Yes, Verizon has phone subsidies and T-mobile doesn't...but T-mobile is also massively cheaper (for a particular plan) according to the linked article.

I had thought I'd go with T-Mobile (switching from Sprint), but I didn't find it's any cheaper if you have more than one phone. I'm paying about $160 for two Android smartphones and one flip-phone. According to the rep I spoke with, T-Mobile's non-subsidized plan is slightly north of $50 per phone, so it doesn't really save me anything, AND I lose both the subsidy and the true unlimited data.

All this "T-Mobile is cheaper" talk seems to only refer to a plan for a single phone (as alluded to by rainsford above). Is that accurate or am I missing something?

Update: My last bill was $170.42, including all of the BS charges.

My monthly TMob bill is $100.06 for two phones (including all charges/fees). I have the Nexus 4, my wife has a dumb phone (actually, she uses my old Galaxy S2 with no data plan, same thing). It's 1000 minutes, unlimited text, and I have unlimited data (TMobile has "true unlimited" data again). Adding another line to the family plan is $10/month and "unlimited" data is $20, so for your three phones with two data plans, it would be ~$130 (based on 1k minutes, and add a couple dollars for fees/taxes/whatever).(edit) As for subsidized pricing, say you get two Nexus 4s (16GB), that's $700, spread that cost out over 24 months and you add another ~$30/month, so it comes out to about the same (minus the contractual agreement). Though, I'm post paid, so I likely had a contract at some point.

I don't know why anybody would be willing to pay $70+ a month when much cheaper prepaid alternative exist.

Two reasons, for me:1) The price difference is less if you're paying for multiple lines (I've got 5 lines, 4 with data, ends up being about $55 each ($40 + $60/4), for the smartphone lines)2) I get little to no reception on other carriers (where I live/work/commute)

It's worth noting that yes, Verizon's margins are down to 41.4% due to a massive outlay of subsidies this quarter, but Verizon also expect margins to rise to 50% over the next year, as they collect fees from all of the new customers they signed up this quarter.

Are there any MVNO's that rely on Verizon's network? Just wondering as the V network is what I care about so much because Sprint's and ATT's network aren't at the same level of reliability for calling (in the areas of interest to me).

Just one, and their smartphone selection is abysmal. If you only care about voice coverage VZW roaming is available on at least some Sprint MVNO's; but AFAIK none have any roaming data access yet.

I'm getting ready to switch to Pageplus when my Verizon contract ends next month, lemme fill in some important details with this MVNO.

They run off the Verizon network, but you can bring any Verizon dumb/3G phone over to their network and it will work without any changes, just give PP the phone's ESN number and they'll connect you.

LTE devices DO NOT work out of the box like this however, they have to be flashed before they'll work on PP, even though they don't offer 4G service.

Als, as part of their agreement with Verizon, PP is not officially allowed to connect iPhones to the service, and if you tell them it is, they will refuse to do so. This is strictly a "don't ask, don't tell" thing though; if you're connecting an iPhone, just say it isn't when speaking to the customer service rep, and they'll do it.

Some light Google-Fu will verify all of this info, and I'm looking forward to saving money and being able to use my current Verizon iPhone 4 on a prepaid plan, saving me even more. You can also just buy a Verizon 4S off eBay for ~300 (16GB) and you're golden as well. The 5 WILL NOT WORK however, as it is an LTE device. The Verizon 4, 4S and any Verizon 3G Android device (or flashed LTE Android phone) will work on Pageplus.

The genius of Apple was surely in realizing that they could take the horribly stupid phone subsidy system in America and use it to take billions of dollars for the carriers who created it.

Good point. But what of the widely reported (and not denied - AFAIK) tactic of Verizon store sales staff steering/bullying potential iPhone buyers over to competing platforms? Surely, a double-edged sword for Apple.

I don't know why anybody would be willing to pay $70+ a month when much cheaper prepaid alternative exist.

I won't speak for anyone but myself but I split a shared plan with my gf for about $75/month each. I haven't found a prepaid option that offers (true) unlimited data as well as a lower total cost when combined with the unsubsidized handset price.

I have no problem spending $600 on a high end smart phone that I will use for ~2 years but if the monthly plans/rates are not good enough, then there isn't a lot of advantage to me. The $800 subsidy on two smartphones works out to just over $33/month over a normal 2-year contract so my $150/month bill is closer to $115 when ignoring the subsidy. I can probably find several prepaid options that cost under that $58/month per phone but they aren't all that much less than that. Add in the throttling, caps, and other restrictions and at least for now, it's not really worth it for us each to save maybe $5 per month.

Like I said...my experience only. For a different user it might be a much bigger difference but that's why "anybody" might be willing to pay $75/month when prepaid options exist.

This.

I've looked around, and haven't been able to find any pre-paid plan that saves me more than 10 bucks a month or so. For that $10/month, I have to give up something -- either good customer service, 4G speeds, device selection, or coverage. Hardly seems worth it.

I currently split a verizon plan 4 ways (me, my wife, my brother and his wife), so our cost per month is about $65 each. I don't know why more people don't do it that way. The more lines you have on a plan, the lower the cost for each line. This continues to be the the case with the new share everything plans, assuming you go with 2GB per line, which works out fine for all of us.

Virgin Mobile is $35 for 300 minutes plus unlimited text and 2.5GB of unthrottled data. You can buy an iPhone for it too.

I don't know why anybody would be willing to pay $70+ a month when much cheaper prepaid alternative exist.

But does it exist outside the city as you travel or visit smaller towns. This is their strength, coverage and no roaming (pre pays have various plans).

Sure, 95% of our phone use is within the city but the peace of mind for when we travel is a cost.

Virgin uses Sprint's network. The coverage isn't perfect but my roommate had AT&T and after switching he gets better coverage in Los Angeles. I have driven all over CA and have had decent coverage. Its not Verizon but its definitely good enough.

Its funny how PR works these days. its no longer constrained by producing facts.

What is the standard cost to acquire a customer? Carriers are promoting the cheapy plastic, Korean brands, arriving by the cargo ship container full because they make a few dollars more per phone sale.

Carriers are much like the fossil fuel industry, profit at all cost.

Both are destroying the American economy with arbitrary games of scarcity, instead of providing the platform on which others can build businesses.

One can only hope IP phones are here enmass by the end of this year, and that every WiFi hotspot, tower, location has IP phone capability. No doubt, Carriers are working back room deals with Congress to pass 'a law' that assured Carriers are the only ones playing in the IP Phone market.

The genius of Apple was surely in realizing that they could take the horribly stupid phone subsidy system in America and use it to take billions of dollars for the carriers who created it.

Handset makers have been taking advantage of this arrangement since the analog days. Apple is just the latest star player in a game whose rules everybody understands.

Apple's real innovation here was in convincing a carrier to break with and give up the traditional carrier business model, which is to control and brand the handset. At the time it was unthinkable to do what Apple did, walk up to a carrier and say "You can have this awesome phone on one condition: You cannot tell us what to put on it." That and convincing the carrier to change their network to accommodate things like Visual Voicemail were game-changers, as much as the hardware itself was.

The genius of Apple was surely in realizing that they could take the horribly stupid phone subsidy system in America and use it to take billions of dollars for the carriers who created it.

Handset makers have been taking advantage of this arrangement since the analog days. Apple is just the latest star player in a game whose rules everybody understands.

Apple's real innovation here was in convincing a carrier to break with and give up the traditional carrier business model, which is to control and brand the handset. At the time it was unthinkable to do what Apple did, walk up to a carrier and say "You can have this awesome phone on one condition: You cannot tell us what to put on it." That and convincing the carrier to change their network to accommodate things like Visual Voicemail were game-changers, as much as the hardware itself was.

The problem is that Android rolls back those gains for everyone.

With Android the carriers are again dictating control over the handset regardless of brand.

The sooner the carriers are turned into dumb pipes the better off we'll all be.

... But what of the widely reported (and not denied - AFAIK) tactic of Verizon store sales staff steering/bullying potential iPhone buyers over to competing platforms? Surely, a double-edged sword for Apple.

I had heard about this (and observed it firsthand) with respect to AT&T long before anyone mentioned Verizon doing the same -- but that said, if you take a quick look at the home pages for each of the big four, you will find that the prime ad space on every site is dedicated to Android phones first. (URLs for your convenience: Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile) So we're not talking about an isolated incident, by any means.

So the real question is, does Android garner the "most-favored-handset" status because Android phones (with their lower subsidies) are more profitable for the carriers? Certainly seems that way at first glance... but I would suggest that this is only one part of the equation; another (at least) equally important factor is the ancillary non-monetary concessions that Android producers willingly make to the carriers.

So my take-away from this is very simple: If Verizon's earnings for the past quarter are actually below their own estimates, then perhaps all that really means is that the iPhone is still selling far too well, in spite of the best efforts of carriers to counter that trend.

It would be nice to know why analysts think phone subsidies are a drain on profits, because it appears like kind of a goofy argument at first glance. Yes, Verizon has phone subsidies and T-mobile doesn't...but T-mobile is also massively cheaper (for a particular plan) according to the linked article. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it sort of sounds like the analysts are thinking "Verizon could increase profits if they got rid of subsidies and kept their plan prices exactly the same"...which doesn't sound like it will work to me.

Personally I'd be surprised if phone subsidies weren't cost effective for the carriers. It seems like people take a lot more notice of immediate costs than costs over time. So it seems like a carrier could make more money with cheaper phones but more expensive plans than the other way around.

It's very simple. Android and iOS phones at Verizon have exactly the same plans yet Verizon pays much higher subsidies to Apple than to any other smart phone manufacturer. So, obviously it's much more profitable for them to sell any other phones over iPhone.

It's very simple. Android and iOS phones at Verizon have exactly the same plans yet Verizon pays much higher subsidies to Apple than to any other smart phone manufacturer. So, obviously it's much more profitable for them to sell any other phones over iPhone.

Even if every word that you said was exactly true, and my suggestion that other factors also come into play is entirely erroneous... it seems equally obvious that selling iPhones under Apple's conditions is still more profitable then not selling them at all, even if each iPhone sold does not garner quite the same lucrative margins as each Android sold.

So really, we're not talking about whether or not a given Verizon VP is going to be able to pay the grocery bill... more like, we're talking about whether or not he can afford to splurge on that new Jaguar, or if he has to settle for (ahem) a lowly Infiniti.

The feds need to look into the collusion between carriers and phone manufacturers. The manufacturers are allowed to keep the price of phones astronomically high because carriers agree to buy phones in bulk for only twice of what it actually costs to manufacture. Then carriers offer the same phones on subsidy if you sign up for a lengthy contract, making you chose between paying $400+ extra up front for the phone or $1200 over the length of your contract. Subsidies are the largest "legalized" collusion racket that the government won't to shit to stop!

The feds need to look into the collusion between carriers and phone manufacturers. The manufacturers are allowed to keep the price of phones astronomically high because carriers agree to buy phones in bulk for only twice of what it actually costs to manufacture. Then carriers offer the same phones on subsidy if you sign up for a lengthy contract, making you chose between paying $400+ extra up front for the phone or $1200 over the length of your contract. Subsidies are the largest "legalized" collusion racket that the government won't to shit to stop!

That's not the definition of collusion. You assume there is fraud when there is none.

The fact that Apple charges and earns more than Samsung, Nokia, RIM, HTC, and Motorola combined kind of disproves your point.

What is gonna harm those big companies as At&t and Verizon is this MVNO company that is paying us the customers instead of charging for the cellphone services. It is Solavei, where you are gonna have unlimited voice, text and data in a 4G nationwide network with no contract for $49 or less. That "less"means you can have unlimited everything where 4gigs running at 4G are included and the possibility to bring you monthlypayment to $0 forever or even get paid for the company. Well, if you have an iPhone 5, you needto wait until March went the nano sim is gonna be available. Any one with GSM phones includingiPhones up to 4S can do it now. The big guys At&t and Verizon have to think in something soon. Check it out: www(.)myphonepaysback(.)com

Are there any MVNO's that rely on Verizon's network? Just wondering as the V network is what I care about so much because Sprint's and ATT's network aren't at the same level of reliability for calling (in the areas of interest to me).

Just one, and their smartphone selection is abysmal. If you only care about voice coverage VZW roaming is available on at least some Sprint MVNO's; but AFAIK none have any roaming data access yet.

I'm getting ready to switch to Pageplus when my Verizon contract ends next month, lemme fill in some important details with this MVNO.

They run off the Verizon network, but you can bring any Verizon dumb/3G phone over to their network and it will work without any changes, just give PP the phone's ESN number and they'll connect you.

LTE devices DO NOT work out of the box like this however, they have to be flashed before they'll work on PP, even though they don't offer 4G service.

Als, as part of their agreement with Verizon, PP is not officially allowed to connect iPhones to the service, and if you tell them it is, they will refuse to do so. This is strictly a "don't ask, don't tell" thing though; if you're connecting an iPhone, just say it isn't when speaking to the customer service rep, and they'll do it.

Some light Google-Fu will verify all of this info, and I'm looking forward to saving money and being able to use my current Verizon iPhone 4 on a prepaid plan, saving me even more. You can also just buy a Verizon 4S off eBay for ~300 (16GB) and you're golden as well. The 5 WILL NOT WORK however, as it is an LTE device. The Verizon 4, 4S and any Verizon 3G Android device (or flashed LTE Android phone) will work on Pageplus.

OMG, STOP Y3k-Bug... Before you move to Pageplus you have to know about Solavei. I see you are with a CDMA phone but moving to Solavei you will buy any phone you want. Let me explain, in Solavei you are gonna have unlimited voice, text and data in a 4G nationwide network with no contract for $49 or less. That "less"means you can have unlimited everything where 4gigs running at 4G are included (not 2 or 1, 4 gigs) and the possibility to bring your monthly payment to $0 forever or even get paid for the company and then buy any phone you want. Well, if you have an iPhone 5, you need to wait until March went the nano sim are gonna be available. For now phone including iPhones up to 4S can do it, check it out: www.myphonepaysback.com