KD5FKF: "my point is the gov't assuming control over things that, in my OPINION, they have no authority to do so."

A lot of us would agree - it's just a matter of how much control and what areas.

KD5FKF: "Although the private sector isn't perfect, it usually works itself out because the consumer is the ultimate voice of authority."

Usually but not always. That's where government regulation is needed.

KD5FKF: "If it doesn't work, the consumer will go elsewhere."

IF and only IF the consumer has a choice. That's the big problem with many so-called "free-market" systems: the consumer doesn't really have a choice. That's why we have anti-trust laws.

If the private sector controlled all radio regulation, how much choice do you think you'd have when it came to amateur radio?

KD5FKF: "If the gov't takes control of something they aren't accountable to anyone. I know, they are suppose to answer to "We the people" but in reality . . . "it ain't gonna happen." "

Do you think the election of 2008 made no difference in accountability?

KD5FKF: "You see the gov't now taking over the auto industry,"

No, they're not taking it over. They're bailing it out so it doesn't fail. Whether they should do that is another issue.

KD5FKF: "going after the best health care system in the world"

AFAIK the US isn't going after France's health care system.

KD5FKF: "setting its sights on the broadcast media"

Only because broadcasting uses a publicly-owned resource: the radio spectrum.

KD5FKF: "Some of the areas you mention are valid but gov't hasn't done a very good job with any of them."

Compared to what? Did the private sector put humans on the moon?

KD5FKF: "Roads? Who do you think builds the roads? Private contractors build them under gov't regulations."

And government FUNDING and government DIRECTION. How many roads do you think we'd have if it were up to the private sector?

Did Ike make a mistake by pushing for the creation of the Interstate Highway System?

KD5FKF: "Medicare? Private hospitals and doctors under gov't regs."

And government FUNDING. Would you rather have senior citizens buy all medical coverage through the private sector? What do you think it would cost?

btw, Medicare spends 3% of its revenues on administrative costs. The rest goes to pay for services. Private sector insurance companies spend about 30% of revenues on administrative costs.

Now, who does the better job?

KD5FKF: "Education? Have you checked out what our children are being taught in public schools?"

YES - have YOU?

KD5FKF: "Some of 'em can't even read their diplomas. But they can put a condom on a banana. They know everything about Marilyn Manson but can't tell you anything about George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. They read "Heather has two mommies" but have never heard of the constitution."

Maybe the kids where you are. Not the ones I deal with every day.

The public-school kids around here can all read their diplomas - and much more. They don't know who Marilyn Manson is, but they can tell you all about Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, the Roosevelts, the Constitution and ALL its amendments, the Declaration, the Emancipation Proclamation, the court system and much more. (And that's just the middle-schoolers!)

KD5FKF: "In most every area where the private sector performs, they do it better and at less cost."

As well they should!

But such comparisons can be misleading. Private schools have big advantages over public schools in at least two ways:

1) Private schools can raise prices and requirements more easily. 2) They can pick and choose their students, the locations of their schools, grades covered, criteria for continued enrollment, etc.

IOW, private schools can and do say: "Our school costs this much, your kid has to meet these criteria to get in and those criteria to stay in. If you don't like it, sorry, we can't help you." A private school doesn't have to accept every kid who applies, nor deal with kids that have learning or behavior problems, unless they want to.

But the public school systems have to enroll and try to educate every kid in the district, regardless of the problems the kid and family have.

KD5FKF: "My apologies for starting a much too political thread on a good website for a bunch of great hams. I'm going back to my antenna question . . ."

IMHO, these aspects of radio regulation are essential to amateur radio, because without them we wouldn't exist.

KD5FKF: "my point is the gov't assuming control over things that, in my OPINION, they have no authority to do so."

A lot of us would agree - it's just a matter of how much control and what areas.

KD5FKF: "Although the private sector isn't perfect, it usually works itself out because the consumer is the ultimate voice of authority."

Usually but not always. That's where government regulation is needed.

KD5FKF: "If it doesn't work, the consumer will go elsewhere."

IF and only IF the consumer has a choice. That's the big problem with many so-called "free-market" systems: the consumer doesn't really have a choice. That's why we have anti-trust laws.

If the private sector controlled all radio regulation, how much choice do you think you'd have when it came to amateur radio?

KD5FKF: "If the gov't takes control of something they aren't accountable to anyone. I know, they are suppose to answer to "We the people" but in reality . . . "it ain't gonna happen." "

Do you think the election of 2008 made no difference in accountability?

KD5FKF: "You see the gov't now taking over the auto industry,"

No, they're not taking it over. They're bailing it out so it doesn't fail. Whether they should do that is another issue.

KD5FKF: "going after the best health care system in the world"

AFAIK the US isn't going after France's health care system.

KD5FKF: "setting its sights on the broadcast media"

Only because broadcasting uses a publicly-owned resource: the radio spectrum.

KD5FKF: "Some of the areas you mention are valid but gov't hasn't done a very good job with any of them."

Compared to what? Did the private sector put humans on the moon?

KD5FKF: "Roads? Who do you think builds the roads? Private contractors build them under gov't regulations."

And government FUNDING and government DIRECTION. How many roads do you think we'd have if it were up to the private sector?

Did Ike make a mistake by pushing for the creation of the Interstate Highway System?

KD5FKF: "Medicare? Private hospitals and doctors under gov't regs."

And government FUNDING. Would you rather have senior citizens buy all medical coverage through the private sector? What do you think it would cost?

btw, Medicare spends 3% of its revenues on administrative costs. The rest goes to pay for services. Private sector insurance companies spend about 30% of revenues on administrative costs.

Now, who does the better job?

KD5FKF: "Education? Have you checked out what our children are being taught in public schools?"

YES - have YOU?

KD5FKF: "Some of 'em can't even read their diplomas. But they can put a condom on a banana. They know everything about Marilyn Manson but can't tell you anything about George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. They read "Heather has two mommies" but have never heard of the constitution."

Maybe the kids where you are. Not the ones I deal with every day.

The public-school kids around here can all read their diplomas - and much more. They don't know who Marilyn Manson is, but they can tell you all about Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, the Roosevelts, the Constitution and ALL its amendments, the Declaration, the Emancipation Proclamation, the court system and much more. (And that's just the middle-schoolers!)

KD5FKF: "In most every area where the private sector performs, they do it better and at less cost."

As well they should!

But such comparisons can be misleading. Private schools have big advantages over public schools in at least two ways:

1) Private schools can raise prices and requirements more easily. 2) They can pick and choose their students, the locations of their schools, grades covered, criteria for continued enrollment, etc.

IOW, private schools can and do say: "Our school costs this much, your kid has to meet these criteria to get in and those criteria to stay in. If you don't like it, sorry, we can't help you." A private school doesn't have to accept every kid who applies, nor deal with kids that have learning or behavior problems, unless they want to.

But the public school systems have to enroll and try to educate every kid in the district, regardless of the problems the kid and family have.

KD5FKF: "My apologies for starting a much too political thread on a good website for a bunch of great hams. I'm going back to my antenna question . . ."

IMHO, these aspects of radio regulation are essential to amateur radio, because without them we wouldn't exist.

A huge number of hams actually started out on CB! CB is the cheapest way one can get on the air, because you can buy a brand new Midland 40 channel AM radio today for around $30 bucks, an antenna for $10, and be on the air less than 5 minutes after opening the box! Hams work a lot harder and spend a lot more to chat on the waves, and have a much greater respect of the rules (in general). When you have 2 groups with this much disparity, there is bound to be some degree of animosity.

There were the early hams (pre-WW1) such as Maxim, Tuska, Stewart, and others who went to Congress on their on dime and stood up for the experimenter/amateur at a time when the Navy and commercial interests wanted to control all of radio.

There were those who formed the ARRL back then, and then revived it after WW1 to get hams back on the air.

There were those who went to the international radio conventions in the 1920s to secure the existence of amateur radio in a world where many governments didn't want private citizens to have radio at all. Maxim, Mrs. Maxim, Warner and others went, supported by many hams back home.

When the "1929" regulations were announced, there were those who not only pushed amateurs to comply, but developed the means and showed how to do it. Folks like Grammer, Hull, Lamb, and more.

When WW2 shut down amateur radio a second time in 25 years, there were hams who went to war and used their skills and knowledge for victory.

Then there are all the hams who pushed for SSB when the bands got crowded. Hams who did public-service communications, hams who did pioneering things like satellites, EME, meteor scatter, etc. Hams who fought TVI and the high cost of equipment. Hams who formed the backbone of WERS, MARS, RACES and other organizations. And much more.

73 de Jim, N2EY

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sorry for the delay in reply.

Onward to my reply...

All those people are dead.

The world they lived in is dead.

Their achievements almost to totality are dead.

No ine gives a damm in this world at this time.

And other than the old timers the vast majority the modern hams have absolutely no clue who H P Maxim is much less the other two you mentioned

Everything they achieved has either been altered over the course of time into something completely diffferent with absolutely no resembelance to the world as it is today.

I agree whith you totaly.The reply below your is something.I guess you dont agree with the teaching of your peers.I guess you figure a cber can run what ever he wants,even if it causes havock on everyone eles.That is whats going on just south of St.louis about 40 to 60 miles.We have cbers running over 100% modulation.Running over 1kw.And export radios that out of the box are 300wts.I wish they would get caught.Ten meters is usless.73s de JW

http://www.eham.net/forums/Elmers/231256I have a Yaesu FT-757GX as a base in the four corners area of New Mexico. We are at 7,000 feet above sea level on a 30' tower. I'm currently using an inverted V which has gone bad and I'm not happy with its performance anyway. I'm thinking of going to a vertical or Yagi but really would like some suggestions. I have no amp, running barefoot at 100w. I'm figuring with a Yagi I will also need a rotor. But with a vertical I'm pretty much getting the most with the least financial output. If the Yagi is a better choice I can probably swing it but still want the best bang for my buck. Would like to use as many bands as possible. Suggestions? Thanks!!!

A antron99 or solorcon 2000 is a good one.I picked up one at a yard sale for $20...it tunes on 10-12 and 15 without a tuner...If you want more get a wire,and tuner.G5RV ,bubble bazoka is good for many bands.Ham fest are good also,73s de JW

Maybe, maybe not. I was there before there was a Citizens Radio Service, aka CB band. The, roughly, megacycle was stolen from the Amateur Radio Service over much opposition. Its advertised purpose was as a short range low power comm capability for citizens and businesses who heretofore were disenfranchised from using, i.e. transmitting on, the radio spectrum except for expensive licensed services. In the day, a day of hotshot VHF rigs like the Heathkit Twoer, a service like FRS would have been much harder to implement.

Fast forward. Has that laudable goal been met on 27MHz? I say no. Its by and large a morass of junk.

Not to mention a large number of CB intruders into the 10M and other amateur bands. You who have joined us in the last few years have yet to experience this illegal activity to any great extent due to lack of 10M propagation. But your turn to join me in disgust is coming. If we could keep them cooped up in the 27MHz band like we keep ourselves cooped up on amateur frequencies it would be more or less OK. CB is most definitely not a self regulating service. Rather, its the epitome of outlaw radio.

Next, take the top 10 percent of ham vs CB radio stations. Is there even one CB station that would make the list? I don't know, but have never heard of such a thing. The top ten percent of amateur stations would have to include all top DX and contest stations, a tough team to break into. Whereas a typical CB station has a vertical. Or maybe a quad, just a tad tilted, bolted to a roof mount. Or a yagi, half the reflector missing.

And what of the typical traffic? How to compare with NTS? HF packet traffic nets? Here CB radio does better with the many good folks providing comms for public events, just as many good hams do.

How about technical expertise? I suppose there are CBers who build stuff like antennas. What about rigs? Where is the CB equivalent of QEX? Or even the "designed for everyone" QST? Any CBer worth the technical salt has a copy of the ARRL handbook and probably a few other League pubs.

On to licensing. What constitutes a CB license? A signature. Contrast that with your amateur licence. At the least, understand it or not, some memorization is required which may one day lead to some understanding. For many of us there was also a CW requirement that, good or bad, is now deleted. (FYI I think its a good thing. Many folks who wouldn't be here otherwise, are. Including a lot of very qualified ex-CBers.)

So on the face of it one can easily conclude that hams do in fact enjoy the superiority of many more frequencies that they had to work for. Hams enjoy many more legal modulation technologies, nearly all of them in fact, than CB radio. Hams do in fact enjoy many dB more legal transmitter power than CB radio (although that "99 dB" I read of earlier in this thread for the gain of a vertical may be slightly out of reach!).

Does that make us superior individually? Naw. We just had to commit to harder work to earn our radio stripes. Just my humble ruminating. Why CBers hate us so much? Emotionally one can call it anything. The only logical conclusion is envy.

So, for the folks green with envy, we have the solution. Join the club. We're so generous we'll even help. Operate 10 meters legally. Earn an Amateur Radio Service license.

why does anybody care? why do hams hate cbers?-again, why does anybody care? why would anybody watch the video? i don't care. i do find a gentleman who calls himself 40mobile & posts on youtube cb stuff from certain 'famous' cbers 'amusing' and in some cases interesting. some just make noise, others speak about the equipment they are using. some i think would make FINE hams, some probably already are, many have a hard time speaking english and probably aren't smart enough to memorize the test so.....why don't YOU help out/elmer those cbers who wish to get into something else, OR yourself purchase a cb radio & try to make things better THERE. i have a cb alongside my 706 in my truck. sometimes i find i need to shut them BOTH off & turn on the stereo. there is knob labeled 'OFF' on ALL of them. i ignore who i need to ignore & don't worry much about who hates who.

Your talking about 4040VideoGates (Youtube) I love watching them!! I have my CB and my HAM radio next to each other. I myself like the "Free Lingo" that people tend to use on the 11 mtr band. I listen to both if I had to choose I still talk more on my CB radio just to meet and talk to real people. Some hams sounds like robots and always want to talk radio set ups etc..... this is cool but damn sometimes I like to put the HAMMER down. And im not talking about splattering all over the damn band either!! Its all in the antenna! Now there are a lot of famous CB'ers out there and you would never know it and YES lots of them are all ready HAMS!! Their stations sound wonderful on the air. Why hate? Congratulate them don't get mad because they don't do what you think they should do or sound how u sound! we are all different! If you dont like them then you know you have that BIG KNOB that says "OFF"

Better be thankful they still have CB'ers because I have not seen 1 single HAM call for help in a Highway accident or pile up!! Whats the chances that a CB'er will be able to call for help? So just be thankful that their on the road and they have a CB!! You never know you might need them one day!

Its the illegals that I would like to see busted in a cold blooded fashion with max 10K fines per infraction even if it means reduceing them and their family into abject poverty with seizure of home, auto and property to pay the fines.

Perhaps a few critical examples would get the FCC a better enforcement budget overall and show the CB group violation of the law carries severe penalties.

KT4QF wrote:" Where is the rationale that 11 meters was taken away from anyone? Hams are free to use it like anyone else, as a channelized phone HF sub-band limited to 4 watts.

Let it go."

I entirely agree.

Seems the complaint, by some hams, is that they can't get on 11m and discuss their XYLs inability to have a BM or the results of their cardiac bypass. Why can't they do that? Because "those damn CBrs are over there discussing..." whatever it is that they discuss.

Geez, geezers. You don't think the other 14 or so bands of freq allotment aren't sufficient for you to carry out your ever so vital communications? Is it so unbelievably critical that you have 27 Megs that you can't get things done on the other freqs?

And as to the claims "CBrs have wreaked havoc on everyone else". I personally have never had my havoc wreaked by CBrs. They cause no interference to my communications and I live in one of the busiest metro areas in the country, Phoenix.

I listen to the truckers on 19 whenever I'm on the road and the information is very up to date and helpful. Much more helpful than the Geritol nets on HF. CB fulfills a very real and vital role for essentially every trucker in the US. What makes us think that our own personal definition of "Hobby Communications" is any more important than that role in which CB has found itself?

" Where is the rationale that 11 meters was taken away from anyone? Hams are free to use it like anyone else, as a channelized phone HF sub-band limited to 4 watts”**********

Up until I saw that statement, I thought this was just another one of those silly subjects we often see that are best left to die of natural causes.

But, to answer your question, I, along with many others, operated 11m CW and AM until one day in 1958 we were told we could no longer use that band. My 300 watts CW/AM with the VFO suddenly became useless.

Same thing happened when incentive licensing came along. A lot of hams were told they could no longer operate on phone below 3850 on 75m.

Such is progress....but,

Don’t you realize by now that in order for the government to give anyone anything, they must first take it from someone else?

I have no problem at all with CB. I have a problem with stereo-typical CB behavior on the ham bands.

"I have no problem at all with CB. I have a problem with stereo-typical CB behavior on the ham bands. "

We definately agree on that.

Incidentally, I remember hams calling 2 meters the "10-4 Band" even before the no-code tech.

CB in many areas is totally dead, so there is less stereotypical behavior on 27mhz than old hams complaining about it- This isn't 1978 anymore. Even the old channel 6 garbage, overmodulated as it is, rarely splatters the way it once did.

I do listen to the "freebanders" from time to time, if only because I dont hear a single soul on the ham bands and the conversations are more interesting and civil most of the time anyway.

I live south of St.Lousi Missouri.About 40 miles.And cb is alive and very well here.Most run at least 100 wts.We have many running 300 wts.And 3 running a kw or more.They all run on ch 35bam,or none as 27.355am.And its so bad i cant run 28 mhz,and a frend running a ft1000d cant run 12 mtrs.I do have a problem with cbers.I dont know about free-banders.73s de JW

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