Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights?

This is a discussion on Is a request for your ID really an infringement of your rights? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 43hertz
Sorry, you're incorrect about much of this.
Every time I've been asked to provide ID it's been on private property--yes, ATM ...

Every time I've been asked to provide ID it's been on private property--yes, ATM sites are private property owned or at least leased by the bank/financial institution. Wanna know how refusing to cooperate with some (absolutely not all, but some) small town cops on the side of the road in backwater Missouri is gonna go? Problem is they don't have a sign on their head saying whether they're good LEO or not. I almost always choose to comply because any further delay costs me revenue, as I get paid by the successful resolution of each service ticket.

The OP asked whether such stops are or are not an infringement on my rights.
They absolutely are, as they cause me financial damage.

Remember, I'm a middle aged man, white, if it matters (and in some towns it does, unfortunately, but usually to my benefit) in a marked van, in a uniform, not jackhammering into the vault.

Gonna be a real stretch to claim any sort of RAS in that case, unless I've missed a string of incidents fitting that description.

And yes, I lodge a complaint when I feel particularly egregiously inconvenienced. Zero appreciable results that I've ever heard about. I like 99.5% of LEO--work with them virtually every weekday.

I should have probably I have ZERO interaction with small town Missouri Police. I can only speak from what I know of my own back yard so I can't speak in absolutes and all encompassing statements. I probably should have made that clear from the get-go.

Also, if your rights are being violated then you should report that but I personally believe that everything should be done within reason.

ATM machines are a gray area IMHO. Yes they are technically private property but they aren't YOUR private property and they certainly are located in what one could easily consider a common public area and that's where the problem starts. Also, banks lease/rent that space but they intended to be used by the general public so it's a very fine line and I don't think it's a very clear one at that.

There are ALWAYS exceptions but I personally don't think that an Officer checking to see if you're carrying legally or not is generally an erosion of 2A rights.

The USSC in Terry vs Ohio and various state supreme courts where OC is legal without a license (VA, KY, AL, etc.) have ruled that demanding ID without RAS is indeed an infringement on rights. There is really no need for all of us to spend six pages debating it when the courts have already decided what's an infringement and what's not.

Requesting, of course, is completely allowed without RAS or PC as long as the individual is free to choose to ID himself or not, and is free to walk away.

The USSC in Terry vs Ohio and various state supreme courts where OC is legal without a license (VA, KY, AL, etc.) have ruled that demanding ID without RAS is indeed an infringement on rights. There is really no need for all of us to spend six pages debating it when the courts have already decided what's an infringement and what's not.

Requesting, of course, is completely allowed without RAS or PC as long as the individual is free to choose to ID himself or not, and is free to walk away.

I'll definitely go along with that. Thanks for what could be one of the most useful posts so far.

I have respect for LEOs and I think they have a tough job. They have to deal with difficult people everyday and get little appreciation for a lot of their efforts.

I think this issue boils down harassment or a lack thereof. Do LEOs have a right to harass you? Absolutely not. If I'm not mistaken, there are even laws about harassment and we're supposed to be protected from such behavior. I think some people see LEO asking for ID as a form of harassment while others are not seeing it that way. Basically, if a LEO has received a legitimate complaint and he's investigating the matter (like he's called to do by duty) and he needs to ask you to produce an I.D. to clear some matters up for himself then he's not harassing you. If he, however, is asking you to produce an I.D. just because he wants to for the sake of his own ego, then I say we're not put here to stroke his vanity. He needs to get that elsewhere but not on our dime.

The truth of the matter is that the cards are stacked in the LEOs favor. All he has to do is say he's received a complaint or you meet the description of blah, blah, blah - fill in the blank. If he's smart, he knows this and will use it to his advantage. I was with my cousin and younger brother years and years ago. We were driving through a little town where I used to live when I was a kid. I asked him (my cousin) to briefly drive through my old neighborhood so that I could see how it has changed since I had lived there. It was mostly a wasted effort because it was at night and the streets lacked lighting so you could not see much of anything. We never did, however, stop anywhere and at no time did anyone get out of the car (we didn't do anything that might appear "suspicious"). My cousin was probably in his early 20s, I was in my early-mid 20s and my brother was 15-ish. This all happened around 8 or 9 at night.

As we were driving through the neighborhood, we saw a police car and as it worked out, we fell in behind him and followed him for a minute or two as we were making our way out of the neighborhood. Before we exited, the police car pulled off to the side so we could pass him. He must have used this as a means to get behind us because a few minutes later, before we reached the city limit, he pulled us over.

He told us that he pulled us over because we looked suspicious. According to the officer, there have been a number of robberies in the area. He then proceeded to ask everyone for their driver's license. My cousin (the driver) and I (sitting in the front passenger seat) both gave him ours because we wanted to cooperate. My brother was too young to have a DL so there wasn't anything for him to produce. I remember that this really bugged the officer and I'm not sure he believed us. He then tried to get my brother to give him his social security number. Can you imagine how irritated he was when my brother told him that he didn't know it? I remember thinking that I didn't think it was so hard to imagine that a 15 yr old wouldn't know his Soc. I don't know about you guys but I didn't memorize mine until I got to college. I memorized mine after I filled out a number of financial aid forms. I'm thinking that the average 15 yr old doesn't know his/her Soc either.

I don't know about my cousin but I have never been in trouble with "the law" so I know my DL came back clean. My cousin must have had a pretty clean rap as well because after he ran our I.D.s, he let us go.

It wasn't a huge deal but an unnecessary one, IMO. We weren't doing anything wrong but we were briefly detained just the same. I'm also really doubting the officer's claim about robberies. This is a pretty rural community and word gets around pretty fast. I do not know about any robberies ever occurring in the area (at the time I'm speaking of). To be honest, the people in this neighborhood are so poor, I can't imagine that they have anything worth taking. I'm not making fun of poor people, I'm just saying that your efforts would yield much better results if you were to steal from someone that actually had something worth taking, etc.

I'm really doubting the officer's true authority to ask for our I.D.s in this situation. This is what I was alluding to when I said that the cards are stacked in the LEOs favor. All he has to do is say he has a reason, i.e., there's been robberies in the area. This is his trump card because after all, what are you supposed to do? Tell him that you don't believe him and refuse to produce ID because he has no legitimate claim to require you to produce accordingly? I'm sure that will bode well. We can spout off about case law as much as we like but in reality, you are under the LEOs authority according to how he sees fit when you're on the street. You might correct him and prove him wrong in court but you'll never beat him on his own turf (the streets). Even if you prove him wrong in court, it will cost you time and money to do so because justice always comes at a price. Unfortunately its often at a price that's too rich for most us.

When it comes to rights there is no so called "line in the sand". To give up a right because it is less hassle/do not "tick" off the officer, etc., is not having the right at all. Truthfully if someone in law enforcement does not know when a person is mandated to show identification they have no right being in law enforcement. In my opinion it is a situation that closely parallels the Miranda Rights. Should we expect law enforcement to know all the laws, of course not. However they should know most of the basic rights especially Constitutional rights.

Ya know, I appreciate all the back and forth on this.... And, I've honestly learned a lot....
Based on my previous responses, this might throw you...

I'm a permitted carrier (in Iowa, it's a Permit to Carry Weapons) . I'm walking down the street, open carrying. Which, in my state, is perfectly legal, as long as I have a permit. It's very rarely done, but it's perfectly legal, if the carrier has a PCW.

LEOs on bikes approach me from the rear, as in the video posted above. They request to talk to me... I oblige... Iowa is NOT a "Must Inform" state...They ask for my PCW...

I will comply. In a heartbeat. Right. Now.

Is it a form of ID? I suppose... as much as a note from Epstein's Mother would be... It has my name on it. My address. My Date of Birth. The NICS Transaction Number. The date of Issue, and Expiration. The County of my residence, The Number of the county, the Sheriff's signature, and mine. NO PICTURE.

Absolutely.
100%.
Easy to forge.

But, I'd provide it. Some counties in Iowa have a picture ID PCW, similar to a license, without all the security "gee gaws." Mine doesn't have the funds for a machine to produce them like that. So, they issue a piece of paper, typed on a typewriter, with some lines filled in and the Sheriff's signature and mine.

This is why I'd provide it:

Title 16 724.5 Duty to Carry Permit to Carry Weapons.
A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in the person's immediate possession the permit provided for in section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph "i", and shall produce the permit for inspection at the request of a peace officer. Failure to so produce a permit is a simple misdemeanor.

But, that's the end of it...

I have complied with the law. If they ask for my State Issued ID or Driver's license to prove I am the person on the permit.... then, we have a problem.

Now, all of that said, they can probably get my DL photo off their computers based on my name and addy. But that's up to them... I am not required to prove who I am.

If I'm pulled over for a traffic stop, I will attempt ask the officer first "What's the problem officer?" (Before he asks me "Do you know why I pulled you over, Sir?")... As soon as he tells me that I have violated some law, I will hand him my DL and my PCW.

Am I picking nits with the chickens? I suppose... Am I fighting battles that I have no need to fight? No. I respect LEOs, they have an impossible job to do... They could far more productively seek out criminals than bother me with petty BS...

But, and this is important, I am not going to be open carrying, with or without a Video Recording Device, in order to see who's hackles I can raise. My PCW is mine, I earned it. It's purpose is to protect me from "Evildoers" (Thanks, GWB). I do my best to abide by all the laws of the state. I don't succeed in that on the hiways sometimes, I'm human.

And since I don't intentionally go out in order to bait some poor cop, who's been called by some poor person, scared of a big, bad gun visibly slung on my hip for all to see. But rather, am the grey man.... Casper Milquetoast... Not being conspicuous, obnoxious, or in any other way a visible hazard to society.... You are darned tootin... if "The MAN" asks me for ID without probable cause, I won't easily submit to his encroachment on my rights to go about my business, unfettered.

I guess that about answers that question. Get ready for the but, but, but, that was only once. It actually happens a lot more than is reported. I have been to multiple countries in Africa and throughout the world and I am starting to notice a trend...just saying.

LOL no buts to it. It does not answer squat. They made a decision to stop vehicles at an intersection based on reliable information which lead to PC that an armed bank robber was at that location and what do you know he was there!!!!!!

What in God's name does that have to do with an African Police State? Oh wait this relates back to the Nazi's rounding up the Jews in the Polish Ghetto. Oh yeah I see the connection now. Yeah right.

"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

How about the internment camps on our own soil in WWII... For citizens of this country.... no, it can't happen here.... like hell.

Oakchas. Internment Camps for Japanese Americans was and still is a black eye on this country however once the initial furor over Pearl Harbor died down Japanese Americans were released and many joined the military and fought against the Germans in WW II.

I think, IMO, many are comparing a tricycle to a bulldozer in many cases. Yes there are issues that need to be resolved. Put legislation in place that clarifies what the laws, rules, regulations are so everyone understands them, police and OC'ers alike. Just like has been stated on here "When you ask someone to describe the color blue". In many places there is nothing on the books regarding OC so therefore it is left up to interpretation of both LE and the citizens and you know as well as I do both parties will take their interpretations to the outer limits.

Internment camps for OC'ers? With there luck someone would still probably call in on them.

"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

LOL no buts to it. It does not answer squat. They made a decision to stop vehicles at an intersection based on reliable information which lead to PC that an armed bank robber was at that location and what do you know he was there!!!!!!

What in God's name does that have to do with an African Police State? Oh wait this relates back to the Nazi's rounding up the Jews in the Polish Ghetto. Oh yeah I see the connection now. Yeah right.

If you remember they got the guy in the "last" car that was searched....hmmmm...tells me they would have kept on going until they found him or attorneys showed up.....all in all poor poor judgement. Again, the end does not justify the means

They made a decision based on information, which lead to probable cause so they fulfilled the legal requirement. The only other alternative would be to not do anything and let him go hoping they would catch him later?

"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

They made a decision based on information, which lead to probable cause so they fulfilled the legal requirement. The only other alternative would be to not do anything and let him go hoping they would catch him later?

I ain't rehashing it in this thread. You can always resurrect the other one

as a prior LEO in the military to ID someone you must have probable cause. i generally didnt bother people who were going about thier daily routine but would ID someone acting suspiciously or that my gut instinct told they were up to no good.