I'd rather they go with 720p and pack in more effects. But if it comes out at 1080p looking as good as what we saw at E3, I definitely won't be disappointed. This game is pretty much a year and a half from releasing, so I'm very optimistic about the visuals. I just can't wait to find out what the gameplay and the theme are going to be. Damn this hype!

Aonuma told us that this is how the game is going to look. After what they did with the playback on Mario Kart 8 with the different angles/replay options, I have no reason to doubt that what we were shown is legit.

Has anyone like digital foundry or the like determined how many FPS the in game engine action scene was running at?

Or is that impossible cause it was only streamed?

Click to expand...

Well Nintendo has a version of what they streamed for viewing on Wii U, so I imagine it's possible to find out. I doubt they'll go for 60fps though. It's not particularly necessary with a game like this.

Has anyone like digital foundry or the like determined how many FPS the in game engine action scene was running at?

Or is that impossible cause it was only streamed?

Click to expand...

Well Nintendo has a version of what they streamed for viewing on Wii U, so I imagine it's possible to find out. I doubt they'll go for 60fps though. It's not particularly necessary with a game like this.

Click to expand...

thats a video not a live demo on the Wii U itself, any equipment would read the FPS of the video not the render cycle rate.

Has anyone like digital foundry or the like determined how many FPS the in game engine action scene was running at?

Or is that impossible cause it was only streamed?

Click to expand...

Well Nintendo has a version of what they streamed for viewing on Wii U, so I imagine it's possible to find out. I doubt they'll go for 60fps though. It's not particularly necessary with a game like this.

Click to expand...

thats a video not a live demo on the Wii U itself, any equipment would read the FPS of the video not the render cycle rate.

Has anyone like digital foundry or the like determined how many FPS the in game engine action scene was running at?

Or is that impossible cause it was only streamed?

Click to expand...

Well Nintendo has a version of what they streamed for viewing on Wii U, so I imagine it's possible to find out. I doubt they'll go for 60fps though. It's not particularly necessary with a game like this.

Does it really matters to you guys if its 1080p or not? Iam not being funny, I really wonder does it really affect the gameplay or even how the game look to you? From my experience most people cant even tell the difference between 720 and 1080

It's a screen taken from the game running on a developer kit which has more power than the actual system. Many times screen shots are released at higher resolutions than the game will be. I don't doubt that it's possible, but it's going to take more than some high res images to make a compelling argument.

Click to expand...

dev kits only have the extra power and resources needed to run debugging tools. It has to be as close to a normal system as possible to allow the devs to make a parallel to the actual system

In the entirety of Gen 7 development never actually utilized the full extent of the 720p frame as any CG artist can tell you and that dirty little secret is why games like the Witcher 3 on X1 upscaled to 1080p; will look no different, immediately, to the 1080p native version on PS4. In fact you should see more on screen in the X1 version. Wii U has some inherant data processing tricks in its hardware the others don't, that if harnessed in the workspace should enable that at 1080p but this is where the problem lays. So far no one has been able to harness it. So far.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

Which games because MK8 wasn't (even though I still though it would be 1080p).

Honestly the game looks fantastic so I don't care if it's native 1080p or native 720p I just want to play it.

It's a screen taken from the game running on a developer kit which has more power than the actual system. Many times screen shots are released at higher resolutions than the game will be. I don't doubt that it's possible, but it's going to take more than some high res images to make a compelling argument.

Click to expand...

dev kits only have the extra power and resources needed to run debugging tools. It has to be as close to a normal system as possible to allow the devs to make a parallel to the actual system

In the entirety of Gen 7 development never actually utilized the full extent of the 720p frame as any CG artist can tell you and that dirty little secret is why games like the Witcher 3 on X1 upscaled to 1080p; will look no different, immediately, to the 1080p native version on PS4. In fact you should see more on screen in the X1 version. Wii U has some inherant data processing tricks in its hardware the others don't, that if harnessed in the workspace should enable that at 1080p but this is where the problem lays. So far no one has been able to harness it. So far.

Click to expand...

What data processing tricks? This isn't video we are talking about here where a DSP can help with 1080p video output. Games are more complicated than that. The wiiu has a more enhanced shader library but you can't have data processing tricks for raw pixel output. A 1080p image running with decent framerate is a combination of RAM availability and processor speed. Depending on scene complexity, a limitation on either RAM or processing power will force a drop in something, typically resolution for more complicated scenery. Less complex scenes coupled with a drop in resolution can sustain a high framerate in a performance starved system, hence why mario kart 8 was 720p and not 1080p despite claims that it was 1080p. The realization of the hardware performance will prevent that from being a reality, no matter how much you optimize the software.

What data processing tricks? This isn't video we are talking about here where a DSP can help with 1080p video output. Games are more complicated than that. The wiiu has a more enhanced shader library but you can't have data processing tricks for raw pixel output. A 1080p image running with decent framerate is a combination of RAM availability and processor speed. Depending on scene complexity, a limitation on either RAM or processing power will force a drop in something, typically resolution for more complicated scenery. Less complex scenes coupled with a drop in resolution can sustain a high framerate in a performance starved system, hence why mario kart 8 was 720p and not 1080p despite claims that it was 1080p. The realization of the hardware performance will prevent that from being a reality, no matter how much you optimize the software.

Click to expand...

Yeah you're talking about PC and how that understanding is encapsulated. No one mentioned threading although the Wii U almost certainly has alot available to it and makes extremely efficient use of it overall. Its part of IBM's ISA scaling. Wii U's MCM, is totally a different beast than what most people are used to understanding. Efficient data processing isn't necessarily the sum of optimization with modern processor technology. In Wii U's case, its a number of process gains, not the least being the absence of scheduling to the same degree that you are used to hearing about and thus allows the off chip RAM to simply feed process. Its almost the opposite of what you understand in the home x86 space as its significantly removed from the need of many of its compiler optimization due to staged pipelining purely dependent on vector math.

The issue here is in the management of the process data in the first place at the micro-code level. Data processing speed is definately not an issue, but with the much larger single instruction provided by the eDRAM (memory that inteconnects the entire MCM), along much shorter pipelines and having removed ordering. - In time with the RAM you essentially have an extremely low latency renderout. One has to remember that with IBM ISA's one can work with a full pipeline or staged, its up to you and it even has the capability to interpret both in the same structure, you're not governed by compiler tricks due to inefficient staged pipelining and thus the inclusion of OOoE was instigated to delimit flip-flop latency even further when you do. This is hardware mind you, not interfacing, its what the chip does.

What it won't do is magically organise your workspace and thus you will need to spend some time to interface this so that the workload is managed better. Until you can unify that you will be limited to doing what you already know how to do. The pure specifics of this is something you need to talk to people like Shin'en about as they seem to be very approachable with any specific questions through the Unity boards. If you know what to ask then don't hesitate to ask them.

If you want to learn more about the dissemination then IBM has a whole website devoted to it and I recomend anyone with doubts go and read about it. As it is. This post with either be deleted or moved to the Spec Hardware and Graphics thread as Nintendo users are forbidden to disseminate hardware in this lobby.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

Why not just wait and see what eventuates? Does anyone really want to instigate the resolutiongate debate in this lobby? I certainly don't, past making a correction as best I can where its valid and as long its not on deaf ears. Other than that I don't want to get into back'n'forths about it.

GTA V also ran quite a bit below 30 frames per second when much of anything was going on. It often fell below 20 frames per second when things got really complicated. I think it's quite unlikely that Nintendo targets 1080P with Zelda because they'd have a hell of a time keeping that running at a steady framerate which historically Nintendo has been all about steady framerates vs higher resolutions.

This type of game would in my opinion benefit more from targeting 720p at 60 frames with quality anti-alaising.

GTA V also ran quite a bit below 30 frames per second when much of anything was going on. It often fell below 20 frames per second when things got really complicated. I think it's quite unlikely that Nintendo targets 1080P with Zelda because they'd have a hell of a time keeping that running at a steady framerate which historically Nintendo has been all about steady framerates vs higher resolutions.

This type of game would in my opinion benefit more from targeting 720p at 60 frames with quality anti-alaising.

Palaninja, it doesn't automatically mean that something isn't rendered if uses in game assets. I thought so too but a few developers explained that they use the in game assets in pre-rendered cut scenes but they'd bump the resolution or add a higher quality anti-alaising to the cut scenes or both.

That isn't true unless you are talking about MSAA or a comparative true anti-alaising format that renders multiple times.

Click to expand...

Yes, and you said "a quality AA solution"

Click to expand...

Not all quality AA solutions need to be multiple sample anymore, some actual quality post processing techniques aren't that far behind nowadays. It's not as good as 4x MSAA or higher but if you want 60 frames as Nintendo seems to be pretty heavily supporting on Wii U it's not a bad trade off.

That isn't true unless you are talking about MSAA or a comparative true anti-alaising format that renders multiple times.

Click to expand...

Yes, and you said "a quality AA solution"

Click to expand...

Not all quality AA solutions need to be multiple sample anymore, some actual quality post processing techniques aren't that far behind nowadays. It's not as good as 4x MSAA or higher but if you want 60 frames as Nintendo seems to be pretty heavily supporting on Wii U it's not a bad trade off.

What data processing tricks? This isn't video we are talking about here where a DSP can help with 1080p video output. Games are more complicated than that. The wiiu has a more enhanced shader library but you can't have data processing tricks for raw pixel output. A 1080p image running with decent framerate is a combination of RAM availability and processor speed. Depending on scene complexity, a limitation on either RAM or processing power will force a drop in something, typically resolution for more complicated scenery. Less complex scenes coupled with a drop in resolution can sustain a high framerate in a performance starved system, hence why mario kart 8 was 720p and not 1080p despite claims that it was 1080p. The realization of the hardware performance will prevent that from being a reality, no matter how much you optimize the software.

Click to expand...

Yeah you're talking about PC and how that understanding is encapsulated. No one mentioned threading although the Wii U almost certainly has alot available to it and makes extremely efficient use of it overall. Its part of IBM's ISA scaling. Wii U's MCM, is totally a different beast than what most people are used to understanding. Efficient data processing isn't necessarily the sum of optimization with modern processor technology. In Wii U's case, its a number of process gains, not the least being the absence of scheduling to the same degree that you are used to hearing about and thus allows the off chip RAM to simply feed process. Its almost the opposite of what you understand in the home x86 space as its significantly removed from the need of many of its compiler optimization due to staged pipelining purely dependent on vector math.

The issue here is in the management of the process data in the first place at the micro-code level. Data processing speed is definately not an issue, but with the much larger single instruction provided by the eDRAM (memory that inteconnects the entire MCM), along much shorter pipelines and having removed ordering. - In time with the RAM you essentially have an extremely low latency renderout. One has to remember that with IBM ISA's one can work with a full pipeline or staged, its up to you and it even has the capability to interpret both in the same structure, you're not governed by compiler tricks due to inefficient staged pipelining and thus the inclusion of OOoE was instigated to delimit flip-flop latency even further when you do. This is hardware mind you, not interfacing, its what the chip does.

What it won't do is magically organise your workspace and thus you will need to spend some time to interface this so that the workload is managed better. Until you can unify that you will be limited to doing what you already know how to do. The pure specifics of this is something you need to talk to people like Shin'en about as they seem to be very approachable with any specific questions through the Unity boards. If you know what to ask then don't hesitate to ask them.

If you want to learn more about the dissemination then IBM has a whole website devoted to it and I recomend anyone with doubts go and read about it. As it is. This post with either be deleted or moved to the Spec Hardware and Graphics thread as Nintendo users are forbidden to disseminate hardware in this lobby.

Click to expand...

Do please explain how IBM's CPU changes the rendering pipeline being a by product of the GPU's fillrate?

Not all quality AA solutions need to be multiple sample anymore, some actual quality post processing techniques aren't that far behind nowadays. It's not as good as 4x MSAA or higher but if you want 60 frames as Nintendo seems to be pretty heavily supporting on Wii U it's not a bad trade off.

Not all quality AA solutions need to be multiple sample anymore, some actual quality post processing techniques aren't that far behind nowadays. It's not as good as 4x MSAA or higher but if you want 60 frames as Nintendo seems to be pretty heavily supporting on Wii U it's not a bad trade off.

Click to expand...

Anouma said future Zelda's don't have to be 60fps I'm expecting 30.

Click to expand...

Not entirely sure how 60FPS would benifit a game like this anyway. Riding and Flying maybe, but there is no other real reason for it. Wii U circumvents all the Gen 7 failings so I think going for the best quality scene is most likely the top priority.

Not all quality AA solutions need to be multiple sample anymore, some actual quality post processing techniques aren't that far behind nowadays. It's not as good as 4x MSAA or higher but if you want 60 frames as Nintendo seems to be pretty heavily supporting on Wii U it's not a bad trade off.

GTA V also ran quite a bit below 30 frames per second when much of anything was going on. It often fell below 20 frames per second when things got really complicated. I think it's quite unlikely that Nintendo targets 1080P with Zelda because they'd have a hell of a time keeping that running at a steady framerate which historically Nintendo has been all about steady framerates vs higher resolutions.

This type of game would in my opinion benefit more from targeting 720p at 60 frames with quality anti-alaising.

Click to expand...

I agree. I'd prefer 720p/60fps with higher AA over 1080p/30fps.

I just disagree with the notion that the Wii U can't get better than 720p/30fps

I'm guessing the game will be in 720p, 60 frames. Nothing wrong with that. It still looks great, along with tons of other games at that same resolution. But the game won't look exactly like that video. The game is still a couple of years out.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

Click to expand...

To be fair though, MK8 also does all of that at 60fps with two player split screen. They intentionally held the visuals back so that things wouldn't have an extreme downgrade once more players were added.

We've seen a lot of press images for Wii U that were 1080p, when the game itself was 720p. I'm not going to expect anything from this. The only possibility is that they reach 60fps. But given the scope that they are going for, I'd expect 720p/30fps.

Click to expand...

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

Click to expand...

Again, I'm not saying they can make Zelda U 1080p/60fps

Im saying you have no basis saying they can't do better than 30fps at 720p

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

Click to expand...

To be fair though, MK8 also does all of that at 60fps with two player split screen. They intentionally held the visuals back so that things wouldn't have an extreme downgrade once more players were added.

Click to expand...

And that's great. But the scope and detail of this open world Zelda, compared to a track in Mario
Kart 8 is on a whole other level. Also, the detail of the in game characters appear much higher than those in Mario Kart 8. It's simply a much more detailed game, and in order for all of that be achieved, I do not believe that they will get the game running at 1080p/30fps.

You expect 720p/30fps even though the artistic style of the game alleviates them from having to push polygons in a way a more detailed game, like GTAV, might demand?

Look, even you would agree the Wii U is more powerful than the xbox360. And that box was running GTAV 720p/30fps.

Why dont you think the Wii U and Nintendo gods can achieve higher than that with what they are going for with Zelda?

Click to expand...

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

Click to expand...

Again, I'm not saying they can make Zelda U 1080p/60fps

Im saying you have no basis saying they can't do better than 30fps at 720p

Click to expand...

How about the basis that no games, that appear to be pushing the console, have been able to achieve 1080p? And why would they try? One minute you guys seem to think that Nintendo has no interest in higher resolutions, then the next minute you think that they will sacrifice detail in an open world game, for a higher resolution.

I will be more shocked than I was with the Zelda reveal, if the game also turns out to be native 1080p.

What about Mario Kart 8? The game is far more limited in scope and is limited to 720p, though it is able to lock onto 60fps. Zelda looks super detailed, utilizes high polygon assets and has a really nice looking lighting/particle system. I simply cannot imagine the game being able to maintain 1080p and an acceptable frame rate.

But, I'm not going to argue this all day. You'll just have to accept it as reality, sooner or later, just like Mario 3D World, Tropical Freeze and Mario Kart 8 before it.

Click to expand...

To be fair though, MK8 also does all of that at 60fps with two player split screen. They intentionally held the visuals back so that things wouldn't have an extreme downgrade once more players were added.

Click to expand...

And that's great. But the scope and detail of this open world Zelda, compared to a track in Mario
Kart 8 is on a whole other level. Also, the detail of the in game characters appear much higher than those in Mario Kart 8. It's simply a much more detailed game, and in order for all of that be achieved, I do not believe that they will get the game running at 1080p/30fps.

Click to expand...

yes but the shaders are simpler than those in mariokart, polygoncount doesn´t make any notable difference in fps as far as i know from my pc games, shadow quality and complicated shaders and posteffect shaders are the most dragging on the pixelrate

To be fair though, MK8 also does all of that at 60fps with two player split screen. They intentionally held the visuals back so that things wouldn't have an extreme downgrade once more players were added.

Click to expand...

And that's great. But the scope and detail of this open world Zelda, compared to a track in Mario
Kart 8 is on a whole other level. Also, the detail of the in game characters appear much higher than those in Mario Kart 8. It's simply a much more detailed game, and in order for all of that be achieved, I do not believe that they will get the game running at 1080p/30fps.

Click to expand...

yes but the shaders are simpler than those in mariokart, polygoncount doesn´t make any notable difference in fps as far as i know from my pc games, shadow quality and complicated shaders and posteffect shaders are the most dragging on the pixelrate

Click to expand...

How are the shaders simpler in Zelda? It looks to be using even more high quality, modern shaders than Mario Kart 8. And polygon draw is going to effect fps, just that it's not the sole factor.

toonshader(very light on recources) vs sss like shader on the characters and all kinds of reflective and whatnot shaders on the tracks, i think theres a huge difference in processing.

when switch between light geometry and detailed geometry in pc games theres no difference in fps as the pixelshader only cares for the pixel it has to render no matter on which polygon that happens. polygons are a cpu thing

toonshader(very light on recources) vs sss like shader on the characters and all kinds of reflective and whatnot shaders on the tracks, i think theres a huge difference in processing.

when switch between light geometry and detailed geometry in pc games theres no difference in fps as the pixelshader only cares for the pixel it has to render no matter on which polygon that happens. polygons are a cpu thing

Click to expand...

It still uses the same lighting engine that Nintendo used in Wind Waker HD and in Mario Kart 8, and it uses volumetric mist and clouds, that distort the source of light. We also see some pretty heft shader effects being used for the explosions, we see destructible environments, particle effects for smoke and sparks, high quality shaders on the water, etc. It's not being dumbed down by using cell shading, because it's still using a lot of advanced shaders. Mario Kart 8 was a very simplistic game, with a small scope. It just looked particularly good because of that very same lighting engine and a few other nice shaders.