Fall down 7 times, get up 8 times is wrong!

“Fall down 7 times, get up 8 times” is sure to be a saying all martial artists have heard. I’ve seen it on a number of dojo walls and in a lot of martial literature … but it bugs me! It’s wrong!

Firstly, the mathematics and geometry make it impossible. If a person falls down, then they are down (Fall 1) … and when they get up, they are back up (Get Up 1). We then have Fall 2, and then Get Up 2. This continues five more times until “Get Up 7”. When you are up, you are already up. It is impossible to perform the action of rising from a risen position! How are we supposed to “get up” the eighth time? You can’t …. without an eighth fall. So, it’s fundamentally flawed mathematically.

It’s also wrong as a concept.

On the first fall, we should learn from the fall and try not to fall again. We were not pushed down or knocked down; we fell down. If you are advising someone who has fallen seven times to get up an eighth time you are effectively saying:

“Keep making the same mistakes over and over (you keep falling) … and seek the impossible each time (trying to get up when you are already up) …. instead of learning (stop falling!) … and moving forward (all this rising and falling sees you end up in the exact same place you started! While seeking to achieve the impossible!)”.

“Be a continual idiot, never move from where you are, and seek the impossible!” is hardly motivational!

The phase can be made a bit better by changing the the dimension and the cause. If we get KNOCKED BACKWARD seven times, then it is possible to step FORWARD eight times and then be one step forward ((-7) + 8 = +1). There has been a change in circumstance! You are no longer there you started! You changed your position by doing something difficult. You did not stay static while trying to “advance” in impossible ways.

However, if you can’t make the one step forward, because you keep getting knocked back, then it may be smart to try one step right, one step forward, one step left! You reach the desired location in three steps! And that can be quicker and less painful that walking into problems all the time.

1) Learn from setbacks; don’t keep repeating the same errors.

2) Some problems are best circumnavigated! Be flexible!

3) Accept that not everything is under you control, but you do have power over the things that are!

4) Move in the directions you can move. Change the things you can change. Always seek to advance in ways that are possible. Difficult is possible. Hard is possible. Rare is possible. However, some things are impossible. I can train myself to be fitter, faster, stronger … but not taller! We are seeking real world results! Work within the realms of the possible.

5) Be tenacious! But also be flexible and smart!

“Fall down 7 times, get up 8 times” is not a wise saying. On examination, it promotes pig-headedness, a failure to consider alternative paths, a failure to learn, a failure to accept what is in our control, a failure to advance …. it even reflects a failure to count! Can we dump it please? :-)

However, perhaps the first stand-up is childhood to adulthood, towards standing on your own two feet. :) This would fix the maths.

I think perhaps this is a cultural thing in which the proverb's cultural source deems the "process" as correction - unquestionably correct - and the fault is the individual for not attaining the desired conformity to acheive the "process" and hence needs to try and try again to conform.

Other cultures question the "process" and recognise that the individual is truly an individual and conformity without adaption may inhibit success.

However, perhaps the first stand-up is childhood to adulthood, towards standing on your own two feet. :) This would fix the maths.

Very clever! “Get up 8 times, fall down 7” seems a lot more pessimistic in tone though :-)

Bob Davis wrote:

if you are going to start analysing "Motivational" Karate memes you have a lifetimes work on your hands, I've yet to see one that stands up to even a modest amount of thought :-)

Oh, I don’t know. There are a lot that resonate with me. One of the appeals of karate for me is the “mini-world” the dojo creates for us to learn lessons in.

One of my all-time favourites is:

"One whose spirit and mental strength have been strengthened by sparring with a never-say-die attitude should find no challenge too great to handle. One who has undergone long years of physical pain and mental agony to learn one punch, one kick, should be able to face any task, no matter how difficult, and carry it through to the end. A person like this can truly be said to have learned karate." – Gichin Funakoshi.

I’m with Funakoshi fully. Dojo time has taught me things that have kept me going when I suspect would have been crushed otherwise. I’ve seen others buckle and break is similar circumstances, but karate has fostered a resilience, discipline and determination that keeps you swinging. That has been worth more to me that any technique I’ve learnt.

Some are definitely trite and “fluffy”, but I think there’s a lot that karate can add to our lives and I see some good written expressions of that.

Les Bubka wrote:

my understanding of this one was more as never give up, instead learn from mistakes.

Mine too, but I think we need to be firmly committed to the goal while being flexible about the means of achieving that goal. I think the quote fails to capture the flexibility side of things.

As W. C. Fields said, “If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it.”

I’d not say “quit”, but “change tactics” :-)

PASmith wrote:

Fall down 7 times...you've had too many pints and it's time for a kebab. :)

Drunkenness would explain the mathematical failing :-) “Fall down seven times, get up … how may times did I get up? … eight! … I’m awesome at getting up … I can even get up when I’m up! … you know, I think I’m probably better at getting up when I’m drunk …. Aaaahhhh.” :-)

Add to that: "What doesn't kill us only makes us harder." Which is just as logically flawed as the other ones.

That’s one that definitely gets lost in translation. While Nietzsche’s quote is commonly translated as, “That which does not kill us serves to make us stronger”, I prefer the alterative translation of “That which does not destroy us serves to make us stronger.” That’s an important distinction. We can be destroyed but still be alive.

Another of Nietzsche’s oft-quoted lines is, “I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage.” He is therefore clear that life’s hardships are not guaranteed to be advantageous to us! The mere fact it did not kill us does not mean we benefit from it. However, the fact we did not let is destroy us both shows and develops strength.

Life’s difficulties have the potential to make us or break us. The ones that don’t destroy us, the ones we can turn to our advantage, they are the ones that make is stronger.

It’s pretty much what Funakoshi said:

"One whose spirit and mental strength have been strengthened by sparring with a never-say-die attitude should find no challenge too great to handle. One who has undergone long years of physical pain and mental agony to learn one punch, one kick, should be able to face any task, no matter how difficult, and carry it through to the end. A person like this can truly be said to have learned karate." – Gichin Funakoshi.

You see the same idea expressed all over the place:

“When heaven is about to confer a great responsibility on any man, it will exercise his mind with suffering, subject his sinews and bones to hard work, expose his body to hunger, put him to poverty, place obstacles in the paths of his deeds, so as to stimulate his mind, harden his nature, and make achievable what would otherwise not be.” – Mencius

“I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.” – Muhammad Ali

"Adversity has the effect of eliciting talents, which in prosperous circumstances would have lain dormant." – Horace

“Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!” – Rocky Balboa

And so on. Hardships can destroy us … but they can also increase strength, power, and abilities.

I suppose we should all be listening to "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba while reading this thread.

Despite the bad math (yeah, that one always bugged me too) I like the idea of conveying a message of resiliance and a refusal to surrender or give up ... and the key is to add in the concept of learning from one's defeats and setbacks, in order to get better. For the longest time, I used the oft-used quote to express that ...

Well, one word with some background. Some of you may be familiar with retired Navy SEAL Jocko Willink, who currently works as a management leadership consultant, podcaster, and author. In his third-ever podcast, he explained his approach to setbacks ...

How do I deal with setbacks, failures, delays, defeats, or other disasters? I actually have a fairly simple way of dealing with these situations, summed up in one word:

“Good.”

This is something that one of my direct subordinates, one of the guys who worked for me, a guy who became one of my best friends pointed out.

He would pull me aside with some major problem or issue that was going on, and he’d say, “Boss, we’ve got this thing, this situation, and it’s going terribly wrong.”

I would look at him and say, “Good.”

And finally, one day, he was telling me about something that was going off the rails, and as soon as he finished explaining it to me, he said, “I already know what you’re going to say.”

And I asked, “What am I going to say?”

And he said, “You’re going to say: ‘Good.’ ”

He continued, “That’s what you always say. When Something is wrong or going bad, you just look at me and say, ‘Good.’ ”

And I said, “Well. I mean it. Because that is how I operate.”

So I explained to him that when things are going bad, there’s going to be some good that will come from it.

Oh, the mission got canceled? Good… We can focus on another one.Didn’t get the new high-speed gear we wanted? Good… We can keep it simple.Didn’t get promoted? Good… More time to get better.Didn’t get funded? Good… We own more of the company.Didn’t get the job you wanted? Good… Go out, gain more experience, and build a better resume.Got injured? Good… Needed a bread from training.Got tapped out? Good… It’s better to tap out in training than tap out on the street.Got beat? Good… We learned.Unexpected problems? Good… We have to figure out a solutions

That’s it. When things are going bad: Don’t get all bummed out, don’t get started, don’t get frustrated. No. Just look at the issue and say: “Good.”

It won’t. But neither will dwelling on the problem. No. Accept reality, but focus on the solution. Take that issue, take that setback, take that problem, and turn it into something good. Go forward. And, if you are part of a team, that attitude will spread throughout.

Finally: if you can say the word “good,” then guess what?

It means you’re still alive.

It means you’re still breathing.

And if you’re still breathing, that means you’ve still got some fight left in you.

So get up, dust off, reload, recalibrate, re-engage – and go out on the attack.