Well if people were projecting Clay to be as good as he turned out to be, he would have been a Top 3-5 pick.

I don't think I made my point clear. However, Calubflower has been doing a good job thus far. The first part was sarcasm, the second part is what I believe. Jarvis Jones is a tremendous college player because of his motor and knack for making a big play. However, that just won't cut it in the NFL. Jones isn't very big and disengage very well. So whenever a NFL tackle gets his hands on Jones it'll be over. He does have upside and ability, but people are making him out to be this great can't miss prospect which he really isn't. Heck, most of his big plays aren't because he's dominating his opponent, it's because someone else is funneling the play his way or because his motor is non stop. I definitely think that Jones is a first round player, but he's not a top ten pick imo. He should be drafted in the same region as CMIII, not any higher than that.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElectricEye

I'm a whiny little kunt. Feel sorry for me as I go masturbate to a picture of my mom dressed as a teletubby.

Lets hold it against him that he leads college football's best conference in sacks. He is clearly Willie Evans part 2.

I don't think it's a case of holding it against him, however it is not as simple to say he leads the SEC in sacks, therefore he is the best pass rusher

In the NFL, there are currently 8 starting OTs who came from the SEC. 4 of them reside in the same division (AFC North) which has been for a long time considered the most run orientated division in the NFL.

The SEC is the best overall division. That doesn't mean they have the best players at every single position. The reason the SEC is so good is because teams like Alabama, LSU, Florida, Georgis, SC etc are so deep at multiple positions. They don't all have the best players at their position though

I am not saying the fact that he is in the SEC makes him the best pass rusher, I'm saying the guy is a force and makes game changing plays in big games. He isn't a pure speed rusher but that doesn't mean he isn't going to be an impact defender in the NFL. He gets as much attention on him as any front 7 guy in the conference and is probably the most feared defender and he still puts up crazy numbers while doing a lot more than just sacking the QB.

In this case I wouldn't use the SEC level of competition arguement at all, but you do have to factor in that it is not a wide open passing conference so he has significantly less opportunities to rush the passer than he would in say the Big 12. When opponents do drop back to pass against Georgia, who do you think they are accounting for the most?

I am not saying the fact that he is in the SEC makes him the best pass rusher, I'm saying the guy is a force and makes game changing plays in big games. He isn't a pure speed rusher but that doesn't mean he isn't going to be an impact defender in the NFL. He gets as much attention on him as any front 7 guy in the conference and is probably the most feared defender and he still puts up crazy numbers while doing a lot more than just sacking the QB.

In this case I wouldn't use the SEC level of competition arguement at all, but you do have to factor in that it is not a wide open passing conference so he has significantly less opportunities to rush the passer than he would in say the Big 12. When opponents do drop back to pass against Georgia, who do you think they are accounting for the most?

I 100% agree with what you are saying. I stated earlier I hate the arguement of what conference they play in because that makes people have a preconceived notion of the player before they have watched him.

Produced in the best conference??? Must be great!!! That's not true, especially when it comes to evaluating players for the NFL

I think Jones is going to be a top player, but not because he performed against SEC competition. With the way the NFL has shifted towards passing you can't have enough players like Jones who can rush the passer while also drop in coverage

I don't think Jones is quite as fast or quite the athlete that Von Miller is, but he's not far from it either. He makes up for it with his playmaking ability and run defense.

The significance of his "stats" which the SEC haters try to dismiss, is the fact that he didn't even play against Kentucky or FAU. He has 8.5 sacks and 14 TFL's and has only played in 6 games.

In addition, he's also had 9 QB hurries, 5 forced fumbles and about 2 inches from a pick-six. He single handedly dominated Missouri and changed the entire momentum of that game in Georgia's favor several times, and Elvis Fisher is a pretty good tackle (left with an injury).

Jordan Reed was going in for the TD last week that would've put them back in the game.... Jarvis Jones caught him from behind and forced the fumble into the endzone. He makes plays when they count.

As for Mingo, this guy is more hype than substance at this point. Until he finally got a sack against Towson this year he hadn't sacked a QB since the Arkansas game last year (a 6 game stretch). Completely invisible against Bama in both games last year, and got his ass physically handed to him by Barrett Jones in the national title game.

One of the very first things on the list of a coach's game plan to successfully dominate LSU is...

1. Run the football right at Kiki Mingo

This is what Saban and Will Muschamp know.

Mingo is simply too fast and athletic to leave unblocked on zone read plays, which is why he dominates the stat sheet in games against these type offenses (Oregon, Auburn last year, etc.)

But against physical downhill schemes where he's accounted for and blocked every play, he's virtually invisible. Teams have figured this out and it's why Mingo has no production this year.

It's why he's been relegated to a situational player since the beginning of the season with Lavar Edwards as the starter, who is outproducing Mingo.

I know that as a Bama guy, a potential matchup with Jarvis Jones in the SEC title game worries me a lot more than Mingo does. I already know exactly what we'll do with Mingo....

He reminds me of Suggs more than anyone, TBH. Strong, heavy hands and he converts speed to power very well through his hips.

In regards to the "SEC DOMINANCEZZZZZZZ," if you look, a lot of his production outside of the UF games come against complete stiffs at offensive tackle.

Analyze traits plz.

I think Suggs is a lot more violent as a rusher than Jones is.

As for Jones the prospect without comparisons, I would like to see a more varied pass rush from him. As you mention he played against some bad competition which increased his stats. Against Missouri for example, the RT literally couldn't get a hand on him based on his speed. Jones didn't do anything flashy or overly impressive, he just ran past the guy. That's the kind of thing that doesn't happen in the NFL.

As for Jones the prospect without comparisons, I would like to see a more varied pass rush from him. As you mention he played against some bad competition which increased his stats. Against Missouri for example, the RT literally couldn't get a hand on him based on his speed. Jones didn't do anything flashy or overly impressive, he just ran past the guy. That's the kind of thing that doesn't happen in the NFL.

He is now, (and I may be mis-remembering ASU Suggs) but I think the physicality part of his game has really grown as he's been in the NFL, and I kinda expect the same with Jones. Even if I don't have anything definitive to root that belief in.

agreed. but then, i don't like any of the arguments people try to use in a vacuum. 'cam newton is a really great qb because he played well in the sec' alone is worthless. 'cam newton is a really great qb because of traits x, y, and z, and further because he proved those traits against the best defenses in college football' is relevant and useful. 'jarvis jones is von miller because he plays against mediocre SEC offenses and has stats' is worthless. 'jarvis jones is a great prospect because he does x, y and z effectively, and has done them against good talent' is useful. unfortunately, only one of those is being pushed in this thread.

i don't get why this happens every single year. people want to spend every minute fellating some player because of the conference he played in, or because of one statistic (how's that going, amerson-as-a-cb fans?) and they end up making pathetic arguments for that player. it's not hard to spend 5 minutes watching tape on a guy to see what he fundamentally does well and what will or won't translate to the next level. and if you're not capable of doing it, there's sure as **** someone here who is.

Dude you probably have never watched one coaches cut of any player in your life. TV scouting doesn't count. If you had any sort of real knowledge about the scouting process you would understand that half of the dudes that become bust are strictly based on character issues rather than skill set.

I can guarantee you that Jarvis Jones has been the best football player on the field his whole life beginning with midgets. Maybe you should take your ass of the couch and actually get around football players and find out what they say about competing against one another.

I bet you every single O Coordinator and opponent that went against Jarvis Jones wouldn't dare utter the nonsense that is coming out of your posts. You can over evaluate Jones as much as you want, but at the end of the day he's a hell of a football player and he's done nothing but prove that over his college career and also showed perseverance by fighting through a neck injury.

If you don't know why people have so much respect for the SEC then your just plain ignorant or stupid. It's hand down the most talented conference. It just seems like you are one of those guys that wants to prove you know about football, but honestly it's not a very complicated game to evaluate. Let's not make it more difficult than it is. Your not a football genius.

We can argue over Jarvis Jones all we want, but at the end of the day he'll be a top 10 draft pick and u'll probably be still looking for reasons to say why him dominating college football doesn't mean anything.

So keep finding every guys that was a bust out of the SEC and I won't even embarrass you and name every guy from the SEC that became a stud. Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers don't

I hate the arguement saying they played in the SEC against NFL talent and produced, thus they are the best prospects. It's just not true. It may make it an easier evaluation but it doesn't automatically make that prospect great.

If you look through the draft from even 2005 and pick the best players from each draft you don't get an awful lot of SEC players. That is not to say that playing in the SEC is a bad thing, but it is clear that playing in the SEC does not gaurantee you are a better prospect than someone who plays in the big East, or ACC, or the WAC or anything.

Some of the best players to come out in the draft in the last 7 or 8 years came from

You can't evaluate someone just based on the competition they play against. It helps to be able to see AJ Green go against Patrick Peterson but that's not the end of the evaluation

What the hell are you talking about dude....

SEC players are typically the only one's capable of coming into the NFL on a regular basis and physically dominating NFL players immediately.... Cam Newton, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Patrick Peterson, etc. Although I'd probably make a case for J.J. Watt.

Mark Barron and Trent Richardson already physically dominate NFL players just like they did college players.

This 2005 nonsense you're talking doesn't even make sense, and we can go back a lot further than 2005. But we'll use 2005 just for the sake of conversation...

In 2005, 3 of the top 8 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players (Cadillac Williams, Ronnie Brown, Odell Thurman). The others were Heath Miller, Logan Mankins, Shawn Merriman, Lofa Tatupu, and DeMarcus Ware.

In 2006, 4 of the top 11 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players. Not only that, but DeMeco Ryans won DROY, and his Bama teammate Mark Anderson finished 2nd in DROY.

In 2007, Patrick Willis won DROY.

In 2008, Jerod Mayo won DROY.

In 2009, 4 of the top 5 for Offensive Rookie of the Year were all SEC players...Percy Harvin, Michael Oher, Knowshon Moreno, and Mike Wallace.

You can continue going back even further than 2005 to the beginning of the decade with SEC Rookie of the Year with guys like Michael Clayton, Kendrell Bell, and Domanick Davis who's careers were simply derailed by injuries.

SEC players are typically the only one's capable of coming into the NFL on a regular basis and physically dominating NFL players immediately.... Cam Newton, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Patrick Peterson, etc. Although I'd probably make a case for J.J. Watt.

Mark Barron and Trent Richardson already physically dominate NFL players just like they did college players.

This 2005 nonsense you're talking doesn't even make sense, and we can go back a lot further than 2005. But we'll use 2005 just for the sake of conversation...

In 2005, 3 of the top 8 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players (Cadillac Williams, Ronnie Brown, Odell Thurman). The others were Heath Miller, Logan Mankins, Shawn Merriman, Lofa Tatupu, and DeMarcus Ware.

In 2006, 4 of the top 11 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players. Not only that, but DeMeco Ryan won DROY, and his Bama teammate Mark Anderson finished 2nd in DROY.

In 2007, Patrick Willis won DROY.

In 2008, Jerod Mayo won DROY.

In 2009, 4 of the top 5 for Offensive Rookie of the Year were all SEC players...Percy Harvin, Michael Oher, Knowshon Moreno, and Mike Wallace.

You can continue going back even further than 2005 to the beginning of the decade with SEC Rookie of the Year with guys like Michael Clayton, Kendrell Bell, and Domanick Davis who's careers were simply derailed by injuries.

SEC players dominate son.

Thank you and the crazy thing is the SEC is getting better talent than they ever had based on the coaches in the conference now. Go talk to a NFL scout and ask them what conference the department allocates most of there resources to. It's not even comparable.

As for Jones the prospect without comparisons, I would like to see a more varied pass rush from him. As you mention he played against some bad competition which increased his stats. Against Missouri for example, the RT literally couldn't get a hand on him based on his speed. Jones didn't do anything flashy or overly impressive, he just ran past the guy. That's the kind of thing that doesn't happen in the NFL.

SEC players are typically the only one's capable of coming into the NFL on a regular basis and physically dominating NFL players immediately.... Cam Newton, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Patrick Peterson, etc. Although I'd probably make a case for J.J. Watt.

Mark Barron and Trent Richardson already physically dominate NFL players just like they did college players.

This 2005 nonsense you're talking doesn't even make sense, and we can go back a lot further than 2005. But we'll use 2005 just for the sake of conversation...

In 2005, 3 of the top 8 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players (Cadillac Williams, Ronnie Brown, Odell Thurman). The others were Heath Miller, Logan Mankins, Shawn Merriman, Lofa Tatupu, and DeMarcus Ware.

In 2006, 4 of the top 11 for Rookie of the Year were SEC players. Not only that, but DeMeco Ryans won DROY, and his Bama teammate Mark Anderson finished 2nd in DROY.

In 2007, Patrick Willis won DROY.

In 2008, Jerod Mayo won DROY.

In 2009, 4 of the top 5 for Offensive Rookie of the Year were all SEC players...Percy Harvin, Michael Oher, Knowshon Moreno, and Mike Wallace.

You can continue going back even further than 2005 to the beginning of the decade with SEC Rookie of the Year with guys like Michael Clayton, Kendrell Bell, and Domanick Davis who's careers were simply derailed by injuries.

SEC players dominate son.

Yes because having a good rookie year means you are a great NFL player. How many of the 3 you named from 2005 went on to have great or even very good NFL careers? And I only went to 2005 because I didn't really care to look further, but the same things is applicable no matter how far you look. The SEC doesn't dominate the talent pool in the NFL.

You mention Knowshon Moreno as an example of someone having a good rookie year. How's that looking now???

Through all those years that I mentioned until now, the only players (throughout their careers) from the SEC who can realistically say they were one f the two or three best from their draft class are AJ Green, Matthew Stafford, Percy Harvin and maybe Patrick Willis (Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson, Revis etc from that year).

How about we look past just their rookie year. Pretty sure Vince Young was rookie of the year a few years back. How's that going?

You could possibly argue based on what you are saying that SEC players are more NFL ready, however that doesn't make them better prospects.

As I mentioned, the SEC is the best conference because it has the best collection of talent. It doesn't necessarily have the best player(s) in college football, however from top to bottom of each roster they are better than any other conference.

I think the moral of the story is that college sack totals are kind of meaningless. Sometimes a decent pass rusher will just dominate a terrible OL. Sometimes a player won't get the opportunities in college that he did in the pros. Sometimes a player is asked to play in a scheme that doesn't fit his talents very well which hurts production, and sometimes a player lands in a situation that is perfect for him.

So I don't think just looking at cumulative college numbers is indicative of anything. Watch individual matchups of good pass rusher vs. good OT if you want to learn anything, just don't credit a guy overmuch because he got 4 sacks in a game against a FCS opponent lined up across from a guy who will be selling insurance next year.

I think the moral of the story is that college sack totals are kind of meaningless. Sometimes a decent pass rusher will just dominate a terrible OL. Sometimes a player won't get the opportunities in college that he did in the pros. Sometimes a player is asked to play in a scheme that doesn't fit his talents very well which hurts production, and sometimes a player lands in a situation that is perfect for him.

So I don't think just looking at cumulative college numbers is indicative of anything. Watch individual matchups of good pass rusher vs. good OT if you want to learn anything, just don't credit a guy overmuch because he got 4 sacks in a game against a FCS opponent lined up across from a guy who will be selling insurance next year.

I agree with this, but let's not lump him in with a bunch of guys who didn't do **** after college just because he has been prodcutive. Would he be a better prospect if he had less sacks? I understand that college success doesn't translate to NFL success but just because he is racking up numbers in college doesn't mean he is going to be Dan Bazuin in the NFL.

it's not hard to spend 5 minutes watching tape on a guy to see what he fundamentally does well and what will or won't translate to the next level.

You really don't have to watch hours and hours of tape to see how a prospect basically plays. It's kind of surprising how some people seem to think a player's abilities slowly become evident through watching more and more film, and then figure they might as well just look at stats and highlight reels and take the opinion of bloggers, who've probably spent 5 minutes watching some of the players they're writing about. That route might take more time. I mean, if you want to post an opinion of a player just watch a 7-minute every-snap video against a top opponent on Youtube instead of a highlight reel. It's just not hard to find anymore.

blah blah credentials blah i'm not in junior high blah blah still can't actually post anything about how he actually plays blah blah guarantee a bunch of utter **** without any citation or back up blah blah.

cool story, bro. care to cite any specific nonsense, or anyplace i've ever suggested i don't think he's a good player? your arguments are garbage. nothing you've said so far is a valid argument for jones. period. stats and crying about the sec is idiotic. notice how no one else is doing it? of course you don't. because you don't actually have any idea how scouting works. you saw a couple of good plays on saturday, heard the announcers mention some numbers, and decided the guy was incredible. pointing at numbers is worthless discussion. talking about how he plays is not. you've done one and completely failed to do the other. the fact that you simply want to attack me says enough.

Production and competing against top competition isn't valid? Your a clown. The dude has separated himself more than anyone you can name in College Football and your saying I have no valid arguments. Your not making any sense. Not only can I forget more about the scouting process than you could ever know, but I'm so good that I made a scouting report for you. It says your a fat couch potato that probably never played the game.

Dudes like you try to prove how much you know about football when trying to grade a guy out. How about this. Go asked every talent evaluator in the country about Jarvis Jones and they'll tell you he's a top 5 pick. Then toss on the tape and watch him perform at a higher level than anyone else on the field. Only thing stopping Jarvis Jones from being a big time player is any sort of medical or character issues or if he's not in a defense that puts him in positon to make big plays. When a guy continuously makes big plays like TFL's, Sacks, INT's it means they have a knack for the football. Certain stats indicate what kind of player a guy has the potential to be. If I was naming tackles and stats like that I could respect you stance on this ( Manti Te'o).

Like I said on my previous post. Scouting isn't rocket science particularly when your talking about guys that lead the country in relevant statistics. I'll take Jones over any guy you can name and I'll break it down in a scouting report for you. A REAL scouting report. I see your the Discussion Board HERO and probably think your God's gift to draftniks, but as far as i'm concerned your grade in evaluating talent is a undrafted free agent that has little chance to make the team.

Production and competing against top competition isn't valid? Your a clown. The dude has separated himself more than anyone you can name in College Football and your saying I have no valid arguments. Your not making any sense. Not only can I forget more about the scouting process than you could ever know, but I'm so good that I made a scouting report for you. It says your a fat couch potato that probably never played the game.

Dudes like you try to prove how much you know about football when trying to grade a guy out. How about this. Go asked every talent evaluator in the country about Jarvis Jones and they'll tell you he's a top 5 pick. Then toss on the tape and watch him perform at a higher level than anyone else on the field. Only thing stopping Jarvis Jones from being a big time player is any sort of medical or character issues or if he's not in a defense that puts him in positon to make big plays. When a guy continuously makes big plays like TFL's, Sacks, INT's it means they have a knack for the football. Certain stats indicate what kind of player a guy has the potential to be. If I was naming tackles and stats like that I could respect you stance on this ( Manti Te'o).

Like I said on my previous post. Scouting isn't rocket science particularly when your talking about guys that lead the country in relevant statistics. I'll take Jones over any guy you can name and I'll break it down in a scouting report for you. A REAL scouting report. I see your the Discussion Board HERO and probably think your God's gift to draftniks, but as far as i'm concerned your grade in evaluating talent is a undrafted free agent that has little chance to make the team.

I see you are a little upset with njx9's comments and you are lashing out. However, a little off topic I know, but in future could you please say you're instead of your when meaning you are??? Thanks in advance.

Now back to the lovely little post you made, could you please tell me how Jarvis Jones is this all world prospect without bringing up his competition? I'm not saying I disagree that he is but I would like to know why you believe it so much.

Tell me what he does well. Tell me what he needs to improve on. Tell me in what situation you think he will thrive in in the NFL and in what situation he will be disadvantaged.

If this is too tough for you to do maybe you can speak to one of the NFL scouts and decision makers you seem to know so well. Go on, just get Rex Ryan on speed dial and see what he thinks and then just write what he said.

Production and competing against top competition isn't valid? Your a clown. The dude has separated himself more than anyone you can name in College Football and your saying I have no valid arguments. Your not making any sense. Not only can I forget more about the scouting process than you could ever know, but I'm so good that I made a scouting report for you. It says your a fat couch potato that probably never played the game.

Dudes like you try to prove how much you know about football when trying to grade a guy out. How about this. Go asked every talent evaluator in the country about Jarvis Jones and they'll tell you he's a top 5 pick. Then toss on the tape and watch him perform at a higher level than anyone else on the field. Only thing stopping Jarvis Jones from being a big time player is any sort of medical or character issues or if he's not in a defense that puts him in positon to make big plays. When a guy continuously makes big plays like TFL's, Sacks, INT's it means they have a knack for the football. Certain stats indicate what kind of player a guy has the potential to be. If I was naming tackles and stats like that I could respect you stance on this ( Manti Te'o).

Like I said on my previous post. Scouting isn't rocket science particularly when your talking about guys that lead the country in relevant statistics. I'll take Jones over any guy you can name and I'll break it down in a scouting report for you. A REAL scouting report. I see your the Discussion Board HERO and probably think your God's gift to draftniks, but as far as i'm concerned your grade in evaluating talent is a undrafted free agent that has little chance to make the team.

Watch the video i just posted. He doesn't stand out in that game, he was washed out by the LT on run plays. He did a nice job holding the edge a few times. And has a good bull rush on a few plays, but never seemed to finish.

I see you are a little upset with njx9's comments and you are lashing out. However, a little off topic I know, but in future could you please say you're instead of your when meaning you are??? Thanks in advance.

Now back to the lovely little post you made, could you please tell me how Jarvis Jones is this all world prospect without bringing up his competition? I'm not saying I disagree that he is but I would like to know why you believe it so much.

Tell me what he does well. Tell me what he needs to improve on. Tell me in what situation you think he will thrive in in the NFL and in what situation he will be disadvantaged.

If this is too tough for you to do maybe you can speak to one of the NFL scouts and decision makers you seem to know so well. Go on, just get Rex Ryan on speed dial and see what he thinks and then just write what he said.

Thanks for the grammar lesson. Maybe your more suited to teach English rather than evaluate football players. Jarvis Jones from the little bit of tape I have seen essentially has all the tools. Not only can he rush the passer, he also can drop back in coverage and is a relentless tackler. If you check some of his stuff out he's strong enough to engage then shed and athletic enough to just flat out get around unathletic lineman. He has the size to play in both a 4-3 and 3-4 so that adds more value. If he wasn't playing for Georgia and clearly separated himself as the best player on a team that has damn near more NFL talent than every other school in the country I would understand why you continue to have me justify why he is a stud. The proof is in the pudding buddy. Oh yeah and lets do a brief character check and find out if he's soft. Left USC because they wouldn't let him play with a devastating neck injury. 3 years later is the best defensive player in College football. I bet Lane wished he didn't doubt his abilities like you.