What you've described is absolutely antithetical to Catholic teaching. Thanks for pointing out what not to do.

He is arguing that the teaching is defective and as such the defective teaching--which of course does not encourage sin as a matter of teaching--in practice leads people to the absurd conclusions they come to.

He is arguing that the teaching is defective and as such the defective teaching--which of course does not encourage sin as a matter of teaching--in practice leads people to the absurd conclusions they come to.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. Some EO go too far and worship icons or turn them into objects of superstition. That doesn't make the teaching on icons defective. What he described goes against both letter and spirit of Catholic teaching on the matter.

All truths get twisted by some people. That doesn't invalidate the truths.

What I said was there is no such thing as "venial sin" sin Orthodoxy, and that the differences in degrees of sin are based on how easily remedied they are. Here's what I actually said: In Roman Catholicism, a "venial sin" does not, by definition, lead to spiritual death. In Orthodoxy, there is no such thing as a venial sin, since all sins cut us off from God and lead to spiritual death, the only difference is that some are remedied easier than others.

And this is where I accuse you of arguing for the sake of arguing as well as willful dissimulation. A concept of “venial” sin can be seen within Orthodoxy (can you go back and read the sources that I cited please). There is a jump in logic within your argument wherein, in Orthodoxy, a minor sin –by itself, and immediately repented of…a ‘non-serial’ sin- does not lead to immediate spiritual death, but rather adds to a predisposition for later sin. There are, however, some sins that lead to almost immediate spiritual death, even after a single commission. The factors of how and why differ by person and by sin and so neat lists of mortal and venial sin according to the Orthodox view are impossible to create. That does not, however, negate the fact that some sins are more serious than others.

As far as the Catholic position, which btw you seem to lack in citations supporting your view, I would refer you back to the official RC Catechism:

Quote

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist even though it offends and wounds it. (emphasis mine)

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good […] Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin.

1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself...

(i.e. eventually leads to spiritual death).

Exactly how is that so different from your description of the Orthodox position?

The factors of how and why differ by person and by sin and so neat lists of mortal and venial sin according to the Orthodox view are impossible to create.

And the same for us. There is a lot of gray area not just in the sins themselves, but also in the motivation and state of mind behind the sins. Which is why we are told to just pour out our hearts in confession.

And the same for us. There is a lot of gray area not just in the sins themselves, but also in the motivation and state of mind behind the sins. Which is why we are told to just pour out our hearts in confession.

Well, you guys can't be wrong in everything.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

"You still don't get it. What you call a "venial" sin and what you call a "mortal sin" are both terminal illnesses in the Orthodox Church. One is not "like" catching a cold at all."

We all sin every day in various ways. Not all are treated the same by the Eastern Church. Some sins carry the punishment of complete excommunication, some carry the punishment of being barred from Holy Communion for a length of time, some have no punishment. So while the Eastern Church hasn't used the definitions of venial and mortal the idea that some sins rupture ones relation with Christ and His Church completely or partially and others are missing the mark of perfection we are all to aim for have certainly been there.

Not all are treated the same by the Eastern Church. Some sins carry the punishment of complete excommunication, some carry the punishment of being barred from Holy Communion for a length of time, some have no punishment.

In Orthodoxy, sins are spiritual illness requiring treatment. Untreated, all and any of these spiritual illnesses will lead to spiritual death. The only sense in which Orthodoxy understands sins to be "less serious" is in the sense that they are illnesses which are easier to treat. But left untreated, they will lead to spiritual death as certainly as the "most serious" sin will.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 09:21:36 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

How about this analogy, George . . . I know no analogy is perfect, but I think this one is an improvement over the cold-pneumonia one. Maybe we can come to more agreement on this one. I really don't think we're far off, ultimately.

Some sins are like flesh wounds. They don't kill you, but they eventually will if they are unrepented. They are not cauterized and fester. You'll eventually die of infection. If you get too many of these wounds, you'll bleed to death. However, other sins are like a massive heart attack or a horrific car accident. You die (spiritually), and you partake in the mystery of confession to get you going again, and then penances after that which work as rehab to get you restored to full health. Things like daily prayer and fasting are like drinking a glass of V8* every morning, and Holy Communion is an elixir of boundless restorative power (but it doesn't work if you're dead!).

Of course, some other sins might be in between. There's plenty of gray area. So what do we do? Confession, confession, confession. Glory and praise to our merciful God for this sacrament!

[Modified: I forgot I was addressing an Aussie)

* V8 is a notoriously healthy vegetable juice blend here in the States (I say notoriously because it tastes awful)

[Modified: I forgot I was addressing an Aussie) * V8 is a notoriously healthy vegetable juice blend here in the States (I say notoriously because it tastes awful)

I drink V8 every morning! It has 3 serves of veggies. If you don't like the taste, try adding some freshly ground black pepper. There is also a "fruit and vegetable" version. Alternatively, you can add vodka for a salubrious version of a Bloody Mary.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

But that means that they do kill you. You still die because of the wound. If you weren't wounded, you wouldn't die. So I still don't see how it can be considered non (spiritually) fatal.

I might have misunderstood lubeltri's analogy, but I thought he meant that it wouldn't kill you immediately, like something else would, but that it would still be ultimately fatal, even if over a longer time.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

I might have misunderstood lubeltri's analogy, but I thought he meant that it wouldn't kill you immediately, like something else would, but that it would still be ultimately fatal, even if over a longer time.

I drink V8 every morning! It has 3 serves of veggies. If you don't like the taste, try adding some freshly ground black pepper. There is also a "fruit and vegetable" version. Alternatively, you can add vodka for a salubrious version of a Bloody Mary.

You do?! I see you've already got my analogy in mind! Good stuff. I'll hold my nose and drink it, though I'm looking forward to trying your tips to make it palatable. I try to limit fruit juices (save apple cider, which I love)---a lot of sugar in them, which is not so good if you tend to drink too much of it like I do.

So do Priests have the authority to "forgive and absolve" as Peter Moghila's formula says; or do Priests have "no power to forgive sins on earth" as the Greek formula says? Let's see what the Russian Bishops have to say about this. In 1999, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said: So I'm afraid the Russian Bishops aren't as sure as you guys are that Name Worshipping is condemned.

Could you possibly point explain or point me in the direction of info regarding this "name-worship"? I've heard of it in passing but never read anything about it, nor can I seem to find any information.

So do Priests have the authority to "forgive and absolve" as Peter Moghila's formula says; or do Priests have "no power to forgive sins on earth" as the Greek formula says? Let's see what the Russian Bishops have to say about this. In 1999, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said: So I'm afraid the Russian Bishops aren't as sure as you guys are that Name Worshipping is condemned.

George,

While Fr. Tom Hopko was out here I asked him about this difference in absolution between the Greek and Russian Orthodox. He confirmed what you have stated. The Russian formula for absolution is indeed Latin in origin and not Orthodox. He uses a slightly different formula than the Greek one but there is no mention of the priest absolving a pentitant's sins. He said many Orthodox priests now use this corrected version. The article by Bishop Hilarion stresses the need for the Russian Orthodox church to return to its patristic and Byzantine roots to rid itself of Latin scholasticism.From his article:

Quote

7. The renaissance will take place when the heritage of Russian theological scholarship and the experience of the “Paris school” have been assimilated and implemented by Russian theologians.

8. The renaissance will take place when Russian theology frees itself from its “Western captivity,” when it returns its own roots in ancient Christian and Byzantine tradition. This return also requires fresh theological forces and a new, creative approach adopted by all main theological disciplines.

I was surprised by his enthusiastic support for the Paris School. Thank God. Bishop Hilarion is very well respected among the many on both sides of the Atlantic.

You do?! I see you've already got my analogy in mind! Good stuff. I'll hold my nose and drink it, though I'm looking forward to trying your tips to make it palatable. I try to limit fruit juices (save apple cider, which I love)---a lot of sugar in them, which is not so good if you tend to drink too much of it like I do.

Thanks for the tips.

I like to drink V8 room temperature and I savor every last drop! maybe it's my love of tomatoes? Hope I didn't make anyone nauseous...

I drink V8 every morning! It has 3 serves of veggies. If you don't like the taste, try adding some freshly ground black pepper. There is also a "fruit and vegetable" version. Alternatively, you can add vodka for a salubrious version of a Bloody Mary.

I like V8 too. I haven't tried the 'fruit and veg' one yet. Do you recommend it?

To get this back on topic, I was reading this thread because Anglicans have confession as well, and this is an interesting thread (including the beverages )

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis