If this is your first visit be sure to check out the FAQ. You have to REGISTER before you can post. To start viewing threads, select the forum that you want to visit from the list below.NOTICE: YOUR ACCESS HAS BEEN LIMITED UNTIL YOU REGISTER!

In order to ensure your registration and verification goes smoothly and quickly you should edit your user profile and add some content that verifies your not a robot. Add an avatar or profile image, add some location information, setup your signature, send the admin a quick private message, etc. You can make these changes by clicking on "Settings" in the top right corner of the site. Once inside your personal settings control panel, you can click on edit profile or any of the other options to begin your customizations.

Doing this will help the forum moderators verify your registration and allow you access to the entire forum.If you refuse to do this or take steps to verify your humanity, there is a very good chance your account will be deleted instead of verified.Users that look suspicious or have suspicious email addresses and users with no profile information will be deleted without warning.

Mayor Bloomberg has said this, and he's been asked to state what he based this on (as others also quote these same figures). Politifact for one asked the mayor's office, and reports the answer on their site. Excerpt:

Bloomberg’s office pointed us to a 1997 study by the National Institute of Justice on who owns guns and how they use them.The researchers estimated that about 40 percent of all firearm sales took place through people other than licensed dealers. They based their conclusion on a random survey of more than 2,500 households.

In 1999, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released a report on gun shows. Investigators found that a quarter of the vendors were private sellers, not licensed dealers, and reported that "felons and other prohibited persons who want to avoid Brady Act checks and records of their purchase buy firearms at these shows." They said guns from such shows had been used in drug crimes.

Both of these reports are at least 10 years out of date. We called the ATF and asked if there was anything more recent. They had nothing new to add. We called the National Rifle Association and the National Shooting Sports Foundation, groups that oppose new efforts to track gun transactions. Neither organization responded.

Bloomberg himself has complained about the lack of new research. Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, told PolitiFact that no one knows exactly how gun sales break down between the formal and the informal markets. He said there are no data on gun shows, blaming the NRA for opposing regulation of them. Without a paper trail for each transaction, there’s nothing to count.

Legislation briefs posted on one of the NRA’s websites confirm the group’s stand on this point. When New York lawmakers introduced a bill that would have required background checks at gun shows, an NRA columnist warned this would lead to "confiscation of some or all firearms" by creating a more complete list of all gun owners.

The City of New York commissioned an investigation of Internet gun sales. The report said on 10 websites, it found over 25,000 weapons for sale.The report said that over 60 percent of sellers allowed a purchase to move forward even when the alleged buyer said he didn’t believe he would pass a background check. Sellers who used Craigslist were most likely to violate the law, the report said. Our ruling

Mayor Bloomberg said 40 percent of gun sales take place through gun shows or the Internet.

The best information on the informal gun market is based on a survey and is about 15 years old. Current regulations don’t allow direct tallies of sales of this sort. An undercover investigation found a great deal of internet activity, but it was sponsored by a mayor who seeks greater regulation. Groups opposed to greater regulation were asked to rebut the mayor’s assertion and did not respond.

43% purchased from a gun store, 6% from a pawn shop, 11% from a retail store ... KMART/WALMART et al ... 3% mail order, which would require shipment to an FFL dealer ... so 63% were purchased, minimum, through an FFL'ed dealer.

Another 29% bought or were gifted the weapon from a friend or family member.

Only 4% of sales were purchased at gun shows ... including te huge majority bought also from an FFL'ed dealer at a gun show.

The last 4% were purchased from the mysterious "OTHER" category.

So, in reality, a solid 90% or more were sales that went through an FFL'ed dealer once gifts and such are taken into account.

Sp, again, we are left with the idea that 40% of sales went through the "GUN SHOW EXEMPTION" just desn't stand up to reality ... and that's from 18 years ago when laws were easier.

Now, I have seen the videos where plants were sent to gun shows explaining that they were felons, and the seller didn't care.

Towards that I have several points.

1 - Shows such as SIXTY MINUTES and TWENTY-TWENTY have a history of fabricating similar expose' incidents.

The GM side saddle gas tank fraud is one. FOODLION fraud is another. The Mick Foley interview on SIXTY MINUTES is another. The GM/GMAC racial discrimination fraud is another.

I don't know how many of these gun show expose' shows were fraudulent ... but the network tell all industry's history is not good.

2 - Only a total MOE-RON would attempt to buy a gun at a gun show and include in the conversation "Ah shore nuff dudn't thank ah kin pass nary of them revenooer checks cuz ah dun did sum time!" I'm sure such stupidity exists ... but it is exceedingly rare.

3 - Even if you accept the news expose' as being less than gonzo journalism, if they send a plant to 100 sellers and 1 is crooked, guess which one makes the show and is presented in a way to lead people to believe they were te exception and not the rule.

4 - Assuming these plants are real, why aren't the crooks prosecuted? It s legal for me to sell my personal firearms to what I believe to be an honest citizen. It is not legal for me to knowingly sell to someone that a reasonable seller would suspect to be ineligible.

5 - This isn't to say I'm naive enough to believe that no fraud goes on ... but the feds would do the public a far greater good if they went after the crooks and left the law abiding alone.

6 - It is well established that law enforcement can pose as drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, pedophiles, hired assassins and other scofflaws in order to catch criminals. How hard would it be to send in some faux buyers to flush out criminal seller?

7 - The use of #6 would spread like wild fire, and would probably chase a few honest people away from shows.

8 - If you doubt #7, notice how many people stand on the brakes when they see the po-po running LIDAR in teams? Folks that were driving below the limit will slow down not wanting to get confused with a speeder.

9 - I am very pro law enforcement, especially when it comes to keeping weapons away from homicidal, suicidal, genocidal, dance recital maniacs ... that being said, the laws run especially heavy on picking the low hanging fruit of making life difficult for the law abding.

10 - There are more than enough laws on the books to go after the scofflaws ... except that they won't. To classic examples are when Reno JD refused to prosecute people who attempted to buy a firearm from an FFL'ed dealer ... which was and is a crime ... unawfully. I honestly don't think the Bush regime changed policy until 9/11. A second example was a school shooting in the not too distant past where an of age GF bought the weapon for an underage thug and officils decided not to prosecute. A third example is the LA bank robbery a bit back where the thugs wore body armor and the LAPD was horribly ill prepared, and a gun shop owner saw it on TV and delivered weaponry to the LAPD more lethal than the sal .38 ... ad since they did so without filing FFL foms they were nearly prosecuted ... until the NRA stepped in with legal help.

11 - When the gubmint makes such foolish choices they send the message that the penalty for peripheral gun crimes is little to none, and the penalty for aiding law enforcement is potentially brutal.

12 - By definition, an "OUTLAW" is someone willing to operate operate outside the law, and the odds of one more law ... especially when tough enforcement is unlikely ... making a difference is dubious at the very best. OTOH rigid enforcement of existing laws would most likely do society far more good.

You have rebutted a claim not in evidence, that 40% of gun sales without paperwork or background checking occur through the gun show loophole's exploitation. That isn't what I said, or what Mayor Bloomberg is quoted saying. People stating that are in error, if any such people can be found, apparently mistaking what can be supported from studies with a broader claim that cannot.

Given the proper foundational question, what you found by reading the report to which PolitiFact linked actually supports the claim fairly well (as to the past findings, admittedly old, and stated as old in the quoted piece). Switching to an alternate question is either confusion, or diversion, from the point in play.

From your source, 8% of sales had no paper trail ... half of them being from gunshows.

From your source ... 3 of 4 gunshow vendors are FFL'ed dealers. Assuming the independent vendors sell as many guns as the FFL'ed vendors, on average, which is in itself highly dubious ... 1 in 8 with no paperwork is a high end estimate and far below the claimed 40% figure.

When you factor in family and friend sales the claim fades into simple silliness.

From your source, 8% of sales had no paper trail ... half of them being from gunshows.

From your source ... 3 of 4 gunshow vendors are FFL'ed dealers. Assuming the independent vendors sell as many guns as the FFL'ed vendors, on average, which is in itself highly dubious ... 1 in 8 with no paperwork is a high end estimate and far below the claimed 40% figure.

When you factor in family and friend sales the claim fades into simple silliness.

So exactly how many guns are we talking about possibly falling into the hands of criminals?

Answer.........................a lot of guns.

Q

Remarkable.You leak a story, and then you quote the story. I mean,that's a remarkable thing to do