A look at the Jay Street rowhouses

Crisafulli Associates has established a webpage for the five rowhouses it is planning to build on Jay Street, in Albany’s Center Square neighborhood.

The site includes floor plans for the houses, which apparently start at $349,000.

The houses are planned for an empty lot next to the Knickerbocker apartments. Designed by On Point Building Design in Waterford, the rowhouses are a rare (at least in the Capital Region) urban in-fill project.

I think that someone will pay the price to be in this location. I also agree that the facade can not be any more plain except if it had vinyl siding (yuck). I think that the garage space (although I only see one car garage so must be tandem) and yard space are also key to the desirability of the rowhouses. If you can build cheap and sell, then it does not promote the need for the builder to be creative with the project. Spec houses are almost always plain jane. They think they appeal to the masses. More like massively unappealing except for location for some.

Have always been curious – when does a townhouse become a rowhouse and a rowhouse become a townhouse.

I’ve kind of concluded that to the snob it is a townhouse and to the non-snob it is a rowhouse. However I’m open to a different thought on the matter. I realize many people interchange “revitalization” and “gentrification” even though they are significantly different terms. Given the price range I can only conclude these “rowhouses” represent “gentrification”. So, since theses rowhouses are close to center square and represent “gentrification” should we call them townhouses?

#6, these aren’t near Center Square, they are in Center Square. And I fail to see how these could possibly amount to ‘gentrification’ of the neighborhood, which was gentrified long ago. The price range is also in line with most of the neighborhood, which has the second highest overall property values in Albany.

In regard to Sysonby’s comment, these are, in fact, exactly what Albany needs. Even more, they are what Center Square needs.

As I understand it Jay street is the southern border of the Center Square neighborhood. I simply didn’t know which side of Jay street the rowhouses were located on: the Center Square side or the otherside. I should have remembered how sensitive Albany residents are to there address especially if it is the trendy, prestigious Center Square neighborhood.

Glad to hear that Center Square is gentrified and all of the bumbs and riff-raff have been removed. Hopefully things have been refined and crime has been eliminated.

Would be curious as to your expert opinion in how it was determined Center Square “has the second highest overall property values in Albany”…..is it based on market value, assessed value, individual properties, total for properties in the neighborhood, etc..just some facts would be nice!!….also should these 5 houses be called “rowhouses” as Chris did??

#7, Market value of individual properties. A quick look at any real estate listing will show you that. I know it is often disparaged, but Zillow actually provides a pretty good overview of this. And you can search by neighborhood, too, which is neat.

Of course the bums and riff-raff are still around. After all, Center Square/Hudson Park is right in between Arbor Hill and the South End. You only need to cross Washington or Madison Avenues to be in the ghetto. (In fact, that’s a very commonly cited problem of living in Albany.)

The buildings themselves are on the Center Square side of Jay Street, next to the Knickerbocker Apartment building. The developer actually had to fight the Center Square Neighborhood Association during the first stages of development in order to be allowed to include garages in the plan. (I believe Chris had a blog post a while ago about this.) The buildings aren’t the prettiest, but they’d fit well with the neighborhood, which has its share of ugly buildings which feature the garage much more prominently than these (Chestnut and Dove, and Lancaster and Lark are two places to find examples).

As far as townhouse vs. rowhouse is concerned, I always hear the neighborhood’s architecture referred to as ‘brownstone rowhouses’. Like you, this always confuses me and I am eagerly awaiting a more official answer.

You’re still missing Center Square – I think most conservatively, Center Square runs north from Madison Ave. to Washington Ave, and west from S. Swan St. to Lark St. Some would argue it starts somewhere South of Madison (Jefferson, Elm…) and some would argue that it continues West along the park to Englewood(?).

As regards townhouses and row houses, the difference in terms lies in the initial construction. A row house is a town house built in conjunction with other town houses of the same style. Making these new homes row houses and townhouses.

Unfortunately, #11, the official boundary of Center Square is different. I would think of it the same way: Willet to Swan and Washington to Madison. It’s actually from Spring to Jay and then Swan to Lark, with the portion of Lancaster between Lark and Willet. I’ve always thought this boundary was kind of weird, especially since it well…isn’t a square. If you walk from Jay to Hamilton, you don’t feel as if you’ve left the neighborhood.

@where’s the money,
I went with rowhouses because that’s what the developer is calling them, although, as DT points out, townhouse would work just as well. But also, rowhouse for some reason sounds more urban to me and seems to apply better to an infill project.

When you say “official” boundaries, what do you mean? I don’t believe that the city has any role in determining neighborhood boundaries. As far as I know, they are mostly the creation of residents and real estate brokers.

Guess the Center Square neighborhood boundries vary depending on who you talk to.

Guess the definition of rowhouse vs. townhouse depends on who you talk to.

Guess the overall value of a neighborhood (a neighborhood whose boundries lack any consistent definition) can be determined by looking at a couple of real estate listings and magically a value for the entire undefined neighborhood can be arrived at. This is then somehow deemed the 2nd highest overall property values in the city because someone says so.

And of course, when I said #12, I meant #14. Wow, twice in one post. Awesome.

And to #15, if I’m so wrong about the values of the properties in the neighborhood, why not look them up yourself and correct me? Wouldn’t it at least beat being condescending? I’d gladly admit to being wrong about this, but a cursory glance around Zillow seems to confirm my statement. Neighborhoods like this are often very overpriced in America, because they are not being built anymore. There are fewer of them, and their prices tend to reflect that. So it’s not like I’m making some far-fetched claim. But again, if I’m wrong, please prove it.

As far as townhouse vs. rowhouse, you seem to be correct in that it varies depending on who you talk to. Here are some links:

We actually decided to change the name of the project to Townhouses last week but a website uploading error on Monday reverted it back to rowhouses. Just our luck, the day before Chris posted this entry. Everything I have researched suggests that rowhouse/townhouse is one in the same.

Although other homes right on Jay Street may not have sold for this price if you look at Center Square on the whole you will see that they have sold in this range and much higher nd without off-street parking and a good size backyard. New construction can’t compete with the pricing of some of the existing homes in Center Square but if I could sell them for $225,000 I would.

Unfortunately the city doesn’t offer tax incentives at this time for in-fill projects, believe me I have pursued it. It’s too bad because I think it is exactly what every city could use, vacant lots or run down homes converted to new homes bringing in new residents and giving a big tax base boost to the city.

As for the design we were pretty much dictated by the Historic Review Comission. We had previously submitted more intricate designs but were sent back to remove elements. However I do think we could have done a better job with the renderings, we are working on that. I don’t think they give a great depiction of the actual buildings, especially the colors.

Since you have determined Center Square to be #2 in value, please let me know which neighborhood is #1 and which neighborhood is #3. I can then do some research to see if I agee or disagree with your conclusion.

To where’s the money #20, Washington Park is #1 as far as I know (many houses are close to $1 million). #3 isn’t as easy to determine, simply because the other neighborhoods are closer in value. Try Heldeberg or Buckingham Lake. They’re basically suburban and during my cursory glance last night, it appeared the prices were higher than neighborhoods like Pine Hills, Melrose, New Scotland, etc.

To Ike #18, I could not agree more. I can only speculate that Hamilton and Hudson have lower property values or less decorative homes. That’s just a thought that I’ve always had while walking around looking at the buildings though, not the thesis that Where’s The Money would prefer. As I said, cross Jay Street and you haven’t actually left the neighborhood, regardless of what the association says. Some background on the formation of the boundaries can be found here:

#19 Mr. Crisafulli, thank you for taking on this project. It’s too bad that you can’t get tax credits for infill projects. Given the amount of improvement that will be made to the streetscape, I wonder if other properties on Jay would benefit. I think even the commenters of Places and Spaces could agree that these homes beat the vacant lots that sit there now, regardless of how we may feel about the designs.

FYI, I have not put forth a “thesis”, only trying to see what opinions and facts might be in other peoples minds. Part of a “critical thinking” process I go through, questioning what people state as “fact” and finding in many cases there may well be nothing but opinion to support the facts, or the facts are distorted to justify an opinion. Simply a self-education process for me.

Further; Source – trulia.com
Avg. listing price/week ending Sept. 8

Washington Park $1,300,000.

Bishop’s Gate 355,975

Ten Broeck Triangle 342,400

Buckingham Lake 267,119

Center Square 240,788

Manning Blvd 229,960

Pastures 229,950

etc., etc.

This is only a spot view of asking price but is better (I believe) than someone’s speculation. Certainly does not reflect final sale price and mix of properties within a neighborhood. To me a good comparision of relative values neighborhood to neighborhood would be to compare the total assessed value of each neighborhood (all being within the same taxing entity such as the city of Albany).

As you might know the city puts up on the internet the assessed values of all properties in the city. This is far better than many suburban comunities that make you come into the town hall and manually look through the tax maps.

#22, where’s the money… That is interesting. Ten Broeck Triangle was once the wealthiest area of the city, with the majority of lumber barons concentrated there (Millionaire’s Row). It fell into serious neglect, as did much of the city, and has (somewhat) recently seen its properties restored. It’s quite beautiful now, although it still has a little way to go.

However, I believe as neighborhoods are concerned, that Ten Broeck is part of Arbor Hill. (Think of Lark Street within Center Square or The College of Saint Rose within Pine Hills.) As far as our discussion goes, this is very helpful, as it helps us define the term ‘neighborhood’.

Also, I never said that you were putting forth a thesis, just that you were asking for one. I have always found your contributions to be among the most well-thought-out on the entire site , whether I agree or not. It seemed you were on the attack for basically no reason and I apologize for any rudeness with which I reacted. As for my answers, I was going off of “research” (read, looking around the internet, finding patterns and thing ‘oh that’s neat’) that I have done over the last year or so. I have been studying urbanism in general in my free time and trying to apply it to Albany, in order to better grasp certain concepts. And to explain Albany in terms of larger urban ideas. (And btw, this city is a perfect case study for basically every piece of American urban history. You can look at a map and see all the concepts of how cities developed from the 1800s to the present, with the original estate in the park suburbs (Washington Park), the turn of the century streetcar suburbs (Pine Hills), suburban pods (UAlbany, State Office Campus), misguided urban renewal (Empire State Plaza) and gentrification (Ten Broeck, Center Square).)

I was eagerly awaiting your next response, hoping to learn a bit more. You did not disappoint! I also suggest Zillow.com for some of the pieces that you felt you were missing, such as final sale prices.

Your thoughts caught my interest with regard to “urban history” and I agree with what you said about Albany, but don’t forget Troy and Schenectady. I particlarliy like the history of Troy’s rise and fall around the steel industry (amazing wealth there at one time also). Tom Carroll who has an office in the old Burden Iron works building in south Troy can give you some amazing information if you ever get a chance to meet/talk to him.

Just another thought about Albany. I like politics so I tend to watch how the state politicians function and their impact on the state. Extend that to sourounding communities and if you take the time and interest you can really get to see how government operates at all levels. I then tell people multiply that by some number and you can begin to understand the mess in Washington (both parties).

If you want a break and a chuckle go over to the East Greenbush TU blog and read some of the writings by Tony Barbaro (? spelling of last name). Its a real trip and he makes everyday life enjoyable.

#24, Where’s the money, I could not agree more about Troy’s history. It’s particularly fascinating how the neglect of the city in the last half century or so actually allowed it to be so well preserved. My partner and I like to go there every so often and I will be sure to try and get to the Burden building and speak to him. Thanks for the tip!

I’ll also be sure to check out the other blog you mentioned, as soon as work slows down today! Thanks again!

If you do get to talk to Tom you will discover there is not enough time to pick his brain. Get him to relate to you the history of the gothic style church located in So Troy (as you enter So. Troy via the Menands Bridge go up the road, Mill Rd I think, toward Rt 4, Hudson Valley Comm. Coll., the church is before you reach the Stewarts at Campbell ave.) It brings into play Albany via the Corning family and the relationships with the Burden family. The church has been in disrepair, but with the resolution of issues that date back to Burden/Corning (ill) relationships, a group has taken it over and trying to save it by converting to artist space.

JayK – maybe better directions, over Menands Bridge to South End Taveren and make a right turn at that light towards HVCC/Rt4. Church bldg. is not too far up the street, located on left side, set back on the hill.

(Note the ladies entrance sign on the south end tavern,… now that is history!!)