Reading through this thread is making my eyes look like this: lol... that's not necessarily a bad thing.Just... man! Lots going on in here.

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Chris

The parable above is included in the Olivet Discourse. I think Christ meant us to see his words and the prophecies of scripture as "talents" that are committed to our stewardship. These may provide us with light and understanding, and bear fruit, depending on how we interpret them. Some may find them too obscure, and pay them no attention at all. Others may obtain some light and guidance, and then there are those who find deep meaning that they can act upon, and become very fruitful for the kingdom of God.

I think literalists tend to be in the less fruitful category; literalism is like burying a talent in the ground. The most fruitful category would be those who discover the true meaning of Christ's words and take appropriate action. IMO.

So you do or don't see this as "future"? It seems that you don't as you seem to apply it to our current understanding/actions/etc. But if that is so, then how does this apply to what you were talking about in relation to ruling over cities in the future, after we physically die and are later resurrected?

Quote from: Doug

Oops, the cities are mentioned in Luke's version, sorry. Here it is:

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

How does this point to you ruling over cities after you physically die and are resurrected?

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris

The scriptures say "every man in his own order". Where does it say that all of the saints are raise together, at once?

Isaiah 66:6-136 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Compare the above prophecy with Rev. 12:1-6. Do you see any similarities? In verse 7, the man child corresponds to the man child in Rev. 12:5, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. This is referring to Christ.

Verses 8-9 refer to the resurrection, I think; the time when the saints who died are raised up from their graves, and those who are alive are suddenly changed to immortality as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.

Doug

I still disagree, as I do not understand Paul to be talking about a future physical resurrection in 1 Cor 15. And "children" are not "sons" (spiritually speaking).

BTW, it's not that I don't believe that we are all raised "together". I believe that we have already been raised together with Christ, having been gathered together into one body - even though some "sleep".

But I do not believe that any of those verses speak to a future physical resurrection that takes place after one's physical death. It's just not how I see it (though I once did).

Logged

Chris

Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?

No, I don't think there is a connection.

Doug

Weren't they both speaking about "the harvest" that is to take place at "the end of the world"? (If you don't think so, then why not?)

Christ says that "the tares" will be gathered first.

Paul says that "the dead in Christ" shall rise first.

Those two statements agree only if "the dead in Christ" = "the tares"

And who are "the tares" (spiritually speaking) if not those who are "dead" in sin?

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed?? do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it? What "end all" are you referring to?

All "flesh" will be destroyed. Do I mean that only "literally"? Is that the quesiton? No, I don't. In the sense that "the flesh" is man's carnal nature (not his epidermis), I see this happening individually. So, then, does the "literal" destruction of "the flesh" happen individually, too, right? It rots and returns to dust after we physically die, right?

But what of those who "remain" when the time comes for this world to come to and and for all men to enter into the kingdom of God, into eternity with the Father? That is the only "end all" that I can see, if you want to call it that. Is that what you are asking me?

yes, so you see an end to the literal world?? earth?? and an end to all human life?? and you see this in scripture?? even though, it appears to me that you are "spiritualizing" those scriptures that might refer to an end to the "world".

or another angle, you still see this "literal world/and physical flesh" from limiting us from "eternity" and entering "the kingdom of God"??

Zeek, I am having a hard time understanding your questions or maybe just the way you phrase them, so please bear with me as I try to answer what I 'think' you are asking.

Yes, I see an end to the literal world/earth and an end to human life (as we know it). I certianly do not believe that we cease to exist, though.

I'm not sure what you mean about me "spiritualizing" those verses that might refer to "the end of the world"... if you are claiming that the verses exist? Am I not supposed to take them "literally" if I am the one claiming that the world does cease to exist and this is what the scriptures say? Or am I "spiritualizing" them by taking them literally when I shouldn't? Or are you saying they do not exist? I am confused? (honestly)

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet the kingdom of God is within, right? So how does flesh and blood prohibit us from entering into the kingdom?

I see that entrance as spiritual. Do you see it as physical?

never mind Chris,

I am unable to explain myself clearly for you to understand my question.

Zeek

Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

Zeek

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Yes......adding to your thought here, dead bodies also raise to the surface of the waters, but don't have the right garment, ie. are not in the Ark which is Christ. Some resurrecting to shame, others to endless life.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. During the apostles time on earth, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

That's good, I see that. And He divided the waters from the waters in Genesis. Blessings.....

Logged

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

If they received the end of their faith during the time that the epistles were written, then no longer were they having their faith tried in fire, and no longer were they under intense persecution by the tares.

Chris

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 …are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker…

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 …are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker…

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Zeek

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand" (Rom.13:11-12).

OUR salvation is near, not "your salvation".

To me, this implies a "corporate resurrection", not an individual resurrection. In other words, he didn't say, soon some of you will receive your salvation like I have, but rather was inclusive "our" salvation.

Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

If they received the end of their faith during the time that the epistles were written, then no longer were they having their faith tried in fire, and no longer were they under intense persecution by the tares.

Paul reached the point where he rejoiced in His sufferings, being a partaker of the suffering of Christ. The fact that one is 'being persecuted', doesn't necessarily mean that they 'feel' persecuted, in the way that others might 'feel' persecuted, does it?

How can one have Christ in them, having eternal life.... and not have received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their soul? when it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory"?

Peter says that they were receiving it? But they never actually did receive it?

Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it?

Chris

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

hope implies "future"

Because it is "the hope" (and still future) for those who do not yet "have" eternal life (which is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent, right?); who have not yet passed from death unto life, who still "sleep", who are still "dead" in sin.

Are we all still dead in sin, none of us having passed from death unto life? Not even the apostles of Jesus Christ, of whom Paul was but one? (That speaks contrary to what Paul said in other places of scripture.)

Logged

Zeek

Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it?

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".

I believe it was covenental. Old to new.

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

hope implies "future"

Because it is "the hope" (and still future) for those who do not yet "have" eternal life (which is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent, right?); who have not yet passed from death unto life, who still "sleep", who are still "dead" in sin.

but Paul includes himself in that "hope", per Romans verse I earlier quoted.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 …are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker…

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And this applies to Paul when he said:

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

These words (and others like them) are speaking of things that had not actually happened yet when the words were spoken? These things won't actually happen until after we die physically?

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand" (Rom.13:11-12).

OUR salvation is near, not "your salvation".

To me, this implies a "corporate resurrection", not an individual resurrection. In other words, he didn't say, soon some of you will receive your salvation like I have, but rather was inclusive "our" salvation.

Technically (if I can call it that?) salvation was wrought at the cross and "it is finished". We have all already been saved. It's just that we do not all know it or walk in it.

If it is time for us to awake from sleep and rise from the dead and that only happens in a single moment for all of us, all at the same time, tied to a physical resurrection that we all experience at the same time, then what is "Christ in you"? What is "eternal life"? What does it mean to be "born again"? Why do some HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and some ABIDE IN DEATH if, in fact, we are all actually still "dead"?

Of course Paul included himself. Why wouldn't he? We cannot justify ourselves. We cannot bear witness of ourselves. We cannot say that we are perfect or without sin or the truth is not in us. Only God can bear witness of us. And even if we have attained unto the resurrection of the dead, we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ, just as Paul did (and tells us to do).

Paul was "delivered of the child" and he waited (and "travailed in birth again") for others to experience the same things that he did, even if he "counted it not" for himself, as he waited for Christ to be formed in them, as this 'is' the hope of glory; the hope of eternal life; the promise given - and fulfilled - in those who believe, is it not?

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 …are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker…

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And this applies to Paul when he said:

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

These words (and others like them) are speaking of things that had not actually happened yet when the words were spoken? These things won't actually happen until after we die physically?

Before Noah was resurrected above the "waters",

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark ("future"), thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

(imo, worked out his salvation with fear and trembling, staying faithful to the end)

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.