does that make it a dog? because I didn't hear people whine and complain about how terrible of a car the F60 was before Massa's accident, interestingly enough

No? I guess people was just trying to be nice then, because it was rather obvious that the car was a huge failure already after the first qualifying. Most suspected it already after the first test, but it was not until the first qualification it became clear Ferrari was not sandbagging.

No? I guess people was just trying to be nice then, because it was rather obvious that the car was a huge failure already after the first qualifying. Most suspected it already after the first test, but it was not until the first qualification it became clear Ferrari was not sandbagging.

But wasn't near the top 3, and if you're Ferrari, anything not in contention for a race win is a return to the old, shameful day pre-Schumacher. The car was the worst they'd done in over a decade, in comparison to the competition, and the fact that Felipe and Kimi were professional enough not to bluntly trash the car in public doesn't change the hard evidence.

It doesn't matter if the car is in top or middle. The key is driveability. Some can be faster and still harder to drive than others which are slower. In this situation, F60 was worse than others and less driveable. The fact.

And Kimi Raikkonen said that he liked how the car handled earlier in the year, what happened?

Nothing happened. He liked how it behaved, but when they compared themselves to the others it turned out they lacked grip and downforce. It was new rules, until you compare to other cars you can not say how good it is. About lacking traction - that is relative, not an absolute. You have never optimum traction and the traction of even a bad F1 car is damn good, but if you have less than your competitors you have too little.

Nothing happened. He liked how it behaved, but when they compared themselves to the others it turned out they lacked grip and downforce. It was new rules, until you compare to other cars you can not say how good it is. About lacking traction - that is relative, not an absolute. You have never optimum traction and the traction of even a bad F1 car is damn good, but if you have less than your competitors you have too little.

but there is always a possibility of driver A calling car A a bad car compared to car B which is being driven by driver B who says that the car is even worse when in reality it is worse and driver A's comaprison is wrong as driver A has no experience in driving car B

There's no reason anyone should buy your pathetic attempts to accuse someone of lying. From a single line you've managed to conclude a whole agenda and invent levels of hidden meaning in Raikkonen's words that go deeper than your own bitterness. If you think this is unreasonable, PLEASE point out the exact sentence in which he even compares the F60 to other cars. Where does it say "My car's traction deficiency is fact and not my own opinion". I can wait, no problems.

Forgive me, logic and reason tends to screw up the fantasies of a certain couple of Raikkonen fans. I feel like I've been in this situation before, deja vu?

There's no reason anyone should buy your pathetic attempts to accuse someone of lying. F If you think this is unreasonable, PLEASE point out the exact sentence in which he even compares the F60 to other cars. Where does it say "My car's traction deficiency is fact and not my own opinion". I can wait, no problems. wave.gif

Did I call him a liar?

What bitterness? I'll delete the off topic bits.

Well you can say a car lacks grip but if you have no standard to refer to, that could mean anything. Do you get it now?

but there is always a possibility of driver A calling car A a bad car compared to car B which is being driven by driver B who says that the car is even worse when in reality it is worse and driver A's comaprison is wrong as driver A has no experience in driving car B

I think you have lost yourself there. First of all, Kimi is a WDC and Massa a WDC runner up, they know their own performance relative people like Button and Vettel pretty well. From that knowledge, they can pretty accurately say if their car is good or bad. But at this point maybe you would like to make a small recap of your arguments and what you argue for because I think more posters than I have serious problems to attach your comments into a context.

I think you have lost yourself there. First of all, Kimi is a WDC and Massa a WDC runner up, they know their own performance relative people like Button and Vettel pretty well. From that knowledge, they can pretty accurately say if their car is good or bad. But at this point maybe you would like to make a small recap of your arguments and what you argue for because I think more posters than I have serious problems to attach your comments into a context.

Sorry but status doesn't give anything in terms of actual knowledge of the unknown. That has been proven far too many times in the past.

domenicalli isn't even a f1 driver raikkonen has not driven any other 2009 car you're getting mad for no reason at all, you can't expect me to buy things so cheaply, i am not like that you troll.

Simple question, why do you think the manufactors keep redesigning the cars every winter (even when there´s no change in regulations)?Is it because they are chasing that perfect handling characteristics, or is it because they want to build the fastest car?

Simple question, why do you think the manufactors keep redesigning the cars every winter (even when there´s no change in regulations)?Is it because they are chasing that perfect handling characteristics, or is it because they want to build the fastest car?

Of course that comment is a diss towards Fisichella, but it's well done and deserved, so nothing wrong with that.

Concerning the F60 dispute:
It might be useful to reduce the emotions a bit and to bring in some substance.
For example, did Fisichella ever compare the behaviour of the F60 with the Force India he used to drive before?

Concerning the F60 dispute:It might be useful to reduce the emotions a bit and to bring in some substance.For example, did Fisichella ever compare the behaviour of the F60 with the Force India he used to drive before?

Only thing I heard was that he said it was very nervous compared to the Force India.

Sorry but status doesn't give anything in terms of actual knowledge of the unknown. That has been proven far too many times in the past.

But that is the thing. A pro can detect a lot of things that an amateur does not. Look at golf, the expert commentator can usually say directly if something went wrong with a swing while it for the normal viewer looks like any other swing. In ski jump they know if the jump is good or not the same moment the skis leave the ground. On top of that, there is a huge difference driving a meter beside, behind or in front of someone than to watch it on TV. We do not see if Kimi can brake a meter later or have to brake a meter earlier, but those on the track does. But you are partly right about if a car is "harder" or "easier" to drive, that they can hardly see, they just see how it performs. A car that is hard for some might feel easy too others. It has not much to do with their absolute skill but a lot to do with their preferences and prior experiences. Every driver set the car up to their liking, there is no optimum setup, but some cars can not be set up in a way the driver wants it.A perfect car can be driven fast by anyone, but the perfect car does not exist and it never did.

In this German interview he says much more. Basically he blames the lack of testing and the totally different characteristics of a kers car for his troubles at Ferrari. Not a nervous car, not a lack of grip, but a lack of confidence for the car which was caused by a lack of time for him to adapt.And he mentions that other kers drivers had a hard time as well, early in the season when they weren't used to it yet.

I just come to conclusions based on observations and analysis just as all of us do and i am fully aware that I could be wrong in the conclusions i have come to

But you know something's wrong when the vast majority of your conclusions seemed to go against the values you were preaching in this thread. What happened to the 'lack of standards' making Kimi's talk of relative grip meaningless. They apply to everyone but you? Yet another case of forumers inventing 'on the spot' BS values to fit their agenda, not to mention skewing quotes way out of proportion. Pathetic.

Not a nervous car, not a lack of grip, but a lack of confidence for the car which was caused by a lack of time for him to adapt.

That is another interview. But the lack of confidence he mentioned in the one I read, he had no confidence in the car because it was very nervous. Badoer said something similar.Usually you have confidence in a car that is predictable, so if the car was not nervous, what do you suggest made him feel uncomfortable with it?

That is another interview. But the lack of confidence he mentioned in the one I read, he had no confidence in the car because it was very nervous. Badoer said something similar.Usually you have confidence in a car that is predictable, so if the car was not nervous, what do you suggest made him feel uncomfortable with it?

I suggest nothing because I did not drive the F60 and the Force India, and I am not interested into making unfounded speculations; I strictly stick to what Fisichella said.

@craftwerk
I see you don't understand.
He meant handling suited him more than F2008. When he steers it does what he wanted unlike F2008.
But he also said it was hard to drive. I see you don't know what handling means. The proof are people from paddock. And one of the biggest is Fisichella.

Whilst its a great quote from Kimi and something Id like to see more of between F1 drivers just for shits and giggles I do think its a bit of a parting shot at Ferraris decision to hire him. Not that Fisis presence was bad for Kimi just that Kimi is a bit bitter maybe hes found himself pushed out of the team.

In this German interview he says much more. Basically he blames the lack of testing and the totally different characteristics of a kers car for his troubles at Ferrari. Not a nervous car, not a lack of grip, but a lack of confidence for the car which was caused by a lack of time for him to adapt.And he mentions that other kers drivers had a hard time as well, early in the season when they weren't used to it yet.

But you know something's wrong when the vast majority of your conclusions seemed to go against the values you were preaching in this thread. What happened to the 'lack of standards' making Kimi's talk of relative grip meaningless. They apply to everyone but you? Yet another case of forumers inventing 'on the spot' BS values to fit their agenda, not to mention skewing quotes way out of proportion. Pathetic.

i find it pathetic that you came to such a conclusion, you're the one who's getting confused and flustered over nothing

@craftwerkI see you don't understand.He meant handling suited him more than F2008. When he steers it does what he wanted unlike F2008.But he also said it was hard to drive. I see you don't know what handling means. The proof are people from paddock. And one of the biggest is Fisichella.

and that is what i've been talking about, handling, it handled better than last year's car so it is certainly not worthy of being called a pig is it?

let's not forget that fisichella has had no where near the amount of experience in the car as raikkonen, and massa was not that far off raikkonen's pace before his accident either

No doubt, but initially they stated it would require a new transmission and the "fix" would not come until the middle of the summer and then it just never came. Resources devoted to KERS probably didn't help either but I was struck at how un-Ferrari like the teams attitude was.

The downside to a lack of testing is you better get it right the first time.

Kim:

I think the fact that they simply gave up on the 2009 season (like they did before in 1991 and 1980) had to do a lot with the fact that Ross Brawn showed them at Honda what advantage it could have to focus on the next year.

Let´s hope Ferrari don´t do a BMW next year....

Regarding Kimi: I just love the guy, his speed and his outspokenness. Here´s to the hope he will race with Red Bull from 2011 - 2013!!!

Thats a very real possibility. It will all depend on how competitive he feels in WRC, but he has all the time in the world to dedicate to WRC still even if he returned(to F1) for two seasons for another shot at the title.