Need expert opinion PLEASE

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[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=10674.msg130808#msg130808 date=1297890235]I choose to be INDECENT and refuse to reread your comments...however, I do believe that Father Peter also disliked the "analogies" you were using as he put it. So, apparently, I am not misreading your comments, at least one other person read it the same way I did.

No!! Father Peter thought I was comparing marriage to buying a pair of shoes. I SAID the decision making of ANYTHING is like that - I NEVER SAID Marriage is like buying a pair of shoes. The analogy was an attempt to explain that because something comes your way, it doesn't mean its right for you.

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130809#msg130809 date=1297890359]No!! Father Peter thought I was comparing marriage to buying a pair of shoes. I SAID the decision making of ANYTHING is like that - I NEVER SAID Marriage is like buying a pair of shoes. The analogy was an attempt to explain that because something comes your way, it doesn't mean its right for you.

However, I will stress that maybe the difference between Fr. Peter and myself is that I do feel that the man should find his wife physically attractive before marriage. Not necessarily sexual. Maybe because this opinion seems to be a bit "vain" - you may have thought that everything else is vain - and perhaps thought that I was objectifying women...

And I think also , I gave an example of a guy that just liked a woman with green eyes.. but my point is that - he found her attractive with those features... that's all.

I still don't think that this is particularly bad in anyway. I didn't say that those were her ONLY qualities... OF COURSE NOT! But , he is happy with the green eyes..

That's all I said.

But I do not deserve to be talked to like that for my opinion ESPECIALLY after having explained it. and then when I do explain it, you tell me :

I'd rather you didn't. I got offended enough the first time around

So, if you thought I was being arrogant for objectifying women, you are actually admitting you are arrogant.

I did not call you arrogant. Allow me to bring to your attention that you are the one who called me this. I am indeed arrogant in many respects and possess a lot of pride, especially in being a woman and I will defend any objectifying that goes on.

I met this Roman Catholic girl who wanted to marry a virgin. She INSISTED on it even.

I tried to tell her that virginity is something spiritual , and she cannot go around asking men these questions and insisting on this. People make mistakes and if God forgives them, who are we to hold it against them?

She is objectifying men.. she didnt care whether they had repented for it, or what led them to that level in their life.. she was just interested in "the goods".

That's AWFUL.

I want to give you her number so you can complain to her also.. or is it just men you attack!!!!!!!

-- And this actually brings me to the point that you CANNOT objectify anyone. You cannot go searching for a wife/husband AS IF you have a shopping list of qualities. This was my point all along!! However, I still think that her being pretty/attractive in your eyes is important.. i don't think its vain.

I met this Roman Catholic girl who wanted to marry a virgin. She INSISTED on it even.

I tried to tell her that virginity is something spiritual , and she cannot go around asking men these questions and insisting on this. People make mistakes and if God forgives them, who are we to hold it against them?

She is objectifying men.. she didnt care whether they had repented for it, or what led them to that level in their life.. she was just interested in "the goods".

That's AWFUL.

I want to give you her number so you can complain to her also.. or is it just men you attack!!!!!!!

EXCUSE ME??? WHAT KIND OF PERSON ARE YOU AND WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT MEN, WHO THINK THEY ARE SO HIGH AND MIGHTY ONLY LOOK FOR GIRLS WHO ARE VIRGINS?? WHY SHOULD A WOMAN NOT ASK FOR THE SAME?? >:( >:( >:( OR ARE WE JUST EXPECTED TO BE VIRGINS WHILE MEN (WITH THEIR GOD-ORDAINED POWER TO BE AS SEXUALLY ACTIVE AS THEY PLEASE) CAN SLEEP AROUND WITH WHOMEVER THEY WANT AND EXPECT TO FIND A SPOUSE EASILY?? I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH HER. ALL THE MEN I KNOW WON'T CLAIM THAT BECAUSE A GIRL ISN'T A VIRGIN SHE JUST MADE A MISTAKE!!!! NO MAN WILL EVER SAY THAT. THEY WANT THE VIRGIN >:( >:( >:(

I met this Roman Catholic girl who wanted to marry a virgin. She INSISTED on it even.

I tried to tell her that virginity is something spiritual , and she cannot go around asking men these questions and insisting on this. People make mistakes and if God forgives them, who are we to hold it against them?

She is objectifying men.. she didnt care whether they had repented for it, or what led them to that level in their life.. she was just interested in "the goods".

That's AWFUL.

I want to give you her number so you can complain to her also.. or is it just men you attack!!!!!!!

EXCUSE ME??? WHAT KIND OF PERSON ARE YOU AND WHAT WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN? DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT MEN, WHO THINK THEY ARE SO HIGH AND MIGHTY ONLY LOOK FOR GIRLS WHO ARE VIRGINS?? WHY SHOULD A WOMAN NOT ASK FOR THE SAME?? >:( >:( >:( OR ARE WE JUST EXPECTED TO BE VIRGINS WHILE MEN (WITH THEIR GOD-ORDAINED POWER TO BE AS SEXUALLY ACTIVE AS THEY PLEASE) CAN SLEEP AROUND WITH WHOMEVER THEY WANT AND EXPECT TO FIND A SPOUSE EASILY?? I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH HER. ALL THE MEN I KNOW WON'T CLAIM THAT BECAUSE A GIRL ISN'T A VIRGIN SHE JUST MADE A MISTAKE!!!! NO MAN WILL EVER SAY THAT. THEY WANT THE VIRGIN >:( >:( >:(

Can you please kindly stop this "man"/"woman" thing. What applies to one, applies to the other.

I don't think its right a man INSISTING to marry a virgin.. and having this a "search criteria".. and obviously that applies to a woman also.

Why are you mad at me for now?? What on earth did I say wrong now??

Do you have to be so abusive in your posts... im all for dialogue and building understanding.. I'm happy to elaborate, learn and listen to others.. but your tone is really attacking.

For the sake of everyone, so no one here leaves without any spiritual guidance, PLEASE DO NOT THINK that what Godlovesme said is in ANYWAY spiritual or correct.

When you start on insisting that your spouse is a virgin, you are objectifying them.

Its total hypocrisy also.

This is not Christian. I didn't do a survey and find out what men want, what women want.. etc - and I do not care. You should be firstly concerned with your own sins, and secondly, with their spiritual caliber - which means that if they've repented for anything, you shouldn't hold it against them.

If Fr. Peter will not say that this attitude is wrong, then I will. I condemn it, and this is no longer "opinion" - its what the Church teaches.

Wait, I agree with Godlovesme. Just because God forgives us doesn't mean there aren't consequences on earth for our actions.

A bad reputation doesn't leave a person, even after repentance. If a guy or girl lose their virginity, they shouldn't expect to be treated the same as those that lived a pure and holy life.

When you start on insisting that your spouse is a virgin, you are objectifying them.

I don't agree with that. Virginity isn't a characteristic in a person (like having red hair); it's a treasure. It turns into an action. Wanting a spouse that doesn't smoke is not objectifying them. It's called choosing wisely. That's exactly what Godlovesme is doing.

Zoxsasi, if you're going to respond to my post, then I ask for you to please be nice with me-- like I am with you. Name calling is not necessary.

[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130827#msg130827 date=1297894649]Wait, I agree with Godlovesme. Just because God forgives us doesn't mean there aren't consequences on earth for our actions.

So you too insist on marrying a virgin?

A bad reputation doesn't leave a person, even after repentance. If a guy or girl lose their virginity, they shouldn't expect to be treated the same as those that lived a pure and holy life.

OK TITL,

This is why i'm glad the thread is open - because now it will start to be fruitful. I will let Fr. Peter answer this.

When you start on insisting that your spouse is a virgin, you are objectifying them.

I don't agree with that. Virginity isn't a characteristic in a person (like having red hair); it's a treasure. It turns into an action. Wanting a spouse that doesn't smoke is not objectifying them. It's called choosing wisely. That's exactly what Godlovesme is doing.

OK.. i will let fr. Peter respond to this. I get your point. I really do.

[quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130836#msg130836 date=1297895405]Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.

St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.

That's strange...

Let's get this straight - Saint Paul oversaw the execution of Saint Steven. You agree? And you are saying that in the eyes of the People, he is still a murderer?

Then why did the Apostles & Disciples accept him as one of them?

Why didn't they go off and tell him: "We don't care if Jesus Christ appeared to you. We don't care for your repentance.. you're a murderer!!".

But that didn't happen. On the contrary, he actually became a leader amongst them.

If we treat sinners as if they are sinners, then our faith is pointless. Its absolutely pointless. Our religion is pointless.

But I REALLY appreciate your honesty.. because it raises a very important subject. How we treat others. and this is in the Bible. God knew that we would answer like this. HE KNEW!

He even gave us the story of the Prodigal son's brother who had a hard time accepting his brother's repentance. He still saw the dead/prodigal and sinful nature. God the Father didn't.

The workers in the Vineyard, who toiled from the morning to the evening, they could not understand how the workers of the 11th hour were given the SAME wages as them who had been in the field all day.

Not only that, but God wants you to accept them. God wants YOU to accept others after their repentance.

Jews were not allowed to go and visit gentiles.. nor enter their houses - you agree?? So, one day, Saint peter had a dream: He sees a vision of God offering him a sheet of animals on it. He tells Peter: "Peter, kill.. take and eat."

Peter says "I cannot eat - anything unclean Lord!"

This happens 3 times.. to which the Lord answers him: "Whatever the Lord has made clean DO NOT CALL COMMON".

He then ends up being called to a Gentile's home in order to baptise them. Right?

He's stuck.. how can he enter?? But then it dawns on him: God's eternal words: "Whatever I have made clean, DO NOT CALL COMMON".

Have we not been made clean IN BAPTISM?? Our repentance and confession is considered like a second baptism! The tears of our repentance is the water of this 2nd baptism. How important is this?

Ultimately, we stand justified and clean before the Lord. Yet what does God tell you : YOU( !!!) TITL_ you! THe People of His Church.. what is HE TELLING YOU:

He says to TITL: "TITL, whatever I have made clean, DO NOT CALL COMMON".

So, when you see someone who has been baptised and has repented, Do not call them common. In fact, TREAT THEM as if they are clean.

If we cannot do this, our faith is pointless. OUR BIBLES ARE POINTLESS.

You are wasting your time.

So, there is no such thing as saying that we are all members of the body of Christ, and then say "Your repentance is only good for your spiritual life". Because all who are baptised are part of our lives. When they repent, we ought to rejoice in that. Not treat them as if their repentance was ONLY good for their spiritual lives.

On the contrary - we pray and say "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us".

How on earth does this apply?? What kind of spiritual lives and spirituality is the Church teaching if we cannot do this??

What have you gained if you love those who love you, TITL? So you want to marry someone who is a virgin because you are a virgin, regardless if they have repented or not?

What have you done differently than muslims?

Where is the word of God telling you: "THEY ARE CLEAN!! I've MADE THEM CLEAN"? Why isn't this resonating in our hearts???? What is the problem?

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130837#msg130837 date=1297895469][quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130836#msg130836 date=1297895405]Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.

St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.

Thanks TITL for your response. I appreciate your honesty at least.

Does anyone else here agree with this?

Once you have repented and confessed and received the Absolution, God will no longer hold the sins you have committed against you.

People though, will undoubtedly not be as forgiving.

Zoxsasi, you know how it is in the Coptic Church and Egyptian society in general - people are endlessly poking into other people's affairs and gossiping left, right and centre. So even after repentance they will still deal differently with you, talk about you behind your back and all the rest of it.

As for the whole "ask her if she is a virgin" spiel, again thanks to the kind of Egyptian society we live in, I'm fairly certain that you'd know if the girl was a virgin or not just by what everyone will be saying about her. As I said, Egyptians like to chat.

And in no way am I condoning this kind of behaviour - it is just an unfortunate habit people have.

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130837#msg130837 date=1297895469][quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130836#msg130836 date=1297895405]Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.

St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.

Thanks TITL for your response. I appreciate your honesty at least.

Does anyone else here agree with this?

as an extension to what TITL said,Sins are sins. repentance is there and they are forgiven. but the consequence of those sins can't be "undone." A prostitute deals with her reputation but what if she also gets pregnant at a point of time....does her repentance undo that?!

[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130843#msg130843 date=1297897664][quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130837#msg130837 date=1297895469][quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130836#msg130836 date=1297895405]Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.

St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.

Thanks TITL for your response. I appreciate your honesty at least.

Does anyone else here agree with this?

as an extension to what TITL said,Sins are sins. repentance is there and they are forgiven. but the consequence of those sins can't be "undone." A prostitute deals with her reputation but what if she also gets pregnant at a point of time....does her repentance undo that?!

And as an extension of what Mina's saying, if a person is not a virgin and has picked up an STD because of this fact, does repentance undo that?

[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10674.msg130843#msg130843 date=1297897664][quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130837#msg130837 date=1297895469][quote author=TITL link=topic=10674.msg130836#msg130836 date=1297895405]Repentance is only good for your spiritual life, but if you were a prostitute, you still are in the eyes of people. Nothing will change that- not even repentance.

St. Moses the Strong and St. Paul are still a murderers.

Thanks TITL for your response. I appreciate your honesty at least.

Does anyone else here agree with this?

as an extension to what TITL said,Sins are sins. repentance is there and they are forgiven. but the consequence of those sins can't be "undone." A prostitute deals with her reputation but what if she also gets pregnant at a point of time....does her repentance undo that?!

She could also get AIDS, or STD's.

Sin has 2 effects: the physical consequences, and the spiritual consequences.

Repentance wipes out the spiritual. And part of this "cleansing" is that we are PART of God's work. We take part in the act of His Cleansing us: i.e that we rejoice WITH THE ANGELS in the repentance of a prostitute, and she is NO LONGER a prostitute. I CANNOT call her a prostitute after her repentance!!

I CANNOT.

But the consequences of her sinful past has had an affect on her health... that is undooable. Repentance doesn't bring a murderer's victim's back to life again. It brings him back to life.

God accepts us with our sins and forgives us for our sins - we ought to have the SAME compassion on others and the same forgiveness. What you hold against your brother, I'm sure somewhere in the Bible, it will be held also against you.

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10674.msg130845#msg130845 date=1297898183]She could also get AIDS, or STD's.

Sin has 2 effects: the physical consequences, and the spiritual consequences.

Repentance wipes out the spiritual. And part of this "cleansing" is that we are PART of God's work. We take part in the act of His Cleansing us, that we rejoice in the repentance of a prostitute, and she is NO LONGER a prostitute. I CANNOT call her a prostitute after her repentance!!

I CANNOT.

But the consequences of her sinful past has had an affect on her health... that is undooable. Repentance doesn't bring a murderer's victim's back to life again. It brings him back to life.

God accepts us with our sins and forgives us for our sins - we ought to have the SAME compassion on others and the same forgiveness. What you hold against your brother, I'm sure somewhere in the Bible, it will be held also against you.

YES!!!...you are right. but we, as humans, have the freewill to choose them with those consequences or not. when does the Church and the Bible allow divorce? mainly only when one spouse commits adultery. the other spouse have the right to get a divorce from the sinful spouse and be able to get married latter. he or she has the right to divorce but they are not forced to.....they are the ones who choose.

If we still see a person, after their baptism AND repentance as a prostitute, then we are the ones living in our sinful nature. The other person is living in God's grace. If we CANNOT see them as "clean" - and accept them as if they are "CLEAN" - in every sense, then its hypocrisy.

That's totally unChristian.

But all this calls for God's Grace. There's a story in the Bible of a prophet whom God told to marry a Prostitute!!!!!

It was to show how God accepts us to be His bride despite our sins, despite our filthiness.. how He has cleansed us and accepted us.

YES!!!...you are right. but we, as humans, have the freewill to choose them with those consequences or not. when does the Church and the Bible allow divorce? mainly only when one spouse commits adultery. the other spouse have the right to get a divorce from the sinful spouse and be able to get married latter. he or she has the right to divorce but they are not forced to.....they are the ones who choose.

Yes, that's right mina. If you are talking about marriage - then you have a right to accept/reject a woman if she has AIDS or not.

But if she has repented, and been baptised, YOU CANNOT , you have no right to see her UNCLEAN. The Church has no right to see anyone as unclean AFTER they've repented.

This is a worry.

I remember in our Church, someone there caused me a great deal of harm. But he was well known for being far from the Church. After many years, he came back to the Church.. and I was tremendously glad to see him there. However, what upset me was the way he was treated.

People saw the old man's reputation... not his revival. Not his repentance.. not his need to be accepted again as if he's done nothing wrong.. even if i forgave him, people in the Church still were scared of him.

This is unChristian of them.

What are we doing in the Church other than repenting for our sins and welcoming those who have repented for theirs??? What else are we doing?

Saint Peter EVEN had to explain to his own members WHY he went to visit a gentile.. how could he go in to their homes??

You too have to explain to your congregation: WHATEVER GOD HAS MADE CLEAN, DO NOT CALL COMMON/UNCLEAN