Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

I've always found the "a SS every 1,000 years" part in the Super Saiyan legend odd. I know it's merely a legend, meaning that it's not necessarily true (no matter how much you want to twist it with theories that it's only referring to full-blooded Saiyans or whatever), but how would they even think up an aspect of the legend like this? It's not as if they would record every single instance of a Saiyan who may or may not have surpassed the limits of a normal Saiyan for thousands of years, and then make their basis on that.

This only supports my opinion that the previous "Super Saiyans" in the past weren't Super Saiyans at all; they were just exceptionally strong Saiyans who everyone lauded as such. Essentially, Gokuu was the first true Super Saiyan, confusing even Freeza, who knew of the legend, yet didn't clock onto the fact that he was a SS until he said himself after he was knocking him around, previously believing that Saiyans could only transform into Oozaru (which, incidentally, also supports my opinion that SS was treated as more of a level of power, than a transformation, and that it wasn't something that just one Saiyan could reach).

Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Saiyans don't strike me as the type of people to keep any sort of history beyond tales around the campfire. Whenever the last Super Saiyan was, it's likely the "legend" stemmed from first-hand witnesses telling the story, which became somewhat distorted and exaggerated over time.

I'm more of the opinion that the "first legendary saiyan" was just a myth, that took an underground following, and Freeza just caught wind of this. Take the numerous paranormal phenomena that took place on Earth 500 or even 50 years ago (Christian Relics and Miracles for example), and have entered the popular subconsciousness of millions as memes. In the case of this, we don't know about what Saiyan records have of this phenomenon, or if it was just a tale the same way Dante's Inferno was a piece of fiction that pertained to real people and events.

Well if you embrace the supplemental material, it does tell of a Super Saiyan appearing 1,000 years before Goku's time, and lists it as an actual event on the Time Line. So, it would seem, there's truth to the legend. Even ignoring the Daizenshuu, Freeza himself has a premonition about it, as he stated to Zarbon. We know Freeza has some pretty wicked abilities, so if he's thinking this way, then there simply must be truth to the legend.

Hm, out of curiosity, I just flipped back to that part of Freeza's ominous premonition. After he's done speaking to Zarbon, he's thinking to himself... and in the last panel, he's shown looking worried and sweating as he thinks "After all... it would be more than a nuisance... were one of them to become a Super Saiyan."

What do you make of that line? As for Freeza being completly clueless when Goku transformed, that isn't exactly so, either. At first he's confused, but it dawns on him rather quickly "Don't tell me... !!"

FindKenshi wrote:Well if you embrace the supplemental material, it does tell of a Super Saiyan appearing 1,000 years before Goku's time, and lists it as an actual event on the Time Line. So, it would seem, there's truth to the legend. Even ignoring the Daizenshuu, Freeza himself has a premonition about it, as he stated to Zarbon. We know Freeza has some pretty wicked abilities, so if he's thinking this way, then there simply must be truth to the legend.

Hm, out of curiosity, I just flipped back to that part of Freeza's ominous premonition. After he's done speaking to Zarbon, he's thinking to himself... and in the last panel, he's shown looking worried and sweating as he thinks "After all... it would be more than a nuisance... were one of them to become a Super Saiyan."

What do you make of that line? As for Freeza being completly clueless when Goku transformed, that isn't exactly so, either. At first he's confused, but it dawns on him rather quickly "Don't tell me... !!"

Indeed. And let's not forget that everything Freeza said was made up by Toriyama. So what Freeza thinks is what Toriyama was thinking. A Super Saiyan has existed before.

FindKenshi wrote:Well if you embrace the supplemental material, it does tell of a Super Saiyan appearing 1,000 years before Goku's time, and lists it as an actual event on the Time Line. So, it would seem, there's truth to the legend. Even ignoring the Daizenshuu, Freeza himself has a premonition about it, as he stated to Zarbon. We know Freeza has some pretty wicked abilities, so if he's thinking this way, then there simply must be truth to the legend.

Hm, out of curiosity, I just flipped back to that part of Freeza's ominous premonition. After he's done speaking to Zarbon, he's thinking to himself... and in the last panel, he's shown looking worried and sweating as he thinks "After all... it would be more than a nuisance... were one of them to become a Super Saiyan."

What do you make of that line? As for Freeza being completly clueless when Goku transformed, that isn't exactly so, either. At first he's confused, but it dawns on him rather quickly "Don't tell me... !!"

Indeed. And let's not forget that everything Freeza said was made up by Toriyama. So what Freeza thinks is what Toriyama was thinking. A Super Saiyan has existed before.

Not necessarily. The fact that Freeza didn't immediately clock on to the fact that Goku was a Super Saiyan after he clearly changed in appearance is somewhat telling, even if not by much. But still relevant.

And I don't think that Freeza literally had a premonition, like he had precognition or anything. Nothing suggests that anyway. I interpreted it as meaning that he merely had a bad feeling that a Super Saiyan would appear soon. I mean, Vegeta was getting stronger and had already defeated Dodoria, while the supposed weakling and his son on Earth had somehow defeated Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa. Of course, Freeza's not certain of it himself, but sometimes you can't explain bad senses like that.

Either way, it doesn't change my opinion that a Super Saiyan had never existed before. I choose to interpret the supplementary material's timeline including the Super Saiyan as possibly being the exceptionally strong Saiyan who may've started off the whole legend or merely been one of the Super Saiyans in a line of others, but he wasn't a real SS. He was just really, really strong.

Goku being the first SS just makes it more special and has more impact to the story. After all, the SS is supposed to be the strongest in the universe, and he defeated Freeza, the strongest in the universe.

Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Not necessarily. The fact that Freeza didn't immediately clock on to the fact that Goku was a Super Saiyan after he clearly changed in appearance is somewhat telling, even if not by much. But still relevant.

Well, I already pointed this out, but Freeza did catch on, almost immeditaly. At first he didn't know what was going on, but then very soon after he was like "Oh no, don't tell me that he's a--"

Piccolo Daimao wrote:And I don't think that Freeza literally had a premonition, like he had precognition or anything. Nothing suggests that anyway.

He said he did, though. In the story. This isn't something I'm just making up.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Goku being the first SS just makes it more special and has more impact to the story.

To me, the opposite is true. So you're basically saying "the legend of the Super Saiyan is false, then Goku becomes the first one." Don't you see that as being kind of silly? And it paints Super Saiyan into just one great big coincidence.

Dunno. It's a tough pill for me to swallow. It's easier to just accept statements though. If something says there was a Super Saiyan 1,000 years ago, it's easier to just accept that, instead of "interpreting" it to mean the opposite--that there wasn't one.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Not necessarily. The fact that Freeza didn't immediately clock on to the fact that Goku was a Super Saiyan after he clearly changed in appearance is somewhat telling, even if not by much. But still relevant.

Well, I already pointed this out, but Freeza did catch on, almost immeditaly. At first he didn't know what was going on, but then very soon after he was like "Oh no, don't tell me that he's a--"

Yeah, that's not "immediately", though.

FindKenshi wrote:

Piccolo Daimao wrote:And I don't think that Freeza literally had a premonition, like he had precognition or anything. Nothing suggests that anyway.

He said he did, though. In the story. This isn't something I'm just making up.

I just looked at the Strength Checker and it reveals that Freeza never mentioned anything about a premonition. Just Freeza saying that he somehow had the feeling that a formidable Saiyan was growing, but it wasn't Vegeta.

Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 264 (DBZ 70), P5.5, P6.1Context: Freeza and Zarbon discuss the strengths of the remaining Saiyans. Freeza: “I’ve been thinking for awhile now…Somehow…I get the feeling that a formidable Saiyan is growing, and will become a challenge for me before too long…At first I thought it was Vegeta, but it seems I was wrong…”Zarbon: “You’re probably getting worried over nothing…The only ones besides Vegeta are that person on ‘Earth’ or whatever that planet what called, and his kid…Their battle powers are supposed to be far lower than Vegeta’s…”

I don't think you can really look much further into it than that, though. Freeza had a vague hunch that even he didn't understand, and it happened to be true. It was just Toriyama's weird (but unique, for him) attempt at foreshadowing.

FindKenshi wrote:

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Goku being the first SS just makes it more special and has more impact to the story.

To me, the opposite is true. So you're basically saying "the legend of the Super Saiyan is false, then Goku becomes the first one." Don't you see that as being kind of silly? And it paints Super Saiyan into just one great big coincidence.

Dunno. It's a tough pill for me to swallow. It's easier to just accept statements though. If something says there was a Super Saiyan 1,000 years ago, it's easier to just accept that, instead of "interpreting" it to mean the opposite--that there wasn't one.

Well...yes, that's what I'm saying. The legend is false. It's a legend, after all. The same legend that painted a picture of the Super Saiyan being a fighter who loved blood and battle above all. The battle part is true (although it's within pretty much all Saiyans), but not the blood part. We get, like, five Super Saiyans all coming in one after the other within 10 years, which blatantly contradicts the legend. And of them all, only Vegeta loves bloodshed.

The Super Saiyan wasn't a coincidence. My theory is that the people were painted as Super Saiyans were merely Saiyans who had surpassed the limits of a normal Saiyan (like Goku when he fought the Ginyu Force) and were probably on the road to becoming one, but didn't, either because they weren't at the right level, didn't have the right ki control, or didn't have a rage catalyst.

Everyone have different opinions. I'm not denying the possibility that there was at least one true Super Saiyan before Gokuu. My theory may be able to include that, and that the other supposed Super Saiyans were, as I said, just really strong Saiyans. But my point is that since legends are legends, those that can be, as Kaboom said, "distorted and exaggerated over time", and we simply don't know enough about the history of the Saiyans and the Super Saiyan legend, nothing's set in stone and everyone's free to have their own beliefs and interpretations.

Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:And I don't think that Freeza literally had a premonition, like he had precognition or anything. Nothing suggests that anyway.

He said he did, though. In the story. This isn't something I'm just making up.

"Premonition" doesn't automatically mean "precognition", though. Piccolo Daimao's interpretation of it just being a "bad feeling" based on what's going on at the time is pretty much the definition of the word. And even if it was some sort of supernatural premonition of the future--that some Saiyan would become strong enough to be a problem for him--it still makes no difference if there was a gold-haired Super Saiyan a thousand years ago or not.

Would it be a coincidence? I...suppose so... Mostly because the thousand year timing seems to work out just right. Then again, if you really think about it, the existence of the legend itself is what lead to a lot of the fighting and improvements in strength at that point in history. If Freeza hadn't feared the legend and hadn't destroyed Planet Vegeta, would anyone have actually attained the golden-haired form? Maybe the legend itself--whether it was speaking of exactly the same thing Goku attained or not--influenced events enough to create such a coincidence in timing.

PhoenixEX wrote:Isn't Bardock the Legendary Saiyan in the myths?

If you considered Episode of Bardock to be canon to Toriyama's manga, then yes. If not, then no. It's pretty unlikely Toriyama had it in mind when he originally came up with the myth, to say the least.

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Besides, as I aforementioned, the original has Freeza saying that he has a feeling, not a premonition.

Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Yet it happened in what must have been the span of seconds, in-universe.

Piccolo Daimao wrote:I don't think you can really look much further into it than that, though. Freeza had a vague hunch that even he didn't understand, and it happened to be true. It was just Toriyama's weird (but unique, for him) attempt at foreshadowing.

I was focusing on the part after he was done talking to Zarbon. Freeza directly thought about Super Saiyans, and was shown to look worried about it.

Yet it happened in what must have been the span of seconds, in-universe.

Yeah, but it's pretty clear he didn't expect Super Saiyans to be a transformation. Up to that point everyone treats it like a Super Saiyan would look no different from a regular Saiyan, and Freeza even says outright that "Saiyans only turn into great apes!" He just comes to the conclusion that he must now be a Super Saiyan because of how much power he'd suddenly attained. Honestly, Goku could have turned into anything with unbelievable strength at that moment (except for a giant monkey, of course) and Freeza would have called it a Super Saiyan.

I was focusing on the part after he was done talking to Zarbon. Freeza directly thought about Super Saiyans, and was shown to look worried about it.

But what does that prove? Vegeta thought he'd become a Super Saiyan once or twice as well, and Ginyu thought Goku might be one when he fought him. They all thought there might be truth to the legend, but that doesn't mean the legend was true, or that the gold-haired form is what it was talking about.

Having said all that, I'm not saying that I don't think the gold-haired form is the Super Saiyan the legend spoke of. I just don't think there's anything that contradicts Piccolo Daimao's theory, either.

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Bussani wrote:Yeah, but it's pretty clear he didn't expect Super Saiyans to be a transformation. Up to that point everyone treats it like a Super Saiyan would look no different from a regular Saiyan, and Freeza even says outright that "Saiyans only turn into great apes!" He just comes to the conclusion that he must now be a Super Saiyan because of how much power he'd suddenly attained. Honestly, Goku could have turned into anything with unbelievable strength at that moment (except for a giant monkey, of course) and Freeza would have called it a Super Saiyan.

All that being said, I still disagree. Here's why. While the legend doesn't specifically call for it to be a transformation, the legend does differentiate it from regular Saiyans. It's not just what he's saying a Saiyan that just so happens to be REALLY strong. It's actually a "strongest warrior in all the universe." So it definitely has to be something special and out of the ordinary to classify as a Super Saiyan.

Freeza and his underlings know the legend, possibly better than the Saiyans themselves know it. When Ginyu is afraid of Goku's powers, he begins comparing him to the legend and finds him lacking, due to his gentle nature. So the Super Saiyan is clearly more than just a really strong saiyan. There were other aspects that made him a different creature altogether, like his bloodlust.

Bussani wrote:But what does that prove?

That Freeza already know the Super Saiyan is more than just a false legend, even back at this point in the story. He knows it's something different and believes it to be "troublesome" if someone became one. Also Freeza even thinking about a "regular" saiyan "becoming" a super Saiyan seems to lean towards my side of the fence, which he does indeed word it that way.

Bussani wrote:Having said all that, I'm not saying that I don't think the gold-haired form is the Super Saiyan the legend spoke of.

Eh, in some circles that could be seen as arguing just for the sake of arguing then : P aka devil's advocate.Anyway, before we continue this I really think it should be pointed out that this is a case of "opinion vs. opinion." Neither of us are going to change our minds, though I'd like to think that Piccolo D. is in the minority, here. A statement is a statement. There was supposedly another Super Saiyan 1,000 years ago. That is pretty cut and dry.

If we're going to say it's wrong because they don't know any better, where does it stop? So is Trunks's statement about the androids being stronger than the ones in his time also wrong, because maybe they never went all out against him. We both know that's not how it works. A statement is fact until proven otherwise in the court of DB Law.

FindKenshi wrote:All that being said, I still disagree. Here's why. While the legend doesn't specifically call for it to be a transformation, the legend does differentiate it from regular Saiyans. It's not just what he's saying a Saiyan that just so happens to be REALLY strong. It's actually a "strongest warrior in all the universe." So it definitely has to be something special and out of the ordinary to classify as a Super Saiyan.

A base Saiyan being [insert arbitrary really strong value here] would be special and out of the ordinary.

That Freeza already know the Super Saiyan is more than just a false legend, even back at this point in the story. He knows it's something different and believes it to be "troublesome" if someone became one.

But what does that prove? We know that Freeza thinks there might be some truth to the legend--there almost always is with legends. That doesn't tell us what the Super Saiyan from the legend actually was. This isn't even a new theory, really. A lot of people think the Super Saiyan from a thousand years ago might have been something else, like a giant golden monkey, or even what we call Super Saiyan 4. Even the GT Perfect Guides hinted at that possibility. Of course, that's GT, "GT's not canon", yadda yadda--point is it's not just fans that entertain the possibility.

Also Freeza even thinking about a "regular" saiyan "becoming" a super Saiyan seems to lean towards my side of the fence, which he does indeed word it that way.

If you're not born a Super Saiyan, of course you have to become one. That doesn't tell us anything either.

Eh, in some circles that could be seen as arguing just for the sake of arguing then : P aka devil's advocate.

Maybe it is, and there's nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, but that wasn't my actual intent. I was just saying that there's nothing that makes Piccolo Daimao's theory is impossible. No one else has to agree with it, but, in my opinion, it does "work".

A statement is a statement. There was supposedly another Super Saiyan 1,000 years ago. That is pretty cut and dry.

His theory doesn't even disagree with that. It only questions what the Super Saiyan one thousand years ago actually was.

So is Trunks's statement about the androids being stronger than the ones in his time also wrong, because maybe they never went all out against him. We both know that's not how it works.

Do we now?

I actually think Trunks being wrong makes more sense, personally...

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Agreed with you, TC. The so called 'super saiyans of legend' were simply just exceptionally strong Saiyans. Probably in the lower 100ks. Something to be awed at, but nothing spectacular. The way Nappa and Vegeta reference SSJs before there actually is one, is as if it isn't an actual transformation, but just an amount of power one has to achieve. Like Mystic Power-up, I guess, just not nearly as strong, of course. Well, scratch that, cause it still has to be 'transformed' into.

But like, SSJs of legend were just powerful saiyans, not actual SSJs. They never transformed, or else that would have definitely been passed down through legend, of the super saiyan with blonde hair and incredible power...

My opinion is: NONE of the SSJs are actually SSJs. Writing a fanfic about it.Broly probably was though, but he doesn't count since he is in movies which do not fit the timelines at all.Because, see, 'infinite power'? None of our heroes have infinite power and normal SSJ becomes massively undermined by the time the Androids arrive. Surely if Gero had not predicted SSJs then why the hell would the androids be so much stronger?So many more powerful people arrive that I cannot believe that SSJ is THE SSJ they were talking about.Otherwise, like you said, it could be misinterpretation- SSJ could simply be what Goku achieved when he was on the ship and was fighting the GF, like Vegeta said.

SON GOTEN FTWexcept GT GotenEspecially after he went out with Paresu-chan

The Super Saiyan every thousand years was a mistranslation. Vegeta simply stated that Goku was the first Super Saiyan in 1,000 years, which can either mean that multiple Super Saiyans existed ancient Saiyan history, or that only one had achieve it before, and it simply had occurred 1,000 years before.

But for plotline consistency's sake, Vegeta also mentions to Nappa in his introductory appearence that they would "take their place(s) amongst the Super Saiyans of legend", which suggests there was more then one Super Saiyan....even though I realize my second argument is moot now that it was already covered by previous posts.

I wipe it off the tile, the light is brighter this time, everything is 3D blasphemy. My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up, this is not the way I picture me. I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here? Something about this, so very wrong. I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this. Is it a dream or a memory?