Union workers - Guns & Voting

With the current round of attacks on Gun ownership now underway I was wondering how Unionized workers feel.

I am sure there are union workers who are a part of this forum and in the firearms community in general. I was wondering, given the strong Union support for the D party, how those involved with Unions and are Firearms enthusiasts square their themselves when it is time to vote.

The results of this poll might be interesting. This is not a public poll and I don't expect anyone to reveal their private votes unless they want to of course.

I have been a Union worker for 24 years. I have voted for a couple of Dems over the years, but only after researching their views on gun control and the Second Ammendment. I feel like a minority because not one politician I voted for in November got elected.
Our freedom is first and everything else is a distant second.

HKGuns

March 17, 2013, 06:53 PM

Full disclosure, I'm non union and I have had to hold my nose a couple of times, including this last election, but I vote 2nd amendment by default. TBH I think you will be in the minority if folks are honest. I simply hear too much bally-hoo about living wages and "Evil Corporations" from far too many gun owning Union workers. I sincerely hope I am wrong as there is no reason we can't have a good economy with great jobs for everyone as well as maintain our 2nd Amendment rights.

clutch

March 17, 2013, 07:05 PM

I vote 2nd Amendment. Not lip service 2nd Amendment.

Texan Scott

March 17, 2013, 07:14 PM

Texas is a right- to- work state. We're also a non- preemption state. Our larger cities are in many ways sanctuaries or residential colonies for so- called "progressives". A lot of them will deceitfully or perhaps mistakenly identify themselves as "liberal", but "give us a chunk of your paycheck or you'll never work this business again" has nothing to do with liberty, any more than "give us your guns or else". We don't tolerate either very well here.

cambeul41

March 17, 2013, 07:26 PM

My job required union membership. My particular local is not objectionable, but it did distribute the official "Vote Smart" campaign literature which I found to be a perfect guide: In every race and on every issue, I voted another way.

Michigan is now a right-to-work state, but since I plan to retire very soon, I will not go through the hassle of quitting and enduring the arguments that would ensue.

One good thing: The local president is on record as saying that his goal, if Michigan became a right to work state, was to make the local so valuable to the members that they would think of the dues as money well spent. Whether that happens remains to be seen.

Edit: I did not vote in the poll above. I can't stomach saying, "I am union" since I was put in one with no question asked or even notice of the fact being given — I learned of it from a payroll deduction. My vote is cast for the good of the country and its people. So fare that has also been pro-2A.

kgpcr

March 17, 2013, 07:35 PM

Intersting but not a valid poll being the liberal union nuts are not visiting a gun site. Not all union folks are liberal nuts!! Its just that they would not be on this site

HKGuns

March 17, 2013, 07:43 PM

I don't think most Union workers are "liberal union nuts". I think they are regular people who have views on a variety of issues.

As you can already see above, some are forced into a Union without a right to choose. (For now)

DammitBoy

March 17, 2013, 07:48 PM

My job requires union membership and I hate unions.

Steel Horse Rider

March 17, 2013, 07:51 PM

I am a business owner and I vote the 2nd Amendment among other things. There is generally a common conservative thread running through candidates who support liberty and the Constitution. We had an issue here 5 years ago where the NRA endorsed a flaming lefty freshman Representative against a moderate conservative state legislator challenger because "the incumbent has not cast any anti-Second Amendment votes" but she did vote for Nancy Pelosi for speaker. That is when I lost respect for the NRA. Trying to show evenhandedness should not open the door to stupidity....

DeepSouth

March 17, 2013, 07:54 PM

I'm a member of the USW and while I vote primarily on gun rights issues I'm am not a single issue voter. And with said I frequently disagree with the USW as a national organization, but I do support my local and the people in it, who also are frequently at odds with the USW.

tacxted

March 17, 2013, 07:54 PM

I work a unionized job at the moment. I vote pro-2nd amendment and when I do the union is not on my mind at the voting booth. My union sent me mailings around election time and I promptly threw them in the garbage.

The union I have does great things for the workers here concerning job security and benefits. I didnt join this job for the union, I think this is important to point out. This job was the best paying in the area and it happened to be unionized.

Old Dog

March 17, 2013, 11:05 PM

I guess I'm in one of the most hated unions in the world -- a union that represents folks in law enforcement.

I am often a single-issue voter -- RKBA/2nd Amendment -- but as a family man, a father and one looking towards securing a better future for my progeny, I have to take a broader view and vote many issues. I typically vote mostly Republican, often Libertarian or Independent, but I have, and do, vote for some Democrats (but NEVER on the national level).

Every election though, I seem to vote for fewer and fewer candidates from the Democrat Party.

barnbwt

March 18, 2013, 01:01 AM

I hate being forced to be a "one issue voter" because I think they are responsible for most of our deadlock, but of all the things I care about, the 2nd is the one area where there is a tangible difference in approach by the various parties. I'm probably more anti-surveillance, but neither major party seeks anything but growth in that area. I will cease to vote as a single-issuer once the crusade against my rights is redirected elsewhere (war on clowns, anyone?)

TCB

wankerjake

March 18, 2013, 01:09 AM

I know a union firefighter, likes guns for self defense and hunting... pretty sure he votes democrat. We don't talk much politics but I got the impression one time that he feels the democratic party will keep his pension and benefits alive. I know his wife voted Obama... both times.

Myself, non-union and I vote with all the amendments, not just the second. This does not align much with the (D) party.

MountainBear

March 18, 2013, 01:42 AM

I'm generally anti-union and I vote pro-2nd amendment...

Lex Luthier

March 18, 2013, 07:35 AM

Not a fan of unions. The yard union at my old job shut the place down with their unreasonable demands. Took my money and ran, and THEN helped Obama get elected. Never did a thing for me but take their piece for "the good of all our members". Yeah right.

It is ironic that unions are supposed to be so good for people, but end up spending the most in political schmooze money. It's embarrassing.

Roadking Rider

March 18, 2013, 07:54 AM

Belong to the United Brotherhood of Carpenters a for over 41 years. I'm a Republican and I vote how I please. I'm very Pro 2nd amendment rights. However my vote is never along party lines and I try to vote on all the issues not just one. There is plenty of blame to go around within both parties for this current mess we're in. If it were up to me I'd throw them all out and start over. They all seem to have forgotten that they work for us, and we don't answer to them. Many voters seem to have forgotten that.

vito

March 18, 2013, 08:46 AM

Other than in the public sector, unions are no longer a really relevant issue. While they still have power in some industries, overall union membership is so low as to be worthy of being ignored. If you don't count the teachers and other government workers you would find that there are very few union members in this country.

farmer pliers

March 18, 2013, 09:17 AM

Also my job is union. I vote other issues. Always pro-life, pro-2nd and less goverment. I have never met a tax hike that I voted for. Several of my coworkers bleed blue. A few are starting to get a little worried about all that is going on here in Colorado but their roots to the union run deep where I am at. We will gain some of their votes, a few may not vote (we will take that as a half vote). My hope is that it won't be to little to late. We have to get out the vote in 2014, 2016 and moving forward from their. Were not going to change the leadership of the unions but we can impact the membership by showing them where this is impacting them.

Chevelle SS

March 18, 2013, 09:24 AM

Union but I vote pro 2nd amendment. I have a flyer they sent me last
November telling me that Obama promises no to take my guns. We all see how true that is.

TheDaywalkersDad

March 18, 2013, 09:57 AM

I've been a union member (3 different unions) for about 20 years. In my experience, most members vote party, or beliefs over what the union says.
For example, the Conservatives vote Republican and the FSA vote for the Dems no matter what. No discussion is ever given about what the union wants.
Of course, I'm in a right to work state. Things are probably different up north.

Neo-Luddite

March 18, 2013, 10:16 AM

Proud 3rd generation Union on both sides. Single issue voter pro 2nd. You wouldn't believe how many of us are.

Brother in AFSCME Council 31 / AFL-CIO

Brother in FOP Lodge 263 (Fraternal, non-bargaining unit)

beatledog7

March 18, 2013, 10:27 AM

A poll with so many options, and it still needs a "none of the above" option.

I am non-union and hope to always be able to remain so, but I can foresee the possibility that circumstance could force my hand. I am currently a non-union 2A and other issues voter.

CajunBass

March 18, 2013, 10:33 AM

I'm retired now, but was in a union for 37 years. In all that time I never asked anybody how I should vote on anything, and didn't really care who they said they thought I should vote for.

Narwhal

March 18, 2013, 11:56 AM

I'm union and I voted for Obama in '08, huge mistake. Although really, how much better would McCain have been in the grand scheme of things? I actually liked Romney and voted for him in '12. I can't see myself ever voting for another democrat after Obama has come after the second amendment after saying that he wouldn't.

In reality, democrats pay lip service to unions but they do nothing meaningful to help us. I realize that now. I wish more union members would recognize that. Money drives politics and the unions are small potatoes compared to the corporate interests and their lobbyists.

I like how a union cuts down on brown nosing and favoritism but dislike how it makes obvious losers sometimes tough to get rid of. In my profession everyone is unionized and if you aren't in, you still have to pay the same amount of money in "shop fees", only it goes to the company instead of the union and you don't get any of the union benefits.

P5 Guy

March 18, 2013, 05:18 PM

I am not in a union, but I am not anti union. I vote for issues that concern me and for those that profess to have the same views as I do.
This is getting harder to do because there are no longer any with moderate views on some of the non gun issues that mean almost as much to me as keeping my guns.

richie

March 18, 2013, 07:01 PM

The companies I worked for made it mandatory to join or find work elsewhere. So I've been a Teamster and most recently Machinist Union, I'm retired now,draw a small teamsters pension, nothing from the machinst union. I've always had guns and I always voted for pro gun candidates, I was a registered Dem. until Obama was elected, I immediately, registered Rep.

bamajoey

March 18, 2013, 07:38 PM

I was in a union for 31. I have been voting for 45 years and never voted for a democrat.
If I had it to do over again, I would have never joined. Labor unions are only good for protecting the people that don't want to work.

k_dawg

March 18, 2013, 09:56 PM

Aside for gang members and drug dealers; I am unaware of any other widespread group that often collectively uses violence and intimidation to achieve their goals.

TanklessPro

March 19, 2013, 12:16 PM

I did not vote on this poll because I was a union worker for over 15 years and I'm now a company worker. I vote based on the Constitution and always have. I have only voted for a Dem once in my life and he was very pro gun.

Teachu2

March 19, 2013, 12:34 PM

I'm a teacher in California - and the union managed to get "agency fee" status with the district. That means you don't have to be a member, but you pay them the a fee anyway. So I joined and got myself elected to the Rep Council. Take my money, you'll hear my voice.

A dozen years ago, I was the Lone Conservative on the Council. Now we're at ~40%, and often sway half the others to vote with us. I live in the Central Valley of California, surrounded by oil and ag, and we're a red county in a blue state. The California Teachers Association would like us to shut up, but we continue to talk....

Nanook

March 19, 2013, 08:08 PM

I'm a union pipefitter, for almost 40 years. I've never given a damn how the leadership voted or wanted us to vote.

I vote for the 2nd Amendment every single time. In my life I've voted for 2 democrats, both of them state reps with an excellent 2A record. I grew up in Chicago, and never voted for the machine. In fact, if I even thought a candidate was part of the machine, I voted for his opponent. Never voted for King Richard the first, and wasn't there for his idiot offspring's reign.

I consider myself a libertarian, lower case 'L', not interested in the national party. Or perhaps an independent. Due to the so-called 2 party system, I find myself voting republican more often than not.

Pro-life, anti-socialism, and definitely pro-gun. It would be impossible for me to care less about how the union leadership wanted me to vote. When Gore was running, and all of the union sycophants wanted us to vote for him, I loudly refused. One of them asked me, "Do you think he's going to come for your guns in January?" really sarcastic. I told him of course not, he'll send some 18 year old kids to do his dirty work for him, maybe your kids.

End of discussion. LOL

wild willy

March 19, 2013, 08:32 PM

I was a union member for 35 years the idea behind unions is great.Most of them are worse than worthless

doc2rn

March 19, 2013, 08:41 PM

As the song says I pay more for a tag in the back that says made in the USA!

I vote on the issues and always ask them point blank on 2A.

DammitBoy

March 20, 2013, 06:53 AM

Labor unions are only good for protecting the people that don't want to work.

That's funny, my union is only good for taking the money of those who work hard.

4thestars

March 20, 2013, 07:25 AM

I vote 2A. I'm also in a union. Our union seems to be as much for the convenience of our employer as it is for the members. Our contracts are fairly neutral in terms of who benefits more. I do like my union, because it can step in to make sure that the contract is followed properly.

phil dirt

March 20, 2013, 11:54 AM

I was represented by the local teacher's association for 31 years and always voted Second Amendment. I never once voted for a Democrat in all that time, except when two Democrats were running against each other. In those situations, I tried to vote for the lessor of two evils. Usually, however, one was as bad as the other.

X-Rap

March 20, 2013, 12:01 PM

It's encouraging to see so many say they vote pro 2a even though they are union. The fact still remains that their dues went to elect those who acted counter to their wishes on gun matters in many cases.

Darkbob

March 20, 2013, 03:58 PM

Growing up, my dad was always in a union (pipefitter). I never thought about unions as being pro-democratic, because my father was never anything but conservative.

I was a union member for a few years before going back to college and politics was rarely mentioned in my small group of friends.

I have always voted for the issues (not the party), and 2nd amendments rights are one of the issues I vote for.

homatok

March 21, 2013, 12:01 PM

I was not going to vote in this thread since I am from Canada, but what needs to be said (and understood) is that Union members are no different than stock holders in a multinational company! Business contributes large sums of money to try to insure their favorite party gets in but not all share holders vote for that party. Unions are no different! We all have a free choice and can vote the way we choose! Do Unions push a certein party? Yes of course they do! So do employers!

Agsalaska

March 21, 2013, 01:22 PM

I never, ever, ever vote on singular issues and cannot stand it when people do. That is one reason we are in the position we are in today. People say, I dont care what his thoughts are in the economy, he is (fill in the singular issue here) so I am voting for him.

HKGuns

March 21, 2013, 04:46 PM

So do employers!

My employer has never pushed a certain party, they may push a position that is favorable to their economic viability, however, they have NEVER pushed one party over the other. I would think most companies know better. Single issue voting is just fine as long as it is an important issue.

Issues like the "economy" and others, I won't name, are just "hot button" distraction issues to throw you off your game or make you think there is a difference between two candidates. Voting the 2nd amendment usually means you're voting for someone who understands the constitution, the purpose and limits of Government. When people tell me they vote the economy I read "Hand out" voting.

Other than spending us into oblivion the Government has very little control over the economy and quite frankly they need to stop spending us into oblivion only to continue to raise taxes to pay for all of their spending.

john1911

March 21, 2013, 05:40 PM

Seems a lot of union members want to say the don't vote the "union way". Guess what, you are in a minority (if you're being truthful). For every member that doesn't vote the "union way" there are probably 10+ that do. On top of that, you are buying even more "union way" votes with your dues and PAC contributions.

Enginetech88

March 21, 2013, 06:31 PM

Im a union member. Good pay and benefits but Im still not pro-union. I work with approx 130 people. 115 of them are the exact reason people hate unions. The remaining 15 of us are the only 2A supporters.Its very interesting how often one's stance on guns can give you an almost complete look into the type of person they are. Out of the 15 I am the only one that votes 2A exclusively. I am the definition of a single issue voter.

RetiredUSNChief

March 21, 2013, 06:54 PM

With the current round of attacks on Gun ownership now underway I was wondering how Unionized workers feel.

I am sure there are union workers who are a part of this forum and in the firearms community in general. I was wondering, given the strong Union support for the D party, how those involved with Unions and are Firearms enthusiasts square their themselves when it is time to vote.

The results of this poll might be interesting. This is not a public poll and I don't expect anyone to reveal their private votes unless they want to of course.

The results of this poll might be more interesting if it weren't already in a biased forum.

I think that the information you really want can't be accurately captured here...this forum is, by default, a pro-gun, pro-RKBA forum. Members here, whether union or not, will thus fall under these categories.

Perhaps there might be a better place to post such a poll, maybe some union-centric forum or something? The results might be more enlightening.

I suspect a better and more objective one would probably be to beat-feet to to some union shops and businesses at random and conduct a live poll. I suspect a union-centric website would probably have it's own political agenda which would determine/dominate its membership.

Bassn81

March 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

I'm a union firefighter and vote 2A as one my more important issues. Nationally I vote 2A. At the state level I try to find a balance between 2A and my retirement. I was hired under a pension system governed by the state. If they want to give me the money I put in and what my city was SUPPOSED to put in for me now, I'll invest it on my own and vote only 2A. Right now I'm lucky. My rep votes correctly on 2A issues, and is pretty good on fire issues.

Seems most of the guys in my Union are gunowner's, They are just more afraid of their pension/benefits being taken away than their 2A rights. People love to hate on us for getting a pension, not our fault the politicians raided our funds and never made a payment in.

blkbrd666

March 21, 2013, 07:21 PM

I'm non union and I vote 2A first and "government, keep your nose out of my life" second.

toiville2feathers

March 21, 2013, 08:23 PM

I'm worked union for 25 years, and the last 16 years I worked a non-union company in a management position. I'm now retired. The non-union company treated the management very well in compensation, benefits, bonuses, and 401 K plans. The common labor force got totally screwed over. My pension from the union is more than double what i get from the 401K based on a 15 year payout. Even with a sizeable 401K balance, the Wall Street boys have significantly taken much of that away. Every month I thank the Lord for that union pension, because they are living up to what they promised.
My wife worked worked for a Iron mining company for 27 years as an accoutant, and had a pension plan promised to her. The mining company went bankrupt and as a result they took the pension fund also. The US government guarantees all pension funds but only at 50%. She don't get much more than squat for 27 years of service. Companies today worry about bottom lines and share holders. They don't give a damn about the worker or the community.
I'm a conservative Democrat and I vote that way, and I vote for 2 amendment issues, I stand up at caucuses, and voice my stance on issues. I write letters to my congress men and let them know what I expect from them. And I was doing it before the internet was available and it became so damn easy to do. It was called letter writing and you used the post office and you had to put your real name on it.
In case you don't realize the labor unions have set the standards for working and saftey conditions on the job. They have a direct effect on your benefits and fair labor practices.
And having said that I will tell you in all seriousness and truthfulness "You don't have to work union,it not necessary, but I want to warn you, don't ever get sick and don't get old"!

HKGuns

March 21, 2013, 09:26 PM

The results of this poll might be more interesting if it weren't already in a biased forum.

I agree, yet we have fully 14 members, even here, who either vote with their Unions or other issues and can completely understand voting for pensions. Although I wonder the sense it makes voting for a Democrat thinking they're going to save your pensions.

Good economic policy, less Government and Government spending and lower tax rates across the board will result in a thriving economy. -Not something the Democrats typically support.

wyohome

March 21, 2013, 10:06 PM

I was union for 27 years, sent a great deal of money to the Dem PACs. They were the ones that shut down the woods to logging and my job was over.

ol' scratch

March 21, 2013, 10:44 PM

Right now I am a freight train conductor (I have done lots of things in the past). I have no choice but to be in a union. I really am OK with that because I get good representation. Many of the guys I work with are pro gun and thumb a finger at the union when they tell us how to vote. I was interested to find out one person I know is very progun voted for Obama. This guy is a CCW holder and firearms enthusist. He told me, "(ol' scratch) I wouldn't have voted for Obama if I had known he was going to make a play for our guns. I am truely shocked." I think many people thought the same thing. The man didn't do a thing in the first term and promised he wouldn't do anything and then he started his garbage. It was as if he gained some enlightenment with Newtown and now it is OK to take what doesn't belong to him.

HKGuns

March 21, 2013, 11:16 PM

He told me, "(ol' scratch) I wouldn't have voted for Obama if I had known he was going to make a play for our guns. I am truely shocked." I think many people thought the same thing.

Then he truly is ignorant ol' Scratch. NOBAMA has been and always will be a product of Chicago politics. You needed to look no further than what has been going on in Chicago and guns for the last 50 years to figure that out. It wasn't well hidden. You also had is off camera remarks to the Soviets that he'll have more freedom after the 2nd election as he'll never be able to run again. Gee, like we couldn't have seen this coming?

Some folks need to pick their heads up out of the sand. (not you of course scratch.)

DammitBoy

March 21, 2013, 11:22 PM

Seems a lot of union members want to say the don't vote the "union way". Guess what, you are in a minority (if you're being truthful). For every member that doesn't vote the "union way" there are probably 10+ that do. On top of that, you are buying even more "union way" votes with your dues and PAC contributions.

I wouldn't know. No one has ever asked me to vote for anything or asked me how I voted on anything ever in my union. Nor have I asked any of them.

As far as anybody I've talked to, they only belong to the union for the career and would not if they didn't have to. No one I know believes the union helps them in any way. They simply grift us for dues and 3% of our paycheck.

MachIVshooter

March 21, 2013, 11:57 PM

Not a single issue voter, but it just happens that I agree with almost nothing in the democrat platform. I'm a libertarian, but generally have to pull the trigger on an (R). Working from the ground up within the local caucus to start shifting the party toward libertarianism.

On unions, yeah......most of what I have to say is not THR. I would never, EVER work for a unionized company. Had a couple offers, really lucrative ones. Found out they required union membership, quite literally gave the one finger salute and walked out the door.

Unions destroy companies and entire industries. How many times now has a hard nosed union stance forced the doors closed on generations-old entities?

My neighbor is also a firefighter, and a conservative, but has towed the union line many times in the past. However, he stopped by the other day, and he swore up and down after what they've done here that he'll never vote for a democrat again. He's the umpteenth person I've heard that from in the last week.

Big_John1961

March 22, 2013, 12:09 AM

Longtime union member. Always have voted pro-Constitution and always will. I'm in the union because I have to be; I couldn't care less about what their stance on issues is, because liberalism is at the foundation of all of them.

clutch

March 22, 2013, 06:15 PM

I worked in a union shop for 28 days after a non union job of 21 years went away. I was shocked to see the lunch room turn into election HQ for the democratic party because there was a primary. Being handed bumper stickers and being told to put them on my truck infuriated me and I didn't do it.

I vote the 2nd Amendment and most other things fall in line behind it. I make more where I'm working now (decertified the union) and the 28 day employer is out of business.

RetiredUSNChief

March 22, 2013, 06:59 PM

I worked in a union shop for 28 days after a non union job of 21 years went away. I was shocked to see the lunch room turn into election HQ for the democratic party because there was a primary. Being handed bumper stickers and being told to put them on my truck infuriated me and I didn't do it.

Having read several other posts similar to this one, I find such behavior highly unethical.

Interestingly, I do not discuss whom I vote (voted) for in any given election, because I consider it to be private. I don't even discuss these details with my wife, and I don't ask her how she votes. This is the way my parents were.

It's pretty obvious to anybody who discusses politics with me how I likely vote in any given election, but I do not tell them.

HKGuns

March 22, 2013, 10:13 PM

I don't even have to talk to a retired USN Chief to know how he votes.

Clean97GTI

March 23, 2013, 01:36 AM

Intersting but not a valid poll being the liberal union nuts are not visiting a gun site. Not all union folks are liberal nuts!! Its just that they would not be on this site

I'm a liberal union nut who owns a bunch of guns.

MikeS.

March 23, 2013, 02:02 AM

I vote for who I want what I want. It's always pro 2A.

Clean97GTI

March 23, 2013, 02:24 AM

What amazes me is the staunch hate most conservative middle class Americans have for unions. You would think they would support higher wages and insurance that doesn't go away should you change jobs nor require government funding. Real pensions vs. wall street vanishing funds. Companies negotiate prices all the time, but if a worker does it, All of a sudden it's the evil socialisms.
Confusing to say the least.

Unionized labor makes up roughly 12% of the workforce in the USA. If you want to blame the failures of industry on anyone, unions should be way down the list. 88% if the country works without representation and has stagnant wages and shrinking savings to show for it.

I tend to be fairly anarchist in my ideal political ideology but since that isn't going to happen any time soon, I'll take the liberal agenda first. It may be corporatist as well but at least the democrats pretend to look out for the middle class. The republicans are almost blatant in their willingness to sell out the worker for campaign contributions.

okiewita40

March 23, 2013, 04:16 AM

To me the union's are nothing but a waste of money. Waaaay to liberal when it comes to politics.

Now there was a time and place for them in the past. They also did a lot of good for the workers back in the day. I just think those days are gone. I had a job once that was a union shop and had no choice. That is wrong in my book. All I ever heard was strike. But it never happened. I would have crossed the line in a heart beat to keep food on the table.

For me union's of today are no different than the mob. They take as much as they can and don't give a thing back in return.

BigBoreJay

March 23, 2013, 05:54 AM

Don't assume too much about union members. I am an IBEW member who, unlike most, realizes there are things which are more important than Dollar $igns. I am union for the benefits and the money, but I could easily go non-union and probably be much happier with less. I believe in smaller, less intrusive gov't., I oppose almost all of the left-wing agenda, and I support unrestricted RKBA.

RetiredUSNChief

March 23, 2013, 08:11 AM

I don't even have to talk to a retired USN Chief to know how he votes.

:D:D

HKGuns

March 23, 2013, 09:23 AM

What amazes me is the staunch hate most conservative middle class Americans have for unions.

I have no hate for the Unions or the good people in the Unions. What I truly hate and I think at least "some" of the hard working Union members would agree, is the Socialist nature of the Unions.

Protect those who are not working hard, I have numerous examples of some, not all, Union workers drunk on the job being protected by the Unions. The Company literally cannot get rid of them. Meanwhile, the hard working Union members, picking up the slack of the slackers, are getting the exact same wage as those going out to lunch and coming back hammered.

If the Unions were willing to shed the weak and pay the higher performing workers commensurate with their skills and hard work I would be fine with Unions.

Sadly, that is not how Unions operate. I'm not necessarily speaking of Police or Fire Unions as I don't know that the problem exists to the extent in those Unions as it does elsewhere.

But let's not turn this into a Union bashing thread.

but I could easily go non-union and probably be much happier with less. You just might be surprised that if you embraced pay for performance that you ended up getting more. Skilled labor is not easy to hire and retain and a lot of companies are frustrated with the Unions who protect the weak which serves to make the good employees unhappy. Most Companies would be more than willing to pay to retain your hard work and skills, regardless.

Clean97GTI

March 23, 2013, 11:16 AM

I have no hate for the Unions or the good people in the Unions. What I truly hate and I think at least "some" of the hard working Union members would agree, is the Socialist nature of the Unions.

Protect those who are not working hard, I have numerous examples of some, not all, Union workers drunk on the job being protected by the Unions. The Company literally cannot get rid of them. Meanwhile, the hard working Union members, picking up the slack of the slackers, are getting the exact same wage as those going out to lunch and coming back hammered.
Socialist?
I always hear about this sort of thing and I'm sure it does happen to some extent but I've also worked non-union jobs with people who get drunk or use some other drug on the clock as well. I don't know anyone who has gotten busted for any sort of drug or alcohol usage and been right back on the job.
An example here in my city is in the convention and trade show business. Most of the guys moving the freight around for exhibits and the like are Teamsters.
Now there are some crackhead teamsters out there and they do use on the job but they also don't seem to last very long. The guys driving the forklifts and running the lifts don't use because they know if anything happens, they go for an immediate drug test. No questions. No excuses. You get your slip from the labor desk and go right down to pee in a cup. If you don't, you lose your job and you get no more calls.
Perhaps it is the economic downturn that spurred changes like this but even in my own union (IATSE Local 720) we don't engage in that sort of nonsense because we know there are 50 guys behind us on the list just waiting for my spot to open up. On tight knit house crews, people get drummed out if they can't be counted on because we know the house could probably hire non-union guys to come in for less money. They call the Stagehands because they know the work will be the best the industry has to offer.

Quite frankly, the UAW is not every union and it is not 1975 anymore. Things have changed and most unions have changed along with it.
Sure the job protection gets a little lopsided but I don't think you'll find too many business agents/labor reps willing to go to bat for some guy caught drunk on the job these days. I know that sort of thing does not happen in my local as a general rule. Standard operating procedure at the labor desk is that if anyone is caught intoxicated they get an immediate drug test form and are taken off the call list pending the results. We do not screw around with that.

Even if that sort of thing happens on occasion which I'm sure it does, it is the exception rather than the rule and still does not outweigh the benefits unions provide. A stronger middle class is good for America regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum. A middle class family making a higher wage makes a stronger America. The unions may be left leaning but only because it pays them to do so. The NRA lobbies for gun rights and the unions lobby for labor rights. Lobbying gets things done politically and it is really just a matter of picking your poison.

MachIVshooter

March 23, 2013, 11:54 AM

I tend to be fairly anarchist in my ideal political ideology but since that isn't going to happen any time soon, I'll take the liberal agenda first

Anarchist political ideology, gun owner, and democrat voter? Does not compute.

You just might be surprised that if you embraced pay for performance that you ended up getting more.

This. It's not the 1920's. We have federal labor laws and safety laws that protect workers from unnecessarily hazardous environments and working excessively without compensation.

Non-union means that a company is free to treat employees as individuals, not a collective. They can reward the good ones, inspire the mediocre ones and can the bad ones. Unions, like socialism, create an environment of laziness and apathy. If you're gonna get the same pay as the next guy, why work harder or do a better job? Performance based pay rewards the good workers and punishes the bad ones, as it should be.

DammitBoy

March 23, 2013, 12:14 PM

Unions, like socialism, create an environment of laziness and apathy. If you're gonna get the same pay as the next guy, why work harder or do a better job?

Complete nonsense.

Because if you don't work harder or better you will get replaced by another union member who does work harder. I'm always amazed by how people think it works and how far that is from reality.

If there are only 500 union jobs available and 1000 union members trying to get those jobs - you better bring your A game if you want to stay employed.

X-Rap

March 23, 2013, 12:30 PM

Complete nonsense.

Because if you don't work harder or better you will get replaced by another union member who does work harder. I'm always amazed by how people think it works and how far that is from reality.

If there are only 500 union jobs available and 1000 union members trying to get those jobs - you better bring your A game if you want to stay employed.

That may have been true to some extent even more so in the last decade in which the unions have lost much in the private sector but the new union members work for the gov. Termination of teachers, postal and the others that make up the majority of collective bargaining is very hard.

I would also submit that those who garner pay, retirement or entitlement from a gov entity probably have a biased vote that while it may not show up as a majority of members here, would in a poll of the man on the street.

Resist Evil

March 23, 2013, 01:10 PM

I'm a union member. I chose to join. I carry the card, it doesn't carry me. I've used many firearms since I had fourteen years.

Unionism is much more important than any single union. The ignorance about the history, causes and need for unionism yesterday, today and tomorrow in this thread is apparent. Union ignorance, sadly, seems no barrier to punching the Post button.

My union is morally and intellectually incompetent in advising me as to how to spend my vote. It is barely relevant in my private relationship with an employer in my jurisdiction. It is not relevant at all as to how I choose to participate in public affairs.

I vote for Liberty in every election. If there is any issue that translates into less taxes, less welfare, fewer free cell phones, less government intrusion into an individual's freedom, and a reduction of arms infringements, I'm likely to vote in support.

As for whom I might vote, a favorite quotation: "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is "needed" before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible." Barry Goldwater

Clean97GTI

March 23, 2013, 01:41 PM

Anarchist political ideology, gun owner, and democrat voter? Does not compute.

It absolutely computes.
The anarchist believes the individual is sovereign above all else. The state is a construct that ends up reducing the liberties of all involved. States are founded for various reasons with varying intentions but it always ends up reducing the individual and blunts his/her potential.

The trouble is that in the USA, we aren't be permitted to leave the state and construct a new community with our own rules as decided democratically by those wishing to live in the community. You may get the occasional off-grid type community like The Mesa in New Mexico but you know that should anything serious occur, state authorities will step in.

This is where my ideals must take a back seat to reality. I exercise as much freedom as I can without going to jail (because that would cost me my freedom) and I vote more towards the left because I believe that the right wing of this country has been sold a bill of goods that emphasizes corporate interests over individual interests. They believe wholeheartedly that trickle down economics works and if the business owners do well, the little man will too. It is a lovely theory that rarely achieves its goals because businesses aren't in business to pay their employees well and provide health care. They are in business to make money and anything else is a secondary consideration. Giving such power to corporate interests very seldom yields tangible benefits for the worker.

The democrats aren't much better but the social programs and services they do push for, generally benefit the average American. Industries (especially insurance and medicine) hate the idea of a single payer system because it hampers their ability to set prices to levels that yield maximum profit. It has nothing to do with the market setting the price because a fair market does not exist for health care. The power is entirely vested in the service providers. It is a very unequal footing.
Long story boring, I want the government to use its bulk to provide valuable services for the citizens who pay the taxes. A healthy, educated populace is far more valuable than a giant corporation.

also note that when I say a single payer system, I am absolutely NOT referring to the corporate gimme that is the Affordable Care Act. There are a few redeeming qualities but the whole thing is little more than a giant subsidy to insurance corporations and the OK for hospitals to slap people with outrageous prices.

Pilot

March 23, 2013, 01:42 PM

When was the last time a union supported a non-statist, conservative leaning candidate that supports the 2A?

barnbwt

March 23, 2013, 02:00 PM

Just make sure you donate as much or more to the pro-gun candidates/groups as that portion of your dues slated for their opposition. My dislike for modern unions (some, not all) is the anti-democratic nature in which they gather members' resources and dispense them as the leadership sees fit for whatever causes keep them in power--whether each dues-payer agrees with the cause or not.

Collective bargaining is not the problem, the leadership structure is. Time and again, we see the loudest, most radical, and charismatic guys elevated (not at the low-levels, so much as the mid/upper-leadership levels), and once there, their job becomes how to gin up as much furor and political force from their members as possible. It keeps the group united, and keeps the honchos in command. Might even bring in some extra money on top of dues. It's not terribly different from the Crusades of old in this respect.

When was the last time a union supported a non-statist, conservative leaning candidate that supports the 2A?

I'm sure there is a small, locally-run union somewhere that isn't yet pandering to the highest reaches of power, and still represents the interests of the members. The massive, aglomerated ones are the monsters that have taken on a will of their own.

TCB

Clean97GTI

March 23, 2013, 02:20 PM

Just make sure you donate as much or more to the pro-gun candidates/groups as that portion of your dues slated for their opposition. My dislike for modern unions (some, not all) is the anti-democratic nature in which they gather members' resources and dispense them as the leadership sees fit for whatever causes keep them in power--whether each dues-payer agrees with the cause or not.

Collective bargaining is not the problem, the leadership structure is. Time and again, we see the loudest, most radical, and charismatic guys elevated (not at the low-levels, so much as the mid/upper-leadership levels), and once there, their job becomes how to gin up as much furor and political force from their members as possible. It keeps the group united, and keeps the honchos in command. Might even bring in some extra money on top of dues. It's not terribly different from the Crusades of old in this respect.

I'm sure there is a small, locally-run union somewhere that isn't yet pandering to the highest reaches of power, and still represents the interests of the members. The massive, aglomerated ones are the monsters that have taken on a will of their own.

TCB
Sounds a lot like shareholders in a big corporation to me.
Which is to be expected when this country encourages and promotes the growth of big corporate interests. The corporations have bought and paid for the Republicans in office. The unions, not wanting to be left behind, started buying Democrats.

and here we are today. The middle class, hoping the scraps they leave us will be enough to feed our families.

X-Rap

March 23, 2013, 02:28 PM

I can't think of of a "workers paradise" that exists that isn't a parisite to capitalism. Certainly can't think of one that honors individual rights.

rpchevy02

March 23, 2013, 02:36 PM

Make no mistake,just because you are a union member does not mean you don't support the 2nd amendment and gun owners rights,key word here being rights. You have a right to be union as much as you have 2nd amendment rights. Be careful of those who would strip you of your union rights,they are no better than the gun controllers,only a different agenda with much the same tactics

MachIVshooter

March 23, 2013, 07:46 PM

Be careful of those who would strip you of your union rights,they are no better than the gun controllers,only a different agenda with much the same tactics

What part of the constitution enumerates the right to unionize?

It absolutely computes.
The anarchist believes the individual is sovereign above all else. The state is a construct that ends up reducing the liberties of all involved. States are founded for various reasons with varying intentions but it always ends up reducing the individual and blunts his/her potential.

Have you been paying attention for the last half century? The democrat platform is anathema to liberty. The modern progressive liberal democrat platform believes in the collective as a the primary, with individuals existing for the benefit of the collective, and being granted certain privileges as a reward for their contribution.

There is a party that leans toward anarchy, with the recognition that there is an important role for limited government. This is the libertarian party, to which I belong.

arizona_cards_11

March 23, 2013, 07:55 PM

Non-Union and vote on other issues.

I would never vote for someone that is pro gun-control......but I will certainly vote against someone who is 'pro gun-ownership' and fails in other areas.

joeschmoe

March 23, 2013, 08:09 PM

What part of the constitution enumerates the right to unionize?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

http://constitution.org/billofr_.htm

whtsmoke

March 23, 2013, 09:53 PM

didnt the unions support and reccomend to the members to support asnd vote for obama, which would be a vote against the 2nd?

john1911

March 23, 2013, 10:38 PM

Unions are one of the main fundraising arms of the Democrat party. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Billions of "working man's" dollars going to those that want to destroy what the "working man" is supposedly working towards.
Outside of fundraising for the DNC, unions exist to benefit the union. Funny thing, all the pro-union, anti-business people would flip out if they knew how much their union bosses where actually making off them. Union members love nothing bitching about how much those evil, fat-cat capitalist earn while paying their over seers as much (or more) than the evil business owners.
And just for the record, I despise all unions. From trade unions to civil servant unions. They all serve to promote mediocrity and punish hard work. I also view all those "proud union members" as nothing but useful idiots, willingly bankrolling the destruction of our country. And, I wish those "forced" union members would sack up and kick the union out. But, that's just my take on it as a former union member.

ironworkerwill

March 23, 2013, 11:16 PM

The union bigwigs don't bother trying to Influence my local's political views any more. They have in the past, but currently we get more support from the Republicans in Alabama's state house and senate. Figure that one.

DammitBoy

March 24, 2013, 10:08 AM

That may have been true to some extent even more so in the last decade in which the unions have lost much in the private sector but the new union members work for the gov. Termination of teachers, postal and the others that make up the majority of collective bargaining is very hard.

I would also submit that those who garner pay, retirement or entitlement from a gov entity probably have a biased vote that while it may not show up as a majority of members here, would in a poll of the man on the street.

I was speaking of private sector jobs, specifically the work I do. I don't consider govt employees to be workers.

john1911

March 24, 2013, 10:42 AM

The union bigwigs don't bother trying to Influence my local's political views any more. They have in the past, but currently we get more support from the Republicans in Alabama's state house and senate. Figure that one.

No mean feat to figure that out, your vote doesn't matter enough in the grand scheme for the bigwigs to worry about. Your dues are more valuable than your vote. You=1 vote, your dues=5 or more votes.

One of these days, I'm going to write down my stories from my union days. Be a masterpiece of fraud, deception, lies, bribes and crooked politics.

Pilot

March 24, 2013, 10:52 AM

john1911 said it. Now, figure out how public sector unions are not the ultimate conflict of interest and I'll buy you a beverage of your choice.

Public sector unions are very anti 2A, and are funded solely by YOUR tax dollars. Therefore, you have absolutely no choice but to support anti 2A, statist candidates with your hard earned money. Chew on that one for a while if you want to get upset.

AlbertH

March 24, 2013, 01:39 PM

I have no hate for the Unions or the good people in the Unions. What I truly hate and I think at least "some" of the hard working Union members would agree, is the Socialist nature of the Unions.

But let's not turn this into a Union bashing thread.

.

That and the politics involved happened a long while ago, So much for guns and THR, eh folks!!!!!!!!

Nanook

March 24, 2013, 02:22 PM

Seems a lot of union members want to say the don't vote the "union way". Guess what, you are in a minority (if you're being truthful). For every member that doesn't vote the "union way" there are probably 10+ that do. On top of that, you are buying even more "union way" votes with your dues and PAC contributions.

That's real High Road. You're basically calling us liars and you don't even know me.

Every syllable in my post is the truth, whether your world view allows you to believe it or not.

There are not enough union members in this country to put the anti-freedom types into office. Union members are outnumbered by at least 8 or 9 to 1 in almost every field. The construction trades at one time were over 80% union, now they are under 25%.

It wasn't union members who voted Obama and his ilk into office, it was everybody else. Deal with it as you look into the mirror.