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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Paul Watt wrote:

"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Sean Vayda wrote:

...attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.

I like the quote. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of it.

Quote:

Keith Lee wrote:

So after I say I train with a sandan on a regular basis, you immediately change your tune. Just a minute ago you made it sound like a sandan is the end all, be all. Any more inconsistencies or hyperbole you'd like to throw out?

Non-committed?? Michael and I are both higher ranked and have trained longer in Aikido than you, so if we're comparing commitment than we both place higher than you on that totem pole.

You took an awful lot from me using sandan as a mark. I didn't imply all of that.

Yes, non-committed. You guys might of been Aiki-hobbyists since the dawn of time. You might of done enough for the organization to get your rank. But that means little to me.

If you were committed, you'd not be dogging Aikido at every chance when it comes to BJJ. Instead, you'd be developing the next layer of techniques for Aikido to deal with these "mysterious and all new" attacks.

If you're sandans or other senior rank, you should be spending your time at your dojos that you run developing your own technique rather than chasing someone else's.

I live Aikido. There's little else in this world that means as much to me as this art. Hours on hours are dedicated to unlocking the mysteries. Hours on hours decidated to figuring out what I can do to make myself right for Aikido.

If I walked into a BJJ gym or any dojo tomorrow to test my skills, it would be to find the weakness in my technique. It wouldn't be about challenging Aikido. If my technique failed, then I'd search for the answer within Aikido. Should I not find the answer, I'd begin to develop an Aikido solution.

That's commitment.

You clowns are part-timers and half-assers. 1 minus .5 equals a half. You've only got one life. If you spend part of it on BJJ, then you're part-timing Aikido.

Quote:

Larry Camejo wrote:

These threads always show how little the average AIkidoka knows about using Aikido in an actual engagement imho. The talk about using weapons against an unarmed BJJ person is just as bad as the "dirty tricks" (eye gouges etc.) approach imho. It shows a lack of understanding of both BJJ and Aikido for that matter.

I think those were jokes.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:

I do remember that in the last discussion that Jean went on a bent about how rank doesn't matter. I predicted he'd change his tune on that and I see he has.

And you were right. However, I don't know if the reason you believe rank matters is the same reason I do.

It's like a college degree to me. You should expect that the degreed individual is more knowledgeable than the non-degreed. However, it's not a gaurantee. Some lower ranks understand more than some higher ranks and vice versa.

But I do agree that it's an indicator.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:

Sandans? Well I'm one, does that count? I was Nidan when I first walked into a BJJ club and got completely handled. My grades have all been confrerred by an Aikikai Shihan - so of course when you insult my level and ability you are also insulting that particular Shihan and indeed the Aikikai.

Nope. I don't know why you were awarded yours

I do insult your level and ability. However, I'm simply stating what the equation reflected in your opinion concludes. You've insulted yourself. I've simply condensed it for you.

Please don't try to hide behind the Aikikai and a particular Shihan. The reasons they gave you a rank is as unknown to me as it is to you.

If you were unable to grasp the teachings of a certain Shihan, that is a reflection of you and your unwillingness or inability to work harder...not the Shihan.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:

I noticed something odd in one of your responses. Can you confirm for us that the "dojo" you went to test yourself was *Brazillian* Jiu Jitsu and not japanese?

I've been out to a few gyms. None BJJ. MMA and Japanese.

They're all the same, right? Just like all Aikido's the same? Isn't that what you've been saying?

As always, I appreciate the play time.

The reason that I haven't advanced in my Aikido is ego. (Can you tell?) I'm terribly arrogant so I've refused to test. (But those things are changing.) Being low-rank and awfully egotistical gives me a defense for playing these games.

What's your excuse? Sandans should represent better.

I'm done playing with you again. If you can't grasp what's being said, I just can't help you.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Right so it is now clear Jean has *never* tested himself or sparred with a BJJer.
Show me where I ever said that BJJ is the same as JJJ or even judo? It's simply not true. So when you try to show how your aikido can deal with a bjjer by talking about an experience with JJJ you're exposing your ignorance even more than normal.

Let me state again - for the thousandth time, that we do not look to dog aikido at any opportunity. We *all* say Aikido is a fantastic art for it's specific purpose.

But when it comes to the BJJ discussion - We have more experience of Aikido than you. We have more experience of BJJ than you (which appears to be none). Why would your opinion carry *any* weight at all given you are talking of things of which you have *no* actual experience. It's all theory and daydreams.

When someone pops up that says they have found within Aikido an effective counter to BJJ strategy (that is not BJJ), and that person has actually experienced BJJ with genuine ranks- then I might be interested.

But you? You're a kid reading books, talking big and fantasising about how you would wristlock Rickson.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Anyone know a legitimate BJJ in The Dallas/FW area?? Gonna go get some first hand experience. I realize a BJJ board is probably a better place to ask.

I apologize if I said anything offense to BJJ practitioners. I'm sure the talkers are a minority. I was tried. I respect BJJ for the practicality. Does seem like the places I've found are charging an arm and a leg to train with em. The BJJ dojo near me charges twice what my Aikido dojo charges per month. We do quite a bit of grappling in my Aikido dojo and I find grappling to be quite effective. I usually can hold my own against everybody except my Sensei. It's not my favorite thing to do I'll admit. I've never been able to take my Aikido sensei down to the ground and I'm 185lb 6ft. I'm going full out I might add. He's probably 160, 5' 8". Granted, I haven't trained in take downs for years and years.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yeah, Carlos Machado is the one I found in Farmer's Branch. Kinda pricey. But that's relative I guess.

Last year I believe they were charging $135 a month and $50 annual association fee. Granted, I guess if you really want to learn it's cheap. $50 a year for the association is reasonable.
$300/hr for private lessons with Carlos Machado!

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Paul Watt wrote:

"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul

Not to mention Kimura was a judo and karate guy, not a jiujitsu guy, and he had fought man wrestling matches and challenge fights similar to todays MMA. He was probably the greatest fighter alive at that time. No one before Kimura, no one after. If I remember right Kimura refers to Helio Gracie as a little meek 6th dan in judo. He was frustrated that he kept throwing Helio, but the mats were too soft and Helio was unharmed. So he finally pinned him and broke his arm with a bent armlock we now call the Kimura. The towl was thrown in and Kimura was the winner. This was a grappling only match. However bjj has come a long way from the gracies. With each new black belt comes a revolution of techniques and new ideas and refinement of old ideas. Things that were once lost are rediscovered and new things are lost. It evolves and is not a fixed art. I'm truely amazed everytime I watch a new blackblet. Guys like Eddie Bravo, Braulio Estima, and the late Carlson Gracie all have very unique ways of using bjj. So its not as simply as beating bjj with an aikido technique ( as if there was a technique you could use to defeat anything 100% of the time). Its a matter of defeating the unique style of the fighter you face.

This is why there are guys who are better then I that I can tap without issue, they simply can not deal with my style. Likewise there are guys who technically I am better than, but for the life of me I find a huge challenge. Guys I can tap without any issue tap these guys that give me horrible trouble easily. Its the style of play.

Some general rules of thumb for fighting a bjj guy are very simple. First, keep distance. A bjj guy needs to grapple with you to take you down and submit you. This means you need to hope you are a better striker then he is, and that your body movement is better then he is. Keep circling, and maintaining distance. When you see his level change circle out with strikes. Next when he finally gets the shot in you need to maintain your balance and control his head. This could mean using a wall for support, sprawling, some kind of ninja like rooting. Whatever you do you need to prevent the takedown. A great way to do this is to stuff with a sprawl and push his head down hard. The body goes where the head goes. Deliver strikes and escape.

You are going to find it hard to do any joint locks. Bjj guys are smart about joint locks and they know how to move to escape them and use your attempt to their advantage. To effectively use a wrist lock on them is going to be very hard, you will have more success with armlocks, but you are giving them something to hold on to. This is usually all they need to take you down. I have very little success with wrist locks until I have a dominate position on the ground. Usually the guy just lets go or moves though the wrist lock.

This that will probably not work. Finger locks and breaks. I have broken fingers and toes and in competition usually do not notice right away. In a street fight the attacker is not going to be swayed nearly as easy as a competition. So there is even less likelihood that a finger break is going to matter. Pinches and pressure points are also very low percentage and more the often will just expose a limb for a bjj guy to lock. If you do get taken down it is probably going to be over quick, but if you are mounted there are a few things you should never do. Punching or pushing on the person will only get you armbared. Pulling on them will also expose arm locks. Rolling over will get you choked out. Your best bet is to try to swim though the rain of punches and trap an arm while hipping up to keep them off balance so their strikes are not that hard. Hopefully this will let you roll them over your shoulder. If no strikes are involved then you want to keep your elbows down on your sides with your hands protecting your throat so they can not use their legs to walk your arms up over your head. However if you are on the ground and you do not tons of sparing time on the ground, it is probably over. Your best bet is to just cover up the best you can and beg.

So if you are really worried about a bjj guy, you need to spend some time defending takedowns. This means getting real judo, wrestling, bjj, etc guys to try to take you down in a fully resistant environment. It is easy to stuff a takedown in kata. It is a lot harder when the guy can vary his approach based on your shifting weight and defense. But if you can prevent takedowns, you can nullify most bjj. Then its just a matter of dealing with his strikes. If he is a pure bjj guy, then that won't be much to worry about. However most bjj guys I know also train in boxing or mauy thai because they want to be mma fighters.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Okay

When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.

As for learning BJJ well its the easy way out yes but doing so equals losing faith in the whole art of Aikido and its effectiveness where its not Aikido anymore but BJJ so thanks but no thanks, I would rather work so hard on my Aikido to the extent where I am mentally comfortable with its application against any one including BJJ'ers and if I am ever taken down then there is a problem with my dedication and understanding and I need to work on it even harder.

Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.

P.S how genuine are these Hapkido, Taekwando, Kung Fu black belts Gracie takes down in the youtube videos? where did all of their kicking/knee work disappear when he charged at them? they seem to be standing there waiting for him to grab and control them, are you sure these guys are not acting?

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Jean de Rochefort wrote wrote:

Yeah but was he a sandan before or after he started BJJ? If he wasn't a sandan, then he doesn't count. Then, what style is he if he was a sandan? Only two styles of Aikido matter and he's had to of trained in one for five years and the other for six months. However, the six months must of been during his third year of the first style. Of course, he had to of returned to the second after his five years of the first to pursue his sandan.

Quote:

Tim Miranda wrote:

What does any of that mean?

All I got out of that is apparently there are only two styles of Aikido that count. Love to know what they are.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Don Magee wrote:

Not to mention Kimura was a judo and karate guy, not a jiujitsu guy, and he had fought man wrestling matches and challenge fights similar to todays MMA. He was probably the greatest fighter alive at that time. No one before Kimura, no one after. If I remember right Kimura refers to Helio Gracie as a little meek 6th dan in judo. He was frustrated that he kept throwing Helio, but the mats were too soft and Helio was unharmed. So he finally pinned him and broke his arm with a bent armlock we now call the Kimura. The towl was thrown in and Kimura was the winner. This was a grappling only match. However bjj has come a long way from the gracies. With each new black belt comes a revolution of techniques and new ideas and refinement of old ideas. Things that were once lost are rediscovered and new things are lost. It evolves and is not a fixed art. I'm truely amazed everytime I watch a new blackblet. Guys like Eddie Bravo, Braulio Estima, and the late Carlson Gracie all have very unique ways of using bjj. So its not as simply as beating bjj with an aikido technique ( as if there was a technique you could use to defeat anything 100% of the time). Its a matter of defeating the unique style of the fighter you face.

This is why there are guys who are better then I that I can tap without issue, they simply can not deal with my style. Likewise there are guys who technically I am better than, but for the life of me I find a huge challenge. Guys I can tap without any issue tap these guys that give me horrible trouble easily. Its the style of play.

Some general rules of thumb for fighting a bjj guy are very simple. First, keep distance. A bjj guy needs to grapple with you to take you down and submit you. This means you need to hope you are a better striker then he is, and that your body movement is better then he is. Keep circling, and maintaining distance. When you see his level change circle out with strikes. Next when he finally gets the shot in you need to maintain your balance and control his head. This could mean using a wall for support, sprawling, some kind of ninja like rooting. Whatever you do you need to prevent the takedown. A great way to do this is to stuff with a sprawl and push his head down hard. The body goes where the head goes. Deliver strikes and escape.

You are going to find it hard to do any joint locks. Bjj guys are smart about joint locks and they know how to move to escape them and use your attempt to their advantage. To effectively use a wrist lock on them is going to be very hard, you will have more success with armlocks, but you are giving them something to hold on to. This is usually all they need to take you down. I have very little success with wrist locks until I have a dominate position on the ground. Usually the guy just lets go or moves though the wrist lock.

This that will probably not work. Finger locks and breaks. I have broken fingers and toes and in competition usually do not notice right away. In a street fight the attacker is not going to be swayed nearly as easy as a competition. So there is even less likelihood that a finger break is going to matter. Pinches and pressure points are also very low percentage and more the often will just expose a limb for a bjj guy to lock. If you do get taken down it is probably going to be over quick, but if you are mounted there are a few things you should never do. Punching or pushing on the person will only get you armbared. Pulling on them will also expose arm locks. Rolling over will get you choked out. Your best bet is to try to swim though the rain of punches and trap an arm while hipping up to keep them off balance so their strikes are not that hard. Hopefully this will let you roll them over your shoulder. If no strikes are involved then you want to keep your elbows down on your sides with your hands protecting your throat so they can not use their legs to walk your arms up over your head. However if you are on the ground and you do not tons of sparing time on the ground, it is probably over. Your best bet is to just cover up the best you can and beg.

So if you are really worried about a bjj guy, you need to spend some time defending takedowns. This means getting real judo, wrestling, bjj, etc guys to try to take you down in a fully resistant environment. It is easy to stuff a takedown in kata. It is a lot harder when the guy can vary his approach based on your shifting weight and defense. But if you can prevent takedowns, you can nullify most bjj. Then its just a matter of dealing with his strikes. If he is a pure bjj guy, then that won't be much to worry about. However most bjj guys I know also train in boxing or mauy thai because they want to be mma fighters.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:

Okay
When I asked the question at hand I was looking for Aikido techniques and I seem to have got alternatives like:

1) Use a weapon
2) Gouge the eyes
3) Learn BJJ/Wrestling

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.

Not sure about eye gouge or etc etc... but weapon work is clearly part of aikido syllabus. Using weapon defeats the purpose of aikido, you say? Maybe for you, but many practitioners do not think so.

Quote:

As for learning BJJ well its the easy way out yes but doing so equals losing faith in the whole art of Aikido and its effectiveness where its not Aikido anymore but BJJ so thanks but no thanks

Realize this Ahmed, no one art can give you complete coverage. Each art has a specialization Analogy:. Life insurance is just that, take care of your next of kins after your passing whereas medical insurance take care of you when you fall ill... they were not designed to do each other's role.

Quote:

Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.

You did not realize I was being T3H FUNNY when I simply burped out some random Japanese term.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:

Thank to all of those who contributed to this discussion specially those who answered my question and mentioned some Aikido techniques - Mary Turner, Nafis Zahir and Xu Wenfung.

First off, I believe Xu mentioned aikido techniques WITH a weapon.

Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:

Frankly these answers (specially coming from Aikidoka's) concern me because it reflects mental desperation and panic when it comes to BJJ as for the first two (weapons and gouging eyes) I think resorting to either one defeats the whole purpose of Aikido if applied by an Aikidoka since Aikido is mainly about redirecting one's energy = having control of the situation.

How does the use of a weapon reflect mental desperation and panic?

If we're talking self-defense or combat, I'd say it is much more intelligent than bludgeoning someone with your hands. This is not a knock on combat sports; I enjoy them quite a bit.

Aikido has an intimate connection to weapons. Jujutsu developed around weapons to support their use and disarm people if you lose yours. The Gracies developed some of these techniques into a fine form of submission wrestling and ground fighting, but it is not the most sensible way to fight empty-handed. Watch modern MMA. See how their strategies nullify most BJJ techniques and double leg takedowns to a very high percentage.

What about aikido techniques, including the attacks?
Why the focus on controlling the wrist and arm?
Why the lack of "takedowns" and "takedown defense"?
What happens if you shoot for a double leg on someone armed with a knife or sword?

Just some food for thought.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:

I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

How about a Kimura lock? Worked for Kimura.

Or if they pull guard, picking them up and slamming them on the back of their head? Remember we aren't on a cushy mat or relatively cushy canvas. Worked for the dude on The Ultimate Fighter 5 (also known as The Most Immature Show Ever 5).

Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Sean Vayda wrote:

Hello all! I see you are having a very good discussion, and I belive I have the answer. Before I started Aikido I had four years of Karate and som JuJutsu, and quite simply the easiest way to stop a grappler is too....Relax completely! One of Tohei's five ki principles, you see grapplers require resistance, if they were to do say a bear hug and you relax completely and do not resist, there isn't much they can do, and beside, why are you concerning yourself with your attacker? As O'sensei said, attackers will come in all shapes forms and sizes, but they are just energy to be harmonized with.

Relaxing is the base but not all of it. If you just relax with someone shooting at your legs you just go down faster. The key, as in all fights, remain reaction and timing. Someone like BJJer attacks your center and if you don't move fast enough he takes your center. Someone who shoots at your legs doesn't give you the energy like in a punch, push or grab. It is a constant energy charging your center and the only way to harmonize with it would be...well going down with the opponent, thing that Vs a BJJer you wouldn't want.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Justin Smith wrote:

How about a Kimura lock? Worked for Kimura.

Or if they pull guard, picking them up and slamming them on the back of their head? Remember we aren't on a cushy mat or relatively cushy canvas. Worked for the dude on The Ultimate Fighter 5 (also known as The Most Immature Show Ever 5).

Basically, anything that their sporting/entertianment environment outlaws: strikes to the throat, back of the head, breaking fingers, clawing eyes, testicles, etc. Using weapons..

The only reason those slams worked is because he was unwilling to break his arm. Had he been willing to end that guys MMA career forever, he could of broke his arm before that slam ever happened. Instead he was trying to be nice and get the 'tap'. That is a really bad idea for a street fight. However even then the slams did not really mess him up that much. Breaking fingers, strikes to the throat, clawing the eyes, testicles etc, are all very low precentage. They are hard to do, and have varying effectiveness depending on the person you are using them on. I was once put in the hospital from a groin kick, but before I went down I choked the guy I was fighting out cold. I've broken fingers and it didn't slow me down. I once watched a guy in our club break his toe so it was pointing straight up. He stopped reached down and bent it back the right way then went back to sparing.

While these things can help you, you need solid high percentage techniques to make sure you are in a position to use these low percentage techniques.

Of course obviously weapons would work. And blows to the back of the head are not really defensive moves, that means you are on their back raining shots. Hardly aiki if you ask me.