I was just reading pcp's debate about God and evil existing together if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies. Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

I admit I am no theological expert, so I'm asking these questions to understand...Does God create souls purely to populate Satans domain?

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

You just said that God gave us free-will. If he gave us free-will, then he doesn't create souls specifically to go to Hell. He creates free souls to make their own choices and will send them to Hell after evaluating those choices.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies.

That's his choice, his will. There's no excuse. I don't care if my parents are Pol Pot and Mao, that ain't going to change me into a psychopathic killer.

Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

Yes, and he deserves what he gets (though, not eternally).

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

He knows his actions are wrong and deserves what he gets (unless he has a mental disorder, then we can cut him some slack).

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

Again, you just said that he gave us free will. If he gave us free will, our personalities are created by us, not him. If God created personalities, that would negate your premise that God gave us free will.

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

WHAT? That's ludacris. Is it the judges fault that a man raped and killed 9 children? No. It's the man's fault and he does his time.

If people are given free will, free choice, then they are dooming themselves. Why is God responsible for their deviant actions done out of free will?

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

You just said that God gave us free-will. If he gave us free-will, then he doesn't create souls specifically to go to Hell. He creates free souls to make their own choices and will send them to Hell after evaluating those choices.

What about those who didn't have 'those choices'. If a child soldier is filled with drugs and told to go and kill innocent people and does so and grows to enjoy killing because of the rewards associated with it (praise from commanding officers, drugs, luxuries, ect...) does he go to Hell?

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies.

That's his choice, his will. There's no excuse. I don't care if my parents are Pol Pot and Mao, that ain't going to change me into a psychopathic killer.

Clearly you don't think the enviroment you grow up can have a serious effect on your personality, which is another debate in another forum.

Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

Yes, and he deserves what he gets (though, not eternally).

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

He knows his actions are wrong and deserves what he gets (unless he has a mental disorder, then we can cut him some slack).

So people with mental disorders who do horrible things go to Heaven?

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

Again, you just said that he gave us free will. If he gave us free will, our personalities are created by us, not him. If God created personalities, that would negate your premise that God gave us free will.

Ok, that answers that question.

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

WHAT? That's ludacris. Is it the judges fault that a man raped and killed 9 children? No. It's the man's fault and he does his time.

Why is it ludacris? Aren't we talking about an all knowing being? Surely he knew that by giving people free will that a number of them would go to Hell. Thus, by created humans and giving them free will he is dooming a certain percentage to Hell. I don't get how that is ridiculous.

If people are given free will, free choice, then they are dooming themselves. Why is God responsible for their deviant actions done out of free will?

If I gave my child a handgun and he shot someone, who's fault is that?What about if I built a robot and it malfunctioned and killed someone?

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:I was just reading pcp's debate about God and evil existing together if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:>>>>> Free will only exists when I suits his plan<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies. Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?>>>>>>>> yes, and remorse never saved anyone, ask Judas. he hung himself, where as Peter repented , (but not repented of sin) that never saved anyone ,, we repent meaning " a change of mind" about who Jesus is, the English word "Repent" means "of sin" the Greek doesn't NT written in Greek, Because Alexander ordered it 300 years before Christ,, so NT was written in the only known language>>>>>>>What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?>>>>>>> Yes<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pharaoh being an example yes,, at least to an extent<<<<<<<<<<I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free will is not 24/7<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I admit I am no theological expert, so I'm asking these questions to understand...Does God create souls purely to populate Satans domain?

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:I was just reading pcp's debate about God and evil existing together if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies. Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

I admit I am no theological expert, so I'm asking these questions to understand...Does God create souls purely to populate Satans domain?

We may define hell as " the absence of God. "

The absence of the One source of Life, Love, Truth, Wisdom, Peace, Joy and Light.

People, every single day of their lives, are CHOOSING hell; whenever you choose to deceive, to evade, to dominate, to go the easy path.. you are choosing hell.

Jesus Christ is the Narrow Gate.

ONLY through Him and His victory at the crosss do we have a chance of ecscaping the coming wrath.

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:I was just reading pcp's debate about God and evil existing together if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies. Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

depends, did he learn right from wrong? Did he have a handicap that disabled him from doing so? if either of these is the case he might not go to hell simply because of his actions in this life.

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

ya hes probably screwed

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

To the contrary. He gave us free will so that we could learn and grow and progress so that we could come back to him. I believe that we can all become gods, one part of progressing to that is going through this mortal existence and choosing good.

I admit I am no theological expert, so I'm asking these questions to understand...Does God create souls purely to populate Satans domain?

No, he wants none of us to go their. However t is inevitable that by our own choice some of us will fail.

At 8/17/2010 12:08:08 AM, tvellalott wrote:I was just reading pcp's debate about God and evil existing together if God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.His (very good) argument is that God has given us free-will and although he is willing and able, he can't interfere because it would defeat the purpose of free-will.Ok, I can buy that but it in turn leads me to this conclusion:

God creates souls specifically to send them to Hell.

Imagine a child born to drug addict, thieving evil parents. He grows up a psychopath, stealing and hurting people and eventually becoming a killer. He never shows any remorse and dies. Surely this kind of person goes to Hell, right?

What about someone raised in a perfectly loving, normal family, who grows up to be come a sociopathical child rapist, is never caught, never punished in life and never shows any remorse... That person MUST go to Hell right?

I just can't get this all straight in my head. I know God created life, but are we the individual creations of God. Rephrased, does he specifically create individual personalities?

I conclude the only reason to give humans free will is so that not everyone goes to Heaven. By giving them the choice, you're dooming a certain percentage of individuals to sinful lives.

I admit I am no theological expert, so I'm asking these questions to understand...Does God create souls purely to populate Satans domain?

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

Let me ask you what is just about all souls ending up in heaven?

Because the opposite is not just.

If God predetermines Salvation before birth that is unjust for obvious reasons.If God decides Salvation based on our works in this life it is unjust, this is because if someone is born to heroin addicts, or suffers from sociopathy then they are less likely to perform good works. they do not have an equal chance of Salvation.If God decides salvation based on a arbitary decision, such as acepting Jesus it is unjust. Someone well raised to Christian parents may have an unfair advantage, a boy abused by a Catholic Priest has an unfair disadvantage, someone of a highly rational or cynical mind has an unfair disadvantage.

For God to be judged everyone must have an equal chance of salvation, for God to be judged everyone must have access to an equal chance of redemption, and because someone's personality is ultimately decided by factors beyond their control, if one person acts in the correct way to be saved... everyone else must be as well because it is... or should... within their nature to seek.

If God is just he will redeem the worst of sinners, he may make them suffer, but he will come for them.

It may be that the wicked will have to be purified in purgatory or gehenna, but there must be a process there.

If God is not just he is not worthy of us.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

Let me ask you what is just about all souls ending up in heaven?

Because the opposite is not just.

If God predetermines Salvation before birth that is unjust for obvious reasons.If God decides Salvation based on our works in this life it is unjust, this is because if someone is born to heroin addicts, or suffers from sociopathy then they are less likely to perform good works. they do not have an equal chance of Salvation.If God decides salvation based on a arbitary decision, such as acepting Jesus it is unjust. Someone well raised to Christian parents may have an unfair advantage, a boy abused by a Catholic Priest has an unfair disadvantage, someone of a highly rational or cynical mind has an unfair disadvantage.

For God to be judged everyone must have an equal chance of salvation, for God to be judged everyone must have access to an equal chance of redemption, and because someone's personality is ultimately decided by factors beyond their control, if one person acts in the correct way to be saved... everyone else must be as well because it is... or should... within their nature to seek.

If God is just he will redeem the worst of sinners, he may make them suffer, but he will come for them.

It may be that the wicked will have to be purified in purgatory or gehenna, but there must be a process there.

If God is not just he is not worthy of us.

look at my reply. I mention and will elaborate with an example. If someone grows up a cannible and that is all they ever know and they have a handicap that disembodies them from reality(obviously an extreme example) and all they ever live for and know is cannibalism. Then they wont be judged poorly for that because they never had the chance to learn otherwise.

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

Let me ask you what is just about all souls ending up in heaven?

Because the opposite is not just.

If God predetermines Salvation before birth that is unjust for obvious reasons.If God decides Salvation based on our works in this life it is unjust, this is because if someone is born to heroin addicts, or suffers from sociopathy then they are less likely to perform good works. they do not have an equal chance of Salvation.If God decides salvation based on a arbitary decision, such as acepting Jesus it is unjust. Someone well raised to Christian parents may have an unfair advantage, a boy abused by a Catholic Priest has an unfair disadvantage, someone of a highly rational or cynical mind has an unfair disadvantage.

For God to be judged everyone must have an equal chance of salvation, for God to be judged everyone must have access to an equal chance of redemption, and because someone's personality is ultimately decided by factors beyond their control, if one person acts in the correct way to be saved... everyone else must be as well because it is... or should... within their nature to seek.

If God is just he will redeem the worst of sinners, he may make them suffer, but he will come for them.

It may be that the wicked will have to be purified in purgatory or gehenna, but there must be a process there.

If God is not just he is not worthy of us.

look at my reply. I mention and will elaborate with an example. If someone grows up a cannible and that is all they ever know and they have a handicap that disembodies them from reality(obviously an extreme example) and all they ever live for and know is cannibalism. Then they wont be judged poorly for that because they never had the chance to learn otherwise.

That works as well, we are judged relative to our birth status.

But as we are all a product of events beyond our control we all get to heaven. Unless there is a point in time in which we, fully cogniscant of God, fully aware of all the facts, and in a state of supreme rationality, choose to reject him.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

Let me ask you what is just about all souls ending up in heaven?

Because the opposite is not just.

If God predetermines Salvation before birth that is unjust for obvious reasons.If God decides Salvation based on our works in this life it is unjust, this is because if someone is born to heroin addicts, or suffers from sociopathy then they are less likely to perform good works. they do not have an equal chance of Salvation.If God decides salvation based on a arbitary decision, such as acepting Jesus it is unjust. Someone well raised to Christian parents may have an unfair advantage, a boy abused by a Catholic Priest has an unfair disadvantage, someone of a highly rational or cynical mind has an unfair disadvantage.

For God to be judged everyone must have an equal chance of salvation, for God to be judged everyone must have access to an equal chance of redemption, and because someone's personality is ultimately decided by factors beyond their control, if one person acts in the correct way to be saved... everyone else must be as well because it is... or should... within their nature to seek.

If God is just he will redeem the worst of sinners, he may make them suffer, but he will come for them.

It may be that the wicked will have to be purified in purgatory or gehenna, but there must be a process there.

If God is not just he is not worthy of us.

look at my reply. I mention and will elaborate with an example. If someone grows up a cannible and that is all they ever know and they have a handicap that disembodies them from reality(obviously an extreme example) and all they ever live for and know is cannibalism. Then they wont be judged poorly for that because they never had the chance to learn otherwise.

That works as well, we are judged relative to our birth status.

But as we are all a product of events beyond our control we all get to heaven. Unless there is a point in time in which we, fully cogniscant of God, fully aware of all the facts, and in a state of supreme rationality, choose to reject him.

we dont have to be fully aware, but if you are taught the basics of right and wrong whether or not you believe it is then your responsibility to follow that code of conduct.

If God is just it must be the case that ultimately all souls end up in heaven.

Let me ask you what is just about all souls ending up in heaven?

Because the opposite is not just.

If God predetermines Salvation before birth that is unjust for obvious reasons.If God decides Salvation based on our works in this life it is unjust, this is because if someone is born to heroin addicts, or suffers from sociopathy then they are less likely to perform good works. they do not have an equal chance of Salvation.If God decides salvation based on a arbitary decision, such as acepting Jesus it is unjust. Someone well raised to Christian parents may have an unfair advantage, a boy abused by a Catholic Priest has an unfair disadvantage, someone of a highly rational or cynical mind has an unfair disadvantage.

For God to be judged everyone must have an equal chance of salvation, for God to be judged everyone must have access to an equal chance of redemption, and because someone's personality is ultimately decided by factors beyond their control, if one person acts in the correct way to be saved... everyone else must be as well because it is... or should... within their nature to seek.

If God is just he will redeem the worst of sinners, he may make them suffer, but he will come for them.

It may be that the wicked will have to be purified in purgatory or gehenna, but there must be a process there.

If God is not just he is not worthy of us.

look at my reply. I mention and will elaborate with an example. If someone grows up a cannible and that is all they ever know and they have a handicap that disembodies them from reality(obviously an extreme example) and all they ever live for and know is cannibalism. Then they wont be judged poorly for that because they never had the chance to learn otherwise.

That works as well, we are judged relative to our birth status.

But as we are all a product of events beyond our control we all get to heaven. Unless there is a point in time in which we, fully cogniscant of God, fully aware of all the facts, and in a state of supreme rationality, choose to reject him.

we dont have to be fully aware, but if you are taught the basics of right and wrong whether or not you believe it is then your responsibility to follow that code of conduct.

The fully aware refers to the one thing we could conceivably do to loose salvation.

But basically I've shown that if God is just, we are pretty much assured of heaven.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 8/17/2010 8:40:46 AM, vivalayeo wrote:The problem is, why would someone be given an infinite punishment, for a finite crime?

Not just is it.Therefore God is not just, or the concept of an eternal hell is false. Or indeed both.

As the God of the old testament is neither just, nor believes in hell the whole thing is built on a rather shaky foundation.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 8/17/2010 8:52:51 AM, twsurber wrote:John 3:18 tells us that people are either saved or condemned. People are in a condemned status unless they choose to get accept salvation through faith in Jesus.

A person is condemned by default. They can choose to get saved. God doesn't populate hell, people who choose not to get saved go there. Hell was creted for Satan and his angels.

An utterly unjust system.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

Especially in the debate world, humans rely almost exclusively upon logic and scientific proofs. They refuse to accept faith. Justice in the eyes of human beings is limited to the finiteness of human understanding, which could be their own downfall, by refusing to accept the gift of salvation.

"Just" as defined by human reasoning does not equal "Just" by God's definition.

Especially in the debate world, humans rely almost exclusively upon logic and scientific proofs. They refuse to accept faith. Justice in the eyes of human beings is limited to the finiteness of human understanding, which could be their own downfall, by refusing to accept the gift of salvation.

"Just" as defined by human reasoning does not equal "Just" by God's definition.

By the same token it is entirely plausible, indeed more than plausible that heaven is a place of eternal suffering.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

However, that is not what scripture tells us. Scripture is bound by neither human logic, nor human understanding. It is bound by faith, believing that which is not seen, and cannot be proven (at least by debate standards) which makes it illogical in terms understood by the greater debate community.

At 8/17/2010 11:00:38 AM, twsurber wrote:That would make sense in a logical thought process.

However, that is not what scripture tells us. Scripture is bound by neither human logic, nor human understanding. It is bound by faith, believing that which is not seen, and cannot be proven (at least by debate standards) which makes it illogical in terms understood by the greater debate community.

But surely God would have us reach him by our intelligence and rationality?

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 8/17/2010 11:00:38 AM, twsurber wrote:That would make sense in a logical thought process.

However, that is not what scripture tells us. Scripture is bound by neither human logic, nor human understanding. It is bound by faith, believing that which is not seen, and cannot be proven (at least by debate standards) which makes it illogical in terms understood by the greater debate community.

But surely God would have us reach him by our intelligence and rationality?

------------

God reaches us by espousing us to Jesus, allowing us to reach back through Jesus,

This is why we pray in the name if Jesus, the spirit is our down payment, or dowry, which is the promise to the marriage,

Jesus will return and take his "bride" home which he has prepared for us.

I think there is truth in the OP. If God creates us, and is said to know everything in the past, present and future, then he knows the fate of his creations. Now, I understand he cannot intervene since that would negate freewill. However, these are different times than when the Bible was initially conceived. Now, the number of atheists and agnostics are rising. More people are being exposed to alternate philosophies and religions. At this point, since other religions are starting to look more forgiving, something needs to be changed.

Surely, He has realized that. I know that, thousands of years ago, the inevitable condemnation of someone who had done evil was a serious enough scare, that it kept most societies in control. But now, more people are turning away from the traditional views of God and His unjust judgment. More people are finding their meaning in life in peaceful philosophies. If He knows that He is turning away millions of his creations, then He should be wise enough to realize that something seriously needs to be changed to save his us, once again.

We assume that God creates his people, knows what will happen, does not interfere in anyones's life even though the simple act of proving his existence would save millions from eternal torture, and then some of his creations suffer eternally and some are sent to eternal bliss. Well, thousands of years ago, God didn't seem that keen on freewill. He instated multiple rules. Killed thousands of people who were accused of violating them. And threatened anyone alive with his fires, plagues, floods and condemnation if they ignored his requests.

Why would he be so bent on freewill now? If he sacrificed himself for our sins... why does he continue to let us commit them? Wasn't the whole point of the crucification to rid humans of their sins, and to start anew? That doesn't seem to be going well...

At 8/17/2010 11:39:02 AM, annhasle wrote:I think there is truth in the OP. If God creates us, and is said to know everything in the past, present and future, then he knows the fate of his creations. Now, I understand he cannot intervene since that would negate freewill. However, these are different times than when the Bible was initially conceived. Now, the number of atheists and agnostics are rising. More people are being exposed to alternate philosophies and religions. At this point, since other religions are starting to look more forgiving, something needs to be changed.

Surely, He has realized that. I know that, thousands of years ago, the inevitable condemnation of someone who had done evil was a serious enough scare, that it kept most societies in control. But now, more people are turning away from the traditional views of God and His unjust judgment. More people are finding their meaning in life in peaceful philosophies. If He knows that He is turning away millions of his creations, then He should be wise enough to realize that something seriously needs to be changed to save his us, once again.

We assume that God creates his people, knows what will happen, does not interfere in anyones's life even though the simple act of proving his existence would save millions from eternal torture, and then some of his creations suffer eternally and some are sent to eternal bliss. Well, thousands of years ago, God didn't seem that keen on freewill. He instated multiple rules. Killed thousands of people who were accused of violating them. And threatened anyone alive with his fires, plagues, floods and condemnation if they ignored his requests.

Why would he be so bent on freewill now? If he sacrificed himself for our sins... why does he continue to let us commit them? Wasn't the whole point of the crucification to rid humans of their sins, and to start anew? That doesn't seem to be going well...

-------------

The scriptures teach men have no freewill, unless it suits God,

if God is the provider of faithA person can only believe when God has chosen them to be able to.

Jesus told us, "no man can come to me unless the power has been given him by my father".where's the free will ?

At 8/17/2010 11:39:02 AM, annhasle wrote:I think there is truth in the OP. If God creates us, and is said to know everything in the past, present and future, then he knows the fate of his creations. Now, I understand he cannot intervene since that would negate freewill. However, these are different times than when the Bible was initially conceived. Now, the number of atheists and agnostics are rising. More people are being exposed to alternate philosophies and religions. At this point, since other religions are starting to look more forgiving, something needs to be changed.

Ann, I think that the very things you addressed are accurate and seem unfair. I think Satan uses some of these very things to draw people away from a relationship with God. It really doesn't seem fair for people who have been tricked into believing something false to not have another chance. Unfortunately, Jesus is the only way, truth, and life.

Surely, He has realized that. I know that, thousands of years ago, the inevitable condemnation of someone who had done evil was a serious enough scare, that it kept most societies in control. But now, more people are turning away from the traditional views of God and His unjust judgment. More people are finding their meaning in life in peaceful philosophies. If He knows that He is turning away millions of his creations, then He should be wise enough to realize that something seriously needs to be changed to save his us, once again.

Again, people are relying on themselves, science, and logic. On the day of judgement, only salvation in Jesus will count.

We assume that God creates his people, knows what will happen, does not interfere in anyones's life even though the simple act of proving his existence would save millions from eternal torture, and then some of his creations suffer eternally and some are sent to eternal bliss. Well, thousands of years ago, God didn't seem that keen on freewill. He instated multiple rules. Killed thousands of people who were accused of violating them. And threatened anyone alive with his fires, plagues, floods and condemnation if they ignored his requests.

I dont think humans can rationally understand the depth of God's decisions, nor are we meant to understand them.

Why would he be so bent on freewill now? If he sacrificed himself for our sins... why does he continue to let us commit them? Wasn't the whole point of the crucification to rid humans of their sins, and to start anew? That doesn't seem to be going well...

Humans have always had freewill, even Adam and Eve. The point of the crucifixion was to make a way to reconcile our sins through faith in Christ. Prior to that, animals were sacrificed for human sin thru a priest. Jesus became not only the priest, but also the propitiation for our sin. All people have to do is accept the gift of salvation. Unfortunately many will choose to ignore it. The price for that decision is eternal separation from God.

Ann, I would be happy to share the plan of salvation with you, send me a PM if you are interested. Thomas

I'm reminded of the argument that says that humans don't actually have a choice if a God exists.Definition of Free Will:the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencieshttp://www.google.com...

Now, if humans truly have Free Will, they would have a choice to be able to choose different options, and not get punished for it. That's not Free Will, it's extortion, or blackmail. One of the two, I get the terms mixed around.Anyways, how can god, more specifically, the christian god exist and Free Will exist at the same time? They're mutually exclusive.

God says: Choose me or Burn.Free Will says:You can choose differing options, and not be punished for it.

Power to have a choice without external agencies. Well, god is an external agency. He says to choose him or burn. That's not Free Will. That is blackmail in it's purest form. He's basically forcing you to believe in him. And if you don't? You don't come off scotch free, you burn forever, thus eliminating your Free Will, and turning it into blackmail.

At 8/17/2010 5:14:28 PM, tvellalott wrote:Cerebal hit the nail on the head. Unless everyone goes to Heaven, God is unjust.

Thanks, I was not sure anyone else understood that.

I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.

At 8/17/2010 11:39:02 AM, annhasle wrote:I think there is truth in the OP. If God creates us, and is said to know everything in the past, present and future, then he knows the fate of his creations. Now, I understand he cannot intervene since that would negate freewill. However, these are different times than when the Bible was initially conceived. Now, the number of atheists and agnostics are rising. More people are being exposed to alternate philosophies and religions. At this point, since other religions are starting to look more forgiving, something needs to be changed.

Ann, I think that the very things you addressed are accurate and seem unfair. I think Satan uses some of these very things to draw people away from a relationship with God. It really doesn't seem fair for people who have been tricked into believing something false to not have another chance. Unfortunately, Jesus is the only way, truth, and life.

The way you phrased that you regret you believe in Jesus, oryou are sad that god is unjust with his methods.Also, your first sentence makes me laugh. You think her statements are unfair because they are accurate. What?

Surely, He has realized that. I know that, thousands of years ago, the inevitable condemnation of someone who had done evil was a serious enough scare, that it kept most societies in control. But now, more people are turning away from the traditional views of God and His unjust judgment. More people are finding their meaning in life in peaceful philosophies. If He knows that He is turning away millions of his creations, then He should be wise enough to realize that something seriously needs to be changed to save his us, once again.

Again, people are relying on themselves, science, and logic. On the day of judgement, only salvation in Jesus will count.

Yeah, throw away that logic and reason! Who needs it when you have blind faith?

We assume that God creates his people, knows what will happen, does not interfere in anyones's life even though the simple act of proving his existence would save millions from eternal torture, and then some of his creations suffer eternally and some are sent to eternal bliss. Well, thousands of years ago, God didn't seem that keen on freewill. He instated multiple rules. Killed thousands of people who were accused of violating them. And threatened anyone alive with his fires, plagues, floods and condemnation if they ignored his requests.

I dont think humans can rationally understand the depth of God's decisions, nor are we meant to understand them.

Then how do you know that humans aren't meant to understand god? Surely you must've understood god perfectly to find out his thoughts and have insight upon him. But wait.. humans aren't meant to understand god. I'm reminded of the starburst commercial.

Why would he be so bent on freewill now? If he sacrificed himself for our sins... why does he continue to let us commit them? Wasn't the whole point of the crucification to rid humans of their sins, and to start anew? That doesn't seem to be going well...

Humans have always had freewill, even Adam and Eve. The point of the crucifixion was to make a way to reconcile our sins through faith in Christ. Prior to that, animals were sacrificed for human sin thru a priest. Jesus became not only the priest, but also the propitiation for our sin. All people have to do is accept the gift of salvation. Unfortunately many will choose to ignore it. The price for that decision is eternal separation from God.

Free Will implies that you can have separate choices, and you won't be harmed when choosing them. What god employs is blackmail. Believe or burn. Not much of a choice, is it?

Atheist, I'm not sad at all that it's unfair, I was simply empathizing with Ann's plight. Surely you agree that it doesn't seem fair as you called it blackmail.

In Biblical terms you are exactly right, it depends on what you referred to as blind faith. Further, blind faith defies reason.

Why would God punish someone infinitely for finite disobedience? Excellent question. I dont know the answer to tha, but I would respond with another question: Why would a person who had this information refuse to act on it? Is that logical?