The following exchange be tween former New Jersey Govs. Brendan T. Byrne and Tom Kean took place in a teleconference on Thursday.

Q: Does the California recall election suggest that in New Jersey, where it's currently difficult to implement initiative and referendum, it might become easier for citizens to, say, limit property taxes through initiative and referendum?

BYRNE: The fact that California has had such disastrous consequences from initiative and referendum will mean that other states, including New Jersey, aren't going to be too enthusiastic about running government by referendum. Because what you'd get is people in favor of no taxes and the same people in favor of increased services, which would cause the kind of explosion that resulted in the election we saw last Tuesday. It's an invitation to disaster and hardly an endorsement of the idea.

KEAN: It's hard to argue for California's system, but it doesn't mean you have to be against the idea of initiative and referendum. California's system is so close to direct democracy that it requires few signatures, given the size of California, to get something on the ballot. So every year the ballot is covered with questions the public has to wade through. But you should be able to design an initiative and referendum process that requires more signatures and makes it more difficult to get a question on the ballot, as a safety valve, so that if the public really feels strongly about something, they can express their views through initiative and referendum.

BYRNE: And if it's for less taxes and more spending, so be it?

KEAN: I've always believed the public is more intelligent than legislative bodies.

BYRNE: But that's exactly what you saw in California.

KEAN: What you saw in this election makes a kind of sense. They had a choice. They had a wretched governor who was taking the state down a very bad path, and they decided to make a correction. And they picked, in my opinion, the best of the possible alternatives.

BYRNE: The governor didn't take them down that path, the restrictions they put on him did.

KEAN: That's not true. Gov. Gray Davis is one terrible governor.

BYRNE: I had a phone call telling me somebody on television - Chris Matthews, I think - compared him to me. No personality.

KEAN: Then he's not very intelligent. Davis extorted money from companies and individuals and made a mess out of the state.

BYRNE: The energy crisis in California was evidence of inconsistent desires that resulted in deregulating one aspect of utilities and regulating others, so that the whole concept of supply and demand was completely distorted. And not by the governor, but by the so-called will of the people.

KEAN: The problem in California is that this governor, in facing its energy problems, mortgaged the state's future by signing inflated long-term contracts with suppliers from out of state. And Californians are going to be paying the price for years to come.

BYRNE: Sure, but that's not the governor. That's the way the people wanted it, and it's inconsistent. And that brings up the point that a governor has to have a four-year term in order to work out problems on a long-term basis and not be subjected to the risk that the first unpopular decision he makes will subject him to recall.

KEAN: When was the last governor of California recalled? This was a response to an extreme situation.

BYRNE: This is what you have when you have government by referendum. You have to find someone to blame. By consensus, an unpopular governor takes the blame, and we go on from there. And that brings up the question of how much help he's going to get from President Bush. If a Republican state with a Republican governor gets help, and a Democratic state with a Democratic governor does not, that's the worst of all possible worlds.

KEAN: Certainly getting the economy of the largest state in the country revived is in the interest of all of us. And certainly President Bush will do his best to help in that context. But I must say you are one of the few people I've ever heard defend Gray Davis. He was a terrible governor, and the people of California are happier today than they've been in a long time.

BYRNE: That's the way Californians are. What's the Latin for seize the day? Carpe diem. But if you give California $15 billion, or maybe $20 billion - if Arnold Schwarzenegger repeals that $4 billion automobile tax and asks Bush to pick it up - that's the kind of partisanship that destroys

KEAN: There's no way any president can give that kind of money to any state without the support of the U.S. Congress. But it doesn't mean there aren't other things a president can do to help.

BYRNE: Nobody said that six months ago, Tom.

KEAN: It was very hard to help California while Gray Davis was governor.

BYRNE: Because he was a Democrat.

KEAN: Because he was the worst governor in the country - a fact, by the way, on which both Republicans and Democrats agreed. The idea of initiative and referendum and recall were progressive ideas supported by Woodrow Wilson to bring more direct democracy to the system. California went overboard by making it too easy. But that doesn't mean you should be against the idea. The idea is good. Especially when a state and governor are out of control, as was the case in California.

BYRNE: I think I can unearth some quotes where you characterized referendum as leaving government in the hands of special interests that have the money to promote a referendum and sell it to the people.

KEAN: I've criticized California's initiative and referendum because it's not properly structured. When I was governor, I proposed initiative and referendum for New Jersey, and every single special interest in the state opposed it. Big business, unions, every single lobbyist in the state - people who usually are on opposite sides - came out against it. They didn't want it because it's much easier to control elected politicians than to control the people.

BYRNE: Take a look sometime at what was passed in California.

KEAN: I'm not supporting California's system. But if you look at initiative and referendum as it's practiced in states like Wisconsin, it can be very effective. But it should be structured in a way so that you can implement it - not every year, but in situations when you feel very strongly about something and your elected officials haven't responded.

BYRNE: And if it fails, you can ask George Bush to bail you out.

KEAN: Every governor, including ours, has asked George Bush to bail him out.

Q: A recent letter to the editor in The Star-Ledger branded New Jersey Network a boondoggle and said it was a waste of money. What is your view?

BYRNE: You and I have been great supporters of New Jersey Network, Tom, and I think we continue to see its justification and value to New Jersey.

KEAN: I've supported New Jersey Network since its very beginning. It makes an enormous contribution to New Jersey. If we're going to be proud of our state, we have to have a network that talks about us, and not New York or Pennsylvania.