The gaming group is moving to Pathfinder. I've never played Pathfinder before and it's been years since I played D&D 3.5. We're going to start with Kingmaker.

The first problem is that we only have 3 players. Player 1 is a melee fighter. Player 2 is a melee cleric. That leaves me to cover arcane casting, ranged combat, diplomatic encounters, and skills. Oh, and because we're a 3-person party, the GM has told me I probably need to "hit hard."

Problem number two is that I (allegedly) make concept characters with a very narrow focus and aren't good outside that very narrow area. I will admit to being very poor at optimization. (Truth be told, I SUCK at min-maxing.)

So, I need help in making a very hard-hitting generalist. I would like to at least cover ranged and arcane areas. Covering skills / people skills is a bonus.

The only non-core book allowed is Psionics Unleashed (and even that is borderline). Player's, Advanced Player's, and the Ultimate books are allowed. I have told my group that, due to their mocking, I will build something monstrous and broken. I don't think they believed me.

We're making characters on Friday. I am open to all suggestions. I have read most of the guides on the guide page.

I would suggest an Archeologist Bard. The Archeologist Bard will give you the best skill set of the entire game. They also replace performance with luck which will work even better. Instead of boosting your allies you get a bonus that can be used for just about anything Including attack and damage rolls. The bardic lore is going to mean you will have good knowledge's without having to invest a lot of skill points. Your spells will also be useful but more for control, information.

Don't look at it as you are playing a bard, look at it as you are playing a mystic rogue. In my opinion this is much better than a Arcane trickster. This also means that you will be able to better spread your points because you will not need anything really high. A Char of 16 should be more than enough.

I would not bother going the Arcane Archer, but rather stick with a straight bard. Play a human and use the favored class bonus for extra spells.

If you want to go for something a little more martial I would suggest an Urban Ranger. Go for a Switch Hitter as per Treantmonk's guide and you will do fairly decent.

Your group seems kinda... interesting. While they seem to play whatever they want, you have to make up for their shortcomings and cover everything else?

Anyways. I try to keep it spoiler-free (I GM a KM group).

I'll start looking at some basics. Three person group is below the assumed average of 4. I do not know at what point-buy you're creating PCs, but usually I would suggest picking a class which can bring a buddy to the table (is Leadership allowed at your table?).
KM as other APs is designed for a 15-point-buy PC group of 4 - if you're on a higher budget having one less person in your group will matter less, of course. So, a druid or summoning arcane caster come to mind. Mind you, social is big in KM, true. But so is wilderness.

The wizard class could give you a dedicated summoner and skills are there, too. Social situations might be handeled by investing in skills (Cha usually being a "dump stat" - though I don't like that concept myself).

Druid is also strong when summoning is needed, having a more combat-only oriented list of choices. Skills are decent.

Bard has changed completely. Don't try to compare it to D&D3.5. Just don't. Making an archer bard covers ranged, arcane and social. And it has become a really good class! The typical example is a lvl 7 bard which can cast haste via a meta magic rod of quicken spell (swift action), start inspire courage as a move action and casts good hope or heroism to give another bonus to to-hit and damage. All of the bonusses stack, giving you and your group something in the range of +5 to hit and damage and a bonus on saves! Just make sure to remind your group that it's your contribution making them shine.

As Mysterious Stranger pointed out I would not go into a Prestige Class. PF has succeeded in giving each and every class interesting abilities from level 1 to 20 (though you won't reach that in KM).

My favorite class has always been druid. That being said, when people accused the 3.5 druid of being unbelievably broken, my first thought was "how?"

The other players usually make solidly performing classical characters. I'm the guy in the corner who makes the crazy one-off useless character "because I have a cool concept." I've been challenged to make someone useful for once -- not my terms.

The bard thread didn't have good opinions of the Archaeologist bard because it gives up Inspire Courage. Is it worth the trade?

I forgot to add: we haven't decided on how we're going to generate stats. The last thing the GM said was that he was thinking of 2d6+6. Even though I roll horrible stats usually, I think I can get a pretty good array from that setup.

With your melee heavy group and you needing to provide damage as well, I would not give up Inspire Courage (it works with ranged weaponry as well - so archer is still an option).

Druid has been toned down a bit when compared to D&D3.5, but is still a powerful class. If you pick e.g. a large cat as companion or a wolf, you can have it contribute to melee while you (wildshape and) stay in the background buffing and controlling.

For starters I would suggest looking at the guides on these boards - Treantmonk has written guides to all three of your classes (what a coincidence) - but he covers only the CRB. You can find them here.

Another way to do it is to not try and cover all bases but instead reinforce the things the team is already decent at. The group is strong in melee, make it stronger still! Go for say a cavalier; they have to social skills to be party face, and it would make the group awesome up close. Another advantage is that when mounted it is much easier to run away in case a fight turns sour.

As a party of 3 the melee Cleric and yourself should probably have decent charisma. Consider the leadership feat. It will pad out your party and give you a few more player controlled characters filling certain rolls you won't need to worry about until the 2nd and 3rd modules.

Ideally if you wanted to take up the mantle of leadership some sort of Charisma based character would be ideal. I realize a conjuring sorcerer is harder to play then a conjuring wizard, but it less you be less mad (where prioritizing Cha as a Wizard would be both MAD and mad.)

An Inquisitor won't cover the arcane part, but he'll have good damage, good utility, many skills per level, the possibility to be the party face with some inquisition if need be, and be a jack-of-all-trades that doesn't suck.

An Inquisitor won't cover the arcane part, but he'll have good damage, good utility, many skills per level, the possibility to be the party face with some inquisition if need be, and be a jack-of-all-trades that doesn't suck.

I legitimately love Inquisitor...but are you implying Bards suck? Because they really don't. They're less personally and more group focused than an Inquisitor, but that makes them more effective, not less.

Bear in mind, all of this is without ANY non-all day buffs or magic items; actual numbers will be much higher.

You also have black tentacles for crowd control, are usually flying (thanks to overland flight), and can drop out evolutions on the fly. You also have SR of 20, making it very hard to hurt you. Usually you open combats with haste, and in dungeon setting spend the first 3 hours under your final extend for the day (heroism). In the event they get through SR, your saves are actually pretty good too.

Wis is 14 in all cases, not 12. Your ranged attack usually involves flying at the archers, at 7 you can sprout wings if necessary (lesser evo surge), at 7 you can also black tentacle the group if they are human-ish. Haste gets party to close quickly as well. At 10 with 50K your magic items should be:

If you arn't interested in playing a bard (I personally dont like it) you can also play a Magus with the Archer Archtype. That will give you a decent amount of damage and allow you to fill the arcane side of things.

Also they usually have plenty of skills considering their casting stat is Intelegence. Also remember that unlike 3.5 when you gain Intelegence bonus for 24 hours it retroactivly provides you with extra skill points, so as you level and pump up Intelegence you will get better and better in the skills department.

Also for any skills that the Magus lacks that you might need there are usually character traits that can provide you with said skill in class.

Just my 2 cents. Im also unfamiliar with Kingmaker, but do they have alot of traps in that game? You might need to run a class or archtype with Trapfinding.

I am wrapping up the last book of Kingmaker as the DM, and our bard became the king. We had a large party, instead of a small one, but inspire courage is ALWAYS good! As the party is smaller, Leadership would be less problematic in your game than in mine with so many players. My bard took it anyway, but simply made his cohort the spymaster of the realm and magic item creator for its rulers.

Kingmaker is unusual in that there are few dungeons. You have fewer fights per day and can generally "go nova" more than in a typical game. Also you have many fights in open ground - a mounted character is viable into high levels. My game's fighter/cavalier, on a vital strike charge with his lance, can crit for almost 300 HP, and deals a minimum over 100 at level 16.

Bard will be able to cover a lot of your bases very well. I second that you find Treantmonk's guide to Bards - he has an archer build there, if I recall correctly.

You'll be versatile rather than broken, but you'll be a solid member of the team.

I'd negative the barcher; they do not hit hard. It doesn't cover arcane, but if you want range, rangers are skill monkeys and the best archers in the game. Bards are pretty mediocre, especially in a 3-person party; and if you were asked to bring out the big guns but don't want to be as broken as a summoner, they do great. You can let the melee cleric be the "face"

Not really; a barcher will have Cha 14 and needs to be human to keep up with feats; a ranger will have Cha 7 and skill focus: Diplomacy (half-elf). If both have talent for +1 diplomacy (and class skill for ranger), the bard starts at +7, the ranger at +6. At 10 bard will be 16 Cha after magic item, ranger's feat goes to +6. So +18 Ranger, +17 Bard. It's easy to be a party face.

The bard archer suffers from the lack of improved precise; especially when the rest of the party charges forward the archery will be blocked a lot. Improved precise is huge, and bards don't get it until 15. Against humans (prevalent in this series), the ranger will outpace even further.

Besides, hopefully that melee cleric is an Evangalist so they already have bardsong covered :).

Not really; a barcher will have Cha 14 and needs to be human to keep up with feats; a ranger will have Cha 7 and skill focus: Diplomacy (half-elf). If both have talent for +1 diplomacy (and class skill for ranger), the bard starts at +7, the ranger at +6. At 10 bard will be 16 Cha after magic item, ranger's feat goes to +6. So +18 Ranger, +17 Bard. It's easy to be a party face.

Being an actual good face (which you need in Kingmaker, not just a guy who can fake it a little) involves Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive (and possibly Intimidate) all at the level you're talking about. A Ranger simply can't do it. Well, if he invests both his Traits and Cosmopolitan and doesn't dump Charisma...but it's never gonna be as good and effective.

Thalin wrote:

The bard archer suffers from the lack of improved precise; especially when the rest of the party charges forward the archery will be blocked a lot. Improved precise is huge, and bards don't get it until 15. Against humans (prevalent in this series), the ranger will outpace even further.

Having played an Archer Bard, it's really not that big a deal. You just position yourself correctly to avoid literally shooting through party members and you're good. Some coordination is needed so they intentionally move so as not to obscure your lines of fire, but that should be workable.

Thalin wrote:

Besides, hopefully that melee cleric is an Evangalist so they already have bardsong covered :).

That's...a hell of an assumption. If it happens to be true, non-Archetype Bard is indeed redundant (multiple performances not stacking), but it's hardly a likely scenario.

Bluff? Urban rangers get a bonus there too, though I'd just keep things diplomatic. Too many skills to pop around, you can get bluff if you want, but I usually find it redundant (thanks to all of the "is this bluff or diplomacy" questions, I think they should be the same skill).

Seriously, I run the bars archer too (well, evangalist); maybe I'm unlucky, but party members always get in the way. Period. And his friends are running forward.

The ranger brings another melee machine, as many skills, and far better combat damage than the bard can hope for. When someone asks for a min-maxed character, bard archer is far from the list (summoner is the only one who can fully match the bill he is looking for; but that may also be too).

Sorry for the odd post - my phone doesn't seem to work well with this board.

I've been reading a lot of the guides, particularly Treantmonk's guides. I like the concept of the god wizard. The idea of a bow wielding wizard with summons and battlefield control has caught my imagination for the moment. Is it a workable concept?

I'm not familiar with the master summoner archetype. I'll have to read up on it. We may be getting a 4th player and he loves bards, so I'm going to stay away from Bards for the moment so as to not steal his glory.

Not readily. Certainly to a far lesser degree than an Oratory or Singing Bard.

Thalin wrote:

Bluff? Urban rangers get a bonus there too, though I'd just keep things diplomatic. Too many skills to pop around, you can get bluff if you want, but I usually find it redundant (thanks to all of the "is this bluff or diplomacy" questions, I think they should be the same skill).)

Uh...they do completely different things. One makes people believe you when you may not be truthful, the other makes people like you. Those are...very different things, both in reality and the game. I've met likable bad liars and good liars who were obnoxious as hell, and seen both in fiction, too.

Thalin wrote:

Seriously, I run the bars archer too (well, evangalist); maybe I'm unlucky, but party members always get in the way. Period. And his friends are running forward.

Yeah, but they should be able to do so at an angle, take 5-foot steps, etc. to give you a clear shot. I mean, that's just really basic team coordination.

Thalin wrote:

The ranger brings another melee machine, as many skills, and far better combat damage than the bard can hope for.

Personally? Sure. Counting damage and to hit bonuses on allies? I wouldn't bet on it.

Thalin wrote:

When someone asks for a min-maxed character, bard archer is far from the list (summoner is the only one who can fully match the bill he is looking for; but that may also be too).

He asked for a min-maxed character to do a specific range of things (including Arcane Magic if you'll recall). Bard's the one that does them all.

Synthesist is a possibility...but not actually that good a face (low skill points, no class skills), and both makes the entire party melee (usually a bad call) and might steal the spotlight from the other melee folks.

EDIT:

Arjack wrote:

Sorry for the odd post - my phone doesn't seem to work well with this board.

I've been reading a lot of the guides, particularly Treantmonk's guides. I like the concept of the god wizard. The idea of a bow wielding wizard with summons and battlefield control has caught my imagination for the moment. Is it a workable concept?

I'm not familiar with the master summoner archetype. I'll have to read up on it. We may be getting a 4th player and he loves bards, so I'm going to stay away from Bards for the moment so as to not steal his glory.

If another Bard's potentially entering the scene, then yeah, God-Wizard is perfect to really fill out that Arcane Caster stuff.

And the bow would be cool at low levels, but will rapidly become obsolete by around 5th or 6th level or so (so be an elf if you want to do that).

The best skill monkey in the game is the Alchemist Mindchemist with the Breadth of Experience Feat. Since the Mindchemist can also use a Mutagen boost to Charisma as well, you can use that to give you a boost in social situations, feel free to disguise it as a cocktail.

For hitting hard, an alchemist is also excellent at that as well. As Kingmaker has usually only one battle per day, a nova style Alchemist can do some serious damage and your friends will never say you aren't optimized again.

On top of all that, you get some useful extracts and the ability to act as a backup healer, although with a cleric in the party, that shouldn't be a problem.

PF doesn't really require an arcanist. So you don't HAVE to play an arcane caster.

Cross class skills don't cost double, so there is no reason the others can't have a decent intelligence and cover some of the skills.

The cerebromancer will be a long time before it really comes into it's own. Plus since kingmaker seems to be primarily 1 combat a day you will rarely have a chance to make use of you huge number of powers.

I have not seen the magus archer done well, but I've read about it.

I would think magus, alchemist, or maybe barb/sorc/DD would be very good choices in combat. They are capable of pretty horrendous effects when they go nova. And since you are in kingmaker with only one combat a day, you can go nova on almost every combat.

Actually, the fighter will probably not look as good as usual for the same reason. A lot of the appeal of the fighter is that they have the staying power. As long as they have hit points, they are just as effective all day long. But a fighter going nova is about the same as a fighter conserving himself for later.

If you've got a possible bard coming in (and a bard lover almot HAS to play a bard in an AP like Kingmaker - it's just too awesome!), I'd suggest magus or inquisitor.

From what I've seen, magi do very well in nova combat - and it's very rare that you have to worry about having many encounters in a day.

I find the inquisitor to be tons of fun, and very versatile. With bane, you'll be able to put out a lot of damage against certain enemies when needed. Teamwork feats tend to favor melee, but their good proficiencies, buff spells, bane and judgements make ranged a reasonable backup strategy when necessary. You'll have a good number of skill points for whatever skill holes may need to be filled in the party, and the minor healing can be handy in a pinch.

- Keep your CHA maxed for social skills and spell save DCs; this may also have an effect on kingdom stats later on. The first book is heavy on combat, but social encounters start popping up after that.

- Get mind control spells (Charm/Dominate, etc) to turn enemies against one another. You don't have to hit hard if your charmed thug can do it for you.

- The ability to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with no UMD check is always handy.

- Archery lets you make full attacks virtually all the time because you rarely have to move to start shooting. Get Precise Shot first so as to avoid hitting your teammates, then Rapid Shot as soon as possible. It's never a bad idea to have a backup bow and a last ditch melee weapon.

I might look over the archetypes and see if any appeals, but frankly a plain old bard would work fine.

And never forget the most important rule: play something you'll have fun with! ^_^

If your group is only 3, my vote is hands-down for the Summoner, no archetypes. You can build a beast of a melee Eidolon who will hold his own beside the fighter, leaving the cleric and yourself to support from the back. Grab a bow (half-elf summoners are the best for favored class bonus, and can get martial prof with 1 weapon) and pluck away.

You said you want overpowered and broken, so show them you can do it. Casting is based on Cha so you should easily be able to be the party face. You won't ever need higher than 16 charisma, too.

I would take a Sorcerer. It has the charisma to be a king, has the damage potential to be useful in the adventure. But also I look at it from an after the adventure fluff, and there is no class more terrifying than an 18+ level wizard//sorcerer. The idea that they can nuke armies that even think of invading is a great deterrent to have on your side. The bard is a great class, but an 18th level bard doesn't inspire terror.

what i haven't seen addressed really is why you a. don't bring in a fourth player to balance? and b. Is rolling with that crew really that enjoyable is they're dumping on you for making concept characters?

play for the fun, and it sounds like you enjoy the story of the character rather than the mechanics of it. It is a role playing game, after all.

Maybe you need to talk to the gm about making some accommodations for what concept you're bringing to the game.

We've been playing together for a couple of decades now, so we're pretty used to each other's playstyles. They weren't dumping on me to be mean but to help me deal with the dissatisfaction with my character I usually experience after a couple of sessions. We do have a 4th but he can only play when he has "permission" from his wife - the rest of us are single / divorced (kids can do their own thing while Dad plays his weird games with his buddies).

They'd rather I had fun and they think that I design characters a little too narrow in focus (such as a 'terrormancer' concept I had - a spellcaster who only takes spells with fear effects).

So I told them I'd make a character that would blow them away. I told the GM that I'd make a broken character and he just laughed. We're out to have fun and there's really no bad feelings between anyone. We just need an 'out' from the daily pressures and responsibilities that's cheap and doesn't include alcohol :D

As to characters, if the bard-lover doesn't play a bard, I will be taking a serious look at an archer bard (and a lot of summon monster spells). Master summoner also looks cool.

Right now, I'm thinking that I will take an elven wizard and focus on conjuration (and get Augment Summoning asap). I'll grab a longbow for backup, and focus on a couple of skills.

Is it feasible to pick up stealth, perception, and survival on a mage?

Sorry for the odd post - my phone doesn't seem to work well with this board.

I've been reading a lot of the guides, particularly Treantmonk's guides. I like the concept of the god wizard. The idea of a bow wielding wizard with summons and battlefield control has caught my imagination for the moment. Is it a workable concept?

I'm not familiar with the master summoner archetype. I'll have to read up on it. We may be getting a 4th player and he loves bards, so I'm going to stay away from Bards for the moment so as to not steal his glory.

Another reason for Master Summoner: Inspire Courage would apply to anything that could perceive the bard's performance. Start looking down that tree. Once you get to 5th level (3nd if you're allowed to use alternates from various Adventure Paths), they're all buffed by your friend. More creatures = more overall buff.

Keep in mind that there's a good chance your GM will make you manage all the monsters, and you'll want to get really good at it. The vote for Master Summoner was only half-serious for this reason; it can really slow down a game if you and/or your GM don't get really good at it. That said, for Kingmaker, it might not lag so much, and it would probably be a lot of fun, due to the few combats per day. It's one of the few times I wouldn't, as a DM, groan at someone using Master Summoner.

BTW, don't forget to take Leadership and get another Master Summoner as a cohort. } : D Or follow James Jacobs' advice, and give your eidolon Leadership too. And so forth....

We've been playing together for a couple of decades now, so we're pretty used to each other's playstyles. They weren't dumping on me to be mean but to help me deal with the dissatisfaction with my character I usually experience after a couple of sessions. We do have a 4th but he can only play when he has "permission" from his wife - the rest of us are single / divorced (kids can do their own thing while Dad plays his weird games with his buddies).

They'd rather I had fun and they think that I design characters a little too narrow in focus (such as a 'terrormancer' concept I had - a spellcaster who only takes spells with fear effects).

So I told them I'd make a character that would blow them away. I told the GM that I'd make a broken character and he just laughed. We're out to have fun and there's really no bad feelings between anyone. We just need an 'out' from the daily pressures and responsibilities that's cheap and doesn't include alcohol :D

As to characters, if the bard-lover doesn't play a bard, I will be taking a serious look at an archer bard (and a lot of summon monster spells). Master summoner also looks cool.

Right now, I'm thinking that I will take an elven wizard and focus on conjuration (and get Augment Summoning asap). I'll grab a longbow for backup, and focus on a couple of skills.

Is it feasible to pick up stealth, perception, and survival on a mage?

Ehhhh...yes, but you may have to give up a spare Knowledge skill, and you'll want traits that can give you one or two of those skills as class skill. Or dip something if it gives you another good bonus, but only in that case.

You'll never summon as well as an MS, though. Their class-ability summons last 10 times as long, for one thing, making them useful even at level 1 (10 rounds versus a nearly useless 1). Nobody else can do that as far as I know. On the other hand, wizards are, well, wizards (by definition awesome). And you'll annoy your GM far less as a wizard.

Right now, I'm thinking that I will take an elven wizard and focus on conjuration (and get Augment Summoning asap). I'll grab a longbow for backup, and focus on a couple of skills.

Is it feasible to pick up stealth, perception, and survival on a mage?

No. Stealth you can pick up via one of my favourite traits: highlander, which doesn´t really fit with an elven wizard. If you want more arcane casting than the bard has, take a sorcerer. You wrote you need diplomatic skills, especially an elven wizard will not provide that.

I just had a revelation. Let's see if you guys agree with my conclusions.

I play a lot of MMORPGs. In WoW I played a Hunter and a Warlock to max level. In City of Heroes I played an Illusion / Storm controller to 50. In City of Villains I played a Mastermind to 50. All pet classes, all the time.

I think the logical conclusion is that I should play a Summoner of some sort. Probably a Master Summoner.

I just had a revelation. Let's see if you guys agree with my conclusions.

I play a lot of MMORPGs. In WoW I played a Hunter and a Warlock to max level. In City of Heroes I played an Illusion / Storm controller to 50. In City of Villains I played a Mastermind to 50. All pet classes, all the time.

I think the logical conclusion is that I should play a Summoner of some sort. Probably a Master Summoner.

Now, how to max out a master summoner? :D

It's pretty straight forward. I would suggest having write ups of monsters you will summon to speed up encounters.

While it sounds like you have made your choice, witch would also be a very strong choice for your group. They get a good mix of arcane and divine spells, and a wide variety of hexes, and can cover a lot of different roles with very little effort.