We're on the same page Rich. You educated me a while back (although as busy as you are you prob. dont remember, and I appreciated the info you gave me very much) on these little guys. I would really like to see yours in person some day. I remember you saying that there was a size difference, which is hard to believe as small as mine are (not doubting you, just saying mine are tiny). I would compare them in size to my Intermedius, significantly smaller than my Eldos for sure.

Its funny, at lunch my wife sent me a video of them courting and her laying. As long as I've had frogs she's never seen the "process" in action. She was really getting into it. Have to do a little looking when I get home.Derek

DKOOISTRA wrote:We're on the same page Rich. You educated me a while back (although as busy as you are you prob. dont remember, and I appreciated the info you gave me very much) on these little guys. I would really like to see yours in person some day. I remember you saying that there was a size difference, which is hard to believe as small as mine are (not doubting you, just saying mine are tiny). I would compare them in size to my Intermedius, significantly smaller than my Eldos for sure.

Its funny, at lunch my wife sent me a video of them courting and her laying. As long as I've had frogs she's never seen the "process" in action. She was really getting into it. Have to do a little looking when I get home.Derek

I do remember talking to you about them Derek, just wanted to touch on the problems of limited info and blood. I'm sure they are beautiful enjoyed frogs. When my name on lines and importance pops up it's one way to get me to post.I'll be letting some of the out of towners into my Dungeon for Frogday next year.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

I'm not speaking in terms of anyone or anything specific, just generalities. But peoples reputations do preceed them. I'd be more inclined to give some benefit of the doubt to someone who does have a good reputation as opposed to a known flipper like say oh I don't know....Taron. Remember, Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

Jon - Ft. Myers, FLHelp stop the spread of Chytrid! Disinfect your waste water before disposing of it and double bag all solid wastes please!!

randommind wrote:How does one know for sure that the frogs they are purchasing are in fact, site specific?

Collect them yourself by hand....other than that, it's the trust in who you are obtaining them from.

Has the "who you are obtaining them from" ever provided any proof to justify this trust?

Hey Wes, care to tell us all how you ended up trusting this guy? We've all caught in in so many lies we've lost track. You picked a real winner. But , I guess as long as they are real cheap and he gives away stuff in exchange for good feedback, it's all OK? You rewarding this thief makes you part of the problem in our hobby. Shame. Big time shame.

RichFrye wrote:Hey Wes, care to tell us all how you ended up trusting this guy? We've all caught in in so many lies we've lost track. You picked a real winner. But , I guess as long as they are real cheap and he gives away stuff in exchange for good feedback, it's all OK? You rewarding this thief makes you part of the problem in our hobby. Shame. Big time shame.

Rich, In an attempt to keep this thread on track, I will try to keep my response relevant to the topic at hand and avoid being dragged into the middle of you and Sidney's personal conflict.

While I have purchased frogs from Sidney, I have NEVER purchased site-specific pumilio from him. In fact, I am starting to lose faith that site-specific pumilio are even available. You are now stating that I am part of the hobbies problem and all I did was purchase some non-site specific frogs from a fellow hobbyist and inquire as to whether or not site-specific pumilio are even available. A problem for the hobby, hardly...a problem for you, possibly as it appears that you are the only individual offering these site-specific frogs and instead of explaining to me how you are able to offer them, you have labeled me a problem. If I were to guess, I would say that there are many froggers out there with your "site-specific" frogs who, for whatever reason, have chosen to merely take your word on this and not question these site-specifications. So would you mind providing some sort of proof to me, and everyone who has purchased frogs from you, how your "site-specific" frogs can be labeled as such?

RichFrye wrote:Hey Wes, care to tell us all how you ended up trusting this guy? We've all caught in in so many lies we've lost track. You picked a real winner. But , I guess as long as they are real cheap and he gives away stuff in exchange for good feedback, it's all OK? You rewarding this thief makes you part of the problem in our hobby. Shame. Big time shame.

Rich, In an attempt to keep this thread on track, I will try to keep my response relevant to the topic at hand and avoid being dragged into the middle of you and Sidney's personal conflict.

While I have purchased frogs from Sidney, I have NEVER purchased site-specific pumilio from him. In fact, I am starting to lose faith that site-specific pumilio are even available. You are now stating that I am part of the hobbies problem and all I did was purchase some non-site specific frogs from a fellow hobbyist and inquire as to whether or not site-specific pumilio are even available. A problem for the hobby, hardly...a problem for you, possibly as it appears that you are the only individual offering these site-specific frogs and instead of explaining to me how you are able to offer them, you have labeled me a problem. If I were to guess, I would say that there are many froggers out there with your "site-specific" frogs who, for whatever reason, have chosen to merely take your word on this and not question these site-specifications. So would you mind providing some sort of proof to me, and everyone who has purchased frogs from you, how your "site-specific" frogs can be labeled as such?

Good god, once again, for those to dull to know how to search, to new to know or just blinded by free/cheap frogs, pretty much everyone knows where my frogs came from, but you and Vinny. Search kids, search. Do some work.This all coming from the guy who entered my CR thread with the best of intentions.Have you read Ferrell's feedback? Yes, rewarding the dirtbags of this hobby makes you part of the problem. Especially seeing how many other perfectly great froggers also sell SR's pums. Gotta get them cheap frogs Wes?

Do some work and you'll find my proof. Do more reading and you should feel ashamed to even answer a Ferrell email. Shame.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

RichFrye wrote:Hey Wes, care to tell us all how you ended up trusting this guy? We've all caught in in so many lies we've lost track. You picked a real winner. But , I guess as long as they are real cheap and he gives away stuff in exchange for good feedback, it's all OK? You rewarding this thief makes you part of the problem in our hobby. Shame. Big time shame.

I am the above mentioned friend in florida. These were Sidney's exact words..." I actually have 15 holdback cristobals and 12 north popes Ive held back from my 4 pairs I would sell as unsexed adults fir $75 each if you take almirantes." I passed on all his frogs, including the Almirante which he claimed to be a 2 yr old unproven pair "F1 03' almirante old line"Less than a week later I saw a post on DB by a member showing off his new F1 09' Almirante from Sidney...

wohlerswi wrote: I have purchased 2 pairs of frogs from him in the past, and they were amazing... Will

Will--How would you feel about e-mailing me the pics Sidney sent you of your "09" Almirante so that I can compare them to the pics he sent me of the "03" Almirante?

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

RichFrye wrote:Good god, once again, for those to dull to know how to search, to new to know or just blinded by free/cheap frogs, pretty much everyone knows where my frogs came from, but you and Vinny. Search kids, search. Do some work.This all coming from the guy who entered my CR thread with the best of intentions.Have you read Ferrell's feedback? Yes, rewarding the dirtbags of this hobby makes you part of the problem. Especially seeing how many other perfectly great froggers also sell SR's pums. Gotta get them cheap frogs Wes?

Do some work and you'll find my proof. Do more reading and you should feel ashamed to even answer a Ferrell email. Shame.

Kinda rude man. I have attempted to search for this info, and have come up empty handed. Dull? maybe... New? Definitely, Blinded...hardly! From what I see, you either remain silent or choose to (like you did this time as well) avoid any explanation on site specific pumilio. Since Vinny and I are the only two individuals in the hobby who do not know where Rich Frye gets his site-specific frogs from, please would somebody, anybody speak on behalf of Rich and clue me in.

Found a website that had some good reading and came across this...think it is relevant....

Is it important to own only frogs with exact site specific data?This first important fact here is that the odds of any of your frogs or their offspring ever making back into the wild arevery close to zero. Frogs that are used for research and/or population control/reintroduction are tracked very precisely and are tagged often with GPS coordinates so that if and when they are reintroduced to the wild they will go to the exact location they were collected. One of the main points of contention with supporters of "site specific only" frogs is to prevent creation of hybrids in the hobby. The gray area comes in what is considered a hybrid, more on that later. I keep frogs for my enjoyment and they nor their offspring will ever be introduced back into the wild. That being said,I do not support creating "designer" frogs by crossing two clearly different morphs or speciesof dart frog. I don't think that claiming "site specific" frogs are more valuable does anything to help this cause. All it does is attempt to devalue frogs that come in without any site data. Not knowing the exact GPS coordinate of your animals does not mean that your frogs are crap and that breeding them to anything else without site data will create a hybrid. Prior to 2004 or somewhere close to that timeframe, the hobby existed for the most part without any animals that had site data. Recently (circa 2008) Understory Enterprises has begun exporting animals from Peru and these imports arecoming in with exact site data codes. Don't get me wrong, this is not a bad thing, but Imitators that have been in the hobby since the early 90s should not be deemed any less valuable than a recent "site specific" imitator. Use common sense and don't mix frogs that are clearly different morphs. If you are unsure, ask a veteran hobbyist, don't just post something on a forum. Know the experience of the person from whom your information comes. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know as much as you can about the animals you keep, but when you devalue other animals in promotion of your own opinion, it isn't good for the hobby. Animals with site data are no more or less valuable than animals without. A big downside to site specific data is that once released, the smugglers know exactly where to go to get that frog. This is the reason that exporters use codes to designate site specific animals. There are hobbyists that don't agree with me on this subject and some of them I know and respect, so get their opinions and make your own choice. If you choose to keep only morhps that have site data just don't devalue and trash the frogs that don't.

Also, as Wes has stated, can someone point me into a direction for searching....Ive used the search function, google, old threads on other forums and it seems that all i can find it people always asking about it and nothing else.

And now my opinion, and take it how ever you may. As a hobbyist it kinda sucks when you a come to the forum and read a lot of threads are just a bunch of he said she said bullshit, and bickering like little girls/boys. My advice to the two parties which seem to have to biggest "problem"(s), either post up your facts/proof of what is being asked for or claimed or shut up. Plain and simple and I dont like being so blunt but, w/e.

I voted for the "good people".Who ever is the breeder, as long as he takes care of his frogs in a "good maner" it is what matters to me. He can be a successfull beginner or a long time frogger it is about the same to me. I'm back into the hobby and I got my frogs from a breeder in Netherland as I bough him frogs years ago and they did well, I visited his frogroom and "agreed " with what he does. "Paperwork" proves close to nothing, at least over here, and I am way more attached to captive breed frogs than "legal papers". To me "history of frogs" is some commercial BS.From distance, I live in France and may have a quite distorted view of what i the frog hobby is in the US, but I am quite amazed at how agressive some of you guys are...

You are seeing (and reading) typical Aggressive American attitudes. It's our worst feature of our culture most times...and sometimes...it's our best. We are funny that way. The frog hobby is an exact micro-copy of our regular behaviour. I'm only a second generation American, but have been around long enough and traveled enough of the country to be sure of that.

Please don't let that argumentative and caustic attitude discourage you from being here.

It took another aggressive American (me) to restore order. Order has been restored.

Learning about Dart Frogs and caring for them is BACK on track. I assure you.

No way I get discouraged at being on DD I have spent 7 years of my life in the US (1993-2000) so I know quite well what "being" an American means.Spent many years on bulletin boards dedicated to the reef hobby, I started with Aqualink in 1997, later reefs.org and reef-central, and I was amazed at how people were friendly, something quite different from what I get over here (people are just very pretentious and arogant). I do make a clear difference between being caustic (I do like caustic people) and being agressive. Anyway, no big deal, nothing to worry about, I'm staying with you guys

Back to the poll, I like and prefer the "good people" when they really care about their frogs and wonder about their natural habitat. Four years ago I spent five weeks in Panama/Costa Rica because I wanted to see this typical habitat, get to know those frogs a different way, not only through what you can read on a bulletin board. Four weeks were spent in Bocas, visiting the archipelago and most of the islands and the last week was spent visiting places and people like Brian Kubicki at the CRAC.I like the "good people", they have no ego issues, no agressivity, no business and money issues you get to deal with. I don't care about money but about the frogs, the ones over there and the ones I have at home.

Thx for the good work Phil, as a former PDF bulletin board webmaster, I know what it takes to run such a place

K.

ps: already 12 years I came back home, lack of practice, my English is going down the drain. I hope it is still acceptable

Vinny,It's always best , when quoting someone, unless it's well know public domain, to give credit to the author. For good or bad.

Vinnner wrote:Is it important to own only frogs with exact site specific data?This first important fact here is that the odds of any of your frogs or their offspring ever making back into the wild arevery close to zero. Frogs that are used for research and/or population control/reintroduction are tracked very precisely and are tagged often with GPS coordinates so that if and when they are reintroduced to the wild they will go to the exact location they were collected.

This statement alone points out at least two things. One is that certain frogs which have site specific data can be reintroduced (as I have stated in the past , we all should know this has happened in the past, so it's more than possible, it's happened. So I don't get a "prove it" , once again, just look up Hawaiian dart frogs...).Two is that they are precisely "tagged" so the data is solid for breeding purposes. Something absolutely NOT able to be said with best guesses and those frogs which have been lied about, pertaining to lineage.I'll touch on out-crossing issues later.

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.