Sometimes, you need to scream in order to be heard, to think otherwise is foolish idealism._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

My apologies if this has been posted before. This is why we need feminism - until people of all genders can walk anywhere and not fear being groped, harassed, assaulted; until equal pay for equal work is not just a phrase uttered; when all people are judged by their actions and not on their appearances; when people's choices are respected.

When I post on an internet forum, I am not merely interacting with one other person. I am interacting with a host of audience members. Your valuation of a post only in terms of how possible it is to convince one other person among this host is narrow and inaccurate.

If I* didn't "waste my time", then the posters expressing vile opinions would go unchecked. There would be a significant cost to this - other posters would feel more welcome to offer their own vile opinions, and posters with better opinions would feel less welcome to offer theirs, and this very nice place would become significantly less nice.

Further, the discourse of today is part of the naturally selective process for the opinions of tomorrow (though I've made it somewhat less natural by mentioning it). When I make a person expressing vile opinions unwelcome, I help create an environment which selects against having vile opinions.

"But", I imagine you interjecting, "Why be mean about it? Why not just outargue the people expressing vile opinions?"

I do that, too. But people do not choose their opinions by reason alone. I want the audience to know that the opinions are not only illogical, but also unpopular, and likely to arouse condescension and scorn from others. I want their dislike of the opinion to be visceral and automatic.

Smooshie wrote:

My point cannot possibly be minor if the existence of such terminology is the antithesis of a progressive movement in the first place.

I suppose you think this is self-evident, but I don't think it's at all true. Please tell me why you think this.

*Many of my uses of "I" up here refer to the entire crack team of argumentologists of which I am part._________________"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine

So at what point does it become wrong to stereotype people? If not dudebro, when?

It would often be wrong to stereotype people as dudebros (dudebroes? dudebroen?)

In the context of someone signing up to this forum to complain about the comic being too feminist, who makes the same "men's rights" arguments that have been shot down in the subforum every week for the last year, who is impervious to normal conversation and reasoning, and who I perceive as actively causing harm by championing a vile ideology, I think it is not wrong.

It's pretty situational and nuanced - I don't think there can be firm criteria. But sometimes you just know, y'know?_________________"To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others."
- Anne-Sophie Swetchine

My apologies if this has been posted before. This is why we need feminism - until people of all genders can walk anywhere and not fear being groped, harassed, assaulted; until equal pay for equal work is not just a phrase uttered; when all people are judged by their actions and not on their appearances; when people's choices are respected.

I don't believe it has. I did see it a while back though, and wow has it grown since then._________________Samsally the GrayAce

My apologies if this has been posted before. This is why we need feminism - until people of all genders can walk anywhere and not fear being groped, harassed, assaulted; until equal pay for equal work is not just a phrase uttered; when all people are judged by their actions and not on their appearances; when people's choices are respected.

I don't believe it has. I did see it a while back though, and wow has it grown since then.

I was reading these, all bad, nothing (sadly) too surprising, until I read this one:

Quote:

Dennise 2013-02-25 14:39
I wasn't feeling well and I have asked my mother to pour me a cup of coffee. Since tehre was no coffee left and she needed to go pick my brother up, I have asked my dad to make me some. Never have I heard the following words out of him: "No! That's what you women are made for!" I tried explaining that I can't get up and I could really use a drink, but he wouldn't listen. He kept on talking how that's degrading for him, how can I put my own father on a low level like that... Am I trying to make him loose his masculinity. "Men aren't made to do womens' job." I was really scared, I need to be honest. My dad has always made me breakfast and acted fatherly and like a real gentleman... But this. Oh woow. I felt really sad actually and went to my room and cried. He is my dad so how can I stand up against him? But, on the other hand, I felt so bad. I felt that others control my life and that I'm just a nothing. I still feel that way.

It physically made me ill.

Edit*
Holy shit I read some more . . . This doesn't exactly discourage misanthropy_________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.http://about.me/omardrake

*Many of my uses of "I" up here refer to the entire crack team of argumentologists of which I am part.

in 2011 a crack argumentologist team was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit. these posters promptly escaped from a maximum-security stockade to Sinfest. today, still wanted by the government, they survive as posters of fortune. if you have a problem...if no one else can help...and if you can find them...maybe you can hire...the I-Team.

So how do you get around people's need to label things, then? Like, where does it stop being a label and start being a harmful stereotype?

How productive is it to sit here drawing lines in the sand?

I don't know, but it seems like a worthwhile question to me. Maybe it's easier for me, because of my privilege, to question everything. Once I began identifying as a feminist ally I started questioning all of my behavior, so I think this is an extension of that. I can't possibly know, though.

Samsally wrote:

Tekii wrote:

And in a thread about feminism and equality and all the stuff women have to deal with they're still being told how to talk, how to act, how to react?

Yeah, pretty much.

This, I think, is a difficult point. Because, while I'm still learning how to be more equal in my speech and behavior, things like this appear to me as unequal. I'm not an MRA telling you what to say. I'm a feminist ally, asking how feminists and feminist allies ought to speak in order to promote equality. This is as much self-policing, or policing the behavior of other male feminist allies, as it is policing you. I'm not even firmly on one side on the dudebro issue, I'm just trying to figure this out by asking questions. This type of response makes it feel as though I'm not allowed to examine the behavior of women, or by extension the behavior of other feminist allies, even if I'm not sure I agree with it or even just want to understand it better.

I understand that focusing on the behavior of women and feminists in particular is a tool of those opposed to equality to try and control how they speak in order to draw attention away from a real issue and waste time talking about how it's approached, but this is both not what I'm doing and also doesn't seem like a rationale for never addressing the language we use. Everyone should examine their language, male or female. I can give a pass to a newbie for not knowing me better, but I thought you would.

Quote:

I don't know, I don't really have a lot to add to this conversation but questions.

I'm not sure I have anything but questions either. I thought Sinfest would be a place to help me noodle over them in a thoughtful way, which is why I poked my nose in when Smooshie made their ham-fisted overture in this direction.

Quote:

I don't think calling someone a bad name is necessarily stereotyping them, though, and names like "dudebro" definitely don't carry the weight of internalized sexism with them.

The second part is something on which we clearly agree, and I hope you recognize that I accept it. The first part is the only issue in question. Dudebro is a stereotype if we use the term to group people by beliefs or behaviors that we assume they have, rather than those for which we have evidence. Like the obvious, if your friend is a math tutor it's fair to say they're good at math; if your friend is Asian it's not fair to assume they're good at math. If we observe someone saying women should do women's work then it's fair to label them as misogynistic. If we see them defending porn and we also assume they're only interested in women for sex then we're stereotyping.

If we see a certain behavior and then label that person a dudebro, then use that label to infer a bunch of other beliefs on them, that's definitely a stereotype. So, some people probably use it as a descriptive term for behavior they've seen, while others use it as a stereotype. It's not all or nothing.

Quote:

Like, men don't get called dudebro until they cross paths with a particular kind of feminist. Women get called bitch, cunt, slut, and whore by damn near anybody who doesn't like them. It's important to recognize the difference in impact between them.

Since this response was to me, can I ask if there's any reason you would think that I didn't recognize that difference? I've been a pretty staunch ally for a long time, I think.

Quote:

I'm pointing out that part of the big problem is that to even get listened to we have to be pristine pillars of perfection or people like you swoop in to shake your head disapprovingly.

Who is we? Because I thought we were all in this together, and this sounds like we (male allies) are attacking you (women), when I see it as we (male allies and women) trying to figure out what's right and equal, together. Not just the language you use, but also the language we use. If I'm expecting you to be a pristine pillar of perfection, then I'm holding myself to the same standard._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

Last edited by Dogen on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sometimes, you need to scream in order to be heard, to think otherwise is foolish idealism.

This is trite to the point of uselessness, and also seems to be missing the point. No one seems to be suggesting anyone be nicer, to scream less, or to stop our virtual curb-stomping of misogyny. I'd be a hypocrite if I said anyone ought to be nice, because I'm not nice. It's the specific language that's under discussion, not our tone or our outspokenness.

Sojobo wrote:

It would often be wrong to stereotype people as dudebros (dudebroes? dudebroen?)

In the context of someone signing up to this forum to complain about the comic being too feminist, who makes the same "men's rights" arguments that have been shot down in the subforum every week for the last year, who is impervious to normal conversation and reasoning, and who I perceive as actively causing harm by championing a vile ideology, I think it is not wrong.

It's pretty situational and nuanced - I don't think there can be firm criteria. But sometimes you just know, y'know?

I do. I alluded to it as much in my response to Samsally. I think the term can be used descriptively (fairly) or as a stereotype, and I guess I'm just trying to figure out where that line is. I don't want to be overly prescriptive, but I also don't want to miss opportunities to enlighten someone by pushing them into a box and then kicking the shit out of that box, you know? I wasn't born a feminist ally, I came to it over time, because smart people who I liked said things that resonated with me. I guess that's a lot to expect from people who come here just to complain about the comic and have no attachment to us._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

Sometimes, you need to scream in order to be heard, to think otherwise is foolish idealism.

This is trite to the point of uselessness, and also seems to be missing the point. No one seems to be suggesting anyone be nicer, to scream less, or to stop our virtual curb-stomping of misogyny. I'd be a hypocrite if I said anyone ought to be nice, because I'm not nice. It's the specific language that's under discussion, not our tone or our outspokenness.

I was referring to rants, which is really all they are. While some rants are logical and productive, I would say that most are people venting frustration. And I disagree, I took many of the comments to mean exactly to mean that we should "be nicer, . . ."

This is trite to the point of uselessness, and also seems to be missing the point. No one seems to be suggesting anyone be nicer, to scream less, or to stop our virtual curb-stomping of misogyny. I'd be a hypocrite if I said anyone ought to be nice, because I'm not nice. It's the specific language that's under discussion, not our tone or our outspokenness.

I was referring to rants, which is really all they are. While some rants are logical and productive, I would say that most are people venting frustration. And I disagree, I took many of the comments to mean exactly to mean that we should "be nicer, . . ."

I'll give you Smooshie, because even though I accepted the argument about dudebro, I disagreed with them pretty clearly about being nice. But Felgraf said on the last page (in response to you), "I don't dislike the term dudebro because it's 'not nice'. I am FINE with not nice language." So I'm not sure who you're arguing with._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

I don't think I'm capable of responding in any real or intelligent way, Dogen, I'm sorry.

I've been sitting here for a half hour trying. So far I've made myself cry (in a break room, at work, fantastic) but I think that has a lot more to do with the rest of my life right now/my general state of mind than anything you've said.

I do just want to apologize, when I was talking in generals a lot of it came out sounding accusatory or at least specific to you and that wasn't the intention. I think I took a tangent to the real conversation because I wasn't paying close enough attention to what was really being said and that was totally my bad._________________Samsally the GrayAce

Sorry, I'm just still not seeing the issue with the word dudebro. Are feminists/women riding all over the internet, shooting men down with the name and applying all these stereotypes to them and what, making them feel bad? Dismissing their opinions? Genuinely asking here. As far as I can see its not being used to paint large groups of men as stereotypes but applied to certain men who exhibit particularly bad characteristics by some feminist women?

Sorry, I'm just still not seeing the issue with the word dudebro. Are feminists/women riding all over the internet, shooting men down with the name and applying all these stereotypes to them and what, making them feel bad? Dismissing their opinions? Genuinely asking here. As far as I can see its not being used to paint large groups of men as stereotypes but applied to certain men who exhibit particularly bad characteristics by some feminist women?

That's the question we're trying to answer. I don't know, but it seems entirely possible to use the term as a stereotype of a person about whom we have limited information (painting a single man as part of a larger culture to which he may or may not belong), which would be wrong. It also seems possible to use it descriptively, of a person about whom we do know. For my own purposes, I just try to avoid gendered slurs all together (though I'm not always successful, I'm working on it), but to the extent that gendered term actually applies I don't really give a shit if anyone else uses it._________________"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman

So how do you get around people's need to label things, then? Like, where does it stop being a label and start being a harmful stereotype?

How productive is it to sit here drawing lines in the sand?

I don't know, but it seems like a worthwhile question to me. Maybe it's easier for me, because of my privilege, to question everything. Once I began identifying as a feminist ally I started questioning all of my behavior, so I think this is an extension of that. I can't possibly know, though.