yorue right i really do think bukowski was actually a lover even though straight away you might not extract that from him

i think bukowski is part of this larger type of human being

that require very intense ecstasy to justify existing

and that without that extra ecstasy, they become unrealized and thus completely dissatisfied with reality

mm i was thinking over this when i was watching tyler and OFWGKTA tagging a room. i think some skate magazine was paying them to do that i guess. but look at tyler

[youtube]sEsywb-vE7I[/youtube]

his tag is way better than everybody else. look at how much work he was putting into it.

he was looking for more ecstasy than everybody else

i argue that people like this...

bukowski, kurt cobain, jean michel basquiat, tyler the creator

they all require extra ecstasy to exist. and that without it, they actually will destroy themselves.

two conclusions:

1. suppress their desire to seek extra ecstasy and essentially dumb them down to the point that they no longer care to seek ecstasy anymore. this i would say is the job of psychologists who give out drugs that are designed stunt human ecstasy and advice that similarly is designed to suppress them in the same way

i base it on people who seem to really have intense relationships w/ the external world but sometimes i feel like that is true for everybody. its hard to really define because its a state that you drop in and out of constantly. some people are more flat and not as easy to go in and out or high/low like that. i wouldnt classify them as lovers outright but its not to say they dont do these things too. just not as much. but im just more interested in extreme people i guess.

i think in the same way that tyler was essentially looking for more ecstasy out of that wall with his spray paint can than everyone else in the same room, people (lovers) who seek extra ecstasy (bukowski, basquait, muhammad ali, miles davis) will go out into reality and always seek to create more ecstasy in the things they interact with in various ways. just like tyler with that wall and that spray paint can.

this is what pushes them to become artists, athletes, musicians, poets...

and this is the thing that causes them to have such grand thoughts and feelings that we are lucky enough to be exposed to. society can watch them and abstract some idea of what ecstasy they experience privately. hence the creation of our media obsessed culture which worships these types. they have become our new gods; they sit above us creating various types of ecstasy that we perhaps strive towards and secretly wish we were.

these types of people are very powerful.

so in the same way that they look out into reality and try to create and extract ecstasy out of various things, just imagine what happens when they try to create and extract ecstasy out of things that cant produce them.

these types of people can be the most terrible because they can look for ecstasy where it doesnt exist, and whats more, because of the intensity of the ecstasy they were seeking, the intensity of the hatred/depression that comes with its non-fulfillment can be equally great.

for example charles bukowski lamenting on his failure to extract the ecstasy he wanted out of his gf and then (lol...) in suddenly realizing the height of this failure, kicking her. you should watch the last king of scotland too. idi amin as played by forest whitaker gives a really good look at someone who expects extra ecstasy in places where there isnt any and the heights of both the immense ecstasy they can experience and the immense destruction that they can cause when they fail to realize it.

anyway my own conclusion on the matter to your question after saying all of this is that there are various types of ecstasy. charles bukowski hated people and thus, was incapable of extracting any feelings of ecstasy from them. he also hated nature, which he thought was boring, hence preventing him from getting any ecstasy out of that too. my feelings are that god, lets say, must have created a world of true ecstasy and false ecstasy. and that the accurate navigation of this world is what determines these ecstasy seeking human beings from either becoming a lover (like say muhammad ali) or a tyrant (like idi amin)

see i get the whole lovers concept, this last point is more what i was wondering about. what you meant by 'never come crashing down.' like the examples you listed, bukowski.. kurt cobain... these type of self destructive personalities are like gods to us. i think that was an accurate description. in their case they're like gods because they seem to express certain thoughts or feelings more accurately and more beautifully than we feel that we are capable of on our own. hence a more pure drug.

i don't believe they were simply born with any special insight or anything like that. i think they lived and they learned. they allowed themselves to live more completely in the moment, which meant higher highs and lower lows. it meant taking risks, and soon or later one's luck runs out. most of us seek stability rather than ecstasy, or some balance of the two. but you can't abstract this drug from stability. the process is integral to the production. the lows are what shape the highs. i think that's why so often these excessive personalities turn to drugs or booze.

i think athletes are different, but they often become self-destructive too in other ways. they push their bodies further and further trying to strive for this higher ideal.

maybe the art they produce is the ecstasy that never comes crashing down. the initial feeling that inspired the art might have died in the authors brain a long time ago but the sentiment still lives and speaks to the rest of humanity.

see i get the whole lovers concept, this last point is more what i was wondering about. what you meant by 'never come crashing down.'

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yeah sorry i had to swag it out

i guess more accurately my conclusion is that these types should realize that they are fundamentally different than other human beings. and that they have to realize what they truly are and the unique game that they are playing that the rest of humanity is not.

in doing this they can realize that they need ecstasy to exist and that without it they are going to suffer. hopefully, in realizing the true nature of what they are, they can get better at navigating what things actually bring true ecstasy vs false ecstasy.

this is the ideal though. the pragmatic way would probably be to give out meds and advice designed to, using your terms, make them seek stability instead of ecstasy. essentially, to strip them of the ecstasy that they were unable to fully ever control.

reggie_jax said:

maybe the art they produce is the ecstasy that never comes crashing down. the initial feeling that inspired the art might have died in the authors brain a long time ago but the sentiment still lives and speaks to the rest of humanity.

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true

its good that you brought up kurt cobain again earlier in your post. he is a good example of this. i think that he ultimately killed himself out of his inability to retain his....

ability to be kurt cobain

he was starting to get old and soon the day would come that he couldnt be a rock star. soon he would have to give up everything he was: his beauty, his presence, his youth, everything. the type of ecstasy that he created from his kurt cobain persona was so intense that it couldnt possibly be maintained forever. he possibly was so wrapped up inside of it that he no longer possessed the ability to extract ecstasy out of anything else. not humanity, not nature, not even his daughter was enough ecstasy to keep him on this earth.

what lives forever to us is this very intense creature though who had experienced really amazing states of existing as powered by very intense, but very limited, ecstasy. let it serve as a giant tome as to what happens when you can only extract a very intense, but very limited kind of ecstasy, i guess.