Just a thought.. iIknow we had talked a bit about the idea of doing something quite broadly in the gallery and in the wider forest community with maps/mapping...

One of my MFA students in Berlin, a very nice and very interesting/intelligent guy called Kruno Jost, does a lot of work in an around this field. He's very interested in maps of different kinds(social, spatial, cultural,informational) and to this end has created what you might call a template for an interactive project which people can take on board and 'run' in their own communities. It's kind of arty, kind of (h)activist and kind of a bit Dorkbot too.

it would be great if they had a web interface also so one could see all that has been created from previous installations, though whether people could have Write acces via the net would depend on the aims of the artist..

0 x

hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) | MilkMiruku

Aye something along the lines of the things and stuff wiki would be ideal for this kind of project.

I'm surprised there isn't an online record of all the different instances of the culturerobot project- for me the temptation to map the mapping -and so on- would be too great. I suppose the website does record this to some extent but not in the form of a map.

In fact, Martin used to have a Logos wiki set up - maybe this could be re-purposed? I've just checked the address I had and the site seems to be down, which is a shame.

The Culurerobot project seems to be situating maps as a more liberated form of recording and contextualising information, an alternative to hierarchy, linear narratives etc. Here the artist is placed as kind of halfway between creative, sociologist and anthropologist.

Which is one way of looking at things, but I'm also interested in ways in which maps and mapping have been represented in a more insipid sense. Baudrillard uses the phrase “The map precedes the territory” to describe his theory of simulacra, which I take to mean that the subject is always preceded by the language, structures, culture, practices, ideologies and any other number of social, economic and political constructs which determine their experience. So the map in fact prevents any experience of the territory and the similarity between the map and territory becomes inconsequential.

In that vein, it's interesting that there is quite frequently a large wedge of critical theory backing these projects up, perhaps it is only because the projects need to stand up as academic but it strikes me that it could be a classic example of the map preceding the territory-who thought it would be so difficult to talk about the everyday?

I can probably relate to this idea for having something like this in the gallery through being a pedestrian. I'm quite interested in psychogeography and am a lifelong practitioner of the drift. To me, Edinburgh is an ideal site for this type of engagement and i'm surprised that more of this kind of thing has not been more high profile here before, its always Paris, London, Paris, London... (of course that is not to forget the eminent 12 Gates of The City.)

I've been looking into the Edinburgh Exchange a bit- it's the collection of buildings around Lothian Road/Morrison Street that make up the bulk of Edinburgh's financial district- to me all the buildings look a bit alien to the rest of Edinburgh but have their own unifying aesthetic. Obviously the idea of Exchange means something else here, but might be interesting exploring this part of the city through an alternative perspective. (comparisons to the borg are too easy). ALso interesting that they planned to build an £80m extension but had to cancel because of the credit crunch.

I suppose all this is a bit abstract and not necessarily that helpful if we are trying to come up with a method for making the project happen.

One thing Martin mentioned a while back was the idea of using the gallery as a sort of travelagent- this really appeals to me- could this be a good opportunity to revive the idea of a misguided tour to Little Sparta?

it's interesting that there is quite frequently a large wedge of critical theory backing these projects up, perhaps it is only because the projects need to stand up as academic but it strikes me that it could be a classic example of the map preceding the territory-who thought it would be so difficult to talk about the everyday

good point !

i think the best of these projects about the everyday dont leave much for the academics . this is the terror embodied within the project . The after image not communicable within that environment only a simulacra . modified for consumption but never the thing itself . This is part and parcel of negotiation we must play slowly undermining all which hinders .

are we viewers or participants of the everyday ?

in regards to our project , i think it should be called or be part of the logos

i would also like see the use of the cafe space if possible . this would need a bit of planning , eg booking out it now .

also i guess we would wish to this to happen within the annual , riding with there promo . so we need to find when they are thinking of doing it .

with regards to podcasts(12 gates fo the city)/ digital forms . recently a show we had in the gallery also had a web site related to it , the artist said he didnt get many hits . Another example is the national gallerys of scotland has a podcast for the spain show in which next to know one knew about . They also one year had a bluetooth type promo going on which i think didnt work very well . BUt it was done in a very random way .

Interestingly the gap between the gallery and the web is large . one idea i have is to use bluetooth or wifi , so people can get media in the gallery . alot of people phones now capable of this .possibly more capable of bluetooth then wifi .

also a good web site for this project is needed . a wordpress blog would do . this should really be done soon

thank you Michael for introducing me to theforest bb. My name is Kruno Jost, based in Croatia. I am part of CR group that includes my dear friend Ricardo Palmieri from Brazil and many others that were part of CR development.

I will try to give overlook on all the posts that were following mikes suggestion for using CR as a potential project at theforest.

There is not a map of the mapping yet, yes, still to come, good point to work on. I understand completely discussion on map preceding the territory and everyday life and thank Stephan for pointing it out. Cant argue at this point. Except to say that CR became for me kind of vessel propelling me into everyday life: so there is a front end - an installation and there is whole world of events behind it. It is a pity this world was not recorded and explained. Maybe yet to happen?

Example is Manchester CR installation that in my eyes was there as a hub - it got around it people who were developing PD patch, people who filmed, people who edited, who mapped, people who wanted to talk about history of Hulme or personal history and we all mixed and exchanged our everyday. It could of been a dinner too, it could of been a party, but than it wouldn't involve FOSS exchange, kids learning how to film or make robots them self, underprivileged to get a chance to feel as a part of an event, etc. Beside this people CR also included usual structure of culture robots that came to observe.

As an idea: I would like to be a part of collaboration that is mapping something that is not a physical territory. Something in direction of Josh Ons work http://www.theyrule.net, but maybe on local scale?

hi guys,this CR looks really interesting. i also have a couple of people/works that i think might be really interesting for this, here are 2: - we have a guy David Berridge) with 'situationist' type 'scores' for us to interpret, maybe with him, for making work. The score reads really well, love the stuff. He wrote this article on scores (fluxus mainly): http://www.rsaartsandecology.org.uk/magazine/features/david-berridge--fluxus. There is also a new proposal for a 'wayward plant ' plant/weed adoption programme, they have done it all over the place, and its really nice project. These projects would be for us i think really good. David Berridge - this is his blog, http://moremilkyvette.blogspot.com/, i have the proposal/score we can look at . The 'wayward plant' work: http://waywardplants.org/history-of-the-registry/. The last they did it was in Barbican this summer, so there is a docu-trail of it (and a website). I already told them we would like to work with them ( as they could be a 'suitcase'), but i think they could be really good also with this 'mapping' project, as it has to do with moving and dislocating things and creating connections through material. And plants do not move, yes...!(...?...) So, a 'score' as a map, a 'registry' as a map. I also really like the idea of a 're-enactment' of what was done/suggested the situationists, their instructions, or 'scores', as it is a kind of 'detournement' already for the fact that doing it now is within a shifted context, and the artwork as a device wilI make different stuff visible because of that. could talk a lot about these and the kinds of structures/'maps' that they begin to build and the way they challenge that kind of 'mental mapbuilding process', like 'live navigation' in consequence of which certain stuff 'shows up' becomes meaningful and turns into material, which is what i am interested in. ( ah, my beloved immaterial architecture). so. absolutely would be good for annuale time.we could do 1 week shows and a couple of events/special days...? depending on our materials? ( I suppose some of the projects could run for longer and then culminate in the show...

the golden hour maybe interested in doing something too . old hat books are interested too . also it would be good to have a jiggery fuckery closing party .

things to think about how is the gallery space going to be used . can it be used for events combined with some kind of travel agency . this i feel should be the main hub for all info related to the events .

there is also the cafe space ., the hall , i quite like the toilet as a wee space for an exhibition .

I think having it for month with just ads in it could be a bit boring . It possibly our main resource and attraction And thinking about mirja question why would someone want to be a part of it is related to this . promo is not our strong point but the space is .

so some ideas ...

could we use the space as prelim in the first week as a introduction to maps . talks , crits and films all promoting what is to come next with giving some handle on how to grasp it . most of this would happen at night i guess .

then leading on ether events or exhibtions in the space itself thereafter . with the easier stuff at first and becoming more imperceptible by the end of the month . "festival to interval"

the wrapper for all this could still be a travel agent , the design opportunity of appropriation is pretty promising with travel agencies .

there also could be calls for submission based about this idea . eg do you want to do a talk about this ect .

definitely some great ideas for the use of space there- i imagine this willend up being informed mostly by the participants that aare involved, so at the mo we should push to get the blurb/look/name for the project so that we can begin discussing wuth folks.

I really like the look of the David Berridge stuff and the idea of 'the score' as a way of doing stuff.

Mike, could you email out the short paragraph from the meeting so that we have a complete distribution list to begin sending stuff back and forth?

Attached is a podcast of a talk commissioned by Frieze for the art fair, it is a performance lecture that broadly covers the idea of mapping/wandering etc. It's pretty good. The podcasts are here. Some good stuff, (esp. Sylvère Lotringer, founder of Semiotexte)i've downloaded a fair amount of them already and will probably have the lot eventually, let me know if anyone wants a copy without having to snooze through the download and i'll copy a disk.

DIY event EEII'09 is looking for people who would like to artistically experiment and collaborate on-line or f2f. All collaborations will take place between 12 h and 24 h at different locations in city of Cakovec, Croatia on 5th of December, 2009.

This is invitation for you to:

1. come to the event and work/experiment/collaborate/participate/co-curate together with local artist and musicians. There is no theme, and no competition, but we urge everyone to collaborate so that process becomes final. EEII'09 aspires to re-invent concepts of collaboration, change, exchange and participate, without closing this process in any specific media.

2. be part of the EEII'09 trough on-line networking and radical collaboration - send us your information package, act or react on somebody's package, on its content, pass it along, reshape it, send and receive, loop it, relate it to other package and create maps by putting packages in specific contexts, re-package the package, ...

i spoke with Duncan Shingleton, who works with RFID tags and he is interested to discuss possibilities about the mapping events. i told him that the next meeting is happening on sunday 8 november, his email address duncan(at)shingleton.org and his website http://www.shingleton.org. perhaps someone can contact him with the time etc... as i do not have this information since i wasn't going to be there.

the degree shows here at ECA seems to start at the beginning of May, with the Fashion Show on the 5,6 and 7 of May, then the Art & Design degree show seems to be on the week of the 10th of June. i personally do not see much point in trying to align the mapping events with the ECA degree show...

i spoke with Duncan Shingleton, who works with RFID tags and he is interested to discuss possibilities about the mapping events. i told him that the next meeting is happening on sunday 8 november, his email address duncan(at)shingleton.org and his website http://www.shingleton.org. perhaps someone can contact him with the time etc... as i do not have this information since i wasn't going to be there.

shit i forgot about this - has anyone been in contact with him yet?

what time are we meeting on sunday

so far i have done very badly on my action points- there is a load of stuff in this thread i need to revisit and catch up on...

To summarise the map project meeting the other day (these aren't quite minutes, but are heading in that general direction).

We decided to put togther a revised call out text (Mike to do) which would emphasise that we were happy to work with either fully formed proposals for projects or looser, proposals which might evolve through their interaction with us or other participants. Mike is also interested in taking on the role of facilitating cross-project mappings/interactions between different threads/projects (i.e. allowing them to map each other in some way)

It was also suggested that it would be good to have some kind of explanatory/introductory sessions before the projects run so that people can see what other people are doing or learn about the different processes being undertaken, and that it might also be useful to follow this up with a session of reflection/examination of the works undertaken afterwards

We thought that the project might consist of a mixture of:

Things happening (either in the gallery or somewhere else, either physical or virtual, or both),Writing, Exhibitions, Workshops, Talks, Cinema screenings, Publications and Stuff on the internet.

We also thought it might be good to come up with a provisonal name for the whole project for the next meeting, and that the aims of the project as a whole might be as follows:

1) To facilitate the sharing of different kind of mapping.

2) Tp provide opportunities for collaboration.

3) To have fun!

Date of next meeting : Sunday November 29th in the Gallery, 7.30 pm

Last edited by michaelbowdidge on Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:crap spelling as usual

the next meeting is on the 13th next sunday . we dont have a name yet as it was felt that since new people where coming to the meeting . we felt it better to discusse the project and other projects that may take place . The meeting is starting to taking a crit format . I find talking about stuff at a local level very useful and invertibly these discussion will help bring about a name and such.

on that note , it would be good to make a email list of people who have attended . and send out an invitation type thing for each meeting . so for instance the last meeting Kruno attended to talk about his project . this may attracted others to come .

martin

ps brainstorming for the name i like "drift" maybe a bit over used . "people your desert" a mis formed deluzional quote . and stolen from the capital punishment forum "Every moment of friendship is a refusal to organize"

ok, heres attached some text/questions to start thinking about maps, sorry if this is pretty brick-like, and i know mike is doing something, this is just to throw my 2pence in and get going, please tear apart cut paste and appropriate as you feel beneficial, i trust you help me with the brick-like effect.

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

The next map meeting will on the 7th January . we thought it may be an idea to go and see the paul sandby exhibition at the national gallery of scotland , we are going to meet at 5.30 outside the gallery at the mound, at the bronze map sculpture of edinburgh . The gallery is open till 7pm . then after we can go somewhere else to chat about other stuff .

its connection with our project is that paul sandby was one of the map maker , who was the first to map scotland after the act of union . I would also like to draw your attention to present day military mapping , by the Israel . This is nicely covered by the work of Eyal Weizman

"Weizman shows how Deleuze and Guattari’s notion of ‘smooth’ and ‘striated’ space helped the IDF explain to soldiers the concept of ‘inverse geometry’, the military manoeuvre of dynamiting pathways through an enemy’s domestic interiors to avoid the hazards of streets and other exposed urban areas. Taken out of their ethical/political contexts, the projects of Gordon Matta-Clark, Guy Debord , Georges Bataille and Bernard Tschumi have also come in handy as instruments of military propaganda. According to Shimon Naveh, ex-director of the Operational Theory Research Institute (an IDF think-tank): ‘We share more with architects; we combine theory and practice. We can read, but we know as well how to build and destroy, and sometimes kill.’

I like 'outwith', i didnt know its scottish!!also looked the def of 'drift; and really like it, as it refers to movement but also accumulations that result from that movement...what about just 'Drifts' - like actions (processes), and various forms of accumulations ( the work) ?

i have listened to it as i was not able to sleep and i don't know if it was about being awake at 5 o 'clock in the morning, or what it was... but still remembering the feeling i got by listening to it. its amazing podcast! first i thought its gonna be another of recorded and appropriated collage based sound tracks, but it is so delicate and so well done that one really flies away with the narrator. it gives a feeling of something much bigger and complex that just an art museum with historical art pieces. is like a walk into subconscious.