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Tuesday, September 27, 2011

Antisocial evolution

A reader writes:

ME, this article made me think of you. It reminded me of some of the discussions I've had with your readers, regarding the perceived evolutionary advantage of being a sociopath. Here, we have a colony of traditionally cooperative, successful microbes, placed in an environment with unprecedented access to resources, resulting in the emergence of genetically-induced anti-social behavior. Obviously, the scales are different, but the parallels between this experiment and post-tribal human society, as it relates to the emergence of sociopaths, are certainly striking. Of note is the observation that anti-social behavior is only advantageous so long as socialization is still the norm, and once the majority of the population stops enforcing social behavior, the entire colony dies under stress. The implication that anti-social behavior only appears advantageous in the short term, being a complete evolutionary dead-end should the genes become dominant, is a topic I thought you might enjoy dissecting. Enjoy.

“It just makes you ask, ‘What on earth is that doing?’ ” said Gregory J. Velicer, a former student of Dr. Lenski’s who is now an associate professor at Indiana University. Dr. Velicer experienced this bafflement firsthand while watching the evolution of a predatory microbe called Myxococcus xanthus. Myxococcus swarms lash their tails together and hunt in a pack, releasing enzymes to kill their prey and feasting on the remains. If the bacteria starve, they come together to form a mound of spores. It is a cooperative effort. Only a few percent of the bacteria end up forming spores, while the rest face almost certain death.

This social behavior costs Myxococcus energy that it could otherwise use to grow, Dr. Velicer discovered. He and his colleagues allowed the bacteria to evolve for 1,000 generations in a rich broth. Most of the lines of bacteria lost the ability to swarm or form spores, or both.

Dr. Velicer discovered that some of the newly evolved bacteria were not just asocial — they were positively antisocial. These mutant cheaters could no longer make mounds of spores on their own. But if they were mixed with ordinary Myxococcus, they could make spores. In fact, they were 10 times as likely to form a spore as normal microbes.

Dr. Velicer set up a new experiment in which the bacteria alternated between a rich broth and a dish with no food. Over the generations, the cheaters became more common because of their advantage at making spores. But if the cheaters became too common, the entire population died out, because there were not enough ordinary Myxococcus left to make the spore mounds in the times of famine.

During this experiment, one of Dr. Velicer’s colleagues, Francesca Fiegna of the Max Planck Institute for Developmental Biology, discovered something strange. She had just transferred a population of cheaters to a dish, expecting them to die out. But the cheaters were making seven times as many spores as their normal ancestors. “It just made no sense,” Dr. Velicer said. “I asked her I don’t know how many times, ‘Are you sure you marked the plates correctly?’ ”

She had. It turned out that a single Myxococcus cheater had mutated into a cooperator. In fact, it had evolved into a cooperator far superior to its cooperative ancestors. Dr. Velicer and his colleagues sequenced the genome of the new cooperator and discovered a single mutation. The new mutation did not simply reverse the mutation that had originally turned the microbe’s ancestors into cheaters. Instead, it struck a new part of the genome.

445 comments:

Honor of being the first commenter today? Where is everybody? Highlight the white block to read the text. Interesting stuff. Antisocials can mutate into seriously productive folks is what I read. Anything is possible. Now that we have one random mutation what big life lesson is supposed to come out of this?

David, saw your open wound-v and saggy-t issue from yesterday. You're so funny. Since you can/do avoid all that, there really is no issue, is there? Good thing the issue is not contagious to other guys out here.

You are entertaining today, David. The good thing about V is that it may not look like much but it sure feels good based on majority male reaction.

DO you fantasize to date UKan? Mis? Asking since you mentioned them.

Once you had claimed that you could be open to an interesting episode after a dinner date with a woman. I guess you were drunk or overly adventurous then. It is good to know preferences, keep away from V.

DavidSocio01 said...@SceliIt certainly is contagious, I just got a mail from Ukan saying that he want to date me!

Yeah, like piranhas turning carnivorous when the water levels go down. Survival creates any beast necessary... Beast is true to itself when procreation is its ultimate purpose. A pd who cares not to have children versus the antisocial creature who decides to become cooperative and gets into heavy spore production... Life goes on with all kinds of examples.

Luke, you spent many lines explaining why you got here except give us the moment of empathy and ask for what we think. Were you thinking that TNP would talk about a similar case and that's how you'd learn? I say this because you initially felt you were just like TNP.

I have the feeling you're a touch embarrassed about your moment of empathy, of having felt something. Are you? It is ok if you are, that embarrassment just says that you are narcissistic enough to feel shame, meaning you are still a bad ass. It is important to remain bad ass, isn't it?

Forum... No, thank you. Not interested in the forum at all. So, you actually spelled it all out (very specifically as to the event and the associated emotions) in the forum? And, had some wisdom come back at you from our for-uhm-psychic-in-house that you appreciated?

i meant that only a nerd would phrase it like that... ya know, you're really starting to make yourself sound stupid luke. why do you keep blabbing about beat downs in real life and what not... it's not as if it makes any difference here, so what's the point?

lol, okay luke, there's no need to read so much into it... just stop talking about how you could beat the hell out of everyone in real life, already. it's not doing you any favours here, it just makes you look childish and rather ridiculous.

i mean, telling people here that you could give them a beating is pure lunacy, since you've never actually met anyone here, so in truth, nobody knows... it's the same as if you were to compare looks with somebody you've never even seen... pointless, just saying.

that hardly makes a difference, luke, you know that. just because you made the statement on a different thread doesn't cancel it out. i'm talking about you, not today's post, or anything else... you're just trying to avoid answering, now.

okay luke... basically what i'm wondering, is if you actually realise that stating that you could beat up any other regular here, without having met any of them in real life, is nonsensical and ridiculous. do you realise this?

Since you got here three or four days ago you've had to basically nonstop defend yourself. Is it tiring you, or do you just find it exciting? My supposition would be the latter, as you haven't left yet.

Totally unrelated but...I just moved into a new apartment and we don't have Internet yet, so posts I'm making are all made from my phone, somewhat inconvenient and less accessible...so it's a bit harder to follow these comment threads and post.

Empathy evolved as a part of the 'social brain' for a reason, but only in circumstances of a limited population size where people interact on an intimate scale.

'Paths who co-operate with others in a group of large population size *will* create benefits for the group because our judgements aren't held back by the empathy which doesn't produce useful results at the necessarily impersonal level of what might be called 'political economy'.

We aren't just a side-effect of population size, because it allows us to move on to elsewhere in the same society before we get pushed off the ice or something.

By the way 'pushed off the ice' is a reference to how the Eskimo treated their 'kunlangeta' ('paths) if our behaviours became too costly for their hunter gatherer group. This is at a lower population size, of course, than the kinds of societies where we become a benefit and not a cost.

It doesn't matter if people either here or in real life think I'm a bad ass. One of my favorite lines when I used to do my thing was right beforehand when they'd say-and they always say it-"I'm not scared of you".

I'd tell them "you don't have to be scared, nobody asked you to be scared." or "since when is being scared a requirement for getting beat?" and proceed. It really doesn't matter what one thinks of you, here or there. It matters what the reality is.

Yeah bro, when I get someone on the ground I tell them, "It's not a requirement that you stand up" and then I start jumping on their head with a pogostick

Luke started out today with some interesting points about what was posted. Clare is the only one since to have anything to add.

Both had great points.

I guess you all just want Luke to keep going over things he wrote already and not go on to something new. Or you just like the way he answers you everytime you write. You all like attention so much. Or maybe he talks over your heads and you just can't understand the meaning of much.

Truth, no one cares about your biased opinion. Even you can't be stupid enough to see that Sceli has contributed as well. And by the way, what have you contributed here? Ever? I thought so. Now shut up.

By the way 'pushed off the ice' is a reference to how the Eskimo treated their 'kunlangeta' ('paths) if our behaviours became too costly for their hunter gatherer group. This is at a lower population size, of course, than the kinds of societies where we become a benefit and not a cost.

Oh yes, Luke talks way over my stupid dumb head. M.E posted a fascinating article today, one which I will be sure to file away for future reference. The white blocks made it impossible to read the last half on my phone, though, and I don't really have much to say about the article other than to voice how it relates to my suspicion that ASPD is actually evolutionarily beneficial in a small segment of a social population. That is, if 96% of the population is socially normal, then it will always benefit a smaller segment of the population to take advantage the social boundries of the majority. However an equilibrium is maintained in that if too many members of the population are antisocial, anarchy occurs and society breaks down. I've always thought of this 4% as the predators that feed on the normative societal structure.

@Luke

True, the arguments have slowed down-yesterday's comments only had 370 instead of 670 or so.

hey luke, ya learned how to fuck yet?????? no????? go to the institute off fucking on 123 fuck street. please bring 1 pair of rubber gloves and a bottle of lube. condoms will be washed and re-supplied for your personal use

It doesn't matter if people either here or in real life think I'm a bad ass. One of my favorite lines when I used to do my thing was right beforehand when they'd say-and they always say it-"I'm not scared of you".

I'd tell them "you don't have to be scared, nobody asked you to be scared." or "since when is being scared a requirement for getting beat?" and proceed. It really doesn't matter what one thinks of you, here or there. It matters what the reality is

Serious Luke?! This is cornier than a Chuck Norris flick. Is this what office clerks dream about when they are shuffling papers and filing folders?

Nice. So everyone said for mis and ukan to stop ragging on luke so that there can be a meaningful conversation in here. All I see now is Erin and Luke grandstanding as king and queen of the blog. Pretty sad.

You're the only one calling UKan UKunt... Or calling Medusa a malignant narcissist for that matter. Everyone knows it's you. Even though it's kinda cute you still think you're being covert or something. :3

"She had. It turned out that a single Myxococcus cheater had mutated into acooperator. In fact, it had evolved into a cooperator far superior to itscooperative ancestors. Dr. Velicer and his colleagues sequenced the genomeof the new cooperator and discovered a single mutation. The new mutationdid not simply reverse the mutation that had originally turned themicrobe’s ancestors into cheaters. Instead, it struck a new part of thegenome."

How fun!It's great that they can watch evolution take place so quickly through these studies. Too bad we can see human evolution happen as quickly.

Which is why The History of Evolution, pulled me in. It went over the evolution of every species. I really liked The History of Sex too. It shows you how just one mad-man, in a position of power, can suddenly change the rules, and make something that was once considered moral, a crime.

You sound like Jason Luke when he used to proclaim people his bitches. Nobody is running away. Some of us just go out and do actually things in the real world. If you think that anyone gives you one moment of thought outside of this place you're delusional. And you're actually jealous about the anons posting their pecking order shit and you not being at the top? Strange because nobody else cares. Its funny how you spend so much time obsessing over UKan and whoever else when they're not even around to provoke you.

Oh and you don't have to respond to every bullshit trivial comment on here.

Luke's main reason for making a blogger account is so he can delete comments.

Erin thinks of Luke as Che Guevara, liberating Sociopath Worl from the oppression of UKan, Medusa and Misanthrope. She herself doesn't have the courage to take on the three of them, not even indirectly, so she cheerleads Luke from the sideline as an anon.

Any hierarchy you think you see here exists solely in your mind. There are only people who think they should listen to their made-up hierarchy, and people that don't. Most of the regulars fall in the latter category.

Medusa has been getting bored with the normal interactions here, and is growing impatient because no one tries to figure her out or attack her, so she has begun openly challenging people.

"plus Missy, if people didn't reply to the bullshit trivial comments on here you'd be talking to yourself all the time, and we wouldn't want that would we?"

Took you a while to think up that one. How very clever and witty you are. It's funny how you think your opinion of me goes for everyone else as well. Of coufse the person I'm talking to like shit is going to dislike me. Big fucking surprise. You wouldn't have mentioned UKan being at the top of that thing if it didn't bother you on some level. That much is clear. And I'm not the guy who posts bitchy little comments about all over the forum and the comment section. You clearly think more about us than we do about you. I speak to you directly on the comment section when you're here and as it happens you're here 24/7. I know that you're always within reach because you're life is so dull that even you admit to hating every second of it.

We'll I'd prefer smaller responses in the future. You really do know how to drone on. I do keep cards close to my chests. That's because I treat this place like a game. It's also fun to watch you desperately spinning random tales about me beating my non existent children and digging ditches because you have nothing else to throw at me. No I don't care about what you say to me. If I cared I would just lie and tell you that I'm a millionaire with a private jet and a mansion. If I cared I wouldn't be able to chose between speaking to you in a calm way or like I hate you with a passion. If I cared then I would spill everything because you told me that I keep information to myself because I care to much. Lol.

It's a shame that I'm not interested in how much money you do or don't make Luke. That doesn't prove anything here. And once again its funny how you compare your lifestyle to mine when you know nothing about it. Go to your meeting and make your cash. We both know that you'll be back on the forum tomorrow writing down the few things you enjoy about your life just to keep yourself going.

Erin, remember how you accused me of using an anon named Medusa's Little Helper to bolster myself?

And now you are doing the same yourself, with your Blah Blah's Fan Club shit? Even though it wasn't me who did it in the first place, although clearly you still believe it was. I think I've even seen you use Helper before.

Do you see how you keep doing this? You accuse me of one thing, and then you start doing it yourself. Or I say something, and then you copy it.

It's like you are trying to steal parts of my perceived personality for some reason.

Or are you just playibg the role of tough guy again. The hardcase office clerk. I didn't know you were 30 luke. From drug runner to fortune 500 you habe done it all already. You rose to the top of both worlds, you must be a genius. Oh yah you did tell us you had a 'genius' level of intelligence. So it must all fit together because you are so smart in here.its funny you think me doing something like going swimming and having sex is running from you. I have a great life luke, I don't sit in a cubicle punching my keyboard to try to impress some sociopaths online. I certainly don't think about you all day, but you are on here wih my name in your mouth 24/7. Its good to see how riled up you get.What the fuck is this shite you said that people are laughing at now. About you saying some cornball line to people before you smash them. It made me laugh luke. I can't believe you even wrote it I had to check to make sure it was you. Good thing you made a account.

I have a question for you all, just calling in for opinions if you will.

Anons who post status and hierarchies and random lists of that nature-do you think they are really anons? Or people we know just posting as anons? I always have to wonder, because I don't know if random people read read through all of our comments and junk, especially if they don't even have the motivation to pick a name for themselves. I guess I couldn't understand why you'd lurk through all these comment threads and not even choose to give yourself a handle. I've been visiting this site for a long long time, but it was solely to read M.E's posts. I never got into the comment interactive social segment of the site until M.E posted a story of mine.

So basically, back to my original question...calling for some speculation here obviously...roughly how many anons do you fellas estimate are actual anons?

Yeah that pre beating one liner was one of the stupidest fucking things I've seen in a while luke. You wonder why people on here laugh at you. It's not because we're in a gang its because you're a weirdo.

You can tell who's who. Some are people who will make a account in a month or so once they get into a heated exchange with a regular. I think the hierarchy thing is just bait to make people turn on me and misanthrope.

"I think the hierarchy thing is just bait to make people turn on me and misanthrope."

Mabye. I laugh when some of these people try twist things around in here though.

It's good to see that you can follow directions too Luke. Thanks for the short response. I wasn't laughing at what your the reasons someone might have behind a one liner like that Luke. I was laughing at the fact that you would actually come here spout such pitiful shit.

These games are pretty interesting. You can't really accept a lot of things at face value around here, huh? You have to question if one new person posting for example might actually be a regular in disguise-I think UKan did this with Luke under the handle Kari, right? So it's hard to tell, you sort of have to compare the syntactical organization of the writing to possible motives and what you know about the personalities and trends of site regulars. There are certain threads and posts on the forum that I might even suspect are covertly manipulative. Don't know for sure, I try to keep my suspicions in a place where they can be disposed of in light of new evidence. It's kind of fun.

Luke I don't say anythin to people. I just hit them while they are still talking. So run your mouth some more or talk about the boring loveless relationship you have with your "fiance". Or continie on your blog. Or sit and dig for anything remotely positive about your pathetic life and write it down so you wont feel so ashamed of it. If you need to you can make it all up like your past.

For some reason there are these types of people who boguard their way into a community, and introduce themselves in the most assholish way possible, then back into a corner pissing on themselves yapping pathetically like a scared puppy when someone questions them on their assholery. Just like a real community first impressions are everything. To come in with this agenda to take over when no one was in charge shows just how freaked' stupid this newcomer is. No one here, in my many months of lurking, has ever made it seem like the mickey mouse club with singing and dancing and holding hands. Everyone here holds their own. To come here claiming you are a soldier and everyone is against you is just your fucked up mind contorting the reality of it all to fit your fantasy of being something important enough to go "against".

No. I think you did. What's happened to all your long boring defencive walls of text? I cant imagine somebody actually saying thart crap before they smack someone out Luke. I never have because it souds retarded.

Misanthrope and I jump on people who have accounts thst give us praise luke so I know it wasn't us posting that shite. You on the otuer hand have admitted cheerleading yourself in here with anons and jump on anyones cock that might back you up. All that's happened so far is that every cunt with a hair up their arse has used you over and over even erin. I'm going to enjoy the rest of my day in leisure. You have fun putting together the O'Brien file for your boss while at home your unhappy fiance is getting fucked by a real gangster.

"To come here claiming you are a soldier and everyone is against you is just your fucked up mind contorting the reality of it all to fit your fantasy of being something important enough to go "against"."

Okay, so now it is clear that your son has CP. That's all I wanted to know.

You claiming to not want attention is obviously bullshit. Come on. You came here looking for people like yourself, and then at the same time you claim you don't want attention from anyone? i.e. from your wife? Any woman?

Look, I'm not saying that desiring attention is necessarily and bad or weak thing. Everybody does to some extent. I'm just sayin'.

"@Eden-I didn't catch that, not sure how I'd be a victim. What I meant-didn't think I'd have to break this down so fully-was that without victims they start attacking one another (i.e. here) and eventually the society destroys itself."

Oh lordy... You're not playing dense with me are you?

I was piecing a possible joke together for ya...

I understood fully what you meant in your comment. What I was saying Luke:

UKan says he was reading through you're other comments, and then hinted that you think this blog is about you... so I picked the part where you were saying this blog needs victims...

-I actually really don't for the most part. I did come here to talk to like-minded people, but I don't know that really qualifies as attention-seeking?

The fact that you are clearly enjoying and prolonging the effect your presence has had here since you have arrived belies you.

I definitely don't want the fiance's attention, she annoys me just by being awake at this point to be honest. Generally I prefer to be left alone. I'd love to find someone that didn't annoy me to hang out with I suppose, but I think the chances of that happening are pretty slim.

Then why make everything harder for yourself by agreeing to marry her? Short-term gratification? At the expense of future gratification?

You said yourself now that you've have agreed to marry her, now she has moved on to nagging you about the date. So did your attempt to "shut her up" really work?

I don't think I said I wanted her to go away, I do want her to leave me alone however.

Well good luck trying to have your cake and eat it, too. Maybe with this woman you can, she is with you after all.

Her nagging, though, kinda says that at some point she will probably get fed up and be the first to leave, even if you are the one who wants out the most. This is just conjecture, though, as I know little to nothing about her.

You got some funky logic, Luke. I see you trying to mislead, talking about one thing and then later pretending like you are talking about something else. Sly, but not sly enough.

You said you don't need any attention. I proved that yes, you do. Now, instead of just saying, "yeah, that's true" as any logical person would, you acting as if our conversation here is about 'fun', not 'attention'.

To have your 'fun' you must needs have the 'attention'. And that is my point.

And with that statement (the one at 3:43, this'll probably take some time to write), we've hit the essence of your problems here. (I know you're going to say "What problems?" and I also know that saying this won't stop you from doing so but, shut up and listen)

From the minute you got here, you've been making mistakes. But that's not the problem. The problem is you, insisting that you haven't.

You say "Think mob... think cartel..." That was a mistake. What do you say in response to people calling you out? "I thought it was obvious lol, you're taking things too literally lol, I only tried to point you in some direction lol." Instead of saying "You're right, I shouldn't have used those words. (lol optional)"

You said "I haven't posted as anons." I said "Yes you have, here are the examples, you even admitted it later on." You then said "I thought those were obvious lol, I didn't mean those anons lol, it's your fault for not noticing it lol." Instead of saying "Okay, you got me. lol."

I could go on... so I will (I feel like I've already used that 'joke')

You went into lenghty arguments and size defences with different people here. You then said you didn't care what anyone here thought of you, and continued defending your stories and reputation. And then continued saying you didn't care.

You said your mother stabbed some guy (an incredibly-unnecessary-yet-believable-because-of-it-apparent-randomness) seventeen times, and then said that your mother was a therapist. People here were all like "*gasp*" because you forgot that not everyone is adopted and that it might sound a little confusing to people who aren't adopted if you referred to both your mothers as 'mother'. I'm sure that you called your foster mother 'mother' as well, but for clarity's sake, you could have at least used the term 'adoption mother' here one time. And when people thought they saw a contradiction and asked you about it (granted, not very politely), you weren't even willing to say that "Yeah, I could have been more clear, I can see where this confusion comes from, I'm sorry." Instead you said (in essence) "It's all your fault, if you were adopted you'd have understood me."

That's why you've been singled out. Not because you're boasting or lying or having an ego or something. Not because people are jealous, feel threatened, hate newcomers. It's because you refuse to admit that your shit doesn't stink.

Denying your mistakes doesn't make you untouchable, it makes you delusional.

(I wanted to say I'd kill myself or do something similarly drastic if someone has already said in essence what I've just finished saying, but because I think the chances of that happening are quite high, I'll just go 'OTL' if that has happened)

Luke probly thought you meant attention as in from the crowd or in the context that attention was the primary motivation. It seems more like attention is an obvious necssity for this bullshitting to occur or it woukdnt happen not that attention was the actual motivation.

Even if I lied about everything I'v just said to do that, you still fell for it because you wanted to correct me anyway. And if I somehow set that up as well, I'm obviously much smarter than you are, so why doubt me or try to argue with me?

.

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.