Respected Syedna, we are all disappointed by your views on female circumcision

Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin’s recent wa’az (sermon) in Mumbai has come as a disappointment. For almost three months now, Dawoodi Bohras who wish to see an end to female circumcision (khatna) had been hopeful. Starting with Sydney in February, many Bohra jamaats in different cities around the world have issued letters to their members, asking them to stop practicing khatna because it is against the law in those countries. (Read more about the jamaat letters here.)

The jamaats issuing these letters – be it in Australia, USA, UK or Sweden – are all trusts that function with the sanction of the central Bohra leadership, whose headquarters are at Badri Mahal in Mumbai. The jamaat letters gave hope to Bohras across the world, even in countries like India and Pakistan where there are no laws against female genital cutting, that the Bohra leadership would eventually ask the whole community to stop practicing khatna.

After all, in a community that is so close-knit and centralised, why should girls in some parts of the world be spared from circumcision, while girls in other countries continue to be cut? If Dawoodi Bohras are one community, how can there be different rules based on geography?

In this light, the Syedna’s recent public sermon on April 25 has left large sections of Bohras surprised and disheartened. His speech, given at Mumbai’s Saifee Masjid on the occasion of the death anniversary of 51st Syedna Taher Saifuddin, made an indirect but fairly clear reference to khatna.

A four-minute audio clip of that section of the sermon has been circulating among Bohra social media groups all week, and several concerned community members wrote to Sahiyo to tell us that they had attended the wa’az and were shocked by the Syedna’s statements. On April 29, The Times of India wrote a report about these statements, which can be read here.

In the sermon, delivered in the Lisan-ul-Dawat language, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin can be heard saying the following:

“Whatever the world says, we should be strong and firm…whatever they say, it does not make a difference to us, we are not willing to accept [what they say]…we are not willing to talk to them. What are they telling us? That what we are doing is wrong?…who are they to teach us?”

The Syedna then makes a reference to other vices that people have, such as drugs or cigarettes, asking, “Why don’t they tell those people [that they are wrong]?”

A clearer reference to khatna comes with the following words in the speech:

“It must be done. If it is a man, it can be done openly and if it is a woman it must be discreet. But the act must be done. Do you understand what I am saying? Let people say what they want…but Rasoolullah [Prophet Mohammed] has said it…Rasoolullah will never say anything against humanity. He has only spoken [of] what is beneficial…from the perspective [“haisiyat”] of the body and the soul. What do they say?…that this is harmful? Let them say it, we are not scared of anyone.”

The Syedna’s sermon is significant for many reasons. This is the first time that he has made such a clear reference to khatna in public without explicitly spelling it out. All through the recent Australia case hearings as well as the anti-khatna campaigns by Sahiyo, Speak Out on FGM and other Bohras, the community was eagerly awaiting a word on the subject directly from the Syedna.

But his declaration that Bohras must continue the act, irrespective of opposition from various quarters, indicates that Bohra authorities were not being sincere when they issued various jamaat letters around the world. The implication of his speech is that the jamaat letters asking people to stop khatna are insignificant – a mere formality to save Bohras from facing criminal consequences in countries where female genital cutting is illegal.

Were the jamaat letters a mere pretence to hoodwink international governments? His speech says “the act” must be done openly for men and discretely for women. Why?

The Syedna says that the “the act” must be practiced because the Prophet recommended as something beneficial. But according to the jamaat letters issued with the sanction of the Syedna, the Prophet also preached the value of “hibbul watan minal imam” – love and loyalty for the laws of one’s country. So which teachings of the Prophet must Bohras in those countries follow?

Most significantly, we would like to point out one thing: the Syedna’s speech dismisses and rejects all opposition from “them”, from all those saying that khatna is harmful and must not be practiced. The “they” he is referring to, however, are not just governments of countries like Australia or the USA.

The strongest form of opposition to khatna is now coming from within the community – from Bohra women who have either undergone khatna or have seen their loved ones go through it, and from Bohra men who are horrified that their daughters, sisters, mothers and friends have to go through the cut. These are Bohras of all hues – staunch believers, regular masjid attendees, occasional attendees, sceptics, liberals, traditionalists, reformists – but they are Bohras, and they no longer want the practice of khatna to continue. By alienating these women and men as “they”, as outsiders, the opposition cannot be wished away.Those opposed to the practice have strong reasons for their views, and we urge the Syedna and all Bohras to engage in meaningful debates and discussions on the issue, rather than trying to shut out opposition.

Lastly, the Times of India report quotes a source close to the Bohra authorities, claiming that this speech was not about khatna and has been misinterpreted. However, hundreds of Bohras have interpreted his speech as a reference to khatna and circulated the audio clip widely. If the leadership believes that all of these people misinterpreted the speech, we urge the Syedna to publicly clarify this, and make his stance on khatna clear.

104 thoughts on “Respected Syedna, we are all disappointed by your views on female circumcision”

ask this foolish 7th fail bohra leader to get castrated first, he lives a lavish luxurios life and then in public sermons dictates impossible things to normal people. If god exists this man will have his fate.

Continuous struggle is the only way to alter mindsets and shake up practices that are against the personal safety, individual dignity and human rights of women and also the laws of our times.

Appealing to the good sense and conscience of community elders is important. However, since they legitimize what they do in the name of Islam and the Holy Prophet (sa), the larger battle is to be waged at a different level.The traditions and teachings of Prophet Muhammad (sa) on the issue need to be explored and contextualized and unveiled to the public at large- for the understanding of all devout believers so that change can creep in.

Being a doctor myself First and for most there is a vast difference between female genital mutilation and female circumcision. circumcision is a surgical procedure ,in medical terms called as clitoral unhooding which does nothing but benefits a woman,and according to shariah this is what khafz is in its real sense.
So would like to add here that next time ….
1.don’t try to write things of which you don’t even have half the knowledge.
2.since u.’ll have quoted respected Dr.syedna muffaddal saifuddin aqa (t.u.s) with exact wordings please learn something from it that instead of wasting ur time on writing such half baked, not at all well researched n baseless articles look into bigger issues of drugs ,alcoholism,adultery,which affect mumineen in a much bigger way.
3.and debates are not our thing to do, for we only choose to say labbaik Ya daiallah.

Dr Kagalwala, with due respect, we would like to ask you: what medical benefits does circumcision have for women? We have, in fact, researched this, and have come across no known medical benefits.
You must be aware of this already, but we’d like to quote from a paper that was published in the British Medical Journal in 1999 and tell you a little bit about the prepuce that is sliced off during circumcision (http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/).

“The prepuce is an integral, normal part of the external genitalia that forms the anatomical covering of the glans penis and clitoris. The outer epithelium has the protective function of internalising the glans (clitoris and penis), urethral meatus (in the male) and the inner preputial epithelium, thus decreasing external irritation or contamination.”

As far as the woman’s clitoral hood or prepuce is concerned, it plays a role in a woman’s sexual functioning: “The prepuce is a specialized tissue which marks the boundary between mucosa and skin; it is similar to the eyelids, labia minora, anus and lips. The unique innervation of the prepuce establishes its function as an erogenous tissue.”

As the entire area around the clitoris, including the “hood”, is richly innervated with receptors, the receptors allow sensory information, like touching and stroking, to be received by the brain and translated into pleasurable sensation that results in an orgasm. Therefore, by removing the “hood” one could be overexposing the clitoris to undue, undesirable abrasion or overstimulation. The prepuce also plays a protective role.

Yes, clitoral unhooding is a procedure done by doctors in the West, but there is a huge difference: unhooding is something adult, sexually active women may CHOOSE to opt for, with medical advice, IF they happen to have excess prepuce tissue or a small clitoral glans, which MAY prevent them from properly having an orgasm. Khafz, on the other hand, is carried out on little girls completely without their consent, at an age when they cannot in any way give informed consent, and when there is no way of knowing whether the child happens to have excessive prepuce tissue or a small glans that could, at some point in the future, impact her sexual life. Khafz is forcibly carried out on ALL girls, even the majority who may have absolutely normal hoods, which could have adverse effects on their sexual lives later. And based on the real stories we’ve heard from many Bohra women, this does happen.

These are the reasons why khafz – female circumcision – is recognized as a form of female genital mutilation by the World Health Organisation. It is in the interest of scientific temper, and of little innocent girls, that all of us DO debate this issue.

I think the issue here is the manner in which khatna or circumcision is carried out in females. If it is done surgically by a qualified doctor then there would be no complaints. From all that I have read in sahiyo the main issue seems to be trauma it creates in the mind of the young child.But if done surgically, like in males, then half the problem is solve.
Refer to an article written by Sri Lankan journalists Asif Husen and you shall get answers to most of your queries.
I assume your aim is to help woman.

Being a doctor itself you don’t understand the pain a girl goes through at the age of 7 due to this awful act. Since I myself have gone through this it sometimes horrifies me and that pain is something that I will never be able to forget. And being a literate citizen of this country you support this act. And as you said (with respect)”Dr.syedna muffaddal saifuddin aqa (t.u.s) ”
Should focus on more stuff like smoking and drinking during the vaaz instead of such topics which would actually do something good to the society. And lastly I guess after being educated you do have a mind of your own and it is best that people should judge what is right and what is wrong and not just follow something blindly….

@ munira rawat , mufaddal moula is focusing on the other things only . If every educated person would have known what is bad and what is not then where the question arises of the smoking and drinking . There should have been no one doing that act . But there are people . And The circumsion has just being made to be felt that is wrong by some people without any basis. It is the people made him to say what he felt and he has the right to say what he felt and he just said what the duat and imam and prophet have said.

One of the most difficult challenges of working on FGC is when the pain that some people go through can be dismissed by others. Regardless of whether or not you have undergone pain associated to undergoing FGC or khatna yourself, the fact that some women have undergone it is important to acknowledge. We all have a responsibility to ensure that well-being of everyone in the community. If someone has acknowledged that they have experienced pain, it does little help to have you dismiss what they experienced.

One of the most difficult challenges of working on FGC is when the pain that some people go through can be dismissed by others. Regardless of whether or not you have undergone pain associated to undergoing FGC or khatna yourself, the fact that some women have undergone it is important to acknowledge. We all have a responsibility to ensure that well-being of everyone in the community. If someone has acknowledged that they have experienced pain, it does little help to have you dismiss what they experienced.

Yes, alcoholism and adultery are bad and unfortunately affect mumineen – 1) those are CHOICES made by consenting adults and to stop them, the adult has to choose again -and inshAllah, they will stop. A child who is forced to undergo Khafz is not consenting and it is not her CHOICE – the only way to make this okay is to let the girl choose for herself to undergo Khafz when she is an adult; 2) they are NOT PERMANENT – mumineen who have done moharammaat can, hopefully, become pure again. Khafz is an irreversible and permanent procedure, and that young girl must feel its consequences the rest of her life; and 3) why can we not focus on multiple bad things at a time? Just because alcoholism and adultery are bad does not mean Khafz is not bad too. Let’s become a better community in all ways.

I know plenty of doctors. Doctors have personal opinions which can differ from the consensus of the medical community worldwide. But there is a standard code of conduct that doctors must follow in their professional capacity.

Clitoral unhooding may well be beneficial for SOME ADULT women, those who experience sexual dysfunction due to a large amount of prepuce tissue on the clitoris but what is the justification of doing it to ALL 7-year old girls? Do you know something about their sexual function that we don’t? Are you saying that all girls and women who are not cut are unclean?

If khafz/khatna/female circumcision/clitoral unhooding is so beneficial, why must it be done in secret? Why is it considered by the World Health Organization as a form of FGM?

Your comment says “debates are not our thing to do”. What do you mean? That we should follow everything Dr.syedna muffaddal saifuddin aqa (t.u.s) says without question?

He allowed letters to be released by several jamaats worldwide telling its members to stop doing khatna and now is telling us to do it in secret. Which contradictory statement are we supposed to follow? And how do we explain to the police when they come after us for doing something illegal? The letters clearly state the jamaat will not help the parents should they choose to do khatna to their daughter. Will our respected Dr.syedna muffaddal saifuddin aqa (t.u.s) defend us then?

I’ve heard that eliminating the clitoral hood actually makes the clitoris so sensitive that it becomes difficult for the women to enjoy sex. This has been told to me by a close family member who has had the procedure done. You being a doctor may have a medical opinion, but it surely cannot be an informed one unless you have a clitoris yourself, so you are technically speaking with less than half knowledge yourself.

Sure Drugs, Alcohol, and Adultery affect Mumineen too, but that dosen’t reduce the importance of this issue.

If true knowledge is statements like this then the whole article is tenuous at best:

“As shown earlier, male circumcision confers significant health benefits. That its female equivalent which involves an analogous procedure, the removal of the prepuce of the clitoris should offer similar benefits goes without saying.”

As you say, Munira Ben: “Half knowledge is always harmful”

Look up FIGO, the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics and search FGM and you will see that this “small surgical procedure” does not have the benefits that posters here are touting.

@Saifuddin Mechant – it’s not just one medical journal speaking against your supposed Shari’a, it is thousands of scientific articles and studies, IN ADDITION TO other sects of Islam (that also follow the orders of the Prophet and Allah) which do not condone female circumcision. If you want to follow logical, scientific, AND religious backing, the proof falls against Khafz.

I challenge you to send me only 100 scientific articles and studies to substantiate your argument.
Moreover, If these sects who also follow the orders of the Prophet and Allah choose not to condone female circumcision, then they are trying to go one up on Allah.

To those who knew Quran knew that ALI Maula AS is the speaking Quran.Quran after Alhamd has Alif laam mim Zalik al kitab..Commense and little arabic vocublary literates know Zalik means That ..Allah did not say this book .So whats rather who is That Book !Do search out genuinely….So for Only those who truly believed that is ofcourse Mohammad SAW or His Vasi Ali Maula AS or the true Imams & Duat kiraam in Imams seclusion.So the topic now is precisely accurately narrated by Mohammad SAW & Ali Maula AS has given his exactitude on extent and the limit for genuine Sunnat for a true believer.Never meant Fgm or torture .Infact its a real blessing upon us that such revealations from Ali Maula AS on total humanitarian and healthy grounds came to light.Animal instincts were removed with the very subtle obligations to which we bow..As always Mohammad SAW sharyat proves truly scientific blissful and so enlightened.Then proved till date as the best that any scientist of modern so called sciences approves for.May it be interest free business Using squatting position for defeacation growing a beard washing hands before after meals chewing 40 times each morsel of food to quote a few.Even if we now do not understand Surely after some time these things come to be known as science ..All needn’t be proved for but subtle Hikmat is always proving every big small aspect in totality and absolute wisdom..Thanks a million times to our beloved Maula tus always guiding us towards the best enlightened path & best of elevated knowledge, always safeguarding true humanity and esteem of all men and women all truefollowers to highest status giving us pure wisdom in its whole purity & originality .As propogated by Mohammad SAW & Maula Ali AS…

“Even if we now do not understand Surely after some time these things come to be known as science”

That may be true but ask the women who still have nightmares about their khatna 10, 20, 30, 40, even 50 years later. This is torture for too many girls and women, even if the intent was for it not to be torture. Women do not have special animal instincts that need to be tamed. We are human beings with rights and feelings, just like men.

When science catches up with the religious teachings, then women can decide for themselves whether they want to be cut but nothing you’ve said supports doing this to young girls.

@ sahiyo . Atleast before making the women of your community vunerable by just few British answers , if you would have just gone to syedna mufaddal saifuddin tus before going to the media and the rest of the world who doest care for anything it would have got you an reason why this is done and what are its benefits. After that you would have gone to them as you wished . And its not just bohras womens are subjected to female circumcision not FGM what you people consider even christian,Jews in many Arab countries and in Europe and America practise it . So why all this hue and cry is about and why the hell you want syedna to answer , if his answer was important for you people you would have first approached him not the media . And he would have given you the prefect answer as to why it is done and what is its benifits and every thing . You people dont know how to get the answer for the question with sweet language .You people have brought shame to the community. May be the way of procedure may be wrong but not the circumcision.

And what about his disappointment with you girls . Before asking him to clarify his position did you go and ask him what he wanted to say about the female circumcision. He is like a father figure he would have given you the knowledge about it , why it is being done if you had any doubt he would have cleared it if and only if you would have approached him before than the media which you people though was a good option. But I need to tell you that the work cannot be done in the manner you did although you people made your case more worst .
You should have asked him about its benefits and all .
I should tell you that for the world of genetics and medicine the HolyQuran stands as a research book for the entire human race . And our moula knows better than the medical fraternity what is good and what is not . Atleast you people should have asked him and researched on it and then if you would have told him to clarify he would have done . But not this way that you have taken .
And you use the word” Respected” it seems much like just a word than its really value to you girls. Its not like a sadhu or pope its position is much more devinely guided than other.
If you want the answer for your female circumcision I would suggest go and get the Qur’an to answer ur question before . Hope you believe in Qur’an . Go and get a “faal” for the question you will get your answer . Hope you get a right guided answer and help to ask for forgiveness from Allah for your devil infected mind .

We, as well as many other women, have repeatedly tried to get an answer out of the clergy regarding why khatna is practiced. In fact in 2011, Tasleem petitioned the Syedna in 2011 regarding khatna. Her plea for a conversation and answers went unheard. To this day, she still has never received any answers. Many women, like our co-founder, Aarefa Johari, have also tried to get an explanation for khatna from religious scholars within the community, and their repeated requests have also reached a dead end. For years, women have diplomatically tried to engage in conversations with religious authorities but have continually received only silence.

Because our repeated requests and approaches to the Dawoodi Bohra clergy through considerate and respectful letters and phone calls have either gone unanswered or met with responses that didn’t explain the reasons behind the practice, as a result, the media has been approached to help us shed light on the practice.

Only in the last year, have some clergy members started to provide reasons for khatna. We were told it is merely done for “taharat” or hygiene. Yet these reasons do not take into account the harm that is being done to young girls, as motivates us even more to oppose the practice, and to protect innocent children from harm.

As for bringing shame on the community? We believe that it is the practice that is blatantly carried out as an open secret that is truly shameful. During the course of the Australian trial in which various members of the Dawoodi Bohra community were caught breaking the law and performing khatna in the country, those involved lied repeatedly to legal authorities about the practice and what had been done. This trial brought international, public attention to the Dawoodi Bohra community and has unintentionally showed this community to practice a form of child abuse.

The clergy word clearly shows what you girls have gone up to. No problem with that but have you tried to meet syedna mufaddal saifuddin (tus)directly face to face?
And why didn’t you raise the question during the tenure of syedna Mohammed burhanuddin ra.
And lastly if you were present during the sermon he said that “when its being done since the time of prophet and imams and they didn’t stop this practise and they are saying that its wrong ” that means he has the reason with him . But the way you are trying to get the answer I think could have been better handled if it would have been tried within the community borders . Try getting an direct conversation with him.
And the female circumcision that we bohras do is not of the severe one or the banned one that has any harmful effect on the person .
I can agree to you on one point that its the procedure involved . That could be done under the guidance of a medical practitioner rather than any old women .
and the way you speak for your moula is not the way we all have been taught . And silence of moula towards media is not new we know what media does and what they intend so no one is going to reply to them basically . We have never heard syedna spoke to media since 50 yrs he never . So if you really want to get the answer contact directly face to face .

And lastly its not just bohras i say it again its much more severe in Iran the largest shia state , and sunni Arab world .
only the African nations are the one who practise the most severe type. its common in the all religion from Judaism , Christianity, Islam since ages and many other tribals of American amazon forest area.

And in 2011 tasleem petitioned syedna about the fgm .
Why couldn’t she directly talk with the syedna at that time. She should have firstly met him and at that time she should have raised the issue with him he would have replied .
aur you could have got in touch with the dr Moiz bhaisaheb . He is the one of the best doctors he would have helped you in getting the answer from the syedna .

As we have already noted and as other women have noted in the comments, we have tried to directly speak with the Syedna. He has refused to do so. If you think it is so easy to meet with him, then please I urge you to meet with the Syedna and talk to him about this issue and report back to us.

We have sent several respectful letters directly to Syedna and received no response. And many of us against khatna have talked to local jamaat aamils and board members and received little information and were told to ask Maula directly.

What are we to do then?

We looked at the Quran and read many interpretations and the majority of Muslim groups do not condone khatna as being mandated by the Quran.

We hoped to get a right guided answer too but so far, nothing. If you can help us get an answer, we would appreciate your help given that you seem to be knowledgeable in the right way to ask the Syedna.

And please, there is no reason to insult anyone who disagrees with you.

It’s interesting that whenever anyone tells us to “go and ask Syedna directly”, and when we say that we have tried and received no response, and ask that person to help us get a direct meeting with Syedna, that person disappears. It’s not that easy so if you think it’s easy, help us get in contact because you clearly know something that we don’t and we would appreciate your help.

Please do take the trouble of sorting out fact from myth. Clitorial unhooding and not female genital mutilation is the surgical practice prevalent in our community. As a practicing doctor and also as a woman I’m yet to hear or see my fellow sisters suffering or have suffered from any consequences of this practice. At any age doctors and medical procedures are scary. Nobody has pleasant memories of visiting a doctor.

There are more life threatening issues like alcoholism , addiction and adultery etc prevalent out there and a necessary voice against it needs to be raised against them.

While we understand that you have not come across any Bohra women suffering from any consequences of khatna, several of us – members of Sahiyo and other forums working on this issue – have actually come across plenty of women who continue to carry physical and psychological scars left by the cut. And these memories are distinctly different from other memories of going to doctors for other medical procedures. We believe it is the secrecy and taboo surrounding this practice that prevents many women from speaking out about these scars.To hear more about these women’s stories, you can visit https://sahiyo.com/category/stories-and-narratives/

Additionally, female genital mutilation as defined by the World Health Organization includes all includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons. Under this definition, even khatna falls under it. Additionally, if an adult women elects to have clitoral unhooding, that is her choice. Khatna, as done in the Bohra community is done to young girl who often do not know what is happening to them and are too young to consent to it. That is the major difference!

I am tired of people saying that they don’t know of any women who complain about having had khatna done. Isn’t that the same argument the Germans used when the Holocaust was happening under their noses? There’s a term for that: burying your head in the sand.

The fact is that there are many, many women that have spoken out about their horrible experiences (some of those stories are on this site) and many of us have spoken in private with literally hundreds of women who remember their khatna vividly and do not want to subject their own daughters to this practice.

Given that you support Type I and Type IV FGM, as classified by the World Health Organization, do you think women are going to openly discuss their hesitation about the practice with you?

I would respond to you with your own words: Please do take the trouble of sorting out fact from myth.

And I would URGE you to read some of these stories and tell me if deceiving a young child, cutting them and telling them not to to ever talk about it with anyone (as was the case of the 2 little girls in in Sydney, Australia) is really what our community condones?

For all the pro Khatna Doctors I have just one question. If this practice is so good and beneficial why is it done in small dingy rooms of Bhendi Bazaar by women who have no medical background whatsoever. Why aren’t you’ll the ones offering these services in your respective OPD’s openly as a service to the community.

I’m going to take a guess and say that you are a man. Try to have even a small understanding of the trauma that young girls go through with this practice and the lasting trauma women into their adulthood have spoken about. Do the pain and feelings of Bohra women mean nothing at all? The masses should definitely be educated. Start with the World Health Organization:

Since we agree on the trauma part, then our first step should be to convince WHO to remove female circumcision from their list of FGM and also request them to emphasize on the procedure to be followed.

I can’t forget the pain I went through after Khatna. My physical scars are healed but mentally I still feel scared. I can’t forget the brutality I went through. Being cut with a naked blade and NO USE OF ANESTHESIA was no fun. I would not want my daughters or any other little girl to go through this atrocity!! Barbaric, Brutal, and almost felt like a rape!!! 😡😢

Alefia we truly feel the pain which you would have under gone . Even male circumcision is done under anesthasia . I m just trying to say that not just because the procedure causes pain is not the reason for banning that procedure . The prophet and the imam which allowed this knew its benefits that the reason its being carried out since ages and we do want that the pain should go that can be by using the proper medical procedure at a hospital , rather than at home . We support for the method not for the banning which they are trying without having adequate knowledge of it .

Here’s my question: Is the Syedna advocating that we break the laws of our lands? Are all of you folks who argue for the (extremely dubious, superstitious, misogynistic) benefits of khatna suggesting the same?

I’m really tired of people denying the trauma of Bohra women. Your sisters deserve more respect. Please educate yourselves about sexuality and trauma before you cut your seven-year-olds.

Your comment: “I think the issue here is the manner in which khatna or circumcision is carried out in females. If it is done surgically by a qualified doctor then there would be no complaints.”

Remember that we are talking about a surgical procedure on a 7-year old girl on a very private part. This can cause traumatic flashbacks similar to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Is it okay for Bohra girls and women to experience this trauma?

If women, as consenting adults, choose to have khatna done, then it is their prerogative but a young girl is not even allowed to make the decision and usually is not even told what is going to be done to her.

There are so many issues with khatna. If we are an educated and benevolent society, then we need to stop it right now. If science catches up with the teachings of Rasulullah (SAW) that have been stated by some posters here and elsewhere, then let adult women decide for themselves whether they should be cut.

Have read all the comments and reply by sahiyo, and I get a feeling that the group just wants to have it’s own way. It is convinced that khatna is fgm and does not want to consider any other arguments. That is putting your head in the sand.
As far as I and thousands of dawoodi bohras are concerned, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin (TUS) is the last word for any questions regarding Sharia.
By the way, parents have been given the responsibility of raising their children in the best way possible. So the onus of many decisions have to borne by them. If the parents believe khatna is beneficial, So be it. Why should sahiyo interfere.

Sahiyo and others are not interfering. We are voicing the opinion of hundreds of women that have reached out to us to talk about their khatna and many men who are horrified that khatna was done to their daughter. And you know what stops so many of them from speaking in public about it? Pressure from Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin (TUS) and elders in the community that do not allow parents to make their own decision.

No one should give consent for khatna except the woman having khatna done to her. It should not be forced on her as a child or as an adult. If she decides of her OWN FREE WILL as an adult that it should be done, then it is her prerogative.

And I would educate yourself on who considers “khatna is fgm” because you will find that the majority of Muslims and medical professionals the world over will agree that it is.

Let the woman grow up and decide for herself if she wants to get vaccinated or wants to be a Muslim or wants to go to school. Don’t ever force your kids for their good. Considering science as a lie detector test of religion is quiet right. Male curcumcission is practiced only because it has the backing of science. Otherwise where in Quran is it written? Yeah there are saheeh hadees about it. And who makes them sahih as in correct…? A few organisations. Okay if my organisation -dawoodi bohra calls hadees on female curcumcission saheeh …I should never agree with it. Coz I’m not on haqq …various other institutes and yeah science is haqq.
Basically.. If female circumcussion is a prescribed practice then it should be done just like male circumcission. And im sur . you have done enough googling…and u know of three hadees favouring female circumcission. So i do wat i am told to do according to my community. After all nothing in islam has ever harmed me. Complete obedience is commanded even by Allah or at least expected. I dont question Allah and i dont question his messenger or his dai. Research is an evolving concept. You know milk and calcium has no CO relation according to new study. A research can completely overturn a fact that we’ve been believing . whatever…all I wanna say is my faith is ancient and stubborn but if I truly believe in it…it gives me answers to all questions according to the time I live in. U just need to interpret it that way.
Hikmat will find its way to others someday…but for me it’s already there.

I should tell you go and read Qur’an first and what prophet has said it would have been better you call ur self a Muslim wow It doesn’t seem to be by your language and your words you are using . You seem to not beleving in any thing then why the hell are you beleving in Islam also who told you Islam is a religion. Who saw Qur’an coming from skies.have U ever seen Allah . Or talked with him . No . Than? We were told by the prophet and his wasi moula Ali . That why we belive
. male circumcision has been told by prophet and female circumcision also by the prophet so why it is wrong .
Secondly the female circumsision also has its own benefits . Please go and Google it atleast before writting such a nonsense post . Or atleast you should have read the above post by the sahiyo members . Atleast they re talking with some thing .
Go and get your facts right first and then speak

I have not read any other post on this forum that made the point so effortlessly and clearly. And of all the decisions taken by parents for children, for this one to be singled out (children having dental issues cannot sit in a dental chair way into adulthood as they have been ‘scarred’), it seems more like a scathing attack on the spiritual head rather than any deep concern for a child.

That is blatantly not true. So many of us against khatna are members of the Bohra community led by our spiritual head, Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin. Given that he could not have experienced what we did, how can he just ignore our pain and the pain of so many grown women who relive that day as a 7-year old year after year. Where is the empathy?

Also, dental pain is something that one needs to react to. What is it that khatna is reacting to? What did a 7-year old girl do to warrant being cut?

let the girls decide once they grow up whethr to get themselves vaccinated or go to school or become a muslim at all. let us really not do them any good. you know male circumcission is done only coz it has a western and british backing in science. of course science has to be the litmus test for religion and not the other way round. coz science is haqq,,,or should i say science of western countries is haqq. their organisations, their doctors should dictate whats right and wats wrong while they drug themselves to death. anyway…the point is not them or us. the point is if female circumcission is a prescribed practice ,it should be done. just like male cicumcission which too doesnt have a Quran backing. male circumcission finds place in the saheeh hadees. who marks them saheeh…? muslim org. all over. u must have googled enough to find the three hadees in favour of female circumcission…many call them saheeh…in fact the shafi hanabali maliki school of thoughts call these saheeh. Well, i consider my org-dawoodi bohra -to be the governing body to marks things saheeh or galat. coz i believe i am on haqq.

the WHO report although includes cltoral unhooding under fgm, it refers to it as (rarely occurs). and in my community only this rarely occuring event of removal of prepuce or even less than that is removed.

research is evolving process. you knw even milk and calcium have no correlation according to the new study..where milk was almost synonymous to calcium according to an old study. nothing in islam has ever harmed me…so this shall not too. Complete obedience to something that is right(islam) only shows u the truth ,the light of ilm behind it. and doubts always kill ur faith. my faith is ancient and stubborn but it gives me answers considering the evolution in time. only thing required is the strongest amount of trust in its truthfuless.

“we are really not scared of anyone” kind of attitude comes only if i am on truth side of a thing. its not my arrogance or radicalism. its my confidence in my faith. u tell me my faith has no medical backing? really then whole of islam is a farce. islam makes science and not the other way round.

i m stressing on islam coz if the practice is islamic u really have no problem ,right? so we dawoodi bohras consider it islamic (to the limit its allowed in the hadees) ppl who trangress these limits need to be checked by sahiyo.

only clarify what the bone of contention is
female CIRCUMCISION not mutilation,is not a prescribed practice—-we say it is
female circumcission is done without consent of the child—–we say say male circumcission is the same too
female circumcision has no place in science—–many islamic concepts have no science backing
female circumcision is cruel,barbaric—-why not male circumcision? dont have double standards.
female circumcision is painful—- not more painful than a vaccination to a child…yeah u love adding drama to ur memories to gain sympathy…not our problem. its a pinch thats it.
the jewish and christian books have male circumcision so its all good. but female circumcision is not their concept so its all barbaric. why?
the motive is to curb sexual desire of woman—we say the motive is only adhering to a hadeeth…the real motive Allah knows well.
Do not misguide ppl under the banner of feminism—the in thing today. next is the crusade against hijab and then women leaving their parents house after marriage. i am sure all these a human rights violation. as humans, give us the right too to do wat we want. no? why? because that will form a decadent society? then every fight against religion claiming that its inconsistent with today’s time will also give a decadent society. how many times have we heard our oldies whining that these times are dangerous,u can not trust anyone…its not like the old times when religion culture were the binding forces for good ppl. give more flexibility suffer more. its true how much ever barbaric or intolerant it may sound; only thing the liberal societies of the world are yet to realise it or rather admit it. dont know about other religions but islamic constraints are only and only truth.

even if u say that syedna referred to khatna (while i dont agree), he clearly states that Rasulloolah(saw) has said it and he cannot say anything that harms us. these are not his views but from nabi(saw).

yes freedom of choice is the most in thing today. feminism is more like “i can do wat he can do too” rather than ” i like doing my thing”. the societies become patriarchal only when we women think we are deprived of something. my community is the one where women pray in the mosque with men. they educate themselves ,they are liberated by their thoughts, they organise events-all under the beautiful concept of hijab. hijab considered as an islamic constraint by many has not stopped the progress of women in my community.

so u choose to not get ur kids circumcised and we choose something else. do not pressurise someone to agree with u. if the ppl were uneducated,u may teach them ..but we are aware and have some strong reasons for wat we do. let us have the freedom of choice for our kids.

ours is not a patriarchal society and do not want to be a matriarchal society too. please let us be a religion adhering society.

if the question of equality arises again then take the Quran and question the creator why did he give unequal laws of property inheritance…why did he allow upto four wives for a man. why he made men incharge of women(4:34), why he said-stay in ur houses(33:32-34) why hijab was commanded by him? the commands of the creator aren’t human rights violation. women do not have the rights to go out of their homes?

the strongest form of opposition to ur fight is also now coming from within the community. and we are not ready to talk is the attitude of not arrogance but out of the fact that if u ppl cannot agree to a hadeeth that we are quoting then personal views of ours will hardly matter to u. so why debate? if u have made up ur mind that the hadeeth is faulty or untrue or weak then the whole point itself becomes useless. the sayings of Mohammed(saw) is the basis of this practice so if basis is believed to be untrue then how will a discussion with u help.

if Allah has sent us whole…why should we be cut? why should u shave ur hair ,why should u cut ur nails ,why trim ur moustache? to enhance the look of ur body? why? u dont like the look Allah gave u? then came the 5 fitrah…favouring cutting …without distinction being made between men and women. one fitrah is trimming ur moustache…women dont get it otherwise it applies to them too. See the thing now has become like whatever we do should be liked by the west otherwise its barbaric.

Are you comparing hair and nails which are made of dead cells of the body to a women’s clitoris. Nails are protein called keratin. It is made up of dead skin cells. Women clitoris is her sex organ and is highly sensitive. If you cut nails and hair the grow again. Here you are about cutting of a sex organ which is not going to grow back! Make sense please.

My body is my research. I see what they have done to me. You are misinformed. You are a male trying to tell me what happened to me, actually didn’t happen!!! You talking to someone who has been cut for no reason. I feel deprived of the sensations during sexual activity. The clitoris is the main female sex organ, which is cut. Is this good enough for you to understand or you need more explanation!!

I sympathize with you that you cannot enjoy full sexual satisfaction because an old lady did not know the correct procedure for female circumcision. That is what I have been emphasizing in all my replies. Rather than ban female circumcision we should work on the correct procedure to be followed.

I’m certainly not comparing those things …I’m just saying the fitrah of Rasoolulla (saw) is important and it includes these five things. And only logic that comes to my mind about following these things is enhancing one’s looks and avoid hurting someone physically or otherwise. Cutting nails shaving pubuc hair has no medical benefit but we still do it…its in the fitrah….So circumcission too shall have some purpose we don’t know today…we will come to know later.
If male circumcission was stopped until we discovered that it had some medical benefits ..then the practice would’ve been non existent by now. I don’t want to make sense of everything in Islam…its not possible to for someone insignificant and intellectually feeble like me. I only know Islam is the most sensible religion of all. It will take its time for everyone to realise. And my objective of commenting here is just to make clear that for some us in the community faith us all that matters and that faith will never harm us. For the doubtful …Khuda nek taufeeq aape.

Alifya n Zehra Patwa,
While going thru all the posts and all the rebuttals doctors are giving it simply suggests that their learning’s of medical sciences has gone for a toss.their logics are evidently biased n I sense fanaticism too.these fanatics will rant n rave since their logical reasoning is completely overpowered by sayings of Aka Maula……Hypocrites. I suggest u continue the good work minus arguing with such literate yet daft persons cos I’m sure they are the ones who believe in” meri murgi ki ek taang”.
Being a male I cannot empathize but just can sympathize with ladies who have undergone such traumatic procedures n now are protesting to stop this.No man who loves his mom n sister will ever consent to this act,let be it some one else daughter or sister too.word of advise to u both” the world is full of highly educated idiots,real learning is to know as how to avoid such idiots who indulge into malpractices in the name of Islam n Allah.
All the best both of you….stay blessed. N keep it up.Sajid

The issue here is 10000% consent. All of the ppl who are saying “katna has all these amazing benefits” well that’s just swell, since it’s so great why not give women the choice to do it when they are able to consent to having part of their sexual organs cut off. The argument that it’s up to the parents holds no weight with me. Cutting off sexual organs is not a decision to be made by parents, it’s a breach of the parents fiduciary obligation to the child and a crime and a human rights violation. If it’s so great then why are all you lovely doctors not having an open call to provide the services? Are you seriously saying that we are the only community who has the scientific background and knowledge of these amazing benefits? Doctors, scholars and human rights advocates are just confused? As to the ppl who say that maula is the final word on sharia…… Great argument, so we should blindly follow a practice of sexual violation on seven year old girls being propagated by a man because someone centuries ago said it was a good idea ??? If we are following that logic we are on a slippery slope. My father refused to have this process done to me and my sisters as my mom is still so traumatized by it 50 years later. She was told she was going for “ice cream”…… She had had countless sexual health complications due to this procedure. Really critically evaluate your beliefs. Faith is not about blindly following traditions, it’s about being a good human being and sexually assaulting 7 yr old girls just doesn’t seem to fit in that category.

Then I think every thing that was told by the people ( prophets , imams , dais ,) should be first check for its compatibility now and then when the science approves it then only you should do it . By this how do you guarantee that the every research by the science is perfect . I my self being an engineer have know that science is just not perfect for anything its just an assumption based logic . thats it .
and you are beleving in this so called activist who just know half truths just to make that the prophet and the imam who knew every bit of this universe well better than them are wrong and this people are right .

That someone centuries ago was Prophet Mohammed (saw) and His Vasi Maula Ali (as ). Now your are on slippery grounds.
Once again I will reiterate, khatna does not involve cutting of any female organs. Please get your facts right.Just because your mother had countless sexual problems does not mean that all women will have similar problems . As for the trauma caused, it was the manner in which khatna was done previously, which can be improved upon in this day and age

Zehra patwa
Yes you got me right , I exactly mean that we should follow what maula says without a doubt and not debate for he propagates nothing but rasullulah (saw) teachings which can never be harmful ,others with disturbed imaan who are questioning his teachings as fellow mumins I.’ll only pray that hope better sense prevails.and have you sahiyos taken the pains to educate the bohra women to whom u.’ll claim to have spoken to about the difference between clitoral unhooding and female genital cutting because nowhere on your page do I read the correct term it’s only female genital cutting that your talking of .
Amatullah m
First and foremost one can’t compare khafz and alcoholism because they are two diagonally opposite things one is rasulullahs(saw)shariah and the other is haraam ,and if your talking about permanent changes alcoholism can cause permanent liver disease like irreversible cirrhosis which can prove fatal.
@munira rawat
I guess you are grossly unaware of the humungous amount of work that has been done and is being done to free mumineen from moharramat in the community under the right guidance of aqa moula(tus).and the message is for people who do not know how to prioritize between shariah and things that are haraam.

How come Ali(saw) is not the rightful wasi for all Muslim sects? How come there are 72 sects with atleast minutely different ideologies ,little different culture , little different of everything ? According to Wikipedia khatna is agreed to be Islamic by many Muslim school of thoughts. AL azhar Univ also recommended the practice . it is only recently a professor from AL azhar declared that it was anti Islamic(probably under Western influence) and had to face lot of criticism.

The whole point is ,you are not fighting the practice. You are fighting the belief in the hadees. Soon you would be fighting everything that the community does and that is inconsistent with other sects of Muslim world.

If the problem is 100% consent…then let’s first start with male cicumcision. If not at least lets begin with both male and female circimcision together.

Moula (tus) means everything to us. He is not just some man propagating something. You ppl hardly know wat moula means to us.Something I ve come to know is that ppl involved in this movement are not adhering dawoodi bohra members at all. Some are supposed “reformist” who always had problem with the way the community functions. Some are out of the community for some reason and some are dawoodi bohras with the shallowest faith. Like, they are there just like that…no contribution no participation no liking for the community. They are the types who hate control and now they’ve got a reason to protest that will get all the media glaring coz today’s in- thing is feminism. It’s not that “fgm” (as they term it) got them hating the community. They were anyway disinterested in it. They were ppl who wanted to be in the fold but do their own thing.

Im being judgemental coz sajid shakir was judgemental about us. Even if we are “meri murghi ki ek taang” types ppl, we are so proud of it. Coz there s something beyond human concept that makes us say this…our religion!! And our religion is not a derived concept like science on whose basis we fight battles against our own ppl.

It’s not only the sexual satisfaction, it’s worst . Can you talk beyond the procedure. You are talking about cutting a girl’s genitals without her consent. You are preaching and asking everyone to practice child abuse! Is this what you are so proud of… Where is your humanity? The whole world is condemning this and here you are giving explanations to do it. Can you stop telling us that it should be done with a change in procedure!!

I’m sorry but Islam teaches humanity to the greatest extent possible. While humanity is beyond all religions ,islam is the foundation of humanity. Greatest Human ness is the genuineness in my relationship beyond personal pleasure ! Fight the practice till your day of realisation.

In that case you must take up male circumcision with as much gusto.
All through sahiyo has been playing the tune of consent.
If the female consents to FGM with her own free will then she is not violating any laws.
Logically it implies that FGM is not the issue,
If consent is obtained.

This sounds like a broken record now. Nothing is going to change by twisting words. Harming a child’s body for no reason is child abuse. There is no comparison between male circumcision and female genital cutting. Males have a fore skin which is cut for hygiene purposes and nothing such exists in females. I can’t keep arguing because you don’t seem to get it. I pray the law will bring justice to us! 🙏🏼

You too have been playing the same record again and again.There is a reason for female circumcision which you do not agree to for your own personal reasons. I pray that Allah will judge very soon.Sahiyo seem to be stuck with the concept that female circumcision is FGM.
Females have a prepuce or hood covering their clitoris. A very small amount of skin is taken from this hood thus increasing the sexual pleasure that a woman should experience.

I am totally amused by Sahiyo and the types of Masooma Ranalvi’s who stand up to the world to represent ME and 10000’s of the majority Dawoodi Bohra women like me without my / our consent!

In what right have you decided to go to the world to proclaim you are doing it for me, my interests and benefit?
Who has given you the right to decide whats right for me?

Stop right away and i demand an APOLOGY from you if you don’t want to face further consequences

FGM FC Kaphds discussions debates are all afterwards but How did you dare to speak on my behalf?

If you have thought that you are like my sister set out to do good for me, I defy and denounce you as my sister, brother or whoever meaning wishing, worrying about having my safety or benefits in mind as my true benefactor would speak to me (all us women) i repeat, would speak to me, make me understand least of all would my true brother or sister go on TV, Internet blowing my dignity to pieces without in the least think of what harm they have done to me least their thought so good!
Its in your opinion that you feel you are doing me a great favour to speak on my behalf while you dont even know that opinions are personal opinions and may not be based on truths or facts and when on half baked truts are mostly harmful.

Nay, you are fighting your personal issues in my ( majority DB) name.

See what repurcussions you have landed me into.. Everyday as i wake up i read something bad about me and my kin, be forced to feel we are barabaric and our ancestors are too as per your versions of proclaims created by you and your clan!

Enough of your nonsense. Stop them right away as you cannot be fighting for my rights stepping upon my first and foremost right of my consent to you to represent me.

You have thrown enough merc’ on me and My reverred, respected Aqa Moula tus who is in no way patriarchal nor forcing us to do anything be it farizat or sunnat’.

At an individual level all of us have a choice to follow or not to follow. You are living examples of it if at all you are Dawoodi Bohra as proclaimed by you.

Further, just as your father, can choose to answer or not to answer a question raised by their kid, if you are his child, you wouldn’t proclaim him to be bad before the world that you have seemed to have made it your mission.

Well if you seem to be DB as you say you seemingly are then as my brother and sister, I being your sibling despise you for using derogatory remarks on my reverred Father, our Aqa Moula tus whom you label as clergy etc and demand whatsoever.

You have hurt my feelings gravely by your disrespectfulness and come to think of it you want to say you are representing me?

Your attitude, your words itself tells me that you are here not for me but for your personal interests and not for Dawoodi Bohra, per say tarnishing the image of Dawoodi Bohra you couldnt ever claim to be one!

My very sanctum issues on sexuality, private parts are being discussed here in No Man”s land that treads upon my personal arena.

My belief my faith is mine and I have not given you any rights to decide for me.
You are not authorized to speak for me.
And all your journalists and media provoked by you tell them to stop referring YOU as my spokesperson as I have not nominated you nor given you my consent to speak for me.

Regarding Kaphds and clitoral dehooding as practised the islamic way and FGM, well you and your clan have clarified that its no way close to mutilation and kaphs is just type 1 wrongly clubbed into FGM.

I simply laugh at you for many of you with your false proclamations are seemingly having fairly good sexual lives, with hardly any problems in child birth due to kaphs per say and are fighting it seems to have pre marital and extra marital sex that even if is banned by law or religous commitments as in marriage are indulged in by those who want it or choose not to have it as their way of life.

If you have issues on indulging into premarital or extramarital sexual lives its a well known fact that sexual act is a very intricate affair and as one amongst you proclaimed that she wanted her bf to just get it over with ‘ would for any reasonable mind be enough to understand that it would end in displeasur whether kaphs was performed on or not.

Further, You don’ t see the pun in your own staements that even after badly performed kaphs as you claim, you as per your quote being a Dawoodi Bohra choose freely to indulge in pre marital sex.. So where is the question of this kaphs being performed to prevent sexual pleasures?

Its the procedure that went awry’ my dear girls and I challenge you to stop all the best of surgeries going awry’ despite the surgeons being well trained, which indeed would be better time spent than this futile mission personal grouses that you have ventured into. Really seems the limelight bugs have caught on’

As someone rightly pointed out your dobious stakes on it being performed on a major on medical grounds or rights n willingness grounds if its not harmful then age factor seems hardly relevant.

Since many vaccinations are given to All Kids being minors that could cause psychological truama n scaring for life, many known to fear or have phobias for injections and sharp pointed objects for lifetime seem trival as also only a few of those ALL vaccinated may actually suffer from disease but are vaccinated still so that the chances of getting a disease is nullified, so too since in Islam farizat and sunnat is known to have never caused any harm why shoudn’t kaphs a harmless procedure not be performed as a way of PREVENTION or even belief?
I see your arguments of age and child’s rights being baseless.

As for your rights’ stance please work on lots many issues of taking the right of a minor to send them to a school of their choice or to pierce their ears or nose for cosmetic n aestheic reasons on minors before you advocate that my parents shouldnt have tresspassed on my right or I would violate my child’ s rights!

Yes your parents need to bear the onus and you are free to question them, who knowingly or unknowingly are to be blamed for the truama that you have highlighted as your concern which is surely not to be generalised for me and others like me.

Oh! Don’t bother to give me your silly replies that the ears and nose are less important organs than the one that you have splashed about all over so far in the guise of doing good to me.

As regards your patriachal stance I challenge you to stand up against the whole world to get womens equal rights in everythng on the globe before you embark on this wrongly addressed issue.

Dawoodi Bohra is not patriachial as you know it foe yourself and yet you dont even acknowlege the simple truth that all DB woman enjoy equal rights to enter the masjid, stand shoulder to shoulder with their brothers or life partners to be educated and work with equal rights in all aspects or rather with more opportunities as Women.
As you have raised this issue and as I went through it, I must say I am elated to know that Islam and the preachings of Mohammed SAW have ensured me to be on par with the men who has khatna performed as kaphs’ female circumcision as per Islamic ways that is on par with male circumcision to the extent of boys procedure involving much more intricacy, is done mostly at infancy or soon after birth while Islam has assured to be soooo very gentle to women and girls to advocate this procedure only after 7 yrs of age and is so very minor done rightly that the best of Gyneacologists will fail to know the difference on those who have kaphs performed or not.

While the world is struggling to establish equality, my faith, my religion has imparted upon me since more than 1400 years! My salutations to Islam and Islamic ways that the world has yet to discover!

Its really sad that medical sciences were not as advanced before 3, 4 decades and my empathy with all the young and adults who have endured pain or have had scarring memories that have etched upon as barbaric. Well, the procedure may have scope of improvisatio, standardization and done in the most gentle ways meant fo in Islam.

Although personally, I recall no such incidences nor have I come across women and young girls mostly dealt by me as part of my profession who have had untoward health or psychological issues per say due to kaphs.

Well, by the way if you want to counter my experience with women and girls as I quoted above, let me tell you that I am a family physician, friend and guide to most of them who come and reveal the depth of depths to their heart’s content sure to remain a private thing with me, while the very ways in which you have gone about catching’ hold of people unawares’ to quote them in your favours is questionable on the ethical ways in which they have been compiled.

Last, but not the least I a have had to take off my valuable time off as you have deeply hurt my sentiments, caused me and many Dawoodi Bohra women and young girls grevious unpardonable harm, hurt making us a luaghing stock’ before the world and our peees. Everyday where we go it gives a cuase to people to question my basic beliefs and rights to choose to follow or not to follow, see me as part of a barbaric sect and enter into my private arena questioning my integrity by your so called acts of do good to me?

So, I call upon you to stop doing your so called ‘do good’ for me rather fight your own personal issues and grouses with motives best known to you and evident now to us on your own guts (if you have) without in any ways using my name representing me our women like me hanging onto us seemingly falsely conveying you as a part of US to the World!

Please leave us out of you’ and mind your own business as i have not appointed you and your clan to speak for me nor do i give you the rights to discuss about Dawoodi Bohras generalising your experiences to be that of the majority.

Your ways are definetly not the rights’ ways as seemingly your do good is rather defaming me and you may have to pay for this henious crime that you have caused to me.

Oh so mch hue n cry abt nothing!!!
From all the posts its very evident dat sahiyo n founders want to b seen as crusaders for females…. If not den y consent for FC required when there is no talk abt consent for MC..,, if it is the so called cause for humanith n child abuse n psychological trauma…. Would request the crusaders to have a look into dingy family physician’s clinics in all over populated muslim areas n have a look at the procedure for MC carried out without anaesthesia on few day old infants….. Please do the humane work where rewuired n dont stand up to talk for us who neither know u nor are amused with ur empathy towards us…..

Dr. J, thank you very very much!!! Speaking on behalf of me and my brethren without my consent is something I won’t condone too. You’ve given words to everything I have felt and not known how to express!!! Thank you for shaming the misguided who want to misguide the rest of us. Our u deterring faith will not allow that!!!

Dr J .Hats off ! may these misguiding groups first identify theirmotive.If they had just attended Most power packed immense knowledge rendering sermons of our Maula never they would have committed this type of baseless groupism and unwanted so called service to us.May God forgive them and they see the glowing radiance of our Spiritual Father and mentor.

Awesome!Dr.j you have nailed it,totally agree with you ,sahiyos you.’ll nowhere fit the definition of saheliyos as you claim on your page, for you have done more harm to our image as dawoodi bohra women than good.

This, my good doctor (at least we hope and pray that you and others like you do more good than harm, and are able to apply what they studied in medical school to real life!), is not about “image”. It’s about protecting the bodily integrity of a child until they can make an important decision on cutting off an integral part of their body for themselves. I understand you and “Dr J” are not able to comprehend that concept in the remotest way possible, but ah well…! At least the rest of us can say we tried to reason with you.

Going against the shariat is not reasoning, it is enmity with Allah. It is declaring that you know better then the Creator.
It seems to be a lopsided argument that FC is an agreeable procedure if the female child agrees to it.
Seems logical to assume that the FC itself is not harmful if consent is obtained. Right!!!
So you mean to imply that the child has more rights and understanding of her body then Allah who, who has created that body.
Wow!!! That is arrogance.

Oh then simply dont perform male circumcision too or fior that matter dont vaccinate a child … Leave alone ear piercing…. If consent is wat u seek…..Mayb sahiyo now should spend time in drafting a consent form for their children n children of people like them

Anyway, no use arguing. Coz sahiyo agree that some Hadith somewhere talks about khatna on women(read your reply to someone on another post,where you agreed). Only thing they want us to consider the Hadith obsolete and inconsistent with 21st century. Oh yes , of course they are Muslims! Only too practical and sophisticated they want to come across. They may later strike out many hadith considering them to be too ,old fashioned. Already,most of them are without hijab
( guess Quranic revelations are obsolete too)

Of course it’s between you and Allah. You want to follow and adhere to Quran and Hadith or not is your choice. But don’t we have the choice too…to adhere to some hadith some where. Spare us! Let us be!

What do you think of those terrorists who say Allaho Akbar and throw bombs and open fire? Is it the right thing to do in the name of Allah? I would like to tell you any kind of assault or harm in the name of Allah and Hadith is not justified!!!

Yes, it is your choice to follow any Hadith you want. That is between you and Allah. But don’t impose that on a child or a woman. Let an adult woman decide if she wants to have khatna done. It is between her and Allah, not you.

Islamic concepts do not become obsolete. They are not made by man to become outdated…they are made by the creator . Jihad too is an Islamic concept. In the days of prophet…it was against the apostates. Coz it was commanded by God. Today it’s for political purposes. Mosts mujahedeens are doing it for money, not Islam. Whose creation was Osama? And in today’s liberal world there is hardly any threat to Islam. Only some genius somewhere is defaming Islam and acquiring masses of land in the name of rightful revenge. You know what I am talking about. Conspiracy theories. Do not compare terrorism today (which is not Islamic,only political)to a female circumcision. Assault is too big a word for female circumcision practised by dbs. Broken record-assault is on a new born male child too. Of course the fore skin has the sensation. In fact studies show that sex with the male foreskin is more pleasurable to women than without it. There is a dearth debatable studies around. Also note that WHO has done 99% of research on women in Africa where the cutting is mostly severe. Only recently Indonesia and Thailand were included in research but that was a study of varied vaginal practices… and anatomy changes in these sites were insignificant so again the study result of health effects of fgm were mostly based on Africa. Additionally , the Sunna circumcission according to WHO is cutting of prepuce AND part or whole of clitoris, while it’s only prepuce or less than that in our case.

Jihad today is not Islamic at all that it has to be discontinued coz theory of jihad has become obsolete. It anyway has to stop…but the root of it is not in Islam it’s in conspiracy.

Hello. I came upon this discussion by chance while I was researching entries on the Syedna. I am not a Muslim, leave alone a Dawoodi Bohra, but that is irrelevant to what I have to say to the “Sahiyo” group and to those against the practice of female circumcision or “khatna” as it is called by your community.

Dear women, you tried, and that is what counts.

You tried to reason with difficult people that exist not only in your community but across other communities and sects and across religions – be they the Abrahamic faiths- Judaism, Christianity, Islam or even Hindu, Buddhist, Jain or Sikh.

At the heart of the problem is the sheer inability of most believers to question their religious practices and spiritual leaders. Questioning is discomforting; questioning leads to anarchy and hence faith, blind as it is, must be held up. Besides questioning dismantles the status quo, a way of life, a sense of community.

If we did deeper we shall find how religion and its proponents (whatever their orientation) thrive on a culture of ignorance which is translated sometimes subtly and sometimes obviously into power play. This power play has found perfect resonance with institutions like patriarchy and even favours bad politics for its own sustenance. An unquestioning subject is the most desirable therefore and it is no wonder that religion and politics though not always the best partners have willingly accommodated each other.

Dear women rationalists, I admire your spirit and patience, and your willingness to have a debate over this very crucial and important issue concerning a woman’s sexuality, her health, and effectively her independent right to decide what she wants to do with her body.

It is indeed a trying and a tiring affair to get people blinded by faith or a certain belief to see this view, because the very nature of such faith is unrelenting. It knowns no reason, no science, no progression, no humanity. Like in this instance, it is often at its wit’s end. When it cannot justify its stance or back its claims sufficiently, it lapses into sentiment and becomes personal, as is also noted in some of the exchanges.

Sahiyo, you mean well. I do hope your critics will employ their reason and will realise that faith may be legitimate, but blind, unquestioning faith is certainly not.

why are cave people allowed to participate in advanced society? the white man gave intellectually inferior people access to technology that their limited minds could not have come up with on their own.