Monday, November 16, 2015

Not that anyone here will be surprised, but it looks as if the GOP establishment has given up on Jeb!

Marco Rubio, moving to capitalize on a wave of momentum in the Republican primary, will host a Capitol Hill fundraiser on Monday that will draw an influx of new supporters.

Around 70 of Rubio’s financial backers are listed on the event invitation — over half of whom, organizers say, signed on with the senator after last month’s Boulder debate. The fundraiser, which will draw lobbyists, bundlers, and several members of Congress, is expected to net around $200,000.

Monday’s fundraiser was initially going to be held at a Washington, D.C. townhouse, but organizers moved it to the Capitol Hill Club — where a large room has been rented out — after the RSVP list began to swell.

Among the names listed on the invitation, who are relatively new to Rubio’s fold, are Peter Davidson, a Verizon lobbyist; Christopher Chapel, a NextEra Energy lobbyist; Russ Thomasson, a former top staffer to Texas Sen. John Cornyn; and Mathew Lapinski, a lobbyist at Crossroads Strategies.

The GOP elite must be freaking out now that the Paris attacks have driven up Donald Trump's support to 42 percent. They're moving to Plan B faster than I had anticipated prior to the attacks.

Whether you like Donald Trump or not, whether you believe him or not, you have to admit that his response to the Paris attacks was easily the strongest and most forthright of any of the candidates in either party.

248 Comments:

Why does the GOP seem so hell-bent on putting forward an unelectable candidate? And I mean real unelectability, i.e. anyone who's not Trump? I would put forward Vince McMahon as my party's candidate if I thought he would make us win. It's not like the president has the final say on matter anyway. Sure, he can veto here and there, but the real sh*t happens behind the scenes. Or do they deliberately want to lose?

"Why does the GOP seem so hell-bent on putting forward an unelectable candidate? And I mean real unelectability, i.e. anyone who's not Trump? "

Oh this is such BS. Any one with any actual right wing cred will crush hillary. The only unelectable ones running are moderates. Cruz. Rand, Trump.. any of the three would beat hillary to a pulp in a general election.

That much, I agree with. I've been telling my co-workers that if he doesn't win now, it's going to be because Cruz or Carson moved far enough in his direction on immigration.

I still don't think that immigration is our biggest problem. But as far as foreign policy goes, I'm with you guys: we don't *have* an immigration policy if we don't control the border, and inviting Syrian refugees, especially given what has happened, is a very bad idea. Not as bad for us as it was for France; even in NYC there are more than a million people who have legal AR-15s and can shoot back (and Californians have more guns than the Chinese Army does, no joke). So even nominally 'gun-free' cities aren't quite as soft as France.

But all that really means is that they will use more bombs. Armed citizens are fair protection from armed terrorists, but they don't help against bombs.

I'll believe they're dumping Bush when he withdraws. Until then he has millions in ad buys spent in early primary states. He's regrouping while Rubio - a horribly flawed and easily destroyed candidate - takes the arrows for a while. Not much different than the Fiorina "surge" when she was heavily promoted. Trump hasn't really gone after him hard yet.

As I understand it, most major donors now pledge and dole out in installments so they can pull the plug if their guy tanks. That money can quickly shift back to Jeb! if/when needed.

@1 JP - because it's the Uni-party. They still have Hillary. She's already locked up more than half of the super-delegates. Which controlled stooge CAN they put up to counter Trump on the Republican side that can still organize and get on the ballots? They already put up literally a dozen useless candidates. If Hillary gets indicted then they MAY swallow their pride and back Cruz. But they absolutely would rather Hillary win than Trump.

And I believe that 42% poll was just post-debate, not post-Paris. The next polls should be interesting. Assuming they see the light of day.

Why, you think I'm being inconsistent? No, I just think that taxation and regulation is a much bigger domestic problem than immigration is. Illegal immigration is a big *foreign policy* threat, and it does need to be dealt with. But as for domestic policy, especially economic policy, I think we have bigger fish to fry. I also think that the domestic political effects of legal immigration would be quite muted if it weren't for the fact that we have so many white Marxists here.

Of course, foreign policy is *the President*'s job. So I'm very pleased to see Cruz and Paul moving in Trump's direction on that score.

And no, I'm not on any kind of psychoactive medication, and never have been.

I just think that taxation and regulation is a much bigger domestic problem than immigration is. Illegal immigration is a big *foreign policy* threat, and it does need to be dealt with.

You clearly haven't thought this through. Immigration is the bigger problem. It will make the problems with taxation and regulation worse than you ever imagined. The immigrants are, on average, to the left of the Democratic Party.

And being "illegal" does not make the immigrants any more of a threat. Stop being an intellectual coward and address your obvious ideological hangups.

I still don't think that immigration is our biggest problem. But as far as foreign policy goes, I'm with you guys: we don't *have* an immigration policy if we don't control the border, and inviting Syrian refugees, especially given what has happened, is a very bad idea. Not as bad for us as it was for France; even in NYC there are more than a million people who have legal AR-15s and can shoot back (and Californians have more guns than the Chinese Army does, no joke). So even nominally 'gun-free' cities aren't quite as soft as France.

Dude, you really are delusional. If you still can't see the primary importance of immigration to all other issues, then there's something wrong with your brain.

Also... Fucking AR 15's? In case it escaped your notice; terror attacks don't generally occur at your home, where your AR is in the gun cabinet. That would defeat the purpose of terrorism : to scare the public.

Leo, if you managed to fix taxation and regulaton but not immigration, the demographic tide will swamp the govt and change the taxation and regulation right back. Therefore, immigration is most important. Without fixing it, any other fix is politically impossible long term.

Actually I carry my pistol with me and 2 spare magazines everywhere I go. Started in December of last year. My boss's policy on guns is "don't tell me about it", so I haven't. I just want something bigger as well.

The immigrants are, on average, to the left of the Democratic Party.......Hmmm... You know, I don't really have an answer to that.

I'll believe the establishment has given up on Jeb when he pulls out of the race and throws his support to someone else. But Rubio is the closest thing they have to a Jeb substitute, so it does look like they're warming him up in the bullpen just in case.

"Taxation and regulation" are nice, safe, abstract issues that you can be right-wing on without much fear that someone will get in your face and call you a racist who wants to drown children. Immigration, on the other hand....

"My only problem is this: do I want an AR-15 or an AR-10? I don't exactly hate AKs, but I don't like how they look either."

Get an AR-15 or something that uses AR mags in 223. You want to be able to scavenge easily and 223 and AR mags are ubiquitous.

if terrorism is your actual worry though... you need two firearms... you need a CCW side arm that you keep on you at all times... and you need a truck gun. Something you don't mind getting beat up.. but provides more punch than a pistol. A Kel-Tec SU-16 C is an excellent option for a truck gun.. Folds up small and can sit in there forever. When ya need it though... its right there with 30 rounds of 223.

now.. the money is no object option: FN Five-Seven to carry... and an FN FS2000 in the truck. same ammo. Bullpup configuration is absolutely beautiful for CQB.

1) Got. Been carrying almost nonstop for almost a year, no plans to change that. The only thing that will change on that score is that I'm going to start carrying my 10mm sometimes if Florida gets open carry.

2) Everything I've seen says that ARs are better for home defense than shotguns are. Hence the question. Been considering a shotgun though.

3) Don't have a truck. I guess I could finally put the Archangel stock on my 91/30, cut down the barrel, and use that. But I've actually got quite a small sedan, so I'd have to cut it down to carbine size to make it fit.

"2) Everything I've seen says that ARs are better for home defense than shotguns are. Hence the question. Been considering a shotgun though."

Then what you've read is stupid. A well run shotgun is much better than an AR for home defense. the only thing better than a shotty for CQC is a bullpup. Home defense is by definition CQB.

"3) Don't have a truck. I guess I could finally put the Archangel stock on my 91/30, cut down the barrel, and use that. But I've actually got quite a small sedan, so I'd have to cut it down to carbine size to make it fit."

Truck Gun is just what we call it. the idea is a small rifle or shotgun that you keep in your vehicle. think Beretta Storm... kel-tec sub 2000 ... something between an FAL and a pistol that you don't mind getting beat up a little.

And apparently the DHS put out a report in 2007 that specifically listed the AR-15 as the *ideal* home defense weapon, because it had low enough recoil that most people could use it, held enough ammo to fend off even a fairly large attack, and 5.56mm is light and speedy enough to actually be turned aside by building materials, leading to a lower potential for collateral damage.

Birdshot is an ineffective homedef round, even at close range; I've seen the ballistics tests. It would *hurt*, but it wouldn't be lethal. So you need slugs or buckshot. And if you live a reasonably close distance from your neighbors, buckshot might travel all the way to their home. Or through a wall in your house to hit the rest of your family.

And even a good shotgun usually doesn't hold more than 5 shells. And I've fired a 12-gauge before; the recoil is not insignificant even for someone of my size. That, I read, is one reason why a lot of police forces have been replacing their patrol shotguns with AR-15s.

I've seen the ballistics tests. A lightweight 5.56 tends to fragment or simply be turned aside by building materials; not so much a shotshell. 5.56 has a high kinetic energy rating, but low mass, so it dumps all of its energy into the initial impact. Higher mass projectiles, like shotshell pellets, tend to retain their momentum for longer.

I'm using the Taylor KO formula as my guide; anything that gets a score over 5 is considered a likely wall-penetrator. That's why SWAT 9mm rounds used to run less than 80 grains; less likely to go through walls when they were sent into populated areas.

I'm 6'3" and weigh 270. The recoil was still noticeable (maybe I'm top-heavy?). Not painful (my brother in law's Savage Arms .300 Win Mag was painful), but quite noticeable. Probably it would be fine if I got a semi-auto, but with a pump action I really noticed the recoil. Not so much on my 9mm PCC.

"And apparently the DHS put out a report in 2007 that specifically listed the AR-15 as the *ideal* home defense weapon, because it had low enough recoil that most people could use it, held enough ammo to fend off even a fairly large attack, and 5.56mm is light and speedy enough to actually be turned aside by building materials, leading to a lower potential for collateral damage."

1) you're getting your information from the DHS? ... seriously?

2) No. no no no. AR's penetrate. You shoot an AR in bedroom... its going through the next two walls. It will be stopped when it hits brick. And that's about it. Also There are more choices than slugs, bird shot, and buck shot. Bird shot comes in many different sizes and to say its not effective because of ballistics tests if fucking retarded. We're talking about a 12 guage here. 7 shot will turn a human inside out inside of 20 feet. Capacity can be an issue but you can fix that fairly easily. Also... how many people do you think are attacking your house? even at 4 or 5 (which is about like getting struck by lightning in terms of odds) the shotty will handle it.

No. Shotty. Always get a shotty first for home defense.

Now.. again... if war fighting or terrorism is your actual main concern... then get the AR. If break ins are your concern... get the shotty.

even in NYC there are more than a million people who have legal AR-15s and can shoot back

It is guessed there are maybe 1 million total in the state, but maybe only a few hundred thousand, no one knows. There are less than 50,000 legal long guns in the city, only the connected like Trump are allowed to get licenses. NYC police have been buying them and training with them, but they aren't very good at using guns.

Let me give you guys the Capitol Hill/Beltway view of the GOP here so you understand their thinking. This city is the font of patronage, contracts, funding, positions, title and power. It's political world is completely insular. The details of procedural struggles of that day's action in the Senate is what they think is politics.

In their view, a loss to the Democrats is *catastrophic*, they almost cannot fathom the depth of the loss. All committee chairs, all majorities, all POWER, gone.

They think to themselves: do our voters not know what a disaster it would be? We have to give them a candidate who understands the real, day-to-day reality of the struggle for power and influence here, who knows what is at stake, that we can trust with management of the entire ediface, and also he has to be electable.

This impulse is shot-through with a COMPLETE acceptance of the world view of, say, the Washington Post. There is no dissent here, none (except for seven House members). For example: in my job, I have received a large number of inquiries from Congressional staff regarding constituent worries over where "refugees" are going to end up in the United States. Not one of these inquiries--not ONE, and most are from solid Red districts--wasn't prefaced with an apology to me (who they presumed is one of them) about the backwards views of their constituents.

In short, the Beltway GOP is a small group of powerful Washington insiders with little or no knowledge of anything beyond what the Post says. It's not only as bad as conservatives out there think it's WORSE. Very much worse.

5.56 has a high kinetic energy rating, but low mass, so it dumps all of its energy into the initial impact.

Only if you use expanding ammo. FMJ 5.56 is notoriously poor at stopping, unless you're lucky enough that the bullet breaks in two when it's turning from point first to rear first. Which is fairly likely at home defense ranges, see Dr. Martin Fackler's research for the details.

Whatever you decide to get, make sure you can get spares for it and that it will function reliably without regular maintenance and lubrication. IOW don't get a custom, "competition spec" rifle that seizes up if you breathe on it too hard or won't cycle because you're not using solid gold "brass" and platinum primers.

7 1/2 birdshot made a wound cavity only about 6 inches deep in bare ballistics gel. If the guy is wearing a leather jacket, or simply thick clothes, it won't go as deep. If he's very muscular, less still.Hitting him in the face is probably lethal, but not the torso. The FBI uses a 12" minimum in their testing for a reason.

http://www.us-shooter.com/5-56-nato-ballistic-gel-ammo-test/

12" with a 70gr bullet. Less penetration than a .45 ACP, and 55gr would penetrate a lot less. The initial damage is big, but 5.56 is intended for soft, wet targets like flesh.

@51 That was the estimate after they passed the SAFE Act, and basically no one showed up to register it. Maybe Manhattan doesn't have that many, but all of NYC is believed to.

"7 1/2 birdshot made a wound cavity only about 6 inches deep in bare ballistics gel. If the guy is wearing a leather jacket, or simply thick clothes, it won't go as deep. If he's very muscular, less still.Hitting him in the face is probably lethal, but not the torso. The FBI uses a 12" minimum in their testing for a reason."

I didn't say it was a bad choice. 12ga works very well. I'm just saying that my research says that 5.56 is better on a number of counts. 12ga buckshot or slugs is basically a guaranteed killshot on a human being if you hit him, no question. But at cross-room distances you aren't going to get much spread (everything I've seen says 1" spread for every yard of travel, so you might at most get a 3" spread indoors), so you have to aim it almost as much as you would a rifle, and if you do miss you are spending precious seconds manually cycling the next shell and re-acquiring the target.

@53 While I shook the dust of DC off my feet a few decades ago, your assessment echoes what mine was way back then. Before I joined the State Dept. I worked for a few different private groups headquartered in DC with numerous high-level corporate and government contacts. I was a new-born Republican and just beginning to explore conservative thought, and even then I suddenly found myself to the right of almost everyone I met.

There's no doubt the GOPe wants to win congress, and there's no doubt they will never back Trump. The question is which machinations they'll resort to in order to institute their plans, since the ground has already been prepared via various primary rules and delegates chosen by and pledged to the local GOP organizations (still filled with lots of earnest cucks).

Ask yourself a simple question. In a dark house at 0300, who is going to hang out when they know a 12 gauge is pointed their way? Who is going to stay and fight for your TV after they hear the sound of the 12 gauge being pumped or if the first round goes off?

You're right, I don't have any of these weapons. Hence why I do my research; I'd like to take advantage of other people's experiences with them.

It's also why I look at actual ballistics tests. The FBI announced last year that the .40 S&W no longer has any advantage over 9mm, because projectile technology has advanced to the point where 9mm now reliably expands, and the wound tracts that the two rounds make are no longer distinguishable. Obviously, a .40 still carries a lot more momentum than 9mm does, so if what you need is deep penetration you want to use a high-mass hardcast round, and you want the heavier .40. But if you are looking for a specific penetration depth, 9mm is more than good enough.

It's also why I look at Taylor scores instead of just kinetic energy; the Taylor KO score is intended to indicate how useful a projectile is for big-game hunting, and it takes impact momentum into account. 5.56mm gets a very low score precisely because it is a very lightweight, high velocity projectile that tends to tumble and fragment on impact with a hard target, especially if you use expanding rounds (which I would of course load my home rifle with). 12ga buckshot gets 20+ on the Taylor scale, whereas most 5.56 get less than 5. That's actually a lower score than the 9mm rounds that I carry in my CCW pistol.

Yes, I could easily be wrong. And so could my research. But it's all I've got to work with.

One last thing LEO... if you really believe the 5.56 penetration numbers... then why are you even considering getting an AR? Because by those numbers alone, the AR would be completely inadequate for any kind of actual battle. Look at the FBI standards for penetration. They require 12 to 18 inches. Your 5.56 doesn't get there.

Romney got 26% if the Hispanic vote, the magic number for a establishment GOP candidate is 47%. Trump might make up for this somewhere else, but it's the rest have to get to this number to have a chance. Demographic doom for a GOP presidency may already be at hand.

Yes, I could easily be wrong. And so could my research. But it's all I've got to work with.

@WKL

It's not all you have to work with.

You just asked advice from someone who knows infinitely more than you could ever hope to learn in a hundred lifetimes. Time to shut up and do what Nate and others advised, if not for the simple fact that they are obviously more knowledgeable than you are.

Sure. That exact subject, the "are they scared by the sound of a shell being racked" one, comes up a lot in these kinds of discussions on gun forums. The general consensus that I've seen is that they might be frightened by it, but you still shouldn't do it for 2 reasons: 1) if you are doing it *after* they're in your house, it means your shotgun didn't have a shell in the chamber already (which is bad, cause you aren't fully loaded now) or that you just cycled a live shell (which is worse), and 2) it gives away your position.

If it's just a random, sober criminal, the latter issue is moot: suddenly they know there is armed resistance in the house, and they ARE likely to be scared off. But not all criminals burglarize sober; if he's on something that deadens the fear response, then he knows where you are, and he's not scared by the fact that you've got a shotgun.

Most of the gun forums simply don't consider that to be a tactical advantage against your hypothetical 3am home invader.

"Most of the gun forums simply don't consider that to be a tactical advantage against your hypothetical 3am home invader."

Do you realize you're simultaneously arguing that a shotty isn't good for home defense because it only penetrates 6 inches into ballistics gel... and an AR is good for home defense because it only penetrates 6 inches into ballistics gel?

Look LEO... If you actually believe this data... you need to get a .308. Because what you are really arguing is that the AR-15 (actually anything in 5.56) is unsuitable for human targets. And you should know there are lots of guys out there that agree with you. STG insists on .308 as does Luke.

When you pull the trigger on an AR, ONE BULLET penetrates 6 inches into ballistic gel. Now ask yourself how many shotgun pellets for that same solitary trigger pull will be penetrating 6 inches into that ballistic gel?

and if you do miss you are spending precious seconds manually cycling the next shell and re-acquiring the target.

Don't worry about that. I'm not even a contender at our local club and I can get off three on-target shots with my pump action in about 2 seconds. If you stack a couple steel plates, I could possibly squeeze in 5 shots in just over 3 seconds. Granted, the plates are close together and stationary, but still. A bit of practice will do wonders. Also, you can practice not losing your target while cycling. The best exercise I've found is shooting double traps with it. You're forced to focus on the clays instead of the gun.

And that's also not the argument I'm making. 5.56 and shotshells are both perfectly adequate against soft, wet targets like flesh, leather, and cloth. It's their performance against dry, hard targets like wood, drywall and concrete that interest me, which the tests say are very different from their performance against flesh.

My research says that buckshot, birdshot and 5.56 will all penetrate building materials, but the 5.56 won't do *as well*. And the birdshot is insufficiently lethal against a human target.

The first thing is to figure out what kind of money you want to spend. In general, the AR-15 has become the standard - you can get parts and ammunition just about everywhere. The S&W isn't the best on the market, but it's a solid piece at a reasonable price. Colts are normally GTG.

I'd then recommend an optic. Aimpoints are the standard for red dot sights, scopes are a toss-up. You get what you pay for, though.

Again, only if the burglar is sober (in which case, yes, he will be scared of you). And even then, either that means your 4+1 shotgun is only holding 4, or else it had 5 but you've just cycled a live shell out. So (rephrasing) it's not a net tactical advantage, since you are still out 1 shell whether he's sober or not.

I bought a cheap red dot for my MechTech CCU. It works pretty well, but I haven't given it any kind of extensive testing. The forums say the primary drawback is the battery life; these are supposed to hold a zero very well under recoil.

If I was looking at buying a long arm for general purpose self defense my first choice would be a 16-18 inch barreled AR-15 with a 1-4X AR specific scope on top of it. If you don't like the scope put an Aimpoint or an Eotech on it. Buy about 10 high quality magazines and shoot the hell out of it. Go with a basic model at first and figure out what you want to change (if anything).IMO the only bad thing about a M4 clone for indoor use is the muzzle blast is obnoxious indoors (even with double ear protection). If you have a wife or girlfriend they will most likely be more comfortable shooting the AR which means they will shoot it more.

I asked for people's opinion on AR-15 or AR-10 as a primary rifle. Home defense wasn't the original topic and it wasn't what I asked about. I'm not telling anyone anything; I said "this is what my research has lead me to believe", that's all.

My research could easily be wrong, but I'm the kind of person who responds specifically to what a person says. For example, Nate said "birdshot will turn a human being inside out at 20 feet". It won't, and the actual tests say it's not a very lethal round at any range against a human being. Hence my respond; I actually looked into using birdshot previously.

I had no intention of starting a long argument about home defense weapons. All I wanted to know was whether people here favored 5.56mm over .308 as an all-purpose rifle.

Yes, and we used to call them "poodle shooters". At one time, I owned enough FALs to outfit a rifle platoon. In the Obama gun scare, I sold most of them for 3x or 4x what I had in them. I kept a few of the choice ones. The really neat thing about FALs which is superior to M1A/M14 & HK, is that, with a bench vise and a few basic hand tools, you can totally rebuild one. You can do that with an AR10 derivative too, which makes me wonder why I don't have one yet. I will probably go the Palmetto State Armory route, as I like to brew my own.

But the AR15 is a good choice, because the parts and magazines are so doggone plentiful. And I agree on the shotgun, as long as you keep it simple and forego the geegaws.

Back on topic:

Out of all the GOP candidates, I think I like Cruz the best, and the party overlords stacked the deck against him from the start. I think he and Trump scare the crap out of the GOP elite. Neither one of them are pandering to the concept of watering down the white population in the USA with either legal or illegal migrants.

Yes, and we used to call them "poodle shooters". At one time, I owned enough FALs to outfit a rifle platoon. In the Obama gun scare, I sold most of them for 3x or 4x what I had in them. I kept a few of the choice ones. The really neat thing about FALs which is superior to M1A/M14 & HK, is that, with a bench vise and a few basic hand tools, you can totally rebuild one. You can do that with an AR10 derivative too, which makes me wonder why I don't have one yet. I will probably go the Palmetto State Armory route, as I like to brew my own.

But the AR15 is a good choice, because the parts and magazines are so doggone plentiful. And I agree on the shotgun, as long as you keep it simple and forego the geegaws.

Back on topic:

Out of all the GOP candidates, I think I like Cruz the best, and the party overlords stacked the deck against him from the start. I think he and Trump scare the crap out of the GOP elite. Neither one of them are pandering to the concept of watering down the white population in the USA with either legal or illegal migrants.

Yes, most 9mm rounds will make nice holes in cinder blocks, but many of those that make big holes in cinder blocks perform poorly against wet targets. I'm aware that few firearms will fail to break cinder blocks; but I can break a cinder block with a good kick (I've done it before, wearing my work boots). I have no doubt that birdshot will shatter a cinderblock quite well.

Bird shot won't do much beyond about 8 yards. But under 8 yards, it keeps together pretty well. And 8 yards is pretty interesting because it seems to be the exact distance out of my shotgun where the bird shot starts to really spread out. Under 8, the grouping is about the size of a tennis ball. If you know how armor-piercing rounds work, you'll understand that while the birdshot is nice and tightly grouped, you'll get great penetration. Now, that being said, I'd rather have SSG(000 Buck) or SG(00 Buck) because they punch harder and at greater distances. Or if you're one of those people, you can turn birdshot into paraffin slugs. Youtube has the details.

"if you do want an AR... a good starter is the Smith and Wesson M&P 15"

The Ruger AR-556 is a better rifle at roughly the same price point. Plus it isn't made in Massachusetts.

"Stopping power + less wall penetration. Shotgun is devastating and less likely to miss when you're up close and under stress."

Check out the Box o' Truth website, about the only rounds that won't penetrate through multiple sheet rock walls are the light birdshot rounds. Handguns, rifles and shotguns using buckshot and slugs will all travel through several rooms. The 5.56 will penetrate, but by the last room it will be going at all kind of crazy angles.

On the original topic, WaPo says that all of the GOP candidates are now taking an anti-refugee stance. Cruz and Jeb are both cool with Christian refugees, but Rubio and Carson are saying no to them, and Trump is saying "no, and kick all the ones we've already got out". And apparently even Hillary was forced to acknowledge the need for "safeguards". She still wants to take all of them though.

So, there's that. I think religious Christians are more likely to respond to Cruz's position, but that remains to be seen. And Rubio's is pretty ironic given his stance on illegal immigration.

It means it's a much bigger problem that I originally believed, and I now agree that it is our biggest long term domestic political problem. Like with gun laws, it's the crux on which many other issues move. Kicking all the people who've immigrated in the last 20 years out won't fix our problems - cause we've still got so many domestic Marxists - but not getting a serious handle on immigration is going to make things worse.

Agreed, most of them are much further to the left than the average liberal Democrat is. And that's bad. How much of that will transfer to their kids (the ones who will actually be able to legally vote) is hard to say, but even if the kids do move to the Right (which apparently does happen), they aren't likely to pass the Democratic average, so they simply won't move far enough.

Had conservatives made a determined effort in the late 60s to get immigrants to assimilate, we might not be in this situation. In which case, it would be Democrats who called for less immigration. But they didn't, so even if it might have worked, now it's largely moot; it's too late for that.

Rabbi BYou just asked advice from someone who knows infinitely more than you could ever hope to learn in a hundred lifetimes. Time to shut up and do what Nate and others advised, if not for the simple fact that they are obviously more knowledgeable than you are.This is what the society of isolation means: You not only forget who your friends are, but what it means to have them, trust them and rely on them.

No, I just think that taxation and regulation is a much bigger domestic problem than immigration is.

The left wants low IQ 3rd worlders because they know IQ is mostly genetic and their spawn will vote for the party of more free stuff. Basically stupid, more violent, more sex crime leeches. If AMNESTY PASSES MEXICANS WILL COLLECT SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY FOR NO SPEAK ENGLISH JUST LIKE PUERTO RICANS. Many ERs along the border closed because they couldn't afford to keep giving out free care.

But all that really means is that they will use more bombs. Armed citizens are fair protection from armed terrorists, but they don't help against bombs.

This is where IQ matters, there are only a few moslems in the world smart enough to make them from scratch without blowing themselves up.

And no, I'm not on any kind of psychoactive medication, and never have been.

There are plenty of regular meds with psycho side effects, are you taking birth control pills?

Trump my WAG 50%, see his comment on the makeup of the migrants

The EU migrants have a larger proportion of fighting age men than the bathhouses. The only one arrested at the border during the kindervasion was a blond Cambridge graduate that was married to a US marine. If there was another Elian Gonzalez they would send jackboots to deport him again.

even in NYC there are more than a million people who have legal AR-15s and can shoot back

Kill one of the lefts pet minorities and see how NYC is. Leftists cried for moslems before the Paris bodies stopped bleeding. I highly doubt your number, but the problem is even I can not concealed carry an AR-15 especially sitting down at the theatre. To get a NYC CCW you have to pay a bribe of more than the cost of a house free and clear in a more reasonable market.

"My only problem is this: do I want an AR-15 or an AR-10? I don't exactly hate AKs, but I don't like how they look either."

They make paint and coatings for guns, I know a nurse that had her pistol done in pink for breast cancer awareness. You can even get Hello Kitty on them.

Everything I've seen says that ARs are better for home defense than shotguns are. Hence the question. Been considering a shotgun though

Use the AR to shoot them as they enter your 300+ yard long drive way, & the shot gun for up close.

Something else I realize: it's really, really ironic that the ARI has basically taken a pro-immigrant (bordering on open-borders in many cases) stance given how much Ayn Rand disparaged the domestic cultures of the 3rd World, and even of Europe. She said that most people outside of America tended to be highly envious and resentful of successful people, whereas Americans tended to admire it.

This kind of attitude, in my view, would tend to engender a desire for progressive taxation, on the notion that it hurts successful people and prevents them from becoming wealthy in the first place. She believed that precisely this admiration of success was why Communism had gotten so little public support in America compared to elsewhere; it depends on this kind of emotional response, and Americans simply weren't obliging. That OWS managed to popularize "1%" talk as much as they did is troubling.

I think there are "Americans-born-elsewhere" to be found in most nations, but the fact is that they represent far too small of a proportion of those nations for us to have any kind of general 'pro-immigration' policy. I've come to understand that it is true, but very misleading, that we are a nation of immigrants; the problem actually is that most of us immigrated from very specific places. We got the most rebellious portions of the Western European populations, which was basically sustainable, but even former Western colonies don't have a high proportion of the kind of people who would readily assimilate into our sociopolitical sphere.

In my view it's more like a Ford Mustang. You take the bone stock model and make it better.

Although arguably you should just go ahead and build your own from scratch. After you've replaced the sights, the trigger, the hand guards, lower receiver. the BCG and finally the barrel about the only thing left that is original to the rifle is the dust cover.

Upside! You now have enough spare parts to build a second AR.

Of course that gov trigger still sucks, so you have to replace that. And really who needs iron sights, so I'll upgrade those and while I'm at it I may as well swap out...

Over the past couple of days there were a lot of comments about Paris and how it couldn't happen in the USA there are too many guns. And yet we disarm ourselves...

How many MLS or NFS games have you been to this year? I've been to both and you absolutely cannot sneak a firearm into the stadium. For the NFL you cannot even sneak a 1" pen knife. For MLS you can hold a very thin pocket knife in your hand with your wallet and phone over your head as then scan your front/back with a wand.

The last 4 concerts I was at also had metal detectors. I had to return to my car to deposit my pistol and only snuck in a small knife due to scanner incompetence. Until we truly have a 2nd amendment, with no restrictions, and no license, we are at risk for the same mass atrocity.

It's not surprising that the GOP elite are abandoning Captain Kangaroo and getting behind little ricki.

Our modern high tech White created civilizations are like modern high tech automobiles. They're meant to be fueled by very light colored and highly refined gasoline, i.e. White people.However, black crude(africans) and partially refined fuel(various browns) are cheaper and improve the bottom line for the race traitoring CONservatives.

The racial capitalists and racial socialists profiteer on this inferior cruder fuel and don't give a rat's ass that it's severely damaging the performance and life of the Maseratis, Mercedes, Cadillacs, etc.

Fortunately for defenders of White American civilization, Trump is extremely wealthy and doesn't have to kiss the establishment's dirty ass.

Tired worn out BS. Not all home invaders are alone or pussies. Now you've just let them know what you are armed with, and a better idea of where you are located. Idiot.

Also got no use for those arguing about stuff they have no experience with, reading ninjas. Like Nate and others suggested, go out and shoot stuff and observe what really happens.

All that cerebral philosophizing and article reading don't mean shit when SHTF.

It's better for you just to pick just about any firearm, buy it, go out and shoot the shit out of it, learn all of its strengths and weaknesses, go buy a different one, rinse and repeat. If you don't have fun doing that *maybe* you shouldn't have guns.

When it comes to firearms, start with the bullet and make you're way up from there.

.223/5.56mm is well received in CQB because of head shots. It doesn't matter how big your bullet is if you hit the CNS. Low caliber recoils less and let's you follow up faster. For hunting, it will only reliably bleed out something that weighs less than 80lb.

.308/7.62mm has good penetration on targets and can reliably bleed out targets up to 450lbs (elk). However, the recoil for a 7.62NATO makes fast follow-up hard. 7.62Soviet or .300Blackout have better recoil and shorter range in AR-15.

.254/6.5mm has moderate recoil, and bleed out (250lb-ish). Moderate rounds with good range are 6.5Grendal for AR15 and 6.5-07 for AR-10.

Moved the goal post, now he's bolting cuz' he's actually facing a 12g, not just because he heard one get racked. Sure, if he's alone, unarmed, and not planning on dealing with resistance. Hope that's the only kind of thug you ever have to face and yeah, your fine warding him off with your rackFu.

I have taken a couple conceal-carry courses and have known a couple of law-enforcement officers who all agree on the effectiveness of a shotgun for home security. They especially recommended it for my wife and kids. Point and shoot. Easy-peasey-japaneasy.

That, of course, is the kind of information I was looking for to begin with. I didn't have many plans to start hunting large game, and if I did I've already got a 91/30 in excellent condition. But thanks for the info.

I heard about the Grendel in the context of the .50 Beowulf; apparently the latter is supposed to be good for bison hunting, and if I understood correctly the actual magazines for .50 Beowulf are the same dimensions as a 5.56 magazine, only single-stack. It was suggested on a gun forum that if your state passed a ban on 30rnd magazines, just call them .50 Beowulf magazines, and then they would be legal since they only hold 10 rounds (or less, I forget exactly how many). Obviously you'd have to have a .50 Beowulf upper, but it gets you around the ban entirely once you do.

There are...naturally...a few drawbacks to the 12 gauge shot gun for home defense.

First and foremost; today's night time home breakers invariably travel in packs of three.

The days when just one guy would break into a house while people are in it are long over. If you plan to have less intruders than three breaking in, then congratulations. You've traveled back in time to 1984. Ronald Reagan is your president, I envy you. But if you live in the present than your shotgun will give you 5 +1 rounds to 8 +1 depending on what you own. That's tight for three tangos.

Second; can you operate it with only one hand?

A home invasion is hardly an ideal situation. You could be injured.

Third; can you operate it if you have had to take the stock out of your shoulder?

You might have to leave your hide and clear the house yourself if your loved ones are in danger. Are your hallways too narrow to turn around in with the stock in your shoulder. Mine are.

Fourth. You will be temporarily (possibly permanently) deaf the moment you fire a 12 gauge in doors. You need all your senses in a fight.

An AR-15 Carbine solves most of those problems but of course has it own drawbacks.

It is a very intimidating sound, yes, but either way you are now down a shell. So it's not a good tactical move on net, because if he's not sober enough to be frightened you now have only 4 shells loaded. I'd rather not assume that I only get sober burglars.

Especially considering most studies of actual firefights show defenders missing many shots, even at close range, with fine motor skills degrading further when the defenders had little combat experience. And one test I saw said that reloading under fire is very, very difficult to do for exactly this reason; hence my desire for more rounds.

I'm told the closest non-combat means of acclimating your body to the adrenaline rush of combat is competitive shooting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

When I say "sober", I'm including drugs, not just alcohol. A number of street drugs dramatically reduce the fear response without necessarily impairing their motor skills or combat effectiveness much, and I don't know that the sort of person who commits a home invasion in America, where almost 40% of the population are known to be gun owners, would burglarize an occupied home sober.

"An AR-15 Carbine solves most of those problems but of course has it own drawbacks."

Anything has strengths and weaknesses. The nut behind the butt and what's between his ears and in his chest are more important.

After my experience doing shoot-house clearing drills, if I could swing the $$ and hassle I would use an SBR suppressed AR in 300 BO with night vision for home defense. If I could find and afford a pre-86 select fire lower to build it on even better.

For now my carry piece will have to work, it is more often close, available and ready than anything else.

**************************WKL AR15 vs AR10**************************If you are a noob to ARs, get the AR15 in 5.56/.223. Get a decent quality entry-level example from one of the better manufacturers. I like the S&W M&P 15 entry-level carbine, but Ruger and some others assemble good AR15s, too, for a similar outlay. Thing is, S&W has had pretty consistent quality customer service, in addition to quality products. It is the no-brainer solution. "Buy a Honda Accord and call it good."

*Why AR15 over an AR10 for a noob?*1. AR15 is lighter & handier in stock configuration.2. 5.56/.223 in an AR15 has less subjective recoil than 7.62/.308 in an AR10.3. Much larger community that owns them and folks who produce parts to support them.4. Cheaper to buy and run.

*What ought you buy begin a decent AR15 kit?*1. Quality magazines. More is better. I would say a mix of 30, 20, 10, and 5 round mags. Combat load of 30-rounders, 3-4 20s, a couple 10s and three 5s. 10s and 5s to comply with some states' mag laws and hunting regs/situations.2. Two-point GI sling. Save the HS/LD 1/3/etc-point slingage for later if that is where your training leads you. A two-point GI sling is the standard and can be used to improve functional accuracy at range in addition to toting your AR15.3. Cleaning kit appropriate for an AR15 with Breakfree CLP. Then splurge and get a Dewey plastic coated cleaning rod (+ jag & brush) for serious cleaning at the house. Explore other solvents & such later. BF CLP will do.4. Carrying case. If you buy an M4gery there are nice compact soft cases that will also fit a folding-stock 12-ga shotgun with an 18" bbl.5. Some means of toting your mags and cleaning kit. A claymore bag or similar is a good start.

*Optional / nice-to-haves*1. Weapon light. Surefire is the standard, but Streamlight wins on $$$/functionality. A first AR15 ought to go Streamlight.2. Reflex Optic. Trijicon the standard. Aimpoint a quality substitute. A used/refurb Aimpoint Comp-M* would be ideal for a noob to AR15s. Bushnell produces/imports a nifty $100 reflex sight. 3. Magnified optic. Again, Trijicon the standard. Lots of good second-tier options. For my own part, I would buy a Leopold in a lower-power variable. VX-I 2-7x for (relatively) higher mag, VX-HOG 1-4x for lower.

Ya know, if someone's in my house that's not supposed to be, I am not all that concerned about his sobriety. We can talk about every possible contingency until the second coming. All that's been offered in this thread is more than adequate in providing some direction for defending yourself. Arm yourself and learn how to defend your loved ones. That's what we're in the process of doing right now.

I live in a small town of 1500 and we had a meth-head break in to an elderly woman's home just last year. The best she could do was hide in the bathroom shower and hope for the best. Fortunately, for her, it turned out OK, but it could have easily gone sideways for her.

I not only want my family to be trained to defend themselves but also others if necessary.

"I'm told the closest non-combat means of acclimating your body to the adrenaline rush of combat is competitive shooting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?"

Yeah, it does give a bit of a rush, but with hearing protection and nothing shooting back it's not quite the same. I've heard of some courses with paint-ball bots shoot at you, never been to one. IMAO paintball or air-soft are too different from real firearm kabooms and recoil to be of much use.

3-Gun or something like it could give you experience with carbine, shotgun, and pistol. How applicable it is for home defense scenarios depends on the course of fire, but all of it is valuable. Some only use shorter range, "tac" bays which are closer to hd ranges. I'm skaptical about how useful shooting your AR at 12" plates 2-300 yards away is for hd prep.

I have drank the Grendel cool-aid and it is good. Even decent commercial ammo priced right and available now. The only thing that keeps it from being my recommended grab-one-gun-and-go choice is not enough zombies using it to resupply with. I could keep another upper in the pack, but that would be 1 1/2 guns and go...

His lack of sobriety means you aren't going to scare him off; you either kill him, or give him what he wants. Assuming you would choose the former, and I would, I want more than 4-8 rounds in my gun when the fight starts. And racking the shotgun after he comes in either costs you a live round, or else you weren't fully loaded to begin with. Neither is good.

If I'm going to try scaring him, shouting "I've got a rifle and I'm looking for you!" will do the job. If I'm not, I'd rather have 20-30 rounds loaded anyway.

I simply don't understand anyone who doesn't think immigration is our biggest problem and Trump is the only one who will deliver the goods despite the establishment. To Trump the establishment is either a tool or a hindrance. Every other candidate in one way another owes something to the establishment. Even Carson.

Let me preface this with the fact that the taxpayers via uncle sam spent a heap big sum of money putting me behind an AR15, along with more thousands of rounds that I can count. I know the AR15 platform, I trust the AR15 platform (when properly maintained and with regular spring refreshes), and I have wrenched on many individual AR15s.

Still, my first choice for HD in a stick-built drywall house with a brick veneer in the 'burbs is a 12ga shotgun. (In my case loaded either with Rem Express 000-buck or Fed FliteControl 00-buck depending on which the shotgun likes)

*Why the shotgun?*1. I have just as many hours behind a shotgun as the AR15 in the form of bird hunting, skeet, trap, etc. And this sort of competition/training is easier to come by than AR15 carbine particular training now that uncle sam doesn't pay the bills. (Do not discount the value of familiarity bred by lots of _recent_ hours operating a weapon.)2. Most any of the non-pistol grip shotguns point better than an AR15. Meaning, when shouldering a decently-fitting shotgun, it will more naturally/reflexively point where you think it ought to point. An AR15 carbine can be shot with point/snap-shooting methods, but does better with a sight. Pistol grip shotguns don't point as well, IME, so I prefer the semi-PG style.3. Easier to track a moving target with a shotgun. Most shotguns on the market were designed from the get-go to shoot birds on the wing.4. All that above implies the user can get on the target faster and do so in poorer light than with an AR15. 5. Less sensitive to neglect/leaving it in a closet for a year.6. 5.56 at HD ranges is no pitty-pat, but buck or slugs at HD ranges is a whole 'nuther level of bangflop. 7. Buckshot is precise enough at HD ranges to make head shots if necessary.8. Shotgun discharged indoors is less stunning/oppressive than an AR15 discharged indoors. I've eaten enough muzzle blast to not enjoy high-pressure rounds being lit off when confined by walls.

*Drywall penetration*Any 5.56mm round penetrative enough to be a threat to humans will zip through drywall like buckshot or slugs. You can add pistol or other rifle rounds. To sum up, ANY ammo that can put down a human will likely zip through your house like a hot knife through butter. Get a grip on that fact and deal appropriately with it.

*Why the AR15*1. I might go AR15 for HD if I had zero experience with a shotgun, but already had experience with an AR15. Still, most places your average person will find more opportunity to shoot a shotgun and become familiar with its manual of arms.2. In a rural setting and limited to one long gun for both HD and shooting coyotes off the front porch. I would prefer Plan B: buy both and choose the tool appropriate to the job.

Whatever you buy, buy lots of ammo and shoot it up in a productive manner.

What is with all the people that wont spend $30 bucks for loud noise canceling headphones.

That sound carries through a house. Drop the idiot talk. You make yourself sound like one

You can buy a smart phone app that has that sound. While I have encountered more people on drugs in hospitals than in my home, I have seen groids that can make ER gurneys bounce despite being fully strapped down. They wouldn't be scared off by just the sound, and could probably go a full minute after receiving a fatal wound.

165 You will be temporarily (possibly permanently) deaf the moment you fire a 12 gauge in doors

Here is a loud noise dampening hearing protection that doesn't need batteries you can put it on your shotgun, while hearing normal sound. http://www.earplugstore.com/sensgard-zem-sg-31.html

Here is a loud noise dampening hearing protection that doesn't need batteries you can put it on your shotgun

I should probably state for Leo that you would store the hearing protection hanging on the shot gun and put in in your ears when needed.

OT: Mandatory vaccines for veterans, vets to be forced to get 90 vaccinations to keep benefits. http://www.activistpost.com/2015/11/us-senate-passes-bill-approving-mandatory-vaccinations-for-veterans.html

Shotgun discharged indoors is less stunning/oppressive than an AR15 discharged indoors.

This is a big thing, and if you've never fired a 5.56 or larger caliber rifle at an indoor range, it would catch you completely off guard. The gun shop down the street from my dojo has a very nice indoor range that is rifle certified. The first time I took my AR-15 in there was also the first time I'd fired it indoors. The pressure wave was a bit surprising - and not just to me. Every shooter in the bay stopped when I fired it. You could feel it everywhere. I strongly suspect the effect would be bigger with a larger, higher powered round.

In short, shoot one of those things indoors and you won't just hear it, you'll feel it. It's far from the end of the world in a home defense situation. But if you've never shot one indoors before... well, and HD situation isn't the time to experience that for the first time.

Also, seriously... coming here to argue guns with Nate is only slightly less foolish than getting involved in a land war in Asia.

I'm of the opinion that long guns are the wrong choice for home defense in the first place.Too hard to handle in confined spaces, muzzle blast and loud report all make any long gun a poor choice. That said, if you want a long gun, definitely shotgun first, provided wife and /or kids can handle it. 12Ga is bit much for a lot of people, including me. I don't want firing a gun to hurt. 16Ga or 20Ga is often more appropriate. My brother swears by 28Ga, but that's his competition gun, so he would, wouldn't he?Between AR-15 and AR-10, personal preference. AR-15 is ubiquitous, cheap to shoot so you'll practice more, and fun for people who like to dress up Barbie dolls. AR-10 has a lot more stopping power.But for actual home defense, I like .45ACP. Easy to handle, easy to hit your target, you're not packing it, so weight doesn't matter so much, and lots and lots of stopping power. .38 or .38 special are very good too, provided it's not in a snubby revolver.

On paper a Smith & Wesson Governor with Crimson Trace is the best Condition White pistol there is.

But is it in the real world?

The statistics say that your average defensive shoot is at a range of between 7yds and Bad Breath. On average of only 1 to 3 shots is fired.

An S&W Governor has the advantages that come with a revolver plus the fire power of small shotgun. A cylinder dump with .410 000 Federal Premium Handgun will put 24 9mm size pellets into someone in-around-about one second.