Filipino masters still do dueling every now and then. Protective gear is more common these days, but it wasn't always so. Although the whole "deathmatch" thing has been blown far out of proportion, any time you are dueling with sticks, knives, or swords, someone could be killed, and some occasionally were.

Originally posted by Ryno
Filipino masters still do dueling every now and then...Ditto for European sword duelists a few hundred years ago.

Actually, there were still duels in Europe up until the early part of the twentieth century.

Originally posted by DdlR
...most martial arts are equally redundant compared to any good modern handgun system

This is another myth really. No weapon can be of any use to you if it's not in your hand when you need it. If you're carrying a holstered handgun, you may very well need to fight for a chance to get it out. If you live in England or Australia, it's illegal to carry any object for self defence.

This is another myth really. No weapon can be of any use to you if it's not in your hand when you need it. If you're carrying a holstered handgun, you may very well need to fight for a chance to get it out. If you live in England or Australia, it's illegal to carry any object for self defence.

Modern combat handgunning takes that into account, and includes a good range of close-combat techniques, still sensibly predicated on the idea that shooting someone is a very efficient means of bridging the gap; but my point was that combat effectiveness per se is only one criterion for measuring the "value" of a martial art, and that there are others that are equally legitimate. It depends on what the individual wants to get out of the system they're investing their time into.

I don't know anyone who pursues the study of classical kenjutsu, for example, with the goal of using it in a streetfight or MMA contest. The value of TMA can be measured by their preservation of cultural heritage and as "living antiques", and I suggest that this criterion is just as legitimate as how "d3adly" a martial art is on the street or in competition; the MA world is big enough for both approaches and there's not a lot of point in judging one by the standards of the other.

If combat effectiveness is literally the only criteria for judging the "value" of a martial art, then you're absolutely right; most TMA are redundant and may as well be put to sleep. On the other hand, by that logic most martial arts are equally redundant compared to any good modern handgun system, which is one reason why combat handgunners tend to look down on martial arts training in general.

Combat effectiveness IS the only critiea to judge a MA. Its already been addressed that even a carrying a handgun isn't a done deal. I've been through combat handgun classes and even took a Personel Protection seminar. I performed better at drawing my weapong and using it thanks to previous MA training than does who had none.

My point was that legitimate TMA represent microcosms of certain cultures and historical periods and that cultural preservation is valuable for its own sake. Let's say that you came across a mint-condition Edison phonograph in a yard sale. Knowing that an IPod is much more effective at producing music, would you just throw it away, or "modernize" it by adding microcircuits and painting it red? That would destroy its actual value as an antique.

You keep the phonograph for its historic value but you don't pass it off as equal to something that gets the job done better. Thats what many misguided TMA do.

Combat effectiveness IS the only critiea to judge a MA. Its already been addressed that even a carrying a handgun isn't a done deal. I've been through combat handgun classes and even took a Personel Protection seminar. I performed better at drawing my weapong and using it thanks to previous MA training than does who had none.

Agreed ... and noob handgunners (Is that even a word?) should just STFU. Combat shooting skills are highly perishable and even under the best conditions it is damned difficult to put round on target when that target is moving and shooting back.

Until a terminal civie puke cleans the **** & piss from their drawers from having "been there, done that" they are nothing but a bunch of doofy target shooters paying $ to put holes in paper ... same as in a Carnival ... but without the cotton candy.

Respectfully, I disagree. Every martial artist will have their own criteria; a TMA stylist could just as legitimately mock MMA because most MMA do not prioritize the customs of bowing, dojo protocol, etc. In either case, it's a matter of trying to establish a hierarchy based on personal preferences, which is a waste of time - apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA

You keep the phonograph for its historic value but you don't pass it off as equal to something that gets the job done better. Thats what many misguided TMA do.

Not equal, above or below, just different. The antique (phonograph or martial art) is valuable for a different set of reasons, but that doesn't mean that it's empirically "less valuable" unless you're trying to force it to be something that it isn't.

It may well be that practitioners of some TMA make exaggerated or unproven claims about combat effectiveness, in which case, address those claims; but it does not follow that "TMA are Bullshido", nor that bowing, traditional weaponry, etc. are necessarily signs of Bullshido, which seemed to be what the original poster was saying.