Can you remind me again where you have been keeping the PG clone dough ball at market and the temperature of the cooling unit?

It is hard to say from the latest photo whether the dough will have doubled by 3:00PM tomorrow. So you may want to monitor the spacing of the poppy seeds. If the expansion is insufficient, you may want to give the dough more temper time at room temperature.

The Papa Ginoís clone dough ball was moved to my deli case today, because I had to turn the pizza prep fridge down more in temperature. The PG clone dough ball now is at 40 degrees F, or 43 degrees F, depending on which temperature is right.

I know, I even have a hard time deciding if the PG clone dough ball will be doubled in volume until 3:00 pm tomorrow. I will monitor the spacing of the poppy seeds. I understand if the dough ball isnít doubled by the spacing of the poppy seeds I should give the dough ball more temper time.

Norma,Those pizza molds are pretty cool...they make it look easy.You already do all that stuff so this should be like a walk in the park.In case you haven't seen this or if anyone else is interested, here's a 'lil video....http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageid=45

Bob,

I think the pizza mold is cool too, but don't think it will be like a walk in the park. Whenever I try something new, there is always a learning curve for me. Thanks for posting the link to the video. I had planned on watching it, but haven't yet. I might even try the pizza mold on one of my regular market dough balls.

Thanks for explaining the provenance of the latest PG clone dough ball. I look forward to your next report on the status of the dough ball as of 3:00PM tomorrow and after the temper period.

As long as you get a decent rise out of the PG clone dough ball and it is soft enough to open up, I think you should be fine. As you know, there is nothing odd about the dough formulation. It is pretty straightforward.

As you know, there is nothing odd about the dough formulation. It is pretty straightforward.

Peter

Peter,

I know the dough formulation is pretty straightforward. I think if I would have gotten a little higher final dough temperature, (what you suggested) the PG clone dough ball might have fermented a little more until today.

These are my explanations of what happened with the Papa Ginoís attempt yesterday.

The PG clone dough ball didnít ferment a lot more until I arrived at market on Tuesday morning. I decided to take it out of the deli case at 1:45 pm to warm-up at room temperature. There were a few speckles on the PG clone dough ball. The PG clone dough ball sat out at 75 degrees F until 3:45 pm, when I took the measurement of the final spacingís of the poppy seeds. I used the pizza mold to form the skin. Using the pizza mold is fairly easy. The PG clone dough ball opened easily and even wanted to stick a little to the pizza mold with the cornmeal added. This PG clone attempt was opened to 15-15.5Ē depending on where the skin was measured.

Steve and I used the same cheese blend with Greek oregano. We used the can of Classico peeled ground tomatoes, because I had seen before there looked like there were little chunks of tomatoes in them. Steve added ľ teaspoon kosher salt, 1/8 teaspoon pepper and ľ teaspoon powdered garlic to the Classico peeled ground tomatoes. The sauce then tasted good to both of us. 6 ounces of the sauce was applied in this attempt.

I sure donít know why, but the rim crust did get somewhat airy again. I donít know if it my opening techniques or what that causes that.

The baked PG clone attempt was very good. Steve did like it very much, but doesnít like the grittiness of the cornmeal on the bottom crust. I really donít know how a real slice of PG pizza is, but the slice wanted to have some droop when a slice was held up.

The final weight of the baked PG clone attempt was 1.794 lbs right out of the oven. In about two minutes the weight went down to 1.788 lbs.

That is a good looking pizza. And thank you for measuring and noting everything you did.

For your information, the spacing of the poppy seeds in the first photo of the dough ball suggests a rise in the dough of about 42.4%. The spacing of the poppy seeds after the temper period of two hours suggests a rise in the dough of about 81%. At least we know that there was no overfermentation or anything near it and that you could increase the volume of the dough ball by using a two-hour temper period. However, at this point I more interested in why the dough didn't ferment faster. I have a few thoughts and possibilities on this that I would like to explore with you.

First, it is possible that the fermentation period I used for my calculations, 40 degrees F, was too low and, as a result, my calculations came up with a value for the IDY that was also too low. As you know, I selected the 40 degrees F number based on the temperatures that you previously measured for your home refrigerator and the deli case and pizza prep refrigerator at market. That number is fairly critical in that if it is too low or too high, the amount of yeast corresponding to those values can vary materially. However, based on the the temperatures of the three cooling units that you used for the most recent PG clone dough ball, I do not believe that the fermentation temperature was out of line.

Second, in my experience, when a dough ball is cold fermented in my refrigerator without the door being frequently opened and closed, as might occur, for example, when I make a dough and then leave town for several days, the dough will ferment more slowly while I am away. In your case, once you made the most recent PG clone dough at home and then brought it to market (while keeping it cool for the trip to market), the dough spent a good part of its fermentation time at market unmolested in the two cooling units. It is hard to say whether your dough cooled more slowly as a result, but it is a possibility that can't be ruled out at this point.

Third, upon rethinking what we have been trying to do to achieve a long cold fermentation, the finished dough temperature may have been too low. In your case, as you noted at Reply 352 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg216649.html#msg216649, that finished dough temperature was 70.3 degrees F. One of the things that I learned about long cold fermentations of several days. which usually entails using small amounts of yeast, is that the dough should get some fermentation going before refrigerating. Otherwise, the dough may not be usable (e.g., it may have a sourness due to underfermentation) at the earliest time it is desired to make a pizza out of it (say, three days). The period of fermentation prior to refrigerating need not be long. It can be a matter of minutes, say, 10 minutes. However, to get that fermentation going, it helps to have a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. Otherwise, you have to let the dough warm up for a while at room temperature to compensate for the reduced finished dough temperature. A good example of the application of the above principles is the 3-8 day cold fermented Papa John's clone dough that I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. You will note from that post that I used a finished dough temperature of 78 degrees F. I realize that you were aware of the finished dough temperature matter since you specifically mentioned it at Reply 352 referenced above. So, intuitively, you may have sensed that the finished dough temperature was too low. At this point, we just don't know.

Based on the above analysis, should you decide to make another PG clone dough, I think I would use the same PG clone formulation as before but use a higher finished dough temperature, for example, between 75-80 degrees F, or else give the dough some warm-up time before refrigerating. Based on the results of that dough, we should be in a better position to know whether further changes are needed.

With respect to Steve's objection to the cornmeal, that is an easy matter to resolve. I personally like the crunchiness characteristic that is imparted by the cornmeal but it can easily be left out if that effect is not desired.

On the matter of the oven spring that you achieved, it is possible that your oven temperature was too high. My recollection is that scott r discussed the oven temperatures that he observed being used at Papa Gino's stores that he frequented. I did a search for his post and found it at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70556.html#msg70556, where he mentioned 450 degrees F (I used around 475 degrees F in my home oven). In your case, you might need to experiment using a pizza screen or disk or pan to slow down the bake of the pizza to see if that yields a reduced oven spring and a smaller rim.

Finally, I note that the crust coloration did not indicate a need to add any sugar to the dough. That may change based on further experiments but at least for now it does not appear that there is any need to add sugar to the dough.

That is a good looking pizza. And thank you for measuring and noting everything you did.

For your information, the spacing of the poppy seeds in the first photo of the dough ball suggests a rise in the dough of about 42.4%. The spacing of the poppy seeds after the temper period of two hours suggests a rise in the dough of about 81%. At least we know that there was no overfermentation or anything near it and that you could increase the volume of the dough ball by using a two-hour temper period. However, at this point I more interested in why the dough didn't ferment faster. I have a few thoughts and possibilities on this that I would like to explore with you.

First, it is possible that the fermentation period I used for my calculations, 40 degrees F, was too low and, as a result, my calculations came up with a value for the IDY that was also too low. As you know, I selected the 40 degrees F number based on the temperatures that you previously measured for your home refrigerator and the deli case and pizza prep refrigerator at market. That number is fairly critical in that if it is too low or too high, the amount of yeast corresponding to those values can vary materially. However, based on the the temperatures of the three cooling units that you used for the most recent PG clone dough ball, I do not believe that the fermentation temperature was out of line.

Second, in my experience, when a dough ball is cold fermented in my refrigerator without the door being frequently opened and closed, as might occur, for example, when I make a dough and then leave town for several days, the dough will ferment more slowly while I am away. In your case, once you made the most recent PG clone dough at home and then brought it to market (while keeping it cool for the trip to market), the dough spent a good part of its fermentation time at market unmolested in the two cooling units. It is hard to say whether your dough cooled more slowly as a result, but it is a possibility that can't be ruled out at this point.

Third, upon rethinking what we have been trying to do to achieve a long cold fermentation, the finished dough temperature may have been too low. In your case, as you noted at Reply 352 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg216649.html#msg216649, that finished dough temperature was 70.3 degrees F. One of the things that I learned about long cold fermentations of several days. which usually entails using small amounts of yeast, is that the dough should get some fermentation going before refrigerating. Otherwise, the dough may not be usable (e.g., it may have a sourness due to underfermentation) at the earliest time it is desired to make a pizza out of it (say, three days). The period of fermentation prior to refrigerating need not be long. It can be a matter of minutes, say, 10 minutes. However, to get that fermentation going, it helps to have a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. Otherwise, you have to let the dough warm up for a while at room temperature to compensate for the reduced finished dough temperature. A good example of the application of the above principles is the 3-8 day cold fermented Papa John's clone dough that I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. You will note from that post that I used a finished dough temperature of 78 degrees F. I realize that you were aware of the finished dough temperature matter since you specifically mentioned it at Reply 352 referenced above. So, intuitively, you may have sensed that the finished dough temperature was too low. At this point, we just don't know.

Based on the above analysis, should you decide to make another PG clone dough, I think I would use the same PG clone formulation as before but use a higher finished dough temperature, for example, between 75-80 degrees F, or else give the dough some warm-up time before refrigerating. Based on the results of that dough, we should be in a better position to know whether further changes are needed.

With respect to Steve's objection to the cornmeal, that is an easy matter to resolve. I personally like the crunchiness characteristic that is imparted by the cornmeal but it can easily be left out if that effect is not desired.

On the matter of the oven spring that you achieved, it is possible that your oven temperature was too high. My recollection is that scott r discussed the oven temperatures that he observed being used at Papa Gino's stores that he frequented. I did a search for his post and found it at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70556.html#msg70556, where he mentioned 450 degrees F (I used around 475 degrees F in my home oven). In your case, you might need to experiment using a pizza screen or disk or pan to slow down the bake of the pizza to see if that yields a reduced oven spring and a smaller rim.

Finally, I note that the crust coloration did not indicate a need to add any sugar to the dough. That may change based on further experiments but at least for now it does not appear that there is any need to add sugar to the dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me what the photos suggest in percents of rise in the PG clone dough ball.

The PG clone dough ball did spent almost all the time without the doors being opened or closed, except for yesterday. I am not sure if my pizza prep fridge is lower in temperature either. It might be from taking the temperatures with the cheap thermometer. I donít know how digital thermometers do in a refrigerated unit. I do think the PG clone dough ball was too low in the final dough temperature. Even if I get a decent final dough temperature on my next attempt, do you think the PG clone dough ball needs at least 10 minutes to start the fermentation process, because of the low yeast amount? I also wanted to post that I have been using IDY that is kept in my freezer at home. I can get some more fresh IDY at market if you think that would help. I havenít been having any problems that I know of when making other doughs with the IDY that is in the freezer at home though. I never knew that one way dough wouldnít be useable is a sourness due to under fermentation. I donít think I ever experienced that before, and that wasnít the case in the baked PG clone pizza yesterday.

I donít think I have seen the post of yours in the Papa Johnís thread in how you mixed that dough. I find it interesting that the IDY was sprinkled over the dough mass in the mixer bowl and didnít know that is used to help prolong the useful life of a dough. I always learn something new on clone threads.

I personally like the crunch from the cornmeal too, but Steve said that part is just okay. I will use cornmeal in my next attempt. Do real slices of Papa Ginoís have any droop when eaten right out of the oven?

Thanks for finding scottrís post about the temperature of Papa Ginoís ovens. What do you suggest I use on my next attempt? I have both screens and black disks at market. I could use a lower temperature in my home oven if you want me to try that, but at market I canít just change the temperature for one pizza attempt.

It is good to hear that the crust coloration is okay and there is no need to add sugar at this point.

Ideally, you want the finished dough temperature to be around 75-80 degrees F. If you are within that range, you might let the dough sit at room temperature for about 10-15 minutes. You might need a bit more time than that if your room temperature is below that range, or a bit less if your room temperature is above that range. It is much like adjusting the temper time of a dough before using based on the prevailing room temperature. If you are suspicious about the actual temperature of your cooling units, you might give the dough an even longer time at room temperature. Ultimately, we may find that we need to increase the amount of IDY to work properly for your application. But, for now, I would like to see if increasing the finished dough temperature works by itself to achieve the desired results.

I don't see any need to get a new batch of IDY. The IDY I use is kept in my freezer.

With respect to the droop factor, yes, my recollection is that there was some droop at the tips of the slices. The last PG pizza I ate at a PG store had fresh tomato slices, mushrooms and pepperoni, and the slices did droop quite a bit, as you might suspect. So, I used a knife and fork. I have never had a PG cheese pizza.

To lower the bake temperature at the pizza level with your deck oven, you might use a couple of superimposed pizza screens under the unbaked pizza and remove them after the pizza has set up in the oven so that the bottom can bake more fully. This approach is just to see if you end up with less oven spring and a smaller rim.

Ideally, you want the finished dough temperature to be around 75-80 degrees F. If you are within that range, you might let the dough sit at room temperature for about 10-15 minutes. You might need a bit more time than that if your room temperature is below that range, or a bit less if your room temperature is above that range. It is much like adjusting the temper time of a dough before using based on the prevailing room temperature. If you are suspicious about the actual temperature of your cooling units, you might give the dough an even longer time at room temperature. Ultimately, we may find that we need to increase the amount of IDY to work properly for your application. But, for now, I would like to see if increasing the finished dough temperature works by itself to achieve the desired results.

I don't see any need to get a new batch of IDY. The IDY I use is kept in my freezer.

With respect to the droop factor, yes, my recollection is that there was some droop at the tips of the slices. The last PG pizza I ate at a PG store had fresh tomato slices, mushrooms and pepperoni, and the slices did droop quite a bit, as you might suspect. So, I used a knife and fork. I have never had a PG cheese pizza.

To lower the bake temperature at the pizza level with your deck oven, you might use a couple of superimposed pizza screens under the unbaked pizza and remove them after the pizza has set up in the oven so that the bottom can bake more fully. This approach is just to see if you end up with less oven spring and a smaller rim.

Peter

Peter,

Since it is cooler in our area I will just use regular tap water (or my jugs of water sitting at room temperature) to try and get a final dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. I will also let the PG clone dough ball sit out at room temperature for 10-15 minutes. It is usually around 67-70 degrees F in my kitchen this time of the year in the morning, so all my ingredients should be around that temperature.

Thanks for telling me about the droop factor of a real PG pizza. I can understand that your pizza might have had more of a droop factor if it had fresh tomato slices, mushrooms and pepperoni.

I do have many pizza screens so I can use a couple of them to put under the unbaked pizza and then remove them when the pizza has set up. I will be anxious to see if that method gives less oven spring and a smaller rim.

I tried to take some separate screen shots (with my cheap camera) of the Papa Ginoís slice and slices of pizza in the box if anyone is interested, These were taken from the video in the article in my last post.

The pictures didnít turn out that good, because I just used my camera to take the pictures off of my computer screen.

I did not see the article and video on the new Papa Gino's ad campaign but I can see how the video shows the drooping characteristic of the PG slices, in this case, even for a basic cheese pizza.

Your post prompted me to take a look at some of the PG YouTube videos. One of these videos, at , shows what appears to be rims formed using a pizza mold such as the one you recently purchased. However, as you know, with professional food photography, it is hard to say whether the photos are typical of what is produced in the real world at Papa Gino's. In most of the examples I have seen in the past, the pizzas shown in commercials do not look like those actually made in the stores.

Another YouTube video, at , appears to show what looks to be oil on the pizza that is typically released by cheddar cheese. Again, it may be a pizza that was produced mostly for its visual photographic appeal. It usually takes a reasonable amount of cheddar cheese to produce that effect.

In Reply 397, I believe that you meant to say Papa Gino's instead of Papa Dino's.