Well Theo, I know and you know, that God is never the source of two opposing views. In my journey, I have found that when it seems to be so.... the truth lies beyond the extremes, and I just keep seeking. I trust that all will eventually become clear, "That whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".The treasure is all there in the field- we just have to keep digging for it. Sometimes we argue "heads" versus "tails" because we don't have the whole coin of the truth, "the whole counsel of God" so to speak. I certainly do not claim to have the whole counsel of God, but I believe it is available, because the scripture teaches that it is... "He will lead you into all truth"..."He will take what is mine and give it to you".....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"

There is a lot of information out there, and even as ETrs and annihilationists disagree among themselves over many things, so also believers in the salvation of all. So we all just have to sift and be sifted, together, in a spirit of fellowship and edification, because God is not the author of confusion- but neither has He given us a spirit of fear, but rather of power, love and a sound mind- so peace brother, and keep on truckin (seekin I mean :o)), John

Theo Book

Well Theo, I know and you know, that God is never the source of two opposing views. In my journey, I have found that when it seems to be so.... the truth lies beyond the extremes, and I just keep seeking. I trust that all will eventually become clear, "That whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".The treasure is all there in the field- we just have to keep digging for it. Sometimes we argue "heads" versus "tails" because we don't have the whole coin of the truth, "the whole counsel of God" so to speak. I certainly do not claim to have the whole counsel of God, but I believe it is available, because the scripture teaches that it is... "He will lead you into all truth"..."He will take what is mine and give it to you".....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"

There is a lot of information out there, and even as ETrs and annihilationists disagree among themselves over many things, so also believers in the salvation of all. So we all just have to sift and be sifted, together, in a spirit of fellowship and edification, because God is not the author of confusion- but neither has He given us a spirit of fear, but rather of power, love and a sound mind- so peace brother, and keep on truckin (seekin I mean :o)), John

Thanks - you are very gracious, and have been helpful in my search. I will save the thread, and print it out for further study; and may get back to you later.

The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.

Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]

I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.

Theo,

Who created satan? If Satan filled my heart to lie, Satan made me do it, but the only thing is who gave Satan the authority to put it in my heart? Since my heart is deceitful and wicked already of which God created, then the result would be to lie wouldn't you think?

Also,You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.What do you mean by that?

I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.

If you will read Thayer's report on the scholars page, you will see that he reaches the conclusion about "aiwnion" NOT referencing eternal, and eternity, because the Jews had no such expectation under the Mosaic or other covenants. AND he says Christ got his understanding from the pagan religions around him. With that I disagree. Jesus was fully involved with his Father, and got all of his doctrines and understanding from the father, speaking only what the Father gave him to say. So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.

I disagree.

NOW is the DAY of SALVATION -- 2 Cor 6:2 -- and,

NOW is the DAY of PUNISHMENT... (judgement against/sow-reap) -- John 12:31

Which are BOTH "NOW", and are found within the (GREAT=salvation AND TERRIBLE=punishment) "DAY" of YHVH, in which ALL GENERATIONS (of the Heaven and the earth) appear and are created -- Gen 2:4 -- which is GOING ON --- NOW!

The issue is not just who or what is Satan, but also how does he operate. With God's permission? By God's Prime directive? Is God the directive influence in every evil decision? Has God created a parameter within which Satan and the sons of disobedience are free to choose evil in this age? Are we as the redeemed choosing within this parameter but chosen according to the foreknowledge of God? Are all these questions seen through a glass darkly, and the source of wranglings about words that do not edify and minister grace?

There are about 40 more questions such as these which probably cannot even be discussed politely for any length of time from what I have seen- and the banned free will/sov discussion is at the core of it, so I will just keep asking questions.

If God has predestined all things why does He find fault? What if He has endured the vessels of wrath in order to make manifest the vessels of mercy? How can the clay say to the potter, why hast thou made me thus? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor? Who has given to Him that he should repay? Who knows the thoughts of a man but the spirit that is in the man?

Whew! I don't know if there should be a thread on that or not

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are mature: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:6-14)

Theo Book

The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.

Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]

I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.

(CHB) Theo, Who created satan?

Well, IF he is a fallen angel, God did.Psalm 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

But even Jesus called him "the God of this world." "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom THE GOD OF THIS WORLD hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." [II Cor 4:3-4]

CONSIDER:GOD HAS ANGELS:Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give HIS ANGELS charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

GOD PROVIDES ADVERSARIESNum 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and THE ANGEL OF THE LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Num 22:32 And THE ANGEL OF THE LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

DEVIL HAS ANGELSMat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, AND HIS ANGELS were cast out with him.

CONSIDER:IT WAS GOD WHO GAVE LIFE; BUT THE POWER OF DEATH BELONGS TO SATAN:Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy HIM THAT HAD the POWER OF DEATH, that is, THE DEVIL;

I find no verse that says Satan IS an angel, only that he and HIS ANGELS did such and such. I find no verse that says God created Satan, the Devil, nor any other euphism that applies, unless he is in fact, an angel, which verse we lack. (Unless you know of one and will provide it)

I know that God rules all things. I know Satan rules in the earth. I know that Satan serves as an adversary to man, in God's universe. I know that God sent Satan as an adversary to David, to get David to number the people. I know many things. I don't know many things.

(CHB)

Quote

If Satan filled my heart to lie, Satan made me do it, but the only thing is who gave Satan the authority to put it in my heart? Since my heart is deceitful and wicked already of which God created, then the result would be to lie wouldn't you think?

You would so think. HOWEVER; With every temptation, God has provided a way of escape. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." [I Cor 10:13]

Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.

It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.

To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.

The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?

Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.

"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.

In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.

Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.

The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).

Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.

When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.

It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.

Song of Solomon 2:10; My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.11; For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone

Colossians 1:21; And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles22; by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight

Psalm 17:15; I — in righteousness, I see Thy face; I am satisfied, in awaking, with Thy form!

Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.

It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.

To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.

The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?

Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.

"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.

In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.

Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.

The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).

Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.

When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.

It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.

Nathan this is almost exactly how I have seen it for a long time now. You worded it all so well. I am going to read your post again and probably again and again.

I think we need to know who our enemy is and 'his' base of operation for us to be effective for God. Jesus was not ignorant in any area and He was not ignorant about 'who' is at enmity to God. The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. rom8.7

I also firmly believe our enemies are those of our own household (our very selves, our minds!). Matthew 10.36

I see what you wrote as being essentially true at the core of it. I agree with the translation issues you pointed out. I am not sure if you are saying that their are no entities in which this adversary exists beyond that of the mind of man - such as the principalities and powers, rulers of hosts of wickedness, demons, god of this world, etc. Even if you are saying that, although I would disagree with that, the core issue as regards believers that you are putting forth I do agree with. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we are renewed in the spirit of our mind after the image of Christ, then the carnal mind is mortified and buried. If we are carnally minded the things of God are foolishness to us. The letter kills, only the Spirit gives life. The dragon having 10 horns and 7 heads could simply mean that three of its heads have two horns, and as we see in Dan. heads and horns can be related to kingdoms, their ruling principalities, etc. Nevertheless, in what I call "the principle of wheels within wheels", the outer substance is often only the manifestation of the deeper inner principle or spiritual reality.

Ex.The dragon sends out a flood of lies in order to swallow the man-child before he can be birthed.

This true as Herod sends forth assassins to slay all the first born sons under the age of two, in order to prevent the birth of the manchild appointed to rule all nations. "Rachel weeping for her children"

This is true in me, as God seeks to bring forth a mature disciple who can be caught up to His throne. "For the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit lusts against the flesh".

This is true in the body of Christ (Eph 4) as our mother, the New Jerusalem from above(who is free) is in birth pangs....."until we all attain to the untiy of the faith, to a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ(manchild)"....."so that we will no longer be as children tossed to and fro by waves, by every wind of doctrine, by the craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming(dragon)"

This is true of the earth, the creation, the kosmos- subjected to futility and waiting eagerly for its liberation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

If I was to set up around one of the wheels, or pitch my tent on one of the layers of the onion, I might never arrive at the mind of Christ which encompasses all of them, each having its purpose and rightful application in an administration suitable to the fulness of times, and all one in the matrix of the many faceted wisdom of Christ.Peace JM

The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.

Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]

I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.

Hey Theo,

It is all summed very nicely for me in the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. God is His own opposer and we are the vehicles He uses. We are His workmanship. He is showing us of Himself in all He does. Everything that is done is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. The good, bad and the ugly. This would be horrendous and sinful if the big picture turned out bad but it doesn't, it turns out to be a perfect work, a masterpiece so all is good. God is perfect but He does use black strokes as well as beautiful colorful strokes to make His masterpiece.

Traducer and adversary. I'm going to stir the waters here just a bit on this because the subject is still relevant to this understanding. For me, the Scripture never used the words "devil" or "satan", or "hell" for that matter. The translators chose those words when they took it from Greek/Hebrew to English. The word for devil is actually traducer, and the word for satan is actually adversary.

It "is" important to know who satan is because it unlocks better understanding of how he operates and what his origin is. What does Scripture reveal about the mind of man? Is it not always at "emnity" with God? When Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan, what was really going on there? Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus' ministry, he didn't become "demon posessed", he was simply reacting to his mind. He had good intentions for doing what he did, but even in good intentions, the natural mind is still at emnity against the things of God.

To traduce means to accuse. The accuser of the brethren is the same thing. What is the source? It's not . .again, this is just how "I'm" seeing it, I'm not trying to lay out a new doctrine on anyone . . .but I no longer see satan in the traditional sense that he's this head evil imp that is in control over all demon imps that create terror in the land.

The serpent in the garden, the dragon in Revelation and satan are all one and the same, everyone agrees with that because Scripture says it. However, what if satan is not on the outside of us influencing our inside thinking . . .what if satan (remember, the original word is simply adversary) IS our mind? Think about it. If our mind was not an adversary, then why does it need to be renewed everyday?

Bad things happen as a result of people living according to their own minds, rather than according to the leading of the spirit. Why does God "allow" it? Because he "gave" us the authority to bring life or death in this realm. Carnality is the prince of the air of this realm we live in. But we're not "of" this world, and that's why our "spirit" has authority over our flesh. We're from a higher realm and as such, we can overcome the darkness in this realm by pursuing the light in the spirit realm.

"Thy kingdom COME, thy will be done ON EARTH as IT IS in heaven. When we release the powers of heaven on this earth, death and darkness no longer have the authority.

In the garden, satan was just a serpent. In Revelation he became a dragon. He grew? You bet he did. How? Because "dust" is the serpents meat. Dust is what we are made from. What does that mean? It means when you feed into carnality, it feeds off of you. When you embrace natural reasoning over spiritual revelation, the serpent in you gains more ground until it rules your every thought, your every motive and action. But it's all inward. That's the wrestling Paul speaks of. There's an adverse nature in every one of us that will always find argument with kingdom principles because my mind is not equipped to reason spiritual matters.

Spiritual truth is birthed, it is not learned or taught. This is why our spirits are to take "captive" our thoughts. It's because our spirits have authority and our thoughts are the adversary.

The devil is what my mind "does". It traduces, it accuses, it emphasizes the nakedness in me and others. Satan is what my mind "is". It's always the adversary against the nature of the kingdom of God.

Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just sharing it as I see it with no condemnation toward anyone who chooses to see it differently. But I've found that when I yeild myself to seeing it this way, everything seems to really fit together and I get excited about that because I also realize that greater is he that is in me (the Spirit) than he that is in the world (carnality).

Another picture of this is in Revelation where the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns (ever wonder how you get 10 horns into 7 heads? It doesn't fit when using natural logic) and the beast had been dead but had come back to life. For me, the "head" is referring to the mind. 7 is the number of completion and fulfillment and 10 is the number of law. Horns represent power. So this beast is actually a picture of carnal man in his completed state of carnality that is governed, it's power comes from living in law and the woman riding the beast is the mind that controls the body.

When I read the part about the beast that was, wasn't and now is again, for me, is referring to what Jesus did on the cross. He took us from death and into life. He gave us the power to resurrect and the power to inflict death.

It's all about the redemptive work of the cross that has resurrected the beast, even though the beast is governed by it's own mind, we see that this mind is against the Lamb as well. Yet it can not over come the Lamb. It's all about the mind of man against the power of God.

Very well said brother N... I enjoyed your summary of these nonexistent myths ("satan & devils"), which only serve to add FEAR, give excuse, and distract from the truth...

Btw... I have been of this same belief and have spoken of it, for quite some time...

Nathan, I really don't see how anything you wrote about the natural mind, eliminates in anyway the potential existence of a being or beings who are corporeal spirits. All of the traducing and adversity in us operates on the principles you illustrated, even if there are such beings. They may also be a part of God's creation of chaos. The woman with the familiar spirit in Acts had supernatural assistance in divination until Paul cast it out. The she was no longer so enabled. This caused the riot because much financial gain was obtained by her soothsaying. Yet Paul's casting out of the familiar spirit did not necessarily change her mind in any way. The first words of Genesis- "and behold it was formless and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters" are a picture of the natural man.... until the Voice...."Let there be light" issues forth into the chaos and there is separation, Light from Darkness. Then as the Voice speaks further there is more specific separation, heavens above and heavens below. If as I believe, there are also corporeal spirits who are adversaries by God's appointment, they work in concert with the sympathetic nature of the natural man, and in the same mind, i.e. "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". They also work in the "heaven", of the natural man, who is veiled from the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus", because they have their eyes blinded by the theos of this aion, the prince of the power of the air. I think this passage illustrates what I am saying.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course(aion) of this world(kosmos), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:1-7)

Theo Book

Nathan, I really don't see how anything you wrote about the natural mind, eliminates in anyway the potential existence of a being or beings who are corporeal spirits. All of the traducing and adversity in us operates on the principles you illustrated, even if there are such beings. They may also be a part of God's creation of chaos. The woman with the familiar spirit in Acts had supernatural assistance in divination until Paul cast it out. The she was no longer so enabled. This caused the riot because much financial gain was obtained by her soothsaying. Yet Paul's casting out of the familiar spirit did not necessarily change her mind in any way. The first words of Genesis- "and behold it was formless and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters" are a picture of the natural man.... until the Voice...."Let there be light" issues forth into the chaos and there is separation, Light from Darkness. Then as the Voice speaks further there is more specific separation, heavens above and heavens below. If as I believe, there are also corporeal spirits who are adversaries by God's appointment, they work in concert with the sympathetic nature of the natural man, and in the same mind, i.e. "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". They also work in the "heaven", of the natural man, who is veiled from the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus", because they have their eyes blinded by the theos of this aion, the prince of the power of the air. I think this passage illustrates what I am saying.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course(aion) of this world(kosmos), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:1-7)

Eagles way, you said some great stuff there. I guess for me, it just depends on which dimension you want relate to. As you stated about Genesis where creation of the earth is actually a pattern of man. Seeing it as the earth is one dimension, seeing it as man is another dimension.

For me, it's the same with demons to a degree. I'm still far from mature in this area, there are still many blanks that are yet to be filled in. But UR already disagrees with the rapture, but how did they come to do that unless they went to the original text and saw that much was lost in translation. Or much was added in translation either way, that's always pulling at me in these other areas as well.

The original text doesn't have the word "demons" and neither does the KJV. However, I'm not about to denounce the fact that they don't exist. However, what I "have" learned and I do speak from experience on this is, when we walk in the spirit, it's a whole other realm of power.

Just as in the Old Testament, the people had to labor in their efforts to be obedient to the laws of God. In the New Testament, Christ fulfilled those laws and now God does in and for us what we once had to do ourselves for him. We grow, we change and the more we walk in Him the more he reveals to us of his nature. The more I walk in his nature, the less I'm concerned about the happenings in my old one. And I guess that's what I'm eluding to here.

Everything has a spiritual application. The majority of the demon activity seemed to be directly connected with man's mind. Even the legion that entered into the herd of pigs brought it back to the mind. After the spirits left the guy, the last thing it says was that he was calmly sitting clothed and with a sound mind.

The original intent I was going for here is satan and devil don't mean what we think it means. But there seems to be a lot of caution coming from others on this who are concerned about conversations like this doing more harm than good. Which makes it kind of tough because I do see their point in that in arenas of communication such as this, there is such a vast amount of different levels of maturity of people who read these threads.

Walking in the kingdom is like going to school, you can't asked a child in 4th grade who is just getting their verbs and nouns down, to be on the same plain as a senior in advanced Spanish. I get that. But at the same time, there are many out there who do actually grow from these perplexing issues.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to confuse or denounce demons, that has it's place. But as you can see the earth represents man, I see the serpent, satan, and the devil all are directly connected to the carnal mind of man.