Browns standout returner Joshua Cribbs(notes) wasn’t thrilled by the changes, tweeting: “Essentially taking returners out of the game…injuries will still take place, then what move it up again, or eliminate it all together.”

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

Good thing he went on ESPN 56 times in a week and hit up Twitter to get that new contract. Especially good thing Cleveland supported an entitled and spoiled athlete (& criminal) getting what he wanted by abusing the system. Good thing spoiled athletes only control their own destiny in the NBA.

Good thing he went on ESPN 56 times in a week and hit up Twitter to get that new contract. Especially good thing Cleveland supported an entitled and spoiled athlete (& criminal) getting what he wanted by abusing the system. Good thing spoiled athletes only control their own destiny in the NBA.

I don't know, the main difference between the Cribbs and James saga was the fact, that if Cribbs booked, at least the Browns would have received some decent compensation for him, and he wasn't say, near as important to the franchise as say Joe Thomas or for example, Ray-Ray to the Ravens.

Cribbs is expendable. Sure our kick-return game and offense may suffer, but eventually the Browns would be able to find some other hot shot speed guy and the fans would be rocking his jersey in the muni-lot within weeks.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Do they think guys will be moving slower starting just 5 yards behind where the ball is kicked by the time those guys get to the 5 or 10 yard line down field?

I think those guys will be moving just as fast and may not have wasted ten yards of gas starting there. And those guys with that head of steam will be racing downfield against guys who can no longer form a wedge?

Alrighty then.

I'm sure smarter people than me can explain the physics behind this one. I understand the 'more touchbacks' thing but the rest seems to be a bit shortsighted to me.

Good thing he went on ESPN 56 times in a week and hit up Twitter to get that new contract. Especially good thing Cleveland supported an entitled and spoiled athlete (& criminal) getting what he wanted by abusing the system. Good thing spoiled athletes only control their own destiny in the NBA.

I don't know, the main difference between the Cribbs and James saga was the fact, that if Cribbs booked, at least the Browns would have received some decent compensation for him, and he wasn't say, near as important to the franchise as say Joe Thomas or for example, Ray-Ray to the Ravens.

Cribbs is expendable. Sure our kick-return game and offense may suffer, but eventually the Browns would be able to find some other hot shot speed guy and the fans would be rocking his jersey in the muni-lot within weeks.

Yeah - that sixth round draft pick we traded Cribbs for would have been huge!!!!!!!!!!

And that political grandstanding to get a bullshit raise after signing a six year deal wasn't despicable at all!!!!!!

And he isn't a criminal!!!!!!

It's not like half of Cleveland was screaming "PAY THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!"

Nope, Cleveland knew enough to identify an asshole athlete for the asshole he was (he just signed a six fucking year contract) and told him to get bent!!!!!!!!!

Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

jta1975 wrote:Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

^ this is an interesting point. One that I doubt is right (because seldom in life do loop-a-rounds that make this much sense actually happen) but it's a fuck of a point.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Good thing he went on ESPN 56 times in a week and hit up Twitter to get that new contract. Especially good thing Cleveland supported an entitled and spoiled athlete (& criminal) getting what he wanted by abusing the system. Good thing spoiled athletes only control their own destiny in the NBA.

It wouldn't surprise me if he did it again with the new rules depending on just how much of his contract is based on kickoff-related incentives.

I can see Mrs. Cribbs going all ex-Mrs. Boozer on him and making Josh walk into the Walrus's office to plead their...his case.

Looks like Josh is going to HAVE to learn to run routes correctly or wind up coaching HS like Ricky Powers.

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Larvell Blanks wrote:Looks like Josh is going to HAVE to learn to run routes correctly or wind up coaching HS like Ricky Powers.

Combination of route-running, fluidity and hands that hold him back. Add in his age and he is what he's going to be IMO.

Billy "White Shoes" Johnson w/o the end zone dance, if that?

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Larvell Blanks wrote:Looks like Josh is going to HAVE to learn to run routes correctly or wind up coaching HS like Ricky Powers.

Combination of route-running, fluidity and hands that hold him back. Add in his age and he is what he's going to be IMO.

Billy "White Shoes" Johnson w/o the end zone dance, if that?

I don't think his hands or hips are good enough to run that slant route in the WCO even if he'd be fun to watch after a catch. He's a straight liner and power guy so his deep speed isn't 'burner' category and he ain't a flea-type wideout like D Jackson who's gonna wiiggle and quick past ya then burst by everyone else.

Dude's a KR. Ship has sailed and that's the one he's on.

ETA- If you want max value out of JC you don't keep plugging him into a WR spot.

You make him the PR/KR and the gunner (or upback) on punts and kicks. You also make him the effing holder on PATs and FGs because of the added element he can give you there with the potential to run or throw on a fake or a 2-point conversion.

He plays every special team until he is killed or gets too old to do it.

jta1975 wrote:Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

This.

Strong kickers will change their approach and try to hang it real high to the 10 or so. Giving them the ball on the 25 is statistically undesirable, and everyone will avoid that if possible. Probably put even more speed on the KO team because the shorter distance and higher hang time makes it more like a punt with 8 gunners instead of 2.

Except you can't block a KO, so if anything it puts more of a requirement for uber-fast assassins than the punt unit.

Good call. Complete miss-fire, and I bet not one coach or former coach had any input into that discussion process.

jta1975 wrote:Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

This.

Strong kickers will change their approach and try to hang it real high to the 10 or so. Giving them the ball on the 25 is statistically undesirable, and everyone will avoid that if possible. Probably put even more speed on the KO team because the shorter distance and higher hang time makes it more like a punt with 8 gunners instead of 2.

Except you can't block a KO, so if anything it puts more of a requirement for uber-fast assassins than the punt unit.

Good call. Complete miss-fire, and I bet not one coach or former coach had any input into that discussion process.

Touchbacks are still at the 20.

If it is so easy to just add air under the kickoff and make someone return it from the 1, why is Billy Cundiff kicking 75& of his kicks 7 yards deep?

Teams will not want to risk the kick return to maybe save 5 yards. Give them an easy out with the touchback and they will take it.

Big thing to me is the guy that gets kept on the 53 because of his coverage skills over a guy that is the better player in other areas is now going to have less value.

Do they think guys will be moving slower starting just 5 yards behind where the ball is kicked by the time those guys get to the 5 or 10 yard line down field?

I think those guys will be moving just as fast and may not have wasted ten yards of gas starting there. And those guys with that head of steam will be racing downfield against guys who can no longer form a wedge?

Alrighty then.

I'm sure smarter people than me can explain the physics behind this one. I understand the 'more touchbacks' thing but the rest seems to be a bit shortsighted to me.

I do think it could open up the KOR lanes across the field more, but we'll hav to wait nd see.

The NFL considered making KO TB's a 25 yard spot but didn't. Too bad. It would have counterbalanced, becasue these rules just relegated the KOR -- an exciting play -- to the frequency of a reverse AFAIC.

Other than LeChuck playing Eugene Debs when it comes to his POV on the players, I think they put on a great show. Clearly more practical knowledge than any other radio program.

I think the running will be more intense, but the blockers more spread out with wider lanes lanes. Just a WAG. they could just do what they are doing now and even rebuild the wedge, just without joining arms.

Other than LeChuck playing Eugene Debs when it comes to his POV on the players, I think they put on a great show. Clearly more practical knowledge than any other radio program.

I think the running will be more intense, but the blockers more spread out with wider lanes lanes. Just a WAG. they could just do what they are doing now and even rebuild the wedge, just without joining arms.

jta1975 wrote:Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Pop-em up, make the KR wait for it around the goal line, then swarm him like he was a PR. Prevent injury? Probably not.

jta1975 wrote:Actually I think this is will back fire the league. I don't think guys will kick it through the endzone like they think.

Actually I think the good kickers will get more air underneath. They will get more hang time and try to get the returner to catch the ball right inside the the endzone. That way you could try and pin them inside the 15, instead of giving them the ball at the 20.

The returners the collisions won't go down they will just move the collision point. Teams always try to figure out a way to get better field position.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Pop-em up, make the KR wait for it around the goal line, then swarm him like he was a PR. Prevent injury? Probably not.

I thought about that. If the ball lands any deeper than the ten, its going into the end zone. Course you are taking a chance by letting it bounce, but a kickoff on turf is going to skip 10-15 yards easy unless the Kicker is really talented.

This new rule REALLY makes an unsportsmanlike penalty on a touchdown hurt. Instead of having a 95% chance of them with the ball on the twenty, now its highly likely that they catch the ball inside the ten. Most of the time it gets out to the 30 PLUS the chance of a KO return for a TD is thrown into the equation.

peeker643 wrote:But tell me how it improves player safety on the balls that are returned and why can't I find any data or analysis on kickoff related injuries versus quick slants across the middle analysis?

Maybe they should outlaw slants too. Lotta moving traffic in the middle of the field. Most violent collisions I see every Sunday are those.

And don't forget to legislate out guys leaving their feet on the goal line.

And maybe QB sneaks too since guys are leading with their heads.

Fucking ridiculous.

I'm probably in the minority, but it makes sense to me on a couple levels. One, in this moment of labor strife, the owners create the appearance of being concerned for the player's safety.

Second, kickoffs are the only play in football where you have both teams running full tilt down the field AT each other. Punts are similar, but players start at the same spot, and run kind of together. There is a real risk of concussion and parlysis. (Which btw,is what the players should be appealing to the public with, instead of the backfiring exploding cigar of the slavery card, but I digress). JB is right, wedges may still exist, but it is easier to split blockers when their arms aren't interlocked.

Wideouts get lit up going over the middle, and modern players can accelerate to speed in a hurry, but it's more often a drag down tackle than a head on collision.

Also, IMO, kickers have been getting stronger for awhile. Nobody's bitching that modern kickers have reduced the amount of kickoff returns. JTA's idea of higher kick offs is intriguing. I was thinking you might see more reverses and laterals and tricks as teams try to make the most of return chances, but probably not. There will still be windy days, there will be 4th quarters where the kickoffs fall a bit shorter. Some returners will still bring it out just for the hell of it. Just don't see it as a big change, more of a safety adjustment than anything else.

I disagree gameface. You look at the day Harrison, et al got fined and players left the field all day with concussions. None of them were kickoffs. The Daryl Stingley, Mike Utley injuries weren't kickoff-related injuries.

When was the last severe kickoff-related you can recall?

Guys aren't going full blast for 80 yards, they're maintaining lanes and maintaining control and moving with the ball. Every player is in front of them, there are no distractions like reaching back over the middle for a throw, etc.

Nope.

Kickoffs aren't the problem in regard to injuries. Not the severe ones anyway. That's subjective because I've again seen no data on this but guys get laid out way worse on slants/look-ins, etc. Guys get hurt way worse on helmet to helmet dives and off tackle plays.

I'm not buying it. I will buy it's a shitty attempt to curry favor with fans and it's a pr move. Hell, I'll go so far as to say, like Doug Gottlieb mentioned today, that it's a move designed to show good intent when some group of players files a class action lawsuit. But it's not because kickoffs are leaving NFL fields looking like Antietam.

No one has to play football. Most of the risks are assumed by the guys that cash the checks. This is the pussification of the game, plain and simple.

peeker643 wrote:But tell me how it improves player safety on the balls that are returned and why can't I find any data or analysis on kickoff related injuries versus quick slants across the middle analysis?

Maybe they should outlaw slants too. Lotta moving traffic in the middle of the field. Most violent collisions I see every Sunday are those.

2 hand touch = tackle within 10 yards of LOS on a pass across the LOS?

peeker643 wrote:I disagree gameface. You look at the day Harrison, et al got fined and players left the field all day with concussions. None of them were kickoffs. The Daryl Stingley, Mike Utley injuries weren't kickoff-related injuries.

When was the last severe kickoff-related you can recall?

No one has to play football. Most of the risks are assumed by the guys that cash the checks. This is the pussification of the game, plain and simple.

As alway, YMMV

Fair enough on the YMMV.

The last close injury was the Lions (IIRC) player who got carted off this past season.

And yes, the worst injuries have come on regular plays. And Id add Dennis Byrd of the Jets to that list. But you can't do much rules wise to eliminate those plays without undoing the game itself. Kickoffs, like QB protection and defenseless receivers rules, can be tweaked without changing the nature of the game. And who knows what percentage of concussions, reported or otherwise, occur on kickoffs? Since most special teamers are hardly household names, and are considered pretty much replaceable, perhaps their injuries aren't quite as over the radar as position players on offense and defense. But I concede that there is no hard evidence that special teams is inherently more dangerous than regular play.

And I'm assuming you're being a touch sarcastic with the statement that most of the risks are on the owners. If not, that's a bizarre POV. Owning an NFL franchise is one of the lowest risk business situations that I can think of, anywhere.

Even if life altering injuries are rare, players are at risk to spend their lives in a wheelchair every time they take the field. Life expectancy for NFL players is below the average. Sure the pay is nice, but would you shorten your life for it, and for something that is in essence, entertainment for the masses? Would you like to come out of your thirties with mangled fingers, arthritic joints and mangled knees? How about impaired brain function? Or even get a case of testicular staph like poor old Winslow? ; )

Pussification of the NFL.....well, then, let's go back to leather helmets and no facemasks.

^ if they really wanted it to be safer they would go back to leather helmets... or at least experiment with some sort of padding on the outside of the helmet. No one is going to intentionally spear someone with a leather helmet. Not advocating, just sayin'

The players know that going in. They may not care because they're 22 and invincible and they don't listen for shit, but the information is there. It's on them as football is clearly violence per se.

ANd I wasn't clear. Obviously the physical risks are to the players but the point was they are well compensated and well aware of that when they enter the draft voluntarily or when they walk into a free agent camp voluntarily.

You don't want the risk? Don't play the game. Use your college scholly to do what I do for 45 years where no one's gonna roll up your leg and the biggest risk is playing coffee machine bingo in the morning.

No worries of concussions, paralysis or mangled hands in that line of work and they are free to pursue it at any time.

Byt htere are players who understand it as an inherent risk and play anyway. 65 years of big dollars and being blown strikes them better than doing what I do and maybe living to 80.

I'm saying that no one in the game is ignorant to the risks. You assume them or you don't. Your choice as the athlete.

Roll the bones.

gameface wrote:Fair enough on the YMMV.

The last close injury was the Lions (IIRC) player who got carted off this past season.

And I'm assuming you're being a touch sarcastic with the statement that most of the risks are on the owners. If not, that's a bizarre POV. Owning an NFL franchise is one of the lowest risk business situations that I can think of, anywhere.

Even if life altering injuries are rare, players are at risk to spend their lives in a wheelchair every time they take the field. Life expectancy for NFL players is below the average. Sure the pay is nice, but would you shorten your life for it, and for something that is in essence, entertainment for the masses? Would you like to come out of your thirties with mangled fingers, arthritic joints and mangled knees? How about impaired brain function? Or even get a case of testicular staph like poor old Winslow? ; )

IMO, it will serve to make the game less exciting, with minimal safety gains for players.

To me it smacks of the "we've got to do something...anything" syndrome...for appearances and legal ass-covering.

One of these days soon, a player will die on the field in an NFL game. It is almost inevitable given the size/speed/impact combinations. The sport will be rocked to its foundations and we'll find out then if it can survive and move on. I suspect it will.

Agree with Peeker that the job has high pay, and it comes with occupational hazards...like bull-fighting and skyscraper window-washing and Indy Car driving. You agree to participate in it with your eyes open to the risks.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

The elimination of the 10-15 yard running start (it is now only five) is going to go a long way toward eliminating the sky kick. Players are going to be getting off the line real slow, thus increasing the risk of big returns if kickers don't vag out and kick the pussy ass touchback.

This is the NFL fundamentally altering the game of football by attempting to eliminate returns. The pussification of the game because they want something to crow about as a sign of caring about the players during the lockout.

Kickoffs are part of football, eliminating them is rotten vaginal juice.

This is the NFL fundamentally altering the game of football by attempting to eliminate returns. The pussification of the game because they want something to crow about as a sign of caring about the players during the lockout.

Kickoffs are part of football, eliminating them is rotten vaginal juice.

SD:

Cuts down jobs .

Return Specialists aren't gonna be a need item , nor be able to demand to be paid .

This is the NFL fundamentally altering the game of football by attempting to eliminate returns. The pussification of the game because they want something to crow about as a sign of caring about the players during the lockout.

Kickoffs are part of football, eliminating them is rotten vaginal juice.

Yeah I get that. But if the NFL wanted to eliminate returns they would have just done so and started possessions at the 20.