I see I elicited a very strong reaction, the truth hurts, that apple managed to screw up so badly in antennae design in the 4, but I guess to you apple is indeed perfect ("nobody's perfect remember). The fact is so far Nokia haven't released a phone that did short circuit itself via normal usage and dropped it's signal, and they do certainly have much more antennae engineers than apple. Nokia is a stellar phone company that lost it's market when mobile phones became computer/phone hybrids. That's their fault of course, but I doubt they had the resources to do much better. They still surpass apple in voice quality easily and they have tons of patents they should be payed for that can't just be bypassed by changing a piece of plastic.

I am not entirely sure what is going on, but here is what it seems like from the scant information and doing a lot of reading between the lines.

Nokia hold a shed load of patents essential for any SIM. They quite rightly want to garner income from those patents included in any new SIM design that incorporates them.

Apple doesn't want Nokia to have those royalties, so we have this piece of nonsense:

So Apple's proposal would see Nokia denied royalties, on the one hand or on the other, Nokia would get it's royalties but so would Apple, meaning Apple would get to use the new SIM design essentially for free, because what it had to pay Nokia, Nokia and others would also have to pay Apple.

It is a brilliant con on Apples part. If Nokia is to be believed they have no real IP to offer, but if their design proposal is accepted, they either don't have to pay Nokia for their IP or they themselves get paid for stuff all.

A brilliant ruse if it pays off.

Where do you get all that? Apple's nano-sim is a form-factor change, and uses the FRAND patents owned by Nokia. If nano-sim from Apple is accepted, Nokia will refuse to license this necessary patents as FRAND. So it seems to me that Nokia has currently non-FRAND patents they are offering as FRAND if their design in accepted.

The solution, of course, is to accept Nokia's standard, forcing Nokia to offer these new patents under FRAND, then Apple simply uses their own, now proprietary nano-sim form-factor forcing Nokia to offer the patents under FRAND. Apple can then shrink their devices substantially while others are forced to deal with the larger form-factor. Eventually, others will have to license the Apple patents, if Apple desires to, to compete.

Doesn't that mean Apple's position is win-win regardless? And Nokia loses regardless?

There will not be a disappearance of the sim card. It's in nobodies's best interest to have vSim's, software-based sims, or any other kind of non-removeable sim card. I predict within 2-3 years we'll see the subsidized phone market tank in the US, and adopting the European "buy the phone, pick the provider with the best offer" system, no more sim-locks. The only free phones will be Chinese-made android phones. We won't see it until there are devices that support more LTE bands. You can take a Verizon model new iPad now and run it on AT&T if you need to, but at 3.5G speeds.

There is also no reason to make a smaller sim card, yay you save 3mm, but that's an insignificant difference. Nokia's excuse is also rather laughable since if you can do that with a microsim in Nokia's devices already.

How many people put sim cards from newer devices into older ones? Nokia's sim card retention mechanism fold's down, allowing an incorrectly inserted smaller sim to make electrical contact if someone were to do so. The tray design prevents putting a larger sim to begin with, but wouldn't stop someone from forcing a larger sim card into the open tray slot.

People are stupid, that's a given, Nokia's excuse is "Apple's design let's stupid people break devices that we have to honor the warranty on." But Nokia's design if it's like micro SD-card's has the same problem where people will instead stick the nano-sim into the sd-card slot because it looks alike, and then won't be able to remove it because microsd cards are deeper.

You'll have to explain more as I don't own an iPhone or iPad, but why can't you use an iPhone SIM in an iPad? Or are you confusing your issue with your local carriers restrictions?

You can use a Apple Micro SIM with any phone or tablet on the market by putting into a cradle and visa versa by cutting down a normal SIM to put it into a iPhone 4S. There is no technical achievement Apple has done here other the get rid of the access board from a normal and mini SIM.

I think that is Nokia's point, if your going to do something new then do something new not just modify the existing technology heck we can do that and has with their mini SIM.

See, the stupidest patent in the world. Oh but we let you use it for free. Yea no shitt, let me grab my scissors.

If you don't want to use scissors then you can always buy one of these.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.

You can use a Apple Micro SIM with any phone or tablet on the market by putting into a cradle and visa versa by cutting down a normal SIM to put it into a iPhone 4S. There is no technical achievement Apple has done here other the get rid of the access board from a normal and mini SIM.

I think that is Nokia's point, if your going to do something new then do something new not just modify the existing technology heck we can do that and has with their mini SIM.

See, the stupidest patent in the world. Oh but we let you use it for free. Yea no shitt, let me grab my scissors.

If you don't want to use scissors then you can always buy one of these.

I used a laser engraver.

However, there's no evidence that is what is patented. Apple did patent a tray system.

Assuming it is patented, then I agree, it shouldn't be. But there's so little information that I've found to understand what is really going on.

I prefer the ability to adapt SIMs between device generations I've found it to be very convenient. Nokia's and RIM's system is not adaptable that way, something that is unprecedented in the history of SIMs.

You can use a Apple Micro SIM with any phone or tablet on the market by putting into a cradle and visa versa by cutting down a normal SIM to put it into a iPhone 4S. There is no technical achievement Apple has done here other the get rid of the access board from a normal and mini SIM.

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my question, someone made a statement that SIMs were not a standard as you couldn't use the SIM from a iPhone in an iPad, they still haven't answered why they believe you can't

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my question, someone made a statement that SIMs were not a standard as you couldn't use the SIM from a iPhone in an iPad, they still haven't answered why they believe you can't

You can use the same SIM from your iPhone in the iPad, I've done many, many times before when I had a iPhone 4.

Where do you get all that? Apple's nano-sim is a form-factor change, and uses the FRAND patents owned by Nokia. If nano-sim from Apple is accepted, Nokia will refuse to license this necessary patents as FRAND. So it seems to me that Nokia has currently non-FRAND patents they are offering as FRAND if their design in accepted.

The solution, of course, is to accept Nokia's standard, forcing Nokia to offer these new patents under FRAND, then Apple simply uses their own, now proprietary nano-sim form-factor forcing Nokia to offer the patents under FRAND. Apple can then shrink their devices substantially while others are forced to deal with the larger form-factor. Eventually, others will have to license the Apple patents, if Apple desires to, to compete.

Doesn't that mean Apple's position is win-win regardless? And Nokia loses regardless?

FRAND patents are only licensed on Free and Nondiscriminatory Terms for the standard that they apply to.

They would need to be licensed separately for other uses.

So using your example, if Apple decided to just go ahead with their own proprietary form factor, that form factor would be non-standard and FRAND would not apply. They would need to license any patented technologies used for whatever the patent holder could screw out of them.

Also if Apple decide to go it alone and just develop whatever they felt like, ignoring standards, they would probably have trouble getting their devices approved for use in highly regulated markets like the EU.