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I will agree that themeparks are not true MMORPG's, it is also my view.

They simply can't be because they cannot provide the undefined Adventure, which constitutes the basis of an RP Experience.

Themeparks are designed with a pre-defined experience, and that can be anything except a genuine Adventure. Which in my opinion accounts for the fact that people change games too often and do not stick with one for more than 3-6 months. And who can blame them? A themepark becomes boring after you seen the rides a couple of times, and it needs new attractions perriodically, something that Blizzard has done pretty well with WoW.

I am not sure on the other hand that Themeparks are dead, too many people have been accustomed to the experience that themeparks offer and too many people expect to have such an experience and associate it with the genre.

In order for it to change people need to be introduced to different experience, but herein lies the problem, not many (if any) will risk puting a product on the market without knowing if at least the investement will be covered.

It has become too much of a money gamble nowdays. And the Themepark formula, seems to at least provide some security. many here knew in advance that TOR would not last for long, but that did not matter to the investors, all they wanted was their money back with a profit on launch day, after that point, it is no longer their problem, the Production Dev team is charged with keeping the game going.

Of course, the markt is not only about Offer, it is also about Demand, and the Demand for change is slowly rising, it just has not reached a point where it would justify the risk of an investement yet.

But eventually it will, sooner or later we will be all enjoying a good Sandbox.

- Duke Suraknar -Order of the Silver Star, OSS

ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

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Originally posted by ZigZags

Theme Parks are not dead just look at all the people clammoring to play GW2 and that game is the epitome of Theme Park. People think they want a Sandbox MMORPG, but once they get there, get ganked and lose their gear, they quit and go back to Disneyland.

Just because the first sandbox MMORPG did this does not mean that sandboxes in general include looting of this kind. Further, the genre has not been evolved at all since 1997, and thus, there is plenty of room for improvement.

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Originally posted by Morv

Just because the first sandbox MMORPG did this does not mean that sandboxes in general include looting of this kind. Further, the genre has not been evolved at all since 1997, and thus, there is plenty of room for improvement.

i wouldnt go that far , there have been later sandbox mmos that were different

What we have now is a bunch of dungeon crawlers posing as Theme Parks which are posing as MMORPGs which we all know are Sandboxes.

/Agreed

A true MMORPG is a Sandbox.

/Agreed

A theme park is not and never was an MMORPG. They are a type of game unto themselves that have 0 to do with RPG. I shall call them a Massive Multiplayer Online Quest Grinders.

I find this to be an appropriate term, MMOQG, I have been referring to them as just online games for years now.

The genre fell even further into darkness with cross realms going from theme parks to Massive Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawlers.

I agree, developers are completely lacking perspective today... It's kind of funny. This is probably why we see such a huge influx of indie developers who are willing to give the middle finger to the status quo.

Hopefully this clarifies things so people on this site, a MMORPG site, can stop talking about all these silly non MMORPGs.

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Originally posted by thexrated

Themeparks are far from dead. People just change games more often than in the past, but today there is also more choice than few years back. I am not really expecting to stay with a themepark MMO for more than two to three months. Many of my gaming friends feel the same. Is it a bad thing? No, not really. I like the fact that there is choice.

Change in the social landscape in MMOs is also happening steadily. There are a lot more multigame and multiplatform guilds than there were few years back.

The pricing for these games is changing as well. More and more games launch with various B2P to freemium concepts. This is partly because companies recognise that, amongst other things, gamers like to try out new titles and different type of games.

I can agree with most of this except that "[It's not] a bad thing.".

The reason these games facilitate swapping so readily is because they've created an environment where you can reach and participate in entry-level endgame in a matter of weeks.

It's a bad thing that the games are so easy.

People get to endgame and they get bored. Raids and fights are fun the first few times you down a monster and then it's like ".. um... now what."

It's one of the reasons (among many) that I long for another party grinder. Every party could be fun, and could be very different from the last, even if you'd fought the same things in the last party. There was time to talk a bit between pulls, even to say things like "great group" whereas dungeon groups just want to get through the group. I know that, as a tank, if I stop to say something, some glass cannon runs past me, makes the pulls and calls ME bad if he dies before I can get within range.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

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In the spirit of the OP, I'd like to further this discussion with the following fact: sandboxes can't be MMORPGs because there aren't enough people in any of them to satisfy the "massively multiplayer" component.

I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

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Originally posted by WhiteLantern

In the spirit of the OP, I'd like to further this discussion with the following fact: sandboxes can't be MMORPGs because there aren't enough people in any of them to satisfy the "massively multiplayer" component.

The "massively multiplayer" part is the problem not the game... Just look at who the masses are ... tsk tsk tsk

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A theme park is not and never was an MMORPG. They are a type of game unto themselves that have 0 to do with RPG. I shall call them a Massive Multiplayer Online Quest Grinders.

The genre fell even further into darkness with cross realms going from theme parks to Massive Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawlers.

Hopefully this clarifies things so people on this site, a MMORPG site, can stop talking about all these silly non MMORPGs.

For ppl who still dont know,RPG means ROLLE PLAY GAME

Since theres nothing to rolle in a themepark its not a RPG,cant receive the name of RPG

OP is right

Bullshit. Ever hear of D&D, which is pretty much the grandfather of tabletop roleplaying? That was back when many of you were nothing more than a gleam in your father's eyes. That game was designed around these things called modules, which were self-contained story packs that provided a direction and frame of reference for players to roleplay within. A campaign would have been a collection of the packs and, if you had a half-decent DM, would have been interwoven into an ongoing narrative.

Roleplaying can happen in any environment and under any circumstances, so long as the participants agree to abide by the particular restrictions and rules that govern that environment.

Don't try to define roleplaying for anyone else when you clearly don't have a damned clue yourself.

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Originally posted by WhiteLantern

In the spirit of the OP, I'd like to further this discussion with the following fact: sandboxes can't be MMORPGs because there aren't enough people in any of them to satisfy the "massively multiplayer" component.

I guess that means SWTOR isn't an MMORPG either since that playerbase is shrinking faster than Costanza's junk after swimming in a pool.

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For those that are saying things like, "'m sick of these posts stop posting them" then commenting...the act of commenting in this post in an act of support for this kind of post, for that I thank you. Thanks for supporting these kinds of posts and bumping them up, I appreciate that. It's clear that despite your comments your inner self wants to support this type of thread, which is why you couldn't help but post in it. Again, I and the sandbox crowd thank you.

For those telling me I'm wrong, sometimes you hit a point in life where you look in the mirror, sometimes you don't like what you see. Look into that mirror and realize what we see are dungeon crawlers not MMORPGs. MMORPGS ARE sandboxes, they are virtual worlds to live in that the play crafts through provided tool. To deny this fact is to deny logic itself.

The reason the Sandbox MMORPG has, does, and will always trump the MMODC is this. Show a man how to use a tool and you learn nothing. GIve a man a tool, then stand back and learn from his innovation. Innovation is the genesis of creativity. Creativity is what separated us from the other animals. Without it there is no science, no invention, no supernatural speculation. Without it were just going through the motions. Sandboxes are creativity in one of it's most potent forms. Once you remove the creativity you have no invention, once you remove the consequence you have no risk, once you remove risk there is no thrill and that results in a 3 month grind followed by a cancelation which is why these non Sandboxes will always fail.

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people can hate on sandbox style mmos all they want.but ive played sandbox style mmos that have lasted longer then recent themepark ones

People can love sandboxes all they want, but I've played many themeparks that outlast their themepark cousins.

Neither argument means a thing.

your sig pretty much makes any opinion you have on mmorpgs invalid

i bet your the same type who goes to every mmo.and even though it doesnt look a thing like wow you automatically blast it and call it a wow clone.have fun being a part of the crowd thats ruining the mmo genre

What we have now is a bunch of dungeon crawlers posing as Theme Parks which are posing as MMORPGs which we all know are Sandboxes.

A true MMORPG is a Sandbox.

A theme park is not and never was an MMORPG. They are a type of game unto themselves that have 0 to do with RPG. I shall call them a Massive Multiplayer Online Quest Grinders.

The genre fell even further into darkness with cross realms going from theme parks to Massive Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawlers.

Hopefully this clarifies things so people on this site, a MMORPG site, can stop talking about all these silly non MMORPGs.

Hopefully this clarifies things.....It sure does. It clarifies that some people still cant understand the diffrence between opinion and fact. It also clarifies that some people still do not base thier opinions off of facts. This whole post can be argued with facts.

I'll pick one part and tear it apart so you get my point. You say "A true MMORPG is a sandbox". Ok well we have to take the MMO part out. Since all that means is Massivly Multiplayer Online. We are left with RPG. So you are saying a sandbox is the only true rpg correct? I think 100's of RPG's would like to chat with you. The Final Fantasy series is not an RPG based on what you said. Mass Effect, Zelda, Chrono Trigger, drakensang, KOTOR, Baldurs gate, Secret of mana, all of these non sandbox RPG's would like a word with you. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. Not Sandbox. You can roleplay in several of the themepark MMORPG's out there.

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people can hate on sandbox style mmos all they want.but ive played sandbox style mmos that have lasted longer then recent themepark ones

People can love sandboxes all they want, but I've played many themeparks that outlast their themepark cousins.

Neither argument means a thing.

your sig pretty much makes any opinion you have on mmorpgs invalid

i bet your the same type who goes to every mmo.and even though it doesnt look a thing like wow you automatically blast it and call it a wow clone.have fun being a part of the crowd thats ruining the mmo genre

My sig is sarcastic. I got sick of the 11 MILLION PEOPLE commercials.

I'm neither in favor of sandboxes, or themeparks, I just want a game that's more than a few days away from level cap and bored.

Also, I'm eager to see if Blizzard will deviate from the forumula that's served them so well or if Titan will be...perhaps WoW in a starcraft skin.

Hopefully it will be a game of great quality..but I have my doubts after D3 and the direction WoW has been going.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.