Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Ben Stein shows us a world where Academia's freedom of inquiry might not be so free. This should be a concern for anyone and everyone. This undermines the concept that we will be teaching facts and truth in our universities. However, if you watch how this documentary is formatted you will find that this documentary is overly biased, delving into spectrums of propaganda! Let me explain. Stein sets about proving his premise by interviewing scientists that have been rejected by the establishment. Scientists who have allegedly had their lives ruined because of their belief in something called "Intelligent Design." Science isn't here to persecute people's beliefs and this concept would probably outrage anyone... that is until you realize the lengths he goes to paint science as the root of this evil.

So, we have Stein interviewing scientists that have had their qualifications ruined by the establishment, wouldn't you think Stein should interview people working in the scientific community at the time about this issue? If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he'd go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens. Either Stein is a just a terrible host for a documentary and should stick to the game shows, or he has an agenda. Stein does interview PZ Myers, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott, and the mighty Richard Dawkins for his grand finale, but he never once asks them about the people that were fired or denied tenure. He only sticks to questions concerning how life began.

He doesn't even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught. He never asks these questions. Michael Ruse, who isn't even credited during his interview (more sloppy documentary work), proposes a possible life beginning scenario involving crystals. This results in Stein asking him again how it's possible... after Ruse just told him and results in what can be interpreted as a rude response from Ruse. This style of filming to show scientists as unwilling to entertain the idea of Intelligent Design pushes the viewer to see science as intolerable.

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Comments and User Reviews

Lavender

Me thinks thou dost protest too much, thereby giving Stein credibility. Really, if this were about anything BUT ID, would you have gone off on a 4,000+ word rant? You certainly don't provide that much commentary with most (if any) of your other docs. My husband is a Ph.D. in Mathematics, so he's no irrational, illogical dummy. And his personal research indicates that there's not much science behind evolution, no matter how much faux "scientific" bs they pull out of their asses. It's basic, foundational premise HAS to be: life came from non-life. THAT goes against all OBSERVABLE phenomenon, which is the basis of all science: a phenomena is observed; from which hypotheses are then drawn; experiments contrived; and hypotheses then proven or disproven. How in the h#ll does evolution fill that bill?! So things adapt ("micro-evolution")-- Big whoop! My husband's conclusions about evolution, based on personal research: it's based on faith, just as the religions it despises and denigrates. In fact, it's basis of faith is WHY it so despises religion. After all, you won't find physicists, chemists, & mathematicians attacking religion with such fervor -- Only "scientific" evolutionists. There's something going on there, and it ain't rational science, no matter how much they say it is (i.e., the BIG LIE: say something long enough, loud enough, and everyone will believe it).

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

Don't worry Lavender. 4000+ words in this review are not actually mine. In fact they are taken from Amazon as it's stated at the end of it. Believe me... the length of this review in comparison to others here on TDF is just a coincidence and nothing more, or maybe the only reason for the length of this review is because this documentary is still not available for on-line watching.

Richard K.

@Lavender

I would like to inform you that having a PhD in Mathematics does not make him someone who can challenge people with PhDs in life sciences. He is good with numbers, but he definitely does not know the mechanism of evolution, else he wouldn't have said its based on "faith". Not just "evolutionists" (they are called biologists, by the way), but every field of science that is not in accordance to the bible (geology, astrophysics etc) is attacked by proponents of ID. You can believe what you want to ma'am, but evolution is a fact. And another fact - this documentary is horribly skewed in favor of the supporters of ID, which definitely is not science,

http://www.vitaloverdose.com Vitaloverdose

lolol.. is this guy serious?

http://silkop.blogspot.com silkop

Ben Stein is a master of failure. He fails at giving financial advice, film making, science, politics, intelligence, compassion ... you name it. The only thing he sort of succeeds at is making people laugh at him. Maybe he's a covert clown.

III

interesting how id proponents rely on baseless hypothesise to advance their cause. i guess all the credible science was taken...

however as an atheist i wish creationist nonsense were taught in schools so the young could see for themselves how unintelligent it is firsthand.

evidence > faith

quick

I didnt know that nazis used to kill people.
what an eyeopener, Ben

Spiderman156

This movie is offensive for many reasons, only some of them being the conjecture that people who see Darwin's theory as being valid thus are lead to not have morals and see life as worthless, that there is not a single piece of evidence put forth for Intelligent Design, only the disagreements of scientists with the theory, in the film Ben Stein says that "Darwinists" have gone from promoting evolution to bashing religion while ignoring the debate while he does the same thing, he ignores the fact that he presents no evidence for Intelligent Design and just shows some scientists opinions on lackings within Darwin's theory which are valid, but Darwin's theory is not made to cover the areas they have issues with, and lastly that Intelligent Design, no matter if you agree with Darwin or not because for this point it is hardly relevant, cannot at all be science. Science is based upon empirical observation that is analyzed and has conclusions based upon it which are then tested for credibility, then after a sufficient theory is established hypotheses are created and tested to hold up new advancements in the field, but Intelligent Design at its core cannot possibly do that because it is based upon the idea of an unknowable force starting life which is by definition beyond empirical observation so calling Intelligent Design science is just incorrect and therefore is untestable, and not to mention the point that Intelligent Design unlike all other scientific theory does not have any hypotheses that predict anything that we can test and observe. I am not against the advancement of any idea, no matter what it is and these statements may seem to counter that but Intelligent Design is untestable as a scientific theory and is therefore useless to speak about as a science, at most as philosophical. Lastly, I am sorry if I am reiterating anything someone has previously stated, I just needed to say this myself.

Pink

Spiderman156, you said:
"Science is based upon empirical observation that is analyzed and has conclusions based upon it which are then tested for credibility, then after a sufficient theory is established hypotheses are created and tested to hold up new advancements in the field"

Two Questions:
1) Can science test and prove what sparked the creation of the universe before the universe existed? (Obviously, scientists will tell you that the universe is finite in terms of age and size if you've ever studied astronomy/astrophysics.)

2) Can science test if and how matter is created out of nothing (no space, no time, no energy, no matter/particles, nothing at all)? How can we test the creation of matter out of nothing, when our very existence resides in SOMETHING (space, time, etc.) at all points in time?

Until these two things can be tested and proved, you have shot yourself in the foot with your own argument.

Pinkish Hue

Pink

Thank you!

No one can or will understand the origin of the universe!

mike

Exploding a Myth: Conventional Wisdom or Scientific Truth?

by Dr. Jeremy Dunning-Davies

sonny

all I can say is that we are all still Idiots and Morons in reference with the infinity of numbers and universe. Science and Religions are good but are not both purely rational at all. Sometimes logic can lead you into something wrong conclusions, so you have to be very stupid at the end.

So what the difference? We're still idiots and morons when think it is better to have some faith, in this case God exists..
Ben Stein is stupid at all but still he broke the wall.. definitely there's a Mover, there is a God.

Sarah

Pink, you said:
"Can science test and prove what sparked the creation of the universe before the universe existed? (Obviously, scientists will tell you that the universe is finite in terms of age and size if you’ve ever studied astronomy/astrophysics.)"
^^^^Ummm, it's not obvious at all that scientists would say that. If you've ever studied QUANTUM physics or string theory you'd know this. They would say the opposite...

Also, you said:
"2) Can science test if and how matter is created out of nothing..."
^^^^Yup, we are working on ways to test this. Look into quantum physics. We may very well have the answer within the next 20 years.

And Pinkish Hue, you said:
"No one can or will understand the origin of the universe!"
^^^^Are you from the future? Because that's the only way you could rationally make that statement. How long ago was it that some scientist claimed we would never know what stars were made of?

There is a mountain of successive, cross-referential, multidisciplinary scientific evidence to support evolution, and none at all to support creationism. The only thing propping up creationism is the persistent belief in an ancient secular deity with no modern relevance, and the persistent denial of truth.

Kilaz

It would be so simple to never question.
So I don't know the answer , it must be an intelligent architec.
So simple...
Being that it is hilarious , it should be expelled by your rectum.
The man argumenting is a lawyer.
The man is a lawyer....
I rest my case.

Well well

Freedom of speech does not mean that scientific community should accept superstitions into science. What a moron!

ID is not science! Believing in ID does not make you INTELLIGENT! I think it is a good thing that people who claim ID in scientific circles are treated with utter scepticism. I think that they should propably be fired if they try to misuse funds for studying ID.

Roxcie

Can someone explain the definition of "documentary". In my understanding of the term this movie does not qualify.

Adam

Well well, Spiderman156, etc.,
This is the case and point of the film. Anything other than the accepted Neo-Darwinistic ideologies, is rabidly attacked while the precious pet ideology is babied and defended, which you all have so aptly proven. When only ridicule is used to attack an ID, it becomes strikingly evident that reasons are lacking. A challenge to Neo-Darwinism is simply laughed to scorn and mocked rather than examined, as SCIENCE is supposed to do. As for the film, the point was not so much to defend ID, but point out that those who offer ID as an alternative theory, are treated as I just said. Also, no one is asking that ID be accepted over Neo-Darwinism, but that those who suggest it should not be black-balled, ridiculed, and shunned. The fact that a suggestion by lone scientists (that ID could be a plausible explanation for some of the questions of origins) is automatically assumed to mean "that [the] scientific community should accept superstitions into science" [quoted from comments above], speaks volumes about the real motives, biases, and fears of those that believe Darwinism. Why would they put words in the mouths of these lone scientists, unless those words were exactly what they are afraid will happen? Their pet doctrine is one the line, along with their worldview and system of morality. THIS is the bottom line.

@g33kch1ck. Typical generalized hogwash. Good for effect to those that want to believe what you say. If you just watch the video, very smart people, just like the scientists that support Neo-Darwinism, based on evidence they examine, question the legitimacy of Darwinsim and consider other ideas of cosmogony.

@III. I think to you, intelligence = evolution. Thereby, everyone that does not accept evolution is not intelligent. No other idea can be possible. The implications are too great to allow it to be considered.

Sarah

Adam:

The debate over evolution ended in the 20th century. It's been accepted by the scientific community, and only those who find it clashing with their religion deny it. That's why creationists are ridiculed. The proof is there but can't argue with these people. They have not one single piece of valid science, and refuse to listen to facts. They create false propaganda, and merely hinder the progress of science.

It's the same thing that happened when the church to tried to quash the belief that the earth revolved around the sun. Because this would be at odds with the belief that god created us with the universe around us. Those people finally lost, and we look back at them and laugh... they were ignorant fools.

The same thing is happening with creationism - you want to believe that you're special and that god made the universe specifically for you, to revolve around you. I just hope you know that future generations will be laughing at you, and your children's children will probably just be embarrassed by you.

Please join the 21st century. Stop hindering science, because it has done everything for you. It has cured diseases, given you that computer, and your health, and probably a car to drive in... what has religion done? Nothing. Religion ruled the world for 2000 years and I'm sorry, but it sucked. Disease, death, starvation, war... failure. And yet somehow it has still been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Too bad. But this century belongs to science, not moronic bronze-age superstitions.

This movie is an embarrassment to humanity. Both the people who made it, and those who rally behind it should be ashamed.

Adam

@Sarah,

I have no problem with science. Good and legitimate science has benefited mankind in many ways. I find it humorous that you equate believing in God's creative work with a denial of the value of science. Again, as in my first post, common evolutionist rhetoric. I really wish people with your opinion would stop acting like their faith is "science." It is all smoke and mirrors. I think the only ones who really have a terribly biased opinion are people the parrot exactly what every other anti-religion person (like yourself) says. Also, you blame most, if not all, of the worlds historical ills on religion, some of which is true. But, as the video pointed out, one of the worst (and modern, I might add) acts of humankind was a result of your 'faith'. I would make an assumption that in your younger years, Sarah, you believed in God and His creative work. I think you probably abandoned it for evolution. It is sad that your faith was toppled. I hope you will again see what is so obvious, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." As for my kids in three generations, I will quote Robert Jastrow, "For the scientist, who lives by faith in his own intelligence, the end of the way is turning out to be a horrible dream. He is climbing up a mountain of ignorance and he is about to reach the top. As soon as he is ready to make his last push and almost stands on the top, he is welcomed by the company of theologians, who have been seating there for centuries."

Eric D

Just Theorising:
Is it possible that aliens from other parts of the universe visited the earth and tried genetic experiments, thus accounting for the variety of species that have developed over time. Sounds mad doesn'it? But what if it was true what will that say about science and or religion.
Evolution might sound and attractive alternative to creationism, however, it will be advisable that scientist like religious people be humble in what ever discovery they make. You never know what nasty surprise awaits you as you relish your savoury triumph of fact over faith. Pride goes before a fall. For those who see God in the light of religion that is another problem, religion gives humane attributes to a non-human entity. Nobody has seen God yet everyone claims to either know that He(for lack of better article: God might just not be a he or she or it) exist or completely deny that He does. If you have never seen an iguana does it mean it does not exist? Or if you have been told by ancestors that God was an old man with a long beared does that imply you accept it on "faith". If we consider these question carefully then wwe will see just how arrogant and ignorant and insignificant we human beings are. If we look at our planetary position in the milky way(our galaxy) which is in this universe of galaxies, then we begin to see that we are practically non-existent, to say the least we are as important as a grain of sand in the sea.

Sarah

Adam: yeah, sure, you don't have a problem with Science... except all the science that clashes with a 2000 year old book of fairy tales that some grandmother once shoved down your throat... Do you believe demons cause disease? The earth sits on 'pillars'? (Both in there).

And to call science 'faith'... please. Just please. Faith means to believe blindly, without any kind of proof. Look up the word. Science is the exact opposite. There is no faith required in science.

Also, to say science caused the Holocaust... that's equivalent to saying the theory of gravity causes plane crashes. Gravity would exist whether we knew about it or not... just like Hitler would have been a racist bigot whether he knew about Darwin's theories or not.

But deny gravity if you like. Go ahead. Maybe it'll help you to fly... because we actually have more evidence, and more documented proofs that support evolution then we do to explain gravity. Yeah, that's right we don't FULLY understand gravity yet... but do you see people wandering around denying it? (I don't know, maybe in Jesus-land they do - 'god is pushing us down from above' - you tell me?)

Sorry for getting so stirred up. Ignorance, and intolerance of science really bother me. I hope you open your eyes a little, just look at the cold hard facts. You can still be 'saved' (lol, a little of your own medicine there - my churchy aunt mentions it to me every time we meet).

Peace.

Achems Razor

Pushing aside the Dinosaur bones. The belief that the universe is 6000 years old means Creationists do not know how to add!

It is a simple 2+2=4 thing. Speed of light is 186,000 miles per sec.
It takes 8 min. for the light from the Sun to reach us. The next closest Star is Alpha-Centuri 2.4 light years away. The furthest Galaxies in the deep field of space is 13 billion light years away. We are looking at them when they were first formed 13 billion years ago!

This means that light was traveling for 9 billion years before Earth was even formed 4 billion years ago!

6000 years verses 13 billion years do not add up!

CHE

Hahahahaha omg hahahahaha this is the funniest movie iv'e ever seen in my life! No lie haha I can not believe that people like Ben Stein exist! I give up all faith in the human race now, I can now die in peace. The human race is not worth saving if people like these exist. I rather die and not exist, than to share a universe with morans!

Dan

The simplest known self-reproducing organism (H39 strain of Mycoplasma) has 625 proteins averaging 400 amino acids each. However, some contend that, theoretically, one might get by with 124 such proteins. What are the chances of one of these proteins of 400 “left-handed” amino acids forming from a mixture of both “right-” and “left-handed” ones? One chance in 10 to the 120th power (1 followed by 120 zeros).
However, for this nonexistent cell 124 proteins are needed. What are the chances of spontaneously forming that many, all from “left-handed” molecules? One chance in 10 to the 14,880th power. But these amino acids cannot be tied together just indiscriminately; they must be in the right sequence. To get these 124 proteins, averaging 400 “left-handed” amino acids each, with the acids in the correct sequence, the chances are 1 in 10 to the 79,360th power (1 followed by 79,360 zeros). If there is less than a 1 in 10 to the 50th power chance for something to happen, it will never happen, no matter how much time is allowed.

Debra

It is evident from the movie and from comments on here that supporters of ID often confuse evolution with chance. It's the old 747 argument (if a strong wind blew through a junk yard what are the chances that it would blindly assemble a 747? Therefore, if life is at least as complex as a 747 it could not have been created by chance).

Of course, the 747 argument is correct. Life could not have started or developed into the wide array of species we see today by chance. Thankfully, it didn't have to... natural selection was a much better option, and that's the point.

People often confuse evolution and natural selection. Some of the first ocean dwelling creatures EVOLVED into land dwelling creatures. The process by which they evolved was NATURAL SELECTION.

Natural selection is the backbone of evolution and is the main reason that "Darwinists" find it so frustrating that ID proponents can't see that evolution is a far easier, much neater explanation for life, then some creator zapping every creature into existence.

Natural selection works on genetic mutation. Something we can see and test today. Every organism has mutations in its genes. Today, because life has evolved to be so complex, many of these mutations go unnoticed without a DNA study. Some mutations are clearly harmful (how long would an albino rabbit live in summer in dark surroundings), and some are clearly beneficial (black peppered moths had an advantage when tree lichen died in the industrial revolution, white ones when lichen flourished).

Closer to the beginning of life the number of good vs bad vs unexpressed mutations were roughly equal. Mutation is a strictly random, blind process. However, those with harmful mutations did not survive long enough to reproduce and those with beneficial mutations reproduced more than those with unexpressed mutations. This is how evolution operates.

If two cells exist that both have protein pumps and a genetic mutation causes one cell to extrude an adhesive filament to attach to a surface, thereby allowing it more nutrients and the ability to divide more often, there will be more copies of this cell than others who just float around and do not have constant access to nutrients. Cells divide fast (and in fact this is where many genetic mutations occur) and some of these copies will have mutations. Some of those mutations will be harmful and that cell will not mature enough to divide. However, over time another cell has a mutation that allows this exuded adhesive filament to rotate, propelling it along. Now we have bacteria with flagellum that can locate their own sources of nutrients.

ID tells us that these simple to follow steps are less likely then a creator who designed species with all sorts of genetic mutations (good, bad, and unexpressed) and then designed the next step and the next, without one evolving into the next.

Evolution is not the same as chance. It is a biological process which explains the diversity of life. Evolutionary theory is testable and, unlike ID, all the proofs are there to let us know that it is valid.

Charles B.

Debra:

Natural selection is your enemy, and not the savior of the eveolutionary theory as you would hope.

I've spoken directly to a pelentologist who became a Christian after doing all his scientific work (he spoke at our church), and he said that natural selection is not the answer for the following reason: mutations are 99.999999999% destructive to the organism involved. It's not even close to 50/50 as your argument might have one to assume. In fact, science is hard pressed to find a single mutation in an advanced genetic structure, that is 100% benefitial. Can you name a single one? Maybe one or two. Now can you even name a single one that changes the creature's basic structure from one form to another, even in the slightest? None. Viruses are the only mutations that I can think of that have any great advantage for the thing mutating, but we are far from viruses.

Let's get away from the cellular level and talk about things as a whole. If evolution is correct, there should be millions and billions and trillions of evolutionary "links" between not just reptiles and bird, but plants and bacteria, and in fact "all life" as we know it. Trillions and trillions of mutations that succeeded and found their way into the fossil record, right? Sorry. Just not there. We find example after example of perfectly formed animals and plants; perfect in every way in the fossile record--no imperfect animals; ever.

The scientist I met gave as an example of a lizzard mutating into a bird (yea, Jerassic Park!), The bones would have to change (bird bones are quite unique to other animals), the skeltal structure would have to chagne (wings), the blood would have to change (be be a warmblooded animal), the ears, the jaws, the feet, and everything about the reptile is different from the bird; even simlar looking things like the eyes are just not the same. Not just small changes, but massive huge, life-killing biological reconstucting of the whole animal. He said that "Nothing works until everything works perfectly." So, a half formed "lizzard chicken" would be devistatingly crippled as it could neither walk nor fly, couldn't see, couldn't eat, couldn't hear, it couldn't mate, and most likely couldn't even breath, properly etc. and would be easy prey for any creature that wanted to eat it.

Even if you try and change just ONE thing, like the ears, the slightest change would cause deafness, so you'd have to believe that the change from a reptile's ears to a bird's ears would have to be wholeistic, not partial step by step. A mirical, if fact!

Natural selection prefers perfection, not change; Even the slightest change would bring weakness to a perfect creature, and nature has proven to be merciless (your whole argument for natural selection) to the weak.

In order for the natual selection portion of your argument to be correct, then the universe had to tollerate deformed and mutated and helpless creatures for millions of years while they developed back into separate and perfect spieces. Minor changes can occure in a group of annimals such as color change (like your moths you mentione) or minor adaptations (like blind cave fish), but animals remain basically the same: birds are birds; and reptiles are reptiles; plants are plants; fish are fish; bacteria are bacteria; people are poeple. As far as I know none of your pepper moths changed anything except thier colors.

Natural selection is not your friend in terms of the evolutionary theory, but evolution's worst enemy, because nothing works until everything works perfectly.

In clonclustion, I would just like to get back to your cellular level mutation argument. As a Creationist, I don't believe that God created imperfection (things with bad mutations as you stated), but rather perfection. As time and a sinful world takes it's toll on our DNA makeup the model is degrading, not improving. We are breaking down one generation after the next, not evolving DNA wise, especially the male y-chromozome is degenerating quickly.

Steven Hawkings also says the universe as a whole is "dying". Evolution isn't happening, but in fact the opposite is true. Nonetheless, do not dispare. Even in a time of great ignorance, God recorded in His Word that in the proper time there would need to be created a new Heavens and a new Earth--the old ones we now live in are not eteranl. How comforting it is to know that God in His soverienty has had it all figured out from the dawn of time until now when he made the first perfect in every way creatures on this lovely planet. And no, they are not "steps" as you mentioned, but each is perfect for it's place and reason.

Sorry Vlatko, again for taking up so much of your surver space. I appologize. When I hear an argument that sounds so good, but I know there are some big loopholes (in my opinion), it's hard not to respond, but that's the purpose of the documentaries---to learn and to think, isn't it? :-) I am thankful for your gracious nature.

unique

the picture of him on the cover wearing a school uniform is... disturbing.

at the end of the day you can believe what you want about evolution, but if you're a doubter and you get sick, make sure you ask the doctor for the antibiotics that would have treated the disease before it evolved into a drug resistant superbug.

Robbie

Responding to an earlier post, I think a PhD in mathematics does not make you an expert in life sciences, but it DOES give you a logical way of thinking (probably more so than other areas). Any mathematician doesn't believe what he hears, he has to prove it, or at least have substantial evidence. I am a mathematician myself, and have studied thoroughly both ID and evolution. I can tell you that there is definitely a huge problem with evolution in the sense that no one knows exactly where it came from and how it began.

I'd like to also mention something without receiving a huge wave of criticism and mocking. Whenever I try to have a logical conversation with proponents of evolution, their arguments usually are sarcastic and intimidating in nature, trying to show how "stupid" it is to believe that evolution may not be as solid a theory as many think. I long to have a decent, scientific conversation with an evolutionist; I am willing to look at the facts and not be swayed by what I think should happen according to my beliefs. I want the truth.

I think that many people who defend evolutionism haven't actually studied it deeply (and have definitely not studied the ID theory) with an unbiased mind that only seeks the truth. I challenge whoever reads this, that if you want to have a rational argument with someone, not only study your side, but also do a deep study of what your "opponent" believes to be true.

There's no doubt that many ID supporters also do the same thing, but I'm focusing on evolutionists because I don't argue blindly, and I would like to have a good rational talk with a supporter of evolution.

havealook

It is called the Theory of Evolution not the Facts of Evolution...theory comprises much of human thinking, observation, ideas, etc...We are subjective: look at Shrodegers Cat (quantum mechanics/uncertainty principle)...have fun enjoy the ideas and opinions-why go to war over thoughts?

Jari

I have unanswered questions on both the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design. My questions on Intelligent Design outweigh my questions on the Theory of Evolution.
Therefore, until the "Intelligent Designer" provides physical evidence that it created everything by itself, I have no choice but to go with my logical way of thinking (which comes naturally and works well with everyday life) and conclude that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation there is about life on Earth.
An overwhelming majority of people who accept Evolution are highly educated people who prove to be successful in making our lives better through scientific endeavors (medicines, machines, computing, etc...).
An overwhelming majority of people who believe in a designer/god are religious people with no or little higher education. The less educated a society is, the more it leans towards a belief in a supernatural power.

donot taunt happy from ball

Biological Cell Theory is in crisis.

Robbie

Dear Jari,

You said that "An overwhelming majority of people who believe in a designer/god are religious people with no or little higher education. The less educated a society is, the more it leans towards a belief in a supernatural power."

Do you have any research or statistics to back up your strong statements? If so, I would like to see them. If not, I assume that you intuitively think that that is how it must be, probably based on your experience. Well, just to be fair, I'd like to share that my experience has been quite different. I know a large number of Christians (most Christian adults I know, actually) who are at least college graduates, and most have some sort of graduate degree. It is true that many non educated people are Christians, due to the fact that Christianity is so appealing to people of all classes, and it gives everyone a second chance.

I admire the fact that you question both sides, not many do. To me, it's extremely logical and intuitive that there is a Creator, and that all animals do not share a common ancestor. Part of my opinion is based on philosophical arguments, such as man being aware of himself, being able to say no to nature and not be governed by laws that govern all other animals (Scheller), etc. I also ask myself, How can something come out of nothing (the Big Bang)? Even though physicists like Stephen Hawking, etc., have tried to answer this question, I have not been satisfied with any explanation I have read.

To me, the universe makes much more sense if God exists.

Achems Razor

Robbie:

I would tend to agree, a good portion of Christian people are highly
educated. But with what degrees, and what Colleges?

Are they Colleges with science academia? That would be conflict of interest would it not? The universe 6000 years old verses 14.7 billion
years old. What do they do with the dinosaur bones? do they push them aside? as per religion.

I do not believe in creationism belief, or the theory of evolution.
I believe in spirituality, which is not the same as religion.

Religion is from old Latin root word, meaning to bind together people sharing contemporaneous beliefs of the times.

Spirituality and science can mix, religion and science never will!

A God Beleiver

Science can only prove that Life ends in Death, it can Not prove that Dead became, or becomes, Alive. I beleive in Intelligent Design by a Creator. GOD. If I did not I would probably have no respect for others and take what I needed to survive. No remorse, and no guilt or regrets. People who think they are above others and are going to dictate what you should think and beleive are the dangerous ones, in my opinion.

Tim

God Believer, I don't think you'd be such a terrible person if you didn't believe in Intelligent Design. What you're describing is a sociopath. And most people who don't believe in I.D. are not sociopaths.

A God Believer

What do you beleive ? Tim..Live and let live ?...Dog eat dog ? Survival of the fitest ? What ? I beleive in a God of good. If I did not then what? I would be more accepted by folks like yourself? Spare me. The world is run by evil, and this great country, and your freedom as well as mine, is going to shit due to misguided minds, full of corruption and greed, with a lack of morality and ethics. Political correctness gets in the way of sensability and fairness. Not to worry tho, because ID beleivers and Darwinist's will be side by side in the soup lines. Fascism will be here before you know it. Darwinism doesn't teach that tho, does it ? The US concentration camps have already been built. What ? You think they're for criminals ? We would never have come this far without our forefathers beliefs. PS Darwin is only a THEORY.. Kind of like ILLEGAL in Illegal aliens.. People hear and think what they want. It's only a word if it is not proven or enforced.

Tim

God Believer, I'm not arguing for or against the existence of God or the value of your religious beliefs. Nor did I say I didn't accept you. What I'm saying is that I don't think you would be as bad as you think you'd be if you didn't believe in Intelligent Design.

But if you want to discuss the basis of morality, we can do that. First, do you think that if a person believes in God, but also believes in evolution, that they cannot be a moral person? If I understand correctly, you believe that unless a person believes in God, there is no reason for moral behavior. Well, let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask what, then, is the merit in God's laws? Are God's commandments inherently good? Is there a reason that we should not kill or steal or lie, other than that God commands obedience? If these laws have no intrinsic merit, then they are arbitrary. God might as well say that it's fine to kill, or that it's okay to steal, but only on Tuesday. Of course, this wouldn't make a lot of sense. So you have to admit that there is some inherent value to God's moral guidelines. There is a reason to behave morally, other than the fear of damnation.

Of course, you might say that these laws are still dependent on a belief in God. After all, if one doesn't believe in God, why believe in God's laws? Well, like I said, these laws have inherent value, which is why you can find them in virtually every civilization. Murder is generally unacceptable around the world, not because God says it's bad, but because society cannot function if people go around killing each other as they please. Even the earliest primitive societies had some restrictions on who you could kill. For the same reasons, stealing and lying are considered wrong. They just don't work for us. No one wants to live in a society where you can't trust anyone. That would be chaos.

P.S., Darwin is not a theory, evolution is the theory. And "illegal" is not a theory. I think you're trying to say that it's a label people made up, and you're right; illegal status is something imposed by one group on another, but that has nothing to do with I.D. or evolution.

Jari

@ Robbie
"Do you have any research or statistics to back up your strong statements?"
Check wikipedia on the demographics of atheists. You can clearly see that the more advanced(educated) a nation is, the less the percentage of believers in a god.

Tim

Interesting stuff Razor. These should be displayed in every classroom and courthouse, lest we forget the truly important things.

sunny1

I don't adhere to the division between creationists and evolutionists. I find them compatible...evolution is the tool of an ultimate creator whom is more than we could ever comphrend. If we are to connect with this creator it is not in rational thought. Rational thought has it's place but it's not the only kind of intelligence humans possess.
Blind faith is close to fanaticism in my opinion, faith is about questions. There are arguments for and against both.
Sometimes I get annoyed with the smuggness of both sides.

Did you ever notice how when scientists are “proving” something (ie evolution or how the universe was formed, or whatever) they have explainations galore backed with facts, figures, supporting evidence, etc… everything is meticulously explained until they can’t explain something then suddenly “it” was an accident or happened by chance…I laugh everytime they do that.
The movie The Ninth Configuration has a great answer … Col Vincent Kane: “In order for life to have appeared spontaneously on earth, there first had to be hundreds of millions of protein molecules of the ninth configuration. But given the size of the planet Earth, do you know how long it would have taken for just one of these protein molecules to appear entirely by chance? Roughly ten to the two hundred and forty-third power billions of years. And I find that far, far more fantastic than simply believing in God.”

Mind you to think of a creator who could create the conditions for this to occur is fantastic and incomprehensible to my narrow human mind. I think it is a good meditation.

anonymous

I quite enjoyed this documentary. There is one thing I found quite interesting, at the end of the film while Ben is interviewing Richard Dawkins he asks him, "Do you believe in any of the Hindu Gods?" Mr. Dawkins replies, "No, how could I?" I'm guessing Professor Dawkins has such a strong belief in modern science and evolution that he views it as entirely incompatible with ANY religion, all I can say is he must not be too familiar with Eastern religions.

Here are a few ways evolution and Hinduism ARE compatible.

1) Mr. Dawkins says life would have started with one self-replicating organism. A Hindu creation story claims that the first being on Earth was what roughly translates to "the golden egg" and that he through the blessing of Brahma (the creator) was able to divide and become two, three, four, etc.

2) There is another Vedic story of Vishnu stirring "the ocean of milk" from which all creatures came. This is pretty close to the concept of a primordial soup being stirred by lightning, although we saw it somehow doesn't quite work that way. (I'm not saying this happened literally, just that the combination of elements may have needed some otherworldly intervention to have ever happened)

3) Patanjali author of the Yoga Sutras references how a spiritual evolution through prayer and meditation paves a path for physical evolution. The Yoga Sutras were written thousands of years before Darwin and are considered a sacred text.

I don't take these myths literally, as it's not the style of the Hindu to do that. I do however believe religion and science should be the best of friends, not these sworn enemies. And there are mythologies that would be compatable with evolution, Buddhism for example has no creation story.

Just because Genesis has been disproven as literally true doesn't mean intelligent design has been, in fact nothing has given me more faith in God as creator, preserver, and destroyer than evolution has. As far as I'm concerned we're at the top of the evolutionary ladder for a reason, and that reason is the combined sum of all our virtues, compassion, teamwork, and love. And God is love.

Robbie

Jari and Achems Razor,

First of all, I don't believe (or don't know, actually) that the Earth is 6 thousand years old. I think that the people who really adhere to that age are usually fundamentalist Christians who see the Bible as a science book. The Bible actually says nothing on the age of the Earth, and starts out by saying "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth"; how long did that take? The Bible doesn't say. I also am quite skeptical of some things that ID investigators say, but I do agree with the idea that we can see some type of inherent design in the universe.

I know many Christians who have graduated from state of the art colleges with various scientific degrees and I actually know very few people who are die-hard 6000 year creationists. I think one thing that college teaches us is that we really know nothing... I mean Godel's Incompleteness Theorem basically says that if Mathematics is consistent, then we will never be able to know everything (it is not complete)... This means that no matter how much we discover (in terms of math, however physics and many disciplines are basically an application of math) and learn, we will never know everything, and we will never have a complete theory (as physicists call it, a Theory of Everything).... We know so little!

With respect to the atheist demographics, I looked them up on Wikipedia... I think the results go back to the same problem (I guess from my perspective it's a problem, from many perspectives it isn't) we were discussing; most universities (or scientists, theories, etc.) say that science has no place for God. I believe this leads to the tremendous amounts of atheists in scientific communities. However, I believe that upon teaching these theories (evolution, etc.), when a scientist affirms that they show that God isn't necessary or doesn't exist, the scientist is crossing a line and his perspective cannot be proven intellectually.

I have come to the conclusion (a slightly postmodern conclusion) that reason isn't enough. I believe that intellectual "proofs" (in the mathematical sense, i.e., basically an irrefutable argument that convinces everyone of the validity of a statement) don't exist in real life. I think good arguments exist, but proofs can only be found in the theoretical arena. I also believe that scientific objectivity is ideal yet impossible.

I'd like to hear your opinion on something that's been nagging at me since I saw the documentary. In Richard Dawkin's interview, he says that if there were an intelligent designer, then it would have to be some sort of alien life, and that this life would have also had to come about by Darwinian methods. I find this statement to be very unscientific; first of all aliens have yet to be observed (that is arguable, though), second of all, why would he restrict the intelligent designer to an alien species? This seems like a great leap in the dark. On top of all this, he affirms that this species would have had to come about by Darwinian means! I think that statement is on par with the flying spaghetti monster!

What do you think?

Achems Razor

Robbie:

Nobody seems to know any answers. If infinity never stops, how can they?
I suppose the end of infinity would be the start of creation.

In answer to your question about Richard Dawkins. When he suggested life started by Alien means, I imagine he was referring to "Panspermia"

Look up "How Did The Universe Begin", here on TDF, on my thread. October 20th 2009 at 22:42 I included a website on Panspermia.

Regards.

Solomon S. Buyco

Most of the scientist who don't follow religious doctrine are mostly self serving individuals... but I agree that everyone is entitled of their own opinions on all matters as long as it won't put any established congregations imbalanced on their stance of their own existence and beliefs. The world was made in six days? Why not? It is a scientific approach for any awakened individual about the creation in the eyes and guidance of God who uses our Image under the watchful eyes of the Serpent(singular cell - evolution).

Creation and evolution had been tackled already as what the written established in the Bible have endorsed, either be in parable or direct information. The present time situation is what matters in everything as far as the bible is concern.

The authority of the law is not just about the written laws but of the laws that governed us all... The problem with Intelligence Design is the authority of the language, English... which destabilized their intellect as of who they are on the knowledge that they possess.

Darwin's theory have touched the common picture of religious people about the "tree of life"... It is not about the lineage of the religious leaders or lineage of Kingdoms but a symbolic tree that we all came from one singular cell, and in the Bible's term... it is the Serpent. With their religious blunder, they are making fun of Darwin's Theory and discredit the person's personal observations. The tree of life doesn't refer to who beget who but what came from what on where... This is the hidden language that could not suffice.

What does science have done to you in terms of being who you are today? Well, I say, almost everything... but you'll have to work for it on your own... to be who you are on them... not of being who you really are on yourself... and those mind or minds is in dire sensitive on its very core of existence for survival.

So, what can I say? Jesus said; "Do unto others what you want others do unto you." and I comply with it on the best capability I could muster.

What is really in the table is ethics, morality and leadership... So, I ask this, why light disturbed the tranquility of darkness when everything in it is as it would be would still be as it would be even in darkness. I'm pertaining my question to all to the existence of 'original design'. Original design is not on you should because you could but you should because you should.

Evolution that we really wanted to know is not about the evolution of the species that we talked about openly, but what we really want to know is the evolution of the mind.

So, in the name of Jesus... I wish you all peace.

A Devout Atheist

When I started watching this, I thought it was a mockumentary, like "Trailer Park Boys" or "This Is Spinal Tap"

I have to give Stein credit for taking his own 'argument seriously....I just couldn't.

Oh, and folks: evolution isn't about the origin of life. It's about the progression of life. Abiogenesis is one theory for the initial 'spark' and is a different issue entirely.

Christians are offended by the premise that we're descendants of the apes, yet they're okay with being made from dust ?

Thanks to scientific analysis of the world around us, we know that 'dust' is composed mainly of dead cells....so before there were dead cells did the book mean to say dirt ?
Because that's different than dust or sand (yup, even in archaic Hebrew)
But of course, god knows that - he must, right ?
Oh, but maybe it's not meant to be literally translated as 'dust' ?
But "dirt" also appears in that book, so obviously the difference was known.
Is there an ancient Hebrew phrase for "primordial ooze" ?
I thought not.

At least evolution doesn't use arbitrary dogma to fill logic holes that are big enough to drive a truck through.

Robbie

Achems Razor, I've read about Panspermia; I just think it's a shot in the dark to affirm that if intelligent design happened, then it MUST have been done by an alien species, and this species MUST have come about by Darwinian means. I don't think Richard Dawkins has much evidence to confirm that; maybe on this planet Darwinian evolution occurred, but on a nearby planet some completely different process occurred!

A Devout Atheist,

Why couldn't you take the film seriously? What are some of your arguments.

Evolution deals with the progression of life, but I believe there is way too much speculation on the origins and early development of life in order to create a "solid" theory... Any credible scientist will tell you that we just don't know... Theories are theories... I had a great astronomy teacher who told me that the Big Bang Theory is a great theory in terms of explaining evidence, but it could very well happen that in 20 years a new theory better explains the evidence.. Who knows?

Your "dust" argument has to do with the translation of the Old Testament, I don't think it's a big deal, and you should maybe look at the Hebrew if you're going to form an argument with that. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with (note that I'm not speaking sarcastically, I really want to have some serious give and take)

"At least evolution doesn’t use arbitrary dogma to fill logic holes that are big enough to drive a truck through."

Please present arguments so we can chat about it, not just demeaning statements that basically say how stupid your opponent is. Let's be scientific about this.

Mok

INTELLIGENT DESIGN was DESIGNED to make creationist seem INTELLIGENT. it is still the same story...

and this over used statement: "evolution is just theory" ...yes it is, please look up what theory means, never mind, i will save you the trouble:

Theory:
n. pl. the·o·ries

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice.

ok, got it? now the creation story is that, just a STORY. and intelligent design is the creation story with a fancy cover.

as for the questions of science explaining the beginning of the universe and what was before. it does not have to nor claims to. there is speculation about it. but, as we advance and observe more we develop more understanding and will eventually, if we survive long enough, find the answers to those questions.

have you ever noticed the more primitive the culture, the more superstitions they have?

Tom

Wow! I can't believe I watched over ten minutes of this film... This isn't even a good documentary for Intelligent design supporters. Ben Stein please do us all a favour and don't make another movie :)

Solomon S. Buyco

As far as Intelligent Design's information about the source of life, is a design that is in a 'spiral tailed mover that had a perfect "mechanical" performance' and the 'needled sucker'. They have something in a common, size and shape, but differ on its functions. One moves around with its own functioning design while the other sucks and injects with its lacking "mechanical" design on other to move around. I don't know or cared to know what name they have given to them. but as it is, it would be the "enmity" in the Bible.

As for me here, in simple English... They are the "Stir" and the "Convert" :o)

Robbie

I don't want to offend, but usually when I question the Theory of Evolution in forums and pages like this one, I am usually answered with a lot of talk and very little science. On this page, there are various people who have responded with objective, insightful responses; these are the real scientists who seek the truth (I'm referring to both sides of the argument, not only to non-evolutionists). However, there are many who are still responding with rude, demeaning posts. I think that ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT, SCIENTIFICALLY, MOST PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT!

Let's be honest!

I also noticed that many (for example Mok, A Devout Atheist, etc.) are trashing ID without using any concrete argument, but a general "how can you be so stupid to believe that" type of argument. As I said before, I don't necessarily agree with all that ID is about, but if you're going to speak negatively about it, get some arguments! Study it! Study it with an open mind, not with prejudice that will influence your objectivity.

I believe firmly that in order to make a correct and convincing argument, you have to know your opponent's point of view just as well or even better than he does.

Robbie

Many people use the argument that if someone affirms that God created the world, then they must prove it; atheists don't affirm that, and so they have nothing to prove, the ones who have a job to do are believers. This logic is also applied to Evolution/ID controversy.

The flaw in this argument is the following: First, proofs don't exist in real life. Second, if ID (or even belief in God) is such a wrong, unscientific idea, then it should easily be "disproven" using scientific methods, or even using just good arguments.

Playing off my previous post, I must say that I have yet to hear a convincing, objective, and foolproof argument against ID.

Try and convince me that Evolution is the correct theory! I want to look at the evidence, and I want the truth!

Solomon S. Buyco

No one had ever establish the very core source of the living things.

So, in the Bible, 'Serpent' was used for evolution and 'Adam and Eve' for creation. Conservative is avoided to be used for those who patronizes Bible ideology but instead they used Fundamentalists... for simple reason of avoiding conflict in the constitution and by-Laws. "The separation of the Church and the State is inviolable."

Anyway, I have encountered a video, it was made in late sixties, I think... It is in black and white. The title of the video is "Original Design". It tackled not just the physical existence of the uniformity, as well as the diversity of all creations. It also touched the being of the creation. It gives a notion that we are who we are, indeed, individually. No denials. I just happened to see them but the messages got stocked in my mind.

Tim

Sounds interesting, Solomon. I only wish I could understand more of what you're saying. I mean that sincerely, not mockingly.

Solomon S. Buyco

You'll get acquainted with them if it interests you. Laws of Uniformity and Laws of Diversity... as well as the Law of Superiority. This is all in creation or evolution as you may.

Morther

I love this documentary. Ben asks, 'How do you get from mud to a living cell?' The Kool-Aid pusher/hypnotist replies: Piggybacking crystals.

Now we've got all these zombies marching in lockstep proclaiming, 'There is no God!'

Great, just what this world needs, zombies.

Tim

I've noticed an increase in Kool-Aid references in the past few months. What's with that? Is it impossible to have a logical discussion anymore, or do we just have to stoop to calling each other names?

Robbie

I agree with Tim.

Tim

This documentary tries to make a good point, but it would have been better if it didn't twist the truth so much. There are plenty of arguments for ID that don't involve misquoting Darwin or trying to blame the theory of evolution for the Holocaust. And some of those people Stein interviews were lying to save face. If he was really interested in the truth, he wouldn't have taken everything they said at face value. He is more interesting in proving his claims that the scientific/evolutionist community is trying to silence dissent, and that evolutionary theory is incompatible with religion. This is why you don't see any religious people supporting evolution in this film. It was a deliberate choice to create a false dichotomy, because if they acknowledged that theism and evolution are not mutually exclusive, then they wouldn't be able to paint evolution as such a big threat.

Morther

some random thoughts...
The chances are 1 in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. Why consider such an expectation?
Because it's possible? Would your theory be more correct or fabricated then?
Such a take on things forces or imposes a horrid number of sequential coincidences as a prerequisite.
Why bring this much baggage to the table?
A good scientist is wisest as an observer.
I think it's a case of what is so obvious being that which hides itself best.
Things don't come out of nothing because if they did that would imply a change takes shape from where no change was. Spontaneous creation, something God is reeaaly good at.

If one then wanted to bring forth the idea that randomness is a justifiable state of nothingness. Then we add baggage and lots of it. A trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion little bags of energy.
Well, why go there?

Another argument is 'That's the way it's always been.'
Can you get any more spiritual than that? No accountability, infinite resources.

All of which point to a mechanism that explains how things got this way.

The spirituals have the platform from which to initiate a change.

We are that which looks a God but can not see Him in that He is everything in and out.

Jo

This movie and subject fascinates me. What really interests me is how Richard Dawkins suggests that highly intelligent aliens having evolved from a 'darwinist type evolutionary process' could account for the initial spawning of life on earth.

This was in response to the question "where did the orginal self replicating cell come from?" so if earth processes alone could not create this cell and we needed aliens to spawn it then several questions seem obvious to me:

Q 1: Where did the aliens come from? Did another alien race spawn the first cells required for the alien race that spawned us to evolve from? (again im referring to the comments Richard Dawkins made regarding the original cell, not my personal views) If so then we can just easily explain evolution through a long line of never ending alien races each requiring the one before it to be spawned and to be evolved from... hmmm.. and never arriving at a first cause...like "the original biggest alien from whom all other alien races were spawned and evolved from" does this seem scientific?

Q 2: If we were spawned from aliens and evolved from there (as Dawkins suggests) then does that make us aliens also? If so then why cant we continue to spawn alien collonies on distant planets in the galaxy? (What happened to the evolutionally process, are we then de-evolving?)

Q 3: I can't help asking, if Dawkins is so readily able to believe in aliens then why not just believe in God? What if the being he calls an Alien IS actually God Himself? Why would this not be likely if you're prepared to believe in aliens.. It interests me how people can say things like that and not really realise what they are saying - it cant be God it has to be aliens - but is still a belief in the supernatural..and is basically an admission to the fact that an intelligent being equal to the intelligence and power of a God is required to 'originally spawn life'.

Q 4: In fact, if you can believe in the existance of aliens, why believe in evolution at all? Such a belief is no longer required. Then you might as well then believe in God.

And why is it that this is just not obvious to everyone, it just seems so clear to me logically that if you are happy to bring aliens into the picture you might just as well admit that God does exist.

You know, what I actually believe is that the search for aliens is actually a search for God, and the belief in aliens to spawn life on earth like Richard Dawkins said is just a replacement of God, and that actually an honest study of science will lead you to God...as Ben stated.

I respect Richard and take my hat off to him, at least he is being intellectually honest with Ben and not avoiding his questions.. at least he can admit that an intelligence higher than our own was required to originate life on earth, and that without this explaination - he cannot explain the original self replicating cell upon which the entire theory of evolution hinges.

Jo

Thank you Charles B. for your post on October 11th, 2009. You state some very practical scientific points that should be so obvious but few people ever talk about. I quote you here:

"Natural selection is not your friend in terms of the evolutionary theory, but evolution’s worst enemy, because nothing works until everything works perfectly."

"Natural selection prefers perfection, not change; Even the slightest change would bring weakness to a perfect creature, and nature has proven to be merciless...to the weak."

"In order for the natual selection portion of your argument to be correct, then the universe had to tollerate deformed and mutated and helpless creatures for millions of years while they developed back into separate and perfect spieces."

Thank you for stating above so clearly what so many textbooks try to mask, that the pressure of natural selection itself makes the survival of species in the 'in between' evotutionary stages completely impossible.

Another seemingly unrelated question that keeps bothering me is this: If evolution is correct and it is all about the survival of the fittest then whats wrong with war? It is, after all, just social evolution and the survival of the fittest, or in our case 'most powerful'.

Should we worry about this if this is the 'natural selection' required to shape our world into a more highly evolved form? So hitler had it right then..exterminate the weak.. That this can be seen as the logical outworking of the evolutionary process is the link i think Ben was making..

Furthermore, if evolution is correct, and we are all just animals.. and if it is arrogant to asume that we are different to animals.. then why is it that if I wish to eat chicken, I can just go to KFC... but if I wish to eat a person say, Id go to jail - for life?

If evolution is true and we are all just animals, then why is it that we all know intrinsically that this is wrong?

And if evoltion is actual, then is it really fair to penalise someone for acting on 'natural selection' since it is just about the 'survival of the fittest'? Why would we even need policemen or international diplomats?

It just occurs to me that while evolution may be able to somehow look good on paper and sound witty in speaches, the acutal outworking of it in society would be devastating.. literally like hell on earth.. like Hitler or Pol Pot.. we would do away with resthomes, empty our hospitals by cutting health bills, do away with lasting and committed family relationships, forget charities, ignore third world countries, treat our neighbours dirty, murder, imbezzel and still be being completely intellectually honest with our perfectly intake theory of evolution.. no conscience or accountability required.. infact.. upon reflection.. isnt this so like many of the third world countries we so proudly differentiate ourselves from?

What makes our country different? Isnt it the core judeo christian values that our culture has been so deeply motivated by.. like that people have intrinsic worth and are valueable..you know that it still matters to us that a murderer is brought to justice and that children are treated fairly and that this strong public feeling does not exist in third world countries where people literally ARE treated like animals, i should know, ive been living in one.

So it could be that it is impossible - not only for a species to survive the pressures of 'natural selection' in the logical outworking of evolution (as the Charles i quoted stated) but for a culture to outwork and survive such a devastating ideology.

Im glad that for the most part western society lives in a bland dichotomy: believing in theory what cant in good conscience (where ever that came from) be outworked in unadulterate practice.

BrianB

I've not read all of the commentary here, but here are my two cents....

I have a strong background in science and mathematics. I am not a member of an organized or unorganized religion.

After having studied cell biology, etc., my scientific/mathematically-geared mind realizes that even the simplest cell is infinitely too complex to be attributed to coming about through random chance. I find it ludicrous that any scientist with an open mind could see otherwise.

Solomon S. Buyco

@BrianB, The mysteries deepens among the living things that comes out from non-living things, where in living things, two life forms exists which are in harmony and working with each other, plants and animals,... especially with carbon dioxide and oxygen exchange. One could not live without the other.

God bless...

http://antiquity.tv KingVitaman

People who don't believe in evolution shouldn't be allowed to use any new types of antibiotics when they get ill. The entire pharmaceutical industry is based upon researching how various viruses EVOLVE over time. Forbidding the i***** who believe in creationism access to pharmaceuticals which have been developed because of evolutionary scientists would also be a good way to thin the heard. The stupid creationists would simply all die without the benefits of modern day science. :) Would make the world a better place. Well, it would make the world a smarter place.

Also. Notice that Ben Stein no longer speaks on this issue, and no longer claims to be a documentary film maker. By the way research Benn Steins career. He was Nixon's speech writer. And people still take what he says seriously? He's a professional opportunistic propagandist.

Solomon S. Buyco

Nobody believes that anyone would not believe evolution, they were just looking into it of how the pharmaceuticals interfere on their own 'creation' out of the 'Creation'.

Evolutionary living things splits into two faction, one that clings unto non-living things and the other lives on on its own but they were interacting unto each other that they could not live without the other... They don't poison each other to annihilate themselves.

Now, in the foregoing conversation, where do you think is the Devil?

Robbie

KingVitaman, there exist two types of evolution: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution basically has to do with small changes over time and among one type of species. No one argues that microevolution doesn't take place, if in doubt just look at the diversity among different species (in particular, look at the human species); actually the example you gave about viruses changing over time is a great example of microevolution. All the controversy surrounding the evolutionary theory is focused on macroevolution; it has not been observed explicitly that one species can slowly change into another.

I'd like to correct you on some terminology, also. The term "creationist" usually refers to a person who believes that the Earth was created in 6 literal days, and that the universe is thousands of years old. Intelligent design proponents, however, basically say that the universe has certain elements of design that would not have been able to come about via darwinian means. It's actually very interesting and ID scientists are actually very smart people with PhDs and such.

I encourage you to look into and research creationism, intelligent design and evolution; I'd love to hear your arguments.

WaDe

I think Science and ID should be seperate.It IS a Relgious belief. The evoltuion theory might have holes, but at least it has evidence.

I think that Scienciest are treated unfairly. Here in England not too long ago, some scientiests got the boot becasue there research indicated that cannabis may have a cancer fighting chemical. its thats not sick not sure what is.

I dont want to pick sides in all of this, its just my opinion isthat science and religon should be studyed as a seperate thing.

Solomon S. Buyco

In America, it is clearly stated in their Constitution: "The separation of the Church and the State shall be inviolable"... Meaning that the Government and the Religion is separated of their own affairs... but to you, your suggesting that science and religion should be studied as separate thing. Science and religion could not be separated, simply because of their definitions alone. the thing about religion in question is about the leaderships not about its stance or beliefs.

Alex

Wow, Its very amazing reading all the negative remarks about the film, never once I hear negative attitude towards to alternative beliefs in evolution. Most who saw and wrote negative opinions are very mindless in there approach. I would like to differ to another documentary called the Icons of Evolution regarding to a high school biology teacher loosing his job in western Washington state, because he questioned the fundemntal parts of evolutionary theory. In this film, which was made by PBS, outline the division between respected scientists who stick to the party line of evolution and those who question the theogy of Darwin's theory of the origins of life.

Now like the Stein film, the PBS film expressed that anyone who questioned Darwin's theories are automatically called a religious crazies that need to be thrown out of school, have their jobs taken away, and their credability stripped from the scientific community.. Now that's what happen to the teacher in western Washington who himself enjoyed science. The general scientific community quickly came in and judged the teacher of being creationist, and that he needed to be shut up with extreme measures without looking in and hearing why the teacher question the theory itself.

Now thoses who wrote the negative comments about the film haven't used true intellectual reason why you oppose the findings of the Stein's film. You have ignored that Stein talked with micro biologist who was thrown out of the Smithsonian... So how a micro biologist become a micro biologist, well they had to go to the same school of thought, being taught of Darwinsim in order to recieve the PH.D in that field. All science have roots in the Darwinism, and if you question that gospel than you are shunned like if you were shunned out of a Almish community. Science is suppose to question everything. Question with Boldness Thomas Jefferson said to regards of religion, but he was also a brillant amatuer scientist who question and theroised on his own. That's before Darwin. Darwim himself had troubles with the scientific community to regards of his own theroies as well.

But if he were alive, he would want someone question is many theories. But since scientists found other ancient fossils, of other species, they look into Darwin prism to discribe the origins of the fossils without truly questioning. Everytime I turn around, they do that, because Darwinism is their docrine that replaced the conventional doctrine, that doctrine is Reason. Now going back to the Icons of Evolution, Darwin had a artist who helped illistrate the evolutionary process that became well known as the Haeckel's drawings.

Now in the movie from PBS, a scientist proved that Haeckel had faked the drawings to enhance Darwin's shaky theory. Matter of Fact, Haeckel was a racist person. Darwin tried to prove that the Finches on the island proved that evolution is happening with the sizes of their beaks, but the problem with that, the beaks go back to normal, so it doesn't show a evolutionary mutations, but more to adapting to the chaning enviroments. Darwin than explained that he hoped that future fossils will explain his theory of the Cambrian Explosion theory, and some fossils were found that were claimed it does. However, one such fossil in the PBS film didn't explain the or show the Cambrian Explosion. There are others that the PBS film explained about the problems with Darwin's theory, but no one has challenge with boldness if Darwin is right. Why do every mainstream Scientist accept Darwin as gospel, because there are no other explanations of the origins of life. I would like to ask this question to any scientist this: What's the purpose of life? But I couldn't help to ask one more question... Why are we here, and why do we live? Sorry I ended up asking three questions. Its funny that the Hawkings and other scientists explain that life came from out there, from a small speck... So where the speck came from? How the speck came to be? How did the Alien Life came to be?

Where they came from? How did their life was created? Science itself is now becoming a new religion, the only way to be accepted is to take down who question the Darwin Doctrine. The scientist community is causing a great skism among others, among the science, and the mainstream is stomping on those who question their Darwinistic vision. That lady in Stein's film with the map with all those pins show that they were sucessful in stomping out a uprising of the Darwinistic vision. In her mind its a WAR! against those evil creationist who poison our minds.. REALLY??!!! Its a war against science vs science, but branding the enemy as the evil hated mongro creationists. Its a typical M.O of the people on the left, that is to stomp out any dessent, and religion... Calling those who appose Darwinsim and their way of thinking as nothing more than feebleminded that need to be surpressed. WOW!! that is truly the way of the future with we go down that path.. But I will be the last to say SCREW DARWINSIN!!! PRAISE intelligent Design as a new evolutionary and revolutionary theory.

Hardy

@Alex: Sorry, but if you're trying to question an established theory in science, come up with one that a. makes sense (okay, granted) and b. advances science instead of taking a step back (aaand - Intelligent Design FAIL).

The only thing that Intelligent Design adds to Darwin's theory is the perquisite of a creator. It adds NOTHING to the actual worth of the theory Darwin set up. Creator or no creator, it doesn't make a difference spoken in scientific terms.

The only reason for Intelligent Designs popularity among the religious community is it giving the churches of the world a purpose in our modern society. And so the arrogant religions of the world maintain they're power over the people.

"Religion, opiate of the masses."

P.S.: Believe in what you want, but stop shoving money up your next door priest's a**...

Alex

sorry about my lack of errors in my typing, I was in a rush typing out my points and thoughts before I loose it with other thoughts that I wanted to write. One major error in the paragraph is that I met to say Dawkings, not Hawkings.

Robbie

Hardy, just as I've challenged others, I'd love to hear some of your arguments against intelligent design. If it's such a poor line of investigation in terms of science, then it should be easy to disprove scientifically. You've taken the approach that many others have taken to discredit anything that's not Darwinism: mockery. Mocking your opponent is not only unscientific, but it also makes your opponent feeling bad; no scientific progress is made. A debate - no matter how stupid the other side's argument is - should serve to convince the other side that you are right. I challenge you to research intelligent design from an intelligent design scientist's perspective (by reading an ID book with an open mind, for example), and then argue against it. The best way to win in a debate is to know your opponent's argument better than he does.

I'd thoroughly enjoy debating with you, and I'd love for you to convince me that Darwinism is the correct theory!

Alex

So, what's the harm that maybe a "God might create life, what so harm in that. If there are errors in evolution, we should have the right to question the theory that doesn't make sense such as Darwin. Matter of fact Hardy, you ingored the facts what's wrong with Darwin regarding to Haeckel's drawings. I suggest to you Hardy, watch the Icons of Evolution and let me know if the teacher was teaching faith in the class room. God those are morons. I hope to God that he helps you, because right now, the theory is God who smarter than man, because no man can explain why are we here.

So Hardy, what's the purpose of life? Why was life created? Are we some accident? We breath, eat, shit, and die, is that our reason for living? Come on Hardy, use your brain that God gave you!! You surely had the free will to think for yourself, not fall in line of the evolutionary, darwinin gospel, because it seems to explain better than God.. Try to disprove that intelligent design is meaningless? Are we some speck from outer space, and if so, where did that speck came from? Where did the Aliens planted life here? Are there any evidience to prove that Aliens have done that?

If the higher form beingings came here to plant life, where they came from, and how their life started? Did it started the same way? Hardy, is it wrong to question scientists who adhere to the Darwinian doctrines? Why is it so bad to be creationist? How come intelligent designers are feared by the status quo? Because you think those well educated PH.D's who have long worked in the fields of mirco-macro-biology are morons? Why do you assume that I am so religious nut because I believe that maybe Darwin is wrong? Because I take up the intellegent design theory?

What makes you think that I shove money up my next door neighbor's priest's ass? Why do you assume I had a priest next door to me? So you believe our modern society has no room for religion? Do you know what happen to those who believed in some form of religion in the Soviet Union? Do you know what lines they say to banish religion? Are you an elistist because you assume your smarter than those who question Darwinism? Hardy, be a man, and answer the questions for me.

Yavanna

Alex are you Venomfangx?

Robbie watch the series on youtube called "why people laugh at creationists" Just because people like you and Alex believe in what you believe does not give you the eternal right to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over and over. They are repeatedly answered if only you can get into your thick skulls the answers. Your questions are boring boorish and retarded. You are like children that keep asking why the sky is blue. We all have google. Use that instead of searching your favourite creationist websites.

Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet!

Yavanna

Most of us are "there yet" you few throw backs just need to realise that.

Solomon S. Buyco

Well, well... On Intelligent Designs foundation is a man called Edgar Cayce. People behind him are believers and had been following his readings and had been cured. So, on stepping one step forward and taking two backward is an inappropriate descriptions of the I.D. As Religion have been established as an entity to go forth and explore on what is unto the unknown and beyond, will make religion be out of the scene on the human development agenda. That would make humanity a bunch of morons on the loose in our community.

As for I.D. s dismissal in the scientific community is based on the law of the constitution... "The separation of the Church and State is inviolable." But my oh my, would that establish an Hippocratic society as it is as before? I suggest that someone should add "protocol" into them. I know, "Give unto Caesar unto Caesar and God unto God" but we all know that money is money and it is always said that one should just use the money and not the other way around. Hypocrisy are unto this Science and Religion debate. So, why not as well we get into it? Add the "protocol" to the source of those Hypocrite world, which will run like this: "The separation of the Church and the State protocol is inviolable." Peace and God bless to all....

Alex

wow, Hardy, I guess you are ingoramous!!! I guess I am too smart for ya to answer my questions!! It shows how your side is weak, can't handle questions at all, only resorting to childish name calling..

Alex

same as you Yavanna, because you haven't read my argument very carefully!!!

Hardy

Okay, lets see if I can make myself clear, here are a few reasons why Intelligent Designt ISN'T science:

1. ID is only logical within itself. It deduces that complexity must result from an intelligent being, yet offers no hard proof.

2. It fails the test of Occam's Razor. The intelligent being is not needed to explain the observations.

3. As mentioned in 1), you cannot give empirical proof that the theory is correct, because you cannot observe this designer. It is like me saying: "The plant in my garden is made of 5.5*10^4823 Atoms." There is no way of determining if this is true or not.

4. The most important thing: Intelligent Design is not progressive. It gives one single answer, that of a designer, which doesn't need to be clarified further. The argument is, within itself, the prerequisite for the theory.

5. It allows no changes. ID is final and allows no progression. It requires no proof and doesn't provide any. Interesting observation: Here in Germany, we refer to Evolution as "Evolutionstheorie" and Intelligent Design as "Intelligentes Design". So every time we refer to Darwin, we acknowledge it as a theory.

This is why ID is not scientific, but theological.

Evolution is a theory. Give me something progressive, logical, provable and alltogether scientific and I'll be the happiest man on earth. But ID is, and this is a fact, not in the least bit scientific.

Btw. - don't start with the "irreducable complexity" stuff. It's been disproven in thousands of scientific papers and researches.

Last thing to explain my 1st post here. I do not care if you believe in a creator or not - if you believe a creator made us evolve to what we are now, if you think he just made us appear from thin air.
But all ID is doing is giving the established churches on this world a reason to keep on taking money from the people. It threatens the churches that the creator is no longer needed to explain the world around us, so they, as they have always done, approach the problem with unprovable theories.

diligoscientia

@Richard K

You would be hard pressed to support the claim that evolution is a 'fact' ; It is still a theory by definition. No one in the scientific community has been able to prove it through the scientific method. The fossil records, morphology, statics and probability (to name a few) cannot reconcile their understandings to the concept.

You can also mark Darwin down as a heretic to your cause, he was a believer.

Alex I NEVER read your posts. I made the mistake of doing so once; life is too short. I just have to cut to the punch line

"PRAISE intelligent Design as a new evolutionary and revolutionary theory."

And that's all your posts consist of - a very long dreary joke with the inevitable punchline. ID is neither new or revolutionary. ID is not a science. It is a theory yes but not in the same regard as science uses the word. I might have a theory that you are a 8 year old girl with pigtails - does that make it right?

ID is creationism re-branded nothing more nothing less.

Dilig - "The fossil records, morphology, statics and probability (to name a few) cannot reconcile their understandings to the concept."

Totally wrong and "reconciled to the concept" repeatedly and on a daily basis.

Yavanna

Alex

I broke my rule and read your post.

Watch a 16 part debunk of this doc on YouTube called
“Expelled Debunk – Flunked”

The maker of this video takes your so called scientists apart one by one. It is always worth examining your sources don’t you think?

If you have neither the time or the attention span to watch the 16 part debunk of expelled I can offer you a video on youtube on one of my subscription:

“A Scientist’s Critique of Ben Stein’s Expelled” by DonExodus2

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

That is not the Alex you think of @Yavanna. I guess it is a different person.

Yavanna

Oh in which case I apologise New Alex :)

I'll read your posts with more credibility in future.

(Was the old Alex kicked Vlatko?)

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

Yes the old Alex was banned long time ago.

Yavanna

Ok well "new" Alex I have now properly read your posts. I totally get your point about Darwin being repeatedly examined and yes he would have wanted that. But your message apart from that is the same as old Alex. God did it. God gave us these brains and so on. It's a very old and tired argument and you offer nothing new to the discussion.

However all the evidence we have has debunked creationism / ID numerous times. It simply does not deserve any further place for examination. If there are two sides to an argument and one of them is utterly stupid then it can be disregarded.
Just because Creationist refuse to listen to answers does not give them the eternal right to keep asking the same bloody questions.

"Why is it so bad to be creationist?"

Because it is an intellectual childishness that most people get out of at 6th grade level. It's "priesthood" is deceptive and corrupt. It is theological BS. It is a poison that retards progress. It offers a total answer to a huge question that should forever be examined with real purpose. It is in itself a huge strawman that has nothing to offer apart from baby strawmen arguments. Intelligent design is empty both philosophically and scientifically.

"How come intelligent designers are feared by the status quo?"

They don't fear ID. They laugh at it. Most normal people do. This concept that science is at war with creationism or ID is a fantasy invented by it's apologists to grant themselves some feeling of self importance. We are truly laughing at you. We only ever answer this "issue" as it is the modern equivalent of throwing rotten tomatoes at the village idiot. You are pure entertainment value. Clowns. We pity you but no more than we would a lame duck.

However I would add that some creationists terrify me! Not just because of ignorance and utter stupidity and pseudo-intellectual claims. I have two words for you: Sarah Palin. You can work out the rest for yourself.

Hardy

Yavanna, you couldn't have said it better.

Robbie

Hardy and Yavanna, thanks for your posts.

For one thing, I never said I was an ID proponent, and I never said I am a creationist. I haven't said what I am. I just like to question everything; is that so wrong?

It amazes me how mad/hateful/rude you get when all we're doing is trying to discuss some science and debate about which theory is better (although you clearly don't consider ID as a theory, just a kid story). I would appreciate it if we could discuss using facts and objective opinions, not name-calling and such. There are probably many who are reading these posts that aren't sure what to believe, and they should be convinced by science and not by intimidation! Let's try to convince the others of what we think using well developed arguments.

Hardy, I appreciate the arguments you wrote, and I'd like to comment on a few of them.

1. ID is only logical within itself. It deduces that complexity must result from an intelligent being, yet offers no hard proof.

Answer: I believe that proof does not exist; there are only good arguments. I'm a mathematician (working on my PhD), and I know probably better than anyone here what a proof is. In the real world these proofs do not exist. I think scientific proofs in the real world are actually partially subjective arguments and interpretations that try to convince someone that a certain theory is plausible. For example, the Big Bang Theory (which I think is a very plausible theory) arose from the fact that Hubble observed that galaxies are moving away from each other, and therefore must have originally been in one place. Recently, however, I saw in a news article that some scientists think that Earth (along with the Solar System, and maybe our galaxy, I'm not so sure) is actually in a giant bubble of some sort, and this bubble distorts our view of the rest of the universe. This implies, according to the article that the entire Big Bang Theory may have to be looked at again, and it may lead to a completely new theory. The point I'm trying to make is that proofs can't exist, because theories are basically just interpretations of facts we observe. These interpretations are actually influenced many times (probably every time) by what we want to find, and I doubt anyone investigates with a completely objective mind. This being said, I believe that some ID articles show some good arguments that the Evolutionary Theory may not be enough to explain everything. This clearly has philosophical and religious implications. ID scientists are clearly not stupid, and have PhDs in their fields of science; I think they're trying to find the truth just as much as anyone, and any argument made against what they say must be objective and scientific, and not full of name-calling.

2. It fails the test of Occam’s Razor. The intelligent being is not needed to explain the observations.

First of all, Occam's Razor is not considered to be "an irrefutable principle of logic", and is not considered to be a scientific result.

That being said, ID basically says that Evolution isn't enough to explain how life got here it in the form it is today. I don't agree with all ID scientists say, but I think they bring up some good points and ask great questions. ID isn't simply not liking an atheistic world and so in order to be at peace with themselves they add a God to the picture so that their worldview makes sense.

I believe that there are things that the Evolutionary Theory has yet to explain in a satisfactory way.

3. As mentioned in 1), you cannot give empirical proof that the theory is correct, because you cannot observe this designer. It is like me saying: “The plant in my garden is made of 5.5*10^4823 Atoms.” There is no way of determining if this is true or not.

The designer is irrelevant in ID, according to its proponents. I'd like to resort to a type of argument used by ID scientists (or "scientists"): if you find a written message lying in the street, you know it was written by someone. You don't know who that person is, but you definitely know that the message was written and it didn't come about by natural causes.

ID affirms that it does have good evidence that some things couldn't have come about by natural selection, and it says that they must have been designed. Clearly if natural selection isn't able to explain everything, then it isn't necessary to immediately believe in a Designer, but this is where ID goes.

4. The most important thing: Intelligent Design is not progressive. It gives one single answer, that of a designer, which doesn’t need to be clarified further. The argument is, within itself, the prerequisite for the theory.

ID doesn't say how the Earth came about or how we got here, it just says that Evolution can't explain everything. There are creationists (young Earth believer) who are ID "scientists" and there are old Earth believers who are ID scientists, for example.

5. It allows no changes. ID is final and allows no progression. It requires no proof and doesn’t provide any. Interesting observation: Here in Germany, we refer to Evolution as “Evolutionstheorie” and Intelligent Design as “Intelligentes Design”. So every time we refer to Darwin, we acknowledge it as a theory.

I think that's great that Evolution is referred to as a theory and not as a fact, because so many people get mad at me when I say it's a theory that could change (I'm not saying it's not plausible or anything, but a theory is just that- a theory). For example I had an astronomy teacher who told me that even though the Big Bang Theory is a great theory that explains many things, new evidence could emerge and in 20 more years there could be a completely new theory in its place. We really don't know much!!

I think we all need to question science continually; I love investigating and learning as much as I can from Evolutionists, Creationists, ID proponents, etc. Every theory has good and bad things.

Hardy, I suggest you read Darwin's Black Box with an open mind, because then you'll be able to know better where ID proponents are coming from, and you'll have much better debates with them once you know exactly what they're talking about.

You can only win in a debate if you know your opponent's point of view better than they do.

For a great book, I suggest you read The Reason for God by Timothy Keller. It is an excellent book that really challenges both sides on the Evolution/Creation debate.

Yavanna,

Instead of resorting to name-calling, why don't you share some good arguments on why you think Creationism is incorrect? I'd love to hear them.

"“How come intelligent designers are feared by the status quo?”

They don’t fear ID. They laugh at it. Most normal people do. This concept that science is at war with creationism or ID is a fantasy invented by it’s apologists to grant themselves some feeling of self importance. We are truly laughing at you. We only ever answer this “issue” as it is the modern equivalent of throwing rotten tomatoes at the village idiot. You are pure entertainment value. Clowns. We pity you but no more than we would a lame duck."

Have you ever researched ID's claims from an ID scientist's perspective, or have you only read criticism of ID from Evolutionists? It would be awesome if you could research ID a bit and then share some of your thoughts.

"Robbie watch the series on youtube called “why people laugh at creationists” Just because people like you and Alex believe in what you believe does not give you the eternal right to ask the same stupid questions over and over and over and over. They are repeatedly answered if only you can get into your thick skulls the answers. Your questions are boring boorish and retarded. You are like children that keep asking why the sky is blue. We all have google. Use that instead of searching your favourite creationist websites."

I have seen that series! lol You assumed incorrectly that I am a creationist! I am a Christian, but am also a serious scientist and I seek the truth. I don't assume evolution is wrong before studying it, and I don't assume ID or creationism is correct before studying it.

My questions are retarded? I think I ask fairly interesting and relevant questions that have not been answered to my satisfaction yet.

Convince me with good arguments (and not name-calling) that Evolution is a sound theory! I'd love to be swayed!

Robbie

When I said proof doesn't exist, I didn't make myself clear. I'm not just saying proof of ID, but proof in general, I don't think proofs exist in science.

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

I can only say this one way, not trying to be offensive.

But how can "only" our Solar system be in a bubble? if there is such, than our Galaxy and all Galaxies are also in a bubble.

I also cannot help but ask if you are a mathematician, working on a PHD.
Do they not teach Sciences etc: as curriculum? Instead of looking stuff up in newspapers, That bubble thing was around for a loooong time!

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Also, I do not know what you mean, when you say proofs do not exist in science.

Robbie

Achems Razor,

I'm not exactly sure what was contained in the "bubble", and I'm not saying I believe it's true, I'm just saying that theories change. Probably several galaxies were thought to be contained in the bubble, I forget. I can't find the news article either; if I find it I'll post it on here.

Yes I took several science courses in my undergraduate studies, but in the PhD program there are only math courses. The bubble thing was supposedly discovered last year or something; I don't even know if it is still being investigated or what... If you look in google there are some things that appear about a bubble around the solar system; I don't know if it's the same bubble that I saw in the news or what.

Robbie

I understand a proof to be an indisputable argument that shows that something is true; it basically must convince everyone and leave no room for doubt. I think this is the definition that most people have in mind; for example: Evolution has been proven, or ID has been disproved.

I think that even though the dictionary defines proof as "Any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something", most people think it's something that can't be disputed. Indisputable proofs don't exist, only good arguments.

Robbie

*When I said the dictionary, I meant Webster's Dictionary.

*My definition of proof is so rigid and is an indisputable thing because of my mathematical background where either a proof is right or it isn't.

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Einstein's Theory of relativity has been constantly proven many times!
It is elementary science, that is taught in high school.

For a PHD in math you have to take, or a least know a lot of curriculum course's.

I do not believe you are any type of scientist, neither a mathematician!

Yavanna

Robbie I have little new to say. I sense that you are treating this as some sort of project and I for one find your attitude very patronising. As previously stated ID does not require any further scientific rebuttal.

Christian / Creationist. What is the difference? To be a Christian is to believe in the creationist God. Which comes fully installed with a talking snake and so on.

I`m glad you enjoyed the series I mentioned and I`m glad that you question everything; but clearly not enough otherwise you wouldn't be here pushing your supposed "questions." I suggest you watch it again as you clearly wasn't as convinced as I was.

Yes I have researched ID from the other perspective. It is equally stupid whatever way you look at it. It wasn't AWESOME.

"but am also a serious scientist and I seek the truth."

What is the truth about the talking snake and dinosaurs may I ask? Instead of responding to me by quoting whole sections of my previous comments without then giving any reference to them and instead of claiming that I resort to name calling (which I have yet to do) why don't you provide the answers.

If not please return to the bubble hence you came please.

Good luck with your studies young man. Hopefully by the end you will be able to add together some single digit numbers.

Solomon S. Buyco

"Science are people of integrity. Stupid people should always be stupid people and should just be feed with fishes and does not need to learn how to fish." Quote/unquote :o)

The irony of this information is in the core of the society and not in science... but on the lighter side, it is funny.

As for the 'talking snake'...Let us take it to the next level... It is 'a dragon', mind you... as far as the European are concern. But as it is, I find "the Serpent" as a 'gene' or a 'singular cell', but religious people likes to call them "Serpent" as it was as it is called.

Yavanna

You say tomato I say tomato.... lets call the whole thing off.

Yavanna

On a serious note - Its still Adam and Eve right? Not Hans and Hilga?

Robbie

Achems Razor, I wrote a response, but it is awaiting moderation, and so it will be posted shortly I assume.

Yavanna,

Thank you again for you post.

"I sense that you are treating this as some sort of project and I for one find your attitude very patronising"

When have I been patronizing? I have been very polite and tried to offend no side. I've been trying simply to ask questions so that we can think and discuss a bit.

"As previously stated ID does not require any further scientific rebuttal."

But you haven't rebutted it with scientific arguments yet... Only insults...

"Christian / Creationist. What is the difference? To be a Christian is to believe in the creationist God. Which comes fully installed with a talking snake and so on."

The definition of Christian is one who follows Christ. I take (as most of the scientific community takes it) a Creationist to be a young-earth believer, and a literal Genesis believer, not just a believer in God/Christ. What does the talking snake of Genesis have to do with our discussion? We're talking about Evolution/ID; basically the origins of the universe and how life got here.

"I`m glad you enjoyed the series I mentioned and I`m glad that you question everything; but clearly not enough otherwise you wouldn’t be here pushing your supposed “questions.”"

Lol this conversation sounds a bit like a conversation Galileo would have had with the Catholic church!

"I suggest you watch it again as you clearly wasn’t as convinced as I was."

Talk about patronizing!

"Yes I have researched ID from the other perspective. It is equally stupid whatever way you look at it. It wasn’t AWESOME."

What books have you read? Who have you talked to? What did you study in college? (The latter question is important, because if you studied biology, then you could offer far more insight on the subject than if you studied business, for example). No scientist would argue that a theory is incorrect because it's "stupid", they would give observations, facts, and well thought out arguments, which I have asked you to give.

"What is the truth about the talking snake and dinosaurs may I ask?"

There aren't talking dinosaurs in the Bible, just so you know ;)

"instead of claiming that I resort to name calling (which I have yet to do)"

Well maybe not exactly name-calling, but you get the point. For example:

"is an intellectual childishness that most people get out of at 6th grade level"

"It is theological BS"

"It is a poison that retards progress. "

"baby strawmen arguments"

"They don’t fear ID. They laugh at it. Most normal people do."

"We are truly laughing at you"

"We only ever answer this “issue” as it is the modern equivalent of throwing rotten tomatoes at the village idiot. You are pure entertainment value. Clowns. We pity you but no more than we would a lame duck."

"why don’t you provide the answers."

I've just been asking questions, and I don't know the answers to all my questions... I ask them so that we can think and have a bit of a discussion going.

I stole this question from Michael Behe. I'm not implying that complex systems evolved with the help of a creator; I'm just not satisfied by the answers I've heard from scientists like Dawkins.

How does evolution explain love, reason, etc., and the apparent gap that exists between the human species and other animals?

I have yet to be satisfied with the answers I have heard.

On the other hand, ID poses some questions too:

Isn't it a bit like filling in the holes with God when saying that God guided the process of evolution in order to form complex systems?

"If not please return to the bubble hence you came please."

That's uncalled for; I was just explaining about a news article I saw, and wasn't talking about if it's true or not.

"Good luck with your studies young man. Hopefully by the end you will be able to add together some single digit numbers."

And again, you're resorting to making fun of me instead of trying to be scientific!

Robbie

Achems Razor,

Einstein’s Theory has been supported by observation many times, not proven in the way I’m saying. Einstein’s Theory is actually a great example to make my point, there is some type of contradiction between Quantum Mechanics and Einstein’s Theory, but they have both been observed (Quantum Mechanics on a small scale and Relativity on a large scale). There are probably things that will have to be changed in each of these theories in the future so that these contradictions disappear.

Robbie

Yavanna,

Thank you again for you post.

“I sense that you are treating this as some sort of project and I for one find your attitude very patronising”

When have I been patronizing? I have been very polite and tried to offend no side. I’ve been trying simply to ask questions so that we can think and discuss a bit.

“As previously stated ID does not require any further scientific rebuttal.”

But you haven’t rebutted it with scientific arguments yet… Only insults…

“Christian / Creationist. What is the difference? To be a Christian is to believe in the creationist God. Which comes fully installed with a talking snake and so on.”

The definition of Christian is one who follows Christ. I take (as most of the scientific community takes it) a Creationist to be a young-earth believer, and a literal Genesis believer, not just a believer in God/Christ. What does the talking snake of Genesis have to do with our discussion? We’re talking about Evolution/ID; basically the origins of the universe and how life got here.

“I`m glad you enjoyed the series I mentioned and I`m glad that you question everything; but clearly not enough otherwise you wouldn’t be here pushing your supposed “questions.””

Lol this conversation sounds a bit like a conversation Galileo would have had with the Catholic church!

“I suggest you watch it again as you clearly wasn’t as convinced as I was.”

Talk about patronizing!

Robbie

“Yes I have researched ID from the other perspective. It is equally stupid whatever way you look at it. It wasn’t AWESOME.”

What books have you read? Who have you talked to? What did you study in college? (The latter question is important, because if you studied biology, then you could offer far more insight on the subject than if you studied business, for example). No scientist would argue that a theory is incorrect because it’s “stupid”, they would give observations, facts, and well thought out arguments, which I have asked you to give.

“What is the truth about the talking snake and dinosaurs may I ask?”

There aren’t talking dinosaurs in the Bible, just so you know ;)

“instead of claiming that I resort to name calling (which I have yet to do)”

Well maybe not exactly name-calling, but you get the point. For example:

“is an intellectual childishness that most people get out of at 6th grade level”

“It is theological BS”

“It is a poison that retards progress. ”

“baby strawmen arguments”

“They don’t fear ID. They laugh at it. Most normal people do.”

“We are truly laughing at you”

“We only ever answer this “issue” as it is the modern equivalent of throwing rotten tomatoes at the village idiot. You are pure entertainment value. Clowns. We pity you but no more than we would a lame duck.”

Robbie

“why don’t you provide the answers.”

I’ve just been asking questions, and I don’t know the answers to all my questions… I ask them so that we can think and have a bit of a discussion going.

I stole this question from Michael Behe. I’m not implying that complex systems evolved with the help of a creator; I’m just not satisfied by the answers I’ve heard from scientists like Dawkins.

How does evolution explain love, reason, etc., and the apparent gap that exists between the human species and other animals?

I have yet to be satisfied with the answers I have heard.

On the other hand, ID poses some questions too:

Isn’t it a bit like filling in the holes with God when saying that God guided the process of evolution in order to form complex systems?

“If not please return to the bubble hence you came please.”

That’s uncalled for; I was just explaining about a news article I saw, and wasn’t talking about if it’s true or not.

“Good luck with your studies young man. Hopefully by the end you will be able to add together some single digit numbers.”

And again, you’re resorting to making fun of me instead of trying to be scientific!

Robbie

Some of my answers are taking a long time to load, so I'll put them up again

Robbie

“I do not believe you are any type of scientist, neither a mathematician!”

Lol, if you don’t want to believe I’m working on a PhD in math, I can’t do much about that. Have you ever looked at a math program website, or a PhD math program website? For example, look at Harvard’s math PhD program website, and see what the requirements are (I put the website when I posted this earlier, but I think the comment takes a long time to load when I insert a website, so just look it up on google), there are only math courses. There are some math programs that require more courses in physics and such, but it basically depends on the university!

Yavanna

"I do not believe you are any type of scientist, neither a mathematician!"

Thanks Achems - I was too polite to say what I suspected.

Solomon S. Buyco

I reviewed Ben Stein's Film and I found out that the
' "freedom" will attest to that ' as Ronald Reagan have put it...

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

You have to have a masters degree first, and than a minimum of four one-term graduate courses, beyond the masters degree.

The most important is a thesis embodying the results of the original research.

So do we than take it you have it least a masters degree?
You know nothing about space or astronomy, and I suspect very little about anything else.

To be what you say you are, you are not very knowledgeable about science.

Me-think's you are still in high school, if not.

What college or university do you attend?

Or are you picking up degree's by mail order?

Solomon S. Buyco

@Savanna,

"On a serious note - Its still Adam and Eve right? Not Hans and Hilga?"

No... it is not about Hans and Hilga either but about Tommy Lee Jones and Pamela Anderson... lol

Robbie

I can't believe a simple debate has resorted to this! You have yet to answer or even attempt at answering one of my questions!

"You have to have a masters degree first, and than a minimum of four one-term graduate courses, beyond the masters degree."

No you don't, at least not in math. Many universities only have a Master's degree in math for if you didn't have a good undergraduate background in math. I, like many others went straight from undergraduate studies to a PhD program. Also, there are certain requirements for courses to enter a PhD program, but none of the requirements requires you to have done graduate courses before. If you want me to be specific, most universities require two semesters of Real Analysis, two semesters of Abstract Algebra, one semester of Topology, and maybe a semester of Complex Variable in order to enter a PhD program in math. These requirements may differ, but these are the most common ones I've seen.

"You know nothing about space or astronomy, and I suspect very little about anything else."

Lol, I haven't said much about space or astronomy either. I only mentioned the Big Bang, mentioned an article I saw, and mentioned Quantum Mechanics and Relativity. I have not said before that I am knowledgeable about astronomy.

Why do you suspect I know very little about anything else? I haven't said what I know. All I've done in all these posts is ask a few questions! I think I really hit a nerve or something!

"To be what you say you are, you are not very knowledgeable about science."

I haven't said hardly anything about science, and certainly haven't said any contradictions! I've only asked questions!

"What college or university do you attend?
Or are you picking up degree’s by mail order?"

Again with the insults! I am American, but am currently in the PhD math program at the Universidad Católica de Chile, in Santiago, Chile. And am working with a teacher (an author of one of Springer's Graduate Studies in Mathematics books) on the subject of Differential Geometry (differential geometry is actually the language Einstein used to write his theory of Relativity).

Robbie

Just out of curiosity, and not trying to patronize, but what degree(s) do you two have?

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Alright! I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I do not know how they run their programs in Chile.

I have forgotten that a person does not learn much in school to be well rounded. And I found it incongruous that a man of science knew nothing of space and astronomy.

You did say and I quote "but am also a serious scientist and I seek the truth" unquote.

By saying things like that you may have to back them up, you put yourself into a corner, that is what happened here.

I was not insulting, just saying it the way it is. But I do apologize if it sounded as such.

You ask what degree's do I have? do you think I need degree's, pieces of paper from my peers to be knowledgeable??

I wish you the best in your studies.

Robbie

"I have forgotten that a person does not learn much in school to be well rounded. And I found it incongruous that a man of science knew nothing of space and astronomy.
You did say and I quote “but am also a serious scientist and I seek the truth” unquote.
By saying things like that you may have to back them up, you put yourself into a corner, that is what happened here."

I do know quite a bit about space and astronomy, actually, and have taken various courses in physics and astronomy.

"You ask what degree’s do I have? do you think I need degree’s, pieces of paper from my peers to be knowledgeable?"

Of course a degree isn't necessary, nor does it necessarily show how much you know. However, it apparently is important to you two, who made me out to be a liar for saying that I'm getting my PhD in math.

I don't think I've said anything wrong in this forum; I have neither attacked nor supported Evolution nor ID. I just asked questions that I think should be discussed!

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

You have asked no questions of me about Evolution or Id.
I am not interested in having a discourse with you about that.

Also please quit repeating what I have said. I know what I said.

If you wish to argue, argue with someone else!

Alex

Yeah I saw expelled debuked on youtube, and its very funny, because most of it missed the valied points that Ben Stein tried to convey in his documentary, which is typical for darwinians. It seems to me Hardy, that you have become a throw back yourself, embracing a new doctrine of Darwinism as gospel truth, even though its been proven wrong from time to time. Let me ask you some questions... Why aren't there no sudden changes between fish, amphibians, reptiles today? Why aren't there transitional species today, like a fish trying to grow legs and feet to walk on the beach, or aligators trying to grow feathers so it can fly high get the prey up in the trees? Why we don't we see other species of primates getting their backs straighten to walk on their feet.

Why we don't see these primates who have been around for as long as humans not evolving to the sub-human species that are now in the natural museums in D.C. I know it takes thousands of years or billions, but if we came from the common acestory, than how come the rest of the primates of today don't show signs of transition in their biological structures, such as mulicular structures? You can teach an ape to use a tool to eat ants, but doesn't mean they will become human... I remember one documentary where someone was teaching an african giant ape to use a bamboo stick to get the ants off the ground. So, I guess Man can teach animals tricks, but not enhance evolution. But that's besides the point. So back to the questions. How come we don't see transitional changes in the fossil records? How come scientists are discovering fossils that pre-dates the Cambrain Explosion?

Now I have ask that question before, but you had somehow overlook the previous questions to you that I had posted. Why is that? Is it because you think you are the most smartest person around because you adhere to the debunked facts of evolution? You asked is there any other theory, umm... Yeah, thats Intelligent Design... But I guess you are too much of a throwback to understand that. What I am getting at from you Hardy and the others who believe in Evolution is the mentality that snobbish elitist who is threaten because some commoner like myself and others question the status quo, and that is the Evolution doctrine. What's so threating that someone had disproven the facts with Darwinian theories and evidence>

What got you so nasty to be hate monger against religion, is because some other scientists in the biological fields had shaken your belief in Darwin, "The New Messiah?" Well whatever it is, I do know that your powers that be in the scientist community will sick the SS on those who spoke out of line, so I guess your new found faith in Darwin will be protected. But I just don't understand why you oppose alternative viewpoint in the question of life, at first Darwin was alternative when it began. So, what's so threating about that? I forgot, you think you are smarter than us, and that us like myself need to be called as throwbacks, like some caveman.. Wow!! That really shows intelligence on your part. I hope you answer my questions and the others that I had posted.. Remember, the fundemential law in science is to question, its also shows intellect to question the status quo, and that is the Evolutionary doctrine.

Oh, yeah, Intelligent Design goes into the fact that the cells have some kind of order to how each cell works, such as having some form of language or code, which we all know is DNA. Let me ask you a question.. Can you repeat the same cause and effect that created life in the Darwinian model? Few have tried, but they had failed to do so. So can you create a computer by chance, or do you have to have a plan to create anything? Is all life but just some cosmic accident? The theory of Intelligent Designs states that there is a plan to all life, and if its to God, so be it! But Richard Dawkins had admitted that intellgent design is possible in the theory of evolution in the Ben Stein Film.. Trust me, I heard him say over and over, so I can be correct of what Dawkins had stated. Come on Hardy, stop being a throwback in 19th century darwinian science and start using your brain.

Robbie

It is impossible to carry on a scientific conversation or ask questions that question Darwinisim. This is exactly like when Galileo questioned the position of the Earth in the universe and was persecuted by the Catholic Church!!

Yavanna

The Laurel and Hardy ID tag team have been at it again! (Sorry not you "Hardy" but the most appropriate comparison I can think of regarding Robbie and Alex.

Alex I cannot believe anyone can be so obtuse. Please stop asking questions straight from "answersingenesis" The answers can very easily be found to those questions but let me deal with three.

"Why aren’t there transitional species today, like a fish trying to grow legs and feet to walk on the beach, or aligators trying to grow feathers"

You have no understanding about how evolution works. It takes millions of years for a species to adapt and natural selection would prohibit the success of a walking fish. It would walk onto the beach and be eaten very quickly. If it returned to the sea it's magically grown legs would prohibit it's survivability as they would slow down any escape from predators. Creatures don't "try to grow legs" etc. They adapt over a long time to their environment. They don't consciously decide one day to stop swimming, grow legs and go for a stroll along a beach. You are possibly thinking of mermaids though to be fair to you, they have the same chance of being in existence as your loving vengeful god. You are confusing magic with science. There is however scientific evidence that creatures have evolved from sea marine animals to land and visa versa. Whales are a very interesting example. Very easy to google and research for yourself.

Alligators with feathers? Are you a serious. You really are bringing up the Crocoduck argument?

"How come we don’t see transitional changes in the fossil records?"

ALL fossils are transitional fossils!!!

"Is all life but just some cosmic accident?"

Probably yes. Maybe that's too simple an answer for you because as you later crow: "Richard Dawkins had admitted that intellgent design is possible in the theory of evolution!" No he didn't. He has when questioned about this always stated that there is a microscopic chance of there being an intelligent designer because he cannot DEFINITELY say otherwise. Any scientist would say the same. If you expand what RD says instead of clipping a sound bite and taking it out of context, in most circumstances he would go on to say there is just as much chance of fairies and leprechauns existing or that his famous flying spaghetti monster created the universe.

I`d like to clear one thing up here. This constant usage of "Darwinism" and calling it a doctrine. Suggesting he is the "new Messiah" and such. It's all very puerile projecting religious notions upon reality. In any case you seem to think that calling someone a Darwinist is some sort of insult. No more than is it to be called an atheist. Maybe in Jesusland but not in the real world.

Darwin's theory was merely the seed which has grown to be what is known as modern biology. It is however 150 years on just as solid as Newton's theory of gravity. Whilst both are today considered quite primitive in relation to modern science their basic principles remain unambiguous. They were stepping stones in the evolution of what we consider science today.

Now take your hat off scratch your head and burst into tears(You have to stay in character Stan.)

..................

Robbie. I really don't want to make of you. You ask the same questions that every other ID proponent does. Yet seem to be intelligent enough to find the answers yourself. You are an "American" but you chose to study in Chile. You are a Christian but apparently go to a Catholic University. So I assume that you are not only fluent in Spanish but "super fluent" as you must not only be able to converse in Spanish but do so on an extremely technical level. None of it adds up.

In any case, if I`m wrong about my doubts about your qualifications then I apologise for any offence caused. If I`m right however please do the decent thing. Remember that you are a Christian and that lying is a sin for which apparently you will go to hell (your belief system not mine.)

My mistrust of you also stems from the fact that ID / creation apologists are extremely deceptive and it is a well known tactic for them to falsely claim educative authority. Kurt Hovind is a well known example. Currently in prison for fraud and he bought his PhD by mail order. Those in the ID Foundation tend to have degrees in law, therefore are advanced practitioners of bending the truth. Basically paid professional liars. Others are known to be getting PhDs purely so that they can lend that authority to advocate ID. The duplicity never ends.

It's only fair seeing as you asked; to respond also that my educational background is quite simple. I left school at 16 to help support the family financially. I went to night classes and got some A levels. I later went into the police service and completed a degree in criminology and criminal justice. I am now retired some ten years with a crushed spine and have spent most of the time reading and researching topics of interest.

In any case - you could be a bricklayer for all I care.

"I’ve just been asking questions, and I don’t know the answers to all my questions… I ask them so that we can think and have a bit of a discussion going."

"I’m just not satisfied by the answers I’ve heard from scientists like Dawkins."

Poppycock matey. If you aren't satisfied by the answers given by the some of the most brilliant scientists alive today how did you expect better from a forum like this? If you are as educated and scientifically minded as you claim you would understand their answers to your questions. The problem is not with the answers but YOUR understanding of them. You would also be able to research the questions very thoroughly and having huge access to current university resources this would be a breeze. You could probably walk to another section of your Uni and open discussion in person with a Professor of Biology. Nothing about you adds up.

If I make fun of creationist that is my prerogative and you should expect such on any forum you go to outside those promoting ID / Creationism.

I do believe you are a creationist. All true Christians are. Whatever bible you choose to read will tell you that God created the universe. If you believe that then you are a creationist. The definition does not have to include belief in young Earth though by and by it usually does. Depending on which bibles you source, apparently the world is between 6 and 12 thousand years old.

Now whack Stan round the back of the head and say "That's another fine mess you got me into!"

Hardy

Alex, this is getting too tiring to keep up with.

1. Break up your damn paragraphs. Its a big block of words without clear thoughts.

2. Stop insulting and I'll consider reading your posts.

3. Quick question - are you part of a religious community? This is simply a

Robbie, thanks for the post!

Quick thoughts on your post, I don't have much time a.t.m.:

Your arguments definitely got me thinking. I still stick with evolution for now, yet, as I have been doing before, I will continue to question. There are definitely some problems with the theory that are in need of answers. But this questioning is the beauty of science.

And again, why I dismiss ID for now: I have the feeling the intellectual form of ID is definitely worth thinking about.

The problem is that most defendants of ID are using it for their purposes. People making money through religion don't want to lose their jobs, fundamentalists don't want to question their beliefs.

Religion has been used and is being used much too often to create imaginary differences between people. Christians start to hate muslims, muslims start to hate christians. It's some strange way to define yourself in an ever more globalized world.

Every time I see a person defending ID, I see a religious fundamentalist trying to defend his belief in going to a big white fluffy place after he dies. That makes me laugh a bit every time, on the one side they criticize the darwinian doctrine, on the other side they read the bible every day.

The way I would like to see ID discussed is simply in an objective and rational way. Not in the "Look! ID! That's my reason for continuing to pray to Allah/Jahwe/God!". It confirms the different religions in their certainty about having life figured out.

This was a bit unorganized, so I will continue to think about this discussion in the future and add my final thoughts soon.

Yavanna

"This is exactly like when Galileo questioned the position of the Earth in the universe and was persecuted by the Catholic Church!!"

You're right but for the opposite reasons. The general consensus of humanity is that we don't want to devolve to bronze age superstitious "science."

Yavanna

Hardy (The real one)

The only way ID can be discussed in a rational and objective way is to take the route that a Deity created the universe with the big bang and henceforth everything has been pre-ordained.

The basis for this is the cosmological argument. There is an advocate of this called Chris on the discussion of the doc "How did the universe begin."

The trouble is in actuality ID is not divorced from an Abrahamic god but rather a means to lend credibility to religious ideas. In any case you might enjoy the other discussion so I suggest you check it out. You too Robbie.

Hardy

Will do, Yavanna.

And yes, thats the way I was talking about the rational and objective way to discuss ID. But don't forget, the Big Bang is also only a theory! ;-)

Hesus

@ Alex

A good example of evolution is a virus or bacteria becoming resistant to medicine through mutation. Now I realize that plentiful evidence on a microscopic level might seem irrelevant to you, so please watch an experiment done on a marine salamander. You can find it in the documentary Homo futurus, part 4/6 and about 3 minutes in. It makes a very good point in how an animal can make a transition from water to land by influencing only one gene. So it might be that the transitional process can occur much quicker than most think.

Solomon S. Buyco

@Robbie,

"It is impossible to carry on a scientific conversation or ask questions that question Darwinisim. This is exactly like when Galileo questioned the position of the Earth in the universe and was persecuted by the Catholic Church!!"

This is the result of people doing their job for the people in translating the Bible;
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Insertion of Genesis 1:2 as if God made the earth first before the Universe, as it is clearly written that the Universe comes first before the Universe in Genesis !:!...

Genesis !:2 should have been after the "Big Bang" or "The light" was made... So, here, I would say that 'graft and corruption' have reigned or they were just ignorant of what they are translating.

Anyway, confessions and to repent is not a Commandments...

So, there we are... the earth was the center of the Universe and the whole system revolves in Earth.

Solomon S. Buyco

My error;

Insertion of Genesis 1:2 as if God made the earth first before the Universe, as it is clearly written that the Universe comes first before the (Universe=should be Earth) in Genesis !:!…

Solomon S. Buyco

But then again... Jesus have said, "Don not judge, so that you will not be judged."

Peace to all...

Hardy

@Solomon: I like you christians... Always clinging to your little book, quoting things by heart.

But seriously, what did all of that have to do with the discussion and/or Robbie's quote?

Solomon S. Buyco

@ Hardy... The creation of heaven and earth... and Galileo.

"This is exactly like when Galileo questioned the position of the Earth in the universe and was persecuted by the Catholic Church!!”

The position of the earth in the universe, where earth is the center of the universe, and on the Genesis 1:2. Earth was made first before the light...

Well, if you are a materialist, there is nothing more I can say as you will surely don't want to read of what was with of written... Truth could not be a fact but it conveys a message.

Because if it would be proper, I would arrange them to be in this order: Verse 1, 3, 4, 5 then 2...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.

5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In this way, God made the heavens first with the light(Big Bang) then the earth was formed from thereon out of consequences. And further on, as earth was filled with all living things just like the man who was made out of the dust... and God breath unto it and took the Image.

All this and more was made in six days... just like I made this UNIVERSE in less than a second. :o)

Josh M

What a great film, really pointing out some of the flaws in evolution, sad thing is, evolutionists still deny the facts when they are hanging right in front of their faces.

Robbie

Hardy, you said

"The way I would like to see ID discussed is simply in an objective and rational way. "

Sounds good to me!

Yavanna,

You assumed that because I am a Christian, then I try to make things work in science so that I can still believe in God. Sometimes it happens the other way: because of science, one believes in God. I also know plenty of evolutionists who are Christians, and vice versa. I only question the Theory of Evolution because I personally think there are things that haven't been explained well, not just because I don't like the concept of the theory.

I don't want to keep arguing with you, Yavanna. I didn't want to sound patronizing when I said that I am in a PhD program, I only said it to show that I know something about proofs; I'm sorry for coming off that way.

I want to discuss science, in a rational, logical and humble way.

Yavanna

Robbie please don't take anything I say personally. The safety net of the web sometimes allows us more latitude to be ruder than necessary and I`m guilty as charged. Sometimes my irritation at creationists gets the best of me.

But a serious question. As I mentioned above you have access to resources far beyond what we can offer and like I say if you cannot accept the explanations from those at the top of their scientific fields surely it would be better to say engage debate on a biology or physics forum. I don't say this to try to get rid of you. I think you are very polite, well written and friendly.

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Okay, let us discuss science.

What is Time?

Astronomy, Space.

Quantum Theory.

Fractals. Could they apply to physical reality?

Parallel Universes. 11th dimension.

Also I was looking at, Riemannian geometry-differential geometry.
General Corvariance-use of tensors.

Achems Razor

@ Yavanna:

I wish them luck, see my post on,"Kingdom of David" the saga of the Israelites.

Yavanna

Which particular post. I`m fascinated by Rebs massive (truly massive!) contributions to the discussions and have skimmed through to your comments once but see nothing relevant to THIS talk here. drop me a mail - It is listed as open on forums if you wish. (forums > members...)

Achems Razor

I will check out the forums.

I am also very interested in all "Reb" has to say.

I would like to get his take on CA. with Chris?? Can only hope,(EH)

Yavanna

OK I found your post in reply to CA there. I prefer my more layman arguments against CA. Good idea lets set Reb on Chris!
We might have to starve him for a few days first though!

Yavanna

MOhaha Chris just got even nastier on the "Kingdom of David" discussion. Seems I must have really hit the troll's nerve. He was incapable of dealing with my basic debunking of CA without offence and so tracks me through other discussions :)

Solomon S. Buyco

@Achems,

The problem here is that nobody seems to recognize that Ben Stein is a 'hard core' Christian... just like Prophet Paul. Hard core Christians are people of King David's.

As have posted earlier with the words of Pres R. Reagan,

" 'Freedom' will attest to that. "

Robbie

Yavanna,

I just happened upon this site because I haden't seen the documentary, and I decided to post. I like to do give and take in forums like this; I like to share my perspective, which I think is different from many, and I also like to learn from other people with different perspectives and points of view.

Give me a day or so to post on the cosmological argument. What do you think of it? Or do you want me to give my opinion first?

Yavanna

Well I put a lot of time and thought into it. From what I discovered it is flawed and basically very little different from what Plato proposed originally. I posted my thoughts on the other doc. Chris and I ended up having a bit of a tiff.

His last comment (whilst trying to pedal the CA on another God thread) was: "Band of hecklers. What a waste of carbon. I offer you food, yet you insist on slop. I leave you to your conspiracy theories, UFOs, science fiction and wishful thinking. Take what comfort as you can as the day draws to an end. And someday, you will remember our conversations, as you lie on your soiled beds, bitter, alone, forgotten, and wishing you had paid better attention, as you breathe your last."

I shall miss him - his insults were breathtaking; like wiping my a$$ on silk :)

From what you have said about yourself so far I think however it may well fit your belief system. I believe you will find it interesting.

Hardy

I've been thinking about the CA for a few days and made up my mind, will probably share it here soon :-)

But for the time being I have a question: So what?

In essence, the CA cannot be proved or disproved (much like the different religions), but in the end - who cares? What difference would it make if the CA is accurate or if it is false? What would be the impact?

The only effect I can see is to give religions justification. Am I missing something? I've seriously been stuck on this for a day or two.

Yavanna

Well it can be used to justify the belief in a Abrahamic God I suppose. But I think you are missing a big point. All the CA does is (if found to be totally correct and indisputable) is "indicate" that there was a first cause. It does not explain the leap of faith to "God did it" Ie that God was the first cause. We may just as well say that a mutant cell that evolved to what we are today could be called God.

I spent a few weeks contemplating CA. It is only a philosophical hypothesis - an idea. It was interesting to think about but abused and upgraded by Chris for him to introduce it as a scientific logical formula. I urge you to read my arguments against it on the "universe" doc. An idea initiated by Plato should be taken seriously, however if it was an established truth we would be taught it in school as such.

As for it being disproved. I think it can be. I believe the logic to be flawed. But then again it depends on which version of CA you examine. With Chris's version:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. Nothing finite and contingent can cause itself.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

This is a highly contingent version with the finite argument; (and that things that are complicated must have a designer) and that there can be no possibility of a chance factor.

Using the same logic you could say:

(1) Whatever is sentient must have a cause
(2) The Christian God would be sentient
(3) Therefore the Christian God would have a cause

When confronted with this Chris devolved the argument that God was outside the rules. That God was "uncaused" and eternal / infinite.

IE "God did it" IE end of discussion. Discussion devolves to insults against intelligence.....

My take on all this? Explaining the first cause by saying "God did it" is to introduce a factor that is far more complicated that the universe itself. It retards what we have discovered through science and I have more respect for people that believe from faith alone rather than pretend a scientific understanding.

Robbie

I'm still thinking about the CA.

Some thoughts I have for the time being are these:

For one, it is hard to mix philosophy and science. What makes a good argument in philosophy could be a poor or irrelevant argument in science, and vice versa. The CA is clearly philosophical, and I'm not quite sure if it could be used in a scientific setting or not; that's one of the things I'm still thinking about.

Yavanna is right in saying that even if it proved that a first cause does/did exist, we can't jump to the conclusion that this first cause is/was God. Philosophically, we could probably define it to be God, but we can't automatically assume that this cause has certain characteristics (Yahweh, Alla, etc..).

We could maybe assume that this first cause is a type of designer, being that the universe is governed by seemingly fixed laws.

The whole question about "who created God" is a touchy subject. I believe that the CA has been able to be applied to the universe because most scientists/philosophers agree that there was a beginning to the universe. On the other hand, God, or this first cause, isn't necessarily finite and could have always existed. Another interesting observation is that many physicists talk about the "beginning of time" at the Big Bang. Maybe "before" the Big Bang ("before" isn't exactly the appropriate word in this context, but is understood), time didn't exist, and thus the concept of a God without beginning makes sense.

These are clearly just theories, and things I have been thinking about these past couple of days.

Achems Razor

Creation ex nihilo,

The idea of a first cause sounds somewhat fishy in light of the modern theory of Quantum mechanics.

According to the most commonly accepted interpretation of Quantum mechanics, individual subatomic particles can behave in unpredictable ways and there are numerous random, uncaused events. (Morris 1997,19)

Robbie

And what does that have to do with a first cause? (I'm not saying that in a sarcastic way).

Erik

The theory of evolution does in no way explain or try to explain the origin of LIFE, merely, as Darwins book is called, the origin of the SPECIES. It does not explain how the first self-replicating(insert better definition of life if you will) organism came to be, merely how it evolved to more complex organisms. Darwin figured out a possible mechanism for the evolution of species, he found one which was more accurate/likelt than f.ex. Lamarcks theory.

Also some poster meant that it could not be science because it is not observable fact. If this is the definition of science, then science can go no furter back in time than recorded history(if that)..... How could we observe something that happened milions or billions of years ago? We can't, but we can observe processes now and try to deduce how things have been in the past, and how they will end up in the future.

To the argument of "it is statistically unlikely that life would appear without a divine maker, hence there must be a divine maker". It is statistically unlikely to win the lottery, but someone does... We won the lottery guys, we are here and conscious. This neither proves nor disproves there being a god, but the burden of proof is on the individual making a statement/theory. Scientists have built up alot of material supporting evolution, evidence for god on the other hand?...

Hardy

@Erik - very true arguments. But what is your personal conclusion? Are you an agnostic, theist or christian?

Erik

To Pink. You are absolutely correct! Now show me one scientist, or scientifically minded person that claims to know what was before the big bang? We are aware that we don't know, but since we have no way of knowing, we turn our minds to other more pressing matters that actually can be explained, and when explained maybe even be helpful.

Erik

Well I'm an atheist in the meaning that i'm not a theist. You could say i'm a monist in the sense that I don't think there is anything outside nature. There is more to nature than we know, but once we learn of it it will be part of nature. This might sound weird, but that brings me neately into the next paragraph.

I wouldn't deny there being a god, but I think there is no way of discussing it rationally, and as such should have no influence on thinking or public discourse whatsoever.

Hardy

Thank you. I was hoping for exactly that answer :-)

Solomon S. Buyco

God is about the laws of existence.

Government is about laws of men.

Science is about the arrogance of men for their comfort and prestige.

Religion is for individual that should relate to all.

Salvation is just a beginning... it still need, wants,comply and recognize.

Leadership is a responsibility...

So, what about Hell?... It is where we all came from. lol

Anyway, what is it about God? As far as I know, God only wants compliance and recognition upon all creations. God does not need your help or your life. It does not even care if we live or die! Everything was created out of nothing just like your father have manifested you out of longing for a home sweet home. And of course, so that their will be balance to all of creation in Creation.
We, the created have been looking up on something that we could not possibly process or grasp of the magnitude of the reality of the wholeness that the set up offered, that one could be and have been living with. The wall as it is, is usually tagged as with is the magnitude of existence... is always about the brain that have been rebelled against its own body to declare itself as superior... but to whom? Yes, it is about the body, just like what the fagots are doing. superior even unto themselves. Yes, that was crazy... but who would disagree with their practices?

Now, Intelligent Design... Does the Government needed them? Hell no! Laws of men are for the laws of men... and it should be emphasized that the written law is a law but as it is, the Government still recognize and comply that there is no one should be above the law! Now, that is something to think about... Are they referring to the unwritten law? If it is, then we will have the problem because of the original design in the first place, and the second is the "graft and corruption"!... So, what is the best next thing? Does anybody knows around here who happen to know a man named Jesus?

Just for the sake of argument; it has been said in this discussion that God might be eternal, in which case why is it so impossible to imagine that time, space and matter (the universe) are eternal. We don't really know where matter and energy goes when it enters a black hole. Maybe it explodes in a void in some other dimension causing a universe there?

Robbie said the universe is governed by seemingly fixed laws. Seemingly is the key word. It could be said that these laws have become fixed over time. Maybe they "evolved" to become what they are. As in a similar way Darwinism has evolved to become neo-darwinism then modern biology. (Not quite the same but hard to make the point.)

Eric thanks for introducing me to the term Monism; I hadn't come across that before

Solomon S. Buyco

Well, here is some points about them, "Space and time is not time and space."

Yavanna

It could equally be said wibble is not wibble.

I got to ask What's this Reagan shizzle you keep popping?

Hardy

@Solomon

1. You don't seriously think politics (and American politics especially) aren't governed by institutional religion, do you? I'm referring to the "law of man, law of existence" stuff.

2. a. If science is arrogant, please throw away your computer and never use a keyboard again. Otherwise, you are hypocritical.

2. b. Science doesn't claim to have a correct answer. Religion does. Who is arrogant again?

3. Seriously, get your spelling straight. I don't even understand if your reference to gay people is meant as an insult or not (which would clearly define you as an ***** if it were truly meant as one).

Solomon S. Buyco

What is it they used to say? "Watch and learn."

Yavanna

You and me , you and me , lots to learn , lots to do......

Achems Razor

Robbie:

You say, what has that to do with a first cause? I say everything.

Instead of philosophical discourses on CA I prefer to see what scientists have to say.

Putting a site on called, "Creation ex nihilo- Without God".

Will be following.

Solomon S. Buyco

@Hardy,
@ #1) Religion had some here and there in leadership and I know that it was indulged in some of their implementation but not necessarily on written laws.

@ #2) It is about arrogance, I did not say it is arrogant. But in particular, science in the system of their recognitions is the saying, "No money, no honey"... so, if you do not have money, you can not enjoy their fruit.

@ #3) Why deny the reality of homosexuals? The fagots in particular?... They don't recognize their own body, they have mental dysfunctions that they have denied the real function of their body or call of its own body but of their mind.
Here, you have an indication of your support for King David and Johnathan(Son of King Saul) which doesn't break any laws but, just some say, 'a love affair' between two male. So, I may say that you are a hard core Christian just like Ben Stein.

And Hardy, don't confuse me with reasoning and leadership.

Hardy

*Facepalm*. Nothing more than that...

Yavanna

I R confused....... am I the only one?

Sol I have yet to find a comment of yours that makes the remotest bit of sense!

Achems Razor

I never have any idea, what the hell Solomon is talking about,
I get a e-mail notification, and who else but Sol. is usually on there.

Ad Nauseam.

Achems Razor

It seems like that site I was trying to put on, is not here.

Anyone that is interested can Google it...Google-"Creation ex nihilo"
And than click on "Creation ex nihilo-Without God"

Solomon S. Buyco

Ok, ok... specify please, of what is it that you want some elaboration in my statement?... Or denials is already in place or in control for me to go on...

Triad

You guys got way too much time on your hands..!!

Hardy

@Solomon: It has come to an agreement that 99% of the people discussing here do not understand your comments. Try to make your points clear or we won't be able to reply to them...

@Triad: Eh, I just enjoy discussions. No matter if they are at the dinner table, while enjoying a beer with friends or here, on the Internet.

Solomon S. Buyco

It is very clear then... So I suggest that you make it 100%.

Robbie

@Achems Razor: I read the article, and various things spring to mind.

For one, the CA isn't proof of any kind, I just think it makes way more sense; instead of all matter emerging from a "vacuum", it's much more logical to me that it was created in some way (maybe the same way described on the website).

The webpage says that the total energy of the universe is zero, and therefore a big bang without a creator doesn't contradict modern physics. This raises a natural question: Why aren't there universes exploding out of "nowhere" (I'm being careful with the terms nowhere, vacuum, and nothing, for the same reasons the website is careful with them) all the time?

The website says: "Maybe the universe itself sprang into existence out of nothingness - a gigantic vacuum fluctuation which we know today as the big bang. Remarkably, the laws of modern physics allow for this possibility."

Yet the field of quantum mechanics also has results like: The probability that you're walking down the street and then suddenly appear on Mars is greater than zero. This is a possibility, but it isn't very logical (using common sense, I'm saying).

I'll post more later

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Yes, the saying, if you understand Quantum, than you do not understand it at all!

1#-Than what or who created the creator?

2#-I suggest you watch-"Parallel Universes" here on TDF.
will give you more insight about Universes exploding out of nowhere.

3#-I agree, There is no logic in Quantum.

Looking forward to your next posts. :D

Yavanna

Are we from here on in suspending belief then? This is the essence of all things religious. I`ll be following the discussion but only in a hypothetical non transient basis in that case... Oh me of lil faith...

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

I tried to watch all your link.

Could only watch half, are you trying to convert me?

Is is a creationist link, a philosophical play on words about beliefs, no scientific verbage at all. Strictly religious beliefs, with no proofs, only circular logic with a creationist view point.
Suppose because he is a minister, will be biased.

Talked about violence, other religions, why should we "not" believe in God etc:

It did not do anything for me, and nothing for the CA.

I do not want to enter into a philosophical debate, show me some science.

Robbie

Lol, that's his point. Even science doesn't have such a solid, rigid foundation, and "proofs" don't exist in the sense of an infallible argument that is 100% true. He basically gives ideas of why he believes in God, and specifies that they are not proofs. It is a creationist link in the sense that the guy talking is a believer in God and that God created the world, but he is not a fundamentalist who believes in a young Earth and he doesn't discredit evolution. He used scientific facts to support his belief in a God; he didn't say they are proofs of the existence of God, but just good arguments that make sense.

What arguments or statements didn't you like?

I think that in arguments such as the CA, it is impossible to separate philosophy and science. Even though the webpage you posted had some things that showed how the universe could have come about without a creator, they are just speculations. As I said earlier, for example, since the total energy of the universe is zero, and there is no contradiction with the laws of physics that the universe was not created, then how come there aren't universes popping out of nowhere all the time? The answer to that question probably dabbles a bit in probability, but clearly has to delve deep into philosophy also.

I think science and philosophy aren't completely inseparable. What do you think?

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

Fine, but we are not talking philosophy here, we are talking about religion, which has nothing to do with philosophy. Namely Christian, apparently the one and only, numero-uno! The majority rules I guess.

How about Eastern religions, or esoteric, and even the one that is the most abhorrent to the Christians, New Age! That claim everything is a mind construct, why even Quantum Physics says the same thing!!
Have you delved into Quantum Physics? if you have not, you should. Watch "Parallel Universes" for a little insight.

You think other religions, or other paradigms have no validity? And then there is reincarnation, which makes some sense to me. Reincarnation that was taken out of the Bible.

We should talk about all religions, and all paradigms than for inclusion if we talk about CA.

Us little carbon based units, our civilization, that have been around in the Universe time span, is like a neutrino colliding with a hydrogen Atom. Just a flicker, than we think our God if such, created everything because of and for us. the whole Universe because of our little flicker? I am sorry, as Feynman said, we are just to small!

How many civilizations have already been around and gone? nobody knows.

And again I say that science is only beginning to find answers, to the great mystery of life, and the universe. I do believe that science will find proofs to the origin of life and the Universe. It is inevitable.

We are still a class "0" civilization, a long way to go to a class "3" civilization, than we will be shooting to the stars.

It is always an upward mobility with science, science is not stuck in a mold with nowhere to go.
Not so with Religion, no new answers there at all, just circular logic Ad: infinitum.

Yavanna

Robbie I watched your link too, but gave up after about half way, same reasons.

Yes, I have delved into quantum mechanics (I am still learning), and I find it fascinating.

"You think other religions, or other paradigms have no validity?" Not precisely that, but there must exist a universal truth. If someone affirms that there doesn't exist one, then they're making that into a universal truth.

Why doesn't religion have to do with philosophy? Since the Greeks, philosophers have been trying to define and seek characteristics of the soul, the body, God, etc...

"We should talk about all religions, and all paradigms than for inclusion if we talk about CA."

Of course. I stated before that the CA is more a question of the existence of a creator, and not of specific properties of this creator (which would lead to the discussion of different religions).

"Just a flicker, than we think our God if such, created everything because of and for us. the whole Universe because of our little flicker? I am sorry, as Feynman said, we are just to small!"

The Bible says this very thing: "Who is man that you are mindful of him?". This is a mystery in Christianity also. You can't conclude that a God couldn't have created the universe just because it doesn't make sense.

"And again I say that science is only beginning to find answers, to the great mystery of life, and the universe."

I agree, but I also think that science can't explain it all. Actually, because of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics, we'll never be able to know everything, or even close to everything.

I don't say science is stuck. However you can't compare science and religion. Religion explains (to be objectively correct, let's say "tries to explain") life from a completely different perspective. It's like the difference between explaining having a crush on a girl from the perspective of science (all the chemical reactions that take place when you're with that girl, etc.) and explaining it in a love poem.

In my case, I believe in the Bible, and nowhere does it say that the Earth is thousands of years old (I have studied it and there is no way you can reach that conclusion), it doesn't describe explicitly how the universe was created, in many places it is written using figurative language and not concrete language; the Bible isn't a text book or a science book! It describes life with a completely different perspective.

Yavanna: What arguments did you not like? I would like both you and Achems Razor to give specific arguments and why you didn't like them; I'd like to learn.

Still haven't been able to watch those two videos you posted; haven't had time. Hopefully tomorrow I can watch them.

Achems Razor, just curious, why do you think reincarnation makes sense? Where does it appear in the Bible?

katerpult

welcome to the new dark ages! freedom to stupidity! hail America! I got to throw up.

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

It seems like we are doing CA. (LOL). Really, I am not interested in that. To me it is utterly boring.

Have no notion of trying to disprove God.
Do not really care, one way or the other.

I have come to conclusion people who are deeply religious, seen the light etc: have, what is called a God module in their Brain.
I do not!

If you want to know about reincarnation, Google it. far to exhaustive a subject to have a discourse on.

A few facts on it though, from the web.
24% of American public believe in reincarnation.
23% of American Christians believe in reincarnation.
23% of American Christians believe in Astrology.
Why is that??

Maybe "Yavanna" wants to take over on the CA. I do not.

Peace. :D

Yavanna

Nope I don't want to discuss CA, As I originally stated I suggest you do so with Chris on the other topic "“How did the universe begin.”

"Yavanna: What arguments did you not like?"

Not sure what you are asking me; if we are on the CA then I wrote a lot of stuff about it in response to Chris. But to sum up; it's just word play.

Achems here's a some interesting stats (a bit dated but relevant)

The Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:

Might just be religious people "on the paper". I was registered catholic here for the first 16 years of my life until I actually told them to put my name off that list. And I only did that because I didn't want to give any of the money I earn to the church ("Kirchensteuer" - 'church tax' in Germany).

Robbie

I agree with Hardy, many people say they are Catholic/Protestant/Whatever, but never actually "practice the religion".

Achems Razor: I don't care about discussing the CA, but if you said you couldn't watch the rest of the video, you should have some good, concrete reasons!

Yavanna, I ask the same thing, about the video: If you couldn't watch the rest of the video, you should have some good, concrete reasons, or some type of problem with the arguments used!

I'd love to know what those problems are.

Achems Razor, even though many Christians may believe in reincarnation, that doesn't mean that it's in the Bible...

About the "God module", I know many people who have been "devout atheists" and have had an experience with Christ. That's one difference that exists between atheism and Christianity; Christianity says that God actually exists, not only intellectually but physically, and that you can actually know him. It claims that God does miracles, heals people, talks today, etc., while atheists say that God is a purely intellectual concoction.

For me, debating about whether God exists or not is like debating about whether a certain friend of mine exists or not. I have seen amazing things that cannot be explained intellectually or just by science!

Robbie

I think that in order to believe in something, intellectual soundness isn't enough, and must be followed by some sort of experience.

Yavanna

The speaker in your video link offered nothing new. Same old tired sermon. He didn't give arguments to refute, but his personal beliefs. Whilst it all may come across as very profound and interesting to a believer I don't quite understand what you expected us to gain from it.

Achems Razor

@ Robbie:

I did not watch the rest of the video, because it was, plain and simple, boring! Same old, same old.

Of course reincarnation it is not in the Bible now, it has been re-written so many times, nobody knows what is true or not.

Did not say that I believe in reincarnation, said it makes some sense to me. I take everything with a grain of salt.

You say God heals people, talks to people, does miracles, talks today?
Right!
Are you referring to God itself, or the following partial list of debunked healing evangelists.

Amazing things?? Depends what drugs people take (LOL)
True there are unexplained phenomena, does not mean religion takes a part.

You seem entirely bent on proving God and that your religion is viable.
I, on the other hand am not trying to prove anything.

The only thing I more or less believe in, most religion has its basis in Astrology.
And before you go on a rant about that, watch "Zeitgeist" here on TDF.

Peace. :D

Robbie

@Achems Razor:

That list you mentioned, of course they're probably fakes! I can give you a few more names of fake healers and the like, if you want, many of which are supposedly great pillars of modern Christianity.

The healing I have seen has taken place where one or two people (not necessarily pastors) pray for someone and the person is healed, or sometimes a bunch of people pray and over time the person is healed. Nothing of that "throwing the jacket full of the Holy Spirit and everyone falls over" type of thing. I am extremely skeptical of those preachers, and am certain that most of what happens is fake.

I am not trying to prove God, because flawless proofs don't exist in the real world. Try proving we exist, for one! Many things are logical or intuitive, but I don't think anything can be proven. I thought this "forum" was about sharing one's ideas and discussing them with others; in this case the debate is over Evolution/ID, which is tied to the argument of God's existence.

Why do you post if you aren't trying to show anything?

Achems Razor and Yavanna, the preacher in the video wasn't trying to refute anything, but was only giving arguments that supported the existence of God. I wanted to know your opinion, but your concrete opinion. For example, I didn't agree with such and such argument because...

Achems Razor

Correction:

Benny Hinn, not Benny Hill.

Robbie, if you want to know truths, things that were omitted from the Bible, check out "Reb's" posts at "Richard Dawkins-the Blind Watchmaker" here on TDF.

Yavanna

This is clearly a pointless discussion. I gave you the benefit of the doubt Robbie in light of my predatory disclosure of your ambiguities which seem to be proven true.

My best friend in school was an extremely devout Christian, the most intelligent person I have ever known personally. He was the best man at my wedding. He went on to get a 1st in mathematics at Oxford and holds senior responsibility within a major pensions company (I forget the name of the speciality.) He became an atheist not far into his University experience. He grew up thankfully.

"I thought this “forum” was about sharing one’s ideas and discussing them with others;"

Ummm no this is a documentary website. Sometimes pleasant discussion takes place and views are shared. It is not a place holder for rabid views and repetitive wish thinking. You may wish to adjust your channel to gob tube. Oops God tube.

If faith was ever an issue I am despondent - go watch some of the links provided to relevant documentaries on this site and fit them into whatever narrow minded superstitions you have decided to lobotomise yourself with.

I have no more patience with this.

Yavanna

actuarialist!!!! it came to me!

(his speciality)

Achems Razor

Actually, I think we caught another one, they are sneaky,
coming under different guises,

I know some Math. PHD's, To become a Math. PHD. you have to live and breathe Math, no time for any thing else, except , study, and more study, and than again more study.

Certainly no time to waste on website forums.

So bon-voyage, Robbie. Nice try!

Solomon S. Buyco

Altruism is the right word, but then again... words are words until there comes along the definitions...

Realist or what ever words it would dwell with, will just fold along the way if what really matters counts... especially when it deals and process in terms with survival.

The wrench and the wrenched. What was it said about wibble, wibble is not wibble... until it is wibble.

A hammer and a sickle... is a tools needed for works... but the subject is on how to nail and harvest.

Robbie

Achem's Razor: In Chile the seasons are opposite; right now it's summer, and therefore I am on summer vacation. The school year starts in March and ends in December. You are right, during the school year I would have no time for this. I'm not going to try any more to prove who I am. Think what you will.

Yavanna: I, too, have lost my patience. I haven't imposed any belief or talked without backing up what I've said. I have shown you things I believe, and have asked for your opinion, and instead of trying to show me or "prove" to me that I am wrong, you simply dismiss my comments by saying that you don't like what I say, or what I say is not valid. You have yet to present a solid or concrete argument against any of my arguments or thoughts; I told you that if you show me good arguments, I am willing to be swayed from what I think and believe. I asked you to convince me!

When I started talking about what I've experienced and seen, you changed the subject and started questioning my credibility again!

Achems Razor

Okay, @ Robbie:

You school year ends in Dec? You started on this forum on Oct. 26th 2009 at 15:47. Case closed. We are done.

@ Solomon: Your back? we had a few days reprieve from you.
Again I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!!

Solomon S. Buyco

@Achem,

For you.. I am not back, I am up front on what is!

This world doesn't belong just for you... You may or you may not but as it is, I do recognize you but I don't recognize of what was from what is... as you claim as it will be from what was created.

Get along fine with what is... :o)

Hardy

@Solomon: I read your post again and again. I still don't understand a word you're saying.

Yavanna

Solomon I have a theory

I am not being sarcastic - but am I correct?

I`m guessing English is NOT your first language and you may be using an online web translator.

So whilst the words might be translated to a close meaning they are often not in the right order.

None of us wish to be rude when we say we do not understand you. Maybe keep things simpler for all our benefit.

Hesus

@ Yavanna

I think there is one more possibility! Solomon is in fact the new caractere of Sacha Cohen Baron and by the looks of it you will not want to miss that! Gonna be better than Bruno for shure :)

Yavanna

I prefer my thesaurus and a blender theory but you could be right!

http://howisearth.wordpress.com/ Tor

Ben Stein is not that smart.

Yavanna

Solomon I see you are taking on Chris at CA - good man - go get him!

Solomon S. Buyco

Well, I am here to watch and learn too and not just to comment. :)

svper

Just finished watching this "documentary" what a joke. Watch the PBS documentary on the Dover, PA evolution trial to see a real docmentary

Solomon S. Buyco

What can I say??? 'GODLESS World' is a lie!!! lol

Godless World is just putting humanities in the world of wonders of the Serpent.

Yavanna

Godless world is the truth!

Prove otherwise WITHOUT a biblical reference. Prove it through a personal experience. Tell us all about it! Describe your mystical experiences - BUT PLEASE NO MORE BLOODY SCRIPTURE references!

You read a book. You have been told repeatedly it is the truth. So much so you cannot think otherwise. It's called brain washing! Deux ex machina = the machine does not know it is broken!

Speak about your personal experiences please. Those I/ we are interested in. The rest we can read in ummmmm a book (not a very good one though.)

Solomon S. Buyco

:) Your 'Godless World' is just one in a million true! lol

Isauya Bin Chillin

Haha, that was a disaster. Stein... it just.. doesn't.. make... sense...

Hardy

@Solomon: I don't understand your posts! Seriously!

"Godless World is just putting humanities in the world of wonders of the Serpent." - ???

"Your ‘Godless World’ is just one in a million true! lol" - ???

tophaed2

how can people be so sure with out solid prof.
fuc faith in theory, to both side

Solomon S. Buyco

It looks as if the world have crumbled in reading some verses in the Bible, but as it is, it sucks because reality sucks!

Luke 12:56
You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?

It is in their hearts! People, It is in their hearts. Like Jesus to be a 'Lamb of God'! What do you others call them? Double kill?... And also about 'God sacrifices His only begotten son'? That is a scape goat! Those mob really knows how to gain the momentum to stay in power with their "graft and corruption" schemes!

Anyway @Hardy, I do not want to get entangled with your ways and means. So, I will leave you alone of what is a Serpent is, in Middle east, it is a snake, in Europe, it is a Dragon... Well, to me, as I have learned to stay in the guiding influence of Jesus, I say, it was the beginning and the end results of every life on their individual's evolutions. As for the reference of this kind of talk, I will point out that the whole Creation was created in just six days is a point blank of telling others that denials is not a way of getting into the core of the matters. you know, like this"UNIVERSE" which I made in less than a second.
As for one in a million true, I just copied the system from the people who are used in giving out their kind of opinion. People who have agreed to disagree. Who can blame them, eyes are made for seeing and not for reading.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Uh if god is perfect, and god knows all, and gods will creates gods plan then god should know how the human race god created (with sin mind you) would interpret something, and thus could have made sure his writings were in a way that could only be handled one way.

Try again.

Solomon S. Buyco

Let there be light, and there was light... Original Design was on Intelligent Design and when you go against of what was unto what God had created as it is, is a sin... and it is the handy works of the Devil...

God had warned, "Do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge."

Achems Razor

Which I have to add Was "Amanita Muscaria and Psilocybin" magic mushrooms, that gave religious epiphanies!

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Hmm I think I have to agree with previous posts.

Solomon, your an *****. Why don't you just gather your friends and pray that the atheists are immediately punished?

While your at it, take this lucky horseshoe, a heads up penny and an entire wishing well.

Good luck.

Solomon S. Buyco

Ever wonder about atheism? Well, I have something to share about them:

The higher intelligence and the atheist... Simply put, the Master and the Mammoth. lol

Reason of all reason is the reason of existence.

Stephen

Alright, I keep seeing over and over again people who are wanting evolution to prove to him how life began. Evolution and natural selection are not equipped to do such a thing for they are processed of life. Evolution can't explain how life began because it is not made to explain how life began its made to explain how life is. If you want to examine the origins of life itself its better to turn to chemistry and physics. And yes it is undoubtedly so that that any field in science has yet to postulate any proven theory on how life began but why this is seen as a failure I'll never know. The answer to that question is at the heart of science, its why the scientific method is practiced at all. Its not that the scientific community has failed to answer the question of the process from abiotic to biotic its that they have yet to succeed. And that's in no way a bad thing.
Also, when it comes to saying that the probability of life emerging from non-life is too low and therefore its impossible is asinine and STUPID in the purest sense of the word. And I'm not being insulting. Under the right condition organic chemicals natural form into amino acids, permeable membranes and other proto-life qualities. This is so natural that its even universal for were even finding amino acids in space rocks. So I'd like to know where the numbers are coming from? Because they're not coming from nature. Why is it so wrong for life to come from non-life, for consciousness to come from non-consciousness, being from non-being? Where else is should it come from?
I would at last very much like know what these holes in evolution are, these flaws in the theory that I keep hearing about. Because time and time again, I have looked and overlooked and I have seen nothing but an eloquent observation of how life operates.

Hardy

@Stephen:

"Why is it so wrong for life to come from non-life, for consciousness to come from non-consciousness, being from non-being? Where else is should it come from?"

- Because human beings wouldn't feel special anymore. All religion is based on the human to be a 'creation', to be more than the norm. It's hard for many people to accept that we are just tiny organisms in a pretty f*cking huge universe, the ego refuses to accept these things. Sad that many people don't have the self-awareness to recognize these basic human instincts.

Yavanna

Well said Stephen

When creationists yap it is generally about what 'they' see as tiny weaknesses in Darwinism, yet they fail to acknowledge that that 150 year old theory is still as concrete as Newtons 300 year gravity one. Even so it is the entire wealth of scientific findings (of which the theory of evolution gave birth to one one branch- modern biology) which they neglect to argue or understand.

To acknowledge anything of the sort would mean for them to understand their lives are being lived by rules of very old lies.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

There have been several scientific models. I cant remember the video I saw, but someone made a program that generated "creatures" randomly via evolution. The goal was to get the food, now the ones that randomly (over 100's of thousands of random attempts through evolution) had better results those multiplied more.

Something surprising in his work was the fact that one of the creatures actually skipped the food and attacked the other creature in order to protect it.

Its really amazing stuff. I believe its a documentary it might even be here.

Yavanna

"the blind watchmaker" a doc on the site - I submitted a link but it is pending moderation.

Aman S

I want to recruit an army of holocaust deniers to follow Ben Stein everyday of his life, so he can see the fallacy of denying evolution.

If he can deny evolution on grounds of 'questioning everything' then why do Jews continually condemn those deny the holocaust?

If you are Jewish, please be ethically consistent, do not go around preaching one thing and doing another. Either abolish the Anti-Defamation League and continue denying Natural Selection or shut up and continue prosecuting.

Before you take this out of proportion, I do not deny the holocuast personally. I am demonstrating that denial is denial in any given situation. If 'facts' corroberate the holocaust, then 'facts' also corroberate evolution. You cannot go around picking and choosing facts.

Murdoch

Excellent Video!
I like people who are open minded i believe we all should be, even if we have a belief/faith. I am a christian and i am open minded. You can work out major things using the simplist of formats. For exampleany religion or belief THE WORLD , how did that happen well after using all my common sense and eveidence i believe the world was created as it would be harder for me to believe other wise (thats without having any affiliation to any religion or faith) The next step - who made the world? a higher being, someone/something must have started it. God a creater person. does the bible have any answers (i go there because it is a book that has stood the test of time and has hard evidence for its accuracy, It begins saying that God created this world. well thats my answer but i have to say i couldnt believe that unless i believed the rest of the book and indead understood the true meaning/message of the book. which i have come to the conculsion that it is the truth and that is has and does set people trully free. P.S. why do athiests get so angry and are so rude sometimes when they are talking about this subject, answers on a postcard please.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

You say using all your common sense and evidence, however you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that a creator being made the world, and from your post I doubt your general common sense.

Basically what your saying is you believe the bible nonsense because its easier? I am glad there are people in the world that don't have that point of view otherwise nothing would ever get accomplished.

If you accepted everything in the bible at face value, then you would need to go back to believing a geocentric universe. You would also never need any medicine, doctors, science, or help of any kind. All abortions would be "part of gods plan" and all murderers would be doing gods work (since he planned the beginning and end of their victims lives, obviously he planned their death and thus the murderer is doing his work).

As to your question why we go so angry, that's easy. Religious people in power make important decisions based on their ridiculous superstitions instead of facts and science.

There is a link attached to my name read it. Maybe evolve your common sense and move out of the superstitious darkness you currently reside in.

Achems Razor

@ Murdoch:

I completely agree with @ Beck:...there is not one iota or shred of "Hard Evidence" in the Bible, Bibles, of any such evidence of which you speak. Common sense?? all it is, is a belief, nothing more, nothing less.

Show some hard provable "Evidence" of which you speak, so we can take that to the bank!

Christians to me are "far" from open minded!! They are stuck in a mind set, in a mold, of which there is no escape.
All they have is "the bible told me so"!!

Back to the "dark ages" anyone??

Morther

Give an atheist a complete Universe replete with his own pink ass and he's ready to deny any God.
How many tens of millions of people have been killed as a direct result of atheistic regimes in the last century?
Dawkins, Hitchens and their guppies all will be forgotten in decades to come.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Wow, thats the first time anyone had the gall to actually make that ridiculous arguement.

The number 1 cause of death in the world is easily religion. The Crusades, The Holocaust, The French Wars, The Spanish Inquisition, The Thirty Years War, The Taipin Rebellion the Muslim wars, the India Wars.

And think about your first comment, and keep this in mind. I only deny 1 more god then you do, and considering the estimated 28,000,000 gods in all of history. You have a .000000003571% chance of being right then I do.

You ignore and deny 27,999,999 gods and dare to attack me for denying your 1.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Just to keep this in fact, I apologize it is .00003571% :)

Murdoch

What is required to be content in life? What gain would it be to you if you were to own the whole world, you wont be able to own it forever as with all life it fades away, and we will all die one day. 1 out of every 1 dies, thats obvious we all know that, so who made up rules for life if they dont matter. cant i just live my life by stealing and killing people i dont like, i can do that if i want cant i? who can stop me there is no rules applicable to me i choose to do what i want right? if u believe there are rules i want to know where they came from and why they made them in the first place? who invented death? can we take a look at this world in all its glory and come to the conclusion that it came from nothing? someone give me answers to the meaning of life please and tell me how i should live it?

Hardy

"someone give me answers to the meaning of life please and tell me how i should live it?"

Those aren't any questions anybody can answer FOR you. Also, there is no correct or incorrect answer. Think about it and find purpose in your life.

That is, by the way, another problem I have with (organized) religion. I actually think about these questions and come to my own, personal, conclusions... and there comes religion and tells me I am absolutely wrong and they are absolutely right and there is no doubt and that's why I'm going to hell. The arrogance that comes from the assumed certainty concerning the most fundamental questions about human existence is just sickening.

Mr. Balls

"What is required to be content in life? What gain would it be to you if you were to own the whole world, you wont be able to own it forever as with all life it fades away, and we will all die one day. 1 out of every 1 dies, thats obvious we all know that, so who made up rules for life if they dont matter. cant i just live my life by stealing and killing people i dont like, i can do that if i want cant i? who can stop me there is no rules applicable to me i choose to do what i want right? if u believe there are rules i want to know where they came from and why they made them in the first place? who invented death? can we take a look at this world in all its glory and come to the conclusion that it came from nothing? someone give me answers to the meaning of life please and tell me how i should live it?"

This is a really funny post. It makes some wild assumptions about non-believers. First, they all necessarily desire to own the whole world. Second, without belief in a diety, they have no restraints on their personal actions and are therefore free of an any moral restraints against acting like homicidal maniacs, raping and stealing as they wish. No religion = no morality or ethics.

"Who INVENTED death"?!?!- Why does this require any answer?

I find it interesting the post ends with an open plea to be handed the "meaning of life". As if to say, "Please tell me what to do, what to think. I can't handle life without a strong daddy figure to spell out all the anwsers for me."

What's wrong with simply answering some of life's biggest mysteries by simply saying- I don't know, and I probably never will?

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Murdoch, that was among one of the most ridiculous posts ever made, and I think you should really sit down and rethink your own stance on things. Your close to Solomon on not making sense.

@Balls, Your absolutely right. I dislike religion in all of its settings as I have found very few good things that come out of it, that cant be gotten better ways. However I still hold my self to a high standard of ethics, and sadly I do better then most of the people I see around me preaching religion.

Hardy

@Mr.Balls: Agnosticism is the most honest and adult answer there is, isn't it?

LET

lol

I love when Christians say: Well Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot where atheists and look what happened? They had no morals because they had no religion, and they killed people on a mass scale...(this is in reference to Mother's statement that atheists kill millions of people)

I just want to say before I address that, that Hitler was actually a Catholic, and he actually had a truce and sort of a relationship with the Pope at the time of World War II. There is a very big debate in the historical community right now about how exactly "in league" the Pope at the time. Some historians believe that he was evil and in to help Hitler in what way he could, and some say that he gave into Hitler only because he feared for his life and the safety of the Vatican - a very touchy argument...

But getting back to the whole: "Stalin was an atheist and he slaughtered millions" thing...

FIRST:

If you really want to go there and make a list of who has killed more people throughout history - the religions of the world would beat atheism fair and square with the BILLIONS who have died in the name of God...So ya, you can say Stalin, but I can also say: Richard the Lionheart and the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, or Maybe Andrea Yates? Remember a few years ago she drowned her five children in the name of God, and because her parish priest had been diligent in scaring her about the devil and being evil?

SECOND:

When people say, well "Stalin was an atheist and he killed many people, therefore atheism is bad"....I reply: "Stalin was also a man...does that mean all men are bad?"...."Stalin also had a mustache...does that mean all people with mustaches are bad?"...."He was Russian...does that mean all Russians are bad?"..."Stalin also breathed oxygen...does that mean if your an oxygen breathing mammals are bad?"

...the answer is no. I may be an atheist, and I know the bloody history of Christianity, but I am logical and I don't assume every Christian I meet is crazy or fundamentalist or prone to bloodshed in the name of god.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Hey Lavender,

Sowwy for waiting so long since the 127 posts that came before me to chime in with a rebuttal, but...

My daddy is also my husband.
My husband graduated from Air Force tech school.
That gives my daddy-husband the Authority of Truth when He sez your hubbie doesn't really know what the origin of Life is. BWAahahaha. I cracked me up, again.

Don't squabble nor fight. Period. Be happy every day, doing things that keep you productive and useful to The World around you. That's the ONLY concept, religion and science I will ever need.
I have it on good Authority that It's also the only concept, religion and science any of YOU will ever need. And if you just so happen to make a lot of money in that process, then good on ya. You can enjoy your free time that much better.

Hmmmph... Scientits.

Beck

I understand your trying to be laid back and let everything be chill. But that attitude doesn't get things done, just lets people walk all over you. If I literally don't care what other people do and I don't fight for whats right then I'm just a useless bit of rug to be dusted off when someone else needs something.

Real life isn't that easy. Probably time to grow up.

Obsidian

Stein make a very strange parallel with his opening appeal to emotion and out inherit desire to be free. If you are responsible for publishing something, which one of his interveiwes does, that does not preclude you from responsibility. How that is missed i dont know. He makes a case for someone who published a intelligent design paper because he thought "it had some answers as to questions about the origins of life" unfortunately it was a scientific magazine and ID is not scientific, so yeah you got to publish it because you are free, but you get to suffer the results of your decisions because others are free as well and who can fault some one for firing anyone who publishes misplaced ideas in their magazine, imagine he published the theory alien plantation for the origin of earth, or a flying spaghetti monster theory, would you expect him to get fired then? its the same thing ID is ridiculous.
stein goes on in this propaganda peace.
He should be ashamed.
anyone who liked this message because they think they are open minded, does not have the capacity for logic or critical thinking.

Murdoch

Do people think ben stein is not open minded and that the way he thinks is wrong. do you think that the way he is open minded is the perfect example of someone being open minded. if not explain? some of the comments on here recently seem to lack common sense intelligence. Is it possible for the human mind to be brought back to the place where the whole of human kind can say lets keep things simple, lets go with evidence and what is true and lets all start from, debate from, a start point and work out what we are going to work out with open mindedness and with maturity and see what we come up with. so we are all going down different paths but do you think there is meant to be only 1 right road or is there many, what would make 1 way better more reasonable than the other? is it meant to be so complex. my common sense might even differ from another persons common sense, is that frustrating or do we just have to accept that? if you have morals where do u get these morals from? where do you get your right and wrong from? yes we can all decide ourselves, but im talking about the obvious ones firstly eg. murder is wrong im assuming we all agree in its simplest form that it is wrong for me to murder another person for no reason. so that being said where did our minds get that 'murder is wrong' from? are some people blind ignorrant gullible from a form of morality. i know this is a huge issue and i am by no means an expert but i just enjoy debate. i mean for evolutionists to hate people who mention I.D. that in ANYONES mind shows very unintelligent anger for absolutly no reason and exposes them as cant be trusted, i mean why so angry its only a theory right? from this movie you cant doubt that evolutionists have closed minds and seem to be scared of people who believe in intelligent design, what happened to freedom?

Epicurus

@murdoch

do you really think that we are only good because god put it in our brains not to kill people?

the evolutionary answer is that over time of humans coming together and living in large groups they realized that acting selfishly doesnt work. when we all work together it makes our lives ultimately easier and more comfortable.

any sane person can see many many good reasons not to do "bad" things, there is no need to think a god made it so.

also when you say murder is wrong we have to ask what "wrong" means...really all it means is what we dont like or what goes against our ultimate goal. our goal as a society is to exist comfortably with the most people as happy as possible. anyone killing others goes against that ideal making it wrong. if enough people killed more than we could breed our species wouldnt survive. so naturally we made defense mechanisms for survival....these are morals

the need for an invisible father figure to make you be good is also an evolutionary response. we realized that not everyone will cooperate with the morals that society evolved so in order for them to fall in line they had to have a belief in something that is watching and judging them at all times....however sane people dont need that crutch

now you say why cant Intelligent Design advocates have equal ground with evolutionists? the same reason people who say babies come from storks dont get to debate with someone who studies reproduction.

intelligent design HAS been given its day in court and it lost. it is NOT science it has NO evidence and it makes NO sense.

are you saying geologists have closed minds because they say the earth is 4.4 billion years old or that it is round? do you say chemists have a closed mind because they dont take alchemists serious?

grow up and realize how stupid the stuff you are saying is.

Beck

@Murdoch - I have been open minded. I can 99.99% guarantee that I have read the bible more times, and more in depth then you or probably anyone but your local priest has.

Just because its simple doesn't mean its right.

If you agree with everything in the bible because its simple and easy then you agree with the following:

You agree with Slavery
You agree with Rape
You agree with killing children
You agree with killing (just about everyone)
You believe the world is flat
You believe the galaxy is geocentric (the earth is in the center instead of the sun)
You believe that women should shut up and should never have equal rights.
You believe the beginning people lived for 800+ years.
You believe in animal sacrifice.

I could continue but I want to make my next point. Were going to assume that the bible is basically true, and just look at the amazing flaws in the book itself without personal opinion.

If god created all men, and god is perfect. God made man with sin on purpose. Then punishes them for having sin.

If your argument is, Eve broke the rules by eating the apple, then it was Gods "plan" that Eve would break the rules. He is perfect and all knowing and all powerful, he should know what she was going to do. Especially since its mentioned several times in the bible the God plans the beginning and end of every living being.

If God is all knowing and all powerful. Then he knows the pain and suffering people go through, and does nothing. He puts them on this planet to go through their suffering for nothing more then to prove he is god. If you say that the devil is the cause of all pain and suffering, isn't God... well.. a God? Cant he just poof the devil out of existence and be done with it?

That is all I'll post here. you can check my link in my name to see other things but even that site doesn't cover all of the ridiculous levels of the bible.

I don't think this little box could hold all the things wrong with the bible.

I think considering the above it may be better to stop being lazy and looking for the easy sheep way to live, and make your own damn mind up about things based on LOGIC and COMMON SENSE. Which you seem to lack in great amounts.

But please, have a good day.

Murdoch

why the anger, i just dont get it. I dont know any priests and i have absolutly no idea what they do. I guess you have to have your eyes open to understand the true meaning of the bible, but then thats my word against your word in saying that. You take the bible as a whole. the list of you agree... and you believe... is pathetic. remember God is greater than us and in so being we have no right to question what he does, although what you say he does is wrong i shall say something about that later, but this is like saying that something we have made can question the person who made it. if i am a manager then all below me ought to show me respect. this is but a human way of trying to explain the difference between God and us. now God made and and eve and gave them what they needed to survive he them them a mind to think and make decisions, adam and eve chose to disobey god, and that is clearly not Gods fault. there is so much involved in this subject youd have to be a a believer to understand and believe it. yes god does and will rightly so punich disobedience as he is Holy and pure and hates sin and as the creater of all the universe has the authority and discretion to do as he pleases, BUT he has given us a way of escape from the punishment of sin, in sending Jesus to be our saviour so that just as John 3:16 says That god so loved the world that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Fantastic news for people who will one day die. we can have the promise and hope of going to heaven forever by trusting in jesus. thats the Good news that the bible clearly shows us. God does know everything he knows what his creaters are cabable of, similarly a person who makes something knows what it is like and what it can do because he made it. the fact we have the capacity to create stems from the God who made us in HIS IMAGE. He knows the future and he knows what we will do hard to believe but true as God is way above us, we cannot fully comprehend him, like a robot cannot fully comprehend a human. Gods plans are way above our understanding but we have caused our own downfall not God, we didnt have to disobey God in the beginning but because of adam and eves decision the whole of mankind therafter has suffered, thats how terrible sin really is, its end is death but the free gift of God is eternal life, why wont we accept this gift, many are ignorant, many will not listen cause the sinfull heart is agaisnt god and will never on its own accord want to follow the ways of God. that why there are millions of people living in total disobedience to Gods command. there is indeed huge suffering, yes we are all sinners we are the ones to blame we caused all this mess, all this suffering has come from our first father Adam, BUT God has told us how we can be rescued from sins consequences and find peace, hope and true life to the full. I am unemployed at the moment and life is hard for me, as i have a wife and young child but i am thankfull i have Jesus with me as my friend and i know his peace and comfort and i know the joy of finding forgiveness and of hope that i will go to heaven where there will be no more sin and no more pain and suffering there when i die. i try my best to live to the best of my abailities in this world but i would love for people to come to understand that jesu sis real that he can offer us peace forgiveness and hope, and we all need that, jesus can give it, i am not lying. God will finally defeat the devil when jesu sreturns one day in the future, if we follow jesus now He will give us the power to resist and turn from the devil now, but iltimately on the second comming of jesus he will then take His people to heaven where the devil will never get at them. In this world right here and right now, in our lives, as long as we are alive we still have a chance to flee from all that is evil and wrong and find life in jesus and ONLY in Him. remember God is GREATER than we are we CANNOT FULLY understand his greatness, we DO KNOW enuff to amaze us and understand what he is like from what we read in the bible, but ina nutshell He cares for you i know there is so much hardship in this world that cant just be wiped away there are consequences for when we do things but God has given to this a world a saviour who will accept us as we are and guide us thru the rest of ourlives and then take us to heaven forever, God loves us but if we dont love him what good is that for us. God could have said to adam and eve right ok you disobeyed me thats it suffer the consequences forever for that (he is well within is right to do that, BUT HE DIDNT he gave us jesus as our saviour to restore our lost, broken relationship with him, look at britian is it just a coincedance or is it not that as we have started to get further away from god and the bible the country is going steeper and steeper downhill, dismissing God and the bible is foolish. and you CANT dismiss it as not true do a search for the authenticity of the bible. Obviously this is so clear to me as i have SEEN THE LIGHT, those who havent seen the light will disagree, but there is only so much i can say, there is a real sense that i want you to see the truth and this world is full of confusion and distortion but we all i am sure wanna go to heaven, nobody wants to go to hell, we dont have to but if we dont believe then we will justifiably go there, we are the guilty ones if the creater chooses the sentance the creation cant disagree but again WE DONT HAVE TO go there repent and believe the gospel of jesus christ. It is true people have died for this truth and there are christians right now are being punished and cruelly put to death because they believe in jesus. why are they being put to death, what is so wrong with believeing in jesus some people are being put to death, for us in britain that aint happenning but you can see the hostility against christians rising huh. maybe one day that could actually happen here, well, the way things are going i wouldnt be surprised.

Beck

I'm not even going to read that, nor will I respond to you after this.

Your a sheep and a tool. Good luck in life.

Epicurus

TL;DR

Murdoch

What to you mean by sheep?
are you afraid that i have strong convictions, are you worried about reading the name of Jesus Christ and hearing His glorious message of salvation for all people. the truth does repel, people are afraid of the truth, do a google search for all athiests who resented their life and belief on their death bed and then see those christians who sing the name of jesus when they died. what confidence they had in the creator of the world. a real heartfull knowledge of what is true and real, dawkins freely admits he doesnt know the very concept of life but i a little snail of a man knows that the almighty God made this world. its trully not rocket science, honest. what does TL;DR stand for? why am i being called names yet i will ne ver call u any names, what does that say? soon as you mention the truth about jesus, peopel cant stand it they dont wanna talk about it just as evolutionists dont wanna talk about I.D. Remember we all have a choice to do what we want, choose jesus before it is to late!!

Achems Razor

@ Murdoch:

It seems like you are trying to convince yourself, with all your blathering.
If you believe everything that you say you do, than you should not try to convince other people of your beliefs,

I personally do not care what you believe in, so give it a rest!!

Epicurus

TL:DR stands for Too long didnt read.....if you are going to make insane pointless posts of just rambling and poor punctuation and grammar no one is going to read it.

if you do a google search you will see that the video of those atheists last words are mostly made up and not true. but once again you see something and you believe it without actually studying it for yourself...that is sad. you are a dishonest intellectually lazy person.

you cant say someone doesnt know the meaning of life....NO ONE KNOWS IF THERE IS MEANING....you ASSUME there is meaning.

what is the meaning of black holes? or quasars?

you dont have to call me names, all you do is say "atheists do this or that" in a negative way...THAT is calling names. especially when what you are saying is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

i would LOVE to talk about intelligent design and evolution since i have a BSc. in evolutionary biology...i would LOVE to debate with you about evolution.

before you say ANYTHING...i want you to go to youtube and search "chromosome 2" and watch the 5 minute video by a CATHOLIC scientist.

intelligent design?? LOL only a child or retarded thinks that is possible.

Bluesmanwalking

Thank you Vlatko for Murdoch's Vol.I
Now look at the Circus LOLOLOLOLOL

Peace.

Murdoch

remember what i said about assuming, well there is point in proof. you assume i am trying to convince myself but actually i am not trying to convince myself i am using my free will my open mindedness to make choices and i have found the TRUE meaning of life, if thats not what u believe well thats ok for the way YOU live. Christians have become christians by christians passing the good news on to others, some believe some dont, i believed and i am so gratefull that i was told of the glorious good news that Jesus can and has forgiven my sins and given me a new life new hope and new and beter purpose for life and for eternity. (life after death). Following jesus is not something EXTRA to add to our lives like a sport you partake in on a weekly basis, it takes over every are of your live, for the better. im happy but i would be even more happier if people would also believe in Jesus, now i could speak with all the eloquince in the world at the end of the day its up to every individual to choose to live the way they want but i want you all to know that Jeus sis the ONLY way to go if you wanna go to heaven when u die. ok so folks dont believe that well this is serious look into it see what it is all about whether you can with clear evidence totally dismiss it or not. Giod bless!

Hardy

Murdoch, I could answer in a lengthy manner but I'll sum it up:

Religion gives simple answers to complicated questions. Probably the most complicated questions a human is capable to ask.

But, as most people learn while growing up, the easiest and most convenient answer isn't always the best one.

Murdoch

i dont like religion, being a christian means that i am in a relationship with jesus christ, true christians love and serve him only. i hate religion. seems that some people are going round in circles.

Epicurus

you know nothing about jesus aside from what you were told by a preacher or read in the bible...both of those things ARE religion.

Murdoch

what do you know about jesus? i know that he is my savour, he is the eternal son of God, the second part of the holy trinity, he is the only way to know god the father, he will be our judge on judgment day, as well as more things. I accepted jesus as my savuor personnaly, a preacher cant do that for me on my behalf, you cant go to heaven because your mum, dad, son or daughter believes in jesus.

The bible is a popular book some say THE most sold book ever but whether it is or not it is significant book, it has power if you have ears to hear you will know that what it says is true and real. There is ONLY ONE true God all other gods are false idols there is only one God in heaven one saviour of mankind and one way to heaven. Nothing might change your mind but i am persuaded that in all of creation there is nothing greater or better than knowing jesus christ as lord and savior. im not mad neither were jesus disciples neither were those who died to give us the bible in the first place and those who die today for being christians they are not ashamed or stupid either.

They killed jesus so if i stand up for jesus i am not going to be liked also. If they dont believe in the real deal then i certainly wont be listened to, unless God makes you see the light you wont believe either. to me its so clear and easy but i can understand why people find it hard.

Epicurus

you dont know any of that. you were told that by priests and books. you were told that by RELIGION.

if you can only be rewarded with heaven if you believe that is pathetic. if god is real and punishes GOOD people just because they dont believe in him, he is unjust AND petty.

you just ramble and ramble and you dont really say anything.

think before you type. everything you said could be said by a muslim and it will all mean the same things.

you can change your post with the words zeus or shiva and it will be just as pointless.

you seriously need to step back from your indoctrinated beliefs and try to question them honestly. because you clearly havent.

and i have read the bible many times so dont tell me i dont know about your religion and god, because i do.

Bluesmanwalking

@Murdoch: Please watch this Documentary "RETURN TO AFRICA'S WITCH CHILDREN" in the "Religion" section right here on this very site and then please explain this fabulation to me and if not to me then at the very least to yourself. Thanks.
Peace.

Murdoch

So much anger. im only stating what i believe, why the venom over the supposed stupid things i am saying. with all the OTHER Gods as stated above i still KNOW that there is only ONE that is true, that is the Creater God the God we read of in the bible, yes allah muhammod tall the rest they are NOT god in any way shape or form. i have not been indoctrinated. can i not believe what i believe, is that so hard, i am saying it is the truth and only truth, one day i will be wrong or right. i will not demean what others believe but i will advocate the true christian faith, i dont believe catholicism is the true christian faith. all the best folks.

Joe_nyc

You always learn something new at the school of TDF :)

Zoroastrianism: (c:p - Epi, figure this one out)
The religion was founded by Zarathushtra in Persia -- modern-day Iran. It may have been the world's first monotheistic faith. It was once the religion of the Persian empire, but has since been reduced in numbers to fewer than 200,000 today. Most religious historians believe the the Jewish, Christian and Muslim beliefs concerning God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, the virgin birth of the savior, slaughter of the innocents, resurrection, the final judgment, etc. were all derived from Zoroastrianism.

Epicurus

you say you believe it then you say you know it then you say it is true..

either you believe or you know....and i KNOW you dont KNOW. you absolutely 100% do not know who the right god is or even if there is a god...YOU BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH. that is all

when you make claims like "allah muhammod tall the rest they are NOT god in any way shape or form." you are saying you know they are all wrong and only you are right because the bible says so. but anyone who has honestly read the bible knows that it is fake stories.

no one is being mean to you or rude. YOU are being rude by telling us you KNOW that we are wrong and you are trying to act like the victim when you say YOU KNOW which god is right and we say you dont. you arent being attacked you are being asked to verify your statements.

watch this....I KNOW THAT I AM GOD AND THAT THE BIBLE IS A LIE

should i back that up? or should i just yell at everyone who tells me im wrong like you are doing?

how old are you?

Murdoch

if i could PROVE the bible is true would you believe?
I am not ramming it down your throats and do not intend to just telling about my faith.
i guess judgment day will sort me o and everyone out, if you believe there will be one as i do.
If you find yourselvs lost and at your wits end and are looking for a deeper fuller answer consult a true believer and the bible. Hope and pray you will all turn to Jesus. cheers folks.

Hardy

Last comment, don't actually want to join the frenzy :-)

@Murdoch:

"with all the OTHER Gods as stated above i still KNOW that there is only ONE that is true"

Correct that statement. You BELIEVE - you don't know a damn thing.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Even tho I said I wouldnt I cant pass this up.

@Murodch:

"if i could PROVE the bible is true would you believe?"

The answer is Yes! Of Course. If you could prove with the scientific method and had absolute proof that the writings in the bible were true. Then Yes!

And I am sorry Religion is dwindling and in another 100 years will be obsolete.

The more scientists proves the bible and other religious texts incorrect the less people rely on the bible.

Achems Razor

I wonder if there is a mental hospital up there in heaven. that maybe our religious friend could enter.
But you would think they should be selective, only admit people that are lucid, that have all there faculties, otherwise would give heaven a bad name! Don't you think? Loony bin in the sky??

Pidru Da Pogi

Beck

There is nothing I would like but to agree with you.

I do not remember who I read, Richard Dawkins I suppose, but the author was trying to answer the question why do people still believe in religion/superstition. The guy figured out that human beings were just wired that way. Remember, the demise of religion has been predicted since the renaissance, most especially Marxism and Darwinism, but here we still are.

Atheism is something that takes a little courage to accept, not just intelligence. You'd be surprised how many brilliant people I have met that are deeply religious.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Oh I absolutely Agree Pidru.

Its a scary world, a lot of crap that has hard to accept happens to people every day. Its easier to say its gods will and easier to accept the fact that someone has died based on that then it happened because of random happenstance.

I think it takes a lot of courage for people to drop religion and step out into the real world and leave superstition behind. I had it easy really, my family never forced religion on me and we moved far too often to be indoctrinated into it by neighbors etc.

I still believe it will be done with in another 100 years or so. The moment we find life on another planet, or can answer certain other prime questions (perfect evolution map) etc; it will cause a big upheaval in belief.

Joe_nyc

Beck

'it takes a lot of courage for people to drop religion'
Untrue. From my personal experience all it takes is to read the Bible and use some common sense.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

I disagree, when someone has been using ANYTHING as a crutch for long enough giving it up is very difficult. Religion is a crutch just like anything else and takes effort and time to truly let it go.

It should only take reading the bible and a bit of common sense, and for those of us who already disbelieve that seems like it should be easy, but for those who have spend 30-40 years believing that everything happens for a reason, they are protected and they have a safe place to go after death; its a difficult thing to let go of.

Also

Religious people just don't have common sense :)

Joe_nyc

Beck

I had been chained by religion(Protestant and Evanglical) over 30 years and I always had common sense.

Joe_nyc

And go out and live life. It's Friday!

Yourboycal

What a great documentary !!! I cant wait to show this to all my friends and family :D THis documentary has such great info and exposes sciensim at its finest today!! Thank you so much for uploading this great documentary :D :D :D

Morther

How did life start? Theory: Piggy backing crystals.

Sounds like a perfectly good Zombie theory to me. Zombies aren't too interested in the details. I use the word zombie because I don't consider a crystal that piggy backs living.
Just imagine a crystal and another crystal piggy backs on it and there you have it. Soon there will be monkeys and giraffes. Whatever you do, pay no attention to the zombie behind the curtain. Blinded by science.

BBC

Wow,

Is Dawkins the leading spokesperson for Origin of Species today? For a guy as smart as Dawkins, he sure did not seem very wise, when questioned by Stein.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

BBC, when someone interviews and asks questions with an agenda, the result often masks out a person's intelligent answers from a discussion.

(Ben Stein's response) WOW.

Morther

Dawkins said he got letters of people telling him how letting go of God freed them up.
Ben says, there are 8 billion people in the world, Mr.Dawkins. How many letters have you had?

Epicurus

@Morther what is your point?

there are only 2 billion christians. they are outnumbered by the muslims and hindus put together so which one is correct?

i dont think the numbers really matter when it comes to truth. at one point everyone thought the sun revolved the earth...and science forced them to change their religion.

calmdown

Without a crisp definition of intelligence, we really can't discuss the merits of intelligent design?

A crisp definition is offered for evolution. True or not, it's an attempt to begin a conversation on the merits of that definition. Darwin's work is criticized for having a loose definition of species, which is something that needed further investigation. What about intelligence? What specifically are the proposals for intelligent design? Were horses intelligently designed separately from zebras, or is that micro-evolution.

Whichever side you're on, it's hard not to deny that "the evolutionists" have put a firmer stake in the ground, and can be called out when evidence seems to agree or disagree. I'd love to know more about the intelligent design proposal than the fact that some people are giving it credibility.

I get the sense that this entire debate will wind down when we start to have a real understanding of what intelligence is, and the issues move to something less political and more testable.

Erik

Robbie: "For me, debating about whether God exists or not is like debating about whether a certain friend of mine exists or not. I have seen amazing things that cannot be explained intellectually or just by science!"
You have seen amazing things that YOU can't explain intellectually. I doubt that you have tried to endeavour into it scientifically. Do tell of such incidents if you please. Even if science couldn't explain it, that in no way suggest that "God did it".

Robbie:
February 8th, 2010 at 18:29
"I think that in order to believe in something, intellectual soundness isn’t enough, and must be followed by some sort of experience" So you're a hardcore empiricist aye? What do you think is the source of the energy of an atombomb? Surely you haven't seen the atoms splitting.. Do you not believe in them or did God kill all those people of Nagazaki and Hiroshima?

Morther

If I dug into my pocket and grabbed a handful of change and then threw it on the table and all of the coins landed on their edge, this is what I think of when I'm expected to beleive that by pouring Hydrogen into outer space if I wait long enough Madonna will start singing Like a Virgin.
I don't buy Mr. Piggybacking Crystal's version of the Universe. I think it's absurd. Way too much extrapolation going on.

Epicurus

@morther. your example is called a STRAWMAN because it is not what cosmology or evolution proposes. no one said elements with no attracting properties were just thrown out and created order.

you have NO IDEA what the science proposes so why do you pretend to. if you dont understand why not just be honest and say you dont understand and ask for an explanation?

if you would go watch a documentary here about the big bang or go read up about it im sure you will start to understand better.

whats absurd is the existence of a magical man that can do anything and exists forever...THAT is absurd.

Morther

I don’t buy Mr. Piggybacking Crystal’s version of the Universe. That's retarded as is your magical man.
Anyway keep on piggybacking.

Epicurus

@morther i dont know what you are even talking about, piggybacking crystals....you are just being silly. if you are going to discuss something, try to be an adult about it.

LET

Still waiting for some intelligent rebuttals from the "religees" (kudoos to Achems for the term) :S

So sorry Murdoch, but you are completely incomprehensible and impossible to follow (your line of argument that is...)

Morther

@morther i dont know what you are even talking about, piggybacking crystals

=======
I see, you must have fallen asleep at 33:50 in the documentary for a few minutes.

Morther

There is was, Piggybacking Crystals. YAWN. The guy had his chance to say anything he wanted and that was it. Sounds pretty dumb.
I think God is OBVIOUS. All I have to do is open my eyes. You on the other hand are on a dead end road. You can sell a lot of books and make up a bunch of words and dominate the thread and science class but in the end you're all dangerous people. You're headed for an atheist regime that kills without end.

Epicurus

@morther. that was just nonsense. there is a reason people like you live the lives they do.

i tried to explain it to you. and you choose not to listen because its too hard. just because you are an idiot doesnt mean science is wrong.

plus if you actually read what i put down you would see that the study of the crystals was shown false.

see science makes predictions tests them and honestly reports the findings. the man in this video was wrong. but that doesnt mean god is right.

why would an atheist regime kill without end? if you look to history it would be the religious regime that kills in the name of its god.

any atheist regime that you will point out (stalin, pol pot) did not kill people based on atheism, they killed based on politics.

morther you are not intelligent enough to hold conversations with. dont bother.

Morther

I have a lava lamp. You can see so much of life in it. Births, snuggling, independence, loners, wars, revolutions, the elderly, radicals, families, vacations, fear, happiness on and on, and this from just lifeless bubbles.

Achems Razor

How do you know that they are lifeless?
I have three lava lamps.
Maybe those bubbles are forming alternate Universes? as "Prof. Hawkings" said, "Universes could be formed by tiny bubbles"!

Erik

Mother: "I think God is OBVIOUS. All I have to do is open my eyes." All you can conclude from looking about you is that matter and energy is obvious, where do you see God?.

BBC

One question,

Dawkins did a show on the evolution of the eye. He said a researcher used a computer to do the calculations on the probability of the eye evolving. The computer came up with 250,000 generations. Dawkins stated that we did not need those calculations, but to trust that the research was done.

Science proves facts. Trusting unseen facts= religion

Just a thought ;)

Epicurus

@BBC do you want that program yourself? you can go download it. better yet you can write your own and be sure that nothing is messed up in it.

the eye has so much literature on its evolution it is actually one of the funniest things when creationists try to use the eye for their argument.

and im pretty sure you are misquoting Dawkins, or are quote mining out of context. if you show me where this video is i will take a look.

Morther

God is an axiom to me for Christ's sake!

All you can conclude from looking about you is that matter and energy is obvious, where do you see God?.

========
Everywhere.

Morther

How do you know that they are lifeless?
==========
They don't pay taxes.

Epicurus

so since fetus doesnt pay taxes, it isnt alive, therefore abortion is okay.

lol win for logic.

Achems Razor

Alternate means just that. Maybe in some alternate Universes their is no taxes!
Wish-full thinking I know, but you never know! (LOL)

Morther

so since fetus doesnt pay taxes, it isnt alive, therefore abortion is okay.

lol win for logic.
==========
the fetus is having its taxes paid through its umbilical cord

Epicurus

no sorry umbilical cords dont pay taxes, and no taxation without representation lol.

Murdoch

"any atheist regime that you will point out (stalin, pol pot) did not kill people based on atheism, they killed based on politics."

TRUE christians dont murder.

Epicurus

lol no true scotsman fallacy: No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of assertion to tautologically exclude the specific case or others like it.

there is no such thing as a true christian. every human being has their own interpretation of the bible every christian sees something in there differently. there are many verses in the bible where god commands christians to kill people, and murder is murder.

Murdoch

IF there is no such thing as a true christian there is no heaven for ANYONE. It is not always obvious that someone is a christian from the outward appearance and at the end of the day only God really knows all who are His, and obviously they themselves will know as well.
The 6th commandment says you are NOT to kill. i would say their are reasons where it is is permissable. but in terms of killing someone out of anger, greed or for absolutly no reason, then ANYONE will know that that is wrong. It could be permissable for a christian to kill in time of war but i am unaware of how many people on the front line are christians, possibly more common during WW1 & 2, and abortion may be right in the case where the MOTHERS life is in serious danger, their may be other senarious but these ones stick out clearly.
Usually christians can tell if they are speaking to someone else if that other person is a christian or not. the bible says that you can tell people are christians by what they do. But if u wanna be a christian then you dont follow other christians you follow jesus, and if u wanna cricize christians then their not perfect but jesus is and u cant fault Him. If you do then the truth is not in you in the first place.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

"IF there is no such thing as a true christian there is no heaven for ANYONE"

Only really true thing you have said so far. There is no heaven for anyone, even by what the bible says. There are 7 things you must do in order to be join the kingdom in heaven, if you own a computer you have already failed.

"The 6th commandment says you are NOT to kill. i would say their are reasons where it is is permissable. but in terms of killing someone out of anger, greed or for absolutly no reason, then ANYONE will know that that is wrong."

Greed is basically the only reason behind much of the religious killings. Greed and Hatred. No war was ever started because "atheism", but there are hundreds that were started because of religion.

"and abortion may be right in the case where the MOTHERS life is in serious danger, their may be other senarious but these ones stick out clearly."

Psalm 139:16 says that god has scheduled the beggining and end of every single life. Therefore if you believe your own book, every abortion is gods plan. The doctors are only following gods plan. Every murder falls under that line as well. Every death, every murder, every rape, every bad thing that happens to every person is individually scheduled by God.

Nice job at your epic fail.

Vance MacLaren, PhD

This program is garbage, intelligent design is garbage, and a republican apologist like Ben Stein pretending to be anything more than that is garbage. Ignorance is not bliss.

Morther

Got to love how this program pisses off the clueless. Intelligent design is obvious. But your genius, Mr. Piggybacking Crystals thinks he's got it all figured out. lol

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

How quickly you drop to meaningless statements. Make an argument or bugger off.

I am not "clueless" in fact I have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of documents, movies, documentarys, scientists, evidence, data, statistics, and PROOFS to support my claims.

However your bold statement "Intelligent design is obvious" has no backing. You have yet to bring one intelligent statement to the table, which is sad because there are actually a fair few half decent intelligent design arguments and you've skipped them all in favor of the same brainwashing crap your parents shoved down your throat.

Either grow a pair and bring a real argument; stop the childish "Mr. Piggybacking" crap and act like an adult or find somewhere else to troll.

Morther

If two proximate hydrothermal vents spewed different chemistries such that one chemistry in its conjuction with the other creates, in combination with the environment, a "to and fro" chemical migration pattern. The chemistries exchange places, via some step by step chemical reaction, what we have here is a basic,, animal- prey animal, relationship that alternates back and forth. The chemicals consume themselves. So far this is mindless.
To this we expect that such a process would have by-products. These by-products over time, interfere with the process. They interfere with it only in that they alter the original environment. We now have two exchanges going on. The original and the newly migrating impeded one.
Now this co-mingling of chemistries forms another by-product that is unique. This carries on for many years. then
This process gets encapsulated. A scenario where lava coats a large hunk of this process going on. The lava would burn the chemistry on the surface but deeper into the substrate the reaction would become more active.
The company of exchanging chemical processes in a closed system would now consume itself with permutative migrations. At some point the intermingling paths of the different chemistries would form strands as molecular highways to facilitate migration patterns. These patterns would certainly be strange attractors.
This is DNA. What we have so far is a DNA factory.
It's from this incubator that some strands take on autonomy. The molecular highway becomes individual molecular trams.
All mindless.
May the best tram win.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Can't argue with you there Morther, you are indeed mindless.

Morther

Can’t argue with you there Morther, you are indeed mindless.
=====
I thought so.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Heh, You don't even know when your being mocked. Reread that. I hate to have to point it out but I can't let you think I actually agree with your stupidity.

Morther

It is now widely agreed that at the origin of life there was not the current DNA/(RNA)/protein system for gene information on one hand and catalysis, regulation, and structural function on the other.
============
I hear where you're coming from and yet the momentum of my thinking carries me on.
It's difficult to think of anything deeper than how life would begin on its own.
That was the earliest version of DNA I could theorize. It was only meant to be a conduit at first. The dismantling of the conduit strange attractor into separate autonomous sections would come after some time. The 'highway' would begin to have different sections and then the sections would take on their own journeys.
Still this doesn't explain why protiens get involved unless there is a competition among the 'trams'. If they attacked each other's chemistry then a "healing" process might begin with the wounded tram. Healing being the original motivation of catalysis.
The cell wall would serve the purpose of protection from attack but at the same time ostracize the inner chemistry. From here the enclosed tram would have to generate molecular segments capable of retrieving sustenance.

Father john

It's crazy that people even debate this stuff. If god is for real, how come he's a white dude? That floats in the sky? How come my neice grew from an embryo into a toddler that talks back to me? How come god isn't an insect? There are millions more of those out there then people. How come he's not a grain of sand? How come he's a dude. Why not a chick? Why not a black guy? Why not a super sperm that fly's around reading and fullfilling our dreams. the girl who based her argument against evolution on the fact her husband is a math wiz, seems so far fetched. He should try going to an art class. Not at a university level. Start out in grade 4. Add a little story to your imagination and see where it takes you.

Morther

Ben Stein, an absolutely brilliant mind, creates a documentary that will have legs for many years to come. Easliy the best documentary on the "___'s" of this country secretly trying to establish their pipe dream of a Godless world. They will die out but it's obvious how hundreds of publications are forcing this perspective.
This Godless perspective is clearly retarded. Piggybacking Crystals is the best the "___'s" can come up with.

Epicurus

@morther.

With few exceptions, all known forms of life on our planet rely on the same genetic code to specify the amino acid composition of proteins. Although different hypotheses abound, just how individual amino acids were assigned to specific three-letter combinations or codons during the evolution of the genetic code is still subject to speculation.
Taking their hints from relics of this evolution left behind in modern cells, researchers at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies concluded that after only two waves of "matching" and some last minute fiddling, all 20 commonly used amino acids were firmly linked with their respective codons, setting the stage for the emergence of proteins with unique, defined sequences and properties.

Their findings, which will be published in next week's online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, provide the first in vivo data shedding light on the origin and evolution of the genetic code.

"Although different algorithms, or codes, were likely tested during a long period of chemical evolution, the modern code proved so robust that, once it was established, it gave birth to the entire tree of life," says the study's lead author Lei Wang, Ph.D., an assistant professor in the Chemical Biology and Proteomics Laboratory.

"But the universality of the code makes it very hard for researchers to study its formation since there are no organisms using a primitive or intermediate genetic code that we could analyze for comparison," he explains.

Cells provide a dazzling variety of functions that cover all of our body's needs, yet they make do with a very limited number of molecular building blocks. With few exceptions, all known forms of life use the same common 20 amino acids -- and only those 20 -- to keep alive organisms as diverse as humans, earthworms, tiny daisies, and giant sequoias.

Each of the 20 amino acids is matched to its own carrier molecule known as transfer RNA (tRNA). During protein synthesis, which is coordinated by so-called ribosomes, amino acids are brought out one by one by their respective tRNAs and inserted in the growing protein chain according to the instructions spelled out in the universal language of life -- the genetic code. The code is "read" with the help of anticodons embedded in each tRNA, which pair up with their codon-counterparts.

Several hypotheses have been put forward to explain why codons are selectively assigned to specific amino acids. "One of the theories, the stereochemical hypothesis, gained some traction when researchers could show that short codon- or anticodon-containing polynucleotide molecules like to interact with their respective amino acids," says graduate student and first author David B. F. Johnson.

If chemical or physical interactions between amino acids and nucleotide indeed drove the formation of the genetic code, Johnson reasoned, then he should be able to find relics of this mutual affinity in modern cells. He zoomed in on ribosomes, large complexes consisting of some 50 proteins interacting closely with ribosomal RNAs.

"Also, the ribosome emerged from an early evolutionary stage of life to help with the translation of the genetic code before the last universal common ancestor," explains Wang, "and therefore is more likely to serve as a molecular fossil that preserved biological evidence."

When Wang and Johnson probed bacterial ribosomes for imprints of the genetic code, they found evidence that direct interactions between amino acids and nucleotide triplet anticodons helped establish matching pairs. "We now believe that the genetic code was established in two different stages," says Johnson.

Their data does not shed much light on the early code, consisting of prebiotically available amino acids -- the kind generated in Stanley Miller's famous "zap"-experiment. But once some primitive translational mechanism had been established, new amino acids were added to the mix and started infiltrating the genetic code based on specific amino acid/anticodon interactions.

"We found evidence that a few amino acids were reassigned to a different codon but once the code was in place it took over," says Johnson. "It might not have been the best possible solution but the only one that was viable at the time."

The work was supported in part by the Searle Scholar Program, the Beckman Young Investigator Program and the National Institutes of Health Director's New Innovator Award.

Journal Reference:

David B. F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1000704107

Ben Stein has created a documentary that has already faded from the limelight and is sent to the sale bin at walmart for all the fat stupid christians to buy and force on their children.

morther is completely wrong about the piggy backing crystals. all he has done is latched onto a disproven theory that science says is most likely false.

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie man can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from you soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree....yea thats much more logical than the science behind abiogenesis right?

lol come on morther you know and i know you lack the education to be making the claims you are making. try to be honest with not only me and everyone here but also yourself.

Murdoch

You know the bible is hard to believe, But God CANNOT be limited to the same level as a human, or else he wouldnt be God. The faith does seem hard to take in as believable but, there is evidence out there for it, and i would rather believe that the God of the bible is the saem God who made this world and keeps it in orbit than waiting for some scientists to come up with an answer. how long will it take, they make find after find breaking it all down, when the answer is God made this world he made life he made all the netrons protons and everything else it didnt happen by chance, oh no God did it. why wait any longer go to the bible and find the answer to how life and this world came into existence, it even tells us in the very first verse of the very first chapter. In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth, yes a lot of what went into that vreating scientits are discovering which should make us wonder even more just how great and powerfull God is.

Luke Wilson

Richard Dawkins showed his true colours here. Yah so life on this planet could have come about due to aliens???? What the HELL!! This guy is more crazy than I thought. His attacks against God were irrational and to the point of almost being personal - almost makes you wonder what vendetta he has against the idea of a God. I also think anyone that thinks there isnt a co-ordinated effort into stomping out ideas that go against established scientific views is just delusional. This documentary is not only about the war against intelligent design it is about freedom of the scientific process to follow evidence down to its core root, it doesnt matter what the root is, if it is God so be it, why hunt this people down. Why suppress them?? I am by no means a christian or a religious person but hell if God made everything so be it... The day when to be religious is to be an enemy of mankind is the day when this world will come to an abrupt stop, why? Because we would have lost a fundamental human right: The Freedom Of Worship and a new nazi era will role in.

I personally think its only a matter of time before Charles Darwin is found out. Why else would such low-handed tactics be used unless his theory was somehow flawed...

Epicurus

@Luke, why do you also have to display TYPICAL religious ignorance.

Dawkins stated in that interview that you are refering to, that aliens could have seeded life on this planet but those aliens would have to have evolved and so did we. he didnt say that it happened. just that it is MORE LIKELY THAN GOD.

yes there is a concentrated effort for getting rid of superstitious belief and nonsense in science. of course there is. thinking intelligent design is science is like thinking storks bring babies is reproductive science. or how about next to chemistry we teach alchemy? or maybe next to astronomy we teach some astrology?

evolution is a fact get it through your brain.

what low handed tactics are being used and darwin has already been shown to be correct not one person with an education in biology would claim evolution is false.

stay in school.

Luke Wilson

@ Epicurus: Ok, fair points. Just to clarify I did not say God made the universe. I just said that these scientists are attempting to come up with an alternative creationist theory and for there problems they are getting fired, mistreated and ridiculed just like you are doing right now. What authority do you have to say what is and what isnt science? Of all the interviews I saw in this documentary I wouldnt say any of the supporters of ID came across as not being scientific. Just because you dont agree with there theory doesnt mean they should be treated how they are currently being treated. Freedom is the word and freedom is the ideal that should be upheald.

Richard Darwkins and all the other evolusionists couldnt answer all the questions about life, an example of one question asked for which no answer was given is - where did the 1st cell come from??. I doubt anyone here not even me or you epicurus knows exactly what this theory is because the compaign against it has been that effective.. they try and discredit it by attaching it to religion and creationism and God and all that.. Evolution is not a FACT like dawkins stated. Accept that for the truth and if you deny it you yourself are not a rational person but instead a delusional one as it is a scientific theory and not a fact and as per the definition could be wrong.

SexMoneyMonkey

To clarify what Epicurus said. Aliens could have created life on earth but their life would have had to come about by natural means (or at least the life of the Aliens that created them and so on and so forth). There has to have been a natural start to the series of events that lead to us being created.

As for evidence. There is no evidence of God, there are no testable predictions made by their being a God so there's nothing to and therefore no science. Remember the cycle observe->hypothesis->test->observe (simplified). Nothing observed points at a god and there's no testable hypothesis.

That doesn't mean god for sure doesn't exist. Just that there's no way to make a scientific theory around it.

SexMoneyMonkey

@Luke Wilson

Creationist theories are bad science as I stated before.

And there are no facts in science, just theories. And "could be wrong" is a joke. Everything could be wrong. You being able to read could be wrong, you could just be so deluded that you think you can read... In fact, you could be in a coma.

The theory of evolution, though, is treated as fact. As there is a lot of evidence to support it. It's about as much of a fact as the theory of gravity. Theory means that it's been tested and not found false, how long have they been testing it? Since Darwin came out with it. I think at this point, though it'll probably be modified, we can say it's a pretty good idea of what's true.

As for Abiogenesis, a completely different field, there are constantly looking into it and nearing the answer I'm sure.

Luke Wilson

@SexMoneyMonkey I completely agree with what you are saying. I dont think ID scientists start by saying oh ok, right lets take God as a given and come up with a theory to prove he exists!! No to the contrary, they started out as normal scientists who through there work discovered that charles darwins theory as it stands right now is not sufficient to explain nature and the natural process of life. They also put excellent scientific arguements for why this is the case. None of them mentioned God! Its dawkins and his minions who try and bring God into the equation to discredit other ppls work. What would science become when the natural process of inquiry is undermined?? Alot of scientists had to fight this in the past for lots of other different theories, thank God for humanity they never gave up and i shouldnt think this ID ppl will either. They can fire them, they can refuse to give them research money but all this does is only delay the inevitable...

Luke Wilson

The inevitable being not Intelligent design prevailing but rather Charles Darwin and his theory falling...

Joe_nyc

Luke

I see your point that ID should be given same treatment as any other scientific theory without prejudice. But don't you also realize ID only came about to challenge Darwin's evolution. And that its hidden agenda is to promote religion based science? And of course, ID's ultimate goal is to bring religion to public school. It's not just academia who are furious about these. Parents too. If ID is taught to my son I would pull him out immediately. Of course, after some kicking and cussins.

young

Intelligent Design doesn't make sense scientifically. That's why I don't support it. Just throwing that out there.

Joe_nyc

Sarah Palin believes in Intelligent Design. She can also see Russia from her bedroom window.

Luke Wilson

Haha, who knows maybe she can?? Yah Joe_nyc I also agree that as of yet it shouldnt be taught at school as maybe its not as of yet a thorough rigour scientific theory that has amased a body of evidence and experiments to substanciate it but given time and research who knows maybe one day it could become one and furthermore maybe it could further our understanding of life... At some point dont you agree that science has to merge with philosophy maybe even religion to answer the most fundamental yet easiest questions there are. eg. What caused the big bang to happen? Why did it happen? Where did the first cell come from? Why does the universe have to exist? Why do you have to exist? I mean this are serious questions that need to be answered one day somehow and I doubt todays science is equipped to answer them. The only way it'll ever get to a stage where it can answer them is if scientists are allowed to pursue there work obviously within certain boundaries eg ethical boundaries and such, but from what I can see in this documentary, the ID people are not only not being allowed to educate others about there ideas they are also not being allowed to research and improve there ideas by not being given research money... What harm would come by allowing these people to do there research? No animal will die, No person will die!! So whats the big problem???

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Luke

Your comment about it being science first then ID is incorrect. There was a whole legal debate about bringing "of pandas and people" as a school book into the system that was blocked after they found previous drafts that said creationism instead of ID in every single instance. Intelligent Design was created as a cover for creationism.

Theres a video here on TDF, shouldnt be hard to find it.

Joe_nyc

Luke

I concur wholeheartedly with "that science has to merge with philosophy". But lets leave ID in Ted Haggard's closet. ;)

As for your philosophical questions I, too, and along wiht a lot of people here who wouldn't admit it have the same dizzying questions.

When you have time try some quantum mechanic docs. It will make ID look like a child's play.....
"Queerer than we can suppose" - Hildane(one of Dawkins favourite quote)

Achems Razor

@ Joe_nyc:

Actually am also perusing some "Immanuel Kant" philosophy, in opposition to the Empiricists, on these docs. who think that the mind is a blank slate, or a "Tabula rasa"

(LOL) be careful how you throw Quantum around though, you might get attacked by some commenters. ha, ha.

young

@Luke

They are allowed to educate others, just not with speculation inside the public school system.

They are allowed to do research. Federal funded research? No. Why not? Whats the harm? The harm is it takes valuable resources from real research.

ID is equivalent to Karma. It's an explanation that seems to make sense but is actually nothing but a bunch of superstitious BS.

Why is it BS? Well because to lie one must know the truth, to BS one doesn't care to know the truth.

Achems Razor

Also forgot to mention, what Dawkins was referring to on this doc when he was talking to Stein. is "Panspermia"

Epicurus

@Luke

watch the documentary on this site called "intelligent design on trial" and you will see ID try to defend itself in court against evolution and you will see why not only is it bad science, but it has been shown false already, and finally its main purpose is to get religion into public school.

there is no effort in science to smash out other ideas. in fact any scientist that could show evolution false would be given a noble prize and have billions of dollars of grant money thrown at him. the people studying evolution are not making millions of dollars off of it, there is no conspiracy to keep it going. the facts are what support it.

to ask an evolutionary biologist where the first cell came from is like asking a geologist what chemicals make LSD. the formation of the first cell is abiogenesis and is a whole different field of study than evolution.

AND just because someone cant answer these loaded questions that themselves are fallacious, doesnt mean evolution is correct and god dun did it.

Luke Wilson

Well I'd like to thank everyone that decided to post a reply to my post. I'll look into the documentary you suggested Epicurus. I try so very hard to not go near anything that Richard Dawkins has made or touched but I suppose one has to look at both sides of the argument. I personally dont know the motives behind the pioneers of the intelligent design people, you guys seem to know way more about them. Does anyone here agree with what Stein said about evolution being used to de-value life?? I thought the link he made between darwinism and nazis/eugenics was very convincing.. Shouldnt this provide ground for concern about this theory or am I letting my own personal emotions dictate my arguments against evolution?

Quite interesting that I have just finished watching a Documentary here on TDF called 'What we still dont know' and on the 3rd one, they explained how delicate the universe is, infact it is soooo delicate that inorder for there not to be an intelligent designer, physists had to invent the multi-verse in which there are other countless universes where the mistakes that didnt occur in this one have occured eg gravity or the cosmological constant which has to be exactly precise to 120 decimal places(which you'll have a hard time explaining the chances of that happening randmly if there were just 1 universe) are allowed to take different numerical values. So our universe is one of many which all these factors come together in the right way to make life. However, they also hypothesised that since there are essentially an infinite number of universes then on atleast one there has to be a civilization almost infinitelly intelligent that could theoretically make a computer simulation in which they simulated universes and we could be in one of this simulations so by trying to avoid the notion of an intelligent designer they come back full circle where they end up confronting this possibilty of there possibly being an intelligence behind out existance...

Luke Wilson

Excuse the bad grammar and spelling.... am not shakespear.

Epicurus

oh wow Luke. if you were convinced by the eugenics/nazi argument best then i see i have lots of work to do.

lets say i put forth the argument that Newtons theory of gravity allows people to make artillery weapons and bombs? what if i said that Louis Pasteur's work on germ theory lead to germ warfare what would you say?

just because a scientific discovery is used for ill will doesnt mean that it is false. you are CERTAINLY allowing emotion to dictate your views and that is EXACTLY what Ben Stein was going for. the appeal to emotion. in fact what if i posted some quotes from Hitler:

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

so...hitler believed in god...and so does osama bin laden, and so did Napoleon and so on and so on....

now here is something VERY IMPORTANT. what Hitler was doing was NOT evolution. eugenics uses the knowledge that we have of genetics to state that by breeding certain people and taking certain people out of the gene pool we create more advanced humans.

evolution is a slow gradual process that is selected for by forces of nature. when humans start selecting for their own preference that is NOT natural selection.

you dont have to explain things happening by random chance. you wouldnt say that putting water in the freezer makes ice by random chance...no you understand that it couldnt be any other way based on physics.

also the temperatures and everything could be different but WE wouldnt be here.....so what? we are not the pinnacle of the big bang. we are a by-product and there is an amazing amount of time and space that we dont occupy.

I became much more appreciative of my life, and nature in general once I accepted that their was no god. Everything seems much more beautiful to me now and I value my friends, family and myself much more. When I see a video game i don't think a man flying around in it is impressive, because the one who developed that game could pretty much make that man do whatever he wanted. If this is the best god can do then I would be disappointed in him, but if it happened how science explains then I think it's the most remarkable thing. Our fragile mortality makes me appreciate the time I have here.

On the delicate universe I offer you this:

If life is not permitted to happen it won't happen. Things only seem perfect because that's how they must be for our species to exist in the first place. If the big bang happened billions of years ago and we've only been around for a few hundred thousand then that should tell you that we literally won a cosmic lottery. It just took a few billion years for it to pick our numbers.

Joe_nyc

Luke- hell with grammer that was an excellent post.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Wow... there sure are a LOT of unemployed smart people spending their precious time, in the middle of a Wednesday during daylight hours, commenting here @ TDF. Fellow philosophers: Don't poo-poo the idea of employment @ WalMart or an indian casino. I've heard neither is so bad.

I have it on good Authority that The World's creatures exist due to a divine combination of BOTH Evolution AND Intelligent Design AND Creation. The entire soap bubble is divine creation; note, divine with a little "d". And, there IS a God, but God takes a completely different form than what the religulous believe, i.e., God is not some hairy ol' robed white man hanging out in a marshmallow cloudy gated community paradise.

young

This was just a complete waste of time. i really did start it with an open mind. Garbage man. The whole thing collapses on itself.

jodee

who does this guy believes he is, god,I see some jusyifiable law suite here,my way or the highway,since when any group ownes the pursuite of scientific knowledge and can a pose those who want to follow a different trail ,and wants to forced feed the view to the masses,i dont like compulsion in any form pursuite of knowledge should be open and free not one sided there know different then some religious cult forcing only there belief,people have the right to belive or disbelive not one or the other,what are they afraid of ,were did iteligents come from if not by design,if were born with all our strenght in weaknesses in diverse forms written in our dna from the beginning,it that out of nothing male and female he created us,looks like a plan

jodee

hitler was a psycopath.how easily people can be decieved by them. he wasnt a chritian if he dint love his enemy.

Epicurus

@jodee, if someone wants to claim alchemy or astrology is science they will be treated with the same treatment. being a scientist and claiming creationism, is just like trying to say storks bring babies. it is plain wrong and there is no room for lies and religious beliefs in academia.

intelligence comes from adaptations of a species survival. humans have no natural means of defense or hunting...our natural defense and offense is our large brain and intelligence.

just more people (jodee) commenting on facts as though this were a make believe fairy tale world where everyone is free to believe whatever they want and that makes it true.

wake up, this isnt kindergarten. you cant believe anything you want. some things just arent true. creationism for one.

lol religious people...this is what you believe.

a magical being exists for eternity, one day he decides to make EVERYTHING out of NOTHING. yet he didnt do so well so he has to flood the earth and kill everything and try again....yet he seems to have failed once again...so he sends himself down to sacrifice himself to himself for the mistakes he himself made.

THAT is how absolutely silly you all are.

Achems Razor

Yes, and you cannot send a memo, or even contact telephonically, you must contact telepathically, to pay your allegiance, or you will be doomed! doomed I say!

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@jodee

No one is stopping intelligent design from doing their own research or making their own points, its just that the intelligent world who like to live by facts and reason rather than fairy tales and corruption refuse to call it science. Its not science, if it cant be tested ITS NOT SCIENCE!!!!!.

God Doesn't Exist! In any which way shape or form, he doesn't exist. There are thousands of flaws in the bible, I wont bother listing them because bible thumpers are too arrogant and self delusional to ever pay attention.

And just so you know, YOUR not a real christian either unless you have sold everything and gone into poverty (among several other completely ridiculous demand that your god places on you); which I am guessing you have not done if you can post here.

Murdoch

1. Can someone give me real, hard, concrete evidence that this world was NOT created. Someone on here said VERY clearly that such a notion is true. So there is obviously evidence out there to support this(if not then this person is been lied to or he never checked out the supposed facts) anyway can you please pass the info on to me, it shouldnt be too hard.

2. I dont understand how someone who doesnt believe in jesus can then USE the bible to quote from when they dont believe it is true and also how can someone who is not a christian teach someone FROM the bible who is a christian.

3. Why is the bible such a popular book.

4. What would happen to a country that was regarded as christian if it turned its back on god and the bible. hhhmmmm - modern day britain. the reason britain is such a pathetic place to live is becasue it has turned its back on God. But an unbeliever wont believe that though. if you are an unbeliever and you are open minded then surely looking at the situation this is AT LEAST one possability.

subtle subtle subtle, the devil is so good at decieving people.

Why are people from muslim backgrounds/upbringing coming to faith in jesus, cause they have seen the light, they know that he is the ONLY saviour of the world. These ex-muslims are threatened with death soon as they become christians. someone answer me why that is somehow ok? and at the same time can you answer me why these people are so willing to give their lives for jesus, because he is real folks and without jesus we are doomed, life is actually very simple and understandable if you know and believe the scriptures. The Lord reigns let the earth be glad.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@ Murdoch

1) There is no proof that the universe wasn't created. There is a ton of a proof that EARTH itself wasn't "created", at least not by anything divine. Scientists don't know yet what started the universe, but we will eventually. However, this doesn't help your point at all either as you have absolutely no proof, tests, information etc to stand by a CREATED universe other then the lack of proof otherwise.

2) Easy, because the number 1 proof against the ridiculousness of the christian religion IS THE BIBLE. If you want to disprove something you need to use that thing to disprove it. If you believe that a monster lives under your bed, guess what? We look under the bed. If you believe the bible is the word of god and proves everything, then we look at the bible to check if its true.

3) Because people want the easy way out. They want to believe that someone is watching out for them they want false hope and divine protection. They want to be able to say "well its gods plan" when its not. they don't want to face the real word because the real world is harsh and sometimes unbelievable. Religion is a crutch for those unable to face reality.

4) UK is one of the strongest growing countries in the world right now and one of the best places to live. Not sure exactly where you got your information but its very much wrong. Also, the united states was not founded on christian morals, all the god crap that shows up on our money and documents showed up much much later. Most of the founders were atheists, do some research before you make bold claims.

Your last paragraph is a bunch of stupidity and nonsense so I am just going to skip it.

Achems Razor

And you know this do you? How? telepathically???

Will

Murdoch;

1. Fossils delineating a clear line of evolution and carbon dating.

2. Because Christians are notoriously ignorant of the full content of the bible, they seem to pick and choose the ones they like depending entirely on their specific proclivities and on the situation at hand.

3. Because it's old, and because the world is full of myopes and because it's only been permissible to be an atheist for a couple hundred years.

4. I don't know, ask someone from Sweden, or Switzerland or the Netherlands. Yah, it totally sucks to live there... What awful places those are to live in.

Believe whatever you want to believe, but you don't get to treat those that don't believe what you do as idiots and then turn around and take umbrage when it's done to you.

Murdoch

i know it, im holding onto it and one day we will see if i am right, or that God is right. The Bible and the work of the Holy spirit in the lives of Jesus followers are the evidence.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

You don't KNOW anything, you BELIEVE it to be true. also if your wrong, you have wasted your entire life believing something completely false. Good luck with that.

Also you still have no evidence. There have been thousands of religions with books and followers, and you don't believe in them. Belief is NOT evidence.

Grow up.

Murdoch

wow i feel so loved, you care for me so much.
you dont want me to believe what i believe, are u afraid my belief is harming me.
we all make choices every day, ive made mine you make yours, why u so worried about what i believe, can you tell me the danger/harm i may be in?
is my belief a problem to you.
is it because i am so confident in what i believe that is bothering you or the belief itself? if the latter, what do you know of what i believe and if the former why u so strong words.
u want evidence proof, well i believe what the bible teaches, that God made this world, that he made humans special to all the rest of creation and he gave them free will, the right to choose. this world was perfect then man and god lived in harmony, man used his free will to diobey what god had told him not to do and that one error (sin) was a disobedience to the command of the creater, the one who gave man life and everything else and as God is perfect the penalty is just, death is now entered into the world and it is NOT gods fault we chose it, today we live in a world polluted by sin, including our hearts, which is why we do wrong things and IMO why we dont want to believe in God. but for those who seek him they will find him and in the sacrifice that jesus made for us in dieing for us and rising on the third day and being lifted to heaven he showed his love in that if we believe in jesus we will be saved form the eternal death that awaits ALL who dont believe in Jesus, my futture is in heaven i know this, many christian in other parts of the world are being murdered for that fact i know jesus will come again and take to heaven all who trully love him. thats a little summary of what i believe and you can wait until the judgement day when EVERYONE will believe or seek jesus for yourself before it is too late. persecution wont change anything God is in control, the devil doesnt like it but he is a defeated foe although some people wont believe if it was staring them in the face. you got to want it first.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

First of all, I care very little about you as a person. I care about myself and my family and friends. Religious people who obtain power abuse it and force religious beliefs onto the world. This video were discussing is a prime example. ID is a BAD THING. It trys to make science less valuable and its dangerous to all human development.

If we just blindly followed the belief in god then we would never of obtained the scientific advancements we have now.

Again you try and offer evidence with YOUR BELIEFS, and again I say BELIEF IS NOT EVIDENCE!. Also, read your own paragraph a few times and you can find sevearl flaws.

God the perfect all might creator made man to live in harmony with him. Man choose to do sin. God being perfect and omniscient who planned their entire life and death scheme, should be in full knowledge of what man will do. He should of KNOWN they would choose sin.

If you KNOW something bad will happen when you do an action that makes you pretty screwed up. You say god is perfect about 15 times, yet god fails miserably in the bible about 100x. He fails in your own paragraph at least 4 times.

You are an epic failure on this world.

Epicurus

1. Can someone give me real, hard, concrete evidence that this world was NOT created. Someone on here said VERY clearly that such a notion is true. So there is obviously evidence out there to support this(if not then this person is been lied to or he never checked out the supposed facts) anyway can you please pass the info on to me, it shouldnt be too hard.

anything that would be created would appear as if it were created more so than it occurring by natural forces. we also wouldnt be able to show on outside models how it could have come about by natural forces. there is no need to invoke a being that created it. when you do that you have abandoned your logic for an easy answer and dismissed any logic being placed on that being (ie. where did it come from how does it exist)

can you show me evidence that this universe is not the matrix? i dont believe it is but using your logic the assumption should be valid.

2. I dont understand how someone who doesnt believe in jesus can then USE the bible to quote from when they dont believe it is true and also how can someone who is not a christian teach someone FROM the bible who is a christian.

the reason an atheist would quote from the bible is to show the inaccuracies or the inconsistencies that the other person uses to formulate their argument. if their poits can be used against them they clearly are arbitrary. and im sure i could quote the bible better than most christians (probably including you) and im not a christian. hell i could quote the quran and bhagavad gita better than most of those faiths.

on a side note, why would a christian with no education and understanding of biology, evolution or science in general think their BELIEFS are more accurate than the facts?

3. Why is the bible such a popular book.

because it claims if you dont like it you will be tortured in hell for eternity scaring many stupid people into believing it thus forcing their children to believe it creating a cycle of mental abuse that exists to this day.

how come the quran is so popular? how come lord of the rings and harry potter are so popular?

popularity doesnt = truth.

4. What would happen to a country that was regarded as christian if it turned its back on god and the bible. hhhmmmm – modern day britain. the reason britain is such a pathetic place to live is because it has turned its back on God. But an unbeliever wont believe that though. if you are an unbeliever and you are open minded then surely looking at the situation this is AT LEAST one possibility.

if one looks at the standards that make a country great (safety, cleanliness, education, health, civil liberties) one will realize that the secular countries like Norway, Sweden, Britain, Canada, etc all excel over any strictly theistic country and even the secular united states that pretends its theistic.

and i have met 10 times the amount of christians who converted to islam or judaism or atheism than i have met any of those people changing to christianity. so you are completely wrong in that respect.

actually stats show that christianity to be losing popularity while atheism and agnosticism is gaining popularity...if you want to argue ad populum.

nice try though Murdoch, thanks for coming out and trying to play with the adults.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Arrg Epicurus, mine is still awaiting moderation :(

http://www.krashbox.com HaTe_MaChInE

I like Beck.

Epicurus

@beck, thats what you get for using swear words or posting links :P lol

Beck + Hate_Machine = Bromance

http://www.krashbox.com HaTe_MaChInE

@Epicurus - Dont worry Epicurus i still love you too.

Achems Razor

Heaven and Hell?? well there is a "Moderation Heaven", have been their many times!!

Murdoch

It doesnt affect me what other people do or say to me. I am just saying what i believe to be true, the bible i read says that i can go to heaven if i believe in jesus, but its not just a case of well i will just believe it cause i want to and that makes me eligible to its promises, its much more deeper than that, a christian is someone who has had there relationship with God restored. its a way of live its a relationship with god it effects every area of my live it is tangible it is REAL. I believe the bible is true and it is the truth and that THAT truth will set you FREE. free worrying about ALL the the things in life that somehow dont make sense or are not understood, ie instead of not able to know how this world came into being God says in the bible He made it, big question solved. i could go on, if everyone in the whole world was to live according to the bible this world would be a beter place, lets try it out shall we what are we gonna . we all choose how we want to live i choose this way, to me it is logical and amazing, and heaven is my eternal destination and home, and jesus is the only way to get there. if i am wrong then i am a fool but if not then i have something which is greater than the cure for cancer, the cure for something even worse, SIN. i am not stupid i didnt have to choose this way but it is so clear and real that Gods love to me is far beyond the love in this world.

Charles B.

Murdoch: You said that quite well. I couldn't have said it better myself. Keep your head up as you are no "fool" indeed and I'll meet you someday on the otherside in Heaven, thanks to Jesus' love and sacrifice for our sins. :-)

Peace!

Charles B.

stace

more answers to the 4 questions.

1. nobody disputes this world was created....how it was created - well, the burdon of proof lies with those who run on blind faith demanding everyone else is wrong till they prove otherwise. that, and attempting to argue with a person over the planet being more than 4000 years old - it's....well......it's like arguing with a 4 year old on christmas eve that santa isn't real.

^^^god, even the vatican scientific team is embarrased by this^^^^

2. this is easy - someone without faith can see the thing for what it is.

3. the bible is a popular book because the church and it's members are the ones doing all the buying, then dumping them EVERYWHERE *for free* and have been doing so the last x hundred years.

4. take a look at the list of the best places to live in the world (it's published every year). "odd" as it is, they're all godless - infact, the more god fearing one gets, the further down the list it goes....

and no, it isn't the devil. in these places, money isn't the bottom line.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Murdoch and Charles

Ah good, i'm glad both of you guys are going to heaven! Now you guys just need to follow about 700 ancient laws (including animal sacrifice and eating of sheep hearts) and sell everything you have and go into poverty. Seeing as those are 2 of the requirements in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (both mentioned several times in the bible) I guess you wont be trolling TDF anymore.

Best of luck to you guys, let me know how being homeless and bloody sheep covered goes.

young

If we are to allow ID and creationism to be taught in school then should we also allow a history teacher to teach the holocaust never happened?

Achems Razor

Charles:

since Hell is in a 14 klm. hole in Siberia, where would heaven be?

Epicurus

@Murdoch AND Charles

It doesnt affect me what other people do or say to me. I am just saying what i believe to be true, the Quran i read says that i can go to heaven if i believe in Mohammad, but its not just a case of well i will just believe it cause i want to and that makes me eligible to its promises, its much more deeper than that, a Muslim is someone who has had there relationship with Allah restored. its a way of life, its a relationship with Allah, it effects every area of my life, it is tangible it is REAL. I believe the Quran is true and it is the truth and that THAT truth will set you FREE. free worrying about ALL the the things in life that somehow dont make sense or are not understood, ie instead of not able to know how this world came into being Allah says in the Quran He made it, big question solved. i could go on, if everyone in the whole world was to live according to the Quran this world would be a better place, lets try it out shall we what are we gonna lose. we all choose how we want to live i choose this way, to me it is logical and amazing, and heaven is my eternal destination and home, and Mohammad is the only way to get there. if i am wrong then i am a fool but if not then i have something which is greater than the cure for cancer, the cure for something even worse, SIN. i am not stupid i didnt have to choose this way but it is so clear and real that Allah's love to me is far beyond the love in this world.

do you guys see what i did there? i took your whole post and replaced Jesus with Mohammad, Bible with Quran, and God with Allah....does the post make less sense? more sense? or just as much sense?

my point is to show that you didnt give any reason or evidence for your beliefs. you just spouted a bunch of noise like a preacher. now until you have something clever and useful to say, you should probably take a break.

Murdoch

This world was perfect one day and because of sin it became imperfect, where every kind of wrong happens, therefore christianity wont rise to the top in such an environment, i mean the Son of God was killed by the people he came to save. Remember God is HIGHER than us in EVERY WAY. allah is NO god in biblical reality, because there is only ONE GOD and that is the god of the bible. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ, you do not need to eat sheeps hearts, that is not a requirment in our day. i may become homeless but i am going to heaven, i will do my very best not to become homeless but if say that happened then it wont change my destination after death. The holocaust did happen and this world was created by God whose intelligence we cannot FULLY comprehend for He is infinatly more greater than we are. my life has been changed for the better in knowing jesus christ as my saviour, i am by no means perfect (wonder how many people will catch onto that and make a paragraph of it) by i want to be i want to do good i want to follow Jesus example, i fail in many ways but i dont point people to follow and imperfect person like me i point people to Jesus as He is the ONLY one able and willing to save us from our sins. i am not expecting people to convert just because of what i am saying and i cannot fully explain everything or answer every question but i know enuff to know that my faith is real and true and can make a difference for good. this world is very confusing and i am not surprised people dont know which way to go, but jesus is THE way. I wont be seen to be right one day, God will. there are truths out there where on evidence you will find that the bible is worthy of its claims, it is boiling down to faith and what we personally will accept or no, open your mind to everything and find out about jesus, give it a real try and i trust you wont regret it. the bible is for the whole of humanity, thats why we spread its importance, its message, again we are all free to choose. many people can testify to the saving power of God, what in this world can give what God offers to give.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Murdoch

Its amazing how every time I respond to you, you just completely ignore my points and plow on. Not that I would expect much different from a bible thumper but still, at least pause for 3 seconds and respond.

You probably don't respond because if you had to think past all the brainwashing you have been though since a child, you may find that all your beliefs are complete and utter nonsense.

You ignore everything everyone has said here and keep offering the same nonsense that every priest and believer does. You're not here to argue your point, your not here to do anything that remotely resembles intelligent conversation. Your here to troll.

Move on.

http://www.krashbox.com HaTe_MaChInE

A little back on subject. Even if ID was science(which its not) why is there a need to teach it in schools. There are hundreds of subjects that are NOT taught in school. It seems that people that are so worked up about ID have an agenda.

We can compromise, no evolution or ID but we replace it with Geology and "Theory of the Earth". That way everyone will be happy.

Or maybe astronomy and Lambda-CDM.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Sell everything proof,

Mark 10:21 [21] Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

By the way, all the old laws STILL NEED TO BE FOLLOWED. So says the almighty Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven

Number 17 says that NO LAW shall be removed from the laws.

Therefore

Number 20 still applies . You shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, if you look up Pharisees, you fill find a ton of ancient laws (including the ones I mentioned) that they followed. You need to EXCEED them, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Not to mention the fact that if you think only god is perfect, and the books were written by imperfect MAN and then translated 20000 times into 400 different languages by IMPERFECT MAN, how the hell do you expect it to be correct?

Logical

i would like to ask a couple of questions to those who believe that scientists are by establishment in favour of evolution and they attack intelligent design:

1. Since the US is so religious state why be all in favour of evolution rejecting intelligent design? all people in establishment are in favour of the phrase "God bless America" after all. it doesnt make sense

2. Can we see a decline in Religion at the same time that intelligent design was introduced? make your own thoughts

3. Nazis have used the ideas of Darwin in a wring way just as the US developed nuclear weapons using the equation of Eistein. Does that mean that Einstein was in favour of that?

4. Can Intelligent Design explain itself? Evolution can somehow answer most questions even as an idea applied evverywhere. If you apply intelligent as an idea what do you get?

Lastly i would like to say that im not favour of any established science, nor do i want people to abondon immediately religion (i honestly believe that if people practised what they preached religion would not be under attack as religion would not be a threat to peace and proggress)but consider that maybe the system creates this uncertainty in all matters. when everything is an industry its hard to believe anyone. I believe in a system where people would not have a personal gain in confirming their ideas people would make the best out of science and basically anything. For the moment i thing evolution holds a better answer. Thank you

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@ Logical

1) As I mentioned Before The US is not founded on religious belief. The song that quote is typically recalled from didn't come into existence until around 1920, which mind you is a fair shake from 1776. "In God We Trust" as our nations motto didn't come around till the 1950's. This country was hardly founded on "christian morals" like everyone claims.

2) There is an overall decline in religion, the more science offers testable answers to questions only the bible could before, the more it will decline.

3) I agree here, however just note that Hitler was a "devout christian" who thought he was doing gods will.

4 doesn't need a response.

Overall nice post, good to question both sides.

Emma Rosen

As far as I can tell, this documentary isn't saying this is the absolute answer. Stein is saying we have the right to ASK the FREAKING questions. NO good science comes from blind acceptance. Even the most basic premisis can be questioned. And Colleges should mention ID because they need to know what other people are talking about, if only to counter those ideas. Since when did voicing an idea, or a dissent, become heretical? I feel like we're dropping objects off Itallian roofs again.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

ID Is not Science, it does not belong in a Science class. Period. They can argue for ID on their websites, in debates, in their homes and churches, on the streets in documentarys and just about anywhere else, but it still isn't science, and shouldn't be taught as science.

Since that is all this documentary is attempting to do, its perfectly reasonable to say that this documentary is trash. There are better documentarys out there based on the ID movement and I would tell people if they want to know about it go there.

Its not Science its repackaged religion and therefore it doesn't belong in school.

Murdoch

This leads me to the understanding that if ID is credible it would mean that is GREATER than science and that science is something which comes to seek the outworking of the Designer of the world.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Of course they keyword being IF, which it is not. Once ID can prove its science OUTSIDE the science class I am sure the science world will take them more seriously.

Until then, its not science and doesn't belong in school.

Hardy

How ID is 'taught' in German schools:

1st day of the semester about evolution (13th grade, second semester, biology). We go into the room, on the board it says:

" 'Creation'
(Lamarck)
Darwin "

Introduction speech:
"Okay, this semester is about the theory of evolution. How did life on earth come to be? We have three main ideas - everyone knows the creation-stories: god did it. Obviously, this is not a testable hypothesis, but still a possibility. We'll learn about the other two in this semester, Lamarck won't take long and most of the information and evidence will be about Darwin' theory. Let's get started, open your books to page ..."

This is how the 'controversy' is taught here. That's it. And it's great because science class stays scientific.

pipo

This is one of the most offensive "documentaries" ive ever seen. This man is a total assclown.

peelingpaint

I haven't really heard proponents of neo-darwinism (which I used to assume must be faultless)directly rebut any criticism of it, other than to say that they don't claim to know everything - but that won't do if they're claiming there's as much evidence for it as there is for gravity.
OK, so genotype is strongly correlated with phenotype, and both are correlated with the niche that a creature occupies, and, also, there seems to have been some co-development of form, genotype, and behaviour over time.
Why does that mean that random mutation and selection must be the explanation? Where's the direct evidence for that?

peelingpaint

I'd like to add that I don't think that 'intelligent design' can be a scientific hypothesis, because I can't imagine how sentience could be scientifically identifiable in any discovered mechanism. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that it could be present in evolutionary processes of whatever nature-- we can't even see our own sentience, we just know it's there.
Even mainstream biologists know that natural selection can't be the only explanation for biological form- it has to work on something, if it is to work at all. If cellular machinery and bodily form were shown to be directly due to some kind of 'chaotic' self-organising phenomena (for example), without natural selection playing a dominant role, I think that that would make it *seem* more as if sentience was fundamental, rather than a secondary phenomena that developed from dead matter, but it wouldn't *prove* that that was the case. So, that's what I think the issue is really about.

Jason

Intellignet Design is not Science, its rebanded Creationism and has no place in Science classes, leave it for Church or Religious Education.

If you want to try and prove Intelligence Design as a Science, use the Scientific Method to find emperical evidence of "Whom" the designer is, and God is not the answer to the unknown.

"God did it" is an answer from the ignorant.

Evolution IS science FACT, weather you believe in it or not, its FACT.

Just because you do not understand how something works, doesn't mean it was popped into existence by God.

Love how this doc is depicting Evolution and Darwinism as a Socialist Republic. Very unbias Ben. He seems to believe intrinsically those who share his World view. And question those who do not. This isn't a Doc so much as it is a Flame War on Evolution and Darwinism. Documentaries are supposed to be impartial, letting the audience make up there own minds. He tries to give an impartial view point but is defending one over the other.

Jason

How does believing in Evolution mean there is no free will?. The rest stands to reason, but free will, i don't think so.

I make up my own mind on what i want to do at any given moment, i believe Evolution is Fact, and there for true, and i still have free will. Free will is not proof of God.

FACT is, this arguement can't be decided until you die, because then the truth will be revealed.

Eliminating religion WILL NOT lead to a utopia or cause more war, i say that because of the clip of Stalin, way is it there think Athists want to start wars, is it because Stalin was an Athist? or did Stalin do what he did because of Human Nature, because with or without Religion and/or Evolution we still have to deal with Human Nature. Have you noticed that there is more crime in populated areas, is it simple a statistic, more people = more crime, or is it simply that when you get too many people in a confind space, we fight.

Ben Stein is simply trying to discredit something that he has no understanding of, Evolution, but instead of researching it and learning for himself and then deciding which side of the fence to stand on, he simply picks a side and defends it in ignorence of the opposing view point.

Wait, did he just say that Darwin is responsable for Hitler and the Holocaust? are you serious. So Sir Francis Galton uses what Darwin wrote in "On the origin of Species" a natural boilogical scientific study and built an idea that we could weed out the weak and "useless", is that Darwins fault. Is it Einstein's fault that his theories were used and pervertited into making an Atom bomb? If Darwin knew the future, and that his theory would be twisted, would he of continued. You can't blame a man for something some else did one hundred years after it was written. Hitler tried to invade Britain, and he bomb London, so should i hate all Germans? well no, because they didn't do it, Hitler did. And it was a book called Eugenics, not Origin of Species, that got Hitler into this stuff.
Because i believe in Evolution doesn't mean i what to "cleans" our spieces, why is that, because i have an understanding in whats right and wrong, Ethics if you like.

Wait, i thought this was about the agruement between Religion and Evolution, if your going to talk about people twisting Darwin, why not the Crusades, where the most brutal acts of mass murder, killing even women and children all by soldiers acting on behalf of the Vatican, the Pope used criminals, murders, telling them that if they KILL the Muslims, that will be penence for their crimes and they could then got to heaven. Religion, twisted it may have been, is resposable for more death and human suffering then Darwin will ever be.

I say again Intelligent design is not Science, because you say its science, use the Scientific Method and find your Intelligent Creator, because if all life was created, then there are only two choices to choose from either life was created by Aliens or a God. Personally i find both just as ludicrous as each other, and i challenge you to prove me wrong, because isn't that part of the scientific method, to prove wrong a theory. Prove me wrong, but, if you can't find your creator through scientific research, then don't say "Oh, it must be God, because we can't find anything".

The typical response from Religous people to what can't be explained is "God did it"

I loved Ben's dogmatic closing statement, using the Berlin wall, a symbol of oppression, as the metapherical Scientific boundary. What a pile of crap. He makes it sound like ALL scientist are Nazi's.
Intellignet Design is not science its rebanded Creationism, as spoken by a Federal Judge in 2005, and Creationism is Religious belief, and Religious belief does not belong in Science.

Jason

@Beck, The bible is NOT proof of God, it has about as much truth in its pages as Lord of the Rings does.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

I never said it was proof of god. where did I say that? Did you read ANY of my comments? How can a book thats been translated and written by man be proof of a perfect being? Pfft.

http://yahoomail MANUEL kyriakakis

separation of church and Church and state.freedom of religion but not at the excpence of tax payers.If these so called profesors or teachers want to teach their religion on other peoples impressionable people. They should do it in private schools funded by their religious organazations.

Randy

I moved this post here from another board as it is more appropriate here than there:

I wrote:

"I have great respect for the intellect of Ben Stein, and have since… well, back when he was a speech writer for Nixon. I agreed then and have recently agreed with many (certainly not ALL) of his op. ed. pieces on American domestic “issues”.

I watched his “Expelled” documentary and shook my head through it, knowing that even as he is a christian, his real religion is neo-conservativism. And even if he knew that the science he espoused was faulty, he would embrace it, and proclaim it, for the good of his “movement”.

His fields of knowledge are broad and deep, but I suspect that his scientific accumen has suffered from a lack of attention, due to his focus on many other fields and disciplines.

But, ultimately, all of his information must be carefully considered angainst his overwhelmingly entrenched neo-conservative views. Which clearly color all of his actions and opinions, as I see it."

And then, I'll just say this: Christianity and its gods are evil and must be abolished for the good of humanity.

Philonous

I saw this documentary a year ago, and I have to say that its probably the most uninformed and biased documentary on evolution. I think PBS documentary did a lot better in informing the controversy between Evolution and Intelligent Design, but Ben Stein simply argued that Evolution simply couldn't be true not because it was unscientific or untenable but because it has its long historical connection with Eugenics, Holocaust, and Social Darwinism.
This whole documentary is built on a logical fallacy of Straw-man fallacy and ad hominem. Evolution has nothing to do with Social Darwinism, Eugenics, and the Holocaust. Evolution is a verified theory of principles of perpetual change, common descent, natural selection, adaptation, etc. In other words Evolution describes the contingent dynamism of biological species.It has nothing to do with "inferior" or "superior" genes, such claims has been undermined by Neo-Darwinist who would argue that there is not genetic basis of race and superior genes.

Ben Stein has failed to take account of how the scientific studies of evolution changed dramatically, and he failed to realize that evolutionary scientist are no longer Darwinist but Neo-Darwinist who believe in a synthesis of evolution and genetics. The studies of Evolution is very different from what evolution was before, and the ideologies that supported evolution for its own purpose was a deliberate distortion and misinterpretation of evolution.

I personally think that Ben Stein gave the most unconvincing argument against evolution, I would be convinced if he argued against evolution by showing contrary evidences that undermines important theories (such as natural seleciton) which Evolutionary Scientist believe. I think his accusation of Evolution leading to Atheism is a very horrible one, he never argued why it is horrible to be an Atheist. Also barely half of the evolutionist are actually theist (Christians, Jews, Muslims)in the United States. I conclude that Ben Stein gave the most inadequate, childish, and rudimentary criticism against evolution.

For those of you reading this, if you really want to know the real problem between Evolution and Intelligent Design don't listen to people like Ben Stein. Go watch PBS documentary on Intelligent Design on Trial, it does a better job on showing what the real problem is and shows why the Scientific Community disagree with Intelligent Design. Ben Stein simply did not show those real reasons and gave horrible analogies that the scientific community is like a totalitarian regime. One thing that Ben Stein needs to get straight is that the science is not a humanities or literature, its a rigorous discipline in which once the theory has been widely because it has been proven, one has to go through extraordinary leaps to disprove it.

Yolanda

Philonus: I think that you are taking this documentary as if Ben Stein is the one who is trying to discredit evolution. This documentary is not about that. It is about the bias in the accademic world against very good and reputable scientist, who have by scientific inquiry come to a scientific conclussion, that scientific evidence is moving in the dirrection of ID, and have lost their jobs for it. If I were you and as I see you feel very passionatly about this. I would do some research on both sides of the scientific evidence. Don't take it from Ben or from PBS. But go do your own investigation without pressupossition or bias, just look at the evidence from both sides. And when I say evidence I mean evidence not heresay. Before you reach your conclussion. Because this is not about Ben or anyone else. It is about where the evidence leads. And more importantly, this is about why is it that in the United States, which is supposed to be a Country where we are suppose to have freedom of speech and freedom of scientific inquiry, those basic and fundamental rights are being violated. We are moving into very dangerous territory.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Yolanda

Oy...

Your logic is heavily flawed here. Intelligent design is out to discredit evolution, this "documentary" is supporting Intelligent design, thus its out to discredit evolution.

The rest of your entire statement requires Intelligent design to BE SCIENCE, which it is not. The country is doing exactly what it supposed to be doing, asking for proof before teaching. There needs to be something scientific about it for it to be science. Thus it needs to be testable. You are more than welcome to teach your kids whatever your crutch-requiring mind wants (I feel sorry for your kids however and hope they have some friends who live in reality to teach them what real life is).

The government isn't stopping you from brainwashing your kids in church, and the government isn't even asking you to stop. In fact it gives you tax write offs (which should be illegal). We already left the dangerous territory, that was the dark ages. When religion had far to much power over the populace.

jtl1985

Religion cant be a problem because its an object. Like a knife: you may use for slicing bananas or slicing people. Is the knife the problem?...No, what we do with is.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JTL1985

One of the more ridiculous statements made in this forum. That's the same as "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

I like to see you stab me without your knife, or shoot me with out your gun. Same applies here, only religion can make good people do terrible things. I do mean MAKE, the nonsensical brainwashing is the same as control.

A weapon is a weapon, Religion is the same as a knife, a gun, a nuke or anything else. It's only reason for existence is violence and control. All the "nice" stuff wrapped up in it is just a way to control the weak willed.

I would apologize for being so blunt, but I wouldn't mean it.

JoeyC

Beck,

Don't apologize for being blunt. We can take it!

However, if I wanted to kill you I would use whatever was handy, be it a gun or a knife or a rope or an oyster fork. As we saw in Godfather Part III you can kill with a pair of eyeglasses. So, eyeglasses don't kill people. People kill people.

Whether it's a spear or a sling and stone, a poisoned mushroom, or a colleseum filled with hungry lions, none of them would kill without the intent, direction, and purposeful use by a human.

Anything else is a way to avoid personal responsibility.

"It was the gun (fork, stone, ice-pick)! Not me! Put the gun(fork, stone, ice-pick) in prison!"

Pretty silly, eh?

JoeyC

Achem's Razor? I'm not familiar with that story. Is it like Achim's Razor? Or Achmed's Razor?

Please advise.

Thank you.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

--LOUD SIGH--

HERE WE GO , AGAIN...

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JoeyC

I think its a play on the spelling of Occam's razor which in essence means, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. IE if you hear a the clopping of hooves down the street in the middle of a city, you better off assuming is a horse than a Oryx Antelope from the Serengeti.

If that's not what his name means, then I have no idea and you can ignore me! :)

As for my statement, Weapons make the killing of people easier on the person whos going to do it. How many killings with guns have been regretted afterward? How much easier is it now a days to send kids out to war with equipment that shows the enemy as nothing more then a blip.

Back to my statement tho, If a person is set out to kill you, they will indeed use whatever is available to do the job. However, NOTHING like religion makes a good person do bad things. Religion is the supreme king of making enemies nothing more than animals. And the biggest difference between the weapon of a gun or knife and religion is that with religion, it suddenly becomes "OK" and "righteous".

And just because you can kill me with anything at hand, doesn't mean I should make it easier by handing you a gun.

JoeyC

Beck,

Handing me a gun would not make it easier. That's a myth. A poisoned mushroom is far easier. And not nearly as noisy! A gun leaves much more evidence, more potential witnesses, and a big ugly mess.

Anyway, your thoughts are well argued and thought out.

However, I must respectfully disagree with you on two points. Killing, murder, whatever you want to call it, is as old as humanity. This is a sad fact. The weapons (nuclear aside) are irrelevant in my opinion, as proven by Roger Moore in his film, "Bowling for Columbine," where he (inadvertantly) makes the point that Canada has far more guns per capita than America but Americans kill with guns far more often.

It ain't the guns.

My second disagreement with you is a more complex one which I can't go into here in all its depth. Simply put, religion has been used as a excuse to kill. It is the hypocritical use of religion as a means of profit or ground aquisition. It has rarely been about "defending the faith" although this is what they might have shouted.

Let us recall that the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century were avowed atheists: Mao, Hitler and Stalin.

My personal study of religion and history leads me to hold that the church created and saved Western Civilization, although at times severely flawed, no doubt.

I don't mean to sound like some gun nut--I don't own a gun (in NYC it's illegal anyway) but I'll tell you, if I owned a home in the suburbs and had children, damn, I'd really think about it.

PS - I know about Occam's razor. That was just a little humor I was attempting!

McGarvey

@ Joey C

Roger Moore's 'Bowling for Columbine' - that's one film I'd pay money to see (raises one eyebrow).

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JoeyC

I agree that killing is old and primal, animals do it, people do it everyone does it. Alright that's a given. However, not until man made weapons, and religion was killing done for the sake of killing. In ancient times killing was done for land and security, once those were had the killing stopped. Now a days killing is done in mass and without any other reason then "they don't believe what I do". Now, I am not fool enough not to realize that a lot of the religious wars and killings had land etc in mind as well and its fair enough to say religion was used as a cover for those goals.

As for your second disagreement, I heavily disagree. While Stalin was assuredly Atheist, Hitler may or may not of been depending on what you believe. However, in either case neither of these people killed in the name of Atheism. No war or mass killing in the history of time has ever been done in the name of Atheism. Just because they were Atheists doesn't mean anything. They were evil, greedy and controlling bastards that's a fact, they just happen to also be atheists.

Its unfair to pick a random fact about someone and say that was the cause when there is no proof in that. Its like me saying Hitler only killed people because he had a mustache.

And honestly, I agree with your last point, if I lived there I would probably own a gun as well.

jtl1985

@ Beck.
So if you are saying that religion is the same as knife, why dont we prohibit knives from being sold?... we colud save thousands of lives. Lets sell knives only to cooks. And by the way... thanks for calling me ridiculous, that was very respectful of you.
PS: violence is never the answer

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JTL1985

I never claimed to respect you.

I don't agree that violence is never the answer, in fact its quite often the only answer. I think the statement should be "religion is never the answer". Fits better in the non-flat, non-geocentric modern world.

jtl1985

@Beck
you didnt answer the cuestion, why dont we prohibit knives?.
PS: its a shame that you dont respect people, i think we should respect even our enemies

jtl1985

By the way, Im not religious, if that is the reason because you are being rude

jtl1985

Sorry about my english

JoeyC

Beck,

"They were evil, greedy and controlling bastards that's a fact, they just happen to also be atheists."

Bingo! That they were! As were the Bishops and Knights and Vassals who went off to conquer the Middle East during the Crusades and returned with untold wealth -- as were the Princes and Dukes who during the 30 years War often attacked their own nations--as was United Fruit with the help of the C.I.A. created phony wars in Honduras in the name of "Freedom." Ditto in Iran with Mosadech. And other places.

And last but not least, Geoge W. -- who in the name of fighting terrorism and "establishing Democracy," has murdered millions (mostly civilians) in two phony wars based entirely on lies.

I may say "I'm killing you because you don't believe in God the same way I do." That doesn't make it true. It's just so convenient.

War has often been fought in the name of Atheism. One of Mao's avowed targets were the Monk's and religious orders whom he hated as he considered them enemies of the truth (atheism). Ditto Stalin, who tried to eliminate all forms of worship and spirituality. That's war in the name of atheism in my book.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JTL1985

We do prohibit knives to be used as a weapon. We prohibit a lot of things to be used as weapons. As Joey said earlier however, if you really want to kill someone you could use anything, a thick rolled up newspaper could do the job.

We don't prohibit knives because they have some good factor given to them, IE cooking etc. Gun's on the other hand have only one purpose, death and should be absolutely banned. Most of the other industrialized countries have banned them. America hasn't, why? Stupidity in my opinion.

My respect isn't just handed out, every one I meet and talk has neither my respect nor my disrespect. Your first comment was ridiculous, and thus you shifted to disrespect.

And your English is fine, I understand you well enough to argue with you :)

jtl1985

And can you prove religion is always bad, i heard that Eistein was a religios person, did that do any harm to him or society, would you tell him if he was alive that his believes were absolutely negative for life?

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

I think if Einstein saw what religion was doing to science these days, he would say it himself.

jtl1985

Beck

So would you say that the problem is what we are doing with religion now, rather than simply mention that religion is the problem? I think that religion es being used as a mobile for comitting atrocities, thats clear, nontherless it can be used for good things aswell. For instance, the indegenous people around the world ar very religious and they dont do any harm to themselves or nature, well at least some of them. The same case with science: it can be used for creating things or for destroying things too

JoeyC

Beck,

I know what you mean, but I don't see it as "religion," I see it as political opportunists USING religion to control their constituents.

Truly religious folks, like so many Catholic Priests and Clergy, have nothing but support and respect for the proclamations of science. Some of the world's greatest scientists were in fact men of the cloth, some it's greatest humanists were as well.

It is more those in the "religious right," those who want to ban books, outlaw homosexuality, etc, who are attempting to keep their flocks frightened, angry and stupid--always easier to control them that way.

And yes, if Einstein saw that, he would, as any person of intelligence, religious or not, puke.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Religion is NOT the enemy of science. They don't even belong in the same discussion.

jtl1985

joey c

I agree absolutely with you

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JoeyC and JTL1985

I think you hit the nail on the head with a fairly on topic comment and goes back to all my posts, Religion is not Science and should never be taught as such.

I agree that religion is misused, and I can see the "appeal" of religion. But honestly, all the good things religion does is more or less a crutch and a lie. If your only good because you fear what god will do to you, your goodness is almost worthless. If you are only happy because of a story in a book of lies, why is that preferable to the truth?

The truth is difficult to hear sometimes, but I believe that using religion as a crutch to hold you up is paramount to lying to yourself. I know churches go out and help people, offer food, build houses etc, but so do atheists and usually for better reasons. There is a local atheist group here in San Diego that do the same things churches do, without all the self delusion.

jtl1985

Again, an object cant be a problem on its own, we make problems out of objects

Hardy

Sorry to throw in a word from myself, but:

No single follower of a religion is bad. At least not worse than other human beings, whatever their beliefs may be.

But the institution of religion is bad - it creates hate between people that could otherwise live side by side in peace, even though their views may differ.
Also, it demands money from the poorest to support the already rich. A typical trait of many institutions, if you ask me.
And lastly, it prevents knowledge, because the religious institutions demand ignorance of other views.

Two (undefined) theists may argue intellectually about the nature of 'the devine', but be friends on a personal level. A muslim and a jew will always see each other as 'going to hell' and as 'wrongbelievers' and will, with great probability, not become friends.

So, in essence, it's not about 'belief' per se - it's the defining institution that is bad.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Again that's ridiculous. The Andromeda galaxy is heading our way and will eventually obliterate the entire Milky way, sounds like a problem from an object that we didn't make to me.

Objects cause problems all the time that have little to no control over. And just because we made an object, and that object is allowing us to cause trouble doesn't mean we shouldn't DO something about said object.

If someone makes a bomb, and sets the bomb on the floor of my home with my family, that person made a problem out of the object. yes I could go beat up the person but that hardly solves the problem. Objects man made or not, are problems in their own right and need to be solved.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Hardy

I have a hard time arguing that. So.. I wont. Nice job :)

jtl1985

And with the guns issue too. I have heard about a tribe in the middle east which buy guns simply to shoot into the air, their aim is not to kill people, they do it for fun. Would you tell them that they can not enjoy themselves that way because is baaaaaaaaad, guns are bad and they should be repented for doing that?

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Guns are fine for non violence, and are used all over the US for hunting. I have gone hunting a few times, I don't have much taste for killing animals myself but have done it for food a few times.

I have no direct issue with guns, but it still is a weapon, and anything that's designed to kill people is something we can do without. The human race is still evolving, soon we will be able to get our food and nutrients from non-animal sources and at that point, guns are pointless.

Your not very good at arguing your point JTL, in fact I don't know what your point is. Maybe I'm just not good at seeing your point. /shrug

JoeyC

Beck,

Honestly, science can be just as much of a crutch. As a deeply religious (or at least, trying to be) person I see the hypocrisy of other religious people around me all the time. The fault is NOT the religion. It is a fault that lies within them, a flaw, as we are all flawed.

Now, my problem with atheists, is that they are JUST AS RELIGIOUS as religious folks. What do they worship? Their own intellect, their own ability to understand and think and "KNOW" much of which they cannot know at all.

To judge religion and the spiritual, you must experience it first and that means letting go of your own understanding of reality, of your own ability to understand. No easy task, admittedly. Most atheists I know are too "religious" to give that a real try. It means letting go of their most "sacred" tenets.

And in my opinion, they are missing out on an extraordinary experience: and experience of a reality beyond the five senses, a TRUTH beyond words, beyond, even, understanding. It is the substance of the epiphany.

Hardy

@jtl: You do have to admit that it's hard to argue that a gun's primary objective is to kill. Be it animals (we have trained and skilled hunters for for animal-population-control, here in Germany) or humans...

Sure, a knife CAN kill, but it's primary use is to cut food.
A gun can kill... and... well, that's pretty much it. It has no other practical use, therefore we should regulate or ban them. If you want to shoot stuff? Get an airsoft gun. Simple as that.

Hardy

Sorry, typo. The first sentence should read:

"You do have to admit that it’s hard to argue that a gun’s primary objective is NOT to kill."

Romulus

JoeyC, I hope you do realize that many, perhaps most of the atheists were at some point in their lives religious. You cannot say that they are not capable of judging religion.

jtl1985

Is the ban on drugs working, is the prison system in the united states reducing the criminality?. Wouldnt it be better to educate rather than prohibit?

Atheism and Science both reject just about every part of that definition. They reject supernatural answers (main definition and set 1). There are no set in stone beliefs or practices, anything in Science if disproven gets removed; religion hardly allows that to happen. It doesn't meet any of the definitions of number 3. And there is no Faith in science, its either proven or not.

Science is the search of fact, Religion is the belief in a story. They are no where close to the same thing.

Also, the thought that you believe that I am missing out on an extraordinary experience is how I feel about all religious people. The real world is far more marvelous then anything written in the religious texts. People who believe in nonsense are the ones blocking out the true greatness of the world around them.

And for me, I had religious ties as a child actually. I was a deep christian until I actually sat down and read the Bible front to back and decided I didn't really care for all the rape, slavery etc. I studied many other religions, Buddhism, Judaism etc. None of them answer questions without "faith" which is nothing more than letting someone else do the work for you.

I prefer to take my own destiny, hold my own morals and beliefs for my own reasons. Without fear of the Santa Claus not giving me gifts because I wasn't good. I grew out of the religious beliefs the same way I grew out of belief in the other controlling characters of my Youth.

Also, for 99% of the religious world, you only believe what you believe because of where you life, and what your parents believe. Kinda odd how people are OK with something being true based on geography.

jtl1985

i think prohibition and violence are just being counter-productive. Lets think and educate

Well, while your telling the guy who's killing you its a bad idea, I'll be trying to prohibit certain actions.

jtl1985

Beck
i would say yes too, send to jail every bad person on earth, if that was giving results, but is not.

JoeyC

Romulus,

"I hope you do realize that many, perhaps most of the atheists were at some point in their lives religious."

No, I don't realize that. I don't realize that at all and no one can determine that. One may be raised in a "religious community" without having an iota of religious belief. I see it all the time.

No, Romulus, I don't accept that at all.

JoeyC

Beck,

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

If this doesn't describe many atheists I know, I'll eat my hat. There are MANY forms of religion my friend, such as, "My son, the doctor," or, the hatred of Jews, or of blacks, or anything that one holds and uses it to prevent one from looking at something contrary to it with an OPEN MIND.

One cannot hold a scientific view and examine religion. But that's exactly what many "scientists" attempt to do. It leads to nothing.

In some ways science and religion are polar opposites. The value of science, the thing that makes it so valualbe and important, and such a powerful tool, is that it relies specifically on experience, on testing and observing the results of testing--on reason and understanding, it requires PROOF.

What makes religion (or spirituality) the powerful tool it CAN be is that it REQUIRES "not proof," that is FAITH. Faith is ONLY valuable and powerful or has any meaning if it is NOT PROVEN. If one had proof of God it would be useless as one could not excercise one's faith. "Faith is the evidence not seen." Of course, this is what scientists hate, no?

That desire for empirical proof is what prevents the scientific atheist or whoever from experiencing and excercising faith. And that refusal to acknowledge the soundness of the scientific paradigm is what prevents many (the minority) of spiritual people from experiencing the joys of the sciences.

JoeyC

Beck,

By the way, Beck, I do not appreciate your quoting the damned dictionary to me. I KNOW what religion means, and I know what it can ALSO mean.

Please, do not condescend. I have only spoken to you with utmost respect.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

I got a story, it ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
I got a song, it ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends

Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?

Be a REAL man.
Be responsible for your mouth, your thoughts, your feelings, and your reactions.
Quit being a sissy.
Quit making excuses.
Quit using violence in lieu of a true solution.

JoeyC

Guys,

This has been a gas, but I've got a date with an actual woman tonight, so I gotta split.

Keep up the good work!

Joey C.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@JoeyC

Obviously I need to quote the dictionary at you if you believe that faith automatically = religion.

I have faith that my brother will do the right thing, doesn't make me religious.

Religion does use faith, but faith is not religion.

If you need me to quote the dictionary for you again, I will be happy to do so.

and your not the only one with a female my friend. My wife will be due home soon as well.

Good day.

JoeyC

Beck,

The day I need YOU to quote the dictionary for me will be the day I drop my pants and do the "funky chicken" in Times Square. In other words, don't hold your breath.

And clearly, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond your own "religious" view of what "faith" and "religion" mean, which is precisely why I wrote earlier that atheists are among the MOST religious people in the world.

Bark hello to your wife for me.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Joey,

Its a shame someone who seemed so intelligent had to resort to such childish antics.

Have a good evening Joey.

Epicurus

@Joey, if atheists are religious, then each person here who DOESNT collect stamps has a non stamp collecting hobby.

if some particular people who dont believe in god use faith in certain aspects of their life that doesnt mean they are RELIGIOUS.

by using the word as you please you are taking any actual meaning away...

of course quoting the dictionary to you wont make a difference because you dont seem to care what it says.

you could say some atheists you know are ignorant and sheepish, but religious would be ridiculous. unless you are using the term as a simile.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Well, now that JoeyC has left the ChatRoom for his online speed-dating War Of Witchcraft thang, that just leaves the rest of us mateless fugly Yodas left to circle jerk amongst ourselves...

HEY, WordSmith... make me laugh by looking up " Transpermia " and also "diphThong:...

Unfortunately, some males do not have the benefit of having had a father who was intelligent and forward-thinking enough to explain the difference between Consideration and Respect, or Faith and Religion, or Duty OR Honor.

You cannot get decent working definitions by watching a bunch of war movies, nor by listening to a society full of brain-washed but well-meaning veterans.

http://www.authorsden.com/rockie starman

Mankind: Intelligent by design, upgraded and modified to fit the times. What we need to do is read the owner/operators manual for proper maintenance, performance and life expectancy of the product. Like any good engineer, the product must be updated to fit the environment and functions that might not have been necessary when the prototype or first model rolled off the assembly line. So it is with man kind. Many different models to choose from. I choose female/blonde or female/redhead.

http://www.authorsden.com/rockie starman

Of course once you drive it off of the lot the responsibility is the owners and the product immediately is depreciated in value and starts to deteriorate. Planned obsolescence? It worked for Henry Ford and the other Detroit moguls. Cannot wait to see what devolution produces from a once perfected design, then left to the care of its owners.

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

Who are you talking to Dancing? O.o

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Beck,
As is typical for my posts, to whomever the message applies. BUT...

Hmm, looks like JoeyC's post from 3:40MST did NOT pass the censor's test, but MY posts did, and my post should have been the one to be censored. JoeyC's post had no "language", no censorious material.

Hey JoeyC, you posted @ 3:40MST. That means you did not "score" on your "date" with a real woman last night. dont hayt im jus sayin bro

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

I guess "god" wasn't on his side.

bo

I'm still open to a creator whether be it aliens or god. The more comments I read however, its hard to argue for ID. The pro evolutionist rationality out crushes those of God or ID. I maybe read one person supporting ID that made a good statement. Because of this, I tend to always lean more with evolutionist.

Dee

This is a complete load of crap..

The only problem with ID and Creationism that science has is that there is no verifiable evidence....there are no repeatable experiments to prove there is a god...Science is constantly changing with new discoveries and scientists are more then happy to throw out an old idea if another more plausible, researched and evidenced idea comes along..

This is a terrible documentary very much skewed in one direction and that direction is to appeal to our emotions. There is no science here.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Hey Boah,
Would you be open to the idea of a creator that is in fact the entire fractal experience of The Universe? A creator that is made up of all the energy and matter, both known & measurable, AND also is made up of all the energy and matter that has NOT yet been recognized by the single-minded scientits?

Would you be open to the idea of a creator that occupies the largest and the tiniest nooks and crannies of space-time, including the currently unrecognized physical dimensions? A creator that is also all multidimensional Time: past-present-future-forward moving-backward moving-sideways moving Time?

Thats what god is. All this and more. god is NOT a human form. god does NOT desire special worship. god is just another one of the guys. god is everything. There are no Chosen People. Everyone is both special and not special. And evolution and intelligent design are occurring simultaneously. And there is no scientific argument to be settled on this subject.

ira

my jaw.. somewhere in Australia
where did he find all these people ???

ira

ok now i read the comments.. so funny )))

let me see.. I'm not gonna prove what was already proven, ie. darwinian theory of evolution, I assume he didn't waste his breath for nothing. For now I'm gonna pick on ID >:)

So intelligent design is a presumption (or a take) that the vast diversity of life on earth did not spring into being by a random chance, but occurred due to the interference of an intelligent designer. I assume that what they imply is not only the diversity phenomenon, but also the creation of life in the first place, since the _chance_ is not the way to approach this. This always strikes me as being a bit off, especially when they look at things at that level. No one argues that it was the god's brilliance to introduce chemical bonds into the picture and how it must be a god's creation. In fact, only biology seems to be taking a hit, where as it's physics that should be considered as a new candidate. However, physics proved to be a bit too complex, and chemistry a bit too tangible.. you get an electron and a proton and you get Hydrogen. Awesomeness.. but not the godly kinda awesomeness. lol
Booooring.. but look at the human eye.. wow, how precise. You get the drift. ;)

So what strikes me is that no one looks at the smallest particles like electron and go like "wow, dude they are so small and have properties ?? Praise the lord !" But what not many people realize is that our universe springing into being is quite an accomplishment, life by it self is a pretty minor accomplishment, to be honest.
But what am I arguing here ? Well if you want your Intelligent design taken seriously, you really gotta start looking deeper, much deeper, into the levels of a tremendously small proportions. The only possible designer would be lurking there, definitely not at the life level. ;)
(lol I'm feeling so evil now)

I love how people get all worked up at the evolution theory "well how about God", it's like asking "well how about John? How would John feel about it?" Well, John, ladies and gents would get over it. So would your very human God.

I also love when they give the chance value to the possibility of life emerging from the carbon protein chains, or say, well how is it possible that we emerged from monkeys ? If we didn't, we wouldn't ask :)

Ok, I'm being mean here. To be honest the answer does lay at the level of quantum mechanics. Think about it, those things do have properties, thus enabling them to interact, thus enabling then to create bonds, thus allowing them create complex bonds, thus allowing chemical reaction to happen and living organisms springing into being. What are the chances of that ? 1 to 1. You know why ? Because of this inherent potential of the subatomic particles to interact with one another. Now that's quite exciting ! From the M theory we assume that matter is just a result of fluctuating energy. Energy inherently is the cause to everything we see. And on the level of energy we know there's a potential to become matter and to interact ! Praise the lord. ;)

So let's sum it up. Even if there's a creator:
1) we still don't like ID.. becaaaause... intelligent creator would bother doing stuff on much simpler level.
2) it doesn't care about your sex life, health or financial problems.
3) it's not like you'd ever imagine it in your wildest dreams...

ps: the author of this piece of writing is not responsible for any upcoming fundy attacks on M theorists and quantum mechanics specialists.

teacher and educator
good science will always prevail over this crap. Put to the test it fails every time but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real work.

lacey

teacher and educator
Good science will always prevail over this nonsense. Put to the test which it has it fails every time, but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real time consuming real work.

peelingpaint

@lacey
Really informative comment- not in any way an empty assertion. I've seen Miller's argument as to why Behe's case 'fails' and it's cobblers. He sneakily implied that the the fact that 40 proteins had to be removed from the BF, before another viable part was revealed, was actually *supportive* of the view that there was no reason not to question whether it could have come into being incrementally.
when I see tricks like that, and a lot of unsubstatiated scorn, it leads me to believe that the ID proponents are onto something.

Of course, that means I must be stupid and 'irrational'-- because being 'rational' is all about accepting opinions that everyone knows are 'rational', isn't it?

Randy

@peelingpaint

If, (IF!) there is some god-thing than it cares nothing at all for you. ID talks of the bible exclusively and that is fantasy.

Any other idea of god is not worth mentioning if we can't measure it.

Is all's I'm sayin'

Randy

@Lacey, who wrote:

"teacher and educator
Good science will always prevail over this nonsense. Put to the test which it has it fails every time, but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real time consuming real work..."

Yes. Indeed. And, frankly, teachers and educators should get paid as much as atheletes. I mean, they instruct our future generations, afterall.

I didn't go into academia because I knew I couldn't really make more than 60K US a year, (in America...).

The Great Asian Poeples have it right. Anyone who deems to be a teacher, there, gets all kinds of tax credits, free apartments, all kinds of perks...

That money attracts the best minds... for your children!

Anyways...

peelingpaint

@Randy
"ID talks of the bible exclusively..."
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the bible, your statement is fantasy. ID proposes that there are mathematical features of structures or processes that result from intelligence-- or in other words purposeful, sentient activity-- and that these can be found in biological form.

I don't know if the maths is rigorous or not, but I do know that it was taken seriously enough by csicop, on the page- Darwin in mind: Intelligent Design meets Artificial Intelligence, for the authour to assert that Dembski's work constitutes a 'Darwin detector'. In other words, they believe that our human consciousness is the result of a natural selection of algorithms in our brains.
I give them credit for consistency, and their rare graciousness to a proponent of ID, and I'm also grateful for them for corroborating my suspicion that neo-darwinism *does* have deep metaphysical implications.
However, I've long thought that such views on consciousness are wrong, tho the argument is very deep, and I can't claim I completely understand it (tho I doubt all Dawkins and Dennett supporters do either), I think Penrose has made good arguments as to *why* they're wrong.

If Dennett-like views on AI does indeed imply the neo-darwinism, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's more reason to question whether natural selection of random mutations can *really* create novel form.

OK, too long a post, I know. I could say more, but for now, I'll just ask you--- if it's not scientific to detect markers of sentience in nature, what makes research into AI scientific, when the project is premised on the belief that the existence of sentience can be rigorously deduced (clearly, it can't be *directly* detected, and Id doesn't argue for that)?

Re your other points, 'intelligence' is all that ID concerns itself with-- whether that intelligence constitutes an intelligent entity or not is a separate metaphysical argument.

God may or may not exist-- whatever his/her/its 'existence' might mean-- and I think that the way that many of today's atheists' approach to the question is facile-- and he/she/it may or may not care about me-- but problem of evil arguments are problematic imo, and I've no reason to believe that materialists care all that much about me-- not that such considerations should be too much taken into account if we're being *scientific*!

Randy

No, Peelingpaint, my comments are certainly NOT fantasy.

The actual Intelligent Design "Movement" as a political entity is funded and backed by the Baptist and Pentacostal churches.

That is clearly documented and recorded.

In fact, when I first heard of the "Intelligent Design" movement, I thought, "Ok, fine, maybe there is some intelligence guiding evolution... fine..." but, NO!

These guys want to destroy evolution, and replace it with the silly bible.

That I do NOT forgive!

I suggest you check out James Locklock's work on the Gaia Hypothesis, it's very interesting, and has some ideas about "Goal Oriented" evolution, not measurable or testable though...

Like I said... don't bring any god's into the mix, the Universe is actually pretty simple to understand...

peelingpaint

@Randy

No doubt religious groups *do* fund ID research-- so what? Can't you find an agenda everywhere? Wouldn't it be more to the point to talk about the arguments? When you don't, but just offer assertions, it isn't too convincing.

If you're trying to tell me that Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, and others have nothing to say, except that the bible is all we need, then well... forgeddaboutit!!

Randy

@peelingpaint

In case you haven't met me yet, let me just re-iterate...

...Islamo-Christianty is the END OF THE WORLD! The END of all humanity!

It is evil and must be stopped.

If you advocate it, you perpetuate that evil.

Randy

@Epicurus who wrote:

"...@Joey, if atheists are religious, then each person here who DOESNT collect stamps has a non stamp collecting hobby..."

That is excellent! Is that your quote? It sounds like something you'd say...

Wonderful!

peelingpaint

@Randy

"…Islamo-Christianty is the END OF THE WORLD! The END of all humanity! It is evil and must be stopped.

If you advocate it, you perpetuate that evil."

I was just going to comment on how surreal that comment was, I find many of the arguments of the 'four horsemen' and their followers very silly and strident, but thought the term 'atheist fundamentalist' a bit over-the-top and cliched. I thought the above quote must have been some kind of wry comment on that concept, and perhaps a bit self-satirical.

Apparently not.

dizmo

I am not religious but it is pretty important to remember atheism is a belief. A very decent portion of them ( I grew up a devout atheist, I have met many) hold to this beleif with almost a religious zeal. This is why the religious crowd says atheism is becoming some kind of pseudo religion. All who attack this play into arguing pointless semantics...

Randy

@peelingpaint

Well, yes there is some hyperbolic self-satire there... and good call!

But, I use it to make a point!

I will say, that having a PhD in World History has taught me that what I say is really quite true. Also, my study of evolutionary biology and psychology has taught me all that I need of morality. It's very simple. No books needed! Just look outside!

And, the rancor I feel for these Abrahamic, religions of the "Book" were despised by our Founders as well...

(IF you are American... I do not want to assume...)

http://godisimaginary.com Beck

@Peelingpaint

ID is absolutely flawed even in its ridiculous fashion, even if you tried to look at it seriously (which is difficult) it has a huge gaping flaw.

Who created the creator?

Everything we make scientifically has a creator mainly humans. But humans came from somewhere, you say god. So where did God come from?

Something that can make everything this absolutely complex needs to be infinitely more complex and something even more complex had to make that thing.

Then it comes down to, there is absolutely 0 proof of ID. Lack of proof does not equate proof of its opposition.

Randy

@Beck

I agree, of course. The problem of infinite regress, (which you described well...)

However, my only disaggreement with your statement is the "complexity" part...

Really, we and everything I see around me, and every animal in the world, is not really that complex.

I mean, I have examined these thing in labs, and morgues... I have held the human organs in my hands, (as part of my anatomy rotations... the brain is interesting, it feels like the whites of hard-boiled eggs...) but, seriously... not complicated.

People who think it is... I don't know what to do for them...

I don't know, look more closely?

peelingpaint

@Randy
I'm English, so what your founding fathers thought isn't really my argument in a way, but it's an important question and I'd need to do some research. I think that they were deists on the whole? Though I'm not altogether sure what they meant by that-- I know it basically means that god started the universe going and then left it to get on with it, but I think there may be differing attitudes within that framework.

I've read evolutionary biology and psychology as well-- the latter *does* seem to make sense of the world and explain motivations, I'd agree-- although I now think that that's an illusion.

Even if I didn't have questions as to whether novel form, function, creativity, or motive really *can* arise from a combination of randomness and mindless laws, I'd still find evolutionary explanations of morality useless as regards motivating moral behaviour.

To explain-- from my memory of books such as Robert Wright's The Moral Animal, altruism evolved because altruism gave a reproductive advantage to creatures, and so the 'selfish genes' that promoted it prospered. However, a population of altruists can also maintain a subset of cheaters who take advantage of them. This can be shown mathematically. This makes sense on a metaphysical level as well, for how could altruism evolve, if it's opposite did not also evolve?-- they are mutually interdependent.

So, my point is, even if this mechanistic explanation is all there is to morality, how does understanding it tell you anything about the moral choices you are to make? How do you know that you are not one of the cheaters that will prosper? Even if you aren't, might there not be courage in trying, as long as you're prepared to face the consequences?

I'm sure that there is a strong case to be made that Abrahamic religions have caused a lot of trouble in the world. But I also think there is probably a strong case to be made for just about any idea in world history-- even communism-- some (not me) say it's never really been tried. Conclusions can soundly follow from premises, but those premises are never established by the argument in which they feature. Take the idea that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution-- if 'evolution' there means neo-darwinism, then the existence of nested homologies *does* fit very nicely with it-- but that doesn't mean that they're a smoking gun for it.

Soz there was a delay in answering you btw, I had to make something to eat. I'll probably take a while for me to answer your next post as well, if you make one, because I have to go out now-- will give me time to think about it anyway.

peelingpaint

@Beck

I don't think that 'designing' necessarily needs a 'designer'-- this is a concept that's familiar to many Buddhists who believe that there's no 'doer' of any deed.

I'm sympathetic to Idealist philosophies, but strictly speaking more so to non-dualist ones, since I think that dualism involves contradictory beliefs... but anyway, I have no trouble in thinking that intelligence is fundamental and needs nothing to produce it. So, if God is fundamentally Mind, then there's no need for there to be any designer of him.

@Beck again,

I actually believe that reality *is* simple at source in a sense. In fact, I think it's 'nothing'-- Still, it must also be complex in *some* way, or where do we get the concept of complexity from?

Randy

@peelingpaint...

You have to give this up...

Um... Yes, if you are Anglish, then you have a slight leg up on my swamp-water, howling countrymen, however, I hear that christian screechers are starting to creep in even there...

Again, (and again), you just don't cheat because it is not the right thing to do. Not because some silly book tells you so.

Morality is something that is bred into the animal, the organism, to perpetuate the species.

We are social mammals. And that's all. Nothing more is needed. You are muddying the clear waters with your desire for a "soul"...

Whatever, my friend, you want it but you can not have it.

There is nothing waiting for you when you die. You and I are meat. That's it. There is no one and nothing looking out for us, and we are all on our way out-- act accordingly!

Randy

Oh, and BTW, OUR Founders, for the most part, were theists... kind of...

I mean, most were Freemasons at best, believing god was just some amorphous "Architect" but at worst they were pagans and agnostics.

I mean, this was before Darwin, but they were smart enough to smell that something was up with this "god-thing"...

But, they strove to free us from the tyranny of christian Europe.

Randy

Oh, and BTW, they knew all about the tyranny of the papacy and your "Anglican" church... (and all other churches)

They wanted to free us from that, and you want to pull us back in...

Nice.

Prayerless

I'm shocked and disgusted that Stein can dare to compare the Holocaust to the fight to keep intelligent design out of the classroom. You should be ashamed of yourself!

peelingpaint

@Prayerless

He didn't. He implied that Darwin's ideas influenced those who orchestrated and allowed the holocaust. If you're going to express shock and disgust, it would be a lot more compelling if it was in response to what Stein and others in the film were saying.

http://www.authorsden.com/rockie starman

It is sad to think that we are on the verge of creating synthetic life forms, although not sure if this equates to artificial life forms or even if there is such a thing, that we have this debate. If we can create life from organic materials, why can't we be prototypical creatures that were created, tested and either pass or fail the manufacturer's specifications. Especially if the competition poisoned the well and corrupted the whole batch that followed. I think our concept of God is to surreal and not real. An intelligent interdimensional being created a virtual reality for us to exist in and promises to deliver us from it if we only repent and believe in his son. Stop putting the creator out of reach of feelings and dignity, by putting him in a box. Let God be god and do his thing. You choose to believe if you like that an infinite number of monkeys given an infinite amount of time could create all of the works of Shakespeare, and you still would not mathematically be able to come close to astronomical odd against you existing and reading this today.

peelingpaint

@starman

Ventner didn't come close to making synthetic life-- that just makes a good headline and provides good material for 'whatever next' watercooler conversations.

http://authorsden.com/rockie Starman

Thanks for that Peeling Paint. All I am saying is to yourselves a little credit and use the brain you have, however you believe you arrived here with it at all, and to think for yourselves first. Do not take what Stein, Darwin, me or anyone else says without checking out the evidence yourselves. This can be empirically or by induction if that is all you can do after the fact. The information is presented here to bolster the documentary creator's point of view. Nip this in the bud, form your own thoughts independently, and then weigh the arguments in favor of where the greatest and most believable points exist according to your intuition and life experiences. This is all IMO anyhow, since none of us were there or least remember being there at the dawn(s) of life, whatever your definition of that happens to be today. It all comes down to faith in your universal/world-view and semantics. For every argument there are one or more counter-arguments. Therefore, look out your window, take a walk and look up at the stars tonight, or gaze into a child's or your lover's eyes and then decide how many "miracles", literal or figuratively, had to occur for you to be here reading this today. Science, mathematics, evolution, or theology, anyway you bite into the apple of truth, at its core it all comes down to some number crunching faith in something.

peelingpaint

@John Copolella

Yes, I agree with that, as The Buddha said, 'don't take anyone's word for it'-- or so I'm told he did anyway!

It's good not to be analytic all the time as well, which is what I think you're saying.

'A person who thinks all time, has nothing to think about except thoughts. So, he loses touch with reality, and lives in a world of illusion'

Alan Watts

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

@ John Copolella
ABout the "gaze into your lover's eyes" line... I don't HAVE a lover, because I'm just a lonely fugly Yoda

BTW, you really SHOULDN'T use your real name on any website. Identity theft and all...

Randy

DancingSpiderman,

Believe me, the only way to be safe from the internet, is not to use it!

Even then...

It doesn't matter. If someone wants to find you they can, you would be horryfied to know how easy it is. There is no security on the internet, that is a myth... a comfortable lie, that people tell themselves.

And, I am sorry you are lonely. There is someone out there for you!

Good luck!

Your Mum

It amazes me that people are determined to have an opinion when they can't even demonstrate that they have understood the basic argument presented in the show.

Willful ignorance is caused by an inability to absorb the opinions of other people. Narrow-minded people attach themselves to all types of idealogies and the Darwinists are no exception.

If you watched a significant part of this documentary and think it is talking about creationism, you now have proof that you are even more stupid than the people you feel you have the right to insult.

If you are going to critize something in future try and switch on your brain and pay a little bit of attention. You may even learn something one day.

Can't stand fanatics of any kind but those who use science as a front to hide their mental rigidity are arrogant arses.

PAY ATTENTION

James

To bring back an older topic, reincarnation IS in the bible in a roundabout way.

Jesus is asking the disciples "Who do you say that I am?" And they mention how some believe that he is Elisha or John the Baptist reborn. Now, these are the people who are going to be spreading God's word, and he NEVER stops to tell them that reincarnation couldn't happen! He only praises Peter for saying that he is the Christ. Which kinda sorta says that even though they were wrong, Jesus didn't see a problem with the idea of reincarnation.

James

Also, why are Christians so concerned with proving that there was a creator? It doesn't help their religion at all! After all, proving that there was a God-like being who started creation, doesn't mean that it was YOUR God-like being! There are hundreds, if not thousands of Gods throughout Earth's religious history that have been credited with creating humanity. Even if science were to prove creationists right, you'd still have to hope and pray (lol) that you've picked the right one to worship! And who says that this creator is any ONE of the many Gods in our history? How do we know he even wants worship? We could just be one of his science experiments. After all, he/she/it would be this all powerful being and juuuust maybe he/she/it wanted to see what would happen if it created life. Just a thought.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

Hold the show, James... whatEVER your religee is... SIGN ME UP.
I'll sell my house in town. Quit chatting for a while, and hand me one of those cone-shaped paper cups for to drink in my Kool-Aid. just...

SIGN ME UP.

James J

Note: I'll be referring to myself as "James J" From now on since I have found another James who posts on this site and don't want to be confused with him.

@DancingSpiderman

Lol. Well fortunately, it's not a religion at all. If it was I'd have to make some kind of rule about headgear. (George Carlin side-joke there.) I just hate the fact that I can't seem to find other like minded individuals who are able to discuss other possibilities even if they don't believe in them. I find that the problem with believing anything is that it makes it difficult for you to honestly see the other side, even if you are open minded. When I argue a point, the way I base my arguments is how some people play chess. I try to see what moves I would make if I were the opposition. If I actually truly BELIEVED as they do. By doing so, I enable myself to see things from both perspectives, which is why I was able to not be a part of the insane religion I grew up in to begin with.

You see, my mother taught me to question everything. As a child she was always told that children are seen and not heard, and that you don't ask questions, you just listen. This frustrated her, and she swore that she wouldn't do this to her children. When she had me, I was allowed to ask any question, as long as I did it politely, and LISTENED to the answer, and thought about it, before simply refuting it. Unfortunately for her, (and fortunately for me) I did not make religion the exception to this. I applied this type of thinking to religion just like anything else. This caused my freedom. I do not understand how my mother can think like me in every way, EXCEPT when it comes to religion. It's just beyond me. But, as others have said, much of religion's power is due to how children are raised. I was raised to question, and my mother had left the church for a while, but went back when I was a child out of fear. Fortunately I was around 5 or 6 at the time, so I had 5-6 years of being taught to think rationally before the dogma tried to settle in.

James J

On another note, further proof that (some) people who claim to believe in God don't really believe as they claim.

Most of the men and women I know that changed their religion, did it because it was the religion of their new spouse. My cousin for instance. She was raised in the same fundamentalist christian church I was, turned catholic with the father of her son, then muslim because of the father of her recent daughter. To me this says that she can't possibly TRULY believe in God, or at least not God the way he appears in ANY religion, because if she did, she would NEVER change religions for any man, simply out of fear of God's wrath. Being able to change religions shows one of two things depending on why you did it:

1) You are at least *somewhat* rational, saw problems with your previous religion, and found another you believe is closer to the truth. This is better than most people, as you can at least (usually) have a rational conversation with these people as they are what I call passive truth seekers. (By which I mean that they won't simply deny anything they don't like the sound of as long as you have rational argument to provide, even if they don't look for the holes in their beliefs themselves.)

2) You don't believe in God at all, you only use him as a crutch because he makes your life easier by being able to believe that you have someone watching over you and that your life has purpose.

Okay, so there's a three.

3) You do believe in A God, but not THE God preached by these religions. You believe that there are many paths to God and that none of the religions are truly right, and so simply find the one best for your lifestyle. Of course, the question then is, why belong to a religion at all? Why not just be a good person and find "path" to God? But whatever, your choice I guess....

James J

Here's the final killer:

Religious people are always complaining about being "persecuted" or "made war on" and other non-sense. And ok, sure a very small percentage of atheists MAY do so, but I doubt it. It's probably just people getting sick and tired of being shouted over when they try to talk normally, and so they finally shout back. But even if that's not the case, your bible SAYS that you are going to be persecuted, and so forth for you faith. Therefore you should be HAPPY that you are supposedly being "persecuted" because according to your delusional thinking, that should prove you right! Or do you not believe your own "holy" writings?

http://www.authorsden.com/rockie starman

It is no fun to suffer for any reason, particularly for something stupid like what you believe. Sometimes we bring it own ourselves by acting stupidly and not respecting others boundaries. Sometimes the attack is unprovoked. As far as holy writing and delusional is concerned, we have gone so far past Darwin, but you still cling to the mathematical improbability of the Rubik's cube of life theory. Mankind is on track for creating life, or so they believe, and his own creations are on their way to an AI version of themselves and will eventually write themselves out of the equation. So what is outlandish about us being created? Certainly there have to be smarter entities out there than us, who can create their own reality. I happen to call my God. Watch out for what you don't understand, it may be your downfall some day.

http://YouTube.com/DancingSpiderman DancingSpiderman

J.J.:

Trust me when I say that, here in this TDF website, YOU DO have quite a large number of thinking fellows. But what YOU SHOULD NOT DO HERE is to tell people to not bring up their beliefs. The various branches of Science are merely sets of zelously-held and defended beliefs (religions). And the dogma of the current belief gets modified funeral by funeral.

For decades now, the talking head physics scientits perpetuate concepts about M-branes and multiverses but yet they have no single robust set of mathematical formulae nor repeatable empirical data with which to support this belief, yet their administrator bosses lobby like crooked politicians and rake in hundreds of millions of dollars every year to create the next big experiment or to keep the current SCientits Employment Gravy Train well stocked and chugging along. Step outside your strongly held point of view of the science industry, and that is the understanding that you can't HELP but see.

I've noticed that the debate posts of this kind SHOULD BE taking place in the TDF FORUM part of this website, but hardly anybody posts and reads there; it's the lonely Pluto-Cheron bus stop that nobody uses except for a few lonesome fugly hairy Yodas. The part of the website this comment resides in now is supposed to be used to discuss non-debateable aspects of the film. I won't give examples; you'll have to don your non-argumentative thinking cap, and not be yourself for a few minutes. I know, for some of you, this is impossible to do.

But there you go... it takes all kinds to make this World happen; even the people you DON'T agree with. ESPECIALLY those people.

James J

@ starman

I was merely making a point about the suffering, not being literal. Much like you accuse us non-theists of taking the bible too literally, we are often taken too literally.

James J

@ dancingspiderman

You said:
But what YOU SHOULD NOT DO HERE is to tell people to not bring up their beliefs.

I don't believe I said that people shouldn't "bring up" their beliefs... if you are referring to a post I made on some other pages where at the end I stated in all caps "STOP TRYING!!!" I simply meant for people to stop trying to bullishly CONVERT people. If it seemed otherwise I do apologize for my not being clear enough. I NEVER meant that people shouldn't speak about their beliefs. That is against everything I believe in.

As for scientists pushing things they have no data on, yes it is true that it does happen, and it happens more frequently than some people care to admit. Those particular scientists are indeed turning their belief into their own personal "religion" you could say, (though it's not *quite* the same it's close enough for the comparison to be made) and are making their data fit the model. However OVERALL, science is doing a great deal for finding truth. This is why even with science, you must check and re-check your sources, and their data before accepting what has been said.

Again however, if it seemed I was trying to tell people to basically shut up rather than not be so... pushy, I do apologize.

James J

@ dancingspiderman

Upon re-reading said post, I also was trying to tell people to stop pretending they had "Facts" that could "Prove" that their religion was right when their own religion stated that it couldn't be proven. I wasn't attempting to tell them to not bring up their religious beliefs at all. After all, if they don't bring them up for discussion, they can never be expected to learn anything about them, leaving them no way to change their thinking. Which would perpetuate what their religions want them to do anyway.

Although I will readily admit that I did go a bit too far with my "argumentative cap" as you called it. (I found that line both funny and true.) I should probably refrain from posting on a religious forum directly after being completely frustrated by a religious argument had with my mother, who refuses to see any reason at all and where I can't get a word in unless I become rude and shout my words out. :D

http://www.godswordtruthandprophecy.info Zelda

I just finished watching the documentary, and have only this to say, STein is correct when he speaks about our freedoms being @ risk. I was in Washington D.C.this past 4th of July and got a chance to look @ our founding documents. At the very end of the exhibit area there was a document that was out of place. Displayed there was the Charter of the United Nations. Why I ask is the Charter of the United Nations displayed with our founding document?

I believer there is an agenda to disolve our freedoms that our founding fathers fought for. Our very way of life. People, ignorant people as if they had a clue talk about America not being a Christian Nation, like they have knowledge of this. Our very freedoms are being erroded right before our eyes. I dare anyone to google qoutes from our founding fathers and see in fact if they mention GOD.

The fact that atheist don't want to believe there is a Creator is the fact that they want to continue in their sins. They don't want to have to answer to GOD who will hold them accountable. There is absolute truth and we can know it.

The following is taken from GOTQuestion.org concerning who created GOD:

A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God).

This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?

The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.

How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.

http://www.godswordtruthandprophecy.info Zelda

GOD Exists!

I challenge any atheist to ask GOD, specifically JESUS if HE exists. If you truly wish to know the answer, instead of coming to a conclusion which you have no direct knowledge about, go to the source, ask GOD. Ask HIM to reveal himself to you as Scripture states:

Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:12-13 KJV

Atheist are unaware of alot of things concerning GOD, most of which HE is Sovereign, which means HE is in control and not them. I was very bothered by Dawkins statement during his visit with Stein. He said a lot of blasphemous things about GOD, but HE is merciful. Others have said worse and have been forgiven.

Dee

@Zelda

How do you propose someone asks God something when they do not even think he exists?

A good majority of America's founding fathers were athiest or agnostics, look it up, and those that were believers agreed that, and this is going to shock you here, there should be SERPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

Your rights as a christian, muslin, jew, etc...are not being erroded. In fact, the Christian right has one of the largest lobby groups in the US and usually gets what they want in the end. Atheists, although most believe no religion at all would be best, are content to allow others to believe as they want as long as it does not interfere or infringe on the rights and lives of others, something that happens quite often.

How can you say that your faith is the correct faith when Muslim men, women and children are willing to blow themselves up for their faith? Would that not lead one to believe that their faith is stronger and therefore the right one?

The biggest problem most people have with religion is that it gets forced on those who do not believe and is considered by many one of the biggest lies ever told. There is no historical records or accuracy of many things in the bible, a book that the religious take as truth.

You cannot just decide that because your god can't be explained that he sits outside of all explanation. That is a cop out and if science thought this way then we would not have advanced past the stone age.

James J

One tiny flaw with your argument Zelda. You said, nothing comes from nothing. Ok, say we take that. So we are then to assume that there was always something in the beginning right? This you get god from in your argument. But here is where you make your mistake, going your argument, saying that there was always SOMETHING, doesn't mean that the something that was always in existence has to be a conscious being. Why can't the something that always existed, be simply the entirety of mass in the universe? Why does it have to be alive? Or even if it is alive, why does it have to be an all powerful life-form? Your argument only states that something must exist since the dawn of everything. It does NOT give you any ability to decide WHAT that something must be.

http://www.authorsden.com/rockie starman

Nothingness is a valid state. Our conscious thoughts resides there and in fact in a creation of its own reality. Information sits at the center of consciousness. Else, we would never have a thought to think about, so therefore the seed of reality is information. Did this information pass down to us from the thought and will of another consciousness? It would seem logical, although in the end a circular logic exists. Which came first the chicken or the egg. Condition is everything. Your belief depends upon a starting point in your assumptions. Our something could have come from nothing, and not a point of infinite density which carries its own burden of proof that is usually swept aside in favor of the other results that have come from theoretical physics, which in turn mirrors ancient philosophies. Where stand on a subject depends on where you sit, and is indicative of the self-serving biases we all carry with us, ready to whip out on a moment's provocation to our sensibility and sanity. So thank you for your opinions, however different from my own they might be.

mas

I think it is exactly what religion does. It limits our freedom and thinking.
Bytheway, nice movie clip. I doubt if it was a documentary.

http://www.godswordtruthandprophecy.info Zelda

Dee, James J, and Starman
For the sake of space, I’ll respond to all of you @ the same time. First, I’ll ask this: If your ignorance is based upon unbelief, don’t you owe it to yourself, to discover if your unbelief, is truth?
There is more evidence for the existence of GOD, than His non-existence. I would venture to say that if you look @ what is available in terms of evidence, i.e. sources within and outside of Christianity, you will discover this to be true. Google whatever you wish if you are so inclined to ask the questions.
Now, what’s really behind your unbelief is the moral question. This comes down to whether or not you want to admit that GOD is in control or you. Because if GOD is in control then you have to answer to HIM, and not yourselves. The issue is whether or not you want to be accountable for the sins you have committed. Because you see GOD, who created everything is Sovereign and well, we are not. He is the judge, He is righteous and HOLY, and will punish sin. People don’t want to acknowledge the ‘s’ word because that would mean they would have to think seriously about GOD.
Not one person having ever lived can say that they are without sin except 1 person, JESUS. For the bible states: ‘THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD. THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." Romans 3:11-12 NKJV

People want to be GOD in their lives, you know do their own thing. GOD’s standard of righteousness is the Ten Commandments, and we must be sinless. This goal is unattainable, on our own, but GOD made a way thru JESUS. He took the place of all that would put their trust in HIM for Salvation.

Christianity isn’t ‘forced’ on anyone Dee, however with islam that’s a different story. Regarding historical record, are you aware that The Bible has more documents that have survived antiquity, including the works of Julius Caesar, Homer, etc? Sources outside of Christianity attest to existence of Our LORD JESUS CHRIST, check it out for yourself.

James J, the big bang occurred, and was controlled. The universe is finely tuned so that live exists here and no place else, and if let’s say that one of the elements were out of place, life could not exist here. Again everyone, belief in GOD is a moral issue. GOD gave us a conscience, that’s our barometer to let us know if what we do is right or wrong, and truth is not relative but absolute. All of you have done things, sinful things that you are guilty about, and/or ashamed of, things you wish you could erase. You have sinned against GOD, and will be judged. But in HIS eternal love for you, HE sent JESUS, HIS Son to be sacrificed for you. GOD sacrificed HIMSELF for you because HE loves you:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21 NKJV

Achems Razor

@ Zelda:

Their is no evidence for the existence of any god's. None, even not one out of the 28,000,000 god's in recorded history.

The Universe (Earth) was not fined tuned for humanity, humanity was tuned for the Universe (Earth) through the process of "Evolution"!!

You god is not righteous and holy, he is a mean "bast*rd" read the old testament!

No proof that such a person as Jesus even existed.

Google..."Problems with the Bible"...click on problems with the bible.

Achems Razor

@ Zelda:

I forgot to add, all religion is basically forced on everyone all the time! So give it a rest.

eireannach666

@Zelda

You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

@Achems

I think Im on a Sagan trip today? This would make it the third time I quoted him today.Hmm

http://www.authorsden.com starman

I was once a mocker, arrogant and a bully to those who believed differently than me. It only made me a smaller person and gained nothing in understanding or felicity among human kind in its struggle to understand. if you disagree with each other at least be civil about it. This forum is not for personal attacks, but to express a different perspective on the documentary. I do not see that happening here. Grow up and learn that no one knows it all, but together we can begin to see a wider perspective, and at least learn to appreciate our differences, or what is the point of humanity and our differences slight as they may be with other carbon based life forms? After all what would Ben Stein say if was here to witness this catcalling?

Achems Razor

@ Starman:

Right, then you should practise what preach! Check your above posts.

eireannach666

@starman

One shouldnt press their religion if they dont want to be disagreed with. Disagreements are not mockings and expressing ones thoughts on anthers statement is not catcalling as you put it.

You should head your own words. What was this then? "Grow up and learn that no one knows it all etc.." Sounds to me like you are quite the hypocrite. Eat your own feed back , my friend.

Slainte'

@Anyone
Who said this? "“The books that are called immoral are books that show its own shame.” ??

http://www.authorsden.com starman

I'm not perfect, but I can learn too. Thanks for making a point. I just hope we can keep this one level above school-yard antics here and try to learn from the documentaries AND each other. This is a great website. Let's not turn it into another internet flame war. Stein is entertaining and shrewd. I enjoy listening to him no matter his source of material or point-of-view.

eireannach666

@Zelda

What visable , tested proof do you have for god? What are your sources for this proof?

Just curious?

eireannach666

@starman

Youd have to admit that anytime you see a doc like this , well scratch that , most any doc , you get all the religees bring religion to the table first. Most people on here want to talk about the docs but it seems religees like to come test their faith in a science doc. We have to constantly rehash the same arguments about religion because of this.

Oh well , everyone is free to their opinion , right?

But I understand what you mean there.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

Everything does not have to be proved by empirical statements. Somethings you just know from experience. If you do not have the same knowledge and experiences as one who believes differently, then you cannot judge fairly whether another's fall short or not. The scientific method only applies to science, not God unless your God is science, then go right ahead and apply it. Yes, I am a hypocrite, and I believe that evolution is a complex mechanism that is not necessarily the best way for anything to have come into being. For sure there are intelligences beyond our own comprehension, and we are certainly more than just meat sandwiches with a brain. Of course, it still may be true that Darwin DID evolve from apes, eh? As for all others, the odds of all that would would have to occur to come to the point of advancement the human race has evolved to may be more than all of the information in the universe could ever have self-organized no matter how much time is allowed to pass. Unless you believe in as great cosmic roll of the dice that came to together at higher and higher levels of order over time. I believe the second law of thermodynamics and entropy is against that probability even once in the lifetime of the universe, although anything is possible. In that case I better get and infinite number of monkeys and typewriters and put them to work on that Shakespearean play. You can choose which one!

http://www.authorsden.com starman

To be or not be, THAT IS the question. Isn't it?

"To be, to be, what does it mean to be?" Neils Bohr

http://www.authorsden.com starman

My reality is my reality, regardless of who else believes it, or how I came to that conclusion. I am sticking by it unless I have overwhelming evidence to show me differently. We are free to disagree. TI can hardly blame you. That is the difference between science based on personal experience in the lab, backed up by a conglomeration of statistical analysis and corresponding theory, and what many call religion. One is based on yourself and your world experiences coloring your belief systems of the truth of reality and the the other is based on statistical analysis and repeatable results. i combine the two. They are inseparable to me. I do not oblige you to come down to my level of understanding in what I accept as truth, neither do I kowtow to others, although a simple explanation of your point of view would be over a nice cup of tea would suffice at times.

Achems Razor

@ Starman:

Yes, everything has to be proven by empirical evidence and then to facts.
You said beliefs? yes, that is what you have, beliefs, but you cannot take beliefs to the bank.

Darwin evolved from Apes?? Then he is the only one. Humans and Apes share a common ancestor,

You said probabilities, yes, everything hinges on probabilities.

eireannach666

@starman

"In that case I better get and infinite number of monkeys and typewriters and put them to work on that Shakespearean play."

You see this is evolution and evolution is fact my friend. What is it about evolution specifically that you have a problem digesting. I mean just because the odds were great shouldn't be enough to disregard the evidence there for.

The odds that an earth would exist in the universe is even greater yet you dont deny its existence as a fact?

Everyones reality is their own.

eireannach666

@starman

We are apes. Weare a differant type of ape branching off from this common ancestor. Think of it as a tree, when it first sprouts it has but 1 branch and eventuall they get to numerous
and different in most ways but all have a common starting point.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

I have never seen macro evolution, though it really does not matter to me, how life arrived. Empirical evidence, then show me some, not just a series of fossils that you assume derived one from another's ancestors. Show me the process occurring in the lab or else you still base your science on certain assumptive beliefs, not empirical evidence. That is called faith my friend. Mine is not different from yours except that I have an open mind as to how it all came about. What did occur 1 x 10 -e42 seconds before the big bang? I hope it was a great explosion of infinite power bringing the universe into existence before our physics even came into being or time and space made sense. You see it is always a leap of faith, no matter where you start on the wheel of knowledge. I just believe in intelligent entities giving rise to their own reality to do with as they please. Gee, they sound a bit like us, or at least what we are trying to bring about in our labs and our churches don't they? So live and live and let nature be your teacher.

eireannach666

@starman

Faith is based on absolutely nothing and used as reassurance
for the naive, All the above is based on facts that we do know and have proven and is based on these truths. It is not faith but the most likely probabilities that could happen based on what we know.

eireannach666

What are you saying happened to cause the big bang then?

Achems Razor

@ eire666:

Yes, by definition, biologically we are members of the "Animalia Kingdom"
We are animals. Albeit a thinking species.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

Until you can reproduce it in the lab it is still a theory of evolution. Like I said I do not care if you are right or not, just realize that you still base your theory on assumption, and that probability that mankind came from a series of accidental or self-organized processes is highly improbable, bilions times billions times billions of events all occcuring precisely in the right order and proportions at the right time. That is bad science, or least I never got my chemistry experiments to work that way and neither did anyone else, with a whole lot less elements to organize and conditions to meet. If you ARE right then I want to go to Vegas with you!

Achems Razor

Starman, I would like to know also, what you think caused the big bang,

http://www.authorsden.com starman

I am not saying what in the history of the cosmos as we know it preceded what has been called the big bang, because I was not there, but neither were you. All we can do is speculate which is useless, but whatever did precede it must have been really something and I wish I could have witnessed it. What a miraculous course of events to get to me and you and this forum. I think that is worth raising a glass to my friend, however it happened! What say ye?

eireannach666

@starman

Evolution has been reproduced all over the world. For instance , A volcano went off on an island and thus the environment changed. The ground went from green to gray. There was a species of mice that were at one time black to hide from predators and when the environment changed to grey , within 15yrs or so they managed to change color. No more black mice but instead grey but the same species. Natural selection at it s finest!

Seems to me you are somewhat a smart person. Why so stubborn?
The fact that we are such a minority in this universe ought to be enough to see that such circumstances to create this earth and this universe are far from farfetched. We are and all here in the universe are star stuff, Our whole molecular structure and all life on earth, even earth itself is star stuff. You being a chemistry fan should be well aware of this by now?

Achems Razor

Starman, does your lab produce even one shred of evidence for all your god's, ID, creationism, etc:??

eireannach666

@starman

Are you familiar with the Fermilab collider and what they are doing there? You should google the lab and collider and see how far we have gotten on this issue thus far and then wait 10yrs and see...and also go back ten and compare.

This is also a good analogie of how we come to our conclusions on what happened. Looking at what is as opposed to what was builds a conclusion of the future.. It is a weak analogy for this but I think you get what I am saying.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

Well, then if changing color is evolution, then obviously I have misconstrued your definitions. Chameleons do that, but they are still chameleons, they did not morph into another reptile, a mammal or a bird. That is what I thought you were referring to here as evolution. In that case is suntan evolution? I am just asking here. So adapting to an environment is evolution. Then yes there is evolution. My question is that it has never been seen where one species turned into another AND been conclusively documented. As far as the higher intelligence I call God, it does not require you to believe in its existence or be put under a microscope to exist. There is a so much that we do not know. We are on a two dimensional view of things that are three dimensional and beyond. You know the analogy. Also, I have personal knowledge of this entity I call God, that is equal to or greater than the personal knowledge I have of you, yet I suppose you really do exist, and are not just malfunction of my computer keyboard randomly hacking out your side of the conversation in minute synchronicity to mine. And thank you for the compliment about my being a somewhat smart person, though there is some room for cynicism there too! I agree with your materialistic viewpoint about the star stuff and the sea stuff too! In fact I am a big fan of the universe and all of its cosmic wonders. How queer we should seem at odds at all on anything, with scarce a disagreeable chap among us! -- Starman

http://www.authorsden.com starman

Fermi lab, ah yes, The university of Chicago anf the great Enrico Fermi who built the first atomic pile there when ther was just the Met lab and Arthur Compton ran it during the Manhattan project. Fermi was instrumental as well as Ulam at Los Alamos in figuring out the science needed to carry out a controlled nuclear reaction, that led to the construction of Little Boy and Fat Man. A brilliant theorist, among many brilliant theorist. The Fermilab, well I get a new letter every month that is called Symmetry and I read it when I get the chance. Fanstastic the progress being made toward understanding the basic constuents of matter. What of the LHC? Why all of the hype about the blackhole being created there. Too bad that US Congress killed the SuperCollider that was to be built in Texas, and that allowed the cutting edge of particle physics to move to Europe. Let's hope American's can still be a part of the international effort, whether at Fermilab or LHC!!

eireannach666

No starman No. Bad starman!

This doesnt happen overnight. This happens over thousands to billions of years at a time depending on what we are talking about evolving.

Overtime if the pressures of the environment changed even more drastically than these mice would have changed even more so and so on until they were completely different. And this is just a small example but it is still them adapting to their environment, A chameleon is not evolving since it is a trait already of use to it. That is just a natural defense and predatory characteristic of this animal. How do you think it got that way and all other lizards did not?

I think you are mis-interpreting evolutionary adaptation and natural selection with normal characteristics. Sunburn is what happens when you get too much sun. BUt I will say that the lack of sun causes a D deficiency and has alot to do with the different colors of people as they migrated out of Africa. This evolution.

11 dimensions starman , 11. And we are not on 2d my friend.

eireannach666

Well the mice would either adapt or become extinct.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

i was using the familiar analogy of the 2D creatures striving to understand a 3D reality, and of course we not on 2D. 11 dimensions, well that is a far cry from the simplicity of e=mc2, and not elegant at all. Therefore I will abstain from commenting until a simpler explanation of the experimental observations comes into respectable assemblage. I think you can just keep adding on mathematical band-aids to incomplete theories to try and fix them, but you will end up with the same unwieldy mess as the epicycles were. Somewhere you are missing something if it has to be that complex to be true. Seem nature does not like waste and the simplest and most efficient designs are always the preferred methods of choice. Well I will let you know in another billion years or so whether I agree with the evolution theory, though of course anything is possible, theoretically speaking of course. Nice talking to you guys. I have to go, but I have thoroughly enjoyed passing the afternoon here with you gentlemen, and ladies!

James J

Wow, you guys have been busy while I was gone eh? Just for the record, we are ALL hypocrites at times. Myself included. None of us manage to ALWAYS keep up with the standards we set. We're human. We screw up. It happens. That's all there is to it. But as for the second law of thermodynamics, do we REALLY have to explain this again? This is applied in a CLOSED SYSTEM. Earth is NOT a closed system. Therefore it does not apply the way you think it does. It's just like someone once said: "Deists keep quoting the 2nd law, but do you know the other laws?" In most cases the answer is no. Since I do not know you and can't ask you face to face without giving you time to research the answers I can't prove what you do or don't know abut thermodynamics. But it seems that you don't know just from your previous statement. This is called an "educated guess". We use the same thing to determine what happened in the past when we don't have 100% evidence to prove what happened. Making an educated guess with the evidence you DO have available is better than making up a magical man to say: "He did it!" That's why we can assume that the beginning of everything was composed of the sum of everything in the universe. Because we can see that those things exist, and therefore it is logical to say that they could have been here before. We cannot see, feel, or even hear God. Not aloud anyway, not where EVERYONE can hear him. So to assume his existence is NOT a educated guess.

On another note, isn't it strange? When the Jews wanted to hear God's voice for themselves, rather than listen to what Moses said God said, because even they who believed knew that hey, he COULD be lying... God supposedly talked to them all, but they couldn't handle it. So a chosen few were able to stand and speak the words. That's interesting to me. They couldn't handle it? You mean God couldn't communicate in a voice that they could hear without being "special"? (Read: Coached by Moses ahead of time.) I thought God could do anything! Why CAN'T he control his voice? Even I can raise, lower, or use sound technology to change the sound of my voice. I can raise and lower it into and out of the human hearing range. And do the same with other people's or even other animals voices. An all powerful God CAN'T!? Wow. No wonder we don't believe in him.

eireannach666

@starman

Have a good one.

I will say this though. You said,"Seems nature does not like waste and the simplest and most efficient designs are always the preferred methods of choice."

Is this not NS/Evo you are describing? I think you just might not understand evolution. I dont mean that as an insult either , just think you should do some more research.

Slainte'

http://www.authorsden.com starman

The mice did adapt. Let's hope our ideas and theories will be so hardy and flexible to the changing environment of knowledge and not perish before they bear fruit and new generation of wisdom and knowledge to be reaped by it progenitors.

Funny, Ben Stein who is responsible for this thread is on TV right now talking about Free Score dot com, with cute evolutionarily generated squirrels watching the people get whacked on the head. I think I will chose the squirrels on this one and go find some more nuts, Lol, just kidding. :)

eireannach666

@starman

Did you forget about time/space-time itself as being an issue of our dimensionality?

http://www.authorsden.com starman

Kind of like this thread, multi-dimensional. Awesome analogy, Eireannach666. Cool name, BTW. What does it mean? I think the time/space issue being that not of an ether but of a seamless whole that flows and it being a matter of geometry that everything including the quantum spring forth from the quantum foam. Time is but secondary invention of mankind, not a primary dimension, although Einstein used the concept of it successfully to explain his theories quite elegantly.

Achems Razor

@ Starman:

That is something that I agree on, time is basically an illusion created to give a flow of motion.

Physics can best be described more eloquently without time being involved into the computations, especially QM.

James J

@ Zelda

I don't want to admit God is in control? This statement assumes much about me that you do not know. I would have spoken on it, but no one asked. However since you have so easily assumed I guess I should clear the record.

For you information, when I first lost my belief in my mothers insane church (called so by EVERYONE who isn't in it, even other believers) I simply believed that her particular church was wrong. I believed if I looked around hard enough, there was a church somewhere that could explain the problems I had found in the bible. That they could show me the correct interpretation, all I had to do was pray earnestly and God would show me the way.

This would have been far better than becoming an unbeliever, because then at least my family would be willing to talk to me about my beliefs, and listen to why I believed what I believed, even if only in the hopes of bringing me back to the fold. I of course intended to use this time to show them the REAL truth, the things they were missing. Then we could all rejoice together in the REAL truth. Funny thing is, every time I found another priest, in the same religion, in a different religion, no-one could answer my questions.

Not one. Not without resorting to "Well, the Lord works in mysterious ways." Or, "You have to have Faith". And a bunch of other ambiguous statements that say, "I don't know." In fact, I only ever found ONE priest who when he DIDN'T know, he would say, let me go and pray about it, and I tell you when God reveals it to me. I respect him. He gave the best answers I ever got. Unfortunately there were many questions he couldn't answer. I still speak to him about the bible, and he is the ONLY religious person I've met (in person) who will listen, actually CONSIDER what I say when I speak, and actively seek an answer when he doesn't know one offhand. Unfortunately he is getting on in age and will not be around much longer.

I will miss him when he goes. See, the problem is, that the more I looked for God, the more I couldn't see him. The more atheism seemed to be true. I resisted for a long time. Even went so far as to accept the Ancient Alien theory, because then well, God made the aliens! All because I knew that if the pressure was already bad, it'd be even worse if my family found out I didn't believe in ANY god anymore... They wouldn't just talk down about my beliefs without suitable discussion, or just look at me condescendingly whenever religion was brought up.

They'd shun me completely. You know why? Because the church taught them that their blood family wasn't their real family; only the people in their specific branch of Christianity were their family. And I really didn't want to face the world alone. I like Thanksgiving and birthdays. I like having people I can rely on when I'm in trouble, as long as I do the same for them. But I can't do it anymore. I've already begun preparing myself for the inevitable complete separation of myself from my birth family because I know it's coming.

I've seen it when my cousin left to become Muslim. Imagine me, even worse, having no God? I'd be a demon possessed black sheep. Because you know demons are to blame for everything, from getting sick, to being born deformed, to anything else you can think of. So no, it's not a fear of God being in control that makes me not believe. I WANTED God to be in control, because at least then I'd have a scapegoat for everything. It's harder to accept responsibility for my actions than to say: "Hey, God controls everything right? Even bad things are according to his plan. So me doing ______ is God's fault. It's what he wants." I wish God was in control of everything. Then I wouldn't have to dread the eventual "coming out" that I'm going to have to do soon so I don't go mad from leading a double life around my family.

eireannach666

Eireannach - Gaelic for Irish as in a man or woman 666 because its fun to poke the religees at all times!

4d - three of them fixed( X,Y,Z) in relation eachother and one moving away at C.

Basically sayin that every spot in 3d is expanding into the 4d sphere assuming a radius = Plank lenth. 4d expands at C, making photon velocity also C.

If one wished to be at a "stand still" 4d you would have to move at C through 3d. Like befor the 4d is expanding at C through the stationary 3d.

Just so you know we are 4d

eireannach666

@Achems

Well I say Time/space-time is totally relevant even though it doesnt fit quite as nicely but still it cant be overlooked as a mathematical element since everything we do is based on our perceived idea of time.

Achems Razor

@ eire:

Yes, time is woven into the fabric of space and together they make spacetime as we know it.

I always seem to go beyond that though, erroneously thinking people should already know what is I am talking about. (LOL)

Was going beyond that to other theories, Julian Barbuor's, end of time theory, for one. Won't go any further on this then, don't want to complicate matters.

betty

i like it how everybody becomes scientists, philosophers and god experts after such movies. cant anyone say. i dont know?

Achems Razor

@ betty:

If we say we "don't know", then what do we talk about?

http://www.authorsden.com starman

@ Betty:

I have said that above to Achem that "the only thing I know is that I don't know." Betty, my late mother's name, very nice.

Thanks for making my point!

Starman

James J

@ betty

That is what we say. We just also include that we don't believe in something we don't have any evidence for. Why would we? It's like believing in unicorns. Sure they *could* exist, and be hiding from us... We don't *know* that they aren't real... But people in general don't believe in them.

See the problem again comes from being unable to ever prove that something *doesn't* exist. It's just not possible. Therefore you can either believe on faith, or look at the lack of evidence and not believe until evidence shows up.

Saying you don't know without saying which seems more logical is just a cop out really. You don't want to say it's true, because you can't prove it, but you don't want to be ostracized by saying it isn't true either. That's my opinion anyway, based on personal experience.

If anyone else can honestly say that they've said they don't know to something that no evidence for exists, I'd like to hear when and why they said it. Was it say, for a child about Santa? That doesn't count for obvious reasons. Can anyone give a real time they've ever argued in support of something that had no actual evidence? Without God being involved? Without it simply being out of pride and not wanting to admit to being wrong? When you weren't a stubborn child who simply believed because you wanted to? No? Then why do the same for God? Seems like when it comes to him we're still stubborn children refusing to admit that there was no monster under the bed, or in the closet. For some crazy reason, we actually BELIEVE it's there...

Achems Razor

@ Starman:

Well, of course nobody hardly knows anything, so does that mean we should not try?

It was nice talking to you, am off this particular site, will go back on other doc's to where they are still asking questions.

Chow.

http://www.authorsden.com starman

@ Achem: Nice talking to you too. I actually made a comment in support of you several comments back, but it has been held up in moderation for some reason, though it was quite courteous to you and I thought respectful. May be one day you will get it. Hope you hang in there with your beliefs and do not let anyone else ever shake you up for standing up for yourself.

Achems Razor

@ Starman:

Thank you for your kind words, did not say was off TDF, just this doc. for now.
We can still get together on other doc"s. eire, me, and others are on the wormhole ones right now.

Chow.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

Ok... I've deleted around 200 comments from this post. The discussion deteriorated heavily.

All future inappropriate comments will be also deleted.

Rob

Science doesn't pretend to know all the facts and neither do I, however I can only come to a conclusion based upon those facts I have observed/learned. Said facts point me towards the Theory of Evolution, but as is evident in the name, this is only a theory, a very credible theory which utilises evidence spanning the sciences but a theory nontheless. People who belive in ID are entitled to their belief, why shouldn't they? They have access to all the evidence I do and they still come to an alternate conclusion, good for them. I for one believe that taking any scientific theory (i.e. evolution) as gospel is inherently unscientific as it allows for the stagnation of scientific progress and discovery. Had Newton been held as untouchable Einstien may not have made the great discoveries he had, simply because he would have been shouted down for heresy. However until a more suitable, less flawed theory is developed or more evidence is found, I believe in Evolution. I'm not going to get into a discussion of faith as personal faith has nothing whatsoever to do with me, it's your choice which deity/being/technology you choose to devote your life to. What I am concerned with is this ridiculous attitude on both sides where they cannot countenance the thought of there being people who do not hold their own views. Accept the fact that there is a difference of opinion, hold debates and discussion if you will but treat the it as if this was any other scientific debate amongst peers, instead of the personal jibes and constant sneering at one another.

Conn

The implication that an atheist society is more prone to acts of cruelty because they are simply enacting "survival of the fittest" is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard.

1st & 2nd Centuries - Christians persecuted by Rome because of their faith

8th Century - Charlemagne's campaign across Europe to bring Christianity to them

11th Century - Crusades against "Godless" Arabs

12th Century - Jihad against "Godless" Christians

16th Century - Religious wars rage across Europe including St Bartolomew's Day Massacre and the reign of Mary I

17th Century - Salem Witch Trials

The list goes on and on. Instead of pointing fingers are Darwinism as a cause of the horrors of the 20th century, perhaps it should be wise to say that being unpleasant to each other is a human condition and note that an excuse will always be found for acts of cruelty whether it be religion, power, greed, sex or Darwinism.

NR_Chemicals

Wow.

I'm extremely surprised by how many people here, agreeing or disagreeing with the film, are claiming to know something. Do you really know that evolution is a fact? You were there? How incredible. You know your religion is truth? Intriguing!

Please, stop this ignorant bu**sh*t. You don't "know" the truth and I highly doubt we will ever find out. Not in this life time, anyways (and I’m not implying there is another one).

Why aren’t people happy with a simple approach of just asking questions? That’s where the fun is. The answers are great sometimes but true science is about asking questions. We won’t get anywhere otherwise. Everyone is so focused on getting answers. So desperate that they will accept anything that makes sense to them and makes them feel comfortable.

I can’t speak for other professions but as a chemist, I’ve learned that there is sufficient beauty out there in the world, at our finger tips, available without the knowledge of its origin, or ours, for that matter. To believe that we will ever truly understand how it all started seems farfetched. Has anyone considered that we simply can’t possibly comprehend it? That maybe our feeble minds aren’t supposed to grasp our creation process? It sounds like I’m saying I don’t care or there is no point in questioning but that’s wrong. I do care and I suppose it would be the ultimate discovery. I just find more beauty in what is created already, rather than unearthing what or who created everything and why or how.

I digress. My point is this:

This film was designed to do one specific thing which happens to be something overlooked more often than not in this thread. It isn't saying science is wrong or that ID is right or religion is wrong. Not specifically, at least. However, it may seem like that at times. Stay focused. It isn't trying to disprove anything or change anyone’s beliefs. It's sending a very clear, very simple message. THINK FREELY AND UNBIASED AS SCIENTISTS OR WE’RE DOOMED!

Many good comments on this thread but oh, so many i*****.

Achems Razor

@NR_Chemicals:

Right! you say you are a chemist, and then do not want to delve into the mysteries of life, why? is that through laziness or ignorance?
You want to let everything lay?

I thought chemistry was all about the mysteries of life?
I think you are no more of a chemist, than I am an astronaut!
The onus is on you for proof by the way, since you brought it up.

And another thing, do not tell people what they may or may not write about!

D-K

@NR_Chemicals:

Surely appreciating the beauty seems like a good cause, however, just asking questions without having a drive to answer them is asinine. I'll agree that science is not about knowing all the answers (now) but it is about understanding the processes that make up our reality.

Science is the tool we use to understand our surroundings, our past and our future, science guides and shapes society as a whole. The consumers are the ones who need not answer the questions, they're the ones who can enjoy the fruits of scientific labor without having to be aware of the actual process involved. How many people know how a remote works, or even a car, yet they use these things every day.

Science observes, creates and understands, society consumes. Such is modern life. If anything, there could me more understanding. Don't mistake ignorance for humility.

Epicurus

@NR_chemicals.....as a chemist how would you feel if Ben Stein put out a movie saying chemistry is just a field of elitists who have nothing but THEORIES (using the word as "idea") and instead try to push for the teaching of ALCHEMY. and when people who tried to teach alchemy in schools were fired they cried over it.

how would you feel? would you say they are just asking questions?

asking questions is fuel to science...however asking the wrong questions is ONLY good for knowing which path is a waste of time...brooding on those wrong questions and insisting they are right is NOT science.

another example....lets say ben stein wanted to argue that storks bring babies and not what we know as reproduction...these arent questions...they are dogmatic beliefs held ONLY because these people are religious.

now if you ask if i know evolution is a fact? YES. i know it is just like i know germ theory is a fact. YES i have seen evolution and you can too! but do you have to see evolution to know its a fact? no you dont. just like you dont have to see germs or stars form or black holes to know they are there. as a scientist you ought to know this.

ncbi . nlm . nih . gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632098/?tool=pmcentrez

D-K

@Epic:

You might know this, I have been pondering as of late, searching and firing queries left and right, yet no answer befalls me.

What is the general succesrate of DNA "copying" and what drives the process? Are cells basically autonomous or are they driven by the subconscious mind?

Epicurus

@D-K, hard question. dont know the exact number for successful DNA copying however i found this which, since you are so good at math, might give you an idea.

"The human genome comprises about 3 x 109 base pairs of DNA, and the extent of human genetic variation is such that no two humans, save identical twins, ever have been or will be genetically identical. Between any two humans, the amount of genetic variation—biochemical individuality—is about 0.1 percent. This means that about one base pair out of every 1,000 will be different between any two individuals. Any two (diploid) people have about 6 x 106 base pairs that are different..."

the process is driven by proteins and radiation.

cells are driven also by proteins, and amino acids. they do what they must to thrive and survive, independent of our brain.

D-K

@Epi: Thanks, that actually helped a lot.

http://speakgreaterthings.wordpress.com Kim

a little dry at times, but good.

http://speakgreaterthings.wordpress.com Kim

a little dry at times, but good for the most part.

greg

wow, this movie was god awful.

heWinked

The nitty-gritty of the argument is that neither side has the definitive answer and therefore, neither side is completely correct. Herein lies the crux of the issue/problem for the people/scientists who want to move forward (and not be stuck in the argument). I enjoyed hearing all of the opinions expressed in this documentary and felt a "shedding" of my own bias' as most of them cannot be scientifically proven ;)

young

Just want to clear this up since noone else is. The 20th century was the bloodiest century in terms of the amount of people killed not the percentage. Percentage wise it was the safest century for a human to ever exist. The farther society gets from GOD the more peaceful we have become. It a cold hard fact.

PEACE

DC

Lavender you clearly do not know the theory of evolution.
it has nothing to do with how life itself came into existence.
that would be Abiogenesis or other proposed hypotheses. the Theory of Evolution deals with the Evolution of one Species into another Species and is backed up by a huge fossil record and observation of evolving species in labs and in nature.

steve

Ha what the hell was that. It was like it was made for children. We need to get naturally selective on Ben Stein is what we need. There was no evidence shown for either side. It was just one sides reaction to the other. What is the point in that?

Also, it's a clear case of Godwins law. The fact that Hitler believed in Darwin is completely irrelevant. Darwin comes up with a theory trying to explain why we evolved in the way we did, and later Hitler uses this to justify killing a s@#$ load of people. Why would Hitler's later actions have anything to do with the validity of Darwin's theory? Unless we have some sort of 'cat in a box' situation going on, but we shouldn't get into that here.

craig

Mainstream University education is riddled with theories and devoid of facts as a standard.

Apart from 1+1=2 there's not much else you can really be so sure about. No science deals in fact.

Alex B

I think the biggest problem with the debate between Darwinism and intelligent design, is simply labeling theories into only these two categories. Believing in evolution explains a lot about natural progression of species, but does not answer the origin of the big bang, and it would seem that any attempt to rationalize that origin is considered Creationism. Intelligent Design is not limited to the biblical extremists who think the world is 6000 years old and that dinosaur fossils are a test from "god."

Quantum Physics is stepping into a direction that includes consciousness into the equation. This could bridge the gap between science and religion. I see the points made by religious people, in that something cannot come from nothing, and I also see that it is highly unlikely there is an old man in the sky casting love and judgment on the world. I think the scientific method is important and has provided us with more than any religion has, but I also think that to label scientific works that allude to some type of intelligence embedded within the fabric of space and time as hogwash is wrong. To stand by the scientific method, you should adhere to its conditions and make no assumptions or accusations. Religions today will prove themselves false through the scientific method, so it is unnecessary to retaliate by "burning people at the stake" when they try to express their views. It's time the academic community of science be the "bigger man" by allowing such religious people speak so that they can put their faith through the scientific method and be proven wrong. All scientific works that present credible evidence will also be allowed to make themselves present, and by this, together we can discover greater aspects of physics as we know it.

420 Vision

What ? How does intelligent design have anything to do with whether or not the holocost happened ? ( ref @16min 31sec ) ?

Ben Stein is clearly a waste of time.

Andy Kelly

Intelligent design is not discounted by top scientists. Should intelligent design automatically mean "God" The Big Bang is God everything else is man made conjecture. I believe in the big bang but not in any ancient folklore.

roy

The film is about freedom of speech, thought and belief, and how those freedoms have been covertly removed. The arguemants within these comments show me how stupid people have become. I might not believe what you believe but I would fight to allow you to say them. that IS what freedom is about.

Epicurus

Roy, if i wanted to teach in a science class that storks bring babies instead of what we know about reproduction what would you say?

if i wanted to teach the native american stories in science class about the creation of the earth what would you say?

maybe these things SHOULD NOT be taught alongside science since they simply are not science. Maybe they should be taught in ancient mythology or in philosophy of religion.

in science telling someone they are wrong and cant show how they are right is not the same as not allowing them any opportunity. they have had AMPLE opportunity to show their evidence and have failed to do so. even so far as going to court and trying to show how it is valid science and failing to do so.

being able to teach children myths as facts is NOT freedom. if anything that is taking the freedoms away from the children to grow into critical thinking free adults.

would you feel equally as strong if hindus fought to teach their creation story in school science class?

Patrick Leonard

Since the scientific theory of neo-evolution states that self replicating creatures evolved from inorganic chemistry but they have not scientifically proven or replicated the process, they should not be in control of the educational process. Panspermia theory is the age old argument; which came first, the chicken or the egg.
For those who wish to know, I don't believe the stories in the Bible are anything but Midrashim, stories told to fill in the gaps, morality stories with a dash of historical truth built in.
Yes, I believe God created the heavens and the Earth; I don't know exactly how. I also don't believe God exists the way we understand existence. The idea that we live in Flatworld and cannot see the higher dimensional (Hashamaim) world does not negate its existence.
Since the Evolutionists cannot replicate life from lifelessness anymore than the Michaelson-Morley experiment proved the existence of an interstellar ether, they should not be allowed to spout their "theory" as "Fact".

Patrick Leonard

420 vision:
obviously you weren't paying attention. The Nazi Death camps were a logical extension of eugenics, which is a logical conclusion of Evolution. By directing evolution, we can selectively breed superior humans; by selectivly culling the herd, we can prevent undesired offspring. The Nazi Death camps were created to purify Germany from what they believed to be evolutionally inferior breeds of humans.

D-K

@Patrick: "Evolution" is a collective term.

Micro evolution is a fact, as it has been observed, verified and catalogued. Macro evolution is an extrapolation, as it logically cannot be observed unless we instigate.

Obviously even if we instigate, one could still make the argument of different parameters and ecological differences, but that's besides the point.

Micro evolution is (observable) fact.

D-K

Also, reductio ad Hitlerum is a silly, silly thing.

Curse you Godwin..

Rob

You can't blame evolution for the Holocaust. Firstly who is to say that one particular race of humans is superior to the rest, Hitler's attitude and thoughts on this subject resulted from a mis-interpreted notion of the Ayran race. Secondly, yes, evolution can be applied in a very selective way to create stronger humans but simply because the original thought is in place doesn't mean that a horrfic outcome is logical anymore than preaching "love thy neighbour" would result in a world Utopia.
It irritate me when people equate evolution and athism with a lack of morals and consequentially terrible acts. Humans are cruel and sadistic, if they didn't kill in the name of "Eugenics" or "Communism", they would kill in the name of "Jesus" or "Allah". Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

D-K

@Rob:

You should check out "Through the wormhole - Is there a Creator?" It has a nice discussion on reiligious morality and atheistic morality in the comments sectio.

someone

To all people of faith, there is no conflict between science and faith.Remember both are created by God.Scientific people have put in a lot of work to find the answer. we too must put in equal effort to understand God's work.Pray to God to understanding every scientific fact.Scientific people can only understand it one way but we are different.We understand the physical world and the spiritual world .Remember no matter how far science advance there is no conflict with the bible.

peelingpaint

@someone
I used to agree with you, but now I think that neo-darwinism may be based on philosophically materialist premises- i.e. that random mutation and selection can be creative. Whilst it's obviously possible to make testable predictions with that premise, and so it's a way of doing science, I'm no longer convinced that it's impossible to explain the relevant data 'scientifically' with rival premises.

D-K

@Peelingpaint:

Darwinism is a misnoma, a more accurate discription would be neo-evolutionism. Darwin, though brilliant, is irrelevant to the theory itself.

Would you mind elaborating on the following; "Whilst it’s obviously possible to make testable predictions with that premise, and so it’s a way of doing science, I’m no longer convinced that it’s impossible to explain the relevant data ‘scientifically’ with rival premises"

someone

@peelingpaint

you are right.very soon science will reduce everything into a mathematical formula.the more beautiful the equation is the more "design" it will look.

peelingpaint

@ D-K
I agree that whoever is most associated with an idea is irrelevant to the truth of it, but 'neo-darwinism' is a more accurate term than 'neo-evolutionism', because Darwin is famous for proposing that random variation, in conjunction with, selection by the environment can explain all biological form. Neo-darwinism and 'the modern synthesis' are accepted shorthand for the theoretical framework that's premised on his idea, which also includes the knowledge of genetics that was not available to him. 'Evolution' just means change, and even if specifically applied to biology, a theory of *how* that change occurs is necessarily Darwinian. Lamarck had another theory of 'evolution'.

As regards the sentence you quoted, I meant that if you believe that the accumulation of small functional changes, via random mutation and natural selection, is the explanation for the morphological and genetic similarities(and differences) between species, then those similarities and differences that you already observe will make sense in that light and you will also be able to make successful predictions or retrodictions about links that have not yet been observed on that premise.

But... the fact that one premise is consistent with a lot of the data does not mean that it is the only premise that is, nor that it's the premise that is consistent with most of the data.

'Common design' may or may not be consistent with the data, but if it *were*,the successful predictions and retrodictions of neo-darwinism would also be explicable by *that* premise.

Perhaps all species came into being in a process of progression from form to form (though not necessarily in a smooth gradual way), and that would explain why animals that look alike are genetically alike, but that idea alone would not logicaly imply that a darwinist mechanism was responsible for that process.

peelingpaint

@D-K

Perhaps there is both common design, *and* a kind of evolution. Possibly there are pre-existing templates that become actualised successively.

I know that's speculative, but I'm not sure that anyone's really demonstrated that random mutation and selection can create complexity. Dawkins' 'methinks it is like a weasel' analogy is not valid imo, because the strings of nonsense it takes to arrive at that sentence via (intentional) selection and randomisation are not functional as sentences, whereas all living things must be functional to survive- which is one of the central planks of Darwin's theory.

So, though it may not be clear how intelligence might manifest itself to create species, I believe that the idea that it does is the philosophical complement to Darwin's theory, and it's no more clear that random mutation and selection could be the explanation.

D-K

@peelingpaint: I agree that evolution is simply "change" but evolutionism implies change of biological nature in conjunction with Darwin's idea of evolution.

"As regards the sentence you quoted, I meant that if you believe that the accumulation of small functional changes, via random mutation and natural selection, is the explanation for the morphological and genetic similarities(and differences) between species, then those similarities and differences that you already observe will make sense in that light and you will also be able to make successful predictions or retrodictions about links that have not yet been observed on that premise."

This I disagree with, the fact that it "makes sense" is by no means a/the only logical outcome. One can predict a logical outcome, one cannot simply predict something that makes sense.

For instance, a plesiosaurus as a dinosaur/fish link makes sense, but it is by no means the only logical link(outcome).

I like your though-process though.

D-K

"So, though it may not be clear how intelligence might manifest itself to create species, I believe that the idea that it does is the philosophical complement to Darwin’s theory, and it’s no more clear that random mutation and selection could be the explanation."

Aye, but the fact that it's equally possible does not put it on equal footing.

D-K

I'd like to rescind that last comment, I should probably phrase that better.

Patrick Leonard

The problem with the scientific community in general is they do not follow their own rules. The problem with religions is they do not allow scientific rules to apply. Both systems rely on a democratic process. They (each within it's own sphere of influence) consider a certain theory or writing and give it a thumbs-up or thumbs-down.

The most probable scientific explaination is that our organic chemistry is star stuff created naturally in the Oort Cloud, and reached Earth via comets. This existence of organic chemicals in these comets is detectable through spectral analysis of a comet's coma.

The complexity of organic lifeforms is probably too complicated for human beings to figure out; the mathematics of organic self replication must follow a set of rules that can be duplicated in a sterile lab environment, but humans are too stupid to figure it out. Such theories may require super-intelligence, artificial in nature, to be able to analyze all relavent data and form a mathematic model to explain the observed or theorized phenomenon. Basically, it will require us to build massive facilities at huge expense to provide us with an answer to the question.

But my belief in God has nothing to do with evolution, creationism, religious zealotry, or any other clap trap. It comes from phenomenon that I have personnaly observed or personnally experieced. There is nothing I can say to an atheist to convince them what I know to be true, anymore than I can convince an spiritual person that their creation stories are not scientific.

To theorize the possibility of a higher-dimensional being organized "our" universe in such a way that self-replicating lifeforms could exist is no less scientific than believing life on Earth formed in the Oort cloud, that aliens planted life on earth, or that small mammals evolved from lizards, then evolved to apes, then evolved to Us.

The statistical possibility of us and the complexity of us is so extremely remote that some scientists are studying the possibility that we are not accidental, that we were designed. This follows the rules of science. The scientist observes phenomenon, forms a hypothesis, and seeks to prove the hypothesis through experimentation. This is the nature of science. All we prove when we physically alter an organism in a laboratory is that we can artificially force mutation. Until the mechanism for spontaneous creation of organic from inorganic life is truly understood can we take a step further, and discount intelligent design in its present state. Further, the discovery of this mechanism still does not discount the possibility of deity, as higher planes of existence can be shown to exist. If the presence of Gravity and our complete ignorance of its cause does not prove that we do not understand the effects of higher planes of existence on our few dimensions...well...
Evolutionists should avoid making a religion out of science since they are obviously only "experts" in one field of study. If you would like me to continue....just say so.

For those wondering...religion is hope in a world of despair.

Patrick Leonard

D-K09/20/2010 at 13:12 @Patrick: “Evolution” is a collective term.

Micro evolution is a fact, as it has been observed, verified and catalogued. Macro evolution is an extrapolation, as it logically cannot be observed unless we instigate.

Obviously even if we instigate, one could still make the argument of different parameters and ecological differences, but that’s besides the point.

Micro evolution is (observable) fact.

Adaptation is not evolution. An e-coli colony that adapts to a certain anti-biotic (natural or synthetic) is still an E-coli, not another species.

Patrick Leonard

Oh, and for those who want to discount the existence of Jesus (the movie trailer so prominently displayed on this website), just remember that He was written about by Tacitus, a roman polytheist and politician. There are a number of artifacts attesting to his existence contemporaneous with his time. All else is revisionist history, or as the ancients would put it, Midrash.

Patrick Leonard

Look, microbiological analogy

I take a chevy engine and put it in a car built by Ford, hence Ford does not exist! Look, automobiles keep changing form, getting more and more complex! Mechanical Evolution! Forget the level of technology required to sequence DNA, you can do it in a pile of Goo! You don't need a sequencer!
Since it can be done with a multimillion dollar facility, it must have happened quite by accident in the bottom of an oceanic rift zone! Maybe it was the comets that smashed into the earth at 20,000 mph that created us.
Look, it's quite simple...you cannot reproduce the results, it didn't happen that way. Such is the nature of science.

Achems Razor

@Patrick Leonard:

For someone not to worried, you sure are going out of your way to try to convince people of your creationism.

All you are saying is old tired stuff that has been brought forward before. Ad Naseum:

All you have is words, no proof of any kind, means nothing. We do not have to prove there is no gods, the onus is on you religee's to prove there is.

Check out Tacitus, there is no empirical proof/evidence that your Jesus existed, unless you want to believe the bias bible scholars, and don't go by Josephus, known to be a forgery.
You really have no leg to stand on, so give it up already!

D-K

Macro-evolution is incompatible with a human's perception of time. Ape-habilis-erectus-sapiens are micro-evolutionary steps, yet the start and end-result clearly have diverged in genomes enough to be classified as another species. Macroevolution.

Take the time the earth has been here, ranging from 6,4 billion years to 6000, depending on your philosophic position, take into account 80 years for a human life, and put in perspective how small the chance is that any given human observes, recognizes and catalogues macro evolution.

Speciation is elusive considered from a human perspective, but to see a creationist hammer on the lack of evidence amuses me.

Genetic distinction is tricky business anyway.

D-K

Also, I've never even heard of Tacitus...

Worth looking into?

Patrick Leonard

I say again it is still an e-coli.
as for other bacterium, merely stating that a bacterium is a new species reeks of grandstanding. can the bacterium still consume its natural food? has it shifted exclusively to nylon waste products? maybe they taste better.
An example:
Many indian tribes used to (and some still do) consume ground acorns. The stuff is foul. Given a choice, they eat flour or corn. Acorns are a survival fool. Does changing a diet change a species? Humans do it all the time, yet they are still humans.
Further I have taken a number of courses in science while at college, including Genetics, Astronomy, and Geology. Please hold your insults.

over the edge

@patrick
macroevolution is usually just microevolution happening many many tines. If you are looking for a "crockaduck" science never claimed that happened. we have entire museums and universities full of evidence. now concerning tacitus he wasn't born til 56 ad so any account isn't first hand and the earliest surviving manuscript containing the passage is an 11th century Christian scribal copy that refers to Christianity as and i quote "mischievous superstition". i have no problem with you believing in whatever religion you choose but science is the testing and explaining the natural world. science does not take a stance on supernatural causes for anything so by definition religion has no place in science.

Epicurus

@Patrick, the ecoli is certainly NOT the same ecoli. it is different enough from the original generation ~31,000 generations ago that it is a new species. as i said. what makes YOU think YOU are educated enough in this field to make that distinction of what is and isnt a new species?????

Also the bacterium didnt just evolve the ability to EAT nylon, it evolved added information in the genome which was beneficial to the organism and hadnt existed in nature before...i dont think you went to the link i provided. instead you actually had the nerve to argue something you know nothing about. that is utterly amazing.

and im glad you took a couple intro level science courses at a college. but all it shows is that you didnt pay any attention and obviously didnt pick any of those as a major.

Patrick Leonard

Here we go again....manipulating dna in a laboratory is not "Natural Selection", "Random mutation", or "Environmental adaptation". It is Artificial manipulation and is a proof of Intelligent Design. Although I find some of Darwin's observations interesting, especially about selective breeding, I do not particularly agree about the far reaching conclusions he made as a result.
I recommend reading the interesting book "The Edge of Evolution, The search for the limits of Darwinism" by Dr. Michael J. Behe, Free Press, Simon and Schuster Inc.,2007.

His analogy of evolution not as an arms race, but as trench warfare, and the proofs provided are quite compelling. If scientists spent as much time manipulating the dna of Malaria to supplant the present deadly breeds, millions of lives can be saved.

over the edge

@ patrick
Dr. Michael J. Behe took his ideas to court in "Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District" and not only lost but lost to a christian judge appointed by bush who supports Behe. his idea of irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum "cientists regard this argument as having been disproved in the light of research dating back to 1996 as well as more recent findings. They point out that the basal body of the flagella has been found to be similar to the Type III secretion system (TTSS), a needle-like structure that pathogenic germs such as Salmonella and Yersinia pestis use to inject toxins into living eucaryote cells. The needle's base has ten elements in common with the flagellum, but it is missing forty of the proteins that make a flagellum work. Thus, this system negates the claim that taking away any of the flagellum's parts would render it useless. On this basis, Kenneth Miller notes that, "The parts of this supposedly irreducibly complex system actually have functions of their own." (taken from wikki) . i have a suggestion for you to watch "Id on trial" by nova the id proponents who went got pummeled by real science and many of the so called ID experts refused to testify or go on the record. and at the end of the trial the judge suggested that some of the id people be brought up on perjury charges.

peelingpaint

@over the edge
I don't think it's that clear that the TTSS actually is ancestral to the BF. Even if it were, it's a big jump from 10 proteins to 40. Removing one or two parts and unearthing a functional system would make a more convincing case for a neo-darwinian mechanism being responsible for the BF, than removing 40.
I don't see why an irreducibly complex machine couldn't use parts that can be used in other machines-- by that definition *no* system is IR.
The opinion of Judge Jones is not that important in this- is he a great scientist or philosopher? Should this be decided like a divorce or something?
If anyone wants to be on the winning side in this, they should jump onto the bandwagon of people questioning neo-darwinian mechanisms as the whole story, as many secular biologists like Stuarts Newman and Kaufmann are.
Whether ID can be a scientific hypothesis is another matter. I personally think it might well be, and the whole 'science can't invoke the supernatural' spiel is vague and question-begging.
I guess when and if random mutation and selection is found not to have complete power to explain form, then it's supporters will say that they were being intellectually honest and following the evidence. It's good to look for explanations. It's good not to be dismissive as well.

over the edge

@ patrick
if i came across as dismissive then i apologize. you stated "Removing one or two parts and unearthing a functional system would make a more convincing case for a neo-darwinian mechanism being responsible for the BF" i will try the next quote is taken from Ussery, David a biochemist "The bacterial flagellum is not even irreducible. Some bacterial flagella function without the L- and P-rings. In experiments with various bacteria, some components (e.g. FliH, FliD (cap), and the muramidase domain of FlgJ) have been found helpful but not absolutely essential (Matzke 2003). One third of the 497 amino acids of flagellin have been cut out without harming its function (Kuwajima 1988). Furthermore, many bacteria have additional proteins that are required for their own flagella but that are not required in the "standard" well-studied flagellum found in E. coli. Different bacteria have different numbers of flagellar proteins (in Helicobacter pylori, for example, only thirty-three proteins are necessary to produce a working flagellum), so Behe's favorite example of irreducibility seems actually to exhibit quite a bit of variability in terms of numbers of required parts ". now if this doesn't show you that behe was wrong then we will have to agree to disagree. you are right that jones is not a scientist but i used the exanple that i did because the documentary i alluded to has scientists refuting behe's arguments. the science can't invoke the supernatural is at the core of science if it cannot be tested and observed science doesn't try to explain it. that statement isn't stating you are wrong it just states it is outside the field of science.

Janet

Ben Stein - you are an evil, evil man. I know you are smart, so you must know how you are distorting facts, creating straw man arguments, and perverting the truth. Shame on you for this film.

peelingpaint

@patrick
I would like to point out that it wasn't patrick who made the post you are addressing, but ME--- peelingpaint. That's as much for patrick's benefit as mine, as I think I was a tad gushing.
I still stand by the points I made however. My impression is that there is that not all of secular academia finds neo-darwinism as unquestionable as Dawkins, Miller, Dennett, Scot, etc etc.. would have us believe. Look into the Altenberg conference if you don't believe this.
Most, if not all, of the 'Altenberg 16' would rather look for a physical law than invoke a teleological explanation, so that's why I say ID is a different issue.
However, having have read Meyer's latest book, I agree with him, that to invoke either the effect of random mutation and selection *or* the action of intelligence are equally unobservable hypotheses in one sense. Only supporting evidence for them can in any way be observed.
I also don't believe that all metaphysical questions can be settled empirically, since the interpretation of experiments requires a metaphysical premise in the 1st place.
I'll have to get back to you about the research you alluded to, but did you mean 497 proteins of *all* flagella- as in different proteins of various *different* flagella *totalling* 497? It's not clear to me what that implies.
TBH, I don't see the relevance of the fact that different flagella are constructed differently at all.
Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, but I'm fairly confident that I'm not, and that a paradigm shift is a-comin'!

Patrick Leonard

I gather from Behe's book is not just irreducible complexity, but the statistical possibility that such complex structures could be naturally and randomly acquired. There is something going on to kick start the self assembly that we don't understand.
The finds such as the Murchison Meteorites (roids?) in 1969 definitely prove that complex organic molecules do exist in space.
Facinating stuff. Where did it come from? is it ejecta from a massive meteor strike in earth's past?
The math of the problem is what is getting me. It must be possible to "create" life from the inorganic, for it was done. Both scientists and the clergy must agree on this.
The problem is the math. There must be a causative to make even organic compounds self replicate. Like a logic/decision matrix, there must be a series of events that took place. Since volcanic activity, ultraviolet radiation, electrical discharge, and frozen conditions all can affect amino acid assembly, we just have to replicate the processes and prove it is a purely natural phenomenon. If it cannot be replicated in the controlled environment of a laboratory, how could it have happened in a mud puddle?
Even procaryotic genesis or eucaryotic genesis seems an insurmountable hurdle for nature to vault.
There is a possibility with an underlying space-time geometry (responsible for things like tornadoes, hurricanes, whirlpools, subatomic particle spirals) related to Fibonacci sequences and (AM I REALLY SAYING THIS?) the Golden Ratio (phi) involved that kick starts helical spiraling and self replication. With a natural underlying geometry, such things as rna and dna may be as complicated as spinning cotton. But this has to be proven. NOTHING IN SCIENCE CAN BE TAKEN ON FAITH. And: Anything that is taken on faith is not science.
I cannot believe a theory as fact without proof. That is probably why I am not a scientist. The "intelligencia" require that I just take their assumptions and speculations as proofs or evidence.
The reason I bring up Behe's book is the statistics involved. Of most fascinating interest is the human-malaria war. Certain changes should have taken place in humans and in the malaria bug over the time frame given and they did not.
Physics and its ever changing convolutions show the more you know, the less you know. With physics, even math has limitations.

So far I haven't seen any proofs of Abiogenesis in the lab or otherwise, although we are tantalizingly close. We may be witnessing abiogenesis going on all around us but cannot differentiate it from the higher bacterialogical lifeforms because it is getting consumed as fast as it is being "created". Random strings of Rna may be floating around out there and gobbled up as easily as we eat a hot dog. This is speculation, not proof.

Even ID is speculation, a theory, and unproven. We just have to wait and see what advances in science and mathematics can show.

Patrick Leonard

Jari, you generalize too much!

what you basically stated is the more educated you are, the more likely that evolution started in abiogenesis, and the less educated you are, the more likely you are to find a simpler answer.

There are guys like me who are educated in a number of different disciplines and have not specialized. I am not a Phd(OMG) but understand the arguments of evolution. Further, I personally am willing to compromise and accept certain premeses such as "common ancestry". ID is a much older theory than abiogenesis, and finds its roots in religion. To ask a person to discard their beliefs and traditions, and to accept the ever changing dehumanizing assertions of nature is unsafe at best. With the traditions and beliefs that comes with religion, there are also moral codes of conduct. Without these, society cannot move forward but descends into tyranny or anarchy (See examples of Soviet Russia, Communist China)
Maybe what we need is an annual ID/EVO EXPO where the scientists and religious meet to show new evidence, expound on old evidence, and party to the sounds of the lates rock bands and the ridicule of prominent comedians. EVOID Expo? Devoid expo? Kind of like a Star Trek convention, we can see, meet, listen to emmerse ourselves in the science of science and the faith of faith.

Patrick Leonard

As far as Tacitus is concerned, and with his date of birth, He acquired the knowlege of the individual through information available to him at the time, information in records extant at the time which are no longer available and not related to Biblical or religious letters of the time.

As far as my education is concerned...Is that how you win arguments? by belittling the intelligence of your opponent? And where in anything that I have written will you find me stating the Biblical Creation story as fact?

As for me and many "religious" types, I consider the ancient stories as morality stories with a dash of truth. For example, the original story of creation, translated as simply as possible from ancient Hebrew, gives much support for Panspermia. I personally believe that "creation" is much more subtle than we understand at present.
I could argue that the creation of man from the dust of the earth is the literary equivalent of Darwinism, that it is in a mud puddle that all life was "created" and through billions of years of evolution "we" came into being. I do not however, for faith is not science.
To insult another in an argument only causes the hearer to turn away from you and spurn your argument.
I am glad to see actual evidence being put forward here, but the movie talks about the ostricization of scientists who study ID from academia. The Church used to burn people at the stake for heresy, now "Science" does much the same. Ben Stein is arguing that such abuses of power should be avoided, even scorned. I agree with Ben Stein, though I doubt I would necessarily agree with "Creationists" on any number of topics(or even Ben Stein for that matter)including the creation of the Earth and of man.

Patrick Leonard

Sarah

Religion provided nothing?

From religion(s) we get the birth of science.
From religion we get the measure of time and angle (Mesopotamia, ancient summerians, Base 60 mathematics)
From religion we get clocks with which we measure time(clocks invented in the "Dark" ages to inform monks when to pray).
Hospitals and libraries owe their existence to religion.
From religion we get concepts like equality and morality.
To say that all medical cures come from science ignores a moral code that causes men to help complete strangers. Was the first vaccine against smallpox created by a "scientist" or a "religious" person?

What we have here is what we in the military call a "Communication Filter". We hear what we want, we filter what we hear so that we can make sense of our experiences.

For the New E-coli strain (species?) it took how many generations to change? 10^9th power? 10^10? just to change one small neucleotide change to allow it to produce a useful substance?
How many neucleotide changes occurred to evolve from ape to man? How many generations to change that number of pieces of code? And here is the tough part. How many generations of Homo erectus were there? The genotype alone would indicate a number of subtle changes to HE DNA to change into Homo Sapien. The number of generations of protoman(ape) to man? It is only in the last century that enough of the Homonid type has had enough population to allow for evolution.
So evolutionists would have us believe that homonids accomplished in a small number of generations what E-Coli couldn't do in more than a million times more generations. And E-Coli is the more adaptive creature! By science's standard and by Darwins standard, The E-coli should have at least evolved into multicellular invvertebrates in the scientists vats! And that was in a controlled environment!

Achems Razor

@Patrick Leonard:

Will only say one thing, you say most everything came from religion, to your post to @Sarah: Well I say was there any choice?? why, even Galileo had to recount his findings for fear of reprisals to the church, just think of all the progress that science could had made if religion had not got in the way, RE: dark ages! Religion always tried to suppress science, and still tries to suppress science right up to this day! With their creationist "BELIEF" as one example, and 6000 year old Earth, Etc:

Patrick Leonard

Oh, come on Razor. Most churches, even the Roman Catholic churches are not trying to suppress science. They are trying to keep scientists from becoming Dr. Frankensteins, from becoming ghouls. And since we're in America now, since when has the church had such power since the founding of this great nation?
Anyhow, in a way you are right. People tend to be stiff necked lunk-heads, on all sides. I guess it's human nature to always want to be right. People tend to jump out of windows when their world-view gets shattered and will defend their position as if it is life and death.

Achems Razor

@Patrick:

Where do the churches get such power? why even your pres. talks to Christ, since he is a christian, only read that on the news yesterday!

Patrick Leonard

To get elected, one has to please a number of people. It is highly unlikely that an atheist would become president, though it is possible. It is more likely that if a candidate professes the same beliefs as the majority of voters, that candidate stands a better chance of being elected. The Roman Catholic church possessed a huge amount of power in that if a king or prince were excommunicated, his country and lands could be seized without fear of retribution. The Roman Catholic church's power began to wane during the "Age of Reason", and after the Lutheran Reformation. Prior to this, the church owned huge tracts of land and kept the populace in ignorance and fear. Education was for the clergy and nobility, and the peasant did not have access to any information. The Bible wasn't translated until the various protestant reformations. These reformations opened the gates for the "Age of Reason". I'm not telling anything you can't figure out or find out for yourself.
As I had stated earlier, my reasons for believing have more to do with the road which I have travelled, and not based on anything my pot smoking disfunctional parents ever taught me.
The power the church had over the secular world was political based on religious; similarly the power "science" has over the educatinal system stiffles independent inquiry and personal convictions. Further, I would stipulate the power the church excercised over science and over the lives of europeans was not based on biblical teachings. The Apostles promoted communal living and democratic processes. The church, at that time, taught that kings were chosen by God. The church had more people killed for religious heresies and conflicting belief systems than for science. I personnally like the example left by St. Patrick in Ireland as an example of the relationship of the church to a country.

In areas such as Global Warming, the scientists need to encourage the religious to embrace the science, to understand it. As I said in an earlier post, to insult men during an argument only causes them to turn from you. Perhaps instead of being arrogant, these scientists should seek to influence leaders such as the Pope, the Muslim clergy, every religious leader they can find and convince them with irrefutable evidence of what is going on. Perhaps then these leaders will guide their followers on the right path. It is not compromise, it is being tactful. It is telling someone what is going on while being respectful of their traditions and beliefs.
Since you will always have people who believe in ID in one form or another and for one reason or another, why fight it? If their ideas turn out to be false (e.g. irreducible complexity), then like all beliefs, they will fall into the trash bin of science. If, however, it cannot be proved false, even if it were to be so, it will not change science.
Every day, scientists find interesting ideas that support many of the "myths" in the Bible, such as the possibility of the flood of Noah being based on deluge stories that have been modified by the cultures they have passed through. The biggest problem with Old Testament Hebrew is it is too ambiguous. The great flood did not cover all of the "Earth", it covered all of the "Land" or Eretz.
I would continue on this thread of thought, but don't wish to beat a dead horse.
The point of it is this: when you insult people, "persecute" people, and ostracize people because of their beliefs, they will be less likely to listen to your arguments. Further, with the number of crack-pot scientists out there trying to prove various end-of-the-world scenarios (e.g. 2012, polar shift, global superstorms etc.) it can be exceedingly difficult to filter out the good science from the junk science. With the continuing changes in the understanding of pure sciences such as Physics, people are going to seek an answer that they can understand. ID is not a threat to science, nor can any idea be a threat. Unless the atheists and "scientists" are willing to bend a little, this century could well lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Global Warming is just one threat. There are others, and Science has to show the church what must be done, without taking a big dump on their belief systems. It's kind of like trying to teach poor africans that having big families is bad. If you were to approach them disrespectfully, you would probably get hacked to death with machetes. If you incorporate their beleifs, or at least respect their beliefs, they will be more willing to listen. Of course, you are always going to have the "one-percenters".

Epicurus

@patrick....
if you are going to claim religion is the source of all those goods then you better be willing to take claim to all the evil religion has been the source of.

while you do that we will say thank you for starting science, and sorry for showing your myths to be wrong after we took it and made it more pragmatic and accurate. or at least forcing the religious to keep making their god smaller and smaller.

now, from our branching ancestor on the primate tree we are MILLIONS of generations away. also the pressure placed on the E. Coli was NOTHING compared to the drastic changes in environment and diets our ancestors went through...at one point the human race dropped to about 5000 individuals on the entire planet.

i cant believe i still have to argue evolution with someone who is supposed to be an adult. i feel like im arguing that the earth isnt flat. this isnt something we ought to be debating as it is well established fact amongst ANYONE who actually has an education in it. this is absurd.

I also noticed you said something about Darwinism positing that we came from goo. that is false. Darwinism as you call it which is the theory of natural selction, has nothing to do with how life began but only how it changes. this is why i dont think you understand enough about science or evolution to act as if your thoughts on this matter are relevant to....reality.

PS: dont use Behe as a source since he was shown to be completely wrong on his irreducible complexity flagellum and he refused to accept what every other scientist independently confirmed and ran over to start publishing papers in creationist funded journals and calling his work science. he is a disgrace to science and should have his degrees nullified.

Patrick Leonard

epicurus

There you go insulting people again. That's just the way to get people to listen to your arguments. I normally tune out such stuff, other people have more severe reactions.

"He is a disgrace to science and have his degrees nullified."

wow. Now that's objective. By the same standard we should tear down such scientific notables as newton, copernicus, and the like. Why? Because they were eventually proven wrong? Wow!

I know,...why don't we just have a big pit match and start beating on each other with dimensional lumber!

Andy Kelly

@Rikki putting aside your severe lack of spelling ability, (the words are Schmuck and Destroyed by the way) Aethiests are not saying for one minute that humans came from monkeys or goo only that they share a common ancestor and that something that lived in goo as you put was a common ancestor of everything, you are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey.

D-K

@Andy:

"you are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey"

Would you mind elaborating on that?

D-K

@Patrick Leonard:

To be fair, you choose to focus on the "insult" rather than the validity of the point he's making.

You say: "ID is not a threat to science, nor can any idea be a threat. Unless the atheists and “scientists” are willing to bend a little, this century could well lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Global Warming is just one threat. There are others, and Science has to show the church what must be done, without taking a big dump on their belief systems"

Scientists and atheists should bend on what, exactly? How do you see the end of civilization happening, and how did you come by that timeframe? How does the bending of atheists and scientists factor into threats such as global warming? Are you saying some relation exists? Why does science have to show the church what must be done, how would 'science' go about that exactly? Mind you, if 'church' actually listened to 'science' there wouldn't be much church left..

Good point, how would bending of science and atheists bring about the end of global warming or other pressing matters et al: is @Patrick saying that if atheists started believing in a god, pick one, out of the 28,000,000 by the way,(bad odds)! the invisible entity from who knows where would welcome us with his, or her, or it's, presence and forever stop all that is of pressing concern to the world as we know it!
Maybe this god whatever, will stop the speeding up of the universe, will he is at it also...Hmmm

Always La, La, land with the religee's!!

Patrick Leonard

D-K You really haven't thought it all the way through.
Since neither ID nor abiogenesis can be impirically "proven", arguing which one is correct is counterproductive and wastes valuable time and assets. It is not inconsistent to argue that scientists should try to get the various religious leaders to help guide mankind to solve the various problems we now face, its politics.
People who aren't willing to comromise rarely reach positions of power where their knowlege can do the most good. If we want to mitigate the effects of global climate change and numerous other problems facing mankind, we have to be able to set aside our differences and find common ground.
You are not going to convince any major religion of your science if you continually assault them with insults, derision, and exclusion.
Presently the vast majority of humans on the planet follow one religion or another. I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of people on the planet believe more what their religious leaders say to them than what some atheistic patronizing scientist would say to them. To solve the biggest problems in our world, we have to get these majorities on board, and it isn't going to happen by insults, derision, or exclusion.
Most of the derisive comments about Behe sound more like mudslinging than any real arguments.
Here is something to think about: If something cannot be absolutely proven to be true or factual (abiogenesis)(id)(the descent of man from ape), how would exploring the possibility be unscientific? Unless of course Science is actually a religion, and to blaspheme against her sacred tenets is cause for excommunication.

D-K

"It is not inconsistent to argue that scientists should try to get the various religious leaders to help guide mankind to solve the various problems we now face, its politics"

That's logically insonsistant, yes. Science has nothing to do with politics, neither is science any sort of foundation or applicable paradigm for religious leaders to guide their sheep from. The notion of having a religious person adopt a scientific paradigm is prepostorous, the very act of being religious logically disqualifies someone from adopting the scientific paradigm. Faith is irrational, any 'scientific' conclusion derived whilst employing an irrational frame of reference is illogical.

"If something cannot be absolutely proven to be true or factual (abiogenesis)(id)(the descent of man from ape), how would exploring the possibility be unscientific?"

That's not something for me to think about as I never argued otherwise. I'd like to point out that you've answered not one of my questions. Not one.

"Since neither ID nor abiogenesis can be impirically “proven”, arguing which one is correct is counterproductive and wastes valuable time and assets"

irrelevant.

"People who aren’t willing to comromise rarely reach positions of power where their knowlege can do the most good. If we want to mitigate the effects of global climate change and numerous other problems facing mankind, we have to be able to set aside our differences and find common ground"

irrelevant.

"You are not going to convince any major religion of your science if you continually assault them with insults, derision, and exclusion.
Presently the vast majority of humans on the planet follow one religion or another. I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of people on the planet believe more what their religious leaders say to them than what some atheistic patronizing scientist would say to them"

irrelevant.

Perhaps you are the one who didn't think all the way through, please try answering my questions. Your (assumed) inability to answer them should lead you to reevaluate your though-process.

D-K

Lastly, Science is not about convincing people that "we" are right and that "they" should think like "we" do. No scientist is under some inherent obligation to teach the ignorant masses of their favoured methodology (used to explain surroundings). Science does not require a validation in form of numbers/followers, it validates itself in practicality.

Coexistance is dependant on morality, culture and intelligence, not any specific religion or methodology.

Patrick Leonard

and yet more insults from Achems Razor

Yeah, that's how to get people to listen. Insult them!

Here's fun for you:

65 million years ago the age of dinosaurs ended. The only mammal known of at the time was some omnivorous shrew. These "rats" survived the devastating asteroid impact (which would have killed off vegetation through the "nuclear" winter) by feeding of the corpses of the dead until plants were able to reestablish themselves.

although the actual time that homosapiens appeared on the earth is still unknown (100k years? 1million? 2million?) if the average generation (between shrews and humans) is about 1 year (as a supposition), then in 65 million generations, we evolved from shrew to man. sounds plausible. How many generations of small pox were there in a hundred years time? billions? trillions? yet it never adapted to infect, to cross over to, another species nor change its vector to become more virulent.

At the 100,000 year mark as the appearance of homosapien on the planet, at a 20 year generation model, we only have 5000 generations existing on the planet, not millions.

At the 2,000,000 year mark, at a 20 year generational model, we still only have 100,000 generations, not millions.

Let us look at that a little harder....

All ancestral species of homonid evolved from one location; Africa. All other previous homonids, who had spread from Africa to other parts of the planet did not survive.

The oldest known homosapien skeleton is only 160,000 years old. Our lineage seperated from the chimpanzee line (from a common ancestor) around 2 million years ago. Since we have around 20000 protein making codons from which we are generated, that would mean that there is a 400 protein making codon difference between humans and chimpanzee.

400 codons. This does not include junk dna. Let us assume that from the common ancestor, chimpanzees changed 200 of their codons and we changed 200 of ours.

Since our lines diverged around 2 million years ago, and we appeared only around 200,000 years ago, that averages to about one beneficial codon change every 9000 years. Yet we find no change of that nature in homosapiens. Further, each of the genetic changes would have to be dominant traits that suppressed the traits of our previous cousins to a point where those previous traits no longer appeared on the dna strands.

This level of change is what the argument is all about. Some scientists speculate that the change is too rapid to be explained by evolution. Of course there may be a mutagenic agent or vector of an androprogenesis nature that allows such rapid change to occur that we don't know about.

However, in the timeline of modern humans (around 200,000 years)there should be 22.22 different protein codons in our dna from the dna of that first homosapien, each one androprogenetic and beneficial, and the last appearing within the last 9000 years.

Behe argued that the protein changes in human dna over the time line specified were not beneficial, (genetic arms race) but of the burning bridge type(trench warfare). Further, much of the genetic mutations found in humans are detrimental, leading to a number of genetic disorders.

It may be interesting to reveal the actual difference between chimpanzees and humans and see how these changes may have occurred. (diet, environment, etc.)

man, i'm getting long winded!

Achems Razor

@Patrick:

Basically what you are saying is the advent of man came about by ID or creationism, not from a common ancestor, where did all the dinosaur bones et al: come from? Did your gods put them there to test the faith?

Nothing in the bibles about dino's etc: why?? because when the bibles were written in the bronze age, no one knew about them, or would of been inclusion in the bibles of more fanciful tales.

Behe's argument not withstanding, am more inclined to not (believe) but "think" about "Panspermia" as to why the advent of man. At least that is one scenario that makes more sense to me than the bronze age myths!

Andy Kelly

@D-K No elaboration required, Was merely making the observation that people who can't spell and make ridiculous comments on here are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey. I thought it was funny anyway. ;)

Justin

Easily one of my favourite documentaries of just about any subject and loved Stein for this. It has some damning revelations about something most people 'knew all along' which is the sort of monopoly the 'atheistic' crowd have on science and especially on 'origins' and Expelled obviously did something right because there were a near swarm of 'Anti-Expelled' propaganda docs released to counter it and using absolutely any and all desperation tactics you can think of.

Anyways, forget what side you want to cheer for and just enjoy this documentary for what is actually a helluva good collection of some of the biggest names in the 'origins' fields and philosophers. Lennox, Dawkins, Berlinski, Provine, Walczack, Dembski, Dennett.. I mean this is some great stuff and for the most part most get fairly good long unedited chunks of time to state their cases (at least as far as it goes here).

Fairly well done. I was not 'in love' with the choice of a sort of green 'washed out' film quality making even the rare attractive people look a little ugly and that 'dreary' look maybe compensated by wacky little cartoon bits but then again it wasn't distracting and for the most part well shot, well narrated, nice professional, really nice 'pace'.

Real standouts to me were Will Provine who I'd disagree with but I admire for being straight-forward and blatant and consistent with his beliefs.
Berlinski is just a killer.. i mean i can see why he just infuriates the 'naturalistic crowd',
Lennox stood out to me,
but,
The Dawkins interview was just about one of the strangest, kookiest, actually kind of delightfully weird interviews I've seen yet.

Yes, I did purchase this but highly recommended (watch it here sure) and I noticed it was one of the top 10 most successful documentaries of all-time according to the box office and for a good reason - very compelling, interesting, sad, funny, disturbing at times, invokes thoughts and I notice highly controversial.
Go figure.. droll glum Ben Stein is behind one of the most controversial films in recent memory! That's funny enough in itself.

Great post topdoc!

D-K

@Andy:

Noted, I took the statement very differently (sans humor) and thought 'this should be good'..

Thanks for the clarification.

Patrick Leonard

Actually, D-K, The people in the Bronze and Iron ages thought the bones belonged to giants, monsters, and dragons. At least that is what archaeologists speculate.

Panspermia generally does not generally explain abiogenesis, and many "scientists'" speculations about extraterrestrial intelligences (aliens) sound more like the rantings of new-age nutbags.

Personally I believe in a bioproprogenetic principle underlying life on earth. Mere natural selection or random mutation cannot account for the diversity of life in any great age of Earth. I believe that principle was the work of an intelligence. Like a potter making a vessel or any artisan or blacksmith working in their field, this intelligence created us. I personally would like to know how this was done, how it is done, and am open to new ideas. So far, we have come tantalizingly close, but...
the principle eludes us.

Patrick Leonard

Read through more of your posts, D-K.
Is the world really so black and white to you?
What an absolutist.
I guess your "science" really is a religion. You begin to sound more like an Imam than a rational person.

D-K

@Patrick:

I don't know which posts you've been reading but I'm an agnostic, which is about as far removed from absolutism as one can get.

Maybe you could be more specific?

Also as regarding your previous post, which was directed at me, it seemed a bit out of the blue. I haven't made the assertions you seem to adress, nor have I been defending "my" science as if it were a religion. I've merely corrected your faulty assumptions and misappropriation of the functionality of science, nothing more..

Perhaps you'd like to wrestle some more with my questions which you have yet to answer, they're still right up there.

No really, they are.. have a look!

Achems Razor

It seems that Patrick mixed up my post with D-K's post

Please note, I said "I think" not "Believe" that the advent of man came about by "Panspermia"

How about this then? I think, not believe, maybe the advent of man came about by "Aliens" enough reference to that in the bible.

Ezekiel 1:4-1:24...just to name a few!! Do you figure that is "New Age" also??

Again I say, anything is better than the bronze age myths! And is just as viable!!

Charles B.

Razor: Panspermia just pushes the odus of the origin of all life to another place and planet. But then again, those that really believe in panspermia also believe that life is for lack of a better term "eternal" anyway--exploding and falling to new planets all the time to start over again.

Clarification: that which is eternal has neither beginning (origin) nor end.

I also don't really understand how a belief in the mechanics of panspermia automatically entails belief in life as being eternal. Panspermia/exogenesis details destribution, not origin. Technically, it can explain the advent of man, just not the advent of the extremophiles that are cause to the advent of man (through evolution).

Robert Allen

I could expatiate on this inane and jejeune documentary, but as I wish not to emulate Mr. Stein, I'll just touch on a few points.

First of all, the opprobrium and ostracism which the intelligent design people claim they suffer at the hands of the dyed-in-the-wool members of the academic community is well deserved. Why not demand similar presentations of eugenics, phrenology and astrology? Why not give equal time to the concepts of number primes or that the possibility of trisecting an angle with just a compass and straight edge.

The little ID people bemoan their well-deserved ostracism, give themselves over to a pseudoheroism arising out of their deviation from accepted norms and enlist academic freedom as their support and justification. THE OPPROBRIUM HEAPED ON INTELLIGENT DESIGN AS WELL AS THOSE WHO ADVOCATE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACADEMIC FREEDOM, MR. STEIN!

People have deviated from accepted concepts and remained respected members of the academic community. For example, I was watching a documentary on dinosaurs and one paleontologist (I cannot remember his name) believes that the tyranosaurus rex couldn't have hurt anything ("anyones" were not around at the time). The difference between him and the little ID people is that he bases his contentions, not on some some misplaced, unintellictual or unintelligent faith, but on the very structure of the creature--this is called evidence. I do not know enough to take sides--it's not the point. This paleontologist remains a respected member of the intellectual community and I have not heard anything about his teaching position being on the line.

Using another example, also from paleontology, there are a number of scientists are skeptical that birds evolved from dinosaurs. There is also controversy as to whether flying was preceded by gliding or running. These individuals are still scientsts who rightly deserve the respect they are accorded in the scientific community, for they reach their conclusions by analyzing the evidence and based their results on their science. The caliber of the "expelled" scientists/teachers presented in this documentary is tantamount to the caliber of intelligent design itself. If these "pundits" don't believe Darwin, why don't/can't they come up with alternate scientific theories, rather than caviling about some point of evolution/ survival of the fittest or when they don't know, leaping to the hebetudinous postulation that because things seem so well laid out, there must have been a creator. THIS IS WHY INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS NOT A SCIENCE, BUT A RELIGIOUS BELIEF!

Incidentally those of the ID ilk are far more notorious for distorting, misquoting and outright lying than any evolutionist ever thought of being.

Mr. Stein takes up considerable screen time exhuming that tired cliché of the Nazi's committing their atrocities because of a belief in Darwin--by some convoluted "logic," this makes Darwin and survival of the fittest inherently evil and justifies the need for religion, ostensibly to keep us in check. Naturally, this presentation is accompanied by the usual maudlin display of footage demonstrating (however unnecessarily) for the average viewer what is being talked about. MR. STEIN,GET THIS STRAIGHT, THE NAZIS DID NOT COMMIT THEIR NEFARIOUS DEEDS BECAUSE THEY WERE INSTRUCTED TO BY DARWIN! Darwin merely described and deduced--HE DID NOT ADVOCATE A COURSE OF ACTION!

Quite frankly, Mr. Stein comes off as a pathetic fool and this documentary, coupled with his checkered background bear, witness to the level of Mr. Stein's intelligence and understanding.

Achems Razor

@Robert Allen:

Well said, well written, and thank you for some new (big) well, new to me anyway, words.

Robert Allen

Thank you.

Reading=vocabulary.

Robert Allen

@Achems Razor

Just one more thing. I have seen a number of spellings for Occam, but never this one. Is this deliberate.

Also, you might be interested to know (if you don't already) that Occam's Razor does not appear in Occam in any of its modern forms.

Achems Razor

@Robert Allen:

You are welcome.

Yes it is deliberate, some commentors use Occam's in reference in their blogs, Achems does not seem to overlap.

Never been to Occam, so do not know if it appears in any modern forms. So will take your word for it.

Robert Allen

@Achems Razor:

No one's ever been to Occam, but I hear that Ockham in Surrey is somewhat popular.

Incidentally, let me recommend a really superior documentary on evolution entitled "What Darwin Never Knew." One viewing will drive home the inanity of and the distortions contained in the cavilings against Darwin from the mouths (but not the brains)of the little ID people in "Expelled."

Patrick

Ah...!!! I finally get the Occams Razor thing!
To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."[4](Wikipedia)
Wow...but of course it is only a rule of thumb:
In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.(Widipedia)
The principle allows the obtuse to ignore others.
Even Darwin recognized the place of religion in society, even as in later years he became more and more agnostic.
Since neither evolution nor ID can be absolutely proven without a time machine (an impossibility), and since evolution has more physical evidence in its favor, the principle of Occams Razor would apply...
unless someone found irrefutable evidence of ID.
So...what are we afraid of? Are Scientists afraid of finding proof of God, or merely defending their obtuse stance to maintain tenure? Further, I have yet to see any refutation of the math.

Patrick

As to explaining the Ascent of man in Creationist Museums and the like....I say Baaaahhhhh Humbug.
Why would God create two sociopaths, tell them not to do something, and expect them do follow through? They were sociopaths, not knowing the difference between good and evil....

Urk...one really doesn't want to look too hard at Genesis, much less the rest of the Old and New testaments. Error abounds in all man's endeavors, including the Bible. Don't get me started. Anyone looking for scientific evidence in these and other writings are barking up the wrong tree.

Further, name calling and TYPING ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS IN CAPS isn't evidence of anything, other than that mentioned about obtuseness.

Hey, if I type EVOLUTION IS A RELIGIOUS APOSTASY PERPETRATED UPON THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY BY COMMUNIST AND PROGRESSIVE ATHIESTS all in bold caps, does that make it true?

Robert Allen

@Patrick

I hate Newton's prolix version of Occam's Razor as much as I hate his refusal to accpet imaginary numbers, as much as I hate his notation (Leibnitz' was far better) but he is certainly one of the greatest mathematicians ever produced.

Naturally, Occam's razor is far from universally applicable and when misused certainly "allows the obtuse to ignore others."

The score is some number greater than 1 for evolution and 0 for intelligent design. From the way it's explained by its proponents, there can be no irrefutable evidence of its veracity and thus the score tilts more heavily in evolution's favor, that is until something new and improved, but still scientific comes along.

Perhaps Plato's demiurge in its various incarnations through the millennia should be examined alongside intelligent design. At least, the concept of the demiurge has the virtue of possible reconcilement with evolution.

Great title for a horror film: "The Earl of Occham meets Rube Goldberg."

Robert Allen

@Patrick

Bear in mind two things:

1. God can do anything
2. Like fundamentalists and little ID people, god works in mysterious ways.

Which makes the demiurge all that more comforting and from what I hear, it has little to do with sociopaths.

You're right. Capitalization does not make a statement true; it simply makes it truer.

Patrick

Anyway, ROBERT

Eugenics (which finds its roots in Darwin and his associates, though I know he personally didn't favor such things), which is the artificial application of selection principles in absence of natural selection lead inexorably to Forced sterilizations in enlightened countries like the United States. Anyone who argues that Hitler and his cronies didn't eat up the principles described by Darwin and expanded upon by his associates is in complete denial of historic fact.

In fact the first Eugenics law passed was enacted in Illinois, justified by the belief in evolution and natural selection. Obfuscating the truth has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Hitlers death camps were only the inevitable outcome of scientific principles acted upon by those seeking genetic purity in a fictional, romanticized germanic ideal.

You have read about what was going on in Nazi Germany prior to 1939, haven't you? The Nazis were killing off anyone they considered unfit, including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, the mentally r@#$%^&*... the list goes on.

Did not Darwin agree with Malthus when he considered that the advent of vaccination for small-pox had lead to the survival of less fit humans who would have died off due to lower constitutions? Did not he believe that this meddling would inevitably lead to a Malthusian event? Did not he and his family willingly participate in a selective breeding program among 5 families in close association? Exactly how long do you think we will tolerate your historic revisionism?

peelingpaint

Stein's checkered background bear is an unreliable witness, and it's testimony should be discounted.

peelingpaint

Last comment was for Robert Allen. Also agency is just as good a hypothesis as mutation and selection-- which, btw, many biologists who reject teleological explanations are also rejecting as being sufficient to explain all biological form.

I can't see much argumentation in these posts, just hyperbole. We all *know* that the majority perception and general consensus is that the modern synthesis is what educated, intelligent people accept, and that ID is for people who aren't really keeping up. You're not telling us anything by repeatedly asserting that.

Dawkins' 'methinx it's like a weasel' analogy fails imo, because evolution is supposed to have no end in sight, and *also* because strings of nonsense syllables are not functionally fit as sentences-- so there's no 'reason' why they should survive-- apart from an agent allowing them too.

Robert Allen

@PATRICK

You're right. It was the artificial application of what the Nazi believed was natural selection/survival of the fitest. Because Darwin and Malthus were describers, not activitsts, I take umbrage at any blame or opprobrium attached to them for the atrocities of the Nazis. This is far from revisionism.

peelingpaint

@Robert Allan

What do you mean 'there can be no irrefutable evidence of it's veracity'?

peelingpaint

@Robert Allen

That is, I know what the words mean, but on what basis do you say that? Is it even relevant, when the usual charge against it is that scientific claims need to be falsifiable, rather than capable of being conclusively established?

Robert Allen

@peelingpaint

In other words, it can't be proved one way or the other. Averring only two possibilites is myopic, in that this practice displays a blindness to the nature of the subject.

To put it another way, there's plenty of proof for evolution/survival of the fittest (even if our record is incomplete)and possibly for other alternate theories based solely on science (i.e., observation, evidence), not on antithetical leaps of faith.

peelingpaint

@Robert Allen

I haven't averred only two possibilities, as I made it quite clear that there are biologists who reject telos and 'the supernatural' but also reject/question the modern synthesis.

The evidence (genetic and phenotypic homologies, fossil record etc) that random mutation and natural selection has been responsible for the origin of body-plans, rather than just variations thereof, is dependent upon certain foundational premises, as is all evidence. In this case, that such a mechanism can do the job. More direct evidence would be evidence that that premise is true. I don't see any evidence that it is.

The difference between alternative, but non-teleological theories, such as 'self-organisation' and Darwin's mechanism, is that we don't *know* whether the former ultimately requires agency as a factor, or not, since it is an incomplete and open-ended theory, like most in physical science. The latter intrinsically assumes that agency is not required.

Surely if it is valid to have as a hypothesis that agency is *not* required, the counter-hypothesis that it *is* must also be valid?

If Dembski is right that biological forms are examples of a real phenomena called CSI, and that the only CSI that we know of comes from agency, would that not be good evidence that agency is responsible? Not conclusive, but a reasonable assumption, I'd have thought.

Or are you saying that we can't physically measure agency, so it can't be a part of a hypothesis? If so, Darwin's theory must be unscientific, unless you can explain how we can measure random mutation and blind selection by the environment (without begging the question).

Robert Allen

@peeling paint

Please don't try to snow me. I resent it. I know who William Dembski is. How can you allude for support to a man of science who takes his autistic son to a faith healer and then complains of no cure? However, what I don't know is what CSI is or what the initials stand for in this context (certainly not criminal scene investigation).

Speaking of Dembski, you need to clean up your logic as well. The way you have phrased paragraph 4 admits of only two possibilities. In such a case,the two contradictory statements you have crafted cannot be equally valid.

By the way Wikipedia furnishes an informative article on Dembski. No wonder why he is villfied by so many members of the mainstream academic community!

As for the concept of agency, Plato's demiurge provides a more comfortable pillow than anything knitted by the little intelligent design people.

peelingpaint

@Robert Allen

I didn't know about Dembski and son's brush with a faith healer, but whatever the details, it doesn't have any direct link with his arguments for ID.

CSI stands for 'complex specified information'. It's similar to Paley's idea of what a watch manifests, I think-- complexity to a purpose. Dembski claims to have made the idea rigorous, and provided a way of detecting it.

Whether he has or not, I don't know, but I do think that there is a lot of automatic dismissal-- Miller's 'debunking' of Behe's claim that the bacterial flagellum shows 'irreducible complexity' doesn't deserve to be as lauded as it has been imo. For that and related reasons to do with other (imo) bad arguments on the part of people opposing ID, I personally am sympathetic to the arguments of Dembski and not prepared to take the word of his opponents just because I don't fully understand all the technical details.

I don't think it's illogical to say that two contradictory hypotheses can't be equally valid. I'd say that until the truth is known, a valid hypothesis *must* have a valid counter-hypothesis. In statistics I believe they call it the 'null' hypothesis.

Either it is raining on the Eiffel Tower at the moment, or it isn't. Both are equally valid hypotheses, though one in fact must be wrong.

Robert Allen

@peelingpaint

The hell it doesn't! Why do people go to faith healers? In most cases, because they believe there's an omnipotent deity which through the medium of the "healer" can and will cure what can't and won't be cured. Why such an omnipotent deity needs an intermediary to work his alleged miracles is never explained, nor for that matter why this prime mover (read intelligent designer) in his infinite perfection visits such scourges on mankind (some of them caused by living entities which according to intelligent design he himself has created.) Now, when a so-called man of science "has brushes with" such charlatans, he calls into serious question his ability to perform as a scientist, thus engendering distrust of everything he postulates, will postulate or has postulated, such as intelligent design. In short, he merits his ostracism from the intellectual community and the opprobrium which goes with it.

Specific complexity (this is the terminology I learned) seems to stand for the proposition that ultracomplex things must have a creator behind them. The mathematics employed by Demski in its support has been judged by his peers as faulty and incompetent. From my lay point of view, I ask where is the scientific reasoning behind this eldritch conjecture? Are there any facts or proof to back it up? In short, can CSI be proved only by coupling it with bad mathematics and distortion of the laws of probability?

Miller's debunking of Behe's claim anent flagella deserves the praise accorded it. Behe literally lied about (or to be charitable) provided a distorted description of this lower form in a feeble attempt to disprove evolution. Thanks to Miller, he failed. Is this the way the little intelligent design people make up for their inane apostasy and complete lack of evidence?

Not being a scientist or mathematician (actually they're one in the same), I, too, don't fully understand all the technical details (or even part of them) however, I can draw what I believe are logical conclusions (inferences) from what is presented. And what you present is a blind belief in Dembski the Discredited (apparently he has never published a paper in a scientific journal), apparently based on personal appeal rather than intellctual rigor.

In conclusion, valid=right, invalid=wrong. There are a finite number of primes is invalid and incorrect; its antipode is valid and correct. Works just like the rain on the Eiffel Tower, only one of the hypotheses is valid.

Patrick Leonard

Apparently, to become a evolutionary biologist, one has to fail in mathematics. How one can understand evolution on the scale nature demonstrates without understanding the improbability of it having occurred is quite beyond me.

What's missing is causal. What is causing the rapid evolutionary changes demonstrated in the geographic record? Natural selection has limitations as demonstrated in the math. There must be some mechanism, a cause, that influences evolution that we haven't seen yet, something like an evolutionary plasmid found only in certain parts of the world that kicks evolution in the butt by causing random yet coherent changes in the dna molecule, carried by an unknown vector. Injected or absorbed into a cell, especially haploid precursor cell(in humans, a sperm or egg), that causes a limited coherent change that is replicated during gametogenesis and causes no harm to the host cell, such a plasmid would act like a "patch", a computer program that modifies existing programming or adds to it, correcting, changing, or in the case of a computer virus, damaging the dna "program". Such minor changes over 2 million years would be unnoticeable in a population, but result in dramatic genetic differences between species with a common ancestor. Find that "causal" and you can rebutt ID. Without a "cause" there can be no "effect".
Since Humans evolved out of Africa, the answer, the cause of human evolution, should be there, should still be floating around in one of the vectors. It's just a matter of looking.

Though the discovery of a natural evolutionary accellerator, if found, will answer how man evolved from a "lower" common ancestor, it does not answer abiogenesis. Understanding abiogenesis and how proteins can be naturally combined to form "life" is the key to answering the question of ID or not ID. Speculation is for hack writers. What is needed is not hypothesis, but proof.

It comes to this: If you can't recreate abiogenesis, then ID must be true. If you can recreate abiogenesis, then ID must be false.
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

It may even be that the evolutionary subroutine is encoded in our dna (what we consider now to be "junk" dna) that only kicks in during times of environmental stress. But where did it come from?

Nathan Johnson

It is appropriate look at a quote from Abdu'l-Bahá

"Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

I see wisdom in this writing of his also...

"When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles--and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God."

~Nathan

dawkinsian

I hear ya all IDers and just want give you a piece of my mind:

So God created the universe, stars, planets, the lot
and he also created mosquitos which suck your blood and give you disease, but he loves you :P

You dont need a god or religion to have morals (no time to elaborate, google the sentence to understand why)

It is not certain that God created man, but quite the opposite is evident: man created god according to his [lower} image i.e angry, testing, vindictive, capricious and above all vain! How else can you explain the eternal punishment of hell for not worshiping him!

Can someone so powerful give a damn what each insignificant short lived entity thinks of him,
I doubt it! In fact I doubt that God is a thinking entity, it is most likely that god is nature:
a tree takes years to grow, a baby takes nine months to be delivered, this is the speed of nature; nature [or god or christ,etc] cannot change the molecular structure of dead tissue in an instant (eg raising a dead person)

If there is a God, it is most likely he was done with this 3 dimensional universe the moment he exploded (one of my assumptions is that he got bored being a spirit and -since he's god - he turned into this incredibly hot molecule that created the big bang) Because otherwise, he's got to be omnipotent and omniscient. Yet we know he does nothing for the suffering while he let's tyrants like hitler, lenin, bushes, cheney, and many others wipe out millions, while they live it up!

Wake up and open your eyes, we're alone! At least in a dark room science gives you a candle to see where you go, religion puts it out and encourages you to walk in the dark!

An eye used to be a light censor before it became a fully functional eye, it worked even at it's early stages (look at snails, in a few million years they will probably develop eyes)

It is cowardly to fain belief just in case there is a God, at least be honest to yourselves.

Religion is full of muppets like Ted Haggard: a vicious, homosexual money collector who is one of the tele evangelists that has been bullshiting all these poor people in order to steal their money in the name of God.....

You need to understand people, it is all symbolic simply because faith can truly get things done but cannot move mountains, sorry.

peelingpaint

I like pepper sauce on pizza.

Robert Allen

@Dawkinsian

Your E-mail did me good. However, I offer one small criticism: "fain" as you have spelled it, is an obsolescent word meaning "rather" or prefer." e.g., I fain would go. I believe what you mean is "feign."

Based upon what you've written, I wonder if the malevolent, self-centered, vain, vindictive, overbearing diety portrayed in Genesis and elsewhere is really the ancients' way of describing to the people of their time the vagaries and cruelties of nature (and, of course, evolution). I would appreciate your thoughts.

P.S. I like Richard Dawkins, too.

dawkinsian

Dawkinsian
@Robert allen

(thanks for the correction Robert, i meant to write feign, there are more typos like "it’s early stages" should be "its" and some others, sorry didnt check my spelling. Also I apologise for adding the word homosexual, I have nothing against them. I am a photographer and use male/female "gay" make up artists, they are lovely people. It was just to expose Ted Haggard's pretentiouness and religidiocity)

Well Robert, I think you've answered your own question there, but
going so far back it is also possible they did refer to a higher
spirit that was like a warden in a correctional institution and then some, ie answering prayers, punishing those who stepped out of line and taking serious action (earthquakes) when he got really pissed off with the people. However, I don't think they could be aware of the concept of evolution simply because it needs some science and we know they were primitive as far as science is concerned. Educated folk know, the earth's core has been shifting since all the dust became a planet,so attributing
earthquakes,typhoons etc to "God" is...well,convenient, like
"it's God who did it...don't need to think about it or try and work out a more plausible explanation...it works, so I 'm off for a sandwich and a cuppa!"

I hope this gives a better picture,
cheers

DENNIS DOSTERT

Most of these comments are "either God or religion." Intelligent Design is not about this issue. What it says is that design seems apparent in cellular processes. The source of this apparent design is not clear. Dawkins says extraterrestrials may be responsible. Some research should be allowed which recognizes this apparent design. Maybe some new insights will come from this.

Apparently, some powers in university science departments feel this idea should be crushed. If you agree with this, you are against free inquiry and for scientific orthodoxy. It is the science people who are afraid of possible religious implications, not religious people forcing their views on scientists.

peelingpaint

@DENNIS DOSTERT
Agree with you generally, but I think for various reasons that, having postulated agency as a cause, it actually is more reasonable to think it's a non-physical agent than a physical one (though the initial hypothesis of design may not require that). So materialists are right to be suspicious in a way-- but the modern synthesis has materialist implications as well (if it's true), so it cuts both ways. That's probably why some would like to see it crushed, because they realise this, and it's their basic premise that reality is entirely physical, so any hypotheses that may not lead to that conclusion are unscientific by default.

over the edge

@ dennis
where is your proof. this debate boils down to weather or not there is scientific proof, if this idea (not a theory at all a theory requires testable repeatable proof) has any backing within the scientific method. if you want to have your idea taught in science class you have to follow the rules set up by science. not saying you are right or wrong only that this idea hasn't met the standards of science. it is like me demanding to play in the majors in baseball (even tho i lack the skill) but the rules don't apply to me so as to level the field to make me competitive.

Robert Allen

@Dennis

I once had a brilliant linguistic professor named Léon Dostert. Are you any relation to him? Just curious.

Please leave science to the scientists and religion to whom and whatever. "Over the edge" summed it up best.

Also, please be sure your statements are correct before making them. In particular, Stein merely asked Dr. Dawkins if he could posit an interesting theory of the creation of the world and Dawkins obliged him. At no time, did Dawkins state that extraterrestrials might have been responsible.

Also your definition of intelligent design, as least as that term is commonly used, is awry. I suggest you watch Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker which is on this site and read up on the debate between Paley and Hume.

To sum up the intellectual quality of those espousing intelligent design and fads like it, show me a creationist or ID person who hasn't misquoted, misled, misinformed and downright lied to support his untenable position which is generally attached to a religion or form thereof.

Dima

I am a biology major on my fourth year and believe in God, religion not so much, I consider the two mutually exclusive like evolution and abiogenesis. Anyway, there are strange, unexplainable things that happen in churches and other religious establishments such as statues crying tears as in Catholics and in Orthodox religions the icons of Mary or Jesus or any major saint that expel an oily substance on the surface right above the glass of the icon right near the face. These kinds of things along with all the credible scientists that secretly believe in a God is what solidified God for me.

Robert Allen

@Dina

You still have a lot to learn, such as what might be unexplainable one day becomes explainable the next. I suggest you read James Randi's book "Flim Flam" and Martin Garnder's "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science."

Epicurus

@Dima, do you have any evidence of crying statues? do you really think if a god was real THAT is how it would show itself?

DENNIS DOSTERT

Some of you do not read well. My statement was qualified. Dawkins said "may be responsible" - "apparent design" - "research allowed" to discover an explanation. My conclusion, scientists should seek the facts, but not crush a hypothesis or those who postulate it. I have had personal experience with this crushing. It is real. Ben Stein is right.

What would you call someone who fears the slenderest hint that God might be real? A "deiphobe?"

Robert Allen

@Dennis Dostert

If you are referring to me in the second sentence of your E-mail, I suggest you read my E-mail again. You're right; some of you don't read well--especially you.

I also suggest that you reread the E-mail from "over the edge." Scientists seek facts--they wouldn't be scientists if they didn't and for this reason, a hypothesis as boeotian as intelligent design masquerading as scientific postulation deserves to be crushed, along with those positing it.

Once again, leave science to the scientists!

P.S. Ben Stein is an ignorant fool.

over the edge

@dennis
science does not try to prove or disprove "supernatural" causes for anything. and by design ID invokes a supernatural cause. how can you in 1 response claim that ID is not about god ,so i and others did not mention god in our responses to you . them you imply that id is being crushed because our fear of the slenderest hint of god. so you are now saying id is about god? to answer your question i have you fear of your imaginary friend and science doesn't want to test it.by the way science IS trying to crush hypothesis that is part of the scientific method they try to disprove all hypothesis and when they can't they will accept it.

peelingpaint

God, these 'rationalists' are sanctimonious.

What is the neo-darwinian hypothesis apart from that it's unguided, that changes occur from natural causes and are saved by natural selection? How is that anymore unfalsifiable than ID? After all, you can always say that 'we haven't found the pathway yet, give us time'.

If the neo-darwinian explanation of the *appearance* of design isn't the counter hypothesis to *actual* design, then why do Dawkins and others believe that it's great evidence against God teleology of any kind? 'Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist' apparently. So I guess if his proposed mechanism is not the explanation then it's *not* possible any more? Guess what? Many secular humanist renowned commentators, e.g. Jerry Fodor, Stuarts Kaufmann, and Newman *don't* think the modern synthesis is a convincing anymore. How is it possible for a hypothesis to be valid, but not the counter h ypothesis. (please try and answer without spluttering as if you're esteems patricians and guardians against the dark forces of superstition).

Robert Allen

@peelingpaint

Forget the philosophy! Stick to the facts!

Why can't you write clearly?

Unimpressed!

peelingpaint

@Robert Allan

'Forget the philosophy', when you lot do, and stop calling it 'facts' perhaps.

bloody philistines

over the edge

@peelingpaint
first of all i only speak for myself but the counter hypothesis you speak of is not allowed by science . by its very definition the supernatural has no place in science weather that supernatural "designer is god or something else makes no difference. in my first post i made a point of saying that i am not saying that i am right and others are wrong.only when ID has repeatable,testable and natural explanations for their side can it be included in science. as for other scientific hypothesis that either claim that Darwin got some to all of it wrong i say good . if and when their ideas are proven to be a better explanation then natural selection (note i didn't say Darwin theory since it has been updated since its beginnings) i will accept it as well as scientists in my opinion. unlike religion science has no problem changing and updating when new information and understanding outweighs the current views. but the current view of evolution is still the best we have

peelingpaint

@over the edge

Who defined science in this way? How do you define the 'supernatural'. If it's an unembodied intelligence, how do you know that the consciousness we know of- *ours*, is embodied- as in 'in our bodies'?

That's not a scientific finding either, but another philosophical premise by which they are interpreted.

That the explanation for life must be entirely physical is a premise, but why can't this premise be examined in light of evidence? If it can't be, why should we consider it 'scientific'? Can you see, weigh, smell, touch or measure the *lack* of intention or agency any more than those things themselves?

Robert Allen

@peeling paint

I can see from your last E-mail to me that you are still unable to write lucidly (read: write). Well, this takes time and for those with nothing to speak of, an eternity (gossips, critics and politicians excepted).

The first step is to formulate your ideas (or what passes for them) clearly and in an organized manner, then think them through (at least as well as you can), then put fingers to keyboard and hit the send button. Unfortunately, your apparent dyslexia doesn't help, but try to read and understand this: MY LAST NAME IS ALLEN.

peelingpaint

@Robert Allen

Well it's very easy to speak plainly when you're saying nothing more than a collection of Dawkinsesque platitudes and fairly empty assertions that we've already heard ad nauseum.

@over the edge

I sympathise with wanting to call it a day, but I feel there are is a lot of hidden philosophy in those definitions. Why for example does positing agency behind nature not qualify as a conjecture *about* 'the natural world'?

That random mutation and natural selection has built complex form is a hypothesis *about* nature, which asserts that the cause is purely natural-- see the difference between saying that a valid hypothesis must be about *explaining* the tangible and measurable, and saying that a valid hypothesis can only *incur* the tangible and measurable?

I'll also repeat myself for the last time, and point out again that the absence of agency is no more tangible or measurable than the presence of those phenomena. So, what I'm saying basickally, is 'wot's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'.

Robert Allen

It's also very easy to speak/write plainly when you're not. Dr. Dawkins does it.

See your last paragraph. For your edification, "phenomena" is plural; "phenomenon" is singular.

How you express yourself is just as important as what you express and, quite frankly, I cannot fathom what you are trying to express. How about giving plain English a try!

DENNIS DOSTERT

Dawkins said, "That designer could be a higher intelligence from somewhere else in the universe." Sounds like extraterrestrial intelligence as a possible explanation to me. He could even be right. But we will never know if we reject the possibility out of hand.

Robert Allen

@Dennis Dostert

And banshees could exist!

Why do you leave out the question Dawkins was asked?

Why do you not answer my inquiry as to whether you are related to Léon Dostert?

DENNIS DOSTERT

I don't know Leon. He could be related. As far as banshees go, if the evidence for them was even a fraction as good as it is for ID, I might consider them. How did all those dedicated cellular machines come into existence? Why is there so much specified complexity? By the way, the evidence for God is considerably better than the evidence for extraterrestrials. Of course Dawkins would never consider the God hypothetical

As far as the question goes, it is obvious that Dawkins was speculating. He said he didn't know the ultimate cause. However, he claims to know what it isn't. He doesn't know that either.

over the edge

@dennis
-what evidence do you have for ID?
-by specified complexity do you mean irreducible complexity and if you do please provide an example
- again i thought id wasn't about god but if it is what proof do you have

over the edge

@dennis
behe you are kidding right? look up his testimony in the Dover school trial and then trad the rebuttal he was totally torn apart.but to sum up some parts he admitted that by his definition of science astrology would also be a science.he admitted that neither he or anyone else has had a peer reviewed paper published that supports his claims and his own example of irreducible complex systems was shown to be false. then the judge (a christian and republican appointed by bush) found intelligent unconstitutional on the basis that it is about god. just two quick quotes from judge jones
“intelligent design is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory"
" One consistency among the Dover School Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID"

DENNIS DOSTERT

The argument here is the right to research and express ideas without being fired - that is even the right to be wrong. The article I pointed to does explain the ID position. I don't agree that it is necessarily about God.

Robert Allen

@Dennis Dostert

Wrong! The issue is using science classes to teach science and not being science in any sense of the word, ID does not qualify. In other words, there is no "other side" to present.

Teachers must be held to an acceptable standard within the discipline. Thus, for example, any science teacher who teaches that the earth is only about 10,000 years old deserves to be booted out.

By your reasoning, why not use mathematics classes to present numerology? Why not use astronomy classes to present astrology? Why not use medical classes to present biorhythm?

In short, your argument has nothing to do with academic freedom!

By the way, for the third time, are you related to Léon Dostert?

peelingpaint

@epicurus
I have read a few of Dawkins's books, and know the arguments for natural selection and mutation being able to create complex form. I also know some counter arguments, such as Dawkins' 'methinx it is like a weasel analogy' being fundamentally (and fairly obviously) flawed.
The main reason that I'm more and more unimpressed with neo-darwinism's staunchest defenders is that NOTHING will count as evidence against the materialist conclusions that they draw from it. For example, we're told that it shows us there's no causes but physical causes, but also, that even if it's shown to be not as solid as is made out, then 'evolution'- a word that can subtly morph into a synonym for a purely physical process- is still true-- because *that* definition of it just HAS to be true- a premise that is purely philosophical. When an apparent fact counts as evidence for a philosophy but it's unreality would have no implications against it, logic goes out the window and it's not really worth listening anymore-- it's uninformative and just amounts to being hectored.

As the evidence against the modern synthesis leaks out people are going 'stop being so damn respectful' (to coin a phrase) of this kind of bluff- well I hope so anyway.

Robert Allen

@peelingpaint

At least physical causes have evidence to support them, as opposed to spiritual causes which do not. When it comes to science, physical evidence is everything and the preponderance of hard physical evidence unquestionably supports evolution along with everything it entails and continues to support it. This is what matters in science, not philosophical gobbledegook!

You still have considerable trouble expressing yourself clearly. Well, I give up. I guess there are those who try to convince through bluff.

over the edge

@ dennis
you said "The argument here is the right to research and express ideas without being fired "
i am assuming the examples you have are the ones expressed in this film. i will show the falsehoods in these claims

Richard Sternberg-claimed he was fired for his views.he wasn't he was demoted for not peer reviewing the article before printing it and according to company policy nobody publishes an article without peer review regardless of subject.

Caroline Crocke-claimed she was fired for mentioning id a couple of times.no she was never fired her contract wasn't renewed at its end and the non renewal was based on the fact she taught disproved facts.

Michael Egnor -wasn't fired but was ridiculed and rightfully so saying evolution is irrelevant to medicine

Michael Egnor-claimed that the university forced him to shut down his website and return grant money. wrong the university asked him to place a disclaimer stating his views weren"t the universities .

Guillermo Gonzalez- said he wasn't granted tenure because of his views.not true he was denied because he stopped publishing papers and bringing in grants to the university. as a side the last 12 applicants for his job were refused tenure as well.

any other persecuted you would like to mention?

Maargen

@Dennis Dostert: "As far as banshees go, if the evidence for them was even a fraction as good as it is for ID, I might consider them."

Actually, there *is* no evidence for ID. Every argument presented as being "for" ID (irreducible complexity, special complexity, whatever..) is simply a question that is thought by ID proponents to be unanswered by evolutionary theory. I put it that way because in many cases the questions have been answered, but evolution, and science, just isn't understood by ID proponents.

What if I asked you to explain how a plane worked, and told you anything you said about the mechanics of the plane would be a statement about engineering, and anything you said about the person who made the plane would be a statement about psychology? If you understand aerodynamics, you could explain every single part of that plane using 100% engineering terms. If you DON'T understand aerodynamics, when you come to the aileron, after scratching your head a bit and not knowing what it does, you might be tempted to say "maybe the designer put it there for esthetic purposes", or "I don't know why the designer put it there". Those last two statements would be statements of psychology, not engineering.

What if it's not a plane? What if it's something you never saw before...a bacterial flagellum maybe. Science is the discipline of describing this thing in 100% "engineering" terms. It doesn't say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there - that's a complete other discipline! What is so difficult for IDers to understand about this?? Maybe a human can look at something another human did and make comments about the motives and state of mind of that other human, but then that's like speaking to like. Why IDers, who are for the most part so very religious, keep wanting scientists to be able to presume to see God under a microscope is beyond me! They keep making statements like "God made the Earth look old to test our faith", because although these people can't understand human scientist, apparently they can read the mind of God perfectly well. Cheech...

peelingpaint

@Maargen

Science is the discipline of describing this thing in 100% "engineering" terms. It doesn't say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there - that's a complete other discipline!

ID proposes that it's possible to detect there *was* a 'who' and a 'why' behind certain phenomena, that it's valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes.

If you take issue with that, fair enough. But your implication that ID suggests that the we can know everything *about* the intention, such as 'why' it was done, or whether the motive was 'good' is false, it only says that we can rigorously judge that there *was* an intention, that whatever we're looking at was done *purposefully*.

As a digression, having read about Buddhism, which holds that there really *any* selves, I think that assuming that intention necessarily requires an entity that *intends* can be a bit of a red herring. While I'm not *against* the concept of God, I think it's possible to be an agnostic supporter of intelligent design, thinking that there might be purposeful design without a *designer*. As Behe said, the designer could be *anyone(thing)*, even some kind of 'New Age force'.

peelingpaint

PS

Meant to say that Buddhism says that there AREN'T really any 'selves' (before I get a formal reprimand from the grammar Nazis)

D-K

@Peeling paint:

"ID proposes that it’s possible to detect there *was* a ‘who’ and a ‘why’ behind certain phenomena, that it’s valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes"

By that logic, the agent itself requires an agent, ad infinitum. Secondly, how would ID go about "detecting if there was a 'who' and a 'why' behind certain phenomena"?

Maargen

@peelingpaint

"ID proposes that it’s possible to detect there *was* a ‘who’ and a ‘why’ behind certain phenomena, that it’s valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes"

I know what ID proposes. Philosophers propose this, and so do theologians. They may all be right, but IT IS NOT SCIENCE.

After inferring the action of an agent, where else is there for ID to go? Will it go on to discuss anything at all about the designer? I never, as you mistakenly claim, suggest the IDers claim we can know everything about the designer, although I understand that claiming that I did gives you an easy argument to counter. I'm saying that since science limits itself to describing the design in naturalistic, materialistic terms, discussion and/or postulation of the designer falls outside of the realm of science. It makes a lot more sense to dicuss this within the realm of Buddhism, or any other theological or philosophical discipline you choose.

There's a distinction between what a physchologist does and what a psychiatrist does, just as there is between what a scientist does and whatever it is IDers do.

peelingpaint

@D-K
In answer to your 1st point, I disagree that that agent requires an agent ad infinitum. To assert that is only to assert that materialist philosophy is correct, and that insentient physical process is primary, and sentience merely secondary. That's a philosophical premise, and I don't find the philosophical arguments in support of it nearly as convincing as those against.

In answer to your question, I believe I said how they say it can be detected, by a identifying the combination of complexity and specificity (it fulfills narrow functional requirements to produce a result). An example might be any of the posts here. There is no law that we know of that can produce them unaided. A law is simple, as it can be described with an equation. There's no short formula that can contain all the meaning inherent in a written word communication. Randomness can't produce them-- or at least it's so improbable as to be practically impossible. If someone's scrabble hands always spelt out words so they always got rid of all their letters, you'd think they were cheating.

I guess you could say that some posts, including mine perhaps, could have been written by a computer, but even if they were, an agent who understands the English language would have had to program it.

peelingpaint

@D-K

'Narrow functional requirements within a wide range of possibilities' might have been better. i.e. scrabble letters drawn from a bag at random are likely to spell nonsense, but if they spell sentences, they are 'specified' because only *specific* arrangements out of all possible arrangements of those letters could be meaningful sentences.

peelingpaint

@Maargen
"It doesn’t say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there – that’s a complete other discipline! What is so difficult for IDers to understand about this?? Maybe a human can look at something another human did and make comments about the motives and state of mind of that other human, but then that’s like speaking to like."

At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, did you or did you not say this? Are you not questioning the concept of rigorously ascertaining motive as opposed to agency irrespective of motive?

If you think it was an easy point to counter, then you shouldn't have made it.

OK then, ID isn't Science, then neither is 'Evolution' in the slippery way it's sometimes used to mean the action of a totally *insentient* process, like 'The Blind Watchmaker' of random mutation and natural selection. ID is philosophy, then fine. Richard Dawkins' books are works of philosophy then.

D-K

@Peelingpaint:

I fear you may have misunderstood my argument (and intent),
"because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency" agency itself displays specificity and complexity. In fact, I'm not taking any philosophical standpoint, I'm merely making an objective assesment of the logical construct displayed in the section I quoted from you, and point out what I percieve to be a paradox.

"There is no law that we know of that can produce them unaided"

Argumentum ad ignorantiam. Please note I do not attack your premise nor your conclusion, I merely intend to scrutinize the logical mechanics you provide in the assertions you make.

peelingpaint

@D-K

A point I forgot to make was, that even *if* it were true that intelligent design necessarily implies an infinite regression of designers of the designers (which I dispute) then so what? I don't think this scenario is that useful to suggest, but it seems no less strange than the proposition that sentience can emerge from insentient process -- a premise that Dennett et al would have us believe is 'scientific' (tho I'd like to know how it's 'falsifiable'), but I digress...

The point is, ID doesn't try to justify the implications of identifying design, just that design can be identified.

peelingpaint

@D-K

Right. So agency itself displays specificity and complexity. You say that my assertion that there' no known purely physical law that can produce it is an argument from ignorance. If by that you mean that the blind watchmaker mechanism of random mutation.. etc, is known to be able to produce it, then I deny that, not from 'ignorance', because I'm aware of the standard arguments for that idea, but because I think those arguments are flawed. If you meant that, then as I say, some very secular biologists would disagree with you and say that agency is the only thing we know of that can cause specified complexity, because the blind watchmaker can't. Of course some of them suggest that 'self-organisation' can be completely physical-- but it seems pretty much an empty phrase to me- like 'punctuated equilibrium', but I digress again...

QUOTE: [But your implication that ID suggests that the we can know everything *about* the intention, such as ‘why’ it was done, or whether the motive was ‘good’ is false, it only says that we can rigorously judge that there *was* an intention, that whatever we’re looking at was done *purposefully*.]

I made no such implication.

QUOTE: [If you think it was an easy point to counter, then you shouldn’t have made it]

Again - I didn't. What I said was that any inferences drawn about the existence and nature of a designer from the design was outside the realm of science, since science is only concerned with describing the design in naturalistic, material terms.

"Attention all students: Those interested in arguing for the existence of a designer from the existence of the design, please step down the hall to Philosophy class, where you can cover the same ground Thomas Aquinas did centuries ago. This happens to be Biology class, and we do not discuss that here."

And again, let's say every biologist in the world throws up their hands and says "great, you win. There's a designer behind the design" where would the "science" of Intelligent Design take us next?? After postulating that one thing, what breakthroughs, what methods, what applications, what predictions have any IDers ever suggested?? Maybe now that we know there's a designer, when there's a disease rather than looking to see if it's caused by some biologically evolved mutation or some other material cause that we should counter in some material way, we'll focus our research on finding out how to contact the designer to design us a cure?? Seriously, what's the big idea behind ID "science"?

Maargen

@peelingpaint:

And yes, much od Richard Dawkins work *is* philosophy. When he speaks about his belief that there is no God, he is making a philosophical statement, not a scientific one.

peelingpaint

@Maargen

The problem is indeed reading comprehension, because a lot of what you've said is incomprehensible because unclear and inconsistent.

Leaving it aside that you quite plainly *did* conflate the concepts of detecting the presence or past effect of purposeful action and detecting the motives that explain that action... you leave it unclear whether you're arguing with the concept of inferring agency, or just saying it's 'not science'. If you're saying that the appearance of design can be explained by known physical causes, so while there may be intention behind those causes, such a suggestion is superfluous (the coherent, if overstated position of neo-darwinism), then I disagree.

If you're not saying that, but saying that agency may well be the best explanation, but such a position isn't science, then the blind watchmaker hypothesis is not science by your criteria either-- even if were the best explanation.

I find it most confusing when you say that inferring the existence of a designer from design is the purview of philosophy-- I would have thought it was more a matter of grammatical consistency. If words can't be understood to have any meaning whatsoever we can't get started with philosophy or anything else that involves them.

If I'm rambling somewhat it comes as a result of trying to unpick the tangled and unorganised web of your statements.

What are the 'applications' use of the idea that the appearance of design is the result of random mutation and selection? No direct ones whatsoever, it merely serves as an overarching framework within which to make sense of data. In that way, it may play a constructive role, but the conceptual framework in which the Sun was thought to go round the Earth has played a constructive role for navigators in the past. If agency, design, intention, or whatever you want to call it is a better explanation to infer from the evidence, then it may provide a better conceptual framework. And besides all that, science is primarily about describing reality irrespective of utility.

Achems Razor

Cut to the chase, getting tired of some of this nonsensical verbage.
"People that talk in metaphors should shampoo my crotch."

Getting back to science. "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory this has already happened!"

All this God stuff, ID, Creationism, is passe, the quantum revolution is the next phase.

D-K

Well if the God stuff is passe and the quantum revolution is the next phase, what does that make the current phase?

The capitalist phase?

(sarcasm..)

Achems Razor

No, the phase we are in now is pre-class one civilization, when we achieve class one, all this god stuff will be gone, class two, will be able to control any threats from trying to blow ourselves up and any threats from space, meteors, asteroids, etc: class three, we will shoot for the stars!

contra contrail

Whatever might be thought about design, evolution and all the problems of bias and fraud found within academia, whomever wrote the 4000 word spiel clearly hadn't viewed the film.

On a related note, it is interesting that this web site pretends to make the entire film available but in reality does not. One might suspect that enlarging the audience and thus increasing informed debate on this film and the issues of concern are the very last things its critics desire.

eugler

I must say throughout the first 3 quarters of the film I found it funny as much as tragic because while being pretty silly it is perceivable that the more simple minded and uneducated could be persuaded by it. But the last 20 minutes just leave me disgusted and furious. Taking eugenics, facism and communism out of context in such a cheap manipulative way is incredible. What a disgusting person could milk the suffering and murder of millions to drive home his cheap point. This nauseating populist deserves nothing less than a firm smack in the back of his head for exploiting the tragedies that other people had to endure.

Lary Nine

Moreover... PS:
Please cite it correctly. The preferred spelling is "Occam's Razor", named after the English philosopher, William of Occam (1300-1349). "Achems Razor" sounds more like a sneeze all over a bathroom shaving mirror.

Achems Razor

@Vlatko,

Is there a reason why my comments will not go through?

Veratyr

Now that's a great peice of christian right propaganda. I like how they give the theory of evolution an ism, very nice touch.

Been following this eternal argument here (and elsewhere) with excitement and wanted to make a couple of observations or even philosophical conclusions (excuse me but english is my second language)

First is the issue of Hierarchy that exists in the universe, from the lightest atoms to Canis Majoris to the food chain with us at the top of it; it is only fair to assume that spirits too or god must be in their trilion trillions as there are universes, which means they all have someone above them who is the real dude,the
main man so what he does is he "raises" gods who in turm are given the job of running their own universe,
eg create it according to their image, obviously one god is anthropomorphic, another maybe like the Aliens movie creature and subsequent E.T. creatures come form their respective god (or star or even universe?)(if God exists in this sort of arrangement it is somewhat acceptable, because he is not perfect like his creation; we cannot tell yet, but soon - I hope in my lifetime- we will know if our god has excelled or screwed up with his model!

Secondly, even if an alien kind so technologically advanced to travel so fast for such long periods of time their social advancement would be of such a level they would have solved the mystery by now. The answer may be Panspermia (voila!)

Alien1: you still driving around in that old banger?
Alien2: seems unbelievable doesnt it? it weighs 1 trillion tonnes but it goes like a bullet, must be this stardustium I get at my local garage:P)

reid kirschenman

Most physicists don't attack religion because they don't take it seriously enough to even be called atheists.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1302090025 Sarah Bencic

I enjoyed the movie, I think we should like everything else in media thrown at us take it with a grain of salt. It encourages discussion and motivates people to think about what they are being taught rather than spewing back out what ever a professor tells you. This goes for people of any opinion in any field of study, your beliefs cannot be your own until you thoroughly and completely analyze and discuss them. Also to think critically about any subject you must put aside rampant emotion and petty agendas.

Guest

There is one very profound point Christopher Hitchens made: believe whatever you want but leave the rest of us alone. It is as simple as that.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

great link Larry, too bad a religious person will never willfully click on it and read the entire thing. hell most of them wont even read the entire bible and they believe it to be the word of god....they just clearly dont like to read.

Guest

??????? Epicurious, you take a Great Pleasure at nitpicking on religious people in general, but as you probably know many many people do not believe the words of the bible as having been written by the actual hand of GOD. I myself think the bible is the accumulation of some of the most popular "novels" of the time, now assembled, translated, edited, and raped of their originality and IF that is true, i also conclude that the writers were inspired by their immaterial realities and by the stories passed down through the ages.
Do you claim that such a thing as the principle of concious life, the incorporeal part of humans is bogus? That you never feel a sense of something grander than you within? A sense of order?
In my opinion science and religion are both running after a carrot on a race track but they are running in different direction. Every now and then they cross path and realize for a moment in time that the carrot dissapeared. In this present day and age, they are very close to that meeting thanks to Quantum science/religion sort of way of looking at the light of energy.
Reading is a great way to learn what others have discovered as their reality, the whole of what has ever been written is a long long long thread of one thought divided into branches like a huge tree, the tree of knowledge, the tree of life.

Science is the arrow, Spirituality is the heart, they belong together united towards a common goal of peace.

dear i am
i am
your 1 ZOA
the dough nut
may i call you
belly button
we are so much alike
so much a round
O my dear
this is a game of self
i play in life with my i
the pi of i and 1
is concealed in a ring of love
a growing circle
an i passing through O
like a jumping DOG
looking like a dot in a belly
i wanted to be unveiled
by a sighted person with wisdom
for when i have the opportunity
to be in contact with a person with wit
it rewards me with the feeling i long for
that is the reason i wrap around the globe
i look for instead of waiting to be found
i circled all around and found us
i bet my alpha bet
i found a shrewd 1 in you
i know little of the zoo of your mind
you seem like a fun playground
gazing in the reflection of your well
listening to the echo of your thoughts
i know mine is 1
yours could be too

az
a poet in her free time
a never quite ready story
a never ending tale
a boundless scroll
of revolving thoughts

Guest

I see you lost your star banner. Oups...i guess my old computer was slow picking!
az

Guest

Part of the comment i wrote under Why I am No Longer A Christian: "I disagree with you....Most atheists do not know the bible very well, no more than Most theists...the reason being the bible has dramatically changed since it was written, some of it was totally taken out or interpreted. Plus the majority of atheist and theist have no interest in reading the bible specially if they are not forced to do so like students in the "Old days".
I did not say: "that atheists dont know the bible better than christians."

What i meant to say (and may not have been clear although being french, i constantly make an effort to write a better english), is that the majority of atheists and theist do not know the bible very well. And the ones who think they do, don't in reality because they are reading a book of books that have been dramatically translated, interpreted, edited, changed and raped of their originality. Also most atheist and theist of our days *do not read the bible*, of course some still do.
Now Out of the ones who like to spend their time reading the bible i would guess your pew forum would be right in tallying the ones that eat every words as truth or not and recite it until they learn it by heart. What puzzles me is why an atheist would even care.
And for you to say "religious people just clearly don't like to read"...is why in my view you take a Great Pleasure at nitpicking on religious people in general. I have been reading your comments and i see no effort in your part to reconciled with people of faith even though that's what your name suggest.
I am neither an atheist or a theist even though i was raised in a Catholic family, the reason for this is because when i was 11 yrs old, my parents asked me: What do you feel and want: church on Sunday or not? I had already chosen...not. I must say i feel closer to being an animist but when this gets described to me by certain people, i see that i am not that either...i am i.
az

Guest

You are right in saying that my grasp on reality lacks...i totally intend it that way. The reality a lot people see does not fit my comprehension of what the world can be.
Change the way you are, the way you talk, and the world you live in will change and the world you make people live around you will change too....slowly slowly one day, one reaction at a time.
az

Guest

...and if you look below to my comment with the poetry...there are a couple of questions i would like you to answer...
You may have to close your eyes, sit under the stars on a clear night(a hard thing to do in Toronto), hear the ringing in your brain, feel the world squeeze you until you seem to dissapear...and then you will be your personal i, neither atheist neither theist, neither caring about labelling your higher Self. That label belongs to your ego, the loud bogger we all have inside of us, the one to conquer in order to reach reconciliation.

for a Self is a self
because of the empty nest of people
on each side of that person
with others eyes in eyes
a phrase of us is written
a word is a word
because of the space
beside the first and last letter
unbound in our mind
like a seed's ability
i seed it as a growing game
to capture the gushing wave
inside the shell of i
storytellers conceive in exciting
possible tomorrows and yesterdays
and sometimes in crazy presents

az
a poet in her free time

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

*sigh* i hate not being able to reply directly to the comment you make...

first off you have very good english. im always impressed with people who know more than one language. wish i had learned french.

now the thing about the bible is that even though it has been changed the fact still remains that atheists on average know it better including the history behind it, than the christians. this is because most atheists were once christians who became atheist BECAUSE they read the bible and saw how silly it is and how inaccurate it describes the world. also christians dont know it very well because they are only encouraged to pay attention to certain verses...usually the ones repeated at church. they leave out the immoral parts or the clearly silly parts like the talking donkey and Balaam. The reason an atheist would bother themselves with learning the bible aside from them possibly having been christian is that its a good idea to understand the claims made by the position that claims you are wrong. its easier to hold a position against something if you actually understand the claims made by that thing.

now you say you are not atheist or theist...well thats not true. thats like saying you are not a boy or a girl. you either believe there is some kind of god or you do not believe there is some kind of god. so either you are an atheist or a theist.

now my comments to theists might seem negative or hostile, but first i find that im not talking to children. we are adults here and we dont need to be coddled. if someone is offended when people laugh at their beliefs then they shouldnt have such funny beliefs (HA im funny!). but honestly if they have the nerve to tell other people they are going to hell for not thinking like them, i ought to have the right to point out the flaw in their logic. im not imposing my beliefs on them through voting like they do when they vote against gay marriage or against stem cell research or abortion....how come religious people are allowed to constantly intrude on our lives but we have to give them complete respect even though their beliefs are silly.?

i have no urge to reconcile with people of faith, THEY need to reconcile their faith with known science and logic.

Guest

Same here about not being able to apply the reply below your reply...although if we look at it differently and switch to "Sort by Oldest First", go straight to page 73, then it all make sense. Often times looking at things in a different way reveals a solution.
My english has grown from me being sent to an english school when i was 12 and not knowing a word of english other than a very very very minimum, to spending 4yrs of high school where i flunked every year, to finally learning to speak in front of others in a photography darkroom (in the dark) in that same school (the only class i passed with high marks), to ending my high school years without a diploma, to travelling and travelling to where i now am. My poetry is written with a french heart in some sort of an english brain.
Ok so i see your point about the readers of the bible but i remain set on the fact that the bible is not longer the bible, it is laced with a bunch of babble between some very beautiful thoughts here and there. I sometimes wonder why the addition of books was stopped, and to who's advantage was this decision made for. We may be tempted to blame the religious people of the past but then we have to define what being religious represented in those days....GOD or Power?
Atheist or theist...i think one day it will be realized that i am GOD as much as you are and as much as your neighbour is. Do i believe in a GOD outside of me? no and yes, so i am neither. I stand in the middle of the circle like a jumping DOG.
There are many battles for people to play with in order to reach peace and the best one is to mold the ego within one self, that's why i call my self a Dough Nut. When i see a fight i don't see the fighter i see the trail of thoughts he carries behind and i also see that in myself. The wedding dress train and the toxedo tails represents this very well.
az

athenascurse

Then where would the process of civilization go?
Leaving something alone is just an easy way of
saying. I don't want to be contaminated by the idea
of science or anything other than God.
To me, its a cop out. What would we learn if we left
this alone?

Guest

It is a rare success to persuade someone who is commited to a religious belief, of any type, to look at possible alternatives. I am suggesting that they stop proselytizing their particular brand, stop tampering, or trying to tamper, with secular laws and, as hard as it may be, to live quiet lives at peace with others. Perhaps you are right; it is a cop out, but I feel we would all be better off if religion were kept personal and not loud, political, nasty, dogmatic and devisive so that we could act as a common species solving the same serious problems we have on this pale blue dot.

TheRealMax

Alexer,
I still love you. :X

NiceGuy007

ok, but it does not change the fact that this movie labels science as freedom of speech or opinion.....this doc is an abomination!!! This creationist/ID perspective is purely belief and opinion. Science is about FACTS......If you want to go by facts watch "why people laugh at creationists." Ben Stein is an extremely narrow minded and paranoid individual. It is actually painful to watch...

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

if you were in science class learning how babies are born and someone argues with the teacher and claims storks bring babies what do you do?

that is exactly the same as saying life doesnt evolve but just pops into existence suddenly.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Alex-Watanen/681655185 Alex Watanen

The Reagan speech thrown in at the end was the icing on the cake! I don't hate religious people, but I sure as hell hate Reagan. If an afterlife exists I hope whoever happens to be there is smacking Reagan like a bitch!

http://profiles.google.com/kbeko99 Klodi beko

subtitles?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Justin-Mars/1021563074 Justin Mars

Your not even old enough to have a opinion on Reagan. You were not even alive when he was president. I suppose your hero is Carter.

roggerc

"Science is based on empirical observation...." Oh, you mean like the empirical observation Dawkins referred to when asked how the original building blocks of life came into being, and how they went from inorganic to organic, to which he replied, "I don't know." How uninspiringly unscientific. Doesn't it trouble you that Darwin's theory can't account for the existence of the building block materials in the first place, with Darwinists saying they were essentially "just there," but yet anyone who ventures to suggest that life may been created (and "just appeared" in the words of more than one Darwinist in the movie)? Isn't that intellectual censorship?

Seems to me, Spiderman156, that the origin of the building blocks of life (in whatever form) cannot be empirically observed, especially since top Darwinists such as Richard Dawkins just shrug their shoulders when asked where the elements came from. "We don't know. It just took a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really long time." LOL That's just pathetic. You don't really know so you just say it took a really long time.

Piggy-backing on crystals?? Alien life forms possibly seeding the earth? Why don't you have a problem with these ideas? When faced with truly tough questions, the kind of questions ID proponents, or even those just seeking the truth from either side, get scolded for asking, Darwinists are just chucking up some random theory without any true evidence. Isn't that just extremely dubious science? Science is supposed to be about observing facts, as you say, then forming a hypothesis. Spewing forth random alien probe and crystal ball theories is not pure science. These are fairytales every bit as much as religion. Besides, alien seeding is basically ID, is it not? Isn't it saying that we on earth may have been intelligently designed by aliens? How would we know that if we don't make room for ID theories in the scientific community?

BTW, nano scientists have discovered that vibration is at the core of every cell. You say that God creating the universe by speaking it into being cannot be observed and therefore a testable hypothesis cannot be formulated, yet vibration is at the core speech, and we are learning that vibration is also at the core of everything, including inanimate, inorganic objects. That "coincidence" alone should, at the very least, allow us to ID theories, in addition to evolution theories.

over the edge

firstly "we don't know yet" is better then" god did it". and the origins of life have nothing to do with evolution or darwins theory. the problem with id is it invokes the "supernatural" and by definition science deals with only natural causes. when id tries to pretend it is scientific (irreducible complexity) it gets easily disproved. it has been dis proven by the courts (dover trials) and shown to be creationism relabeled ( of pandas and people) just changed creator (god) to designer (god wearing fake mustache). no peer reviewed papers supporting the theory and no hard evidence. you can point to the gaps in the fossil record or the things we haven't worked out yet but until you show testable repeatable peer reviewed evidence for your claim, id is not science period

http://www.facebook.com/people/Julio-Medina/1385644286 Julio Medina

Kind of like the universe just popping up all of a sudden or the first cell. Evolution is a religion!!! It requires one to believe when there is no proof.

Guest

@Vlatko...would it be possible that at the bottom where the page number are, that you add a little box where one can type the exact page where one wants to go. It would facilitate re-reading past comments, and skipping the pages one wants to skip?
pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee
az

robertallen1

@Julio Medina

Perhaps you've heard something about current strains of bacteria resistant to every known antibiotic? Maybe you've had problems getting rid of cockroaches due to their developed immunity to insecticides? In case you haven't guessed it, these are common, everyday occurrences of evotion.

If it's more proof you're after, how about a trip to the zoo, a trek through the woods, an excursion to the farm--Darwin did all these and came up with something. You've obviously done none of these and have come up with nothing.

Don't insult science by confounding acceptance of evolution with belief in your cheap sense of the word. Evolution achieves its support through physical evidence and nohing else! Can you come up with anything more salient, consistent and intellectually satisfying?

So before you go spouting off at the pen with your dangerous ignorance, learn whereof you write!!!

over the edge

@Julio Medina
evolution is a fact.i am tired of educating the ignorant. i always wondered why some are rude on this site now i understand. evolution has nothing to do with the start of the universe or the beginning of life. evolution is a fact i will provide you with the evidence for evolution (empirical ) if you can show the same for whatever crackpot alternative you hold dearly. is that fair? you say evolution is a religion here is Websters definitions show me where evolution fits "the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith " if you are going to attack evolution at least have a basic education in what you are attacking

Achems_Razor

Good idea, hardly ever takes you to the post on the link, have to search, and for some posts that are loooong, I don't even bother.

WTC7

I usually get to the link, but I definitely preferred the way the posts were displayed in the past. Also, don't think typing the page you want helps a lot - even if you know on what page the comment you wanted to review was, it may have changed in the meantime due to the reply system which makes all the posts move. It is a bit messy in my opinion...

Achems_Razor

@WTC7:

Yes, I also definitely liked the way the posts were displayed in the past, a person could scroll through them like a running commentary, from the oldest to the newest with no lags in between. Like reading a book. With this system everything seems disjointed, goes all over the place. Does not give you a crux to the matter.

No, giving the page number wont work , as the pages change constantly. And most replies have to look for them, wont go directly to the post.

On docs that have a lot of posts, don't feel like looking through hundreds of posts for the reply's. So usually don't bother. Need patience which I do not seem to have, lol.

peelo

If you are to believe in macroevolution, you've got to believe that atheistic scientists don't let their personal beliefs influence their interpretations of scientific findings.

I don't believe.

http://www.facebook.com/JakeTheShnakeMcNally Jake Mc Nally

I recently watched "Why people laugh at creationists" and thought it only fair to watch this as to have a non biased perspective on the issue. I honestly commend any scientist who has to put up with anyone who takes this kind of material seriously. This whole documentary is about how people with ideas on creationism and more so Intelligent Design are being bullied and denied their birth right of free speech. They want to become part of the field of science and offer their views, however they have on numerous occasions tried this and failed due to their sheer lack of evidence and knowledge which is exactly what science is based around. Nobody is denying their right to free speech they can say it all they want, but if they want to come into the field of science and say it, they're going to need need to have alot more backup. Hence this is the reason for the Discovery Institute's tiny offices lost somewhere in the downtown area of an American City.
Every piece of what they would call evidence against Darwinian theories can be properly refuted in the "Why People Laugh At Creationists" videos in a well put and logical manner. Even how one of the main interviewee's in this Documentary would not stand up for intelligent design in the trial spoken about in this film.
This documentary dramaticises its points in order to make them sound more solid using phrases like Darwinism, which makes it sound like a definite solution that people follow, is hollow as its well known that all ideas brought up by Newton and Darwin and so on have been refined and re tested and refined and retested over and over again, however this documentary acts like scientists still strictly believe in Darwin's first ideas when this is completely untrue but as I say this is a dramatic technique.
If people want to challenge science properly with their ideas they need to offer proof or statistical analysis or something to give some depth to their ideas. Don't just make a documentary and act like the victim when you have been ample opportunity to offer your views.
I agree with views about taking all views with a pinch of salt even if they are scientifically proven but when u try to then pass off the idea of Creationism and Intelligent Design after that statement you are only taking advantage of skeptics!
I have no qualifications in science or anything like that this is just a normal logical persons view on the whole thing which i think is pretty straight forward!

Angelica Guerrero

I'm not old enough to harken back to Roosevelt's New Deal program, but I am informed about it. You see, there is this marvelous thing you can do on your own time called "Research". Perhaps you should try it some time. Also, the notion that you have to be old enough to have an opinion on a historical figure you weren't alive to see is a fallacy. I suppose you weren't alive at the time Hitler was in power. Does that mean you shouldn't be able to have an opinion on his methods of governing?

Angelica Guerrero

I watched this for the laughs, Mates! This is probably the funniest I have ever found Mr. Stein.

Guest

At the end, that doc shows that the main narrator already had his own opinion made up.
And it take a while before we realise what that doc is all about.
Other than that, it's nice to hear scientists justifying their views.

SFXkilla

very well said......long winded but well said : ) (joking) i also watched this to counterpoint why people laugh at creationists and found myself appalled that people are being presented with this drek as fact when there is nothing of substance here I feel sorry for the children that get indoctrinated at an age where they cant form a proper opinion on such matters

SFXkilla

how is it possible to belive in microevolution and not macroevolution It is exactly the same thing there is no difference it only happens on a longer timescale. Microevolution just proves that genetic drift is possible look what we have done to dogs just in last 500 years do you think that if left alone to breed as they see fit they will all revert to wolves again they are changed forever that is how new species are created (for lack of a better term) and each of those different sub species will go on to look less and less like the commen dog ancestor and what do you think directed breeding would do in 2 million years? I bet we could produce a creature that wouldnt even look like a dog evolution works the same way as directed breeding but instead of nutering the animal the ones that dont breed are dead because they werent successful at finding food evading a predator or whatever

mlundborg

[...]you will find that this documentary is overly biased[...] Scientists who have allegedly had their lives ruined because of their belief in something called “Intelligent Design.” Science isn’t here to persecute people’s beliefs and this concept would probably outrage anyone…[...]

You have to admit the irony is overwhelming.

mlundborg

This is the whole point of the movie. The politics of "Science" have gone beyond science and imposed beliefs that do not leave the rest of us alone.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLWKMOHKMQW354XQPM3BJ5LNNM Tiffany

"He doesn’t even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught."

Pssst... Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community because IT IS NOT SCIENCE. Evolution is taught because it is based on scientific evidence. ID is a philosophy, not a biological science. There's no reason to not teach ID, it just shouldn't be taught in a science class.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QEE5GQMXDNSTZXPOGOTSQKAQ2E dj

For your statement to have any basis at all you have to assume equivalence - that is that both the big white guy in the sky and scientific hypothesis are of equal merit. In any event, "Science" is not a belief, it is a process by which a theory is proposed, evidence is weighed and a consensus is reached pending discovery of better evidence. Religion on the other hand is a belief, it by definition has to be founded on faith and if you turn on the spotlight of any rational consideration of its claims it disappears into a puff of smoke.

Andrew Preston

very very well said.

robertallen1

Thank you.

WesB

I am failing to see how Evolution is less theoretical than Intelligent Design. To my understanding, the only thing that science has proven in favor of evolutionary theory is that species share similar DNA and Chromosomes which is made plain by mere observation. There have not been any fossils found that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans and apes have evolved from a common ancestor. I know that there have been fossils discovered that depict primates that could walk upright but does that prove common ancestry or an extinct species of primate? If that is a common ancestor than why do we not see others like the chimpanzees walking upright. Did humans just get lucky enough to catch that DNA that the chimps missed out on?

I am not trying to be confrontational, just asking questions and would love a good respectable discussion if anyone has any thoughts.

Atheist13

@WesB

I have this thought for you! Get an education and open your eyes.

Are you trolling?

WesB

That's not quite the discussion that I was looking for but thanks for the thought.

robertallen1

Observation from evidence is what it's all about. Thus, evolution has it all over intelligent design which uses none. A theory in the scientific sense implies a direction in which the preponderance of the evidence points and is not synonymous with its more popular use to mean conjecture, such as the conjecture of intelligent design.

To quench what appears to be a sincere thirst, I suggest any of Richard Dawkins' works, especially "The Ancestor's Tale." One of the interesting points Dr. Dawkins makes is that even without fossils, we can determine the "ancestor's tale" based on DNA. Furthermore, Dr. Dawkins answers your inquiry regarding chimps and genetics in general far better than I can, as he has the scientific training which I lack.

Thanks for your inquiry.

WesB

I suppose Intelligent Design does have to rely more heavily on philosophical theory than evolution. A response such as, "That's just the way it was created," compared to, "This fossil or this DNA strand possibly shows common ancestry," doesn't quite measure up.

Does "The Ancestor's Tale" draw from the Chromosome 2 discovery? I must say that Chromosome 2 is an interesting finding and I have heard good debates on both sides. Again though, I see these things as more similarity among species rather than sharing a common ancestor. I have not read Dawkins' books but I have heard lectures. I will have to look into his works in further depth.

Thank you for a respectful reply.

robertallen1

Anything that must rely on philosophy for its justification, such as intelligent design, is scientific bunk. In short, there is nothing intelligent about intelligent design. You might find it enlightening to read the article on it in Wikipedia.

While there is considerable discussion of chromozomes in "The Ancestor's Tale," I cannot recall if Dr. Dawkins goes into chromozome 2 in any great detail, as he is basically writing for a lay audience. However, as I understand it, research into this chromozome is one of the main bases for asserting the common ancestry of all living things.

I find that both interspecial and intraspecial similarity are both evidence of a common ancestor. Compare the arms of a man, the wings of a bird and the fins of a fish.

Atheist13

@WesB

My apologies, I thought you were trolling.

I would add "The Selfish Gene" and "The Extented Phenotype" both by Dawkins to robertallen1's excellent suggestions.

WesB

I see your point. It would seem that intelligent design is failing in comparison in bringing scientific findings to support their ideas. There is nothing scientifically intelligent about intelligent design because it looks at what science has observed of species and concludes that because their design is intricate, complex and purposeful, something intelligent must have created them.Intelligent design is not anti-science but simply comes to a different conclusion based on scientific discovery.

Now, that is most definitely because they approach science with a circular reasoning mindset but does evolution not do the same? An evolutionist compares arms, wings and fins and says that these similarities show common ancestry (of course that conclusion is based on other biological, skeletal, etc. similarities as well). But in the end, that's all that either side has, similarities. And taking observation into account. We have nothing that has been discovered proving macro-evolution took place, but assumes that based on what has been discovered,the findings show evolution and since no one was there to witness anything, intelligent design has no defense against the assertion. Which of course is the same problem that intelligent design faces when trying to promote themselves; we weren't there to observe it, therefore it isn't scientific. So should we not say the same thing for evolution then? It seems to me that all they have is all that the intelligent design community has, similarities.

Of course I could be missing something which is why I will look in to Dr. Dawkins further.

robertallen1

@WesB

If I tell you what was in a dinosaur's stomach at the time it was frozen solid, then back that up with what was in other dinosaur's stomachs at about the same time and then draw conclusions on the dinosaur's diet, I have gone through a scientific and logical progression. If I conclude that a certain dinosaur was a predator based on an examination of its structure, once again I have gone through a logical and scientific progression. Intelligent design offers no such logical progression. It merely argues without proof or support that the complexity of things is beyond nature (an untruth) and irreducible (another untruth) and therefore this must all be due to an intelligent creator. Its only "evidence" is the complexity of things. This is far from a different conclusion based on the evidence; it's an unsubstantiated quantum leap based on falsehood.

The concept of "no one was there so we can't know" or "I don't see it, therefore it does not exist" is too puerile for a person of your intelligence, considering some of the issues you have raised.

But let me set you straight on one thing: the distinction between micro and macroevolution is a myth dreamt up by creationists. It's all evolution.

For some interesting reading and viewing, try the decision in "Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board." It's on the internet and there is a fine documentary on this site.

Keep up the research and especially the thinking.

Picaboca

Why does the description of the documentary sound more like a negative comment?

robertallen1

I think your question might be answered by another documentary about "No Intelligence Allowed" on this site.

robertallen1

I think your question might be answered by another documentary about "No Intelligence Allowed" on this site.

Picaboca

Which documentary?

robertallen1

@BigRatings

Ben Stein's Flunked: No Intelligence Allowed.

I apologize for not having provided it.

sistermaryannskeptic

How can you be the most pretensions person on the planet and produce a documentary with zero substance? … Fast intercuts of painfully typical, pointless, sarcastic stock footage, ten second snippets of what was probably hours and hours of interviews, however filmed only for the inflammatory or solely expected parts within them, whiny as-a-matter-of-fact game show host. This documentary feels like it was produced by Mtv.

I didn’t find anything of interest in this and I think its title should be considered at face value, more of a literal description of its content than its posturing, ironically intended meaning.

I was really hopping for some new age take on Intelligent Design “theory” or at least a laugh but I got neither. This doc was really trashy.

However, this is a fantastic website though isn’t it? I haven’t watched cable television for a year now … because I’ve been engaged to something else. High-five Top Doc! You rock! Let’s get married.

Robot123

Im sorry but I only manged to watch on hour of this Doc as I could bare iy no longer. It like many others of its kind have no substance.

LauraSchleifer

If it's true that there is "No Intelligence Allowed", then Ben Stein is a man who always plays by the rules.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SYKKGDU56I5AKSN2KHATRVZQBY Amsterdamaged.net

Ben Stein is a staunch Zionist and supporter of oppression and apartheid. He was a speech writer for Richard Nixon. He understands the intricate workings of propaganda and the general bullshitting of the public. I wouldn't waste my bandwidth!

http://twitter.com/dcordes71152 Denise Cordes

Maybe all species' upper extremities are in the image of God? That intelligent design would have less credibility than seeding by aliens or a molecule becoming organic from the back of an inorganic crystal is ridiculous. But more importantly, that this cannot be discussed without scientists being fired is frightening.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2L5NPGHFHBQBL3NRFDJLPHVKO4 Curtiss

Peep Dis!

I ACTUALLY DID WATCH THIS ENTIRE DOCUMENTRY.

After watching this I took a moment to skim the comments below and found it curious to see how desperate some people are to dismiss, this documentary and do their darndest to discourage anyone else from seeing it.

FIRST LETS REVIEW THE “OFFICIAL” REVIEW:

My father likes to say that a faulty premise will always bring about a faulty conclusion. So true!

The first faulty premise in this “Review” is that Stein “paints science as the root of this evil.” This is simply not accurate.

Heres the truth. To the contrary, Stein glorifies and admires science and scientific discovery; for example all the amazing new knowledge we are finding about our universe, mathematics and probability, as well as current insights into the complexity of our DNA and Cell Biology. What Stein does do is not so much “paint”, but methodically unmasks the hypocrisy of how many leaders in Science and Academia zealously distort science to support their own (highly faith-based) beliefs in Atheism (The Un-Religion) and Macro-Evolutionism; viciously attacking and expelling anyone who would dare even to question their faith.

The 2nd faulty premise is the straw man argument that “If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he’d go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens.” To be fair few people are ever persecuted or expelled by any establishment for supporting it! Imagine someone saying that for example youth trapped in Christian Boarding schools who use physical abuse as “godly punishment” not speaking out from inside their situation to try to discredit people who escape those situations and have the courage to speak out. I think these types of arguments tell us more about the person doing the review than anything else.

Also the review states that “He only sticks to questions concerning how life began.” Also no true.

Stein takes great pains I think to get a clear picture of what Evolutionism is and is not; that is to say it was never an explanation of how life began; but only a theory of how life evolved once it was here. Darwin’s theory doesn't begin until you have the first cell.

By far THE BIGGEST FIB in this review is that Stein “doesn’t even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught.”

In reality much of the film has Stein dispassionately going back and for to proponents of Evolutionism and Intelligent Design asking very tuff questions to all to try to get to the hear of this very question.

This reviewers description of Steins interaction with Michael Ruse is also telling. In actuality Stein does credit him and introduces him as a prominent proponent of Evolutionism. What really struck me about that exchange was the pompous presentation of Ruse presenting his theory that life on earth began by molecules piggy backing on the backs of crystals, and of course with crystals there are mistakes and mutations and in this process OF COURSE you get more and more complexity until you have life! Its fascinating to me that if Michael Ruse had mused that life on hearth could have begun by the god Poseidon slamming his crystal trident into the primordial soup and magically aligning the molecules that clinging to it to create life, Dr Dawkins might resort to cheesy put downs, calling him stupid, ignorant, or totally insane.

I think the people who come off most credible when talking about this subject are those that aren’t' made punch drunk with the wine of their own self importance or intelligence. I think to honestly tackle these big questions requires great humility.

“Admitting our biases is the best way to rational discussion”

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

Why is this Science documentary "expelled" into the Religion section?

Guest

Well done Ben Stein. This documentary tells the truth and those who don't like it are sure to try to bring it down. The battle is on against an atheistic culture that can no longer reason.

robertallen1

1. What's the matter with an atheistic culture?
2. What makes you think that an atheistic culture can no longer reason?
3. What makes you think that this documentary tells the truth?
4. What makes you think that Ben Stein has anything amounting to intelligence?
5. What makes you think that you have anything amounting to intelligence?

And to all the Id peoples out there ; filling the blanks with themagicmandidit isn't science.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

LOL its not science that is why. it is completely religious and has no science in it.

it would be as if a group of people that wanted to teach that storks bring babies got mad if they werent allowed to teach sex education.

http://www.facebook.com/vic.demise Vic Demise

That is the stupidest thing I've read all week.
(Maybe God will deliver your message to Ben while he's busy NOT delivering anyone from the horrors of a made-up hell).
No Atheist will try to "bring down" this movie- it's too darned amusing!

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

Apparently this film is true...there really is an agenda to expell anything contrary to Darwinian Athiesm by first labeling it as inferior and then expelling it away from view/topic/conversation so it can't have a chance to prove itself otherwise.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

You mean like "Expelling" this documentary to the Religious section instead of the Science section? Or even Conspiracy section? It's the Athiests who WANT it in the Religious section. What better arguement against something that challanges Athiests than to have it seen as illegitamate from the get go ("oh it's in the Religious section...can't take it seriously now...")...then Athiests can avoid having to deal with it. If Storks don't bring Babies...you should be able to say why...not just say "that's rediculous...we're not going to entertain that idea"....

robertallen1

"Apparently this film is true . . . " Where do you get your information?

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

From comments like yours. Pretty much all the "against" comments I've read here about this film are the kinds of comments/reactions from pro-Atheists that this film shows exist. I've not read any "against" comment that has me thinking, "yeah, this movie is totally off...those sentiments don't exist"...quite the opposite actually.

robertallen1

First, you haven't answered my question.

Secondly, all the "pro-Atheists" I've met and read seem to be more knowledgable and intelligent than you've shown yourself to be. So guess with whom I side.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

1st: I answered your question.

2nd: Your own. Duh.

Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.

I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.

Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to he Religion section.

Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like reviews of most of all the other documents on this site).

Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my ideas that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....

Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

Well, when I went to answer your question about me apparently not answering where I get my information on how I think the film is true about how there is an agenda to expell anything contrary to Darwinian Athiesm by first labeling it as inferior and then expelling it away from view/topic/conversation so it can't have a chance to prove itself otherwise...I got a message that my comment needed to be approved by a moderator...and it hasn't been posted yet...so...does that answer your question as to where I'm getting my information about why I might think this film might be true about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behavior out there?

I'm reposting my reply here since I was allowed to post/edit this message without censorship.

1st: I answered your question.

2nd: Your own. Duh.

Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.

I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.

Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to the Religion section.

Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like most of all the other reviews on this site).

Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my information that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....

Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that....

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

1st: I answered your question.

2nd: Your own. Duh.

Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.

I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.

Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to he Religion section.

Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like reviews of most of all the other documents on this site).

Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my ideas that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....

Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that.

robertallen1

Do you even make sense to yourself, for you certainly don't to me.

To state it simply, intelligent design is illogical and unsupported by evidence. As it posits the existence of a supreme being, it is theology (or religion) and not science.

I suggest you read the decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover School District which is on the internet. There is also a fine documentary about this case on this website.

From your last two posts, you need more than a moderator.

robertallen1

You think you have disproved my my statement by merely stating that it is not so. So much for your ability to argue.

Any research into why the professors mentioned at beginning of this documentary were really fired would have revealed this documentary for the series of lies and half-truths that it is. So please don't scream suppression and repression where none exists.

Now, with all this try to provide some logical and evidentiary support for intelligent design, even if you have to dumb it down for the likes of me.

Achems_Razor

@loyell13:

There is no censorship, you are putting Top - documentary - Films . com that comes up as an url as not found, I changed all those to TDF, and also had to change your talkorigins site a bit so it would come up.
You owe me...just joking.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

no that is not true at all. if there is any evidence that goes agains evolution it would be the focus of attention and the discoverer would be given millions in grant money.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

I figured as much.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

but it fundamentally is a religious argument. intelligent design stems from creationism. it implies a supernatural creator. it is religious.

robertallen1

@Lovell13

As Epicurus and Achems_Razor have tried to drum into you, the documentary is fine where it is.

Also, I see that Epicurus has cited the relevant portions of Kitmiller v. Dover School District. Why don't you take advantage of his generosity and read his post and perhaps the entire decision?

Remember, INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS NOT SCIENCE!!!

robertallen1

I notice that you have omitted the real reasons for those professors being terminated. contrary to those posited by Stein.

I notice that you have omitted the moronically embarassing conversation of Mr. Stein with Dr. Dawkins, especially the asinine and inaccurate commentary in the background.

I notice that you have omitted Mr. Stein's idiotic and ignorant
use of Nazi Germany to justify the necessity for belief in a supreme being.

Why don't you face it, Stein lacks the intelligence or the ability to ask anyone "tuff" questions much less analyze issues.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

I haven't omitted anything not worth omitting.

I do want to use that omitted word and say that you have omitted links/references to your claims of "real reasons" and "emarassing conversation" and "use of Nazi Germany." Without links/references I'm going to have to call you out as a truth fabricator.

But hey...if it makes you happy...eh hem..."Stein lacks the intelligence or ability to ask anyone "tuff" questions much less analyze issues." Happy?

Now, what Stein doesn't lack is the ability to bring to the forefront the anomosity that exists Against Intelligent Design ideas and theorists.

So far you haven't said anything that has me re-thinking that perhaps the films is wrong about the existance of anti-intelligent-design behavior. The one thing you asked me to look up only had me more convinced that there IS alarming behavior against Intelligent Design (Kitzmiller v. Dover).

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

The United States House and Senate voted on invading Iraq...making it a Legal action within the laws of the United States to do so. But the invasion was not legal and was declared by the UN as an illegal occupation (as opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan). The US decision was essentially no different than when the Iraq government found within its system Legal grounds to invade Kuwait. My point? Courts have no business deciding what is legitimate on matters that are outside of their own law system. One could site this court decision as why Intelligent Design is not Science. But that does not make the evidence for intelligent design unscientific. The evidence that there is an intelligent designer does not care that this court ruled that the term Intelligent Design is not legally Scientific. What transpired in that courtroom was the legal repression and now suppression of Intelligent Design ideas. Courts of Law should leave Science alone and they have no business ruling what is and is not Science.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

The evidence for Intelligent Design could care less that it's called science or not.

But this topic is NOT a religious topic, it's a Scientific topic.

Because evidence for an intelligent designer (vs say a blind watchmaker) should be examined and judged by scientists...not clergy (and definitely not by courts).

Religious groups using Intelligent Design to attempt a legal advancement of their religious agenda...and then getting legally thwarted...shouldn't stop investigation and dialogue about the evidence of an intelligent designer. I think that's why this film does not touch on the Kitzmiller v. Dover case. As the case is not the point. But rather the evidence of intelligent design and especially the scientific examination of intelligent design evidence is. Let's have the evidence out in the open and scientifically examined and discussed. Then we can settle this once and for all (instead of eloquently saying back and forth over a website "you're wrong" over and over).

robertallen1

The embarassing conversation between Stein and Dr. Dawkins is right in the documentary as is Stein's moronic use of Nazi Germany to justify a belief in a higher being. Another documentary on this site provides the real reasons behind the terminations of those professors which it turns out were wholly justified and had nothing to do with intellectual freedom contrary to what Stein (and his creationist sponsors) would have us believe.

And speaking of truth fabricators, what about Mr. Behe who lied about the flagellum during the trial in Kitzmiller and the member of the school board who lied about having provided creationist textbooks to students, behavior typical of those who support intelligent design as the perusal of any intelligent design publication will reveal. If intelligent design is valid, why do its proponents have to lie, misstate and deceive to support it.

I know I'm being a fool to appeal to your judgment ("I haven't omitted anything not worth omitting"--hah!).

The animosity against intelligent design isn't alarming; it's deserved, especially considering the idiocy propounded and the caliber of the individuals propounding it.

robertallen1

I expected you to miss the point. Science classes are for the teaching of science and intelligent design is simply not science; it's a form of religion or theology. Astrology, phrenology, eugenics are also not sciences and are correctly excluded from the classroom, despite the efforts of those who believe in them. Somehow this simple concept has failed to penetrate despite the efforts of several posters.

With intelligence and comprehension this limited, you have the gall to decree the purview of the courts.

How soon before the potentcy of that animosity resembles Nazi Germany's concentration camps?

Oh...and robertallen1...please learn to reference...please. Per lack of references...again...I'm going to have to call you out as a truth fabricator again.

robertallen1

Two of my references are in the documentary itself--they're easy enough to find, except perhaps by you. For the third see "Ben Stein's Flunked" which is also on this website.

Of course, the animosity is real. Why says it isn't? However, your linking of this animosity against the pseudoscientific with the concentration camps is puerile and pathetic.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

Everyone, listen to how robertallen1 speaks, "with intelligence and comprehension this limited, you have the gall to decree the purview of the courts." This after he wrote, "I expected you to miss the point." This is not an intelligent or reasonable approach to any dialogue. It's divisive, aggressive, rude, disparaging, and a horrendous way to try and proselytize the Atheist Faith.

As for his point, I have above average intelligence and above average comprehension and I do have the gall to decree the purview of the courts because I think for myself.

One of the argument tactics I've found that those of the Atheist Faith do when in an online discussion (Trolls do this too) is to ask the opponent to go find gobs and gobs of information and then get back to them. Two things happen when the opponent does this. 1. They find out details the Atheist Faith member missed and bring it up. or 2. They can't find the information. In either scenario, the common response by the Atheist Faith member is to either not address what the opponent brings up or to reference more gobs and gobs of information. So it becomes a never ending journey to find gobs and gobs of information that in the end...the Atheist Faith Member (sometimes Troll) does not even discuss anyways.
With an attitude of "I expect you to miss the point" I'm not interested in further dialogue with robertallen1. That's outright admission of Trolling.

robertallen1

First of all, I wasn't speaking, I was writing.

Secondly, you assume that I'm an atheist.

So much for your intelligence and comprehension.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

If we don't know our universe is closed or not then we don't know if there needed to be an external Agent or not. So what we have is not certainty that there is no external Agent (the Atheism Faith) but uncertainty if there is an external Agent or not (Agnosticism). With Agnosticism one can remain humble in their unknowing or they can arrogantly claim that their Deist Faith is true, or that their Theist Faith is true or that their Atheist Faith is true.

And no my evidence is not a variation of the standard creationist canard. It's the result of my own 2+2 = 4 thinking process.

Guest

He may not be a Troll but he uses the word intelligence in a negative way more than anyone else here.
Wait til he starts correcting the grammar on your posts...i feel it coming.
And don't call him Bob, although boballen sounds joyous.
lol
az

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

Vlatko by not addressing my logic about Agnosticism vs the Atheist Faith you appear to lack faith in your own ability to defend your beliefs against my logic.

If that is true it doesn't surprise me that with that level of faith/confidence in defending your beliefs against my logic you try the tactic of expelling (and that in the comments about a film about expelling opposition).

You've used your authority as a TDF admin and tried to appeal to readers to view me as a creationist (but you don't know me) and that since it is impossible to discuss with a creationist (which is not scientifically proven but simply your own opinion) they should view it as is impossible to discuss with me (the effect being the same as expelling me if they do).

I don't know if it's impossible to discuss with you Vlatko because I never have discussed with you. And Vlatko I will not pre-judge that I cannot discuss with you because of your Faith (whatever that may be). And I will not appeal to readers to pre-judge you that way either.

It's cool you have a website (TDF) that you can proselytize your Faith with Vlatko. More people should be as confident as you about their Faith as that. But to so openly attempt to suppress opposition to your Faith by labelling me and opposition as un-discussable does not encourage me to view your Faith or your website with respect.

Ironically it encourages me to take this Film about the Expelling of Intelligent Design as fact with regards to the level of expressed animosity at Intelligent Design out there. And it is scary to have an Admin try and "come down" on the subject (per a Film about the subject).

You can't expect positive results by openly judging someone with "it's impossible to discuss with you" and then asking them to go watch documentaries that support your position. You've set yourself up to fail from the beginning. Just ask them to watch documentaries and keep open the lines for debate.

And your statement "Intelligent Design = Creationism = Religion = your own 2+2 = 4 thinking process" is just wrong. It would take quite the communication dialogue to show you how it's wrong...so for now I'll just say...it's wrong (not true, not accurate).

Interesting that when I pointed out some simple logic about agnosticism vs the Atheist Faith not only does no one attempt to refute me but a TDF Admin comes on and tries to "expel" readers from attempting to refute me as well.

If I my logic is off, people could have pointed out how it was off. But Vlatko you did not attempt to correct my logic and instead you argue that people should Not try to correct my logic either.

That kind of behaviour reminds me of the behaviour of repressive regimes when confronted with opposition.

If that is Not how you want to appear, please consider letting go of pre-judgements and instead embracing hope and faith on your ability to persuade.

I will watch those documentaries. It will take some time (I still have to watch what Epicurus suggested). After I have I expect to be able to discuss them. And without being prejudged or repressed when I try to discuss them.

over the edge

loyell13
could you please explain what you mean by " atheist faith" atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods nothing more how can that be considered a faith? also do you believe in a god?

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

There is no logical person who says with absolute certainty that there is no external agent. most atheists say they have no reason to assume there is.

also just positing an external agent leaves us with questions like, how did that agent go against the second law of thermodynamics? it still leaves us with an infinite regress.

it leaves more questions without even being sure the assumption is correct. it is more honest to say you dont know.

one is either an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist (or agnostic deist/pantheist etc), and to me agnostic atheist is the most intellectually honest.

robertallen1

Your first paragraph is well put and has been stressed time and time again, especially by Dr. Dawkins. The problem is that so many people read or listen selectively--and sometimes not even that. As god created man in his own image, theists created atheists in theirs.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

i dont think you read everything i put there....let me try again, and i guess just the important part.

"our everyday conceptions of "order" and "disorder" do not really apply to the physical quantity called "entropy". Indeed, the entropy of the early universe was extremely low. This makes sense if one remembers that, in the very early stages of the universe, the distribution of matter and energy was very, very ordered, as demonstrated by the uniformity of the CMBR. As such, one could characterize the entire distribution of matter and energy in the universe with a single number (the temperature) to a very good approximation. Compare that to the universe we see now, filled with complicated, disorderly distributions of galaxies, stars and gas. The amount of entropy in these objects is enormous (recall our earlier discussion about the lack of coherent orbits for stars in elliptical galaxies and galaxies in galaxy clusters). Hence, the idea that the entropy of the universe has somehow decreased in violation of the second law of thermodynamics is largely nonsensical."

Guest

Dear Robert, don't you think it's about time you get an appropriate avatar?
I never liked the grey man with the cap on the head, it really doesn't suit you well. I always thought it looked like an unused safe.
May i suggest perhaps the cover of a book, or a scientific logo design, or the photo of an old smart guy like Epirurus uses....or a young one which would be the opposite duality.
az

robertallen1

I didn't choose it; I never noticed it and quite frankly, I don't care, but thanks for your concern.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

@over the edge There are three Faiths. The Deists Faith, the Theist Faith and the Atheist Faith. I don't mean organized religion. I mean actual Faith in what one believes in. On matters of how the Universe began and if it required a God Agent and how that God Agent might affect/interact-with the universe and humans, because we humans are still so finite in our knowledge, comprehension and experiences, any position more than an attitude of "I don't know" is really just our own personal Faith in Deism or Theism or Atheism. Choosing what Not to believe in (Classical Atheism) is no different than choosing what To believe in (Classical Deism or Classical Theism). Any of the three positions at its core are really just personal Faith in ones belief.

Agnosticism on the other hand is not a Faith. Agnosticism is the humble admission that one does not know.

To answer your question about if I believe in God, currently my personal Faith is in Deism and Theism. I've also done my research and currently I do not believe in Atheism (and thus do not have Faith in it).

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6LT4FIUONEDY7JKUSKTKE57T7Q loyell13

@Epicurus Now we're talking. It really does boil down to your statement "to me." That statement is one of belief. I'm glad you have it. It's not my belief. But it is a belief. And so the argument of Atheism vs Theism/Deism really boils down to arguments between personal beliefs. I like the honesty.

As for your Infinite Regress idea...no it does not need to leave us with an infinite regress. We're not asking how God (external agent) began. We're asking how it is possible that, given the 2nd law of Thermodynamics, the Universe could have created itself. Our universe seems a closed system. If it is then it requires an external agent. I can eliminate infinite regress by postulating that the External Agent does not need to be under the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. And that the External Agent doesn't need to be finite or need to have had a beginning. Yes I don't have evidence for this. But again, until we have evidence about the External Agent like we do about the Big Bang, we don't need to ask these "How'd the External Agent..." questions like we do about our Universe.

And it's not that farfetched. Remember that the proposed idea for how our planet has...by chance alone...overcome the ASTRONOMICAL odds for complex life to exist...by chance alone (because the default is that there was an external agent)...is the idea that there are infinite universes. Infinite Universes is pretty much the same as infinite regress. And remember that there's no evidence for these infinite universes (it's just a theory to explain the ASTRONOMICAL odds given no External Agent).

I argue that there does not need to be infinite regress as the External Agent could have existed forever and with no beginning and without entropy. My theory actually removes the need for infinite regress. Infinite Universes actually keeps something very similar to Infinite regress. I'm only proposing one infinite being. Multiple Universes is proposing that there are an infinite amount of universes. Neither of these theories have any evidence. They're just theories. I'd argue that Occam's Razor would vote for my One Infinite Being over the idea of an Infinite Amount Of Universes.

Guest

I thought i'd offer an excerpt:
"Science itself is a new species of inquiry, one which has absolutely transformed the landscape of our planet but whose long-haul survivability is yet to be proven. So far, science is known to exist only by human thought. If humanity should exterminate itself via science, will science pass away as well or will it create our successors in the process of extermination?"

i must add....After us what would be left other than the inexistense or existense of the God we never knew?
az

Guest

Perhaps we must exist in order for God to exist?If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him -Francois-Marie Arouet
Perhaps one day, the computers of the far (or near) future will say: If human beings didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them! XD
But...that would probably be an entirely different thing, as far as I can tell.

On an interesting side-note, reinventing humans is precisely what some think those strong (very strong) A.I. machines will do. Everyone who ever lived will be resurrected as a simulation. Personally, if it had happened tonight, I would probably have headed over to your house for a cup of coffee, and then over to Mark Twain's place to listen to him declaim on what a bunch of bullsh*t everything is.
(I'm in a funny mood tonight, too.)

oddsrhuge

This discussion, argument or agreement to disagree, (depending upon which side you wish to defend) Is simply never going to be finished in this lifetime.

You can tell Christians that as world religions go, their's is a relatively new upstart and you will be told NO...the entire planet is only a few thousand years old. (anything that appears to be older, apparently, was placed on Earth by a GOD to test or fool us.) At one time, I would have argued till I was hoarse. I no longer have any inclination to declare my own thoughts or opinions as any better or worse than anyone else's, where Faith and Religion are concerned.

What I would really like to see from all of us (I've beaten this one to death, I know, so I apologize for repeating it yet again), is the ability and tolerance to accept that everybody has the the right to follow any belief or lack thereof. Here I will place a proviso: As long as it doesn't hurt another person's being or property.

How does the fact that I believe in the "Frog of Alturi" effect your own belief in Jesus, or Mohammed or anyone or anything else? Most people who follow a specific faith (at least in my experience) are much more inclined to tell a confessed atheist; "you are going to hell" or "you are wrong". Often they will quote passages to highlight their point. The problem I have always had is that the Bible (Christian) is filled with stories... Theologians, have explained that much of the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. But parts can be taken this way if it helps an argument...For me, this is far too subjective and convenient. This book still seems to be the only book not subject to critical analysis by peers or detractors.

How does my non or altered belief, effect you as a pious person following your own path? Do not most "accepted" (theres a great word where religion is concerned) faiths, embrace tolerance, acceptance and help for your fellow man/woman, regardless of how far down he/she may have fallen? Even if the very book doesn't actually reveal this...it has become what people believe it teaches.

There are comments on here about Agnosticism. This is where I would have placed myself at one point. Now I simply just don't believe in outside forces effecting my destiny.

To me, blaming or thanking a supernatural being for your own effort is ridiculous and a complete cop out.

If you want to discuss what I have written here, please do. However, I rarely respond to rants or poorly researched points. This includes people who misquote the Bible to serve their own ends...I may not agree with most of it...but, HAVE actually read it more than once.

oddsrhuge

@ az

I read this, I mean how could I not keep reading, when the article starts with:

"After 127 years of heavily subsidized effort by scientists all over the world to create even the most basic rudiments of life, they are still batting an embarrassing zero."

I guess all the Churches and Synagogues had to rely on lesser funding to make their point a fact. Why do you need any money to make a point, when you have a book the reveals the "truth" for every generation to come?

robertallen1

You have the right to believe what you want. Just keep religion out of the public places, especially the schools, and especially out of the science classes.

robertallen1

How do you know it's the "truth?" How do you even know this documentary is the truth (which you'll find it's not upon further research)?

Guest

I wish i didn't go to sleep last night, i could have kept this going and going....but here i am 7am, still alive...i know i just pinched myself.
az

Guest

I thought you would especially like that first sentence...and then suddenly you were gone, lol. Thought maybe I'd spilled some coffee on you or something! :)

Guest

Did you read the text from the link...I am not done yet...kept the rest for later. I am about to go have a coffee in town...great little place called Oso Negro (means black bear), packed with people needing to wake up with a good strong brew.
later
az

Guest

I'll give it a read right now.

edit- Good God, not all that quickly, I won't! (magnIFIER, please.) That's not an article, that's a novella.

Guest

Hi Az, thanks for making Pysmythe wait for me, Probably daft but I'm a bit fond of you guys. Your link looks like a good find :)

Guest

You're young....you should still have a good vision. Copy the text in a word doc and then make it bigger...not sure if this would work, just an idea. I managed to read it but as i said, had to stop and go to sleep...my glasses were getting sweaty.
az

Guest

Is it me or are you here a lot more than you used to. I do notice every comment you scatter since i have realized you are a woman. Not that this is the reason but it may have opened my eyes to your inputs.
Cute avatar...sort of look like mine but different.
az

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

i think if you look at the words you will see that agnosticism comes from the greek words a and gnosis which mean without and knowledge respectively.

to claim to be JUST an agnostic isnt enough. we are all agnostic truthfully since we are without absolute knowledge one way or the other.

but when it comes to how you live your life or what you believe based on that lack of knowledge one is either an atheist (meaning they dont believe there is a god usually because there is no evidence to support one), a theist, a deist, a pantheist, an animist etc. but they are all agnostic.

if you could point out a single atheist who says they know for sure there is no agent i would like to see that. rather they dont assume there is one because there is insufficient evidence to do so.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

but what does one base this belief on?

what do you base the belief that there is intelligent aware agent?

i base my belief that there isnt for the same reason i dont believe in the hindu gods. there just isnt sufficient evidence.

our universe seems a closed system but we dont know that it is, and even if it is, there is sufficient energy in it initially to produce what looks to us like order, but if you remember what i said earlier:

"in the very early stages of the universe, the distribution of matter and energy was very, very ordered, as demonstrated by the uniformity of the CMBR. As such, one could characterize the entire distribution of matter and energy in the universe with a single number (the temperature) to a very good approximation. Compare that to the universe we see now, filled with complicated, disorderly distributions of galaxies, stars and gas. The amount of entropy in these objects is enormous (recall our earlier discussion about the lack of coherent orbits for stars in elliptical galaxies and galaxies in galaxy clusters)."

if you look at the CMBR it would appear that our universe has gone from order to disorder. there are pockets of area where order is happening (us) but it is extremely brief and will fade as the sun goes through entropy.

you can not just posit a being that doesnt obey laws of physics because it cleans up your model. thats like saying "magic" and wiping your hands.

the fact that a universe exists and energy exists already makes the model of infinite universes better than that of an all powerful eternal entity.

occams razor would dismiss your being claim and allow the universe one based on my prior paragraph.

Guest

My sister is having some problems. Epilepsy, Aspergers and depression, some other stuff too. I've rearranged my work so I can be available to her more often which means I'm home more for at least the next few weeks. I kind of had to give up having a proper job (when our Mum died) because of it all and am now a self employed cleaner. Its OK but I come here to relax. Being the older by 12 years makes me the spare Mum! She's worth every second. Hadn't noticed the similarity I just liked her round face, its a bit like mine :)
That sounds a bit miserable, sorry. Its not really :)

Guest

It doesn't sound miserable. Helping family members is something we can cherish as long as we live if they don't OR as long as they live if we don't.
The similarities is in the 2 ears and the 2 fingers.
az

Guest

Maybe your rubbing off on me ;)

Guest

You can just hold down Ctrl and tap the + to make things larger on the screen, too. (I discovered this entirely by accident one day.) Then the key immediately left will return it to normal size with an equal number of taps.

Just woke up from a nap, but beforehand managed to finish exactly half of it. Rather a complicated read (especially to begin with) for one as unschooled in the particulars as I am, so I took it slow and bored in on it with what little Superman powers of concentration I've got left these days, what with all this kryptonite lying around.