Twenty four and now 48 hours after the demolition derby/gunfight at Club Rio, I'm still waiting for somebody -- like, say, Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird -- to stop hiding behind prepared statements and words of familial support and come right out and say what needs to be said:

"THIS IS GARBAGE, WE ARE EMBARRASSED BY WHAT OUR PLAYERS DID, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TOLERATE ANY MORE. AND BY THE WAY, WE'RE REALLY SORRY.''

When do we hear that?

From Bird, specifically?

Because if I remember Bird's rousing postseason post-mortem news conference, he made quite an issue of seizing control and ensuring that last year's lack of professionalism would never again be tolerated on his watch.

What did he say?

Yeah, here it is:

"I've got to take more responsibility for the way these players (behave),'' Bird said last season after the Pacers were mercifully removed from the postseason by the New Jersey Nets. "After noticing the fans' frustration, I think it's up to me to take the next step and make sure these guys make the change. If they can't make the change, we've got to make the change. We just can't have that. It's not what this franchise is all about. So I'll have to do more. I probably should've done more last year. But I don't like to walk into the middle of the season and sort of discredit (coach) Rick (Carlisle). But I know what I have to do and I'm going to do it.''
Like, how about now?

The minute Stephen Jackson, who is probably quite lucky to be alive after his run-in with the likes of "Fingers'' and "Dino,'' returns from his assorted injuries?
In reality, there's not a lot the Pacers or Bird can really do to the Rio Boys. For now, there are no legal penalties looming -- maybe famous attorney Alan Dershowitz can explain the whole no possession charge for marijuana thing to me -- so the league won't penalize them and the team can't penalize them. There's no curfew, so it's not like they can be fined for staying out past their bedtime. Bad judgment isn't a fineable offense, last I checked.

Bench them? What purpose does that serve? Right now, Tinsley is your top point guard, a frightening prospect under the best of circumstances.

What can be done, though, is something symbolic, something from Bird, who, despite his hit-and-miss record as a basketball executive here, still has a name that means something important in this area: He simply has to speak openly and honestly to the fans here -- no mincing words, no public relations -- and just speak from the heart.

Forget rolling out Jackson, whose words just don't mean anything anymore. Or Tinsley, who has never made any connection with this town, or Marquis Daniels and Jimmie "Snap" Hunter, who have made one heck of a lousy first impression.

Just Bird, saying all the things his coach and his players couldn't or wouldn't say the past two days, stepping up the way he failed to after The Brawl two years ago and after Ron Artest's trade request last year.

Is that so difficult?

Really, who else is going to do it?

Not team CEO Donnie Walsh. At this point, he's a lame duck. He doesn't have the personality or the stomach for it. For all the great things he has done over the years, he has been guilty of falling too far in love with players in recent seasons, committing too many dollars and years to guys who didn't deserve the deal. Tinsley through 2011? Really? Jackson, you should know, is here through 2010. Little wonder whatever trade efforts the Pacers may have made this summer didn't go anywhere.

Carlisle isn't going to bring down the hammer, either, not even with the security of that new contract and new job title. He made that abundantly clear the day after the incident, when he was exceedingly soft on his players, chiding them only for making an error in judgment by being out so late on a training camp night.

When I asked him about the guns, he dismissed the question as a legal one he was ill-equipped to answer. And when I asked about the pot police found in Tinsley's car, he said he never confronted his erstwhile starting point guard about the subject.

Personally, if I had a point guard who is A) supposed to be taking charge of a new, up-tempo style and is B) always sick and/or hurt, I'm going to be asking him some questions about the pot the cops found in the passenger door. But that's just me.

Later, he noted that Jackson was exceedingly emotional and contrite about the episode, and said he wondered if Jackson's lack of more serious injuries was some sort of "karmic'' result of his genuine desire to leave the establishment and avoid a confrontation.

I don't expect the players to do anything beyond what they're already doing: That is, circle the wagons. Family is family. Hey, they supported Artest, even through gritted teeth. When a reporter asked new locker room elder spokesman Darrell Armstrong on Friday about the message the Pacers are sending, Armstrong responded, "What? You've never been to a strip club?''
The reporter countered, "Not with guns and drugs in the car.''

Armstrong said, "Well, that's just speculation.''

Um, no, that's not speculation.

Larry, the floor is yours.

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:21 AM

HELL of an article. I agree 100% here.

naptown

10-08-2006, 03:21 AM

Typical Boob Krapitz.

Mourning

10-08-2006, 04:20 AM

HELL of an article. I agree 100% here.

I haven't checked, but I do wonder if you were as critical of Arenas this summer as you seem to be of the Pacers.

Looking at the situation it seems our players were victims more then anything else.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

D-BONE

10-08-2006, 08:59 AM

Kravitz simply falling in line with those who conflate this whole incident (in which our guys allegedly did nothing wrong) with talks and publicity about the team's attitude/image/discipline etc. regarding their basketball-related activities.

Change the law and/or team policy to restrict something they did and we can discuss this. If you don't like Jack for his on-court baggage, fine. Argue for a trade. But don't confuse Club Rio with that argument.

Bad judgment in one's personal life in this type of context is not something that can be policed. Holding these guys to such high standards in their personal lives as those being bandied about in terms of what happened Sat. is akin to reducing restricting their personal freedoms based on the laws of the land.

Hicks

10-08-2006, 09:03 AM

Some of us don't expect any apology from the team. This mob mentality, and specifically the "anger" is disgusting.

DisplacedKnick

10-08-2006, 09:24 AM

If I'm the Pacers I'm scrambling to put together a mailing to anyone who's on a ticket list from the past 5 years asking them how this would influence their ticket purchases/game attendance. Or I might hire a firm to call them.

We know there's a ton of screaming in letters to the editor, e-mails to TV stations, etc. But there's the massive weight of the silent majority.

It's a business and the Pacers will have to view what they do with Jackson as a business decision. They may even want to wait a week or two until the uproar has died down and then make contacts.

In the short term, I wouldn't expect much beyond ultra-general statements. But being as this is Indiana, I expect trading him will be the decision they have to make - if it was NYC it might be a different story.

I haven't checked, but I do wonder if you were as critical of Arenas this summer as you seem to be of the Pacers.

Looking at the situation it seems our players were victims more then anything else.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

That guy (roabertmo) got put on my ignore list long ago, you wont miss anything by doing the same.

3rdStrike

10-08-2006, 10:54 AM

This guy's an idiot. Smoking weed leads to being sick and injury-prone? Did an adult write this article? He needs a lawyer to explain to him that you can't get charged for having a negligible amount of marijuana in the vehicle, that could have come from anywhere, including a valet? What a complete fool.

I don't know why this guy is (and several here are)obsessed with crossing his arms and saying "APOLOGIZE!" like that's going to magically make everything sunshine and rainbows. What exactly must they apologize for? Shouldn't he be demanding that the punks who started this whole thing apologize? Without them, this would have never happened.

And I like how this guy indicts Daniels and Hunter. Hell of a first impression? They didn't do ANYTHING. I can't believe people get paid to right garbage like that.

!Pacers-Fan!

10-08-2006, 11:09 AM

this artical sounds like some punk wrote it.
i think yall r taking this too seriously, yall need to relax, we should support Jaxx as fans.

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 11:39 AM

I haven't checked, but I do wonder if you were as critical of Arenas this summer as you seem to be of the Pacers.

Looking at the situation it seems our players were victims more then anything else.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

He wasnt, not at all.

BlueNGold

10-08-2006, 11:44 AM

this artical sounds like some punk wrote it.

I don't think Jax works for the star.

Roy Munson

10-08-2006, 12:00 PM

This guy's an idiot. Smoking weed leads to being sick and injury-prone? Did an adult write this article? He needs a lawyer to explain to him that you can't get charged for having a negligible amount of marijuana in the vehicle, that could have come from anywhere, including a valet? What a complete fool.

I don't know why this guy is (and several here are)obsessed with crossing his arms and saying "APOLOGIZE!" like that's going to magically make everything sunshine and rainbows. What exactly must they apologize for? Shouldn't he be demanding that the punks who started this whole thing apologize? Without them, this would have never happened.

And I like how this guy indicts Daniels and Hunter. Hell of a first impression? They didn't do ANYTHING. I can't believe people get paid to right garbage like that.

Wow. I'm sure I'll get my wrist slapped for writing this, but you are an immature, ignorant fool.

RamBo_Lamar

10-08-2006, 12:15 PM

This mob mentality, and specifically the "anger" is disgusting.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I beleive some anger is justified here, but maybe not
all of it targeted at just the players involved in the latest incident. I'm sure
there wouldn't be anywhere near as much backlash and anger right now
had there not been all the other incidents over the last couple years.

But at this point, whether it had been Jack and company out on the town,
or a ballboy at a kiddies birthday party, it is still an incident with negative
connotations that sullies and hurts the Pacers image which they have been
working hard to rebuild, and I'm sure have been putting alot of time and
money into doing so.

Ultimately, these extra expenses are going to get passed along to us, the
fans, when we end up getting bent over for higher ticket prices. Higher
ticket prices or not, we will still love and support our team, and hope for
the best for it.

This is why (and I think alot of folks have missed the point here) alot of us
are sick and tired and angry when something happens that might hurt what
the Pacers have been trying to build - irregardless of who is involved doing
whatever. Yes, being Jack and Tins does throw gas on the flames since
they are controversial to start with.

It may not be right, it may be shallow minded, but alot of us are simply
sick and tired of our team's image being sullied in one way or another,
irregardless of the excuse, the reason, or the reported facts, and
want it to stop - period.

I'd be surprised if the TPTB, and the Simons didn't feel the same way,
and like alot of fans, probably have for some time now.

What's going to happen next?

BlueNGold

10-08-2006, 12:20 PM

What's going to happen next?

One of two things. Either TPTB make more personnel moves or the franchise continues on the road to ruin. They have one foot in the grave right now. The franchise cannot survive 2 more years of this. People are already bailing.

grace

10-08-2006, 02:14 PM

Did an adult write this article?

No, a fuzzy little animal did. :kravitz:

McKeyFan

10-08-2006, 02:18 PM

I don't think Jax works for the star.

Ding.

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 02:27 PM

I haven't checked, but I do wonder if you were as critical of Arenas this summer as you seem to be of the Pacers.

Looking at the situation it seems our players were victims more then anything else.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Arenas did nothing illegal, had no weapons, no drugs, and his late night altercation was during the offseason.

ajbry

10-08-2006, 02:47 PM

Arenas did nothing illegal, had no weapons, no drugs, and his late night altercation was during the offseason.

Jack did nothing illegal either!

You guys are simply incredible. I've never seen quite as large a display of blind ignorance, here at PD.

ABADays

10-08-2006, 02:50 PM

Jack did nothing illegal either!

You guys are simply incredible. I've never seen quite as large a display of blind ignorance, here at PD.

Well - there seems to be a huge number of us with blind ignorance. I suppose it's impossible it's the other way around.

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 02:50 PM

Arenas did nothing illegal, had no weapons, no drugs, and his late night altercation was during the offseason.

I have not defended Jax at all, but your post is full of so much homerism isnt disguisting.

Jax showed horrible, horrible "judgement" that night, but that is no illigal. If makeing bad decisions was illigal, then half of the US would be in prison.

Was Jackson defending himself? Check.
Was the gun registered? Check.
Did he attack someone? Nope. Check.

So tell me, what part of what Jax did was illigal?

ajbry

10-08-2006, 02:52 PM

Well - there seems to be a huge number of us with blind ignorance. I suppose it's impossible it's the other way around.

How so? Jack did nothing illegal and was the victim. Seems pretty simple to treat him as such.

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 02:56 PM

I've never once said Jax did anything illegal. Sorry. Look at my posts, NEVER.

But neither did Arenas.

And Arenas was defending his friend and teammate, just as good as defending urself IMO.

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 02:57 PM

How so? Jack did nothing illegal and was the victim. Seems pretty simple to treat him as such.

Maybe the blind ignorance that Jackson did NOTHING WRONG.

He did nothing illegal, he WAS showing bad judgement however.

ABADays

10-08-2006, 02:59 PM

How so? Jack did nothing illegal and was the victim. Seems pretty simple to treat him as such.

Amazing to me how people just don't get that for the big bucks comes responsibility.

ajbry

10-08-2006, 03:08 PM

I understand that Jack did not make a great decision. However, neither did our starting PG, our highly-touted backup SG, and a scrub who some people seem to like.

Jack was certainly not the ringleader of the operation, he was just hanging out with his teammates. I can't say I agree with their choices that night, but the actual altercation (the only aspect of controversy) pins absolutely no blame on Jack.

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:16 PM

I can't say I agree with their choices that night, but the actual altercation (the only aspect of controversy) pins absolutely no blame on Jack.

You don't know that!!!! You weren;t in the club, you don;t know how it started, you don't know what was said!!!!!

Jax COULD be to blame.

But you DO know that if he wasn't in a seedy strip club at 3 AM then this wouldn't have happened.

Anthem

10-08-2006, 03:20 PM

Maybe the blind ignorance that Jackson did NOTHING WRONG.

He did nothing illegal, he WAS showing bad judgement however.
As was Arenas.

Remind me again what we're arguing about?

RamBo_Lamar

10-08-2006, 03:21 PM

Amazing to me how people just don't get that for the big bucks comes responsibility.

So true. And that includes the responsibility to not continue the pattern
of "knuckleheadedness" we've put up with over the past couple years.

These are young men with alot of testosterone, alot of money, but still also
have alot of learning to do. When they have an employer like the Pacers who
is good to them, and pays them very generously, they would be wise to bend
over backwards to never put them, or themselves in an awkward situation.

If some of the players refuse to get this simple concept, then it's just a
matter of time before another incident occurs.

I really hope and pray for these guys that nothing else bad happens and
we can go through a successful season without any more negative
controversy. For that to happen though, the players have to really want
that, and realize the true meaning of "It's up to us".

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 03:25 PM

I've never once said Jax did anything illegal. Sorry. Look at my posts, NEVER.

But neither did Arenas.

And Arenas was defending his friend and teammate, just as good as defending urself IMO.

Right, and Jack was defending his life........

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:26 PM

As was Arenas.

How did Arenas show bad judgement?

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:27 PM

Right, and Jack was defending his life........

Yes he was. But he could have avoided it all by going to a better place to ummm "enjoy himself"

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 03:28 PM

As was Arenas.

Remind me again what we're arguing about?

QFT

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 03:29 PM

Yes he was. But he could have avoided it all by going to a better place to ummm "enjoy himself"

I never denied that....

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 03:30 PM

"You can't arrest me. I'm a basketball player. I play for the Washington Wizards and I'm not going to leave my teammate."

Yeah, its shows real good judgement to say that phrase to a LEO.....

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:32 PM

Wasn't it reported that those weren't the exact words of Arenas?

vapacersfan

10-08-2006, 03:35 PM

Wasn't it reported that those weren't the exact words of Arenas?

Kind of like how it was reported that the media mis-reported the initial story calling it a hit and run?

Robertmto

10-08-2006, 03:47 PM

I never made any points pertaining to that. I said Jax shouldn't have been there, period.

ajbry

10-08-2006, 04:40 PM

I never made any points pertaining to that. I said Jax shouldn't have been there, period.

It was an afterparty to a concert. Tins went. Marquis went. Snap went.

Jack DID NOT choose the venue in which to go to for the afterparty. Get the damn facts straight and stop making a fool of yourself son.

Lord Helmet

10-08-2006, 04:45 PM

As was Arenas.

Remind me again what we're arguing about?
:laugh:

Exactly.

imawhat

10-08-2006, 05:27 PM

Some of us don't expect any apology from the team. This mob mentality, and specifically the "anger" is disgusting.

Some of us do.

I think the choices made by the players and the unabashed support/reinforcment they receive for it is disgusting. I feel the same way about the position the players put the organization in, and the lack of response from the organization as the FanJam approached. I hope Larry's in there making an apology right now.

Jermaniac

10-08-2006, 05:34 PM

I have not defended Jax at all, but your post is full of so much homerism isnt disguisting.

Jax showed horrible, horrible "judgement" that night, but that is no illigal. If makeing bad decisions was illigal, then half of the US would be in prison.

Was Jackson defending himself? Check.
Was the gun registered? Check.
Did he attack someone? Nope. Check.

So tell me, what part of what Jax did was illigal?VA dont even argue with the idiot, the only reason he is on here is because he wants to stir up trouble between Pacers fans, anytime something close to trouble happesn with the Pacers he is on here telling us how the Pacers are ****.

3,000 posts on a Pacers board by a Wizards fan, step your life game up.

ChicagoJ

10-08-2006, 05:42 PM

I understand that Jack did not make a great decision. However, neither did our starting PG, our highly-touted backup SG, and a scrub who some people seem to like.

I hope I've been clear that I'm mad at all four players equally.

Of course, I've never like SJax's game - even prior to his joining the Pacers - so I never wanted a trade for him and I've wanted him gone for a long time. This is just a drop of water in the ocean as far as he's concerned.

Tinsley - I've spent a lot of time defending him, primarily because we've got not other decent option at PG. But if he's made the scapegoat for this and we struggle through a 25-win season with Saras as our PG then right now I'm okay with that if we're ridding ourselves of players that would rather be in a strip club at 3am during training camp than preparing for the upcoming season.

Daniels and Snap might get "first offender" leniency. Or they might not.

grace

10-08-2006, 08:01 PM

Remind me again what we're arguing about?

I don't even remember anymore.

Wake me up when this place stops being the spitting image of RATS.

:goodnight

ChicagoJ

10-08-2006, 10:54 PM

Fair enough. Let's make it an even deal. Wake me up when this team stops being the spitting image of the JailBlazers.

naptown

10-08-2006, 11:32 PM

Fair enough. Let's make it an even deal. Wake me up when this team stops being the spitting image of the JailBlazers.

That's not a fair account Jay. How many off court problems have the Pacers had? This is the only one that comes to mind. So I dont know how you can compare that to several seasons of repeated off court issues.

ChicagoJ

10-08-2006, 11:41 PM

Where do the Ron vs. JO lockerroom fights qualify, on court or off court?

Okay, though, who cares.

We're as undisciplined as the JailBlazers, no matter where you draw the line. In fact, we're probably more undisplined than the JailBlazers because at least Mighty Mouse and 'Sheed had decent basketball IQs.

naptown

10-08-2006, 11:50 PM

Wow Jay... with every post you make I lose more and more respect for you.

You at least used to state some valid reasons for your stance on things.... since this happened all you do is spout grossly biased rhetoric and put a spin on things a politician would be proud of. Go be a Bulls fan.

grace

10-08-2006, 11:58 PM

Where do the Ron vs. JO lockerroom fights qualify, on court or off court?

Until that actually gets reported in the media and not just on the internet it never happened.

Wow Jay... with every post you make I lose more and more respect for you.

You at least used to state some valid reasons for your stance on things.... since this happened all you do is spout grossly biased rhetoric and put a spin on things a politician would be proud of. Go be a Bulls fan.

I might have agreed with you if you hadn't told him to be a Bulls fan. :tsk:

ChicagoJ

10-09-2006, 12:43 AM

Why, because I'm beyond pissed off at this team?

We already covered this, I'm not going to find another team to cheer for.

But at the end of last season I was ready for the team's management, coaches, and players to all be changed.

And I haven't really bought into the hype and advertising, either.

But we haven't even played a single preseason game and we've got the same people making bad decisions and the same lack of discipline.

Its shameful.

And yet I'm losing credibility because I'm pissed off at a team that's sacrificed all its goodwill? That's silly.

Robertmto

10-09-2006, 01:05 AM

It was an afterparty to a concert. Tins went. Marquis went. Snap went.

Jack DID NOT choose the venue in which to go to for the afterparty. Get the damn facts straight and stop making a fool of yourself son.

Jack DID choose to go there. Ws he forced to attend? I said nothing that was a non fact

Jose Slaughter

10-09-2006, 01:06 AM

Larry Bird should be ashamed of himself.

All that talk turned out to be just that, talk.

3rdStrike

10-09-2006, 03:19 AM

Wow. I'm sure I'll get my wrist slapped for writing this, but you are an immature, ignorant fool.

Nothing like self-indictment. Ironic that not only did you attack me, unprovoked, thereby proving your own ignorance and immaturity, but you didn't even provide a rebuttal. :laugh:

Keep it moving!

naptown

10-09-2006, 05:36 AM

Why, because I'm beyond pissed off at this team?

We already covered this, I'm not going to find another team to cheer for.

But at the end of last season I was ready for the team's management, coaches, and players to all be changed.

And I haven't really bought into the hype and advertising, either.

But we haven't even played a single preseason game and we've got the same people making bad decisions and the same lack of discipline.

Its shameful.

And yet I'm losing credibility because I'm pissed off at a team that's sacrificed all its goodwill? That's silly.

No Jay, you have your right to be pissed. I dont have a problem with that at all. Trust me, I aint been too happy with the last two years either.

But as I said, you have been very biased and have put a spin on almost every aspect of this situation. I just thought you were better than that.

As a wise Buddhist once said, Everything we encounter in this world with our six senses is an inkblot test. You see what you are thinking and feeling, seldom what you are looking at.

DisplacedKnick

10-09-2006, 08:42 AM

Larry Bird should be ashamed of himself.

All that talk turned out to be just that, talk.

Hasn't yet. I'd say you have another 3 weeks to make a final judgment on that.

ABADays

10-09-2006, 09:47 AM

Why, because I'm beyond pissed off at this team?

We already covered this, I'm not going to find another team to cheer for.

But at the end of last season I was ready for the team's management, coaches, and players to all be changed.

And I haven't really bought into the hype and advertising, either.

But we haven't even played a single preseason game and we've got the same people making bad decisions and the same lack of discipline.

Its shameful.

And yet I'm losing credibility because I'm pissed off at a team that's sacrificed all its goodwill? That's silly.

For what it's worth you haven't lost any credibility with me.

McKeyFan

10-09-2006, 11:55 AM

For what it's worth you haven't lost any credibility with me.

Ditto.

It's interesting the clear divide on this board.

I see it like the Dad who's had enough and the loving Mom who thinks Johnny, with the piercings and Goth hair and hateful talk and school suspensions and ungrateful attitude and petty thefts and cruelty to his sister should NOT be grounded, just because he came in late last night smelling of pot was arrested and let go by the police for getting in a fight.

Mom pleas for Johnny: there's no clear evidence that THIS TIME he was wrong. He was victim. For solid evidence, Johnny said so.

Dad is fed up.

That's how I see this divide, imo.

grace

10-09-2006, 12:52 PM

Hasn't yet. I'd say you have another 3 weeks to make a final judgment on that.

Actually I think he probably has until the trade deadline, but unless Stephen pulls an Artest and says "trade me I can't play here" nothing is going to happen.

grace

10-09-2006, 12:53 PM

Ditto.

It's interesting the clear divide on this board.

And nobody is changing their opinion so why keep arguing?

Putnam

10-09-2006, 01:23 PM

And nobody is changing their opinion so why keep arguing?

Well.... because there is such a thing as cooling down and reaching common ground. Plus the fact that there is a lot less disagreement than there seems to be, despite the rage on both sides.

Jackson's supporters have repeated over and over again that the man was under attack and had a legal right and an urgent need to defend himself. You know what? That is true.

Whatever happened before they stepped outside, the moment the car started zooming at Jackson, he was in danger and needed to do what he could to protect himself. I can admit that, and I expect the other "haters" can admit it as well.

But the "haters" have a point, too. The four players involved in the incident made some bad decisions leading up to the moment. I would hope even Jackson's strongest supporters can admit that. Rather than argue that the gun was legal, or that the party was private or that Club Rio is or isn't sleazy, I would hope Jackson's supporters could say, "Given how it turned out, it would have been better if they'd stayed at home."

CableKC

10-09-2006, 01:25 PM

I've lost track....has there been any official statement from Bird since more of the facts have arisen about the incident?

It would seem that how TPTB respond based off of Reports that SJax and company appear to be the "victims" in the incident ( SJax defending himself after being run over, the players leaving on their own accord to "apparently" avoid confrontation, etc. ), any further response from TPTB would set the tone for any further public perception.....whether they support their players "because they were defending themselves regardless of their surroundings" or "they are glad that they were not injured but should have exercized better judgement off the court".

CableKC

10-09-2006, 01:49 PM

Well.... because there is such a thing as cooling down and reaching common ground. Plus the fact that there is a lot less disagreement than there seems to be, despite the rage on both sides.

Jackson's supporters have repeated over and over again that the man was under attack and had a legal right and an urgent need to defend himself. You know what? That is true.

Whatever happened before they stepped outside, the moment the car started zooming at Jackson, he was in danger and needed to do what he could to protect himself. I can admit that, and I expect the other "haters" can admit it as well.

But the "haters" have a point, too. The four players involved in the incident made some bad decisions leading up to the moment. I would hope even Jackson's strongest supporters can admit that. Rather than argue that the gun was legal, or that the party was private or that Club Rio is or isn't sleazy, I would hope Jackson's supporters could say, "Given how it turned out, it would have been better if they'd stayed at home."

The Supporters view this as a situation where grown adults have the right to do whatever they want at whatever time they want after they punched their timecard out, that it was unclear who really owned the marijuana in Tinsley's car and that ( given the situation ) SJax clearly had a right to defend himself.

Where as Detractors ( I don't like the word "Haters" ) look at this as a situation ( despite all of the above reasons ) as another example where "better judgement" could have avoided all of this which has led to the "bad PR" that this Organization is trying to avoid.

For the die-hard PD / IndyStar Forum posters....I am guessing that its pretty "Cut and Dry"...where we fall on one side or the other. But for the regular fan that keeps track of the Pacers from time to time ( but not as fervorishly as us ) and goes to buy tickets to see games every so often ...I can see how some could see this as yet another reason to be turned off by this team.

I wonder if this is how TPTB are viewing the whole incident. Its hard to see any "gray" area in this. Despite all the facts that appear to be coming out where "SJax and Company" appear to be the victims in all this.....I still see overall Public reaction to this simply as "negative PR"....something that we all know that TPTB are trying to avoid.

DisplacedKnick

10-09-2006, 02:10 PM

And nobody is changing their opinion so why keep arguing?

For me, because otherwise I'd have to think about the Knicks and that's just too damn depressing.

Harddrive7

10-09-2006, 02:15 PM

Does anyone remember the days when we had the likes of Dale, Antonio, Reggie, Jax, Chris Mullen...

Mature veteran players to take the new guys under their wings and show them the right way to do things on and off the court?

We don't have those type of mature players anymore, what would you expect to happen with these young guys with pockets full of cash?

Black Sox

10-09-2006, 02:20 PM

Well - there seems to be a huge number of us with blind ignorance. I suppose it's impossible it's the other way around.

ABADays, you of all people should not be acting like this. If you recall when the pacers were at their best (and of course their best players of all time) the players got into fights all the time on and off the court. And lets not forget they partied like rock stars every night.

Everyone is to judgemental these days. People need to move on from what happened.

Since86

10-09-2006, 02:21 PM

Does anyone remember the days when we had the likes of Dale, Antonio, Reggie, Jax, Chris Mullen...

Mature veteran players to take the new guys under their wings and show them the right way to do things on and off the court?

We don't have those type of mature players anymore, what would you expect to happen with these young guys with pockets full of cash?

Dale was involved in a training camp incident involving a strip club in Orlando in 1999.

As you were saying?

Not to mention him being stun gunned by police earlier this year.......

EDIT: Remember AD was also suspended last year for entering the stands as well. Not that big of a deal, but the Player's union pres. should know that it's not accpetable behavior.

EDIT2: Let's also not forget the many rumblings about Reggie and his cheating, which lead to the divorce from his wife. I don't call cheating on your spouse the "right" thing to do.

DisplacedKnick

10-09-2006, 02:25 PM

Does anyone remember the days when we had the likes of Dale, Antonio, Reggie, Jax, Chris Mullen...

Mature veteran players to take the new guys under their wings and show them the right way to do things on and off the court?

We don't have those type of mature players anymore, what would you expect to happen with these young guys with pockets full of cash?

LOL - I don't mean to make fun but my image of DD showing players how to "do the right thing off the court" may be a little different than yours.

Let's just say that pretty much whenever I saw him out at night he didn't leave alone - and didn't seem to have a lot of repeats either. His rep around town about the way he treated women wasn't very good (not from the female perspective anyway).

Antonio's an entirely different story BTW.

Harddrive7

10-09-2006, 02:29 PM

Dale was involved in a training camp incident involving a strip club in Orlando in 1999.

As you were saying?

Not to mention him being stun gunned by police earlier this year.......

As I think that you get my point...

It's a maturity thing. No one on our team has it or has had it since Reggie left. We have no one on our team that can show these younger players the right way to do things.

This does not incluse DA for obvious reasons.

Since86

10-09-2006, 02:32 PM

As I think that you get my point...

It's a maturity thing. No one on our team has it or has had it since Reggie left. We have no one on our team that can show these younger players the right way to do things.

This does not incluse DA for obvious reasons.

No, I really must be missing your point.

I thought you were saying that the Pacers needed mature players like Dale, AD, Reggie, Mark Jackson, and Chris Mullin.

The Dale incident showed that even though he's "mature," he was still caught up in the middle of a strip club incident that happened to be during training camp.

Either "mature" people make mistakes, if you're saying DD is mature, or he's not mature and was a bad example.

If Dale is the mature player you want the young ones to learn from, then it looks like they took his lessons to heart.

Harddrive7

10-09-2006, 03:04 PM

No, I really must be missing your point.

I thought you were saying that the Pacers needed mature players like Dale, AD, Reggie, Mark Jackson, and Chris Mullin.

The Dale incident showed that even though he's "mature," he was still caught up in the middle of a strip club incident that happened to be during training camp.

Either "mature" people make mistakes, if you're saying DD is mature, or he's not mature and was a bad example.

If Dale is the mature player you want the young ones to learn from, then it looks like they took his lessons to heart.

Need a split hair icon.

Ok, take Dale out. Now do you get my point? I lumped him in there with that particular group of players.

Since86

10-09-2006, 03:10 PM

That's why I included AD's suspension, and Reggie's offcourt problems.

ChicagoJ

10-09-2006, 04:52 PM

Not to mention that as a younger player, Mullin was an alcoholic.

Post-rehab, however, he was always considered "mature" and "responsible".

Maybe there's hope for some of these guys... if they get the the type of help they need.

But right now, the Pacers seem (publicly, at least) content to let the players continue to make bad decisions and deal with the consequences, unable to connect the dots. After all, its their right as adults to make whatever bad decisions they want.