Richard Nisley has said that loft is not an accurate method of measuring the warmth of down insulation, and has provided information and data which appear to support the assertion. BPL seems to think otherwise: are there any position statements, rebuttals, etc which explain why? (This point is frustrating given BPL's stated commitment to the scientific/objective method.)

Whatever the case, thanks for the article! Of course, BPL continues to be a wonderful resource, whether or not it's "perfect."

How well do each of these hold the back of the waist when you sit down? That is one of the issues we are trying to solve in our down pants. (I've currently decided that this is just perfectionism since no pants I've seen really stay put. Not a problem with most jackets anyway...)

Here in Michigan I wear the MontBell Down Inner Pants in early spring and late fall and they work well. (In the winter months MontBell Down Inner Pants with Icebreaker 200 Long Johns.) The two variables to keep in mind for warmth: sleep system (what is over you, on you and under you) and your physical state. Below are Nunatak’s Pants and Knickers for comparison…..super equipment for cold sleepers and cold weather.

To further explore my question that I posed to Will, "have you made any *warmpth tests using the Cocoon UL 60 pants as a comparison, to the three down pants you currently reviewed?”..... He replied he had not. Still interested in an answer to my question I communicated with Richard Nisley to see if he could give some insight or a definitive answer to this question. His reply to me is as follows. Richard also has presented some data concerning other down pants alternatives that expands this *warmpth question for those of you that are contemplating winter camping and are thinking about expanding your winter wardrobe for next year.

I thought I'd share some helpful information I got from www.e-OMC.com.

The helpful customer service rep (Nolan) measured the WM Flash pants and recorded:

Small:inseam: 27.5 incheswaist: 28-31 inches

Medium inseam: 29 incheswaist: 31-33 inches

As the BPL article mentions, these are pretty short legs. I wonder if they are intentionally short so they don't interfere with boots and/or so the down doesn't sneak out the bottom of your pants and get wet.

Based on this article, I'm disappointed with the Flash pants. They came in way over the weight spec (8.4oz vs. 6.5oz listed on WM's site) and with a poor fit, so now I'm left choosing between the less lofty Montbell ones, or settle for poorly fitting and unnecessarily heavy WM ones. I was hoping to get loftier WM down pants for the same weight and price as the Montbell ones but I guess I'm going with Montbell. e-OMC.com has the Montbell's on for $125 with free shipping right now.

I really enjoyed the scope of this article.I have a pair of the older style Montbell pants. I'm not doing any extended cold weather trips in frigid weather, so taking an extra pair of long johns or fleece pants, or both, is not beyond reason for me.I appreciate the very light weight of the Montbells and, as Will points out, they work very well for the typical spring, summer and fall outings in the NW.

I have owned my pair of Montbells for about 4 years and can attest to their utility in most 3 season conditions. They have held up remarkably well for such thin fabrication. I usually use a pair of woolies top and bottoms when wearing both the down pants and the UL jacket and then put on my loose fitting trail pants and my Patagonia Dragonfly windshirt over them. This 3 layer combo has kept me warm sitting around camp down to about 20 degrees. I have been able to keep this sedentary position for as long as several hours while I read or listen to audio books with no discomfort. It also allows me to pack my light MOntbell SS #4, which is fairly accurately rated to about 35 degrees, and sleep comfortably down into the 20s using my downmat 7 shorty for a pad. Developing a complete sleep system really keeps the weight down and provides tremendous flexiblity especially while you are actually out on the trail.

nunatak has a nice upcharge there. geez. I have hiked in weather down to 15F and never needed down pants. Used icebreaker 200's + my suplex convertibles, thick wool socks + x-static liner. If i had to i could layer on my rain pants for extra warmth. I would use down pants in camp if i was to use them. But in those kind of cold conditions, once i get to camp, in a matter of minutes im wrapped up in a pad, tq, and uq in my hammock anyway. I have a another pair of icebreakers as well, 150wt bottoms. i guess if i had to i could layer those over my 200's for even more warmth.

Ben from GooseFeet (http://goosefeet.webs.com/apps/webstore/) made me a custom pair of down pants which I'm pretty excited about. Ben made them to my specifications and in my color choice with 800+fp down and Momentum fabrics. They were just sewn today so I won't have them for a couple weeks, but the specs look great.

According to Ben, they weigh 206g (7.26oz) with a generous 3.2oz of down. These pants are a custom fit, but they are roughly size medium. 44% of the weight of these pants is the down which is a significant improvement over the pants is this review (MB = 29%, PHD = 32%, WM = 24%).

I imagine Ben is interested in selling more of these, so give him a shout if you're interested.