I hear in arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen that it includes the possibility of attaining the rainbow body. Frankly, besides that it sounds cool, I don't see the point of it at all. It might be a great miracle to see someone's body vaporise with colourful lights, but beyond that what? Realisation of the 3/4 bodies are inherent in awareness so it is not the case that buddhahood is at stake. Then why the fuss?

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Astus wrote:I hear in arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen that it includes the possibility of attaining the rainbow body. Frankly, besides that it sounds cool, I don't see the point of it at all. It might be a great miracle to see someone's body vaporise with colourful lights, but beyond that what? Realisation of the 3/4 bodies are inherent in awareness so it is not the case that buddhahood is at stake. Then why the fuss?

Hello Astus,

Good topic.

Dzogchen is a way based on karma or/and our level of understanding.Dzogchen can be quick, depends of the effort, allertness, time, money to do the retreats, health etc.

Just like in other methods do only the best succeed.It would be very nice that if i do a practice i would or get enlightened by that or when i mention a name i would be that. Ain't no easy like that......... Reality is more complicated.

Nobody at least i do not mean that other methods would not be good but i underline that yellow is not red.

Sure every karma has her related method(s) and that is a personal meant- and understandable method of course.

We have also the three motivations related to our level of understanding namely:

- Low - could be a bicycle - avarage - could be a car- High - could be a plane

Some take karmic seen the plane and are quick, good motivated and very intelligent with a great Wisdom.Others are not so and that is normal.

We talk about this for the superiority because in 'powa chenpo' rainbow body's case, after transforming this body to rainbow body, you can use this body to benefit beings endlessly. Of course you can also benefit beings without rainbow body, just that it would be in different forms.

But that kind of rainbow body is very rare.Usually when we talk about rainbow body, it's a general one (eg. no corp left), it's a sign of attaining enlightment.

Sarma schools also claim that their paths can achieve rainbow body, but I am not sure if they are the same kind of rainbow body.

You say with a rainbow body it's easier to help many beings. But if one dies the flesh and bones are left behind and there is not limit for emanation bodies whether one has a human body here or not. That's why I ask what extra rainbow body has.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

You say with a rainbow body it's easier to help many beings. But if one dies the flesh and bones are left behind and there is not limit for emanation bodies whether one has a human body here or not. That's why I ask what extra rainbow body has.

hi, for great beings who attained buddhahood, there is no limit for their emanations. Just give two examples of 'Powa chenpo' rainbow body:Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra; they all still have endless emanations to help beings. But for this world, at this time, they don't need to go through common body old and death process.

Like Padmasambhava, he stayed in India for hundreds of years, and again stayed in Tibet for a hundred or so, in the end he didn't die, he went to raksha island. Vimalamitra is still in Mt. Wu-Tai in China now, quite some Tibetan masters went there and met him in person (in forms of begger etc).

Although fully enlightened beings can generate limitless emanations anyway, when in form of klesha body, their actions are usually limited by natural rule: old and death. Even when there are some ways to prelong one's life, usually a flesh body can't be used for too long and in the end one can't be as active as young people. Therefore, great beings change body, that's one of reasons why we have tulku system. great being himself won't be influenced by that process, and for some people it's not a bad thing to remind them that nothing is preminant; however low-wisdom people like me would sometimes think how nice if dligo khyentse rinpoche or dudjom rinpoche didn't need to change their body!

It's just my opinion, actually not too many people really attained powa chenpo body in history anyway. So if you prefer mahamudra, there is no problem to follow it.This kind of discussion is interesting, but is also like two ants debating about which skyline building is higher. Don't spend too much time on it unless you are already near the top of one of them.

Namdrol may be right, I don't know.....he probably is. But it's important to note that quite a few "Sarma" Lamas practiced Dzokchen secretly, as well. Some of those Rainbow Bodies may have been Dzokchen-produced. Those Lamas just didn't talk about it.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham wrote:Namdrol may be right, I don't know.....he probably is. But it's important to note that quite a few "Sarma" Lamas practiced Dzokchen secretly, as well. Some of those Rainbow Bodies may have been Dzokchen-produced. Those Lamas just didn't talk about it.

Rainbow body is also explicitly mentioned as a result of Vajrayogini practice in the Sakya tradition and not as a result of Dzogchen in this case. This was in fact the point of my statement to Namdrol on the similar esangha thread.

Maybe I've missed something here in Narraboth's answer but I still don't see the use of dissolving the physical body into rainbow lights besides its obvious miraculous nature that can inspire faith. Also, if we go into the land of wonders, bodhisattvas are capable of all kinds of magic transforming themselves into virtually anything, including buddhas. And that ability is available to a large number of gods, demons and yogis too. So, again, what is so special about the rainbow body that it can be an argument for the superiority of dzogchen?

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Astus wrote:Maybe I've missed something here in Narraboth's answer but I still don't see the use of dissolving the physical body into rainbow lights ....

It's a natural result after the winds and channels have been totally purified. Even the elements of one's body have been transformed into wisdom (the five elements transformed into the five wisdoms as well as the five ignorances having been transformed into the five wisdoms). As a result complete wisdom is manifested. This then begs the question why didn't Shakyamuni demonstrate it? Because his whole purpose was to demonstrate the common, long path. There are apparently levels of the rainbow body as well. It's one of the many ways of practitioners entering enlightenment.

From the Bon tradition, the Ligmincha Institute says in their glossary:

rainbow body - (tib: 'ja lus) The sign of full realization in dzogchen is the attainment of the rainbow body. The realized dzogchen practitioner, no longer deluded by apparent substantiality or dualisms such as mind and matter, releases the energy of the elements that compose the physical body at the time of death. The body itself is dissolved, leaving only hair and nails, and the practitioner consciously enters death.

This seems to be what my Nyingma teachers have said as well. I'm not sure my Sakya teachers went into detail about the rainbow body aside from mentioning it as the demonstration of Buddhahood (but one can attain Buddhahood without demonstrating rainbow body) as well).

For example, a high Sakya lama apparently confirmed a partial rainbow body manifestation of a practitioner in 2007 or 2008 whose body shrank after death to the size of a child. This practitioner's body did not however disappear into light.

Also, the Wikipedia entry, apparently written by a knowledgeable person, indicates that rainbow body is the manifestation of a kind of Dharmakaya phowa (so phowa into the five wisdom lights). This of course needs to be checked.

narraboth wrote:This kind of discussion is interesting, but is also like two ants debating about which skyline building is higher. Don't spend too much time on it unless you are already near the top of one of them.

yes, indeed.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Astus wrote:I hear in arguments for the superiority of Dzogchen that it includes the possibility of attaining the rainbow body. Frankly, besides that it sounds cool, I don't see the point of it at all. It might be a great miracle to see someone's body vaporise with colourful lights, but beyond that what? Realisation of the 3/4 bodies are inherent in awareness so it is not the case that buddhahood is at stake. Then why the fuss?

Hello Astus,

Thanks for the post.

Hope to understand your difficult statement / question now more.

In my opinion has everybody so his/her affection with a certain tradition.It is easy to explain like some like patatoes and some like rice.

Or better said some have that realisation and others another realisation, like the enlightenment of the Buddha Shakyamuni and the Rainbow Body of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen.This is based on a certain feeling or trust in a tradition with its methods which depends on the time and place where one is born with the related karma etc.

From the other side did i not see an enlightened person i guess and also i did never see a rainbow body with my eyes. But this exist.

But it does exist nevertheless i never did see it.Why?Because i believe it and have a big trust in my lineage holders.I guess everybody does so.......

So we have to believe it and/or must wait untill we experience that kind of enlightenment.In the meanwhile we do our practice with great diligence,trust and effort in the light of our lineage.

Best wishes with our praxisKalden Yungdrung

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Although I agree that discussion about the details of this kind of result have no practical application in my own personal continuum.....I thank Astus for asking the question. It's a good question. "Oh, that's pretty" but so what?

Those who've answered about emanations and the ability to benefit beings, it would be cool to know about more precisely how this would work.

Kirtu, I'm not saying that all Sarma Rainbow Body Lamas (? How many are there, anyway?) achieved the result, necessarily, via a secret Dzokchen practice I don't know, for example, what the alleged cause of Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche's teacher's achievement was....just that it's possible for Sarma practitioners to achieve it, and secret Dzokchen practice MAY be a possible cause.....I dunno.

Also, I recall that Kalachakra's "Illusory Body" differs from the Illusory Body explained in other Sarma Tantras, principally the Guhyasamaja and Chakrasamvara Tantras, if I recall....the Kalachakra's Illusory Body is said to be a substantial body....or something like that.

Which points to another factor-sometimes the seemingly-same term means different things in different contexts, eh?

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

To me, a rainbow body attests to the highest realization possible. Since everything arose from rigpa, the attainment of the rainbow meant that you attained the ability to reverse the whole process, including your physical body.

Also, I understand that the practitioner may choose not to manifest the rainbow body at the time of his/her passing away if that is of no benefit to anyone.

Sorry to bombard this topic and Im not sure if I should have started a new thread for it. But, what is a rainbow body? Somene tried to explain it to me and said that the person shrinks a bit

Its a good question, perhaps the body of light is better way to understand. The body is made of elements, fire, water, wind, earth etc, and in there course form, we have a body of karma, karmic in nature etc, we also have a vajra body which is the elements in their pure form. Practices to purify the karmic body, allows the coarse elements to purify into their pure nature, the karmic body decays and dies, the vajra body does not. Most will settle into dharmakaya peace, the elements will dispearse etc, the dharmakaya is nothing, there is no activity. The shrinkage you mention is partial rainbow body, the water has returned to water, the fire settles into fire elements etc, and outwards the flesh (gross karmic body) shrinks. this is not the same as the great transfer, where death is not even reached. Here the individual has purified into a dimension that still is active, and can interact with others of like vision, activity is on going and brings benefits to all. The images of people in rainbow colours are not accurate but just a visual representation of a principle at work. sorry i have not the time to explain more, but just in a simple way.

dzogchen is concerned principly with the nirmanakayaapologise for the awful typos/

Here's what I think:Due to Ignorance, based on the five lights, the five elements and mind appear. Based on the five elements and karma, the various worlds and sentient beings appear. The rainbow body is the reversal of the physical body (and the emergent mind) to the original state. (Note: I am assuming here that the five elements are even more basic than quarks.)