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Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

Originally Posted by M3J

Those were opinions though, and what Hiruzen and Anko said about Minato doesn't negate Iruka's statement that Hiruzen was the strongest, since we know Hiruzen's old age was the main reason why he feared he couldn't stop Orochimaru. Orochimaru himself said he thought Hiruzen would have been able to kill him ten years prior to their final fight.

Iruka also used something like "It is said that", as far as I could remember.
Never mind. What I tried to say here is what characters could think or state could be negated through the plot over the time. It wasn't Anko's statement that negated it, but it was rather the arrival of Madara and the continuously retconned skill level of Hashirama negated it. Anko's statement fearing Hiruzen's age were somehow negated by Hiruzen himself, who stopped Orochimaru's invasion move. I can't see why it couldn't be the same with Iruka or someone else.

Say, if Kishimoto decides to give Hiruzen a praise for the final time and reveals something big, big enough that could even stop Madara, Madara's words of only Hashirama being able to stop him would also be negated, right?
I believe such things can happen at the mangaka's will.

Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

Okay. But...he said that Hashirama is above them. So it really doesn't matter if he was defeated or not.

It does in proving that one doesn't need to be stronger to defeat another. Same as I pointed out before, with Hanzou and KinGin brothers being defeated by ninjas clearly weaker then them.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

How was the entire series built upon that anyway ? How ? And we don't have their word confirming anything. They didn't say " The Rinnegan is our goal in life".

Um, the Rikudou Sennin and his legacy is not only the source of the entire series, but the source of the current situation. Both the main villains and heroes powers originated from it. Except their words do confirm wanting it, to learn everything and to discover the Rikudou Sennin's secrets. There's literally no other conclusion you can make from their words.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Not a first source really, just came across it a while back and didn't bother checking if it was legit or not.

That would make it the first source then, if it was the sole source.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

You think those "dozens" are mistakes, when they are not. It wasn't stated. It's just a technique classified as Ninjutsu\Taijutsu where ever the Mistake is. Using weapons alone was never stated. Applying chakra into the weapon, is also part of the technique along with extending the range, dealing stronger blows.

They are canonically proven as mistakes, as mentioned countless times before. i.e. Chidori being stated as pure chakra and Amaterasu burning as hot as the sun. You keep claiming weapons along are never mentioned, despite the entries outright stating that creating the weapons were the whole technique.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

My bad, I didn't know you provided to the Five or six nature releases. Back to topic, it was stated there is 5 in the databook. But 6 where mentioned in the Manga twice, which is it ?

Um, no. Six was not mentioned in the series twice. It was mentioned once, whereas there being the five main natures was mentioned several times in both the series and databooks.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Yes but the point is, he can't use Ninjutsu. Orochimaru is always spitting out snakes without hand signs, along with many other weird techniques, like here and here. Suigetsu meant that he can't use Ninjutsu which is why he mentioned his arms being sealed by the DDS.

Except he has been shown using ninjutsu, thereby negating that argument. Not to mention the lost of his arms was outright shown a consequence to the sealing. Unlike examples that involve his modified body, we're specifically talking about a technique that was shown requiring handsigns and arms to use. And Orochimaru wasn't always employing snakes without handsigns. He didn't do so in the Forest of Death. Same with summoning the gates. And Suigetsu says nothing about not using ninjutsu. He solely mentions the lack of arm usage, which was proven false.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

As I said, you're trying to win this by dragging it. Orochimaru's wasn't proven to have suffered no effect, while otherwise was stated. So I'm the one who already won. And again, you have no evidence of the Kyuubi being back to normal. And one last time, was it ever said that either Orochimaru or the Kyuubi regained their lost parts ? If so, bring me a direct statement similar to this and this. If I don't see that, then I won.

No I'm not. Orochimaru was proven to gotten over the effects. I've showed him both using his arms and ninjutsus again, whereas you proven nothing to the contrary. And I showed evidence that the Kyuubi was back to normal. I showed you the toads stating that Naruto was gonna take the Kyuubi's full power. You keep bring up the same statement and ignoring that it has no barring upon the unsealed portion. Heck, I even pointed out how Minato being sealed forever didn't affect the part of him left in Naruto nor Orochimaru being sealed within the Totsuka Blade affected his other consciousnesses.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

You simplified an opinion\argument, I simplified a fact. Two different things.

It wasn't an opinion, it was an actual fact. Neither Darui or Mifune are Kage level, yet they defeated opponent stronger then Kages. This is a simple fact.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Okay, I'm gonna walk with you and say that he changed his mind (not really convinced but because the outcome won't change) and made the Yin issue into a regular chakra...Did he get it back ? No. In the end, be it Yin-Yang case or chakra case, he wasn't shown getting it back.

The Kyuubi wouldn't have to "get back' the part sealed to simply regenerate back the portion lost. And that's the point, which you seem to be missing. The sealing wouldn't affect the Kyuubi's natural ability to generate more chakra, as it has shown frequently.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Yeah, this is dragging for too long. Okay, he is bigger than his upper body (still not buying it, but it's the same as above), the building in Suna aren't different (don't even know where you got that). Where was it shown that he got back to his full size ? He was shown shrinking, unless you have place showing him getting back...you know how it is. The toad for the last time meant something different, don't know why you're pretending to not understand.

Yeah, it was shown shrinking to half it's size, which would have made it smaller then the other Bijuus, yet we clearly see it's back to equal size in the current war. And you keep saying that, which it's not true. What "other thing" could full power have meant?

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

So now the plot revolves around the Kyuubi being back at 100% ? Does the plot always goes however you want it ? And how does it revolve around that anyway ?
Now that's a weird question. Do you think Minato would just go kill himself only to seal something that the Kyuubi would regenerate after taking a nap ? And say it's lost forever ?

Um, yeah. The current plot is Madara and Obito attempting to revive the complete Juubi, which requires the whole Kyuubi, and the Alliance attempting to prevent them from doing so by keeping them from taking the Kyuubi, while Naruto has begun to live up to the legacy the Rikudou Sennin left behind for someone reuniting all the Bijuus back together. And yeah, considering his stated plan was to have Naruto master the Kyuubi's power, the only thing he believed was capable of defeating Obito. Especially since he didn't seal half the Kyuubi's chakra because of Naruto, but because that was all he could manage to take within himself. Clearly if he could have taken more, he would have.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Source ?

Itachi, Kakashi, and Tsunade have all been shown running out of chakra and nothing of the like was shown happening to their bodies.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

How do you know it's not because he killed them instantly ?

Um, because he didn't kill them instantly. That's kind of the point, that the fight wasn't fast but slow, with them mostly standing around doing nothing.

Um, the Rikudou Sennin and his legacy is not only the source of the entire series, but the source of the current situation. Both the main villains and heroes powers originated from it. Except their words do confirm wanting it, to learn everything and to discover the Rikudou Sennin's secrets. There's literally no other conclusion you can make from their words.

The whole series does not revolve around that. They want to know learn everything and discover the RS secret, but the Rinnegan is not his secret, at least not the only one. Unless I see a statement they want his secret, then please. Cut it out. If they wanted the Rinnegan they should've went for Nagato instead of Itachi\Sasuke.

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That would make it the first source then, if it was the sole source.

When I say it's not my first source, then it's not. One of them though.

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They are canonically proven as mistakes, as mentioned countless times before. i.e. Chidori being stated as pure chakra and Amaterasu burning as hot as the sun. You keep claiming weapons along are never mentioned, despite the entries outright stating that creating the weapons were the whole technique.

That doesn't prove anything really. Does those "proves" say that the databook is mistaking or if it's negating it directly ? The Chidori was never said to be "pure chakra" and none said that Amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun. It does burn slowly though. Outright stating that creating the weapon is the the whole technique ? Where are you reading ? Fusing the chakra with the weapon and making a different use of it is the Jutsu itself. The weapon use was not mentioned.

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Um, no. Six was not mentioned in the series twice. It was mentioned once, whereas there being the five main natures was mentioned several times in both the series and databooks.

No, it was stated twice. By Jiraya and Yamato. So again, which is it ? By the way, the Kekkie Genkai's are also chakra Natures. Five are mentioned in the Databook as "Basic" only. Yin-Yang and Kekkei Genkais are also chakra natures, but they probably don't fall under the "Basic" category.

About the Orochimaru's hands and the Kyuubi topic. I didn't see the proof I asked for, so I'm just gonna ignore it. Dragging this is useless. There are several, SEVERAL, statements that those two haven't regained what's sealed in the DDS. You don't have any proof saying otherwise. That means everything you said is an assumption. Not trying to anger you, but I won.

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It wasn't an opinion, it was an actual fact. Neither Darui or Mifune are Kage level, yet they defeated opponent stronger then Kages. This is a simple fact.

Did I argue about weaker people not being able to defeat stronger people ? If so, then remind me when.

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The Kyuubi wouldn't have to "get back' the part sealed to simply regenerate back the portion lost. And that's the point, which you seem to be missing. The sealing wouldn't affect the Kyuubi's natural ability to generate more chakra, as it has shown frequently.

Your opinion. Half of him was said to be sealed forever. Is there a similar statement saying otherwise ?

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Yeah, it was shown shrinking to half it's size, which would have made it smaller then the other Bijuus, yet we clearly see it's back to equal size in the current war. And you keep saying that, which it's not true. What "other thing" could full power have meant?

You're assuming that he should be smaller than the other Bijuus. The other thing is, the toad said, the seal was designed so that a tiny bit of the Kyuubi's chakra would leak, but should the seal be opened, it's full chakra would come out. This has nothing to do with how much chakra the Kyuubi has, but how much would leak.

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Um, yeah. The current plot is Madara and Obito attempting to revive the complete Juubi, which requires the whole Kyuubi, and the Alliance attempting to prevent them from doing so by keeping them from taking the Kyuubi, while Naruto has begun to live up to the legacy the Rikudou Sennin left behind for someone reuniting all the Bijuus back together. And yeah, considering his stated plan was to have Naruto master the Kyuubi's power, the only thing he believed was capable of defeating Obito. Especially since he didn't seal half the Kyuubi's chakra because of Naruto, but because that was all he could manage to take within himself. Clearly if he could have taken more, he would have.

Emmm...No. It wasn't stated they need the Kyuubi at full power to summon the Juubi. They summoned him already without the Kyuubi or Hachibi's full power. And your answer is random. What does him killing himself for no reason have to do with Naruto controlling the Kyuubi ? If the chakra would be regenerated immediately then why would he kill himself ? He might have just sealed the Kyuubi's full chakra in Naruto in the first place.

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Itachi, Kakashi, and Tsunade have all been shown running out of chakra and nothing of the like was shown happening to their bodies.

Still doesn't say he used his life force, or that using your life force would make your body age like that. In fact, Itachi according to you was using his life force, he didn't age like that or become skinny.

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Um, because he didn't kill them instantly. That's kind of the point, that the fight wasn't fast but slow, with them mostly standing around doing nothing.

How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

Well have you all been paying attention to all the times Edo Madara's been hit, and it's been a death blow? And all the hype about Madara throughout history has been all this crap about him being the best person on par with Hashirama and what not.

(Edo Tensei revives him I know that, but that's not the point)

He was killed by each of the 5 Kage.
He was killed by Rock Lee in the previous chapter.

This is basically a thread to see how many times we've seen the great Madara, and how many times he's fallen.

Re: How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

IMO, he could probably solo most of the alliance ATM but agian, plot induced stupidity won't allow it. Just look at what he's already done, what Nagato could do. He's basically said he won't use the Final Sussano again because it doesn't seem right...yea no matter how he ends up being defeating it's an asspull people will be talking about for years.

"The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Re: How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

Besides, Madara took some hits on purpose, for example during the meteor technique and when Oonoki "pulverized" him with Jinton.

Stop being right, I might disagree with you on principle alone

On topic, Madara's death was legit one time, that is the combination jutsus of the 5 Kages ( or rather, Oonoki+Tsunade combo, and even then it was because he was being arrogant, standing around with his arms crossed, underestimating the kages ), other times he either screwed around ( meteor ), was impeded by plot ( Lee's kick not being blocked by the fan when it repelled a mini-Bijuudama ) or simply he didn't die to begin with ( clone switch against Tsunade ).

Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

Then Sasuke is > the Kages and sannins, since he has the statements attesting to it too.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

The whole series does not revolve around that. They want to know learn everything and discover the RS secret, but the Rinnegan is not his secret, at least not the only one. Unless I see a statement they want his secret, then please. Cut it out. If they wanted the Rinnegan they should've went for Nagato instead of Itachi\Sasuke.

The series does revolve around that. Without it, there would be no Bijuus, no Akatsuki, no Uchiha/Senju rivalry, no ninjutsu at all. Every single current event started due to Madara's actions of attaining the Rinnegan. And I gave you said statement of that very thing, here.

...Why would they go after a weaken Nagato and have to deal with huge chakra cost instead of grabbing a stronger Uchiha and not having any chakra cost?

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

When I say it's not my first source, then it's not. One of them though.

Since that word was never used in the series, databook, or anime, then clearly there was only a single source you could have gotten it from.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

That doesn't prove anything really. Does those "proves" say that the databook is mistaking or if it's negating it directly ? The Chidori was never said to be "pure chakra" and none said that Amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun. It does burn slowly though. Outright stating that creating the weapon is the the whole technique ? Where are you reading ? Fusing the chakra with the weapon and making a different use of it is the Jutsu itself. The weapon use was not mentioned.

How does it not prove anything when we got direct prove that it's wrong/been reconned? It was said to be nothing but chakra, which was why the chakra being visible was so impressive, and Amateruas's databook entry outright states it burns as hot as the sun. And as mentioned, chakra flow is not an individual technique. Naruto, Sasuke, Kirabi, Itachi, and Kakashi all showed this. And you need better reading comprehension...

"Asuma infuses his brass knuckles - his weapons of choice - with this jutsu and goes into battle"
"For a heavy price in chakra, one obtains the strongest of spears, an item of absolute sturdiness. It is the crystallization of the blood and skill of a clan who'd worked slaughter into its finest art."
"Tsuru attacks, bending and twisting the spinal column like a veritable whip."
"Drawing a Bone Pulse-created blade of bone, and unleashing a disorderly succession of stabs at a blinding speed...!"

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

No, it was stated twice. By Jiraya and Yamato. So again, which is it ? By the way, the Kekkie Genkai's are also chakra Natures. Five are mentioned in the Databook as "Basic" only. Yin-Yang and Kekkei Genkais are also chakra natures, but they probably don't fall under the "Basic" category.

Yamato never mention there being six release, in fact he was the one who made it clear that Yin-Yang was not included with the others. Bloodline limits are based upon a combination of the basic five, which is the point.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

About the Orochimaru's hands and the Kyuubi topic. I didn't see the proof I asked for, so I'm just gonna ignore it. Dragging this is useless. There are several, SEVERAL, statements that those two haven't regained what's sealed in the DDS. You don't have any proof saying otherwise. That means everything you said is an assumption. Not trying to anger you, but I won.

Don't see the prove? Then you're purposely ignoring the proof I gave you. The one statement about Orochimaru was clearly shown false, and there's no a single statement saying the Kyuubi wasn't back to 100%. In fact, I gave you a statement informing us that the Kyuubi had it's full power back. The fact that you're trying to claim to be right while openly ignoring the very evidence you asked for says plenty.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Did I argue about weaker people not being able to defeat stronger people ? If so, then remind me when.

Yeah you did, you're whole argument about Sarutobi supposedly being stronger was built upon that.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Your opinion. Half of him was said to be sealed forever. Is there a similar statement saying otherwise ?

And that has no barring upon the unsealed half. Not a single statement anywhere in the series suggesting the Kyuubi didn't regenerate it back.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

You're assuming that he should be smaller than the other Bijuus. The other thing is, the toad said, the seal was designed so that a tiny bit of the Kyuubi's chakra would leak, but should the seal be opened, it's full chakra would come out. This has nothing to do with how much chakra the Kyuubi has, but how much would leak.

If it's of even size and was cut in half, then logically it would be smaller then the others Bijuus. No, the Toads said that opening the seal would allow Naruto to tap into the Kyuubi's full power, possibly allowing the Kyuubi to be reborn. Nothing about "what would come out" as you;re attempting to claim. Heck, we outright saw that the seal didn't have to be open for the Kyuubi to flood Naruto with it's chakra, as shown during Pain's invasion.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Emmm...No. It wasn't stated they need the Kyuubi at full power to summon the Juubi. They summoned him already without the Kyuubi or Hachibi's full power. And your answer is random. What does him killing himself for no reason have to do with Naruto controlling the Kyuubi ? If the chakra would be regenerated immediately then why would he kill himself ? He might have just sealed the Kyuubi's full chakra in Naruto in the first place.

To summon the complete Juubi, they need the full Hachibi and Kyuubi. The current Juubi isn't complete... My answer isn't random. He outright mentions sealing the complete Kyuubi isn't possible.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

Still doesn't say he used his life force, or that using your life force would make your body age like that. In fact, Itachi according to you was using his life force, he didn't age like that or become skinny.

Life force is the only other source on can draw upon to fuel techniques. And Itachi didn't die from using Susanoo, he died from running out of chakra.

Originally Posted by KingOfNight

And you made it a fact that they weren't at their best ?

I'm not the one who made it a fact, Kishi did by greatly expanding upon what they were truly capable of.

Re: How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

Well, being super annoyingly technical, he's only died once, and then almost died a second time.

The first time: When the living Madara actually died
The second time: When Itachi released the Edo Tensei

As long as his soul is bound to the real world with ET, he's "alive". So really, he hasn't actually died, even with all the times he's been critically hit.

So.....this brings up an interesting question....since Madara "healed" after being kicked by Lee, I guess he is the person controlling his own ET now? Does that mean in order to get rid of him someone is going to have to do to him what Itachi did to Kabuto? Maybe whatever Sasuke's doing has to do with it, since I see no other way for Madara to finally die. Unless Naruto somehow manages to talk him into it and Madara finds his closure

It's really weird and why I think Kishimoto might've benefited from finding a different way to keep Madara in the game.

Re: How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

Ohww, did I ever say that he took all hits on purpose (even though it's nearly the case)?

Originally Posted by syx

Besides, Madara took some hits on purpose[...]

That's quite a difference, don't you think?

I don't even see Lee's feat as an actual feat, considering Madara was fixed in his position and curiously didn't use his fan. Lee was too fast for Madara to react? That means that Jin-Lee is much more faster than Ee. Madara, while being directly attacked by Mei, was able to react to Ee, who attacked Madara from the side. Jin-Lee moved in a straight line, which is/should be easier to read and react against it. It's really unbelievable in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Stop being right, I might disagree with you on principle alone

That's impossible, bro.
Not saying that I'm always right, I just don't see you saying "Minato > XYZ", "EMS is not an external power up", "Naruto is all about Kyuubi" or "Gaikage < XYZ".

Re: How many times has Madara technically died now lol?

Fucking Madara should be sealed already, the more we see of him, the more destructive it is to his feats and character.

Tobi was a badass once.

The he took a NarutoVillain_2_whimp.cmd to the knee.

And now we have a disaster that is Noobito.

Same stuff is happening with Madara, really. In one moment, we have someone who can destroy...literally anything in seconds...and the next thing you know he's getting hit by...literally anything.

Remember when Madara was awaken from the coffin? And then how he went to battle with an entire army supported by kages/naruto? No bullshit, no blablabla "but they remind me of me in my youth! ", just straight out definition of warlord at its best.

...Then Hashirama fetish appears...

...Then arms crossed syndrome appears...

...Oh sweet! Kicking some Kage ass, finally.

...Ugh...Hashirama fetish again...

...Ugh, now he's standing still again, getting pwned by Rock Lee...

Sigh...Noobito Sr. in the making, guys. Why nobody tried to seal him when Lee got a clear hit? That's what they have been doing for this entire time, this entire arc, yet when they face someone so haxxed as Madara, it's like "nahh, we be 2 pro for dis shyt dawg!", and don't even bother.