Worldie wrote:The biggest difference between a "casual raider" and a 13/13 hc is that the latter can adapt to pretty much every situation in few moments, including 3 turtles targetting the same person at same time. So the hc raider lives where the casual dies.

Can't argue with that. Along with the fact that the casual raid may well have a few new bodies each week, so added points for failure. Esp. on a fight like Tortos.

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

Teranoid wrote:Keep telling yourself that every person who doesn't agree with you is some sort of elitist.

not even going to comment on this, most because i dont want another flame war like i have been involved with

ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that

and klaud, was that a frustration that you cant get those, or that they exist? i love brownies and twinkies...but deep fried? my stomach is turning at the thought

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPSAmirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego. Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

To be fair, normal mode raiders who are treated like idiots are treated so for one of three reasons:

1) the one who is doing the treating is a troll and can rile people up2) the one who is doing the treating is an idiot themselves3) the normal mode raider is acting like an idiot

I can't even be qualified as a normal mode raider anymore at this time.

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.

Teranoid wrote:Keep telling yourself that every person who doesn't agree with you is some sort of elitist.

not even going to comment on this, most because i dont want another flame war like i have been involved with

ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that

99% of anything that can be "blamed" on bad RNG is solvable by better player reaction. In this instance it is simply "Channeling a spell and turtles coming to you? Stop channeling and move."

Bad RNGs that can't really be solved by an individual playing better is if a random target ability always targets one player preventing them from doing their job for a long portion of the fight. In this case however communication from that player is key for others to pick up the slack.

I'll gladly treat anyone that whines about bullshit like an idiot! But normal mode raiders tend to be the first to blame things other than themselves.

We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.

Teranoid wrote:Keep telling yourself that every person who doesn't agree with you is some sort of elitist.

not even going to comment on this, most because i dont want another flame war like i have been involved with

ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that (

You fucking drive me mental sometimes. Scratch that. All the damn time. And you can never see why people get so damn frustrated with you.

You are saying that it's RNG that turtles attack your priest. All three of them, at the same time. Implying that this happens every attempt, every time the turtles come out. If that's actually what's happening, then my god, the entire game must be against you and that's DEFINITELY bad RNG.

That's not what's happening. It might've happened once, maybe twice, and yet that's the excuse you choose to use to present the problem you're having on that fight. That's not the problem you're having on that fight. The problem you're having is that you use an excuse to explain why you're not playing better. You're being treated like an idiot because you're acting like one.

bldavis wrote:ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that

I don't feel like I've ever been treated like an idiot. Now, I've been treated like someone who had no idea what they were talking about, and surprise, it ends up usually well deserved.

I mean, sure, the answer regarding raid trouble of 'get better' can be said a bit harshly and yes, there are people who don't view normals as a challenge or 10 mans as enjoyable.

But you know what? Sometimes the answer *is* 'get better or deal with it'. When I got told that by the raid leader on my second night raiding with them, yeah it hurt. But it was also what needed to happen.

Teranoid wrote:Keep telling yourself that every person who doesn't agree with you is some sort of elitist.

not even going to comment on this, most because i dont want another flame war like i have been involved with

ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that

I'm not even going to deny it and I never have. Act like an idiot and get treated as such.

You ever wonder why you get in flame wars? It's because you, just like certain other people, can never just accept the fact that something might actually be your fault and instead whip up five million different excuses to somehow make yourself feel better about it and the minute someone says otherwise you paint some sob story about how everyone is so fucking mean to you. "It's not my fault! It's the game! I'm a victim of circumstance every time!"

You are so absolutely warped at times it's unbelievable. You love to refer to yourself as a casual which is absolutely wrong. Casuals don't blame every problem they have on the game. You're a whiner. Plain and simple.

Don't even bother responding to this post because I quite frankly don't care what you have to say anymore.

bldavis wrote:ill just say, on these forums, those that are only normal mode raiders are treated like idiots at times...try and deny that

I don't feel like I've ever been treated like an idiot. Now, I've been treated like someone who had no idea what they were talking about, and surprise, it ends up usually well deserved.

I mean, sure, the answer regarding raid trouble of 'get better' can be said a bit harshly and yes, there are people who don't view normals as a challenge or 10 mans as enjoyable.

But you know what? Sometimes the answer *is* 'get better or deal with it'. When I got told that by the raid leader on my second night raiding with them, yeah it hurt. But it was also what needed to happen.

i wasnt saying that fight is pure RNGnor am i saying that my guild is filled with alts of method or paragon...yes we can all get better

nor was i implying that the turtles thing was an every time.,...and honestly i am kinda confused how you could get that from an example?

yes i am a troll at timesyes i vent about suckage with my raid teams at times...i very rarely, and dont if i catch it myself, say it is NEVER my fault...hell there are many times i am frank and say sorry guys, i fucked up

sometimes i am clueless, and deserve to be called an idiot, i will admit thatbut on the majority of cases, the heroic hardcore raiders DO look down on those that raid just normals...there are many cases of people, even those that are generally nice and not a bitch, saying normals are for noobs and not real raiding.

so go ahead and ignore me if you want...you know fuck it, i think i am done posting here anywaysome of you will veiw this as a success, but all i have to say is get the F over your selves.

just because you are a heroic raider, doesnt mean yuou are a fucking god

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPSAmirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego. Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

I raid at a very similar level to bldavis (although at least his guild has got Ji-Kun down) and can relate to what he was saying about Tortos.

We got past Tortos no trouble at first, he scarcely registered as an obstacle. Then we lost a few of our raid team (a good dps when to a faster progressing guild) and have had to pug 2-3 extra to field 10 every week.

Suddenly, Tortos went from being no issue at all to being our stumbling block.

First, the pugs are nearly always melee, which leaves us with a bad comp - we could not do Tortos with just two ranged, it was beyond us. Three gives us a fighting chance but still is markedly harder than when we just had 1 melee as we did on progression.

Second, there was just a learning process - we raid once a week and it takes quite a time just to get to Tortos. If it's a new team member, whose never done Tortos outside of LFR, they tend to die early and often.

Third, we often lose our kicker to non-attendance and so someone else would have to learn the role.

Yes, we don't fail purely because of RNG but often it feels like that. The person assigned to kick the shell is gibed just before he's supposed to kick etc. I'm too busy chasing bats to have a good overview of why we fail, but it does feel random even though no doubt it isn't.

Things have picked up a bit as some of our PUG people have become semi-permanent additions to the team and we've found a good replacement dps to join the guild. But I can relate to bldavis's frustrations (this is the frustrations thread, right?) as I've gone through something very similar recently.

It's like the designed Wrathion for the tanking challenge to make all tanks feel what RLs feel about that guy who seems drawn to fire like a moth.

please, oh, please add an item that lets me pimp smack him. At least guildies I can yell at over vent for not moving out of the bad.

funny enough, I've also learned how much I don't actually read cast-bars anymore since I don't have DBM warnings for the 2 cast spells (and I don't wear my glasses since I usually don't need to read the fine print while gaming).

bldavis wrote:it depends on your ranged being able to get themselves to where the turtles stopped moving...i know we have had a lot of wipes due to turtles dying in weird places and having a train of turtles go through a healer while they were trying to use a cd (happens esp on our holy priest with prayer of healing)

1) Turtles dying in weird places can only be a problem if your ranged aren't positioning themselves to kick before it's time to actually kick. If they're standing still then going "oh shit, time to kick", it's their fault.2) You clearly do imply that multiple turtles hitting your Priest is a frequent problem. Which is most likely an issue of the Priest not watching out well enough.And then when people said most of the issues on Tortos are with awareness, you doubled down on the "3 turtles versus priest" scenario as if that was the only thing at issue.

spammed some 5mans with guildies,I'm 1 item away from bis (closing in on 550ilvl)and I'M just not able to hold ae aggro on anything proper.

In raid,200k vengeance,hammer of righteous hits for 11k,consec ticks 12k,etc.

WHY.

Comparing with monks is a jokeHeres a fun fact, at same ilvls, warrior Dragonroar does 30% more damage than Keg Smash.One beeing a nice Burst aoe threat, 1min CD) to make sure stuff will hit you for atleast a sec or two.The other beeing an 8sec CD that is a major part of your rotation, oh thats right, it also has a +threat modifier...

Oh yeh, monks have Spinning crane kick and Breath of fire so that they can use every GCD they have to make aoe damage, not even cleave, just pure aoe damage, doesnt care if its 2 targets or 10, will still do the same.

Also, at 200k vengeance, Consecration should atleast be doing double that, but its one GCD for easily + 100k damage on each and every target its hitting, yeh its not snap threat but its pretty good upkeep.

That said, tank threat has ALWAYS been an issue going into the later tiers of every expansion.They tune tanks to do shitloads of threat (and damage) at the start of expansions.But good gear does a lot for dpsers, but not even close to as much as for tanks, and they just end up outscaling us later on.

Paladins definately doesnt have that great aoe burst to initiate when there are lots of targets, but for 2-3 targets we are great.Warriors are fine picking up packs every 1min, but after that not as great, thunderclap does more bursty aoe than Consecration, but less overall damage.Druids and DKs have great CDs to make sure they can pick up adds every now and then atleast.Pallys still got Holy prism for 5 targets or Lights hammer for many targets.And if you are having issues keeping threat from people in 550gear when running 5mans, Im pretty sure whatever you were trying to keep threat on, is dead before it reaches the dpsers.But sure, it depends on what classes your dpsers are as well, if its Warriors leaping in with bladestorm, not even kegsmash can do shit about that.

I've been seeing that from the other side with my ret pally in LFG groups recently. Since I started getting him semi-decent LFR gear I frequently end up with random tanks who just can't seem to keep aggro. It hasn't really been too much of an issue as far as staying alive goes, but I do wonder how much stress I'm causing the random healers.

Yes, it's all awareness, but there is some RNG there.. mainly in tanks and kickers getting gibbed at the wrong time. Add in a casual raid group where you always have 2-3 new people, and it's a pain, as Econ21 mentioned on the last page. My 25-man is struggling with Tortos, mainly due to the 2 warrior tanks having issues with the bats, and with people having awareness issues. Last night we added in problems with DBM not displaying countdowns on breath correctly, or at all. I've also had to start dropping my traps to slow the turtles further back, because it's giving the tanks problems seeing the rockfall circles (and I suspect that some dps might be having problems with that as well).

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

Nikachelle wrote:The healers are probably loving it. Healing actual tanks in dungeons (when I quit) was so damn boring. Was far more interesting to heal dps posing as tanks.

The first time (at least this expansion) I (as DPS) ran into any tanks with threat issues was this past tuesday in pinnacle, where pretty much all of the DPS were riding the tanks in threat through entire encounters. I am pretty sure they even lost aggro a few times to one or two.

when I found myself even on the same page as their aggro bars in omen, I did a doubletake... because my ret DPS is pretty crappy.