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Greetings fiends. I just learned I can still post despite not having a sub. On a side note, the name Chachii also refers to some offensive tribal culture somewhere in South America...I accidentally offended someone with it in my current game.

I have never played a warg but this video you have make them look a lot easier then the ones I kill on Vilya.
I dont know the warg skills but you seem to do over 50% crit atleast 70% of the damage coming off their head is a crit of dev and 20-30% Dev.

I have never played a warg but this video you have make them look a lot easier then the ones I kill on Vilya.
I dont know the warg skills but you seem to do over 50% crit atleast 70% of the damage coming off their head is a crit of dev and 20-30% Dev.

Also as for the crit chance, wargs have a trait to improve "skills from stealth" crit chance +25%, and 25% crit regularly is easily achievable on creepside now with 3 crit traits.
So the 50% crit chance isn't surprising since half of a warg's basic rotation skills act as if from stealth while in shadow.

I have never played a warg but this video you have make them look a lot easier then the ones I kill on Vilya.
I dont know the warg skills but you seem to do over 50% crit atleast 70% of the damage coming off their head is a crit of dev and 20-30% Dev.

Also as for the crit chance, wargs have a trait to improve "skills from stealth" crit chance +25%, and 25% crit regularly is easily achievable on creepside now with 3 crit traits.
So the 50% crit chance isn't surprising since half of a warg's basic rotation skills act as if from stealth while in shadow.

To clarify on this stuff:

There are a few different things at work.
#1, Shadow stance: Of primary note, this stance makes 3 skills bypass enemy bpe, Bestail Claws, Bloody Maul, and Pounce (though pounce is bugged to have a VERY small chance of being avoided still). All other skills (with the exception of Swipe, with avoids bpe in any stance) can and will be bpe'd quite normally.
Shadow Stance also combines with:

#2 The Element of Surprise which gives wargs a +20% chance to crit when attacking from stealth. Since Shadow makes 3 skills function as from stealth even when not, they get this +20% chance to crit at all times.

#3 Orc-craft/Fell-wrought damage does NOT bypass critical defense.

#4 Something about the shadow stance which afaik is undocumented increases the crit chance on Bestial Claws separately from The element of surprise. Out of stance, claws holds a normal crit chance, but simply entering shadow without element of surprise traited claws crit rate gains about 30-40% crit chance. This means with a capped crit rating, the ~35% from shadow, and the 20% from element of surprise bestial claws typically sees a crit rate of over 80%. My overall devastate rate seems to run about 12% most nights, which is slightly better than the cap of 10% that a ~16000 crit rating puts you at, and is consistent enough to be a trend, but I would say fights where our friend chachii saw 20-30% dev rates were simply luck.

Dev rate was a bit low compared to normal, but this is relatively standard for claws spam, if I'd had the patience to spam for a few hundred instead of 69 hits I bet the dev rate would have been a bit above 10%.

Hope this clears some things up for people not familiar with wargs.

Last edited by spelunker; Apr 07 2014 at 12:26 AM.

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[center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

There are a few different things at work.
#1, Shadow stance: Of primary note, this stance makes 3 skills bypass enemy bpe, Bestail Claws, Bloody Maul, and Pounce (though pounce is bugged to have a VERY small chance of being avoided still). All other skills (with the exception of Swipe, with avoids bpe in any stance) can and will be bpe'd quite normally.
Shadow Stance also combines with:

#2 The Element of Surprise which gives wargs a +20% chance to crit when attacking from stealth. Since Shadow makes 3 skills function as from stealth even when not, they get this +20% chance to crit at all times.

#3 Orc-craft/Fell-wrought damage does NOT bypass critical defense.

#4 Something about the shadow stance which afaik is undocumented increases the crit chance on Bestial Claws separately from The element of surprise. Out of stance, claws holds a normal crit chance, but simply entering shadow without element of surprise traited claws crit rate gains about 30-40% crit chance. This means with a capped crit rating, the ~35% from shadow, and the 20% from element of surprise bestial claws typically sees a crit rate of over 80%. My overall devastate rate seems to run about 12% most nights, which is slightly better than the cap of 10% that a ~16000 crit rating puts you at, and is consistent enough to be a trend, but I would say fights where our friend chachii saw 20-30% dev rates were simply luck.

Hope this clears some things up for people not familiar with wargs.

Few things:

1. Swipe does not ignore bpe. It only ignores evade.

2. Pounce does not act as from-stealth. The Shadow Stance tooltip says it does, but it does not.

3. The crit chance bonus on claws/maul is not undocumented, as Bestial Claws and Sudden Maul (the from-stealth versions of Claws and Maul) have always had an increased chance to crit. When Shadow Stance was introduced, and these skills while in Shadow always act as from-stealth, they always gain the extra chance to crit.

Not that OC/FW damage bypasses it, but that warg shadow skills (aka eye rake, pounce, claws, whichever other skill/s that is/are "buffed" by shadow) do not bypass crit defense? I have heard this multiple times from reliable people actually, and while I haven't formally tested it myself, it'd be great if someone could. Basically it was claimed that these certain skills, and only these certain skills, bypass crit defense completely, due to some aspect of damage from stealth negating a set amount of crit defense.

2. Pounce does not act as from-stealth. The Shadow Stance tooltip says it does, but it does not.

3. The crit chance bonus on claws/maul is not undocumented, as Bestial Claws and Sudden Maul (the from-stealth versions of Claws and Maul) have always had an increased chance to crit. When Shadow Stance was introduced, and these skills while in Shadow always act as from-stealth, they always gain the extra chance to crit.

4. There are no fights where I saw a 20-30% dev rate.

1.yeayeayeah on the swipe thing.

2. unless i'm the benefactor of some crazy aviodance luck in my favor, pounce does still have a highly increased chance to avoid bpe. As we've discussed before, I use pounce out of stealth FAR more than you, and in a typical evening of moorsing I doubt I have 5 pounce bpes in total of hundreds of them.

3. Maul has a vastly different crit rate from claws, and is typically in the 50-55% crit rate area, which is roughly in line with the element of surprise working with normal crit rates. See my screenshot for typical claws behavior, which is not the same at all. I honestly can't remember crit rates on the skills back in RoI after the revamp so you may be right, but that would mean, Element of Surprise doesn't work at all with Maul. I'll run a few tests and post up again, if I don't fall asleep first.

To go along with my previous post's picture, heres claws without element of surprise traited:
Here is Bloody Maul WITH Element of Surprise traited:
And here it is again [WITHOUT Element of Surprise traited:

not the strongest sample sizes on any of them, but I think if you run the numbers yourself you'll wind up with relatively similar ones.

Last edited by spelunker; Apr 07 2014 at 12:54 AM.

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[center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

2. unless i'm the benefactor of some crazy aviodance luck in my favor, pounce does still have a highly increased chance to avoid bpe. As we've discussed before, I use pounce out of stealth FAR more than you, and in a typical evening of moorsing I doubt I have 5 pounce bpes in total of hundreds of them.

Pounce from stealth is called Sudden Pounce. If you look at the skill while in Shadow Stance, and unstealthed, it is Pounce. It does not function as from-stealth, as it should. For Claws/Maul, the skills themselves change to become their from-stealth versions (Bestial Claws, Sudden Maul).

And yes, I don't use Pounce very often, as I find it somewhat cheap in 1v1s. I typically don't try for a second stun if I feel that I'm winning.

Originally Posted by spelunker

3. Maul has a vastly different crit rate from claws, and is typically in the 50-55% crit rate area, which is roughly in line with the element of surprise working with normal crit rates. See my screenshot for typical claws behavior, which is not the same at all. I honestly can't remember crit rates on the skills back in RoI after the revamp so you may be right, but that would mean, Element of Surprise doesn't work at all with Maul. I'll run a few tests and post up again, if I don't fall asleep first.

When I played in Moria, when Maul was introduced, Sudden Maul was huge, as it had a much larger chance to crit when used in stealth (Sudden Maul) as opposed to unstealthed. I don't recall if it seemed like the same rate as Bestial Claws, but if it did, then I would assume that if means that Element of Surprise doesn't work with Maul. If it doesn't, then I would assume that Sudden Maul has a lower crit chance than Bestial Claws, which is odd, because there has never been a specified difference between the two skills and their bonus to crit when used from stealth.

Note: Sudden Maul was also huge in Moria because the DOT was 20s, as opposed to the normal DOT duration of 10s with Maul.

Not that OC/FW damage bypasses it, but that warg shadow skills (aka eye rake, pounce, claws, whichever other skill/s that is/are "buffed" by shadow) do not bypass crit defense? I have heard this multiple times from reliable people actually, and while I haven't formally tested it myself, it'd be great if someone could. Basically it was claimed that these certain skills, and only these certain skills, bypass crit defense completely, due to some aspect of damage from stealth negating a set amount of crit defense.

Now I'm not sure.

They definitely do not bypass crit defence.

There are some weird things going on with crit defence, however, although I'm not sure exactly what. I assume it's due to the fact that crit defence can't lower the crit magnitude of a skill below its base crit mag. Therefore, if a warg has 38% crit mag, and claws has a base crit mag of 250%, you having 57% crit defence won't lower it past the 250% crit mag point. Again, I haven't tested it, so I'm not sure.

On a side note, I've never been a fan of the introduction of stances to wargs. My warg was rank 10 in early Moria, when the old Shadow Howler stance existed, and was the only form of a stance that did, and required rank 10 to acquire. It still sucked, of course, but the main thing I hate about Shadow is that it does lead to the Claws spam that warg classes are based around nowadays.

Here is Bloody Maul WITH Element of Surprise traited:
And here it is again [WITHOUT Element of Surprise traited:

not the strongest sample sizes on any of them, but I think if you run the numbers yourself you'll wind up with relatively similar ones.

Seems like Sudden Maul is functioning improperly then. Not only should it be critting more often without Element of Surprise traited, but the bonus with that trait seems to be much larger than what it should be. Could be due to the sample size, but like you said, I doubt it. Regardless, Sudden Maul should definitely be seeing a higher crit chance, unless they changed the skill when stances were introduced to not benefit from a base increase in crit chance when used from-stealth, while not changing the from-stealth crit bonus to claws. Again, seems weird.

Pounce from stealth is called Sudden Pounce. If you look at the skill while in Shadow Stance, and unstealthed, it is Pounce. It does not function as from-stealth, as it should. For Claws/Maul, the skills themselves change to become their from-stealth versions (Bestial Claws, Sudden Maul).

And yes, I don't use Pounce very often, as I find it somewhat cheap in 1v1s. I typically don't try for a second stun if I feel that I'm winning.

I don't always use pounce coupled with cripple for the stun, and its certainly possible that I have simply gotten RNG luck when i've gone back to check CA on pounce avoidance/crit rates, but it has always seemed to function as the tooltips state it should for me when i do, aside from very rare bpe occurrences. Perhaps a tng happy burg would be interested in helping to test?

When I played in Moria, when Maul was introduced, Sudden Maul was huge, as it had a much larger chance to crit when used in stealth (Sudden Maul) as opposed to unstealthed. I don't recall if it seemed like the same rate as Bestial Claws, but if it did, then I would assume that if means that Element of Surprise doesn't work with Maul. If it does, then I would assume that Sudden Maul has a lower crit chance than Bestial Claws, which is odd, because there has never been a specified difference between the two skills and their bonus to crit when used from stealth.

See my pictures added to the previous post.

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[center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

I don't always use pounce coupled with cripple for the stun, and its certainly possible that I have simply gotten RNG luck when i've gone back to check CA on pounce avoidance/crit rates, but it has always seemed to function as the tooltips state it should for me when i do, aside from very rare bpe occurrences. Perhaps a tng happy burg would be interested in helping to test?

Am nearly certain that such a test would show that it is bped. Also, this is why cripple + pounce does not knockdown on a crit. Only Sudden Pounce does that.

Could also test the crit chance of pounce. Am pretty certain it should show a higher crit rate when used from stealth as unstealthed - namely, the benefit from Element of Surprise.

Am nearly certain that such a test would show that it is bped. Also, this is why cripple + pounce does not knockdown on a crit. Only Sudden Pounce does that.

Could also test the crit chance of pounce. Am pretty certain it should show a higher crit rate when used from stealth as unstealthed - namely, the benefit from Element of Surprise.

I thought about this, but pounce counts as 2 hits in a combat log, each of which can crit, even though only 1 delivers damage, so accurately keeping track of this would require more than a quick look at CA (who knows if the damage and non-damage portions are both intended to follow the crit traits/stances) and i'm not interested in writing down every hit manually, waiting on the skill CD is bad enough.

[center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
[center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]