9:17 — Nice night for the Rockets: Jeremy Lamb, Royce White and Terrence Jones (who fell about five spots too far to no. 18).5 Meanwhile, we have our first trade: Dallas traded Zeller to Cleveland for picks 24, 32 and 33. That means the Cavs just parlayed four top-33 picks (including the no. 4 overall) into a sixth man and a backup center, winning this year's Baxter Burgundy Award for the team that pooped in the fridge and ate a whole wheel of cheese, only you can't be mad at them because it was kind of amazing.

A couple people brought up the "it takes two teams to trade down" point, which is true. However, you'll never know the real bottom line offers from other teams unless you take the clear best value player (Robinson), emphasize that you're fine keeping him if necessary, then resume negotiating. Unless they absolutely hated Robinson (and they're even bigger morons if they did), the difference in draft value between him and Waiters was big enough that you have to take that risk. Same thing last year with Thompson. And if you have to end up keeping him, whatever. He's a great prospect and the draft is a crapshoot anyway. Not worth what was essentially a sacrifice of 5-6 draft spots, which is huge in the NBA top ten.

This isn't football where you'd be stuck with two quarterbacks and the other teams know you have to make a deal. It's a bad basketball team that's years away from anything meaningful. Just a total debacle before you even get into the actual basketball part of it.

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

At least I cite actual events that happened and try to draw conclusions, instead of inventing guarantees and/or predraft trades.

And IMO, the truth sits somewhere in the middle. I mean, you know Gilbert and Grant got final say on what was actually written. I believe the advanced stats system (that has failed for the vast majority of nearly a decade) was the driving point behind the pick. That said, I still am in shock about the never working him out (especially after preaching about the importance of interviews and workouts last year) when they did in fact never speak to him. Your assistant GM watching him practice for three days and a few games doesn't really constitute shit (most every player on every board is watched this much). And the did in fact never, ever speak to the kid.

IMO, where the panic move may have come in was a late in the process decision to ONLY draft a wing which led to a readjustment to the board.

9:17 — Nice night for the Rockets: Jeremy Lamb, Royce White and Terrence Jones (who fell about five spots too far to no. 18).5 Meanwhile, we have our first trade: Dallas traded Zeller to Cleveland for picks 24, 32 and 33. That means the Cavs just parlayed four top-33 picks (including the no. 4 overall) into a sixth man and a backup center, winning this year's Baxter Burgundy Award for the team that pooped in the fridge and ate a whole wheel of cheese, only you can't be mad at them because it was kind of amazing.

Putting shit written by that piece of shit has-been on a page where I am going to see it is grounds for bannishment to hell.

Also, nice night for the Rockets? They now have about six 6'9" SF/PFs on that roster.

Morey has collected as many 6'9" PFs in a single year as Grant has drafted over the last ten. Both are obsessed with them though.

Simmons will go to any length to try and make Morey look like a competant GM (I mean that's how Simmons holds down a spot on the main panel at the SLOAN sports analytics conference afterall!) when in reality Morey has done about a meh a job as any GM ever.

Byron Scott knows nothing about what it takes to be a successful 2 in the Association.

See, that's what sucks me in Pros. The afterglow spin. I read Scott fawning over this kid and I could get sucekd in, but I als swear I recall Coach Lucas being interviewd after we drafted Diop andhe was all smiles, too. But I *know* this is bull crap. Just like when I watch TT I see how F'n limited kid is in lack of diecernable skill set.

On Friday, Coach Byron Scott of the Cleveland Cavs appeared on the Kory and Bams show to discuss the draft. "To tell you the truth, I was kind of disappointed. I thought we had a great chance to move up to get Beal out of Florida. Turns out we couldn't make the move so we got some other kid who plays the same position. Everything I've read about him makes me pretty confident he won't completely suck. I guess the guys in Phoenix say he's pretty good."

Well, jb, if it makes you feel any better, I heard somewhere that Sam Amick is well-connected and he said both Sacramento at #5 and Golden State at #7 were ready to draft Waiters. And he didn't work out for them, either.

So even if Scott is just kissing ass by pretending to like the player, it appears the Cavs weren't the only team that was high on him. I just don't get how a player that was seen as a late lottery pick mysteriously vaulted into the 4-7 range without working out or doing anything. Does that happen a lot?

But I doubt Scott risks making a fool of himself by comparing Waiters to Wade if he doesn't buy it. He could easily have made a generic positive comment like, "He's a tough kid with a lot of upside."

As for the last minute workout request, the Cavs probably thought Waiters might change his mind if he thought he could get picked at #4. Doesn't hurt to ask, right? He said no but the Cavs didn't need a workout to make their decision.

The Windy column was a great read. According to him there was no consideration of drafting Robinson at all. So Eeyore's plan to take Robinson at #4, then trade the rest of the picks to some other team for something other than a center never made it into the mix. Too bad. Sounds like a great draft plan.

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.

Just because Waiters may play the same style as Wade, does not make him Wade.

And did you really expect him to come right out and say "Oh I liked Robinson (or Barnes, or whoever) a lot better than Waiters. But Grant picked him, so I'll try to make the best of a crappy situation"?

Maybe Scott really does like the pick. Maybe he thinks Waiters can live up to the almighty analytics. But that doesn't make this a good pick with what was on the board.

If this kid ends up being the best of the players mentioned as who we should have picked (Robinson, Barnes, maybe a couple others), then I will gladly eat crow. Just like I said I'd eat crow last year if TT turned out to be a good pick. But again, I don't think I'll end up eating that crow. I hope I do, I just doubt it.

Prosecutor wrote:Well, jb, if it makes you feel any better, I heard somewhere that Sam Amick is well-connected and he said both Sacramento at #5 and Golden State at #7 were ready to draft Waiters. And he didn't work out for them, either.

He also reported both picks being shopped like mad. The Kings were willing to settle on Waiters if T-Rob (their real target, as him and Cousins is terrifying) was gone and they couldn't get an acceptable package.

YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.

YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.

Heh. When I think "great basketball mind", Skip Bayless is the first one I think of. Followed closely by Screamin' A.

Zeller ain't gonna be great. He'll never be under consideration for an all-star team. But he'll be serviceable. Limited, but solid. The Cavs could have done a lot worse with that one.

Prosecutor wrote:Well, jb, if it makes you feel any better, I heard somewhere that Sam Amick is well-connected and he said both Sacramento at #5 and Golden State at #7 were ready to draft Waiters. And he didn't work out for them, either.

Because Sacromento and Golden State are two teams you really want to emulate.

Bayless and Stephen A are complete dickheads there is no doubt. I didn't say I liked or respected them in any way, just interesting that Bayless was saying Leonard was a bad pick because he was a white American center. Isn't that getting pretty near Jimmy the Greek territory?

Someone today asked Stephen A why he liked Beal so much and he couldn't even say...he went on to say some shit about respecting Billy Donnovan and Florida and that he saw some Florida games this year. Couldn't comment on Beal's skills or ability. Typical of those 2.

YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.

Mike, Mike, Screamin A and Bayless in the same day.

Good for you!

Next I'm going to read some articles from Mary K Cabot and then maybe visit RCF.

YahooFanChicago wrote:Bayless and Stephen A are complete dickheads there is no doubt. I didn't say I liked or respected them in any way, just interesting that Bayless was saying Leonard was a bad pick because he was a white American center. Isn't that getting pretty near Jimmy the Greek territory?

Someone today asked Stephen A why he liked Beal so much and he couldn't even say...he went on to say some shit about respecting Billy Donnovan and Florida and that he saw some Florida games this year. Couldn't comment on Beal's skills or ability. Typical of those 2.

Honestly I don't know how long it's been since I've watched that show. There's dumb, there's mind-numbing dumb, and then there's that. But I did watch Mark Cuban eviscerate Bayless, and I have no doubt he could do the same to Screamin A. Cuban actually took the time to figure out what the eff he was talking about before he went on the show, and Skip never bothered. Which makes it hilarious when ESPN trots out these dumbasses as "experts".

YahooFanChicago wrote:Bayless and Stephen A are complete dickheads there is no doubt. I didn't say I liked or respected them in any way, just interesting that Bayless was saying Leonard was a bad pick because he was a white American center. Isn't that getting pretty near Jimmy the Greek territory?

Someone today asked Stephen A why he liked Beal so much and he couldn't even say...he went on to say some shit about respecting Billy Donnovan and Florida and that he saw some Florida games this year. Couldn't comment on Beal's skills or ability. Typical of those 2.

Honestly I don't know how long it's been since I've watched that show. There's dumb, there's mind-numbing dumb, and then there's that. But I did watch Mark Cuban eviscerate Bayless, and I have no doubt he could do the same to Screamin A. Cuban actually took the time to figure out what the eff he was talking about before he went on the show, and Skip never bothered. Which makes it hilarious when ESPN trots out these dumbasses as "experts".

That is the only tme I've actually seen that shitshow. It was pretty funny.

Prosecutor wrote:Well, jb, if it makes you feel any better, I heard somewhere that Sam Amick is well-connected and he said both Sacramento at #5 and Golden State at #7 were ready to draft Waiters. And he didn't work out for them, either.

Because Sacromento and Golden State are two teams you really want to emulate.

Didn't say you want to emulate anybody. I was just saying that before we accept the theory that Waiters was a late lottery (10-14) talent that the Cavs somehow managed to convince themselves was worth the #4 pick while the rest of the league howled with derision, no less an authority than Sam Amick said he would have gone #5 if the Cavs had taken Robinson. And worse case was #7 to Golden State. Amick says either of those teams would have taken him even without a private workout.

I just think the national press didn't realize how highly this kid was thought of. It's like the guy who went #6, Lillard. He seemed to come out of nowhere in the last few days. Did his stock suddenly rise for no reason or was the press just late in realizing how highly he was rated?

Does it reaaly matter. After all Waiters has the same agent that Boozer had when he negotiated that "handshake" deal

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Lillard started last season in the second round of most, if not all, mock drafts. Then came a most unexpected propulsion. It was bolstered by his historic year in the Big Sky, where he shot better than 50 percent from 2-point range, 41 percent from 3 and sunk 88 percent from the foul line. By early May, he was considered a late lottery pick (the 13-15 range). No one has risen like Lillard. The Draft hasn't seen a guard from a small-time league and from a school the size of Weber State so definitively turn himself into a surefire lottery pick in years -- if ever. His ascension is one of the most surprising and overlooked incredible aspects to the 2012 Draft.

Well, i am glad you still can't read. He ended the season (note: not last season) the top rated PG and then proved and improved his ranking through workouts. Nice quote about his 12 month long rise up draft boards though (a rise that really took off two months ago when workouts started matching film). His rise is literally not even a little bit like Waiters.

Yep, pretty cool how his draft board had Waiters as the clear #2 for the Cavs when Windy has a different story re MKG. GOOD STORY

Windy didn't have a different story...

By Thursday night, it was down to about four. There were numerous opinions and each scout and coach had slightly different lists. But it was pretty clear there were two names at the top once everything had been culled: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist of Kentucky and Dion Waiters of Syracuse.

Scott said his personal list had Waiters #2. Apparently Grant had MKG rated higher because he tried to trade up to #2, and it wasn't to get Waiters. The point is that everybody in the Cavs camp had MKG and Waiters as their top two, if Windy is reporting accurately.

We're splitting hairs here. Now that we're 36 hours past the draft and some information is coming out from reputable sources, I'm not hearing any more screams for Grant to be immediately fired. Turns out the Cavs were not caught flat-footed by unexpected events. They didn't panic. They did their homework on Waiters even to the point of breaking down his game to see how well he did on shots he is more likely to take in the NBA.

They didn't pick a guy that the rest of the league didn't have as a top ten pick, if Amick's reporting is accurate. None of the respected national writers that I'm aware of is trashing the Cavs draft or calling it questionable. The only people who hate it are the professional haters on this board who were already convinced the Cavs would screw up this draft before it started. When the Cavs picked a guy who didn't match any of the mocks, they had their raw meat.

YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.

Heh. When I think "great basketball mind", Skip Bayless is the first one I think of. Followed closely by Screamin' A.

Zeller ain't gonna be great. He'll never be under consideration for an all-star team. But he'll be serviceable. Limited, but solid. The Cavs could have done a lot worse with that one.

Prosecutor wrote:We're splitting hairs here. Now that we're 36 hours past the draft and some information is coming out from reputable sources, I'm not hearing any more screams for Grant to be immediately fired. Turns out the Cavs were not caught flat-footed by unexpected events. They didn't panic. They did their homework on Waiters even to the point of breaking down his game to see how well he did on shots he is more likely to take in the NBA.

They didn't pick a guy that the rest of the league didn't have as a top ten pick, if Amick's reporting is accurate. None of the respected national writers that I'm aware of is trashing the Cavs draft or calling it questionable. The only people who hate it are the professional haters on this board who were already convinced the Cavs would screw up this draft before it started. When the Cavs picked a guy who didn't match any of the mocks, they had their raw meat.

On frequent occasion, these guys are so smart they are dumb. This is all Mark Shapiro bullshit. It is the pink slime of draft day PR.

The only truth is time will tell. And I believe that 3 years hence we will easily be able to point to players we now -- not in 20/20 hindsight -- identify taken after Waiters that have much better careers. There's always a shot he's Westbook as the PR wants you to believe and you apparently do, but I doubt you're betting the house on that.

On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.

That Windy article goes a good long way in shutting people like me up but it still doesn't answer the issue about the Cavs FO never speaking to the kid before they drafted him.

Hopefully Waiters does great and then none of this matters nearly as much.

Yeah, that is extremely odd. Sometimes NFL teams draft players they don't bring in for workouts because they want the rest of the league to think they're not interested so nobody trades up and steals him. The Browns have done that.

Besides, a prospect can be coached by his agent to say all the right things in an interview. The way you really find out about a guy is to talk to his coaches. Did they have to pay off some cops to unarrest him after he was involved in a drunken bar fight? Did his teammates hate his guts? Are there rumors he's selling drugs like Jeremiah Pharms? Did he show up hungover for morning practices on a regular basis?

None of that critical information would ever come out in an interview. It would be all, "Yes, sir, No sir, just want to help the team any way I can, sir."

I'd still like one of the beat writers to ask Grant why they never interviewed him, though. It's a fair question.

"There's only one other player we would have took," Scott did. "That's the one that went No. 1."

^ your link

"Two months ago, when the team really started its draft process, there were about nine players who could've been its first pick. (Then several dozen or so more possibilities for the second pick, No. 24 overall.) By Thursday night, it was down to about four. There were numerous opinions and each scout and coach had slightly different lists. But it was pretty clear there were two names at the top once everything had been culled: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist of Kentucky and Dion Waiters of Syracuse."

motherscratcher wrote:On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.