[Discussion] What can you say about Togashi deconstructing shounen tropes in HxH?

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Re: What can you say about Togashi deconstructing shounen tropes in HxH?

That page will be the end of me, I swear. Must. Resist.

I think I spent at least 2 hours at a time on TVTropes. Plus, under the individual character tropes (i.e. Gon, Killua, etc), they use images from the 2011 anime and those are fairly updated. So I don't think it's out of date, either.

Re: What can you say about Togashi deconstructing shounen tropes in HxH?

How is HxH not supposed to be serious?

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Also, I think I should clear this up in case others misinterpreted what shounen means. I know I have. Technically, shounen isn't a 'genre', but a demographic. HxH's target audience are young pre-teen/teenage boys (hence, shounen). However, it also attracts other audiences, as with a lot of mangas nowadays. Still, it's target audience would first and foremost be young boys.

TvTropes will better explain this, I think. Basically, HxH is a shounen manga by virtue of it's publisher (Jump) and target audience, but it caters to a lot of other demographics because I believe it has Multiple Demographic Appeal.

With all the linking I do here, I think I might as well join the TvTrope forums and edit pages too. But no. I. Must. Resist.

Are you two just trying to misinterpret what i'm saying? Is there a communication barrier? A language barrier? I am referring to the sub-sect of shounen manga that doesn't even take itself seriously. Shit like Bleach where the main character is 1000x stronger in one fortnight because he entered an alternate dimension where time progresses at a millionth the speed of normal time. Card board cut-out characters that possess incredible strength because of their undying will to Protect Somebody Important ("resolve"). Characters that are stratospherically strong because they possess indescribable talent. Or the converse: guys who have shit for talent, but still somehow become demonically strong, usually because of some cliched motivating factor. Now you could do a "deconstruction" on these genre cliches if you want: ohh, the human condition of an undying, invincible god that has lived for centuries; oh, the sacrifices one must make, in reality, to obtain great power; oh the death of a main character - no, really, you can. But it would be absolutely missing the point. All of these genre tropes are designed to illicit a feel-good response. They are not intended to portray the lives of the characters with any degree of authenticity or verisimilitude. They are there because they are nice and easy to aspire to for the target audience, and it's cool. To "deconstruct" shounen tropes is no different from deconstructing the characters in a comedy. For the avoidance of doubt, what I am trying to communicate is that it is absolutely pointless: the characters in many comedies are merely VEHICLES for humor.

Now, a deconstruction would be something like Godfather. Historically, many movies have portrayed the mafia as the bad guys. Some action movies don't take themselves seriously of course, and the mafia are basically fodder for the hero to kill. But there are films that do attempt to do a mafia story, and really are trying to make a point. Godfather was probably one of the first to offer a different perspective: a candid view of the members of criminal organizations. Yes, they are murderers but the sort of emotional complexity these characters have, and the way they respond/act in their condition, was something incredibly revolutionary at the time.

A borderline example of a deconstruction would be something like Watchmen. Apparently some people do take comic book heroes seriously. I personally thought it was laughable and simply saw the movie as a self-contained narrative without feeling the need to draw any parallels to other comic book superheroes.

Re: What can you say about Togashi deconstructing shounen tropes in HxH?

Relax, I was just poking fun. Although I probably misinterpreted your words too. Alright, I'll read over what you said again.

Originally Posted by mousiehamster

But generally speaking, shounen inherently isn't a genre of art that takes itself seriously, or expects the audience to take it seriously, and the themes are by design simple and absolute.

Originally Posted by mousiehamster

I am referring to the sub-sect of shounen manga that doesn't even take itself seriously. Now you could do a "deconstruction" on these genre cliches if you want. But it would be absolutely missing the point. All of these genre tropes are designed to illicit a feel-good response. They are not intended to portray the lives of the characters with any degree of authenticity or verisimilitude. They are there because they are nice and easy to aspire to for the target audience, and it's cool. To "deconstruct" shounen tropes is no different from deconstructing the characters in a comedy. For the avoidance of doubt, what I am trying to communicate is that it is absolutely pointless: the characters in many comedies are merely VEHICLES for humor.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with works that don't take itself seriously, precisely for the reasons you've already said. The point of shounen tropes is to elicit a feel-good response; to be an escape from reality; for comedy; etc...

Whereas the point of deconstructing a trope is to enhance realism. Some tropes (like shounen tropes, as you've said) were made not to be taken seriously. Take that trope and apply Real Life consequences to it, and then you have a deconstructed trope.

Some people have described HxH as an 'intelligent' manga, in the sense that you need to remember a lot of details and the exposition/explanations are wordy, and even info-dumpy (I still remember Killua's talk about politics during the Ant arc). In a way, you have to take HxH more seriously than other shounen titles, if only because of the complicated exposition/explanations, and if only because HxH itself takes itself seriously. HxH isn't your typical shounen, but it's still shounen.

I actually find it ironic how shounen isn't meant to be taken seriously. And yet we have threads with titles like this and this.

Originally Posted by mousiehamster

Now, a deconstruction would be something like Godfather. Godfather was probably one of the first to offer a different perspective: a candid view of the members of criminal organizations. Yes, they are murderers but the sort of emotional complexity these characters have, and the way they respond/act in their condition, was something incredibly revolutionary at the time.

Then what about Meruem?

Granted, Your Mileage May Vary on this one, whether Togashi successfully deconstructed this trope or not. I think it's at least an attempt though, of making a realistic caricature of a cosmic super invincible hard-to-defeat baddie with a god complex. At least when compared to DBZ villains, and I consider DBZ to be the most shounen of all shounen. Haha.

Originally Posted by mousiehamster

For something to be a deconstruction it must, imo, provoke the audience to critically reflect upon the truth, falsity or self-contradiction of established genre conventions.

Isn't that what we're already doing? Lol. And it's not like HxH deconstructed every shounen trope in existence (Alluka's powers, anyone?). It's just that some people think it deconstructed a lot of shounen tropes enough for it to be noticeable, thus saying that HxH itself is/could be a deconstruction of tropes.

I've seen this said in TvTropes so much. I think that at least shows that HxH provokes some of its readers to critically reflect upon established genre conventions.

I've seen this said in TvTropes so much that I wondered what you guys think of this. Hence the thread. Hence our discussion.

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If I'm still misinterpreting what you said, do tell. Like I said in the first post, I created this thread to better understand deconstruction too, and not jut to discuss HxH deconstructions. And don't get me started on Reconstruction. I have zero understanding of it as applied in literary works.

If it's worth anything, I sometimes feel that Togashi isn't deconstructing shounen tropes for the sake of deconstruction. Maybe he does sometimes, to poke fun at the tropes. But overall, I think the deconstructions are just there because that's how Togashi imagined the world for HxH. That's just how HxH came out. I guess that's where we both agree: HxH is "...Togashi's imaginary world, with his rules and his way of thinking."

It's just that I think the way HxH came out, it was a deconstruction of tropes from the very beginning.

But who knows what Togashi is ever thinking. All we know is that the man is a genius.

Re: What can you say about Togashi deconstructing shounen tropes in HxH?

I note a violent tone in your words. Calm down, I'm not trying to insult or anything.

I understand your point very well. I personally think that Manga and all form of comics are a reflection of reality, and everything that defines itself as an structure able to reproduce itself as cliche, trends and styles have the inner characteristic of being a trope.

To understand better this there is the origin of the word meme which is a word taken form sociology. You can consider it a joke, but because you focus yourself into different stuff. Well, maybe with this I'm taking too much liberties. Let's go back a little bit.

I know people who believes you can't make a deconstruction for a movie because every movie is itself its own cannon, which makes impossibles to deconstruct because the rules are the ones imposed by the movie. Yes, there is genres. Manga has also them. And it's longer.

Deconstruction in this case (HxH) shows how some cliches are there and are being questioned. Togashi even uses his manga to denounce some acts in the world with clever tricks. This is nothing too unknown, actually, but for a shounen it's pretty much risky.

Saying that Godfather is a deconstruction and not HxH is due your vision on manga and your comment about taking ti seriously makes me wonder if you takes seriously Godfather. Isn't it entertainment as well? It uses different resources, but is also telling a fantasy story. The difference with HxH is solely its functional magic. The relations, the speeches, the way how some issues are dealt are different but in the same level.

The Sky is pouring
The wind is blowing
The sea looks red,
a surging sea of flames
looks like the entrance to hell
'Perfect', the captain said.