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I'd say the same thing would extend to you as well...go roll with Dan,

That makes no sense because I haven't made any claims of martial efficacy, nor of new or secret or more efficient ways of moving. If I had, then a challenge would be quite appropriate.

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One thing is for sure, if you don't go and train with these guys...you will never now for sure...and will continue to sound like a broken record.

As of yet, there is nothing to make it worth my while that what they believe they are teaching is anything different or new. Once such people are able to use it in the venue and manner already mentioned, then I will not merely need to believe it is worth my time before I go but I will know it is worth my time.

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

As I PM'd you....if there is nothing to make it worth your while...then why spend the time here discussing it? Sounds like you have already made up your mind about this. Which would account for the few that seem to have chucked you into the troll category.

Justin wrote:

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Once such people are able to use it in the venue and manner already mentioned, then I will not merely need to believe it is worth my time before I go but I will know it is worth my time.

All I can say here is in martial arts...you have to take chances and put yourself out there a little if you want to grow.

With this logic, I would have not gone to the European BJJ Championships in January, because I had no idea if it would be worth my time....my white belt student went, spend over $1000 to go, got one match for 5 minutes...and was out of the running. So with this logic, that was a very expensive 5 minutes of his time! I was luckier as I got three matches, and one that ran over by 2.5 mintues...so I got 17.5 minutes of rolling for my $1000.00 and my vacation time for 4 days.

Anyway, I can understand your logic about making sure you are not wasting your time with posers, you know, though...everyone that is my current teacher required me to invest a little of myself out there, sometimes it was a waste of my time, other times not...there never is a guarantee.

This is why I have worked so hard to get an understanding of the endstate of my training over the past couple of months with these guys if I do meet with them, it would not be a waste of our time, or a misunderstanding.

Even before I commit a final training date/time/investment of money, I would email them and discuss over the phone our training objectives/parameters so as not to misunderstand and to make our expectations clear.

I have stated that I am not interested in static exercises, unbendable arm, or pushing on Jo staffs....they seem to initially to be okay with that. I would expect these things to be a part of that process to help guide and demonstrate...but not inclusive of our entire practice...I would want to train with some one in a non-compliant, BJJ methodology as well as it is important to me, as it sounds to you, that they be able to demonstrate proficiency..maybe not technically as a BJJer, but somewhat of an ability to transmit this training to non-compliance.

If you watch the video Rob posted...it does show this a little...so I have hope!

Hope.

Anyway, Justin, all I can say is that in order to grow and develop your own "Game", you need to take some risk and sometimes you will be let down..but more often than not, you will at least learn a little.

One has to ask themselves why no one has stepped up in such venues yet using things we cannot just classify as regular ol' external, and how much longer we in the internal community can tolerate it until we have to admit either internal strength as they envision it doesn't exist, or cannot be distinguished from regular ol external strength.

You may not have seen earlier posts noting that this aspect is just not well known in the world, has been kept pretty much under wraps by mainly Asian practitioners who want to keep the "secrets" to themselves, and that it is only just now being discussed publicly on such venues as this forum. Thus, the best way to learn what it contains is to take advantage to the few Western (and Eastern) sources that can actually show you.

It's easier to sit in an armchair and vortch about it, but let's see you actually take action to pursue the answers to your own questions, instead of simply paying lip service!

That makes no sense because I haven't made any claims of martial efficacy, nor of new or secret or more efficient ways of moving. If I had, then a challenge would be quite appropriate.

And somehow, this tapdancing is supposed to put a baffling smokescreen in front of your cowardly attacks, and convince people of your objectivity.

Justin, no amount of "cool" smileys or "cool" in your dorky moniker will ever get you anywhere near cool. It's just not going to happen for you, sorry. And again, you have no point, which is obvious to everyone. Top judoka, boxers, etc don't compete in MMA, nor would they win if they did, because everyone has to train specifically for MMA to succeed in it. That doesn't mean their skillset doesn't apply to MMA, or that there is nothing to learn from them.

You are also merely a wannabe skeptic. You don't have the intellectual horsepower for it, and more importantly, skeptics actually investigate any claims they find dubious. They aren't Internet vermin daring to snipe only because they feel safe behind their keyboard. If they don't have the opportunity (opportunity, not lack of guts or other personal qualifications) to do that they can contact someone they trust who is geographically better able to meet the subject of said claim. But wait, unbiased people from this forum, with more experience and class than you, have vouched that this stuff indeed feels different than other things in their experience. Your dismissal of their reports is yet another instance of you insulting your betters and expecting no one to notice. There is not a single person on this board who would bet a rusty nickel that you would step up yourself for any sort of unbiased investigation. You could at least arrange for someone whose objectivity you respect and who respects you (insert sounds of crickets chirping here) to investigate and report their findings. That is if anyone cares to hear a report from you. That, unfortunately, requires some level of respect for you as a precondition.

In fact, reading even another word from you is showing you far more respect than you deserve, so that's the end of our interaction. Really, given your level in character, maturity, and martial knowledge you would be a better fit for a forum where the hot discussion revolves around which color Power Ranger could defeat the others.

Signatures obviously making fun of particular members are still OK though, apparently. So which sig is better, "statistics is for dorks", "9 out of 10 statisticians are punks", etc? I am making a serious point. I could easily follow Justin around from thread to thread and be completely obnoxious while staying under the radar of not directly saying what I really think of how he conducts himself...while essentially saying it all the time. Except I have a life, and more class. Just food for thought. But no worries, I won't give him further thought or mention.

Top judoka, boxers, etc don't compete in MMA, nor would they win if they did, because everyone has to train specifically for MMA to succeed in it. That doesn't mean their skillset doesn't apply to MMA, or that there is nothing to learn from them.

Maybe not top, however, judoka, boxers, etc, do switch to compete in MMA and we see how those skill sets carry over. Thus validating that their skills are useful for one on one competition. Not that this is the argument, but it seems like a good place to point this out. If a judoka says Judo will help improve MMA fighters, we actually have evidence of this, because there are judoka competing in the UFC and Pride. However as far as I know there are no internal specialists competing at the top level of MMA, so to say internal skills will hep MMA fighters is speculation until proven.

Anyways, I"m bored with the topic. I got the answers I was looking for and have nothing else to add.

However as far as I know there are no internal specialists competing at the top level of MMA, so to say internal skills will hep MMA fighters is speculation until proven.

One thing that's always struck me...
actually let me just rip a quote from Sagawa first
" All of you only wish to learn from me. None of you desire to actually innovate on your own. So you end up only repeating what you have learned. There is no way you will improve at that rate! Even I didn’t understand how things worked when I was young. But that changed little by little. These days people think they can get better by having things spoon fed to them, and this is why they are no good."

On the odd occasion that I completely pwn some non-japanese bjjer, a lot of the times I'll get a "what are you doing, you feel different" type reaction. At which point I'm more than happy to give a couple quick demos to show what I do, and maybe point out something I think can help their game. At whcih point a bunch of the other non-japanese grapplers get up with the "damn I want to feel for myself" attitude.
Putting aside the fact that most of them quit as soon as I subject them to a couple of the basic exercises, what's funny is to watch the Japanese BJJers standing on the sidelines, arms crossed, pretending not to watch us, but watching us at the same time with "SKEPTIC" printed on their foreheads...but they never jump in. Not unless someone prods them to do so.
At least the non-japanese guys are like "show me!"

And is it any wonder that most Japanese fighters suck and are playing catchup??
Actually it doesn't apply to just Japanese fighters.
My point being is, if you wait till someone else to "proves" if it works it'll be too late.
A lot of this internal stuff requires so much self experimentation that anyone with the "well it hasn't been proven in the ring yet" attitude gets left behind.

I don't think its any coincidence that Sudo Genki ended up going to Okinawa to learn from some Uechi guys cuz he felt they had something he didn't
(Sudo Genki is considered "weird" by Japanese standards btw)

Sorry for the rant, and Don it wasn't particularly directed at you, just thought I'd put that out in the open

Maybe not top, however, judoka, boxers, etc, do switch to compete in MMA and we see how those skill sets carry over. Thus validating that their skills are useful for one on one competition. Not that this is the argument, but it seems like a good place to point this out. If a judoka says Judo will help improve MMA fighters, we actually have evidence of this, because there are judoka competing in the UFC and Pride. However as far as I know there are no internal specialists competing at the top level of MMA, so to say internal skills will hep MMA fighters is speculation until proven.

Anyways, I"m bored with the topic. I got the answers I was looking for and have nothing else to add.

Well Don, your boredom may have caused you to skim over the repeated discussion of how rare this skill is - meanwhile you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a judoka.

Well Don, your boredom may have caused you to skim over the repeated discussion of how rare this skill is - meanwhile you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a judoka.

I'm just stating a fact, rare or not. I can't say I have a method for improving brain surgery until I go perform brain surgery, or someone performs it with my method. I can say it might be good for brain surgery, or even that I think brain surgeons should look at what I'm doing. I can't however say that my method works great for brain surgery if nobody is using it from brain surgery. This has nothing to do with whether or not my technique works great for foot surgery, or even if my technique works great for brain surgery but nobody wants to try it.

Methodologies such as meditation, breathing exercises and the like would indirectly benefit a brain surgeon as it could increase his ability to control his focus, dexterity etc. I think most reasonable people could see a benefit to doing things that are not directly associated with the actual technical act of surgery.

A good brain surgeon may also be very adept at using chop sticks as well as he as developed a superior command of his CNS and muscles, dexterity etc as a side benefit of his practice.

However it would not follow that someone that meditated and did breathing exercises would know the first thing about brain surgery.

Certainly a meditation practice would be additive to his abilities, but absence of it does not necessarily imply less skill as a surgeon.

I'm just stating a fact, rare or not. I can't say I have a method for improving brain surgery until I go perform brain surgery, or someone performs it with my method. I can say it might be good for brain surgery, or even that I think brain surgeons should look at what I'm doing. I can't however say that my method works great for brain surgery if nobody is using it from brain surgery. This has nothing to do with whether or not my technique works great for foot surgery, or even if my technique works great for brain surgery but nobody wants to try it.

Well sure you can say it, it's just that nobody is obligated to believe you because it's opinion, and in this case stated as such. If something increases connection and your ability to transfer power through your body, it's not a huge leap of faith to think that hitting harder is useful. I feel that's one good use, but if someone doesn't want to believe it until they see it in the UFC, do I really care? It's either interesting or not, personal choice. I don't think anyone here is trying to "prove" anything, least of all by writing about it. It's pretty hard to do much more than share opinions on a discussion board. Anything further takes a hands-on.

We have some facts. We have the fact that this kind of movement is different. We have the fact that you can develop this kind of movement. We have the fact that you can show off this kind of movement in unique ways. We might even be close to having the fact that this kind of movement might be better for your body then raw strength (would need some studies to back this up).

We need evidence to create facts. So far I've seen "It works for me". Unfortunately that is not evidence. A lot of this thread is opinion based. For example, I have seen the ki skills of my aikido teacher. I do not find it useful for my pursuits of mma/bjj. The response to my opinion is no doubt that he does not have the real internal skills, thus I must be stupid. See, this is what happens with opinions, we can have different ones because of completely different experiences.

Unfortunately the world of martial arts is full of wishful thinking, fakes, and other issues I dare not speak of. It has reached a point where I refuse to have faith in anything marital art related. It is either proven, or it's crap. It's not that I even think this stuff is fake, however, I must remain consistent to insure safety from charlatans.

Signatures obviously making fun of particular members are still OK though, apparently. So which sig is better, "statistics is for dorks", "9 out of 10 statisticians are punks", etc? I am making a serious point.

What if I genuienly believe it is a valuable secret to Internal Strength(tm) ? If you are sensitive to sigs, I suggest you turn them off.

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I could easily follow Justin around from thread to thread and be completely obnoxious while staying under the radar of not directly saying what I really think of how he conducts himself...while essentially saying it all the time. Except I have a life, and more class. Just food for thought. But no worries, I won't give him further thought or mention.

You could 'follow me around from thread to thread', of course. This is a public bulletin board so that is obviously a right we all have, especially if ones asks you questions.

Sincerely,

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

BJ Penn, Karo Pariysan, Jeff Monson, Royce Gracie, Akebono, Dan Severn, these are only the ones off the top of my head who were/are 'top' in their field before MMA. Several competitors were in the Olympics, as well as some being state wrestling champs and the like, that is, top martial artists of their geographical area.

As mentioned, the important point is that if one is claiming to not be able to be pushed over, they should demonstrate that in a live environment (MMA is only one example).

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, skeptics actually investigate any claims they find dubious.

Actually, it is not about ones' opinion on it being dubious. I don't necessarily find the claims dubious, but interesting. If someone makes a claim that demands evidence, I'll ask for evidence. If that upsets some people, I suggest not making claims.

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, unbiased people from this forum, with more experience and class than you, have vouched that this stuff indeed feels different than other things in their experience. Your dismissal of their reports is yet another instance of you insulting your betters and expecting no one to notice.

1 anecdote is the same as 1,000 anecdotes. 1,000 people saying something is 'weird' is not as good as one person making an actual video.

The video is (more) objective; peoples' reports are often not. That doesn't mean their reports are false- it is just that we have no way of knowing. Please understand the difference.

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There is not a single person on this board who would bet a rusty nickel that you would step up yourself for any sort of unbiased investigation.

If I make claims of being unmovable or being able to use my skills for more efficient body movement, then you might have a point to ask for a test.

Sincerely,

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

You may not have seen earlier posts noting that this aspect is just not well known in the world, has been kept pretty much under wraps by mainly Asian practitioners who want to keep the "secrets" to themselves, and that it is only just now being discussed publicly on such venues as this forum.

I wonder why these "Asian practitioners" wouldn't demonstrate their skills in Pride or another MMA venue over there? What better way to make these things known to the public!

Sincerely,

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

....if there is nothing to make it worth your while...then why spend the time here discussing it?

Um, because I spend time here doing other things too, like reading?

I also practice other martial arts and disciplines. This is just one of many hobbies; not even my main one. I always hold out some hope that I'll check in, and one of these 'hey, these body tricks sure are wierd!' people will win a UFC title.

Sincerely,

Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

The difference is separating training methodology from reality. You will never see someone in the UFC outwardly demonstrating grounding or what not, or doing push hands per se, however, I'd submit that someone that was well versed in these things could transfer at least a modicum of intuitive skill from this practice and apply that knowledge.

The difference is, IMO, many cannot seem to separate methodology from actual practice and seem to mentally do a fundamentalist transfer in their minds (rationalization), that methodologies carry over to reality fundamentally!

What if I told you that I fight in BJJ tournaments and do MMA, NHB stuff using aikido, almost entirely?

I wil have to look at one of my videos posted on youtube and find the point on the clock where I have people attacking me while doing a punching drill. As I have never recieved any formal training in boxing or punching outside of aikido or karate, I would tell you that I learned 100% of my mid-range skills (ashi taiso) from aikido.

However, you'd look at it and say "that is not aikido"! Same with my ground game, I can demonstrate the concept of Ikkyo from the guard...actually I have a pretty darn good feel for it in the guard, not because of my BJJ background, but because of aikido...however, I never practiced guard in aikido!

Training methodologies are interesting to explore!

This does not mean that if someone wants to be good at BJJ that they should run out and study aikido, because aikido training is a very inefficient methodology to learn BJJ skills! There is transferrence though!

I think same with the methodologies that these guys are doing. Much can be learned and understood by doing them, just don't transfer 100%. Only inexperienced fundamentalist thinking does this huge leap!

Just like golfers that will hire yogi s and guys like Tony Robbins to help them with things like NLP, these methodologies are not designed to transfer directly to golf, but they might give them an edge.

Of course, if you are not a professional golfer, it would probably not be worth your time or money to spend hiring a Tony Robbins....money would probably be better spend on getting with yor local golf pro.

I think the same thing with the so-called internal guys. Most of us will go to a seminar and say "wow"cool...and try and make use of what they are teaching. Few have the time, ability, or the desire to see how it might really fit into their practice.

As a hobbyist, I could see where you'd say "this is not worth my time". I would agree. Frankly I am not a hobbyist, but a "professional" in martial stuff, as it is part of my job, and I am wondering if it is worth a great deal of my time...all things considered.

I think if we look hard at the conflict I and others have in this area, it stems more with the different perspectives of end state, and the realitive importance of various methodologies of learning new things to enhance our abilities. Of course, we have the whole "you don't get it" thing that gets thrown out there on occassion as well.

Understanding why you are training, what your endstate is, and then being able to see the difference between methodology and reality is what is key to keeping this straight!

I wonder why these "Asian practitioners" wouldn't demonstrate their skills in Pride or another MMA venue over there? What better way to make these things known to the public!

Sincerely,

Justin

Because they don't -want- people to know what they have, Justin. It gives them an edge. These arts have often been kept as family secrets, not public knowledge. Their existance has most probably gotten out into the Western world by accident, not because the Asian possessors of those skills wanted to "share them" with the world.

Because they don't -want- people to know what they have, Justin. It gives them an edge. These arts have often been kept as family secrets, not public knowledge. Their existance has most probably gotten out into the Western world by accident, not because the Asian possessors of those skills wanted to "share them" with the world.

We figured out in the computer world security though obscurity does not work. Too bad the rest of the world has not caught up.

Because they don't -want- people to know what they have, Justin. It gives them an edge. These arts have often been kept as family secrets, not public knowledge. Their existance has most probably gotten out into the Western world by accident, not because the Asian possessors of those skills wanted to "share them" with the world.

Sure... besides being a great party trick to impress the girls, it also helps when you have to deal with the chick's beefcake boyfriend when he thinks you're cracking onto his girl... in terms of an edge, the only advice I can give is don't stand too close... you might fall off....