Retrofit (New pokes, RBY Mechanics Theorymon thread)

I would have thought egg moves are a no-go, since there's no breeding in RBY.

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...and there I overlooked something big. I just saw Scolipede learning Twin Needle/Pin Missle and though that it could work.

Hopefully egg moves are allowed, otherwise, Scolipede is outclassed by Persian and Ninjask (which is also interesting, since it gets Slash iirc, and with base 90 and it's godly 160 speed, those crits will hurt even without STAB). I guess EQ and Rock Slide could give it a niche, but I think Landorus is better for that even with the lower speed due to the higher attack.

EDIT: Nvm, only Gigalith was correct. All the others had shitty Special because I don't know how to check stats.

Gigalith
HP: 85
ATK: 135
DEF: 130
SPC: 60 (60 over 70)
SPE: 25

Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
Hyper Beam / Mimic

Gigalith can be considered Golem v2. He is better in almost all stats, and doesn't have a Ground-typing. He might not get Ground STAB anymore, but he trades this for a much higher offensive stat of 135, not to mention monoRock is arguably a better defensive typing than Rock / Ground. EdgeQuake for coverage, Explosion does a huge amount of damage, and Hyper Beam can be used to finish off pokemon that resist Ground if you don't want Rock Slide to miss. Mimic is also an option, although there isn't much you can do with it. Maybe a recover or something.

No, no no... we're not going to get into all the bullshit complications of thinking about things like whether or not a poke should get this or that move because RBY has no breeding, tutors, later gen TMs, etc. In fact, worrying about those things completely ruins the point of this thread. If the Pokemon gets the move by any means in any game, it's legal here. Keep it simple.

Twineedle Scolipede is fine. Though it is still not going to help against those damn Psychics...

I'm glad people are enjoying this thread :D

I'd like to take the chance to start some discussion on the Pokes that go from fantastic to... not so fantastic too!

Tyranitar
Rock

HP: 100
ATK: 134
DEF: 110
SPC: 95
SPE: 61

-Rock Slide
-Earthquake
-Hyper Beam
-Surf / Blizzard

So, Tyranitar is really faces a mixed bag, of mostly problems that come with retrofit. Losing Dark type means losing some big weaknesses, but it also means losing TTar's primary role of Psychic spook (Psychics too powerful!!!), and losing Sand and its special defense boost is even worst. Rather than comparing it to what it is in other gens, it's almost easier to compare it to Rhydon and Golem, the Rock/Ground types that are omnipresent in RBY OU.

Lacking a Ground type is definitely a problem, because TTar can't wall Zapdos and is prone to some major damage from random Thunderbolts (and paralysis from T-Wave). No STAB on Earthquake sucks too. Interestingly enough, Tyranitar can easily beat Rhydon and Golem 1 on 1 though, thanks to superior Speed and access to Surf! Blizzard still hits them hard, but also lets you do SOMETHING to exeggcutor (did you ever think there'd be a day where Exeggcutor was a Tyranitar check...) 61 Speed is extremely trolly as always, being deceptively fast for such a slow Pokemon (with poor Speed being Tyranitar's only poor stat). Tyranitar also differentiates itself by being able to use Special attacks.

Overall, TTar is still really interesting, but no Ground type is a big minus when comparing to Golem and Rhydon.

Salamence
HP: 95
ATK: 135
DEF: 80
SPC: 80 (over 110)
SPE: 100

-Earthquake
-Fly / Double Edge / Rock Slide
-Hyper Beam
-Hydro Pump

movepool, movepool, movepool... Salamence is a sad puppy. If you thought mence had a fall from grace in BW... lol, we got some major issues here in RBY. Salamence has no Dragon STAB to use, not even on the Special side, and its only Flying attack is Fly. As a result, it has to rely on Normal attacks or Rock Slide to combine coverage with an un-STABed EQ. On the bright side, it does get Hydro Pump to kill Golem and Rhydon... um... that's all... No Dragon Dance... :(

On a sad note, Dragonite outclasses it because Dragonite has all those cool elemental attacks, and Agility plus Wrap.

Garchomp

HP: 108
ATK: 130
DEF: 95
SPC: 80
SPE: 102

-Earthquake
-Slash / Rock Slide
-Hyper Beam / Swords Dance
-Surf

Garchomp is a weird case because while you'd think the retrofit would weaken it significantly, as it loses Dragon STAB, it's lucky to get just the right moves in the right places... First, it has access to Slash, giving it a 140 base power attack to throw around with its STAB EQ. The sand shark also had Surf snuck into its movepool, utterly useless in other gens, but amazing to destroy Golem and Rhydon in RBY. Also for once it's glad it has Swords Dance instead of DD. Do keep in mind that Swords Dance boosts don't work with Slash, as critical hits in RBY ignore offensive stat boosts. When using Swords Dance, Rock Slide is probably a better bet to take advantage of the boosts and get some nice super effective damage on EVERY flying type, the only things avoiding EQ sincere there are no levitate Pokemon.

It's also... amazing... statwise, as always, with great bulk, great power, and stupidly trolly good Speed. It's even more awesome when you consider that Ground types in RBY are purposefully made to be really slow because of their immunity to omnipresent Thunder Wave that every RBY team uses to deal with everything... except a Garchomp. It seems that Garchomp was perfectly built to troll in any generation...

Thunder Wave + Slash or Body Slam + Recover. Body Slam doesn't always paralyze but is a nice attacking move. Blizzard there to scare off ground-types (off 120 special!) and Hyper Beam to finish. Slash has a ton of power so it's worth considering over Hyper Beam if you go with Recover. Recover takes advantage of its bulk. This has a few things over Tauros, Slaking, etc. Thunder Wave, Recover, Slash (over Tauros) and greater special.

Ninjask would be amazing if it weren't for it's extremely shallow movepool in RBY. Slash always gets a crit, but Hyper Beam probably has a high enough crit ratio by itself. Swords Dance is also meh with Slash, since crit ignored the +2. Mega Drain is there to hit Golem and Rhydon, and because he literally has nothing else to put there. You can use Substitute, but it doesn't block status iirc in RBY, not to mention they break easily. Mimic can go over Slash if you really don't care about crits. Ninjask can only late game sweep, as Hyper Beam has low PP and Slash ignores the +2 if it crits (and it will). However, it does outspeed everything bar Deoxys-S.

Overall, it's similar to Persian and Dugtrio, but Persian gets STAB and Dugtrio can hurt Golem/Rhydon with Earthquake and doesn't have to rely on Mega Drain from a 50 Base Special. Also, lolfragile.

EDIT: Forgot about Probopass (btw, I'm having a blast with this. :P)

Probopass
HP: 60
ATK: 55
DEF: 145
SPC: 150 (150 over 75)
SPE: 40

Thunderbolt
Mimic
Thunder Wave
Ice Punch

Competes with Bastiodon for a spot, as they are extremely similar. However, while Probo has more Special, Bastiodon is more physically defensive and has access to Ice Beam. Probo can also TWave. However, Bastiodon has Body Slam, so both can paralyze. Thunderbolt and Ice Punch form BoltBeam, but Ice Punch is at a weak 75 bp. Mimic because Fire Punch is useless and he doesn't learn any other Special Move. Thunder Wave to paralyze stuff and support the team. Explosion is usable, but it's pretty weak coming from base 55 attack.

Yes, he's slow. But he plays very similar to a tradeback Alakazam or a slower, harder-hitting Hypno in lower tiers - having access to all of the elemental punches helps. I'd prefer Recover for scouting purposes, but Thunder Wave helps with the speed. You may want to go Mega Drain to stun the Goldon rocks as well if you must.

...Huh. When I thought of Spore, I thought it would be batshit awesome, but its Gen I movepool isn't that great. But actually having STAB Fighting is nice, I guess? Mega Drain and HJK 2HKO Golem and have a nice shot of doing the same to Rhydon, but Stun Spore is interesting due to Sleep Clause; you don't need it to deal with Gengar (your Rock Slide is stronger than its Thunderbolt), but it's still paralysis so it's good.

Yeah, another pokémon that would be interesting in RBY. It's slow as hell, but it's not 2HKOed by anything, and it can actually outdamage Gengar, Exeggutor and Tauros, which is a boon. No STAB hurts it a LOT though, and I can't see much use in Earthquake and Rock Slide for it; lack of Hypnosis and Thunder Wave really hurts its usage, compared to Gengar. Being roflstomped by Alakazam is even w--

Mienshao is definitely the best straight forward Fighting-type. It doesn't have bulk like it's brethren, but it has Speed, which is much more important in this gen. He also is no slouch offensively, packing a huge 125 attack. Hi Jump Kick, however, is what puts him above everyone else. Hi Jump Kick is the strongest Fighting-type attack, and off his 125 attack, shit is going to get hurt. Sadly, he has no bulk, and loses the opportunity of a decent 95 special. Rock Slide is to hit Flying-types, and Hyper Beam is to finish things off when you don't want to risk missing. Mimic because you have no other options and can grab something useful like Earthquake. Dig can be used, but loldig.

Lucario is amazing for many reasons. One, it has great stats, with its 115 Special and 110 attack, not to mention it's decent 90 speed. Second, it has a great movepool, having access to Hi Jump Kick, EdgeQuake, and BoltBeam, not to mention 2 great set-up moves. Agility is great because it patches up Lucario's average speed, while Sword Dance lets it smash anything slower than it. It still has problems with Psychic-types, but it's Special would in theory allow it to live at least one Psychic. It loses it's Steel-typing, which is unfortunate, but it's not horrible. Overall, if you want a fighting-type, there two and Scrafty are your best bet imo. Other moves it can use include Hyper Beam and Psychic.

Also, Audino.

Audino
HP: 103
ATK: 60
DEF: 86
SPC: 60 (60 over 86)
SPE: 50

Amnesia
Ice Beam / Psychic
Thunderbolt / Psychic
Thunder Wave

This is like Chansey (and Blissey) but instead of Softboiled you have Amnesia. Good physical bulk before Amnesia, and good special bulk after it. Boltbeam coverage, and thunder wave make Audino solid. Also, Normal-type is amazing in RBY due to the bad Fighting-types in general. Psychic can fit anywhere if you don't mind losing part of BoltBeam. TWave for support.

EDIT: Due to the lower SpDef though, Audino isn't as solid as I thought it was. Still, most things with Amnesia are good, so it's ok. :)

Electivire trades its Special for Attack and loses 10 Speed in favor of some slightly better (but still mediocre) bulk.

RockQuake (EarthSlide?) seems to be a popular move combination. Thunderbolt is your STAB and for Waters but your Special is much lower than the monster 123 Attack. Thunder can make your STAB hurt more but it doesn't carry any advantage over Thunderbolt other than raw power and it has the same paralysis rate of 10% in this gen. Hyper Beam off 123 Attack can destroy quite a few things but the only means you have to raise your Attack is Meditate.

There's a ton of other moves it can use though but I don't know of how particularly useful they'd be. Rolling Kick is weaker than Submission but slightly more accurate (85% over 80%), has no recoil, and carries a 30% flinch chance. Maybe you could do something with a combo of Thunder Wave + Rolling Kick? You can set up Screens, but there's better Pokemon for that and you'd be wasting the potential of your Attack stat. Ice Punch would give you some great coverage but it uses its weaker Special.

I'm not the biggest expert on RBY metagame, but I'm guessing that getting saddled with 55 means that all other Amnesia users are better. 114 is fast but there's still things faster and that speed kind of goes to waste if you can't do anything with it beyond I guess cripple things.
And it's so frail, too.
Crobat seems better across the board, beyond lacking Psychic.

Mantine is an entirely different pokemon with Gen. I mechanics. It gains a monstrous 140 Special, and also has access to Amnesia to boost your Special to stupidly high levels. Hydro Pump and Blizzard are his main attacks because Mantine has a horrible movepool. It's scared of Rock and Electric moves, but can tank a hit and fire off a crazy powerful Hydro Pump. The last move can luck Mantine into another powerful coverage move, while Agility lets Mantine sweep late-game. He's probably outclassed by Starmie as a Water type, but the ability to switch in on Exegcutor without fearing Grass moves is nice. Overall, a powerful pokemon if you can remove Chansey.

With those stats, Uxie becomes near impossible to KO, with no real weaknesses and a resistance to the main special dropping tool, psychic. As extra insult to his opponent, Uxie has access to Amnesia, and with decent speed and movepool, he can be a devastating sweeper. He lacks the recovery abilities of Chansey/Alakazam/Starmie, however.

Set:
-Amnesia
-Psychic
-Thunderbolt
-Thunder Wave/Rest

Cresselia
Psychic
HP: 120
ATK: 70
DEF: 120
SPC: 130
SPE: 85

For its just sheer invulnerability it is a league above Uxie at least, tho it lacks Amnesia. It has great special but unfortunately struggles to beat special based foes without Recover. If it can snag a Recover with Mimic against Starmie or Alakazam or Chansey it'll probably win.

Far from perfect; its movepool leaves a lot to be desired. But it takes Special hits like a champ and retaliates with a horrifyingly powerful Fire Blast. Very effective in endgame; it can pick off paralyzed Pokémon with ease. 80 Speed is enough to work with once the opposing team is paralyzed, and nothing that isn't named Chansey can take a Fire Blast without feeling it.

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I enjoyed your submissions, Afti. If I were to use Chandelure in RBY, I'd probably go with a moveset of Fire Blast, Fire Spin, Psychic, and Confuse Ray. Usually an unstabbed Psychic is only asking to get easily soaked by Chansey / Psychic-types, but that 30% special fall certainly will help Chandelure break past special walls.

Of course- it would have little resemblance to RBY vanilla in that case. Metagame would center around new, powerful threats like Regice/Uxie/Kyurem/Garchomp/Rhyperior.

On the subject of ubers: Groudon gets 150 Attack, STAB Earthquake, a usable if not great 90 Speed, and Thunder Wave. While being impossible to paralyze without resorting to Stun Spore or lolGlare.

Groudon
HP: 100
ATK: 150
DEF: 140
SPC: 90
SPE: 90

-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Slash
-Thunder Wave

Set up and sweep. Earthquake kills anything that isn't Flying; for Flying-types, you have Slash, though your boosts won't have any effect. Mewtwo or something comes in to force you out and stop your sweep? With some prediction, you can cripple it on the switch with Thunder Wave.

Hydreigon is very good with his 92/90/125 defences and 105/125 offences and usable even without dark typing.
This is set for all-out attacker:
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Surf
- Earthquake/Rock Slide
- Hyper Beam
Main idea:
Hydreigon has more special bulk than Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp and is not so scared of ice-types. 3-headed dragon has movepool larger than Kingdra has.
Flamethrower and Fire blast work well against Ice-types.
Surf is needed against Rhyperior and other walls that are weak to water.
EQ is needed against special walls such as Ninetales. Rock slide is an option for outclassing Gyarados.
Hyper Beam... Well, it's Hyper Beam.