i know im beatting dead horse, but does anyone have ideas to what could have happened to all the US Carriers?
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"those who speak of the glory of war, have never seen it," Gen. William Tecumsah Sherman

I would put them either at the bottom of the seas, or stuck in some port somewhere with no crew, no fuel, no ammunition, no jets, no food, and generally no operation. Some may have even been scuttled in shallow waters for much later reclamation when the resources were more readily handy.

All told, by the time of Twilight, I wouldn't have any carriers running around, as the major powers would certainly not want to let anything like that exist in an operational state.
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"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -- Adam; Mythbusters

Grimace

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Matt Wiser

Check back in the board's posts. About a year ago I posted some info on the USN in 2000: four carriers still afloat and semi-active. Two each in PACFLT and LANTFLT. One nuclear carrier and one conventional carrier in each. Add to that in a revised RDF air OB CVW-10 off of USS Independence (CV-62). The air wing still flies out of Bahrain, but the carrier is in port in Oman due to torpedo and ASM damage. (There's no drydock anywhere near to take the ship for repairs...) Caretaker crew still aboard, but most crew and all the air wing personnel reassigned to other duty with 5th FLT.

Matt Wiser

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shrike6

I think the only carrier (depending on your definition of carrier) mentioned canonwise is the Tarawa class Gator LHA-3 Belleau Wood which is still operational in the Persian Gulf. Although I could have sworn the Independence was mentioned somewhere.
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True peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice.

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Last edited by shrike6 : 11-17-2004 at 03:22 PM.

shrike6

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Matt Wiser

I mentioned USS Independence in my RDF air orbat revision. CVW-10 was their air wing, now flying out of Sheikh Isa, Bahrain (jokingly called NAS Bahrain by the Navy personnel there). The ship needs a drydock for repair of damage from a Type-65 torpedo and of a hit from an AS-4 Kitchen ASM. No drydocks left in the IO area....and none in the PG big enough to take the ship.

Matt Wiser

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recon35

Interesting point about the USS Independence (CV-62), though. If the reactors weren't damaged greatly by the hits, and we can assume they weren't, since the ship more or less made port, then that would be a resource worth recovering, regardless of the cost. Wouldn't centcom go out of its way to repair her? I know it would be difficult, but not anything that couldn't be overcome. After all, this area is about the only one that still has a steady supply of fuel, and machine parts (France) can be gotten. The operators of the reactors are still around, probably, as that specialization wouldn't be squandered by conversion to ground pounder. I would think this would be one of the top priorities in the theatre.

recon35

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shrike6

recon, I maybe wrong but I don't believe the Independence is nuclear powered, maybe Matt can clarify for sure.
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True peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice.

shrike6

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recon35

You know, you're probably right. I had gotten into my head it was a Nimitz class, but I have no resource material. In that case, nevermind...

Yeah, the nukes I guess are CVN.

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Last edited by recon35 : 12-09-2004 at 01:24 PM. Reason: add to

recon35

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Matt Wiser

CV is conventional power, CVN is nuclear powered. Any ship with N at the end of the designation (SSN, SSBN, CVN, CGN, etc.) has nuclear power. Fuel for Independence isn't a problem-she needs a drydock for repairs and there isn't one in the PG region big enough for her. (The FFGs, cruisers, and Belleau Wood can drydock-there are drydocks big enough in both Bahrain and Jebal Ali in the UAE.) But drydocking the carrier just isn't possible as of 1 Jan 2001
The damage isn't to propulsion, but one elevator is knocked out (by the AS-4 hit) and one rudder is jammed, along with a prop shaft blown out by the Type-65 torpedo (the ship's Nixie torpedo decoy worked-barely). Some internal flooding and shock damage as well.

Matt Wiser

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chico20854

Actually, there is a large drydock in Bahrain (more than) capable of docking the Independence - it was designed for supertanker repair. (see http://www.asry.net/). It is a graving dock - a large hole that can be pumped out. A conventional air or missile strike would not be sufficient to take it out permanently - you would need a tactical nuke or a very hardy and persistant chemical agent (fairly extreme environmental conditions there) to neutralize it. And I would guarantee that CENTCOM would dedicate its engineer assets to repair the dock and that the Navy would find some way to tow it to Bahrain (and the find the staff to replace dead shipyard workers). Availability of parts may still present a problem, but Centcom has oil to pay for parts...

So the Independence may sail again, if the GM wants it so!

-Chico

chico20854

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gstitz

Getting the graving dock restored would be a campaign, in and of itself.

I'm sure that the floodgates would have taken hits and been damaged, if not destroyed outright, meaning the whole dock would be flooded. If small ships were in the dock when it was hit, they might be on their sides, or sitting on the bottom flooded and rusting, so that's another undertaking, even after you get the dock itself repaired. (Probably blowing them up would be the best solution, but you still have to get all the pieces out). Of course, the damaged ships could be a source of scrap metal and/or parts. There might even be a ship or two UNDER the water, with everything above the water already cut up and carried away by the locals.

Then, you have to find, or create a new docking plan. The keel blocks have to be placed VERY precisely, both under the keel and at various spots along the hull. IIRC, a BOB-HOPE class LMSR (similar in size to a CV) requires five lines of blocks - 1 under the keel and two on each side. The blocks are 6+ feet tall, BTW (I've walked under the hull of an LMSR), so scrounging for that much lumber, in the necessary quality (not just quantity) could be tough.

Just a few thoughts.

Greg "Gunner" Stitz

gstitz

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Matt Wiser

Clearing the harbor itself isn't a problem: Bahrain had a few air attacks (SAF Backfires and Su-24s, with heavy cost to the attackers-more than a few Backfires and Fencers on the bottom of the harbor), getting the dock operational would be.Then there's the parts to get the carrier going-one rudder is jammed, one propeller shaft is wrecked, with flooding and shock damage. That can be fixed in drydock-if you have the parts and the shipyard workers at hand. Most of the ship is in good shape-there is a caretaker crew that keeps most ship systems going, even testing the catapults to ensure they work. Getting the parts might be a problem, though-unless CENTCOM decides to ship some extra oil to the perfidous French for a new shaft and prop....Or a check of Norfolk or Puget Sound Navy Yards for the parts and using a CGN as a cargo carrier...HM-14, as well as the Saudi minesweepers, did a good job in getting rid of SAF air-dropped mines. But you never know if they missed one...Everyone still uses the swept channels JIC.