-Alex Koslov and Shawn Riddick (under a Russina nae) def. Topgun and T.J. Perkins
-B-Boy def. Scorpio Sky
-Scott Lost over Jimmy Yang
-Disco Machine, Ronin and Nemesis def. Generico, Tornado and Quicksilver
-Steen and Sabin went to a no contest after Joey Ryan interfered.
-Christopher Daniels over Rocky Romero
-Super Dragon and Davey Richards vs. Los Luchas went to a no contest when Dragon went insane powerbominb people through tables, attacking Dino Windwood, threatend Travis' life, and may or may not have shanked someone.
-Chris Bosh over Joey Ryan via Countout as Joey pretended to be hurt. Some fat chick's tits fell out of her tanktop and I threw up.

A lot of people are talking about the show being bad, but it really wasn't terrible as people are making it out to be(I.E. Todd Martin at the WO who says he's going to watch a shitty MMA event over a good wrestling event ). Daniels/Romero wasn't as weak as I was expecting it to be, but it could of been better. It seemed like it ended right as things where picking up. Nice to see Daniels bust out a put away finsiher. Yang/Lost seemed off a few times but they did a good job at covering things up. Some of the kicks Scott took where brutal, especialy the spin kick he took when coming off the top rope. And the swerve at the end by Yang was awesome. B-Boy/Sky was really good, and I love the setup for Sky's heel turn. The Six Man was my MOTN as everyone looked good in it. The Tope into a Tornado DDT by Generico going in between the bottom and middle rope on Nemesis was an awesome spot.

Now for the "bad" stuff of the show. First off, the Russian guy with Alex Koslov looked pretty off, and didn't seem to know what to do at times. He wasn't bad, but I heard he hasn't wrestled in months so I guess he can slide. The complaining about the booking on other boards is rediculous as people don't like having more than one DQ or countout on a show. I'll talk about the tag match later. The booking of the title scene was well done, and things where being setup nicely. I didn't think it was wise to go on with what seemed to be the planned finish in the main event after the tag match but it did serve it's purpose. The beatdown on Joey and the shaving of his mustache gave it the old school feel. I don't mind the setup as it was done right, and it's rare that people see count outs used for the advantages of heels in title matches. Good stuff in my mind, and I don't understand why others are so bothered by it.

Now for the tag title match. Things did start out well. Dragon and Davey where working well with Los Luchas until it seemed like Phoenix got hurt on a curb stomp and the crowd was pretty dead. I'm sure the table powerbomb was planned or atleast a work for a possible way to help add to the story of the match but the referee Aaron Hassan looked too confused and didn't seem to know what he was doing. If anything, this segment was saved by Dragon as he not only kept in character, but also got the crowd back into the show. Zokre and Phoenix didn't look unwilling to take the table bumps at all and Dino Windwood sold Dragon's punch really well. I really hope Los Luchas get another chance against Dragon and Davey, this time without the messed up finsih caused by the referee.

I never said the show was terrible. I said it was the worst PWG event I've been to, and it was. That's not the most damning of criticism given PWG puts on very good shows. The wrestling was under the usual standard, and the booking was well under the usual standard. The effort was as strong as usual. One can be a fan or even a big fan of a promotion and not have to go crazy with praise for every show or lineup. One thing I really like about SoCal fans as opposed to Northeast fans is that they are more respectful towards the wrestlers and the other fans. The flip side of that is that they aren't as willing to say when something stinks, and it makes them more likely to be taken advantage of. Most people can see *constructive* criticism for what it is.

Here's the thing though, you didn't offer anything constructive. You just wrote in results that had little to no details and made the show seem like it was worse then it is. And if you didn't think the show was terrible, you probably should of noted that in your report as you came off as if you just got back from the worst show ever. And to even think the UFC PPV will be any good is laughable.

And as far as your point about SoCal fans not willing to say something stinks, you're wrong on that. Fans here aren't affraid to admit something sucks, but they don't do it as often because they aren't as uptight about wrestling as most people. Either that, or they don't feel that the shows are bad or there was anything wrong with the show.

"1. Dmitri Masarsjy and Alex Koslov beat Top Gun Talwar and TJ Perkins when Koslov made Talwar submit. There was some funny stuff from Talwar here, and this was more fun than I expected it to be.

2. B-Boy beat Scorpio Sky with a backslide. This started off slow, but picked up well towards the finish. Scorpio is in the midst of a heel turn after costing Human Tornado a match last month. He still got cheered by some of the crowd.

3. Scott Lost beat Jimmy Yang. After Yang missed a sky twister press, Lost used a crucifix cradle for the pin. Yang and Lost shook hands after the match, but Yang proceeded to attack Lost. Yang looked really crisp.

4. Disco Machine, Ronin and Nemesis beat Human Tornado, El Generico, Quicksilver. There was all sorts of hilarity here. Nemesis has been on the heel side his entire tenure in PWG, but he

I actually kinda agree with you in most of the matches, Todd. I personally felt the B-Boy vs. Scorpio match ran longer than it should've. Sabin and Steen I felt didn't have that bad of a match, although I agree that it could've been better. I'm glad you thought Daniels and Romero had a solid technical match because I'm sure a lot of people will say otherwise. And I liked that Daniels was victorious after using Last Rites, which I felt hadn't been used as the definitive finisher in a very long time. Bosh and Ryan didn't have the greatest match in the world, but I felt at least Ryan put forth a better effort than in his match against Kanyon. While the finish was lame, I liked the follow up with Sabin and Steen helping Bosh shave Ryan's mustache and chest. Yeah, I was right there litereally next to Bosh when he pulled his pants down enough for his ass to hang out.

I had fun, but I of the three PWG shows I've been too (the others being Battle of Los Angeles and Astonishing X-Mas), this would rank at the bottom.

Given I praised 5 of the 8 matches, I don't get how anyone would conclude that this was the worst show ever reading my report. Unless they just read the last paragraph, which I suspect is all you did.

You didn't praise matches in your article. You just said stuff like "Yang did this, Lost pinned him. Yang attacked him. Looked crisp. Blah blah blah" insted of giving any real details or simple opinions that could help readers understand where you are coming from. The last paragraph made it seem that way aswell and you came off as bored and/or didn't seem to remember much about what happend at the show. You also had no clue about where PWG was going with the Sky/Tornado tag match.

"Little or no detail" would be saying UFC is going to suck twice without even a single word or line explanation as to why. I assume you just don't watch UFC, which is a pretty lame reason to conclude an individual show is going to suck.

No need to. UFC produces some awful shows that are boring to watch and at times there are fights that make me question whether or not Dana White is trying to make his investments(The TUF kids) look good in action. I have watched plenty of UFC and other MMA so I think I know what I'm talking about. Plus I didn't go into explanation because this isn't a UFC topic.

And of course, given you've misrepresented just about everything I said, it's worth pointing out I didn't say fans are "not willing to say something stinks." I said they "aren't as willing" as East Coast fans, and I think that's a pretty hard proposition to argue with.

No misrepresentation here. Same argument, different wordings. The difference with east coast fans and SoCal fans is that SoCal fans aren't as overly smarky as east coast fans and aren't as jaded as say ROH fans(not a diss to ROH fans, just throwing out an example). If fans see something bad, they're not afraid to say it was, but there aren't many bad things on PWG shows that would make people speak their minds about that. Also, PWG fans have not been afraid to voice their opinions on Petey Williams' work at shows. Nobody isn't unwilling to speak their minds.

Overall, I think that's a positive, given the flip side of the equation I already discussed. But I don't see why apologists need to defend sub-par efforts. The SoCal Uncensored board seemed as down on this show as they have been any PWG show in a while, and rightfully so.

I don't see anyone defending sub-par efforts that have been put on, I see people voicing their opinions and their thoughts on the stuff that has happend. And people are focusing on the posititves and giving some real opinions on the negatives without giving little to no details but it still doesn't prevent them from being negative about the show.

I'm not exactly Mr. Negative when it comes to PWG. But god damn, what is the point of writing an evaluation of a wrestling show if you aren't going to judge it based on the merits of the show relative to other shows put on by the same promotion?

Again, I'm not going on about your opinion of the show(I've changed my view on that since you've shed some light on things now), it's the way you wrote your report and how little details and didn't offer any constuctive opinions or thoughts and you saying SoCal fans don't seem to want to bash things as much as other fanbases.

I felt my report was more than fair, and I have no obligation to provide friendly window dressing to sugar coat a mediocre effort from a great promotion.

Again, the issue isn't your opinion. It's how you're reports are presented and how you don't do much to explain your opinions. If you want to see some good examples of reports that express constructive criticism, read some reviews by Justin Crast or The Masked Akeem. They don't write for major websites like The Observer or The Torch or PWInsider, but they put solid efforts into their reviews and give details and real opinions as opposed to just one line sentences.

"You also had no clue about where PWG was going with the Sky/Tornado tag match."

A three-year-old sees where it's going. What I brought up was why in the hell Tornado would agree to a match where Sky is so obviously setting him up. It makes Tornado, the face, look like an idiot.

"No need to. UFC produces some awful shows that are boring to watch and at times there are fights that make me question whether or not Dana White is trying to make his investments(The TUF kids) look good in action. I have watched plenty of UFC and other MMA so I think I know what I'm talking about. Plus I didn't go into explanation because this isn't a UFC topic."

Oh yeah, I'm sure you watch a lot of UFC. After all, UFC has produced some awful shows. Like take 2005, where UFC shows got a collective 1,604 thumbs up, 110 thumbs down and 187 thumbs in the middle from Observer readers. That's some awful programming right there. And not only that, it's laughable to suggest a UFC show might be good.

"No misrepresentation here. Same argument, different wordings."

No, it's not. I said the fans here aren't as willing to say something stinks. You said that I said they won't say something stinks, and then explained that sometimes they do. And then you once again said that nobody is unwilling to speak their minds, when I never said that. Your description of the difference between east coast fans and SoCal fans is completely in agreement with my assessment. Stop putting words in my mouth!

"I don't see anyone defending sub-par efforts that have been put on, I see people voicing their opinions and their thoughts on the stuff that has happend. And people are focusing on the posititves and giving some real opinions on the negatives without giving little to no details but it still doesn't prevent them from being negative about the show."

This "real opinions" distinction is BS. There was no criticism from you of people just saying "kickass show." It was only when the criticism came in that all of a sudden had to be justified. It's a total double standard over the amount of time and effort people need to spend deconstructing an indy show. If you praise it, that's fine. But if heaven forbid you criticize, you better come with a treatise backing your opinion. Because lord knows there are tons of people out there providing pages of analysis over live independent shows that aren't available on tape.

"Again, the issue isn't your opinion. It's how you're reports are presented and how you don't do much to explain your opinions. If you want to see some good examples of reports that express constructive criticism, read some reviews by Justin Crast or The Masked Akeem. They don't write for major websites like The Observer or The Torch or PWInsider, but they put solid efforts into their reviews and give details and real opinions as opposed to just one line sentences."

I don't go to every PWG show with a pad and pen to take notes. I don't go to them as a reporter. I go to them as a 2L taking a break from my busy schedule, and to have fun. The reports I write up are just passing along the information on the show to Dave, because I've been lobbying him for more PWG coverage for over a year now. Sometimes he runs them, sometimes he doesn't. Mainly I'm just pointing out the shows are out there, and are good. And believe me, that type of publicity helps PWG. I get e-mails from people asking about what PWG DVDs to order all the time, and getting PWG mentioned when you mention ROH has been a big goal of mine. But you can't have it both ways, accepting "that was a great match," and rejecting "that was a disappointment."

You're also mixing up two issues. Before you were reprimanding me for not being constructive, which is an issue of bias, and just being negative for the sake of being negative. Now what you're arguing isn't an issue of constructive criticism. It's an issue of depth of analysis. You're asking from me something completely different than what I'm doing, and I'm sorry, it's a lot more fun watching a live show than writing down move for move. The type of report you're asking for just isn't done for many indy shows. You're talking about tape reviews, but that's a completely different animal. You can go back and forth, and you have time to analyze and go back. To compare that to live indy reports is absurd. If you want detailed blow-by-blow accounts of PWG live events, do it yourself. I'll only do it for the big events:

Those are completely different reports than what I did this weekend, because there my priority was writing up a report. Here my priority was watching a show, and I don't have to apologize for that. You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm capable of doing a much more detailed analysis, but I would rather just sit back and enjoy the show.

"Are you the Hardy guy or the asian guy next to him that keep taking pictures?"

I was next to the Asian guy taking pictures. I don't know who Hardy guy is, but I'm pretty sure that's not me.

bford24 wrote:Who cares that Todd sucks at reporting the truth about the show? I rather listen to people complain about the price going up to 20.

BFord

I disagree, the argument about Todd's crappy reports so far has been fun to read. I'd much rather read this than to see people complaining about tickets or bitching about annoying fans or crappy show title name ideas.

And on the subject of the event. One thing that has surprised me about not getting any attention was a spot in the Luchas/Davey/Dragon match. At one point Dragon and Davey where on the outside, and Zokre did his Tope Fake, rolled backwards, Phoenix Star jumped over him and did a roll into a springboard Tope Con Hilo. And I didn't think Shawn Riddick looked that bad. I'm sure if he improved and worked off the ring rust he and Koslov could become a great team.

A three-year-old sees where it's going. What I brought up was why in the hell Tornado would agree to a match where Sky is so obviously setting him up. It makes Tornado, the face, look like an idiot.

Maybe they're going with something different? Maybe there's a different plan than the obvious. There are always different ways these angles can go, and PWG has swerved the fans many times before. The eye rolling was cute though.

Oh yeah, I'm sure you watch a lot of UFC. After all, UFC has produced some awful shows. Like take 2005, where UFC shows got a collective 1,604 thumbs up, 110 thumbs down and 187 thumbs in the middle from Observer readers. That's some awful programming right there. And not only that, it's laughable to suggest a UFC show might be good.

Ok, I guess UFC must be good since a bunch of wrestling marks who read The Observer think it is. Nevermind the boring fights, the poor heavyweight division, the readers of a wrestling newsletter that is published by a guy who overrates matches always have the right opinion. I'm sorry, I'll never question the word of the ever holy minds of Observer readers.

No, it's not. I said the fans here aren't as willing to say something stinks. You said that I said they won't say something stinks, and then explained that sometimes they do.

I ment that I put the words differently, not you. I put in the incorrect wording, but my point still stands. Even with my incorrect wording it was still easy to tell what I was trying to go for.

And then you once again said that nobody is unwilling to speak their minds, when I never said that. Your description of the difference between east coast fans and SoCal fans is completely in agreement with my assessment.

Nope. You tried to say that fans here aren't as willing to admit something sucks but other fans are more willing elsewhere. I countered by saying that wasn't true but at the same time fans are not as smarky and as nit/picky as other fans. They're willing to express their negative thoughts, but they just don't have as many as other fans. My description is the difference between east coast fans and SoCal fans are that more eastcoasters are a lot more anal than us. There, I just said that several times now hopefully you'll see where I'm coming from since you missed my point.

Stop putting words in my mouth!

I'd have to attempt to put words into your mouth before I could stop.

This "real opinions" distinction is BS. There was no criticism from you of people just saying "kickass show." It was only when the criticism came in that all of a sudden had to be justified.

Big difference. You're writting for a website that is read by thousands of people across the world. The people who are saying it's a kickass show are mostly fans on message boards talking to others that went to the show or a few select people who didn't get to go. I'm not trying to go after your opinions, just the way your report was written.

It's a total double standard over the amount of time and effort people need to spend deconstructing an indy show. If you praise it, that's fine. But if heaven forbid you criticize, you better come with a treatise backing your opinion. Because lord knows there are tons of people out there providing pages of analysis over live independent shows that aren't available on tape.

When someone criticizes something, there's a disscussion on it. When people agree on something, there isn't a disscussion. Simple. If people praise it, what's the point of trying to debate when people agree? If people think it sucks, what's the point of trying to argue when both parties think it sucks? I've been in a disscussion over something I liked with someone didn't share my views on the subject and I didn't get butt hurt like yourself and cry foul over double standards.

I don't go to every PWG show with a pad and pen to take notes. I don't go to them as a reporter. I go to them as a 2L taking a break from my busy schedule, and to have fun. The reports I write up are just passing along the information on the show to Dave, because I've been lobbying him for more PWG coverage for over a year now. Sometimes he runs them, sometimes he doesn't. Mainly I'm just pointing out the shows are out there, and are good. And believe me, that type of publicity helps PWG. I get e-mails from people asking about what PWG DVDs to order all the time, and getting PWG mentioned when you mention ROH has been a big goal of mine. But you can't have it both ways, accepting "that was a great match," and rejecting "that was a disappointment."

Just because you don't jot down every detail about a show and don't go to them as a reporter doesn't change that your report was poorly written and that you can't remember the main detials of the event and give some close to accurate information. It's great to see you getting PWG hype and people asking about DVDs, but it's weak that you don't put effort into every event. Nothing is being dismissed because of thoughts on the quality of the show on my part, only that your report was horrible(how many times am I going to have to say that before you get my point?). Too many people write down matches as "good technical match" and "decent stuff, good comedy here and there" on reviews to the point where it doesn't get interesting. That's what you did, and that's why I think your report sucked.

Oh, and incase you want to bring up the "people only praise reports that report the shows as awesome blah blah blah blah" argument again, keep this in mind. The poster on here named Lord Akiyama submitted a report of a show that nearly had all the matches on a show near the **** range and got criticism from others here. Myself included. So put down the "reject the negative thoughts" card because it wont help you now.

You're also mixing up two issues. Before you were reprimanding me for not being constructive, which is an issue of bias, and just being negative for the sake of being negative. Now what you're arguing isn't an issue of constructive criticism. It's an issue of depth of analysis.

Ugh. No. My point was you tried to claim that you where giving constructive criticism when you didn't offer that and that you didn't give many details except for random one liners and little things here and there. And you have yet to show me where you offered anything constructive that would benefit PWG. I'm not grilling you on your lack of analysis, just the fact that you're report sucked and you brought nothing to the table in terms of criticism. I hope you can understand that(seeing as how I mentioned it a billion times).

As far as jumping on the issues, you're the one jumping to different issues. I tried to help you understand my point but insted you just act like I'm trying to attack you for your negative opinions and such.

You're asking from me something completely different than what I'm doing, and I'm sorry, it's a lot more fun watching a live show than writing down move for move. The type of report you're asking for just isn't done for many indy shows. You're talking about tape reviews, but that's a completely different animal. You can go back and forth, and you have time to analyze and go back. To compare that to live indy reports is absurd. If you want detailed blow-by-blow accounts of PWG live events, do it yourself.

So now you're trying to say that I'm demanding move for move reports? That just gives me a big "lol" as I'm only saying that a little more details about the show aside from your two line stuff would make your reports more valid. If you just sent in results with minor details, I can understand that but insted you're writting a report with slim details and lacks any real criticism that you claim to have made earlier. I'm not asking for much, and I could care less about every single note about what happend since I go to the shows. If you're going to do reports and offer criticism and details, do them right. I'm not talking about tape reviews either. It seems like you lack the brain power to understand that. And the "do it yourself" line was cute, reminds me of my nephew when my brother asks him to do his homework.

Those are completely different reports than what I did this weekend, because there my priority was writing up a report. Here my priority was watching a show, and I don't have to apologize for that. You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm capable of doing a much more detailed analysis, but I would rather just sit back and enjoy the show.

Fine, you're capable of writting detailed reviews. That still doesn't change the fact that your last report didn't offer cronstructive criticisms or good details. Enjoy the shows all you want, have fun. Do whatever you want. Just keep in mind if you're going to offer constructive criticisms you should do so insted of claiming to by writting "This was the worst PWG show I

FYI (and for anyone who didn't catch it), Phoenix Star was legitimately knocked out following Dragon's curb stomp. The finish was rushed (and the match was to go a lot longer than it did) due to that fact, leading to the botched finish as all participants were struggling to get somewhere with the match and not kill whatever they had going.

Props to Zokre and Dragon for improvising on the fly in a bad situation. I'd like to see anyone do any better.

I'd be more worried about what appeared to be a bad bump during the Joey/Bosh match with the powerbomb into the side of the ring.

"Maybe they're going with something different? Maybe there's a different plan than the obvious. There are always different ways these angles can go, and PWG has swerved the fans many times before. The eye rolling was cute though."

Scroll up. That was a response to eye rolling used by someone else. You. I never use those things unless I'm throwing them back at someone else being a jerk. And where they're going with this is irrelevant to Tornado's motivations for accepting a match where he has to team with a guy he knows is screwing with him. Assuming that a wrestler wants to win matches. That's the exact point. Yes, they're moving towards a feud. But they need to do a better job explaining how they got from point B to point C, even if we all are waiting for point E anyway.

"I ment that I put the words differently, not you. I put in the incorrect wording,"

Well, if by using the wrong words to describe what I said, then yes, you used the "incorrect wording."

"Big difference. You're writting for a website that is read by thousands of people across the world. The people who are saying it's a kickass show are mostly fans on message boards talking to others that went to the show or a few select people who didn't get to go."

No, actually, you went after my report for an opinion I didn't have (that the show was shitty). This whole thing about how the report was written only came up after I pointed out that you should read the report rather than the last line in isolation. At that point you shifted, like you have shifted your argument every single post, either because you can't admit when you're wrong, or because you're an asshole just looking to pick a fight. And since the standard is now "wrestling site read by thousands," please go and find a live event report on the Observer site that is more what you are looking for. Given just about every live report is written with brief details rather than long descriptions, for the reasons I stated about people wanting to watch the shows, I think you're going to have a tough time.

"Just because you don't jot down every detail about a show and don't go to them as a reporter doesn't change that your report was poorly written and that you can't remember the main detials of the event and give some close to accurate information."

Huh? Now this is like a fourth or fifth argument. Okay. What was poorly written about the report? Was there bad grammar or spelling like your posts? What didn't I remember in the main details of the event? What was inaccurate about the report? Where is this coming from? It was a short report, but I stand by it as well written, that the main details were there, and that it was accurate.

"Too many people write down matches as "good technical match" and "decent stuff, good comedy here and there" on reviews to the point where it doesn't get interesting. That's what you did, and that's why I think your report sucked."

Okay. That has nothing to do with it being poorly written, or inaccurate, or not providing main details (although those are harsh criticisms to be thrown around, for sure). Now you're just saying it's boring? Fine. Go read something else. That wasn't written for entertainment value. It was a brief synopsis of the show.

"Oh, and incase you want to bring up the "people only praise reports that report the shows as awesome blah blah blah blah" argument again, keep this in mind. The poster on here named Lord Akiyama submitted a report of a show that nearly had all the matches on a show near the **** range and got criticism from others here. Myself included. So put down the "reject the negative thoughts" card because it wont help you now."

I saw that thread. I don't think it's here since the board crashed, which is a shame, because my recollection of that was one or two guys saying "maybe you overrated the matches" and that being it.

"My point was you tried to claim that you where giving constructive criticism when you didn't offer that and that you didn't give many details except for random one liners and little things here and there. And you have yet to show me where you offered anything constructive that would benefit PWG."

Well, considering the report has been posted here, I would think you could find the stuff about Steen not working as a face and the Dragon brawl being too dangerous for yourself.

"If you just sent in results with minor details, I can understand that but insted you're writting a report with slim details and lacks any real criticism that you claim to have made earlier."

The former is what I was sending in. That was my whole point in the last post. You want to know my e-mail headers to Dave? "PWG Results." I had a few details so he knows the key highlights of the show. If you want to switch words for what it is, fine. It doesn't need to be labeled "a report." Label it "results." Would you rather have those PWG results buried in line after line of random indy groups from around the country? Bulking it up a bit makes it less likely that happens.

"It seems like you lack the brain power to understand that."

Easiest way to tell the other person doubts their arguments: they call you an idiot. Because yeah, I'm a really dull individual. Throw another ad hominem at me and I'll start pointing out every grammatical and spelling mistake you've made. And I would hate to add another 3 pages to this thread.

JayJay wrote:FYI (and for anyone who didn't catch it), Phoenix Star was legitimately knocked out following Dragon's curb stomp. The finish was rushed (and the match was to go a lot longer than it did) due to that fact, leading to the botched finish as all participants were struggling to get somewhere with the match and not kill whatever they had going.

Props to Zokre and Dragon for improvising on the fly in a bad situation. I'd like to see anyone do any better.

I'd be more worried about what appeared to be a bad bump during the Joey/Bosh match with the powerbomb into the side of the ring.

Thanks by the way. That makes sense, and takes some of the heat off the referee if no one knew what was going on.