Been doing some analysis of our tier 30 talents and it appears that Zen Sphere's healing output is still modestly superior to Chi Burst, but they are close enough to make Chi Burst a contender for fights where burst is helpful or where the HoT portion would mostly go to waste. It also looks like Chi Wave is still very far behind and is only about half as strong as the other options, meaning that unless we're approaching 50% overheal with the alternatives, it's going to be a very weak choice.

This is with the Feb. 19th changes and these results were consistent with observational data from the PTR.

With my gearset, these were my calculations:

Chi Wave: 11k HPS(e)
Chi Burst: 18k HPE(e)
Zen Sphere: 20k HPE(e)

I would like to know if anyone else has done some work on these talents and whether they are reaching the same conclusion.

Just tried on Lfr Garalon ( ok ok lfr but 440 ilvl ^^ ), and, with a raid totally dispatched, spread i can have more or less 8% of my total heal with ZS and Zs detonate.
With a correctly stacked raid, and some good managment, i think ZS is the best talent to choose for constant raid damage, and could be up to 10 to 12% or our heal ( garalon, empress, tsulong night ...)

As i see it :

Constant raid damage + raid stacked = ZS (use it on cooldown on YOU ( because you're smart and know how to be placed when it detonates^^ ) and some cac or caster you know smart enought to be well stacked ^^ )

Burst raid damage = chi burst

raid very spread, or burst damages on only some people = chi wave ( use it on cooldown imo )

Furthermore , i already said it, but we must make difference beetween MW with 2 T15 and MW without. That bonus is just totally stupid and the most OP bonus i've ever seen

Finally, as long as you avoid Surging or SCK, MW costs very very few mana ( in fact you only use mana for RenM et soothing ), so you totally can take Chi brew instead of ascension to have some on demand chi. With chi brew, the most problematic , imo, is NOT the 15% less mana, but the 5th chi you don't have, making pretty impossible to stack chi up to 5 ( and 5 chi + expel harm make good 3 burst UPLIFT ) .

I'll try to MW with CJl instead of Soothing soon, because as i said, mana is more or less not a very big problem in MW, chi generation is.

To the opposite, i can't imagine FW without ascension, mana is far too problematic.

Now, T14 is behind us, and we probably should discuss about what playstyle ( MW vs FW ) and which tier 30 talent take for the T15 bosses

One thing im thinking of is the Mws thats would rather go fulltime FWing. Do they really have a place in a 10man team? I could see it work in a 25man. When in a 10man team its really tight on dps and heals thats needed. And atm in 5.0-5.1 you had the "power" to go kinda full time FW wiht the jab-jab-uplift combo. Even better on fights wiht a dmg buff on them. But now wiht a Jab cost of 18k and imo eminance healing nerfed i cant see this work in 10man.

I rolled a monk for the FW part. And its been so fun to do it. So i been in the lines of rerolling but then i start to think about all the time and money i putted down on my monk. Just sad to see they put so much time and effort into discs attoment healing and no time on Fwing (or so i see it in my eyes). Last Nights postes from GC had noting on MWs. And under this ptr for 5.2 there been so little about us from the devs, no communication.

So i have come to the conclusion i will stay as a monk and do the best of it. But if they dont change Mws soon i will sit myself out for fights where they need a fulltime healer on.

So will i since im in a 10man team. Its already now hard otkeep up wiht other healers on normal fights wihtout a dmg buff. Tho i heal wiht pally and disc so hard ot compare. But it really dont looking so great for us in 10mans

One thing im thinking of is the Mws thats would rather go fulltime FWing. Do they really have a place in a 10man team? I could see it work in a 25man. When in a 10man team its really tight on dps and heals thats needed. And atm in 5.0-5.1 you had the "power" to go kinda full time FW wiht the jab-jab-uplift combo. Even better on fights wiht a dmg buff on them. But now wiht a Jab cost of 18k and imo eminance healing nerfed i cant see this work in 10man.

I rolled a monk for the FW part. And its been so fun to do it. So i been in the lines of rerolling but then i start to think about all the time and money i putted down on my monk. Just sad to see they put so much time and effort into discs attoment healing and no time on Fwing (or so i see it in my eyes). Last Nights postes from GC had noting on MWs. And under this ptr for 5.2 there been so little about us from the devs, no communication.

So i have come to the conclusion i will stay as a monk and do the best of it. But if they dont change Mws soon i will sit myself out for fights where they need a fulltime healer on.

Jab-Jab-Uplift isn't really fistweaving, it's healing with jab only being used to generate resources. Real fistweaving is using those resources built by jab on primarily TP and BoK, and that will be stronger than ever in 5.2, with the buffs to TP/BoK and Muscle Memory. With the mana return from Muscle Memory and Mana Tea generated, the true cost for Jab works out to about 3% mana, which is perfectly workable with some reasonable spirit regen.

I primarily raid 25 mans, but we've done some 10 mans on nights where attendance is crap (i.e. Superbowl Sunday or over the Xmas/New Year's holidays), and if anything, I see FWing being more valuable to a 10 man. In 25s, we can run anywhere from 5-7 healers, but most frequently, we bring 6. In 10s, we can either have 2 healers (equivalent of 5 in 25s) or 3 healers (equivalent of 7.5 in 25s). There's no good middle ground between those. That's where a fistweaver or an atonement disc priest fit in nicely--able to provide some solid DPS while adding some additional healing to keep pressure off the 'pure' healers and bringing serious healing cooldowns and throughput for when things get hairy or another healer dies. In 25s, that's less useful, because I can just bring another full time DPS and stack a few boomkin tranqs or vampiric touches to ride out the tough parts.

I said at the start of the expansion there's no way the class will be balanced around doing significant DPS while bringing as much healing as a 'traditional' healer. So it shouldn't be surprising you need to do actual healing and not just DPS and produce a ton of smart healing.

I said at the start of the expansion there's no way the class will be balanced around doing significant DPS while bringing as much healing as a 'traditional' healer. So it shouldn't be surprising you need to do actual healing and not just DPS and produce a ton of smart healing.

I totally agree. But last I checked, MW Monks are healers. I lead my 10m raids, and I bring my monk to heal. Having said that I love the idea of Monks kicking and punching bosses to do their 'thing'. Even healing, Fwing should be an integral part of what we do. I really think they should have halved our dps and doubled the eminence. Hitting the boss _or_ sitting back and 'purely healing' should not be enough to carry a raid, but putting the two together should be the way to get a MW's full potential. And I'm not talking about jab-jab-uplift, I totally get trying to remove that. It just feels like 5.2 is making it a choice of doing one or the other.

I look at our 'counter part' if you will, Disc. Dpsing the boss is cheep, doesn't do much dmg, but gives the priest +25% healing every 30 seconds or so. MWers get nothing like that. Maybe i'm wrong to compare the two. I would like to just see MW do both, regardless of intense dmg phases or not.

I look at our 'counter part' if you will, Disc. Dpsing the boss is cheep, doesn't do much dmg, but gives the priest +25% healing every 30 seconds or so. MWers get nothing like that. Maybe i'm wrong to compare the two. I would like to just see MW do both, regardless of intense dmg phases or not.

The comparison is fine if you ask me. Actually, Disc has a bit of a similar "issue", because not every Priest likes to Smite. Keep in mind that you were able to play Disc without A&A throughout the whole Cataclysm because it were talents and discussably optional. Now that every Disc Priest has A&A, of course it feels a bit odd if a Priest says "I don't like it, I am not using it". I mean, hell, it is a healing buff after all. Even if your whole purpose in raids is to stack Spirit Shell, it isn't much effort to smite 5 times before Spirit Shell.

Sounds familiar? Fistweaving, I don't like it <-> Soothing, I don't like it. I want to do only (insert here). Now the difference is that nobody asks of the Priest to do nothing but Smite, unless of course those fights with damage buffs, where you are healing more through Atonement than through actual heals (remember the good old Halfus? Or Stone Guard Heroic nowadays). For Mistweaver, the real issue now is that they are separating the concepts so much that taking the best from both worlds will be too painful to really consider it. So either you Soothe, or you Fistweave. Both concepts won't benefit from each other very much; it is more up to you to decide on the situation whether you profit from the one or the other.

Sounds familiar? Fistweaving, I don't like it <-> Soothing, I don't like it.

I'm with you on that. Given, priests weren't always atonement, so I can mostly understand. Lol.
But Monks have always (as if its been years...) been punching and kicking. I would say to that "If you don't like it, you should have rolled a druid".
I thought Bliz wanted MWers Fistweaving....
So Muscle Memory is what they come up with?
Why not something like "BoK refreshes the duration of your EM" or something to that effect...?

Yeah I thought so, too . So well, now they want us fistweaving, but they want it to be a "filler" instead of a viable concept as a whole, which is the issue. While Disc can use a certain aspect of the DPSing part to actually buff their healing, we will most likely be bound to doing either/or, and not have benefits from "combining" the aspects, which really is a letdown.

Sounds familiar? Fistweaving, I don't like it <-> Soothing, I don't like it. I want to do only (insert here). Now the difference is that nobody asks of the Priest to do nothing but Smite, unless of course those fights with damage buffs, where you are healing more through Atonement than through actual heals (remember the good old Halfus? Or Stone Guard Heroic nowadays). For Mistweaver, the real issue now is that they are separating the concepts so much that taking the best from both worlds will be too painful to really consider it. So either you Soothe, or you Fistweave. Both concepts won't benefit from each other very much; it is more up to you to decide on the situation whether you profit from the one or the other.

The problem that I (and I think a lot of other people on this forum) have isn't that we don't like using "actual heals" as GC put it, it's just that it's empirically a lot worse than live and other healers. It's like saying that a Shadow Priest either likes using their AoE heal/damage spells on cooldown to help the raid, or he likes spamming Mind Spike and doing no DPS. Having fun is kind of secondary to getting a raid spot; a very fun spec that is worthless isn't very fun because you can't actually use it. I might be able to get behind having to pick between healing and Fistweaving depending on the moment if the "healing" choice wasn't god awful.

It's a fundamental concept of class balance; if you take something that a spec uses away from them or make it harder to use, it's a direct nerf. If you add something powerful without taking anything away or toning anything down, it's a direct buff (See: Windwalkers on PTR). I find it funny that both are happening to different specs of the same class in the same patch, but there it is: the devs don't really understand that you can't just take things away or give them to classes that are performing near the middle and expect it not to be a disaster.

One thing im thinking of is the Mws thats would rather go fulltime FWing. Do they really have a place in a 10man team?

It depends, it's actually very useful to have a healer who can dps, it allows you to run 3 heals without too much problem of meeting enrage. On most fight, disc priest and I are doing more dps together than a tank, and now that it's buffed, it might be interesting for that.

Monk – In efforts to further discourage Jab, Jab, Uplift, we increased the mana cost of Jab from 6% to 8%, increased the mana restore on Muscle Memory from 2% to 4%, and increased the mana cost of glyphed Uplift to 16% mana. So that monks feel like they can be less reliant on Jab, Jab, Uplift, we also changed Soothing Mist to generate chi more consistently (to avoid long stretches of bad luck) and increased its generation rate overall.

I thought their intended goal was to make JJU not the only way to play, not obliterate it