Generator shut down error

I have an off grid system with Schneider gear, solar panels, and a Baldor generator (before Baldor was bought by Generac). In the winter the power shed is around -5 to 0 degrees Celsius. Heat to generator comes from my battery room which is heated. All within one power shed. Winters where I am are -20 degrees Celsius.

When the batteries reach my preset limit, the generator auto starts. My problem is the generator is shutting down within 1 minute from an error: Gen L1 & Gen L3. I have watched the generator on start up and what happens is the L1, L2 are jumping around +-120V. The L3 around 240V. Then the load hits and then all within 5 seconds they rise up to around 180V on L1, L2 and 340V on L3. The engine then shuts down from a load unbalance. It doesn't happen every time, but I think must be a problem when the house has a bigger draw at same time.

I think the problem is my generator has not had time to warm up. It has been serviced and looked over by a good generator tech. He was the one who mentioned I should try plugging it in. Problem is the block heater uses way too much power.

The generator has settings that should delay the load and let it warm up, but the system control panel seems to override it and power starts being drawn in under 30 seconds.

Is there a setting in the system control panel that will allow my generator to run for 3-5 minutes first to let it get up to operating temperature?

It is a big problem because the generator kicks to manual off from this error and won't auto start next time the batteries drop down. Essentialy making it that I can't go away for extended days in winter.

Comments

I'm surprised the inverter/charger isn't disqualifying and dropping the generator input. Maybe the voltage and/or frequency qualifying values are set really wide in the inverter? I'd start by narrowing the voltage spec to maybe +/- 10-15v so the genny has a chance to stabilize before the inverter qualifies it, and drops the input if it gets funky. Aside from the kicked out genny, funky voltage may not play well with loads.

I don't know Schneider gear, but on my Outback inverters, there's a generator warm up delay time setting.

There is a setting in the Inverter that will delay the transfer but I think this is only on modern inverter firmware and may not be long enough.

Most people who need to really delve into genset use will buy the Schneider AGS. It will allow dozens of different time, load, voltage, Soc, oil pressure, temp, and more that I can't remember settings. You can view all of this on the Schneider web portal Insight from anywhere with a combox or the new Gateway that is suppose to be out in February.

Normally, would expect L2 to be LN (neutral) in the above display. So, L1-LN and LN-L3 should be 120 VAC nominal, and L1-L3 should be the some of the other two or ~240 VAC.

What I am seeing on your displays seems to indicate that the genset is having regulation problems. The speed seems fine (55-65 Hz is the typical genset frequency limits... +/- 2.5 Hz is usual range).

There is no excuse for those very high output voltages. Something is not right.

There can be issues with grounding (where the Neutral L2 is bonded to frame/safety/green wire ground--Should be in one place, but with off grid power systems, it can be as many as three places--Genset, Main Panel, and AC inverter). With multiple bonds, you can have current shared between White Neutral and Green Wire ground--Has caused genset issues and ground fault issues (if genset has ground fault breakers).

One "fix" for wild genset output is to put a smallish resistive load on the output... A pair of 100 Watt filament lamps (one on L1-N and a second on L3-N) was typical test. "100 Watt LED" are not a good choice... You might have to find 60 Watt Filament Lamps, or sometimes you can find heavy duty/drop cord 100 Watt lamps or those with Halogen capsules inside. LED and CFL bulbs have an internal power supply that is "non-linear" and can make its own issues with gensets/AC inverters).

What is the genset operational differences between the first display with 120/241 VAC vs the 170/341 VAC operations (and variations of)?

To test with lamps... Get a couple temporary/surface mount Edison Sockets, and wire Lamp 1 between Black and White circuits, and Lamp 2 between Red and White circuits. That will give you 120 VAC nominal to each lamp.

Of course, this is temporary--You would need a 15 amp fuse/breaker from each hot (or if you have a genset breaker panel) to prevent short circuits from overheating the lamp wiring... OK for testing, but not good for permanent connections without proper fuses/breakers/wiring.

-Bill

Functionally, your wiring seems to be correct... The genset and inverter are reporting "sane numbers"... It is just your genset supplying out of regulation voltages that is the issue (that I see).

The engine has no way to tell if L1 & L2 are unbalanced. A large enough autotransformer should help with that. Some control circuit somewhere may sense that, or a control circuit is sensing the 340VAC . I'd expect 340VAC to trigger a safety shutdown.

I too would suggest a pair of 100 W lamps ( or 250W work lamps) on each generator leg as a test to stabilize the voltage.

When the batteries reach my preset limit, the generator auto starts. My problem is the generator is shutting down within 1 minute from an error: Gen L1 & Gen L3. I have watched the generator on start up and what happens is the L1, L2 are jumping around +-120V. The L3 around 240V. Then the load hits and then all within 5 seconds they rise up to around 180V on L1, L2 and 340V on L3. The engine then shuts down from a load unbalance. It doesn't happen every time, but I think must be a problem when the house has a bigger draw at same time

. The statement " doesn't happen every time " would indicate it's an intermittent problem likely caused by a poor connection, looking at the image with the circuit breaker, the bottom left terminal Line1 appears to be displaced, the Alarm list display also corresponds with a L1 to N low voltage, you might want to check all the terminals are tight as often it's simple things which are the problem. A high resistance termination would cause the symptoms experienced, temperature changes can also cause movement, along with vibration.

I tested the lamp trick. The first run the gen shutdown within a few minutes with same error as before. I started it again and it ran fine for the few hours I let it run. The 100 W lamps lit fine. The V readings were good with steady +- 1 V reading.

I checked the power shed before bed and see that there was a shutdown error and the gen is switched off. I tried starting it several times and the gen would shutdown as soon as the control panel triggered the system to start charging the batteries. The V readings were very steady, but the instant the load comes on the volts climb within a few seconds to trigger an error and shut the generator down. I did get a new warning this time on top of the L3 and L1 warnings I always get; it read warning Gen Freq. But I think it is more to do that the engine flickered once before dying and probably gave an odd reading.

I unplugged the two lamps and it still shuts down. The gen will run with the breaker off, but once I turn it on and the system begins to charge the batteries within 30 seconds and it gets the same voltage error to shutdown.

I have a backup Generac generator that I wire to the panel, disconnecting the main generator and connecting the backup to the same input points, and it is now charging up the batteries. It is not connected to an AGS and I manually turn it on and off.

I have attached a few pictures of the lamp wiring and the wiring at the inverter. Maybe someone can see something strange that could be the problem.

I did check connections between generator and inverter and they are tight,

The house is 100% LED lights and a computer is often on. But there are plenty of normal loads for the fridge, freezer, water pump, etc.

The house is 100% LED lights and a computer is often on. But there are plenty of normal loads for the fridge, freezer, water pump, etc.

Those are not "normal loads" Those loads have lousy power factor and will stress the inverter and genset more than you expect. Re- run your load load calcs, and then multiply by 1.6 as a rough guess as to PF

If the backup generator works without issues on the same inputs, that would eliminate the equipment pointing to the generator itself as the problem. Time to open it up and check, below is a trouble shooting excerpt from Marathon Electric, whole document in pdf attached

It almost always is the genset or incorrect data input. Below is one page of 3 on the trigger pages of the AGS. If you do not see these the last firmware for ags was in 2017 and it just added Soc from min 50% down to 0% for lithium.

How do I calculate the power factor of my house electrical use? And then more importantly I need to know how do I apply the results to make adjustments if needed? Lots of discussion on the internet about power factor but I need to know how to use the formulas correctly for my system. I watch closely how many watts my house uses and have a meter to check the watts each item uses.

The XW will report the PF for you, it's in the menus on the SCP & the Combox, under LoadsYou have to isolate your loads, turn them on 1 at a time, and read the VA it's consuming. example - my well pump is a 1/2 hp pump, so you would assume it's only about 400W, in reality, the XW reports 1,000VA for the motor. Get enough of those going and you have a problem. This is nice article for the how/why VA / Watts / different PF loadshttp://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html#anchorgenerator basics

How do I calculate the power factor of my house electrical use? And then more importantly I need to know how do I apply the results to make adjustments if needed? Lots of discussion on the internet about power factor but I need to know how to use the formulas correctly for my system. I watch closely how many watts my house uses and have a meter to check the watts each item uses.

To get an idea of the effects of power factor measure the AC current of a resistive load, a 1000W electric heater for example, 1000W at 120V will be 8.3A, then measure the DC current from the battery, with a 48V bank the current would be 2.5 × 8.3 = 20.7A ( 2.5 is the ratio of conversation 120V ÷ 48V) Then use the same method with a 1000W induction motor, the current on the DC side will be higher than that of resistive load, multiply the DC current by the battery voltage, this will give you the power used, it may be up to 50% higher depending on the power factor of the motor. There will be efficiency losses as well as tare load, to add to both examples.

Power factor correction is usually done in industrial facilities where there continuous inductive loads, the utility will charge a premium for a poor power factor, because they are the battery in the case of the grid, if they simply billed by consumer wattage use, they would loose money due to the higher current demand on their generating facilities. Domestic users are not charged mostly because the loads are small and intermittent by comparison.

The XW battery charger is power factor corrected already, attempting to correct the small intermittent loads for power factor would be a waste of time IMHO, adding capacitance may also have adverse effects on the inverter. Correction is not something to worry about but something to keep in mind, especially if running multiple inductive loads similtaniously. Most motor nameplates will state the PF the lower the figure the poorer the PF.

There are mathematical calculations to explain this phenomenon, just attempting keeping it in layperson terms.