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Topic: Already vs. Someday (Read 4955 times)

Jerm

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

My view:All are saved, all are God's children... but some are just still "asleep" meaning, they do not yet realize the LOVE of the Creator who created them.

The verse 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"specially of those that believe" to me, means those who have been awakened to God's magnificent love and tenderness for ALL of His creation, are already entering into "heaven" while here on earth. That is where the "specially" comes from... We are on earth, but are already entering into the heavenlies by understanding more of how much He really does love us.

I believe that upon physical death, the soul of a person goes back to God. no matter what that person believed in life. Every knee will bow. A persons knees will most definitely BUCKLE at the LOVE of God. Every knee will bow.And every CHILD will meet His Father.

Those are just my beliefs.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

I believe some now, all later...He is everyone's Savior, but I believe some are "especially" believers, set aside for a specific purpose in this Age...they're not better than others, it's all His grace...they just have that purpose in this lifetime and I believe, will be used in part to bring the rest in...all working His plan unto the consummation when He is All in all, including when every knee bows and every tongue confesses Yesu is Master...

Romans 10:13 (Young's Literal Translation)

13for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

Logged

For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Zeek

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

and yet the scriptures are full of a "soon coming" , "at hand" message, along with "now".

how do you reconcile the spirit filled apostles speaking in "time" reference?

what has changed for you, compared to the audience they were talking to; where you now don't look at time, but yet imo they did??

Zeek

If one believes we are in the same age as the apostles and first century church; then to me these verses apply:

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

and yet the scriptures are full of a "soon coming" , "at hand" message, along with "now".

how do you reconcile the spirit filled apostles speaking in "time" reference?

what has changed for you, compared to the audience they were talking to; where you now don't look at time, but yet imo they did??

sincerely wondering.

Z

I struggle with this too Zeek but there seem to be 2 realms, our realm of time and space and Gods realm where I do not believe time and space exist, at least as we understand them. I live in this realm of time and space as did the writers of Scripture so our language will include the language of time and space but I know it points to something far higher and grander. I feel as if I live in the realm of no time and space (the kingdom of Heaven) in small ways too.

What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way. In this way Scripture is absolutely alive to me. It is a living thing that transcends time and space and is relevant for every single person. It is a living organism within all people, good and bad, tall and skinny, rich or poor. The Bible has it all and so does each person. I have not yet met a person, including our Lord, who does not have Scripture alive in them. I have met some very nasty people yet I see light in them somewhere deep in the darkness and I have met people who are just saint like yet I see some of 'Judas' or Satan in them.

Again I see the physical world too. This is Gods school for all of us, to raise us up to a higher understanding.

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

and yet the scriptures are full of a "soon coming" , "at hand" message, along with "now".

how do you reconcile the spirit filled apostles speaking in "time" reference?

what has changed for you, compared to the audience they were talking to; where you now don't look at time, but yet imo they did??

sincerely wondering.

Z

I struggle with this too Zeek but there seem to be 2 realms, our realm of time and space and Gods realm where I do not believe time and space exist, at least as we understand them. I live in this realm of time and space as did the writers of Scripture so our language will include the language of time and space but I know it points to something far higher and grander. I feel as if I live in the realm of no time and space (the kingdom of Heaven) in small ways too.

What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way. In this way Scripture is absolutely alive to me. It is a living thing that transcends time and space and is relevant for every single person. It is a living organism within all people, good and bad, tall and skinny, rich or poor. The Bible has it all and so does each person. I have not yet met a person, including our Lord, who does not have Scripture alive in them. I have met some very nasty people yet I see light in them somewhere deep in the darkness and I have met people who are just saint like yet I see some of 'Judas' or Satan in them.

Again I see the physical world too. This is Gods school for all of us, to raise us up to a higher understanding.

Please ask away if I missed your questions.

cp

Hi cp

you said "What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way."

Do you think then, that let's say Paul or Peter, was then missing out, by not seeing the scripture in a "more spiritual way", as they were living in the realm of time, and "about to happen", with "urgency".

Why do you think God is moving so many to see things in a "metaphysical" or "spiritual" plane now? Are we in a new age from back then??

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

and yet the scriptures are full of a "soon coming" , "at hand" message, along with "now".

how do you reconcile the spirit filled apostles speaking in "time" reference?

what has changed for you, compared to the audience they were talking to; where you now don't look at time, but yet imo they did??

sincerely wondering.

Z

I struggle with this too Zeek but there seem to be 2 realms, our realm of time and space and Gods realm where I do not believe time and space exist, at least as we understand them. I live in this realm of time and space as did the writers of Scripture so our language will include the language of time and space but I know it points to something far higher and grander. I feel as if I live in the realm of no time and space (the kingdom of Heaven) in small ways too.

What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way. In this way Scripture is absolutely alive to me. It is a living thing that transcends time and space and is relevant for every single person. It is a living organism within all people, good and bad, tall and skinny, rich or poor. The Bible has it all and so does each person. I have not yet met a person, including our Lord, who does not have Scripture alive in them. I have met some very nasty people yet I see light in them somewhere deep in the darkness and I have met people who are just saint like yet I see some of 'Judas' or Satan in them.

Again I see the physical world too. This is Gods school for all of us, to raise us up to a higher understanding.

Please ask away if I missed your questions.

cp

Hi cp

you said "What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way."

Do you think then, that let's say Paul or Peter, was then missing out, by not seeing the scripture in a "more spiritual way", as they were living in the realm of time, and "about to happen", with "urgency".

Why do you think God is moving so many to see things in a "metaphysical" or "spiritual" plane now? Are we in a new age from back then??

for me, I think so.

Z

Z, I don't understand why you think Paul and Peter did not see in the spirit. I do believe we all live in the physical and deal with all physical things as did Paul and Peter but maybe you need to re-read my last comments to you.

Just out of curiosity, which timeframe do y'all think salvation occurs in? By that, I mean do you think the entire world is already saved and just doesn't know it yet or that only those who believe are saved at the moment and the unbelievers will be saved later on?

Hey Jerm.

One thing I try to do when considering such good questions as you brought up is to get away from the concept of time altogether. There is no real timeframe with God. God is and all He does IS.

I know this is hard if not impossible for us time dwellers but I always experience some kind of response that I believe is from God Himself when I take this path.

cp

and yet the scriptures are full of a "soon coming" , "at hand" message, along with "now".

how do you reconcile the spirit filled apostles speaking in "time" reference?

what has changed for you, compared to the audience they were talking to; where you now don't look at time, but yet imo they did??

sincerely wondering.

Z

I struggle with this too Zeek but there seem to be 2 realms, our realm of time and space and Gods realm where I do not believe time and space exist, at least as we understand them. I live in this realm of time and space as did the writers of Scripture so our language will include the language of time and space but I know it points to something far higher and grander. I feel as if I live in the realm of no time and space (the kingdom of Heaven) in small ways too.

What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way. In this way Scripture is absolutely alive to me. It is a living thing that transcends time and space and is relevant for every single person. It is a living organism within all people, good and bad, tall and skinny, rich or poor. The Bible has it all and so does each person. I have not yet met a person, including our Lord, who does not have Scripture alive in them. I have met some very nasty people yet I see light in them somewhere deep in the darkness and I have met people who are just saint like yet I see some of 'Judas' or Satan in them.

Again I see the physical world too. This is Gods school for all of us, to raise us up to a higher understanding.

Please ask away if I missed your questions.

cp

Hi cp

you said "What has majorly changed for me is seeing all of Scripture in a more spiritual way."

Do you think then, that let's say Paul or Peter, was then missing out, by not seeing the scripture in a "more spiritual way", as they were living in the realm of time, and "about to happen", with "urgency".

Why do you think God is moving so many to see things in a "metaphysical" or "spiritual" plane now? Are we in a new age from back then??

for me, I think so.

Z

Z, I don't understand why you think Paul and Peter did not see in the spirit. I do believe we all live in the physical and deal with all physical things as did Paul and Peter but maybe you need to re-read my last comments to you.

Do you think John saw with a spiritual emphasis?

cp

maybe i read into this from previous posts by you, but I see Paul as seeing two sets of peoples, "those stuck in old covenant thinking" that would soon go through destruction; and those who were "given faith, eyes to see". I truly don't see how one can apply his warnings to the churches at that time, now as all inward, ie: like u see "tares within yourself" and "wheat within yourself" (unless there has been a change in ages). I personally don't see how one can look at his writings to the church and think he was really teaching in inward, "spiritual, satan in me, and Christ in me" approach. Even in Romans 9, he talks about the "bretheren" that were hardened who would be cut off. He isnt' applying this inward and saying he himself was "cut off" (one aspect of himself) and another aspect of himself wasn't. He literally was talking of two peoples, per Galatians 3-4 ("ishmaels" and "isaacs").

So, to move from the application I believe he was talking about, to an "inward application" (ie: tares/wheat example and many others), I see as a big leap, (not wrong), but a big leap.

Yes, I see Paul as "spiritual minded", but not in the way many here (myself included) see "spiritual" (as in all inward approach).

I see Paul as preaching in "time" as this was extremely important as "soon, (in time) coming judgment was upon them". The end of the ages was upon them. There was a definite "us versus them" at that time, and a "them to soon be destroyed".

In my line of sight, I think there were "a precious few" that did see the spiritual patterns . .but were very limited to what they could share. The writer of Hebrews . . .for one example . . . spoke about the fact that his listeners should be teaching others by now, but yet, they still craved milk themselves which caused them to have dull hearing . . .in other words . . . there is so much more "I want" to share, but you are unable to receive what I have.

And for me, I believe Paul had personal encounters with Christ to explain clearly things to him to preach . . .which were different from things that the new church preached . . ..even though it was brand new, the message of Paul was different than that of Peter . . .it depended on whether you were born in law or born in Christ. For me, the Jews are born in law . . .so there were different standards . .they still circumcized . . but Paul preached that the Gentiles didn't have to have a physical circumcision because this is a spiritual experience . .the physical requirements are done away.

At any rate, I think that we are given what we've been given not because we've met the criteria for receiving, but that we are being called to plant the seeds that have manifested in us, into others. And if we are willing to step out and begin sharing these revelations . . .the "chosen" goes into effect in our lives as well.

We are not a called generation, but a chosen one. They were a chosen one literally 2,000 years ago . . .we are a chosen one spiritually here and now. So lets fulfill the prophetic prayer of Christ and call out that which done in the spirit . . .to be complete in the earth. I think John also received spiritual insight above and beyond. The first three gospels were all about the natural happenings of Jesus ministry . . .look at how John opens his book up . . .it was dimensional right off the bat and he never looked back.

So back on topic, I don't see how the apostles and believers in the first century were "saved" yet, until the "end came upon them".

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

as long as "faith" is not "ended", then salvation not complete.

but;

I do think that now, in this age/time, we can receive the "end of our faith", NOW, HIM. A knowing, rather than a belief. LIFE NOW.

jmo

so hard to communicate and so little time in between little breaks at work.

blessings.

Z

First of all, good stuff Nathan.

Zeek, I don't claim to know Paul inside and out. He said he was caught up to the third heaven which sounds pretty far out of the physical to me. Paul taught about the new man and the old, about taking one off and putting on the other. These things are mysterious ways of saying something don't you think?

What I see Brother, is that there is change going on all the time. God said He is making man in His image. IMO this is an ongoing, until completed, work. In God, all is done, or is it? Does God have His creative moments, His moments of awe? Is God capable of thinking or is all a done deal to Him. Have we elevated God too high even for Himself, as if we could. What I mean is, do we make God out to be so high and all knowing that our human experience is boring or, worse yet, meaningless to Him?

Did I go way off base here?

Zeek, if you've read any of my writings you know I believe Scripture is a living essence. It is the story and life of people.You are receiving life now, every second. You are a living Bible being created in Christ Jesus unto good works. You are complete in Christ yet God is working in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Release yourself from the time and space continuum sometimes when looking at Scripture or talking to God. Not all the time, just once in a while.

Zeek

So back on topic, I don't see how the apostles and believers in the first century were "saved" yet, until the "end came upon them".

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

as long as "faith" is not "ended", then salvation not complete.

but;

I do think that now, in this age/time, we can receive the "end of our faith", NOW, HIM. A knowing, rather than a belief. LIFE NOW.

jmo

so hard to communicate and so little time in between little breaks at work.

blessings.

Z

First of all, good stuff Nathan.

Zeek, I don't claim to know Paul inside and out. He said he was caught up to the third heaven which sounds pretty far out of the physical to me. Paul taught about the new man and the old, about taking one off and putting on the other. These things are mysterious ways of saying something don't you think?

What I see Brother, is that there is change going on all the time. God said He is making man in His image. IMO this is an ongoing, until completed, work. In God, all is done, or is it? Does God have His creative moments, His moments of awe? Is God capable of thinking or is all a done deal to Him. Have we elevated God too high even for Himself, as if we could. What I mean is, do we make God out to be so high and all knowing that our human experience is boring or, worse yet, meaningless to Him?

Did I go way off base here?

Zeek, if you've read any of my writings you know I believe Scripture is a living essence. It is the story and life of people.You are receiving life now, every second. You are a living Bible being created in Christ Jesus unto good works. You are complete in Christ yet God is working in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Release yourself from the time and space continuum sometimes when looking at Scripture or talking to God. Not all the time, just once in a while.

cp

thanks cp for your patience with me. I actually release myself from time/space continuum daily, and hopefully moment by moment; as I actually believe we can transcent "time" now.

I am not that far off of u in how I approach scripture, but for me; I needed to know a "why" I can approach scripture from this perspective; when I truly don't think the first century church approached it in a "metaphysical"/spiritual" way, even though they were "spiritual". I truly believe we are in a different age since then.

thanks cp for your patience with me. I actually release myself from time/space continuum daily, and hopefully moment by moment; as I actually believe we can transcent "time" now.

I am not that far off of u in how I approach scripture, but for me; I needed to know a "why" I can approach scripture from this perspective; when I truly don't think the first century church approached it in a "metaphysical"/spiritual" way, even though they were "spiritual". I truly believe we are in a different age since then.

blessings;

sorry to be one who seems to always use your posts to question.

z

Don't ever apologize for 'using' me. It's good to be noticed!

In one sense they are in a different age yet in another sense they are one in Adam/Christ with us. I tend to see Paul, Peter, Moses, especially Jesus, Judas, Mary, Martha, Daniel, you, me and so on as current realities. In what we call Pauls day there were people who were tight with God, spiritual giants we might call them, and there were the bad guys. In our day I see the same pattern, exactly.

Zeek, God is building one Body with Christ as the head. It is a timeless creation made in the boundaries of time yet not really as I think you will understand.

You can approach Scripture any way you want as long as you really talk to God about what you are doing. Experiment with Scripture, have fun with it, stretch it, make love to it, romance it. Just don't ever willingly abuse it or take it for granted. Don't ever be frivolous with it. Reason with God. I personally think He will love you doing so. He knows how hard and mysterious He has made Scripture and He knows how we tick. Do you think He would ever get mad at us for really digging in and trying to find Him via Scripture. Search for God with your whole heart and soul and fear not, He will not stay hidden for long. He loves to give to us but He wants us to really want it first.

Zeek

thanks cp for your patience with me. I actually release myself from time/space continuum daily, and hopefully moment by moment; as I actually believe we can transcent "time" now.

I am not that far off of u in how I approach scripture, but for me; I needed to know a "why" I can approach scripture from this perspective; when I truly don't think the first century church approached it in a "metaphysical"/spiritual" way, even though they were "spiritual". I truly believe we are in a different age since then.

blessings;

sorry to be one who seems to always use your posts to question.

z

Don't ever apologize for 'using' me. It's good to be noticed!

In one sense they are in a different age yet in another sense they are one in Adam/Christ with us. cp

So are we in Adam too? moving from Adam to Christ??

or is Christ the last adam??

Could it be, that we in our perception see ourselves as adam's, but in reality; that is false; the veil truly is torn, the wall has been torn down; and we are no longer bound to Adam.

cp, have you ever read this article?? i'd be interested in your view of it. or anyone else here....

Jerm

I guess I should add my own view as well. Something I've looked at and agree with sees "salvation" in three parts. Part One is Reconciliation. This refers to what happened on the Cross and how it reconciled all of humanity back to God, both believer and non believer. Part Two is Awakening/Freedom. This is, as the name suggests, an awakening to what Christ did at the cross and the consequental freedom that comes from that revelation. This is only true for those who believe, though everyone will believe eventually. The Third Part is Deliverence. This is when we are made immortal and delivered from the power of death and will occur in the future. So, you could sum this up by saying we were saved, we are being saved, and we are going to be saved.

Makes a lot of sense to me Jerm...IMO, with all of them being specific events, including the middle one being an actual "faith to believe on and call on Jesus" event...that's the way I understand it, anyway...God reconciling Himself to us, us being reconciled to God, then all kneeling and confessing

I guess I should add my own view as well. Something I've looked at and agree with sees "salvation" in three parts. Part One is Reconciliation. This refers to what happened on the Cross and how it reconciled all of humanity back to God, both believer and non believer. Part Two is Awakening/Freedom. This is, as the name suggests, an awakening to what Christ did at the cross and the consequental freedom that comes from that revelation. This is only true for those who believe, though everyone will believe eventually. The Third Part is Deliverence. This is when we are made immortal and delivered from the power of death and will occur in the future. So, you could sum this up by saying we were saved, we are being saved, and we are going to be saved.

Makes a lot of sense to me Jerm...IMO, with all of them being specific events, including the middle one being an actual "faith to believe on and call on Jesus" event...that's the way I understand it, anyway...God reconciling Himself to us, us being reconciled to God, then all kneeling and confessing

I guess I should add my own view as well. Something I've looked at and agree with sees "salvation" in three parts. Part One is Reconciliation. This refers to what happened on the Cross and how it reconciled all of humanity back to God, both believer and non believer. Part Two is Awakening/Freedom. This is, as the name suggests, an awakening to what Christ did at the cross and the consequental freedom that comes from that revelation. This is only true for those who believe, though everyone will believe eventually. The Third Part is Deliverence. This is when we are made immortal and delivered from the power of death and will occur in the future. So, you could sum this up by saying we were saved, we are being saved, and we are going to be saved.

Wow, great resonation coming from this. This has revelation from God written all over it. So glad you shared this with us. The trademark of coming in threes . . . I receive that with open arms man . .. great post. May God plant this deeply in me that I may reproduce the same seed into others as you have just done in me.