Skepticism

EVENTS

We may have to expand the War on Christmas

Parents, though, are being urged to re-consider the ethics of the great Santa Claus lie. In an article published in the journal Lancet Psychiatry, two psychologists have raised the spectre of children’s moral compass being permanently thrown off-kilter by what is normally considered a magical part of the Christmas tradition.

The darker reality, the authors suggest, is that lying to children, even about something fun and frivolous, could undermine their trust in their parents and leave them open to “abject disappointment” when they eventually discover that magic is not real.

My first thought: does this also apply to parents who lie to their children about gods and prayers? They make it sound so dire.

Kathy McKay, a clinical psychologist at the University of New England, Australia and co-author, said: “The Santa myth is such an involved lie, such a long-lasting one, between parents and children, that if a relationship is vulnerable, this may be the final straw. If parents can lie so convincingly and over such a long time, what else can they lie about?”

Levelling with your children so close to the big event may put a bit of a dampener on festivities, but parents must sometimes take the long view, according to McKay. “There is potential for children to be harmed in these lies,” she said.

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I have a better suggestion. Explain about myth and how it can be used to bind a society with fun or be used for evil to control people. Explain that Santa Claus is the good kind of myth because it encourages people to be kind and generous to strangers. Then explain how religion is the bad kind of myth because it uses fear to create an authority over people’s thoughts and actions.

Because Santa isn’t a lie. It’s a myth.

A society that dismisses its myths wholesale as “lies” gets boring fast. From there it’s a slippery slope towards dismissing fiction and literature as “lies.” It’s better to teach kids how to use mythology.

@tuibguy:
While I agree with your general argument, I don’t see how you can draw the difference between a “good myth” (Santa) and a “bad myth” (all of religion). Most religions are a conglomerate of myths, and Santa is a religious myth (I mean, he’s modeled after a Christian saint). I’d say that as soon as you explain to your kids what a myth is and how you deal with it (i.e., don’t take it literally, use it to teach moral lessons, but be aware that moral is historically contingent), you don’t need to differentiate between “good” and “bad” myths; they will realize all on their own that they don’t need myths to prescribe their moral universe, while enjoying the stories for what they are.

@1
I tend to agree, but struggled myself with how to deal with this topic as my kids reached early primary school ages:
– the Santa myth (and FAR worse now, IMHO, the Elf on a Shelf) isn’t purely positive lessons, as the Naughty/Nice list functions a lot like an omniscient and punitive Sky Daddy
– like being atheists, being a “Santa Truther” carries the potential for a great deal of stigma – young kids are either forced to “stay in the closet” (the one with the wrapping paper), or face the wrath of other parents/teachers/kids for “ruining the fun for others”

We opted to tell each of our kids at around 8 years old, when we felt they had sufficient critical thinking and self-control skills that they would be able to weigh further disclosure choices themselves.
But I still felt like I was doing them potential harm before telling them, and worried about effects afterwards.

It will not necessarily remain a lie. After Kurzweill’s singularity, we can use nanotech to create unlimited consumer goods… and Santa-morphic androids to deliver them on Dec 24.
All of the work will be coordinated by a big AI situated in the Arctic, CLAUS-9000 (It is of course plugged into all governments’ surveillance networks, so it knows if you are good or bad. And if you are bad, robot Krampus will come for you) . :)

Jack Chick, of course, had this covered almost a decade ago, in “Fairy Tales” (https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp). In his universe, an eight-year-old who’s been brought up by his parents to believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus will lose his mind when he’s told the truth by a schoolyard asshole, kill two people within days of learning that his entire belief system has been a lie, grow up to land on the FBI’s Most Wanted list, and then go to hell when he rejects the gospel. It’s sort of hilarious, as it so often is, to watch Chick’s desperate tap dance as he tries to differentiate between the myths he likes and the ones he doesn’t.

Telling your children that a robed guy with a reindeer sledge puts the presents under the tree when you bought them is simply a lie.

With all those things we took a “play pretend” approach with our kids. That doesn’t make things any less magical and can add great fun. I remember years of trying to catch my grandma on St. Nick’s eve.

As a kid, I remember feeling absolutely betrayed and appalled by my parents when I found out that Santa was something everyone just made up. They tried a variation on the myth story – that Santa is real because he inspires millions of parents to act in his name to put presents under the Christmas tree – and even as a child I thought that was just another lie.

Oh, to add to the research: My parents didn’t lie about Santa, but they pulled other little tricks. For example, they told me that I could go to the “Baumschule” (literally tree school, a tree nursery) after I’d finished school, leaving me with the idea that it was some place where you learned about nature and trees. I believed them and for years I told all kinds of people that I’d go to tree school after I’d finished school. I’m pretty sure many adults found that very funny and extremely cute. I remember the shame and embarrassment when I found out the truth.
It’s one of those little things that made my parents abusive assholes, so yes, I’m totally not surprised by those research results.

How about: never use A”real” when speaking of Santa? Like discussing fairytales just leave them as characters of a story. Like stories of Robin Hood or Merlin or Harry Potter. Don’t say directly he’s only a story. Leave it tacit for realization providing a little ego boost.
My approach, not general advice.

I still treasure my remaining memories from the time when I believed in Santa, and I never felt angry or stopped trusting my parents for lying to me, in fact I appreciate the efforts they made (I especially remember one night when my uncle made the sounds of reindeer outside the house, it was great). I guess I was lucky? By the way, I found out the truth by means of a friend.

Come to think of it, I also remember the time when I believed in UFOs and God… and to be honest, I kinda miss it. The world was much more mysterious back then, and I could believe that there was hope for the future, and interesting stuff to discover… now, I just can’t wait until this damn world ends.

Maybe I haven’t had enough coffee yet, but both PZ’s post and the article he refers to read like something out of the Onion to me. I find it hard to take the claim seriously that the Santa myth psychologically damages children.*

The God myth, sure, yeah, because that lie is one that is told first to children, but they are then expected to continue to believe or risk becoming social outcasts, within certain communities anyways.

I don’t think the problem with the Santa myth is in the lie. There’s no threat of hell or abandonment when the child ceases to believe in it, in fact a pat on the back and a “Good job figuring that out” are in order. The problem is more likely the sense of entitlement it engenders. The expectation is set that says “I did good, now give me stuff”. We should teach that being good is it’s own reward, to “be good for goodness’ sake”, so to speak.

* I don’t mean that to be critical of PZ here, I think the post was sufficiently tongue in cheek that he probably agrees with me. Incidentally, is it bad form these days to talk about PZ in third person or should we assume he is “in the room and listening” and thus address him directly? (waves hi to PZ)

Back in the day it was obvious that he didn’t read all of the comments, nowadays I’m not too sure.

I’d like to remind people who go “ah, but it never did me no harm” that it’s not OK to generalise from their experience and dismiss the stories of harm from other people. If one child suffers as the result of this while another one doesn’t it does not mean the first child has themselves to blame.

BTW, I think there is a significant difference between religion and Santa: Parents who are religious aren’t actually lying to their children, they’re just wrong. Lying is when you know you’re not telling the truth.

#14 – I’m not dismissing the potential psychological harm, especially not in the context of otherwise abusive parents. However, the Santa myth, in and of its self, isn’t where the blame should be placed. That blame belongs to the abusive parents. FTR, I had an abusive stepfather so I certainly share your pain on that front. An abusive parent can turn any experience in to a nightmare for the child, silly myths that are almost universally shared by billions of people not excluded.

I should have added in my comment at #11 that I CAN imagine doing immense damage to the self esteem or sense of self worth of a child should a parent actually carry through with the whole “coal in the stocking” threat. I’ve seen and heard of parents without the means to buy xmas gifts who then let the child believe they weren’t good enough to receive any. That’s some world class assholery, but again, let’s place the blame where it belongs, on shitty and abusive parents.

A society that dismisses its myths wholesale as “lies” gets boring fast. From there it’s a slippery slope towards dismissing fiction and literature as “lies.” It’s better to teach kids how to use mythology.

No it isn’t. The salient difference being that no one tries to convince their kids that the events described in a work of fiction are true in the first place, and even if they did, it would be completely reasonable to point out that the person is being lied to. This is what distinguishes the Santa bullshit from ordinary works of fiction: adults lie about it being true.

This whole conversation reminds me of why I rather despise Halloween. My aforementioned abusive step father ruined the only thing of my Father’s that I owned and cherished, his flight helmet from his time in the Navy, to make me an “alien” costume. He knew what he was doing, and did it on purpose. I never forgave him. To this day, I haven’t put on a costume for Halloween or any other reason.

I can’t access the full text of the article. Can someone explain whether the article presents actual empirical data concerning the Santa myth per se, or is it a bunch of just-so story telling and attempts to extrapolate from unrelated data?

The God myth, sure, yeah, because that lie is one that is told first to children, but they are then expected to continue to believe or risk becoming social outcasts, within certain communities anyways.

Whatever the consequences of disbelief are, the lie is convincing people to have a false belief. They will think and act the basis of that false belief, which is generally problematic because it is false. You have no justification for misleading them to think/act differently by planting false beliefs into their heads.

I don’t think the problem with the Santa myth is in the lie.

You don’t say how it’s not a problem, just make an assertion that you don’t think it is “the problem” in this case.

There’s no threat of hell or abandonment when the child ceases to believe in it, in fact a pat on the back and a “Good job figuring that out” are in order.

Your new boss lied to you about your pay/benefits at your new job…. Some shit follows, due to the fact that they convinced you to have that false belief. If they told you “Good job figuring that out!” when the lie was uncovered (and of course changed nothing about your actual pay/benefits, since it was a lie), does that sound like it’s the end of the story?

Your parents have a typically permanent and intimate relationship with you. For much of your early life, you depend heavily on them and have little choice but to trust them on numerous things, since the power dynamics are such that they know all sorts of shit which you do not (and can easily lie to you about it). Wouldn’t it put a bit of a strain on your relationship, if they play the role of the boss?

The problem is more likely the sense of entitlement it engenders. The expectation is set that says “I did good, now give me stuff”. We should teach that being good is it’s own reward, to “be good for goodness’ sake”, so to speak.

So how is this an argument that lying is not problematic? It evidently is, by virtue of the fact that it engenders a false sense of the world and how your interactions in it should work (“entitlement” is one way to describe it), or the fact it sets false expectations (not that I will give you stuff if you’re good, but that magic man will do so).

#20 – FTR I’m not a fan of the Santa myth, and if I had kids, which I don’t, I wouldn’t foist it on them, except in the context of teaching them critical thinking. I do however think it’s silly to try and mount a political fight over it. Of all the things skeptics and otherwise critical thinkers can and should be worried about, I don’t think the Santa myth is one of them.

A lack of critical thinking in general is an obvious problem these days, and I say that having just read this:

In fact, I think it’s possible that Santa myth could feasibly be turned on it’s head and used to teach children critical thinking. My parents let me believe it until I didn’t anymore, and it was the very exercise of figuring it out that led me to question the other “big lies” I’d been taught. I remember specifically realizing how ridiculous the Adam and Eve and Noah myths were on their face, and it wasn’t long after my break though on the Santa front. Said abusive stepdad wasn’t very happy when he was told I wasn’t welcome at Sunday school anymore because I was constantly questioning the teacher. I think I was 7 years old.

I was making an effort to NOT dismiss the experiences of some who had a different experience, and a damaging one at that, but trying to keep things in perspective.

Much like the fight over “In God We Trust” and the Pledge of Allegiance, I think atheists are guilty of picking the wrong fights and it’s largely what gets us laughed at and dismissed by the community at large. Have fun on your moral high horse, because you are of course at the end of the day correct, it’s a lie, and one that shouldn’t be taught, but spending any energy on it at all in light of the state of world politics today is a complete and utter waste of said energy.

Of course the Santa myth traumatizes kids. My wife and I had this conversation years ago. She said that the concept of Santa knowing everything about her creeped her out as a child. Check out the lyrics to ‘Santa Claus Is Comin’ To Town’: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/lonestar/santaclausiscomintotown.html. It’s enough to give any kid PTSD. We told our kids that there was no Santa at age four. They were better off for it.

Take it a step further and do a Find and Replace and insert Jesus for Santa Claus in the lyrics and you get an insight into the true nightmare quality at Christianity’s core. My father-in-law, who was raised Catholic, and became a well regarded chemist as Westinghouse Labs, still can’t shake the childhood brainwashing. He knows there is no hell, but deep down he still has this residual fear that maybe, just maybe, he’ll be punished in the end.

A society that dismisses its myths wholesale as “lies” gets boring fast.

Did anyone say to dismiss non-lies as lies? (And are there any examples of a society ever doing that?) Read what Giliell said in post #6. But I can’t believe that needs to be explained to you. So admittedly I’m suspicious.

(I’d guess you’re trying to make up a “mythology” about this whole thing)

I would also like to know if anyone has read the actual study (behind a paywall for me) and determined if it really says what the article claims. I’ve seen enough evidence of the mistakes journalists make when trying to cover scientific studies that I tend to be skeptical of articles like that right off the bat.
Also, if anyone has been able to read the study, what evidence do they use to back up their claims?
Fwiw, I fall into the camp of “treat it like a fun story”. I feel pretty strongly about not lying to my kid, and I feel pretty strongly that trying to convince her that a thing I know to be false is actually real is lying. I’m happy for the people that had a good or even neutral experience with Santa. Not everyone did.

I do however think it’s silly to try and mount a political fight over it.

Well, there is no War on Christmas or any other sort of “political fight.” If you think that unreal thing would be silly if it were real, then okay. However, that’s not what I took this conversation to be about. Santa would also be silly if he were real, but in fact he is not … so what?

Of all the things skeptics and otherwise critical thinkers can and should be worried about, I don’t think the Santa myth is one of them.

It’s an instance of creating elaborate lies, presumably to instill a reward/punishment model of morality in children. That’s not even on the radar anywhere, as something we should be the least bit worried about?

Have fun on your moral high horse, because you are of course at the end of the day correct, it’s a lie, and one that shouldn’t be taught, but spending any energy on it at all in light of the state of world politics today is a complete and utter waste of said energy.

I don’t know what energy you think I’ve spent on it, which you haven’t. You yourself, in the course of trying to claim it’s not a problem, offered reasons why it is a problem. I don’t think it’s a waste to try to make some sense out of what you were saying, ask a few questions, and to point out that your arguments don’t seem to work to establish the points you apparently wanted to make.

Yes, there are many other problems. I do know, and for fuck’s sake you don’t have to tell me, that “the state of world politics today” is a bigger problem, but that doesn’t make this a non-problem. You said you found it hard to believe it could be psychologically damaging (perhaps socially damaging is a better characterization), and I don’t think I’m wasting my energy by addressing how that could be so.

All cultures use fictitious and nebulous threats of retribution for bad behavior with children, and Santa is far from the only one or most nefarious. The Boogey Man is another classic example. I’m sure most of you can recall some version of “I’m going to send you to Father Baker’s”, which was a local orphanage that was regularly used by all my friend’s parents as a threat when they were acting up. It was painted as a horrible place to live, something to fear. Meanwhile it was a perfectly normal orphanage with no complaint ever filed against it. The simple threat of a spanking is no different.

Every parent claims omnipotence with their children. “Don’t think I’m stupid, if you think you can get away with that, you’re wrong! I know everything, I see everything!!” I can’t tell you how many times I heard my mother make that claim with me or my sisters. This is just a transfer from the fake guy in the red suit to the parent. Kids are always made to live in fear of acting inappropriately, and for good reason! It’s necessary to teach them right from wrong.

The reason religion is so dangerous is specifically BECAUSE of the fact that long past the point that children should be able to conceptualize that having morals and proper behavior towards others is good and necessary in and of itself, and thus such tools should no longer be needed, it is never taken off the table as a bludgeon, so we end up with fully grown adults who believe that the sole reason to be good is the fear of hell and inevitably having to face their maker.

This leads to the belief that with out such ultimate retribution, society would break down, thus giving them their justification for wanting to live in a theocracy.

So it’s not the lie, it’s the continuation of the lie. Until a child is able to understand why we must have morals and empathy, punishment is the only real tool we have to teach them with. A child doesn’t understand that the toy belongs to all of the kids at the day care, they just know they want it and will pitch a fit until they get it. Only by punishing them for this behavior with a time out and a stern talking to, over and over again, do we break them of this behavior. Santa, the Boogey Man, Father Baker’s, and the concept that someone is always watching, these are all tools in that arsenal for most parents, unfortunately.

Religion is the only one that persists beyond child hood, and therefor should be the one we take the most issue with, as it causes the greatest harm. I can imagine a perfect world where parents and authority figures do not have to resort to lies or threats of punishment, but rather encourage good behavior with love and attention, yes I can imagine it, but I don’t think it’s all realistic to think that kind of fundamental change in culture can happen during our lifetimes, meanwhile, there are real battles to be fought.

I’d rather start with disabusing Trump voters of the myth that manufacturing jobs are ever going to come back to the midwest en masse than by getting parents to stop lying to their kids about Santa Klaus. I understand we can do both, but one argument has some chance of reaching a mass audience while the other does not, not in today’s world.

cr @ 25, I was writing my comment as you were posting yours, so please don’t take my 26 as dismissing anything you said or talking over you. I’m revisiting your 25 immediately and appreciate the engagement. Reply incoming…

It’s an instance of creating elaborate lies, presumably to instill a reward/punishment model of morality in children. That’s not even on the radar anywhere, as something we should be the least bit worried about?

I’m not sure that children are capable of understanding anything more complex than a simple reward punishment system for morality until they hit a certain age. I’m fairly certain that there is a decent amount of science to back that up, but I’m not in a position right now to spend the time searching for literature on it.

Do I think it’s something to be the least bit worried about? Sure, I think there should be some common sense discussions that we have publicly about how to raise our kids, but even today, despite the mountains of evidence showing that spanking or otherwise physical forms of retribution are horrible for the long term mental health of children, I still see my facebook feed filled with memes of how “The switch raised me to be a fine upstanding member of society” or otherwise how corporal punishment is a good thing.

If we can’t even get people to recognize the harm that physical abuse does to children, how on earth do you ever suppose we convince them that teaching children myths / lies to keep them in line is also harmful?

Yes, there are many other problems. I do know, and for fuck’s sake you don’t have to tell me, that “the state of world politics today” is a bigger problem, but that doesn’t make this a non-problem. You said you found it hard to believe it could be psychologically damaging (perhaps socially damaging is a better characterization), and I don’t think I’m wasting my energy by addressing how that could be so.

I did preface that statement by saying that maybe it was a lack of coffee that lead to my confusion, so give me a pass on that one. You are right, I shouldn’t have difficulty believing that it can cause psychological damage, but I still think that depends on the approach, and that shitty, abusive parents need not rely on the Santa myth to engage in such abuse.

Can it it be psychologically damaging? Of course, must it be? Of course not. Is the Santa Myth the real underlying issue? I don’t think so, and that, I think is the point I was trying to make. I apologize for my bleary eyed pre-coffee words stating otherwise.

I’m not sure that children are capable of understanding anything more complex than a simple reward punishment system for morality until they hit a certain age. I’m fairly certain that there is a decent amount of science to back that up, but I’m not in a position right now to spend the time searching for literature on it.

Like you said in #26, a huge array of beliefs and social practices make this very difficult to test. Where is this control group of children who aren’t taught about Santa (for example)? You, along with many others, feel anxious about the possibility such children will be unable to comprehend and engage in morally appropriate behavior, unless we first give them these incoherent and immoral models to work with. The hypothesis that we need to take a step in the wrong direction like this, in order to eventually make progress the other way (through some mystery process which seems to be doing all of the actual work of moving them in the right direction), isn’t supported by any data in any credible literature that I know about.

Let me raise a similar/related question: can we be good without gods? Many people all over the world have a vague suspicion that a human being needs goddist beliefs to be moral, or at least to properly ground their moral reasoning in the only type of thing which could legitimate it (namely, gods, their rewards/punishments, etc.). This is after all how many people were raised, and they typically believe themselves to be good people, so they assume their goddism is the cause or is somehow important or necessary. Some will even proceed to tell you that “science” backs up their bullshit intuitions. Have they ever met a good atheist? Is that impossible? Do they ask themselves whether they’ve ever done so, or what would count as a “good atheist” if they ever came across such a critter? Do they look for any evidence anywhere, or do they merely assume the conclusions they wanted to reach?

If we can’t even get people to recognize the harm that physical abuse does to children, how on earth do you ever suppose we convince them that teaching children myths / lies to keep them in line is also harmful?

We could start with the proposition that it is unnecessary, just like false beliefs and coercion aren’t necessary for an atheist to live a good life. Or just like torture isn’t necessary for obtaining reliable information. It’s also immoral for lots of reasons and in lots of other ways, but it is not in fact (although people do lie about it, but lying is in all generality something we should not be conditioned to accept) needed to get the good results they’re ostensibly trying to achieve.

We could start with the proposition that it is unnecessary, just like false beliefs and coercion aren’t necessary for an atheist to live a good life.

Right… and how’s that working out for us atheists? I admire your idealism, I just don’t share it. I’m more of a realist and that’s where we apparently differ. Thanks for the great dialogue! It doesn’t have to be over, I just won’t responding for a while due to RL stuff that needs getting done.

It’s interesting how children see things so differently. I don’t think my parents ever tried to convince me Santa Clause was real. They gave me presents and the company they worked for prepared gift packages for all the children and that was that.

I was afraid of the Santa Clause from the company because it was a strange looking unknown person in whose lap I was supposed to sit. Nope, hell no.

At home though, I remember being upset that my parents wouldn’t even try to pretend there was someone mysterious giving me presents. I thought that not even trying to make a bit of a show meant they didn’t care. I knew they had bought things, I often even knew what it was or had chosen it myself… but I wanted them to make it special instead of just giving me a box.
I always thought that was what counted – not the myth but the effort and care.

It working fine for me. It’s true that I can be good as an atheist, and I try to do so.

I’m sure that in some sense it’s true that children aren’t naturally equipped to make good decisions all of the time or understand all sorts of complex moral reasoning. We can acknowledge that fact and try to give them better equipment.

But faced with this fact that kids aren’t good at being good, the suggestion seems to be getting in their faces and saying “you can’t handle the truth!!11!!!” followed by an absurd fabrication about a magic man in a red suit who gives them presents every winter…. Where the fuck did all of that nonsense come from? How could that possibly help?

Is it “realism”, and if so, realism about what? Realism about the fact that people aren’t actually doing anything helpful, but instead something which is at best counterproductive? I’m pretty sure I’m with you on that. I didn’t say that I’m hopeful it will change for the better any time soon, and we’re in agreement on that too.

In my small home town, Santa (with a couple of helpers) paid housecalls on Xmas eve.
The helpers were adults that we knew from town and later we figured out that Santa was someone’s Dad.
Part of the deal was that Santa et al. got a wee dram at each house.

I’d half-planned to be cagey when the topic of Santa came up. Then, K asked me point blank at TWO if Santa were real. Too young for cagey. I told her “no” but that many people did think he was real and it was fun to pretend, so why don’t we have fun pretending? That was the best I could do, and it’s worked out so far. The “magic” of Christmas for her is being surrounded by grandparents anyway.

(Then, at three: “Grandma thinks Santa is real.” Oh, yes, remember how I said some people believe Santa is real? It’s not polite to tell them otherwise unless they ask directly what you think.)

I never talked about Santa (or Jesus-child here), in any different way from talking about dragons and magic. It’s a story, it’s pretend and if your child understands the difference between stories and reality they’ll do fine.