I've recently purchased a Sapphire ATI Radeon x800 XT to use as a multi-purpose card... gaming and 3d... The gaming aspect is great, but I'm having trouble noticing any significant performance improvements in Max. It's actually running better in OpenGL, than Directx. Are there some settings that I'm missing to help this? I went from a 64mg video card to this and I know that ATI and discreet have been working closely together so I thought that Max would rock with this card. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...

Kevin

dotTom

10-30-2004, 05:15 PM

I've recently purchased a Sapphire ATI Radeon x800 XT to use as a multi-purpose card... gaming and 3d... The gaming aspect is great, but I'm having trouble noticing any significant performance improvements in Max. It's actually running better in OpenGL, than Directx. Are there some settings that I'm missing to help this? I went from a 64mg video card to this and I know that ATI and discreet have been working closely together so I thought that Max would rock with this card. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...

KevinI'm running a PCI-Express X800 XT (256MB) with dual DVI outputs to two panels and I get great OpenGL perf. OK, so I'm using Maya not Max but I don't mean that to be a "Maya is better than Max" rant since if I run any other OpenGL apps I get great perf too. Sounds like you might be having a driver problem.

It's actually my first ATI card (I was a die hard nVidia fan boy for years) and I must say I'm very happy with it, not least the fact that its a single slot solution and doesn't have a "leaf blower" attached to it that sounds like a '747 (like my nVidia cards at work do).

Lord Banshee

10-31-2004, 05:23 AM

I've recently purchased a Sapphire ATI Radeon x800 XT to use as a multi-purpose card... gaming and 3d... The gaming aspect is great, but I'm having trouble noticing any significant performance improvements in Max. It's actually running better in OpenGL, than Directx. Are there some settings that I'm missing to help this? I went from a 64mg video card to this and I know that ATI and discreet have been working closely together so I thought that Max would rock with this card. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...

Kevin
It should be fast as hell in DirectX.. My Nvidia Card even runs faster in DirectX than in OpenGL.

I would make sure you have the lastest offical drivers from ATI site and also make sure inside max that you are using DirectX9.

If you are doing all the following the only thing i can suggest is to uninstall all ATI stuff from control panel, restart, reinstall driver, restart, try to if 3dsmax is faster.. Man that blows though.

KLuma

10-31-2004, 12:47 PM

Thanks for the advice, that's probably what I have to do. I have all of the latest drivers from ATI and I'm running directx 9.c. I'm just really bummed about this, I waited so long only to deal with this... Guess that's how it goes! Thanks again for you help...

Kevin

dotTom

10-31-2004, 12:58 PM

Make sure you have Direct X 9c installed (go to the START->Run dialog and enter "dxdiag" to run the DirectX diagnostics).

Also the latest ATI driver suite needs .NET 1.1 installed for the control panel, not that this should be impacting your 3DS Max session.
On a related note, we've found that Unreal Tournament 2004 runs slower on a ATI FireGL V3100 if you lower the res and texture / mess detail. If you raise it to the native res of your TFT and set the graphics to "holy shit" levels it runs like lightening. Odd. I remember reading something about a bug with the latest drivers on their 256MB cards that could under some circumstances slow them down.

Artician

11-10-2004, 06:13 AM

Hi all,

I am having this exact same issue. I too have a Sapphire X800 XT 256. It runs like lightning in most games but makes both Max and Maya unusable with more than 1000 polys in the viewport.

My system specs are:
P4 3Ghz
1GB RAM
WinXP Pro

I have all drivers and Direct X updated to the latest versions.

If I can't figure this out then I'm going to have to send this guy back to the store, and pay a nice fat %15 restocking fee on top of the extra cash to pick up a new card. This is very disheartening.
If anyone has any additional info about the problem, I'd really like to know. Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help out.

Omega Productions

11-10-2004, 06:41 AM

Unfortunately ATi cards are really let down by there OpenGL drivers. They have been promising a complete re-write but months later we are all still waiting.

I run a x800 XT and all I can suggest is to run Max in D3D mode and no AA ofcourse.

Artician

11-10-2004, 02:09 PM

Hi Omega:
Unfortunately I have been running them in in DirectX mode. The performance is possibly worse, which makes this even more confusing.

For some reason all my geometry displays as triangulated (all hidden edges are shown), and I can only grab objects whose faces are toward the camera (as if ignore backfaces were turned on in face-component mode, yet these are all seperate objects). These issues make me wonder even more since these settings are the ones I have always used, so it must be caused by a hardware issue.

Thanks for the reply!

Vertizor

11-10-2004, 04:16 PM

DirectX/D3D is for GAMES. 3DS Max and Maya are NOT GAMES. Period. End of story.

Alright I'll elaborate. When in comes to just rendering primatives (polygons, points, curves) DirectX and OpenGL are very similar. To argue their performance at this level is silly. DX runs great in games, but games rely on fill rate and other features. Modern graphics chips can push polygons just fine, but they stumble on filling pixels at high res and doing all the fancy effects.

Seriously though, DirectX for DCC is a joke, don't try it, don't even go in thinking just because your video card performs great at DirectX that makes it ok to use it in a DCC application.

KLuma

11-10-2004, 04:24 PM

I have to disagree somewhat. 3ds Max's last few versions having been pushing Direct x's power. They have written a lot into Max to be able to take advantages of such things, so as far as direct x being soley for games, I have to disagree. Not to mention the latest partnering of Discreet and ATI, to be able to utilize this even more. Although I do agree, that these are primarily gaming cards, I believe their power can be harnessed for CAD/CAM programs as well. I've worked at a few companies that have invested in these sort of cards for workstations, due to the great performance that can be acheived with them. I'm just not sure why, with this card, it's been difficult to get set up properly. My only guess would be that until it's out there a little bit longer, and more drivers are available, this might continue to be an issue. Some of the GeForce cards weren't that great with these programs until the detonator drivers came out.

Kevin

Karter

11-10-2004, 10:09 PM

Vertizor:

At this point in time, though only slightly, DirectX has an overall better level of performance in 3ds Max due to the developers focusing on this API specifically so consumer 3D cards could be utilized for workstations. This applications is, after all, one of the most widely used apps in the game industry.

Obviously you are not the pinnacle of knowledge you think you are, so rethink your position on the subject.

KLuma

11-10-2004, 11:52 PM

First of all, this isn't a pissing contest. We are trying to figure some things out to help resolve a problem. If you can't help be a part of the solution, then don't bother posting. This thread was originally posted in an effort to help find a way to make Max work better with a certain video card, if there is any input specifically on that, that would be great...

elvis

11-11-2004, 12:23 AM

Is this where I get to say "I told you so"?

I write a post a week on this forum telling people to not use ATi gaming cards in pro 3D apps. I wonder when people will start listening?

Yes, I know there are people who have had success. But there are an equal amount who do not. A 50% failure rate is not what I consider a risk worth taking when shelling out your hard earned dollars for hardware.

If Pro3D is your thing, stick with Nvidia, or use a professional certified card (wildcat, firegl, quadro, etc, etc, etc). Maybe I should walk the streets butt naked with that line tattooed on my arse. Maybe then people will take notice?

And to the poor soul who bought the card: you are now at the mercy of ATi's driver development team. Keep your drivers up to date, pray to your preferred god, and maybe sacrifice a few barnyard animals in the process. With enough luck, they might fix it in the next 12 months.

KLuma

11-11-2004, 01:08 AM

Amazing.... are you guys always this helpful?

Vertizor

11-11-2004, 03:09 AM

Karter:

3D Studio Max is not the only application that uses D3D for viewport rendering. I'm fully aware of the possibilities and benefits of using D3D in an application such as 3DS Max (you get to preview your DX9 shaders in real time). But the only reason why this post exists is because D3D in 3DS Max does not perform up to par. It's one thing to say "oh I heard these 2 companies are working together..." it's a completely different matter when a user is having a problem with D3D in 3DS Max. And you are telling me I'm wrong? Hey if I came off sounding like a snotty jerk I apologize. But I'm not just talking out of my ass. From TrueSpace all the way up to 3DS Max, I've seen how D3D behaves in a 3D app and I have to say "no thanks."

I'm speaking from personal experience that time and time again DirectX has failed me in some games (DX8 and later got much better more stable) and especially 3D DCC software. OpenGL on the other hand was designed specifically for professional use and it has always been more stable than D3D. They don't call it industry standard as a gimmick.

I'm not even suggesting he buys an nVidia card. I personally own an ATI X800 Pro that I use for XSI and it's doing things that I could only do with my Elsa Gloria (Quadro) back in the day. KLuma, you have the right idea: a powerful gaming card could (within reason) be used comfortably for 3D content creation. A lot of my friends swear by ATI chips, but they prefer to get ATI brand cards rather than from a third party - Sapphire in your case.

Have you changed any D3D settings in the Display Properties? Or maybe you should? I really don't know, I have an ATI X800 Pro myself, and it DOES rock in 3D apps. It works fine in Maya PLE and XSI for me so far. If Discreet has a message board that'll definitely be a good place to start asking. ATI fan forums is another place to look, although you may run into more gamers than 3D modelers.

elvis

11-11-2004, 05:05 AM

Amazing.... are you guys always this helpful?
Considering I try to tell at least a dozen people a week to stay away from ATi gaming cards, you'll have to excuse my grumpiness.

There is no fix. That's the point. We can't help you with something that there's no magic potion or silver bullet for. You've bought dud equipment despite numerous warnings. ATi Radeons are well known for their issues with 3DSMax and Maya. This forum is littered with the corpses of literally hundreds of threads about the same problems. Do I need to keep painting this picture?

Your only hope is to grab a whole bunch of old drivers and go through one by one installing and testing them. It's going to take much of your personal time and a lot of effort, but there's no other solution.

And really, no need for sarcasm when all the warning bells are there, and you still take it apon yourself to by hardware that is not recommended. What more can we do?

But don't worry. I'll be having this same discussion in 7 days time when the next one comes along.

Horses for courses. I don't play games on Quadros, and I don't model with Radeons.

Vertizor

11-11-2004, 03:21 PM

But ATI gaming cards can be decent. My last post ended up being the last one for the previous page so I don't know if it'll get noticed. But anyways, I'll try Gmax, I'll try the 3DS 30-day trial and see if I have the same issues. I have an ATI brand X800 Pro. Maybe your problem stems from the fact that it's a third party card. Personally I still think it's a D3D issue so I guess I'll just have to see for myself.

elvis

11-12-2004, 03:20 AM

But ATI gaming cards can be decent.

Exactly. They "can be". But they aren't 100%.

I don't gamble with my hardware. If 50% of people have bad experiences with ATi gaming cards under Pro3D, then I'm not going to buy them. Congratulations if you are one of the lucky 50% with no problems. That still doesn't help the poor soul who bought a Radeon and can't get it working.

If a company has a 100% success rate with hardware compatability (excluding the obvious DOA hardware failures) then I'll purchase that hardware. Again, it does pay to use certified hardware. Alias, Discreet, SideFX, SoftImage, etc all post certified hardware on their site, and do so for a reason.

souwanaplay

11-14-2004, 12:44 PM

But ATI gaming cards can be decent. My last post ended up being the last one for the previous page so I don't know if it'll get noticed. But anyways, I'll try Gmax, I'll try the 3DS 30-day trial and see if I have the same issues. I have an ATI brand X800 Pro. Maybe your problem stems from the fact that it's a third party card. Personally I still think it's a D3D issue so I guess I'll just have to see for myself.
How come your x800 pro works on maya?
My doesnt work properly at all, especially on high quailty render shading mode, it only shows black dots on the view port.

Vertizor

11-14-2004, 08:45 PM

Well what brand is your video card? Is it an ATI brand or a third party brand like Saphire? Have you updated your drivers?

I don't know what the high quality shading mode is, I just worked in the normal shaded mode and things seem fine. Haven't done anything fancy in the viewport yet so there might be a surprise waiting for me.

I'm using Maya PLE by the way, but I doubt the viewport code is much different from the commercial versions.

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