If the Lakers sweeten the pot or restructure the deal, can they get CP3? Or is he just not allowed to be dealt to NY or LA?

I am ALL FOR players not being able to manipulate their way to whatever team they want. But how do you police this? What trades are allowed? Which aren't? Whose call is it?

The whole lockout, in the perception of Joe Fan, is all about these players not being able to team up, game the system, and set up camp in the 5 mega-cities. Lockout ends and this shit starts going down 5 days later.

The NBA has gotta figure this out, or they risk alienating a large chunk of their fan base. It's a major problem. Especially now with the precedent of a trade being vetoed down.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

It would be a travesty to allow the Lakers to acquire Chris Paul in the apparent trade being discussed.

This trade should go to a vote of the 29 owners of the Hornets.

Over the next three seasons this deal would save the Lakers approximately $20 million in salaries and approximately $21 million in luxury taxes. That $21 million goes to non-taxpaying teams and to fund revenue sharing.

I cannot remember ever seeing a trade where a team got by far the best player in the trade and saved over $40 million in the process. And it doesn’t appear that they would give up any draft picks, which might allow to later make a trade for Dwight Howard. (They would also get a large trade exception that would help them improve their team and/or eventually trade for Howard.) When the Lakers got Pau Gasol (at the time considered an extremely lopsided trade) they took on tens of millions in additional salary and luxury tax and they gave up a number of prospects (one in Marc Gasol who may become a max-salary player).

I just don’t see how we can allow this trade to happen.

I know the vast majority of owners feel the same way that I do.

When will we just change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?

Please advise….

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

No clue where this is going but I did find the Washington Generals comment to be the most indicting. I would wager that Stern heard from more than GIlbert to make such a monumental decision. Sounds like the consensus at this point is that Chris Paul cannot be traded any longer. I would agree on that point at this stage. This is what happens when the league takes ownership of a team that shouldn't even exist.

NBA has a serious problem growing on their hands and they refused to address or aid it by neglecting any contraction conversations. ESPN and much of the mainstream is missing the an issue here though. These players prior to their FA are now attempting to dictate where they get traded to and are using the extensions as their leverage. Chris Paul is NOT a FA, he's under contract with NO. If he wants to leave to a preferred destination, he is more than willing to do that via FA signing, however the sign and trade or limiting your trade cities is a major issue the league/players need to address.

This is going to be fascinating. It has all the makings of a trainwreck but fascinating, nonetheless.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Also do not neglect the fact that many owners and many around NBA circles have already brought up. A CP3 trade without Bynum could pave the way for a Dwight Howard swindle that would destroy the internet with NBA conspiracy theories.

On this deal, I do not feel it is unfair in its player for player sense but it does continue an issue that the lockout and competitive balance focus was thought to improve. That said, the lockout and the agreed deal DOES NOT help competitive balance much moving forward so I fail to see how the owners could not see this coming a month ago. And CP3 and all these soon to be FAs would have been better off getting to All Star break before making their moves. They are overplaying their hand and the wrath that is facing them and the league now.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Now we learn that Gilbert sent the email at 10pm, after Stern had vetoed the trade. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

And it's also interesting, because - if you take Gilbert's email at face value - he isn't directly asking for a Commish veto: just a decision by the 29 "partners" who comprimse the ownership to approve a trade of the franchise's marquee player. Which is the same kind of ownership input that would normally take place in any kind of major, franchise-changing transcation. Of course, at that point, the Hornets "partners" aren't voting on what's best for the franchise (even if, arguably, New Orleans makes out well in a basketball sense), but what's best for their conflicted interests.

Stern saying in advance that the league wouldn't interfere with the GM's basketball decisions is a false premise. A so-called pledge of non-interference is still an ownership decision demonstrating control over the organization. Cuban was right, of course.

This is the same sort of nonsense, if on a much bigger scale, as what happened when MLB bought the Expos. (At least, from a purely self-interested point of view, the Indians got to take advantage via the Colon trade.)

The "Booo Hooo" stuff is stupid too. He had a short deadline and mailed in a regitated take, the same take all the other ESPN guys spewed out throughout last night and into this morning.

Why aren't analysts pointing out that these players are narrowing their 1-yr destination list to 2 or 3 preferred teams, simply because they are able to sign the max contracts with them then.?

NBA should have squashed the sign and trades all together. Chris Paul, you get traded to Boston and don't want to play. Fine but deal with the consequences.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

The "Booo Hooo" stuff is stupid too. He had a short deadline and mailed in a regitated take, the same take all the other ESPN guys spewed out throughout last night and into this morning.

Why aren't analysts pointing out that these players are narrowing their 1-yr destination list to 2 or 3 preferred teams, simply because they are able to sign the max contracts with them then.?

NBA should have squashed the sign and trades all together. Chris Paul, you get traded to Boston and don't want to play. Fine but deal with the consequences.

This is why the lockout wasn't ready to be resolved. Everyone knew CP3 was about to be traded from an NBA-owned team. If you still had a very vocal/vindictive group of small market owners, what exactly did Stern think was gonna happen? I'm with Gilbert that a lot of markets are rapidly becoming irrelevant, but this battle is being fought way too long after the fact.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

My understanding is that Paul's agent gave 4 teams he would report to play for this season after meeting with NO management a week ago or so.

GSLACLALNYK

You may be right about exactly how the Paul trade played out but I thought Paul got out in front and said he didn't want to play in Boston before they even had the "quasi" conversations into whether he would re-up.

If you eliminate sign and trades it certainly goes a long way in helping eliminate this final year hostage situation that is created by these guys wanting to dictate where they want to play their final year of the contract they signed.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

noles1 wrote:My understanding is that Paul's agent gave 4 teams he would report to play for this season after meeting with NO management a week ago or so.

GSLACLALNYK

You may be right about exactly how the Paul trade played out but I thought Paul got out in front and said he didn't want to play in Boston before they even had the "quasi" conversations into whether he would re-up.

If you eliminate sign and trades it certainly goes a long way in helping eliminate this final year hostage situation that is created by these guys wanting to dictate where they want to play their final year of the contract they signed.

Again, this about where he would sign an extension - he has one year left on his current deal. I really don't see where the "sign and trade" comes into play at all.

Just like the Indians dumping CC to the Brewers (only in this case NOLA actually got a very very good deal). After the season, CC opts to be an FA and the Brewers essentially rented him for about 12 starts.

This is one of the greatest abuses of commissioner power I have seen in modern day sports. It's a travesty.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

You don't see how the sign and trade is hovering over all this commotion? Again I am not contending the deal and its priciples, more the system that is in play here and the fragile situation it continues to promote with its structure. Sign and trades are incredibly stupid and 'location trade' demands from players in their last year are no different.

If Paul stays in NO, he will likely move locations but still be able to dictate some sort of a sign and trade, ala Lebron and Bosh. Same with Howard. Not only are they leveraging that but not it's a trade and sign point they are able to leverage in the last years of their deals.

They want to pick their trading location and long-term location, and by doing so they inflict this trade destination demand.

By eliminating sign and trades all together, if players like Paul want to leave then they can leave and all teams appreciate that risk. But to do so, he is at the mercy of the cost to make such a move.

Your CC analogy does not go far enough until you would specify that CC has said (w/out a no trade clause mind you) that he only wants to go to NYY or 2 other cities in a trade for this year. Knowing full well if he doesn't go anywhere this season he will sign and trade in those locations next year anyway. (thereby getting max $) Really though it's a difficult comparison because baseball and basketball are vastly different financially.

Sounds like we agree that the trade veto is messy and only exacerbate a more larger problem with the NBA.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

The "Booo Hooo" stuff is stupid too. He had a short deadline and mailed in a regitated take, the same take all the other ESPN guys spewed out throughout last night and into this morning

Yeah -- the same guy who says "booo hooo" to the Washington Generals line goes on to end his column by saying he wants to cry over mean old Stern's decision.

I have to admit, though, I'm kind of split on this one. I mean, anything that has Simmons, Colin Cowherd and Screamin' A Smith "boooo hoooo-ing" and everyone else at the Worldwide Leader locking arms in protest singing "We Shall Overcome" can't really be all that bad.

On the other hand ... in this case, it does sound like NO got a pretty good deal. League owning the team makes this a huge mess.

Orenthal wrote:If Paul is forced to play out his season in NO, and the "trade" option is taken off the table would LA have the cap space to sign him outright?

BTW the LeBron situation is a bit different. We traded LeBron into cap space, a fait accompli. If we played hardball and Gilbert held tru to being a petulant child he could still have signed in Miami.

I would think they could amnesty someone and possibly find a way to get cap space. (obviously they do not want to do that though)

Agree on the difference with the Lebron situation but note he made much more money out of us doing it. If you remember the money didn't get worked out until the trade stuff did.

But you bring up another issue here, this move relieves a ton of luxury tax pressure from the Lakers to my understanding. Could make a case that the Lakers made their decision to not have cap space and CP3 has to understand that. If he wants to go there though couldn't he sign for the mid level when the time comes?

Note, I'm not advocating all this persay just playing devil's advocate. My main issue over the past 24 hours has been the sports media's talking points regarding the ordeal. Incredibly one sided and not entirely the whole picture. (ie. no finger pointing to CP3, just as there was none to Melo)

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Ultimately, there is a MUCH deeper issue here in my opinion that will never totally bubble up but it has a lot to do with a take that LeBatard has brought up over multiple occasions in the past 18 months.

The Decision and the Team USA bonding experience has created a shift change amongst the players that the owners are none to comfortable with (the owners other than the major markets) and while many believed the lockout was the "enough is enough" moment, turned out greed superceded. Still that 6 year opt-out clause is likely to be exercised by the owners and I believe this was yet another example of their growing majority of malcontents banding together and taking a stand.

Players need to be manning their battlestations for this right now. If they hope to curtail this moving forward they better get behind Paul and start to get out in front of things, otherwise in 2018 we are probably gonna see Lockout 2.0

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

I'm with you noles with respect to the trade rules make it easier for a guy to pick his destination team limiting the resources that are returned. Under just normal FA its a good bet he doesn't stay in NO, but now his market may be more limited as teams need to make the harder amnesty vs trade decision.

Course even limited return is better then no return. All comes back to guys dictating where they want to go. Regardless of sport I feel that somehow ruins the game, but eh, the owners choos BRI split and money above all.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

If Paul stays in NO, he will likely move locations but still be able to dictate some sort of a sign and trade, ala Lebron and Bosh. Same with Howard. Not only are they leveraging that but not it's a trade and sign point they are able to leverage in the last years of their deals.

If Stern axed this trade, what makes you think he would let another go through? NOLA would have gotten Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and the NYK 1st rounder out of this trade. That's a hell of a lot better offer than letting him walk away for nothing in free agency, and probably better than any trade offer so far, as GS & LAC haven't offered Curry or Gordon.

Paul is gone next year anyway, and if he doesn't want to stay where they trade him, that is his right as a free agent. If it is somewhere he wanted to stay, he could sign there through free agency assuming they have the cap space.

Its funny that you guys bitch and moan about sign-and-trades now, but two or three years ago everyone was hoping the Cavs could get a S&T player to help out. If there was a way that S&T would have helped the Cavs, you would have lauded Ferry for making a great deal.

My main issue over the past 24 hours has been the sports media's talking points regarding the ordeal. Incredibly one sided and not entirely the whole picture. (ie. no finger pointing to CP3, just as there was none to Melo)

It isn't Paul's fault that the trade got nixed, and he has the right to refuse extending his contract wherever. Would you he didn't say which teams he would resign for? That some team goes and blows their assets on him then have him not resign with them because they had no clue if he would or not? Not only did Stern just fuck CP3, he fucked the Hornets. After Stern told Demps (NOLA GM) that Demps had the rights to sign FAs and trade as he saw fit to make the team better, Stern stepped in and reneged. Not only did NOLA miss out on this trade, but who is going to want to spend all the time trying to get Paul or anyone else on the Hornets if they don't know if Demps has the authority to pull the trigger.

noles1 wrote:You don't see how the sign and trade is hovering over all this commotion?

One last time - this is not a sign and trade deal - every player involved in the proposed trade is under contract. Also, Paul did not veto a trade to Boston - the Celtics did.

ETA - I think maybe you mean that next year, after his contract expires, Paul will use the S&T to "force" NOLA to trade him where he wants to play? And maybe that is the case. But that is a Hornet decision and not a Paul decision. The LeBron case was completely different - the Cavs were going to re-sign him.

But Paul is going to leave NOLA regardless. S&T or not - he is a FA on 1 July 2012. He has done the right thing and already told them under no circumstances will he re-sign. So the Hornets make a trade that benefits every team involved, and Stern steps in for no good reason and starts fucking around with a legit business tranaction. Unbelieveable.

Maybe if Gilbert cries enough Stern will agree to let Paul play in Cleveland this year.

Last edited by mattvan1 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

JJN wrote:If Stern axed this trade, what makes you think he would let another go through? NOLA would have gotten Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and the NYK 1st rounder out of this trade. That's a hell of a lot better offer than letting him walk away for nothing in free agency, and probably better than any trade offer so far, as GS & LAC haven't offered Curry or Gordon.

On the whole, I'd rather have Curry, Gordon, or even let Paul walk and go high lotto in '13 than take a pile of warmed-over also-rans and hope Chandler, Amare, and Melo have a tragic mid-court collision. NBA Reality.

That said, lots of wheels moving here. Having a hard time believing this was solely Stern's call.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

This is the best ever. This league is a total mess run by really stupid scum of the Earth people. I love seeing this, something NBA related actually being watchable.... even if it is a train wreck. Keep going guys, I want to total implosion. I want them relegated to ESPN 37, where they belong.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is the best ever. This league is a total mess run by really stupid scum of the Earth people. I love seeing this, something NBA related actually being watchable.... even if it is a train wreck. Keep going guys, I want to total implosion. I want them relegated to ESPN 37, where they belong.

I noticed you've been absent for a few days. Everything go okay with your hysterectomy and labia reduction surgeries?

Roy retired today, as well. Tough day to be a Blazer fan. Even worse knowing what they have done with their basketball related operations and decision-makers.

mattvan1,I'm not going to discuss it further with you. I made my points about the overall system. You are trying to point out the current situation with this trade and I'm stating the S&T's as bigger picture leverage points. You are missing my point or not bothering to comprehend and while I understand yours I don't need to have to read back to me 3 different times.

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Like when this good deal for NO turns into Odom pouting and demanding to be traded to a large market, er,contender. And you have to take 60 cents on the dollar to move him. And Scola says, well if he is leaving I want out. Then Kevin Martin blows up by taking 35 shots a game and he demands to be traded. Where does it end?

So you start out getting Odom, Scola, Martin and a #1. Which turns out to be Kris Humphries, Ryan Hollins and Ramon Seesions, Jason Kidd's corpse and the 20th overall pick. For Chris Paul.

Who is to say this deal is the best deal they could have received. As good as it may be, what if some small market was going to offer something better. Shit, what if NO liked the Celtics offer more? They cannot do it because Paul won't sign an extension. Which is the bullshit of what is going down right now.

You cannot let the player limit your opportunity to make the best deal possible. And they are.

Just be happy we had the lockout, because with the new CBA it would cost CP3 $40MM to sign an extension so he won't. Guy openly told his team to get the best they could for him and also said..... "but I'mma make my money"

Be happy the Melo trade happened and the new CBA dampened sign and extends. Be really happy about that.

noles1 wrote:Roy retired today, as well. Tough day to be a Blazer fan. Even worse knowing what they have done with their basketball related operations and decision-makers.

mattvan1,I'm not going to discuss it further with you. I made my points about the overall system. You are trying to point out the current situation with this trade and I'm stating the S&T's as bigger picture leverage points. You are missing my point or not bothering to comprehend and while I understand yours I don't need to have to read back to me 3 different times.

Apologies. Not trying to be difficult or argumentative. I have a huge issue with a league and ownership (or parts thereof) which locks out the players to gain concessions and to attempt to change/curtail player mobility. The day the deal is ratified Gilbert is bitching and Stern puts the kabosh on the trade. WTF?

Last edited by mattvan1 on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

pup wrote:The big problem with this deal and this path is what it leads to.

Like when this good deal for NO turns into Odom pouting and demanding to be traded to a large market, er,contender. And you have to take 60 cents on the dollar to move him. And Scola says, well if he is leaving I want out. Then Kevin Martin blows up by taking 35 shots a game and he demands to be traded. Where does it end?

So you start out getting Odom, Scola, Martin and a #1. Which turns out to be Kris Humphries, Ryan Hollins and Ramon Seesions, Jason Kidd's corpse and the 20th overall pick. For Chris Paul.

Who is to say this deal is the best deal they could have received. As good as it may be, what if some small market was going to offer something better. Shit, what if NO liked the Celtics offer more? They cannot do it because Paul won't sign an extension. Which is the bullshit of what is going down right now.

You cannot let the player limit your opportunity to make the best deal possible. And they are.

The bullshit is that he has the right to not sign an extension in a place he doesn't want to play, when he has the right to opt out of his contract? The fuck?

Odom, Scola, and Martin should all be worth at least a late 1st rounder. If they flip them all, they would have 5 1sts rounders in one of the deepest drafts in recent memory, including their own which would be pretty high if they flipped all those pieces for picks. As the deal stands, they should be able to secure a playoff spot.

So what is NOLA liked the Celtics offer better? The Celtics retracted it.

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:On the whole, I'd rather have Curry, Gordon, or even let Paul walk and go high lotto in '13 than take a pile of warmed-over also-rans and hope Chandler, Amare, and Melo have a tragic mid-court collision. NBA Reality.

If Curry or Gordon had been offered, then you would have a point. By all accounts they haven't been.

At least Dwight Howard has determined that the Magic are free to trade him to one team and one team only. A small market team at least.

At this point they really should just make the NBA a 6-team league and be done with it. In essence it already is exactly that. But there are ~25 other teams you can at least work out against before May.

Yes, there are only a few good teams at any one time. And a few really shitty ones. And most in the middle. Its almost like a bell curve, the natural distribution one would expect.

And its not like Orlando is getting fucked like we did with the S&T for LeBron. The package is rumored to be Brook Lopez plus picks, and they are looking for a way to sweeten the deal. Maybe Howard would have stayed if the Magic wouldn't have signed Lewis and Hedo to absolutely terrible contracts, and then taken on Arenas.