I have always found back workouts are really tough. Not only because they are so draining but training back is not just as about moving heavy weights. the pushing motion movements are very easy to pick up form wise but with back workouts I find it really difficult to contract my back hard when trying to use increasingly heavier weights. I also find it difficult to do barbell rows with good form and I'm still not sure how you do these correctly (yates style or completely bend over forward if you know what i mean)

I know evreyone finds legs hard but they are mainly just tough on the lungs for me when going for more volume and squats are fairly easy to get technique wise. I just hate working back, much prefer doing traps and deadlifts and sometimes barbell rows and leaving it at that, I dunno about you guys but back is nearly always the body part the majority of people in my gym don't train correctly (hoisting back the weight with momentum on cable rows and not having any contraction at all)

I would agree with you that most people have the hardest time training back properly.

In the past year or so I have become a big fan of training in a sets across fashion for all of my hypertrophy/isoloation/ and assistance work. By sets across I mean keeping the weight the same for all of your working sets. It really helps feel the muscle working and makes it easier to focus on form. What I will generally do is pyramid up my first excercise of the workout to one top set, and everything else afterwards will be done in a sets across fashion.

By keeping the weight the same for all of your working sets your body becomes accustomed to the load as well as drills proper form with that particular weight. Another benefit of this is that it forces you to pick a weight that won't be too heavy for what you are trying to accomplish, as well as prevent you from going to failure on the first few sets.

When setting up the set/rep scheme I set up range of no less than 3 reps and no more than 5. So for example 3x8-12 or 4x6-8.

So if I am doing 3x8-12, I will start with a weight that I can get at least 3x8 with. In the following workouts I will try to progress to the point of 3x12, once I get there I up the weight and restart the process.

As far as barbell rows, Yates row vs the more traditional. They are both good and both can be used, I would pick one and progress on it, then later switch to the other.

I agree, back is my hardest to get a good work out of also. I do try to go light enough where I'm mainly using my back and not biceps and try to squeeze and get as much contraction as possible. But yah never seems to be as good as the rest of my workouts.

Genetics will determine the hardest (and simplest) body part to develop. Different for each of us.

For me and others, the best single machine workout was with the original Nautilus Pullover machine. The one with the pull down bar overhead and in front, which was used immediately (curl grip) after the set of pullovers. Now even some physical rehab centers are equipped with this, including other Nautilus type devices. By far the best pump and sense of fatigue that the back was worked to it's fullest and beyond. After all the sets were done, we moved to doing BB shrugs for the 12 to 15 reps, or so. Couldn't make a Tri set out of that because you were squeezed and strapped into the pullover machine. For me, too hard to get in and out of it fast enough.

One of the reasons why most guy's don't always get a great back pump is because the arms/biceps take the majority of the workload with most pulling movements and can't work the extremely powerful back/lats any where near their full potential. The Nautilus machine had the much stronger leverage on the elbows moving the weight, rather than the biceps. Most fine that a curl grip, in any row/chin/pulldown motion, will have better affect on the lat's/back, which allows the elbows to interact more.

There are elbow straps that men use when doing sitting cable pulls, giving greater focus on the back it's self. Also applied to overhead pulldowns and chins, though not maybe not the best choice..very hard to get use to in any overhead work. Elbows tend to not stay in the webbing of the straps. Might be worth a try though. Can always do ab/knee raises.

Would suggest as first choice (if not lucky enough to have pullover type machine laying around) BB/DB pullovers, Prefer the bent arm version over the straight, but that is up to you. Also chins (curl grip) or a pulldown bar. Doing pullover SS's with chins, row, etc always seems to be productive for most.

Another good option is using the BB row, with a set of extra wide grip, pulling bar inline with the shoulders (as much as possible)and to the upper chest. Than a set of medium grip BB rows to the lower rib box/upper abs. the last BB row set is using a medium to close curl grip, pulling to the lower abs. This is one tri set, with out stopping between each set. Max would be 2 tri sets. Good Luck.

Genetics will determine the hardest (and simplest) body part to develop. Different for each of us.

For me and others, the best single machine workout was with the original Nautilus Pullover machine. The one with the pull down bar overhead and in front, which was used immediately (curl grip) after the set of pullovers. Now even some physical rehab centers are equipped with this, including other Nautilus type devices. By far the best pump and sense of fatigue that the back was worked to it's fullest and beyond. After all the sets were done, we moved to doing BB shrugs for the 12 to 15 reps, or so. Couldn't make a Tri set out of that because you were squeezed and strapped into the pullover machine. For me, too hard to get in and out of it fast enough.

One of the reasons why most guy's don't always get a great back pump is because the arms/biceps take the majority of the workload with most pulling movements and can't work the extremely powerful back/lats any where near their full potential. The Nautilus machine had the much stronger leverage on the elbows moving the weight, rather than the biceps. Most fine that a curl grip, in any row/chin/pulldown motion, will have better affect on the lat's/back, which allows the elbows to interact more.

There are elbow straps that men use when doing sitting cable pulls, giving greater focus on the back it's self. Also applied to overhead pulldowns and chins, though not maybe not the best choice..very hard to get use to in any overhead work. Elbows tend to not stay in the webbing of the straps. Might be worth a try though. Can always do ab/knee raises.

Would suggest as first choice (if not lucky enough to have pullover type machine laying around) BB/DB pullovers, Prefer the bent arm version over the straight, but that is up to you. Also chins (curl grip) or a pulldown bar. Doing pullover SS's with chins, row, etc always seems to be productive for most.

Another good option is using the BB row, with a set of extra wide grip, pulling bar inline with the shoulders (as much as possible)and to the upper chest. Than a set of medium grip BB rows to the lower rib box/upper abs. the last BB row set is using a medium to close curl grip, pulling to the lower abs. This is one tri set, with out stopping between each set. Max would be 2 tri sets. Good Luck.

I agree with the undergrip chins. I FEEL my lats and YES biceps. I really never got much from over grip pull ups. With regards to Barbell rows i find under and over grip good. I normally hold my hands just wider than my waist(of course my biceps work harder but i like the position ).

got any decent videos of the dumbell pullovers with the technique you recommend for working back jpm? my gym doesnt have that ideal pullover machine you spoke about. i also feel my back has alot more muscular force left to exert after workouts but my arms can't take it/.

I think the easiest is the neck. It never gets any direct exercise. Maybe a little indirect from training delts. Most guys when they train the neck are surprised how quickly it responds. Nothing looks worse than a muscular man with pencil neck.

Dom-milky: Feel free to do a search on your own. Lots of information I would think, about pullovers & such. Also consider the pullover & press as a elite lat/tricep/chest compound movement. Also hits the abs.

The closer the grip is, on chins, there tends to be more focus on the biceps. Art Jones recommend these as a prime bicep builder. If I remember correctly he had trainee's take 30 seconds (again, might have been less time) of the upward motion of the chin and 30 seconds of the lowering/negative motion. One set, because the biceps were totally fried after all that. That is one minute of non-stop stress on the biceps. Might suggest a 10 second up & down rep, as a started for anyone wishing to try this. Always the possibility of getting a painful biceps cramp, if not allowing a good breaking in period.

A version of the BB curl, which have worked for many is a close grip (6"-8") but have the elbows pressed in hard against the ab wall. Or sit at the end of a bench, close grip with the elbows braced against the inner legs and curl that way. Seen one guy go in a full squat position and curl that way (elbows braced against the inner thighs as before). BB'ers are a very inventive bunch and in a way pioneers in weight training. Good Luck.

jpm for hypertrophy and strength what would you consider the ideal back workout? At the moment im doing stronglifts but i do push, pull and lower body over the course of the week. At the moment for back I do:

low row

lat pulldown

shrugs + cleans

the programme has me alternating 2 x a week deadlifting and 2 x a week barbell row so i dont do them.

jpm for hypertrophy and strength what would you consider the ideal back workout? At the moment im doing stronglifts but i do push, pull and lower body over the course of the week. At the moment for back I do:

low row

lat pulldown

shrugs + cleans

the programme has me alternating 2 x a week deadlifting and 2 x a week barbell row so i dont do them.

Deadlift or rack pull, ramp up to top set of 6-8 reps, drop down and do a set of 10-12 repsPull-ups or lat pulldown, not ultra wide just outside shoulder width, 4x8-10 repsSome sort of row involving full scapulae retraction, 4x10-12 repsIsolation exercise of your choice - shrugs, face-pulls, rear delt flies, pullovers etc 4x12-15 reps

Dom-Milky: Actually your present program is not bad. Can see the need for the DL if into the strongman thing, but for muscle building it may not be the best movement for most BB'ers.

If you mean pure BB'ing (strength will usually follow..gaining power is another matter) than might consider a few advance protocols.

1) SS straight arm pullovers with bent arm pullovers. BB and/or DB'S. This is mocking a pullover type machine and will obtain a good pump. But not a replacement, of course, for a well designed pullover type machine, though fairly close. Two cycles (SS's) of 10 to 12 reps. If new to pullovers, suggest going light at first. Working to weigh increases each workout. keep the grip somewhat close in any pullover exercise. Too wide a grip might cause injury to the shoulder girdle for some. Rest 90 seconds between SS cycles. 60 seconds when you are ready for it

2) Lat pulldown ..Chins would not apply here for most men. The ability to do 10 or more chins after the first SS escapes the majority of trainees. Use a closer, inside the shoulder width..curl grip. Two sets of 10 to 12 reps. 60 seconds between sets.

3) Cleans from a Power Rack, lifting boxes, "A" frame, etc. Have the bar a couple inches above knee height. This is a power type clean used with a BB'ing style workout. Going to affect the upper back & traps very strongly. Two sets of 10-12 reps. 60-90 seconds, depending on ability to recover from first set. To work on stamina (endurance & strength) some men preform 20 reps or more with this outstanding compound exercise.

The super duper version of the above exercises included in 1 & 2 is to preform them Tri set style. After the SS Pullovers (both) you would go immediately to the curl grip pulldown's. All count as one cycle. Two cycles max.

The super duper version of the cleans is to do a set of BB shrug and than the cleans. This is the pre-exhaustion style. Though pre-exhaustion and SS can be inner changeable at times.

Human nature being what it is, some will try 3 (or more) sets, rather than 2 set. Fine, if that works for you. Though maybe not the best of ideas. Just have to see what happens for yourself. Good Luck..