FWIW: remember the NBA health of the league argument? NBA season economic figures coming out this morning are strong as hell. All three major Networks had double digit ratings increases (lowest being ESPN at 28%).

Arenas ran at 90% capacity for the 7th straight season.

Attendence on the whole up 1%

Merchendise sales up 20%.

NBAStore.com sales up 60%

Of note: fixing the CBA is a major hurdle in two billionaires coming into the league (including Burkes who wants to save the Kings/already save the Penguins). They are going to demand stipulations of a shift in economic policy as part of buying.

That said the overarching conclusion from these numbers is that the sports is healthy. Main changes needed (as I have been saying for fucking ever are an overhaul of revenue sharing and tweaks to the soft-cap system).

IOW: eat it h8ters.

All this was from Berge. Owners Lock-out power is clearly shrinking by the day.

PS: two billionaires are currently making public their desires to buy into the league, which would make IIRC roughly ten of the league owned by billionaires. Combine that with the old school owners and new age meh money guys like Gilbert are just angry nothings.

And make no mistake about it, Stern gets hard over bringing in billionaire owners

e0y2e3 wrote:FWIW: remember the NBA health of the league argument? NBA season economic figures coming out this morning are strong as hell. All three major Networks had double digit ratings increases (lowest being ESPN at 28%).

Arenas ran at 90% capacity for the 7th straight season.

Attendence on the whole up 1%

Merchendise sales up 20%.

NBAStore.com sales up 60%

How does all this compare to before the economy imploded? How did the numbers look after the Melodrama?

If Stern thinks he can thrive with a handful of big market superteams and a bunch of Washington Generals, he can go have a chat with Bud Selig to ask how well that's working out for him.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

But this April has seen a half-dozen teams produce the worst single-game crowds in the history of their stadiums, and several more flirted with that distinction.

The new stadium boom is over. The age where everyone thought their team could compete in April is over. Almost nobody believes anymore. Almost nobody cares, not when they're overpaying for tickets and beer just to watch a bunch of scrubs and stars that are virtually guaranteed to be wearing top-market uniforms in a few years. And this is the same direction the NBA is heading.

If you were a fan, you'd understand.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Being an NBA owner isn't much different: You need a face and a checkbook. The best owners take it much further by becoming the face of their franchise, engaging their fans, getting involved in the community, unearthing inventive ways to generate revenue, then putting that extra revenue back into their team. But you don't necessarily have to do that. You can just sit back, hire mediocre employees and pay for just enough stuff to stay afloat.

I should've figured it out when TMLP got a seat on the labor relations committee. This cements it.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Yes I certainly got the the NBA is dead, most of America hates it and there is no way massive revenue sharing, a cut-back on contracts/lengths and a franchise tag could fix it.

Nope.

That certainly read like a nuclear end of the world column. Read just like all your posts too.

And look up who heads the relocation committee before crowing about NBA committees meaning anything. I’m pretty sure if there is a spot open and you get on your knees for Stern first you get that spot.

Lastly let’s not forget that in Simmons continuing laziness as recently as a few weeks ago he was blaming the city of Sacramento for the potential move (which is 100% off-base). The guy is a hack that is too busy being a media titan to be bothered with researching things.

^ the above fact does nothing to hurt my interest in his new site, because while he isn’t paying proper attention to sports the guy is hiring some really fucking good writers.

I haven’t argued that things are perfect in the NBA (although the fact that the owners opened up their books for the players shows things like the fake $300MM loss from this year includes shit like depreciation and losses from other ventures baked into the books, which is hilarious). I just can’t turn into a whiny vagina like you because LBJ was mean.

One of the best playoffs of all time is going on and more people are watching than ever before. That makes me pretty fucking happy.

I don’t give a fuck if LBJ raped me, the chance to watch Chris Paul turn into THE BEST players in the NBA over the last two weeks has been as awesome as sports gets. And I really want to know WTF you are going to have to bitch about if the 1 and 2 seeds go down in the West.

e0y2e3 wrote:Yes I certainly got the the NBA is dead, most of America hates it and there is no way massive revenue sharing, a cut-back on contracts/lengths and a franchise tag could fix it.

Nope.

Where has anyone said that? Oh wait. Nobody has. In fact, aside from maybe tossing in a hard cap that's exactly what the Association needs. Just a few posts back you said it wasn't going to happen. Well, surprise.

Lastly let’s not forget that in Simmons continuing laziness as recently as a few weeks ago he was blaming the city of Sacramento for the potential move (which is 100% off-base). The guy is a hack that is too busy being a media titan to be bothered with researching things.

Amazingly enough, when presented with new facts, people can change their minds. Especially if their higher-ups at ESPN and the NBA are publicly changing their tune as well.

I just can’t turn into a whiny vagina like you because LBJ was mean.

Because he was 'mean'? Bullshit.

One of the best playoffs of all time is going on and more people are watching than ever before. That makes me pretty fucking happy.

Is there a Cleveland team in the playoffs? No? Surprisingly enough, I'm not all that invested in the postseason this year. Imagine that.

I don’t give a fuck if LBJ raped me, the chance to watch Chris Paul turn into THE BEST players in the NBA over the last two weeks has been as awesome as sports gets.

And this is why I called bullshit on your being a 'fan'. At least Herm and the others have skin in the team as well as the sport. You're just some guy who'd be pleased as punch if you had Harlem Globetrotter season tickets.

Thankfully for the wine and gold, it looks like Stern's realizing he's about to lose the mid-markets and is working to fix that. Amen to that.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Ah yes. Now you are going to churn out more arguments about most of America not caring about a sport that is breaking all time playoff viewership records. Every say you just keep on spitting out the same baseless talking points and it has literally made you a worthless poster. I've said half of what was in Simmons column for months, only problem is you only read every third paragraph in there because that is all you could spin into your butt hurt agenda.

The peripherals with the nba are strong as is interest. Imo the hard cap won't and shouldn't happen. That is the one thing there is a small chance I am wrong on, I've nailed the rest. You've whined and spun.

PS: I have been saying the revenue sharing and a franchise tag are they keys since, well, forever. Still think they end up with that.

PPS: did you bother to look up the head of the NBA relocation committee? Or how big that Lakers new contract (which is currently shielded do to the worst revenue sharing in pro sports, which of course I mentioned in this thread back around Christmas) is? If you would start paying attention to the situation and learning instead of continuing the melt down you started in July maybe you would at least have a grasp on what is actually going on with the league. Instead of your constant “NO ON IN MIDDLE AMERICA CARES AND THE PLAYERS ARE BAD!@$!” whiny ass bullshit.

BTW: no one exposed Simmons to different takes, you could see him shift his argument in Twitter on Real Time when he realized how sloppy his prior take was. He still is a hack that quit caring a few years ago and is more focused on 30 for 30 docs and starting his website than following the NBA.

And if you were actually following the labor situation instead of being a whiny bitch you would also have noticed a big ratchet down in rhetoric from Stern lately. He's openly went back to the negotiating table and isn't swinging nearly the big dick he was even six months ago. And the players have seen the books at this point, FWIW.

e0y2e3 wrote:Of note: fixing the CBA is a major hurdle in two billionaires coming into the league (including Burkes who wants to save the Kings/already save the Penguins). They are going to demand stipulations of a shift in economic policy as part of buying.

Burkle is obvious, who is the other one you are counting? Chouest?

"Dammit you piss me off. I f#ckin hate you and I hope you f#cking get killed by a rabid polar bear you douche bag."

Problem No. 3: It's really difficult to contend unless (A) you strike oil in the lottery, or (B) persuade Chris Wallace or Kevin McHale to trade you his best player. New Orleans landed Chris Paul only because Atlanta screwed up and took Marvin Williams, who's being used as the guy who holds back Zaza Pachulia in all of Zaza's pseudo-altercations. Oklahoma City needed pingpong help to land the second pick of the 2007 draft and needed Portland to pass on Durant. Milwaukee? It landed the No. 1 overall pick of the 2005 draft (Andrew Bogut) one year after Dwight Howard and two years after LeBron James. Bad luck. You get only a couple of home run chances per decade as a small-market team. The odds are against you.

Problem No. 4: It's really, really difficult to persuade a franchise player, or even a perennial All-Star, to remain in a small market unless you're winning 60-plus games every year. NBA players like sunshine, big cities and tax-free states. If a franchise can't offer one of the three carrots, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy -- like the girl who joins "The Real World" and claims she's going to keep a long-distance relationship with her boyfriend of six years. You know she will hook up with a roommate; you know the boyfriend will come visit and play pool with that roommate; and you know she will dump him at the end of the weekend. It's just the way the show works. Same for LeBron leaving Cleveland. The current free-agency system doesn't give smaller markets any advantage to help them keep their best players. Superstars such as Chris Paul ultimately will play wherever they want. Lesser stars such as Danny Granger will stick around, but only if you overpay them and destroy your cap. You're screwed either way.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

The Hothead is actually the voice of reason if you read what he's writing, not how.

The rest of us are really all the Hotheads becasue of how it all went down last June.

All Lee is really saying is:

- The State of the NBA has never een better by any national / international objective measure. To think there is a blowtorch ready to be taken to that out of outrage over The Decision is completely irrational.

- Loving the Game is alot more than being the fan of a single team and single player fixation. (point taken, but F U anyway Lee. ;-) )

- Sure there's issues, but nothing a franchise tag couldn't fix s far as competitive imbablance and revenue sharing to help smaller markets, something he's said needs to be in the CBA next time around. personally, looking at team's slaries, I firmly believe that a harder cap should be in place, too. But that's not enough to go Tong War.

Get past the rhetoric, pretend to get past tWoA, and how do you really poke major holes in that?

The NBA is very entertaining right now, backed up by all the #'s Lee has provided.

The NBA also has major problems that desperately need addressed or less people will be watching five years from now. No need to go into them because the Simmons piece did it perfectly. The problems are fixable, but I don't see them being fixed right without a stoppage and some pain on both sides. This isn't like the NFL ... where everyone is rolling in dough and they just gotta figure out how to split up the kitty.

I fully admit to being totally put off by the sport right now after the LeFuckFace ordeal and totally biased. It's still hard for me to watch the sport. And I love NBA basketball, again, for all the reasons Lee mentioned.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

The NBA is very entertaining right now, backed up by all the #'s Lee has provided.

The NBA also has major problems that desperately need addressed or less people will be watching five years from now. No need to go into them because the Simmons piece did it perfectly. The problems are fixable, but I don't see them being fixed right without a stoppage and some pain on both sides. This isn't like the NFL ... where everyone is rolling in dough and they just gotta figure out how to split up the kitty.

I fully admit to being totally put off by the sport right now after the LeFuckFace ordeal and totally biased. It's still hard for me to watch the sport. And I love NBA basketball, again, for all the reasons Lee mentioned.

I think I am pretty close to where you are at, Rich. The whole Bron thing has soured me, but I have to admit not s much as I thought. If anything, I am watching MORE playoff basketball this year than recent years becasue I don't have an NBA team in my region. I thought I'd tune out, but I'm not for the reasons Lee gives. Where I divulge from Lee is that I think there are enough PO'd owners in numbers to push through the changes like firmer cap, franchise tags, and anti-player collusion down the players' throats and Stern will be putched if his arrogant, sleeping thru games on camera, Monty Burns ass gets in the way, billionaires or not. I think Lee understimates Le Petit Douche.

And I'd be stunned if this all ocurred without a major labor stoppage of NHL proportions.

I'm just saying I think objectively Lee has a broader perspective more representative of the market whole reality than Joe Cavs' Fan (of which I am one) .

The NBA is very entertaining right now, backed up by all the #'s Lee has provided.

The NBA also has major problems that desperately need addressed or less people will be watching five years from now. No need to go into them because the Simmons piece did it perfectly. The problems are fixable, but I don't see them being fixed right without a stoppage and some pain on both sides. This isn't like the NFL ... where everyone is rolling in dough and they just gotta figure out how to split up the kitty.

I fully admit to being totally put off by the sport right now after the LeFuckFace ordeal and totally biased. It's still hard for me to watch the sport. And I love NBA basketball, again, for all the reasons Lee mentioned.

Just to clear it up: I entirely agree, even I just didn't put it quite as diplomatically.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

The only thing that truly boggles my mind is that people think these numbers, on the uptick since LBJ – Wade – Bosh entered the league are all of the sudden going to fall apart in five years? It is impossible for the league to a single more off-putting moment than The Decision and The Heat’s preseason Laser Light Orgy unless you get another brawl. That just birthed a team so fervently followed (by haters and lovers) that ESPN gave them their own section of the web-site (including a big raise for Patton Oswalt to continue covering LBJ)

The issued tied to the massive popularity growth is mainly tied to the fact that the national TV contract isn’t up until 2016. That said rest assured that new contract is going to be a major windfall.

Also I think you guys really overestimate the players – NBA fight. With no lockout and with the NBA literally opening their books for the players (and exposing things like baking depreciation in and showing Net Revenue instead of EBITDA (SMH)) I think one of if not the biggest hurdle is going to be the in-fighting between the owners re: revenue sharing. Small markets in the NBA like the Cavs and Spurs have nice TV contracts but seriously, the Lakers are about to get as much annually as the effin NHL. On the other side of the coin the NBA doesn’t share any of visiting ticket revenue, which will help the bigger markets a bit once they start sharing it (NFL shares a 1/3).

Add to that the fact that the NFL players are more on a crash and burn course than a work things out course and you realistically could see an NBA resolution before the NFL.

In the NBA as it is guys like LBJ as criminally underpaid while guys like Darko are massively overpaid salary wise. Don’t forget that point when considering that these guys are going to work to pull back the salaries a bit (hard or soft cap, this should be done).

I get you guys being put off by the sport, I really do. I don’t bleed like you and never will. Always will be a Cavs first guy but the chance to watch the most wide open year since the early 90’s and shit like the Grizzlies and Hornet’s is great theater. Not to mention the impending Heat – Celtics series, which is arguably the most anticipated playoff series of all time.

e0y2e3 wrote:The only thing that truly boggles my mind is that people think these numbers, on the uptick since LBJ – Wade – Bosh entered the league are all of the sudden going to fall apart in five years?

I'll borrow a term from Rich's circle of business: Past performance does not guarantee future results. Superstars concentrating on a handful of teams equals an increasingly irrelevant regular season for a growing number of teams, which leads to empty arenas, fewer viewers watching on local cable, and fewer local fans growing attached to the sport. How much of that can you make up on revenue sharing from merchandising and postseason revenues?

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Ah, you have a hunch iow. Great analysis. Maybe we can start talking about how the nba has primarily always been about a few big markets because of the nature of the sport for the 50th time? I'm actually amazed how butt hurt you are. Read you for years and never imagined a baseless melt inspired rant like this lasting a year.

Objectively, the 1st round had some moments where a few david's threw a couple nice stones, but same ole same old is rising, and it is consistent with Simmons take on competitive imbalance, and Madre's takes on clustering mega stars.

A small market fan base will lose interest fast if they cannot keep their stud, the link above bears that out, umm that means us. As a big a drop as there has been in viewing in a long time IIRC. Also remember the NBA has the youngest median age of viewers (in the US) of any of the mainstream sports, you'd think that would go a long way in sustainability for the association, you never know though.

Personally I'm just not sure all these numbers that show a pretty healthy league in terms of television viewers and game attendance correlates with the arrow pointing up on the product on the floor, but in today's world the quality of a product is kind of an after thought to people when they spend money on entertainment. I'm not suggesting the product is garbage but it has changed and IMO that change leads to losing significant number of viewers from specific age groups.

I will say this though throughout the hey day of the league, the 80's and YES JB Da90's, the same formula was at play with only a few teams winning it (thanks to MJ's spring break otherwise only 1 team would have won it for a decade). Free agency was also born during that time and guess what, the league kept chugging right along. The league hasn't had to deal with parity in terms of championships in a long long time, IMO if that comes about soon (and it looks like it could) that will be the most telling sign of the NBA going forward.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

e0y2e3 wrote: Maybe we can start talking about how the nba has primarily always been about a few big markets because of the nature of the sport for the 50th time? .

Corrolation to size / nature of the city and resources altering tean composition like today, or more like a very limited sample size and lots of dumb luck & good decisions begetting four dynasties that happened to be in large markets with the smaller markets competing very well during the interregnum years?

e0y2e3 wrote: Maybe we can start talking about how the nba has primarily always been about a few big markets because of the nature of the sport for the 50th time? .

Corrolation to size / nature of the city and resources altering tean composition like today, or more like a very limited sample size and lots of dumb luck & good decisions begetting four dynasties that happened to be in large markets with the smaller markets competing very well during the interregnum years?

In what way? Team obtains superstar through means of lottery, team hires coach with head not inserted into asshole, team has enough money to keep superstar, team spends money wisely more times than not, team wins title a lot. Did I miss anything?

j/k

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Geezes Christ, the league lost Cleveland this year and gained Memphis, Portland is still around, SA is still around… etc.

No there isn’t some major change in the sport where you have this massive mid-market competitive balance (THAT NEVER WAS THERE DURING THE PREVIOUS GOLDEN ERAS). What has changed is that you have more teams (5) right now that can win the title than you have had in a good while.

5 Legit championship caliber teams is a lot for this league.

If you guys want to howl that the failure of Dwight Howard in Orlando is going to magically turn people off of the league I recommend getting off crack. It’s a joke of an argument that has no basis. You had TWO markets lose their lynch pins to go to a team with a superstar this year and REGULAR SEASON ATTENDENCE AND TV VIEWERSHIP WENT UP, A LOT. The smallest regular season TV increase was ESPN at 28%!!@#$!

Stop with the propaganda filled bullshit because that is all this “superstars hanging out together” take is.

Again, where were you guys in when Grant and McGrady joined forces of Jason Kidd was demanding trades to SA?

The NBA is what it is and that isn’t changing. Teams should have and will have a better shot at keeping a superstar going forward but that is moot as THIS YEAR is proving in EVERY MEASURABLE.

Simmons take with you having to get lucky and what not with superstars is dead nuts on and has been for ages. All of you blowing Simmons right now can excuse yourselves and go back and read the column where he traces the 10K examples of superstars colluding.

Same league, more talent, more interesting teams, a changing of the guard… etc

Super-star collusion ruining the league is the dumbest and laziest take you can have.

And on your last post JB if you all are so hurt about LBJ going to Miami you would have cried just the same had he gone to Milwaukee. Market size doesn’t matter, limited title contending markets are limited title contending markets.

Lastly, for the 50th time, the NBA has a bigger and better international basis than any other sport. Something tells me China is a bit more important to the league than a HISTORICALLY PATHETIC NEO BASKETBALL MARKET.

I'll borrow a term from Rich's circle of business: Past performance does not guarantee future results. Superstars concentrating on a handful of teams equals an increasingly irrelevant regular season for a growing number of teams, which leads to empty arenas, fewer viewers watching on local cable, and fewer local fans growing attached to the sport. How much of that can you make up on revenue sharing from merchandising and postseason revenues?

Exactly, I don't think anyone is disputing e0's take about the health of the sport at the top. I absolutely hate LeBron James and it clouds my perspective, but even I'll admit that the Heat are one of the most fascinating stories in sports over the past 20 years. That big of a villain has to be. And if ultimately you'd be OK with the contraction of 7-8 teams or you think the panache of the Heat-like teams cancels out the irrelevance of flyover states, fine. We can agree to disagree and really wouldn't know the answer for another decade or so.

But for a 30 team league to prosper (and with the deep current talent pool, that's how it should be), you have to make it worth people's while in every market. Everybody loves the baseball comparison but you can even take it a step further with the NBA because you can't drink a beer outdoors on a summer night for a reasonable ticket price while watching the NBA. I'm a basketball/Cavs junkie that spends a lot of my disposable income on sports, but even I'm going to have reservations about paying 100 a pop to watch an awful team play another awful team while Kesha songs are blasted in my face. Good playoff TV ratings only tell part of the story because like Madre said, local cable and ticket sales are an important component. The NFL's TV contract is fully national and so lucrative that teams could probably turn a profit without anybody showing up to the stadium (i.e. Jacksonville Jaguars). The NBA doesn't have that luxury.

The problems are easily fixable with more revenue sharing plus longer rookie deals or a franchise tag (which I think most are in agreement on). But whether I hate LeBron or not, these need to be addressed for the league to continue on in current form.

And e0, just read your last post and it's well taken. There are several small market teams with chances to compete. But while a topheavy league is nothing new, I honestly think there's something different about players conspiring to make these superteams happen. In the past, I think dynasties were a lot more palatable when people perceived (correctly or not) that they were built by legitimate means. The numbers may not reflect it yet but I think you'll see residual damage if this trend continues.

Last edited by Kingpin74 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

e0y2e3 wrote:Lastly, for the 50th time, the NBA has a bigger and better international basis than any other sport. Not only does the guy in China have your job, he's watching & playing your game bitches!

In all seriousness though I'm not too sure of China's relevance to the quality of the NBA game on the floor, nor to Joe NBA Fan's existence here in the states.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

You might have several different champions, but I only counted one moderate or small market among that group (St. Louis). That wasn't even my point though. My point is that baseball prospers in spite of those issues, but has a very different dynamic as far as attending games. Regardless of the team's fortunes on the field, you get a lot of people out to baseball games for different reasons and a good ticket doesn't cost much. But for someone to pay big money for NBA tickets, the team better be winning.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

That the NBA will be the first to be Rollarball and that is somehow superior to America's sport and America's pass time? So the WBA can have 2 NY teams, 3 LA teams and Chicago plus maybe 4 other warm weather cities play teams from cities in China and India? and that's soo kewl?

Why don't you move to China.

Oh yeah, casue you;d be shot dead for your posts by the Minister of Fans. ;-)

re Kingpin: I’m not going to get into the MLB thing but if you can’t see the lying clichés spread about on message boards in regards to it, fine don’t.

And when you pull 16 fans a game and have no TV money you are a small market, regardless of salary.

You’re point still doesn’t hold with the national trend this year re: the NBA so whatever. Attendance and TV revenue is up nationally, but you’re right Dewey Howard ditching that shit storm in Orlando in two years is going to kill interest! I just know it!