I conducted a couple more test bakes yesterday. One using KAAP and one with Kyrol. The first two pictures are pies using Occident flour, which I really liked last week, as sort of a "control" bake. The second two pies are KAAP and Kyrol, respectively. The results at this point have the Kyrol pie in the lead for me, even better than the Occident pies I liked so well last week. I got better browning and crispness and even a better all around flavor with the Kyrol flour. So, the first two are occident flour.....

scott123

Steve, I can't speak for crispiness, but more protein=faster browning, so, from a browning perspective, it's not entirely fair to judge flours with different protein levels side by side in the same formulation. If you're going to judge the occident or the kaap against the kyrol, you'll need to compensate for the lower protein with either more sugar or a longer ferment.

Also, a large component of the 13ish % protein vs. 14% protein comparison is crust consistency after it's cooled a bit. No matter how hard you try to make sure everyone gets a piping hot slice, some of your customers will end up consuming pizza that's going to be anywhere between lukewarm and room temp. It is here where the 14% kyrol (and All Trumps and KASL) start to show their failings by producing a tough crust. This toughness can be mitigated with extreme underkneading or a good dose of oil, but it can be a bit tricky to achieve. As you continue these tests, make sure to taste the pizzas side by side after they've cooled.

Lastly, no offense, but that's one of the worst mozzarella's I've ever seen. The browning you're seeing on the plain pie is a major defect and is usually indicative of a woefully low fat content. May I ask what brand of cheese that is? You can get around that with a drizzle of oil, but a good mozzarella really shouldn't need enrichment to melt well.

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enter8

Steve, I can't speak for crispiness, but more protein=faster browning, so, from a browning perspective, it's not entirely fair to judge flours with different protein levels side by side in the same formulation. If you're going to judge the occident or the kaap against the kyrol, you'll need to compensate for the lower protein with either more sugar or a longer ferment.

I don't understand that thinking. Steve wants to compare different flours using the same formula to see which works best. Trying to "compensate" for the lower protein is kind of missing the point of the comparison, no?

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scott123

It depends on what Steve is comparing. If he's just comparing how varying levels of protein effect his recipe, then, no, compensation isn't necessary. If, though, he's trying to find the best flour among these choices, then the only way to judge them fairly is to compensate for their varying specs. In addition to increasing the sugar and/or the fermentation, one should also decrease the hydration for lower protein flours.

Scott, thanks for your input here. I realize the difference in these flours are going to require different formulas and mixing/kneading times to get the most out of each one. That would take an awful lot of trial and error experiments to complete, if in fact it ever could be complete with so many variables in play. I just thought I'd start by running a bunch of flours through one formula and go from there. That way I can make some side by side observations along the way. So far, all these doughs have been mixed in a Bosch UP for 4 minutes on speed 1. I have yet to encounter a pie that ended up at all tough. Maybe the 2 minute bake in the wfo has something to do with that? All the pies have been very soft and tender with any crispness coming with the wfo reheat. 15-20 seconds gets any slice piping hot. As for the cheese, I confess that I could be using something better. Keep in mind the high temp of a wfo is pretty hard on most cheeses. Do you have any recommendations as to what would work best? What you see is "Guernsey's Gift" part skim/low moisture on the Occident pies and "Kirkland Foods" from Costco ps/lm on the others. Both are pre-shredded. I may go with Norma's supplier in the future to get something better.

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enter8

It depends on what Steve is comparing. If he's just comparing how varying levels of protein effect his recipe, then, no, compensation isn't necessary. If, though, he's trying to find the best flour among these choices, then the only way to judge them fairly is to compensate for their varying specs. In addition to increasing the sugar and/or the fermentation, one should also decrease the hydration for lower protein flours.

If a flour requires the addition of sugar or increased fermentation time to produce the desired result then is it as good a fit as one that does not?

I think all of your experiments into NY style pizzas for you camper Airstream WFO look very good. I know from using some of my NY style doughs in your WFO they don’t get tough after they cool down. I wonder why that is. Also the quick reheat always helps. If you want to take some of my mozzarellas home this week to test, just ask at market. I also will be placing an order for mozzarellas this coming Monday, so if you want me to order one loaf of either of my mozzarellas let me know.

scott123

I realize the difference in these flours are going to require different formulas and mixing/kneading times to get the most out of each one. That would take an awful lot of trial and error experiments to complete, if in fact it ever could be complete with so many variables in play.

Steve, it can get incredibly hairy when tweaking formulas for different flours. In commercial settings, it can take weeks to dial in a new, same protein content flour, and if they change to a different protein level, it can take months to obtain the desired results. In your particular instance, though, it need not be that complicated. This is, to an extent, what absorption values are for. While absorption values are rarely perfectly reliable, they're in a close enough ballpark to allow you better judge two flours of varying protein content side by side. Right now, when you compare occident (12.4% protein) and kyrol(14%) in the same formula, you're predominantly comparing a high relative hydration vs. a lower relative hydration and not really seeing the features of each flour side by side. I don't have the absorption values in front of me, and they might take some digging to find, but taking the difference between the two and subtracting the water from you current formula will go a very long way in leveling the playing field and allow you to get a much better idea of what each flour is capable of.

Even if you can't track down absorption values, just dropping the hydration by 3% for the lower protein flours will give you a far better flour vs flour viewpoint as opposed to a decreased/increased hydration perspective.

The 2 minute bake with malted, bromated (in 2 instances) flour definitely plays a role in texture. The puffier the crumb, the less propensity for toughness. Scott R talks about malted bromated flours bordering on being too puffy as you break the 2 minute barrier. If 2 minutes is where you want to be and you think malted and bromated is the direction you want to take, then perhaps the additional structure of the kyrol might be a benefit. Should you move up to 4, though, I believe that's where the lower protein flours generally tend to perform a bit better (in typical NY formulations).

One small thing to consider when working with malted flours in 2 minute-ish environments is that the sugar and intense heat will char the undercrust a bit faster than unmalted flour, and your window of being done/slightly charred and not incinerated will be smaller. It looks like, with your extensive oven tending experience, that you're pulling the pies at exactly the right time, but if you ever plan on hiring someone less experienced, malted flour at 2 minutes might be a problem.

Fat is key to a good cheese melt. Supermarket mozzarella will have less fat than food service (Grande/Grande clones) and supermarket part skim will have less fat than whole milk, Add in the drying/browning encouraging aspect of the anti-caking starch in pre-shredded cheese along with the intense heat of a WFO and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Foodservice mozz (from Norma or elsewhere) will make your life exponentially easier, but if you want to work with the supermarket stuff, as I said before, a drizzle of oil will be hugely helpful. When drizzling oil, you basically, on the plain pies, want to mirror the quantity of fat that's rendered from the pepperoni. Water can be helpful as well. Not only does water slow the cheese from browning, it helps the cheese to bubble. Water isn't as effective as oil, though, and you have to be careful not to use too much or you'll jeopardize the stability of the cheese. 2 or 3 mists from a $1 sprayer over the cheese area should do the trick.

Thanks again Scott. Everything you're saying makes sense. I have definitely noticed how different these doughs all feel from each other and especially the occident. That flour could surely use a bit less water. As for the bake time, I bake the NY styles when I need them in between neapolitan style pies in an oven that's running in the 800 degree hearth range. No 4 minute bakes here. As it is, most of the bake happens on the peel. Since it's just a little hobby business, I do all the cooking and I won't be hiring anyone else to man the oven, so that's not a problem. I'm definitely stepping up to better cheese. The problem was that my partner bought a lot of cheese in 5 lb bags and I wanted to use it up. The good news is that it's just about all gone now.

My daughter and I went to Green Dragon later today to pick up some stuff and we stopped to see Steve and Bob. Their Airstream looks great! On our way out of market we stopped to see Steve and Bob again and they offered to make a “Smokey Joe” pizza for us to eat. It sure tasted great and since I haven’t tasted a sourdough pizza for awhile I could appreciate the sourdough taste in the crust and how nice, light and airy it was.