UPDATE: I note this post at Episcopal Cafe which questions whether the communique was put together in a manner fitting the signatures being collected up with it, as though all signing all knew what to which their names were being put.

21 comments:

When I read that list of 17 Primates, I was struck by the many connections we in NZ have with each of the Provinces named.

Through the work of NZCMS, I grew up in an Anglican church praying for NZ missionaries who were working there, and praying for their bishops (even though I often had little idea how to pronounce their names). And those connections remain even now.

I hope the Ma Whea commission will consider these communion perspectives as well and not just adopt a parochial context for our church.

Part of the pain of our church's drifting into the orbit of TEC is the distance it places between us and our brothers and sisters in the Global South.

Thinking Anglicans doesn't seem to be too impressed. As in "Blah blah Blah HATE Blah Blah Blah." To which the GS Primates would likely respond "Thinking Who?" What is becoming increasingly obvious is that (the little that remains of) Liberal Christianity is irrelevant outside of the bureaucratic structures of the Anglican Communion. The Church is moving on. It is leaving the dead to bury their own dead.

The difficulty with “unity”, Ron, is that in Christian Gospel terms it needs to be a function of creedal reality. After all, the fourfold notes/marks of the Church are the result of a Nicene Orthodoxy: that’s the format of Nicaea-Constantinople, the bedrock of the oikoumene.

So when certain branches of the AC willfully depart from Orthodox belief and practice - and I’ve heard the current PB of TEC in the flesh say some pretty weird theological things, let alone other folks! - then something needs to be done. True; one could and should debate what that “something” might be. In North America, there are a number of strategies currently in play. And Peter has begun that discussion here on ADU under his threads, “The case for staying”, and, “Stay or Go?”.

So I sense, Ron, we should make any talk of “damage” into a seriously two-way street - or even like L’Étoile in Paris! Honesty and humility demand it.

On the contrary, statements like this: "I wonder where the Global South (GAFCON!) Primates will choose to meet next. They must have lots of Air Points by now. Who is funding all of this world travel There must be little to do back home, one might think - Oh, except for graft, persecution, etc.?" and similar comments you have made in the past are statements of hatred, as they do not at all deal with the issues, but merely attack people personally.

"only an estimation of damage done to the Communion by conservative Primates backing out of Indaba."

The damage was done by TEC. GAFCON was a result of TEC thumbing it's nose at the rest of the Communion and refusing to abide by the agreed upon moratorium on the ordination of practicing homosexuals.

". But if the GS Primates don't want to sit down with TEC and the A.C. of C, at the Table of the Lord then the prospects of Unity seems lost."

Why should they sit down with TEC? Like our own St. Matthews in the City, much of the leadership of TEC has abandoned the Gospel of Christ for the false gospel of liberalism.

"But if the GS Primates don't want to sit down with TEC and the A.C. of C, at the Table of the Lord then the prospects of Unity seems lost."

Its certainly an acknowledgment that unity is not there at present. But as for the prospect being lost, I don't think the Global South leaders would ever write anyone off. For instance, if TEC and ACoC acknowledge that they have departed from catholic and apostolic faith, and that they must repent, then I am sure communion could be restored very quickly.

But you are correct: at the present time, the leaders of most of the world's Anglicans decline to have communion with the leadership of TEC and ACofC (although they will have communion with the orthodox bishops within TEC).

Even in many non-Global South provinces that is largely the case: When the leader of TEC, Katherine Schori, visited Australia a couple of years ago, only one diocese was prepared to receive her.

Our own Christchurch diocese did not officially receive KJS and as I understand it Bishop Victoria forbade ordinands to attend her meetings.

A large majority of Anglicans, not just those in GAFCON and the FCA, are fed up with trouble and disunity the leadership of TEC has selfishly caused, not to mention the outright creedal heresy that is being promted.

Hi Shawn,I cannot comment on your remark that ordinands were forbidden to attend ++KJS's meeting when she was in NZ: I had not ever heard that.

The invitation to visit Christchurch was made by the Maori bishop resident in Christchurch, +John Gray, and the welcome was to the HQ of his hui amorangi, Te Wai Pounamou. As part of that visit ++KJS was welcomed in a powhiri which (as I recall) included members of the Diocese of Christchurch. +Victoria was overseas at that time so understandably was not able to either physically or officially welcome ++KJS to her Diocese.

From Ron. Lightly moderated as too many assumptions of a doubtful nature are packed into the last sentence.

""Our own Christchurch diocese did not officially receive KJS and as I understand it Bishop Victoria forbade ordinands to attend her meetings."

- Shawn -

Wrong again, Shawn! As Peter says, our local Maori Bishop received TEC's Primate, The Rt. Revd Katharine Jefferts-Schori on the local marae. I guess you didn't get an invite - loving in Auckland and all?

That is not to say that any other 'ad hominem' or 'ad hominem' type remark is intrinsically acceptable. The remark about 'wolves away from the sheep' is questionable. I let it through because I understand 'wolves' here to refer to false teachers, and there is considerable debate around the Angli-net about just how close an adherent to orthodox doctrine the PB of TEC is.

Anyway, Peter I am happy to abide by your rule regarding that comment. I would only point out that I my intention was solely to use Biblical language to highlight KJS's extremely questionable theology.

I'm a little surprised, Bryden, given your enthusiasm for the Communion Partners (quasi-TEC) and the Global South contingency, that you were not personaly present at the Bangkok Meeting. I'm sure your presence would have heartened the delegates, and shown the support of a smallish number of conservativs from ACANZP.

However, I do wonder in what particular way you consider this gathering as 'a glorious antidote' to damage done to the Communion - in light of the fact that at least some of those present would have aided and abetted the schismatic breakup of the Anglican Communion.

I do not consider the self-styled 'Communion Partners' to have been a significant representation from TEC

"in light of the fact that at least some of those present would have aided and abetted the schismatic breakup of the Anglican Communion"

Now, that's hardly fair, Father Ron. I really doubt that anyone at that meeting had aided and abetted TEC's schismatic attempt to breakup the Anglican Communion! Fortunately, the vast majority in the Anglican Communion are determined to hold firm against attempts by the liberals to depart from classic anglicanism.

"I do not consider the self-styled 'Communion Partners' to have been a significant representation from TEC"

No, but the representatives of most the world's Anglican DID consider the Communion Partners to be a significant representation from TEC, and that is what's important, isn't it? You or I might have our opinions, but they don't really count compared to the primates, bishops and other leaders of the Global South.

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Anglican Down Under

Welcome to this blog on Anglican, theological, biblical and other matters, mostly missional or liturgical (but I reserve the right to write about cricket). It is grounded in some islands at the bottom of the world which, together with a large island to our west, constitute fabulous Down Under.

Sometimes I pursue such a fine centrist line that I annoy people on either side of the line. If you do not like being annoyed then you know what to do.

I work for the Diocese of Christchurch and for Theology House, Christchurch. Views expressed here are not necessarily the views of either organisation. But I harbour the hope that what I say here is helpful to those with whom I am in fellowship because of these two entities!

ACANZP

ACANZP stands for Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia. In Aotearoa New Zealand this church is also known as Te Haahi Mihinare - The Missionary Church. (I work in ministry training and theological education in this church as Director of Education and Director of Theology House in the Diocese of Christchurch. Views expressed here are personal and not those of the Diocese, but the intent is not to express any personal views contradictory of the Diocese's).

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Show us anything clearly set forth in Holy Scripture that we do not teach and we will teach it. Show us anything in our teaching or practice is clearly contrary to Holy Scripture, and we will abandon it.

Stephen Neill

For the glory of God is a human being fully alive, and the glory of humanity is the vision of God.

St Irenaeus

Fundamentally the Gospel is obsessed with the idea of the unity of human society.

Masure

We have returned to the Apostles and the old Catholic Fathers. We have planted no new religion, but only preserved the old that was undoubtedly founded and used by the Apostles of Christ and other holy Fathers of the Primitive Church.

Bishop Jewel

Preachers shall behave themselves modestly and soberly in every department of their life. But especially shall they see to it that they teach nothing in the way of a sermon, which they would have religiously held and believed by the people, save what is agreeable to the teaching of the Old or New Testament, and what the Catholic fathers and ancient bishops have collected from this selfsame doctrine.

Canon 6 from the 1571 Bishop’s Convocation

Kent: "See better, Lear, and let me still remain."

William Shakespeare

For the clarity that we are aiming at is indeed complete clarity. But this simply means that the philosophical problems should completely disappear. Wittgenstein

Justice is eternal, and doesn't depend at all on human conventions.

Montesquieu

The real challenge of Islam to Western intellectual discourse is for us to ask ourselves whether our unprecedented modern experiment of conducting political life with no transcendent values is really working out as well as we once hoped.

Harvey Cox

The long-term happiness of a society depends on how individuals behave towards each other, how families hold together, and how leaders keep the trust of people.

William Hague

Where orthodoxy is optional, orthodoxy will sooner or later be proscribed.

John Neuhaus

To be an evangelical is not, first and foremost, about doctrinal correctness, but about a passion for the gospel of salvation from sin through Christ for eternity.

John Richardson

Neither may we ... lightly esteem what hath been allowed as fit in the judgement of antiquity, and by the long continued practice of the whole church; from which unnecessarily to swerve, experience hath never as yet found it safe.

Richard Hooker (Lawes, V.7.1)

The function of the Christian canon was to separate the apostolic witness from the ongoing tradition of the church, whose truth was continually in need of being tested by the apostolic faith.

Brevard S. Childs

Every word of God proves true. (Proverbs 30:5)

If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed.

Muhammad ibn Zakariya Razi

Change comes through ordinary working people organising themselves to struggle for a better world day in, day out.

Morning Star newspaper editorial Tuesday 5 May 2015

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James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

Something to think about

Given that, like it or not, much Anglican Communion trouble at root is about dispute over what the church should teach about homosexuality, two papers here may be helpful. They represent, in my view, some of the best arguments for and against setting aside or obeying Scripture's teaching. If only the authors were Anglican ...

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For people for whom NZ English is not their native tongue here are some translations of regular Maori words used here or in linked articles: Aotearoa: name for New Zealand; aroha: love; Ariki: lord; Atua: God; hui: gathering, assembly, conference; hui amorangi: regional area under leadership of regional bishop within Te Pihopatanga o Aotearoa (Diocese of Aotearoa); kai: food; kai moana: sea food; Ihu: Jesus; iwi: tribe; Karaiti: Christ; Kotahitanga/Te Kotahitanga: within ACANZP, the council responsible for drawing together the hopes and aspirations of the three tikanga for theological education and ministry training and transforming them into policy and into recommendations to the St John's College Trust Board for expenditure of educational funds; also the Board of Governors of St John's College (the primary, but not the only object of SJCTB expenditure); koha: gift, responsive gift to hospitality offered; mana: power, respect, honour; marae: community meeting area, including meeting hall and dining room; mihi: speech; moana: sea, ocean; pihopa: bishop; pihopatanga: bishopric, diocese; powhiri: welcome ceremony; rangimarie: peace; tangata: people; tangi: funeral; taonga: treasure; tikanga: culture, cultural stream, within ACANZP: one of the three strands, Maori [Te Pihopatanga o Aotearoa], Pakeha [NZ Dioceses], or Pasefika (Diocese of Polynesia) which make up our whole church under the authority of General Synod while being self-governing for many aspects of church life in each of the tikanga; waiata: song; wairua: spirit; Wairua Tapu: Holy Spirit; waka: canoe; whanau: family, extended family.