S: …that is to say, what I planned
is this. As I explained to you, my project is above all to get to know the
thoughts of the workers.
O: Of the workers.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: That's it. So, we did one part of that at the factory.
O: Yes.
S: Because, where are the thoughts of a worker? At his work.
O: Yes.
S: Right?
O: Yes.
S: But then he goes home, he is in his house, and has his life.
O: Yes.
S: Mm. What matter at the factory is gone. He forgets that factory. Like
all of us, we will do our work and then we are going to forget about our
work.
O: Yes.

S: So to start with, Baba, where
were you born?
O: I was born in Nkulu. Malemba Nkulu.
S: Malemba Nkulu?
O: Yes.
S: (In the town) of Malemba Nkulu?
O: No, in Mulongo.
S: Mulongo. Is that a village?
O: (The place of) that chief Mulongo.
S: Mulongo.
O: Yes.
S: Of course, is'nt this a village there, close to Kikondja?
O: If you pass Kikondja you get to Malemba Nkulu.
S: Yes.
O: Then you get to Mulomba. But Mulomba is part of Malemba Nkulu territory.
S: I see. What year (were you born)?
O: 1930.
S: So it was 1930?
O: Yes.

S: Mm. You're getting to be an
old man [laughs]1, you are older than me.
So, alright, that is where you were born.
O: Yes.
S: An did you lived there for a long time?
O: I lived there and went t
O: school for a short time.
S: To elementary school?
O: Elementary.
S: At the Mission?
O: Yes, at the Mission in Malemba.
S: Malemba.
O: At boarding school.
S: Yes.

O: Then…
S: And then you went to get (interruption) then you went -- so you were
growing up…
O: Yes. So, then I was eighteen.
S: Mm.
O: I began to work for the Union Minière.
S: Work for the Union Minière at Luena.
O: At Luena, yes.
S: Ah yes, there at the coal mine.
O: Yes, it was…
S: How did they recruit you?
O: What?
S: They recruited you, or?
O: Yes they used to …?... (I was still) a child. Then I was told you are
not up to this sort of work. Day labor, because….
S: What was the procedure in those days? Did they come to the village, did
you go to an office, or (how did it go)?
O: No, they used to come to the village.
S: Those people of the Union Minière?
O: Yes.
S: I see.
O: We were just picked up.
S: So they came…
O: And we were the ones who went to the village.2
S: I see, so they went to the chief's place.
O: Yes.
S: I see.
O: Yes.

S: Then you joined (the Union
Minière) at Luena, and you stayed at Luena…
O: For a month, just about a month.
S: For seven months.3
O: No, not seven (months), just a bit.
S: A bit.
O: Yes.
S: Mm.
O: It turned out that the work was hard, I was just a child. We were not
up to that sort of work, so they put us in jail and sent us to Kolwezi…
S: What kind of work (were you supposed to do)?
O: (Work in) the mine.
S: In the mine.
O: Mm.
S: In the coal (mine)?
O: In the coal mine, yes.

S: What do we say for coal in
Swahili?
O: Makala. Makala.
S: Even for the coal that come from the ground?
O: All (kinds are called) makala.
S: In the old times, did people know this kind of coal that comes from the
ground, the one they produce at…
O: Really long ago? No.
S: Just coal made from wood.
O: From wood.
S: From firewood, yes.
O: Right, not the other kind.4
S: No.
O: (The other kind) wa
S: unknown.5

S: Fine. So you started at Luena,
then they -- what is the word?
O: Transfer [in French].
S: Transfer.
O: Yes, they transferred us here to Kolwezi.
S: At the Gécamines?
O: At the Gécamines?6 Now, our group -
we were bachelors, some of them children --was assigned quarters in Kolwezi
to stay out of trouble. (That was in 19)50.
S: Yes.
O: At Kolwezi there was no place to stay yet, only at Musonoi where they
kept building tiny houses.
S: I see.
O: This was part of Trabeka.7
S: Yes.8 And the workers' settlement at
Kolwezi was not built yet.
O: Not yet. There were just those really small houses of the olden days.
I saw all this being built. The sent us to a small workers' settlement,
it was there on that side.
S: On that side.
O: On the side, over there.
S: I see.

O: And then they made us leave
there. Now you bachelors move to Ruwe (they said). So we were to stay in
Ruwe.
S: Mm.
O: Now we arrived in Ruwe, the houses there were worthless. And then they
really made us t
O: work, in the factory. The houses there were different, they …(at any
rate) I got there safely.
S: Mm.
O: It was near where the missionaries lived.
S: Over there in Ruwe?
O: (In) Ruwe.
S: Yes, I see.
O: Right inside the mine, at the place of work.
S: Yes, I see.
O: That is where they put us into those houses. We, the bachelors, simply
slept where we worked.
S: [incredulous] Where did you sleep?
O: Just in the house there, in the houses at the place of work.
S: Ah, alright.
O: Not in a camp (workers' settlement). That's how houses were assigned.
There were houses…
S: Wooden dwellings, or?
O: No, (they were) metal (constructions).
S: (Made of) metal.
O: Yes.

S: Mm. Alright. So you had this
job at Ruwe.
O: Yes.
S: For how long, how many months…
O: For three years.
S: Three years?
O: Yes.
S: Always in the mine.
O: No, (also) also in the laverie (where the ore is washed).9
S: The laverie.
O: Yes.
S: So that was your work.
O: Yes.
S: So you were (something like)an unskilled worker, or?
O: I took measurements (instrument readings) because that was where (ore10
and) water were mixed.
S: Mm.
O: Yes, it was to monitor weight so that the ore would have the proper weight.
I measured the density, the kind of weight. We had a writing pad.
S: Yes.
O: We wrote it down and then it would be looked at they might say that the
weight was rising. If it was the water they would begin to send a lot of
ore.
S: Yes, I see.
O: After that I first worked with the pipe-fitters.
S: Pipe-fitters?
O: Yes, and then they took us away (from that crew).
S: So at that time, your cote (ranking) was?
O: Then I had cote six.
S: Six.
O: Yes.
S: That's it. Six.
O: Mm.
S: Six.
O: Six.11

S: Mm. And then you went on. After
you left Ruwe where did you go?
O: The made me go back to Luena.
S: You went back to Luena?
O: Yes.
S: I see.
O: I went back once again to Luena.
S: The had you transferred, right?
O: Ah, it was because I kept asking for it. Working the night shift, well,
that was too much for me. So the made trouble (for me). Then you just go
there, the place where you stared to work. It's in you files.
S: Mm.
O: They are going to take a good look at how (to deal with your problem).
S: Mm.
O: We went to Luena. When I got to Luena I was told to work. I worked just
for a month; (it was) useless. Then I was told, you are going to the Kolwezi
area.
S: Mm.

O: We are sending you on to Kolwezi.
When we arrived there they said: You are going to Métalkat.12
S: Was this when Métalkat was started?
O: Métalkat was started in 1953.
S: And (it was still) small?
O: Mm.
S: And they were doing construction work, right?
O: Yes. They …?... were building. We began with to prepare everything, the
ditches, we…
S: So you were at Métalkat before (production) began…
O: Work (the plant) had not opened yet.
S: I see, the plant had not opened yet.
O: Yes.
S: I see.
O: We went to work with other13 Europeans
and continued with the for a while.
S: And you got housing.
O: (You mean) house here (where we are now)? Yes, we got housing here.
S: Here…
O: At Métalkat.
S: In this camp?
O: Yes.
S: It was already…
O: Yes, the houses were already finished.
S: I see.
O: Right in this part, there were houses. This Avenue..,
S: Yes.
O: Tanganika, and this other street, what was it again?
S: Yes.
O: You could see it (lit. it was visible) (from here)…?...
S: Yes. Yes, I see it.
O: There were houses.

S: Mm. You see, [making another
start], alright, so then you went on (to stay) for a long time. (Was this
in 19) 54?
O: We got here in '53.
S: I see, already in '53.
O: Yes. And then came '54 and so we continued until now.
S: What kinds of work did you do at the beginning?
O: In the beginning we worked - when we got here there was only one kind
of work in this place. That was when we began to cut, to make mapoupées14
with Mister Jules.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. We were setting up mabonpon.
S: Yes.
O: We were setting up things in this place where the mabonpon were.
S: Yes.

O: After that they sent us to
(another) place where we began to work on the ditches.
S: The ditches there…
O: The ditches to lay the cables for electricity.
S: Yes.
O: And other ditches for…
S: Digging ditches.
O: Yes, digging other ditches for the water supply.
S: Yes.

O: The we did this - the took
some (of the workers) away, other stayed with this work. So they took us
away. I was transferred from there and put among the plumbers.
S: Among the plumbers?
O: Right.
S: I see.
O: We were placing the metal sheets in the electrolysis shop.
S: Right.
O: Yes, we were setting up the…
S: …cathodes anodes…
O: We were setting them up.
S: Yes.
O: This went on for quite a while until this work was finished.
S: Finished.

O: Then, from there I was transferred
to the plant itself. Over there, to the "water."15
S: I see.
O: Yes, to that place.
S: That is to say the side of the plant were you work now. They…
O: Then they, then we left the plumbers' crew there. [takes a moment to
light a cigarette]
S: Yes, so you left the plumbers' crew.
O: Yes.
S: How is that called? (To work as a plumber) is "shop work" or?
O: Shop (work), yes.
S: Yes. And where you work now, what is it called?
O: No, the place (where I work) now, that is a different kind of work.
S: No, no, (I mean) the work you are doing now.
O: Yes,
S: That is what kind of work? The work?
O: With "water."
S: With "water?" O Yes,
S: [laughs] Because (that is where) water is made to run through.
O: Yes.
S: I see.

O: Then they took me away from
there and sent me to the mechanics shop. They gave me European (supervisor),
Lucien. He is (now) in the electrolysis shop.
S: Yes. Lucien?
O: Yes, but (at that time) we worked with him in the mechanics shop.
S: Oh, right.
O: Mm.
S: Mm.
O: Next he let me work as a welder.
S: A welder.
O: Right. What we did was to work where the filters are, those filters of
ours.
S: Yes, so that's what you did?
O: We were welding.
S: The filter, what is it called, Oliver?
O: The Oliver filter, yes.
S: Yes.
O: Right, with Mister Lucien.
S: Mm.
O: We used to carry the gas bottles. One could not work with them downstairs.
We used to carry the bottle from this storage place.
S: Yes.
O: On our shoulders. To carry them up the stairs was killing us.
S: The bottle (was so heavy)?
O: And how.
S: I see.

O: The weight… Then I noticed
that his work was getting on my eyes. When I came back to the camp, I did
not sleep. Because….
S: Because of what?
O: Because the flame (welding arc) was very hot.
S: This flame…
O: This electrical (arc), yes. So I begged this boss (to let me work elsewhere).
But the answer was No. He refused ...?... we simply had to do all kinds
of work.
S: Did you have (protective) goggles?
O: Goggles - only the (master) welder, the European (lit. "Mister himself").
Because they way it was in those days, many Africans did not know yet how
to weld, only the European.
S: Is that so?
O: We - the would take a person and tell him this is how you do it. Ah,
ts, ts [making a sound of regret or disapproval). I told the bos
S: I don't know, this is no good. No way (was his answer).
S: Mm.
O: Then (when I insisted) day after day, they agreed, saying: Only when
we see someone else (who can replace you).
S: Mm.
O: Someone else was brought to us and we exchanged (places). So I was taken
away and sent to the place where I am now.

O: In the beginning I did ordinary
work, then I was given the tasks of a foreman. I began to substitute for
the foreman who used to be there. What I did was work with (all) my strength
and intelligence.
S: Yes.
O: …?...
S: It was tough. (But) I began to substitute for the foreman. When he was
sick they told me: You are going to replace him.
S: Mm.
O: So there was no taking it easy, we all worked (hard). My foreman was
Picot.
S: In that place, who was foreman at the time?
O: Picot was the foreman.
S: Picot.
O: Yes. Samukonga had left (when his got his) pension.
S: Ah, alright.
O: Samukonga had been there.
S: Mm.
O: Samukonga, yes. He had retired.
S: I see.
O: But (then) Picot left…

S: Picot, was he a European?
O: No, he was a black man.
S: Picot?
O: Yes.
S: With a name like that? Picot? A Belgian name?
O: [laughs] He was a black man.
S: Picot.
O: Picot.
S: Was that his Christian name, or? Just Picot?
O: I don't know. But, no… S; Or was he maybe an Angolan?
O: An Angolan, yes. No, he was a Congelese.
S: Yes?
O: Yes. Not only that, he came from our country.
S: I see. Malemba Nkulu?
O: Malemba Nkulu, yes.
S: In Lubumbashi I once met someone (who came from there). There was someone
at our anthropology department who worked there.
O: I see.
S: Nkulu Richard, he is the son of the Chief (of Malemba Nkulu).
O: Of the chief.
S: (Chief) Nkulu. And he was to be the successor when his father died. Bit
he refused (to take the office). So now a brother of his followed (Chief)
Nkulu.

Alright, so then they made you16
foreman?
O: Yes.
S: What year was that?
O: I got the job of foreman with all rights and privileges when I became
foreman of the filtration section.
S: Mm.
O: After that I worked there at the pachuca17
in the leaching section. Someone else was the foreman there.
S: Mm.
O: And then, in '60, in '60, they made me a supervisor (lit.general foreman).
S: Yes.
O: Because we used to make us….
S: Ah, yes, supervisor.
O: They …?...

S: Now, who is the foreman of
filtration in your team? Ngongo?
O: Ngongo, yes.
S: And do you have another foreman?
O: We have another one.
S: Who is this?
O: Kayembe Roland. (You don't know him) because you have seen him.
S: No, no. He has been away on vacation. Kayembe.
O: Yes. Right.

S: Alright then. These were things
about work I needed to know but now - it has been twenty years now.
O: Yes.
S: That you have been living here in the camp.
O: Yes.
S: Now, as you see it, in your eyes, how do you see this life in a camp?
O: The way I see my life in the camp, my life in the camp now is not what
it used to be long ago.
S: No. How is it different?
O: The difference is in the way (it feels) to live here, it's not the same.
It is those…
S: It is different in what?19
O: It is different.
S: Yes, but how?
O: Because - (compared to how) we used to be in the old days.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. When I was still very young there were others, old timers of MÉTALKAT.
One would pay them respect, one would know…
S: Pay (what)?
O: Pay (them) respect.
S: Respect, Yes.
O: Yes.
S: That's what they used to do in the old days.
O: Yes. Every European would know this person is a newcomer and when you
explain things to him he will understand, he will know how (things work).
Yes, (this person would say) this is how it works. Nowadays, ah, it's just
plain stupid work.
S: Plain stupid work?
O: Stupid, yes. Because, nowadays, someone may be a newcomer, he doesn't
know yet what MÉTALKAT was about, what the people (did who used to work)
here. He may get to replace a European.
S: Mm.
O: He, he hears this and that and goes to work right a way without knowing
what it is about.
S: Yes.
O: Some of the older ones, those whom we replaced, ah, they did not work
like that.
S: Mm.

O: (This is how it is) now (lit.
this year).
S: Mm.
O: No way, nowadays we see that the situation in the company is no longer
what we had earlier.
S: Yes.
O: This company has become something like an arm of the government.
S: Yes.
O: It is the government that dictates how things are run….
S: It's like bulamatari (the colonial state).
O: Yes, like bulamatari.
S: In other words, the company is after its own interest (lit. stays on
its side)…as you see it is like…
O: Many of us think that this is the case.
S: Like they abandoned you.
O: A, yes. As we see it the company abandoned us. Before, our situation
was quite good.
S: Yes.
O: Ah, the company, MÉTALKAT, would take responsibility (lit. know). When
someone (had a problem it would say): I am the one who takes care of the
problem, I am his bulamatadi.
S: Yes.
O: (The company) would know about the state of his house, about his children.
For a person to stay here - how was he to make it, what was he going to
eat? - it was MÉTALKAT, Picquet (the director) himself could do something
because he was informed.
S: Yes.
O: Bulamatadi, the state, doesn't know.
S: Yes.
O: Nowadays.

S: I your view, is what happens
now something bad?
O: Nowadays it is worse than bad.
S: Are no Europeans left who understand and like Africans? Are there none
of those left?
O: No, there are.
S: There are.
O: There are some…
S: But…
O: It is difficult (for them) to act accordingly.
S: I see.
O: An we come back to the Europeans. I think, without the European return,
we cannot do well. We are always the same…
S: Didn't your ancestors do well without Europeans?
O: What?
S: Didn't your ancestors do well without Europeans?
O: (Things are bad now) because we people20
are many.
S: Yes.
O: But there is little we know how to do. We run to bulamatadi
and that is to mess up things.

S: Still, if you - let's put it
like thi
S: You live here in the camp.
O: Yes.
S: Other live in the cité (township), or in Caroline (a squatters'
settlement).
O: Yes.
S: How does this differ in your view?
O: Differ?
S: Yes.
O: We are alright here. We are alright because we work.
S: Right, so living in a camp is better than living outside?
O: Living outside? (You mean) without working or if you work?
S: No, no let's take an example.
O: Yes.
S: You live in the place where you work.
O: Yes.
S: Now, if you were to build…
O: (Build) a house there.
S: A house in the cité or in Caroline.
O: I see.
S: Would this be better.
O: This would be better. It would be better.
S: (Than) this here?
O: Living there, if I had a house…
S: Yes.
O: … would be better.
S: It would be better.
O: Yes. Because those people live well there. We stay in a camp.
S: Yes.
O: That is - how shall I say?-we are like in a prison because…
S: I a prison.

O: Yes. In many ways, the person
who leaves for the other side… [makes a new start] It used to be that (life)
was very good in a camp.
S: Mm.
O: Nowadays this is no longer the case. The person who is going to leave
for the other side is going to make trouble for him. He is only going to
see after his (own interests). Yes. And there is no one any more who is
interested in the company, (the way it used to be in the times of) Picquet.
O: Or is it because they don't know better? I don't know. ? He does not
refuse. And he is going to say: That is what the government says.21
S: Yes.
O: Yes. It did not use to be like that. (Nowadays) the changachanga22
(camp manager) comes to this place as a representative of the government…
S: Mm.
O: … that means trouble. Everything must be authorized.
S: Wasn't is fine (when Mr.) Houyet (used to be camp manager)?
O: Houyet was very good (with) everyone…
S: But isn't he a severe person?23
O: (He is) very good.
S: I know him.
O: He - we worked with him here for many years. We lived quietly24
with other people. People had strength and if they kept their strength this
was due to Houyet.
S: Really?
O: He was tough but how were we going to soften him? Because work was hard
(we had to respect him).
S: Did he speak Swahili?
O: His Swahili…
S: (Did he speak) Swahili well?
O: No [laughs], no. (His) Swahili wasn't good.
S: No [laughs].
O: [laughs] (His) Swahili wasn't good.
S: Then how did he manage when it came to settling palavers?
O: About settling (palavers) - he used to make his decision very fast. Even
if you did not understand (lit. it was above your head). You would come
(to discuss)…
S: (Was it faster) then now? Nowadays it takes….
O: If you did not understand well (what he said)…
S: Mm.
O: …you would just listen and he would say: There is nothing (to discuss),
I make the decision (lit. I speak) and that's it. You are going to figure
it out for yourself. He would just think (about the matter) and settle your
affair if you whether you were wrong or right. There you were, and you would
go back to work.
S: And he knew the people….
O: He really know everyone, everyone.
S: Mm. Yes, well, I know him, I know him, we used to stay in his house.
He went on leave, you understand? And we guarded his house in Lubumbashi.
This was recently, before I arrived (here).
O: Houyet.
S: Willy [laughs].

S: Fine, now the thing I want
to ask about is language as I already asked you whether he (Houyet) spoke
Swahili well.
O: Yes.
S: First lets start once again with your life.
O: Yes.
S: So, during childhood you only spoke Kiluba, right?
O: During my childhood?
S: Yes. (What was the language) after you were born and began to speak?
O: I see. I only spoke Kiluba.
S: Only Kiluba?
O: Yes, only Kiluba.
S: No other language?
O: No.
S: Only Kiluba.
O: Only Kiluba.
S: Maybe (also) Swahili?
O: Swahili only now and then, not really, when other people came to us.
S: Yes.
O: You would chat with a stranger (in Swahili).
S: But you understood it already (as a child)?
O: Yes I did.
S: Yes.
O: Right.

S: And then you went to school?
O: Yes.
S: At what did you learn at school?
O: Only Swahili.
S: Only Swahili.
O: Yes.
S: Proper, grammatical Swahili?
O: Yes, we only had grammatical Swahili.
S: I see. Throughout school, you did the first grade…
O: I did the first grade and moved on to fourth grade.
S: Fourth grade.
O: Yes.
S: And in fourth grade you studied only…
O: Only in French.
S: Not in French?
O: Only in French.
S: In French…
O: Yes.
S: You began in which grade?
O: In second grade.
S: In second grade?
O: Yes.
S: So then in first grade it was only Swahili.
O: Just Swahili.
S: But in second grade you began with…
O: …a little French.
S: A little French.

Mm. Then you grew up and went
looking for work.
O: Work, yes.
S: Did you learn other language(s)?
O: No other language(s), no.
S: So now, how many languages can you speak?
O: No (not many).
S: Just…
O: Just Swahili.
S: Swahili?
O: Yes.
S: French?
O: Ah, I don't know French.
S: Oh, but you understand it?
O: Ah, not really.
S: A little.
O: I don't really understand it well.
S: It's the same with me.25
O: I simply did not have the head for it. Because compared to others with
whom we were at the same school - when it came to passing exams I was ahead
of them.
S: Yes.
O: Yes, but when it came to speaking French I did not speak it fluently,
unlike those who were behind me…
S: Yes, I know, I also…?...
O: … they spoke it, I didn't.
S: I worked at it for a long time, but [laughs].
O: When it came to passing exams I was up there (with the best), even in
French as long as it was written. This one spoke (it well) but wrote it
badly, I did not speak but I wrote it well.
S: Yes.
O: I got lots of point in French.
S: Yes.
O: Without know (how to speak) French well.
S: Yes.
O: The one who spoke French well would flunk, I would pass.

S: So get along with Swahili and
Kiluba.
O: An Kiluba.
S: Here in the house, your own house, what is the language you speak?
O: Only Kiluba.
S: Only Kiluba. With the children?
O: With the children is Kiswahili.
S: Kiswahili. Don't the understand Kiluba?
O: There mother speaks it and she speaks (to them) only in Kiluba. They
understand. As to speaking…94
S: No.
O: No. I tell (a child something) in Kiluba he will understand. But speak….
S: Couldn't you understand other languages? Like Tshiluba?
O: Yes (i.e. no) we are not going to understand it.
S: I see, but that is to say ….26
O: Speaking (Tshiluba), let's say…
S: A little.
O: A little.
S: Just as a joke.
O: Yes, That happens. And speaking it a little bit.

S: And how do you see it in the
workplace? At first it must be difficult to understand each other with people
from different ethnic groups.
S: The there are the Europeans. Right?
O: Yes.
S: How many Europeans speak Swahili well?
O: A European who speaks Swahili well there (in the workplace)? There are
some (lit. there is).
S: There are some, but who?
O: François Cahier.
S: Cahier.
O: Yes, and Joseph Wijnen.
S: Wijnen.
O: Yes.
S: Cahier speaks it well?
O: Very well. Very well, (as does) Joseph Wijnen…
S: And then this Greek, eh [searching for the name]…
O: Yes.
S: Haji…
O: Hajinicolao.
S: Mm?
O: He speaks it well.
S: But all of them were born here, or not?
O: Were they born here? Were they born here? Except Cahier, François Cahier,
I don't know exactly whether (he came) when he was a child or whether he
was born here.
S: Yes.
O: Yes.
S: Yes, but do you see others who speak about as well as I do?
O: No.
S: No.
O: When you speak (lit. your voice) it is better than those other.
S: Ah, now way.
O: And how.
S: Come on, I still have an accent [laughs].
O: Well, that [laughs]…
S: I still have an accent.
O:…?...
S: What about this friend of mine, Dassas?
O: Dassas?
S: Yes.
O: Dassas speaks it well.
S: He makes an effort and tries. He tries.
O: Above all, as we see it, it is often the engineers who pick up Swahili
faster than the…
S: The bosses…
O: The Europeans at work.27 The engineers
can speak (Swahili) in no time, I don't what (the reason) is.
S: They make an effort.
O: When they speak Swahili with you are going to understand (them). When
such a person tells you (something) you listen.
S: And nowadays, the young (engineers), like Verbois….
O: Verbois?
S: Or Dexters?
O: Well…?...
S: They don't speak (Swahili), do they? How are they going to converse with
the people?
O: It's difficult. [returning to list of competent speakers] Like Vercouters.
S: Yes, he speaks (Swahili)…
O: Very well.
S: Because he is an old-timer.
O: An old-timer. [laughs]
S: So then…
O: Also Picquet, he speaks it well.
S: Picquet spoke28 (Swahili)?
O: He spoke it very well.
S: When he spoke to a person he would understand it very well. There would
be nothing you didn't catch.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: Mm.
O: He spoke it very well.

S: Mm. As you said, you have been
here for a long time, twenty years. Did you notice that Swahili developed
- how shall I put it? - that it changed?
S: Swahili?
O: The kind of Swahili I started out with was left behind, I picked up another
kind. Because the one I knew was the (the Swahili that was spoken) at school.
S: Yes.
O: It was a the refined sort of Swahili.
S: Which you gave up.
O: I gave it up. I adapted to the situation…
S: Could you still speak (the refined sort)?
O: Not really.
S: No.
O: I would speak a bit but you wouldn't keep it up.
S: Yes, but when you hear it, let's say, on the radio?
O: On the radio? Yes. I understand it. On the radio I'll understand it.
I understand it/
S: So, you said that you picked up this other kind of Swahili. In what way
did differ? Different from what?
O: Well, it just differed from the one we used to speak.
S: How did it differ?
O: In many things.
S: Yes, but (is the difference) that it is easy to….
O: This (Swahili) we speak is easy. But, speaking of easy, (I should say)
when I want to speak good Swahili it doesn't come easy.
S: Mm.
O: Ah, (when I try it) I am no longer fluent.

S: Mm. So, perhaps you stay here
-- no, how shall I say it? Right, those other people who live here in the
region, mm?
O: Yes.
S: They speak their special kind of Swahili, right?
O: Mm.
S: When you hear it (spoken) can you understand all of them?
O: All of them
S: All of them.
O: All of them.
S: A far as I am concerned, I find it difficult. Let me explain. First of
all, I find it difficult to understand the young people. Eh?
O: Yes.
S: By young people I mean children who are sixteen or fourteen.
O: Ah, that is difficult.
S: Even for you?
O: Yes.
S: And you, will you understand….
O: I am going to understand it nevertheless because I got around before
I settled down.
S: That's it. And another kind it the Swahili of the women. Ah, when they
speak…
O: It's hard.
S: Too much (for me).

So, when you think about it how
do see (what is going to happen) in the future, in times to come.
O: Yes.
S: May they will speak French at the factory?
O: I think so.
S: All of them.
O: All of them.
S: They will abandon Swahili?
O: They will.
S: That's how you see it?
O: Yes, that's what I think.
S: And right now, are they beginning to drop Swahili?
O: I see that they are dropping Swahili.
S: Who, the people or the Europeans?
O: The Europeans.
S: The Europeans are dropping Swahili.
O: They are in the process of doing this, yes.
S: But the people, are they also going to do this?
O: I don't know.
S: Mm.
O: Even the people are going to abandon (Swahili) as the years go by.
S: Yes.
O: It is possible that they'll do it. I see that the Europeans are abandoning
(Swahili).

S: There is something else I wanted
to ask. Now it's about your thoughts, especially about work. We see all
sorts of work we have (here in the factory). (You noticed) how I went around
(with workers) everywhere and then also with you… Fine, but what I really
want to ask i
S: We human beings here on earth, what will we work for?
O: For …
S: What is the meaning of work?
O: The meaning of work?
S: Mm.
O: As far as I am concerned I know it is about living, about eating, having
a good time. I am going on to (find) joy so that I can live well.
S: Mm.
O: Then, the I get ahead with my family…
S: Mm.
O: If I work hard I am going to earn good money and that means that my family,
my children will stay alive, my children will live well.
S: I see.
O: This what I work for.
S: That's it. That is the meaning of…
O: Ah, yes.
S: …of work.
O: Yes. Eat, feel well.

S: Yes. But there are different
kinds of work. Sometimes it is work - (let's tale) the work you are doing.
O: Yes.
S: Do you see it as good or bad work. Let's put it like thi
S: Does it not come to your mind that you could be an office worker.
O: Yes.
S: Would you like that?
O: Me? It' been on my mind.
S: Yes.
O: I like (the idea but) I see no way I can leave (the work I do now) and
be a clerk because I cannot write (well).
S: Yes.
O: So I am not going to consider this.
S: Mm. So what you consider is only…
O: … only my heavy work, my strong arms.
S: People (who) work with their hands - is this respectable? Or…
O: There are those who regard (such work) as worthless.
S: There are those who regard it as worthless?
O: Yes. Because a clerk who just works with (other) office workers will
treat of with contempt: You are just a worthless laborer.
S: Yes, but in you own thinking?
O: In my own thoughts?
S: Mm.
O: If I have my manual work I make my living. Are you going to…?... This
is what gives me joy in my home, I am not going to think about those (other
possibilities).

S: That's it. But if you were,
ah, it's just an example, right?
O: Yes.
S: I you were to become rich, (have) millions of Zaire, what then?
O: Yes.
S: (Just) as an example. Right, would you still have to work?
O: In that case I am (still) going to work.
S: But didn't make a million Zaire?
O: No, I am going to work. In my thoughts I am (still) going to work because
I have seen this.
S: Have you?
O: Because I have seen how those who are higher up do it.
S: Yes.
O: And I have seen those who made (a lot of money) like Picquet.
S: Mm.
O: They way we think he is very rich.
S: Mm.
O: Right. When I watch them (I see that) in the morning, as seven o'clock,
he goes to work.
S: Ah, yes but. Alright, that's what you see, but why? Why will a person
work even though he is rich?
O: (If he is) rich? Well.
S: Why is he going to work?
O: Well, he works.
S: Everyone must work?
O: He must work. You, go away. [to his child who is playing with the recorder]
S: Ah, wait. Say, sh [shushing the child]. Mm, and now he is going to fight
…?... with his brother. [pause] Alright then. So…
O: A person who is very rich will (still) work. I think it's like a habit.
S: Yes, yes. And do you have an idea how to get ahead at work? Are you going
to stay (where you are)? Now, you became a foreman.
O: Yes.
S: Mm. Is this….
O: Right now I may be trying to get ahead (but) I don't see how.
S: Mm.
O: Even though I may be trying, say, to earn (more), I know I have reached
the end because I don't have an education. I don't know what (else I could
do).
S: Mm.
O: Therefore I should do just what I am doing until my end and then I die,
that's it.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: [laughs]29

S: When you stop working, do you
think about going back to the village?
O: Ah, in my thoughts? (Not really) because I am so used to working.
S: Yes, but when the time comes to got you pension?
O: (Then) I go back to the village.
S: You go back to the village?
O: I go back to the village.
S: And no, if you would take your vacation would you go (there)?
O: Yes. I used to go (? every) two years. Now this year, because in the
place where I stay during my leave there is a lot of water and no road (to
get there), I will tried and asked that my leave be changed.
S: Ah, yes. Because it is hard to get there.
O: Right, they changed it so I can get my leave during the dry season.
S: Yes, during the time without….
O: Without rain.
S: Yes, I see. Probably you relatives who live in the village. When you
get there will you build (a house)?
O: Yes. Or if…
S: (And) are you going to farm?
O: Yes, I am going to farm.
S: I see.

Don't you (ever) think of staying
in town?
O: Ah well, there are no funds (to live on). If I do that and stay am I
not perhaps getting my children into a situation where they have to do things
like stealing? If we stay in town, feed them from my pension…
S: How many children do you have?
O: I have seven.
S: Seven. Some of the are already…
O:One is married here.
S: I see.
O: So now I have six (with me).
S: Ah, mm. [pause] So you will go back to the village?
O: I'll just go back to the village.
S: Why?
O: Because there is no capital.
S: Because (there is no) capital?
O: Yes.
S: To stay in town one must have be wealthy.
O: Wealthy, yes
S: But if you had the resources would you stay here.
O: Yes, (in that case) I could stay here. [pause]
S: Is life in the village good or is there suffering? Or (how is it)?
O: No, it is good because, although I am not rich you can farm and eat what
you produce.
S: Mm.
O: Yes, without looking left and right (asking yourself what) this or that
person does.

S: Yes, mm. As you see it, what
is at work that makes you suffer most?
O: What makes me suffer?
S: Every kind of work has its problems
O: Yes.
S: Its ways of making you suffer.
O: Yes.
S: Even my work, right? For instance right now my work is good, I feel good.
I can talk to people. But then I must go, close the door, and lead my solitary
life of writing, writing, writing. Many, many hours. That's what makes me
suffer. [laughs] Right?
O: Yes.
S: But every work had its hardships. How do you see this with the work you
do?
O: The work?
S: Yes, this work you do.
O: How I see it with my work? I know that every kind of work is good.
S: Yes.
O: When I wake up I wake up with strength because if I am late and just
hang about this is something that can get too much for me. With my work
it's the night shift, I work the night shift a lot.
S: That's it, this work in shifts.
O: The late shift (that starts at) 5.30 pm.
S: That is hard?
O: That is really hard, as I see it. I do the work, that's it.
S: Yes.
O: Where am I going to find another place (to work)?
S: Mm.
O: Those are the things that get to be too hard, as I see it.
S: Because of the cold…
O: (Fighting) sleepiness..
S: Sleepiness.
O: There are days when this gets too much.

S: Yes, but now about something
else: Don't you have problems getting along with others. We all are human
beings and sometimes we fight each other but…
O: Right.
S: As you see it at your work place, do you get along with each other?
O: Getting along with people - we understand each other.
S: Yes.
O: Because I know about mutual understanding, I worked with the Europeans
in the old times, I know what it was like (lit. I know the example). I worked
with the old foremen…
S: Mm.
O: I am in...[starts again] Say someone is made foreman nowadays. This will
not be like the foreman used to be in the old days. And the Europeans we
have…
S: How are they different?
O: For example, take those who made trouble for a European in the old days,
a person looking for trouble. (The European foreman) would think about it
first and find out: Has this person done something wrong on another day?
Has he done this before? Only the would begin to give him a hard time.
S: Mm.
O: That's no the way it is with (the foremen) nowadays.
S: Nowadays?
O: I a person mess up today, (the foreman) is going to get after him right
there, on the same day.
S: He writes a proposition…30
O: Yes.
S: Right there.
O: In the old days it did not use to be like that.
S: Why? What got lost?
O: I don't know. I don't know. That's when many a person realizes that things
were good in the old days.
S: Mm.
O: The way it is now, that's no good.
S: Mm.
O: (Compared to) how it was then.

S: And (the way things are done)
at the office of the changachanga.
O: Yes.
S: Is this different no?
O: Very much so, it is really different.
S: I see that, nowadays, it's like, well, I should not say anything.
O: Yes.
S: But I see it with my own eyes, they are very severe.
O: It really is different.
S: Yes.
O: The way matters are handled nowadays by the changachanga as
well as by the people. Whenever there is great pressure at work they now
longer know how to get a person involved at work, because they don't know
how to follow the old (company) regulations.

S: Mm. What about the friends
you have - you were taking a walk with a friend just now.
O: Yes.
S: Is this a friend (you made) at work or is it a friend because he is a
relative from the village, or?
O: No, (friendship means) to understand each other.
S: Understand each other?
O: Yes. There may be kinsmen from the same village with whom we don't get
along. I would not go (and visit) at his house. (Friendship is) to understand
each other. O1: [a woman's voice in the background] … baba Nseya/ baba Nseya
moyi31/
O1: Moyi.
S: Moyi. [laughs] But [sound of door being closed] but in your
view…
O1: Is he not in?
S: Now then, once more….
O: Ngoie, Ngoie.32
S: Is she calling you?
O: No, she is bringing…

[conversation outside between
the visitor and another woman]
S: The way you see it will there be some progress in understanding each
other with Europeans? How would this happen?
O: Mutual understanding with Europeans?
S: You said that it was good in the old days.
O: Yes.
S: Yes but, eh…[short interruption, visitor enters] is this not the first
time a European comes to your house? O1: baba Nseya.
O: What is it?
O1: Greetings to you.
S: Greetings, mama. O1: Baba Nseya, talk33
…
O: Ah, I …?...
O1: Are you teaching them? [laughs]
S: [laughs]
O1: [continues with comments in Luba] …eh?
S: [laughs] Did she say (something about a) preacher?
O: Because of (all the) talking [laughs] ...?...
S: Did she? Did she say preacher?
O: Mm.
S: But why?
O: Because I have been talking a lot.

S: Ah yes, well [laughs] but no,
let's go back to this.
O: Yes.
S: Is it not the first time a European comes (to your house)?
O: My house?
S: Someone who is not - perhaps a priest has been here, I don't know. Are
you a Christian?
O: I am a Christian but I don't go to mass.
S: You see. Do you look at (Christianity) as something European? Or?
O: No. Do I see it as something bad? Because there is another thing about
mass, I was34 -- my wife is a Christian
and so am I.
S: Yes, don't you see? How are we going to go on?
O: Just (going) ahead.
S: Take the past, you said that in the old days (things) were really find.
But the Europeans kept to their side and you to your side. As you see it,
was that a good situation?
O: No, it wasn't in the remote past. It was alright but - what it was, you
could settle your affairs. For instance, about this business about mass
and the priest we mentioned. I said that I am not going to mass because
- take how it used to be.
S: Mm.
O: Take my own children. When they were born you would go to the priest
and, without a lot of discussion and useless talk he would baptize a child
right away.
S: Mm.
O: It meant he was a Catholic.
S: Mm.
O: That's not how it is nowadays.
S: No? He refuses (to baptize the child right away).
O: Only after a lot of talking.
S: Mm.
O: (Discussing) things at length: Bring this, do this, do that [claps his
hands]. So eventually he would tell you (to come back) tomorrow, tomorrow
and that would cool you down in your soul and you forget what it was all
about (lit. about the rest).
S: I see.
O: Because in the old days the Europeans used to settle matters really fast.

S: Mm. Even I had to learn about
this because, alright, I lived for a long time there in the camp at the
time when I followed the Jamaa, right?
O: Right.
S: For the research I did.
O: Yes.
S: Research on the Jamaa. And I know (how it was). I was the very first
European to come to the homes of people. And the people felt (ill a ease),
telling themselve
S: Eh, what is he looking for, is he like a policeman, is he checking on
the house, what is this? That's no good. How are we going to come to mutual
understanding? Mm? And even in the old days - at work, yes. At work you
and the Europeans would see each other every single day. You would even
joke with them.
O: Yes.
S: And …?... But then you went home and that was the end of it.
O: Yes.

S: What is it that you are after
more than anything else?
O: Right now? More than anything else? Money.35
S: Just money?
O: Mm.
S: To keep going…
O: It's about money to get on, that is what makes us work.
S: Yes.
O: So that we can live well, eat well, get around well, and enjoy it.
S: That's it. Yes, I see. Fine.
O: So I am going to do my work and not get tired of it. We just cannot (afford
to) get tired of work.
S: Mm. Yes. The work (situation you have) is different from that of people
outside the company, they suffer a lot.
O: Very much so. They suffer.
S: All they are paid is twenty Zaire even though all those people may have
gone to trade school and know how to write and speak French.
O: That's how it is.
S: Yes.
O: Yes.

S: Alright. Can you think of anything
else, something to explain to me or ask me?
O: Now, about those questions you ask and what you want to know, this is
about writing and producing books, right?
S: Not really. That it is to say, I keep it for (later). Yes, in the end
….36

Notes

1 I have been using the
gloss "[laughs]" ever since I transcribed my first text (I sometimes
altered between [laughs], [laughter], and [chuckle(s)]). I never stopped to
discuss what has been obvious in my mind but may not be so for other readers:
[laughs] covers many different vocalizations or timbres of voice; it may be
anything between loud and barely audible; it can express anything between hilarity
and irony, even embarrassment or contempt; it may be extremely brief or sustained;
it may be one speaker's reaction or one that is shared, and so on -- the list
of possibilities is not complete (and probably cannot be). What do the sounds
that correspond to [laughs] have in common (apart from being what phoneticians
would probably call explosive)? They all are means of communication and they
may impart information. Beyond that there is an intriguing commonality of a
visual rather than aural nature that can be re-cognized in the sense of remembered:
[laughs] goes together with a change of expression, a different and distinctive
set of facial musculature. 2 In the original the preceding is somewhat
confusing, probably because by mugini I meant his native village whereas
in his response it possibly refers to an urban center.3 I had heard sawa, just about, as
saba, seven.4 My guess at the meaning of a cryptic phrase
in the original; the locative kule could also refer the Luena coal
mine. The Luena mine produced bituminous coal for use in the smelters of the
Union Minière.5 The original literally says "muntu
did not know," which may simply mean "one did not know" but could
also: be marked by the opposition of muntu to: muzungu, African
vs. European (see also note 19 below).6 We are using the (anachronistic) name of the
nationalized successor of the Union Minière.7 Trabeka = Société d'entreprise
de travaux de béton du Katanga, the Union Minière subsidiary cement
and construction enterprise.8 In the conversation I often used oui,
oui, which I eventually decided to translate with a simple non-emphatic
"yes" (much like "mm").9 The mining complex at Ruwe included, apart
from an open-pit mine, a smelter and processing plant.10 I use "ore" as a cover-all term
for the solids (bulongo) that go into, or produced during, the electrolytic
production of zinc. In fact the process was roughly as follows. From a concentrator
at Kipushi, near Lubumbashi, a so-called calcined concentrate was sent to Sogechim
at Jadotville/Likasi where it was roasted to produce sulfuric acid before it
arrived at Metalkat.11 The foregoing is an extreme example of a
common conversational device: seemingly meaningless repetition serves to maintain
the exchange while I think of the next question.12 Société Métalurgique
du Katanga. For a slide show of the plant see http://www.inchi-yetu.be/index_uzk.html
on the Inchi Yetu website.13 I take "other" to mean European
personnel directing construction, different from those who later oversaw production.14 Assuming the transcription is correct, the
French dictionary did not help with a translation. The same goes for bonpom
in the following. All that is clear is that terms refer to work in the construction
phase of the plant.15 "Water," mayi, as opposed
to bulongo, lit. soil, the untreated ore (the technical term is calcine).16 In the Swahili text I made a mistake: I
should have said balikuweka.17 "Pachuca tank (pə'chükə 'taŋk),(chemical
engineering) Air-agitated, solid-liquid mixing vessel in which the air is injected
into the bottom of a center draft tube; air and solids rise through the tube,
with solids exiting the top of the tube and falling through the bulk of the
liquid." From: (n.d.). McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific and Technical
Terms. Retrieved February 01, 2008, from Answers.com Web site: http://www.answers.com/topic/pachuca-tank18 Notice the change from definite to indefinite
article and back (the camp, a camp). Here a problem of translation (there are
no articles in Swahili) brings out a difference in perspective between the ethnographer
and his interlocutor. I have in mind life in a workers' settlement in general.
Baba Ngoie thinks of the place where he has been living for many years. Hence
it is not the difference between inside and outside the camp that seems important
to him but the difference between now and then, not a social-structural but
an individual-historical difference. I may actually have encouraged the latter
when I asked him to tell my how he sees this matter with "his own eyes."19 I did not understand mwikalio,
a local form of ECS ukao, from -kaa, way of living, hence
the repeated question (which Ngoie does not answer here).20 Here and in many other places I translate
bantu as people and the singular muntu as "a person."
These are simplifications. Depending on context (the present one may or may
not be such a case), bantu are opposed to wazungu: Africans
vs. Europeans. Similarly muntu may have to be translated as African
or black man. This may look much like the use of "Bantu" as a racial
term in South Africa under apartheid, except that in local Swahili wazungu
was a social-political, not a color term and muntu/bantu had retained
its basic signification, "human being(s)." 21 At this point, I feel, that my translation
needs a longer comment: To call a translation "free" is never very
meaningful except as a hedge against anticipated objections. Although the technical
facilities I have on my PC, which allow me to return at any time from transcript
to recording (I am using Express Scribe),
the only claim I can make is that my translation presents my understanding of
the text. That understanding I cannot simply "read" from the text.
What I offer is based on my general competence in Katanga Swahili, on a sense
for the particular speech habits of my interlocutor, as well on "experience"
- an ability acquired during field research in the past that is now made present
(represented) by reconstructing meaning that remains implicit, is connoted rather
than denoted, with the help of memories that are mobilized, above all, by the
sound recording. I imagine, but cannot back this up with any expert knowledge,
that the problems this kind of text poses are similar to those of translating
poetry - where there is no translation except through recreation. Which, incidentally,
puts yet another twist on debates about the role of "poetry" in ethnographic
representation.22 The term goes back to the beginnings of
mining early in the last century. Literally it means something like "the
one who always mixes" workers recruited from different ethnic groups and
places.23 The present tense of the question reflects
the fact that I had gotten to know Willy Houyet and his wife when we were house-sitting
for them in Lubumbashi. He was no longer with Metalkat but full of stories and
information about his time as a camp manager there.24 The Swahili verb here is -lala,
to sleep but is clear that Ngoie means this in a wider sense. "With other
people" is an allusion to one of the tasks of a camp manager: maintaining
peace among different ethnic groups in a camp.25 This remark was not really truthful. By
that time I was rather fluent in French. It is explained by a later similar
statement where I recall how hard it was to learn French. I just felt the need
to deflect a potentially embarrassing admission of his.26 Baba Ngoie's idiomatic response to my negative
question was ndiyo, yes, which, for some reason, I failed to register
as no; hence I continue to press him on the issue. 27 He means the European foramen and others
without degrees in engineering. During colonial and early postcolonial times
that distinction would often reflect the social and linguistic situation in
Belgium. Most upper level technical and administrative personnel were French-speaking.
Supervisors "at work," that is, on the production side, were mostly
Flemings.28 I put this in the past because Picquet was
no longer at Metalkat.29 The sound I make is not a rueful chuckle,
nor an expression of amusement.30 A proposition de , a proposal
for a penalty, was written by a foreman and sent to the camp manager who then
called in the worker to discuss the matter and decide on a penalty.31Moyi, or moyo, is the
traditional greeting in Tshiluba. An interesting little detail because baba
Ngoie is not a speaker of Tshiluba (see above). Relations between Luba-Kasai
and Luba-Katanga were often relaxed in those days.32 The visitor uses the plural form baNgoie,
lit. the Ngoies, something that is common in Katanga Swahili.33 The woman says sapula. I consulted
A. Mutombo about this expression. Sabula or sapula is Sanga
(the local language around Kolwezi), the equivalent of sema, speak!34 Baba Ngoie did not finish what he was going
to tell me. Probably he hinted at a conflict with the church (as my immediate
reaction suggests).35 This is a convenient translation of mali,
which in actual usage can also have specific significations, such as bridewealth.
Here it should be understood as prosperity or just "enough money to live
on."36 The recording stopped here because we had
come to the end of the tape without my noticing it. The fragment of my answer
brings up memories of similar situations. I was not trying to deny the purpose
of my questioning (see the beginning of this conversation) just to assure my
interlocutors that ethnographic research was a long process unlike the (company-sponsored)
surveys they may have undergone or heard of.
Still, even leaving aside ultimate questions about political or economic context
of social science research, I have no illusions about having gained the complete
trust of the workers with whom I talked.