I think greater magic is easier for me because it is more focused on the self- using own willpower and resources to obtain results, acting accordingly afterwards to ensure success etc. Lesser magic is more about manipulating others, an ability that I find lacking in myself. I find self control and manipulation of the self to be easier than manipulation of others. It is probably my experiences which made one easier than the other. It's possible that my ability to manipulate others has been inactivated somehow.

I am so self-centered myself that I rarely have an interest in manipulating others too. But I have found even this kind of attitude affects others, so in a way no matter what one does, it will manipulate the social situation in some way.

Being self-centered is one of the main keys in Satanism, in order to fulfill my needs and deeds, there's a big part of lower magic involved on a daily base. Life would be very boring for me if I didn't use it in the positive or negative way to my clients, my friends and beloved ones. Manipulating people and having good results are priceless. Lying to those you don't care about and having good results are priceless. It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.

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He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest. || Benjamin Franklin ||

Ah, well you see that is where I suspect that you are using the more narrow definition of Greater Magic in which it only involves you.

I see that as little more than just personal fantasy. If that is what you mean then I agree with you. Doing that would be easier than having to use Lesser Magic to produce objective results.

However, I see Greater Magic as really only being important to the degree that it does produce effective results in others and the outside world.

I see Greater Magic as having to manipulate others and the external world directly.

For example, with Lesser Magic you know that if someone likes you they are more likely to want to do things to please you. So you can easily take a page from Dale Carnegie and employ the fact that if you can honestly compliment someone for something and talk about what they are interested in (themselves), they will tend to like you and then do as you wish.

Good politicians do this all of the time.

Nothing in that strategy requires you to overcome what you already assume is true about reality.

Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy.

So when I suggest that I view Greater Magic as harder to use I mean that it is less common (and less acceptable in our current culture) to assume it can work.

Lesser Magic already fits inside the world as most people see it. That makes it easier from the get go in my opinion. You know why it works and you know exactly what to do to make it work.

Nemo,First I would like to say that your comments have been rather interesting on this topic so I look forward to your book. The idea of Greater Magic has always been rather odd to me, at least from the standpoint of reaching out beyond your subconscious. You said that you see “Greater Magic as having to manipulate others and the external world directly.” This is what I personally am confused on, mostly because I have not seen either a ritual (or Greater Magic Working) that I have done cause a change to the outside world or to another human being; or have I seen evidence that another’s ritual (or Greater Magic Working) caused actual change. From this I have concluded I am no magician because I either lack the subtlety or understanding of actually pulling this off.

You mention a couple of things here, telepathy being one, and cultural influence being another. Now I know there are studies that claim marginal success in the area of thought sending/receiving, and usually this is beyond the scope of luck. But these results are not consistent nor are they easily reproduced. Telepathy just is not reliable enough to be a viable action. I would also like to point out that cases on prayer and open-heart surgery have shown no affect that prayer works. Now I know that many people are going to come with the simple cop-out that its because its prayer and not Greater Magic, if we look at the mechanics being involved, imagery, emotion and focused will, it may be safe to assume that the whether the prayer or Greater Magic ritual were done in Satanic imagery, Christian imagery, Hindu imagery, Lovecraft imagery, or well any imagery, as long as the imagery unlocked the emotions then focused at the intended target or outcome, it should produce the same if not similar results. But from, at least my limited experience on it, no matter how you “dress your ritual” the outcome does not actually change the world around.

You point to cultural influence as a possible blocker, if you will, of/in the mind, and I can understand this to a point, being that the mind has ways of working against itself. Maybe the mind, because of cultural influence, can put up walls that prevent such actions as telepathy from happening. But what about the areas of the world that are more accepting of different mind capabilities, or what about, take the Christian prayer experiments on open-heart surgery patients, these individuals aren’t limited in their scope of what they believe could/should/will happen, but we still don’t see the results as being affective. So I don’t think that cultural influence is necessarily the reason why Greater Magic doesn’t work.

I would be curious to see what you (or anyone else that wishes to contribute) think the limits of the mind are? What qualities of the paranormal do you attribute as possible? I assume you believe in telepathy from your above post, but what about psychokinesis, precognition, remote viewing? I would guess that effecting the world around you would not just be people, but events, what about objects? Of far can Greater Magic take you?

I personally see Greater Magic as means of understanding the self, it seems to me that it is more of a way to regulate the self, altering perceptions and awareness. But I just can’t see how it extends beyond the self except in the possibility of “finer tuned sense”, if you will, to notice your environment and take advantage of events and your surrounds a little better or more accurately to your desired outcome.

I am also curious if you or anyone can point to situations that may prove that Greater Magic does influence or affect the outside world. Like I said before, I just haven’t seen the evidence, but that doesn’t mean others haven’t and it there is something somewhere that can show that it works, I would be interested in looking into that. But as of current I just don’t understand how someone can believe that they influence world strictly on willpower.

I didn't mean that it's about a personal fantasy for me though. While those are great, they are only great to the extent that it helps attain results in the real world of course.

I understand that Greater Magic also has to do with manipulating others. Greater and Lesser Magic are not necessarily mutually exclusive and I didn't try to imply so. It makes sense why you mentioned LaVey's quote from Satanic Rituals"The more readily one can apply the principles needed to effect a proficiency in Lesser Magic, the greater one's chances of attaining through the use of ritual - or ceremonial - magic." -page 21 of The Satanic Rituals

Yes, Lesser Magic is in the realm of common sense and Greater Magic is not. I see Lesser Magic as having the ability to act effectively in a social setting. I might call it social cunning or intuition. It may be common sense to some, but unfortunately not so much to me. There is just so much to learn in that regard too!

"Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy."

Are you suggesting that authority and peer pressure are the only obstacles to being good at telepathy and other things outside of common view of reality?

Personally I have not conducted any telepathy experiments; I just don’t know anyone who claims they have telepathic powers. But in an answer to your questions, and thank you for your reply, am I certain it’ not viable enough. Yes, in my eyes and in what I’ve read, but it’s tough to say 100%. I can also understand that what you may be alluding to, that the results of certain “experiments”, cannot always be taken as “fact”, especially if all I am doing is reading or taking someone else’s word for it.

As far as praying being the same thing as Greater Magic, I tend to think so. Again the reason why would be that imagery is used (the deity) to create an emotional, and very often powerfully emotional, experience in the person praying. The prayer is focused to a god, which can be thought of as a creation in the mind of the person praying, to push the emotional desire, the outcome of the prayer, to its intended target. This I see very similar to Satanic rituals using Satanic imagery rather than (fill in the blank god or religious) imagery to attempt the same result, the desired outcome of the individual doing the ritual. At least this is my understanding of these processes, and I could be wrong, I do not claim an expert on any of these topics.

But the danger in splitting hairs about prayer or Greater Magic is that someone somewhere might say, well prayer isn’t going to work cause its Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Hindu, or Blah Blah Blah, and not Satanic. What makes the imagery more viable than another is strictly in the eye of the beholder is it not? I just don’t what this to turn into a “We are the only ones that can do it because we’re Satanist” or “Only Satanist can do magic, no one else can”. And please understand I am not assuming you or anyone is saying that, but it’s something that may pop up by a (in my eyes) less educated individual.

As far as the fact that my rituals don’t work making all others are null and void, absolutely not. As I said, I am no magician and claim that I do not have any viable proof either from my own rituals, or others, old friends of mine, or other “magicians” I have know. But does this say that others cannot do it, no, but in my experience I am more inclined to say that ritual doesn’t actually affect the world around you. Now do rituals produce an affect on the mind of the individuals participating in them, sure, but that doesn’t mean the outside world, just individual’s perceptions of it.

I would think that in order to verify a ritual being successful would be to first know what the desired goal was, then, if the outcome happened, look at the possible situations that were present to cause the outcome. Having ruled out all other possibilities than the ritual, then I would call that a success.

This of course is just my experience, I would be interested in hearing actual evidence of Greater Magic working, but I know that some people may not wish to talk about said evidence, keeping the mystery there does have some power too. But I wont be heartbroken if others don’t share, such is life.

I understand what you are suggesting and have really only two replies I can offer in this context.

First, I would suggest that you may be only aware of evidence from individuals and groups who have a prejudiced agenda regarding the evidence for psi. You might consider looking at what the "other side" has to offer in terms of evidence. A good place to begin that kind of effort is http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/New/index.html .

Second, as I have made quite clear previously, I have no intention of arguing with nor attempting to convince anyone of anything in this regard. Greater Magic requires personal effort to test and validate results. Failure must be rigorously acknowledged as well as success. Otherwise the effort will only at best result in self-delusion.

From a practical, utilitarian perspective most Satanists will never need to use Greater Magic, as Lesser Magic can usually get you the results you might desire faster and more easily as I have discussed briefly in this thread.

And, quite frankly, the more personal evidence you produce that Greater Magic does not or cannot work for you, the more deeply you dig for yourself a psychological hole you would need to climb back out of in order to make it work for you in the future. This is an area in which just trying harder can backfire in my opinion.

It is entirely possible to produce negative hallucinations through hypnosis in which the subject cannot see another person in the same room. It is quite easy to understand from this extreme but very real clinical example how what we permit ourselves to perceive can be controlled by suggestions we accept from others.

So from a very practical perspective I offer that if someone has tendencies to assume that Greater Magic cannot create change beyond the confines of their own skin, they would be wise to not condition themselves to reinforce that assumption.

Don't try to do "impossible" things.

You will eventually "prove" they are impossible.

For any reading these words who would wish to avoid that kind of problem, my suggestion would be to begin by asking yourself exactly why you assume that real magic cannot work.

Apply doubt.

Do research.

If after that you find you can weaken the "certainty" that you are just kidding yourself about all of this then you might be better able to consciously discover that Greater Magic can work for you.

Again, this all goes back to two suppositions I happen to hold:

(1) If you feel that real magic is "bunk" then honor your feelings and stick to Lesser Magic.

(2) Lesser Magic is not inferior to Greater Magic. It simply requires less to successfully employ than the other one does.

NemoThank you very much for taking the time to reply, much food for thought as well. I can see where I may 1) putting too much thought into one side of the argument 2) wasting time in an area that my just not be worth my time if I continue to dig the whole I’m in. So thank you and Phineas as well.

It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.

Sometimes the poker face just doesn't work because everyone can see your hand. So this is where ultra covert manipulation with seemingly infinite nuance is required. It can be enough to burn a brain to charcoal if one doesn't keep their priorities simple.

"Now if you wanted someone you could not see or write or speak to at a distance to do something for you, then if would be harder for you because in our culture we are regularly told that telepathy is not real by authority figures. To oppose that kind of authority and overcome that kind of peer pressure is certainly not easy."

Are you suggesting that authority and peer pressure are the only obstacles to being good at telepathy and other things outside of common view of reality?

I've found that anything that distracts your thoughts from the object(s) of your Greater magic will muddle the results. I assume this is why Anton LaVey taught that it be practiced with ceremony in an enclosed space dedicated to the sole purpose of the magic.

Similarly, this can be seen with Remote Viewing, as the viewer will deprive their senses as much as possible and set aside up to an hour or two for clearing the mind before viewing.

I think it all comes from the same place. Intense concentration is required and any outside pressures and ideologies must be cleared before proceeding.

It's like playing poker with the ultimate pokerface, make sure no-one sees through your system.

Sometimes the poker face just doesn't work because everyone can see your hand. So this is where ultra covert manipulation with seemingly infinite nuance is required. It can be enough to burn a brain to charcoal if one doesn't keep their priorities simple.

A good player doesn't reveal anything.

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He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest. || Benjamin Franklin ||