Darth Wiki Fallen Creator Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics

darkchiefy

Topic

06:44:15 PM Feb 24th 2018

Mel Gibson - As of late, he seems to be making a bit of a comeback. His recent directorial effort, Hacksaw Ridge, was commercial success and earn a number of oscar nominations including best picture. Also, while his inclusion in Daddy's Home 2 did face some controversy and the film wasn't particularly well received by critics, it still proved to be commercially successful.

Guy Ritchie - His section stops at the Sherlock holmes films but doesn't mention The Man from Unkle (while somewhat critically successful, it was a commercial flop) or his King Arthur film (an even bigger commercial flop).

Should we revive the Joss Whedon section? It as removed a while back, and he seemed to have regained the majority of fan-love, but after the Wonder Woman script, Justice League, and the affairs and emotional abuse that his ex-wife revealed, not to mention the burnout he suffered after Age of Ultron (though that one at least seems to have been a Vocal Minority), I'm wondering if there's enough negativity to justify putting him here.

At this point, I'm not sure I've seen anyone thrilled about him making a Batgirl movie; half a decade ago people would've been jumping for joy at that, but right now the only people who seem to be excited are just people that want to see Burnside!Batgirl made into a movie.

I would nominate the Spoony One for one. He's barely put out any new content over the last couple years and his fans have all but turned against him (seriously look at the Spoony Experiment subreddit). His good days have clearly passed.

Based off of what's listed on Konami's part in the video games folder, I believe that EA's part should also be updated to include Mass Effect Andromeda and Star Wars Battlefront 2's even further negative impact on the company.

I would like to recommend Marion Zimmer Bradley for this list. As vital as she was to the fantasy genre, her reputation has essentially been ruined after she was discovered to be a sexual predator that targeted her own children and those of others. It's a lot more grim than many other examples on the page, but I think it's something that needs to be said.

Can we remove the entry of Square Enix? I think its a bit outdated because of more recent events like Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn and Final Fantasy XV's success.

AgentS7

03:05:44 PM Sep 29th 2017

Seconded. Frankly, the whole Video Games section needs some serious cleanup—probably the whole page. There are a whole lot of examples that are just developers hitting a rough patch and then immediately getting better. I can easily see Hideo Kojima being on here after MGS 2 before MGS 3 fixed his reputation again.

finsterhund

08:36:12 PM Oct 9th 2017

I agree. Eric Chahi's section even has an outright untrue statement saying "his" (he was a co-founder not the sole owner) studio went bankrupt when all that happened was he left the studio to study volcanoes. It's just full of made up information or YMMV

Xteme19

08:45:15 PM Oct 19th 2017

I'm glad we're on the same page. Let's start by removing the entry of Square Enix.

Xteme19

04:42:22 PM Oct 20th 2017edited by Xteme19

Also, we conder adding potential entries in the Video Game section of this like Bungie and Microsoft.

Keiji Inafune got his start at Capcom in the 1980s, and quickly made a name for himself as the "father" of the Mega Man franchise.note Although he has said that his co-worker at the time, Akira Kitamura, deserves credit for actually designing Mega Man. He moved up the ladder to executive producer, and manyclassicfranchises were created under his watch. By the time of the seventh generation of video games, Inafune grew sick of Capcom's sequel policies; thanks to that, as EP he made sure that games like Dead Rising and Lost Planet went so over budget that they couldn't be cancelled in favor of more sequels to existing titles. Another thing that got him in thin ice was his hostility towards Japanese game developers for not adapting to HD hardware and the tastes of western gamers; all this caused him to leave Capcom by 2010, triggering the cancellation of the highly-anticipated Mega Man Legends 3 in 2011. As soon as Inafune left Capcom, he founded a new studio called comcept, and raised a staggering 4 million USD in a Kickstarter campaign for his first new major product Mighty No. 9, a Spiritual Successor to Mega Man. The game was first announced for a late 2014 release, then went through endless delays until it was released in June 2016. By the end of it all, Mighty No. 9 was widely derided as an ugly, uninspired knockoff rather than the Spiritual Successor it was meant to be. Not helping was Inafune's utter abuse of Kickstarter as a crowdfunding platform: not only did he announce a CGI cartoon of the character, but also another KS campaign for English voice acting and another one for the Mega Man Legends-esque Red Ash—and that last one meant nothing anyway, as it was already being fully funded by the Chinese studio FUZE Entertainment. All this had the gaming public question if Inafune was genuine in his efforts or a greedy con man, to the point his fellow ex-Capcom employee Hideki Kamiya stated on Twitter that Inafune was "a businessman, not a creator." Eventually it was discovered that not only did he personally order the shutdown of Capcom's beloved Clover Studios, but his harsh statements on Japanese devs not adapting to Western tastes caused development of the highlycontroversialDmC: Devil May Cry. All of the above, coupled with the mediocre reception of ReCore and the failure of Mighty No. 9 has given Inafune a reputation as Japan's counterpart to John Romero.

TheDeadSkin

07:04:21 AM Jun 9th 2017edited by TheDeadSkin

edit: the post above has been fixed for links and formatting (can't actually do paragraphs in the discussion page because... coding, i guess?)

I think the section on Gunpei Yokoi needs to be revised for a number of reasons, mostly that it's based on misconceptions and incomplete information. For one thing, he didn't leave Nintendo because of disgrace or mistreatment; he actually stayed longer so that it wouldn't appear that he was fired due to the failure. He'd been planning to resign for some time, and the Virtual Boy was meant to be his Swan's Song for the company. His movement to a less important position and his manning the trade show booth were both at least in part his ideas so that he'd still be useful to the company while waiting for things to die down. And last but not least, Nintendo hasn't forgotten the Virtual Boy. It was included in the Japanese version of Super Smash Bros. Melee in the trophy gallery, and Nintendo of America in particular have embraced it as a joking self-deprecation.

Here's my Keiji Inafune entry, which I also submitted under locked pages, I'm pasting it here as well:

One of the more recent and famous examples, as well as an example of not what he seems, is none other then Keiji Inafune. Originally starting out at Capcom in the 1980's, his claim to fame would be his involvement in the Megaman franchise, and is often reffered to as the father of the franchise itself (though he has gone on record saying that his co-worker at the time, Akira Kitamura, should be considered this instead due to actually designing Megaman) Eventually moving up the ladder to become an Executive Producer, under his watch, many famous franchises at Capcom would be born, such as Resident Evil, Onimusha (of which he also directed), Devil May Cry, and many more critically acclaimed franchises. All looked like it was going great for him. Sadly, good things were not to last. By The Seventh Generation Of Video Games, Inafune was growing sick of Capcom's sequel policies, which resulted in him making sure games such as Dead Rising and Lost Planet went so over budget that they couldn't be canceled in favor of more sequels (Not that it stopped them from making sequels to those games anyway) to existing franchises. His disturbing trend of bashing the Japanese Game Industry for failing to adapt to HD hardware and western tastes (though not without justification) eventually caused him to leave Capcom by 2010, causing the highly anticipated Megaman Legends 3 to be canceled in 2011 without his input despite saying he could continue working on it as a subcontractor. Many people had raced to his defense, trying to pin the blame on a big corporation like Capcom. Having formed a new independent studio called comcept, his first new major product through Kickstarter, Mighty No. 9, had raised a staggering 4 Million dollars counting extra paypal dollars, and things were looking bright. You'd think that he would still be successful, right? Sadly, no. After originally announced for a late 2014 release, the game underwent multiple delays, first to early 2015, then late 2015, then Winter 2016, then Spring 2016, only to be eventually released in June 2016. the result? A mediocre, uninspired platformer that looked nothing like what was originally presented. Not helping the matter, during the time, he not only announced a CG cartoon of the character, but another kickstarter for English voice acting, AND a kickstarter for a Megaman Legends spiritual successor, Red Ash (Which turned out to be all for nothing, as it turns out the game was already being fully funded by a Chinese development studio). During this time, it caused people to question whether Inafune was genuine or a Con Artist full of greed for money. Fellow ex-Capcom employee, Hideki Kamiya, even stated that Inafune was a business man, not a creator. To make things worse, it turns out that not only was he the executive to shut down the beloved Clover Studios division at Capcom, but he also was the reason for why Dm C Devil May Cry, a controversial entry in the series, existed in the first place, citing that Japanese developers should be more like Western developers in tone and style, making pre-existing fans of Japanese games very unhappy. All of this, combined with the Mediocre reception of ReCore after the already bad reception of Mighty No. 9, has caused Keiji Inafune's reputation to crash into shambles, with many seeing him as Japan's Jon Romero in status. Time will tell if he recovers.

Any possible edits that might be needed can be done by a moderator if they have to when they add it.

Can someone expand the Ken Penders one to make it clear the extent of the damage his lawsuit did?

It resulted in the whole comic being rebooted and several well-received characters removed because Archie got scarred and not only pulled his creations but any characters made by ex-staff lest someone try to replay his actions.

He also managed to sabotage Ben Hursts attempts to get a Sat AM movie made to give the story closure by jumping the gun and telling Sega to soon. He then blamed Ben Hurst and claimed "he didn't know how the industry worked" or something to that effect.

1. In Creator/Interplay entry, is there any reason FreeSpace 2's paragraph has to be bolded? Is it clerical error, or the part really need to be emphasized?

2. Eric Chahi's entry lacking "public opinion has turned against these people" part. His "killer" (Heart of Darkness) actually sold well. And he does return with From Dust. I don't think he count.

finsterhund

01:58:44 AM Dec 24th 2016edited by finsterhund

Can confirm about Eric Chahi. He does not belong on this list and I'd implore any mods to remove him. He left the video game industry not because of a failure, but because he had been working almost constantly on projects for nearly a decade. There was very little break between the development of Another World and of Heart of Darkness. After the release of the game he left the studio (which was a joint project, not founded entirely by him) and spent the his earnings pursuing his interest in geology and volcanoes. Eventually once the new indie scene was well underway he returned with the idea to create a game where magma could be used to influence a sandbox game; From Dust.
Not only did Heart of Darkness sell well enough to warrant a platinum release in the UK, but it received "good" scores averaging out around 75-80% with slightly lower scores for the PC version due to less colors.
Heart of Darkness is still regarded as a classic in retrogaming circles and has inspired many modern indie devs such as Playdead (Limbo and Inside) and whilst the game had a considerably blown up amount of hype back when it was in development that didn't really go anywhere once it was actually released, the game was well received. Just not "perfect game of the year" status.
Amazing Studio, the team that made the game also did not go bankrupt. They simply left the video game industry and eventually re-branded to "Amazing Digital Studio" because of a serious shift in the way games were made. (In the 80s to early 90s many games could easily be made by a couple of friends in a basement) which became impossible with the race for better and better 3D graphics. Upon release Heart of Darkness was only somewhat dated, and the main criticism was actually how short the game was and how it was a 2D sidescroller when most games at the time were completely 3D. Eric Chahi's fans generally like Heart of Darkness. It was a solid game that improved on some of the programming flaws of Another World.
And looking at how this page is locked I see no way to remove it. I've been to the Locked Pages request page but see no way to post there. It's a real shame. Even if just the part saying the studio went bankrupt got removed would be better than nothing. People have been spreading that EVERYWHERE and the studio is still around. Just in the film industry now.

finsterhund

07:09:13 AM Jan 22nd 2017

alright. I have posted in the locked pages request discussion about the subject of my previous post. Perhaps I should have linked to my post here there as well. Admittedly I'm a longtime lurker and first time poster here so I fully expect I'm going about this in a less than stellar way.

Think Kenji Inafune is at risk for this considering the seeming fiasco that is Mighty No.9's launch?

As it is, various fans have lost their esteem in him, though for some it's merely the last straw on top of the Red Ash debacle, the various delays and troubled production of Mighty No.9. It lead to remarks like "If he was a robot master, he'd be Con Man"

I'm in the camp of "let's see how this plays out" but I'm not too sure if he and Compsect would even get the chance.

For the Newspaper Comics genre, I think D.C. Simpson should be removed. That strip she was developing with a syndicate finally launched, being christened "Phoebe and Her Unicorn" (originally titled "Heavenly Nostrils").

I think Josh Trank from Fantastic Four (2015) career should be listed. According to the Wikipedia page: "As of today, Trank has no new projects lined up and no Hollywood studio wants to work with him. His notoriety as such firmly placed him in director's jail, a pariah locked out of studio directing opportunities for the indefinite future. One anonymous Hollywood executive told the Hollywood Reporter, "No executive will go near him. I might take a meeting with him, just to give him advice, but I wouldn't give him a job." The Hollywood Reporter suggests that the only way Trank will ever be allowed another shot at directing is to apologize, eat humble pie, and go back to his low budget roots. He might also try writing a great script or going the television route but even that's a long shot."

On a side note, Robert Zemeckis' entry needs some updating. It has been 3 years since his Flight movie came out.

Does Bendis still belong on this page? For all that the fans hate him, his books still sell and, as of April 2016, I've seen no signs that Marvel is planning to oust him anytime soon - hell, he's writing their big event book for the year.

supergod

09:54:19 AM Apr 25th 2016edited by supergod

I don't like Bendis's Marvel work, but I've tried arguing for his removal before.

While we're discussing comics, ...

I've also argued that the section about Hush on Loeb's page should also be removed, since it's one of the most popular Batman books, probably only behind the classics like Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns, and saying that people who like it only like it for the art is straight up bullshit (and the Hush character was popular way before Dini used him).

The line about Mark Millar's "ultra-conservative views" should also definitely go, since he's definitely more liberal leaning than anything. This is straight from the horse's mouth). (Which means that entire first half of that paragraph should be rewritten, since his works are meant to be full of satire and irony).

It's not about simply disagreeing, it's about removing factual inaccuracies, including one that's misrepresenting the beliefs of a real life person.

A relevant quote from the latter article: "We need to give Chris Carter the George Lucas treatment. Thank him for all heís done, present him with a gold watch, and get him as far away from this show as possible."

I would like to add DJ Shadow to this list. During mid-90s, he was a key figure in the development of sampling and plunderphonics, and his album "Endtroducing" is still regarded as the definitive instrumental hip-hop release, being frequently ranked in professional lists of the all-time greatest albums. Nowadays, he became an unrelevant, "behind the times" DJ who was, among other things, kicked off the decks from his own performance in Miami, and most of his modern releases are mediocre trap/jerk hop tracks without any sense of creativity or musical complexity that prevailed in his earlier works. Rate Your Music page on him ( https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/dj_shadow ) displays his decline in quality and popularity over the years.

should Keiji Inafune be added to the Video Games folder? his name became a joke after the PR disasters that were Mighty No. 9 and Red Ash, and ReCore was quickly forgotten about after its E3 reveal

Demongodofchaos2

12:02:08 PM Oct 3rd 2015

You need to be more specific then that.

Konami and all its PR disasters are going the same way, but they aren't there just yet.

Let a mod know what they think.

SeptimusHeap

02:36:43 AM Oct 4th 2015

We are not in a hurry to add any videogame company to this page. I think people tend to jump the gun on declaring these as "fallen".

RaustBD

09:27:09 PM Oct 25th 2015

With regards to Konami, I think the fact that they've alienated the entire holy Trinity of Igarashi, Kojima and Yamaoka is a pretty sure sign that they're not the company they once were. Surely causing the leaders of the projects that made the company great to leave the company in disgust qualifies as "falling".

a: Konami's executives have been acting like incompetent assholes for the past few years, and that
b: It's been to the immense detriment of every beloved franchise they own.

They've quite clearly been slowly losing the capacity to create the kinds of games that made them great to begin with, and alienating the people who helped make those games great out of sheer short-sightedly greedy arrogance has a lot to do with it.

SeptimusHeap

07:33:33 AM Oct 28th 2015

That's a lot of assertions about the executives that make me a little sceptical. You'll have to ask on this topic for an addition, if anywhere at all.

superboy313

11:47:32 PM Nov 26th 2015edited by superboy313

I guess it's because of how Inafune shamelessly abused the trust of Mega Man fans and gave them false hope since Capcom has been giving the franchise the cold shoulder for the past decade. Ironically, what Inafune is doing is possibly worse than what Capcom has done with Mega Man.

Demongodofchaos2

10:04:17 AM Dec 5th 2015

@ Septimus Heap. Geoff Kieghly on The Game Awards 2015 live on stage that Konami outright banned Hideo Kojima from going to the event, which celebrates the whole industry.

Creative Differences only my butt.

AlleyOop

05:20:14 PM Dec 6th 2015

Yeah what they did to Kojima at this year's TGA is something pretty unanimously agreed on as cruel. Can't think of any way to get around justifying that as anything other than Kick the Dog. Besides, the statements that Konami plans to withdraw entirely from the very video game sphere which it used to be known primarily as a creator for are already putting there.

SeptimusHeap

12:59:32 AM Dec 7th 2015

Folks, this is not a forum to discuss videogame companies. If you want to propose an example, you need to come to the Locked Pages thread.

Larkmarn

07:12:53 AM Dec 7th 2015

Well, I do think that it's important that they come to a consensus here before trying to get the example added. Based on everything I've heard, Konami definitely applies as of late. Does anyone have a suggested writeup?

Demongodofchaos2

07:50:43 AM Dec 17th 2015

I'm not that good at doing stuff like that, myself.

Demongodofchaos2

07:50:45 AM Dec 17th 2015

I'm not that good at doing stuff like that, myself.

Larkmarn

10:26:45 AM Jan 28th 2016edited by Larkmarn

Just a quick writeup:

Konami. Once a beloved studio and publisher of some of the most respected game series from the NES up to the eighth console generation when things went... wrong. Circa 2015, they announced plans to seriously scale back their AAA development, focusing instead on Pachinko Machines and mobile games. This alienated gamers, but it did even more to their own staff. The consistently popular Metroid Vania-style Castlevania series dried up after Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin and in 2014, Koji Igarashi, the man behind the series departed and went on to make a Kickstarter for a Spiritual Successor that was funded within hours. Hideo Kojima, creator of the Metal Gear series was essentially given the boot following Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. When the game won an award at the 2015 Video Game Awards, Konami barred Kojima from attending. This also led to the cancellation of Silent Hills, which fans thought might've been exactly what was needed to revitalize the increasingly stale Silent Hill franchise. The new CEO of the company even admitted to having never played a video game when he took the position. By 2016, Konami has become a complete laughingstock to western gamers at best, and a source of bitter rage at worst.

AlleyOop

12:29:56 PM Mar 9th 2016

I think it sounds pretty good as a basic summary. Get rid of the second "in 2014" though.

ReiKusanagi

08:24:40 PM Jun 21st 2016

The bit about Inafune is more revelant in light of how Mighty No.9 came out (wound up making a post earlier as I wound up overlooking this.

Xteme19

06:07:48 PM Aug 7th 2016edited by Xteme19

I have an idea to have to add to your writeup, Larkmarn. "The company had become one of the biggest, most despised punchlines in the history of video games and a major example of everything wrong with the AAA industry and the video game industry in general." What do you think?

AlleyOop

04:17:11 AM Nov 8th 2016

"Major example of everything wrong with the AAA industry and the video game industry in general" sounds way too hyperbolic.

ChrisX

08:21:16 PM Dec 7th 2016

Requesting permission to add Larkmann's statement into the Locked Pages topic to be evaluated? It has gone quite long enough and honestly, I'm not seeing any events that the fans' views on Konami restored, since Konami continued to dig the hole in their grave without care of what gamers think, including how Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater is turned into a pachinko game and then went to be the third most disliked video of all youtube, and continued with Metal Gear Survive...

AnotherGamer

08:16:39 AM Dec 12th 2016

It's been a year already, why isn't the above entry on Konami on the page already?

ChrisX

07:39:02 PM Dec 12th 2016edited by ChrisX

You know this page is permanently locked and needs permission from the 'Locked Page' topic in the FAQ thread.

I think Fireball 20XL belongs here, and I even have a rough draft for its potential submission.

From the early to late 2000's, the webcomic host site Fireball 20XL was considered one of the most successful and profilic webcomic hubs on the net, its works, such as That's My Sonic, Tv Tome Adventures and In Wily's Defense helping to codify many of the tropes and standards viewers now associate with Sonic the Hedgehog and Mega Man comics to this day. However, by the late 2000's, the site began a rapidly increasing decline. First came Chaos Diamonds 3, penned by site founder and head Psyguy, which was a complete joke of a comic filled with a laughable plot, boring, cliche dialogue, lifeless fighting sequences, Unfortunate Implications, and a last minute plot twist that makes no sense. Shortly afterwards, Chris "Kirbophere" Niosi, long time contributor and creator of TOME, took an extended absence from the site in order to focus on his college career, and fellow longtime member Mr. OMA dropped comic after comic before vanishing entirely. This was quickly followed by Heartcore going independent, leaving Psyguy himself and a handful of new additions as the sole contributors to the site, and their new works were dubious at best.

Things ultimately came to a head in late 2014, when an anonymous user posted evidence that Psyguy had a less than pure past, citing examples of abusive relationships and outright ebophilia. This unlocked the floodgates as more and more people began coming forward with their own experiences with Psyguy's awful behavior. In the end, Psyguy went from a beloved pioneer of webcomics to a despised pariah and a complete joke, Fireball 20XL was shut down, and Psy himself vanished from the internet entirely. As of this writing, the only former members of Fireball who have managed to keep their careers intact are Kirb with his TOME reboot and Ame Lashaic with her Heartcore reboot.

Can we add an entry for Bill Cosby? His reputation has been successfully tarnished thanks to all the accusations he received for being a rapist. With all the bad press, he will never restore his image anytime soon.

SeptimusHeap

11:40:12 PM Jul 27th 2015

I have some doubts about adding an example on grounds other than the quality of his works.

ReiKusanagi

05:38:01 AM Dec 21st 2015

Even though things like Fatty Arbuckle and such are there? Though I think we should give it time to see how his career fares, though to be fair, he's been sort of going by and only getting a bit of infamny for his rants that one time.

Given that EA sells millions of games year after year, which hasn't changed despite Hate Dumb, it is wrong to refer to them as a "Fallen Creator" on this page. This particular entry was blatantly written by someone who didn't get exactly what they wanted from DA 2 or ME 3 and decided it was EA's fault.

In lieu of this interview, it seems a correction must be made regarding Denis Dyack.

SeptimusHeap

11:29:07 AM May 24th 2015

A few more details?

nomuru2d

04:49:22 PM May 24th 2015

Read the interview. Turns out the situation regarding X-Men: Destiny was not him being egotistically obsessed with funding his Eternal Darkness sequel, but was instead him and his team being strangled by a dueling-company case of Executive Meddling between Disney and Activision resulting in NOBODY getting paid for working on it.

SeptimusHeap

01:24:01 AM May 25th 2015

I need an actual rewrite for the entry, sorry.

nomuru2d

07:19:10 AM May 25th 2015edited by nomuru2d

Another victim of this is Silicon Knights, who was coincidentally another former Nintendo devnote Though technically, Nintendo still owns some stock in the company. The creators of the first Legacy of Kain game, the acclaimed GameCubeSurvival Horror game Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem and well-done Metal Gear Solid remake The Twin Snakes, their next game, Too Human, languished in Development Hell. From jumping from threedifferentconsoles to an incredibly bloated budget($60 Million!) to a series of Frivolous Lawsuits between Epic Games, the finished product received mediocre reviews and rather bad sales, which put a damper on that trilogy they planned. They have rarely made anything since then, with their latest game X-Men: Destiny being quite a stinker.Alleged comments by former employees paint a bleak picture of how Silicon Knights was run, with its President Denis Dyack resenting Nintendo's quality control measures while developing Eternal Darkness and the Metal Gear Solid remake, taking Activision's money for X-Men: Destiny and quietly using it to fund a tech demo for Eternal Darkness 2 whilst blowing off the publisher's concerns and attempting to prolong the development (and funding) of Destiny for as long as possiblenote The unfortunate truth was that Silicon Knights was being strangled by the legal situation between competing companies Activision and Disney in the wake of the latter purchasing Marvel, resulting in the company pouring its own money into both projects and not getting paid for any of it.. As of October 2013 two separate attempts to use crowd sourcing to fund a spiritual successor to Eternal Darkness have fallen far short of their intended targets, Silicon Knights' reputation has been shattered in wake of the allegations against it and the failed lawsuit against Epic Games, combined with the loss of key staff from the original Eternal Darkness team has well and truly cemented the developerís fall from grace.

Better?

SeptimusHeap

07:46:20 AM May 25th 2015

That one works (length aside). I've put it in.

Shaoken

10:40:28 PM May 25th 2015

As the person who originally had the article changed, I dispute nomoru's edit. Why is Dyack's word worth more than the former employees? The initial Kotaku interview by former employees paint a lot of problems at SK as being Dyack's fault, and this interview is Dyack claiming that Kotaku is wrong, on a platform that from the comment's section already has an axe to grind with Kotaku anyway which turns the whole thing into a "he said she said" with no actual evidence for most of the claims.

Rather than take sides I propose the entry be rewritten again. Here's my proposal:

Another victim of this is Silicon Knights, who was coincidentally another former Nintendo devnote Though technically, Nintendo still owns some stock in the company. The creators of the first Legacy of Kain game, the acclaimed GameCubeSurvival Horror game Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem and well-done Metal Gear Solid remake The Twin Snakes, their next game, Too Human, languished in Development Hell. From jumping from threedifferentconsoles to an incredibly bloated budget($60 Million!) to a series of Frivolous Lawsuits between Epic Games, the finished product received mediocre reviews and rather bad sales, which put a damper on that trilogy they planned. They have rarely made anything since then, with their latest game X-Men: Destiny being quite a stinker.Comments allegedly by former employees paint a bleak picture of how Silicon Knights was run, with its President Denis Dyack resenting Nintendo's quality control measures while developing Eternal Darkness and the Metal Gear Solid remake, taking Activision's money for X-Men: Destiny and quietly using it to fund a tech demo for Eternal Darkness 2 whilst blowing off the publisher's concerns and attempting to prolong the development (and funding) of Destiny for as long as possiblenote Dyack claims that Silicon Knights was being strangled by the legal situation between competing companies Activision and Disney in the wake of the latter purchasing Marvel, resulting in the company pouring its own money into both projects and not getting paid for any of it.. As of October 2013 two separate attempts to use crowd sourcing to fund a spiritual successor to Eternal Darkness have fallen far short of their intended targets, Silicon Knights' reputation has been shattered in wake of the allegations against it and the failed lawsuit against Epic Games, combined with the loss of key staff from the original Eternal Darkness team has well and truly cemented the developerís fall from grace.

SeptimusHeap

10:53:33 PM May 25th 2015

Holding for nomuru2d's comment since I don't know anything about these works/companies.

nomuru2d

11:14:12 PM May 25th 2015

Did you even read the interview? Kotaku never once did anything correct in terms of journalistic ethics when it comes to anonymous sources.

Besides which, their Dyack article isn't the only instance in which Kotaku has been coming under fire for being the bonafide shameless tabloid of gaming journalism, so I'd think that it's less a "he said she said" and more a "set the record straight because there's no way they will".

Shaoken

11:53:38 PM May 25th 2015

I skimmed it, wasn't impressed since they didn't even mention the lawsuit with Epic Games considering how big a deal that was (with the whole "destroy all copies of these games" court order thing). But from the interview (at least the first part you linked, the second part was better but also irrelevant to the issue at hand) I got a strong "pro-Gamer Gate and anti-Kotaku site and interview subject are pro-Gamer Gate and anti-Kotaku."

As for the rest of your argument, it's just an Ad Hominem argument against the platform the opinion's hosted on rather than the opinion itself. Not to mention that the main pushers against Kotaku are Gamer Gate which is not exactly the most unbiased alternative. It also doesn't refute the point that it is still "he said she said"; Dyack was never going to say "yes that article is 100% right, I am a dick", so there is no valid reason to hold is side of the argument up as the truth when both his opinion (because it's about himself and is leadership) and the platform (enjoying a crowd that hates Kotaku) have bias issues.

That's why my revision doesn't take a stance; it says one side supposedly says one thing, the other side refutes it and has a different answer. People can make up their own mind, they don't need someone else to make up their mind for them.

MorningStar1337

02:04:37 AM May 26th 2015

I agree with Shaoken. As it is right now the example needs to reference and link to both interviews. And be as neutral as possible. The wiki is not a place for agenda pushing, regardless of the agendas I agree with.

I know the page has been locked and probably won't be reopened again, but Konami really should have gone up on here (not just in light of the Hideo Kojima/P.T./Silent Hills/Metal Gear controversies, but they certainly play a significant role). The steady decline of the company's standing in the 7th and 8th generations has been painful to watch.

SeptimusHeap

03:00:05 AM May 12th 2015

A wee bit too little context, I'd say.

Demongodofchaos2

06:36:11 AM May 12th 2015

Not only that, but merely having P.T. On your PSN library will block your access to PSN entirely, simply because Konami doesn't want anyone to play It anymore.

Shaoken

10:14:10 PM May 25th 2015

Err, what? Besides being blatantly wrong by the fact that anyone who has or had P.T can still access the PSN (for example, I have it in my library and I've routinely been able to access the PSN except for when there's downtime), Konami couldn't do that even if they wanted to since it's Sony's network.

ReiKusanagi

02:31:56 AM Aug 6th 2015

they took a big flying leap with their plans to abandon games and focus on Pachinko machines. That and them basically firing Kojima. I think this is particularly damning as it suggests various thing Konami has rights to (like the FOX Engine barring Kojima being savvy enough to keep the rights) will never be used again.

AlleyOop

12:46:59 PM Aug 11th 2015

I think with the new Nikkei report on their corporate abuses, and the controversy over their new Silent Hill slot machine and Sex Sells Castlevania pachinko machine, and their seeming permanent departure from console game development they definitely belong here.

stewyworks333

03:07:18 PM Aug 23rd 2015edited by stewyworks333

Is there any way to bump this for an admin to see this, since out of all the companies, Konami really does deserve it's spot on the list. I'm not even Fan Dumb or Hate Dumb, since I'm genuinely more upset at how they treat their employees like shit, and get away with it, even by Japan's very high-demand standards.

AlleyOop

10:26:05 PM Aug 23rd 2015

It's probably one of the more unanimously hated companies right now. If someone could draft up an entry maybe we could post this on the general requested edits thread.

SeptimusHeap

02:13:13 AM Aug 24th 2015

"Hated" is not a good qualifier for this trope. See also the Capcom debates on this discussion page for other instances of stuff that does not qualify.

ReiKusanagi

05:43:08 AM Dec 21st 2015

It's a matter of reputation, capcom while getting some heat, still makes notable fighting games. I would wager these moves are completely destroying Konami's rep, possibly qualifying them.

Shaoken

06:53:23 PM Dec 31st 2015

We'd still have to wait to see what happens next. They are supposedly making a new Metal Gear game without Hideo, and they are still turning a healthy profit with their gambling machines. Despite their moves savaging their video game reputation, if they just leave the industry and focus on other things then they aren't really fallen at all.

Nintendo needs to be added. They are without a doubt the fallen creator of the decade.
The Wii U was released to commerical failure which still is plaguing the console, terrible games like Mario Kart 8 and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U which suffered horrible gameplay and millions of glitches that did horribly critically and commerically, horrible buisness decisions that have resulted in them burning their bridges with many other developers, including the ones that work for them, oh, the list goes on. And they're the very defitnition of They Just Didn't Care because them rushing games out the door, let alone their very biggest games of the year, just goes to show that they're not even trying to make quality products any more, they're just desperatley trying to grab money, and failing at that too.
And the seperate people who work for Nintendo could count too. Sakurai is one definite example, after his winning streak came to a crashing stop with Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, as well as publicly insulting his audience.

SomeNewGuy

08:30:37 PM Feb 6th 2015

...Are you for real?

harryhenry

08:37:54 PM Feb 6th 2015

(To Yuki-Akuma) Are you being sarcastic?

ReiKusanagi

05:44:44 AM Dec 21st 2015

They might have had a bit or rough times, but their reputation.

And all that crude jumble of words sounds like more someone upset at how a game didn't hit your exact specifications.

RebelionRoja

10:58:12 AM Feb 21st 2016

I'm not a Nintendo Fanboy, in any way or form, and I honestly, dislike Nintendo, but holy shit. I think they're doing pretty well, from what I can gather from gaming sites, and friends.

Could Matt Groening qualify? He hasn't fallen nearly as far as most of the other entries on here, but he's not the rockstar he was in the late 90s/early 2000s: The Futurama reboot got mixed reviews and wound up cancelled, while the Simpsons has been average at best for the last 10-15 years and isn't really a part of pop culture anymore.

SeptimusHeap

03:42:24 PM Dec 19th 2014

I am not sure about the latter point.

harryhenry

10:44:42 PM Dec 19th 2014

Plus, the reboot of Futurama was actually one of the best reviewed-shows when it was on.

promptjump

08:30:20 AM Dec 20th 2014

Groening isn't really part of pop culture anymore, just look at how the Simpsons is covered: The show has gone from being out there and prominent to just one of many shows along with South Park and Family Guy, and even major news like the renewal or major Season 26 death doesn't get much coverage, just a couple-paragraph blurb (the same treatment that most shows get).

The futurama reboot wasn't that well-received: Many fans, myself included, thought it was nowhere near as good as the original series on FOX, and there's no denying that it got cancelled due to poor ratings (and Comedy Central isn't exactly overflowing with good series to replace it).

SeptimusHeap

09:16:28 AM Dec 20th 2014

"Many fans" - mind backing that assertion up?

harryhenry

09:59:56 PM Dec 20th 2014

Also, the reception from fans from my POV was more... divisive. (I was talking about critical reception in my last post.)

promptjump

11:51:56 AM Dec 21st 2014

Critics weren't wild about it: Season 7 and 10 (Broadcast) both scored 76 on Metacritic (8 and 9 don't have enough reviews to generate an average), while 10 has the lowest IMDB average, at 7.4; compare that to 8.2 and 8.1 for seasons 1 and 5, respectively.

Futurama was always kind of a niche show-many of my friends hadn't heard of it, and fewer watched it-so low ratings would track more closely with fans getting bored/turned off than it would for, say, the Simpsons. I'm not saying no-one liked it, I'm saying many of the fans of the old episodes either didn't come back for the reboot, or didn't like what they saw.

SeptimusHeap

12:03:05 PM Dec 21st 2014

"Your friends" is not a big sample size. Also, if they haven't even heard of it I have to question the representativeness as well.

Could we maybe add Ubisoft to this list? Between Watch Dogs' graphics downgrade controversy & lukewarm reception and Assassin's Creed Unity being almost unplayable at launch, they're not all that popular or credible with many gamers anymore.

The Power Rangers example needs updating. Operation Overdrive is described as one of the three most hated seasons along with Turbo and Wild Force. Super Megaforce needs to be added to that, making it four - the fandom hated the usage of unadapted Super Sentai teams, and the failure to use full team morphs for three of the teams who were adapted.

KyoAni might count though at the moment with Amagi Brillant Park they may be restoring their esteem. (Speaking mainly of the western side of things, no idea about japan)

How did they lose it? Abandoing Full Metal Panic, Endless Eight (though it's said it's more Kadokawa's fault than thiers), and how they caused the moe age with Lucky Star and K-On (not to mention the handling of the series), then they made Free (weapon-grade yaoi fodder)

Only thing hindering KyoAni's recovery are signs of corners being cut and rumors of KyoAni overriding the original's writer's suggestions.

Should CBCT(Carter Bays & Craig Thomas) be on here? Or is this a Broken Base overracting again? Yes it was only one episode at the very end but the finale to their show seemed to have given them a really bad image amoung the entertainment industry and may have prevented them from making HIMYD.

Admittly I've never watched HIMYM just stumbled upon this ending, but yeah.

SeptimusHeap

11:51:39 AM Aug 3rd 2014

First, let's not use acronyms without explaining them. HIMYM is How I Met Your Mother and HIMYD is the spin-off mentioned here. Seems like the quality or reception of the works didn't really play a role (more like Creative Differences), so they should not be cited for this trope.

I mentioned this one the locked pages thread, but that Jeph Loeb example really needs to be cleaned up. The whole thing about Batman:Hush being a failure isn't really true, and the opinion that Hush is a crappy character isn't really the prevailing one. Not only is the book one of the most popular recent Batman stories, but the character, Hush, is extremely popular to the point where people wanted him to be in Nolan's films. There are other problems with this page (and I personally think that it should be purged and that entries should require a Complete Monster sort of process), but that one's the most glaring.

Shaoken

04:31:24 AM Aug 1st 2014

This is a Darth Wiki page, its meant to be full of negativity. No purging and no cleanup efforts.

supergod

05:23:17 PM Sep 15th 2014edited by 86.99.197.72

But there usually should be some basis to the negativity, otherwise anything could be added. There's a reason that there are rules on the Wallbangers and So Bad, It's Horrible pages. It should logically be even stricter for a page that's mainly used to bash creators (whether that's the actually what the page is intended for or not). There's even a note at the end saying that entries should only be added if there's clear public backlash, and it's not just based on your own personal opinion. While Jeph Loeb does get a lot of flak, it's not because of this comic. Mentioning that it "flopped horribly" is a bit of a lie, when it's generally well received (and yes there are obviously going to be detractors, but not enough for it to be considered a critical failure). It's also one of the most popular recent Batman stories, which should automatically disqualify it, no matter what the critical response is. It was number 10 on IGN's top Batman stories of all time (and whatever your opinion on IGN is, that still counts for something). The "purge" part is not important, but this entry should definitely be taken off.

SeptimusHeap

02:34:35 AM Sep 16th 2014

Well, you can bring up problematic examples and example writeups here and we'll review them.

Anyhow, Jeph Loeb's wikipedia entry makes his inclusion here questionable. The long list of bullet points looks almost like it's grasping at straws to justify their inclusion. I would remove that entry.

supergod

06:02:19 AM Sep 16th 2014

I think some of his works could justify him being there, like Ultimatum, but it would probably need a better write up.

supergod

08:40:22 PM Sep 17th 2014

Oh, and the Mark Millar section should probably be cleaned/removed as well. Not only are his works still popular and reasonably well liked (and there are plenty of people who like his comics over the more idealistic Hollywood adaptations), but it also talks about his "ultra-conservative views", when he's known as a liberal.

SeptimusHeap

11:37:15 PM Sep 17th 2014

While I can't comment on the first issue, does the "ultra-conservative views" refer to his own views or those in his works?

supergod

04:55:01 AM Sep 18th 2014

It says that the characters in his books support his ultra-conservative views, so it's likely about Mark Millar himself.

How has the entry on Kevin J. Anderson survived as long as it has? Not only did Kevin J. Anderson NOT write Dark Empire, the comic series predates all of the "good" examples cited. I don't think the entry is salvageable; it should be cut.

The Annie Rice entry talks about her being popular with "the GLBT community and yaoi fans" ...shouldn't the latter be changed to "slash" fans, since it's probably talking about people who write Slash Fic? I know they get confused a lot on the Internet, but yaoi is simply a genre of anime, and the vast majority of fans who like Boy On Boy Is Hot in Western media like Anne Rice are not actually fans of yaoi itself.

Not sure why Molly Ringwald, Robin Williams, Tom Cruise, or Meg Ryan are on this list, but I'm going to request their deletion unless someone can enlighten me.

ReiKusanagi

09:57:46 PM Nov 23rd 2013

Tom Cruise has some decent reasons (his whole scienctology thing and related nutty moments) but the others might have had problems but I doubt people think less of them, same with Sean Conery (sure his career might not have been that great but people love him)

Shaoken

12:19:23 AM Dec 1st 2013

Well the trope is basically "they once were great but now they aren't as great." For the Robin Williams entry to use an example whilst he's still good, compared to the 90s he's not as highly thought of anymore. Hell the entry even says his work is still good, it's just that he has a shadow of the popularity he had in his heyday.

Pretty much all of them (which have the reasons why they're on this list in their examples) were big stars during their peek, but have fallen a lot further than just the passage of time would be responsible for.

ReiKusanagi

10:59:46 PM Jan 5th 2014

I thought a key point in this is basically ruining one's reputation in the process, not just falling into obscurity/being a relic of the past.

Shaoken

03:26:35 AM Jan 24th 2014

It's what this trope has been known for, but it's not a strict requirements. And I specified that this was when a star's reputation falls a lot further than what the simple passage of time would be responsible for. To use Robin Williams again, he was insanely popular in the 90s but had a massive drop off over the course of a few years that simply doesn't happen to your normal actor (whose descent in popularity occurs over a much longer time span, except for the rare few whose popularity never really fades and gets looked back on fondly even by people who weren't around for the original run).

Did Gene Roddenberry avert this via Author Existence Failure? I've heard in a couple of places that he became obsessed with Star Trek's "vision" to the point that a lot of the problems in early TNG can be traced back to him, but he died before he could ruin his reputation the way George Lucas has.

Shaoken

11:23:42 PM Oct 13th 2013

I think it helps that back then a lot of what he did wouldn't have been public knowledge, so his reputation remained intact. Had the internet existed during that time he probably would be on this list too but since he was long since dead by the time most of this stuff came up it people's opinions of him have set.

No since it's still too early to judge. $150 million isn't a lot of money, but it's not an automatic death sentance. When Capcom can't make a hit game period they'd count, but for they still have an Xbox One launch title coming up (Dead Rising 3) along with a few more games in development, so they haven't hit this stage yet.

While Capcom's reputation isn't completely ruined, their handling has basically betrayed chunks of their fanbase. That article is a distrubing sign alright considering all things (such the money they're supposedly making from their fighters, how the PS4/etc doesnt' seem to be that big of a leap,etc)

Once the fighting game market dies down (Again), they'll be in trouble just due to how many other bridges they've burned.

Not until it's all said and done. All that article states is that the shareholders removed the complete buyout protection, not that anyone is interested in buying them out. When someone buys a majority of the shares and basically takes the whole company out from under them then it's done, but right now it's just more of what we already knew.

Yes they are in a bad spot, but if Marvel Comics can declare bankruptcy and bounce back then Capcom is not in the grave yet.

...if you want to draft up an example though I wouldn't blame you.

shadowrevolution

12:21:59 PM Jul 7th 2014edited by 96.49.240.174

Capcom sadly seems to be headed down this route. First they already had a reputation for Capcom Sequel Stagnation, as evidenced by their Trope Namer status. Then in 2010, Keiji Inafune quit along with other creative minds that made Capcom successful, leading to a mediocre silver anniversary for Megaman, dismal sales of games like Resident Evil 6 and Lost Planet 3 and the sheer amount of bile and controversy as their blindness to the market by pumping out more DLC rather than new games led to fans growing disillusioned with Capcom as their finances are slowly wasting away with only 150 Million at one point which has caused Capcom to become a former shell of itself.

SeptimusHeap

12:32:19 PM Jul 7th 2014

That writeup needs namespace fixing. Also, the "former shell of itself" is hyperbolic - there is nothing to indicate that they are that bad yet.

madgodzulcan

07:52:41 PM Jul 7th 2014

Instead of blindness to the market maybe have something like suicidal business practices just to stress how many... well stupid decisions they have made.

I would just put that they effectively put themselves up for sale after the 150 million part.

Shaoken

11:42:51 PM Jul 7th 2014

The first sentence screams "this is not an example please delete me." There is no "seems to be headed down this route", you either are or you aren't. And that last sentence is waaaaaaaaaay too long (considering that it's a six line example with only three sentences, the first two not going beyond the start of the second line) and word cruft.

But until such a point as Capcom actually declaring bankruptcy (which I will state again Marvel Comics actually did in the 90s and bounced back from rather well) they can't qualify since the other video game companies either are out of the business entirely or their last few releases have been complete failures in every sense of the word with no shining rays on the horizon.

shadowrevolution

10:14:13 AM Jul 9th 2014

Forgive me, I was using an older article as a template

Capcom have become another fallen creator of the new tens. First they already had a reputation for Capcom Sequel Stagnation, as evidenced by their Trope Namer status. Then in 2010, Keiji Inafune quit along with other creative minds that made Capcom successful, leading to a mediocre silver anniversary for Megaman, dismal sales of games like Resident Evil 6 and Lost Planet 3 with extremely negative reviews and absolutely horrible sales and the sheer amount of bile and controversy as their blindness to the market by pumping out more DLC rather than new games led to fans growing disillusioned with Capcom and quickly jumping ship as Ono states how they are not capable of developing a next generation Street Fighter game due to dwindling finance. With finances are wasting away with only 150 Million at one point which has caused Capcom to become fallen from the graces of gaming industries where both the press and fans mock them.

Can we swap out the last two lines for Silicon Knights? The current one is;

"Most would, however, like a return to the world of Eternal Darkness, with the release of the Wii U on the horizon, and the fact they don't have the same problem as Rare. They may be able to Win Back The Crowd... "

But in the meantime their two attempts to make a spiritual sequal to ED have failed, and according to former employees who have left the only reason games like Eternal Darkness were so great was because they had Nintendo forcing quality control, and once given free reign the owner was content to screw around on other games, having considered the previous quality control needless interfering on Nintendo's part.

My proposal is to replace the quoted lines with;

Comments by former employees paint a bleak picture for how Silicon Knights' was run, with the owner resenting Nintendo's quality control measures when developing Eternal Darkness and intentionally missing deadlines for X-Men Destiny to force Activision to continue funding development. As of September 2013 both attempts to crowdsource for a spiritual sucessor to Eternal Darkness have fallen short of their goals, and the goodwill gained from their previous hits having seemingly evaporated in light of the allegations against it.

The result of his retooled "Batman Vs Al-Qaeda" book is out now... and even if one had never known that it began as a Batman story it's obvious Miller barely did anything to change the fact that the Fixer is Batman, the Cat-Burgler is Catwoman, and the policeman is Commisioner Gordon. Holy Terror can be described as a vehement anti-Muslim Author Tract-filled political cartoon, similar to the others which were created in the first frantic year after 9/11. Any doubts about his recent writing style (as of ASBAR) being self parody are dispelled as Miller's "patriotism" and xenophobia are presented completely seriously. The whole book is a message that Muslims need to be stopped as they could become terrorists at any point. Just when you thought Frank Miller couldn't sink any lower...

His reputation has been hurt even more by his vitriolic attack on the Occupy Wall Street movement whom he referred to as "Thieves, rapists and pond scum" and managed to fit even more attacks on Islam. Its as if Frankie boy has been reading comments about him online and thinking "How can I make myself even worse than They think I am?".

The Occupy rant has nothing to do with his works, and thus has no place on the page.

Holy Terror, while not well-received by a good deal of the (admittedly biased) comic critics, led comic sales when it was first released, and continues to sell well, indicating that the public may not agree with the critical assessment. It also has several fans in the mainstream comic industry, including Jim Lee, Erik Larsen, Dave Gibbons and Mark Millar, who called it "Genuinely the most fun I've had reading a comic in a decade." Not exactly the credentials of a comic "hated across the board", as its detractors have been claiming.

Frank's star has only fallen amongst an extremely Vocal Minority. His works (two of which recently got well-received animated adaptations) continue to sell well, and two films based on his works will be released in the coming year. He shows no signs of slowing down.

Shaoken

08:06:28 PM Sep 7th 2013

Uh no, his star has fallen. Note that it's only his pre-Sin City works that are held in high regard. You don't hear people talking about how great The Spirit was, nobdoy is holding The Dark Knight Strikes Back as being anywhere near The Dark Knight Returns in quality, that it's selling is not a indication of it's quality (and it only led Graphic Novel sales, not comic book sales which went to DC), and considering what Miller has said on record in real life about Muslim's it's not a faint criticism of Islam, it's outright racism against them.

Katsuhagi

08:20:26 PM Sep 7th 2013

The fact that DC refused to publish Holy Terror or allow it to be about Batman as he planned is a pretty good indicator that he's lost a lot of the influence he once had. It also got completely lambasted by critics and the opinion that his work has declined is not a minority one.

ReiKusanagi

10:03:40 PM Nov 23rd 2013

the Occupy Rant refers to his reputation as what someone does outside their work can affect their rep as badly (if not more so) than what they do with their work.

That and in many places Frank miller has become a joke, synomous with grimderp and excessive use of prostitutes.

I've moved this section here because, AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be enough "fallen" to these creators to justify their being here, especially with these sketchy writeups. Thoughts?

For several people, Tite Kubo is heading this way. While Bleach was originally well received for its quirky characters, awesome fights, and an insane plot twist in the Soul Society arc, for many, things went way downhill afterwards. A massive case of Arc Fatigue, many odd plot threads, and Aizen being turned into a Villain Sue have caused many people to start hating the series, and Kubo himself has been accused of trolling his fanbase.

I agree, and the fact is that the titles are still selling well in both the US and Japan, so it just seems like a few fans complaining.

Wyldchyld

02:08:34 PM Aug 10th 2013

Plus, this is only Tite Kubo's second work. His first was cancelled so Bleach is his first success, and the Bleach fandom has been volatile in terms of praise and criticism from the very beginning. He doesn't strike me as ever having had the sort of adoration and "untouchability" that's required for a creator to become this trope. He's always had mixed reviews, and Bleach's volume sales are as steady now as they were when it first began.

ReiKusanagi

10:05:35 PM Nov 23rd 2013

I'm inclined to agree as they haven't really fallen as A) they never reached godly peaks and B) haven't fallen low.

The Fallen creator point would be when their usual fans feel betrayed by things.

andyjay

11:12:44 PM Oct 9th 2014

What do you think about Gen Urobuchi? Ever since Psycho-Pass season 1, it seems like there have been as many complainers about his supposed dependence on grim plot twists and character deaths as fans. And then Madoka Rebellion...hoo boy. It had its fans for sure, but obviously plenty others felt betrayed. I don't think he's there quite yet, but if we ever decide to unlock this page, I'd like to know what the rest of you think. I certainly think he should write more scripts on his own instead of entrusting the bulk to others (often several different people) as in Suisei no Gargantia and Aldnoah.Zero.

SeptimusHeap

01:09:22 AM Oct 10th 2014

Well, if he isn't there yet, we can hold off on adding them.

ReiKusanagi

07:09:06 AM Nov 19th 2014

IIRC, Urobuchi isn't assoicated with Rebellion, though these days I think some things get him on board just to use his name to build up hype (not sure what trope that's called)

"
To say he 'had a stellar career through all the '60s, '70s, and '80s' is to paint things a little rosier than they were. While he was in two hit films during the '70s, they were the All-Star Cast Murder on the Orient Express and A Bridge Too Far, he was also in Zardoz and had lots of trouble getting work by the 80s. He was then in the adaptation of The Name Of The Rose for very little money, but it proved to be his comeback. That same year he did Highlander and the next he won his only Academy Award for The Untouchables."

"Even after he left the comic and Archie, he managed to make things worse by trying to sue for the rights to his original characters from the Knuckles series, even though everyone in the comic is owned by Sega."

Updated:

"Even after he left the comic and Archie, he managed to make things worse by trying to sue for the rights to his original characters from the Knuckles series. This was a ridiculed decision, but when he apparently had a case, resulting in the comic losing a good deal of the characters in the middle of a story line, it really got the fandom going."

Should there be a mention in the Orson Scott Card entry on the reaction to the news that he was going to write a story for the "Adventures of Superman" anthology series? And how, because of it, the artist left and the story may never be published?

Does NISA fit as a Fallen Creator, the PS3 era has been really bad for them, going from a respectable company to one that is shadow of it's former self. Neptunia, Mugen Souls and similar games have been received very negatively by critics everywhere.

ReiKusanagi

04:36:20 AM Apr 30th 2013

Good question though it may be debated as it still has a core fanbase, though one not well thought of by others.

But its course is generally disapointing since its emergence as it seems to get by on disgaea and idea factory colabs (which tend to driven by cameos, fanservice, jokes, and or references not light on much else). And then there's their record with localizations, which ranges from so-so dubbing at least to outright wasting space on the disc at worse.

Some do think it would be better if NIS/NISA teamed up with Atlus and let them do the localizing of things.

ReiKusanagi

05:52:16 AM Dec 21st 2015

Update on the matter: with IF/CH striking out on their own, NIS/NISA are in more of a rough spot with increasing bug problems (including one that induces overheating on the PS3)

Things are looking a bit rough, but I don't think it's reached the point where their fans feel abandoned.

While Square-Enix has been mentioned in passing I'd like to mention them directly. While not a 100% fallen creator due to their side publishing but for most of the RPG community, the Square side has effectively squandered what good will was left after X-2 and XII. I say Square side as it and its money grubbing president, Yoichi Wada are the problem areas. Enix and their series maintain their reputation in spite of this.

Its major falling points would be FFXIII, an obviously linear RPG with some redeeming traits and FFXIV an spiritual sequel to FFXI that had one hell of a bad start (and a major case of Never Live It Down) hence their attempted reboot of the game. This marked a vicious 180 towards the whole genre by the media/masses that once loved it.

The Kingdom hearts series while commercially successful, its plot line is becoming more and more tangled (due to its producer's insistence on surprises) is another factor.

Another strike against Square is how it's lesser known series (Mana, Sa Ga) were no longer released here at best (Sa Ga who enjoyed a good string of western releases since Sa Ga Frontier) and put out to pasture at worse (The Mana series after Dawn of Mana aka Kingdom Hearts testbed flopped.)

But the Coupe De Grace? Final Fantasy XIII-2 a game that proceeds take 20 steps backwards while walking 5 forward that many RPG fans have sworn off of Square.

It's to the point where Square is a joke in the RPG community compared to perhaps the biggest name during the days of the Snes and Playstation.

It won't entirely die but barring Wada getting removed and making a few miracles happen, it's highly unlikely that Square will recover its reputation among RP Gers any time soon. I'm surprised Enix hasn't tried selling Square yet.

The cause of the merger and likely Wada's tactics, The Spirits Within (written by Mr. Sakaguchi, producer of most of Final fantasty) should be noted, though Sakaguchi voluntarily resigned in wake of the movie flopping and some may consider him this though I would beg to differ mainly that his new company Mistwalker rarely gets high profile venues (they mainly made games for the 360 or Wii, systems ignored by most RP Gers) or sizable budgets among other things. So while their games may not be on par with Square's stuff, they're doing pretty good for the resources they do have. But until Mistwalker gets a good shot, I don't think Sakaguchi'll get his chance to recover.

Edit: I realize most of this has been coveread already. But I don't recall Dragon Quest getting pushed off to the side as the last few major games got releases in the US including Dragon Quest IX.

I would also like to remark that it's Rumored that the Chrono series is basically dead due to the DS port of Chrono Trigger didn't sell as much as Wada wanted (no duh seeing how it got one port already and Square Enix flooded the DS with RPG ports to such a point plans to release certain ones in the west got halted.)

NES/GB era: Square experiments with its future games (Saga, Mana), most of which isn't seen in the west but the west would see the fruits later on.

Snes era: Square comes on to their own establishing themselves as a big name in jRPGs (with help from Nintendo) with Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Secret of mana (as well as the games NOT released in the US) Only Enix is considered its equal (and that's with how their presence in the US got marginalized then)

PSX: Era the age of jRPG begins with Square as its ruler as well as a time of experimentation by Square, producing surprising hits and various japan only RPG series coming out in the west in addition to the grand return of Enix making an impact with Valkyrie profile, Star Ocean 2, and Dragon Quest 7.

The Spirits within: I can't say what was going on in Sakaguchi's mind when he wrote this, but after news of its failure hit, Square started to focus on money making. Around this time a new pecking order was established when it was clear only RP Gs with Square's graphics and budges would be the mega-hits, leading some aspiring companies to draw back, leaving Enix among a few others as competition.

PS2 Era/Merger: Square's money making policies were in effect as there's no real experimentation to be seen for the most part with Kingdom Hearts's birth being a clear cash cow creation (that wasn't that bad). During this era, signs of jRPG excesses started to wear out their welcome such as long cinemas. It's assumed that Chrono Cross and Dawn of Mana were adversely affected by Square's policies while XII is all but outright confirmed for such a thing. Some could argue this is where Square's decline began though it was subtle at this point (mainly caused by XII and X-2).

PS3/Post PS2 era: This is where Square proceeds to decline at a high speed with over porting some of their classic hits, flooding the DS with so many RP Gs that its competition partially gave up their release plans, all the while with no sign of the DS remarks of the original Sa Ga/Final Fantasy Legend games. Square's mistakes along with ill timed rapid western releases of games made by the infamous Idea Factory, the age of RP Gs ended with a whimper.... and a teabagging (as the age of the Brown gritty FPS took over)

shadowrevolution

05:53:05 PM Mar 28th 2013

Also to add salt in the wound

PC Era: Square Enix decides to adopt a bunch of gaming companies, while the PC companies prosper under Square Enix, Front Mission was the ultimate victim. Front Mission as a series was simply marketable on their own but with Evolved it ruined the good name of the Franchise

Also, Wada has recently resigned so it needs to be updated.

ReiKusanagi

05:54:56 PM Mar 29th 2013edited by ReiKusanagi

To be honest, the Front Mission series was basically finished after 5 (as in that was the planned last chapter/entry), though the fact they mis-marketed the series for the most part doesn't help. Front Mission Evolved was yet another failed attempt at japanese companies to make a grab at the western market.

Wada resigning is good news, now to see if the company picks itself out of the hole it dug. It'll take more than Wada leaving to fix things.

Another big step: getting Nomura away from the writer's desk as sooner or later he'll write Kingdom Hearts into the ground (the fact there's some Kudzu Plot going on right now is not a good sign and with his "fondness of surprises", I don't see things getting better).

shadowrevolution

07:53:33 PM Mar 31st 2013

It didn't grabbed it correctly. Front Mission Dog Life and Dog Style Manga (published by Young Gan Gan) which is the HBO of manga, had the right kind of mindset. It felt like Band of Brothers but Evolved instead was like Gundam00 with Motomu Toriyama at the helm of Evolve's storywriting. It went as well as everyone expected.

Here's a hint to Square Enix, it doesn't have to be Call of Duty. It simply has to be like Berserk or Band of Brothers. Nothing like sex, violence and morally questionable protagonists to get the ball rolling.

ReiKusanagi

09:44:38 PM Oct 9th 2013edited by 67.184.110.183

An update for the Square Enix thing, mainly at the moment their hopes seem to rest upon FFXV for a quick redemption.

Though I would say Toriyama (forgot his first name), the producer of the games with Lightning in them might be a minor one as he seems to be stained the "XIII" name so badly Versus is now being called FFXV

I heard some damning things as of late, such as someone doing a terrible FFX-2 sequel novel and that this person is doing the writing for FFXV. Though hard to say if this is 100% true or not without proof.

ReiKusanagi

11:06:13 PM Jan 5th 2014edited by 67.184.110.183

An attempted bump, but I should add that the general venom fans have for square is increasing, for among other things finding out how they bungled things like the Front Mission Series in the west (basically they dragged their feet on releasing a two pack of the first two games but then decided to release the third game instead, which was different than most in the series. Then they followed it up with the latest one, which didn't sell well for a mix of reasons, including being compared to 3)

supergod

04:35:04 PM Mar 4th 2014

I think it's also worth noting that their Eidos/European division seems to be doing better with Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Tomb Raider and Thief getting good to decent receptions.

... honestly, I don't think Stephanie Meyer belongs on this list at all. While I'm not a fan of her work, she's still absurdly successful and not enough time has passed since her (absurdly successful) Twilight Sage. She hasn't even released any works yet, and I don't think that her fandom has lost much faith in her as a whole. She hasn't had a flop, she hasn't really lost prestige (... in so much as she never really had much from most of the people complaining about the book, and her own fandom doesn't really seem to care). Sounds more like it's less Fallen Creator and more that the hatedom felt like it got fuel for the fire.

Can someone add Silicon Knight's recent legal and financial situation to it's entry? What with them losing their lawsuit against Epic Games, subsequently being counter-sued and being made to pay them back millions of dollars and told to destroy all unsold copies of games built with the Unreal 3 Code, the company's essentially on life support now.

Why was Capcom removed? Look up "capcom worst company ever" and you'll find that since mid-2011, a ton of people have been claiming them to have gone downhill. So what if they're a "major and highly successful publisher"? So are EA and Activision, and they're widely despised among the gaming community. You can't deny that Street Fighter X Tekken, Dm C, Marvel VS Capcom 3, and Resident Evil 6 have been highly controversial, and the backlash over MML 3's cancellation was HUGE. They deserve a spot on the list.

SeptimusHeap

09:58:42 AM Nov 5th 2012

For starters, read the trope description. It's not about a company sucking; it's about a company falling permanently.

shadowrevolution

03:00:41 AM Feb 5th 2013

And how about Dm C failing to meet sales expectations and relying mostly on paid off reviews just to prevent naysayers from being justified.

Larkmarn

07:44:13 AM Feb 5th 2013edited by Larkmarn

Capcom doesn't belong on this list. The games you listed? None of them were huge flops, DMC included. They still make solid games, but they also make some bad ones. How's that different from, say, Capcom ten years ago? Or 20? They've always been a hit-or-miss developer (Capcom Sequel Stagnation isn't named after Konami), but this isn't a page just for complaining about a few decisions and games they've made of late. And out of curiosity, do you have an article about them paying off reviews? Because that would be very interesting to me.

This was a good locking.

ReiKusanagi

05:33:55 AM Mar 10th 2013

The thing is Capcom is steadily wrecking its reputation among the gamers that supported it for a long time.

Dm C? Basically a middle finger to the DMC fanbase; those that still support it either are in massive denial or likely a part of the cult of Tatem.

Cancellation of MML 3 and Megaman Universe: Middle Finger to megaman fans and Keiji Inafune who left the company. The first major sign of Capcom going this route.

Selling fighting game revisions as new games? in the age of DLC there's no real excuse for that.

The only fanbase Capcom hasn't lost is the fighting game fanbase and who knows how long that'll last before they too get screwed over. Yeah the broken mess that was Street Fighter X Tekken didn't do much in that area.

As far as the review thing? It's a well known fact that the US gaming media reviews according to the ad money paid to the magazine if not more (Like Activision giving reviewers a nice resort vacation along with freebies that Gamepro editors admitted to taking in the magazine)

So most fans don't trust the reviewers as they will grade anything well if enough money is involved. Considering Activision's massive spoiling of reviewers and their Co D/MW series getting great reviews despite no real changes of note to the gameplay while bashing other games for rehashing...

And for Dm C to get such nice reviews despite being inferior to past games (as could be expected from a developer who is known for making nothing but making alright games)? There's only one natural conclusion to be made here.

DMC, from what I've seen has been actually well liked by a lot of people who weren't previously DMC fans (and I'm not talking about major reviewers, people like Nerd≥ and T Otal Bisuit have also given it positive reviews), so your arguments just seems like "I don't like this game, so nobody should"

Can we please unlock this page, if only to clean up some of the brain-hemorrhagely stupid entires in the "Music" section? Especially the ones on Metallica, Anthrax and Sepultura; the first two being blatantly niche-opiniated, if not factually inaccurate (calling Load a "bad version of grunge" when the music is rootsy, blues-styledHard Rock that has almost nothing to do with Grunge or Alternative Rock), the third being devoid of some very important details (Max Cavalera, the founder, frontman, band leader and chief songwriter leaving the band is pretty significant, to say the least).

The Roger Waters entry is especially heinous. True, The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking and Radio K.A.O.S. were commercial and critical flops, but his 1992 album Amused to Death has been wildly hailed as a Creator Comeback, and (along with The Final Cut) certainly more well received then the "Dehydrated Floyd" releases from Gilmour and co. (find me anyone willing to consider A Momentary Lapse of Reason anything more than a colossal mistake.

While we're on the topic of potential candidates, Clint Eastwood's, uh, "performance" at the RNC gives him a good chance of landing here, I might say. Let's see whether or not it tanks his next film.

While we're on the subject of video game publishers, we have Electronic Arts (EA) which publishes noteworthy titles such as EA Sports, Battlefield, The Sims, Medal of Honor, Command & Conquer, Dead Space, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. However, recently they have come under fire from several sources after buying Bioware and releasing Dragon Age II, which many hated for it's linearity (everything you do makes things worse) and divergence from the gameplay structure of the first game. EA's guilt in this? Certain implications that they rushed the game while it was on early beta. This was made worse with draconian DRM, including the Origin service, which lacks the features available on Steam, runs poorly, and periodically scans the user's hard drive as well as removing all future EA games from it, forcing you to use the service. The capper was Mass Effect 3's Gainax Ending. Ever since people started reaching the end, accusations have been flying about EA rushing Bioware, leading to a incomprehensible, plothole-ridden, and just depressing ending. This has cause stock prices for EA to drop and the company to recieve the "2012 Worst Company in America Golden Poo Award". And that was after they were previously known for killing off Pandemic, Bullfrog, Westwood and Maxis completely.

Bioware was noted for making a great deal of excellent CRPGs and the universally praised Dragon Age and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic which was a retelling of A New Hope set in the Old Republic. However, Dragon Age 2 was not for its extreme railroading, repetitiveness and alienating the fanbase when Bioware could not handle the criticism properly and suffering from Internet Backlash as a result. Bioware since then has a lost a great deal of respect and Star Wars: The Old Republic is seen as a sinking ship where it is seen as an expensive attempt at challenging World of Warcraft for its crown only to see 300 million dollars go down the drain and desperate attempts to keep it from sinking. While Mass Effect 3 was critically acclaimed by critics, many fans felt extremely dissatisfied with a variety of things and Bioware definitely lost respect from its fans in what was supposed to be a celebrated final entry to the trilogy.

Yes, I know - everyone and their mother hates the ending of Mass Effect 3. You have no argument from me here. However, the game still sold close to 2 million copies in its first week. It's the highest selling title of the trilogy. Almost everyone who played the game said it was amazing up until the final 10 minutes.

This example was already deleted, not only by myself, but from several other users because it's the hardcore fanbase complaining about how Bioware Jumped the Shark because it's owned by EA (and a user was banned for continually readding it, even when his points were proven to be misleading). If there comes a time when a game sells far, far below their sales expectations and is critically panned, and it happens more than once, it would be an example. Even SWTOR has proven to be moderately successful from a "new IP" point of view. As it stands, they are still monumentally successful in terms of sales earnings.

asaqe

10:05:48 PM Mar 15th 2012

Well at least they will earn the consolation prize of shame in the ranks of Never Live It Down and Broken Base. I will give them that notorious reputation.

But really I ask, how about the internet backlash? At the very least Bioware has permanently tarnished their reputation.

crazyrabbits

03:58:34 AM Mar 16th 2012

People have been saying Bioware has "tarnished its reputation" for three games now. I am a user on the BSN, and the vitrol and whining I see from fanboys goes over-the-top (and takes away from the people who are reasonable and willing to explain their position without resorting to hysterics). I've seen people on the forums say they've been "violated", "raped", "lost five years of their life", and call for the firing and/or death of the lead creators.

The only thing I can see that would negatively impact them is their PR policies - they make themselves very open to the fanbase and the media, and when the fanbase gets riled up, they complain that the company hasn't addressed their needs fast enough. Any time someone doesn't "tow the party line", they either get accused of being ignorant or being paid off by EA.

Sure, the ending was bad, but both the reviewers and fans almost universally agreed that the rest of the game was great. Most of the comments on Metacritic voting it down only focus on the ending, to the detriment of the rest of the game. If they have a game that's considered a genuine flop and it happens more than once, I'd have no problem with putting them on here.

asaqe

12:16:40 AM Mar 17th 2012

The problem is that IGN and Gamespot are loyal Bioware lapdogs. Anything that can be seen as a potential PR disaster would have EA handling the problem by throwing money at the problem. After what happened to Gertsmann, few dared to openly defy other publishers to this day unless it is from Japan which nowadays is seemingly fair game.

If Bioware didn't became a fallen creator. There wouldn't be this desperate sense of controlling the detractors to PR. Which you have referred to and thus is a reason for being seen as fallen creators.

crazyrabbits

11:49:54 AM Mar 17th 2012edited by crazyrabbits

That's a strawman argument. If a company enjoyed the game enough to rate it highly, that means they're automatically on a game publisher's payroll and should be discredited? That's a debate that has no bearing on this example.

You didn't read my statement correctly. When I say "doesn't tow the party line", I mean that if anyone (regardless of whether they're a fan, a reviewer or anyone in between) makes a halfway-positive remark about the game, overzealous fans jump all over them and accuse them of not seeing what they're seeing. The same hardcore fanbase is running around to video reviews, product pages and rating aggregators and downvoting anyone who doesn't agree with them en masse. Even game reviewers who were critical of the game and tried to defend it were set upon by those same fans.

This trope doesn't mean what you think it means. This isn't "So Bad, It's Horrible for creators". It's not "a company makes a mistake that hurts them, even if their products are successful". By that logic, any game publisher who produced a product with a bad scene or a bad ending would be put on this list.

The game is, by all accounts, successful from a critical and commercial standpoint. I don't need to listen to fanboys lecturing others about how the ending was bad - I know that already. It has no bearing on the success of the game. Not only that, but you've written the same example on a couple other pages as well to try and bolster your point.

asaqe

09:21:14 AM Mar 27th 2012edited by asaqe

How about this:

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/gyrobot/1332864871675.jpg

It is proof that Bioware has fallen, that it destroy all of it's goodwill with one single game and it was Dragon Age 2

MrDeath

03:01:07 PM Mar 27th 2012

That is an impossible to read image. If you wanna state your case, state it, because I can't even read that.

That said, explain to me how it destroyed "all of its goodwill" with a game that came out several years ago...and yet Mass Effect 3 was one of the most positively anticipated games of this year?

lrrose

03:07:14 PM Mar 27th 2012edited by lrrose

Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and The Old Republic have all sold very well (DA2 had a low budget and development time, so it didn't need as much sales to make a profit). I'd say that financial success alone disqualifies Bioware from this.

Only qualification that Bioware seems to meet is the fractured fanbase. The Bioware forums' strict policies toward criticism emerged in response to how one of the Dragon Age writers was cyberbullied. It just so happened that the policies went into effect about a week before Mass Effect 3 was released.

@Mr. Death: The image seems to be a bunch of whining about textures as well as showing the contrast between the professional review scores and the user scores on Metacritic. Overall, its not a very compelling argument.

crazyrabbits

02:50:13 AM Mar 28th 2012

Asaqe, I'll say this once and only once.

Besides the controversy that's erupted over several design and story-based decisions the company has made since being integrated with EA, it's still successful from a critical and commercial standpoint. The hubbub over the ME3 endings, Tali's Photoshopped face, etc. mean nothing. The game sold over 2 million units in the first three weeks. That's the highest-selling entry of the trilogy. Just because a game has a fractured fanbase, doesn't mean it's eligible for this page. It's just fan whining, and it has to be two games or more in succession that flopped (critically/commercially) to even qualify for this.

All you're doing is just arguing in circles.

xie323

05:12:29 PM Apr 12th 2012

Bioware isn't this trope. Most of the people who hated the ending on ME 3 do not hate Bioware as a whole. And it can be argued that the backlash is more against EA itself.

If we use Broken Base as an example for this trope then why isn't Blizzard on this page cause almost every single non-critic for World of Warcraft(and to some extent, Starcraft II) has been leaning towards the negative. And for a non-gaming example, why aren't the creators of Code Geass on this page for breaking their base with R2?

And oh, what's proof that Bioware pays critics to be lapdogs? This need document, primary source.

We need two consecutive flops ordecline in quality. I'll count DA 2 as one since some critics gave it mixed reviews. SWTOR? Most of the hate is based not on it being a game but on it being a "MMO".

asaqe

10:39:47 AM Apr 14th 2012edited by asaqe

It was effectively three hundred million dollars down the drain trying to grab the World of Warcraft audience and there are several attempts to keep it afloat at all costs.

And think about how they have an IGN journalism be part of their cast to gain the good graces of IGN who will then defend Bioware from any form of criticism and call those who have legitimate concerns about the state of the industry with a plethora of buzzwords.

People are consistently talking about paid reviews since Grand Theft Auto IV and how journalists will not call out a company on it's flaw when they are paid to keep silent.

asaqe

08:41:04 PM Apr 17th 2012

Also, Tortanic only lasted 4 months before no one cared about it.

asaqe

11:33:14 PM Apr 18th 2012edited by asaqe

So using those examples, can Bioware be on fallen creator yet? Because I am cautious about provoking an Edit War

xie323

06:52:39 PM Apr 19th 2012edited by xie323

TORTANIC can arguably be excused since most of the hate I see for this game from a GAMEPLAY VALUE is basic MMO hate, as well as the "kill World of Warcraft" ambition that kills or ruins MM Os these days trying to cater to the Blizzard crowd just amplicated cause of /v/. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened when GWII comes out and falls on everybody's face instead of being an epic. This has happened so many times that if one were to add Bioware, we might add almost every single MMO creator that tried to kill World of Warcraft but failed.

The whole IGN and critic thing is, as far as I'm concerned a "conspiracy theory" where you just pull stuff out and try to link them with no credible source and based on rumors that do not just go to Bioware. Furthermore, most would agree that Mass Effect 3 was a good game until the final 10 mins.

So stop bringing this up again until at least DA 3.............they we can see who's right.

xie323

12:06:51 PM Apr 20th 2012edited by xie323

Furthermore it seems that all your "information" is based on what appears on /v/, STA forums and Reddit. There isn't a lot of credibility here. And if we want to add Bioware just cause of "Broken Base" than we might as well add a lot of other companies with broken base issues but critical sucesses here too. It's simply too broad.

asaqe

03:03:52 AM Apr 24th 2012

But then why is Capcom tossed into the category when Bioware did similar things. An poll that slapped EA with the title of worst company in america which led to a stock dip from the "Fear, Uncertaintly and Doutbt Campaign", angry fandom who formed the Retake Mass Effect protest. That is even more bloody vocal than Capcom's fallen creator status.

xie323

11:32:41 AM Apr 24th 2012edited by xie323

Apprently Capcom cancelled two games that fans wanted for unknown reasons, and milked franchises to death. Sonic team's 3D games got just as much backlash from critics as well as fans and ditto for Square Enix(which also ties into the "I'm sick of JRP Gs" mentality that many have).

There I cleared up the most infamous gaming examples. There has to be BOTH massive internet backdraft + critical disappointment from critics for THREE CONCECUTIVE GAMES. And you cannot take "conspiracy theories" into account. All the crediable non-conspiracy arguments show that Bioware is only massive Broken Base atm.

Also it was not Bioware haters that form the Retake ME 3 movement. It was Bioware fans disappointed with the ending. The creator of the club said to refrain from hating and attatcking Bioware and it was more of "I hate EA instead" club. They still have a degree of respect for Bioware. Sure they're gonna boycott Bioware's games, but that's cause it causes EA loss of sales. I asked them what if Bioware broke from EA, and they said that they will go back to supporting Bioware.

Wait until DA 3, and if Bioware gets the same backlash on unofficial reviews(not /v/ hijacked metacritic reviews through) and gets some major critic backlash, then you might be right......might...

Or how about we comprimise and add EA here instead.

asaqe

12:03:30 PM Apr 24th 2012

That will do perfectly, I can't argue with that.

xie323

02:26:53 PM May 16th 2012

With the recent Diablo III fiasco, it is perfectly safe to say that you cannot use Metacritic to claim Bioware is this trope. Metacritic ALWAYS gets hijacked by /v/ if thy don't like something. If DA 3 comes out it must meet signficant critical backlash as well as fan backlash, or at least have a ME 3-esque club complaining about the game instead of a couple of fanboys on /v/.

asaqe

11:56:26 AM May 17th 2012edited by asaqe

Maybe not, but perhaps the Old Republic MMO may be more convincing argument given the rapid loss of subscribers. At this rate, TOR may as well replace Dragon Age 3 s the sacrificial lamb due to it falling completely below expectations

And Metacritic is valid given how bitter gamers are without the ability to voice their protests. With Journalism serving the company in fear of corporate retribution.

asaqe

06:20:22 PM May 22nd 2012edited by asaqe

So can you keep dismiss such claims of Bioware haven't fallen yet? It began with Dragon Age 2, continued with The Old Republic and finally Mass Effect 3. It is over, Bioware is completely finished.

The thing is, I don't consider failed World of Warcraft-killers = Fallen Creator. Otherwise 99% of all gaming companies would be on this page as they have "failed" in a way in killing World of Warcraft.

And since Bioware is suffering from massive Base Breaker, by your logic then Blizzard would belong here too. Because every single thing said about Blizzard since the recent World of Warcraft expansions has been total Base Breaker, the fact that they're actually losing players, concerns about the storyline and endless retcons in all their games going on and the possibility that they're appealing solely to people who Play the Game, Skip the Story over their "lore fans", as well as the recent Diablo III fiasco. It's simply too broad.

For things like Sonic Team, Square Enix and Capcom, there is critical review proof that they're Fallen Creator.

And when is "Staff Layoffs" considered Fallen Creator? By this logic 38 studios is also this trope because they went under recently.

Like I said, wait until DA 3,and ME 3 game itself isn't this trope, it's just the ending that caused all of this. 99% of ME 3 players(myself included) believe the game was awesome but the ending sucked. If this continues in DA 3, then you can add it.

And where's the proof that EA is bribing them? I don't like EA which is why I suggested it be in this trope but this whole thing was based solely on that scandal that occurred. Unless you have concrete proof and no assumptions it's a Conspiracy Theory and arguably breaches the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. Plus by your logic every game should have great critical reviews because they're being paid by the companies!

Also, yes, Colin Moriarty's review was biased, but apparently IGN had other staff members review the game and these feedbacks didn't appear as biased and even pointed out some flaws, however none of them hated the game. There's also the Toonami review that everyone who watched it liked that said the ending was a letdown but the game was good. So the ME 3 game itself is defensible without bribes.

And oh, I don't think this is getting anywhere since we're both arguing in circles, best to wait until DA 3 comes out.

xie323

10:53:21 AM May 25th 2012edited by xie323

Most of the people in my Warcraft lore forum claimed they liked the game but hated the ending.

On the other hand....if adding an entry for EA isn't enough of a compromise, and adding Bioware is too broad at the moment. A second compromise should be to add Casey Hudson himself as an entry, as he has A LOT of responsibility for the ending assuming the Extended Cut fails to please.

But at the moment, Bioware itself isn't in, because it will be too broad and because of the implications it may have about other gaming companies, such as Blizzard that for some reason, hasn't been on here despite it losing players to other MM Os, had the recent Diablo III fiasco along with all the massive Base Breaker status going on in it's forums, but for some reason, people say Bioware does belong here.

xie323

11:00:58 AM May 25th 2012edited by xie323

I do not believe that Blizzard is this trope, just believe that calling Bioware this trope will make the definition of this broad.

I am just adding in new data, sorry about that. But yeah, best wait till Dragon Age 3 before people make more accusations.

xie323

03:41:36 PM Jun 26th 2012edited by xie323

Some new data:

Looking at regular BSN forum posts on the Extended Cut, I can safely say that there is a good amount of people who feel Bioware has redeemed themselves in a small extent in their eyes, and another equally large number of people that believes that this dosen't solve anything. Still, it seems that everyone is more cautious about buying from Bioware at the moment. But when I look at it reaction of the Extended Cut, it "seems", or at least seems on the forums, to lean towards positive at the moment.

So it seems at the moment the base is slightly less broken. If Bioware pulls something off big for DA 3 it could fix the fanbase and possibly vindicate them.

Looks like the internet has delivered a powerful blow to the stockholders and pretty much the entire entire internet is celebrating at how EA is going to collapse.

xie323

10:13:09 PM Sep 5th 2012

Thanks for the new data. While nothing has come out of Bioware recently that may change anything, I hope they take the opportunity to leave EA before the damage is done. They have gained some respect back in my eyes with the way they handled the extended cut, but I'll be wary of what they do since the ME 3 ending.

This has cemented my view of EA as "fallen" even more, say what you want about Bioware, EA is worse and is arguably the propagator of all this! I await the day when EA fully capsizes.....it will be the dawn of a new Renaissance in gaming without a "black hole" to consume all the licenses they find!

thebobmaster

07:57:55 PM Sep 16th 2012

Problem is, if EA goes down, it will take all the companies under it with it. You say you celebrate the possibility of EA sinking, but would you be happy if that happened to Bioware? Or DICE? Or Criterion? Or Mythic?

ReiKusanagi

03:30:25 AM Mar 10th 2013edited by 216.99.32.45

I don't think EA/Bioware would really fit due to their excellent PR control. Sure some will hate their stuff but the masses will still eat it up.

Update: In wake of the Simcity fiasco, not even their PR is saving them from the flak coming their way.

I am deciding to follow up on the whole Bioware Fallen Creator Status. There had been a lot more haters and a lot of Internet Counterattacks going on at the forums. The only reason why game journalism won't attack them is because they are paid for by EA to keep quiet and give them 9-10 point ratings. Or didn't you notice how EA now implemented a zero tolerance policy towards anyone dissenting on their forums about their games?

asaqe

09:33:40 AM Mar 6th 2012

Also Mass Effect will be a financial success but at the cost of alienating even more fans than before.

DonutMess

10:58:26 AM May 25th 2012

That's a great way of thinking: everyone who doesn't agree with the way I think is a dumbfuck who can't think for themselves.

About Bioware becoming fallen creators, didn't you heard about places like GameFAQs and Something Awful have been recently devoting all of their hate towards Dragon Age 2 and newer franchises for destroying all they stood for. Talking about horror stories about how Bioware silence anyone who dares to even criticize their games in a style that is Brezhnev's "Silence everyone, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil".

Bioware has fallen and only the game reviewers who were paid by Electronic Arts to keep them from ripping the game to shreds would speak negative things about it. Or did Gerstgate not reminds you what happens when you try to turn against the game creators by supporting a deviant opinion.

ClockworkNinja

08:48:48 PM Jan 3rd 2012edited by ClockworkNinja

This page is about when pretty much everyone agrees that the creator has stopped making any good work and has just started making terrible crap that is universally hated. Bioware hasn't made anything that was critically panned, and the only thing I could find that has a low score by users on Metacritic was Dragon Age II, with The Old Republic having an okay score and the rest having positive scores.

Something Awful always focus on the negative and even if they are focusing all of their hate towards Bioware, they aren't the entire internet or the entire fanbase, and you can't claim that no one likes their work because of the forums of two websites, even if you don't like what they did to their franchises.

Conspiracy theories on Bioware/EA bribing critics and silencing detractors aren't evidence that shows that everyone hates their games either and it wouldn't make them a Fallen Creator either unless they had bribed thousands of players and reviewers into lying about their opinion of the games.

gyrbot

10:44:44 PM Jan 3rd 2012edited by gyrbot

Also the vandalism done to the Old Republic can be a sign of a Fallen Creator. Things normally don't get this bad if you didn't piss off the internet community.

It's kind of hard to take Wikipedia vandalism as a sign of hate from the internet, it could be lots of people vandalizing the page or just a few, as anyone can edit an unprotected article (and its semiprotected now), and people are undoing the damage as quickly as it goes up so people are defending the game. Even if SW:TOR and Dragon Age 2 are hated by the internet that doesn't make Bioware a Fallen Creator because they still have a very large fandom and lots of hype for their next game.

gyrbot

11:32:14 AM Jan 6th 2012edited by gyrbot

If I could make a comparison to the opening quote, the haters right now are the internet and the lovers are those who rarely care about the deeper parts of the internet and thus more impressionable. I mean Metacritic bombs don't happen unless you piss off the internet community. They may not have fallen sales wise but they are now officially vilified by the gaming community

Geoff Johns does NOT belong on this page. He's a big writer still and his stuff is mostly acclaimed by fans and critics. Brightest Day is an exception, but it hasn't caused a huge hit to his prestige like Bendis has taken.

Moreover, some of that explanation is irrational. Jaime Reyes is 'The Wesley?' His comic wasn't commercially successful, but it was a critical smash hit and Jaime became a breakout character through it. How is it Johns' fault Jim Lee is a slow artist?

biznizz

01:57:29 AM Jul 9th 2011edited by biznizz

Searching.... Oh, now I see. THAT entry was created by Jamie Gumb, one of the biggest trolls this Wiki has. Just ignore everything he / she writes. Yeah, that troper has caused trouble on the Brightest Day page too. And seems to despise Jaime Reyes with a passion dispite knowing almost dick about him (you can tell that someone was a Ted Kord Fanboy / Fangirl). Not to mention that part of that tirade against Jim Lee (who I personally have mixed feelings about) is that All-Star Batman & Robin isn't finished? Umm... did I fall into an Alternate Universe where it was good? Apparently not since it's listed as part of Frank Miller & his fall from grace.

Smells like a disgruntled scans_daily poster stirring shit up here. Anyway to ban or block him / her?

biznizz

01:45:38 AM Jul 27th 2011edited by biznizz

Lol... I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm gonna save some of this entry, if only to keep for a record for posterity of this person's utter hatred. I mean, my god! You can literally feel the venom in those words as you read them! If a mod doesn't want this on, send me a note & I'll take it down, or move it to my troper's page. But this tale of a person's (technically two, but I think the two were really the same person using two handles) complete & utter meltdown should be seen for everyone. (Lightysnake included, but I actually think this troper was seriously in the right).

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with his own creation, who he has since shamelessly whored out via the media arm of DC Comics (with him writing the episode of Smallville that was designed as a pilot for a Blue Beetle TV series, which thankfully flopped), all the while telling fans of Ted Kord to suck it because "resurrecting Ted would hurt Jaime Reyes's ability to find an audience". Even though Jaime Reyes has been a complete financial flop (even in his other media tie-ins, via the failure of his stealth pilot and AQUAMAN upstaging him as the break-out character of Brave and the Bold) and Geoff Johns made contradictory statements about Green Lantern and wanting all four of the G Ls to have their spotlight. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions and even named his 20010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", as a means to taunt fans who want a softer and lighter DC Universe.

5th May '11 5:20:03 PM Lightysnake
Not even going to comment on most of this, but Brightest Day is not titled so because he's 'mocking' anyone. Oh, and Keith Giffen created Jamie Reyes Never mind the insane Jamie hatred here...

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't kill off the much loathed Green Lanterns John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, or Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen series and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night.

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.''

6th May '11 12:52:14 PM Lightysnake
License To Whine. You don't have it. Johns is still a well regarded and popular writer.

6th May '11 1:51:02 PM Jamie GumbShut the hell up; Blackest Night, Brightest Day, and the Flash relaunch has turned a good chunk of fans against Geoff. Not to mention the John/Kyle fan who hate him for bringing back Hal and hate his gore fetish

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth (a statement that has semi-cooled longstanding complaints from John Stewart and Kyle Rayner fans who dislike Geoff's blatant favoritism towards Hal over the other Lanterns). Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.

The gore is another major complaint about Geoff Johns. Green Lantern, since the Sinestro Corps War, features at least one murder or maiming minimum per issue.

It got worse: Brightest Day ended with Geoff "fixing" Swamp Thing via killing off the existing version of Swamp Thing just so that he could resurrect Alec Holland and turn him into a grim and gritty version of Swamp Thing, effectively restoring the 1970s Lein Wein version of the character. Not to mention Geoff getting his grubby paws on John Constantine, though to appease the writers of the character's comic, they are now creating "TWO" John Constantines, effectively reducing Hellblazer to alternate continuity status.

Not to mention the fact that JLA fans hate him, in large part because Geoff has personally vetoed the restoration of the "Big Seven" roster in the book, saving that for himself for a plan run on the title... which will be drawn by Jim Lee, king of the late books. As such, JLA fans have had to suffer through a cadre of random roster generator line-ups with writers unable to use any of the Big Guns until Jim Lee finishes up Geoff's scripts for him. Which might never happen this decade since Lee is insanely slow and still has to finish up All-Star Batman and Robin first....

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth (a statement that has semi-cooled longstanding complaints from John Stewart and Kyle Rayner fans who dislike Geoff's blatant favoritism towards Hal over the other Lanterns). Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.

The gore is major complaint about Geoff Johns. Green Lantern, since the Sinestro Corps War, features at least one murder or maiming minimum per issue. Not to mention the running gag that Geoff has established with Risk, who keeps losing limbs every time he runs into Superboy Prime.

It got worse: Brightest Day ended with Geoff "fixing" Swamp Thing via killing off the existing version of Swamp Thing just so that he could resurrect Alec Holland and turn him into Swamp Thing, effectively restoring the 1970s Lein Wein version of the character and erasing Alan Moore's version of the character from existence. Not to mention Geoff getting his grubby paws on John Constantine, though to appease the writers of the character's comic, they are now creating "TWO" John Constantines, effectively reducing Hellblazer to alternate continuity status.

Same could be said about the Parallax retcon for Hal Jordan, as many fans disliked how Geoff effectively declared that Hal was innocent all along and have everyone but Batman accept it without question. Many fans, even some Hal Jordan fans, complained that it was a cheap cop-out.

Not to mention the fact that JLA fans hate him, in large part because Geoff has personally vetoed the restoration of the "Big Seven" roster in the book, saving that for himself for a plan run on the title... which will be drawn by Jim Lee, king of the late books. As such, JLA fans have had to suffer through a cadre of random roster generator line-ups with writers unable to use any of the Big Guns until Jim Lee finishes up Geoff's scripts for him. Which might never happen this decade since Lee is insanely slow and still has to finish up All-Star Batman and Robin first....

6th May '11 2:46:52 PM Lightysnake
1. You don't speak for everyone. 2. Brightest day was not universally hated. Neither was the Flash reboot, nor Blackest Night by a longshot. Critically or commercially. Hal's revival wasn't universally hated, either. Most of these weren't even largely hated.

(Deleted entry again, due to reasonable reasons listed)

12th May '11 11:34:51 AM Revengers69
Since Lightysnake is going to be a cockblocker and not let Geoff Johns be included because of Butthurt, NO examples should be put here. Make it like Small Name Big Ego, since Lightysnake had to ruin it for everyone.....

(DELETED THE WHOLE FREAKING PAGE)
(Page restored by Old Man Ho Oh)
Edit warring is bad, but that's a bit much, 'specially considering you're not a mod. And both you and Jamie Gumb have hardly been editing cooly. I mean, "cockblocker"? Seriously?

14th May '11 1:58:23 AM Revengers69

Geoff Johns has become this trope in the last year: Brightest Day was a complete and total flop critically, being viewed as muddled mess with no coherent plot that doesn't even come into play until the last two issues when Swamp Thing shows up out of nowhere and his Flash run, featuring Barry Allen, has been treated like a red-headed stepchild by the Wally West fans that dominate the book's fanbase. Even more telling is Flashpoint, an Age of Apocalypse meets House of M type alternate reality book being greeted with yawns and utter apathy at best and scorn at worst, given how Brightest Day pretty much derailed any interest most readers had in the never-ending spree of Crisis Crossovers Geoff Johns has helped plot out for DC since 2005.

14th May '11 8:41:44 PM Lightysnake

If you're going to add someone, please don't make things up. BD was nothing close to a flop. While I would share the criticisms and genuinely disliked the event, it wasn't that panned. Flashpoint hasn't been met with 'aparthy or scorn' by and large either. I don't even like Johns that much these days, but he doesn't belong here yet, unlike Bendis. I made a post on the discussion page. You disagree, then take it there, explain your reasoning and provide evidence

I'm reminded of something Interactive Fiction author Sarah Morayatti said in an interview: "If a smash hit has mostly male characters, no one raises an eyebrow, but if it has mostly female characters, it's a Great Big Anomaly worth several trees' worth of shocked speculation."

Yes, the X-Men books in Claremont's heyday had lots of strong female characters. But I do not see why this is, or should be, a bad thing.

As for the rest, I'd have to agree that Claremont DID over-use certain plot elements. And he DID seem to plan too much for 'the real long term' not even thinking about how changes in Marvel editorial would affect those long-term plans. The latter part of his run on the X-books had him facing plenty of Executive Meddling (which involved, among other things, the original creation of X-Factor), and his original ideas for the backstories of Mystique and Mr. Sinister ended up never seeing print.

Anyway, his more recent work certainly isn't as highly regarded as his 80's X-Men work. A number of fans didn't care for his run on Exiles, and his X-Men Forever (set in an alternate reality) lost a number of people after issue #5 due to its 'mutant powers are killing them' revelation. So yes, I'd say he probably should be listed here.

But 'strong female characters' shouldn't be one of the reasons why.

ReiKusanagi

10:18:39 PM Nov 23rd 2013

well some might think that in the case of said females being stronger than they should be (but considering this is the X-men, some female mutants are REALLY powerful), but I don't have much of an idea on this.

Question: would Capcom fit on this pade? There's been a lot of controversy over the blatant plagiarism of 'Splosion Man (with MaXplosion), to the point that people have even outright said "fuck you" to Capcom (over the internet but still). We might have to wait and see, but the signs are beginning to show.

Rebochan

12:08:01 AM Jan 14th 2011

They are having some really bad fiscal reports in the last few years, for that matter, though I've been really sheltered from the current crisis.

Midna

09:38:40 AM Jul 21st 2011edited by Midna

If fan reaction is anything to go by, the cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3 is only digging themselves deeper. Should I add them in?

EDIT: Never mind, they're already on there.

Carls493

10:30:24 AM Jul 21st 2011

Yeah. This was something that needed to be acknowledged there, even though my full opinion on Capcom isn't much different.

Is the entry on Yoshio Sakamoto really necessary? The "fall" was just a single game of passable quality that is far from universally reviled by the fanbase. Only if the trend gets larger, say, with a game that's actually bad, will the entry serve any purpose.

The guy's pretty much been hated for not being Retro anyway, and having a blogger spreading lies about him means I suspect he will constantly be added to this page.

ReiKusanagi

03:53:10 AM Mar 10th 2013

I seen an article pointing out all the sexist things in Other M... and I can't bring myself to defend it. Honestly I have no idea if all that was intentional on Sakamoto's part, but even then I can't say he's quite a fallen creator as he hasn't exactly reached a terribly high point as he inherited the Metroid series from the Late Gunpei Yukoi. Though if crashing a series' reputation into the ground with a single game counts....

Okay, since people are arguing a lot about whether Joss Whedon should be here, I think its fair game to discuss him.

For reference, the last time he came up, I made the comment that since Dollhouse hadn't even premiered (then), it was unfair to judge him until we saw how it did. Since Dollhouse crashed and burned, he got re-added and I didn't argue since it does seem to be a pretty nasty slump for him.

On the other hand, he's also continued to have successes buried in there and continues to get employment. A long-term bout of fan friction isn't necessarily the bullet to the head unless its particularly harsh.

So let's discuss him here and now, post-Dollhouse and on the cusp of another Doctor Horrible project.

182.237.4.113

02:50:26 AM Jul 7th 2010

Personally, I argue that there's enough justification for him to be on the page, largely due to the following passage:

"The true defining trait of the Fallen Creator is the large drop in prestige, even after factoring out the usual Fan Dumb that chases creators wherever they go. It is not necessarily permanent; even if it is, there could still be a partial comeback. Artistic taste can be fickle."

Joss is obviously not Fallen for everyone, but post-Serenity and post-Dollhouse he was Fallen for a *lot* of people. He may recover, he may not, but he's earned his place here for now.

RickHavoc

07:51:02 PM Jul 30th 2010

No argument that, as far as some are concerned, Whedon deserves his spot here. However, his recent confirmation as director of the upcoming Avengers movie could be solid evidence that the majority — including the ones who count the most, studios & networks — feel differently. Then again, Jeph Loeb just fell into becoming VP of Marvel's TV division, so being deemed employable is not conclusive across the board.

Darkmane

02:31:42 AM Jul 31st 2010

I agree he belongs here for now - depending on the Avengers film that may or may not change.

theclam5678

06:30:06 PM Aug 24th 2010

Its virtually guaranteed that the Avengers is going to be good especially because his murderous tendencies are tempered by lack of full writing control. That and if Marvel didnt trust him they wouldn't put him in charge of their cash cow franchise.

oaclo

08:46:15 PM Sep 2nd 2010

I suppose I can't argue his place here if there is a sizable portion of his fandom that considers him fallen but I do have to wonder as to why that is the case. He's had a string of great shows that rightfully earned fandoms, including the recent Dr. Horrible, but when one of his shows gets cancelled (in its second season I might add. Even if it was unexpected that it got renewed, that's still more than a whole lot of other shows get) and that makes him fallen? I just don't really follow.

182.237.4.113

01:24:19 PM Sep 14th 2010

Joss is rather odd in that he's repeatedly created popular shows with strong fandoms, but simultaneously pissed off people from his previous fandom(s) every time. The hatedom is cumulative with Joss, not just garnered off one particular project. And once he's Fallen for someone, I've never known him to claw that person back.

It seems to me that Whedon does not belong here for the same reason that several others do not belong here. It's a little weird to take somebody who has had several successful franchises, then a single or even a couple of flops, yet continues to get high profile work and call him a "Fallen Creator." Flops are to be expected for anybody who works hard on multiple projects. It's a fact of life. In order to be a fallen creator, the artist should need either a string of flops or a single performance SO BAD that career recovery is impossible. This page is just too harsh in my opinion and it makes the trope basically meaningless. An artist would have to maintain the same level of popularity as just after his first breakout performance in order to AVOID this page. It would be a shorter list to compile the names of people who have never had a single black mark on their resume.

"The other main designer on Doom, John Carmack fared much better than Romero initially, with Quake II and III and Return to Castle Wolfenstein being major hits. However, the reputation of both Carmack and iD Software in general has been heading steadily downhill since then; Doom 3 was commercially successful, but not particularly well received by the gaming community, Quake 4 failed to match up to expectations, and both Enemy Territory: Quake Wars and Wolfenstein were huge failures. All this, combined with the vaporware status of Rage, has left both Carmack and iD with a reputation that's barely any better than that of Romero."

All I can say is lolwut? Doom 3 has 3 generallypositive ratings on gaming websites, even if it do have a fair Hate Dom among older Doom fans. ET:QW was a top seller in both the UK and the US and it still has a reasonably active community today (The console ports did flop but iD wasn't behind them). The Wolfenstein reboot wasn't by them, and neither was Quake 4 (which still performed very well) for that matter. Even if iD's reputation isn't as sterling as it used to, saying it's "barely better than Romero" seems to be very exagerated... in my experience, anyway.

ReiKusanagi

10:21:45 PM Nov 23rd 2013

I find that hard to believe as well as iD may not be a super popular company, people remember their old works fondly and don't regard it as a massive joke like Daikatana.

Community

Tropes HQ

TVTropes is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License. Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org. Privacy Policy