A New Deal for Science and Religion

Those who argue that religion should be counted out are overlooking the role that religious leaders played in overcoming segregation in America, repealing apartheid in South Africa, and ending the communist dictatorship in Poland and Central Europe. That religion has not always lived up to its own ideals does not mean it hasn’t also made important contributions to social justice.

Religion is a repository of the time-tested wisdom of the ages, and a purveyor of precepts that have acquired the mantle of tradition. But as every reformer knows, tradition has its downside. Old moral codes can legitimize patterns of indignity; premonitions of a fairer world are then strangled in the crib. While the heavy hand of tradition saves us from our worst, too often it keeps us from our best.

Tradition and precedent, sometimes bolstered with assertions of infallibility, constitute a high hurdle that any new social or political model must clear. A case in point was the twentieth-century shift in the prevailing societal consensus on issues of race, gender, marriage, divorce, birth control, and sex. After decades of debate, new values gradually displaced older ones in the public mind. Where religious doctrine failed to adjust, the public gradually stopped paying attention. This has likely been a factor in the precipitous decline, since World War II, of church attendance in Europe. Over the long term, people increasingly look not to their church, synagogue, or mosque for their views on how to live and how to vote, but rather to culture and politics. This same trend is now becoming visible in the United States.

When either science or religion allies itself with a partisan political doctrine—no matter if it’s Left or Right—it weds itself to the biases of a particular time. That is what Soviet supporters of Lysenko did in the 1930s. It’s what churchmen who supported Nazism did when they invoked religious beliefs in support of the state’s nationalistic and anti-Semitic agenda.

Likewise, when religion attaches itself to particular social or political models—for example, racial segregation or sexual mores—it eventually loses relevance in those domains. To chain theology to the ship of state is to go down with the ship when it sinks. The nineteenth-century English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley, an early champion of Darwin’s theory of evolution, pointed out that, in just this way, “Science commits suicide when it adopts a creed.” Untold suffering is often the result of such partisan mistakes, and they are avoidable.

For example, when Alfred Kinsey’s studies on sexuality revealed the full range of human sexual behavior, we had two choices. We could label some of the behaviors that came to light “perverted,” and try to suppress them. Or, we could look upon the behaviors that Kinsey’s research revealed as falling within an enlarged domain of “normal” and modify our prescriptive models accordingly. The advent of reliable birth control only intensified the pressure to revise traditional sexual norms. The ensuing sexual revolution suggests that the public is moving toward a new consensus on sexuality.

What does this perspective suggest regarding the current debate about broadening the definition of marriage to include partners of the same sex? In the end, the matter will be decided not by the victory of one or another interpretation of scripture, but by reference to emerging social values, very much as disagreements over slavery and, a century later, segregation, were decided. As it became clear that second-class citizenship was indefensible, attempts to justify these practices through religion were abandoned and instead other religious values were enlisted on behalf of emancipation and desegregation.

If barring same-sex marriage is viewed as an infringement on the civil rights of homosexuals, then the tide of history suggests that these barriers will fall. Despite frustratingly slow progress and numerous setbacks, it’s hard to find examples of campaigns for equal minority rights—that is, movements to end second-class citizenship—that do not ultimately succeed. In the long run inclusiveness beats exclusiveness; dignity for all trumps indignity for some. Religion could as well lay claim to this general insight (which it co-authored), and consistently champion the indignified, as give its blessing to one or another kind of second-class citizenship.

The movement toward more inclusive, participatory models of governance shows no signs of abating in the twenty-first century. Protests for dignity and democracy have erupted in the Middle East, Russia, Burma, China and across the United States in the form of the Occupy Movement.

Let’s take a moment to consider what it would take for religion and science to end their stand-off and support each other’s role in the pursuit of universal dignity.

Moral laws can be seen as intuitions, based on observation, that are then elevated to absolute truths. It’s the elevation to absolutes that leads to trouble, not the intuitive guesswork that’s common to discoveries of all kinds. So, one way to resolve the perennial war between science and religion is for religion to accept science’s methodology and defend religious precepts much as scientists defend theirs. In such a framework, both science and religion would reserve the right to speculate and, before expecting others to accept their findings, they’d assume responsibility for demonstrating the validity of their ideas and theories by marshaling evidence for their support.

Such an understanding does not preclude specialization. Religion is free to imagine new worlds and to suggest things it cannot prove. Guessing the answer is a respected way of doing science and so scientists don’t have a leg to stand on when they dismiss religion as guesswork.

First you guess. Don’t laugh, this is the most important step. Then you compute the consequences. Compare the consequences to experience. If it disagrees with experience, the guess is wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t matter how beautiful your guess is or how smart you are or what your name is. If it disagrees with experience, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it. – Richard Feynman

Science tests these guesses and intuitions against the evidence. Religion can do no less.

Under the terms of this deal, religion would be more humble about its teachings, acknowledging that they are sometimes wrong. When a hypothesis is disproven, religion would gracefully accept the result and propose something else. When science confirms one of religion’s guesses, it gives credit where credit is due for having “divined” the answer before it could be established beyond doubt (that is, verified to the satisfaction of investigators who were initially neutral or skeptical).

In time, science and religion would come to see each other as complementary aspects of a common truth-seeking strategy. Religion specializes in identifying cutting-edge, revelatory insights into human psychological and social dynamics (seemingly out of thin air, but actually, intuitively, after close observation). For its part, science specializes in testing these insights against the evidence, and either disproving or confirming them. Both vocations are at liberty to encroach on the other’s traditional turf.

Under this arrangement, science and religion would likely retain something of their traditional flavors, but gradually each would incorporate into its practice the others’ perspective. With the roles of science and religion clarified, their relationship would be characterized by mutually respect and collaboration. On matters for which there is insufficient evidence, people would be free to disagree. The difference, though, is that they would cease to berate and demean each other.

By interpreting religious principles not as holy, inerrant writ, but as fallible truths that are discovered in the same way as other truths, religion can defend itself against accusations that it is another self-serving institution, and, by assuming a leadership role in the transition to a post-predatory world, help realize the prophetic vision of peace on Earth, goodwill toward men.

For centuries, religion has served peoples’ emotional needs with its art and music, its theater and counsel. This will no doubt continue. But, as dignity’s defender of last resort, a new revivifying role for religion can be envisioned. In it, religion would:

• Provide a forum for debating and disseminating proposed models of morality • Research and develop models that extend dignity to people subjected to indignity • Facilitate society-wide and world-wide conversations aimed at defining exactly what is meant by “equal dignity for all”—until a broad consensus is achieved • Assume the role of coach to organizations as they bring their practices in line with dignity-affirming values • Support the dignity movement as it did the civil rights movement • Teach the latest findings on the workings of the mind and the dynamics of self-transformation • Offer enlightenment and creativity training (analogous to literacy training) • Support scientific and spiritual seekers by reminding them of the mythic nature of the quest for truth • Imagine better futures—such as the brotherhood of man—and ennoble our quests to actualize those dreams

With the advent of a beautiful friendship between science and religion, there is indeed reason to hope.

I just do not see the things that religion is bringing to the table in this deal. Philosophy has the ability to bring the same things as religion, and tends to bring up the same topics at a deeper more well reasoned way. When there are those "...matters for which there is insufficient evidence..." I think W K Clifford said it best, "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

That is what religion does, it causes people to believe on insufficient evidence.(aka Faith) The faith aspect of religion could hurt the acceptance of new or radical scientific findings, and hold back human advancement. Abandoning unjustified beliefs should be the goal of human intellectual advancement, and mainly for this reason "Every time we let ourselves believe for unworthy reasons, we weaken our powers of self-control, of doubting, of judicially and fairly weighing evidence. We all suffer severely enough from the maintenance and support of false beliefs and the fatally wrong actions which they lead to.... But a greater and wider evil arises when the credulous character is maintained and supported, when a habit of believing for unworthy reasons is fostered and made permanent." (W.K. Clifford, Ethics of belief)

Lucas Religion is a type of philosophy. The problem is that too many people dont want to call the bible or other religious books just philosophy. They want to call it the word of god and absolute truth. Its not up for debate with some people. This is the problem.

Mr. Fuller offers a diplomatic invitation to these old antagonists by clarifying their apparent distinctions and the several harmonics which color all our lives. We submitted a somewhat more specific essay to Daily Kos and were roundly disparaged as 'mad, insane, and even evil.' There a few commentators intervened and called off the hounds by explaining the futility of such mean spirited attacks.

Mr. Fuller writes in the same humor.

In our experience modern versions of Science and Religion have benefited by competing for approval but once either position becomes political their advocates lose their balance and no longer seek the truth but only to validate their respective ideals and personalities.

We find that Science addresses the 'what' of reality while Religion deals with the 'who.' Adversaries mix the two and defend their identity by claiming to possess the only truth about the physical universe. The Bible resolves both topics into a single story about the Man Jesus who discovered a special relationship with His 'Soul.' We are offered the opportunity to 'follow' the Lord in our own quest for identity.

Arnold Toynbee in his Study of History found that Human progress toward a more civilized world was always a religious process and that knowledge has increased in concert with religious freedom when an informed minority of Shamans and Priests and Philosophers
managed to introduce the option of peace in place of war.

Toynbee explains that nations tend to regard their own political reality as the best available even though they are culturally identical to their neighbors.

World Peace is not possible when a national ego runs against the larger sociological model that is driven by a single common religion. American ideology assumes superiority over other nations and over different religions without a real basis in their assumptions of value of the individual members of the population. The European experiment as a common market intends to unify Europe based on 'things' instead of on 'beings.'

The next and final stage of world civilization will take advantage of the power of the English language to express a single social cosmology that satisfies the need of every individual to possess an identity that is linked to the whole Planet.

These prerequisites all fit the story of Jesus Christ. By this we mean that we all inherit from the Gospels the ways and the means to be drawn into a single social community.

Thanks for your insightful comment jesusjamey. Your experience at DKos was a lot like mine. I'm posting this series there, too, and it has drawn quite a few sarcastic comments. The vocabulary we use to speak of these matters is itself ambiguous and many do not have the patience to see how words are being used. For example, atheist physicists will use the term "god" in private as shorthand for the "inner thrust of the cosmos as revealed by the laws of physics." But a quick read might lead some to infer from their use of the word god that the speaker was a person of faith.

In posting a series of 20 posts, which add up to a short book, I'm really running an experiment: to see if any light can be shed on these contentious questions. I believe it is urgent to do so.

In response to some of the criticism leveled at these posts at DailyKos, I wrote this:

As I've said, I am aware of religion's failings. But one element in making peace with antagonists is to acknowledge what, if anything, they got right. For example, this was important in working with Soviet citizens to end the Cold War. Many of them knew their system was broken. So, too, many churchmen and churchgoers know that religion has lost its grip over people with a global perspective and exposure to higher education. (Church attendance in Britain went from 90 to 7 % during the 20th c.)

I think it's time to end the cold war between religion and science. There will be people who resist this; who demand that religion first admit its mistakes; who want to see it humiliated. Christopher Hitchens performed that task. No one will ever do it better. Now it's time to look at the whole history of religion and see what, if anything, it got right.

When the same perspective was brought to bear on the USSR those of us who worked to end the Cold War came up with a few things we genuinely admired about the USSR. For example, the Red Army had defeated the Germans; the USSR provided universal health care and free access to higher ed.) Once Soviet citizens realized that we understood that their entire history had not been in vain, that their suffering had been of some value, they were much readier to break with their past.

I think the same dynamic may apply to religion. Let's at least try giving believers some respect. Many religious are suffering, as were Soviet citizens, under the current theological patriarchy. They're the ones who will most loudly insist on reforms, and sarcasm and condescension from non-believers won't speed up the process.

To sum up, I've looked for what I could admire in religion's long history. Having found a few things (e.g., "dignity for all," as a pillar of policy) upon which religious and non-religious might agree, I'm proposing to build on that in ways that enlist the energy and passion of believers, agnostics, and atheists alike.
When religion finally threw its weight behind civil rights, Jim Crow was delegitimized in a few short years. The movement was in fact led by a pastor. If religion were to cooperate with science to operationalize "dignity for all," the odds that Homo sapiens will make it through the century go up. The only thing as important as how we treat the Earth is how we treat each other. I'll deal with some existential threats to our (and other) species in the concluding post in this series.

I have no illusions that peace between science and religion is imminent. But I do think the next generation of scientists and religious will come to the table weary of old antagonisms and willing, like Rick (Humphrey Bogart) and Louis (Claude Rains) to explore a beautiful friendship.

My next guide would be Ken Wilbur [Sex Ecology and Spirituality]. He does a great job with the sensitive Sexual matters of male and female prejudice and rationalizes the distinct nature of each, describing Females as communicators while he sees males as agents. The huge book sorts out the story of humankind into a logical readable system. He only falls short of writing a perfect book because he does not understand Jesus to be important to the modern human condition.http://www.integralworld.net/rev/rev_ses_glickmann.html

And I already mentioned Toynbee, whose Study of History supports our position even though the man could not overcome his own atheism which probably enabled him to study the past with an open mind and heart but obviously blocked him from attaining full enlightenment as to the role of spirit in the world.

Mr. Fuller, I have focused myself on discovering the means by which the Lord would be able to return to our world and complete His prophecy. That being a political agenda my search was launched when I realized two things:

a. He must inherit the right according to some legal position;
b. He would be (re)born naturally within the British empire.

Since I am half Indian and a native of the Province of British Columbia, Canada, I either sensed or wished that the Totem Pole culture would figure in the advent. I studied in the common Law of England and found that there is a principle which says all land issues must trace back to the garden of Eden to be noticeable by the courts. this is the basis for the Crown of England being the Head of the Church of England as well as the head of that State (and Empire).

How might one trace anything to Eden?

When reading Schroeder's Science of God I came across a term which is present in my grandmother's language, being the first term in the Bible for mankind (Genesis 1;26-27) spelled (without vowels) TS'LM. Our tribal identity is spelled TSIMSIAN, which can easily be derived from Ts'lm and would be pronounced the same way. Following this discovery I have found several other terms which support my claim that Tsalmalkit is a devolved version of the Aramaic that was spoken by the family of Jesus. The most notable term after Tsalm is KITS, which I say is devolved from the term CHRIST.

The question then, is how did this language reach the area of the Northwest Coast of America?

I believe that the STORY of Jesus split at Greece and what took until 1776 to reach our ancestors by way of Europe had already arrived from Asia, circa 1233 A.D. The logic behind my claim is that something reasonably recent spawned the expansion on this coast of the Totem Pole culture, outward from two areas, Haida Gwaii and Kitanmaax (now mispelled Gitanmaax).

The reason this is important to your project, Sir, is because people are not receptive to information which does not "notice" them personally.

In Canada the Constitution requires governments and others to "recognize and affirm Indian Titles and claims." I am making such a claim in the name of Jesus Christ and as KITSilano, who is a known Chief.

I am making little headway but am confident that time and events are converging towards a worldwide recognition that this is happening. Your work bolsters my confidence.

Two further comments:

In our Potlatch culture two terms are repeated in gatherings which bear translation in the context we are discussing, ADAAWK and AYOAK. Adawwk means story or history and Ayoak means law. The speakers say law comes from the story and the story is the law. This phrasing is biblical but more important to our interest, I invite you to consider that all the others around the world like us who face the problem of how to communicate the details of our beliefs, can simply repeat the mantra that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, not scientifically but as a personal prescription for finding their own personal story and that is really all anyone wants and needs.

Would it be comfortable for you to accept that Jesus is in you the way His father was in Him? I sense that what He was sayiong is that His life was determined for him by his ancestry but also by a real conscious connection with a fatherly figure who guided Him toward His own choices; see his passion in the garden.

I detected that Ken Wilbur could not attsin to such a belief about himself because his human ego (Scientific prejudice against Jesus) would not accept that he, Wilbur, also has a Divine identity.

The second point I wish you to consider is taken from the prophecy
that "many will come in my name and say I am Christ, but do not believe them." If we all contain 'Christ' in our DNA and in our consciousness because we know the Story of Him then our task is not so much to establish that true Religion is Scientific, but that our true Human Nature is to be Christlike and when we do so, we find another plane of intelligence.

This last point is reinforced by Peter Plichta's writing.

I have been trying to compose an explanation of Plichta's position because his 24-hour clock can so readily be understood as describing how Infinity and the Temporal are coexistent in our experience. The model of the clock proves that Light delivers information to us as Humans which is inherent in all of the Universe, from the micro to the macro. Those who discover this fact can only be be brought to realize that an external consciousness to our own is communicating to us that we are central to the whole drama of reality.

A final idea about how we will transcend nationalism:

Jesus was visited by the 3 wise Kings or Magi and in rev. 16 it says all things are in preparation for the Kings of the East. Who are they then? The 3 Sons of Noah would now be a European Monarch (Britain), an Asian descendant of the Chinese Imperial Dynasty, and a Negro.

In my argument on my claim I say the Negro Heir lives in Skidegate on Haida Gwaii and the Asian heir resides in Kitanmaax. These heirs will be entitled to the legacies of the Totem Pole culture but would not yet be aware of their biblical inheritances. If you follow me in this argument you will appreciate why Obama is your President and how Oprah will be attracted to this Adaawk.

I hope you have time to think about these ideas and will let me know how they fit your cosmology.

I look forward to reading your full project. I am heartened by it and will be busy redrafting my own.

Hello, again. I've read your comment, which is almost as long as my post. You should pursue the project and post it at a variety of websites, perhaps in a series as I've done because people can only take in so much in a sitting. I'm so busy now writing and posting the next (and concluding) five posts, that I can't follow the leads you've given me just now. I do know of Ken Wilber's work, and I once met the man. Peter Plichta is new to me, but I was trained in math and physics and have long been enamored of prime numbers, so the title of his book is intriguing. When you write a comment on these posts, it's read by hundreds of others. I'm sure you'll find people among them who are interested in your work, and you can tell them where you decide to post more about it.

My next guide would be Ken Wilbur [Sex Ecology and Spirituality]. He does a great job with the sensitive Sexual matters of male and female prejudice and rationalizes the distinct nature of each, describing Females as communicators while he sees males as agents. The huge book sorts out the story of humankind into a logical readable system. He only falls short of writing a perfect book because he does not understand Jesus to be important to the modern human condition.http://www.integralworld.net/rev/rev_ses_glickmann.html

And I already mentioned Toynbee, whose Study of History supports our position even though the man could not overcome his own atheism which probably enabled him to study the past with an open mind and heart but obviously blocked him from attaining full enlightenment as to the role of spirit in the world.

Mr. Fuller, I have focused myself on discovering the means by which the Lord would be able to return to our world and complete His prophecy. That being a political agenda my search was launched when I realized two things:

a. He must inherit the right according to some legal position;
b. He would be (re)born naturally within the British empire.

Since I am half Indian and a native of the Province of British Columbia, Canada, I either sensed or wished that the Totem Pole culture would figure in the advent. I studied in the common Law of England and found that there is a principle which says all land issues must trace back to the garden of Eden to be noticeable by the courts. this is the basis for the Crown of England being the Head of the Church of England as well as the head of that State (and Empire).

How might one trace anything to Eden?

When reading Schroeder's Science of God I came across a term which is present in my grandmother's language, being the first term in the Bible for mankind (Genesis 1;26-27) spelled (without vowels) TS'LM. Our tribal identity is spelled TSIMSIAN, which can easily be derived from Ts'lm and would be pronounced the same way. Following this discovery I have found several other terms which support my claim that Tsalmalkit is a devolved version of the Aramaic that was spoken by the family of Jesus. The most notable term after Tsalm is KITS, which I say is devolved from the term CHRIST.

The question then, is how did this language reach the area of the Northwest Coast of America?

I believe that the STORY of Jesus split at Greece and what took until 1776 to reach our ancestors by way of Europe had already arrived from Asia, circa 1233 A.D. The logic behind my claim is that something reasonably recent spawned the expansion on this coast of the Totem Pole culture, outward from two areas, Haida Gwaii and Kitanmaax (now mispelled Gitanmaax).

The reason this is important to your project, Sir, is because people are not receptive to information which does not "notice" them personally.

In Canada the Constitution requires governments and others to "recognize and affirm Indian Titles and claims." I am making such a claim in the name of Jesus Christ and as KITSilano, who is a known Chief.

I am making little headway but am confident that time and events are converging towards a worldwide recognition that this is happening. Your work bolsters my confidence.

Two further comments:

In our Potlatch culture two terms are repeated in gatherings which bear translation in the context we are discussing, ADAAWK and AYOAK. Adawwk means story or history and Ayoak means law. The speakers say law comes from the story and the story is the law. This phrasing is biblical but more important to our interest, I invite you to consider that all the others around the world like us who face the problem of how to communicate the details of our beliefs, can simply repeat the mantra that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, not scientifically but as a personal prescription for finding their own personal story and that is really all anyone wants and needs.

Would it be comfortable for you to accept that Jesus is in you the way His father was in Him? I sense that what He was sayiong is that His life was determined for him by his ancestry but also by a real conscious connection with a fatherly figure who guided Him toward His own choices; see his passion in the garden.

I detected that Ken Wilbur could not attsin to such a belief about himself because his human ego (Scientific prejudice against Jesus) would not accept that he, Wilbur, also has a Divine identity.

The second point I wish you to consider is taken from the prophecy
that "many will come in my name and say I am Christ, but do not believe them." If we all contain 'Christ' in our DNA and in our consciousness because we know the Story of Him then our task is not so much to establish that true Religion is Scientific, but that our true Human Nature is to be Christlike and when we do so, we find another plane of intelligence.

This last point is reinforced by Peter Plichta's writing.

I have been trying to compose an explanation of Plichta's position because his 24-hour clock can so readily be understood as describing how Infinity and the Temporal are coexistent in our experience. The model of the clock proves that Light delivers information to us as Humans which is inherent in all of the Universe, from the micro to the macro. Those who discover this fact can only be be brought to realize that an external consciousness to our own is communicating to us that we are central to the whole drama of reality.

A final idea about how we will transcend nationalism:

Jesus was visited by the 3 wise Kings or Magi and in rev. 16 it says all things are in preparation for the Kings of the East. Who are they then? The 3 Sons of Noah would now be a European Monarch (Britain), an Asian descendant of the Chinese Imperial Dynasty, and a Negro.

In my argument on my claim I say the Negro Heir lives in Skidegate on Haida Gwaii and the Asian heir resides in Kitanmaax. These heirs will be entitled to the legacies of the Totem Pole culture but would not yet be aware of their biblical inheritances. If you follow me in this argument you will appreciate why Obama is your President and how Oprah will be attracted to this Adaawk.

I hope you have time to think about these ideas and will let me know how they fit your cosmology.

I look forward to reading your full project. I am heartened by it and will be busy redrafting my own.

We are profoundly moved by your elegant response and guided by your advice.

We have redrafted our clumsier edition of the following (in Daily Kos)and invite you to critique it from your stand point and world view. We believe your credibility can help this reach those who will release the knowledge to all those around the globe who are in pain and under duress.

Robert Fuller, the Haida are truly a people apart and I have no doubt they are the direct descendants of Eve, while the Khitan descend from Adam's line. Haida Jaata, Women, rule with a deftness that must be shared with the world's population.

WHAT IS TIME?

Time is a term of the language we use to organize our relationship with the Universe, albeit only a mere portion of the total reality within which our Universe of Earth, Heaven and under Earth is structured. Time is both noun and verb. To comprehend time one must first contemplate upon and understand the origins of "numbers" within Infinity. Infinity is equivalent to Zero in the arithmetical model and Infinity has no physically discernible center nor any boundaries but is everywhere centered on our consciousness. Infinity extends infinitely outward from our minds and simultaneously inward from our minds.

The evidence for the above is present in the 24-hour clock. Draw same and separate the Prime Numbers from the ordinary numbers by connecting them with diameters through the center of the clock and one has drawn the Maltese or St. John's Cross, or as Peter Plichta names it, the 'Prime Number Cross.' Prime numbers extend to infinity, inward and outward, and each pair of these Primes is adjacent to a 6 or multiple of 6 (12, 18, and 24/1).

What does it mean that the clock is organized in this way?

Well the clock represents the process of sunlight forming shade by being interrupted when it falls on the earth. Since we discern order in this model based on the discrete relationship of the Primes and the common numbers, we may rightly accept that there is a conscious design in the model. The design forms a relationship between the Infinite and the temporary which our minds can relate to and take instruction from. The instruction is consistent with the Judeao-Christian-Islamic STORY. An Infinite consciousness is obviously communicating information which we understand and to which MIND we pray. This means to us that the external Infinite Mind (or a Superior Mind that is located outside of Infinity in the realm we refer to as Heaven) is compatible with our mortal minds. This is the relationship that animated the life of Jesus the Son of Mary.

This model is the source of our belief in the higher power, defining higher as being more complete than our own powers. By higher we do not mean superior in ability but that the higher mind possesses more information than we presently hold. This is logical since we started the model from Infinity where all possibilities exist and where all knowledge is present. We exist at a time and place in between Infinity and a perfected World, while Heaven exists as our guide toward perfection. Our faithful ancestors occupy Heaven; others await their time to return to earth and then reach heaven by accepting the gospels. Time is inherently the process of consciousness becoming materialized and then transcending that material existence in Heaven, Heaven being distinct from Infinity as well.

The next question is 'what is religion'? Why do we not know all things?

We interpret history to have been interrupted by the Great Flood so that the knowledge of the Prime Number Cross which was originally acquired in the 'Garden of Eden' was largely lost. Noah being a carpenter was acquainted with numbers and so his family retained the fundamentals of human existence and his 3 sons then conveyed to their generations the basics of that knowledge, including the belief in "God" and of course they possessed numbers as the one true or scientific language. This generation prospered and built the Tower of Babel, which was then destroyed, scattering the people and confusing the world with the many languages now present among the nations. This is why Science functions as a language of numbers seeking further numbers.

Religion is not a rival of Science but merely the human attempt to find the true story of reality. Our ancestors from Moses on endured their time attempting to establish the fact of the Heavenly realm of consciousness. Jesus completed that task by surviving the Cross. Since experience tends to confirm the Story but science doesn't, being incapable of identifying and describing the source of our own consciousness, it is the task of Religion to constantly alter the shape of our consciousness according to the context in which we test the momentary content of our faith.

The Bible, we say, is more Story than any other thing. Being mere story the Science of the Scriptures is always couched in dramatic metaphor or is characterized as the personal experience of a protagonist, while the more purely spiritual events are cloaked in the mystery of the lost key to the story. The life of Jesus proves that we are all capable of attaining to Heavenly perfection by joining His story.

So is time a phenomenon or nuomenon?

We suggest that time is to be understood as both, like the Light and the darkness that was measured when Numbers were discovered, time is a conscious nuomenon but also a physical phenomenon because of the fact that we are discussing Time as a noun on this page.

Numbers are not mere ideas but consist of real elements, otherwise what is Chemistry? The Periodic Table translates Numbers into the Chemical Elements which form the material Universe (within Infinity, remember). Hydrogen is #1. Helium, #2 and so as soon as these two distinct materials exist they try to destroy each other, by which process they become real (LIGHT) and go on to form the 81 elements that make up the material (or SHADOW) Universe. This event is known to us as the Big Bang which occurred when ONE broke free from INFINITY and then became TWO, et cetera up to 81. Notice that radioactivity is the process of the 'heavier elements' converging back into a form of death, being back in the Infinite form, back in Zero, relative to ourselves.

Numbers also form letters and letters formulate the words you are reading.

St. John is correct saying that "In the beginning was the word ..."

This computer converts words to the numbers 1 and zero and back again as we communicate. Each letter in the written alphabet has a numeric value beginning with A, which is valued at six (6 ones), and all of the subsequent numbers are found at increments of 6 (b=12, c=18 ...). By this process and within this structure consciousness produces reality. The particular reality of Earth is rooted in Infinity but is temporal because only some certain numbers, the Primes, connect us to the Infinite while the common numbers only exist on Earth and within the totality of the Conscious Mind that is authoring our story of Christ.

We might go further and explain that the number 4, the first common number, is a root of human spoken and written languages. Count the letters in any word you care to compose using the alphabet; convert the number to its word and count the letters in that word; repeat and you ultimately arrive at the word four which has 4 letters, and you thus have the key to spoken languages; 4 always has four letters. Being a common or temporary number, the word four can describe 4 ones, or two 2's, therefore being indefinite in the way that all Primes are definite and absolute. This is why Humans can tell the truth or not, because words are mutable. Numbers remain immutable.

Similarly the number six can be 6, or 2 threes, or 3 twos and six = 1+2+3 or 1x2x3.

10 is 1+2+3+4 and 24 is 1x2x3x4. These numbers were discovered, not invented, when the Ancients measured Light and Shadow.

Other evidence that numbers are as real as the solar system is found in the number 273.2 and 273.2 is the sidereal number of the moon's orbit relative to Earth’s orbit. It is also the duration of pregnancy.

The 81 elements have a reciprocal value that explains Quantum Mechanics. (too complicated to explain here but see Peter Plichta's Prime Number Cross theories). Basically 1/81 is representative of a value less than our Zero; notice that 1/81= 0.012345678901234567890 ad infinitum. Numbers themselves are infinite and without limit.

The conclusion then, to the question about TIME is, yes and no, time is merely a concept but TIME is also everything that is not material. Time is a real nuomenon/phenomenon involving real numbers and their reciprocals but TIME actually only exists in terms of the Human Story. Time for us is merely the duration of Acts like in a play or movie so, is the play real?

Are we real?

The answer to this last riddle depends on Christ. The way and the truth and the life is a choice open to each soul on the Earth, in Heaven and under the Earth.

Christ is the human personification of the harmonization of Infinity and Earth and Heaven.
There would be no time in Heaven but time does operate on Earth in the way most commentators suggest in this thread.

Under the Earth is the harsh place where all the mind has time for is to contemplate TIME: tick, tick, tick.

So what time is it?

Revelation 16:12 says all these scriptures are preparing the way of the Kings of the East and since we remember that 3 Magi visited Jesus at His birth in Bethlehem, we presume that there are three such monarchs. The problem inflicting the modern world is the result of the scattering of the three families descended from Noah's sons. The International model is no longer competent to maintain order in the world, nor within the nations. The anticipated solution is to find Jesus but to do that He says we must first locate the missing Kings of the East.

Where O where might these Kings be? Or to be less sexist and because we have Her Majesty in England, where are our other two Queens?.

Go to Ezekiel 37:15 ... and you find a clue: we know the Cross to be one of the two sticks in this chapter but what about the second stick? We refer you to the Totem Pole culture on the west coast of America, in Canada and the USA. Circa 1233 A.D. the royal families of the Black Race and the Yellow race migrated across the Pacific Ocean to this coast in order to escape from Genghis Khan who was intent on eliminating all known rivals to his authority. One rival was from the Khitan who sat on the throne of China from 900 A.D. until 1127 and then that family relocated into the interior of Asia. Together with the Tartar, or Black, or Haida monarchy, this family migrated to America where the Potlatch culture then expanded along the west coast.

The black heir presently lives in Skidegate on Haida Gwaii and the Asian heir lives in the Province of Kitsilano. We are entitled to be so recognized by Canada under her constitution.

The time therefore, is at hand and since evil accompanies the good it is urgent.

Recent incidents in Colorado establish that Infinity has the potential to destroy as well as create.

I hate that kind of thing, and put no stock in it. But Psychology Today insists on adding degrees to names. By this time, I think everyone knows that letters after names signify little or nothing beyond testifying that once, in the long forgotten past, one did time in an academic setting. Ouf! It's the rare expert who really knows more than the amateur who has made it his or her business to study the field.

Religion is not a tool to create or find 'Truth'. It fulfills a human need of ritual. The familiarity of a church service makes strangers comfortable in an ever-changing world. Denny's and McDonald's strive to serve food that tastes the same regardless of location. They are popular because they succeed in stopping time. Freezing our world long enough for us to eat dinner.
Everything changes. The rate of change keeps increasing. We seek comfort in familiarity, but what is familiar?