I don't mean to tear the lights off your Jesus, submitter, but Barack Obama is NOT a liberal. In fact, "liberals" have very little representation in the US congress. There's far right, right, and centrist.

albo:he has one of the most, if not the most, liberal voting records in the senate

Of course he does. Especially when you gauge which votes are more liberal according to how liberal it makes Obama look. Every Democratic candidate is the most liberal one- I wonder why that would be? I'm sure it has nothing to do with political expediency.

Obama is hardly "liberal" in any sense other than that he's slightly less hardcore authoritarian than most Republicans. Look at it this way: if he were truly 'liberal' in the sense of a far left socialist, we would expect the following from his presidency:

-end to the war on drugs-eliminate the USA PATRIOT Act-no more troops in Iraq-universal single-payer health insurance-higher taxes and an end of deficits-end to corporate personhood-tax commodities speculation-huge cuts to military spending

Sorry, I don't see any of these things occurring under Mr. Obama. Instead, we'll get more money tossed to corporations and the the same foreign policy that we've had for almost 50 years. I'd be glad to see him veer left on some of these issues, but unfortunately he has not given me much hope. His candidacy is based on a centrist platform combined with a stated willingness to find compromise with far-right Republicans.

Shaggy_C:-end to the war on drugs-eliminate the USA PATRIOT Act-no more troops in Iraq-universal single-payer health insurance-higher taxes and an end of deficits-end to corporate personhood-tax commodities speculation-huge cuts to military spending

Okay, let's not use the "no true scotsman" fallacy here--such as obama is not liberal where compared to a standard that is clearly far-left, just as conservatism should not be judged by a standard established by john birchers.

Whether someone is liberal or conservative is, of course, affected by where you or your standard is on the political continuum. But for for debate's purposes, we should use a standard that reflects how politics and policy are done in the US right now. And by that, more moderate standard, Obama is indeed more liberal than most of his Senate colleagues.

You know, in general, I don't mind the flame bait headlines since they provoke discussion but this desperation to make the PITA fair and balanced is getting annoying. Fark is making the same mistake that the MSM did in trying to prevent both "sides" of an issue equally. It assumes a bipolar reality that has nothing to do with real world events. I am deeply saddened to see fark descend to the level of CNN.

When nobody thought Obama had a shot all they said was "he is nothing but an inexperienced politician who will say/do anything to get elected."

And the Democratic majority in the 110th Congress? A bunch of lying, retarded, "do-nothing" politicians that couldn't accomplish anything if they tried.

Now that it looks like Obama might win, it's turned into "he's really the most liberal man to walk to Earth and he's the vanguard for socialism in America."

And those same Democrats in Congress now? They are a well-oiled, well-funded political machine bent on the destruction of America and will serve as the LEFT arm of Barack Obama's socialistic take over of America.

Obama is a lot of things, including a politician, but he's not a socialist. Anyone who thinks he's going to veer hard to the left, after (potentially) taking office in a couple months, and blow any chance he has at re-election in 4 years is truly naive.

And anyone who thinks Pelosi and the congressional Democrats have the wherewithal to pull off "The 100 Day Plan2: Socialistic Boogaloo," is drinking massive amounts of Kool Aid. (Otherwise Nancy Pelosi is the world's biggest and most talented "sand-bagger." Evar.)

albo:But for for debate's purposes, we should use a standard that reflects how politics and policy are done in the US right now. And by that, more moderate standard, Obama is indeed more liberal than most of his Senate colleagues.

It's not a 'more moderate' standard, you're talking about comparing protofascists and calling one liberal and another conservative when they're essentially the exact same thing.

There's more of a divide between Mr. McCain and Fred Thompson than there is between Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama.

albo:quickdraw: You know, in general, I don't mind the flame bait headlines since they provoke discussion but this desperation to make the PITA fair and balanced is getting annoying

this is fark. every political headline should be flame bait to someone. chill

No, not every headline needs to be flamebait. It just needs to provoke discussion. You don't need binary polarization to discuss an issue. Shades of grey provoke considerably more discussion than the same tedious polarization that passes for discourse in the MSM.

thurilok:I don't mean to tear the lights off your Jesus, submitter, but Barack Obama is NOT a liberal. In fact, "liberals" have very little representation in the US congress. There's far right, right, and centrist.

That right there, yeah.

So of course those of us to the left plan to keep the pressure up after the election is over.

First order of business, waking up to a world where "liberal!!!" isn't an epithet, and we don't need to run cringing and cowering because some blowhards say something is "socialist" or "marxist" or whatever the taunt du jour is when a proposal is a hair or two to the left of Reagan.

At least, I HOPE the government grows a collective (heh) pair and stands up to the BS, I will certainly be pushing that way. The mood has changed - people are saying NO to the "common wisdom" of the last decade or two.

Shaggy_C:Sorry, I don't see any of these things occurring under Mr. Obama. Instead, we'll get more money tossed to corporations and the the same foreign policy that we've had for almost 50 years. I'd be glad to see him veer left on some of these issues, but unfortunately he has not given me much hope. His candidacy is based on a centrist platform combined with a stated willingness to find compromise with far-right Republicans.

Sadly, yeah, pretty much.

But, that's why it's not so earth-shatteringly amazing to discover that people who supported him, while possibly holding their noses a bit, intend to push him leftward after January.

This last week has been fun, if for nothing else the constant stream of terror from far-righters that they're going to be rounded up into camps while Zombie Lenin rears his head over Alaska on Wednesday.

thurilok:I don't mean to tear the lights off your Jesus, submitter, but Barack Obama is NOT a liberal. In fact, "liberals" have very little representation in the US congress. There's far right, right, and centrist.

thurilok:I don't mean to tear the lights off your Jesus, submitter, but Barack Obama is NOT a liberal. In fact, "liberals" have very little representation in the US congress. There's far right, right, and centrist.

That viewpoint would depend on your own position on the spectrum. No doubt Karl Marx would see it that way.