Abbreviation used in the text (which was not mentioned so far, as far as I know):AT-M Athrabeth, manuscript

Base text is the typescript of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, which is found in the Morgoth's Ring, the 10th volume of The History of Middle-earth.

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Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
The Debate of Finrod and Andreth

Of the Wise some were women, and they were greatly esteemed among Men, especially for their knowledge of the legends of ancient days. Another Wise-woman was Adanel, sister of {Hador Lorindol} [Magor] at one time Lord of the People of Marach, whose lore and traditions, and their language also, were different from those of the People of Bëor. But Adanel was married to a kinsman of Andreth, Belemir of the House of Bëor{: he was grandsire of Emeldir, mother of Beren} <AT-M , grandson of Belen second son of Bëor the Old, to whom the wisdom of Bëor (for Bëor himself had been one of the Wise) was chiefly transmitted>. Belemir was also a grandsire of Emeldir, mother of Beren. {In her youth Andreth had dwelt long in Belemir's house} <AT-M And there had been great love between Belemir and Andreth his younger kinswoman (the daughter of his second cousin Boromir)>, and she dwelt long in his house, and so had learned from Adanel much of the lore of the People of Marach, besides the lore of her own folk.

To explain my changes:

1. In the later versions of the genealogies Adanel is sister of Magor, Hador's grandfather.

2. & 3. These changes are taken up from the manuscript of "Athrabeth" which adds additional information on the House of Bëor.

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We have seen it, and we fear it,“ answered Finrod. „We too may die, Andreth; and we have died. My father's father was cruelly slain, and many have followed him, exiles in the night, in the cruel ice, in the insatiable sea. And in Middle-earth we have died, by fire and by smoke, by venom and the cruel blades of battle. Fëanor is dead, and {Fingolphin was trodden under the feet of the Morgoth} [Argon Fingolfin's son too].

As Christopher Tolkien remarks (also!), I simply have no explanation of Fingolfin's death happening at such an early time, especially since it is said in the text, that the Siege of Angband is still taking place.

Now, concerning the change I made, it might be (probably is) a little too liberal, but Argon is (along with Amrod/Amarthan) the only prince of the Noldor to have died before the year in which the debate takes place. In addition, it would be nice (in my opinion) to insert a reference to a character that was otherwise 'lost' in the published Silmarillion.

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„I had heard,“ said Andreth, „that it was to regain your treasure that your Enemy had stolen; but maybe the House of {Finarfin} [Arfin] is not at one with the Sons of Fëanor. Nonetheless for all your valour, I say again: 'what know ye of death?' To you it may be in pain, it may be bitter and a loss – but only for a time, a little taken from abundance, unless I have been told untruth. For ye know that in dying you do not leave the world, and that you may return to life.

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„They have no certainty and no knowledge, only fears, or dreams in the dark,“ answered Andreth. „But hope? Hope, that is another matter, of which even the Wise seldom speak.“ Then her voice grew more gentle. „Yet, Lord Finrod of the House of {Finarfin} [Arfin], of the high and puissant Elves, perhaps we may speak of it anon, you and I.“

It was only after the death of Fingolfin that Finrod changed the name of his father from 'Arfin' to 'Finarfin'. If we follow this notion, then all references to 'Finarfin' as mentioned by the characters in the dialogue must be either removed or changed. I have chosen the later.

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Appendix: The Tale of Adanel

Then Andreth being urged by Finrod said at last: „This is the tale that Adanel of the House of {Hador} [Marach] told to me: ...

Again, the problem of chronology. At the time of the debate, Hador was pretty young (18 or 19) and it seems to me unlikely that the name of the House of Marach was changed to that of the House of Hador at such an early time in Hador's life.

It seems you did skip all the introduction. That is not as I would handle it. I would rather keep all of the introduction.

To your changes 1., 2. and 3. I agree.

I agree that we have to skip the death of Fingolfin from speech of Finrod, but I find it to much of a liberty to introduce Argon here instaed.

Arfin/Finarfin: I can understand how you arived at these changes, but I do not agree that the change is neccessary. If we would do it here, we would consequently have to change each and every name of the main charchters at least once in the long run of the Translation from the Elvish. With the main Charchters that might be possible, but with such small roles as Finarfin? I think we would leave our readers completly irritated. If we look into the published Silmarillion the names are rather stable. And I think that is an neccessity of readability or better understandability.

Again I think that we have to use more of the Authors Note that introduced the Tale of Adanel. In the moment I am still in thought about how to do that, but I am sure that we should not take up the Tal of Adanel into the body of the text of the Athrabeht. It was Tolkiens explicite decision to let Andreth refuse to tell Finrod about the Fall of Men. In his commentray he gave the addition of the tal as a result of Númenorian editing. And it seems to me the best way to keep that destinction.

Last but least I think that we have to discuss the passages where the time frame is hinted at. Two passages, I think, give at least the expression of a much longer
time that elapsed between the awkening of Men and conversation of Andreth and Finrod. I will search the passages later and post them here for discussion.

Respectfuly
Findegil
I agree that we have to change the Hador to Marach at the start of the Tale of Adanel.

It seems you did skip all the introduction. That is not as I would handle it. I would rather keep all of the introduction.

Oh! I didn't jettison the introduction (in the text), of course. I simply skipped the intro when I proposed changes here, considering I did not find anything to change in it.

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I agree that we have to skip the death of Fingolfin from speech of Finrod, but I find it to much of a liberty to introduce Argon here instaed.

I agree. We should remove the reference to Argon.

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Arfin/Finarfin: I can understand how you arived at these changes, but I do not agree that the change is neccessary. If we would do it here, we would consequently have to change each and every name of the main charchters at least once in the long run of the Translation from the Elvish. With the main Charchters that might be possible, but with such small roles as Finarfin? I think we would leave our readers completly irritated. If we look into the published Silmarillion the names are rather stable. And I think that is an neccessity of readability or better understandability.

Considering this change - it might be a little strange to a reader who doesn't know the history of Finarfin's name, but I'm still inclined to keep it - but only when the mention of Arfin/Finarfin is coming from the mouth of a character (i.e. in the dialogue)

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Again I think that we have to use more of the Authors Note that introduced the Tale of Adanel. In the moment I am still in thought about how to do that, but I am sure that we should not take up the Tal of Adanel into the body of the text of the Athrabeht. It was Tolkiens explicite decision to let Andreth refuse to tell Finrod about the Fall of Men. In his commentray he gave the addition of the tal as a result of Númenorian editing. And it seems to me the best way to keep that destinction.

After some consideration I tend to agree with keeping the "Tale of Adanel" in the appendix. About the "author's notes" - I'll have to think about it and see if something could be salvaged - but the fact is that the "Athrabeth" is one of the few Tolkien's finished works and I am a bit reluctant to meddle with it too much.

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Last but least I think that we have to discuss the passages where the time frame is hinted at. Two passages, I think, give at least the expression of a much longer
time that elapsed between the awkening of Men and conversation of Andreth and Finrod. I will search the passages later and post them here for discussion.

Well, I did find some fishy passages - but I think they are ambiguous enough. (I mean, 300 years could still be taken as a long time, for example - although it wasn't in the context of 300 years that it was mentioned.)

Okay, I have at long least done my home work for this discussion. You will find in the following editorial marks as we used before and the editing as odl members are used to. To distiguish the points discussed here from that of other chapters I used AFA-ZZ to mark all points of interest.

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Athrabeth Finrod ah AndrethAFA-01<AFA commentary The Debate of Finrod and Andreth>AFA-02 Now the Eldar learned that, according to the lore of the Edain, ...
Concerning these things it is recorded ...
Finrod (son of Finarfin, son of Finwe) was ... He it was that first met Men in Beleriand and befriended them; and for this reason he was often called by the Eldar AFA-03{Edennil}<AFA ManuscriptAtandil (or >Edennil), 'the Friend of Men'. ...
Andreth was a woman of the House of Beor, the sister of Bregor father of Barahir (whose son was Beren One-hand the renowned). She was wise in thought, and learned in the lore of Men and their histories AFA-04<AFA Manuscript /and she /learned also all that she could hear of the Eldar>; for which reason the Eldar called her Saelind, 'Wise-heart'.
Of the Wise some were women, and they were greatly esteemed among Men, especially for their knowledge of the legends of ancient days. Another Wise-woman was Adanel, sister of AFA-05{Hador Lorindol}[Magor] at one time Lord of the People of Marach, whose lore and traditions, and their language also, were different from those of the People of Beor. But Adanel was married to a kinsman of Andreth, Belemir of the House of Beor AFA-06<AFA Manuscript , grandson of Belen second son of Beor the Old, to whom the wisdom of Beor (for Beor himself had been one of the wise) was chiefly transmitted.> {: he}Belemir was grandsire of Emeldir, mother of Beren. AFA-07<AFA Manuscript And there had been great love between Belemir and Andreth his younger kins-woman (the daughter of his second cousin Boromir), and> {In}in her youth {Andreth}she had dwelt long in Belemir's house, and so had learned from Adanel much of the lore of the People of Marach, besides the lore of her own folk.
In the days of the peace ...
...
'We have seen it, and we fear it,' answered Finrod. 'We too may die, Andreth; and we have died. My father's father was cruelly slain, and many have followed him, exiles in the night, in the cruel ice, in the insatiable sea. And in Middle-earth we have died, by fire and by smoke, by venom and the cruel blades of battle. Feanor is dead, and AFA-08{Fingolphin was trodden under the feet of the Morgoth}<editorial addition Argon Fingolfin's son too>.
...
'I will not,' said Andreth. 'We do nor speak of this to those of other race. But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices; for whatever happened AFA-09 long ago, we have fled from it; we have tried to forget, and so long have we tried that now we cannot remember any time when we were not as we are - save only legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was still far longer, but already there was death.'
...
'We have thought that this was so only because the Elves have lasting life and undiminished vigour. "Grown-up children" we, the guests, sometimes call you, my lord. And yet - and yet, if nothing in Arda for us holds its savour long, and all fair things grow dim, what then? Does it not come from {[}the{]} Shadow upon our hearts? Or do you say that it is not so, but this was ever our nature, even before the wound?'
...
'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through AFA-10 years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'
'They say, they feign?' said Finrod. 'Are you then nor one of them?'
...
'But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me.'

AFA-11<AFA CommentaryThe Tale of Adanel>AFA-12<AFA Author's Note 9 on the 'Commentary' It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more AFA-13<AFA Commentrayabout the {He uncovers a concomitant} tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster>.
Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: ‘This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-14 Hador told to me.’ The Numenoreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. {[Added note: }Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.{]} The operations of Sauron naturally and inevitably resembled or repeated those of his master. That a people in possession of such a legend or tradition should have later been deluded by Sauron is sad but, in view of human history generally, not incredible. Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish, it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered.

The 'Tale of Adanel'
Then Andreth being urged by Finrod said at last: 'This is the tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-15 Hador told to me.'

Some say the Disaster happened ...
...

Whithout editing mark: Finraphin must be changed at least to Finrafin. I already commented on the change to Arfin proposed by Arvegil145AFA-01: I tried to avoid the naming of the Tale of Adanel as an Appendix, therefore I intorduce this sub-heading and a similar one for that Tale under AFA-10.AFA-02: Under this reference we should discuss the complete intorduction and how much of it we would use.AFA-03 and AFA-04: As the Manuscript is the later text, I think we should use what is provided of it.AFA-05: This is Arvegils change 1. It is a bit strange to me that this was not changed in the small genalogical table provided by Christopher Tolkien. But things become clearer when we read in HoME 11. There Adanel is named a daughter of Malach Aradan and with this the sister of Magor.AFA-06 and AFA-07: These were Arvegils145 changes 2. and 3. but i think I edited them a bit diffrent.AFA-08: Even so I my self found the addition of Argon to liberal, I see now a strong need for a replacement for Fingolfin. It read very stange to mention Feanor as the only named dead. Alternativly we could either put some colloquila phrase like 'and many beside him' or we must skip the mention of Feanor as well.AFA-09 and AFA-10: These are the passages that suggest a longer time between the Fall of Men and the cinverstation between Finrod and Andreth. I agree somewhat hestitatingly to Arvegil145 that they might stand.AFA-11: Only the title. I skipt naming it appendix.AFA-12: Even if the style is bit awakward, I found the Note 9 useable as in intorduction supossedly written by the later editor of our book looking back to the through the ages of Middle-Earth.AFA-13: Since we have no reference we must provied one here.AFA-14 and AFA-15: Since we revaled in the introduction that we are dealing with a Numenorean source I think we could let the name House of Hador stand. But this can be disputed.

AFA-11<AFA Commentary The Tale of Adanel>
AFA-12<AFA Author's Note 9 on the 'Commentary' It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more AFA-13<AFA Commentray about the {He uncovers a concomitant} tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster>.
Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: ‘This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-14 Hador told to me.’ The Numenoreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. {[Added note: }Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.{]} The operations of Sauron naturally and inevitably resembled or repeated those of his master. That a people in possession of such a legend or tradition should have later been deluded by Sauron is sad but, in view of human history generally, not incredible. Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish, it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered.

Well I have to study all the post of this thread with more time. Only say faster that the introduction, I managed inserting it in the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar , to start the "tale" more "literaturist".
I'll follow the posts.

Sorry for being impatient, but I only have 4 weeks of free time, so I'm kind of rushing headlong!

But are we finished with the Athrabeth or is there something more to add (or exclude from) it?

If we are finished with this I propose to start a thread on the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves. Since, as Findegil says, there are many points of dissension concerning that chapter - and as if that was not enough, the chapter is a mess, a mosaic of many different sources.

Arvegil145, didn't you say that you have read a lot in this part of the downs, before you started to post? Begin finished with a chapter would mean that a consensus would have been found about the discussed points. I can not see that this is the case with some of the points in the Athrabeth. Ba the way, I will not consider a agreement between you and me as sufficient.

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: If you like to have our input to your 'Silamrillion-project', you have to accept our slow speed. From my experience, it will not fasten the process to put more and more texts for discussion out here. But I can not and will not force you not to post what ever you like.

Hi guys! I thought I'd add my 2 cents about the Athrabeth, to give a kinda third opinion and hopefully resolve some of the debates by allowing for more opinions.

I agree with Findegil on his point that it should be Finarfin, and not Arfin. This is too specific a linguistic gymnastic, and I think keeping the names the same throughout is better. However, I would favor Arvegil's option to keep it as "Arfin" whenever Finrod speaks, with a footnote using the quote from the shibboleth, presumably from the same author as the one who wrote the commentary on the Athrabeth. This is simply canonical fact that Finrod would have referred to him as Arfin, as FIngolfin was still high king ofthe Noldor.

As for the question of including Argon in the list of the dead, if we were to add the lines about him from the Shibboleth into the story of the first battle of the Noldor, then I see no reason why his mention would cause canonical ire. It replaces the (already at the time of writing) contra-canon statement about the death of Fingolfin, and keeps the sense of the understanding of loss, while still being entirely canonically accurate.

About the change Finarfin -> Arfin: We have no hint that Tolkien would have made such a change in the course of such a long text. On the conteray, if consequently made, we would have to use in the Valinorien part of The Translation from the Elvish the Quenya names and after the anouncement of Thingol that his poeple should not answer to anyone using Quenya we would have to change them all to the Sindarin names. But again nothing of that is seen in the slightes way in all the texts we have. It is in the linguistical texts that Tolkien does explain such things. That is were they belong and in such I would also include them in our work. The sole exceptions that comes to mind are Melkor/Morgoth or Nienor/Niniel. And of these Nienor/Nieniel is a special case since it is only in a relativly short text where she is one of the main charachters. Melkor/Morgoth remains as the sole example, but he is again a main charachter and his name is omnipresent in the texts. Therefore that change is by no means detoriating the readability. Or let's say the reader will easily recognise the charachter before and after the change being very soon used to both names. That definitly would be different with Arfin. And an editorial note explaining to the reader a dificulty that we put ourself into the text is completly unaccatable in my understanding of the rules this project has given itself.

And there comes to mind this passge from the Shibboleth: '... Fëanor is the form nearly always used in histories and legends, but is as it stands only half Sindarized: the genuine Sindarin form was Faenor; the form Fëanor (the ë is only a device of transcription, not needed in the original) probably arose through scribal confusion, especially in documents written in Quenya, in which ea was frequent but ae did not normally occur.[/quote]If we follow Arvegil145's call for consitency, would that mean to change 'Fëanor' in the Valinorian part to 'Fëanaro' and afterwards to 'Faenor'. But than consitancy is lost instade of gained since 'Fëanor' is included three times in The Lord of the Rings where we can not change it. But was only to amphasis what I said before.
I realy quoted that passages because it shows the key argument why this change is unnessesary: 'the form always used in histories and legends' What we work on equaly if we allowed it an feign existance in Middle-earth or not, is such a 'historie or legend'. Therefore (at least in my view) it would even be possible to use the phrase 'the House of Hador' to describe a member of the leading family of the second clan that was born befor Hador.

But on that special cases of AFA-14 and AFA-15 I am willing to accept a change. What about 'from the People of Marach'? That phrase is used already at the begining of the Athrabeth, so it is a bit less specific since it is not restriced to the leading family to which Adanel belonged.

Actually looking back, in the Tale of Adanel, the introduction stresses the fact that she says "House of Hador" and uses this to say that it is a Numenorean tradition. I think Hador is then essential to the reading, and should not be changed to Marach.

Sorry for the triple post, but should we also include the Converse of Manwe and Eru? It is bundled with the Athrabeth texts, and concerns the nature of death. If we do include it, I would propose these changes:

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Eru answered: 'Let the houseless be re-housed!'
Manwë asked: 'How shall this be done?'
Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. {Or let} [Let] the naked fëa be re-born {as a child}.'

Tolkien abandoned the idea of rebirth in the children, so this should be removed.

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Eru said: 'I give you authority. The skills ye have already, if ye will take heed. Look and ye will ﬁnd that each spirit of My Children retaineth in itself the full imprint and memory of its former house and in its nakedness it is open to you, so that ye may clearly perceive all that is in it. After this imprint ye may make for it again such a house in all particulars as it had ere, evil befell it. Thus ye may send it back to the lands of the living. <Reincarnation of Elves (RE) The re-housed fëa will normally remain in Aman.> [But] those whom ye judge fit to be <RE transported back to Middle-earth>, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me, and I will consider them.’
{Then Manwë asked further: 'O Ilúvatar, hast Thou not spoken also of re-birth? Is that too within our power and authority?'
Eru answered: 'It shall be within your authority, but it is not in your power. Those whom ye judge ﬁt to be re-born, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me; and I will consider them.'}

I took the relevant lines from the problematic concluding lines, and inserted them into the final judgement of Eru, just to make it line up with the Glorfindel essay and the later ideas of Elvish rebirth.

This was intended to be put here, as I stated, since it is bundled with the texts of the Athrabeth, and is in relation to Finrod and Andreth discussing the idea of death and its comparison between the two races. I think that you are right, however, and that it should be included in the Finwe and Miriel material.