Military opinions and war experience

I am 19 years old and I am a big supporter of our military and any military. I hold everlasting respect and love for all veterans on American wars,
and this will most likely not change.

However, and this may come as a surprise to all you, I am an anti-war person. But I am not your typical anti-war person. To me, I am anti-war as long
as that war in question does not begin. Once that war begins, war has to be won, and that's where I change to a pro-war stance. For example, I was
against the war in Iraq, but the moment it kicked off, I switched to a pro-war stance because it was out of my control and war has to be won, whether
it was based on truth or lies.

That said, I was real intrigued by the psychological and sociological factors involved when it comes to military opinions and war experience. To me, I
think this is especially the case in the Western world, even moreso in America. As much as we'd like to think otherwise, Americans really have a very
limited/sanitized view of "reality," as in how the world is without all the great things we have in America. I think it's safe to say that the
majority of Americans don't realize what it's like to live in a village in Africa, attacked daily by a rival militia or tribe. So many people here
in America criticize these people for being "uncivilized" and "savage," yet this is reality of humanity. It's humanity at it's worst and we were
just fortunate enough that we don't have to live like that. Given that, I think many people here, with their very idealized view on how the world
works, believes that things like war is necessary or okay, simply because it's like a video game to us. We're not doing the fighting, therefore, if
we can't handle the war, all we have to do is turn off the TV. That kind of attitude resonates throughout the ages and gets passed down. It gets to
the point where somebody is considering the military and they figure "Hey, it can't be any worse than what they show on TV, right?"

To me, it's just a lack of reality. I mean, a gun is always cool, just as long as it doesn't blow your brains out and make you a retard for the rest
of your life.

I could go on and on about this. I am planning to study anthropology and sociology right now and to me, war is the best and most important "base" to
study humanity on.

I was in Baghdad watching Iraq fall on CNN. I was deployed from Ft. Bragg, and it was my sixth year in the Army (I was a communications guy). I
remember having to work on my birthday, loading our HUMVEEs on a train, bound for Iraq, thinking, "What's the big rush? Let the inspectors do
their jobs."

When I was there it was pretty bad, logistically. Yeah, we burned our feces every night, but there was no hot food the first couple of months there.
Well, I take that back. We had MRE's for breakfast and lunch, and for dinner the mess hall served ham omelets. They came in what looked like big tv
dinner packages, and were nasty. And of course, we didn't have any hard armor, just flak jackets. I was there for nine months. First in Mosul, and
then Balad.

During the first months of the occupation, things weren't so bad. But after my time was up, you could see a change. I've seen a lot of bad behavior
from my fellow Army comrades, and the Iraqis didn't seem as friendly the longer we were there.

I was put in for a bronze star (but never got it) and interviewed by USA today. During one of our convoys, one of our trucks carrying boxes of water
broke down. My team and I were chosen to guard it until my unit came back for it. The Iraqi civilians surrounded us, wanting that water. At first we
were punching them back, yelling "Keef! Keef!". Then I told my guys to fire some warning shots. That backed up the crowd for a little bit, but once
they discovered that we weren't going to shoot them, they surged. I told my guys if they fear for their lives, if they feel in danger, kill them. But
if not, just hit them with the butt of their rifles. There was no way I was going shoot people over boxes of water, if worse came
to worse, they could have the damned water. We held them off using our rifles as clubs for, I don't know how long. It seemed like an eternity.
Eventually our unit came back and picked us up. (We left the truck and boxes of water).

Everyone that I know from the Army is now opposed to the occupation. At first, the kids (I was 30 when I went) were all excited about killing Iraqis.
I told them it's not going to be a video game. A couple of months later I asked if they still were excited? They all said I was right, the occupation
was BS, and they wanted to go home. I got out, but I still talk to some from my old unit. They are going back for their third time in two years.

But having said all that, I don't think just because you were in the military, or even in Iraq, that it makes your opinion any more or less valid.
Our soldiers need the civilians to keep pressure on the government not to send them to their deaths. To not make them kill, unless it is absolutely
necessary. Iraq was a choice. A terrible, terrible, choice.

Our soldiers need the civilians to keep pressure on the government not to send them to their deaths.

This brings up another point, it's probably irrelevant (sp)...just a little food for thought. Being in the military you are not supposed to publicly
speak out against the government or share you views in any way if it opposses that of the military/government. I understand the need for this to a
point...I mean hell you can't pepsi trucks delivering coke...get my drift.

Originally posted by curme
IBut having said all that, I don't think just because you were in the military, or even in Iraq, that it makes your opinion any more or less valid.
Our soldiers need the civilians to keep pressure on the government not to send them to their deaths. To not make them kill, unless it is absolutely
necessary. Iraq was a choice. A terrible, terrible, choice.

send them to their deaths eh? wish we could make that happened but in any war, soldiers will die. no war is perfect.

Deltaboy...just a reminder man for you, the author of this thread is trying to keep it civilized. Making statements like that will only cause back
and forwth debate. That's a whole different topic for another thread
Thanks

Guys, sorry to highjack the thread with this but I have to answer this challenge and enlighten this guy!

Originally posted by Pyros

Originally posted by PepeLapiu1
Over 67% of Gulf war vets who had children AFTER the war and after their exposure to DU got kids with physical deformations and several other health
problems with their children.

Please provide us with the source of this data.

Sure thing: "Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project -- a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville
University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defence with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up --
said use of DU was a 'war crime'. A study of Gulf war veterans showed that 67% had children with severe illnesses, missing eyes, blood infections,
respiratory problems and fused fingers."
(Source Sunday Herald)

I mention NWO things every where I go- just to get people asking questions. One of the counter men at a parts house I go to is a Gulf War 1 vet...
though i didn't know it, and he usually stays out of conversations I get into with a couple of the others. A few weeks ago, I was in there talking to
another guy about the depleted uranium, and he walked over and started listening in. I mentioned that 67% of GW1 vets have had children with birth
defects. He told me that his daughter is autistic, and has several physical deformities, though he didn't elaborate.

Are you aware of what DU is?
DU, or depleted uranium is the waste stuff from nuclear centrals.
Disposal of it has been a difficult issue for a long time because of the tremedeous healt hazards it pertains to.
It's given to weapons manufacturers for free and they stuff their weapons with it.
It is odorless and goes undetected to the troops who use the stuff.

You really should look up "Iraq children deformities" on Google for something that will knock your socks off!
Don't look at the *edited out extremely graphic image link* born with deformities thought, that stuff will make you puke your dinner!

Remember "agent orange" from Vietnam ..... DU is far worst!
But don't count on your corporate media to inform you of all this.
*edited out extremely graphic image*
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Yup, just like the mass media!
Edit the stuff out so the peopler don't see the truth .. briiliant!

That way, the only idea the American public gets of the war is some sort of video game on TV at the 6 o'clock news.

And make sure to supress any pictures of Iraqis getting killed in Iraq, even if there has been 100,00 of them and counting ... unless of course it's
the picture of Saddam's two sons, than that is a totally different story, right?
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
I am 19 years old and I am a big supporter of our military and any military. I hold everlasting respect and love for all veterans on American wars,
and this will most likely not change.

As well you should be

Our military is there to keep us safe. Given the track record of attacks on American soil, I'd say they have done a damn
fine job through the years.

However, and this may come as a surprise to all you, I am an anti-war person. But I am not your typical anti-war person. To me, I am anti-war as long
as that war in question does not begin. Once that war begins, war has to be won, and that's where I change to a pro-war stance. For example, I was
against the war in Iraq, but the moment it kicked off, I switched to a pro-war stance because it was out of my control and war has to be won, whether
it was based on truth or lies.

I can respect that. You feel we should finish what we start, and I agree. The problem I have is we are still thee. Saddam has been captured and the
administration has all but admitted there were no WMD's. Elections to form a new governing body have been held, every thing that was planned to be
done (publicly) has been accomplished, except for the WMD. So why are we still there? BTW, that is a rhetoricle question.

As much as we'd like to think otherwise, Americans really have a very limited/sanitized view of "reality," as in how the world is without
all the great things we have in America. I think it's safe to say that the majority of Americans don't realize what it's like to live in a village
in Africa, attacked daily by a rival militia or tribe. So many people here in America criticize these people for being "uncivilized" and "savage,"
yet this is reality of humanity.

I think you have made a very good point sweatmonicaIdo.(You have to U2U me and tell me about that name!)

Humanity is a brutal species, but part of what makes us human is the ability to reason and make a conscious choice to be civilized to one another.
Maybe some people just dont realize that they actually have a choice? Maybe there are those of us who dont really know any better than to make your
way the right way? Im sorry if Im not making sense here. I just got in from my night class. Finals night.....Glad its over

Our soldiers need the civilians to keep pressure on the government not to send them to their deaths. To not make them kill, unless it is absolutely
necessary. Iraq was a choice. A terrible, terrible, choice.

Amen curme

If a war is justified, I would support it, but I cant imagine having the lives of thousands of young Americans around my neck for a crappy decision. I
couldnt live with that. I DO support our troops. I support them so much that I want them to come home now and be safe. They should not be there
anymore. Enough families have lost loved ones and now it is getting sensless.

I've been very tied up today, so I havn't been able to join this debate. I just wanted to add a few initial comments before I have to log off and
move out.

To all the vets on ATS, whether we agree or not, I salute you for your service.

Every nation must defend itself. And every nation
needs its warriors. Just like the doctor and the priest, it is one of life's highest callings. That is why we pay such a profound price.

As for my own service, I am proud beyond words to have been able to serve my country, especially in a time of war. To this day, no experience has ever
affected me in such a profound way.

I owe everything I learned, and my very life, to those warriors of old (the Vietnam vets) who lead us through the fire. I have never met a more
honorable and kickass bunch of men and women in my life. I am eternally in their debt.

If I could give those who read this thread any advice, it would be this: go back to page 1 and read, then read again the op/ed Stan Goff wrote. Every
thought and every phrase he wrote is the TRUTH and then some. Absorb his words. Meditate on them. He is a warrior of the highest order. And his
passion (in opposing this clusterf**k in Mess 'o' potamia) comes from the fact that he is a SOLDIER and he loves his fellow troops. He and I share
the same view, that as former soldiers, it is incumbant upon us to TELL the TRUTH! To ensure, for their sakes - while they must remain silent in
service - that our government is using them WISELY and not throwing them down the drain for nefarious purposes. We have laid down our weapons and
traded them for the pen, to fight for YOU soldier, Marine, Airman, Navy. Having taken that oath, even so long ago, it is now our DUTY to speak TRUTH
to POWER! We will never forget you. And we will never abandon you. WORD is BOND.

I just wanted to thank all of you who have participated on this thread (which I have read), for keeping it civil.

When cool heads prevail, we
can actually learn from each other. (If I could, I'd give you all a WATS vote.)

These are some very interesting replies from Vets and those currently serving in the war, and I find it very rational that these men and women would
be opposed to the war as they have expierenced death serenade thier doorstep ever so often. War is anarchy, and we have come to far as a society to
embrace anarchy. I've always perplexed joining the Army here in Canada, though, I would not serve in any wars as our goverment tends to be silent and
indifferent in regards to such matters.

A few days back a man came into my bussiness drunk and was asked to leave by my uncle, he refused, made some ignorant racist remarks, and threw a
punch at my uncle, I jumped in front and punched him, then punches were exchanged, and the next thing I knew, I had a bottle in my hand and it was
being thrown at his head; were I to have landed a good hit, I may have caused a great deal of damage. In the heat of the moment, I could not even be
rational and think of my actions wholly.

I've come to take side of soldiers, who, in the heat of the moment, like myself, take measures to ensure thier safety and those of thier comrades. I
have the upmost of respect for the men and women who have, and still choose, to fight this war regardless of it's premise.

True courage is hard come these days, it's a pity it's only deployed by those subordinated by heartless criminals.

I've been very tied up today, so I havn't been able to join this debate. I just wanted to add a few initial comments before I have to log off and
move out.

Glad you could make an appearance ECK

I owe everything I learned, and my very life, to those warriors of old (the Vietnam vets) who lead us through the fire. I have never met a more
honorable and kickass bunch of men and women in my life. I am eternally in their debt.

You are absolutly right. It was the salties who kept my head on straight while I was there. If not for their wisdome and assurance, I dont know how
things would have turned out.

We have laid down our weapons and traded them for the pen, to fight for YOU soldier, Marine, Airman, Navy. Having taken that oath, even so long ago,
it is now our DUTY to speak TRUTH to POWER! We will never forget you. And we will never abandon you. WORD is BOND.

Eloquent ECK

Very moving.

I just wanted to thank all of you who have participated on this thread (which I have read), for keeping it civil.

When cool heads prevail, we
can actually learn from each other. (If I could, I'd give you all a WATS vote.)

Carry on!

Id like to second that. Thanks for letting me come home to a clean thread with much intelligence involved

how do yall veterans feel about taking on Al Qaeda in Iraq guys? i mean like Zarqawi and his cronies killing innocent Muslims intentionally because
they aint sharing the same ambitions as he and his cronies do.

Originally posted by deltaboy
how do yall veterans feel about taking on Al Qaeda in Iraq guys? i mean like Zarqawi and his cronies killing innocent Muslims intentionally because
they aint sharing the same ambitions as he and his cronies do.

This has nothing really to do with the premis of the thread, but since you asked nicely....

IMO, had we gone after Alqueda and not let up after Tora Bora, we would not be in the mess we are in now. We should have persued OBL untill he was
captured or killed. If that had happened, we would never had went to Iraq and Alqueda would not be there.

If not for their wisdome and assurance, I dont know how things would have turned out.

No one has ever influenced me quite so much. What some people here fail to realize about me is that, despite my opposition to this war, I have fought
with myself time and again, over whether or not I should return to service - for the reason stated above. We have young men and women going into
combat all the time now, who are grossly unprepared for what lies in front of them. I know I would be that calm and steadying influence on them. What
could be more important? I am split in two on this, folks. I will always be that soldier, and my heart is with them 1000%. There are many other things
to consider, though, unfortunately.

Id like to second that. Thanks for letting me come home to a clean thread with much intelligence involved

Originally posted by deltaboy
how do yall veterans feel about taking on Al Qaeda in Iraq guys? i mean like Zarqawi and his cronies killing innocent Muslims intentionally because
they aint sharing the same ambitions as he and his cronies do.

Deltaboy, dude..this is the third time you've done this.....take the thread for whats its worth..nothing more, nothing less. This isnt about how
people feel about terrorist and G-moe and all that jazz. please reread the initial post and see what the thread is about.
Thanks again..later

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
If I could give those who read this thread any advice, it would be this: go back to page 1 and read, then read again the op/ed Stan Goff wrote. Every
thought and every phrase he wrote is the TRUTH and then some.

To be honest with you, I did read it at least 10 times in the past year or so and I think I cried like an idiot the first 5 or 6 times I read it.
Some will not cry and will simply get angry!
Here's the link to the article.
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It has come to my attention that a large number of the people who support the war in Iraq and the global policies of Bush have not served
during war time. Of course I am strictly referring to members of ATS. Cargo made this astute observation during a thread which turned into the usual
mud slinging match.

Kidfinger, I do not understand your point. A large number of people who do not support the war in Iraq and the global policies of Bush have
also not served during war time.

Are you saying that any opinion on the war is somehow less relevant if the person holding it is not a veteran?

I would think that veteran status doesn't necessarily correlate to pro- or anti-war views.

Almost every one of my male co-workers is a veteran; those my age are Vietnam-era veterans, as I am. I would say that, based on casual conversations,
that the pro-war people here outnumber the anti-war folks by about 90 percent to 10 percent; I don't know whether that is because of their veteran
status or because we build the Apache attack helicopter.

My guess is that most people -- at least those who are mature adults – tend to be pragmatic and probably base their support for the war on a series
of questions. I'm not saying that everyone has a check list or even if the questions are consciously applied. But I think most reasoning adults,
whether pro- or anti-war, probably run a calculus like this.

(1) Did Bush know that there were no Iraqi WMD prior to the war? If so, does it matter?

(2) Have the number of American deaths reached a tipping point in the “is it worth it” calculus for the person?

(3) Have the number of Iraqi deaths reached a tipping point in the “is it worth it” calculus for the person?

(4) Is the money expended in the Iraq war reached the tipping point in the “is it worth it” calculus for the person?

(5) Is access to stable and reasonably price petroleum a valid reason for going to war?

(6) Is nation-building ever worth going to war? If so, is Bush’s geopolitical efforts (i.e., a democratized and westernized Iraq as a
destabilizing force to a Ba’athist Syria and a theocratic Iran) a valid reason?

(7) Is the same putative westernized/democratized Iraq as a prod to the neofascist “allies” like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc.
to democratize themselves a valid reason?

(8) Does the war in Iraq contribute significantly to the safety of Americans in America?

(9) Are we winning the war?

A typical “anti-war” person would tend to answer “yes” to questions 1 through 4 and “no” to questions 5 through 8; a “pro-war’ person
would answer the opposite. The answer to question 9 would probably tend to move a fence-sitter into one or the other columns.

Notice that I mentioned that the above calculus applies to thinking adults. There are those who are so “pro-American government” that they would
favor the war under any circumstances. On the other hand, there are those who, by their nature are so “anti-American government” that they would
be against the war under any circumstances. I personally consider both of those classes of people to be fools, because they don’t seem able to do
any reasoning as opposed to emoting.

But hey, that’s me.

In any event, I don’t see much of a correlative between feelings about the “rightness” or “wrongness” of the war and prior military service.

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