#77xbobbobx,
Posted:Oct 19 2009 at 2:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) you must suck because when I am in a party with some friends that are bards they have no problem getting attack songs on me, haste on melee, ballad on mages and still pull with no issues.

you must suck because when I am in a party with some friends that are bards they have no problem getting attack songs on me, haste on melee, ballad on mages and still pull with no issues.

so sorry I shouldnt call them lazy bards, just sh*tty bards. 90% of bards play it for the fast invites and easy merits to begin with and most of them really suck at their job.

I'm not a BRD, I have COR leveled so learn to read ok.

I don't agree with you at all that your BRD's have time to buff you unless you're getting the same buffs as the other melee in range. It's not feasible at all unless your melee suck so bad, you take 40sec+ to kill a bird. If you have 2 BRD's, there shouldn't be a problem. But something tells me you're not talking about that are you? BRD songs take 8secs to cast without Fast cast gear. You can't honestly expect me to believe that a pulling BRD is spending at least 32 secs casting per buff cycle. Double march 16sec, Ballad 8sec, and 1 RNG song 8sec.

Meanwhile, I'm on my COR with instant rolls(excluding double up) and the mobs are dying so fast, the BRD's barely have enough time to pull. I often find myself still doubling up well onto the next mob because of the fast kills. So please don't expect me or anyone else that plays a support class to believe you. We know how fast a mob dies and I'll admit, I hate pulling on COR for that very reason. To make the claim that your BRD friends can buff everyone and still do their job is a bold faced lie.

Just to toss in my two cents here between Bob and Shadowedge, but Shadow does make some good points here. I've leveled a support job (RDM), and I also have a 75 RNG, and I must say that the mechanics of this game do in fact effect just how much support jobs can do. I agree, if you play a support job, you really do learn to have respect for their posistion. There isn't a DD job in this game that's more difficult to play than a support job.

As a RDM, I've had some really fun situations. Refresh, Haste, Heal, and sleep pull to boot (all in one party!). As a RNG, I kind of stand in one spot, and shoot. Maybe I'll go the extra mile and pull too. BRD gets to pull, yap at people who don't stand in the right spot (COR too), buff five people, etc.

What's my point? My point is that before any exclusively dd player calls someone a crappy support, they really should try walking a mile in that support's shoes. See just how much more difficult their job is, and just how well you do at. Then decide if you want to call them crappy.

If a v-bow user can spam Sidewinder at 100% TP and not pull hate then he's going to be doing only slightly less damage than a Yoichi user due to Sidewinder's higher damage and the v-bow's lower delay. That would place it in the same category as Ragnarok.

I have a Yoichinoyumi and I have been using it for a while, so let me set you straight on the above.

First... you cannot 'spam Sidewinder' at 100% TP using an Ebow or Vbow with the same accuracy as Namas Arrow on HNM. It is just not possible. One missed WS and your overall damage takes a big hit.

Second... you cannot 'spam Sidewinder' and not pull hate. You can get away with the first two or even three Sidewinders, but by the fourth Sidewinder you'll be spending more time recasting shadows, or lying dead on the ground. Don't blame this on bad tanks... our LS has some of the best PLDs with the best gear obtainable, and even so, any decent RNG trying to 'spam Sidewinder' will end up as Khimaira's chew toy, or worse.

The beauty of Namas Arrow (and Coronach) is that they *can* be spammed as fast as you can rack up 100% tp. I often go RNG/SAM to the HNMs that RNGs are good on (like Khimaira, Ixion, etc.) and even though Namas Arrow is roughly 75% damage of a Sidewinder, it is extremely accurate, has a slightly longer WS range, gives a ranged accuracy boost that can help for Barrage, and it generates about as much hate as a Dispel or 120dmg worth no matter how much dmg I do with it. I have done well over 1200 - 1500 Namas Arrow (with COR, BRD and other buffs) and the HNM doesn't even bat an eyelash at me.

I don't put up the big numbers like Sidewinder does - even though I can use Sidewinder if I really wanted - but even a normal unbuffed Namas Arrow is about 4 - 6 times more powerful than a normal shot, and probably generates less hate. By that, I mean if you're holding back because you want to get more TP for a more accurate Sidewinder and/or you're trying to space out your hate spikes from firing them off, then I'm already using Namas right at 100 - 105% TP and building up for the next one.

Also... I can get a 6 hit on Yoichi using Rajas and Skadi's Chausses, and a 5 hit with Rajas, Skadi's Chausses, Mekki Shakki and /SAM sub. Plus /SAM has meditate. Since I like to spam Namas Arrow, I generally like to go RNG/SAM, but I also like my RNG/WAR's berserk.

As for triple damage procs... those are nice for normal shots (I've done about 700 - 800 with a single arrow, with buffs), but they're a nightmare for Barrage. I mean... you can get some eye-opening Barrages, but that pretty much defeats the purpose of using a Yoichi or Annihilator because you're almost guaranteed to be dead after that -_-;

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If the enmity adjustments are strong enough to let HF+1/O-bow/E-bow users act like relic wielders, it will let relic wielders act like completely unhinged maniacs.

Even with my Namas Arrow spam and my strict avoidance of Sidewinder on anything worth fighting, I'm *still* very close to the top of the hate list - so close that I have pulled hate with a Namas Arrow. It is very rare that it actually happens, but it does sometimes.

Holy crapola, people complain about these job improvements? As if merit parties is the only **** thing worth doing in game? FFXI really is 'dieing.'

Does no one fight HNMs here anymore? RNGs just moved ahead for physical damage now on ToAU NMs. Because I remember holding back quite a bit on something like a Sarameya where we stand more than 21 ticks away, this would allow a RNG to use more WSes or JAs like Barrage and not mess up hate.

Sorry Rangers, you can't be tops at both HNMs and merit parties. If you were, people would cry and it would be 04/05 all over again. Learn to love the updates.

I have lost 1 exp parse since buying my Kclub (~3 years). That was a too a relic holding SAM.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with RNG in exp and I will prove that to anyone.

Well K Club RNG I think should be excluded from this since they are not really using the RNG mechanic at this point. They are frontlining it with a 10 milion gil weapon. It shouldn't be expected for a RNG to require that to outparse a SAM without relic.

I'd take a K Club RNG any day over most jobs to a meripo. It's just that there are very few of them in existence.

They are frontlining it with a 10 milion gil weapon. It shouldn't be expected for a RNG to require that to outparse a SAM without relic.

10 MILLION!? sh*t i'm moving to your server and buying a few of those. They're 45mil on my server.

anyway

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rngs just cant keep up with haste, triple attack or double attack job traits, kick attacks, and jumps that all the other melees have access to.

To a certain extent, you're correct, but you're blinding yourself to the fact that, while your sam/drg/war are pumping out thier best 5-poke-jokes/Rampages just as fast as they can and faster than a rng, we drop ONE ws and end a bird's dreams of grandeur and send it on into enlightenment. Its the age old argument of whats better, 2 1000 point ws's from a sam, or 1 2000 point ws from a rng. Get over it we all get the job done one way or another. And if your rng's arent parsing somewhere at the top of the list, something is very very wrong. Even w/o buffs from brd or cor, wlugwinder STILL does hands down better damage on average and we STILL can get 5-hit builds as easily as other jobs.

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Go level a support job and maybe you'll learn something. It's a ***** to pull, keep up buffs 100%, handle links if they arise, and anything else I missed. How about you go pull jackass and that way, your BRD will have time to sing buffs just for you. Oh wait, that means your damage will suffer... OH noess...

Oh how quickly we forget...apparently you dont remember when it was a ranger's JOB to be the puller, it was either you or the thf, and most thfs pussed out on my server. So dont give me any sh*t about "oh you go pull"

and on another note, since apprently you havent figured this one out, i'll clue you in as to how brds tend to do things. Pull 1-2 birds, sing a song, pull another bird, sing 2nd song, pull another, sing your 3rd, pull another sing your 4th. By the reckoning that it takes 8 secs to sing a song and 30 ish to kill a mob (pending on tp of Dd's at start), you should have a good 22 secs or so after your song to get out there and bring us the next mob. If your so **** bent on trying to get 2-3 or 4 songs out at once, then just bring back 3-4 birds.

I am so sick of prima-donna brds ranting on about how so very hard your job is, get over it, never, ever forget, that your #1 priority in a party is to buff the party members so that the mage(s) have MP and the melees do-what-they-do. Pulling is secondary and anyone with voke/ratt/songs/spells can pull a mob.

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Holy crapola, people complain about these job improvements? As if merit parties is the only **** thing worth doing in game? FFXI really is 'dieing.'

We arent complaining, we are debating the, as of now, hypothetical relevance of these buffs to current game play and the future of ranger.

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What's my point? My point is that before any exclusively dd player calls someone a crappy support, they really should try walking a mile in that support's shoes. See just how much more difficult their job is, and just how well you do at. Then decide if you want to call them crappy.

umm, i know i cant speak for everyone here, but after 6 years of playing this game, I'm pretty sure that we can tell quite easily, when someone sucks *** at their support job. Oh and alot of us HAVE levelled those support jobs.

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Based on? How many RNG's have you seen in meripos? How many times have you merited on RNG?

Every day. I see Rng's being scooped up for meripos nearly as they put their flags up and quite often get /tells asking me to merit when there are a dozen drg's and sam's lfg.

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How can a job that rarely ends up in a meripo be a premium meripo job? If it was a premium job for meripo it should be as frequently seen as SAM, WAR, DRG and DRK.

Your server, sir, is not the only server in FFXI and server "favorites" differ. Rngs on my server get scooped up fast, whereas apprently on yours they do not.

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The fact is, while it can do comparable to superior damage to those "big 4", it has certain disadvantages that lead it to be second class.

Okay, yes we have disadvantages, say, the same ones drg has when super jump isnt up, or war/sam as far as defensive capabilites go. However, you should really remove the "comparable" seeing as how those "big 4" with nice gear vs a nice gear rng are usually eating crow in the meripo situation.

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Cost is one of the bigger reasons. Why pay for damage when you can get it for free with one of the other 4 jobs.

I'm sorry, you cant use someone's pocket-book as a reason you dont get invited to meripo as rng. No one out there is trying to conserve you money. And if its straight up cost relevant to you, Cor is far mor expensive than ranger.

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Poor defense is another. Even if you are meticulous about shadows or 3rd eye, you are going to get hit and you will get hurt more than a WAR/SAM/DRG leading to more MP useage.

Ok, here is how this works, basically, under 500+ defense, Rng, cor, sam, drg, war, nin, mnk, blu, pup all take comparable amounts of damage. if your drg/sam or war/sam gets caught with his seigan/TE down, he's getting rocked just like anyone else. In fact, I see more drg's, sam's and war's dieing in meripos when things go bad than rangers.

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Then there is the mob movement issue which can only be ameliorated by either standing in melee range and nerfing damage, or managing your hate and again nerfing your damage.

The movement issue, is only an issue, if your rng is retarded or if your other melee DD's are so gimped they cant keep hate off a 300-500 ranged hit. Even so, a ranger can take the "hit" to their damage, and it all depends on thier weapon of choice, and still outparse most comparably geared jobs. You have lazy rangers.

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And finally, many buffs that BRDs and COR's like to use don't help RNG damage. Marches, Madrigals, Fighters Roll are all pointless for the RNG.

again we're back to your choice, you are making the choice that YOU want to use specific songs and thats that. Well tbh, i havent heard a sam, drg, war or mnk cry a river if they got double minuet instead of march + minuet or double march. The saddest thing, and something that most people just dont quite get through their skulls, is that, we as a decently or well geared rng can thoroughly embarass 80% of the dd's out there in a bird or even mamool meripo EVEN WITHOUT YOUR SONGS/ROLLS. Yes, its awesome to get them, but if i dont, oh well, it just means that the other dd's actually stand a chance of getting within 10% of my parse.

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Sure none of those things will kill a meripo but they are enough to lead party leaders to think twice about getting a RNG when another of the big 4 is available and cost is enough of an issue to keep RNG's in the closet in favor of a cheaper 75 meripo job.

Again, the only person cost should have any effect on is the ranger himself. A pt leader not inviting a rng because they are trying to conserve a rng's wallet is a bit silly when/if that rng has their flag up. Worry about your own wallet, i'll take care of mine.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:23pm by Aryden

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:27pm by Aryden

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Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."

Oh how quickly we forget...apparently you dont remember when it was a ranger's JOB to be the puller, it was either you or the thf, and most thfs pussed out on my server. So dont give me any sh*t about "oh you go pull"

and on another note, since apprently you havent figured this one out, i'll clue you in as to how brds tend to do things. Pull 1-2 birds, sing a song, pull another bird, sing 2nd song, pull another, sing your 3rd, pull another sing your 4th. By the reckoning that it takes 8 secs to sing a song and 30 ish to kill a mob (pending on tp of Dd's at start), you should have a good 22 secs or so after your song to get out there and bring us the next mob. If your so **** bent on trying to get 2-3 or 4 songs out at once, then just bring back 3-4 birds.

I am so sick of prima-donna brds ranting on about how so very hard your job is, get over it, never, ever forget, that your #1 priority in a party is to buff the party members so that the mage(s) have MP and the melees do-what-they-do. Pulling is secondary and anyone with voke/ratt/songs/spells can pull a mob.

If pulling is so secondary, you would still want to do it in a merit party? I don't think so. I realize RNG's used to pull more often, but times have changed and BRD's pull faster without sacrificing the loss of damage. I've never seen a melee help pull besides provoking a *pop* that is right on top of them UNLESS the camp is totally clear and they are spreading out to find one. Anyone else know what I'm talking about here? I also understand how the mobs are staged. That doesn't change the fact that melee tend to kill too fast most of the time and extra buffs drop from the cycle due to pulling more mobs. Besides, if your melee are killing that fast, you don't need the extra buffs now do you. Unless you're only interested in your own e-peen. I never claimed to have a BRD sing all their jobs at one time. I said 32sec per cycle which is TRUE!. I know I try to stagger the rolls on COR so they don't wear off at the same time.

I'm not making any excuses for BRD's. The support jobs BRD, COR, and healers have the toughest role in a merit party, that's a fact. All you have to do on RNG is shoot your gun/bow/xbow and WS, big whoop. I can't believe how ignorant you are Aryden. Support classes clearly do more work and even if a BRD isn't the best one, they still do 10x the work you do.

I'm not making any excuses for BRD's. The support jobs BRD, COR, and healers have the toughest role in a merit party, that's a fact. All you have to do on RNG is shoot your gun/bow/xbow and WS, big whoop. I can't believe how ignorant you are Aryden. Support classes clearly do more work and even if a BRD isn't the best one, they still do 10x the work you do.

Thank you, cause the only job i have ever levelled, at all, in any game is Rng... Let me set you straight on something here guy:

1) The support job you choose, is only difficult if you make it that way. There are easy ways and hard ways to accomplish the same goals, if you choose to be obstinate, fine, your choice.

2) If your party needs a puller while your brd or cor buffs people, anyone should understand and be perfectly willing to shoot or voke of whatever they need to do to get the next mob in, only greedy self loving ******** stand around with their thumbs in their asses expecting other people to wear 10 hats at once. I pull all the **** time in meripos JUST SO the brd or cor can get in their buff cycles on the mage(s). Its called an actual functioning TEAM of people out for one goal.

3)YOUR JOB is to buff the party members. PERIOD, otherwise wtf use are you? Why would i fill a slot in a pt with a cor who doesnt buff, or a brd who doesnt either, you would be a waste of space. SO use your **** buff, OPEN your mouth and say "Hey i'm buffing, someone grab a mob or 2" and do what you do. **** man it's simple communication, the DD's in parties want merits/Xp and dont really give 2 ***** about how it gets to them as long as it keeps coming in. I have YET to ever hear any Dd in a meripo ***** or whine if asked to grab a mob or 2 while buffs are going up. So do NOT sit here and tell me you have the most difficult job on the planet because YOU cant make things run smoother. Yeah Rng is stupid easy, we all admit that and support jobs are added difficulty, but stop whining about it and do what you hav to to make your life easier and less QQ over it.

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Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."

Every day. I see Rng's being scooped up for meripos nearly as they put their flags up and quite often get /tells asking me to merit when there are a dozen drg's and sam's lfg.

That's funny because I've only meripo'd with a RNG twice in my 100's of thousands of limit points on COR. One had a Kraken club. Both times we performed suboptimally because the RNG's spike damage lead to hate control and MP issues and loss of chain because of lack of smooth timing on pulls. When the RNG"s were replaced with WAR's the chains went smoother and MP wasn't an issue.

I've never seen a melee help pull besides provoking a *pop* that is right on top of them UNLESS the camp is totally clear and they are spreading out to find one.

then you have partied with alot of lazy people, I always help pull on rng if I can, but rangers pulling is kind of dumb anyways, rangers are finishers, we use are ws to kill the mob, if we have to run to pull when mob isnt dead, we end up sitting on alot of mp.

and to last poster, if your rangers in party did subpar, its not the job, it was the player.

any ranger with an ouce of skill knows when is the best time to sidewinder to ensure the mob dies or is one hit from death when you end up pulling hate. If a ranger is doing a sidewinder in the first 50% of mobs health, then he sucks.

That's funny because I've only meripo'd with a RNG twice in my 100's of thousands of limit points on COR. One had a Kraken club. Both times we performed suboptimally because the RNG's spike damage lead to hate control and MP issues and loss of chain because of lack of smooth timing on pulls. When the RNG"s were replaced with WAR's the chains went smoother and MP wasn't an issue.

So my experience differs muchly from yours.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I have to agree with Xbob when i say, that was just a bad rng. Unfortunately, with the changes that were made to the job and the proclivity of people to flock like sheep to whatever is the new cool hot thing for their server, we received an influx of complete noobs to a job that, much like many others, needs intelligence, patience and control to perform correctly. Yeah i end up taking a few hits here and there in meripos, we all do, and yeah occasionally i **** up or my SW/SS didnt do quite enough, it happens, but a good rng controls those instances as much as they can and limits them to the best of their ability.

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Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."

Unfortunately, with the changes that were made to the job and the proclivity of people to flock like sheep to whatever is the new cool hot thing for their server, we received an influx of complete noobs to a job that, much like many others, needs intelligence, patience and control to perform correctly. Yeah i end up taking a few hits here and there in meripos, we all do, and yeah occasionally i @#%^ up or my SW/SS didnt do quite enough, it happens, but a good rng controls those instances as much as they can and limits them to the best of their ability.

Which is again the problem. Most of the population generally is average. So they take the easiest way out. Which is to play WAR or SAM in a meripo. Which is why I don't see many RNG in meripo. Because it does require skill and cash and even if done right most leaders will still pick a SAM or WAR or DRG or DRK first.

no because being slept by a mob that wakes up is a bad thing, and you dont have shadows/third eye to absorb damage.

Woosh!

And this whole argument is exactly why whenever I merit on BRD, I do so only within my LS. If I want to roll with a RNG, I make it three RNGs, COR, WHM/SCH or RDM and my BRD. If I want a melee group, then I'll do that.

If that is ALL you are doing as BRD in the party, I guaruntee you songs will be wearing off faster than you can put them back up. Add in recasting Shadows, occasional Finale on a Skoffin/Mamool, then 4 songs can even suffer the occasional drop to three.

And btw, I avoid birds like the plague. Call me old fashion, but I like eating good food. I also like empty camps, and that is much more common on Bahamut at MJSP than Birdies.

I have to agree with you there Cyth, however, i have bards all the time that have no issues with pull more than 2 birds or mobs at a time, sleeping them and rebuffing us while they sleep. My argument from earlier was not about how easy or difficult any of the jobs are in meripos, but how people get stuck in this single minded mentality of there being only one way to do something, thus really just making it harder on one's self and then having the audacity to whine about it. Hence why i so much prefer meriting with LS members.

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Sir CorLeonisX: "Nah, SE will just declare it an exploit to fight him with jobs over 75 since it's not the "proper" way to kill it, and just ban us all instead."

Well, pulling 2 mobs at a time is a matter of neccessity at MJSP. BST and DRG, assuming they've got pets up. Sleeping multiple mobs, or sleeping one and tanking another is no problem, but again this takes time away from being able to do a rotation including 5-6 songs.

Using Horde lullaby to keep 3 or more mobs slept is possible, but since your healer likely only has 2 sleeps and lullaby only lasts 33-36 seconds (instrument dependant), then this "can" cause problems. It won't always, but I'm pointing out it adds another element of unpredictability. And the last thing a BRD wants is three angry mobs waking up at the same time, 1 second into singing a buff.

Based on? How many RNG's have you seen in meripos? How many times have you merited on RNG?

How can a job that rarely ends up in a meripo be a premium meripo job? If it was a premium job for meripo it should be as frequently seen as SAM, WAR, DRG and DRK.

The fact is, while it can do comparable to superior damage to those "big 4", it has certain disadvantages that lead it to be second class.

Cost is one of the bigger reasons. Why pay for damage when you can get it for free with one of the other 4 jobs. Poor defense is another. Even if you are meticulous about shadows or 3rd eye, you are going to get hit and you will get hurt more than a WAR/SAM/DRG leading to more MP useage. Then there is the mob movement issue which can only be ameliorated by either standing in melee range and nerfing damage, or managing your hate and again nerfing your damage. And finally, many buffs that BRDs and COR's like to use don't help RNG damage. Marches, Madrigals, Fighters Roll are all pointless for the RNG.

Sure none of those things will kill a meripo but they are enough to lead party leaders to think twice about getting a RNG when another of the big 4 is available and cost is enough of an issue to keep RNG's in the closet in favor of a cheaper 75 meripo job.

Being a RNG I completely agree with everything you say. I would soon take my THF to a merit pt then my RNG (even though my RNG has pretty pimped out gear compared to my THF)

However, as a RNG and a COR, I will usually use buffs that help everyone. EX if we have a RNG, it'll probably end up being hunters / chaos or chaos / samurai roll.

Adjust the resolution of menus. The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting. If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.

I really can't say. I try to use it before barrage or slugshot when its up and honestly can't say I pull less hate. If it is an enmity reduction, it is minor

It also immediately wears after job abilities/weapon skills, whereas I can keep it up for a few shots on regular shots provided the monster isn't facing me.

Other than the ranged distance messages which are nice for us 360 users, I can't say the job update was terribly useful for ranger. The Velocity shot timer change was nice but the 5 min recast is still too long