The Packers have to shore up that defense. Their defense is awful. And it's one of the worst tackling defenses I ever seen.

I'd take the talent on the Packers defense over the talent on the Giants defense right now.

With the regression and age of Corey Webster, the Giants have one good DB left on their team- Prince Amukamara, and he's not even a top-10 caliber CB.

With the exodus of Umenyiora and Canty and the regression and age of Tuck, the Giants basically have two good players left on their D-Line: Pierre Paul and Joseph, who are both very good run stoppers with average to slightly above average pass rush ability.

The Giants LBers are basically all garbage.

The Packers have at least two good DBs out of the following group depending on who has a "good season" at the moment: Sam Shields, Tramon Williams, Morgan Burnett. And Casey Hayward was the best DB from last year's draft class. He might not be elite going forward but he certainly was elite for a rookie CB.

Clay Matthews is still an elite talent rushing the passer and "good" vs the run. I'd obviously take him over anyone on the Giants defense. I like Nick Perry's potential but that's all he is right now: potential. Their DL is average with the potential to be above average depending on the growth and development of that kid from Michigan State.

AJ Hawk and Desmond Bishop are solid as ILBers, and clearly better than any of the LBers on the Giants roster.

Peyton is less talented now? What did you watch last season? He had one of his best years! You can't convince me that there are 7 other teams you like to win the Super Bowl. Try. Please try.

1. 49ers - seemed primed for a huge season if Kaepernick can produce again
2. Broncos - not a threat in the playoffs but a regular season giant
3. Packers - always a threat with Rodgers around
4. Patriots - could be improved with a young defense
5. Giants - should bounce back with the SB winner off their backs
6. Seahawks - looks solid on paper but Wilson may find the league tougher
7. Bears - really like their offense for the coming season
8. Falcons - lost some talent, have to see if they have enough to repeat

I have no trouble naming 7 even without Baltimore. I believe any of the teams above minus Denver have a decent shop at winning the SB but I still see Denver as the #2 regular season team. I have a hard time believing that you don't think these 7 have at least a realistic shot even if you love Denver.

It's ok, he's trying really hard to tell people JPP isn't any good and will use any opportunity to tell anyone and everyone why.

I think that JPP is a good player but the hype surrounding him was out of control after 2011.

He's a top-10 run defender at DE, but much less of a pass rusher than people think. According to Profootballfocus.com, his career Pass Rush Productivity is merely slightly above average. Of course, PFF gives him high run defense grades.

Anyway, Pierre Paul and Joseph are definitely good players on that DLine. But the question is: who else is there? Osi is gone, Tuck is kind of a shell of his former self, and the rest are just bodies.

And with Corey Webster looking like he's done as a CB, where does the secondary stand?

The two big-time strengths of the 2011 defense during that playoff run were: A.) Excellent secondary play primarily due to Kenny Phillips, Antrelle Rolle, Corey Webster and Aaron Ross and B.) great DLine play due to Pierre Paul, Umenyiora, Joseph, Canty and Tuck.

How much of that is still there? Phillips is gone from the secondary and Webster is toast, and Ross came back but he's alot older now. Rolle is up-and-down. I like Amukamara but that's about it right now.

On the DLine, obviously, you still have Pierre Paul and Joseph, who are certainly good to very good players, but nothing else now that Osi is gone, Canty is gone, and Tuck looks kind of done.

1. 49ers - seemed primed for a huge season if Kaepernick can produce again
2. Broncos - not a threat in the playoffs but a regular season giant
3. Packers - always a threat with Rodgers around
4. Patriots - could be improved with a young defense
5. Giants - should bounce back with the SB winner off their backs
6. Seahawks - looks solid on paper but Wilson may find the league tougher
7. Bears - really like their offense for the coming season
8. Falcons - lost some talent, have to see if they have enough to repeat

I have no trouble naming 7 even without Baltimore. I believe any of the teams above minus Denver have a decent shop at winning the SB but I still see Denver as the #2 regular season team. I have a hard time believing that you don't think these 7 have at least a realistic shot even if you love Denver.

So the Bears have a better chance to win the SB then the Broncos do? How does that make sense?

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

1. 49ers - seemed primed for a huge season if Kaepernick can produce again
2. Broncos - not a threat in the playoffs but a regular season giant
3. Packers - always a threat with Rodgers around
4. Patriots - could be improved with a young defense
5. Giants - should bounce back with the SB winner off their backs
6. Seahawks - looks solid on paper but Wilson may find the league tougher
7. Bears - really like their offense for the coming season
8. Falcons - lost some talent, have to see if they have enough to repeat

I have no trouble naming 7 even without Baltimore. I believe any of the teams above minus Denver have a decent shop at winning the SB but I still see Denver as the #2 regular season team. I have a hard time believing that you don't think these 7 have at least a realistic shot even if you love Denver.

The argument wasn't that there aren't 7 teams that could win the SB. It was 7 teams that have a better shot at winning it than Denver.

If we're just going to talk about Peyton's playoff record than I'm not going to go any further with this discussion. Especially if you're trusting the likes of Cutler, and Wilson over him.

So the Bears have a better chance to win the SB then the Broncos do? How does that make sense?

Of course, it is only my opinion, but based on Peyton's playoff performances over a long career, it is my belief that he simply isn't a great QB once the playoffs begin, he is rather mediocre if you look at his playoff wins and loses.
I'm not contesting that he is a great regular season QB's, the wins and loses in the regular season games bear this out but he is simply a different performer once the playoffs start.

I see the Bear's offense as being SB ready, the addition of Bushrod at LT has solidified their whole OL and should give them a solid run at the championship game. Not guaranteeing they will make it there but I believe they have a solid shot, while I believe Peyton will do he usual performance, a lot of wins in the regular season, only to lose in the playoffs.

Of course, it is only my opinion, but based on Peyton's playoff performances over a long career, it is my belief that he simply isn't a great QB once the playoffs begin, he is rather mediocre if you look at his playoff wins and loses.
I'm not contesting that he is a great regular season QB's, the wins and loses in the regular season games bear this out but he is simply a different performer once the playoffs start.

I see the Bear's offense as being SB ready, the addition of Bushrod at LT has solidified their whole OL and should give them a solid run at the championship game. Not guaranteeing they will make it there but I believe they have a solid shot, while I believe Peyton will do he usual performance, a lot of wins in the regular season, only to lose in the playoffs.

So a Bronco fan thinking its ridiculous that you think they won't win the Super Bowl because of a W/L record of Peyton Manning in the playoffs, not mentioning that most of the time the Colts lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions most years. Patriots twice, Ravens last year, Saints in the Super Bowl. Yeah.
Then you go on about how the Bears suddenly will have a Super Bowl offense. Because Jay Cutler is such an amazing and consitent QB, Matt Forte never gets hurt, and the OL will suddenly be somewhat decent.

So a Bronco fan thinking its ridiculous that you think they won't win the Super Bowl because of a W/L record of Peyton Manning in the playoffs, not mentioning that most of the time the Colts lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions most years. Patriots twice, Ravens last year, Saints in the Super Bowl. Yeah.
Then you go on about how the Bears suddenly will have a Super Bowl offense. Because Jay Cutler is such an amazing and consitent QB, Matt Forte never gets hurt, and the OL will suddenly be somewhat decent.

Not to mention that Jay Cutler has taken his team to the postseason 1 out of 11 times as a collegiate and professional QB. Yet he's far more likely to be able to win the SB over the guy who has actually won the SB.

The Packers have to shore up that defense. Their defense is awful. And it's one of the worst tackling defenses I ever seen.

I agree...... what do you mean one of the worst tackling defenses. Name a worse tackling one....... I mean we made Colin Kaepernick look like Usain Bolt. Nobody touched Kaepernick and he ran for 200 yards.
Peterson also had more success against this defense than against any other defense in his career, going back to I think facing Baylor or Kansas State.

Sure, their offense looked new and invigorated with Kaepernick at the end, but a.) can he sustain it now that defenses will have more ammunition to defend the option and b.) is he a legit QB going forward and not just a "flash in the pan".

And even if the offense is great going forward, which is possible given the quality of their offensive line and skill positions - can the defense keep pace? This team won't be competing for a Super Bowl title ever again if the defense is mediocre.

A team that, for the past two years, has been known for their excellent special teams play and tough defense... two of the most unsustainable things in football, especially with an older roster (on defense) depending on a few key superstar-caliber players (Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, Dashon Goldson) that either have left in free agency like Goldson or are older and injury-prone (Smith).

Sure, their offense looked new and invigorated with Kaepernick at the end, but a.) can he sustain it now that defenses will have more ammunition to defend the option and b.) is he a legit QB going forward and not just a "flash in the pan".

And even if the offense is great going forward, which is possible given the quality of their offensive line and skill positions - can the defense keep pace? This team won't be competing for a Super Bowl title ever again if the defense is mediocre.

A team that, for the past two years, has been known for their excellent special teams play and tough defense... two of the most unsustainable things in football, especially with an older roster (on defense) depending on a few key superstar-caliber players (Justin Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, Dashon Goldson) that either have left in free agency like Goldson or are older and injury-prone (Smith).

The defense has been the one of the 2 best in the league for 2+ seasons with a number of dynamic pro-bowl quality players. They have some quality starters who don't get mentioned all that much like McDonald, Culliver, and Brooks. That defense isn't going anywhere, and to suggest that it is going to because they lost one good safety and one player is getting older is pretty much a prayer on your part.

The defense has been the one of the 2 best in the league for 2+ seasons with a number of dynamic pro-bowl quality players. They have some quality starters who don't get mentioned all that much like McDonald, Culliver, and Brooks. That defense isn't going anywhere, and to suggest that it is going to because they lost one good safety and one player is getting older is pretty much a prayer on your part.

Defense fluctuates from year-to-year far more than offense.

Defense that is predicated upon a top-heavy list of elite starters, like the 49ers defense, stands a much greater chance of regression than other defenses.

I will honestly be shocked if their defense is still top-10 next year. In fact, I'd bet money that they don't finish in the top-10 in defense next year.

That doesn't mean they can't be a playoff team, especially if their offense is good, which it could very well be. But there are too many variables and factors into what makes an elite defense to just pencil them in year-after-year as a top-5 unit.

Defense fluctuates from year-to-year far more than offense.
Defense that is predicated upon a top-heavy list of elite starters, like the 49ers defense, stands a much greater chance of regression than other defenses.

I will honestly be shocked if their defense is still top-10 next year. In fact, I'd bet money that they don't finish in the top-10 in defense next year.

That doesn't mean they can't be a playoff team, especially if their offense is good, which it could very well be. But there are too many variables and factors into what makes an elite defense to just pencil them in year-after-year as a top-5 unit.

It's not like the 49ers defense is 3-4 guys holding up a bunch of scrubs. It's well balanced throughout. You just don't know any details about the 49ers D because up until a couple of days ago you thought Manny Lawson was still on the team. It's still a defense consisting of 9 starters that have been proven to be a top 2 defense for the past 2 seasons. They also have 14 draft picks to fill out their holes at safety and NT. The 49ers will be absolutely fine on defense.

Defense that is predicated upon a top-heavy list of elite starters, like the 49ers defense, stands a much greater chance of regression than other defenses.

I will honestly be shocked if their defense is still top-10 next year. In fact, I'd bet money that they don't finish in the top-10 in defense next year.

That doesn't mean they can't be a playoff team, especially if their offense is good, which it could very well be. But there are too many variables and factors into what makes an elite defense to just pencil them in year-after-year as a top-5 unit.

I don't your argument at all. Players like Smith still have their best days ahead of them, SF, if injuries don't raise their head, is almost a cinch to be a top 10 defense next year, likely top 5 if not the best. Good defensive teams tend to stay that way for quite awhile unless they were old like Baltimore's which isn't the case with the 49ers.

The only question mark for San Fran is what Kaepernick will we see next year, will he be as effective as he was in the latter part of last season, or will he fall back, now that the expectations are all on him to be great.

It's not like the 49ers defense is 3-4 guys holding up a bunch of scrubs. It's well balanced throughout. You just don't know any details about the 49ers D because up until a couple of days ago you thought Manny Lawson was still on the team. It's still a defense consisting of 9 starters that have been proven to be a top 2 defense for the past 2 seasons. They also have 14 draft picks to fill out their holes at safety and NT. The 49ers will be absolutely fine on defense.

Elite starters:

- Justin Smith
- Navarro Bowman
- Patrick Willis

Good starters:

- Ray McDonald
- Ahmad Brooks
- Aldon Smith

Average to Mediocre players made to look better by scheme/talent around them:

Basically speaking, their entire DB outside of Goldson was pretty scrubby to average at best. Now that Goldson's gone, they're entirely dependent on their front seven to cover up their secondary. And Justin Smith is far and away the best player in their front seven, and as an older more injury-prone player, we saw what happened to the SF defense in the latter half of the year after his injury. What happens if Justin Smith is on the decline, which is highly likely given his age? I only like Ray McDonald of the others on that defensive line, and he's just a "good" player.

So you aren't saying they are top 3 or 4, but are absolutely top 5 and easily could be the best.

I said the Packers are clearly, without question in my opinion, a top 5 team in the NFL. I would accept arguments placing the top 5 teams in ANY order, frankly, but I think the top 5 teams are the 49ers, Seahawks, Patriots, Broncos and Packers. I personally like the Packers the best out of that group, but that's only because I think they're all pretty equal and I'm a homer.

So to simplify my opinion so you can understand it; Packers top 5 team. Top 5 teams interchangeable. I think Packers best.

So maybe you misread that, I'm not sure. But there you go.

And yes, I would most certainly take the Packers defensive talent over the Giants. Matthews is better than anyone on their roster, although I do like JPP, and the Packers have a deep group of cornerbacks and a lot of young players with high ceilings. Nick Perry, Morgan Burnett, Brad Jones, Dezman Moses, Jerel Worthy, Mike Daniels, Jerrod McMillian all have potential to me. Desmond Bishop, one of our better defensive players and tacklers will be back.

The Giants were 31st and yards and 13th in ppg allowed last year. The Packers were 11th in both. Yet the Packers are younger. Weird. I think I win that argument!

And if we're not bringing the Giants into it, the Packers were still 11th in the league in defense in both the main categories (8th in ints and 4th in sacks.)

But you're right. Stats are absolutely meaningless. Even if you're a very young defense missing 3 defensive starters and do decently/above average in every main defensive statistical category you must not have any talent. Thank you for clearing that up. The Packers have no hope on defense. With young players and dreadfully finishing at 11th in yards, 11th in points, 8th in interceptions and 4th in sacks for the year the Packers suck. You win, good sir.