question b4 i bring my hunter back.

alright so ive played hunters ever since mid vanilla to early cata. currently got a late start to mop and playing a lock, and im starting raiding next week. But im really wanting to main my old hunter again. question is since they're currently or was "op" in pvp after the 5.1 nerf on the ptr is bm atleast still viable?

Truth is the only thing that was really op (and that is up for debate among the real PvP elite) was Stampede and/or Lynx Rush. That was ONLY in PvP. If you're deciding on raiding with a hunter you only have two choices right now. BM which is showing highest on most fights for hunter Dps and SV which is doing decent on some fights and great on Add fights. However, you need to take all that with a grain of salt because our overall raid performance is sub-par at best. With the most recent nerfs and hotfixes, it's killed our burst and thus hurt our Raid Dps further. PTR is showing a slight gain with the buffs for 5.1 but overall we're still 17th out of 23 DPS specs on patchwork style fights. That is our best spec, which is still BM. Now raiding isn't all about Dps of course, but we are in a very bad spot as far as sustained damage goes.

sub par compared to where we were in the past, not sub par in reality. Plus, the changes to LR and the hotfix to Stampede have no raid PvE implications other than the inability to chain two LRs with Readiness within 8 seconds.

I don't know where you got the 17th out of 23rd number, but I'm guessing it's from SimC, which is notoriously unreliable right now.

sub par compared to where we were in the past, not sub par in reality. Plus, the changes to LR and the hotfix to Stampede have no raid PvE implications other than the inability to chain two LRs with Readiness within 8 seconds.

I don't know where you got the 17th out of 23rd number, but I'm guessing it's from SimC, which is notoriously unreliable right now.

That being said, if you're looking to top charts, stay warlock.

Sub par for any pure DPS.

The 17th comes from the median averages of all fights in the latest contest for live raid logs which mirror the data we saw on simcraft and what Zeherah has seen on the SS. Arguing semantics aside, the stampede nerf is still active in PVE and hasn't be reverted as well as the readiness change. Total damage for pets was cut from 175% to 25% which significantly hurt BM burst and sustained suffered as a consequence.

Stampede has always been (on live) intended to summon 4 25% damage pets. It wasn't doing this in arenas. It was hotfixed, for arenas. It is working the same as it was on live the day it launched, in PvE.

The only DPS nerf hunters have had so far in MoP has been the change to Rabid, which was a pretty big nerf for BM (especially since it lined up nicely with LR) and a marginal nerf for SV/MM.

Also, looking at medians is rather pointless. Hunters went from a 1 shot opener (SrS), literally four shot rotation (ES/AS/CoS/BA) with a 5m CD in DS (RF), to one of the more complex DPS playstyles in MoP. The skillcap has definitely been raised, maybe even moreso than other classes compared to how easy the class WAS. But at the high end, hunters are much more competitive than 17th.

Though sure, of the pure specs, we are below mages and warlocks, and below rogues in blade flurry fights. Someone has to be.

Sims mean nothing! Real, in-game fights, with mechanics mean everything. BM is in a very good spot right now DPS wise. Absolutely no reason that they arent or wont be competitive if you know how to play. My hunter, in my alt 10 man does a steady 10k over everyone else. That could be skill, but ill attribute it to the very simplistic way in which BM is played, making a "Flawless" rotation very possible. Also, on certain fights, the burst BM has is a huge plus.

Stampede has always been (on live) intended to summon 4 25% damage pets. It wasn't doing this in arenas. It was hotfixed, for arenas. It is working the same as it was on live the day it launched, in PvE.

The only DPS nerf hunters have had so far in MoP has been the change to Rabid, which was a pretty big nerf for BM (especially since it lined up nicely with LR) and a marginal nerf for SV/MM.

Also, looking at medians is rather pointless. Hunters went from a 1 shot opener (SrS), literally four shot rotation (ES/AS/CoS/BA) with a 5m CD in DS (RF), to one of the more complex DPS playstyles in MoP. The skillcap has definitely been raised, maybe even moreso than other classes compared to how easy the class WAS. But at the high end, hunters are much more competitive than 17th.

Though sure, of the pure specs, we are below mages and warlocks, and below rogues in blade flurry fights. Someone has to be.

you must play a mage... cause if you think hunters are fine you do not play one, or you play with people who have less skill the a drunk forrest gump.

Stampede has always been (on live) intended to summon 4 25% damage pets. It wasn't doing this in arenas. It was hotfixed, for arenas. It is working the same as it was on live the day it launched, in PvE.

The only DPS nerf hunters have had so far in MoP has been the change to Rabid, which was a pretty big nerf for BM (especially since it lined up nicely with LR) and a marginal nerf for SV/MM.

Also, looking at medians is rather pointless. Hunters went from a 1 shot opener (SrS), literally four shot rotation (ES/AS/CoS/BA) with a 5m CD in DS (RF), to one of the more complex DPS playstyles in MoP. The skillcap has definitely been raised, maybe even moreso than other classes compared to how easy the class WAS. But at the high end, hunters are much more competitive than 17th.

Though sure, of the pure specs, we are below mages and warlocks, and below rogues in blade flurry fights. Someone has to be.

You know, I'd be inclined to believe you; if anything you stated was true. At this point, all you've done is argue with me to prove yourself and then agree with me to close your case. Meaningless really.

No matter what you want to say, sims and logs are showing the same results that we saw a year ago in beta. Nothing has changed. They went live with Stampede at 175% pet damage, realized it was overpowered for mid-range skill PvP and knee-jerk nerf'd the entire spec to compensate. We've been bottom to middle of the Raid Dps this entire time and every log shows it.

I regularly best people in DPS on fights and have consistently over the years with less gear. There IS something to be said for skill. However, when you look at the class as a whole compared to all the others, we are badly lacking and the nerf's didn't do any good. The entire point of this thread was not a contest of who's right and who's wrong, but to give a asked for opinion to the OP about the state of BM. That being that it is still a viable spec for HUNTERS. However, the hunter class as a whole is sub-par.

Continue to contest the anecdotal evidence of this all you want, the proof is in BOTH the sims, the logs and live.

You know, I'd be inclined to believe you; if anything you stated was true. At this point, all you've done is argue with me to prove yourself and then agree with me to close your case. Meaningless really.

No matter what you want to say, sims and logs are showing the same results that we saw a year ago in beta. Nothing has changed. They went live with Stampede at 175% pet damage, realized it was overpowered for mid-range skill PvP and knee-jerk nerf'd the entire spec to compensate. We've been bottom to middle of the Raid Dps this entire time and every log shows it.

I regularly best people in DPS on fights and have consistently over the years with less gear. There IS something to be said for skill. However, when you look at the class as a whole compared to all the others, we are badly lacking and the nerf's didn't do any good. The entire point of this thread was not a contest of who's right and who's wrong, but to give a asked for opinion to the OP about the state of BM. That being that it is still a viable spec for HUNTERS. However, the hunter class as a whole is sub-par.

Continue to contest the anecdotal evidence of this all you want, the proof is in BOTH the sims, the logs and live.

What's funny is how you didn't disprove a single thing he said despite claiming it was all anecdotal BS.

And tbh esch, while vodka's logs may show their hunter near the top, even raidbots for H modes shows hunters at the bottom of the tree. I'm going to assume people doing HMs know what they're doing. Still undecided myself on how good we are.... I've managed to do fairly well in the raid groups I've been in. But idk.

What's funny is how you didn't disprove a single thing he said despite claiming it was all anecdotal BS.

And tbh esch, while vodka's logs may show their hunter near the top, even raidbots for H modes shows hunters at the bottom of the tree. I'm going to assume people doing HMs know what they're doing. Still undecided myself on how good we are.... I've managed to do fairly well in the raid groups I've been in. But idk.

What's funny is in your condescending manner, you just proved my point again. Thank you. ---> "even raidbots for H modes shows hunters at the bottom of the tree"

I play a hunter in a heroic mode raiding guild. Stampede's damage has not been nerfed in PvE, except for the change to Rabid (which was cast by Stampede pets when summoned if they had it on autocast). If you can find an actual mathematical nerf other than that, announced or unannounced, I'd love to hear it. I'm consistently near the top on fights 2, 3, 4 in H-MSV, just like GC suggested hunters were, and when I'm not I'm always within a few thousand DPS except in fights where I'm taking on a gimmicky role or our rogue is blade flurrying some gimmick.

Stampede increases your pet autoattack/basic attack damage by 100%. Each of your 4 summoned pets does 25% of that 100% extra. It has always been that way, in PvE. I don't know how many times that has to be said.

GC said sometime last week, or the week before, that in arenas Stampede pets were not having that reduction, and were EACH doing 100%, leading to 500% pet damage during Stampede.

I play a hunter in a heroic mode raiding guild. Stampede's damage has not been nerfed in PvE, except for the change to Rabid (which was cast by Stampede pets when summoned if they had it on autocast). If you can find an actual mathematical nerf other than that, announced or unannounced, I'd love to hear it. I'm consistently near the top on fights 2, 3, 4 in H-MSV, just like GC suggested hunters were, and when I'm not I'm always within a few thousand DPS except in fights where I'm taking on a gimmicky role or our rogue is blade flurrying some gimmick.

Stampede increases your pet autoattack/basic attack damage by 100%. Each of your 4 summoned pets does 25% of that 100% extra. It has always been that way, in PvE. I don't know how many times that has to be said.

GC said sometime last week, or the week before, that in arenas Stampede pets were not having that reduction, and were EACH doing 100%, leading to 500% pet damage during Stampede.

Listing your achievements is cute, makes me feel so much smaller.

But I'm sorry for you, they went live with the beta model of every pet at 175%. Don't believe me? Do some research. They hotfixed Stampede in both PVE and that hotfix was SUPPOSED to apply as well the PVP. The hotfix being the nerf to 25%. The bug was that it didn't apply to Arenas. Once that bug was fixed, it's now a flat 25% across the board.

Ummm, patch 5.0.4 was the launch of the pre-patch for MoP. It was the system revamp pre-patch, and the level cap was 85. Considering no one could cast Stampede at 85, as it's a level 87 spell, your point seems to be kind of...what's the word? Erroneous?

There was a tooltip update on Oct 1 during the hotfixes, but it was reflecting a change that was already live. Even if you would like to continue arguing your erroneous and misguided position on the basis that 1) it wasn't a tooltip update but a nerf, 2) that certainly Oct 1st was six days after the launch of MoP, and thus a nerf in MoP, consider this: raids didn't open til Oct 2nd. It'd be hard to argue, that Stampede has seen a nerf in any significant PvE, as the only available PvE at the time of the absolute latest possible change to 25% damage were 5 man heroics. And you could only argue that in the first place if you wanted to gin up a conspiracy that the Oct 1st tooltip update was actually a nerf and not a tooltip update.

When they lowered the CD from 10 minutes to 5 minutes, they doubled the length to 20s and made each pet do 25% damage instead of 175% damage. That happened on the beta, before the game ever launched. End of story.

Ummm, patch 5.0.4 was the launch of the pre-patch for MoP. It was the system revamp pre-patch, and the level cap was 85. Considering no one could cast Stampede at 85, as it's a level 87 spell, your point seems to be kind of...what's the word? Erroneous?

There was a tooltip update on Oct 1 during the hotfixes, but it was reflecting a change that was already live. Even if you would like to continue arguing your erroneous and misguided position on the basis that 1) it wasn't a tooltip update but a nerf, 2) that certainly Oct 1st was six days after the launch of MoP, and thus a nerf in MoP, consider this: raids didn't open til Oct 2nd. It'd be hard to argue, that Stampede has seen a nerf in any significant PvE, as the only available PvE at the time of the absolute latest possible change to 25% damage were 5 man heroics. And you could only argue that in the first place if you wanted to gin up a conspiracy that the Oct 1st tooltip update was actually a nerf and not a tooltip update.

When they lowered the CD from 10 minutes to 5 minutes, they doubled the length to 20s and made each pet do 25% damage instead of 175% damage. That happened on the beta, before the game ever launched. End of story.

Okay skipper. So both wowpedia, wowhead and curse database all have it wrong and have had it wrong for a month now? That's odd. They always seem to be pretty on top of it.

You're just arguing for the sake of auguring to try and validate yourself. I commend you for that, but it's pointless. Or in your case, I'll say "erroneous." A nerf is a nerf and your mindless bickering has done nothing but distract from the point of the thread that Bm was still viable but hunters themselves are weak. My original point. Rebuke and continue to contest all you want young man. Makes little difference in the end.

Okay skipper. So both wowpedia, wowhead and curse database all have it wrong and have had it wrong for a month now? That's odd. They always seem to be pretty on top of it.

You're just arguing for the sake of auguring to try and validate yourself. I commend you for that, but it's pointless. Or in your case, I'll say "erroneous." A nerf is a nerf and your mindless bickering has done nothing but distract from the point of the thread that Bm was still viable but hunters themselves are weak. My original point. Rebuke and continue to contest all you want young man. Makes little difference in the end.

I think you are the one who is arguing just to argue.

i've checked the list of hotfixes for patch 5.0.4 on WoWpedia. I cannot find a single mention of the stampede nerf on any date, at least not under the hunter hotfixes. i've checked the first Wowhead PTR news post for the tooltip updates, it mentions no change for stampede, and neither does the first MMO-champion PTR build report. everyone else is providing you with valid proof that it has always been that way, yet instead of providing a rebuttal of their proof, you just call out others on their so-called errors, while at this moment everything calls to you being the erroneous.

i've checked the list of hotfixes for patch 5.0.4 on WoWpedia. I cannot find a single mention of the stampede nerf on any date, at least not under the hunter hotfixes. i've checked the first Wowhead PTR news post for the tooltip updates, it mentions no change for stampede, and neither does the first MMO-champion PTR build report. everyone else is providing you with valid proof that it has always been that way, yet instead of providing a rebuttal of their proof, you just call out others on their so-called errors, while at this moment everything calls to you being the erroneous.

love you're logic... because you are incapable of knowing where to find the info it means it does not exist. No wonder children of today are not half as intelligent as the ones before the internet.

Hi Preposterous.
First of all - Play what you thing will be fun for you. Dont look at "op" classes.
But I need to say I am not happy with hunter model this tear and I am re-rolling to healer - monk (because our guild needs some "op" healers in HM progression). I need to say hunter DPS is low based on Skill level needed and effort it needs on all fights. I wasted hours in forums just to read how to play it the best and I am all the time on last places in DPS ( OK I am in the middle on 2-3 bosses) which is not fer compared to other members in our guild which are just going to raid and do nothing more - and Topping DPS meters /wave Mages/DKs. I am only PvE player (now we are at 2/12 HC 25man -nothing special but i thing we are fine with only 12 hours progression in week ). Hunters needs some love from blizzard. But I am not expecting anything this patch. So sad situation for hunters.

i've checked the list of hotfixes for patch 5.0.4 on WoWpedia. I cannot find a single mention of the stampede nerf on any date, at least not under the hunter hotfixes. i've checked the first Wowhead PTR news post for the tooltip updates, it mentions no change for stampede, and neither does the first MMO-champion PTR build report. everyone else is providing you with valid proof that it has always been that way, yet instead of providing a rebuttal of their proof, you just call out others on their so-called errors, while at this moment everything calls to you being the erroneous.

Funny. Everyone wants to state their own personal opinion, yet when given proof, it becomes an argument.

What I find really amusing is the fact that being right and being wrong is irrelevant. I stated simple facts about the class as a whole to start with. Just to help a fellow player out. Then it became a verbal sparring match with some people who like listing their achievements and how great they are but at the same time, literally BACKING up my original statement in condescending fashions.

I've listed the Beta strings. I've shown EXACTLY what the original spell WAS. Where it was nerf'd, the amount it was nerf'd and the time frame for it to happen. Interestingly enough, Super hunter up there confirmed that in his reply. As well as every other time he's replied. The fact of the matter is right or wrong, the person that came to the thread with a attitude of superiority and a matter-of-fact tone to talk down to others was eschatological. I've simply stated the same thing time and time again.

Go look at the logs. Go look at the beta test data. Go look at the CURRENT PTR data. Hell, go look back at the string changes listed here on MMO itself. Every website that covers WoW has the same data. Stampede was 175% when it went live. The preliminary testing data for the PTR pre-launch showed hunters in a very bad spot as far as raid DPS was concerned. Blizzard addressed this by saying "hunters are where we want them to be and the other classes are going to be adjusted to bring them in line with Hunter DPS." However, if that was true, why did we go live and replicate the results we'd seen in PTR and SimC testing? Why did we have are talents nerf'd without documentation overnight?

The proof is everywhere if you just dig it up and look. Or better yet, if anyone just pays attention, they will see it. But don't take my word for it. Do the work yourself instead of dismissing everything and countering it with "I don't see it. SHOW ME."