Hi all. As I said in a meet and greet post, I'm newly out of the closet as a spanko. I first brought the subject up with my husband a couple of months ago and we've engaged in some playful spanking during lovemaking since (wheee!).

When I told him about this desire of mine he was surprised but not shocked or appalled (phew!). He's not naturally inclined to spank, but he rather likes to arouse me so he's willing.

One question--are we hardwired this way? Or can one come to be a spanker, as it were? Does anyone have a partner who came to be passionate about spanking without starting out that way?

For me, it's purely erotic. But I'd like to gradually introduce him to the idea of an OTK spanking as foreplay or just in and of itself erotic fun.

Any general advice on the situation would be most welcome. I thought I'd show him this site as well as My Bottom Smarts--I love the tutorials there and they seem like they'd help him understand what's going on for me.

Tutorials are a great start. I emailed a few of my favorites to my hubby when we started out about 6 months ago. He is still in a learning stage but it is developing nicely. Unfortunately, he does not see it as erotic so this a bit of a dimemna for me. If yours does, you are one lucky lady!A woman`s heart may be filled with an ocean of secrets but mine have all been released and I have a sore bottom to prove it!

Rosebud, I am married to a partner who came to love the art of spanking I brought up the subject, showed him various websites, and printed out good articles/stories for him to read. It was erotic at the beginning, but eventually we branched out to goodgirl spankings, badgirl spankings, and him spanking me "just because he can"....lol... Good luck!"Thought I WAS being a good girl...really I did!"

I have turned ALL my vanillia men into spankers ... I have not met a man who eventually diod not love to redden my rear ..and infact I turned my hubby into a erotic spanker earlier in our relationship...but D/d a couple of years later .. Just enjoy what you get ..thats the fun of this He asked what I needed , timidly gave it at first, now he just knows.

Blistering_blonde, you're lucky that you got your vanilla guys to spank, but not everyone is that lucky. I've met several men who were absolutely against the idea of "hitting" a woman no matter what the reason. They just couldn't get over their upbringing about how a gentleman treats a lady. They were wonderful men, but not kinky that way.

Rosebud, it sounds like you're off to a great start and I applaud you for your courage to come out to your husband. Good for you!

There are some great tutorials and if you search around the web, you'll find many articles on the subject. Since you're into erotic spankings and your husband is concerned with your pleasure, it sounds like you have a good chance of making this work for you both.

Finding and printing anything you find might help him understand what you're looking for. You might also consider writing up a scenario with you two as the leading characters. Fashion it to your own tastes so he can start understanding what exactly you have in mind. Also, be sure and include how that type of spanking would make you feel and how you plan to show your appreciation. It could lead to something special.

I am not convinced that one can get a true vanilla to really turn on the concept. I am not disagreeing with your statement BB, but I think there were latent feelings with your men that just finally came out. There are certain activities that I WILL NOT do except manybe on occasion to please someone I care for. I would never suddenly make a complete turn around on something I am not into. As Bethie stated there are some men who have a solid, frim belief that it is wrong to strike a women in any form. I would not expect him to go against his ethics. Every fetish is not for every person. "Golden showers" is a turn on for many people, but I can never see myself getting into it. Same thing goes for mushrooms, I have never liked them and have tried every variety people have offered me, I am pretty sure I will not suddenly start to crave them. Queen of Innocence

Well my 3 times golden rule ..worked on changing them all . I NEVER said every man in the world loved it ..but the ones I met and dated did. 1st time ...you try it ..ackward and all . 2nd time you know what is expected .. feel less clumsy ..and enjoy it more .as you know what is happening 3rd you sit down after and decide ..should this continue ..or do we trash it . thats our bedroom rule.. 3x try ITS also my personal experience .. BUT I never said that they all did D/d either ...only a few did that. It may not of been the spanking they enjoyed ..but rather my reactions. He asked what I needed , timidly gave it at first, now he just knows.

I like the idea of printing stuff out to leave for him to read. Also writing something myself--but maybe a little further down the line.

I've only recently found stuff on the internet that speaks to MY kind of spanking (including this board)--and that's been a huge relief for me too.

One of the most important things I've already learned is the need to be patient and to communicate. This is going to be complicated for him--unlike me, he hasn't been thinking about it his whole life and it's still complicated for me--and just because he doesn't "get it" right away doesn't mean it won't work at least to some extent later. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

It's really good to hear that some non-spankos can get to like spanking. I think it does help that it's an erotic thing for me. Spanking per se may not turn him on, but me being aroused does.

I'm overjoyed that I came out and I attribute it to menopause. I just figured, if not now, when??

Thanks again! And if anyone has found any particular webite or article to be helpful for this kind of situation, please let me know.

You're a lucky girl Rose - Your husband is turned on by your being turned on! That is definitely going to be a plus as you learn how to define what it IS that you want! Patience is the big thing. Too much too fast will overload him and that's not good. Have fun!Some day you'll spank me... er thank me for this!

Rosebud, i believe I'm hardwired this way and that's just the way I am. spankings are erotic and really turn me on, Hubby likes that, he was not a spanker per say but willing to try something new and now he takes me by my arm and puts me over his knee and give me a rather "good one ".

I don't ask why am I this way or why me any more, I just enjoy, good luck my name says it all

My husband wasn't into much kink of anykind He was loving and caring but basically inexperienced. I believe these sort of things build and if you have good enough foundations well.. . Initially he just didn't get it, Like you Rosebud the thing that he did get was my reaction and how much it turned me on . The more turned on I am the more turned on he is and the whole thing sort of spirals. He has always been open minded and wants whats best for me even if initially he doesn't have the same feelings about it. Now he is genuinely turned on and yes passionate about by the thoughts of and action of spanking me as well as from my reactions. We are amazed at how different we both are just 6 months into spanking, can't wait for the next 6!. There is still a gap in our erotic desires but but with a lot of love, talking and an awful lot of D O I N G it's narrowing all the time.

(Message edited by Mistydawn on July 17, 2006)-------------------------------------------- MistyDawn -------------------------------------------- Learning to love and loving to learn

Yeah my boyfriend is neither turned off or on by spanking me but he is doing it to turn me on. I wasn't sure how he would ease into it but this past week he blew me away. He slipped into total Dom mode, gave me rules, and gave me a discipline spanking. But it's all for me cuz he knows that's what I want. With us since it's for me the punishments can be stopped at any point but if I accept it then he gets to decide the severity, implement, ect. And of course I get playful spankings as well. But yes Kudos to your hubby for trying this out with you and hopefully it can grow from there. Perhaps in time our men will come to love it as much as we do. Good luck Rosebud!!

Rosebud,after a twelve year,marraige I admited to him I was a spanko,it forced a seperaton,because he called my internet friends, everything from freaks to,can't mention,It was the same as calling me a freak,......,people I had related for he first time in my life,......

I am with Fanny on this one. I too am not convinced that one can get a true vanilla to really turn on the concept. And I agree that ‘Spanking per se may not turn your partner on but arousing you may’. But it is a lot more satisfying if you partner genuinely enjoys it. Being hard-wired is something that your partner may not at first immediately realise but something she or he may grow into. There again I have had many disappointments in this respect as well. Nick

This whole communication thing actually works quite well! We've been incorporating a bit more spanking into lovemaking, although not much of that is happening because the house is full of kids. A wooden spoon is pretty quiet but I'm not!

But this morning I wrote my husband a long email with a description of what I would like to have happen--an long, erotic OTK spanking with various implements prior to lovemaking. He found the idea quite attractive--and the house will be empty on Friday!

I may have mentioned--I showed him the tutorials on My Bottom Smarts and he found those quite helpful in understanding different kinds of spanking, desires for spanking, and so on. I didn't show him this site--I want to keep it for me!

I think some people have an innate opposition to spanking due to their childhood. My current, Bill, had a very abusive father who was abusive to his mother as well. As such, he's not inclined to spank. I also had a previous ex whose father was horribly abusive to him. This ex found out about my spanking fetish by snooping (I hadn't told him yet) and FREAKED OUT. Told me he couldn't be the person hitting, etc... Then he wanted to try, but ended up freaking out on me emotionally and leaving me in tears every time.

I think hardwired means that whoever or whatever cannot be changed.Originally, the term was used to describe functionality that was built into the circuitry (i.e., the wires) of a device. By extension, anything that is not modifiable, especially in the sense of customizable to one's particular needs or tastes My wife was not a spanker,but I was(and still am)a spankee.Over time she has compromised with me as she knows it turns me on and therefore will spank me most times I want/need.

By hardwired, I meant someone who is just naturally a spanko. I am and my husband's not. Had I not brought up the subject, it never would have occurred to him. He doesn't object and has been quite willing to make it part of our lovemaking because of what it does to me.

Friday was our first OTK spanking, the one I've been dreaming of for a couple of decades. It made me very, very happy.

I think this would be harder for him if I were into role playing or discipline but I'm not. We've become more open about what we find erotic in our advanced middle age and so it became easier for me to bring up spanking. It also helped to write him letters about it because I found it so hard to talk about. I told him about how spanking makes me feel and what I did and didn't want--once he knew more about my particular version of the kink, he became much more comfortable with it. And kind of excited too!

My hubby would not have spanked me unless I brought up the subject ---- and that was 4 years ago! I am a natural spanko, and like you, Rosebud, we are middle aged (although I don't like labeling - I think you are as young as you feel). I agree with you - being together for so long made it a lot easier - Once I opened up and told him what I enjoyed, he was more then willing to spank (the first few times there was a bit of hesitancy on his part - I think that is from being brought up with the concept of men do not hit women).... But once he saw how it made me feel - well, the rest is history It does take lots of communication, trust, and honestly. Congrats on your first OTK I still remember mine......*grin*"Do I have to be good ALL the time?"

my ex was a lovely guy and spanked me, but in 3 and a half years he never got to enjoy it-he liked the fact that it made me horny, but was freaked out by any roleplaying or discipline. i really tried to make it work for him, but he just didn't seem to have a 'toppy' attitude at all, and although i enjoyed the spankings i felt bad that he was just doing it to humour me.

i really feel that people are hardwired like this...i'm only 19, and i was never smacked as a child, but i always had daydreams about corporal punishment and although they were never sexual, i realise that i have always had a craving to be helpless and spanked...

my new boyfriend was a little shocked when i first brought it up, but has become very keen on my reactions to spanking and my subby behaviour-i think he enjoys spanking in itself now, not just as a means to an end (happy, horny girlfriend)

that said, in the future i would love to go out with a man who was a real dom, much more experienced than me, who would push my limits...but i'll save that for when i'm older!

I have been reading your posts for quite some time and finally feel I may have something to contribute. I've been a spanko all my life I think and have searched the planet for 40 years looking for the man who could take me in hand without turning my life into a freak show. Most men I've been with either got too carried away and abusive or not into it at all. No one really had the art of it. I had even given up on my current boyfriend (I use the term loosly because he doesn't like to be called that even though we've lived together almost a year now). He said from the beginning he "wasn't into that freak shit." and has called me sick for liking being spanked on several occaisions. Even though he swatted me playfully during sex about the third time we were together and I protested and he kept doing it but then didn't do it again for 6 months. But I think he might be coming around. He gave me my first real spanking in January when I was particularly petulant about his being late for dinner... he was 3 hours late, I was packing his bags... My eyes got glassy, I started breathing heavy and drooling and he said, "I didn't know it was like that." He's a natural dominant and hates it when I backtalk him or anything, though he's too much in control of himself to show it much, he's more apt to disappear. So a few weeks later when I noticed I made his blood pressure rise by not sitting down to the table when he asked, I left him a note and a paddle and asked him to spank me for real for my disobedience so I wouldn't forget and because I really wanted to be a good woman and needed his help. He gave me a good spanking and I looked up at him and his eyes were glittering and I think He was drooling a little. He gave me a few more swats, threw down the paddle and said "That's enough." That was my last spanking for 6 months because I bruised and he said he wasn't into that freak shit. I tried bratting which definately backfired and then settled into my disappointment and read up on the subject, wondering if in fact I was a little sick. One particularly helpful missive was from a dom saying it was a pain in the ass to have to discipline someone all the time and that a truly submissive woman would not need spanked too often. He also suggested that the more submissive one became the better the odds that the dom would come to surface. So I did my best. One of the hardest things was to lose weight when he said I was getting heavy. And expressing my displeasure without being bitchy is another art I am constantly perfecting. Of late he's begun spanking me during sex with a few commands like "suck it right" or "Get up here where you belong." And I find the more compliant and rewarding I am , the better the spanking gets and the more he growls and pets me. He's got a very effective manner of spacing the swats until he gets just the right angle which is no easy feat since I'm generally bobbing and weaving around at the time. I'm trying to screw up my courage to write him another letter soon asking for a discipline spanking again and reading "Loving Domestic Discipline" which I hope he takes an interest in. In the meantime, I completely subbmissive. I make his breakfast and wash his clothes and do anything he asks with a pleasant smile on my face and keep our house really clean even though that means I get up at 5 a.m. and don't get to bed until about midnight and I give him complete body massages almost every night and never initiate sex and stopped insisting on my own orgasm. It seems to be working. My spankings are getting better and more frequent. This is how it's worked for me. Hope it helps. I think the main thing is to be patient and not try to 'top from the bottom' and allow their natural instincts to take over. The hardest part is being submissive outside the bedroom and I fear taking it to far lest he cheat and destroy our relationship. I find I can give my all to one man, but only if I feel he is truly my man and mine alone. I guess I'm learning "Be careful what you wish for" because bringing out the demon, is bringing out all that entails from him and me and I have to constantly monitor my feelings to be true to myself and not sabotage our relationship.

Just a note on a dom saying "it's a pain in the ass to have to discipline someone all the time", I think that's only true for some. I know of at least one who get off on disciplining, the more frequently the better. Granted, they want "off" days, but still, those men do exist.

Kitten, I appreciate your honesty and openness. We all do what we can to enjoy this lifestyle, but please don't loose yourself in the process. Denying yourself everything from sleep to orgasm is only going to leave you frustrated and resentful. Queen of Innocence

Rosebud, First, I think Tammynx makes an excellent point. There is something taught or instinctual in certian man that will not permit certian things. I have done all manner of things over the years, but nothing that would cause anything like permenant injury or require some one to need any form of medical attention, beyond a little bit of lotion. Who is to say whose line is where? We all should walk away when our own instinct tells us to. On the other hand, I didn't know or expect to find the pleasure in spanking that I did the first time it was presented to me. I was taken a place I hadn't, at least overtly, thought of and I can picture her bottom now. Without details, I have found myself in both places I have loved and places I have walked from. Trust yourself to go forward. He will or won't follow. Best of luck. Prof top.

I'd like to throw in my two cents here about dominants even though it's not addressing Rosebud's situation. Also, I'm talking from my own experiences since I've been doing this quite awhile and it's for all, even if I mention Kitten or anyone else. (An aside to Kitten: I'm glad you've joined us so don't take my remarks about your situation as a criticism so much as concern for you.)

I worry about Kitten's remark about how her live-in partner doesn't like being called her boyfriend, how he refers to spanking as that "freak shit" as well as her fear she will take it too far and he will cheat. I'm afraid the foundation of their relationship is a bit weak and that's worrisome for trying to build a dom/sub committment from. (Kitten, I'd appreciate any feedback from you about this since I know we can't know all about your relationship from just one post.)

Submission isn't about denying yourself anything. It's about complementing the dominance of your partner. You can't have dominance without submission but that doesn't mean you have to become a doormat or twist yourself up in a pretzel to lift him up into his dominant role. He will either take on that responsibility or he won't.

A dom cares for his sub in many ways and it's not just about spanking. Dan would never let me stay up until midnight cleaning and then only sleep five hours. Maybe that's all the sleep Kitten needs, but that wouldn't work for me. Dan wouldn't let it happen. He's more concerned about my well-being than I am. If I tried that, he'd toss me into bed himself and give me a spanking I wouldn't completely enjoy. Then he'd cuddle me and put me right to sleep. And in my experiencess, that's how a dom is supposed to be.

I'm cherished and put up on a pedestal by my dom. He sees it as his duty/pleasure to care for me, watch out for me, and he makes darn sure I'm happy. I do the same for him but from the sub's perspective. My submission is in proportion to his dominance. I don't think being more submissive makes him more dominant so much as it cues his dominant nature to react. That's because he's a true dominant and comfortable in his role with me. Not all men can be that way, but some men can kind of be that way. You've gotta work with what you've got and make some concessions. That's what all relationships are about anyway.

Every couple is going to find their own way. But whatever way you find, make sure you stay true to yourself. Don't debase yourself hoping you can mold him into a dom. It doesn't work that way. You need to communicate your needs to him directly. Acting like a doormat will only get you walked all over. That's not being a submissive and no real dom will let you do that. (Unless that's the kind of games you like playing, but that's a whole other thread.)

Also, doms want what's best for their subs. That means in every part of your life. Doms want you to be your best and encourage you to do so. The limits they give will be so you don't harm yourself. There are a lot of control freaks out there masquerading as doms so watch out for them. They'll limit your contacts while they gather up all the subs they can.

Also, beware of the ones who are in relationships with partners who don't know what they're doing on the side. Married people who cheat on their spouses have been saying the same lines since the beginning of time and being kinky doesn't excuse their behavior; a cheat is a cheat, bottom line.

Those types are the ones who don't care about you so much as they care about themselves. Those aren't doms, they're fakes who are using the aspects of this lifestyle to get their own jollies.

It's not easy when you're searching for something you've always wanted to the core of your being and you find someone who talks a good story, says all the right things, or acts a certain way. You want to believe you finally have what you've been looking for. But if you have to degrade yourself to make him happy, then you've got the wrong guy. If you ever feel ashamed or scared, you need to look hard at your relationship and decide what's right for you.

Sorry this post is so long, but I've been getting alot of questions about this subject and I wanted to address them here while we were on this topic.

Bethie I'm glad for all that you said but really glad about the part on married Doms. It is a bad thing when you get involved with a married man/woman. Cheating is cheating. Even if it is just spanking its still cheating.

Also...My husband takes care of me. Always has, he protects me and loves me above everything in our lives. I don't think I mentioned that before and wanted to say it because its important.

Great post Bethie,and all so true, a cheater will say anything just to have the affair.and I was just crushed the day I learned my ex was cheating on me and he really didn't care.

My Hubby is not what I would call a Dom but he is more than willing to see that I get a spanking when I need on. and nothing like falling off to sleep in the arms of my loving protector.my name says it all

Thanks for addressing my concerns Bethie. I think you are right-on about the lack of committment being the basis of my discontent. Even though I try to put a good spin on it, I guess the longing was apparent between the lines. I do think he's selfish and sometimes I am very afraid and ashamed and that does get me off and twists me in a pretzel in more ways than I ever thought possible. On the one hand, he's hard-working, pays the bills and generally takes care of me in those areas. But he's very rhoughtless when it comes to the anxiety I feel when he's out drinking with his buddies, how sad I feel because he doesn't take me out and the general absense of loving words and gestures. But he's the only man I've been with who wasn't abusive, and by that I mean he hasn'[t struck me in anger , put me in the hospital or had the cops called to our house. I know by some, his lack of empathy is seen as a form of abuse but I try not to be as dramatic as all that. For the record, he's never spanked me to orgasm and I would much prefer orgasm to almost anything else in the world, but he says he's too tired to put in the effort most days. He does exhaustive physical labor and I work till late at night so by the time I come to bed about all he has the strength for is me giving him oral and maybe a few light slaps on the ass to make sure I'm doing it right and maybe get a little pleasure from it myself. He may think I get off on it, but it's kind of like a little appitizer to me when I'm hungry for a full course meal. Nut if I don't cater to him, I'm afraid he will find someone who will. I honestly can't sleep if I don't get him off every night and worry about it the whole next day, so it's easier on me in the long run to just give in. Maybe I'm in the wrong place. Maybe I'm just a masochist. Maybe this relationship is doomed to fail like all my others. I do miss being loved in the traditional sense and keep thinking he'll come around. He seems to kinda say no to everything, but if I drop it and forget about it, a few months pass and then he comes up with it like it's his idea or something. I hope so. Last night it started thundering and raining real hard and he commented on it. I said: "Yeah, it makes me feel like making love... I can't remember the last time we made love." I heard him suck in his breath and hold it, so I decided to let him off the hook. I laughed and said. "I can't remember the last time we were both not so tired that we could do the whole thing, you know , tender, kissy-face, making love and saying sweet things." He said: "Well it sure isn't going to be tonight, I'm so tired, etc. " I said I was too and rolled over to sleep, but he asked me to rub his legs and his feet and his arms and his hands and his chest. I groaned and said I'd rub his feet if I could do it laying on my side and he'd rub my back while I did it. But instead, he smacked me on the ass and told me to rub his damn feet. He laughed and I laughed and I ended up giving him the full-body massage and blow job, which of course left me without orgasm and unable to sleep for hours and my heart ached, but I felt content at the same time knowing I had a satisfied man by my side ... But I worry of this will be enough and was hanging on to my hope that my submissiveness would bring out the loving dom in him, but maybe you are right and I am wrong. I know you are right about my utter fatigue and frustration.

Bethie, you are my new role model. (haha) As a matter-of-fact i stumbled across your blog one day while net surfing. (thats how i found the den) and read your post , and was hooked from that day on. You always seem so knowledgeable and wise about any subject that comes up. You should teach a beginners class on-line at the den! :-)Once a princess always a princess

Seems I am in the opposite situation as the husband that needs to be spanked. My spouse thinks I am wierd, but asked that we go slow and move at her pace and she assured me that we will develop into what we were meant to be. I am not exactly sure what she meant by that, but will wait and see.

Thanks for the feedback! But right now I'm very concerned with Kitten's situation. I don't want anyone reading this thread to get the wrong idea about submission in this lifestyle.

Kitten, from your other post in the Twist Area and this one, I'm more concerned for you than before. You're exhausted, frustrated, and your heart is aching. That's not good in any relationship. Please don't use the aspects of this lifestyle to excuse what's going on in your relationship. Abuse isn't just about beating someone up physically, it's about beating up their spirit. I'm afraid that's what's happening to you.

He doesn't take you out, say nice things to you, or make love to you. You feel neglected, sad, and ashamed. He goes out drinking with his friends and doesn't take you out. He's only concerned with his own satisfaction. I'm sorry, but this sounds like verbal abuse to me. I'm just afraid it's a matter of time before it becomes worse.

If this were an agreed TPE (total power exchange) relationship that had been negotiated and agreed upon before you entered into this behavior, some of what you call submissive behavior would be expected, but this isn't what you have.

You're doing this with your goals in mind and I'm afraid he's not going to get with the program. You've got to talk to someone about this type of relationship and get their total agreement before you jump into it, not just act out your side of it and hope he gets into the spirit of things eventually. It doesn't work that way.

Please be careful! If you're in over your head, there are ways to get help and we'll be happy to help you with that.

Prissieti, I'm glad you've joined us here! I've got some years of experience in this lifestyle (I'll try not to age myself by saying how many) and I was mentored by some awesome and sensible kinksters. Heck, I'm still learning as I go along in this lifestyle. I'm thankful for all that they've taught me over the years and I do what I can to pass that knowledge along. I'm not sure the spanko world is ready for a class from me though. I'm extra kinky with lots of added spices, not just your average everyday spanko.

Kzoo, I'm glad you've been able to talk with your wife about your desires, it's not always easy to bring this subject up with your partner in any situation. In the past, I've been there myself with a non-spanko partner so I understand.

Maybe your wife meant if you proceed at her pace then she could feel her way along to a place that she's comfortable with your kink. You've at least got a place to start with her. Be patient, encourage her when she makes progress, don't try to force the issue by witholding affection, and just stay positive.

It's amazing what some praise, compliments, and doing something special for that other person can accomplish. After all, they're trying to make you happy so it's only fair that you do things to make sure their efforts are recognized and appreciated. Good luck!

Kitten try making love in the morning when you,re both refreshed and have your batteries recharged.From the way you describe this guy I doubt it,ll work but it,s a good alternative to trying it when you,re both dead tired.

hi Kitten....seems there are a lot of folks here that are VERY concerned about you.

I can't add anything else to what Bethie said - she is giving you some excellent advice. Please, please, be careful....and do read that article by Gloria Brame.

Buenaventura...the morning love making sounds like such a great idea, but you are right - from the description of this man, I don't think changing the time of day will change his attitude towards Kitten.

Kitten....you say you are not physically abused? "he smacked me on the ass and told me to rub his damn feet."...Honey, THAT is abuse. Your situation is alarming to say the least.

Please keep us informed of your situation - get help, and know that we are all pulling for you. You deserve only the best in life (remember that!)"Do I have to be good ALL the time?"

Thanks for your concern Bethie. I've been trying to unravel my twisted heartstrings for decades, had all the best therapy money can buy and still seeking to know myself better and love more fully. If it makes you feel any better, ole kitten got her claws out last night... First I went on strike and didn't clean the house yesterday. When my daughter started whining about now we weren't arranging our work schedules so she could go to a football game, I went off, knowing she would relay my message to him at dinner which was: I'm tired of being everyone's whipping post. Do your own damn laundry, wash your own damn dishes and if they don't get done don't come crying to me because I just don't give a damn anymore! I forgot to tell her I was closing at work and I guess it was unexpected when I was 30 minutes late coming home and I had to take this homeless woamn home and had promised he some shampoo I had forgotten at the house so I stopped in to get it on the way to where she was staying and was going to tell the cowboy where I was going but he was feigning sleep so I poked my head in the door and darted out. I got back in less than an hour and started cleaning the kitchen and drinking. I was determined to get the house clean and pass out on the couch because I was sick and tired of his pretending to be asleep just so I would have to do all the massaging and stuff because he was too 'tired' to do anything. And my plan would have gone without a hitch if I hadn't got so dang lonely on the couch, so I said to myself I'd just go to bed and cuddle up against him but the s.o.b. started growling at me so I got up and got dressed and headed out the door. To my surprise he followed me and ordered me to come back. It was a rare show of emotion on his part, even bringing up a guy he is apparently jealous of which is a strange turn of the tables because he usuallly gives me hell for being jealous and seems to go out of his way to bait me. I was touched to find he was himan afterall, so I came back and tried the cuddle thing again and hang it all he started griping again! So I got up again and got dressed and headed out the door again. He asked where I was going and I said: "I'm NOT going to lonely in my own bed! And I can't sleep so I'm going out to smoke and talk to people." He ran after me again and yelled across the parking lot: "You get back here like a normal person!" I shot back: "A normal person would cuddle." We stared at each other for a while and I slowly started walking his way. I really tried to cuddle but once I smelled his scent and felt his warm skin I found myself begging to fellate him and he finally relented but told me to get myself in a position to get spanked and I squealed with delight and told him to spank me really hard because I really needed it and he complied with relish and even let me ride him for awhile so I got mine and fell asleep in a spoon position which was all I really wanted to dispell my heartache. This morning I also changed my routine by not waking him up, just going about my business, made his breakfast, but didn't try to conjole him to eat with me like I usually do and when he came in the kitchen and sai d he would have to take his breakfast to go I didn't sigh, I just smiled and wrapped it up nice for him and he said: "I'm 30 minutes late now, it's not your fault." And instead of lowering my eyes like a naughty girl who kept him up too late the night before, I looked straight in his eye and said with grin: "I didn't think it was MY fault." He looked puzzled and hurt, especially as he looked around the spotless kitchen and saw I'd done the chores I had nagged him about for days, so I followed him out to the truck to say goodbye and got the litter out of the back and gave him a cheery "See you later, Sweetheart." After he left I realised I hadn't cleared the air about his accusing me of having an affair, in fact I had said something rather smart-ass, so I called and appologized for that. He said it was alright, he didn't care. I sternly shot back: "Don't say YOU DON"T CARE." I might sound a little crazy, but I'm at my wits end and like you said, Bethie, I need to shift these dynamics lest we fall into an abusive relationship of my own design. He paused for a minute and then said more softly, "I mean it doesn't matter, it's okay." Now who knows what the day may bring. I may come home tonight and find he's gone for good or he may go out on a bender to end all benders, but I felt like I had nothing to lose and hope I played my cards right. I don't think I'm asking much. As for the talked about agreement, I don't see that happening. He's just not a verbal person. Really. It's not a ploy on his part. I can see in his eyes sometimes the frustration of his wanted to express something and really doesn't know what to say. One of the few agreements we have is that he doesn't have to say "I love you," because it messes with his head so much and I agreed to stop hounding him about it because he shows his love rather than professes it. I may still be in over my head, as you said, but I'm trying to claw my way back into a livable space. Thanks again for your concern. I truly couldn't talk to any one about these matters. You are heaven sent. Hugs.

Kitten, Please don't feel like you shouldn't talk about these matters. This is a safe place to vent your feelings in an anynomous way. No-one is judging you at all, simply offering advice that you can use or throw away. Whenever any us see or feel that another member is in a potentially negative relationship we do discuss it. If nothing else, it may help anyone who is lurking here, just reading and picking up information. It sounds like you are taking some positive steps, but it is still saddening to me that you feel that you need to always appease. There are members here who have been in off sided relationships, so the warning signs may be more apparent to them.

On another note, I simply want to add that with this being a nonjudgemental site, every one has a right to live their own lifestyle. What is "cheating" to one person may be completely acceptable to another. Therefore even if the majority of us choose to have a spanking relationship with a single person, if a couple are open to having additional spanking partners, we need to treat that right as we would want our own lifestyles to be repected. Queen of Innocence

wow Kitten,after reading some of your posts your relationship,if you can call it that,is a strange one and it really sounds like you are not appreciated enough.You obviously have some fight in you and maybe you should use that a bit more.Though you tend to give in too easily. One point that stuck out,for me,was about you both agreeing that he does not have to say I love you. My wife had the same problem,she would tell me she loved me all the time,but I would not respond.It was hard to express my feelings. However I realised,after a while,that every now and then she needed to hear me say it.Though I understand that you should only say it if you mean it and say it with feeling. Therefore no agreement is necessary.If he loves you then he should be able to tell you even if it was once in a while.It sounds like he's messing with your head not his own.

At this point, I believe Kitten has received more than enough input from us. I suggest we rest the topic and let her digest the situation and make her own decisions. If she has any more questions, I am sure she will voice them. Even though we are a caring, compassionate community who want to clarify the difference between the spanking lifestyle and a controlling individual, I am now concerned that we are making Kitten feel alienated. Queen of Innocence

Kitten, it sounds to me that you are doing some serious thinking about your relationship. I was abused for 30 years, physical and mental. I think you may be on the right track. May I suggest a local shelter for abused women and make an appt with a counselor? They will not judge you I promise. And you won't have to leave unless you want to. Please keep us informed cos we care.Take my heart and soul. But please don't step on it, it breaks easily.

My concern is for kitten's daughter. please don't take the frustrations of your relationship on her. Remember that she sees everything you let a man do to you. What you accept is the bar she will set for herself. Do you want your daughters future to be a replay of your present? One of the main reasons relationships fail is because women develop expectations of what they wish their guy was, or they see a potential of what he could be. He is what he is. If his actions & demeanor frustrate you now, they will continue to do so. It won't get better unless you consider getting used to it be "better". That old saying is true. If you love something, let it go. If it returns to you, it will be yours forever. If it doesn't, it never was yours at all. Most of the time, if we stop lying to ourselves for just one moment, we know - truly know that we do not belong there, and we need to do whatever it takes to get out of there. It's a deep-in-the-pit of your stomach stab of fear, a sense of total helplesness in the face of the unknown. But it's real and it's true and you know it. It's a scary thought, but as Shylah pointed out, speaking with a councelor might help you get new perspective on your situation. You may be confusing loving this guy with infatuation. One of my lifetime "aha" moments was learning the difference between love and infatuation. I left a verbally abusive relationship when I read an Ann Landers column on the difference between the two. I realized I'd been "infatuated" with this guy for 2 years and was not really in love with him. I was pretty much "tolerated", and not so much his "girlfriend" but expected to "perform" at his beck and call. All I wanted was him to love me. I get the feeling you want loved is all, Kitten, so much so that you're willing to accept abuse and try tack trendy fetish names on it and use it as a substitute for love. Whatever you decide, just be sure that your daughter is receiving positive image messages from her mother through all this please?Some day you'll spank me... er thank me for this!

Thanks for all the input guys. I have gone the shelter/copunseling tack before and please don't think that is a nirvana. Our situation has deteriorated rapidly in the short time since I've posted and begun my introspection and started demanding more. He stayed out, caught him at a strip club, a woman called him repeatedly and he went out to his truck to call her back and told her loved her and had told me he was leaving me. Since there is no real physical violence going on I think I have the luxury of letting time take care of this. He says he will give me time to get my finances in order and then be gone as soon as possible. Thanks for helping me clarify my situation.

Kitten...I hope that none of us made you feel alienated, it was never our intent. And YES - you did have something constructive to add to this thread! I think that the reason all of us responded so often was because we care ABOUT you, and what happens TO you. Please let this site be your "sounding board" - we are in your corner! "Do I have to be good ALL the time?"

Kitten you don't have to be in a relationship to be here. You just have to be interested in one form or another of the spanking lifestyle. We have plenty of singles here as well as spankos with vanilla partners and other situations that don't involve being in a spanking relationship.

I'm sorry this relationship didn't work out as you had hoped and you're hurting now. We're just concerned for you and were trying to help out a fellow spanko. That's what we do here.

I know I might have come on strong, but that's because you had me worried about your safety. I can't help but be concerned about the people who come to this site and appear to be in trouble.

Kitten you belong here just as much as everyone else does. You don't have to have a partner to discuss your wants and needs with us. We all are spankos and that is why we are here. Just because some have partners and others don't doesn't mean that everyone hasn't got something to offer.

I'm sorry your relationship didn't turn out like you wanted. But ya know, when He closes a door, He opens a window. Don't forget to look outside and see the beauty.Take my heart and soul. But please don't step on it, it breaks easily.

I,m not in a relationship right now either Kitten.But the den isn,t just for couples.It,s important to understand that a relationship is between two persons.From the moment you become just an object instead of a person then it,s not a relationship anymore.He,s the person and you,re the object.Granted some people get off on being treated badly but most of us want to be treated as a person with wants and needs.One of those needs wanting to be cherished.You have every right to expect that as a minimum if not what,s the reason for the relationship.If it,s an economic dependence then then you,re fucked cause you have to make some very tough decisions.Be strong honey.

Thank you guys for your concern, it sure helped me take stock of things. I really was depressed yesterday and went to the pub to get some liquid courage to get through the day of cleaning, laundry, dinner, etc. trying to act like everything is ok isn't my strong suit. I was telling the batender my woes and i was the only person in there so he listened and said, f that. You don't have to drag this out and it's hurting youself. Tell him to get his s and get out already. So i did and he said he was too busy so i said i would go out for awhile and when i got back i wanted his s out because i didn;t want him to stay and be unhappy and i wasn't happy and the other woman wasn't happy so he should go already to her and be happy at least 2 out of 3 of us would be happy and i was going to be miserable either way so just stop dragging my heart around and go already. then i went to a tavern where my friend hangs out and got a little soused and when i got home he said he really had never intended on leaving and just wanted al this drama to stop. so i said okay and i learned a few things. 1. if i really love him i have to let him go if he's unhappy. 2. i can't play the submission thing because i lose myself in it too much. 3. i have to be brave enough to go it alone if i have to. 4. i have to stand up for my rights to make this relationship work, when i let him walk over me we were both unhappy and committing dangerous behavior. 5. there are a lot of people out there who care about me. Thanks. Hugs.

Great advice Shylah.I like the last bit,excellent Kitten it sounds like you have read a lot of our posts to this forum and have taken note.You make some good points and we hope that you will stick to them and be strong.If you do go it alone(or not)then the den is here for you no matter what and i'm sure the others will agree and would love to help.

Kitten, be strong hon, we are a very supportive group here and we want to be here for you if you need to talk. You can depend on us to give you honest truth as we know it, and work with any advice that helps you. I'm glad for you that things are settling somewhat at home. The thing with the stripper would be a dealbreaker for me though. That would have ended any hope of reconciliation in my book. My big dealbreakers are lying, cheating, meth, physical abuse & verbal abuse. In past & current relationships, I made that clear up front. When I was down and out, a shaman friend showd me how to use the sacred circle to improve my life. Draw a circle, and write within it, what things you want IN your life. Outside the circle, write the things you WILL NOT have in your life. When you can SEE these things in a physical sense, it helps to make them happen. A man becomes what he thinks about all day long. Good luck Kitten, keep us posted on how things go!Some day you'll spank me... er thank me for this!

Kitten, although you say, "I have gone the shelter/copunseling tack before and please don't think that is a nirvana," I'm still going to recommend you speak to someone about your problems in a counselor setting of some kind. We can give you some support here, but I really feel you need more than that. It may not be a perfect solution, but it can be the first step.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I have some concerns. Your drinking isn't going to help this situation, you need a clear head when you try to handle the situation. It may make you feel better at the time, but when you're dealing with serious issues, it's not the time to drink.

How is your daughter dealing with all of this? I'm worried about her as well.

I have to agree with Bethie - we are a good support base, but in times like this, its always best to seek professional help. Also, I have to comment on this line you wrote:

"i went to a tavern where my friend hangs out and got a little soused and when i got home he said he really had never intended on leaving and just wanted al this drama to stop."

He never wanted to leave and did this to you so the drama would stop?? Honey, that's cruel - and you deserve SO much better. The "liquid courage" will only make things seem fuzzy and out of sorts. A clear head is what you need at this point. You take care of you ok? Be well~~~"Do I have to be good ALL the time?"