Dear all,
I'd like to change some order on Seoul F2F Agenda [1].
If possible I'd like to move the time up one and half hour
about "Korean input on BP 2.0 document". (15:00 -> 13:30)
And I'd like to extend the discussion time for half hour. (total 1 hour)
Please think about it.
Best Regards,
--- Jonathan Jeon
[1] http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd3jk8v_89f6vrqk9w
-----Original Message-----
From: public-bpwg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-bpwg-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Francois Daoust
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:30 AM
To: public-bpwg@w3.org
Subject: [minutes] Thursday 28 February 2008 Teleconf
Hi,
The minutes for today's call are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html
... and copied as text below.
Unless Zakim tries to confuse us, someone attended the call and is
listed as "1.781.267.aaaa". If you attended the call but are not listed
in the Present list below, let me know!
Francois.
New actions:
ACTION: achuter Discuss on the list THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
ACTION: Dan to create an issue to start bringing together potential test
cases.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
ACTION: daoust to make sure next calls will stick to european time
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
28 Feb 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0157.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-irc
Attendees
Present
AlanT, DKA, Jeff, Kai, Magnus, MartinJ,
Shah, Yeliz, abel, achuter, adam, francois, jo, miguel, nacho
Regrets
Dom, drooks, kemp, srowen, EdM, rob, Tony, chaals, hgerlach
Chair
Jo
Scribe
DKA
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]US clock change
2. [6]Decision on Zaragoza
3. [7]Task force report: Content Transformation
4. [8]MobileOK Pro
5. [9]Korea F2F Agenda Discussion
6. [10]Accessibility
7. [11]BP 2.0
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
Topics: Administrivia
US clock change
<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: BPWG Call to stay on Euro Time till March
30th
Jo: We won't be having a call next week - the next call will be the
13th.
... Proposal to stay on european time - GMT - during the US time
change.
<jo> RESOLUTION: BPWG Call to stay on Euro Time till March 30th
Decision on Zaragoza
<francois> ACTION: daoust to make sure next calls will stick to
european time [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-675 - Make sure next calls will stick
to european time [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-06].
Jo: We had to make a decision quickly and the results of the poll
point to 16-20 of June.
... Registration will start soon.
Nacho: the formal decisions have happened from both bp and dd
groups. Right now I'm waiting for some information and I will send
the details to the list next week.
Jo: Thanks.
Task force report: Content Transformation
<francois> [14]latest draft
[14]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080227
Francois: I would like to present the latest draft to the working
group.
... Summarizing: what needs to be done before we go to fpwd and
afterwards.
... We had a lot of discussion on scope and this is what we agreed.
... First, [burst of music], extending http for communications
between the different actors is not the way to go - it's beyond our
charter and http isn't open for modifications - not flexible enough.
... The big CT picture could take into account OMA DPE, W3C DCCI, or
Powder.
... So we decided to stick with existing technologies and try to
avoid new http headers. It's not settled if we need one or not at
the moment.
... As legacy browsers are the target for the moment, we decided to
leave the browser aside and so communications between CT proxy and
user must be through web pages. Future browsers may add
cache-control no-transform header.
... These are the two main points. Now there are 2 things that need
to be answered before fpwd.
... First is regarding the way the CT proxy works. We haven't had
time in the last call to take a resolution. How should the proxy
work - should it do "content tasting" - sending an http request,
looking at the answer to see if it is correct?
... Does it have to change the user agent? If there is no need to
change the user agent, then we probably don't need any additional
http headers.
<jeffs> "tasting" should read "testing"
Francois: Second big question: something introduced in last draft -
use of POWDER. POWDER could be used on the server side.
... do we have a dependency on powder or do we just want to
reference powder. It doesn't exist - it's at fpwd at the moment. So
we might run into the same problem we've had with xhtml basic -
waiting for Powder.
<Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that this depends on how DRs are
discoverable
Kai: Info on POWDER - we have 2 types of documents, the web resoruce
and the description that describes the web resource.
... We are discussing URI schemes.
... wrt content tasting, 2 ways to do it - look at the resource
itself or look at the description resources. Because of the problems
we've discovered with numerical URIs, it is under discussion to
close off tasting through tasting descripion resources but this is
not prefered.
Jo: Any other questions on POWDER or CT?
... I think we're going to spend some time in Korea discussing these
issues.
... We may not be able to take resolutions in Korea but we will be
able to make some progress in workshopping these issues.
MobileOK Pro
Kai: draft is finished. It's out there, please look at it. In the
mail I posted I mentioned the task force would ask the main group to
make this a fpwd.
... also emulator code has been pasdsed to Dave Rooks.
... Progress has been good.
Jo: We'll be addressing this also in Korea.
<francois> [15]mobileOK Pro doc
[15]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/mobileOKPro/drafts/ED-mobileOK-pro10-tests-20080228
Korea F2F Agenda Discussion
<jo> [16]Draft Agenda for F2F
[16] http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dd3jk8v_89f6vrqk9w
<francois> DKA: I put together an agenda. Problem is we'll have a
restricted number of participants. I included some time to get input
from Korean people
<francois> ... to see what would be useful to have in BP2.0
<francois> ... some time for the CT TF, mobileOK Pro TF
<francois> ... The more time we can spend flushing things in
documents, the better
<francois> ... as opposed to taking resolutions as we'll be a small
number of participants
Accessibility
Jo: Where did we get to?
Alan: Tab order.
<achuter>
[17]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/d
rafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#TAB_ORDER
[17]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#TAB_ORDER
Jo: Any comments?
... Tables_alternatives
Alan: this one is odd but some users might find it more complicated.
... This is in the mobile context use an alternative not on all
contexts.
Kai: [censored]
Jo: We need to say that there is no added benefit for users with
disabilities and move on. I think we should remain silent on whether
it makes it more difficult for users with disabilities.
... let's move on to tables_layout
Alan: there are 2 aspecst - using a table for layout might cause
incorrect reading order.
... If you use tables for layout, it's difficult for the user to
modifyt the layout by using their own stylesheet.
Jo: Most mobile browsers do support tables so the comment about
non-support might not be correct.
<jeffs> do not use tables for layout
Jo: Moving on to nested_tables
+1
tables_nested
Alan: if tables are nested for layout then for a screen reading user
it makes it very confusing. So it's best avoided.
Jo: Other comments on tables_nested?
... Tables_support?
... No added benefit.
Alan: yes.
Jo: testing.
[long pause]
Jo: It helps to some degree but it won't give you a benefit.
... Other comments?
... Thematic Consistency?
... I think this could do with more. Can we put a pin in this
discussion and we can raise an issue on the list to discuss it?
Alan: the concept is the same - access the same content from a range
of devices and also with a range of user abilities.
<achuter> ACTION: achuter Discuss on the list THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-676 - Discuss on the list
THEMATIC_CONSISTENCY [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-03-06].
Jo: The point of the best practice is the other way around - what
we're saying you shouldn't do is to provide pages with different
meanings from the same URI depending on the circumstances of the
access. Example of bbc.co.uk/mobile which provides mobile-friendly
content if you're on a mobile devices and instructions for use of
mobile if you're on a PC - this is not best practice.
... Moving on - URIs.
Alan: Users especially with motor disabilities might have difficulty
typing them in the same way that a user of a mobile device has
trouble typing them on a keypad.
Jo: Anybody got anything else?
... Moving on - use of color.
<jeffs> add anything on greyscale?
<Kai> if you are curious
[19]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/mobileOKPro/dra
fts/ED-mobileOK-pro10-tests-20080228#use_of_color
[19]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/mobileOKPro/drafts/ED-mobileOK-pro10-tests-20080228#use_of_color
Alan: User of the mobile device might not see the color because of
bad ambient lighting, other users might not see the color at all
either because they can't see or because they have color perception
deficits. So it's comon cause.
<Emmanuel> I am only on IRC not dialed into call
Jeff: Putting in 2 worth - choosing colors that go to greyscale
properly.
Jo: We don't have that in BP1 but maybe we could put it in BP2.
Jeff: Yes I tell my students there.
I suggest you send something to the list on that, Jeff?
<jeffs> will send something to list on color choices and decay to
greyscale
Alan: it's not about using high contrast colors but rather not using
colors to convey information (e.g. red means stop).
Thanks.
Jo: We had a formula in the BP document but we removed it at one
point.
<achuter> Under URIS change d in WCAG 1.0. to 2.0
Yeliz: UI wanted to say about keep URIs of entry points short - that
should refer to 2.0 not 1.0.
Jo: Valid Markup - last one of the document.
Alan: This one corresponds to a 1.0 checkpoint but at 2.0 they
removed requirement for valid code at one stage and then changed it
to "Well formed" markup.
... The arguments in the wcag working group is that it doesn't give
accessibilty benefit. Does it bring a benefit or not?
Jo: I don't think it's for us to judge.
... It does give you WCAG (2.0) compliance.
Alan: Yes but it's hard to justify whether it brings benefits to
users with disabilities.
Jo: We're done with that document for now.
... You're able to make changes now you've been waiting to make.
Yeliz made some contributions and those can be folded in as well.
OK?
... Thanks again, Alan.
... BP 2.0 - discussion of recent inputs on the mailing list.
BP 2.0
DKA: Have RIT done anything on scripting that we could bring into
next week's f2f?
Jeff: I don't know that I have anything concrete to contribute until
what scripting.
... Seperate javascript into seperate files for PC sites and for
mobile it makes more sense to put it inline.
... I'll try to get some some written materials to the list by the
weekend.
<dom> [Adam's mail on AJAX being an opportunity to reduce network
access problems took me aback, but sounds very interesting to me]
<dom> [dom's random thought of the day]
Adam: one suggestion was not to build the DOM on device but to send
the whole html vs building the DOM on the device - trade offs there
where it might make sens to do some experimentation.
<jeffs> will go for obvious general-level javascript BP, like inline
vs separate files etc...
DKA: that sounds relevant.
<jo> [in response to Dom's, Jo's random thought is that the best
place to take into account "dynamic" properties of the device is in
the client and not to use OMA DPE]
Adam: I could do a simple test case for this.
DKA: Could Francois set up a space for the bp 2.0 doc test cases?
<scribe> ACTION: Dan to create an issue to start bringing together
potential test cases. [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-677 - Create an issue to start bringing
together potential test cases. [on Daniel Appelquist - due
2008-03-06].
Jo: I'm going to end the meeting there.
<Kai> Enjoy Seoul!! I would like to be there.
Jo: That's it. Bye!
<abel> bye
<yeliz> byee
Bye!
<Magnus> yes
<miguel> bye
<francois> zakmi, list attendees
<Magnus> oops i left
Summary of Action Items
[see top of email]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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