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Indeed. The Pope also has said that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. Their solution is simple: abstinence. Does that means that anyone who is HIV+ should never have sex again?

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I am African,catholic and much surprised and disappointed to hear the pope make such general statements that are very counter productive and leads to many more people contacting HIV and AIDS and finally deaths,suffering,poverty for many children,and adults.the pope does not make such statements in europe and or italy wherehe lives since hiv/aids is a worldwide problem. surely that is descrimination and dubble moraland criminal against africans.it is like asking sich people not to take their medicines and die!!

As for me,I prefare the pope didnot come to africa. This publicity he makes of himself over the suffering and death of innocent people is a great shame of all times, and it onlyshows how narrow minded the pope is.

Indeed. The Pope also has said that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. Their solution is simple: abstinence. Does that means that anyone who is HIV+ should never have sex again?

I am African,catholic and much surprised and disappointed to hear the pope make such general statements that are very counter productive and leads to many more people contacting HIV and AIDS and finally deaths,suffering,poverty for many children,and adults.the pope does not make such statements in europe and or italy wherehe lives since hiv/aids is a worldwide problem. surely that is descrimination and dubble moraland criminal against africans.it is like asking sich people not to take their medicines and die!!

As for me,I prefare the pope didnot come to africa. This publicity he makes of himself over the suffering and death of innocent people is a great shame of all times, and it onlyshows how narrow minded the pope is.

Not the first German born leader to be, um, pure evil. He does look good in black though.......

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Roughly roundabout somewhere in the eighteenth or nineteenth century, Sodomite begat Homosexual out of moral, medical and legal models, bequeathing him Identity, who inbred with Nuclear Family and Industrialism to spawn Homophobia.

Well, technically of course condoms cannot be 'the answer', though we all know they're part of the answer. A part that is, sometimes, I think a little over-relied-upon, but that's just me (I think the passions are, epidemiologically speaking, insufficiently controllable).

But anyway, the reasons behind this old gent's rejection of condoms are certainly to be abhorred.

Considering this is the same man who said defending heterosexuality was as important as saving the rain forests and thought it was a good ideal to invite a known holocaust denier back into the fold I'm really not surprised.

What really bothers me about this story is that almost immediately ministers from France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and UNAIDS agency were condemning his remarks and from the US Department of Health and Human Services we get silence! There isn't even a mention of this on the governments HIV/AIDS information site AIDS.gov

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It is not the arrival that matters. It is the journey along the way. -- Michel Montaigne

The pope must have heard that pussy stubble renders condoms absolutely useless. I think we should give his recent edict a bit more thoughtful consideration.

I am sure they have a secret unit somewhere still in Vatican testing condoms against all sort of sexual perversity. One of the Benedicts (IX) was famous for having sex with anything that moved. He was so hated that he had to flee Rome and after he sold (yes, it was for sale) to Gregory VI he used the money to fill the Lateran Palace with prostitutes.

And talk about the Nazi Youth's latest trip, he apparently also has awful things to say about the liturgy in African churches, basically asking priests there to knock off the rather joyous singing and blessing that are so interwoven in African culture. The reason - communication with his imaginary friend God might be affected. The emphasis of course is his God since he obviously does not care about yours.

It seems that the issue of safe sex or contraception for the Catholic hierarchy always remains too academic or purist - that's sort of the strength and the weakness of any organised religion, isn't it? I mean we want the church to toe the line and uphold the highest moral standards because that is one thing it does for the members of the church. But then we all lead messy everyday lives filled with contradictions and we need to make compromises with our faith. And then we just scratch the surface a little and see all the messy history of organised religions - the churches and faiths themselves, and all their own histories of hypocrisy and terror, so we know the church hiearchy is only human as well.

I spent years working with a Muslim global elite class, and I liked generally their easiness with both devout faith and yet their own rather un-muslim everyday lives, and their distastes for radical fundamentalists, as well. I saw that they took the good from the faith but had some healthy distance and useful hypocrisy.

Perhaps what the catholic church needs are rank and file priests or even a bit higher ups who openly engage in making a better world by advocating practical prevention for HIV - condoms, safe sex education - accepting that the world as lived is different than the world as it "should be" lived in Catholic doctrine.

Imagine the good the catholic church or any church could do if it really got involved in solving the HIV epidemic in Washington, D.C., for instance.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 07:29:43 AM by mecch »

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

As the pope was in Younde,Cameroon he didnot think to visit the Aids-Wardof the Younde Central hospital to see the suffering and pains of people who are waitingin pains and misery for death from AIDS.There many people there who didnot use the condomsas the pope wants.The pope has never taken care of aids children even for one day,but has the big mouth to talk and mislead millions of people to death.

since 1982,the pope hat always promoted the policy of no use of condoms against HIV/aids, and no surprise the hiv/aids has hit the christian black africa.I am African und see the popes policy of no condoms not only deceiving but as GENOCIDE.I have lost many of my neighbours to aids because they heard what the pope said and didnot have safe sex.more than 20 million Africans have died from AIDS.

WHAT are chances to win of sueing to the pope to court for the GENOCIDE of these 20 million african Catholics? It is too long since 1982 to see the pope send children,women and men to grave through aids and deceit,and something must be done now.

Sue with me the pope to court!!! I will be happy to hear suggestion on how to sue the pope for AIDS-GENOCIDE and misleading policies!!!

Those who live in Ivory towers still live in the 1940's don't know what the Freak is going on. He is probably under the illusion that only the chosen number will go to heaven and to hell with the rest. But then again, I wonder is there a condom dispenser in the Vatican men's room so those feisty sex starve priest wont infect eachother with hypocrisy?

I don't really understand what we can expect less from the Vatican, which is a political institute designed on extremist ideology. As long as there are people with nothing better to do on Sunday mornings and continue to pay to see their shows instead of, say, the latest Friday 13th movie, which is more or less the same form of self abuse IMO, they will always have money to dress up that Nazi drag queen to torment the world.

Cynicism aside, U1195, I do feel your pain and frustration. I was an institutionalized catholic...

A friend sent me this today - it's an online petition in response to papa's condom comments - including a blurb from the organisers.

Dear friends,

Last week, on his first visit to Africa, Pope Benedict said that "[AIDS] cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

The Pope's statement is at odds with the research on AIDS prevention, and a setback to decades of hard work on AIDS education and awareness. With powerful moral influence over more than 1.1 billion Catholics in the world, and 22 million HIV positive Africans, these words could dramatically affect the AIDS pandemic and put millions of lives at risk. Worldwide concern is starting to show results and a willingness by the Vatican to revise the statement - sign our urgent petition asking the Pope to take care not to undermine proven AIDS prevention strategies:

This is not a religious dispute, but a grave public health concern. Personal beliefs of Catholics and all people should be respected, and the Pope's advocacy for a culture of fidelity and respect could be helpful in prevention if condoms were not discouraged. The Catholic Church engages in a vast amount of social service work, including the care of those living with AIDS. But the Pope's claim that condom distribution is not an effective AIDS prevention mechanism is not supported by research. It's untrue, and if it diminishes condom use, it will be deadly.

The fact is, HIV and AIDS are prevented by condom use. There is no easy solution to the spread of this tragic disease, but condoms and education are the best known prevention combination and have not been found to increase risky sexual behaviour. That is why even priests and nuns working in Africa have questioned the Pope's statements.

We may not be able to ask the Catholic Church to change its broader position, but we are asking the Pope to stop actively speaking out against prevention strategies that work. It's important that people of all beliefs, especially Catholics, call on the Pope to exercise care in his leadership on this issue. Sign below then spread the word to your friends and family - this petition could actually save lives:

25 million people worldwide have already died of AIDS, and 12 million children have been left without parents. If enough of us join this outcry, we will win an important battle in the struggle for a world without AIDS.

-------------------------------------------ABOUT AVAAZAvaaz.org is an independent, not-for-profit global campaigning organization that works to ensure that the views and values of the world's people inform global decision-making. (Avaaz means "voice" in many languages.) Avaaz receives no money from governments or corporations, and is staffed by a global team based in Ottawa, London, Rio de Janeiro, New York, Buenos Aires, and Geneva. Call us at: +1 888 922 8229 or +55 21 2509 0368

Click here to learn more about our largest campaigns.

Don't forget to check out our Facebook and Myspace and Bebo pages!

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Roughly roundabout somewhere in the eighteenth or nineteenth century, Sodomite begat Homosexual out of moral, medical and legal models, bequeathing him Identity, who inbred with Nuclear Family and Industrialism to spawn Homophobia.

Perhaps what the catholic church needs are rank and file priests or even a bit higher ups who openly engage in making a better world by advocating practical prevention for HIV - condoms, safe sex education - accepting that the world as lived is different than the world as it "should be" lived in Catholic doctrine.

In my opinion, the opinions of a man, who has supposedly never had sex or any form of intimate relationship with any other person, on any matter to do with sex and relationships should be totally dismissed and ignored. The world will wake up one day.

If you've watched any of the mainstream news coverage of the Catholic Church in the past month, you've heard several charges repeated over and over: The Church needs to ordain women to address the vocation shortage... the Church needs to change its attitude on contraception and abortion to better accommodate modern realities... the Church needs to moderate its stance on homosexual behavior to be more inclusive... the Church needs to drop its claim to contain the fullness of salvation, since it hinders ecumenism. Chances are, you're already well equipped to address these objections. But there's one charge that seems to throw Catholics for a loop.

It goes something like this:

By maintaining its ban on condom use, the Catholic Church is contributing to the AIDS epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa. Condoms have been demonstrated to prevent infection 90% of the time. If the Vatican cared more about people's lives than a rigid doctrine that most Catholics reject, they'd make an exception to allow condom use to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. Such a move would do more for "life" than would maintaining a position that allows millions to die as a result of unprotected sex.

Sounds convincing at first, doesn't it? So convincing, in fact, that most people have trouble addressing it.

One approach, of course, would be to explain the Catholic moral/theological position on why contraception is inherently evil. But while absolutely true, that approach isn't terribly convincing to a non-Catholic, let alone a non-Christian. After all, logic and philosophy are easily dismissed as abstractions when human life is involved.

But the debate over condoms in Africa need never get to that point. In fact, the whole matter can be settled without ever bringing in moral theology. You see, the fatal flaw in the pro-condom argument is both simple and devastating: Condoms aren't working to stem AIDS in Africa.

Take for example a March 2004 article in the medical journal, Studies in Family Planning (cited by the Zenit News Agency, June 26, 2004). Titled "Condom Promotion for AIDS Prevention in the Developing World: Is It Working?," the piece was a meta-review of the scientific literature on the question.

The results shocked condom advocates. In the article, researchers Sanny Chen and Norman Hearst noted that, "In many sub-Saharan African countries, high HIV transmission rates have continued despite high rates of condom use." In fact, they continued, "No clear examples have emerged yet of a country that has turned back a generalized epidemic primarily by means of condom distribution."

No surprise, then, that Botswana, Zimbabwe, Kenya, and South Africa — the nations with the highest levels of condom availability — continue to have the highest rates of HIV prevalence ("The White House Initiative to Combat AIDS: Learning from Uganda," Joseph Loconte, Executive Summary Backgrounder).

How could this be? After all, we're told that condoms are 90% effective.

And that's precisely the problem.

This claim — so prevalent in condom-promotion literature — is actually a tremendous strike against using condoms to reduce AIDS. Think of it: Assuming that the 90% figure is accurate (a highly contested point), that means that 10% of the time, condoms don't offer protection against transmission.

That's one out of ten.

If you and I were to go skydiving, and I told you, "Don't worry... the parachutes work 90% of the time," how comfortable would you be making that jump?

You see, the pro-condom lobby's exaggerations over the effectiveness of its product is actually making the problem worse, for one simple reason: Condoms provide a false sense of security to those who use them.

Now, of course, the fact that a condom fails to "work" doesn't mean the person will automatically contract HIV/AIDS. Nevertheless, this is hardly the solution to the crisis.

You see, the pro-condom lobby's exaggerations over the effectiveness of its product is actually making the problem worse, for one simple reason: Condoms provide a false sense of security to those who use them. Being convinced of their effectiveness and feeling invulnerable, users will simply continue — or actually increase — their high-risk behavior. In this way, the claimed 90% effectiveness rate plummets in proportion to the increase in self-destructive behavior. This phenomenon is borne out in the countries that focus on condom distribution to fight the disease.

But while condoms clearly won't solve the HIV/AIDS crisis in Africa (or anywhere else), there is an approach that will: abstinence. Indeed, in African nations — where HIV/AIDS is transmitted almost exclusively through sexual contact — abstinence is the obvious solution. And better yet, it has been proven effective.

Uganda at one time had the highest rate of HIV/AIDS in the world. Starting in the mid to late 1980s, their government instituted a program to teach abstinence before marriage and fidelity to one's partner afterwards. They only reluctantly advised condoms for high risk groups (like prostitutes) whom they knew would not accept the other two approaches.

Billboards, radio announcements, print ads, and school programs all promoted the virtues of abstinence and fidelity to prevent HIV/AIDS. The results were astonishing.

In 1991, the prevalence rate of HIV was 15%. By 2001, it had dropped to 5%. It was the biggest HIV infection reduction in world history.

Among pregnant women, the drop was even more dramatic (as reported by CNS News, January 13, 2003). In 1991, 21.2% of expecting mothers tested positive for HIV. By 2001, the number had plummeted to 6.2%. Compare this with the 2001 numbers from Kenya (15%), Zimbabwe (32%), and Botswana (38%). All three countries focus on condom distribution, and all three countries continue to see their rates rise.

But wait, the condom advocates object. The Ugandan "miracle" is simply the result of more widespread condom use.

"You cannot show that more condoms have led to less AIDS in Africa.... I look at the data and I see that what might be called a more liberal response to AIDS — more and more millions or billions of condoms — has simply not worked, especially in parts of the world with the highest infection rate, Africa and the Caribbean."

Not so, says Dr. Edward C. Green, an anthropologist at the Harvard University School of Public Health. Dr. Green was a strong proponent of condom distribution to stem HIV/AIDS... that is, until the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) hired him to study the reasons behind the success in Uganda.

The results of his research left him little doubt. "Reduction in the number of sexual partners was probably the single most important behavioral change that resulted in prevalence decline," he noted. "Abstinence was probably the second most important change" (testimony before the Subcommittee on African Affairs, as reported by Joseph Loconte).

"It is a very indicting statement about the effectiveness of condoms," he told Citizen Magazine. "You cannot show that more condoms have led to less AIDS in Africa.... I look at the data and I see that what might be called a more liberal response to AIDS — more and more millions or billions of condoms — has simply not worked, especially in parts of the world with the highest infection rate, Africa and the Caribbean."

Unfortunately, not everyone was pleased with Dr. Green's conclusions. USAID shelved his study and enlisted a well-known condom advocate and employee of ETR Associates (an organization dedicated to "safe-sex" education) to write a new one. Apparently, USAID wasn't concerned with the apparent conflict of interest.

This is especially tragic, as the effectiveness of abstinence and fidelity education has been demonstrated by numerous research groups. As Loconte notes, evidence for the success of Uganda's approach has come from "USAID, the Joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), the World Health Organization (WHO), the Harvard Center for Population and Developmental Studies, the Ugandan government, and numerous independent studies published in medical journals."

Further Reading:

The “Social Vaccine”The AIDS Pandemic: Saving the Next GenerationLatex and LifeDoubts About Condoms: Science Questioning Their Efficacy in Halting HIV/AIDSWill Condoms Really Stop AIDS In Africa?

Yet we're still told condom distribution is the solution to the AIDS crisis in Africa. And the Catholic Church is an easy media bogeyman, standing in the way of that effort. Ironically enough, Uganda's successful approach is very close to that recommended by the Church. The only exception, of course, is the African country's concession to giving condoms to prostitutes. But if the people of that nation — and indeed, of the world at large — took seriously the Catholic notion of the dignity of women and the nature of sexual intercourse, that last point would be addressed as well.

But what about allowing condoms for faithful married couples, where one partner is HIV/AIDS positive? Isn't that reasonable?

Actually, it's not reasonable at all. Love requires sacrifice. And a person who claims to love another would never knowingly put his beloved in danger. But that's precisely what this approach does.

Imagine if I get drunk one night and drive my partner around town. That's not a loving act. And it doesn't suddenly become loving just because I tell my partner to put on a seatbelt. When an HIV/AIDS positive person has sex with someone who's free of the disease, he puts that person at grave risk. That's not love... that's selfishness.

In a marital situation where one spouse is HIV/AIDS positive and the other negative, the loving thing to do is to abstain from sex. In those cases, love must be shown in other ways, like the self-sacrifice that abstinence requires.

It's not easy, but real love rarely is. Hey someone has to stick up for the Church in here. I love ya all.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 05:58:13 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

When an HIV/AIDS positive person has sex with someone who's free of the disease, he puts that person at grave risk. That's not love... that's selfishness.

What a load of bollocks. Condoms have been PROVEN to prevent hiv infection. There have been long-term studies of couples where one is positive and one is negative. In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, but no barrier for oral activities, not one of the negative partners became infected with hiv. NOT ONE!!! When correctly and consistently used, condoms do the job and prevent transmission.

Maybe if more people were actually taught proper condom use, we'd hear less of breakages etc. A correctly used (and stored) condom RARELY breaks. I've NEVER had one break on me and most people I know have never had that happen either.

Mystery, you can lead a life of sexless misery if you wish, but don't judge those of us who know how to use condoms effectively.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I'm not sure if all that represents your opinion or your just showing how the church could argue the point. The problem is that unless we stop all condom usage, we won't know that it isn't working. I'd be surprised if the effectiveness rate really is 'only' 90%. After all, every (unsafe) exposure doesn't equal an infection in the first place. I guess I look at condom usage to help prevent HIV infections sort of like birth control or seat belts. No birth control is 100% effective, but I'm pretty sure that I never got my ex-wife pregnant... actually 100% sure I never got her pregnant. I've been in a couple of really bad car accidents in my life way before air bags were used. I also grew up wearing a seat belt. I wasn't hurt either of those times, but I do know that neither seat belts or air bags will always prevent injury or death; instead, they reduce the injury or the likelihood of injury or death.

As more people have sex (protected or unprotected), infection rates will increase. We know that people will not totally abstain from sex. Since protection doesn't really work anyway, according to the logic used in your post, total abstinence is the only way to reduce (I did not say prevent) HIV infections. Again, we know that people will not totally abstain from sex, so it's a pretty easy conclusion to come to, for me, that the Catholic Church's method isn't working either. In the event that a couple is going to have sex, the safest way to do so is to wear a condom. Likewise, I don't feel totally safe in my car in terms of injury from an accident. My car is considered safe, has air bags, crumple zones, antilock brakes, and I wear a seat belt. Since I'm going to drive, what else can I do but do it as safely as possible if I don't want to get hurt or killed in an accident?

I have to say this before everyone bashes my last long post. I am not judging anyone. I am just giving and sharing information and trying to help people understand the teachings of the Catholic Church. I want people to have another perspective. Now you can either use the information or just brush it off. We all have free will and the Catholic Church will not be closing any condom plants any time soon. The Church has the right to Her teaching just as we have our right to free will. No one is making any one be Catholic or Christian for that matter.

I will say this if I would have followed the Churches teaching more closely I would not be in this forum right now. Just a thought. I do believe that condom use cuts the risk of transmission, but the Church is saying that it will not solve the problem, and they are right. And once again I love ya all, and find this site very informative and appreciate all of you.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Umm.. I love the way defense of religious views often results in a false dichotomy.... Your argument can be reduced to this:

"Condoms are not 100% effective, thus the only safe alternative is abstinence"and you follow it up with"If you do not abstain from sex, you do not care about your partner:.

Neat.

OK, let's assume that condoms really are not 100% effective. (we all know this is untrue, but hey, let's just assume for a minute.) Let's even assume that your assertion that 10 percent ineffective is also true. (your brain does the math..."hmmm 100 minus 90 equals 10...) Then you automatically conclude that the 10 percent is 100 percent ineffective. Thus 1 in 10 times , a condom user is 100 percent likely to infect a partner. Therefore, they don't care about their partner. wheeeeeee

This makes perfect sense only to people who want to believe in an agenda that is well past its time. This makes as much sense as trying to figure out who begat whom in the Bible.

Here are some things that muddy the waters of your assertions:

The Pope is perhaps promoting an agenda for no other reason except cherished dogma. Understanding that agenda before defending it is critical.Condoms are more effective than your statistic. Your proofs illustrated are based on biased data. Humans cannot abstain from sex. It's biological. You might as well ask people not to eat for moral reasons. Please.The spread of HIV can be stopped by finding a cure or vaccine.African countries aren't so good at keeping records. Heck, so-called industrialized countries aren't that good at it either.There are a lot of cultural issues in AFrica that contribute to the spread of HIV.People who love each other do not always make choices that are full of inspired rational decisions like "what abstract principle can I adhere to to make sure I am doing what's best for my loved one?" You just like to type a lot.

Sigh...

Maybe Richard Dawkins is right.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I think I will stick with Francis Collins who is head of the Human Genome Project, and is one of the worlds leading scientist. You might want to pick up his book titled The language of GOD. Its nice to have hope in this terminal world.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 07:06:45 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

It goes way past needles and condoms believe me. The Churches teachings are correct. But we find them hard to follow. I know I do, but I am not just going to say something is wrong just because it is hard to follow. I don't expect anyone to understand or even respect what I have to say. We all have free will and may use it in anyway we wish till we die.

I am not here to get into a big debate about the teachings of the Church, but I am going to stick up for Her teaching as I have a right to do. I want to give people another perspective, and if they choose to use it that's great if not so be it. I am also not here to judge people because I have enough faults for all combined on this forum.

Hugs to all, and as Forrest Gump said "that's all I am going to say about that". Till the next Catholic bashing then I might have to say my piece in a charitable way of course.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

I think I will stick with Francis Collins who is head of the Human Genome Project, and is one of the worlds leading scientist. You might want to pick up his book titled The language of GOD. Its nice to have hope in this terminal world.

What exactly makes you think that I haven't read Francis Collins? And, I don't really find it hopeful. In fact the idea that one should use god as the default alternative explanation to every question that cannot be answered fills me with the opposite of hope.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

All I can say is no matter what your perspective is regarding this MYSTERY of life is, we will all find out someday. Death is near for all. I would hope that there is a conclusion to all of this that will let me remember the people that I have loved, and the things that I have enjoyed while I participated in this thing called life.

The Christian faith does believe in GOD, and they have drawn some assumptions from scripture. As I have said in the past we are free to believe in the teachings or not that is up to each individual. No one is making anyone believe in anything.

If you find comfort in what Richard Dawkins is writing about that is great. If you want to put your faith in Atheism that is your choice, and you have free will to examine yourself to make that decision, and I respect that. We must also respect the opinion of other people that have other faiths. The Catholic Church has the obligation to instruct it flock, and if one decides to stray from the teaching they are free to do so.

I am not implying that you are a Atheist, I have no clue what you believe, but I would bet you are not a big fan of the Catholic Church . Hey bud what ever floats your boat. Use that free while while you can, and hopefully we will see each other on the other side. We all have to roll the dice.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

. We must also respect the opinion of other people that have other faiths. (...)

We all have to roll the dice.

Curious choice of words that we all have to roll the dice. It implies an uncertaintly in your argument that I find refreshing.

I categorically disagree with the assertion that we have to accord respect to a belief just because it is a religious belief. I believe that assumptions have to be questiioned.

My personal belief system isn't an issue here. Neither is yours. What's at issue is whether the argument that a non-existent 10 per cent failure rate in condoms implies that abstinence is the answer to the aids crisis in Africa. If I am to assume that this argument comes from a religious belief and therefore needs to be more respected because it invoked god... well then, I will counter that your argument is entirely godless, inasmuch as god, being perfect, would not find it reasonable to infect so many innocent people just because he imbued them with a desire to procreate.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Yes life is a roll of the dice. Faith and everything else. I just believe in what the Church teaches in regards to faith and morals. In the world we live in that belief is not very popular. It is very counter cultural. The Church is very consistant in what She teaches, and it gives the greatest amount of respect to GOD and the sanctity of human life. I never said it was an easy teaching, nor did I say many would understand the teaching, but if you take time to study it with an open heart it makes sense.

If I have made you feel refreshed with my idea that life is a MYSTERY then I have accomplished something good. My uncertainty comes from the MYSTERY of life and our ultimate purpose here. I am certain of the teachings of the Church and the direction that I personally will use to attain salvation through the sacrifice that CHRIST made on the cross and the inheritance he offers all who will follow.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:55:07 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

The simple fact that most Catholics have failed to understand is that for the non- (or in my case, former) Catholics see the Vatican as a politic entity that has a lot of money and influences that is accountable to no one. As the noted author Karen Armstrong has said, it's a dictatorship.

Hence, the Pope is no more than a politician, a public figure that somehow we have to accept (tolerate?) his existence and influences. If he says something that is plainly wrong, however, it doesn't matter to us how the arguments are being dressed up in layers of dogma like his papal chasuble. He HAS to be held accountable.

Now he's being attacked for his remarks about condoms. Has he and the Vatican publicity machine feel the need to address the attacks? No. So it wouldn't matter what his supporters (believers) have to say to defend him. We're demanding him and the political institute to clarify, correct etc those statements, i.e. holding his accountable.

Well it is so very special that Karen Armstrong has her opinion on the Catholic Church that has been around since the last supper. The Church is correct in Her teachings no matter what anyone thinks. I respect the fact that we all fall short in the glory of GOD, but that is no excuse to say that the Church is in error of its teaching in morality and faith. If one is not a Christian one is free to follow any teaching one desires. The Church has an obligation to instruct its flock on morals and Church teaching. Like I have stated before one can follow those teachings or leave the Church. I am just defending the theology of the Catholic Church and presenting a view point that is counter cultural. No one is making anyone believe anything here, and you are free to follow your free will. Its my personal belief in the instructions that are presented by the Magestarium of the Church. It is very hard to understand the theology of the body and accept the teachings of the Church. I understand that and willing to accept people as they are, but that does not mean that if one is a Christian one should not strive for Sainthood.

I would just say GOD bless to all and good luck on your journey.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

You make the error of confusing catholics with all christians. Personally I dont believe anything about the church or god.Furthermore the actual pope is a prince of darknesspromoting the death of milions of innocent. Note that there are other germans who have tried to do this before him. Wishing you good luck on your journey as well.