Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

In my experience, I've encountered two primary methods of applying kote gaeshi; one in which nage goes for the pain (and snaps the wrist), and the second which nage uses dynamics and connection to get a good throw. In the first, I have chosen to do breakfalls to avoid the broken wrist, whereas in the second, I felt like I was made to do a breakfall. I have held the assumption that if the wrist was broken, then the connection would also be broken along with the ability to fell the uke, like trying pick up something with a broken spoon. Basically, I think that you can't throw uke or make him fall if you break his wrist outright.

I think the first method is incorrect, unless you are trying to break the wrist; but then I consider what happens next since uke has not fallen and I am standing in front of him with my whole side open.

I prefer the second method which fells the uke instead. I don't think that kote gaeshi was meant in Aikido for breaking the attacker's wrist, but is more efficient as a throw.

A big problem I think is that many people don't know the difference, and when uke doesn't jump into a breakfall fast enough, they end up with injury.

Actually, I know some people who use the pain application (A.K.A "Move it or lose it") in all of their techniques, this is just one example.

What do you think? Do you think that the uke with fall as a result of a broken wrist? What do you teach? What do you practice?

When I throw kotegaeshi I as often don't bring my second hand to the locked hand, but just drop the forearm with my second hand to throw uke. Their center is usually most of the way over their wrist anyway, and it only takes a little to throw them. The "wrist breaker" doesn't seem like a very constructive way to practise. That said, as uke, I am always half-expecting it and ready to jump into a high fall to save my wrist, especially when working with sort-of-new people...

More on topic: I really dont see how the original question calls for an answer about lazy ukemi. Personally I feel that smooth waza with kuzushi is the way to go, If uke can make a breakfall on kotegaeshi he can also escape or counter the waza.

...I have held the assumption that if the wrist was broken, then the connection would also be broken along with the ability to fell the uke, like trying pick up something with a broken spoon. Basically, I think that you can't throw uke or make him fall if you break his wrist outright.

I may be wrong, but I think you can still control uke's center once you've broken the wrist because it's still attached by way of sinew and muscle. It just becomes more fluid. Unless the part you're holding on to breaks off I don't see how the connection is necessarily broken just because the bone(s) are separated.

I may be wrong, but I think you can still control uke's center once you've broken the wrist because it's still attached by way of sinew and muscle. It just becomes more fluid. Unless the part you're holding on to breaks off I don't see how the connection is necessarily broken just because the bone(s) are separated.

And even if it does break off I suppose one could beat uke about the head with the hand until he or she falls down!

Last Tuesday we spent most of class working the minutae of kote gaeshi, slowly slowly slowly. No momentum, so no opportunity to gloss over holes in technique.

What I found was, as usual, it wasn't a case of gaining compliance thru pain, but using conjective locking to take uke's center. There's a point, if you have taken the slack out of uke's wrist, and you've got control of the forearm, that uke's elbow has to kink out, his shoulder drops , and his center HAS to move such that he is no longer strong and balanced. Then you just put him where you want him.

Sure, if he gives you lots of momentum to work with, it flows beautifully into a breakfal. Or with little momentum, you can drop him straight down WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF CONTROL.

IMHO gaining compliance thru pain is the same as muscling thru a technique: it's not the Aikido I train to achieve, and if I rely on it, it will fail me if I ever need to use my art in a RL defense situation.

AKKK. well, to the credit of both, uke walked away, if a bit loopy. That was one heckofa breakfall. I have no idea how to train for that.

Second. How would the "break-the-wrist" approach work with uke? Well, if I'm uke, you might well break my wrist: I've really flexible wrists (sensei calls me "Gumby" once in a while), and I often don't feel pain till the very last, then it comes on very fast. I probably would never train with you again. If you're defending yourself against someone who's high on crystal meth, they might not notice that you've broken their wrist and fail to fall down. If your uke is a big brawny experienced fighter, he may get in a few shots with his other weapons, since you haven't broken his balance before you break his wrist, or he may be able to muscle out of it. Or if you do break his wrist and get to walk away, his buddies will probably come after you with worse for breaking their buddy's wrist. People tend to take that kind of damage more seriously than a simple humiliation.

since you haven't broken his balance before you break his wrist, or he may be able to muscle out of it.

The way I learn indicates most of the techniques are intended to break one joint or another, not just Kote-Gaishi. This does not mean giving up on the Kuzushi, nor giving up your connection to Uke.
One does not have to coome instead of the other.

First achieve Kuzushi, then perform the technique correctly, in a manner which places your body against his weak point. And if you start to lose the connection, move on to another technique.
So if somethng got broken and no longer provides a connection, move up towards his center and continue, until he no longer threatens you.

I practice it in the 2nd way you described, where you have Kuzushi and you lead and cut and uke falls as a result of your throw. And then after he is on the ground you decide what to do with him.

But if he has a knife or is using deadly force/ intent (assuming i am lucky/ fast enought to be able to gain control of him) then i would just go ahead and snap his wrist and sweep his legs out from under him; and pin him and then call the cops; or just leave.

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei

More on topic: I really dont see how the original question calls for an answer about lazy ukemi. Personally I feel that smooth waza with kuzushi is the way to go, If uke can make a breakfall on kotegaeshi he can also escape or counter the waza.

It looked to me like alot of flashy ukemi in that kotegaishi. Not saying that Nage didnt have perfect lead, but it seemed as though he only half applied the cut. So in effect, he didnt fully apply the technique and uke flipped over his own wrist because it looked good.

Or so it seemed to me.

-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei