Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The German edition of what? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
"The Destruction of Dresden". 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your book? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In which you name Dr Funfack as a source for these 6figures, is that right? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
If you say so, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"'Exactly like everyone else'", goes on Dr Funfack, 9"'affected, I have only ever heard the numbers third-hand 10from city commandants with whom I was friends, from the 11civilian air raid protection, etc. But the numbers always 12differed greatly, I myself was only once present at a 13cremation on the Altmarkt, but otherwise completely 14uninvolved. Likewise, I was never Dresden's Chief Medical 15Officer or even Deputy Chief Medical Officer, rather I was 16always working, or worked, I always worked as a specialist 17urologist in a hospital. How one comes to such 18suppositions is incomprehensible to me. I did not have 19the slightest to do with rendering any such services. The 20photos of the cremations on the Altmarkt as well as the 21"Order of the Day 47" were also given to me by 22acquaintances. Therefore, I can give no firm 23[verbindliche] Information about the figure of the dead 24but only repeat what was reported to me'." 25 Mr Irving, from that date you knew, did you not, 26that Dr Funfack was not your man?

. P-111

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I comment first on the person of Dr Funfack? 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, answer the question first and then go 3back to that. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the answer is, no, I did not accept that. My Lord, 5I gave you a little glossy brochure, a brown brochure, and 6if we were to open up the middle picture, it opens -- the 7middle, that is the picture section of my book, "The 8Destruction of Dresden", and you will see a rather 9horrible scene of the burning -- of the public cremation 10of the air raid victims; and Dr Funfack is one of the 11uniformed characters in the background of that picture. 12He had been identified to me on that and other photographs 13standing on top of one of the heaps of 1,000 bodies 14waiting to cremated. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he says he attended one cremation at 16the Altmarkt? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, that is correct. He was wearing Nazi uniform, a Nazi 18Party uniform. He is living in East Germany. They are 19all wearing uniform in that picture. He is living in East 20Germany a quiet life as a retired doctor in 1965, and this 21letter and the subsequent letter which he wrote me, which 22I am not sure if Mr Rampton is relying upon ---- 23MR RAMPTON: Yes. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
--- makes it quite plain his agony at having been 25mentioned in the West German press. In the subsequent 26letter which I will draw your attention to ----

. P-112

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will tell you its date. It is 19th March, I think, 21965. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
19th March, which is page 51, is it? Yes, page 51 of the 4bundle. He refers to his friendship with the City 5Commandant, General Mehnert, "who was a close friend of 6mine" and he anxiously then goes on to say, "He was, God 7knows, no Hitler fan, and for this reason he was 8particularly sympathetic in my -- sympathetically in my 9memory", and he continues either in this letter or in the 10next letter which he wrote, which I will now find, very 11significantly to say that the information that he had been 12mentioned in the West German press was brought to him by 13the officers of the Ideological Department of the 14Socialist Unity Party in East Germany who gave him a very 15rough time. 16 Now, I think it does not take very much 17perception or imagination to perceive the reasons why he 18now denies that he was a senior medical officer in 19Dresden. I will put it no more strongly than that. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is it, is it, Mr Irving? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you had no positive basis for continuing to assert that 23Dr Funfack, not only was Deputy Chief Medical Officer of 24Dresden at the time, but would know the figures? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I had had a lot of correspondence with people living 26behind the Iron Curtain, and I am very familiar with this

. P-113

1kind of letter. All three letters that he wrote to me are 2riddled with the kind of sentences that one put in letters 3that one knows are going to be read by the Gestapo or by 4the Communist letter censorship authorities, repeating 5that his close friends were dedicated anti-Nazis, and so 6on. The information that I had that he was Deputy Chief 7Medical Officer of Dresden came from a reasonable and 8reliable source. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which was? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. But, obviously, I would not have stated it 11off the top of my head. But I would also draw your 12attention to the passage which Professor Evans has left 13out immediately following the part which he quotes, and 14I will translate it for you, after the words, "I can only 15repeat what was reported to me", and he then says what was 16reported to him which, for some reason, your expert has 17left out: "The City Commandant" ---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, you are going just a little bit fast. 19I am trying to keep up with the highlighting. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I am continuing the quotation from January 19th 1965, my 21Lord. The letter of January 16th -- January 19th 1965, 22pages 41 and 42. 23MR RAMPTON: It is on page 42, my Lord, I think. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
On page 42. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The sentence begins half way along the line at the first 26quarter of the page ----

. P-114

1A.
[Mr Irving]
[German - document not provided] I am relying on that 2sentence which says: "The City Commandant, General 3Mehnert", who was a friend of Funfack, as he stated 4earlier in the letter, "spoke to me on about February 22nd 51945 of 140,000 dead, and Professor Fetscher" -- 6F-E-T-S-C-H-E-R -- "of the Civil Defence Organization 7spoke of 180,000 dead". And I should emphasise the fact 8that Professor Fetscher, the well-known Communist, a 9doctor, the father of very well-known West German 10politician now, Iring Fetscher -- I-R-I-N-G -- who was 11shot by the SS at the end of war, so it can be no 12suggestion that he was a Nazi propagandist, and that 13passage has been left out of the passage quoted by 14Professor Evans. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is there. It is on page 533 of Evans. It is a case 16for humble pie, perhaps. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I take that back but, of course, he has not quoted 18it in the apposite part, the appropriate part. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just let me see why he divides it up. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am sure he had his reasons, my Lord. 21MR RAMPTON: It is quite an interesting passage, is it not? 22Have you got 533? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. He goes on to say that the International Red Cross 24sent people to investigate Dresden and, as will you notice 25on the rest of the bundle, I then went to very great 26lengths contacting the International Red Cross, locating