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The amount of fake news and leftist spin surrounding ‘Single Payer’ or ‘Universal Care’ is staggering. The vast majority of those who comment have never experienced shit. In fact, most people do not know that US already has socialized medicine. In 1975 the US implemented a law that provides dialysis for every person at no charge through Medicare. Anyone who is diagnosed with End Stage Renal Disease, whether you are 5 years old or 85 years old, is automatically qualified for Medicare and Disability. This covers 80% of all your medical costs and then there are other programs where you can get the 20% of your medical costs covered. The cost for doing this is a bit more than 2% of the total US annual budget. (For comparison, the Dept of Education entire budget is only 1% of the total; supporting dialysis is costing US tax payers twice what they are paying for education.)

I have a unique perspective, I get dialysis treatments with this socialized system but I get my cancer infusion treatments through the normal competitive system. It is a fucking night and day difference. The level of care absolutely sucks under the socialized dialysis system, it is abysmal compared to the competitive system. The reason is simple; the socialized system emphasis is totally and completely based upon patient ‘turn over’ and greatly reducing the patient to healthcare provider ratios.

At dialysis center, there are 40 chairs and treatments take about 4-5 hours. At the infusion center, there is 35 chairs and treatments take about 3-4 hours. At dialysis there is 2 nurses handling 40 patients, at the infusion center there is 13 nurses handling 35 patients. And with the extreme emphasis on productivity; the socialize dialysis system is ALL about ‘treat them and street them’. They are forced to rush through the medical care, it is basically a medical sweat shop. And due to this the dialysis centers across the USA have an employee turn-over rates that are comparable to that of McDonalds. When you spend 15-20 hours per week in these systems you get a good handle on how many mistakes and errors are occurring; I have documented as many 4 mistakes per week at the dialysis center but have never seen a mistake made at the infusion center. In either system, mistakes can be life threatening. When you are constantly training new healthcare employees more mistakes are made. And the level of morale of the care providers between the two systems is shocking and scary.

I cannot pseak to how socialized medicine is implemented in other coutnries but here in the USA it sucks. Anyone who supports socialized medicine ought to come sit in my shoes for a few weeks and see the difference between these two systems. It is hard enough for my wife to deal with me having cancer, but she is far more afraid that the socialized dialysis center will kill me first.
Eph

Weird to blame an entire system on a single dialysis center but ok, that absolutely does suck. I dunno though, I dated a chick who was in the air force and her (completely subsidized, socialized) tri-care was pretty awesome. On top of that, we moved my grandma to shreveport when she got too old to take care of herself in Albuquerque, and occasionally I'll run her to the dialysis place and I dunno, seems like you're just dealing with a really shitty one

I might even go further and suggest you look closely at Medicare and 1) the repeated efforts by a certain party to continually hobble it and de-fund it, as well as 2) the sort of regulatory concessions that a certain party has given, over and over, to these healthcare providers who lobby hard for profit-increasing laws and regulation at the expense of service or quality.

The Phase > what version of ssc are you guys running?
Criminal> idk whatever was on the first google result for "piece of shit spaceship game from 96 free download"

That is because unfortunately once you start giving out handouts it becomes harder and harder to take them away. Take social security for example. I don't know about you but I am pretty sure investing the money I pay into that would go much further in a IRA or 401k account, especially since Trump took office. Also your one story doesn't really jive with the dozens of people I know, Izor from this game, my wife etc who have had the worst fucking service with their VA healthcare.

I don’t need to go look at Medicare, I live with it every day. Your comment about blaming an entire system on one center reveals that you do not have an understanding about what you are talking about. I have been to 5 different dialysis centers but all dialysis in the USA is handed to one of two companies. Both companies have the exact same issues. They do not compete with each other, the marketplace has been setup so that they each share 50%. In VERY few local markets do patients have a choice. This is not available in 95% of the country, only the very largest cities have both companies available.

Interestingly enough, the level of care is higher (CMS stats) and number of reported issues (CDC stats) is much lower in those cities with competition between the two. The employees also average $3-$6 per hour more. So what are the rest of us patients think about that? Apparently major city patients are worth more than rural patients? Nice.

Each of these two companies gross around $11-12 BILLION per year; DaVita (the only one I can use) profited about $800 million last year. Yet there is one dialysis tech at my home center who has been there 18 years and she earns less than $35k per year. I have to bring my own Tegaderms (bandages) because they are too cheap and will only dress the port access with a piece of gauze and tape (which Medicare will cover). Nice.

And I am curious as to why anyone would hold up the VA as evidence of a good implementation of socialized medicine. People are dying waiting for care in that system. Who can point to any social program that Federal government does well?

For an understanding of wait times, simply Google this. In Canada the wait time for a CAT scan is measured in weeks and weeks; same for England. When I go to my oncologist, she has a Cat scan in her office and I can get one an hour after she orders it.

Seriously, people who talk about this really need to go through this shit before forming an opinion. Go put your life in the hands of a $35k per year caregiver with a bad attitude, or a caregiver who has zero experience and then tell me how great socialized medicine is.
Eph

That is because unfortunately once you start giving out handouts it becomes harder and harder to take them away. Take social security for example. I don't know about you but I am pretty sure investing the money I pay into that would go much further in a IRA or 401k account, especially since Trump took office. Also your one story doesn't really jive with the dozens of people I know, Izor from this game, my wife etc who have had the worst fucking service with their VA healthcare.

Social Security has made our country a much better place. Look at the statistics before and after. People in their old age had a hell of a go before it was created. It sent them all to destitute poverty in the twilight of their lives and for many was a death sentence. Also it isn't a hand out.. people pay for it. No way in hell i'd ever support privatizing it with these greedy bankers who abscond with trillions and go unpunished we have in the USA.

eph said.. [QUOTE]I cannot speak to how socialized medicine is implemented in other coutnries but here in the USA it sucks[QUOTE/]

We do not have socialized medicine here. We have private for profit health insurance companies putting their sticky fingers into everything. That is the difference and why Americans have such a wasteful spending system that costs us like over 5 times the cost of other countries and why we rank LAST in 1st world countries with it.

DOWN WITH THE INSURANCE COMPANIES !! THEY KILL PEOPLE!! SINGLE PAYER WITH OPTIONS FOR PRIVATE DOCTORS ON SIDE IS ONLY WAY TO GO IMO...

Sorry the system you are using sucks so bad though eph and I don't want to see you suffer and not be treated well. Slow and bad is better than none at all though when someone is facing such a serious health issue. The current system is infuriating I know sigh..........we all deal with it or have loved ones who are.

You do realize that we also didn't live through the depression and two global wars so most people have a chance to actually invest in their future at this point in the country.

And we create the cures and medicines and all the other countries get to use it, we front the ridiculous fucking cost while others don't. It is like the United Nations and Nato of Medicine you realize.

... We do not have socialized medicine here. We have private for profit health insurance companies putting their sticky fingers into everything. That is the difference and why Americans have such a wasteful spending system that costs us like over 5 times the cost of other countries and why we rank LAST in 1st world countries with it.

Seriously? You are simply wrong. I posted two examples of socialized medicine in the US; dialysis and the VA. I will repeat it for you, since 1975 ALL End Stage Renal patients are given dialysis treatments for free. We all go to one of two companies which get paid by Medicare. Since 1975 any kidney failure patient has had full, free access to dialysis services without any cost; all paid for by taxpayers. If that is not socialized medicine then explain to me what you think it is.
Eph

Hey Eph, you should have gone to London, they would have told you that there was no monetary sense to try to fix your cancer since you had a high likelihood of dying and forced you to stay there and die like Charlie Gard. Socialized medicine is the fucking awesomost man.,

This is NOT single payer and is still using for profit insurance companies to soak up costs in healthcare making it more expensive and less efficient. Sure the USA has some itty bitty sprinklings of socialism involved in healthcare for the VA and I will concede dialysis patients but it is being implemented totally wrong. We must get rid of health insurance companies. We don't need middlemen absconding with our money making profit on sickness and death. I suggest you do research into countries like Australia and how their healthcare system works. I know a girl who snapped her lower legbone femur in half , had to get surgury with rods and pins installed..she had rehab/the works.. Total cost out of her pocket was 15 dollars and she was rushed into surgery immediately. That makes americans do headspins and they can't even believe it and say it is a lie and impossible.. but it is what happens there and could be for every american too.

The VA is single payer, the government literally pays for it with our taxes and it is fucking garbage, it is terrible, and it is a disgrace. And keep in mind when some little girl in Australia has a simple surgery she goes there, but when the Australian PM needs a brain tumor removed, or to have advanced cancer care, he comes to the United States like all the other rich and powerful people in the world.

Sure Saudi Princes and Australian PM's come here. We have the best medical care in the world if you pay a cool million bucks. If you are an average every day joe though or a poor person.. no way in hell they can afford it.. This isn't about the rich .. it is about the people left behind.

Sure you can, if you have insurance lol. My mom died from Ovarian cancer but not before trying an experimental cancer treatment, a bone marrow transplant. Cost about 500,000 not including all the after care. Insurance covered it. Those evil insurance companies did what my dad had paid them to do its weird right.

This is NOT single payer and is still using for profit insurance companies to soak up costs in healthcare making it more expensive and less efficient. Sure the USA has some itty bitty sprinklings of socialism involved in healthcare for the VA and I will concede dialysis patients but it is being implemented totally wrong. We must get rid of health insurance companies. We don't need middlemen absconding with our money making profit on sickness and death. I suggest you do research into countries like Australia and how their healthcare system works. I know a girl who snapped her lower legbone femur in half , had to get surgury with rods and pins installed..she had rehab/the works.. Total cost out of her pocket was 15 dollars and she was rushed into surgery immediately. That makes americans do headspins and they can't even believe it and say it is a lie and impossible.. but it is what happens there and could be for every american too.

The issue is NOT insurance companies, it is a lack of competition. If the issue was the insurance companies than any segment of our society which used insurance would be screwed up. Ares auto insurance costs spiraling out of control? No. Do your home owners insurance cost climb every year by 50% or 75%? No.

When you have a car accident or a tree falls on your house what happens? You get three quotes and the insurance company pays the lowest one. If you are having a baby, do you get competitive quotes from the hospitals? No. Of course emergency situations are a bit different but the majority of medical costs in USA do not come from emergency procedures.

Here is how socialized medicine works in the US, it has NOTHING to do with insurance companies. The two dialysis provider negotiate with Medicare each year on how much they can charge for the services. They push for increases and try to justify their incredible profits, bad service and patient deaths. Medicare pushes back and does not give them what they ask for to cover what they deem the minimal patient care. So they have a set amount they can charge, end of story. With the amount they can charge set in stone, they only thing they can do is cut costs with less staff, less care. They have ZERO incentive to improve, they have ZERO competitive pressure for the patient market OR the specialized healthcare employees. The CEO of DaVita gave a speech to Harvard MBAs and compared his company to running a Taco Bell.

And it terms of total medical costs, do you know what attributes for over 1/3 of medical costs each year in the USA? The final few weeks of a patient life. That’s right, the incredible high cost of ECU care and other ‘life saving’ procedures that we attempt when your 85 year old mother is lying there dying. I can understand spending this on a 20 something person in a car accident of something, but why are we spending so much on elderly people? Give us some fucking morphine, let us die, stop trying to extend a highly questionable quality of life.
Eph

The issue is NOT insurance companies, it is a lack of competition. If the issue was the insurance companies than any segment of our society which used insurance would be screwed up. Ares auto insurance costs spiraling out of control? No. Do your home owners insurance cost climb every year by 50% or 75%? No.

When you have a car accident or a tree falls on your house what happens? You get three quotes and the insurance company pays the lowest one. If you are having a baby, do you get competitive quotes from the hospitals? No. Of course emergency situations are a bit different but the majority of medical costs in USA do not come from emergency procedures.

Here is how socialized medicine works in the US, it has NOTHING to do with insurance companies. The two dialysis provider negotiate with Medicare each year on how much they can charge for the services. They push for increases and try to justify their incredible profits, bad service and patient deaths. Medicare pushes back and does not give them what they ask for to cover what they deem the minimal patient care. So they have a set amount they can charge, end of story. With the amount they can charge set in stone, they only thing they can do is cut costs with less staff, less care. They have ZERO incentive to improve, they have ZERO competitive pressure for the patient market OR the specialized healthcare employees. The CEO of DaVita gave a speech to Harvard MBAs and compared his company to running a Taco Bell.

And it terms of total medical costs, do you know what attributes for over 1/3 of medical costs each year in the USA? The final few weeks of a patient life. That’s right, the incredible high cost of ECU care and other ‘life saving’ procedures that we attempt when your 85 year old mother is lying there dying. I can understand spending this on a 20 something person in a car accident of something, but why are we spending so much on elderly people? Give us some fucking morphine, let us die, stop trying to extend a highly questionable quality of life.
Eph

I did mean Adam Smith actually, been awhile since I studied any of this to be honest.

The problem in all of this is of course energy you know. People are pushing for a form of government that can't exist yet, pushing for rights that are feasible yet. We can't give everyone in the world free healthcare, we can't give everyone in the world a living salary where they don't have to work. We don't have the energy available to us yet to take the next step our civilization is ready to take. My point still stands on what I said originally. All forms of government eventually devolve into a select few in power having everything because it is human nature. But, I would say we have had a pretty good run so far here, as opposed to like well, certain South American countries.

What's weird here is that it's exactly this "we don't live in a world of infinite energy and resources" thing that has pushed me left.

For example: there aren't infinite jobs and there aren't infinite markets. At some point, economic growth will be impossible. At some point, employing everyone - even employing a majority of people - will be impossible.

Here's the cold hard facts that have me considering alternatives to capitalism:
-When America was "discovered" it was basically an empty continent chock full of resources
-As Americans colonized and industry sprang up, more people were needed since the continent was (virtually) empty
-Thus, wages rose to entice foreigners to come to America
-Population rises
-As this is all happening, innovation is 1) increasing individual worker productivity while 2) reducing the amount of workers needed for each new job (ie you might need 100 workers for a car factory in 1900, but by 1950 you only need 50 workers to produce the same output)

As far as I can tell, with the information at hand, I would say that around 1970, something happened never before seen in the US: the number of people finally eclipsed the number of jobs avaliable.

It's interesting to consider this because what would be some of the implications of this happening?
-Wages will stagnate. If there's more than enough people, you don't have to raise wages to entice them. If a worker doesn't like their wages, fuck em, you can hire someone else. https://i.imgur.com/xFKmPMg.png
-With wages stagnating, households need to increase their income. So what happens? Women, traditionally stay-at-home moms, begin entering the workforce.
-Knowing there's too many people, sentiments turn inward and nationalist, with hostilities being directed at foreigners. Sound familiar?

So how does the "system" keep going? CREDIT, BABY! After 1970, the average credit debt of households skyrocket. Yeah workers' wages had stagnated, but lifestyles were maintained with credit. Of course, at some point the creditors start calling in, and when the defaults happen, you see recessions, increasingly destabilizing recessions. So what does the data look like? Well, it's interesting to see the swings after 1970: https://i.imgur.com/HH7HuWG.png

A further point to explore is the fact that the united states is the ONLY capitalist country to experience a straight, 200-year period of growth accompanies by rising wages. Why? Since virtually every other capitalist country has never had such a streak I don't think it's capitalism. So we return to that initial fact: at its discovery, the continent was virtually empty and filled with resources. We experienced growth because capital needed labor, and wages rose correspondingly. We're past that now, and the heyday of capitalism is over.

Was it great? Hell yeah, did living standards increase? You betcha, but hey, even feudal serfs were better off than the slaves that preceded them, but that's no reason in-of-itself to have continued to perpetuate the feudal system.

I believe that if we keep relying on the same narrative and accepted ideas that have been at the heart of the American culture for over two centuries, we're gonna have a bad time. The material conditions of our society have changed, capital is no longer the magical life-improving system we took for granted between 1850-1970.

Last edited by Jerome Scuggs; 10-12-2017 at 03:24 PM.

The Phase > what version of ssc are you guys running?
Criminal> idk whatever was on the first google result for "piece of shit spaceship game from 96 free download"