A bachelors degree is the new high school deploma.

This showed up in one of the other threads, but I wanted to hear the opinion of everyone on this. The post by one of our fine members, informing us that a Burger King in his/her area was requiring a bachelors degree before an individual would be considered for a store management position, inspired this question in my mind.

Has degree inflation really gotten that bad? Is a bachelors degree equivalent in value to what a high school diploma was 30 years ago? Whats your opinion?

"If ignorance is bliss, why are the ignorant so angry?" Shannon Wheeler

It's not quite to that stage yet, but pretty close. It used to be (back when my parents graduated from university) that having a bachelor's degree would put you ahead of other job applicants, nowadays for most non-service level positions (Burger King etc) it's assumed that applicants will have a bachelor's degree.

You can still get a diploma from a voc/tech high school that will allow you to become a plumbing apprentice. Once your apprenticeship is done and you're a licensed plumber you have the potential to make a lot of money (if that's a legitimate goal). I know a plumber who's younger than me who earns more than I earn. He may always earn more than I earn because he owns his own company and is expanding his service area, etc. etc. I do not regret any of my academic decisions but I also know that there are other paths that can be followed.

Yep :) Anymore you can't find a job doing squat without a Bachelors and I think it is even getting to the point where they would rather have that piece of paper instead of 10 years experience in some places.

Take the burger king example... i wonder if they would hire someone who had 4 years experience working as a manager but no degree?

Oops, I didn't fact check. But it doesn't really matter because that does not negate the question it brought up. And, who's to say that one specific BK is not requiring a bachelors? They are franchises and, being a previous franchise owner myself, I know owners have some latitude in their hiring requirements.

"If ignorance is bliss, why are the ignorant so angry?" Shannon Wheeler

Oops, I didn't fact check. But it doesn't really matter because that does not negate the question it brought up. And, who's to say that one specific BK is not requiring a bachelors? They are franchises and, being a previous franchise owner myself, I know owners have some latitude in their hiring requirements.

I had also answered this question some time back. No, BK does not require a BA to be a manager, although they do like their general managers to have at least two years of college. Considering they are only paid about $35,000 per year, there are likely better options for college grads anyway (depending upon the unemployment rate where you live).

I know I keep going back to Home Depot, but their store managers are required to have a BA. On the other hand, they do make more than $100,000 per year, plus bonuses.

BA in Communications - Excelsior College (in progress)
Course work at Penn Foster College (3.85 GPA)
Course work at Andrew Jackson University (4.0 GPA)

I want to say, "Yes," to this for an entirely different reason, but it would be a somewhat facetious answer.

I collect textbooks and have been doing so for years. I buy them from our local library, at garage sales, from used book stores, and sometimes online. I have books that are from as long ago as the late 1800s to as recent as 2008.

There has been a definite, marked "dumbing down" of the curriculum. I've heard people make this claim, and I've heard people fiercely deny it. I'm basing it only on what I can tangibly see. For instance, I have one literature book that has readings from such writers as Dickens, Shakespeare, Poe, Hawthorne, Tennyson, Longfellow, and Emerson. (And they are not summarized or paraphrased.) There's an entire section of original documents and letters from the Founding Fathers and various presidents. The book is over 500 pages, and each passage has essay questions following it.

The kicker is, this book is from 1936 and is called "Junior High School Literature" (emphasis added). It's published by Scott, Foresman and Company. They are still around today (merged with another company), and when you compare their modern lit books with this - well, there is no comparison. I have *high school* literature books that are less demanding than this one.

Or, to put it another way - the PearsonSchool website says this on its lit page: "Remember when you first started teaching high school literature? You imagined students pouring into class eager to talk about your favorite contemporary or traditional literature books. The reality is a little different - students' packed schedules, their growing pains, pressures at home, and the buzzing digital world make those great discussions a huge challenge. Yet every now and then you experience those break-through moments."

What does it say about our curriculum and society when even the publishers are sorta saying, "Yeah. Don't get your hopes up. Occasionally, something wonderful will happen, but mostly, it's a lost cause."?

So, in a sense, you could say a bachelor's is the new high school diploma because you could probably convincingly argue that today it takes a bachelor's to equal the education of a high school diploma from a generation or two ago.

If you're really curious about this sort of thing, you might want to look at this:Browse the NYSL Digital Collections - This is an archive of New York high school exams, going back as far as the 30s. (There's a business law test that's no longer given, which I found interesting. Of course, this is probably just me.... heh.)

GW University is a prestigious and well regarded school. Established in the heart of the nation's capital in 1821, GW provides innovative programs in more than 200 fields of study, including graduate certificate, master's and doctoral programs. Under the guidance of a world-renowned faculty, you will explore both theory and practice in courses that prepare you to meet the needs of an increasingly complex society.

Teachers play an important role in fostering the intellectual and social development of children during their formative years. The education that students acquire is key to determining the future of those students. Whether in elementary or high schools or in private or public schools, teachers provide the tools and the environment for their students to develop into responsible adults.
Teachers act as facilitators or coaches, using classroom presentations or individual instruction to help students learn and apply concepts in subjects such as science, mathematics, and English. They plan, evaluate, and assign lessons; prepare, administer, and grade tests; listen to oral presentations; and maintain classroom discipline. Teachers observe and evaluate a student's performance and potential. They are increasingly asked to use new assessment methods

•Public school teachers must be licensed, which typically requires a bachelor's degree and the completion of an approved teacher education program; private school teachers do not have to be licensed but may still need a bachelor's degree.
•Job prospects are best for teachers in high-demand fields, such as mathematics, science, and bilingual education, and in less desirable urban or rural school districts.
•Teachers must have the ability to communicate, inspire trust and confidence, and motivate students, as well as understand students' educational and emotional needs.

I don't know what part of the country that you live in, but in my neck of the woods the unemployment rate is high. If you are an employer in an area of high unemployment (entire US) you would be an idiot to not try and narrow the field to ensure the best applicants. I think that is the real issue with the BK analogy. If I was an out of work former manager with an MBA , and I needed to feed my family, I'd be the first to apply.

I don't know what part of the country that you live in, but in my neck of the woods the unemployment rate is high. If you are an employer in an area of high unemployment (entire US) you would be an idiot to not try and narrow the field to ensure the best applicants. I think that is the real issue with the BK analogy. If I was an out of work former manager with an MBA, and I needed to feed my family, I'd be the first to apply.

Years ago, I used to own a 1800 Flowers store with my wife. In the recession of 1991 we had aerospace engineers applying for delivery driver jobs. Unfortunately, I could not offer them jobs because they were overqualified. I knew they would stay with me just until they found any better job and then leave me cold. I can't say I would blame them.

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Engineers apply the principles of science and mathematics to develop economical solutions to technical problems. Their work is the link between scientific discoveries and the commercial applications that meet societal and consumer needs.
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In addition to their involvement in design and development, many engineers work in testing, production, or maintenance. These engineers supervise production in factories, determine the causes of a component’s failure, and test manufactured products to maintain quality. They also estimate the time and cost required to complete projects.

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"If ignorance is bliss, why are the ignorant so angry?" Shannon Wheeler

I want to say, "Yes," to this for an entirely different reason, but it would be a somewhat facetious answer.

I collect textbooks and have been doing so for years. I buy them from our local library, at garage sales, from used book stores, and sometimes online. I have books that are from as long ago as the late 1800s to as recent as 2008.

There has been a definite, marked "dumbing down" of the curriculum. I've heard people make this claim, and I've heard people fiercely deny it. I'm basing it only on what I can tangibly see. For instance, I have one literature book that has readings from such writers as Dickens, Shakespeare, Poe, Hawthorne, Tennyson, Longfellow, and Emerson. (And they are not summarized or paraphrased.) There's an entire section of original documents and letters from the Founding Fathers and various presidents. The book is over 500 pages, and each passage has essay questions following it.

The kicker is, this book is from 1936 and is called "Junior High School Literature" (emphasis added). It's published by Scott, Foresman and Company. They are still around today (merged with another company), and when you compare their modern lit books with this - well, there is no comparison. I have *high school* literature books that are less demanding than this one.

Or, to put it another way - the PearsonSchool website says this on its lit page: "Remember when you first started teaching high school literature? You imagined students pouring into class eager to talk about your favorite contemporary or traditional literature books. The reality is a little different - students' packed schedules, their growing pains, pressures at home, and the buzzing digital world make those great discussions a huge challenge. Yet every now and then you experience those break-through moments."

What does it say about our curriculum and society when even the publishers are sorta saying, "Yeah. Don't get your hopes up. Occasionally, something wonderful will happen, but mostly, it's a lost cause."?

So, in a sense, you could say a bachelor's is the new high school diploma because you could probably convincingly argue that today it takes a bachelor's to equal the education of a high school diploma from a generation or two ago.

If you're really curious about this sort of thing, you might want to look at this:Browse the NYSL Digital Collections - This is an archive of New York high school exams, going back as far as the 30s. (There's a business law test that's no longer given, which I found interesting. Of course, this is probably just me.... heh.)

While you have an excellent point regarding literature, how would the science and technology compare? Perhaps as we move into an information age, more focus is put on science and less on literature? Just another way to look at it.

GW University is a prestigious and well regarded school. Established in the heart of the nation's capital in 1821, GW provides innovative programs in more than 200 fields of study, including graduate certificate, master's and doctoral programs. Under the guidance of a world-renowned faculty, you will explore both theory and practice in courses that prepare you to meet the needs of an increasingly complex society.

Teachers play an important role in fostering the intellectual and social development of children during their formative years. The education that students acquire is key to determining the future of those students. Whether in elementary or high schools or in private or public schools, teachers provide the tools and the environment for their students to develop into responsible adults.
Teachers act as facilitators or coaches, using classroom presentations or individual instruction to help students learn and apply concepts in subjects such as science, mathematics, and English. They plan, evaluate, and assign lessons; prepare, administer, and grade tests; listen to oral presentations; and maintain classroom discipline. Teachers observe and evaluate a student's performance and potential. They are increasingly asked to use new assessment methods

•Public school teachers must be licensed, which typically requires a bachelor's degree and the completion of an approved teacher education program; private school teachers do not have to be licensed but may still need a bachelor's degree.
•Job prospects are best for teachers in high-demand fields, such as mathematics, science, and bilingual education, and in less desirable urban or rural school districts.
•Teachers must have the ability to communicate, inspire trust and confidence, and motivate students, as well as understand students' educational and emotional needs.

In my area the Burger King out of ten management hires one was someone without a four year degree who was promoted from within, the rest had bachelors degrees and in one case a masters in the humanities. I'm not lying but in other areas it may be different.

In my area the Burger King out of ten management hires one was someone without a four year degree who was promoted from within, the rest had bachelors degrees and in one case a masters in the humanities. I'm not lying but in other areas it may be different.

Oh, I believe that but it is not the minumum to apply; who wins in the hiring process is another matter.

While you have an excellent point regarding literature, how would the science and technology compare? Perhaps as we move into an information age, more focus is put on science and less on literature? Just another way to look at it.

Unfortunately, the short answer to your first question is: Not as well as we would think or want.

While yes, we have made great strides in science and technology; have indeed learned a lot in the past few decades, we are not necessarily keeping pace with it in our high school environments.

Another book I have is something called "High School Subjects for Home Study" from 1939. It includes: astronomy, biology, physiology, psychology , chemistry, and physics, as well as several literature, history , and humanities courses.

Here's what's so interesting about this book. It was written for people who "for one reason or another, did not have the advantage of going through high school; while others did not take full advantage of the opportunities it offered while we were there." It "covers all the subjects that are ordinarily included in the four years devoted to high school; and carefully read, studied and digested, will give the equivalent of such a course."

It is for self-study; there are no teachers to help. Jumping to the physics section, there is a table of units and then it launches immediately into a discussion of mechanics.

Point being, it is clear that the assumption is these learners, who may not have attended high school at all, or apparently didn't pay much attention when they did, are still educated well enough to begin a study of materials written at a level higher than some of the more current high school textbooks I also have on my shelf.

Again, I am only comparing books to books here, not classrooms to classrooms. It could be that the use of the internet/computers is making up for the science-light!ness of the textbooks I have. Still, even though we *know* more, it seems like we're not teaching more in high schools, and are now waiting for college to cover these courses to a degree that previously was considered a high school level - which brings it all back to "Is a bachelor's the new high school diploma?"

Psychologists study mental processes and human behavior by observing, interpreting, and recording how people and animals relate to one another and the environment. To do this, psychologists often look for patterns that will help them understand and predict behavior using scientific methods, principles, or procedures to test their ideas. Through such research studies, psychologists have learned much that can help increase understanding between individuals, groups, organizations, institutions, nations, and cultures.

•Job opportunities are naturally best for individuals with higher degrees. Individuals with a doctoral degree are highly sought after, especially ones who holds degrees in a particularly in-demand subfield, such as health; those with a master’s degree will have good prospects in the corporate environment; bachelor’s degree holders will have limited prospects due to steep competition.•Employment growth will vary by specialty; for example, clinical, counseling, and school psychologists will have 11% growth; industrial-organizational psychologists will have 26% growth; and 14% growth is expected for all other fields of psychology.

Teachers play an important role in fostering the intellectual and social development of children during their formative years. The education that students acquire is key to determining the future of those students. Whether in elementary or high schools or in private or public schools, teachers provide the tools and the environment for their students to develop into responsible adults.
Teachers act as facilitators or coaches, using classroom presentations or individual instruction to help students learn and apply concepts in subjects such as science, mathematics, and English. They plan, evaluate, and assign lessons; prepare, administer, and grade tests; listen to oral presentations; and maintain classroom discipline. Teachers observe and evaluate a student's performance and potential. They are increasingly asked to use new assessment methods

•Public school teachers must be licensed, which typically requires a bachelor's degree and the completion of an approved teacher education program; private school teachers do not have to be licensed but may still need a bachelor's degree.
•Job prospects are best for teachers in high-demand fields, such as mathematics, science, and bilingual education, and in less desirable urban or rural school districts.
•Teachers must have the ability to communicate, inspire trust and confidence, and motivate students, as well as understand students' educational and emotional needs.

in IT i dont think degrees matter as much; i've done well with no college at all--and yes i do want a degree badly but its to enter the academic teaching arena--totally different ballgame.

a degree won't help me at all on the IT side, especially since my degree won't be IT related. i do know that i used to get students in my classes who were "computer science " or "mis" grads....they did not have any *current* or marketable skills when it came to getting a networking /database admin job. colleges still teach slightly outdated technology. to be competitive in IT, it's more about certifications.

Teachers play an important role in fostering the intellectual and social development of children during their formative years. The education that students acquire is key to determining the future of those students. Whether in elementary or high schools or in private or public schools, teachers provide the tools and the environment for their students to develop into responsible adults.
Teachers act as facilitators or coaches, using classroom presentations or individual instruction to help students learn and apply concepts in subjects such as science, mathematics, and English. They plan, evaluate, and assign lessons; prepare, administer, and grade tests; listen to oral presentations; and maintain classroom discipline. Teachers observe and evaluate a student's performance and potential. They are increasingly asked to use new assessment methods

•Public school teachers must be licensed, which typically requires a bachelor's degree and the completion of an approved teacher education program; private school teachers do not have to be licensed but may still need a bachelor's degree.
•Job prospects are best for teachers in high-demand fields, such as mathematics, science, and bilingual education, and in less desirable urban or rural school districts.
•Teachers must have the ability to communicate, inspire trust and confidence, and motivate students, as well as understand students' educational and emotional needs.

Information Technology (IT) has become an integral part of modern life. Among its most important functions are the efficient transmission of information and the storage and analysis of information. The workers described below all help individuals and organizations share and store information through computer networks and systems, the Internet, and computer databases.Network architects or network engineers are the designers of computer networks. Computer systems analysts use IT tools to help enterprises of all sizes achieve their goals. They may design and develop new computer systems by choosing and configuring hardware and software, or they may devise ways to apply existing systems' resources to additional tasks. Computer software engineers design and develop software. They apply the theories and principles of computer science and mathematical analysis to create, test, and evaluate the software applications and systems that make computers work.
IT Degrees also incorporates Web Development, Web Design, Computer Security, Programming, Technology Management, and Information Systems Management.

•Employment is projected to increase much faster than the average for all occupations. Job prospects are expected to be excellent.

Unfortunately, the short answer to your first question is: Not as well as we would think or want.

Another book I have is something called "High School Subjects for Home Study" from 1939. It includes: astronomy, biology, physiology, psychology, chemistry, and physics, as well as several literature, history, and humanities courses.

Sounds like a great book...that is why I just ordered it from Amazon for $1.25! I can't wait to read it. I am sure the astronomy section will have Pluto as a planet since it was discovered in 1930 but I can overlook the lack of accuracy ;)