Bluesqueak wrote:Asteroid miners, probably. I'd guess that a sensor suite designed to find metal in among a bunch of rocks can easily find post battle scrap. If their captains have got any sense, they'll have headed for somewhere far, far from the warships with the nasty weapons as soon as they came over the hyper limit, and can then set up as scrap merchants as soon as the peace treaty's signed.

If the system concerned hasn't got any asteroid miners, a call out to other systems will probably bring one or two over to mine the new junkyard.

Pardon my bold to call attention.

I wouldn't think that's the case at all. Scanning for metal is going to have the same limitations as scanning for missiles, pods, or other ships. Certainly, trying to find smaller fragments of metal whose momentum has carried it great distances shouldn't be a piece o' cake.

I could be wrong, but I thought the main problem with finding missiles, pods, etc was the considerable amount of stealth tech dedicated to making them hard to find. Scrap probably won't have any surviving stealth.

Mathematically, you should have an expanding sphere of metal radiating from the location of the battle - which would be a known factor. That expanding sphere would be acted upon by gravitational forces of the large system objects - also a known factor. Variables would be the initial acceleration created by the force of each initial explosion, plus any acceleration/velocity of each ship before it was destroyed.

So I think it would be possible to calculate a likely loci that's small enough for a mining ship's sensors. And once you've found some of the debris, you could maybe refine the variables, because you'd then know the final velocity and the distance from the battle.

I could easily be underestimating the difficulties, but that's where I'd start.

ldwechsler wrote:But Manticore has not violated the Edict. Michelle and fleet did not blow up the bombs.

Why do some people look to blame the good guys for everything? Detweiler set off the bombs himself.

Good for Michelle. She's not guilty. Hurrah! That will be really nice for her when she's talking to Saint Peter.

But she appears guilty. Manticore has used stealth weapons to destroy space structures before. They have taken part in nuking Mesa's surface even knowing civilians would be killed. Weapons that only Manticore produces and are only distributed to the Manticorian military were used to assassinate people investigating the nuclear attacks. Manticore is being framed and they are being framed extremely well. To top it all off Victor decided to come back to Mesa right before the nukes started back up.

The evidence against Manticore is utterly overwhelming. Worse, I strongly suspect that there will be additional fabrications to top off the proof. Its possible that Mesa had sensors that "detected" the weapons Manticore used. Possibly most damning of all is Manticore's alternate explanation is like something someone suffering from paranoid delusions would invent.

A careful exam would show that they had not come from space.

Umm... no it wouldn't. A nuclear explosion is a nuclear explosion. It doesn't matter if the missile originally came from space. Weapons can penetrate through the ground. Even today we have bunker busters.

ldwechsler wrote:But Manticore has not violated the Edict. Michelle and fleet did not blow up the bombs.

Why do some people look to blame the good guys for everything? Detweiler set off the bombs himself.

Good for Michelle. She's not guilty. Hurrah! That will be really nice for her when she's talking to Saint Peter.

But she appears guilty. Manticore has used stealth weapons to destroy space structures before. They have taken part in nuking Mesa's surface even knowing civilians would be killed. Weapons that only Manticore produces and are only distributed to the Manticorian military were used to assassinate people investigating the nuclear attacks. Manticore is being framed and they are being framed extremely well. To top it all off Victor decided to come back to Mesa right before the nukes started back up.

The evidence against Manticore is utterly overwhelming. Worse, I strongly suspect that there will be additional fabrications to top off the proof. Its possible that Mesa had sensors that "detected" the weapons Manticore used. Possibly most damning of all is Manticore's alternate explanation is like something someone suffering from paranoid delusions would invent.

A careful exam would show that they had not come from space.

Umm... no it wouldn't. A nuclear explosion is a nuclear explosion. It doesn't matter if the missile originally came from space. Weapons can penetrate through the ground. Even today we have bunker busters.

The forensics of an explosion site would be able to determine whether or not it was as a result of a missile impact or if it had been placed on site prior to the explosion.

Don

-

When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

n7axw wrote:The forensics of an explosion site would be able to determine whether or not it was as a result of a missile impact or if it had been placed on site prior to the explosion.

Don

Umm... no. There is no difference between a bomb that comes down via drone, or a bomb that gets hand delivered. Two, the GA was kind enough to place one of its agents on the planet so even if Manticore can prove it wasn't Henke for a few weapons it won't help.

Secondly, that just makes things worse if people believe forensics can do that. Then Manticore has no excuse to not let a neutral team in to investigate. The neutral team would clear them! I'm sure Visgoth will be leaving the League. They'd be happy to investigate and clear Manticore! The only problem is there is about a 100% chance they'll find a way for Manticore to have done it. Worse there is about a 100% chance if they're allowed to investigate they'll find inconsistencies in the stories of Manticorian personnel.

n7axw wrote:The forensics of an explosion site would be able to determine whether or not it was as a result of a missile impact or if it had been placed on site prior to the explosion.

Don

Umm... no. There is no difference between a bomb that comes down via drone, or a bomb that gets hand delivered.

Actually, there is a good bit of difference in the blast effect of a moving (dropped from a drone) vs that of a prepositioned explosive. Even a moderately competent forensics examiner can tell the difference.

Of course, as several people have mentioned, facts and forensic evidence have no bearing on public opinion and political spin; take the Twin Towers forensic investigation as an example. No matter how details the investigation, the conspiracy nuts will still "prove" it was all done by demolition charges set by the CIA/Illuminati/Aliens/etc.

ldwechsler wrote:But Manticore has not violated the Edict. Michelle and fleet did not blow up the bombs.

Why do some people look to blame the good guys for everything? Detweiler set off the bombs himself. A careful exam would show that they had not come from space.

So a big publicity campaign could accuse but the Edicts were not violated.

But the Mandarins will not be interested in a careful examination & they will do their damnedest to blame the GA for the destruction on Mesa; (as well as complicity in all the destruction from the pre-invasion Operation Houdini which the MAlignment were very careful to point towards the Ballroom with Manticore's assistance).

As it says in one of the Discworld novels, 'A lie can make its way twice around the world whilst the truth is still putting its boots on.' Remember how gullible the Solly public were over claims the GA had fired on Filareta's fleet after they had surrendered.

Bluesqueak wrote:Asteroid miners, probably. I'd guess that a sensor suite designed to find metal in among a bunch of rocks can easily find post battle scrap. If their captains have got any sense, they'll have headed for somewhere far, far from the warships with the nasty weapons as soon as they came over the hyper limit, and can then set up as scrap merchants as soon as the peace treaty's signed.

If the system concerned hasn't got any asteroid miners, a call out to other systems will probably bring one or two over to mine the new junkyard.

Pardon my bold to call attention.

I wouldn't think that's the case at all. Scanning for metal is going to have the same limitations as scanning for missiles, pods, or other ships. Certainly, trying to find smaller fragments of metal whose momentum has carried it great distances shouldn't be a piece o' cake.

Bluesqueak wrote:I could be wrong, but I thought the main problem with finding missiles, pods, etc was the considerable amount of stealth tech dedicated to making them hard to find. Scrap probably won't have any surviving stealth.

Mathematically, you should have an expanding sphere of metal radiating from the location of the battle - which would be a known factor. That expanding sphere would be acted upon by gravitational forces of the large system objects - also a known factor. Variables would be the initial acceleration created by the force of each initial explosion, plus any acceleration/velocity of each ship before it was destroyed.

So I think it would be possible to calculate a likely loci that's small enough for a mining ship's sensors. And once you've found some of the debris, you could maybe refine the variables, because you'd then know the final velocity and the distance from the battle.

I could easily be underestimating the difficulties, but that's where I'd start.

That's the best case scenario. There are going to be cases where the number of skirmishes inside the system are unknown. The location of said skirmishes are also unknown. The location of any explosions are also unknown. The relief force stumbled into a system where eight hundred ships fought it out. All but two are destroyed or are dying wrecks. There has been weeks to months of elapsed time since this battle raged all over the system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble.—cthia's father. Incident in ?Axiom of Common Sense

Weird Harold wrote:Actually, there is a good bit of difference in the blast effect of a moving (dropped from a drone) vs that of a prepositioned explosive. Even a moderately competent forensics examiner can tell the difference.

Honorverse tech is fully capable of bringing an explosive device dropped from a drone to a stop before detonating it. Or just landing the drone for that matter.

Far worse, it would also be fully possible for Honorverse tech to start an explosive device moving at a high velocity before detonating it. And that's assuming you can't just futz around with the grav pinch to make the explosion look like one from a moving device.

Manticore is being framed. They are being framed by people who are very good at their job. In fact we already know there is forensics evidence that points to Manticore! There was a scene detailing how Manticorian weapons were used to kill two investigators trying to solve the mystery of the nuclear bombs. I'm guessing there will be a hell of a lot more evidence to be found pointing towards the GA when investigators start looking. Even worse the GA was nice enough to put its agents on the planet!

Weird Harold wrote:Of course, as several people have mentioned, facts and forensic evidence have no bearing on public opinion and political spin; take the Twin Towers forensic investigation as an example. No matter how details the investigation, the conspiracy nuts will still "prove" it was all done by demolition charges set by the CIA/Illuminati/Aliens/etc.

That is the one saving grace the GA has. The GA is the conspiracy nut here! They are the ones with the grand conspiracy story. They are the ones who will be claiming pre-planted explosives by genetic supermen.

bluesqueak wrote:I could be wrong, but I thought the main problem with finding missiles, pods, etc was the considerable amount of stealth tech dedicated to making them hard to find. Scrap probably won't have any surviving stealth.

Mathematically, you should have an expanding sphere of metal radiating from the location of the battle - which would be a known factor. That expanding sphere would be acted upon by gravitational forces of the large system objects - also a known factor. Variables would be the initial acceleration created by the force of each initial explosion, plus any acceleration/velocity of each ship before it was destroyed.

So I think it would be possible to calculate a likely loci that's small enough for a mining ship's sensors. And once you've found some of the debris, you could maybe refine the variables, because you'd then know the final velocity and the distance from the battle.

I could easily be underestimating the difficulties, but that's where I'd start.

That's the best case scenario. There are going to be cases where the number of skirmishes inside the system are unknown. The location of said skirmishes are also unknown. The location of any explosions are also unknown. The relief force stumbled into a system where eight hundred ships fought it out. All but two are destroyed or are dying wrecks. There has been weeks to months of elapsed time since this battle raged all over the system.

Indeed, but then you've got the same problem that you have with finding high metal asteroids. That is, there's bits of stuff wandering all over your star system. Unlike finding high metal asteroids, however, you know this stuff is going to consist largely of ship-building materials.

Though if eight hundred ships duked it out, and only two survived, those two are going to know where they were. At least, if space ships are anything like ocean ships, they will, because if you don't know where you are, you have a very high chance of crashing into something. That's why RMN ships which arrive in a system with not much to do tend to update their charts. Sudden course changes are so embarrassing.

Okay, so given a worst-case assumption that no ship survived - the two 'survivors' had damage to their fusion bottles, and blew up after the battle. Also presume that the people on the planet don't know where the various battles were fought - which means they don't have enough technology to spot a small fusion explosion. Which we know, from Service of the Sword, could be seen from the planetary surface using Mk 1 Eyeball.

Even so, we're left with an argument that the technology available in the Honorverse, to ships which would specialise in finding chunks of space metal - is worse than NASA's, which has found lost metal objects orbiting the moon which were less than 1.5 cubic metres in size.

Current Earth based radar can find objects about 10 cubic centimetres at a distance of 2000 km. They've observed objects around 6 cubic mm. They can find this debris - the only question is whether it's worth money to find it.

For the relief force, the problems are going to be 'are there any survivors?', 'what do we do with the bodies?' and 'chart position, orbit and/or velocity.' So they're likely to want to find the ships as well - and they have very good sensor suites.

For the planet concerned, if they want space ships to visit them, they are going to need somebody to clear all that potentially dangerous junk out from between the hyper-limit and their planet. If they honestly haven't a single clue where the battle was fought, they're probably going to have to sweep the ecliptic between their planet and the hyper limit, because that's where most ships tend to come in.

And which class of ship is designed to find and retrieve chunks of space junk?

Bluesqueak wrote:And which class of ship is designed to find and retrieve chunks of space junk?

We do know that we could sweep the areas with space tugs moving across the expected orbits of the junk if we are satisfied with destroying it. Or they could use tractor beams on anything that needed examining or saving.