have you read Dakin Burdick's thesis, "The American Way of Fighting"? The first four chapters might be of interest re. Muscular Christianity, judo, etc.

Going to pull it down today.

Originally Posted by DdlR

As an aside, I have a theory that some of the original field testing of Kodokan Judo/Jiudo/Kano-ryu Jiujitsu/etc. as a competitive sport actually happened in England, via the experience of Yukio Tani and Sadekazu Uyenishi as music-hall wrestlers. They had been sent to London to teach at E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club under the auspices of the Kodokan, and their books follow the Kodokan's reformist agenda of Jiudo as a "manly sport" suitable for inclusion in physical education curricula. This may have one of the events that led to their splitting with Barton-Wright, as he was more interested in street self defense applications than in sport; either way, their success in competition paved the way for the widespread popularity of sport judo in Europe during the 20th century.

I totally agree. I don't currently know enough about that period, but based on some material that I read in JAMA and mapping it onto my understanding of the history of Muscular Christianty (plus Gymnasitics and other physical culture movements) it makes for a solid story.

Originally Posted by DdlR

You should also talk to EJMAS editor Joe Svinth re. the influence of the Muscular Christian philosophy on Kano's pedagogy.

Will do. I've been promising a prof an article on this for quite a while and need to get my ass in gear on it.

DdlR, do you know any good source in english about SavateŽs history prior to WWI? IŽm doing a bit of research on Savate in Czarist Russia and Finland.

Sorry to hijack thread.

Unfortunately, although there's been a fair bit of historical research on savate, it's almost all in French. I may be able to answer some questions, though - maybe you could start another thread for this subject?

I did a concentration on Asian martial philosophy for my Philo degree, and continue to do research on KMA history (way too much Bullshido...makes finding the good stuff fun and challenging). In fact, I found Bullshido.com through doing research and came across Miguksaram's posts. Turns out we know people in common, etc...

I lucked out an my advisor at UMBC studied old school Kang Duk Won Kwonbup/TKD directly under it's old kwanjang back in the day after the Vietnam War, and had much first hand material (in Korean). This, coupled with learning the Korean language, and my own master who is old school Moodukkwan, has opened up a lot of research material and opportunities for me that a lot of KMA researchers just don't have.

I did a concentration on Asian martial philosophy for my Philo degree, and continue to do research on KMA history (way too much Bullshido...makes finding the good stuff fun and challenging). In fact, I found Bullshido.com through doing research and came across Miguksaram's posts. Turns out we know people in common, etc...

I lucked out an my advisor at UMBC studied old school Kang Duk Won Kwonbup/TKD directly under it's old kwanjang back in the day after the Vietnam War, and had much first hand material (in Korean). This, coupled with learning the Korean language, and my own master who is old school Moodukkwan, has opened up a lot of research material and opportunities for me that a lot of KMA researchers just don't have.

Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.

Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.

Part of this ties back to the assumption that a martial art needs to be codafied enough for a direct and recordable transmission line.

KMA's are always going to be contentious. Taekyon, to my knowledge, has one of the closest things to a "direct" line. My understanding is that Taekyon is also a bit more rough and tumble (read as less codaifed) than what we typically think as a martial art. So because of that it may not necessarily fit our modern model of a martial art.

Beyond that there are lots of claims about unbroken lines and elder monk teachers. To my knowledge none of them can be verified. Now, eventually Miguksaram will get to this and then set us all straight.

Unfortunately, although there's been a fair bit of historical research on savate, it's almost all in French. I may be able to answer some questions, though - maybe you could start another thread for this subject?

OK, no rush though. IŽll need to get in touch with one guy here, who is real gold mine of info in boxing. He said that savate was competing in popularity with boxing here prior to WWI. HeŽs old though, so it must be done soon before he passes away.

Is there an actual, documentable KMA today with clear connections in techniques to pre-Occupation Korea? I've been curious about the claim made by Taekyon, that there is a clear line of transmission from Choson to today.

Taegyun and Ssireum are two combat sports that pre-date the Occupation. There is an excellent article in JAMA about Taegyun's development before and during the Occupation.

It is important to understand that both arts are combat sports...민예/minyae/folk art, more akin to Okinawan villagers practicing tode and tegumi than Japanese samurai practicing jujutsu. (Dave Lowry wrote an excellent article on karate as a folk practice rather than an actual martial art). Hoplogically, martial art is defined for use in warfare.

The Mooyaedobotongji delineates Chosun dynasty battlefield arts. It is an outline, rather than a training manual. Any attempt at practicing its contents are reconstruction, rather than actual transmission. There are groups doing this in Korea, much like ARMA does with Western MA manuals. Some of them are good, others are laughable.

Much of the material in the Mooyaedobotongji is CMA, though it does present a few Korean weapons, as well as four ryu of Japanese kenjutsu. There is also one sword form attributed to the Hwarang. However, the Mooyaedobotongji was written centuries after the Shilla Dynasty, so all you can say with certainty is that the form is attributed to the Hwarang.

The empty hand section of the manual is Chinese chuan fa, the Kijikwon. I am currently involved in a project involving several KMA researchers tracing this form. It's origins lie in a manual written by a Chinese general, and it bears similarities to Taizhu Long Fist and Chen Taiji.

As far as pre-Occupation arts go, there has always been a strong CMA presense in the Korean arts. The Occupation and the rise to dominance of Taekwondo and Hapkido overshadowed these to a large degree, and so little scholarship has been paid attention to them until now. One example are the various schools of Shippalgi, or the 18 Techniques, one branch of which I study.

M.C. Busman pops in now and then. And Miguk's still around. He's done a ton of good work here.

I'm not sure who's done academic-specific work, but I would love for us to feature anything you guys came up with.

What kind of material are you looking for? I have old papers, etc, but I don't know how many of them fit the vibe of the site. My goal is to eventually publish an un-Bullshido history of the Korean karate arts. I have a lot of material on this I could throw together.