He gets rather testy with a fellow Jedi Master when Ahoska is buried under rock demanding they keep searching. Even more so threatening the Jedi Master that she help him search for them.

Then in the middle of the Mandalorian arc he murders a traitor in cold blood with everyone shrugging it off as, "Oh Anakin."

Hell if I recall right he even argues about how Palpatine is such a glorious leader during the whole Zillo Beast finale, when the thing blows up in the Chancellor's face.

The hints are all over the place. Anakin was damaged goods that the Jedi lightly tolerated. Hell the last episode I saw had Ahsoka dealing with the exact same situation Anakin had with Padme's life in danger and goes through the exact same ropes he did with no Palpatine.

And yet, this is the same guy who sacrifices his own safety routinely for the benefit of others, proving himself to have the best qualities of heroes. We're shown over and over in the series that Anakin is a good man.

Any good man can fall, but not without reason. And we're simply not being shown any reasons for his fall in RotS. We're still left with the absurd idea that he was afraid for padme's safety because he had a dream. So far, Anakin has not done anything that other Jedi have not been willing to do.

Shit, Remember when Obi-Wan "disarmed" that rough muthafucka in the cantina to keep Luke from being shoved around? This nigga can control minds and do all sorts of telekinetic shit. But the best way he can stop a guy who's had too much to drink is by chopping his fuckin' arm off? Do you think that muthafucka survived that shit? Hell, in RotS, because of the "enlightened sensiblities" of the Jedi, Obi-Wan leaves a beaten Anakin to die a horrible, lingering painful death ON FUCKIN' FIRE, rather than do the merciful thing and put him out of his misery.

These guys are fighting a war. They're supposed to kill the enemy. Not just because that's what you do in a war. But rather because it denies the enemy the opportunity to kill more of your own soldiers, or to kill more of the civilians you're sworn to defend. If you can take the enemy prisoner, fine. IF.

For thousands of years, the Jedi have been the arbiters of law and justice in a galaxy where law and justice are scarce. Sometimes, that means it's up to a lone Jedi to drop an evil muthafucka where he stands.

If a Jedi ain't willing to make the hard decisions when he picks up his first lightsaber, he's bitch-hearted. And the fact in Star Wars is, most of the Jedi have been bitch-hearted at least as far back as the time of Revan. The Jedi have no solid moral footing to judge Anakin. he's a soldier fighting a war, killing the enemies of freedom. Jedi have done this for thousands of years. That's not reason enough for a turn to the Dark Side in five minutes.

Now, the death of Ahsoka? That could push him over the edge. And it's the one thing I've continually pointed to as the only possible thing that could. You know that, because you've seen me say so numerous times.

But the girl hasn't died. And she won't for the foreseeable future, because an ongoing series with her as one of the main characters is a cash cow for Lucas. So, unless the show comes to an end with Ahsoka dying, or with Anakin believing she's dead, they're going to keep trying to convince us that, out of all the Jedi killing the living holy shit out of their enemies in this war, Anakin is the only one who did anything bad.

He gets rather testy with a fellow Jedi Master when Ahoska is buried under rock demanding they keep searching. Even more so threatening the Jedi Master that she help him search for them.

Then in the middle of the Mandalorian arc he murders a traitor in cold blood with everyone shrugging it off as, "Oh Anakin."

Hell if I recall right he even argues about how Palpatine is such a glorious leader during the whole Zillo Beast finale, when the thing blows up in the Chancellor's face.

The hints are all over the place. Anakin was damaged goods that the Jedi lightly tolerated. Hell the last episode I saw had Ahsoka dealing with the exact same situation Anakin had with Padme's life in danger and goes through the exact same ropes he did with no Palpatine.

And yet, this is the same guy who sacrifices his own safety routinely for the benefit of others, proving himself to have the best qualities of heroes. We're shown over and over in the series that Anakin is a good man.

Any good man can fall, but not without reason. And we're simply not being shown any reasons for his fall in RotS. We're still left with the absurd idea that he was afraid for padme's safety because he had a dream. So far, Anakin has not done anything that other Jedi have not been willing to do.

Shit, Remember when Obi-Wan "disarmed" that rough muthafucka in the cantina to keep Luke from being shoved around? This nigga can control minds and do all sorts of telekinetic shit. But the best way he can stop a guy who's had too much to drink is by chopping his fuckin' arm off? Do you think that muthafucka survived that shit? Hell, in RotS, because of the "enlightened sensiblities" of the Jedi, Obi-Wan leaves a beaten Anakin to die a horrible, lingering painful death ON FUCKIN' FIRE, rather than do the merciful thing and put him out of his misery.

These guys are fighting a war. They're supposed to kill the enemy. Not just because that's what you do in a war. But rather because it denies the enemy the opportunity to kill more of your own soldiers, or to kill more of the civilians you're sworn to defend. If you can take the enemy prisoner, fine. IF.

For thousands of years, the Jedi have been the arbiters of law and justice in a galaxy where law and justice are scarce. Sometimes, that means it's up to a lone Jedi to drop an evil muthafucka where he stands.

If a Jedi ain't willing to make the hard decisions when he picks up his first lightsaber, he's bitch-hearted. And the fact in Star Wars is, most of the Jedi have been bitch-hearted at least as far back as the time of Revan. The Jedi have no solid moral footing to judge Anakin. he's a soldier fighting a war, killing the enemies of freedom. Jedi have done this for thousands of years. That's not reason enough for a turn to the Dark Side in five minutes.

Now, the death of Ahsoka? That could push him over the edge. And it's the one thing I've continually pointed to as the only possible thing that could. You know that, because you've seen me say so numerous times.

But the girl hasn't died. And she won't for the foreseeable future, because an ongoing series with her as one of the main characters is a cash cow for Lucas. So, unless the show comes to an end with Ahsoka dying, or with Anakin believing she's dead, they're going to keep trying to convince us that, out of all the Jedi killing the living holy shit out of their enemies in this war, Anakin is the only one who did anything bad.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Outhouse Editor

Of course he's sacrificing himself routinely for others. He made a promise that he try with all his effort to make sure nobody important in his life dies. That's his reason. He never wanted to loose anyone important in his life EVER again. He lost his mother and he blamed himself for not getting his lazy Jedi ass sooner to save her. Thus he had connections (Padme and Ahsoka) and what's the big philosophy of the Jedi Order? Don't have them or you'll be open to the temptation of the dark side of the force. Anakin didn't have just five minutes to be turned fully over. The moment he massacred all those Sand People he be tainted with the dark side of the force. The only two things keeping him afloat in the good side was Padme. All it would take would be one event to fully shatter his loyalty to the Jedi Order. And that's what Palpatine pulled off in RoTS.

From what we've seen in Clone Wars to RoTS, he believes in everything Palpatine was spilling out to him. Just look at the second Zillo Beast episode where he never was on his own wife's side and kept going straight into Palpatine's natural order. Again I feel this was an unwarranted attachment the Jedi Order should have squashed but they so paid for that folly.

Also you do realize that this show ain't gonna last ten seasons. The normal animated programing nowadays lasts four seasons at best with sixty four episodes in the can. After Season 3 this show will be almost to that point. However, given this show is as you say a cash cow, it will last more than that. But how long? Like hell is it going to last like Family Guy, Simpsons, or King of the Hill. There has to be a cut off point for the show.

Outhouse Editor

Of course he's sacrificing himself routinely for others. He made a promise that he try with all his effort to make sure nobody important in his life dies. That's his reason. He never wanted to loose anyone important in his life EVER again. He lost his mother and he blamed himself for not getting his lazy Jedi ass sooner to save her. Thus he had connections (Padme and Ahsoka) and what's the big philosophy of the Jedi Order? Don't have them or you'll be open to the temptation of the dark side of the force. Anakin didn't have just five minutes to be turned fully over. The moment he massacred all those Sand People he be tainted with the dark side of the force. The only two things keeping him afloat in the good side was Padme. All it would take would be one event to fully shatter his loyalty to the Jedi Order. And that's what Palpatine pulled off in RoTS.

From what we've seen in Clone Wars to RoTS, he believes in everything Palpatine was spilling out to him. Just look at the second Zillo Beast episode where he never was on his own wife's side and kept going straight into Palpatine's natural order. Again I feel this was an unwarranted attachment the Jedi Order should have squashed but they so paid for that folly.

Also you do realize that this show ain't gonna last ten seasons. The normal animated programing nowadays lasts four seasons at best with sixty four episodes in the can. After Season 3 this show will be almost to that point. However, given this show is as you say a cash cow, it will last more than that. But how long? Like hell is it going to last like Family Guy, Simpsons, or King of the Hill. There has to be a cut off point for the show.

sdsichero wrote:I especially like and admire Zechs. He's everything I wish I could be!

Rain Partier

Zechs wrote:Of course he's sacrificing himself routinely for others. He made a promise that he try with all his effort to make sure nobody important in his life dies. That's his reason. He never wanted to loose anyone important in his life EVER again. He lost his mother and he blamed himself for not getting his lazy Jedi ass sooner to save her. Thus he had connections (Padme and Ahsoka) and what's the big philosophy of the Jedi Order? Don't have them or you'll be open to the temptation of the dark side of the force. Anakin didn't have just five minutes to be turned fully over. The moment he massacred all those Sand People he be tainted with the dark side of the force. The only two things keeping him afloat in the good side was Padme. All it would take would be one event to fully shatter his loyalty to the Jedi Order. And that's what Palpatine pulled off in RoTS.

So, a bunch of clones also classify as the most important people in his life?

Come on. Anakin routinely puts himself at risk even for clones he doesn't know. He's a hero. The hero of the show in fact. And the reason for this is simple: you can't have some show aimed primarily at kids where a villain is the focal character. So, they give him heroic virtues.

The problem is, the more the portray him as a hero, the less-beleivable his fall to the Dark Side is.

Unless you're one of those kids I mentioned above.

With every virtuous thing he does, he moves further from the Dark Side, not closer to it. Nothing the show has done so far has shed any light on why Anakin would so suddenly turn to the Dark Side. And the reasons given in the movie were absurd.

And massacring Sand People is supposed to be an act of evil? The same guys who go out of their way to make unprovoked attacks on peaceful civilians? Seriously? There's some sort of moral ambiguity in...what? In killing the bad guys? They abducted and tortured his mother to death. The Tuskens aren't misunderstood people who would just rather live their lives in peace. They're fuckin' evil.

I could see him feeling guilty for killing the kids, sure. But at the same time, those little fuckfaces aren't gonna grow up to abduct and attack innocent farmers and shit in the future. Population of tatooine, feel free to thank Anakin at any time.

And if killing the bad guys is what forever taints Anakin, then every Jedi who's ever killed some evil being or creature is likewise forever tainted.

It's not the killing of these evil fucks that plagues Anakin. It's the fact that he did so out of anger and hatred. But even that doesn't make him unique. Obi-Wan did the same thing with Maul. Luke did the same thing when he whupped Vader. And hell, putting the Force Choke on that gammorean guard? Force Choke is a Dark Side technique, Zechs. It's no less evil to use than Force Lightning. So, is Luke forever tainted and fated to fall to the Dark Side as well? Obi-Wan?

In Expanded Universe, there's an entire history of Jedi killing and acting from anger who never fell. Look at Nomi Sunrider. Her career as a Jedi was born solely from anger and vengeance. She turned out pretty okay. Even Revan's crazy ass ended up just fine after doing far worse shit than Anakin ever did.

From what we've seen in Clone Wars to RoTS, he believes in everything Palpatine was spilling out to him. Just look at the second Zillo Beast episode where he never was on his own wife's side and kept going straight into Palpatine's natural order. Again I feel this was an unwarranted attachment the Jedi Order should have squashed but they so paid for that folly.

Palpatine has yet to reveal his true evil nature to Anakin. That means all the shit he's filling Anakin's head with is the virtues of democracy and order. There's nothing evil about believing in democracy and order. Anakin is devoted to palpatine because he and most everyone else in the Republic still have every reason to believe palpy is a good guy. Palpy doesn't even start telling Anakin any dark nefarious shit until RotS. And when he does, Anakin gets pissed the fuck off because he realizes Palpy is an evil Sith. In fact, Anakin wants to do the right thing and immediately bring Palpy to justice.

So that explanation doesn't ring true, Z.

Also you do realize that this show ain't gonna last ten seasons. The normal animated programing nowadays lasts four seasons at best with sixty four episodes in the can. After Season 3 this show will be almost to that point. However, given this show is as you say a cash cow, it will last more than that. But how long? Like hell is it going to last like Family Guy, Simpsons, or King of the Hill. There has to be a cut off point for the show.

This show will last for as long as it takes Lucas to wring every dollar of merchandising from it. It's that simple. It's easily one of CN's most profitable shows, so they're also going to be inclined to milk it for all it's worth. I mean, if this show was all about casting light on Anakin's motivation to Fall, then we wouldn't have so many episodes focusing squarely on goddamn Jar-Jar, or the mandalorians, or the Bail and padme adventure hour. There have been entire episodes that have had nothing to do with Anakin.

And these instances are examples of the producers broadening the focus and scope of the show. Which is not necessarily a bad thing for a TV show, don't get me wrong. But it does indicate that they're packing for the long haul. This show isn't gonna be ending any time soon, and it's not going to be resolving anything any time soon.

If that had been Lucas's only goal, he could have done a mini-series in which Ahsoka gets killed at the end. Or appears to be killed, thus plunging Anakin into a spiral of fear and despair. And that would do the trick.

But no. We've got episodes about young Boba. And about Jar-Jar and the Toydarians. And about Mandalorian politics.

That's more action figures Lucas can sell to you Zechs. You don't think he's gonna turn away from that while there's money to be made, do you? He's gonna milk this for as long as he can. I dunno how many seasons that's gonna be. But this ain't Babylon Five, where the writer has a clear goal of five seasons in which to tell and conclude his tale.

This is a business, and Lucas is one of the most successful people to have ever set foot in this business.

Rain Partier

Zechs wrote:Of course he's sacrificing himself routinely for others. He made a promise that he try with all his effort to make sure nobody important in his life dies. That's his reason. He never wanted to loose anyone important in his life EVER again. He lost his mother and he blamed himself for not getting his lazy Jedi ass sooner to save her. Thus he had connections (Padme and Ahsoka) and what's the big philosophy of the Jedi Order? Don't have them or you'll be open to the temptation of the dark side of the force. Anakin didn't have just five minutes to be turned fully over. The moment he massacred all those Sand People he be tainted with the dark side of the force. The only two things keeping him afloat in the good side was Padme. All it would take would be one event to fully shatter his loyalty to the Jedi Order. And that's what Palpatine pulled off in RoTS.

So, a bunch of clones also classify as the most important people in his life?

Come on. Anakin routinely puts himself at risk even for clones he doesn't know. He's a hero. The hero of the show in fact. And the reason for this is simple: you can't have some show aimed primarily at kids where a villain is the focal character. So, they give him heroic virtues.

The problem is, the more the portray him as a hero, the less-beleivable his fall to the Dark Side is.

Unless you're one of those kids I mentioned above.

With every virtuous thing he does, he moves further from the Dark Side, not closer to it. Nothing the show has done so far has shed any light on why Anakin would so suddenly turn to the Dark Side. And the reasons given in the movie were absurd.

And massacring Sand People is supposed to be an act of evil? The same guys who go out of their way to make unprovoked attacks on peaceful civilians? Seriously? There's some sort of moral ambiguity in...what? In killing the bad guys? They abducted and tortured his mother to death. The Tuskens aren't misunderstood people who would just rather live their lives in peace. They're fuckin' evil.

I could see him feeling guilty for killing the kids, sure. But at the same time, those little fuckfaces aren't gonna grow up to abduct and attack innocent farmers and shit in the future. Population of tatooine, feel free to thank Anakin at any time.

And if killing the bad guys is what forever taints Anakin, then every Jedi who's ever killed some evil being or creature is likewise forever tainted.

It's not the killing of these evil fucks that plagues Anakin. It's the fact that he did so out of anger and hatred. But even that doesn't make him unique. Obi-Wan did the same thing with Maul. Luke did the same thing when he whupped Vader. And hell, putting the Force Choke on that gammorean guard? Force Choke is a Dark Side technique, Zechs. It's no less evil to use than Force Lightning. So, is Luke forever tainted and fated to fall to the Dark Side as well? Obi-Wan?

In Expanded Universe, there's an entire history of Jedi killing and acting from anger who never fell. Look at Nomi Sunrider. Her career as a Jedi was born solely from anger and vengeance. She turned out pretty okay. Even Revan's crazy ass ended up just fine after doing far worse shit than Anakin ever did.

From what we've seen in Clone Wars to RoTS, he believes in everything Palpatine was spilling out to him. Just look at the second Zillo Beast episode where he never was on his own wife's side and kept going straight into Palpatine's natural order. Again I feel this was an unwarranted attachment the Jedi Order should have squashed but they so paid for that folly.

Palpatine has yet to reveal his true evil nature to Anakin. That means all the shit he's filling Anakin's head with is the virtues of democracy and order. There's nothing evil about believing in democracy and order. Anakin is devoted to palpatine because he and most everyone else in the Republic still have every reason to believe palpy is a good guy. Palpy doesn't even start telling Anakin any dark nefarious shit until RotS. And when he does, Anakin gets pissed the fuck off because he realizes Palpy is an evil Sith. In fact, Anakin wants to do the right thing and immediately bring Palpy to justice.

So that explanation doesn't ring true, Z.

Also you do realize that this show ain't gonna last ten seasons. The normal animated programing nowadays lasts four seasons at best with sixty four episodes in the can. After Season 3 this show will be almost to that point. However, given this show is as you say a cash cow, it will last more than that. But how long? Like hell is it going to last like Family Guy, Simpsons, or King of the Hill. There has to be a cut off point for the show.

This show will last for as long as it takes Lucas to wring every dollar of merchandising from it. It's that simple. It's easily one of CN's most profitable shows, so they're also going to be inclined to milk it for all it's worth. I mean, if this show was all about casting light on Anakin's motivation to Fall, then we wouldn't have so many episodes focusing squarely on goddamn Jar-Jar, or the mandalorians, or the Bail and padme adventure hour. There have been entire episodes that have had nothing to do with Anakin.

And these instances are examples of the producers broadening the focus and scope of the show. Which is not necessarily a bad thing for a TV show, don't get me wrong. But it does indicate that they're packing for the long haul. This show isn't gonna be ending any time soon, and it's not going to be resolving anything any time soon.

If that had been Lucas's only goal, he could have done a mini-series in which Ahsoka gets killed at the end. Or appears to be killed, thus plunging Anakin into a spiral of fear and despair. And that would do the trick.

But no. We've got episodes about young Boba. And about Jar-Jar and the Toydarians. And about Mandalorian politics.

That's more action figures Lucas can sell to you Zechs. You don't think he's gonna turn away from that while there's money to be made, do you? He's gonna milk this for as long as he can. I dunno how many seasons that's gonna be. But this ain't Babylon Five, where the writer has a clear goal of five seasons in which to tell and conclude his tale.

This is a business, and Lucas is one of the most successful people to have ever set foot in this business.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Outhouse Editor

Did I mention the clones anywhere? Your the one who brought that up Strict. He pretty much thinks of them lesser than the actual people in his life save for Rex since the clone is pretty damn good at his job. You really are being blind to the whole hints to his fall to this series?

I mean you just glaringly seem to forget I just pointed out areas where the show goes on to prove that Anakin isn't the most morally just character on the show. Besides he isn't the only main character on the show. Remember Obi-Wan and Ahsoka share the spotlight too in this. It just isn't all about Anakin.

Anakin just isn't a hero. He's a hero with a serious amount of flaws. The show points that out time and again. Hell the Jedi and Admirals roll their eyes at a Skywalker plan due to how chaotic and insane it is.

You also do remember Anakin not only killed the men who murdered his mother, but he also went on to kill everything that was alive in that campsite. He murdered women and children who had nothing to do at all with the damn kidnapping. Instead of a rescue mission it turns into a slaughter everything that moves. That's not very heroic at all. Sure you could look at it that way but the Sand People are a natural order on that planet. They have a purpose and their purpose is chaos. Anakin should have understood just take his mom's body and get the hell out of dodge. That would be the Jedi thing to do.

Instead again he goes on a killing spree succumbing to the dark side.It wasn't in Obi-Wan's case where it was kill or be killed when he fought Maul. However even he at the beginning of that duel was using it and his emotions where used against him by Maul. Obi-Wan calmed the hell up and then beat Maul. He showed no satisfaction in doing it. His first instinct was checking on Qui-Gon.

Luke when he went ape shit on Vader was exactly the point. Vader provoked him enough to use the dark side to just kick the holy hell out of his father. If not for Luke realizing this he'd succumb to the same fate his father had. And he was using the force as a defensive move when the guards went offensive in not letting him pass. Note he stopped the moment they backed away with the chock and didn't continue as something his father would have done.

Again the show actually shows off the negative traits of Anakin. They show that this guy has some pretty huge flaws in him and if those are cracked any further the dude is going to have a meltdown. RoTS proved that very point. Again you keep not noticing I've given evidence back and forth throughout the series thus far showing that Anakin isn't all that heroic in the show. That shady side does show up. Or does the fact that when a bad guy says to Obi-Wan and neutral politician, "Which one of you will buck up and commit cold blooded murder? Cause if you don't I commit an evil act ha ha!" Guess who stepped up to that challenge? It wasn't Obi-Wan, it was Anakin.

He snuck up behind the dude and killed him. They further hammered home the point with the friggin Imperial March playing as the bad guy coughed his last breath with Anakin standing up going, "What? He had a bomb."

Even more Anakin was about to murder Cad Bane as well if not for the situation Bane dealt. Anakin is hardly heroic in this. It showcases everything the good and the bad. So go on explain the said plot points.

Outhouse Editor

Did I mention the clones anywhere? Your the one who brought that up Strict. He pretty much thinks of them lesser than the actual people in his life save for Rex since the clone is pretty damn good at his job. You really are being blind to the whole hints to his fall to this series?

I mean you just glaringly seem to forget I just pointed out areas where the show goes on to prove that Anakin isn't the most morally just character on the show. Besides he isn't the only main character on the show. Remember Obi-Wan and Ahsoka share the spotlight too in this. It just isn't all about Anakin.

Anakin just isn't a hero. He's a hero with a serious amount of flaws. The show points that out time and again. Hell the Jedi and Admirals roll their eyes at a Skywalker plan due to how chaotic and insane it is.

You also do remember Anakin not only killed the men who murdered his mother, but he also went on to kill everything that was alive in that campsite. He murdered women and children who had nothing to do at all with the damn kidnapping. Instead of a rescue mission it turns into a slaughter everything that moves. That's not very heroic at all. Sure you could look at it that way but the Sand People are a natural order on that planet. They have a purpose and their purpose is chaos. Anakin should have understood just take his mom's body and get the hell out of dodge. That would be the Jedi thing to do.

Instead again he goes on a killing spree succumbing to the dark side.It wasn't in Obi-Wan's case where it was kill or be killed when he fought Maul. However even he at the beginning of that duel was using it and his emotions where used against him by Maul. Obi-Wan calmed the hell up and then beat Maul. He showed no satisfaction in doing it. His first instinct was checking on Qui-Gon.

Luke when he went ape shit on Vader was exactly the point. Vader provoked him enough to use the dark side to just kick the holy hell out of his father. If not for Luke realizing this he'd succumb to the same fate his father had. And he was using the force as a defensive move when the guards went offensive in not letting him pass. Note he stopped the moment they backed away with the chock and didn't continue as something his father would have done.

Again the show actually shows off the negative traits of Anakin. They show that this guy has some pretty huge flaws in him and if those are cracked any further the dude is going to have a meltdown. RoTS proved that very point. Again you keep not noticing I've given evidence back and forth throughout the series thus far showing that Anakin isn't all that heroic in the show. That shady side does show up. Or does the fact that when a bad guy says to Obi-Wan and neutral politician, "Which one of you will buck up and commit cold blooded murder? Cause if you don't I commit an evil act ha ha!" Guess who stepped up to that challenge? It wasn't Obi-Wan, it was Anakin.

He snuck up behind the dude and killed him. They further hammered home the point with the friggin Imperial March playing as the bad guy coughed his last breath with Anakin standing up going, "What? He had a bomb."

Even more Anakin was about to murder Cad Bane as well if not for the situation Bane dealt. Anakin is hardly heroic in this. It showcases everything the good and the bad. So go on explain the said plot points.

sdsichero wrote:I especially like and admire Zechs. He's everything I wish I could be!

penile prisoner

I have to agree with Strict on this one. The way Anakin's fall to the dark side was handled in the films was atrocious. He goes from being basically a hero to slaughtering kids in all of five minutes screen time. Because he had a bad dream.

Oh yeah, and Palpatine told him that his master whom he killed knew some secret that maybe would have helped. Though, apparently he never thought to ask his master what that secret was before he killed him, so I'm not sure what the relevance was supposed to be.

Meanwhile, since the voice actor for Anakin in the cartoon actually appears to have testicles he comes across as much more mature and sympathetic than the movie version. In fact, it's hard to believe that they are the same character. It makes it more, rather than less, jarring to consider that this guy is going to be slicing up Ahsoka's playmates in a few months time.

Imagine if Luke Skywalker had a bad dream and then just started raping Ewoks and stuff. That's what it's like.

penile prisoner

I have to agree with Strict on this one. The way Anakin's fall to the dark side was handled in the films was atrocious. He goes from being basically a hero to slaughtering kids in all of five minutes screen time. Because he had a bad dream.

Oh yeah, and Palpatine told him that his master whom he killed knew some secret that maybe would have helped. Though, apparently he never thought to ask his master what that secret was before he killed him, so I'm not sure what the relevance was supposed to be.

Meanwhile, since the voice actor for Anakin in the cartoon actually appears to have testicles he comes across as much more mature and sympathetic than the movie version. In fact, it's hard to believe that they are the same character. It makes it more, rather than less, jarring to consider that this guy is going to be slicing up Ahsoka's playmates in a few months time.

Imagine if Luke Skywalker had a bad dream and then just started raping Ewoks and stuff. That's what it's like.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Outhouse Editor

PDH wrote:I have to agree with Strict on this one. The way Anakin's fall to the dark side was handled in the films was atrocious. He goes from being basically a hero to slaughtering kids in all of five minutes screen time. Because he had a bad dream.

Oh yeah, and Palpatine told him that his master whom he killed knew some secret that maybe would have helped. Though, apparently he never thought to ask his master what that secret was before he killed him, so I'm not sure what the relevance was supposed to be.

Meanwhile, since the voice actor for Anakin in the cartoon actually appears to have testicles he comes across as much more mature and sympathetic than the movie version. In fact, it's hard to believe that they are the same character. It makes it more, rather than less, jarring to consider that this guy is going to be slicing up Ahsoka's playmates in a few months time.

Imagine if Luke Skywalker had a bad dream and then just started raping Ewoks and stuff. That's what it's like.

Yes sure because massacring sand people was a sane heroic response and can be completely overlooked? Even more so when it's mentioned again in RoTS. Though I agree the Anakin on this show is a lot better than Hayden. The whole point to Anakin's downfall was laid on in AoTC. Yeah the film is a piece of shit to muck through but it's in there the seeds of Anakin's downfall. And his entire downfall was the first 50 mins of RoTS not just the five mins when he declared his loyalty to Palpatine. He attained it the moment Palpatine said there was another way. So technically that's thirty minutes.

Outhouse Editor

PDH wrote:I have to agree with Strict on this one. The way Anakin's fall to the dark side was handled in the films was atrocious. He goes from being basically a hero to slaughtering kids in all of five minutes screen time. Because he had a bad dream.

Oh yeah, and Palpatine told him that his master whom he killed knew some secret that maybe would have helped. Though, apparently he never thought to ask his master what that secret was before he killed him, so I'm not sure what the relevance was supposed to be.

Meanwhile, since the voice actor for Anakin in the cartoon actually appears to have testicles he comes across as much more mature and sympathetic than the movie version. In fact, it's hard to believe that they are the same character. It makes it more, rather than less, jarring to consider that this guy is going to be slicing up Ahsoka's playmates in a few months time.

Imagine if Luke Skywalker had a bad dream and then just started raping Ewoks and stuff. That's what it's like.

Yes sure because massacring sand people was a sane heroic response and can be completely overlooked? Even more so when it's mentioned again in RoTS. Though I agree the Anakin on this show is a lot better than Hayden. The whole point to Anakin's downfall was laid on in AoTC. Yeah the film is a piece of shit to muck through but it's in there the seeds of Anakin's downfall. And his entire downfall was the first 50 mins of RoTS not just the five mins when he declared his loyalty to Palpatine. He attained it the moment Palpatine said there was another way. So technically that's thirty minutes.

sdsichero wrote:I especially like and admire Zechs. He's everything I wish I could be!

penile prisoner

Zechs wrote:Yes sure because massacring sand people was a sane heroic response and can be completely overlooked? Even more so when it's mentioned again in RoTS. Though I agree the Anakin on this show is a lot better than Hayden. The whole point to Anakin's downfall was laid on in AoTC. Yeah the film is a piece of shit to muck through but it's in there the seeds of Anakin's downfall. And his entire downfall was the first 50 mins of RoTS not just the five mins when he declared his loyalty to Palpatine. He attained it the moment Palpatine said there was another way. So technically that's thirty minutes.

The Sand People thing is not really that surprising. They've just killed his mother.

The five minutes was obviously an exaggeration. It was a pretty swift transformation was all I meant.

I'm just not seeing anything that would account for that dramatic a fall.

penile prisoner

Zechs wrote:Yes sure because massacring sand people was a sane heroic response and can be completely overlooked? Even more so when it's mentioned again in RoTS. Though I agree the Anakin on this show is a lot better than Hayden. The whole point to Anakin's downfall was laid on in AoTC. Yeah the film is a piece of shit to muck through but it's in there the seeds of Anakin's downfall. And his entire downfall was the first 50 mins of RoTS not just the five mins when he declared his loyalty to Palpatine. He attained it the moment Palpatine said there was another way. So technically that's thirty minutes.

The Sand People thing is not really that surprising. They've just killed his mother.

The five minutes was obviously an exaggeration. It was a pretty swift transformation was all I meant.

I'm just not seeing anything that would account for that dramatic a fall.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Outhouse Editor

PDH wrote:The Sand People thing is not really that surprising. They've just killed his mother.

The five minutes was obviously an exaggeration. It was a pretty swift transformation was all I meant.

I'm just not seeing anything that would account for that dramatic a fall.

It wasn't totally swift. There where parts of Anakin still within him. The part where he was crying alone on Mutasfar highlighted that fact. Anakin knew he fucked up big time. That he now cast his lot with the greatest evil the galaxy ever knew. And that part of him forever died during that cry of, "NOOOOOO!!!" Well, at least until Luke realized it still existed and tried to make his pop realize it was still there.

Outhouse Editor

PDH wrote:The Sand People thing is not really that surprising. They've just killed his mother.

The five minutes was obviously an exaggeration. It was a pretty swift transformation was all I meant.

I'm just not seeing anything that would account for that dramatic a fall.

It wasn't totally swift. There where parts of Anakin still within him. The part where he was crying alone on Mutasfar highlighted that fact. Anakin knew he fucked up big time. That he now cast his lot with the greatest evil the galaxy ever knew. And that part of him forever died during that cry of, "NOOOOOO!!!" Well, at least until Luke realized it still existed and tried to make his pop realize it was still there.

sdsichero wrote:I especially like and admire Zechs. He's everything I wish I could be!

Dragavon wrote:Zechs... is...

Zechs...is...

I can't say it. It's too horrible. Zechs...is...not...wrong...

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:49 pm

Zechs wrote:You where expecting this?

And instead got Strict and I bickering over Anakin's turn AGAIN?

Basically.

That and I thought I had entered the Star Trek one.

Notes - Strict's posts get real long in BOTH Star Trek and Star Wars threads.

I also kind of agree with both of you, but Strict more here, this time. The CW series has done more to show a stable Anakin then not and as a result, as Strict stabbed... I mean posted, it's detracted from the belief of Anakin being the crazy bad ass that becomes Darth Vader.

BUT, if they keep showing he and Ashoka becoming closer and then she gets offed near the end... you get proven right.

Notes - Strict's posts get real long in BOTH Star Trek and Star Wars threads.

I also kind of agree with both of you, but Strict more here, this time. The CW series has done more to show a stable Anakin then not and as a result, as Strict stabbed... I mean posted, it's detracted from the belief of Anakin being the crazy bad ass that becomes Darth Vader.

BUT, if they keep showing he and Ashoka becoming closer and then she gets offed near the end... you get proven right.

Rain Partier

Zechs wrote:Did I mention the clones anywhere? Your the one who brought that up Strict. He pretty much thinks of them lesser than the actual people in his life save for Rex since the clone is pretty damn good at his job. You really are being blind to the whole hints to his fall to this series?

Bullshit. Anakin doesn't treat his clone soldiers any differently than anyone else, and he'll go out of his way to save them when necessary. You're blind if you haven't noticed that.

And I thought the reason I brought up the clones was fuckin' clear: to show that he will risk his life for ANYBODY, like any other hero would.

I mean you just glaringly seem to forget I just pointed out areas where the show goes on to prove that Anakin isn't the most morally just character on the show. Besides he isn't the only main character on the show. Remember Obi-Wan and Ahsoka share the spotlight too in this. It just isn't all about Anakin.

There's a difference between contradicting what you've pointed out and ignoring it. In other words, I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I'm disagreeing with it.. My point is that the Jedi are, historically and specifically, no more moral than Anakin has been shown to be. Or...did you glaringly forget where I said that earlier? The examples I gave? Did you miss that?

Anakin just isn't a hero. He's a hero with a serious amount of flaws. The show points that out time and again. Hell the Jedi and Admirals roll their eyes at a Skywalker plan due to how chaotic and insane it is.

Having a crazy plan doesn't make any person evil, or more susceptible to evil, and it's an illogical leap to submit this as evidence of the same.

You also do remember Anakin not only killed the men who murdered his mother, but he also went on to kill everything that was alive in that campsite. He murdered women and children who had nothing to do at all with the damn kidnapping. Instead of a rescue mission it turns into a slaughter everything that moves. That's not very heroic at all. Sure you could look at it that way but the Sand People are a natural order on that planet. They have a purpose and their purpose is chaos. Anakin should have understood just take his mom's body and get the hell out of dodge. That would be the Jedi thing to do.

You're so full of shit here. the Sand People serve a natural purpose? Abducting and torturing innocent people? That's their natural purpose?

Are you shitting me?

I mean, you're making another leap here in the assumption that the Sand People are part of any sort of natural order. And you're ignoring the fact that they willfully attack people with zero provocation. Repeatedly.The evidence of this is in the movies themselves. They tortured Shmi nearly to death. And she finally did die of her injuries. They just snatched her up for no reason and tied her up and tortured her. I mean, did you think the bitch just died of cervical cancer or some shit?

And those little baby Sand people (which I did mention, BTW) are gonna grow up to do the same thing.

If you've got a rat infestation in your house, are you not gonna kill the babies and mommies just because they're babies and mommies? And the Sand People are a thousand times worse than rats, because they can use guns.

It's ironic that you're pissed at me for "ignoring" what you've said, when you are clearly either ignoring or simply not reading what I've said.

Instead again he goes on a killing spree succumbing to the dark side.It wasn't in Obi-Wan's case where it was kill or be killed when he fought Maul. However even he at the beginning of that duel was using it and his emotions where used against him by Maul. Obi-Wan calmed the hell up and then beat Maul. He showed no satisfaction in doing it. His first instinct was checking on Qui-Gon.

So, by your logic, Anakin should have let this tribe of Tuskens...what? Continue to abduct and murder innocent people? Would you really spare your mercy for murderers and not for innocent people like Anakin's mom? That's fucking nonsense.

And obi-Wan's first instinct wasn't to check on Qui-Gon. His first instinct was to kill the shit out of the guy who killed the shit out of his mentor. Which is a perfectly natural emotion to feel. He succumbed to his rage, despite the fact that he eventually regained control. So did Anakin. So did Nomi. So did Revan. So did Luke. Many Jedi have acted out of rage, and it didn't mean they were forever tainted by the Dark Side.

Luke when he went ape shit on Vader was exactly the point. Vader provoked him enough to use the dark side to just kick the holy hell out of his father. If not for Luke realizing this he'd succumb to the same fate his father had. And he was using the force as a defensive move when the guards went offensive in not letting him pass. Note he stopped the moment they backed away with the chock and didn't continue as something his father would have done.

Luke wasn't using the Dark Side to whup his dad. He was using his skills with a lightsaber. he also happened to be pissed is all. The point here, again, is that many Jedi have acted while in a rage, and it didn't damn then immediately and forever to the dark side. Anakin used his rage to kill a group of willfully evil beings who routinely show an inclination to harm others. He felt guilty about it, but that's a good thing.

And no Zechs, the mere use of Force Choke is a Dark Side act. It uses Dark Side energy to specifically harm the target. That's Dark Side, simple and plain. You're making excuses for Luke, but they don't stand up to reason. He used an evil power for his own benefit, and it didn't condemn him eternally to evil. The first time Anakin used Force Choke was after he'd already turned to the Dark Side. Shit, those guards were just fuckin' doing their job. He was the one who was trespassing on private property. He broke the fuck in, and they, as the guards of the place are supposed to stop intruders.

To make matters worse, the fckers didn't even attack him. They just moved to stop him. And before they had a chance to do anything else, he pimp choked them.

Gammoreans are probably just as weak-minded as the average Stormtrooper, so Luke could have used the Jedi Mind Trick on them. But he willfully chose to use a Dark Side technique. Anakin didn't use ANY Dark Side powers until after he'd already turned evil.

And again, the point here is that this didn't condemn him to evil.

One question, though: it's okay to use the Dark Side to Force Choke some guys who are just doing their job, and who literally haven't harmed anyone, but it's bad-bad-bad to kill a bunch of Tuskens who have already harmed people, and will again? Shit, we KNOW they'll continue to attack people, because 20 years down the line, they attack Luke without any provocation. And that means, yes, even their kids are a threat, because they'll grow up to be big and strong Tuskens. And the women are a threat because guess who makes baby Tuskens?

Again the show actually shows off the negative traits of Anakin. They show that this guy has some pretty huge flaws in him and if those are cracked any further the dude is going to have a meltdown. RoTS proved that very point. Again you keep not noticing I've given evidence back and forth throughout the series thus far showing that Anakin isn't all that heroic in the show. That shady side does show up. Or does the fact that when a bad guy says to Obi-Wan and neutral politician, "Which one of you will buck up and commit cold blooded murder? Cause if you don't I commit an evil act ha ha!" Guess who stepped up to that challenge? It wasn't Obi-Wan, it was Anakin.

I'm disagreeing with your conclusions about your so-called evidence. Not ignoring it. I've adressed every point you've raised. And given the fact that you're doing exactly what you seem to think I've been doing, it would be great if you could shut the hell up about that shit.

What I've been telling you is that every one of Anakin's "bad traits" in the show has been seen in Jedi throughout the history of the Order. So, if Anakin is a bad guy because he killed some bad guys in anger, then so is Nomi Sunrider, who is considered one of the greatest Jedi in history.

He snuck up behind the dude and killed him. They further hammered home the point with the friggin Imperial March playing as the bad guy coughed his last breath with Anakin standing up going, "What? He had a bomb."

Even more Anakin was about to murder Cad Bane as well if not for the situation Bane dealt. Anakin is hardly heroic in this. It showcases everything the good and the bad. So go on explain the said plot points.

So...are you trying to make the argument that killing bad guys IN A WAR makes a hero into a bad guy? Or, that it's evidence that he's doing bad things when he kills the bad guys? Before they can hurt more people than they already have?

Fucking Cad Bane is a ruthless, merciless sum'bitch who has killed people before and is more than willing to do so again. He was going to blow up the entire Senate building just to keep anyone from chasing him. He's a murderer who has taken advantage of mercy and kindness afforded to him, to threaten innocents again and again. Are you saying Anakin should have allowed Bane the opportunity to kill some more people before he was justified in trying to kill Bane?

At what point in your estimation is it alright to kill a bad guy?

The Jedi are mistaken about a great many things, to use Palpy's own words.

1. Rather than teach their students how to confront and control their emotions, they instead teach them to repress their emotions. And as a result, we get jedi masters running around who are utterly uninterested in freeing slaves from oppression. What? It's more moral for the Jedi to focus on resolving an economic dispute than stopping the institutionalized slavery the Hutts have created?

2. The Jedi have absolutely know idea what it takes to fight a war. If you don't kill the enemy, the enemy will kill you. Or your friends. Shit, maybe the jedi should watch Saving Private Ryan, and pay close attention to the mercy Upham showed that German. Remember? The one who ended up killing Tom Hanks' character? Even if the enemy is helpless, a soldier doesn't always have the luxury of leaving them to live, because they might end up fighting another day.

And the Jedi didn't have to get involved in this war. They certainly didn't get involved in the Mandalorian War, and they were every bit the threat to the Galaxy that the Trade Feddies were. Hell, the Sith got involved, supporting the Mandies, and still, the jedi chose not to get involved. And they didn't want to get involved back then, because of their utter and absolute fear of temptation. So, they could have avoided the moral ambiguity of this war if they wanted to. They chose to get involved, so they need to understand that war demands cruelty of the warrior.

A good warrior focuses that cruelty. Kills when he must, even though the act of killing is wrong. He may feel guilt or even horror at what he's done, but he does this because it needs to be done.

Now, killing a shit ton of bad guys is quite a good distance from eagerly killing Younglings. And no, fuck no, nothing we've seen in the show or the movies explains how Anakin goes from being afraid for padme to baby-killer in a single five minute scene. Nothing you've pointed out here as an example even comes close to laying the groundwork for that shift in behavior. I haven't been ignoring you. I've been saying your argument is insufficient to the task of explaining why Anakin goes from being a good soldier and a good man to murdering children.

Rain Partier

Zechs wrote:Did I mention the clones anywhere? Your the one who brought that up Strict. He pretty much thinks of them lesser than the actual people in his life save for Rex since the clone is pretty damn good at his job. You really are being blind to the whole hints to his fall to this series?

Bullshit. Anakin doesn't treat his clone soldiers any differently than anyone else, and he'll go out of his way to save them when necessary. You're blind if you haven't noticed that.

And I thought the reason I brought up the clones was fuckin' clear: to show that he will risk his life for ANYBODY, like any other hero would.

I mean you just glaringly seem to forget I just pointed out areas where the show goes on to prove that Anakin isn't the most morally just character on the show. Besides he isn't the only main character on the show. Remember Obi-Wan and Ahsoka share the spotlight too in this. It just isn't all about Anakin.

There's a difference between contradicting what you've pointed out and ignoring it. In other words, I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I'm disagreeing with it.. My point is that the Jedi are, historically and specifically, no more moral than Anakin has been shown to be. Or...did you glaringly forget where I said that earlier? The examples I gave? Did you miss that?

Anakin just isn't a hero. He's a hero with a serious amount of flaws. The show points that out time and again. Hell the Jedi and Admirals roll their eyes at a Skywalker plan due to how chaotic and insane it is.

Having a crazy plan doesn't make any person evil, or more susceptible to evil, and it's an illogical leap to submit this as evidence of the same.

You also do remember Anakin not only killed the men who murdered his mother, but he also went on to kill everything that was alive in that campsite. He murdered women and children who had nothing to do at all with the damn kidnapping. Instead of a rescue mission it turns into a slaughter everything that moves. That's not very heroic at all. Sure you could look at it that way but the Sand People are a natural order on that planet. They have a purpose and their purpose is chaos. Anakin should have understood just take his mom's body and get the hell out of dodge. That would be the Jedi thing to do.

You're so full of shit here. the Sand People serve a natural purpose? Abducting and torturing innocent people? That's their natural purpose?

Are you shitting me?

I mean, you're making another leap here in the assumption that the Sand People are part of any sort of natural order. And you're ignoring the fact that they willfully attack people with zero provocation. Repeatedly.The evidence of this is in the movies themselves. They tortured Shmi nearly to death. And she finally did die of her injuries. They just snatched her up for no reason and tied her up and tortured her. I mean, did you think the bitch just died of cervical cancer or some shit?

And those little baby Sand people (which I did mention, BTW) are gonna grow up to do the same thing.

If you've got a rat infestation in your house, are you not gonna kill the babies and mommies just because they're babies and mommies? And the Sand People are a thousand times worse than rats, because they can use guns.

It's ironic that you're pissed at me for "ignoring" what you've said, when you are clearly either ignoring or simply not reading what I've said.

Instead again he goes on a killing spree succumbing to the dark side.It wasn't in Obi-Wan's case where it was kill or be killed when he fought Maul. However even he at the beginning of that duel was using it and his emotions where used against him by Maul. Obi-Wan calmed the hell up and then beat Maul. He showed no satisfaction in doing it. His first instinct was checking on Qui-Gon.

So, by your logic, Anakin should have let this tribe of Tuskens...what? Continue to abduct and murder innocent people? Would you really spare your mercy for murderers and not for innocent people like Anakin's mom? That's fucking nonsense.

And obi-Wan's first instinct wasn't to check on Qui-Gon. His first instinct was to kill the shit out of the guy who killed the shit out of his mentor. Which is a perfectly natural emotion to feel. He succumbed to his rage, despite the fact that he eventually regained control. So did Anakin. So did Nomi. So did Revan. So did Luke. Many Jedi have acted out of rage, and it didn't mean they were forever tainted by the Dark Side.

Luke when he went ape shit on Vader was exactly the point. Vader provoked him enough to use the dark side to just kick the holy hell out of his father. If not for Luke realizing this he'd succumb to the same fate his father had. And he was using the force as a defensive move when the guards went offensive in not letting him pass. Note he stopped the moment they backed away with the chock and didn't continue as something his father would have done.

Luke wasn't using the Dark Side to whup his dad. He was using his skills with a lightsaber. he also happened to be pissed is all. The point here, again, is that many Jedi have acted while in a rage, and it didn't damn then immediately and forever to the dark side. Anakin used his rage to kill a group of willfully evil beings who routinely show an inclination to harm others. He felt guilty about it, but that's a good thing.

And no Zechs, the mere use of Force Choke is a Dark Side act. It uses Dark Side energy to specifically harm the target. That's Dark Side, simple and plain. You're making excuses for Luke, but they don't stand up to reason. He used an evil power for his own benefit, and it didn't condemn him eternally to evil. The first time Anakin used Force Choke was after he'd already turned to the Dark Side. Shit, those guards were just fuckin' doing their job. He was the one who was trespassing on private property. He broke the fuck in, and they, as the guards of the place are supposed to stop intruders.

To make matters worse, the fckers didn't even attack him. They just moved to stop him. And before they had a chance to do anything else, he pimp choked them.

Gammoreans are probably just as weak-minded as the average Stormtrooper, so Luke could have used the Jedi Mind Trick on them. But he willfully chose to use a Dark Side technique. Anakin didn't use ANY Dark Side powers until after he'd already turned evil.

And again, the point here is that this didn't condemn him to evil.

One question, though: it's okay to use the Dark Side to Force Choke some guys who are just doing their job, and who literally haven't harmed anyone, but it's bad-bad-bad to kill a bunch of Tuskens who have already harmed people, and will again? Shit, we KNOW they'll continue to attack people, because 20 years down the line, they attack Luke without any provocation. And that means, yes, even their kids are a threat, because they'll grow up to be big and strong Tuskens. And the women are a threat because guess who makes baby Tuskens?

Again the show actually shows off the negative traits of Anakin. They show that this guy has some pretty huge flaws in him and if those are cracked any further the dude is going to have a meltdown. RoTS proved that very point. Again you keep not noticing I've given evidence back and forth throughout the series thus far showing that Anakin isn't all that heroic in the show. That shady side does show up. Or does the fact that when a bad guy says to Obi-Wan and neutral politician, "Which one of you will buck up and commit cold blooded murder? Cause if you don't I commit an evil act ha ha!" Guess who stepped up to that challenge? It wasn't Obi-Wan, it was Anakin.

I'm disagreeing with your conclusions about your so-called evidence. Not ignoring it. I've adressed every point you've raised. And given the fact that you're doing exactly what you seem to think I've been doing, it would be great if you could shut the hell up about that shit.

What I've been telling you is that every one of Anakin's "bad traits" in the show has been seen in Jedi throughout the history of the Order. So, if Anakin is a bad guy because he killed some bad guys in anger, then so is Nomi Sunrider, who is considered one of the greatest Jedi in history.

He snuck up behind the dude and killed him. They further hammered home the point with the friggin Imperial March playing as the bad guy coughed his last breath with Anakin standing up going, "What? He had a bomb."

Even more Anakin was about to murder Cad Bane as well if not for the situation Bane dealt. Anakin is hardly heroic in this. It showcases everything the good and the bad. So go on explain the said plot points.

So...are you trying to make the argument that killing bad guys IN A WAR makes a hero into a bad guy? Or, that it's evidence that he's doing bad things when he kills the bad guys? Before they can hurt more people than they already have?

Fucking Cad Bane is a ruthless, merciless sum'bitch who has killed people before and is more than willing to do so again. He was going to blow up the entire Senate building just to keep anyone from chasing him. He's a murderer who has taken advantage of mercy and kindness afforded to him, to threaten innocents again and again. Are you saying Anakin should have allowed Bane the opportunity to kill some more people before he was justified in trying to kill Bane?

At what point in your estimation is it alright to kill a bad guy?

The Jedi are mistaken about a great many things, to use Palpy's own words.

1. Rather than teach their students how to confront and control their emotions, they instead teach them to repress their emotions. And as a result, we get jedi masters running around who are utterly uninterested in freeing slaves from oppression. What? It's more moral for the Jedi to focus on resolving an economic dispute than stopping the institutionalized slavery the Hutts have created?

2. The Jedi have absolutely know idea what it takes to fight a war. If you don't kill the enemy, the enemy will kill you. Or your friends. Shit, maybe the jedi should watch Saving Private Ryan, and pay close attention to the mercy Upham showed that German. Remember? The one who ended up killing Tom Hanks' character? Even if the enemy is helpless, a soldier doesn't always have the luxury of leaving them to live, because they might end up fighting another day.

And the Jedi didn't have to get involved in this war. They certainly didn't get involved in the Mandalorian War, and they were every bit the threat to the Galaxy that the Trade Feddies were. Hell, the Sith got involved, supporting the Mandies, and still, the jedi chose not to get involved. And they didn't want to get involved back then, because of their utter and absolute fear of temptation. So, they could have avoided the moral ambiguity of this war if they wanted to. They chose to get involved, so they need to understand that war demands cruelty of the warrior.

A good warrior focuses that cruelty. Kills when he must, even though the act of killing is wrong. He may feel guilt or even horror at what he's done, but he does this because it needs to be done.

Now, killing a shit ton of bad guys is quite a good distance from eagerly killing Younglings. And no, fuck no, nothing we've seen in the show or the movies explains how Anakin goes from being afraid for padme to baby-killer in a single five minute scene. Nothing you've pointed out here as an example even comes close to laying the groundwork for that shift in behavior. I haven't been ignoring you. I've been saying your argument is insufficient to the task of explaining why Anakin goes from being a good soldier and a good man to murdering children.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Rain Partier

Cat-Scratch wrote:BUT, if they keep showing he and Ashoka becoming closer and then she gets offed near the end... you get proven right.

That's what I've been saying for quite some time now in the Clone Wars thread. Only Ahsoka's death (or the appearance that she's died) could be the catalyst.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Edward II: Act 2 Scene 1, by Christopher Marlowe

The Old Doctor

by The Old Doctor » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:18 pm

Strict31 wrote:That's what I've been saying for quite some time now in the Clone Wars thread. Only Ahsoka's death (or the appearance that she's died) could be the catalyst.

I wouldn't really say the only one, but the most obvious one.

Some event which leads to a death or massive number of deaths could work. Something where Anakin feels conflicted between being a bit of a rogue or a strict by the book type of Jedi. I'd also say the breaking of the rules type scenes could also lead to it, as Zechs says, but so far, they're too few and far apart to be the cause. As you said, her death or near death is a perfect catalyst and fits with Lucas style of crayon writing. If her death is connected with Asajj Ventress and Anakin feels bad for not having offed her earlier in the war...

The Old Doctor

Strict31 wrote:That's what I've been saying for quite some time now in the Clone Wars thread. Only Ahsoka's death (or the appearance that she's died) could be the catalyst.

I wouldn't really say the only one, but the most obvious one.

Some event which leads to a death or massive number of deaths could work. Something where Anakin feels conflicted between being a bit of a rogue or a strict by the book type of Jedi. I'd also say the breaking of the rules type scenes could also lead to it, as Zechs says, but so far, they're too few and far apart to be the cause. As you said, her death or near death is a perfect catalyst and fits with Lucas style of crayon writing. If her death is connected with Asajj Ventress and Anakin feels bad for not having offed her earlier in the war...