Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

GungFu:Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

GungFu:Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Apparently Wisconsin had learned its lesson about lack of police oversight. Read Michael Bell's story about about the death of his son and how he fought to enact a law requiring outside investigations of police-caused fatalities. It would be nice if other states would pass similar legislation.

Dictatorial_Flair:GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals./ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.

Dictatorial_Flair:GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

A good night would be a night when all the bad police in Missouri are fired, when non-lethal weapons are only used against actual threats, and deadly force is only used as an absolute last resort. That was a quiet night... not a good night.

Maybe the cops are holding on to the out of state visitors. Making them guests of the city longer.

GungFu Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

That was St. Louis City. The guy had a knife and rushed the cops. Not a "gentle giant" or "trade school aspirant". Just a guy trying to steal a little food to feed himself.

St. Louis City responded with "transparency" and "openness" immediately. They had plenty of witnesses to collaborate their side of the incident. Even though Google reviews calls the store owner/cook a "jerk", he made great sandwiches. Probably didn't deserve to get stabbed too much.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

TeamEd:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals./ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.

It's still pretty awful that they killed the guy, and I do wonder why something else wasn't tried before it came down to him going all suicide-by-cop, but the report I read made it sound like they at least made an attempt not to shoot the guy. Kind of. If nothing else, they supposedly let him get dangerously close before blasting the shiat out of him. That's kind of like deescalation, right?

LazyMedia:Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

We spend all this time biatching about the media. People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong. Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this? That seems odd to me considering your handle.

Grungehamster:1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

King Something:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400][4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think

You mean like "I will farking kill you" Man?

You know, it's not often that someone does something so egregious that both InforWars and Mother Jones agree:

Elegy:Grungehamster:1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg

I was about to say the same thing. It's funny how these threads always seem to have a near identical pattern. the outcome of this one may be different though, depending on the veracity of the whole charging story.

Dictatorial_Flair:TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals./ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.

It's still pretty awful that they killed the guy, and I do wonder why something else wasn't tried before it came down to him going all suicide-by-cop, but the report I read made it sound like they at least made an attempt not to shoot the guy. Kind of. If nothing else, they supposedly let him get dangerously close before blasting the shiat out of him. That's kind of like deescalation, right?

Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows./// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.

Elegy:Grungehamster:1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg

And that's a major reason that I've tried to hedge about the actual content of the witness video. A lot of people looked at the images of Zimmerman at the police station and said that he didn't have any injuries despite his claims and simply put the camera quality isn't good enough in either case to claim there was or wasn't any visible swelling or damage (hell, it's not even good enough to tell if that's really Wilson or another guy on the force who has the same haircut and the same build as his released photos +10-20 lbs.) However, if it is him he certainly doesn't seem to be carrying himself like someone with severe damage to his face and/or head. Then again, IANAD.

TeamEd:Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows./// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.

I have no idea. Considering what I've seen from cops in the area, I suspect that deescalation isn't exactly a priority around there.

Six arrests are pretty much a normal night in any medium sized American city. Hell, I was a cop in a county that had only a hundred thousand people, and the jail probably saw twenty plus people a night come in, and most of the county was rural, meaning that there wasn't much trouble for people to get into, but when they did, they didn't get caught.

TeamEd:Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

King Something:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400][4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think

Not every "guy with a gun" scenario is the same.

Holmes was arrested by his car without a weapon at ready.

Loughner was attacked and subdued by bystanders when he dropped his magazine while reloading

Tensions are still high enough, you don't need to worsen things by perpetuating cheap disingenuous soundbites.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

Grungehamster:Elegy: Grungehamster:1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg

And that's a major reason that I've tried to hedge about the actual content of the witness video. A lot of people looked at the images of Zimmerman at the police station and said that he didn't have any injuries despite his claims and simply put the camera quality isn't good enough in either case to claim there was or wasn't any visible swelling or damage (hell, it's not even good enough to tell if that's really Wilson or another guy on the force who has the same haircut and the same build as his released photos +10-20 lbs.) However, if it is him he certainly doesn't seem to be carrying himself like someone with severe damage to his face and/or head. Then again, IANAD.

Apparently it wasn't Wilson; in the followup to last Friday's press conference, the Ferguson PD chief specifically said that he had taken a lot of questions about the other officers ine videos, and Darren Wilson was not the officer in those videos.

So, self-employment is invalid? After all, it is has been said that freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses, and a blogger owns their own.

You can become legit, but if you just have a wordpress and your friends as readership? You don't get in the press area.

/It's a low bar; I'm not saying you have to be international corporate media. Just have a legit, money-making media outlet, and some sort of credentials. Or be a freelancer with enough clips to get a press pass from the local press club. But don't be some hobbyist whose Twitter feed is read by your mom and her friends, and think that gives you the right to in the press area.//If you're REALLY serious about being an indy citizen journalist, you wouldn't want to be in the press area anyway. You're probably going to get arrested, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?

MyRandomName:cameroncrazy1984: MyRandomName: Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn ...

We don't know how many shots the officer fired. But if he was 6 for 6 in an extremely stressful situation, then give him a medal for marksmanship.

alizeran:TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer.""In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

King Something:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400][4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think

And it was the community members who took down laughner....not police.

While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.

TeamEd:alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer.""In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

So to summarize, the only people we have who are giving Wilson's version of the encounter are:

1) Someone at the police department, who is likely friends with Wilson2) Wilson

The way we keep hearing the narrative, it's as if there were a dozen or so different people backing him up, and they were all eyewitnesses. So far we have what amounts to anonymous callers who are telling the story second (or third or fourth) hand. And they're reporting this with a straight face?

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon:TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer.""In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.

Gunny Highway:While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Launch Code:The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.

The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing. The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all. They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead. No talking, just shooting. That is all kinds of farked up.

TeamEd:alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer.""In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sur ...

A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon:/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.

There are a lot of reasons why a guy can be so disturbed that he's acting crazed in public with a knife in hand. Mental illness can happen to you or me or a family member. I'm white, so I'm less likely to get shot, but I can't say I'm immune from a public breakdown some time in my future./ If that guy with the knife someone you knew or were close to, you wouldn't want that.// The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

TeamEd:// The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

In attempt to answer the question who is a journalist and who is not, well, here is something to think about: There are many professions where you need some kind of formal license by some kind of government entity, be it on the federal, state or local level. To be a doctor or lawyer you need a license and be recognized by your state. To do hair and nails you need some kind of state license. To be a tattoo artist you need a license. To drive a taxi in many metro areas you need to get a local business license. In some places to be a fast food worker you need a "food handler's card," as some local governments in Southern California require. The one thing you do not need any formal license to do is being a journalist and/or owning a press (whether that press is television, print or blog), because a free press is guaranteed in our Constitution.

theflatline:A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

Dictatorial_Flair:TeamEd: Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows./// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.

I have no idea. Considering what I've seen from cops in the area, I suspect that deescalation isn't exactly a priority around there.

You could have left your comments at "I have no idea". Reading your shiat its apparent that you have no clue about these issues. If you think its so easy to make perfect choices, go apply to become a cop. Show us how it should be done.

JulieAzel626:In attempt to answer the question who is a journalist and who is not, well, here is something to think about: There are many professions where you need some kind of formal license by some kind of government entity, be it on the federal, state or local level. To be a doctor or lawyer you need a license and be recognized by your state. To do hair and nails you need some kind of state license. To be a tattoo artist you need a license. To drive a taxi in many metro areas you need to get a local business license. In some places to be a fast food worker you need a "food handler's card," as some local governments in Southern California require. The one thing you do not need any formal license to do is being a journalist and/or owning a press (whether that press is television, print or blog), because a free press is guaranteed in our Constitution.

Reasonable restrictions.

There should at least be a background check and a 10 day waiting period to be a journalist.And no journalisting on school grounds or a government building and your film has to be in a separate compartment than the camera while travelling....

stovepipe:The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing. The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all. They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead. No talking, just shooting. That is all kinds of farked up.

And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot. Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.

LazyMedia:If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

I'm not so sure. A whole lot of timely reporting is coming out of schmucks with cameras. The teargassing of various media groups, that chucklehead cop threatening to kill a kid leap to mind. CNN didn't bring you that stuff. Bloggers did.

Litterbox:stovepipe: The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing. The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all. They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead. No talking, just shooting. That is all kinds of farked up.

And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot. Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.

In before he was paying for the cigars he was whittling a block of wood for a merit badge

TeamEd:theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

WTF do you know about police training? Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone. If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it. If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them. Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.

Litterbox:TeamEd: theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

WTF do you know about police training? Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone. If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it. If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them. Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.

He is Canadian, they probably have some sort of video game there where you play as a mounted policed rescuing cats from trees.

Litterbox:stovepipe: The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing. The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all. They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead. No talking, just shooting. That is all kinds of farked up.

And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot. Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.

Litterbox:WTF do you know about police training? Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone. If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it. If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them. Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.

Now I do have some idea, because i watched the vid. How many people did you find it necessary to blow away within seconds of encountering them during your 20 years as a cop?

mjohnson71:TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

mjohnson71:Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

TeamEd:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Yes, but considering the first group of officers arrived 4 minutes later with a supervisor arriving a minute after that, and the fact they already had the scene taped off and secure by the time the video begins, I have to assume he's coming down off any high by that point. I'm also skeptical that the person who took the video actually witnessed the shooting for the same reason; she said she saw it happen then ran and got her phone from the other room and came right back to start filming. I highly doubt the video starts ~30 seconds after the shooting like her timeline claims (unless a portion of it where they're securing the crime scene is part of the video file and the news media just felt that portion was boring and decided not to film it; this video went directly to the media and isn't a youtube upload like the rest.)

2) tin foil hat warning please.

I don't really see that as a conspiracy theory despite how long-winded my explanation was. We have two nearly identical accounts of the officer's version of events. The one that came out earlier has been deemed a fake but the one that came out later has been deemed authentic. It seems likely to me that for them to be so similar (including having the same phrases Brown supposedly shouted at Wilson before rushing him, something that I hadn't seen claimed before the Facebook post) means that if one is true the other one likely is too. If the Facebook story is legit, we have to question the accuracy of some of it (particularly that Brown had gotten 35 feet away when Wilson got out of the SUV yelling "freeze" causing him to turn and charge yet somehow hit the ground 35 feet away from the squad car and that Michael Brown was within a couple feet of him attempting to spear tackle him when he finally landed the kill shot despite ballistics suggesting he was 15+ feet away). If Josie's story is false, then we have to question the accuracy of the media's inside sources.

Jocktopus:Apparently it wasn't Wilson; in the followup to last Friday's press conference, the Ferguson PD chief specifically said that he had taken a lot of questions about the other officers ine videos, and Darren Wilson was not the officer in those videos.

That video wasn't released to the public until Monday but according to her the officers took a copy of the video from her but didn't released it even though she wanted it released. I assume that means that he included even unreleased videos that police had found did not show Wilson but I feel that is a relevant point to make.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) I don't believe these injuries that are being proported are all that severe. Now think about this: If you can release a video showing Brown possibly robbing a store, then why not show any photos or details of Wilson's visit to the hospital. I know in that area, the closest major hospital would be Christian Hospital NW. Obviously, they are private and can't release records, but FPD would damn certain have that info. Plus they've been sitting on that rumor for days now, with no release - it would've made more sense to release that ASAP to quell rumors.

2) All of the people who gave info that could be potentially negative to Wilson have been publically named or have given interviews to the press. People arguing for Wilson? Facebook pages and random call in shows. I mean if "Josie" can go in and call some radio show, she can go ahead all call the FBI anonymously as well.

theflatline:Litterbox: TeamEd: theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

WTF do you know about police training? Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone. If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it. If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them. Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.

He is Canadian, they probably have some sort of video game there where you play as a mounted policed rescuing cats from trees.

The mean streets of Ottawa.

There are lots of times where cops are justified in shooting someone. There also appears to be a lot of times when cops shoot when they do not know how to engage mentally disturbed individuals. Up here, this case is currently big news exactly for our cops inability to deescalate a man with knife situation.

Police arrived at the scene. At the front of the vehicle, Constable James Forcillo of the called for a multiple times, believing the situation "could be contained". According to videos of the incident, police asked Yatim to drop the knife and warned him not to "take one step in this direction". Nine shots were subsequently fired by police; three initially, followed by an additional six about five seconds later. Approximately 30 seconds later, a Taser was deployed on Yatim by a second officer.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) I ...

Brown robbed the store, lawyers have released statements, Dorian Johnson released a statement he did, and then there is the police report where a cop actually went to the store to see what happened.

TeamEd:Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: / This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.

There are a lot of reasons why a guy can be so disturbed that he's acting crazed in public with a knife in hand. Mental illness can happen to you or me or a family member. I'm white, so I'm less likely to get shot, but I can't say I'm immune from a public breakdown some time in my future./ If that guy with the knife someone you knew or were close to, you wouldn't want that.// The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

Why play the race card? Running around with a weapon and making threats won't end up good for anybody.

Gunny Highway:LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media. People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong. Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this? That seems odd to me considering your handle.

If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.

Matthew Yglesias had a great article about how if anything good comes out of this mess it's highly likely that civic participation will increase in the area. May not fix any sort of perceived wrongs but might go a long way to give people a feeling that they have a say in what goes down around them.

Gunny Highway:mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man. Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

I'll pass. Not that important to me. I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Matthew Yglesias had a great article about how if anything good comes out of this mess it's highly likely that civic participation will increase in the area. May not fix any sort of perceived wrongs but might go a long way to give people a feeling that they have a say in what goes down around them.

When only white people vote you get the guy who looks like the assistant manager of the body shop at the local Chevy dealership.

mjohnson71:TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Violent crime has been dropping all over the Western world since the mid '90s. An aging population probably has more to do with it than "the American system".

Dansker:Gunny Highway: LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media. People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong. Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this? That seems odd to me considering your handle.

If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.

I'll pass. Not that important to me. I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

I'll pass. Not that important to me. I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

CSB: I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc. Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain. During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope. Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers. I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital. I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture. Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell. Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture. I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education. He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.

Grungehamster:that Michael Brown was within a couple feet of him attempting to spear tackle him when he finally landed the kill shot despite ballistics suggesting he was 15+ feet away

Whoops; was mixing up people's personal explanations of how he could get shot at that angle (that he was jumping mid-dive into Wilson while he was killed) with the supposedly fake Facebook profile version of events. Here is the Facebook entry in question (not a Facebook link; screen grabs from a fellow Farker).

The problems I had with that are the order of events say that Michael Brown was 35 feet away when he stopped and turned around when Wilson initially began pursuit by getting out and yelling "freeze" (which who knows, could just be inartful phrasing) and the claim that the robbery report came through after he initially stopped Brown and Johnson but was still watching them because he felt they were behaving suspiciously (at first the police chief said Wilson didn't know he was a suspect during the stop, but later clarified that he only stopped Brown and Johnson for being in the street and noticed the cigars in his hand while driving off that he first connected the robbery he had been notified of to the two individuals he just stopped.

Dansker:mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Violent crime has been dropping all over the Western world since the mid '90s. An aging population probably has more to do with it than "the American system".

Dansker:TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country

Good find, that's an interesting read.

Danish police have 1996-2007 on average 3.5 persons injured and killed a year. In Finland, the average was 0.2 deaths per year and in the period 1996-2006, they only killed two. Police in Denmark has a total of 11 people killed in the same period.

Let's do some back of the envelope math.Denmark has a population of 5.5 million people. At 11 people fatally shot by police in a ten year span, that's a rate of 1.1 per 5.5 million per year or 0.02 fatal police shootings per 100,000.In the US, no one keeps meticulous track of police shootings, but the number of 'justifiable homicides' is almost certainly more than 400 annually.Of those, almost all are shootings.To be conservative, let's assume that 400 number is on the money and account for a moderate annual increase to make a guesstimate of around ~350 fatal police shootings per year on average for the period of '96 to '06.The US has a population of 310 million people. That gives a rate of 350 per 310 million per year or 0.12 fatal police shootings per 100,000.

/ So, Denmark has something in the range of 6 times fewer fatal police shootings per year than the US. And, Danes appear to get upset when their cops shoot mentally ill people. So yes, I'd say that makes Denmark a relatively sane country.

Gunny Highway:Dansker: Gunny Highway: LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media. People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong. Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this? That seems odd to me considering your handle.

If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.

If only one of them does valuable work it is worth it in my opinion.

For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

Gunny Highway:While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

There seems to be a Federal investigation beginning into a "pattern" of civil rights abuses. Historically these take some time (often a few years) but result in findings and a report outlining changes. Said changes often include rather wide-sweeping alterations including re-training of LEO in conjunction with civil rights experts and locals, changes in personnel and so on.

I am content, now, to wait for facts to come out as "evidence" rather than leaked info, bad web links, tweets, etc - The most important thing going on now is what the Feds are doing behind the scenes. I am not anti-LE but taking some weird glee that this Department is undergoing the equivalent of an audit by the IRS - only worse.

Don't be surprised if there is no Dept there in two years or so - if nothing else, and absent coming law suits, their overtime has likely broken the budget of a municipality with a small tax base. There might be little else to do than an agreement with another area to take over, expanding the LE hiring pool with an eye towards greater diversity.

Dansker:For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen. Why is there a media pen at all?

kindms:Dansker:I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

mjohnson71:Launch Code: The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.

TeamEd:Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows./// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.

It's considered good practice in law enforcement to warn (when feasible) that deadly force will be used before it's actually used. Also you have to make sure that the person hears and understands your instructions, which is why something a bit louder than a normal "speaking voice" will generally be used.

I understand your concerns, but the way to deal with mentally ill people is to give them the proper treatment before they snap; requiring policemen to become amateur therapists isn't going to help matters. I've actually taken a few psychology courses, I know people who've worked in mental health and I've read up on things like schizophrenia etc. to satisfy my own personal curiosity, but even I wouldn't be thinking about trying anything exotic if faced a potentially mentally ill person wielding a weapon, the only thing that would be on my mind would be self-defense on an extremely basic level (and perhaps defense of others, depending on the situation).

TeamEd:Dansker: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country

Good find, that's an interesting read.

Danish police have 1996-2007 on average 3.5 persons injured and killed a year. In Finland, the average was 0.2 deaths per year and in the period 1996-2006, they only killed two. Police in Denmark has a total of 11 people killed in the same period.

Let's do some back of the envelope math.Denmark has a population of 5.5 million people. At 11 people fatally shot by police in a ten year span, that's a rate of 1.1 per 5.5 million per year or 0.02 fatal police shootings per 100,000.In the US, no one keeps meticulous track of police shootings, but the number of 'justifiable homicides' is almost certainly more than 400 annually.Of those, almost all are shootings.To be conservative, let's assume that 400 number is on the money and account for a moderate annual increase to make a guesstimate of around ~350 fatal police shootings per year on average for the period of '96 to '06.The US has a population of 310 million people. That gives a rate of 350 per 310 million per year or 0.12 fatal police shootings per 100,000.

/ So, Denmark has something in the range of 6 ...

In a surpising defence of US police, there is a shiatload more firearms in the States, so your cops probably find themselves staring down the barrels of guns a lot more often.

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

mjohnson71:Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man. Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

Gunny Highway:Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen. Why is there a media pen at all?

Ostenisibly to keep journalists out of harms way, and it's a safe bet that it's not something the media asked for. But since it's there and being enforced, it can only physically hold so many people.Besides, if you're independent, non-acredited media, the police can't tell you to stay in the media pen, so for farks sake take anvantage of that and report from the frontline or behind the scenes instead.

LazyMedia:HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Yeah, and those people ARE media, and have press passes. The people gettting kicked out of the media pool for not having credentials are not the ones with legit blogs.

I was inspired to look up the top earners. Jenna Marbles isn't media (mostly commentary/comedy) and she's 6th at 4.3 mil. I don't know if that's a yearly number or simply the money she's already earned just through the number of views she has, probably the latter./not too shabby

mjohnson71:Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today. Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO. And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon:TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer.""In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you./// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredicta ...

Ooh, judge dredd world, here we come! fark the courts systems, fark the constitution, if a cop thinks you're dangerous, why put effort into taking someone into custody when you can just execute them on the spot and scrape them up so much more easily.

King Something:Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400][4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think

Lougher was subdued by citizens, one of which was already shot, before the police even arrived. Unless you are contending that the police would have just negotiated with him and allowed him to go on shooting people..

James Holmes was confronted as he was putting his guns in his trunk, and immediately complied with the officers confronting him. There is absolutely zero evidence that he resisted arrest in any way..

Do you really believe that the officers that intercepted him would not have shot him if he raised his AR15 at them, you know, cuz he a white guy and all?? Is that really what you think?

keypusher:mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today. Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO. And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

parasol:mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man. Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was physically assigned a Florissant address, we didn't vote for mayor or any other city functions. There's a reason why citizens say they're from North County - it's all one and the same in effect.

keypusher:mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today. Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO. And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

It's part of a larger pattern we're seeing in major cities around the country: gentrification is driving up property values in former low income urban neighborhoods, which is pricing poor, mostly minority renters out of the market. As a result they're ending up being pushed into the next cheapest option that still put them in the major metro area (for work, friends, access to locations they enjoy, etc.) is the exact same older suburban communities that sprung up due to "White Flight" in the latter half of the 20th century.

I should be clear this isn't a value judgement: that lower income neighborhoods are becoming higher income neighborhoods which is resulting in higher income neighborhoods turning into lower income neighborhoods isn't bad, it's just a change we have to adjust to in our stereotypical view of where poor people with limited means reside. Not that our stereotypes were ever that great; during this entire process rural areas usually still fared far worse than urban or suburban ones.

It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

JAGChem82:parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man. Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...

That sounds a lot like a failure on the part of the local mayor and council. Thanks for the info.I live in a muni so small it was left out of the phone book once, but we have deep connections as a neighborhood.

As a follow up: Contrast that to where I live now. By land mass Clarke County, GA is the smallest county in the state (out of 159), but Athens is the fifth largest city in the state. I would say that the land mass of Athens would cover about at least 10 unique municipalities in that area alone. So to someone like myself who moved from the northwest to southeast side of Athens, you'd be moving from Ferguson to Jennings or Hazelwood, for example, just based on distance.

Dansker:kindms: Dansker:I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"

TeamEd:mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivismhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

iremo:All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?

mjohnson71:keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today. Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO. And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I'll pass. Not that important to me. I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

kindms:Dansker: kindms: Dansker:I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"

The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.But fine, that's half an example.

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivismhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.

the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially saying less unwanted children = less crime etc

Pull the Plug on Grannie:iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?

dr_blasto:Dansker:I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Dansker:kindms: Dansker: kindms: Dansker:I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"

The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.But fine, that's half an example.

Ugh. he wrote books prior to working with salon. He only worked with the Guardian for about a year before moving on to be at the intercept. I thought your question was what bloggers have made it big. he was and has

kindms:Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivismhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.

the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially ...

I agree. I didn't mean to suggest there is one single reason, but I've never seen anybody legitimately make a case for video games. But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX and play some Madden or Call of Duty. They can play with friends. They get a sense of accomplishment, which they need at that age. They're not out looking for things to do.

iremo:It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

The other side of this story is that a gentle natured teen was found jaywalking by a racist cop.

The racist cop made him raise his hands in the air, then shoot him anyways, in front of many witnesses in the middle of the daylight.

The racist cop had been in many dangerous situations before, and had spent 8 years working in a minority neighborhood without ever once firing his weapon....... but, he felt today was a good day to randomly pick a teenager to execute.

The shot fire inside the officer's car probably didn't even have anything to do with Michael Brown.

Dictatorial_Flair:You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

You expect him to wait for the Musketeer Squad to arrive?So they can shoot him with muskets.Because getting into a swordfight would be stupid, that's why they have the muskets.

mjohnson71:TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.

CheatCommando:mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

Dansker:Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

mjohnson71:Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

firefly212:A good night would be a night when all the bad white police in Missouri are fired quit, when non-lethal weapons are only used against actual threats, and deadly force is only used as an absolute last resort. That was a quiet night... not a good night.

TheAgeOfEgos:CSB: I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc. Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain. During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope. Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers. I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital. I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture. Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell. Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture. I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education. He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.

In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson

That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.

LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.

keypusher:mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today. Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO. And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_MissouriFerguson can forget about copying Maplewood.

I know that; I live there. But it's not a bad template for turning around an inner ring suburb. Or are you saying that once a suburb has gone black, they'll never go back?

iremo:It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

My gut feeling on what happened (and I have nothing to base this on other than feeling it is the option that assumes that the people involved are all reasonable and nobody who was actually there that day is making up their story whole cloth):

Brown robs store (to me it looks less like he got several packs of cigars from behind the counter, dropped some of them in front of the counter, hands back the portion of the cigarettes still in his hands, but grabs the ones he dropped and heads for the door, pushing the employee trying to stop him). Wilson sees them walking in the street and asks them to get off the road. He's about to leave when he notices the cigars and remembers the scanner message about the robbery,

He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.

Brown stops in his tracks and turns around. Officer has a gun on him and he fired while he was fleeing, so trying to escape now would be a bad decision. He moves towards the officer to give up or at least give the appearance that he was turning himself in (note the witness at the scene who is the basis for the claim he charged didn't say he was running, just that after running away he turned around to head back to the cop). Wilson interpreted this as an aggressive move suggesting he was going to attempt to resume the fight and starts firing. Brown is hit multiple times in the arm, crumpling and putting his hands up to block the shots, The two head shots are at this point; what was once center mass area is now above his neck.

There, an explanation that gels with both what we've seen in the evidence, matches witness accounts (except for Johnson's but he's unreliable since he was Brown's friend and his lawyer has had to repeatedly amend his statement when new evidence has come to light), and doesn't rely on the assumption that either party was completely out of control irrational. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just where I am.

CheatCommando:mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.

I have always said this: It depends on the country's moral compass. Prison in some places is like a halfway house, others a dungeon. Sometimes prison is used to educate, other times to incarcerate.

Anayalator:mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.

Sammichless:Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.

mjohnson71:Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

mjohnson71:Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.

Earlier, that calm was interrupted about 8:20 p.m. Central time when a woman walked West Florissant Avenue waving a sign that read, "I support Darren Wilson" and shouting, "Y'all need to get your facts straight."

Washington Post reporter DeNeen Brown said someone hit the woman over the head and another grabbed the sign. Police rushed to the scene. And officers put her in a police vehicle and drove away."That sign was meant to provoke us. I asked the police why are you letting her protest causing problems over here?" said Tenisha Wheeler, 30, who lives in St. Louis City. She added, "I wouldn't dare go to a rally supporting Wilson with my own self."

Amber Howland, 30, who traveled from Alton, Ill., also saw the incident. "The police walked her past," she said. "I said I'm white I can get through the crowd." I was going to hit this b--. They pushed me away. And ran and put her in a truck."

DROxINxTHExWIND:TheAgeOfEgos: CSB: I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc. Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain. During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope. Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers. I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital. I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture. Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell. Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture. I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education. He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.

In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson

That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.

LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.

That's been floating around. I thought there was a redlit link yesterday? Something about the cop raised 100K and the Brown family raised 0 or something. Right-wing people really like their cops, even while they're whining about encroaching government and the like. I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the chick posing with a gun and in front of hobbylobby were all dropping cash in his account.

I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

Clemkadidlefark:I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

WelldeadLink:dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.

or the cop authorizes it. Or it is used as evidence to prove the cop was assaulted in some court.

JAGChem82:parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be. At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man. Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...

I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

WelldeadLink:Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.

WelldeadLink:dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.

Just ask some Chinese or Russian hackers: I'm sure they already have all his medical data.

mjohnson71:I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Dansker:Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.

Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)Someone already mentioned video gamesObesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

Grungehamster:He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.

I'm with you to this point. However, I think this is where our versions of events start to disagree. Johnson says that he turned around with his hands up and said "Don't shoot". I think he misheard, and Johnson was saying "HADOUKEN". Notice the arm position:

Officer Wilson is a hero for getting the shots off before Brown unleashed a blue fireball. Who knows how many it could have killed and much damage that would have caused?

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Dansker:TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country

Police 'stop and think' action drags on, and only during the last 14 days, two Danes were hit by police shooting. Most often it affects the mentally ill

On the other hand, it is one of the most effective and efficient cures for mental illness.

DROxINxTHExWIND:mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Clemkadidlefark:I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Get back to your trailer and spend your disability check on Wilson's defense fund.

Sammichless:Dansker: Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.

Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)Someone already mentioned video gamesObesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

I'm sure I could invent more reasons if I felt like it.

I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.

Dansker:WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.

It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)

DROxINxTHExWIND:mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

The Police in Ferguson (like many places) has failed their community. I do not know all of things that they have done wrong.

The protests happening now would not happen in a community that could trust their police.

BUT

I am worried that they have pinned to much on the Michael Brown shooting.

If they are wrong (and that the cop was following his training), I am worried that they will only create more tragedy from this tragedy.

I have seen your posts, I know what side you are on........ what do you think?

If Wilson is not guilty of a crime, do you think that the protests will do more harm than good?

/I DO think it's great that the protests have gotten the DOJ involved!

mjohnson71:DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

Grungehamster:Dansker: WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.

It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)

Since it was not clear: I am aware China has relaxed the one child policy, but the ripples of it are still happening; the gender disparity peaked about 9 years ago so in another half decade or so we'll see if the fears are unfounded.

Dansker:I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.

More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

DROxINxTHExWIND:TheAgeOfEgos: CSB: I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc. Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain. During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope. Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers. I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital. I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture. Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell. Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture. I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education. He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.

In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson

That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.

LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.

It's been going around, I was just shocked at the # (And really, as in typical Fark fashion--any update/news source on an ongoing case becomes a general discussion thread). I was shocked that many people would willingly donate their cash to someone they do not know, over an incident they have little to no facts on.

Unlike parties from both sides, I haven't made a determination on what happened with Brown/Wilson--and even then I don't donate to stuff like that. The last donation I made that was not related to a health field was for...wait for it...Obama's election run. Really puts a different spin on your "LOL" response doesn't it :).

DROxINxTHExWIND:mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

dr_blasto:I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

jst3p:DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

Callous:dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

DROxINxTHExWIND:jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.

You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

DROxINxTHExWIND:Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Callous:dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

jst3p:Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital. Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

Callous:jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital. Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

DROxINxTHExWIND:mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.

Callous:dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.

Sammichless:Dansker: I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.

More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

/Just because I think so!

I'll agree that video games may have played their part, but think about this: If the "blame demographics" side of the arguemnent is true, then politicians can't take credit or place blame, and I think we'd all like to see that.So can't you at least want it to be true?

Geoff Peterson:Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.

What's bullshiat? That he was treated and released the same day tells us nothing about his injuries. The fact that he was treated tells us there was some kind of injury.

Gunny Highway:Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen. Why is there a media pen at all?

mjohnson71:DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.

I once had a cop do something similar. They approached us after we heard one officer say, "We go powder!" He asked us what we were thinking?

They found a baggie of mashed up cookies in the bottom of my buddy's backpack.

jst3p:DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.

I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.

Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.

You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked ...

I've tried to explain to my black friends (yes, I have them so therefore I can't be racist) that the whole "what are you doing/where are you going/who are you visiting" interrogation barrage even comes at us white people even when we're in the right part of town for the way we look and the car we're driving.

dr_blasto:Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.

That would be the officer releasing his records, not the hospital as you stated would be the only way you would accept them in your previous post.