On other threads there is ongoing debate about the extent to which the suburbs are seen as diluting the city vibe and therefore something to be 'resisted'. Concerns are expressed about the barren fruits of low density housing developments. I live in the inner city in south central Lpool . If I threw a stone hard enough it could just possibly end up at the start of Liverpool's suburbs (that part of Toxteth Park that calls itself Aigburth or St Michaels-in-the-Hamlet! ). These are areas of low density housing but Aigburth Road is lined with shops of all kinds, Lark Lane is a law unto itself, Aigburth Vale has great bars and restaurants and slightly further afield Smithdown Road south of Ullet Road kicks ass, Allerton and Woolton are funky and everywhere there are trees, 'boulevards' and parks and great housing if you can afford it. Promenades? Golf Courses? Historic buildings? You want it, we've got it. Nearly all of South Liverpool kicks ass (I've even got my fingers crossed for Garston). Speke? Mmmmm. Only two cinemas though and only street theatre. Galleries? Yeh - and then some.

It occurs to me that what matters most isn't high density residential accomodation but wealth. Most of the above areas are populated by people with middle class incomes. What they want, they get. In other words, cities are about diversity - different things work in different parts of the city for different reasons.

Hightown, Maghull, Melling, Seaforth, Litherland, Thornton, Netherton, Knowsley Village, Rainhill. (apologies if you included these under other districts). There are so many arn't there. Other areas that are mainly settled by scousers such as Hough Green, Rainford, Billinge and Aughton are perhaps too far away to be included. And obviously the Liverpool newtowns of Skem, Runcorn and Winsford are way too far out to be included (though Skem and Runcorn must be included in any forthcoming Liverpool city region).

As for Bootle (where i am from), i would very much classify it as an inner city Liverpool suburb (as its very much in the inner 3 to 4 mile ring of Liverpool along with Walton, Norris Green, Old Swan, Mossley Hill, Aigburth, etc). I would even say that Bootle is Liverpool's very own Salford. In that it is very much part of the Liverpool conurbation and is very close to the city centre of Liverpool but was never included into the city (though it so nearly made it in on many occasions) but was considered a big enough suburb to go it alone. The same thing could quite easily have happened to Walton or West Derby (i.e. both of whom which were once independent of Liverpool but where swallowed up in the sprawling metropolis. They could have been made up into county boroughs like Bootle upon reaching 75,000 people).

Maghull, Seaforth, Litherland, Thornton, Netherton, Rainhill. (apologies if you included these under other districts). There are so many arn't there. Other areas that are mainly settled by scousers such as Hough Green, Rainford, Billinge and Aughton are perhaps too far away to be included. And obviously the Liverpool newtowns of Skem, Runcorn and Winsford are way too far out to be included.

As for Bootle (where i am from), i would very much classify it as an inner city Liverpool suburb (as its very much still in the inner 3 to 4 mile ring of Liverpool along with Walton, Norris Green, Old Swan, Mossley Hill, Aigburth, etc). I would even say that Bootle is Liverpool's very own Salford. In that it is very much part of the Liverpool conurbation and is very close to the city centre of Liverpool but was never included into the city (though it so nearly made it in on many occasions) but was considered a big enough suburb to go it alone. The same thing could quite easily have happened to Walton or West Derby (i.e. been made up into a county borough like Bootle upon reaching 75,000 people).

The reason Bootle didn't end up part of Liverpool in the 19c,was Lord Derby owned most of the land and refused to sell to the city.Obviously there was a financial advantage to him to see Bootle incorporated as a county borough.Stanley is the Derby family name,hence,stanley rd and Derby rd,Derby Park,etc.

I think you have identified the absolutely central problem within urban society... WEALTH, or more problomatically, the lack of it.
Where this comes to a head with regards to housing, mixing uses, distance from facilities and the centre etc is when huge numbers of low income groups are marooned in edge city housing estates but without the incomes to overcome the shortcomings.

Low density housing needs ongoing systems support to make them habitable as they provide or maintain nothing within, more importantly when we are talking about urbanism, they cannot.

Largely suburban habitations (like MK) make it hard for small business to get off the ground as well as limiting the numbers able to do so, there just isn't the market or the infrastructure to do so in the numbers you can in proper high density, mixed city areas.

If you cannot generate enterprise the same limiting effect means you cannot provide socil services or community amenity, unless you provide massive amounts of subsidy. You can see this in places like Huyton and Kirkby where the authorities did at one time try to provide services but found it impossible to maintain them (youth centres with only 3 kids and 4 staff a night using them etc)

Issues are compounded by city size etc but the principle is the same. You can see this in action in the inner areas of Liverpool where tight, urban neighbourhoods with high streets and shitty housing have been replaced with much lower volume population levels. As soon as this is done you see the services rapidly dying off.

The symptoms and consequences are much more complex than I can describe here, but if you take the basic principle and extrapolate you can see how suburbs work, or don't work.

If you removed the incomes from people living in Mossley Hill or Allerton say, they would quickly descend into the same sort of area you find in Scotland Rd, Mill St or the poorer inter war suburbs. Suburbs only provide you with a home, remove the work and the problems start... remove the basic services (bus services, doctors surgeries, school, church etc) then not only are you missing the quality of life that a job provides (and enables you to overcome the shortcomings of suburban living etc) you lose the basic needs for living.

The basic principle is that higher density enables you to tap the potential and also to provide and succesfully maintain services. But density is not sufficient in its self. Those flats in the south docks are higher density than most housing estates, but they are still just housing estates. You need the infraastructure that enables a mix of uses to be provided in an area.... high street, commercial and community facilities etc must be able to be supported in a 'mixed use' area.

There are loads of additional things to consider, from standards of build, enregy efficiency, open space etc, but the best building block for neighbourhoods should start with sufficient peole in an area to be able to support services. If that model is provided then all sorts of other things can be considered... if you build a low density housing estate then you are largely stuck once the houses are complete, the onlyu job remaining is mooching round for funds to support otherwise unsustainable quality of life services!

Most importantly, as I have mentioned in the Princes Ave thread, it is only potential that is created... that potential has to be tapped, but in properly configurated districts at least you can actually consider taping this potential.

you must compare like with like. It is no use comparing Allerton with Granby... look rather at the potential (and actual quality of life) around County Rd with what is available on the suburbanised Vauxhall Rd. In County Rd there is potential to be built upon... in vauxhall, there is nothing. My final point is to remind you that lots of people are leaving whole estates of sound housing deserted in the working class suburbs in Fincham, Dovecot, Norris Green etc.... because they are simply beyond the paile, impossible to live in... even with the council and government inteventions... when you see these areas emptying out it is not only heartbreaking but also the culmination of years of chronic failure... people have tried to live in them for years but have had to give up. The only time this process stops is when 'jobs' are provided by the general economy and there is once again something to commute to.

As i said at the top of this post, L8 put his finger on the vital issue of wealth... the really important point to consider is how you generate a major portion of this WEALTH. Wealth in financial terms but also in quality of life terms... and this is where the rub comes. It comes down to whether you value what the city can provide as to whether you value the tokens and potential of high density neighbourhoods, if you reject the principle of urban living having any advantages over leser 'town' or 'village' configurations then the debate becomes circular. If you undo the city then you kill it, precisely the intention of Howard et al.

As I say this is not an attempt to be definative... simply an effort to begin to outline a process.

Just a quick note for John MK as I get the impression you are enamoured with the quaint notions of 19th C rural idylists, is that you have to remember that your prettiest Cotswold Village is higher density than any monotonous leafy suburb, much more intensely mixed use... and why they are nicer to live in... also your small Italian Hill Village for example is usually the heart of the wider rural economy... Feruccio Laborghini started life mending tractors... intensely mixed use places these rural villages are! Hives of industry and the local market... housing estates are just that...houses!

We need to be careful aboout the definition of suburban as well though. County Rd is suburban, Penny Lane is suburban, under blue skies remember, most of Liverpool is!... There are suburbs and 'suburbs'. The problems are in the vast tracts of low density housing with no urban 'logic' to them (i.e. high street, garages and small buildings around about etc)...the great problem lies in useage and avoiding super low population figures.

Isn't anyone going to describe their suburb? Tony what's Huyton like? Looks OK from the train station and there appears to be lots of development around the shopping complex that looks like a walled prison. Near all the Knowsley council buildings. Some great L17 type houses, too. Slight sense of social divide? Seems quite a socially mixed community?

Is anyone going to talk about Aigburth? (I will if no one else does).

My definition of 'inner city' is the city boundary at the end of the 19th century - including L8, Vauxhall, Everton, Kensington, Islington, Kirkdale?

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Thinking a bit more. What constitutes a 'suburb'? For me, it should be more than a sprawling housing estate that has a row of shops containing a chippy, a bookies, an offy and a newsagent. Ideally it should have a proper centre or a longish street/road/avenue containing a range of shops. Are places like Croxteth & Norris Green suburbs or something else? What else? There are vast swathes of that part of the city that are unfamiliar to me. If anyone knows them, it would be great to hear what it's like to live there and what would be needed to make them work better as places to live. Or, is it a case of rub them out and start again?

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I live in Maghull... its alright like, could be better but then I suppose you always know what you don't like about the place you live. In the context of this thread Maghull is a proper suburb I suppose. It has a centre which is generally thriving and a good community police force and council - the extent of the problems tends to be some youths gathering, or a pot hole in the road round here... dont tend to hear people talking about deprevation or lack of jobs, the lack of any sort of Job Centre is evidence of that.

Having said that everything seems to be at a rather slow pace. It doesnt having any thriving investment although in recent years new apartment developments are much more frequent (perhaps a drive to keep younger generations from moving out towards the city??) Most people that live here tend to commute... this can be seem by the vast amounts of people that use Merseyrail at peak times. Ive been hearing forever about how the owners of the "Square" which is Maghulls main shopping area are planning redevelopment but the most Ive seen in the 18 years I have lived here is a retarmac of the car park and new lighting. Also, in terms of amenities there are no leisure facilities apart from parks and tennis courts... in fact they have been planning a leisure centre for years at the Town Hall and nothing much has materialised yet, would you expect this from an area thats supposed to be kinda afluent??

Huyton can be nice, it can also be a shithole. The area the train goes through is largely the nice part, some really nice wealthy old housing for businesmen who took advantage of the line to create suburbia (another claim to fame for Liverpool?)

Going North the mix of housing estates is telling, the private housing estates are fine, but most of the council estates have declined so none of them are appealing... I live in one of the latter.

Huyton Village has suffered from the regen agenda you find as a consequence in all poorer areas, namely, hardly any local business, these all being pushed out by the council to bring in 'names' so the shopping is the ultimate clone town in miniature. The environment around most of these areas is utterly degraded, so things like the pockets of old woodland left over as amenity when housing was built, mainly in the 30s' are wrecked, burnt trees and shit.

I have mentioned before perhaps my 'identity' with downtown comes from the ease in which we could access it, having always lives very close to the A57. huyton not providing any real counters, so even for basic things this usually meant a trip downtown.

As you mentioned there are some really good villa estates and some grand houses, there is an interesting retaining wall around some flats on Prescot Rd... not much else.

The people in the streets around about are generally nice... nothing really special stands out. Most of the things I could have identified and built roots around from childhood etc have largely gone. So school, the old tram terminus, the flats I lived in when I first left home etc have all gone, mainly to keep council funds circulating, never making an improvement. Some interesting recent history... the big prisoner of war camp was in Hillside and my school buildings in the infants and juniors at St Columbas where the barrack huts and nisan halls from this. The characters in Skully and other Bleasdale plays are based of people who lived around that area and went to the school.

There is not much activity beyond that provided by the council or other agencies... bit like living in the Soviet Union.. or the North East!

I live in Maghull... its alright like, could be better but then I suppose you always know what you don't like about the place you live. In the context of this thread Maghull is a proper suburb I suppose. It has a centre which is generally thriving and a good community police force and council - the extent of the problems tends to be some youths gathering, or a pot hole in the road round here... dont tend to hear people talking about deprevation or lack of jobs, the lack of any sort of Job Centre is evidence of that.

Having said that everything seems to be at a rather slow pace. It doesnt having any thriving investment although in recent years new apartment developments are much more frequent (perhaps a drive to keep younger generations from moving out towards the city??) Most people that live here tend to commute... this can be seem by the vast amounts of people that use Merseyrail at peak times. Ive been hearing forever about how the owners of the "Square" which is Maghulls main shopping area are planning redevelopment but the most Ive seen in the 18 years I have lived here is a retarmac of the car park and new lighting. Also, in terms of amenities there are no leisure facilities apart from parks and tennis courts... in fact they have been planning a leisure centre for years at the Town Hall and nothing much has materialised yet, would you expect this from an area thats supposed to be kinda afluent??

Is that what you were lookin for L8?

Cheers, sure is. How does being so near Ashworth impact on people living nearby? Or is that seen as Moss Side? Is Ashworth a big employer of locals? Are you near the canal? Any plans for development near to the canal?

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Well, I live in Vauxhall/Scotland Road area that Tony has mentioned above. This area would probably be called 'inner city' rather than a suburb and is no where near being called an 'affluent suburb' of the city. I think there are millions of reasons why Vauxhall is totally different to areas such as Aigburth/Crosby or anywhere else in Liverpool for that matter. I think firstly as L8 mentioned, the lack of wealth is a huge factor in determining the appearance of Vauxhall, however this is also combined with a number of things such as; the lack of ambition/support from the council;the mindset of the population and social exclusion.

If you look at Vauxhall from the train travelling from Moorfields to Sandhills you would be surprised to think that this area with its canalside homes and suburban-look housing is the 6th most deprived area within the UK. After doing a recent report on Vauxhall as part of my degree I found a number of things which led to the areas decline. The huge decline in population, which is still declining is a huge factor. The local population can't even support the number of churches or schools within the area. Recently a number of schools have closed along with social clubs and churches not to mention the number of shop and pubs which closed along Scotland Road.

Another factor is the mindset of the people that live here. Although I live in a nice 'brookside' style suburban type house (which we own) the people who live amongst us in the area have a very different almost anti-work lifestyle. However I would not tarnish all of the people in the area with the same brush but these are hard facts if you look at the census results or any other statistics on the area. Linked with the mindset is also the social exclusion which people in the area are faced with. Basically a lot of people, it could be said, are let down by the system. Education within the area is extremely poor. Along with the opportunities of further education and training. This basically sets people up within the area to follow the cycle of poverty.

However one thing about Vauxhall is it's sense of community, fair enough it lacks it's tree-lined boulevards and swanky bars, but these people have fought for everything they've got. The council killed the area with the de-population schemes and the Mersey Tunnel and haven't helped teh area majorly since. It's the local population which have fought to build the Eldonian Village, Athol Village, Elaine Norris Sport Centre, Sylvestrian Social club etc etc and fought to keep everyone of its school's open.

Finally, I think although with all its bad parts the area of Vauxhall isn't the worse place in Liverpool, in fact in parts it is very nice. I think also that the future of the area is bright with Tobacco Wharf, ELdon Grove, more canalside developments; Project Jennifer and projects around the Central Docks contributing to the future benefit of the area.

Huyton can be nice, it can also be a shithole. The area the train goes through is largely the nice part, some really nice wealthy old housing for businesmen who took advantage of the line to create suburbia (another claim to fame for Liverpool?)

Going North the mix of housing estates is telling, the private housing estates are fine, but most of the council estates have declined so none of them are appealing... I live in one of the latter.

Huyton Village has suffered from the regen agenda you find as a consequence in all poorer areas, namely, hardly any local business, these all being pushed out by the council to bring in 'names' so the shopping is the ultimate clone town in miniature. The environment around most of these areas is utterly degraded, so things like the pockets of old woodland left over as amenity when housing was built, mainly in the 30s' are wrecked, burnt trees and shit.

I have mentioned before perhaps my 'identity' with downtown comes from the ease in which we could access it, having always lives very close to the A57. huyton not providing any real counters, so even for basic things this usually meant a trip downtown.

As you mentioned there are some really good villa estates and some grand houses, there is an interesting retaining wall around some flats on Prescot Rd... not much else.

The people in the streets around about are generally nice... nothing really special stands out. Most of the things I could have identified and built roots around from childhood etc have largely gone. So school, the old tram terminus, the flats I lived in when I first left home etc have all gone, mainly to keep council funds circulating, never making an improvement. Some interesting recent history... the big prisoner of war camp was in Hillside and my school buildings in the infants and juniors at St Columbas where the barrack huts and nisan halls from this. The characters in Skully and other Bleasdale plays are based of people who lived around that area and went to the school.

There is not much activity beyond that provided by the council or other agencies... bit like living in the Soviet Union.. or the North East!

Thanks To', I'm feeling it. Where do people hang out in the evening? Restaurants? Bars? Chinese chippY? Any plans for a multiplex? How many trains an hour to Lime Street and what time is the last one back? I guess there must be a night bus? What's the relationship like between Huyton and Prescot?

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That whole area along the north docks up to Everton Brow is vital to the future of the whole city... massive potential for revival, huge consequences for the whole city if it is not grasped!

That's just the point L8... there is not too much of that type of leisure activity going on. No restaurants, the pubs are all closing down too! there are a number of catholic parochial clubs but ones associated with companies BI, Plesseys etc) have long followed the factories themselves.

The schools are begining to play an increasing role in community life, offering evening activities etc, but that hardly touches upon most folks daily lives.. most kids just hang around the shops I'm afraid. Lots of bands etc come from Huyton, but that is all based downtown, there are no practice rooms or other cultural infrastructure here.

Prescot is another place... and that is it's attraction. it is a proper town, with a proper identity, and all of the social, business and civic institutions you would expect to find in Welles or where ever... even things like the Masons and Rotary can function up there. When we were kids there was the obvious trouble with woolybacks etc, but soon found out the copping for girls was better than chasing or being chased by gangs of lads was a better interest to follow.

Huyton just doesn't have those facilities.. it being a soulless suburb an all like!

So it was all jump on the bus and get downtown if you want anything resembling a life.. my favourite 'local' haunts was the pierhead and london rd.. either those, or the street corner! Being poor of course didn't help... no car for trips to the country, seaside very occasionally.. etc, etc, etc.... I will go and find one of those violin emoticons!

Well, I live in Vauxhall/Scotland Road area that Tony has mentioned above. This area would probably be called 'inner city' rather than a suburb and is no where near being called an 'affluent suburb' of the city. I think there are millions of reasons why Vauxhall is totally different to areas such as Aigburth/Crosby or anywhere else in Liverpool for that matter. I think firstly as L8 mentioned, the lack of wealth is a huge factor in determining the appearance of Vauxhall, however this is also combined with a number of things such as; the lack of ambition/support from the council;the mindset of the population and social exclusion.

If you look at Vauxhall from the train travelling from Moorfields to Sandhills you would be surprised to think that this area with its canalside homes and suburban-look housing is the 6th most deprived area within the UK. After doing a recent report on Vauxhall as part of my degree I found a number of things which led to the areas decline. The huge decline in population, which is still declining is a huge factor. The local population can't even support the number of churches or schools within the area. Recently a number of schools have closed along with social clubs and churches not to mention the number of shop and pubs which closed along Scotland Road.

Another factor is the mindset of the people that live here. Although I live in a nice 'brookside' style suburban type house (which we own) the people who live amongst us in the area have a very different almost anti-work lifestyle. However I would not tarnish all of the people in the area with the same brush but these are hard facts if you look at the census results or any other statistics on the area. Linked with the mindset is also the social exclusion which people in the area are faced with. Basically a lot of people, it could be said, are let down by the system. Education within the area is extremely poor. Along with the opportunities of further education and training. This basically sets people up within the area to follow the cycle of poverty.

However one thing about Vauxhall is it's sense of community, fair enough it lacks it's tree-lined boulevards and swanky bars, but these people have fought for everything they've got. The council killed the area with the de-population schemes and the Mersey Tunnel and haven't helped teh area majorly since. It's the local population which have fought to build the Eldonian Village, Athol Village, Elaine Norris Sport Centre, Sylvestrian Social club etc etc and fought to keep everyone of its school's open.

Finally, I think although with all its bad parts the area of Vauxhall isn't the worse place in Liverpool, in fact in parts it is very nice. I think also that the future of the area is bright with Tobacco Wharf, ELdon Grove, more canalside developments; Project Jennifer and projects around the Central Docks contributing to the future benefit of the area.

In terms of the challenges Vauxhall faces and its latent potential, it sounds not unlike L8 and other parts of the inner city. How to avoid further marginalising those members of our community who have adopted survival strategies which ultimately create havoc for everyone else is something I wish I knew the answer to.

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West Derby's alright actually. It's full of Tony Soprano types, which is actually a good thing as they ensure no shit happens on their doorstep. We don't really have a scally problem either these days, not since a gang of them attacked some pure mafia boss and they all had to go into hiding permanenty. The downside is, if you go out for a pint in the village, you get the sons and daughters of these types acting like wiseguys, which is why I'm not really a fan of drinking in the village, even though it's quite a nice setting.

Here's the same road in Winter and Spring. Actually, only a few weeks separate the two.

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Quintessential surburbia and yet surrounded by places like Norris Green, Croxteth, and ex Canny-Farm. Very interesting vibe. What do you call that part of Liverpool? East Liverpool? Wasn't there a time when West Derby lorded it over L'pool, several centuries ago, of course! How much of historic West Derby is left?

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Quintessential surburbia and yet surrounded by places like Norris Green, Croxteth, and ex Canny-Farm. Very interesting vibe. What do you call that part of Liverpool? East Liverpool? Wasn't there a time when West Derby lorded it over L'pool, several centuries ago, of course! How much of historic West Derby is left?

Yes, it's usually referred to as East Liverpool, but sometimes north if the city is divided into only two sections. The old village is pretty much still intact, though more bustling than a village, a village within a city. I'll take some photos of it later on or tomorrow.

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Yes, it's usually referred to as East Liverpool, but sometimes north if the city is divided into only two sections. The old village is pretty much still intact, though more bustling than a village, a village within a city. I'll take some photos of it later on or tomorrow.

Looking forward to seeing more photos!

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Cheers, sure is. How does being so near Ashworth impact on people living nearby? Or is that seen as Moss Side? Is Ashworth a big employer of locals? Are you near the canal? Any plans for development near to the canal?

I am quite near the canal and to be honest development doesnt seem to centre around the canal at all. Thinking off the top of my head along the run of the canal in Maghull and Lydiate its pretty established all the way along by houses, pubs and runs near to the central amenities... I think probably from the times the canal was originally used. Thinkin about it a few nice little pubs actually - the canal is usually thriving in our area in the summer and even more so as you move up past Lydiate.

In reference to Ashworth I am probably a little biased as I actually work there which partly answers your question. I know quite a few people from Maghull that work there but by no means all people from the immediate area, given that over 2000 people work at the Maghull site. In terms of the local perceptions they are mixed... there was a letter in the local rag lately in reference to the increased security measures about to be installed and how "the community had put up with Ashworth for long enough" and that local people didnt want "psychopaths" to be in their community. Sadly the trust didnt publish a reply I wanted to but it would be more than my job is worth... What she failed to realise is that the hospital has been there since 1872 and is solely responsible for most of the immediate housing. I am sure I dont need to tell you how much the community has been gained by the hospitals presence and ironically she was opposing the hospital in general but also its security which I would have thought she would welcome in keeping the patients inside where they should be... Her ignorance and stupidity astounded me!!