Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 15, 2018 21:09:07 GMT -6

I've come to realize in the last couple of years that I think "Metroidvania" has become a separate genre now.

It used to mean these CV games, but now it's a whole lot of stuff that's way more Metroid than vania. Usually focuses on action and skill trees, combo systems and blocking - things that Castlevania doesn't have in the 2D games, the Igavanias. Progression unlocks are also usually more important in these newer Metroidvania titles. Conversely, IGA's CV games are more about being open, exploring and collecting things. Almost what you'd say is a 2D side-scrolling RPG collect-a-thon.

I realized this when I saw people asking to speed Bloodstained up and give it a combo system, blocking, etc. That's not what it is. However, that is certainly what "Metroidvania" has mostly become in the indie space, which is all more very Metroid to me.

In this, I think that we can safely carve out Igavania as being the real genre we're looking at for Bloodstained and retroactively IGA's older games. So many times now, someone has said "ooh new Metroidvania, check it out man", and it's generally this other thing, not what I've been looking for. It was a smart move to right off call this game by its own true genre, "Igavania".

Post by XombieMike on Jan 15, 2018 21:52:34 GMT -6

This is an interesting subject.

So can you define IGAvania apart from a Metroidvania? I think SotN started with blocking by having shields, and I think there were combos like when you can hit again once you land. There are even special moves like in Street Fighter.

I appreciate the advancements of the genre, and I count a game like Quacamelee to be an improvement well within the definition of a Metroidvania. It's not an RPG system, but it's the same exploration that includes back tracking and experimenting with your new abilities (or items).

If you think the RPG system is what defines an IGAvania, consider games like Dust: Elysian Trail have a combo system, but include xp and stat increases that are custom.

Let's call it for what it is. They went with "IGAvania" to show it's a Metroidvania by IGA. It's Metroidvania without the Metroid part... so it's Castlevania as defined by the SotN style, which IGA helped create. I think it's a brilliant way to say this is Castlevania but its not Castlevania.

Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 16, 2018 2:16:19 GMT -6

This is really hard to consider.

First of all, we need to admit that Metroidvania and Igavania are sister genres. One was born thanks to the other, and they share several traits. What could make them different is really debatable, but even so, they may have some differences that could justify the different names, other than just avoiding copyright issues by using "Metroid" name as your definition of a genre. But that's really hard to see. Maybe, Bloodstained will be able to show up actual, easy-to-see differences between what we call Metroidvania and Igavanias.

I consider Igavania and Metroidvania the same genre, but i call" IGAVANIA" if the game was created, directed or with some involvement of Koji Igarashi OR the game closely follows his path on "Metroidvania Gothic game" style.

Post by ikai on Jan 16, 2018 4:15:16 GMT -6

Symphony of the night had shield block and even combos, by combos i mean the shield rod and alucard shield and certain item combinations, like power of the sire and that infinite symbol item... I wouldn't like the spiritual successor to true Castlevania (Bloodstained) to be more like those modern indie iterations and it is true, especially as per their playerbase's and fan's discussions, that those are indeed more after Metroid style, than Castlevania.

Not that i played many of those games (the as of now well established "Metroidvania" genre), but one i did play fully through and found it as close as possible to "getting right the old castlevania feel", was "Unepic", for me (minus its strange, nerdy humor and its so much "unepic" feeling, through and through).

Could work. If Bloodstained tries to be as close as possible to the source (Sotn), then shield block and combos, can exist, fit in and work well, concerning gameplay. I have faith in Iga and the team.

Post by colin on Jan 16, 2018 4:41:18 GMT -6

In this, I think that we can safely carve out Igavania as being the real genre we're looking at for Bloodstained and retroactively IGA's older games. So many times now, someone has said "ooh new Metroidvania, check it out man", and it's generally this other thing, not what I've been looking for. It was a smart move to right off call this game by its own true genre, "Igavania".

Yeah, I always hunt Metroidvanias hoping I'll find something closer to SotN style, rather than Metroid, but 95% of the indie games in the genre these days are quite the opposite.

I think when the core elements of the genre were defined, what was extracted from the Metroid and Castlevania games was the focus on exploration, non-linear pathing, and locked off areas, but not so much the RPG elements (instead focusing on generic powerups). If SotN was existent during the time the genre was codified, it would seem that more was taken from the Metroid franchise than from Castlevania -- but only in the sense that the latter had a wider scope to begin with, much of which was discarded in the process. Not sure when the term actually got coined though.

Combat mechanics and the like are more open to experimentation and advancement as time goes on and I wouldn't hold those to ransom when it comes to the development of new games.

So, Igavania it is! Indie devs, please make more Igavanias instead of these garbage rogue-lite metroidvanias.

Post by freddythemonkey on Jan 16, 2018 6:18:02 GMT -6

To me "metroidvania" has always been a definition of those games in which you explore a huge map with obstacles to overcome with new power ups, and backtracking to use said powers and find secrets. So to me IGAvanias are just that -metroidvanias done by IGA. Ori is not the same as Dust, which is different from Guacamelee, which differs from Hollow Knight and they are not the same as SotN. But they all share the same core formula, they just emphasize on different aspects and throw in ideas of their own.

colin : the only relevant roguelite metroidvania I can think of is Dead Cells which is a far cry from garbage. Also, the vast majority of metroidvanias that stuck out in these years (like the ones I mentioned and more, like Axiom Verge, Owlboy, the Shantae games, Rabi Ribi and so on) are all pretty great. They're different from Symphony of the Night but have their own quirks to make them good.

Obviously in every genre there are some more amateurish or simply not good games, but as a whole the metroidvania style is throbbing with greatness imo

Post by Cale on Jan 16, 2018 7:24:18 GMT -6

I would define Metroidvania as a genre of game; the requirements being:

1. Being a platformer.2. Large, interconnected map.3. Backtracking.4. Progression system of some sort. (Levels/Item Upgrades/Unlocks)5. Bosses.6. Secrets. (Anything not mandatory to complete the game)7. Two-dimensional side scroller.8. A term often used by the Darksouls community (Shortcut Porn). A way to quickly travel around the map.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 16, 2018 9:07:45 GMT -6

Symphony of the night had shield block and even combos, by combos i mean the shield rod and alucard shield and certain item combinations, like power of the sire and that infinite symbol item...

Guys, that's not blocking, and that's not combos. The 3D games have both, definitely, but no pure IGAvania does. You only need to look as far as Lament of Innocence, Leon has a guard button (and even a tighter frame-dependent sweet spot to it) as well as a combo system. So

Alucard holding up a shield: Basically a clash box is held in front of him that will stop a minority of projectiles in the game, all of which you could take out by doing anything else to them, and almost all of which are slow and not damaging. Not a single melee or serious attack can be guarded, and unfortunately we've well-documented how shields are pretty useless even if a significant part of SotN's charm - and I think that was by design. If shields actually DID block things, hahaha...

Shield rod spells/using items together being a combo: that's just, well...using items together and not a combo. Two things at the same time doesn't constitute a combo system. I'm talking about pre-determined attacks in a sequence that have paths and upgrades, which usually necessitates a guard system from the enemies, leading to what IGA has dubbed "hard" enemies:

I watched the Ask IGAs that were posted as Kickstarter updates, and I found one interesting -- where someone asked about a combo-based combat system, and you said you were against putting in a combo system. But to ask about the question behind the question, how do you decide between the gameplay systems you want to stick to your guns, and when you want to change with the times?

BJ: He explains all of this, but then finishes with, "I don't really like 'hard' enemies." And again it goes back down to IGA's principles -- "I don't like really difficult jumps that kill you. I just don't like really 'hard' enemies."

[Ed. note: The word Igarashi uses is "katai," which means hard as in "not soft," not hard as in "challenging."]

KI: It doesn't fit this sort of gameplay, which is a much quicker-paced game. This game is more akin to: The enemy has a pattern, you dodge that pattern, it's got an opening, and even one or two hits can kill enemies in Castlevania games.

And that's to keep the tempo up, make it quick. If you have an enemy you need to do combos on, that instantly suggests the enemy is a "hard" enemy, insomuch as it's blocking high or low, or something like that, and it's totally going to slow down the gameplay for when you're fighting that enemy. And it's going to alter the whole key rhythm of what makes those games great. So while it might be a modern style that a lot of people are using in their games, it probably doesn't fit into this sort of a game.

Lelygax posted this a long time ago. Anyway, this further goes on to show what I mean by the distinction and differences of these games.

As far as can I define an IGAvania apart from a Metroidvania, yes, I think I can and mostly already have:

A focus on light gameplay and exploration over difficult gameplay concepts

More non-linear with much fewer hard locks and more soft locks (how something is/isn't passable in strictly one way)

A plethora of options regarding weapons, abilities, skills and items rather than a few with combo systems and skill paths

And thus, "soft" enemies as seen above

A casual light adventure atmosphere rather than a tense on-edge clincher to simulate an enjoyable explorative feeling - emphasized by energetic melodies (often personally requested to be added/interjected into Yamane's existing work by IGA himself)

A difficulty curve of easier the longer the game is played, such that almost anyone can overcome the challenges with time and somewhat respectable attention to patterns (you guys might remember this interview too)

Secrets and obscure mechanics/items and effects to a beautifully charming degree of "why", evident of dedication in providing fun options instead of more sterile and strict game balance

I could go on with this some more, but I think people might get what I mean. My intention wasn't to make this really long, I kept the first post short on purpose so people would read it lol. Anyway, going more back into my own opinion now, I'd like to think of it as a separate genre, and maybe subgenre, but that seems weak given that what we're talking about is closer to being first. Those other, what I would more accurately call Metroid-likes can have the Metroidvania name imo.

Mana and Angel-Corlux , if someone could pass it on to him, I'd greatly encourage Igarashi-san to carve out and more solidify his own defined genre with Igavania. From his interviews, I think he already separates them, but I want him to know some of his fans get it too. That's the main reason I backed this thing and support it so much still, the other stuff wasn't doing it.

Post by Astaroth on Jan 16, 2018 11:13:20 GMT -6

igavania is its own defined genre already, its any rpg platformer made by IGA and his team (on a side note both metroid and classicvania are action platformers by nature anyway so this separation between action platformer or rpg platformer actually now makes more sense going forward)

but anyway notice how we already have shifted the term from saying that igas making a metroidvania game to igas making an igavania game? >P

Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san quack

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 16, 2018 11:41:46 GMT -6

igavania is its own defined genre already, its any rpg platformer made by IGA and his team (on a side note both metroid and classicvania are action platformers by nature anyway so this separation between action platformer or rpg platformer actually now makes more sense going forward)

but anyway notice how we already have shifted the term from saying that igas making a metroidvania game to igas making an igavania game? >P

Internally, between us and those "in the know" mostly, I'd say we're already there yeah...but to larger bases and in general terms, so many people don't get that there's some important distinction.

Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 16, 2018 12:17:38 GMT -6

SO, considering what everyone said here, we could point out diferences between Metroidvanias and Igavanias by doing a chart. It would be something like this? Let me see if i got it right, considering your opinions (color-coded)

METROIDVANIA / IGAVANIA

Requires some prior knowledge on gaming to beat easily.Light difficulty. Easy enough for a causal player to beat.

Action-oriented gameplay.Exploration-oriented gameplay.

Action focused on combos, skills and abilities that are dependant on the player's skills as a gamer.Action focused on resources, such as weapons, abilities, skills and what the player actually can use at a given time.The main selling point is it's plot, gameplay aspects or overall experience.The main selling point is it's fun factor.Atmosphere dependant on the game itself. It can be dark, hard to see or it can be colorful. Normal or Fast-paced game to take advantage over player's skills.Atmosphere built to be admired and experienced by itself. Slow-paced game to better admire and pay attention to the environment.Usual learning curve. The game does not get easier as it's played, with new challenges to overcome.Easy learning curve. The game gets easier thanks to it's repetition of paterns.

Tutorials, guides, obvious clues and focus on making the player capable of seeing and doing everything the game has to offer.Obscure elements, mechanics and collectibles. The game can take years to find and see it all due to absurdly low drop rates, well hidden stuff or overly convoluted secrets.

I consider Igavania and Metroidvania the same genre, but i call" IGAVANIA" if the game was created, directed or with some involvement of Koji Igarashi OR the game closely follows his path on "Metroidvania Gothic game" style.

Post by Angel-Corlux on Jan 16, 2018 12:53:13 GMT -6

Hey you guys, something like this is ultimately in the realm of subjective opinion I believe.

However, if someone were to ask me for my opinion, I would say that Metroidvania is the "mass market" genre term that (most) people immediately understand to mean certain things, like 2D movement (whether or not in 2D or 3D assets), exploration, combat, RPG mechanics, backtracking, progression, story etc.

As for Igavania, I would absolutely say that it stands as its own genre, for all the reasons mentioned above and more, but for better or worse I think it's safe to say it's a horizontal twin genre of a Metroidvania. By this I mean it's not a subgenre of Metroidvania, because Igavanias are at their core half of that "Metroidvania" namesake.

In this case I think it's a testament to the talent and legacy of Igarashi-san that an Igavania is a Metroidvania made by Iga.

In essence, Iga has his own genre. Which I think is pretty damn cool and impressive, as even most top tier game creators can't say the same.

Post by Redogan on Jan 16, 2018 16:13:08 GMT -6

IGA's CV games are more about being open, exploring and collecting things. Almost what you'd say is a 2D side-scrolling RPG collect-a-thon.

I wouldn't go so far as to place collecting as one of the most important aspects of an IGAvania. Collecting all the items/armor/weapons etc. is more of an afterthought to me--and possibly a way to extend the life of the game's replayability. I definitely wouldn't define the genre based on the ability to collect a bunch of stuff.

I'm not sure if I have said this before somewhere (combo thread maybe?), but with regard to combos. A combo system can make run-of-the-mill enemy kills entertaining. I wouldn't want the combo to extend to more than 3 or 4 hits. Having said that, I'm OK if there is no combo system in place. So, I wouldn't put a combo system in my IGAvania definition either.

Post by neff on Jan 16, 2018 19:01:53 GMT -6

Well, in my opinion, a metroidvania is already a hodgepodge of different game designs, that it shows up in different game from castlevania is a testament to its robustness as a genre. To me, an igavania consists of

Item/equip based Combat systemA large area to explore that opens up as player skill or items unlock new areas.A gorgeous playable character(s). Maybe its my opinion, but igavanias always put more care and thought into their playable character's animation and movements than many a AAA game, its amazing.Just as gorgeous and interesting bosses.Replayability in the form of collections and explorations. This is where I think the major deviation from metroid is. Metroids rewards speed and shortcuts, IGAs rewards completion and thuroughness.

Aztec: I don’t visit the Discord but I want to ask if we have any confirmation about the Ayami Kojima box art and the backer exclusive slip cover coming with my physical game day and date or is that coming also later? I realize the design is secret but when?May 24, 2019 17:34:35 GMT -6

Aztec: Also we’re supposed to get another update next Thursday, yes?May 24, 2019 17:35:04 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: The Discord has been a mad house since yesterday, with random folks giving incorrect answers to things, so I'll just tell you here: the slipcase yes, but the Kojima stuff no.May 24, 2019 17:48:12 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: It's been a while since I heard that specifically asked about and its answer so I'm not 100% sure on the slipcase, but definitely the Kojima art is in a later shipment with the other rewards.May 24, 2019 17:48:38 GMT -6

Galamoth: Though we are still getting another update next Thursday, right?May 24, 2019 19:32:12 GMT -6

Arsenical: *drinks * the game i have been waiting for such a long time is only a few weeks away from me. i am so excited. im sure other peoples here share that excitement so lets read the new threads. . . . . . . oh.May 24, 2019 21:14:53 GMT -6

Arsenical: meh! who cares! i will still enjoy the shiz out of this game and my name will be on the credits. not only that but now i will be able to enjoy full content even if i lose my backer edition so yeah either way i win. *drinks more *May 24, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -6

Arsenical: but am i the only one who thinks that the idea of the steelcases was terrible? why get 3rd party items involved in your project? people is greedy and will whine about it if they dont get it for free! or did i miss something here?May 24, 2019 21:22:37 GMT -6

roguedragon05: Does anyone know if Bloodstained will be at E3 at all this year?May 24, 2019 21:58:44 GMT -6

Aztec: Thanks @purifyweirdshard for the answers. I’m bummed about no Kojima art. That would’ve made for some excellent PR before the game came out. I wish they could show it off even if they physical prints were shipping later but oh wellMay 24, 2019 23:57:01 GMT -6