The decision seems to be that it is an interesting feature, but that it should be postponed for a future release.

To me this looks like a good point, but I'm worried about potential backward-compatibility hazards.

In particular, the "be" keyword has been removed from the language and the proposed alternative ("become") has never been introduced. Wouldn't it be easier to ensure backward compatibility if the "become" keyword was at reserved in rust 1.0?

Another thing I'm worried about is callee vs. caller cleanup of the call stack. Changing the rust calling convention post-1.0 would break the ABI, so it would be very inconvenient.

In several posts on the TCO, one of the points against supporting TCO was that it involves using a slower calling convention, but I was unable to find any benchmark to support that statement.

Where can I find some discussions about the [dis]advantages of the different calling conventions and what design choices led to the current one?

I would like to evaluate the performance (speed, code size) impact of changing the calling convention. What would be the best way to do this? Is there any "well-known" benchmark for changes that affect the overall behavior of the compiler?I would assume that rustc itself is probably one of the most interesting "real-world" applications written in rust right now. Otherwise, is the compiler shootout challenge sufficiently interesting for this purpose?

The decision seems to be that it is an interesting feature, but that it should be postponed for a future release.

To me this looks like a good point, but I'm worried about potential backward-compatibility hazards.

In particular, the "be" keyword has been removed from the language and the proposed alternative ("become") has never been introduced. Wouldn't it be easier to ensure backward compatibility if the "become" keyword was at reserved in rust 1.0?

Another thing I'm worried about is callee vs. caller cleanup of the call stack. Changing the rust calling convention post-1.0 would break the ABI, so it would be very inconvenient.

In several posts on the TCO, one of the points against supporting TCO was that it involves using a slower calling convention, but I was unable to find any benchmark to support that statement.

Where can I find some discussions about the [dis]advantages of the different calling conventions and what design choices led to the current one?

I would like to evaluate the performance (speed, code size) impact of changing the calling convention. What would be the best way to do this? Is there any "well-known" benchmark for changes that affect the overall behavior of the compiler?I would assume that rustc itself is probably one of the most interesting "real-world" applications written in rust right now. Otherwise, is the compiler shootout challenge sufficiently interesting for this purpose?

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa)

That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa)

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

On 2014-12-27 19:13, Evan G wrote:
> A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community.
>
> And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list
> (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently,
> don't batch emails, stuff like that)

... unless you're using GMANE which is one of the few remaining *sane*
ways of handling dozens of mailing lists AFAICT. In contrast to mailing
lists it doesn't seem feasible to keep up with dozens of online forums
since they a) mostly run different software, i.e. usually
non-mail-friendly, and b) I cannot get a unified interface to all the
forums I would need to if all the mailing lists I'm currently following
were to be converted to forums.

I fully recognize that this isn't likely to convince anyone who isn't
used to the awesome that is GMANE/NNTP, but I just want to point out
what a shame it is that we're going ever-closer to siloization of the
"debate/discussion" format (and content!) when we actually have a
reasonably good technology to avoid it (NNTP) -- just out of apathy
and/or laziness on the part of forum software users *and*
vendors/implementers. :(

Re: Tail call compatibility

> The abi is allowed to change post 1.0. If it wasn't, we'd be stuck with
> cdecl forever and that sucks.
>
> I've only seen fastcall used for intracrate leaf calls.
>
> Servo and rustc are the two biggest rust projects.
>
> The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on
> discuss.rust-lang.org instead.
>
> If you plan on playing with calling convention, aatch and I (cgaebel)
> have been considering a rust-specific one. You should drop by on irc
> some time if it interests you!
>
> Happy to help,
> - Clark

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

I don't think so -- talking about killing the mailing list in a place mailing-list-only community members won't see it sounds a little like something from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That said, i'm open to hearing the arguments for it

Tom

And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that)

That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa)

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

On 2014-12-27 22:12, [hidden email] wrote:
> El Dec 27, 2014, a las 13:13, Evan G <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
>> A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community.
>>
>
> I don't think so -- talking about killing the mailing list in a place mailing-list-only community members won't see it sounds a little like something from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That said, i'm open to hearing the arguments for it
>

I think Kafka beat our beloved Doglas by a few years, but yeah. Pretty
weird to not mention it to the people who you'd imagine cared the most.

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread.

My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development & design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques.

If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that "mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh" and occasional IRC questions.

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist most probably means I will not participate any more.

I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about this reason too.

I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread.

My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development & design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques.

If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that "mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh" and occasional IRC questions.

I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist most probably means I will not participate any more.

I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about this reason too.

I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread.

My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development & design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques.

If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that "mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh" and occasional IRC questions.

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

On Mon, 2014-12-29 at 13:02 -0800, Kevin Cantu wrote:
> It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a
> try.

That still loses you the thread structure of email discussion. I also
can't start threads via the mail interface, and the mail interface
regularly eats whole replies by people who are optimistic enough to to
use it like nmatsakis. People can also edit their posts to append more
information and I don't believe the mail interface would inform me of
that.

Also the settings page in Discourse invariably says " We'll only email
you if we haven't seen you in the last 10 minutes and you haven't read
the thing we're emailing you about. " which doesn't give me much
confidence that I'm not somehow missing messages after following links
on irc or wherever.
>
> It had gotten pretty clear that having a catch-all mailing list wasn't
> going to scale.

It also doesn't scale for people to come to terms with a separate web
based discussion forum for each project they keep up with or contribute
to.

Many projects use multiple mailing lists, it's not clear to me why that
doesn't address the rust team's requirements.

-ben

>
> Kevin
>
> On Dec 29, 2014 10:57 AM, "Dmitry Romanov" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love
> configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it
> is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist
> most probably means I will not participate any more.
>
> I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet
> connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is
> the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about
> this reason too.
>
> On Dec 29, 2014 7:22 PM, "Paul Nathan"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly
> certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even
> understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust
> discourse besides happening once upon it and reading
> the linked thread.
>
> My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and
> segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices
> without extra signing up or poking at badly designed
> websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet
> *another* website signup, and probably with less
> usability, given my experience of web site development
> & design. It's worth noting that every single libre
> software project I have any interest in (from the
> arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as
> the primary official channel of communiques.
>
>
> If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will
> probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) )
> and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I
> don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part
> due to the fact that "mobile website = awful, readers
> = ehhh" and occasional IRC questions.
>
>
> I am sure I sound like a crabby crank, but, meh.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Clark Gaebel
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There was a thread about it on... Discourse!
>
> http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi
> Pieviläinen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > The mailing list is mostly dead BTW.
> Consider bringing this up on
> > discuss.rust-lang.org instead.
>
> This is the first time I've heard of
> that. I checked that it isn't
> even linked on the homepage, but the
> mailing list and IRC are.
>
> Have I missed something, or should the
> discourse then be linked
> instead of or at least in addition of
> the mailing list?
>
> --
> Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504
> A: Because it disrupts the natural way
> of thinking.
> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
> _______________________________________________
> Rust-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rust-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rust-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rust-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev>
> _______________________________________________
> Rust-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a try.

I've set up Discourse this way. As a Gmail user, this is mostly fine as a mailing list replacement, but I can see (as a former mutt user) how mutt users who are used to being able to see the structure of threaded conversations would get annoyed, as Discourse publishes a flat message list.

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Cantu <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give
> > it a try.
>
> I've set up Discourse this way. As a Gmail user, this is mostly fine
> as a mailing list replacement, but I can see (as a former mutt user)
> how mutt users who are used to being able to see the structure of
> threaded conversations would get annoyed, as Discourse publishes a
> flat message list.

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

> On 2014-12-27 19:13, Evan G wrote:
> > A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust
> > community.
> >
> > And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a
> > mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if
> > you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that)
>
> ... unless you're using GMANE which is one of the few remaining
> *sane* ways of handling dozens of mailing lists AFAICT. In contrast
> to mailing lists it doesn't seem feasible to keep up with dozens of
> online forums since they a) mostly run different software, i.e.
> usually non-mail-friendly, and b) I cannot get a unified interface
> to all the forums I would need to if all the mailing lists I'm
> currently following were to be converted to forums.
>
> I fully recognize that this isn't likely to convince anyone who
> isn't used to the awesome that is GMANE/NNTP, but I just want to
> point out what a shame it is that we're going ever-closer to
> siloization of the "debate/discussion" format (and content!) when we
> actually have a reasonably good technology to avoid it (NNTP) --
> just out of apathy and/or laziness on the part of forum software
> users *and* vendors/implementers. :(

Re: Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]

On 29.12.2014 22:02, Kevin Cantu wrote:
> It had gotten pretty clear that having a catch-all mailing list wasn't
> going to scale.

Python also uses mailing lists as the primary communication medium. The
main three lists are: python-dev (for developers, discussing the advance
of the language), python-ideas (for anyone, suggesting and discussing
ideas which the devs might take into account) and python-list (for
anyone, discussing about any python-specific issue). Of these, only
python-list is *very* high traffic with very diverse topics.
python-ideas is also high traffic but only with a few topics going on at
a given time. This makes it easy to mentally filter and follow what
happens. Same goes for python-dev, but it generally has less traffic
than python-ideas.

For several topics there exist sublists (e.g. the C++ special interest
group), which are generally very low to medium traffic.

I cannot see why rust would not be able to follow this approach, too,
but instead suggesting people to use $website [1]. *That* is not going
to scale, for the individuals. It is trivial to track several projects
using a well-configured mailbox or mail client, but polling N websites
every M minutes (for varying values of M) is quite cumbersome.

I say that having tested the discourse mail interface for a few days
now. I find it much harder to read than a well-behaved mailing list. It
is basically 100% top-posting without threading. Very uncomfortable to
read and follow.

But who am I to complain. I am merely interested in a new upcoming
language and have not much to contribute.

regards,
jwi

[1]: Not to mention that that website requires unauthentictaed
JavaScript from third party servers for log in.