I am tossing up getting into the pedelec game in the hope that it will make my 25km commute a more regular occurrence. Currently my 12 hour days plus the commute don't often make it appealing, especially when I know the wind will be blowing the wrong way on the way home.

My question relates to whether a conversion is worth the cost: Bionx kits can cost up to $2000.00, an eZee kit from $1500.00. But I can buy a new electric bike for not much more than this and in some cases much less.

So what's the benefit? I kind of like my beaten up old $500 clunker: it has a dyno-generator on the front, good lights, strong (albeit slow) wheels, a good Tubus rack, great Brooks seat. But...what direction should I go?

You can convert for much less than this. These kits are excellent all inclusive kits with everything you need included.

There are other quality options - but if you order from overseas there is obviously no easy warranty...

Have a look at endless-sphere forum for more information. Once reputable seller is cell_man (and endless sphere member) who is an englishman working in China. He sells kits and batteries and has a good reputation. I have just purchased a battery from him and am awaiting its arrival.His site is:http://em3ev.com

In any case, I have the Ezee front wheel hub and 20amp controller on my bike combined with an old 36 volt battery from a previous kit. It works well but looks messy because I put all the wiring together myself. Hoping to improve that with the new battery...

Obviously you would want a rear wheel conversion if you have the dynamo on the front hub so the Ezee kit available in Oz is not suitable for you. Ezee does make a rear wheel hub too. See [url]ebikes.ca[/url]

Good luck and feel free to post questions or pm me if you intend to build your own kit.

I agree with Hamster on the battery size. You need more than is supplied with the Dillenger kits. For a 25km commute even with a 10Ah battery you will want to be charging at work too. On my first kit, with a 10Ah battery when it was new it did have a range of 80km with strong pedalling from me but it was a bit breathless in the last 20-30km.

Fresh off the charger the voltage of the battery is higher and you get more assistance. The difference is quite noticeable.After the first few months, I purchased a second charger and the battery has lasted two years.36volt Li battery will have a charge of about 42volts fresh off the charger. At full discharge it will have about 33 volts. When you apply a load to the battery (eg take off from a stand-still) the voltage will sag. For a good quality battery the voltage will sag only a little, with poor quality the voltage will sag a lot. A larger capacity battery will also sag less. Voltage sag causes the battery to heat up and will damage it a bit each time if there is too much heat. The other thing to think about it that you don't want the battery voltage to drop below about 33 volts or the battery may be irreversibly damaged. At half discharge (36v) with a sag of 3 volts under load you get dangerously close to dropping below the minimum voltage every time you take off or have to go up a hill...

My new battery from cell_man uses cylindrical (not polymer) cells with LiNiCoAl (NCA) chemistry with Samsung branded cells. It has a 17Ah capacity and will be smaller and lighter than the battery supplied with my original kit (which was not a very good quality battery).

One of the reasons the Ezee kit costs $1500 is that the battery cells are Samsung Cells with an inbuilt battery management system for both the discharge and charge circuits - very good quality.

I'd ask Dillenger what brand the cells in the bottle battery are. The motor looks like a Bafang 8fun motor.

cachexian wrote:Have a look at endless-sphere forum for more information. Once reputable seller is cell_man (and endless sphere member) who is an englishman working in China. He sells kits and batteries and has a good reputation. I have just purchased a battery from him and am awaiting its arrival.His site is:http://em3ev.com

In any case, I have the Ezee front wheel hub and 20amp controller on my bike combined with an old 36 volt battery from a previous kit. It works well but looks messy because I put all the wiring together myself. Hoping to improve that with the new battery...

Do you know if cell_man sells a street legal hub ? All I could find on that site are 350w, 500w & 100w motors

No. I don't know. I suggest that you contact the owner of the business. He was really very helpful when I was trying to buy my battery.

I think that the 350W rating for the Mac motor is the maximum continuous power that the motor can handle. It can be combined with a 48volt battery, which I would assume is the 350w continuous power output rating or a 36 volt battery, which would be more equivalent to 250watts.

I think that most 250watt kits in Australia combine a 15-25Amp controller with a 36 volt battery. It is the amps of the controller and the volts of the battery that determines how many watts of power are being used, not the actual rating of the motor.

The thing that I like about the EM3EV (cell_man) kits is the ability to choose so many options ie select windings in the motor for more torque or higher top speed. It is good that the motor is capable of higher power input - even if you are not using the full capability of the motor - it's best that not to use it up to its highest limit.

The range of an electric bike depends upon many variables such as hills, wind, rider input, weight, tyre pressures, style of bike, posture etc.The following however might be useful:

A 36 volt 10 amp-Hr has a total or 360 watt-Hrs available (assuming fully charged and in good condition). A brushless electric motor is around 80% efficient so to get a 200 watts output there has to be an input of 250 watts (200/.. What that means is that the battery is capable of running the motor for 1.44 hours (360/250). Assuming zero rider input and a speed of 24 kph that will give you a maximum range of 34.5 kms. HOWEVER, fully discharging any battery greatly reduces its life so this is an absolute maximum.

The maximum depth of discharge that I’d consider reasonable is 75% (even that is beginning to flog the battery) so the available watt-hrs is reduced to 270 (360 X .75). That will give you a duration of 1.08 hours and a range of 26 kms.

With a recharge at work a 36 volt 10 amp-hr battery should be adequate, assuming that rider input is sufficient to overcome factors such as headwinds, hills etc.Although I feel that the results are a tad optimistic I find this calculator useful when wanting to know the power required to achieve a particular speed.

Thanks for the posts: sorry about the tardy response - I've been camping with my eight year old. We came home smelling like swaggies, my son more rested than me!

Interesting stuff about the amperage and battery discharge voltages and ranges which I will take into account.

Re-reading my original post it seems that I may not have been particularly clear on what I was confused about. That is, with say $2000.00 to spend, I am having trouble seeing value in a conversion kit vice a new pedelec bike. Is something like the Bionx worth it when compared to a similarly priced new bike with similar specs (battery size, voltage, amperage et cetera). It seems I can get a motor, battery and controller for the same price I can get the same, plus a bike!?

Peter, I converted my old 1998 Diamondback Sherwood Hybrid with a Bionx 350 HT rear rack large battery version http://ridebionx.com.au/ebike-systems/pl-350-l-rear-rack/ in May 2012. The Diamondback had been heavily converted from its original flat bar configuration to a drop bar configuration with sora sti levers.

I made the conversion because I had some health problems that made riding an unassisted bike difficult in the area I live. In 2003 I suffered pneumococcal sepsis that almost killed me and left me with a number of health issues including heart damage that resulted in a racing heart when put under strain. I was fine riding on the flat but even the slightest hill would result in my heart rate shooting through the roof. Unfortunately, I live in a very hilly area, with the hill I live on being 16%. Prior to my illness I was cycling 250 to 300 km per week.

My health problems give the background to why I wanted electric assist, unfortunately the conversion kits on the market prior to Bionx being released in Australia did not meet the requirements I was looking for. These were:

Firstly, I did not want an electric bike I wanted something that would help me reduce the strain on my heart in the hills. Basically I wanted a conversion that resulted in the bike riding similarly to an unassisted bike.

Secondly, I did not want a front wheel system that was based on a throttle. I specifically wanted a rear wheel drive but at the time I was unaware of pedelec systems.

Thirdly, I did not want to by an electric bike. I wanted to continue using my old faithful bike that I had put many thousands of kilometers on in commuting and tours and which fit me like a glove.

So my experiences with the conversion:

The kit was purchased from Sydney electric bikes who arranged for installation in my home town by a bike shop that the Bionx distributor had been in discussions with. I was less than pleased with the installation and service done on the bike prior to the installation. Fortunately Jake from Sydney electric bikes was most helpful in sorting out the installation deficits but I would never use or recommend the bike shop that did the installation. Unfortunately, self installation of the Bionx kit voids the warranty.

My experiences with the conversion:

The first point is that the kit that I used added 18 kg to the bike weight with most of the weight on the back wheel. This does change the feel of the bike, but was not that different to loaded touring that I had done on the bike. Evidently, the frame mount battery is significantly lighter and the weight is more evenly distributed. But, I am happy I went with the rear rack version.

My first ride home was an interesting experience as the installer had set it up with the flat bar setup rather than follow the instructions for drop bars which left the controls in a very awkward position. However, the short 3 km ride home demonstrated that this was a good buy. In particular, I could easily get up the steep hills on my way home with few problems. This ride was the only time I have ever used the throttle.

The first few weeks of riding resulted in several rear tire flats, I eventually concluded that the maxxis overdrives put on the bike at the time of conversion were not up to the job and replaced it with a shwalbe marathon plus for the rear wheel and have had no problems since. I would recommend only using tyres that are rated for ebike use on an electric wheel. However, having to change the rear wheel did demonstrate the need for a torque wrench to properly tighten the rear wheel so that the torque sensor in the hub works properly.

Riding the bike:

It took several months to gradually recondition my heart to a more normal response to exercise, and I am now riding 100 to 150 km per week, not always on the Bionx. I purchased a 2013 Vivente world randonneur in August and I am now using the Bionx about 50% of the time. I use the Bionx for all of my shopping trips and whenever there are strong headwinds forecast.

The Bionx assist modes from memory are 25%, 75%, 150% and 300% of the torque measured by the torque sensor. The 25% mode generally offsets the weight of the kit and the other 3 modes provide a much more significant assist. The system also has 4 generative modes that can be used to recharge the battery and also has regenerative braking. I tend to use the assist modes as granny gears, the first two depending on headwind conditions and the 150% and 300% on hills over 5%. For example, on my ride home today I cruised up a 1 km long, 6% average gradient hill at about 24 kph with a cadence of about 85 rpm. On downhills or on the flat with tailwinds I will often recharge the battery using the generative mode. My longest ride so far using the assist has been 50 km, this used about half the battery capacity. However, making maximum use of the power assist would probably reduce the range of my system to about 45 to 50 km.

When I recently made the decision to buy the VWR, I was considering two options, either getting a new rear wheel mad up and swapping the wheels out as required so that I could have a lighter unpowered bike now that it is not such a critical issue with my health or a second bike. I eventually went for a second bike for a number of reasons, firstly I wanted a new toy, secondly it would be a lot easier to just swap my garmin over to the other bike rather than change wheels and make any adjustments necessary for the gears to work properly, and finally I was a bit concerned that leaving the plugs exposed when the motor and battery were removed might result in damage.

Finally, I can thoroughly recommend the Bionx conversion. Whether it is a better option for you I cannot say as even an electric conversion may not overcome the psychological barriers to commuting. But the Bionx kit will certainly overcome headwinds.

PeterSD70 wrote:Thanks for the posts: sorry about the tardy response - I've been camping with my eight year old. We came home smelling like swaggies, my son more rested than me!

Interesting stuff about the amperage and battery discharge voltages and ranges which I will take into account.

Re-reading my original post it seems that I may not have been particularly clear on what I was confused about. That is, with say $2000.00 to spend, I am having trouble seeing value in a conversion kit vice a new pedelec bike. Is something like the Bionx worth it when compared to a similarly priced new bike with similar specs (battery size, voltage, amperage et cetera). It seems I can get a motor, battery and controller for the same price I can get the same, plus a bike!?

Thanks again,

Peter.

Sorry about not answering your actual question...

I think that there is value in both decisions. For you, since you are used to your old ride, I would say that a conversion kit would probably be the best bet. You can convert your existing bike and it will ride pretty much the same as you are used to. (Especially with a rear motor and frame mounted battery).

It is important that you are comparing apples with apples.The Ezee kit is a high quality kit - and can't be compared to the kit attached to some cheaper electric bicycles. If you compare the Ezee conversion kit ($1500) to an Ezee bike you will see that the Ezee bikes start from around $2000.

I personally converted my own bike because I was used to it, the frame fitted me well and I found some foibles with the electric bikes I tried. But it wasn't as easy to convert as I originally thought it would be... -I had to file the fork to fit the motor-The battery was too heavy for my rack - it fractured one mounting screw (M5 bolt) and eventually tore the screw from the frame. I had to bore out the hole and retap the hole for a M6 bolt. I now have the battery mounted in the triangle and an aluminium rack that I built.-After all the fiddling and messing around I have a really functional ebike that works extremely well but it does look quite messy with cables all over the place.

The Ezee kit and Bionx kit are much more expensive than some other conversion kits on the market. But they are both high quality and reliable with good warranty and service backup from local shops. If you purchase a cheaper kit, or one from overseas you won't necessarily get that service backup.

Pedalec sensors modulate the electric assistance depending on your pedalling cadence. The faster the pedals turn around the more assistance so going up a hill, you have to shift down to keep the pedals spinning or you'll find the the assistance cuts out just when you most need it.

The top speed of the motor is a consideration. What is your usual speed on the flat on your commuter bike? For me it's about 32kph. The Ezee kit spins out at about 35kph with a 700c wheel so I get assistance at my normal power input. My first motor's top speed was 30kph so it only assisted me to start and up hills. After that, it was all me. Good retailers, that know their product, will be able to tell you the maximum rpm of their motors. You can then calculate the maximum unloaded speed using your own tyre circumference.

Rear wheel conversions are usually only compatible with a 7 speed cluster - so check this.

I don't have a pedal sensor attached so I ride with the throttle on all the time. This works well for me since I always can get the exact assistance I need. However, my throttle hand does get tired after a long commute.

The Bionx is a direct drive motor, which means that it will proved resistance to rotation when the electric is not running. The Ezee kit is an internally geared motor, which can spin freely with no resistance to rotation. This affects you obviously if you run out of battery but also on downhills when you might have normally ridden above the maximum motor speed. The Ezee kit will not prevent you from going faster but the Bionx will. Mind you, the Bionx will allow you to put some charge back into the battery on the downhills. Also, I believe that direct drive motors are a bit more noisy than geared motors but you won't hear it anyway once you've go the wind whistling past your ears.

Pedalec sensors modulate the electric assistance depending on your pedalling cadence. The faster the pedals turn around the more assistance so going up a hill, you have to shift down to keep the pedals spinning or you'll find the the assistance cuts out just when you most need it.

The Bionx system modulates the assistance via a torque sensor in the motor hub that measures the torque provided by the rider through the chain. High pedal cadence in lower gears results in reduced torque at the sensor and reduced assistance. As the cadence slows and the torque at the sensor increases the assistance level increases. This effectively means that it is very easy to power up hills, including the 16% grade that I live on with the Bionx. The one exception here is when uphill speed is close to the speed limit cutout which is 25 kph to comply with Australian regulations. If you engage the assistance above these speeds whilst going up hill it feels like you have thrown out the anchor, engaging the level of assistance required prior to the hill seems to be the most effective use of the Bionx system.

cachexian wrote:Rear wheel conversions are usually only compatible with a 7 speed cluster - so check this.

This is incorrect with a Bionx system, which uses a screw on free wheel that attaches to the motor hub. My system is 8 speed at the time I purchased the system freewheels up to 10 speed were available.

cachexian wrote:The Bionx is a direct drive motor, which means that it will proved resistance to rotation when the electric is not running. The Ezee kit is an internally geared motor, which can spin freely with no resistance to rotation. This affects you obviously if you run out of battery but also on downhills when you might have normally ridden above the maximum motor speed. The Ezee kit will not prevent you from going faster but the Bionx will. Mind you, the Bionx will allow you to put some charge back into the battery on the downhills. Also, I believe that direct drive motors are a bit more noisy than geared motors but you won't hear it anyway once you've go the wind whistling past your ears.

The Bionx is an advanced high tech direct drive motor that is absolutely silent on the road and can spin freely with very little resistance to rotation in bicycle mode. My tyres make more noise than the motor. Whenever possible I ride without any assist at all to conserve battery charge. In still conditions on a flat road I can average 20 kph without any assistance from the motor. I will sometimes use what Bionx refers to as training mode on the flat to recharge the battery particularly if I have a tailwind. The biggest impediment to rotation when accelerating is the inertia associated with the 33kg weight of the bike with my 100 odd kg sitting on top of it and the marathon plus tire which stops punctures but is a real drag if I let it get down to 60 psi.

In bicycle mode there is no impediment to top speed going downhill with the Bionx. On one downhill section on my normal 30 km ride I will often hit speeds up to 50 kph in bicycle mode and on another section with a long 1% downgrade I will usually cruise at about 34 kph where my 44 tooth large ring spins out. Bionx does however advise not to exceed 32 kph in generative mode, I believe this warning is to avoid the potential for damaging the battery.

Peter, it may be worth your while to contact Jake at Sydney Electric bikes for his opinion as they sell both Bionx and Ezee kits. If you have a dealer near where you live it would be worthwhile trying for a test ride of both to find which suits you the most.

Went with a Bionx kit. I have put about 330km in a little over two weeks. I test rode the Bionx and some commercial bikes including a Gazelle. The Bionx had the most natural feel: very smooth, very natural, very unobtrusive. The only exception to this that I have found is if my speed is hovering around 25 km/h and I have it on the maximum assist setting (Level 4) where I can notice it "coming on" and "going off."

The other bikes were a little more intrusive. To be fair, I only rode them for 5-10 mins each. I think that after a few hours you wouldn't notice the "jerkiness" that I did on my short rides. In the end I went with the Bionx for it's natural feel and because I had an otherwise good set-up on my bike (front wheel, seat etc.). It was a pretty marginal call, however as it was a lot of money for a battery and motor, albeit a good battery and motor.

If I was going to guess, I would think that Bionx will do more business partnering with bike manufacturers to provide a complete system rather than conversion kits. That or drop their distributer model or offer lower prices.

PeterSD70 wrote:Went with a Bionx kit. I have put about 330km in a little over two weeks. I test rode the Bionx and some commercial bikes including a Gazelle. The Bionx had the most natural feel: very smooth, very natural, very unobtrusive. The only exception to this that I have found is if my speed is hovering around 25 km/h and I have it on the maximum assist setting (Level 4) where I can notice it "coming on" and "going off."

Peter,

I think you will enjoy the Bionx, the 25 kph cutout required by the legislation is a bit of a pain. I find that the key to a smooth ride is to use the assist levels like extra gears. I have a 22/32/44 triple crankset, I tend to only use the assist on the 32 chain ring, when on the 44 I use bicycle mode or occasionally generative mode. With the Bionx it would take a pretty steep hill to drop to the granny ring. You have to learn to modify your riding style to the 25 kph assist cutout. For me the major problem with the assist cutout wall was going into a climb after a fast downhill, the best solution is to select your gears so that you are spinning at a cadence of about 85 rpm, this reduces the amount of torque at the torque sensor, change down normally whilst maintaining a cadence in the 80s until your speed drops below 25 kph and the assist should kick in fairly smoothly. On a significant hill select a gear that keeps the speed below 25 kph. You can trick the 25 kph limit a bit by changing the wheel circumference in the settings. I have changed mine so that I actually hit the limit when I am actually going about 26 to 27 kph.

PeterSD70 wrote:If I was going to guess, I would think that Bionx will do more business partnering with bike manufacturers to provide a complete system rather than conversion kits. That or drop their distributer model or offer lower prices.

Bionx does partner with bike manufacturers already. For example Trek has an bionx powered electric bike, I saw one here in Newcastle a few months back. There are quite a number of other bike manufacturers listed on their web site. Prices will probably drop when economies of scale kick in, the problem is that early adopters of advanced technology end up paying a hell of a lot more.

I am tossing up getting into the pedelec game in the hope that it will make my 25km commute a more regular occurrence. Currently my 12 hour days plus the commute don't often make it appealing, especially when I know the wind will be blowing the wrong way on the way home.

My question relates to whether a conversion is worth the cost: Bionx kits can cost up to $2000.00, an eZee kit from $1500.00. But I can buy a new electric bike for not much more than this and in some cases much less.

So what's the benefit? I kind of like my beaten up old $500 clunker: it has a dyno-generator on the front, good lights, strong (albeit slow) wheels, a good Tubus rack, great Brooks seat. But...what direction should I go?

Thanks in advance.

I just converted my ~2003 mountain bike to an electric assist using the Solarbike 200W kit. I paid $1300 for the kit and installation (I'm not very handy sometimes so wanted them to do it!). The guy at my local store did offer for $1600 total he could put the kit on a flat bar roadie he had on sale for $600 on its own, if I wanted outright speed for commuting. I opted to save the $300 and go with my trusty mountain bike as I prefer the wider (smooth treaded) tyres for the soft sand around my suburb, and for hopping up and down kerbs to cross roads etc. I can really feel the original hub on my MTB back wheel being the slow point, but for all that I cut almost 15 minutes off what used to take me 45-50 minutes (I am piss weak hahaha) so it's still a massive boost.

When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

Well, have done about 1500km so far and am very happy with the Bionx. I had a battery blow up on me after about 400km. This somehow fried the controller and motor. Or it was the motor that blew up and did the battery. Anyway, the store I bought the kit was great and replaced everything - great customer service. They were not sure what went wrong. Evidently Bionx didn't know either, so the whole kit went back to Canada to be taken apart. Most likely a 20c piece somewhere. One other problem was caused by me fiddling with the magnet on the brake lever. I popped it off at a set of lights. The Bionx went straight into regen mode as I tried to ride off when the lights went green. Like riding with an anchor. Had to switch it off for the last 15km. Some new glue from the engineering shop and no problems. Bottom line? don't fiddle with the magnet.

Since then, no problems. Ironically, I have now lost 15kg and am using the motor a lot less. My 50km return commute will see me using slightly less than half the battery's charge vice the 2/3 I was using at my heaviest. I am also back on the road bike and have put another 5-600 km on that over the summer. Am trying to ride to work twice a week (didn't do much over four weeks at the height of summer). The Bionx is mostly seamless - there is only that point at around 25kmph that I notice and wrote about before.

I'm really happy with it. It's got me moving, I've lost weight and feel healthier. While I still feel a little uncomfortable about the price, I'm really happy with my purchase - it's a great system and a pleasure to ride with. I don't feel that I got ripped off mind you. It cost what it cost and while I was happy to pay the price it was difficult to "see" the value out of the box. I've had a great experience with the shop that sold it to me, a great experience with the shop when it broke and I love riding it. Happy.

One suggestion for those doing conversions. Remember that the battery is heavy so make certain that it well supported and preferably low and central. My original Chinese aluminium carrier was nothing but trouble but my new stainless steel tubus carrier seems far better plus it has allowed me to get the batteries lower so the bike's centre of gravity is improved.

It would not be at all strange if history came to the conclusion that the perfection of the bicycle was the greatest achievement of the nineteenth century.

With something like a BionX PL350 HT RR L are these easily installed and removed? I am tossing around some ideas and one of those is fitting it to my Surly Long Haul Trucker. However I also use this as my touring bike and for touring would want to be able to remove the BionX. Realistic idea?

Another option I have is fitting a kit to my Bacchetta Giro ATT 20 which can take a rack. Anyone tried this by any chance?

Third option is my converting my carbon Look 555 which does not get ridden and was/is going to go on the market.

The Bionx PL 350 HT RR L has to be installed by an authorized Bionx dealer for warranty purposes. Once it is installed it is quite simple to remove the wheel and battery. The supplied rack is pretty good quality, the one downside is that because of the battery slot the top of the rack sits high compared to a normal rack although panniers are carried low. I would suggest that the best option when touring would be to just remove the the battery and wheel whilst retaining the rack and cabling. All you would then have to do is protect the unused plugs and connectors. It may be worthwhile having a look at a rack at a dealer if possible to see if it would be suitable for you when touring.

thamete wrote:The Bionx PL 350 HT RR L has to be installed by an authorized Bionx dealer for warranty purposes.

That may be an issue as I am in WA and not sure if they have any dealers here.

Once it is installed it is quite simple to remove the wheel and battery.

Cool. I have been throwing options around all day and looking at bikes and I must admit I have swung back to the idea of actually fitting a kit to my LoGo P-38 (which I hadn't considered at first) as being the cheapest option whilst allowing me to ride my recumbent and keeping hte number of bikes down to a minimum. Being able to remove the wheel and battery appeals for my none commute riding.

It may come down to a BH Emotion Neo Cross (second hand) versus a kit for the LoGo. Anyway I am off the bike for another three weeks so plenty of time to give this some thought.