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Final Exam – Navigating the SMP

You know, there’s really no substitute for graphs, and charts, and data plot maps. Human beings, being essentially a visually oriented species, see a graphic heads-up display, a God’s eye view as it were, as essential to seeing the forest for the trees. You may not like being on a budget at home, but show a guy a graph of where all his money goes in a month and he’ll feel better about not pissing it away for a peck on the cheek over the course of a couple weekends.

So it was with this in mind that I took it upon myself to plot out a chronology of the little known and far too under-appreciated sexual marketplace (SMP) we presently find ourselves experiencing (at least since the sexual revolution). Bloggers in the manosphere (as well as other self-impressed pseudo-feminist gender pundits) often use the SMP in a context which presumes that readers are already familiar with their mental model of it, and understand the dynamics of the modern SMP. Personally I think this presumption is fraught with individual bias, both intended and unintended. And make no mistake, I’m about to define the SMP and sexual market values (SMV) from my own perception, but I fully recognize the want for defining these dynamics in a clear, understandable format, so I’ll beg forgiveness for this indulgence.

Can I Graduate?

As some of you know it’s about graduation time for many high school seniors, and with that comes a lot of pontification from ‘adults’ who want to impart some grand words of wisdom to the next genration as they launch headlong into a future of student debt and/or dismal employment prospects. This is a special time for parents and childless adults alike to reflect upon their own lives and ask themselves “what would I tell my younger self to do differently?” and hope against hope that the 18 year old they feel compelled to cast in the role of their younger selves will tear themselves away from texting their friends about who’s going to get whom to buy their prom night liquor long enough for it to sink in. So you’ll have to forgive me for playing the professor here for a moment while I make the same vain attempt.

Not long ago I had a commenter tell me,..

“Rollo, I just wanted to say that your stuff has been truly groundbreaking for me. This material should be a graduation requirement for all high school seniors.”

Well, far be it from Dr. Rollo J. Tomassi, Professor Emeritus, to be so remiss in his sacred charge of educating the next generation about the perils of the sexual marketplace they would otherwise so blindly stagger into. Challenge accepted. So please gather round the podium, turn off all your cellular devices (prom night liquor’s easy to come by), take a sheet of notebook paper from your Pee Chee folder and prepare to take notes on,..

Navigating the SMP

Now class, if you’ll direct your attention to the display above (click on it for the larger version) I’ll explain the parameters of this graph. In the vertical column we have Sexual Market Value (SMV) based on the ubiquitous ten scale. Professor Roissy emeritus at The Chateau did us all the good service of elaborating upon individuated sexual market valuations for both men and women long ago, however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overal sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.

On the horizontal metric we have a timeline based on the age of the respective sex. I’ve broken this down into stages of five year increments, but with notable ages represented for significant life-to-valuation phase for each sex to be detailed later in our lecture. As an aside here you may notice I began the SMV age range at 15. This is intentional as it is the baseline starting point for the average girl’s midrange desirability value as evaluated by the average high school boy of the same age. Also of note will be the age range between 23 and 36 which represents the peak span years between the sexes, also to be detailed later.

In various contexts, women’s SMV is without doubt the most discussed topic in the manosphere. Try as we may, convincing a woman that her sexual peak lay actually between 18 and 25 is always an effort in debating denial. For all the self-convincing attempts to redefine sexual valuation to the contrary, SMV for women is ultimately decided by Men. Thus this bell curve is intended to represent the sexual value of women based on men’s metrics, not as women (by way of ceaseless social engineering) would like to define desirability. Please see the Myth of Sexual Peak and Sexy for cross references.

As we continue along you can see that the peak years for women’s SMV tops out at around 23 years. Fertility, desirability, sexual availability and really overall potential for male arousal and attention reach an apex between 22 to 24 year of age. Remember this approximation isn’t an estimate of personal worth or character, or any metric beyond a baseline of desirability invoked in men. Ladies, on average, this is your best year. I don’t think I’m relating anything the cold truth of your hindbrain hasn’t woke you up at night over.

At no other phase in your life will you enjoy more affirmation or legitimate male attention more zealously applied for your sexual approval than this brief stretch. Once past the apex, every effort you spend on generating male arousal cues will be in trying to recapture the experiences of this phase. Every post-apex, pre-Wall (24 to 30) calorie you burn will be motivated by the memories of your SMV peak.

By the age of 27 women’s SMV decline has begun in earnest. That isn’t to say that women can’t remain stunningly attractive and vivacious in their post-peak years, but comparative to the next crop of 22-23 year olds, the decline progressively becomes more evident. Competition for hypergamously suitable mates becomes more intense with each passing year. The age’s between 27 and 30 are subliminally the most stressful for women as the realization sinks in that they must trade their ‘party years’ short term mating protocol for a long term provisioning strategy.

It’s at this point that rationalizations of ‘living a new life’ or ‘getting right with herself’ begin to formulate; not as a result of guilt per se, but rather as a function of relieving the anxieties associated with the new reality that she will eventually no longer be able to compete effectively in the SMP. The writing’s on the Wall; either she must establish her own security and provisioning, or settle for as acceptable a provider as her present looks will permit to secure his long term provisioning.

Men

It may seem dismally pessimistic to begin boys SMV at so low a starting point at 15, but recall that we’re looking at overall averages. A 15 year old girl will look at an 18-20 year old man’s sexual approval as more valuable than that of her same age peers. It’s not that notable boys’ attentions are worthless, but they are far more mundane to a mid teens girl, thus the evaluation starts much lower.

As men age you can see that their SMV tends to level off during their 20’s with a gradual rise up to age 30. This represents men’s slow build SMV as they become more valuable by metrics of physical prowess, social gravity, status, maturity, affluence, influence, and hopefully dominance. It’s a slow process and unfortunately, of a man’s significant maturing to his SMV, most of it occurs while women are reaching their own SMV peak. At age 23, while a girl is enjoying her prime SMP value, a man is just beginning to make his own gradual ascent.

By age 36 the average man has reached his own relative SMV apex. It’s at this phase that his sexual / social / professional appeal has reached maturity. Assuming he’s maximized as much of his potential as possible, it’s at this stage that women’s hypergamous directives will find him the most acceptable for her long-term investment. He’s young enough to retain his physique in better part, but old enough to have attained social and professional maturity.

Comparative SMV and the Peak Span Years

One important note here is to compare men and women’s SMV decline. Women’s SMV being primarily based on the physical, has a much more precipitous decline than that of men’s. who’s decline is graduated upon a declining capacity to maintain his status as well as his health / looks. Since a man’s SMV is rooted in his personal accomplishments, his SMV degradation has much more potential for preservation. Women’s SMV burns hot and short, but men’s burns slow and long.

Now class, please address your attention to the critical 15-16 year span between a woman’s peak SMV and that of men’s. It should come as no surprise that this span is generally the most socially tumultuous between the sexes. The majority of first marriages take place here, single-motherhood takes place here, advanced degrees, career establishments, hitting the Wall, and many other significant life events occur in this life stage. So it is with a profound sense of importance that we understand the SMV context, and the SMP’s influence as prescribed to each sexes experience during this period.

At age 30 men are just beginning to manifest some proto-awareness of their sexual value, while simultaneously women are becoming painfully aware of their marked inability to compete with their sexual competitors indefinitely. This is the point of comparative SMV: when both sexes are situationally at about the same level of valuation (5). The conflict in this is that men are just beginning to realize their potential while women must struggle with the declination of their own.

This is the primary phase during which women must cash in their biological chips in the hope that the best men they can invest their hypergamy with will not be so aware of their innate SMV potential that they would choose a younger woman (22-24) during her peak phase over her. I wrote about this in The Threat:

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The confluence between both sexes’ comparative SMV is perhaps the most critical stage of life for feminine hypergamy. She must be able to keep him ignorant of his SMV potential long enough to optimize her hypergamy. In men’s case, his imperative is to awaken to his SMV (or his potential of it) before he has made life-altering decisions based on a lack understanding his potential.

Every man who I’ve ever known to tell me how he wished he’d known of the manosphere or read my writing before getting married or ‘accidentally’ knocking up his BPD girlfriend has his regret rooted in not making this SMV awareness connection. They tended to value women more greatly than their own potential for a later realized SMV peak – or they never realized that peak due to not making this awareness connection.

Well, I’m afraid that’s all I have space for today class. I hope this brief intensive has given you some food for thought as you enter a feminized world legally and socially dedicated to the benefit of optimizing hypergamy. Just remember, as you see your illustrious manosphere instructors gazing proudly from the gallery in our professorial caps and gowns, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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232 comments

I’ve banged women 37-39 who have great bodies, faces, look and dress outstanding and when compared to Western women of equal or even slightly younger, well, Asia women are incredible…when they take care of themselves.

So I wonder if there are exceptions to this idea of SMV declining for women after age 30 or is there some cultural dynamic that can adjust the bell-curve?

I have 2 long distance gals in the rotation who are my age, are still beautiful, are submissive in nature and domestic in needs-providing, and absolutely love masculinity in men. They are so outside of the bell curve that it almost feels unnatural at times.

Some of my Chicago-area gal pals in their late 30s are still relatively good looking, but they’re so fucked up in the head as to be not just undateable, but unrailable,.

The one thing I’ve told young men for over a decade is this: gain a social talent, don’t spend money on toys, save your cash and look for small local business niches to invest in.

The few who have listened to me have skipped the nightmare of dating bar skeeze BPD sluts with diseases, and have matured into confident and high SMV men.

The right time to get a son to swallow the red pill totally is the day he discovers masturbation. To think that fathers have failed their sons for so many decades, it’s no wonder that so many guys are still boys at 30 — with no prospects whatsoever.

I’m 38, and I’m definitely at the peak of my SMV. The greatest part of being there is that the women who are subpar (or worse) scream and holler at me whenever I go out with a younger, firmer, prettier, sexier girl instead of them.

Someone needs to publish a guide for 15-18 year old males, specifically teaching them this philosophy alone. Imagine the success an above average teen can reach if they skip the girlfriend and focus on the long game.

Great post. For a long time, I’ve been looking for a good introductory page for young men to compliment the 16 commandments of poon, providing more context than instruction. This one will serve nicely in that capacity.

To expand this conversation, I’d like to suggest the idea that men’s SMV is more variable than women’s. For example, notoriety and good health can extend a man’s peak into a long plateau that may last well into his 40’s and even 50’s. Even in the general population of men, there’s a greater level of diversity in the average age of peak for men than in the average age of peak for women. This reflects the fact that SMV value for men has more variables and inputs: social status, charisma, income, health, etc, whereas for women, SMV value is defined almost exclusively in physical terms.

So for men, one man might peak at 34, another may peak at 44. In contrast, few women will truly peak out before 22-24, and women almost never get hotter after 23-24, unless they lose a bunch of excess body fat, and even then they’ll not reach the highs they could have reached at 23-24 if they weren’t fat then. There are, as A.B. pointed out, a few women who have a longer, flatter decline curve. These women are not the norm in the US, though I have noticed this pattern is more common in cultures where fatness is rare, e.g. French, Italian, etc.

One of the biggest ironies in the SMP is the concept of “trading season” for women. This is when, in their late 30s, women decide that they can do better and aren’t haaaaappy in their marriages. Divorce ensues but hilarity does not, especially for the kids. Here’s a wee post of mine that covers it with a humorous video clip:

AB, Your advice is spot-on. It would have been amazing at age 5-25 to have a mentor and guide for business acumen as well as female relations. Yet, even for men who’ve made mistakes early on, it’s almost never too late to right the ship.

Regarding the book idea, a guide for teen boys–I was in desperate need of such manly advice at that age. Using your benchmark of masturbation as the time to onset the red pill, my dad would have had to start dispensing red-pill knowledge when I was 4-5 years old I started early. It would have been great even as a teenager to get that knowledge. Unfortunately, since I didn’t get that guidance early on, I don’t know that I would have been able to receive that knowledge as a young man, being clouded by the haze of testosterone-fueled teen angst.

Finally, see my post below, but I don’t believe that at age 38, you have reached a peak that can’t be surpassed in the next 3-5 years, provided your health, game, and financials are all continuing to advance. The one thing that may be a limiting factor is the young female receptivity to older men, but in my experience, there’s a significant cohort of young women who have the gene to tingle for older men. For that, I am continually blessed.

I spent the last 2 years shedding my body fat from when I was in my 20s (I was obese as fuck when I was married).

Now I’m on a 12 week LeanGains recomp and the difference after 4 weeks is stunning. I have guy friends in their mid-20s who can not believe the difference in my physique, and I can openly see the difference with younger females (even though I’m not getting huge, just cut).

The testosterone boost from doing squats once a week is evident in my sex life — I’ve always been able to go long and repeat the deed a few times in an evening, but now it’s just a constant hum in the background, versus only really appearing when a gal was hot and showed me a lot of physical interaction.

On top of that, my outward style is better (not sure if it matters, but good clothes is a way for shy girls to open you in public), and my walk and gait are superior to where they were 5 years ago (I’ve been complimented on that more this year than ever before).

Will I get better in 5 years? I’m not so sure — with all the gains and improvements, I still can feel a tiredness I didn’t feel before. I regularly play aggressive frisbee with guys 15 years younger than me, I go surfing regularly, and bounce around the local playground’s monkey bars, and exhaustion hits me in new ways.

Still, I don’t have to be athletic to have a superior SMV to the guys in my direct market, but part of my character/personality is that of a physically directed guy. I’d hate to see that disappear, hence why I started the LeanGains program and try to stay twice as active as I did just last year.

I should mention that my dad was 50 when he met and impregnated his current wife (she was 19 or 20 at the time) — and he’s not Mr. Wealthy Sugar Daddy — so there’s some genetic history to my increasing SMV over time.

But what about Mr. Bathroom grouter? It’s nothing more than naive to say that *all* men peak late – Mr. Grouter probably peaked in Hs.

For your answer I will defer to my esteemed colleague Professor Roissy and his magnum opus The 16 Commandments of Poon. Your answer in bold.

XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

Don’t know much about leangains, but I do remember you saying that you eat meat and veggies. I have read that some people thrive on this (we are currently doing this as well with some dairy mixed in) and that others, especially those that work out hard need more carbs for energy. Obviously you don’t want to go the bread route, but sweet potatoes, roasted beets, fried taters, etc might help your energy levels.

Honestly this peak you guys all go on and on about seems just like hitting the first career high point. Ie the age my father finished specialization in his discipline in medicine, also the age many people get corporate promotions to greater leadership positions.

To this extent, you should really add a caveat that this peak is relative to the individual male. I doubt those unemployed in late 20s early 30s are really enjoying their situation ATM.

Great chart, but what we need to see next to it is a chart that outlines western women’s PERCEIVED smv. These chicks think they are fabulous well into their 30’s and even 40’s and with the goal these days being sex instead of commitment there are no shortage of men who are willing to prop up this artificial value by banging a cougar.

1) Women’s SMV would start out much higher at age 15-16 if our culture and laws weren’t set up to artificially raise the age of consent.

2) You are spot on about a man’s SMV peaking around age 38. If the ability to nail hotter, younger, tighter pussy is indicative of a male’s SMV that would put me right square in that range cause I banged the youngest and the hottest ass between the ages of 34-39. The hottest I ever had was when I was 38. The youngest relative to my age I had when I was 39 (she was 22).

And as another poster mentioned men have the potential to hold a plateau for many, many years beyond that. When a woman is young the world is her oyster, but a man who can hold out for the payoff, maintain his free agency, and maintain whatever he has that makes him attractive he can enjoy a much longer and more productive sexual life than a woman. This falls in line with my theory that a man’s value can be exponentially higher than the highest value female on the face of the earth. A true high value man can command the sexual resources of ten supermodels. Or more. And no woman on the planet has the ability to command the full resources of ten high value men.

Great article. I had a response, but I want to edit it down, as there are some ideas I want to throw out there, plus personal experiences which confirm a lot of this.

Off topic, I suppose, but my sister is 20 years old, and as of late has been coming to me for advice on relationships, on guys, on girls, on social dynamics, on figuring out what she wants, why she feels a certain way about a guy who acts like X but does Y, etc…

What advice can I give her regarding relationships beyond what I know from experience, and from blogs like these, and are there any articles, websites, books, essays, blog-entries, or posts you, CH, Dalrock, or anyone have written which could be beneficial for her to read?

She’s an extremely intelligent and beautiful young woman, and I’ve enlightened her on many a thing when it comes to this area of life. I should add that compared to every girl I’ve known (save one or two), and of all her friends, she’s by far the most grounded, the least….easily swayed (she’s not a slut; i.e., her best friend on a given weekend will hook up (sleep with) with two dudes, whereas she’ll maybe hook up with (in her eyes make out) one guy she wants to date…but without a doubt she still displays every trait & complaint of a contemporary girl her age. She first came to me a few weeks ago with the whole “why are all guys assholes, I just want a nice guy” trope, and I broke it (her hamster) down for her, and she has been wanting more and more answers since, cause as I explain this stuff to her, and she recognizes it in herself, she’s making cognizant, and positive changes/ decisions. And easily recognizing the distinction between dudes who are wastes of her time from those who aren’t.

What do I tell her, what should she know? She agrees with almost everything I’ve learned from both experience and these blogs, that I’ve talked to her about, however much she doesn’t like to hear some of it, and since then has been coming to me for advice.

What say you?

Also, so someone can say good job to me, if they are so inclined (as of now my only support has actually been the 3 or 4 people who responded to my comments on the previous post of yours), I’ve managed to, after drinking after being sober for a few weeks, or the “relapse” I had a week ago from the break up, back to having 3 or 4 days sober, which considering the BPD break up is a huge deal for me and this shit has been exceedingly difficult. I’ve been drinking daily for 7 or 8 years, this last year consuming around 200 units of alcohol a week. No joke, I did the measurements. It’s a wonder I’m alive.

Regarding that, anybody know of any non AA places one would recommend I go to to for support or even just some reading I may not have stumbled upon through google (even if it’s not about drinking, but about living a better life)? I am adamantly against AA – so again, nothing AA or 12 step. Essentially it’s a government sanctioned corporate cult, with heavy ties to the pharmaceutical/ medical community/ industry, bearing an extremely shady & hilarious history backed by pseudo-religious affiliations, and affirmed by brainwashed members who rival Scientologists in denial and loss of self; group-think psychobabble written like a self-help book for the homeless of 60 years ago (pre-AA 7-step Oxford group which AA comes from would use Alcoholics turned sober who found their higher power as proof their process worked – of course for show, they’d always go drink after money rolled in from donors and a new alcoholic to save was found.

No offense to any readers who “fake it ’til they make it”, or any who are fans of L.Ron. Kool-aid tastes great for some. I think I’m going to just make my own wordpress, that way I can write as much as I want without strangers having to read this upon waking rants of mine which I am so inclined to indulge in.

It’s just so hard to stop typing when you’re [somewhat] anonymous and have had 4 cups of coffee. Again, good day.

Physiological prime is not the same as social prime. Male attractiveness is far more connected to social status, charisma, social proof, and personal power than it is to raw physiology.

In addition, raw hormone numbers do not tell the story. Men in their 30’s through 60’s maintain elevated testosterone, AND cellular sensitivity to testosterone increases. Mitochondria, the cellular power plants, continue to increase in number well into the 40’s. The best triathletes in the world are in their 40’s, because it takes that long to build power and stamina over time in several domains to get good at triathlon. LIfe is like that–a mixed-modality distance race. Men have the advantage, and that advantage peaks with experience, probably some where in the 40’s.

Fortunately, you don’t have to believe this now, Cyrus. Time will prove it to you. I’m 37, never felt better or stronger. I was pretty damned good at 24. I’m better now in just about every way, including and especially with pulling chicks. I was with a super hot 29 year old last night, and two nights before that, a smoking hot model, 24 years old, grad student. Yeah. Anecdotes do not data make, but empirical evidence is the foundation building better hypotheses.

Your friends mentioned it gets harder after college. This is because it’s now a much more diverse market. College women now can pick from a much larger cohort of men. Whereas in college, the market is pretty constrained to just college men. It’s only harder because they’re inexperienced and probably uncharismatic. I can tell you, I’m cleaning up, and I know AB Dada is too.

Without explicating my many previous sexual exploits, if 38 is going to be my prime (considering I get my act together and move beyond what problems I’ve created/ had heaped upon me, & overcome the many obstacles I know lie ahead; which I am determined to, & thus I will), I won’t be surprised if I become an Apollonian Marquis de Sade of Byronic sorts. So at 23, when I thought I’d long past my prime, I now have much to look forward to, and a newfound hope. The journey has only just begun. Onward and upward.

AB, that’s funny, you and I have a sort of reversed history with money/fitness. I was rail thin/ripped throughout by teens & twenties, but was living check-to-check, more or less broke, with bad spending habits to boot. Now I’m still fit, but more bulky (paleo + lifting heavy), but finally getting my business & financial acumen where they should be.

I find the business thing doesn’t do much for short-term prospects, but when engaging a potential LTR, the mid-to late-twenties ladies vet hard for financial viability. So I’m doing well in the short game, but I know that I need to focus on checking green to get my long game on par with my short game. It’s coming along, but I’m noticing that my short term dating interests to some degree compete with my business plans for attention. That’s changing, and as long as I stick with my plans, I see nothing but growth ahead for my SMV for the next 4, 5 years at least. As Jay Z said, 42 gon’ be better than 24.

You have NO idea. When I was younger my dad told me that a man’s 30’s are the best time of his life. Didn’t realize what he meant until I was well into mine but he was right. At 23 you’re still a pimply faced kid. Figuratively speaking of course. When you hit your 30’s you will hit your stride. Stay in decent shape and you can land women in their sexual prime. I dated a 21 yr old when I was 31, a 20 yr old when I was 34 and I nailed the 22 yr old when I was 39. Not to mention a few mid to later 20’s chicks in between. When you reach your mid to late 30’s your pool of women expands tremendously. Early 20’s to however high you want to go. Don’t sell yourself short. Work on building yourself into the person you want to be and everything will fall into place.

Rollo, I wanted to say that I read the essay you linked to, where you discuss morality and sex. Actually, I agree with the thrust of what you say, that sex need not always have great existential meaning and that it can simply be a pleasurable experience. However, I still think even such pleasurable experiences need to be rooted in a more stringent ethical matrix, for reasons that I’m sure that you can guess at (We simply disagree). However, I did also want to say that I was probably unfair regarding your blog over at Dalrocks, focussing as I did on a few essays too much to the exclusion of others where you have good things to say, I think. Although I think the concern that I alluded to at Dalrocks is a legitimate one – namely that in criticizing the sinfulness of women we can eventually become blind to the sinfulness of men – it was wrong for me to just indirectly trash your blog, which I did. For that, my apologies.

However, you do make a good point about after college, and I have to agree. From about age 21 until 28 I had it much harder than I did from 17 to 21. Mainly because it was harder to meet girls easily, where-as in college, I met new girls all of the time.

Having said that, now at the age of 37, I cannot tell you how many girls are constantly checking me out, hinting, making moves. Hell, I just had yet another 20 something married girl throw herself at me a couple of weeks ago while on a business trip.

The problem is, you are equating the amount of testosterone in a man’s system as being completely in line with a woman’s attraction to a man. You are forgetting two other very important points in that equation. Status and money. Something often not achieved by men until the mid 30’s.

No worries. I’ve written so much for so long that it’s sometimes easier to just link people unfamiliar with my work to past articles. However I suppose I can’t expect readers to be familiar with my stuff at SoSuave or the 187 posts I have here.

Feel free to browse my archives. I think you’ll see we’re more alike than not.

It can be hard to make friends with other couples when they view the age difference as odd/threatening. I don’t have a solution, actually, but it will get easier over time when the difference isn’t as obvious.

I’m somewhat skeptical about the male graph. I’m 28 now. I’m sure when I’m 38 I’ll be more accomplished and nominally higher status. I can’t imagine I’m going to be more physically attractive. Same goes for my peers. About half of us will be bald by then, for chrissakes.

I’ve been telling my friends for a long time the same thing- don’t get married before 30 unless you can definitively say yes to 5 questions.
(1) Would you be satisfied having sex with this woman the rest of your life? (Don’t marry a prude unless you are a prude) (also don’t marry a 6 if you want only 8s)
(2) Are you certain this woman has a high enough libido to satisfy you for the rest of your life? (Don’t marry a once a week girl if you’re a once a day guy) (also take her current libido and divide it by a third- is that enough?)
(3) Does this woman sincerely support your goals in life and will help you achieve them? (No explanation needed)
(4) If you want children, can you actually see this woman feeding them, picking up after them, cleaning diapers, and managing a household?
(5) Are you marrying her because you want to spend the rest of your life with her, or are you marrying her because you are afraid of spending the rest of your life alone?

I guess #5 isn’t a yes/no. I don’t have any problem with getting married early, per se. You just need to be sure that the girl you’re marrying is going to be the wife you want. Whether that’s just a hot piece of ass, or a great mother to your children, or a sexual dynamo, all three, w/e. Just make sure that she’s actually capable of being that wife. Too many men, even at their peak SMV, don’t consider whether the girl they marry will be the wife they want to go home to. In my experience, higher SMV only matters if you wise up and be more selective (in terms of finding a wife that will be the wife you want). Otherwise you’re just getting a hotter, but still unsuitable mate.

“I’ve managed to, after drinking after being sober for a few weeks, or the “relapse” I had a week ago from the break up, back to having 3 or 4 days sober, which considering the BPD break up is a huge deal for me and this shit has been exceedingly difficult.”

Congrats dude, cutting out alcohol is hard as fuck! Fuck AA and psychobabble feel-good stuff, here’s some cold hard logic to appeal to your Man Brain (lol) that might help you. All 3 of these videos are just dropping solid logic and relate alcohol to pickup, women, socializing, etc.

Short 5 minute video here, Brad is just getting over a phase where he was binge drinking like crazy so this first video is explaining how he realized he was in a trap:

And in this longer video Brad goes into more depth explaining techniques he used to help “trick” himself out of drinking and how it helped him notice and fix sticking points in his game and how he weaned himself off of drinking by ordering waters with his beer etc. and just the psychological stuff he ran into:

Tyler hasn’t drinken or done drugs pretty much his entire pickup career (10+ years). He’s reframed struggling with social pressure and being out of state and not drinking as “an opportunity to learn to fight your way out of it”. Essentially he embraces the challenge as an opportunity for self-improvement/development instead of fighting it:

This is Tyler doing a 30 min non-judgemental overview of the actual benefits and problems with drinking/drugs with relation to pickup and socializing and how his nights out differ from his friends who drink and the pros/cons of both sides:

I myself had reasons to stop drinking for about a year and I’m cutting it out again this summer. Some stuff I’ve found:

1) It’s just as hard to cut drinking out/down now as it was the first time I did it lol All the psychological crutches drinking comes with are back in full force. Kind of frustrating but hey, test of willpower and all that shit right?

2) Social pressure is a huge reason it’s hard to stop. Being at a bar with no drinks in your hand feels strange, friends offer you drinks or make fun of you for not having one in your hand, you feel like the bartenders and bouncers can all tell you’re not spending money at their bar, you feel akward going up for yet another water especially when it’s busy, etc. etc. All of these things aren’t actually a big deal but your brain will tell you they are.

Your friends will want you to drink with them, but if you can hold your frame that you don’t drink anymore (blame your breakup or hell, lie and say it’s “doctor’s orders” or something), eventually they just accept the new you and stop bugging you about it. It’s sort of like a girl shit-testing you lol Stronger frame always wins eventually.

3) Having alcohol available is a bad idea. If you suck at not spending your money, put your credit card in a block of ice. If you suck at dieting, don’t stock your cupboard with junk food. If you need to cut down on drinking, don’t have any alcohol in your house. Try showing up to pre-drinking later than everyone else so you don’t have time to down a case of beer before going to the bar.

4) If you can go a solid month or two without drinking and still be approaching girls and socializing, it starts to not feel like as big a deal. The fucked up part is that if you do it for a few months, it actually feels weird TO drink. When I was like 6 months into going out regularly without drinking, my mind had actually started to view bars as not related to alcohol. Instead of thinking “What do I want to drink tonight? Rum or beer, hmmm” my brain would think “What do I want to drink tonight? Water or cranberry juice, hmmm” It’s pretty trippy and sounds hard to believe and I was surprised by it myself.

5) Approaching and talking to 3-5 girls will give you the same buzz as having a few drinks in you. It’s that same “I’m loosened up and feeling chatty and charming and confident” buzz you get from alcohol (before the “I’m hammered and slurring my words and stumbling” stage lol). There are psychological reasons for this but they’re not really important to understand.

6) If you can get to a stage where you aren’t drinking all the time, daygame becomes easy as shit. If you can stand up to the social pressure of being in a bar or around buddies and not be drinking, handling daygame is a cakewalk because none of that pressure is there. It’s like running around with weights on and then taking them off.

7) You’ve spent 7-8 years creating a lot of anchors and dependencies and crutches and gaining reference experiences related to drinking that WILL be hard to wean yourself off at first. You’re trying to undo years of wiring in your brain. But you’re a man, so you’re capable of doing it. A woman will often keep up her self-destructive habits and her hamster will just rationalize them away each time. And most of your friends are probably similar. But you’re a man looking to improve yourself, so you’re capable of logic and self-discipline. If someone said they were going to kill your sister if you ever had another sip of alcohol you’d go “Oh, okay, then I don’t drink anymore. That’s just what’s happening, done.” You’re capable of making logical decisions like that, once your brain has decided drinking isn’t something that benefits you, you won’t do it anymore.

Good luck dude! I swear once you’re on the other side it’s a lot easier and feels a lot more normal and healthy, and you get a sense of pride because you learn to have fun and socialize and get laid without the crutches everyone else depends on and you know you got there all by yourself through your own willpower and determination which is pretty bad-ass.

A lot of people around you won’t be able to relate to what you’re trying to do because they all NEED the crutches. Tell a guy who drinks whenever he’s at a bar to try talking to a girl at a bar without being drunk or having a drink in his hand and he won’t even be able to imagine doing it. But those are normal people, not guys who read the Manosphere and want to improve their lives. 🙂

Start a WordPress blog and blog about your nights out. It can help force you into a self-awareness that can kind of let you distance yourself from the feelings…more like being a scientist keeping track of observations of an experiment rather than being the guy IN the experiment where everything is more intense and frustrating.

@ Stingray and Ted – Why should I accept being shunned from my own social circle because their wives have a problem with who I’m seeing? Are they that insecure that having a fun, young, and beautiful girl in their presence ruins their entire evening?

“Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.”

Regarding attractiveness, its the opposite for women.

This is why a woman, who is young, who has never kissed, never had a relationship etc, and is very pretty, has an incredible level of attractiveness. They are goldmines. I’m at uni and I specifically look for these women (they do exist at age 17-18) because they are:

1. easier
2. more loyal
3. more attractive in and of itself because of their femininity and innocence

Think about the opposite: a Western born Asian woman. A filthy masculine whore with a massive ego.

If it’s important to you to stay in the circle then, obviously, go. But these women will likely do their best to make your girl very uncomfortable. If she’s sweet, don’t leave her side. If she’s spunky and good with one liners, she might be able to hold her own, but those wives are going to be pissed she is there and even more pissed that their husbands are checking her out. If the women wear the pants in any of those relationships, they will likely be catty to you, your GF and their husbands.

And who are your friends going to side with? You or their wives? Could make a real tough spot.

Another question/anecdotal observation…among that hot group of older Asian women I know or bang…many regularly try to make themselves look younger through various beauty treatments and exercise.

They also “act” younger and avoid any references to their age such as “when I was in university” type of references…

I only point this out because I wonder if it’s aligned with this.
‘
The graphs illustrate the trend…but the ones I’m referring to are consciously or subconsciously avoiding or trying to delay the trend…

” I’m about to define the SMP and sexual market values (SMV) from my own perception, but I fully recognize the want for defining these dynamics in a clear, understandable format, so I’ll beg forgiveness for this indulgence.”

No need for begging it’s unseemly and anyways your breakdown is very insightful. I’ve been wondering why it took me to my mid 30’s to be able to to pull the finest tail of my life. Prior to reading this, I just thought I was a late bloomer , or that I waited too long to study and implement game.

the fact that a mans smv value can extend far beyond the female “wall” gives most men a high enough leverage point to cancel out alpha or beta traits. one great tool men have is the ability to improve themselves and increase their vaue.. Fot a media reference look at Clint Eastwood on his wifes new reality show. He is still very alpha.also a mans legacy can live forever. I saw a bumper sticker once that said history rarely remembers well behaved women. This is true. Women are not built to misbehave. This is a feminist ideology. Men can behave or misbave and still be remembered favorably. It is important to ris above the short term valadation women get in their prime smv period and realie that as a man you are built to last and improve.

You say that not every man is the same (“Men of some careers”), yet extrapolate out the experience of a few of your mid-20’s buddies to all mid-20’s guys. Check your logic.

I had a buddy say the same thing. He was a 5’6″ asian with bug eyes who only learned fratboy game. Of course it was harder for him once he left college; he never learned any real game, and the massive party opportunities didn’t exist.

The only place such a total avoidance of responsibility without reality crashing in is possible is with the ultra-wealthy. College students today are paying for their binge with mountains of debt and etc. etc. Not really pickup relevant.

In summary, exploit college while you can, because it isn’t reality. Just like you have to get a job to make money after you graduate, you also have to learn game to get laid. Life is tough like that.

LOL. Nothing like a 21 year old kid trying to tell everyone what’s up. Your friends for certain were all frat-boys, confronted now with the cold hard fact that they don’t have what it takes to cut it in the real world. Given you are not a total loser, female attention increases exponentially once you hit 30. This is indisputable.

A peak at 23 reflects peak fertility. If you look at centerfolds and starlets it also reflects when their sexual attractiveness peaks.
Most readers seem to agree with this, your tastes may vary a bit.

However, I think the slope up to 23 should start earlier, and it should be more of a plateau from 18 to 23. There’s no way the average 18 year old is substantially less attractive than the average 23 year old. Again, look at models and porn stars. You can’t really say they haven’t hit their stride at 18. And fashion magazines are full of 14-16 year old models because they are emphasising fresh faces over T&A.I’d draw it as 13 being about equal to 30 on a “5”, increasing rapidly up to “9” by 16 and hitting “10” at 18 with a plateau to 23.

I think a historical preference for 16 year old brides is just a matter of getting in early before the best girls are snapped up. So you can enjoy their peak beauty a few years later. Also preference for virgins, etc.

As I stated in my introduction, this graph is meant to reflect a post-sexual revolution SMV. Your argument would be valid if we still lived in an age where the average lifespan was 40-60 years and our level of social connectivity was limited to agrarian collectives.

However I’d argue that with little deviation you could still shift backwards both bell curves to put 17 as a woman’s peak and men’s at around 25 and they’d look essentially the same adjusted for their social and historical differences. When you lived in an environment where men would die in war more frequently, and disease, health and hygiene culled the herds more vigorously the SMV landscape would reflect those realities.

And for the record, overall SMV has a lot more to it than the girls who promised to go steady with you at 14.

Wicker Park on a Saturday can be fun if you like artists. Cobra Lounge for rockers is always a good time. DePaul University village in Lincoln Park is good if you’re into the sorority crowd who likes ball games (not I).

Not too long ago, I met a very pretty and intelligent 19 year old and vetted her for a possible LTR. She introduced me to her coed friends; the first time around they hated me and challenged me openly and then challenged her when I left for the night. Of course I told them to basically STFU, but she just shrugged at their complaints.

Once it was obvious that she was too busy with school (which, in her case, I actually have encouraged since), I told her LJBF. Her friends who previously hated me put out some pretty strong intent in wanting to get together.

The age difference is NOT a problem unless the guy isn’t confident in himself. I know I’ve stumbled over it in the past, and that’s when the age difference was only 7 years, not 15+.

Now, it’s not a problem. If someone calls me on it, I just compliment them or their male partners on their ability to sustain a relationship on more than beauty reasons. That usually shuts them up.

Oh dear, I posted my above comment out of place, but I’ll just continue. This would probably be a good topic for a post: dealing with friends, family, and society in general when in a relationship with an age disparity. I know everyone was against my relationship with my ex-husband (eleven years older) and it really did take a lot of the joy out of it that no one supported it. Not my friends, not his, not my family, not his. Its easy to say it doesn’t matter, but it does have an impact. No excitement over our engagement, no pleasure in our creating a family. Of course, there were other issues at play, but the age thing was a serious objection considering I was nineteen when we fell in love.

My grand-grandmother told me stories of her childhood. Living near Sochi in the pre communist Russia, she remembered how a girl could only hope to get merried before her 14th birthday. (I suspect sexual maturity to be important) After this there was little chance to get a man to commit. So this girls, if failed to marry, would be of low worth to the family and therefore wouldn’t be protected much. They would have to work on the marketplace. Once a week local tartar bandits would come down from their hidings in the mountains and collect from every trader (every family was trading due to lack of widespread money) half of his goods. Due to the weakness of government to this time, the bandits seemed to have such an agreement with the local governors. Half of the income for protection. When ever a bandit liked a girl there he just took/kidnapped her. After a few months he would return and drop her at the marketplace again, very often pregnant. After this this girl had to live on her own, most often as a day laborer on some farm.

Only in America would there be a problem with a husband being 11 years older than the wife.

An ex of mine was 21 when I met her. I was 31. Her stepdad had an issue with it, her mom was perfectly fine with it. Stepdad was apple pie American, mom was foreign born Fillipina. First time I took her to meet my family, my sister asked her how old she was. My sister’s jaw almost hit the floor when she got the answer.

Really? This whole “What the hell would a 31 year old have in common with a 21 yr old” thing is nothing more than societal programming that stems from the feminist agenda. This was BY FAR the best relationship I have ever had. We got along great. She wasn’t rode hard and put away wet like ALL of the older women I have met. She was properly feminine (as much so as a girl who spent most of her life in America can be). I introduced her to the world and she was grateful for it.

Incidentally, if you are an older guy wanting to get with younger women the key is to reframe it so that YOU are qualifying HER to see if she is mature enough to be with an older man. When you find out her age (ONLY when it comes up, otherwise don’t bring it up) instead of saying “How do you feel about being with an older man” you say “OMG…..you’re just a BABY! I hope I don’t get arrested for talking to you!” I stumbled upon this when I met the 21 yr old mentioned above and it works like a charm. Totally short circuits societal programming putting her in the position to have to qualify herself to you. The only time I got any resistance to this was with a sassy sorority girl who ended up at one of my parties. She challenged my reframe. Didn’t end up hitting it but despite the fact that the reframe didn’t work we still ended up messing around later that night.

Nice, good to know. I live in the square, so I know it and a bit of Wicker Park more than anything (only been in Chicago 10 months). Every time I branched out to try a new place I had fun, but didn’t see much. I’ll try hitting areas you mentioned up.

It’s not a man’s physical age so much as what the age represents (or is perceived to) – maturity, accomplishment, better provisioning capacity, status, etc. Do ALL men actually realize these to their satisfaction by this time? Of course not, but it’s the perception that they SHOULD have actualized this that is the attractant in comparison to younger guys who haven’t, nor would really be expected to. Mature Men represent this perception of assumed accomplishment and security – exactly what women are looking for in a phase of life where their sexual marketability declines and their need for long term provisioning becomes more urgent.

lol I did my homework, Rollo 🙂 When I read articles like these two, I am always very grateful that I did the marriage/child route despite the fact that since it did not work out as I had hoped, it is sometimes the exact cause of my singlehood. BUT, I would rather have it this way than the other way around. Now where is that donate button.

Accurate chart as far as such an impressionistic topic goes. I would put the peaks at the nice, round numbers of 20 and 30, with the female plateauing until 25, then sharp drop, male plateauing to 40, then gradual drop.

Rollo wrote:

However I’d argue that with little deviation you could still shift backwards both bell curves to put 17 as a woman’s peak and men’s at around 25 and they’d look essentially the same adjusted for their social and historical differences.

This observation gets to the heart of it. The reason why a man’s market value takes longer to manifest is because it takes time to build a man. If we were serious about making men, this would occur during the teenage years and coincide with the female peak (and ten more years of plateau). Plato’s guardians — fully formed men and leaders of the polity — debut at age thirty, when maturity and youth meet and mutually reinforce each other. As it is in the west, we indulge in an extended adolescence that does not require men to be men until they are nearly thirty. Coming of age rituals across every culture used to begin with puberty — Bar Mitzvahs are at age 13.

It takes time to build a woman, but the operation isn’t nearly so complicated. She could graduate from finishing school and “come out” at her sweet sixteen with little risk, as finished men five-to-ten years her senior would be prepared to primarily shoulder the burden of adulthood outside of the household.

But as you see, we have thrown the biological and cultural clocks into chaotic dissynchronicity. Girls are sexualized before the age of ten, but are not expected to make serious life choices until thirty. Boys are given no guidance into manhood, and so lurch idiosyncratically toward what manliness their misandrist culture capriciously allows. The ones that do get their advanced degree in manhood — often later in their plateau, as your chart indicates — clean up. The male peak is much higher than the female’s, because inane laws of sexual harassment and age of consent are attempting to do on a macro level what only custom can accomplish on a micro level. In the post-sexual revolution fuck all, women have been reduced to prey while men educated in the crimson arts can rove as predators for decades.

Of course you don’t. Meantime, your arrogant nonsense proves our point. Boys age 15-25 are scum of the earth. Full of hormone, energy, and ignorance, and still too inexperienced to understand the dangers of that cocktail. They have tasted liberation from their mommies and believe themselves to be free of all constraint. This is why, in the absence of guidance, the 20-year-old boy cannot achieve peak value. He simply does not have the mechanisms of self-control in place, is not wise enough to understand why they need to be in place, and rejects all efforts to put them in place until the big bad world teaches the Prodigal Son everything he thought he could ignore.

There is swagger that comes from having been there, and then there is swagger that comes from pure attitude. Boys are good at the latter while having no conception of the utility of the former. Even young girls can tell the difference between braggadocio and the serenity that accompanies true mastery. There is simply no comparison.

We used to force manhood on boys so that they didn’t have to suffer into the wisdom that maximizes his SMV — just as we used to force chastity onto girls so they didn’t have to learn from their own cock carousel casualties that their mom was right.

Kids like Cyrus need boot camp or ten years experience fucking up before I can entertain the possibility of considering them peers. But nobody in the self-esteem-drunk culture of the feminized west tells them that. They still believe they’re the specialest snowflakiest snowflake that their mommy always told them … until they have to cut their first check for taxes, or get shot at, or make payroll, or figure out how to feed their own sons.

I am get a kick out of the spastic displays of unchecked testosterone by dudes in their early 20’s. It’s like they are outgunned by older dudes and deep down they know it. It comes out as aggression but it reeks of insecurity. I can think of a couple of occasions where I found myself in the company of a group of younger dudes and it’s totally different than a more controlled status determined interaction between guys who are late 20’s and up.

It’s was especially funny to watch a couple of these clowns try to punk me in my own house. Partying in MY rockstar townhouse, complaining that the vodka I’m pouring them isn’t Grey Goose? PUHLEESE. I guess when your status is eclipsed by a factor of 10 you’ll grasp at anything but I would assume women could see through that a mile away.

My friends are going to side with their wives to keep the peace and not stir anything up because they’re all “yes dear” types. The kitten i’m seeing is just DTF and wants to have fun, so to her it’s all amusing.

It just seems like with “older guy/younger girl game” everyone seems to hate on it, including friends. I returned to college in early 30’s for a second degree in the medical field and I had my pick of the litter. It was impossible not to date much younger girls.

What advice can I give her regarding relationships beyond what I know from experience…?

She’s an extremely intelligent and beautiful young woman, and I’ve enlightened her on many a thing when it comes to this area of life. I should add that compared to every girl I’ve known (save one or two), and of all her friends, she’s by far the most grounded, the least….easily swayed (she’s not a slut).

Don’t give her advice, give her specific instruction. Vet her boyfriends and mentor them. As important as her being “intelligent” and self aware is, they are not nearly enough, especially for a “beautiful young woman.” She is at the absolute peak of her powers with very little resources to exploit them wisely, so she will be exploited. Everything she does in the next few years will change her life immeasurably. These are not decisions to be left to an underprepared kid.

You have to hit her hard with this reality, monitor every little fuck-up, and above all, maintain her trust in you. Without a support system surrounding her everywhere and at all times, it doesn’t matter how “enlightened” she is. She will get used up — it’s our specialty as men. The only corrective to this state of affairs is male advocacy, to out-play the players on her behalf, match strength with strength, the best defense is a good offense. The culture is against you. Hormones are against you. Everything but your own long-term perspective and your love for your sister is against you.

The female equivalent of Game has not been invented yet. This is why I get on women like Stingray and Geisha Kate to at least take a shot at the genre. There were some promising starts with female literature on a revival of modesty from WendyShalit and Katie Roiphe, but they are poorly executed, unfocused, meandering, and without consistency or follow-up. (What do you want from women?) There are other resources that haven’t broken out of the religious ghetto and will not be generally accessible. A fatherly tome to his daughter on neo-femininity and cock-carousel avoidance remains to be written.

Until then, you have to live the anomaly in this culture — be the fiercely protective brother who knows why and how men exploit girls like your sister, and steer her away from the circumstances that lead to the momentary lapse that creates permanent tragedy. At the same time, you shape her suitors toward a post-feminist attitude that respects true femininity without sacrificing his manhood. It’s a tall order that can hardly be achieved alone. I hope she has a strong father and uncles, other brothers, and/or faith, more than just you — because you’re up against it.

The best thing you can do? Give her my email address. I’ll set her straight.

Regarding your alcoholism, MCM, just like in Game, there is no substitute for a good mentor. That is one thing AA undeniably got right. Until you find the man who has been where you have been and recovered, all other guidance will eventually lead you back to booze.

AA has since gone off the rails, but not for the reasons you think. They have gone too far in your direction (indulging the petulant solipsism of cynical know-it-alls) and away from the basics that made it the wildly successful treatment that it is. If you are so adamant about rejecting the possibility of a higher power, your problem is exponentially more difficult. There is a reason why it’s the second step. Whatever. At the bottom of alcoholism is an arrogant self-centeredness so profound that when you hit that bottom, you will choose death before denying it.

Who was talking about physical attractiveness? Your first mistake is overestimating that virtue in determining a man’s sexual market value.

Testimony like yours is more evidence that youth in men is a DLV. You can’t be this wrong on the fundamentals without mismanaging your SMV, and most men under thirty apparently have to suffer into that wisdom rather than simply believe it, as you continue to confirm.

No, baldness per se is not attractive in men. But it is a sign of the experience and maturity that women are drawn to (and men are not), and so is indistinguishable from discrete qualities one would classify as attractive.

When a patriarchical society regulates feminine desire, beta men have ready access to marriage and a sexual partner.

Substitute a culture that endorses rotating polyandry, that encourages women to find fulfilment in careers. Add lengthy and unnecessarily long training periods for most jobs. Change the nature of work to make it ‘safe’.

Mix, then serve. What comes out is men that struggle to find employment in their adult youth, that resent the stupidly long training times and that increasingly ask: wtf?

I would argue that women need far more training and input to make them valuable. A constant focus on the self, a desire to control, that hypergamous instinst and that constant rationilisation hamster to subdue.

My apologies if this one is out of place again. If you are looking for info. for women, I can tell you what I’ve read. Almost everything by John Gray, The Rules, Sherry Argov, Dating without Drama, a bunch of books by Bob Grant. Others who seem on the right track: Mimi Tanner, Evan Mark Katz. Probably the most helpful thing I did though was spend a year reading men’s minds at The Attraction Forums and gaining a virtual army of brothers. Oh, have her read Magic Bullets. Nick Savoy will have a book out in February for women called Its Your Move. But, yes, a lecture from Matt should do it 🙂 Support groups are good too. I know The Rules and Dating Without Drama had forums in the past. The DWD one no longer exists. It turns out having men join the site caused…drama! Quelle suprise! Thanks for the vote of confidence, King. I could maybe touch on that, but, ultimately, no advice would be considered truly valid unless I, myself, was in a successful relationship. It’d be like having a degree but no job.

As far as baldness goes, the biggest challenge is not letting it affect your confidence. I found that as soon as I got up the balls to shave my head everything was fine. I remember the first time I saw my friends after taking the plunge. I was nervous as hell and wore a baseball cap to the bar after work. One of my female coworkers had seen it earlier in the day and made a comment about it. Off came the cap and one of her friends, a tatted up suicide girl type was all over me that night and that was all I needed to see that everything was gonna be ok.

What it comes down to is that there are some women out there who flat out don’t like that look but the fact that there are some who dig it makes up for that. The majority of women probably don’t care much either way.

Rollo .. This is one of the most encouraging articles I read ( Im 41 ) =) .. You have done some counseling? MMmmmm well I have been having trouble logging in to SoSuave can I PM or msg some way to get some pointers …with some ..issues ..Thanx much appreciated

“At age 30 men are just beginning to manifest some proto-awareness of their sexual value, while simultaneously women are becoming painfully aware of their marked inability to compete with their sexual competitors indefinitely. ”

This is one of the reasons that this age tends to be when most marriages fall apart – the man is seeing he can “do better” from the response of women to him, and the women are trying to trade up while they still can. Of course, this is a problem for them since their SMV is decreasing, while many men are seeing no value in marrying. This is why there are a lot of ladies who divorce at around this time, then spend their time lamenting that decision, as their ex-husband usually goes on to start another family with a younger, hotter woman.

Unfortunately, most women tend to forever think they are at their “peak” rather than dropping precipitously. Of course, if they add a kid they automatically drop a couple of points, this is why women will sing their song about there being no “good men”. Most of the men they are used to being interested, are still pinging on those women at their SMV peak, since there are mitigating factors for men, such as monetary resources, power, and prestige – which women value greatly. Men do not value these in women since from a male perspective it’s all about reproductive capability – which always declines no matter what.

The assumption of such progression is that men’s market value is not so much based on their youthful looks as it is on their social status and financial security. Thus the assumption is that you – as a man – keep building your market value through all those years. If you keep adding up to your social skills, job skills, money-management skills, etc. then you’ll land there. If you are trapped in dead-end job, get the f*** out of there.

Guys, OK so I get it…a few girls either ignored you are f****d you over during your so called period of irrelevancy…but it seems here that as you external attractiveness increases with age..your internal attractiveness strikingly decreases. So what happens when you are seventy struggling to get your dick up or eighty on your death bed (if you’re lucky, we all know men don’t live too long)..who’s going to hold your hand and be grateful for the genuine contribution you made to their lives (and I’m not talking about the bling bling). Any woman with sense would not stick around to procreate in the face of such shallow, repugnant attitudes and I certainly would not to risk reproducing this sh*t.

Before you try to take me down, I am in my twenties and have no shortage of male attention. I don’t sleep around because I’m not a silly bitch willing to buy into most men’s nonsense. I believe that it is stupid thing for any woman to invest too heavily in her looks..we all age, we all decline, we all die and dissolve either in a grave or in a fiery inferno. This is the nature of life. But I’ll be damned if I spend my days with a man who selected me based on something that I have limited control over. I would much rather be hovering about my obese, cellulite addled ass (that’s what I’m doomed for, ain’t it?) on one of those bike things in Ikea than attempt to illicit and maintain the interest of any one of you meatheads.

And lady readers..do yourselves a favour..invest in you internal attractiveness..read books, watch comedy, cultivate interests, enjoy your goddamn food. If you want to exercise do it for you.

Men, if you want to enjoy your meaningless, repetitive rotation of beautiful shells..do…most of you will regret it whilst gagging your. final. breath.

Fine, I read that. I just don’t agree with you philosophy that women somehow have no purpose after the age of 30. What if say there were circumstances outside of her control that prevented her from getting married at what a simpleton might deem as an acceptable time…what if she never partied and slept around? There is more to a woman than physicality and it pisses me off that there are men like many of the above (bitter much?) who don’t appear to see worth in a women once her..what’s it called..sexual market value declines…it just strikes me a scarily misogynistic..like some creeped up from of American Psycho shit and it makes me scared for our society.

There is a lot to be said for developing true companionship with someone, having a kind of partner in crime relationship that endures…A woman of any age is appropriate for this.

Sexual market value. As with other arcane ‘game’ terms like: Neg. Take away. AMOG. I wonder how much more this nice girl, and she does present herself as a nice girl here, would agree this these overly ‘male’ terms if they where wrapped up in relateable stories. She made good use of American Psycho for example. She could of pillaged any of the classics or many, many other modern movies and novels instead to give weight, texture and even substance to her words.

Damn. We need more cultural touchstones to call on. We need more stories that cut right to the soul of us and show us the underlying rules of life. The only movie in the last 30 years that has done that for me is Fight Club and we are all the poorer for it.

S – The vast majority of the men on here realize that there are exceptions to every rule. Not all women are like that is a phrase so commonly used that it has warranted its own acronym. The problem is, many women are like that. Many of the women we have had experience with are like that. Furthermore, telling every woman that she can have her career, slut around, and then get married to some perfect man later in life is hurting women as well as the men they neglect in their prime years. Most men would prefer have a twenty-something girl…and better yet, have her when they are close to the same age.
Some women do get to make a mistake or two, have a career, and then get married later in life. My aunt got married to my uncle when they were both well into their thirties. I have never met two people that have matched so perfectly. But she is rare. Very rare. When I say intelligent, I mean rocket scientist in the most literal definition of the word.
All Rollo is trying to do is point out when people are at their peak. Women should be trying to find a decent man when they are young. If all she is going to do is dehumanize herself, making herself into nothing more than a life support system for a snatch, why the hell does she think men will treat her like anything other than a life support system for a snatch?

But don’t worry. Not all men are like the one you will find on these blogs. In fact, most aren’t. Most men have their heads shoved so far up their posteriors that they can taste every meal twice. The quicker more men and women start pulling their heads out, the sooner both genders will start finding true happiness.

Upon reading this article, I automatically thought of American Psycho..now, I have read The Game by Neil Strauss-> after a male friend referenced it, I thought I’d best educate myself. I just remember this page in American Psycho where they were discussing this lady commenting that at 28 she was “too old” to bang or whatnot and although I have not reached twenty eight yet..I remember feeling slightly disgusted. Nevertheless, American Psycho is an excellent read and does provide insight into how our society is evidently going.

Patrick Bateman doesn’t really seem a happy dude.

Anyhoo.

For me personally I spent my late teens and a significant portion of my twenties with the man I lost my virginity to. In the end, we were incompatible, we grew apart..and thought it the best choice to not bring children into the dynamic. I understand that many of the men here have been through some bad experiences with women but I personally do not want to be shoved into a category where I am seen as a lesser choice because I gave my so called peak years to the wrong person. Not all women in their twenties spend their time partying on this “cock carousel” you speak of. Myself personally, I spend a large amount of time reading, doing yoga..heck even playing WoW..I know many other women who aren’t wasting their twenties engaging in promiscuity and being a bitch basically. Right now I’m not ready for a relationship but I would like to think that when I am (and hopefully soon) there will be a willing worthy man who can appreciate me for who I am..not what I am temporarily.

Your worried about the choices you’re made, the place your in right now. Your judging yourself vs your friends and peers trying to work out your ‘status’. This is the most natural thing in the world. We all do this.
But you have read some upsetting things, been exposed to some strange concepts. There is a hint that people out there have formed some worldview which doesnt rate your or your choices. Even worse they claim objective moral and ethical truth. Double worse is that a little of what they say seems to make some sense to you. Well done on engaging with ideas that may seem to devalue you instead of dismissing them out of thought.
But this is why i wish there was a solid cultural touchstone i could point you to that could put forward the manospheres advice in a form that was easy to grasp, easy to understand.

“But you have read some upsetting things, been exposed to some strange concepts.There is a hint that people out there have formed some worldview which doesnt rate your or your choices. Even worse they claim objective moral and ethical truth”.

“Well done on engaging with ideas that may seem to devalue you instead of dismissing them out of thought”.

What do you say I or anyone else in a similar position DO with this information? Now as I have stated before..I do not regret the choice that has led me to where I am now. Perhaps I wonder would it have been better had I entered that relationship in my twenties instead of my teens but how and ever…what’s done is done.

Now I personally could follow the advice of many people and continue on as a “career woman” in the hope that someone right will eventually fall into my lap but realistically, I know it’s risky to peruse this path. I may not be the perfect age according to the graph (I’m turning 30 in a couple of years) but I’m certainly not a Gargoyle, heavy drinker, druggie or bedhopper.

So what would you or anyone else who is willing to help do in my position? The others cautioned me about this “spark” phenomena which was good sound advice.