i think in this very well written series that has been given new life, there are some characters that very clearly are painted as certain enneagram types. i seek the joyous feeling of having my opinions ripped apart by a broader consensus if other people are also into the series.

i might have forgotten some characters that i do in fact have strong opinions of.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

I lost my long post on this series a while ago and kept putting off making a new one... and won't have time today because I need to focus on homework. I had assigned some of the major houses to the six instinctual stackings, though, so I'll list them and can explain later if needed:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

Lord Eddard Stark: 1w9, likely 163 tritype, sp/so. Traditional, rule- and honor-bound. Dutiful but not blindly loyal. Will stand up for what he believes to be true no matter what. Unless his family is threatened; protecting them has always been his top priority. Places high priority on personal responsibility and familial cohesion.

Lady Catelyn Stark: 2w1, likely 216 tritype, also sp/so. Uncertain about this. Trying to avoid spoilers, but the biggest argument for 2w1 is the chilling direction she takes after the Red Wedding (think DoD). I could see 1w2 or 6w5 as possibilities as well. More One-like in the show than in the books, I think.

Robb Stark: Some flavor of Three. Unclear. Get a so/sx sense from him sometimes, sp/so in others. Firstborn, golden son. Leads well but needs heart-based reassurance. Six fix.

Sansa Stark: 4w3, 146 tritype. Princess archetype. (Possibly 469, Damsel in Distress.) I don't see the control issues of a Two, I see the entitled, envious style of a so/sp 4w3 who thinks she deserves the best that the songs and legends have to offer without having to work for it (or acknowledge any kind of brutal reality--until she's forced to). In lieu of posting excerpts from the books I'll link to clips form the show: Exhibits A, B.

Arya Stark: Eight. Not sure which wing. Given her self-reliance and avoidance of sociality, sp/sx is likely (in the show, sx/so is also likely). Active, mischievous, truth-telling, refuses to be a lady, currently on a quest for vengeance. Relies on no one but self, might be 825 in the books but seems more 874 or 864 in the show. Something about the 8+7 I can do anything attitude. She's the kind of little girl who's not afraid to steal a shirt off a dead person. By now in the books she's demonstrated more survival smarts and vengefulness than many other characters.

Bran Stark: Withdrawn, most likely Nine, probable 947 though a 5 fix is also likely. I don't want to attach 459 tritype to him just yet, but the way he spends most of the series highlights the strengths and weaknesses of a withdrawn character. I'll try to avoid big spoilers for now. His dream-based adventures and increasing detachment from the material world point to double-withdrawn at least.

Rickon Stark: Almost too young to tell. Head fix in Seven space. Probably with 9w8/8w9 and 4w5, given his increasingly feral attitude. Wild child, probable social-last.

Jon Snow: The bastard, in but not of the Stark family, perpetual outcast out to prove his worth to the world. I see some 3, 4, and 6 in that. Mostly Four, but could be a strong fix or wing. I can see Six in his dealing with the wildlings during Dance with Dragons, but overcoming his deficiency (bastard birth) seems to be what drives his character, and he has to learn not to look down on his Nights Watch brothers. I think a core Six would have had more natural democracy. Biggest argument against Six is his lack of foresight and tendency to let his heart get him into easily-avoidable disasters. However, his rooting for the underdog seems Sixish (see also: friendship with Sam Tarly). Typing him as a Four might be the easy way out (Black Sheep of the family), but his mother issues do suggest some abandonment/frustration around parental figures.

*For clues as to Jon Snow's "secret history", watch Martin's very careful wording in this clip.

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Too much | Too bright Too powerful

I can't decide wether Tyrion is an 874 or a 784. I would go with eight because he doesn't turn from hard truths, like a 7 would, and he can be utterly ruthless, like an eight. Also he protects innocence (Sansa), like a healthy 8. I don't think he's a self preserver. I think he's an sx/so. He seems weirdly chivalrous and committed to those he deems worthy.

Also, I think Arya would be a 854. She seems far more nihilistic than absurdist. In short, she's more ruminative than funny. Although I could settle for 864 (The maudlin drunken sports fan). She is most definitely a self preserver. She would shiv you for a shiny penny.

Jaime is a Co683. Who else would let Cersei drag him around by the, um, nose?

The few times I've seen George R.R. Martin speak at Comic Con, he's had a distinctly 5 feel. He's crusty and rational, and has a certain way of talking down to some of his fellow authors. I don't think a 9 would show his distaste so obviously. I could see a nine in his stacking, but not as a primary. 549 Maybe? If you're looking for a 954, look to Gaiman. He is most definitely a 9.

[quote]Originally posted by relicqueryLord Eddard Stark: 1w9, likely 163 tritype, sp/so. Traditional, rule- and honor-bound. Dutiful but not blindly loyal. Will stand up for what he believes to be true no matter what. Unless his family is threatened; protecting them has always been his top priority. Places high priority on personal responsibility and familial cohesion.

i would sooner think 146 than 136, but i would take tritypes of fictional characters purely as archetypes and with a thousand grains of salt

Sansa Stark: 4w3

i guess 4 is a possibility. i hadn't really considered that but it makes some sense.

Jon Snow: The bastard, in but not of the Stark family, perpetual outcast out to prove his worth to the world. I see some 3, 4, and 6 in that. Mostly Four, but could be a strong fix or wing. I can see Six in his dealing with the wildlings during Dance with Dragons, but overcoming his deficiency (bastard birth) seems to be what drives his character, and he has to learn not to look down on his Nights Watch brothers. I think a core Six would have had more natural democracy. Biggest argument against Six is his lack of foresight and tendency to let his heart get him into easily-avoidable disasters. However, his rooting for the underdog seems Sixish (see also: friendship with Sam Tarly). Typing him as a Four might be the easy way out (Black Sheep of the family), but his mother issues do suggest some abandonment/frustration around parental figures.

i don't see jon as focused or obsessive about his life circumstances or even remotely being driven by abandonment/frustration; rather i see him as intensely prepared, very strategic and forward-thinking. i'm not sure what you're seeing in him at all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

I can't decide wether Tyrion is an 874 or a 784. I would go with eight because he doesn't turn from hard truths, like a 7 would, and he can be utterly ruthless, like an eight. Also he protects innocence (Sansa), like a healthy 8. I don't think he's a self preserver. I think he's an sx/so. He seems weirdly chivalrous and committed to those he deems worthy.

he doesn't express lust or an overbearing presence; instead he expresses a quick mind and shows a lot of preference for fleeting pleasures.

quote:Jaime is a Co683. Who else would let Cersei drag him around by the, um, nose?

it hardly seems like jaime lets cersei drag him around. rather it seems that by book 4 jaime thinks cersei is insane and completely ignores her. one suspects that previously there was some combination of cersei being less of a control freak (though not totally) and jaime being more young and stupid (though not totally). also i don't really think that would suggest jaime is a 6 anyway -- i think 6s are typically individualistic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

Tyrion has a lust for wine, women, and knowledge. I think lust better describes that drive than gluttony (the vice of a seven). And he does have presence, I don't often see his kind of confidence or swagger, even in men three times his size. You're right that he is sharp as a whip and enjoys fleeting pleasures. However, the one sexual relationship he was loyal to was his first whore/wife, Tysha (was it?). He didn't discard or write her off the way a seven would have. I would say his swinging ways have more to do with trauma, than preference. The lesson he learned is, if you love anything, it can betray you. Betrayal=pain. After all, he kills Shae when she betrays him. Vengence for betrayal is very, very 8. He's definitely riding the 7/8 line, but I haven't seen definitive evidence to push him solidly into one type or the other.

Jaime is a Co683. Who else would let Cersei drag him around by the, um, nose?[/quote]

it hardly seems like jaime lets cersei drag him around. rather it seems that by book 4 jaime thinks cersei is insane and completely ignores her. one suspects that previously there was some combination of cersei being less of a control freak (though not totally) and jaime being more young and stupid (though not totally). also i don't really think that would suggest jaime is a 6 anyway -- i think 6s are typically individualistic.

The tritype I'm referring to is the justice fighter. They are one of the most violent and charismatic types around. I think Jaime often does not question the ruthless aims of his family, he simply executes their goals: he killed mad king Ares, he drops Bran out the tower window, he joins the Kings Guard, all out of family loyalty. If he were an 8 first, he would never have gotten off the iron throne when Stark told him to, nor would his aunt have said that Tyrion was Tywin's(8) true son. I'll agree he has 8 in his tritype, but an 8 doesn't have anything to prove like a Co6 does. 8s have a sense of self preservation. They don't rush into the arena unless they've decided they stand a good chance of winning. 8s will wait and watch, and strike with hesitationless precision when the time is right. 8s are utterly Machiavellian in a way that Jaime is not.

When Tywin dies and Cercei goes more BS Crazy, Jaime has nothing left to defend. He cuts and runs, looking for well...justice, in the noble pursuits of Brienne of Tarth. Jaime is not a leader, he is a follower. Even if he were smart enough to make these decisions for himself, he doesn't seem to want to be bothered.

I have never met a six that could think for themselves. They are always reacting to the crowd. Trying to fit, trying to stick out. They move like a pack of wolves. Loyal to a leader until the leader changes. They are called "The Loyalist", after all. Those that are thinking are skeptics, so again, reacting to the crowd.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

There is no homework.

Yes, but I think my post about the Starks already shows that. Have you seen the show or read the books?

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There is no homework.

Oh, I just skimmed so I didn't see that.

I've watched the first episode on 1channel.ch but I haven't read the books. My brother dissuaded me because according to him it's hyper-masculine porn fantasy. Judging by the amount of nakedness in just the first episode it seems like he could be right. But if you have positive things to say about the books I would give them a try.

Game of Thrones,” HBO’s hit drama based on George R.R. Martin’s much-loved “Song of Ice and Fire” fantasy series, can be counted on for a few things: severed heads, insider intrigue, mythical creatures, and a huge and confusing cast of characters. Oh, and naked women. Lots of them.

Frequent and often outlandish, the show’s eroticism often overshadows or distracts from the actual story. It’s not just me: After the copious amounts of T&A during the show’s first season reached a nadir of absurdity with a now-notorious scene involving two prostitutes pleasuring each other, Onion AV Club television critic Myles McNutt was moved to coin the term “sexposition” to describe the way the show’s producers often arbitrarily shoehorn sex into the narrative as a way to cover up potentially snooze-inducing exposition....

I love the books, dusty, and enjoy the show. Here's a feminist's reponse to some of the criticism about the books being "boy fantasy". Martin's own answer is here. As for the nudity and sex: it's HBO. Sometimes they've cut out scenes I wanted to see in favor of gratuitous sex and that's annoying. They also completely butchered Dany's wedding night. Overall, in the books, Martin spends more time describing food than he does describing sex.

I could talk about ASoIaF for hours at a time but I need to get off the computer... Just wait till school ends for the semester.

(I tried to post non-spoilerific clips from the show that could be a good introduction to the series if you want to check them out, also.)

Edit: actually some of those clips do have spoilers, Arya's "steal shirt" one and Jon Snow's second one. I want to find you a clip that can capture everything I enjoy about the stories but I'm just out of time. So here's a video review of Bellafonte's criticisms.

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There is no homework.

I love the books, dusty, and enjoy the show. Here's a feminist's reponse to some of the criticism about the books being "boy fantasy". Martin's own answer is here. As for the nudity and sex: it's HBO. Sometimes they've cut out scenes I wanted to see in favor of gratuitous sex and that's annoying. They also completely butchered Dany's wedding night. Overall, in the books, Martin spends more time describing food than he does describing sex.

I could talk about ASoIaF for hours at a time but I need to get off the computer... Just wait till school ends for the semester.

(I tried to post non-spoilerific clips from the show that could be a good introduction to the series if you want to check them out, also.)

Edit: actually some of those clips do have spoilers, Arya's "steal shirt" one and Jon Snow's second one. I want to find you a clip that can capture everything I enjoy about the stories but I'm just out of time. So here's a video review of Bellafonte's criticisms.

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There is no homework.

Ok, thanks for that relicquery. I am a fantasy fan, I like the war and heroics and magic and romance and all of the classic fantasy stuff, but my brother made it sound like it was testosterone overdose and just silly. I think I'll give it a try though.

with respect to these allegations of excess testosterone -- i would say something like, "yes, whatever, it is totally stupid that HBO did this but that's really not what the show is about, and it's really really not what the books are about." i think it is a kinda dumb reason to not give the show a chance, personally, but to each his own -- i won't argue that it is a reason based in fact.

today there was an episode with no nudity. it was refreshing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

Oh well, after reading this.. I made the choice that if trashing the show makes me anything like the person who wrote '12 Reasons to Boycott “Game of Thrones”' - I'll be sure to watch it every chance I get!

5. By depicting the traditional heterosexual family unit as dysfunctional and a socialistic revolutionary army as an ideal alternative, the show reveals its underlying communist bias.Should it come as any surprise that author George R. R. Martin, a power broker in liberal Hollywood, named the dominating spirit of these soldiers “The Red God”?

6. Actor Peter Dinklage, who plays a dwarf on the show, has become the poster child for sodomy amongst America’s youths.Children identify with Dinklage because of his small size and comical accent, but his obsession with anal penetration crosses the boundaries into pure propaganda. How many children will watch the little man and want to try his grunty thrusts at home?

really? lol

7. At times, the series appears to be little more than an excuse to display illicit homosexual scenarios.Flamboyant costumes, effeminate longhaired men, boys shaving each other’s armpits… Add to this the voluptuous, swarmy acting style of gay porn star Kit Harington (who plays sycophant Jon Snow) and you’ll feel like you’ve been transported to a San Francisco bathhouse full of the apes from Star Trek.

Oh well, after reading this.. I made the choice that if trashing the show makes me anything like the person who wrote '12 Reasons to Boycott “Game of Thrones”' - I'll be sure to watch it every chance I get!

oh goody. rather than comment on the numerous factual errors, let alone interpretive claims, in this reputable christwire.org article, i choose to link this youtube video of a microwave oven running for thirty seconds, which i think is more interesting and more educational: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoSdYZ3v_wY

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

It says one of the 12 reasons to boycott GoT is that adult viewers can't understand European accents, but their children can? WTF.

To prepare some female viewers: The power dynamics between the men and the women in some sex scenes are distasteful and potentially triggering to survivors of sexual assault. In the sex shown (particularly in the Dothraki plot), men are almost always wielding physical or economic power over the women they have sex with, who are often treated as sex objects whose purpose is to serve the man sexually. Sometimes the women are reluctant but have little choice over whether they have sex or how. The only examples of consensual sex I saw was a brief scene of consensual incest, and a few of the prostitution scenes, which vary in terms of power. Now I am a sex-positive, kink-friendly person. However I think if you haven’t read before watching, the way women are treated sexually may be shocking. It would be nice to see more sex scenes that aren’t powerful men bonking relatively powerless women, but rather mutual choice and enjoyment. I do have to block some of the misogyny out in order to enjoy the story, more so than any other show I have ever seen. For instance, I never felt this way at all about HBO’s Rome, which had plenty of sex. The world of GoT is very male-dominated and there is gratuitous showing of sex scenes where the woman’s role is to serve sexually .

Some bad examples, so you can decide for yourself:* A lord type controls his younger sister by sexual violence, then sells her as a bride to a warlord. She is scared on wedding night when warlord takes her passionately. After this, she does take more control in their sexual relationship. *The same lordling is then making out with said sisters ladies maid, who wants to discuss dragons, this reminds him of something sad and he yells that he bought her as a slave to serve him sexually and to get to it* Men hit or mishandle women in domestic situations more than you see on most TV shows.* Slave women dance naked on display as background entertainment and all men are empowered to push one down and take them sexually by force, from behind, whenever they wish, without addressing them or interacting with them as humans.* There are casual references to raping women, even by benevolent male characters. Raping women in war or before murdering them is a cultural norm.* In the first book there is a graphic scene where a woman is thrown over a pile of dead bodies and gang-raped. I don’t know if this will be in the TV show.

However: The sexual objectification is largely reserved for some minor female characters and nameless women. With the exception of the wedding night scene, the main female characters usually choose when they have sex – unfortunately this often means it’s not shown. The female protagonists are strong-willed, complex, and interesting, and they manage to wield power and skill in a variety of ways despite living in a society that is very sexist.

For me, it has been worth it to watch so far, but I do make a mental note when the woman are treated like sex slaves rather than sexual agents.

I will try to type some of the characters later, but I wanted to post this to give another feminist perspective.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."

I hope you guys aren't actually taking that Christwire article seriously. It can be hard for me to spot use of ironic humor sometimes. But just in case you took the article at face value, please have a look at this short Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christwire

Great post, warrants outstanding. Thank you. I'll come back to it.

I think Davos in the books is a clear 6, given that his whole character revolves around his loyalty to Stannis and his skepticism of the foreign red priestess, but once again until the end of the semester I won't have much time/energy to expend on this argument.

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There is no homework.

I actually started reading the Christwire article because frell finals, and it links to this article which attempts to correlate MBTI types to characters from the show. Definitely don't agree with all of it at a cursory glance, but it's some fodder for this discussion.

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There is no homework.

One example of heterosexual sex that i thought was done well was the scene between Rob Stark and his lover. This was clearly two people who had lust and admiration for each other and chose to have great sex on the spur of the moment.

Typing...

Ed Stark seems like a stubborn 9w1 to me. He is very stubborn and ignores the signs of danger, seems blissfully unaware, living in his ideal world where things happen the way they should. He is easily outmaneuvered and taken advantage of in the big city. He does have strong ideals, but he doesn't seem like an angry frustrated 1 to me, rather a simple, stubborn 9 giving enemies a chance.

I agree Tyrion is on the 7/8 line. Its hard to say which.

I always thought there was something 3 ish about Jaime, but it may just be the actor.

Jon Snow seems a 9 "everyman hero" to me.

Arya seems an 8 because she is reactive, truth telling, self-assured, revenge focused, and mostly concerned with her practical survival. Other reactive types can be individualistic and confrontational as well, but though she obtains and sheds identities, Arya doesn't appear interested in the meaning of these identities nor attached to any of them as much as a 4 would be, and she doesn't try to make alliances with others or seem interested in them as much as a 6 would. She will work with someone if it to her advantage and is annoyed by those weaker who slow her down, though she can be protective. There is also something 5 ish/nihilistic about her, and 8s stress to 5.

I saw Theon Geyjoy as a 6 who needs to prove himself, but I am unsure.Lysa Arron seems like a phobic 6.Stannis is definitely a frustrated and angry 1. I would contrast him with Ned Stark, who is more niney.

Sansa seems like a self-pres "me first" 2w3. Sp 2's are very privileged focused and may believe they deserve special treatment such as Verouca Salt in Charlie & Chocolate Factory, Muffy is Arthur , etc. She is very concerned with loving and being the valued lover of someone powerful and worthy. 2s sin is Vanity. The 3 wing = focus on superficial appearances. I guess if she couldn't be a 2, 4w3 would be a second, as I see the fantasy chivalry thing has a bit of a 4 flavor, but 4s are generally not as smooth as 2s, and are far more individualistic. Also a 4, even a 4w3 would appreciate facial imperfection of someone like The Hound I think.

Joffrey seems like a very low 3.

Ok that's all for now. I'll have to return later for more typings.

I believe In the holy origin of all thingsIn the eternal impulse of creationIn all times and places