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When the situation is complex, the people will use short cut. If you learn to do a rap on bolt without testing the anchor, you will do the same in a dangerous situation where your life is threatening and, some time, you will have an accident

< insert X-position joke here >

True enough. But it seems like so many of these threads about safety and efficacy end up beating the same dead horse. Am I missing something?

When the situation is complex, the people will use short cut. If you learn to do a rap on bolt without testing the anchor, you will do the same in a dangerous situation where your life is threatening and, some time, you will have an accident

I was at a cliff recently and had fun climbing with two good partner. And other party climb aside us an the guy explain me that he "teach" to his friend how to rapp. I asked him if he had climb at canon, a remote area. He said no, but he still teach how to rapp. I asked him if he used many technique to rap (figure eight, not, atc, etc) he said no.

In two or three years, some of the new generation will teach to rapp. They will teach just one method on bolt because he never learned some think else. The new teacher will not even know that other technique exist and how they can make decision to use one technique instead of an other.

Heuristic clue the explanation of that tendency to use a standard method, one method for every thing, as good because it is accept by the majority of people.

Even if it is not acceptable by gravity. Fighting gravity is the only reason of safety

DLottmann

Quoting yourself and talking about something other than the original topic is excellent thread hijacking LL. Nice one.

To address your last post though...

You seem to make a lot of assumptions of people. Just because someone hasn’t climbed Cannon or teaches how to use a figure-eight doesn’t mean they can’t show someone how to rap safety on an ATC. We all start out as beginners and some of us start teaching very early in our climbing careers. I was showing friends how to rappel when I was 16 from a pine tree in my back yard... with the now obsolete figure-8 (for recreational climbing).

Despite your heuristic issue, it is best to master one method of rappelling rather than learn 12 different ways to do it in one day IMO.

I was showing friends how to rappel when I was 16 from a pine tree in my back yard... with the now obsolete figure-8 (for recreational climbing).

This is now waaaaaaaaaaay off topic, but I know of at least one Rumney / Cannon local who raps on a figure-eight. I'm not saying it's not an obsolete-ish piece of gear for most modern uses, just that for this guy, it still works. I almost pissed myself when he used it to go hands free to clean a ledge. Forgot you could do that with the old 8s so easily. :-)

Logged

We came to climb, not to whine.

DLottmann

I know of at least one Rumney / Cannon local who raps on a figure-eight. I'm not saying it's not an obsolete-ish piece of gear for most modern uses, just that for this guy, it still works. I almost pissed myself when he used it to go hands free to clean a ledge. Forgot you could do that with the old 8s so easily. :-)

Totally works... twists the rope like mad (unless you set it up plate-style).

For those interested in the reason 8's are still used for Swat/Military is they generate less friction while rapping at high speed, and dissipate that heat better, reducing the likelihood of damaging the sheath of the rope. It's good to rap fast when you might be getting shot at...

Al, feel free to move this to General Climbing as it has drifted quite far from an event announcement.

As I don't want to attack the credibility of any one, but talk about safety, the problem of avalanche and the way people make decision on a risky situation and the problem of rapp and the way people make decision is very close togheter.

Knowledge transfert is very important. And, maybe you are just teaching heuristic method and not: carefully building on decision skills that students already have. One method at a time, but knowing to see the danger when you never been in a position to understand that there is a danger and teaching your lack of experience... it was my question at the begining how can you built decision skill when a person just have to repeat a procedure???

You haven't used a Petzl Variable Rack Descender to rappel 500 meters of continuous 11MM static line in the dark?You probably shouldn't be teaching rappelling on an ATC then and stick to bolts.

There is many company who make atc. I am sure that you don't use all the device made by all the company on earth because you don't know or had the time to try it. I don't use petzl descender...because I don't need too. Why should I brought a rope of 500 meters to climb a route???

Nevertheless, I understand how the device work. I have a deep understand of it and I can construct the device with biner to lower two climber at the same time in emergency situation.

Dman you are a good example of superficial rules. Instead of rising the level of decision of the population in your favor (noting good point and asking the people to discuss them), you try to pull me down to your level. I climbed in remote area, as many experiences climbers, and I have to be safe. When there was a flood in la malbaie, quebec, I was alone with my partner in a 1200 feet cliff and only four party had done the route since there first ascent ten years before. Safety was a concern on every move, not just when it is time to rap. I could had died from a broken angle as we didn't had any cell phone to be rescue.

and I don't teach...even if I am aware of the safety of my partner and gave some advice to be safer.

DLottmann

LL, you may not “teach”, but you judge other’s who were “teaching” rappelling because they had not climbed on Cannon. Can you not see how judgmental that is?

As for saying I use “superficial rules”, have you ever climbed with me? Have you watched me guide? Have you spoken to any of the hundreds of students I have taught? Then I think you should go easy on accusations...

LL, you may not “teach”, but you judge other’s who were “teaching” rappelling because they had not climbed on Cannon. Can you not see how judgmental that is?

I am concerne about safety. Some one who just raopp in a gym (sport with bolt anchor) and teach to other how to rapp at cathedral can teach a procedure with little or no information on how to take a decision in a high risk situation (thunderstorm or injury or stranded or dehydratation).

Accuse me of any thing, I don"t care...It is superficial and show more frustration than a deep understanding. If you teach how to take decision in complex situation you should act like taking decision on a real problem than trying to insult other,

Thinking that it is a mistake to teach without a deep understanding of the cliff (canon cathedral) and the human factor is a problem actually and if the person read what I wrote, there is good chance that he will or take a course with a local guide or train for some days to have more experience.

In a gym, it is cheaper to take someone with no experience than an experience climber, a decision that I don't agree with.