Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan. Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.

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Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know? (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour. --Nikolai Lenin

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan.

So God needs murder to save people. And Satan was instrumental in getting this to work at least in one gospel (funny how they don’t agree)

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Luke 22: 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

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Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.

Satan works with god constantly through the bible if one is to believe it. We have Satan necessary for the fall, and evidently god wanted that to happen since he did nothing to stop it, like, oh, keeping the snake out which would have done nothing to any supposed “free will”. Satan is making bets with Job. Satan is required to have JC betrayed, if not willingly sacrificed (which seems not since damning someone for doing what you want seems rather unfair, and gee, God isn’t unfair is he? ) And in Revelation, God and satan are together again in one more buddy movie getting more people corrupted and killed.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

In a couple theatrical version Judas figures Jesus does it hoping that it will provoke Jesus to ditch render-unto-Caesar-the-other-cheek bit and just use his full power to waste the Romans.

I forget the details but in Jesus Christ Superstar Judas figures Jesus knows about it and somehow he's just playing along. In guilt and grief the actor puts a noose around his neck and wails the opening line to Mary Magdalene's love song, "I don't even know how to love Him" and steps off a ladder or rock.

Later on the soul of Judas reappears (sometimes surrounded by dancing angels) and mocks Jesus that he should have waiting until there was electronic media if he wanted to convert the world to a new message.

I saw footage of a Mexican production where the actor, of course, has a harness with a hook behind his neck. The noose was not a slip knot. The actor had done the stunt in many performances. But he made a mistake and the rope somehow didn't get hooked. Then he stepped off. Of course the audience thought they were seeing the performance of a man looking like he was strangling but fortunately the cast or crew realized what had happened and got the unconscious man down in time.

I once heard someone's report on the Bhagavad Gita. (I haven't read the book.)

Arjuna has doubts about a war he is going to fight and is advised by his charioteer, Krishna. Krishna is just a low class enlisted man but somehow -- I don't know what it is about him -- he seems so wise.

Finally Krishna reveals that he is God incarnate (again) and shows Arjuna the supernatural. He shows him a vision of Heaven and Arjuna is amazed to see a dead warrior -- some distant relative -- in Heaven partying with the gods. WTF???? I mean that guy was a selfish jerk. Ah, explains Krishna, he was a born nobleman. More WTF? Krishna explains that noblemen are selfish jerks. They were born that way[1]. That's part of their job assigned to them. The dead warrior was so good at being a selfish jerk that he was deserving of reward.

Interestingly, I think the Christians are trying to turn Judas into a bit of a martyr with the uncovered Gospel of Judas. It apparently says something along the lines of Judas was acting on Jesus' orders to fulfill Jesus' faith. Seems a lot like why Snape killed Dumbledore now that I typed it! I definitely prefer the latter fiction to the former!

When you look at it this way, the Judas character is the one who performed a sacrifice. Calling what Jesus did a sacrifice is an insult to Judas. Judas selflessly died and went to hell so Christians could have their salvation.

Judas is supposedly suffering eternally for giving Christians what they want most.

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan.

So God needs murder to save people. And Satan was instrumental in getting this to work at least in one gospel (funny how they don’t agree)

Quote

Luke 22: 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

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Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.

Satan works with god constantly through the bible if one is to believe it. We have Satan necessary for the fall, and evidently god wanted that to happen since he did nothing to stop it, like, oh, keeping the snake out which would have done nothing to any supposed “free will”. Satan is making bets with Job. Satan is required to have JC betrayed, if not willingly sacrificed (which seems not since damning someone for doing what you want seems rather unfair, and gee, God isn’t unfair is he? ) And in Revelation, God and satan are together again in one more buddy movie getting more people corrupted and killed.

Satan works with God,his right hand man you might say, Hmmmmmm must be why God is reluctant to put him(Satan) in hell. God remembers the good times with his BFF Satan and can't be bothered to lock him up.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

When you look at it this way, the Judas character is the one who performed a sacrifice. Calling what Jesus did a sacrifice is an insult to Judas. Judas selflessly died and went to hell so Christians could have their salvation.

Judas is supposedly suffering eternally for giving Christians what they want most.

That's just fucked up.

Was there even a hell before this? Hell is a totally Christian invention isn't it?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?

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"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?

Indeed, submitting voluntarily, rather than being discovered because of "betrayal", would seem to fit the whole "sacrifice" notion a little better. I really see no need for betrayal in order for this to work. Perhaps Judas should talk to Occam about a shave.

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?

What made it so hard to catch him in the first place?

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?

What made it so hard to catch him in the first place?

Well, Jesus is slippery and flops around a lot, like a fish out of water. Not easy to catch.

If there was any historicity in the story at all, it was probably a story morph from Jesus and Judas having a gay lover's spat. Wasn't there some kissing involved? The betrayal was probably just a forcing out of the closet. Maybe Jesus wasn't crucified, maybe he was just hung...

But isn't the bigger question "was Judas a '"true Christian,"'TM?" If he really believed then he wouldn't have killed himself, he would have prayed about it and Jebus would have told him it's ok that it's part of the plan. If he was never a true christian, how did he ever become an apostle?

Jesus was not trying to create "Christianity" as we know it today. Assuming Jesus was actually real, he was simply telling people that the kingdom of God was coming. The rest is fabrication at the highest levels, in order to prop up a new religion that wasn't Jewish and didn't require the OT to be followed to the letter.

LOL! I'm going to take this silly premise and run with it (that's how religion works anyways, so what the hell?). Let's see what happens.

There was a man named Judas. He lived in the time of the man called Jesus Christ, and traveled in his company. Judas was in fact a very well endowed individual in the penile region. He becomes attracted to the prostitute that follows Jesus around too. Judas has some spare money, so he has intercourse with Mary Magdalene (she is a prostitute after all, and knows a good ride when she sees one) and Judas ends up falling in love with her.

But MM is more impressed with Jesus, who, because of his alleged divine powers, is "necessarily" awesome in the sack. This makes Judas jealous. MM continues to follow Jesus around, even washing his feet, so slavish is her devotion. Judas gets really tired of seeing his buddy with his concubine, and decides to get back at him by turning him into the Roman authorities.

Jesus, who is still basically a decent guy, feels bad, and realizes his error in snubbing his buddy. He also remembers saying that one of his disciples would betray him and realizes maybe Judas saw this as license to betray him out of spite, in order to fulfill Jesus' words. Jesus, being Jesus, forgives Judas, and admits that he was wrong for boinking his woman, and should have anticipated Judas jealousy and anger.

Judas then watches as Jesus is led away. Judas knows what is coming for JC. He knows that he will be executed using the painful method of crucifixion, all because Judas turned him in. Judas realizes that his vengeance was overkill, and curses himself for his lack of emotional control. He knows that the wheels of death are turning towards JC, and nothing can stop them now. All he has to show for it is a sack of money. Meanwhile, Mary Magdalene is disgusted with Judas and doesn't want to have anything to do with him. Judas has now guaranteed that his love will never be fulfilled.

Judas, overcome with grief and shame at having turned his buddy in to be killed, and filled with sorrow for losing his true love forever, realizes that he has totally screwed up everything he loves. He is filled with despair and self loathing.

Then once he cools down a bit he starts thinking: what was Jesus doing having sex with a prostitute? Why would Jesus admit that he was wrong, if he was truly divine? How was he not able to anticipate my reaction? Thinking about this brings up other memories. How can God be love, if Jesus said that the way to God was to hate everyone? Judas thinks back to a lot of the things Jesus said, and sees that there are lots of things that contradict each other. Judas also wonders why Jesus is Ok with slavery and misogyny.

Judas begins to realize that he has been scammed. This Jesus guy wasn't the son of God, or of any god. He sees that Jesus was a con artist. He was just duping people to get a bunch of groupies. What's worse, it worked. There are already a small but dedicated group of individuals committed to spreading this lie. Filled with anger, Judas begins drinking to try to block out all of this insanity. He drinks until he falls asleep. Judas has a dream of the future legions of Jesus followers, and the rabid violence that they bring to all of the world. He sees whole civilizations cut down, man woman and child, in order to spread the "love" of Jesus. He sees cultures destroyed in order to bring Jesus' "salvation". He sees gays and black people being dragged behind trucks in Alabama while their still living bodies are battered and torn apart, all because such "people" are an offense to Jesus. He sees JC being resurrected, nearly 2000 years later, as some guy named "Bernie Madoff", whoever that is. This Bernie Madoff convinces people of false claims in order to take serious advantage of them.

Judas then wakes up, and realizes that this Bernie Madoff character in his dream is a lot like Jesus. Judas is thoroughly disgusted with Jesus, himself, the Apostles, Mary Magdalene, and the future of the world, all because his jealous actions led Jesus' silly prophecies to be fulfilled, strengthening the faith of those who believe, and setting the ground work for a religion that is a lie and will bring great evil to the world. Filled with self loathing and despair, Judas kills himself after going to an unmovable mountain by handling venomous snakes after drinking a vial of poison (as a final "Kiss my ass" to Jesus).

All because Judas was hung like the donkey that Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

The Gospel, according to Kaz.

(Note to theists: This contains as much truth(and speculation) as any of the Gospels, and is just as verifiable and reliable of a source regarding Jesus' life as Matthew, Mark, John or Luke, or any of Paul's old mail. It is also no more offensive than the Bible, which would have us believe things that are just as imagination based and full of violence and rape (and foreskins) as this is. Actually, my Gospel doesn't even contain rape or foreskins, so it is arguably LESS offensive than the Bible.)

probably not. That is a misogynestic interpretation of chauvenistic old church bigwigs. There was a prostitute named mary, but it was not necessarily magdalene.

Perhaps this is correct. I am merely expanding on what I was taught in church. And after all, it's all just a myth isn't it? I agree that it is misogynistic, but that tells us a lot about the motives of those perpetuate these myths for their own power. Why should it be surprising though that chauvinistic old church bigwigs would merely follow in the misogynistic foot steps of previous religious bigwigs?

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan. Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.

That's why I've wondered why all the crying and moaning over Jesus's sacrifice of just having a crappy three day weekend for your sins, when Judas actually made the real sacrifice, an eternity of torture. Dying and coming back isn't a sacrifice.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I see, It was just God’s foreknowledge, not his will.Judas could have changed his choice.So God did not so love the world that he gave his only begotten son,He merely knew in advance that Judas was going to get him killed.

That foreknowledge crap has as many holes in it as does free will.

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The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard