RAWALPINDI, Pakistan, Sept. 26 (UPI) -- The retired Pakistani general who
is closest to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden contends the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington were the work of renegade
U.S. Air Force elements working with the Israelis. Gen. Hameed Gul led
Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence during the war against the Soviet
occupation of Afghanistan. Gul serves as an adviser to Pakistan's extremist
religious political parties, which oppose their government's decision to
support the United States in any action against Afghanistan's Taliban
regime. Gul contends bin Laden had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks
on New York and Washington, saying instead that they were the work of the
Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service -- a version of events that has
been endorsed by Islamic fundamentalist clerics and is widely accepted by
Muslims throughout the Arab world.

Here is the transcript of the exclusive interview Gul gave to Arnaud de
Borchgrave, United Press International editor at large:

--

De Borchgrave: So who did Black Sept. 11?

Gul: Mossad and its accomplices. The U.S. spends $40 billion a year on its
11 intelligence agencies. That's $400 billion in 10 years. Yet the Bush
Administration says it was taken by surprise. I don't believe it. Within 10
minutes of the second twin tower being hit in the World Trade Center ... CNN
said Osama bin Laden had done it. That was a planned piece of disinformation
by the real perpetrators. It created an instant mindset and put public
opinion into a trance, which prevented even intelligent people from thinking
for themselves.

--

Q: So you're already convinced bin Laden didn't do it?

A: I know bin Laden and his associates. I've been with them here, in
Europe and the Middle East. They are graduates of the best universities and
are highly intelligent with impressive degrees and speak impeccable English.
These are people who have rediscovered fundamental Islamic values. Many come
from the Gulf countries where ruling royal families have generated hatred by
the way they flout divine law, wasting billions on gratifying their whims,
jetting around in large private jets by themselves, and sailing the
Mediterranean in big private boats for weeks on end. Osama's best recruits
come from feudal areas that are U.S. protectorates and where millions of
poor people are seeking human dignity. I have even visited a Christian
convent school in Murree, 60 miles from here, where my 13-year-old daughter
is studying. The young girls there have told me Osama is their hero. Osama's
followers identify with Mujahideen freedom fighters wherever they are
defending Islam and its values.

--

Q: So what makes you think Osama wasn't behind Sept. 11?

A: From a cave inside a mountain or a peasant's hovel? Let's be serious.
Osama inspires countless millions by standing up for Islam against American
and Israeli imperialism. He doesn't have the means for such a sophisticated
operation.

--

Q: Why Mossad?

A: Mossad and its American associates are the obvious culprits. Who
benefits from the crime? The attacks against the twin towers started at 8:45
a.m. and four flights are diverted from their assigned air space and no air
traffic controller sounds the alarm. And no Air Force jets scramble until 10
a.m. That also smacks of a small scale Air Force rebellion, a coup against
the Pentagon perhaps? Radars are jammed, transponders fail. No IFF -- friend
or foe identification -- challenge. In Pakistan, if there is no response to
IFF, jets are instantly scrambled and the aircraft is shot down with no
further questions asked. This was clearly an inside job. Bush was afraid and
rushed to the shelter of a nuclear bunker. He clearly feared a nuclear
situation. Who could that have been? Will that also be hushed up in the
investigation, like the Warren report after the Kennedy assassination?

--

Q: At this point, someone might be asking what you've been smoking. What
is Israel's interest in such a monstrous plot, which, of course, no one
believes except Islamist extremists who concocted this piece of
disinformation in the first place, presumably to detract from the real
culprits?

A: Jews never agreed to Bush 41 (George H.W. Bush, the 41st president) or
43 (his son George W. Bush, the 43rd president). They made sure Bush senior
didn't get a second term. His land-for-peace pressure in Palestine didn't
suit Israel. They were also against the young Bush because he was considered
too close to oil interests and the Gulf countries. Bush senior and Jim Baker
had raised $150 million for Bush junior, much of it from Mideast sources or
their American go-betweens. Bush 41 and Baker, as private citizens, had also
facilitated the new strategic relationship between Saudi Arabia and Iran. I
have this from sources in both countries. So clearly the prospect of a Bush
43 was a potential danger to Israel.

Jews were stunned by the way Bush stole the election in Florida. They had
put big money on Al Gore. Israel has given its imperialist guardian parent
opportunities to turn disaster into a pretext for imposing an
all-encompassing military, political and economic agenda to further the
cause of global capitalism. While Colin Powell is cautious and others are
reckless and want to make up for their failure to defeat Saddam Hussein in
the Gulf War 10 years ago, the global agenda is the same.

Israel knows it has a short shelf-life before it is overwhelmed by
demographics. It is a state that was born in terrorism that terrorized
Palestinians into the exile of refugee camps, where they have now subsisted
in squalid refugee camps, and is now very much afraid of Pakistan's nuclear
capability.

Israel has now handed the Bush family the opportunity it has been waiting
for to consolidate America's imperial grip on the Gulf and acquire control
of the Caspian basin by extending its military presence in Central Asia.
Bush conveniently overlooks -- or is not told -- the fact that Islamic
fundamentalists got their big boost in the modern age as CIA assets in the
covert campaign I was also involved with to force the Soviets out of
Afghanistan. Bush senior was vice president during that entire campaign. And
no sooner did he become president on Jan. 20, 1989, than he summoned an
inter-agency intelligence meeting and issued an order, among several others,
to clip the wings of ISI (Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence) that had
been coordinating the entire operation in Afghanistan. I know this firsthand
as I was DGISI at the time (director general, ISI).

--

Q: So how do you read U.S. strategy in Pakistan?

A: The destabilization of Pakistan is part of the U.S. plan because it is
a Muslim nuclear state. The U.S. wants to isolate Pakistan from China as
part of its containment policy. President Nixon's book "The Real War" said
China would be the superpower of the 21st Century. The U.S. is also creating
hostility between Pakistan and Afghanistan, two Muslim states to reverse the
perception that the Islamic world now has its own nuclear weapons. Bush 43
doesn't realize he is being manipulated by people who understand
geopolitics. He is not leading but being led. All he can do is think in
terms of the wanted-dead-or-alive culture, which is how Hollywood conditions
the masses to think and act.

All summer long we heard about America's shrinking surplus and that the
Pentagon would not have sufficient funds to modernize for the 21st century.
And now, all of a sudden, the Pentagon can get what it wants without any
Democratic Party opposition. How very convenient! Even your cherished civil
liberties can now be abridged with impunity to protect the expansion of the
hegemony of transnational capitalism. There is now a new excuse to crush
anti-globalization protests.

Bush 43 follows Bush 41. Iraq was baited into the Kuwaiti trap when the
U.S. told Saddam it was not interested in his inter-Arab squabbles. Two days
later, he moved into Kuwait, which was an Iraqi province anyway before the
British Empire decreed otherwise. Roosevelt baited the Pearl Harbor trap for
the Japanese empire, which provided the pretext for entering World War II.
And now the Israelis have given the U.S. the pretext for further expansion
into an area that will be critical in the next 25 years - the Caspian basin.

--

Q: Were you a fundamentalist in the days of the war against the Soviets in
Afghanistan when you worked closely with the CIA?

A: Not as much as I am today.

--

Q: What turned you against America?

A: Betrayals and broken promises and what was done to my army career.

--

Q: And what was that?

A: President Ishaq Khan, who succeeded Zia ul-Haq after his plane was
blown out of the sky, wanted to appoint me chief of staff, the highest
position in the Pakistani army. The U.S., which by then had clipped ISI's
wings, also blocked my promotion by informing the president I was
unacceptable. So I was moved to a corps commander position. As ISI director,
I held the whole Mujahideen movement in the palm of my hands. We were all
pro-American. But then America left us in the lurch and everything went to
pieces, including Afghanistan.

The U.S. pushed for a broad-based Afghan government of seven factions and
then waved goodbye. Even in the best of democracies, a broad-based coalition
does not work. So we quickly had seven jokers in Kabul interested in only
one thing - jockeying for power. The gunplay quickly followed, which led to
the creation of Taliban, the students of the original Mujahideen, who
decided to put an end to it.

--

Q: What happened to the 1,000 shoulder-fired Stinger anti-aircraft
missiles that were supplied by president Reagan in 1986 and 87 to the
Mujahideen, and that literally grounded the Soviet air force?

A: After the Soviets pulled out, the CIA allocated $60 million to try to
buy them back. This just drove the black market price up for one Stinger
from $100,000 to $300,000. The Taliban still have about 250 of them for the
kind of situation they face today against U.S. aircraft.

--

Q: Is the U.S. now your enemy?

A: Is the U.S. national interest in contradiction with the Muslim world?
The U.S. needs oil, as do its European allies. You have between 6 and 8
million American Muslims and their ranks are growing. About the same number
in Europe. Israel aside, we are America's natural allies. Prof. Sam
Huntington in his "Clash of Civilizations" puts Confucius and
Judeo-Christians in one corner, and us n the other. His prescription is
wrong but is being adopted by Bush 43 who has now put 60 countries on his
hit list. This is the diabolical school that wants to launch an anti-Muslim
"crusade." Muslims understood what Bush meant when he used that word.

We need a meeting, not a clash, of civilizations. We are on the brink of
disaster. It is time to pull back from the brink and reassess before we blow
ourselves up. The purpose of Islam is service to humanity. The time for
like-minded people to have a meeting of the minds is now.

--

Q: But you are against democracy, so how can there be a meeting of the
minds?

A: Democracy does not work. Politicians are constantly thinking of their
next election, not the public good, which means, at best, constantly shading
the truth to hide it from their constituents. Their pronouncements are laced
with lies and the voters are lulled or gulled into believing utter nonsense.
The Koran says call a spade a spade. It is the supreme law and tells right
from wrong. There is no notion of "my country right or wrong" under divine
law. The creator's will predominates. All if subservient to Allah's will and
adherence to a set of basic, fundamental values.

--

Q: So what kind of a system are you advocating?

A: The world needs a post-modern state system. Right now, the nation-state
and round the clock satellite TV lead people to imitate America's way of
life. Which is mathematically impossible. You have 4 percent of the world's
population consuming 32 percent of the world's resources. The creator
through Prophet Mohammed said equal distribution. Capitalism is the negation
of the creator's will. It leads to imperialism and unilateralism.

--

Q: So what does this post-modern state system look like?

A: A global village under divine order, or we will have global bloodshed
until good triumphs over evil. Islam encapsulates all the principal
religions and what was handed down 1,400 years ago was the normal
evolutionary sequel to Judaism and Christianity. The prophet's last sermon
was a universal document of human rights for everyone that surpasses
everything that came since, including America's declaration of independence
and the U.N. Charter of universal rights. If you superimpose true secular
values on true Islamic values, there is no difference. So surely divine law
should supersede man-made law. Islam is egalitarian, tolerant and
progressive. It is the wave of the future.

--

Q: Marxism also believed that the nation-state would eventually wither
away.

A: Socialism jumped the rails when it was co-opted by the imperialist
Soviet state. Islam believes in dynamism, Christianity stands for static
statism. The pope in all his pronouncements has expressed a dogmatic
attachment to the status quo. Why are so many black Americans converting to
Islam? Because they are looking for true equality which they cannot find
under capitalism. Allah has no gender, neither male nor female. Islam has no
indirect taxation in an interest-free economy. Usury was a Jewish concept.

--

Q: Is Iran your model?

A: There isn't a single true Islamic state in the world today. Iran has
moved forward from its 1979 revolution, but I am not sure whether it's the
right direction.

--

Q: And Taliban?

A: They represent Islam in its purest form so far. It's a clean sheet. And
they were also moving in the right direction when this crisis was cooked up
by the U.S. Until Sept. 11, they had perfect law and order with no formal
police force, only traffic cops without sidearms. Now, in less than two
weeks, they have mobilized some 300,000 volunteers to fight American and
British invaders if they come.

--

Q: And you reaction to U.S. demands on Pakistan?

A: If Pakistan gives the U.S. base rights we will have a national
upheaval. And if the U.S. attacks Afghanistan, there will be a call -- a
fatwa -- for a general jihad. All borders will then disappear and it will be
a no-holds-barred Islamic uprising against Israel and American imperialism.
Pakistan will be engulfed in the firestorm. So I can only hope that cooler
heads will prevail in Washington.

--

Q: What about the other U.S. demands?

A: Overflight rights are meaningless since the U.S. violates air space
daily all over the world. As for intelligence sharing with ISI, you can't
even catch your own terrorists. And what ISI gives you will be of marginal
value anyway.

--

Q: President (Pervez) Musharraf has made strong statements supporting the
U.S.

A: He was my student in the army. He is a good man, but he doesn't
understand Islam. The army will never fight the masses. If push comes to
shove, Musharraf will say no to the Americans rather than turn against the
people. He is not just facing a handful of angry people. By his own
admission, it's 10 percent to 15 percent of the population, or at least 10
million people willing to fight. For openers, they would close the port of
Karachi. A country cannot breathe without lungs.

--

Q: Back to Osama's terrorist network. Who was behind the bombing of the
U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya?

A: Mossad is strong in both countries. Remember the Israeli operation to
free hostages in Entebbe (Uganda)? Both Kenya and Tanzania were part of the
logistical tail. A so-called associate of Osama was framed at Karachi
airport. The incidents took place on Aug. 8, 1999, and on the 10th a short,
clean-shaven man disembarks at Karachi airport and presents the passport of
a bearded man. Not your passport, he was told. He then tries to bribe the
clerk with 200 rupees. A ludicrously small sum given the circumstances. The
clerk says no and turns him in and he starts singing right away. Not
plausible. Osama has sworn to me on the Koran it was not him and he is
truthful to a fault. Pious Muslims do not kill innocent civilians who
included many Muslim victims. The passport must have been switched while the
man was asleep on the plane in what has all the earmarks of a Mossad
operation. For 10 years, the Mujahideen fought the Soviets in Afghanistan
and not a single Soviet embassy was touched anywhere in the world. So this
could not have been Osama's followers.

--

Q: What if bin Laden has been lying to you and is guilty. Is that
inconceivable?

A: If Taliban are given irrefutable evidence of his guilt, I am in favor
of a fair trial. In America, one is entitled to a jury of peers. But he has
no American peers. The Taliban would not object, in the event of a prima
face case, to an international Islamic court meeting in The Hague. They
would turn extradite Osama to the Netherlands.

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