Dale Griffis (1) testimony, E/B Trial

Dale Griffis (1) testimony, E/B Trial

PRICE: was in Capitol Magazine, Denver, Colorado, July 15, 1984, in which youre attributed to, made that quote?

FOGLEMAN (?): Your Honor, I think the proper way, whether he made the quote, not whether he read an article in which its attributed to it.

PRICE: Well he said he couldnt remember the quote, Judge, and I just wanted to quote the source.

THE COURT: He said he didnt know what you were quoting from.

PRICE: Alright, you mean as far as the book I have right here? Alright, this is the book, Pursuit of Satan by Robert D. Hicks, which discusses both your background and your philosophy, and your methods and techniques. That quote comes on p. 86.

THE COURT: Did you make that statement at any time?

GRIFFIS: I, uh, I know Don Beard and I may have made that, yes.

PRICE: Alright, nothing further at this time, your Honor.

(pause)

FORD: Help me out just a little bit, Mr. Griffis. Or is it Dr. Griffis?

GRIFFIS: Whatever you wish.

FORD: What year did you graduate from high school?

GRIFFIS: 55

FORD: And where was that?

GRIFFIS: In Tiffin, Ohio.

FORD: In Tiffin, Ohio. Alright, and where did you go to technical school?

GRIFFIS: Terra Technical School in, ah, Fremont, Ohio.

FORD: And what was your course of study there?

GRIFFIS: Police science.

FORD: Police science. And how long was that endeavor of study?

GRIFFIS: Thats a two-year course.

FORD: And when did you graduate?

GRIFFIS: (sigh) 1974.

FORD: 1974. What did you do

GRIFFIS: counselor

FORD: what did you do

GRIFFIS: counselor, at the same time I was going to that school, I was going to Heiderberg College.

FORD: Okay, hang on just a second. Now what did you do between 1955 and 1974? Between high school and graduating from technical school with a degree in police science, and thats a two-year associate degree?

GRIFFIS: Yes

FORD: Kinda like from a community college?

GRIFFIS: Well, I, I started at, at Western Reserve University, and then I went into the Army.

FORD: Is that sorta like a community college?

GRIFFIS: Which one is that, sir?

FORD: Where you got the police science degree?

GRIFFIS: Terra Techniyes it is

FORD: That was, were you a full time student for that two year period of time?

GRIFFIS: Did I attend classes on, uh, yeah.

FORD: You know, I mean some students go half, they take half a load and work part time, they, or something, they

GRIFFIS: I was taking half a load from Terra Tech and half a load at, from Heidelberg at the same time.

FORD: Okay. So you were, you were getting your, your two year degree in techniin police science from community college at the same time you were enrolled in a program for a 4 year degree from an accredited college or university?

GRIFFIS: Both of them are accredited colleges.

FORD: Okay, but the technical college does not offer a four-year degree program?

GRIFFIS: No sir.

FORD: It does not offer a B.A. or a B.S.?

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: Okay, so you were enrolled at a four-year institution at the same time you were enrolled at a two-year instit--at the community college?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: What year did you get your B.A.?

GRIFFIS: (pause) It was the following year.

FORD: 1975?

GRIFFIS: Yes. No! 1976.

FORD: 1976. What year did you enroll, what year did you enroll in the, uh, what was the name of the four year institution?

GRIFFIS: Uh, Heidelberg College.

FORD: Eider

GRIFFIS: Heidelberg!

FORD: College?

GRIFFIS: Yes sir.

FORD: And what town is that located in?

GRIFFIS: Its in Tiffin.

FORD: Its in Tiffin. Okay, what year did you enroll there?

GRIFFIS: 1970.

FORD: 1970?

GRIFFIS: Yeah. I, I started under the, uh, law enforcement, uh, LEEA Program.

FORD: What year did you enroll in the, uh, technical college?

GRIFFIS: (blows out air) I cant, I cant remember specifically.

FORD: Okay. The entire time that you were involved as a student at Heidelberg College, were you also a full time police officer?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay. Okay. When did you enroll in Pacific University?

GRIFFIS: Columbia PacificUniversity?

FORD: Yes. Never heard of it, thats why

GRIFFIS: 1980.

FORD: 1980?

GRIFFIS: Thats my (unintelligible) recollection, right around 1980.

FORD: Now, this is athis is athis is a mail order college, isnt it? You

GRIFFIS: Universi--

FORD: You send inyou send indont they run a television ad, where you can send inhave you seen it on TV, where you can send in a request for what you want your degree in, and then theyll send you back information on how to get that degree? Is that the same college?

GRIFFIS: To the best of my knowledge, no.

FORD: Okay. When did you finish? You started in 1980. When did you obtain your masters degree?

GRIFFIS: I finished it in, uh, (pause) 82.

FORD: 82. And when did you get your PhD?

GRIFFIS: Uh, in 84.

FORD: In 84. Okay. Whatwhat was the title of your dissertation?

GRIFFIS: Mind Control, Cults, and Their Effects on the Objectives of Law Enforcement.

FORD: Mind Control, Cults, and Their Effects on Law Enforcement.

GRIFFIS: On the objectives of law enforcement.

FORD: On the objwhat are the objectives of law enforcement?

GRIFFIS: Maintain peace

FORD: Okay.

GRIFFIS: keep law and tranquility, protect the citizens.

FORD: Okay. What classes did you take between 1980 and 1982 to obtain your masters degree?

GRIFFIS: What cl

FORD: What classes

GRIFFIS: I testified

FORD: Im asking you what classes

THE COURT: Whavoid repetition

FORD: I didnt hear him answer the name of any classes that he took.

THE COURT: (unintelligible)

FORD: What classes did you take?

GRIFFIS: I told you I was in correspondence and I was with one of the, uh, of two people who were monitoring my, uh, work.

FORD: What classes did you take?

GRIFFIS: II told yI answered that before, none.

FORD: You did not take any classes. Is thatI just wanna understand from

GRIFFIS: Cuz your question was during that period of time

FORD: Between 1980, when you enrolled, and 1982, when you got your masters degree, what classes did you take to give youtake you from having a B.A. to a masters degree? What classes did you take?

GRIFFIS: I answered that. I didnt take

FORD: No classes. Okay, between 1982 and 1984 when you became a PhD, what classes did you take?

GRIFFIS: None.

FORD: None. Okay. Between 1980 and 198

THE COURT: Just, just, just a minute. By classes, are you talking about enrolled in a named description course on a day-to-day basis? Is that what youre asking?

FORD: Kinda like Contracts 101, did he ever take that?

THE COURT: Okay. Did, did you follow a prescribed course of study, uh, through a mentor, or a, a, a

GRIFFIS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right.

FORD: Can you justcan we ask him to describe that, what that prescribed curriculum was?

GRIFFIS: Yes. We, we sat down, uh, uh, and I went over, uh, the various, uh, (pause) are you

GRIFFIS: Okay. I had, uh, first of all, a treatise, er, that I had to put together, which consisted I believe of about 95 pages which explain, uh, graphics, and diagramming, and methodologies for small police agencies in doing, ah, intelligence diagramming. To do that, it required, uh, quite a series of, uh, texts (note by Sallythat word might have been tests instead of texts), I had to go through with, uh, the actual working, uh, relations and meeting and discussing with analysts throughout the United States how the procedures were done. Also, uh, I had attended, uh, four courses on intelligence, uh, operations and graphics, and I went back to the people who, uh, uh, designed those courses, and, uh, worked through them, and then we started putting the, uh, papers together.

FORD: So in other words, the curriculum was designed just for you. No established curriculum, but its a curriculum to meet your individual objectives, your individual time constraints.

GRIFFIS: My ind

FORD: (unintelligible) Youve gotta take these classes, that classes, and once you take these classes, and, uh, and complete certain coursework, then well give you a degree, or do you get to basically determine what it is you wanna do to get to that degree?

GRIFFIS: No, its not what I wanted. I discussed what Imy objectives were, and they told me what I had to do to obtain those objectives.

FORD: What did you have to do to get the masters degree? Your Honor, Im not trying to be repetitive cuz I clearly dont understand how he gets his masters degree.

GRIFFIS: I told you, I, I went, and I had a series of books I had to read, I had a series of interviews I had to comport (?) with, I had, uh, a series of people who I, ah, had correspondence, and also I went back on four courses I had taken as a police officer in intelligence work, and, uh, between this working plus working with the mentors who were assigned to me, then I started to put the work together.

FORD: Did your mentor have any education or background in, in police work?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay, did he have any education and background in the occult?

GRIFFIS: For masters level?

FORD: Any background.

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: Aafter you got your masters degree, what courses did you take to get your PhD?

GRIFFIS: The same type of work I did for my Ph or my masters.

FORD: Correspondence courses.

GRIFFIS: I worked through mya series of mentors, I talked with, uh, approximately 500 people during my ISP and interviewed them.

FORD: But, does that mean you did not take any classes? To get from your masters to yourdid you take any classes?

THE COURT: The question probably should be did you follow a prescribed course of study?

FORD: Your Honor, they can ask him that question. Im asking what classes?

THE COURT: Well, Im gonna ask him that. Did you follow a prescribed course of study that was designated, uh, by your, er, instructors?

GRIFFIS: Yes I did.

FORD: And what classes were in that prescribed curriculum? What classes?

GRIFFIS: Uh, I think, uh, counselor, Ive answered that.

FORD: Is the answer, NO classes?

GRIFFIS: Yes, I answered that before.

FORD: Okay, so all of your education, lemme ask you this, between 1980, when you enrolled, and 1984, when you graduated as, with a PhD, were you a full-time police officer?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay. And where were you employed as a full time police officer between 1980 and 1984?

GRIFFIS: Tiffin, Ohio Police Department.

FORD: Okay.

GRIFFIS: Rank of captain.

FORD: How, how were you accepted into enrollment at Columbia Pacific University?

GRIFFIS: I had to fill out a, uh, several series of papers including all my education, background, experience.

FORD: Did you ever fill out a little flyer like this

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

FORD: that says, Call toll-free for information?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

FORD: Have you ever seen whhave you ever seen how theycall toll-free for information on how to become a doctor?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

FORD: Did you attend a graduation ceremony?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir, I did.

FORD: And whdid you attend one in 1982?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

FORD: In 1984?

GRIFFIS: Yeah, I most certainly did.

FORD: How many, other than the graduation ceremony that you attended in 1984, whhow many other times were you in California, on campus?

GRIFFIS: I think I testified about that before. That was four or five times.

FORD: Four or five times. Okay. What is a nontraditional group? What is that?

GRIFFIS: It can be either a cause-orientated (sic) or belief-orientated (sic) group operating in society, at which time, uh, in my training they teach them that they, people are using or working around manevolent (sic) tendencies.

FORD: Worworking around what?

GRIFFIS: Manevolent tendencies.

FORD: What?

GRIFFIS: Breaking the law.

FORD: Okay. What is a, whats an example of one of these groups? Is there an example of one of these groups that youve identified, and, and, know who, know who their members are?

GRIFFIS: Yeah, Ive worked, keep in mind Ive been working these since 1967

FORD: Well then you oughta have lots of examples. Gimme a

GRIFFIS: Yeah.

FORD: Whats an example

GRIFFIS: Crips, Bloods are cause-orientated (sic), uh, I have run into a lot of, uh, occult-type cults throughout the United States where kids have, uh, done all types of activities, uh, criminal in nature, whfrom simple malicious destruction of property up to and including death.

FORD: Okay, now are those belief-oriented groups or cause-oriented groups?

GRIFFIS: The, these occult cults are belief-orientated (sic) groups.

FORD: In other words, their beliefs motivate them to do, break the law.

GRIFFIS: Help them. Yes sir, they do.

FORD: Okay, and a cause-oriented group is someone who might break the lawwhy, why might they break the law, a cause-oriented group?

GRIFFIS: Theyre either out for, uh, drug, uh, movements. Theyre out for, um, money. Theyre out for various type of different causes.

FORD: Okay. They alsogangs?

GRIFFIS: I, you can, theres another term that you can affiliate with them. Gangs. Street gangs.

FORD: Okay, what is the term you affiliate with gangs?

GRIFFIS: I use, uh, some people just call them gangs.

FORD: Gangs. What do you call them?

GRIFFIS: Gangs or non-traditional groups, dependent upon the individual setting.

FORD: All right. (clears throat) Have you ever studied a non-traditional group in the State of Arkansas?

GRIFFIS: (long pause) Yes, I had a, uh, I had a, uh, a call. One. One.

FORD: Did you ever, have you ever been to the State of Arkansas and conducted any field investigations?

GRIFFIS: Field investigations? No, sir.

FORD: Okay, prior to getting involved in this case, had you ever been to the State of Arkansas in this line of work?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir, I have.

FORD: Okay, and when was that?

GRIFFIS: I cant tell you, uh, exactly, uh, the date it was, but I was a guest of, uh, Pulaski County coroner, and I, uh, gave a lecture, uh, and I think there were a couple hundred people there.

FORD: But that, were you there to lecture in the State of Arkansas or were you there to make an investigation? Have you ever been to the State of Arkansas involved in an investigation?

GRIFFIS: HavI answered that. No.

FORD: Have you ever visited with Jason Baldwin?

GRIFFIS: I dont know who he is.

FORD: You dont know who he is.

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: Okay. Have you ever visited with Damien Echols?

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: What is a lateral transfer?

GRIFFIS: Thats when, thats when you go from one place agency and work for another one.

FORD: Okay. And you went, in 1976, to, uh, L.A. for a lateral transfer?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay, and when did you go back?

GRIFFIS: I, I was there, uh, less than a moI was there two weeks.

FORD: So this, so this on the street inveseducation, in the coffee shops, meeting with these people, that was for two weeks, that you?

GRIFFIS: There, yes, but that, you know, its been all over the United States.

FORD: Okay. When you, you said that you were qualified as an expert in Atlanta, Georgia?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: What field were you qualified as an expert in?

GRIFFIS: Uh, occult activities.

FORD: Occult activities. And what court was that in?

GRIFFIS: Cobb County, uh, a st

FORD: A state court?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

FORD: Akron, Ohio, what field were you qualified as an expert in?

GRIFFIS: Occult.

FORD: And what kind of court was that?

GRIFFIS: Federal.

FORD: And in Michigan?

GRIFFIS: Uh, that was a state court, and it was in the occult.

FORD: Are these the only three times youve been recognized as an expert in the field of the occult?

THE COURT: In court? Is that what youre asking?

FORD: Yes, sir, in court.

GRIFFIS: In the, in the occult? Uh, yes.

FORD: Okay. Are you here today to give an opinion in the, in the occult?

GRIFFIS: Whatever the counselor, okay, yes.

FORD: Do you, do you, have you formed an opinion, now? Do you have an opinion at this point in time as to whether or not the homicides that were in this trial about are occult in nature?

GRIFFIS: I have, the counselor has not shown me all the information, so

FORD: So right now you havent formed an opinion because you havent even, you dont have an opinion right now.

GRIFFIS: I, not totally, no.

FORD: Okay, tell me, who have you talked to in this case? Who, where have you gained your information in this case?

GRIFFIS: Uh, from Det. Ridge.

FORD: From Ridge?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay.

GRIFFIS: Uh, the prosecutor

FORD: Which, which one?

GRIFFIS: The one, uh, Mr. Fogleman

FORD: Mr. Fogleman, all right. Who else?

GRIFFIS: And, uh, approximately, uh, a year ago I was called, uh, by a, uh, gentleman by the name of Jerry Driver, I believe.

FORD: Jerry Driver.

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: He called you about a year ago.

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

FORD: Okay. How many times did you talk to Jerry Driver?

GRIFFIS: Probably about five or six.

FORD: 5 or 6 times. And when was the last time you talked to him?

GRIFFIS: Shortly after this case took place.

FORD: Shortly after May of 93?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: So, you had already been contacted by Jerry Driver even before these homicides occurred.

GRIFFIS: Thats right.

FORD: Okay. So, was the last time you talked to Jerry Driver in the month of May? 1993?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: How many times have you spoken with Mr. Fogleman?

GRIFFIS: Probably ten, twelve.

FORD: 10 or 12 times. Have you ever told Mr. Fogleman that these homicides were the result of the actions of a non-traditional group that was either cause-oriented or belief-oriented?

GRIFFIS: I told him, uh, that there were some indicators, ah, present, and, ah, I did furnish them some questions.

FORD: Okay, but did you ever say, Yes, these homicides are occult-oriented.? Did you ever tell him that?

GRIFFIS: Not specifically.

FORD: Okay, when was the lwhen was the first time you talked with Mr. Fogleman?

GRIFFIS: I, uh, I thprobably about a month ago, I think.

FORD: Okay. So that ten to twelve conver--ten to twelve conversations have all been--

THE COURT: I think youve gone into cross-examination at this point rather than

FORD: Your Honor

THE COURT: rather than voir dire your witnesses, witness on his, uh, expertise in the field of the occult

FORD: Im trying to attain

THE COURT: Were gonna have to do everything yall are doing now over for the jury if I allow him to testify as an expert, so

FORD: Well, right now Im trying

THE COURT: I (unintelligible) your cross-examination is, is not appropriate. Your, your questions as to his competency, his expertise in the field, uh, anything along that line, uh, will be allowed.

FORD: Your Honor, until this witness forms an opinion based upon the courts order in limine, then we cant go forward, and he cant testify in open court on that opinion because of the order in limine, your Honor.

FOGLEMAN: I was going to the qualifications first. I hadnt gotten to the opinion part.

THE COURT: Thats all Im saying, gentlemen, if youve got any further questions going to his qualifications as an expert in the field, Im gonna allow them, but to cross-examine him, uh, at this point on whether he has an opinion or not, Im not gonna allow it.

FORD: Have you ever, have you ever been involved in a confirmed occult killing?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay, when was that?

GRIFFIS: Ive been involved in two of them.

FORD: Two of them?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir. One was in Rhode Island, one was in Michigan, and, uh, counselor, for me to, uh, Ill be very clear with you. I cant remember exactly when the dates were.

FORD: You dont, all right.

GRIFFIS: It would be within the last four years.

FORD: In the last four years, and of the entire time that youve been involved, those are the only two?

GRIFFIS: No, this would be the third one.

FORD: This would be the third confirmed occult killing?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: So, at this point, are you saying it is a, an occult killing?

GRIFFIS: I havent made my opinions yet, I

FORD: Oh, okay.

THE COURT: Ha--have you published in the area of, of occult activity other than your dissertation and your thesis?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir. Ive written four books used in, in, uh, by criminal justice and that, uh, uh, books that they use in their (unintelligible) work.

THE COURT: And apparently someones written a book, uh, that, uh, that questions your theories. Are you familiar with that book?

GRIFFIS: I havent read it. Uh, I know that Im in about 50 books, and out of the fifty, two of them dont like me.

THE COURT: If youre sufficiently known in that field as an expert to have people question your methods, techniques, and, and to write books about you?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir, Ive also been in two movies.

THE COURT: All right.

FORD: Have you, did you conduct any scientific tests in this case?

GRIFFIS: In which case?

FORD: In this one.

GRIFFIS: Oh, this case? No.

FORD: Have you conducconducted any interviews in this case?

THE COURT: Again, youre going to cross-examination.

FORD: Im going to qualifications, your Honor. This court is, this court has previously entered an order that a (sic) individual who held a degree of PhD could not render his opinion because there was an absence of any scientific tests, and Im asking

THE COURT: If youre talking about the (unintelligible) doctor, yeah, go ahead and ask him your question.

FORD: And Im asking this doctor, what scientific tests have you conducted in this case to form an opinion?

GRIFFIS: Scientific tests?

FORD: Mm-hmm!

GRIFFIS: None.

FORD: Can you, can you tell me in this Rhode Island case, who confirmed that it was a cult killing? Who made that determination that it was a confirmed occult killing?

GRIFFIS: I did, along with the officers involved, yes.

FORD: Who made the confirmation in Michigan?

GRIFFIS: The, uh, police agencies and it was based on the confession of the perpetrator.

FORD: Can you remember the names of either of the defendants in these two cases?

GRIFFIS: I can tell you the police, police officers I worked with, yes.

FORD: Okay, in Rhode Island.

GRIFFIS: Uh, Sgt. Ed Pierce.

FORD: Sgt. Ed Pierce. And do you know what town that was in?

GRIFFIS: Sure. Warwick, Rhode Island.

FORD: Warwick?

GRIFFIS: Warwick, yes.

FORD: Okay, and in Michigan?

GRIFFIS: Ah, it was just outside of the Flint area, and, uh, I, Ill be very honest, Id have to go back and look at my files. This I worked with the, uh, defthe defense counsel, and, on that case.

FORD: Thank you.

PRICE: I got a few more questions on credentials, Judge.

THE COURT: All right.

PRICE: Dr. Griffis, you had mentioned that you had published, uh, four books on the occult subjects. Was one of them The Four Faces of Satan?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay. And was one of them Runes, Glyphs, and Alphabets?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay. And was one of them The Investigation Manual for Non-Traditional Groups?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: And thats whats also incorporated in your dissertation? Or parts of it at least?

GRIFFIS: I think I took from the dissertation those facts and put it in there.

PRICE: And put it in the investigation manual. All right. And then what was the fourth publication?

GRIFFIS: A Primer For Law Enforcement on Non-Traditional Groups.

PRICE: Okay. Uh, nothing further at this time, your Honor.

FORD: One more question. What was, what was the name of the defendant or the case name in Atlanta, Georgia where you were qualified as an expert witness?

GRIFFIS: I, ah, can tell you it was Cobb County Sheriff Department, and this case, and I, I dont know.

FORD: You dont know?

GRIFFIS: No, no, I dont

FORD: And what year?

GRIFFIS: Id have to go back in my files, counselor, to be very honest with you to see what it was. I dont keep track of

FORD: What about Akron? Same answer for Akron, Ohio? Can you remember the name and when that was?

GRIFFIS: I said it (unintelligible) last week for attorney York, in, in, ah, Akron, Ohio.

FORD: What was, what was the case name?

GRIFFIS: Was a consortium of people vs. a school system up, up there. Which, they did not, it did not, all I did was look at some pictures and go through. I gave them some opinions and did some

FORD: Civil case?

GRIFFIS: Civil.

FORD: And Atlanta, Georgia, was it a civil or criminal case?

GRIFFIS: I think it was both.

FORD: Both.

GRIFFIS: Yeah, it was, it was kind of a, well, my aspect was in the civil side of it.

FORD: What about in Michigan?

GRIFFIS: That was a murder case.

FORD: You remember the name of that?

GRIFFIS: It didnt bring, Im sorry, I dont mean to have faded recollection, but I just dont remember it. I know the first kids name was Jeff and he was in Ionia prison.

FORD: Thank you.

THE COURT: Anything else? Are yall waiting on me?

PRICE: Judge, Id just like to make an argument at this point on behalf of my client, its our position that the, based on a mail-order PhD in which a, a person doesnt have to take classes, doesnt have to take any residence courses from a non-accredited school, does not qualify as an expert in Arkansas, and that we object to the Court qualifying Dr. Griffis as an expert.

THE COURT: Im not sure in Arkansas or in any other state that you have to have any kind of degree to be an expert in a particular field

PRICE: All right, thats true your Honor, but

THE COURT: To demonstrate knowledge, education, experience and training in the field, you could have a third-grade education if you have other education, experience and training that qualifies you as an expert, so Im not persuaded at all by your argument about a mail-order PhD. So is there anything else?

FORD: Your Honor, I think that hes failed to demonstrate the reputable training, education and experience that qualifies as expert.

THE COURT: I, I disagree. Im gonna allow him to testify in the area of occult. All right.

FORD: Assuming he has a

THE COURT: If he doesnt have an opinion, then it doesnt mean anything anyway.

FORD: Your Honor, you reckon we can go into that?

THE COURT: Yeah, but Id like a five minute recess just for us now. Im gonna tell the jury another 10 or 15 minutes. (laughter)

(COURTROOM NOISE, THEN TAPE STOPS AND RESTARTS DURING A CONVERSATION BETWEEN GRIFFIS AND BURNETT, FOGLEMAN, AND DAVIS)

GRIFFIS: horses ass, who was with the (Virginia State Authority?), and Ive lectured in his hometown area for the police agencies, regional police agencies there, and Ive also done work for the mental health hospital in his (catchman?) area.

BURNETT: What is itdoes he just not believe that?

GRIFFIS: Theres some, theres some, theres something they believe to (unintelligible) scientologist, okay, which I just dont, I dont want to put your ass on the firing line on that as well as mine, okay.

FOGLEMAN: I dont know what it is, he wants you to explain to the jury (unintelligible) anything about those degrees. Rather than have him do it, Im sure hes going to ask you. Im gonna go ahead and have him bring that (unintelligible)

GRIFFIS: I mean, on, to, for the jury. Sure, no problem, and the thing about that is, in 1976, they didnt have training in this area in any place. Hi. Dale Griffis.

DAVIS: Im Brent Davis, prosecutor.

GRIFFIS: Ah, now you know why I got out of the fuckin prosecutors office, ah(laughter), no

(TAPE CUTS OFF, CUTS BACK ON AGAIN)

BURNETT: All right, court will be in session. Let the record reflect that this is a continuation of the in camera hearing on occult activity, I guess thats what

FOGLEMAN: At my request, did you, uh, view the autopsy reports of the three victims, Michael Moore, Stevie Branch and Chris Byers in this case?

GRIFFIS: Yes I did.

FOGLEMAN: Did you also review the autopsy photo--some autopsy photographs that I sent to you?

GRIFFIS: Prior to that?

FOGLEMAN: No, after that.

GRIFFIS: Oh, yes.

FOGLEMAN: Did you also at my request review some crime scene photographs?

GRIFFIS: Yes, I did.

FOGLEMAN: Now, in addition to what you have reviewed, if you would assume that there was testimony that showed that, uh, blood was sucked from the penis of one of the victims, that this occurred on May the 5th of 1993, that there was a full moon, and that there was absence of evidence of blood at the scene, would you have an opinion as to whether or not there are, uh, (long pause) do you have an opinion as to whether or not there are, uh, occult overtones or evidence of occult involvement, uh, in these particular murders?

GRIFFIS: It would, uh, tell me to believe that it was some, uh, possibility of occultism being involved.

FOGLEMAN: All right. And what would that opinion be based on?

GRIFFIS: Well, the date being close to, ah, Beltane

FOGLEMAN: What is that?

GRIFFIS: a holiday, May 1st, also the day before that is Walpurgisnacht. Then you go into the fact that some, ah, groups, uh, occult/cult groups or, will use a full moon. Uh, in several occult books, they will talk about the life force of the blood, usually the younger the individual, the more pure it is, the more power or the force it has.

FOGLEMAN: Okay, was there anything about the manner in which, uh, the victims were tied?

GRIFFIS: I have observed over my tenure in a lot of, of death scenes, photos, these boys were placed in what I would refer to as a display mode. They were tied ankles to wrists, opening up the area.

FOGLEMAN: When you say display mode, what do you mean?

GRIFFIS: Well, they were tied ankles, opening up the genitalia, and there, this would be laying either face down or face up.

FOGLEMAN: Uh, was there anything about the type of injuries, uh, that would give an indication of an occult overtone to the murders?

GRIFFIS: In, um, in the cases where Ive worked where there (unintelligible) I observed photos of there, people are overkilled. In other words, the ritual is going on or the event is going on, the body is repeatedly killed.

FOGLEMAN: All right, and when you say overkill, what do you mean?

GRIFFIS: Well, where a person, ah, will receive a lethal blow or a lethal cut, this one will have many of them.

FOGLEMAN: Does the absence of blood, or evidence of blood at the scene have some significance in relation to your opinion?

GRIFFIS: A lot of times they will take blood and store it for other services and other use (long pause) as well as consume it.

FOGLEMAN: Consume it as in drink it?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

FOGLEMAN: Alright, and is that related

GRIFFIS: Or bathe in it.

FOGLEMAN: Okay, is that related to what you said before about the life force?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

FOGLEMAN: I dont have any further questions, if anyone else (unintelligible mumbling and pause). Your Honor, I did have, I missed something. What about the fact that, uh, on the picture of Chris Byers (unintelligible) the castration injury, that had some significance in this area?

GRIFFIS: I have seen photos and worked a case, knowledgeable about another case where this had been done also.

FOGLEMAN: And was that an occult related?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir, it was.

PRICE: Alright, Dr. Griffis, in the factors that you had testified to earlier, one of the factors you were asked if the date May the 5th meant something as far as, what, the satanic calendar, I think, something to that effect?

GRIFFIS: Ah, yes.

PRICE: Alright now, isnt it true that based on materials that you and others have published, almost any date has a significance?

GRIFFIS: No, not what I have published, sir.

PRICE: Alright, well, did you help publish, are you familiar with the satanic cult awareness materials that list you as an acknowledgement or credit, this one is actually presented by Gaylen Hurst and Robert L. Morris, but lists you as one of, as the first person listed for providing information documentation?

GRIFFIS: I like this, they took one of my drawings (laughs). Its one of the drawings out of my own work, which is copyrighted. Thank you. (laughter)

PRICE: Ill get you an address.

GRIFFIS: Yeah, thanks. (laughs) Uh, first of all, this is Larry Jones, not Larry Holmes, of Boise, Idaho. Sandy Galant-Daly, that is not her name anymore. Curt Jackson Ive talked to once, and these other two gentleuh, people from DIS, I have no idea who they are, and

PRICE: Let me, the one part I was

GRIFFIS: and this gentleman here, Gaylen Hurst, I did not give him permission to use my material.

PRICE: Okay, if I could borrow this just for a second.

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

PRICE: In here, there lists, there appears to be a calendar of certain dates. I dont know if this is something youre familiar with.

GRIFFIS: That is not my calendar.

PRICE: Okay, then you have a calendar?

GRIFFIS: Theres a calendar that I use. Its in the, its on the back which has 13 dates on it.

PRICE: All right, and the dates are, and I believe one of the dates that you were, made reference to was May the 1st?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

PRICE: All right. And, of course these murders took place either May the 5th or May the 6th, which would have been within

GRIFFIS: It is based, a lot of times what they will do is based on where that calendar will fall within a week they may do it on the weekend or if its close to a full moon theyll wait and do it then.

PRICE: All right, but any murder takes place on a particular day, right?

GRIFFIS: Yeah.

PRICE: All right, and so, and once theres a particular date, that date is either close to, or far away, or exactly on a particular date on, on a calendar, for example, that you may have, correct?

GRIFFIS: I told you, counselor, I only have 13 days that I

PRICE: You have 13 days.

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: And May the 1st is one of your days?

GRIFFIS: Yes sir. And the day before that is Walpurgisnacht.

PRICE: Okay, Walpurs

GRIFFIS: Walpurgisnacht.

PRICE: Walpurgisnacht, and thatd be

THE COURT: Spell that.

GRIFFIS: W-A-L-P-E-R-N-A-U-C-H-T (note by SallyI looked online for Walpernaucht, Walpersnaught and Walpersnacht, which is how I thought it was spelled, to get a correct spelling, and Walpurgisnacht was what showed up with online. Griffiss spelling is transcribed exactly as he spelled it in court and is wrong despite his expertise in occult/cult topics.)

PRICE: And that would be April 30th?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

PRICE: All right. But as far as looking at your evidence in this particular case, youre not stating that the murders were committed on May 5th because of these particular dates, are you?

GRIFFIS: No, just that they were close to it, yes, sir.

PRICE: Close to a particular date. All right. And you indicated that some groups use a moon, well, based on nature, there are some days that theres moon, full moons, quarter moons, half moons, no moon.

GRIFFIS: Usually full moon.

PRICE: Usually full moon?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

PRICE: All right, and what, youre saying that some groups commit murders on full moons?

GRIFFIS: Hold services on full moons

PRICE: All right, are you saying that this murder was held at a occult service? In your opinion?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: So youre saying that the murders that took place on May the 5th

GRIFFIS: were committed during the act or they were working on

(Audio ends and picks up a few seconds later)

PRICE: is committing a sexual murder on young children that may have nothing to do with an occult killing. Correct?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: And the fact that, I mean, do, do some occult killings occur with older victims?

GRIFFIS: (long pause) I have had people discuss that with me

PRICE: And, who are the people?

GRIFFIS: Clients. But I have never come up with anybody.

PRICE: Alright, and you also testified that the manner in which the victims were tied, like you used the term display mode, that that indicated that it could be an occult killing. Is it also true that the manner in which the victims were tied could be a basis for a sex crime that has absolutely nothing to do with an occult crime?

GRIFFIS: Ive never seen it done that way, sir.

PRICE: Youve never seen it done that way?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

PRICE: Okay, and how many of these, how many sex crimes have you investigated, in which you say youve never seen the victims tied in that manner?

GRIFFIS: (Long pause) Aboutttwo.

PRICE: Two. Okay.

FOGLEMAN: Now was that sex crimes in which the victims were tied this way or sex crimes hes investigated? I didnt catch that.

PRICE: (unintelligible)

GRIFFIS: How many sex crimes have I investigated?

FOGLEMAN: I wasnt sure which, I thought that was what the question was and I wasnt

PRICE: Uh, yeah, let me back up. First of all how many sex crimes have you investigated?

GRIFFIS: I have no idea. Ive been a police officer for 26 years, and uh, in this consulting for eight and I would have no idea.

PRICE: Okay, and

GRIFFIS: But a lot of them.

PRICE: And now, when you said that there were two, there are two sex crimes in which the victims

GRIFFIS: were tied

PRICE: --were tied

GRIFFIS: But they were not tied in the manner for which, like this.

PRICE: But

GRIFFIS: That was your question.

PRICE: All right, yes sir.

GRIFFIS: Okay.

PRICE: As a follow-up, where is it, what research do you have that, that the manner in which these victims were tied means it was an occult crime?

FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, he didnt say that. He said based on all of those factors, thats (unintelligible)

PRICE: All right, but Im asking this particular factor

THE COURT: I, I think your questions need to be directed toward the opinion that hes given. Now, were gonna have to go back through all this cross-examination

PRICE: Thats correct, your Honor.

THE COURT: with the jury again

PRICE: Im well aware of that. Thats why Im doing it now.

THE COURT: All right.

PRICE: Because if the court rules that hes not entitled to make an opinion based on some of these factors, that he wont be testifying in front of the jury, so Im entitled to ask him the questions.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead.

PRICE: All right, but what, you said its a factor the manner in which the victims were tied, where does this, wheres the research on this?

GRIFFIS: Well, you would, you would look in such books as Ceremonial Magic by Crowley, and, uh, then from working, uh, in, with that and looking at the way the people were displayed, ah, you know, there, to me, appeared to be no other reason for that type of position.

PRICE: What, did it appear to you that one reason that the victims may have been tied this way was to float on (under?) the water so they could drown?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

PRICE: No. Okay did it appear to you that they could be tied this way for a, to commit some kind of sexual act thats not related to the occult?

GRIFFIS: (long pause) Did it, notno.

PRICE: Okay, and is it your testimony that you have seen other cases in which victims were tied in this manner and it was an occult crime?

GRIFFIS: I didntI didnt say

PRICE: All right, so, all right then, let me ask you, have you seen any cases in which victims were tied in this manner, which turned out to be an occult crime?

GRIFFIS: No.

PRICE: All right, you also mentioned that the type of injuries was another factor in which you considered, to this to be a, have occult overtones. Now is this, is this based on the injuries to one of the victims, the left side of the face?

GRIFFIS: No.

PRICE: Okay, is, is there any significance, and if injuries to the left side of the face as opposed to the right side of the face?

GRIFFIS: The people who practice occultism, they will use a mid-line theory, drawing straight down through the body, uh, the right hand side, uh, is usually related to those things which is synonymous with Christianity, and the left hand path is that which is, uh, practitioners of the satanic occult systems.

PRICE: All right now, is it also true, if a, if a perpetrator is gonna cut a victim in the face, theres two ways to do it, the left side or the right side, correct?

GRIFFIS: Correct.

PRICE: And, then theres, would you say that theres a 50/50 chance that if they cut them on the left side that its occult related or if they cut them on the right side, its not occult related?

GRIFFIS: No.

PRICE: Okay, um, you mentioned that people who practice the occult have this belief. Can you name me one case that youve investigated in which, a, a, it turned out to be occult killing in which the injuries occurred to the left side of the face as opposed to the right side of the face?

GRIFFIS: (long pause) No.

PRICE: Alright, in addition, you testified that overkill, um, the repeated injuries was another factor in which to consider if it was an occult related killing. Is it also true that in a non-occult related killing, there can be overkill?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: All right, can you name a case that youve investigated which turned out to be a satanic killing in which the victims were overkilled?

GRIFFIS: The one in, the one in Rhode Island would be

PRICE: Just a moment, this, this is Rhode Island

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Now youve had a chance to think, what was the date on that?

GRIFFIS: I dont know it then, I dont remember it now.

PRICE: I notice on your resume you did not list any of the cases that youve testified in on your resume, is that correct?

GRIFFIS: I just

PRICE: Is that correct?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay, then it was a Rhode Island case, you dont remember the date, and this was a, this was a murder case?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay, and do you recall who the defense lawyer was?

GRIFFIS: No, I didnt, I didnt testify in that case.

PRICE: All right, you did not testify. Did you, did you do some consulting?

GRIFFIS: With the police.

PRICE: With the police. All right. All right, besides the, the one Rhode Island case, and this, I believe you testified earlier that you couldnt remember the name of this one

GRIFFIS: And the one in Michigan.

PRICE: And the one in Michigan, all right, the one in Michigan, was this also an overkill?

GRIFFIS: They chopped her up.

PRICE: Chopped her up. Okay, you said they. Who is it, who is the they in that case?

GRIFFIS: It was, uh, a young male and his wife.

PRICE: Okay, and what, what, um, belief system did, did they have in the Michigan case?

GRIFFIS: In both Rhode Island and Michigan, the person was killed inside the pentagram, and, uh, during that, during the time, they were carrying out some kind of ritual.

PRICE: All right, and was there an actual pentagram kind of drawn out at the crime scene?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: In both the Rhode Island case

GRIFFIS: Well, the one crime, the one Michigan case, it was from talking with the, the defendant, it had been there but the police didnt catch it. The one in, the one in Rhode Island, it was still on the ground.

PRICE: All right, now have you had a chance to look at the crime scene photographs in this particular case?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: All right, and would you agree with me that theres no evidence based on the crime scene photographs of a pentagram ever being present at the crime scene?

GRIFFIS: I, I did not see one.

PRICE: Okay, and is there any other evidence of a pentagram at our, at the crime scene in this particular case?

GRIFFIS: Not that Im aware of.

PRICE: Okay. All right, in addition you had testified that torture was another factor to consider in basing your opinion, uh, is it also true that you can have torture and it doesnt necessarily have to be a occult related crime?

GRIFFIS: True.

PRICE: True. All right, the issue, or the factor of absence of blood, its, its your belief or your testimony that absence of blood at a crime scene is another factor to consider in whether or not its a cult related killing?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: All right, now, uh, is also, could the absence of blood be explained by the, uh, victims being killed someplace else and just being brought to the, the location and, and dumped there?

GRIFFIS: Yeah.

PRICE: Okay.

GRIFFIS: Sure.

PRICE: And you mentioned that it, that, that sometimes, in fact you said the word they, they take blood and store it and consume blood?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay, is there any evidence in this case of anyone consuming any blood?

FOGLEMAN: That was part of the hypothetical.

PRICE: Okay, there was one, theres been some testimony that one defendant, um, sucked a penis of blood. All right, now, would the, based on that hypothetical, would the one person sucking a penis, sucking blood out, and two other persons having multiple injuries, if bloum, yeah, which is caused by the stabbings and additional blood, did, did the sucking of blood out of one persons penis would not get rid of all the other blood at the crime scene, correct?

GRIFFIS: No.

PRICE: Okay, and do you have any evidence of any, in this particular case, of any, anybody storing any blood?

GRIFFIS: Thats not been brought to my attention.

PRICE: Okay. All right, is the placement of the bodies in water a factor in deciding whether or not this is a satanic killing?

GRIFFIS: It would, not in itself, but would lend a more, more credence in total.

PRICE: All right, is it also possible that the bodies were placed in water in order to drown the victims?

GRIFFIS: Could be.

PRICE: Okay, and Im sure youve read in the autopsies what two of the three victims were drowned.

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: And is it also possible to place the bodies in water so that it would be harder for um, um, anybody to find the bodies until later on?

GRIFFIS: Yeah, I dont know how deep the water was.

PRICE: Is the factor that the victims were the age of 8, is, is that a factor that you considered in making your opinion?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: Okay, does that, obviously, presuppose that the defendants knew the ages of the victims?

GRIFFIS: Am I assuming that they knew that

PRICE: Yes.

GRIFFIS: Ah, that was not discussed with Mr. Fogleman.

PRICE: Okay, now is 8 a factor because that is a witches number? Whats the significance of 8?

GRIFFIS: Okay, in Crowleys, in Crowleys work, he discusses that, uh, sex before 8 or you lose the magical power.

PRICE: Sex before 8, or lose magical power. Okay, so that if the victims were all 8 years old, then that wouldnt be sex before 8, correct?

GRIFFIS: I said s8? Im sorry. Notnine. Eight or before.

PRICE: Eight or before. Excuse me. Now, but is there a particular cult that, um, supports that viewpoint? You said in Crowleys work.

GRIFFIS: Occult group? Yes.

PRICE: And what occult group is that?

GRIFFIS: He has done a lot of writing which is synonymous with a group called OTO, or Ordo Temporus Originus. (Note by Sally: When I tried to find how to spell this online, I found that this group is called Ordo Templi Orientis)

PRICE: And what does that group, uh, live or practice or whatever?

GRIFFIS: All over the world.

PRICE: All over the world. Okay. So thats the basis of the, are you basing 8 because theres a, (unintelligible) being a witches number?

GRIFFIS: Part, you know, I, I, counselor, I dont go from zero to 10 in one bound. I try and put it all together.

PRICE: All right, but I guess what Im confused about is some of the factors that youve talked about, it appears that youve taken them from certain philosophies of Wiccan religion and other parts are satanic.

GRIFFIS: What are you talking about with Wicca?

PRICE: Okay, are you considering Wicca as any factor in this murder?

GRIFFIS: No.

PRICE: Youre not?

GRIFFIS: No.

THE COURT: Whats the difference in an occult and what I call a cult? I dont know the difference. What is the difference? Is there?

GRIFFIS: Yes, there are, sir. Uh (strange noise) get it so she cant

THE COURT: You talk to her and Ill listen.

GRIFFIS: Okay, thank you. Uh, a occult group is a group thats involved in some sort of esoteric science, uh, and theyve been around prior to Christianity. A cult group usually is a group that I deal with, ones who are breaking a law, are those who follow a particular belief style under a charismatic leader, and, uh, in and among their belief style (not sure he said style) they do break the law. A cult may have various types of belief systems.

THE COURT: Okay. Does the number 3, three victims, have any significance?

GRIFFIS: One of the most powerful numbers in, uh, in the practice of satanic belief is 666, and some believe the beast wrote a 6 as 3. Ive seen it in some of the writings.

PRICE: Okay, as a follow up to that question, is the number 3, the fact that there were three victims in this case, is that a factor that you considered in making your (unintelligible)?

GRIFFIS: Its a minute part.

PRICE: Minute part.

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

PRICE: Okay, would you agree also that the number 3 is significant in Christianity, for example, and other religions?

GRIFFIS: I cant make that statement.

PRICE: Okay, are you familiar with the Christianity beliefs in the trinity, the three in one?

GRIFFIS: Oh, yes.

PRICE: So theres nothing that says that 3 is related to occult as opposed to mainstream religion. Um, in reaching your opinion, what was the empirical data that you used to make that determination?

GRIFFIS: Dates.

PRICE: The dates of the murders?

GRIFFIS: The dates of the murders.

PRICE: Okay.

GRIFFIS: Uh, location.

PRICE: Okay, and explain if you can explain, sir.

GRIFFIS: Well, its my understanding it was a rather private, uh, area, uh, a lot of trees around it added to secrecy. Uh, its my work in the past, uh, Ive done a lot, these people who do this kind of activity dont do it at the corner walk and wait, they do it where theyre off to theirself.

PRICE: All right.

GRIFFIS: The fact that the, amount of injuries, the overkill. I gave credence to the way, uh, the bodies were, uh, tied.

PRICE: But

GRIFFIS: The occultists that I have talked to in the past will hold services near water so that they can wash with.

PRICE: Okay, and who are those occultists that you have talked to in the past that hold services by the water?

GRIFFIS: Ah, counselor, Ive been talking to these people since 1967. To sit down and specifically say dates, names and places, I couldnt tell you.

PRICE: All right, how bout just one, please? Can you name just one?

GRIFFIS: Lady Samantha. No, excuse me. Lady Feather.

PRICE: Lady Feather?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

PRICE: All right. And what murder did she commit?

GRIFFIS: She did not commit a murder.

PRICE: Okay, is there anyone who youve talked to thats a member of any of these occults that have committed murders?

GRIFFIS: Whats this, sir?

PRICE: Is there anybody that you have talked to thats committed a murder by a body of water?

GRIFFIS: No, they did it close to, not a body of water, but to a water source.

PRICE: One moment, your Honor. All right doctor, you testified eara few minutes ago about an occult murder that occurred near a body of water. Where was this?

GRIFFIS: I didnt say near a body of water. I said where water

PRICE: Water source?

GRIFFIS: --water source was present.

PRICE: Okay. First of all, what was the water source?

GRIFFIS: Uh, a, uh, well. Hand pump.

PRICE: All right, and where did this murder take place?

GRIFFIS: That was the one in Michigan.

PRICE: The Michigan one. All right. Itll be just a moment, your Honor. All right, no other questions at this time, your Honor.

FORD: Mr. Griffis, Wicca is not a factor? Thats what youre saying?

GRIFFIS: I stated that what I, that, yes.

FORD: That Wicca is not a factor. Now, you read the autopsy reports. Is that correct?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay, what in the autopsy reports make you, what in the autopsy reports indicates occult killing?

GRIFFIS: You mean from the medical examiners standpoint?

FORD: Yes. You read them, you reviewed them, you said you relied on them in forming your opinion. What about those reports are indicative of an occult killing?

GRIFFIS: Overkill.

FORD: Overkill. Which child was overkilled?

GRIFFIS: Uh, the, one you--, a couple, one youth was, ah, castrated and in and around his pubic area, uh, there were, uh, several puncture type wounds.

FORD: So thats what the overkill is?

GRIFFIS: Thats part of it. I didnt get finished, counselor.

FORD: Okay, go ahead then. Please, finish.

GRIFFIS: Ah, and then there was, ah, ah, the injuries to the face, where his face was, uh, mutilcut several times. The other, another youth, uh, was, uh, cut, uh, on top head with some type of sharp object, and he had, uh, several wounds on his body, uh, which, uh, in talking with the, uh, medical examiner, uh, were, uh more than one was death, uh, a death blow. And the, uh, third, uh, child, uh, did not seem to have that much, you know, less damaged.

FORD: Are you telling us that part of your opinion is based upon one child having both been castrated and cut severely in the face?

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: Is that one child?

GRIFFIS: No, I said the second child also had several wounds to him.

FORD: What about the autopso the autopsy photographs and the autopsy reports, the reason that theyre important to you is because they have evidence of overkill?

GRIFFIS: Yes, sir.

FORD: Okay. Do you know how many, youre not a medical doctor, are you?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

FORD: You didnt get one of those degrees.

GRIFFIS: No.

FORD: Okay. Um, did, do you know how many blows Chris Byers received that were mortal blows?

GRIFFIS: In talking to the doctor, medical examiner, I believe there were five or more.

FORD: So Chris Byers received five--

GRIFFIS: No, this is, this is the boy that had the, uh, uh, his face cut. Is that correct?

FORD: The boy who, do you know which one is which?

GRIFFIS: No

FOGLEMAN: They werent mentioned by name, your Honor.

FORD: Well, Im askin him. Thats important, I think, what his, what the bashow deep is his knowledge if he knows which victim had which injuries. I think thats could be considered in the weight to be given to his opinion.

THE COURT: (Unintelligible) jury

FORD: Well, I understand that, but

THE COURT: The jury, yes.

FORD: How many, do you know how many mortal blows

THE COURT: If he doesnt know the names of the victims, describe them in some way so you can ask him what he reviewed.

FORD: All right.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

FORD: How many, do you know how many mortal blows Chris Byers received?

GRIFFIS: Is this the one that was castrated?

FORD: Thats the one that was castrated. How many mortal blows or wounds did he receive?

GRIFFIS: I believe there were five.

FORD: Five. Okay, and thats based on what the medical examiner told you?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Thats not based on your knowledge. Okay. How many mortal blows did Stevie Branch receive?

GRIFFIS: Is this the one that was hit on the top of the head?

FORD: I think they were all hit on top of the head.

GRIFFIS: No, one was had severe trauma to the head with what appeared to be an ax or with a very sharp (unintelligible).

FORD: With an ax, okay. Do you know how many, that child, how many more blows did he receive?

GRIFFIS: I believe there were four.

FORD: Four. And the other, Michael Moore, how many mortal blows did he receive?

GRIFFIS: There were only two.

FORD: Only two. Okay, now

GRIFFIS: Now wait, when you say blows, there was one that was, the one boy that was castrated had a considerable amount of, uh, blows if youre wishing to call them blows.

FORD: But thats not overkill, is it? Its not overkill unless it were to kill him again and again and again. Is that right? Is that what you mean by overkill? That you cut his head off or cut his heart out. That would be overkill or is overkill just hittin em a number of times?

GRIFFIS: Multiple injuries. Also the fact that the one boy had, uh, so many wounds I couldnt count on him in and around the pelvic area.

FORD: Okay, what about the crime scene photos was important to you?

GRIFFIS: The, the original ones was the way they were, uh, tied.

FORD: Okay. Anything else about the crime scene photos that are important to you in reaching your opinion?

GRIFFIS: Water was present.

FORD: Water, method of tying

GRIFFIS: And it, yes, and they also showed, uh, if I remember correctly, one of them was a kind of an overhead and showed that the area was secluded.

FORD: Secluded. Okay. (Indicating things on a pictureaudio becomes more muffled) Mr. Griffis, that the testimony has been that this is an interstate highway, I-40 and I-55. This is a truck wash. This is a truck stop, a second truck stop, residential neighborhood.

GRIFFIS: Yes?

FORD: The testimony is that its in this section right here? Thats secluded?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Youre saying these woods, that you could throw a stone from there to a home, is secluded?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay. (Audio goes back to normal) All right, so the crime scene photo shows water, method of tying, and secluded.

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay. Now, when I talked to you earlier this morning, you indicated that you hadnt formed an opinion. Isnt that what you told me?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: Okay. Do you have an opinion now? That this was an occult killing, is that your opinion now?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: And it wasnt that, that was not your opinion when you got here this morning at 9:30. Correct?

GRIFFIS: Youve brought, youve given me more evidence than I had before.

FORD: Okay. What have you learned today that tipped the scales, that made it a n--made it go from I dont know to I do know? What did you learn today?

GRIFFIS: Uh, refreshed on the time, you know, on the, uh, date.

FORD: So you learned, so today you learned

GRIFFIS: I mean, no, I said I was refreshed with the date, and, uh, I went over, uh, I had not seen that picture that you had just showed there.

FORD: So that, that photograph right there helps you reach your opinion, right?

GRIFFIS: Aids, yes.

FORD: Okay, and, and you had not seen that photograph before?

GRIFFIS: No, sir, I had not.

FORD: So the fact that that photograph shows how secluded it was, that, that helps?

GRIFFIS: Helped, helped me.

THE COURT: Had you been given the hypotheticals that Mr. Fogleman gave just a moment ago prior to today?

GRIFFIS: Uh, part of them, yes, sir.

THE COURT: Not all of them?

GRIFFIS: No, sir.

THE COURT: All right.

FORD: What was added in to Mr. Fogleman, go on, what else have you learned today that makes the, tips the scales?

GRIFFIS: Id, Id have

FORD: What new evidence have you obtained?

GRIFFIS: Id have to go back, counselor, and, uh

FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I cant even answer that, I dont remember

WADLEY: Hes not asking you, Mr. Fogleman, hes asking--your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay, just, just a minute. All right.

FORD: What else have you learned besides refresh your memory on the date? Does that mean you forgot the date?

GRIFFIS: No, I just

FORD: Or the date wasnt that important the first time you heard it?

GRIFFIS: No, it was just, I, putting the area, the date, and, uh, did I have an opinion, ah, I had talked, uh, with, uh, Mr. Fogleuh, I should say I talked with Mr. Fogleman last evening, uh

FORD: I understand that but you told me just an hour or so ago you didnt have an opinion, and now you do, and I wanna know what you learned that made you form your opinion besides remembering the date and seeing that photograph. What else did you learn to make you form this opinion?

GRIFFIS: I had an opinion before I came here, but I didnt, I dont know how you asked the question, if I misled you Im sorry.

FORD: Okay, youre telling me, I, did I, I asked you did you have an opinion as to whether this was an occult killing. You said, No. Did you say that--

THE COURT: He said I havent expressed my opinion yet, I think

GRIFFIS: I think thats what I said.

FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, actually the question I asked related to occult overtones to the killings, not whether or not it was an occult killing. I believe this is the first time that hes been asked whether or not it was, it was his opinion that this was an occult killing.

WADLEY: Judge, Id like to go back and replay what (unintelligible) was said.

THE COURT: Go ahead and ask him.

FORD: Did you have an opinion that this was an occult killing when you got here this morning?

GRIFFIS: Yes.

FORD: And when I asked you that earlier, you told me no, didnt you?

GRIFFIS: I was not, I didnt mean to mislead you.

FORD: But you did, didnt you?

GRIFFIS: No, I dont think the question was asked that way.

FORD: In other words, I confused you with my question.

GRIFFIS: I thought I was answering it correctly.

FORD: Well go back over lunch and find the, where it is in the record where you got confused. Um, those the only two new things that happened today thatwhen did you form this opinion? That this was an occult killing. When?

GRIFFIS: I had, uh, indicatwed gone over the indicators of what Id observed last evening, solidified what Id thought. Yes, sir.

FORD: Last night was when you formed the opinion?

GRIFFIS: Thats when I made it totally solidified. Yes.

FORD: All right. What did you learn last night that solidified it?

GRIFFIS: Some of the, uh, drawings, writings, some of the pictures.

FORD: What drawings? What writings? What pictures?

GRIFFIS: There was a presenpicture presented to me last evening of an individual, uh, that was a head of a satanic goat, Mendes.

FORD: Okay.

GRIFFIS: Ah

PRICE: Your Honor, at this time Id like to object. If the juvenile department of Crittenden County has got anything from my client when he was with the juvenile authorities, if thats confidential, and if that material has been turned over to the prosecuting attorneys office, which has been turned on over to Dr. Griffis, we object to that. My clients entitled to confidentiality. Any confidentiality of the juvenile department has been breached, and we object to that being used as a basis for this doctors opinion.