On 31/01/2013 kinglukexiv wrote:>Cheers everyone for the advice and store recommendations from everyone.> I've decided to go for the following:>>- set of totem cams>- C4's in the larger sizes (2-4)>- gold link cam>- set of DMM Torque nuts>- set of BD stoppers>- set of DMM offsets>>as well as some assorted biners, slings, nut tools etc etc. Hopefully>this should see me sorted for all the beginners stuff I shall be doing.>>See you all on the crags!

On 31/01/2013 mikllaw wrote:>On 31/01/2013 kinglukexiv wrote:>>Cheers everyone for the advice and store recommendations from everyone.>> I've decided to go for the following:>>Practice placements with some solo toprope protected (knots or grigri)>aiding

Whilst I totally respect Mikl's opinion, and I've heard him recommend this before, has anyone actually done this as a means to learn and gain competence with placing gear? If so, how many hours/routes did you do?

Also, is this method really better than just doing mileage on easy routes? The plus out of Mikl's way is that you'll know for sure that the gear is good, the minus is that you won't get much variety in the types of placements maybe leading (excuse the pun) to a false sense of security and experience. On the other hand, leading lots of different easy routes will give you experience in finding placements but not much experience in knowing what will hold. Additionally top rope/aiding won't give you experience in how rope drag effects placements, leading will do this. Also the aiding seems more likely a solo experience where leading (lots of) easy routes gives you a chance to have learning conversations about your placements and your partner's placements.

Not trying to start a slanging match, just interested in people's thoughts on this.

On 31/01/2013 kinglukexiv wrote:>Cheers everyone for the advice and store recommendations from everyone.> I've decided to go for the following:>>- set of totem cams>- C4's in the larger sizes (2-4)>- gold link cam>- set of DMM Torque nuts>- set of BD stoppers>- set of DMM offsets>>as well as some assorted biners, slings, nut tools etc etc. Hopefully>this should see me sorted for all the beginners stuff I shall be doing.>>See you all on the crags!>

I bought a #4 Camalot when I bought my rack 8 years ago and I've only placed it a few times. Half the time I use it I find that I need a #5 (Watchtower crack, Hermes, etc).

Something to think about: Campsaver is now offering free postage to Australia if you spend more than $400. Steve at Rock Hardware is great, so I'd suggest getting what you can't get from the US from him.

On 4/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:> has anyone actually done this as a means to learn and gain>competence with placing gear? If so, how many hours/routes did you do?
--I spent a lot of time lead back-rope aiding up routes in the easrly 70s when there were no partners around

>Also, is this method really better than just doing mileage on easy routes?
-- On easy routes you might place 10 pieces in an hour or two, and (hopefully) never test any of them. Aiding a 20m crack you will place 20 to 30 pieces, weight them all, and then try to remove them. If you are doing easy routes with an experienced partner , their feedback can be very useful (particularly if it is "your gear is cr@p")

On 31/01/2013 kinglukexiv wrote:>Cheers everyone for the advice and store recommendations from everyone.> I've decided to go for the following:>>- set of totem cams>- C4's in the larger sizes (2-4)>- gold link cam>- set of DMM Torque nuts>- set of BD stoppers>- set of DMM offsets>>as well as some assorted biners, slings, nut tools etc etc. Hopefully>this should see me sorted for all the beginners stuff I shall be doing.>>See you all on the crags!>

Yep, what Mike said. Midweek toproping with a mini-traxion is the way forward. Do you really think that any of your friends want to sit there for hours holding a rope while you work out how to climb properly?

On 4/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 4/02/2013 Batey wrote:>>>Why 3 types of cams and not just a set of C4's if i may ask?>>Because pretty much everyone who has a bit of experience told the dude>not to get small C4's

Yeah fair enough. Can't argue with experience. Was just looking at it as a "starter rack" and keeping it simple. Cant say ive used smaller C4s more then once or twice.

On 4/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>On 31/01/2013 mikllaw wrote:>>Practice placements with some solo toprope protected (knots or grigri)>>aiding>>Whilst I totally respect Mikl's opinion, and I've heard him recommend>this before, has anyone actually done this as a means to learn and gain>competence with placing gear? If so, how many hours/routes did you do?>>Also, is this method really better than just doing mileage on easy routes?

Many years ago when I first started in the climbing game, the adage was similar; i.e. walk around the base of cliffs placing gear and testing it with a sling attached and bouncing on it.
It is not a matter of number of routes or hours involved, but whatever is necessary to supplement/increase the skill set that one may already have.
Most large nuts (or equivalent), are intuitive to place and also pretty bomber, unless deliberately marginal placements are chosen in order to see how far they can be pushed.
The real education is in seeing just how little it takes to upset the smaller placements.
One eye opening experience can be sufficient to induce an appropriate amount of wariness ever after!
As mikl pointed out, cleaning the gear from the placements is also educational.
Given that it is a ground based controlled environment, clipping a cow's tail (short length of rope), to a high piece can be used to simulate how rope tension will affect lower placements in the event of a 'fall'.

> The plus out of Mikl's way is that you'll know for sure that the gear>is good, the minus is that you won't get much variety in the types of placements>maybe leading (excuse the pun) to a false sense of security and experience.

It is easy to look for variety. In fact a true beginner probably won’t even consider using placements that a more experienced climber might utilise, simply because they may not recognise the possibilities literally staring them in the face.

>On the other hand, leading lots of different easy routes will give you>experience in finding placements but not much experience in knowing what>will hold. Additionally top rope/aiding won't give you experience in how>rope drag effects placements, leading will do this. Also the aiding seems>more likely a solo experience where leading (lots of) easy routes gives>you a chance to have learning conversations about your placements and your>partner's placements.>
Even in the cliff base pro-placing tour, a mentor following the learner around to offer constructive comment, helps.

>Not trying to start a slanging match, just interested in people's thoughts>on this.

On 4/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:>On 31/01/2013 mikllaw wrote:>>Practice placements with some solo toprope protected (knots or grigri)>>aiding>>Whilst I totally respect Mikl's opinion, and I've heard him recommend>this before, has anyone actually done this as a means to learn and gain>competence with placing gear? If so, how many hours/routes did you do?

I've done maybe 30 pitches of self belay TR 'aiding' and really enjoyed the opportunity to learn about placements at my own pace. While I learned what would hold body weight, and some fairly aggressive bounce testing, I find I still question some placements and enjoy getting feedback, on my placements, from my more experienced partners.

If you are leading easy trad, it's tempting to keep climbing till you find a good placement, sometimes it's on the belay ledge. When you're aiding you only have what's in reach. This makes you much better at finding placements.

On 31/01/2013 kinglukexiv wrote:>Cheers everyone for the advice and store recommendations from everyone.> I've decided to go for the following:>>- set of totem cams>- C4's in the larger sizes (2-4)>- gold link cam>- set of DMM Torque nuts>- set of BD stoppers>- set of DMM offsets>>as well as some assorted biners, slings, nut tools etc etc. Hopefully>this should see me sorted for all the beginners stuff I shall be doing.>>See you all on the crags!>

Great choices. I love the DMM wallnuts too rather than the BD's. Also, make sure to check out the official totem site for purchasing as they have free shipping and 10% off if you get 5 or more. I've got their Aliens too which are also awesome. Other good shops in the USA I've used are backcountrygear.com and backcountry.com. You might need a shipping forwarder for some brands though.