I had to Google Madyroch just to figure out who you were referring to... and there wasn't much.

So you are taking THE most important and prevalent character in the Eastern Realms (most of the stories in the histories are about him - he pretty much 'did everything') - a guy who is old enough to refer to Larloch as "my boy" and has run circles around his contemporary Halaster as far as world-changing events go (he literally turned a dragon into a thousand-mile wall!) A dude who was not only a great Imaskari artifcifer, but also the First Emperor of Shou Lung (and the last emperor of Anok-Imaskar, since they were the same thing)...

And decided he was possessed the whole time by a nobody. A footnote in FR history.

I'm extremely confused by this logic path.

EDIT: He wasn't even the guy I had thought he was (Halaster's apprentice, Trobriand), which makes him even less relevant than I thought. Madryoch appears in just one place, in a single vingette, and nowhere else. What is the Shadow Stone? Is there lore on that, at least, or as that another throw-away reference?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

I had to Google Madyroch just to figure out who you were referring to... and there wasn't much.

So you are taking THE most important and prevalent character in the Eastern Realms (most of the stories in the histories are about him - he pretty much 'did everything') - a guy who is old enough to refer to Larloch as "my boy" and has run circles around his contemporary Halaster as far as world-changing events go (he literally turned a dragon into a thousand-mile wall!) A dude who was not only a great Imaskari artifcifer, but also the First Emperor of Shou Lung (and the last emperor of Anok-Imaskar, since they were the same thing)...

And decided he was possessed the whole time by a nobody. A footnote in FR history.

I'm extremely confused by this logic path.

EDIT: He wasn't even the guy I had thought he was (Halaster's apprentice, Trobriand), which makes him even less relevant than I thought. Madryoch appears in just one place, in a single vingette, and nowhere else. What is the Shadow Stone? Is there lore on that, at least, or as that another throw-away reference?

The Shadow Stone is a novel set in Chessenta. Madryoch is revealed in it to be a many years old Imaskari. GHotR also has some info on him. He was in Metos in the Methwood.

Madryoch was a prodigy (like larloch), born during the decline of a great empire (like larloch). He took on the imaskari empire and was brought down by hilather himself.

All i really did was add another layer to both characters since neither one detracts from the other and both have similar motives (a megalomaniac complex) and it allowed me to make martek evil because i think it would be a nice surprise for the players to go about restoring this legendary good guy only to find out it was all a lie and he was manipulating them the whole time.

You have to understand that "Shadow Stone" was initially written as a Birthright novel and then shoe-horned into the Realms when it was decided that it wouldn't be published for that other campaign setting. As such, it has its ... issues.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Well i regard the novels as secondary or even tertiary sources depending upon the author and the era.

So the events of shadow stone i will ignore (because i havent read the novel) but i am going to use madryoch because he is in GHoTR and nowhere else so im not trampling over any established lore).

Im fine with him making an artefact that is powerful and could threaten imaskar at the time. I dont do shadowweave/weave nonsense. Anyone can create a weave, its just a magic item that allows people to access prestored magic rituals in the form of spells. The problem is in making it big enough to cover the entire planet and thus replace the weave.

As for the shadowstone, i figure an item that drains the weave locally and allows only those keyed to the stone to cast spells would be quite dangerous to imaskar (they had a copy of the golden skins so they used the weave primarily). Then hilather beats him by using rituals to tap raw magic (with a healthy dose of magic items and physical butt kicking).

After that i see no problem with him being the driver behind someone else. Tan Chin already has a split personality almost with him being attributed to good actions early on and then unspeakable evil later, so why not have a possession drive the personality change.

Martek's story is full of holes so its brilliant for reinterpreting. And as i dont do the gods nonsense i needed a reason for the raurin desert forming and all the bad stuff to happen. Plus tan chin is a major player in this region already so seems an obvious candidate to make into the secret manipulator of the region (every region should have a big baddy)

Anyone even know what the 'Shadow Stone' is? Didn't we already have a very similar McGuffin involved with the Shadowking?

The guy sounds interesting, but there's like next to zero to go.

On the other hand, if you are going to run-off and create a bunch of backstory for someone, I suppose he'd be the perfect candidate (whereas as tan chin literally has 'too much history' = a lot of it even conflicts with itself).

So, was he alive recently, or does the novel all take place in the past? I suppose I could just get the novel, but considering I've never even heard anyone mention it before...

EDIT:The one in the Shadowking novel was called The Nightstone.

Hunk of rock, connected to the plane of shadows, major scary artifact... nope, not similar at all.

Personally, if I were in charge of FR canon, I'd make them the same artifact (just with different names from different eras). In fact, if we (once again) use my Thaeravel lore connecting it to Imaskar, it all works, because the 'commoners' of Thaeravel were Talfiric. So if the stone was later brought to Thaeravel by Halaster, and at a later time The Shadowking got a hold of it, it all works out.

And I just did a bit more digging - that novel takes place in the Maerchwood - a forest that literally disappeared off the map in 3e. Also the forest I had recommended you replace with you 'Red Forest of Shyr'. What a coinky-dink.

EDIT2:I should thank you for pointing me in this direction, Sleyvas - I just discovered the hitherto unknown Elven realm of Calmaercor, in the Maerchwood. VERY interesting. And they fought with Unther, back before their forest was greatly diminished. It seems that the Methwood was once part of it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

I've read that novel, but I don't recall being particularly grabbed by it. The last time I read it was likely a few years before my original copy was lost in the fire -- and that was 10 years ago, now.

Aside from not being impressed by it, I don't recall a thing about that novel... Which is a good thing, I suppose, since things like the horrible naming conventions in the Crypt of the Shadowking or how much I hated the ending of Faces of Deception remain with me long after I've forgotten the rest of the story.

I am pretty sure forest covered unther and chessenta way back when and the forest survived up until imaskar.

Where did you find the name calmaercor, ive not come across it before and i thought i had mined all the sourcebooks for lore

Its right near the beginning of the novel.

Seems I already had it on my computer... somehow.

There are also these 'shadow towers' (my name for them, and trust me, it was the first thing that popped into my head, and I hate it) - basically, 'refuges' set up by elves "in a bygone era", to help people who are fleeing something. The magic doesn't seem to be all that particular as to whether the people fleeing something are actually elves. The way they work is that you don't 'see' them (or sense them in any other way) unless YOU need them, so when you enter the area, people pursuing you will run right past you (and even between you, apparently - there were two people 'hiding', and a group of people chasing them ran right between them!)

It seems to be illusion-based, except it also obfuscates any mean of searching (they had bloodhounds chasing them), including magical, so its definitely more of a 'mental thing' then physical magic (because the pursuers will avoid running into the walls of the towers, or whatever, without even realizing it). Most of them were torn down, according to the one remaining 'Elven Lord' still living in the forest circa 1350's.

I'd use 'Ghost tower', but that's already being used, so 'Shadow Towers' for now ('Refuge Towers', which is what the elf referred to them as, sounds so... lame). I plan to use them elsewhere, since the Elven lord also made mention that this was a common practice in many Elven lands (he specifically names Cormanthyr, among others), when 'humans began to rise in power').

He certainly seems far less 'douchy' (and talkative) then most thousand-year-old elven lords. I haven't found the lore to be anti-FR as of yet (there is a dedication by Rich Baker as the beginning, naming Steven Schend, etc., for 'helping him with the Realsmlore', because he admits not knowing a damn thing about FR when he wrote the story). I did catch one spot where he forgot to change the lead characters name (I guess he was still using a typewriter, or a very primitive word processor, because he wasn't able to do a 'find & replace all' option). On the bright side, that tells me that the character's names were changed and made 'more Realmsian', which at least is a huge step above MANY FR novels I have sadly read.

In other words, he at least put some effort into shoe-horning it into The Forgotten Realms. That's probably more than I can say for something like the Twilight Giants trilogy ("This is an FR story... that in no way takes place on ANY Realms map known").

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

I've read that novel, but I don't recall being particularly grabbed by it. The last time I read it was likely a few years before my original copy was lost in the fire -- and that was 10 years ago, now.

Aside from not being impressed by it, I don't recall a thing about that novel... Which is a good thing, I suppose, since things like the horrible naming conventions in the Crypt of the Shadowking or how much I hated the ending of Faces of Deception remain with me long after I've forgotten the rest of the story.

The weird part is, I have just re-read A Spell for Chameleon about two weeks ago (after not reading it since the 1970's - gotta love secondhand stores!), and the opening sequence is practically identical, right down to the number of 'bullies'.

Then again, its a pretty over-used trope (mean people bullying the guy who later turns out to be the hero). Even Harry Potter used it... to death.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

I've read that novel, but I don't recall being particularly grabbed by it. The last time I read it was likely a few years before my original copy was lost in the fire -- and that was 10 years ago, now.

Aside from not being impressed by it, I don't recall a thing about that novel... Which is a good thing, I suppose, since things like the horrible naming conventions in the Crypt of the Shadowking or how much I hated the ending of Faces of Deception remain with me long after I've forgotten the rest of the story.

I'm getting that way about a lot of novels that I ready 10-20 years ago.... the entire plot is just gone from my head. I have a vague picture usually of some of the characters... like I know that this story involved Cimbar. I know it involved Madryoch and some elf. I know the shadowstone was almost like a shadow weave item in that it disrupted the weave or somesuch. It almost makes me wonder if when Karsus had his "oh sh*t" moment as he was turning to stone.... did he actually let loose and that also turned to stone.... and now that's an artifact.... the Magnificent Terd of Karsus (aka the shadowstone)..... just kidding.... maybe....

quote:"The cumarha midhe," Fineghal said over his shoulder. "In Common, Forest's Stonemantle. It's a place of strength and purpose, a place of magic."

This is a place inside Maerchwood. There is line of hills that cuts through the forest, and this place is at the center of those hills (simply referred to as 'the spine of the forest').

quote:Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've read that novel, but I don't recall being particularly grabbed by it. The last time I read it was likely a few years before my original copy was lost in the fire -- and that was 10 years ago, now.

Aside from not being impressed by it, I don't recall a thing about that novel... Which is a good thing, I suppose, since things like the horrible naming conventions in the Crypt of the Shadowking or how much I hated the ending of Faces of Deception remain with me long after I've forgotten the rest of the story.

I'm getting that way about a lot of novels that I ready 10-20 years ago.... the entire plot is just gone from my head. I have a vague picture usually of some of the characters... like I know that this story involved Cimbar. I know it involved Madryoch and some elf. I know the shadowstone was almost like a shadow weave item in that it disrupted the weave or somesuch. It almost makes me wonder if when Karsus had his "oh sh*t" moment as he was turning to stone.... did he actually let loose and that also turned to stone.... and now that's an artifact.... the Magnificent Terd of Karsus (aka the shadowstone)..... just kidding.... maybe....

"I've got the Hand & Eye of Vecna!"

"Oh yeah? I've got the Turd of Karsus!"

"Dude... really? You just picked that thing up?"

I was actually thinking there is probably a set of these 'Ebon Objects' (there are four mentioned in the Hordelands modules), and the Shadow/Night Stone, and then there is 'The Black Star' mentioned in that famous line from 1e. My thoughts are there are SEVEN of them. Seven 'Umbral objects of Power', that need to be used to 'extinguish' the Seven Stars of Mystryl. Or maybe they are 'seals', and when the seven seals are broken, The Dark One can return?

And Storm already has broken one. Its the end of days (then again, the last of them were probably destroyed just before the spellplague h...

The last of them. just before the world went to hell. Or rather, just before Azuth 'went to hell' (literally).The staff.........

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

I've read that novel, but I don't recall being particularly grabbed by it. The last time I read it was likely a few years before my original copy was lost in the fire -- and that was 10 years ago, now.

Aside from not being impressed by it, I don't recall a thing about that novel... Which is a good thing, I suppose, since things like the horrible naming conventions in the Crypt of the Shadowking or how much I hated the ending of Faces of Deception remain with me long after I've forgotten the rest of the story.

I'm getting that way about a lot of novels that I ready 10-20 years ago.... the entire plot is just gone from my head. I have a vague picture usually of some of the characters... like I know that this story involved Cimbar. I know it involved Madryoch and some elf. I know the shadowstone was almost like a shadow weave item in that it disrupted the weave or somesuch. It almost makes me wonder if when Karsus had his "oh sh*t" moment as he was turning to stone.... did he actually let loose and that also turned to stone.... and now that's an artifact.... the Magnificent Terd of Karsus (aka the shadowstone)..... just kidding.... maybe....

There are other novels I read just as far back as that, that I remember much more clearly... Heck, I remember more from reading The Boxcar Children in 3rd or 4th grade than I do of The Shadow Stone. It's all because of how much I liked each story.

I would take Karsus' petrified poop over another god made artefact any day. I see no problem with having separate societies creating artefacts with the same name.

Definitely wont be keeping the novel events but if it turns out mr schend coined the name for calmaercor then i will have to put that in my realms. Maybe it can be a survivor of the elves from the vilhon reach tsunami.

I remember (I memba!) novels I read in HS, Jr. High, and even elementary school better than I remember about half of all Realms novels I've read.

Hence, the term 'forgettable'.

But how about them Old Empires, eh? _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I stopped going through the book a chapter or two in. I may or may not go back to it. It has nothing to do with whether it is good or not, but rather, most of the stuff I have in a folder labeled 'D&D' I downloaded en masse via a torrent, right after my house burnt down. The idea was to provide myself many of the sources I had BOUGHT & OWNED, until I was able to reacquire them in a 'normal' manner. Over the years I have used torrents to download stuff I was 'iffy' about purchasing, so that I could preview them first (with the intention to buy). I bought several sourcebooks this way - buying the physical book after looking through the pdf (so I didn't really feel like I was doing anything wrong.... morally). There was also a bunch I didn't bother to buy, because they were 'not for me'.

Novels are a different story. I like to have pdfs even if I have the physical books (of which I've replaced many already), so that I can use them for 'research purposes' (like I started out doing here). However, I never bought this novel, and if I am going to 'go through it' cover-to-cover, then thats the same thing as reading it, whether I enjoy it or not.

I've actually met many of the FR authors, and consider a few my friends, so by the time I got about halfway through chapter 2 I started to feel a little 'dirty', if you know what I mean. I have to decide now whether I was enjoying it enough (even if just for lore purposes) to warrant purchasing a copy.

And the real reason why I haven't gone through that folder and at least deleted the novels from it? Because many of those novels have maps in the front of them, and even if I NEVER read the novel (and there are a number of those, trust me), I still like to have those maps. And even though I've already pulled the maps out of most of them as jpg's, I still like to have the book as well, in case there is something on the map I need to know about (I can then run a search throughout the book, without 'reading' it).

Which reminds me, I need to order Faces of Deception. That one I'll need to go through cover-to-cover as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

It was originally a sacred valley to the Raurin Empire (pre Mulhorand and Unther people ruled here for two centuries before abandoning the region). It was known as the Valley of the Gods and housed great pyramids in a secluded valley walled by great hills on all sides.

The Gates of Shul (spell gates) guarded the four passes into the valley along with fortress temple cities (including Tirbakar and Tirpazar). Those who passed beneath the gates were cursed by powerful magics unless they had taken part in ceremonies at the temples.

When the Raurin Empire fell the people crowded into the Athis Valley as the desert claimed the surrounding lands. Small kingdoms arose around tribal divides and warred with one another resulting in the demolishing of the pyramids left behind by the Raurin Empire.

THe ritual of MArtek drained a lot of magic from the Athis Valley, including the Gates of Shul (I'm thinking at the moment Madryoch was trying to make another Shadowstone with the ritual) so now the gates are just way-markers with forboding inscriptions on them.

Oh and cheers to George for a few Mulhorandi words that helped provide inspiration.

The 'Athis Valley' only became 'a thing' after the surviving regions of Imaskar set-up that decanter of endless water to create the river.

I assume the river was already there, but the original source was destroyed (vaporized) when the Mulan Gods nuked The Plains of Purple Dust.

I am also picturing a very large lake central to that area (the 'heart' of Imaskar), that fed that river and several others. When the lake got destroyed, the entire river system collapsed, so that even after 'fixing' the Athis, the remaining kingdoms (Survivor states) slowly died-off (the Decanter of Endless Water simply delayed the inevitable). I've had the idea for the lake for about a decade now, but I've recently been toying with the idea it was a 'lakes region' with a bunch of small lakes (in the lowest part of the Raurin Basin), and then the Imaskari opened up a large gate to the plane of water in the center, filling-up the lowlands and connecting all the minor lakes. This would have been an early experiment and triumph, which of course lead to them thinking they were 'better than the gods'. They literally tarraformed their environment right from the beginning. Problem with that, though, is that an artificially created ecosystem is much easier to disrupt than a natural one.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

The 'Athis Valley' only became 'a thing' after the surviving regions of Imaskar set-up that decanter of endless water to create the river.

I assume the river was already there, but the original source was destroyed (vaporized) when the Mulan Gods nuked The Plains of Purple Dust.

I am also picturing a very large lake central to that area (the 'heart' of Imaskar), that few that river and several others. When the lake got destroyed, the entire river system collapsed, so that even after 'fixing' the Athis, the remaining kingdoms (Survivor states) slowly died-off (the Decanter of Endless Water simply delayed the inevitable). I've had the idea for the lake for about a decide now, but I've recently been toying with the idea it was a 'lakes region' with a bunch of small lakes (in the lowest part of the Raurin Basin), and then the Imaskari opened up a large gate to the plane of water in the center, filling-up the lowlands and connecting all the minor lakes. This would have been an early experiment and triumph, which of course lead to them thinking they were 'better than the gods'. They literally tarraformed their environment right from the beginning. Problem with that, though, is that an artificially created ecosystem is much easier to disrupt than a natural one.

Just to note, in 5e, decanters of endless water must be activated each round. I can actually see some cultures who actively hire old folk or kids to do nothing but continually activate decanters (and in fact that is something I've been thinking of adding into some of my stuff, especially on an earthmote that will have several decanters and the decanters can be moved around to different areas of the earthmote to engineer rivers as needed).

On the other hand, this might be some sort of artifact, dating from before the fall of Mytryl (when magic was more powerful).

Ed had even said, back when 4e first showed up, that 'potions of longevity' still existed (from the time before the Spellplague), you just couldn't make any new ones. Thus, it seems to me, once a magical device is created, it will follow the rules and conditions under which it was created, no matter how much magic itself has changed. Besides, i don't think a decanter would ever provide enough water for it to ever become a river, so I think it WAS an artifact-level version of one of those (a 'trough' of endless water?)

On the other hand. at least two of those things have created huge swamps in the Realms. Someone should be more careful.

EDIT:Ya know, given who those guys were, couldn't we just say it was a (portable) portal to the plane of elemental water? Something about the size of a 'hot tub', and then when the rivers all ran dry, they just turned that sideways and left it running. I mean, these guys were known for opening Gates to other planes. That lore came from the original (non-FR) modules, when we didn't even know the name of the 'Raurin Empire', so it should be okay to change it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Im presuming stating the athis valley did not exist prior to martek is because the blurb about the dustwall says "it was raised during th fall of the raurin empire". Im taking that one to be a myth and raised does not mean created.

As for the river athis being created in terbakar. I believe it says when it was created so i may have it as an imaskari portal which means the river has been there for a long time, possibly to replace a river that used to exist there.

Most of the stuff in the desert of desolation module is myth so im happy rewriting it somewhat.

Okay so the Imaskaroloth is drawn to the Stars of Mo-Pelar. It knows they bind it to Raurin and can sense them when they are above ground or outside concentrations of magic. It can't destroy them (can only drain non permanent magic) but it can keep them and hopefully find a means of destroying it later.

The Stars of Mo-Pelar are currently housed in highly magical buildings; the dome of Kahnathaeg (Carthag), the Tomb of Amun-Re, the Crypt of Badr Al Mosak, the Tower of Set (beneath the Oasis of the WHite Palm) (the 5th lies with Madryoch in Solon).

When anyone recovers one of the stars of Mo-Pelar, the Imaskaroloth immediately begins chasing them. The party needs to recover all five of them in the hopes of destroying the Imaskaroloth. Once they recover the 4th in the Tomb of Amun-Re, the Imaskaroloth traps them inside (its a mile wide and just sits around it like a massive whirlwind of destruction). Once the party decides to face the music and take on the Imaskaroloth anyway they will be whisked away by Madryoch to Solon (teleporting anyone touching one of the Stars of Mo-Pelar into prison cells inside Solon).

At least that's the kind of adventure I'm kind of planning to join the Desert of Desolation modules and the adventure module in Solon.

Also detailed more of the locations in Raurin to try and link the places to existing lore such as the Gates of Shul, the Hinjaz, the Tomb of Amun-Re, the Tower of Set, the city of Carthag.

As an aside, the deeper I dig into K-T lore (which is REALLY distracting from what I want to be working on), the more I have to rethink things.

For example, I had always assumed Tsao Choo to just be another name for Tan chin. I've been toying with the idea that that was just another body he inhabited for awhile, but we may be overplaying that card, so depending on what sort of timeline I can put together for him (and the eras of the shou Empire), I may just have it as an alais. Another idea would be to just say 'tan Chin' is a 'westernized' version Tsao Choo. However, that name appears in 3e sources, and thus, is presented in the (stagnant) 'omnipotent 1st person' PoV, so it would be strange for the sources to quote the 'wrong' name (but at the same time, it would still be 'correct' to westerners, so its a case of "half dozen of one, ..."). Not sure where I want to go with that, and like I said, its my ''ace in the hole' if I run into chronological inconsistencies in the timeline (which I full expect). Having one guy be two people makes things rather easy for 'patching' purposes.

Unfortunately, some of the K-T makes him out to be VERY MUCH ALIVE before the fall of Meilan (both the city and the consort). I was hoping he was a lich while still Imaskari. Of course, the K-T material DOES state he ruled for an impossibly long time (for a normal human), so it could just be a 'cover-up' (quite literally).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

A few things i noticed. It has a palace and was at one time bigger than unthalass. I figure that during the floods that devastated unthalass the godkings moved out of the capital and up to Messemprar. They probably remained several decades until Unthalass was rebuilt (atop the ruins of the old) before moving back.

Im going to name it the Summer palace (a nod to Sumeria).

Also noticed for the first time that Gilgeam got blamed for something he didnt do. He stopped the priests from calling rains to the greenfields to irrigate crops and so produce was less and famine grew. But the Red Wizards had been using weather magic to encourage rains in their own land and that was playing havoc with the weather of surrounding lands. Mulhorand and Unther were both suffering a drought (unthers was greater) and the red wizards were exporting a lot of their food to Unther. So the red wizards created the problem to destabilise the country and to profit from it.

Also looked at the northern wizards. I dont think gilgeam liked wizards. Im pretty sure he banned unlicensed wizards (ive done so in this unther) and then there is a big organisation like the northern wizards running around in the second biggest city and they support a rebellion against gilgeam which is exactly why he doesnt like wizards.Also why are they dedicated to preserving only Messemprar. It doesnt make sense.So im thinking the northern wizards are a society of mages from Mordulkin, dedicated to protecting the northern cities from outside threats. They basically keep mordulkin and mourktar independant of unther or anyone that tries to unite chessenta.The northern wizards are trying to foment unrest in messemprar to weaken unther and as a counter to the rising power of bane in mourktar.

Also Thamor is a town created by messemprar and mourktar to aid trading between the two cities but it doesnt say when it was established. I reckon its very recent as a precursor to messemprars rebellion. Unther objected to the foundation so i cant see messemprar being allowed unless it was intending to ignore his orders anyway and rebel.

I've decided to utilize him a bit differently than you, but I am hoping I can spin things where the two sets of lore don't have to be completely unbrigeable.

I am going to turn him into Thirayam from Open Grave. Once a student of Hilather, he later followed Tenchin (Tan Chin's name in Imaskar) when Tenchin opened his 'School of Necrotic Arts' in Bhaluin, and he later became headmaster after Tenchin left (he spent some time on Oerth).

So, since I've explained elsewhere how I going fudge the lore between Open Grave - that Thirayam WASN'T Tan Chin at all, but rather, an 'apprentice' of his, it all works out. This establishes an old connection between the two in MY lore, so that YOUR lore becomes 'a possibility' within that framework (the two of them may have even been using the same 'mortal vessels' when the other wasn't around, so that adds to the confusion).

Also, Open Grave's lore concerning Hantumah - formerly Khatiroon - works into where I've decided to go with Kara-Tur in 5e. Whatever Thirayam did there, he set off a necrotic chain-reaction, similar to what Szass Tam was trying to do with his Dread Rings. Thus, Tan Chin is now being blamed for all that, when in truth, he's probably all that's keeping it from spiraling completely out-of-control at this point (that would have to be one of those 'deep secrets', though, that PC's shouldn't never even suspect). Madryoch = Thirayam (and his Shadow Stone) makes all of this work out nicely - the stone could have been pivotal in reducing poor Ra-Khati to a land of undead.

We may now go back to our regularly scheduled thread...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone