Just re-read this and wonder if it's stricly true? How many games programmers actually interact with the lower level API's directly? It wouldn't surprise me if much of the API's was hidden behind the chosen game engine? With compiler flags dictating whether OpenGL or DX or whatever is used based on target platform being compiled to?

PS4 has it's own API's based on OpenGL and Direct-X, Microsoft use Direct-X, everyone else uses OpenGL. What is the driving factor for unity to re-write all their routines so they can be compiled against Mantle instead? Why will Ubisoft re-write AnvilNext to support Mantle when it already compiles to every major platform without it?

Like I say, I think it's devisive technology.

What that does show though is the importance of the chosen game engine on the end games performance. And why judging the new consoles on launch titles using old ported engines is fruitless.

Of course it's not irrelevant! It discribes what the GPU is physically capable of, not how devs choose to access those capabilities. Sure they'll (hopefully) be using lower level API's to access those features.

The GPU is capable of doing a lot more, more efficiently than what's permitted via DirectX.

PS4 has it's own API's based on OpenGL and Direct-X, Microsoft use Direct-X, everyone else uses OpenGL. What is the driving factor for unity to re-write all their routines so they can be compiled against Mantle instead? Why will Ubisoft re-write AnvilNext to support Mantle when it already compiles to every major platform without it?

Mantle, presumably, IS the API Sony and Microsoft use to get lower level access to their hardware than is permitted by OpenGL and DirectX. Console developers would be crazy to settle on such a high level of abstraction as is forced by OpenGL and DirectX. Part of the whole point of a console is to fix the platform so you can expose more features and perform functions more efficiently than sending them through high level APIs that were designed to sit on top of giant productivity OSs (e.g. Windows).

The GPU is capable of doing a lot more, more efficiently than what's permitted via DirectX.

Lol, I'm not arguing other wise

Originally Posted by sneezymarble

Mantle, presumably, IS the API Sony and Microsoft use to get lower level access to their hardware than is permitted by OpenGL and DirectX. Console developers would be crazy to settle on such a high level of abstraction as is forced by OpenGL and DirectX.

Key word be 'presumably' - we don't actually know for certain. All MS and Sony can do is give the devs the tools to use. It's up to the devs to choose which tools makes the most sense for them. Sony have already said they have 2 API's low level GNM and higher level GNMX. They have said that GNMX is based (loosly?) on Direct-X for ease of porting.

From the developers POV crossplatform high level common API's, like OpenGL, make more sense. Less work, constistancy of end product across platforms, etc. For first party and platform exclusive games, low level API's make more sense because they are more targeted and the game is not being ported to other platforms.

English speakers are going to see words like componant and assume you're a 12 year old in a basement somewhere fighting the console war, when it's very possible you're an adult computer professional who is just unable to spellcheck because your browser's locale isn't EN.

I speak English and when I saw words misspelled like "component" I just assumed it was spelled wrong and completely understood what he intended to say.

"I think all those developers who are saying, "We don’t want to do a PS3 game," or "It’s really difficult to do it," should shut up and make their games. If you have time to complain about it, then you should be spending your time working on getting the most from the hardware."

They promised alot of Ps3, what they didnt held up for.......they do same same with PS4...Mostly lies and hype to get you'r money...

Sony is a factory you shouldnt trust..

The ps3 wasn't hype but it was difficult to program for(coding to the metal lol), only a few Dev( who had close tie with Sony)had the resource to do it, everyone else chose DirectX first. Lol we still don't know anything about mantle yet it going to be Jesus of api, it could be a $#@! to work with and more time consuming compare to DX for all we know. And don't forget mantle sit on top of a driver that going to be develop by...AMD lmao.

If mantle don't take off within 2-3 years and with at least 40% dev support...OH BOY.
Man I can't wait till December when the benchmarks rolls out for mantle, let see that performance first!

Love watching people compare a next gen console to a "high end PC" that they couldn't afford anyway.

And if you believe the console launch titles running at 720p or 30fps is going to be the next gen cap trend when some games on current gen today already run 1080p @60fps ....then you live in a dream world.

Like I said...Sony is trying to hype the console to max...Just like they did with Ps3 before release...

This post, btw good luck with running a game @4k 60fps with your PC monitor or 1080p TV especially when most gamers have trouble getting 40fps @1440p with current gen games on their 27inch monitor
I'm sure you have no problems whatsoever but a high majority of PC owners barely run at 1080p let alone 4k

If you dial the eyecandy down enough any game can run at 60fps with 1080p . If you up the eyecandy add so AA and AF the same game will look much better at 720p and still run at 60fps. 1080 isnt all that , Im wondering why some people are so obsessed with it

I gamed on a PC for 12 years and that was aways how i saw it , im no expert on the next gen hardware but i know waht will and wont look good onscreen

It's not.
Sony has it's own Api although the final commands should be quite similar to what Mantle has due to sharing GCN architecture.

Exactly, OpenGL is available but I'm assuming it's only there for the indie developers who don't need the speed requirements that bigger titles have.

We also know that X1 uses a DX based driver called Mono that operates much lower level than standard Direct X. Just like how Ps3 and 360 today use much lower end varieties, it's just the console advantage.

The system features two API: a low-level API that Norden said was "pretty much directly to the hardware" and a "Wrapper" API that is "very similar" to PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Vita graphics libraries.

The wrapper API is opengl, just like it was on the PS3 (open gl es from memory?)

PS4 isn't old TECHNOLOGY, but computing power-wise.... it's still old hat in the PC world. It's biggest advantage is the fixed hardware specs..... but it still is a mid-range PC and no amount of lipstick is gonna change that.

PS4 isn't old TECHNOLOGY, but computing power-wise.... it's still old hat in the PC world. It's biggest advantage is the fixed hardware specs..... but it still is a mid-range PC and no amount of lipstick is gonna change that.

Despite that, I prefer console gaming over PC gaming.

This is why I posted what it is. It's not lipstick and its not just technology it has techonolgy that doesn't exist in PC's.

It's new technology that potentaly set up in a revoluntary way. It has a feature set that no PC has access to. As stated in this thread mantle may be closest thing that is coming out in the PC space that shows the potential of lower wrappers for PC's. AMD claims that their 5 tflop flagship GPU will smoke Nvidia's GPU that has a 1tflop advantage when using mantal. Thats not just overcoming a whole 1 tflop in brute force but exceeding it by some margin. Now this is just one one wrapper pointing at one part of the PC (it is however one of the single most important factors in games).

We haven't got benches or even proof in the real world but in the PC space they are saying that they are able to increase the performance of the GPU by much more than 20% as 1tflop is 20 percent of 5. Now the wording they are using is that they are beating the Nvidia GPU by a big factor so that 20% must be a conservative number.

So this will mean that with mantel and AMD GPU that mid range pc's will suddenly have perfomance boosts putting them closer to what you would expect for higher range pc's just by adding a low level wrapper.

Right so this is just talking of one thing that the PS4 will have a low level wrapper for its AMD GPU.

Now you add on top hUMA which again increasses the performance of both GPU, CPU and componants as comunications between chips (not just CPU and GPU) are increased by a wide margin especally as its a APU.

Then you add in the volatile tags, the increased bandwidth between CPU and GPU the huge resource of memory. And the fact that the PS4 GPU has huge amount of customisation over and beyond even top level GPU's for the purpose of dealing with parallel floating point types of operations and your looking at a lot of cutting edge technology and software that can leverage this to make the whole a factor beyond a sum of its parts.

let me quote you this on just a possible implication of the graphics side that hUMA can bring to the party:

As well as being useful for GPGPU programming, this may also find use in the GPU's traditional domain: graphics. Normally, 3D programs have to use lots of relatively small textures to apply textures to their 3D models. When the GPU has access to demand paging, it becomes practical to use single large textures—larger than will even fit into the GPU's memory—loading the portions of the texture on an as-needed basis. id Software devised a similar technique using existing hardware for Enemy Territory: Quake Wars and called it MegaTexture. With hUMA, developers will get MegaTexture-like functionality built-in.

While it can work as a PC due to its componants, it is also very very different to the PC it is leveraging techonolgy that does not exist in your average PC and on top of that it has software that PC does not have access to due to this techonology to.

Look at Beyond 2 Souls as an example of what is possible on PS3. Large parts of this are possible due to the Cell and the software support from Sony. This processor used for parallel processing of floating point is a monster (single percision). Now this was a 216 gflop machine. While not having access to the full power of the GPU in certain frames when the GPU is doing inifficient GPU processes like shadow maps then sofware/devs will have access to a large part of 1.86 tflops.

Devs who are used to be working on Cell can take their knowledge and the code/libaries that is only available to them and excute things they have learned using parallel single percision programing to a device which has many times the power of the Cell with a bigger bandwidth and vastly increased ram.

Then you have the fact that they can now queue 64 of these tasks to take advantage of this power!

What you have with PS4 is very clever it is a PC but at the same time it is in some ways an evolution of the PS3. It still has its PPU (the jaguars) it still has its GPU and SPU's (the AMD GPU/GPGPU).

Sony has the best graphics / physics libs out there they had to create them from scratch and they can use them on the new console with some modfications.

And its not me talking bull$#@! you only have to look at the Dark Sorcerer to see that unoptimised code (from PS3) is running the best character graphical modeling I have ever seen in a real time demo. They say that this demo is sometimes running at 90fps at times. Now this shows just how good Sony's code is how efficeint it is because they can get that type of performance from an engine built for the PS3 and port it over with some tweaks to leverage the power of the PS4 (and how much better might it be if it actually elveraged its full power thats a scary thought).

It is not lipstick there are several huge advantages from a technelogical and software standpoint the PS4 has over the mid range PC's and will allow it to perform beyond what medium range PC's are capable of. Whilest some of the PS4 will perform similarly to mid range in other areas (resolution for example).

I wish you guys would stop throwing the word HUMA around, because it doesn't have that tech in it. The XBO one has a closer setup to HUMA than the PS4 does, and even then I struggle to associate the word with it.

Can we just say that these console have cache coherent memory access to shared memory. Snooping the CPU cache to make sure your memory read is correct is not the same as passing a memory pointer between CPU and GPU.

The PS4 has to tag this memory and treat it in special ways, the idea of HUMA is there are no boundaries like that.

Posting Permissions

PlayStation Universe

Copyright 2006-2014 7578768 Canada Inc. All Right Reserved.

Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express written
permission of Abstract Holdings International Ltd. prohibited.Use of this site is governed
by our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.