When I first read this saying by Karl Marx quite frankly I was offended being smoeone who believes in God. As I have matured and opened my mind. I realize that in a certain context that statement is correct. When people connect with religion emotionally and not rationally, then the religion begins to numb both the senses and the mind. Religion is only meant to be a way of life in which man strives towards human excellence. To reach human excellence your mind has to be opened. When I read scriptures (Bible, Quran) I view all of the prophets as concepts personified. They were concepts that were expressed in the person of a human being. All of these concepts were finally materialized in Prophet Muhammed. The proof is that he is the only prophet that we have evidence that he ever lived. There are blood relatives of his in middle east along with his tomb. So for me Adam does not represent the first human being. He represents God's acknowledgement that he does not recognize you as human until you become conscious of your purpose on earth and then begin to work toward that purpose. Adam's purpose was to show reverence for God by building a God concious society on earth. In the Bible you have three figures represented Adam, Eve, and Satan as a snake. All three are symbolic to make up one person. Eve represents human emotions and the snake represent the human mind. So it was the mind that sinned, not the flesh. The mind tells the flesh what to do and the flesh only follow instructions. In the Bible the moral of the story is that if man allows his mind to respond to his emotional makeup then he would fall from grace. As long as the mind stay focus on what God wants (Taqwa), then man can never fall from grace. What is my reference for all of this. The holy Quran. If you are a true believer in God, then you should read the Quran. The Quran describes itself as a book for the believers. The word believers are mentioned more times than Muslims. It will help open up the hidden symbolism in the Bible. When the holy Quran does not mention something that is stated in the Bible, it only means that what is stated in the Bible is symbolic (hidden). So mention of eve and the snake and the garden of eden is not in the holy Quran, so that means that they are symbolic. So back to Adam. So now you see why it is silly to have a war between science and religion. They are both right. God made creation, but the creation had to evolve to the excellence that God wants. In Islam, Adam is a prophet. There is no need for a prophet if their are no people. Sure there were people before Adam. We had the cave man, who only lived like an animal. He was only concerned about food, water, shelter, clothing, sex, and play. All animals live life that way. I know you laugh and say that most human beings are living there life that way. You are correct, but based on the knowledge of revelations they have not reached the Adam state yet. Animals already live their life based on survival. As humans we were given a brain to utilize so we could evolve past our animal state to a higher state. This is what the Egyptian sphinx represents. So when the caveman's mind is opened and he begins to share and work with his neighbors and build society to meet the needs of others, then he becomes Adam. God communicates to him through the natural environment. The knowledge that I'm sharing with you is what is going to free the world from slavery. You study and research what I gave you and then share it with others. This what I just shared with you is peanuts. I still would like to share with you what Jesus represents and some of the other symbolism in the Bible. In the movie, Matrix Neil was told to free his mind. He was given a choice between the blue pill and the red pill. Your response will determine which pill you choose.

peace

Bouncer

10-25-2005, 01:53 PM

One man's rescue rope is another man's noose.

To posit that the "masses" need an opiate is not a strong position from which to critique religion.

As a sidelight, a preacher once said that God saves us in spite of our religion, not because of it.

Akbar

10-26-2005, 07:27 AM

Bouncer,
I did not say that the masses need an opiate or did I mean to criticize religion. The piont is that the way we intepret religion is wrong. It seems that there appear to be more enslaved people than those walking around free. Only the free have been saved by God. My post is only meant to wake up the dead. Those people who are walking around that are not conscious of their humanity.

peace

Bouncer

10-26-2005, 10:29 AM

Akbar (or, al anba' ?) I'm sorry I did not mean you I was referring to K. Marx and his improper foundation for attacking true religion. Socialism is not a substitute for a spiritual life.
As for the sleepers, the Bible says that part of spiritual maturity and vigilance is to be awake and not slumber - how true!

Salaam.

LaDominio

10-27-2005, 10:27 AM

This slumber that the Bible warns us of is...

Distraction.

Bouncer

10-27-2005, 10:35 AM

Oh, I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was watching Girls Next Door . . .

truebeliever

10-27-2005, 07:34 PM

I have never read the Quaran properly (hell, i hav'nt read the bible properly either!) but what it says sounds pretty good.

I believe that the Quaran is probably divinely inspired. There is certainly something with the number '19', in it...what that means to the individual? I think that it means it is NOT the product of an ego but comes fresh from the unconscious which always leaves a certain 'patterned' imprint. The same with the N.T and the O.T.

I think one of the problems with this tension between the 3 religions is that one is supposed to nullify the other when in fact it is merely to 'add'. To build on. We do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

My instincts point me strongly towards Christ and those 4 Gospels. I can do this without having to 'throw out' the Quaran and make that untrue. The stark reality for me at the moment is that Christianity 'resonates' with me far more strongly than Islam. That is simply a practical 'fact'. There is no need to theorize.

Religion is a process of continual unfolding. The revalation of God does not end with the coming or return of Christ...there is more to come.

I believe the New World Order is at it's heart divinely inspired. The Churches of the West inparticular have so failed in their task and become such sycophants to worldy power that God wants a shake up. I think they're listening as I note the Anglican Church inparticular coming out strongly against the policies of the Howard government...as they should.

Also, the churches need to give people the 'tools' to know God. That is astrology and dream work for the average person as they are not capable of prayer. To find out who i am as an individual and what God expects of me in this life. At it's heart, is'nt this what the three desert religions are talking about? As long as their are no tools people will continue to drift to the more occult practices in search of an experience of God in this dry materialistic world.

We must go beyond simply looking up to God like a small and vulnerable child looking for comfort and instead pick up our cross and carry it. All the while asking God if i'm on the right track. How can one do this in a world like this with a million and one distractions and an Elite program to rid the world of subservience to a supernatural God?

With great difficulty.

nohope187

10-27-2005, 09:09 PM

Technically, Christ wasn't strong enough to carry the cross after being flogged. His brother John had to carry it for him. So yeah, it's extremely fucking difficult. :-P

madkhao

10-29-2005, 03:59 AM

The CROSS

Have people been brainwashed into seeing it as a symbol of life and salvation when actually it would be better viewed for what it IS. The image of ROME - the BEAST.

10-29-2005, 04:08 AM

Is atheism black tar heroin for the people?

madkhao

10-29-2005, 06:23 AM

No, I think atheism is part of the opium.

truebeliever

10-29-2005, 10:31 AM

The CROSS

Have people been brainwashed into seeing it as a symbol of life and salvation when actually it would be better viewed for what it IS. The image of ROME - the BEAST.

The cross is the symbol of the united masculine and feminine principals.

The masculine - the vertical.

The feminine - the horizontal.

It is the union of opposites at which point one transcends the Earthly veil and glimpses the Kingdom Of God which dwells within. The balance of the right and left hemispheres of the brain.

It is attainable only when the individual takes up their cross...that is, stops avoiding their fate with the million and one excuses - upset wife, mother, father, family, friends, work etc...

How many times as a nurse have I heard a person on their deathbed complain they never did a thing they wanted in this life.

The Christian cross as you will note is not an equalateral cross but is unbalanced. Fancy that.

Maybe you're right...it is the cross of Rome...more like a club.

madkhao

10-29-2005, 12:27 PM

The cross is the symbol of the united masculine and feminine principals.

The masculine - the vertical.

The feminine - the horizontal.

It is the union of opposites at which point one transcends the Earthly veil and glimpses the Kingdom Of God which dwells within. The balance of the right and left hemispheres of the brain.

Sometimes you really blow my mind away tb.
Where do you come up with this stuff?

To me the cross is a roman torture device.
Metaphorically we are burdened with rome and roman torture during our stay here on earth.

Bouncer

10-31-2005, 08:10 AM

This is great. I always wondered what Jesus' followers thought of his statement about "Take up your cross . . .", because noone at that time knew that he was to be crucified. It would be like saying to us, "Take up your hangman's noose and follow me . . ."

Iconography is an important part of Christian CULTURE and does not actually represent God and His words to the world - that's the job of the body of Christ.

Akbar

11-02-2005, 08:34 AM

The Christian cross is symbolic to stand for the human being. Just go in front of a mirror place your feet together, spread out your arms and look into the mirror. You will see the cross. Your cross becomes heavy for you when you do not based your life on the word of God. Jesus dying on the cross is symbolic to state that he never left the path of God, so was not the author of the trinity belief. Jesus being crucified is symbolic to state that the word of God was hidden from the masses, but the Bible states that there would be a man who could read who would bring the word of God back. This is what Prophet Muhammed did. He not only brought the word of God back, but he exonerated all of the Prophets before him of all of the sinful things that the Bible said about them. He also brought a more clearer understand of both who God is and what man's role is to God.
So in other words as the Bible put it he is the return of Christ.

peace

Marsali

11-02-2005, 09:21 AM

Akbar, the Christian cross is not symbolic to stand for the human being. But given that you're not a Christian, you can't be expected to understand this.
God allowed his son to be sacrificed on the cross to redeem mankind for their sins, and to usher in the New Covenant.
Many people, especially Christians, may have a difficult time seeing the image of Jesus nailed to a cross. Perhaps they see this image as a sign of weakness because Jesus allowed it to happen and did not fight back.It also shows complete humility toward the will of God.
Since Islam is a warrior religion, it may be especially difficult for Muslims to see the image of Jesus up on that cross.
The prophet Muhammed did not bring back the word of God because he did not accept the commandment of "Thou shalt not kill." He believed it was alright to kill in battle for Islam. Though of course, conversly, Muhammed also taught the importance of having great compassion for the poor and less fortunate.
Many Christians throughout history have also believed that it's fine to kill in the name of God, but Jesus did not. He never went against any of the Ten Commandments; indeed, he upheld them completely.

Insider

11-02-2005, 09:32 AM

The Christ of the churches is not the CHRIST of the Bible.

Bouncer

11-02-2005, 10:09 AM

Hmmm, you think maybe it's just someone else by the same name?

"There can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood . . .": this is the basis for atonement in the OT age. Consider Cain and Abel; consider Abraham and Isaac; consider Leviticus and Deuteronomy; and consider Jesus. The crucifix was a Roman instrument of execution. Jesus had to die. The cross symbolizes to me the ultimate and perfect sacrifice by God himself just to save a slob like me. He was THE sacrificial lamb of whom Isaiah spoke: he brought the New Covenant to Israel, and to the rest of the world.
Selah.

Insider

11-02-2005, 10:18 AM

Bouncer wrote:
Hmmm, you think maybe it's just someone else by the same name?

"There can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood . . .": this is the basis for atonement in the OT age. Consider Cain and Abel; consider Abraham and Isaac; consider Leviticus and Deuteronomy; and consider Jesus. The crucifix was a Roman instrument of execution. Jesus had to die. The cross symbolizes to me the ultimate and perfect sacrifice by God himself just to save a slob like me. He was THE sacrificial lamb of whom Isaiah spoke: he brought the New Covenant to Israel, and to the rest of the world.
Selah.

The Christ of the churches is not the CHRIST described and quoted in the entire Bible. The churches teach a Christ that fits the needs of the church (to survive) The Bible is the story Of CHRIST and his relation to people and is complete in the Bible. The churches place interpretation between the believer and CHRIST
The Bible is a written word and is sufficient in its teaching. You do not need a church to follow CHRIST.

Akbar

11-02-2005, 10:31 AM

What makes you think that I am not Christian? A Christian is someone who is trying to be Christ like, which means that it is a person on the path of trying to incorporate the word of God in their life. Wow, you give me the company line of your belief in the Jesus. That is basic. A three year old knows that. In fact when Paul gave that belief to the Gentiles. He did it with the understanding that he felt they were children. Yes, in the Bible they call Gentiles children. See how the Jews make fun of non Jews and we accept it. So you are comfortable sharing a belief that was given to Gentiles because they were not deem worthy enough for an understanding with greater meaning. The question is did you follow what I said in the previous post. Do you look like a cross? It is an insult to your intelligence to state the God who created everthing would rape a Jewish woman against her will to have a son. Why not a gentile woman? See how the Jews again play with your intelligence. Your belief in what they gave you as a religion was only meant to mentally and spiritually enslave you. As a intelligent person I would ask the following questions. 1.) If God is more powerful than the Sun, how could a physical representation of him come to the earth or how can physical matter hold him. Also, if he died for our sins, then why are there more sins in the world now than there were during his time? 2.) Why would he chose a Jewish woman? 3.) Why would he have a child with her against her will? 3.) Doesn't the Bible say that we are all a children of God? 4.) Doesn't it say in the Bible that Jesus will return with a sword? 5.) Why is the Christian belief similar to Roman mythology? 6.) If Muhammed was a warrior and Islam is a religion of war, then why does history show more people being killed in the name of Christianity and by Christians than Islam? There are several others, but these will help promote you from elementary to middle school.

Marsali

11-02-2005, 12:21 PM

I apologise if I offended you, Akbar. While I do believe Islam to be a warrior religion, I realize that the majority of Muslims just want to live their lives peacefully, and to be left alone.

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were terrible tragedies, with a great loss of life, mostly of innocent civilians. While the invasion of any country is rarely justified, it's always a really bad idea to invade a Muslim country, because they will usually fight back.

I'm not going to answer any of your questions, Akbar, because it will only lead to endless arguements. I've been there and done that on this forum, and it doesn't really lead to anything good. I'm not going to change your mind about anything, and you're not going to change mine.

Insider

11-02-2005, 12:32 PM

I have read the Koran. Do I need to say more or can we have discussion without disrupting arguments.

11-02-2005, 01:00 PM

Sure insider, I'll argue with you. What do you want to argue about? Islam?

Let it fly...

Akbar

11-02-2005, 01:09 PM

Marsali,

I'm not offended. I just would like for you to respond to my posts rationally and not emotionally. The information I posted was not meant to cause an argument, but to start an intelligent dialogue. If you have rational responses to my question then I would love to hear them. If not then just state that you cannot rationally explain those things you hold dear. Abraham is often called the father of religion. What is special about Abraham is that he came to his belief in God rationally. God does not give us a brain then turn around and insult our intelligence with the trinity belief. Everything in creation points to their being a creator behind it. Even Jesus stated why call me good All the praises belong to the father.

Insider

11-02-2005, 01:21 PM

mihai_bravu wrote:
Sure insider, I'll argue with you. What do you want to argue about? Islam?

Let it fly...

You already know it all so you can go wallow with Allah's favorite camel.

Marsali

11-02-2005, 01:44 PM

Just because someone writes something that you obviously strongly disagree with doesn't mean that it's emotional or irrational.
By labeling what I wrote as emotional or irrational, it means that you don't have to (or don't want to) take it seriously.

11-02-2005, 01:48 PM

Insider wrote:

mihai_bravu wrote:
Sure insider, I'll argue with you. What do you want to argue about? Islam?

Let it fly...

You already know it all so you can go wallow with Allah's favorite camel.

So, you only argue with people who don't know what they're talking about?

And what do you have against camels?

Insider

11-02-2005, 01:49 PM

mihai_bravu wrote:

Insider wrote:

mihai_bravu wrote:
Sure insider, I'll argue with you. What do you want to argue about? Islam?

Let it fly...

You already know it all so you can go wallow with Allah's favorite camel.

So, you only argue with people who don't know what they're talking about?

And what do you have against camels?

Michael, give us your thoughts on hexagrams.

madkhao

11-03-2005, 11:21 AM

Back to crosses,
I had another thought
I + -
the cross is also a symbol for positive
the dash negative
notice the dash is the position in which we lay when we sleep or die. it is parallel to the earth
it can symbolize death
and the cross contains the position we are in when we are standing or sleeping.
it can symbolize life
they say symbols are the language of the conscience
so I formulate as long as we are spiritually or physically in the negative position our conscience and our being can only travel the earth and we are never truly alive and we are trapped on earth
now in the cross symbol we are sleeping and are dead but when we awake from our slumber here
on earth we begin to have life
now christians know that death has been overcome and when the chains of death have been released from us we become I

Akbar

11-04-2005, 03:21 PM

Yes, but the main thing is that it appears to relate more about human beings. The insight you gave is good, but what is it that causes the human being to stand erect or go to sleep. The word of God makes the human being erect and without we fall to sleep to the great posibilities that God wants for us.