They are both pretty good looking kids. Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

Rincewind53:Good for them. They're an adorable couple.Sgygus: FloydA: it's probably completely made up

Line of hair descending from navel of the formerly-female young man? Unlikely.

Testosterone does some pretty incredible things to the body:[thetfs.ca image 407x305]That's the same person, pre-gender transition and post-gender transition. Though he kept the bottom parts.

Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?

HotWingAgenda:Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?

If a person identifies as a man, let him. There's no clear line. Breasts or lack thereof has nothing to do with gender. Keira Knightley is flat as a board, but no one says she's not a woman.

Gender is self-identifying. Buck Angel says he always identified as a man. He underwent hormone therapy, had his breasts removed, and had pectoral implants, and yet that isn't what "changed" him from a woman to a man. That just reinforced it.

Rincewind53:HotWingAgenda: Where is the line drawn then? Many older women must take testosterone for normal health reasons, but their gender is not referred to as male because of it. Many women diagnosed with breast cancer must have mastectomies, but they are still women. Does the transition occur the moment someone decides to change?

If a person identifies as a man, let him. There's no clear line. Breasts or lack thereof has nothing to do with gender. Keira Knightley is flat as a board, but no one says she's not a woman.

Gender is self-identifying. Buck Angel says he always identified as a man. He underwent hormone therapy, had his breasts removed, and had pectoral implants, and yet that isn't what "changed" him from a woman to a man. That just reinforced it.

So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

HotWingAgenda:So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

HotWingAgenda:So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

There's a difference between gender and sex. At a chromosomal level we're all stuck with the sex we're born with, that doesn't mean we can't identify more strongly with the different gender. Most of us are lucky enough to have gender and sex match up, for some people they're different.

Anyhow, it's not a big deal for you to refer to people as the gender they identify as rather than as the sex they were born, is it? Even if you personally can't understand why someone would want to make the transition it's not like it somehow takes away from your masculinity/femininity, any more than gay people getting married somehow undermines your straight marriage.

Rincewind53:HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'. Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less. And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it. I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod. But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense. This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

xellas84:Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'. Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less. And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it. I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod. But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense. This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

People with gender dysphoria disorder who want to change sex go to plastic surgeons and they cut off perfectly normal, functioning body parts to match their delusion. People with body integrity identity disorder who think just as strongly they should be amputees or even paraplegics in wheelchairs go to orthopedic surgeons and they refuse to mutilate the patients to feed that delusion.

FloydA:They are both pretty good looking kids. Of course, since this story is in the Sun, it's probably completely made up and the two teens are Ukrainians or Bulgarians or something, and the Sun just stole the picture from their Facebook and made up the story to sell papers to their barely literate audience who only buy the paper to look at the tits on Page 3.

But other than that, it's a nice story.

This story has been around before, in slightly different form.

How did the breast removal surgery work, though? Pretty impressive that he has no scars. Hmmm. *Becomes dubious*

doofusgumby:xellas84: Rincewind53: HotWingAgenda: So if the answer is, "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," then how is each gender defined? What is the objective difference between a man and a woman? If we insist on using two discrete polar terms, there must be some specific physical demarcation that defines them.

I wouldn't say "A person's gender changes whenever they say it does," I'd say "A person's gender is what they say it is."

Gender is a social construct. It's not the same thing as what genitalia you were born with, or what your chromosonal make-up is, or what is broadly referred to as "biological sex." What it is to be a "man" or a "woman" differs in every society in the world. Hell, there was a time when women wearing pants were considered to be pretending to be men.

I'm still of the mindset that you have 'biological sex' and then 'mental illness'. Your gender is what your chromosomes say, nothing more, nothing less. And if you disagree... well then you be nuts.

Then again, if that's their choice, I suppose they are entitled to it. I mean, we've got people who choose to get metal shoved through their junk too, it's just yet another expensive body mod. But I don't legitimize it by saying that it's anything but someone who's mildly crazy getting support from people who should be trying to talk them back into sense. This is basically like someone saying they're an alchoholic and having their friends and family hand them 40's instead of getting them proper help.

Welcome to the dustbin of history. Your "mindset" is now one of prejudice and ignorance.

People who feel they are the wrong sex are driven crazy by people like you, usualy in their own family.

Really? I'd think that paying attention to physical reality is kind of important.

These people are the equivalent of someone who's way into Star Trek insisting they're a vulcan and having their ears pointed and refusing to acknowledge that they are human. If that happened, people around them would rightly say "Hey, no you aren't. See, your genetics prove it." Same thing here... they have a mental problem that doesn't line up with physical reality. Someone should be pointing to these people and saying "No, see, you aren't a woman, you were born with a penis, you need to accept that yes, you ARE a male, and that the part of your brain saying otherwise is not normal and you should ignore it."

As posted elsewhere, we have disorders in the mind that make people insist that they are an amputee and their limbs aren't supposed to be there. Surgeons won't remove those offending limbs now will they? This is a form of mental illness. A mild one to be certain, and these people are no danger to themselves or others. Hell they have a right to request whatever mods they want to their own bodies, but let's not treat it as anything but a disorder. Remember, the definition of disorder is "a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions", and having your brain insist that your body is the wrong gender is definitely a disruption in mental health.

As I grew up I always felt like something wasn't right with me. I seemed fit and strong and athletically gifted so I was placed into lots of sports programs but it never felt "right" and was always "forced". Then one day I realized I was a messed up lazy fark born in the wrong body. Luckily my parents were supportive and helped me fund my change from an athlete to an off balance and alcoholic slob. Thanksh dad! (hic!)