not working with her :

I don't sit there trying to learn these or think about them all the time. The opposite basically. I try to meditate on how things actually are, but if I feel I need to learn some more or something seems off, I refer back to them and meditate on whichever one seems best at the time.

As for sutras, again I don't use them that much, but if I feel I need to go over them again, I'm using the Lankavatara, Diamond Cutter, Anapanasati, Frames of Reference and Great Frames of Reference, and even though it's not a sutra I find the Xinxin Ming a great help too. Two sutras I'm hoping to look at in the near future are the Sandhinirmocana and Mulamadhyamakakarika, but again, sutras aren't usually the main focus and it's the sets that I listed that are used for meditating, if I'm not meditating in a fashion similar to Shikantaza.

Then there's the aspect where I work with Vajrayogini. (So I have a Zen/Theravada/Vajrayogini synergy.) It's basically like the methods already listed are all helping to ground me and prepare to work with the more primordial aspect of my "self" that's one with her, but clearly that's something very powerful to just be accessing so I'm taking my time. For now I'm sticking to this :

- I do sitting meditation with her once a week and simply visualize her,- Use a BAM seed syllable pendant I recently got that I take out with me every so often, and when I do I try to keep a female aspect of her in my mind, but that part isn't something that I can easily explain. It's like a visualisation meditation, but it's something else related to my own "personality" merging with part of hers on a subtle level and it helps bring confidence and concentration in whatever I'm doing if it's done properly.- Visualisations of the BAM syllable on various parts of my body, spontaneously.- Using her mantras, but only once a month and only a short amount of them. Mantras are what I work with the least. The way I see it, they're powerful, short, and don't need to be done often.

But mostly it's spontaneous. I can just be doing something and I'll decide to visualize her as myself in a type of human form, and a lot of confidence and concentration is present, and a way of looking at things, or perceiving things, that I can't really explain. This is clearly not the way you work with her, I know that! But with the research and meditation I've done over the years, and some research and practise that used to be occult related, along with various visualisations and some ritual, I feel like I can develop my own way of working with her, with her help.

There's also a dakini-type aspect or two that seem to either be inspired by her or are just unrelated, but I do feel like there's some input from Vajrayogini with them. The only trouble is they're not easy to explain. They vary from calm and focused to being wild and chaotic, but it's too personal to go into really so will leave that part...

I wouldn't have posted here today either, but earlier it was like she spoke to me, or communicated with me. Or it was that the aspect of myself that relates to her, my inner Vajrayogini, or primordial aspect of her, decided to say a few things. She basically sent the perceptions and/or spoke, telling and showing me that I can work with her, but I'm still not ready to work with her all the time. That she can help me, but if I screw it up she's going to put me through hell basically, not in the literal sense I don't think, but basically that if I think I can work with her in a half arsed way or just slog along being lazy, she's going to make me pay for it. That's totally cool because I need that discipline, the thought of her really helps me focus and often inspires me in other ways. You could say I'd be better off with my own teacher, but to me, the meditation I'm doing and the way I work with her are my teachers. I learn things every day if I do it properly.

The way I work with her doesn't involve much speaking at all though. She's more of a state of mind that helps me meditate in a much better way, and rarely does anything in my mind (or from what I think of as her.) speak like she did earlier. There's also the fact that I'm trying to do this alone and that's why I'm have to meditate several times a day now. Be it walking, sitting, doing whatever I'm doing, but the days of sitting for 10 minutes then leaving the meditation mindset behind and going straight back to being the usual jerk I've often been have gone. I can't afford to do that anymore and have to put a lot of effort in, and she's basically helped me realise that over the last few weeks. I can still have fun, but the discipline has been upped a lot.

Anyway, sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but there's so many aspects of the way the different meditations and the visualisations click with eachother and the bits of intuition they give that I could probably write for several more hours, but I'll leave it here! Basically it might all seem chaotic and over the top, something that can be simplified drastically, but when I work with parts of it that's what actually happens : it becomes simplified if it works well because my mind seems to spontaneously point to which part(s) need to be focused on if they're out of balance. So when it works properly I just bring what's wrong to mind, find the various meditation that helps correct the balance, then go back to the awareness. Or you could say the awareness stays constant and perceptions of something slightly off flash into the mind, then they kind of correct themselves as the awareness realises it.

Will let you know how things have gone with this if my work with her has any hugely great things happening, but to be honest I just think it's going to be something that'll take some time and requires patience. Some days will suck, some won't, but the important thing is to keep meditating! Then hope that overall it continues to get better like it has done over the recent weeks.

Mr. G wrote:I think you should get the empowerment when you have the opportunity and you won't have to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not trying to reinvent anything! Everything is already good as it is and it seems to work well. The hard work was the recent years when I was learning how to meditate in various ways or on various things I listed, but now it's usually just down to awareness and staying free of attachments.

I'm sure most of you could list all the mantras, mudras, rituals and methods you use and I'd think it was complicated too. But when things work properly all the lists and methods are training to help a single focus, or way of doing things, that's actually pretty simple and spontaneous. Don't get me wrong I had a hard time researching and learning various things over the years, but now it seems simple and often like second nature.

Just to say a last few things to try and clear up where I'm coming from :

I don't like picking one school and think they can work alongside eachother perfectly well, if it's done in certain ways. The thing is though as much as I like working with Vajrayogini, the current foundation of my meditation is in the Anapanasati Sutra and Zen. So if I took vows and joined a Tibetan school I just wouldn't feel like I was doing it for the right reasons and it doesn't seem respectful or the best way to go about my own path right now.

Basically the Anapanasati, or Mindfulness of Breathing, is something that has a structure to it, is simple to use, but works brilliantly if enough effort is put into it. Then if I want to switch for a while and let go of that whole structure I just use my awareness, like Shikantaza the way I see it. When it comes to Vajrayogini I feel like she's a teacher who can help me cut through obstacles and kind of work in an energy or perception based way. It's very direct in a way that the others aren't. It's hard with her because I don't feel like I can describe it properly at all, but I don't seem to lack inspiration, energy, discipline, focus or confidence with her, and that used to be a massive problem.

It's like a triune system that I feel perfectly happy with right now and that really seems to work, so the idea of altering it any way just doesn't seem right. The thing is I want to wake up properly at some point, not just meditate and get gradually better and feel like I did ok at some point in the future. I want to wake up. And I think I need someone like Vajrayogini to help me with that properly, to give that inspiration, energy, discipline, focus and confidence, and also that change in perception that seems to be there when she is. If I knew this was going to click I'd have never made the thread, but it's only happened pretty recently.

But either way I don't think I have it all sussed, far from it. Just that it seems to work prefectly fine for now and I'm really loathe to alter something that finally seems balanced. Now just to see if it lasts. If it doesn't though, you'll maybe see this thread bumped next year as I'm starting my ngondro.

You will find though in the Vajrayogini chapter of the Chakrasamvara tantra itself, the importance of the spiritual teacher is mentioned. These types of practices pass from master to master in an unbroken lineage, which is how the tantric tradition has been passed on. You will find this holds for the other tantras too.Because this practice has been passed down this way from the very beginning, you should strongly consider receiving proper initiation and instructions into it. It is wonderful that you have powerful imprints for the practice. But even the Dalai Lamas, Karmapas, Sakya Trizins etc. need to take the initiations again each lifetime. If such elevated beings need to at least go through the motions, what does that say for ordinary people like us?Often (but not always) there are good reasons that a thing is done a certain way. Out of your regard for Vajrayogini and Her practice, it would be wise to seek the necessary transmissions. I don't think receiving the initiation would mean you would have to abandon your other practices or teachers.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin