In the 2017 Handbook, Helsley was unranked (not top 30 in the system) but was listed as the eighth name – among the RH relievers! They named 14 right-handed starters, with 11 ranked, and Helsley was not among them.

Alcantara at #70. I’d bet money he wouldn’t have been ranked if he wasn’t traded.

I don’t see how the Dodgers catcher passed Kelly. He’s better than Kelly was at the same age, same level, but Kelly wasn’t ranked back then. What Kelly has done in the last two years is the best case scenario for this Ruiz kid. Ridiculous.

Flaherty is far too low imo. He should be top 25.

Reyes is better than every one of those 5 RHPs ahead of him, but I guess the injury is enough of a red flag to drop him. It apparently wasn’t during the mid-season top 100 when they had him higher than every other pitcher in baseball. So much has changed since then though right? Whatever….I don’t remember them dropping Giolito or Glasnow that far after surgery, but I may not be remembering things right.

I brought up Bader specifically because some posters here already have his name penciled onto the St. Louis roster. I expect a good spring fight between him and O’Neill and if the latter has a hot spring, he could easily be the one riding in the parade on Opening Day instead. It is not like Bader’s handful of at-bats with St. Louis last season stood out.

I don’t know the other pitchers well enough to compare, but in the only other new top 100 I have seen (BaseballHQ), Flaherty is #41. Not top 25. As more national lists are announced, I will do my annual comparison articles.

Reyes is #8 on HQ’s list, though they lowered his career ceiling. Much more on that in an upcoming subscriber article series.

Adolis is a very promising player, but has far less Triple-A experience than the other two and unlike them, is not on the 40-man. With the Cards wanting to get good looks at Bader and O’Neill, since there is now a real job open, I suspect Garcia will not get adequate at-bats this spring to compete for St. Louis. And if so, it would not bother me. But this is just my educated guess.

I personally feel like Flaherty is top 25. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pitcher dominate the way he did in AA and AAA in 2017, with good peripherals and at a very young age too. His innings load was 160 too, which is very promising as he’s basically ready for a full year of pitching right now. Compared to Weaver and Reyes, that has to look good to Cardinal management.

I think a lot of people see Bader in STL due to Fowler appearing to have lost a step and the need of a more pure CF. O’Neill has dabbled in CF but then again they want to play Fowler in RF. So if O’Neill some how makes the roster. I don’t see them with much hesitation putting Fowler or Ozuna in CF should an injury or day off is needed for Pham. Just the way I see things.

That being said Bader is likely the front runner based on Matheny’s familiarity with him from his stint with the team even if O’Neill has a little bit better spring. That is unless all power on personnel has been stripped from MM.

I do not understand the logic that a “pure” CF is needed most when all of the other outfielders on the team (except Martinez) can also play a credible center. Bader’s perceived advantage, which I believe is small, could increase or disappear entirely during March games.

I think the most important criteria in making the decision will be the bat. Who can come off the bench and deliver the big hit – more than who can come in and play the best CF defense? Remember the bench is going to be just four players, two of whom are Kelly and Greg Garcia. May the best man win this spring.

P.S. I am sure 99.9% of us would have said a year ago at this time that the very familiar Pham was a virtual lock to make the team and outsider Martinez would be in Memphis. That is why they have spring training.

Pads, we do not disagree with how well Flaherty stacks up against other Cardinals pitchers. However, the question on the table is not that – it is the national top 25. The only way to answer that is to compare him to the other organizations’ pitchers ahead of him (and/or the other hitters). I admit I am not familiar enough with the others to do that, but respect those who take on that task. Not an easy job.

14NyquisT, I think you know where I am coming from. Kelly is in a tough position, where he is not going to be able to grow appreciably while warming up relievers in the bullpen. In 2 1/2 months with St. Louis, he got just 69 at-bats and OPSed .457. (That is OPS, not SLG.) And more than a third of those very limited at-bats came in the final week when Molina was out with his concussion. A player can take BP until his hands are raw and watch film for days on end, but there are some who believe it is not ever going to be the same as participating in live game action on a daily basis.

A 19-year old catcher expected to debut at Double-A has more development runway ahead of him. Of course, he has more yet to prove than Kelly and may not make it, but I understand those who see he has a chance based on his tools and what he has accomplished to date.

If ranking was just based on how close players are to the majors, it would be easy. Just put all the Triple-A guys first and work down from there. But when all is said and done, rankings are someone’s informed opinions. They are not gospel.

Pads, we do not disagree with how well Flaherty stacks up against other Cardinals pitchers. However, the question on the table is not that – it is the national top 25. The only way to answer that is to compare him to the other organizations’ pitchers ahead of him (and/or the other hitters). I admit I am not familiar enough with the others to do that, but respect those who take on that task. Not an easy job.

Didn’t he get pitcher of the year honors in both the Texas League and the Pacific Coast?

A 19-year old catcher expected to debut at Double-A has more development runway ahead of him. Of course, he has more yet to prove than Kelly and may not make it, but I understand those who see he has a chance based on his tools and what he has accomplished to date.

Kelly did exactly that heading into 2016, debuting at AA at 19-years old. He’s done nothing to diminish his runway. That’s my point. Best case scenario for Ruiz would be matching Kelly’s path or besting it, which (as Chance Sisco has shown) is difficult. Kelly is very underrated for a catcher imo.

If I remember the math correctly, we’ve spent huge parts of the last couple decades in the lower half of prospect lists while spending most of the time in the playoffs (and overall in the top 5 of WAR produced).

Well Brian if O’Neill has a better spring then I agree he should be there. However unless some personnel decisions have been stripped from Matheny then he’ll fight lile hell for Bader to be here if its nip and tuck. He has favorites as we all know.