00:44 - ApothecaryI never saw the appeal of Pallbearer. Ok music, but not worth the enormous praise they've been getting by some. Didn't ever impress me much on album and when I saw them live with Deafheaven I wasn't really won over either

Original post

I think Rock just had an influence of what Heavy Metal would be later, but in my opinion Metal is a totally new genere (not just a sub-genere) with its own characteristcs, way distinct from Rock. Even thou Hard Rock is very similar to Heavy Metal.

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

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They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

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Sometimes in metal they have called me:
The Minneapolis Metal Music Examiner -I write articles on metal in the MN area for Examiner.com
The Metal Detector -A history of digging up old forgotten metal bands
Thrash Master -Famous for my Walls O' Thrash

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

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They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

Bathory was influenced by Sabbath, Motorhead, and Charged G.B.H. early Sabbath for Atmosphere, Motorhead for energy, and G.B.H. for speed.

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.

so sayeth Quorthon... and the punk influence is clear enough for anyone who's heard "you don't move me ( i don't give a fuck)". and thrash had yet to register on his radar when he hit the studio for his first primitive recordings.

Early Bathory sounds like blackened Thrash Metal.
As for Quorthon having been influenced by Venom or not, we'll never know the real story. I believe he heard old school Thrash before Bathory recorded their first album.

----
They shake your hand and they smile and they buy you a drink
They say we'll be your friends we'll stick with you till the end
But everybody's only looking out for themselves
And you say who can you trust I'll tell you nobody

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

This is very true.

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Sometimes in metal they have called me:
The Minneapolis Metal Music Examiner -I write articles on metal in the MN area for Examiner.com
The Metal Detector -A history of digging up old forgotten metal bands
Thrash Master -Famous for my Walls O' Thrash

I disagree that they can be traced back to Sabbath for anything more than power chords, in theory bands today can not trace anything but that back to Sabbath, take say Stratovarius so influenced by Classical, where can they trace that back to? Certainly NOT Black Sabbath AT ALL. I would argue that Black Sabbath exhibits Very little of what we call metal, and that calling Sabbath metal would make ANYTHING WITH POWER CHORDS metal. We know that this is not remotely accurate, but since there are so many Sabbath fans here I must quit while I'm ahead. lol

Let me provide an analogy to your argument by using biological evolution. I know this wont appear relevant as it is a completely different topic, but it is exactly the same principal because evolution involves developing on an ancestors traits into something more suitable for it's changing environment.

Note how mammals share a common ancestry with sea squirts (tunicates) back down the evolutionary tree. Mammals and sea squirts are different, but share a common backbone (of sorts). This can be similar to what you are saying with power chords in metal. All it takes in numerous metal bands to develop a bands sound such as Sabbath for example, to pave an "evolutionary tree" for future metal genres to develop.

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).

And from death, came melodic death, black metal (not too long after early death was created), and so on.

False. Black Metal has squat to do with Death Metal. The first band to play Black Metal is Bathory and it was directly influenced by Thrash, not Death. Death Metal didn't even exist back then. Years later, the early Norwegian BM bands took the basis created by Bathory and expanded upon it. Death Metal has nothing to do in the development of BM.

I stand corrected then.

Don't worry. It's a common mistake. People have a tendency to lump Black and Death together, most likely because both are extreme genres, while they kinda developped in a parallel way.
Both are rooted in Thrash, however. But Thrash branched in two main directions, one being Black and the other Death.

Also, keep in mind that many bands mix Black and Death nowadays.

There was, however, a period where the embryonic stages of both were heavily intertwined and often blended together, an the terms death metal nad black metal were used to describe bands in a manner that today would be seen as wrong. Back in those days though, the borders were often more fluid. Necrovore, for example, was described as both a black and death metal band at the time, as was Mayhem (one of the famous live posters from the early days, for instance, refers to them as the death metal kings from Norway).

yes but those two terms was often mixed by mass media,people that didnt really give shit is it death or black...or they have by mistake mixed these two terms.....

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"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"

Nope, Angel Reaper at the time those two were used by people who were totally into the undergound. And of course the second wave of black metal also started cause they thought death metal had become live metal with the way they dressed (sneakers and such) and the sound being too slick. The second wave bands said they played the true death metal.

----Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

Well i do saw a lot of tv clips from that days that described Bathory,Immortal,Mayhem... as Death Metal...........

Immortal and Mayhem demos WERE death metal as was Marduk and Darkthrone. And old Bathory was just Venom rip off crap.
Like I was saying the 2nd wave did evolve out of death metal. They even considered themselves death metal. They all wanted to emulate early death, possessed, morbid angel.

----Member of the true crusade against European Flower Metal

Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is out of sight
Dawn Crosby (r.i.p.)
05.04.1963 - 15.12.1996

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Void_EaterAccount deleted

07.05.2011 - 04:57

Void_EaterAccount deleted

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't black metal develop from Bathory more than any other band? As in, not from death metal?

Not that I was there, but musically black metal evolved from thrash. Maybe the culture or scenes between black and death were very similar, but to my knowledge expanding on Venom and Bathory was what created the black metal movement.

@ Marcel yes i am completely aware that their early stuff were death metal .....I was just talking about the genres definitions were often mixed it that days even by artist themselves ....Shit even Quorthon described Bathory 1989 like Death and Trash metal.....not black......
As far as the Norwegians in 1990's they have labeled themselves as black.....http://www.anus.com/metal/about/history/

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"Cross is only an iron,hope is just an illusion,freedom is nothing but a name..."
"Build your walls of the dead stone...Build your roofs of a dead wood..Build your dreams of a dead thoughts"

Yardbirds, Kinks, Who, Cream, Hendrix, Zeppelin and other Blues/Hardrock from Mid 60s to Early 70s are the basis of metal, but it started in the aftermath of Punk that metal was an own genre, with the New Wave Of British Metal and Overkill (Motörhead) in 1979.

I hate to point out the obvious, but you're arguing about metaphors. Evolution is a biological model of life forms with a physical connections to the chain of evolution: they are born and give birth. Music doesn't work this way. Metal didn't "evolve" from rock in any real, concrete way. Black Sabbath aren't the "fathers" of doom; Ozzy Osbourne is the father of his two children. A piece of music has no direct causal connection to another piece, though it may carry some influence through a complex chain of people hearing and making music.

Sure, it can still make sense to discuss different models and compare your ways of understanding metal's evolution. But there's no point in arguing back and forth about what really evolved from what, because it's all metaphorical. The kind of information RavenKing and Marcel are discussing is very interesting, and I'm sure there's even more to it. But ultimately, you'll be discussing the statements, intentions and personal influences of individual musicians, some long dead, and it's very difficult to get to the bottom of those. Two bands playing in the same movement might claim to have completely different influences and inspiration, for example. How will you decide which is the "correct" course of metal's evolution?

There was this site called map of metal which had all genres and stuff connected, i don't know if it was right but it was kinda cool but it seems to have problems now or it's just gone. I hope not, i liked the chart-thing they did with this world map and every metal genre had it's own land so to speak.

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...And so death to the falsity of thy former rulers. Thy kingdom of "heaven" burns in a field of fire, and Dentura is the one true God thou must yield thy hearts and souls to in absolute submission. It is his ultimate decree and will unto thee..