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Re: [S-R] Re: Johannes Kostak

I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred

Message 1 of 25
, Aug 6, 2008

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I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific...) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case. Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť. Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.

DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
(zomreli).

I am about 90 percent sure, just from knowing Slovakia, (nuttin scientific.. .) that Kostak was pronounced Koshtak with a paletized t. The apostrophe referred to here is really a handwritten/ now printed makcen softening the consonant, used on tall letters, T gets an apostrophe in the lower case and the "v" in the upper case. Therefore, the apostrophe may be found also like this in records :Ť. Consequently, L never gets the "v" and only an apostrophe in printed literature, regardless of case.

DON'T dwell on spelling. It all depends on whether the particular
spelling convention is Hungarian, Slovak or Latin on a document. All
may have been used to decribe the same person. Slovak convention may
have spelled it as Kost'ak. Note the apostrophe after the t.

I could give you a few more versions of John but it wouldn't be helful.

When searching for genealogical information, knowing the birth village
is paramount because records are organized by village not nationally,
so it is not possible to search on a national basis. It is also
necessary to know the religion. To locate church records for Slovakia,
knowing the village/town name, go to the LDS web site:
www.familysearch. org/Eng/Library/ FHLC/frameset_ fhlc.asp The church
records cover baptisms (krsteni), marriages (sobeseni) and deaths
(zomreli).

bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com

Hello Paul, Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and

Message 3 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

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Hello Paul,

Janet has provided a tremendous amount of help and sorting of facts for
you. I am going to ask you to take a DEEP BREATH, push the chair back and
do a little retrospective analysis now. I don't have time to help you with
your specific search, but I do want to caution you as you proceed.

First, it seems that your primary research sources are the manifests and
the tombstones. I would be very hesitant to be building family trees based
on this information. You need secondary sources. Clearly the church
records on film will help you do that more confidently.

Secondly, of critical importance is to get your hands on any documents your
ancestors themselves may have produced. Otherwise you will be dealing with
conjecture, implication and dreadful assumptions, all of which must be
avoided. The most available and important records will be found in your
immigrant's immigration file. The USCIS has been undergoing significant
changes in administration of these records since 9/11. It appears we can
see light at the end of the tunnel, with a new system for requesting these
records set to go live on August 13th. While it will take months to get
your paper, it is of critical importance in assuring you are looking at the
right records. In these files contains your immigrant's testament to their
birth date, place, immigration date, ship, next of kin and so on. all of
these facts are super-important clues.
A shortcut to get to the USCIS announcement is here: http://tinyurl.com/6gp6gt
Examples of what can be found in a immigration file include the Alien
Registration form http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/ins_foia_petitions.htm#alien.
The USCIS took most of this information offline, I spent some time
reconstructing it on my site but have not completed the effort. http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/imm_names.htm#american_names, so the Alien
Registration form image is missing at the moment.

So get your request in to the USCIS and then go back to your other
research. It will be well worth the wait.

Janet is spot-on about details. Note every single one of them.

An oft-overlooked strategy is to follow the records of friends, other
family from the same village when you hit dead ends. Often you will find
the record, but badly mangled in spelling, unfindable through computer
serarch engines.

Lastly, there is no such thing as "correct right" or "right name". Names
morphed over the centuries, kingdoms, rulers, recordkeepers and manglers,
both intentional and unintentional. Most of our ancestors were illiterate
as late as 100 years ago. My grandmother signed a property deed in 1924
with an "X". How would she know the correct spelling?!!!! Note all names
and keep careful records. NEVER change names in the family tree to what
you believe the "correct" name is. Use the name of record. If you don't,
future researchers will be lost and befuddled with your work, and forced to
discard it and start over.

> Hi Janet:
>
> First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far.
> Also, I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent
> that I would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand
> completely.
>
> You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this
> point, one question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria
> Miscovics, my grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on

the

> same manifest is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?
>
> As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
> Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that
> suspicion.) I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born
> 1878, my grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and
> 1870's. Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is
> that Andres (born 1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other
> possibilities. Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from
> Braddock, PA (he had 8 children. All these years, we didn't think we
> were related to him, but now I suspect they are all kin to this same
> band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who died a few years ago (the
> first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5 years ago). It is my
> belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also a son of one of this
> same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)
>
> Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I
> will take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of
> Kostyaks.
>
> Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the
> one I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this

> grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the
> band/sibs discussed.
>
> Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way
> off? Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of
> August. I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa
> Powell here in Pittsburgh, next week.
>
> Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long
> it takes and how much it costs.
>
> Paul
>
> --- On Wed, 8/6/08, kozlay <kozlay@...> wrote:
>
> From: kozlay <kozlay@...>
> Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:47 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband
> of
> Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to
> her
> husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.
>
> Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.
>
> Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John
> Kostyak's
> wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
> 1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
> 1904.
>
> As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
> The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have

been

> certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
> birth record in Slovakia.
>
> Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.
>
> The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes
> from
> the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
> how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
> This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
> Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
> marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
> glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy

of

> the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will
> help
> you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the

record.

> It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
> from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to
> marry
> other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be

significant

> information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
> learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
> greater interest than just names and dates.
>
> Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
> would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
> (www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can
> spend
> several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to
> it
> time and time again.
>
> Janet
>
> _____
>
> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
> com] On
> Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:27 AM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
> Cc: kaytsok@yahoo. com
> Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
>
> Hello Janet:
>
> Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
> thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able
> to
> grasp things better.
>
> I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
> the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
> day or 2.
>
> I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as
> Casparus
> and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
> came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
> born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.
>
> I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
> 1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
> additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
> comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
> (1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
> different.
>
> Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy
> for
> a flower shop, etc.?
>
> Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
> to you. We'll deal with that later.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
> --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon.
> net>
> net> wrote:
>
> From: kozlay <kozlay@verizon. <mailto:kozlay% 40verizon. net> net>
> Subject: RE: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ <mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS%40yahoogro ups.com> yahoogroups.
> com
> Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 8:34 PM
>
> Paul,
>
> Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
> Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.
>
> Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak.

Lassupatak

> went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
> Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially
> the
> same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
> MapQuest and see how close they are.
>
> Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
> Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the
> village
> of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
> likely need to order the films from both.
>
> Janet
>
> _____
>
> From: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:SLOVAK- ROOTS@ yahoogroups.
> com]
> On
> Behalf Of Paul Kostyak
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [S-R] Johannes Kostak
>
> Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
> doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
> the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
> Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
> but let's start with Kostak.
>
> My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
> siblings which I have good information on.
>
> Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
> tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.
>
> I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
> license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
> believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
> Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
> related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
> his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
> absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
> puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
> from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
> Michael Miscovics)
>
> This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
> Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
> estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
> don't know her maiden name.
>
> For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
> Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
> starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
> Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
> this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
> marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
> is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)
>
> So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
> Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
> Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.
>
> Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.
>
> My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.
>
> Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.
>
> Paul
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

kozlay

Dear Paul, I do not think the entry below Maria s on the 1904 manifest could be her mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be

Message 4 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

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Dear Paul,

I do not think the entry below Maria's on the 1904 manifest could be her
mother. The two were both 19 years old, and the second one appears to be
coming from a different place and having a different destination. Nor do I
think the name looks like Krajniak. To me it looks more like Jarajnak. The
transcriber read it as Tarajnak.

Are you even certain that Maria's mother ever immigrated? There are lots of
Maria Krajniaks in the Ellis Island records, though I don't see any that
might qualify age-wise.

You are probably right that all these Kostyaks are related in some way,
though you won't know for certain until you look at the Slovak records.
Since it is likely you will find numerous people in there with the same
name, it will be important to distinguish carefully between them, working
out various family groupings based on parentage, siblings, spouses, dates of
birth, etc. Keep in mind that only birth and marriage records can be used
to establish the dates of those occurrences. You cannot, for instance,
depend on stated age at marriage to establish a firm date of birth.

I warn you that this is not an easy task. You can only hope that the records
contain all the information you need. For instance, if a marriage record
does not include the names of the bride and groom's parents, it may be
difficult to place that marriage correctly in your family tree. The earlier
you go, the more likely it is that there will be missing information. Also,
you need to be prepared to find some people with more than one spouse. Death
rates were pretty high, even among those who were relatively young, and
remarriages often took place shortly after the death of a spouse. (Someone
had to care for the children or support the family.) I found one instance in
my own research in which a wife died and later that same year the deceased
wife's brother was witness to the remarriage.

I applaud you for your determination to sort all of this out. It can be very
exciting work.

First, let me clear that words cannot express my gratitude thus far. Also,
I realize you cannot continue to focus on my family to the extent that I
would like. So anytime you need to stop, I understand completely.

You are able to read these manifests remarkably. At this point, one
question for you is that on the 1904 manifiest for Maria Miscovics, my
grandmother, do you concur that the entry below Maria on the same manifest
is her mother, my great-grandmother, Maria Krajniak?

As an aside, it is my belief that many, many of the Kostyak's here in the
Pennsylvania are are related. (I have just now come to that suspicion.)
I need to connect the dots from John/Johannes/Janos born 1878, my
grandfather, to the band/sibs of Kostyak's from the 1860's and 1870's.
Based on reasonable analysis of the ages, my best guess is that Andres (born
1858) is his father, but there are a couple of other possibilities.
Also, there is a second Frank Kostyak from Braddock, PA (he had 8 children.
All these years, we didn't think we were related to him, but now I suspect
they are all kin to this same band/sibs, so they are likely cousins) who
died a few years ago (the first Frank/Francis was my dad who also died 5
years ago). It is my belief that Frank from Braddock (born 1888) was also
a son of one of this same band of Kostyaks (Andres/Janos/Pal/Michely/et al)

Finally, I see a Janos born1843 immigrated in 1889 on the Breman that I will
take a wild guess and say he is the dad of this same band/sibs of Kostyaks.

Finally, finally, I see an number of Janos Kostyak's. (born: 1843 (the one
I just identified), 1862, (who I think is his son and one of this same
band/sibs), 1871 (not sure who he is), 1875 (not sure who he is), 1878 (my
grandfather as discussed) and 1886 (probably a child of one of the band/sibs
discussed.

Do you think I may be on the right track with all of this, or am I way off?
Apparently, my family history center is closed the month of August.
I'll be meeting with my newly hired genealogist, Elissa Powell here in
Pittsburgh, next week.

Thanks, Janet. I am determined to get this all right no matter how long it
takes and how much it costs.

The Maria Miskovics who arrived on the Carpathia in 1910 was the husband of
Mihaly (Michael) Miskovics. She was traveling with her five children to her
husband in Uniontown PA. Her mother was Agnes Csaplak in Lassupatak.

Maria Miscovics was single when she immigrated in 1904.

Both the 1920 and 1930 censuses from Pittsburgh indicate that John Kostyak's
wife, Mary, was six years younger than he, making her date of birth about
1885. This corresponds to the age of Maria Miscovics on the manifest in
1904.

As for the date on Maria's tombstone, this sort of error is not uncommon.
The date would have been provided by a family member who may not have been
certain of her date of birth. The only definitive answer is to find her
birth record in Slovakia.

Clearly these two Marias were sisters-in-law.

The occupational information on the members of the Kostyak family comes from
the 1920 and 1930 censuses for Pittsburgh. This is a good illustration of
how important it is to pay attention to all of the information provided.
This is just as true when you begin looking at the church records from
Slovakia. There is often far more information than simply dates of birth,
marriage, death, and parentage, though it may not be obvious from first
glance. When you locate entries for your family, be sure to make a copy of
the entire page as well as close-ups of the individual entry. This will help
you (and others) to glean as much information as possible from the record.
It will be of interest, for instance, to see if John/Janos/Johannes came
from a family of tailors or other craftsmen and whether they tended to marry
other craftsmen, as opposed to farming peasants. This would be significant
information relative to their social standing in the village and help you
learn more about the actual lives they led. In the end, this will be of
greater interest than just names and dates.

Meanwhile, while you are waiting for films to come in, I concur that you
would be well advised to learn all you can from Bill Tarkulich's site
(www.iabsi.com) . There is so much valuable information there, you can spend
several days going through it all and you may find yourself going back to it
time and time again.

Clearly, you have a thorough understanding of all of this. While I
thought I had a good idea of Maria Miskovics record, you seem to be able to
grasp things better.

I am 100% sure that Janos was my grandfather. I plan to take a trip to
the local family history center for more pieces to the puzzle in the next
day or 2.

I find it interesting that John/Janos/Johannes lists his father as Casparus
and mother as Juliana. I guess it's possible that these two people never
came over. I found other Kostyak's on manifests, including another Janos
born in the 1860's. I suspect they are all related to me in some fashion.

I have a different year of birth for Maria Miskovics. Her tombstone reads
1883-1971. I remember her. Her brother was Michael. Does any of this
additional information make you feel that you are still correct on your
comments? I have a manifest from the Carpathia from September 17th,
(1900 or 1910) that I thought was the correct family. Yours appears
different.

Also, how did you find out the great details that Louis was a errend boy for
a flower shop, etc.?

Any thoughts on any of this? Janet, I cannot tell you how indebted I am
to you. We'll deal with that later.

Maria Miscovics immigrated on February 14, 1904, from Szomolnok, also in
Szepes county, to Connellsville PA. Her date of birth was 1885.

Szomolnok is now Smolnik SK and is not far from old Lassupatak. Lassupatak
went under a bewildering variety of names, including Stillbach and
Henclofalva. It is now Henclova or Ticha Voda SK, which are essentially the
same village. You can find Smolnik and Henclova on a modern map such as
MapQuest and see how close they are.

Roman Catholic church records are available for both places.
Lassupatak/Henclofa lva/Ticha Voda (etc.) records are found with the village
of Nalepkovo. You might find Maria's family in either place, so you would
likely need to order the films from both.

Hello everyone: My name is Paul Kostyak from Pittsburgh, PA. I am
doing a family tree and I have spend countless hours trying to piece
the puzzle together. Can you please help me? After I piece the
Kostak puzzle together, I have two other important Hungarian puzzles,
but let's start with Kostak.

My father was Frank. Born 1923 and died 2003. He had several
siblings which I have good information on.

Their father was John Kostyak, with no further information. His
tombstone reads 1878-1944. This is correct.

I found a small receipt of unknown origin (1909 from his marriage
license?) which lists his name as Johannes Kostak. No "Y". I
believe this to be his true, original name. There are other
Kostyak's from the same Szepes region, but I don't think they are
related. I think I need to focus on Kostak. I am confident that
his name was originally Johannes Kostak, because the spouse listed is
absolutely correct. (his spouse, my grandmother, will be the next
puzzle I tackle another day. Just fyi, her name was Maria Miscovics
from Lassupatak, and her mother was Maria Krajniak and her father was
Michael Miscovics)

This same obscure receipt lists his father as Casparus Kostak from
Sandok Szepes. His mother was listed as Juliana Kostak. I
estimate their births to be around 1850, give or take a decade. I
don't know her maiden name.

For the purpose of clarity, I will refer to Johannes Kostak as John
Kostyak from this point forward. In everything John did in his life
starting around 1910, he was referred to as John Kostyak, not
Johannes Kostak. John's residence was listed as Mt. Lebanon, PA on
this obscure receipt. Other minor clues: on his application for
marriage, his name appears as John Kostak from Dorman, PA. (There
is a small borough called Dormont, PA next to Mt. Lebanon)

So, I am looking for any information about Johannes Kostak from
Sandok, born in 1878. Also, any information about John's father,
Casparus, and John's mother, Juliana.

Also, fyi, John was a tailor for Boggs and Buhl in Pittsburgh.

My cell phone is 412-445-8780 if anyone needs further clarification.

Thank you in advance for any insights you can give me.

Paul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ben Sorensen

Hello all, In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the place of birth or

Message 5 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Hello all,

In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present don't know which city or village the person was from. Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)" and then are good
at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.

Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
Ben

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bill.tarkulich@iabsi.com

Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the FHL. He is also taking the easy way out. I ve already made my opinion known about

Message 6 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
FHL.
He is also taking the easy way out.
I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
but never as authority.

With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
detailed data until 1904.
Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
arrival notwithstanding.)

with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
war, etcetera.)

>
>
> Hello all,
>
> In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
> finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
> "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this

country

> there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is

LDS)

> says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
> can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally

am

> hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
> Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
> geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working

though...

> when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
> Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
> exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
> allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
> and then are good
> at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
> villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
>
> Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
FHL.
He is also taking the easy way out.
I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
but never as authority.

I have written extensively about birth sources.
http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
detailed data until 1904.
Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
arrival notwithstanding. )

with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
war, etcetera.)

Bill Tarkulich

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
> finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
> "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
country
> there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
LDS)
> says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
> can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
am
> hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
> Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
> geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
though...
> when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
> Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
> exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
> allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
> and then are good
> at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
> villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
>
> Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ben Sorensen

I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way. My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry. Ben ... From:

Message 8 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

I am so sorry that there is a blank post on its way. My hand malfunctioned and clicked the send button on its own. I am very sorry.
Ben

Your prof is trying to limit you to the sources at his hand. that is, the
FHL.
He is also taking the easy way out.
I've already made my opinion known about IGI. I would treat it as a clue,
but never as authority.

I have written extensively about birth sources.
http://www.iabsi. com/gen/public/ ancestral_ village.htm

With regard to immigration records, the US did not legislate collection of
detailed data until 1904.
Look at any manifest before or after 1904 to see the difference. Before
1904, America accepted most people with open arms (discrimination after
arrival notwithstanding. )

with regard to death records - dreadfully inaccurate. It may be working
for your specific lineage, but I would not bet one crown upon it. Death
information in the USA is never verified or validated on death
certificates, except in extenuating circumstances (murder, imprisonment,
war, etcetera.)

Bill Tarkulich

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting in
> finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of birth" or
> "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously, in this
country
> there wasn't much importance given to exact locations. My prof (who is
LDS)
> says that "one can use the IGI to find localities of origination, and it
> can save you alot of tedius research in American sources." I personally
am
> hesitant about the IGI- what sources have given you the best luck?
> Personally, I am finding Death Records to be good- though one has to know
> geography for it to be of assistance. I can see this not working
though...
> when those present don't know which city or village the person was from.
> Petitions for citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an
> exact location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
> allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the like)"
> and then are good
> at determining who was King and which province, but no cities, towns, or
> villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat demanding.
>
> Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ssultonia

Ben, I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He listed the village

Message 9 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Ben,
I had the opposite experience with Petitions for Citizenship. That
was the first place that gave me a clue where my GF was born. He
listed the village where he was born as "Almas" and through some kind
folks on this forum I learned that it was now Jablonov. That was the
breakthrough I needed and from there the LDS films helped fill in most
of the blanks. He also listed his last place of residence before
leaving as "Lucksa", which is right around the corner from Jablonov.
So, I guess it shows how much the records vary and that what works for
one may not for another depending on the time and location when the
documents were originated.
Cheers,
Bill

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> In my studies, I am finding that American sources are very wanting
in finding original locations, and very often I find the "place of
birth" or "from" box reading "Germany" or another country- obviously,
in this country there wasn't much importance given to exact locations.
My prof (who is LDS) says that "one can use the IGI to find localities
of origination, and it can save you alot of tedius research in
American sources." I personally am hesitant about the IGI- what
sources have given you the best luck? Personally, I am finding Death
Records to be good- though one has to know geography for it to be of
assistance. I can see this not working though... when those present
don't know which city or village the person was from. Petitions for
citizenship are about worthless when trying to determine an exact
location, I find, as they have the "renunciation FOREVER all
allegiances adn fidelity to any Foreign Power (or something of the
like)" and then are good
> at determining who was King and which province, but no cities,
towns, or villages- so finding vitals in the old country is somewhat
demanding.
>
> Which sources, then, have been the best for you?
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

kozlay

There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the place of

Message 10 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
not contain this information. Seehttp://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.

Janet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PAULA BYRD

Janet, do you have an email address that works, this one says not found Paula ... From: kozlay To:

Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from kozlay@comcast.net to kozlay@verizon.net. I don t know why you have had problems since I believe I

Message 12 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address fromkozlay@... to kozlay@.... I don't know why you have had
problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
also try me at kozlay@....

Janet, Oops. You re right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break. Regards. Bill ...

Message 13 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Janet,
Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
Regards.
Bill

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
>
> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
is the
> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
usually does
> not contain this information. See
> http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.
>
>
>
> Janet
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

PAULA BYRD

Janet, I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the

Message 14 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

Janet,

I was meaning the adrdess for the first papers.When you click on the www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html> and the other one you have listed , it brings up a site that says not found.

Paula, I am in the midst of changing my email address from
kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...> to kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>. I don't know why you have had
problems since I believe I am receiving emails at the new address. You can
also try me at kozlay@...<mailto:kozlay@...>.

There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It is the
Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and usually does
not contain this information. See
http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/> <http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
ybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealog<http://www.genealog/>
<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.<http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html.>>
ybranches.com/naturalization.html.>

I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that

Message 16 of 25
, Aug 7, 2008

0 Attachment

I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place of origin... :-)

Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already warned, many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before 1900.

EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and this group...
Ben

Janet,
Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
Regards.
Bill

--- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
>
> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
is the
> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
usually does
> not contain this information. See
> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
>
>
>
> Janet
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kozlay

Here, let s try it one more time: http://www.genealogybranches.com/naturalization.html Janet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on a second

Message 18 of 25
, Aug 8, 2008

0 Attachment

I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
being a broken record.

so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
credible.

Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

> I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
> practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
> states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
> of origin... :-)
>
> Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals," I am
> very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already

warned,

> many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
> 1900.
>
> EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
> has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
> definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
> this group...
> Ben
>
> --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@...> wrote:
>
> From: ssultonia <wasmore@...>
> Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Janet,
> Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
> confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
> Regards.
> Bill
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
>>
>> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
> is the
>> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
>> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
> usually does
>> not contain this information. See
>> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
>>
>>
>>
>> Janet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Margo Smith

Ben -- poverty of American records before 1900 ? In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records. Once a US location

Message 19 of 25
, Aug 8, 2008

0 Attachment

Ben -- "poverty of American records before 1900"? In my experience, there are many more American records available than SK records. Once a US location became a county, there are often a lot of records. Of course, there are too many "burned courthouse" cases.

I never hang my hat on a single data point. Unless there is overwhelming
circumstantial evidence that points to the data being correct, I insist on
a second independent authoritative source to corroborate it. yea, I'm
being a broken record.

so if what you are doing is "theory", THE most important thing you can do
is to cite and record sources for all data. That way, when you go back,
people can develop their own opinions about whether the data element is
credible.

Regarding "Prussia". Don't be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath
water. One inaccurate data element is not necessarily grounds to discount
the whole document. It is never clear to me who the source of the
information was for all or part of this information. Self? Clerk?
Offspring? Friend? In some cases, it was simply confusion on the part of
the immigrant. In most cases these folk were ignorant (not stupid),
illiterate rural folks from small obscure region.

Regards,
Bill

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT), Ben Sorensen <cerrunos1@yahoo. com>
wrote:
> I see what you all mean, and I am thankful for the opinions. I am doing a
> practice tree, and one of the Declarations of Intention from Wisconsin
> states that one of my subjects was born in "Prussia." Not exactly a place
> of origin... :-)
>
> Because most of what I am doing is theory with preset "practicals, " I am
> very thankful for your "real-world" experience! I have been already
warned,
> many times in class and out, of the poverty of American records before
> 1900.
>
> EVEN IN SPITE of some of the ideas about FHL and IGI in this course, it
> has taught me how to get the most out of primary sources, and I would
> definitely recommend it to anyone. I am thoroughly enjoying this, and
> this group...
> Ben
>
> --- On Fri, 8/8/08, ssultonia <wasmore@att. net> wrote:
>
> From: ssultonia <wasmore@att. net>
> Subject: Re: [S-R] primary American sources
> To: SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 2:37 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Janet,
> Oops. You're right. I quoted the wrong document. Sorry for the
> confusion Ben. The Declaration of Intent is where I got my big break.
> Regards.
> Bill
>
> --- In SLOVAK-ROOTS@ yahoogroups. com, "kozlay" <kozlay@...> wrote:
>>
>> There is often confusion over different naturalization records. It
> is the
>> Declaration of Intent (First Papers) that is most likely to contain the
>> place of birth. The Petition for Naturalization comes later and
> usually does
>> not contain this information. See
>> http://www.genealog ybranches. com/naturalizati on.html.
>>
>>
>>
>> Janet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/SLOVAK- ROOTS/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, go to
> http://www.yahoogro ups.com/group/ SLOVAK-ROOTS -or- send blank email to
> SLOVAK-ROOTS- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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