i do have one small concern about this as a form, in the same way as - i suppose - i have over haiku: people might use the syllabic count of the form simpy to fit something into that's lacking in poetic-ness or flies in direct disregard except for count. what, specifically, would you say identifes the poetic quality we should look for in American Sentences and is it (as usual) mostly just about our own reactions/interpretations?

i tried one, but whether or not it's a poem i honestly wouldn't like to say.

i do have one small concern about this as a form, in the same way as - i suppose - i have over haiku: people might use the syllabic count of the form simpy to fit something into that's lacking in poetic-ness or flies in direct disregard except for count. what, specifically, would you say identifes the poetic quality we should look for in American Sentences and is it (as usual) mostly just about our own reactions/interpretations?

i tried one, but whether or not it's a poem i honestly wouldn't like to say.

now having just read angie's 1-30, that works as poetry for me.

Thanks.

For me, it helps to think of it as haiku, as having similar elements beyond the syllable count. But like any form, the trick is to transcend the form so that what the reader takes away from it is a poem and not a form. That's always the hard part!

__________________I will plant my hands in the garden
I will grow I know I know I know
and swallows will lay eggs
in the hollow of my ink-stained hands.
~Forugh Farrokhzad

For me, it helps to think of it as haiku, as having similar elements beyond the syllable count. But like any form, the trick is to transcend the form so that what the reader takes away from it is a poem and not a form. That's always the hard part!

that's the thing, angie - when i was first introduced to haiku, i was told that it could range from your 5-7-5 s.c, to 2-3-2 beats per line, or almost any variant so long as the s.c or b.c remained constant over the whole thing - and this included the one long line, like an exhalation of breath. what i'm trying to get at here, clumsily, is 'is this a sort of bastardised haiku - inasmuch as count and presentation over one line but without the other parameters a ku would demand?' was Kerouac just extrapolating in a cheaty kind of way? can i ask such questions?

that's the thing, angie - when i was first introduced to haiku, i was told that it could range from your 5-7-5 s.c, to 2-3-2 beats per line, or almost any variant so long as the s.c or b.c remained constant over the whole thing - and this included the one long line, like an exhalation of breath. what i'm trying to get at here, clumsily, is 'is this a sort of bastardised haiku - inasmuch as count and presentation over one line but without the other parameters a ku would demand?' was Kerouac just extrapolating in a cheaty kind of way? can i ask such questions?

I did a little bit of reading (just a little), but the sense I got is that Ginsberg was trying to find an American counterpart to the haiku which he thought (wisely imho) doesn't work in English. So on the one hand he wanted to condense (and if you think of what he usually wrote--the big long Whitmanesque poems--this is big-time condensing for him). On the other hand when you have 17 syllables coming at you in one line, it *is* like a big rush of breath. So maybe it is a sort of bastardized haiku, but one that is well suited to American idioms and vernacular, I think. If that makes sense.

__________________I will plant my hands in the garden
I will grow I know I know I know
and swallows will lay eggs
in the hollow of my ink-stained hands.
~Forugh Farrokhzad

I did a little bit of reading (just a little), but the sense I got is that Ginsberg was trying to find an American counterpart to the haiku which he thought (wisely imho) doesn't work in English. So on the one hand he wanted to condense (and if you think of what he usually wrote--the big long Whitmanesque poems--this is big-time condensing for him). On the other hand when you have 17 syllables coming at you in one line, it *is* like a big rush of breath. So maybe it is a sort of bastardized haiku, but one that is well suited to American idioms and vernacular, I think. If that makes sense.

thankyou! yes, that makes perfect sense and now i have a grasp of the concept if it's as you believe. see? i just needed someone explaining it to me in simple terms

__________________
Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slutAnnie submits

Oh, hey, bogus (everybody else can ignore this post which, since this is my thread should be OK to drop in here), I've been meaning to ask you if you know the work of Franz von Stuck. His house, near Munich (Villa Stuck) is a museum. There's a fairly significant exhibition of his work here in Seattle right now (the curator of the Frye Art Museum here used to be curator at the Villa Stuck), and I really enjoyed the exhibit. Art Nouveau/Secession stuff--quite stylized, lots of gold leaf, reminds me a bit of Klimt, and his darker stuff of Böcklin.

You're the only artist I know, and that only through the coincidence of social media. This work quite resonated with me and I was curious what you thought about it, if you'd seen it.

No matter if you've not.

I know his work and have seen some of it, not as much as I would like. In my younger more ideological days when white cuboids where the height of artistic integrity I would have dismissed him out of hand as a decadent symbolist, a decorator of bourgeois lounges, a poor man's Gustav Klimt. However, time and age has cured me and now I see art like music. It's valid to enjoy work across the entire spectrum. I still see much of his work as decadent but as I've grown older, I've grown to enjoy decadence. Sensuality is so utterly decadent and sexy, how could not someone of my age not get a warm sensation from it? He is definitely not up to the skills and techniques and vision of Klimt. He also failed to develop when artists like Schiele and Kokoschka moved the game on. For me he is in the chasing pack of artists of the time but I do enjoy him. Maybe my change of heart could be something to do with the zeitgeist (over here) because if you look at the work of artists like Iris van Dongen and Juul Kraijer, decadence and symbolism are definitely back in vogue.

Is it considered good form in Europe to pinch the beer of your date's father? I would think that might generate some (slight, at least) ill will.

As for her boyfriend's culture, you can (and I assume are) going to "beat" it into him.

I know, I know. Bad pun.

The man's walking a tight line. I visited him the other week (my daughter's in Japan for a year) and the apartment was a dump and he was out of beer so I took him out for a beer. He chose the dearest beer in the house, Westmal Tripel at €7,50 500ml. I asked him since when had he been drinking Westmal Tripel, Heineken at €4,00 500ml used to be his normal poison. He said ever since I said it was my bill tonight. I think our relationship is getting too familiar. Literally Beating culture into him doesn't always seem a bad idea!

What I should have thought about before I decided to beat culture into him, was my books disappearing. I guess I only have myself to blame!

__________________
Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slutAnnie submits

i do have one small concern about this as a form, in the same way as - i suppose - i have over haiku: people might use the syllabic count of the form simply to fit something into that's lacking in poeticness or flies in direct disregard except for count. what, specifically, would you say identifes the poetic quality we should look for in American Sentences and is it (as usual) mostly just about our own reactions/interpretations?

The same problem as all forms, all free verse. The sentence has to be a poem.

And we haven't had a lot of success defining that.

So think of it as a form that a lot of folks write a lot of dreck in (including, of course, me), and that occasionally someone writes something quite brilliant in.

Poetry is difficult. Form seems to sometimes make it easy, but it's not.

In the pocket of an old raincoat, I found a handful of regrets
.
.
as opposed to dry dog biscuits which is more usually the norm!

__________________
Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slutAnnie submits

__________________
Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slutAnnie submits