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Changes in karate basics

Having read Christopher Clarkes's "Ramblings from a ten foot hut" (Iain, good suggestion), I was interested to read that Hangetsu was an invention of Funakoshi to combine Seisan and Sanchin. Specifically I found it interesting that the theory is that Hangetsu-dachi was an attempt to make a stance that enompasses the lessons of Sanchin, but with a longer, more shotokan-esque "feel" to it.

Having come from a shotokan background and now studying Goju-Ryu, I'm intrigued by how many things that were presented as sacrosant and historic are actually quite distinct to shotokan, quite "recent" and can be traced either to the advance of competition or to the move of karate to Japan. For example, I look at how shotokan kokutsu-dachi isn't in Goju-Ryu, where Goju-Rye tends to have either kokutsu-dachi as zenkutsu-dachi with the head turned, or uses niki-ashi-dachi instead.

I wanted to ask 1) is shotokan kokutsu-dachi another example of something where the original stance (Niko-ashi-dachi?) was lengthened to make it more shotokan, and 2) are there any other good examples of changes and new techniques where the point of change can be pinned down?

I Wonder if maybe the fact that Funakoshi studdied With Azato primarily (according to some Sources Azato was Funakoshi`s main teacher) can account for the fact of some of Shotokan`s uniqueness in techniques. Little is known about Azato`s Karate and there is as far as I know no Direct lineage from him except Funakoshi while many others studdied With Itosu instead? (I am no Karate historian by the way so feel free to ignore the post:-) )

Having read Christopher Clarkes's "Ramblings from a ten foot hut" (Iain, good suggestion), I was interested to read that Hangetsu was an invention of Funakoshi to combine Seisan and Sanchin. Specifically I found it interesting that the theory is that Hangetsu-dachi was an attempt to make a stance that enompasses the lessons of Sanchin, but with a longer, more shotokan-esque "feel" to it.

I think this theory is wrong. Funakoshi did not invent Hangetsu by combing Seisan and Sanchin. He learned Seisan/Seshan/Seishan either directly from Matsumura or from his teacher Asato. Itosu did not teach Seisan/Seshan/Seishan so he couln't be his source. According to Kyan the Seisan he learned was directly from Matsumura. So when you compare the Seisan/Seshan/Seishan of Shorin Ryu Seibukan, Isshin Ryu (those are based on the Kyan form) with Funakoshis version you definitely must recognize similarities.

rafanapa wrote:

Having come from a shotokan background and now studying Goju-Ryu, I'm intrigued by how many things that were presented as sacrosant and historic are actually quite distinct to shotokan, quite "recent" and can be traced either to the advance of competition or to the move of karate to Japan. For example, I look at how shotokan kokutsu-dachi isn't in Goju-Ryu, where Goju-Rye tends to have either kokutsu-dachi as zenkutsu-dachi with the head turned, or uses niki-ashi-dachi instead.

Kokutsu Dachi simply means "stance were a leg is bend backwards". So every position were your bodyweight is pulling away from the opponent is a valid Kokutsu Dachi. Some prefer a front stance showing to the opposite direction others prefer to face the opponent leaning backwards in a cat stance or even more back into a Shotokan Kokutsu Dachi.

rafanapa wrote:

I wanted to ask 1) is shotokan kokutsu-dachi another example of something where the original stance (Niko-ashi-dachi?) was lengthened to make it more shotokan, and 2) are there any other good examples of changes and new techniques where the point of change can be pinned down?

1.) I don't think so. When you look at the drawings of Funakoshis first book (published in 1922) there you see him in a Shotokan like Kokutsu Dachi (granted it was not as deep as they tend to be nowadays)

2.) The Shotokan Yoko Geri is such a change. Funakoshi performs Yoko Geri as a Mae Geri to the side in his earlier published books. It was perhaps Funakoshis third son Gigo (Yoshitaka) who came up with the new Yoko Geri.

To add to ShotoKan/Kai changes to basics (Kihon) Ohtsuka Sensei changed the format of many of the same Kata if you notice many of the Pinan/Heian forms the arms are held at Jodan Shuto Uke as opposed to Chudan/Gedan Shoto Uke in many cases, this also filters out to Kushanku/Kanku Dai, Bassai and others. The reason for the changes, I don't know but I remember reading that it was for training purposes etc. only

"Itosu did not teach Seisan/Seshan/Seishan so he couln't be his source."

Itosu very much did. In fact there is an Itosu no Seisan that is part of Chibana Sensei's "extras" kata curriculum and is still taught to this day by those of Chibana Sensei's lineage. I enjoy it very much.

That's not to say that your original point is not valid. You are very likely 100% on the mark. Itosu was not Funakoshi's main teacher. My understanding is that other than the time when he was young, he was never really a part of Itosu's work. I could be very wrong, and I do not recall where I read it, but Funakoshi wasn't one Itosu's teaching deciples, spreading the new Karate as PE curriculum.

IMO, the greatest "changes" is what I would call Shotokan Compression. BT's example is a good one. Taking half a dozen techniques that all look like "shuto uke" and make them a single tecnique. But you can see it with stances as well. Taking a kata that has three or four stances and compressinng it down to two, etc. That is the greatest change. I have no idea why these things were done, but that has been my greatest joy over the last year...seeing those techniques that were "compressed out". Learning them. Understanding them.

I have never ever heard of an Itosu no Seisan. (And even if, there are Kata names floating around of Kata that do not exist e.g. Matsumura Chinto or Matsumura Rohai). Lets take a look at lineages tracing back to Chibana and lets have a look at their Kata curriculums.

Miyahira Katsuya (Shidokan) - no Seisan
Nakazato Shugoro (Shorinkan) - no Seisan
Higa Yuchoku (Kyudokan) - has Seisan which he perhaps learned from Shinzato Jinan of Goju Ryu
Onaga Yoshimitsu (Shinjinbukan) a student of Higa - no Seisan (I wonder why when his teacher taught a version of Seisan)

That you put "Itosu no Seisan" into Chibanas "Extras" indicates that he could have picked it up elsewhere. As far as I know is Seisan not a Kata in Chibanas curriculum. Could I ask you for your source of the claim that Seisan is an extra Kata taught by Chibana? That would be great.

Nakasone and Mabuni don't list the Seisan as one of Itosus Kata. The Shito Ryu version of Seisan is the Goju Ryu version.

I have just read Gichin Funakoshi's 'Tote Jitsu' book, which includes photographs of Funakoshi himself performing moves from kata from the early 1920's . His stances are high and short on the whole and look very similar/identical to the likes of Mabuni, Chibana and Motobu in their execution, all of whom studied under Itosu. Interestingly these photographs are of Funakoshi when he was still in very good physical condition and could not be said to be high just because he was old. In fact, the photographs taken over a decade later show Funakoshi in slightly deeper and longer stances, although they are still higher than what came to be known as 'Shotokan' during the post-war mass exportation.

In summary, the early 1920's photographs of Funakoshi would be more representative of what he was taught by Azato and Itosu in the way that it is closer chronologically to when he trained under these masters. Whether the later developments were due to trying to make it more 'gymnastic' and 'athletic' and/or distinct from what other teachers were doing so as to promote their style as different/better, is open for debate. Many Shotokan scholars actually credit Yoshitaka Funakoshi (Gichin's son) with making the stances of Shotokan deeper and longer. Interestingly, Yoshitaka suffered from ill health and supposedly used his Karate to make himself physically stronger. Perhaps this was why he dropped and lengthened the stances of Shotokan?

What is of little doubt for me, is that Azato had little to do with the deeper and longer stances that later became representative of Shotokan Karate.