High End Luxury Cars

Comments

bring the Century brand over or further extending the Lexus line upwards while dropping the ES.

I have my doubts on that, although who can say for sure.

I suspect that it is more likely that we will see the new upcoming LF-type super car will just further expand the top end, and we will continue to still see the ES at the low end. But that's just how I see it at this point.

I may be mistaken on this, but I thought it was always included here. Just few pay much attention to it any more not long after its initial introduction. Infiniti's 3-car line up is G, M and Q, from bottom to the top, in that order, roughly matching 3, 5, 7; C, E, S; IS, GS, and LS.

I say no to the E class. I don't feel that it's more luxurious over the A6, nor do I feel like it's a better performer than the 5 series. If their is another Benz that belongs here I think it's the CLK 500. But in spite of the dictionary I think that it doesn't belong here. I won't kick and scream if it's added however :blush:

Q base variant is 200" long and motivated by a good-sized V8 developing 340hp. It's also the top of Infiniti's line up.

E class variants start at a 1.8L inline4 propelling a car 190" in length. Even the base variant in the US is most comparable to Infiniti M35, which is 192" in length and powered by a 275hp V6, compared to E350's 190" and 265hp V6.

OK. Good enough. But, I'll NEVER agree with your portrayal of the E. I'm fine that it might not qualifiy to be a HELM here. No problem. But your view of the E is not nearly like mine, IMO. Let's just leave it at that.

IMHO, it will, just like the old S430 (and S320). The industry has been body-centric since the tremendous BMW marketing success of the 80's with its 3, 5, 7 "same sausage in different sizes." Before that, MB used to rate cars by engine size, like 300 series, 500 series, 600 series, etc. It has all but abandoned that approach.

I know that's what he did. That's why I said I assumed he meant "CL" not "CLK" It's just not polite to point out typos or obvious reference errors when the person can be understood to mean something else. So I addressed CL without pointing out the typo. CL is the top of the MB's coupe range; CLK is entry-level coupes. MB's naming convention here is very confusing (K means Kuntz, or "short", just like SL vs. SLK).

I did not try to address whether you were being polite or not. What I said was, after being presented with the question whether CLK was HELM, instead of officiously admonishing dhamilton on the correct candidate should have been CL, I simply assumed that he/she had CL in mind (to be polite, and frankly I think he/she probably did have CL in mind). Whether you want to officially correct him/her is none of my business. I know the difference between CL and CLK quite well myself, thank you very much; at no time did I type incorrectly on this one. But for non-german speaker not knowing what K stands for, it can be confusing.

I remember four or five years ago there was a big discussion between almost everyone vs Merc on the Lexus and was it even a HELM car or not...Slowly Merc threw in the towel, but really put up a fight....It was back then that my admiration for Merc grew as he really knew his fact and figures--and was stubborn as could be..Today there are quite a few imo who are right up there with him...Tony

Not sure which discussion that was, but I've never, ever thrown in any towels anywhere concerning Mercedes or MB vs. Lexus. If anything certain Lexus defenders have left, quit, gave up since 1999, not me. This debate about whether or not a E is a HELM just doesn't interest me enough to really get involved.

It was that bunk about the LS430's sales and what it sold for which didn't make it a HELM IMO and I still stand by that belief. Now the car itself was a cut above the E/5/GS/A6 class in terms of space/luxury though it wasn't nearly as sporty, but it wasn't supposed to be. Maybe that is what I "gave" some on, the LS430 being a HELM by specification?

I make mistakes often, and I admit that quite freely. But I honest did not make mistake on this one. If you don't believe me, go back a few posts and see that it would simply make no sense if I were talking about CLK instead CL. Once a person knows what the K stands for in German, like I do, there's no reason to make mistake or confuse the two. The problem with MB marketting is that they assume all the non-German speakers would bother to learn the German word; otherwise it makes absolutely no sense, the longer name stands for a shorter car :-)

Recent reviews from Automobile Magazine and Road and Track are both positive.

Automobile: "The new LS460 is not just the peer of the leading trio (BMW 7 Series, Mercedes Benz S-Class, Audi A8), it provides a new benchmark for the category."

Road and Track: "The best LS yet. A sleek, supremely appointed. luxuriously outfitted freeway flier."They qualify that, however, with it "is not a numbers car."In other words, you do much of your driving in a straight line and you want to do it in style, have we got the car for you.

On my monthly perusal of the Lexus LS460 threads, seems like a lot of unhappy campers complaining about lack of rear seat legroom and a poor left foot driver's foot well.One guy got so incensed, he plans to measure the latter area with a tape measure!

Cool. I was waiting for someone to suggest the "other" Mercedes. For me, without the E, the next one is easy . . . the CLS!!!!!

I mentioned the CLS like two days ago!

Quoting myself: "Now if you wanted the CLS on this board, that would be a little more reasonable. Its not quite S-class level, but its definitely above the mid-lux E, 5, A6, M, GS, RL, STS, S80, S-type class. The Audi A7 and BMW 650 could also be included."

There are still equipment differences, for instance AVS and VGRS on the 450h, not available on the 350.

I'll take a 400lb. lighter car over one with a "sport" suspension setting. The Lexus version of active body control might make the 450h feel a bit less like the overweight porker it is, but thats going to take it up to a cool $65K.

I really don't think that it is important whether or not we officially expand the number of HELMS here.

What is important is that our good host Pat has always given us leeway in the ones that we discuss here. You all know there has been a varied lot. Sometimes it is important to talk about other autos just for the sake of comparison.

I for one hope that the next "Q" will formally qualify. New competition will only help the others. Shoot, maybe it will become the new "benchmark" and take the title away from the new LS. (According to Automobile Mag)

But when I see big (like 10k) numbers being tossed about as an alleged "hybrid premium" I just like to try to set the record straight.

I agree with you, I was one of the ones saying that the "true" difference in cost between the RX330 and RX400h was not the $10K that it looked like. In this case though, it sure seems like a lot of money for the hybrid. Since AVS and VGRS aren't available as individual items its hard to gauge what their true cost is, but since those two items as well as upgraded wheels and brakes are available on the 460L for less than $3K, I have to assume they wouldn't be more than $700 a piece. Taking that adjustment out, its still $8.5K for less than 40 extra horsepower, or $10K for the hybrid plus those two questionably useful (especially for VGRS) extras.

Now if you wanted the CLS on this board, that would be a little more reasonable.

Very sorry I missed your post. Certainly, the CLS is reasonable.

Regarding the E, I was reaching a bit to see how far we could all go. It's not a problem that it doesn't fit in here, as the CLS most obviously does, and it has and will get some discussion now and then.