The Cost of Being an Overachiever

That’s one of the first questions we ask each other in our society. The choice of how you earn a living tells others a lot about you, whether those preconceived notions are accurate or not. If you’re at a party and someone says they’re an neurosurgeon, that’s pretty impressive. You know that meant years of study and took a lot of ambition, and comes with a salary of a few (or several) hundred thousand dollars.

Being a go-getter has its benefits. A fancy degree or three, the impressive salary, the big house purchased with the big salary — all are indicators that someone is on top of their game, we think.

But ambitious people aren’t necessarily more successful in life, according to a new study by Timothy Judge, professor of management at University of Notre Dame’s Mendoza College of Business. The study, “On the Value of Aiming High: The Causes and Consequences of Ambition,” will appear in the Journal of Applied Psychology.

“If ambition has its positive effects, and in terms of career success it certainly seems that it does, our study also suggests that it carries with it some cost,” Judge said in a press release. “Despite their many accomplishments, ambitious people are only slightly happier than their less-ambitious counterparts, and they actually live somewhat shorter lives.”

Measuring ambition
Judge followed 717 high-ability people using multiple criteria to measure ambition at different points in their lives. The education of participants varied, from high school diploma to community college to attending top universities, such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Northwestern, Cornell, Berkeley, Oxford, and Notre Dame.

Unsurprisingly, high-achieving children went on to earn higher education degrees, attend top universities, obtain impressive-sounding jobs, and make more money. It would appear that young go-getters are set up to win the game of life.

But Judge found that while ambition had a positive effect on social standing and salary, it doesn’t have the same effect on life satisfaction. When compared with a control group of laid-back, “Type B” people, the high achievers weren’t much happier. What’s more, being a go-getter might have a somewhat negative effect on lifespan. On average, the Type Bs outlived the Type As.

Success at the expense of longevity?
While high-achievers enjoy more success in their careers, Judge says that doesn’t lead to a happier, healthier life.

Although the study doesn’t address the reasons for higher mortality rates for Type As, Judge speculated that maybe “…the investments they make in their careers come at the expense of the things we know affect longevity: healthy behaviors, stable relationships and deep social networks,” he says.

In other words, yes, brain surgeons are well-paid and enjoy a prestigious career, and rightly so. The idea of cutting open someone’s brain and tinkering around in there dumbfounds me. (And makes me a little nauseous.) But as Judge’s research indicates, an impressive career doesn’t necessarily make someone happier. It’s also possible that what it takes to reach such a high level of achievement comes at a cost to longevity. Consider what it actually takes to be a surgeon, such as the following:

High competition to get into medical school

The most demanding education and training requirements of any occupation — usually four years of undergraduate school, four years of medical school, and three to eight years of internship and residency

Probably a mountain of student loan debt — according to the Association of American Medical Colleges, in 2007 85% of public medical school graduates and 86% of private medical school graduates were in debt for education expenses

Working long, irregular hours, typically more than 60 hours a week, and many of those hours on your feet

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

That’s a lot of stress, and you can imagine the implications those long, irregular hours might have for your family life. That’s not to say that people shouldn’t be ambitious — the world needs brain surgeons! But this study shows that, as with many things that might appear to be ideal, there’s a tradeoff.

I was frequently guilty of thinking someone with a high-paying career and an impressive job title “had it all.” It wasn’t until years of seeing that hypothesis disproved that I realized that every career has its benefits and drawbacks. For example, I had a friend who was marrying a doctor. He makes a lot of money, but their budget was tight because he’d just bought into a partnership in his practice. She was worried about their budget and wanted a simple wedding, but felt pressure to make it a more elaborate (read: expensive) event because of her husband’s social standing and his work associates.

Judge also warns that while parents understandably want their kids to be ambitious and have successful careers, they shouldn’t equate that with a happy life. “If your biggest wish for your children is that they lead happy and healthy lives, you might not want to overemphasize professional success,” he says. “There are limits to what our ambitions bring us — or our children.”

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I like this article! This is just another more evidence that money and success does not solve your problems and make you happy. Happiness is an internal satisfaction with who you are not with your circumstances in life.

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Me

Not including the hospital stay and their services – In the end my insurance company paid my brain surgeon 10k for my surgery. I thought that was a bargain given his skill and the schooling required to do such work.

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yourPFpro

Depends on your situation! If you work for yourself or a small company, you can see your daily impact. If you miss a day of work, you will see how much it affects everyone. If you’re at a larger company, it is not worth it. The company can and does let go of people all the time. They do not retain top level talent in the most effective manner.

Quick example: At my work(large aerospace engineering firm in San Diego), I worked 40 hours a week on the dot for the past year. My friend worked 50+ every week, his boss loved him. At the end of the year, he got a 3.5 % merit increase, I got 3%! Wow what a rip off for him! haha I was at the beach playing volleyball every day after work while he was still working…

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CSMajor

I think it really depends on what you want out of life. I’m studying computer science and neuroscience at an Ivy League University, and I haven’t gone to bed before 1 AM or worked fewer than ten hours any day in the last two weeks. Yes, you have to make a lot of sacrifices – I’m seeing my friends and boyfriend maybe half as much now that I’m a junior – but I’m studying how the relatives of people with mental illness can have milder versions of the same traits that are actually beneficial. There’s nothing I would trade for the thrill of understanding the human brain and how it interacts with a wildly complex social environment, and you absolutely have to put in the hours to really understand the science.

What’s more, even if your stressful job isn’t particularly creative or intellectually stimulating, I can see how some people thrive on prestige and power. I interned with a mammoth tech company last summer, and it thrilled me that I, as a nineteen-year-old, could ask our contractors to build a feature and that feature would appear in a week. Look up the Whitehall study – in a group of bureaucrats who all had access to the same health care, the more powerful ones lived two years longer on average than the less powerful ones. For many people, having lots of control and lots of responsibility is less stressful than a less demanding job would be.

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Anonymous

I’m not saying ambitious people don’t have problems but its far better to be ambitious than not. People shouldn’t become doctors, lawyers, etc. to please their parents. They should do it because they want to have that career.

I’m making 12k as I work and go to college and I don’t want to be making this much money the rest of my life. I want to make close to six figures or higher, I want a BMW, a nice house, nice clothes, nice jewelry and I don’t feel bad about it.

Honestly only in the U.S. is it bad to be an overachiever. We want everyone to be on the same level. But I don’t want to be on the same level as everyone else. I believe in having great relationships in addition to having a successful career.

The average person has zero savings, doesn’t know how to draw or play a musical instrument, doesn’t speak a 2nd language, doesn’t travel much, the average person doesn’t finish higher education and most work at a career they hate until they retire.

I want more out of life than a mediocre existence. I don’t want to kill myself over achievement and have high blood pressure, it is important to have balance, but I don’t want to be an underachiever either. Yes I do think you can have it all.

My parents had it all and actually still do, they worked at great jobs making close to a 6 figure income, they saved, they travel, and my mom speaks 4 languages. I want so much more out of life than being average.

Its easy to be average. But you will have a much richer life not only financially, but a richer inner life, if you are constantly growing, learning. Who wants to stay the same?

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Vic

I have spent 15 years in the corporate world, couldn’t have agreed more with this post.

As one moves up in the corporate ladder, the expectations are much higher. It comes with longer hours, more stress which means less time to yourself and with the family. The job becomes more important than the family.

This is the case in the current economy. Gone are the days when you could work 8-4 and call it a day.

Vic

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Honey

I really related to this article. In high school, I was on the dance team, president of the math club, secretary of a student volunteer organization, on brain bowl/academic team, second in my class, etc. I was in a sorority in college and graduated with a 4.0, and got my PhD by the time I was 29. Then life intervened and instead of the tenure-track job I imagined for myself, I got a normal 8-5 job that doesn’t challenge me every minute.

And you know what? I have time to teach myself to cook, to play video games, to watch TV, to read novels, to bike ride with my fiance. I have NO URGE to return to the goals that I had my entire life, or to live the always-busy lifestyle. If someone had told me how much more you enjoy your life when you’re not trying to live up to your potential every second, I would’ve gone ordinary long, long ago.

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Elizabeth

It’s an interesting topic, but I think this post would have been better written if based on the actual study, not a press release. There is very little information in the press release and I’m left with too many questions about the study and its finding. With a slightly shorter lifespan and being only slightly happier, this kind of feels like “much ado about nothing.”

In my experience, people can be happy or unhappy regardless of social status, marital status, kids or not, income or achievements. It’s really up to the individual how they find contentment in their own lives, and we can’t ignore factors like health and religion either.

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Trina

Wow! This really brought the overachievers out to defend their choices!

I’m a reformed overachiever. I have 3 master’s degrees and made an excellent living and was miserable. I took a 25% pay cut for a much less stressful job, and now I’m blissfully happy. 🙂

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RJ

There’s a lot of truth to the article. I have a “Type A” education, but I made a decision to pursue a “Type A/B” career: I’m moderately ambitious in my profession (prof at a decent but not top university), but not so much to the point that the profession’s highest ideals (such as relentless publishing and ladder-climbing) condition and define my life. I’m quite happy being on the “medium track”–balanced publishing, teaching, and service–and I have time for other things in life.

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Joe

I could swear I read somewhere that while a Type-A is more likely to HAVE a heart attack, a Type-A is more likely to RECOVER from a heart attack than a Type-B. I think it was in a management behaviour text at uni.

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Brendan

This post really hit home. My two best friends growing up…and now for that matter…are both doctors. All three of us wanted to be doctors growing up but I had some personal issues on the way to med school and found myself attaining an MBA and becoming a computer programmer instead. I couldn’t be happier with the path of my life. My friends have a mountain of debt, work incredibly long hours, have an incredible amount of work stress in their life, and rarely see their families. I couldn’t make those sacrifices for my career. I’m type B+/A-. I work hard but prioritize my life so that I can earn a good wage, have no debt other than the house (soon to be paid off) and spend a boat load of time with my wife and boys!
Interesting post.

Brendan
themoneybeast.blogspot.com

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bareheadedwoman

B+/A-

~rofl~ love it!

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jim

There are 2 points. 1) ambitious achiever people are only ‘slightly happier’ 2) achievers tend to have lower life expectancy.

Nothing wrong with being ‘slightly’ happier.

#2, they don’t give any indication of how much longer type B people nor do they examine the causes of the mortality. They’d have to weed out the causes and make sure its not just stuff like genetic predisposition to cancer impacting life span or type A’s driving agressively on the road and having 1-2 more motor vehicle fatalities.

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Earn Save Live

As a goal-oriented, ambitious person, I am proud of my achievements and I really enjoy my job. I’m a PhD (not an MD), but I typically work 40 hour weeks, give or take. I used to put in twice as much time, but now I’ve come to not define myself or my worth through my job.

Personally, I would rather earn a great income, be passionate about my career, and stress about student loans than earn a more modest income, hate my job, and stress about my current bills and future retirement. But that’s just me, and I think each person needs to figure out what works for them!

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Sleeping Mom

Everything comes with pros and cons, even high-powered and well-paying positions. I probably could have moved up in my career but that would have meant way more responsibilities that in honestly I didn’t want on my shoulders. I would also be tied much closer to work, leaving little time for my family, which I again didn’t want.

Kids nowadays can be pressured to compete and out-perform their peers for the top schools, but at what cost? I’m all for believing that my toddler can achieve just about anything, but not at the expense of his well-being and happiness. I’d rather that he have free play (which promotes more brain development anyway) than train him to memorize. Ideally I’d love for him to achieve his wildest dreams and truly be up there in the world, so long as he’s absolutely enjoying most of his days doing so.

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Ethiope

This article is so dead on. I don’t usually post, but had to for this one.

I’m a doctor and the realities are nothing like what you imagine before you reach your goals. The process of getting here and the reality of being here both serve to separate you from other people which definitely can lead to unhappiness. Not to mention the financial struggles (which is why I read this blog) which can be all the more frustrating because the more unaware people around you assume you’re rich.

I also agree with one poster who said that perhaps being uphappy can make someone more ambitious. I think in my case I used pushing for this goal as a substitute for dealing with some other issues in my life and it wasn’t until I got here and was miserable that I realized I needed to dig under the surface and look at what was really making me unhappy. The addition of a career that I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much for but don’t really like makes the unhappiness all the worse. Things are better now that I’ve stopped practicing, but it’s taken a long time and A LOT of money to get here (and I’m not even talking about just the student loans).

I think the advise to parents not to emphasize career “success” so much is dead on!!

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olga

Most of the items had been said already, but to add my voice, I, too, am disappointed in the direction some articles take, away from the name of the blog. While I’ll be the last person standing interested in stuff, I disagree with “everyone needs to stop working and go after your dream” concept. Some things just need to be done, there are responsibilities for families. The type A vs type B debate is funny, like catching the phrase “not MUCH MORE happy”, or “outlived”, or simply painting all and every type A person with a broad brash that equated with “I want to be like Johnson” gig. Not every one who strives does it for the sake of money and things and big house. Lots of folks LOVE what they do and want to do more of it. That neurosurgeon might be driven to save more people, or develop new treatment. Some people are extremely unhappy when life slows down (I can’t even ride a bus without knitting a sweater in a process). What’s wrong with having ambitions? The world wouldn’t be where it is. What’s wrong with jobs for the sake of a paycheck and safety net? We would have drowned in garbage without it. In the end, who are the scientists to decide which way we ALL have to be? And by the way, I am a scientist (and a former doctor). And it has to be added (even though as many pointed the article itself is still a mystery) that those studies are done on a certain country? Because in former Socialistic block (and a number of European country) the education was free and didn’t mean getting in debt, as well as pay for the job after getting higher degrees was often lower than blue color jobs at the factories with overtime and levels. As a former pediatrician, my pay was even with one of a teacher, an engineer, a store/supermarket cashier, a cop and a sawing mistress, lower than a nurse or a politician or a gas pipe factory worker.

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Krantcents

I think you have to be very careful here. Typ A personalities or go getters are not satisfied with a just anything. That can mean additional stress or frustration, but you have to learn how to deal with that. I mean find positive ways to deal with frustration.

In my case, I went the entrepreneurial route. I left a prestigious position (CFO) and went out on my own. I was successful and returned to work by doing consulting and now teaching. I now have a choice. I no longer have the stress, but I am still an overachiever who has frustrations. It is good that I learned how to work through that and still accomplish my goals.

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Carla

“On average, the Type Bs outlived the Type As”

By how many years on average, and what were the causes of death? How did the differentiate the As from the Bs? Being a “go getter” doesn’t always mean you’re going to succeed; so what percentage of the people (the As) actually fail short at what they set out to do vs the ones who succeeded? Family background is a whole ‘nother ball of wax. We need info.

The book, The How of Happiness, by Sonja Lyubomirsky, Ph.D. gives you scientific evidence of what makes a person happy and what doesn’t. We all know that material wealth and success does not, but its not the be all end all and as cut and dry as the post would have us believe. Or maybe I’m reading the tone of the post incorrectly…

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chacha1

I don’t usually complain about the articles, because hey, it’s not my site and I always have the choice of reading (or not), but this one was both shallow as to content, and meaningless as to PF applicability.

I think it’s great to have multiple voices and different worldviews, but there’s a big difference between providing useful information and providing useless speculation.

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El Nerdo

I’d like to write a contrary position article but I don’t have a lot of time this morning.

As a kind of shorthand, I’ll note a few sources for my inexistent argument (thank you, Borges, for the device) and mention a few points I’d discuss.

-Studies that show that animals at the bottom of the social hierarchy have higher levels of stress (cortisol).

-Anecdotal evidence of politicians having a longer life. Ex-presidents who survive assassination seem to live forever!

-I know a lot of people who seem to be unable to accomplish anything, they tend to be miserable people. One of them tried to kill himself last month.

-The people on Charlie Rose seem to be happier than the people on Maury Povich.

-The medical profession seems to be one of high investment/high return– the investment alone is just one side of the equation.

-Being a doctor does not qualify one for success, being a good doctor does. There are a lot of incompetent practitioners out there who should be out of business.

-Brave New World’s fetal and childhood programming teaching the Alphas to look down on Betas, teaching Betas to look down on the rest but to think the Alphas have it too hard, etc.– that’s a great metaphor. Everyone has defense mechanisms to make themselves feel better about their lot.

-But yes it’s not a good idea to torment yourself with envy anyway.

-Yes, there is some “success” that comes from neurotic overcompensation but that’s a very narrow definition of success.

-A lot of gifted people suffer psychologically not from intrinsic causes but from a hostile or repressive or destructive environment (“he likes to read, let’s beat him up” “you can’t be a scientist, you’re going to sell falafel like your father” “guys don’t like girls who are smarter than them”, etc. ).

-If there’s a definition of success that works for me, it’s doing the best you can with the tools you have right here right now. And that always brings happiness and satisfaction.

-It’s better for your health to be serene instead of nervous, whether you’re performing neurosurgery or peddling drugs in a corner. But if I were to venture a guess, I’d say petty criminals tend to be a lot more anxious than neurosurgeons.

-idea for an article: the high cost of being a meth dealer in the street. and their shorter lifespans.

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madge

this made me laugh out loud, el nerdo:

“The people on Charlie Rose seem to be happier than the people on Maury Povich.”

truth!

i don’t think we are suffering from too much achievement in this country — it’s more that we’re suffering from people misunderstanding what achievement is. it’s not about looking prosperous, it’s about doing cool stuff!

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El Nerdo

Yes, we’re not suffering from too much achievement–other countries are eating our lunch.

Besides the wrong definition of achievement you mention, we’re actually suffering from too much complacency and a sense of entitlement bred over decades in an educational system that embraces social promotion, hands out 8th place medals, and proclaims that “everybody is a winner”. Well, I wouldn’t just blame the educational system– the parents are complicit demanding that Junior gets straight A’s no matter what.

Just the other day a college student was complaining to someone I know that “everybody deserves the same grade” in their class (even though other students are producing much better work). For shame! How can someone get to the point that they can make such an argument with a straight face?

And then, our people dream not of building great projects or curing mortal illnesses or solving world hunger, but of working 4 hours a week and backpacking around the world in middle age.

We need to start handing green cards to every international student that gets a PhD from our universities or we’re toast. That still won’t solve the fact that too many people think they deserve high pay for shoddy work, but at least we’d manage to keep some sort of technological edge until we can build a robot army 😀

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olga

Is there double-like? That whole “everybody is a winner” drives me nuts! And they say communism was a bad society…

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andrea

Honestly, El Nerdo, start your own blog. I would read it daily. I love your no-nonsense, well thought out replies. Sooo many people in this world are reactionaries (myself included) and your voice is appreciated.

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El Nerdo

Ha ha, thanks, I appreciate the comment. I really enjoy writing, and I love to exchange ideas with people on the internet, but I wouldn’t want to do this on a mandatory basis.

For one thing, I’m already committed to a business I love, so my energy is focused on that at the moment. And then there’s the whole privacy aspect of being a blogger– perhaps I’d do it if I could live hidden like Epicurus recommended, but putting my life on display on the internet as bloggers often do isn’t appealing to me at all.

Anyway, for now I’m happy showing up here as my daily entertainment– I’m learning about personal finance, so I read the blog daily; and seeing how I work mostly from home, which can get lonely at times, this is a kind of office water cooler for me, but only better, because I only take part in conversations that interest me and there are no annoying birthday parties to attend to in the conference room.

But thanks! Really.

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Audrey

Hm, I find it interesting that the article mentioned in the press release is not currently indexed in PubMed, and so I can’t read the article itself. However, the theory of this article (as presented in the press release) is at least somewhat contracticted by other papers, such as “How the rich (and happy) get richer (and happier): relationship of core self-evaluations to trajectories in attaining work success” and “Are health and happiness the product of wisdom? The relationship of general mental ability to educational and occupational attainment, health, and well-being.”

The second article details that a lot of the wellness and well-being is heavily influenced by “unhealthy behaviors”. It’s the counfounding factors that often muddle these studies, which is why I was trying to determine how he accounted for all the other problems and stresses in life. It’s unfortunate that the press release came out prior to the availability of the article.

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Bella

You know what – I’ve come to believe that people who are really Type A – can’t help it. they are perfectionists. Once they trigger the – “I care about this” feeling – they have to push to be the best, create the best etc… Now, being able to master what is in that bucket is how you become succesful and happy. That has nothing to do with ambiiton – but it is a skill that is difficult to learn when you are accustomed to just overacheiving on everything. It’s a LOT harder for me to take things out of the bucket than it should be.
I was a little dissapointed int ehis article as it seemed to lean a little too much toward the ‘sacrifice success for happiness’ rather than focusing on the differences between blind and directed ambition as regards to happiness.

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Nicole

You don’t have to be a perfectionist to be type A. Some of us just like to watch things grow.

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Ash (in US)

Wow. People are a bit sharp today with the comments.

I’ll give a criticism and a compliment:

1) I would have liked to read the published journal article (which it’s not yet, I get that), so maybe holding this article a few weeks until it came out would have made for better debate.

2) I think that this sort of thing is interesting, and would tie well to the general GRS philosophy of “Do what works for you”. I think there’s a lot of potential to tie this into things like “Race to Nowhere” and if the normal stated values of our society are truly worth what we say they are.

There’s a lot that could be covered on this topic.

And I think it would have been funny to have a “Type A or Type B” quiz. There’s a spectrum and people are all over it. I would like to see what the study says about the “middle of the road” types vs solid A/B or extreme A/B.

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Andrew

This is pseudoscience at its worst. It’s tired free-to-be-you-and-me rhetoric circling around and meeting Rick Santorum in an unholy marriage of self-satisfied ignorance.

We need more achievement, not less. We need brillant people battling all the problems that the world is throwing at us. We need focus and commitment even if it makes us uncomfortable.

We already live in a country where far too many people devalue education, believe in nonsense like creationism and angels, and think that hard work is unnecessary. There are Tiger Mothers and Tiger Nations out there laughing at us.

Like many articles not written by JD on this site lately, I’m mystified by this rambling post. Again, seems like an attempt to fill up space and get paid for writing a silly article.

And let’s keep in mind that, at least according to this study, the ambitious people were happier. Nor were we told what “longevity” means. Maybe the less ambitious people only lived 2 months or 6 months longer, on average.

I’d much rather be ambitious and accomplished and contributing something to the world that matters and that makes it a better place for my children (all while apparently being happier along the way) if it only means theoretically sacrificing some tiny period of time (on average) in longevity.

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Tyler Karaszewski

That’s because the entire thing is speculative. The whole post is based not on an actual journal article, but on a press release announcing a journal article that isn’t actually available yet. This is why we never see how big the “slightly negative impact on longevity” actually is: they want you to read the journal article when it comes out. The whole post is essentially like writing a movie review based on the trailer.

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Nicole

I’m not sure people actually have much choice to be ambitious or not. Sure you could try cognitive restructuring, but at what price?

I completely agree. The whole time I was reading this article, I kept thinking in the back of my head, “It’s not a choice. It’s who you are.”

I hate the Type A/B labels, because they’re far too reductive, but someone who is truly “type A” will always be that way, whether it means they die young are not. They can’t live any other way.

BTW, if you have to ask yourself if you are one of those people, then you’re not.

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Bella

Like, Like, Like – there is no such thing as a ‘reformed’ Type A

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Jacq

Yeah, I pretty much agree with Nicole too. I don’t know though, sometimes some things happen as you get older to change your perspective and help you become a little more balanced. Friends and family die young, you give your all to a job and it doesn’t seem to matter in the end, your kids get upset that they don’t see enough of you…

But for the most part, I’d rather be constantly striving towards something since I get neurotic and depressed when I’m not.

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Nicole

There’s more to life to watch grow than just a job! There’s a huge wonderful world out there to make better. I also like being busy and get unhappy when I’m not.

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Emily

Totally agree with Nicole. You are who you are.

I find less stress and more happiness when my life is balanced (work, friends, relationship, me-time, family, etc) BUT I still approach all of my activities with “ambition”. I don’t know how to do things halfway. I am crazy busy all the time (which is the way I like it). But as long as one thing doesn’t take over my life I feel pretty satisfied. The worst I have ever felt was when I wasn’t highly ambitious at work (because I hated my job). Not living up to who I was actually took over the rest of my life, and I was unable to focus on ANY part of my life because I was so unhappy.

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Tori Holden

Unfortunately, this can’t be viewed as an accurate depiction of the difference between over achievers and others. Not everyone has had the same opportunities in life, and those that didn’t over achieve may have been able to do so otherwise.

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babysteps

For me, it all comes down to ‘know thyself’ – some folks desire & thrive on high-stress or high-commitment jobs. Others are much happier with a slower, calmer and possibly less $ on hand lifestyle. What’s works for me may not be right for you, may actually destroy some amount of happiness for you.

I do *almost* remember a study that came out 25 or 30 years ago (mid 1980s) that had tracked folks who had been high achievers in school. I don’t remember if this was high school, standardized test, or college-based for the ‘high achiever’ label.

After many years (again, I don’t remember the details but I always think of it as being at least 15 yrs later), they went back to the same group and asked what area of their life gave them the most satisfaction. Family was the #1 answer, career was not (again, I’ve lost the details, career certainly could have been #2).

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John | Married (with Debt)

I was watching a tv drama recently and one of the characters said:

The world needs less ambition and more dignity.

I agree.

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bareheadedwoman

I was watching a mad men episode recently when an old career executive secretary died at her desk and in discussing the obit, the firm’s oldest partner said (paraphrased):

She was born in a barn in 1898 and died on the 37th floor [in 1964] of a Manhattan high-rise; she was an astronaut.

It’s true. Lot’s of astronauts of a different color out there. (I think I read somewhere that the episode was based on a true NYT obit…the maddics will have to help me out.)

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Golfing Girl

Ironically, people get so excited when I tell them I’m a golf instructor, but the reality is that I make very little and have no benefits. When I was making big bucks and great benefits no one ever said, “Wow, you’re a project manager for a financial institution?!?!”
🙂

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Emmy

Haha, sometimes people get so excited when I tell them I’m a baker. So now that I’m in school earning my bachelor’s in “real college” they’re all like, “Oh, why?” I don’t have the heart to tell them my job offers no benefits and has low pay, while you deal with crazy restaurant owners and working conditions that lead to a bad back, sore feet and sad claw-like hands from repetitive motions. Like I would EVER want to leave pastry, jeez!

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Poor Student

I agree with the premise of the article, and the research was interesting, but there are other ways to define success than being a neurosurgeon.

The term overachiever implies that they will be less happy because of all the things that go with achieving that much. Is the salary worth all the stress of that schooling?

I think somebody who becomes the best grocery store manager by working hard is successful, and they do not need all the schooling, work a lot less than a surgeon, even if they work more than the typical 40/week.

While I would not be willing to put in the effort to be a neurosurgeon I do not think that makes me unambitious. One can have ambitions and be incredibly happy. It is often those very same ambitions and the fruits of the labour resulting from that ambition that brings the greatest joy.

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Joe D.

I’ve always felt more ambitious as a father, husband, and upholder of Italian American traditions taught to me by others, rather than anything “career” related. There’s a slight twinge of guilt that goes with that. Thanks for an article that reflects it may not be a bad way to be.

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Jane

Whatever you do with your life, I think it’s important to not derive your sense of self or value entirely from what you do or accomplish. I’m not saying you can’t find satisfaction in achieving, but if that’s what defines you, what will happen if all that ends suddenly? Or how will you feel later in life when your body inevitably slows down?

For years I was someone who was pretending to be an achiever and was surrounded by people who actually were ones. It was miserable. It took me a long time to realize that I just didn’t care enough to pursue a career in academia. My husband and I both are people who find some satisfaction in work, but to be honest, mostly it’s for the paycheck. And I’m just fine with that.

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MikeTheRed

One thing I don’t feel the story addresses is the idea that perhaps Type A people need to aim high to be happy period. I know that when I have been in roles that did not provide significant challenge, opportunity for rapid growth, and a strong sense of ownership in my work, I’ve been far less happy.

I’ve always been wired to “own” my work. When I don’t own it, I’m far far less satisfied. I’ve always been happiest when I’m doing work that meets my Type A needs. I may not be dramatically *more* happy than a Type B, but if I tried to live a Type B lifestyle, I’d be dramatically LESS happy.

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Nicole

Me too.

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Maggie@SquarePennies

You nailed it.

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DB

Penelope Trunk’s recent post on “strivers” (http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2012/02/14/the-real-value-of-diversity/) is a really interesting, well-researched commentary on this issue. She makes the critical point that what we are here calling “Type A” and “Type B” are very much dependent on your location – and the related point that a lot of the top “strivers” have made a choice not to focus on happiness.

For example – I personally chose to live in the DC Metro Area because that is the right level of “striving” for me. However, living in New York City would drive me crazy – it is too competitive for me. Similarly, living in a more laid-back town wouldn’t work for me either (I have tried it, and it was fun while in college but not good long term). My husband, who in the DC Metro Area appears to be a “Type B,” frequently comes back from visiting friends in Madison, WI and remarks that out there, he is a solid Type A. So, it’s really important to consider who your reference group is.

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bareheadedwoman

yeah, you hit it on the head.

In brooklyn, my natural living pace is about 10 minutes behind everyone else and I love it because there is always something new and different around every corner. I managed to hold my own in the high dollar, high competition Manhattan world for 10 years or so but, like the article said, the toll of operating on that level totally screwed with things that were important to me like meditation, study, nature, community roots–so i’ve found a nice personal balance in brooklyn.

but when I go home to Down East North Carolina, I’m the friggin’ Flash.

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Catherine

April, this article would have been so much more interesting if you had not taken the Type B route of just writing about one academic research paper. What if a Type A had written the article? That writer might have tried to find research with opposing viewpoints or, god forbid, interviewed a real live academic or psychologist for their take on happiness. Then your readers might have had something real to chew on rather than the tired old cliche about brain surgeons. April, you are a good writer who can do better.

That said, Judge seems to say that ambitious people are happier than the unambitious. As for longevity, I would rather live a full life that ends a few years early than to stick around so long that I end up eating oatmeal in a nursing home. Quality over quantity for me. And finally, please don’t equate degrees with ambition. Gates, Jobs and Zuckerberg didn’t bother to finish their undergraduate degrees.

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Jane

I agree with your post overall, although I don’t like the derogatory picture you paint of the toothless nursing home dweller eating oatmeal. Call me crazy, but I still think those people bring value to society, even though they are no longer defined as productive. It’s a pervasive sense of equating value to productivity in our society that makes us think of their lives as meaningless.

Moreover, Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg are the exception not the rule. We can’t look to them to derive conclusions about the value (or lack thereof) of formal education.

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catherine

Jane, apologies if I sounded derogatory. I got my mother’s room wired for the internet when she went into a nursing home seven years ago, and she is still going strong on her laptop. Alas, I have had seven years of watching people who’s bodies have outlasted their minds. I can’t help thinking they’d be better off dead, though of course that is not my decision to make.

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Adam P

My quest for self improvement makes me happy. The day I quit striving to be “the best me I can be” is the day I stop living and start dying.

Worried about living a longer life? Get regular exercise, maintain strong bonds with your family/friends/community, and don’t overindulge in food or drink. And for heaven’s sake, don’t smoke. The rest is genetics and you can’t stop that.

If you do pop your clogs a year or two earlier, well, at least if you’re successful you can retire younger and not have to eat cat food in your retirement years.

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Bridget

Hopefully I can just hit a nice balance between ambition and laziness then =\

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Marianne

I was an overachieving kid and it was very stressful. So stressful that I had somewhat of a nervous breakdown as a teenager, dropped out of school and went down a completely different path than anyone would have ever expected. You get used to having to be the best at stuff and there is so much pressure. The pressure isn’t just self inflicted either. People get all excited if you screw up and feel the need to point it out etc. Also, everyone expects big things from you. People always wanted to know if I would be a doctor or a lawyer when I grew up. There was so much pressure I just couldn’t take it. I didn’t want to be any of those things.

Because of my personality, I am still an over-achiever and it’s lonely. People don’t like other people to ‘show them up’. They don’t understand that it has nothing to do with them- I just need to do my best and unfortunately get a lot of my self worth from how hard I work and what I’m able to achieve. Others find that threatening.

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John in Denver

@Marianne – I completely agree. Your friends feel threatened, start to resent, and then you are isolated. My personality is that I am simply trying to do my best at everything I come across. For me it is hard to understand the rationale for not trying to do your best and pushing yourself. I know of no other worthy macro goal.

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Sharon

Time to look for new friends, then!

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bareheadedwoman

always feeling the need to do your best is not necessarily only a type A trait. Plenty of type B’s take great pride in doing the best work at the level they camp on.

I have two friends, a female nurse and a male paralegal. Both constantly field various questions as in, you are too smart to be a nurse/paralegal…you are wasting your talents, why don’t you become a doctor/lawyer?

to which they invariably answer that their goal and pride is in being the best nurse and paralegal in existence…and neither actually WANTED to be the other. A doctor or lawyer was a different animal entirely and not a level “higher”–payscale not withstanding.

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SmartMoneyHelp

I’ve been a long time over achiever. The funny thing is most of my friends have not been. They usually tend to be the opposite. I think that provides me with an outlet to relax.

For a long time I’ve heard people saying that I don’t need to do so much. However I’m happier when I’m accomplishing a lot. I’ve tried taking it easy and I can only handle it for a short amount of time.

I’ve struck a better balance over the years but I never let go of high achievements. I’ve decided to not be as vocal about my achievements so I don’t flak for doing them. It’s funny that there are a lot of people who want to convince you that you will be happier if you do less. For me that’s simply not true. It’s been frustrating trying to prove that to people. So I’ve come to a point where I don’t feel that I need to prove that, I just keep quite.

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Kraig @ Young, Cheap Living

I’ll give you credit for what is probably the first story I’ve ever read that questions whether it’s worth it to achieve. That being said, I think I’m still convinced that achieving is better than not, although I see both sides a little more clearly now.

Without achieving, what is life, really? Achieving doesn’t have to mean corporate or career success. It can mean family success, relational success or working toward something that you really believe in.

The opposite, sitting on your butt just because you’re “laid back”, in my experience, can put you down a path to feeling sorry for yourself. Even if achieving does nothing other than keep you excited, passionate and focused on something you care about, I’d say it’s worth it.

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Megan

Bingo.

I have known a few people in life who settled for “whatever.” It’s depressing to talk to them.

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bareheadedwoman

i know a (more than a) few people who cannot find satisfaction in anything as long as there is a corner on the horizon. Nothing is good enough, everything must be bigger, better, greater, more…

i find such people exhausting.

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Brenton

I laughed when I read your comment, but as a definite “Type B” personality, Ill caution you on confusing a type b with a bum or a loser, etc…

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Peter

I’ll take an ambitious and successful career for a happier, albeit slightly shorter, life.

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chacha1

me too. long lifespan is overrated. just ask my DH … he makes a very good living helping old rich people retain the ability to walk across the room.

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Will

It’s nothing to do with over-achieving, career success or social standing. It simply relates to the fact that as a race, we are useless at spending money on the things that actually increase our happiness, instead wasting it on possessions and appearances.

Possessions and appearances help make me happy. I don’t know why this blog is still called Get Rich Slowly. It should be called how to be a hippie and rag on people who value ‘stuff.’

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andrea

Isn’t JD’s theme “do what works for you”? Why so defensive? Is this an empirically done, peer reviewed, scientific study? And if it is, who cares? 9 out of 10 dentist recommend… but we cherry picked those 10 dentist. Data can be skewed.

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John R

Who said I was defensive? I just liked this site better when it was more focused on finance. JD’s theme may be ‘do what works for you’ but all of the posts seem to be about how trying to achieve career success is terrible and being a blogger who lives in a tiny space with no stuff is great. I have no problem if you don’t like having lots of things but its not evil. It seems more like the theme is do what works for you except if you like to try to get ahead and spend money on things you will die miserable at a young age.

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Will

I’d wager that they don’t, and I’m guessing you haven’t read the paper I linked to.

Possessions and appearances do not (in themselves) make you happy. Possessions and appearances CAN enable you to have experiences which make you happy but the items themselves do not.

The unfortunate trap here is that the human mind tends to attribute the positive feelings to the item, rather than the action. This leads us to search for more objects when we want to feel happy, rather than getting the full value out of what we already have.

When people have more money, they tend to buy more things and more expensive things but they don’t increase the amount of things they do which make them happy.

This is the reason for the typical “money can’t buy you happiness” attitude espoused by this article but (fortunately) it is a fallacy.

Money can buy you happiness, but only if you spend it on the things that matter (to you) and don’t get sucked in to the trap of wasting it on things that don’t.

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CD2

Ha! you are DEEPLY underestimating the misery of being a neurosurgeon. Like I tell everyone who wants to “be a doctor”- you don’t go into this for the money and prestige. You have to have a passionate love of the profession to make this worth it. Neurosurgeons are widely known in the medical community to be the biggest a-holes to work with and here are some reasons why:

– you have to be in the top 1% or so of medical students in the nation to match into a neurosurgery residency position. It is routinely the most competitive speciality to match in along with plastics, orthopedic surgery and dermatology. That means you have to devote untold hours of your mid twenties to studying and reading to impress attendings. As one ortho resident put it his first year, “I had to break up with my girlfriend the first week so I could get a 260 on Step 1 (the first qualifying test taken after your second year that more or less determines what you can match into). Also, you are now anywhere from 100-300K in debt. a private medical school is about 50K a year, public can be about 20K. Added to your college debt, it ain’t pretty

– you will have very little control over where you match in a speciality as competitive as neurosurgery. Most programs take 1-2 residents a year out of hundreds of applicants. your girlfriend may love you a lot and have settled on seeing you once every 2-3 weeks for 3 days during medical school, but is she going to agree to move to iowa if that’s the only place you get a spot on match day? the match isn’t negotiable, you go where the system matches you. you can’t “trade” for a better offer where she can find a job or something. if you let go of the spot you are offered, your career in neurosurgery is finished

– 60 hours a week is a fantasy. we finally now have rules that say we can’t work more than 80 hours a week as residents (and no more than 16 in a row as interns, and keep in mind it has to “average” 80 a week, so you may work 120 then get a weekend the next week) but these are very poorly enforced in the competitive surgical residencies because their work doesn’t fit the schedule well. they regularly work 120+ a week. every week. for 7 years. even when you are home, you are often on home call. that means if a head bleed requiring surgery comes in a 2 am, yep- you’re getting called. that doesn’t leave much room for a life or social network. when you are not at work, you are reading your brains out so you don’t kill anyone. oh, and you are making about 40-50K a year when your lawyer friend is taking home 150K after 3 years out. your girlfriend is less happy with you now.

– neurosurgery is a 7 year residency and a fellowship is often expected (another 1-2 years depending on research and program) that’s 12 years of POST-graduate education. You are now almost 40

– neurosurgeons are the most sued doctors in the profession. Your patients are often very sick and have bad outcomes purely because of their disease process. many will die. some will have complications no matter how perfect of a surgeon you are. congratulations, your patient just thanked you with a 1 million dollar lawsuit over their back pain that was made worse by surgery even though you explained the risks to them extensively.

That being said, for those who love it, it’s a wonderful profession. but no, just “being a neurosurgeon” won’t lead to happiness.

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Marilyn

Additionally, you’d never met a neurosurgeon at a party since they are probably on trauma call.

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Annelise

What a fascinating insight! (I’m not being sarcastic). Thank you.

In general, I agree with this article. I think there are plenty of miserable “successful” people who have no life outside of work and are too tired or time-poor to enjoy the things they can buy with their earnings. You have to strike a balance between fulfilling your potential, using your talents, and enjoying life and having a good family or relationship. Truly successful people are the ones who might not be the best looking, the richest or the most powerful, but who are just so darned content with themselves and their lives, yet don’t “think small” or limit themselves either.

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CD2

One point that I think it’s important to make though- being Type A (a pretty meaningless term to me… I think overachievers come in a lot of personality types. Let’s not confuse Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder with success) doesn’t mean that you are sacrificing your family/relationship life for work- quite the opposite. Doctor-Doctor marriages, which you might think are very unhappy since they are both working all the time, are actually very successful. They have about a 10% divorce rate and high marital satisfaction scores. Why? Most people who work hard at work, work hard at home too. They work at their marriages instead of giving up on them and develop excellent coping skills through a very demanding profession. It’s a mistake to think that being “relaxed” will necessarily make other parts of your life more interesting. The best doctors I know are also the most interesting! One was in the Olympics, one was a professional gymnist, one made a sold a multi-million dollar business in college, one speaks 5 languages. Overachievers are not programmed robots, they are often the most interesting people in the room. They are the reason I love this profession- they always push me to know and try more and get out of my comfort zone. They don’t rest on their achievements but continually have the energy and enthusiasm to seek out new challenges.

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Annelise

Well, the second part of my comment wasn’t really about doctors in particular. I often get a really soulless vibe from overachievers (not necessarily the same thing as successful people). They’re kind of dead behind the eyes, and their “achievements” are usually totally unimpressive or uninteresting to anyone outside their field. Those Winkelvoss twins who sued the Facebook founders would be a good example.

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Maggie@SquarePennies

You sort of defined the attributes of highly intelligent people. Of course there are geniuses who are also couch potatoes, but not many.

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Another Kate

Re: the comment immediately above about highly intelligent people, as someone who works in higher ed, I’d say that’s not entirely true. We’ve found that sometimes it’s the folks who are middling in terms of test scores and grades who work much harder than the highly intelligent people. A high IQ doesn’t equal success.

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bareheadedwoman

most “classic underachievers” ARE in the higher IQ classes…by definition that IS a classic underachiever…

has the brains, but not the ambition, and spends a lifetime battling people who want them to achieve things that they have no personal interest in “just because they can” and “just to get rich and retire early”.

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Megan

That’s such an insightful post – thank you!

I’m curious about the competitive field for dermatology. I have a few theories as to why it’s competitive, but I’d love to hear your take.

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CD2

Oh, that’s easy to answer. It’s overwhelmingly female. why derm?

1. TIME. the hours are EASY. even in residency they have a sweet schedule. it’s just 4 years. Sure, it’s often around 60-80 hours a week, but they don’t take nearly as much call and they can have a fairly normal life. you rarely take call as an attending and can work very reasonable hours with flexibility.

2. MONEY. insurance (especially medicare and medicaid) rarely covers derm procedures and treatments. that means everything is paid cash in hand out of pocket. they make 600-800K a year working 9-5 no weekends and it’s all upfront without all of the hassle. poor people who don’t pay bills don’t frequent dermatologists nearly as much. neither do people with crappy insurance that doesn’t even cover the cost of your visit. plus, you add a nice botox clinic on the side or something and you can make bank.

3. it’s hard, but in a different way. there is a lot to know, but there are only 1-2 real derm emergencies and most stuff will not kill people. that means no 2 am phone calls. much lower stress level. the exam is easy- it’s hard to lie about a rash. it is what it is. no complex history taking, lying, manipulation, drug addiction.. sigh. it’s hard not to be jealous.

I have 14 pretty close friends who are drs. All the female ones are in derm.

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CD2

Honestly, it’s kind of a joke amongst older doctors who went into medicine when everyone wanted to be a surgeon or an internist. One told me just the other day “Why with all of the medical brainpower concentrated in dermatology you would think they would have managed to cure melanoma by now for goodness sake!” They feel that we are “wasting” the best medical minds of our generation on skin rashes. I kind of agree with him though- if the number of medical superstars who are now in derm don’t cure melanoma in 20 years (pretty much the ONE deadly cancer they have to research) it just can’t be done! 🙂

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anon

I’m not sure I understand the point of this article. My husband and I are highly successful. We went to top schools (undergrad and grad), work at organizations you have heard of, and make a very comfortable living in a high-cost of living area. We love our jobs and careers. At the same time, we are happily married, have friends, family, and hobbies. We have numerous friends our age, all “overachievers,” in the same position. They – like us – all worked very, very hard and were very ambitious to get where they are.

Is this article trying to tell me that I’m secretly unhappy? That I have anxiety? Really??

Or is this article trying to make someone who isn’t successful feel better by telling them that all successful people are miserable?

If it’s the latter, then that’s not a way to get rich slowly, regardless of your definition of “rich.”

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Scott

Yes, but you’re only “slightly” happier than your Type B counterpart!

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DaftShadow

Your comment hits on the core of what is “wrong” with the philosophy espoused in the original post: Money and Finances are mostly about security and freedom, not happiness.

Happiness is about Attitude. It stems from a person’s direct choice of thoughts, how they react to experiences, how they perceive, how they choose to act and react.

One finds it “easier” to act or perceive or think in certain ways when they have the security of finances backing them up, but past a certain point (yes, it’s a power curve), the difference in minimal. Past a certain point, happiness is far more about things like JD’s post after this one: chasing what you love, and focusing on it.

I don’t think that the “purpose of life” is to “maximize happiness”. I’m not sure I would ever want to live that life. Good on you for figuring out what you want yours to look like.

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Russ

“When compared with a control group of laid-back, Type B people, the high achievers weren’t much happier.”

Not ‘much’ happier? That suggests they were still happier though, right?

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Jonathan

Haha, I was wondering about that too – the cost of being ambitious is that you won’t be much happier than if you weren’t? (the lifespan thing is obviously a factor too but for a lot of reasons I feel it’s less important).

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imelda

Yeah, this whole discussion is baffling. The only tradeoff mentioned by the study is “somewhat shorter lives,” which could mean anything.

Let’s see, I can choose between

a) A life full of achievement and happiness, or

b) A slightly longer life where I am less happy and don’t accomplish much.

Hmmm, tough choice……

Seriously, unless we’re talking a 5 or 10 year difference in lifespan, this study seems to argue in FAVOR of being ambitious.

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K

What’s with all the “classist” and “anti success” stories lately?

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April Dykman

This wasn’t meant to be anti-success at all! I think these two sentences from my article summarize the main point:

“That’s not to say that people shouldn’t be ambitious — the world needs brain surgeons! But this study shows that, as with many things that might appear to be ideal, there’s a tradeoff.”

We often equate financial or career success with happiness, and this study indicates that’s not true. The point is that you SHOULD become a brain surgeon if it’s your calling, but don’t expect that career success will make you happy. There are other factors that have a stronger effect on happiness.

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K

I guess let me reword now that I am more awake- what’s with all the “work life balance” stories lately?

It think it’s a overworked topic.

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bareheadedwoman

GRS’s original focus was to get rich slowly by finding the right philosophical balance in monetary habits that would enable you to build wealth thoughtfully….

Not, how to get rich, even if slowly.

The former calls for life/balance thought and discussion hence life/balance articles.

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Joseph

I truly agree with Pamela. If our career choice is based on what we love to do rather than what will pay more, there is more satisfaction derived than frustrations.

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Meghan

The article doesn’t mention any distinction between doing what you love and doing something because it’s financially lucrative. Someone can be ambitious at doing what they love and still have the stresses that April talks about.

I decided to go into a field for love rather than money. Fast forward more than a decade later, I’m working on my PhD in my field. And while I’ve definitely experienced at this point some degree of success (three degrees in my field, fellowships, recognition, blah, blah, blah…) there’s also been the costs: the relationships I ended to move for my bachelor’s and then my master’s, the endless work, little time for friends/hobbies/fun, constant doubt (am I really cut out to do this?), you get the point.

And when I finish, I may or may not be able to get a tenure track job, or a job as a curator in a museum. So I’m definitely not in this for the money.

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Pamela

Hear, hear. If your work is your calling–if you truly love it, you are very, very lucky. But you still have to tend to other parts of your life, like your family, your friends, and your health. Being a Type A workaholic can be a lonely road to travel.

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sarah

Since correlation doesn’t imply causation, it might also be possible that people are ambitious BECAUSE they aren’t happy. If you don’t feel satisfied that may be reason to keep pushing.

In my experience (in several fields) the most successful employees are usually very anxious people in general. Anxiety can fuel perfectionism, timeliness, etc., but it still isn’t good for your happiness or lifespan.

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April Dykman

I hope they follow this with a study that looks at the possible causes for shorter lifespans among type As. And if they are ambitious because they aren’t happy, and Judge tracked people who were ambitious even as a child, does that mean they weren’t happy as kids?

When I started practicing yoga and quit my day job to write full-time, I became much more of a type B, probably because I was happier and less anxious.

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KS

And here yoga makes me more anxious – I never liked it, but felt compelled to like it because “it’ll make you less stressed”. To each their own!

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CgK

@April: I think you’re predisposed to disliking type A’s. Per your post (and I read the actual article about type A’s), type A’s are actually a bit HAPPIER than others. I’m not sure why you’re wondering about unhappiness, when the study doesn’t yield that result. Speaking as a former type A, I also suspect the SLIGHTLY shorter lifespan is due to not getting enough rest. I, and other type A’s I know, have close families and friends, have fun, have job satisfaction, etc.

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imelda

Thank you! This whole thread, Sarah’s comment included, misses the point of the study.

Ambitious people are HAPPIER than unambitious folks. Despite the different spin given by the press release, that was the result of the study.

As for the shorter lives, there are a myriad of possible reasons. Stress probably is one of them. But I think that many people would choose to live a slightly shorter life, if it meant they were happier and successful.

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Dogs or Dollars

I agree with the anxiety/success relationship. I know I’ve always been most successful when I was hyperfocused and worried about getting my job right, learning the ins and outs, being self sufficient, etc. Successful at work, and miserable with my work life balance.

Now that Im much more laid back about my job, Im happier with my home life, and no longer climbing that ladder.

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Chase

Balance in life is definitely difficult to achieve but I certainly won’t be putting any of my ambition away!

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