Recruits/transfers

Lot of insinuation against the coaches of successful programs. It is not the coaches that recruits but the players of their team who is friends with other strong players influences them. If a player is strong and has a stronger potential, he always seeks out better platform to show off his skills before the window closes. I dont see any wrongdoing here. Everybody is talking about AAA here. But you must go deep into the problem to set it right. If you get stronger players from your catchment in grade 8, then work on your butt off to retain and develop them. If you neglet them, they are destined to go somewhere. It is the program in grade 8 that matters and sow seed in the minds of kids about their own school program. If they feel they dont get enough gym time, lot of practices/exhibition games/tournaments, they will be disappointed. I have seen lately lot of public schools opening their gym late hours/holidays even after season is over. That is a good sign.

Edward on one hand you are correct quite often the encouragment for a player to transfer may come from a friend or parent not necessarily a coach. To say however that coaches do have an influence in the process is not true, they do. One thing that players should recognize is that transferring to a stronger team may not be the best thing for their own personal development. Too many times to count there have been players who would have been stand outs on their original school team transfer to another program just to fade into the background.

Recruiting has been going on for ever and it will never stop. Too many players, and parents who are totally selfish and too many coaches with giant ego's.

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Recruits/transfers Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:02 pm

Coachb/ceelow75

captainchaos: It is difficult for the parents to decline what the kids want. As a parent, you would want to give what the kids want if it makes sense to you. Is it selfish? Certainly not. You got to do what is good for your kid.

Last edited by edward on Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

While you do want to do what is right for your kid, you also want to teach them morals and ethics. Giving in to a coach, and with almost every big name transfer a coach is most certainly involved, does not teach a kid loyalty or proper values in my opinion. Not stating fact, just saying that's what I believe. Let's take a player like James Lum for instance, he has done a lot for Tupper. Let's say he had transferred to one of the big names with all those other guys when he was in grade 9 or 10...would he be the same player? I don't think so.

There have been recruiting scandals where coaches have been caught, you cannot deny it is not a thing some coaches are heavily involved in.

Changing schools just for a chance to win at Basketball is a risky game. Will all of the kids who went to VC this year see the floor in grade 12? Do scouts notice a kid on the bench? As long as your team competes and plays in a few big tournaments they will get noticed and at the end of the day only one team wins. Kits has only a few kids from their catchment area on their team and look what happened to them. Loss at cities, no Provincials and if those kids stayed at their own school lower mainland basketball would be better and they'd be no worse off then they are now. Tupper has only one tranfer in Braam and they are a small school that has a good program. The kids who are good are getting looked at by colleges and through hard work and loyalty they are city champs and in the big dance. It is great to see that loyalty rewarded and if that loyalty is rewarded with a supportive school and good coaching a school will have success. As a parent I want my kids team to do well but it is the journey and the character building along the way that matters. Transfering schools and encouraging kids to tranfer schools takes the character building ot of the process and if you don't happen to win or even get a chance to play that much you have to ask yourself was it really worth it. Best of luck to all the teams at Provincials, I will be at the 'Dome for sure. I have seen a lot of games ths year and I can guarantee that we are in for a great few days next week as I honestly believe that anything can happen and ssome giants will fall.

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Recruits/transfers Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:55 pm

Very valuable comments from snaked/smitty. It takes two hands to clap. If the schools provides good coaching, gym time, lot of practices, exhibition games,tourneys before the league games, I don’t see any thing else that makes the kid to look outside his/her school.

i agree with coachb... like the saying goes, "its better to be a big fish in a small pond"

Are you serious?!! As a player in grade 9 at Vancouver College, I do not see a lot of court time. I am one of those background players that you wrote about. And I strongly prefer being a small fish within a powerful program and winning program, than a big fish in a small pond! You sound like one of those millionaire athletes who doesn't mind playing on a losing team, as long as he is making his millions (aka. many NBA players).

I would much rather be a part of something great! Yes, I could attend Point Grey or Prince of Wales and be a starter. Yes, I could have the spotlight on a crap team. Who wants to be the best player on a losing team? We have a shot at winning all the titles this year (grade 8, 9, Junior and Senior). That is what we strive for: winning. Naturally, our varsity has not won in 45 years but we have been in the final four teams 17 times since our last title. The championship will come soon. Hopefully this year.

As for players choosing to come to our school after grade 8, well, that is part of life. Get over it. VC has NEVER, not one single time, been reprimanded for actively recruiting. Granted, we have a MASSIVE advantage over public schools because the size of our Catholic catchment area and being able to accept students from a vast geographical area. But public schools like Yale, Pitt, Kits, Oak Bay, Palmer, etc have all had far worse allegations levied against them in recent years. And I concede that WRCA and St. George's give all private schools a bad name because of their habit of paying athletes to attend their school ($40,000 to $80,000 in tuition subsidies per player).

i agree with coachb... like the saying goes, "its better to be a big fish in a small pond"

Are you serious?!! As a player in grade 9 at Vancouver College, I do not see a lot of court time. I am one of those background players that you wrote about. And I strongly prefer being a small fish within a powerful program and winning program, than a big fish in a small pond! You sound like one of those millionaire athletes who doesn't mind playing on a losing team, as long as he is making his millions (aka. many NBA players).

I would much rather be a part of something great! Yes, I could attend Point Grey or Prince of Wales and be a starter. Yes, I could have the spotlight on a crap team. Who wants to be the best player on a losing team? We have a shot at winning all the titles this year (grade 8, 9, Junior and Senior). That is what we strive for: winning. Naturally, our varsity has not won in 45 years but we have been in the final four teams 17 times since our last title. The championship will come soon. Hopefully this year.

As for players choosing to come to our school after grade 8, well, that is part of life. Get over it. VC has NEVER, not one single time, been reprimanded for actively recruiting. Granted, we have a MASSIVE advantage over public schools because the size of our Catholic catchment area and being able to accept students from a vast geographical area. But public schools like Yale, Pitt, Kits, Oak Bay, Palmer, etc have all had far worse allegations levied against them in recent years. And I concede that WRCA and St. George's give all private schools a bad name because of their habit of paying athletes to attend their school ($40,000 to $80,000 in tuition subsidies per player).

I think you can make your point without pretending to be a Grade 9 (14 or 15?) year old kid.

Snaked, you may have made a poor choice in choosing James Lum as an example. Didn't James Lum transfer to Killarney for a while at the start of his Grade 10 year before transferring back to Charles Tupper? So much for loyalty to his Coach and School. Maybe Lum transfered back to Tupper because he probably realized that the Coach, the basketball program, the other players, the School, the academic opportunities, the students, his friends, the environment and/or whatever other factors he considered were on balance better at Tupper. In the end, James probably did what he thought was best for himself, which is the main thing he and others should consider.

For most of the players that transfer, I don't think morals, ethics, loyalty, and proper values have much or should have anything to do with it. As for character building and the journey, taking on the challenges of transferring schools may be more applicable. For Grade 8, public schools just happen to mainly have students from their catchment area. In Grade 7, how many of these students or their parents have much of a clue if this highschool has the programs and opportunities that are the best for them - they figure it out and educate themselves once they have been there for a while. Whether it be for academic programs and opportunities, other special programs (music, acting, automotive, hairdressing, cheer leading or whatever) and any sports programs, should not all students and their parents have the right to choose and be encouraged to transfer to any other school if they feel that is in their best interests. For academic and other programs, highschools, colleges, universities and other organizations (including out of province and out of country) actively recruit and no one has any objections. We are proud of our Hollywood stars, international sports stars and academics who attend places like Harvard or Oxford, and we don't question their loyalty, morals, ethics and character. Why do some of you think it should be different for highschool sports and especially basketball? Maybe many of the transfer players and their parents are selfish and rightly so - that is one of the things that makes this democratic country so great - the opportunities to pursue your dreams and goals if you were born with the attributes for and are willing to work hard at whatever endeavor you choose. We should be questioning the selfishness of administrators, schools, athletic directors, coaches and what I would call "politically correct" persons who would deny students opportunities or think they should be loyal to the school, team and coach in their catchment areas. How many of these schools and people are loyal or indifferent to some of their student athletes by offering limited or crappy sports programs? Often it is not their fault because enough gifted athletes at a particular sport just did not happen to attend their school that year or for many years. But if that is the reality and if a student transfers as a result, let's just all accept it without complaint.

Yes, there is no denying some coaches and others violate the BC School Sports recruiting rules and I do not support this. But other coaches including some at the basketball powerhouses for ethical, moral and selfish (don't want to be sanctioned) reasons go out of their way to avoid even the appearance of recruiting. The fact is if you have a good basketball program, you don't have to recruit. The players and their parents will gravitate to your school. And if a player transfers and is allowed to play within the rules set by BC school Sports and the School District, would it in most cases be moral and ethical for an administrator or coach to deny them the oppurtunity to try out and play if they have the necessary talent, character and work habits?

Let's look at the current reality for AAA Boys' Basketball. At least 11 of the top 17 seeds at the 2010 AAA Provincial Champoinships have at least 1 transfer player (Yale has 3) that is a starter and the overwhelming majority of them are key players. You only need 2 or 3 very good players on a team to be a contender (WRCA is a good example - Eli Mara and Riley Barker and a bunch of hard working role players). Without their transfer players, it is questionable if Yale (#1 seed), Pitt Meadows(#4), Argyle(#6), Terry Fox(#9), Dover Bay(#10), Charles Tupper(#11), Burnaby South(#13) and Clayton Heights(#15) would be at the Provincials. South Kamloops(#7) and Carson Graham(#16) may have made it without their transfers. Vancouver College(#2) and White Rock Christian (#3) would have made it without their transfer players. I do not know if Oak Bay(#5), Byrne Creek(#"8"), Walnut Grove(#14) or Cowichan(#17) have transfer players.

It may be "better to be a big fish in a small pond" than a "small fish in a big pond". But for many of the transfer players, including the majority of them on the teams at the Provincials (and some teams not there), it is way better to be a "big fish in a big pond".

Smitty, I agree with you that changing schools is a risky game and some transfers have been burned. At the same time staying at the existing school and not transferring before Grade 10 can be very risky. No one can anticipate everything that will happen or change in the future including other transfers, changes in coaches, adminstrators/athletic directors/coaches and on and on. That's life! People make choices based on what they know and evaluate at the time and then have to live with their decisions. At least these transfer players and their parents have thought about what may be best for them. Without too much thought, other student athletes just accept the current or probable future situation and then have to deal with their fate when it is too late to transfer. Kitsilano is a poor example for why kids should not transfer schools. 2010 was an anonomly. When were the last times Kits did not win the City Championship or go to the Provincials? Many of the Kits transfer players got to play with better players, against better teams, in more games and tournaments, and got more recognition than they would have at their previous schools. At how many schools do kids get the opportunity to play in a few big tournaments? Tupper may be a small school with a good program and coaching but don't credit hard work and loyalty as the reasons they won the Cities and are going to the Provincials for the first time in school history. I'm sure in previous years Tupper players were just as hard woking and loyal, and haven't they had the same Coach for years? Smitty, the factors you noted are often necessary for but no guarantee of success. I think Tupper's successes this year are mainly due to random circumstances that happened to occur at the same time (the basketball gods have favoured Tupper the past few years). First, how often does a quality player like James Lum come along (and loyalty was probably not much of a factor in his case as I noted above)? Second, isn't Warren Liang the first really good, maybe only, player over 6' that Tupper has had in many years? Third, when was the last time, if ever, a top player like Michael Braam transferred from a perennial AAA basketball powerhouse (Kits) to a small AA size school (and hasn't the lack of "loyalty", by your definition, in his case rewarded Tupper). You said "Tupper only has one transfer in Braam" like this is of little consequence, and maybe we are all supposed to believe that Tupper is a shining example of what schools without transfer players can accomplish. Would you feel the same if someone said Pitt Meadows (Mike Lewendowski), Argyle (Jesse Jeffers), Terry Fox (Mac Roth) or Dover Bay (Ted Neilson) "only has one transfer"? The truth of the matter is, it is only one transfer that can make the difference.

Well thought out response. Interested to know what you think about new tier proposed for AAA to deal with transfers.

Also interested in your statement "Vancouver College(#2) and White Rock Christian (#3) would have made it without their transfer players". Another poster accuses VC of recruiting and that their lack of success is sympton of their poor coaching.

Who are VC transfer players? I thought their team was all players that have been there since at least Grade 8, some even longer.

Reiner Theil comes to mind. His transfering last season won them the junior boys title. He's a solid contributor to their team this season. And I believe there is one or two more transfers from the grade 11s on the team. Name escapes me. Next season they'll have more given the 3 grade 10s that transferee their this past Summer.

Underdog, qiute the response with some valid points but I still think that smaller programs if run well can give the kids the coaching and exposure that they need. Only one team wins and i agree that most good programs benefits from tranfers. I think you don't give Tupper enough credit for the year they have had. They played 13 of the top 15 ranked teams and won two tournaments and have one of the best high school coaches in the country who is tireless in his efforts on behalf of the kids, getting them into marquee tournaments (Legal Beagle, NSIT, Emerald etc.). As far as a historical lack of height, that won't be sa problem for the next few years as they have gone from a school with few players over 6 feet to having a kid who is almost 7 feet. Maybe i am just a sucker for a good story but having a school like Tupper that had no real program just 6 or 7 years ago to having one of the best in the province is testimony to what can be done if good kids don't leave and a good coach gets support from te administration. Same can be said fro Brit wjo should go |AAA next year. Great post, I like hearing your take on things and you obviously no the game and how things work in high school hoops. See you at the Agrodome!

Reiner Theil comes to mind. His transfering last season won them the junior boys title. He's a solid contributor to their team this season. And I believe there is one or two more transfers from the grade 11s on the team. Name escapes me. Next season they'll have more given the 3 grade 10s that transferee their this past Summer.

Here is a link to VC's basketball rosters in 2007. In 2007 the Grade 8 team, now in Grade 11, won provincials. The Grade 9 team, now in Grade 12, came in third. Also in 2007, the grade 10 team, also won provincials.

http://vc.bc.ca/student_activities/sports/BballRoster.htm

Going over the 2007 rosters and comparing them to VC's current senior roster, you will see that Thiel is the only transfer. All the players on the current senior roster can be found on the 2007 grade 8 and 9 teams. They have all been at VC since Grade 8. Some, since grade 1!

This makes it hard to understand the claims that VC's program is built on recruits or transfers.

The same grade 2007 grade 8 team then won junior provincials last year, as Grade 10's.

With the continuity in their roster, it's obvious they have a real basketball program. Add their top academic reputation, is it so hard to understand why parents / kids may want to transfer there?

Thiel's case illustrates some of the reasons for transfers well. He went to VC in grade 10 from West Vancouver. At West Van, the school had dropped it's Grade 9 and 10 basketball teams and their senior coach quit coaching. West Van's football program also struggled to field enough players and the reality is that they finished at the bottom of their league in both sports. On the other hand, at VC, Thiel went to the Junior Provincials for basketball and received the MVP and also went to the semi's of the Senior Bowl for football and was recognized as a Provincial all star.

So the kid was an athlete stuck in a program without development and coaching. Is it fair to characterize someone in that type of situation as lacking morals, ethics or loyalty? Or put another way: Is it better to be a big fish in a big pond or a big fish without a pond?

The athletes are what is important here. We should expect them and everyone else to play by the rules when it comes to transfers. However, we should not fault them or falsely malign the programs to which they are attracted, when their needs are not being met where they are.

Reiner Theil comes to mind. His transfering last season won them the junior boys title. He's a solid contributor to their team this season. And I believe there is one or two more transfers from the grade 11s on the team. Name escapes me. Next season they'll have more given the 3 grade 10s that transferee their this past Summer.

Here is a link to VC's basketball rosters in 2007. In 2007 the Grade 8 team, now in Grade 11, won provincials. The Grade 9 team, now in Grade 12, came in third. Also in 2007, the grade 10 team, also won provincials.

http://vc.bc.ca/student_activities/sports/BballRoster.htm

Going over the 2007 rosters and comparing them to VC's current senior roster, you will see that Thiel is the only transfer. All the players on the current senior roster can be found on the 2007 grade 8 and 9 teams. They have all been at VC since Grade 8. Some, since grade 1!

This makes it hard to understand the claims that VC's program is built on recruits or transfers.

The same grade 2007 grade 8 team then won junior provincials last year, as Grade 10's.

With the continuity in their roster, it's obvious they have a real basketball program. Add their top academic reputation, is it so hard to understand why parents / kids may want to transfer there?

Thiel's case illustrates some of the reasons for transfers well. He went to VC in grade 10 from West Vancouver. At West Van, the school had dropped it's Grade 9 and 10 basketball teams and their senior coach quit coaching. West Van's football program also struggled to field enough players and the reality is that they finished at the bottom of their league in both sports. On the other hand, at VC, Thiel went to the Junior Provincials for basketball and received the MVP and also went to the semi's of the Senior Bowl for football and was recognized as a Provincial all star.

So the kid was an athlete stuck in a program without development and coaching. Is it fair to characterize someone in that type of situation as lacking morals, ethics or loyalty? Or put another way: Is it better to be a big fish in a big pond or a big fish without a pond?

The athletes are what is important here. We should expect them and everyone else to play by the rules when it comes to transfers. However, we should not fault them or falsely malign the programs to which they are attracted, when their needs are not being met where they are.

First off, it doesn't take a rocketscientist to know that:

hoopdreams12 = truth

What do you say next year when your team does have 3 or more recruits/transfers? Like Cole Penman, Kyle Holden, Reiner Theil, etc?

Recruiting doesn't necessarily mean only recruiting high school kids. There are always Vancouver College personnel on hand at elementary championships and u13 club championships. Recruting can happen in grade 7 as well. Vancouver College isn't the only private school there so I will leave it at that but only name Vancouver College since you are the Senior Boys head coach and seem to have time for this discussion while the Provincials are next week. Best of luck coach.

What do you say next year when your team does have 3 or more recruits/transfers? Like Cole Penman, Kyle Holden, Reiner Theil, etc?

Recruiting doesn't necessarily mean only recruiting high school kids. There are always Vancouver College personnel on hand at elementary championships and u13 club championships. Recruting can happen in grade 7 as well. Vancouver College isn't the only private school there so I will leave it at that but only name Vancouver College since you are the Senior Boys head coach and seem to have time for this discussion while the Provincials are next week. Best of luck coach.

For the record I am not hoopdreams12 or a coach.

Is it so inconceivable that more than one person might share a view opposite to yours?

I know that it is difficult when ugly things like facts get in the way of lies and misinformation that some like to present here. It is then that the truly desperate resort to even more ridiculous allegations and personal attacks.

What do you say next year when your team does have 3 or more recruits/transfers? Like Cole Penman, Kyle Holden, Reiner Theil, etc?

Recruiting doesn't necessarily mean only recruiting high school kids. There are always Vancouver College personnel on hand at elementary championships and u13 club championships. Recruting can happen in grade 7 as well. Vancouver College isn't the only private school there so I will leave it at that but only name Vancouver College since you are the Senior Boys head coach and seem to have time for this discussion while the Provincials are next week. Best of luck coach.

For the record I am not hoopdreams12 or a coach.

Is it so inconceivable that more than one person might share a view opposite to yours?

Is it coincidence that you share the same writing style as hoopdreams12 and just happened to open a new account to support the thoughts and expressions of hoopdreams12? Most likely not.I know that it is difficult when ugly things like facts get in the way of lies and misinformation that some like to present here. It is then that the truly desperate resort to even more ridiculous allegations and personal attacks.

Is it coincidence that you share the same writing style as hoopdreams12 and just happened to open a new account to support the thoughts and expressions of hoopdreams12? Most likely not.I know that it is difficult when ugly things like facts get in the way of lies and misinformation that some like to present here. It is then that the truly desperate resort to even more ridiculous allegations and personal attacks.

So aside from being an expert on all things basketball at all schools, you are also an expert on writing styles.

All 8 of these teams had transfer players that played minutes. On at least 6 and maybe 7 of these teams, one or more of the transfers were starters and key players. On the other 1 or 2 teams, the transfers were (at a minimum) contributors.

Yale benefitted the most with at least 3 transfers that were starters (including 2 members of the U17 Provincial Team this past summer). As many of us predicted before the season started, it is no surprise that the Lions ended up on top of the heap. The only surprising thing is how close their games were against Terry Fox, Pitt Meadows and WRC.

#2 White Rock Christian - Alex Dix (Delta). If there are others, I am not aware of them.

#3 Vancouver College - Reiner Theil (West Vancouver)

#4 Pitt Meadows - Mike Lewandowski (Kelowna Secondary), Malcolm Williams? (according to the Basketball BC U16 Team List, his home town is Maple Ridge). If there are others, I am not aware of them.

#5 Terry Fox - Mac Roth (Riverside). If there are others, I am not aware of them.

#6 Charles Tupper - Michael Braam (Kitsilano)

#7 South Kamloops - Tim Brunn (some high school in Prince George). If there are others, I am not aware of them.

#8 Burnaby South - Nick Irvine (Burnaby Central), Manroop Clair (Sullivan Heights). There was at least one other transfer but he did not play at the Provincials. If there are other transfers, I am not aware of them.

I think basketball was the main reason for most of the above transfers and in at least one case (Reiner Theil) also for football. I am not sure about Michael Braam (why would he leave Kits if basketball was the main reason?) and Tim Brunn.

For White Rock Christian - Sean Keane was at Holy Cross last year. I know he is not that good, but he did play some minutes.

For Fox doesnt MacDonald live in Port Moody?

I believe that Malcolm Williams was suppose to go to Garibaldi or Westside and Josh Wolfem and David Wagner are Sahali, Spring Valley or Westsyde (one of those schools)

Burnaby South has more than 2 transfers, but they all transfered over before their Junior year, so that is why not too many people know about them. They all play for the Burnaby Eagles Basketball Club

As for Vancouver College, it is not this year's recruits that everyone is worried about, it is the Junior Team that has at least 5 recruits. 2 from Hugh Boyd, 1 from Magee, 1 from Sutherland and 1 from Burnett. The funny thing is that I find it a coincidence (wink, wink) that all of those transers occurred when Bill Disbrow became a Co-Coach, soon to be the Head Coach. All of those tranfers are all DRIVE players, Pasha = Disbrow (coincidence or calculated).

All the kids know, but for those that are not in the KNOW, the following clubs have affiliation to the following schools

Coaches might think it over if one of their players say they want to play for these club teams or play in these open gyms.

Bottom line is if coaches want to keep their players they need to start their own club team made up of their own players and coach basketball year round, like they did in the past.

So did I open a can of worms????

GuestGuest

Subject: Re: Recruits/transfers Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:20 pm

Coach wrote:

As for Vancouver College, it is not this year's recruits that everyone is worried about, it is the Junior Team that has at least 5 recruits. 2 from Hugh Boyd, 1 from Magee, 1 from Sutherland and 1 from Burnett. The funny thing is that I find it a coincidence (wink, wink) that all of those transers occurred when Bill Disbrow became a Co-Coach, soon to be the Head Coach. All of those tranfers are all DRIVE players, Pasha = Disbrow (coincidence or calculated).

All the kids know, but for those that are not in the KNOW, the following clubs have affiliation to the following schools

DRIVE = VC (used to be Saints but Brian Lee stepped down)

You better check your facts abt Drive thoroughly before writing. Except one player(Abu),nobody went to VC from Drive. VC's transfer players are all from BBC and another player from Drive(manroop) went to BBY south. So where is the connection?