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If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?

Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.

Ron

Yes it is body mechanics but the body can't do anything without the mind telling it what to do, the mind leading the body. The mental gymnastics are to let the unconscious part of your mind coordinate the body systems, lead the body. A lot of limitations are put on the body when the conscious mind coordinates body activity.

"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."

We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.

So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.

"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."

We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.

So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.

You've basically just finished telling me that none of what I've written and none of the questions I've asked matter enough even to warrant a response, simply because I haven't been training as long as you have. However good your intentions are, it's hard to see that as anything but insulting and evasive.

If you'd like to continue our conversation courteously, you can begin by trying to show me where you find the nails that need your hammer. I'll listen.

But if, as you seem to be suggesting, my words are not worthy of your attention, please go back to ignoring them.

Matthew:

If I really felt the way you mistranslated what I had said, I would not have invited you to stop by and train. Your questions are valid, but your seeming unwillingness to keep open to the perspectives of others who have been down similar paths is problematic. In summary, hammers do not require nails in order to be useful tools.

If I really felt the way you mistranslated what I had said, I would not have invited you to stop by and train. Your questions are valid, but your seeming unwillingness to keep open to the perspectives of others who have been down similar paths is problematic. In summary, hammers do not require nails in order to be useful tools.

Offer still stands.

Marc Abrams

Thank you, Marc. I genuinely do appreciate the offer to train, and I will stop by if I am ever in NY. I like to think that I am open to the perspectives of others--but I think it would kill the conversation if I left those perspective unchallenged.

Thank you, Marc. I genuinely do appreciate the offer to train, and I will stop by if I am ever in NY. I like to think that I am open to the perspectives of others--but I think it would kill the conversation if I left those perspective unchallenged.

You make a fair point about the hammer.

Matthew:

I am not asking you to not leave those perspectives unchallenged. Many of us who came to the Aiki Expo came to challenge what we experienced and left with a painful awareness as to things way beyond what we thought we knew. That same process is alive and well with me in my continued training with Imaizumi Sensei, Ushiro Sensei and Dan Harden. As much as I would have liked to have disproved much of what I have experienced and gone through, I am left with an awareness as to how much more there is to discover. Ushiro Sensei, in his profound book "Ki and Karate", points out that the major impediment in what we can learn is what we think that we know. I have come to the point where I don't have to possess a complete paradigm of understanding for what I am experiencing to recognize that with patience and hard practice, I will gain a much better understanding of things that I am currently experiencing. I think that many of the more seasoned people here have been trying to help you to recognize this arena.

"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."

We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.

So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.

Ron

OK, so the term ki/qi is just a label that represents a part of a process that leads to a specific physical result initiated by mind? If so, it appears to me to be a very appropriate transition or bridge from mental to physical

I am not asking you to not leave those perspectives unchallenged. Many of us who came to the Aiki Expo came to challenge what we experienced and left with a painful awareness as to things way beyond what we thought we knew. That same process is alive and well with me in my continued training with Imaizumi Sensei, Ushiro Sensei and Dan Harden. As much as I would have liked to have disproved much of what I have experienced and gone through, I am left with an awareness as to how much more there is to discover. Ushiro Sensei, in his profound book "Ki and Karate", points out that the major impediment in what we can learn is what we think that we know. I have come to the point where I don't have to possess a complete paradigm of understanding for what I am experiencing to recognize that with patience and hard practice, I will gain a much better understanding of things that I am currently experiencing. I think that many of the more seasoned people here have been trying to help you to recognize this arena.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Matthew, Marc is a very eloquent guy and very direct at the same time, and he knows what he is talking about (he is also a little goofy, but we won't go into that at this time ) the point is (and this is not negative in any way) is that you are young and have a lot of opportunities ahead of you to grow and learn - do not shut off potential avenues of knowledge by discounting things at this early age simply because you do not understand exactly what is going on - I did that many years ago and essentially found out out later that I wasted 35 years of opportunity because I thought I had the right answer at that time. Things change and you change - get out and explore more if this is what you are interested in - IMO, if you maintain your current position on aspects of ki, you will not be in Aikido, or any internal art much past a few years from now.

Conscious processes are slower than unconscious ones due to the increase amount of neural activity required for conscious thought to action.

"Reflexes require a minimum of two neurons, an sensory neuron (input) and a motor neuron (output) (see Figure 1) The sensory neuron (such as a pain receptor in the skin) detects the stimuli and sends a signal towards the CNS. This sensory neuron synapses with a motor neuron which innervates the effector tissue (such as skeletal muscle to pull away from the painful stimuli). This type of reflex is the "withdrawal" reflex and is monosynaptic, meaning only one synapse has to be crossed between the sensory neuron and the motor neuron. It is the simplest reflex arc and the integration center is the synapse itself. Polysynaptic reflexes are more complex and more common. They involve interneurons which are found in the CNS. More complex reflexes may have their integration center in the spinal cord, in the brainstem, or in the cerebrum where conscious thoughts are initiated.

Many people conider only the simplest types of responses as "reflexes", those that are always identical and do not allow conscious actions. We must not confuse these with "reactions", which are different from reflexes in that they are voluntary responses to a stimulus from the environment. For example, while the body has various subconscious physiological responses to mitigate cold, as humans we can simply choose to put on more clothes. This is a conscious order made by the cerebrum, not an involuntary response to a stimulus. This is a very complex response involving millions of neurons and some time to process the voluntary response. In contrast, spinal reflexes occur much faster, not only because they involve fewer neurons, but also becuase the electrical signal does not have to travel to the brain and back. Spinal reflexes only travel to the spinal cord and back which is a much shorter distance. Because of this and the complexity of conscious reactions, they take more time to complete than a reflex. On average, humans have a reaction time of 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus (2). Reaction times vary from individual to individual. Because of the higher degree of neural processing, reaction times can be influenced by a variety of factors. Reaction times can decrease with practice, as often times athletes have faster reaction times than non-athletes. Sleepiness, emotional distress, or consumption of alcohol can also impact reaction time."

OK, so the term ki/qi is just a label that represents a part of a process that leads to a specific physical result initiated by mind?

The unified mind/body doesn't require conscious thought to operate. They aren't standing side by side with the mind leading the body in any conscious way. Mind/body is an integrated, single thing. And while the word "ki" is a label it's also the thing itself. We all have minds, we all have bodies. But without having mind and body coordinated ki is not manifest.

Conscious processes are slower than unconscious ones due to the increase amount of neural activity required for conscious thought to action.

"Reflexes require a minimum of two neurons, an sensory neuron (input) and a motor neuron (output) (see Figure 1) The sensory neuron (such as a pain receptor in the skin) detects the stimuli and sends a signal towards the CNS. This sensory neuron synapses with a motor neuron which innervates the effector tissue (such as skeletal muscle to pull away from the painful stimuli). This type of reflex is the "withdrawal" reflex and is monosynaptic, meaning only one synapse has to be crossed between the sensory neuron and the motor neuron. It is the simplest reflex arc and the integration center is the synapse itself. Polysynaptic reflexes are more complex and more common. They involve interneurons which are found in the CNS. More complex reflexes may have their integration center in the spinal cord, in the brainstem, or in the cerebrum where conscious thoughts are initiated.

Many people conider only the simplest types of responses as "reflexes", those that are always identical and do not allow conscious actions. We must not confuse these with "reactions", which are different from reflexes in that they are voluntary responses to a stimulus from the environment. For example, while the body has various subconscious physiological responses to mitigate cold, as humans we can simply choose to put on more clothes. This is a conscious order made by the cerebrum, not an involuntary response to a stimulus. This is a very complex response involving millions of neurons and some time to process the voluntary response. In contrast, spinal reflexes occur much faster, not only because they involve fewer neurons, but also becuase the electrical signal does not have to travel to the brain and back. Spinal reflexes only travel to the spinal cord and back which is a much shorter distance. Because of this and the complexity of conscious reactions, they take more time to complete than a reflex. On average, humans have a reaction time of 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus (2). Reaction times vary from individual to individual. Because of the higher degree of neural processing, reaction times can be influenced by a variety of factors. Reaction times can decrease with practice, as often times athletes have faster reaction times than non-athletes. Sleepiness, emotional distress, or consumption of alcohol can also impact reaction time."

The unified mind/body doesn't require conscious thought to operate. They aren't standing side by side with the mind leading the body in any conscious way. Mind/body is an integrated, single thing. And while the word "ki" is a label it's also the thing itself. We all have minds, we all have bodies. But without having mind and body coordinated ki is not manifest.

Ron

I think ki is the thing that binds mind and body and is present at all times to various degrees of intensity or awareness - what really gets the mind/body connection clicking along well is the level of ki cultivation development within the body - at first, most need to make this a conscious effort and eventually it gets conditioned to be unconscious and more natural in all your activities. - just my opinion based on my ki/qi model.

"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."

We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.

So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.

Ron

Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:

It would be better not to use an ambiguous word like ki.

dps

It is clear from what I've written, David, that I agree with you (although Ron makes a strong point); what other words/phrases might we use?

If you pick a word that is already obscure in its meaning the content or value is obscured to.

Intent is better understood by the western mind.

dps

Folks
This I agree with........

One of the issues I have had since I had been in training long enough and had trained often enough with folks outside my local group to realize we didn't share common definitions and approaches was to ask "how do you teach extend ki......how to keep weigh under or down.....how do you transfer momentum....all of that....... The problem as I see it is there are fundamental exercises and methods for doing this though, like aiki taiso, sets of exercises like those from Allen Beebe's teacher, other sets that some folks have developed during the course of their training and sets from folks coming in from the outside like Dan Harden. The problem is that most don't want to spent the time to recalibrate bodies and minds to different approaches, feel that they "already do that or this what they already do" (maybe so...) or have developed enough work arounds during 20 plus years of training to see no value in exploring what they don't really know........

So maybe it was better before the internet.......back when we were isolated locally or regionally, separated by association, by style, by teacher.......because it still seems this is the case today.....then we didn't know what we didn't know and didn't have to deny what we didn't know and our exploring was limited.......

If you pick a word that is already obscure in its meaning the content or value is obscured to.

The word "ki" is a homonym. I believe (though I'm speculating here) that it's a homonym in Japanese as well as its adopted usage in English. Like all homonyms, the meaning of the word ki is derived from the context in which it is used.

To insist that ki have one and only one correct meaning is like asking what is the one correct meaning of the word "bank". Is a bank a raised ridge or shelf, or is a bank a place where financial transactions are conducted? Obviously a bank is both but the meaning of the word bank can only be known when it is used in a sentence.

Greg and I recently had a side discussion of this topic wherein we each related our views and experiences regarding the nature of ki. Though our views are diametrically opposed, we had an informative,cordial and fruitful discussion because neither of us insisted that the word ki had to conform to one and only one meaning. There was no obscurity or ambiguity because we each clearly defined the value of the content to which our individual use of the word ki referred.

The word "ki" is a homonym. I believe (though I'm speculating here) that it's a homonym in Japanese as well as its adopted usage in English. Like all homonyms, the meaning of the word ki is derived from the context in which it is used.

To insist that ki have one and only one correct meaning is like asking what is the one correct meaning of the word "bank". Is a bank a raised ridge or shelf, or is a bank a place where financial transactions are conducted? Obviously a bank is both but the meaning of the word bank can only be known when it is used in a sentence.

Greg and I recently had a side discussion of this topic wherein we each related our views and experiences regarding the nature of ki. Though our views are diametrically opposed, we had an informative,cordial and fruitful discussion because neither of us insisted that the word ki had to conform to one and only one meaning. There was no obscurity or ambiguity because we each clearly defined the value of the content to which our individual use of the word ki referred.

Ron

Well, there are a relatively small number of sounds in Japanese - so everything's a homonym to something, in a manner of speaking. OTOH, the kanji for "ki" is specific, as is the usage in certain martially related compounds - you wouldn't mistake if for a bookshelf, for example.