I’ll take eternal death, since we’ve already covered that eternal life would lead to all sorts of horrible experiences… And since death is just nothingness. Also, eternal death is pretty silly phrasing, unless someone has come up with a scheme for revivification. Also, as per the axiom, eternal life would be spent in endless blind worship, which doesn’t seem very fun.

Maybe you should outline what the bible says about it for those of us who only have a vague idea.

Well, the Bible begins as the creation of two people who are doomed to death for sinning, and how the introduction of sin to the world, and imperfection to mankind causes the downfall of all those capable of sinning. The old testament is all about the formation of a nation to worship God, and a lineage for a Savior (a Christ) to enter the world from. Judaism was a picture of Christianity, what, with the sacrificing of lambs and all. In the end Christ comes and proffered payment for all mankind sins, if they want to take part of that gift, which is voluntary based. So, the entire Bible is a story about how death was conquered. I can’t quote the whole thing to you. Perhaps you can find one at the local library, a bookstore, or a church building.

This thread will devolve into a seemingly endless debate over different interpretations of the Bible. I’m a christian myself, but I will not take part in this discussion in these forums (nor any similar). I feel myself only being able to discuss about few subjects of christianity with people with (very) different opinions than me, them being love (not romantic), and concept of man – and I won’t discuss them here either, only with close friends. Cornerstones – or base axioms – of my beliefs… Or metaphysical assumptions, maybe.

IMO for this topic to work out, you should discuss it with people who have similar opinions with you, as I feel this topic is aimed at those people.

This thread will devolve into a seemingly endless debate over different interpretations of the Bible. I’m a christian myself, but I will not take part in this discussion in these forums (nor any similar). I feel myself only being able to discuss about few subjects of christianity with people with (very) different opinions than me, them being love (not romantic), and concept of man – and I won’t discuss them here either, only with close friends. Cornerstones – or base axioms – of my beliefs… Or metaphysical assumptions, maybe.

IMO for this topic to work out, you should discuss it with people who have similar opinions with you, as I feel this topic is aimed at those people.

Why have you found that discussions about these topics doesn’t work well in this setting?

Why have you found that discussions about these topics doesn’t work well in this setting?

Probably because most of us here have little knowledge and less willingness to treat your sacred cows with kid gloves. A similar problem would arise if I brought up a discussion on Cicero or Cato the Younger. It’s not lack of respect so much as a disinterest in ignoring the inherent silliness of ones beliefs. I mean, what are we supposed to discuss in this thread? Shall we show gratitude to God for eternal life by insulting everyone who thinks differently?

Why have you found that discussions about these topics doesn’t work well in this setting?

Probably because most of us here have little knowledge and less willingness to treat your sacred cows with kid gloves. A similar problem would arise if I brought up a discussion on Cicero or Cato the Younger. It’s not lack of respect so much as a disinterest in ignoring the inherent silliness of ones beliefs. I mean, what are we supposed to discuss in this thread? Shall we show gratitude to God for eternal life by insulting everyone who thinks differently?

Ok, Karama. Jan has eloquently explained why I was correct. I win.

To Jan yourself, my issue with what you say is it really is an appeal to popular opinion. If it is unpopular, should it not be discussed? or worse yet, is it acceptable to bash people and topics that aren’t the agreed upon social “norm”? If Christianity were to become the majority on the SD forum, would atheism be a valid target, and would it be acceptable to bash those that don’t believe in God? Would it be acceptable to ostracize homosexuals? All of the fight put into making the wrongs of yesteryear, the wrongs that people who said they were Christian, who targeted minority groups, all of that fight is based on the fact that people and ideas should be treated with dignity, even if the majority vehemently disagrees with them. This is the opposite of group think. Don’t you see that you are falling into the same mistake that those “sour-faced puritans” made so many years ago?

Perhaps you should explain what you hoped to get out of this thread before you start crowing. I mean, your question was rather confusing to non-believers, and i have no idea what sort of discussion value there was to be had, hence the flippancy.

No, you didn’t. I asked what you hoped to get out of the question you posed in your OP: “In what ways can we show gratitude to Christ for this gift He has offered us?”. You’ve provided no illumination of what exactly heaven – eternal life – is, according to the bible, nor any of the genuine doubts raised to better explain your position. I suspect that was your intention, to make a thread that would be unfathomable to non-christians, just so you could prove your ridiculous point about how ‘victimized’ you christians are (and yet I see Tuje has no such gripes) and say you ‘won’.

I explained the Biblical understanding of life death and sin, and how Christ ties into that. I’m not sure how else to illuminate this for you, but I certainly want to discuss this beyond any victimization.

Why have you found that discussions about these topics doesn’t work well in this setting?

Because it wouldn’t deepen my understanding of said subject. It only deepens my understanding of why people think differently than me (though that is not a bad thing in itself). To me, objectivity isn’t everything, and what you get here (mostly) is more or less objective/scientific stance on everything. Happiness isn’t objective, and happiness is what I’m reaching for, so any objectivity isn’t going to help me on that. (To people who want to argue for objectivity, I’m not intending to demote it, so no going off-topic there). Things like ‘love’ or ‘happiness’ can’t really be discussed here due to their inherent subjective nature, but nevertheless they are my key interests. As such, I don’t see these forums as a constructive place to express my subjective topics of interest.

From time to time I do post topics in here, as I am interested in hearing what people say about certain topics.

No original bible writings exist today(at least if they still exist we have not found them yet). And we have ample evidence that almost all the copies existing today differ strongly from the original writings. And this still leaves the questions which writings do you mean and which not(or do you mean all writings. Including my personal favorite one(s) about little tyrant Jesus that kills People in silly childish tantrums?).

No original bible writings exist today(at least if they still exist we have not found them yet). And we have ample evidence that almost all the copies existing today differ strongly from the original writings. And this still leaves the questions which writings do you mean and which not(or do you mean all writings. Including my personal favorite one(s) about little tyrant Jesus that kills People in silly childish tantrums?).

The earliest writings that can be confirmed, to the best of ability, to be attributed to the writers of the first century Church.

The earliest writings that can be confirmed, to the best of ability, to be attributed to the writers of the first century Church.

That piratically excludes almost everything but a handful of the writings attributed to Paul. No old testament, no gospels.

But Paul specifically cites other writers in his own writings. If we can use that as a base, it’s a good first step! If you really want to debate the semantics of the AX, I suppose we can, but I’d prefer if we looked at specific works, and debated their authenticity. Perhaps if you want to make the Bible writings themselves the topic, a new thread might be warranted.

I always found the metaphysics of the sacrifice strange. Really, quite, strange.

Why was a sacrifice needed? What exactly does that accomplish? Why did God set up the world that way?

You’ve mentioned previously about the notion of an “angry God” as imposed upon the Christian mythos. I am one of the people guilty of that, certainly. The relationship between God, Jesus, and Mankind with Ritual Sacrifice as some big turning point is to me baffling. Why would God demand the murder of his Son to Forgive the Sins of a Mankind he Created? It seems… bloody and pointless, I daresay bloody pointless. It seems like a concession of impotence and bloodlust to me. The mechanics of older, rawer religions which made no moral or all powerful pretensions.

So am I thankful to Christ for dying, as he and God both knew he would be, to convince God to forgive the sins that he imposed upon us? I mean, sheesh, maybe? I just can’t bite into it. I feel like I’m being victimized into gratitude. A great system of set up, guilt and blood so that I can strut about? Strange, very strange.

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