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"At that time, many practitioners of different martial arts pitted their strength against Ueshiba one by one, but no one was able to defeat him. Each was dispatched in turn with a Daito-ryu joint twisting technique. Word spread immediately in Kyoto and Osaka that a terribly strong martial artist was to be found at the Omoto Headquarters. He was repeatedly challenged to matches, but, of course, no one could defeat him."

A Unified Field Theory — Aiki and Weapons — Divertimento: Moderato Risoluto Posted by Ellis Amdur on May 19th, 2006
PART VII — Ante-Bellum: Bo & Jo
There are three aspects to staff arts.
1) Staff taking, staff throwing and illustrations of principles with the staff (the “jo trick,” for example). These are all Daito-ryu practices.
2) The solo jo form
3) Kumibo and kumijo forms — two person kata
Interesting articles- all worth the readers consideration.

That Takeda was by all accounts-even those who openly did not like the man-to be the finest Martial artist they had seen or felt, and that Ueshiba was seen by many to be unbeatable..the question remains; “Just what, were they doing?”

For those who may not have read or heard of these things before:

The bodies ability to connect to itself and use the ground can allow a person to send power through themselve like a current or wave. The evidence of those who do some of these things to various degrees are everywhere in the Asian arts. You will see it in Two forms of Daito ryu; Kodokai and Sagawa dojo, in Shioda, In Aikido, and in various Chineses arts. You will even find breath work and certain body training in systema.
At the start of the 20th century you had Judo's own "Aiki judo" man- Mifune.
Then you have the references to this stuff in E.J.Harrisons book. And for those whom I upset with my unthrowable comments- read Harrisons description of the Aikijujutsu men he met who when using this "power" as he called it, could not be thrown or pushed. This including a sixth dan judo man from the old days at the kodokan. Harrison’s book was published after the war but actually written much earlier. There you have a tough Judoka witnessing things he didn't think possible.
Then we have Don Draeger and Jon Blumming encountering Wang Shu chin. Don being picked up and thrown across the room without his feet touching and bluming getting wrecked while punching wang. Then Wang doing Sumo style slams on the houses post and beam framework and both that famous karate guy and Robert Smith witnessing and writing about it.

So......we have written accounts from English speaking authors, and Japanese authors, going back to the early twentieth century claiming to have seen, or felt the same thing we are claiming here.
In every sense, Nothing new. The same training they used still available to connect the body and to increase the use of power or strength and not muscle.Old knowledge, being passed by.
Oh well.

Dan

Kodo Horikawa (Daito ryu Kodokai) doing Jo manipulation as part of many jo exercises to demonstrate kokyu and connection. The fellow at the other end of the jo is Okomot sensei Of the Roppokai. He is still alive to ask about aspects of DR Jo training in the day, and about trying to hold the other end. There is a photo of him with two guys pushing as well. The idea is to stop the push, control the pusher, then manipulate the connection.

I don't know what it is you're trying to say in response to the fact that the Chinese Army does fairly codified qi/ki training things, Ted. If you disagree with my position about what is happening, why not posit something substantive as an alternative? I know you disagreed in the past with the putative idea of "paths", but that would still be a good place to start looking at the physics of what is happening. If it has a physical effect, we can track it, Ted. The only no-no is breaking the principle of the conservation of energy... injecting an unknown and unaccounted-for energy simply won't work as an explanation.

Regards,

Mike

I've mentioned this before but only in passing. This is all psychological, or more accurately applied psychology. There have been no objective detection of energy pathways that approximate the meridians used in traditional chinese medicine (TCM).

Energy levels within the human body has shown to be relatively weak compared to mechanical or natural sources. It is unlikely that an individual can utilize these levels to overtly affect the world. Various people have tried to promote systems similar to Prana/Chi/Qi/Ki in the west, but they were constantly rejected because of the lack of objective findings.

The people who practice these internal arts are amazingly average. There doesn't seem to be any physical differences between an internal arts master and the ordinary joe. However if the potential of the internal arts were only available to few, why would most people want to study it?

Internal training is not really training; it is untraining. How many times have you messed up a technique because your consciousness got in the way? You're trying to develop pure movement that comes from mind/body coordination without any interpretation by individual consciousness.

Perhaps the real question is not how Morihei Ueshiba was able to do his ki demonstration with the jo, but why everyone else can't do. it.

Last edited by tedehara : 05-21-2006 at 12:31 PM.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.About KiAbout You

I've mentioned this before but only in passing. This is all psychological, or more accurately applied psychology. There have been no objective detection of energy pathways that approximate the meridians used in traditional chinese medicine (TCM).

Energy levels within the human body has shown to be relatively weak compared to mechanical or natural sources. It is unlikely that an individual can utilize these levels to overtly affect the world. Various people have tried to promote systems similar to Prana/Chi/Qi/Ki in the west, but they were constantly rejected because of the lack of objective findings.

I was talking about force paths, Ted, so "energy pathways" is another discussion entirely (although there is some recent research showing that many 'acupuncture points' are related to overlapping fascial layers, if you're interested in that sort of thing). I'm saing that in any "ki test", if someone applies a force and and the testee is able to 'resist' that force, the phenomenon can immediately be described by static analysis of the forces involved. So despite anyone's personal "take" on whether it is psychology, the "Ki of the Universe", the relation of the "One Point" to "All Things", or whatever, we can begin any meaningful discussion and analysis just by looking at the forces involved, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that "ki" phenomena defy analysis?

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The people who practice these internal arts are amazingly average. There doesn't seem to be any physical differences between an internal arts master and the ordinary joe. However if the potential of the internal arts were only available to few, why would most people want to study it?

I dunno, Ted.... the difference between Andres Segovia and the ordinary joe didn't seem like much, but Segovia could play a mean guitar. Who'd a thunk it? What could be the difference between Segovia and ordinary people? Could it be that he trained assiduously at playing the guitar? I.e., knowing how to do these things and training them is the key element, IMO. Unless you're ascribing obtaining "ki powers" to something like the Holy Ghost entering your body?

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Internal training is not really training; it is untraining. How many times have you messed up a technique because your consciousness got in the way? You're trying to develop pure movement that comes from mind/body coordination without any interpretation by individual consciousness.

OK.... to me you're saying that the reason Segovia was so good at the guitar was that he was so relaxed when playing. I could agree with that, but I'd have to point out that first he had to learn to play the guitar. Same way with ki-skills and doing fune-kogi-undo and other Aiki-Taiso, Ted.... if all it was had to do with "getting your consciousness out of the way", it would be pointless to practice anything to do with Aikido.

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Perhaps the real question is not how Morihei Ueshiba was able to do his ki demonstration with the jo, but why everyone else can't do. it.

Maybe other people (a.) don't know how to train "ki", (b.) don't work out daily like Ueshiba did (he didn't just go unconscious and gain his skills), and (c.) they don't practice, practice, practice????

I was talking about force paths, Ted, so "energy pathways" is another discussion entirely (although there is some recent research showing that many 'acupuncture points' are related to overlapping fascial layers, if you're interested in that sort of thing). I'm saing that in any "ki test", if someone applies a force and and the testee is able to 'resist' that force, the phenomenon can immediately be described by static analysis of the forces involved. So despite anyone's personal "take" on whether it is psychology, the "Ki of the Universe", the relation of the "One Point" to "All Things", or whatever, we can begin any meaningful discussion and analysis just by looking at the forces involved, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that "ki" phenomena defy analysis? I dunno, Ted.... the difference between Andres Segovia and the ordinary joe didn't seem like much, but Segovia could play a mean guitar. Who'd a thunk it? What could be the difference between Segovia and ordinary people? Could it be that he trained assiduously at playing the guitar? I.e., knowing how to do these things and training them is the key element, IMO. Unless you're ascribing obtaining "ki powers" to something like the Holy Ghost entering your body? OK.... to me you're saying that the reason Segovia was so good at the guitar was that he was so relaxed when playing. I could agree with that, but I'd have to point out that first he had to learn to play the guitar. Same way with ki-skills and doing fune-kogi-undo and other Aiki-Taiso, Ted.... if all it was had to do with "getting your consciousness out of the way", it would be pointless to practice anything to do with Aikido. Maybe other people (a.) don't know how to train "ki", (b.) don't work out daily like Ueshiba did (he didn't just go unconscious and gain his skills), and (c.) they don't practice, practice, practice????

Regards,

Mike

Unless you can set-up a complex instrumentation that can measure forces within a body, I think any discussion on pathways of energy vectors is futile. I can say that if uke grabs your wrist and pushes, you're suppose to think of the energy as going straight down from the point of contact to the center of the earth, according to the Ki Society. Notice they no longer recommend thinking the force as disappearing into the one point/centre, or towards the body at all. That is because they observed people receiving the power by using that imagery.

I think your discussion of Koichi Tohei's use of energy pathways as interesting, but diametrically opposed to what K. Tohei is trying to do. He is not a big theorist and has mostly adapted his theories from his teachers - M. Ueshiba, T. Nakamura and T. Ogura. He is a teacher who is trying to get correct results from his students.

I don't think there is any one individual who completely understands the modern car. Fuel injection alone, uses chip technology and demands knowledge of electrical engineering. Yet there are millions of cars in the world today along with their drivers. Fortunately, knowing how to drive does not necessitate complete knowledge of the vehicle.

K. Tohei is like a driving instructor. He doesn't need to teach electrical engineering to have the student put in the key and start the ignition. His instruction is mostly concrete, simple and direct.

There is a Japanese word "geta" which has no English equivalent. It means taking theoretical knowledge and bringing it down into daily practice. That is the area that K. Tohei excels in, IMHO.

To continue the auto analogy, your internal arts master is like a pro race driver in a stock car while your average joe/jane is an ordinary driver in a regular car. On the highway, there would be no large difference between drivers, but on a NASCAR track the difference would be huge. Although they could be driving identical cars, it is their training that makes the difference.

Similarly, the internal martial artist is not physically different than anyone else, but their mind is different because of their training. Because their mind is different, they can use their body differently. Now we all know there are personal limits to training the human body, but what are the limits to training the mind?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.About KiAbout You

Unless you can set-up a complex instrumentation that can measure forces within a body, I think any discussion on pathways of energy vectors is futile. I can say that if uke grabs your wrist and pushes, you're suppose to think of the energy as going straight down from the point of contact to the center of the earth, according to the Ki Society.

It's easier than that, Ted. You grab my wrist. Assuming you apply a force in some direction, we can both quickly agree exactly which direction your force is moving.... no sweat. You must be getting a purchase on the floor, the walls, or someplace because if you didn't have any purchase you'd move away just by the impetus of your own force. So let's say you're pushing off the floor in some direction as the basis for the force you're applying to my wrist. We can determine that pretty quickly, also. My response and my purchase to the floor can be determined to a reasonable level pretty quickly, also. We can fairly easily draw a general force-diagram with beginning, ending, and resultant paths. We'll just rough it out, but it'll be close enough.

Then, if you can't move me or bend my elbow or whatever, we can determine roughly how much forces are involved and decide whether they are some mysterious force from the universe unknown or whether we can begin to pinpoint how this force is being generated. I'll be more than happy to do it with you, Ted. And you can use your no-mind or whatever to conjure up your forces and I'll use my fairly pragmatic approach. I'll bet we could come to some sort of agreement or consensus that can easily be described using the known terminology of western science and technologies.

I'm sorry but this is way beyond me. A physical force in one direction (a force with a vector) is a force in that direction. I really don't see how someone who is receiving that force just imagine that its in a different direction (towards the ground for instance) and actually do anything. If I'm pushing, running, waking south and run into you how can you redirect my motion to north for instance just by thinking about it. This is a phenomenon that makes absoultely no logical sense to me. Again this makes sense to me only if the person doing the pushing is brainwashed or hypnotized by the person who is redirecting it. Therfore the person pushing, is really not pushing in the direction they think they are, just thinking or believing that he/she is pushing and there is no physial force at all.

If you push against something in some direction, the object has to push back with the same force and opposite firection to keep from moving. If I push on something and it pushed back at a different direction, there will be movement either I will push it over to the way I'm pushing or it will push me over to the way its pushing, but typiclaly it will be a combination of the two and we both will move in a combined direction of the two forces/directions. Does that make sense?

True, but a force in a given direction can always be altered. This is at the bottom of all Aikido waza - at both the gross (i.e. architectural) and subtle (i.e. kokyu) levels. In short, we change the direction of a force in Aikido all of the time - no matter what our skill level. We do not have to keep a force on its given vector and treat it thusly or not at all.

I think a tendency for some folks is to think too abstractly - even on the side of folks that are attempting to think scientifically. When this happens, a person tends to think only in terms of one or two levers and/or only one or two vectors - both of which are supposed to capture the totality of what uke and nage are doing. This will always lead one astray - all the while making everything look sound in terms of reason. Rather, I think one has to think more concretely - in particular, I think one has to think anatomically. This will allow one to note that because of the structure of the human body one is obviously talking about many levers and many vectors whenever one is attempting to delineate either a pushing or pulling energy - even when that energy is transversing across only one plane. In this case, a push toward the body, which is itself made up of many levers and vectors, can be aimed or absorbed downwardly because the body being pushed has many levers at its disposal, levers that can work at an anatomical level to redirect force (e.g. a push or a pull) one way over another - each lever doing a bit of the task of redirecting, etc. There are many examples of this in both the natural (e.g. a river in a rocky canyon) and cultural world (e.g. pinball). Additionally, one has to remember that the initial push or pull, being itself made up of many levers and vectors, exists because of the original relationship it has or is trying to have with the levers and vectors found in the object/body it is pushing. This means, that as the body of the pushed is being reorganized to redirect the original pushing energy downward, the pushing energy is subsequently losing its structural integrity as it is having to relate to changing/adapting levers and vectors - levers and vectors that now do not so easily allow the original push to be defined as a "push." In other words, in a codependent system (e.g. the human body, the physical universe), once you change one factor, you change the whole. As you reorganize your own body for redirecting a force, you simultaneously reorganize that force. Tactically, this most often means, "you get stronger, they get weaker."

In my opinion, joining with others here, it is not the case that one imagines and then "presto," a force is redirected. This is not a matter of "think about it and then it will come." However, at the level of practice, (what I will call) the micro-management of all of the body's relevant levers are often more easily processed for redirecting a force via tools like the imagination (thought imagery, etc.) than they are via tools like intellectually grounded diagrams. In my experience, this is because many of the levers involved are often not under our conscious control (for many folks) and also because many of the levers involved are very subject to psychological (i.e. mental, emotional, spiritual) influences. Nevertheless, the fact that we can use our imagination and/or various types of thought imagery does not mean that the use of such levers is para-normal and/or beyond scientific truth - that it is not open to intellectually grounded diagrams. Additionally, the fact that we all have an imagination does not mean that we can all "just imagine" our way into the correct anatomical positioning for redirecting energy one way over another.

I agree with Paul... you cannot "redirect" or "alter" a force going in one direction to another. Uke's force is uke's force... although there are ways to manage his force.

I think Ted was perhaps suggesting a visualization that helps trigger your own body into correctly *handling* an incoming force in a passive manner, not actively leveraging or whatever the incoming force. If Uke presents a force with a horizontal and vertical component you have to be able to deal with those components... they don't go away. I.e., you may *think* you have taken his incoming mainly-horizontal force and "converted" it into a vertical force going to the center of the earth, but trust me, you'd better have a good coefficient of friction at the sole of your foot.

Granted, there are some tricks of kokyu manipulation, but frankly I get tired of saying the same things over and over, so I'll relent this time. ;^)

Is deflection not possible then? For me it is, and "deflection" would mean that we can redirect or alter a given force. That is where I was coming from.

Maybe you can explain the difference you are wishing to make between what I said and what you said throughout the thread, e.g. "So the *trick* is that Tohei redirects forces and that can be taught fairly quickly, in a rudimentay fashion to most beginners."

Maybe you can explain the difference you are wishing to make between what I said and what you said throughout the thread, e.g. "So the *trick* is that Tohei redirects forces and that can be taught fairly quickly, in a rudimentay fashion to most beginners."

Tohei redirects his own forces or sources them from where he wants and directs them where he wants.... but he is dealing with his own mind/body ability to manipulate forces, not manipulating Uke's force.

...but he is dealing with his own mind/body ability to manipulate forces, not manipulating Uke's force.

Are you talking about absorbing uke's force into the body of nage? The term "manipulate" which can mean simply "affect change" would seem to work in describing any willfull directing of uke's efforts (a change in vector is a change in force, since "force" is a vector quantity...as I recall anyway...physics class was a while ago).
Take care,
Matt

Are you talking about absorbing uke's force into the body of nage? The term "manipulate" which can mean simply "affect change" would seem to work in describing any willfull directing of uke's efforts (a change in vector is a change in force, since "force" is a vector quantity...as I recall anyway...physics class was a while ago).

Hmmmmm. I'm trying to think of a simple (but limited; not complete) example to given an idea. OK, think of this. Uke is attacking with his fist straight out what he thinks is a 4'x8' sheet of plywood (representing Nage, in this limited example) directly facing Uke so that he is coming straight in the plywood. But let's say that the plywood, even though it looks square-on to Uke, is actually tilted with the bottom of the plywood somewhat closer to Uke than the top. The fist hits and Uke is bounced back and upward to a large part due to his own forces. We could angle the plywood (but Uke can only see the plywood as facing directly at him) downward and Uke's own force will help knock him downward. We could tilt the plywood to the side, etc.

In the examples, Uke's force is what it is, but Nage's force is other than what it appears. So Uke's force is not changed, it is added to ("aiki"). This is what Shioda, Sunadomari, and others do when they are showing what they consider the heart of "Aiki". One technique is all techniques.

This sounds a lot like deflection to me. I'm assuming you want to make a distinction here (for good reason I'm guessing), so I'm wondering why you would say that uke's force has remained the same (i.e. "you cannot 'redirect' or 'alter' a force going in one direction to another") when it fact it has been deflected, manipulated, and redirected (i.e. back and upward from straight forward).

Right now, it seems that you are saying it can be redirected and/or altered, etc., but that from uke's subjective point of view it is not. As you can imagine, I was not trying to speak about uke's subjective point of view, since I didn't think that Paul was either. I was trying to speak from the point of view of uke's force being, for example, bounced back and upward (i.e. altered).

If you get a chance, and wouldn't mind too much, perhaps you can point out why it is not in one's interest (in terms of understanding) to say that uke's force can be altered but that it is in one's interest to say that uke's force can be bounced back and upward. I'm imagining your experience with teaching this stuff has led you one way and not another and that this is behind your misgivings concerning the words "alter" and/or "redirect."

This sounds a lot like deflection to me. I'm assuming you want to make a distinction here (for good reason I'm guessing), so I'm wondering why you would say that uke's force has remained the same (i.e. "you cannot 'redirect' or 'alter' a force going in one direction to another") when it fact it has been deflected, manipulated, and redirected (i.e. back and upward from straight forward).

There's a distinction in physics, David. I cannot "alter" the incoming force itself; it is what it is. I can do vector addition to the force to change the resultant ("deflection" would be one of those ways of addition), but I cannot alter his original force (like making it into a vertical force when it was a horizontal force). All I can do is add or subtract. It seems like a convoluted distinction, but you have to be accurate when you describe forces. The forces Uke gives are the forces he gives; I "aiki" by adding to his forces, not by "changing" them... because they are what they are.

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Right now, it seems that you are saying it can be redirected and/or altered, etc., but that from uke's subjective point of view it is not. As you can imagine, I was not trying to speak about uke's subjective point of view, since I didn't think that Paul was either. I was trying to speak from the point of view of uke's force being, for example, bounced back and upward (i.e. altered).

We're getting mired in semantics, David. If you understand how to manipulation of your own forces is done, this would be a good time to drop the semantics and contribute in that way.

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If you get a chance, and wouldn't mind too much, perhaps you can point out why it is not in one's interest (in terms of understanding) to say that uke's force can be altered but that it is in one's interest to say that uke's force can be bounced back and upward. I'm imagining your experience with teaching this stuff has led you one way and not another and that this is behind your misgivings concerning the words "alter" and/or "redirect."

You cannot "alter" Uke's force because it is what it is; you can only do vector addition to it. That's all I mean. The three-dimensional components of the original force do not disappear.

Maybe this video clip I showed before will help in the visualization. Uke pushes; Nage adds to the push in a simple way and has the "internal strength" to add a bit more oomph to it. In no way is Uke's force from Uke "altered"... it is responded to with vector addition because Nage has the ability to generate forces in the direction he chooses from the part of the body he chooses. I hope that makes it clear what I meant, despite the semantics.

I forget where I heard it, but some tatsujin at one time or another said, "everyone thinks this is about using more power, more energy etc etc. It doesn't work that way. On contact ,you simply subtract 100%<absorb the oncoming energy> then apply 20% of your own, but in a concentrated,coordinated manner."
The stuff he was talking about wasn't applying to external vector/deflection either, but rather the force vectors created "inside" your body (naibu no ugoki内部の動き）.

Thanks for the reply. This makes sense - as does your call for accuracy in terms of terminology. I suppose that I was using the word "alter" in a less than scientific manner then (and perhaps, unknowingly, too ambiguously) - trying to refer to what you are calling "vector addition." I see your point but I would still tend to equate "vector addition" with the common sense term, "redirect."

Today I showed a couple of my engineer buddies a couple tricks. One being the unbendable arm the second being the unliftable body. Anyone can do them. I asked them to grab me by my forearms, stiffened up, thought of being light, and they lifted me no problem. I then repeated the same thing but relaxed and though that I was rooted to the ground and they could not lift me. You should have seen their faces. I got them to try it too and it worked the same way for them when being the person being lifted. Being the analytical people that they are, they had an answer why it works. They said that although they were totally unaware that the mind can work in this way and were totally blown away, it was pretty simple why they could not lift me. They said that when I stiffened up and though up I allowed my center of gravity (CG) to be lifted striaght up. When they tried again with me relaxed my body naturally started shifting the CG forward or back making it impossible for them to balance me and apply an upward force of enough significance that they could lift me. This makes a lot of sence to me and to them. As I said it opened their minds a lot about what is possible and how the human brain can naturally allow the appropriate mussles to do the proper thing and proper shifting.

We then started to discuss the Jo-trick and how that could be done. Unfortunately with our understanding of physics, the only thing we came up with is that its impossible to do. If you hold the jo out 4 feet and have a guy apply 100lb force to the end of the jo, horizontally. The Uke's wrist must withstand 400 ft/lb of torque acting on it. If the wrist is locked and for the sake of argument locked in place about a foot from the Uke's CG the torque on the CG is about 500 ft/lbs. That is a maximum torque of a V10 Dodge Viper engine. How exactly can a human body counteract a torque like that. As I said before, I must see it and feel it to believe it.

For the ones that claim they can do the Jo trick, will you be at any seminars near Alberta, Canada in the near future? i will surely take a drive to wherever you are just to experience this unmovable jo...

We then started to discuss the Jo-trick and how that could be done. Unfortunately with our understanding of physics, the only thing we came up with is that its impossible to do. If you hold the jo out 4 feet and have a guy apply 100lb force to the end of the jo, horizontally. The Uke's wrist must withstand 400 ft/lb of torque acting on it. If the wrist is locked and for the sake of argument locked in place about a foot from the Uke's CG the torque on the CG is about 500 ft/lbs. That is a maximum torque of a V10 Dodge Viper engine. How exactly can a human body counteract a torque like that. As I said before, I must see it and feel it to believe it.

Let's apply a test to your basic force and vector physics. The test is a basic hand shake.

Find someone proficient in Aikido who is small and not muscular. Then find an uke who is very muscular with great hand strength. Have them shake hands and let uke apply an iron grip until tori taps from discomfort and/or pain. So, the full force of uke's hand directly applies to tori's hand and tori feels it.

Now, for the test. Go back to the handshake, but this time, as uke squeezes, let tori shift his/her weight through the handshake and through uke's center. Load weight onto uke (or however you describe it). Do this in a relaxed, slight manner. Now, uke can squeeze all he/she wants and nothing happens to tori's hand. I've had weight lifters try this on me and their face actually turns red from their attempts to squeeze my hand. Uke feels as if they are squeezing with 110% of their muscles. Tori feels nothing. Why? Because the force of their strength is neutralized, redirected, altered, whatever you want to call it. You can physically see it happen because uke's shoulders will rise upwards.

It's a silly little thing to do and can be taught to anyone. What it teaches you, though, is that things aren't always as perceived. Uke believes that he/she is using 100% of their strength and force. If you ask them afterwards (but before you explain), they will tell you that they were squeezing with everything they had. But, in reality, you've changed the dynamics such that they aren't utilizing their full force.

I don't do the "jo trick" and haven't ever tried. But, maybe the above example can help you understand that there are *rarely* any situations that involve just basic force and vector physics in relation to Aikido and humans. So, your analyzation of the jo and 400-500 ft/lb of torque isn't applicable.

I agree that I don't like Paul's analysis, but that's mainly because even with the jo being held obviously low by Ueshiba, Paul attributes a "horizontal force" and even with Uke obviously doing a great deal of faking, Paul says "100 pounds". I think Paul may be long on math skills and short on observational skills. C'mon, Paul. For some reason there is a tendency in everyone "analysing the jo trick" to attribute extreme values to force, torque, etc., instead of of more moderate values. Get up against a wall sometime, hold a set of bathroom scales to your chest and watch as your partner tries to apply 100 pounds of force.

Mark, what you pointed out was good and it's a central element of the start to jin/kokyu manipulation. However, because of the odd position Ueshiba is in with the jo, it's very hard for him to do more than a very elementary attempt at manipulating Uke's push. So the focus on withstanding torque is fairly important here.... Ueshiba is showing how strong his ki/qi "sheeting" is, as far as I see it.

I have never tried the hand shake example that you mentioned above and don't know anyone that has. Perhaps I can try it, but I'd like a little better description of what I should be concentrating on and doing. In any event, we are both basically saying the same thing I guess. I have been saying this in my pervious posts. The Uke maybe feels and believes that they are pushing on the jo, but they really arent. If they were, there is too much of a mechanical advantage for the tori to overcome. This goes back to my theory that this trick is done by the tori somehow brainwashing or hypnotizing the uke in believeing that they are pushing real hard when they are really not. Please let me know if I'm full of it...

Mike, when I said that assumed 100lb of force I wasnt refferring to that particular video clip of Ueshiba and 1 uke. He has performed the same trick with two and three ukes in the past. I don't believe 100 lb of force is so huge if one, two or three ukes were really trying to push on the jo. Now if we start assuming that there is some faking going on, then why even discuss this trick. If the uke fakes it then anyone can do it and there is no point in this discussion.

I hear from people on this forum (Dan for instance) that they can do the Jo trick while the ukes are sincerely pushing. If thats the case I want to know how. If they say, well the fake it. Then I say ok thats the answer that I can understand and believe.

I think early on it was suggested that the trick was an exaggeration (see post #9) of sorts. Mike is here saying "obviously faking." Etc. Additionally, we have a quote from one of the pushers of said demonstration (i.e. same trick, with osensei, different folks pushing, different time, different location) outright saying that he was not in reality pushing all that hard - and that that had a lot to do with the trick "working" (i.e. working as it appeared).

I think of brainwashing as something else. I do not think that the skill here is of folks being led to believe they are pushing when in fact they are not - though there is obviously some redirection, etc., going on. This is not a trick of that kind of subconscious deception. If it was, said pusher would not have said what he was saying. Rather, in his statement, he is fully aware that he is not pushing all that hard, and even that he was appearing to push harder than he was. Sometimes exaggeration is just that - exaggeration. The exaggeration, in this case, in my opinion, comes from a cultural component (i.e. the pressure to make one's teacher/founder look "good" during demonstrations). This is in fact how the above mentioned pusher explains his level of exaggeration.