GC posted "To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 30% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken."

Interesting change, not really sure it does what Blizz wants it to do though. It makes parry and haste a little better, but first look it doesn't make it THAT much better.

I'll be interested to see if there's an internal cd on the proc, could make us very strong mitigation and dps wise on large packs of mobs.Less good, i'm guessing this will be a noticeable dps nerf when off tanking or when not taking hits that can be dodged / parried.Will be interesting to see if 30% proc chance makes Mastery our least valuable stat up until the DR on avoidance starts to hurt a lot.

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

So (breaks out the napkin) if I was hitting a standard rotation of CS J X CS X J CS X X, that's 9 x 1.5 = 13.5 seconds (not counting haste) in which I get a 20% chance 5 times, or around a 68% chance of 1 proc of AS (80% chance to not get it, 5 times, so 1 - .8^5 = ~68%).

Bosses swing at different rates, and do other things like specials or casts or such that are not dodge/parry-able, but assuming a 1.5-second swing, we would have 9 chances to dodge/parry over that time, which from my character sheet means around 25% chance to dodge/parry each time. So a dodge/parry that would proc AS would happen 30% of 25% (7.5%) of the time on a melee hit.

That gives me a 1 - (.925^9) chance of 1 AS proc over the same period of time, which works out to 50%.

So unless I miss my guess, our AS procs just got an 18% nerf. That 18% is based on the assumption of no haste and a boss with a relatively fast swing that is not interrupted by specials or channeling or such. Actual results should be much worse.

GC wasn't the most important part of our repertoire while we aren't tanking - just pool HoPo up for when you grab the boss back. We'll get 3 HoPo back in 9 seconds when hit/exp capped, and a full 5 HoPo in 13.5s. So, survival-side won't suffer much.

DPS side is going to suffer a bit more - doesn't GC account for about half our AS's?

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Sagara wrote:GC wasn't the most important part of our repertoire while we aren't tanking - just pool HoPo up for when you grab the boss back. We'll get 3 HoPo back in 9 seconds when hit/exp capped, and a full 5 HoPo in 13.5s. So, survival-side won't suffer much.

DPS side is going to suffer a bit more - doesn't GC account for about half our AS's?

Well, GC accounted for 1 HP every 20 seconds, on average, which means an extra shield per minute. The new version will take around 25% longer to generate a bonus shield while we are tanking, and of course it'll be impossible to generate any bonus shields when we aren't tanking.

yep but as someone pointed out. this is an enormous buff on AoE fights. Will make Paladins even better for Meljarak as they already are anyway.

also shekzeer P2. it might even be worth gathering an avoidance set for those kinds of fights, finally I can get out my Brewfest trophy.

nonetheless, overall I don't think this might chance our gear strategy for our general gearset, it might just make us consider, and hurt less, taking those Parry pieces anyway until we get the one we really want.

although, this will buff the parry/dodge > all strategie, and I wonder how close it will get to the control strats.

The Gap will become a little bit closer.IIRC the avoid > all strat had the slightest difference to the control strat when you don´t press your buttons as fast as you could (or have some lag). With this change, the avoidstrat will get stonger, but the buff will have the smallest impact on the "lag-influenced strings" and should have the strongest on "aoe strings".I wonder how it´ll change the numbers in the "<4 seconds" and "5+ seconds" departement.Maybe also a bit more balance over here?

My overall concern with this train of thought from Blizzard, is how we're going to suffer DPS wise. I'm not normally one for it, but I do notice that I'm 5-7k behind my co-tank who is similarily geared. Not to mention, my RL/GM likes to point it out a lot too even though I feel like I have a tight rotation. Am I just expecting too much to be competing with the other tank classes?

Fenrìr wrote:My overall concern with this train of thought from Blizzard, is how we're going to suffer DPS wise. I'm not normally one for it, but I do notice that I'm 5-7k behind my co-tank who is similarily geared. Not to mention, my RL/GM likes to point it out a lot too even though I feel like I have a tight rotation. Am I just expecting too much to be competing with the other tank classes?

Tried looking at your armory but you're in ret spec atm If you want some thoughts on burning up the charts, make another post and I'll be glad to help out!

On topic; I agree with not seeing this change really effecting anything we do atm. If you go the dodge/parry path (Does anyone do this? Well, anyone informed?) then this will be a fairly awesome buff, but there are still a lot of down sides to it.

Personally one of the things I love about my haste gear is that it allows me to jump in to my ret spec and kick some ass with out thinking twice. My guild runs a 12-14 deep roster for ten man and at least four of them are plate users, both tanks, a fury warrior, and a holy pal. Always only being a weapon and a reforge away from killer ret gear is very handy. And that's on top of all the other perks of a haste heavy gear strat.

To me paladins seem to be low on dps at low veng but scale better with ap than other tanks. I've got no numbers to back that up but it seems that with a haste build on bosses that hit hard we're fairly balanced. If they leave our ap scaling where it is I think we'll be good dps next tier on heroic bosses if not normals.Like several other ppl I'm worried that Blizz underestimate how strong this GC change could be for dmg mitigation and dps while aoe tanking, and that they'll do a typical knee jerk nerf mid tier :/

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

Sagara wrote:GC wasn't the most important part of our repertoire while we aren't tanking - just pool HoPo up for when you grab the boss back. We'll get 3 HoPo back in 9 seconds when hit/exp capped, and a full 5 HoPo in 13.5s. So, survival-side won't suffer much.

DPS side is going to suffer a bit more - doesn't GC account for about half our AS's?

Well, GC accounted for 1 HP every 20 seconds, on average, which means an extra shield per minute. The new version will take around 25% longer to generate a bonus shield while we are tanking, and of course it'll be impossible to generate any bonus shields when we aren't tanking.

Average isn't a real fight, especially when that changes the *pattern* of generation more than anything.We get less HoPo, yes. When exaclty? When we don't need it, i.e. when we're not tanking.

How important is that GC proc when you're not the one tanking, survival-wise? Near-zero. You could make a point of Garalon and/or high damage physical attack, but 14 fights out of 16, you only need that proc when you're tanking.

And you should probably be banking on HoPo in that time to prepare when you *become* the one tanking. In fact, it could actually be a survival buff *because* we get that HoPo when we actually need it.

When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

If the napkin math higher up is correct, looks ok to me (that's not saying much though), under ideal single target tanking, that's a boss with a fast swing timer and no tank switches, this GC change will be a small but real dmg reduction and dps nerf. That's under ideal conditions though, as soon as you add in a slower swing timer and special attacks that can't be dodged it becomes a more noticeable nerf.It just seems silly to nerf single target dmg reduction where all tanks seem fairly balanced but buff aoe where were already strong dmg reduction wise at least.I think GC should have a higher proc chance and a short icd, or even better a variation on the real ppm mechanic, so the longer we go without a proc (aka single target) the greater the chance of getting a proc.

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

RPPM (which gets modified by haste) and a ICD of ~1 second (modified by haste) I would think, that way you can get the proc between 2 uses of GC and benefit fully if you are lucky, but without being guaranteed a proc between each.

(Nota bene; those numbers are just thrown out there as I should have my shoe son and be going out the front door to go to a meeting right now)

Fetzie wrote:There isn't a problem with warriors using revenge when it procs (i.e. all the time when AoE tanking), why do we think doing the same with AS would be any different?

Revenge is only extra dps right?I'm thinking about the high SotR up time we'd be getting, we already seem to take less dmg than druids, dks, and monks when aoe tanking, with the new GC model we'd end up been even stronger.

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

Revenge generates 15 rage when in defensive stance. 4 of them and you can cast Shield Block, which means you are guaranteed to block for 6 seconds and those blocks can be critical (60%). And Revenge resets its cooldown on EVERY dodge and parry.

Ah ok I stand corrected then.It just seems that Warriors aren't a long way ahead of us in aoe dps or mitigation (I could be wrong about that not got a warrior in the guild never mind a prot one), so us getting a sizable buff to tanking large groups of mobs might lead to us getting nerfed elsewhere to maintain "balance".Not that I'm in anyway against been op

Daishan"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

Fenrìr wrote:My overall concern with this train of thought from Blizzard, is how we're going to suffer DPS wise.

Top 100 parses on Raidbots for 25H has paladins as the top DPS of a tank. All parses have them second by a wide margin behind monks. There doesn't seem to be a huge DPS difference at a base class level that this should effect in any major manner.

We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.

Fetzie wrote:Revenge generates 15 rage when in defensive stance. 4 of them and you can cast Shield Block, which means you are guaranteed to block for 6 seconds and those blocks can be critical (60%). And Revenge resets its cooldown on EVERY dodge and parry.