Lex really lacks in the ability to evaluate and make sensible jugdments. I swear people like him will use ANYTHING to prove one group is better, smarter, and stronger than the other.
It's been going on for thousands of years, this is the worst kind of stupidity because it is blind.

There are probably as many definitions of intelligence as there are experts who study it. Simply put, however, intelligence is the ability to learn about, learn from, understand, and interact with one’s environment. This general ability consists of a number of specific abilities, which include these specific abilities:

* Adaptability to a new environment or to changes in the current environment
* Capacity for knowledge and the ability to acquire it
* Capacity for reason and abstract thought
* Ability to comprehend relationships
* Ability to evaluate and judge
* Capacity for original and productive thought

I think we should get this clear with a DEFINITION of intelligence.

Intelligence derives from the latin word, intellegere, which means to 'understand'.

Well, I've already stated it, but in my not so humble opinion, ESFP "intelligence" is not intelligence. Interpersonal relationship skills may be objectively acquired, as is evident by the "mask of sanity" adopted by psychopathic serial killers, who understand social mores, understand proper social etiquette, but have no, or little, empathy. Therefore, having "people skills" is not necessarily a sign of intelligence, only concern.

If you wish to point out certain character traits you find desirable in an ESFP, that is a different matter, but don't conflate interpersonal skills with intelligence.

That whole argument basically said 'You're Wrong, I'm Right. My type of 'intelligence' is the holy one. I'm the best.'

Lex makes a distinction between sheer raw intelligence and the way it is expressed, and then proceeds to judge ESFPs by the way they express their intelligence. Isn't the raw brain power the real intelligence, but I do agree that an INTJ will be judged by westren society's standrads as more intelligent.

Westren society values hard working serious minded people.
Society in the west tends to think impulsive behaviour(perceiving) is irresponsible and foolish. But other societies value going with the flow, adapting.
Adapting is something an ESFP should be VERY good at, and if I can recall, being able to adapt to new and changing environments is one of the definitions of being smart.

INTJs express their intelligence in their great vision and planning and ESFPs express their intelligence in being able to quickly adapt and respond to the environment. But this does not mean INTJs are totally rigid and ESFPs can't plan ahead.

Well, I've already stated it, but in my not so humble opinion, ESFP "intelligence" is not intelligence. Interpersonal relationship skills may be objectively acquired, as is evident by the "mask of sanity" adopted by psychopathic serial killers, who understand social mores, understand proper social etiquette, but have no, or little, empathy. Therefore, having "people skills" is not necessarily a sign of intelligence, only concern.

If you wish to point out certain character traits you find desirable in an ESFP, that is a different matter, but don't conflate interpersonal skills with intelligence.

If that's any kind of an argument, than on the flip side you can say that anyone can acquire calculus, quantum physics, philosophy, and any number of other subjects- and then show off their skills- while still having little or no interest. These are subjects taught in a class or in books, while social skills are taught by watching and listening. Even an idiot can learn these subjects if they try. Intelligence has to do with how quickly a person can learn and comprehend. It has nothing to do with interest or motivation.

You seem to be implying the same situation as the poster Evan, to whom I responded by stating that there is no reason to believe that the margin of error for the test is extremely high. Also, I have already mentioned that the test taker's dishonesty in no way invalidates the concept I am propounding. The true ESFP will exhibit traits considered "stupid." To expound on that, it should also be noted that reading the descriptions of the respective types is crucial to understanding one's own type, and is in actuality more important than the test results themselves. It would be very difficult for an ESFP to "pretend" to be an INTJ for extended periods of time, or an ESFJ an INTP, or any other type combination, with the probability of a mistaken identity increasing as one approaches one's own type.

Of course, response bias will always be an issue, but this can be addressed by improving testing techniques. Regardless, testing is hardly the issue we're discussing, as I am referring to concrete personality types and not preferences. If you claim to be a type online, I will be inclined to believe you, and will only question you if your behavior does not seem to match your proclaimed type. There is little point in deluding yourself, and personality tests are designed to type you for who you are, which makes lying a self-defeating endeavour.

to the blue- please explain, in stats speak, why you would NOT think that the margin of error on a self reporting survey over an ambiguous subject involving the test taker evaluating themselves honestly would NOT have a high margin of error? Do you really think that most people have the self knowlege and honesty to be RIGHT? Plus, the basic 4 letter test is very flawed and often gives people the wrong result... please say that you understand THAT?!!

and there's a difference between having a "smart person personality" and actually BEING smart :rolli: You'd probably assume that I am kind of dumb if you met me- I laugh a lot, I love bad jokes, dumb movies and low society... I read tabloids in the checkout line and comment on them to other shoppers and can be entertained for hours with a bottle of bubble solution. I'm also a verifiable genius who got accepted to Harvard and can complete the NY Times Sunday Crossword in less than 8 minutes... and there's no way in hell that I'm an INTJ

as my ISTJ says "there doesn't appear to be a connection in personality and intelligence- most geniuses are complete and total idiots... just look at you!"

to use the definition of personality that we usually threw around in psych and social psych, personality is the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. Unfortunatly, behavior doesn't necissarily reflect a person's cognitive abilities- an IxxJ will ACT more prudently than an ExxP, but that's a result of being cautious and semi-paranoid, not a result of actual intelligence. If we judged intelligence by a person's behavior Einstein would be a complete idiot!

In other words, you're making a mistake of judging intelligence by a person's behavioral characteristics AND you're making a mistake by beleiving in a flawed study and bad research

Hell, there's not even tight autocorrelation within the system. If one's MBTI type can't even reliably predict one's MBTI type, that's gotta say something with respect to how well it can be used as an indicator for other traits. So, go ahead and run your statistical analysis, come up with a model, and see how tight of a correlation you actually end up with.

Originally Posted by whatever

and there's a difference between having a "smart person personality" and actually BEING smart :rolli: You'd probably assume that I am kind of dumb if you met me- I laugh a lot, I love bad jokes, dumb movies and low society... I read tabloids in the checkout line and comment on them to other shoppers and can be entertained for hours with a bottle of bubble solution. I'm also a verifiable genius who got accepted to Harvard and can complete the NY Times Sunday Crossword in less than 8 minutes... and there's no way in hell that I'm an INTJ

This. This is the key. I'm sure that we all know people who "act stupid" but are not, in fact, stupid.

a person who shows all of their cards from the start is an idiot... I'd prefer to play dumb most of the time and shock people by being smarter than assumed than to play smart all of the time and be a disappointment

It's much more circumspect to pretend to be an idiot and let others underestimate you... then you have power over them and they don't even know it... the element of surprise is a wonderful thing!