Comments

Aaargh! As if recent BBC TV News bulletins were not bad enough leading up to the release of AR5. I had detected a pattern there with the GWPF right in the frame and this latest nonsense confirms it.

Peter Lilley I marked the cards of in my #44 on this page above. Lilley is a disgrace and so is Patterson, Osborne and Cameron with their head in the sand (or full of sand) promotion of fracking.

On the Monday Evening 6 o’clock News (18:00 BST) we were treated to a load of propaganda BS from a British gas field worker in the US explaining how fracked gas was going to be a GHG effect beater. I had to put down my tea and grit my teeth. My wife gets uppity when I start shouting at the box. I could not find that particular segment, indeed the BBC were rather coy about access to that whole report.

Trouble is, as recognised, the BBC have been cowed into submission to government whims by various exposures of wrong doing (scandals in the idiom). I have a feeling that there were some sitting on these to roll out when best used.

The indecent haste, and sneaky introduction just before the Summer Recess, of ‘The Transparency of Lobbying, non-Party Campaigning, and Trade Union Administration Bill is but one more element for an administration that has moved from Conservative to Regressive and now threatens to become The Repressive party.

There are more ways of judging temperature of the oceans than measuring with thermometers. Sea level is one indicator. Ecological developments are another and you may want to check out SOFAR.

Whatever, it is know that the oceans must be warming because, cryosphere changes aside, there is a huge missing heat addition component from Earth’s budget. Ocean heat is the recognised major term in total heat build up of the Earth.

The trouble is that you don’t understand the methodologies employed by scientists so you dismiss out of hand. It isn’t simple sums.

“Deniers simply dominate because they are closer to the truth than alarmists. That’s logical”

You forgot to say “That’s logical in an insane asylum”.

And perchance, where exactly do ‘deniers dominate’? Aside from in your fantasies that is? Certainly not in academia, where they are few and far between. And certainly not in terms of scientific pedigree, since most of them have lousy publication and citation records. So where exactly?

Joe’s heading for the penalty box soon for a game misconduct, that is clear.

Note how Rednose, Mack (Karen’s moved on to another old ‘handle’ since apparently being moderated out as well) and Joe try feebly to legitimize Stevenson, in Joe’s case by pasting up a summary of his career.

That doesn’t mean diddly squat when Stevenson decides – or more likely is forced – to publish his garbage in a source as utterly appalling as 21st C S & T. That it ended up there says everything about its credibility (meaning it has NONE). Why didn’t he target a scientific audience by submitting it to any number of excellent journals in the field? But of course, it would have gone through an exhaustive peer-review process and been bounced. So Stevenson ends up getting it published in the scientific equivalent of Mad Magazine.

All that’s left is for deniers like KarenMackSunspotand and Joe to suggest that Stevenson’s arguments are valid wherever they are published. And for Rednose to link the article. It is not worth debating the contents of an article published in a venue that is so utterly wretched.

Really guys, you are so easy to debunk. Is this the limit of your debating skills? I’d find more of a challenge in a first grade elementary school class.

I think that Joe is another Spotty sock. He doesn’t have much to say unless it’s copy-paste, and it’s rather coincidental that Mack suddenly reappears to support him just when the ‘karen’ sock has been put into the hamper.

Props to the thousands of people who have donated over $960,000 in the space of a couple of days to support the reconstituted Australian Climate Council following its scrapping by the criminally short-sighted new Federal Government (talk about regulatory capture).

For those interested in an accessible (read layperson-friendly) summary of the IPCC’s 5th Assessment Report, the Climate Council’s report can be found here.

As the Coalition voters will discover when the Abbott government starts to hand over tax-payer dollars to Big Industry for carbon reduction ‘actions’ that will do less than nothing to reduce carbon emissions, rather than letting proven market mechanisms put the impost direcltly onto the polluters.

If a small business proprietor pulled this type of swiftie they’d do jail time.

Rednonsense, You also posted an article up here from 21 C Sci and Tech. That disqualifies you.

Furthermore, I’d like to know how an utter layman like you can interpret conclusions of the IPCC documents better than the scientists who wrote them. Sounds like a bad case of Dunning-Kruger to me. But, then again, you aren’t the only scientific illiterate who does it. The other deniers I have encountered on Deltoid do it all the time. And not one of them has any formal training in climate science or any related field.

I wrote my first paper on the ocean’s influence on climate in 1958. The next year I was in England, working for the Navy to learn whether or not “micro- climates,” as we called them, along shores of the North Sea were determined by the adjacent coastal ocean. During the year, I visited all of the marine laboratories and research centers in western Europe.

It was in Germany, at the Seewetteramt (Marine Branch of the German Meteorological Office), where I met and began to work with two outstanding marine climatologists, Martin Rodewald, and Hans Markgraf, and the director, Dr. Hans U. Roll, the premier marine meteorologist of the time. They were looking at much larger areas than I—namely, the North Atlantic and the polar seas—and how they influenced the climate and weather over northwest Europe. It was a great education for me. I learned the processes by which the ocean and atmosphere work together.

The basics of these interactions start where oceans and atmosphere meet. More than 70 percent of the Earth’s surface is covered by oceans, seas, and lakes, and another 5 percent is covered by glaciers and ice caps. Just more than two thirds of this water area is in the Southern Hemisphere, and the oceans are 4 to 5 kilometers deep.

The atmosphere cannot warm until the underlying surface warms first. The lower atmosphere is transparent to direct solar radiation, preventing it from being significantly warmed by sunlight alone. The surface atmosphere thus gets its warmth in three ways: from direct contact with the oceans; from infrared radiation off the ocean surface; and, from the removal of latent heat from the ocean by evaporation. Consequently, the temperature of the lower atmosphere is largely determined by the temperature of the ocean.
Inland locations are less restrained by the oceans, so the surface air experiences a wider temperature range than it does over the oceans. Land cannot store heat for long, which is why hot days are quickly followed by cold nights in desert regions. For most of the Earth, however, the more dominant ocean temperatures fix the air temperature.

This happens through several means:

(1) The oceans transport heat around the globe via massive currents which sweep grandly through the various ocean basins. As a result, the tropics are cooler than they would be otherwise, and the lands of the high latitudes are warmer. The global circulation of heat in the oceans moderates the air temperatures around the whole world.

(2) Because of the high density/specific heat of sea water, the entire heat in the overlying atmosphere can be contained in the top two meters of the oceans. This enormous storage capacity enables the oceans to “buffer” any major deviations in temperature, moderating both heat and cold waves alike.

(3) Evaporation is constantly taking place at the surface of the seas. It is greatest in the tropics and weakest near the polar regions. The effect of evaporation is to cool the oceans and, thereby, the surface atmosphere.

How the Oceans Get Warm

Warming the ocean is not a simple matter, not like heating a small glass of water. The first thing to remember is that the ocean is not warmed by the overlying air.

Let’s begin with radiant energy from two sources: sunlight, and infrared radiation, the latter emitted from the “greenhouse” gases (water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and various others) in the lower atmosphere. Sunlight penetrates the water surface readily, and directly heats the ocean up to a certain depth. Around 3 percent of the radiation from the Sun reaches a depth of about 100 meters.

The top layer of the ocean to that depth warms up easily under sunlight. Below 100 meters, however, little radiant energy remains. The ocean becomes progressively darker and colder as the depth increases. (It is typical for the ocean temperature in Hawaii to be 26°C (78°F) at the surface, and 15°C (59°F) at a depth of 150 meters.

The infrared radiation penetrates but a few millimeters into the ocean. This means that the greenhouse radiation from the atmosphere affects only the top
few millimeters of the ocean. Water just a few centimeters deep receives none of the direct effect of the infrared thermal energy from the atmosphere! Further, it is in those top few millimeters in which evaporation takes places. So whatever infrared energy may reach the ocean as a result of the greenhouse effect is soon dissipated.

The concept proposed in some predictive models is that any anomalous heat in the mixed layer of the ocean (the upper 100 meters) might be lost to the deep ocean. There have been a number of studies in which this process has been addressed (Nakamura 1997; Tanimoto 1993; Trenberth 1994; Watanabi 1994; and White 1998). It is clear that solar-related variations in mixed-layer temperatures penetrate to between 80 to 160 meters, the average depth of the main pycnocline (density discontinuity) in the global ocean. Below these depths, temperature fluctuations become uncorrelated with solar signals, deeper penetration being restrained by the stratified barrier of the pycnocline.
Consequently, anomalous heat associated with changing solar irradiance is stored in the upper 100 meters. The heat balance is maintained by heat loss to the atmosphere, not to the deep ocean.

What about Thermohaline Circulation?

The fact that the surface ocean can become denser than the underlying waters, thereby sinking to depths of “density equilibrium,” has been discussed since surveys of the physical ocean began in the second half of the 19th century. Certainly the concept was known before HMS Challenger sailed, in 1873, on its famous expedition. One of the multitude of suggestions made by members of the Royal Society at that time was to investigate the “over-turning of surface waters caused by density differences.”

Thermohaline circulation is responsible for the formation of the bottom-water masses in the world’s oceans: the North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) originates basically in the region of the Labrador Sea; the Weddell Sea is the source of the deep-water in the circumpolar Southern Ocean; and the Pacific Deep Water originates in the Ross Sea. In many other places in the oceans, and seas, as well, surface waters are carried into the depths by thermohaline circulation.

So, it is not surprising that those modellers who “need” to get warm surface waters to move into the depths of the oceans, and remain sequestered there for long periods of time, would turn to the physical mechanism of this vertical circulation system. Their hope (claim) is that there can be occasions when salinity, rather than temperature, is the prime determining factor in the density of the surface waters. Then, warm water, made dense by an increase in the sea’s salt content, would sink.

But we already knew that this government were backing away from carbon targets by whipping up a storm of media frenzy about running out of Gas in 2015 so that Cameron comes over as entirely reasonable with his fracking push.

Can’t you read? I dealt with Stevenson’s being out of touch with developments in his field yesterday. He doesn’t present the full picture. He doesn’t *know* it. Or rather he didn’t some time last century, when this was written and just before he died, aged 80.

Cutting and pasting vast screeds that you obviously have not understood is just tedious. Go back and read the thread again. You will see the final paragraph of your redundant mega-quote has been quoted already – by me. Read the words.

2) Because of the high density/specific heat of sea water, the entire heat in the overlying atmosphere can be contained in the top two meters of the oceans. This enormous storage capacity enables the oceans to “buffer” any major deviations in temperature, moderating both heat and cold waves alike

.

In that whole copy and paste have you actually read and taken on board what it all means? It isn’t as if we don’t know this stuff about ocean currents, after all some of us have studied oceanography and read Wally Broecker et. al.

And the Challenger voyage I am familiar with, not least by reading, listening to and chatting with Dr. Richard Corfield.

Now perhaps you can answer the questions I posed above at Page 25 #70 and consider the implications of that part I have highlighted for us when the added heat to the oceans since pre-industrial times is released back into the atmosphere.

[blockquote]On the Monday Evening 6 o’clock News (18:00 BST) we were treated to a load of propaganda BS from a British gas field worker in the US explaining how fracked gas was going to be a GHG effect beater. [/blockquote]

Lionel, you should join Gen Z. and cease obtaining your information from TV. They have learnt that everything they need to see can be seen on the internet, or downloaded and watched at a time of their convenience. They are escaping the ability of the likes of Murdoch to dictate what they watch and when they watch it.
Generations Y and X are grasping technology and hopefully they will soon follow suit and cease using print media or TV for any purpose whatsoever.

Thanks for the links. Its interesting how Watts – with absolutely and utterly no basic education in population ecology – suddenly enters the fray with his brand of ‘wisdom’. But all of the deniers do it. They are instant experts on anything and everything, at least where climate change is concerned. No formal education required. If a scientist says something they don’t like, and that doesn’t fit in with their pre-determined views, they wade in with their opinions.

This is why so much blog ‘science’ is bullshit. CA, WUWT, Climate Depot, Bishop’s Hill, Nova, etc. Its also why the internet has become the haven for the denial industry. They’d be booted out of academia, so they end up on blogs.

Funded chairs (and nature editorships) are available for eminent scientists in population ecology, like Jeff Harvey (BTW that’s Professor Jeff Harvey to illiterate scum like you). Blog “scientists” of the Denialati (like Watts, Codling, McIntyre & Monckton) their PR prostitutes (like Morano & the Idsos and all the denialist economists) and their tenured, paid & perjuring (and sometimes dead) beards (like Singer, Lindzen, Curry & Pielke Snr (P Jnr is a Political “Scientist”) – and your precious Stevenson) are “respected or generally accepted” by precisely no academic institution or scientific organisation anywhere on the planet – and there are statements to that effect from all such organisations.

From his parsing (and the obsession with green activists), I think that “Joe” is the Kai/Freddy/Eurofascist/NPD Socktroll, not one of SunSpam’s rancid socks, and we all know what the Socktroll’s credibility on things scientific is (“I’m a senior, published climate scientist”).

Rednoise is thicker than both the Socktroll & SunSpam, and shows such a dog-like devotion to the Daily Fail/Thatcher Tory bullshit that he cannot but be from the UK. Now that Betty Birch has fallen off his twig, and Fluke has fucked off, I suspect the sum total of Denier trolls here is no more than three (the Eurofascist, the Tory Git and the creepy local moron SunSpam. Perhaps we can play troll bingo.

Lionel, you should join Gen Z. and cease obtaining your information from TV.

Any information I may get from TV is filtered via my cognitive framework built over many decades by the study of credible sources across a number of scientific and other fields (socio-political through lenses such as Pilger). The sources are text books and journal articles, many used in conjunction with structured courses up to and including university level in Maths and Science and also Humanities, technology (including computer architecture and programming) and a smattering of the arts. Then there was the great university of life which included a long spell in aviation engineering in the RN FAA.

However I do like to know what the others are up to, know thine enemy and all that, which helps in the push back against them.

I do not answer comments written in arrogant hostility and total ignorance of facts. Everybody of you who behaves and expresses himself as if he would be something better or know more than others does not deserve my attention.

Your pitiful and pathetic comment sums up many in denier ranks: mindless trolls who think they can separate real science from the fictional kind.

And then Joe has the audacity to argue that he doesn’t answer comments written in ‘arrogant hostility’after he writes an arrogantly hostile and stupid remark (that population ecology is not a well respected and generally accepted discipline of science et al ad nauseum).

So Joe, who told you that? Or is it simply another made-up-on-the-spot view of a sad moron like you?

Incidentally, Kai, a lot of people now come to Deltoid to see Ignorati mouthbreathers – such as yourself, SunSpam, RedRump etc. – get the shit kicked out of them, because so many honest, intelligent people are sooooooo heartily fucking sick of Denier morons and the endless stream of ordure that torrents forth from you all.

It’s a kind of cruel Roman spectacle where the muppets are on a hiding to nothing – being both naturally, if not preternaturally, stupid, and having nurtured this innate disposition to a species of obtuse perfection – and where the educated who bother to actually read the reports and the papers aren’t tied to being tediously polite to the half-witted, such constraint being, when you think about it, a type of the very political correctness you lot are so passionately opposed to when you think anyone else stands to benefit from it.

(Except not imaginary, as is so usually the case when you decry unearned privilege. Being as you all are mean-spirited shits, as well as dull ones.)

So, in a way, and despite your best efforts, you’re actually performing a kind of community service here… rest easy, though; it’ll be the only one you ever do.

From memory, the Boris sock was on the hand when it used this exact, and quite distinctive, phrasing some months back. From memory again (sorry, but I’m soooo not wasting the time to ferret it out) I think it was in wibbling about him being the Grand Poobah of all things scientific and BBD not being worthy to pass a retort*.

I remember it because it was such an obvious tell that I went off looking for mittel/eastern Eurolanguages that used such distinctive subjunctives. Sunspot couldn’t fake this – even if he were in the mood** to, he still wouldn’t be able to pick a subjunctive, regardless of the imperative***

Why are you guyz so nervouz. Listen to more intelligent people than you:

“The determinant of weather is mainly water in all its forms,” said Dr. Herzberg, “as vapor in the atmosphere, in its heat transport by evaporation and condensation, as the enormous circulating mass of liquid ocean whose heat capacity and mass/energy transport dominate the motions of our atmosphere and the precipitation from it, and finally as cloud, snow, and ice cover which influence the radiative balance between the Sun, the Earth, and free Space.”

Good luck with those links in #60 with the US Govmint shutdown. Those Repuglicans strike again. The whole lot should be booted out. Some are even bragging about shutting down the EPA. They are shameless.

#61 Oh FFS. Of course. Stupid of me. Funnily enough, I was only thinking the same thing yesterday about the more fundamentalist Republicans – the American public needs to get rid of them before their lunatic ideology wrecks the country.

This at a time when there are moves afoot in the UK to use private contract firemen. Already there are private firm run ambulances causing issues in some authorities (local councils to others abroad maybe) and plans to use private security firms for some Police assignments like guarding crime scenes. G4S in the frame for some of these latter so I heard – they did us proud with the Olympics didn’t they – NOT!

Navy, Army and Air Force before long too.

Another era of the society of Garrow’s Law arrives. The well off can have their Duck Houses but the rest will have to earn a crust if they are lucky.

Many Army roles have been taken over by mercenary organisations and the Americans know much about that too, think Blackwater – who were the faces behind many an atrocity in Iraq, actions which also got more regular US grunts killed and maimed.

If some lunatic went on a rampage in Ohio tomorrow and machine-gunned every frickin’ child in an elementary school the chances of getting anything done about gun control – i.e. bring the US on par with the rest of the civilized world – would actually lessen, precisely because these freakin’ lunatics are prepared to sacrifice anything and anyone to their ideology.

GOP / Tea Party wreckers close down gubmint, science, rationality and the future itself, and fall about congratulating themselves in the process. The disease has infected angry white men across the globe. These are the idiots we’re confronting.

Reasoning with them is not working, because they have no commitment to reason. (And as we know from this site they have limited capacity to reason in the first place!)

They are committed only to winning. We cannot let them, and we’ve been pussy-footing around with them for too long.

Check @#69.
What a remarkably strange and unnecessarily rude response.
Concern about Marohasy?
Hardly mate.
I tried to point out to Nick that he was giving her way too much kudos which she did not deserve.
Your comments about billies and sheep dips are most peculiar. Do you think that everyone who lives out in the MDB is some type of country yokel and or uneducated redneck who suffers from a lack of knowledge?
Seemingly Check, old mate, we at least recognise that this September thread is days out of date and has apparently been abandoned by its owner.

Sorry Lotharsson.
There is nothing wrong with my memory. I actually noticed that Tim must have found other places to spend his time.
It becomes very noticeable when one returns to see if there is something new and interesting happening at Deltoid at the start of a new month.
There isn’t and there hasn’t been for many months.
Sad but true and very easy to observe by a quick perusal of the blog.
I am aware you answered a similar question in early September when this blog was still operating under an August thread.

@61 “Good luck with those links in #60 with the US Govmint shutdown. Those Repuglicans strike again. The whole lot should be booted out. Some are even bragging about shutting down the EPA. They are shameless.”

Joe writes, “Why don’t you accept democratic decisions by the elected majority?”

This guy gets dumber by the minute. The electorate in the US don’t matter to those and power and never has. The public in general is miles to the left of its government but that is irrelevant. The US is a plutocracy pure and simple – top down rule and aimed at ensuring the interests of the privileged few are the priority. The two main parties represent the same vested corporate interests.

Plugging the leaks on Deltoid in terms of discussion on climate and other issues is virtually impossible. Just when idiots like Karen, Berendaneke-Freddy, Luke and Sunspot get booted out in comes Joe. The procession of morons never ends. As I pointed out earlier, if this is the general intellectual level of those on the ‘other side’, then no wonder our species is in such deep, deep trouble.

Agreed wrt the US being a plutocracy. Everywhere is, really. The sickening thing is how many lackeys there are. We see some here. The ironic thing is that the lackeys actually think *they* are the independent-minded types. Which is enough to make a cat laugh.

Joe is indeed Kai. The stilted language alone is sufficient proof. Both are idiots.

The idea that the Republicans have a ‘democratic mandate’ to close the US Government down is laughable. But this is precisely the kind of Radical Reaction that appeals to Deniers, what with their being the kind of Radical Reactionaries that imagine themselves to be Libertarians and all.

The Liberty they seek is purely their own, of course, but like good lickspittles everywhere they also want to see rich men freed from the chains of Tyrannical and Oppressive Regulation that bind the poor loves, in the hope that the great men may yet toss them a few bits of silver when next they tug a grateful forelock in the presence of such magnificent opulence.

“Just while you are here, have you noticed that Tim has been in and house-cleaned?”

No, though it’s a good sign.

Something is needed to reset conversation, though. Ethan did an excellent one that, though not perfect, has worked better than my cynical soul had considered, if only because Ethan actually used it to continue to clean up, after which several permatrolls fucked off for (very nearly) good.

(PS I look over in disgust every week or two. You lucked out in catching me on a decent work day. On a normal or bad day, the extra display of human shitheads is just too bloody depressing and annoying and my customers don’t need the fallout from that)

“any idea why the POTUS is not willing to cooperate with the democratically elected majority in Congress??”

Because the elected majority in Congress are not willing to accept the will of the people who democratically voted, nor the house of the senate, nor the duly elected and reaffirmed president of the united states.

The Republicans aren’t acting as representatives of the American electorate. They are engaging in the worst kind of party politics at the expense of the American electorate, who will, I suspect, not thank them for it when all is said and done.

* * *

Please stop copy/pasting lists of non-climate scientists who don’t understand what they are denying. It serves no purpose at all, so you might as well type original content into the little box above the “submit” button.

Try

Barbecue sausage fuck!

Or something like that. At least try to be amusing. It’s the least you can do while we wait for Tim to gets around to blocking your latest sock.

you need to found your assertion “are not willing to accept the will of the people” on facts.

From where do you know what the “will of the people” is? The “will of the people” is democratically expressed by the elected representatives of the people. This is democracy. You should try to learn this.

bill, maybe YOU don’t want me here, but I did not behave incivil, undecent, offending or directly violating like you, BBD or chek. I just want to express my personal opinion like anybody else and am disappointed to be treated as pariah among extremely authoritative people here, like you or BBD, who constantly appeal to authority.

My opinion on “global warming” is, that I am deeply convinced that the factual basis of the hypothesized anthropogenic warming is by far too small to draw the conclusions taken by the IPCC. This is not a political statement but a scientific one.

Obamas health bill was passed by Congress and tested in the Supreme Court, ‘Joe’ some time ago…now the minority teabag rump has decided to f**k with democracy by trying to defund it in exchange for passing vital funding bills. So much for your honesty and grasp of factz. Since you know squat about anything you turn your attention to, you can indeed sod off.

I have just seen some Daily Mail editor, Alex Brummer, on BBC TV complaining that Ed Milliband has turned this into a political point scoring exercise against the Mail and that they the Mail are owed an apology by Milliband. One cannot make this stuff up: