7/15 UPDATE: Material Delay
hey folks-
hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but there has been another delay in the production of our paperweights.
as you recall, back at the beginning of July i posted that Rick was having issues with his metals supplier BTS- they sent him the wrong material and he had to send it back.
they promised him they would send the right stuff ASAP, but he still does not have it and things are falling apart with the company itself. Rick may have to sue them just to get his money back.

Rick has found another supplier that has the material he needs in stock and is ordering it out of his own pocket, rather than wait for his refund from BTS. he doesn't want to hold up production any longer while he gets thing sorted out with them.

what this all means is that in the two weeks since i gave you the last update, no progress has been made and we've lost some time. Rick was hoping to get a lot done on our parts while waiting for the 1911's (for Aimsmall's GB) to come back from heat treating, but that hasn't happened, so now he will not be able to really get started until after he finishes the final machining on the 1911s after they return from the heat-treaters in the next week or so.

bottom line: we're delayed again. this is due to no fault on KTO's part. BTS flaked bigtime and KTO is making it right for us, it will just take a bit longer than hoped. to be safe and avoid making promises that won't be met, i'm going to say that we may be starting the 3 month clock over again. sorry, i know everyone wants their stuff ASAP.
i'll keep you posted with any new developments.

Rick has agreed to ship jigs direct to the end user. This is because the jig is rather large and heavy and although 2 can fit in a USPS Large Flat Rate box, every time he has tried this the box comes apart in transit.
A flat rate box is $16 + insurance. If the jigs ship to MRA first and then to end users, shipping will add ~$40 to the cost. The base price of the jig is $250.

So, KTO will ship direct and can fit up to 2 frames into the box.
According to my records, nobody is buying just a jig and no frames, or more than one jig.

So here is the pricing for those of you ordering jigs, shipped direct to you, including insurance and the $5 "appreciation" fee:

Jig + 1 frame: $580

Jig + 2 frames: $883

If you are buying a jig and > 2 frames, the fee schedule for the remaining frames is the same as before, minus the "appreciation" fee already paid in the jig + frames cost listed above. MRA will handle shipping these frames to the end user.

Cost per frame will be $300 + shipping (see below).The frame will be steel (interest levels will not support both materials, interest in steel was higher, so that's what we'll be ordering. I know that's not what the poll says, but it's wrong.)
It will be originally machined in 2 parts which will be dip-brazed together.
There will be a picatinny accessory rail on the dust cover.
The operations to be finished by the builder are:

We must order at least 100 units.
Shipping will probably add ~ $7-15 to the total cost per order, depending on how many frames you buy ($7 for 1, $11 for 2-5, and $15 for 6-8 units).
There will be an additional fee of up to $5 per participant that will go towards buying a frame for the GB organizer; this is the ONLY compensation that the organizer will receive. No participant will profit from the GB in any other way. (This is how we ran the last KTO GB).

wish i had the cash but dont at this tine, so not in on this GB but wanted to say thanks for doing it in the right order , meaning letting them get the BATFE approval before accepting $$ good job goober and happy building

Quote:

The previous thread was intended to gauge interest and discuss options while KTO was still in the process of getting BATFE approval for their 80% design.

The BATFE has declared the design a non-firearm, so as long as we can come up with a minimum order of 100 frames, the group buy is a GO

whats the turn around time kto is offering? depending on the turn around i'm in or out. i'd be willing to pick up a few if the gb needs it to go through

don't have a concrete answer but it will not be fast. i will check w/ KTO to see how their schedule looks.
keep in mind that although this product is a KTO original, he has not offered it for many years and is going to have to write & test code, make fixtures, etc.; he is completely re-tooling for this run. if it goes well he will start selling them regularly again.
if I had to guess, we are probably looking at 2-3 months from when payment is made. it may take us another couple weeks to a month to get the minimum order. so to be realistic lets just say end of year. may be sooner, but i don't want folks to expect that.
we will of course nail down a deadline when payment is made.

By way of full disclosure, I'd like to point out that Bruce Gray of Grayguns, Inc. has posted some concerns about the strength and durability of a home-built pistol based on this product.
I'd like to keep the discussion of such matters in that thread; please do not post questions or comments here.

Richard says it will take about 3 months from receipt of payment to delivery.
3-4 weeks for programming and building fixtures.
A month to make them, and a month for heat treating (which needs to include shipping to heat treaters and back, so with one week each way that means actually 2 weeks for the actual treating).

Not sure how long it will take us to get to 100 firmly committed units, but add a couple weeks for payment collection and it looks like we are indeed talking about EOY for delivery.

If you're looking for parts, check out the caliber conversion kits on Gunbroker. Also, there're parts kits there occasionally. And this guy usually sells a lower parts kit, he only lists one at a time, but he's been doing this since last year, so he has to have quite a few of them:

Ebay often has parts cheaper than Gunbroker. And if you're missing something and can't find it anywhere else, check out Top Gun Supply and Numrich. They have the parts diagrams too, so you can determine, if you're missing anything.

So, the caliber conversion kit gives you the upper, and finding the lower parts isn't a big deal. Now, if you want a true stamped P228 slide, it'll take you some time to find, especially the breech block for it. However, there's nothing wrong with a forged stainless slide, there's a reason SIG moved to it (they were moving into calibers other than 9mm, and the stamped slide just wasn't strong enough).

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

Well, shoot...
Due to the worries that some folks have over the strength & durability of 6061-T6 in this design, KTO has again offered the option of steel, at a $50 cost increase.
As I posted in the other thread, he had this to say:

Quote:

I have put thousands of rounds down range in an Alum with NO anodizing.
I sold close to 4000 in alum, and no one has ever said anything.
If everyone would like steel (same as 1911's), add $50.
If you really wanted a top notch coating (on aluminum), Hard Anodize with Teflon would be the better choice, hard and self lubricating. It does add .001 per surface, that means a hole will be .002 smaller. Slide rail width would be increased by .002, and depth by .001

When he says thousands of rounds he is talking about 9mm however, and did say that for safety he might go with steel for a .40 cal build rather than unanodized 6061.
And yes, back in the day he did sell that many of these frames.

So we're back to the Steel vs Aluminum quandary. The rub is that we must all agree, we can not mix n' match, unless we want at least 100 of each material.
So its 6061 for $250, or steel for $300.

Much as I hate to bring in this option at this late date (it makes organizing a GB like this MUCH more difficult), I'm adding a poll to this thread.

ETA: Unfortunately, I screwed up and added a multiple choice poll (against my better judgement), rather than a single-choice with more options. If I can revise the poll, I will be doing so, to include options for those that will only buy frame(s) in Aluminum or Steel, for those that will accept either but prefer one, and those with truly no preference. I'm hoping that by having it broken down into those categories we can not only find a consensus but also get a feel for whether we will have the numbers needed for the chosen material. Its imperfect, but hopefully it'll work.
If I have to leave it with the lame multi-choice poll, then I'll just make the best sense of it that I can.
Does anybody know how to remove or re-do a poll?

It's about 3 times denser and 3 times the weight. Setup time would be the same, of course, and tooling. Tool life isn't really a consideration if you are only doing a few, but I know I wouldn't have a concern about strength of one in 9mm. The tensile strength of even unanodized 6061 in 0 state (no heat treat or next to a weld) is close to tens of thousands of lbs and in T6 state, near 40k psi. I'd prefer alum due to the weight of a completed project.

Either one's fine for me. I prefer aluminum, as I already have two steel frames, and I only have one .40 kit. However, I'll go with either.

Now, if he goes with steel frames for the aliminum price, I'll up my order to 3. Can't be that much more complicated than a 1911 frame...

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

If i'm going to put in the time to build quality I prefer everything I work with to be quality. I'd like to have my work last long and take a beating so i'm opting for the steel frame. It may be harder to cut then aluminum but nothing good in life comes easy.

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

My question would be where to get the parts to finish these frames into say, a p229 9mm elite? Will Sig sell all parts of specific models minus the frame? I don't want to commit if I'm not certain I can finish them.

My question would be where to get the parts to finish these frames into say, a p229 9mm elite? Will Sig sell all parts of specific models minus the frame? I don't want to commit if I'm not certain I can finish them.

Your best bet is the caliber conversion kits for the upper (about $270-320) and buying lower parts wherever you can find them cheap. A guy on Gunbroker sells lower parts kits for P228/229/226, they close for anywhere from $50 to $150. Top Gun Supply has most of SIG parts, Numrich has them too, but for more money, of course. Check out Ebay, as well. They have SIG slides and barrels there every now and then. You can get the slides for as low as $50-75, and the barrels for $45-90.

Occasionally there's a complete parts kit on Gunbroker, but rarely so. I got a complete P229 parts kit in .40 from Gunbroker for $216 a couple of month ago, and a P226 in 9mm - for $204. Just making sure I get the SIG parts before there's extra demand for them

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

FYI, from what I read, P226 is the hardest build for these (few people have done it, for that reason).

__________________
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
"Thou shalt not interfere with the Second Amendment rights of "law-abiding" citizens who want AK-47s only to protect hearth and home." - Paul Helmke finally gets it :)

folks, i have been mostly out of circulation w/ work-related travel for several weeks- but i wanted to check in and say i will update counts and check in w/ KTO ASAP, probably in the next couple weeks.
sorry for the lack of updates lately, please be assured this thing is not dead.
(it better not be, i just scored 3 DLASK P228 parts kits (only 1 w/ barrel)