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Now, just think about any of your current builds, they depend heavily on gear, LI Legacies etc. Are we now going to need to carry around two sets of gear, and LIs just so when we are FORCED to re-trait we can still be reasonably effective?

What a very clever way of forcing players to buy more bag/bank space and more LI slots.

While I agree with your sentiment about choice this here I do not understand really.

My loremaster experience is rather limited but most other classes already needed two sets of LIs/gear anyway now to be effective in different roles (even if switched to on the fly without retraiting, i.e. my warden carries a couple of armour pieces and jewellery to switch out and of course a tanking weapon when switching from landscape stuff to tanking, same for the runekeeper and minstrel).

So putting that on the new trait system is not fair.

You will have less choice for a certain setup however you will win the chance to trait specifically for different encounters in a single instance without leaving it. I am not sure if there are any encounters that wold really profit a lot from that but we will see.

How effective we will be by switching a role on the fly during an encounter we will see but I expect it to be much less effective than currently because we will miss some skills (i.e. talking about dps runekeepers switching midfight to help healing e.g.) on top of not being much effective already in the current system because of the traiting.

While I agree with your sentiment about choice this here I do not understand really.

My loremaster experience is rather limited but most other classes already needed two sets of LIs/gear anyway now to be effective in different roles (even if switched to on the fly without retraiting, i.e. my warden carries a couple of armour pieces and jewellery to switch out and of course a tanking weapon when switching from landscape stuff to tanking, same for the runekeeper and minstrel).

I disagree.

Of all my characters (Level 85 Warden, Captain, Lore-master, Hunter, Minstrel; Level 70 Rune-Keeper) all of them use just one set of LIs - with the exception of my Cappy who has a Buff-Stick.

None of them carry an extra set of gear.

It may be that serious raiders (of which I am not one) carry multiple LI/Gear sets; but in my experience most other players don't - and I've never once heard of a player swapping out traits/LIs and Gear just to run a 10 Minute Skirmish.

Of all my characters (Level 85 Warden, Captain, Lore-master, Hunter, Minstrel; Level 70 Rune-Keeper) all of them use just one set of LIs - with the exception of my Cappy who has a Buff-Stick.

None of them carry an extra set of gear.

It may be that serious raiders (of which I am not one) carry multiple LI/Gear sets; but in my experience most other players don't - and I've never once heard of a player swapping out traits/LIs and Gear just to run a 10 Minute Skirmish.

All The Best

I firmly agree with most of your sentiments in your post before that one.. However, like the above poster, I have always had a full set of armor and jewelry in my bags for my guys, since level 65. My warden to match his Red DPS traits, I would even swap some of the jewelry and his legendaries in combat if I swapped from Recklessness to Determination. Same with my LM, if I took the time to run to a bard to trait MoNF, I carried gear to put on with way more Will than HP. I actually had two legendaries per, to make my AM skills, MonF skills and my Animal Friend stuff more effective, depending on how I was traited.

Sigh.. having two bags plus dedicated to gear, 5 legendaries to level up and food means I was ALWAYS short on bag space. I too see no fix for this situation with the announced info for HD.

Of all my characters (Level 85 Warden, Captain, Lore-master, Hunter, Minstrel; Level 70 Rune-Keeper) all of them use just one set of LIs - with the exception of my Cappy who has a Buff-Stick.

None of them carry an extra set of gear.

It may be that serious raiders (of which I am not one) carry multiple LI/Gear sets; but in my experience most other players don't - and I've never once heard of a player swapping out traits/LIs and Gear just to run a 10 Minute Skirmish.

All The Best

This is fine but what makes you believe that you have to do it soon now with the new trait trees?
I just do not see the connection of the trait trees forcing you to do that now.

It has not not been ideal to not do it before and it will not be ideal to not do it once HD is here.

It seems that you think that non specialized LIs and gear will be a bigger drawback because of the more specialized trait trees.
I am not sure i see that connection.

my only question is how easy will it be to switch from one branch of a tree to another? right now If i am out with my mini it takes but a moment to change into full heal mode if a group needs a healer. and then I can easily go back to dps mode to solo. If I am going to be locked into one branch of the tree or its very expensive/difficult to change then I would consider this change to trees a big fail. but if going from one branch of a tree to another is quick and easy I am very much looking forward to it.

For my part, I think over time the classes have gotten so many abilities--it was cool in moria and mirkwood to be able to tank and heal oneself (as a guard), but it could (in a lot of cases, honest) make guards too self-sufficient and not need to group . . . if you NEED a heal traited captain, or in a Big Battle, need a guard that can keep some aggro and heal himself while the other takes huge aggro on another group . . . then you NEED those other traited members in order to be effective. In a way it's going "back" to the old fellowship concept . . . where everyone has to learn their role and abilities well instead of just spamming skills.

I also imagine it's tough to have "big battle" mentality (landscape, tons of mobs, 12-?? players) and for the servers to manage all the current skills with all their traits and legacy and relic upgrades, instantly, it must be a difficult challenge for them. I am guessing this will ease the load on the servers and reduce lag and produce better play. I guess that's their goal at least, and I wish them the best.

I'm kinda sad I can't be awesome on all my skills all the time, but i'm looking forward to the game dynamics.

Free Respec

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere else,
while I don't see a problem with Trait Trees...in fact I quite like the idea, having played Star Wars Galaxies when they had a similar Skill Tree system, I thought it worked well and allowed for better customization, although theirs was even wider, you could be a Bounty Hunter and still put skills in Dancing Etc if you really want to?..When the Skill Trees were scrapped is when I and I think a lot of Galaxies players Left the game.
But the Question I have is .. We will be getting a Free Respec I assume when it all changes? and if Deeds etc. count towards Trait Points, will already completed Deed be taken into account? ..My highest guy is only 58 Level, but I Imagine the Max level people, who have completed Most if not all the Area & Class deeds already will feel a little cheated if Deeds are not looked at in retrospec.

When the Skill Trees were scrapped is when I and I think a lot of Galaxies players Left the game.

If any one should understand how a lot of people are feeling, it sure as heck should be you. Just like you were so disappointed in your trees being changed/scrapped in that game, that you left it, think about how the many people in this game may be feeling at the thoughts of being forced into trait trees, when we are so used to the versatility that this game has offered for so many years. The thought of it makes some gringe, like myself.

This may be the same outcome for this game (people leaving), time will tell.

Never ceases to amaze me that people say "I hate the grind" without offering an alternative, and the reason is because (whether you like it or not) there is no alternative. The developers cannot simply go on adding more and more content, it's an MMO, there has to be time-sinks of some sort to keep people occupied once they consume all the content. If you don't like the grind don't do it.
l

Of course there is an alternative. No level cap increases. They could have maintained the level cap at 50, and added real "expansions"-- an expansion being new content added to the game without taking old content away. [What LOTRO calls an expansion is not really an expansion, its really an obliteration of old content and replacing one game with a new game that shares some of the same stuff. A real expansion, like LOD for Diablo II, adds content without taking away old content]. What is it about Moria that required a level cap increase ? Why not just add more level 50 raids and instances. Then if people wanted to continue doing Carn Dum and stuff, they could. Loot could be gradually increased to give you something to work toward, but what is the point of a level cap increase ? No upside, plenty of downside. Or they could make it like Diablo I, level cap 50, but once you hit 45 or so it takes a really long time to go up a level. I'm no expert in the variety of MMOs available, but there are certainly some with no level cap increases. Wizard 101 is one. Another is AOL's Neverwinter Nights from 1996. People would level up to about 22 or so, and after that it was pure instances and PVP, all day, every day. Now that was fun. It only took about three weeks to level up a character to max level, and after that, all you had to do was play the game. They charged three dollars per hour to play, one month I spent $900 on that game. Then it went unlimited play for $20 a month or so, and the servers could not handle the volume, so they had to end it. I've been looking for something similar ever since. Havn't found it.

BTW, how exactly does one "consume all the content," if there are multiple instances and raids at level cap? IF they were all on level (say, if they had maintained 50 as the level cap), LOTRO has what some 45 or so raids, instances and skirms? So you could do two different ones per day every day seven days a week and not repeat anything for three weeks. And what if each one of them dropped something different that you wanted ? Now that would be an awesumly fun game! No grind except looking for better gear. Its what made Diablo I such a hit.

The only point I can see for level cap increases is to give immature players the illusion that they are getting stronger. They're not. They just scale up everything else, so in relative terms you stay the same. But some of your time is diverted from hunting up better magic items to leveling up, so you are actually getting weaker compared to where you could be if you could invest 100% of your time into hunting for better gear.

I certainly will never again join an MMO that has level cap increases.

Forgot one of the main reasons for the revamp though. A complete skill revamp means all the old legendary and store items become even more useless, so not only the level increase, but this will increase store sales rather than have to go through grind through the horrible legendary item system. LotRO wouldn't get to become just another WoW clone without that profit.

If any one should understand how a lot of people are feeling, it sure as heck should be you. Just like you were so disappointed in your trees being changed/scrapped in that game, that you left it, think about how the many people in this game may be feeling at the thoughts of being forced into trait trees, when we are so used to the versatility that this game has offered for so many years. The thought of it makes some gringe, like myself.

This may be the same outcome for this game (people leaving), time will tell.

But Skill Trees .. or Trait Trees in this case .. offer more versatility? or at least they should if they are going to be done in way similar to Galaxies that is my point .. i know some will have been on longer... but I have be on LOTRO myself for well over a year, far longer i might add than any other MMO has held my attention for, so i'm not just accepting the change because i'm a Newb .... if it's done right I actually do believe it could change the gameplay for the better. Am I 100% sold on such a big change No ... but from knowing how Trees can work, I guess i'm just hopeful and keeping my fingers crossed

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere else,
while I don't see a problem with Trait Trees...in fact I quite like the idea, having played Star Wars Galaxies when they had a similar Skill Tree system, I thought it worked well and allowed for better customization, although theirs was even wider, you could be a Bounty Hunter and still put skills in Dancing Etc if you really want to?..When the Skill Trees were scrapped is when I and I think a lot of Galaxies players Left the game.
But the Question I have is .. We will be getting a Free Respec I assume when it all changes? and if Deeds etc. count towards Trait Points, will already completed Deed be taken into account? ..My highest guy is only 58 Level, but I Imagine the Max level people, who have completed Most if not all the Area & Class deeds already will feel a little cheated if Deeds are not looked at in retrospec.

I really hope I am wrong, but I think this move to skill trees has the potential to be the death knell of LotRO. If Turbine messes this up and Traits that have been free to choose previously are now gated behind other traits that we are forced to have but don't want they will really upset a LOT of players. If for example I am forced to waste points getting a number of traits I don't want just to get certain ones I do want and therefore can't have all the traits I previously had equipped I am going to be bloody furious! After all the years I have spent developing my characters under the FREELY CUSTOMISABLE system we have had up until this point, to enable me to play them how I want and enjoy playing them, if Turbine does one of their FUBAR updates on this may never forgive them!

I really hope I am wrong, but I think this move to skill trees has the potential to be the death knell of LotRO. If Turbine messes this up and Traits that have been free to choose previously are now gated behind other traits that we are forced to have but don't want they will really upset a LOT of players. If for example I am forced to waste points getting a number of traits I don't want just to get certain ones I do want and therefore can't have all the traits I previously had equipped I am going to be bloody furious! After all the years I have spent developing my characters under the FREELY CUSTOMISABLE system we have had up until this point, to enable me to play them how I want and enjoy playing them, if Turbine does one of their FUBAR updates on this may never forgive them!

But this is what I am saying, from Galaxies I know it "Can" work well, but i'm not saying it automatically "Will" work well it does have to be done right, and a big part of that in my opinion is going to be that Initial Respec for all current characters and past deeds etc. being honoured in points to carry forward. I suppose the easy way might have been just have each Trait worth a certain amount of points, Powerful Traits costing more points, then just let everyone buy of the trees as they want to, if you just the the powerful stuff fine you get it, but it will take more time to get the points and until then you may not be able to do as much. Oh and of course with Galaxies nothing was "Locked In", if you found gameplay wasn't quite your style and you wanted to change your skills, then you could "Sell" the skills back and get your points back to buy different ones.

So still I think... Short Version ... could be good?, Could be Bad ...guess we are gonna have to wait and see, and try not to get angry before we have to

And the main thing some people are setting themselves up for is disappointment. If you have such a negative opinion of the class system before you've even played it, you're going to be extremely biased towards the system when it goes live, thus affecting how your initial view of it will be, even to the point of not giving it a fair chance because you already "know" it terrible, so why waste time on it.

And the main thing some people are setting themselves up for is disappointment. If you have such a negative opinion of the class system before you've even played it, you're going to be extremely biased towards the system when it goes live, thus affecting how your initial view of it will be, even to the point of not giving it a fair chance because you already "know" it terrible, so why waste time on it.

This isn't about negativity, its about worrying if we are going to lose traits and skills we already have and use constantly! Lets take for example a Lore Master who currently specs KoA 5 deep + Master of the staff. How do you think that player will feel if they are told, sorry, but under the new skill trees you have to spend enough points on the MoNF to get Master of the Staff that you haven't got enough for all your KoA traits anymore because it is gated deep in the tree? What about a Burglar who is QF, but relies on Mischievous Glee for that health boost mid fight. Do uou think they will be happy if it is gated out of their reach unless they drop a lot of QF to get it back?

Something especially worrying is all this talk about reducing the number of skills to simplify things. What skills are classes going to lose? What Turbine thinks are skills that may not be missed is not necessarily true. They could be skills that some players use all the time and suddenly find themselves without them and left with other skills they never wanted! Everything is too secret and based on Turbine's past record lots of platers have very little confidence in them doing this right and not making a total pig's ear of it!

These are genuine things to worry about. Remember some of us have invested a hell of a lot of money into this game and we are concerned about whether that money is about to disappear down black hole because the game is turning down a road that we don't want to go down and have no interest in playing in the future. Turbine's previous jaunt into skill trees (mounted combat) was hardly a success was it? players are still complaining about the mess they made of it, those that didn't quit and take their money elsewhere that is. This upgrade is going to have much further reaching consequences, for good or ill.

This isn't about negativity, its about worrying if we are going to lose traits and skills we already have and use constantly! Lets take for example a Lore Master who currently specs KoA 5 deep + Master of the staff. How do you think that player will feel if they are told, sorry, but under the new skill trees you have to spend enough points on the MoNF to get Master of the Staff that you haven't got enough for all your KoA traits anymore because it is gated deep in the tree? What about a Burglar who is QF, but relies on Mischievous Glee for that health boost mid fight. Do uou think they will be happy if it is gated out of their reach unless they drop a lot of QF to get it back?

Something especially worrying is all this talk about reducing the number of skills to simplify things. What skills are classes going to lose? What Turbine thinks are skills that may not be missed is not necessarily true. They could be skills that some players use all the time and suddenly find themselves without them and left with other skills they never wanted! Everything is too secret and based on Turbine's past record lots of platers have very little confidence in them doing this right and not making a total pig's ear of it!

These are genuine things to worry about. Remember some of us have invested a hell of a lot of money into this game and we are concerned about whether that money is about to disappear down black hole because the game is turning down a road that we don't want to go down and have no interest in playing in the future. Turbine's previous jaunt into skill trees (mounted combat) was hardly a success was it? players are still complaining about the mess they made of it, those that didn't quit and take their money elsewhere that is. This upgrade is going to have much further reaching consequences, for good or ill.

I'm not talking about people like you just wondering and waiting to form an opinion after it's released. I'm talking about the ones stating that class changes are going to kill the game and overall have already formed their opinions of how bad it will be before they've even played the new system. I know there are genuine worries. I have a couple, but I'm waiting to form an opinion before psyching myself out.

I'm not talking about people like you just wondering and waiting to form an opinion after it's released. I'm talking about the ones stating that class changes are going to kill the game and overall have already formed their opinions of how bad it will be before they've even played the new system. I know there are genuine worries. I have a couple, but I'm waiting to form an opinion before psyching myself out.

I'm waiting as well, to see whether it's still worth playing certain classes. All of my characters are on hold as its not worth leveling them anymore until I know what is going to happen. I may well delete certain classes altogether and concentrate on others, but until I know, just drift in circles waiting.

Sorry? Is LOTRO RPG or is it another game like strategy game or whatever?

In RPG there are always levels, stats, weapons and armors. And it must be significally improved while I play the game.
If my levels, abilities, stats do not improve with time it is not an RPG game anymore and I don't play non-RPG game.

Sorry? Is LOTRO RPG or is it another game like strategy game or whatever?

In RPG there are always levels, stats, weapons and armors. And it must be significally improved while I play the game.
If my levels, abilities, stats do not improve with time it is not an RPG game anymore and I don't play non-RPG game.

One of the things disturbing me (how levels are implemented with lotro) is that basic mobs like wolfs are so differently stat-wise considering the ones living in the shire, and the ones somewhere else.
Also the constant disposal of good raids/instances just because their level is static is disturbing. With each new expansion there actually is less content than more.
Currently you could cut levels in half, since nowadays you dont even get passives anymore, only a new skill every two levels.

Progression could be achieved via gear, and skills, both locked to completing certain content in the 'higher-level' areas.
Each new area would increase in difficulty and making previous gear and skills more or less a necessity to win (same as now you need a higher level).

Existing skills could be improved depending on what you achieved (giving bonuses like hitting more targets with AoE-Skills, having a wider area of effect, longer effect duration, dealing more crit damage, healing more, etc.). There is no need to express that via a 'level', especially considering that only the numbers get bigger, but actually you aren't more powerful, compared to fighting a shire wolf when you are level 10, and a rohan wolf at 85. You still require the same number of hits to defeat it, so you aren't more powerful.
Legendary items truly could be legendary, requiring special quests etc. to improve but since they all start at the same level, you actually get to keep the SAME weapon, developing a history, and not disposing it every few levels.

For me the benefits far outweigh an artifical increase in numbers by a random multiplier (10 dps vs. 200 morale = 1000 dps vs. 20000 morale):
- old content is still valid, new content adds to the choices, without invalidating old stuff (raids and landscape both)
- gear for old content might be weaker, yes, but is a stepping stone towards new stuff, so still a valid reward
- realism: the difference between mobs and player characters would be less drastic compared to now
- bigger player base for end game content: new players (at the low level cap) can actually provide to raids without having to grind through 95 levels (they just lack this or that skill or better gear)
- more challenge to content designers to keep things interesting since players wont be trapped in a gear grinding spirale each year..

With those examples pointed out I would like to present my thoughts on how the trait trees should have been setup. Simply put the trait trees should have followed in the footsteps of the old trait system as a way to enhance your character instead of a way to limit your character. All the skills they decided the classes should still keep should be usable just as they are now (with the exception of the legendary skills which should still be limited the same way they are now). The difference would be that in the case of a number of skills the base effectiveness of the skills would be lower than they currently are. This would allow access to the full range of skills like now but at a reduced effectiveness unless you put points towards building the skills back up. I'll use water lore as an example. The base skill under the trait trees may no longer stack or have the incoming healing buff attached. Points into the healing line trait tree would probably allow for the skill to regain its stacking effect as well as the incoming healing buff. Maybe instead of removing the stacking ability and the incoming healing buff the magnitude of the heal or the number of pulses would be effected. There are quite a few possibilities.

So rather than creating more clearly-defined roles for each class, your suggestion is to leave the current bloat of skills fully intact, and just whack the whole thing with a big nerf hammer? Even if you leave an opportunity to get some of the nerfing back through skill point investment as you describe, what does that solve? How does it improve the game? And when has a straight-up nerf ever been well received?

Like it or not, Turbine is trying to address something other than what you appear to be addressing. They’re making wholesale changes to the class mechanics for variety and longevity. They want things like:

well-defined class roles as opposed to all-everything godmode class setups we can often get now. My LM (or your Cappy in your example) shouldn’t just be able to heal a little less in DPS-power mode, he shouldn’t be able to heal much at all if he’s getting big DPS bonuses. This forces more of a choice between big Sticky Gourd and Lightning Storm AoE DPS, or sweet Water Lore heals, or uber Fire and Frost Lore debuffs. The role of DPS-er, healer, or CC-er are more real. Like it or not (many predictably will not) that’s what Turbine is explicitly trying to do.

They’re also trying to reduce skill bloat which they feel (and I agree) has reach an unsustainable point. Future expansions and level cap increases can’t just keep adding to the existing massive pile, so they’re trying to reduce the pile in a way that isn’t just a simple reduction, via the three trait tree/role options. The good side about this is it tells me they think they’re going to be developing this game for at least another couple expansions.

I’m not in Beta and so have no idea yet how this will play out, and there will naturally be much QQ and numerous things that don’t go well at first. But in general I am looking forward to the forced role choices and the problems Turbine has said they’re trying to fix make sense to me.

I'm waiting as well, to see whether it's still worth playing certain classes. All of my characters are on hold as its not worth leveling them anymore until I know what is going to happen. I may well delete certain classes altogether and concentrate on others, but until I know, just drift in circles waiting.

Well, you're welcome to take a month off of playing the game. Me, I'm going to keep playing and leveling and deeding. That'll simply mean more points to spend in the skill tree when it hits.

This video intrigued me and I'm feeling pretty positive about what we're going to see as a result.

So rather than creating more clearly-defined roles for each class, your suggestion is to leave the current bloat of skills fully intact, and just whack the whole thing with a big nerf hammer? Even if you leave an opportunity to get some of the nerfing back through skill point investment as you describe, what does that solve? How does it improve the game? And when has a straight-up nerf ever been well received?

Like it or not, Turbine is trying to address something other than what you appear to be addressing. They’re making wholesale changes to the class mechanics for variety and longevity. They want things like:

well-defined class roles as opposed to all-everything godmode class setups we can often get now. My LM (or your Cappy in your example) shouldn’t just be able to heal a little less in DPS-power mode, he shouldn’t be able to heal much at all if he’s getting big DPS bonuses. This forces more of a choice between big Sticky Gourd and Lightning Storm AoE DPS, or sweet Water Lore heals, or uber Fire and Frost Lore debuffs. The role of DPS-er, healer, or CC-er are more real. Like it or not (many predictably will not) that’s what Turbine is explicitly trying to do.

They’re also trying to reduce skill bloat which they feel (and I agree) has reach an unsustainable point. Future expansions and level cap increases can’t just keep adding to the existing massive pile, so they’re trying to reduce the pile in a way that isn’t just a simple reduction, via the three trait tree/role options. The good side about this is it tells me they think they’re going to be developing this game for at least another couple expansions.

I’m not in Beta and so have no idea yet how this will play out, and there will naturally be much QQ and numerous things that don’t go well at first. But in general I am looking forward to the forced role choices and the problems Turbine has said they’re trying to fix make sense to me.

Classes already have clearly defined roles and have had for quite a long time so I have no idea where you're trying to go with that.

As for saying my recommendation is nerfing, what do you think the trait trees as they are going to be implemented are? The trait trees are a massive nerf and one even bigger than what I propose.

Beyond that, I don't think you understand what's happening with the skills. The skill "pruning" is completely separate from the trait trees. They're pruning skills no matter what and then they're gating access to other skills behind the trait tree. How you don't see that as a massive nerf I'll never understand.

What you don't seem to be able to figure out is that in the system I proposed an LM won't be able to do do full dps setup like now while still being able to heal to full extent. The tree would be designed so you simply couldn't do it. Would you be able to have some of the healing in full blown dps setup? Sure, but not the full range and potency. I also don't see why a cappy shouldn't be able to heal no matter what. I flat out stated that a cappy can currently heal too much in dps setup but there's absolutely no reason why the cappy shouldn't still be able to offheal. The cappy has always been able to do that so I don't see how you can expect to have that fundamental aspect taken away. I've played cappy since the Mirkwood days and I can tell you that while the ability to dps has gotten better overall that the cappy is nowhere near any top dps class and I don't see that changing with HD. Taking that into account, don't you think the cappy should still have the same abilities as before? Also keep in mind that in order to have decent healing while dps traited the cappy requires specific equipment and LIs. Without the full package so to speak the cappy doesn't have anywhere near the same healing ability.

Simply put, my proposal would limit the effectiveness of the skills and abilities of the non-primary traitlines to avoid overpowering certain classes or builds while at the same time allowing much of the same traiting flexibility we currently enjoy.

Classes already have clearly defined roles and have had for quite a long time so I have no idea where you're trying to go with that.

I agree. But to be fair here, there have been a lot of pushes to make so many classes into DPS. So many instance fights that revolved around how fast damage could be done, which alternate strategies were disallowed (crowd control, going slow and playing it safe, etc). So many things are now one tank (maybe), on healer (maybe), and everyone else doing maximum damage. Ie, a burglar is now commonly considered a main DPS class whereas when the game was new it was a debuffer/mezzer support class. Show up to a fight on LM traited for debuffing (their primary role) and others will scratch their head wondering why you're different.