And the lofo's (low information voters) keep putting these clownshoes back into office. Republicans aren't really any better either.

VFFTSGT

03-23-2013, 07:32 AM

And the lofo's (low information voters) keep putting these clownshoes back into office. Republicans aren't really any better either.

True story.

The propaganda machines in this country have succeeded and the sad thing is Americans have no clue they are victims of propaganda.

It all starts with education....I found this thought provoking:

http://youtu.be/okPnDZ1Txlo

Don't let the title fool you...watch the entire thing. It's only 8 minutes of your life.

Robert F. Dorr

03-23-2013, 08:07 AM

And the lofo's (low information voters) keep putting these clownshoes back into office. Republicans aren't really any better either.

Those lofo mofos come from a public that is increasingly illiterate, ignorant and apathetic. In a better-informed citizenry with a higher level of education, there would have been an armed revolution by now. Republicans = bad. Democrats = bad.

VFFTSGT

03-23-2013, 08:13 AM

Those lofo mofos come from a public that is increasingly illiterate, ignorant and apathetic. In a better-informed citizenry with a higher level of education, there would have been an armed revolution by now. Republicans = bad. Democrats = bad.

Finally, you say both parties are bad.

It's not about needing a higher level of education; it's have an education in the first place versus a brainwashing. Watch the video I posted earlier and these:

History of education in America:

Part 1: http://youtu.be/hhclWco8fA8

Part 2: http://youtu.be/VeJJvtMx1-M

Part 3: http://youtu.be/wn8NEcmSOJo

Pueblo

03-23-2013, 08:41 AM

We're pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to other countries and the VP is running up $500k a night hotel bills.

Before we slam Biden (who I can't stand), for comparison let's take a looksy at some of Dick Cheney's hotel bills while he was VPOTUS.

RobotChicken

03-23-2013, 12:14 PM

Those lofo mofos come from a public that is increasingly illiterate, ignorant and apathetic. In a better-informed citizenry with a higher level of education, there would have been an armed revolution by now. Republicans = bad. Democrats = bad.
:clock The 'dumbing down of America' is right up that 'PC Marxism line'. I think Thomas Jefferson missed that, or couldn't imagine lawyers' intentionally destroying our country to push another agenda through to meet a totally different view of his vision, even though he said;"the end result would be Chaos.":noidea

Greg

03-23-2013, 12:28 PM

True story.

The propaganda machines in this country have succeeded and the sad thing is Americans have no clue they are victims of propaganda.

It all starts with education....I found this thought provoking:

http://youtu.be/okPnDZ1Txlo

Don't let the title fool you...watch the entire thing. It's only 8 minutes of your life.

Growing up, I attended a couple, different, parochial elementary schools. More times, than I can remember, the nuns would write in the comments section, on the back of the report card, the word, "incorrigible."

Why should we fund military aid to Jordan when we're forcing to make drastic cuts to our own military?

What sequestration?

CSARmedic

03-23-2013, 02:00 PM

Before we slam Biden (who I can't stand), for comparison let's take a looksy at some of Dick Cheney's hotel bills while he was VPOTUS.

Tru Dat. The "Cheney Administration" was no better in it's abuse of the office.

Pueblo

03-23-2013, 03:18 PM

Why should we fund military aid to Jordan when we're forcing to make drastic cuts to our own military?

What sequestration?

Because Jordan is an important strategic partner and stabilizing force in the region... adult stuff, you wouldn't understand.

Quixotic

03-23-2013, 03:33 PM

Before we slam Biden (who I can't stand), for comparison let's take a looksy at some of Dick Cheney's hotel bills while he was VPOTUS.

Cheney didn't stay in hotels, he stayed in a black, pure O2 filled, ball-like chamber on the flagship.

OtisRNeedleman

03-23-2013, 04:28 PM

And the lofo's (low information voters) keep putting these clownshoes back into office. Republicans aren't really any better either. "Low information voters"...a new politically correct term for idiots.

giggawatt

03-23-2013, 06:44 PM

Because Jordan is an important strategic partner and stabilizing force in the region... adult stuff, you wouldn't understand.

I can't even respond to you because

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/249/839/14f.jpg

grimreaper

03-23-2013, 07:24 PM

What's wrong with military aid to Jordan? And is the VPOTUS no longer allowed to have a security detail?

Is this a serious question?

grimreaper

03-23-2013, 07:27 PM

That's why I like the term "lofo's". Kinda implies the mofo insult as well.

Banned

03-23-2013, 07:33 PM

We're pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to other countries and the VP is running up $500k a night hotel bills.

Jordan is actually one of the very few countries that it makes sense to give money to... they're almost the only country in that region that doesn't have their heads up their ass.

Is this a serious question?

...Why wouldn't it be? You seemed to be implying he spent all that money himself... when in reality that was probably the bill for the entire entourage that was with him - administrative staff, security, etc...

And the lofo's (low information voters) keep putting these clownshoes back into office. Republicans aren't really any better either.

Pray tell, who they should have voted for? Mitt "47%" Romney and Paul "Catfood" Ryan?

grimreaper

03-23-2013, 07:34 PM

Meanwhile, back in Washington, the Senate decides to finally pass a budget for the first time in 4 years by a 50-49 vote. Did these tools get serious about getting spending under control and reducing the deficit you ask? Well of course they didn't. Their budget increases taxes, increases spending and NEVER balances. Business as usual.

Jordan is actually one of the very few countries that it makes sense to give money to... they're almost the only country in that region that doesn't have their heads up their ass.

...Why wouldn't it be? You seemed to be implying he spent all that money himself... when in reality that was probably the bill for the entire entourage that was with him - administrative staff, security, etc...

Pray tell, who they should have voted for? Mitt "47%" Romney and Paul "Catfood" Ryan?

Wait, weren't you the one who has his panties in a bunch because of the money we give Israel and are now trying to justify this?

For 1 night? Yup, no waste there.

At this point I would settle for someone who agrees we shouldn't be harming our own military readiness while giving hundreds of millions of dollars to other countries.

tiredretiredE7

03-23-2013, 07:43 PM

"Low information voters"...a new politically correct term for idiots.
Sir the term is "useful idiots".

Banned

03-23-2013, 07:47 PM

Wait, weren't you the one who has his panties in a bunch because of the money we give Israel and are now trying to justify this?

Ah, there's a good reason to give someone hundreds of millions of tax dollars.

Even including Israel, Egypt and Pakistan, the total foreign aid expenditure is less than 1% of the budget

What's 1% of $3.7 Trillion? Money that could be better spent here. Or here's an even better idea...we don't spend it at all considering we are borrowing it to begin with.

Praytell how are we "harming our own military readiness"? Are we less "ready" than we used to be? Ready for what exactly?

Are you honestly saying that you have felt zero mission impact from sequestration? If that's true, I guess they can get rid of your job since it apparently wouldn't be missed anyway.

MACHINE666

03-23-2013, 08:03 PM

Flame these douchebags on their own home page...."We Survived Bush, You Will Survive Obama"

https://www.facebook.com/WSBYSO

Many days I leave that page with a headache, since most the Democrats there are so damn douchey. I do my part and attack their stupidity with facts and news articles that debunk their crap....I encourage everyone here to do likewise.

grimreaper

03-23-2013, 08:14 PM

Flame these douchebags on their own home page...."We Survived Bush, You Will Survive Obama"

https://www.facebook.com/WSBYSO

Many days I leave that page with a headache, since most the Democrats there are so damn douchey. I do my part and attack their stupidity with facts and news articles that debunk their crap....I encourage everyone here to do likewise.

Ugh, that place is dripping with lofo's that couldn't buy a clue. You would have better luck nailing jello to the wall than talking any sense into those idiots.

Airborne

03-23-2013, 08:24 PM

and the VP is running up $500k a night hotel bills.

I guess the vice president of the united states of america should be driving around in a honda civic and staying at the econolodge?

grimreaper

03-23-2013, 08:29 PM

I guess the vice president of the united states of america should be driving around in a honda civic and staying at the econolodge?

Exaggerate much? Who suggested that? Do you honestly think it should cost $500k a NIGHT?

efmbman

03-23-2013, 09:24 PM

You would have better luck nailing jello to the wall...

Nice! That is definitely going into my regular rotation.

Exaggerate much? Who suggested that? Do you honestly think it should cost $500k a NIGHT?

It does seems excessive, but from most of the accounts I have read about this incident it just about right. I have even seen staffers from Republican administrations say that this amount is not excessive for this type of trip. However, considering the budget crunch we are in, I will say that regardless of if this is excessive or not it probably should not have happened considering the cost. Many will say that this amount is just a drop in the bucket, but any chance to save should be taken advantage of.

Airborne

03-23-2013, 09:45 PM

Exaggerate much? Who suggested that? Do you honestly think it should cost $500k a NIGHT?

Its not just him, its his crew as well. They probably had to buy out the whole hotel for security purposes and potentially things adjacent to it too.

Banned

03-24-2013, 02:40 AM

Ah, there's a good reason to give someone hundreds of millions of tax dollars.

So you're an isolationist? I'm generally critical of our foreign policy, but I by no means support sticking our hands in the sand and ignore what's happening in the rest of the world.

What's 1% of $3.7 Trillion? Money that could be better spent here. Or here's an even better idea...we don't spend it at all considering we are borrowing it to begin with.

I find it interesting that you're condemning the government for not keeping the military "mission ready", and simultaneously demanding we cut foreign aid.

Are you honestly saying that you have felt zero mission impact from sequestration? If that's true, I guess they can get rid of your job since it apparently wouldn't be missed anyway.

Let's hold off the violin for just a minute - yes, the military is downsizing. It makes zero sense to maintain a military of this size and magnitude with the wars winding down. And by the way, you're a little late cutting my job, because my job - my whole unit - has already been cut, at the end of the fiscal year... which means I get to go find a new one.

So yes, I'm feeling the sequestration... but I'm not pretending its not needed.

Again, I find it hilarious you whine about deficits and then gripe that the largest military in the world is getting some cuts.

grimreaper

03-24-2013, 07:51 PM

Make it another $500 million to the Palestinian Authority. Hundreds of millions to people who hate us. Lovely.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4360135,00.html

US unblocks $500M for Palestinians
State Department spokeswoman Nuland says aid money frozen by Congress for months freed up as PA faces worst economic crisis in years

Banned

03-24-2013, 08:04 PM

Make it another $500 million to the Palestinian Authority. Hundreds of millions to people who hate us. Lovely.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4360135,00.html

Yes, funding humanitarian aid for people starving in ghettos. Horrid.

Though personally, I think it would make more sense to prevent Israel from illegally destroying Palestinian infrastructure in the first place, instead of spending money to rebuild it over and over again.

RobotChicken

03-24-2013, 08:08 PM

Make it another $500 million to the Palestinian Authority. Hundreds of millions to people who hate us. Lovely.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4360135,00.html
:spy Now they will start upgrading their rockets and start a new armed drone fleet. Way to go, as they might as well start a 'TA' program for their fighters so they can become 'Professional'. :clock

grimreaper

03-24-2013, 08:16 PM

Yes, funding humanitarian aid for people starving in ghettos. Horrid.

Though personally, I think it would make more sense to prevent Israel from illegally destroying Palestinian infrastructure in the first place, instead of spending money to rebuild it over and over again.

Pretty sure we have people starving in ghettos here.

Here's a better idea...how about all the Arab nations that claim to support the Palestinians pony up the dough and support them.

RobotChicken

03-24-2013, 08:28 PM

Pretty sure we have people starving in ghettos here.

Here's a better idea...how about all the Arab nations that claim to support the Palestinians pony up the dough and support them.
:spy They only use them for a buffer/human shield against Israel, 'cannon fodder', more they reproduce, the better. Numbers count. Cost more and more to contain them, kinda like America's prison system....:sad

Banned

03-24-2013, 08:38 PM

Pretty sure we have people starving in ghettos here.

Here's a better idea...how about all the Arab nations that claim to support the Palestinians pony up the dough and support them.

Or we could stop giving Israel weapons to kill the Palestinians with..................

I bet the Zionists would change their attitude real quick if they realized we wouldn't be there anymore to fight their wars for them.

:spy They only use them for a buffer/human shield against Israel, 'cannon fodder', more they reproduce, the better. Numbers count. Cost more and more to contain them, kinda like America's prison system....:sad

Good point... the Palestinians are in many ways similar to the Jews - that disliked minority group that gets expelled from their home countries. I agree with your statement that they are a sort of buffer against the Israelis... it also helps that we're paying these countries to not go to war against Israel. If we stopped doing that, I'll bet Israeli aggression would end very quickly - with the realization that if they go around pissing the Arabs off, they get to fight the ensuing war completely unsupported by us.

RobotChicken

03-24-2013, 08:57 PM

:thumb It would be the 'Mother of all battles' (WW-III) to the end for sure. The Generals all better have their 'PC stuff' locked up in their lockers and weapon systems 'loaded and Cocked' for war.

Banned

03-24-2013, 09:08 PM

:thumb It would be the 'Mother of all battles' (WW-III) to the end for sure. The Generals all better have their 'PC stuff' locked up in their lockers and weapon systems 'loaded and Cocked' for war.

I think it would be a public embarrassment if we had WWIII over Palestine and Israel. Though to be fair, the first world war was fought for pretty silly reasons too - most wars are.

grimreaper

03-24-2013, 11:16 PM

Or we could stop giving Israel weapons to kill the Palestinians with..................

I bet the Zionists would change their attitude real quick if they realized we wouldn't be there anymore to fight their wars for them.

Good point... the Palestinians are in many ways similar to the Jews - that disliked minority group that gets expelled from their home countries. I agree with your statement that they are a sort of buffer against the Israelis... it also helps that we're paying these countries to not go to war against Israel. If we stopped doing that, I'll bet Israeli aggression would end very quickly - with the realization that if they go around pissing the Arabs off, they get to fight the ensuing war completely unsupported by us.

Joe doesn't know his history very well. Tell me what has happened everytime Israel has been attacked?

So, apparently, Joe is OK with giving money to people who hate us, but not to our friend and ally in the middle east. Gotcha.

For the record, I would be fine with Israel not getting anything from us. They will be just fine. They've fought off aggression from all their neighbors before and they will do it again if need be.

So tell me Joe...why are we borrowing money to give to people that hate us?

Robert F. Dorr

03-25-2013, 12:38 AM

I don't know how Joe feels about it but the question of whether the United States should provide aid to Israel is a legitimate one.

Banned

03-25-2013, 12:47 AM

Joe doesn't know his history very well. Tell me what has happened everytime Israel has been attacked?

So, apparently, Joe is OK with giving money to people who hate us, but not to our friend and ally in the middle east. Gotcha.

For the record, I would be fine with Israel not getting anything from us. They will be just fine. They've fought off aggression from all their neighbors before and they will do it again if need be.

So tell me Joe...why are we borrowing money to give to people that hate us?

This is a very simple concept - I have no issue with foreign aid - its a great idea to foster good relations abroad. What I object to is giving foreign aid to war criminals who indiscriminately blow up women and children and openly practice apartheid.

Now see - that wasn't so hard to get, was it? Hopefully....

And yes - I agree - Israel would be fine... they would also have to quit slaughtering people like cattle so they can grab more land... and (amazingly) people might not despise us so much.

JD2780

03-25-2013, 02:25 AM

This is a very simple concept - I have no issue with foreign aid - its a great idea to foster good relations abroad. What I object to is giving foreign aid to war criminals who indiscriminately blow up women and children and openly practice apartheid.

Now see - that wasn't so hard to get, was it? Hopefully....

And yes - I agree - Israel would be fine... they would also have to quit slaughtering people like cattle so they can grab more land... and (amazingly) people might not despise us so much.

You mean the land that was given to them, and folks try to keep taking from them. Go figure.

grimreaper

03-25-2013, 02:34 AM

This is a very simple concept - I have no issue with foreign aid - its a great idea to foster good relations abroad. What I object to is giving foreign aid to war criminals who indiscriminately blow up women and children and openly practice apartheid.

Now see - that wasn't so hard to get, was it? Hopefully....

And yes - I agree - Israel would be fine... they would also have to quit slaughtering people like cattle so they can grab more land... and (amazingly) people might not despise us so much.

Then you just said yourself that the Palestinian Authority should not be getting any money from us either. Do I need to give you the laundry list of terrorist acts carried out by Yasser Arafat and the PLO? Or Hamas or Hezbollah who are able to operate within Lebanon and Palestinian territory and launch rocket attacks against Israel with impunity?

Guess they get a pass, huh?

JD2780

03-25-2013, 02:40 AM

Then you just said yourself that the Palestinian Authority should not be getting any money from us either. Do I need to give you the laundry list of terrorist acts carried out by Yasser Arafat and the PLO?

Guess they get a pass, huh?

Hey now, you're using logic. The Palestinians are just being bullied by Israel. You're silly with your facts.

tiredretiredE7

03-25-2013, 03:08 AM

Its not just him, its his crew as well. They probably had to buy out the whole hotel for security purposes and potentially things adjacent to it too.

So add another flight crew and the President and/or Vice President can sleep on their planes and the crews can relieve each other in mid flight. Saves atleast $400K.

garhkal

03-25-2013, 04:36 AM

Troubling times....absolutely pathetic.

Exactly.. just like companies who fire their staff cause of poor profits but give their CEO's a golden handshake as they retire..

But personally i feel we need to cut off the foreign aid we are giving out TILL we get our own house in order.. Then we can go back to worrying about all the rest.

What's wrong with military aid to Jordan? And is the VPOTUS no longer allowed to have a security detail?

The fact that we are giving them non urgent aid when we are cutting our own military budgets.

I guess the vice president of the united states of america should be driving around in a honda civic and staying at the econolodge?

Maybe if he didn;t take his entire damn staff, it would not cost that much..

Its like when those people fly on junkets to discuss world hunger, and have 100 a plate lobster tails and such crap.. IMO wasteful to the extreme.
Heck, what the hell was biden doing in paris/london?

Yes, funding humanitarian aid for people starving in ghettos. Horrid.

Though personally, I think it would make more sense to prevent Israel from illegally destroying Palestinian infrastructure in the first place, instead of spending money to rebuild it over and over again.
Pretty sure we have people starving in ghettos here.

Here's a better idea...how about all the Arab nations that claim to support the Palestinians pony up the dough and support them.

Exactly.. We have starving and homeless here.. Why are we spending millions on other peoples problems?
Why not tell the Palestinians stop buying so many damn rockets and feed your own people?

This is a very simple concept - I have no issue with foreign aid - its a great idea to foster good relations abroad. .

How much good will has all the millions we spent in Pakistan, Palestine, Lybia etc brought us?? Last i saw, they still riot and burn our flag every chance they damn get.

RobotChicken

03-25-2013, 04:42 AM

:usa2 Charge 'em $100 million in any aid for every country when one of 'em burns one! Cut down their food a little so they don't have money or energy to breed or start fires...:usa

Banned

03-25-2013, 05:36 AM

Then you just said yourself that the Palestinian Authority should not be getting any money from us either. Do I need to give you the laundry list of terrorist acts carried out by Yasser Arafat and the PLO? Or Hamas or Hezbollah who are able to operate within Lebanon and Palestinian territory and launch rocket attacks against Israel with impunity?

Guess they get a pass, huh?

I somehow don't find it surprising that you think giving children medical supplies is morally equivalent to giving a government fighter-jets and explosives.

Banned

03-25-2013, 05:37 AM

Exactly.. just like companies who fire their staff cause of poor profits but give their CEO's a golden handshake as they retire..

But personally i feel we need to cut off the foreign aid we are giving out TILL we get our own house in order.. Then we can go back to worrying about all the rest.

The fact that we are giving them non urgent aid when we are cutting our own military budgets.

Maybe if he didn;t take his entire damn staff, it would not cost that much..

Its like when those people fly on junkets to discuss world hunger, and have 100 a plate lobster tails and such crap.. IMO wasteful to the extreme.
Heck, what the hell was biden doing in paris/london?

Exactly.. We have starving and homeless here.. Why are we spending millions on other peoples problems?
Why not tell the Palestinians stop buying so many damn rockets and feed your own people?

How much good will has all the millions we spent in Pakistan, Palestine, Lybia etc brought us?? Last i saw, they still riot and burn our flag every chance they damn get.

I would figure foreign aid would be VERY effective at winning them over if we quit bombing them...

Pueblo

03-25-2013, 10:26 AM

You mean the land that was given to them, and folks try to keep taking from them. Go figure.

The continued construction of Jewish settlements in areas the Israelis ostensibly ceded to the Palestinians almost 20 years ago is a current and future security issue for all involved.

Robert F. Dorr

03-25-2013, 10:36 AM

The continued construction of Jewish settlements in areas the Israelis ostensibly ceded to the Palestinians almost 20 years ago is a current and future security issue for all involved.

Is, indeed. Should stop.

Pueblo

03-25-2013, 10:58 AM

Make it another $500 million to the Palestinian Authority. Hundreds of millions to people who hate us. Lovely.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4360135,00.html

Have you ever been to the West Bank or participated in any activity that would qualify the extraordinary claim that Palestinians (particularly the Fatah-controlled West Bank) collectively hate Americans? Even if that were the case, I tend to agree with the grown-ups when they calculate that the Palestinian Authority has been effective, though not perfect, in fighting extremists, maintaining order within a relatively moderate West Bank. What's more, they're engaged in a cold war of competing ideologies and influence with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. So yes, a stable Palestinian Authority is in our best interests. If you see things differently, I'm interested to hear your narrative of how things ought to be and how that benefits the United States in the long term.

JD2780

03-25-2013, 01:17 PM

Have you ever been to the West Bank or participated in any activity that would qualify the extraordinary claim that Palestinians (particularly the Fatah-controlled West Bank) collectively hate Americans? Even if that were the case, I tend to agree with the grown-ups when they calculate that the Palestinian Authority has been effective, though not perfect, in fighting extremists, maintaining order within a relatively moderate West Bank. What's more, they're engaged in a cold war of competing ideologies and influence with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. So yes, a stable Palestinian Authority is in our best interests. If you see things differently, I'm interested to hear your narrative of how things ought to be and how that benefits the United States in the long term.

Yea it's not like the Israelis were pushed around the region, enslaved by almost every culture in the region. My guess is they. id still be a little pissed off after over 2000 yrs of being hated. Blacks were enslaved here for what a few hundred years, and some of them still have chips on their shoulders.

I guess you folks just feel Hamas is misunderstood.

Pueblo

03-25-2013, 02:48 PM

Yea it's not like the Israelis were pushed around the region, enslaved by almost every culture in the region. My guess is they. id still be a little pissed off after over 2000 yrs of being hated. Blacks were enslaved here for what a few hundred years, and some of them still have chips on their shoulders.

I guess you folks just feel Hamas is misunderstood.

It is precisely because I despise Hamas that I feel aid to the Fatah-controlled elements in the West Bank is justified. And I'm interested to hear your take on how West Bank settlements enhance the security for Israel that you and I both desire?

Banned

03-25-2013, 03:18 PM

Yea it's not like the Israelis were pushed around the region, enslaved by almost every culture in the region. My guess is they. id still be a little pissed off after over 2000 yrs of being hated. Blacks were enslaved here for what a few hundred years, and some of them still have chips on their shoulders.

I guess you folks just feel Hamas is misunderstood.

Thousands of years of being hated? You're really going to use THAT foolish argument? If I recall correctly - yes, the Hebrews were enslaved quite a few times... but they enslaved and massacred quite a few people themselves...

JD2780

03-25-2013, 03:53 PM

Thousands of years of being hated? You're really going to use THAT foolish argument? If I recall correctly - yes, the Hebrews were enslaved quite a few times... but they enslaved and massacred quite a few people themselves...

Foolish you say? Just foolish facts getting in the way of your little argument.

Banned

03-25-2013, 04:04 PM

Foolish you say? Just foolish facts getting in the way of your little argument.

WTF are you talking about? What facts? What the hell are you talking about?

I bet if the roles were reversed you would be singing a different tune.

JD2780

03-25-2013, 04:44 PM

WTF are you talking about? What facts? What the hell are you talking about?

I bet if the roles were reversed you would be singing a different tune.

What roles? Like if Israelites weren't enslaved and beaten?

Historical facts Joe. Those facts. Pick up a history book.

WeaponsTSGT

03-25-2013, 06:17 PM

Let's hold off the violin for just a minute - yes, the military is downsizing. It makes zero sense to maintain a military of this size and magnitude with the wars winding down. And by the way, you're a little late cutting my job, because my job - my whole unit - has already been cut, at the end of the fiscal year... which means I get to go find a new one.

So yes, I'm feeling the sequestration... but I'm not pretending its not needed.

Again, I find it hilarious you whine about deficits and then gripe that the largest military in the world is getting some cuts.

Are you retarded? We are not downsizing because a war is winding down, matter of fact in 2000 we were a much larger service than we are now, and have downsized every single year but 3 since 2000. We are downsizing because D.C. can't prioritize what bills need to be paid.

thread_cop

03-25-2013, 06:22 PM

Are you retarded? We are not downsizing because a war is winding down, matter of fact in 2000 we were a much larger service than we are now, and have downsized every single year but 3 since 2000. We are downsizing because D.C. can't prioritize what bills need to be paid.

Be careful, you'll get banned for "name-calling" as sandsjames did. Oh, and it appears JB also got banned. Guess he was name-calling too.

grimreaper

03-25-2013, 08:09 PM

I somehow don't find it surprising that you think giving children medical supplies is morally equivalent to giving a government fighter-jets and explosives.

Totally dodged the question. I'll take that dodge as a "yes" you gave the terrorism directed by Yasser Arafat and carrier out by the PLO, and has continued under Hamas and Hezbollah a pass.

grimreaper

03-25-2013, 08:12 PM

Have you ever been to the West Bank or participated in any activity that would qualify the extraordinary claim that Palestinians (particularly the Fatah-controlled West Bank) collectively hate Americans? Even if that were the case, I tend to agree with the grown-ups when they calculate that the Palestinian Authority has been effective, though not perfect, in fighting extremists, maintaining order within a relatively moderate West Bank. What's more, they're engaged in a cold war of competing ideologies and influence with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. So yes, a stable Palestinian Authority is in our best interests. If you see things differently, I'm interested to hear your narrative of how things ought to be and how that benefits the United States in the long term.

Oh, don't know...maybe because they were dancing in the streets following the 9/11 attacks? Unless you're here to tell me that they were celebrating Oktoberfest early....

Pueblo

03-25-2013, 08:27 PM

Oh, don't know...maybe because they were dancing in the streets following the 9/11 attacks? Unless you're here to tell me that they were celebrating Oktoberfest early....

Do I need to explain why that isn't a very scientific way of determining the collective opinion of a people? And does it do anything to refute the fact that Fatah has effectively governed the West Bank relatively peacefully since that time? I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not anecdotal evidence on one occasion with a small subset of then-embattled people satisfies my request for extraordinary evidence of their overall opinion of Americans. I can say from my personal experience that the Jordanian people are known for their hospitality, but the greatest kindness I experienced throughout the country came from those of Palestinian origin. And they knew I was an American... and that anecdotal evidence accompanies the empirical evidence on a larger scale that I've already provided, which most Israelis would agree with.

Pueblo

03-25-2013, 08:33 PM

Totally dodged the question. I'll take that dodge as a "yes" you gave the terrorism directed by Yasser Arafat and carrier out by the PLO, and has continued under Hamas and Hezbollah a pass.

The problem with this is that Arafat is dead, and his successor as head of the PLO's political wing has been effective in banishing the latter groups from the West Bank, though he doesn't have the power to pursue them in Gaza.

grimreaper

03-25-2013, 08:38 PM

Do I need to explain why that isn't a very scientific way of determining the collective opinion of a people? And does it do anything to refute the fact that Fatah has effectively governed the West Bank relatively peacefully since that time? I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not anecdotal evidence on one occasion with a small subset of then-embattled people satisfies my request for extraordinary evidence of their overall opinion of Americans. I can say from my personal experience that the Jordanian people are known for their hospitality, but the greatest kindness I experienced throughout the country came from those of Palestinian origin. And they knew I was an American... and that anecdotal evidence accompanies the empirical evidence on a larger scale that I've already provided, which most Israelis would agree with.

Sorry, I haven't conducted a poll. Have you? You call my evidence "anecdotal" and then proceed to talk about your personal experience. "Relatively peaceful"? I guess you don't think that the fact Israel has built huge walls and barriers to keep out would-be suicide bombers has anything to do with that? All that matters to me is that if you are getting our tax dollars, you had better be grateful or you can go pound sand...literally.

This ain't a couple of people either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7TfLPgZQGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

grimreaper

03-25-2013, 08:44 PM

The problem with this is that Arafat is dead, and his successor as head of the PLO's political wing has been effective in banishing the latter groups from the West Bank, though he doesn't have the power to pursue them in Gaza.

Yeah, and let's ignore the fact that the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization as their majority government in 2006. Nothing to see here.

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

JD2780

03-25-2013, 11:20 PM

My experience with Israelis has been nothing but peaceful. Great folks.

Pueblo

03-26-2013, 04:34 AM

Yeah, and let's ignore the fact that the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization as their majority government in 2006. Nothing to see here.

How many times must it be expressed for you to understand that the $500 million in question is going to an organization diametrically opposed to Hamas?

grimreaper

03-26-2013, 04:53 AM

How many times must it be expressed for you to understand that the $500 million in question is going to an organization diametrically opposed to Hamas?

Yet you just got done explaining how great the Palestinian people are and THEY are the ones who voted in Hamas. Sorry, they don't deserve a dime from us.

Pueblo

03-26-2013, 05:39 AM

Yet you just got done explaining how great the Palestinian people are and THEY are the ones who voted in Hamas. Sorry, they don't deserve a dime from us.

While it is true that less than half of the Palestinians voted for Hamas, almost an equal number of Palestinians voted for Fatah. All told, in 2006 Palestinians voted against Hamas on a scale of 5:4. Again, do you have a compelling reason why Fatah receiving $500 million is counter to US interests? Because by my estimate (and you're welcome to disagree on factual terms), they are precisely who we ought to support in order to better marginalize and possibly even fight Hamas. If, however, your justification for denying aid in spite of measurable benefits to US foreign policy is something as nebulous and trivial as "they don't like us," the best suggestion I have for you is day care.

Pueblo

03-26-2013, 05:46 AM

My experience with Israelis has been nothing but peaceful. Great folks.

Terrific. And it's just as outrageous to me when people renege on their agreements with Israel as it is when Israel reneges on agreements with the Palestinians.

JD2780

03-26-2013, 11:15 AM

Terrific. And it's just as outrageous to me when people renege on their agreements with Israel as it is when Israel reneges on agreements with the Palestinians.

What did I renege on? What about when Palestinians lob rockets at Israel?

Pueblo

03-26-2013, 11:27 AM

What did I renege on? What about when Palestinians lob rockets at Israel?

You didn't renege on anything, nor did I suggest you did. The Israelis continually renege on the Oslo Accords by building settlements in what they've agreed is land set aside for a future Palestinian state. The Palestinians have reneged on that same agreement by attacking Israel in instances like the one you mentioned, though I would argue that current leadership of the Palestinian Authority has made a good faith effort to rein in attacks within the areas under their control. The difference between the two breaches is that the latter is much easier to stop and reverse than the former. If anyone here doesn't understand, I'm happy to provide an explanation why illegal housing construction is more toxic to the peace process than sporadic illegal attacks.

JD2780

03-26-2013, 11:40 AM

You didn't renege on anything, nor did I suggest you did. The Israelis continually renege on the Oslo Accords by building settlements in what they've agreed is land set aside for a future Palestinian state. The Palestinians have reneged on that same agreement by attacking Israel in instances like the one you mentioned, though I would argue that current leadership of the Palestinian Authority has made a good faith effort to rein in attacks within the areas under their control. The difference between the two breaches is that the latter is much easier to stop and reverse than the former. If anyone here doesn't understand, I'm happy to provide an explanation why illegal housing construction is more toxic to the peace process than sporadic illegal attacks.

I wasn't sure what you were saying. I was just making sure I didn't word something that would lead you to think so.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-26-2013, 01:20 PM

Or we could stop giving Israel weapons to kill the Palestinians with..................

I bet the Zionists would change their attitude real quick if they realized we wouldn't be there anymore to fight their wars for them.You are still on this trip that with out us, Isreal would be defenseless? You are as bad as the conservatives that say we should give them more support so they can protect themselves. The amazing part it, our support is like 1% of their GDP and they can provide for themselves to either continue the defense of their citizens from random Palistien rockets, or not. But how about we just say we need to cut all funding to the middle east, and the rest of the world through the bases in areas no longer needed. We can be prepared with our troops here in the US. Who would attack us if our military wasnt so spread out? They are already scared of the civilian population being armed, how about the military here too?

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-26-2013, 01:42 PM

This is a very simple concept - I have no issue with foreign aid - its a great idea to foster good relations abroad. What I object to is giving foreign aid to war criminals who indiscriminately blow up women and children and openly practice apartheid.

Now see - that wasn't so hard to get, was it? Hopefully....

And yes - I agree - Israel would be fine... they would also have to quit slaughtering people like cattle so they can grab more land... and (amazingly) people might not despise us so much.
But this whole argument here you have focused on Isreal while not condeming Palestine. I have seen the people you have argued with agree about stopping the aide to Isreal, but yet havnt seen you say one bad word about Palestine.

JD2780

03-26-2013, 01:46 PM

But this whole argument here you have focused on Isreal while not condeming Palestine. I have seen the people you have argued with agree about stopping the aide to Isreal, but yet havnt seen you say one bad word about Palestine.

Palestine can do no wrong in his eyes. Pretty sure Palestine has blown up women and children with little regard to anything. He tried to say my fact about Israelites being hated for over 2000 yrs wasn't a fact. Pure denial.

Shrike

03-26-2013, 01:46 PM

F--k the "Palestinians". Everyone likes to conveniently forget that they VOLUNTARILY LEFT THE LAND THEY LIVED IN. It was only after Israel's neighboring countries failed to utterly eradicate the Israeli Jews and Arabs that stayed in Israel to defend their country that the people we erroneously call "Palestinians" said "Uh, hey, we know we're a bunch of chickenshits that chose to flee the country to wait until you were all dead so we could come back and live in harmony with the people that killed you, but...uh...that didn't really work out as planned. But...uh...it's water under the bridge, right? Can we have our homes and land back? We're cool, right?"

My ancestors voluntarily up and fled Scotland for Ireland in the 17th Century in order to avoid being horribly murdered by Oliver Cromwell's approaching army. To say that "Palestinians" have some sort of claim to land in Israel is equivalent to saying I should be able to claim land in Scotland.

Again, f--k the "Palestinians".

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-26-2013, 02:13 PM

Palestine can do no wrong in his eyes. Pretty sure Palestine has blown up women and children with little regard to anything. He tried to say my fact about Israelites being hated for over 2000 yrs wasn't a fact. Pure denial.

Palestineans break into Jewish homes and kill infants and children and are celebrated in the street.

TheWife

03-26-2013, 06:58 PM

I really want to know what in the heck made this trip so urgent and compelling that it wasn't competed for best value...
Especially when at every meeting I sit through all I hear is COMPETITION COMPETITION COMPETITION!!!

garhkal

03-26-2013, 07:18 PM

Do I need to explain why that isn't a very scientific way of determining the collective opinion of a people? And does it do anything to refute the fact that Fatah has effectively governed the West Bank relatively peacefully since that time? I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not anecdotal evidence on one occasion with a small subset of then-embattled people satisfies my request for extraordinary evidence of their overall opinion of Americans. I can say from my personal experience that the Jordanian people are known for their hospitality, but the greatest kindness I experienced throughout the country came from those of Palestinian origin. And they knew I was an American... and that anecdotal evidence accompanies the empirical evidence on a larger scale that I've already provided, which most Israelis would agree with.

Don't some of the rocket attacks coming into israel come from the westbank?

I really want to know what in the heck made this trip so urgent and compelling that it wasn't competed for best value...

I would also like to know why he needed so many bloomin aids/assistants etc..

Robert F. Dorr

03-26-2013, 08:54 PM

Speaking of travel by government officials, every time a biggie travels to Afghanistan it's always "unannounced" and they slink into Kabul in the middle of the night. A recent example is a visit by Defense Secretary Hagel. Will we need eleven more years before a U.S. official can announce a trip to Afghanistan in advance and arrive in daylight?

RobotChicken

03-26-2013, 09:20 PM

Speaking of travel by government officials, every time a biggie travels to Afghanistan it's always "unannounced" and they slink into Kabul in the middle of the night. A recent example is a visit by Defense Secretary Hagel. Will we need eleven more years before a U.S. official can announce a trip to Afghanistan in advance and arrive in daylight?

:spy They have 'networks of spies' the CIA can only Dream about from their 'Good 'ole Days'. If you need to go, they beat you to the outhouse and are holding the 'T-paper for you'! OPSEC?? What that? Not over there! :gossip

Pueblo

03-27-2013, 05:09 AM

F--k the "Palestinians". Everyone likes to conveniently forget that they VOLUNTARILY LEFT THE LAND THEY LIVED IN.

You and I must have different definitions of the word voluntary. As I understand it, if a decision is made through violence or the threat of violence, it is not a voluntary decision. Additionally, historians are virtually universal in stating the Israelis forced Palestinians from their homes in 1948, either through force or the threat of force. I'm not passing judgement on the wisdom or righteousness of that decision to expel them, but the claim that Palestinians traded their homes for refugee tents simply because they were bored is a provably false one.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-27-2013, 02:56 PM

You and I must have different definitions of the word voluntary. As I understand it, if a decision is made through violence or the threat of violence, it is not a voluntary decision. Additionally, historians are virtually universal in stating the Israelis forced Palestinians from their homes in 1948, either through force or the threat of force. I'm not passing judgement on the wisdom or righteousness of that decision to expel them, but the claim that Palestinians traded their homes for refugee tents simply because they were bored is a provably false one.

Glad you see it the same way I do. Taxes are collected through the threat of force and as such is stealing.

Pueblo

03-27-2013, 03:00 PM

Glad you see it the same way I do. Taxes are collected through the threat of force and as such is stealing.

I don't and they aren't. Unless there's a recent incident of armed bands of IRS agents we haven't been made aware of...?

Monkey

03-27-2013, 03:14 PM

I don't and they aren't. Unless there's a recent incident of armed bands of IRS agents we haven't been made aware of...?

Don't pay your taxes. When someone shows up at your door to arrest you, check to see if they are armed. Try out bootlegging and see if the ATF guys who come looking for you have guns.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-27-2013, 03:21 PM

I don't and they aren't. Unless there's a recent incident of armed bands of IRS agents we haven't been made aware of...?

The threat of going to jail for not forking over part of your income isnt force? But hey, they do have armed IRS agents or they wouldnt be buying so much ammo. (http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2012/08/28/another-federal-agency-orders-ammunition-by-fred-brownbill/)

I, along with many other patriots and followers of strange happenings enacted by the Federal Government which currently is administered by the Barack Hussein Obama Administration, have been alarmed at many weird and huge firearms, equipment and ammunition buys and also by the Departments that they are ordered for. It appears that every agency has armed divisions, including the IRS, DOE, NOAA and others you would not suspect.

Pueblo

03-27-2013, 06:18 PM

As a member of the military, are you not the happy recipient of what you yourself consider to be stolen goods?

JD2780

03-27-2013, 06:45 PM

As a member of the military, are you not the happy recipient of what you yourself consider to be stolen goods?

It's only threat of violence based off of your definition. He was comparing your definition to reality.

Pueblo

03-27-2013, 07:34 PM

It's only threat of violence based off of your definition. He was comparing your definition to reality.

Oh, I see. I was speaking of a nascent nation's armed forces forcibly removing people from their homes with the threat and use of force as a consequence of their specific religious and cultural group. He confused it with Constitutionally-established revenue collection and the consequences of a failure to follow a law.

JD2780

03-27-2013, 08:03 PM

Oh, I see. I was speaking of a nascent nation's armed forces forcibly removing people from their homes with the threat and use of force as a consequence of their specific religious and cultural group. He confused it with Constitutionally-established revenue collection and the consequences of a failure to follow a law.

All you mentioned was weapons with a threat of force. So he compared the to. Nascent nation? Sorry bro but Israelis believe its I been theirs since before the US was even a pipe dream. They finally given rights to their own state in 1948.

Israelis been getting shit for wanting a place to call home since the dawn of time. Lets keep hating on them and not the Arabs lobbing rockets into their homes though because its the easy thing to do.

Pueblo

03-27-2013, 08:16 PM

All you mentioned was weapons with a threat of force. So he compared the to. Nascent nation? Sorry bro but Israelis believe its I been theirs since before the US was even a pipe dream. They finally given rights to their own state in 1948.

Israelis been getting shit for wanting a place to call home since the dawn of time. Lets keep hating on them and not the Arabs lobbing rockets into their homes though because its the easy thing to do.

None of the above is disputed by anyone here.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-28-2013, 11:42 AM

As a member of the military, are you not the happy recipient of what you yourself consider to be stolen goods?

My paycheck is actually constitutional and is necessary to have some form of tax to cover that service. Now in the beginning, there was no theft tax (income tax), it was all voluntary through sales and if you didnt want to pay taxes, you didnt buy/sell any thing. They still payed off their debt because they werent spending money on things that werent called for in the constitution, so there was little need to steal from peoples paychecks. Your labor is OWNED by the federal and state governments that tax your income, that is either theft or enslavement, take your pick.

Pueblo

03-28-2013, 12:01 PM

My paycheck is actually constitutional and is necessary to have some form of tax to cover that service. Now in the beginning, there was no theft tax (income tax), it was all voluntary through sales and if you didnt want to pay taxes, you didnt buy/sell any thing. They still payed off their debt because they werent spending money on things that werent called for in the constitution, so there was little need to steal from peoples paychecks. Your labor is OWNED by the federal and state governments that tax your income, that is either theft or enslavement, take your pick.

Reactionary pseudonyms for generating the revenue necessary to have a functioning government may seem like fun to write, but they are not an argument in themselves.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-28-2013, 01:22 PM

Reactionary pseudonyms for generating the revenue necessary to have a functioning government may seem like fun to write, but they are not an argument in themselves.

Our founding federal government was never meant to be all inclusive into every aspect of our lives. Its why they did fund scientific experiment to see how fast a shimp could run on a treadmill, or help feed the poor. Our federal government left those decission up to the states, its why the 10th ammendment was put in there. The 16th ammendment was instituted by a big government progressive to pay for a war we shouldnt have been involved in. Wilson saw the mistake Lincoln made in just enacting the income tax for an unjust war, so he used the propaganda he had that played off emotions after a tragedy to convince people that we needed an income tax. Same thing was done with the prohabition and most of these new gun laws. The bigger the government gets, the more it needs to take. Whats to stop them from taking even more as Obamacare starts eating up 100% of our GDP in 10 years?

Banned

03-28-2013, 04:25 PM

F--k the "Palestinians"...

Again, f--k the "Palestinians".

Do you not have an ounce of compassion or regard for human life?

Do you not see anything wrong with continuing to arm and aid a rogue government that openly practices apartheid and carries out Gestapo-style reprisals against the civilian population?

Do you not see anything wrong with putting our own people at increased risk by aiding a rogue government that has managed to alienate virtually the entire world?

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-28-2013, 05:01 PM

Do you not have an ounce of compassion or regard for human life?

Do you not see anything wrong with continuing to arm and aid a rogue government that openly practices apartheid and carries out Gestapo-style reprisals against the civilian population?

Do you not see anything wrong with putting our own people at increased risk by aiding a rogue government that has managed to alienate virtually the entire world?

Rogue government? What makes them "rogue"?

...and welcome back.

Banned

03-28-2013, 05:12 PM

Rogue government? What makes them "rogue"?

Well, if we go off the dictionary definition - "a state that conducts its policy in a dangerously unpredictable way, disregarding international law or diplomacy" - so Israel meets the definition in much the same way as N. Korea... except Israel already has nukes. Which begets the question... why do we condemn and sanction countries like N. Korea and Iran... but support Israel?

...and welcome back.

Nothing like banned camp to increase work productivity.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-28-2013, 05:24 PM

Well, if we go off the dictionary definition - "a state that conducts its policy in a dangerously unpredictable way, disregarding international law or diplomacy" - so Israel meets the definition in much the same way as N. Korea... except Israel already has nukes. Which begets the question... why do we condemn and sanction countries like N. Korea and Iran... but support Israel?

What is Isreal doing that is unpredictable or disregarding international law or diplomacy? Have they attacked another country that didnt provoke them?

JD2780

03-28-2013, 05:24 PM

Well, if we go off the dictionary definition - "a state that conducts its policy in a dangerously unpredictable way, disregarding international law or diplomacy" - so Israel meets the definition in much the same way as N. Korea... except Israel already has nukes. Which begets the question... why do we condemn and sanction countries like N. Korea and Iran... but support Israel?

Nothing like banned camp to increase work productivity.

Oh you you confused rogue with self defense against Palestine. It's ok. You were gone a few days. Time to knock the rust off.

PS: I missed your musk.

Banned

03-28-2013, 05:31 PM

What is Isreal doing that is unpredictable or disregarding international law or diplomacy? Have they attacked another country that didnt provoke them?

Has North Korea? Bear in mind to be a "rogue state" you don't actually need to invade someone. Israel has been extremely aggressive in grabbing land that doesn't belong to them, and ignoring human rights.

Oh you you confused rogue with self defense against Palestine. It's ok. You were gone a few days. Time to knock the rust off.

PS: I missed your musk.

Its hard to read about Israeli bulldozers tearing down Palestinian powerplants and schools... then complaining that some Palestinians get mad and fight back. Frankly, Israel has never been interested in peace - that country is controlled by religious radicals who do literally think they are "god's chosen people".

This isn't the Old Testament. Its NOT okay to raze the enemy city and rape and pillage just because you're stronger. Might does not make right.

PS: I missed your musk.

This must be an inside joke I'm not familiar with.

JD2780

03-28-2013, 05:34 PM

Has North Korea? Bear in mind to be a "rogue state" you don't actually need to invade someone. Israel has been extremely aggressive in grabbing land that doesn't belong to them, and ignoring human rights.

Its hard to read about Israeli bulldozers tearing down Palestinian powerplants and schools... then complaining that some Palestinians get mad and fight back. Frankly, Israel has never been interested in peace - that country is controlled by religious radicals who do literally think they are "god's chosen people".m

This isn't the Old Testament. Its NOT okay to raze the enemy city and rape and pillage just because you're stronger. Might does not make right.

This must be an inside joke I'm not familiar with.

Once again you also describe Palestine.

The miss your musk thing is a movie quote.

imported_WILDJOKER5

03-28-2013, 05:55 PM

Has North Korea? Bear in mind to be a "rogue state" you don't actually need to invade someone. Israel has been extremely aggressive in grabbing land that doesn't belong to them, and ignoring human rights.

What land is that? And North Korea has fired many times into south Korea.

TJMAC77SP

03-28-2013, 06:06 PM

Has North Korea? Bear in mind to be a "rogue state" you don't actually need to invade someone. Israel has been extremely aggressive in grabbing land that doesn't belong to them, and ignoring human rights.

Its hard to read about Israeli bulldozers tearing down Palestinian powerplants and schools... then complaining that some Palestinians get mad and fight back. Frankly, Israel has never been interested in peace - that country is controlled by religious radicals who do literally think they are "god's chosen people".

This isn't the Old Testament. Its NOT okay to raze the enemy city and rape and pillage just because you're stronger. Might does not make right.

Joe, we come close to agreeing on Israel's policy regarding the treatment of non-Jewish inhabitants but you typically inject vitriol where it doesn't do any good ("Rogue state", "country is controlled by religious radicals", rape and pillage, etc).

First of all they captured the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, and the Sinai during wartime (much in the same way we did with Puerto Rico and Guam). They have of course returned the Sinai to Egypt via a peace treaty but it is their continuing treatment of the inhabitants of the remaining territories which is the cause for concern. Most Israelis I have met don’t give a flying rat’s ass for the territories or whether or not there is a Palestinian state. They do care, however about their safety. Hardly an unreasonable position. It isn't as simple as "they should give back the land" or "they can do what they want". From the standpoint of giving back the land; they should do so and also should allow the establishment of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately they can't simply ignore the real and continuing threat from terrorist attacks. You can blithely claim that the attacks are retaliation for the Israeli government's actions but the simple truth is that the violence commenced on 30 November 1947 and has never really stopped. For every instance of Israeli violence there is another example of the same by the various Palestinian organizations which have attacked Israel since that date. The latest being Hamas.

Israel needs to take active steps toward peace without a doubt but nothing constructive will occur with unilateral action. Hamas needs to abandon the violent acts and stance that Israel has no right to exist (following the template the now-PLA has taken). In the absence of violence Israel will have no choice but to make concessions. With assurances for their continued safety in place I think they will.

Israel is hardly ‘controlled’ by religious radicals. What I would classify as radicals are indeed part of every government and tend to control key ministries (immigration and education) and much like radical Christians in the present GOP, they wield too much power but most Israelis are pretty secular in nature. In fact if you consider the settlers in the territories which seem to cause so much trouble, the percentage of American expats is huge. You can’t tour one of those settlements without hearing an American accent (usually with the twang of NY/NJ). Paradoxically, most of those expats have pretty liberal political positions with regard to the US.

As I have said many times, the situation in Israel and the Mideast in general is way too complicated for clever quips and simple statements in one vein or the other.

Banned

03-28-2013, 06:14 PM

[QUOTE=JD2780;615992]Once again you also describe Palestine.

Yes, but one would expect a higher level of responsibility and maturity from a modern (and heavily armed!) nuclear power... as opposed to people squatting in refugee camps, who apparently aren't even worthy of being allowed to have their own schools or electricity.

The miss your musk thing is a movie quote.

gotchya

Joe, we come close to agreeing on Israel's policy regarding the treatment of non-Jewish inhabitants but you typically inject vitriol where it doesn't do any good ("Rogue state", "country is controlled by religious radicals", rape and pillage, etc).

First of all they captured the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, and the Sinai during wartime (much in the same way we did with Puerto Rico and Guam). They have of course returned the Sinai to Egypt via a peace treaty but it is their continuing treatment of the inhabitants of the remaining territories which is the cause for concern. Most Israelis I have met don’t give a flying rat’s ass for the territories or whether or not there is a Palestinian state. They do care, however about their safety. Hardly an unreasonable position. It isn't as simple as "they should give back the land" or "they can do what they want". From the standpoint of giving back the land; they should do so and also should allow the establishment of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately they can't simply ignore the real and continuing threat from terrorist attacks. You can blithely claim that the attacks are retaliation for the Israeli government's actions but the simple truth is that the violence commenced on 30 November 1947 and has never really stopped. For every instance of Israeli violence there is another example of the same by the various Palestinian organizations which have attacked Israel since that date. The latest being Hamas.

Israel needs to take active steps toward peace without a doubt but nothing constructive will occur with unilateral action. Hamas needs to abandon the violent acts and stance that Israel has no right to exist (following the template the now-PLA has taken). In the absence of violence Israel will have no choice but to make concessions. With assurances for their continued safety in place I think they will.

Israel is hardly ‘controlled’ by religious radicals. What I would classify as radicals are indeed part of every government and tend to control key ministries (immigration and education) and much like radical Christians in the present GOP, they wield too much power but most Israelis are pretty secular in nature. In fact if you consider the settlers in the territories which seem to cause so much trouble, the percentage of American expats is huge. You can’t tour one of those settlements without hearing an American accent (usually with the twang of NY/NJ). Paradoxically, most of those expats have pretty liberal political positions with regard to the US.

As I have said many times, the situation in Israel and the Mideast in general is way too complicated for clever quips and simple statements in one vein or the other.

This is a valid point. However -from touring the USA - would one be able to guess that we are at war with at least six different countries, and have hundreds of bases and hundreds of thousands of troops around the world? Probably not. It is possible for a people to be in general very friendly and liberal... but have a government that is controlled by violent zealots. I have not visisted the country - but that seems to be the case for Israel.

A country that spends massive resources to control a tiny strip of land... fires hundreds of artillery shells into crowded urban areas... and tears down schools and power plants... that's not the behavior of a rational, secular state. This is the behavior of violent reactionaries.

AJBIGJ

03-28-2013, 06:47 PM

I have a simple solution for the Israel/Palestine dilemma:

USA: "You two crazy kids slug it out for a while and call me when the bombs stop going off."

Exit Team USA (direct financially, militarily, and otherwise)...

Keep business intact with any who choose to engage in such dealings peacefully.

Leave the rest in God's hands, or whatever driving force you care to substitute in place of such.

RobotChicken

03-28-2013, 10:14 PM

:attention What is the AF budget for AF-1, hourly cost airborne, ground maintenance,building maintenance etc? How much for cost over budget for unplanned events? Is there even a budget for it? Would Marine One be subject to cuts also? Give 'em a V-22 instead. :fear

efmbman

03-28-2013, 10:17 PM

...why do we condemn and sanction countries like N. Korea and Iran... but support Israel?

I've always had the opinion that is stems from the guilt at "not doing anything" from 1938-1944 when the Nazis were trying to exterminate the Jews. I could be wrong...

garhkal

03-29-2013, 04:22 AM

True.. which is why i do agree with joe we need to stop giving aid.

efmbman

03-29-2013, 11:08 AM

Yes don't get me wrong. I feel no obligation to any country other than my own. Until our house is in order, we should not dole out money to others. Charity starts at home.

sandsjames

03-29-2013, 01:32 PM

I've always had the opinion that is stems from the guilt at "not doing anything" from 1938-1944 when the Nazis were trying to exterminate the Jews. I could be wrong...

Yep, kinda like affirmative action.

Banned

03-30-2013, 01:24 AM

I've always had the opinion that is stems from the guilt at "not doing anything" from 1938-1944 when the Nazis were trying to exterminate the Jews. I could be wrong...

I believe you're right.

garhkal

04-01-2013, 01:38 AM

Yes don't get me wrong. I feel no obligation to any country other than my own. Until our house is in order, we should not dole out money to others. Charity starts at home.

+1.. IMo aid to other nations should ONLY be given for emergencies (nat disasters) UNTIL we are no longer at a budget deficit and no longer have a 16 trillon debt.