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Sorry, Demi, thought I was being obvious enough with what I was doing. I should have suspected you'd come out. :P

To be honest, I'm just taking Sansker's arguments about Force and turning them around to showcase how absurd his arguments have become. You're right, I do like Fate, as I like *all* the characters (though Vivid is trying my limits). But that's also because I'm honest with myself in looking over the information given to us thus far, and seeing that there is no real issue with Hucks.

As you noted, liking or not is subjective. What isn't, are the things Sansker is trying to argue, about us not having information that we were indeed given. It's fine for Sansker to not like Force or the Hucks; but lying about specific information we were given *multiple times* is disingenuous, and unhelpful to those who come here looking for information.

Sorry you felt dragged you into this. :P

Either you're not good with sarcasm or I'm not good at picking it up. Guess I wasn't needed after all.

On a side note, it's so much better to focus and discuss the things you do like, rather than what you don't. Unless you're trying to be a critic.

The Hückebein seem to be rather inconsistent. First they don’t care if they kill SD6 members but then they do. First they don’t mind killing any people that is unlucky enough to cross path with them and later they do. First they want the Silver Cross no matter what and then they don’t… yeah consistency, right there. Just saying guys, is a matter of what you like better. I think we can agree on that we can’t agree on this.

The Huckebein are consistent. They haven't killed any TSAB members with them preventing angering the organization to send more forces after them. Stella even said what they did with the previous encounters: batter them a little and then shake them off like always. They do not want the TSAB to focus all their attention on them. Right now, they have SS6, and they don't want anymore to join the investigation. Curren in chapter 17 I think, in a video after the Vandein Raid clearly told the TSAB not to get involved or just pretend that they are if possible.

They don't want the silver cross specifically, but the carrier of the Zero genome, which Thoma has. Curren leaves him alone for now, believing that they will have another chance have him join them. Right now, she sends him messages with the latest on this gathering she wants him to come to. This has all been brought up before by others.

Also, on another matter, I don't think we should count this current confratation a second SS6 vs. Huckebein. Curren, Veyron and Sonica only came to either eliminate or capture Hardis, but he later proved to be a formidable opponent for them. They knew they had only a limited amount of time before being detected. Now that they have, they need to retreat because they don't want to seriously injure any of SS6 because of Thoma. Of course, SS6 won't let them leave, so some conflict will insure, just that they are fighting to get out than defeat enemies.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by Sansker

Fate is being hate here a little, but if she is like the Numbers, as Nanya says, they why they get a free pass and she doesn’t?

That's the problem we've been trying to point out to you, Sansker. You're trying to give Fate a free pass, while denying that to others like the Numbers and the Hucks (and RF6, and Vandin and practically everyone else).

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The Hückebein seem to be rather inconsistent. First they don’t care if they kill SD6 members but then they do. First they don’t mind killing any people that is unlucky enough to cross path with them and later they do. First they want the Silver Cross no matter what and then they don’t… yeah consistency, right there. Just saying guys, is a matter of what you like better. I think we can agree on that we can’t agree on this.

And this was explained to you: They *do* care about who and what they kill. Signum wasn't killed, despite Cypha having the opportunity to. Curren didn't kill Hayate. They know damn well what they are doing, and the tightrope they are walking.

See, when you kill people, their friends and family get really upset, and want to kill you back. This can become a problem in places, like say, the US in a place like Iraq. You need to stop a gathering mob, but if you resort to lethal force, it will just make the problem worse. You just want to injure or scare them off, because then it is MUCH less likely the friends and family will want to kill you.

Curren knows this, although the Hucks don't do it for altrusim, but because if they start killing TSAB personnel, they know the Bureau will come down on them hard. Right now, it's just Hayate and RF6. And with some threats and bluster, she may just get them off her back.

They DO kill other people, though, in the course of their work (and when the virus compels them to, although those conditions are still shrouded in a bit of mystery). But considering they are mercenaries, that is just what they do. There are most likely thousands of people out there at the edge of Bureau space, or beyond it, engaging in lawless murdering. The Bureau isn't a peacekeeping operation; their primary duty is securing lost logia. Hell, Orussia is in a bloody civil war inside Bureau space, and the Bureau does nothing about it. So, killing other people isn't as big of a deal.

So you get it now? I really don't know how much straighter I can make this. Everyone here knows this, so it's really only you that doesn't. Continuing to try and argue this point will either let people know you are a troll, or that you just don't want to learn. I don't really think you want to be either. Either way, it will decrease their willingness to talk to you or consider any points you may make.

And if you'd learn to accept that, then I think you'd make a fine poster here. And wouldn't you rather have that?

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Originally Posted by Demi.

On a side note, it's so much better to focus and discuss the things you do like, rather than what you don't. Unless you're trying to be a critic.

See my title to the left? :P I have drifted into the critic role lately, and I can name a few issues with Force because of that. But Sanskers complaints have long been addressed.

But that makes the story all the weakest. The main villains don’t want to hurt the heroes, they assume with bad and bland emails will make a guy turn on his family and friends and let the treasure go for fear that, maybe all the other will chase them.

No, it’s still inconsistent. At first was to get the Silver Cross, then was to get Thoma and now is to get revenge on Hardis who happens to have superpowers because why the fuck no? Did they didn’t test him when he was send in to prison for weapons or any kind of magic? How they could miss that?

I do get what you mean about “not wanting the TSAB to chase them” but I just don’t buy it, because is a weak and lame excuse for them to just not finish the good guys and makes the good guys look like they can’t even put their way up to the bad guys without plot convenience help. And that is not my liking. Every single time I just see the Huckebein being so powerful and mighty when we only see SD6 failing and missing details: like getting Hardis and the Grendels in to jail but not being able to check they put weapons and cloths up in their ass to break out. The Huckenein did change their minds in several episodes and even act completely opposite to the previous ones. Cypha happily says “yes I kill every single man woman and child on that village” and then Arnage is “How terrible, you kill them all”, how is that being consisting? and they already kill officers for that matter

Just because they have no problem killing doesn't mean that they have to like it.

To be fair, Sansker, name one season of Nanoha where the main bad guy wanted to hurt the good guys.

S1 - Precia just wanted the Jewel Seeds to get to Al Hazard, Fate just wanted to get her mother's approval. Fate even gave Nanoha several chances to walk away.

A's - The Wolkenritter were trying to collect pages for the Book of Darkness, because it was all they knew how to do to help Hayate, even then, they didn't want to hurt Nanoha or Fate.

StrikerS - Scagiletti, after attacking in episode 17, only did so to get Vivio, and even flat out said "we won't attack anyone who's trying to retreat". Now, about the cradle in the sky, yeah, that probably would have allowed him to do a lot.

ViVid - Einhart, when she was the main antagonist (for 2-3 chapters), just beat Nove and Vivio up in a fight and that was it. (then she became a good guy)

So, really, the Hucks not hurting the good guys in Force (other than Signum in the hospital and Hayate probably needing stitches in her side) permanently just goes along with what's been established in the series.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by Sansker

But that makes the story all the weakest. The main villains don’t want to hurt the heroes, they assume with bad and bland emails will make a guy turn on his family and friends and let the treasure go for fear that, maybe all the other will chase them.

So, according to you, it's either inconsistent or weak? How inconsistent and weak is Fate, then, who will say, "I'm sorry" as she blasts Nanoha, and actively tries to kill her. I'm gonna take a wild guess, then, and say you judge Fate differently, or rather, you hold Fate to different standards. That's hypocritical.

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No, it’s still inconsistent. At first was to get the Silver Cross, then was to get Thoma and now is to get revenge on Hardis who happens to have superpowers because why the fuck no?

Why can't it be all that? Why must you assume that they can only ever have one motive and one goal at any one time? It's fairly apparently that Curren's duty is to her outcast Eclipse family, and that's why she's going after Thoma (the book and genome being cool extras), and to get revenge on the guy screwing around with Eclipse people. Look at her as someone protecting her family, and it will all make sense.

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Did they didn’t test him when he was send in to prison for weapons or any kind of magic? How they could miss that?

I haven't read that far, but considering mages can easily hide things in subspace and summon them at will, it's not surprising.

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I do get what you mean about “not wanting the TSAB to chase them” but I just don’t buy it, because is a weak and lame excuse for them to just not finish the good guys and makes the good guys look like they can’t even put their way up to the bad guys without plot convenience help.

And Fate is equally lame for not finishing off Nanoha. You may argue differently, but I just don't buy it, because it is a weak and lame excuse. Because, really, who else would simply injure the good guy in an attempt to scare them into backing off? What kind of lame bad guy would do that?

Ok, not the same person, but yes the same group and they did wanted to stop the fake Hückebein so I still say, this is my point: they seem to care or not without a wimp. What I am saying is that the excuse of “not killing because it might set things worse” is old and not really worth it. Is an old excuse and is bad here as in any other place were it has been use for that reason. And no matter how many times you say is right, is not going to feel right for me. What you don’t get is that I am just sharing my thoughts on the matter.

Yes, I know that Nanya, but there has been always something else that actually force the character in to an intense battle. Here the bad guys aren’t even going to try and just run all the time: why? They can’t hurt SD6 members so they can’t fight them for real. The first two seasons get away with it because the main antagonist were good nature people force to fight the main heroine because of some special circumstance. StrikerS didn’t get away with it when Quattro just says they are going to kill a lot of people and who the hell care, and since they already kill TSAB officers in the past Jail’s actions with that “no to attack” are being inconsistent with his main goal of get rid of the TSAB and just be left alone to do things. It was stupid there and didn’t make sense.

The same here. The Hückebein already kill officers and innocent people but they don’t want to kill the SD6 even when they could and get Thoma back? Why not? Oh, yes, because the manga will be too short. That is how I feel it, a cheap excuse that isn’t a real plot setting but just something to prevent the series from ending that fast.

And no is not the same as the first season. Fate wasn’t a murder, she was a small child. So she didn’t want to kill, because she never kill in the past. And yes mage can hide thinks but don’t you think an organization that always holds mage prisoners will have ways to prevent them from doing that? I mean otherwise they will all go when the idiots just leaves them alone. So yes, kind of plot convenience here.

And yes, they can have more than one goal. Of course, but why then they just go so random about it. First the Silver Cross, but then they are like “nah, maybe later” why didn’t they kill Hardis and then go to get the Silver Cross if they don’t need it to kill the guy as far as they know? Is this that holds me from getting on to the story. But is my take on it. We have mass murders being afraid to kill or even showing remorse here and not caring there. Then we have the elite unit of mages being both the best of the best and the large group of idiots the world have ever seen, when they let mages go in jail without check them and just assume it will be fine.

Guys, I think we are going nowhere with this. I don’t want this to end bad, so I am just going to share something more right here: I don’t like the series and you do. That is perfect. You can keep it, and I hope you guys enjoy what comes out and maybe it might recover my interest, who knows? But I will also point how do I feel and maybe I am looking on this as what I wanted to see and not what it really is. I did try to take it on its own merits but to be fair the story has already being done, there are several things that I think are flaws and excuses made as quick cover ups and the characters aren’t likeable to me. That is it. You guys of course think different and I don’t think that is a reason why we should get matters in to a discussion. Let’s just share our feelings on it and maybe point out what do we see as bad and good about it. Not trying to convince the other but rather to see how things can be seen from another point of view.

Concerning the Huckebein's unwillingness to actively hurt/kill SS6 members, their reasons for doing so isn't some moral quandry--they haven't got a problem fighting them if they have to; DeVille didn't have an issue trying to backstab Nanoha.

Their unwillingness is simply a matter of pragmatism. Not a peacekeeping force, sure, but the Bureau is very much like a police force. And the police are very much like hornets--kill one and you've accomplished in severely pissing off the rest. The Huckebein could very easily wipe out Hayate and crew if they absolutely had to.

But they know that if they did, the whole of the Bureau would come down upon them. And given how effective the Bureau was in StrikerS (brought down an invincible weapon that had literally ended the bloodiest war in Bureau history), the Huckebein would be crushed in very short order. And they don't want that.

Then we have the elite unit of mages being both the best of the best and the large group of idiots the world have ever seen, when they let mages go in jail without check them and just assume it will be fine.

Well, we haven't seen much Eclipse weapon demonstration and explanation. Thoma's weapons are always on him in that bracelet that he can't remove. Vardis might have something similar that he was able to sneak by without causing suspicion. That's my two scents. Lucky for SS6, he doesn't seem to want to leave. In fact, he is quite content being in jail. Actually, maybe, that's a bad thing.

Yes those are valuable arguments but I say doesn’t hold up to the evidence. And they have been said that the Hückebein and the SD6 can live together in peace, so they are trying to make peace with them? If that is the case why they don’t offer a deal the good guys can agree? I mean they keep acting like “yeah we are such a big deal and we don’t want to hurt you so go away” when that approach only seems to get the good guys more and more determinate on chasing them, so showing up and scare them didn’t work, what the Hückebein do? Keep showing up and scare them and even send more e-mails to Thoma, because that has been working, right?

Yeah, not that much. And the TSAB feels like a bunch of really ineffective mages to be honest. They could not hold the Cradle if wasn’t for the Section Six and without them I don’t think there is a single people on the TSAB that can stop the Hückebein. They will kill the Three Aces, their best mages, what they are going to send now. Yunno? I don’t think so. Again the story gives cover ups like this and feels force with the tone the series try to apply here, a more serious treat with actual villains that kill and do what they need to do to get the job done. Even killing officers and, I insist on this, the Hückebein already did that.

And if Hardis had one of those, won't the SD6 notice it and then put a heavy guard or at least keep it close so doesn't happen the same that happen with the Grendels?

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

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Originally Posted by Sansker

Here the bad guys aren’t even going to try and just run all the time: why? They can’t hurt SD6 members so they can’t fight them for real.

Why fight when you don't have to? "He fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. " It's a fairly poor strategist, if they can't see the value in knowing when to retreat.

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The first two seasons get away with it because the main antagonist were good nature people force to fight the main heroine because of some special circumstance.

It could be argued (and has) that the Hucks are good-natured people forced to fight (or, in this case, kill). Would you blame someone with cancer for collapsing in pain? Much like the Wolkies, their very nature is what makes them who they are.

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StrikerS didn’t get away with it when Quattro just says they are going to kill a lot of people and who the hell care, and since they already kill TSAB officers in the past Jail’s actions with that “no to attack” are being inconsistent with his main goal of get rid of the TSAB and just be left alone to do things. It was stupid there and didn’t make sense.

And weren't you just saying we should stop talking about StrikerS in this thread? You're very inconsistent, you know that?

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The same here. The Hückebein already kill officers and innocent people but they don’t want to kill the SD6 even when they could and get Thoma back? Why not? Oh, yes, because the manga will be too short. That is how I feel it, a cheap excuse that isn’t a real plot setting but just something to prevent the series from ending that fast.

You're partially right... Say the Hucks kill RF6... the TSAB then sends a ton of warships and mages after them, armed with the experimental weaponry. The Hucks die in one chapter. End of Manga. So, your reasoning is, at the least, just as cheap and unreal as what you fight against.

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And no is not the same as the first season. Fate wasn’t a murder, she was a small child. So she didn’t want to kill, because she never kill in the past.

While conveniently ignoring the fact that Nanoha might have very well died, or perhaps suffered brain damage in her very first meeting with Fate. Remember that? She fell from a great height and Yuuno had to catch her with a floater field. The damage was severe enough, even with that, to lay her out for quite awhile and leave her weakened.

And you're also ignoring their final fight, where Fate's scythe nearly took Nanoha's head off, and then she opened up a can of Phalanx Shift on Nanoha, realizing that she couldn't hold back if she wanted to win. Even if she didn't kill, she still could have severely injured Nanoha.

And if you still have difficultly believing Fate was okay with killing, the Movie Manga showed her outright killing the the jewel seed kitten. The thing was dead at her feet, blood pooling around it and flowing down the stairs.

Need I go on? Because I have more.

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And yes, they can have more than one goal. Of course, but why then they just go so random about it. First the Silver Cross, but then they are like “nah, maybe later”

Already answered. But you're not a very good strategist. Why engage in combat, when you can get what you want without fighting?

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why didn’t they kill Hardis and then go to get the Silver Cross if they don’t need it to kill the guy as far as they know?

They didn't know Hardis was behind it, until Curren interrogated a guy *after* RF6 got Thoma. Curren realizes she can easily get Thoma back with a threat, and so decides to spend their fighting capital against Hardis instead.

This is all in the manga, by the way. Which everyone here knows. Except you.

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Is this that holds me from getting on to the story. But is my take on it. We have mass murders being afraid to kill or even showing remorse here and not caring there.

Not afraid. Being smart. Go ahead, start killing people. We'll wait here. What do you think will happen if you go on a killing spree? Or perhaps you just decide to kill cops? How much angrier and more determined do you think the police will be to stop you?

And yet, you somehow think that killing cops would be the smart thing to do.

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Then we have the elite unit of mages being both the best of the best and the large group of idiots the world have ever seen, when they let mages go in jail without check them and just assume it will be fine.

You don't look at extra materials, so you wouldn't know this, but they do seal the magic of those they put into jail. However, those are magical measures, and Hardis surprised them by showing he has anti-magic properties. How well does magic work on Eclipse-infected ant-magic people again?

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Guys, I think we are going nowhere with this. I don’t want this to end bad, so I am just going to share something more right here: I don’t like the series and you do. That is perfect. You can keep it, and I hope you guys enjoy what comes out and maybe it might recover my interest, who knows?

Liking the series or not, is a perfectly fine and subjective thing. We have several people here who don't care too much for Force. Nanya doesn't like it too much, for starters. We never had a problem with that. But at least people like Nanya know what's true and what is false.

I, myself, have a few issues with the series. Our problem was only in pointing out how you were incorrect on several of your assertions.

Edit: With regards to the Cradle, the Bureau was able to destroy it. The only issue was getting their ships there in time. And even if the Cradle did reach orbit, Yuuno only said it might be a match for the fleet; not that it would win hands down. I figure if the Cradle reached orbit, Chrono might have lost some, or even most, of his fleet. But they would have destroyed the Cradle. Pretty much all they needed was an arc-en-ciel shot at worst. The time limit was the fact that, once it reached orbit, it could easily annihilate people on the surface. Jail was aiming for hostages. So, if you ask why the Hucks don't just kill Bureau people? Well, you might want to ask Jail how well that worked for him. As soon as he launched that cradle, he got the entire fleet on his ass.

To be fair, the Cradle was literally out of left field for everyone. No one knew where it was, no one could've known that Jail found it and had already secured a way into utilizing it as a superweapon.

But the thing is, even though it was out of left field, the Bureau was still effective in shutting down the plot and destroying the Cradle before it could be effectively used.

Alright, Kaijo, no need to be sarcastic and attack him. Sansker has proven to be just discussing his concerns about the manga.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

To be fair, the Cradle was literally out of left field for everyone. No one knew where it was, no one could've known that Jail found it and had already secured a way into utilizing it as a superweapon.

But the thing is, even though it was out of left field, the Bureau was still effective in shutting down the plot and destroying the Cradle before it could be effectively used.

Only with RF6, they could have fought as well as they did, that is true. It didn't change that many average soldiers knew next to nothing about AMF gadgets, even Subaru's father said as much. They had to get a quick crash course while fighting these things while having Hayate's leadership in the air. The ground forces had neither of those.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

When someone comes into the thread with the state desire of wanting to discuss and understand, and yet spends the entirety of it not listening to what is being stated, a valid form of argument is to show how the person's own actions relate to their arguments.

And I pointed out the Bureau could handle the Cradle, RF6 or no. The only issue is the casualties they'd take. Jail only wanted it to hold Mid-Childa hostage, so he could conduct his experiments in peace.

I might be incorrect on some issues, ok, but when I start to give away my opinion on it, you were proclaiming that I am just a troll or an idiot. You already call me a terrible possible writer and a terrible strategist only because I don’t agree with how you see it and you assume that is the only logical path and way to proceed. I try to explain myself but every time I try I had to go back and explain more and the idea lost itself. Yes, I know about StrikerS but you also keep bringing it up, so I just go with it, sorry.

I don’t get problems if we go on matters of facts, but you are taking matters of opinion as facts and saying they are like this because you say they are like this, and I already tell you this is my take on the subject. I am just trying to explain why I think that way, I am not saying you should think like me. That what I call expressing an opinion. We are trying to force our opinion on others, I did at first, and you do it now.

Hey, look at this. You say let’s make the Hückebein family kill the SD6. Ok, and you tell me the TSAB sends the ships and kills them. But they already discover how to made more Eclipse and they unleashed on the mages troopers and start to create an epidemic of the virus and they the fleet has to stop that and the Hückebein get away. That could happen as well. Why? Because is takes on what might happen that you and I have no way to know what could happen as well. Why? Because is takes on what might happen that you and I have nothing to really back it up because is our take on the matter.

Later on you say, Nanoha might die. Yes? And what makes you think Fate didn’t knew Yunno were there to catch her or that she would if he wasn’t there. That is right, is your take on the matter, so mine is also valid because it could be as well. And the same goes for the rest. How can we know Fate did try to kill Nanoha? I could assume she was skill enough to just make sure she was hurt. I mean for that reasons we assume Cypha did knew cutting Signum in half, smashing her on the ground and then throwing a sword on her stomach won’t kill her, I mean that is just a minor injury, right? I mean is not like she was trying to kill her, right? Because that will be a very bad strategy according to you, Kaijo. So… what is up with that?

Also, killing a cat, and killing a person isn’t the same. For that reason, why she didn’t kill Jail in StrikerS? Yes, I know, but we are talking about Fate who doesn’t come out that much on Force, so I need to bring things from previous seasons. And the thing about the Hückebein getting Thoma without fighting. I mean, ok, the guy does seem idiot enough to fall for a simple trick and join them but is a bit of a risk to take with one of the important things like the cero factor and the Silver Cross.

Back to the Hückebein fighting Harids. So they didn’t know until they attack Vandin… so why they attack there? Because off camera they were thinking something wasn’t right. That is ok, but seems to be just confusing. IF this is just the beginning why you guys didn’t wait and let us see the signs they were being use and betray before we just go there. Well maybe Thoma did give that away when he told them about the duo of the blade and the book that wasn’t Curren or Veyron, so I guess there I can’t really argue but is a little vague and doesn’t seem to be taken serious for them. There I just say, well done but a little underplay.

Yeah, you know, there is a movie call The Dark Knight were a criminal kill a lot of cops and they decide to turn on Batman instead of the killer, Joker. Seems isn’t such a bad idea, and if you consider they have superpowers and are immune to the magic might as well serve as a better distraction and a treath that they might release Eclipse on a populated city. So yes, it can be also consider a strategy here, isn’t just something idiotic to me. But what do I know. Again, my take on the matter that isn’t the same as yours.

And I do know they seal magic. They say it with Lutecia and the limiters can be easy set to not allow magic at all. But then again, if they know Hardis might be related to the Eclipse, why they didn’t check his blood and make some tests? Here is a special elite unit, not the guard of the mall. So could be done. Maybe Hardis was able to hide it, I don’t know. I will admit that is something that I can give away. The one with the Grendels I won’t because they already knew they were not mage so there is no excuse for not putting a better security on them. Yeah they stop the Grendel but after they cause damage for who knows how much and maybe risk the life of the guards there.

And that is it. MY take on the subject. You have your own version and I have mine, and look how different they are. I can’t go around assuming my take on it is the right one because is not a matter of being right or wrong is a matter of opinion.

I mean for that reasons we assume Cypha did knew cutting Signum in half, smashing her on the ground and then throwing a sword on her stomach won’t kill her, I mean that is just a minor injury, right? I mean is not like she was trying to kill her, right? Because that will be a very bad strategy according to you, Kaijo. So… what is up with that?

Kudos to you Sansker for pointing something so glaringly obvious. Unless Cypha somehow explains otherwise her killing intent was unavoidably evident, there's no way she could assume Signum would survive the injuries she caused to her (heck, even the writer put in doubt she would make it for an entire month). Unless Cypha somehow knows how to miss the vitals of someone by impaling it on the center of the abdominal area from such distance i won't buy that she purpousfully spared Signum's live. Sorry, the "but she didn't go down and decapitated her" excuse is pretty weak.

Or Cypha's a bitch who will break orders if she can get away with it. Not like Curren was around at the time to say anything.

Yup, that's more likely. The Hucks only started it's "don't kill S6 members" police until Tohma enrolled with the heroes, before that they didn't seem to have qualms about killing or threatening someone with death (specially notorious during Cypha and Signum's lame reamtch where the Huckebein's Ace showed a very different behavior compared with their first confrontation).