Irregardless of what kind of compromises are made, regarding the West Bank, Jeruselem, the Golan Heights here's a simple question for whatever side you fall on:

With regards to Israel and a proposed Palestine: should one or both exist?

As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

Both can and should exist. It's a matter of indefatigable perseverence that will make it happen.

I agree. I do think that it WAS wrong to "create" Israel 60 years ago, but whats done is done. You cannot relocate millions of people and stop a state from excisting.
I also see no reason not to grant Palestine FULL INDEPENDENCE of their territories. Israel has no real control over them anyways other than the daily airstrike or two.

I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov

Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

Quoting LO231 (Reply 4):I don't think you can call any war "worst in history"....

Considering it spanned the globe, saw the use of nuclear weapons, genocide, mass murder, carpet bombing, the use of long range missiles, the development of jet engines, changed the entire belief and political structure of the world...and resulted in 62 million deaths...I think WWII could legitimately be called the 'worst in history'.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

Agreed.

Right of return in Israel is not feasible, Israel would never allow it. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.

Of course I think a Palestinian state should exist. If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem. But I've never been naive enough to believe that the conflict is about land. It has always been and is still about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state. There has been ample proof of this over the years (i.e. the numerous occasions in the 20th Century where Israel accepted partition plans but the Arabs rejected) but I think the events of the past year sum it up best.

The European/Arab narrative will tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a conflict that is caused entirely by Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and that if Israel "stops occupying Palestine", there will suddenly be peace in the Middle East. But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there. Rich American Jews lined up to offer to help the Palestinians build their economy. But what has been the result of the Gaza pullout? Literally thousands of rockets launched into "Israel proper", that is pre-1967 Israel borders capped off by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. The infrastructure that American Jews invested in--what was supposed to become the foundation of the Palestinian economy--was destroyed within weeks because of the Jewish connection. Does that appear to ANYONE as a peace-loving people recently freed of occupation?

Most Israelis (and American Jews) have long backed the creation of a Palestinian state. The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

The whole world tries to create a state for them while ignoring that it isn't a state that they desire! This is not only counterproductive; it is dangerous for the entire world. The Palestinians know they can get away with brutal terrorism and still count on the UN for refugee status/payments so I really don't expect things to change much in the near future.

It sickens me to think of the far more legitimate conflicts that exist in the world that nobody talks about. If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel. At the end of the day, it is far more difficult to build a state than it is to be a non-state entity fighting another state.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem.

Oh! How kind of you for such an unbelievably generous offer.
The UN and international law in general implies that no country can annex any land by force or transfer its population to an occupied territory, both of which Israel has no problem doing, and thus in all official UN resolutions, Jerusalem (entire of it) is NOT listed even as 'disputed territory' but 'occupied territory' or is referred to as 'occupied territories including Jerusalem'.

Well how many times will we have to go over this?? It was NOT disengagement, it was at best an enlargement of a prison still controlled by the Israelis (land border, airspace, ports). Not to mention none of the thousands of prisoners captured in Gaza were released. It was a unilateral move by Israel to draw its own borders and they intend to do the same in the West bank annexing Jerusalem and the most crucial areas of the West Bank that includes all the water resources.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

So you reach this conclusion after getting convinced that overwhelming might is not enough to suppress a people no matter how powerless? Or was this some kind of a joke? And BTW you've been flamed for saying many things before including racist remarks (don't ask me to prove it because they were deleted).

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel.

WHAT!!!
The Palestinians including the Jews were living very happily until the terrorist Zionist organisations started to ethnically cleanse them of their properties and then came along Israel doing it on an even broader scale. So it is Israel that will not have anyone to suppress (its recognised trademark) once this conflict is over, the Palestinians have all the things in the world to gain, in fact they have nothing to loose right now.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

Unfortunately, Israelis seem much more interested in expelling the Palestinians from the occupied territories by any means necessary. All the proposed "two-state solutions" have been a complete joke, and with Israel's continuing influx of immigration based on the right of return, I think it's extremely unlikely that any solution that will appease both sides will be reached unless there's a serious change in attitude on the part of the Israelis.

I recently had the opportunity to hear from a graduate student who just returned from the West Bank, and the picture he painted was rather grim. Unrelenting harassment from the IDF at security checkpoints, water and electricity being shut off at the whim of the Israeli government, and increasing encroachment from Jew-only settlements are making life much more difficult for Palestinians, and while I condemn the violent responses to these difficulties, I can't help but be sympathetic to their plight.

Israelis need to realize that their state will not survive if business continues as usual. A mutually acceptable two-state solution is in the best interests of everyone living in the region, and while pessimistic, I'm hopeful that one can be reached before it's too late.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 8):Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.

From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit. People make too much of the fact that Palestinians and Jordanians both happen to be Arabs, as Palestinians think of themselves as Palestinians, not Arabs. The student that I mentioned in the post above discussed this very issue with many Palestinians, and he told me that the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs". Personally, I wouldn't be too happy if some foreign invader took my land and expected me to move to Idaho to integrate simply because Washingtonians and Idahoans are both Americans.

Legally there's no doubt in my mind that Israel is entitled to the land within the 1967 borders and Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon are entitled to the rest.

But there are severe (I'd say insuperable) problems in the economic and political field:-

1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.There is no peaceable solution to that problem - either Israel holds on to the lion's share by force, as at present, and Palestine goes short; or the other way round.

2. Both states are run on religious, not secular, lines. Israel in particular allows unlimited inward migration for people of the Jewish faith, zilch for most others. Again, 'never the twain shall meet.'

3. That (to my mind absurd) Zionist idea that God promised the whole place to the Jews bedevils the whole field of Israeli politics. Any Israeli prime minister who suggested offering to withdraw to the 1967 borders (especially giving up East Jerusalem) would likely be run out of town on a rail within hours; or lynched.

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

The logical answer would be to accept that the whole damn place is too small for two sovereign countries anyway; and set up a federated, multi-religious state with all of Jerusalem as an international zone. All broadly as envisaged by the UN in the first place.

And further to impose strict quotas on immigration and policies to restrict population growth from all sources; while also doing a fair deal with Syria, the Lebanon, and Jordan as regards water.

But none of that is ever going to happen.

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

Unskilled labor...perhaps because the IDF keeps kids from going to school for months at a time? In any case, it's kind of tough to get to work when Israel wipes out economic infrastructure in the occupied territories and then makes it virtually impossible to work anywhere on the Israeli side of the fence. Never mind the fact that Palestinians should be able to sustain their own economy in their own state, not rely on Israel.

Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.

You have plenty of wealthy Arab countries that can certainly match what the US provides to Israel per year, and they have not done this. But as 1967 and 1973 proved, if both armies had been equal, Israel would still have come out ahead.

the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.

Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world (food, water, electricity, etc.)?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):Wouldnt the fact that some Palestinian groups call for the elimination of Israel also require them to have a change in attitude?

Yes.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Frankly, the corporate (pro-Israeli) media could give a shit about the Palestinians. You don't see them airing footage of Palestinian women dying in labor because their ambulances get held up at IDF checkpoints or Palestinian men in restraints being beaten with rocks by soldiers on the nightly news, but the second an Israeli soldier is killed it's the top story. You can rely on the media all you want, I prefer first-hand testimonials and whatever independent footage I can get my hands on that's managed to get past the Israeli military censors that screen anything leaving the country.

No, Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map, I hope though the money spent on wars will be spent on taking land from the sea instead.
My biggest wish is a Kurdistan in current North Iraq and split up of Iraq into 3 countries.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map

just to have it repeated, my ideas about the 2-states-solution, which do NOT contain any "erasing Israel" at all :
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the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.
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this btw. is more or less the el-Fatah peaceplan which was worked out in about 1985 in Europe by an elFatah rep. and some non-Palestinian friends. It interestingly was widely adopted by the el-Fatah command, which in those times was surprising
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THIS is OFF-topic here, but a word to it nevertheless. Iraqi Kurdistan at present is so autonomous that it would or rather will only be a small step into independence. The problem is that such a step may destabilize neighbouring Turkey where the Kurds also want to join an independent Kurdistan, but where most Turks reject any such development outright.

25 MD11Engineer
: The problem is that both many Palaestinians and Zionist types of Israelis are thinking in a rural mindset, where ownership of as much agrarable land

26 QR332
: The partition plans? They had ever right in the world to reject them, you can't bring a bunch of immigrants in then start splitting up the land so th

27 ME AVN FAN
: A good example of how to use resources is Lebanon, which beside some agriculture with fruit, vegetables and wines, concentrates on international bank

28 AirxLiban
: I reckon they should both exist. Israel simply because it has done. Even for those countries that don't accept that fact, it's still a defacto state a

29 Halls120
: Until you get to the last paragraph, I agree completely. Given the current state of human development, with our inability to separate religion from p

30 QR332
: Actually, it probably would work, but Israel would never accept it because there would be no more state especially for Jews.

31 Falcon84
: QR, are you going to address the basic premise of this thread, or just continue your anti-Israeli rants?

32 Cedars747
: From a religious point of view ,an Israeli state is not possible and one of the reasons is that the Torah forbids Jews to end the exile and establish

33 RJpieces
: Well I guess that's your answer to Falcon's questions. As long as Arabs are not willing to accept a basic partition (then or now), there will never b

34 ME AVN FAN
: Most Arabs are favouring the 2-states-solution. In Palestine, negotiations have started to establish a Hamas-elFatah coalition government which might

35 AGM100
: This is a question that is ground zero of the entire ME situation. In Western thinking we have or at least I do , the idea that they should just get a

36 ME AVN FAN
: it in fact already is existing and practiced. Exactly what we have now in Palestine/Israel, this PA-government, is something the Israelis in the 70ie

37 AA777
: Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Jews and Arabs lived peacefully side by side until 1948....thats when the major aggression started and when they were fo

38 LY744
: Let's see, maybe because every time the border opens the Hamas & Co gets more and more weapons in? As for those of you dreaming of an Arab controlled

39 Halls120
: Sorry, but in this instance, I think there is enough blame to go around for all. Radical Islamists would reject a secular state just as fast as the I