furls wrote:Gotta say that the Bengals got a steal with Fragel in the 7th round. Kid is just figuring out how to play tackle. My guess is that he is a solid pro for about a decade at RT. The rest of OSU's class in this year's draft is really weak.

Hankins could be good, but could be a bust.Simon cannot be an NFL LB and is barely fast enough to be an NCAA DE, let alone NFL

Fragel was the real gem. 6-8" 310, 37 bench reps TE athleticism.... kid will be a player in the NFL and I was hoping the Browns would grab him in the 6th or 7th round.

I could have sworn that I saw Fragel's name being tossed around as a potential top 50 pick in the weeks leading up to the draft. I'm probably just confused.

When asked about the trade to the Steelers and trading within the division in general, Banner responds (paraphrasing) "he prefers to trade within the division. You don't make a trade you don't think you're winning. If you get the better of the trade, you've also hurt a team in your division"...references the McNabb trade with the Redskins.

So yeah, first trade between the Browns and Steelers in 45 years, but I have to admit he's building some faith in me. Time will tell, but at least next year the Steelers have no natural 3rd rounder.

OldDawg wrote:Bronws trade 4th round pick and 5th round pick away.1) Haslam can't afford to draft any more players, or2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year.

My guess is #1

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

When asked about the trade to the Steelers and trading within the division in general, Banner responds (paraphrasing) "he prefers to trade within the division. You don't make a trade you don't think you're winning. If you get the better of the trade, you've also hurt a team in your division"...references the McNabb trade with the Redskins.

So yeah, first trade between the Browns and Steelers in 45 years, but I have to admit he's building some faith in me. Time will tell, but at least next year the Steelers have no natural 3rd rounder.

OldDawg wrote:.......2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year......

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

Man I hope its not option #2. A 6'1, Air Raid system QB , with a Arm described as 'Average'... Ill pass. The numbers he is putting up in College is a direct result of Sumlin's system, and B12 Defense's.

Id take a flyer on Braxton Miller and his dieing quail passes, who some say might have the best arm in college football (though admittedly I have not seen that yet) in the 3rd round or later before Id touch Johnny 'I'm to cool for school' football.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

OldDawg wrote:.......2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year......

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

Man I hope its not option #2. A 6'1, Air Raid system QB , with a Arm described as 'Average'... Ill pass. The numbers he is putting up in College is a direct result of Sumlin's system, and B12 Defense's.

Id take a flyer on Braxton Miller and his dieing quail passes, who some say might have the best arm in college football (though admittedly I have not seen that yet) in the 3rd round or later before Id touch Johnny 'I'm to cool for school' football.

I'm not for/against Johnny Football at this point, but he played in the SEC last season, not the B12.

OldDawg wrote:.......2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year......

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

Man I hope its not option #2. A 6'1, Air Raid system QB , with a Arm described as 'Average'... Ill pass. The numbers he is putting up in College is a direct result of Sumlin's system, and B12 Defense's.

Id take a flyer on Braxton Miller and his dieing quail passes, who some say might have the best arm in college football (though admittedly I have not seen that yet) in the 3rd round or later before Id touch Johnny 'I'm to cool for school' football.

You may want to check ur NCAA realignment chart.

BTW the Big 10 blows on both sides of the ball. IIRC the Wisky C was the only 1st round pick? Who went next?

OldDawg wrote:.......2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year......

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

Man I hope its not option #2. A 6'1, Air Raid system QB , with a Arm described as 'Average'... Ill pass. The numbers he is putting up in College is a direct result of Sumlin's system, and B12 Defense's.

Id take a flyer on Braxton Miller and his dieing quail passes, who some say might have the best arm in college football (though admittedly I have not seen that yet) in the 3rd round or later before Id touch Johnny 'I'm to cool for school' football.

You may want to check ur NCAA realignment chart.

BTW the Big 10 blows on both sides of the ball. IIRC the Wisky C was the only 1st round pick? Who went next?

Le'Veon Bell went to Steelers soon after Kawaan Short went somewhere. Not sure about after that though.

OldDawg wrote:Bronws trade 4th round pick and 5th round pick away.1) Haslam can't afford to draft any more players, or2) We are stockpiling picks next year to trade up to grab Johnny Football next year.

My guess is #1

It would make perfect sense for this organization to draft Johnny Football when Clowney is also on the board.

The totals are somewhat impacted by two very Tressel Class related things:

1) the 2008 class, while a solid class talent wise, never lived up to the #1 class EVAH hype and the five year players from that class should have been drafted this year

2) the 2009 class, another Tressel top five monster recruiting class ended up a pile of hot garbage. Literally what a fucking crappy class.... it's almost unreal

These issues will change, as will Rich Rod ruining scUM.

I expect OSU and UM to churn out players at an SEC like level in the near future. That said, with PSU being murdered it's going to be hard to even get a third team that can produce any kind of talent consistently. Nebraska, MSU and UW will always have some kids drafted but nothing near where they should.

And it's only getting worse. Right now Stoops down at Kentucky is having his pick of Ohio kids OSU passed on. Those kids used to go to B1G schools, now we're even seeing them defect to the SEC (and to go 2-10 in the SEC at that).

Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

peeker643 wrote:Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

To be fair neither of those guys ever lit up anything, unless you count the sterno cans at the catering company they both now serve for.

I believe "fluid hips" and "polished" were the superlatives used to vault them into the second round.

Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

That's what confuses me about Mingo and McFadden, Peeker. Where is the consistent logic of the process?

One is the consummate workout warrior, and the other the low numbers football player.

peeker643 wrote:Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

To be fair neither of those guys ever lit up anything, unless you count the sterno cans at the catering company they both now serve for.

I believe "fluid hips" and "polished" were the superlatives used to vault them into the second round.

peeker643 wrote:Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

To be fair neither of those guys ever lit up anything, unless you count the sterno cans at the catering company they both now serve for.

I believe "fluid hips" and "polished" were the superlatives used to vault them into the second round.

Where's that draft thread at, it was a doosey!

The Browns apparently loved Robiskie's 'athleticism and verticality'. I remember them talking about him high-pointing footballs with a 38" vertical and being far faster/quicker than what he looked. And his 'hand span' was impressive.

As for Veikune? Maybe they should have just gone by the numbers and said, "no thanks" because it seems like they saw something that the numbers said wasn't there. ;-)

Meh... that guy's just a football player. No room for guys like that in Berea. You better light up a watch or a 3-cone drill if ya want to walk on those hallowed grounds withthe Veikunes and the Robiskies.

That's what confuses me about Mingo and McFadden, Peeker. Where is the consistent logic of the process?

One is the consummate workout warrior, and the other the low numbers football player.

Other than Jon Kuhn, how many D2 players are in the entire NFL?

We drafted 2.

I don't know. That's why I wrote about process when it's hard for me because I'm not a guy who puts process ahead of all else. Not in a business sense anyway.

But they don't seem to have a clear cut philosophy or methodology and I think that's something that you don't have time to develop. You can develop one, but you'll usually be fired before it's finished.

I just think there's too much ego and arrogance with Banbardi. I really do think that they think that they're smarter than everyone else. And I still say (and in and of itelf it's not much more than an alarm) that sitting there in RD1 and not letting your time wind down and seeing if anyone calls (regardless of likelihood) is:1) Irresponsible from a business persepective. The very, VERY worst thing that happens if you wait the ten minutes is you get the player you like.2) A sign you think you nailed this to the point of insecurity.

The players will be who they are. But I'm not a fan of how the organization is set up from a drafting perspective and I didn't like what I saw in terms of how they handled their business.

peeker643 wrote:I just think there's too much ego and arrogance with Banbardi. I really do think that they think that they're smarter than everyone else.

One of the things the Browns—more than any other NFL team—have been damned with over the past 14 years is a bunch of guys who thought they were smarter than everyone else. And that will continue to get them nowhere, until those guys really ARE smarter than everyone else. For that, I'm not holding my breath.

peeker643 wrote:As for Veikune? Maybe they should have just gone by the numbers and said, "no thanks" because it seems like they saw something that the numbers said wasn't there. ;-)

I honestly think that one of the reasons that we drafted Veikune is that the Browns wanted a Polamalu of their very own. And you can throw Maiava into that grand theory as well. I base this on nothing, but you'll never convince me that wasnt part of it.

Passing on Maualuga in the same draft doesn't fit my theory so I'll ignore that part.

peeker643 wrote:I just think there's too much ego and arrogance with Banbardi. I really do think that they think that they're smarter than everyone else. And I still say (and in and of itelf it's not much more than an alarm) that sitting there in RD1 and not letting your time wind down and seeing if anyone calls (regardless of likelihood) is:1) Irresponsible from a business persepective. The very, VERY worst thing that happens if you wait the ten minutes is you get the player you like.2) A sign you think you nailed this to the point of insecurity.

3) The draft isn't that good, so you're comfortable knowing that a Mingo in the hand is worth more than whatever the Rams could offer. Your mileage may vary, but Banner/Lombardi were very demonstrative on just how they felt about this year's draft class.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

jb wrote:That's what confuses me about Mingo and McFadden, Peeker. Where is the consistent logic of the process?

One is the consummate workout warrior, and the other the low numbers football player.

Other than Jon Kuhn, how many D2 players are in the entire NFL?

We drafted 2.

Does the University of Delaware count as D-1?

As for philosophy, best I can gather Lombardi was finishing up Horton's shopping list while stocking up in case they want to make a run at Clowney, Bridgewater, or Manziel next year. Then again, I've had fourteen years of philosophies, I'm just content to see if Horton can give us an honest-to-Lebeau pass rush.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

If Clowney keeps performing like he has been and does what he's capable of this season, he has to go #1. Kid's closest comparison has to be Bruce Smith. I know it comes down to needs, and if some team needs a QB I'm sure that they'll take Teddy over him, but man, it would be hard to pass up.

Considering the closest thing we had to an elite QB since the Browns came back was DA for only one decent season. Outside of that, its been like looking for water in the Sahara Desert.

And I agree that Clowney might be a once every 5-10 years kind of player, but its been like 15 years without a QB. If we don't get one next year at the top of the draft, we'll have to hope we get lucky later in the draft. One thing we haven't been is lucky.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

Passing on a once in a generation pass rusher for a good but not great QB prospect.

Andrew isn't coming out this year.

"My leg hurts."- Sam Bowie

"So's my knee. Where's my dog?"- Greg Oden

Pass the ball. Stop the pass. That's the 2013 NFL. Two parts.

Well, the difference is clearly in the wording. If Teddy is rated as elite, you take him. If he is good but not great, go ahead and take Clowney.

Pressuring the QB is created as much through scheme as it is individual talent. You can create pressure without taking someone at #1. You cannot create a QB.

Ask the Texans if they trade JJ Watt for Andrew Luck.

I can do bidnezz wichu that Teddy Football is the wild card here. RG3 made that huge leap his SR year. I'll say maybe. then rest of that group is all Chris Chandler to me.

But if you think Clowney, the freak of all freaks, is just JJ Watt, then Andrew Luck was Christian Ponder.

And I call BS on your pass rush = scheme take. It's about playas and playmakers on both sides of the ball. You can also say that the passing game is about scheme & team to a degree, unless you think Joe Flacco was an "elite" prospect.

e0y2e3 wrote:You don't need Clowney when you have Benbacriasksdfivsus.

My point.

You can't make a chicken salad pass rush from chicken shit players. I've seen many elite QB's & passing games who/that weren't top 5 picks the past 5 seasons. But you can't mangini yourself into a pass rush. You'd better have the BSD pass rusher.

Clowney is the freak of all freaks plus he likes to rip heads off. Bonus.

Although I am in agreement if there isn't an elite QB there at 1, there's no way you don't take Clowney. I am NOT saying that we simply draft QB because ours sucks. Not at all. We could have had any QB we wanted this year and didn't bite, and I am OK with that.

BTW, what a freaking name for a guy that can take your head off and hand it to you. Clowney. I bet someone made fun of his name... once.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

Passing on a once in a generation pass rusher for a good but not great QB prospect.

Andrew isn't coming out this year.

"My leg hurts."- Sam Bowie

"So's my knee. Where's my dog?"- Greg Oden

Pass the ball. Stop the pass. That's the 2013 NFL. Two parts.

Well, the difference is clearly in the wording. If Teddy is rated as elite, you take him. If he is good but not great, go ahead and take Clowney.

Pressuring the QB is created as much through scheme as it is individual talent. You can create pressure without taking someone at #1. You cannot create a QB.

Ask the Texans if they trade JJ Watt for Andrew Luck.

I can do bidnezz wichu that Teddy Football is the wild card here. RG3 made that huge leap his SR year. I'll say maybe. then rest of that group is all Chris Chandler to me.

But if you think Clowney, the freak of all freaks, is just JJ Watt, then Andrew Luck was Christian Ponder.

And I call BS on your pass rush = scheme take. It's about playas and playmakers on both sides of the ball. You can also say that the passing game is about scheme & team to a degree, unless you think Joe Flacco was an "elite" prospect.

The Ravens won the Super Bowl cause of their QB.

Their marquis pass rusher/defensive player of the year was basically on the shelf all year.

A very good QB trumps a Hall of Fame pass rusher in today's NFL. All day. Every day.

The caveat is not knowing. Sure, if we assume they are gonna eschew Clowney for some roll of the dice that ends up being a bumb, than, Christ, we all know how stupid that would be. But to be clear, if you end up passing on a very good QB for ANY other position, well, that would be stupider still. And yes, I said stupider.

Getting to the QB is in the big three that matter, (QB, getting to the QB, protecting the QB) but without a QB, none of them really matter, cause you ain't winning.

Put Bruce Smith on this team the last 6 years and you're winning the same 5 games. Put a top ten QB in the league here and you'd be on your way - on your way enough to win a Super Bowl? Perhaps not, but you'da a removed the organization from the laughingstock status it now clearly holds - as well as winning a hell of a lot more games.

Teams with bad defenses are winning A TON of games in this league the past several years. And the teams with the good defenses have figured out that they still better to be able to hang 30 or they are F'd.