But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music. If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.

Stewie. You are a better man than I am. You must have a boom shelter in your basement.

Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music. If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.

I have a 'gross misunderstanding' because you 'don't consider'...sorry, I fail to see the logic in your argument? Or am I simply expected to have faith in it?

The significance of religion comes from the impact it has on various societies, it's probably a bit more significant that music, but less so than politics. But, of course, non of these are inherently worthy of respect; if you're a member of the communist party, I'm not going to respect your political opinion, if you practice traditional or fundamentalist religion I'm probably going to react the same way. Sure, you have a right in our society to believe as you see fit, but I don't know where on earth these demands of 'respect' come from; the respect you get is the securing of your individual rights by society, but you're asking too much if you expect us to disrespect ourselves and our own beliefs by pretending your beliefs are reasonable and somehow beneficial.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I think we need to be careful that we respect the struggle many men have in maintaining purity of mind by our choice of words-please. Does not the Bible say there are some things which ought not to even be named among us?

"Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble,whatever things are just,whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-meditate on these things." Philippians 4:8

I think we need to be careful that we respect the struggle many men have in maintaining purity of mind by our choice of words-please. Does not the Bible say there are some things which ought not to even be named among us?

What is this 'respect' fetish everyone has today? Did you read any of my posts? Why is this worthy of some special respect?

Respect must be earned, it's not given to something just because someone else thinks it's special.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 10:16:36 AM by greekischristian »

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

No. You know, I always like to read your interesting, original posts, even when you express some views that are not quite mine (like that there is no difference for you between the Holy week and any other week - for me there is, I want to be obedient to my Church). You are a good person and an outstanding debater. I just did not want this exchange to turn into "ad hominems."

Respect must be earned, it's not given to something just because someone else thinks it's special.

I agree... to a point. But one must have the humility to be aware that we often see things from a biased viewpoint. My own opinion on whether something is or is not "earned" is just that... my opinion, and others will often disagree. I try my best to show respect to everyone at all times, whether I agree with them or not... it is a constant struggle, but I try.

where I come from and where I live, Orthodox Christians are a very tiny minority. If you don't have respect for other viewpoints, don't be surprised when others cease to have respect for yours.

Fortunately, where I come from religious people in general are a very tiny minority. In general they are not well respected and we really couldn't care less whether or not they respect us.

Quote

I agree... to a point. But one must have the humility to be aware that we often see things from a biased viewpoint. My own opinion on whether something is or is not "earned" is just that... my opinion, and others will often disagree. I try my best to show respect to everyone at all times, whether I agree with them or not... it is a constant struggle, but I try.

Respect is a subjective concept, if you want someone's respect you have to convince THEM that it has earned respect. Nothing is generally and objectively respectable.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Perhaps respect was the wrong term used in my post. I suppose the way I was taught was that as a woman I need to show love and understanding towards my dear brothers in Christ by, for example, dressing and behaving in a modest manner -so as not to stir up within them unnecessary passions. If we love one another we will provoke one another to "love and good works", not to sinful thoughts and actions. I appreciate this consideration when I receive it from others as well.

Perhaps respect was the wrong term used in my post. I suppose the way I was taught was that as a woman I need to show love and understanding towards my dear brothers in Christ by, for example, dressing and behaving in a modest manner -so as not to stir up within them unnecessary passions. If we love one another we will provoke one another to "love and good works", not to sinful thoughts and actions. I appreciate this consideration when I receive it from others as well.

We don't stir up passions because it's 'necessary', we do so because it's fun and, along with good food and good alcohol, is one of the things that makes life worth living.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Well, it looks like I may be in the same boat as you this year George!I have just returned from hospital!5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.Thankfully, Gwen (the elderly lady I look after) is in respite care for the Pascha.I've had morphine in hospital, and I will be on Panadeine Forte and Ibuprofen for the next few days!Isn't life amazing!Fortunately, I managed to light a candle for you at Holy Unction before all this happened!

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

GiC and Ozgeorge,I've noticed that both of you just adore a good debate. Has this always been a hobby of yours?( independantly, I mean. Obviously it is your hobby to debate on this forum ) Do you think that debating in a written format such as this is inhererntly different or the same as debating in person?

Logged

"This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."

We don't stir up passions because it's 'necessary', we do so because it's fun and, along with good food and good alcohol, is one of the things that makes life worth living.

I don't know... my priest is constantly telling me we are to strive towards a state of complete dispassion. And he isn't some evangelical convert, either. I always thought a certain amount of (appropriate) passion was good, but apparently I was wrong...

GiC and Ozgeorge,I've noticed that both of you just adore a good debate. Has this always been a hobby of yours?( independantly, I mean. Obviously it is your hobby to debate on this forum ) Do you think that debating in a written format such as this is inhererntly different or the same as debating in person?

Well, being on morphine at the moment, I really don't feel like debating- in fact life is wonderful and everybody's right! Seriously though, I love discussion more than debate, although I don't mind debate as a way of getting to explore a subject. The written format is actually much better, I think, because you have a record of what is said. On the down side, it lacks the nuances of speech and body language.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Well, it looks like I may be in the same boat as you this year George!I have just returned from hospital!5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.Thankfully, Gwen (the elderly lady I look after) is in respite care for the Pascha.I've had morphine in hospital, and I will be on Panadeine Forte and Ibuprofen for the next few days!Isn't life amazing!Fortunately, I managed to light a candle for you at Holy Unction before all this happened!

Lord, have mercy! Please get better soon, George. Thank you for the candle.

But I don't consider someone's religion to be equal to their political views or taste in music. If you do, you have a gross misunderstanding of what place religion must take in your life.

I know I am going to express this very poorly. Forgive me.This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc. The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation. In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together". I have made mistakes and wish that I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches. (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith. But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path. I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work. The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city, and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

Proverbs 18:19

Logged

We are always living God's future in a broken present, the Gospel is always a word of reconciliation from God's future spoken ahead of its time"

I know I am going to express this very poorly. Forgive me.This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc. The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation. In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together". I have made mistakes and wish that I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches. (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith. But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path. I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work. The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city, and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

Proverbs 18:19

Kaarina, you put that very well.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

I know I am going to express this very poorly. Forgive me.This is different than taste in music, political veiws, etc. The purpose of Marriage is mutual salvation. In fact, one of the unique things about Orthodoxy is the emphasis on "we are saved together". I have made mistakes and wish that I had been wiser in taking these things in to consideration before my husband and I ended up in different churches. (the decision was made with cool heads, mutual understanding, and respect...but that did not spare us the wedge it has driven between us).I can never forsake my Lord, and I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of faith. But sometimes even the right thing can be wrong when you put to much trust in your own wisdom and what seems to be the right path. I will never know if being more willing to trust that God would have been able to accomplish through Grace what I thought I could do by I could do by taking a stand and showing my commitment to choose Christ before all things.

Things may have turned out the same, but I know there was a little bit too much willfulness and pride on both our parts, and now we have more healing to do because of our unwillingness to give God more time and room to work. The Lord's Grace and Mercy is never exhausted and will cover even our mistakes and foolishness if we forsake our pride and humble our hearts. .

An offended brother is more unyielding than a fortified city, and disputes are like the barred gates of a citadel.

I have just returned from hospital!5 hours ago, I slipped walking down the stairs and hit my right flank and gashed my right elbow!Nothing is broken (thank God!) and the elbow only needed three stitches.

It is so belated reaction from me... Sorry to see this. Best wishes for getting well, OzGeorge. May God help your recovery.