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sorry guys

Sorry guys...

Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

Pretty clearly there's an issue here. otherwise the tone wouldnt have gotten so shrill. I now know that now is not the time for this topic. I knew some feathers would fly when i named the thread. I just didnt think it would be tar and feathers...

My mistake: we're not going to be able to have an honest open discussion about this topic...at this time.

I always read your posts. So I was sorry that i managed to piss you off so quick. There's alot of different kinds of keepers. Understand , were sort of hippy out here on the coast- we discuss alternative energy and exchange granola recipes. and yes we talk about pesticide as "poison".

I have never pointed fingers at fellow bee keepers for their pest management practices. I may not agree with all their choices but I never said, "keeper Bob puts DDT in his hives- dont buy his honey"- nor would I ever say such a thing. I have said, in reply to a queery about the high price of my honey," WE use no treatments in OUR hives. We dont get as much honey because mites are killing our hives and we are breeding queen only from the survivors. That costs more. Your posts seem heartfelt and knowlegable. No offence was intended to you or your bussiness.

If you don't use chems in your hives, How can you make the statement in your first post here that most of us do? (WE DON'T) And if you look at your post on page one and compare it with your post on page two It would appear that you contradict yourself.

...better get those glasses checked, Robert. Go back and re read it again.

I never said I used that stuff in my hives. Just because I dont use chems- doesnt mean I dont comunicate with those that do. Heck it all over ABJ and Bee Culture. We all learned that it was nessesary. Most of the beginner books have whole sections on "treating" with Apistan and checkmite and all the gear (nitrile gloves, respirators , etc ) that is required to handle it "safely".

Its more than a little disingenuous for you to pretend that alot keepers dont use it. Again re read all the responses on page 1 on this tread; you'll notice that people got all sheepish and sly about what they say to their customers.

Never said you did. My point was that saying "it is standard proceedure for most beekeepers to dose their hives with miticides and antibiotics at least once, twice a year- Mavrik., etc." Is a harsh and untrue accusation. I would understand it if you really believed it but if you don't use them yourself, then you probably know that it's a lie.

boy matt you sure seemed to have touched on some freyed nerves here... may I assume??? you enjoy playing with hornets nest in your time away from beesource.

it make one suspect that there is one or two here that would really rather not face the moral paradox which you described (and seem to be thinking about at some level).

the difference I see is that some of us sell our honey... 1)face to face, to local folks that could well be our neighbor.... others 2) sell their honey in 55 gallon drums with no idea of who or where the honey is eventually consumed.

mr laury writes:
Is there anyone whose LIVING DEPENDS ON IT who cares to comment?

tecumseh: except for feeding my soul the bees are unessential for my life.

this however seems to be a strange question from someone who admits using unapproved products in their hives and who also insist that their product is untainted and pure.

Honestly, Didnt mean to hurt anyone's feelings.Feelings? This really has nothing to do with feelings. Believe it or not, you did a good thing bring it up. Sorry, you just happen to become the pigeon we are using for target practice.

Pretty clearly there's an issue here. otherwise the tone wouldnt have gotten so shrill. I now know that now is not the time for this topic. I knew some feathers would fly when i named the thread. I just didnt think it would be tar and feathers... I don't think there is a time set for this. It is always time. Besides, takes the focus off of politics.

If you don't use chems in your hives, How can you make the statement in your first post here that most of us do? (WE DON'T) And if you look at your post on page one and compare it with your post on page two It would appear that you contradict yourself.

You keep referring to commercial beeks who treat their hives with poison, who are these guys because I know most of the commercial beeks in Colorado and a few from other states and none of them treat as you have suggested.

and just because some of us don't sit around eating granola doesn't mean we treat our hives with chemicals. I eat meat and potatoes and care for my hives using the most natural ways known. I think what has got most people here shaking their heads is the assumptions you made and to date have posted nothing to back up what you put in your first post.

I suspect that you tell the public about poisoning of hives by commercial beeks just to boost your sales at the farmers market. If this is the case you are doing a dis-service to the whole beekeeping industry and worse, lying to make a few extra bucks.

Prepared Testimony of Maryann Frazier
Senior Extension Associate
Department of Entomology
The Pennsylvania State University
before the
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Agriculture
Subcommittee on Horticulture and Organic Agriculture
on
Update on Colony Collapse Disorder in Honey Bee Colonies in the United States
June 26, 2008http://agriculture.house.gov/testimo...26/Frazier.doc

In a total of 108 pollen samples analyzed, 46 different pesticides including six of their metabolites were identified. Up to 17 different pesticides were found in a single sample. Samples contained an average of 5 different pesticide residues each. Only three of the 108 pollen samples had no detectable pesticides. In a total of 88 wax samples analyzed, 20 different pesticides including two of their metabolites were identified. As was found in pollen, fluvalinate, coumaphos, chlorpyrifos, and the fungicide chlorthalonil, were the most commonly detected pesticides with fluvalinate and coumaphos detected in 100% of the samples.

Unprecedented amounts of fluvalinate (up to 204 ppm) at high frequencies have been detected in brood nest wax, and pollen (bee bread). Changes in the formulation of fluvalinate over time resulting in a significant increase in toxicity to honey bees, makes this a serious concern. The large numbers and multiple kinds of pesticides that have been found could result in potentially toxic interactions for which there are no scientific studies to date. European researchers have found similar pesticides and frequencies in hive matrices and express similar concerns. Also these chronic levels of pesticides in pollen and wax at potentially acute toxicity levels need further investigation with regard to their potential interactions with other stressors (e.g. IAPV) and their potential contribution to CCD.

and

Additionally, the chemical miticides being used to control varroa mites, accumulate in the wax combs and pollen reserves and are possibly contributing to the bee’s demise as much as they are controlling the mites. For the beekeeping industry to survive we must have safe, effective varroa mite control methods. This will only happen if significant new resources are focused in this direction.

I know it's a touchy issue, but for me personally, I let my customers know that I do not put anything into my hives that the bees do not bring in themselves. No, I don't open feed either. I will not claim that my honey is more pure than . . .

Agreed. Greg and I don't use chemicals on our hives either. We did at one time, but quit over ten years ago.

If not chemicals what?

What are you beeks that are not putting anything in your hives using to control the pests and problems? I have used fluvalinate and coumaphos to control mites, fumidil for nosema and tylan for foul brood. I have a hard time believing that some of you or as someone said most of you are not using any chemicals or treatments in your hives.

You take care of your stuff

I treat my bees with any thing I can to get rid of the problems I have. Just as anyone would treat their livestock cows, chickens, pigs, or any thing else they have. I can not and will not rebuild the amount of hives and investment we lose by my not caring for my bees. Have you thought of the replacement cost a commercial beekeeper would suffer by not treating our hives with the approved methods. I know all the hobbyist that micro manage a few hives can suffer that loss and rebuild but not us pros but they treat their bees too. And yes we do sell in bulk so labeling isn't a big issue there. When it's sold around my place it's in 55 gallon barrels. So then I wonder how many hives some commercial people may have because I have never sat at a farmers market selling honey and probably in all my time haven't bottled more that 2 barrels in one year of honey to give most of that away.