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Look at his Per lol. Look at his turnovers ratio. It's terrible. No where near number 1 option

Have you turned into a stat geek now? Here's a simple stat for you. If you score more points then the other team you win. Harden scores alot of points. He gets alot of rebounds, he also gets a lot of assists because he is an impact player. Since YOU'RE bringing up his per, then be fair about it. Use last years stats along with this years. I mean, why would you use a handful of games as your main argument? To me that seems pretty pointless.

As of right now, nothing out of the norm has happened with him. It was common sense that his efficiency would go down a bit once he was out on his own as a #1 option. Besides I'm sure it will go up from where he's at in the "handful" of games he has played. Time will tell. Eventually you'll see that I was right on this.

Have you turned into a stat geek now? Here's a simple stat for you. If you score more points then the other team you win. Harden scores alot of points. He gets alot of rebounds, he also gets a lot of assists because he is an impact player. Since YOU'RE bringing up his per, then be fair about it. Use last years stats along with this years. I mean, why would you use a handful of games as your main argument? To me that seems pretty pointless.

As of right now, nothing out of the norm has happened with him. It was common sense that his efficiency would go down a bit once he was out on his own as a #1 option. Besides I'm sure it will go up from where he's at in the "handful" of games he has played. Time will tell. Eventually you'll see that I was right on this.

Lol at the rivalry between Macc and Rap, it's compelling stuff

In fairness, his PER has dipped some from last year. His effective field goal and true shooting percentages are the lowest since his rookie season, not to mention his usage rate and turnover percentage are the highest in his career. I love James Harden and still think he can be a fringe number 1/elite number 2 but right now he's trending in the wrong direction.

I'm not a big fan of advanced stats. Maybe because I've played sports all my life and I use the eyeball test. You can tell if someone has a huge impact on the game or not.

Harden does everything well. What more do you want out of a player? I mean the guy scored 45 points in a game this year alone this early in the season.

Stats don't tell you the entire story. Think about this. You have a guy like Harden who is capable of dropping 40+, the other team knows this so therefore they are going to spend more time defending that one particular player with doubleteams and different defensive sets. Now lets say a team holds Harden to 15 points and makes him shoot 35%. One would say he wasn't much of a factor, but in reality, if the other team is putting that much effort into defending one person and throwing extra bodies at him, that ultimately leads to other players being wide open since there defender is helping on a double team. So therefore his "impact" on the game was there. Show me the stat that shows something like this? The fact is there isn't one.

So advanced stats are cute and all. I'm not saying they are useless but in reality, the only time advanced stats are really even relevant is when you're comparing to A players to determine who is the better of the two, so therefore people go to advance statistics.

Allen Iverson is a perfect example to all of this. His fg% his entire career was basically below average. Yet people knew when you played against him he was able to make a play anytime he had the ball.

Though like I said, I've played sports my entire life and I use the eye test most of the time, which is why I was saying Harden was a baller when he was a 6th man on the Thunder. You can just tell if a guy can play or not.

Harden may not be a Lebron James or prime Kobe Bryant, but he's still one of the leagues best. I don't need to know somones usage to know that.

I'm not a big fan of advanced stats. Maybe because I've played sports all my life and I use the eyeball test. You can tell if someone has a huge impact on the game or not.

Harden does everything well. What more do you want out of a player? I mean the guy scored 45 points in a game this year alone this early in the season.

Stats don't tell you the entire story. Think about this. You have a guy like Harden who is capable of dropping 40+, the other team knows this so therefore they are going to spend more time defending that one particular player with doubleteams and different defensive sets. Now lets say a team holds Harden to 15 points and makes him shoot 35%. One would say he wasn't much of a factor, but in reality, if the other team is putting that much effort into defending one person and throwing extra bodies at him, that ultimately leads to other players being wide open since there defender is helping on a double team. So therefore his "impact" on the game was there. Show me the stat that shows something like this? The fact is there isn't one.

So advanced stats are cute and all. I'm not saying they are useless but in reality, the only time advanced stats are really even relevant is when you're comparing to A players to determine who is the better of the two, so therefore people go to advance statistics.

Allen Iverson is a perfect example to all of this. His fg% his entire career was basically below average. Yet people knew when you played against him he was able to make a play anytime he had the ball.

Though like I said, I've played sports my entire life and I use the eye test most of the time, which is why I was saying Harden was a baller when he was a 6th man on the Thunder. You can just tell if a guy can play or not.

Harden may not be a Lebron James or prime Kobe Bryant, but he's still one of the leagues best. I don't need to know somones usage to know that.

Lmao Larry Hughes scored 45 his first game in golden state lmao , grow up

Lmao Larry Hughes scored 45 his first game in golden state lmao , grow up

What is your point? Hughes was only a scorer. He wasn't a playmaker like Harden is. Not sure where you're even going with that bringing up Hughes a guy whos entire career consisted of being an above average scorer only, nowhere near elite.

I agree to an extent. Only problem is, like statistics, the eyeball test is also flawed. It's skewed from experiences, biases, prejudices, subjectivity, opinion, etc. It's foolish and insufficient to solely rely on the eyeball test, just like it is to rely solely on stats. I can assure you, I don't merely use statistics. These are coupled with my own eyeball test. The fact of the matter is you need reinforcement for your opinions, and advanced statistics provide a sound basis for an argument. Let me just be honest, on a forum where we comstantly analyze, you're going to need more than just your opinion and what you can see to make a valid point. How can you back up what you're saying? Tangible evidence is a great start to credibility.

Again, I'm not suggesting statistics are infallible. But for me, they help me see what I can't from the eyeball test. Numbers may not tell the whole story, but they never lie. In the 21st century, where everything is about productivity, not using advanced metrics when they're available seems backwards.

Don't look now, but Kevin Martin with the Thunder is shooting a ****ing amazing 69.8 TS%....People still think Westbrook/Durant aren't the reason for Harden's glory??? Oh and BTW Harden's TS (while still good I will add) has dropped to 55.9. His efficiency has dropped off terribly, turning the ball over right and left. Has the same nubmer of TO's as Assists....He will bring it back up a bit, still early, but he is a number 2, not a number 1

I knew you were hiding and waiting for harden to have a few off games before showing your face again... I like how you act like Martin was never a streaky scorer before. And hardens numbers are still pretty Damn good just not godly like the first few games... Not to mention he's leading the NBA in ft attempts over guys like Durante, Dwight, Kobe, lebron. Just don't go missing for 2weeks next time harden drops 40 lol

I agree to an extent. Only problem is, like statistics, the eyeball test is also flawed. It's skewed from experiences, biases, prejudices, subjectivity, opinion, etc. It's foolish and insufficient to solely rely on the eyeball test, just like it is to rely solely on stats. I can assure you, I don't merely use statistics. These are coupled with my own eyeball test. The fact of the matter is you need reinforcement for your opinions, and advanced statistics provide a sound basis for an argument. Let me just be honest, on a forum where we comstantly analyze, you're going to need more than just your opinion and what you can see to make a valid point. How can you back up what you're saying? Tangible evidence is a great start to credibility.

Again, I'm not suggesting statistics are infallible. But for me, they help me see what I can't from the eyeball test. Numbers may not tell the whole story, but they never lie. In the 21st century, where everything is about productivity, not using advanced metrics when they're available seems backwards.

I hear what you're saying and I'm not saying stats are useless, it just seems like sometimes people don't use the eyeball test at all. It's like they go to the box score and base their opinion entirely out of that. My point is that stats don't paint the entire picture of what a player is entirely about. Like you said, you need both the eye test and stats to truly judge a guy.

Watching Harden you can see he's a crafty player. He can score from anywhere on the court, shoot the 3 ball, pass...ect. He's an all around player, I think he gets underrated because he's not a high flyer. You don't see him posterizing anyone so people use that against him I think. Plus all the advanced stats are in his favor if you look at his entire career. This season just started so I don't see things being as low as they are right now.

Though I'm done talking about it for now. I'll let his play do the talking. I just called it last year when he was on the bench.

In other news Harden drops 30 in the W while shooting 50%. For a guy who isn't a #1 option he sure gets lucky alot......

I knew you were hiding and waiting for harden to have a few off games before showing your face again... I like how you act like Martin was never a streaky scorer before. And hardens numbers are still pretty Damn good just not godly like the first few games... Not to mention he's leading the NBA in ft attempts over guys like Durante, Dwight, Kobe, lebron. Just don't go missing for 2weeks next time harden drops 40 lol

A few bad games? He had 5 games in a row where his shooting was below 45% (most below 40%) and averaged 5 turnovers a game. Harden can score, flat out. I get that. But so can Monta Ellis. The thing Harden has over Monta is he's much more efficient. Now when that efficiency goes out the window and he's shooting like *** and turning the ball over....nothing seperates the two besides Ellis getting more assists. It's not all about scoring, ESPECIALLY with a number 1 option. It's about leading a team, which Harden is trying very hard to do, he's just not a number 1 option to do that. He's a very good number 2 though

And as for Martin...dude is getting it done, and being very efficient. It doesn't go with his career (being efficient) so I do expect it to fall off, but it also goes to show how much Westbrook and Durant do to take the attention away from others.

Originally Posted by heimdog8

I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

I'm not a big fan of advanced stats. Maybe because I've played sports all my life and I use the eyeball test. You can tell if someone has a huge impact on the game or not.

Harden does everything well. What more do you want out of a player? I mean the guy scored 45 points in a game this year alone this early in the season.
Stats don't tell you the entire story. Think about this. You have a guy like Harden who is capable of dropping 40+, the other team knows this so therefore they are going to spend more time defending that one particular player with doubleteams and different defensive sets. Now lets say a team holds Harden to 15 points and makes him shoot 35%. One would say he wasn't much of a factor, but in reality, if the other team is putting that much effort into defending one person and throwing extra bodies at him, that ultimately leads to other players being wide open since there defender is helping on a double team. So therefore his "impact" on the game was there. Show me the stat that shows something like this? The fact is there isn't one.

So advanced stats are cute and all. I'm not saying they are useless but in reality, the only time advanced stats are really even relevant is when you're comparing to A players to determine who is the better of the two, so therefore people go to advance statistics.

Allen Iverson is a perfect example to all of this. His fg% his entire career was basically below average. Yet people knew when you played against him he was able to make a play anytime he had the ball.

Though like I said, I've played sports my entire life and I use the eye test most of the time, which is why I was saying Harden was a baller when he was a 6th man on the Thunder. You can just tell if a guy can play or not.

Harden may not be a Lebron James or prime Kobe Bryant, but he's still one of the leagues best. I don't need to know somones usage to know that.

To the bolded part, see Westbrook and Durant...which is WHY Harden was so damn efficient.

And I like how you say you don't care for advanced stats when you played sports blah blah blah. I've played sports too, my whole life. Harden is a good player, but he is not a max player, nor is he a viable number 1 option. Can he develop into one? Very possible, he is young...but then again if he keeps trying to force it to prove he is, its not going to work. Will he have good games? Hell yea. But at what cost? Harden isn't like Durant, Wade, Kobe, Rose, Westbrook, Dwight, Pierce, (a couple years ago) Anthony, Lebron, Love....you know, number 1 options. He isn't on these players level. He is with the likes of Granger, Gay, Ellis...which is not bad at all, but its not a player to lead you to anything.

Originally Posted by heimdog8

I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

You are still talking about Harden, and pretending like 2 weeks of basketball proves anything?

I will say this...Harden's inefficiency scoring-wise this year have resulted from the three point shot and the three point shot only. It will start falling at a higher rate. He's getting to the rim with ease and high frequency this year, and scoring at as efficient of a rate from close as he ever has. It's the three point shot (and the fact he's taking 6 of them) that is killing him.

You are still talking about Harden, and pretending like 2 weeks of basketball proves anything?

I will say this...Harden's inefficiency scoring-wise this year have resulted from the three point shot and the three point shot only. It will start falling at a higher rate. He's getting to the rim with ease and high frequency this year, and scoring at as efficient of a rate from close as he ever has. It's the three point shot (and the fact he's taking 6 of them) that is killing him.

Hey people were sucking this guys nuts after the first 2 games

While I don't disagree with you on the three point shooting, it's still being forced by him, and he's still missing other shots outside of 3 point shooting as well. He will settle down and be around the 20 point range shooting about 45% from the field, like usual...but that is comparable to Rudy Gay, not Kevin Durant. Rudy Gay is a number 2, with other number 2's in Gasol and Fatboy ZBo.

Originally Posted by heimdog8

I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

I don't think anyone said he'd be Kevin Durant. If they did, well...hmm...

I personally think he has the tools to be better than those guys you compare him to. But I'm willing to be patient. It's an unknown. He could very well be a top 10 player. He could very well be not even close. It's his first year starting. It's his first year as the #1 option. He's still young. We'll see.

Obviously he wasn't as good as he showed the first two games, and I don't think he was as bad as he played in those games after. It's somewhere in between.

I don't think anyone said he'd be Kevin Durant. If they did, well...hmm...

I personally think he has the tools to be better than those guys you compare him to. But I'm willing to be patient. It's an unknown. He could very well be a top 10 player. He could very well be not even close. It's his first year starting. It's his first year as the #1 option. He's still young. We'll see.

Obviously he wasn't as good as he showed the first two games, and I don't think he was as bad as he played in those games after. It's somewhere in between.

I'm saying the guy has a lower ceiling than the elite. He can show at times that maybe he can reach it, but he just can't. He doesn't have the ability to. The reason he was so efficient is because he wouldn't force shots, especially with Durant and Westbrook, he's forcing shots right now and its showing he's also a streaky shooter/player

Originally Posted by heimdog8

I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.