Ali's attitude coming into this fight was totally different from his previous bouts where he had shown nothing but contempt for the abilities of his opponents, on the contrary Ali had nothing but respect for Joe Louis. In this fight respect was earned.

Ali came out boxing carefully in the first round. Ali probed with his jab but Louis was well prepared for it jabbing with Ali and blocking Ali's jab with his glove and countering with his own jab effectively in a similar fashion to the Ken Norton fights. Louis managed a pair of strong body punches mid-way through the first and capped the round off with a strong left hook to the jaw that momentarily stunned Ali. The first round clearly belonged to Joe Louis.

In the second Ali showed more mobility using his toes and circling a slower moving Louis. Ali suprised Louis this round with his great hand speed switching from the jab (which was ineffective) to quick right hand leads as he did against Foreman. A strong right by Ali past the 2:00 mark caused the sweat to fly off Joe's head. Ali was in command this round.

The third round saw the tactical battle continue with Louis at least equal in the jabbing match and Joes jabs were much stronger. As Ali had trouble with his jab he increasingly relied on his quick right leads to suprise Louis and then dance out of danger. This continued over the next few rounds which were very close though Ali seemed to have an edge.

In the 6th Louis turned the tide back in his favor with a pulverizing left hook to the liver. Ali went to the ropes for the first time. Louis hammered away with both hands to the body and ingnored Ali's head so as not to leave himself open to his counter-flurries. Louis was very workman-like with Ali against the ropes. Ali tried to fight back but Louis clearly got the better of a violent exchange. A smashing left hook to the jaw rocked Ali to his heels and he appeared to be in a bit of trouble but the bell ended further action.

Ali continued the faulty rope-a-dope strategy agaisnt Louis in the 7th and 8th which were Louis best rounds of the fight. Louis worked over Ali's body and continued to land with strong left hooks to the jaw though Ali was able to partially block and anticipate many of them. Louis began pounding Ali's body like Joe Frazier in the Manila fight. Louis was trying to set up his big right cross but Ali was able to effectively neutralize it, but Ali was taking a beating to the body in the process. Ali had his spurts of activity but Louis was clearly in command and doing all the damage. In the 8th Louis landed a very hard left hook to the jaw and Ali was staggering. It looked like it might be all over for Ali! Ali mocked being hurt even more than he was and Louis was unable to find the finishing blow.

Realizing his rope fighting strategy was a failure against an opponent who didnt tire Ali finally listened to his trainer Angelo Dundee and brought the fight back to ring center in the 9th. The conensus at ringside was that Louis was winning the fight easily at this point. However Ali began to get himself back in the fight, slowly at first pitter-pattering light flurries but enough to offset Louis rhythm. Ali was still having trouble with his jab so he began to switch between jabs and right hand leads, and pivoting and changing directions to befuddle the menacing, stalking Louis much as Jersey Joe Walcott had done. Ali won the next few rounds in this fashion simply by out-scoring Louis who was remained the aggressor.

Jack Blackburn was scolding Louis after a lazy 11th round in which Ali was doing very little but more than Louis. Joe was was aggressive but throwing few punches. The bout began to take on a look of the DeLahoya-Quartey fight where the aggressor was landing few punches and the defender was content not to be hit. However things lit up in the exciting 12th! Both men were exchanging jabs at ring center with Louis causing a slight swelling under Ali's right eye. Ali then turned away from Louis dipping his shoulder and pivoting into a right hand (as Larry Holmes did agaisnt Gerry Cooney in the 2nd round of their fight). Bam! Ali's best right cross landed flush on Louis jaw. Louis went down! Joe was more suprised than really hurt. But Ali saw an opportunity and went after Louis sensing that the scoring might be very close in a match largely controlled by Louis. Ali landed his best 5 punch flurry of the fight and Louis was covering up. Just as it appeared Louis may be in serious jeopardy. Pow! Louis right hand that he had been looking for all night landed clean on Ali's chin! Ali went flying back into the ropes and he was hurt! The crowd already on its feet ROARED in anticipation. Ali was back against the ropes and both men exchanged hard punches. It was the best exchange of the fight. Both men were hurt! Ali forced a clinch and Louis banged with both hands to the body. Louis forced the issue with a strong right uppercut-left hook combination that made Ali's eyes roll back in his head. Ali was out on his feet at the bell. All 3 judges gave this round to Louis.

Angelo Dundee was pleading with Ali not to exchange punches with Joe Louis before the start of the 13th. Ali was slumped in his corner and appeared to be a beaten fighter. Drawing from the reserves that made Ali legendary he came out of his corner determined not to be knocked out. He scored with 3 successive straight right leads whose quickness could not be estimated by his opponent. Ali opened up with a peppering flurry and then slid out of danger from Louis quick-strike counters that had nailed him the previous round. Ali started the round strongly and then boxed cautiously the rest of the round. Louis was stalking but not landing. Ali landed a quick 4 punch scoring flurry before the bell ended the 13th.

The 14th was a repeat of the 13th, slowly paced with Louis plodding forward searching for an opening but unable to find one. Ali was content to circle and occassionally pop Louis with a quick right lead. Louis tried to cut the ring off and finally managed to do so and attacked Ali's body with both hands in the final seconds of the round but wasnt enough to win the round on 2 of the judges cards.

In the last round Louis went all out gunning for the knockout, the fight was still close so this last round was important to both men. Louis landed two strong jabs that had Ali's right eye looking more swollen than any of his previous fights. Ali's jaw was also badly swollen as in the first Frazier fight. Ali also, no doubt, was suffering from some very sore ribs. Louis had some puffiness around his left eye from Ali's right hands and was begginning to have trouble seeing the right hands coming. Ali took advantage of this in the final round circling to his right and scoring with quick right leads and some occassional flurries that though not particularly damaging scored valauble points. Louis was unable to find the mark with his big right and his attempts to get to Ali's body were frustrated by clinches and his deteriorating vision. It also made it more difficult for him to find the mark with his left hook the punch that allowed him to dominate the middle rounds of the fight. Ali won the round through caution and attrition it was now up to the judges. This was a clean bout Refereed by Mills Lane.

Judge Harold Lederman had it 144-141 Ali; Judge Ruby Ortega 144-141 Louis; and Judge Art Adala had it 145-140 for winner by split-decision....

Muhammad Ali!!

KidBlackie

09-22-2005, 11:47 AM

[[[Ali's attitude coming into this fight was totally different from his previous bouts where he had shown nothing but contempt for the abilities of his opponents, on the contrary Ali had nothing but respect for Joe Louis.]]]
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In his prime Ali was very disrespectful to his opponents. He'd probably name Joe "Ol' Black Joe", "The Brown Tommer", or some other ridiculous name. There was a lot of tension between the two even when Joe was an old man.

I'd have to favor Ali prime to prime, but Joe had a good left hook and might dump Ali with it and then finish him off. Louis proved to have the better overall career and started it stronger than did Ali and finished stronger than Ali.

M26

09-22-2005, 05:07 PM

I rate Joe Louis second to none in the heavyweight division. He was great in every department, and would be one of the very few (if not the only) heavyweights who could defeat a prime Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali was incredibly fast and could move very well. But Joe Louis had brilliant footwork, and would cut off the ring very effectively against Ali. So Ali would get caught against the ropes by round 5-6 I believe.

On the ropes, there is no way Ali could use the "rope-a-dope" or any other tactic that involves taking a beating. Louis was far to accurate, and had awesome handspeed. If Ali were to be stupid enough to stand against the ropes and take punches, he would get seriously hurt, and possibly stopped. Nobody in the history of heavyweight boxing could finish a hurting foe better than Louis.

Ali would not be able to tire Louis, because Louis always paced himself very well and never wasted any punches.

Joe Louis would be the better boxer and the hardest puncher of the two, and would not let Alis "mind games" get to him.

I see Ali giving Louis trouble early because of his unbelievable speed and great movement, but Louis would take control later though, and secure his win by slowly picking Ali apart.

Joe Louis by close decision.

Dempsey 1919

10-27-2005, 02:50 PM

a prime ali in 1967 wouldhave been in fine shape and have danced the entire 15 rounds if he had to. he would pump in sharp stinging jabs and right leads and uppercuts. louis' quick hands would have hurt ali maybe a couple of times, but ali would have been too fast for joe to keep on hitting him. joe louis' famous two-fisted attack worked for guys who got up close to him. muhammad would not have been anywhere near louis. louis would have been cut on his right eye with ali's jab by the fourth round, and the end result would be a tko on cuts in the 6th or 7th, or a ko, in the 9th or 10th. seriously, nobody came close to beating ali, and the fighter who would come the closest would be a fighter who fights just like ali. larry holmes is the closest a boxer would come to defeating the butterfly. however, since holmes was not as fast on his feet, or in his hands than ali, ali would win by a late 14th or 15th round ko or a unanimous decision.

M26

10-27-2005, 06:37 PM

a prime ali in 1967 wouldhave been in fine shape and have danced the entire 15 rounds if he had to. he would pump in sharp stinging jabs and right leads and uppercuts. louis' quick hands would have hurt ali maybe a couple of times, but ali would have been too fast for joe to keep on hitting him. joe louis' famous two-fisted attack worked for guys who got up close to him. muhammad would not have been anywhere near louis. louis would have been cut on his right eye with ali's jab by the fourth round, and the end result would be a tko on cuts in the 6th or 7th, or a ko, in the 9th or 10th. seriously, nobody came close to beating ali, and the fighter who would come the closest would be a fighter who fights just like ali. larry holmes is the closest a boxer would come to defeating the butterfly. however, since holmes was not as fast on his feet, or in his hands than ali, ali would win by a late 14th or 15th round ko or a unanimous decision.

I agree with you when it comes to Ali vs Holmes. Ali would beat Holmes to the punch and take home a safe decision.

I still say Louis defeats Ali though. :)

Imira

10-28-2005, 10:10 AM

I rate Joe Louis second to none in the heavyweight division. He was great in every department, and would be one of the very few (if not the only) heavyweights who could defeat a prime Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali was incredibly fast and could move very well. But Joe Louis had brilliant footwork, and would cut off the ring very effectively against Ali. So Ali would get caught against the ropes by round 5-6 I believe.

On the ropes, there is no way Ali could use the "rope-a-dope" or any other tactic that involves taking a beating. Louis was far to accurate, and had awesome handspeed. If Ali were to be stupid enough to stand against the ropes and take punches, he would get seriously hurt, and possibly stopped. Nobody in the history of heavyweight boxing could finish a hurting foe better than Louis.

Ali would not be able to tire Louis, because Louis always paced himself very well and never wasted any punches.

Joe Louis would be the better boxer and the hardest puncher of the two, and would not let Alis "mind games" get to him.

I see Ali giving Louis trouble early because of his unbelievable speed and great movement, but Louis would take control later though, and secure his win by slowly picking Ali apart.

Joe Louis by close decision.

Good post. Don't forget that Louis had the ability to take away a jab by "checking" with his right hand and firing back with his left. Ali's jab is a huge part of his arsenal and he would face increased difficulty if it's taken away from him.

Dempsey 1919

10-28-2005, 02:04 PM

I agree with you when it comes to Ali vs Holmes. Ali would beat Holmes to the punch and take home a safe decision.

I still say Louis defeats Ali though. :)
how? ali would have to be close to louis for louis to even hurt him. the butterfly would just dance away from him the whole time.

Kimmy

10-28-2005, 03:26 PM

how? ali would have to be close to louis for louis to even hurt him. the butterfly would just dance away from him the whole time.
I agree. Ali had too much for Louis. Ali by comfortable dec!

M26

10-28-2005, 04:05 PM

how? ali would have to be close to louis for louis to even hurt him. the butterfly would just dance away from him the whole time.

Like I stated before, I believe Louis would be able to cut off the ring against Ali. He had very good footwork, and I can not envision Ali being able to run from Louis all night long.

It would be a great fight no matter who won.

M26

10-28-2005, 04:06 PM

Good post. Don't forget that Louis had the ability to take away a jab by "checking" with his right hand and firing back with his left. Ali's jab is a huge part of his arsenal and he would face increased difficulty if it's taken away from him.

Good point!

Dempsey 1919

10-28-2005, 07:13 PM

ali's left jab could get into any fighter. if it could hit the always moving frazier, it would definitely hit louis!

nehiyaw

01-26-2006, 03:35 PM

Remember Louis was knocked out early in his career (Schmeling), and befuddled and outboxed (even staggered)by a small man in Billy Conn. While I seriuosly doubt Ali would've KO'ed Louis early, I see him winning over Louis by decision, over a brutal and exciting fifteen rounds. Louis will have his moments, but overall, it would make for one of the best fights of any era.

This would be similar to an Ali/Norton fight, except this would be a prime Ali, who wouldn't be flat-footed.

Southpaw Stinger

01-26-2006, 04:04 PM

Ali by late KO or UD.

hellfire508

01-26-2006, 10:32 PM

I just copy and paste my same response for this matchup, I'm sick of writing it:

The same points are always raised when this matchup is brought up. "Ali is vulnerable to the left hook". "Louis could be outboxed". Lets look at the styles.

The night Max Schmelling beat Joe Louis - he executed a perfectly thought-out plan. When had a tendancy to drop his left hand - after a jab, preparing for a left hook and after he threw the right. Jack Johnson pointed out this flaw to the Schmelling camp, and Schmelling nailed Louis with counter-right hands all night, before KOing him. Following this fight - Louis corrected the flaw, though at times did still make this mistake.

Ali was always vulnerable to the left hook because of his pull-back, hands low style. Unlike Louis, Ali had the speed to get away with holding his hands low. His evasiveness prevented him from taking severe beating that a normal man would take. He was dropped by left hooks from Banks, Cooper and Frazier. Louis wasn't prime for SChemlling - just like Ali wasn't prime for Cooper and Banks. And was past it for Frazier.

Now - Joe Louis was infact outboxed by Billy Conn for 12 rounds. Conn - a great light-heavyweight, who stood 6"1 and a mere 72 inch reach, weighed in at 174 for the fight. He was soundly outpointing Louis until Conn was put down hard, and out. Muhammad Ali was faster than heavyweight Billy Conn, and stood 6"3, 83" reach and weighed in the vicinity of 210 pounds. Conn did not have a reputation for a solid chin, Ali did. Ali could take bombs. If Ali used the ring - like the Terrell and Williams Ali, and used his reach and height advantage, he could do what Conn did - but better. Ali didn't invent the stick and move, but he was a master at it. He took it to another level though. He punched while moving - not just jabs, but right hands, hooks. He stung while he floated.

The Walcott fight - first one - was past Louis' prime. However, Walcott deserved the nod over the 15 rounds. Louis was down twice, and outboxed. Joe Louis was vulnerable to a mover with a solid jab. Yet the fighters who troubled him with this - couldn't stay away, or couldn't take the blows from Louis. Remebering Walcott was no star at that stage of his career. He had lost 1/4 of his fights. Though he did have wins over Elmer Ray and Joey Maxim. Again, Walcott was 6"0, and a 74" reach. The bigger, faster and granite chinned Ali could succeed where Conn and Walcott failed.

Onto Ali, he was primarily troubled by come-forward fighters who applied pressure, and jab a good jab. Ken Norton was the primary troubler for Ali - although, if you watch all three Norton bouts, you will see it was the flat-footed version that was troubled. Ali up on his toes bewildered Norton. Thus the non-stop dancing Ali from the 60s would most likely dominate Norton. Spinks - though well past Ali's prime, used pressure and a jab to beat Ali. Frazier, used pressure and a hook. Ali never faced anyone with the combination of power and combinations that Louis had. Foreman had more power, but nobody had combinations like Joe Louis. But the thing about Ali is - as he put it - "he hit me once and I'm gonna be gone". Ali in his prime was never hit by more than one - maybe two - punches at a time. He would get tagged, and move straight out of there.

It is always said, "Louis would break Ali down with the combinations. Hook, right, hook." Truth be told, I can see Louis landing a fair few left hooks. But his combinations would not be a factor in this fight. Ali would not allow himself to be cornered by Joe. PLus, Joe didn't apply the pressure that was required to crowd Ali - and trouble him. Louis applied subtle pressure, though he moved forward very slowly - almost plodding.

Ali could NOT rope-a-dope Joe Louis. That is suicide. He would be torn apart, and the referee would stop the fight. He was almost as powerful as Foreman, but alot more accurate and conservative - and didn't telegraph his punches. Ali would be TKO'd if he used rope-a-dope. However, prime Ali never did use it - so its not really an issue.

The way I see the fight going - Ali utilizes the ring, jabbing Louis, keeping him at bay. He flurries several times every round, moxing up his combinations. It's when this happens that Louis will strike - landing a few left hooks. I can see Ali maybe going down once, depending on how cautious he would be. If you are in the ring with Joe Louis - you are gonna be cautious. Ali would pick up the pace in the mid-rounds, as Louis starts to tire - not because of stamina - but because of the constant landing jabs. The fight would be stopped by the referee in the 14th round, with Louis unable to continue.

Heckler

01-27-2006, 01:21 AM

I dont think Louis had the ability to cut off a prime Ali. He was very stationary, and although whatever movement he did use was good, the kind of old style shuffling Louis used wouldn't get Ali on the ropes often. People note that Louis would block Ali's jab, in Ali's younger days he would fire that jab whilst laterally moving and from weird angles. I dont think Norton would be able to handle his jab as efficently against a 67' Ali, Louis might block the first jab, but Ali threw them in rapid sucession from really odd angles and im certain with his superior speed and timing he'd catch Joe with a few. In his younger days he had many flaws, but his sheer speed, timing, and judgement made up for this. Ali loved throwing right-crosses, that would be brutally effective against Louis. Louis would get Ali on the ropes occasionally and give him a good beating, but it wouldn't be enough and i think Ali would stop him in the later rounds as a result of the accumlative effect his flurries would have. After a tough fight Ali stops him in 10.

Dempsey 1919

01-27-2006, 12:17 PM

louis gets in power from fighting in close. ali is not an in-fighter. if ali fights louis like he fought doug jones, then ali would be ko'd in the middle rounds. if ali fought louis like he fought sonny liston, he would stop louis in the 8th or 9th. ali would take louis seriously, so he would fight louis like he did liston, and win.