You know... I think the owners here have the name of this particular form all wrong.

It should be changed to "Cop Worship" instead of "Cop Talk"...

Cuz its clear that all any of you guys want to hear is praise, worship and positive reinforcement from your peers. And when someone, anyone comes here and does not tow the party lien they are immediately case aside as a heretic or troll.

At least you're entertaining.

I've yet to see a post from you that's pro-LE.

You constantly post articles or links that are critical (at the least) of LE.

The only reason I have trouble thinking of you as LEO is that you rush to judgement too quickly. I can cite examples of you reading an article and taking a stance without having all the facts.

If you've been in LE for ANY amount of time, you know how often the press gets it right.

__________________
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

I might be a little more open minded than you think. Why do you think I am asking, rather than trashing you outright?

What is your motivation for posting this kind of propaganda, and yes, your posting history in general?

I've just become more critical of the profession over the years. We claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard. But what I've seen personally is the exact opposite.

More and more we are promoting the incompetent and incapable. The quality of new-hires has hit rock bottom and started to dig. We allow the bad officers to somehow skate while we punish the good ones who just make an honest mistake. We act in a manor that's sometimes, many times appalling.

Then we react surprised when the public lashes out at us, a public poll finds that 47% of the people polled no longer trust us. Or someone with a large megaphone writes articles such as this one.

Ignoring this will not make it go away. Facts do not cease to exist because we simply chose to ignore them.

More and more we are seeing criminals acts by ourselves being blasted all over youtube, et al... which does nothing but hurt the honest cops trying to do the right thing. And the whole idea of the one bad apple theory no longer passes the smell test.

We've been blaming the "one bad apple" for decades now and the official bad apple count has far exceeded the acceptable bad apple to bushel basket ratio. The argument no longer holds water when you begin to look at the sheer number and the magnitude of news stories in print and TV media today of misconduct and crimes committed by officers on a daily basis. And these are just the incidents that are reported in the media. Incidents from departments that are large enough to warrant media scrutiny.

Now this could be two fold.

First, its that incidents like this have been going on all these years, in the same numbers and rates. It took the internet to shine light upon the issue.

Or we are really are seeing a rise in cases of misconduct.

Which is it, I don't know.

But it is my experience that people rarely change regardless of occupation. There has to be consequences for bad behavior and those consequences have to be firm and permanent in order for them to make an impact.

The public hates us because of us... they didn't wake up one morning and just chose to start hating us. This is been growing for years and its getting worse.

We can't turn into Mr. Rogers and still do our job, that I completely understand. But if we don't find a middle ground to walk there will be a real War on Cops and all of us will be taking fire daily. The public is upset over the economy, over heavy handed government laws and regulations, traffic cameras, code enforcement, aggressive traffic enforcement and a rise in traffic related fines. And regardless of what the case may be, they are upset at us for enforcing such laws and regs. And see us as the oppressors.

When Rome fell it was the soldiers/law enforcers who bore the brunt of the publics rage. Those the public saw most and those who's face the public associated most with an out of control government.

I see the same problems as all the other guys do. The public no longer respects us and therefore tend to be more dynamic when dealing with us.

Here we once saw a car chase a month more or less. Now its two or three a week. Foot chases, resistances with force. We have seen 2 patrol cars vandalized recently.

You get to a call and no one wants to even acknowledge your presence muchless answer any questions you ask. Or take part in anything close to an on-scene investigation. Despite the fact that they called us.

Its a true problem, but I contend that the catalyst wasn't too much fluoride in the drinking water. It was us, they way we have conducted ourselves in recent history and how the public has perceived our actions recently.

Or, perhaps he is simply, "That guy". Maybe if he would verify his department employment or something.

__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."In God we trust, all others we monitor.

I have a different take I think he is really a cop, I have felt some of his sentiments I have seen and supervised a few bad cops that could not handle themselves and resorted to spray and stick before I ever would, but then I realized it was not their fault.

They have been allowed to thrive in our profession because of lax physical standards and poor training.

I started this job in 1983 with Guys that I would put up against anyone physically as far as holding their own when the chips were down.

I can look at our present state across the country today and say "not so much".

I am sure many/all of you here are in the "able to go " category and work at your craft to be effective at your job.

Problem is we do have "that guy and girl " working with us that got in this profession because they needed a job, not because they believed in what they were doing and that is very problematic, and why we see ourselves in the news painted in a bad light.

Do some stats say we are less likly to be attacked? maybe, but with the amount of training we have, the almost universal issue of protective vests, radio tracking ,GPS monitoring and advanced life support it does not surprise me we have less deaths, look at the number of soldiers that have been badly wonded making in back alive. We have become very adept at saving the heart lungs and brain...

I still see a local officer that made it out of a situation alive, but will never work again due to a brain injury after a shooting she made it out, but at what cost..

__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan

I've just become more critical of the profession over the years. We claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard. But what I've seen personally is the exact opposite.

More and more we are promoting the incompetent and incapable. The quality of new-hires has hit rock bottom and started to dig. We allow the bad officers to somehow skate while we punish the good ones who just make an honest mistake. We act in a manor that's sometimes, many times appalling.

Then we react surprised when the public lashes out at us, a public poll finds that 47% of the people polled no longer trust us. Or someone with a large megaphone writes articles such as this one.

Ignoring this will not make it go away. Facts do not cease to exist because we simply chose to ignore them.

More and more we are seeing criminals acts by ourselves being blasted all over youtube, et al... which does nothing but hurt the honest cops trying to do the right thing. And the whole idea of the one bad apple theory no longer passes the smell test.

We've been blaming the "one bad apple" for decades now and the official bad apple count has far exceeded the acceptable bad apple to bushel basket ratio. The argument no longer holds water when you begin to look at the sheer number and the magnitude of news stories in print and TV media today of misconduct and crimes committed by officers on a daily basis. And these are just the incidents that are reported in the media. Incidents from departments that are large enough to warrant media scrutiny.

Now this could be two fold.

First, its that incidents like this have been going on all these years, in the same numbers and rates. It took the internet to shine light upon the issue.

Or we are really are seeing a rise in cases of misconduct.

Which is it, I don't know.

But it is my experience that people rarely change regardless of occupation. There has to be consequences for bad behavior and those consequences have to be firm and permanent in order for them to make an impact.

The public hates us because of us... they didn't wake up one morning and just chose to start hating us. This is been growing for years and its getting worse.

We can't turn into Mr. Rogers and still do our job, that I completely understand. But if we don't find a middle ground to walk there will be a real War on Cops and all of us will be taking fire daily. The public is upset over the economy, over heavy handed government laws and regulations, traffic cameras, code enforcement, aggressive traffic enforcement and a rise in traffic related fines. And regardless of what the case may be, they are upset at us for enforcing such laws and regs. And see us as the oppressors.

When Rome fell it was the soldiers/law enforcers who bore the brunt of the publics rage. Those the public saw most and those who's face the public associated most with an out of control government.

I see the same problems as all the other guys do. The public no longer respects us and therefore tend to be more dynamic when dealing with us.

Here we once saw a car chase a month more or less. Now its two or three a week. Foot chases, resistances with force. We have seen 2 patrol cars vandalized recently.

You get to a call and no one wants to even acknowledge your presence muchless answer any questions you ask. Or take part in anything close to an on-scene investigation. Despite the fact that they called us.

Its a true problem, but I contend that the catalyst wasn't too much fluoride in the drinking water. It was us, they way we have conducted ourselves in recent history and how the public has perceived our actions recently.

It is a shame it took you three pages here and umpteen threads to articulate your opinion, but I'm glad you figured out how to communicate.

See, what you have in this little enclave of Glock Talk is a bunch of like minded cops who all represent the good in our profession. We are all gun friendly and respectful of the Constitution. I have personally met and maintain friendships with a number of folks here and I can tell you.... target somewhere else.

We all understand fundamentally what you are trying to say. We recognize we are our own worst enemy, wit regard to public perception and reaction.

Difference here between US and YOU is that we are experienced enough to know we cannot change other people by posting inflammatory articles on a cop forum. We are also professional enough to know that our own personal actions and levels of professionalism work in our favor and benefit in our own personal AORs.

Your soapbox grandstanding is little more than a self depreciating introspective into what's probably more wrong with you and less wrong with the rest of us.

I think I speak for everyone here (with over 10,000 posts in Cop Talk, I'd like to think so) when I ask that you take all of these anti-LE threads and cram them up your ass.

We come here to relax and shoot the **** and trade information and ideas, not to whip ourselves like Arthur Dimmsdale in the closet with a bloody scourge, because of some percieved NEW public opinion about why cops suck.

Newsflash, there have always been anti-cop anti-establishment types out there. They just didn't have an internet powered soapbox to spread their stupidity.

Seriously, take this place for what it is and act like the cop you claim to be, or GTFO.

__________________
Someone brought that up at a shooting I was involved in. I said he should have stopped. They said "what about Garner v. Tennessee."? I told them, " his name ain't Garner and we ain't in Tennessee!"

__________________
Someone brought that up at a shooting I was involved in. I said he should have stopped. They said "what about Garner v. Tennessee."? I told them, " his name ain't Garner and we ain't in Tennessee!"

...i have seen and supervised a few bad cops that could not handle themselves and resorted to spray and stick before i ever would, but then i realized it was not their fault.

They have been allowed to thrive in our profession because of lax physical standards and poor training.

I started this job in 1983 with guys that i would put up against anyone physically as far as holding their own when the chips were down.

I can look at our present state across the country today and say "not so much".

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsandi

more and more we are promoting the incompetent and incapable. The quality of new-hires has hit rock bottom and started to dig. We allow the bad officers to somehow skate while we punish the good ones who just make an honest mistake.

These two quoted parts make sense to me when I look back on how I was taught. In the academy, the emphasis was on theories, not application. They taught more about the theory of when to use what level of force for what situation than the actual ability to be effective in applying force.

Instead of giving ANY physical tests, the few things that were documented were done so just to measure progress. Progress was not graded, only recommended. However, PT and DT time was continually deducted from the curriculum to fit in more report writing (basic grammar and punctuation), ethics, and racial profiling training. With a GED or high school diploma, we should all be able to write a basic report. Any problems with a person in regard to ethics and being actively racist can not be taught or corrected in a few months at an academy. You are either racially motivated, or you're not. You either practice things ethically, or you don't. These things need to be checked by the hiring agency.

Throughout the beginning of grade school to the end of high school and what college I attended, it was drilled into my head that the only thing that mattered was learning enough to get a high paying job that commanded reverence. To aim for nothing short of upper management.

At the academy, I saw this mentality in full. Most of the people didn't care about knowing the knowledge on a subject. They just wanted to know the answers on the test. Most people only wanted the instructors to go over what would specifically be on the test.

At one time, tests may have been a measure of understanding on a subject. I have never seen it from a learning institution. Everything is about the written grade. Just having an "A" in something, sans understanding, is better than actually knowing the subject matter and receiving a "B".

LE, like most official measures in life, reward the book smart exclusively. However, in LE, the book smart don't fare as well as the street smart. Thus, they are promoted to management (ie. higher paid positions). This completes our circle of what should be sought after in life (per the teachings received by my generation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsandi

we've been blaming the "one bad apple" for decades now and the official bad apple count has far exceeded the acceptable bad apple to bushel basket ratio. The argument no longer holds water when you begin to look at the sheer number and the magnitude of news stories in print and tv media today of misconduct and crimes committed by officers on a daily basis. And these are just the incidents that are reported in the media. Incidents from departments that are large enough to warrant media scrutiny.

Now this could be two fold.

First, its that incidents like this have been going on all these years, in the same numbers and rates. It took the internet to shine light upon the issue.

Or we are really are seeing a rise in cases of misconduct.

Which is it, i don't know.

But it is my experience that people rarely change regardless of occupation. There has to be consequences for bad behavior and those consequences have to be firm and permanent in order for them to make an impact.

I don't think people are any more good or bad today than they have ever been. There is no profession that hasn't been grossly soiled by reports of those "bad apples".

Combine the facts that the most sensational stories (as mentioned in a previous post) make the most profitable news and the great loss in privacy of individuals' activities (due to technology); and you end up with a lot of skeletons being exposed that 30 years ago would have stayed buried do to a lack of shovels and a willingness to let the dead lie.

The trend today is to play a dirtier political game than in recent history, but the pendulum will always swing. This was not allowed decades ago. We can find accounts of such behavior in older documented history.

It is a shame it took you three pages here and umpteen threads to articulate your opinion, but I'm glad you figured out how to communicate.

See, what you have in this little enclave of Glock Talk is a bunch of like minded cops who all represent the good in our profession. We are all gun friendly and respectful of the Constitution. I have personally met and maintain friendships with a number of folks here and I can tell you.... target somewhere else.

We all understand fundamentally what you are trying to say. We recognize we are our own worst enemy, wit regard to public perception and reaction.

Difference here between US and YOU is that we are experienced enough to know we cannot change other people by posting inflammatory articles on a cop forum. We are also professional enough to know that our own personal actions and levels of professionalism work in our favor and benefit in our own personal AORs.

Your soapbox grandstanding is little more than a self depreciating introspective into what's probably more wrong with you and less wrong with the rest of us.

I think I speak for everyone here (with over 10,000 posts in Cop Talk, I'd like to think so) when I ask that you take all of these anti-LE threads and cram them up your ass.

We come here to relax and shoot the **** and trade information and ideas, not to whip ourselves like Arthur Dimmsdale in the closet with a bloody scourge, because of some percieved NEW public opinion about why cops suck.

Newsflash, there have always been anti-cop anti-establishment types out there. They just didn't have an internet powered soapbox to spread their stupidity.

Seriously, take this place for what it is and act like the cop you claim to be, or GTFO.

These two quoted parts make sense to me when I look back on how I was taught. In the academy, the emphasis was on theories, not application. They taught more about the theory of when to use what level of force for what situation than the actual ability to be effective in applying force.

Instead of giving ANY physical tests, the few things that were documented were done so just to measure progress. Progress was not graded, only recommended. However, PT and DT time was continually deducted from the curriculum to fit in more report writing (basic grammar and punctuation), ethics, and racial profiling training. With a GED or high school diploma, we should all be able to write a basic report. Any problems with a person in regard to ethics and being actively racist can not be taught or corrected in a few months at an academy. You are either racially motivated, or you're not. You either practice things ethically, or you don't. These things need to be checked by the hiring agency.

Throughout the beginning of grade school to the end of high school and what college I attended, it was drilled into my head that the only thing that mattered was learning enough to get a high paying job that commanded reverence. To aim for nothing short of upper management.

At the academy, I saw this mentality in full. Most of the people didn't care about knowing the knowledge on a subject. They just wanted to know the answers on the test. Most people only wanted the instructors to go over what would specifically be on the test.

At one time, tests may have been a measure of understanding on a subject. I have never seen it from a learning institution. Everything is about the written grade. Just having an "A" in something, sans understanding, is better than actually knowing the subject matter and receiving a "B".

LE, like most official measures in life, reward the book smart exclusively. However, in LE, the book smart don't fare as well as the street smart. Thus, they are promoted to management (ie. higher paid positions). This completes our circle of what should be sought after in life (per the teachings received by my generation).

I don't think people are any more good or bad today than they have ever been. There is no profession that hasn't been grossly soiled by reports of those "bad apples".

Combine the facts that the most sensational stories (as mentioned in a previous post) make the most profitable news and the great loss in privacy of individuals' activities (due to technology); and you end up with a lot of skeletons being exposed that 30 years ago would have stayed buried do to a lack of shovels and a willingness to let the dead lie.

The trend today is to play a dirtier political game than in recent history, but the pendulum will always swing. This was not allowed decades ago. We can find accounts of such behavior in older documented history.

This is an excellent post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSandi

Roger that, I'll stand down then.

Sorry for the ruffled feathers.

No apology necessary.

Feel free to remain and participate, by all means.

Just remember who your target audience is here and why we spend our off time in this strange corner of GT.

__________________
Someone brought that up at a shooting I was involved in. I said he should have stopped. They said "what about Garner v. Tennessee."? I told them, " his name ain't Garner and we ain't in Tennessee!"

I have a different take I think he is really a cop, I have felt some of his sentiments I have seen and supervised a few bad cops that could not handle themselves and resorted to spray and stick before I ever would, but then I realized it was not their fault.

They have been allowed to thrive in our profession because of lax physical standards and poor training.

I started this job in 1983 with Guys that I would put up against anyone physically as far as holding their own when the chips were down.

I can look at our present state across the country today and say "not so much".

I am sure many/all of you here are in the "able to go " category and work at your craft to be effective at your job.

Problem is we do have "that guy and girl " working with us that got in this profession because they needed a job, not because they believed in what they were doing and that is very problematic, and why we see ourselves in the news painted in a bad light.

Do some stats say we are less likly to be attacked? maybe, but with the amount of training we have, the almost universal issue of protective vests, radio tracking ,GPS monitoring and advanced life support it does not surprise me we have less deaths, look at the number of soldiers that have been badly wonded making in back alive. We have become very adept at saving the heart lungs and brain...

I still see a local officer that made it out of a situation alive, but will never work again due to a brain injury after a shooting she made it out, but at what cost..

I agree that he may be a cop, but completely disagree with what you are saying about physical conditioning having anything to do with bad cops.

Right now we have a "cop" sitting in our jail on a million dollar bond for beating the ever-loving piss out of his girlfriend, yanking the phone out of the wall while she was on 911, and holding her hostage for three hours. He's extremely fit and at one time was a street-smart cop. He's an absolute piece of garbage and an embarrassment to our profession. This is his third arrest in as many years.

Then there are the various other media-sensationalized "bad cops" out there. Not a single one that I've seen has been some pretzel-dust covered fatass.

To the contrary, instead of hyper-analyzing the caloric intake of recruits, worrying over getting that mile and a half run in EXACTLY 16 minutes and 48 seconds, we worry more about the moral character of the person we are hiring, the ability of their comprehension of what their duties will be, and whether or not they possess a spine. Then we will worry about if they can scale a fence and run a mile and a half.