Yeah, from the get-go the 7th spot was going to Miller or one of the retreads. Miller was the only "prospect" to be considered for the spot. I mentioned in one of the threads a few weeks back that Meloan and Sipp were not candidates for the 7th bully spot as the Indians wanted to send them to Columbus to finish themselves off and be used maybe later in the year.

Gonna be Jackson or Mujica it looks like for the 7th spot, or one of the NRI vets like Chulk.

And for the #5 starter, Laffey is still the prohibitive favorite though Sowers has a slim chance.

TitoFrancona wrote:It's my personal preference that Jackson get's that last spot. Jackson would provide a lot of flexibility if he were the one kept. He could be used in long relief, spot starting and of course - loogy.

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, from the get-go the 7th spot was going to Miller or one of the retreads. Miller was the only "prospect" to be considered for the spot. I mentioned in one of the threads a few weeks back that Meloan and Sipp were not candidates for the 7th bully spot as the Indians wanted to send them to Columbus to finish themselves off and be used maybe later in the year.

Gonna be Jackson or Mujica it looks like for the 7th spot, or one of the NRI vets like Chulk.

And for the #5 starter, Laffey is still the prohibitive favorite though Sowers has a slim chance.

IronMike wrote:All this hype about David Huff and they send him out? Why not pitch him in the big league camp to the end of the month against major league talent? They shut him down and he didn't pitch in September.

Guess they need to finish him off "again" in Columbus???

Same old horse s*it.

Another Eric Wedge production.

Hell if the guys got it, like they say he does, pitch him. Challenge him. Ozzie Guillen would.One of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Cleveland Indians system.

Can't believe Huff could not do better than Laffey and Sowers.

Consigliere you are going to have a real difficult time explaining this one to me.

Completely agree, we already know what Laffey and Sowers can do, and that is be adequate at best, serviceable, inconsistent, or downright awful, you get the picture, but I hope Huff will get a shot once someone flames out or gets hurt, which I predict will be in or before May.

Calm down Mike.....Huff will be here at some point this season and get significant time with the club.

I actually agree with him opening the season in Columbus.....if for no other reason than by bringing him up say at the end of April rather than the start of April, we get a whole extra year of control on him (7 years vs. 6 years).

Consigliere wrote:Calm down Mike.....Huff will be here at some point this season and get significant time with the club.

I actually agree with him opening the season in Columbus.....if for no other reason than by bringing him up say at the end of April rather than the start of April, we get a whole extra year of control on him (7 years vs. 6 years).

How does that rule work exactly, is it x amount of games after opening day or what? With the getting another year.

Consigliere wrote:Calm down Mike.....Huff will be here at some point this season and get significant time with the club.

I actually agree with him opening the season in Columbus.....if for no other reason than by bringing him up say at the end of April rather than the start of April, we get a whole extra year of control on him (7 years vs. 6 years).

How does that rule work exactly, is it x amount of games after opening day or what? With the getting another year.

172 days on the active roster is considered one year of service time. Since the MLB season is about 185 days long, if you start a rookie in the minors the first two weeks of the season he will finish with under 172 days and thus will need to play an additional 6 seasons to become eligible for FA.

Tampa did this with Longoria last year (and eventually signed him long term).

I'm calm ... my point is ... the games we play in April and May are justas important as those played in August and September.

Why not start the season with the BEST 25 players? Think about Carmona andBen F in the past couple of seasons. There are many more examples beyond thesetwo in prior years.

Recently heard Ozzie Guillen say he's taking the best 25 players North, andKen Williams is in agreement. Guillen mentioned he didn't care if a player wasin Class A if they were good enough to contribute he would play them.He stated he won a World Series with a rookie closer (Jenks).

Guillen went on and said its all about talent and ability and being able to RECOGNIZE it. I agree with him. It may or may not be risky. It takesa good baseball man to make those decisions.

In Cleveland, it is all about controlling the player at the expense of usingscrap pile starters and relief pitchers. Sending out Meloan, Sipp, and Huffprior to the end of spring training is all about "controlling" the player. Allthree of these players are highly rated and need to be challenged not coddled.

With the White Sox example the conclusion is ... there is more than one way to climb a mountain.

Truth is Betancourt, Masa can't be counted on ... so there are holes in our bullpen.Fill them now, bring the guys North and pitch them.

Sooner or later REALITY must take over the situation ... and it finally did!

IronMike wrote:In Cleveland, it is all about controlling the player at the expense of usingscrap pile starters and relief pitchers. Sending out Meloan, Sipp, and Huffprior to the end of spring training is all about "controlling" the player. Allthree of these players are highly rated and need to be challenged not coddled.

Meloan has been awful, Sipp is, in my mind, still recovering from surgery, and Huff wasn't as good as Laffey or Sowers. Those players were challenged and came up short.

I hope they rip the jobs away and perform better. I want them to PERFORM better, though, not get the jobs because they MIGHT.

IronMike wrote:In Cleveland, it is all about controlling the player at the expense of usingscrap pile starters and relief pitchers. Sending out Meloan, Sipp, and Huffprior to the end of spring training is all about "controlling" the player. Allthree of these players are highly rated and need to be challenged not coddled.

Meloan has been awful, Sipp is, in my mind, still recovering from surgery, and Huff wasn't as good as Laffey or Sowers. Those players were challenged and came up short.

I hope they rip the jobs away and perform better. I want them to PERFORM better, though, not get the jobs because they MIGHT.

(And, for the record, I am a huge Meloan honk.)

To add, these guys need work. There are three weeks left in camp and with starters going longer, there are less innings available. I would agree if we were sending out Huff in order to keep the likes of Jason Johnson or Scott Elarton in the rotation, but Laffey and Sowers are both good options and have proven they are at this point more ready while Huff may need a little more seasoning and there is no need to rush him with Laffey, Sowers and Lewis ready.

As for Sipp and Meloan, these guys need to pitch and not be relegated to the 7th bully spot where they hardly get any work. I'd rather they pitch meaningul innings in Columbus than pitch mop up duty as the 7th guy in Cleveland getting in once a week at most. And really, the 7 bullpen guys that open the season are not gonna be the 7 guys we roll with all year. Those last two spots to me will be in flux all year. I'm fine with a mop up guy or long reliever in the 7th spot like Jackson or one of the NRI guys.

Plus, Sipp still needs more work since he missed a lot of time this offseason because of being shutdown with shoulder discomfort and Meloan is still being polished off. I am fine with this approach provided there are suitable alternatives. But when there are no alternatives, then yeah, I'm 100% with you.

Tony, all this categorizing of what spot, role and all that garbage. Those are purely Wedgisms.

We have holes in this bullpen deeper than the 7th spot. Both Bentancourt andMasa are very questionable. John Hart mentioned the other evening on MLB Network Bentcourt's stuff has DECLINED.

Lewis, Huff, Sowers and Laffey were advertised to compete for the 5th spot.

Let them compete equally for the entire camp..

Players do get better with the type of competition they face. Challenge them. Let's see who rises to the occasion on the field not in print.

What you are telling me about Sipp and Meloan you are just repeating what comes out as press releases from the organization. It is a philosophy and nothing to do with talent.

Truthfully, right now, today, both Meloan and Sipp are better pitchers than the two mentioned above and they just need a regular chance and, most importantly, someone to demonstrate confidence in them.

And, another the big question on our team is Carl Pavano at the expense of Scott Lewis or Huff.

Those are real issues on an already weak pitching staff. If we are going to improve the improvement must come from home grown talent.

Last edited by IronMike on Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sooner or later REALITY must take over the situation ... and it finally did!

Meloan has been awful, Sipp is, in my mind, still recovering from surgery, and Huff wasn't as good as Laffey or Sowers. Those players were challenged and came up short.

I hope they rip the jobs away and perform better. I want them to PERFORM better, though, not get the jobs because they MIGHT.

(And, for the record, I am a huge Meloan honk.)

To add, these guys need work. There are three weeks left in camp and with starters going longer, there are less innings available. I would agree if we were sending out Huff in order to keep the likes of Jason Johnson or Scott Elarton in the rotation, but Laffey and Sowers are both good options and have proven they are at this point more ready while Huff may need a little more seasoning and there is no need to rush him with Laffey, Sowers and Lewis ready.

Finally, someone has mentioned Lewis. Of him, Laffey, and Sowers , Lewis was the only one last year to perform reasonably well. He may not have the ceiling of Laffey, but he seems to get the most out of his ability.

I probably wouldn't select him over Laffey if he continues to pitch well the last couple weeks of ST, but imo Lewis is a better option than Sowers simply because of their respective track records.

Lots of things to touch on here, so I will go through it line by line.

IronMike wrote:Tony, all this categorizing of what spot, role and all that garbage. Those are purely Wedgisms.

We have holes in this bullpen deeper than the 7th spot. Both Bentancourt andMasa are very questionable. John Hart mentioned the other evening on MLB Network Bentcourt's stuff has DECLINED.

So let me ask this question, you think it is okay then to stick a high level prospect in a meaningless role and just let him rot and not get used versus going down and pitching on a regular routine in Triple-A and getting called up when they will in fact be used?

I agree that Meloan and Sipp have more potential and probably talent than the other guys for the 7th spot, but that is not always what you neceassarily want for those bench roles and last bully option. It is not always about taking the best talent, but the best guys who fit the team (there is a Wedgism there for ya).

Lewis, Huff, Sowers and Laffey were advertised to compete for the 5th spot.

Let them compete equally for the entire camp..

Players do get better with the type of competition they face. Challenge them. Let's see who rises to the occasion on the field not in print.

They did compete. Huff was behind the other three through the first 5 weeks of camp. There are two weeks left in camp....what would change?

Also, most importantly, guys are out to 75-85 pitches now, which is about 5-6 innings an appearance. They are getting the staff on their 5-day routine. Which means you can't have four starters battling it out for one spot in camp. You have Lee, Carmona, Reyes, and Pavano all starting to work every 5th day and going 5-6 innings a start....as it is it will be tough to mix in the three of Lewis, Sowers and Laffey. You just can't have this be a four man battle down to the end. As it is some guys yesterday like Carmona, Perez and others had to pitch in minor league games to get work. I'd expect Lewis to be optioned out here real soon too.

Also, I'm as big a honk for Huff as there is. But his command has been off all spring. He just needs a chance to settle down and I think it will benefit him more to go back to minor league camp and open in Columbus....and then be an option at some point this season. Again, if it was Huff going against Jason Johnson, Scott Elarton, Jason Bere or whatever other stiff they brought in, I'd be outraged at the move. But Lewis, Sowers, and Laffey are quality pitchers and have upside and ability (Sowers not as much) and they are ALL on the 40-man roster to boot. Huff got a chance to show himself to the big league staff, which was the most important thing......he'll be here soon as long as he stays healthy and keeps going how he is going.

What you are telling me about Sipp and Meloan you are just repeating what comes out as press releases from the organization. It is a philosophy and nothing to do with talent.

Truthfully, right now, today, both Meloan and Sipp are better pitchers than the two mentioned above and they just need a regular chance and, most importantly, someone to demonstrate confidence in them.

The press rleases make no mention of Sipp's shoulder discomfort. This is something that I know firsthand, and was something they were concerned enough about that they completely shut him down this past fall/winter. And, why they will be careful with him this spring. He was slotted for Columbus from the get go, heck even Tom Hamilton said so on the air in the first game he pitched in.

Now Meloan I do see an issue with....but again, this goes back to his role. No way do I want a guy with his talent stuck in the 7th bully spot. If they were inclined to use him in a more regular role I would be all for it. The problem is, they have 6 spots locked up....and while I am not a big Masa fan it appears they will see what he does and if he fails they will go with plan B (Meloan).

And, another the big question on our team is Carl Pavano at the expense of Scott Lewis or Huff.

Those are real issues on an already weak pitching staff. If we are going to improve the improvement must come from home grown talent.

Now, I agree for the most part on Pavano....I even wrote about it two months ago:

Consigliere wrote:Calm down Mike.....Huff will be here at some point this season and get significant time with the club.

I actually agree with him opening the season in Columbus.....if for no other reason than by bringing him up say at the end of April rather than the start of April, we get a whole extra year of control on him (7 years vs. 6 years).

How does that rule work exactly, is it x amount of games after opening day or what? With the getting another year.

172 days on the active roster is considered one year of service time. Since the MLB season is about 185 days long, if you start a rookie in the minors the first two weeks of the season he will finish with under 172 days and thus will need to play an additional 6 seasons to become eligible for FA.

Tampa did this with Longoria last year (and eventually signed him long term).

Thanks, that was a great move by Tampa, I remember when they did that, I still like them in the East this year, maybe not to win it, but I think they will be right there, and I am envious of their pitching at the major league and minor league levels.

All the conversation about the 7th spot in the bullpen is really dazzling, but I don't hear a lot of chatter about the spring that Matt LaPorta is having. There were several folks around here that were fairly convinced that his slow start in the organization simply was a harbinger for him sucking the rest of his career. He seems to be having a decent camp this year, which gives me confidence that he'll be a contributor at some point later this year. Next year for sure.

IronMike wrote:All this hype about David Huff and they send him out? Why not pitch him in the big league camp to the end of the month against major league talent? They shut him down and he didn't pitch in September.

Guess they need to finish him off "again" in Columbus???

Same old horse s*it.

Another Eric Wedge production.

Hell if the guys got it, like they say he does, pitch him. Challenge him. Ozzie Guillen would.One of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Cleveland Indians system.

Can't believe Huff could not do better than Laffey and Sowers.

Consigliere you are going to have a real difficult time explaining this one to me.

Because the goal isn't (and shouldn't be) to shoot off Huff's bullets as quickly as possible. Lets look at what Ozzie Guillen would do with a young starting pitcher. John Danks went from 140 minor league innings to 140 major league innings - he was shut down for a month to end the year because he was tired. Gavin Floyd went from 115 minor league innings and 54 major league innings with Philly before going to the Sox. When with the Sox he got 106 minor league innings and 70 major league innings. So it seems like the Indians are going to challenge Huff pretty similar to the way that Danks and Floyd got challenged, except that the Indians are going to try to prevent Huff from tiring out down the stretch and (hopefully) for the playoffs. I can't believe you'd suggest that one of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Indians system. They've done a pretty good job, I'd say near the top of MLB, in turning minor league talent into major league talent. Huff could probably do better than Laffey or Sowers, but that's much more likely to show down the road rather than immediately and that's a very important thing to consider in his situation.

IronMike wrote:All this hype about David Huff and they send him out? Why not pitch him in the big league camp to the end of the month against major league talent? They shut him down and he didn't pitch in September.

Guess they need to finish him off "again" in Columbus???

Same old horse s*it.

Another Eric Wedge production.

Hell if the guys got it, like they say he does, pitch him. Challenge him. Ozzie Guillen would.One of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Cleveland Indians system.

Can't believe Huff could not do better than Laffey and Sowers.

Consigliere you are going to have a real difficult time explaining this one to me.

Because the goal isn't (and shouldn't be) to shoot off Huff's bullets as quickly as possible. Lets look at what Ozzie Guillen would do with a young starting pitcher. John Danks went from 140 minor league innings to 140 major league innings - he was shut down for a month to end the year because he was tired. Gavin Floyd went from 115 minor league innings and 54 major league innings with Philly before going to the Sox. When with the Sox he got 106 minor league innings and 70 major league innings. So it seems like the Indians are going to challenge Huff pretty similar to the way that Danks and Floyd got challenged, except that the Indians are going to try to prevent Huff from tiring out down the stretch and (hopefully) for the playoffs. I can't believe you'd suggest that one of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Indians system. They've done a pretty good job, I'd say near the top of MLB, in turning minor league talent into major league talent. Huff could probably do better than Laffey or Sowers, but that's much more likely to show down the road rather than immediately and that's a very important thing to consider in his situation.

+1, and welcome!

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

IronMike wrote:All this hype about David Huff and they send him out? Why not pitch him in the big league camp to the end of the month against major league talent? They shut him down and he didn't pitch in September.

Guess they need to finish him off "again" in Columbus???

Same old horse s*it.

Another Eric Wedge production.

Hell if the guys got it, like they say he does, pitch him. Challenge him. Ozzie Guillen would.One of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Cleveland Indians system.

Can't believe Huff could not do better than Laffey and Sowers.

Consigliere you are going to have a real difficult time explaining this one to me.

Because the goal isn't (and shouldn't be) to shoot off Huff's bullets as quickly as possible. Lets look at what Ozzie Guillen would do with a young starting pitcher. John Danks went from 140 minor league innings to 140 major league innings - he was shut down for a month to end the year because he was tired. Gavin Floyd went from 115 minor league innings and 54 major league innings with Philly before going to the Sox. When with the Sox he got 106 minor league innings and 70 major league innings. So it seems like the Indians are going to challenge Huff pretty similar to the way that Danks and Floyd got challenged, except that the Indians are going to try to prevent Huff from tiring out down the stretch and (hopefully) for the playoffs. I can't believe you'd suggest that one of the worst places to be for a young player is in the Indians system. They've done a pretty good job, I'd say near the top of MLB, in turning minor league talent into major league talent. Huff could probably do better than Laffey or Sowers, but that's much more likely to show down the road rather than immediately and that's a very important thing to consider in his situation.

Let's all hope he does bounce back although I do not believe all his woes arephysical and more about his pitch selection. Throwing fastballs 95% of the time to thesame location (outside corner) tends to let ML hitters adjust.

Betancourt needs to have the confidence and ability to throw other pitches for strikesto both sides of the plate. It is the primary reason he failed in the closers role.Betancourt could be consider a thrower rather than a pitcher.

Why the coaching staff continues to let him pitch this way is a mystery. The manager orpitching coach could call pitches from the dugout to help him out. Why they don't is another mystery because that is one of the finer points of managing.

Sooner or later REALITY must take over the situation ... and it finally did!

IronMike wrote:Why the coaching staff continues to let him pitch this way is a mystery. The manager orpitching coach could call pitches from the dugout to help him out. Why they don't is another mystery because that is one of the finer points of managing.

You must have missed Wedge calling Betancourt out in the press on numerous occasions last year for not throwing inside.

When a player like Betancourt doesn't listen to coaching he should get a seat at the end of the bench. That way, he doesn't hurt the team. Each game is a value in itself andthere is no room for stubborness. If a pitcher can't follow the game plan for getting hitters out why send him out there? ML hitters look fastball first and adjust on the breaking and off-speed pitches. With Betancourt there is no adjusting.

Quite honestly, if guys are not going to listen, yank them before the damage is done.

Give me a manager like Bobby Cox or Billy Martin who isn't afraid of showing up a playerby yanking him during a game ... example Andruw Jones and Reggie Jackson.Long term these moves are good for the player, team and the manager demonstratescontrol.

One thing separates Cox and Martin from Wedge they have won Championship. So what they do and how they managed is difficult to argue. ML baseball is about winning Championships, nothing else matters.

For example, we've seen Peralta play with his head up his rear end and still trot out to SS every inning. By the way for all you Peralta fans here is how to measure a baseball player. Watch the difference this year and compare DeRosa and Peralta and there overall game and intangibles DeRosa brings. DeRosa was the best acquisition the Indians have made in many a year. Shapiro is finally wising up when he selected DeRosa and Michael Brantley. Players who bring intangibles and then let them shine during the game. Turn them loose, be proactive.

Here a few examples of intangibles:

1) In a close game against a good team late in the game with a runner on second with nobody out can the hitter hit the ball to the right side of the infield to move the runner.

2) On a base hit to right center can the runner go from first to third and force the action.

3) With two strikes can hitter choke up and put the ball in play?

Only with Wedge do we hear K's are okay. One of the dumbest statements I've ever heard from a ML manager.

Johnny Peralta struck out more times in 3 years than Al Rosen did in 9 years.

Another recent example of a coach not laying the law down ... Romeo Crennel didn't have the balls to bench Edwards and that really destroyed the Browns and Crennel lost his job.

Not to change the point of this thread but this is a huge year for Wedge and quite frankly if the Indians miss the playoffs, hopefully they will make a change.

Sooner or later REALITY must take over the situation ... and it finally did!

When a player like Betancourt doesn't listen to coaching he should get a seat at the end of the bench. That way, he doesn't hurt the team. Each game is a value in itself andthere is no room for stubborness. If a pitcher can't follow the game plan for getting hitters out why send him out there? ML hitters look fastball first and adjust on the breaking and off-speed pitches. With Betancourt there is no adjusting.

Quite honestly, if guys are not going to listen, yank them before the damage is done.

Give me a manager like Bobby Cox or Billy Martin who isn't afraid of showing up a playerby yanking him during a game ... example Andruw Jones and Reggie Jackson.Long term these moves are good for the player, team and the manager demonstratescontrol.

One thing separates Cox and Martin from Wedge they have won Championship. So what they do and how they managed is difficult to argue. ML baseball is about winning Championships, nothing else matters.

For example, we've seen Peralta play with his head up his rear end and still trot out to SS every inning. By the way for all you Peralta fans here is how to measure a baseball player. Watch the difference this year and compare DeRosa and Peralta and there overall game and intangibles DeRosa brings. DeRosa was the best acquisition the Indians have made in many a year. Shapiro is finally wising up when he selected DeRosa and Michael Brantley. Players who bring intangibles and then let them shine during the game. Turn them loose, be proactive.

Here a few examples of intangibles:

1) In a close game against a good team late in the game with a runner on second with nobody out can the hitter hit the ball to the right side of the infield to move the runner.

2) On a base hit to right center can the runner go from first to third and force the action.

3) With two strikes can hitter choke up and put the ball in play?

Only with Wedge do we hear K's are okay. One of the dumbest statements I've ever heard from a ML manager.

Johnny Peralta struck out more times in 3 years than Al Rosen did in 9 years.

Another recent example of a coach not laying the law down ... Romeo Crennel didn't have the balls to bench Edwards and that really destroyed the Browns and Crennel lost his job.

Not to change the point of this thread but this is a huge year for Wedge and quite frankly if the Indians miss the playoffs, hopefully they will make a change.

Wow, I am not sure where to start with all of this. I preface this by saying that I think Eric Wedge is an AVERAGE major league manager..not the best and not the worst. Last year at this time, I would have said he was in the bottom third, but the way the Indians did not quit last year gave me a little more respect for him.

You use two managers of examples as to how things should be done...Cox and Martin. Martin, with the Yankees, had clearly the most talented teams imaginable. How many championships did Martin win with the Twins, Tigers, and A's? In case you don't recall, the answer is 0 and Martin was singularly responsible for destroying the arms of a number of young, talented starters on the A's team he managed. Please do not use Martin as an example of anything!

Cox...clearly a HOF manager, and a very good one. But...how many World Series titles has he won in about 25 years of managing? Right...one. Believe me, many Atlanta fans think it is time for him to go. Before we compare the number of titles that Wedge has won to Cox, give Wedge a few more years, if you will.

Oh....recall last year when Wedge pulled Garko out of a game for not running a ground ball out? So, in fact Wedge did show the sort of control you admire, right?

With Peralta, yes on occasion he does lose focus, but you do realize he is one of the finest shortstops in baseball, right? Me..I don't want Wedge tinkering with him at all! Those intangibles are all on the hitter...Wedge has nothing to do with it. Wedge's job is to maximize the Indians' chances of winning a game, but as the saying goes, he doesn't hit or pitch.

Comparing Peralta to the Indians best 3B of all time is sort of silly, don't you think? I mean, Grady Sizemore strikes out more than Joe Dimaggio did. What is your point? That Dimaggio was better than Grady is now? I agree.

And finally...what does Wedge have to do with Crennel, other than the fact that they both coached Cleveland teams? And I disagree with you on why Crennel was fired..he was fired because the team lost too many games and looked awful in doing so.

1) In a close game against a good team late in the game with a runner on second with nobody out can the hitter hit the ball to the right side of the infield to move the runner.

2) On a base hit to right center can the runner go from first to third and force the action.

3) With two strikes can hitter choke up and put the ball in play?

But those are tangible things. How can they also be intangible?

And do you want Garko, Shoppach, Hafner, Victor, or our oher slow players thrown out at third o force the action? That's why the Angels lost in the playoffs to the Red Sox. Vladimir Guerrero was too slow o do that.

And if you would rather the Indians pop out or ground out weakly more than strikeout, that's your prerogative. But Wedge was concerned wih getting big hits, and not the manner of getting out. That's at least a reasonable position.

As for choking up with 2 strikes, Sizemore for instance had 14 Hs wih two stikes last year. Do you want to give them all back so he strikes out less?

Let's all hope he does bounce back although I do not believe all his woes arephysical and more about his pitch selection. Throwing fastballs 95% of the time to thesame location (outside corner) tends to let ML hitters adjust.

Betancourt needs to have the confidence and ability to throw other pitches for strikesto both sides of the plate. It is the primary reason he failed in the closers role.Betancourt could be consider a thrower rather than a pitcher.

Why the coaching staff continues to let him pitch this way is a mystery. The manager orpitching coach could call pitches from the dugout to help him out. Why they don't is another mystery because that is one of the finer points of managing.

Did you actually watch any Indians games last year? Vic and Shoppach look into the dugout before every pitch. Many pitches are called from the dugout, and Wedge addressed Betancourt's location several times publicly, and probably many more in private. Why you continue to flaunt your lack of knowledge of the game of baseball in general and the Indians in particular is a mystery.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

When a player like Betancourt doesn't listen to coaching he should get a seat at the end of the bench. That way, he doesn't hurt the team. Each game is a value in itself andthere is no room for stubborness. If a pitcher can't follow the game plan for getting hitters out why send him out there? ML hitters look fastball first and adjust on the breaking and off-speed pitches. With Betancourt there is no adjusting.

Quite honestly, if guys are not going to listen, yank them before the damage is done.

Give me a manager like Bobby Cox or Billy Martin who isn't afraid of showing up a playerby yanking him during a game ... example Andruw Jones and Reggie Jackson.Long term these moves are good for the player, team and the manager demonstratescontrol.

One thing separates Cox and Martin from Wedge they have won Championship. So what they do and how they managed is difficult to argue. ML baseball is about winning Championships, nothing else matters.

For example, we've seen Peralta play with his head up his rear end and still trot out to SS every inning. By the way for all you Peralta fans here is how to measure a baseball player. Watch the difference this year and compare DeRosa and Peralta and there overall game and intangibles DeRosa brings. DeRosa was the best acquisition the Indians have made in many a year. Shapiro is finally wising up when he selected DeRosa and Michael Brantley. Players who bring intangibles and then let them shine during the game. Turn them loose, be proactive.

Here a few examples of intangibles:

1) In a close game against a good team late in the game with a runner on second with nobody out can the hitter hit the ball to the right side of the infield to move the runner.

2) On a base hit to right center can the runner go from first to third and force the action.

3) With two strikes can hitter choke up and put the ball in play?

Only with Wedge do we hear K's are okay. One of the dumbest statements I've ever heard from a ML manager.

Johnny Peralta struck out more times in 3 years than Al Rosen did in 9 years.

Another recent example of a coach not laying the law down ... Romeo Crennel didn't have the balls to bench Edwards and that really destroyed the Browns and Crennel lost his job.

Not to change the point of this thread but this is a huge year for Wedge and quite frankly if the Indians miss the playoffs, hopefully they will make a change.

And how do you know it wasn't done before? There's an excellent chance that Wedge talked to Betancourt privately about this before the PC. And why didn't he yank him? Well at the time of the PC, Betancourt was 4th among Indian relievers in IP. The Indians bullpen wasn't too pretty, and Betancourt, still with good peripherals - his FIP was under 4.00 even while not throwing inside, was needed to get outs. And I don't agree that showing up a player on the field is the best way to go about it, I think you you keep those things behind closed doors. But that's an opinion on each of our parts, and managers have won both ways. And I certainly hope you don't think the way to measure a ballplayer is by those little things. They are a factor to consider, but have to be put behind big picture things - like not making outs at a high rate and contributing to ending the game quicker or hitting the ball hard when on offense (say OBP and SLG) and not letting the other team do that when on defense.

Bigfist wrote:I preface this by saying that I think Eric Wedge is an AVERAGE major league manager..not the best and not the worst. Last year at this time, I would have said he was in the bottom third, but the way the Indians did not quit last year gave me a little more respect for him.

Gosh, I've heard this so many times I could puke. Sure the team played good down the stretch. They also played as 1 of the bottom 5-6 teams from April-August. The horrific start made the finish look all the better.

How many times does a supposed contender have to tank out of the gate before Tribe fans get it?

I hope they don't tank out of the gate again this year, but they usually do since the motivator took control of the ship. 1 day Tribe fans will finally point the finger in the right direction.

Good posts Mike.

If the Dolans owned BP, they'd give promotions to everyone responsible for the oil spill.

So, you're saying the team was bad in the first few months not so much because Hafner, Victor, Fausto and Jake all got injured ... but rather because Wedge is a bad motivator? Is that it? Golly, you sure know a lot about baseball!