Contributions from our Members: Overcoming Condemnation ... Why do you allow condemnation to overwhelm you when you see your child's weak areas or your own weaknesses? You do need to work in these areas, but don't try to tackle everything at once. It will not only overwhelm you, but it will overwhelm your child and take the joy out of homeschooling and learning together!

If someone emotionally injures someone during a phase of mental illness, then receives medical treatment and becomes stable again, is it safe or wise to push them to recognize what they did for the sake of helping the injured party forgive and move on?

You know how it is so healing to hear someone say, "I'm sorry I hurt you, please forgive me?" If the person is unaware of the hurt because it happened while they were "not themselves," is it safe or necessary to bring it up for the sake of the mentally well person who is now suffering the residual pain of the hurt.

"Suck it up and move on" isn't necessarily the most helpful advice for the injured party. But is a version of that, leaving it to the Lord, and trusting that He will work things to His own purpose, sufficient for a Christian who has been injured by someone who didn't understand the hurt she was inflicting?

What is the proper biblical counsel for the injured party? What is the proper biblical approach to the now-stable mentally ill person who is now functioning well with no understanding of the hurt, but who is also insecure and fragile?

I think it depends on the nature of the relationship and how open the mentally ill person is to examining his own behavior. The mentally ill person needs to understand that relationship can only go as deep as both parties are willing to repent and forgive as injuries arise (as they will in any relationship). The injured party can forgive and continue to love in the power of the Spirit, but if there is no recognition and repentance on the others part then a wall of distrust builds up between them.

I don't necessarily think that mentally ill people are "fragile." It seems that way and sometimes they play that up in an effort to manipulate those around them, so their family walks on eggshells. I think the effort to manipulate is sometimes a result of family not understanding the basics of mental illness so the mentally ill person feels a need to manipulate because they feel so misunderstood. But if people understand the mental illness as an illness and do not blame the ill person for his illness, then I think there is no need to walk on eggshells either to protect the ill person or to preserve relationship. The mental illness will happen whether we are forthright and honest or whether we beat around the bush and avoid dealing with issues. Mentally ill people tend to be needy, and even (or especially) without medication they will keep coming back to the people they need.

I think that all people, but especially mentally ill people, need honest and loving feedback about how their actions affect those around them because mental illness obscures reality. So if the offended party cares about the relationship, I would encourage him to discuss the situation with the person who hurt him, to try not to blame but to talk about how it hurt and how it affects the relationship.

JanetR
daughter of the King since 1980
wife to dh since 1981
mom to five of the most incredible adults on the planet, one wonderful 18yo, and grandma to two bouncy grandsons

My response is not specifically based on scripture (I would have to do some careful thinking about what is in scripture about this topic, since mental illness was understood so differently in Biblical times), but is based on personal experience with drug addiction and alcoholism, which are situations with many similarities to mental illness.

AA and other 12 step programs addresses this issue directly in the first 10 steps in a very helpful way:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

These tried and true steps suggest that a good portion of recovery is the process of coming to God and then asking forgiveness, including making amends to those we had harmed. I would suggest that this is a helpful process for the recovering mentally ill as well, and that it may require some help and counseling for all involved to get to a place of healing and forgiveness.

This is not an easy process at all. Many alcoholics in recovery take a year or more to accomplish the first 2 or 3 steps, even with lots of support. Recovery is a lot like grief; there's no particular timetable that a person will follow.

We as Christians are to turn the other cheek, to go the extra mile, to pray for those who persecute us. If we are in our right minds, we are more capable of patience than the ill person may be of repentance, at least at first. But I don't believe that complete recovery has happened until repentance takes place. That repentance is healing in and of itself.

A good counselor can work with all parties to come to a place of healing.

I don't necessarily think that mentally ill people are "fragile." It seems that way and sometimes they play that up in an effort to manipulate those around them, so their family walks on eggshells. I think the effort to manipulate is sometimes a result of family not understanding the basics of mental illness so the mentally ill person feels a need to manipulate because they feel so misunderstood. But if people understand the mental illness as an illness and do not blame the ill person for his illness, then I think there is no need to walk on eggshells either to protect the ill person or to preserve relationship. The mental illness will happen whether we are forthright and honest or whether we beat around the bush and avoid dealing with issues. Mentally ill people tend to be needy, and even (or especially) without medication they will keep coming back to the people they need.

I think that all people, but especially mentally ill people, need honest and loving feedback about how their actions affect those around them because mental illness obscures reality.

This is really ... almost condescending sounding, Janet. Is this what you intended?

"Mentally ill" people aren't some special class of substandard people, and I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but your post sure makes it sound that way.

It's discouraging to me to read this. THIS type of thought is *exactly* why I hate telling people I have a mental illness- it seems there is a preconceived train of thought that mental illness equals manipulators, users, needy, whiny, have to be patted on the head and led along OR bipolar/psychotic crazy where you burn down the house and scream at someone in Walmart because their cart got too close to yours.

As a "mentally ill" person, Yes. I would like to know, kindly, if I hurt your feelings but I would NOT like to know when I'm in the throes of it. I typically already DO know if I've hurt someone- my children, for example - because I have the Holy Spirit's conviction and I try very hard to make it right. But yes, I would appreciate if one of my children were feeling particularly hurt by something I said or did, that later, when I was not unstable, they would let me know and we could discuss it.

That being said, IF I were psychotic- No. A psychotic person really doesn't even know what they did and couldn't change it even if they wanted to and it would be more hurtful, in my opinion, to bring it up. But that's just my opinion. And I feel the same for a really manic person as well. Same thing.

I KNOW there are times during my mental illness that I cannot control certain things. And it is what it is, but if I was LUCID during the time I hurt someone, I would be open to them coming to me in love. Not to expect me to NOT behave this way again, because I am mentally ill (and even on medication) but to say, "Did you really mean this? I know you weren't yourself but it still hurt me..." kind of conversation. I would appreciate this because I am a Christian and I want to behave as a Godly person. I won't get into the whole debate of "Can mentally ill people control themselves or not" because I really think you have to be mentally ill to even pretend to know the answer to that. But as far as afterward, I think it would be fine to approach in love with the attitude of "I know you weren't yourself, but..." and then leave it.

Mentally ill people ARE needy because they're ILL. People who are ILL are needy people- physically or mentally. I don't think it's fair at all to paint that with such a broad brush stroke. And I think unless we've walked through that path of mental illness, we can't possibly fathom what it's like for the person who is suffering. I just said to my therapist yesterday that, even though I've had mental illness all my life, I've kept it together pretty well except for a few episodes- and I tended to be very judgmental of other mentally ill people in my therapy groups who "couldn't get their stuff together." And now.... here I am. I can't get MY stuff together. And it's really convicting and it's really humbling to me. It's only by the grace of God that ANY of us function in this life- mentally ill, physically ill, whatever. I think we have to be careful not to generalize and to realize we're ALL needy.

I don't necessarily think that mentally ill people are "fragile." It seems that way and sometimes they play that up in an effort to manipulate those around them, so their family walks on eggshells. I think the effort to manipulate is sometimes a result of family not understanding the basics of mental illness so the mentally ill person feels a need to manipulate because they feel so misunderstood. But if people understand the mental illness as an illness and do not blame the ill person for his illness, then I think there is no need to walk on eggshells either to protect the ill person or to preserve relationship. The mental illness will happen whether we are forthright and honest or whether we beat around the bush and avoid dealing with issues. Mentally ill people tend to be needy, and even (or especially) without medication they will keep coming back to the people they need.

I think that all people, but especially mentally ill people, need honest and loving feedback about how their actions affect those around them because mental illness obscures reality.

This is really ... almost condescending sounding, Janet. Is this what you intended?

"Mentally ill" people aren't some special class of substandard people, and I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but your post sure makes it sound that way.

It's discouraging to me to read this.

Michelle, no I definitely did not mean it to sound that way and I'm so sorry it was discouraging to you. I meant it to sound matter-of-fact because I do see mental illness as an illness. I do not have a mental illness, but there are several people in my life who do. One of them is my sister, who I love, but she tends to be manipulative, in my opinion because she was dealing with her mental illness before anyone understood it as an illness, and she felt very misunderstood and does not stay on medication and has trouble maintaining any relationships. I do not see you that way at all, neither do I see my two daughters that way, both of whom are bi-polar.

In my mind, it would be condescending to consider them fragile and unable to consider their own actions. Given, of course, that they are in a stable place at the moment. You don't ask someone going through chemotherapy to run a half marathon with you, and you don't ask someone who is recovering from depression or a psychotic episode to dig deep and hash things out with you. You wait until they are stable, which Lisa said this person is.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel the phrase "mentally ill people" is condescending. Again, I did not mean it that way but I am very interested in your thought on this because I do not want to inadvertently hurt someone I might be talking to about this. I guess it sounds like I am referring to a "class" of people because I am. Mental illness does not usually just go away but is more a condition that must be managed for life. That does not mean I consider this "class" of people substandard. On the contrary, I have been known to tell people that my daughter is one of the strongest, wisest people I know. (Just referring to one daughter with that statement because the other was just diagnosed though we suspected for quite a while.)

Again, I'm really sorry that it sounded condescending. Please know that even though I cannot really understand what I have not experienced, I admire the strength I know it takes to deal with mental illness, to not allow yourself to stay in denial, the energy it takes to get out of bed and take care of basic needs and even more those for whom you might be responsible. The frustration of having clear thoughts and not be able to put the words together to communicate those thoughts. The side effects of medication that are worse than the symptoms and the trial and error to get the medications right. The long waits to see a psychiatrist and the hassles with insurance companies. Sister, I'm crying as I write this because I have felt the pain of those I love go through this. I'm so sorry you have to deal with it.

JanetR
daughter of the King since 1980
wife to dh since 1981
mom to five of the most incredible adults on the planet, one wonderful 18yo, and grandma to two bouncy grandsons

Janet- Yes, thank you, that clears things up. I did read through your post several times and then responded. I am not averse to the phrase "mentally ill people." I think I put it in quotes as more of an emphasis, rather than something I think is offensive. I actually think the term mentally ill is a fairly good term - it's better than "crazy" or "off her rocker" and such.

I felt like you were saying that most people with mental illness are manipulative and 'needy' (as in, whiny- always asking for things, needing hand-holding, etc) and it seems now, from your second post, that that is not what you were meaning to imply.

I know that some things that we might consider mental illness are really personality disorders, instead. I've mentioned before that I have a family member with Borderline Personality Disorder. This person IS needy, can be manipulative, needs a LOT of hand-holding and if you read the definition of BPD, you see why this is so. For someone like that, I have come to the conclusion that I just have to love that person where she is at and realize that it probably isn't going to change a whole lot. Even if this person became a sold-out believer, I would still expect there to be many BPD characteristics, though perhaps the manipulation would be lessened through a relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But the child-like neediness and hand-holding, probably not. Perhaps this is where some of the misunderstanding of mental illness vs. personality disorders exist, and gives a blanket generalization that people with "mental illness" have such characteristics. And of course, mental illness and personality disorders have high comorbity rates, I'm sure. I say that just for my own thinking things through, I guess. One is chemically and I think what we would call, organic (mental illness) and one is behaviors (ways of coping) resulting from childhood traumas (personality disorders).

So for the person with a personality disorder, I would probably have a different criteria than I would for the person with a true mental illness. I think it is important to note the distinction if there is a possibility that it is one, and not the other. For a person with a PD, I would probably weigh it case by case and decide whether or not it would even be worth saying anything and decide how deeply I needed to be involved in this person's life, or else adopt an attitude of "It is what it is, and it's probably not going to change." To me, that is different than a person with a mental illness who isn't continually mentally ill.

I'm not sure why I wrote all that, but since I did, I will let it stand. Maybe it will help someone.

I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you wrote, Janet. Thank you for coming back and clarifying what you meant.

I don't have any scripture, but thought I would share my own struggles with this, and maybe it will help you and give you ideas for scriptures. And maybe it won't, in which case you can just ignore me.

Bipolar is really difficult. When people are manic, they can be absolutely out of control and it does not matter what anyone says to them, they are fine. More than fine. They are invincible. People spend thousands and thousands of dollars while manic, have s*x with multiple people, make major changes in their lives. Just absolutely crazy things that make no sense.

I do not get that manic. But I get to the point where I can do anything- "Oh, let's go shopping! Let's bake a cake! You need someone for a committee leader?? I'm your girl..." And at the time, I feel I am based in reality, but I'm not. My girls have been really good about this with me. I have great ideas and they will say "Mom, you know tomorrow morning you will be crying and asking 'What was I thinking? Why did I do this??'" And sometimes I heed them and sometimes I think I know better. But in the end, when I realize they were right, I tell them they were and apologize if I need to.

I can also get very mean. And I hate it. And I KNOW I am out o control, but I honestly have no control. And I know that flies in the face of Spirit-controlled Christianity, but... there it is. This is the phase of my bipolar that I hate the most. But after I realize I have been mean, I really do try to go back and apologize and make it right. And even though my kids understand what's going on, it breaks my heart. And I have also told them that sometimes they just need to pat me on the head and say "It's going to be OK." And you have no idea how much that helps. The natural reaction would be for them to snap back or go away- when they willingly acknowledge that I'm really struggling and reassure me, it is very touching to me.

When I'm depressed, I don't get mean. I just cry, which the kids either find disturbing and/or comical (which it can be, depending on what I'm lamenting...).

But yes- if I said or did something that hurt someone in my mental illness (and I have), I would try to make it right. If I didn't *realize* I had hurt them, I would like that person to come to me at a time that I am feeling stable. I think that if I KNOW I've hurt someone in my mania, and I don't make it right- that is sin. If I don't realize I have hurt someone and they won't come to me about it, I guess the only thing I can do is pray for revelation.

Even in my mental illness, I still know that God cares about me and that no matter what my failings are, underneath it all I can allow myself to be hurt by someone being honest about how I Hurt them (assuming it's in a loving way). That's really hard to do. Becasue when you're in the throes of it, you feel so horrible anyway. But when someone is stable, I think it's scripturally OK to gently say "This really hurt me. Can we talk about it?" (Though I have to admit it does make me shake in my boots to write this, because it IS hard to hear it.)

All that to say- If you feel the person is stable, I don't think you're wrong for going to them in love. And I think IF the person is fairly stable and is a believer, hopefully he/she will be willing to hear what you have to say and at least apologize for unknowingly hurting you.

That's my two cents, anyway. But I'm not really stable right now, surprise, surprise, so maybe that makes no sense.

And after reading your posts I am wondering whether my sister might have a personality disorder on top of the mental illness. I know very little about personality disorders and I'm thinking more understanding might be very helpful, so I will be researching it.

JanetR
daughter of the King since 1980
wife to dh since 1981
mom to five of the most incredible adults on the planet, one wonderful 18yo, and grandma to two bouncy grandsons

You know, dealing with loved ones with mental illness changes us as well. We become susceptible to their neediness, and may interpret their behavior as needing our intervention even when that is no longer true.

A close friend taught me that continuing to enable a person in recovery by helping too much shows a lack of respect for that person!

So we, too, need to repent if we find ourselves constantly being manipulated and succumbing to our perception of a person's neediness, because we fail to lovingly let the person grow in recovery when we do that.

I've learned that I, too, am powerless over the other person's problems, and that I, too, need to turn my will and life over to God. I, too, need to consider whom I may have harmed, and to make amends...even if I didn't understand or realize what I was doing!

What is the proper biblical approach to the now-stable mentally ill person who is now functioning well with no understanding of the hurt, but who is also insecure and fragile?

This sentence confuses me- if the person is "stable" then, how can they be insecure and fragile? To me, that doesn't mix, so maybe you mean something other than what I'm thinking.

I again want to address the "neediness" of mentally ill people. In my years of being in intensive group therapies and the like, the only needy mentally people I have seen are either 1) people with addictions or 2) people with personality disorders. I guess we could add in, people who just want to work the system and would work ANY system they could. But, I see organically mentally ill people as... ill. Not needy.

So I think if someone, say the person Lisa may be referring to, is mentally stable now and is still acting "needy", that does need to be looked at- Is it a habit? Is it manipulation? Is it a "I don't want to deal with this, so..." or is the person still not really stable? If it's anything like the first three, then my opinion is, they need to look at their hearts (if they're a believer) and ask God to show them what's really going on there. Do they just want an excuse to not have to deal with their behavior or the fall-out from their behavior? Are they truly NOT stable but are too embarrassed to say so- or too proud to admit it?

If a person causes their depression by drinking too much, drugging, remaining in situations that aren't good for them and refusing to change, doing things that they know aren't good for them but just going on as usual anyway... that person, in my opinion, does need to have his/her bad behavior brought out to them and be held accountable. If something *I* do causes bad behavior and I do/did it deliberately because I didn't want to change, whether I'm depressed or not, I should make it right. Even if someone has to remind me of what happened.

If I have organic mental illness where, I haven't done or am not doing anything to cause it, and behave badly and hurt people, I would still like to have it discussed with me at a time when I am stable. Unless, like I said upthread, it is psychosis or really manic mania. Then I probably have NO idea what I did and maybe being reminded would help (say, if I refused to take my medication and that's why this happened) and maybe it wouldn't (say, if nothing I did brought it on and it might just make me feel worse that I was so out of control).

In short, as an organically mentally ill person, yes- I still want to be told if I am hurtful. I hurt my son today and he told me. And it was hard for me, but we talked and I made it right. I know I was super irritable and feeling really mood swingy- and I know that it's almost impossible for me not to melt down when my brain goes haywire like that. But in the end, I would still like to be told and I would still like to have an opportunity to discuss it and make it right.

I agree with you that "Suck it up" isn't a good option, and if you pray about it, I think you will have wisdom about approaching the offender. I don't think there is anything spiritual about NOT approaching the offender, especially if it is something the person can CHANGE in the future. People feel good once they get their meds adjusted right, for example, and they go off them- which causes bad behavior and hurt- and the cycle starts again. So in cases like this, I think the offender needs to know "You hurt me. Here's how" and needs to consider that what he/she does or doesn't do (take meds, stop drinking, listen to your doctor, etc) affects NOT ONLY him/herself, but others as well. I see nothing unbiblical about that approach.

Just wanted to say that I will try really hard not to post anything else. It's helping ME think some things through for myself, as well, especially since I know when I'm manic, I can hurt people. Good food for thought, Lisa.

Thanks, Ladies....much to be considered here. It may well be that this situation in my life is too far out of my own skill set and likely requires someone with more knowledge of the various aspects of this person's situation.

Meanwhile:

Quote:

This sentence confuses me- if the person is "stable" then, how can they be insecure and fragile? To me, that doesn't mix, so maybe you mean something other than what I'm thinking.

What I mean is that the person in question was very hurtful over a period of time several years back. The person was diagnosed and has been treated and has gone back to their "normal" self and is no longer exhibiting the hurtful behavior from a few years ago.

However, this person also has issues from an abusive childhood, and much teasing and belittling while growing up...and is therefore just a generally insecure person. Putting out "feelers" about how to approach helping this person realize that during those years while the condition was untreated, people were hurt, and now feel somewhat "damaged," and would like to have their hurt acknowledged, bring about a response of shutting down and making statements about not being good enough for anyone, etc. Depressed-sounding comments. Withdrawal. Denial as well. "I don't have any idea what you're talking about."

So, while things are fine NOW, the offended party would benefit from acknowledgement and repentance, but I fear the offender would just crash at the knowledge of the depth of the hurt. I also know that the offended party has a slightly skewed view of things anyway.

However, after considering things and reading all these posts, I think that any digging will be better managed by someone other than me at this time, and I will stick to simply praying unless and until the Lord calls me to specifically get involved. I have encouraged the offended party to pray over her actions, as well as over her own hurt and see how much digging needs to be done, and how much she can let go. I've also encouraged her to deal directly with the offender, rather than go through me or other third parties, unless she chooses to go to a counselor.

Thanks for helping me work through this. Who knows when things might change, but for now, I think I am comfortable letting sleeping dogs lie.

"History Without Curriculum" ... "I am not interested in using a prepackaged curriculum for my 6yo son but am needing ideas for introducing him to Old Testament history. ... I want to make this a family affair since my husband is not a christian and am hoping this gets him interested in the Bible."