Roserade - BW2 Revamp [QC 3/3][GP 2/2] (See Post #51 for details)

<p>On paper, Roserade looks mediocre. A bland Grass / Poison type sitting in UU wouldn't stand a chance in a tier rife with such threats as Latios, Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Keldeo, right? It can't take a hit to save its life, right? Surprisingly, these statements are both incorrect. Roserade is totally fabulous; just look at that cape! It's also the strongest special Grass-type in the entire game, sporting a nice Special Attack stat of 125 and a nice Speed stat of 90. Its Special Defense isn't too shabby either at 105, and although its Defense and HP are pretty low, they can easily be manipulated to survive some surprisingly hefty attacks. Despite being a bit starved for coverage, Roserade's offensive movepool is surprisingly varied, and it has pretty much every support move you'd ever want other than Rapid Spin, even packing both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Roserade's typing allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes without a second thought and makes it immune to Leech Seed and Toxic, while also bringing along nifty resistances to Water, Grass, and Fighting, making it a solid Keldeo check. It's stronger than Celebi and lacks the awful Pursuit weakness, while it separates itself from Ferrothorn with its Speed and resistance to Fighting. Its fantastic ability, Natural Cure, lets it shrug off status by simply switching out. It didn't really gain anything in the transition to BW2, but it didn't really need anything new. All in all, Roserade is a fantastic Pokemon in OU whose flaws can easily be looked past.</p>

<p>This is perhaps Roserade's best set in the OU metagame, using its typing and excellent support movepool to its advantage. Roserade's calling card over other Grass-types is its access to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, a trait only shared with Forretress and Cloyster in OU. Roserade's typing is quite useful for defensive teams, as it lets Roserade absorb Toxic Spikes and resist Water, Fighting, Grass, and Electric. This typing allows it to go toe-to-toe with Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Jellicent, Pokemon that defensive teams have trouble with, and thanks to Natural Cure it can absorb stray status moves and even set up on bulky Water-types without fearing Scald. It does a decent job at breaking VoltTurn as well if it can avoid Tornadus-T.</p>

<p>Roserade's most important move on this set is definitely Spikes, its best available entry hazard. Giga Drain allows it to take a chunk out of Water-types and Terrakion, while Hidden Power Fire lets it hammer Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor. Rest lets it heal up to full HP in order to continue its job later in a battle. On most Pokemon, Rest is looked down on, as these Pokemon are stuck asleep for two turns or more. Roserade, however, can heal itself just by switching out thanks to Natural Cure. Roserade is an excellent user of Toxic Spikes as well as Spikes, and can run it over Spikes or Hidden Power Fire. The EV spread listed allows Roserade to take a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor and a Choice Specs Secret Sword from Keldeo.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As far as alternate options on this set are concerned, Sleep Powder is your best bet, as putting a Pokemon to sleep practically removes it from the game. Unfortunately, you have to forgo Spikes to use it, as the two moves are illegal together. Aromatherapy, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed are also excellent options, but are generally inferior to the ones listed. Sludge Bomb and Hidden Power Ice can be used over Hidden Power Fire to nail Flying-types, Magic Bounce Pokemon, or Dragon-types on the switch. An EV spread of 252 HP / 44 SpA / 152 SpD / 60 Spe can be used with a Timid nature to outspeed and OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>Espeon and Xatu are this set's greatest foes, as they can bounce back Roserade's entry hazards, then outspeed and OHKO with their STAB moves. Tentacruel takes Roserade's attacks like a champ while spinning Roserade's hazards away and setting its own. Latios and Latias resist its attacks and hit back hard with Psyshock or Draco Meteor. Heatran is a pain in the neck because it hits Roserade super effectively and doesn't fear anything but a stray Hidden Power Ground or Sleep Powder. Ironically, Heatran is also Roserade's best friend, taking the Fire-type moves Roserade hates. Heatran and Jirachi can also keep Tornadus-T in check, so Roserade doesn't have to eat a Hurricane. While Roserade won't like the residual damage from sandstorm, Tyranitar and Landorus work well with Roserade. Tyranitar scares off the Lati twins, Espeon, and Xatu; Landorus takes out Tentacruel and Heatran with Sand Force boosted Earthquakes; and Roserade sponges the Water-type attacks that the two fear. Landorus-T can also be used without Tyranitar, as it takes out the same Pokemon while providing Intimidate for a physically defensive partner.</p>

<p>While Roserade's most common role is as a somewhat offensive user of Spikes and Toxic Spikes, it can pull off a surprisingly good offensive set due to its excellent Speed and Special Attack stats. Its typing and ability provide even more benefits not commonly seen in the OU tier. Due to its Poison typing, it is one of the best offensive Toxic Spikes absorbers, and while its ability might seem redundant in conjunction with its immunity to poison, Natural Cure allows it to practically shrug off paralysis and sleep, which would effectively remove any other offensive Pokemon from the match.</p>

<p>First and foremost, Roserade's powerful STAB Leaf Storm—running off of its high Special Attack—is the strongest unboosted Grass-type attack in OU. Leaf Storm's unfortunate side effect often forces Roserade out after one hit, however, so Sludge Bomb provides a powerful secondary STAB attack with the added benefit of hitting Tornadus-T and Salamence on the switch. Hidden Power Fire rounds off Roserade's coverage and allows it to hit Pokemon such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn super effectively. Hidden Power Ground is an alternative that allows Roserade to hit Heatran, which otherwise walls it, and gives a 31 Speed IV. However, it comes at the cost of the ability to hit many of OU's Steel-types. Sleep Powder is an excellent utility move that can remove a problematic Pokemon from the match, while Toxic Spikes provides nice team support rarely seen on an offensive Pokemon.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The set's 232 Speed EVs allow Roserade to reach 300 Speed and outrun neutral base 100 Pokemon by one point as Hidden Power Fire requires a lowered Speed IV, preventing Roserade from Speed tying with other positive natured base 90s. Although mostly barren, Roserade's movepool is surprisingly large for a Grass / Poison type Pokemon, and as such, it has a a couple more options to run in the fourth slot. Shadow Ball provides the best coverage with the given moves, while Weather Ball is an excellent move on weather teams and allows Roserade to run a different Hidden Power. Growth is Roserade's only boosting move, but Roserade is too frail to boost effectively, and Leaf Storm will simply remove the boost; furthermore, it is outclassed by Venusaur in this regard. Hidden Power Ice can be used in the third slot to hit Pokemon such as Dragonite, but this leaves Roserade helpless against Steel-types. Toxic Spikes can replace Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power to allow for Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder. A Focus Sash can be used over Life Orb to get in a quick Sleep Powder or hit, but the power drop is huge.</p>

<p>Offensive Roserade can be paired with a wide variety of teammates. It loves fast partners with Ground-, Fighting-, or Water-type moves to remove Steel- and Fire-types from the match. Good options for these Pokemon include Starmie, Terrakion, and Dugtrio, the latter of which can also trap grounded Steel- and Fire-types and destroy them with Earthquake. Furthermore, physical walls can soak up attacks aimed at Roserade's awful Defense stat. A special mention goes to Slowbro, which resists all the elemental types Roserade is weak to bar Flying and can switch out and regain health through Regenerator. Heatran resists Flying, is immune to Fire, and can set up Stealth Rock to help Roserade secure some KOs. Finally, Roserade is an excellent partner for any Pokemon that fears status afflictions, such as bulky Water-types or Choice attackers, due to its innate immunity to Toxic and Natural Cure to remove status. Espeon, Starmie, and Volcarona all pose problems, but thankfully, Choice Scarf Terrakion can easily defeat these Pokemon with a quick Stone Edge or Close Combat.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Weather Ball is pretty awesome on weather teams. Rain and sun essentially give Roserade a 150 Base Power Water- or Fire-type move and grant you the ability to use Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Ground respectively, although you're really better off using a Chlorophyll sweeper such as Venusaur on Sun teams. Sandstorm gives Roserade a Rock-type Weather Ball, which provides some useful coverage on Flying-type switch-ins. Hail makes Weather Ball Ice-type, which provides amazing coverage with Hidden Power Fire; this compounds your Hail team's weakness to Fire-type moves, however. Extrasensory smacks Infernape as it switches in and hits Poison-types hard, making it wonderful alongside Toxic Spikes. Leech Seed can be used to bug Heatran and sap ridiculous amounts of health from Blissey and Chansey. Aromatherapy is a great support option, but unless you have a very status-weak team, it's probably outclassed by another move.</p>

<p>A set utilizing Choice Scarf is a nice idea; it might surprise faster Pokemon such as Terrakion and Keldeo. An EV spread of 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe with a Modest nature allows Roserade to outspeed all base 130 Pokemon and OHKO Tornadus-T in any weather with Weather Ball. An offensive set using Technician and Magical Leaf could be used to allow Spikes on an offensive set, but the loss of Natural Cure hurts pretty badly.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Strong priority moves from the likes of Scizor, Mamoswine, and Lucario easily take out Roserade, especially since they target its low Defense stat. SubDisable Gengar resists Roserade's STAB moves, blocks Sleep Powder with Substitute, and can prevent it from using its coverage moves. Most Dragon-types can set up on Roserade, but they are hit hard by Sludge Bomb. Chansey and Blissey wall Roserade all day. Xatu and Espeon reflect its hazards and threaten back with their STAB moves, but must be careful around offensive variants. Heatran is arguably Roserade's best counter, but fears Hidden Power Ground. Latios and Latias take its hits and can use Psyshock to wipe it out. Ferrothorn in the rain is rather annoying as it can set up as many hazards as it wants against Roserade. Most Fire-types can beat Roserade, but if they are outsped, they can be 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb&mdash;even Volcarona can't switch in on that. Both formes of Tornadus outspeed and destroy Roserade with Hurricane. Gothitelle can't take repeated hits but can easily trap and OHKO Roserade with Psychic. Dugtrio can trap and kill a weakened Roserade. Tentacruel takes Leaf Storm like a champ and spins away Roserade's hazards. Reuniclus doesn't care about entry hazards, takes Roserade's hits relatively well, and KOes in return with its own STAB moves. Fortunately for Roserade, all of its counters (except Magic Bounce users) can be neutered with a well-timed Sleep Powder.</p>

Last slot on defensive spikes should be rest/ stun spore. Leech seed doesn't do enough on this set to use it over rest (full heal) or stspore (cripple that latios that won't stop switching in... Or whatever). Plus using leech seed for recovery makes it compete with ferrothorn, who can't use natural cure + rest

Main thing over other sun abusers is that it isn't badly hindered when the weather is changed as it has a decent speed to work with along with a change in a coverage move (weather ball) to hit different targets.

Weatherball turns into a 100 BP Fire type move on the sun to get any bulky steel (not named heatran) or grass type attempting to wall you, or a 100 BP Water type move on the rain to take on the fire types while also helping against most steels not named ferrothorn, on sand it turns into a rock type move sadly leaving her with 2 same type moves, and last on hail it turns into an ice type move that helps her a lot against many dragon types that can take most any other attack from her; even if there's no weather, it becomes a normal type move that gets boosted to 75 BP thanks to techinician, so it can still be useful as a coverage move.

With a fighting resistance it can take on technician breloom swiftly if the weather stays in sun.

Main thing over other sun abusers is that it isn't badly hindered when the weather is changed as it has a decent speed to work with along with a change in a coverage move (weather ball) to hit different targets.

Weatherball turns into a 100 BP Fire type move on the sun to get any bulky steel (not named heatran) or grass type attempting to wall you, or a 100 BP Water type move on the rain to take on the fire types while also helping against most steels not named ferrothorn, on sand it turns into a rock type move sadly leaving her with 2 same type moves, and last on hail it turns into an ice type move that helps her a lot against many dragon types that can take most any other attack from her; even if there's no weather, it becomes a normal type move that gets boosted to 75 BP thanks to techinician, so it can still be useful as a coverage move.

With a fighting resistance it can take on technician breloom swiftly if the weather stays in sun.

If in rain it will have a hard time passing over walls like ferrothorn and amoongus, but if sun is up they're as good as dead.

Most faster attackers will take her down easily.

EDIT: Jumping on the boat of technician roserade not being released, was under the impression too.

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It is outclassed by Venasaur because Vena has Chlorophyll and Giga Drain. Venasaur can also afford to use Sleep Powder, without losing too much coverage. However, that's just my opinion, if any other QC members want to speak up they're welcome to.

My opinions:

Toxic Spiker

What exactly does Focus Sash help with? I think LO is definitely supposed to be the first item of choice; because Roserade should be used for support / offensive pivoting. You're probably not going to stay in long enough for LO damage to be dangerous, especially since the two most important moves in that set don't activate LO recoil.

HP Ice before HP Fire. Sure, steel types can take hits but none bar Jirachi/Heatran can do much back to you, and none of them like to be put to sleep. Heatran is also immune to HP Fire anyway. HP Ice is much more useful IMO, hitting Tornadus/Landorus/Thundurus, and also nailing Lum Dragons that think you'll fall for their tricks.

Mention how Roserade loves to be part of Stall/VoltTurn teams, they appreciate the hazards and also love having walls put to sleep (especially Landorus)

Looks good

Defensive Spikes

Not so sure about this one, but if it stays some changes:

Slash TSpikes with Spikes, it's what differentiates Roserade from other Spikers

I think the HP's can go on this one. Put Stun Spore in it's place, it's a very useful tool for Roserade and allows it to cripple more pokemon and cause more switches.

No mention of 252 HP / 252 SDef on the TSpikes set? Its been arguably the most used spread for the entirety of BW and I've never actually come across anyone bar myself using the offensive spread at all, let alone Focus Sash on it. The specially defensive EV spread should really be the primary option, and I don't think sash even deserves a mention.

120 Def on the defensive set lets it survive Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch iirc.

Also, Spikes is illegal with Sleep Powder, which is why the second set does not have it. It's also illegal with Leaf Storm if anyone was wondering. Please consider what is actually possible before posting.

Toxic Spiker
What exactly does Focus Sash help with? I think LO is definitely supposed to be the first item of choice; because Roserade should be used for support / offensive pivoting. You're probably not going to stay in long enough for LO damage to be dangerous, especially since the two most important moves in that set don't activate LO recoil.

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I took LO off because its job is to set up Toxic Spikes and put something to sleep, in which case Focus Sash or Leftovers is a better idea. Leaf Storm is still pretty strong though.

HP Ice before HP Fire. Sure, steel types can take hits but none bar Jirachi/Heatran can do much back to you, and none of them like to be put to sleep. Heatran is also immune to HP Fire anyway. HP Ice is much more useful IMO, hitting Tornadus/Landorus/Thundurus, and also nailing Lum Dragons that think you'll fall for their tricks.

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As was the case on that Dragonite set Jimera0 finished a few days ago, they're all just as useful so I'll leave it as is and give each Hidden Power a proper explanation, unless a QC member objects. I personally think Steels would be a more important target than hitting Tornadus-T on the switch, since HP Ice's targets are rarely walls. Gliscor, Hippowdon (Leaf Storm!) and bulky Dragonite are the only walls that really fear Ice in OU, and Gliscor takes 80.22 - 94.35% from Leaf Storm without Life Orb...

Mention how Roserade loves to be part of Stall/VoltTurn teams, they appreciate the hazards and also love having walls put to sleep (especially Landorus)

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Now that I think about it, that is absolutely correct. Will do.

Defensive SpikesNot so sure about this one, but if it stays some changes:
Slash TSpikes with Spikes, it's what differentiates Roserade from other Spikers

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I'm still getting this second set sorted out; I've seen double hazard Roserade before. This is a dedicated Spikes set though, so for now Spikes is on its own.

I think the HP's can go on this one. Put Stun Spore in it's place, it's a very useful tool for Roserade and allows it to cripple more pokemon and cause more switches.

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A pretty good idea, but mono-attackers without a boosting move or Toxic/Will-O-Wisp are rare for a reason.

No mention of 252 HP / 252 SDef on the TSpikes set? Its been arguably the most used spread for the entirety of BW and I've never actually come across anyone bar myself using the offensive spread at all, let alone Focus Sash on it. The specially defensive EV spread should really be the primary option, and I don't think sash even deserves a mention.

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I've only actually battled one Roserade, and imo if you're maxing Special Defense Tentacruel does it way better.

Just quoting all of this at once:

120 Def on the defensive set lets it survive Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch iirc.

No mention of 252 HP / 252 SDef on the TSpikes set? Its been arguably the most used spread for the entirety of BW and I've never actually come across anyone bar myself using the offensive spread at all, let alone Focus Sash on it. The specially defensive EV spread should really be the primary option, and I don't think sash even deserves a mention.

120 Def on the defensive set lets it survive Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch iirc.

Edit: also can can we stop mentioning team preview in the overviews as if it is brand new, BW has been out for like 2 years.

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Not bothered either way, neither really gets any use anymore, although I'd probably prefer the offensive set right now if anything: the amount of teams that dgaf about TSpikes/have Tentacruel in rain/some other absorber is way higher than it used to be. Max sdef Roserade is a much riskier mon than it used to be to run, especially in bw2. Either way, I've always thought running 120 def just to survive a BP is pretty silly. I really doubt you'll find yourself running a team that consistently has a 100% Roserade to take a Scizor BP instead of any of the other options (and even then, you're going to lose your Roserade the next time it comes in anyway).

I really want to put one of the hazard sets first on the analysis, but I'm really not sure if they're that viable right now. If Technician was released there could be a decent offensive Spiker, but there isn't..

I have quite a lot of experience with defensive Roserade. Well the first thing I'd like that to address that it should probably be named defensive instead of defesnive "spiker" because of the inclusion of Toxic Spikes (pesky semantics me). More importantly, this Roserade set should have heavy emphasis of its ability to be included on to a stall team. As a matter of fact this is where I've used and seen this set most often used! Don't combine the first two sets since it really enjoys that bulk! Roserade has a number of important niches to provide to stall teams that makes it very common there:

Reasons why Defensive Roserade has heavy use on stall:

It absorbs Toxic Spikes

It can provide the very rare Toxic Spikes (of course it can use Spikes but usually stall teams already have a user of it such as Skarmory, Forretress, and Deoxys-D)

Can set up safely on bulky waters without fear of Scald unlikes Ferrothorn

It can counter Keldeo and Jellicent, two very large threats to stall teams

It can act as a status absober and as a cleric

It can break Volt-Turn very easily like Celebi

While those defense EV's were very limited in use for taking CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, they are now very important to take Secret Sword's from Keldeo. Right now I would actually put the defensive set in the #1 spot as opposed to the Toxic Spikes set. Nearly every offensive hazard team will use Deoxys-D for hazards instead and Toxic Spikes as a lead is just so meh compared to it since they (Toxic Spikes) aren't as useful (unless you run a heavy special offense team trying to take down Chansey). Meanwhile, Roserade actually has a very distinct advantage over Ferrothorn for its ability to counter Keldeo, something balance teams really appreciate along with its Spikes!

I would also AC mention an 252 HP / 44 SAtk / 176 SDef / 36 Spd
Timid Nature spread since it allows it to always OHKO Scizor with HP Fire after SR and to outspeed bulky Rotom-W and hit it with Giga Drain. Of course an AC mention of Aromatherapy, maybe even a slash, is good too. TBH Stun Spore and especially Leech Seed are lackluster.

Moderator

I agree with DoughBoy that you shouldn't merge the two sets, I really don't see any way for Roserade to successfully set up two layers of T-Spikes plus at least two layers of Spikes (to get more damage on Steel types than Stealth Rock ever would). Imo T-Spikes, Sleep Powder and Aromatherapy (AC mention seems ok) are its best utility options on one set, while it could arguably use Spikes and Rest instead of the first two. Aromatherapy is, of course, relegated because Roserade absolutely needs Giga Drain/ Leaf Storm and HP Fire to counter VoltTurn (with DoughBoy's spread it will also always OHKO Genesect, so that's nice; should it warrant a mention, Leaf Storm is better for a harder hit on Landorus, though that's from the old VoltTurn teams). Legality issues really suck, since many times you'll be forced to not use T-Spikes due to how common Tentacruel and Amoonguss can be, but Sleep Powder is definitely niche for Roserade.

Just a minor nitpick, but hadn't it been decided that Black Sludge >> Lefties for Poison-types? You should probably change that.

That's all I have for now, hope I was of help

EDIT: For the record, Genesect and Landorus's mentions were for KOing on the switch, I know there's no way in hell that Roserade will come clean versus those two since they'll always outspeed... I felt like that statement needed some back up, since unlike Scizor, they will U-Turn before being hit

I'm really sorry this took so long to finish. This could use a few pointers near the end, but for now I think it's pretty much ready for QC approval. I'm really tired though so I may be a bit off in that regard...

Fucking Cacturne indeed! But you can still slash Spikes second, as the combination of Giga Drain, HP Fire, Spikes and Rest is perfectly fine.

EDIT: Dismiss the above i mixed up the sets in my mind. Still i believe that an offensive set of Giga Drain, HP Fire, Spikes, Sludge Bomb / Rest is very viable, so maybe slash Sludge Bomb with Sleep Powder and Spikes with T-Spikes on the offensive set? Or mention the combination i mentioned in AC? Idk, fucking Cacturne screwed our little rose lady big time :D

Pocket, my only problem with that is that I'm just not sure where Toxic Spikes should go. More supportive sets will want both Sleep Powder and TSpikes, while more offensive sets will probably only want Sleep Powder OR Rest as a non-attacking move. It's hard to believe that something with such a shallow movepool can have 4MSS so bad...

Also, I won't be doing any more testing (or much Pokemon at all) for the next week or so, but I'll pop in for this analysis.

I've been theorymoning a Scarf Roserade set, don't know how viable it is, but it might be workable. It can revenge Keldeo, which is the main thing, but you also have a fast Sleep Powder, don't care about status, and can absorb Toxic Spikes. Unlike Venusaur, you are not completely dependent on the sun and pack a bit more punch initially.

Leaf Storm for power, Weather Ball for coverage (OHKOes Tornadus-T after Stealth Rock in any weather not named weatherless). I prefer Sludge Bomb for the STAB, but HP Ice can be used to check Dragonite, I guess. Sleep Powder in the last slot for a quick sleep, but Giga Drain can be used for late game cleaning if your opponent has little to check Grass-types. Toxic Spikes can also work in the last slot if you want some quick TSpikes. The EVs allow you to outspeed base 130s, but you can speed creep a bit further according to your needs.

I'm not sure why you didn't just go with max Special Attack, to be honest. Why EV yourself to get specific KOs when you can just run right through everything with Leaf Storm? That said, I'm not 100% sure if a Specs set should even go online with Roserade's exploitable defenses (although it's definitely getting an OO mention). While its STABs get good coverage together, neither one is particularly good on its own, making it easy to switch in a resist. Meanwhile, many Specs Pokemon (like Keldeo) are perfectly capable of sweeping with a Specs set, Roserade's rather bad STABs and constantly weakening Leaf Storm make it hard to stay in, and that residual damage will add up fast on a set that has less room for Rest.

I'm not sure why you didn't just go with max Special Attack, to be honest. Why EV yourself to get specific KOs when you can just run right through everything with Leaf Storm? That said, I'm not 100% sure if a Specs set should even go online with Roserade's exploitable defenses (although it's definitely getting an OO mention). While its STABs get good coverage together, neither one is particularly good on its own, making it easy to switch in a resist. Meanwhile, many Specs Pokemon (like Keldeo) are perfectly capable of sweeping with a Specs set, Roserade's rather bad STABs and constantly weakening Leaf Storm make it hard to stay in, and that residual damage will add up fast on a set that has less room for Rest.

shrang, the Scarf set looks promising for what it can revenge.

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this is specifically designed as a counter for Rain/Sand teams.

and like u said, roserade has bad stabs, so rather than spamming leaf storm, I'd concentrate on retaliate-ohko with leaf storm.