My apologies for the long post, there were quite a few responses while I was away from the computer

BoxaRox wrote:I might also suggest that simple democracy might be a good way to mediate. If there are more people pissed off about the sound (and who are willing to 'vote' by attending the "meeting") than are attending the party, it's too loud. One tired asshole trying to shut down a party with 100 people, however, probably ought to find somewhere else to sleep.

I agree with you, and that's the basis most people use when making a decision as to whether or not to turn their equipment down. In the case of Outpost23, the entire camp thought it was only one woman who was upset about the noise levels and thus made the decision to keep it going.

Keep in mind that I am not defending that decision, just pointing out that the VAST majority of people who were complaining afterward (including those who later in the week came over and damaged equipment while sexually harassing the women in camp) never once came over to the camp and said anything about it... in fact, they came over monday morning and hung out at camp, talking about how great the music was and that they'd be back later in the week to join the party. They didn't even say anything to me, when I spent hours walking over and talking with every camp on that block asking them to talk to me if they had any problems. They all said they would, and none of them did.

As I said before, the O23 situation would have been very different if all of the people who were upset actually came over and said something instead of grumbling to themselves all week.

And iff you're honest with yourselves, you'd agree that if one or two people out of an entire block at BM complained to you about what you were doing and hundreds said they loved it, your first choice would not be to turn things down or off. Again, not condoning what happened, just pointing this out. Having more than one point of view is always a good thing.

Isotopia wrote:For well over five years now, sound complaints have been one of the biggest pains in the ass that the Rangers have had to deal with. Seriously in probably 90% of the cases where a complaint ha been made the peron(s) complaining made absolutely NO EFFORT to engage the offending camp. None.

Bingo. And that was no different in this specific case, as I said above.

Kinetic IV wrote:Enforcement is going to fall on us. The Rangers won't do a damn thing...so it's up to us to sort this out. BRC is an experiment in building a temporary community and that includes communication so if you run with that thought this is truly our problem. The only time we should be pulling in the Rangers is as an absolute last resort....

I think this is a good idea. Not because Rangers are lazy and don't want to help, but because it shouldn't be our job to become enforcers. We may have radios and official logos, but we are there to help people, not give tickets. And yes we may be able to eject people from the event currently, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around adding sound complaint offenders to the list of rapists, drug dealers, thieves and violent attackers that we currently use our ejection powers for. Ask yourselves: would rather have Rangers spending their time ejecting a rapist, or some dick with loud speakers? Because I can guarantee that if we have to spend our time chasing after sound offenders we are not going to have enough resources to do both on a consistent basis: we barely have enough to do the job we do now.

There's also the issue of where the starting line is: if we concede as a community that people who annoy everyone with their sound levels should be kicked out, where does that lead? Can we then use that as precedent to kick out artists who offend us? Entertainers who bore us? Mimes who irritate us? Where does the line get drawn, and how easily can it be moved? And who decides?

Ron wrote:Ron, who's guessing the Rangers would be swamped with qualified volunteers to be "Sound Cops," if the Org would get as serious about sound pollution as they are about MOOP.

It would be interesting to see if you're right, since right now the opportunity to save lives and make a real difference in the community isn't drawing many new Rangers in. Though I would be extremely sad if it took offering a chance to be a bully over sound rules to get new Ranger volunteer numbers up.

Ting wrote:You cats could at least have had some talent when playing that early in the morning/late at night. The mixing coming from that camp was a travesty.

Did you check to see whether ir was a camp DJ or a guest? Because this year 95 percent of the people spinning were ones we had never been associated with before... one of the bigger ideas behind the camp was to give a platform to DJs who were trying to find an audience. Not all of them were wonderful, unfortunately, but it gave them a chance to see what they could do with a crowd.

Good idea, though I should point out that most louder camps also have bull horns, and actually encourage other people to bring theirs to the party Great start though! I'm glad to see you getting involved in actively finding a solution instead of just saying it's someone else's job to deal with it.

Sassy wrote:Ranger, check the Ranger Rule Book -- you're not allowed to patrol your own camp.

First, as far as I know it's not against the rules and we don'teven have a "rule book". Second, I wasn't patroling... I was off duty and standing in front of my camp in case people wanted to talk to a ranger about any problems they might have: if they didn't feel comfortable talking to me, they were free to talk to other rangers. It was a moot point though because, as I said, only Jill came over. No one else did.

Sassy wrote:Hmmm, Ranger, you're starting to sound like Florence Nightingale here. You sound AWFULLY willing to help now, but why didn't you stand up for the good name of the Rangers when we were actually GOING THROUGH THIS on the playa?

I was there sunday through thursday, trying to work out compromises. There were many issues at play, the biggest one being that the majority of the DJs spinning were not from the camp and thus were far less willing to keep music turned down once I asked them to do so. The second biggest was, as I said earlier, that only one person was coming over to say anything about the noise levels so the camp decided to keep things going because there were dozens of people who were enjoying it versus one complaint. Again, I am not defending this and I actually had quite a few arguments throughout the week with my friends on the issue.

And this once again brings us back to the big question, what should be done if sound camps don't want to turn it down? Rather than ranting at me for not doing whatever it is you think I should have done, I would like to see suggestions on how to deal with this sort of issue because right now there is no system in place. And since it is currently being discussed by the org, now is a great time to come up with creative solutions that involve the community rather than creating some sort of Sound Gestapo position to deal with it.

Burning Man survived for over a decade without needing authority figures, so why is everyone's first reaction to problems like this to create more of them? I've never been able to understand that.

Ranger Mockingbird

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ~ Elenor Roosevelt

Isotopia wrote:It amazes me still how many people are unwilling or unable to walk over to a camp, introduce themselves, state their complaint and engage the other person(s) on how to remedy the situation so that each fells there's been a win-win result. There's no magic to doing this.

I would think it all has to do with the fact that the general public is told time afer time not to take the law in it's own hands. Yea yea I know it's not the law, but you get my drift... So the "right" thing by that statement , is to seek out the Rangers...

ibdave wrote:I would think it all has to do with the fact that the general public is told time afer time not to take the law in it's own hands. Yea yea I know it's not the law, but you get my drift... So the "right" thing by that statement , is to seek out the Rangers...

Taking the law into your own hands is destroying their equipment, not walking over and talking to them. Communicating with your neighbours is the first thing you should be doing whether the problem is sound issues or just being annoyed by the whistling daisy sculpture on their front lawn.

Ranger Mockingbird

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ~ Elenor Roosevelt

It's not about taking the "law" into your own hands. These are rules, not laws. Leave the law enforcement up to Sheriff Skinner's bunch and the BLM types.

Also we go back to the fundamentals...this is an experiment in temporary community. That gives us carte blanche to make up our own rules if something's not working, float them out to the ORG and community at large and see if it flies. If it gets shot down we go back to the drawing board so to speak and start in again.

I guess what I'm suggesting is we toss out a lot of the preconceived crap and rethink this. I've pulled out a white board and am doing just that. To start here's my core facts:

5: We need an idea that can be formed on the eplaya, rolled out to other online forums to be scrutinzed, then if it checks out have it presented to the ORG. If they approve it we'll need to work with the ORG to get the word out via the JRS and on the main website, survival guide, etc for next year.

6: Bullhorn justice will be a fact on the playa this coming year.

(That was basically a note to self about what we're working with...)

So with that in mind...this is going to get interesting.
One other thing.....with all the voices on this board I'm hopeful we can really make something happen here. The need is there....we have some of the best people you could want to contribute...if we can't come up with something I wonder who can?

K-IV

~~~~

Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

I insist that placement is the first step. Sound stages and dance camps want to play it loud. Good, give them proper placement. I can not find the What Where When for this year. Is the Pink Mammoth listed?

There's also the issue of where the starting line is: if we concede as a community that people who annoy everyone with their sound levels should be kicked out, where does that lead? Can we then use that as precedent to kick out artists who offend us? Entertainers who bore us? Mimes who irritate us? Where does the line get drawn, and how easily can it be moved? And who decides?

Sound art and visual art are intrinsicly different. People can choose not to look at visual art. Sound art does not offer that option. Demanding "nonbelievers" use earplugs is no more of a reasonable option than asking people to wear blindfolds to avoid being offended by visual art.

Perhaps it might be interesting to look at the situation in terms of what is a reasonable radius from a sound system inside which all people must "like it or lump it." 20 feet? 100 feet? 1000 feet?

So how far is it reasonable for a sound artist to inflict his art on people whether they like it or not?

ibdave wrote:I would think it all has to do with the fact that the general public is told time afer time not to take the law in it's own hands. Yea yea I know it's not the law, but you get my drift... So the "right" thing by that statement , is to seek out the Rangers...

Taking the law into your own hands is destroying their equipment, not walking over and talking to them. Communicating with your neighbours is the first thing you should be doing whether the problem is sound issues or just being annoyed by the whistling daisy sculpture on their front lawn.

Ranger Mockingbird

...or when you are setting up camp in the first place. It helps alot if the first contact is not over some issue.

I agree with MB's position here 100%. Also with what Badger said about most folks not being willing to talk first - when I hear talk about complaining to Rangers or going vigilante, I am usually amazed that no one has bothered to go talk to them. I have encountered a few camps that were truly 99% assholes, but they are very rare in my experience. There is usually SOMEONE in every camp that will discuss an issue, if the approach is calm and rational.

I am starting to get a better understanding why the Rangers appear to have the attitude that they do regarding sound complaints. Thanks to all who have helped with my edification.

edit: too many responses, I also agree with what Kinetic posted.

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Arthur Schopenhauer

So...before we discuss anything else it seems what we really need to do is push for "truth in placement". When a camp fills out the form so that Frog and the others can make a determination on placement of course it needs to be accurate. Perhaps a blurb in the JRS about the problems this lack of accuracy creates is in order...to maybe motivate a bit more "truth" on the applications.

And perhaps the 300 watt limit is just not realistic. Maybe people don't honestly know how many watts their system cranks out and they think 300 is high? You could flip this so many ways...maybe it's time to create a middle ground of camps that don't meet the LSSC guidelines yet are above the 300 watt rule? Is adding another layer of sound guidelines going to add to much to the volunteer placement staff?

This whole problem begins with placement so would it be too much to ask everyone to take a look at that and let's see if we can give Frog and his team something to work with? If we can hammer that part out then we can turn to guidelines and enforcement. The current discussion is kinda getting ahead of itself IMHO.

K-IV

~~~~

Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

Kinetic IV wrote:It's not about taking the "law" into your own hands. These are rules, not laws. Leave the law enforcement up to Sheriff Skinner's bunch and the BLM types.

6: Bullhorn justice will be a fact on the playa this coming year. (That was basically a note to self about what we're working with...)

So with that in mind...this is going to get interesting.One other thing.....with all the voices on this board I'm hopeful we can really make something happen here. The need is there....we have some of the best people you could want to contribute...if we can't come up with something I wonder who can?

ibdave wrote: but you get my drift... So the "right" thing by that statement , is to seek out the Rangers...

I guess you didn't get my Drift... I'm not advocating taking the law into ones hands.. I was just trying to point out that were taught to seek out those with the power to resolve the problems. To most people on the Playa we tend to avoid conflict. We also know that trying to talk to most sound camps that they tend to not respond well to someone asking to turn it down.. Now on the other side it has been noted that those doing the asking have not done it with grace also... So my point again is that sometimes it's easier to seek out the rangers...

These guys are getting my business....I need one anyway to counter Fred Phelps's band of fools and jackasses around here and I was wishing for a loud bullhorn when I sat with Robbidobbs watching the burn platform Sunday night. As for other uses on playa...in regards to loud camps it's only if necessary. Personally I believe in the diplomatic and bribery approach. If you can't talk someone into turning it down you can almost always get them to listen with offers of booze and beer or smokes. The bullhorn is for the hardcore cases.

K-IV

~~~~

Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

Oh, Ranger Mockingbird! You have managed to skew so many facts, I can barely begin to enumerate them. But, this is my second to last post before I move on as we are leaving for a cruise in a couple days, and so I'm going to set the record straight one last time and bid you a final cyber adieu.

You keep telling us how you tried to make sure everyone was okay with your camp. But at the same time Outpost23 was sporting signs saying, "QUIT YOUR BITCHIN" and "IF YOU DON'T LIKE OUR MUSIC THEN MOVE". I think you are not being very truthful and you are trying to make your rude camp seem like they tried to appease their terrorized neighbors, when this is not the case.

You even admit that you knew neighbors were talking about sabotage. The fact is, you drove these poor people insane. All your talk about checking with neighbors and not being aware that anyone was upset is just so much bullcrap.

To get it out of the way, here's how I would summarize the situation: Outpost23 was placed as a dance camp, on the same street as several other camps featuring loud music including the Lingerie Lounge, which spent at least $150,000 on its sound system and bar setup. On paper it looked like a good match. The main two problems were that O23 ended up with a bigger amp, and their playing hours were different from everyone else on the block.

This "bigger amp" routine is so pathetic. And I guess you did not read my post and so I will repeat myself: Lingerie Lounge was on the ESPLANADE. Outpost23 was on ANXIOUS. You should have been on the esplanade too. And you know that, don't you?

There are two sides to this problem... one side felt that they had the right to have their party as loud and late as they'd like because it's Burning Man and there are no rules, and the other side felt that the camp should stop playing and/or turn the music down while they were trying to sleep.

Wrong. The rule is clear that you may not play a 2000 watt amp system at full volume in a neighborhood, regardless of the fact that you planned on a smaller system. The rule is clear that your experience may not infringe on the experience of others. There is a wrong side to this problem: yours.

Both sides have valid arguments

Nice try to appear impartial, but I respectfully disagree.

and it is a shame that more people on both sides didn't try to come together earlier in the week and solve the problem before it came to a head.

Hello? We tried. We left so we wouldn't be there when it did come to a head. In case we might have been successful in shutting you down, I didn't want to be there for anyone to point any fingers at us in case one of you tried to sabotage OUR camp in retaliation. What a great way to live, huh? What a fab vacation we were having.

<snip>When I returned to the camp around 4 am monday morning to make sure I was there for the scheduled party in case anyone on the block wanted to speak to a ranger (as I did for four night straight without anyone but Jill and one other guy coming over to talk to me, btw), the camp was dark and quiet. I asked what happened, and was told by the DJ that he was spinning and was grabbed by a crazed-looking guy in his PJs who was desperate for sleep. He said he felt bad for the guy, and wound things down several hours before the planned party time. I can't speak for what happened before I got there, but I do know for certain that the planned party did not happen that morning as a result of this interaction.

Well, that's a lie. They kept going for another hour. I'm not clear about the hours because the whole thing is a haze for me. But it was light out when they stopped - well after 4am, okay? Probably closer to 6am. You either forget or you are not telling the truth, and I think it is the latter.

Later on, a woman came over and said that her husband was very upset, apologized for his behaviour the night before, and asked me if the camp planned to play every night at the same time. I explained that the camp's plan was to play each night from 4 am to 7 am, and we were currently working out compromises on sound levels with the other neighbours on the block. She looked sad and said they'd have to move their tent if that was our plan... I very politely said that might be a good idea to move their tent if they were having trouble sleeping with music going on, and offered to help them move things if they needed it.

Another lie. I asked Sassy and she said she did NOT apologize for my "behaviour". How do you apologize for a guy stumbling around in his PJs at dawn begging for his sanity? Also, Sassy told me you were not polite, but your friend was.

That was the last any of us heard from either you or your wife, Player. Until now, in this thread.

That's right. Because we knew there was no negotiating. Your damn sign even said, "quit your bitchin" and another said you were going to go ahead and blast the neighborhood with sound regardless of what we wanted. Another sign said "if you don't like our camp, then move". That is not community building. That is not being neighborly. That is rude egocentric selfish behaviour.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but some people do think it's kind of hostile to grab a DJ's shirt collar and demand that they stop playing the music they traveled hundreds of miles to play. I guess it's all a matter of perspective, like so many things are.

Lie. Bullshit. I did NOT grab a DJ's shirt collar. That is so out of character for me, you have no idea. I am Mr. nonconfrontational, okay? That's why we opted to move, like your signage so politely and neighborly suggested.

<snip>Just to set the record straight on that one: no one lied. Outpost23 had a 300 watt amp when the application was filled out and when they were gearing up for the playa... but it broke down on the way, and the only one that could be borrowed was bigger.

Oh gee, why didn't you say so in the first place? Then just never mind everything I said.

<snip> As for your discussion not "working well"... the DJ turned off his music when you asked him to, right? So how is that not working out for you?

No, he went another hour and turned it up slightly later - but it was so damn loud we couldn't really tell as we sat in our tent trying to figure out how to best deal with you. Besides, you're just trying to deflect from the real issues here. I know you know that if I showed up every morning at 4:05 and asked them to turn off their sound they would not, so your point here is beyond ridiculous, isn't it?

<snip> But I honestly think we'd all be better served as a community if the issue dropped and we moved forward to find a solution to the problem for future burns.

I'm sure you want to drop the issue, because your camp is on the hot seat. Nonetheless, I think the solution will be borne of this discussion, if it hasn't been already.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather focus my energy on making next year better than sit here arguing over last year. Who's with me?

Of course you don't want to argue about how you terrorized an entire neighborhood of sleeping burners for an entire week. But it should be obvious that I started this thread and that my purpose was to expose Outpost23 and illuminate this problem and stop future people from thinking that huge sound in a sleeping area is not an assault - because it is an assault. My objective here has been fulfilled. Thanks for your assistance because I'm not sure I could have done this without you.

And from another Mockingbird post:

In the case of Outpost23, the entire camp thought it was only one woman who was upset about the noise levels and thus made the decision to keep it going.

That can't be true, can it, if Outpost23 took the time and had the inclination to put signs up demonstrating their resolve to keep blasting regardless of what people thought. You are not telling the truth, and that really bugs the crap out of me.

Keep in mind that I am not defending that decision, just pointing out that the VAST majority of people who were complaining afterward (including those who later in the week came over and damaged equipment while sexually harassing the women in camp) never once came over to the camp and said anything about it... in fact, they came over monday morning and hung out at camp, talking about how great the music was and that they'd be back later in the week to join the party. They didn't even say anything to me, when I spent hours walking over and talking with every camp on that block asking them to talk to me if they had any problems. They all said they would, and none of them did.

I don't believe you. I simply do not believe you. If that were true, it would have come up in conversations I had with our camp throughout the week. Who were you talking to? I've only seen you mention Jill - and you only know her name because she obviously tried and tried to get you people to do the right thing - which you did not until it was obvious something was bound to happen.

As I said before, the O23 situation would have been very different if all of the people who were upset actually came over and said something instead of grumbling to themselves all week.

They DID! Again, it is OBVIOUS your camp KNEW the effect they were perpetrating on their neighbors. Your signs prove it and you know it, too.

And iff you're honest with yourselves, you'd agree that if one or two people out of an entire block at BM complained to you about what you were doing and hundreds said they loved it, your first choice would not be to turn things down or off. Again, not condoning what happened, just pointing this out. Having more than one point of view is always a good thing.

Hundreds???? LOL!!!! Everytime I saw your camp there were about five or six tweakers bouncing around. "Hundreds" did not love your camp - hundreds hated it. And you knew it and so did your camp.

Today I did the last task in the long line of things to be done wrapping up, for me, Burning Man 2006. This final post here is my last - and so if I don't respond to posts after this, it is because I'm done with it.

Unfortunately, I do believe 2006 was the last Burning Man for Player and Sassy. In our years from 1997 - 2003 I felt that BRC was one of the only, if not THE only, places on Earth where human beings treated each other like human beings. You see, in the default world we treat each other like units, each of us cogs in a great machine we can't see and few are capable of even beginning to comprehend. Neighbors, for many of us, are strangers - merely units that occupy a cubicle next to, above, or below our own cubicles. We are nameless beings that clog our highways riding in steel boxes where some risk our lives as they cut in front of us to save 1.3 seconds in their way to their unknown destinations.

For me, in Black Rock City, that whole equation was suddenly turned upside down. Like mysterious creatures of the night we seemed to crawl out from our hiding places suddenly realizing that behind the faces of strangers were human beings that were, oddly enough, quite similar to us. Every year we met more and more people living next to us in tents or RVs and we found ourselves at the end of the week knowing them better than we did many people we called friends and family back in the default world.

It was a delightful, yet somehow frightening revelation at the time - as revelations are wont to be. Delightful to know that my gut feeling was accurate in that there is more to the word "community" than just an empty word designating a place with streets, cars, and houses - but relationships built upon common purpose and an deep interconnection with each other. BMORG folks love to use the word "community", and the root of the word, commune, means to converse, to achieve a feeling of unity with great spiritual intensity. And, since in those early years, we had moved to and lived in four different cities (because of jobs), I was feeling more at home in BRC. I even calculated that 90% of my human interaction in a given year happened in BRC.

But the revelation was also frightening to know how entirely disconnected the default world is, as most folks are forced to deal with bills, jobs they hate, bosses who tell them what to do, how to behave, and why they should do so, spending an ungodly amount of time dumbing down in front of the great mind programming homogenizer machine we call television - and in doing so, lose touch with that that makes them human.

And so, I was overjoyed to find HUMANITY thriving in the desert! This was where WE were!

But, I noticed something different in 2003, although I could not quite put my finger on it. Even though it was a fabulous year, there were also some disturbing things that happened. We encountered a few people that were obviously sexual predators.

Then it hit me in 2004 that as BRC was growing, it was becoming a place of strangers - and I was actually concerned about Sassy for the first time in BRC if I left her alone for any length of time.

In 2005 we had neighbors that blasted our tent with a large sound system from across the street. (And this happened in the outer streets where some folks here have suggested we should camp for peace and quiet, mind you.) They began at about the same time as Outpost23, around 4:00am. I tried talking with them, and all they did was laugh at me - saying things like there are no rules at Burning Man and they can do what they want, and we couldn't do anything about it. Our solution was obvious and we moved our entire tent one block away.

In 2006 we camped with our fabulous friends from Reno, who said the esplanade was actually pretty quiet late at at night. Then Outpost23 set up and began terrorizing the neighborhood - saying the same mantra we heard last year, basically: "fuck you, it's Burning Man, okay, so live with it. There's no rules here." And I'm sure they thought I was whiney, as somebody here has suggested. (Thanks, bro.)

Now, I'm sure the personal experience of you and many many others may be entirely different. Perhaps for us it was just the luck of the draw. As a matter of fact, touring BRC by bike at 3:00am one can see that most neighborhoods are quiet. For reasons unknown, two years in a row we get stuck with the neighbors across the street with the hyper-powered sound system on steriods.

But beyond our bad luck in neighbors, I have noticed a general change in the ethos of the attendees. Similar to the 80s selfishness that I associate with the Reagan years, it's a sort of a I'm gonna do what I do regardless of how it affects you sort of a thing. It was epitomized by the selfish attitude exemplified by most of the people that ran the Outpost23, at least early in the week. How is it that signs which read, "If you don't like our music, then move" going to create any sort of neighborly feeling?

But it's not just them - and I am certainly not saying that this attitude exists among the entire city! I know this because I know many burners - and they are beautiful. But there is this new element that I had either been blissfully unaware of in my earlier years, or that has grown percentage-wise due to a recent influx of various sub-cultural groups from American society that cling to egocentric or perhaps sociocentric ideals that would exclude human beings that may exist within their sphere of influence. In other words, just like the default world, all that matters to them is them - and fuck everyone else. People are not human beings, but units they must contend with as they bulldoze forward with their agenda, no matter who is in their way.

I noticed lots of talk on this thread about bullhorns as a method of dealing with loud camps. Really now, is that how anyone in their right mind would truly want to spend their spiritual pilgrimage, such as it was for me? Personally, I don't want to live anywhere where there are people who would not respond to or care about the basic needs of their neighbors. I do not care to be anywhere where the people I live with do not exhibit or possess the basic traits of common decency of humankind. I've said it before, but just as a bird knows to fly south, a human being knows what is the right thing to do and how to behave amongst our own kind. If this is the type of folks I need to deal with in BRC, then I'm not going back. If I must arm myself with a bullhorn to ensure sleep, then it's over.

BMORG is a very busy organization, I am sure. However, the fact that several weeks have passed since we contacted them about our experience, and there have been no replies indicates that perhaps we or our experience that we related may not be very high in their concerns - and that's quite alright by me. I have no expectations of them. But their non-response has definately sealed our decision to move on.

BRC will not miss Player and Sassy. It will continue to evolve and fabulous and magical things will occur in this very spiritual setting. And we will also continue to evolve, not untouched by the beauty that we experienced in this lovely place.

Player, I honestly don't understand why you are harboring this much hostility, nor do I undestand your refusal to contribute to a solution. I highly advise taking a really deep breath, letting it out slowly, and repeating at least 5 times: "It's only Burning Man, and it's in the past. How can I make next year better?"

If you'd like to continue the name calling and flaming, I have made my email address public as well as the address to my camp's public forum. Feel free to continue to express your views about our drug habits and general personality traits there, you have been given this invitation on this thread by multiple members of the camp. There really is no need to keep using this forum and this thread as your personal pissing post if your anger is directed squarely at us.

To everyone else who has posted thoughtful and realistic suggestions on dealing with this issue (both in this thread and in email), you have my thanks and gratitude. I would love to find a workable solution that comes from the community to stop problems like these from happening to anyone in the future, and I am here to help make it happen in any way I can.

If anyone here would like more information on who to contact with further ideas on solving sound issues within the community, please feel free to email me either here on ePlaya or at my personal email account... I will give you whatever help I am able to give.

I ate some chocolate tonight, forgetting about the caffiene content - and subsequently giving me insomnia. (How could I have forgotten that?!?!) Now I'm finally getting sleepy (due to the wonders of pharmaceuticals) and so must go to bed. After that, I'm on the go for a week and plan on being offline for one week or more.

Listen . . . I'm not harboring hostility - I purged it right here for you and all your friends to see - just like I promised myself on the playa I would. You guys treated us like shit - and now I just did the same. Live with it, just like you told Sassy to. If you don't like it - then sorry. I got just as much of regard for my desires as you are now getting from me. Tough.

Thanks for your deep breath 5 times advice - but I'm not going to repeat any of that because I'm done with you, done with this issue, and moving on and I'm not returning to BRC anyway, okay? So, it's up to YOU to make next year better.

As I said before, I have no intention of to contact you or anyone from your camp. We tried to contact you in person WHEN IT WAS IMPORTANT, and we basically got the cold shoulder - and so here is mine cold shoulder for you.

I'm done with it. Goodbye. Can I make this any clearer? It's over. I've done what I came here to do. Mission Accomplished. I don't care how to make next year better, because I'm making it better by being in Italy and Switzerland that time of year.

Do you really want a "workable solution"? Try treating your neighbors like they're human beings who need sleep in the wee hours of the morning. Try placing your camp in a better area. Try NOT to put up obnoxious signs telling your neighbors to fuck off. I don't know - just some crazy ideas that just might work. Sorry if you feel they were not "thoughtful and realistic".

Isotopia wrote:...I guess we have a shifting of perspectives here Ron. I'm of the mind that *each and every person on the playa is their own Ranger. I relly believ that in all but the most extreme and fucked up situations that there *is* a way to remedy situations such as sound complaints.

I agree, what makes you think we have a shift in perspectives? There's no conflict with the above and anything I've written. In fact, if you go back and look at what I've posted I've said that the first step should always be for folk to talk together and try to come up with a solution. I've only advocated involving the rangers *after* such direct efforts failed. Moving from my point that I personally would be unwilling to wander the playa and inject myself into noise problems without institutional authority to your above point is a jump I don't really get.

It's funny, but I've seen this exact kind of conversation before, more than once. In the swing community it often has to do with unwanted touching. At a local, large, club I'm a member of the email list hummed for *years* with, mostly women, posting to complain about men they didn't know touching them without permission. The response was very illuminating.

A good chunk of club members would dismiss the complaints. Just like folk do around here. There the cries would be, "You're at a swing club, don't you understand what that means?" Here they are, "It's the burn, you can sleep when you're dead." Then we'd get to the blaming the victim. "Did you tell the person who touched you that you didn't like it? Did you tell your husband? Did you tell management? You know nothing can happen unless you take responsibility for yourself." Just like the comments here about how most folk don't talk to the noisy offender, and how we're the ones that need to enforce the rules, not "management," or "the org." Not to mention the assumption that ear plugs weren't used or the person suffering from the noise doesn't know about them.

Next we move to the straw man tactic. In both places suggestions that we simply enforce the rules we currently have were stretched out of shape. In the swing scene it was morphed into trying to make hooking up become too legalistic, here such efforts will turn us into "sound bullies," for treating noise pollution should be just like we do MOOP. Does that mean we're currently MOOP bullies?

I'd suggest that if sound complains have been the among the biggest pains in the ass that the rangers have to deal with then the existing sound policy has problems. There is some systematic flaw in the current set up that creates that pain in the ass. My guess would be that the components of that problem, here, are education and enforcement. Most folk don't know about the 300 watt rule, and those do know that it's a joke because it isn't enforced. That's a problem, seems to me.

In the swing club in question, after years of ignored problems where the folk pointing the issue out were called names, ignored, and had their points of view distorted, enough people finally got it and policies, education efforts, and enforcement responses all changed. "No means no," was changed to "No means no, ask first," and new member orientation addressed the issue. The rates of problems dropped through the floor. Did they hit zero? Nope, but we saw marked improvement.

Seems to me that we're responding to our noise problem just like the swing club I'm thinking of responding to their touching problem. We'll spend years demonizing those who point the problem out. Working to misunderstand them, to think they don't understand the burn, that they represent some evil force trying to ruin our fun and so on. But the problem will still exist and eventually enough of us will be affected by it to drop our inherent resistance to change and growth and deal with it.

Personally, as I've said before, I think time and place rules are the only way to address sound issues in cities. And that's what we've got now with the 300 watt rule and large scale sound zone. Now if we, as a community, could agree to enforce that rule we could see if it, combined with educating folk of its existence, might reduce the noisy pain in the ass we all have to deal with. But that's just me, I'm also sure that there much more complaining, distorting, name calling, and misunderstanding to be done between here and there... :)

2: There's a need to balance the wants of the many with the needs of the few.

Where do you see that, and how do you know you're not balancing the wants of the few with the needs of the many?

For that matter, I personally don't think this is an issue up for democratic principles. The majority of BRC residents could want to abandon the LNT principle and I wouldn't support doing so. Do we vote to see if it's OK to allow clowns to club folk and take their bicycles? Is the question of rape to be settled by popular opinion?

Seems to me that there are certain issues that are not subject to the majority will. Even if most folk think your art is ugly and useless the Org doesn't get involved unless it's overly dangerous, making MOOP, or overly loud. And that's the way it should be, seems to me. I mean, did we put the question of weather or not the Belgians could burn their project up to a vote?

First off your posts made me step back and go whoa, I'm not seeing the whole picture here. You clearly illuminated some things. That being said you raised some points I want to comment on, if you don't mind.

This discussion IMHO is about clearly defining the problem and making sure the multiple points of view on it are taken into consideration. I see it as laying the foundation for a permanent fix. Had the discussion not progressed to the point it has chances are you wouldn't have weighed in with the swing club story which was a real eye opener... and a virtual road map of what we need to avoid doing as everyone hammers this thing out. (And one that I'm going to have to refer back to so I don't forget about it...feel free to remind me and anyone else about it if it seems we forget.)

My guess would be that the components of that problem, here, are education and enforcement. Most folk don't know about the 300 watt rule, and those do know that it's a joke because it isn't enforced. That's a problem, seems to me.

And that's where this discussion is kinda heading. Suggestions made include making sure that the current unenforced rules are truly legitimate. We have lots of tech types that can smell bullshit from 5 miles away so to speak, if the rule has flaws they'll quickly say so and gut the effort being made. Next another side discussion is how do we let the rest of the community know about the already in place rule? Do we ask for a blurb in the JRS? Do we stress the need for accurate sound camp planning before anyone even turns their app in to Frog and his team of minions? I think the answer is all of the above and then even more education on top of that. And I see this discussion heading in that direction about how to make that happen.

Forgive me if this is rambling, I'm not caffeinated at all this morning but I'll keep going and give people something to rant about later. Moving on, I agree that some city planning decisions should not be subject to a democratic vote, there is a need to make a decision and run with it. In this case though we're trying to revive a rule that for one reason or another was allowed to languish. Since that's happened it's got to be brought back into play carefully, you want people to know where it come from, what fucked up, and why it's being brought back now. This group will help clarify that.

Damn, enough rambling...it comes down to the rule is there, let's make it work. And the eplaya was created to build community...so this discussion is simply using the board for one of the reasons that the ORG hosts the damn thing for. And if there's something of interest going on here AG and other senior staff...or people with influence will hear of it and stop in to check it out. So this isn't pissing into the wind...we have a shot at doing something for the common good of BRC here and it has a good chance of being put in place by the ORG. Let's make it happen...unless everyone wants to see a repeat of the mess of Outpost 23 vs. Player and Sassy posts next year with different parties involved. We could do nothing and watch as more people bail from the event. I prefer doing something if we can to prevent that.

K-IV

~~~~

Thank you for over 7 years of eplaya memories. I have asked Emily Sparkle to delete my account and I am gone. Goodbye and Goodluck to all of you! I will miss you!

Placement aaagain. But this time the placement is up to the camper. If a camper sets there camp even 200 feet from a keyhole or the main drag. They puting the camp in a loud zone. This would be a bad on the camper. "after the party" was placed wrong for the hours they were seeking to play. Also there speakers were turned out of there camp. Makeing then open to complants.

I think the existing rules are simple enough -- and so is the means of diseminating them. This rule is as fundemental (or should be) as the "no moop in the poop" song that everyone sings.

Set it. Sing it (over and over and over and....) and ENFORCE it. The operator of the sound system is responsible for its proper use and therefore MUST have his own sound level meter. (sound systems without a meter MUST respond to ALL complaints and turn DOWN), Ignorance is no excuse. ONE warning and then you surrender your speaker cables. If you have chose to bring spare speaker cables, another warning is eviction for the entire camp. Period. (self-policing is essential)

Pretty simple.

With this, the 300 watt limit isn't even necessary. 100 watt systems are capable of exceeding this limit (and in doing so are more offensive than a 10,000 watt system)

Set a limit. 90 dB (average) at 25 feet is good and loud. You could make it 100 dB at 25 feet if you wanted to. That's damn loud. Anything over that is a LSSC and should be at 10:00 or 2:00 without exception. Make them move.

The nature of sound and volume and the way the decibel meters report it will still leave a big fat wide gray area that is open to interpretation (and thus) negotiation and allow the biggest asshole to have his (her) way -- in the time-honored Burning Man tradition. However, in any situation outside of this gray area, either too quiet or loud, the offender will be obvious, and can either dealt with or told to STFU.

The "losers" will piss and moan. But without arbitration, EVERYONE will piss and moan -- at least there is objective critera in place to insure that the real bad guys are the ones pissin and moaning.

Yup. Placement rears it's ugly head again. You have to try and prevent the bad applications from getting to Frog and Company in the first place. I know you're still steaming over the Ranger response. But the goal here is to stop this before it even needs to get heated much less require a Ranger intervention. You start at the source of the problem, fix that, then work your way down the chain of events....as far as the Rangers go IMHO if the rest of the process is clear cut and clearly communicated then getting Ranger support should it be needed will be much easier then sending them off to be the enforcers of last resort on a policy hardly anyone seems to know about. I wouldn't want to be put in that position....who can blame them for saying there's nothing they can do? I'd want to avoid the policy morass too.

I was saying joe camper beware. Do not camp in a aloud zone.. If we can get placement to take responsiblity simply for there oun outline/guide lines..(not putting loud camps in the bedrooms of BM).. Then the place for confrontion will be limited the the outlaw sound stages.. Already set standards are in place for that.

So new people must be warned off from camping in these zones..Burners beware.

I am senior staff and I am a member of the city planning commitee.
You can be sure that sound is going to be one of my priorities. Now,
I would not expect major improvement without support from all
parties involved, i.e., all the participants.

Frog

[quote="Kinetic IV"]Ron:
Damn, enough rambling...it comes down to the rule is there, let's make it work. And the eplaya was created to build community...so this discussion is simply using the board for one of the reasons that the ORG hosts the damn thing for. And if there's something of interest going on here AG and other senior staff...or people with influence will hear of it and stop in to check it out. So this isn't pissing into the wind...we have a shot at doing something for the common good of BRC here and it has a good chance of being put in place by the ORG. Let's make it happen...unless everyone wants to see a repeat of the mess of Outpost 23 vs. Player and Sassy posts next year with different parties involved. We could do nothing and watch as more people bail from the event. I prefer doing something if we can to prevent that.[/quote]

There really is no need to keep using this forum and this thread as your personal pissing post if your anger is directed squarely at us.

Ranger, since Player will not be responding anymore, and I'm nearing the end too, I just wanted to point out that this thread was started by Player for two reasons: 1. To expose you and the rest of Outpost 23 for how you acted this year and 2. To hopefully bring about some sort of change in the future so others don' t have to go through the hell we did.

I find it EXCEEDINGLY amusing that you're acting like such a caring soul now, when you didn't give a RIP out there. So if it's bothering you that you continue to be in the hotseat, then I say that's PERFECTION.

Ron, I have enjoyed your posts in this thread. You have helped to allow Player and I to keep our sanity. THANK YOU!!

This discussion IMHO is about clearly defining the problem and making sure the multiple points of view on it are taken into consideration. I see it as laying the foundation for a permanent fix.

So this isn't pissing into the wind...we have a shot at doing something for the common good of BRC here and it has a good chance of being put in place by the ORG.

Let's make it happen...unless everyone wants to see a repeat of the mess of Outpost 23 vs. Player and Sassy posts next year with different parties involved. We could do nothing and watch as more people bail from the event.

Thank you, Kinetic, for helping Player and I to know that all of this time and energy has not been wasted. If ANY positive change comes about because of this thread, then we'll be very, very happy.

I am senior staff and I am a member of the city planning commitee. You can be sure that sound is going to be one of my priorities. Now, I would not expect major improvement without support from all parties involved, i.e., all the participants.

Frog

Frog, THANK YOU SO MUCH for actually listening to all of us and taking an active stance on this topic. You RAWK!!!

Lastly, I'd like to say a big, giant thank you to my husband, Player, for bringing this situation to light (especially when I said it wouldn't do any good). Now, let's snuggle.

Sassy wrote:Ranger, since Player will not be responding anymore, and I'm nearing the end too, I just wanted to point out that this thread was started by Player for two reasons: 1. To expose you and the rest of Outpost 23 for how you acted this year and 2. To hopefully bring about some sort of change in the future so others don' t have to go through the hell we did.

I find it EXCEEDINGLY amusing that you're acting like such a caring soul now, when you didn't give a RIP out there. So if it's bothering you that you continue to be in the hotseat, then I say that's PERFECTION.

Sassy, I am sorry if you felt I was being rude when I spoke with you... but there are more sides to this than just yours and mine. And after talking with you, my own camp, and several people who were there at the time you came over and spoke with me who weren't affiliated with either camp, the only people who feel that I was rude in any way are you and Player (and I can't even really count Player because he wasn't even there). That might be something to think about, when you both take a step back from this.

As for starting this thread to "warn people about Outpost23", I apologize but that is just petty and childish. One camp is not the root of this problem, it just happens to be the one that was on your block which, and pardon me if this sounds rude, but you didn't even have to deal with it after the first night anyway. If you are truly seeking a solution for the future rather than a forum to vent your personal wrath, you'd contribute something on this thread toward finding that solution instead of continuing to drag your own grievances out over and over and over. Especially since both of you have been repeatedly invited to take it up directly with the people you're upset with rather than beating a dead horse here on this thread.

And no, it has nothing to do with me not wanting to be in any sort of "hot seat": I deliberately placed myself here on this thread to see if solutions can be found, just like I deliberately stood outside the camp every night sunday through thursday for the full length of the parties to make sure people in the neighbourhood would have someone to talk to (when I had just gotten off shift each night and was desperate to go to bed). Both then and now, I could have easily chosen to stay out of it entirely and remain anonymous. With that in mind, what sense would it make for me to be trying to end this hostility you and your husband have against the camp merely to save myself any trouble?

Moving forward: sound issues on streets in BM have been an issue for a VERY long time. It's a difficult situation to find an answer for, because there are so many differing opinions... some people believe BM should be as it used to be, with no rules of any kind. Others believe the opposite end of the spectrum, that there should be tighter rules and more authority figures to enforce them. Many are in the middle, and believe that the current rules are fine but need more education to get the word out so the community itself will be more willing to try to take care of the problem themselves first before calling anyone in (I'm in that group personally). Everyone also seems to disagree about whether or not rules should be different close to the Esplanade versus the back streets, at the ends of the circles at 10 and 2 versus further in, etc. There are many many factors here.

If you have suggestions for finding a way to solve these gaps in opinion, I'd love to hear them. Otherwise, I know I'm not the only one who thinks you really need to let go of your own anger and move on... it's seriously not worth all of the time spent here ranting about it repeatedly. You are both pissed off with Outpost23, we understand. Got any ideas to contribute to a solution?

Ranger Mockingbird

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ~ Elenor Roosevelt

I want to sympathize but at the same time this sounds like whining. They say the key to burning is 'radical self reliance'... well, to me, it sounds like the neighbour with the guerrilla mindset had it right when he/she yanked out the speaker wires.
Beyond that, Afterparty's generally suck anyways so fuck them.

Thanks to you, K, for actually taking the time to read my words and let them soak in a bit. :) My line about confusing writing a message with doing something was not to discourage folk from contributing to the conversation at all. Rather my intent was to diffuse the all too common situation where folk hash something out in email and think they've created a solution. Implementing a new approach to the sound problems we've got at BRC will take much more than a conversation, or a score, between campers. The Org itself will have to be involved, seems to me, and we could get ourselves all excited thinking we've got a solution that will never go anywhere because we're not the Org. That could be very frustrating, see what I mean?

Ranger M, I've got a question for you. Why is it, in all your posting and attempts to stand up in the situation, I've yet to see you take responsibility for your camp's actions and apologize? You've made excuses (we lost/broke the amp we were supposed to use), you've tried to divert attention to those complaining about you (they were rude, immature, in the minority, et. al.), you've tried to justify your actions (we publicized our intent to be loud, they placed us in the wrong place), you've tried to summarize everyone's position (and in so doing created a new one. No one is advocating *new* rules at all, that I've seen), and even admitted you all broke the 300 watt rule. But accept responsibility for your action? Apologize? Nope, haven't seen that. Why not?

Do you think you have nothing to apologize for? Do you think the folk who have complained don't deserve an apology due to their rudeness? Or? What is it, if I can ask? Why no apology for your admitted disregard for the sound rules at BRC?

Ron, hoping you'll answer this question, unlike the last ones I posed to you.

...I admit that our camp (the Playground/Blunderland) broke the sound rules this year as well. We were located at 8:28 and Esplanade, and had a dance dome with a mid-sized sound system powered by several thousand watts. To my knowledge, no one outside the camp made a complaint to anyone in our camp. Members of the camp did however, complain, me included. Eventually we agreed to end music at 2am. This meant some DJ's had to play compressed sets, or didn't get to play at all, but it also meant that camp members who wanted to sleep at night, could sleep at night (and presumambly others nearby as well). It also saved fuel. Still, even playing during the day in excess of 300 watts was technically a violation of the BRC sound policy. There is a perception that the Esplanade outside of the LSSC is "exempt" from the sound rule, but I can find no written confirmation of this.

But just because no one complained doesn't mean no one was pissed at us. There is probably no way to know if anyone was, the silent minority/majority is just that - silent.

So I apologize for breaking the rules (as one of the camp's assistant managers), and if anyone was upset with us, I apologize to you as well. I know this is a very limited forum, but it is the only one I have at the moment.

Next year, I will not be camping with the DJ's in a sound camp. I am hopeful that my new camp can work within the existing sound rules (<300 watts) and still have a good time and provide a good experience for our guests. I also look forward to visiting the loud sound camps (hopefully within the LSSC zones) and trying to get my groove on, from time-to-time.

I would encourage others to think about the pros/cons for the whole of BRC of having a sound system in excess of 300w that is not located inside of the LSSC zone, rather than just the people who happen to be enjoying the camp at that moment.

Even a modest sound system will radiate low bass for several hundred feet if it is cranked up all the way. A look at the satellite photo should provide insight on how many people that can potentially effect. Hundreds of folks, certainly, possibly thousands. Is that really the intention of a typical camp, to make sure that all the neighbors can hear the music as well as the guests in camp? Especially when all that is typically heard is the bass, not the rest of the music, and therefore not really music at all? A little volume control will not only help prevent distraught neighbors, it could very well help save the amp/speakers as well. If everyone turned their sound systems down a little, it would reduce the need for ever louder systems, and camps nearby who have something to offer besides sound Art would be more able to offer it in a proper context. There will always be a need/desire for truly loud sound camps and dance domes, but that is not the only need within BRC, and there is already a defined exclusive place just for loud sound Art. Should those with other needs besides loud sound really be excluded to the outer fringes of our city, and have to wear earplugs just to survive a nights sleep? Does that really make sense? I know it is just a week, but it is also the ONLY week that BRC exists. Everyone shares BRC with everyone else, no one has exclusive ownership of the city, not even the Org.

Next year's theme is environmentally focused. The city's soundscape is also part of our environment. I challenge every Citizen of BRC to think about that, and not just how much fuel we burn or trash we create.

Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.