Friends for Fullerton’s Future obtained this video footage from an OCTA bus that pulled into the Fullerton Transportation Center moments after the vicious beating of Kelly Thomas by Fullerton police on July 5th. Listen to what these witnesses have to say:

This new video is more compelling evidence that excessive force caused the death of Kelly Thomas. First there was the video where the homeless, mentally-ill man’s cries for his father can be heard as he is beaten and Tased:

And then we saw the shocking photo of Kelly Thomas before he died, which has now been widely broadcast on network television and news websites around the world:

But still, the majority of Fullerton’s city council have refused to release the video that clarifies the police actions that lead to the death of Kelly Thomas on that night.

While we stand shocked at the brutality laid bare under their administrative watch, they quietly whisper behind closed doors, delay, obfuscate, make excuses and ignore the cries of the public for answers.

The people of Fullerton deserve to know right now: Are we safe from our own police?

I’ve been on vacation for two weeks and just heard about this horrific tragedy. I’m sickened by the way the COWARDS handled this situation. Hearing Kelly Thomas beg the COWARDS to stop beating him was horrible. Calling for his dad was heartwrenching!!! I wish I wouldn’t have read the story & viewed the videos before going to bed. We have a 38-year old son & can’t even imagine this happening to him. I feel for the family!!!! What a way to lose your loved one!

I am so pissed off at what these god dammed malfunctions did I can only hope and not rest until these murders get the death penalty. That one eyed a$$hole Cincinelli is going to lose his other eye when he comes across people who can deal with him one on one. How anybody could even stand by while these coward cops did this is also hard to believe. If I were there I think I would have jumped in and tried to take some of that away from the poor guy. Let them try that $hit on me. i’m alot bigger that that poor guy was. I am just infuriated, it’s really shocking how this could happen, how people like these sack of $hit could actually be walking around with badges and guns. I’d rather die than let some fat headed one eyeballed son of a bitch beat me to death. That entire department should be out on the street unemployed, this is just over the top outrageous. How can these morons live with themselves every day pulling that kind of corardly crap on innocent people. Oh, I hope these people fry for this, this is absolute war against these cops!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/tips.htm keep sending to USA today and CNN and MSNBC and facebbok sites…. if they can get the word our for that gardener( oak park hates veggies) they can get it out for this poor soul

We the People, need protection from those who are sworn to protect us. It is time for us to take a different view of the boys in blue. Lessons learned during the 3rd reich need to be remembered. The jack-booted thugs are back…..they wear badges, and they will use any excuse to beat you to a pulp. “STOP RESISTING” is their battle cry, and their excuse to dole out mortal combat on any and everyone. We the People are not safe from these terrorists. Wake up and see the power hungry cowards for who and what they are. Then do something about it. Mass protest. Demand justice for this soul who was executed by the Fullerton Police Department. Don’t let them sweep this under the rug, like they tried to do by not reporting it for a month. Demand justice for this defenseless human being, or you, or your child, could be next.

Are you implying that the “right choice” was to MURDER someone? Lord have mercy on your soul and on the souls of these police GANGSTERS. I couldn’t even watch this video. How sick and disgusted I feel!?! Why aren’t cops trained in recognizing mental illness either. Shoot/beat first ask questions later. This is no different than beating a small child or an 80 year old woman. This person needed help and instead they were killed.

You sir are an abomination and a plight to this planet. I hope evil vile things come when you least expect them and each and every one of your loved ones meet a violent end until the pain is so bad you take your own life.

That is untrue and unfair. There are many good cops working hard to serve and protect their communities. They are as outraged by this senseless act of violence as everyone else. Don’t stereotype; it won’t advance the discourse needed to prevent this from happening again.

Sure there are! Just none of them showed up on July 5th 2011. Out of 6-9 (some reports even showing 18) that showed up.

Out of 153 Fullerton Cops, a random sample of 6-9-18 was taken, and none of them were good. All of them are murderers and/or provided accessory to murder. Statistical question – how many good cops are in Fullerton. Statistical answer: NONE.

Nice that these idiots just sat around – video taped and made comments – lets stop bashing law enforcement and start bashing the sad state of our society in general. “Oh my god they tased him like 5 times” – dont just say it – do something about it

Shaun :
Nice that these idiots just sat around – video taped and made comments – lets stop bashing law enforcement and start bashing the sad state of our society in general. “Oh my god they tased him like 5 times” – dont just say it – do something about it

You realize that there were multiple cops right? Those cops had guns, and clearly disregarded human life…..its not coward to know running into your death is pointless. The cameras should have been right on the cops.

Free smart phone app we must all police the little piggies now that have been discovered what communists enthusiast they are they are combatant with helpless citizens.lets allow the swastika on there uniforms so every one knows to run like hell for your life my depend on it.

That bus driver handled things very professionally. Had he given the warning of video before the witnesses spoke up perhaps they wouldn’t have been so open. We pay our police unusually high salaries and we expect professionalism from them. Their mentality if too often “angry ex-military”.

Let’s hear it now FPD apologists! Did these fine citizens not see what they specifically and unanimously describe…a brutal, unjustified murder of a homeless guy that was doing nothing??? Still want to say this is all being blown out of proportion and we’re all overreacting? Many people MUST be fired/recalled over this (those in leadership positions who have failed us) and the perpetrators prosecuted. Above all…justice for Kelly Thomas!

I work for a municipality with buses. Most now have cameras/microphones running 24/7. Not to take anything away from the driver – he seemed genuinely concerned. But whoever released this from the bus dept. prob got a nasty call from Sellers.

it is amazing how stupid a person can be sometimes…this one eyed guy has brought so much attention to himself, his family and his neighbors by what he did to Kelly Thomas, all you have to do is google his name and you’ll get more info on him than what you want…i bet his neighbors, his own family are googling him as we “speak” …..

Once again, FFFF leads all other news outlets in actual investigative journalism.

On one hand, I couldn’t be prouder of the great work you guys are doing. On the other, I can’t understand why this group of amateurs (no offense) keeps scooping the so-called professionals! I smell some serious journalistic accolades in the works for Travis, Tony and the rest of the crew at FFFF.

$5 says Lou Ponsi with the Register picks this up in a day or two and takes credit.

You know what is interesting about this video is the story of these people on the bus corresponds exactly with the story of all the other witnesses.

Additionally, the story does not get embellished from the time the first person gets on the bus to the end of the video. Each person says just about the same thing, “they were punching him, beating him, tazing him (6 times), stomped on his chest.” All those elements have been part of the story as told by the other witnesses as well.

“Then everybody backed off, except Captain Hillmann,” Jay Cincinelli said. __“He took me under his wing; he put his career on the line to help me.__ “Even before the controversy, when I was at home doing rehab, Captain Hillman would take his own time to come and visit me and give me encouragement.

“It was a long battle and he helped me keep my job. He gave me a SECOND CHANCE to save my career at the risk of his own. He stood up for me when everybody else took cover. He said if they make a promise, they should stick to it.

“I was still on probation when I was shot and they were going to terminate me.

“He took my side and stood toe-to-toe with higher ranks, all the way to Chief (Bernard) Parks. I don’t think that helped his career.

“I think he had a lot to do with getting me this job, I know he was good friends with (Fullerton Police) Chief Pat McKinley. How many departments are going to hire an officer with one eye?”

One would think, after all Hillmann’s efforts, Cincinelli would want to make the old man proud. Wonder if Hillmann is proud of his young charge now? Wonder if he thinks maybe Cincinelli should have considered giving Kelly Thomas a SECOND CHANCE at life? How might things have turned out if Cincinelli had ‘stood up’ for Kelly when everybody else stomped him? Has Cincinelli lived up to the promise Hillmann thought he saw in the younger man?

This all begs the question: What do FPD officers believe makes an exemplary policeman? What do they strive to emulate? You think at home they practice imaginarily helping people in need, or rather, perhaps, dropping their knees to pillows on the floor pretending the pillow is a person in need’s face and throat? What a chilling thought! Is that how best to “Serve and Protect?”

What is the purpose of a police force anyway? What am I buying with my property taxes every year?

Why do people join the police force? Surely not for license to maim and/or destroy helpless victims!? Surely?

OKay..i am not saying there isn’t something terribly wrong with this cop…but “looks like he has brain damage” has got to be the stupidest comment I ever heard. Can you see brain damage now? Honestly. You can’t see brain damage, unless of course the brains are all over the sidewalk.

They showed the thugs the video so they could write plausible reports that would match the video. The higher ups had them rewrite the reports multiple times.
Dead eye Jay was bragging about beating up a homeless guy in the locker room. They thought they got away with it till the Dad started making noise.

@# 131 i really wonder if it would play out differently if there were no camera evidence. One of the rogue Fullerton cops always rough handles any citizen trying to record any of the police activity mainly officer Kenton Hampton he has been videoed assaulting a citizen who was not interfering with his job and was far enough away but he wouldn’t have it slammed the cell phone to the ground and manhandled his friend who was also recording.How ironic it was there very own light pole mounted video camera that has done them in with extremely graphic video.have a good time officer maggot JAY P. CICINELLI you can Bragg to your new cell mate BUBBA i hope your whole family is aware y0ou are a murderer!!

Great point that Ed. S brings up in regards to the continuity of the all the eye witness stories and facts. I too also love that the bus driver was quick to record and inform the public riders that they were being recorded, very smart thinking on his part.

If the public joins together especially on social networks we could let everyone know about the breaking news and investigating FFFF is doing and call out the OC Register.

@ Anonymous i would not trust the fbi either they do not have a good track record of putting rogue cops in prison lets just hope for the best outcome these murders need to go to prison and lose any benefits from the tax payers.

Or avoid America altogether. Sorry, nasty place down there already with the guns and for years I’ve been concerned with the direction the land of the free has been going. No pot, No gay, No non-xtians. Sorry, I’m more free up here in communist Canada and safer without the cops you have.

Some of the 5-6 officers involved are getting a bad wrap. At the moment, it looks as though 1 or 2 participated in the abuse. The others just responded to the radio call, as they should have. But the FPD is over due for an attitude adjustment, and I have documented on similar sites where I have not only seen them act unprofessionaly, but where they’ve been unprofessional with me. Sometimes the police need to turn up the heat, the FPD’S problem is they’ve been applying heat when they don’t have to. The Kelly Thomas matter went viral only after the news media got hold of it. I would like to see what the FPD’S internal investigation was saying ‘before’ the media became involved. If the Thomas family reads this I have a friendly suggestion, a lot of kids who age out of foster care become homeless. Give the money to Orangewood Gaurdian Scholars.

John, even if ONLY “1 or 2 participated in the abuse” the other 5 or 6 cops in attendance had a legal, moral and ethical responsibility to intercede. By them not getting involved in what was obviously a brutal (fatal) beating makes them an accessory to murder. So those 5-6 others that allegedly didn’t participate in the assault are as guilty as the ones that did.

In Canada and also at Nuremburg, you get a bad rap for sitting around and doing nothing.

If you take this entire story and edit out the mention of police and arrests, this would have been solved already. Coroners would be done, drug tests would have been completed, and people would have been charged.

Apply the Law as she appears in that little statue…. blindly and evenly.

Oh and uh articulate homeless people and bus riders in general are not credible witnesses. They don’t know what they saw. We’re still rewriting our reports and editing the footage before we can filter out our version of reality to the public.
Goodwrench
Fullerton PD Spokeshole

#38 Sipowicz
Yes first asked McKinley Blankhead and He Haw to step down to save the City money
in a Recall, they will not of course.
Start with McKinley he hired these defects.
We do have some honorable officers we need to weed them out and keep them.
Those three Councilmen are past their due date.

this tape is horrifying to hear and see-the informant on KFI is going to provide names-hes alreadyidentified one of the beaters as a retired LAPD due to losing an eye in a shootout sounds like Jay Cincinelli-just sayin

Hey that Jim Cicinelli is a regular at the 24 hr fitness in La Mirada off of Beach Blvd. My son recognizes his picture. We have seen his one eye before. Be sure to give him a piece of your mind when you see him there.
Also Kelly Thomas was a father of a young boy.
So, so far 3 out of the 6 have been named Jim Cicinelli, Kenton Hampton, and Joe Wolfe. 3 more to go.

John :NonyaB and Joe Sipowicz, I respectfully disagree. This Kelly Thomas matter has morphed in to a witch hunt against the entire FPD. Ruining the lives of officers who had little to nothing to do with it is wrong. Wherever Kelly is right now I doubt he would want that to happen. And don’t accuse me of making excuses for the FPD because I’ve been all over these sites saying the FPD can be abusive.

Hey #48 pull your head out of your @ss. Abusive is me telling you to shut the F*ck up. This is cold blooded MURDER in the middle of town in front of many witnesses to a homeless man screaming for his life. To add insult to injury, this MURDER was carried out by 6 thugs with a badge on the public’s dime, who now are hiding under the skirt of that coward and poor excuse for a man Chief Michael Sellers who to date has not spoken out to the community about this crime what a coward.

NonyaB and Joe Sipowicz, I respectfully disagree. This Kelly Thomas matter has morphed in to a witch hunt against the entire FPD. Ruining the lives of officers who had little to nothing to do with it is wrong. Wherever Kelly is right now I doubt he would want that to happen. And don’t accuse me of making excuses for the FPD because I’ve been all over these sites saying the FPD can be abusive.

and the fact that NO one came forth with any info from the FPD proves it-tough noogies, they brought it on themselves-SOB’s-I dont understand the women -usually the woman are more apt to feel bad-I guess not here though

@kahn There are no words to describe what a complete douche bag a-hole you are, May one of these “friends in blue” of yours smash your testicles into flat discs while you are being a good citizen and obeying one of these animals so i can buy them and wear them as earrings- you fool

Wonder if the Poe-lice likes all the resisting they are getting now, oh except for you

And another pig speaks up to chastise the lowly civilians who pay his bloated salary when they express concern and outrage over roided up sociopath peace officers beating innocent handicapped people to death.

Kahn your a fascist Police Goon Squad Parasite! The citizens of Fullerton should Waterboard you and tase you six times all at once! what you must have gotten punched in high school everyday. What a douche bag!

You should know better than anyone that “resisting arrest” is just a bullshit term that justifies cops getting overly physical. I’d venture to guess that 85% of the “resisting arrest” charges are excuses by cops for why the person in his custody has a broken arm, fractured face, etc. etc. Don’t play that “don’t resist” bullshit. If someone has been brought to the ground already, often by more than 1 officer with hands behind their back they are not resisting anything, at that point, we all know we’re just human punching bags in your custody.

Kahn,
so you are admitting and supporting the police policy of pounding the face of any citizen that doesn’t cower like a sheep waiting for slaughter? And I guess that when the citizens decide they have had enough and fight back by pounding the face of abusive cops you will whine that we should not defend ourselves against brutality. What a total POS you are.

I get it. Thievery, while being handled with cutting off your hand is excessive and uncivilized. Killing a thief is much more 20th century. Have you ever seen someone committing a crime that was just not worth the hassle of paperwork. Well this is almost the same, unless of course you think a kid that steals a 15 cent sweet from a store should be killed by 6 officers.

@ john THEY ARE ALL GUILTY FOR NOT OUSTING THESE BAD COPS IT’S LIKE CONDONING IT.iF YOU SEEN SOMEONE YOU KNOW MURDER SOMEONE WOULD YOU SWEEP IT UNDER THE CARPET OR DO THE RIGHT THING AND REPORT IT A SIMPLE Anonymous E-MAIL TO A RADIO STATION WOULD HAVE AT LEAST SHOWED THEY CARED ABOUT A HUMAN BEING LIKE YOU AND MEAT TH WAS MURDERED BY THE HANDS OF A FELLOW OFFICER.THAT IS WHY WE DON’T CARE ABOUT THERE FEELINGS A POOR SOUL IS NO LONGER WALKING THIS EARTH BECAUSE OF A LOW LIFE BOTTOM FEEDER FULLERTON COP THEY SHOULD ALL FEEL THE PAIN AT LEAST THEY ARE STILL LIVING AND BREATHING AND WILL HAVE A LONG TIME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE OR IN THIS CASE NOT DONE.

@ john THEY ARE ALL GUILTY FOR NOT OUSTING THESE BAD COPS IT’S LIKE CONDONING IT.iF YOU SEEN SOMEONE YOU KNOW MURDER SOMEONE WOULD YOU SWEEP IT UNDER THE CARPET OR DO THE RIGHT THING AND REPORT IT A SIMPLE Anonymous E-MAIL TO A RADIO STATION WOULD HAVE AT LEAST SHOWED THEY CARED ABOUT A HUMAN BEING LIKE YOU AND ME THIS WAS MURDERED BY THE HANDS OF A FELLOW OFFICER.THAT IS WHY WE DON’T CARE ABOUT THERE FEELINGS A POOR SOUL IS NO LONGER WALKING THIS EARTH BECAUSE OF A LOW LIFE BOTTOM FEEDER FULLERTON COP THEY SHOULD ALL FEEL THE PAIN AT LEAST THEY ARE STILL LIVING AND BREATHING AND WILL HAVE A LONG TIME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE OR IN THIS CASE NOT DONE.

The KFI deep throat was not present, his info is secondhand and rumor. Keep using your blog to name innocent officers as murders. How much you got…..20 million I hear…I want some, spell my name right please and my address.

@ tony it sucks you low life bottom feeders got caught you and your maggot bullies are sinking faster than the Titanic lets see what kind of balls you have you say this blog is naming innocent officers that tells me you know the offending officers don’t you OK tough guy lets see what kind of balls you really got” WHO THE FUCK ARE THEY” tell us so we can start having some trust and some honesty from the FPD If you give a rats ass about your fellow “Good GUY cops” oust the bad ones right now i expect to see that post tomorrow.I do hope you will not be on the list as that would explain your resistance OFFICER STOP RESISTING OUR YOU WILL GET TAZED by a jury!!!

@ I want Tony’s money, None of the pigs involved are innocent and any other cop that knew what they did is also guilty. The PIGS that did this ARE murderers and should be tried and if convicted sentenced to at least life in prison. And any cop that knew what they did should be fired and charged with obstruction. There is no excuse for what those PIGS did and your support of them shows that you also are a scum sucking POS

This MF Jim Cicinelli ex LA PD who was shot in the eye and several parts of his body almost died & the guy who shot him was sentence to life in prison, I think this Cicinelli should be sentence to die for murder

Lt Ronald Kahn, if this is really you, which I doubt. I think its pretty obviouse one or more of the officers went to far. But its also wrong to crucify all of them. Any way, I doubt you speak for the protective league because you are likely an impersonator.

haha-hells yeah, only some-only some, just-the ones who did it, the ones who stood by and didnt do anything, the ones who didnt say anything and still wont and the ones who are doing the Watergate shuffle- trying to hide/edit/destroy/lie things

Police officers are specifically trained to know what is permitted and what is not. What is illegal and what is not.

ALL 6 officers are responsible. Those that were there in their offical capacity AND DID NOTHING TO STOP THE BEATING are more guilty than those that actually did the beating. They had the ability and responsibility to stop it and prevent the life of a citizen from being taken.

For me, their crime of inaction is worse than the acts of the perpertrators.

I really really really want to know why the fullerton pd hired a one eye cop with multiple gunshot wounds. It’s not like they were fresh out of recruits also this beating looked like the work of a savage chimp so my next AND MOST IMPORTANT question is, did any bullet or bone fragments from the shooting enter his brain and cause any damage?

Did he behave like a normal person?

Based on another caller to KFI’s John and Ken show, he was extremely aggressive with two 14 year old girls from a group home.

Was he involved in any shootings?
Are there any complaints against him for excessive force?

kahn :
Don’t get me wrong I think the FPD can possibly in a slight way handle people roughly when they resist arrest but this kelly thomas character obviously deserved everything he got.
If you don’t want your face pounded in DONT RESIST ARREST …just that simple people!
BTW, don’t accuse me of being pro police. I’m far from it. I’m just a concerned citizen who respects that badge and will do anything a cop tells me without 2nd guessing it AS ALL CIVILIANS SHOULD!
Lt Ronald Kahn
Los Angeles Police Protective League

Hey, Lt. Kahn. Is that what you do, pound someone’s face in for resisting arrest (your favorite catch phrase after brutalizing a civilian who might talk back or explain)? We are not your slaves and you are not our occupying army. we are free people. Remember, you are supposedly “peace officers”, “protecting and serving”. Bullshit. Your badges do not make you our lords. I have never seen cops behave like this or been afraid of cops. I grew up in New York and have never been afraid for my life like I am now when I see a patrol car. It seems all you guys do is look to stop cars so you can collect the outrageous fines that feed your thieving pensions. Your comment here only affirms what I have always suspected suspected. I am a law abiding citizen but had an incident recently where I was stopped for supposedly not stopping long enough at a stop sign. Although I never left my car, kept my hands in sight, complied with everything the cop asked, and duly signed the citation, I argued the ticket with her. She told me in traffic court that she was about to pepper spray me (she didn’t have a taser yet), and her supervisor told me that he would have put me in the hospital if I had argued with him instead. Well, you know what. Lt. Kahn. I do respect the law, but expect to be treated as a human being with the same respect you would expect. If you were to ever pound my face over not kissing your pig ass, you’d better kill me, because I would find you.

Kahn is a fucking moron who was dropped on his head, no one is taking that lunatic seriously at least not here, but I suggest you carry a tree branch and walk in packs so you never get caught “resisting” by one of his favorite goons

Although initially I might have felt sorry for this SOB, it appears from other stories I have heard and God knows how many other instances of brutality that this officer is not of right mind, and should have never passed the psychological tests to be a cop. He is clearly a danger to society, and a run-in with him can cost one’s life. His employment should end immediately, and of course he should be indicted if the allegations I have seen are true. That whole Fullerton Department should be cleaned up from top to bottom, if not disbanded, and Chief Sellers and others should be indicted and tried as well. Just think that Presidents Nixon and Clinton were impeached and almost went to prison for a lot less, actually trivial incidents. Here, we’re talking about covering up murder.

Hey #54 Kahn there is no way you are an x cop coming on this site I just don’t see you cops hanging with the common folks like us all you clowns are cowards you hang with other cops not with us besides I just don’t see you to have the stones. Come on tell us all from you “professional” opinion were these 6 goons giving each other high fives after the shift tipping back a cold one sharing war stories how they really showed that homeless man Kelly who was boss that night on 7/5…. you’re a clown

I think 7/5 should be a date remembered as a date that your freedoms were videoed to be under assault. They’ve been under assault a lot longer, but you feel safer since that other number has scared you into losing them. 9/11. 🙁

This is disgusting. These cops should be punished to the fullest extent. Someone should beat them to a pulp and taser them. They give the cops that are out there trying to do good a bad name. Although I don’t think there are too many left. Now a days you hear more and more about these stupid cops doing stupid things. It amazes me what this world is coming to.

@ mcr — to bad does not seem like he gives a shit either not one of these cops so much has sent an e-mail to the DA or media how is this cop a role model? He did the silent mute response also.what is that teaching the explorers ? it tells them say nothing and hide your mistakes and forget being responsible.really sad

Honest good officer need to come out and speek out about bad cops.That’s the only way this kind of thing will come to a STOP.If you call your self a good police officer and see this kind of thing going on and say nothing.Then your just as bad as them.How the hell do some of you cops sleep at night. POLICE THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY.

Not only is one eyed jackoff working for Fullerton- he probably collecting a disability pension from the LAPD and making a fortune. I am sick over this and although i live in the bay area i would be willing to make the trip to show my anger-if anyone were to organize.
lets do something.

This alleged crazed POS is collecting 70 % of his pay, tax free, since he was dismissed by LAPD back in 1998, and then double dipping from Fullerton PD. He will also get a last year’s overtime spiked salary, probably disability based tax free 90 % pension from Fullerton PD (many cops get certified to be disabled prior to retiring; there are attorneys and doctors who routinely do this, another state wide scandal the press should investigate).

To my knowledge when an officer gets hurt on a job ie. one eye Cicinelli, he would be qualifly to collects medical disability and if he does collect medical disabilty then he cant work for any other policy agencies. So this telling me, that something smells like rotten eggs here.

The fake-photo-that-was-real… that mug shot was one of several, correct? Meaning Kelly had been arrested on multiple occasions? Were he known for resisting, that would have been one of the first things they’d released. I think it’s safe to assume that he was familiar with being arrested.

Let’s factor in his mental illness. Schizophrenics have bad days and bad breaks. However, there are zero reports of any kind of aggressive or even agitated behavior on his part from that day. I also think it’s safe to assume he was lucid at the time of the officers’ approach, especially when you consider that you never hear him (nor do witnesses state hearing him) yell AT the officer, only that he couldn’t breath and then calling for his father. As far as schizophrenia goes, his history actually seems to point toward more negative behavior (ie. lacking care for personal hygiene, quality of life, etc) symptoms than anything else.

This makes me question how the officers approached him in the first place. I think they got out of the car intending to hard ass him. I bet if you pull a few records, this would not be the first example of such an attitude.

I know, in the grand scheme of things, this doesn’t matter very much, but as my name suggests, it’s been bugging me. I have to wonder why Kelly’s lack of trouble with the law (in terms of attitude towards officers) was never questioned.

Officer Jay Cicinelli gives new meaning to the idiom “One eyed Monster.” After being shot several times and losing an eye, psychologically this man should not have continued as a beat cop. It’s more than likely the shooting left him bitter and angry. He seems to have murderous rage and lack of self control and the LAPD recognized it and bought him out. They could see that he would be a future liability.

does anybody remember there is no conclusive cause of death listed in the death of the suspect in this case???? can’t all you “experts” out there at least wait until the coroner rules on the cause of death before you conclude his death was a unlawful homicide????

COD was pretty obvious to the guy who filled out the form in the hospital when they unplugged him. Neat how a black guy can have his DNA in the hands of the prosecutor within 24 hours of a crime, but the white cop gets what… 3 months of work, before he even has to worry. No wonder white guys get better lawyers and less time.

Everyone, BOYCOTT FULLERTON BUSINESSES, especially in the downtown area. Do your shopping, buy your gas, eat your meal, spend your weekend evening in the closest neighboring city. I really hate to do this to Fullerton businesses, but unfortunately the threat of lost revenue is the only thing that will prompt the city council to action in cleaning up the Fullerton PD. All top heads in the department must roll because they are all now accessories to murder in helping to cover up the nature of this crime. We must seriously consider disbanding the department and replacing it with OC Sheriff. Boycott. Spread the word.

Here’s how to serve a recall. You need 20 signatures of registered voters on the Notice of Intention – the same number of voters needed to get yourself on the ballot (the proponent included, so only 19 other signatures). This could be done, for example, during public comment at a City Council meeting, with the signatures taken in the lobby or outside while waiting. That would be dramatic. (Click on the link for more details.)

Serve the Notice of Intention
A copy of the Notice of Intention must be served by personal
delivery or by certified mail on the officer sought to be recalled. In
addition, the original of the Notice of Intention, along with an
affidavit of the time and manner of service, must be filed within 7
days with the appropriate elections official. A separate Notice of
Intention must be filed for each officer sought to be recalled.
[See Exhibits A and B] (§11021)

[…]

Content of Notice of Intention
The Notice of Intention must contain all of the following:
(a) the name and title of the officer to be recalled;
(b) a statement, not over 200 words in length, of the reasons for
recall;
(c) the printed name, signature, and residence address of each
of the proponents. If a proponent cannot receive mail at his
or her residence address, the Notice of Intention must also
contain his or her mailing address. The number of signers
shall be 10 or equal to the number of signatures required to
be filed on the nomination paper of the officer sought to be
recalled, whichever is greater. Each proponent must be a
registered voter in the electoral jurisdiction;
(d) the provisions of Elections Code §11023, which permit
incumbents who are the subject of recall to file an answer to
the notice and prescribes the method for doing so.

[…]

NOTICE OF INTENTION TO CIRCULATE RECALL PETITION
1
TO THE HONORABLE __________(see footnote
2
)________________________: Pursuant to
Section 11020, California Elections Code, the undersigned registered qualified voters of ______(see_
footnote
3
)___, in the State of California, hereby give notice that we are the proponents of a recall petition
and that we intend to seek your recall and removal from the office of ______ (see footnote
4
)______ , in
_____(see footnote 3) , California, and to demand election of a successor in that office (see footnote
5
).
The grounds for the recall are as follows:
(STATE GROUNDS, 200 WORDS OR LESS)
The printed names, signatures, and residence addresses of the proponents are as follows:(The
least possible number of proponents is 10, however, more than 10 may be required by law.)
NAME ADDRESS SIGNATURE
1. …
2. …
3. …
4. …
…………….
…………….
10. …. (or more. See footnote
6
)
Telephone number to contact proponents (optional)( )_________-_________________
A copy of this notice and proof of service will be filed with the ___(see footnote
7
)_____.
Elections Code section 11023. (a) Within seven days after the filing of the notice of intention, the officer
sought to be recalled may file with the elections official, or in the case of a state officer, the Secretary of
State, an answer, in not more than 200 words, to the statement of the proponents.
(b) If an answer is filed, the officer shall, within seven days after the filing of the notice of intention, also
serve a copy of it, by personal delivery or by certified mail, on one of the proponents named in the notice
of intention.
(c) The answer shall be signed and shall be accompanied by the printed name and business or
residence address of the officer sought to be recalled.

Daniel Hofmann
There where all those cop cars there has to be video in the dash on all of them.
1 ·
· Reply · Saturday at 8:56am

Kate Tippett-Bowles · Works at I wreaked havoc on many places.
OMG, The first sentence says the FBI is investigating a “scuffle”…give me a break! How about a vicious murder? Where is the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) to fight on behalf of the mentally ill as Mr. Thomas was a known schizophrenic? What the hell does it matter if he had some questionable belongings in his backpack? Does a citizen of the United States relinquish rights to a fair trial or expect a beating resulting in death for “possibly” (nothing proven yet) committing a petty crime? And this man was known to the police. Six burly police officers with batons, flashlights and taser guns needed to beat this skinny young man to death…REALLY? God help us all!
· Reply · Saturday at 10:05am

Kate Tippett-Bowles · Works at I wreaked havoc on many places.
Sorry folks, I know this is unpleasant, but don’t we owe it to our fellow citizens, and ourselves, to share blatant acts of abuse and injustice?
· Reply · Saturday at 10:13am

Guido Sarducci · Hollywood, California
This is the most biased, POS reporting I’ve ever seen. The dolts call this a “scuffle” and say Thomas was “fighting with police. Then you look at the picture and it looks like a gang beating. This wasn’t a scuffle. They kicked and beat the life out of him and he was helpless against them. Do your job.
· Reply · Saturday at 9:31am

Mary-Lynn Gregory
KFI reported that a desk sergeant was seeing this live; can anyone familiar w/law enforcement comment why the sergeant didn’t tell officers to stop? Did anyone tell these guys to stop? What is the procedure after a person is down?
· Reply · Saturday at 8:36am

Phaedra Opielski · Universal City, Texas
The way I understand it, the jackbooted thugs responsible for beating the life out of this man are still on duty pending the outcome of the investigation. THAT’S sick.
· Reply · Saturday at 9:31am

Linda Hadman · Works at Medical (can’t make a dime anymore) transcriptionist
Autopsy was inconclusive? God just look at the picture! Heartbreaking video with Kelly screaming over and over for his dad…
· Reply · Saturday at 9:45am

Ron Rhoades · Savanna High
SICK COPS
· Reply · Saturday at 6:37am

David Beeson · University of Florida
If I were dictator of the world, I’d put them in a colosseum and make these cops fight each other for their life. Seems fitting. Otherwise use them as props for the next Saw movie. Vengeance solves nothing, but we need some kind of a deterrant and we all know these thugs aren’t going to contribute anything to society otherwise.
· Reply · Saturday at 7:49pm

Doug Goulding · Tustin, California
This is a very sad and scary incident. There are obviously some anger issues and abuse going on with one or more of these officers. I hope they can pinpoint the main cop that was responsible for this and put him away for a long time.
· Reply · Sunday at 8:10pm

Lynn Chidester · Works at Fullerton Alano Club
Craig this was someone who came to the FAC on Malden. He was NEVER violent. He would pay for a cup of coffee eand sit quietly during the meetings. It is an outrage!
· Reply · Saturday at 5:32pm

Lynn Chidester · Works at Fullerton Alano Club
We have some really great police officers in Fullerton that are obviously here to” protect & serve”. This is giving them a bad name as well.
· Reply · Saturday at 5:44pm

Blues Bob · Works at Big W
Kelly used to wander into meetings in downtown all the time. He would eat a bunch of cookies and hang out for awhile. He seemed like a very quiet, polite, homeless man. I couldn’t see him doing anything to warrant his death. But I’ll reserve judgement because I also think the Fullerton police are not a bad bunch of cops.
· Reply · Saturday at 6:18pm

Robert Sanchez · Paradise, California
That sucks, they are stupid for giving one cop administrative leave, All of them should go to prision!
· Reply · Saturday at 3:06pm

Adam Hodgson · Cal State Fullerton
A scuffle? This is a scuffle? I would hate to see what more would need to be done for NBC to label it more than a scuffle.
· Reply · Saturday at 1:10pm

James Anthony Provenzino · Vice President and General Manager at DMS Facility Services
The chief of the Fullerton Police has to take responsibility for the lack of training of the officers and supervisors and more importatnly the attempt to cover up. THE CHIEF HAS TO RESIGN OR BE FIRED NOW!
· Reply · about an hour ago

Cesar James Pla · California state university, fullerton
This is absolutely ridiculous and absurd, to think the ones that are supposed to be protecting us are only hurting us. This is going to make people have less confidence in the police, and I don’t blame them, this man shouldn’t have been killed, a perfect example of corrupt power and corrupt cops.
· Reply · Saturday at 10:58am

many of us watch COPS tv series on saturday evening ,showing law enforcement from all across this country. the arrest techniques that we see are appropriate and suspects never get beaten down. they are tasered if needed but handcuffed as soon as possible.for the most part the officers and deputies are professional and see to it that the suspects get there day in court. fullerton pd’s behavior was totally the opposite of what we watch on COPS.

michael savage :
many of us watch COPS tv series on saturday evening ,showing law enforcement from all across this country. the arrest techniques that we see are appropriate and suspects never get beaten down. they are tasered if needed but handcuffed as soon as possible.for the most part the officers and deputies are professional and see to it that the suspects get there day in court. fullerton pd’s behavior was totally the opposite of what we watch on COPS.

YEP THATS WHAT I SAID
AND IVE WATCHED THAT SHOW FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS.
MAYBE THATS WHAT FPD NEEDS IS TO BE SOLD TO A REALITY TV SHOW, CALLED “COPS……. ABOVE THE LAW”
STARRING THE TERMINATOR, ONE EYED JC THE INTIMEDATER, CO- STARING SEELERS AND GOODWHENCH
WITH GUEST APPERANCES BY
HE-HAW, THROW A BABY IN THE BATH!!!
DICK JONES
COMING TO YOU
THIS FALL
ON BET

Ever have a nice intelligent conversation with someone, where there is a good exchange of ideas and viewpoints that helps resolve the issue and avoid future flare ups? Ever do it at 150db while the person next to you is whispering?

They biggest POS from OC register boards go to: :
conann
9:19 PM on August 1, 2011
For all you idots that want to pay this family before the investigation is complete get a clue. The money is our hard earned tax dollars. Money right out of your pocket.
Give that money to a family that wrote thier own kid off years ago would be disgusting.
And the first thing the father does is start throwing around dollar amounts. Real class act.

This sub-hum-an POS
cant even get his facts straight.
Ron Thompson did not take no settlement.
And its mr conann’s very own pose of corrupt fpd croonies that tryed to throw 1million to Mr. Thomas.
Just goes to show how moronic these pig swine and followers think.

@ conann you fuck’n moron can you understand that 6 TAX paid low life bottom feeders from the FPD committed a homicide murder by rogue cops out of there minds this has gone global the world knows what these Fullerton cops have done.And all the FPD can say is our moral our moral waaa waaaaaa every one of you did this because of your silence and disgusting arrogance if i was a Fullerton cop i would hid my head in shame i think i would look for work else were preferably were you don’t carry any weapons and have any kind of authority over people.

Kudos to the FPD for proving to Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, North Korea, Iran, and Syria they are a bunch’a sissies next to America! And, thanks to all the American police, nationwide, for solidly demonstrating you don’t have to live in a totalitarian country to know how to cover your rear. If you believe you need to protect ‘bad apples’ to protect yourself, you must be a ‘bad apple.’We need some serious police house cleaning, nationwide. In the interests of reducing governments’ debt, I propose retirement cuts for every officer who has ever exerted excessive force in an arrest. NO retirement for any officer involved in the death of a non-PROVEN violent criminal. Perhaps even confiscation of all real-estate owned by corrupt police chiefs, and other corrupt city officials? Hey, It could do wonders for failing city budgets.

Can’t help wondering how the librul ME-dia has managed to restrain themselves over this incident. I swear, it sure would be nice for CNN and MSNBC to give it a break and report on something else for a change, like maybe the continuing Congressional self-diddling in DC?

There are more ways to cow a nation and make it subservient. Not all involve guns. The best ones involve so much choice and freedom that everyone is stupid and chooses McDonalds and the couch. Now throw in a media machine which will blare Democrap/Repubican stuff all day and concentrate on race relations and you have a nice docile crowd of pigeons.

This bus driver deserves alot of credit for thinking start the camera andfor his detailed interview with the passagers.He relized this would be important evidence. One of the heros of this story in my opinion.

and from personal experience , i have been a victim and have friends who have been victims of the FPD, and have experienced cover ups and seen them plant drugs, and change medical records to show they did not break my bones.

conann, conann, oh conann, big tough scary man with big tough scary name….to compensate for the embarassment between your legs i’ll bet! conann old boy you have been heard on this board, judged and found to be wanting…Now stop resisting! Stop resisting! Get out of here conann! Go on run along..

Beware: The wrath of khan, jk. Lt. you are a silver tongued devil, “Dont get me wrong I think the FPD can possibly in a slight way handle people roughly…” But judging by your post, I’ll bet you dont do much first guessin’ niether do ya? I dont want to get my face pounded in so lets just say our fare thee wells. You and conaan would both be good for a laugh if this wasnt such a grave topic. Now please leave Lt., adults are trying to have a discussion!

Would these cops have done this same beating, if the person was wearing a three piece suit, clean shaven and articulate?! The real problem lies with the bias of the FPD towards the homeless. I believe the cops are told by “higher ups”, not to treat any homeless person with diginity and respect. BUT to do whatever it takes….to move them out of the community, and/or whatever else it takes. I challenge the so-called “good” cops in this community, to break the “Blue Code of Silence”, especially as it pertains to this horrific murder!!

The bias is in your country and is empowered and enforced by your media. Women are worth more than men in combat situations. Hell, they’re even worth more in the eyes of the law. Judges are constantly told “but he’s a family man” like that makes someone worth more because he hasn’t taken his pecker out of his pants.

I am a student at AIU and am doing a paper on Police Misconduct. I live in Northern Ca. and this story didn’t hit the papers up here. I think that all lof the officers involved should be arrested, tried and convicted of murder and the Police Chief be held accountable for their actions. I would appreciate it very much if someone could keep me posted on the outcome of this investigation or any other information that has been made public thus far so I can complete my paper.

Hey cyclops, I’ve read on this thread someone called you a one eyed monster, thats terrible, thats what I refer to my phalus as. So as not to disrespect my phalus, my phalus will henceforth be known as my Cecinelli

I was in fullerton last Friday barhopping for friends bday the cops were not protecting us me and my fiancee were almost assaulted by gangbangers walking to our car thank god I have a gun in my car but its scary to think if a fpd would have seen me with the gun i would prolly have got shot were are they when u need them this happened right in front of the bank of america in dtf they were prolly busy beating someone else to death no arresting real criminals … My fiancee and I are boycotting fpd we will not pull over or listen to the orders of any fpd

I want to thank everyone who has responded to my post. I thought my police department was corrupt, but fullerton has them beat. Any misconduct by the police or any branch of government needs to be held accountable, I don’t care who it is. The first person who comment back to me asked if Obama has made any comments about this incident. I haven’t seen any and he probable won’t either. My opinion is he represents our country and HIS house definitely needs to be cleaned. As citizens of this country and the towns we leave in, we need to take back control of our lives and put people back in office that are for the people and not the politicians.

That OCTA bus video is just as chilling as the video below it. Besides posthumous justice for Kelly, of course, I only hope that somehow, Friends of Fullerton – or at least someone “reliable” or some “reliable”, has the contact information for the witnesses who spoke in the bus. It’s all well and good that they made these recorded statements, but I’m guessing their statements would have much more weight in a trial given as live, sworn testimony. If not Friends of Fullerton, then hell . . . John & Ken should have the contact information.

i lived in fullerton my whole life and never thought i would see something as horrible as this i moved to nc about 6 years ago and was thinking about coming back home to raise my children but in light of this there is no way i would raise my kids in fullerton my heart and prayers go out to this man and his family

It makes me seriouly sick. and very sad. this will not only bring down the nasty animals .who seem to have mountains of senile aggression. who did this to a human being. they are probably outcasts as far as their work makes are concerned . its time to own up now. RIP

My response follows: In a word, ‘animal rage.’ Okay, that’s two words. To add a few more; a sense of entitlement to commit acts of gratuitous violence due to many decades of allowance (some would even say encouragement) by those we elect to rule over us at all levels of government from local to national, plus the tacit approval of national and local medias through non-coverage, and last but not least the errant belief by all citizens that it only happens to people who somehow ‘deserve it!’ This news has been totally blocked out by CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, and of course, Fox, while they all chase after Congress and the President, sniffing their dirty behinds like the craven dogs they are.

My brother was an alcoholic who lived on the streets many years. Fortunately the police did not succeed in killing him before he managed to kill himself through years of self-induced exposure to a toxic legal substance: alcohol. He was never beaten as badly as Kelly Thomas, thank the gods! But, many times I saw his face so badly beaten by police I could not recognize the gentle-spirited little brother I so dearly loved.

American police are as much despicable animals as any police in China, North Korea, Iran or Syria, and WE THE PEOPLE allow it by our laziness and fear of media created ‘criminal/terrorist’ boogymen. America’s police forces are no different from the Hells Angels of yesteryear, except by the badges and blind trust we foist undeservedly upon them. They are an extremely violent tight knit gang who are not here to enforce the laws, but instead to enforce the WILL of those we elect at the polls to dominate us and to protect their own arses. It was not America that inspired recent non-violent revolutions in the Middle East, as the media would have you believe. It was the myth of a FREEDOM loving America propagated internationally over decades through our government and their slavering media lackys. Sorry, I realize your question was rhetorical, but I’ve been following the discussion at the Friends of Fullerton’s Future board since you first brought this to my attention, and I finally just needed to speak my mind. You offered the opportunity. Please remember to read my words in the context of someone who has a degree in film and media and has independently continued studying these subjects long past graduation from college. If you’d like to read any more of my thoughts? Simply ask, but I’ll not force them on you by any means. Besides few people go online to learn anything. The vast majority simply want an avenue of expression for their own cherished opinions. I’ll understand perfectly if you’ve already read more than you care to.

All the best,

One last thought. The photo at the top is beautiful, in that, by the time that picture was taken, Kelly Thomas was beyond the ability of base animals to inflict any further pain upon him, forever. RIP Kelly Thomas. God rest yet another gentle soul brought to an undeservedly horrific end by police in the ‘Land of the Free and the Home of the ‘Brave.” Curse you Fullerton Police for the filthy cowardly animals you truly are.

This is not Science Fiction, folks. This is REALITY. Get INVOLVED. “Let George do it?” No one is going to save us, but us! Write your representatives and express your outrage, Don’t just post it here. They don’t read this. Write/call the news channels and newspapers, demand to know why they are not covering this travesty of justice. Write Obama and ask him about his campaign promises of transparency in government and the “Audacity of Hope.” Get off your duff and get INVOLVED in your own salvation! Save yourself or you are surely doomed.

“Premise Five: The property of those higher on the hierarchy is more valuable than the lives of those below…If those below damage the property of those above, those above may kill or otherwise destroy the lives of those below. This is called justice.”

That premise is where terrorism comes in…. note how if you remove the names and beliefs of those in any “terrorism” story are removed and you put in Person A, Race D, Religion H. The story and justice are easy to see, but put the names back in place and many disagree and then justify the double standard. Try it with any story from Israel, post it, get feedback, then put the names back in. You’ll see that the morals of the U.S. is far far far from what they state.

The problem with the Fullerton police can be traced to an evil communistic policing model which they have embraced called COPS (Community Oriented Policing)–the goals of which are NOT to enforce law, but to subvert law in an effort to transform traditional society. COPS isn’t traditional law enforcement, it’s anarchistic and treasonous. Fullerton has adopted this model and you can read more about it here:http://www.newswithviews.com/community_policing/community_policing.htm

I hope this senseless death of this young man gets the attention and outrage that it deserves. As a mother of a son, who I lost to the streets (drugs) I used to hope and pray that he would get arrested just so I would know he was safe. Now after watching this in horror I am glad he never did get arrested. This poor Father now has to live with the fact of hearing his son’s screams for him for the rest of his life.
This is police brutality and use of excessive force at its worst. The officers seemed to have a “mob” mentality and almost took a perverse enjoyment out of murdering this young man. Take them OFF paid leave and file MURDER charges. I am sick to death of all this police brutality going on in all these districts…….Charge them with Murder!

I have done some research and found that the police who are involved with any kind of misconduct are protected by what they call Police Disclosure Laws. This means that there will be no information to the public until a full investigation is done and then it is up to the DA or the Police Commissioner to release the findings or keep it secret. This is what really needs to be changed and then maybe we could control the misconduct. We will never be able to stop it but we can try to control it and hold the officers who do this kind of thing accountable for their actions.

How difficult would it be for you to find out if other countries, like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, or non-English speaking European countries, like Amsterdam, Germany, France, etc. Have similar laws protecting their miscreant (bad apple) police officers? Or, is America the only ‘FREE’ Nation so stupid? Would love to know, but haven’t a clue how to go about researching this one. Maybe another paper in it for you? Perhaps a travel grant for post grad research? Luck happens most often for people prepared for it.

Feel free to e-mail me. Would love to be kept apprised of your research papers.

Hi Xer, thank you for your kind words. There is so much information on the internet all you have to do is google it under Police misconduct. It literally makes me sick when I read all the misconduct not only in our country but all over the world. You see what has happened is since the so call 9/11 terrorist attacks and most of our men going to war, left the police departments in need to fill those vacancies, so they ended up hiring officers without the proper training and without the pyschological training they need. This is sad. Since the 9/11 attacks there has been a 25% increase in Police misconduct between the years of 2001-2007. The FBI tries to stay on top of these cases making sure a victims civil rights are not violated but it is very hard if they find there investigations to be valid it is still up to the prosecutors and the judical system to try these officers who use this type of conduct and most cases never get tried. The Police Disclosure Laws protect these officers and everyone who wears a badge and it more or less gives them Carte Blanche.
I was born in Germany and came to this country not long after the war, I can remember my father talking about dictorship and I remember him saying 35 yrs. ago that this country will fall under a dictorship. I have to believe that is he was right. Look what is happening to this country now, our rights are being taken away without people even realizing what is going on, and that is because of what the government tells the media to print. Making the people believe that things will get better is just a ploy to insert their agenda. After all aren’t we owned by China now? Why does China keep buying our debt? Stop and think about it.
Here are some websites you can check out about the Police Dosclosure Laws;
POLICE MISCONDUCT AND PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY http://www.wendymcelroy.com/print.php?news.3350
POLICE BRUTALITY CASES ON RISE SINCE 9/11;
USATODAY, 12/17/2007http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm
I appreciate your support b/c it helps me to continue my research and will help me earn my creditials in Criminal Justice. Again thank you for your kind words.

Haven’t been in school for many years, but still love to learn. Between yours and links provided by JusticeForAll I’ve quite a bit of ‘homework’ to do. So much to read! But, as said I do love learning, so please keep posting your informative posts. Just wish it were a little easier to again find threads I’ve been reading before here. It would make continuity easier to maintain. Again, I’d truly love to read any papers you write on these subjects, either for school or publication.

Hi Xer, how are you? I just finished my homework for this week and it was all about referencing books, periodicals and journals, it was very boring but had to do it. I was looking for more information about foreign countries and if they allow this type of conduct and to be honest with you I can’t find anything on their policies for misconduct. I guess that is their way of protecting their own also.
I did find out though through my research that there are policies that each police department must abide by, but don’t. I have read articles where police misconduct took place and when the investigation was complete and the policies were brought to the attention of the Chief of Police or Commissioner their way out of being accountable was they didn’t know the policies were in effect.
If the Cheif of police doesn’t know his policies and how to react to them he has no business being
Chief of police. I believe that when misconduct happens like it did in the Kelly Thomas case, the Chief of police should also be charged with the crime his officers did. If that was to happen, a lot of this would stop. After all, The Chief of police is responsibile for each of his officers, so would it not make sense to charge him also with the crimes the officers committed? Start charging the Chief of police with crimes committed by his officers and see how things would change.
I also found out that if charges are filed against an officer, the investigation goes to an outside agency, and the by an outside agency doing the investigation and prosecuting , the case get turned over to the Feds, which the officer would be tried in Federal court and if convicted does Federal time. That is so wrong.
If these six cops get charged it should stay at a state level and they need to be put in a level 4
state pen, and maybe run into some of the people they put away. Wouldn’t that be a sight to see?

From my time living in Toronto, that police force was overseen by a completely separate civilian commitee. Any police misconduct I had seen was investigated by the provincial force, O.P.P.. Of course I could be wrong, but I haven’t been young and interested in police misconduct in years. Don’t ask. 😉

The investigation of Kelly Thomas’s murder needs to start at the top; Chief Sellers. Why didn’t he suspend the six officer involved immediately? My guess is that what those officers did; beat to death an unarmed man, is inline with his own professional and moral values. What other excuse could he have for trying to payoff the Thomas family and keeping those “Cowards with badges” on the street? I would also suggest that the investigation goes deep into his professional past positions in Los Alamitos and Seal Beach. Last, to the six “Thugs with Badges”; you are no different than the thugs who beat Bryan Stow at Dodger Stadium.

Hi Michael, I totally agree with what you say. I don’t k now much about this case only what I have seen on the videos and have read b/c it was never broadcasted in northern Ca. There is so much corruption going on in the Police departments it isn’t even funny. I feel the officers who did this to Kelly should get beat down every day of their lives as a rememberence of their conduct. They should be put on trial for the world to see and when found guilty they need to go to a level 4 pen and put in general population, and let the prison gangs have a shot at them. They should get their faces smashed into the concrete everyday until they beg to die. This really makes me sick, but I will really be surprised if this case will be made public,because of the way the law protects their officers. There is a dire need for change in all levels of the city and county government. I pray for Kelly’s family and I hope the dad files a civil suits against the city the Police department and against the six officers.

Don’t have to do all that… just smack em around until you believe their cries for “dad! dad! dad!”. Heal them up in the hospital, then off you go again lookin for Dad, prisoner 8573820.

As a father of two, my heart breaks hearing that young man call for his Dad. I honestly don’t know what I would have done had I been there. Probably end up shot or tased. I’m not a Christian, but in this case I would have no problem morally administering an eye for an eye.

Thanks for posting this. I needed to see this so I could wake up to the awful situation that has become a norm in some metropolitan and rural districts. This is absolutely unacceptable. Every person deserves some level of respect at all times. Someone who is no longer resisting arrest should not be treated like this.

I saw this on the news tonight here in Missouri. This has happened to my homeless brother recently that lived in Honolulu. He was incarcerated and had been for 2 weeks, and died in jail on July 2, 2011. I would like any information on this story that I can get!!! I suspect foul play in my brother’s death too. He also had mental problems and was homeless as well. He was 63 yr.s old…………If anyone knows Kelly Thomas’s Dad please contact me if you would. Thank you.

This is a more realistic article then any printed locally…. and puts a human touch on the life Kelly Thomas did have, before he was murdered/beaten. This article was sent to you by someone who found it on SFGate.
The original article can be found on SFGate.com here:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2011/08/03/national/a162140D08.DTL
———————————————————————
Wednesday, August 3, 2011 (AP)
Dad: ‘Shock’ over son who died after arrest
By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press

(08-03) 18:30 PDT Fullerton, Calif. (AP) —
The 37-year-old schizophrenic man who died after a violent police
confrontation that was caught on a bystander’s cell phone was loved and
cared for by his family but chose to live on the streets, his father said
Wednesday.
Kelly Thomas died last month, five days after he ran from officers who
were trying to search his backpack. Witnesses said officers beat him and
repeatedly used a stun gun as he cried out for his father, sparking
outrage in this quiet college town and causing a city councilwoman to call
for the police chief’s ouster.
He suffered severe head and neck injuries in the beating and was taken off
life support on July 10.
“When I arrived at the hospital to see him, I honestly thought that gang
bangers had got a hold of him like the cowards sometimes do and just beat
him with a baseball bat in the face,” said his father, former Orange
County sheriff’s deputy Ron Thomas. “Immediately my thoughts were to get
with Fullerton police … and I didn’t learn until a certain amount of
hours later the truth. That put me in absolute shock.”
An attorney representing Fullerton police, Michael D. Schwartz, said in a
statement Wednesday that “public perception of officers’ trying to control
a combative, resistive suspect rarely conform to those officers’ training,
experiences, and what those officers were experiencing at the time or
reality.”
Thomas aspired to be a wildland firefighter until he began showing
symptoms of schizophrenia in his early 20s, Ron Thomas said. The disease
robbed him of his ambitions and left him wandering the streets when he
wasn’t in jail for violations from public urination to assault with a
deadly weapon.
One of the hardest parts of his death has been hearing their son described
as homeless, the father said. Family members constantly visited him to
provide food and offer shelter if he wanted it, he added.
“That’s the heartbreaking part for all of us. We all have ideas of what
we’d like our kids to be like and to do in life. With Kelly, we didn’t get
to realize that and it constantly broke our heart,” he said. “Kelly wasn’t
homeless at all, he had so many homes, but he wanted to be a drifter and
he did.”
His son was diagnosed with schizophrenia after he was arrested for a minor
violation and placed into a county treatment program, Ron Thomas said. He
went to a live-in facility that monitored his medication, he said.
He did well while he was on his medication and briefly held jobs at a gas
station and at a printing facility. He entered a training program for the
California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection to become a wildland
firefighter — his lifelong dream.
But Kelly Thomas would stop taking his medications once he began to
thrive, thinking he no longer needed them — and soon, he was back on
the streets and in and out of jail. His mother sought a restraining order
against him in December 2010 after he refused to leave her front porch,
took off his clothes and urinated by the front door, according to court
papers.
Officers confronted him on July 5 while investigating reports of a man
burglarizing cars near the Fullerton Transportation Center, a hub for
buses and commuter trains where homeless people congregate.
Bus surveillance video released Monday showed witnesses talking to the
driver of a bus that arrived minutes after the confrontation. Upon hearing
their accounts, the driver told the passengers that the tape would be
marked and saved, and noted the date and time of the recording.
The video showed a woman who appears upset saying: “The cops are kicking
this poor guy over there. … He’s almost halfway dead.”
A male witness says the man, identified as Thomas, was sitting on a bench
when he was approached by two officers and ran from them. The man says
police used a stun gun on Thomas six times.
“They caught him, pound his face, pound his face against the curb … and
they beat him up,” the man said. “They beat him up, and then all the cops
came and they hogtied him, and he was like, `Please God! Please Dad!'”
Another video taken by a bystander on his cell phone shows the
confrontation from a distance. A man can be heard screaming over a fast,
clicking sound that those heard on the tape say is a stun gun being used.
The police department has turned over the investigation to the Orange
County district attorney’s office and placed on paid administrative leave
six officers involved in the beating. The FBI also launched a probe into
whether the officers violated Thomas’ civil rights in the incident.
People with untreated mental illness make up about one-third of the
nation’s 600,000 homeless, said Kristina Ragosta, legislative and policy
counsel for the Treatment Advocacy Center.
The police department is cooperating with the investigation, police Sgt.
Andrew Goodrich said. Chief Michael Sellers did not wish to address the
call for his resignation, Goodrich said.
He added that officers receive training on how to deal with the mentally
ill and the homeless.
But more needs to be done by police departments to train officers in how
to recognize symptoms and deal with people with mental illness, said
Elaine Deck, the senior program manager at the International Association
of Chiefs of Police.
Sometimes, an untrained officer can make a situation worse, she said.
“Handcuffing them may escalate the behavior where the officer may think
they are trying to calm the person,” Deck said. “They may not know that
this may actually escalate a response.”
______

Crime, despair… this is not how man was supposed to live. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can’t stop you, then you become something else entirely.

I have gotten involved and started a petition to Congress to enact a new law (Kelly Thomas Law) that would hold other police officers accountable and allow harsher sentences if they witness these kinds of brutality and do not intervene. This has been going on way too long and stiffer laws need to be in place to prevent this. Go to petition2congress and do a search on Kelly Thomas Law to sign. Thanks,

This is NATIONWIDE. Here in Denver, we have dealt with several incidents of police brutality against all of our communities (i.e. Latino, African-American, Caucasian) for several years now. Cops are now trying to take away a citizen’s right to video these incidents–when that is all we have to hold them accountable.

Take a look at my book “Enemy in Blue” on Amazon. It is about an incident of police brutality caught on video, and the resulting attempts to disseminate versus suppress the video, as well as the trial of the cop. I wrote it because of incidents like these all over the country.

Well Enemy, this has been endemic for your “justice” system since the inception of your system. Only now, the sheeple can actually get video to corroborate, if they’re not too scared and keep it from the intimidating officer later.

It isn’t going to do any good to send the Chief of Police an e mail, I am sure his e mail is blown up with the public’s comments. His way of dealing with this issue is going on vacation from what I have read. He would be smart to find his self a deep hole and crawl into it. I think the Fullerton Police Department should be disolved and let the Sheriff’s department run a substation out of that city, then maybe there can be some real law and order for the people. I don’t know anything about the Sheriff’s department down there, but they have got to be better than FPD is. I think that the citizens of Fullerton should recall the major and all city councilman. I don’t think that there would be a problem getting the signatures needed for such a cause.

whats being done about this? saw the youtube vid and countless articles but i still cant tell whats being done, the cops goin to jail? being put on trail? anything? i live a long way away but i would really like to know. what they did was monsterous and should have never been done, it shouldnt have even crossed their minds. they should have been stripped of their badge immediately and the investigation should have maybe taken a few days at the most, been put in prison for murder and that be the end of it. this has been going on for what, a month? please fill me in?

This is the most horrific story I have ever read. Six police officers, who the public entrusts to protect us, viciously and repeatedly hog tie, bludgeon on the head, and taser a defenseless and helpless person until that person has suffered enough blood loss and brain trauma to become brain dead, even when this defenseless person is crying for mercy, for God, for his Dad! Some higher body such as the California State Police or the US Dept. of Justice has to intervene and take over the Fullerton Police Dept., which clearly believe they are above the law and act as thugs with impunity. The police chief and his underlings should be fired immediately for allowing such a barbaric police state to thrive. The names of these officers should be released, and they should be banned from ever living in civilized society again.

well dumbass, do the same google search for…
Gun crime
Assaults
percentage of population in jail
percentage of population being screwed by big business/government
percentage of sheeple in the U.S. (where you can’t smoke pot, be gay, be non-Christian or most other things) who believe they’re free
and lastly;
things you can do in Canada and still be free

At that point you can comment on what he’s saying. Now without the vitriol, I agree with what he’s saying, but also contend that Americans are great friends. I have lots. 🙂

Officer Jay Cicinelli was there
Officer Kenton Hampton was there
Officer Manny Ramos was there
Officer Joe Wolfe was there
Officer James Blatney was there

The sixth officer would have been a sargent called to the scene due to the use of a Taser. There are two patrol sargents not reporting for duty at the moment who may have been on duty that night. When we figure out which one was there, we’ll let you know.

obviously if cops keep fucking up we need to change the system so where we can trust cops. remember cops are people too and as humans we know humans can be fucked up in the head like officer cicinelli or cicirelli. fullerton = fullofshit

The officers should definitely be charged with murder, but the people who are investigating the murder are people in the Fullerton police department. The police chief there doesn’t even have the balls to speak to the public and the city’s own council members don’t trust him.

My understanding was that police officers were there to protect and to serve.

Their crime should be punishable by death, instead they are on PAID administrative leave. They are being paid for murdering a person. That’s our tax dollars paying for murderers to sit at home and think about what they did wrong.

If anything they will face social punishment. If their faces and names are released they will simply be recognized as one of the six former officers who aided in a homeless man’s murder.

Withhold your taxes at the end of the Fullerton business year, put them in an escrow account… and file a grievance against him for unsatisfactory job performance. Judge can’t be pissy, cuz the taxes are ready to be paid…. don’t know if it’ll work… but its somehting!

We are raised to trust the police and believe that they are good people that are there to help and protect us. I do believe that most are. It is the police that are responsible for that loss of trust. Why should we trust them when they do not police themselves? They do not cooperate with their own internal police and and are not held to the same laws that we are. These 6 police officers should not be on administrative leave, they should be in jail while the case is being investigated. We would be!

the jack booted thugs shoud be arrested like any other person who commits murder. takened to jail and go through the system. not some fucking loa w/pay. there was no resistence. pathetic excuse for beating a man to death. each and every one of the fullerton six should be beat and tased at least six times. what pieces of shit you are. i pity your children the legacy you leave. RIP KELLY THOMPSON

What I find particularly disturbing about the way this case/investigation is being handled is that we’re being told that investigators are waiting for the results of the autopsy and toxicology studies on the corpse. However, in this case, since Kelly Thomas was alive and under intensive medical care for five days, the results of the autopsy and tox tests are likely meaningless. It’s known with certainty that Kelly Thomas died because he was taken off life support due to a likely irreversible coma. What is usually of interest from an autopsy is the state of the person during the interaction with the police. In this case, the autopsy will tell the state of the person after five days of intensive medical care. The usual playbook in a case like this is for tox test to show some sort of drug or other abnormality and for the police to get an expert witness to say that that’s what contributed to his death. The doctors who treated Kelly for five days know with certainty what the impact of the beating on Kelly’s physical state. No autopsy data can override that. I suspect this is why Ron Thomas is so confident that there is a capital murder case here. He’s holding this data like a trump card.

We all know that the cause of death was being beat ansd tased to death. The autopsy and toxicolgy report are meaningless like you say. It is just another way to come up with some justification for the police to get away with this type of conduct. Like I have mentioned in another post yesterday, the way to stop this is to charge the Chief of Police with murder since he is responsible for his officers, and once that takes place, this would stop in a heart beat.
I have also read during my research for my paper that these kinds of complaints take up to six months with the best police departments and up to a year for other departments to even start an investigation. That is why we never hear what the outcome is to the officers that commit misconduct. They figure that six months to a year down the road the public will have forgotten the incident.

a good decent cop tried to stop them and put handcuffs on his because he was lifeless but the cops kept beating him and the blood was splattering all over him so he pulled back

yes.. blame this on 150lb violent homeless person..

If you read all the shit out there now showing that the cops coached local businesses to call in the homeless under suspicion of burglary instead of just pandering then they can really beat the fuck out of them..

I can only imagine you or your family member being Kelly Thomas and you wishing people would stand up for you against an insane society

You must be related to one of these cops b/c even if these facts are true, it still doesn’t justisfy the beating and tasing Thomas got. Please don’t try to make it sound like these six were only doing their job, b/c the way I see it there are levels for the use of excessive force and if these six were true to protecting and serving the public the murder would of never happened. The FDP is a police department that is off the hook b/c the Cheif of Police condons this type of action. And if these officers were in shape instead of being overweight they wouldn’t of had to call for back, they would of been able to control the situation. Being overweight does nothing for the breathing so they couldn’t control the situation and had to call for back-up.
One thing I have learned about Police officers is they way they approach a person or vehicle, if they approach in a decent manner most of the time it is returned by the person. I know if a cop comes at me sideways, my natural reaction would be to be the same. These cops probably cames at Kelly Thomas in a sideways approach b/c of prior altercations, which leads me to believe that the Police department already knew what this man was about and figured they would finally get rid of the problem.

Everyone forgets that Kelly Thomas was dangerous. Did he deserve the beating he got? Hell no, but stop acting like he was some angel. AGAIN this does not excuse the cops and their actions and they should be immediately fired and tried.

What we should be mad at is Ron Thomas for trying to cash in on his son’s death. Apparently he has time for him now!

Wrong. Kelly was not dangerous. It’s the rogue element of the FPD that is dangerous. But don’t worry. New eye-witnesses are corroborating what happened and it sure doesn’t look good for the McKinley Six.

@266…… YOU GOT IT… real nice that no one gave a crap about this guy. his own family got a restraining order to keep him away… and dad said he needs to look for a job but cuz of this he has had no time…mmmm guess he is waiting for the pay check from fpd……..

fyi……the dad who claims to be x-cop…was a mashal. he was a baliff…..when oc sheriff took over he was grandfathered in as a sheriff deputy…… so has this guy ever worked a day of patrol??????? i guess not, he probaly has no idea what its like to work the streets and deal with homeless people that no one wants around. heck he did not even want his own kid around but yet citizens of fullerton had to deal with him roaming around, dirty, stinky, asking for money, digging in the trash and looking for old cigarettes….. guess u can say he would sure bring up the property value…… the fact is no body wnats to deal with the homeless.

if they come close to ur child, u grab ur child and go.
if they are holding the sign and looking for money , u look the other way.
if they are roaming around stores or streets, u move and try to avoid them.
they roam neighborhoods and pee on stuff
they steal shopping carts and fill them with junk
they drink and nap under trees,,,,

nobody seems to really want to help….. everyone is concerned with what kelly weighted, he was so skinny & dirty….

well people open ur homes and bring these hungry, dirty, crazy people into ur home…. and when they go crazy, do not call FPD or any PD for that matter…..just help them and be sympothetic to their needs…..

this guys family calls him a drifter…..yeah sure,,,, he was drifting because they got a restraining order on him and they would not allow him around…….guess it all about the pay out……disgusting!!!!!!!!!! on tv his mother mentioned she wished she could hug him and see him.she was crying……WTF,,,she had a restraining order on him……….for peeing and hanging around her house…..

and now people want to boycott the small businesses in fullerton.????? so hard working class people take the hit on this…..

@by yep so this is your explication for murdering him?
what have you done to relieve the city of the mentally ill? Or did you except your self ?
you are the type of moron who thinks the cops are all up standing officers ever heard of Serpico that is what all police departments need get rid of all the corruption from the mayor down to the bottom feeder cops.People stop paying these bloated salary’s to the pigs we need to hire collage graduates who want a career in law enforcement at least there would be integrity which is a word police never understood
a restraining order on him you are truly a fuck’n pig moron.Kelly was mentally ill there brain tells them they are not sick they are ok.Take away the over paid piggy’s pork belly salary and spend it on the people who need it. the piggy’s want to practice there piggy brutality on the helpless.i am sure there is a hot little place in hell for all the murdering piggies they will be roast pork you can’t hide from GOD “O” piggy cops like to play god you are in for a rude awakening.
you sure did allot of prying to find out about kellys dad yea and he also knows how dirty cops can be.
Does any Fullerton piggy’s know what integrity is?
kelly may have been dirty physically but you Fullerton cops are the dirtiest of the dirt you are a cancer to American society.that goes for all piggy’s across the USA Fullerton is not exclusive unfortunately.GOD save our country from this Tyranny.
we need homeland security from our own!!!!!

Hi Erika: Kind of you to remember this old man. Sigh, if only homework could always be interesting. 😉 Thank you for continuing to keep an eye out for info about foreign countries’ policies on law enforcement misconduct.

“If the [Chief] of police doesn’t know his policies and how to react to them he has no business being Chief of police.” Indeed!

“Wouldn’t that be a sight to see?” (chuckle) I dare say.

Having the FBI handle cases of police misconduct may not be that inappropriate. Not all cases of police misconduct result in death/s. But putting cops into State prisons where they would encounter cons they put there would most certainly result in deaths. I disagree with current policies totally removing all responsibility from officers for their actions, but I don’t feel every incident should automatically carry a death sentence either. That said, I did sign the petition to have Congress pass a law against excessive force by police (hope the petition shows results). It must be possible to find a middle ground between NO personal responsibility and an automatic death sentence. Laws and courts hold the rest of us responsible for all our actions. Why should cops be totally exempt? I would be willing to see the six FPD ‘heroes’ get life without parole in a Fed prison. They certainly need to be taken off the streets because they are a proven danger to society!

Your idea about charging Chiefs of Police with the same crimes their officers get charged with is intriguing. It certainly WOULD clean up a lot of dirty police departments in a hurry. Lets start with Fullerton, CA, eh?

Sorry for not responding right away. I hadn’t returned to this particular blog for a bit. Been reading and posting on some of the other blogs here.

Hang in there on those boring assignments. They will benefit in the long run.

I get the fact you are police activists and anti police. That’s fine. But do you really think a cop will ever get the death penalty? If you say yes, that just shows how out of touch with reality you really are. Good luck.

Which only shows you rationalize your own buried feelings of guilt by imagining those who would hold you responsible for your actions are unreasonable. Maybe you should get counseling for that guilt complex?

“That’s fine. But do you really think a cop will ever get the death penalty? If you say yes, that just shows how out of touch with reality you really are. Good luck.”

Really? Nope, not me. Wouldn’t want them to either. Want them to spend their final days in prison thinking of how they might have done something of value with their lives instead of murdering a small helpless young man who barely had any grip on reality, and NO IDEA why he was being beaten to death! I’m saddened you suffer from such profound dissociation you cannot grasp the very real horror of what those guys did.

Hope you learn to reconnect with your feelings and work out that guilt.

To those who wonder why videors just stood there. If all rushed the cops to put a stop to it, all would’ve been shot. The most sickening thing is seeing the second squad car race up as if afraid they’re missing out on the slugfest. They had to call back-up? What candy-asses, or then maybe that justifies their intent to murder the guy.

Can anyone tell me this man’s Dad’s name and phone number? I would appreciate it very much!
This happened to my brother on July 2nd, 2011 with the Honolulu Police Dept. I also suspect foul play and they, or someone had beaten him….My brother also was a mentally ill person and homeless………….He died in jail on July 2nd, 2011.
Thank you.

ok so this guy was detained for a possibly breaking into an automobile, which turned out not to be him, he was asked by officer manuel ramos to place his hands on his knees and stretch his legs out in front of him, when the mentally handicapped man replied “which one dude, ” to which Ramos put rubber gloves on his hands and replied these fists are going to fuck you up, a mentally ill man in fear of his life decided to run from the nazi scum that were about to kill him, they tackled him tasered him 6 times and continued to smash his face into a curb after he went limp and unconscious, Cicinelli proceded to pistol whip the man’s face in with his now empty taser crushing the man’s allready broken facial bones. I’ve seen columbian cartel assassinations with less violence than this… Obviously there is a systematic feeling or hardening police officers with weapons gain after years of taking rights away from “perps” ie unarmed civilians going about their day to day activites. In general police seem to think of us as their enemies, they do not care whether we are innocent, guilty, or even involved. Congrats fellow americans we are now no longer a democracy but a police state and a plutonomy.

jballaviator :
ok so this guy was detained for a possibly breaking into an automobile, which turned out not to be him, he was asked by officer manuel ramos to place his hands on his knees and stretch his legs out in front of him, when the mentally handicapped man replied “which one dude, ” to which Ramos put rubber gloves on his hands and replied these fists are going to fuck you up, a mentally ill man in fear of his life decided to run from the nazi scum that were about to kill him, they tackled him tasered him 6 times and continued to smash his face into a curb after he went limp and unconscious, Cicinelli proceded to pistol whip the man’s face in with his now empty taser crushing the man’s allready broken facial bones. I’ve seen columbian cartel assassinations with less violence than this… Obviously there is a systematic feeling or hardening police officers with weapons gain after years of taking rights away from “perps” ie unarmed civilians going about their day to day activites. In general police seem to think of us as their enemies, they do not care whether we are innocent, guilty, or even involved. Congrats fellow americans we are now no longer a democracy but a police state and a plutonomy.

My husband just got an email from an old high school friend he has kept in touch with for 30 years, and they used to play in a rock band together. The old friend has been a policeman in Ontario, Canada, for several years now. Everytime he goes on a police training course (to improve his skills), he writes my husband to say he would tell my husband about it, but he won’t because then “I’d have to kill you.” The policeman basically goes on a bender periodically because frankly he can’t stand the pain of his job and the killers he is working with – though he doesn’t admit it in so many words. “Police Brutality” is a deliberately created technique in which policemen like my husband’s old friend are being brutalized to put up, or shut up. Once they get together they are like a pack of mad dogs. There is only one solution when you find a pack of mad dogs.

they will probably serve 2-2 and a half years max plea deal reduced charge in minimum security with tv rec good food forest envirement no danger from others ie. worry free time. youll see wattch slap on wrist . it all strarts with the farce they call traffic court they get lie training there no jury not by the people for the people govrn,mmnt

Jay Cicinelli AND his FOP brother will be getting the ultimate justice on gods day. No need to worry, Jay and his brother will one day stand before gods justice which is final, and no reprieve. I don’t want to get ugly, so i will pray for his forgiveness. But deep down, i want to see him sent to the ever burning pit of fire. Birds of a feather flock together, and satan awaits RAMOS and Jay Cicinelli . I won’t even dignify naming him with his first name.

So do you think Ron and Cathy Thomas will stand before the same God and ask for forgiveness for not taking care of their son and for Cathy to suppling him with his first drugs. Everyone has their day in front of their God. Even you Kirschner.