Your argument from ignorance claim has been a bit overused. I am NOT saying that because you don't know exactly how something happened, then it must be untrue or that "God dunnit". That's a clever little thing that evolutionists do to make Creationists look stupid.

Do you even read what you write before you post it? You are indeed saying that "evolutionists" seemingly can't answer questions like "how did X organism evolve into Y organism" and "why do organisms evolve", and using that as an excuse to reject the whole business. That is a textbook argument from ignorance. If it's overused, it's because creationists "question" evolution based on "I don't know how this works, and your answers don't work for me, therefore it must be wrong" all the time, ignoring the fact that their "questions" are based on false premises.

Quote from: rockv12

BUT, that's ALL evolution has!

Case in point to what I said above.

Quote from: rockv12

Nobody can answer the question, "HOW did it evolve and WHY?"

"How did it evolve" is based on the false premise that the only acceptable "proof" for evolution is a perfect chain linking a predecessor species to a successor species, including every single step in between, or else it's not proved. "Why did it evolve" is based on the equally false premise that an organism had to have a "reason" to evolve, like a person has a reason to choose one car over another. Both, as far as I can tell, are based more off of the idea of Pokemon evolution than anything that exists in reality.

Quote from: rockv12

Now that creates quite the problem, shouldn't it? If it's such a fact and proven, then you'd expect a rational explaination to the questions I've posed.

Nope, no problem. You see, both questions have been legitimately answered, it's only your misconception about what the questions mean that causes problems for you. "How did it evolve" is explained by the processes of heritability, mutation, and natural selection; the short version is that a mutation which affects a heritable trait will be passed down to offspring, detrimental traits will usually prevent survival and thus block the trait from being passed down and advantageous traits will usually enhance survival and allow the trait to be passed down. "Why did it evolve" is because, simply, mutations happen, and if they are detrimental, the organisms will tend to not survive, whereas if they are beneficial, the organisms will tend to survive at a higher rate.

Quote from: rockv12

Nowhere has evolution been witnessed or observed.

You are either misinformed or lying. Evolution is witnessed and observed by scientists performing experiments, such as the one where a strain of E.coli gained the ability to metabolize citric acid. That's an evolutionary change which has been observed. Of course, creationists like to claim that this is just "microevolution", but the fact is that if you have enough small changes happen over time, they add up to a large change eventually.

Quote from: rockv12

Nowhere have we seen a monkey grow into a man.

This is what I meant by Pokemon evolution. Nobody who actually understands evolution will ever try to argue that you'll see a monkey grow into a human.

Quote from: rockv12

And with the millions of examples of "tough" questions about extremely extraordinary species and life forms that can't be explained, HOW is evolution such a good idea?

Millions of examples, huh? This kind of claim is patently ludicrous. It's exactly the kind of exaggeration that creationists love to engage in, nitpicking to the nth degree to pretend that they're asking real questions. You sit here and go, "oh, yeah, explain the middle ear! Explain the inner ear!" etc, and act like those are in any way relevant questions, as if evolution has to give specific examples for anything and everything that you can call to mind or else it's "not very believable".

Quote from: rockv12

Without a God, it's the ONLY explanation, and not a very believable one at that.

Just because you, in your ignorance, don't find it believable because you're constantly making mountains out of pebbles, doesn't mean squat.

Quote from: rockv12

Sound like a 4th grader wrote that? Thanks...

No, but I never suggested you were a 4th grader. It's possible for an adult to be ignorant about a subject, especially when they pretend they actually know yet throw up nonsensical questions which show that they don't really understand at all.

If you're going to claim that you understand evolution, you have to be able to demonstrate that you do. Saying, "I understand it, now let's stay focused on all these nitpicked questions I want you to answer" doesn't fly.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

How can anyone with the name 'Lucifer' or any other of the idiodic names for demons and devils think that the 'others' will take us seriously!? I want to post all kinds of links to this forum but with names like 'Lucifer' and other STUUUUUUPID seeminly evil names are defeating the purpose for other 'innoccent' christians coming on this forum and taking us seriously....

If someone doesn't want to join a forum because of the username of a poster then they probably don't deserve to use the internet in the first place. You seriously think a username is enough to discourage someone from joining here? If that's the case then that person probably wouldn't fit in here anyways, and I'd go so far as to say that person needs to get thicker skin.

We're all big girls and boys here, aren't we?

« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 01:53:54 PM by Emily »

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

You obviously think way too much of christians then I do today. I'm actually being honest, I would've posted a lot more links but there were too many of the "christian" taboo names to post to my "christian" thesits....

But I congratulate you in defending something that is "unreasonable" much like christians do.

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Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

^^^ I suppose "The Lord of the Rings" 1, 2 and 3 could've been combined into 1 Epic movie as well..... Where were you with your insight oh mighty one...

You posted four posts within 25 minutes of each other. Two of those posts were single sentences, none of them were very long. So...how exactly does this compare to the Lord of the Rings movies again?

Seriously, that was a bad example to use, and that is largely why you're getting criticized now. To make matters worse, your recent posts are not making things any better for yourself. The next comment you made was basically you pitching a fit because you got a smite, and now you're harping on usernames. You don't like ones like Lucifer? Fine, bring them up in their own topic. But bringing them up here, with the person who smote you, looks more you're whining than bringing up a legitimate topic.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Problem number one with the above..... Adapting is different than transforming. Lifting weights at the gym will not transform you into the Incredible Hulk. Problem number two.... the earth is NOT millions of years old.

What is going on in here? We didn't evolve from apes? What evolutionary theory do you go by?

Humans and apes share a common ancestor. That's something you should know if you've actually read up on the theory of evolution. You seem to think that 'evolution' has a monkey giving birth to a human. It doesn't state that at all.

Problem number one with the above..... Adapting is different than transforming. Lifting weights at the gym will not transform you into the Incredible Hulk. Problem number two.... the earth is NOT millions of years old.

Here it finally came out, your trump card. Game over.

To be fair, as Emily pointed out, he's right. The Earth is not millions of years old. IIRC it's 4.5 billion years old.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

You obviously think way too much of christians then I do today. I'm actually being honest, I would've posted a lot more links but there were too many of the "christian" taboo names to post to my "christian" thesits....

But I congratulate you in defending something that is "unreasonable" much like christians do.

Are we now supposed to self-censor us to not step on on a feeble Christian's toes concerning things that might or might not poke them the wrong way? While we're at it, how about also removing all names referencing atheism? After all, more than enough Christians already get offended (especially the "innocent" ones who already get their panties in a twist over mythological names) over the mere mentioning of atheism.

What about the forum title? Do you honestly think that someone who already stops reading because of a mythological user name would not already get offended over the title? One look at the mailbag shows this particular kind of Christians see the mere title of the forum as blasphemous.

The moon has thousands of asteroid hits on it but yet we know that these only happen once in every 1 to 2 thousand years..... If the moon has hundreds of asteroid hits of evidence then how is it only 6000 years old again!?

Ya, big time. Like you, I am also dumbfounded by how theists can ignore such evidence as the moon stuff. I even sarted a thread about it. The only theist to respond, a creatard, said some stuff about the earth's atmosphere, then never returned.

Very good, we are getting somewhere. There are things we CAN'T fathom. We MUST go off of faith. Blind faith that something/somehow/sometime came about...and we CAN'T explain it. Therefore, we have NO idea how to explain eternal existence. BUT we do have the observable....the complexity....the order....the perfection in our world to observe. And with the logic that we DO have, we can see that it's simply too remarkable to explain through science. So with that we go to option number two. Something is out there that we can't figure out....hmmm....God? Well, that's definitly an option since we are shooting in the dark anyway for a reason here. Now with God, we have other proofs of His existence..... The BIBLE. Maybe that's what we should really be looking at here.

I hope you were homeschooled because it would be a terrible waste of taxpayers money to think after all those years of education this was all they got for their cash.

It's like they paid for this

but got this

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"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Very good, we are getting somewhere. There are things we CAN'T fathom. We MUST go off of faith. Blind faith that something/somehow/sometime came about...and we CAN'T explain it. Therefore, we have NO idea how to explain eternal existence. BUT we do have the observable....the complexity....the order....the perfection in our world to observe. And with the logic that we DO have, we can see that it's simply too remarkable to explain through science. So with that we go to option number two. Something is out there that we can't figure out....hmmm....God? Well, that's definitly an option since we are shooting in the dark anyway for a reason here. Now with God, we have other proofs of His existence..... The BIBLE. Maybe that's what we should really be looking at here.

Finally, someone made me shut up a bit. Good one. But, by my logic, if it can't be proven, IT CAN'T BE PROVEN. That's my logic. I can't prove God by looking at creation. Nobody can prove anything by stating the unknown. I CAN prove that we don't know, therefore CAN'T say creation didn't happen. We MUST look at other things. Probability for sticking to "science", OR looking at other options. There is more than just creation to point to a God. Look at supernatural phenomenon. Now you must believe in "spirits/ghosts", and the paranormal, right? If there is a spirit world, then there is something out there that we DON'T understand! Now if there's a spirit world, there may be a God. I believe there is and that He along with Satan have a lot of power. Satan, being the evil influence in the world, based on Scripture. You discount demonic possession as being some insanity? I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall. I've seen the name of Jesus drive out a demon.... I've heard God and seen Him work. I've experienced the supernatural in my life as well as many other people. It's real.

Your name is Lucifer. You must have some sort of belief in him. So, the supernatural is impossible? Why? Maybe someday science will tell us how it works. I mean we are still learning and all. Aren't we? I'd go into the many stories I have that can prove the supernatural world and God's presence, but would it help? Do I have some sort of mental, psychotic disorder? I didn't think I did...

I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall. I've seen the name of Jesus drive out a demon.... I've heard God and seen Him work. I've experienced the supernatural in my life as well as many other people. It's real.

Just as long as you don't try stabbing these little girls with scissors.

Maybe you could tell us what this demon looked like. Did you get any pictures you could post? Although if I was a betting man I'd put my money on the demon being an invisible figment of your vivid imagination along with the rest of your unlikely stories.

I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall. I've seen the name of Jesus drive out a demon.... I've heard God and seen Him work. I've experienced the supernatural in my life as well as many other people. It's real.

Very good, we are getting somewhere. There are things we CAN'T fathom. We MUST go off of faith. Blind faith that something/somehow/sometime came about...and we CAN'T explain it. Therefore, we have NO idea how to explain eternal existence. BUT we do have the observable....the complexity....the order....the perfection in our world to observe. And with the logic that we DO have, we can see that it's simply too remarkable to explain through science. So with that we go to option number two. Something is out there that we can't figure out....hmmm....God? Well, that's definitly an option since we are shooting in the dark anyway for a reason here. Now with God, we have other proofs of His existence..... The BIBLE. Maybe that's what we should really be looking at here.

So, the fact that we don't understand something at the moment means we must go off of faith? No, I don't think so. That is an argument from incredulity, "god of the gaps". Namely, the lack of an explanation means that the only answer is "faith". The part you are missing is that there is no reason to expect that there will never be an explanation, or that we do not already have a partial explanation, like we do with evolution. We have had things we could not explain before, that we can explain now. For example, people once thought lightning was too remarkable to explain except through supernatural means, yet now we understand that it is completely natural. So why should anyone expect that other things believed to be supernatural, other things not understood do not have a natural explanation instead?

Also, the Bible is not proof of God's existence. The Bible was written by humans, and many of the stories in it, which I suspect you believe are true, are in fact adapted from earlier stories taken from older religions. For example, Gilgamesh's flood story precedes Noah's flood story by quite a bit, and Osiris was betrayed and killed, then resurrected, long before Jesus. Certainly, some of the details are different, but enough of the core details are the same to show that these stories in the Bible are not particularly original. And even leaving that aside, the argument itself makes little sense. "We can't know something, so we have to have faith, but hey, the Bible has proofs, so let's discuss that." Sciences like evolution have far more proof in favor of them than the Bible, because the Bible was written by people who didn't really know any better and were just trying to get an idea of how the world worked. Fine for them, but we should no more assume that those stories have relevance today than we should assume that a bronze or iron-tipped spear is a good hunting implement.

Your name is Lucifer. You must have some sort of belief in him. So, the supernatural is impossible? Why? Maybe someday science will tell us how it works. I mean we are still learning and all. Aren't we? I'd go into the many stories I have that can prove the supernatural world and God's presence, but would it help? Do I have some sort of mental, psychotic disorder? I didn't think I did...

This makes no sense at all. He picked the name Lucifer for his forum name, therefore he must have some belief in the supernatural being named in the Bible? How about not. As for the supernatural, if science could tell us how the supernatural worked, it would no longer be supernatural, because we would understand it. In other words, defining something as "supernatural" is just shorthand for "I don't understand how this works, therefore it must not be natural".

Finally, someone made me shut up a bit. Good one. But, by my logic, if it can't be proven, IT CAN'T BE PROVEN. That's my logic. I can't prove God by looking at creation. Nobody can prove anything by stating the unknown. I CAN prove that we don't know, therefore CAN'T say creation didn't happen. We MUST look at other things. Probability for sticking to "science", OR looking at other options. There is more than just creation to point to a God. Look at supernatural phenomenon. Now you must believe in "spirits/ghosts", and the paranormal, right? If there is a spirit world, then there is something out there that we DON'T understand! Now if there's a spirit world, there may be a God. I believe there is and that He along with Satan have a lot of power. Satan, being the evil influence in the world, based on Scripture. You discount demonic possession as being some insanity? I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall. I've seen the name of Jesus drive out a demon.... I've heard God and seen Him work. I've experienced the supernatural in my life as well as many other people. It's real.

By your logic, if it can't be proven, it can't be proven? Yeeaaahhhh. First off, you can't assume that because something isn't provable now, that it never will be provable. Second, leaving that aside, science isn't about "proving" things, it's about explaining them as best we can based on the evidence we can uncover. While you are correct that nobody can definitively prove that some being was not involved with the beginning of the universe, it isn't a reasonable presumption unless we find evidence to that effect. It's like if your coffee cup vanished off of the dining room table, saying you couldn't prove that a ghost didn't take it instead of you moving it to some other room and forgetting, or someone else taking it instead.

And who are you to say I "must believe" in anything at all? I've never seen a ghost. I've never seen a demon possession. I've never seen a spirit. I've never seen anything paranormal. If I did see any of those things, I would not simply assume that they had to be ghosts, or demons, or spirits, or the paranormal. I would try to figure out what exactly was going on, the same way as people worked to figure out how other things in the natural world works. So why should I assume that such a thing as a "spirit world" exists, without real evidence in favor of it? Simply because you say it might, or you believe it does? The fact that you believe in something doesn't make it real. Reality exists on its own terms, and no others. You can convince yourself something is real if you believe hard enough in it, but it won't actually make it real. But if something is real, you will have evidence of it that stands up to independent and rigorous scrutiny.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Very good, we are getting somewhere. There are things we CAN'T fathom. We MUST go off of faith. Blind faith that something/somehow/sometime came about...and we CAN'T explain it. Therefore, we have NO idea how to explain eternal existence. BUT we do have the observable....the complexity....the order....the perfection in our world to observe. And with the logic that we DO have, we can see that it's simply too remarkable to explain through science. So with that we go to option number two. Something is out there that we can't figure out....hmmm....God? Well, that's definitly an option since we are shooting in the dark anyway for a reason here. Now with God, we have other proofs of His existence..... The BIBLE. Maybe that's what we should really be looking at here.

Finally, someone made me shut up a bit. Good one. But, by my logic, if it can't be proven, IT CAN'T BE PROVEN. That's my logic. I can't prove God by looking at creation. Nobody can prove anything by stating the unknown. I CAN prove that we don't know, therefore CAN'T say creation didn't happen. We MUST look at other things. Probability for sticking to "science", OR looking at other options. There is more than just creation to point to a God. Look at supernatural phenomenon. Now you must believe in "spirits/ghosts", and the paranormal, right? If there is a spirit world, then there is something out there that we DON'T understand! Now if there's a spirit world, there may be a God. I believe there is and that He along with Satan have a lot of power. Satan, being the evil influence in the world, based on Scripture. You discount demonic possession as being some insanity? I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall. I've seen the name of Jesus drive out a demon.... I've heard God and seen Him work. I've experienced the supernatural in my life as well as many other people. It's real.

Do you believe that god has a lot of power, or that he is all-powerful? If, like most xians (and I suspect as much), its the latter, do you not see the inherent contradiction in the existence of an all-powerful god and the existence of satan? If god is truly omnipotent he: (a) created and gave power to this evil being called satan, (b) allows satan to exist, and (c) is complicit in all of satan's actions. Would you stand by and do nothing if a child were being raped or murdered right in front of you, even if you had the means to easily stop it? This is essentially the scenario taking place every time something bad/evil happens in the world, according to your belief. How do you reconcile this to a being worthy of praise and worship?

And it is not imperative for one to believe in "spirits/ghosts" or the paranormal, either. I used to date a girl who insisted her apartment was haunted because the light in her room would flicker intermittently, especially (she claimed) when she was thinking of a particular recently deceased relative. Turns out the only thing required to drive that ghost away was to tighten the bulb in her lamp.

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Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

I used to date a girl who insisted her apartment was haunted because the light in her room would flicker intermittently, especially (she claimed) when she was thinking of a particular recently deceased relative. Turns out the only thing required to drive that ghost away was to tighten the bulb in her lamp.

Sounds like a pretty dim bulb herself bloke...

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

I've seen demon possessed little girls pick up grown men and throw them against the wall

Interesting. Sure, you have seen it, so it must be real then, huh? Not everything we see is what is truly is. That being, if you've seen "demon possessed" girls throw grown men against a wall doesn't mean that girls were demon possessed. There would be another, more realistic, explanation also. For example: the girls could've been on the drug PCP. Or, these men they threw against the wall could've been trapped under a car and the girl's fight or flight response could have been triggered. I don't know. What you saw seems pretty vague based on what you posted. To just rule that these girls were demonically possessed is a bit premature.

Oh, a little girl tossed a man 50 feet. How?

(the only) Answer: Demonic possession.

That just sounds stupid. I'm sure if multiple cases like what you experienced happened it would make Dateline or something. And I am sure (or at least hoping) that if these girls actually did do this they'd be receiving some sort of medical evaluation as to how they did this. And well, until the medical reports specifically claim 'DEMONIC POSSESSION" I don't believe your story (and I will admin that even with the diagnosis of demonic possession I won't believe the medical studies)

This reminds me. What these girls did would be battery in regards to law. Did these grown men press charges on these girls? Are the girls sitting in juvie for being "demonically possessed". Where are these little girls now? In our day and age the police report would be on the Internet I'd be interested in reading it. That is if what you say actually happened.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 06:49:02 AM by Emily »

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.