I think that's rather sad. A true music lover wouldn't need a pricy amp to enjoy music.

This statement reminds me of something I read in an audio engineering textbook from the 60s. Here is what it said:

"A frequency response of 100Hz to 10kHz is more than sufficient for any audio equipment. Beyond this range the listener will hear music artifacts that are not supposed to be heard such as musician's sliding fingers on instruments or taking a breath".

This statement reminds me of something I read in an audio engineering textbook from the 60s. Here is what it said:

"A frequency response of 100Hz to 10kHz is more than sufficient for any audio equipment. Beyond this range the listener will hear music artifacts that are not supposed to be heard such as musician's sliding fingers on instruments or taking a breath".

Sliding fingers and breaths are both within the 100 hz to 10 khz range. That statement doesn't make any sense to me.

The world is full of expert opinions supported by decades of hands-on experience and unbiased research. Here are some other pearls of wisdom :

"I have talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." ~ The editor in charge of business books, Prentice Hall, 1957.
"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home." ~ Kenneth H. Olson, President, DEC, Convention of the World Future Society, 1977.

Thanks to your (I mean all of you) education I cannot say what I said yesterday anymore: "I cannot unhear or unbelieve". Now am left with only the "I cannot unhear".

I've heard you guys and you are right. But your being right doesn't make my music enjoyment experience better. The power amp does.

It is that simple.

So why criticize people who think that power amps DON'T make a difference? I can't enjoy difference because the acoustics in my room are horrible and my speakers are rated at 40 watts so my receiver can handle it no problem. "Audiophiles are obsessed with buying expensive speakers and other audio gear when speaker placement and room acoustics will give the same results," Alan Parsons.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."

So why criticize people who think that power amps DON'T make a difference? I can't enjoy difference because the acoustics in my room are horrible and my speakers are rated at 40 watts so my receiver can handle it no problem. "Audiophiles are obsessed with buying expensive speakers and other audio gear when speaker placement and room acoustics will give the same results," Alan Parsons.

Please show me one instance when I criticized you. Disagreed - yes, but never criticized. Thanks.

Please show me one instance when I criticized you. Disagreed - yes, but never criticized. Thanks.

Disagree is what I meant, sorry. I agree with you that receivers make a difference, but disagree that there is a major difference between a NAD and a Mcintosh (I like Mcintosh btw) in terms of THD, not power which means nothing for most people. I just listened to "Since I've been loving you" by Led Zepplin on my 25 watt receiver and it had no problem driving my mid-fi Utah speakers. As a matter of fact my "new" receiver sounds better than my old 60 watt Pioneer! My receiver is has about the same distortion as NAD's C-725BEE-Stereo-Receiver and has almost the same amount of power, just because something is old doesn't mean it's worse. Is a Stradivarius violin worse because it's older, hell no! My receiver is Class A (about 90% sure based on power consumption and heat output at idle) which means it has linear distortion. There are Pioneer receivers from the 80's going for over a thousand on Ebay right now. Why? Because they sound better than the new amps.

Disagree is what I meant, sorry. I agree with you that receivers make a difference, but disagree that there is a major difference between a NAD and a Mcintosh (I like Mcintosh btw) in terms of THD, not power which means nothing for most people. I just listened to "Since I've been loving you" by Led Zepplin on my 25 watt receiver and it had no problem driving my mid-fi Utah speakers. As a matter of fact my "new" receiver sounds better than my old 60 watt Pioneer! My receiver is has about the same distortion as NAD's C-725BEE-Stereo-Receiver and has almost the same amount of power, just because something is old doesn't mean it's worse. Is a Stradivarius violin worse because it's older, hell no! My receiver is Class A (about 90% sure based on power consumption and heat output at idle) which means it has linear distortion. There are Pioneer receivers from the 80's going for over a thousand on Ebay right now. Why? Because they sound better than the new amps.

Right. There comes a time in every thread's life when it has served its purpose. Anybody who reads it can see that clearly.
Originally opened to answer a question on CD transports, it was somehow rerouted on a completely different course ("are all power amps useless?") and now it derailed into something nobody wants to read or post in. It is a steaming pile of blood, guts and rubble by the side of the tracks.
A lot of interesting information was exchanged. Audio experts with decades of combined engineering/listening experience graciously lent a helping hand with their informed opinions in this very thread. It is only reasonable that most knowledgeable experts are also most opinionated, so a lot of sniper crossfire was exchanged (I caught some shrapnel myself for being arrogant). Some of the information we found to be nonsensical, other - indispensable. The indispensable data is always what we provide and others utterly reject; and nonsense is what others mistakenly consider the absolute truth. That is all expected. All in good fun.
As an educational opportunity this thread is dead and buried. It still has some residual value as an arena for occasional insults, though. I don't want to participate in something like that. I will make one more post - I asked a guy who is an expert in these matters to weigh in on the amp question - and then I will officially proclaim this thread officially closed. I realize that people will still be able to post here afterwards.
Couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. But I will not come back, except for the last quote - I need his permission first.

First, remember that back in the 80's Stereo Review had a writer, Julian Hirsch, who wore hearing aids and reviewed, among other things, speakers!

Second, how much musical detail you can hear is limited by the weakest link in the chain from source to speaker.

Third, trust your own ears. They are your ears and it is your wallet.

Fourth, for many folks good enough is fine. Anything better just doesn't seem to make any difference to them.

I have been engaged in the High Fidelity hobby for more than 50 years. First as a music lover and for the past 10 years or so as a consultant to a number of individuals and households.

One of the mistakes that many of those who say the Amps in your AVR are fine and using a stand alone amp doesn't make any difference outside of a lighter wallet is a failure to understand that a speaker is a reactive load on the Amp. There is a good deal more than the power output of an Amp involved.

The biggest problem with the Amps in an AVR is the size of the power supply supplying 7 or more amps. Hook up 4 Ohm speakers to the AVR and listen at reference levels. I don't think you would find the results pleasant.

Lift your AVR. Now lift your XPA-3. Which do you think is more capable of driving your front and center channels?

Your ears have already told you and this is NOT your mind playing tricks.

Thanks for that quote. I know the thread has de-railed and I think I caused it to. He got it right if you put 4 ohm speakers on most AVRs it would not be pleasant but most AVR's have no problem driving 8 ohm speakers and can handle 6 ohm loads pretty well too. Another thing that isn't mentioned in that quote is that a 4 ohm speaker can actually be much MUCH lower than 4 ohms, there are very few amps that can handle anything below 4 ohms. I'm not judging anyone who buys expensive amps because I will at some point be doing the same thing.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."

First, remember that back in the 80's Stereo Review had a writer, Julian Hirsch, who wore hearing aids and reviewed, among other things, speakers!

Not necessary to wear one's hearing aids to review speakers. There is a volume control.

Quote:

Second, how much musical detail you can hear is limited by the weakest link in the chain from source to speaker.

And the weakest link is the speaker system always.

Quote:

Third, trust your own ears.

Doesn't deserve a response. We've covered that over and over and over and.......

Quote:

Fourth, for many folks good enough is fine. Anything better just doesn't seem to make any difference to them.

And that means that it doesn't seem to make any difference to an audio objectivist. I'm insulted

Quote:

I have been engaged in the High Fidelity hobby for more than 50 years. First as a music lover and for the past 10 years or so as a consultant to a number of individuals and households.

Same with me. I guess that gives me the experience to call his post nonsense.

Quote:

One of the mistakes that many of those who say the Amps in your AVR are fine and using a stand alone amp doesn't make any difference outside of a lighter wallet is a failure to understand that a speaker is a reactive load on the Amp. There is a good deal more than the power output of an Amp involved

What is it I don't understand? Was he planning to explain what this means or is he just throwing out terms he's learned in his 50 years with audio?.

Quote:

The biggest problem with the Amps in an AVR is the size of the power supply supplying 7 or more amps. Hook up 4 Ohm speakers to the AVR and listen at reference levels. I don't think you would find the results pleasant.

Why not? I do it every day. Mr. Audio doesn't seem to understand how much power his system actually uses.

Quote:

Lift your AVR. Now lift your XPA-3. Which do you think is more capable of driving your front and center channels?

Why? Does weight have something to do with sound quality?

Quote:

Your ears have already told you and this is NOT your mind playing tricks.

Oh but his mind has been playing tricks on him for 50 years. Been there done that. My question, Vlad, is what is the point of posting a nonsensical post here as though it is some sort of credible source?

if you put 4 ohm speakers on most AVRs it would not be pleasant but most AVR's have no problem driving 8 ohm speakers and can handle 6 ohm loads pretty well too.

It depends. A lot of speakers rated at 8 ohms really ought to be rated at 6 or even 4 ohms. And yet, most AVRs seem to have no trouble driving these mis-rated speakers, at least a stereo pair. A "4-ohm" speaker that dips to 3 ohms isn't that much more difficult to drive than an "8-ohm" speaker that dips to 3.6 ohms. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of AVRs could handle many a pair of 4-ohm speakers just fine. I'd want to see some real data before making definitive statements on this.

Also, the consequences of trying to drive a speaker with an amp that can't handle it are obvious. If you don't know you have a problem, then you don't. (And if you think you have a problem, you should investigate more carefully!)

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

It depends. A lot of speakers rated at 8 ohms really ought to be rated at 6 or even 4 ohms. And yet, most AVRs seem to have no trouble driving these mis-rated speakers, at least a stereo pair. A "4-ohm" speaker that dips to 3 ohms isn't that much more difficult to drive than an "8-ohm" speaker that dips to 3.6 ohms. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of AVRs could handle many a pair of 4-ohm speakers just fine. I'd want to see some real data before making definitive statements on this.

Also, the consequences of trying to drive a speaker with an amp that can't handle it are obvious. If you don't know you have a problem, then you don't. (And if you think you have a problem, you should investigate more carefully!)

People forget that the impedance ratings on amps are done at full output power. It is a very rare home audio system that uses full output power. It you want a lower impedance rating just lower the power rating. 4 ohms isn't a problem at 5 watts or 10 watts or 15 watts or whatever the typical installation actually uses. The industry has done a great job with the scare tactics to cause fear of speaker impedance.

Most audiophiles would cringe at my bedroom system. I have a bottom-of-the-line AV receiver rated at 80 watts per channel and no low impedance rating driving 4 ohm speakers to uncomfortably loud levels. The receiver isn't even very well ventilated and never gets hot to the touch. I don't know how far I could go before the receiver would overheat mostly because the SPL would upset my wife.

Exceptional cases are the exception. The typical case is no where near the exceptional case. But we audio objectivists are talking into a big wind generated by the industry and nobody hears.

It depends. A lot of speakers rated at 8 ohms really ought to be rated at 6 or even 4 ohms. And yet, most AVRs seem to have no trouble driving these mis-rated speakers, at least a stereo pair. A "4-ohm" speaker that dips to 3 ohms isn't that much more difficult to drive than an "8-ohm" speaker that dips to 3.6 ohms. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of AVRs could handle many a pair of 4-ohm speakers just fine. I'd want to see some real data before making definitive statements on this.

Also, the consequences of trying to drive a speaker with an amp that can't handle it are obvious. If you don't know you have a problem, then you don't. (And if you think you have a problem, you should investigate more carefully!)

I agree that there are plenty of speakers that dip to 3 ohms but those are the speakers that I avoid because it's just too hard on the amplifier. My old Pioneer receiver could drive a 6 ohm speaker at a low level but if you cranked it up the bass was distorted and it would heat up a whole bedroom. Same thing goes if you put a 8 ohm speaker on a 3 ohm receiver, I actually burnt the circuit board on my old HTIB because I put my Utah's on them.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."

People forget that the impedance ratings on amps are done at full output power. It is a very rare home audio system that uses full output power. It you want a lower impedance rating just lower the power rating. 4 ohms isn't a problem at 5 watts or 10 watts or 15 watts or whatever the typical installation actually uses. The industry has done a great job with the scare tactics to cause fear of speaker impedance.

Most audiophiles would cringe at my bedroom system. I have a bottom-of-the-line AV receiver rated at 80 watts per channel and no low impedance rating driving 4 ohm speakers to uncomfortably loud levels. The receiver isn't even very well ventilated and never gets hot to the touch. I don't know how far I could go before the receiver would overheat mostly because the SPL would upset my wife.

Exceptional cases are the exception. The typical case is no where near the exceptional case. But we audio objectivists are talking into a big wind generated by the industry and nobody hears.

I worry about impedance now because I have a Class A amplifier which runs hot the lower the volume is. The typical class A/B amp runs cool the lower the volume is (depending on bias) so mismatching impedance won't usually be a problem unless you are pushing the amplifier toward it's wattage limit. Impedance is something you should be considered about because even if your amplifier can handle a low impedance load it's still harder on the caps and will decrease the life. Just my 0.02

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."

Right. There comes a time in every thread's life when it has served its purpose. Anybody who reads it can see that clearly.
Originally opened to answer a question on CD transports, it was somehow rerouted on a completely different course ("are all power amps useless?") and now it derailed into something nobody wants to read or post in. It is a steaming pile of blood, guts and rubble by the side of the tracks.
A lot of interesting information was exchanged. Audio experts with decades of combined engineering/listening experience graciously lent a helping hand with their informed opinions in this very thread. It is only reasonable that most knowledgeable experts are also most opinionated, so a lot of sniper crossfire was exchanged (I caught some shrapnel myself for being arrogant). Some of the information we found to be nonsensical, other - indispensable. The indispensable data is always what we provide and others utterly reject; and nonsense is what others mistakenly consider the absolute truth. That is all expected. All in good fun.
As an educational opportunity this thread is dead and buried. It still has some residual value as an arena for occasional insults, though. I don't want to participate in something like that. I will make one more post - I asked a guy who is an expert in these matters to weigh in on the amp question - and then I will officially proclaim this thread officially closed. I realize that people will still be able to post here afterwards.
Couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. But I will not come back, except for the last quote - I need his permission first.

This is actually pretty funny.

Announce that you don't like explosions, then toss a lit match where the dynamite is kept.

I agree that there are plenty of speakers that dip to 3 ohms but those are the speakers that I avoid because it's just too hard on the amplifier.

Well, that's your choice. My gut feeling is that you are being overly cautious about this, but I can't say you're wrong.

Quote:

I actually burnt the circuit board on my old HTIB because I put my Utah's on them.

HTiB receivers are designed to run the speakers they're sold with, nothing more.

Quote:

I worry about impedance now because I have a Class A amplifier which runs hot the lower the volume is.

I thought we were talking about AVRs vs. dedicated power amps. Not many Class A AVRs out there. Again, you are talking about unusual situations. Of course if your amp is overheating you need a different amp. But a typical AVR might not overheat in such a situation.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

Well, that's your choice. My gut feeling is that you are being overly cautious about this, but I can't say you're wrong.
HTiB receivers are designed to run the speakers they're sold with, nothing more.
I thought we were talking about AVRs vs. dedicated power amps. Not many Class A AVRs out there. Again, you are talking about unusual situations. Of course if your amp is overheating you need a different amp. But a typical AVR might not overheat in such a situation.

"Well, that's your choice. My gut feeling is that you are being overly cautious about this, but I can't say you're wrong."

I am being overly cautious because my receiver is at least 34 years old so the capacitors could go anytime soon. Don't really want to shell out 100$ on capacitors.

"HTiB receivers are designed to run the speakers they're sold with, nothing more."

Not true, if I used a pair of 4 ohm speakers there wouldn't have been a problem.

"I thought we were talking about AVRs vs. dedicated power amps. Not many Class A AVRs out there. Again, you are talking about unusual situations. Of course if your amp is overheating you need a different amp. But a typical AVR might not overheat in such a situation."

I was talking about power amps and receivers. My receiver is Class A.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."

I am being overly cautious because my receiver is at least 34 years old so the capacitors could go anytime soon. Don't really want to shell out 100$ on capacitors.

Again, an uncommon case.

Quote:

"HTiB receivers are designed to run the speakers they're sold with, nothing more."

Not true, if I used a pair of 4 ohm speakers there wouldn't have been a problem.

No, they typically are designed to run the speakers they came with. That doesn't mean they can't run others, and some of them may be able to run a lot of others. But to generalize from HTiB receivers to all receivers is absurd.

Quote:

I was talking about power amps and receivers. My receiver is Class A.

Very rare, IME.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

Disagree is what I meant, sorry. I agree with you that receivers make a difference, but disagree that there is a major difference between a NAD and a Mcintosh (I like Mcintosh btw) in terms of THD

Would the difference in THD be audible between the NAD and Macintosh? Would the THD of just the NAD and Macintosh on their own be audible? Would the THD of your garden variety AVR be audible?

Quote:

There are Pioneer receivers from the 80's going for over a thousand on Ebay right now. Why? Because they sound better than the new amps.

How do they? Do they present something other than a flat frequency response? We're talking solid state gear here, right? I'm interested in why this phenomena exists for 80's Pioneer receivers, and why audio-video enthusiasts across the board aren't dumping their gear for this stuff, and why AVR manufacturers aren't cloning the designs.

Would the difference in THD be audible between the NAD and Macintosh? Would the THD of just the NAD and Macintosh on their own be audible? Would the THD of your garden variety AVR be audible?
How do they? Do they present something other than a flat frequency response? We're talking solid state gear here, right? I'm interested in why this phenomena exists for 80's Pioneer receivers, and why audio-video enthusiasts across the board aren't dumping their gear for this stuff, and why AVR manufacturers aren't cloning the designs.

"Would the difference in THD be audible between the NAD and Macintosh? Would the THD of just the NAD and Macintosh on their own be audible? Would the THD of your garden variety AVR be audible?"

Probably not. Exactly my point!

" I'm interested in why this phenomena exists for 80's Pioneer receivers, and why audio-video enthusiasts across the board aren't dumping their gear for this stuff, and why AVR manufacturers aren't cloning the designs."

Again, an uncommon case.
No, they typically are designed to run the speakers they came with. That doesn't mean they can't run others, and some of them may be able to run a lot of others. But to generalize from HTiB receivers to all receivers is absurd.
Very rare, IME.

"Again, an uncommon case."

More common than you think.

"No, they typically are designed to run the speakers they came with. That doesn't mean they can't run others, and some of them may be able to run a lot of others. But to generalize from HTiB receivers to all receivers is absurd.
Very rare, IME."

Sony made hitb receivers that could run other speakers. Other receivers might not burn up but they are going to run hotter.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."