World Families Forums - R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226

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@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info. I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this: Someone in Spain or the coast of France was born with the Z253 mutation about 3000 or so years ago. One of his descendents a thousand or more years later sailed to Ireland, working his way up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland. Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century. Is that in the right time frame? Any other ideas?

Your assumption is a possibility, but the origin of Z253 has not been established with any confidence. You can see from Mike's spreadsheet that there are a number of clusters under Z253 with considerably different profiles with high Irish origin, from several distinct areas of Ireland. If Z253 originated on the continent either there were several migrations to Ireland that resulted in the different clusters, or there was a single migration shortly after the Z253 origin and the different clusters developed within Ireland. The 253-1716-11 cluster to which you belong is probably around 1500 years old, and there was probably mobility between Ireland and Wales during that period. There are several members with Welsh origin names in your cluster but none of them apear to be very close to you. Nevertheless it is within that cluster that your closest matches will be found.

Quite a number within the cluster have upgraded to 111 markers so that is something you might consider. There is a sale on at the moment but it ends tomorrow.

j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century. Is that in the right time frame? Any other ideas?

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.

@autochthon and @embPA: Thanks, this is very interesting and useful info. I have now joined the Yahoo group and am trying to catch up.

Based on your observations about the central counties of Ireland where my haplotype seems to be common, I guess the implication is this: Someone in Spain up one of the rivers mentioned, settling in central Ireland. Later some of his descendents started migrating to other parts of the British Isles.

Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century. Is that in the right time frame? Any other ideas?

shortly after the Z253 origin and the different clusters developed within IrelandYour assumption is a possibility, but the origin of Z253 has not been established with any confidence. You can see from Mike's spreadsheet that there are a number of clusters under Z253 with considerably different profiles with high Irish origin, from several distinct areas of Ireland. If Z253 originated on the continent either there were several migrations to Ireland that resulted in the different clusters, or there was a single migration. The 253-1716-11 cluster to which you belong is probably around 1500 years old, and there was probably mobility between Ireland and Wales during that period. There are several members with Welsh origin names in your cluster but none of them apear to be very close to you. Nevertheless it is within that cluster that your closest matches will be found.

Quite a number within the cluster have upgraded to 111 markers so that is something you might consider. There is a sale on at the moment but it ends tomorrow.

Assuming that your DYS 19 = 10 is a single event mutation, looking at your closest matches you have several with relatively small genetic distance, suggesting that you probably share common ancestors with them in the past 1000 years, i.e. after the introduction of surnames. Your closest matches are of Irish origin rather than Welsh. Have you considered the possibility that your Morgan surname may be the Irish version, derived from the Gaelic O'Muireagain?

Your closest matches are of Irish origin rather than Welsh. Have you considered the possibility that your Morgan surname may be the Irish version, derived from the Gaelic O'Muireagain?

That is a possibility I've been considering, but it doesn't line up very well with the other things I know to date. Most things seem to point to ancestors in PA and VA who considered themselves of Welsh background. This week I will try to do GD comparisons with people from Welsh projects to see if there are any as close as the closest in the 253-1716 group. I'm also looking at possible Caribbean route. There were certainly many Irish who went to the Caribbean during the Cromwell period.

j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century. Is that in the right time frame? Any other ideas?

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.

What period do you think migrations from Wales were in?If Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders I find it unusual they would at some stage migrate to a place where their persecutors came from.

j... Am I on the right track? Where does Wales come in? I don't see many Welsh names under Z253. I read that there was some Irish settlement in Wales in the fourth and fifth century. Is that in the right time frame? Any other ideas?

There is a Wales DNA project at FTDNA too. You might consider joining it to see if you fit in any of their groups, or vice versa.

There were many migrations between Ireland and Wales, both directions. My own theory is that many of the Irish are not old, old pre-Roman Irish but were Brythonic speaking (or English) people that converted to Q-Celtic as they immigrated to Ireland.

What period do you think migrations from Wales were in?If Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders I find it unusual they would at some stage migrate to a place where their persecutors came from.

I never said the Welsh were forced to Northern France by Irish raiders.

I didn't say this either, but there are many historians that think that Britons from Great Britain (including Wales) left for Bretagne (Brittany), France during the Anglo-Saxon Invasion Era.

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and that people have migrated from Britain and Bretagne to Ireland many, many times. ... and some have circled back again to Britain, anyway, and to the continent at least a little.

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

That is what Nora Chadwick said in her book, Celtic Britain, I believe. It was either there or in the book she wrote with Myles Dillon, Celtic Realms. The Britons started going to Armorica (Bretagne) too early and from too far west to have been driven there by the Anglo-Saxons, plus there were Saxons living near the Loire in France. Chadwick believed the Britons were fleeing the Irish.

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

That is what Nora Chadwick said in her book, Celtic Britain, I believe. It was either there or in the book she wrote with Myles Dillon, Celtic Realms. The Britons started going to Armorica (Bretagne) too early and from too far west to have been driven there by the Anglo-Saxons, plus there were Saxons living near the Loire in France. Chadwick believed the Britons were fleeing the Irish.

I recall the cornish britons fleeing to Brittany france in large numbers only during the Prayer book rebellion. A lot where killed by the English at that time

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.

I think that is a very good summary. Of course what people (not yourself of course) often forget to remember is that for people living in an area with so much coast, the sea was an important highway as well as a lifeline, especially when you have two islands and the continent connected by relatively narrow stretches of water. I would be very surprised if there were not a number of people going between (and staying in)Ireland, Britain and Armorica every single year that they were inhabited, although i definitely agree that any major event that shuffled around tribal boundaries or caused catastrophes would have increased this many fold. There was definitely a great deal of gene-flow between the three areas, looking at all the L21 there.

I thought the migrations to Brittany from Wales preceeded the Saxons and may have started after raids from Ireland (I think I read that on DNA forums). Actually now thinking about it I recall a thread there where someone claimed a link between Wales and groups on the West of Ireland.

Ancient historians were not necessarily reliable, but regardless, I doubt if we should look at migrations from Britain to Ireland or Ireland to Britain or either to and from the Amorican Peninsula (where Bretagne is) as single events or even as a single phase.

Undoubtedly, the expansion of the Roman Empire and the Gallic Wars pushed Celts from France into Britain and across into Ireland as well as towards the fringes of the continent, such as the Armorican Peninsula of France. Some this may have resulted in a a domino effect pushing people from Britain into Ireland.

Also, the following expansion of the Roman Empire into Britain and wars against various Celtic tribes there also pushed people around. Old Brits on the wrong side of the war reportedly headed "for the hills". Essentially the rougher lands in what is now Wales and Scotland. Some folks probably were pushed or fled into Ireland and it makes sense that some would flee to the Armorican Peninsula, as some have reported. There may have already been relatives there to greet them. There may have been Britons fleeing some earlier Irish raids or maybe it was really just home.

Of course, later, the Anglo-Saxons came in and inflicted a lot of change on large parts of Britain. There were probably Britons fleeing in all directions, including Armorica. We also know of the ironic situation where Bretons from Armorica joined with or integraged with Normans and came back into England and then Wales and Scotland and finally all the way to Ireland. By the time the Normans reached Ireland, they were integrated with Welsh.

By the time of the English colonizations and Cromwell's work in Ireland, we probably have Old Britons that had been Anglicized and were Englishman that came with and followed Cromwell's path. Of course the Ulster Scots are from Northern Britain, Scotland.

All of this makes sense. What were the proportions of inhabitants that got where by what method, we'll probably never know, but I would think any significant cultural stress would have caused movement over the ages.

We don't have the historical record in prehistoric times, but we don't really have reason to think stability was all that high prior to the Romans so movements between Britain, Ireland, Amorica and vice versa could well have been common for thousand or two years.

One example is the La Tene Celt influence which is thought to have entered Ireland through Northern Britain. That is just one example, though. I'm not sure how the Bell Beaker cultures unfolded, but surely there was exchange of people across the Irish Sea and down to Armorica during this time period.

As far gene diversity goes, L21 appears older in England than in Ireland. I think it got there first. I just don't see how all of the L21 in Ireland would have come directly from the continent. Some must have come via Britain.

Of course there are links down to SW France and to Galician Spain as well.

Thanks, is there any genetic evidence of Wales to Ireland migration around the 5th century onwards?Also with surnames like Walsh and Burke do we see any clusters/patterns that might distinguish between Normans and local populations that adopted the surnames?

I have been confirmed as Z253+ by FTDNA today under kit number 233265. Surname Le Gall (meaning in breton language, the foreigner who does not speak breton).

To give you a short background of my family, for the last 4 centuries (back to 1605), my father, gd father etc.. are all born in Brittany, same town, same place. Confirmed by the genealogical tree that I have built this past year. Till now, I haven't found someone in my breton tree from one of these countries like Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England or Spain. However, 23andme has shown Iberia and British/Irish in my Ancestry Composition but at a very low percentage.

Geno 2.0 may provide additional details in the coming next weeks, still waiting for the results.

Also, my brother's kit is currently under testing, and should show the same results as mine. The very few first results are showing that he is potentially DF13, but I have no doubt that he should be Z253 shortly.

Welcome to the Z253 world, Joss. Your results are interesting in view of your Breton heritage.

You share five off-modals with Irish Type IV, but do not match on their other eight off-modals. Irish Type IV is Z253+, Z2534+, Z2185+ and L1066+ (in descending order).

You also share four off-modals with a group designated 253-1121, but do not match on their other six off-modals. This group is thought to be Z2534-, although only one person has tested so far, and if so must also negative for Z2185 and L1066. It includes persons with ancestry from Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands, as well as the Isles.

So your next step should be to test for Z2534, which I see you have already ordered. Your closest Z253+ matches are in the GD range of 12-15 and include several Irish Type IV and two members of 253-1121.

Hi Randy. L226 is a mutation on the Y-chromosome. You have your father's Y-chromosome and your mother's mitochondrial DNA, so there is no point in your testing unless you think your father may be L226+. Of course your mother does not have a Y-chromosome, so you will need to arrange testing on a male relative of your mother's, such as her brother or father, if you wish to establish the genetics of her paternal line.Greg