Besides the over signing issue (SEC dominance) another noticeable factor in the Big Ten's decline is the lack of good to great QBs. It's been a while since there's been 3 good ones in this conference, and a long long time since multiple schools had back to back to back good QBs.

Used to be the case for a while.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

leadpipe wrote:After Shurmer and Walrus get pink slipped, they're gonna gather a couple a friends from 1982 and head into the Big Ten to continue the tradition.

Man, once Urban gets his guys in here he's gonna make a joke of these relics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the remainder of the conference relics, b/c frankly other schools have implemented more pass oriented offenses over a period of time (unfortunately for some of the said schools they simply cannot recruit the legit talent to go there).

But you would think once Meyer gets rolling OSU would pull away from the pack.

There are multiple factors as to why the Big Ten is down, people in general just disagree about the significance of those factors.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

JFC, I don't care what you say about the talent, the opponent, the conference etc etc etc...the numbers today are astronomical.

I know 8th graders that coulda put up half that yardage.

It was THAT bad.

Which, again, why I wasn't into drafting Weeden. You, or anyone else, hasn't ANY idea if Geono Smith can quarterback. Just awful football, and nothing resembling anything like when the opposing coach and team has an idea of what's going on.

An awful Heisman, and if they happen to run the table, they are gonna get bludgeoned in the championship game.

leadpipe wrote:After Shurmer and Walrus get pink slipped, they're gonna gather a couple a friends from 1982 and head into the Big Ten to continue the tradition.

Man, once Urban gets his guys in here he's gonna make a joke of these relics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the remainder of the conference relics, b/c frankly other schools have implemented more pass oriented offenses over a period of time (unfortunately for some of the said schools they simply cannot recruit the legit talent to go there).

But you would think once Meyer gets rolling OSU would pull away from the pack.

There are multiple factors as to why the Big Ten is down, people in general just disagree about the significance of those factors.

leadpipe wrote:After Shurmer and Walrus get pink slipped, they're gonna gather a couple a friends from 1982 and head into the Big Ten to continue the tradition.

Man, once Urban gets his guys in here he's gonna make a joke of these relics.

Hoke, Urban, BoB and Beckman all have non-traditional B1G backgrounds. The biggest problems holding these guys from taking the world by storm are the PSU sanctions killing BoB and the Illinois being Illinois killing Beckman thing. That said, what we are watching in the B1G is a very real conversion event. The zombies are all being purged for a new era (besides Douchlema and D'Antonio and his band of thugs). What is happening right now is growing pains. Harsh ones, but we have to deal with it.

JFC, I don't care what you say about the talent, the opponent, the conference etc etc etc...the numbers today are astronomical.

I know 8th graders that coulda put up half that yardage.

It was THAT bad.

Which, again, why I wasn't into drafting Weeden. You, or anyone else, hasn't ANY idea if Geono Smith can quarterback. Just awful football, and nothing resembling anything like when the opposing coach and team has an idea of what's going on.

An awful Heisman, and if they happen to run the table, they are gonna get bludgeoned in the championship game.

I only watched a half and am not Mr. Geno Smith, but as someone who watched every snap of RGIII's first three games last year, there is an eye test factor here you are not adding to your points.

leadpipe wrote:After Shurmer and Walrus get pink slipped, they're gonna gather a couple a friends from 1982 and head into the Big Ten to continue the tradition.

Man, once Urban gets his guys in here he's gonna make a joke of these relics.

Hoke, Urban, BoB and Beckman all have non-traditional B1G backgrounds. The biggest problems holding these guys from taking the world by storm are the PSU sanctions killing BoB and the Illinois being Illinois killing Beckman thing. That said, what we are watching in the B1G is a very real conversion event. The zombies are all being purged for a new era (besides Douchlema and D'Antonio and his band of thugs). What is happening right now is growing pains. Harsh ones, but we have to deal with it.

And we have to pray these guys are who we hope they are.

I'll meet you halfway. Without a doubt you've got some transitioning - and the problems that come along with it, but they still have too many teams playing 10 years ago football - which I would argue is hurting the conference at least as much as those in transition.

And Penn State has an obvious wrench in the works as far as their conversion, however, we can't forget that if not for the wrench Joe Pa would still be coachin' em' up like it's 1974.

Eventually everyone will get in modern times. Better not to be the last conference to do it.

leadpipe wrote:After Shurmer and Walrus get pink slipped, they're gonna gather a couple a friends from 1982 and head into the Big Ten to continue the tradition.

Man, once Urban gets his guys in here he's gonna make a joke of these relics.

Hoke, Urban, BoB and Beckman all have non-traditional B1G backgrounds. The biggest problems holding these guys from taking the world by storm are the PSU sanctions killing BoB and the Illinois being Illinois killing Beckman thing. That said, what we are watching in the B1G is a very real conversion event. The zombies are all being purged for a new era (besides Douchlema and D'Antonio and his band of thugs). What is happening right now is growing pains. Harsh ones, but we have to deal with it.

And we have to pray these guys are who we hope they are.

I'll meet you halfway. Without a doubt you've got some transitioning - and the problems that come along with it, but they still have too many teams playing 10 years ago football - which I would argue is hurting the conference at least as much as those in transition.

And Penn State has an obvious wrench in the works as far as their conversion, however, we can't forget that if not for the wrench Joe Pa would still be coachin' em' up like it's 1974.

Eventually everyone will get in modern times. Better not to be the last conference to do it.

They wish they were playing ten years ago football. They are playing early 70's football. Looks like they are playing some better ball in the ACC. B12 still doesn't play D. P12 is in the same boat as the B12 with less offense.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

Honestly, 'Bama is crushing NCAAF by playing 70's B1G football better than everyone else.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

FUDU wrote:Lead, be more specific and define "get in modern times" in your eyes?

Not trying (honestly) to be combative, but do you not watch a lot of college football?

I watch a quite a bit matt.

...and furls beat me to my own punch.

I am always interested in what people define as what it is they are seeing on the field. Both in the college game, and the pro game, especially in relation to winning, b/c winning is what it is all supposedly about.

Frankly I don't think people are seeing some of the stuff they are claiming as trends when they watch games, and I am not trying to lump Lead into that generalization, I was truly interested in what he thought "get with the modern times" meant.

The two most dominant teams in the past few years are no question Bama& LSU, coming from the most dominant conference in the game. Guess how they are winning, by running the ball a hell of a lot more than they pass it. They are playing a brand of ball that more resembles our 2005-2006 Buckeyes. Except they are extremely talented and dominating at the LOS instead of having the absolute best at the QB or skilled positions.

Really of all the most recent championship caliber teams, that have actually taken the trophy home recently, the Gators are the only team to have run what could be called a gimmicky or ahead of the trend offense.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

There is a reason Alabama is dominating, and it's because they have one of the very few schools that can get the world class horses to match up defensively.

As Matt alludes to, not going to go into obvious detail as to why the game has changed, and the collegiate game isn't quite as disjointed as the NFL, where running the ball is getting close to a diversion at best, but pretty much a waste of time.

But an excellent example was right in front of your face yesterday. Both quarterbacks are average to poor in throwing the ball. One of them was your 1970's statue, and one was able to make plays in other fashions AND was put into position to do so by the coaching staff. Which guy is easier to stop?

SEC's speeed and defense were bourne from having to.....challenge teams with big speed and modern concepts on offense, not grapple with Iowa's fullback. What they have been doing to Big Ten teams is very real. Up to date equals better prepared.

THis is an interesting discussion. Here are some takes, some more obvious than others...

1. What is it 'Bama does best? They recruit every position on the field at the highest level. There are some teams that RBs don't want to go to because they will not be featured (Mike Leech's for example) and there are some teams that WRs don't want to go (Air Force) because they won't get the touches. Everyone wants to go to 'Bama. What is even more impressive with 'Bama is their ability to turn 5* recruits into 1st rounders at every position. Not only do they recruit the best, they develop them as well.

2. What I love about NCAAF is the creativity. There is not the great talent parity that you see in the NFL, therefore teams have to get creative to compete. Hence the SEC move to speed in the late 70's, it was the great equalizer to the B1G's power. The gimmicky spreads that you see today are talent equalizers, spread the opposition to nullify specific positional advantages by limiting the damage that any particular player can do (a great safety can't cover 2 WRs if they are on opposite sides of the field). It also takes greater teams and puts them at a disadvantage by showing them something they are not used to seeing.

3. The elite SEC teams are not elite because of speed. The best NCAAF teams are all fast. The idea that one team or conference is inherently faster than the others is patently false and it is proven at every NFL combine. It is true that the SEC has valued speed at certain positions that the B1G has valued power (DL for instance), but that is changing. Take a look at the best DL to come out of the SEC lately, they weren't speed players, they were power players (Fairley, Cody etc.). JJ Watt (from the slow conference) has turned out to be a pretty decent pro! The elite SEC teams are elite because of elite talent and elite coaching.

4. Right now the B1G is plagued by terrible coaching. Outside of tOSU and maybe MSU which team's coaches would you really want? Kirk Ferentz? Please. Douchema? Really. Hoke? Guy is an average mid-major coach. Last year's SEC featured Miles, Saban, Petrino, Spurrier and Richt. Those are 5 of the best in NCAAF. When Florida's job opened up they took the hottest name out there, Muschamp (time will tell if that was a good hire). That is a pretty decided edge, but even more impressive are the assistants in that conference.

5. Not really related, but how about the death of NCAAF defenses? It is embarrassingly bad. How can Georgia be ranked in the top 10 after playing half the game (the defensive half) as badly as they did. That is just one example, and it is from God's chosen conference. Geno Smith is a hell of a player, but you have to grade last week's performance against the Baylor defense curve. Unfortunately, that curve is no longer unique to Baylor.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

furls wrote:THis is an interesting discussion. Here are some takes, some more obvious than others...

1. What is it 'Bama does best? They recruit every position on the field at the highest level. There are some teams that RBs don't want to go to because they will not be featured (Mike Leech's for example) and there are some teams that WRs don't want to go (Air Force) because they won't get the touches. Everyone wants to go to 'Bama. What is even more impressive with 'Bama is their ability to turn 5* recruits into 1st rounders at every position. Not only do they recruit the best, they develop them as well.

2. What I love about NCAAF is the creativity. There is not the great talent parity that you see in the NFL, therefore teams have to get creative to compete. Hence the SEC move to speed in the late 70's, it was the great equalizer to the B1G's power. The gimmicky spreads that you see today are talent equalizers, spread the opposition to nullify specific positional advantages by limiting the damage that any particular player can do (a great safety can't cover 2 WRs if they are on opposite sides of the field). It also takes greater teams and puts them at a disadvantage by showing them something they are not used to seeing.

3. The elite SEC teams are not elite because of speed. The best NCAAF teams are all fast. The idea that one team or conference is inherently faster than the others is patently false and it is proven at every NFL combine. It is true that the SEC has valued speed at certain positions that the B1G has valued power (DL for instance), but that is changing. Take a look at the best DL to come out of the SEC lately, they weren't speed players, they were power players (Fairley, Cody etc.). JJ Watt (from the slow conference) has turned out to be a pretty decent pro! The elite SEC teams are elite because of elite talent and elite coaching.

4. Right now the B1G is plagued by terrible coaching. Outside of tOSU and maybe MSU which team's coaches would you really want? Kirk Ferentz? Please. Douchema? Really. Hoke? Guy is an average mid-major coach. Last year's SEC featured Miles, Saban, Petrino, Spurrier and Richt. Those are 5 of the best in NCAAF. When Florida's job opened up they took the hottest name out there, Muschamp (time will tell if that was a good hire). That is a pretty decided edge, but even more impressive are the assistants in that conference.

5. Not really related, but how about the death of NCAAF defenses? It is embarrassingly bad. How can Georgia be ranked in the top 10 after playing half the game (the defensive half) as badly as they did. That is just one example, and it is from God's chosen conference. Geno Smith is a hell of a player, but you have to grade last week's performance against the Baylor defense curve. Unfortunately, that curve is no longer unique to Baylor.

Really nice post, and spot on with all points. I was a bit sacastic with FUDU initially because when you look at the big picture the college game is in a continual state of evolution.

Alabama, to me, is an anomolous data point - best recruiting, best talent development, and best coaching make their scheme almost irrelevant. But there are 119 other FBS teams that are going to rely, in some part, on Xs and Os (creativity) to try and negate the talent disparity. And this is where the B10 is stuck in the dark ages for the most part. If you cannot get the best talent than you better get some innovation on both sides of the ball. Which is almost absent in the Legends and Leaders.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Yeah, the best way to illustrate my point is to ask yourself, "Could 'Bama beat any team in the country without changing any aspect of their gameplan?" I say the answer is yes. 'Bama's talent and talent development is so far ahead of everyone else this year that I think that they could beat any team in the country by 2 TDs by playing 'Bama football. They may have to play more nickel against the spread, but they are still 2 TDs better than anyone without doing any crazy shit.

The rest of the NCAAF has to do crazy shit to play 'Bama within 2 TDs.

As for talent development, I think we are seeing a new era in talent development at tOSU now. Tressel's staff had done a good job of developing some position groups (LBs, DL, QBs, DBs), but was terrible at developing others (WRs, OL immediately come to mind). You can already see significant improvement in the OL and WRs this year; Warriner was probably the third most important hire of the post-Tressel era (Meyer and Marriotti are 1 and 2). This year's line is "less talented" than last year's but they are so much better. Can you imagine what Warriner might have been able to do with Shugarts, Adams and Brewster? 3 supremely talented OL that never got any better than they were during their freshman years.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

I agree in general with what you said, and to Matt's point as well about perpetual evolution so to speak (due to what Furls said about if you don't get enough talent you have to scheme against the grain).

Ultimately Furls I think your thoughts on this point back to that one thing, the one taboo thing few people like to talk about, over signing. I'm not discrediting Bama's or SEC coaching b/c I've long thought their coaching was a big part of the dominance they have. But it can be broken down into a numbers game, and they play the numbers well.

Also, it's scary to think how could Bama or LSU would be if they landed a stud QB, arguably the one position they rarely land a stud at. But again to the credit of their staff, schemes and recruiting, they don't really have to land a stud QB. They truly are plug n play offenses.

I think the point about programs that cannot land the needed talent (to play the game straight up) HAVE to be different in their Xs & Os is solid, and IMO Oregon is a prime example. Only problem is the Oregon way was debunked a bit, and by our own Buckeyes in 2009. A school like that can be had by a solid coach with just a slight advantage in talent level, at the key positions.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Glad you chimed in more deeply furls, lots of good points from you.

I agree in general with what you said, and to Matt's point as well about perpetual evolution so to speak (due to what Furls said about if you don't get enough talent you have to scheme against the grain).

Ultimately Furls I think your thoughts on this point back to that one thing, the one taboo thing few people like to talk about, over signing. I'm not discrediting Bama's or SEC coaching b/c I've long thought their coaching was a big part of the dominance they have. But it can be broken down into a numbers game, and they play the numbers well.

Also, it's scary to think how could Bama or LSU would be if they landed a stud QB, arguably the one position they rarely land a stud at. But again to the credit of their staff, schemes and recruiting, they don't really have to land a stud QB. They truly are plug n play offenses.

I think the point about programs that cannot land the needed talent (to play the game straight up) HAVE to be different in their Xs & Os is solid, and IMO Oregon is a prime example. Only problem is the Oregon way was debunked a bit, and by our own Buckeyes in 2009. A school like that can be had by a solid coach with just a slight advantage in talent level, at the key positions.

Oversigning is an important part of this, but not the most important part; it is probably about 4th or 5th. If OSU was in the SEC then it is likely that LeVeon Bell is a Buckeye today. Along with Mason Monheim who just missed the cut and is currently starting at MLB and playing well for Illinois. That said, 'Bama is not fucking people up with the 26th or 27th recruits of the class, they are doing by landing Trent Richardson instead of Bryce Brown (both 5*'s) and developing Richardson. Better question is if Bryce Brown had gone to 'Bama instead of Richardson would he have had the same level of development? I think probably not, but I am reasonably sure he would have been an excellent NCAAF back.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

NFL QBs come from pretty much everywhere which is the pretty surprising part about it. Off the top of my head, I would say that the BIG XII is pretty well represented in the NFL right now.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.

RGIII, Weeden, Gabbert, Dalton (TCU) and Bradford. That seems pretty decent. I have no idea how good any of them will actually be, but it seems pretty decent. I don't profess to be an expert on the NFL.

Coming from a Wolverine, we're the football equivalent of a formerly abused wife of a meth addict who just remarried the safe nice guy. We're just glad we have someone who's aware that it's a rivalry and that tackling on defense is integral. Baby steps.