This is a discussion on Quiz - Earn $10 within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; Here is a riddle from a game I played earlier.
I've been seeing poker through very differnt eyes lately, and working on strategies. Here's one that

Quiz - Earn $10

Here is a riddle from a game I played earlier.
I've been seeing poker through very differnt eyes lately, and working on strategies. Here's one that when I saw what was happening I had to take advantage of the situation.

Some background information, this was on the bubble for cash and final table, 2 tables left with 5 players each.

Look at my stack compared to everyone else. The average stack at the time was 27000.

Here are 2 hands where I softplayed. In 1, I folded from the SB with a pair against a crippled stack in the BB and the other I just called and checked to the river with a monster.

I did this deliberately. My logic for this will be explained later. There is a very logical explanation for why I did this. Many people will probably disagree with my reasons, however they are very valid.

There was a real strategic advantage as to why I did this and I would like to see if anyone can figure it out.

Why ?

Why did I do this when I could have knocked out both players and collected $4 in bounties in the process.

The person with the best answer will receive $10 in their full tilt account.

Hint: It has nothing to do with chip dumping or trying to help a friend get to the final table. I do not know these people, have never met them and never will.

Also in the hand involving the kings I am aware there was a possible straight looming, that had nothng to do with why I didn't bet out.

You wanted to keep the shortstack in so you could keep them all low, wear them down even lower, while they tried to ladder up.

As an added bonus people would respect your checkdowns

#3

17th January 2009, 1:35 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

I'll let this run till the end of the weekend.

I will not comment on anyone's answers but will only answer relevant questions to the situation.

#4

17th January 2009, 1:40 AM

dcor [308]

Online Poker at: stars

Game: holdem

Here is some of the logic that I can see.
1. I'm assuming you are the chip leader or in second or so.....
2. It's not your duty to take out the short stack.
3. If you did call, chances are the shorstack could have shoved.
4. You are about to be at the final table, and half of it just saw that you called a raise, checked kings preflop all the way to the river with a promising board. That ensures they will think about trying to put a move on you never knowing what you have....huge advantage at the final table.....
5. That being said from 4, people will be less likely to shove against hands you just called in, almost guaranteeing a flop will be seen which you can make better decisions from there which helps you finish higher in the tourney.....

#5

17th January 2009, 1:41 AM

sassy_sue299 [88]

Poker at: fultilt

Game: holdem

Well i was trying to think of a few reasons why,,,,,,one is alot of ppl like to push on the button to steal blinds,and to force bb to go all in,but I don't think you are doing that.So my next thought is,you were trying to see if one of the smaller ppl would push for the pot when you slow played it,so you could call them,and put them out.That doesn't fit much either,so then i was thinking you might want to sit back and let them take eachother out,since you were pretty good lead on stack that they might start going nuts,but since you guys were almost bubble,I Don't know,,,,,,,might need to come back on this lol,,dang i railed you alot lately,,and never picked it up You meany lol hiding tricks hehehe....tc and let me think on this,i might be close though

#6

17th January 2009, 1:43 AM

dcor [308]

Online Poker at: stars

Game: holdem

other response....you are a superuser and you saw that the bb had pocket qq and up......I think this is more logical than the post above

#7

17th January 2009, 1:44 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

re: Poker & Quiz - Earn $10

Originally Posted by sassy_sue299

Well i was trying to think of a few reasons why,,,,,,one is alot of ppl like to push on the button to steal blinds,and to force bb to go all in,but I don't think you are doing that.So my next thought is,you were trying to see if one of the smaller ppl would push for the pot when you slow played it,so you could call them,and put them out.That doesn't fit much either,so then i was thinking you might want to sit back and let them take eachother out,since you were pretty good lead on stack that they might start going nuts,but since you guys were almost bubble,I Don't know,,,,,,,might need to come back on this lol,,dang i railed you alot lately,,and never picked it up You meany lol hiding tricks hehehe....tc and let me think on this,i might be close though

When were you railing? sorry if I didnt notice, if it was earlier, I was playing an sng while writing this post and going through my hand histories to find it.

#8

17th January 2009, 1:46 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by dcor

other response....you are a superuser and you saw that the bb had pocket qq and up......I think this is more logical than the post above

bust

lol, good logic, but I promise you I'm not potripper

#9

17th January 2009, 1:48 AM

sassy_sue299 [88]

Poker at: fultilt

Game: holdem

omg you were in like 4 or 5 sit and goes.....all 10 +1......lol about 2 hours agoi was on ,,might even been three hours ago...then i started railing anther friend on ps knew you were busy,,and i had to cook super so couldn't stay to grab your attention

#10

17th January 2009, 1:53 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by sassy_sue299

omg you were in like 4 or 5 sit and goes.....all 10 +1......lol about 2 hours agoi was on ,,might even been three hours ago...then i started railing anther friend on ps knew you were busy,,and i had to cook super so couldn't stay to grab your attention

oh that was much earlier, yeah sorry had my hands full

#11

17th January 2009, 1:56 AM

sassy_sue299 [88]

Poker at: fultilt

Game: holdem

well all gl on the quiz :0 I am taking a bit of a break just got done railing for a few hours :0 and need a break...........will come back later to see who won glgl and tc

#12

17th January 2009, 2:18 AM

Nordling [3]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

you wanted to keep the short stack players at your table, so they wont represent much of a threat to you, because if you knock some of them out, a big stack player can be moved to your table and it will change the pace of the game, and you wanted to keep twice the average stack alive after the bubble

The reason why you played kings that way is is explained above but the benefit of doing that is to establish an unpredictable image for the other players and you will be tough to read, extra aggression will probably bring you some money later on if you start raising or re-raising with weaker hands, they will give you respect..

#13

17th January 2009, 2:21 AM

left52side [1,850]

Poker at: Bovada

Game: holdem

Hmmm,well i would say that,maybe your reasoning for the checkdown would be that you have the chips to burn down the clock so to say.
meaning there is the bubble and the slower the play the more of a chance for the bubble to break.
as far as folding to the crippled bb,why would you want to risk doubling them up at this point in the tourney,sure you coulda knocked them out but you coulda doubled them as well.

#14

17th January 2009, 2:24 AM

D'wilius [7,574]

re: Poker & Quiz - Earn $10

Oh I missed it was two tables of five. I don't reads good.

#15

17th January 2009, 2:48 AM

whiteboy [69]

Poker at: fulltilt

Game: holdem

you emphasized your stack size compared to the other players at your table, and mentioned the average stack size, so i calculated the average stack size at your table: $18081. this is much less than the overall average stack size of $27000. the thing that both of the hands have in common is that you had the opportunity to knock out both players, but you let it slide. clearly, you didn't want to knock anyone out because then you would have to play with the bigstacks.

#16

17th January 2009, 2:50 AM

SavagePenguin [7,596]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLH

Mike Sexton told a story once about (somebody? I forget who) who was on the bubble of a major tournament and stole blind after blind. Everyone was folding to him and he went from a relatively short stack to being tournament leader by stealing every hand.
Then someone shoved. He looked down and saw K/K, and called.
He told Mike that calling with K/K was a terrible mistake. He should have kept the other guy alive so he could keep stealing chips in safety.

His K/K held, the bubble burst, and then everyone started playing hands again.

I'd say that you were in a similar situation. You were accumulating a lot of chips risk free because you were on the bubble. Busting out anybody would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs because then people would start playing back at you because they were guaranteed a payout.

#17

17th January 2009, 3:13 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

So far I have read 3 replies that are in the right direction.

P.S. it has nothing to do with table image.

I shared the answer with one of the forum "elders" and while I made mistakes in what I did, the strategy was not far wrong and my thinking was right.

#18

17th January 2009, 3:17 AM

skoldpadda [3,544]

Online Poker at: 2-7, stud8

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

#19

17th January 2009, 3:42 AM

dg1267 [4,569]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLH

I was thinking towards skold's answer. So if he gets it right, just ship half of it to me.

And, if he's right, that's brilliant and something that wouldn't have crossed my mind in that situation.

#20

17th January 2009, 3:50 AM

TiltMonkey999 [310]

Online Poker at: FullTilt

Game: Holdem

you play slow..they push when they steal blinds you catch them..it could be as simple as that..but giving out 10 it must be a bit more complicated then i think..as the chip leader your job is to stay ahead of the pack..not to knock people out..when you have a high stack and low stack at the table..it evens out so that the tables with the chip stacks are even..if you knock them out to balance the table they send in more players with bigger stacks just a thought..but i dont know for sure haha

#21

17th January 2009, 3:53 AM

dweezel [393]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: cake

re: Poker & Quiz - Earn $10

In the first hand I can see folding there, It would have been a coin flip at best with the short stack and who wants to double him up at that point.

With the second hand you took some extra time at the river.were you thinking about a value bet ??? Showing your KK makes no sense to me. If it was to play a little head game with the other players its only half of the remaining players so it makes no sense and is beyond my comprehension . The blinds are about to hit the small stack again so your gonna be at the final table soon anyway. I think you missed a bet on the river.

I'm curious now........whats the motivation ?

#22

17th January 2009, 3:54 AM

TPC [3,600]

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

Damn, I was too late!!! I agree with skoldpadda, nice answer man!!!

#23

17th January 2009, 4:00 AM

dweezel [393]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: cake

Originally Posted by skoldpadda

you wanted to maintain POSITION so that by not busting out anyone at your table (they would all have incentive to make the final table and might be less likely to shove) your table would be final table --> the bigger stacks from the other table would then be on your right. This is a huge advantage to have at the final table and this +EV situation (more money goes to the top spots) would far outweigh the $1 bonuses you'd get by collecting the bounties. You'd then have a tremendous edge with position over the final table big stacks AND you'd still be able to steal from the smaller stacks on your left since they'd be trying to move up the pay ladder

SHIP IT

WOW I almost shipped you 10 bucks for that answer.
But how can you be sure the big stacks will be on your right ?? Isn't the seating random at the final table??

#24

17th January 2009, 4:56 AM

Styrofoam [609]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Holdem

The only thing i can see is that you, as the chip leader, wanted to build a bigger chip lead. The easiest way to do that is to prolong the two tables. You're not in any danger of being broke, so you let them keep going, so you can get more chips from the medium stacks. Besides that, if you're able to bust out one of the bigger stacks at the table, the final table is that much weaker. If postman goes out now, then you still have a person with a stack of 13,000. But if you bust out a bigger stack, then now you have a 3000 chip stack at the final table. Meaning you are more likely to finish higher in the money.

#25

17th January 2009, 5:18 AM

skoldpadda [3,544]

Poker at: 2-7, stud8

Originally Posted by dweezel

Isn't the seating random at the final table??

No, not if he stays at his current table. If you are shipped to the other table, then you are assigned a random open seat there.

#26

17th January 2009, 5:22 AM

silverslugger33 [451]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: HORSE

You are comfortable with the people that you are playing against. You feel you can build a big chip lead against them. Therefore, you would like to accumulate chips without actually busting them out, so you can have as big a chip lead as possible before beginning play at the final table. Since you are in an extremely comfortable chip position, there is no concern to you about making the money, because short of a huge blowup, you are guaranteed to do so. Therefore, you can take advantage of the short stacks that are just trying to make the money. Also, you have figured out that you are a stronger player than the rest of the table. As a result, you can wait for someone at the other table to be knocked out while you accumulate an even bigger chip lead at your table. By the time you get to the final table, 4 of your 8 opponents will be very short stacked players who you feel you are stronger then, which greatly increases your chances at actually winning the entire tournament which, when you are chip leader, is your goal.

#27

17th January 2009, 11:09 AM

riverboatrat [523]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

some very creative answers.

Some alot more correct than others.

keep going - this is getting incredibly interesting.

#28

17th January 2009, 11:41 AM

S93 [6,162]

Game: NL

re: Poker & Quiz - Earn $10

Im thinking the same reson as SP and Dw already posted.

as long as the bubble is still on every one will be super tight allowing u to pick up a lot of small pot and extend you chip lead even further.
I have done this in a STT where im the chipleader when where 3/4 handed and there is a sit out player(or just a super shortstack) in the BB when im in the SB,folding to him alows my to steal pots from other two villains who dont want to get into a hand when they know they can cash/move up the money ladder by just waiting for sit out to be blinded out.
If and when they finaly shove back at u,u can be farly sure they have a big hand and can easaily fold.

#29

17th January 2009, 12:30 PM

spranger [434]

Poker at: Stars

Game: NLHE/5CdDraw

you've already got enough chips compared to the rest of the table, you're fine with keeping all the players at your table in the game and letting the other table cripple itself.
if the other table loses a couple players they will form the final table at your table where you'll still have a relatively high stack, and a good read on the shotrstacks still alive.. easy money.

#30

17th January 2009, 12:51 PM

PokerPete [8,762]

Online Poker at: )ö:

Game: Holdem

You would really,really like a final table of nine players consisting of these four 1/2 or less average stack, yourself and 4 guys from the other table. The guys from the other table will come in with an average of 44.8K so there's an excellent chance that you'll be 1st or 2nd in chips once there.

These guys are so low M they'll be in shove or fold mode at the final table and only be playing top 5%s or blinds. The $4 means zip, nadda here. Going to the final with these four guys almost assures you of at least 5th and most likely top 3... and a very, very good shot at #1... and since the top 3 each payout >$100, and 1st pays out over $230 and the bottom 4 each payout< $50... it's very, very +ev to keep these guys in!

Plus keeping them in moves the other table to you!...and since there's three seats open to your right and only 1 to your left you'll have position on almost all the larger stacks from the other table... with only a 25% chance of the big stack (if your not it) landing to your left!

ITM.jpg
As the Guiness guy from the commercial would say: BRILLIANT!

#31

17th January 2009, 1:29 PM

riverboatrat [523]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

some people are getting warmer

#32

17th January 2009, 2:18 PM

Pothole [2,507]

Online Poker at: AP FT Titan

Game: RAZZ

The reason for not pushing in the 1st hand is 3 fold, 1/ it wasn't nessessary as you were table big stack anyway. 2/ you didn't want to risk doubling up a short stack. 3/ most important, you didn't want to take him out as then your table of 4 would have moved to a table of 5 and you would lose your position.
In the second hand the expected "value bet" after the river card wasn't made as you were not exactly sure where you stood. If you had bet and the other player had pushed thinking his 8 was good as you didn't reraise pre flop and checked it down, there was no way you could call with that board risking 20% of your stack.

#33

17th January 2009, 3:19 PM

Divebitch [3,131]

Poker at: FT-PS-CBN-BD

Game: Horse/Omaha

Originally Posted by dweezel

In the first hand I can see folding there, It would have been a coin flip at best with the short stack and who wants to double him up at that point.

With the second hand you took some extra time at the river.were you thinking about a value bet ??? Showing your KK makes no sense to me. If it was to play a little head game with the other players its only half of the remaining players so it makes no sense and is beyond my comprehension . The blinds are about to hit the small stack again so your gonna be at the final table soon anyway. I think you missed a bet on the river.

I'm curious now........whats the motivation ?

I agree with every last word here. First off, I believe Skoldpadda is correct. You'd like to see the your own table joined by the big stack to your right. And secondarily, stealing blinds from short stacks - but that's risky business, as they might call you or go all-in with decent cards. That said, here's my take...

Hand 1 - You obviously don't want to take out postman7, the smallest stack, or else 1) your table gets moved thus losing position 2) your new large-stacked table mates will be bullying all the remaining stacks that you could be bullying if you stay put.

Hand 2 - After spike800 raises to 3600, he's still got a stack of 7000. You missed an opportunity to value bet say 1200. If he calls and loses, at 5800, he's still not the smallest stack at your table. If he checked to the river, he might not even call a value bet, so perhaps a preflop small re-raise would've been better. As long as you don't mess with the postman, you're good. The blinds just passed him, and he's got over 2 & 1/2 orbits left unless the blinds go up sooner.

I could almost see not re-raising for fear of him going all-in. But 1) I don't think he will, because he's not on the bubble and 2) you can potentially win a huge hand, thus rendering you bully-proof at your new table. And it's quite possible that you'll even land a good spot at your new table.

Here's one bit of missing info... Is postman7 the shortest stack? Even though the chip avg at the other table is much higher than yours, one stack might be shorter than postman's. But if Postman is indeed the shortest stack, expect him to be going all-in soon, probably before the next set of blinds reach him. So, your missed opportunity might be all for naught.

Guess I'm not gonna see that $10.

#34

17th January 2009, 3:44 PM

pokerjdud [358]

Online Poker at: bodog

Game: omaha hi/lo

i think that all you did was prolong the final table bubble because you were benefitting from it rather nicely in the situation you were in. Being as everyone was playing rather tight at the time...versus when the final table hits those nine people will loosen up a whole lot.

#35

17th January 2009, 5:18 PM

dj11 [22,213]

Poker at: WPN

Game: Horse.

re: Poker & Quiz - Earn $10

My first reaction is that a new shipment of great drugs hit your town

Then I started reading the replies.

Skol's notion is something I've never considered, and him sharing that idea is marvelous. I will spend the next month thinking about that aspect of endplay.

SP telling a Mike Sexton story hit some resonance with me.

Please don't tell us when somebody else hits the true nature of YOUR decision making until the end of the weekend. Tons of new ideas here.

If you are thinking about any of these game control techniques, I send you kudo's, but then I have to wonder about that card dead aspect of the game that apparently you haven't hit yet. Always rotten to go card dead near the bubble

I have always played under the very possibly mistaken notion that it IS the responsibility of each player to take out other players in a tourney. It is in the nature of a tourney, however!!! The purposeful manipulation of how that happens is masterful.

You should probably start an in depth final answer now as the set-up here, and replies so far are going to require a masterful answer. BUT don't post it till the end of the weekend.