England

{Tim Coggins 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.

Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. Darksatanic 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. Strolls 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{Tim Coggins 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. Darksatanic 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like Darksatanic - let me know if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). Strolls 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{Marcel de Jong 19/04} I received an idea from User:Jan de Haan. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{Sander Hoentjen 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{Marcel de Jong 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{Jan de Haan 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{André Disselhorst 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{Eric Smith 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{Sander Hoentjen 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{Arjan Veenstra 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{Sander Hoentjen 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{Eric Smith 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{Christ van Willegen 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{Jan de Haan 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [1] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{André Disselhorst 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [2] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} And there is Handheld-linux.com, who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{Eric Smith 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT?
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{Michel van Horssen 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and Steve from openmoko came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{Christ van Willegen 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{Peter Hageman 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{Christ van Willegen 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{Eric Spierings 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{Arjan Veenstra 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in Belgium. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{Marcel de Jong 28/04} Just commenting to add this link to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{Eddy Boer 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{Marcel de Jong 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post.
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{Eddy Boer 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{Marcel de Jong 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken.
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{Jan de Haan 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):

{Jan de Haan 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).

{Theo Martens 08/05}
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.

{Marcel de Jong 13/05}
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found this post from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack.
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome!
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)

Christph Pulster wrote:> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.

This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos
about the gifts too)...

I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.

Belgium

{Yorick 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.

{Yorick 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:

Pavel Kovář>> best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then
pack and ship.
1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg. Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.

England

{Tim Coggins 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.

Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. Darksatanic 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. Strolls 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. Strolls 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{Tim Coggins 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. Darksatanic 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like Darksatanic - let me know if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). Strolls 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{Marcel de Jong 19/04} I received an idea from User:Jan de Haan. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{Sander Hoentjen 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{Marcel de Jong 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{Jan de Haan 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{Marcel de Jong 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{André Disselhorst 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{Eric Smith 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{Sander Hoentjen 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{Marcel de Jong 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{Arjan Veenstra 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{Sander Hoentjen 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{Eric Smith 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{Christ van Willegen 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{Jan de Haan 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [1] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{André Disselhorst 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [2] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{Marcel de Jong 23/04} And there is Handheld-linux.com, who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{Eric Smith 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT?
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{Michel van Horssen 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and Steve from openmoko came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{Christ van Willegen 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{Marcel de Jong 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{Peter Hageman 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{Christ van Willegen 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{Eric Spierings 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{Arjan Veenstra 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in Belgium. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{Marcel de Jong 28/04} Just commenting to add this link to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{Eddy Boer 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{Marcel de Jong 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post.
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{Jan de Haan 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.

{Michel van Horssen 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{Eddy Boer 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{Marcel de Jong 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken.
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{Jan de Haan 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):

{Jan de Haan 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).

{Theo Martens 08/05}
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.

{Marcel de Jong 13/05}
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found this post from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack.
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome!
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)

Christph Pulster wrote:> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.

This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos
about the gifts too)...

I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur

{Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.

{Michel van Horssen 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.

Belgium

{Yorick 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.

{Yorick 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:

Pavel Kovář>> best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then
pack and ship.
1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg. Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.