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Tuesday, July 30, 2013

The Insanity of Gay Marriage Leads to the Next Big Liberal Thing - Legalized Pedophilia!!!

Normal Americans understood that marriage was a joining of a man and a woman. It always has been and to try to change the definition of marriage was not only insane, it was detrimental to society. But this effort to"normalize" homosexuality was never just about homosexuals. Marriage was an institution that the liberals and deviants wanted to attack and destroy if possible as the assault on the Judeo-Christian moral foundation of the United States is under attack from all sides.

As I predicted years ago, the push to legalize so-called "gay marriage" was in large part funded and promoted by NAMBLA. NAMBLA is the North American Man/Boy Love Association. The aims of the group are pretty obvious from the name. Male homosexuals are the most likely of all groups to molest children. Therefore, the group seeks to make sex with children legal and then, naturally, promote "marriage" between men and boys.

The will of the people was expressed in the DOMA = Defense of Marriage Act. The majority of Americans do NOT want marriage to be destroyed and redefined and they certainly do not want children to become the legal prey of sexual predators. But that is where we are headed...article by Jack Minor, below, is a preview of where our society seems to be heading:

Claim unfair to be stigmatized for sexual orientation

by Jack Minor –

Using the same tactics used by “gay” rights activists, pedophiles have begun to seek similar status arguing their desire for children is a sexual orientation no different than heterosexual or homosexuals.

Critics of the homosexual lifestyle have long claimed that once it became acceptable to identify homosexuality as simply an “alternative lifestyle” or sexual orientation, logically nothing would be off limits. “Gay” advocates have taken offense at such a position insisting this would never happen. However, psychiatrists are now beginning to advocate redefining pedophilia in the same way homosexuality was redefined several years ago.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. A group of psychiatrists with B4U-Act recently held a symposium proposing a new definition of pedophilia in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders of the APA.

B4U-Act calls pedophiles “minor-attracted people.” The organization’s website states its purpose is to, “help mental health professionals learn more about attraction to minors and to consider the effects of stereotyping, stigma and fear.”

In 1998 The APA issued a report claiming “that the ‘negative potential’ of adult sex with children was ‘overstated’ and that ‘the vast majority of both men and women reported no negative sexual effects from childhood sexual abuse experiences.”

Pedophilia has already been granted protected status by the Federal Government. The Matthew Shephard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act lists “sexual orientation” as a protected class; however, it does not define the term.

Republicans attempted to add an amendment specifying that “pedophilia is not covered as an orientation;” however, the amendment was defeated by Democrats. Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-Fl) stated that all alternative sexual lifestyles should be protected under the law. “This bill addresses our resolve to end violence based on prejudice and to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability or all of these ‘philias’ and fetishes and ‘isms’ that were put forward need not live in fear because of who they are. I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this rule.”

The White House praised the bill saying, “At root, this isn’t just about our laws; this is about who we are as a people. This is about whether we value one another – whether we embrace our differences rather than allowing them to become a source of animus.”

Earlier this year two psychologists in Canada declared that pedophilia is a sexual orientation just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.

Van Gijseghem, psychologist and retired professor of the University of Montreal, told members of Parliament, “Pedophiles are not simply people who commit a small offense from time to time but rather are grappling with what is equivalent to a sexual orientation just like another individual may be grappling with heterosexuality or even homosexuality.”

He went on to say, “True pedophiles have an exclusive preference for children, which is the same as having a sexual orientation. You cannot change this person’s sexual orientation. He may, however, remain abstinent.”

When asked if he should be comparing pedophiles to homosexuals, Van Gijseghem replied, “If, for instance, you were living in a society where heterosexuality is proscribed or prohibited and you were told that you had to get therapy to change your sexual orientation, you would probably say that that is slightly crazy. In other words, you would not accept that at all. I use this analogy to say that, yes indeed, pedophiles do not change their sexual orientation.”

Dr. Quinsey, professor emeritus of psychology at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, agreed with Van Gijseghem. Quinsey said pedophiles’ sexual interests prefer children and, “There is no evidence that this sort of preference can be changed through treatment or through anything else.”

In July, 2010 Harvard health Publications said, “Pedophilia is a sexual orientation and unlikely to change. Treatment aims to enable someone to resist acting on his sexual urges.”

Linda Harvey, of Mission America, said the push for pedophiles to have equal rights will become more and more common as LGBT groups continue to assert themselves. “It’s all part of a plan to introduce sex to children at younger and younger ages; to convince them that normal friendship is actually a sexual attraction.”

Milton Diamond, a University of Hawaii professor and director of the Pacific Center for Sex and Society, stated that child pornography could be beneficial to society because, “Potential sex offenders use child pornography as a substitute for sex against children.”

Diamond is a distinguished lecturer for the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. The IASHS openly advocated for the repeal of the Revolutionary war ban on homosexuals serving in the military.

The IASHS lists, on its website, a list of “basic sexual rights” that includes “the right to engage in sexual acts or activities of any kind whatsoever, providing they do not involve nonconsensual acts, violence, constraint, coercion or fraud.” Another right is to, “be free of persecution, condemnation, discrimination, or societal intervention in private sexual behavior” and “the freedom of any sexual thought, fantasy or desire.” The organization also says that no one should be “disadvantaged because of age.”

Sex offender laws protecting children have been challenged in several states including California, Georgia and Iowa. Sex offenders claim the laws prohibiting them from living near schools or parks are unfair because it penalizes them for life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

America, you thought you wanted society to change? Well, keep your eyes on your kids because they are the next item on the menu for the anti-God crowd that pushed to destroy the institution of marriage and seeks to establish a tyrannical dictatorship of the Socialist/Fascist kind here in the USA. The elites and their friends wish to try out the same kind of collective that was the USSR and frankly the idea of God is the great enemy of tyrants. So therefore tyrants hate God and certainly hate Creationists and those who have shown Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true in real-time lab experiments and studies.

Darwinism and Socialism are among the weapons of the promoters of a new Dystopia. You can go ahead and lead a vapid, uncaring lifestyle until the world falls down around your ears OR you could begin to care...and vote with brain engaged for a change? We make our own future and, if we are not actively engaged in making it, someone will be making it for you. Here's a hint? When someone else is planning your future, it is not likely your benefit is very high on their priority list.

The hate-mongering and demonization continues... Just how stupid and religiously brainwashed do you have to be to not be able to see the difference between a relationship consisting of two consenting adults and that of an adult abusing a minor? This blog is beyond absurd. As is said often with you extremists, I'm kinda glad you have the bible as a guide (despite its many obvious flaws) because with out it it would appear that you would spend most of your lives murdering people and raping children.

Oh and not a single "real-time lab experiment" or "study" has ever proved ID, by-the-way. Not one. And if I'm wrong, prove it. ID is trumped up creationism and here is the court case that proves that fact.

As I predicted years ago, the push to legalize so-called "gay marriage" was in large part funded and promoted by NAMBLA.

I didn't know that, but it if its true then it sounds like NAMBLA outsmarted themselves.

The current marriage equality proposals are just focused on allowing same-sex couples to marry. NAMBLA might have tried to sneak in clauses changing the age of consent, but they weren't successful, so they're no better off than they were before.

And they're not going to have any luck changing the age of consent in a standalone bill later on. I know lots of people who passionately support same-sex marriage, but I don't know anyone who has any interest in lowering the age of consent.

I see that there's a big push for marriage equality in Illinois right now. I hope you'll give your pro-equality neighbors your support, so that they won't have to turn to NAMBLA for help. I don't think NAMBLA would be able to slip in their age-of-consent changes, but why risk it?

Chaos, age limits have been lowered already in a couple of states and, as the article asserts and you ignore, the definition of pedophilia is being changed. This is following the same path as homosexuality.

Yes, once people said those same things about homosexuality being normalized in the textbook definitions and the next thing you know they attack marriage? I cannot believe the public is so STUPID since civil unions were legal...of course many states voted AGAINST gay marriage but the Obamites are trying to make it mandatory anyway for states to accept the abomination. Marriage is an institution established as a union between man and woman. Homosexuals want to pretend they get married. You can slap the label on them but it ain't marriage!

Dover was a joke, Canucklehead, because the Darwinists pretended that ID was a religion while asserting that Darwinism is a science and that is pretty much backwards. But the judge was lured into getting his fifteen minutes of fame and he actually copied much of his opinion word-for-word from a press release and some Darwinist arguments presented. All to get his name in the Rolling Stone? What a farce! The case was never about science and every time such a case comes up, Darwinist play the "ID is Creation in disguise" card and avoid dealing with actual scientific arguments.

But courts cannot decide what is true in science. Courts could not stop a Heliocentric Solar System from being true nor can they stop irreducible complexity from being true. Darwinism is accepted because people do not question it in academia or scientific institutions lest they be black-balled. Good thing the NCSE doesn't have a rack or a auto de fé system in place!

Right, a Republican American Federal Court Judge that was appointed by George W. Bush, ruled against ID in this case in a premeditated attempt to get into the pages of Rolling Stone? And you actually expect rational people to take you seriously?

And you're saying that the Discovery Institute provides "proof" of ID? And yet you cant cite anything? Weird.

Here's a great excerpt from the first link "A federal court, along with the majority of scientific organizations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, say the Institute has manufactured the controversy they want to teach by promoting a false perception that evolution is "a theory in crisis",[7] through incorrectly claiming that it is the subject of wide controversy and debate within the scientific community.[8][9][10] In 2005, a federal court ruled that the Discovery Institute pursues "demonstrably religious, cultural, and legal missions",[7][9][11] and the institute's manifesto, the Wedge strategy,[12] describes a religious goal: to "reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions".[13][14] It was the Federal Court's opinion that intelligent design was merely a redressing of creationism and that, as such, it was not a scientific proposition."

Hmmm... Seems like they might be kinda biased, no? You have any non-religiously motivated "scientists" that support your ID proof claims? Didn't think so.

Oh and you may want to brush up on your history a little, as it wasn't "the courts" that tried to "stop a Heliocentric Solar System" it was the church. I'd say I was surprised you didn't know that but we all know you've been shown this before and yet choose to continue to spread lies. Typical. For your reference,

How can you reason with people who consider Wikipedia to be a source of wisdom? Answer: You probably cannot. Those who will accept the lamestream news media account of what is happening in the world and expect Wikipedia to be authoritative will be hand-fed dumbed-down versions of history and science and the real world will pass them by.

It is a shame so few people decide to research and inspect what others blindly swallow.

I have a Bloodhound-Shepherd mix who will not catch any food in midair and swallow it. Whether it be a small chunk of chicken or a dog treat or a piece of gristle or a slice of carrot, she'll let it bonk off of her nose and she will sniff it carefully while it is on the floor. Once she is sure it is safe to eat, she will swallow it. However, if I hand her something she will gently take it from me and eat.

Too many of you swallow propaganda without even checking to see if it is true, let alone harmful! Darwinism has led to more race-related murders than any other philosophy I can think of, it has certainly hindered medical research and led to the acceptance of Jim Crow laws and segregation in this country in the 20th Century as well as mass sterilizations. It is stupid on steroids and continues to be a drag on the scientific community. It is a key part of the Communist/Socialist agenda and certainly in tune with the global climate alarmists, those dopes with their chicken-little cries of alarm based on lies and faked research? Pass out the tinfoil hats!

America was founded as a christian nation, right? You did say, once:More on the Christian foundation of this United States of America. That the United States was formed on the basis of Christian morality and the laws derived from primarily Bible sources and others who referenced the Bible is an historical fact. Facts do not often seem to convince Darwinists, however, so...

You do realize that the age of consent in early america was way lower? As low as 7. Average of about 10 amongst the states.

Have christian principles on the age of consent changed over time? Or maybe it was the gay darwinist's faults for that back in the 1800's? Or maybe its just that you project modern values into your chosen interpretation of christian morality.

Don't misconstrue this as an argument for lowering the age of consent.

Lava, maybe I study history and spend more than going through Cliff's Notes on the subject? The USA was founded on the Judeo-Christian moral code and was imported to some extent from the code of laws in place in England. The idea was to build a new, free and Godly nation where people were able to advance if they had the courage and ability to do something with it.

As the Founding Fathers labored over the English Law, the Bible, the words of Blackstone and so on, they were building a foundation for a nation and certainly were not even considering concepts like age of consent. Such matters were to be left to the States. The States didn't do much about establishing age of consent laws, setting unusually low ages as there would be little chance of an adult taking a child for sex in a public way. Society would not tolerate such things, so any pedophilia was hidden and not public.

As society became more open about sexuality, society became aware of sexual predation towards children and age of consent laws were passed that put the age of 16-18 years and even older. This was the natural course of a nation built on Christian principles applying them to life. Slaves were freed, women got the vote, no more marriages to children, territories became states and marshals ans sheriffs and police brought peace.

However, evil Darwinism has been an excuse to promote racism, Atheism and sexual perversion for some 150 years, so now it has been lowered to 14 or 13 in some states by applying "Romeo and Juliet" statutes. NAMBlA will be pushing to lower that age, natch.

Neither US history nor world history is as simplistic as many commenters present it in comments. Like architects trying to build a skyscraper with Tinkertoys. Yes, Lava, the USA was built on a Christian foundation and, if the rest of the building followed the blueprint we'd not have so much crime and misery and debt and ignorance as we do now.

Lava, maybe I study history and spend more than going through Cliff's Notes on the subject?

Probably not.

As the Founding Fathers labored over the English Law, the Bible, the words of Blackstone and so on, they were building a foundation for a nation and certainly were not even considering concepts like age of consent. Such matters were to be left to the States. The States didn't do much about establishing age of consent laws, setting unusually low ages as there would be little chance of an adult taking a child for sex in a public way. Society would not tolerate such things, so any pedophilia was hidden and not public.

Pure supposition.

[The age of consent] has been lowered to 14 or 13 in some states by applying "Romeo and Juliet" statutes. NAMBlA will be pushing to lower that age, natch.

I'm not surprised you are willing to criminalize sexual conduct between a 16 yr old and his 17 yr old gf when the age of consent is 17. That is the essence of what these romeo and juliet laws are designed to protect. I'd bet you'd be all for criminalizing gay sex and perhaps even all sex outside of a marriage. Am I right?

Yes, Lava, the USA was built on a Christian foundation and, if the rest of the building followed the blueprint we'd not have so much crime and misery and debt and ignorance as we do now.

Which parts of our nation's foundation were christian influenced and which parts weren't? Let me guess, everything good america has done was christian influenced and everything bad was influenced by atheists/darwinists/gays/socialists/communists/fascists/...

Lava, your comments are not from a perspective of an historian. You have strong opinions and little information. As I said, the country was formed to have a strong foundations based on the Biblical code of morality, a modest central government designed primarily to secure the borders, facilitate trade and to be in charge of national security. Most laws were to be in the hands of states.

Your view of history is so limited because you do not understand the governments that the Founders left behind nor their intent when founding this new nation. You think as if a strong Federal government was intended and that society was ready for a radical rewriting of the social mores of the time.

States began developing their own laws, individual communities forming their own schools and slowly new ideas pushed by individuals gained popularity and there was a slow and gradual change towards a fantastic society much as Madison and Jefferson and cohorts dreamed.

Individuals pushed for the end of class systems that were left over from European society...where royals and gentlefolks and commoners and serfs all had different lots in life. From only male property owners being able to vote it became adult males and then adult females. Slavery was beginning to be outlawed due to Christian influences.

But big government stepped in and began taking control of society. Lava seems to be unaware of this process and has no clue how the laws of the land began to slip from the hands of states and become the balliwick of the Feds. Therefore the common morality and the state of the common man has become less moral and less free due to the tyranny of the collective.

People need to wake up and see that the local and State governments have lost rights and that Washington is the least effective and most idiotic set of screwups to point at a problem. We need to vote out lovers of central government and get back to the USA that was meant to be.

If we had fewer Lavas who do not know history, we would have fewer uninformed voters who vote to cause their own problems.

"maybe I study history and spend more than going through Cliff's Notes on the subject?"

Your apparent high opinion of your own knowledge and intellect is rarely backed up by the actual verbiage you produce on your blog.

Problem is that you just read a different set of Cliff's Notes, a set that lines up with your desired conclusion. Unfortunately you can't back up your claims with facts, which is why you are stuck with evasions and name-calling whenever anyone probes a little deeper.

So which part of Galileo's conflict with the church do you disagree with, and based on what sources?

Why should I write a thesis paper on Galileo for you? If you study the subject you will find that men like Copernicus did the heavy lifting and Galileo was actually oversold as a great change agent whereas he actually caused trouble for himself.

You may start here: http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/galileos-vain-ambition/

Also anyone with a casual knowledge of the founding of the United States knows the Bible and Blackstone were the two most used and cited sources for the writings they published and of course the Constitution.

Nobody asked you to write a thesis paper on Galileo. You dismissed a summary of Galileo's conflict with the church over heliocentrism out of hand without providing anything to back that up. (This seems to be a recurring theme with you: You make a dubious claim, and when you are called to back it up with facts, you inevitably fail to present facts and instead resort to conspiracy theories and evasions and distractions. Quite a number of your recent blog posts feature exchanges of this sort.)

The link you posted is somewhat beside the point, as it makes no mention of the conflict with the church at all. The subject, if you'll recall, was your claim that "the courts", not the church tried to stop heliocentrism.

Do you disagree that the church threatened Galileo with torture, that the Inquisition found Galileo "vehemently suspect of heresy" and sentenced him to formal imprisonment (subsequently commuted to house arrest) and banned his book?

If so, based on what sources?

And lest we forget - you still can't think of any real-time lab experiments and studies that have shown Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true, can you? I predict you can't, and I find that prediction confirmed every day.

Galileso - that blog link goes to BUY THE TRUTH blog, where the entire story of Galileo and Copernicus is discussed. All you have to do is follow the discussion on that blog. If you have any research skills at all then you will have your answer.

I gave you several links for intelligent design sites and I would recommend books but you are not likely to buy them, so I gave you free information.d Again, it falls to you to do the research and so far it appears you are unwilling to do it and I am certainly not doing it for you. I have led the horse to water, drink or drink not.

Nonsense. Neither of the sites has the sources or information you claim. This is simply an attempt to distract and divert.

If you knew of a single real-time lab experiment or study that confirmed ID, you would be able to state that here in this comment thread. It would take you less than five minutes. Instead it becomes clear that your earlier claim is simply not true.

The BUY THE TRUTH blog has no sources that deny that the church threatened Galileo with torture, that the Inquisition found Galileo "vehemently suspect of heresy" and sentenced him to formal imprisonment (subsequently commuted to house arrest) and banned his book. It goes into other (related) subjects, but not that one.

Thanks for playing. Two arguments lost in a single comment thread, good going.

Two arguments WON in the same thread because you are either too lazy to follow the links or think no one else will so you can proclaim victory. You, sir, cannot think clearly or you prefer not to try.

Whether Galileo was imprisoned and censured and threatened is not the main point of the story. Copernicus was the man who began the turn of the screw and caused the world to acknowledge a Heliocentric Solar System. Galileo caused much of his own trouble and those who research this will see it for themselves. Also, those who research (obviously not your strong suit) will find that the royals, elitists and church were one common ruling class and worked together.

The Galileo myth is spread so that people can pretend the church was anti-science. In fact, virtually all of the early scientists were priests and it was clerics who both founded science as we know it and started the Reformation, which freed the serfs from their bondage by breaking the hold of the royal/elite/church tyranny through education and outright rebellion against unjust tyranny.

It is almost as silly as the Columbus myth that Washington Irving invented that supposed that the world thought the Earth was flat when Columbus sailed away looking for a direct way to the Orient and India.

The fact is that Eratosthenes had computed the circumference of the Earth hundreds of years prior to that (around 200 BC) and there would be almost no one who thought the Earth was flat anywhere in any civilized society. Mankind knew the Earth was round, the Bible states that the Earth is round, it is a Darwinist myth used to try to indoctrinate students. So also is the Galileo myth. It is Copernicus who deserves credit for the Heliocentric model IMO and Galileo was foolish...but the penalties he faced were overstated anyway. He was censured but escaped real harm. Read this link, all who are willing to actually do any research at all, and then consider studying the case for yourself.

"Two arguments WON in the same thread because you are either too lazy to follow the links or think no one else will so you can proclaim victory."

Wrong. I did follow both links. They did not feature:

1. Real-time lab experiments and studies that have shown Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true.

2. Evidence contradicting the fact that the church threatened Galileo with torture, that the Inquisition found Galileo "vehemently suspect of heresy" and sentenced him to formal imprisonment (subsequently commuted to house arrest) and banned his book.

And since you still refuse to directly provide these to back up your own claims, you've abandoned and lost both arguments.

"Whether Galileo was imprisoned and censured and threatened is not the main point of the story"

The main point under discussion was whether the courts or the church stood in the way of heliocentrism. It certainly isn't about whether Copernicus is getting sufficient credit for heliocentrism. Nobody (not even Wikipedia, if you had bothered to look) claimed that Galileo originated the idea of heliocentrism. All sources I have seen agree that Galileo was one of the later proponents of it.

However, the known facts indicate that the church was severely opposed to heliocentrism on biblical grounds (as it happens to contradict the literal interpretation of some Bible passages) and that members of the church did what it could to stop Galileo's efforts.

We also shouldn't let your diversions make us lose sight of the fact that the church also confronted Copernicus.

"those who research (obviously not your strong suit) will find that the royals, elitists and church were one common ruling class and worked together"

And still you claim that the church did not oppose heliocentrism?

Sorry, you still haven't come up with any facts to back up the two claims above, only attempts to change the subject. That doesn't amount to winning any arguments.

So you did NOT read the full story of Copernicus and Galileo. So for the others who read this (since this anonymous guy will not), the church and state were synonymous at that time and the Pope did not cause Galileo to be punished for pushing heliocentricism, he punished him for insulting the Pope with sarcasm. In fact, Galileo kept reversing his position and sought credit for his own ideas about how to determine heliocentricism versus geocentricism. In fact Galileo denied Ptolemaic and Copernican views after supporting both viewpoints. He was a trouble-making arrogant mess!

Michael Behe published papers on the inability for any organism to pass on more than two "beneficial" gene change to the next generation. Meyer published a couple of papers on CSI that Darwinists cannot answer or refute. In fact, several documents are easily found that contain scientific facts and experimental data from the links I provided. Lazy people pretend it is not so.

Behe's assertions in Darwin's Black Box have been attacked vigorously and stupidly, first by attacking his analogies rather than the actual systems represented, and second by trying to label ID as creationism in disguise. Both methods impress people with no scientific background or those who are thoroughly propagandized.

Again, Kirshner and Gerhart published the papers that gave rise to Alex William's series on Genetic Redundancy and Facilitated Variation, and while K & G did slap a Darwin nameplate on their work, it actually supports Creationism and ID.

If you want to tell yourself you win, go ahead. Lots of people fool themselves and go on about their day. But do you really think that critical thinkers will agree with you? Not if they access the links I provided and do their research. They will say, as do I, that you are a humbug.

Derision doesn't win arguments. You haven't brought any facts to the table to back up your previous claims.

"So for the others who read this (since this anonymous guy will not), the church and state were synonymous at that time"

So when you said that the "Courts could not stop a Heliocentric Solar System from being true", what you actually meant was "the Courts (which were the same thing as the church at the time) could not stop a Heliocentric Solar System from being true". Which would mean that you basically already concede that the church opposed heliocentrism. It appears you were either confused or deceptive on this point. If a court is made up of cardinals, we would call that "the church".

"the Pope did not cause Galileo to be punished for pushing heliocentricism, he punished him for insulting the Pope with sarcasm"

Sarcasm, is it? The Pope certainly took a dim view of Galileo ridiculing him, and so Galileo lost himself a potential ally in the proceedings. However, the punishment was not for sarcasm, as the documents clearly reflect, and it didn't just involve the Pope, as you should know.

after the reporting of the judgment […] against the propositions of the mathematician Galileo (to the effect that the sun stand still at the center of the world and the earth moves even with the diurnal motion), His Holiness ordered the most Illustrious Lord Cardinal Bellarmine to call Galileo before himself and warn him to abandon these opinions

if he should not acquiesce, he is to be imprisoned

This Holy Congregation has also learned about the spreading and acceptance by many of the false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture, that the earth moves and the sun is motionless, which is also taught by Nicholaus Copernicus's On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres and by Diego de Zuniga's On Job

Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzio Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were denounced to this Holy Office in 1615 for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world and motionless and the earth moves even with diurnal motion;

And whereas this Holy Tribunal wanted remedy the disorder and the harm which derived from it and which was growing to the detriment of the Holy Faith, by order of His Holiness and the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Lord Cardinals of this Supreme and Univesal Inquisition, the Assessor Theologians assessed the two propositions of the sun's stability and the earth's motions as follows:

That the sun is the center of the world and motionless is a proposition which is philosophically absurd and false, and formally heretical, for being explicitly contrary to Holy Scripture;

That the earth is neither the center of the world nor motionless but moves even with diurnal motion is philosophically equally absurd and false, and theologically at least erroneous in the Faith.

in order to completely eliminate such a pernicious doctrine, and not let it creep any further to the great detriment of Catholic truth, the Holy Congregation of the Index issued a decree which prohibited books treating of such a doctrine and declared it false and wholly contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture

We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the above-mentioned Galileo, because of the things deduced in the trial and confessed by you as above, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctrine which is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and the earth moves and is not the center of the world, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. Consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated by the sacred canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents. We are willing to absolve you from them provided that first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, in front of us you abjure, curse, and detest the above-mentioned errors and heresies, and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, in the manner and form we will prescribe to you

And yet, Radar, you still try to make readers believe that the church did not oppose heliocentrism.

"Michael Behe published papers on the inability for any organism to pass on more than two "beneficial" gene change to the next generation. Meyer published a couple of papers on CSI that Darwinists cannot answer or refute. In fact, several documents are easily found that contain scientific facts and experimental data from the links I provided. Lazy people pretend it is not so."

Not even a good dodge. Documents that "contain scientific facts and experimental data" are not really the same as "real-time lab experiments and studies that have shown Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true", are they?

"Behe's assertions in Darwin's Black Box have been attacked vigorously and stupidly, first by attacking his analogies rather than the actual systems represented, and second by trying to label ID as creationism in disguise. Both methods impress people with no scientific background or those who are thoroughly propagandized.

Again, Kirshner and Gerhart published the papers that gave rise to Alex William's series on Genetic Redundancy and Facilitated Variation, and while K & G did slap a Darwin nameplate on their work, it actually supports Creationism and ID."

You apparently are fond of a logical fallacy called the false dichotomy. In this case, you (mistakenly) believe that if something should disprove the theory of evolution (which none of the papers you mention here actually do, btw), then it would ipso facto be proof of ID. Unfortunately that is not the case. It is entirely possible that both the theory of evolution and ID are wrong and there is a third explanation, and so if the theory of evolution were ever refuted, that would not by itself automatically be proof of ID.

There's no sign here of the real-time lab experiments and studies that have shown Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true. Trying to cast doubt on the theory of evolution is not the same as showing ID to be demonstrably true.

"If you want to tell yourself you win, go ahead. Lots of people fool themselves and go on about their day. But do you really think that critical thinkers will agree with you? Not if they access the links I provided and do their research. They will say, as do I, that you are a humbug."

You've done nothing here to win the argument, merely tried to point in different directions to distract from your lack of facts to back up your claims, as any "critical thinker" can see in the course of the above comment thread.

This commenter above did not read all the posts nor did he do any additional research. He did poach some portions of the text and present them out of context.

I suggest the wise reader go to the resources I suggested and check for yourself. Furthermore, a good education in the history of Western Europe for the time period would be worthwhile. Didn't take five and one half years of college (not counting tech schools) for the math classes...

IF you know the time period, then you know the royals, the elites and the church were the ruling class and the connections between them were incestuous,sometimes literally. Real Christians were sprinkled throughout the church (otherwise we would have no Robert Grosstestes or Martin Luthers) but many of the genuine Christians did not take part in the official church and therefore were often the focus of the Inquisition for the "crime" of owning Bibles or refusing to kowtow to the royal/churh/elite paradigm.

Priests of the church and "illegal" Christians did more to bring about the Reformation and therefore freedom for the common man than all the elites with their self-focused Renaissance ever accomplished. I will give credit to brilliant minds like Da Vinci, but too bad that some commenters do not know much about their subject and make themselves look intentionally misleading. Is it from ignorance or an attempt to hoodwink others?

There are multiple definitions for the "church." The church as defined by Jesus Christ is the body of believers in salvation by the Blood of Christ. There was the church-state, which was more ruling body than spiritually focused organization and the ruling paradigm of royals and church opposed Heliocentricism and a lot of other things (such as ending "indulgences" and prayers to saints rather than God and the "right" of high priests and rulers to deflower virgins of their choosing).

Galileo got in trouble with some bigwigs and it was mostly his own fault. People like Copernicus and Kepler, Christians, led the way for the REAL church to establish sciences and break the hold on the common man from the yoke of the church-state.

As to Intelligent Design, only fools would deny (using fake fallacies) that design has been proven by unveiling not only the massive amounts of information and programming that organisms contain but also the superior algorithms and designs of organisms that mankind copies. A Higher Mind made the Universe and all of creation and fools deny it.

False fallacies like the argument from ignorance and the argument from incredulity are what frauds like Darwinists use to shield themselves from the truth.

Organisms cannot come from the natural world. The Law of Biogenesis still stands.

Organisms by natural means cannot improve their designs or features. The Laws of Thermodynamics still stand.

Information does not come from natural causes. The Laws of Information still stand.

You may be a fool (because you refuse to believe in God despite the evidence all around you) but you do not have to be a deceptive one. For the last time, you are ignorant of history and completely hoodwinked in matters of science. Another propagandized person heading to Hell obliviously believing himself well-informed. But some fools come to their senses and I do hope this happens for you. Every time you make a comment you reveal yourself as a propagandized unthinking product of bad schools, an example of why the public school system and typical universities are cranking out people who do not understand how to think.

I do not wish to be so ad hominem, you really give me no other recourse, because you use bad arguments and reveal how you "think" within your comments. You never consider for one moment that you might be wrong. This is where you and I differ. I am where I am philosophically because I am willing to be wrong and I have been wrong and have sought to correct it. Go and do likewise!

No need to apologize for "being so ad hominem", as you mostly resort to other logical fallacies. In this case, the "No true Scotsman" fallacy looms large. Google it sometime.

So the Catholic Church, which is most certainly a very large and central part of Christianity, made it clear in writing in numerous instances that it opposed heliocentrism, considered it blasphemy, formally heretical etc. That has been clearly demonstrated in this thread.

Your response? The Catholic Church and its Cardinals are not actually Christian.

If you studied the history of the Catholic Church, which you likely have not, you would know that there was a time when it was a disaster - popes that raped women, one pope who secretly WAS a woman, popes who seemed to have learned how to behave from the Borgias? Tell me that the Holy Roman Empire was NOT full of miscreants, tell me that the European royalty was NOT a bunch of bullies who assumed that they were given the throne by the will of God? You do understand that the organization that is now the Catholic Church murdered people, tortured people, denied the Bible be given to any but priests and royals and shook down the common man at every turn?

The "no true Scotsman" argument is another resort for those who will not deal with reasoning. IF YOU KNEW HISTORY (manifestly apparent that you do NOT) you would realize that the church/state/elitist rulers of the time were monolithic tyrants.

After the Reformation, when the various Christian Protestant churches broke the rule of tyrants, the changes also had a ripple effect that did change the now-Catholic Church dramatically. There is no comparison to the church/state of the days of Galileo and the Catholic Church now, other than the fact that the Catholic Church has LOTS of money still. Popes are not raping virgins and Cardinals are not (to my knowledge) shaking down peasants for their last pennies. There was a problem with homosexual predators becoming priests and that is a sad and shameful part of the history, but this Catholic Church of the 21st Century is nothing like the church/state of 1500 AD.

Now I am quite sure that plenty of Catholics are Christians and there are plenty who depend on the rituals instead of faith and they are in trouble. Only God knows the human heart. The cliche that I have Catholic friends who I am sure are Christians happens to be true. Also it is statistically certain that quite a few folks who attend my church are not actually Christians, they just go to church.

Commenter, God knows your heart as well. Heck, I know you know very little about history because you have revealed this in the comments thread. I know you are too lazy to research the ID sites to comprehend the ID argument and you will hold fast to the folly of Darwinism. But for crying out loud, do a little research before you speak to European history, willya? Good grief! If you cannot be bothered to research ID then do not pretend to speak with authority about it.

I've read reams of books and technical papers and journal entries and even spoken and has correspondence with ID and Creation scientists. They are almost always barred from secular peer reviews but their research is proving to be invaluable and true. Darwinism is a house of cards and it cannot last. Like the Iron Curtain, it looks invincible but on the inside their is panic. The science is not on your side.

By definition, all of them are. Once you start arguing against that, you are in "No true Scotsmsn" territory.

Your constant insinuations of my supposed ignorance of the history of Christianity are entirely unwarranted, as I'm quite familiar with it, and I have not given you any indication to the contrary if you'll actually look at what I wrote above.

I just disagree with your premise that because the Roman Catholic Church did not behave to your liking and was more powerful politically etc., it should somehow not be "the church". Of course it is, and it did oppose heliocentrism. There is simply no way to deny that.

"I've read reams of books and technical papers and journal entries and even spoken and has correspondence with ID and Creation scientists."

And you still can't name a single real-time lab experiment or study that shows Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true. No need to hide behind the conspiracy theory, I didn't even ask for a peer-reviewed one.

I suspect that you are simply confused as to what a "real-time lab experiment or study that shows Intelligent Design to be demonstrably true" would even look like. To you, any demonstration of complexity would probably automatically suffice.

I'll put aside your earlier claim then. Of course there is no such thing, and all you were referring to the usual wishy-washy claims and arguments that require one to dismiss the very existence of logical fallacies (a case of special pleading unto itself) in order to pay them any heed.

I am blown away by your superior intellect and remarkable logic. Of course the church/state of the time was PRECISELY like the Catholic Church of today, of course the Reformation was not of consequence, of course there were not real Christians being persecuted by this church/state...there was no Torquemada and no Spanish Inquisition, there were not any priests establishing branches of science while the establishment held on like mad to Ptolemaic/Aristotolean thought.

Of course the myriad experiments revealing the complexity of organisms, the inner workings of the cell, the irreducible complexity of systems, the usefulness of so-called "junk" DNA and the discovery of meta-information within the cell have no meaning, nor does the experiments done by Behe have any meaning because if you have not read them or heard of them, they are of ho consequence because you are the sum of wisdom and knowledge.

How silly of me to think otherwise. Go now and be self-satisfied :-) and you may have that smiley face to keep as well.

Again, your evasions and repetitions of logical fallacies are pointless and don't present any relevant counter-arguments at this point.

1. Nobody claimed the Roman Catholic Church of that time was precisely the same as today's Roman Catholic Church. But it was undeniably "the church", both historically and in the sense that it consisted of Christians, people who believed in God and Jesus as their savior and who believed they would go to heaven etc. You may not like their "brand" of Christianity, but that doesn't make them "not Christians".

And the church of that time most certainly opposed heliocentrism.

Why you need to place your own personal pride ahead of accepting this as a simple historical fact (that you don't need to take personally) is baffling to me.

2. Of course the myriad experiments revealing the complexity of organisms, the inner workings of the cell, the irreducible complexity of systems, the usefulness of so-called "junk" DNA and the discovery of meta-information within the cell have no meaning, nor does the experiments done by Behe have any meaning because if you have not read them or heard of them, they are of ho consequence because you are the sum of wisdom and knowledge."

They are of no consequence not because I am the sum of wisdom and knowledge (derision doesn't win you any arguments, btw, and it seems you are now stuck on this as a last resort); they are of no consequence because they are logically unsound, for several reasons (generally that they are used in logically fallacious contexts) that have been previously explained.

In order for a lab experiment or study to confirm ID, you would have to have a falsifiable prediction that would yield one result if ID were true and another if it were not, and the result of the experiment or study would then yield the result that confirms ID. And this has never been achieved (certainly not in any of the cases you mention here), which is why you can't pull one out of your hat now.

Valiant work, anony. For the record, Radar has on this blog admitted that he has "pride" issues. So he knows he has a problem. Now if he would just move to stage 2 of the process...

He also has claimed that he is not religious. So he's clearly pretty confused when it comes to topics like this one.

It is just so laughable to me that Radar and climate change denying YECs like him actually think of themselves as "critical thinkers". How could you be a "critical thinker" when you have demonstrated time and time again that you don't even understand the first thing about evolution. Or how about the fact that you admit that you start with the bible as your "truth" and work your way back from there? So much delusion and cognitive dissonance, it's a wonder your head doesn't explode, Radar. Although while we're throwing around psychological terms, I feel that Radar is probably the best example of the Dunning Kruger Effect in existence today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Although at this point I'm sure that Radar feels that this wiki entry, like the ones about logical fallacies, is just made up by us "neo-darwinists" in an effort to make YECs look bad.

Oh and, one more time, ID is creationism repackaged and was proved to be such in a US court because the ID guys weren't even smart enough to change the copy when they cut and pasted it from the creationist "textbook" to the "new" ID one. They also apparently lied their faces off while on the stand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_trial#Allegations_of_perjury

That said, after being witness to this blog for so many years, it's really not surprising that they would stoop to deception in order to preserve their worldview.

No, I think that Darwinism is completely idiotic. There is not a shred of real evidence to support it and yet society has swallowed it whole.

I also think that the world of Wikipedia and people who take it seriously are the same ones who think CBS and the Associated Press are neutral news sources and that the economy is still Bush's fault years after he left and Obama began tearing the economy to bits. I suspect you also think that Congress WILL be subject to the rules of Obamacare.

Your primary mistake is thinking that I have pride issues, since I am not pretending to be a ID or creation scientist, but rather present the evidence that scientists have offered to the public. I don't actually care what a Canucklehead thinks about me at all. My goal is to try to inform people and free them from ignorance.

Since Darwinism is completely and insanely ignorant, then people who defend it have already revealed themselves to be hopelessly gullible or intentionally evil. Some of the most intelligent people in the world are also quite gullible. IQ does not come with common sense included, so many brilliant minds have been incredibly gullible and completely fooled.

It is assumptions that are not audited for accuracy that get you in trouble. That anonymous commenter kept saying things that showed him to be less and less worth answering as he simply repeats the mythology of European history now being taught to high schoolers. If he actually studied European history, he would not say so many ridiculous things. He really has no clue about church history, what the church actually is, the reason the church/state wound up being the Holy Roman Empire and the subsequent events that led to all of Europe being ruled by basically one family that had intermarried and yet hilariously would go to war against their cousin or grandmother or brother-in-law and cause millions of people to die in the process.

Did you know WWI was primarily a family squabble that got out of control? Did you know more people died of illness than bullets and bombs during that war? Did you know that royals who were certain that God had put them on thrones caused the war and also, because of their certainty that God was on their side, they ignored the warning signs of unhappy citizens until revolution swept through Russia.

Did you know that the German people resented the terms of the Armistice and the resentment made way for Hitler and his Nazi Fascists (Socialists, by the way) to use that resentment to build a mighty war machine that, with the help of Japan and Italy would have conquered Europe but for Hitler's idiotic attack on his defacto ally and try to fight Russia as well as wage war against the Allies. We used Russia to help us take out Germany but we also gave away half of Europe to tyranny in the process. We also allowed Soviet agents to infiltrate our government and made Joe McCarthy into a villain when in fact he was right and documents released after the required time have begun to reveal this.

We now have a government that becomes more Socialist by the minute and we see our freedoms begin eroded and morality turned upside down. I blame Darwinism for a great deal of the problem...Darwinism gave legitimacy to racism and for that matter tyranny and certainly has been a huge drain on scientific resources.

We have a nation of brainwashed masses who believe in absolute garbage. Mark Armitage, a professor of Biology in the California State College system, has been fired, evidently for the publication of his findings from an experiment. The problem isn’t with the factual nature of the findings or even with a favorable peer review (I understand he has had one), but with the fact that his conclusions are not in accord with the dogma of the Church of the Theory of Evolution. I believe he is contesting this mess, but again I am left wondering what it is about the religion of Evolution (often an adjunct of the religion of Atheism) that makes it so determined that no opposing view may ever be heard or must be discredited if it leaks out. I am not at all ashamed of my faith, but then again, I’m not hiding anything. What is the Church of Evolution hiding? That there is nothing to hide. Evolution/Darwinism is complete and utter nonsense. It is beyond stupid to the point of evil, which is why it requires censors and blackballing people who do not agree with the majority.

In fact, Darwinism is exactly like the church/state that resorted to Torquemada and the torture and death of opponents. These days Darwinists kill careers rather than people, but otherwise their idiocy and need to be secretive is at least a paranoid as the East German Secret Police and for at least as good a reason. The Iron Curtain kept people IN because people wanted to escape tyranny and idiocy. The Darwinist Paradigm keeps ideas and information OUT because they fear being exposed as unscientific frauds.

You guys do not threaten my "pride" because you are so incredibly wrong that it is laughable. I am telling you the truth - Darwinism is pure idiocy and anyone who adheres to it is being fooled. If you are fooled, I am sorry about that but I keep trying to wake you up. But you are light years away from having a clue about what is actually true about life and the meaning thereof, let alone science or history. You have been fed a pack of lies. When you present them to me in the comments thread, hey, I try to point you in the right direction but you have very hard heads.

If you deny Christ and God you will end up in Hell after this very short temporary life is over. I will not be happy to see you cast aside. If calling you an idiot brings you to your senses, then I have done a good thing. But only God can convince you of the Truth and you can only hear Him if you are willing to hear and willing to be wrong.

As for climate change, really? Since the percentage of carbon dioxide in the air is too small to really change the temperature AND it is plant food AND the climate has not been warming for 17 years now AND the so-called science behind AGW was based on faked data and a fake graph produced by Michael Mann, the famous "Hockey Stick" graph that was complete nonsense...you want to believe in THAT as well? Did you know that the percentage of carbon in the atmosphere actually follows rather than precedes rises in temperatures? Did you know that previous times of warmer temperatures were prosperous times for mankind? Do some freaking research instead of just regurgitating propaganda, please.

Al Gore, whose carbon footprint makes Shaq look like a midget, set himself up to make millions of dollars from carbon offset schemes. It was all a money scam. Back in the 1970's, the scientists were warning of an ice age to come.

Of course, the same people who believe in Darwinism believe in AGW as well. You probably all love Obama also? Have you noticed that cities are now beginning to become bankrupt and they are all cities ruled by Democratic Machines with a Socialist mindset and a tendency to rip off the public at the same time. If we could pick up the big cities ruled by Democratic Machines and move them to Canada, the USA would soon be prosperous again as normal people with traditional values who believe in freedom and capitalism would be in charge. But Canada would sure go downhill fast!

Victor Davis Hanson's recent post reveals the worst Presidencies in our history in his opinion. Bottom line is that there have been at least four administrations that have been a mess (I would add a fifth, that of FDR and a sixth, the nasty racist Woodrow Wilson). He lists Grant, Carter, Clinton and Obama.

I don’t know too much about Grant’s as I wasn’t around then, but he was a military man with an alcohol problem and probably not suited to the Presidency at all. He basically looked the other way as havoc reigned in the post-war South.

Carter was a nasty combination of ignorance and ineptitude coupled with a rather massive ego, a good bit of arrogance and a bitter streak not far below the surface. He was afraid of attack rabbits as well and has become a classic Dhimmi in his old age.

Clinton? Well, he seems to have had other pursuits on his mind that distracted him from Presidential duties. I think his wife was the ruthless one, while Bill was just a people person who lied as easily as he breathed and was more interested in sex than pretty much anything else. A brilliant politician, though.

Our current President is another story that you can tell as well as I. Hanson’s main point was that we as a nation have already survived three disasters without much lasting damage being done, and we will likely do the same with this present disaster. Again, I don’t know enough about Grant to comment, but Carter left us with an incredible mess, and I think we are still struggling with at least a few of the consequences of his Presidency. I think Clinton’s other interests kept him from doing too much harm (or from doing much good for the country either - maybe the most over-rated President ever?).

President Obama? I think there are some things that will never be cleared up, and the rest of the mess (assuming that Obamacare is killed by its own over-kill) will take several decades to get completely cleared up. He has paid untold amounts of money to teams of lawyers to keep his personal history sealed. We do not know for sure that he is a natural-born American, how he got through school and got into Harvard without the intellect to belong. He was made editor of the Law Review in part so he didn't have to write much himself and, when he published books, they were authored by Bill Ayers. While he has helped murder Americans via Benghazi and Fast and Furious and pushed hard to make us the most racist country we have been since Wilson segregated the military, allowed for Jim Crow laws and supported Eugenics, he has been lionized by the idiotic lamestream media for no good reason. He is destroying the medical system and the economy, can't you people think? How long can he blame Bush for his own ineptitude and intentional acts intended to turn us into the new Soviet Union?

I detest the “race baiting” currently so popular in politics and the media. I also resent the narrative that says Republicans have a two hundred year history of mistreatment of Blacks - somebody has forgotten some important facts: Lincoln and ML King were Republicans; Bull Connor, George Wallace, Woodrow Wilson, Robert Byrd and many others that all of us would call racists were Democrats. Dwight Eisenhower, who signed long-overdue legislation, was also a Republican. Generally speaking, the opponents of the Black genocide involved in “abortion-on-demand” are also Republicans. Democrats have worked hard to destroy the family unit, particularly within families of color. LBJ's Great Society was designed to throw the father out of the family and encourage poor women to NOT marry but have children anyway.

Now heterosexual white people are the new minority group that is constantly being harassed and mistreated, particularly if they are Christians. If Christians actually believe the Bible they will soon find themselves being accused of thought crimes. Big Brother is getting bigger and tyranny is stretching its muscles.

Back in the Middle Ages, the church/state/royals ruled and had the power. Individual priests led the fight to free minds from the chains of tyranny by seeking to give the common man the ability to read, to give him the Bible so he could see for himself what was right and wrong, to stop the evils of the ruling class and start the actual sciences themselves. It is fair to say that science was largely dead and men like Bacon and Grossteste and Kelvin and Kepler and Copernicus brought it back to life. It is fair to say that the State was tyrannical but the Reformation eventually led to free societies and it was Christians and Theists who invented science and formed the United States.

Today it is the Socialists and the Darwinists who are bringing about a new tyranny in which both the actions and the thoughts of a man are subject to scrutiny and attack. Only by revealing the absolute idiocy of both Darwinism and Socialism (and AGW for good measure) can the USA escape the fate of great nations that have come before.

The USA is the greatest nation ever to exist on this planet. We had a government that was built on Christian principles and intended to give all people a chance to be free and build their dreams. Far too many of us have exchanged freedom for a government check and have abandoned critical thinking, instead just memorizing what we are told and spitting it back out on tests. Then we get our degree and maybe get a job...maybe.

Real unemployment is about 10.7% and it is NOT getting better. If Obamacare does get implemented, the full-time employee will be much scarcer as employers will specialize in part-time workers to avoid the healthcare costs. Already medical care in this nation is 20 to 50% more expensive as bureaucracy has increased and private clinics have been forced to join cooperatives because of the government mandates. Of course, Congress and the Executive branch are exempt from Obamacare...they are not stupid enough to be subject to such nonsense themselves.

My, that's quite a rant there, Radar. Is there anything you didn't cover?

I suspect that your pride is closely linked to strong feelings of insecurity/inadequacy. Why else would you start rattling off random bits of knowledge of history that may seem to be advanced and perhaps esoteric knowledge to you, but that most of us of course already know?

It's been demonstrated more than clearly that the church opposed heliocentrism - repeatedly citing that heliocentrism contradicts a literal interpretation of Bible passages, no less - and no amount of attempted "the church wasn't really the church" prestidigitation is going to undo that. Consider the church's opposition to heliocentrism a historical fact and stop embarrassing yourself by claiming black is white and up is down.

On a related matter: "I also resent the narrative that says Republicans have a two hundred year history of mistreatment of Blacks"

I'm not familiar with that narrative. The current perception is that white racists used to be predominantly in the Democratic party, and that Republicans didn't become the party to attract white racists until they adopted the Southern strategy in the 1960s. I don't know of anybody who would currently claim that that was the case as long as 200 years ago.

You are the guy whose views are upside down...for instance, the Democrats are still using black voters while making sure the system is in place to keep the black family broken. Democrats have hoodwinked the black masses with the media's help. When a black man or woman reveals themselves to be conservative the cries of "Uncle Tom" rain down. Meanwhile Planned Parenthood facilities are located near minority population centers and they kill a disproportionate percentage of minority babies.

As to history, I just wanted normal people to think about how ridiculous your views really are and perhaps get a few to look into actual history. Kids in school get such a dumbed-down slanted view of history it frankly hurts...the old saw that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it? We see it happening in the USA now. Why would ANYONE with a brain vote for the Obamites who are ruining the economy, growing government and debt and promoting racial hatreds? We re-elected him with the help of massive voter fraud. This is why the Democrats fight voter ID laws...they will have a harder time getting felons and dead people and fake people to vote if they have to show ID at the polls.

You think I have a pride problem and I think you are an idiot. That kind of sums it up. :-)

"the Obamites who are ruining the economy, growing government and debt and promoting racial hatreds"

Or for this, for that matter? Recall that the economy was in the toilet when Bush exited stage left (losing over half a million jobs a month), and that Obama has been improving it ever since. Government jobs have been slashed and the federal budget deficit is decreasing rapidly. If you had any capacity to think objectively (or if a Republican occupied the Oval Office), you would say these are good things.

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. It can be due to being young and not having had much time to learn, it could be for lack of learning capacity, or it could be because the person is not interested in learning. It can also be a result of being propagandized and never questioning what you have been taught.

Stupidity is a refusal to learn, a resistance to information that is disturbing to you or even a deliberate refusal to accept information that threatens your worldview. I thought that if I simply admitted that Darwinist commenters are, in my opinion, stupid, that they would be satisfied and go away. For those who will not learn there is no good reason to expend effort.

So I will be starting the Noahic Flood series today and will only monitor this comments thread to delete profanity. So in a minute I will put an end to my side of this...

First, the idiot never read the resources I gave him and I know this by his responses. So he is a great idiot indeed. Any junior high student could have done the research by reading the entire series on Galileo and realized that the Galileo myth is just that, a myth. Galileo got himself in trouble and yet it was primarily to teach him a lesson for being sarcastic and argumentative with the powers that be. But he (the commenter) is too lazy to research and why should I do his work for him? Let him be self-satisfied, why not? He would never want to know actual truth.

Only an idiot could fail to see that the Obama Administration has ruined the economy and has committed atrocities (Fast and Furious and Benghazi and the leaking of the identity of Seal Team Six, for instance) that has led to the death of dozens of Americans. Obama is perhaps the most evil man of the 21st Century.

His administration is fighting voter ID laws in court, because Democrats will have more trouble piling up fraudulent votes if voters have to show IDs. I did a statistical analysis of the voting records in Lake County, Indiana in the Gary districts for the 2010 elections:

Someone got smart and began putting one or two Republican votes (usually just one) in beginning in 2010 in some precincts so they will not be investigated? The following districts showed one or two Republican votes out of their entire precincts:111121126127136137138139140141144149151153155161162163164168171172173179188191194196198199204212213214216217222223228239249250267

This kind of pattern is found in the cities run by Democratic Machines...and those same cities are going bankrupt. Gee, wonder why?

Of course, the Darwinist commenters that believe in evolution, which is statistically, chemically and in may other ways impossible will be eager to believe that entire precincts in Gary, Indiana will place every single possible vote (or even a couple more than the listed voters for the precinct and yes, that has happened) for Democrats and not even one Republican vote will be placed. They will also be glad to know that we found voters whose home addresses were vacant lots, or complete fakes...as well as people who were imported from Illinois and of course the famous dead voters.

The Gary and East Chicago precincts run by the Democratic Machine in Lake County also report later than other precincts so they know how many votes they have to put in to win the local elections.

If you cared to research, the pattern of late reporting districts from inner city precincts that yield spectacular Democratic vote totals is not limited to Gary and East Chicago. This is typical of all such cities in the Midwest and East. I have not studied East St. Louis or places farther West, but Chicago and other rust belt cities share these kinds of totals. I would suggest that you do research, but I have seen what happens when I do that. You guys do not want to know the truth, you want to perpetuate your mythology. You know it and I know it and hopefully you do not fool anyone impressionable.

"Or for this, for that matter? Recall that the economy was in the toilet when Bush exited stage left (losing over half a million jobs a month), and that Obama has been improving it ever since. Government jobs have been slashed and the federal budget deficit is decreasing rapidly. If you had any capacity to think objectively (or if a Republican occupied the Oval Office), you would say these are good things."

Could you pass a drug test? The deficit is increasing rapidly, unemployment is a BIG problem, the Federal Government is growing, not shrinking. You live in a fantasy world!!! You are one of those guys who STILL blames Bush for Obama's transgressions?

I work with businesses and also state and local governments...all over the nation the budgets are stressed. Especially in the Democratic states the budgets are not sufficient for the needs. Lots of companies are shrinking and sadly a few of my clients have gone out of business as well. So often a client who had 70 nodes the year before has 40 this time. On occasion I have reached one person who is handling the details and the phone for a company that is closing its doors. Very sad.

I try to help clients by suggesting virtualization so that fewer physical machines have to use power and cooling resources and thereby save clients money. There are also ways to do computing and storage and other IT functions in the cloud and certainly the old methods of backup are being replaced by new methods that are more efficient and use less resources. So I help clients who are facing big money problems survive.

However, I see all the shrinking companies, failing companies and government entities with less money than requirements and I can clearly see that it is still very rough out there. The regulatory agencies are making life hard for financial and medical verticals as well as government entities. Some of the requirements are nonsense. But big government tends to be stupid and wasteful.

Too many people do not know history and do not learn from it. So the USA is going the way of the Western European nations who became more and more socialist and we are then surprised that municipalities and entire states are facing bankruptcy? Thanks to the Obamites, every man, woman and child owes more than 50 K to the rest of the world because our government spends money like it was meaningless and the people at the top live like kings and queens. Idiots vote for the people who continue to do this to our nation. If you are a Darwinist and a Democrat, well, you are certainly part of the problem.

"the idiot never read the resources I gave him and I know this by his responses"

Since I'm the person that you are so fond of insulting instead of addressing the questions you apparently can't answer - no, I did read the resources, as I previously pointed out to you. It's clear you didn't understand the points I was making: that the arguments you are making are mere distractions from the questions you were asked and that you can't answer.

The question was whether the church opposed heliocentrism. The answer was that the church did exactly that, citing scripture. You claimed that Christians citing scripture aren't Christians for some reason (because they're in a position of power?). Obviously you lost that argument.

The other question was whether you could name any real-time experiments or studies that demonstrably confirmed ID, which you previously claimed existed. You couldn't name one. That's why you lost that argument too.

"The deficit is increasing rapidly,"

The annual budget deficit is strongly trending down. Check the data.

"unemployment is a BIG problem,"

Of course. But again, we're seeing a massive improvement from the beginning of Obama's first term.

Seems odd to me that an "idiot" who "lives in a fantasy world" consistently has the facts on his side, while Mr. Genius here has to come up with endless distractions and pages of unrelated rants instead of backing up his claims.

"You are one of those guys who STILL blames Bush for Obama's transgressions?"

No, though I do blame Bush and his administration for leaving the country in a disastrous state, which you appear incapable of doing.

I had you wrong, commenter, I thought you just wanted me to call you an idiot and be done with it. But you want to prove just how big an idiot you are?

The church/state of the time of Galileo had a history of punishing and even killing common people for the "crime" of owning a Bible. The Spanish Inquisition was a grab for money but also intended to kill off genuine Christians who did not kowtow to the so-called church.

Voltaire famously said of the Holy Roman Empire, "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire."

Individual priests within the monolithic church/state did great things - establish education for commoners, invent the disciplines of science, start the Reformation and bring about the education and literacy of the masses. But the leadership was corrupt, ridiculously so, so that any relationship between this so-called "church" and God was simply a travesty.

Torquemada was known to seek to kill Jews and take their money, but he also sought after all Christians who did not obey the decrees of the corrupt church/state. For instance, look at the life of Tyndale in the grand scheme of things of this time period:

Actual Christians had to be secretive or might well be tortured horribly before finally being killed. Considering the fate of so many of them, particularly in Spain, the bravery of men like Tyndale and Calvin and Luther is demonstrated.

As I said, this pseudo-church that was actually a consortium of elitists included royals who claimed to rule by the will of God and popes who sometimes seemed to behave like Borgias...in fact one WAS a Borgia...and there were rapist popes and at least one female pope who impersonated a man and just an incredible array of evil characters who ruled in Europe during the time of the Holy Roman Empire.

As for the Obama Administration and the economy which was beginning to fall apart because of the Fannie/Freddie/ACORN scandal perpetrated by the Democrats, who had control over the mortgage industry in the last years of the Bush Administration and stepped on the economy-wrecking gas by encouraging bad loans and allowing them to be bundled with good securities, thereby taking the economy down, it would take months to get you up to speed.

I put up the amazing Youtube video of Maxine Waters and Barney Frank defending their nefarious policies and proclaiming the housing industry and Fannie and Freddie to be in great shape while in fact they were about to crash and burn.

The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 was what the Democrats vigorously opposed, an act designed to fix the loopholes in GLB which would turn out to be the undoing of Fannie and Freddie and AIG and would reveal the ACORN scandal to the public but far too late to stop the trainwreck that crashed the mortgage industry and took down otherwise good investments with it.

The economic crisis of 2008 was created by the Democrats who refused to fix the problem and then turned around to blame George Bush for years (heck, you and Obama still do it) while in fact Bush had fought for reform and McCain, once in favor of GLB, had fought to fix the damage long before the 2008 election.

I laid out for people how the laws were changed and why Bush and the Republicans tried in vain to undo the damage of Gramm-Leach-Bliley act, which repealed portions of the Glass-Steagall act. While it was a bipartisan bill signed into law by Bill Clinton, it soon became clear that the unexpected consequences were taking the housing market down a deadly road.

Now we have a limping economy and a President doing his best to kill off many of our industries and stop us from using our rich resources of fossil fuels for the sake of climate alarmist propaganda which we know is based on lies on top of lies. The faked hockey stick graph, the widespread "fixing" of weather reporting stations in North America and the IPCC CRU emails that reveal fraud on top of 17 years of NO warming should convince a normal person that man does not change the climate and we need to harvest our oil and coal and gas resources to start our economy moving.

Enough. I could bring a cup of water and show it to you and you would call it mud. You do not want truth and you do not want evidence and you are a humbug. An idiotic, brainwashed, dangerous humbug. Again, I hope to God you are not an educator of any kind! There should be no doubt in your mind that I consider you to be a complete idiot. I have tried to make it plain. It is the kindest thing I could possibly do, because if you get angry enough you may try to actually research for yourself and discover that you ARE an idiot and make a change. Here's hoping...

I take it you need to engage in these lengthy rants to ameliorate your pride problem and to somehow get over being unable to back up your hollow claims once you were called on them.

Nobody is denying that there were any number of reprobates and morally questionable people in the church, but that doesn't somehow make the church something other than the church - a Christian organization consisting of people who considered Jesus their savior, who thought they were going to heaven, and who insisted on spreading that belief.

Yes, Christians opposed heliocentrism because it contradicted a literal interpretation of scripture. Until the science indicating otherwise became undeniable.

No, rather the fact is that the church-state was not Christian, but rather the ruling bodies of Europe, wearing the label of Christianity but consisting primarily of elites who made the rules and took the money. Again, research and knowledge of history would tell you that there were Christians within the church, but the church-state was corrupt and about as Christian as Richard Dawkins.

For those of you who ARE capable of simple research and have even a slight interest in real history, I would suggest Halley's Bible Handbook, the Christian History Online Site, the Buy The Truth blog (so you get the real story of Galileo that this commenter will not bother to read) and Coppedge's online THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K.

The church-state persecuted and executed hundreds of Christians and Jews. It was led by greedy and evil men more often than any good ones. There were Christians within that group, but they did their best work as individuals and finally had to break away, thus Luther and Calvin and others like them started the Reformation. To break away from the Holy Roman Empire would cost many Christians their lives, but it was done. The Bible was finally available to the common man so he could see what a travesty the church/state had been.

The Pope during these times was often equivalent to a Mafia boss. The church/state sometimes resembled the most heinous of tyrannies. Read up on Torquemada and the Inquisition sometime.

It was Christians who insisted that the Sun was at the center of the Solar System and they eventually convinced the rest of the world. Galileo was a trouble-maker who, if he had just kept his mouth shut and asked people to observe the Solar System through telescopes, would have been part of the solution. But he had to deliberately insult the Pope and change his story to the point he was censured.

Copernicus, Kepler, Tycho Brahe? Great believing scientists who advanced human knowledge. I will follow with a quote from Buy The Truth...

" Either Galileo was a troublemaking heliocentrist who committed perjury on multiple occasions, thus compounding his offensive behaviour (as most historians maintain, as did the Roman Catholic church) or he was a troublemaking crypto-geocentrist and no worthy champion of heliocentrism at all. Let the reader decide. But a martyr for science and free speech he was not. Further demonstration of Galileo’s disingenuousness and duplicity, and the false legends of history about him, will have to await another post, but suffice to say that Galileo was a persistent troublemaker and plagiarist who could have spared himself and others a good deal of bother had he been able to tame his impetuous folly and unbridled arrogance. As Rodney Stark has pointed out, his insufferable arrogance and recklessness ‘placed the whole scientific enterprise itself in jeopardy’."

Galileo caused his own troubles. As to the Catholic Church as we know it now, it is a cleaned-up version of the incestuous church/state of the Middle Ages and contains many Christians, although it also contains many people who think following the elaborate traditions and doing Catholic things will save them. Only true faith in Christ will save anyone, not membership in a church. I am thankful the Catholics are not the combination of the old Roman Empire, European royals and elitists, power-mad sociopaths and a minority of believing priests as they were in the time of Galileo.

Proverbs 26:4&5 now comes to mind. I have answered with truth and you keep giving me drivel and deliberately avoid reading the resources I recommended other than to do some quote-mining. You do not want to learn nor converse, you just like a place to spread your propaganda. Your simplistic view of Galileo is about as real as the idea Columbus set sail to prove the Earth is round.

Back with allegations of voter fraud based on the fact that some urban voting precincts vote almost exclusively democrat? You know, most people wouldn't be surprised that obama received every vote from small (these precincts were generally under 200, by your claims) urban precincts that, I'm guessing, are at least 95% black (and probably 100% in many cases). The fact that obama won well over 90% of the black vote nationally means that it isn't statistically improbable for him to take 100% of the votes in a small black precinct (especially if you consider other factors- like geographic region, income, urban/rural,... - into account).

And you would think that if a voter voted for romney in one of those precinicts, they would have noticed and said something?

Radar--- if you are serious with your allegations about voter fraud, do something about it. It wouldn't be hard to go to one of these voting precincts and canvass the neighborhood looking for your romney voter whose vote was erased by the democratic/atheist/darwinist/socialist/fascist/communist machine. Imagine what happens when you find these people in all (or some, or even just one) of those precincts you listed. You would then have something real to say on your blog. Imagine that. You could be the next woodward!!!!!!! You literally could make money, maybe garner some fame, and take down the evil democrats by investigating this.

What I discovered was unreal - precincts that sent in over 100% of their registered votes, precincts with 100% Democrat votes and much worse, Democrats posing as Republican poll workers and throwing out any actual Republicans. People being told what to vote before they went into booths.

With access to official records and a couple of contacts in the area, I saw widespread fraud and intimidation and did indeed give the evidence to the Republicans.

They didn't want to do anything. In fact the first reaction was anger that I would pursue the investigation! I finally figured out that the only way to have fair voting in those precincts was to have to pay armed guards to allow Republican poll workers to be there and check the voters out. The local Republicans didn't want to pay for it and the downstate Republicans didn't think it was worth doing.

Before long I realized that people in Lake County were being paid, that the downstate people thought Northern Lake County was a lost cause and was not worth a penny to them and that it would take an army of me to do anything about it. Lake County has been voting Democrat since the days of FDR and once the Republican party here was a subsidiary of the Dems and actually were getting a stipend from the Dems. That has changed now, but there are a LOT of people who are in it for the money and the layers of complexity are a lot like the New York Mafia of the 1980's in miniature. It would take a few hundred people with money and badges to change things and the powers that be are not planning on rocking the boat.

I am up to my ears in the political scene in Indiana and I know lots of politicians and party officials and campaign workers. If I could herd them into pens, there would be a large group I would put in the ?! pen because I have no idea if they are sincere or are on the take or are actually Democrats who are working on the Republican side to keep tabs on things and create disagreements and muddy up the primaries. A smaller group would go into the "likely sincere" pen, another group into the "don't rock the boat" pen and then there would be the "genuine principled" pen, which would have the fewest of all.

Many honorable politicians I know have left office and given up on politics out of sheer disgust or exhaustion. The Machiavellian tangle of relationships and relatives and payoffs and unholy alliances of it all is amazing...the 2012 election was full of infighting and rancor as true believers ran headlong into crooks and alongside them came the people focused on whacky side-issues. There were police reports made and weapons brandished and all sorts of stuff that never got into print.

A Woodward would not suffice to change anything. We'd need a small army of armed officials and a big team of attorneys and another set of highly intelligent accountants to unravel the spaghetti and dig out the rats and kill off the roaches and pick off all the leeches.

I am too old to be all that worried about my own life, but my family is another matter.

Back in the 1980's I took on the task of kicking out the Teamster's Union from my company and trying to switch to the UAW (not much of an upgrade but slightly less crooked) and they sent a message...I was a workout nut back then and not afraid of a direct threat, but I was told that my kids would pay if I didn't stop. I stopped.

I then campaigned for a guy from our company to take office in the local Teamsters Union and his "ticket" took on half the offices and he won the big one as the secretary I think it was. He was the guy who called the shots. It took him about a month to act just like the guy he replaced and nothing changed. Well, one thing changed. From that point forward the Union was looking for a way to move me along to another company. So when a dispute came up with the company the Union wss not on my side. Long story short, I eventually changed careers.

The leadership of most unions are not unlike crime bosses. Funny how things flipped. Unions began as the way the people got fair treatment from greedy factory owners. Now the unions are as bad now as the factory owners were back then. Many of the more successful companies are non-union and are unlikely to change. Many of the union shops are in trouble (see Detroit auto industry and rust belt steel industry) but, like politicians, the union bosses have got theirs and always will.

Obama flies his DOG to a vacation and no one bats an eye? This nation is heading for disaster and it is doing it to itself. A combination of foolishness and immorality and ignorance is taking us down. How is Obama and Holder still in office? If they were Republicans, the media would have hung them in effigy already. Stupid begets stupid.

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The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent, tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity.Francis Maitland Balfour