Trouble logging in?We were forced to invalidate all account passwords. You will have to reset your password to login. If you have trouble resetting your password, please send us a message with as much helpful information as possible, such as your username and any email addresses you may have used to register. Whatever you do, please do not create a new account. That is not the right solution, and it is against our forum rules to own multiple accounts.

Holy run-on Batman!
I will direct you to the Milgram Experiment
In summary: even good people will follow orders and do bad things.

Has it been shown that any of the Vagan soldiers are having any sort of moral conflict killing civilians? Also how is this experiment an explanation for people like Zeheart who is absolutely willing and loyal to Ezelcant's order?

You've completely fail to answer the original question.

Quote:

Was Fram portrayed as a psychopath along the lines of Desil or Minks who just wants to kill people and hates the Earthers? Because that's what you're suggesting...

I see, so this is why you blame Flit because he yells like a psychopath like Desil or Minks. This is so superficial, as you do not have to appear psychopathic showing ugly twisted faces to actually be a psychopathic killer. Again look at someone like Zeheart although portrayed as a caring commander willingly and loyally leading the first invasion on civilian targets - that is as evil as a crazy psychopath, one just watches in cold blood as his sub-ordinates rains death rays from the battleship on the civilians below while the other might get a short rush from the killing they do with their own hands. Which is exactly why I said you bough the pretty words but not judging them by their action, thus not being objective.

Someone like Fram is in the same boat as Zeheart - completely loyal to the cause and unquestioning.

Also again has the Vagan military shown anything otherwise that they are actually in conflict about killing civilians? We have never been show this on screen at all! Not a single Vagan soldier had been shown to be suffering from such moral conflict of carrying out Ezelcant's orders. NOT ONE. All we have seen in the Vagan military is them killing civilians EVERY SINGLE GENERATION for the past 60 years of the war!

Quote:

I'm not saying Fram is right, because obviously the only person in hte right is Kio, everyone else is wrong. But to fault Fram for not taking Kio's offer is just stupid. 99% of people would have the same reaction as Fram. faulting her for that is just pulling at straws.

The point flies over your head. You are claiming the Vagans, sans Ezelcant, deep inside wants peaceful co-existence and that it is the Feds who aren't doing enough to bring peace, Fram's rejection of Kio's offer shows this is completely false because in her speech of saying her true feelings, she has just shown that she wants revenge for the fallen Vagan's just as much as Flit does. Thus rendering your "Vagan's probably seeking peaceful co-existence" point completely moot.

He hasn't what? How many Vagan did he kill in Gen 1? Because I can tell you it wasn't 0, and not at any single point did Flit view the Vagan as anything other than monsters.

You have a really weird definition of what killing in cold blood means.

Flit really hasn't killed in cold blood, at all, zero, in this entire series at this moment in time. Killing in cold blood means murdering someone who is defenceless or harmless - killing enemy combatants in an active warzone firing death rays at either you, your fellow soldiers, or civilians with the intention of causing harm or to kill cannot for even a split second be consider killing in cold blood.

However the Vagan military HAVE killed many civilians in cold blood - many freaking times, just as Flit says "they take life freely" - and not just combatant life but civilian life. So yeah, the Vagans military ARE monsters by its very literal dictionary definition. While you can say Flit applying this view to the entire Vagan is extreme, applying the label of monsters due to the actions of the Vagan military is hardly problematic, in fact it is very fitting.

He hasn't what? How many Vagan did he kill in Gen 1? Because I can tell you it wasn't 0, and not at any single point did Flit view the Vagan as anything other than monsters.

As said Cold Blood. Or you don't know what that phrase means?

Quote:

So... you're saying since the Vagan started it, the only way to stop it is for the Vagan to surrender? That's so naive I don't even know where to start, but I suggest you do a bit of research into World War I. Or II, since you're so fond of bringing up the Nationalsozialistische.

That's how a Total War end. I'm not talking about small wars but big wars where everybody is involved.

When it became obvious they couldn't Germans in WWII started to have the idea that surrender to the West is the better option than the Russians.

When Japan wouldn't get their land battle and two H-bombs blew two cities they knew they had to surrender.

Quote:

Do you just take selectively from my posts to suit your opinion? I NEVER said the Vagan weren't using them. Go look at what you quoted; I put a very specific, very meaningful qualifier in it.

Your words. You said they weren't using them indiscriminately.

Are you new in debating? Of course someone would cross examine and rebut what you said.

Quote:

No... the Federation just didn't have the tech to match it, which is another reason your MAD theory doesn't pan out here. The Vagan have enough Colony Destroyers and enough of a massive advantage to have ended the Federation before Flit even started work on the AGE-1. Yet they didn't. Now the Federation has the tech to match and... what's that? Yeah, they're not bloody using it.

The Federation always had the option to open the Lost Tech. Flit has been trying to convince them to use the AGE System but they wouldn't.

Einus was surprised by Diva loaded with Plasma Divers as those are as of last she read against regulations.

The Federation has always followed the Silver Chalice Treaty and they are finally ripping it to shreds by using these weapons en massed.

Are you seriously using Fram's rejection of Kio's offer as a way to demonize her and the rest of the Vagans?What's she gonna say to that? "Ok kid, let's talk while your grandpa murders all my comrades"? You have to look at the context in which the offer is made, and by who. Kio doesn't have he power to offer terms to the enemy, and he's fighting for the federation, he's not even asking people to go pirate with him his asking people to just put down their arms and be executed (shanalua, girard)... of course people are going to reject that crap.

__________________

I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

I see, so this is why you blame Flit because he yells like a psychopath like Desil or Minks. This is so superficial, as you do not have to appear psychopathic showing ugly twisted faces to actually be a psychopathic killer. Again look at someone like Zeheart although portrayed as a caring commander willingly and loyally leading the first invasion on civilian targets - that is as evil as a crazy psychopath, one just watches in cold blood as his sub-ordinates rains death rays from the battleship on the civilians below while the other might get a short rush from the killing they do with their own hands. Which is exactly why I said you bough the pretty words but not judging them by their action, thus not being objective.

Mostly true, but you can't really apply the psychopath title here. Since by very definitition, a psychopath wouldn't really be capable of caring about his subordinates.

Are you seriously using Fram's rejection of Kio's offer as a way to demonize her and the rest of the Vagans?What's she gonna say to that? "Ok kid, let's talk while your grandpa murders all my comrades"? You have to look at the context in which the offer is made, and by who. Kio doesn't have he power to offer terms to the enemy, and he's fighting for the federation, he's not even asking people to go pirate with him his asking people to just put down their arms and be executed (shanalua, girard)... of course people are going to reject that crap.

It is not demonizing her when she is telling her own feelings (you know just like how you hold Flit to his words) that if she surrenders it would be shaming her fallen comrades, and then proceeds to fight, so she talked the talk and walked the walk. Also if people like Girad (sic) can defect why not Fram? Even when Kio has no absolute power there is nothing stopping Fram from surrendering at that point ("you are right kid, we should talk, I surrender" is a perfectly acceptable choice). Also why are you not holding the same standard for Flit, if you just swap a few words of your sentence it could just be "Ok Vagans lets talk while your MS are murdering civilians."? or how is him yelling at Kio "Don't talk with Girad because just in one episode she took down about 10 of our soldiers!", which is different from Fram's situation how? See how much double standard you have with Flit? You cut Flit no slack with the tiniest of his actions and words and claims him to be a genocidal maniac for wanting to kill Girad but when the other characters are exactly the same and you give them all the wiggle room the size of a whale. And you claim you are being objective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

Mostly true, but you can't really apply the psychopath title here. Since by very definitition, a psychopath wouldn't really be capable of caring about his subordinates.

Bold is my emphasis - Zeheart showed plenty of coldheartedness and lacking empathy when he gave the go ahead and watches his subordinates murder innocent civilians and actually giving approval, at that moment in time I think he fully deserves the title of a psychopath, more so than the Flit-haters would like to admit that Flit is nothing compared to these guys who talks pretty but has innocent blood on their hands, whereas Flit is actually clean.

It is not demonizing her when she is telling her own feelings (you know just like how you hold Flit to his words) that if she surrenders it would be shaming her fallen comrades, and then proceeds to fight, so she talked the talk and walked the walk. Also if people like Girad (sic) can defect why not Fram? Even when Kio has no absolute power there is nothing stopping Fram from surrendering at that point ("you are right kid, we should talk, I surrender" is a perfectly acceptable choice). Also why are you not holding the same standard for Flit, if you just swap a few words of your sentence it could just be "Ok Vagans lets talk while your MS are murdering civilians."? or how is him yelling at Kio "Don't talk with Girad because just in one episode she took down about 10 of our soldiers!", which is different from Fram's situation how? See how much double standard you have with Flit? You cut Flit no slack with the tiniest of his actions and words and claims him to be a genocidal maniac for wanting to kill Girad but when the other characters are exactly the same and you give them all the wiggle room the size of a whale. And you claim you are being objective.

Bold is my emphasis - Zeheart showed plenty of coldheartedness and lacking empathy when he gave the go ahead and watches his subordinates murder innocent civilians and actually giving approval, at that moment in time I think he fully deserves the title of a psychopath, more so than the Flit-haters would like to admit that Flit is nothing compared to these guys who talks pretty but has innocent blood on their hands, whereas Flit is actually clean.

LOL, you are bashing Fram because she didn't defect on Kio's word? Are you fricking serious?

The only character going around ranting he's going to exterminate an entire race is Flit. If it were Zeheart or Fram I'd condemn their attitude too, but so far they haven't said anything.

Stop trying to sugarcoat Flit's attitude. Ever since Gen 2 he's been off the deep end. In that colony he ordered an attack on the Vagan factory and when Asemu quesitoned his order he said straight up he didn't give a shit about the civilians because they were traitors who were collaborating with the Vagan, nvm the fact that people didn't even know there Vagans in the factory...

__________________

I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

The truth is..........yup. Anime>Olympic for me. And Im enjoying my life because of it

Also is it me or the 3 MC for AGE has a little bit similar attitude towards WAR as the 3 MC of SEED/DESTINY?
-Kio is now Kira, since NO-kill policy.
-Flit is Shinn. Actually has been Shinn from beginning since his views on WAR is due to his hatred/vengeance.
-Asemu is Athrun, because..........I just felt like saying he's like Athrun since the other 2 resembles other MC of SEED series. So no actual point.......

Stop trying to sugarcoat Flit's attitude. Ever since Gen 2 he's been off the deep end. In that colony he ordered an attack on the Vagan factory and when Asemu quesitoned his order he said straight up he didn't give a shit about the civilians because they were traitors who were collaborating with the Vagan, nvm the fact that people didn't even know there Vagans in the factory...

The same can be said about you. Stop trying to sugarcoat the Vagans, especially now that we know that you admitted to making things up to back up your arguments.

And we've gone over this. Aside from the fact that a special forces team would've suffice Flit was in the right. He argued back that a moment's hesitation would lead to the worse possible outcome and that not taking care of the enemy quickly would result in heavy damage. Guess what? That's what happened. Asemu ran off which and when he finally came back it took him very little time to neutralize the Vagan suits to begin with.

The sooner you go in and take down the factory, the sooner you prevent the Vagans from digging in too deep in which case heavy collateral damage would be expected. There is no 100% ensuring that you can avoid it but you can at least minimize it as much as possible.

The damage to the colony was due to Asemu's hesitation to go in quickly and neutralize the Vagans before they could make a move.

That's how special forces operate in such delicate circumstances. The longer they allow the enemy to recover and gear up the harder the mission would be and the chances of civilians getting hurt is higher.

Bold is my emphasis - Zeheart showed plenty of coldheartedness and lacking empathy when he gave the go ahead and watches his subordinates murder innocent civilians and actually giving approval, at that moment in time I think he fully deserves the title of a psychopath, more so than the Flit-haters would like to admit that Flit is nothing compared to these guys who talks pretty but has innocent blood on their hands, whereas Flit is actually clean.

Again, mostly true, but if Zeheart were ACTUALLY a psychopath, he wouldn't be able to care about his subordinates or his people, or Asem. Due to the exact same phrases you bolded.

LOL, you are bashing Fram because she didn't defect on Kio's word? Are you fricking serious?

Not bashing her, just using your exact reasoning to show that she has as much intention to kill the enemies like Flit does. I'm merely trying to get you to not use double standards.

Also I like how again you give Fram the slack, but when the Feds offered the Vagan's an olive branch it's not the Vagan's fault but the Feds for not trying hard enough.

Quote:

The only character going around ranting he's going to exterminate an entire race is Flit. If it were Zeheart or Fram I'd condemn their attitude too, but so far they haven't said anything.

LOL you are making yourself look sillier every moment.

FACT: Flit hasn't killed anyone in cold blood despite his cries of extermination
FACT: Vagans led many attacks on innocent civilians for the PAST 60 YEARS. Zeheart himself led the Earth invasion on civilians in Gen 3

Please stop your double standards, again Flit is just saying stuff about killing whereas the Vagans has actually DONE them many times. But we never see you condemn the Vagans, not once, but when Flit opens his mouth he is instantly the psychopathic genocidal manic.

Quote:

Stop trying to sugarcoat Flit's attitude. Ever since Gen 2 he's been off the deep end. In that colony he ordered an attack on the Vagan factory and when Asemu quesitoned his order he said straight up he didn't give a shit about the civilians because they were traitors who were collaborating with the Vagan, nvm the fact that people didn't even know there Vagans in the factory...

Already answered - his orders was the right call if Asemu had followed his orders. Also using your Fram-logic of "I must stop the Gundam because they are killing my comrades" then Flit is applying the exact same reasoning here of "I must stop the Vagans manufacture killing machines or more people will die". See how you keep using double standards when judging Flit? And if anyone is sugarcoating it is YOU, all I have done is shown that you are not applying the same standards when you judge Flit with the other characters - again you judge Flit on mere words but let the Vagan's off with their actions. So how about actually answering the Vagan's same battle tactic of killing innocent civilians? You keep dodging that point because frankly there is no way you can justify the Vagan's action and you know it. Yet you keep saying the majority of the Vagan's are peaceful when we been shown otherwise many times? Please, THAT is sugarcoating.

Flit doesn't just want to kill the enemy, he wants to exterminate all vagans including the women and children who have not blown up colonies or killed civilians. They've done him no wrong yet he wants to kill them all based onwhat happened in war? That's irrational, and you trying to justify him makes you look silly. Zeheart and Fram have never said they wanted to exterminate the earthnoids. I dare you to find an episode where either of them say anything of the sort.

__________________

I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

Flit doesn't just want to kill the enemy, he wants to exterminate all vagans including the women and children who have not blown up colonies or killed civilians. They've done him no wrong yet he wants to kill them all based onwhat happened in war? That's irrational, and you trying to justify him makes you look silly. Zeheart and Fram have never said they wanted to exterminate the earthnoids. I dare you to find an episode where either of them say anything of the sort.

I guess to you, words have more meaning than action. You must be thinking people who are killing with their smile on are angels.

I guess to you, words have more meaning than action. You must be thinking people who are killing with their smile on are angels.

When exactly did I say that? Oh that's right, I didn't. You're just making crap up and attributing to me.

All I said is that wanting to exterminate an entire race is wrong. I guess that's uh, a radical new idea around here or something.

Your argument is basically that we can't condemn Flit's genocidal thoughts unless he actually goes out and starts killing innocent people? I guess racists shouldn't be condemned unless they act out and physically hurt people? Well NO, there are things that are socially acceptable to say and others that are not. Saying you want to exterminate a certain race is one of those that's inherently wrong. That's not open to interpretation.

"Oh but the other guys did X and Y, so it's OK for him to think that way" - NO, it's not . Two wrongs don't make a right.

__________________

I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark

Revolutionist Flit hasn't killed yet in cold blood. When Shanalua a Vegan co-opted spy escaped he said to Kio to let her go and focus on the mission. This shows regardless of his opinion he is still professional to this day.

Girrad Spriggan defected to the Vagans and attacked Federation troops, so Flit is right when he said talking to her is useless as she already picked a side.

Vegan is not a race but a sovereign state that has declared war on the rest of humanity. Its military and citizens support the genocide in Earth Sphere to make room for them. They are even willing to enslave the population of a colony orbiting Earth during the Assemu arc. That sounds like what Hitler was planning for the Slavs.