No more guess work. I am measuring the cartridge so I can make a diagram, then I'll make a reamer. I may actually submit this to a reamer mfr just so they have it on their list. Funds are kind of tight right now so that will be later down the road.

WOW. You can likely have a reamer and dies made from it. It would be better if it was unfired at then it could be copied exactly. I wonder how much it is expanded over a unfired round
250 grain bullet that is a hunk of metal. the mag is a total score. how does it differ from a 7.62 mag?
it appears that the case taper is straighter than a 7.62 round is this correct? or is it the same?

07-31-2008, 06:36 PM

vz58

DANG!!! more pics!!!!!! measurements everything!!

I have friends in the sandbox who have not seen them but are looking for any unusuals

07-31-2008, 08:12 PM

hcpookie

The bullet was dug out of the embankement so you can see the rifling around it. Still, it retained its basic shape and weight as you can see. That agrees with all of the subsonic performance data I've seen, that you simply can't get expansion in a subsonic load.

The magazine is closer to a Saiga-12 magazine than anything else. Like a slick S-12 mag.

Feed lips are much thicker than the Bulgarian waffle mags I have.

The ribs are nice - seems like they did it for a grip surface, similar to the waffles' design.

The floorplate is synthetic, very much like a Galil or a Saiga-12 magazine.

Magazine spring looks just like an AK spring but shorter. Ditto for the follower.

08-01-2008, 03:16 AM

1biggun

HC I think you would likely get expansion out of a cast bullet or a lightly jackted hollow point. 9mm pistol loads expand at 900 fps. that bullet pictured likley would not unless it hit some thing solid like rocks or metal. but I think there is hope with a diffferant bullet design.
I have been working with some subsonic 7.62 loads and 180 Grain will not allow enough pressue build up to cycle the action and stay subsoinc likley will have to go to 200 0r 220 bullets. im guessing the 9mm bore would likely be pretty close to the same results with the same case capacity.
how much is the case mouth expanded over the original 9mm bullet OD. I am getting almost .007 expansion or .317 ID on a fired 7.62 round witch means on a .310 bullet the chamber is at least .007 and likely more as the case will shrink back some.
that means that your case may be streched .005 -.008 larger than when it was unfired, if the 9x39 has the same aproximent chamber clearances.

08-01-2008, 09:27 AM

hcpookie

Remember that chamber casting I made for the 7.62x39? The tolerances there are what I'll use for this one. I think it was .004" tolerance, except at the neck.

The only bullets originally made are the FMJ (apparently with hollow tip) called the SP-5, and the SP-6 which is a steel core penetrator with an exposed tip. The SP-6 is a result of the original penetrator, the PAB-9, causing excessive barrel wear. The difference is that the PAB penetrator was the complete bullet, with a copper jacket. The SP-6 is a steel core, surrounded by lead, in the copper jacket.

To start with, I intend to use the Nosler .366" 250 grain ballistic tips. That's the same weight but in a more conventional bullet. There are also some solids in that profile.

I know the boat tail on a bullet this size doesn't do anything for aerodynamics - the flat base performs the same. Boat tails are really better for faster rounds. However, I suspect the Russians designed the bullet WITH so that it would be more stable. The bullet is supposed to be a hollow tip, which makes this a HUGE 5.45 round in that it should have a tendency to yaw. That would mean a huge wound cavity potential!

The fact that I now have a bullet swaging press (long story) makes bullet design something I can toy with. I should be able to get the hollow tip design to work with a long enough copper tube by swaging the base, and then the tip. Working on the size of the lead core will be interesting, but it looks like, just with the .300-221 (Whisper) there isn't much powder behind it! :)

Edit to add -

I was made aware that Andrei's Russian website has SP-5 and SP-6 rounds available for sale as souveniers (keychain etc with a hole drilled in them), however due to the trouble he had with the authorities, he can no longer sell to the US. SO - if you're travelling to Russia any time soon, be sure to buy some from him and send them my way! :D I will pay GOOD MONEY for extras!

08-01-2008, 02:29 PM

1biggun

I HAVE HEARD THAT TRAIL BOSS POWDER PROVIDES BETTER LOAD DENSITY THAN RED DOT. IM GUESSING THAT 5 GRAINS OF POWDER WOULD BE CLOSE FOR A 250 GRAIN BULLET (ONLY A GUESS) i THINK WITH RED DOT LIKELY REQUIRING ONLY 4 GRAINS MIGHT NOT FILL THE CASE SUFICANTLY.

YOU MIGHT TRY MEMBER US DRAGNIOV HE IS IN RUSSIA. FOR A KEY CHAIN.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE IS NO CASE EXPANSION AT THE BASE AND PART WAY UP THE BOTTOM OF THE CASE. I AM SUPRISED AT HOW MUCH NECK AND CASE CLEARANCE THE 7.62X39 CHAMBER HAS. MY ROMMY HAS CLOSE TO .010 NECK CLEARANCE THIS CAN ONLY HURT ACCURACY AND REALLY WORK THE BRASS. .004-.005 SEEMS MORE LIKE A BETTER CLEARANCE TO ME. I HAVE A CLYMER REAMER I HOPE IT IS NOT AS SLOPPY OF A CHAMBER AS THE ORIGINAL AK STUFF.

CAN YOU SWEDGE JACKETED BULLETS FROM 45 CAL DOWN TO .430 I WOULD LOVE A SOURCE FOR POINTED .430 BULLETS FOR THE 444????? PROJECT

08-02-2008, 01:57 PM

Noble Sniper

Hello, I have been hunting some of this ammo and info myself. Glad you found one. If you do not mind sharing some of this info maybe a some of us could share the cost of a reamer. I want one ;) Thanks, Craig

I'm with noble sniper on this, I would consider helping with the reamer cost.

08-02-2008, 08:27 PM

1biggun

If you contact a reamer manufacture they will likely give a discount on cutting multipul reamers at one time if there all the same. same thing with dies. perhaps a small group buy could be arranged.I relize that you guys were wanting to share a reamer but that is another way to go. HC has said he may be willing to allow the cutter to put the dimensions on file. another way is to get HC to ream a barrel for you if he is interested for a fair fee. I have been interested in this project since HC proposed it back when.
If I get around to a supressor I will be all over it.