No idea what you are talking about, this thread is about ff'ing, you cannot officiate freedom of speech unless you are a certified rhetorician. What dept at macys do you officiate at, the historical revisionism book section?

We solved the original problem a long time ago...What you can't do as a receiver is think that you can officiate foot faults as if they were line calls, which is an all too widespread view.

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I'm starting to think that you (1) have problems with reading comprehension, or (2) would rather continue to perpetuate this lie in the face of facts. The US High School Tennis Association clearly states the following:

""A player may warn his opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the play may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player's personal honor system."

Every other source explicitly states that foot faulting is a fault and is cheating, and should be evaluated as part of your personal honor system. Since you keep insisting that it's still okay, as long as you don't get caught by an official, I'll just assume you are a person of suspect morals and not someone that people should play tennis with...because you're likely to be hooking line calls as well.

im late to the party on this one...but have a legit rules question...what do you do when you have a person who basically can only serve by way of foot fault? Every single time...what sort of position are you in playing wise or points wise?

I play in a rec league and literally, every single player I have played thus far for a few months, FOOT FAULTS. Im not sure whether these guys were not instructed on how to serve, whether they know they are doing it, or, whether they remotely care.

But, its absolutely rediculous. People crossing over the center T, Hitting from the doubles alley, planting sometimes what lokos like a full foot in front of the baseline. I dont want to be 'that guy' complaining about a footfault - but its REAL bad lol.

What to do? its a medium sized league and peolpe know everyone, but its hard to concentrate on a return when the dude is hitting from the right or left of the T on each side and the ball is coming at me from the same side of the court lol. Thankfully, its not a situation where im getting beat and it looks like im trying to mess with the opponent, but its still awful.

ive never seen anything like it...and, ive never tried to do it. Frankly, its laughable at how bad some of them are, but also, is it a competitive advantage? I beat these guys, but its something ive never dealt with before during competitve college or USTA stuff.

As for foot faults - I was called on one in a match by a USTA ref. It was the best thing that could have happened at the time. It made me focus on my form, and my serve improved - won the match.

On the rec level, my opinion is that if it's evident I would give my opponent a courteous reminder that they are doing it. If it persists, then a second reminder, with the promise to penalize if they continue. Rules are rules, after all.

Back when I was playing competitive tennis, being "that guy" was actually the weekend hacks that would habitually and flagrantly foot fault.

I think I now know what the actual divide here is. Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here.

I guess you can continue to enjoy foot faulting in your recreational 3.0-4.0 league. But if you ever think you want to play at a higher level, then you really need to reconsider your FF tendencies.

Many of us know with 100% certainty that we aren't going to play "college and beyond" so what the hell is the point of getting worked up about footfaulting? I am out to play tennis so when I am playing I am going to win by returning serve- not by watching my opponent's feet and hoping he touches the line.

I'm starting to think that you (1) have problems with reading comprehension, or (2) would rather continue to perpetuate this lie in the face of facts. The US High School Tennis Association clearly states the following:

""A player may warn his opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the play may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player's personal honor system."

Every other source explicitly states that foot faulting is a fault and is cheating, and should be evaluated as part of your personal honor system. Since you keep insisting that it's still okay, as long as you don't get caught by an official, I'll just assume you are a person of suspect morals and not someone that people should play tennis with...because you're likely to be hooking line calls as well.

As for foot faults - I was called on one in a match by a USTA ref. It was the best thing that could have happened at the time. It made me focus on my form, and my serve improved - won the match.

On the rec level, my opinion is that if it's evident I would give my opponent a courteous reminder that they are doing it. If it persists, then a second reminder, with the promise to penalize if they continue. Rules are rules, after all.

im late to the party on this one...but have a legit rules question...what do you do when you have a person who basically can only serve by way of foot fault? Every single time...what sort of position are you in playing wise or points wise?

I play in a rec league and literally, every single player I have played thus far for a few months, FOOT FAULTS. Im not sure whether these guys were not instructed on how to serve, whether they know they are doing it, or, whether they remotely care.

But, its absolutely rediculous. People crossing over the center T, Hitting from the doubles alley, planting sometimes what lokos like a full foot in front of the baseline. I dont want to be 'that guy' complaining about a footfault - but its REAL bad lol.

What to do? its a medium sized league and peolpe know everyone, but its hard to concentrate on a return when the dude is hitting from the right or left of the T on each side and the ball is coming at me from the same side of the court lol. Thankfully, its not a situation where im getting beat and it looks like im trying to mess with the opponent, but its still awful.

Many of us know with 100% certainty that we aren't going to play "college and beyond" so what the hell is the point of getting worked up about footfaulting? I am out to play tennis so when I am playing I am going to win by returning serve- not by watching my opponent's feet and hoping he touches the line.

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I can care less if you want to hit tennis balls against your garage door or serve from the net. But you are in the "Competitive Tennis Talk > Adult League & Tournament Talk" part of Talk Tennis, where ostensibly people are playing tennis competitively.

Talk to the Admins about creating a forum for "Recreational Tennis & I Like to Make Up My Own Rules". You and Bartleby can make up threads for tennis games akin to a game of HORSE on the basketball court.

I've already discussed this, but the reality is that other associations state quite baldly the fact that they don't like receivers officiating imaginary lines and refuse to give the receiver that right.

Many of us know with 100% certainty that we aren't going to play "college and beyond" so what the hell is the point of getting worked up about footfaulting? I am out to play tennis so when I am playing I am going to win by returning serve- not by watching my opponent's feet and hoping he touches the line.

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It is about the integrity of the game, not the level at which it is played.

Suppose you are playing a man who unfortunately has Alzheimers. He cannot remember the score from point to point and even if you put up the score on the net post, he forgets to look at it.

Is it OK to cheat and always make the score favorable to yourself? After all, he cannot reliably argue with you even if he suspects you are cheating. Since he cannot prove it because his memory is medically certified as unreliable, it is OK to cheat, correct?

Australia and the USA, apparently two countries without a common language.

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I actually think questioning the definition flagrant, especially in an unofficiated match, has some merit.

I totally agree with all of you who say that FF is breaking the rules. But in a match with no one watching the line how can someone possibly call a foot fault that is an inch onto the baseline? How can a returner who is supposed to be watching the ball make a determination of such a minute margin. Without an official I would say that he can't. Even a net man would have trouble seeing such a small misstep.

This brings us to the definition of flagrant. I think that after all other avenues have been exhausted that an opponent can only call a foot fault if it is so obvious that there cannot be any question that it was anything other than a foot fault.

This all being said, my question is what is the smallest margin that any of you have seen being called in an unofficiated match?

I myself, have seen, in a high school match, someone claiming to be able to see 2 inches of footfault. I personally thought this was crap.

I totally agree with all of you who say that FF is breaking the rules. But in a match with no one watching the line how can someone possibly call a foot fault that is an inch onto the baseline? How can a returner who is supposed to be watching the ball make a determination of such a minute margin. Without an official I would say that he can't. Even a net man would have trouble seeing such a small misstep.

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Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

Otherwise I agree with you that it should be obvious. When I played HS tennis it was a rare occasion that a foot fault was called, but there was never an issue with the opposing player. They knew they dragged their feet into the court. Everyone was conscientious about it, just as people don't touch the net while the ball is in play, or catch the ball before it bounces out.

I now play in a league with about 30 guys. I've not encountered anyone that "flagrantly" disregards this rule. Everybody tries to stay behind the line and thus no foot faults have been called in my experience. It's really that easy.

I can care less if you want to hit tennis balls against your garage door or serve from the net. But you are in the "Competitive Tennis Talk > Adult League & Tournament Talk" part of Talk Tennis, where ostensibly people are playing tennis competitively.

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You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

I was being tongue in cheek. It's the relentlessness of his remarks through these pages and failure to consider the root issue of why FF is wrong, instead of insisting that it can't be enforced.

Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

There is a difference between the two things here. That is focus. As a returner you're not focused, at least you're not supposed to be, on an inch or two of foot fault.

The "hooking" example is a prime reason why you cannot call a foot fault unless it's "flagrant" or extremely obvious. There are linesmen whose job it is to stare and the line and miss calls. That makes me thinks its even more impossible for someone standing at the opposite end of the court to call a foot fault that occurred by an inch or two.

Acceptance has to be a part of non officiated tennis. There are going to be a lot more incorrect calls than if there was an official around. I think this is why the definition of flagrant is important when it comes to this rule.

You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

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This is what I wrote:

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

If you don't want to lose the point without the other person having to return your serve, then just don't step on or over the line while you serve. Simple, right?

If you are waiting to see the ball that the receiver hits back to you you are in a better position to assess the accuracy of hs call than you are with foot faults as you are supposed to be looking at the ball leave the hand, reach its maximum height. move forward and hit the ball.

If the ball is going to bounce close to a line everyone is looking for the bounce. A server can only know for sure that he starts from behind the line. A receiver is looking to receive. So no one is looking at the line on a ff.

A foot fault does not lose a point, but a bad line call does and the only respite you get from bad line calls is to call an official?

Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

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Having seen plenty of college matches I totally agree. This level and beyond you will not be getting away with FFing. I've seen some chair umps who must have super eyes calling foot faults that are just barely touching the line.

If people have had insufficient training then their non-compliance with the FF rule is a deficiency that can only be rectificed by further training, so play at a level where everyone is sufficiently trained and you won't get flagrant ff.

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

If you don't want to lose the point without the other person having to return your serve, then just don't step on or over the line while you serve. Simple, right?

A receiver is looking to receive. So no one is looking at the line on a ff.

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Right, this is why in reality when a FF is called during the matches I've seen without an official, it was in fact pretty flagrant. The server was either already stepping on the line (obviously) before starting the serve or if they drag their foot into the court during the serve. Otherwise everybody was focused on the return.

If people have had insufficient training then their non-compliance with the FF rule is a deficiency that can only be rectificed by further training, so play at a level where everyone is sufficiently trained and you won't get flagrant ff.

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I agree with this Bartelby. But I believe the motivation comes with losing points from being called for foot faulting. Without enforcement, people lack the impetus and drive to change and improve.

I played a doubles match in a league in which one of our opponents was flagrantly foot faulting on every serve. According to the rules, we informed him and he continued to serve with one foot totally inside the court (by at least a foot) and the other heel on the line. We once again informed him that he was foot faulting. His response was "you can't call that because it's on our side of the court" (sound familiar?).

Before his next service game, we brought out a league official as indicated by the rules. His response was to claim a time violation on us! The official informed him that this was not the case and stayed to watch his serve. His first serve was so flagrant of a foot fault that he was called on it before he even struck the ball. Second serve ... netted. The official continued to watch as he struggled to serve without foot faulting and lost the game.

On my first serve of the next game, he called a foot fault on me, even though I started well behind the line and did not even come close to the line. He didn't even attempt to return the serve.

The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

At the end of the match, he refused to shake hands (his partner did, which drew his ire as well). He was proclaiming to anyone that would listen that we won the match via gamesmanship, not our skills.

I know I followed the rules, and don't consider it gamesmanship to insist that both teams play by the same rules.

I played a doubles match in a league in which one of our opponents was flagrantly foot faulting on every serve. According to the rules, we informed him and he continued to serve with one foot totally inside the court (by at least a foot) and the other heal on the line. We once again informed him that he was foot faulting. His response was "you can't call that because it's on our side of the court" (sound familiar?).

Before his next service game, we brought out a league official as indicated by the rules. His response was to claim a time violation on us! The official informed him that this was not the case and stayed to watch his serve. His first serve was so flagrant of a foot fault that he was called on it before he even struck the ball. Second serve ... netted. The official continued to watch as he struggled to serve without foot faulting and lost the game.

On my first serve of the next game, he called a foot fault on me, even though I started well behind the line and did not even come close to the line. He didn't even attempt to return the serve.

The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

At the end of the match, he refused to shake hands (his partner did, which drew his ire as well). He was proclaiming to anyone that would listen that we won the match via gamesmanship, not our skills.

I know I followed the rules, and don't consider it gamesmanship to insist that both teams play by the same rules.

That's the problem with non-officiated tennis; all the observers are partisan.

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That's where that honor/honour business comes in, the code/rules require all players help with the calls--even those on the OTHER SIDE OF THE NET! This goes contrary to Barltby's assertion that you can't call things on the other side of the net according to some obscure tennis association on the other side of the equater where the bath water goes down the drain in the opposite direction.

Often the player who hits the ball down the line has a better view of whether it was in or out or on the line, then his opponent who was not doing such a great job of covering that DTL shot. This is demonstrated by the better view of the serve to the tee that the server has although in rec play recievers aren't aware of this fact and never ask the server how he saw that serve.

I've often called a point against myself because I had a better view of it--and in this day and age of moral relativism its probably seen as rather strange by the opposition--but those are the rules in unofficiated matches. And that occurs on rare occasions in OFFICIATED matches by PROS even on tv who concede a point to opponents when even the officials didn't see it right.

Sports don't make character they reveal it. When I play against recx players and there's a pause in deciding a call DTL that I clearly had a better angle to view, I know not to expect too much in the honor/honour department from them or in the brains department either. I'll be kiddingly saying: "Ask me, ask me!", and they never do.

They're the same ones who don't bring a new can of balls to the match, don't want to warm-up properly, don't chat on the 90 second changeovers, don't stick around to have a beer afterwards and watch some real tennis on the tv in the players lounge--the're off to a tee time, or the all you can eat buffet.

So, if the rules say it's up to all PLAYERS to HELP with the calls, that allows for calling foot faults on opponents after due warning. FLAGRANT is in the eye of the beholder--some players HAVE better vision then others--this is proven to me everytime I play rec--opponents and partners make bad calls for and against themselves (mostly for though). This is a product of poor vision/VISION, whether due to poor eyesight or poor mental VISION, as a by-product of their blurry world view--which came first the chicken or the egg?

Barltby is going to the mat with this and will say anything at this point to symantically obfuscate the issue. Maybe he does't work at macys as his red star icon is symbolic of. I'm beginning to think he is a publicly paid defense attorney--only one of those could come up with the verbal gymnastics from an alternative universe to claim that black is white--how do you spell "is"?

...The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

...Foot faulting does matter, because it is against the rules!

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Your incident reminds me of a similar one I observed at playoffs on the court next door to me. The perp became irate at the official, argued with him, told him ff'ing was only a "technical" vilolation (he is an attorney BTW) and proceded to blow the match and further playoff hopes for his teammates.

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

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I suppose the difference is that I realize that under the 5.0 level we are all mediocre tennis players who are playing tennis recreationally. For all of us it is a hobby, even the players who once played "college and beyond". If someone is playing in college then absolutely they should care about footfaults. If someone is playing satellites then absolutely care about footfaults. If someone is playing a cash tournament same thing. But for me in USTA you just focus on returning serve- and if at some point there is a roving umpire then they can call my opponent for a footfault for me.

Once again it comes down to whether you would rather win the point by cracking a return or whether you would rather win the point by watching the server's feet and hoping that they touch the line. I take time to play league tennis because I want to play tennis so I'm just going to go ahead and return the serve. If you instead enjoy hoping someone's foot touches the line then by all means go for it- I'm just glad you aren't on my team.

That's where that honor/honour business comes in, the code/rules require all players help with the calls--even those on the OTHER SIDE OF THE NET! This goes contrary to Barltby's assertion that you can't call things on the other side of the net according to some obscure tennis association on the other side of the equater where the bath water goes down the drain in the opposite direction.

Often the player who hits the ball down the line has a better view of whether it was in or out or on the line, then his opponent who was not doing such a great job of covering that DTL shot. This is demonstrated by the better view of the serve to the tee that the server has although in rec play recievers aren't aware of this fact and never ask the server how he saw that serve.

I've often called a point against myself because I had a better view of it--and in this day and age of moral relativism its probably seen as rather strange by the opposition--but those are the rules in unofficiated matches. And that occurs on rare occasions in OFFICIATED matches by PROS even on tv who concede a point to opponents when even the officials didn't see it right.

Sports don't make character they reveal it. When I play against recx players and there's a pause in deciding a call DTL that I clearly had a better angle to view, I know not to expect too much in the honor/honour department from them or in the brains department either. I'll be kiddingly saying: "Ask me, ask me!", and they never do.

They're the same ones who don't bring a new can of balls to the match, don't want to warm-up properly, don't chat on the 90 second changeovers, don't stick around to have a beer afterwards and watch some real tennis on the tv in the players lounge--the're off to a tee time, or the all you can eat buffet.

So, if the rules say it's up to all PLAYERS to HELP with the calls, that allows for calling foot faults on opponents after due warning. FLAGRANT is in the eye of the beholder--some players HAVE better vision then others--this is proven to me everytime I play rec--opponents and partners make bad calls for and against themselves (mostly for though). This is a product of poor vision/VISION, whether due to poor eyesight or poor mental VISION, as a by-product of their blurry world view--which came first the chicken or the egg?

Barltby is going to the mat with this and will say anything at this point to symantically obfuscate the issue. Maybe he does't work at macys as his red star icon is symbolic of. I'm beginning to think he is a publicly paid defense attorney--only one of those could come up with the verbal gymnastics from an alternative universe to claim that black is white--how do you spell "is"?

Your incident reminds me of a similar one I observed at playoffs on the court next door to me. The perp became irate at the official, argued with him, told him ff'ing was only a "technical" vilolation (he is an attorney BTW) and proceded to blow the match and further playoff hopes for his teammates.

Even the word 'perp' demonstrates your infantile fascination at looking at people as if they were characters from an American cop show.

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"SHOULD" and SHALL are not the same.

What are those "good reasons"?

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madelyn Murray O'Hair.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.

Even the word 'perp' demonstrates your infantile fascination at looking at people as if they were characters from an American cop show.

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"SHOULD" and SHALL are not the same.

What are those "good reasons"?

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madalyn Murray O'hare.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madalyn Murray O'hare.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.