I have an article up on an ezine right now which involves cooking. Predictably, someone assumed I was a girl because of this.

Bastards.

This picture might or might not summarize the problem:

awerbos wrote:

All arts can be manly, it just depends on how you approach them.

For example, if you called the prime warden of the worshipful company of broderers a woman, he'd likely have you executed and then have sex with one of his dozen mistresses.

That could be beneficial... at least if people behave that way, the threat of violence could, via conditioning, help to dissolve gender/sex stereotyping. And the threat of sex... well, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a dozen mistresses; I suppose since it's thought of as a "masculine" state of being, over time it could also help to abolish the gendered mindset when presented along with artistic ("feminine"?) activities.

I suppose I should have mentioned in my article how I had sex with one of my mistresses while I was waiting for the water to boil._________________' What I'm thinking in my head is, 'Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I f---ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective'.

That could be beneficial... at least if people behave that way, the threat of violence could, via conditioning, help to dissolve gender/sex stereotyping. And the threat of sex... well, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a dozen mistresses; I suppose since it's thought of as a "masculine" state of being, over time it could also help to abolish the gendered mindset when presented along with artistic ("feminine"?) activities.

I know what you're trying to say. And while you're correct to identify the problem, you're falling into the trap that all reactionary minds fall into: a belief that statistical knowledge is no knowledge at all.

epb wrote:

That could be beneficial... at least if people behave that way, the threat of violence could, via conditioning, help to dissolve gender/sex stereotyping. And the threat of sex... well, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a dozen mistresses; I suppose since it's thought of as a "masculine" state of being, over time it could also help to abolish the gendered mindset when presented along with artistic ("feminine"?) activities.

But, right, I think the drawing on the blackboard is supposed to be basically equivalent to your graph.

awerbos wrote:

I know what you're trying to say. And while you're correct to identify the problem, you're falling into the trap that all reactionary minds fall into: a belief that statistical knowledge is no knowledge at all.

Actually, I'm not a big fan of discounting valid statistics. Although, like any reasonable person, I think that misapplying or misinterpreting statistics or data can be problematic.

I didn't intend the height pic to be especially representative of the entire problem. My main complaint is, very generally, that many people feel like sex and gender should be linked. And that some company makes a Michael Jackson memorial iPhone case.

awerbos wrote:

epb wrote:

That could be beneficial... at least if people behave that way, the threat of violence could, via conditioning, help to dissolve gender/sex stereotyping. And the threat of sex... well, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a dozen mistresses; I suppose since it's thought of as a "masculine" state of being, over time it could also help to abolish the gendered mindset when presented along with artistic ("feminine"?) activities.

I cannot identify a cogent or non-absurd thought in this paragraph.

I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic here... Basically, the threat of death usually makes people less likely to do things. Also, seeing traditionally masculine and feminine behavior in the same individual might start to teach people that that kind of thing is ok/normal.

Actually, I'm not a big fan of discounting valid statistics. Although, like any reasonable person, I think that misapplying or misinterpreting statistics or data can be problematic.

I didn't intend the height pic to be especially representative of the entire problem. My main complaint is, very generally, that many people feel like sex and gender should be linked. And that some company makes a Michael Jackson memorial iPhone case.

You're going to need to define "sex" and "gender" before we continue any further along this line.

Also, your graph is not even close to the same thing. It oversimplified, which is a mortal sin when dealing with issues that are already subject to that tendency.

epb wrote:

I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic here... Basically, the threat of death usually makes people less likely to do things. Also, seeing traditionally masculine and feminine behavior in the same individual might start to teach people that that kind of thing is ok/normal.

I'm never sarcastically mean. How is that example (killing and promiscuous sex) an example of mixing traditionally masculine behavior? Which of those is traditionally feminine?

You missed the point entirely; my original claim was that crafts are gender neutral, it's the way you go about it that defines gender. And this is the correct viewpoint; a viciously violent and promiscuous broderer would not have problems cultivating a masculine image.

My main complaint is, very generally, that many people feel like sex and gender should be linked.

Do you mean sex like fucking? Because there seems to be some influence of gender on sex and sex on gender. At least in my experience.

We're all having a heated discussion... what exactly do you mean? That men and women are precisely the same, therefore any combination of men and women having sex are equal or valid? Whatever that means? What does that mean?

I did use both meanings at different points, though, so perhaps it was ambiguous.

At the risk of being condescending or pedantic (apologies in advance), I guess I'll clarify. "Sex" refers to the physical or biological state, i.e., penis vs. vagina, male vs. female, XY vs. XX. "Gender" refers to the set of characteristics that, for a particular culture, comprise what we call "masculinity" and "femininity." For example, traits like being strong and liking football are associated with a masculine gender identity; tendencies like wearing skirts and using make-up are associated with a female gender identity. Essentially, gender is what identifies person as masculine or feminine aside from the fundamental biological sex categories of male and female. (This isn't to say that some aspects of gender aren't biological in origin, though.) Sex (not the fucking kind) and gender are causally independent of sexual orientation. Gender and sexual orientation exist along a continuum. Sex is usually discrete, but not completely; there can certainly be chromosomal or physical exceptions to 'male' and 'female' since there are intersexed babies, sex change operations, and the like.