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Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

Obviously his strongest attack o far would be elephant gatlin but that does not mean he held his punches back before. Luffy has the ability to increase his own offensive power according to the situation through his gears and haki. I would think he attacked hodi with everything he had with gear 2, then he attacked with everything he had with his hardened skin, then he attacked with everything he had with red hawk and finally he attacked with everything he had with elephant gun.

Your very post would imply lucci from before the timeskip is equal to the current luffy though. Only way to argue lucci's attacks would somehow have an effect on hodi while taking in consideration that lucci's fighting style relies entirely on strength, speed and stamina is to argue in itself that lucci from two years ago has similar strength, speed and stamina to current luffy.

I would rather question why lucci's attacks would work on hodi rather than why they wouldn't. Luffy and lucci have in common that they rely on speed, strength and stamina to win. Basically, since they are indeed melee fighters their speed, strength and stamina is what determines their overall fighting capacity (while taking into consideration that there are people who rely on other things, say someone like crocodile relies on dehydrating the enemy which is not something from which you could defend from by simply blocking). Now, taking into consideration that the offensive power of lucci and hodi is determined by their speed, strength and stamina, why would lucci's attacks work on hodi when lucci has overwhelmingly inferior strength, speed or stamina to current luffy?

As for lucci being on the map.... well, no he most definitely wasn't. Even luffy, the guy who kindly almost died beating the shit out of him was not in the map, that was flat out stated and implied a few times(why else would the man who trashed ennies lobby be called a rookie?). Lets take a few comments and events which would showcase luffy's relative strength to people of actual strength (or as you would say, people in the map):http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c561/4.html
Would someone in the map be so powerless that neither attacking nor running away is viable? A moment latter and luffy would have died without even being able to fight back and given what we saw it is quite clear mihawk is not even trying here.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_pi...5/c540/13.html
Why would the man who defeated rob lucci have to fear the VAs? Why would iva, someone capable of giving kuma a trashing and making fodder out of sanji fear the VAs? Because they are that much stronger than the likes of a rookie like luffy (granted luffy did take out that giant but I would argue there are a few of them who would even give current luffy a run for his money). http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_pi...8/c567/11.html
As tired as he must have been, luffy was still not able to keep up nor even activate gear 2 against these guys. I would argue they were at an entirely different league from the kid.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_pi...8/c565/15.html
Luffy was even said to be too young to even be at the war. Which makes sense considering that every pirate there made a point to defend luffy at some point. In reality, with the strength luffy had at that point he really had no business in the front lines of the war as the amount of people who would give him the fodder treatment is simply too numerous. Realistically speaking, with his strength he should have been among the numerous nameless pirates there, not taking on shichibukai, VAs or admirals.

In the end, lucci was strong only within the context of the story at the particular point in time he was introduced. In the context of the story now with the power levels that have been introduced and which the strawhats have achieved, he'd be outright weak.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

I don't think that implies in any way luffy was not hitting with everything his normal kicks, gear 2 and hardening had to offer though. Why would luffy say hodi is built like a tank if he was holding his punches that much? It makes no sense to even use his gears if he is holding his punches. Luffy's face and expressions when attacking do not support your argument either. Hodi actually pissed luffy of with the kraken bit, I really don't see why he would not finish him as soon as possible.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

Well I don't think the reason why Hodi lasted so long had anything to do with Luffy not being serious. I think it was more the type of damage that Luffy is doing to Hodi. No matter how hard you hit someone with a fist the only way you can put them down is by causing so much internal damage that they simply can not keep functioning or you hit them in the right spot and knock him out. I mean, sure Luffy has Snake shot, but... That quite literally did nothing but grab onto Hodi... For example, if I were to hit you anywhere on your body, you would probably be hurting a lot but I didn't cut you or anything so you aren't going to be bleeding out, and unless I hit you in the temple or really hard in the jaw, you aren't going to be knocked out. IMO That's the reason why Luffy couldn't finish Hodi in a more timely manner, he just isn't doing the right kind of damage.

Now Lucci on the other hand has some attacks that can poke holes in another person's body. I think that would be his only way to take down Hodi if he were really going to have a serious fight. Now I understand what kkck is saying, Lucci is in no way shape or form stronger than Luffy is right now and I don't think that Lucci would be able to put any sort of dent into a pacifista no matter how many flying shigans he did. Hodi however is in no way shape or form made of metal and if Luffy's rubber body can be damaged by Lucci's shigans then I'm fairly certain that Hodi's body would be damaged as well. And this fight being on land, Hodi isn't going to have the giant advantage in speed that he seemed to have while underwater and he will surely be strong but he isn't going to be able to basically any of the long range moves he demonstrated against Luffy. Hodi on land is restricted then to either biting Lucci or just punching him into submission.

Though I'm not able to provide any sort of evidence to support this statement, I don't think that Hodi would be able to keep up with Pre-Timeskip Luffy in 2nd gear on land, Lucci was able to do this and I think if he just stays away from Hodi shooting him with flying Shigans and some Rankyaku Hyoubis I don't think Hodi, despite his incredible ability to take damage, would be able to last very long... -shrugs- That's just my opinion though...

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

And Lucci's Rokugan blast through Hodi's body, bypassing his "Tankness"

Originally Posted by rymy0630

[...] IMO That's the reason why Luffy couldn't finish Hodi in a more timely manner, he just isn't doing the right kind of damage.

I sure can't follow the train of thoughts here. Hody doesn't have Tekkai or any metallic skin. The reason he could tank all those hits was due to his pills. The pills boosted his power, as well worked like painkillers. Thats why he ate them like crazy after Zoros slash and RedHawk. So Luccis skills won't do any shit. It's like in TB arc, the Zombies couldn't feel any pain but the damage still build up. Hodys case is similar. He feels pain, however after taking the pills he is over them.

So what if Rouguken blast through the skin? That doesn't change anything. So what if he is a master Rokushiki user? His damage output is by faaaaaar inferior than that of Luffys. He (Luffy) commented several times that he is tough and tanks damage like crazy. But I can't remember him ever saying his skin is hard (like in the fights with PX or CP9). So I rly fail to see the logic behind ur reasoning. Correct me If im wrong.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

Originally Posted by BlackHair

Hody doesn't have Tekkai or any metallic skin. The reason he could tank all those hits was due to his pills. The pills boosted his power, as well worked like painkillers. [...] It's like in TB arc, the Zombies couldn't feel any pain but the damage still build up.

[...] His damage output is by faaaaaar inferior than that of Luffys. He (Luffy) commented several times that he is tough and tanks damage like crazy.

You're not wrong in saying many of the things that you did, but I think we're talking about slightly different things. You are right to say that Hodi doesn't have tekkai or metal skin, so a flying shigan or a rankyaku hyoubi from Lucci would be able to puncture his skin causing damage (Though you are right in pointing out that he would be able to ignore much of the damage that is done to him). Regardless of how strong or how incredibly high Hodi's pain tolerance may be though, he will not be able to keep fighting when his body is poked full of holes and there are giant cuts on every part of his body, and as you said, regardless of whether or not Hodi can feel pain the damage will build up over time and he will eventually be put down.

Oh and you are also correct when you say that Luffy right now can cause more damage than Lucci could ever imagine doing, that's not something that I would attempt to deny in any way. I don't think that that really matters though, Lucci can take as long as he wants slowly picking Hodi apart, this isn't a speed game where he would need to finish off Hodi faster than Luffy can or anything like that... It wouldn't be a quick or easy fight for Lucci but I can't see Lucci losing to Hodi unless the fight takes place in or around water... Again, that's just my opinion..

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

^That would assume hodi is in itself incapable of responding or countering lucci's attacks at all though. Why wouldn't hodi be able to counter? I honestly cannot imagine an scenario where hodi is completely incapable of countering lucci. More so, does it make sense plotwise for the strawhats to encounter a final boss who is that weaker than the previous one? Hodi might not have had mastery over fishman karate but he was by no means a simple brawler in battle, he was in fact a trained soldier with actual battle skills. We know that at least before his transformation he was strong enough for the strawhats to think arlong would have been nothing to him (oda did say arlong would have been worth 80 million if he did not pay the marines). I honestly would not be surprised if hodi was actually a match for lucci even before his transformation.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

What would he really be able to counter with though? All long range attacks (The incredible 3 he used) were projectiles made of, or attacks that manipulated, water. And since this fight is taking place on land I figure we might as well just take his long range attacks out of the equation (Though if I'm forgetting any long range attacks that he did without using water please tell me). So if you take those away from him, what's he left with? Since I can't come up with anything the only thing I could imagine him doing then is being an absolute beast in close range combat, but with Lucci being as fast as he is I just don't see him getting close enough to utilize the incredible strength that the ES gave him.

I understand that it doesn't really make sense to have a weaker character appear later in the story to act as the boss for that area, but it's not that Hodi is weaker than Lucci or anything like that. I think it all has to do really with the places that the fights are taking place in. As we all know Hodi was fighting with Luffy in the water, and I'll be the first to say that Hodi would dominate everyone that Luffy has fought if the fight took place in the water, but I just don't see Hodi being that big a threat when he's deprived of the thing that gave him such a big advantage in the first place..

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

I love how water is almost always excluded from the fight in the discussion. It's not or did Jinbe/Hody have a water fountain come out of their rear whenever they used FK techniques? Ultramarine may need a huge amount of water, the rest didn't. Oda even used a chapter to show us the secret about FK, enabling the user to fight any opponent with water within them. Also it seems like Hody's skill with the trident seems to be forgotten too.

If you can take water out of the equation, let's take Luccis huge advantage of airspace away too and confine them into a square room without no way to increase the space. And as mentioned by kkck, why do people nearly always describe Hody as someone unable to fight or counter-attack, that's ridiculous and has stopped to make sense a long time ago.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

I love how water is almost always excluded from the fight in the discussion. It's not or did Jinbe/Hody have a water fountain come out of their rear whenever they used FK techniques?

That's exactly why I'm taking water out of the discussion. Hodi has no way of using his water manipulating FK while he is on dry land (Unless we find the fountain hidden in his rear as you mentioned). Jinbe is the only Fishman thus far to have shown the ability to manipulate the water in the atmosphere and use it to attack enemies from long range. I mean Hodi has been able to extract a single droplet of water from his arm (though I don't know how long he'll be able to keep doing that) but that's all we've seen him do and we don't even know if he can get any more out after that initial one.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Also it seems like Hody's skill with the trident seems to be forgotten too.

His skills with a trident? What skills with a trident? He has done nothing at all with it this entire arc besides hold it. If you can show me where he displayed some jaw-dropping moves that made him seem as if he was in a league of his own while wielding a trident then go right ahead and show me and I will quickly apologize for this statement, until that time however, I don't think we can really factor in his trident skills. Plus, with Lucci's speed he wouldn't be fighting up close and personal (Especially when he sees the size of Hodi, dude looks like a Blue Hulk with crazy shark teeth), it would be Lucci throwing countless flying Shigans and rankyakus from high in the air or from a considerable distance. I mean... Hodi can throw his trident I guess? But then that's the only use he'll get out of it, and other than that use right there, when would a trident really come into play in long-range combat? Shall we now start including his rifle in this fight? If you wanna do that then go right ahead, that'd be the only long range weapon that Hodi has that he has shown some skills with. And with limited ammo it isn't going to be a factor in the fight for very long.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

If you can take water out of the equation, let's take Luccis huge advantage of airspace away too and confine them into a square room without no way to increase the space.

As I said before, I take water out of the fight because this fight is taking place on land. If it were taking place in a lake or right next to a river, I wouldn't have picked Lucci to win the fight. But Naruffy said that this fight is taking place on land and didn't list anything that would help out Hodi at all in his initial description of the setting for this fight. Just as you can see no reason for me attempting to omit water from this fight, I see no reason for why you insist on having it come into it..

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Why do people nearly always describe Hody as someone unable to fight or counter-attack, that's ridiculous and has stopped to make sense a long time ago.

Tell me what attacks (besides the single attack that Hodi used with the droplet of water that he extracted from his arm, and the single shot he used to kill Queen Otohime from his rifle) that Hodi can use to attack Lucci from a distance. Then again, if you think that Hodi is as fast on land as Lucci was (Lucci was able to dodge several of Luffy's Gear 2nd attacks with his Soru, and if Lucci so desired he could just jump up in the air and chill there with Geppou) then once again please let me see a moment when he may have displayed this speed and I will gladly apologize for these statements.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

In term of sheer power, Hody wins.

Unfortunately, Lucci seems to be much more analytical than his counterpart. Unless Hody's range attack can effectively catch up to Lucci on land, I would give this fight to Lucci for the vast arsenal of skills at his disposal.

On another note, I don't really think Lucci actually lost to Luffy. Oda sort of just pulled that win out of his rear.

Re: E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

How about all the times hodi used his water shot and arrow on land? how can we possibly discount that?

I went back to reread the chapters. I apologize, and feel like an ass. ='(

Now that I reread them though I think this'll definitely be a harder fight for Lucci to win, but still a fight that he can win. Now it's basically a long-ranged fight since Lucci would know he can't win up close. Though I think Lucci's long distance attacks are much more devastating than Hodi's. For example, Lucci's Rankyaku Gaicho can cut steel, it'd have the same effect on Hodi as Zoro's swords did. Hodi's watershot was enough to go through many mountains, but it'll be like Lucci's shigan. Lucci can accurately fire Shigan while flying through the air, so it won't be an easy shot for Hodi to make since he'd have to aim at a quick moving aerial target that is firing many attacks at him as well.

So yeah, despite the fact that this will definitely be a closer fight than I had though before, I still give this to Lucci.

And I really am sorry about missing Hodi's ability to fire quite a few of those watershots. =(