Ya, but his poor judgement led to a war that killed thousands of Alliance.

That counts for quite a lot too.

So?

Varian was already seeking war with the Horde as far back as Wrath; then the Horde got a leader who wouldn't appease the Alliance and stood toe to toe against them. Both sides are guilty, and neither is more "deserving" of justice. If Thrall is to be punished, than surely Jaina needs to be exiled or punished as well.

Varian was already seeking war with the Horde as far back as Wrath; then the Horde got a leader who wouldn't appease the Alliance and stood toe to toe against them. Both sides are guilty, and neither is more "deserving" of justice. If Thrall is to be punished, than surely Jaina needs to be exiled or punished as well.

Jaina's city isn't being sacked, though.

Still wouldn't be surprised if she ends up carking it.

If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

Cone on people, you're making Traskk look reasonable level headed here. Thrall is not to blame for what Garrosh did. GARROSH is responsible for what he's done. Thrall made a mistake, yes. But Garrosh is a big boy now, he can take responsibility for his own damn actions.

The anology would be giving a guy a gun to defend his home, but then instead he goes and robs the neighbor with it, if you want to stick with the gun analogy. And it's not like Thrall was off goofing around. He was SAVING ALL OF AZEROTH and didn't have time to ponder who to replace him, or groom someone to succeed him. Thrall made a mistake, and he's now stepping in to help rectify it. But Garrosh isn't a child, he can assume responsibility for his own crimes and failures.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Varian was already seeking war with the Horde as far back as Wrath; then the Horde got a leader who wouldn't appease the Alliance and stood toe to toe against them. Both sides are guilty, and neither is more "deserving" of justice. If Thrall is to be punished, than surely Jaina needs to be exiled or punished as well.

Its Varian who should be held accountable, he instigated this and caused the conflict to boil over, and then has the audacity to act like he's all mellow about it now.

But alliance fanzies don't want to hold there own leader accountable.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 01:20 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Florena

Cone on people, you're making Traskk look reasonable level headed here. Thrall is not to blame for what Garrosh did. GARROSH is responsible for what he's done. Thrall made a mistake, yes. But Garrosh is a big boy now, he can take responsibility for his own damn actions.

The anology would be giving a guy a gun to defend his home, but then instead he goes and robs the neighbor with it, if you want to stick with the gun analogy. And it's not like Thrall was off goofing around. He was SAVING ALL OF AZEROTH and didn't have time to ponder who to replace him, or groom someone to succeed him. Thrall made a mistake, and he's now stepping in to help rectify it. But Garrosh isn't a child, he can assume responsibility for his own crimes and failures.

Your trying to make children understand the meaning of regret and remorse. Most don't understand this until they experience it, which is why such lessons are wasted on the wow community.

I really don't think Thrall is to blame at all. Its more the non-uniform writing of Garrosh's character that paints Thrall's judgment as inept. To Thrall, Garrosh is the more honorable, albeit still brash and very reckless orc we see in low level Cataclysm quests, in Heart of War, and even in some of the dialogue in 5.1. He knew the shortcomings of Garrosh, but he still had faith in him to be an honorable, respectable orc. It was a case of fatal optimism, seeing the best someone can be and sometimes even ignoring their flaws to a fault.

The problem arises from bad writing, like seen in Baine's short story when Garrosh shifts from character to caricature. The over-the-top writing to make Garrosh look like a belligerent warmonger only serves to make Thrall look worse by making Garrosh seem so transparently bloodthirsty.

I really don't think Thrall is to blame at all. Its more the non-uniform writing of Garrosh's character that paints Thrall's judgment as inept. To Thrall, Garrosh is the more honorable, albeit still brash and very reckless orc we see in low level Cataclysm quests, in Heart of War, and even in some of the dialogue in 5.1. He knew the shortcomings of Garrosh, but he still had faith in him to be an honorable, respectable orc. It was a case of fatal optimism, seeing the best someone can be and sometimes even ignoring their flaws to a fault.

The problem arises from bad writing, like seen in Baine's short story when Garrosh shifts from character to caricature. The over-the-top writing to make Garrosh look like a belligerent warmonger only serves to make Thrall look worse by making Garrosh seem so transparently bloodthirsty.

Actually Thrall wanted to see that in him from the start, just as he saw it in his old friend Grom. He had faith he would work out. But once Cairne was killed because of Garrosh, Thrall was already on the set path to fighting against deathwing, and could do nothing about it. He held faith that things might work out, which is all he had to go on, given the importance of his situation.
When it came to the elemental bonds quest chain, we discover those feelings were eating him up inside. no, he didn't think Garrosh was a good choice by now, but his path was already set. He grieved for the loss of Cairne, but more so, his anger deep inside showed he held a burning hate for what Garrosh had done.
He got his feeling in check, and was able to focus on his mission.

And now, after cataclysm, he is showing signs of taking responsibility for that choice he made, fighting against his own kor'kohn, the ONLY horde character I'll add who has gone as far to step up and take first strike against Garrosh's goons (Vol'jin did so but in self defense).

What is this' varian is responsible for Garrosh' stuff? If people are talking about their interactions in Wrath, they were both egging eachother on. If you're talking about UC, I don't think Garrosh was even there, and even if you count it they established a temporary truce post ICC. After that, the two didn't meet again until Wolfheart if I'm not mistaken.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

All these silly analogies fail to take into account that the Thrall in the situation had seen that the Garrosh was not good at all the what he was given and had shown and stated that would only use it for something bad and his friends had told him so.

Being able to save the world does account for a bit, but Thrall's awful decision was a leadership problem and thus the two aren't in the same boat when justifying Thrall. His decision to go full on World Shaman helped save the planet, on the flip side it almost destroyed the races that live there.
Thrall showed he could work very well as a Shaman but also showed he wasn't Mr perfect leader when it came to decision making. It's also worth bearing in mind that Thrall's rule wasn't perfect either.
I still believe he should have a leadership position, but I feel the position of Warchief is too ambitious now and that he did his part to create a new future for them.

I can guarantee you that canon will leave the Alliance in no position to make demands from the Horde. Don't forget, Siege of Orgrimmar is not an Alliance-only raid.

This exactly. We as the players never get credited with any major boss kill. There is always an established "canon" lore character who is credited with it. So, while the Alliance may have a raid in game, to make it fair that everyone has the same raid, the actual siege may be, according to cannon lore, performed by the factions of the horde.

So we are blaming Thrall for his choice in the past, based upon what Garrosh is doing today?
Do we think that those major chars can see the future?

Garrosh got corrupted by power, as quite a few people are nowadays btw; this is not a rare thing.
Blaming Thrall would mean that Thrall, at that time, knew that Garrosh would be corrupted this much and go as far as he did.
I don't think this is the way to judge him...

I remember when Thrall made the choice, a lot of players where exited and happy about it. They didn't know at that time what would happen, neither did Thrall.

Exile Thrall? That is gthe most stupid thing I heard. The guy saved the whole world....... enough said.

At this point there is no better Warchief for the Horde than Thrall; I hope to see him back as Warchief.

Did Orcshaman24 finally get banned again? Thank the Elements, maybe we can have some reasonable conversations now.

While Thrall and his Jesusy-ness irritate the heck out of me, and I want him out of the story for the most, exiling him seems extreme. He did hand leadership of the Horde to one of the *least* qualified leaders available, and I think that should be recognized by the rest of the Horde and other world leaderships. He's at least partly responsible for what's happened. To actually exile him for it just doesn't seem right, though.

Personally, I'd like to see a completely new warchief. I still want it to be an orc, though. Zaelera, perhaps?