xtreme_phoenix:They may be polite fundies, but the fact that they claim to know instead of believe makes them arrogant fundies, the exact kind of fundy that always tempts me to punch them in the face.

The practice of holding out that your beliefs are true, i.e. knowing them to be true and not just thinking they are, is called existentialism, and fundamentalist Christians didn't invent it.

that doesn't mean they don't do it. It's a key feature of the fundamentalist mindset, and very few mainstream christians are like that. It's a position of intellectually vapid arrogance, and people who display that mindset are the kind of people I enjoy punching in the face.

But my point is, since i'm getting off track a little. That unless i ask her about it...she doesn't even *mention* it. Thats why I adore her =) Unlike the people in this artcile

... and I'm going to stop you right there. I honestly don't know why so many people seem to be missing this, but I made a point of pointing out that the members of this guild don't share anything about their beliefs unless someone asks them. The only reason people like Kaddy Lynn and Toph shared soo much with me is because I actively asked for an audience with their guild so I could ask them all of these questions.

These people are exactly like your best female friend in the world. They have strong beliefs but they don't share them unless someone actually expresses an interest first. They don't actively and openly preach and by extension they sure as hell don't try to actively convert anyone. The only example I heard of anyone from Mark Fifteen Sixteen "saving" anyone was the account from Toph, and because I quoted him word for word you can see from his account that what happened there happened entirely by accident or chance.

Now that we've discussed that bit nice and reasonably, I can now feel good about asking this: getting murdered in real life for sharing their beliefs in a game? No offense, but how the heck did you make that jump in logic?

jasoncyrus:I ave two (technically one) word for that guild Perma-ban. Not because they are religious or are recruiting their fellow religion peoples into a guild. But because they feel it is their DUTY to convert people to their religion. People have been murdered IRL for this before, I honestly don't want to hear about some anti christian nut walking into their IRL guild meeting and gunning them all down, then we'll be upto our necks in people spouting that gamers hate religion.

To re-iterate. religious guild, fine. Recruiting for said guild, fine. Attempting conversion at the same time, not so fine. I know a *lot* of people, religious and non religious that get rather...upset to say the least when some from any belief system tries to convert them to something else.

They need to take a lesson from my best female friend in the world. She is an avid christian and for fun we sometimes have religious debates to try and shake the other person's views and to clears things up a bit. I admit i have learned much about the lighter side of christianity and she has also learned much about its horrific skeletons in the closet.

But my point is, since i'm getting off track a little. That unless i ask her about it...she doesn't even *mention* it. Thats why I adore her =) Unlike the people in this artcile -.- these folk just need to learn the meaning of hush. (wow I actually managed to write that without saying anything incredible antichristian, must be because some nice person handed in my lost wallet^_^...although they did pinch all the change out of it -.-)

Hah, you remind me of one of my guy friends. We do the exact same thing. But he's much smarter than me, so I can't defend my faith too well against him without just, you know, having "faith" in it. XD But it's good to learn about the bad side of things too.

Thou iam not religious in ant scene of the word I would find it hard to bring a religion from the real world into a virtual one just from the aspects of emersion.

For instance in most games there are a set of gods or higher-beings that you as a player gains there power from for guild wars it's the 6 gods and for WOW its the light, nature, the arcane, demons ect. As a player I would see bring a real world religion into a game as being detrimental to the over all enjoyment to the game.

Interesting article. But that Bible speak never ceases to creep me the hell out, for some reason. I know not why.

Edit: Also, I think it's really cool to see the stuff that goes on in the forums translated into themes of the Escapist magazine. Like we had a period where there were a lot of threads about griefers, then a few weeks later we had a bunch of articles about griefing. It's nice to see a website so in touch with its audience.

Urgh. More loonies believing that a zombie who died for "sins" they didn't commit and wants them to eat his flesh and drink his blood polluting the interwebs.

Well, I guess as long as they don't bother trying to convert me by bringing up their shit, I won't bring mine.

Which reminds me, I need to fill a plastic bag with soda or some other white powder resembling drugs and wear upside down cross every time I take my bus. Those fucking religious cultists were annoying, but the other guys who for some reason think that I'm a hardcore drug addict (by just looking at me on a bus stop. And No, I don't do crack or any drug for that matteR) are plain annoying.

Blergh.

But then again, my closest friend is a christian - don't think an avid one, but I'm pretty sure that she is - and we get along fine.

that doesn't mean they don't do it. It's a key feature of the fundamentalist mindset, and very few mainstream christians are like that. It's a position of intellectually vapid arrogance, and people who display that mindset are the kind of people I enjoy punching in the face.

There is a world of difference between rejecting the possibility of being wrong out of hand, and actually believing what you say. I'm quibbling with you over the latter. If you don't think you're right, then why in the world do you believe what you believe? Or are you an atheist (or whatever) because that's what you were raised to be, too?

But my point is, since i'm getting off track a little. That unless i ask her about it...she doesn't even *mention* it. Thats why I adore her =) Unlike the people in this artcile

... and I'm going to stop you right there. I honestly don't know why so many people seem to be missing this, but I made a point of pointing out that the members of this guild don't share anything about their beliefs unless someone asks them. The only reason people like Kaddy Lynn and Toph shared soo much with me is because I actively asked for an audience with their guild so I could ask them all of these questions.

These people are exactly like your best female friend in the world. They have strong beliefs but they don't share them unless someone actually expresses an interest first. They don't actively and openly preach and by extension they sure as hell don't try to actively convert anyone. The only example I heard of anyone from Mark Fifteen Sixteen "saving" anyone was the account from Toph, and because I quoted him word for word you can see from his account that what happened there happened entirely by accident or chance.

Now that we've discussed that bit nice and reasonably, I can now feel good about asking this: getting murdered in real life for sharing their beliefs in a game? No offense, but how the heck did you make that jump in logic?

Well as the article stated this particular paragraph:

Kaddy describes her identity in religious terms, "Misused and blighted as the term is these days, we are Crusaders. Mark 16:15, again. We are ordered to do this. To not do this would be like spitting on Jesus. After what He's sacrificed for us, and asked this one thing primarily, to tell others about him, how can we not? For someone who isn't Christian, they probably won't understand. It's not zealous fanaticism and it's not radical fundamentalism or anything like that. It's simply what we're called to do."

Now correct me if i'm wrong but...that sounds rather a lot like they will take the opportunity to convert someone if it comes along. In my honest opinion the only time this opportunity is valid is if the other person says 'i'm thinking of converting to christianity'. If they just want info then it's rather offensive to try and convert said person.

As for the murder, a'll give a very quick and simple example.

I assume you have heard of the kid who was so obssessed with gaming her killed a dude for money to fund the habit.

But my point is, since i'm getting off track a little. That unless i ask her about it...she doesn't even *mention* it. Thats why I adore her =) Unlike the people in this artcile

... and I'm going to stop you right there. I honestly don't know why so many people seem to be missing this, but I made a point of pointing out that the members of this guild don't share anything about their beliefs unless someone asks them. The only reason people like Kaddy Lynn and Toph shared soo much with me is because I actively asked for an audience with their guild so I could ask them all of these questions.

These people are exactly like your best female friend in the world. They have strong beliefs but they don't share them unless someone actually expresses an interest first. They don't actively and openly preach and by extension they sure as hell don't try to actively convert anyone. The only example I heard of anyone from Mark Fifteen Sixteen "saving" anyone was the account from Toph, and because I quoted him word for word you can see from his account that what happened there happened entirely by accident or chance.

Now that we've discussed that bit nice and reasonably, I can now feel good about asking this: getting murdered in real life for sharing their beliefs in a game? No offense, but how the heck did you make that jump in logic?

Well as the article stated this particular paragraph:

Kaddy describes her identity in religious terms, "Misused and blighted as the term is these days, we are Crusaders. Mark 16:15, again. We are ordered to do this. To not do this would be like spitting on Jesus. After what He's sacrificed for us, and asked this one thing primarily, to tell others about him, how can we not? For someone who isn't Christian, they probably won't understand. It's not zealous fanaticism and it's not radical fundamentalism or anything like that. It's simply what we're called to do."

Now correct me if i'm wrong but...that sounds rather a lot like they will take the opportunity to convert someone if it comes along. In my honest opinion the only time this opportunity is valid is if the other person says 'i'm thinking of converting to christianity'. If they just want info then it's rather offensive to try and convert said person.

but you have to read the next paragraph. You can always make assumptions when you only ingest part of the info.

that doesn't mean they don't do it. It's a key feature of the fundamentalist mindset, and very few mainstream christians are like that. It's a position of intellectually vapid arrogance, and people who display that mindset are the kind of people I enjoy punching in the face.

There is a world of difference between rejecting the possibility of being wrong out of hand, and actually believing what you say. I'm quibbling with you over the latter. If you don't think you're right, then why in the world do you believe what you believe? Or are you an atheist (or whatever) because that's what you were raised to be, too?

I disbelieve god, sure. I'm fairly certain that there isn't a god, because the evidence is stacked so heavily against it. But I'm not an arrogant dick. I realize I don't know everythign for certain, and I openly acknowledge that there's a chance I could be wrong. People like these "missionaries" claim to know. They "know" absolutely that they are right, and nothing will ever prove them wrong. The fact of the matter is that they can't possibly know that. it's not feasible to be able to say for certain that there is or isn't a god. It takes a special kind of arrogance to claim knowledge that you cannot possibly posess, and I don't like people who are that overwhelmingly arrogant.

Don't get me wrong, interesting article, it's good to shed light on different facets of the gamer culture, but let's start here:

"We are ordered to do this. To not do this would be like spitting on Jesus. After what He's sacrificed for us, and asked this one thing primarily, to tell others about him, how can we not? For someone who isn't Christian, they probably won't understand. It's not zealous fanaticism and it's not radical fundamentalism or anything like that. It's simply what we're called to do."

That's neat, but it conflicts with this

"Despite how passionately she speaks about the subject, Kaddy is quick to point out that the guild's members don't try to actively recruit anyone to their faith. "Respecting that some people do not 'appreciate' Christianity, we don't exactly go spamming Bible verses, but we do let people know what we are about, and allow them to come to us if they feel an interest." Despite the ambivalence towards outright proselytizing, it's clear from other guild members' testimony that conversion is a valued part of their interactions with other people in the game."

What they say they're doing and what they're actually doing is probably in conflict. Not to them, of course. But when you've got people saying things like;

To not tell people about Jesus is equal to spitting on him--but in no way is the mission I'm on zealotry! However, I'm still going to let everyone know exactly what I'm about, whether they want to know or not because I am on a mission from God.

This tells me that they probably aren't as unobtrusive about their beliefs as this article might lead one to believe. Hell, the very NEXT paragraph in the article is about how one of their members 'saved' someone, apparently by chance from their Wiccan beliefs. (Note; most people of faith don't believe that someone else needs to be 'saved' from their differing beliefs.) But how do two utter strangers end up talking about faith--unless, of course, one person is actively bringing it up?

I appreciate they have convictions. I just don't think they're as honest about their actions as one might think.

Smokescreen:I appreciate they have convictions. I just don't think they're as honest about their actions as one might think.

I could make a*really* nasty comment...but i wont coz i dont wanna get another suspension -.-

But i will say this. Who in this world IS as honest about their actions as we might think?

Aside from serial killers with no concious i mean.

Considering how they're presented in this article, I think that pointing out the schism between their words here and their actions is appropriate. And I certainly think that it's entirely possible to be truthful about your actions, but it's also the job of a reporter to consider getting the perspective of other people who have interacted with these gamers, and see if what they're saying holds up.

However, I don't believe that hypocrisy is the problem as much as compassion is. Being on a mission to convince people to believe as you do is the position of someone who fails to understand that with just a nudge one way or another, it could be them who is the 'other'. And those others might just be happy. Or right.

zoozilla:It's pretty unfortunate that Christians have acquired such a bad reputation. Yes, the Crusades were horrible, but they're quite literally ancient history now; Christianity has changed a great deal.

Funny how people argue that Christians are generally evil because they don't tolerate other beliefs. The irony is astounding.

Um...nope, it's pretty much the exact same institution now that once advocated 'purging the barbarians from the Holy Land' and as an A level history student I can quote that from the pope Urban II of the time. It is the exact same church and is equally xenophobic and persecuting, just more cowardly.

xtreme_phoenix:this Kaddy lady sounds like the kind of person I wouldn't be against punching in the face if given the opportunity. Seriously "we're not fundamentalists or anything, we're just people who go around telling other people how the should live their lives, because they are wrong about everything and are going to burn in hell for not believing what we believe."

don't you love it when fundies contradict themselves?

First off: I'm an atheist. This is important for your understanding of the rest of what I say.

They weren't telling people how to live their lives, they were just recruiting a bunch of Guild wars players. They may be fundamentalists (to a small degree; I can't see these people getting violent about religion) but they are not deserving of that much hatred, either from you or the Guild wars community.

However, what I do think is a little odd is that they feel that not recruiting is "like spitting on Jesus". They're taking the bible quite a bit too literally there for their own good.

that doesn't mean they don't do it. It's a key feature of the fundamentalist mindset, and very few mainstream christians are like that. It's a position of intellectually vapid arrogance, and people who display that mindset are the kind of people I enjoy punching in the face.

There is a world of difference between rejecting the possibility of being wrong out of hand, and actually believing what you say. I'm quibbling with you over the latter. If you don't think you're right, then why in the world do you believe what you believe? Or are you an atheist (or whatever) because that's what you were raised to be, too?

I disbelieve god, sure. I'm fairly certain that there isn't a god, because the evidence is stacked so heavily against it. But I'm not an arrogant dick. I realize I don't know everythign for certain, and I openly acknowledge that there's a chance I could be wrong. People like these "missionaries" claim to know. They "know" absolutely that they are right, and nothing will ever prove them wrong. The fact of the matter is that they can't possibly know that. it's not feasible to be able to say for certain that there is or isn't a god. It takes a special kind of arrogance to claim knowledge that you cannot possibly posess, and I don't like people who are that overwhelmingly arrogant.

At this point, we are only guessing how they really feel. I would surmise, though, that most Christians are aware of the possibility but nevertheless live and act under their beliefs. I am going to defend the right for a Muslim, atheist, or Christian to act as though their beliefs are their beliefs, and if that means telling other people what they think, then we should not begrudge them. You have as much of a right to piss on theology in public as they do to defend their faith or share it - especially if their beliefs are such that sharing is a good idea. (If non-believers are going to hell, what kind of believer wouldn't try to convert somehow?)

Flytch:"Misused and blighted as the term is these days, we are Crusaders.'

Ahem, a Crusade is a holy war, so they are preaching war against us atheists and agnostics?

Ignorance is rife it seems.

Yes, ignorance is rife in many places, in this case your own comments being chief among them. That type of comment is exactly what Kaddy Lynn was referring to during the interview.

Dictionary Definitions:

cru·sad'er n.

a disputant who advocates reform

a warrior who engages in a holy war

cru·sade n.

often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.

A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.

A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.

Now, you may end up crying "nickpicking" at this argument, but the truth is that "crusader" actually does have a meaning besides someone that kills people in the name of a religion. Going off of the two definitions that I bolded above a crusader can technically be any person advocating some type of reform for any kind of cause. This can include anyone from civil rights activists, political reformers and lobbyists, activists, volunteers for charity and goodwill organizations and yes, even your run-of-the-mill religious follower just willing to spread their beliefs. Hell, by that definition members of PETA are technically crusaders.

Also on that note any type of foundation, organization or activist movement can be dubbed a "crusade" because it is a group of people with like minded beliefs pushing for some kind of change in their given cause. Sure, the Crusades into the Holy Lands fall under this definition because everyone involved was working towards the singular goal of capturing the aforementioned Holy Land, but the Civil Rights Movement in the 50' and 60' was also a crusade because it's member's combined goal was to get equal rights for African-Americans.

I kindly suggest that before you cry "ignorance" as someone else's beliefs that you look and examine your own first before you bother to voice them.

Look games aren't for lames. If you are a lame, just don't play. If you know your child is crazy and is going to kill someone, then don't allow him or her to play games. Lock em up. Or just don't have kids and enjoy games, that's what I say.

Flytch:"Misused and blighted as the term is these days, we are Crusaders.'

Ahem, a Crusade is a holy war, so they are preaching war against us atheists and agnostics?

Ignorance is rife it seems.

Yes, ignorance is rife in many places, in this case your own comments being chief among them. That type of comment is exactly what Kaddy Lynn was referring to during the interview.

Dictionary Definitions:

cru·sad'er n.

a disputant who advocates reform

a warrior who engages in a holy war

cru·sade n.

often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.

A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.

A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.

Now, you may end up crying "nickpicking" at this argument, but the truth is that "crusader" actually does have a meaning besides someone that kills people in the name of a religion. Going off of the two definitions that I bolded above a crusader can technically be any person advocating some type of reform for any kind of cause. This can include anyone from civil rights activists, political reformers and lobbyists, activists, volunteers for charity and goodwill organizations and yes, even your run-of-the-mill religious follower just willing to spread their beliefs. Hell, by that definition members of PETA are technically crusaders.

Also on that note any type of foundation, organization or activist movement can be dubbed a "crusade" because it is a group of people with like minded beliefs pushing for some kind of change in their given cause. Sure, the Crusades into the Holy Lands fall under this definition because everyone involved was working towards the singular goal of capturing the aforementioned Holy Land, but the Civil Rights Movement in the 50' and 60' was also a crusade because it's member's combined goal was to get equal rights for African-Americans.

I kindly suggest that before you cry "ignorance" as someone else's beliefs that you look and examine your own first before you bother to voice them.

~Van

The term was first used to describe a holy WAR against the percieved infidels of the holy land, the repercussions of which are still being felt as our troops die in the East.

Hello everyone my name is Josh founder and leader of the [FoC] Followers Of Christ alliance and ministry. I don't really want to add on to any comments that have been stated on this thread. I believe the article, being written from a player who was not a member of our guild, was executed fairly and excellently. I just wanted to open up myself to be more available to those of this website via other means. If you want more information please view our wiki page at:

Feel free to contact me on any of the listed services at any time for any reason, as long as you are reasonable.

I also wanted to just give a personal thanks to the author for this ministry tool and hope your future articles go well.

The only thing I will post on here about the article is in support of Kaddy and this whole "spitting" ordeal. It seems many of you here find that statement to be an overstatement. I think not. Think how many of the people who have posted on this thread have just spit on Jesus right now that don't even follow Him. That is clearly their choice, just pointing out that Kaddy should not be spit upon herself for making a comment that is clearly true according to the Bible. It didn't have to even be about recruiting. She could have said that Jesus is the way, truth, and life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him and for anyone to not to believe so as a Christian would be like spitting on Jesus. If you need anything please contact me. God bless, Josh.

RagnorakTres:Basically, what I'm trying (and kind of failing) to get at here is that everyone is different, and thus everyone should be allowed to define their own moral code.

Define their own morale code? OK so pedophiles will define their own morale code and rape children. According to your system that's OK. All law is morality. When we make laws against murder we impose our morality on the murderer (or for abortion we impose morality on the anti-abortionist). You may want to rethink your stance there.

xtreme_phoenix:in all seriousness, and putting grammatical errors aside, they are fundies. only fundies speak in terms of absolute certainty like these people do. in the quotes you put down they say a lot of things that only fundamentalists would say, and kaddy in particular talked about genesis as though it was factual (a trait exclusive to the fundies.) They may be polite fundies, but the fact that they claim to know instead of believe makes them arrogant fundies, the exact kind of fundy that always tempts me to punch them in the face.

It sounds like you speak in absolute certainties yourself. Can I punch you in the face? In all seriousness.

zoozilla:Funny how people argue that Christians are generally evil because they don't tolerate other beliefs. The irony is astounding.

Yes, the tyranny of tolerance.

xtreme_phoenix: I disbelieve god, sure. I'm fairly certain that there isn't a god, because the evidence is stacked so heavily against it. But I'm not an arrogant dick. I realize I don't know everythign for certain, and I openly acknowledge that there's a chance I could be wrong. People like these "missionaries" claim to know. They "know" absolutely that they are right, and nothing will ever prove them wrong. The fact of the matter is that they can't possibly know that. it's not feasible to be able to say for certain that there is or isn't a god. It takes a special kind of arrogance to claim knowledge that you cannot possibly posess, and I don't like people who are that overwhelmingly arrogant.

I can't say if your arrogant but you certainly have acted the dick on this thread. Its just as easy to argue that the evidence is stacked for the God of the Bible. The difference isn't evidence but framework.

Feel free to message me if you are interested in carrying on the conversation.

RagnorakTres:Basically, what I'm trying (and kind of failing) to get at here is that everyone is different, and thus everyone should be allowed to define their own moral code.

Define their own morale code? OK so pedophiles will define their own morale code and rape children. According to your system that's OK. All law is morality. When we make laws against murder we impose our morality on the murderer (or for abortion we impose morality on the anti-abortionist). You may want to rethink your stance there.

actually, laws are by their nature not based on morals at all. Good laws are simply rules that, when enforced, allow for every person in a society to be safe, and more specifically, that prevent us from harming others (I can't kill you, you can't kill me, I can't take from you, you can't take from me. I can't rape your kid, you can't beat me up for suggesting that I might rape your kid, etc.) That's not based on any moral code, but a general selfish desire to avoid harm, combined with the realization that in order to get that you have to sacrifice your right to do the same. Logic, not morality, is what the best laws are based upon. it's laws that are based on individual morality (such as laws against drug use, homosexuality, free speech, and abortion) that inevitably fail.

What is moral differs between individuals. right and wrong are subjective concepts.

So you may want to rethink your stance, pal, because as far as I can tell, ragnorak tres is spot on.

While it would be a bit exaggerated to call it "evolution" it's certainly some sort of a development. I've heard of religious guilds in text-based MMOs, there are also nationality-based guilds (quite a few more) and even guilds of graphic artists. If those guilds strive for the better attitude of their members, all the better for them. The only problem I'd have with them, as an atheist, would be to get recruited personally, but that hasn't happened so far, and if it does happen, I'd be dealing reasonably with people, no insults.

I like how, in WarHammer 40k, it isn't the religion of the enemy that's forcing you to fight them (except the Chaos guys), it's your religion. Hooray for being a religious zealot in the name of the Emperor!

zoozilla:It's pretty unfortunate that Christians have acquired such a bad reputation. Yes, the Crusades were horrible, but they're quite literally ancient history now; Christianity has changed a great deal.

Funny how people argue that Christians are generally evil because they don't tolerate other beliefs. The irony is astounding.

Atheists seem really good at being intolerant and hypocritical. It's why I get along a lot better with agnostics.

The former has to force their "truth" down your throat, or treat you in contempt if you disagree with them.

The latter largely does their own thing and lets everyone else do likewise.

Come to think of it I don't think I have ever gotten along even remotely well with someone who labels themselves an atheist.

Hell, even if some lightly pushy, but still deserving of the title, Christians pester you any. It's because they care and think something bad is going to happen to you now, or in eternity if you don't go along the Christian path.

A lot better than just about every atheist I have ever talked to, which largely seem pretentious,arrogant(that may be redundant),self-absorbed,spiteful and ill-mannered.

They really seem to see people who are happy believing that their life actually has meaning, and they can't stand that. Everyone has to be just as miserable and "enlightened" as they are.

Not sure if I'm really a Christian anymore, but I will never be an atheist. I'm proud of that.