Iran Turns Embargo Tables: To Pass Law Halting All Crude Exports To Europe

In what is likely a long overdue move, Iran has finally decided to give Europe a harsh lesson in game theory. Instead of letting Euro-area politicians score brownie points at its expense by threatening to halt imports and cut off the Iranian economy, the Iranian government will instead propose a bill calling for an immediate halt to oil deliveries to Europe. The move, with most reports citing the Iranian news agency Mehr, has come about in response to the EU agreement to impose sanctions against Iran, which were announced earlier this week. And why not? After all if Europe is indeed serious, sooner or later Iran will be cut off but in the meantime experience significant policy uncertainty, which is precisely what the flipflops on the ground need. The one thing that Europe, however is forgetting, is that all that whopping 0.8 Mb/d in imports will simply find a new buyer.Quickly.

So with China, India and Russia already having bilateral agreements with Iran in place, we are confident that said buyer will have a contract signed, sealed and delivered within an hour of the proposed bill's passage. Furthermore, as SocGen speculated, the fact that Europe will be even more bottlenecked in its crude supplies (good luck Saudi Arabia with that imaginary excess capacity), and which just may force the IEA to release some more of that strategic petroleum reserve (and thus give JPM some more free money on the replenishment arbitrage) will send Brent to $125-150 - something which Iran will be delighted by. That is of course unless some "experts" discover that Iran may or may not have a complete arsenal of shark with fricking nuclear warheads attached to their heads (despite what Paneta has already said) which gives the US the green light for a full blown incursion, which in turn will send oil over $200, and the world economy into a global coordinated re-depression.

"If this bill is passed, the government will be forced to stop selling oil to Europe before the actual implementation of their sanctions," said Emad Hosseini, spokesman for the Iranian parliament's energy commission, reportedly said. The bill is set to become law on Sunday.

The EU sanctions allow for oil deliveries from Iran until July 1. Any pre-empting of this timescale by Tehran could prove problematic for countries like Italy, Greece and Spain, who would need to urgently find new suppliers.

China, meanwhile, a major importer of Iranian oil, has also criticized the EU sanctions. The Xinhua news agency quoted the Chinese Foreign Ministry on Thursday as saying: "To blindly pressure and impose sanctions on Iran are not constructive approaches."

Many members of the EU are now heavily dependent on Iranian oil. Some 500,000 barrels arrive in Europe every day from Iran, with southern European countries consuming most of it. Greece is the most exposed, receiving a third of all its oil imports from Iran, but Italy too depends on Iran for 13 percent of its oil needs. If this source were to dry up abruptly, the economic conditions in the two struggling countries could become even worse.

Already on Wednesday, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) warned of the economic consequences of the EU's planned embargo. Stopping deliveries from the world's fifth largest producer could drive up the price of oil by 20 to 30 percent.

Perhaps instead of doing its best at crippling the world energy markets, and crushing the global economy, Europe should stick to bailing itself out, and other activities in which it has extensive experience.

Here is the beef I have with the idea that an embargo is going to hurt Europe at all.

First, the world is awash in oil due to the fact that the futures market is being manipulated by Bernanke et al. This is causing oil producers to turn on the taps full bore even when no demand exists. The oil lost to Europe will easily be picked up by stockpiles elsewhere. Europe has nothing to fear.

Second, by having inflated oil prices this helped Iran's thuggish government stay in power. Stopping the European exports and forcing them to barter for oil will actually drive down the prices India, Russian and China will pay for oil through true supply and demand. Who will lose, IRAN.

False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to deceive the public in such a way that the operations appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than one’s own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations, and have been used in peace-time.

Expose the wicked intentions the Zionist warmongers and the Soetoro administration have in mind of igniting a war in the Persian Gulf. The phrase these misanthropes hate most nowadays is called FALSE FLAG since ordinary people are becoming aware of its meaning. Israeli submarines deployed in the Sea of Oman will sink an American warship that happens to be navigating close to the Strait of Hormuz – an attack to subsequently be blamed on Iran. Most likely one of these IDF/Navy submarines (Type 800 Dolphin class) is already operating in the Sea of Oman:

and that’s exactly what Israel demanded to the Obama administration: an old US Navy warship (in this case the USS Enterprise, pretty soon to be decommissioned) sent to the Persian Gulf.

Besides that, the following documentary produced by Univision titled "Submarino Israelí en operación secreta" (Israeli Submarine on a secret assignment) is targeting the Spanish-speaking masses living in the United States. This video clearly illustrates Israel's intentions of provoking an incident in the Sea of Oman in order to justify an American assault against the Islamic Republic.

Another plausible way by which Barry & Associates (including the Zionist warmongers) could justify a war against the Islamic Republic of Iran is by staging another FALSE FLAG ATTACK on continental United States: a controlled nuclear explosion (dirty bomb) targeting a major urban concentration that may kill dozens of thousands of civilians. This operation will be carried out by the CIA in partnership with Israel’s Mossad and British MI6 to subsequently be blamed on elements of Iran’s IRGC.

An Exocet missile, fired from beyond the visible horizon can easily sink a carrier. Automated point defense systems aside, it only takes ONE missile to sink a carrier. Well, gee, what do you know, Iran is a country with Exocet technology. Hmmm. My father always said there is more than one way to skin a cat. It does not have to be a sub, they just sink a damn vessel, hell just fire at one and damage it...USS Stark anyone?

Really? Oh, pray tell, regale us with your vast naval wisdom, Admiral. 2 Excocets ripped the SHIT out of a frigate - the USS Stark. One Exocet, with a 325 pound warhead ripped a ten-by-fifteen-foot hole in the warship's steel hull on the port side before ripping through the crew's quarters. The resulting fire rushed upward into the vessel's combat information center, disabling the electrical systems. The second missile plowed into the frigate's superstructure.

Aircraft carriers have an ARMORED magazine and an ARMORED fuel store. The rest of it is about as armored as your typical cruise liner. the hull thickness is only enough to maintain structural integrity. You obviously forget or DID NOT KNOW what one missile did to the USS Forrestal. and that was an ACCIDENT.

You obviously don't know how aircraft carriers are built these days. You'd need a missile big enough to split the carrier in two in order to sink it. Don't forget the carrier also has anti-missile defenses. There are a dozen support ships with Phalanx and other technologies to protec tthe carrier.

You have hit the nail on the head here. Search the term Israel False Flag and see what comes up. Keep searching over and over as more and more is written about these unholy evil zionist things that cause the false flag events for the globalist population reductionist banksters. Let the zionist babalonians know we know how they operate and so does EVERYONE ELSE!

Turn off the zio-media propaganda machine today. Americas greatest enemy is the lame stream media that daily bombards the nation with evil deceitful lies and dis/mis-information that misleads the people like leading the lemmings off the cliff of ignorance. If fox news told everyone to jump off the cliff, they are so dumbed down now, they probably would. This is the harshest evil war that has ever been declared against the American people and we are losing it. Most of the nation gets it's news from fox and if they were to tell the truth for a week, we could turn around almost every evil in the world, starting with the apartheid zionist govt of isreal and ZOG here in the usa.

ATTENTION: READ THIS ABOVE FROM WANKLORD AGAIN AND ADVERTISE IT, SHARE IT, POST IT, PASS IT, RE-PASTE IT, AND SPREAD THIS LIGHT ABOVE FAR AND WIDE. THEN SEARCH IT. THIS IS THE REAL DEAL AND THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW THAT WE ALL KNOW!

I do not want Iran, let alone another country, to acquire nuclear weaponry. Nuclear weaponry exponentionally raises the human misery and environmental consequences of warfare in a world where political and military leaders are no more rational or sane than most others, and they may succumb to bouts of being less so in high pressure/stress situations.

HOWEVER, I also do not support preemptive military "strikes" on any nation (if there was a certainty that a nation was going to act aggressively towards another, a military stike to prevent such activity would not be preemptive, but responding to die that were already cast), because 'surgical strike' is a mere slogan, devoid of reality, that military hawks devise to sell their actions as more palatable options to the public, given the snake oil salesmen that they and the politicians enabling them are.

Aside from the Madison Avenue marketing of killing humans for whatever 'in the name of,' even assuming that preemptive military strikes don't result in heavy human casualties, they inevitably raise the risk of follow-on events that cascade out of control, that even IBM's Watson can't accurately predict.

I am neither a hawk nor a dove.

I am flummoxed and vexed.

*Getting back to the core point, if Iran refuses to ship oil to any country, continent or company, isn't that entirely their right? Certainly this can't be framed as a provocative gesture used by politicians to try and further justify/twist the case that this is an act of military escalation, especially at a time when the west has launched a full-on assualt on Iran's central bank and economy, which we would characterize as full warfare if done to us.

There is more than enough military capacity in the region. France and the UK have thrown their hats in the ring, as it was French and British naval vessels that escorted the USS Abraham Lincoln through the Strait of Hormuz. French and British battle groups, as well as other NATO assets are being ramped up as we speak, just in case.

Two words: false flag

A false flag event against any allied power at this time would ostensibly remove political and economic pressures from the US, since they will not have "fired a shot in anger" but are instead "retaliating for an act of war committed against us or an ally". This would put China and Russia on a delicate balance point. Why? If they back an "aggressor state" against those who are seeking to quickly and for the "common good" resolve the military issue, they will be setting themselves up for an immediate counter stroke. This is not chess, it is not checkers, hell, it is not even poker. This is a straight up Russian slap fight. Last drunken Cossack standing wins.

There was a 'Viktor Suvorov' who was claiming this. Also, Paul Carell wrote that the KGB archives which were made public in 1989 indicated this. A lot of people think Carell is a hack; but maybe he was correct about the KGB archives. In the actual campaign, (if memory serves) there were a disproportionate number of T-34 and KV tanks encountered by the Axis on the Southern front, which might indicate that the Soviets had been massing their best armor for a pre-emptive strike on the Romanian oilfields.

Oh come on! It is hardly surprising the Soviets deployed lots of tanks considering the entire world had just watch aghast as Blitzkrieg became a household term of common conversation, minutes beforehand.

What were they supposed to do, just pretend a massive super-slick highly-mobile and very aggressive and well as horrendously-effective battle hardened-armoured divisions without compare were sitting right next door?

Suvorov wrote many books about the outbreak of the Nazi-Soviet War in 1941 and circumstances that led to it. The first such work was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov) with many others to follow. Suvorov's provocative idea is that Joseph Stalin originally planned to use Nazi Germany as a proxy (the "Icebreaker") against the West. For this reason Stalin provided material and political support to Adolf Hitler, while at the same time preparing his Red Army for an offensive against Nazi Germany and further against all of Western Europe. Suvorov argued that Hitler had no choice but to direct a unexpected preemptive strike at the Soviet Union, what we know today as Operation Barbarossa. In the end, Stalin was able to achieve some of his objectives by establishing Communist regimes in Eastern Europe and Asia. However this victory according to Suvorov was unsatisfying to Stalin, as he intended to bring Soviet domination to the whole continent of Europe.

Of course he has no facts to back it up. Stalin was so stunned whe Barbarosa was kicked off by the Nazis that he went into hiding for about a week. Stalin thought that he would be executed by his comrades for missing all the warnings that had come from Churchill about an impending Nazi invasion. Instead, his staff of comrades were scared shitless and looked to Stalin for leadership.

Read 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'... written by William Shirer. The book covers the period 1933-1945. Shirer was a foreign correspondent stationed in Berlin for much of the period and attended may Nazi gatherings and reported on them in real time. He also chronicled the meetings between the Nazi high staff and leaders of various countries that would become allies or enemies later on.

On the day that operation Barbarosa kicked off, Russian supply trains loaded with commodities were passing German troops heading into Russia. Do you think Stalin would have been honoring trade agreements if he knew he was going to be attacked?

To claim that Stalin was planning an attack on Nazi Germany is pure bull shit. Read your history, moron.

You rely on a book endorsed by the New York Times for your history? Take a deep breath. Ok, Stalin was preparing to attack so of course he was surprised that the Germans attacked first. The fact that you cite Shirer reveals you're clueless.

It will be the end-of-all, regarding the "Islam World" - respect for western culture will disintegrate overnight if the US joins in the battle - the Arab spring in all its fury will turn toward their Muslim brethren as comrades in arms - all because of, "God's Chosen [Peaceful/ Obliging Dirty Dozen] Tribes"!

Sadly, this is how the story/debate is framed, with a totally incorrect premise, and we just move on from there...

Iran is aiming to produce civilian-use nuclear stuff, you know, like electricity. Seems that this idea was firmly planted in their heads way back in the 1950s but the US! And, really, it's perfectly rational that they'd want to not use precious oil up and keep it for producing revenues (via export): of course, there's really NOTHING rational about nuclear shit anyway... (only sets things up for some massive failure, and ALL systems will eventually fail).

Yes, can you say HAARP is NOT used as a lethal clandestine weapon of mass destruction against Iran by the babylonians and ZOG? (zionist owned govt)

What is the Highest priority? The Sun. Next, war to distract the nations from the bankster takeover and destruction of the old world and to kill off billions of breathers and useless eaters. Start a new monetary system and crawl out of the bunker/rat holes a hundred years later to claim what is left of a world that will no longer support any life at all.

An illusionist says, watch my hand up here, as he pick-pockets you with his other hand down there.

First you almost lost me at "...when no demand exists" , but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read on to see if you had a point. I mean I thought you might be referring to the decline in the western empires' consumption and were planning on getting around to the ever increasing demand coming from the East and developing nations...

Europe will pretend not to buy oil from Iran. Iran will pretend not to sell it. Eventually, the European people will wonder why their leaders let some of the leading nut cases on the planet wave nuclear tipped missiles at them.

Sadly, the euporean people have been neutered and dumbed down so they no longer have the guts to stand up to their ZOG that has already conquered them. Orwell won there without a shot fired. Really sad to think this is also happening in america, a once was great nation. Now, we are the stooges for the zionist/rothchild/bankster/eugenicists that want to KILL US ALL OFF! Stupid is as stupid does. Take your number and follow the lemming in front of you.

When will the World's people get it? We all have the same common enemy. Those who dance on dark stars, run the worlds media weapons of mass distraction, and call money god. There really are answers to save a planet of lemmings. The question might be, is it too late to unite world wide and defeat this beast that seeks to kill us all?

Division is a disease that was created by man to control other men. God created the Family of Man, all One. The commonalities being we are all made up of the four basic elements, fire, water, earth, and air, and all share the commonalty of being the same in Spirit. The heart knows no difference between good energy. It does however know the pain of conflictive inharmonious vibrations that do not resonate there. The only differences are the ones they SAY there are. Individuality is like a snowflake. It takes many to make a snowstorm and a snow storm would not be a snowstorm without every unique integral snowflake.

The one thing EVERYONE on the planet must ask, and especially when it comes to the leader puppet election, IF WE HAVE IT, is do we all WANT MORE WAR OR NOT? It is that dam simple. Never mind all the rhetoric the normal prostitutes and globalists for wall street are saying now, if you want to know where they are coming from, compare the voting records. Easy peazy and a simple decision to make.

TO WAR FOR MORE BANKSTERS PROFIT, OR NOT TO WAR, THAT IS THE QUESTION.

Priceless move.. hat tip... Oh wait .. does this mean I have to pay more at the pump... Costs 100 usd/70 EU to fill my tank as it is.. I c dead cars @ $250 a barrel in 3 years.. they just don't know they are dead.

Mr_T, I see $30 a barrel when the market collapses in a few months. The oil producers will shut off the taps. When the excess oil is removed from the market after a year or two, then you will have your $150+ barrel price after everyone is wiped out of jobs and any real means to make a living.

Vamp respectfully disagee .. yes might have a dip like u mentioned never to $30. At that price the central Asians would be stockpiling huge getting out of Usd's . If you read any Chris martensons presentations might change ur view on oil. Brgrds.

Central Asian countries are economically collapsing just as ZH has pointed out. Yes, they will stockpile oil until they have no where to put it at $30. The price will then remain depressed since no one will want oil. It is basic supply and demand. Revert to the mean. Deflation bitchez!!

I've argued this point for so many years now I'm even getting sick of it, but... it's NOT price, it's AFFORDABILITY. I think (though I haven't read all the posts in this thread) that Vamp might be indicating this aspect.

No, one doesn't have to be in disagreement with Peak Oil (production; or, as I warn- peak oil imports) to suggest low-looking price numbers. Besides, what if MASSIVE deflation were to occur, could the USD perhaps buy a lot more? And, one other thing to factor in, though it's hard to conceive of now, is that the US could drop out of the global economy in order to horde its own oil; pricing would therefor be all internally-based.

One day people will forget about oil, forget about the oil-paradigm because they won't be able to afford it (even at a low cost- such as the case for existing billions of humans on this planet, TODAY).

If there was so much excess on the markets, why did the US tap into it's strategic reserves when Lybian oil went offline, even after Saudi Arabia pledged to make up the shortfall? The reason why is that Saudi Arabia has no excess reserves without damaging their own abilities for future production. This is all due to the fact that global oil production (read cheap oil) peaked in the mid 2000's (2005-07), supply has flattened and as such countries are scrambling to meet demand. The only way demand is curbed is through price spikes, since the world economy cannot accomodate pricing above the $100/barrel mark (+/-). When we see massive price dips it is only on the back end of demand destruction, but the dips keep getting shallower as capacity keeps shrinking.

You seriously need to study up on Peak Oil, otherwise you will continue to misinterpret the markets, and global events that center on energy acquisition.

Europe effectively stepped on their own dicks by following Israel/US inane drive to go after Iran. The fact of the matter is Israel and the US would be better off if they let Iran be. If for some reason Iran did anything stupid and over the top, there is a better chance for a international solution to the problem. But since they are viewed as co-aggressors, they are on the loosing side of the bargin, as Iran calls their bluff and shifts supply to areas where demand isn't coupled with Western warmongering.

Call Timmay and threaten to hold a press conference at which they publicly announce their decision to offload a couple of trillion of USTs the following morning, thereby locking the US and China into a financial MAD scenario?

Except that Bernanke has already successfully tested the idea of the Fed buying up any excess Treasuries (that's essentially what QE2 was all about or was it QE1, I forget). I know the "foreigners will stop buying our debt" is tried-and-true, but I'm not sure it would be that big a deal. It might be if the U.S. was the only country buying its own debt, but it seems like everyone is doing it these days.

Six million dollar question: what does Russia and China do when push really comes to shove on Iran?

Nothing. They will cave in. Anyplace where there is fiat money, there is a powerful lever to influence policy. And that's everywhere. It's not all-powerful, but it's powerful.

There are three people in the world. 1) Guys who own title to oil producing land. 2) Bankers who print fake money. 3) The rest of us. Note that 3) loses all the time, 2) loses from time to time, but 1) never, ever loses - any game, any war, any time. Never.

That is exactly what they would do En Masse to the tune of literally trillions of US Dollars, creating a worldwide cascade sell off by every salient and sentient holder to Treasuries, who will want to GTFO so they do not lose their asses in the violent downward move. Worldwide ponzi collapse, and economic paradigm shift. 50 years ago, the Chinese government had no gold in their vaults. Today they are the 10th largest holder of gold in the world. This is not counting the millions, if not more, physical ounces being held privately by Chinese citizens who have been encouraged by the Chinese government to BUY BUY BUY. A collapse of the Petrodollar would hurt China far less than it would Europe or the US.

Russia's sole play is to cut off Europe's gas. They have no military card to play...we're too powerful in that regard.

China? fuck them. Any given week half their workforce is threatening to jump. They can yell a lot, but what's the downside, they are going to steal some IP from us? They'll unpeg from our dollar? ZOMG...they have no cards to play whatsoever.

China unpegs Yuan from US dohlah, maybe even backs its currency with real and actual gold. Yuan appreciates dramatically, China's massive production infrastructure (thanks you greedy multinationals) is subsequently supported by over a billion people who suddenly find themselves with a lot more purchasing power.

Russia's sole play is to cut off Europe's gas. They have no military card to play...we're too powerful in that regard.

China? fuck them. Any given week half their workforce is threatening to jump. They can yell a lot, but what's the downside, they are going to steal some IP from us? They'll unpeg from our dollar? ZOMG...they have no cards to play whatsoever.

That would make some sense Trav, if they were not working together as they clearly have been more-or-less since WWII.

Doubt it? ... just have a look at their similar or else same interoperable weaponry and defence systems.

What's missing?

Have they not developed a baseline ability to work together as allies with global reach?

Same applies to Iran, and Syria, Pakistan, and Venezuela ... and several significant others.

You can not just discount them as individuals, as singular entities, because that is not what the US-NATO is really facing here.

if you've got something that the world needs, or can't do without - you'll find yourself with alot of friends

china needs the oil, period

russia doesn't need the oil, but would love turning the ME, into a satellite nation

iran wants nuclear power to bring itself into the 21st century like its neighbors, the saudi's, just southwest of the persian gulf & gulf of oman - what they see is kuwait, bahrain, qatar, and all of saudi arabia living in comfort from their oil revenues

are they asking to much?

they've witness their western neighbor iraq's devestation,... and for what - a lifetime of sanctions/

answer: neither russia's putin, or will china's growing dependence on oil,... let the US or Israel walk-in and occupy

the difference being that the scoundrel knows he is spouting lies... whereas the average pro-war american somehow has convinced himself that starting wars all over the planet is a good thing... for someone.... for some fucked up reason.

I continue to be in awe of Zh'ers. It's one of the few places on the web that users use logic and reason to formulate thought and ideas. It is one of the few places where a substantial number of people can think for themselves and when they reached the age of reason, they have realized that most of the the things (memes) we were brainwashed with early on were complete and utter bullshit. It is also amazing that a few "free thinkers" still can't let go of that American superiority complex.

You create conflict with unsubstantiated, demeaning ideas that have no internal consistency and are aggressive to the other participants. Basically, you want to argue, you want to fight, but we are here to discuss. In such an "argument", we cannot lose, because we are not playing your game - hence you cannot win, because you do not have opponents. But you decide to play that aggressivity game, thus the only position you can find yourself in is losing.

Does that make you bitter? Stop identifying with your opinions and open your mind to some authentic discussion.

"You create conflict with unsubstantiated, demeaning ideas that have no internal consistency and are aggressive to the other participants."

<chuckle> yeah, it was well said. But you forgot the /sarc taq on your compliment akak. After all, that same comment could just as easily be directed at you and maintain it's relevance, without having to alter a single word.

I did not think I would need to explicitly substantiate my statement since NOTW777's sequence of posts is accessible to anybody who had been reading the thread.

To somebody affirming a pride of Iran's actions on the global geopolitical stage, as a non-interventionist nation that legitimately stands by its national sovereignty, he went on a rent about its internal politics (which is in a big part overrepresented by biased corporate media, in a big part the effect of the U.S.'s previous meddling with the region, and then, only then, also somewhat factual yet still irrelevant), then accussed his interlocutor of cheering evil.

When the latter underlined how the US loses in the comparison with Iran - highest incarceration rate in the world, no respect of individual rights, sustained war crimes and crimes against humanity for centuries - he only stated it was BS, skipped the matter entirely and dismissed the speaker in a rhetorical attack that was easily identified as such.

Then when somebody underlined the capacity of the posters on this board to keep the discussion civil, according to generally agreed rules of rhetoric - that is, preventing it from devolving in childish arguments and attacks - NOTW777 sneered derisively. I then made my previously mentionned putdown.

Please indicate how my previous post was creating conflict, unsubstantiated, demeaning, without internal consistency or agressive? I aim to resolve the conflict through a thorough analysis of its manifestations, not to feed it.

Let it be said that I am not the one to whom akak's green arrow belongs. I believe my comment should stand for itself.However I do understand that, without context, my comment could have been construed as hilariously self-referential irony. I hadn't seen that until you created the need for me to expose the underlying rationale.

Thinkforyourself, you have absolutely NOTHING for which to apologize, or to defend here --- your civility and rational discourse are beyond reproach. Please note that the poster who so flippantly dismissed and sneered at you is known for doing so regularly with other members here, and while not being a crude or ignorant flamer like the member with the yellow-faced avatar, I promise that you will get nowhere in trying to logically or calmly refute his smug and dismissive, evasive nonsense; better you not even try.

Thank you Akak. I'm grateful for your intention, however please take care in avoiding to label posters thusly. It does not support my ideas in any way. For instance, Trav7777 can sometimes be one of the worst assholes I've met on this forum, yet often enough he has comments that I'd +10 if I could.I guess that what I intend to say is, when dealing with a comment I strive, and mostly manage, to only deal with what is inside the comment box, and not bring the past into it. You might end up finding yourself entertaining interesting discussions with someone you would have labelled troll otherwise.

I guess that what I intend to say is, when dealing with a comment I strive, and mostly manage, to only deal with what is inside the comment box, and not bring the past into it. You might end up finding yourself entertaining interesting discussions with someone you would have labelled troll otherwise.

That is an excellent point that we would all do well to keep in mind, TFY, and one which I will be the first to admit that I have not always successfully managed to do. But I have made peace with several posters whom I initially or for a time dismissed as "trolls", and with whom I have had succeeding productive exchanges, such as WonderDawg.

Is your handle taken from that chincy Christian clothing line "Not Of This World", and on top of that you add the three-fold prerfection number? Are you seriously buying into the anachronistic evangelical schtick that believes that everything that Israel does is good because Jesus is going to save them before the end of the great tribulation? So every action taken against Israel, no matter how much they have it coming, is somehow evil because it's an attack against God's chosen people? What happens when they assasinate foreign leaders and scientists, like they did on Iranian soil, when there is not one shred of evidence that Iran is building up its nuclear portfolio to bring power to a population that badly needs it?

If you knew anything about US history with Iran, which has a proud 3000 year history, and a political heritage with depth, you would understand why the Iranian regeime has taken such an understandably adversarial stance with the USG. Among those reasons: we had no problem pillaging their oil with our puppets ruling their nation, and our unflinching support of an infallable Israeli state. Iran is far from an ideal state, and probably would be better off without the Iyatolla's running the show, but they have kept Iran free from Western control for over 3 decades, after being the pawns of the US and Brittan for the better part of the 20th century.

Go back and read your bible, and for that matter some good commentary on the book of Revelation that asserts that the divinely sanction Jewish state ended in AD 70 when their temple was destroyed by Rome. Nor is Scripture a road map that tells you exactly how to interpret current events, this view is absolutely dangerous. This means that the modern Israeli state is no more divinely sanctioned than any other nation, and ought to be held accountable to international law, just like the rest - meaning they should stop disposessing their neighbors of their land, and start recognizing the hornets nest that they have stirred up in the Middle-East with US backing. Christians historically have never done themselves favors when they get overly involved in the political affairs of this world under spiritual auspices, and American evangeilcals have done irreprable harm in conflating Middle Eastern politics into their cockamamie dispensational theology, which they have leveraged into an overblown foreign policy that has lead to a carte blanche support of Israel, and the unneccessary and undiplomatic repession of Arab states - which conveniently satisfies our insatiable thirst for foreign oil... you know, stuff that Jesus was really concerned with during his earthly ministry

If NOTW is the Christian handle I suspect it is, you might also want to reconsider your handle and stop reducing the faith handed down from the saints to stupid sloganeering. And while your at it, read some history of the region before spewing the dangerous bullshit that you currently hold to.

I don't think that it is necessarily a superiority complex to say "if you are so unhappy or you are so fond of xyz country, go live there". Granted many other American attitudes are very arrogant but why is it wrong to suggest that someone put themselves in a (self-percieved) better social\political\economic environment?

I wouldn't even have a problem with someone migrating to\from my country and then reversing thier decision after they saw that the grass wasn't as green as they thought it would be.

It's a relatively free country, if you don't like being here, try somewhere else. I am sure they will let you leave if you decide to come back...or will they?

why should I have to move away? The U.S. government and its illegal and immoral policies are the issue. Moving away = running away. Running away is not the answer, its time to stand and fight this shit however one is able, including speaking out.

When the entire world consists of prison camps of only modestly differing severities, it is specious and intellectually insulting to tell a dissatisified inmate of any given camp "Well, you are free to leave at any time!".

It is also amazing that a few "free thinkers" still can't let go of that American superiority complex.

I agree with all you say, this part I believe comes from the fact, that the world would be speaking German & Japanese, if it were not for America,plus we have given aid to anyone and everyone on this planet for over 75yrs, whether they needed it or not.

But on who's dime? Japan was goaded into attacking and the Germans would have lost their asses even without our help...suggested reading:

World War IIThe Rest of the Story and How It Affects You Today1930 to September 11, 2001, Revised Edition.Part Two of a two-part series about the World Wars

by Richard J. Maybury

"The best book I've read on World War II. It provides genuinely original insights on why the U.S. didn't need to become involved, and destroys many myths that persist about the war. Maybury ties the misunderstandings about World War II to the misunderstanding about today's U.S. foreign policy." —Harry Browne

The real fun begins with two "real" ZHers disagree. It will keep you laughing the whole afternoon. As for the sleeping middle class with taking points, I welcome new comers to ZH and hope they will wake up. ZH does this one person at a time and that is what I hope for.

AND...When you have been beaten, it is a privilege to be beaten at the fight club.

john39 A greed Unfortunately in such places where the blind are leading the blind we see that evil becomes "some place else but certainly not here". Evil appears in many forms and is deceptive beyond measure yet the fools among us ignore the warning signs they are being led to the slaughter by their chosen 'ruler of fools'. Evil destroys those who tolerate or embrace it. Evil must not be allowed to flourish in any way shape or form when properly recognized only with wisdom that is not of this world. Komplacency Kills.

Here in the land of the living there is certainly nothing new under the sun.

Yeah because America doesn't disappear innocent people...and GITMO is a conspiracy theory...And the Abu Ghraib photos were "photo shopped" by the al-Qaeda special effect department...And no innocent people are sitting in American jails.

Maybe your perspective would change too if you had a family member murdered or maimed by America's senseless war of aggression in Iraq and other places? How about the 500,000 Iraqi kids who died because of sanctions imposed on Iraq 1990s? According to Madeline Albright that is an acceptable price. Perhaps your perspective would change too if one of them was your child?

In agreement here but I just feel like detailing it at a slightly deeper level, because the US and the West never overthrew Iran's first moderate democracy, making them suffer under decades of rabid western-interest tyranny, thus provoking the expected reaction that the people would depose the dictator at some point, turning back to radical nationalism as an hegelian counterbalance to the western oppression suffered, this reaction back towards radical nationalism being itself again hijacked by CIA asset Khomeini, in order to establish the radical islamism which is now supposedly the next chapter of the dialectical "problem", right?

The EU's stance on this is pathetic. They're like the sherriff in the movie 'Blazing Saddles' holding himself hostage - 'Do what we say, Iran, or we'll deprive our feeble economies of essential energy supplies!'

Can't argue with that, although for the sake of clarity I would like to draw a distinction between the pathetic yet megalomaniacal, Brussels based 'European Union' organisation, and the actual continent and states of Europe, which are mostly not pathetic at all.