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Hey, not only was I around all those years, I was in what was regarded as a tough high school, the Collinwood HS in Cleveland, and believe me, kids did not disrespect adults nearly as badly as the kids in the video. Why? The crack of the paddle on the ass. That's why. Sure, we bullied and were bullied kid-on-kid, but kids bullying an adult? You've got to be kidding! That never ever happened.

If you wanted to prove how tough you were to your cronies, you had to beat on someone who could put up a fight. Anyone who picked on helpless old ladies would have come across as ridiculous and really a pathetic sissy pants.

Statistics are meaningless in this case because they almost certainly reflect changes in reporting and in approaches to treating juvenile misbehavior. Also not reflected in the statistics is HOW the nature of reported crimes have probably changed. A common property crime in my childhood was TP'ing someone's front yard or putting a bag of dog poop in front of someone's door, setting it on fire, and ringing the doorbell. Today, the reported crimes could be far more serious assaults and batteries on helpless victims.

I bet you won't find much agreement for this post among the older members who've lived through 5 or 6 decades. It's not just the same.

Collinwood HS, when I was going there, was in a neighborhood of mostly Italians and Eastern European immigrants. There was tension between them, but the blacks were moving in and soon became the focus of prejudicial tension.

I'm having a hard time making sense of the graphic. Apparently in 1980 (to take an example), while there were 2500 property crimes total, 4000 of them were committed by males. That seems nonsensical, and yet there's a similar problem for every single year in the gaphic and for the violent crimes as well. Make sense of it for me, please.

It's numbers per 100,000 population. That is, for every 100K kids age 10-17 (male and female) there were 2500 prop crimes. Singling out just the fellas, the rate is 4000. (By extrapolation, the rate for the gals would be 1000.)

Going from over 4000 to under 2500 in one generation is huge. (And, no, that difference is not accounted for by differences in the types of crimes being reported, as you suggest above.)

Our perception that kids are worse now is partly due to exposure - like the youtube vid that started this discussion.

The truth is, kids - even good kids - will do crappy things sometimes. And the complaints about how horrible the young generation has become are nothing new:

"How do you explain, then, that the downward plunge in children's behavior pretty much coincides with your hippy-dippy "hit the kid, produce a criminal" theory of discipline?"

That is SO funny Unseen, considering that just yesterday, I watched a video featuring Hovind or some such theist thumper (they're basically interchangeable), asking how we could explain how all of the drug and alcohol culture just "happened" to coincide with the removal of god and prayer from the classroom.

The purpose of the video was to demonstrate ways in which theists use faulty reasoning, and postulated that just because two events appear to have occurred simultaneously, was no indication whatever that there was any form of cause and effect relationship, nor in fact, any reason to believe that there was any relationship at all.

I KNOW you're better than that --! I consider you a Master (de)bater - live up to it!

Um, OK - but your hypothesis isn't any more plausible than Hovind's. Your idea is based on anecdote, urban myth and personal perception that kids are worse than ever. Maybe they are. Maybe research proves that using a belt on a child is the best way to teach them to be polite and non-violent. Where's your data? I've given you results of studies on corporal punishment. I've given you juvenile crime data. Where's yours?

They were making fun of her because her son commited suicide a few years ago. An organization was created to rise money to send her on vacations. So far more than 200,000$ has been collected. These kids should be put into therapy, their actions reflect deep internal issues. Also what they did should be noted on their academic record, no scholarships should be granted to them, no matter how good their grades are they shouldn't receive scholarships to college just so they will always remember that there are consequences to what you say to hurt others.

Thank you Gabriela, for the followup - I, for one, did not know this, and I suspect most others didn't either. And you're absolutely right about the internal issues and the need for therapy - children don't get that way overnight.

Children Learn What They LiveBy Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn. If children live with hostility, they learn to fight. If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive. If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves. If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy. If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy. If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty. If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence. If children live with tolerance, they learn patience. If children live with praise, they learn appreciation. If children live with acceptance, they learn to love. If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves. If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal. If children live with sharing, they learn generosity. If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness. If children live with fairness, they learn justice. If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect. If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them. If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

So this has become a how-to-parent thread now. Mkay. I'll start by saying im totally for corporal punishment and even though it should be obvious not to the point of abuse. That being said I think it's more than just no spanking it's been no consequence at all. Im 30 and I've watched many of my friends raise kids over the last 10 years and what I see the most are empty threats and negotiating with children. Some punishment in one form or another needs to be enforced quickly and directly. Personally I'd rather of taking an ass whoopin than be grounded for a week or some luxury taken away. I think it has been mostly just lazy parenting or parents just too busy which is ever increasing. And oh yeah kids are assholes anyways. Small children can be quite merciless.