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First off Oreimo was awesome, the author took a taboo subject like incest, and disguised it as a poppy kids show(which is not easy). I'm surprised (credit to the writers diversion tactics which fooled a lot of you) he managed to make it all the way through season 2 without being shut down. It's one of the ballsiest series I've ever seen on T.V. That captured a wide international audience, and atleast for me since they are fictional characters (fictional-not real) by the end (and this was the authors intention) you want to see them together. If you watch the series from beginning to end you can see their relationship escalate to a fever pitch.

Once again - Megatron420!

I agree with you completely. He couldn't write it clearly because of restrictions, so he thought if I can't write it clearly let me write it like a incest plot but disguised as a kiddy show. At first glance you would say: why rejecting all the girls and go back to being sibling, are you trolling the audience? (kuroneko being hurt, a fight with Manami etc). Do you really believe they went through all that trouble for the purpose of reconciling again? And what the f... has siblings reconciling to do with romance (wedding, dating, kiss etc.?).

After watching it again and paying attention to their behavior, words etc, you would understand no, the ending is not like that at all.

Looking back at the first season 1 in 2010 (didn't read the novel at that time). Kirino got my attention in the first episode. I thought at that this time, this girl has something to hide for sure. Because the way she asked Kyousuke about her imouto eroge fetish. She didn't ask it in the point of view of society but she was on interested in his opinion. She asked it again and again. It really was suspicious. After she made sure he had nothing against it, life counseling started.

It is not a reminder for the audience, rather a coping mechanism of Kirino with her inappropriate feelings, in the light of her playing all those imouto genre eroge. Furthermore, it is only Kirino who says "Don't mix up eroge and reality". As for them welching, you are forgetting something, the recurring theme in the series is the love for each other and the realisation / coping with it. Despite Kirino always saying to Kyousuke that he's disgusting, her love for him throughout the series doesn't change. As for Kyousuke, his issue is realising his love. But at least from the end of season 1 forward, his love is showing itself quite often and doesn't change despite some of his outward actions. They may tell different things at different times, but this central theme is a constant. If you say the welched too much for their feelings to hold true, you are basically questioning and discounting the entire story in itself.

Not even really suggesting anything about their feelings, but only their statements about how they will proceed. That isn't discounting the story, but allowing that the characters did not finish growing at the end of it and that the story doesn't actually resolve all the obvious impediments in their lives.

Kyousuke's perspective on all this is a little bit different though. Although his sister was important to him in the past, he had never considered himself "in love" with her, and thus had spent absolutely zero time and effort figuring out how to make things work. It's only over the course of the story, as other potential romantic interests start entering his life, that he's forced to come to terms with his attraction to and feelings for Kirino and what he wants to do about it (and he only finally figures it out right near the end). Obviously resolving the long-time conflict with Kirino is a good thing, but to him that issue was not about unrequited romance, just a sibling fight. Kyousuke's romantic feelings for Kirino have basically nothing to do with Kirino's reasons (they didn't start in the past, but rather since life counselling started), and although he agrees that they'll stop acting out at the end of the three months (realizing the constraints of reality), he doesn't show any signs of seeing this as the end (and this is why he closes all the other doors). While this may be closing a chapter in Kirino's life, to Kyousuke a new chapter has just begun. Although Kyousuke has seen Kirino as a sister all this time, his perspective at the end is: lovers.

And that's why the very ending features the clash of these two perspectives: siblings and lovers. The truth is that each of them have both perspectives about each other, because they can neither stop being siblings nor deny what happened beyond that.

It did seem apparent to me that there was the sibling side and then there was the lover side. Though I couldn't tell if the author wanted to keep a balance or just dive headlong into them being lovers. Maybe because of the show needing to keep some suspense alive until the last 3 episodes that everything was more hidden then it need be. But it is as you said, the perspectives run in parallel and I'm glad you pointed it out so succinctly. Each of them carries both views of the other. Though dual development in Kirino felt much more clear cut than that of Kyousuke.

Kirino's story already started with a deep sisterly affection for her brother and romantic love forms through the years of brooding over a sibling estrangement. That seems simple and plausible enough so I am easily convinced to this end.

The thread of Kyousuke's romantic development seems much more obscure. Kyousuke's strongest characterization has got to be his brotherly affection for Kirino. From readily accepting her otakuness, many times consulting Manami about her sister, to taking a punch to the face from father to protect her sister is about as big brother as you can get. Then evolution from there into love was lost on me. The anime did show Kyousuke reacting jealously over Mikagami but what other gradual sign that Kyousuke saw her sister as a potential lover I cannot recount. It is only after the repetitious confessions that I just allowed myself to be convinced as that's how it is.

I think Kirino has reached some stability of the two perspectives by the end since she seemed pretty satisfied with the kiss at the alter. So at this point having Kyousuke either as a lover or a brother can be deemed a happy ending for her. While Kyousuke is now in an awkward situation with feelings that weren't there before and would likely want to pursue those feelings further. Kyousuke's flirting at the end felt like watching ex-lovers who agreed to go back to being friends but the guy is still looking for benefits. So if anyone is going to make a move, it's probably onii-san.

The thread of Kyousuke's romantic development seems much more obscure. Kyousuke's strongest characterization has got to be his brotherly affection for Kirino. From readily accepting her otakuness, many times consulting Manami about her sister, to taking a punch to the face from father to protect her sister is about as big brother as you can get. Then evolution from there into love was lost on me. The anime did show Kyousuke reacting jealously over Mikagami but what other gradual sign that Kyousuke saw her sister as a potential lover I cannot recount. It is only after the repetitious confessions that I just allowed myself to be convinced as that's how it is.

I'd say it's explained in large part with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bin1127

Maybe because of the show needing to keep some suspense alive until the last 3 episodes that everything was more hidden then it need be.

It was absolutely written this way to keep up the suspense, and keep people wondering what would happen. (The tagline for the finale was "who's he going to choose?" after all... though realistically there weren't really that many viable options.)

By the same token, I would say that things started building from the true ending of the first season with his "confession" to Kirino in America. The extent of his confession there and the amount he had bonded with her (and she with him) was suspicious, and this got reinforced again in Ria's episode in this second season. This led right into the jealousy arcs and Kirino's declaration in front of Kyousuke and Kuroneko (and the resulting agreement between the two of them about not dating). This was followed by their separation and Kyousuke's determination to hurry back home to be by Kirino's side (despite others continuing to express interest).

I think the romantic signs from Kyousuke were definitely increasing in a linear fashion, but in people's mind there was always the idea that it could all be dismissed as really-really-close sibling affection if Kyousuke chose someone else, because no matter what happened Kirino and Kyousuke will always remain siblings. If Kirino had any other kind of relationship with him that wasn't familial, it would have been way more obvious. The author absolutely played this to his benefit in keeping people guessing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bin1127

While Kyousuke is now in an awkward situation with feelings that weren't there before and would likely want to pursue those feelings further. Kyousuke's flirting at the end felt like watching ex-lovers who agreed to go back to being friends but the guy is still looking for benefits. So if anyone is going to make a move, it's probably onii-san.

Well, yeah -- that's pretty consistent with Kirino's attitude all along. Like I said, she'd had many years to come to terms with the fact that her feelings were probably doomed. Kyousuke is the only one who can prove her wrong, and he'd have to take the initiative. I'd say that's indeed what that closing scene was trying to show.

First off I'd like to say that the main reason why I just signed up for this forum is to properly thank both relentlessflame and SigUp (as well as many others) who contributed their thoughts on the finale and the Oreimo series as a whole. After the ending aired I was a bit....perplexed, but it was through reading the interpretations here on the series that I gained a higher respect for the author.

I want to thank relentlessflame especially for translating the crucial author interviews and for helping me (and I'm sure others as well) grasp this story better. I hope you guys continue your contributions on this forum, because it seems I learn something new everyday about this series that I hadn't thought of before. (I lurked on this forum and have read most of you guys's posts on the finale)
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As someone who started watching Oreimo after noticing this huge internet backlash I checked out the series to see what it was about. I'm a very picky guy when it comes to TV, anime, games and movies so the fact that I was interested in this series was well....interesting. From the beginning I saw through Kirino's tsundere act (and immediately got the feeling she liked Kyousuke as a man) but the part of the series that got my interest was whether Kyousuke felt/or would feel the same towards her in the end.

I always treated Oreimo as a work of FICTION. Some people like to say that guys with little sisters wouldn't like this series or wouldn't approve of their relationship, I say that's incorrect in my case. I showed my sister who happens to be 3 years younger than me, she's 21, this series and explained what happened while I showed her some clips. She loved it and felt that as a narrative it was well done. That lead me to conclude that one needs a type of maturity to appreciate this series and what the author intended to do.
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My thoughts on the ending, I had to read everything I could get my hands on in order to appreciate the ending. Basically after all was said and done I loved it.

As someone who only watched the anime I was perplexed by the ending at first. But then I let it sink in and I started thinking (something few popular series force you to do since everything is laid out) and the more I thought and looked back, the more I loved the series. I looked for author interviews through the big G, which lead me to this place to read the translated views the author shared. And then I read the different thoughts and interpretations people made on the series and I started learning more. I think relentlessflame said it best when he mentioned something along the lines of, "the series was like a puzzle that needed the last piece in order for it to make sense. The decision by the author to keep key cards close to his chest until the very end created suspense, anticipation and hype, while rewarding the viewer/reader with replay value by encouraging us to go back and reread/rewatch the series and catch the hints we missed"

I'm going to stop here because I just seem to go on and on. But basically I'm glad to have found this place and hopefully I'll enjoy my stay.

Well, yeah -- that's pretty consistent with Kirino's attitude all along. Like I said, she'd had many years to come to terms with the fact that her feelings were probably doomed. Kyousuke is the only one who can prove her wrong, and he'd have to take the initiative. I'd say that's indeed what that closing scene was trying to show.

That’s true. But considering how desperate Kirino was when she broke down after the Manami fight, and how calm she was during and after the wedding, and then how happy she seemed in the epilogue… I wouldn’t be surprised if the way he so thoroughly burned all bridges, his reluctance to reveal the truth about their limited relationship to Manami, as well as his speech, all of that considerably weakened her resolve to really go through with the promise, and made her expect at some level that he would keep trying to find ways to make their forbidden love work (makasero!)… Regardless of how many agreements and promises based on common sense they made in an attempt to stop and “go back to normal siblings”.

So, basically, it could be that her breaking down wasn’t just because of her guilt then, it may also have been because she was losing confidence that she really could go through with it after all. But giving in before the promise would be stupid since it was pretty much their last chance to be lovers as openly as they could and mostly guilt free. Not to mention Kirino was never good at admitting defeat anyways, lol. And then, her insisting with the ring like that was her indirect way of telling Kyousuke that maybe revisiting the terms of their promise wouldn’t be such a bad idea (The oreimo song suki nandamon comes to mind).

But Kyousuke, who already proved how much he improved at understanding Kirino’s secret tsundere language in the last few episodes, immediately, got her message. Then, he responded with a counter attack that was probably way beyond Kirino’s expectations, which forced her to deal with the situation more directly and immediately by declaring a new series of Jinseisoudan, which as has been said; was both how their first mutual secret and first (love) story started, as well the beginning of yet another story.

Well, at least this is more or less the way I read/watched it. Though to be fair, I mostly just watched the anime, then read the wedding scene and the epilogue after it ended... I probably wouldn’t have a lot of confidence in any interpretation I made if I had only stuck to the anime, that's for sure.

I always treated Oreimo as a work of FICTION. Some people like to say that guys with little sisters wouldn't like this series or wouldn't approve of their relationship, I say that's incorrect in my case. I showed my sister who happens to be 3 years younger than me, she's 21, this series and explained what happened while I showed her some clips. She loved it and felt that as a narrative it was well done. That lead me to conclude that one needs a type of maturity to appreciate this series and what the author intended to do.

I'm not sure if I could show this anime to my sisters and get a good reaction out of them... but not necessarily so much because of this element, but because they really don't like romantic comedies that much and the show is full of "otaku" references they wouldn't get/appreciate as much. (Yes, among us siblings, I, the older brother, was the one who liked romantic stories the most, which they also found quite amusing. )

Personally -- and though this may be ironic to say in this context -- I've always felt a really big difference between "2D Little Sisters" and real life. Like you, I immediately saw through Kirino's tsundere act, and it's the same in other anime or eroge or whatever else. They're "little sisters", but I can only ever see them as love interests in their respective stories because of the "tells" they keep showing. To me, it's not so different from a childhood friend, just that they live in the same house, and there's an added story element of taboo to increase the tension/drama. So rather than be grossed out like "oh, I have a sister and this is just wrong!", I just always see it as an alternate reality where things are different. I try to judge in the context of that reality if the relationship portrayed makes sense and how it's justified.

I respect that some people can't make that separation for whatever reason (perhaps Kirino really does remind them of their real little sister and so the likeness is too eerie?), but it's never really been an issue for me. "Imouto characters" in anime are cute... but I just don't see the resemblance to real life. My two cents...

(Thanks also for your kind words...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragment_Searcher

So, basically, it could be that her breaking down wasn’t just because of her guilt then, it may also have been because she was losing confidence that she really could go through with it after all. But giving in before the promise would be stupid since it was pretty much their last chance to be lovers as openly as they could and mostly guilt free. Not to mention Kirino was never good at admitting defeat anyways, lol. And then, her insisting with the ring like that was her indirect way of telling Kyousuke that maybe revisiting the terms of their promise wouldn’t be such a bad idea (The oreimo song suki nandamon comes to mind).

If there's anything we know about Kirino, it's that she's extremely prideful and stubborn, so I agree that there's no way she'd be the first to "obviously" break the promise. That's why the ring game is sort of funny because it's the same stunt she pulled the Christmas prior. "It's these sorts of things that become emotional support later on. Isn't that obvious when it's from the person you love?" (s1e7) It's not like he had forgotten. Your true colours are showing, Kirino. (This is why it's too bad that the anime omitted that scene.)

Corticarte Apa Lagranges from Shinkyoku Soukai Polyphonica.(I can only recommend the anime series with some reservation, even though I liked them well enough mostly on account of the universe/theme and the characters (and character designs). If you do watch, start with Crimson S. Worth playing the games too, though they're currently not translated...)

Personally -- and though this may be ironic to say in this context -- I've always felt a really big difference between "2D Little Sisters" and real life. Like you, I immediately saw through Kirino's tsundere act, and it's the same in other anime or eroge or whatever else. They're "little sisters", but I can only ever see them as love interests in their respective stories because of the "tells" they keep showing. To me, it's not so different from a childhood friend, just that they live in the same house, and there's an added story element of taboo to increase the tension/drama. So rather than be grossed out like "oh, I have a sister and this is just wrong!", I just always see it as an alternate reality where things are different. I try to judge in the context of that reality if the relationship portrayed makes sense and how it's justified.

That's also my view. I was never really bothered by the siblings' aspect of Oreimo, though I am absolutely against incest. If a movie or anime is not claiming indirectly or directly to be an exact representation of a realistic / historical setting I won't really judge it through a "3D-lens". Furthermore, what I find a little bit of funny is the different attitudes of people while judging fiction. You have boatloads of fiction about violence, murder, war, killing, yet most people are not grossed out by that or have morale questions about the plot (I mean James Bond for example not only kills loads of people, but he sleeps with like multiple women in every film ). In contrast, show something like incest and suddenly many people are like "Whoa, that's gross!".

By the same token, I would say that things started building from the true ending of the first season with his "confession" to Kirino in America. The extent of his confession there and the amount he had bonded with her (and she with him) was suspicious, and this got reinforced again in Ria's episode in this second season.

I really should rewatch the S1 ending just to see how far their relationship had progressed up to that point. The first time I watched it I couldn't pick out anything obvious. Though Ria seemed to show something did.

The balancing act to not spoil it early for us was tough but as long as valid hints were dropped long the way and didn't just make up a deus ex Kirino then I think author did a great job. I especially liked how the author chose to throw everything into the open right from the 1st of the 3 ending episodes. It's as though the earth rolled off his shoulder and was finally allowed to let the cat of the bag that has almost chewed its way out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night Blitz

After the ending aired I was a bit....perplexed, but it was through reading the interpretations here on the series that I gained a higher respect for the author.

[...]I showed my sister who happens to be 3 years younger than me, she's 21, this series and explained what happened while I showed her some clips. She loved it and felt that as a narrative it was well done. That lead me to conclude that one needs a type of maturity to appreciate this series and what the author intended to do.

Maybe it's maturity, or maybe you're just living the dream.

I'm sure the author took a lot of flak throughout the whole writing and production but the harshest has got to be from denying partisan fans their Kuroneko or Ayase ending. If we're thinking about morality of incest in anime then we're more on worrying about how mainstream media compares to this. But if you're a Kuroneko diehard, the gripe with Kyousuke choosing Kirino is that she's not Kurnoneko.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragment_Searcher

So, basically, it could be that her breaking down wasn’t just because of her guilt then, it may also have been because she was losing confidence that she really could go through with it after all.

That's an interesting way of seeing that scene. Truthfully I couldn't quite focus on what that scene meant cause I was still recovery from the Manami confession . But I always felt Kirino was aiming towards a defined and limited goal and becoming the village pariah for the sake of love probably wasn't her intention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigUp

Furthermore, what I find a little bit of funny is the different attitudes of people while judging fiction. You have boatloads of fiction about violence, murder, war, killing, yet most people are not grossed out by that or have morale questions about the plot (I mean James Bond for example not only kills loads of people, but he sleeps with like multiple women in every film ). In contrast, show something like incest and suddenly many people are like "Whoa, that's gross!".

Exactly. I felt incest in an anime is an acceptable plot element but it's not like I would propose people do it in real life. Interestingly though the jdrama Sora Kara Furu Ichioku no Hoshi with Kimura Takuya also had a surprise incest twist at the end and that shook me up more than all the anime incest out there. I guess fiction with real people is more "real"?

That's also my view. I was never really bothered by the siblings' aspect of Oreimo, though I am absolutely against incest. If a movie or anime is not claiming indirectly or directly to be an exact representation of a realistic / historical setting I won't really judge it through a "3D-lens". Furthermore, what I find a little bit of funny is the different attitudes of people while judging fiction. You have boatloads of fiction about violence, murder, war, killing, yet most people are not grossed out by that or have morale questions about the plot (I mean James Bond for example not only kills loads of people, but he sleeps with like multiple women in every film ). In contrast, show something like incest and suddenly many people are like "Whoa, that's gross!".

That's an interesting point of discussion. In my case, I don't see anything wrong with incest, even in real life. While my personal take on my relatives is similar to most people, as in I have no interest and would even think it's gross, I'm aware that others are different, so I don't expand my personal take on the rest of society.
So with that mind set then I obviously wouldn't see it as wrong in fiction too (although I do understand the whole idea that some things we are okay within fiction we think shouldn't happen in reality).

If there's anything we know about Kirino, it's that she's extremely prideful and stubborn, so I agree that there's no way she'd be the first to "obviously" break the promise. That's why the ring game is sort of funny because it's the same stunt she pulled the Christmas prior. "It's these sorts of things that become emotional support later on. Isn't that obvious when it's from the person you love?" (s1e7) It's not like he had forgotten. Your true colours are showing, Kirino. (This is why it's too bad that the anime omitted that scene.)

Haha, indeed. Even though Kirino's excessive tsun during S1 was pretty brutal, and it took me a few episodes to really like her, she soon grew to become one of my favorite characters in the series. My ranking would probably be something like: Kirino > Kuroneko > Ayase. The other 2 weren't behind by much though; it was almost a tie.

Having high tolerance for tsun or not aside, it's amazing how different people's view of these "puzzle" characters can be. Many of those who couldn't see past her veil were never able to appreciate her, and and much less accept the ending. At any rate, I really seem to enjoy these characters that require you to pay attention to every expression, and constantly scan their words and actions for hidden messages.

Anyways, those who saw these signs were completely fine with (well, the ones who can stomach incest in fiction anyways) the developments, and many didn't seem to have trouble anticipating that this is where the story was headed. Though to be fair, Kyousuke dating Kuroneko almost fooled me into thinking the author had "willingly" changed his mind about the direction of the story at first.

Quote:

Corticarte Apa Lagranges from Shinkyoku Soukai Polyphonica.
(I can only recommend the anime series with some reservation, even though I liked them well enough mostly on account of the universe/theme and the characters (and character designs). If you do watch, start with Crimson S. Worth playing the games too, though they're currently not translated...)

Ahh, Thanks; I was completely off, lol. Well, I can understand Japanese, so it's mostly a matter of buying (would do that a lot more often if importing wasn't such a pain), or finding the download when I have the time . It does seem like a fun series though.

Discovered this series on Tuesday, watched entire two seasons + extra on Wednesday and Thursday. Absolutely love it ( I cannot remember when was the last time I laugh so hard XD ).

I laughed, got intense at some of the scenes and I was simply amazed whenever Kyosuke did some kind of stunt. Man... he was really beaten up by literally EVERYBODY in the series and still he go forward. What a man...

I somewhat liked the ending... but I am felling that it is not finished.
So I am yask since I am not living in Japan and don't follow any news beside the things I read on anime pages....
Will there be something else that will go beyond this ending? LN? VN? Another anime series maybe?

Because I feel like the series is not finished, Manami did say "now you say when it is easy and you are kids, what are you going to do when you turn twenty or thirty?" They are in situation when despite what they agreed upon after they kissed ( logical end up for the story ) they still share the same feelings. They both show us that neither of them will get boyfriend or girlfriend since neither of them can suffer for the other one being in relationship with someone, not to mention that neither of them can be without the other one for more than 3 months ( it's less, I know. I am just using the anime line after Kirino left Japan ).
For now that is not a problem while they are in school, the problem will come later when they need to start to live 'normal' life.

So, anyone... will there be the continuation of the story after season 2?

Well, that always depends on the viewpoint. For me Oreimo is finished, I don't need anything more for Kirino honestly. That, however, isn't to say that I don't want other installations in the Oreimo universe.

For that Code Geass reference, you'll probably want to put that into spoilers. That's the policy here.

Spoiler for Code Geass reference:

Haha, here our viewpoints once again differ. For me Lelouch is dead. Him being alive would totally ruin his sacrifice in my opinion. I think for Zero Requiem it was essential that he didn't have a magical way out. And I also don't think Lelouch would have liked that. He always made clear that he will take full responsibility and atone for his sins. Him getting out wouldn't be it. Furthermore, he let the World of C erase his father, it is somewhat different from killing him and taking the code. I think it would be more like him erasing his father and the code.