33 comments:

For that I commend him...though it is still a misdirection on his part

Nevertheless...it does contain sincere questions which some Christians may be harbouring as hurdles to Islam...once we over come these then (God willing) these Christians will join the fold of Islam, thus it is anexcellent opportunity which presents itself.

I have an article or two on the conveyor belt...once they have been churned out I will direct attention to responding to this subject matter.

All of what Mr. David Wood said can be simply explained.To make it easy, please try to forget that "ISLAM" is the name of a religion, just take it as a verb totally detached from Today's Islam.First: the Word Islam means 'SUBMISSION" , in the case of the early Christians who followed Jesus(PBUH), they became 'SUBMITTERS" to the God of Jesus.One can say that even the Hindus can be rightly called Submitters to Veshnu or whatever their God's name is.Second, The Quran was telling Mohammad (PBUH) a story that happened in the "PAST", informing him and his followers of historical events, so, God did not deceive the new followers of the new "improved" Abrahamic faith (Islam that is), which means that God was not deceiving the Mohammad followers as you implied, he was just telling them a story of how he saved his messenger Jesus(pbuh) from being killed by a mob of non believers.Original Abrahamic faiths preached monotheism, and included instructions on how to be a good person such as praying, fasting, giving to the poor etc, if you did so, you became a Muslim to Abraham's God.Regarding the crucifixion , if one studies Christian theology deeply, he/she will come to know about many books that were disregarded at the council of necea, some of them taught that Jesus was not crucified.With all due respect, Christianity is the faith of those who want a free ticket to heaven, after all, Jeusus (pbuh) paid the price.Islam requires one to act righteously, which in turn brings benefits to the society at large, of course, humans have deviated from the original message of Islam as humans do most of the time, hence, the problems with Muslims of today.Thanks.Salam.

When Jesus found Unbelief on their [i.e. the Jews’] Part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work Of) Allah?” Said the Disciples: “We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, And do thou bear witness That we are Muslims.”

I'd really like a Muslim to explain how this works. Islam says no one can be a Muslim unless they accept Muhammad as the prophet of Allah. How then could anyone born before Muhammad be a Muslim as this ayah states!? Whenever i ask this Q i am always met with a blank stare.

"With all due respect, Christianity is the faith of those who want a free ticket to heaven, after all, Jeusus (pbuh) paid the price."

This is a Myth about Christianity.The Salvation given by God is the first step.

But what's next is this:" 14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." Hebrew 12:14.

Which means Jesus puts the base for us to be saved, but God's waits us to change our life by the ressurection of your soul from the grave of sins.

Next time please don't say that Christianity doesn't make you responsible.

"Regarding the crucifixion , if one studies Christian theology deeply, he/she will come to know about many books that were disregarded at the council of necea, some of them taught that Jesus was not crucified."

Sam S said..."Regarding the crucifixion , if one studies Christian theology deeply, he/she will come to know about many books that were disregarded at the council of necea, some of them taught that Jesus was not crucified."

Obvioulsy you have not studied Christian Theology DEEPLY. Because if you had you would know

1. That the concil of NICEA had nothing to do with the Cannon of the New Testement.

2. That there was no Big ever considered for cannonization that denied the crucifiction of Christ.

So maybe you should study Christian Theology a little more deeply before you start telling this nonsense to Christians.

I think Sam S refers to the GNOSTIC gospels when he wrote:"Regarding the crucifixion , if one studies Christian theology deeply, he/she will come to know about many BOOKS that were disregarded at the council of necea, SOME of them taught that Jesus was NOT crucified."

We know the Gnostic gospels had NO PASSION narrative(death and resurrection) of Jesus.It was:

1.Because Jesus was God and the material world is evil so Jesus was NEVER even born,it was an illusion.2.Jesus was never killed if he was never born,so no passion narrative.

BUTThe Gnostic gospels are from around 150 AD and more.They have no historical value,neither about the life of Jesus nor about the beliefs of the first followers.

I am looking foward to Yahya Snow's coming article on the theme.But I think a great hurdle is the claim in 2 passages that Allah is the best of schemers.It implies that the scheme was the best regarding early Christianity.

Sam S said: "Islam requires one to act righteously, which in turn brings benefits to the society at large, of course, humans have deviated from the original message of Islam as humans do most of the time, hence, the problems with Muslims of today." So you know about Islam? Ok, answer these Q's. 1)Taqiyya. 2) Muhammad a 51yr old marry's a 6yr old whilst still playing with her dolls. 3) Murdering those who opposed his message.

The estimable David Wood has made an interesting point: that according to Islam, Allah made it appear to people that Jesus was crucified and died and rose from the dead, even though, according to Islam, Jesus was not really crucified or did not really die. Thus Allah, it would seem, is responsible for corrupting the whole message of Christianity, and made Jesus' whole life pointless. Why would Allah do that to Jesus, whom Islam considers one of the greatest prophets? Why would Allah send an important prophet, only to make the prophet accomplish nothing? Jesus' intended message, according to Muslims, was a Muslim message, not the current Christian message that Jesus was God and a member of the Trinity and someone who was crucified and rose from the dead. Yet Allah led people to believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, led A LOT of people to believe it, even more than the number who believe in Islam! Why would Allah hide from people the "true" (according to Islam) message of Christianity, and cause so many people to labor under an illusion?

The senselessness of all that amounts to a pretty amazing (to me at least) refutation of Islam, assuming there are no holes in the refutation.

Sam S,The "problem with Muslims today" as you put it, is not that they deviate from the original Islam. It's that they follow Muhammad too closely. Muhammad did not believe in individual freedom, as much in the Qur'an and ahadith attests. One also sees this in the frequent statements from Muslims scorning democracy. One also sees it in the lack of religious freedom in Muslim-majority nations around the world. All of that comes not from corrupting Islam, but from following it, if I judge by all the Islamic texts I've seen. Freedom is one of God's greatest gifts. Islam doesn't see that, indeed rejects that gift from God. God hopes we'll use our individual freedom responsibly, but he doesn't try to force us to behave well. Just look at all the evil behavior going on. God has far more respect for individual freedom than did Muhammad. This also means that Muhammad did not understand love. Love is supposed to be the main thing in Christianity, and love, because it can only come from the innermost core of a human being, is the one thing one cannot compel. Love, properly so-called, can only occur in freedom. "I can't make you love me if you don't. I can't make your heart do somethin' it won't," sang the pop singer Bonnie Raitt. The tyrant can command fear, and awe. But he cannot command love. Muhammad did not see that, because he did not understand or believe in individual freedom, as shown by many of his actions and statements.

Excellent article from David. Its everything I've been saying for a while now in a 41 minute video! Ultimately Jesus's presence in this world (according to islam) was pointless because he had absolutely no impact whatsoever. No minority group kept this teaching as David said. But I have heard muslims respond that the quran is talking about a moral victory here, in which case I must wonder, how can it be a moral victory to the day of resserection? What does moral victory entail? It seems like an excuse for the weakness of allah to protect the true followers of Christ. Ultimately history is islam's worst enemy.

Well there is no doubt that teachings of quran and allah and the deed or life style of mohammad is anti Jesus. If one does a close anlysis of these with what Jesus said and taught one would find a distinct contradiction. Thas why i do not accept a word from muslim when it is based on quran cause they say it with a mind set of quran and allah and with a definite motive of being anti Jesus and anti God (God of Bible). If someone can understand what they say and what they do please let me know. if we just pick two like Jesus said love ur enemies, quran says fight the non believers: Jesus said if u lust in heart u commit adultery, quran says it is ok to have slave girls: mohammad's motive about zainab led to her divorce and later mohammad married her, both actions account to adultery if we look at what Jesus said about divorce without adultery being the reason and about marrying such a woman. Jesus said He is the Son of God they dont beleive it and call Him mere prophet. Jesus said my word is truth and it will set u free; mohammad told muslims not to be friends with christians and jews to keep muslims away from the truth of Jesus: it can go on and on.To me it shows a clear cut deceptive agenda of quran, allah and mohammad and muslims are merely preys to it.

Hugh Watt,You ask how could Jesus' disciples say "we are Muslims," centuries before Islam even existed.

Maybe a Muslim could simply answer that what the disciples said is that "We are submitters, we submit to God."

As you know, that's what "Muslim" means. One who submits. So perhaps the disciples, according to today's Muslims, simply used the Aramaic or Greek or whatever to say "we are those who submit to God." The problem is not that someone might say that centuries before Muhammad. The problem is that Christianity is not about submitting to God or becoming slaves of God. It's about becoming sons and daughters of God. It's about inheriting the Kingdom. The problem is that the Islamic God is conceived in the image of an ancient Middle Eastern potentate, an absolute despot. The Christian God is "our Father." We are not slaves, but potential heirs. For the Judeo-Christian tradition, human beings are made in the image of God. Islam disagrees profoundly with that.

The reason Islam could not, without the conquered dhimmi populations, do much with science, the reason Islamic science declined in exact proportion to the decline of the subject dhimmi populations who gradually converted to Islam to escape dhimmitude or emigrated from Islamic lands, the reason for the Islamic weakness with science is that the Muslims conceive Allah's rule as so absolute that he obeys nothing and no one other than himself. That means he obeys no laws, including scientific laws. Like an absolute despot, he is above the law and his rule is conceived as completely arbitrary. Thus it does not naturally occur to a Muslim to look for laws in nature. To a Muslim, Allah decides at each moment what will happen in nature, and decides not in obedience to any law, but only in obedience to himself.

The Muslims somewhere in their core texts accuse the Jews of saying that God's hands are chained. And the Muslims were apparently correct in that, because in the Jewish and Christian traditions God's "rule" was not conceived as arbitrary, it was conceived as consistent, and as in accord with ethical laws and laws of reason or logos. The John Gospel calls Christ the Logos. What a difference from the arbitrary absolute despotism of Allah!

Ed: There can only be one kind of Muslim. Even if that person does not follow the 5 pillars, so long as they don't commit any of the 'major sins,' they are Muslim still because of the Shahada. No one could say the Shahada before Muhammad, not even Muhammad himself before his 'revelation.' The pagan Arabs could say the first part, but before Muhammad not the last part. Yet Muslims say 'we are all Muslim!' How can that be?Sufi's, Sunni's etc, fight each other, but are still Muslim. All these sects believe in Allah and Muhammad, even the N.O.I (Nation of Islam, though some Muslims reject this). The confusion is on them.Muslims may use the point you raised, but those pagan Arabs were killed for not believing the REAL PART that Muhammad wanted to force upon people. That is what so many have been killed for and are still being murdered for! The REAL submission and life sparing submission was to Muhammad's ego and tyranny.

Ned: Muslims do not see Islam as anti-Christian. The ayats in my next post may explain why.

S:42. 8. If God had so willed, He could have made them A single people; but He Admits whom He will To His Mercy; And the wrong-doers Will have no protector Nor helper.

S:16. 93. If God so willed, He Could make you all one People: But He leaves straying Whom He pleases, and He guides Whom He pleases: but ye Shall certainly be called to account For all your actions.So, Allah ‘created all things,’ could have ‘made all a single people.’ Now all the wars, killings, rapes, etc, Allah could have prevented but is actually responsible for! Not only that, but Allah says ” but ye Shall certainly be called to account For all your actions.” That’s a bit rough don’t you think?S:64. 11 “No calamity befalleth save by Allah’s leave. And whosoever believeth in Allah, He guideth his heart. And Allah is Knower of all things.”S:4. 78 Wheresoever ye may be, death will overtake you, even though ye were in lofty towers. Yet if a happy thing befalleth them they say: This is from Allah; and if an evil thing befalleth them they say: This is of thy doing (O Muhammad). Say (unto them): All is from Allah. What is amiss with these people that they come not nigh to understand a happening ?”BUT; 79 Whatever of good befalleth thee (O man) it is from Allah, and whatever of ill befalleth thee it is from thyself. We have sent thee (Muhammad) as a messenger unto mankind and Allah is sufficient as Witness.”S:91.7 And a soul and Him Who perfected it, 8 And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.”Dawood translates this as; ‘And inspired it with wickedness and piety.’ This ayah teaches Allah is the source of good and evil!S:14.4 And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk, that he might make (the message) clear for them. Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Wise.”Allah ‘guides’ and ‘leads astray whom he wills!’ Now judgment falls on those who do wrong!S:28.15 And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil’s doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.”Notice who the Quran says is the misleader here? I did the math.I also ask; can Allah mislead Muslims? All?

Listening to your teaching is such a delight. I can't decide whether I'm more entertained or enlightened. You bless us all and you bless me VERY much and I'll be watching this video over and over again (and chuckling with you) in the days ahead. Thank you for your courageous ministry and for the clarity of your insight. MAY JESUS CHRIST BE PRAISED!! (I remain Kafir and PROUD...)

Even though I'm a Muslim myself, I have to admit I throughly respect your discussion, David.

I am unable to answer your questions, but there is something that I had learned before that I wanted to share here. Be in mind that this is just from memory so I am unable to produce references to officially back up my claim.

You asked whether Jesus was a failure as a prophet, and what is the purpose for His blessed existence if Allah failed Him anyway. This is generally what I understand from your talk. I can't really answer the former, but for the latter I can say that Jesus will return to defeat Dajjal (the anti-Christ) at the time when the world is ending. That is His purpose.

If I were to give my opinion (remember, without any literature back up, sorry), Jesus is removed from this world so that He will be in His prime condition to face Dajjal. If Jesus is to live on this world this whole time, He would have been a 2000 year old man, and what 2000 year old man can really do against the Dajjal. Remember, we Muslims recognize Jesus as a normal human being, so when He is 2000 years old, He will definitely resemble, physically and mentally, as a normal 2000 year old old man.

We believe that Jesus will 'Return' as opposed to 'Resurrect'. In this sense, both Muslims and Christians believe in the same thing; the two words are different but meaning are almost similar.

I have a question for you. Christians believe that Jesus will resurrect, but on whose claim is that? Are those the words from Jesus Himself, or from His three followers (James, John, Paul), or someone else? I am not being sarcastic, I am just curious.

epuL said: "We believe that Jesus will 'Return' as opposed to 'Resurrect'. In this sense, both Muslims and Christians believe in the same thing; the two words are different but meaning are almost similar."

You make the same mistake Many Muslims make; assume we believe the same thing. I don't know how much you want to go into this, it's a lot of posting but, read Matt.24 then compare it to what Islam says about Christ's return, you'll see a total difference!

"I have a question for you. Christians believe that Jesus will resurrect, but on whose claim is that? Are those the words from Jesus Himself, or from His three followers (James, John, Paul), or someone else? I am not being sarcastic, I am just curious."

We do not believe "Jesus will resurrect,"He has already risen!

"Return" & "Resurrect" do not mean the same thing.

John 2:19 “All right,” Jesus replied. “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 “What!” they exclaimed. “It has taken forty-six years to build this Temple, and you can rebuild it in three days?” 21 But when Jesus said “this temple,” he meant his own body."

Whenever the Bible and Quran conflict, it is the Quran that's at fault; Islam has the wrong understanding!

Thanks for your clarification, although I would be glad if you could be less offending in giving your reply.

I admit I never read or study the Bible before giving out that statement. I had always assumed that his resurrection will not happen until the end is near. This I believe many Muslims make the same mistake.

You mentioned the verse:John 2:19 “All right,” Jesus replied. “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

I've got another question. From that verse, did Jesus told His followers to kill Him? I have always thought that He was chased and later crucified by the Jews. Also, again, pardon my ignorance.

epuL said: "Thanks for your clarification, although I would be glad if you could be less offending in giving your reply."

What!!!? Tell me what i said that offended you. I respect your Q, and thought my reply was honest and in no way offensive. I re-read my post and can't see what would cause offence.

"I admit I never read or study the Bible before giving out that statement. I had always assumed that his resurrection will not happen until the end is near. This I believe many Muslims make the same mistake."

This is a very serious point. The Bible says Christ has risen;

Matthew 28:6 "He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

John 10:1 "What I'm about to tell you is true. What if someone does not enter the sheep pen through the gate but climbs in another way? That person is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him. The sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all of his own sheep out, he goes on ahead of them. His sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger. In fact, they will run away from him. They don't recognize a stranger's voice."6 Jesus used this story. But the Jews who were there didn't understand what he was telling them.

7 So Jesus said again, "What I'm about to tell you is true. I am like a gate for the sheep. 8 All those who ever came before me were thieves and robbers. But the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I'm like a gate. Anyone who enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out. And he will find plenty of food. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come so they can have life. I want them to have it in the fullest possible way.

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep. 12 The hired man is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when the hired man sees the wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired man. He does not care about the sheep.

14 "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and my sheep know me. 15 They know me just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I give my life for the sheep.

16 "I have other sheep that do not belong to this sheep pen. I must bring them in too. They also will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 "The reason my Father loves me is that I give up my life. But I will take it back again. 18 No one takes it from me. I give it up myself. I have the authority to give it up. And I have the authority to take it back again. I received this command from my Father."

"I've got another question. From that verse,(John 2), did Jesus told His followers to kill Him? I have always thought that He was chased and later crucified by the Jews. Also, again, pardon my ignorance."

Please read the Bible. Don't take what i or anyone says. Ask God to guide you in reading. Muslims, not the Quran, say the Bible has been corrupted! Do you know the Quran never says that!? In John 2, it was not Jesus followers but His enemies who wanted to kill Him.

This is a very informative and thought-provoking discussion! Thank you all for your insights! How I wish all people would resort to civilized exchanges such as this rather than resort to emotional outbursts.

That being said however, I would like to comment on the following:

To Mr. Hugh Watt

Hello! I have read through your posts answering Mr. epuL. While your arguments seem sound, I do have to agree with Mr. epuL that the tone of your answers do not reflect a civilized rebuttal.

To quote:

"Whenever the Bible and Quran conflict, it is the Quran that's at fault; Islam has the wrong understanding!"

Please note that Mr. epuL had identified himself as a Muslim. Islam is as personal to him as the Christian faith is to ourselves.

Surely, you would be offended too if someone were to say to you that Christianity has a "wrong understanding?"

And while I respectfully acknowledge your fervor in defending our Christian faith, may I just refer you to the following verse:

"We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments." - 2 Corinthians 10:4, NLT

While intellectual debate has its uses, ultimately, it is a worldly tool. The Christian faith relies on providing good testimony by the way we conduct ourselves in all aspects of our lives.

After all, Jesus engaged less in debate and lived more of his life being an example of what it means to be a child of God.

Our objective as Christians is to win hearts and souls to Christ by showing how the Gospel transformed our own lives.

We are certainly not called to estrange other people further from God by insulting their own beliefs.

"Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them." - 2 Timothy 2:14, NLT

To Mr. epuL,

Thank you for your interest in our Christian faith. I too am trying to understand Islam and its roots. If you would like to know more about what the Christian Bible says about Jesus, I would be more than glad to share it with you. You may email me at shinbrouken@live.com.

As regards your reply to my post. I take notice of those who say they are Christian then set about (mis)using Scripture to pull me up on issues. I'll not drag this out.

Epul should've said what offended him, that would be civilized; that's one thing.

"Whenever the Bible and Quran conflict, it is the Quran that's at fault; Islam has the wrong understanding!"

Show me otherwise! Also, try using Scripture in their right context; i.e, the 2 you misapplied.

"Surely, you would be offended too if someone were to say to you that Christianity has a "wrong understanding?"

No. I'd actually laugh or shake my head when people say such ignorant things. Muslims however get very upset when we point out things they were never taught by their Imams. Epul sh(c)ould have explained.On this blog I show Muslims Islam's deceptions. They are convinced it's right and Christianity is wrong. What would you do? If you know of a way to tell Muslims Islam is a lie without offending, say on.

"Thank you for your interest in our Christian faith. I too am trying to understand Islam and its roots."

Here's another flaw in your post. For you to say i'm wrong in saying; "Islam has the wrong understanding!" you need to know what I know. If you can show Islam does not have the wrong understanding, do so.

"epuL said: "Thanks for your clarification, although I would be glad if you could be less offending in giving your reply."

"What!!!? Tell me what i said that offended you. I respect your Q, and thought my reply was honest and in no way offensive. I re-read my post and can't see what would cause offence."

I wish to discuss this matter with you further, but preferably in private if you don't mind.

Do you have an email address that I can get in touch with you? You can send it to my email at shinbrouken@live.com.

Also, my offer still stands to Mr. epuL and all Muslim friends who are interested in knowing more about the Christian Jesus to email me and ask their questions there. I will be more than happy and honored to share my knowledge with you.

I shall keep all of your contact information confidential should you desire so.

Faith, any faith, spread by the sword is no faith at all. God has no use for such forced conversions. Both the Christian and Muslim faiths are guilty of this one. At least the Christians learned their lesson long ago. Only a false God, a true deciever, would resort to such means to garner his followers. Trick people to convert to a false religion and then behead them before they can recant. This only serves to bolster the number of souls Satan gathers by getting Christians or other faiths to deny their true God.

Im sorry Guys i really must laugh et your comments.Speaking of something having no knowledge...This Guy has taken some words out of the Quran and added on to his story without having read all the sentence.There is a reason why Christians and Jews dont want to Test Quran. Strange... How come u people never ask ur self now 1400 + years never taken out a letter or added on this book. I mean there is not much to say... On the other side tell me what really left from ur Original Scriptures which was rewritten several times. U still read those (today) so called Scriptures and trying to make comparison, of which u have no knowledge!!! Maybe with my comment will answer SOME people they SEARCH, becouse not all of u search...

Dear Mr Wood .It is my interpretation that Allah made it appear so is really Allah allowed that Christ be crucified so that he be raised up from the dead.He also empowered his followers till the day of resurrection & so Christianity is the most widely accepted religion to this day.Mohd wrote the correct interpretation in Arabic which states"The Jews thought that they had killed him but they killed him not but they killed that man who was trying to kill him"This is the old sinful man in us according to Christian belief & this is Judas according to Islamic belief".Most of the Quran is poetic & written in Arabic & in the interpretation misguidedMuslims to ignore this

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