button first but really if it pre flop should it really matter there been like children who goes first if that happened

Why does the fact that its preflop mean are they being like children?

On a single hand it makes little difference. But if somebody was constantly showing their hand when they didn't have to. It amounts to a lot of free information over time, in particular calling range. If its a game among regulars, this isn't worthless info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectorjelly

Why button? TDA rules are that if there is no aggressive action on the river then you revert to position.

What rules apply then? Why would/should this rule be different in a cash game than a tournament?

I suppose the house rules would apply. It does matter which is used as long as it's consistently applied.

A tourney is different to a cash game because it doesn't occur in a tourney. In a tourney once all-in both players flip their hands before the flop/turn/river is dealt.
But not in a cash game. The first player shows his hand, and subsequent players have the option if mucking losing hands without showing.

No, he means all the action was preflop so there was no betting on the river.

I prefer the old school 'I called you' scenario, so the button should show first.

What he said doesn't make sense.

I don't have any particular preference one way or the other, but I think its something that is ruled incorrectly/inconsistently quite often in ireland.

I played in Berlin a lot this year and one thing I loved there was how strict the dealers were with regard to showdown order, we waste a lot of time in Ireland with people reluctant to show or showing only one card etc.

I suppose the house rules would apply. It does matter which is used as long as it's consistently applied.

A tourney is different to a cash game because it doesn't occur in a tourney. In a tourney once all-in both players flip their hands before the flop/turn/river is dealt.
But not in a cash game. The first player shows his hand, and subsequent players have the option if mucking losing hands without showing.

You can have the exact same situation in a tournament, button makes last aggressive action preflop (but not all in) and its checked to the river.

I don't think most places have house rules covering this situation (I might be wrong), so the TDA rules would apply. The Fitz has their own rule regarding showdown order, which is the same as TDA but the cutoff is preflop rather than the turn.

I don't have any particular preference one way or the other, but I think its something that is ruled incorrectly/inconsistently quite often in ireland.

I played in Berlin a lot this year and one thing I loved there was how strict the dealers were with regard to showdown order, we waste a lot of time in Ireland with people reluctant to show or showing only one card etc.

Fully agree with you: this reluctance to show hands at showdown is increasingly prevalent at all poker events that I play. Personally I believe that the last aggressor should show (or muck if he/she wishes) first and immediately. In any event if dealers are instructed properly in the rule they have the power to wipe out this bloody annoying and time wasting trend.

there's no action on river therefore I'd think that part of the rule null and void and it would revert to last aggressive action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectorjelly

Do you mean there CAN be no action on river?

I mean it is impossible for there to be action on the river in your example. As you said, the rule is "if there is no aggressive action on the river then you revert to position"; but because given the way the hand played, it was impossible for there to be action on the river, so the part of the rule stating "if there is no aggressive action on the river" is null and void imo. Obviously you can make the argument that position is then the way to go, but I think last aggressive action (which was the last possible aggressive action) should supercede it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hectorjelly

You can have the exact same situation in a tournament, button makes last aggressive action preflop (but not all in) and its checked to the river.

That's a completely and utterly different situation. There is the OPTION of aggressive action on the river in this case, in your original example there is not.

Also +1 to the delay of showing hands. Busquet and Negreanu had a bit of an argument on Twitter about it a while back. Busquet said something along the lines of "If you're first to show at a showdown, doing anything other than turning your hand face up or mucking is angle shooting, plain and simple". Whether or not he's completely correct in what he's saying, I think if that thinking became the standard it would at least speed things up at showdown. The sitting there saying "two pair" or "I'd say you have it" is very annoying.