New York Court Order Concludes Gun Permit Insufficient Cause for Car Search

U.S.A. – -(Ammoland.com)- An out of state concealed carry permit does not establish sufficient cause to warrant a car search for firearms, a New York judge’s Decision and Order decided Wednesday. Further, the opinion concludes the sworn testimony of the officers involved is not borne out by police video camera and microphone evidence, and a recording from a defendant’s cell phone.

“The Court does not find that the search of the Defendant's car was justified in any manner and accordingly grants the Defendant's motion and suppresses any evidence obtained from the search of the Defendant's car,” George E. Fufidio, Judge of the Westchester County Court wrote. That’s a significant opinion benefiting not just the defendant in the case of THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK -against- JONATHAN ROSE, Defendant, but for gun owners who find themselves in a similar situation.

Rose was charged with “class C violent felonies of Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Second Degree (two counts), Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Third Degree (three counts), Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Fourth Degree (four counts) and a violation of New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law Section 402.”

“It is alleged that the defendant possessed two loaded and operable semi-automatic pistols, three large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and various Kung Fu stars and metal knuckles,” the court document recounts. “These items were found pursuant to a search of the defendant's motor vehicle by the Rye City Police after a traffic stop on May 5, 2017.

The search resulted after Rose, who had recently moved to New York, “inadvertently” handed over “a valid Grand County Colorado concealed handgun permit” along with “a valid Colorado driver's license [and] a valid New York identification card” while looking for his vehicle registration after being pulled over for a missing front license plate.

That this is even an issue highlights the need for reciprocity, something principled die-hards are still pushing for while Swamp Republicans do their best to let it (along with dangled but never pushed for hearing protection) die. They (intentionally) blew their chance when they had the power, and once the Democrats take over the House, watch the Establishment GOP join in giving them a “red flag” victory, instead.

Per the opinion, the officer “asked the Defendant if he had a gun in the car [and] the Defendant said that he did not…”

That makes it look like Rose was lying. But that conclusion is not borne out by a transcript of the exchange:

An important distinction needs to be made here: Since no gun was found in the “pat down,” Rose gave a truthful answer. He did not have a handgun on him.

Statements that don’t line up with the truth are the ones coloring the charges against Rose. It’s surprising Judge Fufidio missed this point, but it appears the disinformation came from Westchester County Assistant District Attorney Kevin Jones, who in his Affirmation in Opposition to Rose’s motions asserted:

“The officer then asked the defendant if he had any guns in the car…”

Since Jones had all recordings, transcripts, and reports, as well as access to officers both in and out of court, it is difficult to imagine a reason he would misrepresent what happened and not conclude his allegations were deliberate and calculated.

In addition to a prosecutor apparently playing fast and loose, we see sworn statements by officers that are contradicted by video and audio evidence. Regardless of how one feels about guns, these deviations from the whole truth ought to result in unified agreement that this is intolerable and incompatible with rule of law.

What’s to be done about that?

It will be interesting to see what happens next in this case now that a judge has ruled that evidence obtained from the car search must be suppressed. Perhaps Second Amendment groups have been keeping their distance because of the “on you” misinterpretation. If so, that’s too bad because the judge’s opinion can profoundly affect their members. It's in their interest to help, and the following character reference ought to help persuade them not to be put off by official misrepresentations coming out of New York:

In any case, Rose has established a Go Fund Me page to help with legal expenses against a state that has unlimited resources — and his page includes a communication link for those wanting to reach out to him and find out more.

It’s important that more gun owners find out about this case and use what influence they can to solicit financial support from Second Amendment groups. That’s especially true since Rose tells me “the District Attorney's office has said they will appeal the ruling.”

David Codrea is the winner of multiple journalist awards for investigating / defending the RKBA and a long-time gun owner rights advocate who defiantly challenges the folly of citizen disarmament. He blogs at “The War on Guns: Notes from the Resistance,” and posts on Twitter: @dcodrea and Facebook.

Moses, wow, that was some amazingly, shocking footage. Those officers were way out of line. I also noticed that some of the footage was more than several years old. So, I wonder how frequent this actually occurs, percentage-wise. I am not condoning the behavior, but considering how many officers there are in the USA, it would not be surprising that there are “a few bad apples”.

I have had friends that became officers, officers that I was friends with, and a relative that was a LEO. Also, the handful of times I interacted with officers in their official capacities, a couple of traffic tickets as a young adult, a couple of auto accidents, and property damage and trespassing complaints regarding my private property, I haven’t experienced that type of behavior.

I think there are 2 also. That would explain what happened a week or two ago. I must have been responding to the other Ron, and that made you think I was responding to you. Maybe you should go by Ron1, and the other Ron, Ron2.

The ay i read the officers statement tells me he knew the man had a permit to carry a firearm so he mislead the drivers as to whether he had a gun in the car then on his person by probably using his voice to make the person give a misleading answer.

Or could you be the one uninformed? I actually read a few other articles that said the same, as well as this man’s account on his go fund me account, as well as a letter from his former Colorado sheriff, who he worked closely with on a search and rescue team. I am also from NY originally and have watched them become a socialist hellhole from a distance. I am much more inclined to believe his account than your unsubstantuated comment.

Back up your claims it you are going to make them. Gun banners, prosecutors, media types, and crooked cops are used to being able to lie and not have to prove it, but you cannot get away with that here. Either back up your claims of admit that you are wrong.

He presented his CCL from another state. Cop asked if he had a gun on him (cop will never ask that the same way) and decided to search.

His having the gun in the car was HARDLY the issue since he did not have a NY CHL which would have listed every handgun he owns (by MFG and Ser #). He is fortunate that the judge suppressed the search evidence. Good luck getting his stuff BACK legally in Rye. His BEST bet to get the items back is to have a Gun Shop Owner retrieve them from the Rye police and either hold them for him OR ship them to Colorado where he’s legal. He hasn’t lived in NY long enough to qualify for a NY CHL, though I gotta figger that they have SOME adjustment available for people moving in. I dunno how he’s going to get the 3 signatures as references for the NY CHL permit. The process takes SEVERAL months before he could get either a purchase permit (NOT what he needs) or a Carry Permit.

There are currently 13 States in which a permit is not required, and therefore no record of firearm ownership is maintained by the State. If I drive to NY, etc. in my MS tag car, they can run the plate till hell freezes over and they will get zip info. So would the NYSP search me and my car simply because I’m a resident of MS? Probably. That’s what tyrants do.

If you have an out of state licence plate in New York, your chances of being pulled over increase by at least 50%. The state is broke and cops are told those out of staters are travelling cash registers. Really. Why people choose to live there is beyond me. Highest taxed state in the nation. Corrupt to the core governor. Collapsing infrastructure. Anti small business. Anti 2nd Amendment. I was lucky and got out of there. If you have to go there, remember, that plate makes you a target. Be smart! They don’t care if you’re a good guy or lady. $$$$$!

GunnyGene, many states do not register firearms with or without CC permits/licenses. For example, in my state, Virginia, the only record of what one might own is at the FFL dealer (Form 4473), if you bought your firearms from an FFL dealer. The state does not get a copy of that.

Let’s put some more fuel on this fire of Law Enforcement over stepping and then falsifying sworn testimony.
Per several statutes in New York State law, the hand gun is the only firearm allowed to be carried, or transported,
loaded, in or on, a vehicle, as vehicle is defined in several and various statutes of New York State law.
Hunting laws, Big Game, Small Game, Varmint, and Waterfowl regulations prohibit any and all firearms, except
handguns, be transported empty in chamber and magazine, in any and all defined motor vehicles.

Ok…so the plate could have fallen off etc. I agree with the article but he was still ‘stupid’! You don’t care what the law states? Then talk tough and get yer backside’s locked up. There are a lotta laws we don’t agree with.
So, go break em. I guarantee you’ll stick your tail’s between your legs and won’t be so cocky as ya are here.

So, you agree with the Fascist Left view that it is OK to break the law if you are ANTIFA, The Women’s March, or other pro-Democrat organizations but not if you’re a Conservative or a gun owner, how wonderful.
I don’t know if Rose intended to do this (remember, intent is why they let Hillary ride) of if he was brilliant enough to pick up on the way he was asked, there was still insufficient probable cause to search the car. Unlike recognizing the smell of marijuana or other drugs, it is apparent that the police didn’t indicate they smelled guns and ninja throwing stars or high-capacity magazines, and I don’t care, Rose’s rights were violated by the search. Calling him “stupid” is an ignorant reaction here.

good on this judge. He did what he SHOULD have done, for a change, rather than sell out to the system.

This judge declared, as part of hjis ruling that the testimony of the coppers, and the paperwork of the prosecutor, were not borne out by the audio and video recordings he examined. This is HUGE.
It will take lawyerbux, or a good pro bono firearms law expert lawyer, to take up a case on contingency to nail all those who perjured themselves to press this case. Yes, PERJURED themselves. That is a felony. That would mean no more guns for the dirty coppers, and no more public service job for the dirty prosecutor.

WHEN will officials who LIE to gain convictions begin to pay the price for the laws THEY break? As if they are the only ones who can fabricate “evidence”……

The biblical punishment for those who “bear false witness against another” is for the liar to suffer the same penalty or loss the one falsely testified against suffered, or would have suffered had the lie been believed.
In this case, the cirty coppers and prosecutore collectivel need to restpre the lost days, financial burden and loss, all this legal costs, the value of the personal propery taken or held, all of that in dollers, THEN to serve the prison term this guy WOULD have gotten had the testimony been true. SO, what’s that, at least a year for each of the eight or ten felonies they tried hanging on this poor sap?

Yes, he should have known New York’s laws.. there ARE places to find out before you travel or move. ‘gunlawsbystate.com” is one place. I thin Cal Guns maintains a similar place, and looking over the page for the Attorney Genera;s office of any state you consider entering is also a good ides.

But.. seems he was preoccupied with the move, and getting his chidlren settled. Such a detail as “I can’t have a loaded gun in the car in this stupied state” are not Top of Mind Awareness items.

Take note… they should be.I’ve read some horror stories, particularly in California, New Yoark Massachussetts, Maryland, New Jersey, Connecticut…….

The term “police state” comes to mind when I read this and I think it applies here. NY, NJ and others have gone beyond the threshold of what is practical and makes sense. I never gave it any thought that my concealed permit would cause me to be pulled over in a “police state” but now I know enough to stay out of them and not spend any money what so ever in any of them. The like to make laws and lock up their tax paying citizens with no revenue when they get done, only full prisons. Ignorance and insanity is the true meaning of the democrat party.

Thank you David Codrea for bringing to our attention Professor James Duane’s “Don’t Talk to the Police” lecture. This is a $25,000 Christmas gift to those that are smart enough to watch all of the lecture and the VBPD cop’s discussion of how he gathers evidence.
Merry Christmas

What is a “New York identification card “? The man is a US citizen with a valid drivers license. OTOH, although he lucked out with the exact wording of the cops request, he should not have had loaded pistols while driving in the Stupid States. If he got nabbed in Jersey he would never be freed.

Everyone who has a concealed carry permit in their respective states takes a big risk when driving through communist states such as NY, IL, CA, MD, etc. inasmuch as, if an LEO in the communist state runs a check on an out-of-state license plate, it will provide information as to whether the owner possesses a CHL, which is why I don’t drive through such states.

There is a shared database that the cops can use to see if the owner of a vehicle has a CCW Permit. MD cops were doing this to FL vehicles, and stopping them specifically to look for guns if the owner was in the database. There was a lawsuit ongoing about a family they hassled for this reason. CA can see if a CA driver has an out-of-state permit. Hell, they have a DOJ website that lists how many in each county have this. My county in Silicon Valley lists about 10k Utah permits. CA doesn’t honor any other state permits of any kind.

Not so much Illinois these days. The current law reads that IF you have a valid CCW from another state that you can keep your handgun with you in the car legally. You cannot step out of the car carrying it, though. For example, getting gas. An exception is made if you are stepping out of the car for the purpose of placing the gun in the trunk while you leave the car. However, there is no exception for legally carrying the gun from the car to, for instance, a motel room where you are staying.

As I said, this article has it’s facts wrong. You are only of this opinion based on what the article is saying, but the article was written without the author doing any actual research on it and he has his facts wrong.

As I said earlier, I read about this story in more than one locations. Apparently, all the authors have it wrong. You at least say so yet have offered absolutely no proof to counter their claims. Is it possible you can’t understand why someone wouldn’t believe you? I’ve got an open mind, but I do require proof of some sort when it comes to disputes like this. I don’t always believe the media; in fact, I’ve got so I question them all the time. So provide some actual evidence.

and precisely tht HAS happened… copper sees the NRA, Smith and Wesson, Browning buck, etc, and says Hmmm.. he likes guns. So do I, especially whan a citizen has one that some techinical glitch in the paperwork says he shouldn’t. Because I like the bust and resultand Gold Star I get even more than I like guns.

A sick world when laws are used to make criminals when there is no harm, no evil intent.

Not very smart on his part. No plate..hey pull me over. Weapons? He should have known better. Much better.
When transporting a weapon in any given state, living there or passing through,know the laws.(try) They are out there to read. I do wish him well.

Some states have only a rear plate. WV is one of those. I now reside there after being told I was no longer wanted in NYS by the Governor, Andy ‘L’il Duce’ Cuomo. I was bred, born, and raised in NY, and lived, worked, played there for 54 years. I was an avid hunter, a Pistol Permitee, even tho’ such was an affront to my knowledge of the meaning of ‘infringe’. Will I be pulled over when I go back to visit family merely because I do not have a front plate on my vehicle? I decided to put one on my truck. It is a “Don’t Tread On Me” plate.

As to “know the laws,” you do comprehend plain English, right? What does infringe mean?

Oldmarine >>> 2brknot2bfree
It just so happens that the NY state and those associated with this incident has broken Federal law. This is one time that Law Enforcement screw-up. Those officers should know that they are now in liable for felony crimes against a citizen. I can readily think of at least three felonies committed by Law enforcement and that also includes Mr. Andy Cuomo. and a very serious crime that can be construed as Treason and Cohesion that has a maximum sentence of DEATH. The trouble is that most people see the law broken and can’t see it or are scared to charge a politician. The politician is a public servant and when thy break their Oath of office they also committed Perjury with serious consequences but people are either ignorant of the broken law or scared of politicians. There are a large number of the public servants are in prison because they are caught for many reason’s, mostly money but some for other crimes, even murder. When a Public servant breaks their Oath of Office they have committed a felony crime against you.and all of their constituents. It is up to us the people to have them face the law in court and we don’t have to prove anything because it will be documented or videoed. Proving Perjury of a Politician is so easy because of the documentation. In 1803 the supreme Court decided that any law that is repugnant or does not agree with the Constitution is NULL and VOID. In this case that applies in booming resonance against a lawful citizen. If I were him I would charge all concerned with crimes and let them prove they were right in doing what they did to a law-abiding citizen. Think about this “Go after the criminals who violate their Oath of Office and those who attack the Constitution and 90% of most problems will disappear.” Make your life mean something and support the Constitution. I want to die making a real contribution to the betterment of the citizens of this country. We need to protect the lawful citizens from government by using the Constitution as our guide. The Judicial and Legislative actions are out of control and the “Government by and for the people” is being abused by most politicians. We the people are the countries citizen police and we must make sure that it still remains in our control or the Republic will fail. There are plenty of powerful people ( like George Soros ) that want to destroy the US so we are the only ones that can fight him. Trump is not perfect but he fights for us the best he can. I support him in his fight and it can get ugly most of the times seeing what he is up against. Voting has very little effect, if it did they wouldn’t let you vote pus Federal voting is not done legally or morally. Is your life going to matter or just be a passing thought? Protect the Constitution.

I can’t believe that the NY authorities are acting this way against this fine gentleman. This is what happens when illegal, unconstitutional laws are left on the books. Although no one has a duty to obey or ENFORCE them, there are those who get their jollies messing up people’s lives. It’s enough to make you want to puke. I have many ancestors from the State of NY who gave their blood and treasure in the Revolutionary War, and they must be thoroughly disgusted looking down on this situation. These “Authorities” say, “Oh, but we must obey the law”, but they won’t lift a finger investigating or prosecuting those who murdered 2700 people on 9/11/01, making believe that they agree with the official story. Maybe they are on the take from Bloomberg, Lucky Larry Silverstein, and the rest of the Khazarian Mafia who wants us all disarmed and prostate.