You have to keep in mind that according to the article TiVo is targeting the series 5 hardware for DIAL, which if performance of Mini is any indication, will run these Flash apps MUCH faster than the current crappy series 4 hardware platform can. So you can't look at it in context of series 4 hardware/experience.

People need to remember that the Premiere platform is 2009 hardware and has needed to be update for a few years now. I honestly don't believe there is much life left in it and don't expect it has the ability to do much more than it already is.

You have to keep in mind that according to the article TiVo is targeting the series 5 hardware for DIAL, which if performance of Mini is any indication, will run these Flash apps MUCH faster than the current crappy series 4 hardware platform can. So you can't look at it in context of series 4 hardware/experience.

I mean, the series 5 maybe COULD run the flash apps faster, but WHY?

Even my PS3 is slower than my Chromecast and I promise you that the new TiVo won't have better hardware than my PS3.

These touchscreen phones we all have now are just so fast to navigate, and we all have them optimized for the apps we use most, why would we possibly want to use a remote control?

It took my daughter about 30 seconds this morning to figure out the Chromecast. She's 2. Now, she already understood YouTube (we use Sesame Street videos for potty training help), so I just put her in front of the TV with the tablet and played the first video for her on the TV. And she, from there, figured out "hit play on the tablet, video plays on the TV." And she was off.

Now, I'm not saying I want my 2 year old to be able to use the PS3 and watch Netflix, but even if I did, there's no way she would figure out "turn on the Ps3, load the netflix app, go to favorites, play the video."

Whereas she surely knows how to launch netflix on my phone and look at the pictures of the videos that are on the home page and hit "play" when she sees Mickey Mouse.

People need to remember that the Premiere platform is 2009 hardware and has needed to be update for a few years now. I honestly don't believe there is much life left in it and don't expect it has the ability to do much more than it already is.

I have to admit, I don't understand TiVo's hardware decisions. If the 2009 hardware is such a huge bottleneck, why wait 4 years for a refresh?

Even the XBox has a faster than every-4-years hardware cycle and it's supposed to be the SAME generation of Xbox!

I am struggling to think of any industry where hardware refreshes are this slow. I mean, I get the regulatory mess TiVo has to slog through... but when the hardware is causing you to not be able to innovate, it's destroying your business model.

Just put together a framework of tuners and cable card slots and periodically pop in new RAM and Proc's. I know differentiation like this might frustrate customers who feel like they are running the "old" model, but when upgrades are very reasonable and all of the money is in subscriptions, why not let the people who want to upgrade every year do it, which floods the market with used boxes for people who don't want to and just want to get in to a TiVo cheap, which should also help your sub-base.

I can only figure it's because of a combination of their small developer group (making testing software a hassle on multiple hardware platforms) and their fear of devaluing lifetime subs (oh noes people would just go to monthly instead?).

There are a lot of people ITT being dismissive of DIAL and Chromecast and what it represents.

This is a 35 dollar piece of hardware that I used about an hour ago to stream HD netflix video to my TV, then within 20 seconds swapped it to playing some free song I had on my Google Music app (I use Amazon for music) and then within 20 seconds have pulled up one of my kids favorite YouTube videos... all from my phone. I paused it, jumped ahead half way, and exited out of it without a hitch.

I got better performance for streaming video playback out of a $35 dongle and my existing smart phone than I can get out of my $200 + sub TiVo box, my $300 PS3 or my 200ish dollar Xbox 360. Not to mention that 2 of those devices have boot-up times longer than the entire time it takes me to find and play a video on the Chromecast.

So, DIAL is going to be growing soon. If Google puts enough of these dongles on TVs and gets enough partners to embed the technology, the client applications will follow.

Now, TiVo could do what DIAL was originally designed for an actually just launch their embedded applications to stream the content... but why? Google has shown that a tiny little OS running nothing more than a glorified Chrome browser can stream HD video and music. Why launch a ridiculous flash application with an awful UI when you can just launch an open source browser in a sandbox? I promise you, Google would happily give TiVo the necessary code to embed this in to the next gen TiVo.

Don't look at what Chromecast does NOW (basically, only stream google content and netflix), look at what it COULD DO if implemented on the scale of AirPlay (HBOGO, watchESPN, Pandora, Amazon Instant Video, Amazon Music, Hulu, Spotify, etc).

And I haven't even touched on the browser window mirroring, which in some business environments is, by itself, a compelling enough reason to own one.

How is it with audio? How do you get the advanced audio codec from Netflix to a receiver?

How is it with audio? How do you get the advanced audio codec from Netflix to a receiver?

I haven't tested it enough to know if it retains AC3, but I use Audio Return Channel via HDMI on my TV for the built in apps. When I connected the Chromecast directly to the TV on another HDMI port the audio comes through the ARC just fine. If your TV doesn't have ARC then it likely has an optical port you can use. Although TVs are hit and miss when it comes to AC3 output. Some do it others convert everything to 2ch PCM. Just depends on the TV.

Even the XBox has a faster than every-4-years hardware cycle and it's supposed to be the SAME generation of Xbox!

I am struggling to think of any industry where hardware refreshes are this slow. I mean, I get the regulatory mess TiVo has to slog through... but when the hardware is causing you to not be able to innovate, it's destroying your business model.

I think you're mistaken. The Xbox 360 was released towards the end of 2005. That's nearly eight years. The PS3 was released near the end of 2006. That's nearly seven years.

If you're going to count all of the different form factors, since the processors stayed the same, then you should also include the different varieties of Series 4 TiVos that have come out.

I tried it out and with it connected to my TV using ARC I only get stereo sound, but with it connected directly to the receiver I get 5.1, so it's capable of 5.1. Unfortunately I don't have a free port on my receiver at the moment so I have to leave it connected to the TV. Although I've been thinking about getting a new receiver anyway so this might push me over the edge. (Funny how a $11* purchase can turn into a $400 upgrade )

I have to admit the Chromecast is very convenient for playing Netflix. The app is a lot easier to navigate then anything on the TV because you can flick around a lot quicker with your finger then you can navigate one selection at a time with a remote. And since it's not actually streaming from the iPad the quality is the same as you'd get from a native app running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc...

Also I can now see how TiVo might add something like this to the next gen hardware. It's a pretty simple protocol. Basically the app instructs the device (i.e. TiVo, Chromecast, etc...) to launch the Netflix app and then sends a few basic commands to start the proper video and then allow basic control like pause, seek, etc.... Pretty much any device with a Netflix app could support this type of functionality.

If TiVo does add it then I think between that and the ability to actually search for Netflix shows/movies in the TiVo UI they would have a pretty badass implimentation. Provided of course the Netflix app doesn't run like a dog on the new hardware like it does on the current hardware.

In fact part of this already exists in the TiVo app. They show programs available in Netflix and Hulu in their iOS app with options to play those programs automatically by launching their respective apps. They could easily add an option to make those launch the apps on the TiVo itself instead. They might not even need DIAL. They have interfaces for all this stuff in their current MindRPC protocol already. Hmmmm

If you're going to count all of the different form factors, since the processors stayed the same, then you should also include the different varieties of Series 4 TiVos that have come out.

I was, of course, counting Xbox revisions, which had hardware changes. But fair enough, they didn't boost the proc in any of those... they just made mobo, memory and PSU changes. They did improve hardware performance in other ways though. Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere. No one is arguing if the PS4 is faster than the PS3.

I mean, you took the one that was "EVEN THESE GUYS DO IT" and went "well, kinda, sorta, they are almost as bad as TiVo." Which is not really helping the core thesis... which is that there is no excuse for this hardware release cycle.

I have to admit the Chromecast is very convenient for playing Netflix. The app is a lot easier to navigate then anything on the TV because you can flick around a lot quicker with your finger then you can navigate one selection at a time with a remote. And since it's not actually streaming from the iPad the quality is the same as you'd get from a native app running on a Roku, AppleTV, etc...

Also I can now see how TiVo might add something like this to the next gen hardware. It's a pretty simple protocol. Basically the app instructs the device (i.e. TiVo, Chromecast, etc...) to launch the Netflix app and then sends a few basic commands to start the proper video and then allow basic control like pause, seek, etc.... Pretty much any device with a Netflix app could support this type of functionality.

If TiVo does add it then I think between that and the ability to actually search for Netflix shows/movies in the TiVo UI they would have a pretty badass implimentation. Provided of course the Netflix app doesn't run like a dog on the new hardware like it does on the current hardware.

In fact part of this already exists in the TiVo app. They show programs available in Netflix and Hulu in their iOS app with options to play those programs automatically by launching their respective apps. They could easily add an option to make those launch the apps on the TiVo itself instead. They might not even need DIAL. They have interfaces for all this stuff in their current MindRPC protocol already. Hmmmm

If you don't use DIAL, it defeats the point of having an open protocol. I don't want to have to launch a TiVo app to do this. I want to do it from inside of netflix.

Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere.

Agreed. A large part of their mistake came from deciding to have the OS be so internet-centric, getting dynamic content (and advertising ) on-the-fly from the cloud. Not to mention the pathetic performance of Adobe AIR and Flash on these boxes. Not to mention how long it took them to activate the second core.

I've all but decided that my TiVo Premiere (2-tuner, with 2TB HDD) will be the last TiVo hardware I ever buy. I was happy when the TiVo Stream came out (their iPad app was the last good thing to come out from this company, and I'm pretty certain they'd outsourced it.) Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.

I do think TiVo still has the best DVR platform, in terms of overall user friendliness, stability and reliability, but their lead is fading fast. More importantly, I am not watching enough broadcast TV these days to counterbalance my constant disappointment with their innovation and tech initiatives. Every thing they've done beyond simple DVR'ing (specifically with relation to "one box" web video handling) had been a tremendous DUD. And these days, those are the areas that are actually important to most tech-savvy audiences!

Video podcasts, internet webisodes, streaming, flinging and casting, downloads on demand, and all that jazz -- that's what I'm interested in. And TiVo has proven to be the worst at all of it.

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I was, of course, counting Xbox revisions, which had hardware changes. But fair enough, they didn't boost the proc in any of those... they just made mobo, memory and PSU changes. They did improve hardware performance in other ways though. Which you'd struggle to argue that TiVo has done in any of the Series 4 tivos. And when your S4 comes out and people are arguing if it's even faster than the S3, then you've messed up somewhere. No one is arguing if the PS4 is faster than the PS3.

I mean, you took the one that was "EVEN THESE GUYS DO IT" and went "well, kinda, sorta, they are almost as bad as TiVo." Which is not really helping the core thesis... which is that there is no excuse for this hardware release cycle.

They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.

And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.

I've all but decided that my TiVo Premiere (2-tuner, with 2TB HDD) will be the last TiVo hardware I ever buy. I was happy when the TiVo Stream came out (their iPad app was the last good thing to come out from this company, and I'm pretty certain they'd outsourced it.) Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.

If the HDUI runs as well on the next gen hardware as it does on the Mini, and it should, then I think TiVo will really be back in the game. Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.

There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.

They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.

And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.

Yeah, the HDUI has gotten a tiny bit faster (maybe that's the 2nd core) but it's still got lag and is annoying to use. And BTW, it is *still* not complete! What a joke.

Why would the HDUI slow down transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo? You'd think that was all handled underneath that particular UI layer.

They've made some horrible decisions with this.

I think I'm going to switch back to the SD UI tonight. And use the iPad app for as much as control as possible. After what I've been through, it'll probably feel like my TiVo got an upgrade of greased lightning.

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If the HDUI runs as well on the next gen hardware as it does on the Mini, and it should, then I think TiVo will really be back in the game. Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.

There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.

Dan

I wonder if they would bother to remove it though since based off the rumors so far there is no mention of a 2 tuner series 5.

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Agreed. A large part of their mistake came from deciding to have the OS be so internet-centric, getting dynamic content (and advertising ) on-the-fly from the cloud. Not to mention the pathetic performance of Adobe AIR and Flash on these boxes. Not to mention how long it took them to activate the second core....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan203

...And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.

In hindsight it is fairly clear what TiVo should have done. The Premiere should have been released in the fall of 2009 with only the SDUI and billed as a performance upgrade to the TiVo HD. They then should have continued to worked on the HDUI until it was functional and they were ready to release a 4 tuner model (Fall of 2011?) and done a hardware refresh at the same time to something that met flash specs.

There is a pretty reliable rumor going around that dynamic tuner allocation is being beta tested right now and should come out this fall. I wonder if they'll remove the 4 tuner limitation on the Mini when that hits? Will be an interesting development if it does.

My hunch is that it'll come out and work great with 4-tuner Premieres only.
And true to form they will disappoint (yet again) by not making it available to 2-tuner Premieres. After all, they never said the Mini would work with those models, why bother backtracking and changing that caveat? They'd rather folks buy new hardware anyway.

That particular announcement is what I am hinging my own TiVo future on. I'd love a Mini for my office. And I refuse to replace my 2-Tuner Premiere with a 4-Tuner Premiere just for that. I never have tuner conflicts, I don't even record that much content these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan203

Although they need to work out app deals with content providers like HBOGo and VUDU if they want to make good on that whole "one box" thing. Throwing in a DLNA client wouldn't hurt either.

I'll believe it when I see it. Not only would these apps be welcome, but TiVo needs to figure out how to make the user experience pleasant. What they have now is anything but.

Chromecast (DIAL) support would be a nice thing to see, too. And wouldn't need any "front-facing" UI from TiVo. Their current "Flingo" implementation is a sad joke, when compared to what we're already seeing from the $35 Chromecast.

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Most of the poor user experience with the S4 stems from the abysmally slow CPU. I'm really hoping that the souped up hardware in the next gen units will get rid of that problem. I don't know if you've ever used a Mini but the UI experience on it is soooooooo much better. I actually considered using one as a front end for my Elite at one point, unfortunately they don't have access to ToDo or the SPM so it wouldn't really work.

I have high hopes for the next gen TiVos. I really hope they don't disappoint me.

Their announcement that the TiVo Mini would only work on 4-tuner Premieres (because they couldn't figure out dynamic tuner allocation) was the straw that broke this camel's back.
....Video podcasts, internet webisodes, streaming, flinging and casting, downloads on demand, and all that jazz -- that's what I'm interested in. And TiVo has proven to be the worst at all of it.

Wait, I thought the 4 tuner premiere thing was only an "at launch time" thing? Did they say that officially that's what will EVER be supported?

Also, hmm, that's funny, since the things you're interested in seem to be exactly what most other people AREN'T interested in regarding a DVR.. they just want it to record their TV shows reliably. And 'downloads on demand' -- what specifically do you mean? There's Amazon for that.

I actually think it does a pretty good job for video podcasts, I still have a bunch of CNET podcasts subscribed to on my Tivos (have to nuke a bunch of the auto downloads on one tivo & consolidate them), though I end up *watching* them mostly on my iPad mini, since I can watch at 2x.. But I still download them on the Tivo so far.

They release an updated version with 4 tuners instead of 2, same CPU but pretty much everything else is different. Seems to be about equivalent to XBox revisions.

And when running the old UI the S4 is significantly faster then the S3. Also transfers between TiVos and TiVoToGo are significantly faster. The bottle neck in the S4 platform is the HDUI. If you compare apples to apples then the S4 is a major improvement over the S3.

Your core point is valid, but you're still whiffing on arguing against my thesis. Which means either you don't get it, or you're nitpicking minor details that are totally irrelevant.

The Xbox 360, today, right now, is plenty fast enough for everything the Xbox does. The Premiere was not fast enough ON RELEASE to do what it was designed to do. Period. The End. Improvements tot he Xbox left us with a platform that was more efficient, cheaper and added features. Improvements to the Premier platform left us with a platform that is still too slow, still lacks innovation and still barely outperforms the previous generation of hardware.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if the old UI is faster on the new TiVo because I didn't buy the old UI, I bought the new UI. What matters to users is "is the actual experience of using the device improved." The answer is "meh, not really."

If you're comparing apples to apples, where apples are the actual things you actually consume and not theoretical things you might theoretically consume if you have bad taste and hate innovation, then the Premiere is maybe equally as fast as the S3. Probably. But meanwhile, in the real world, with real people who actually use the S3 and the premier, it's not faster.

I mean, you're literally talking to someone who has an original LED $800 S3 with the THX certification and 2 cable cards in his bedroom and a Premiere in his TV room. I switch back and forth between the two daily. I am WELL aware of the performance differences between the two. There is no performance incentive to upgrade from the S3 to a Premier. The only reason I've considered upgrading the S3 is for streaming and so I can save $3 a month on the cable card i could return.

If you have a point to make, make it. Otherwise, just go "Yes, Grak, I agree, the premiere was a poor hardware refresh and they should have done more with it" and I can nod and stop having to write 10 paragraph posts to respond to you.

In hindsight it is fairly clear what TiVo should have done. The Premiere should have been released in the fall of 2009 with only the SDUI and billed as a performance upgrade to the TiVo HD. They then should have continued to worked on the HDUI until it was functional and they were ready to release a 4 tuner model (Fall of 2011?) and done a hardware refresh at the same time to something that met flash specs.

Woulda Coulda Shoulda

Couldn't agree more.

I also think they blew it with the Flash UI. It was just a poor choice of platform. But I doubt they reboot the whole UI again 4 years later unless they realized it as soon as they released it and were already working on a new platform in Java or something.

Wait, I thought the 4 tuner premiere thing was only an "at launch time" thing? Did they say that officially that's what will EVER be supported?

Also, hmm, that's funny, since the things you're interested in seem to be exactly what most other people AREN'T interested in regarding a DVR.. they just want it to record their TV shows reliably. And 'downloads on demand' -- what specifically do you mean? There's Amazon for that.

I actually think it does a pretty good job for video podcasts, I still have a bunch of CNET podcasts subscribed to on my Tivos (have to nuke a bunch of the auto downloads on one tivo & consolidate them), though I end up *watching* them mostly on my iPad mini, since I can watch at 2x.. But I still download them on the Tivo so far.

I'm not going to stop using TiVos for cable TV because I am mad about their lack of DIAL support or the bad Netflix app. There is no competitor for them in the DVR market. What they do there, they do amazing and better than anyone else to the point where my choice of cable TV service is dictated by their TiVo support.

What TiVo needs to be afraid of is how much of my regular TV watching is being replaced by internet media of some kind. If they don't keep up with that and make sure that TiVo remains the hub for my other media consumption, they are going to lose Input1 on my TV. And if you lose Input1 on my TV, you start looking more and more replaceable.

Every time I hit the input button on my TV and switch to my Chromecast or PS3 to watch a show, that should cause a TiVo employee to scream in rage at their failures. They should strive to prevent that from ever happening.

edit: Dynamic Tuner Allocation is, more and more, looking like a feature that is never happening. If the mini isn't selling, they aren't going to devote developer resources to improving it.

I think I'm going to switch back to the SD UI tonight. And use the iPad app for as much as control as possible. After what I've been through, it'll probably feel like my TiVo got an upgrade of greased lightning.

Yep. Precisely this happened. My TiVo feels sooooooo fast now. The menus are big, noatalgic, cartoony and ugly... but boy, is the overall UI so much more RESPONSIVE!

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Your core point is valid, but you're still whiffing on arguing against my thesis. Which means either you don't get it, or you're nitpicking minor details that are totally irrelevant.

The Xbox 360, today, right now, is plenty fast enough for everything the Xbox does. The Premiere was not fast enough ON RELEASE to do what it was designed to do. Period. The End. Improvements tot he Xbox left us with a platform that was more efficient, cheaper and added features. Improvements to the Premier platform left us with a platform that is still too slow, still lacks innovation and still barely outperforms the previous generation of hardware.

It doesn't matter in the slightest if the old UI is faster on the new TiVo because I didn't buy the old UI, I bought the new UI. What matters to users is "is the actual experience of using the device improved." The answer is "meh, not really."

If you're comparing apples to apples, where apples are the actual things you actually consume and not theoretical things you might theoretically consume if you have bad taste and hate innovation, then the Premiere is maybe equally as fast as the S3. Probably. But meanwhile, in the real world, with real people who actually use the S3 and the premier, it's not faster.

I mean, you're literally talking to someone who has an original LED $800 S3 with the THX certification and 2 cable cards in his bedroom and a Premiere in his TV room. I switch back and forth between the two daily. I am WELL aware of the performance differences between the two. There is no performance incentive to upgrade from the S3 to a Premier. The only reason I've considered upgrading the S3 is for streaming and so I can save $3 a month on the cable card i could return.

If you have a point to make, make it. Otherwise, just go "Yes, Grak, I agree, the premiere was a poor hardware refresh and they should have done more with it" and I can nod and stop having to write 10 paragraph posts to respond to you.

I wasn't trying to argue that the Premiere is a good box. I was simply pointing out that the refresh of the XBox platform was minor, and did not include a CPU upgrade either, so it was a poor comparison. If anything the 4 tuner refresh of the Premiere was a bigger hardware change. But really this is an apples to oranges comparison so it's irrelevant.

I completely agree that the Premiere is too slow. I constantly say that on here. Until about 6 months ago I was still using the SDUI on my Premiere because the HDUI is so slow. The only reason I switched is because the changes to the To Do List and SPM made them so much easier to use. If it weren't for that I'd still be using the SDUI.

I actually wonder if the hardware was designed before they decided to do the UI in Flash. Because if the original intent was to stick with the old UI then the Premiere would have been a massive improvement over the S3. If the HDUI didn't exist the Premiere would be heralded as the best TiVo to date. The only thing that makes it a flop is that the HDUI is so freaking slow. (and the apps are slow too)

That being said if you've ever used a Mini you now how nice the HDUI is to use when it's paired with proper hardware. It's fast and effortless on the Mini. Which is why I'm so anxiously awaiting the next gen boxes. If they can run the HDUI as fast as the Mini then we should finally get to see the full potential of the HDUI. (would be nice if they finished all the screens too)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grakthis

edit: Dynamic Tuner Allocation is, more and more, looking like a feature that is never happening. If the mini isn't selling, they aren't going to devote developer resources to improving it.

According to Dave Zatz they're beta testing dynamic tuner allocation right now. With the Mini you have to remember that their main target is not consumers but their cable partners. They've got commitments there beyond just pleasing the few thousand people who bought these at retail.

That being said if you've ever used a Mini you now how nice the HDUI is to use when it's paired with proper hardware. It's fast and effortless on the Mini. Which is why I'm so anxiously awaiting the next gen boxes. If they can run the HDUI as fast as the Mini then we should finally get to see the full potential of the HDUI. (would be nice if they finished all the screens too)

And if the Mini worked with a two-tuner Premiere, even just to watch already-recorded shows in the NP List (as I never watch live TV) then I'd buy two of them. If it doesn't, I won't be upgrading to a four-tuner Premiere to make up for TiVo's incompetence -- this box will be my last.

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And if the Mini worked with a two-tuner Premiere, even just to watch already-recorded shows in the NP List (as I never watch live TV) then I'd buy two of them. If it doesn't, I won't be upgrading to a four-tuner Premiere to make up for TiVo's incompetence -- this box will be my last.

You can watch already recorded shows on a 2 tuner box from a Mini, I do it all the time. However it has to be paired to a 4 tuner box, at least for the time being. Basically the Mini is a reflection of the 4 tuner box it's paired to so when you select My Shows it shows the list on the 4 tuner box. But down at the bottom is a list of all the other TiVos on your network, including 2 tuner boxes, that you can select and play shows from just like you can from another TiVo.

I'm not sure if the release of DTA is going to remove the 4 tuner as host restriction or not. We'll have to wait and see what they do there.

Sure, but I have only one TiVo in my home, a 2-Tuner Premiere. I have no need for a 4-Tuner Premiere as I don't get any recording conflicts with the box I already own.

Is the 4-Tuner Premiere needed for set up of a Mini only? I'm guessing once that 4-Tuner Premiere is removed, at least after awhile, the Mini would stop working. If not, I'd borrow someone's for the setup and then use it with my 2-Tuner Premiere for the rest of its days. I have a feeling that won't pan out, though.

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