MoapaPk wrote: But most of the climbers I see have a lot more money invested in their racks, versus their clothes. Dirt-baggers and nouveau riche both have similar goals about staying alive, and I doubt either group is inclined to scrimp on hardware.

Hot Henry Barber, a true hardman, still climbs on all passives. I've climbed on many partner's racks that still consist of rigid-stems and self-slung draws with old-fashioned ovals. If anyone here has seen 180 degrees South, they've probably noticed YC's old ice axe and crampons. I know Dow has got a shiny new rack and is expecting a new pair of Nomics. Why is it ok to have shiny hardware for the sake of chasing grades, but not softgoods?

Now now welle, there you go getting off track again, confusing facts about me personally...but where you would be right, if you were not confused....is....yes, like I said in the original post...if we were to come out with a titanium plated cam and charged you guys $300 per would you pay it? I actually believe all cams are competitively priced and quite functional, same with wires, hexes, big bros, etc. It is my opinion that we don't have an equivalent dead bird among the gear manufacturers although I am damn tempted to start one!!! I highlighted below the main point of the post again. Seriously, if this is important to you to get a point across, try to debate the issue, versus making guesses about what I do or don't own.

Dow Williams wrote:There you go Welle, good post, I knew you could discuss the subject at hand versus worrying about how many homes I might own....dude, the post is about why some of you guys get conned into paying $600 for a jacket or $1000 for a bag that, in my (and many others opinion who spend a lot of time in the field testing clothing systems in harsh elements) do not serve you well. Some of you are mislead that you can buy a bag or jacket that will save your life (one such guy stated same in this thread!). Learning how to properly dig a snow cave might save your life, but not some $1000 bag over a $200 bag made of the same friggin material. For $600, I guess you think you are buying a bomber jacket....but as already pointed out, that does not do anything for you but make you sweat more. Sweat kills. Keeping dry should be your utmost concern. Agreed that if you are not climbing hard, but more or less going at a steady hiking rate, it is not as much of an issue. But as you progress to more technical routes....layering becomes that much more critical. And if you are climbing a lot, worrying about putting a hole in your $600 pants or jacket should be the furtherest thing from your mind. It is marketing. It is hype. It is branding. There are many great brands out there, but dird bird is not one of them in my opinion.....their proud logo wearing customers remind me of the same folks who use to pay twice as much for the same Landrover model that had the exact same engine in it than the lessor priced model. The lower priced model, everyone concurred, was so much more durable when put to the test in west Africa. Yes, I always express my opinions openly and without sugar coating......and never worry about who is insensitive enough to think they were shit on personally. Some love it, some loath it. It is no act.

But, here is something real you can actually bite into versus making shit up about how many homes I own, how much I drink, etc...the junior high debate style several of you seem attached to.....my lovely wife asked what I was typing out yesterday afternoon...she knows my policy about climbing with someone covered in deadbird all to well....I told her and she chuckled as she pointed out that I had a dead bird shirt on!!!! Dude, I don't think I knew I even owned one.....it has been one of the most comfortable lay around the house shirts in my closet for years. I obviously don't pay much attention to my clothes, I looked down on my chest and sure enough, there is the dead bird. Now that is some funny shit if you ask me.

PS, I know someone gave me this shirt somewhere along the line!!!! I did not buy it.

Dow Williams wrote:There you go Welle, good post, I knew you could discuss the subject at hand versus worrying about how many homes I might own....dude, the post is about why some of you guys get conned into paying $600 for a jacket or $1000 for a bag that, in my (and many others opinion who spend a lot of time in the field testing clothing systems in harsh elements) do not serve you well. Some of you are mislead that you can buy a bag or jacket that will save your life (one such guy stated same in this thread!). Learning how to properly dig a snow cave might save your life, but not some $1000 bag over a $200 bag made of the same friggin material. For $600, I guess you think you are buying a bomber jacket....but as already pointed out, that does not do anything for you but make you sweat more. Sweat kills. Keeping dry should be your utmost concern. Agreed that if you are not climbing hard, but more or less going at a steady hiking rate, it is not as much of an issue. But as you progress to more technical routes....layering becomes that much more critical. And if you are climbing a lot, worrying about putting a hole in your $600 pants or jacket should be the furtherest thing from your mind. It is marketing. It is hype. It is branding. There are many great brands out there, but dird bird is not one of them in my opinion.....their proud logo wearing customers remind me of the same folks who use to pay twice as much for the same Landrover model that had the exact same engine in it than the lessor priced model. The lower priced model, everyone concurred, was so much more durable when put to the test in west Africa. Yes, I always express my opinions openly and without sugar coating......and never worry about who is insensitive enough to think they were shit on personally. Some love it, some loath it. It is no act.

Actually, Dow, as far as I can tell, your main gripe seems to be about people not knowing how to dress and layer appropriately in the mountains, not about the functionality of higher priced clothing. The usefulness of wearing a particular article of clothing at a particular time is quite different from debating whether between two articles of clothing--each serving more or less the same function--there is good reason to purchase a more expensive one. Yes, people need to learn dress right for the alpine. Sweat kills, wear layers; we all need to learn that, but each of our bodies respond differently to cold and exertion. A jacket or sleeping bag that may be too warm for you may be just right for someone else. Getting self-righteous about that seems pointless.

Now is it worth it to pay more to get, say, a windshirt from Patagonia or Arcteryx rather than from Walmart? It might be. For example, I find that Patagonia stuff just fits me much better than other major clothing manufacturers. I don't like baggy jackets, the extra fabric gets in the way, and thus I prefer Patagonia's athletic fit. Moreover I appreciate their corporate ethics. What about that chain of reasoning makes me a wanna be poser that could never climb hard? Nothing. The fact that I can afford more expensive clothing, although like everyone here I only buy from sales, does in fact mean that I work a job and am not a dirtbag. But since when are only dirtbags allowed to climb? Since when do only dirtbags climb hard? I admire people that have chosen climbing over career. I often wish I could do the same. But the fact that I'm a weekend warrior does not make me a superficial materialist scumbag. You seem to insist that there is inherent causal relationship between what you wear and your ability, perhaps even your worthiness, to climb. But you know what? That makes you as much of a prejudiced, superficial jerk as the guy who thinks that his $600 shell makes him a bad-ass alpinist. If you want us to believe you that gear has nothing to do with climbing ability, that logos don't matter, then stop looking at what everyone else is wearing and go climb. Your insistence on judging everyone by their appearance gives the impression of a deep insecurity or jealousy on your part. Shut up and go climb like the hardman you are. We'll respect you a lot more then.

I love how you deadbirders try and compare shopping at Walmart of all places to what you are spending....just bypassing the entire outdoor clothing industry (none of which is sold at Walmart---with the exception of some street Northface product) in one swell swoop. Somebody claiming I need to climb more? Dude....I try to climb every day, but not the hard man you come to expect I guess....sry to let you down....I do climb more days than not, but you are stuck with me unfortunately until I can get a herniated disc healed up just a bit. You surely will suffer through it and then back to bragging about your new purchases on line. And no, I am not mad at any of you for spending $600 on a jacket, of course I don't care....just knew it would make for good debate....and no this is not just about layering....it is about you thinking a $600 jacket is going to enhance your performance or protect you better than all the $100-$300 jackets. That is just not the case, you are being suckers via marketing and branding. This is not personal from my side, I am not the one doing the spending...you are, thus I can see how you do take it so personal....you sort of have a brotherhood thing going....kind of like paying a membership to belong to a country club I suppose. But don't try and convince those of us in the field that these wildly overpriced clothes do anything extra for you.

People have climbed things more than 50 years ago that I can only dream about climbing. They did it with gear that was a lot worse than what most of us would consider crap. So as usual some compensate with gear. Persinally hope to train, improve and compensate with skill.There will be people who will buy 300$ cam though, I am sure. Probably a lot if it is about 200$ and you advertise it as lightest/best, you know the deal better.

I am in....now, what shall we name them? I want to see a damn creative logo that creates a sense of belonging.

One thing that has changed from 50 years ago (or for me, 40...) is that people seem to have much tighter schedules, and seem to have greater expectation about the number of outdoor adventures they will pack into a lifetime... all the while spending too much time on careers, too far from mountains. Hence there is a desire to find every way to go faster, lighter; to cut out the margin of time that we used to allot for just getting there.

I've definitely been on the other side of that. I refused to buy a nice rain jacket and got one off the bargin rack for 30 bucks or something. It was very light but very much not water proof. After 1 trip of being soaked through while being rained on for 2 hours I stepped up and bought a nice as rain jacket. Luckily my layers were good material and still held the heat. It's not fun being soaked when it's 50 degrees. I'll admit I'm a bit of a salley though.

Given, it's not a $600 rain jacket. I was pretty pissed at wasting the first 30 bucks. I think my new rain jacket was $110 or $120. Well worth the investment.

example ... dead bird packs ... they dont weight any less than the competition, and frequently weight more ... some of them dont even have ice axe loops anymore ... it wont save you any weight

another example ... dead bird rain jackets ... the weight is the same or more as anyone elses ... yet they cost quite a bit more ... i got a 5 oz OR helium for cheap, the dead birdie stays at home ... it weights 1/4 as much ... will it last as long? ... well ill only put it on when its raining and in alpine i suspect if its really raining ill be descending

or how about them dead bird powershield softshells ... you know the ones that weight more than my belay jacket and you overheat in when carrying a pack on the way up .... a light fleece and windshirt is cheaper, lighter and more flexible ... or a weave softshell is more breathable and frequently cheaper

if you spend money to get ACTUAL performance and weight savings ... nothing wrong with that ... id buy a rocket tent in a heartbeat if i needed one

however if you buy something with a funky name that is functionally the same and weights the same as something you can buy at MEC/REI for half the price ... your choice, just don't pretend its any better or makes you any better

because some old geezer or hotshot kid who climbs better with in his $20 fleece will show you how wrong you are

bearbreeder wrote:example ... dead bird packs ... they dont weight any less than the competition, and frequently weight more ... some of them dont even have ice axe loops anymore ... it wont save you any weight

I will say my beautiful Osprey (Live Bird?) 85 enables me to carry more shit a lot further and with greater comfort than my Boy Scout Yucca Bag with the home-built external frame.