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The port rim is brightened, especially the far port (left). The beginnings of the fireball has increased the rim lighting.

I just realized what you call "brightening" is, in fact, the fireball itself. This is incorrect: the "far port" of the impulse deck is not even visible behind the fireball and certainly isn't "brightened" by it.

You're also failing to account for the fact that the that same flash illuminates the starboard side of the bridge dome in the same frame, and the fact that the starboard side of the impulse deck is illuminated by the glow from the impact point.

Upon further look, that initial explosion glow is just simple glare. The problem with the torpedo exploding directly between the impulse deck and the bridge module is the lack of light hitting the front of the impulse deck. However, the light spillage we see is consistent with glare.

Based on the trajectory, the torpedo would've detonated to the port side of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

They ARE trained on how to fire it. That's what simulators are for (and also battle drills in the field). Training vessels are not for teaching cadets how to use the ship's weapons, they're for teaching them how to MAINTAIN them on a day to day basis.

Unless they're Starfleet Training vessels in TWOK's time where they are trained to fire live torpedoes at target drones. You thought they shouldn't carry live torpedoes in the first place but since they do then why couldn't they practice firing live ammo?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Another real world parallel: aviators on training carriers do not conduct scramble drills, mock airstrikes or air-to-air engagement practices. They use those carriers mainly to practice LANDING.

Not everything must exactly parallel real world.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

And 90% of the crew isn't involved in ANY of those operations. Moreover, even the 30 to 40 people on board who ARE involved spend the majority of their time performing other shipboard duties between planets; your starship will be in space for weeks, sometimes months at a time before it ever gets near another planet.

In TOS, it only took days (not weeks) to go from planet to planet. There's plenty of opportunity to go planetside.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

THAT is what training ships are for: not to teach trainees the exciting parts of their job, but the boring/repetitive/tedious jobs that make the exciting part possible in the first place.
It's not until the advent of holodecks a century later that Starfleet officers can spend the bulk of their free time dicking around on the holodeck.

I think you're shooting too low. Of course they have to learn the boring stuff, but they have a fully operational ship like the Enterprise so it would be unusual for cadets not to practice all their jobs while in space. And to the holodeck point, the lack of holodecks would push to more real training instead of simulations.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

They were still TRAINEES to be sure. Their status doesn't change just because their ship got commandeered by an Admiral to take care of what was expected to be a minor emergency.

Ah now they're trainees being trained on an active duty ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

That would be Lieutenant Saavik, the ship's only command school candidate, who is already an officer in Starfleet.

She maybe an officer but how do we know she's not still a cadet?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

That's just it: if the Klingons were going to take out Gorkon it would be, by definition, an inside job. Enterprise was there as a deterrent to keep the Klingons from trying something. That deterrent failed.

Deterrent would just be a part of the escort mission. Since there was no conventional attack made, being a deterrent worked and it required a group of insiders sabotaging the mission and framing the Enterprise as the attacker.

SPOCK: We have volunteered to rendezvous with the Klingon vessel that is bringing Chancellor Gorkon to Earth, and to escort him safely through Federation space.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Obviously Starfleet didn't expect General Chang or somebody to send a whole squadron of warships after Gorkon (as Duras did when he went after Gowron) because a single starship wouldn't be able to handle that situation anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know how the Enterprise would fair against 2 or 3 Klingon warships in a straight up fight at that time.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Until you are able to show the Enterprise failing against a conventional attack...

Nothing needs to be shown.

Because you can't prove that the Enterprise would fail against a conventional attack. I don't even think you can show the Enterprise is even obsolete.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Enterprise was inadequate for the task it was assigned.

If you mean by internal sabotaging, then yes.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

The reasons for it are many and nuanced, but it remains the fact that her being assigned to escort duty is NOT evidence that it was still front line material.

That's doesn't make sense. Why would the Federation assign a non-front-line ship to escort Gorkon then? It's not like Cartright was making the decision as he's called out by the CinC as being against it. They had plenty of time to assign a different ship, one that could be more "front-line" than what you think the Enterprise is.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Plot armor trumps arguments of being obsolete

An obsolete starship equipped with plot armor remains obsolete, even if it IS totally bad ass. Indeed, the only thing more powerful than plot armor is technobabble.

Upon further look, that initial explosion glow is just simple glare. The problem with the torpedo exploding directly between the impulse deck and the bridge module is the lack of light hitting the front of the impulse deck.

There's CONSIDERABLE lighting of the front/starboard ring of the impulse deck in the frames immediately after the explosion and immediately before the "secondary sparks" begin to manifest themselves. And even then, some of the lighting effect remains visible on the starboard side of the bridge.

Unless they're Starfleet Training vessels in TWOK's time where they are trained to fire live torpedoes at target drones.

You mean the target drones you just totally made up off from your own imagination, purely for the sake of argument?

In TOS, it only took days (not weeks) to go from planet to planet.

Not usually, no. Especially when you consider the Enterprise' missions didn't always involve beaming down to a planet.

I think you're shooting too low. Of course they have to learn the boring stuff, but they have a fully operational ship like the Enterprise so it would be unusual for cadets not to practice all their jobs while in space.

They ARE practicing their jobs while in space. For 90% of the crew, their jobs are tedious and boring manual labor over extended periods of time while the senior officers and a random selection of specialists do all the exciting work planetside (or sitting at your duty stations minding your own business until a malevolent demigod decides to turn you inside out for no reason).

Ah now they're trainees being trained on an active duty ship.

Are you being sloppy with your terms again or are you under the impression that "training ship" and "active duty" are mutually exclusive?

She maybe an officer but how do we know she's not still a cadet?

Because she's a commissioned officer with a standing rank within Starfleet's normal chain of command. If Kirk granted field commissions to every noncom on the ship, Saavik would still outrank them.

More importantly, she goes from the Enterprise training mission straight to science officer on the Grissom without returning to the Academy. The other trainees are all noncoms and enlisted men (they were never at the Academy in the first place) but in Saavik's case, it would seem really odd. Why does she get to skip graduation and go straight to a prestigious new assignment?

The answer is painted on Saavik's collar: Starts out red, switches to white, and she doesn't even get promoted in the meantime. This means Saavik has qualified for transfer to the Command Division through her performance on the Enterprise, which is pretty much the same transition Deanna Troi went through on the Enterprise-D.

Deterrent would just be a part of the escort mission. Since there was no conventional attack made, being a deterrent worked and it required a group of insiders sabotaging the mission and framing the Enterprise as the attacker.

The thing is, Enterprise wouldn't be all that effective in preventing a conventional attack. Certainly less so than a more advanced starship.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know how the Enterprise would fair against 2 or 3 Klingon warships in a straight up fight at that time.

That's because Enterprise has never BEEN in a straight up fight with 2 to 3 Klingon warships, either before or after the refit. It's successors certainly did, though, and in almost every case where this happened, they wound up getting pwned.

Because you can't prove that the Enterprise would fail against a conventional attack. I don't even think you can show the Enterprise is even obsolete.

They decommissioned it literally days after its last (and arguably most successful) combat mission, at which point it is quite possibly the very last Constitution class ship still in service. If it's not obsolete, it's pretty damn close.

That's doesn't make sense. Why would the Federation assign a non-front-line ship to escort Gorkon then?

Why would the Chancelor of the high council fly to Earth on a 100-year-old battle cruiser?

It's not like Cartright was making the decision as he's called out by the CinC as being against it. They had plenty of time to assign a different ship, one that could be more "front-line" than what you think the Enterprise is.

You're forgetting that Spock personally laid the groundwork for the diplomatic efforts himself and "personally vouched" for Kirk in his behalf. Again, that's the factor of Kirk's reputation: Gorkon knows Kirk is both hated and respected among Klingons as a formidable foe, and he knows that if he gets anyone else to escort him to Earth it'll look like a sign of weakness among his rivals. Instead of appearing to run to the Federation to beg them for help in the face of disaster, he instead meets the Federation's most famous warrior on his most famous ship and they travel to Earth to talk about what to do next.

And more powerful than technobabble is the hero captain

And there's our answer.

The reason there are so few Constitution class starships in the 24th century is because they are designed to be badass-hero: their primary power source is a badass Captain capable of imbuing it with his personal gravitas.

Mirandas were designed from the beginning to be badass-normal: they perform just the same no matter who's at the helm. With more powerful badass-hero ships like Excelsior coming out, the Constitutions were not suited to carry on in a rear-line role and the Mirandas and Constellations filled her mid-range exploration field.

Upon further look, that initial explosion glow is just simple glare. The problem with the torpedo exploding directly between the impulse deck and the bridge module is the lack of light hitting the front of the impulse deck.

There's CONSIDERABLE lighting of the front/starboard ring of the impulse deck in the frames immediately after the explosion and immediately before the "secondary sparks" begin to manifest themselves. And even then, some of the lighting effect remains visible on the starboard side of the bridge.

That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Unless they're Starfleet Training vessels in TWOK's time where they are trained to fire live torpedoes at target drones.

You mean the target drones you just totally made up off from your own imagination, purely for the sake of argument?

Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"

So a training ship like the Enterprise wouldn't be carrying training equipment from our imaginations but live, working gear. I'm good with that.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Not usually, no. Especially when you consider the Enterprise' missions didn't always involve beaming down to a planet.

Sure, but they can visit one after a few days.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

They ARE practicing their jobs while in space. For 90% of the crew, their jobs are tedious and boring manual labor over extended periods of time while the senior officers and a random selection of specialists do all the exciting work planetside (or sitting at your duty stations minding your own business until a malevolent demigod decides to turn you inside out for no reason).

Then by practicing all their jobs in space, the ones that need to beam down to survey or get scanning equipment ready to explore some random planet from orbit would get to do that. What's the problem with that?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Are you being sloppy with your terms again or are you under the impression that "training ship" and "active duty" are mutually exclusive?

In TWOK, apparently they are. Spock did say that the ship was not on "active duty." I do agree that trainees can still get training on an active duty ship fitted with live gear.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Because she's a commissioned officer with a standing rank within Starfleet's normal chain of command. If Kirk granted field commissions to every noncom on the ship, Saavik would still outrank them.

That doesn't answer whether she was still a cadet or not.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

More importantly, she goes from the Enterprise training mission straight to science officer on the Grissom without returning to the Academy. The other trainees are all noncoms and enlisted men (they were never at the Academy in the first place) but in Saavik's case, it would seem really odd. Why does she get to skip graduation and go straight to a prestigious new assignment?

Kirk as a cadet went to Axanar on a peace mission. It doesn't sound unusual for cadets to go out on field missions.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

The answer is painted on Saavik's collar: Starts out red, switches to white, and she doesn't even get promoted in the meantime. This means Saavik has qualified for transfer to the Command Division through her performance on the Enterprise, which is pretty much the same transition Deanna Troi went through on the Enterprise-D.

She's red throughout the entire TWOK movie so she's still a cadet then. She only gets a white shirt when she's in TSFS and it could very well be possible that she graduated. Perhaps all she needed was a beam down mission to check off the last of her graduation requirements

Crazy Eddie wrote:

The thing is, Enterprise wouldn't be all that effective in preventing a conventional attack. Certainly less so than a more advanced starship.

What proof do you have that she wouldn't be effective against a conventional attack and that she is less advanced?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

That's because Enterprise has never BEEN in a straight up fight with 2 to 3 Klingon warships, either before or after the refit. It's successors certainly did, though, and in almost every case where this happened, they wound up getting pwned.

Her successors are not the same Enterprise we're talking about. As you've pointed out she's never been in a straight up fight with 2 to 3 Klingon warships so you don't know. (She has been against 4 sister ships under M5 in "The Ultimate Computer", fired on by 10 Romulan ships in "The Deadly Years" and exposed to fire from 8 Klingon warships in "Errand of Mercy".

Crazy Eddie wrote:

They decommissioned it literally days after its last (and arguably most successful) combat mission, at which point it is quite possibly the very last Constitution class ship still in service. If it's not obsolete, it's pretty damn close.

Or she might've been scheduled to be replaced when they finished the Enterprise-B? There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Why would the Chancelor of the high council fly to Earth on a 100-year-old battle cruiser?

Hey, if you're willing to ask that question then why would the Federation send an obsolete ship to escort him?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

It's not like Cartright was making the decision as he's called out by the CinC as being against it. They had plenty of time to assign a different ship, one that could be more "front-line" than what you think the Enterprise is.

You're forgetting that Spock personally laid the groundwork for the diplomatic efforts himself and "personally vouched" for Kirk in his behalf.

He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

And more powerful than technobabble is the hero captain

And there's our answer.

The reason there are so few Constitution class starships in the 24th century is because they are designed to be badass-hero: their primary power source is a badass Captain capable of imbuing it with his personal gravitas.

Mirandas were designed from the beginning to be badass-normal: they perform just the same no matter who's at the helm. With more powerful badass-hero ships like Excelsior coming out, the Constitutions were not suited to carry on in a rear-line role and the Mirandas and Constellations filled her mid-range exploration field.

Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role? It's not like there was a Reliant-Excelsior that came along so the Reliants were kept around because no better replacement came along.

That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.

The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.

It remains far more relevant that the only thing that IS lit by the initial flash is the starboard side of the bridge module. That means that at the moment of detonation, the torpedo was still a considerable distance to starboard of the centerline. That being true, there is no longer much of anything to indicate an impact point on the port side.

Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"

You mean I'm IMAGINING the U.S. Navy uses recoverable torpedoes?

Then by practicing all their jobs in space, the ones that need to beam down to survey or get scanning equipment ready to explore some random planet from orbit would get to do that. What's the problem with that?

Because they've already been trained how to do that at the Academy. You go on training missions to practice the things you CAN'T learn at the Academy, namely operating a starship on a day-to-day basis. The flight's only supposed to three weeks long; there's a lot for them to learn already without trying to squeeze an away mission into the schedule.

More importantly: the enlisted crewmen will never go on an away mission -- EVER -- unless they become officers. They practice some maneuvers with shuttlecraft, and they're certain to practice EVAs a couple dozen times. But away missions are the exclusive territory of senior officers for whom far more intensive training has already been completed before they ever stepped foot on the ship.

This is a mission for Saavik to learn how to pilot a starship out of space dock; it's a mission for the new helmsmen and security officers to conduct shipboard intruder drills, fire drills, damage control drills, interception drills, decompression drills, medical emergencies, etc. It's a mission for the engineering team on the bridge to get used to having to coordinate with the chief engineer below decks, keep track of his duty rotations, get used to starship cooking, keeping his quarters in order, then going back on duty hours later and keeping track of what the last watchstander left for him to do.

Again, I'm projecting real-world realities onto Starfleet, but it would remain the case that the away missions and ground surveys are a miniscule part of normal starship operations. It takes four hundred people to run a ship the size of the Enterprise; it only takes six to visit a planet.

Spock did say that the ship was not on "active duty."

Spock said nothing of the kind. He says "If we were to go on active duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."

He is referring to the trainees, who are not technically active members of Starfleet yet. Sulu, McCoy, Uhura, Kirk and Spock ARE on active duty and arguably so is Saavik. The Enterprise, also, is a starship deployed on active duty despite the fact that most of its CREW are not.

Removing a ship from active duty is called "decommissioning" or at the very least placing that vessel in reserve. It wouldn't even leave Earth orbit in that case, let alone carry live gear.

That doesn't answer whether she was still a cadet or not.

It does, actually. A Lieutenant in Starfleet is not a cadet (technically, neither is an ensign).

She's red throughout the entire TWOK movie so she's still a cadet then.

Assuming red actually MEANS "cadet."

What proof do you have that she wouldn't be effective against a conventional attack and that she is less advanced?

Because
1) We have seen the Enterprise come under conventional attack four different times in the movie era. All four times, she took heavy damage and on one of those occasions was thoroughly disabled.
2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time. They can apparently survive on even terms, but two-or more means a loosing battle; the ship either runs for its life ("The Deadly Years") or it succumbs ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Rascals").

The only thing Enterprise really has going for it is Kirk's reputation and the fact that Gorkon requested him by name. Chang could have just as easily sent three Birds of Prey after Kronos-1 and killed everyone on both ships. But Chang didn't want a dead Chancellor, a wanted a war with the Federation.

Her successors are not the same Enterprise we're talking about.

True. They are CONSIDERABLY more advanced and more powerful. And they still loose at those odds.

Or she might've been scheduled to be replaced when they finished the Enterprise-B? There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology.

"All the other ships?" What other ships in the fleet other than Enterprise received that kind of upgrade? We've only ever SEEN two constitution class vessels in all of the movie era and both of them are named "Enterprise."

Hey, if you're willing to ask that question then why would the Federation send an obsolete ship to escort him?

Old ship gets an old escort. What can I say? Symbolism is almost as important as reputation when it comes to Klingons.

He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.

The ship WASN'T up to par and they sent it anyway. Symoblic gesture is symbolic.

Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role?

No, I'm pretty sure the Constellations did that. The Excelsiors filled a totally new role that the Constitutions were probably never suited for in the first place.

Put that another way: Mirandas are suitable for six-month to one-year mission in local space. Constitutions (and later, Constellations) can handle a five year mission out on the frontier. Excelsiors and Ambassadors can manage upwards of ten years, while the Galaxy class can cruise around for a generation.

The Constitution design was probably first constructed when that mid-tier "five year mission" was the farthest that any starship would ever get from Earth; fifty years later, they're probing far deeper than before, and the mid-tier starships of the previous generation are mismatched for the environment in which they now operate; they're going to be doing a lot less exploring and a lot more law enforcement, security patrol, search and rescue, engineering support and humanitarian relief. The "Five Year Mission" zone is no longer the frontier, but has instead become the suburbs. Constitution, with its high-powered deflector dish and scientific survey equipment, is a rugged "all-terrain vehicle" in an environment that really needs high-speed patrol cars and vans with lots of trunk space.

I think it was Timo who first suggested the the Constellation was essentially TOS-era tech taken to the limit of its application; you want a ship with greater abilities than what you have but are confined by the limitations of the technology itself, so you make a numerical increase. It makes sense to me.

What exactly defines a "hero" ship anyway? Picard flew Stargazer.

__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q

That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.

The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.

The initial explosion put a green glare to the right almost to the "U" of USS. If the explosion point was at the back of the bridge at "1701" as you've described then the light would have easily lit up the front of the impulse deck.

Instead it does not and therefor it cannot be where you think it exploded and it is further away from the camera putting the explosion on the port side of the impulse deck. What you're seeing is simply glare.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"

You mean I'm IMAGINING the U.S. Navy uses recoverable torpedoes?

I mean you're IMAGINING the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. I thought I could imagine with you on the target drones, but I'm back to, nah, they'll just fire at random asteroids.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Because they've already been trained how to do that at the Academy. You go on training missions to practice the things you CAN'T learn at the Academy, namely operating a starship on a day-to-day basis.

Based on that, you also CAN'T learn at the Academy how to explore a planet from a starship.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

The flight's only supposed to three weeks long; there's a lot for them to learn already without trying to squeeze an away mission into the schedule.

That's not a good excuse when the ship can visit planets every few days. 3 Weeks is good for at least 3 planets.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

More importantly: the enlisted crewmen will never go on an away mission -- EVER -- unless they become officers.

Is a "Yeoman" an enlisted crewman? If so, we do see Yeomans go on away missions. We might even see enlisted crewman go on away missions to perform damage control on another ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

This is a mission for Saavik to learn how to pilot a starship out of space dock; it's a mission for the new helmsmen and security officers to conduct shipboard intruder drills, fire drills, damage control drills, interception drills, decompression drills, medical emergencies, etc. It's a mission for the engineering team on the bridge to get used to having to coordinate with the chief engineer below decks, keep track of his duty rotations, get used to starship cooking, keeping his quarters in order, then going back on duty hours later and keeping track of what the last watchstander left for him to do.

And for Saavik to go on an away mission

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Again, I'm projecting real-world realities onto Starfleet, but it would remain the case that the away missions and ground surveys are a miniscule part of normal starship operations. It takes four hundred people to run a ship the size of the Enterprise; it only takes six to visit a planet.

We do know 172 were at duty stations and 248 were off duty and 11 in sickbay in TMP. If we were to assume that half were on watch at that time because of the V'ger situation then the ship really only needs 344. The other 86 are non-essential to the ship and probably available to be sent to the planet. And even if they were essential to the ship - they could still get sent down. In "Arena" Kirk dropped off 30 medical personnel onto the planet before taking off in pursuit of the Gorn ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Spock said nothing of the kind. He says "If we were to go on active duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."

You're right but for the wrong quote. He said, "actual duty".

SPOCK: As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command.

It could very well be that the ship was still on "active duty" but not "actually" doing anything active.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

It does, actually. A Lieutenant in Starfleet is not a cadet (technically, neither is an ensign).

Since we don't know how high a rank a cadet can hold in Starfleet, we don't know, actually.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Assuming red actually MEANS "cadet."

We have a reason to assume red means cadet. She's wearing it at the beginning of the movie where "cadets" were being rated in the bridge simulator. Since Saavik felt the test was unfair to her then it's a good bet that she's a cadet.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Because
1) We have seen the Enterprise come under conventional attack four different times in the movie era. All four times, she took heavy damage and on one of those occasions was thoroughly disabled.

Let's see in the movie era for Kirk's Enterprise:
1. TMP - V'ger was all powerful. Doubtful that this was conventional. Minor damage.
2. TWOK - Reliant surprise attack crippled her before she could raise shields. Doubtful that this was conventional as it came from a supposedly friendly ship. Crippled.
3. TSFS - Not fully repaired from her TWOK battle, her automation systems fail as she tried to raise shields. Not sure how this could be conventional since she wasn't battle ready in the first place. Self-destructed.
4. TVH - No Enterprise.
5. TFF - She was caught with her shields down while her attention was focused on the planet below. Not her finest hour. Minor damage.
6. TUC - Suffered damage from multiple torpedo hits from fire-while-cloaked BOP prototype. Didn't do too bad and still got the enemy ship. Minor to moderate damage.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time.

You're forgetting:
1. "Errand of Mercy" - multiple Klingon ships attacked Enterprise while she was orbiting Organia. She safely withdrew back to the fleet.
2. "The Deadly Years" - 10 Romulan ships were attacking her while flying through the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight but her shields were holding for the duration of the attack. She escaped after Kirk tricked them into backing off.

That's definitely more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

They can apparently survive on even terms, but two-or more means a loosing battle; the ship either runs for its life ("The Deadly Years")

Given the situation in "The Deadly Years", it had to leave. They were already in the wrong for entering the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight to reduce the number of enemy ships. There only option was to find a way to retreat.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

or it succumbs ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Rascals").

Those are two different Enterprises against a different era of enemy ships. How those fair isn't the same comparison to the Enterprise under Kirk.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

The only thing Enterprise really has going for it is Kirk's reputation and the fact that Gorkon requested him by name.

Gorkon requested him by name? I thought Spock volunteered them?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Chang could have just as easily sent three Birds of Prey after Kronos-1 and killed everyone on both ships. But Chang didn't want a dead Chancellor, a wanted a war with the Federation.

In TSFS, according to Kruge the Enterprise out-gunned him 10-1. In "Elaan of Troyius", 6 torpedoes was enough to send a Klingon Battlecruiser home running. I'd argue that the Enterprise during Kirk's time enjoyed a huge advantage over the Klingons. 3 standard BOPs wouldn't have had much chance.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

True. They are CONSIDERABLY more advanced and more powerful. And they still loose at those odds.

I'm dubious of more powerful. In anycase, they're not Kirk's Enterprise.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

"All the other ships?" What other ships in the fleet other than Enterprise received that kind of upgrade? We've only ever SEEN two constitution class vessels in all of the movie era and both of them are named "Enterprise."

I wrote, "There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology. "

"All the other ships" is in reference to just that, all the other ships that have been upgraded to keep up with the technology like the gazillions of Reliants and Excelsiors in DS9's time. I was not referring to TMP's "redesign and refit".

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Old ship gets an old escort. What can I say? Symbolism is almost as important as reputation when it comes to Klingons.

LOL. Klingon stories go better when they can say, "and yes, the Federation feared Gorkon so much that they sent the might Excelsior under Kirk's command to meet with him." OTOH, the Enterprise could've still been close to the Excelsior in firepower, so still good for Klingon musicals.

Crazy Eddie wrote:

He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.

The ship WASN'T up to par and they sent it anyway. Symoblic gesture is symbolic.

Again, what proof do you have that the ship wasn't up to par?

Crazy Eddie wrote:

Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role?

No, I'm pretty sure the Constellations did that. The Excelsiors filled a totally new role that the Constitutions were probably never suited for in the first place.

It's not like there was a Reliant-Excelsior that came along so the Reliants were kept around because no better replacement came along.

That's what I see the Centaur-class as - basically the Excelsior generation version of the Miranda; just, for whatever reason, the Mirandas weren't (evidently) completely replaced like the Connie.

And as far as the Constellation-class goes, that seems more like a fast transport/assault craft (for SCIENCE! ) of some sort than a Hero Ship Cruiser.

Oh yeah, the Centaur. It was using something like an Excelsior-style saucer but the rollbar of the Reliant for nacelle pylons and hybrid Reliant-Excelsior super-slim nacelles. Perhaps it was too custom to be mass-produced? Or maybe it's lack of dual shuttle bays in the back limited it's usefulness?

Praetor wrote:

...and we didn't exactly see a ton of Centaurs did we?

I think it was Timo who first suggested the the Constellation was essentially TOS-era tech taken to the limit of its application; you want a ship with greater abilities than what you have but are confined by the limitations of the technology itself, so you make a numerical increase. It makes sense to me.

Which is interesting since Picard complained that it was underpowered. "Peak Performance" showed the ship to have only one bulky warp core. Still, she seemed pretty roomy with thick primary hull.

Praetor wrote:

What exactly defines a "hero" ship anyway? Picard flew Stargazer.

Well, at the time if the Battle at Maxia, Picard wasn't a "hero character" so the Stargazer was fodder. Now put Picard on a shuttlecraft and see how much longer it'll survive against a Jem'hedar attack than say Captain No-name

I don't have much to add to the other ongoing discussion regarding the cadet mission, but I would like to point out a line from the original script of "In Thy Image" from before it became TMP.

When Lt. Xon, Spock's replacement, beams on board, he's unrecognizable as a Vulcan. Paraphrasing, Kirk sees Xon's Lieutenant stripes and tells McCoy "He's yours," to which McCoy replies, "He's yours. Vulcans also graduate as Lieutenants." So the it would appear to be the intention that medical officers and Vulcans get to jump straight to lieutenant when they graduate, in the case of medical officers perhaps reflective of additional medical education achieved separately from the Academy. In the case of Vulcans, who knows. Maybe they're able to handle additional honors courses that let them jump. Anyhoo, perhaps this explains Saavik.

OTOH, as others have suggested, perhaps Saavik was a command school cadet, and had already been through the regular Academy?

blssdwlf wrote:

Which is interesting since Picard complained that it was underpowered. "Peak Performance" showed the ship to have only one bulky warp core. Still, she seemed pretty roomy with thick primary hull.

Wasn't it in "The Battle" that Picard complained, and about the Stargazer? "She was an overworked, underpowered vessel..." I think. Perhaps he meant the four engines were underpowered by the warp core? Might explain why we didn't see many of them. Regarding that thick hull, if we accept the garage door looking details as hangars, as appears to be the case, she may be more hollow inside than we think.

blssdwlf wrote:

Well, at the time if the Battle at Maxia, Picard wasn't a "hero character" so the Stargazer was fodder. Now put Picard on a shuttlecraft and see how much longer it'll survive against a Jem'hadar attack than say Captain No-name

I guess what I was trying to suggest was moreso that the Stargazer didn't appear to be on the low level of, say, a Lantree. From outward appearances, Stargazer appeared well-armed at least.

__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q

It was in Relics where Picard complained about the Stargazer being overworked and underpowered. But he also described her "always on the verge of flying apart". He was probably exaggerating a bit, and there's the whole fact that he was in command for well over 20 years. By the end of that commission, she probably hadn't seen a major refurbishment or rebuilding, which might explain Picard's belief in her being underpowered and overworked. Perhaps other Constellation class ships got new warp cores or other upgrades if they weren't on super deep space assignments like Stargazer.

__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q

I'm not familiar with Picard's 20 year command of the Stargazer (where does that come from?).

I know that he took over once when the Captain of the Stargazer was killed. And that it was damaged by Cardassians when he was ordered to approach them with a truce and had to retreat. And 9 years prior to "The Battle" it was abandoned after destroying a Ferengi ship. If he was back near Cardassian space it would sound like he would have opportunities to get the ship refit and upgraded.

As I recall, the timing of his battlefield assumption of command was dated to 2333 in "Tapestry," and Jack Crusher was killed under his command on the ship in 2354. A year later, the Battle of Maxia happened and she was presumed lost.

I have always wondered if Picard actually immediately gained command of the ship in 2333, of if there might actually be a loophole through which he gets to become XO before gaining permanent command. He was a Lieutenant Commander at the time, and twenty years is a long time to command a ship.

__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q