Anonymous. Well answered. We probably have many more competitions than you do. In smaller competitions its not uncommon for there to be only one couple entered in their grade. They will take to the floor and dance their dances whether it be one or five. There could also be two or three or more dancers , and maybe only one dance. The same. They all get there full quota.Sometimes it can be very interesting if a really good couple are alone it becomes a Demonstration.But that doesn't alter the fact that to be on the floor judging your own pupils cant be right. And if that one rotten apple does, then the rest do it also. Otherwise they put themselves and their pupils at a disadvantage. Would you agree with that last sentance

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by anymouse

8/19/2008 5:08:00 PM

"But that doesn't alter the fact that to be on the floor judging your own pupils cant be right."

I disagree. I don't think it's ideal, but I'd rather have experts who teach the competitors than 2nd rate dancers who aren't expert enough for any competitors to want to study with them. Besides, if a judge has couples in the event, they are as likely to have several as just one.

This isn't stuff you can learn from a book - you need first hand experience as a dancer yourself, then as a teacher, and also as a judge, before you will really be expert at any of those things.

"And if that one rotten apple does, then the rest do it also."

If they judge based on who gives them business, then they are all bad apples. You started out saying one bad apple can ruin it, I contend that they can't - one has very little effect at all, a few can be a problem and move overall placements slightly, but it takes a majority of the panel to generate a drastically wrong result. That's why we use the skating system and not a simple average.

"Otherwise they put themselves and their pupils at a disadvantage. Would you agree with that last sentance"

Absolutely not. A teacher who develops good dance skills in their students will have their students well marked by any skilled judge. Only the inept need resort to corruption.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by Polished

8/19/2008 5:30:00 PM

Anonymous. You have made your position very clear. You do believe that a person should judge their own pupils. You have given several reasons why you think its correct. I will never agree with that. If this went before Judge Judy . I wonder what her ruling would be. Is that program still on over there.And I will say again. It takes only one person to manipulate any system to their advantage and others will have no choice but to do the same. That why one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by anymouse

8/19/2008 7:10:00 PM

"Anonymous. You have made your position very clear. You do believe that a person should judge their own pupils."

Once again, you paraphrase someone's argument with critical changes instead of quoting it.

I've said repeatedly that having the teachers judging their students is not ideal, but that it's preferable to having second rate teacher or judges.

"You have given several reasons why you think its correct."

No, I have stated why it is not as problematic at serious competitions as you seem to believe it would be.

"And I will say again. It takes only one person to manipulate any system to their advantage and others will have no choice but to do the same. That why one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel."

You've repeatedly failed to explain how "one person" can manipulate the skating system of mark tabulation. That's the whole point of the skating system - a biased judge or two can't pull or push the results very more than a place or so on their own, because it takes a majority of the panel to award a placement. Experienced dancers and judges know this, which is why we're more interested in improving our dancing to play to the honest majority of judges, rather than in finding our own ways to cheat.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by Polished

8/19/2008 7:38:00 PM

Anonymous Can you find your way to Dancsport UK . Then Articles and Interveiws Then to How can a couple lose when the majority of judges marked them to win .. Read it for yourself and the comment if you think it can't happen. Also in smaller competitions I doubt if the Skating System is used. Imagine three judges Three competitors Two of the judges judging their own. What chance has the third couple got.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by anymouse

8/19/2008 8:15:00 PM

"Anonymous Can you find your way to Dancsport UK .Then Articles and InterveiwsThen to How can a couple lose when the majority of judges marked them to win .."

That article fails to state what the real issue is: under skating except in the case of ties, the result in each of the five dances is determined using all of the judges' marks for that dance alone, and then then the results of the dances are combined to determine the overall winner. The article is based on the premise, which it fails to state, that if you instead treated each judge as a panel of one and determined who they had as the overall five-dance winner, and combined those results from each judge, that this would give a different result.

But this is not relevant to the discussion of bias or corruption, because it was about the precise placement between two couples who were very nearly tied in the collective eyes of the judging pool. That's a very different case than the inability of one maverick judge to substantially distort the majority voice by voting in an extreme manner - they can perhaps swap the tabulated results of closely matched couples, but the algorithm prevents them from moving a weak couple to the front or a top couple to the bottom. Under skating it ordinarily doesn't matter if their vote is one mark away from the majority or 5 marks away from the majority, it still has the same limited effect.

Due to this, the skillfully dishonest judge would cast marks only one place away from the expected opinion of the the others - it would have the same quite limited effect as outrageous marks, and such minor differences of opinion could usually be defended.

"Also in smaller competitions I doubt if the Skating System is used."

I have only ever seen one instance in which it was not used, and it was not used due to the ignorance of the first time organizers. There were many complaints and they never made that mistake again.

"Imagine three judges Three competitors Two of the judges judging their own. What chance has the third couple got."

As I said before, if there are only three judges all bets are off. No serious competition uses so few.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by Polished

8/24/2008 3:53:00 AM

Anonymous. So all of your writting tells us nothing. Is it possible under the Skating system for a pair to score more firsts and not win. Did it actually happen. And you never answered yes or no to . If there are three judges. Three competitors. Two of the judges are judging their own . What chance has the third couple got. Would you give them any chance.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by anymouse

8/24/2008 9:40:00 PM

"Anonymous. So all of your writting tells us nothing. Is it possible under the Skating system for a pair to score more firsts and not win. "

It's always possible to score more firsts and not win. Thats part of what projects us from biased or simply bad judges who give outlying marks.

Winning requires securing a majority of marks for a higher place than anyone else, and in the cited example that did not happen in enough dances for the couple that the author thinks should have won.

The article you reference is very misleading - it acts as if the judges award overall placements for five dances combined, which they simply do not. As a result, the situation as literally cited never occurred, because the marks referenced simply do not exist - there are no rules in the book for combining placements in each dance by judge to determining overall 5-dance placements by judge, so it's impossible to have a majority of them.

Instead, if you follow the rules that do exist in the book, you award first in each dance to the couple who secures high placements from a majority of judges, and then the overall winner is determined by combining the placements per dance.

"Did it actually happen. And you never answered yes or no to . If there are three judges. Three competitors. Two of the judges are judging their own . What chance has the third couple got. Would you give them any chance."

If they are better than the others, yes. A judge who mis marks couples is simply embarrassing himself. But as I've said repeatedly, a competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by Polished

8/25/2008 3:12:00 PM

Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up. It is as important for that couple as it would be if it was the final at the British. What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn't know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don't know how you didn't win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time. You he added were in time and together . The other two weren't. If you think this is an isolated case I don't know were you have been hiding. No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree.If you don't you must be as dishonest as they are.I would suggest that you now look at the thread below " Unfair Judging "Which seems to have suddenly disapeared for some reason.I just looked at your coments earlier.8.19.08 You made it very clear that you are in favour of judges judging their own pupils .

Subject:

Message:

Re: Judging own pupils

Posted by anymouse

8/25/2008 3:30:00 PM

"Anonymous. A competition with only three judges is too small to be taken seriously.Try telling that to a young lady who has bought a new dress practised hard , been to the hairdesser.paid special attention to her make up."

Such an event can be a great way for a partnership to rehearse and put their best effort forward. But it should not be though of as a "real" competition. An event which violates usual rules and procedures that seriously, such as by having only three judges, is quite likely to have other procedural violations as well.

Think of it as a fun opportunity to dance. But don't fool yourself into thinking that it necessarily means anything.

"What would you say if I told you that after the event one of the three judges ,who she didn't know from a bar of soap, came over and said I don't know how you didn't win that event. I marked you first.The other two both went out of time."

Dancing involves many factors, and timing is only one of them, not the whole story. Often times in low level events, a couple who is rhythmically on time is doing some ugly things in their dancing to get there, while one that is off time may be dancing much more naturally and gracefully, because they are not making those compromises. You see this quite often in the foxtrot - most beginners simply don't have the strength to dance in time without distorting their posture and making their movement "bumpy" and overtly rhythmic rather than smoothly flowing as a stronger and more experienced couple would.

In that circumstance, being on time has a dance quality cost that will lower your marks from some judges, while being off time is a fault that will get you low marks from others. This diversity of priorities is part of why we have large panels, and why the skating system prioritizes getting decent marks from a majority of the judges instead of getting excellent marks from a minority of them.

"No judge should judge their own pupils. If it were found that they did they should be banned from judging. Do you agree."

I absolutely do not agree. If you think that someone should be banned for doing what is universal and rarely problematic practice, then you are living in your own private little world of unreality. The rest of us spend our time dancing in the real world, and improving our skills to earn marks from all of the honest judges.

If you want something to worry about, try the real problems that do plague smaller events unable to hire enough top-notch judges to always have a fully expert and attentive panel: fatigue, incompetence and intoxication...