Not Cool. (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/32835393-14A4-40A4-9BF8-5D7E12AA66B4.htm) And it appears as if the Israeli government is ok with it. :nono:

Muck

11-07-2003, 11:56 AM

Also interesting and relevant. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1312&ncid=1312&e=7&u=/ap/20031106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_trapped_village_1)

PhinPhan1227

11-07-2003, 02:00 PM

Israel is certainly far from blameless in this conflict, but it would certainly be nice to hear their side in things like this. If terrorists were using the groves as cover under which they were sneaking into Israeli territory, than I can see the justification. Bottom line in this conflict to me is that the Israeli's have certainly worked harder at the peace process than the Palestinians. And while I certainly object to many of the Israeli's methods, they still aren't the ones who specifically target women and kids.

Muck

11-07-2003, 06:42 PM

Very true. I thought the same thing. And the fact that I got the link from al-Jazeera says something. Not exactly known for their unbiased coverage.

P4E

11-09-2003, 05:31 AM

CW... had you held it to under 14 beers last nite, you'd have realized that your post that formerly occupied this space wasn't a great idea.

By the way... how's your head?:)

Miamian

11-10-2003, 02:23 AM

What? I think you're posting in the wrong thread.

But as it applies to the thread, if there has been any wrongdoing on the part of the army or government it should go through the courts. From published accounts, Israeli courts appear to have been impartial during the conflict.

I really can't believe that the army or government would officially tolerate wanton vandalism by the settlers. It is possible that some officers looked the other way while it was going on. If so, then they should be disciplined. Compensating the farmers, if justifiable, is going to be difficut, given the current state of the Israeli economy.

The other thing is, that as an observant Jew, I am appalled that any rabbi, be it Chief Rabbi or former Chief Rabbi, or recent Yeshiva graduate would sanction theft and vandalism. I would really like to see confirmation of that part of the story.

PhinPhan1227

11-10-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Miamian
What? I think you're posting in the wrong thread.

But as it applies to the thread, if there has been any wrongdoing on the part of the army or government it should go through the courts. From published accounts, Israeli courts appear to have been impartial during the conflict.

I really can't believe that the army or government would officially tolerate wanton vandalism by the settlers. It is possible that some officers looked the other way while it was going on. If so, then they should be disciplined. Compensating the farmers, if justifiable, is going to be difficut, given the current state of the Israeli economy.

The other thing is, that as an observant Jew, I am appalled that any rabbi, be it Chief Rabbi or former Chief Rabbi, or recent Yeshiva graduate would sanction theft and vandalism. I would really like to see confirmation of that part of the story.

I'd say that in any situation where you've got the kind of attrocities which have been committed by both sides(especially by the Palestinians, but also by the Israelis)...you're going to get individuals who take actions that would be inconcievable to someone who has not been through the same thing. Rabbi's are human beings...inflict enough pain on them and they'll sanction just about anything to make that pain go away.

Miamian

11-10-2003, 11:35 PM

I disagree. Human or not, rabbis are held to a higher standard. The Torah states that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People; however, to merit this ultimate honor brings a heavy responsibility as well. The Torah also states that G-d chose the Jews to be "Or La-Olam," a light to the world. Therefore, we cannot allow ourselves to sink to lower levels. Golda Meir once said it herself: that we can forgive the Arabs for killing our children, but we cannot forgive them for making us kill their children.

That is not to say that Israel is not justified in taking certain actions. They're at war and must defend themselves often with extreme measures. An unfortunate reality of war is that innocents often die, as has been the case. However, it's one thing when innocents die by accident and another when they die as targets. When there is evidence that Israeli soldiers committed atrocities, they should be punished. That doesn't include people, even children, being hit by stray fire. For example, an atrocity would occur if Israeli soldiers were to start firing randomly at passers-by. There was also the case of Israeli soldiers who were convicted on theft while on raids in the West Bank. They should be and have been punished just like any other common thief.

But, back to the point, I see no excuse for vandalism and theft. If any rabbi condones or sanctions these actions, then the Rabbinical association should take it up.

PhinPhan1227

11-11-2003, 01:55 PM

You misunderstood me. I'm not excusing the behavior, only pointing out that any person has their limits. Even Rabi will cross the line if pushed far enough. It's one thing to understand a person, another to condone their actions.

Miamian

11-11-2003, 05:15 PM

That's fine. But, if he does cross that line, then he has to do t'shuvah, repentence.

PhinPhan1227

11-12-2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Miamian
That's fine. But, if he does cross that line, then he has to do t'shuvah, repentence.

Of course, we're all responcible for our actions regardless of the provocation. Just as a soldier must face punishment for misdeeds done on the battlefield, so a Rabi must face punishment for misdeeds done in the Temple.

CirclingWagons

11-19-2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Phan4Ever
CW... had you held it to under 14 beers last nite, you'd have realized that your post that formerly occupied this space wasn't a great idea.

By the way... how's your head?:) Hey Phan...can you PM me what I originally said...I honestly have no recollection of it