Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Silvershadow234 vs. New Breed]

Counter that Pokemon - Mk IIIapproved by SilentVerse | probably co-lead by the big man as well

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Welcome everyone to the new edition of the Counter that Pokemon project! Last time it was a great success, spawning some interesting discussion and inspiring new ideas. The metagame has changed quite a bit since the last thread: Dark-type Honchkrow, Sharpedo and Krookodile have left us, as well as Cofagrigus. We've however obtained Nidoqueen, and permanent weather in the form of Hail. The metagame has changed dramatically, in other words. That said, I'm going to keep this boring introduction short and explain a little better what the CtP project is.

Q: What are we going to do?
A: The idea is to build two teams that, while not necessarily very good in general, are designed to counter each other to the best of their abilities. We will choose the pokes that will compose the two teams in an alternated fashion: if "1" represents a pick for the Team 1, and "2" a pick for the Team 2, the picks will look like this: 1 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 1, so except from the first and the last choice, each team will select two pokes consecutively, attempting to neuter the portion of the other team already known, pose new threats for the opponents, and avoid creating excessive weaknesses that could be easily exploited later. The project will end with a battle between the two teams, to "determine" which team countered "better" the opponent.

Q: How does the picking process work?
A: There are two phases when picking a pokemon for any of the two teams: a discussion phase and a voting phase. In the first phase you propose new sets, give feedback on others' proposals, and generally discuss what direction we should follow for the team that's picking currently. The second phase is a single bold voting, where everyone can express his or her preference for the set he or she thinks is best suited for the team. The discussion phase will last roughly 48-72 hours for each pokemon we to pick to allow everyone to propose a set and comment on the already listed ones; the voting will be faster, with a duration of 24-48 hours (I'll adjust the durations according to participation / relevance of discussion / other factors).

Rules:

1. One set per person. A valid set should include all of the following elements: sprite / image, name of the pokemon, item, ability, nature, EVs, IVs (you can omit this in case they're obvious), moveset, and a description about why your suggestion fits the current team (please avoid one-line submissions). Lack of any of those elements can result in your set not being listed for voting.

2. No slashes in movesets. The only exceptions are: Blizzard / Ice Beam, Thunder / Thunderbolt, Hurricane / Air Slash, SolarBeam / Leaf Storm or Energy Ball. If the team selects the appropriate weather inducer, the weather dependant move will be chosen, and the other one if the team choose to go weatherless.

3. Do not complain about the sets listed for voting. If your set wasn't listed for some reasons, contact me in private; I'll happily give advice on how to make a better suggestion, or will edit the voting slate if it was just a mistake.

4. When voting, make sure to bold your vote and nothing else in your post.

5. Voting for your own set is allowed, for now. However please keep in mind that there's nothing to win here, so if I see everyone just voting consistently for himself or herself, I'll modify this rule and disallow self voting.

6. If there is a tie in a vote, one or both of the topic leaders (me or SilentVerse, depending on availability) will cast their vote to break them.

How does a good submission look like?
There are many examples of awesome submissions, with different presentation, reasoning, and whatever else. Just lurk a bit the old CtP thread to have a rough idea and you should be fine. A general good idea is to use the set export feature from PO or PS!, use an image (preferably a simple game sprite) and at least a paragraph of text describing your choice. Do that and your set is sure to attract attention.

My submission stops cold all the pokes of the opposing team! It's perfect!
Maybe. Or maybe it's just overspecialized for the current lineup of the enemy team, and opens much worse scenarios in case the enemy exploits your careless picking. We've seen quite a bit of those proposals in the past, including Signal Beam Cresselia just to counter a Meloetta (no offense intended, but that was just a terrible submission). Those kind of entries are just bad, so please make sure to think a bit more before postng if your idea resembles that. CrackinSkulls gave us awesome guidelines in this perspective, so I'm quoting his post here:

Originally Posted by Fat CrackinSkulls
It is a teambuilding game where pokemon are suggested for there respective team. At the end of the day these two teams will battle each other. We want to win this battle. So how do we ensure that... we make each set on our team counter our opponents and be as uncounterable as possible so our opponents are hard pressed to counter it with there next addition. Essentially we want to beat our opponent by countering them and preventing them from countering us. I feel that currently people are not understanding this. In the above Dusclops example, do we actually want to build a team around Dusclops!? This gives the opponent hundreds of options to choose from, Tyranitar which is a HUGE advantage because of sand, hell even a Bisharp becomes possible and very tough to counter. In short when you guys start a team do you honestly go "hmm lets make a team around chansey".

You guys are all intelligent people, use your intelligence, wit and cunning to accomplish this task by trapping your opponent just as you would in a match and using your match honed prediction to ensnare your opponent in a sticky web of cunning. Predict their choices and act upon them, play mind games, this game is supposed to bring out the best of our battle honed minds. If we are resorting to using Dusclops and Cresselia our opponent has us on the back foot in the first round from where they can dominate, bully and force into submission. So cunning OU players out there use your match skills to outpredict, outplay and beat the opponent. To quote Poppy in the Ubers thread " Pick discreetly, with the intention to bait, befoul, bludgeon, barf upon, and generally bring waste to the opposition."

If you guys are struggling to understand the concept have a look at the ubers thread or the previous OU one . Anyway i hope i could help you guys understand the game and keep this thread a little cleaner. Don't post nonsense posts keep them simple, clean and easy to follow. Good luck with the game.

Click to expand...

So the discussion phase is only about posting sets?
Please let me put emphasis on this: NO!!! The most important part of the discussion phase is, well, discussion and feedback on others' sets. The old thread was full of awesome posts, people discussed, changed their sets according to feedback, and it was just a nice, friendly and inspiring environment. This is what we aim to have, and hopefully with your help we'll obtain something great like that.

You talked about teams a million of times till now. Do we need to split ourselves in two teams?
Nope. You're free to contribute to the discussion while picking pokes for Team 1, 2, or both, as you please. I encourage contributing actively for both teams, since it makes the project funnier and avoid the risks of a team running out of proposals / submissions / discussion.

IMPORTANT! Team 1 has a HUGE advantage! Picking last is gamebreaking!
This concern is perfectly justified. In fact, the last CtP was heavily affected from this "asymmetry": Team 2 built a very good offensive team, but failed to see his own weakness to hazards and inability to break through sturdy defensive walls. This resulted into Team 1 picking Deoxys-D as last member, and a quite easy victory in the final battle. This should be an example for us: we need to avoid being weak to a particular strategy when building teams (Team 2 in particular, since it's most exposed to surprise counter-picks). While this thing may be seen as a flaw in the CtP process, I'm persuaded that, while it gives an advantage to Team 1, it can be handled quite well being aware of that, and the fact that Team 2 is harder to build should be an incentive to more experienced or inspired battlers / builders to participate.

Here is a link to the OU version of this project. We will run this project with the same guidelines, only obviously in the RU tier. Check it out so you can see what to expect!

UU Leader

This thing is just great, virtually nothing can switch into it. If the other team lacks a Steel type Pokemon just click Outrage and kill something. If the other team does carry a Steel type Earthquake and Fire Punch OHKO / 2HKO all of them except some Steelix but it can't do shit to Druddigon.

Normally I would run enough speed to beat most Tangrowth, but the other team can just run a small speed investment to beat that so speed creeping is pointless.

Durant really limits the opposing teams teambuilding, due to its insane power. After a Hone Claws boost, which with a Lum Berry and a decent defensive typing isn't all that difficult, Durant can 1HKO the large majority of the metagame. The only real counters to this set are Poliwrath and Qwilfish. If the opponent doesn't use either Qwilfish or Poliwrath, the latter of which only really works on balance and defensive teams, then they will have to run a fast scarfer, or a fast mon that can 1HKO, and they won't be able to use a pokemon that allows durant to set-up, which includes most Pursuit pokemon, without a lot of difficulty, as Durant can simply get a kill every time they switch in one of these mons due to it's ridiculous power.

RU Co-Leader

Zangoose is another Pokemon that's really hard to outright counter just like the Durant and Druddigon sets posted above. While Zangoose takes 1 turn to reach its full power, its fully capable of breaking through pretty much anything that the opponent could throw at it after Toxic Boost kicks in. Zangoose only has one Pokemon that can beat it 100% of the time, and this threat lacks reliable recovery, making it easier to wear down over time. The opposing team will most likely have to play around Zangoose and/or try to revenge kill it to prevent it from demolishing multiple team members, and even if Zangoose doesnt end up sweeping when it goes down, the huge holes left in the opposing team will make it much easier for a possible teammate to clean up late game.

This Emboar set remedies its speed, allowing it to outspeed every pokemon in the tier bar accelgor. Its Flare Blitz hits like a train, with a BP 180 after STAB, and its superpower deals 150 BP. It can take many things with surprise such as a cinccino, nidoqueen, etc, by outspeeding them when you originally wouldnt without a choice scarf. It can late game sweep well if you play it right, and is a big threat if you are unprepared for it, which most teams are not since emboar is so new here and such an undiscovered threat.
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Accelgor is a very underrated and deadly sweeper out speeding practically the entire team and with its great coverage it can land many 2hkoes and ohkoes. (Even 2hkoing Cryogonal). If Nidoqueen ends up staying in the tier then Hp water is the better option because then u hit queen and moltres but if queen leaves then hp rock is obviously the better choice. Overall Accelgor is walled by very little and hits like a brick.

Specs slowking is often thought to be out-classed by stall slowking, but it still has 100 base special attack! I have used this set myself, and it does work very well (I prefer the previous lo set but cherub doesn't...) and has superb coverage, covering all of its weaknesses besides electric... and dark... and ghost. As well, with specs surf almost OHKO's them anyway, sometimes it does.
It does at least take out a lot of top threats in the tier, and still very good regardless.

I'm really liking some of these suggestions. The majority seem to be allout powerful attackers that have little to no counters. I think that this is the right way to start off, as if we pack an actual sweeper, the opposing team can counter it with little difficulty. For this reason my favourite nominations so far are Druddigon, Zangoose and Accelgor. Durant and Emboar are also strong choices as they hit hard and fast, but Durant requires setup and can be countered, and Emboar will often be forced to be locked into a move that can be pivoted around.

celever, have you even tried out your Slowking set? I seriously doubt in its effectiveness. One with Life Orb you're drastically cutting into Slowking's most valuable asset: its survivability and bulk. Two, with its horrible base Speed its not going to be sweeping anything with Nasty Plot, as it's still outpaced by nigh every offensive Pokemon in the tier. And third, you're suggesting that we invest Speed EVs into SLOWking. I have no issues with the Pokemon itself, but at least try more effective routes such as an OTR set, a Specs set or a LO set with Thunder Wave, as Slowking is good at spreading around paralysis due to the fact that Ground-types fear its STAB

Almost everyone falls for Sap Sipper unless you're obvious about it. Wild Charge for a powerful STAB its recoil combined with LO recoil is a lot to take (Though, it is worth it). Flame Charge for the futile grass types that still decide to stay in after giving +1 Attack to Zebstrika. Thunder Wave to cripple switch-ins and Me First for a nasty surprise (like Dragon Tail Steelix for example).

Look, not to bash another set, but this isn't a community create a team project. It's a counter that Pokemon project with TWO teams. You can't say the opponent will fall for sap sipper when they know exactly what the set is. Anyway, that zebstrika is hard countered by any ground type really, and is both weak, frail and easy to take advantage of.

Alright then, I was kinda hoping for a little bit of discussion on these choices, but I guess you're all a wee bit shy? Ah well, I guess there's not much to discuss in the first phase anyway. Here are the choices we have to start off Team 1:

Anyway, my vote will be going to Double01's Accelgor. It appears as a very interesting choice as not only a fearful sweeper but also as a revenge killer. It's coverage is excellent, it's power good and it's Speed phenomenal. I've been wanting to see offensive Accelgor in action for a long time now, and now seems like a perfect opportunity.

RU Co-Leader

Druddigon needs no introduction, it is without a doubt one of the best wallbreakers in the RU tier and one of the hardest Pokemon to outright counter in the metagame. Druddigon's also really bulky and hassome great resistances to fall back on which gives it a bit more utility than the other options given, further cementing itself as an excellent option.

Moderator

Everything is pretty cool, but I gotta go with Molk's Zangief, since he's my favorite Mortal Kombat character !_!Also it does noticeably restrict Team 2's team-building in that they have to either pack a couple select 'mons or maintain constant offensive pressure to prevent it from finding free turns to get off its Toxic Orb and smash through things.