In his latest post, he directs our attention to some observations made by fellow MGTOWer Spock’s Disciple on the Happy Bachelors forum on the subject of pussy and its discontents. “This is good stuff, stuff my boys need to read,” Mark writes. “[Spock’s Disciple], like his hero, applied cold hearted logic when analzying pussy. The Force is STRONG with that one!”

Yes, he actually wrote that. I don’t think it’s a joke. I think he honestly does not know that there is a difference between Star Trek and Star Wars. How that is possible, I do not know.

Anyway, on to the eminently rational Spock’s Disciple, reflecting on the irrational power of the ladybits:

Remember that pussy is a biochemical WMD; wherever it is used, there is mass chaos and destruction. How many wars and conflicts have been fought at the urging and behest of women? More than any honest man would admit to and would be proud of.

Young men are apparently helpless in the face of the punany:

The need for pussy is a very real and built in addiction for men. We are hardwired by nature for sex and procreation. … [T]he sight and sound of pussy blinds younger men and allows them to be controlled by women though their hormones.

The, uh, SOUND of pussy? If I had to pick just two (or three, or four) sensory experiences relating to the vagina that would be generally considered appealing to heterosexual males, I’m not sure “sound” would make the cut.

But eventually even the horniest dudes start to get less horny – and thus less hypnotized by the power of the pussy. The only trouble is that by the time they lose interest in sex most of them are married, and they’re now stuck with the woman whose vagina formerly had them in thrall. It’s a grave injustice.

[W]hen most men pass the age of 30-35, they begin to awaken from this biochemical “dream” and what do they awaken beside? What do married men look forward to the next 30-50 years of their lives? Sleeping with a living corpse, which continues to torture and destroy them day by day? Looking forward to the time when the woman undergoes the process of metamorphosis, into a completely insane mummy (menopause and post menopause)?

This seems a tad alarmist. I mean, if your wife turns into a monster zombie-mummy – as all women apparently do after they hit their mid-thirties – you could always get separate bedrooms.

But Obi-Wan’s Spock’s Disciple has a more radical solution: don’t get into bed with the ladies in the first place!

Pussy is indeed way overrated and if younger men could get a shot of “anti-testosterone” for a few weeks, they could see through the eyes of men who are 40+; without the haze of hormones, you cannot believe how much farther you can see! It’s the difference between seeing the horizon through LA style smog and seeing the horizon from a high mountain in the Rockies.

Pussy is a man’s Achilles heel; once that man realizes this and takes the appropriate steps, he’ll never lose his peace of mind again. To these skeptical young men I say, there is an infinitely vast arena where you can have anything you desire, and can succeed at anything you wish to try for; all you have to do is see women for what they truly are, and become a master of the beast within; once you do that women’s true face will be visible to you, and you’ll never again partake of that foul potion.

It is possible to tame that beast, and indeed it is a certainty that you will learn much from the process of taming it; all it takes is patience and time. Look at your fellow men, your brothers in arms, and look at their almost invisible chains, and wonder at why you would desire such an existence for yourself?

And, hey, if all else fails, MarkyMark adds some advice of his own: pay a visit to Pamela Handerson before going out on the town with one of those vagina-people.

[T]here is one thing that the younger men can do until their sex drives die down permanently: masturbate before going out with a woman. … To put it another way, since the little head had been, shall we say, quieted down, the bigger head could work properly; the bigger head will then allow you to see a woman for who she REALLY is.

If you’re a fan of Spock, and looking for appropriate masturbatory material, might I suggest this?

@Holly Pervocracy “Sexual desire is a lovely thing. Sexual desire coupled with the belief that only partnered sex makes you a Real Man, coupled with a feeling of entitlement that no mere woman has the right to take away your chance at being a Real Man–now that’s a dark dangerous thing. But only that specific combination.”

Holly, I try not to listen to Real Man bullshit (and it’s very hard sometimes not to)…but what if I believed that partnered sex is a necessary condition of fully mature and healthy adulthood for anyone with a normal sex drive?

(I do, BTW. It cost me major points in self-esteem, but I personally see no way out of this belief.)

As far as the “sex with someone you dislike versus masturbation”, as a Real Man I can tell you from my experience that I’ve had sex with someone I can’t otherwise stand. It is a soul-sucking proposition, because I started hating myself for letting my urges drag me around on top of not liking her too much.

When I masturbate there’s always at least one person in the room who I love and respect.

Cassandra, Simon seems to also be blaming women for rape, along the lines of “well, if women don’t want to get raped, they might want to consider putting out more, and with guys they don’t find particularly appealing. Men are going to get their way, either way, so might as well close your eyes and accept the inevitable.”

@Raoul: “…but what if I believed that partnered sex is a necessary condition of fully mature and healthy adulthood for anyone with a normal sex drive?”

First off, you’d be wrong. Learning to live with not always getting what you want is a necessary condition of fully mature and healthy adulthood for EVERYBODY.

Secondly, if we reword that to a less creepy format of “partnered sex is the preferred condition of fully mature and healthy adulthood for most people with a normal sex drive,” the answer to your question is that you need to make yourself as desirable to potential sexual partners as possible, while being an honorable and decent human being, and hope that it is enough. If it isn’t, that’s a shame and I’m sorry… but no one is required to fulfill the needs of other human beings in the way that your question suggests.

I think life necessitates me having lots of really expensive and neat gadgets, but if I don’t have the money or the ability to convince someone to buy them for me, I don’t have any justification for stealing them. And before someone makes the “stealing food” analogy, the proper analogy would be walking past an apple tree with ripe fruit and free for picking and breaking into a grocery store because you prefer the taste of oranges.

Simon’s convinced that if he gives vague answers that just hint at his belief that some hypothetical person(totally not him) might possibly be forced to do something(not necessarily rape!) unless something or other happens(he completely doesn’t want women be drafted into a sex army to service losers like Simon before they are forced to rape someone!), then no one will know exactly what he’s getting at and he can pretend to be the victim…

… not coincidentally, the same way he’s victimized by women not having sex with him, and gays being gay in public where he can see them.

And here you have it, an urge of that strength that can’t be satisfied by impersonal resources is a dark force, to deny that defies all the wisdom of the ages.

I think greed for money is a more noble feeling than sexual desire.

I’m not even being mean when I say: your view of sex is regressive and inaccurate and fucked up and probably makes you miserable, so go see a therapist about that. I’ve literally talked to Catholic nuns who are way more chill and positive about sex than you are.

Sexual desire isn’t all that different from other human desires; we (generally) want to socialize, and be liked, and be entertained, and eat delicious things, and wear comfy and/or attractive clothes, and all the other shit that enriches our lives. The strength of these desires varies between individuals — and some people might have a very hard time abstaining from some of them — but missing out on these things won’t kill you, nor would any of them justify impinging on the rights of another human being.

No one is saying being horny and alone is blissful, any more than being bored or being unpopular or being in the mood for chocolate and having none is, but it’s also not some overwhelming force that mere humans can’t resist. Wanting sex is no more dire a need than wanting friends or wanting to have children, and it doesn’t inevitably lead to unstoppable raping sprees anymore than the latter wants inevitably lead to kidnappings — none of those desires are “dark forces” until people start being selfish and douchey in their quest to fulfill them.

“Sexual desire isn’t all that different from other human desires; we (generally) want to socialize, and be liked, and be entertained, and eat delicious things, and wear comfy and/or attractive clothes, and all the other shit that enriches our lives. The strength of these desires varies between individuals — and some people might have a very hard time abstaining from some of them — but missing out on these things won’t kill you, nor would any of them justify impinging on the rights of another human being.
”

Ding ding ding! The desire for sex isn’t morally any different from the desire for, say, a person to play tennis with. Everyone is entitled to actively look around for a tennis partner if they want to. If they’d like to place ads on craigslist looking for a tennis partner, that’s just fine. If they see someone in a cafe and think “I’d really like to play tennis with that person” and then attempt to force that person into playing tennis with them, that is not OK.

This stuff is really, truly not that complicated as long as you recognise the basic personhood of other human beings. Wanting sex is not an excuse for disregarding someone else’s personhood. If wanting sex leads you to disregard the wishes of other people, the problem isn’t the urge for sex – the problem is you.

Simon, speaking as a man who has in fact experienced strong sexual desire, I invite you to go fuck yourself.

Yes. I didn’t have any sex from age 17 to 21. Then shortly after someones birthday where I met, at least for me, a stunningly beautiful, long-limbed, raven-haired young woman, *fast forward* and then when she was naked, put her arms around me, kissed me etc. etc. yes, that was a really strong desire which I felt then.
The thing is, how strong would this desire be if we multiply it by ten times? Or fifty times? Or a hundred times? At some point, that’s just logical, it might be so strong that it can be difficult to control. That’s the most simple, obvious reasoning possible.

There. It was that bit (among others.) When you say that something is in a person’s inherent nature, you are setting the stage for justifying the expression of that nature.

And I am always accused to commit the appeal to nature fallacy… *confused* what if some celebrated philosopher writes an essay, in which he laments that humans are prone to war, does he justify war for you?

The thing is, how strong would this desire be if we multiply it by ten times? Or fifty times? Or a hundred times? At some point, that’s just logical, it might be so strong that it can be difficult to control. That’s the most simple, obvious reasoning possible.

Surely at that point your gonads would explode from your body, fly around the room, and then rocket through the roof into the stratosphere at which point they would spontaneously combust in a flare of radiant light and sizzling hormones? Rape would naturally be the last thing on your mind, at that point.

…And more to the actual point, why are we theoretically multiplying sexual desires now? It’s theoretically impossible to fall off a log — you progressively halve the distance to the ground, and therefore never reach it, it’s just logical — but in the real world it’s a stupid damn scenario. People don’t hover off of logs, and people don’t get their libidos magically multiplied to unstoppable strength. :p

At some point, that’s just logical, it might be so strong that it can be difficult to control. That’s the most simple, obvious reasoning possible.

What if we just make shit up, and pretend it’s logic? What if we pretend humans suddenly become utterly bereft of reason and the capacity to make responsible decisions, just because they’re male and horny? That’s most simple, logical way to make bullshit arguments seem plausible.

Simon, the violent-conflict-is-a-natural-part-of-human-nature thing is used to justify wars. All the time. People say “humans are always fighting each other… so we gotta hit the other guy before he (inevitably) hits us!” or “…so we’re not evil for starting a war, we’re normal!” or “…so pacifism and peace are unreasonable goals, fuck trying them!” or “…so let’s spend a trillion dollars getting really good at it!”

There’s also the fact that it’s irrelevant how strong someone’s desire for sex is, since no level of desire excuses rape. Once again Simon is weaseling around not quite saying what he wants to say, just hinting at it, and then getting all pouty when people point out the implications of what he’s saying.

Also, for bonus lulz – only men have these overpowering sexual urges! Women’s sexual urges are dainty and ladylike, not overwhemling at all.

You know, maybe we female commenters should step back for a while and let the guys bat Simon around like a particularly stubborn football. It’s not like he’s going to listen to anything a woman has to say on this subject, since clearly we cannot fathom the overwhelming male libido. But another man can, right? And yet they still don’t all seem to agree with Simon.

Simon’s convinced that if he gives vague answers that just hint at his belief that some hypothetical person(totally not him) might possibly be forced to do something(not necessarily rape!) unless something or other happens(he completely doesn’t want women be drafted into a sex army to service losers like Simon before they are forced to rape someone!), then no one will know exactly what he’s getting at and he can pretend to be the victim…

… not coincidentally, the same way he’s victimized by women not having sex with him, and gays being gay in public where he can see them.

Nonsense, I’m very happy that women don’t want to have sex with me (or I don’t know if they want it, but at least they didn’t “approach” me except from some single isolated occasions). My god, are you paranoid to think that I want women to be forced to serve my “sexual needs”! For Christ sake, what’s wrong with you, I didn’t write any of that stuff. And stop calling me a loser.

@CassandraSays:

You can backpedal all you want, Simon, but you just revealed exactly how you think about sex above, and it’s the mindset of a rapist through and through.

It’s very sad, that you think that way about me. I would never do such a thing, I can promise you that with all my heart, please believe me. You just can’t make such accusation just because I wrote something in a theoretical manner. That was a thought experiment, speculation, you know? That’s what I do most of the time, but you alway think there’s some hidden evil motivation, that really hurts me.

“That’s funny, because you strike me as the type who’d body-paint himself entirely as a zebra and climb the Empire State Building while throwing increasingly dangerous-to-pedestrians pamphlets promoting homeopathy at the sidewalk, and other stuff I just completely made up.”

Best laugh I had all day.

Also, Simon unravels…well, ok, it was only a matter of time, but still. And I’m still disturbed by how innocently he states it all. I mean, it’s like hearing Mister Rogers do an audio podcast of Lolita.

Simon – When you “just ask questions” that are never things like “what do you people believe about sexual consent?” but things like “well, what if a man was really sexually frustrated and no one would sleep with him, what do you think he should do then?” those aren’t just questions.

I never thought I’d say this, but… I don’t believe you’re that stupid.

Aw, I hurt Simon, the person who described bisexual women such as myself as potential molesters of his disabled sister. I feel so bad.

Also, honestly, the underyling implications of your arguments really aren’t all that hidden. If you honestly fail to see what you’re implying then you may simply not be intelligent enough to participate in this kind of conversation.

Funny thing is, if I remember correctly (SPOILER ALERT: I do.), trolling is something you were vehemently being guilty of not too long ago, on this very website. What do you make of that, Simon? Care to try and make sense this contradictory information?

It was because I wanted to inform me about some issues and so I came into contact with this MRA movement, that was a good time ago and so later I also found by a google search this one here.

But I’ll go… I’ll go, you don’t like me, I know that now.

@Holly Pervocracy:

Simon – When you “just ask questions” that are never things like “what do you people believe about sexual consent?” but things like “well, what if a man was really sexually frustrated and no one would sleep with him, what do you think he should do then?” those aren’t just questions.

I never thought I’d say this, but… I don’t believe you’re that stupid

These words were not meant that way, I beg you to believe me, please, this was an attempt to prove that sexual desire is negative, it was in no way meant to justify rape.

@CassandraSays:

Aw, I hurt Simon, the person who described bisexual women such as myself as potential molesters of his disabled sister. I feel so bad.

You massively distort my argument. I would never fear that you would molest my sister, I just said that I feel uncomfortable that there might be sexual desire towards. That’s very different. I’m very uncomfortable with that idea.

@Dracula:

By the way Simon, if you’re trying imply that I don’t know what real sexual frustration is, don’t fucking bother.

I’ve never understood this sexual frustration thing, I don’t feel frustrated, sometimes I have short sexually charged thoughts, which can happen a couple of times in a month, but I never experienced any ongoing sexual frustration, it’s just that I feel negative about this kind of sexual desire when you’re actually having sex. But I’ll shut up, you get so damn angry about everything.

Sexual desire isn’t inherently negative though, is the thing. If it feels negative to you when you experience it then that doesn’t mean that everyone else is failing to realize how negative it is, it means that you need therapy to figure out why it feels negative to you.

Poor snookums. All he did was justify rape and attack gay people (oh, no, I mean he asked questions justifying rape and attacking gay people, he just wanted to know about these things, that’s all) and people were mean to him.

Snookums shouldn’t have to think difficult thoughts like “what if some of those people were rape survivors and/or gay?”, certainly.

Can David please just ban this moron already? Not because he’s icky, but because every single comment thread in which he posts (which, oh hey, seems to be every single comment thread) somehow turns into being All. About. Simon.

Poor snookums. All he did was justify rape and attack gay people (oh, no, I mean he asked questions justifying rape and attacking gay people, he just wanted to know about these things, that’s all) and people were mean to him.

Please, I want you to believe me that I absolutely didn’t want to justify rape, because this is not true. Absolutely not, and I want you to believe me. And I’m sorry for everything bad I said about gay people, I want to apologize for that earnestly.

Sexual desire may be a negative thing for you, Simon, but when you agree with the notion that men are inherently prone to rape, you’re not only weaseling out of responsibility for your own emotional problems, you’re saying shit about men in general I find extremely fucking offensive, given that I am one.

So yes, I get angry about a lot of things you say. A lot things you say are insulting.

Seriously??? In the vast majority of cases a woman is not on a date to “convince” a guy to have sex with her and he is not on the date to be “convinced” by her. It’s the other way around. There are exceptions, but it ain’t the rule. Do you not agree?

No, I don’t. Most people want to have sex and, if they’re dating other people, it means that they are interested in those people.

Awwww… poor Simon, I called him a name when he said that rape is inevitable if women don’t give a hypothetical man(NOT HIM!!!) sex.

But yeah, Raincitygirl has a point too. Simon turns comment threads into “look at me hypothetically defend the worst possible off-topic position so I can play victim when people criticize me” nonsense.

Sexual desire may be a negative thing for you, Simon, but when you agree with the notion that men are inherently prone to rape, you’re not only weaseling out of responsibility for your own emotional problems, you’re saying shit about men in general I find extremely fucking offensive, given that I am one.

No, I don’t weasle out, I think this is true… why do you think 99% percent of rapists are men?
But this is different from justifying rape, totally different. And this is not the first time I said that. I think Steven Pinker makes a hell of a lot more sense than you.

Simon, in all seriousness, I also think you need to see a therapist. I’m not trying to be mean when I’m saying this, but it really seems like you have issues regarding sex and human sexuality which would be best resolved in therapy.

And no, men are not prone to rape. Choosing to rape is exactly that, a choice. Its very insulting to say something like that, both to rape victims and to the majority of men in the world who don’t rape. The irony in all this is that MRAs will completely ignore your comment and still keep spreading the lie that feminists think all men are rapists.

Yes. I didn’t have any water for the past day or so. Then, earlier today I found, at least for me, a stunningly delicious looking lemonade with ice, *fast forward* and then when I brought the glass up to my lips, felt the cool liquid seeping down my parched throat etc. etc. yes, that was a really strong desire which I felt then.
The thing is, how strong would this desire be if we multiply it by ten times? Or fifty times? Or a hundred times? At some point, that’s just logical, it might be so strong that it can be difficult to control. That’s the most simple, obvious reasoning possible.

If you don’t want to be seen as a bigot, just stop arguing. Back off. Go to a different website. Don’t come back, or come back to participate in good faith in the discussion about the actual post. (“Don’t come back” might be simpler.)

But you’re not going to convince us you were a lovely person all along so stop trying.

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter -- misogyny and hate -- there's really no way it could be.