Post by winterssuicide on Dec 22, 2017 15:52:48 GMT

Well I'll say this... if Rian Johnson hadn't taken a dump on the lore and mythos... and if he had listened to Mark Hamill about some suggestions for the Luke Skywalker character, this probably would've turned out to be a movie that would've been accepted by all of the fans.

I think if that had happened everyone would've forgiven the moments of over-the-top Disney humor. And some of the plot weaknesses.

Having said that, that still leaves one big elephant in the room: Rian Johnson opening all of those empty mystery boxes of JJ Abrams!

And when you look at some of the dynamics, that all seems to be by design. Johnson takes the role of the fall guy for opening most of Abrams empty mystery boxes in TLJ, and then he gets rewarded with his own trilogy: episodes 10 through 12.

I like the movie once you take away the 3 major issues: (1)opening empty mystery boxes (2)the subpar characterization of Luke (3)stretching the Force lore more towards Disney magic. But those are big issues.

This is pretty much my take as well. I could've even lived with Disney magic if they'd gotten Snoke and Luke right and delivered on at least a couple mysteries in a satisfactory way. I can take Carrie Poppins. I can take the Holdo/Ackbar misstep. I can take the SJW scenes with Rose. I can take the awkward humor. I can take the silly primary plot and the holes therein. I can even take walrus tits, nesting porgs and reptile nuns. If they'd just delivered even a passable version of Luke and a satisfactory direction with Snoke and given us a couple decent answer's to TFA's mysteries, my whole perspective on the movie would be different.

Post by mcufan on Dec 22, 2017 15:56:11 GMT

Well I'll say this... if Rian Johnson hadn't taken a dump on the lore and mythos... and if he had listened to Mark Hamill about some suggestions for the Luke Skywalker character, this probably would've turned out to be a movie that would've been accepted by all of the fans.

I think if that had happened everyone would've forgiven the moments of over-the-top Disney humor. And some of the plot weaknesses.

Having said that, that still leaves one big elephant in the room: Rian Johnson opening all of those empty mystery boxes of JJ Abrams!

And when you look at some of the dynamics, that all seems to be by design. Johnson takes the role of the fall guy for opening most of Abrams empty mystery boxes in TLJ, and then he gets rewarded with his own trilogy: episodes 10 through 12.

I like the movie once you take away the 3 major issues: (1)opening empty mystery boxes (2)the subpar characterization of Luke (3)stretching the Force lore more towards Disney magic. But those are big issues.

This is pretty much my take as well. I could've even lived with Disney magic if they'd gotten Snoke and Luke right and delivered on at least a couple mysteries in a satisfactory way. I can take Carrie Poppins. I can take the Holdo/Ackbar misstep. I can take the SJW scenes with Rose. I can take the awkward humor. I can take the silly primary plot and the holes therein. I can even take walrus tits, nesting porgs and reptile nuns. If they'd just delivered even a passable version of Luke and a satisfactory direction with Snoke and given us a couple decent answer's to TFA's mysteries, my whole perspective on the movie would be different.

waxer and winter sitting in a tree about the last jedi they always agree...

Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 22, 2017 16:19:21 GMT

Well I'll say this... if Rian Johnson hadn't taken a dump on the lore and mythos... and if he had listened to Mark Hamill about some suggestions for the Luke Skywalker character, this probably would've turned out to be a movie that would've been accepted by all of the fans.

I think if that had happened everyone would've forgiven the moments of over-the-top Disney humor. And some of the plot weaknesses.

Having said that, that still leaves one big elephant in the room: Rian Johnson opening all of those empty mystery boxes of JJ Abrams!

And when you look at some of the dynamics, that all seems to be by design. Johnson takes the role of the fall guy for opening most of Abrams empty mystery boxes in TLJ, and then he gets rewarded with his own trilogy: episodes 10 through 12.

I like the movie once you take away the 3 major issues: (1)opening empty mystery boxes (2)the subpar characterization of Luke (3)stretching the Force lore more towards Disney magic. But those are big issues.

This is pretty much my take as well. I could've even lived with Disney magic if they'd gotten Snoke and Luke right and delivered on at least a couple mysteries in a satisfactory way. I can take Carrie Poppins. I can take the Holdo/Ackbar misstep. I can take the SJW scenes with Rose. I can take the awkward humor. I can take the silly primary plot and the holes therein. I can even take walrus tits, nesting porgs and reptile nuns. If they'd just delivered even a passable version of Luke and a satisfactory direction with Snoke and given us a couple decent answer's to TFA's mysteries, my whole perspective on the movie would be different.

Post by winterssuicide on Dec 22, 2017 17:33:06 GMT

This is pretty much my take as well. I could've even lived with Disney magic if they'd gotten Snoke and Luke right and delivered on at least a couple mysteries in a satisfactory way. I can take Carrie Poppins. I can take the Holdo/Ackbar misstep. I can take the SJW scenes with Rose. I can take the awkward humor. I can take the silly primary plot and the holes therein. I can even take walrus tits, nesting porgs and reptile nuns. If they'd just delivered even a passable version of Luke and a satisfactory direction with Snoke and given us a couple decent answer's to TFA's mysteries, my whole perspective on the movie would be different.

waxer and winter sitting in a tree about the last jedi they always agree...

Post by winterssuicide on Dec 22, 2017 18:01:39 GMT

I loved him in Scream and The Craft, even though he played the same character sort of.

But that's the weird part, I thought he WAS good looking enough. In fact I thought it was the ONLY thing he had going for him LOL

Dreamy eyes, but a ratty mouth. There are two many leading men who have great smiles to go with their bedroom eyes to allow a snarl-tooth like Skeet to make it big. He was a teen heartthrob, but I don't think he did anything for the older ladies.

Post by MIZZOU on Dec 22, 2017 19:44:33 GMT

I didn't hate it, but I wasn't fond of it. Just a notch above TPM as being the worst in the saga, but I'll admit that for my money, ANH and TESB are the only two great movies of the bunch, the rest have all been varying degrees of mediocre to one extent or another.

Post by Ackbar Von Trapp on Dec 22, 2017 19:49:14 GMT

I honestly wasn't liking it too much at first. Poe's confrontation was too over the top. Carrie Poppins was dumb. Luke's initial scenes were anticlimactic. Then once the film got going, I did like it more. Disappointed that I think that Luke's character at the beginning was too much of a stretch for me to believe, but relieved that the character I saw at the end was quintessential Luke Skywalker, IMHO.

Not some revisionist Disney character nor some fanboy's dream of him being some sort of grand warrior, but a progression from the Luke I saw at the end of Return of the Jedi, maybe even more like Gary Kurtz's vision of him, literally "going off into the sunset".

Disappointed that Snoke's obviously deep dark past wasn't looked at in any way before he was sabered in two.

Interesting, I've gone from liking it a bit, to liking it more as each day passes as it digests... I may end up loving this one yet, flaws and all.

I still wonder what the prequels and sequels would've been like if Gary Kurtz hadn't been pushed away by Lucas. I think he deserves as much credit as George for the original trilogy, and Star Wars took a massive hit when he left.

We're caught in a TRAP. I can't turn back. Because I love you too much, baby!

Post by Ackbar Von Trapp on Dec 22, 2017 19:50:52 GMT

This is pretty much my take as well. I could've even lived with Disney magic if they'd gotten Snoke and Luke right and delivered on at least a couple mysteries in a satisfactory way. I can take Carrie Poppins. I can take the Holdo/Ackbar misstep. I can take the SJW scenes with Rose. I can take the awkward humor. I can take the silly primary plot and the holes therein. I can even take walrus tits, nesting porgs and reptile nuns. If they'd just delivered even a passable version of Luke and a satisfactory direction with Snoke and given us a couple decent answer's to TFA's mysteries, my whole perspective on the movie would be different.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I agree with yous guys as well.

Though the Ackbar misstep was unforgivable.

We're caught in a TRAP. I can't turn back. Because I love you too much, baby!

Post by homergreg on Dec 22, 2017 19:56:32 GMT

I honestly wasn't liking it too much at first. Poe's confrontation was too over the top. Carrie Poppins was dumb. Luke's initial scenes were anticlimactic. Then once the film got going, I did like it more. Disappointed that I think that Luke's character at the beginning was too much of a stretch for me to believe, but relieved that the character I saw at the end was quintessential Luke Skywalker, IMHO.

Not some revisionist Disney character nor some fanboy's dream of him being some sort of grand warrior, but a progression from the Luke I saw at the end of Return of the Jedi, maybe even more like Gary Kurtz's vision of him, literally "going off into the sunset".

Disappointed that Snoke's obviously deep dark past wasn't looked at in any way before he was sabered in two.

Interesting, I've gone from liking it a bit, to liking it more as each day passes as it digests... I may end up loving this one yet, flaws and all.

I still wonder what the prequels and sequels would've been like if Gary Kurtz hadn't been pushed away by Lucas. I think he deserves as much credit as George for the original trilogy, and Star Wars took a massive hit when he left.

No doubt about that! Had the ending for the OT that Kurtz was going for been done, I'm thinking we would have had the sequels many years ago.

Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 22, 2017 20:14:36 GMT

I still wonder what the prequels and sequels would've been like if Gary Kurtz hadn't been pushed away by Lucas. I think he deserves as much credit as George for the original trilogy, and Star Wars took a massive hit when he left.

No doubt about that! Had the ending for the OT that Kurtz was going for been done, I'm thinking we would have had the sequels many years ago.

What was that Kurtz ending, Luke going away to search for his sister?

I'm not sure about Kurtz, all these self aggrandizing figures who stand in the shadow of a greater mind, and when that is gone there are suddenly no big ideas or successes anymore, but a big mouth regarding the own importance. I think just like with Lucas editor-ex-wife who was hailed as the real savior of SW (or recently even JJ) this all is just a standard part of the iconoclastic backlash routine, happened with a lot greater minds than Lucas.

Post by homergreg on Dec 22, 2017 20:59:40 GMT

No doubt about that! Had the ending for the OT that Kurtz was going for been done, I'm thinking we would have had the sequels many years ago.

What was that Kurtz ending, Luke going away to search for his sister?

I'm not sure about Kurtz, all these self aggrandizing figures who stand in the shadow of a greater mind, and when that is gone there are suddenly no big ideas or successes anymore, but a big mouth regarding the own importance. I think just like with Lucas editor-ex-wife who was hailed as the real savior of SW (or recently even JJ) this all is just a standard part of the iconoclastic backlash routine, happened with a lot greater minds than Lucas.

But feel free to prove me wrong regarding Kurtz please.

Pretty sure Kurtz was pressing for Luke to ride off into the sunset, quite a bit disillusioned. I didn't hear the part about Leia not being the sister in his vision but it's 30 year old stuff, who really knows? It's hard to prove anyone wrong or right about Kurtz. It's all about "Point of View" right?

I'm just saying that a lesser "Happily Ever After" ending would have made for something easier to pick up later. Lucas was pretty adamant for years that his ending was just that, an ending, no more to tell. He knew that telling the story that included the original trio would be tough if you wanted the family drama to continue because there would be no family drama of the Star Wars level without blowing up the teddy bear picnic. And without family drama, it's just spaceships and explosions.

That doesn't mean I appreciate where Johnson took Luke to get there. Someone could have figured a way to give Luke a new personal hurdle to overcome from the Kylo debacle without such a fall and such a sketchy reason for falling that far and hard.

Maybe a Sith Temple could be put under Ahch-To and Luke was slowly overcome by the fumes of its evil and he wasn't himself until Rey and Yoda paid him a visit and caused him to overcome that hurdle. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket!

Post by audiosane on Dec 24, 2017 2:24:07 GMT

I'm with you. I'm not a Luke fanboy and so I wasn't following his media sound bytes leading up to the film, but watching them afterwards has been both enlightening, funny, sad and frustrating all at the same time.

Directors and writers don't often care for what actors might suggest about their characters, but in this case, maybe you should've listened to the guy who made the quintessential Star Wars character famous.

It's such a shame Mark Hamill didn't have a script approval stipulation put into his contract. While they remained true to Han Solo's nature/character in Episode 7, Episode 8 failed to that with Luke Skywalker. I was very excited when I read "Jedi Master Luke Skywalker" in the opening crawl, but that excitement quickly subsided the more I watched of Luke...now Han is dead, Luke is dead, Carrie is dead so no more Leia, and if they ever bring Billy Dee Williams back, I suspect they'll kill Lando off too...hell, they even got Ackbar.

The problem was, they used ANH Han for nostalgic purposes instead of ROTJ Han. ANH Han was selfish and didn't care much about others, which was perfect to set up Ben Solo turning to the dark side. ROTJ Han would give his life for his friends and even dedicate himself to the cause of the Rebellion. ROTJ Han would've done right by his son.

I move for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Kennedy's leadership.

Post by audiosane on Dec 24, 2017 2:30:41 GMT

- The handling of Luke Skywalker was abysmal. i.e. He throws the lightsaber away?!, he tries to kill a sleeping child (who happens to be his padawan and nephew on top of that), he's a sarcastic/cynical asshole to Rey while training her (imagine if Ben and Yoda had done that to Luke), he's arrogant ("dusts off his shoulder"), he doesn't immediately go to Leia after he hears about Han (Luke always would try to save his friends), etc. I hate that Han Solo died to protect Luke's location, so Luke could selfishly give up on some remote island by himself. He went there to die? Stupid. Honestly, I will never get that image of Luke milking the creature out of my head! The only Luke scene I did like was Luke & Leia together.

- I really liked Poe Dameron in Episode 7. In 8, they've managed to undo that for me. Poe orchestrates a mutiny? He's a terrible soldier for doing that. Then at the end of the whole thing, they don't even hold him accountable. What do we get instead? A line from Leia saying something along the lines of, "Oh that silly Poe Dameron. Such a kidder! I like him!" What the hell? I'm tired of seeing movies where mutinous, insubordinate characters get away with their reckless, disrespectful behavior.

I have so many issues with this movie. When at the beginning of the movie when Hux started asking if the Resistance could hear him giving orders, I got this feeling I was in for something bad...I was right. I don't hate Rian Johnson. I am disappointed with what he gave us though.

I'm sorry you greatly disliked TLJ, but I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy your response. Lots of great points made. So glad I made a note to get back to you on Luke, heh heh...

I move for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Kennedy's leadership.

Post by shinnickneth on Dec 24, 2017 23:48:20 GMT

It's such a shame Mark Hamill didn't have a script approval stipulation put into his contract. While they remained true to Han Solo's nature/character in Episode 7, Episode 8 failed to that with Luke Skywalker. I was very excited when I read "Jedi Master Luke Skywalker" in the opening crawl, but that excitement quickly subsided the more I watched of Luke...now Han is dead, Luke is dead, Carrie is dead so no more Leia, and if they ever bring Billy Dee Williams back, I suspect they'll kill Lando off too...hell, they even got Ackbar.

The problem was, they used ANH Han for nostalgic purposes instead of ROTJ Han. ANH Han was selfish and didn't care much about others, which was perfect to set up Ben Solo turning to the dark side. ROTJ Han would give his life for his friends and even dedicate himself to the cause of the Rebellion. ROTJ Han would've done right by his son.

Except that he decided to keep Rey/Finn on his ship after they mentioned Luke was in danger. Before that moment, he was going to ditch them. This shows concern for others and is quite selfless in nature.