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Just watched that live on RT of him speaking in sochi too, but how could Russia response? Turkey is NATO member, plus id; be interested to know who actually or which third party told the turkish to fire on the russian plane.

Russian submarines and jets have tested and broken UK airpsace waters but Uk would never have the ball to shoot or fire on a russian jet or submarine,,,so the question is who gave the order to the turkish to shoot it down?

Turkey gets 60% of its gas from Russia, Russia could cut it off and watch Turkey collapse, of course that would only a short-term solution, as Turkey is a fairly rich country and a NATO member, if Turkey was cut off from Russian gas then they would probably Rush to build a pipe-line from some other country and then perhaps this pipe-line could connect with EU, so the long-term effects of cutting of Turkey from Russian gas would have a negative effect on Russia.

But how much gas does Europe get from Russia? The EU cannot supply Turkey without causing severe disruptions to themselves, possibly even risking a disastrous Russian shut off of Europe (mid-winter!) in retaliation for circumventing the Turkey shut-off. In any event, new pipelines take much longer to build than this crisis will last.

Liz, punishing the Turks for the crimes of their Islamofascist Fuhrer, Sultan Erdogan, would be immoral and counter-productive. He is central to the secular-ish side of Islamofascist aggression. He deserves early retirement.

Not saying that Obama gave the order, but it is clear that he is gloating about the incident when he said, “Turkey has the right to defend their airspace.” That bastard has been itching for a confrontation with Russia since his minions instigated the coup in Ukraine. The US and NATO are playing with fire, and again acting as the transgressor.

Good question, but do you really have to ask? This country has been aching to shoot down a Russian plane, but doesn’t have the balls to do it, so they intimidate a pup[et state. Not very wise of Turkey.

“McCain is said to have made assurances to Turkey that NATO commander, General Phillip Breedlove, would “personally” extend the protection of American strategic nuclear forces over Turkey if a direct confrontation with Russia ensued.

McCain assured Erdogan, according to sources, that the Pentagon was ready to move against Obama and that Russia, knowing this, would back down. What Erdogan fails to grasp, however, is that McCain, rumored to be increasingly mentally unstable, represents a groups of “End Times” religious extremists which include Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and all but two of the huge field of Republican presidential candidates to whom nuclear apocalypse has long been a goal.

Moreover, the 3 recent “events,” the Sinai “crash,” the attack on the Crimea power grid and the downing of the SU24 are pure provocation. Ostensibly, this is an American move, we believe, to convince the Saudi’s and Gulf States that America is not abandoning the Middle East and is ready to play “brinksmanship” with Russia as it had done at the height of the Cold War. It is also based on an American assessment of Putin himself, that he is a pragmatist and will back down.

The strong political divisions within the US, a weakened State Department and a deeply divided Department of Defense, along with a congress controlled by special interests, has allowed Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel and Ukraine to “go rogue” against Russia. Only Israel’s Netanyahu has kept, just possibly, the option of backing out of the secret American “cabal” that is targeting Putin.

One might also note that the recent Russian naval exercises in the Eastern Mediterranean and the concurrent closing of commercial air space over the region was in response to a recognized threat of a USS Liberty type attack on a Russian vessel. Such an attack may well have been in the offing. Today’s event, placed in context, has to be taken as a planned provocation.

There is no way of proving Americans planes weren’t involved in this incident. This is the second such incident in recent days, with a Russian airliner over Egypt shot down in all probability by a NATO fighter only miles from the Israeli border during “exercises.”

Putting accuses Turkey of being “an accomplice to terrorists.”
“Instead of contacting us immediately Turkey addressed their NATO partners — as if it was us who downed their plane, not vice versa. Do they want to put NATO at the service of ISIL?”

Tis is much more the likely case – Turkey got fed up with Russia’s sudden destructio of Erdogan’s son’s very profitable business. Erdogan stated clearly that he was against the Russian bombing going on in Syria – there could be no other reason for this. Erdogan was also upset that his Turkmen villages near the border were being attacked. He has always wanted to provide a 20 km ‘safe zone’ on the border protecting the Turkmen and acting as a safe-zone for ISIS and other terrorist groups (though he would never actually admit to such a thing). He was even prepared to actually invade Syria with his army to accomplish this. But I think this downing of a Russian jet completely upsets that plan as Russia will likely destroy him if he does that now.

Yes , you are right ; the son of Erdogan is handling/dealing with the purchase and distribution of the Isil/Daeshd stolen from Syria Oil. His daughter is running the hospital on the border to treat the rabid
Daeshd slaughterers / Anglozionist Wahaabists… = = “democratic ￼” “”European”” Turkey. Most effective genocidists, Mason Muslim Brotherhood. Once over 33rd degree : Satan takes over. Anglozionist scum… DEGRENERATI !!! Cossack solution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Turkey is not a real entity, its western half is Greek ,, its eastern part is armenia.
The Turks come from central asia. Nothing good can come frrom people who are not rooted to the land they are on, and turkey has only ever been a force of darkness in the region… It will not last as a nation, and its end is near..

The preliminaries of an all out WW III are beginning. The shooting down of the Russian fighter aircraft over Syrian airspace – by NATO puppet Turkey (which is still – in 2015 – a Prison House of nations), is an Act of War. The subsequent lies concerning the shooting serve as proof of the imperialist crime against Russia and Syria.

In my missives on the Saker website I have repeatedly insisted, and in my most recent dispute with Rambo, insisted that the ISIS/DAESH are nothing other than American/Israeli soldiers, dressed up in costumes of more local Arab inhabitants, with a seasoning of Arab and Turkish traitors thrown in for more ethnic flavor.

Few have expressed agreement with me on this key point. Russian leaders and the daring Russian Air Corps have reversed the negative tide of history (including the War), by their daring military actions that are designed to, not only liberate Syria, but to set the stage for the liberation of all the peoples and their Nations of the Middle East.

It is time for such an action; and the Russians have met the time.

Follow the Time. Follow the Chronology.

1 After the significant military gains of the anti-fascist alliance of Russia, Syria, Iraq, Hezbollah, and Iran against the Zionist Nazi NATO Americans, and their craven Turkish and Saudi slaves, – the military response of the imperialist powers — (the possiblilty of which has been repeatedly warned about by The Saker), (and this is just one of many responses), is the downing of a Russian Air Force fighter that was on an anti-terrorist mission.

2. The cutting off of power supplies to Russia’s Crimea was another act of military violence. Power lines routing electricity to the Crimea were blown up.

3. The terror False Flag in Paris appears to have served (among other things), to take Russia’s attention off (at least momentarily) from the NATO buildup in Turkey.

4. Now the Zionist American NATO have, after murdering thousands of Russians in the Ukraine, and 225 Russian civilians on their Airliner in Egypt, have committed a most direct Act of War against Russia. And they have, not only admitted the act – but, proudly boasted of it. They imply that more acts of that nature are to come.

5. Read my lips Mr. Rambo, (I bear no ill will for Mr Rambo; we have many areas of agreement, and one big area of disagreement), the Zio/Nazi/American leaders are counterattacking. They are taking their Brass Knuckles out of the box. And the Russians and their allies will not retreat, because retreat means surrender, abject slavery, and an end to Russia, and an end to civilization, (with or without the Nukes).

6. Unfortunately, The American Republic has been dead too long. There is nothing left in the hearts or souls of Americans to stop the rush to the Abyss. It is not possible to revive a dead body. Not even Doctor Frankenstein could do this trick.

*I have some suggestions for the Russians, and for any Americans reading this missive.

The easy suggestions: are for the Russians to do even more fighting.

1. Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania – 20,000 Marines each. The sooner you liberate your people here and safeguard your Nation’s major cities, and your West European Front, the better. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to take these actions.

2. Re-attach all your old Republics, from Belarussia, Kazakhstan, to Georgia, to Kiev-Odessa-Jarkov, and Moldovia.

3. Mobilize the Serbs and rebuild Yugoslavia.

4. Openly support the Restoration of the Constitutional American Democratic Republic! The Republic that was overthrown on November 22, 1963.

5. Demand Turkey leave NATO, demobilize its armed forces, turn over the pilot who shot down the Russian fighter aircraft, and set up a 100 mile demilitarized zone on its borders with Syria, Iraq, and Russia, (with the demilitarized zone to be patrolled by the Russian Army).

6. The Zionist Land Thieves must return the Golan Heights to Syria before 2016.

7. Mobilize (re industrialize) Russia’s economy, and Mobilize Russia’s Armed Forces (invite China and other ‘allies’ to do the same).

The more difficult suggestions – to the unconscious and in-denial (exceptionalist) Americans.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal… governments are instituted among men, deriving their powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles…”

The above is a portion of the Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson.

1. Make every effort to form an Alternate Government Coalition to confront the Zionist occupied government in 2016.

2. Nominate candidates; hold alternate elections.

3. Inaugurate a Constitutional Government effort that will create a political DUAL POWER confrontation with the anti-Constitutional Traitors.

The goal of these is war radical social restructuring not gain territory.

The technological, political plans for increased if not total control and subjugation are already drawn up, they just need a cataclysmic event to implement it: drones, cashless economy, intrusive monitoring of populations, rfid tagging, formal abolition of “”sovereignty”, nuclear weapons and national armies for a limited ‘peacekeeping’ army under central international control.

Read the UN charter and the sections which spell this out but were never implemented due to the cold war.

The cure is the middle way: avoid war and radial revolutionsfor a more slow reform to a more peacefull, just government.

I know, much more difficult and less appealing but it is the only way: a narrow long road with the abyss on both sides.

Well stated, but needing one tiny correction. If you do the research you’ll find that Thomas Paine actually wrote The Declaration of Independence; T. Jefferson headed the committee charged with producing it. His edit was to remove the part calling for freeing the slaves. Just more USA propagandizing and reeducating away from the truth of things as they actually are…

There are many other links to prove this. I suggest you do the research.

Tom Paine was a great Revolutionist. He opposed slavery. He is, also, sorely missed. When, in his later years, Paine fell out of favor, and dodged death in England and France, Jefferson remained his last friend.

Forget the Zionist version of American history and the digressions, and attacks against Jefferson (taken out of context – of the time). Most of these attacks on Jefferson are sponsored by the zionist Democrat gang bloc of history propagandists. They cry “racism” in response to every exposure of Hollywood Obomber. They cry “extremist” to criticisms of war criminal & terrorist H. Clinton, and “anti-semite” to those who expose Sander’s terrorist crimes (such as voting to fund the military, wars against Iraq, and Afghanistan, and funding the occupiers of Palestine).

Most of America’s Founders were slave owners, and the majority of those who did not own slaves, profited off slavery. However, the Founders did advance revolutionary theory and action and defeated the most powerful; imperialist nation (England). George Washington considered Jefferson to have been the Leader of the Revolution.

What is your real name? Do you have a legitimate reason to be afraid? If so, I drop my question.

I am a Patriot of America’s Potential, its best moments, and its dreams.

Jefferson wrote: “I like the dreams of the future better than the history of the past.”

While the turn of this thread into a discussion of the founding fathers is well off point, I must post my complete disagreement with your comments regarding Jefferson and the Revolution. At every critical moment of the Revolution, but for the Declaration, Jefferson was absent from the scene, and where present he was part of a group (in Paris). While he was Gov. of Virginia and the Brits descended on the capital he fled the advance and failed to do anything to rally the militia or countryside to counter the seizure of Richmond. He refused Arnold’s offer to preserve the city, his ostentatiously written response leading directly the destruction of the City.

As Sec. of State, at virtually each and every turn he undermined Washington’s programs, even going so far as to surreptitiously back a clerk of his Dept. of State (Freneau), while an employee of the gov’t, in publishing an opposition newspaper (National Gazette) that castigated Washington and Hamilton at every turn. Virtually each nation-building program that Washington advanced Jefferson opposed. The chickenhawk even had the temerity to question, even mock, the combat experience of Hamilton, Washingtons indispensible aid de’ camp who Washington only permitted to lead troops in battle in the final triumphal battle of Yorktown.

The mythical man you cherish showed his true (white) colors not only in his support for inviolability of slavery at home and the Jacobins in France but moreso in his despicable opposition to the freedom of the Haitian slaves, led by a true hero of humanity Toussaint L’Overture who fought for Haiti’s freedom from the vile conditions of servitude in which they were held. Jefferson opposed the heroic Haitian’s their right to freedom and independence, and used their epic victories over the French as his own empire-building tool to buy the Louisiana territory, despite its likely unconstitutionality, so the US profited from Haitian slave’s misery. His actions in Haiti bespeak more of the nature of the man than any platitudes to which he is credited for in the Declaration of Independence.

History now reflects the true character of the man – he raped his daughter’s 14 year old slave and sired multiple children with her whom he kept in slavery, and didn’t even grant them all unconditional freedom (some he let simply “run away”), none of whom are known to have received any inheritance from their daddy. I commend to you this article to give a different flavor of the man.

In my opinion, the reality of Jefferson is not in conformance with your near-mythical perceptions of him.

By the way, I would be pleased to be pointed to any credible source that backs up your assertion that Washington considered Jefferson the “leader of the Revolution.” Considering that Jefferson very pointedly and intentionally failed to attend the funeral for Washington or any memorial service for him upon his death, going so far as to be quoted saying that “the “republican spirit” in the nation might revive now that Washington was dead and the Federalists could no longer hide behind his heroic image”, the kind thoughts you assert Washington had for Jefferson were certainly not reciprocated.

1. It is up to you to suggest credible sources for your wild and mythical theories concerning American History.

2. I already offered 1 link. there are thousands of others.
Begin with a basic textbook such as “Of the People: A History of the United States” James Oakes, & 4 other History profs-authors.

3. Try Zinns History of the american People. etc., – – – –

Toussaint L’Ouverture was a great revolutionary. Try “The Black Jacobins” by CLR James. we used his Monograph in my history classes.

Jefferson, and any other political personage, must be judged in the Context of their Times.

Jefferson was not flawless.

He was as I described him.

As for

Jefferson, Trotsky, Durruti, Joan Baez, and Sheryl Crow, Hands off all of them!

Peter

What are you going to do to oppose the upcoming 2016 electoral circus, and help construct a Constitutionalist movement to Restore our Republic? I suggest Alternate elections to set up an Alternate Government, and slowly, but clearly begin the road back.

Brainwashed and intimidated people are herded to the slaughter house. “The goal is justice, the method﻿ is transparency. It’s important not to confuse the goal and the method.” Julian Assange
Education is the road…

One possible response would be for Russia to target terrorist facilities within Turkey, but to do in a relatively circumspect manner that allowed Russia to maintain a measure of “plausible deniability”.

The means for doing so may be the KH-101: a radar-evading, long-range cruise missile that Russia has already used to strike targets within terrorist-held portions of Syria.

This is the more likely action going forward. Russia will lock down the border and create a no-fly zone using its advanced electronic jamming weapons, as Russia now has a clear excuse to use such weaponry. Nothing will get through that unless Russia wants it to.

Perhaps the best immediate response would be a narrow focused bombing of the area where the so called “Turkmen rebels” (isnt it strange we never heard of the before this) shot dead the 2 pilots….
Then do some longer term revenge on Erdogan…

That was no accident, and it probably was not an incursion into Turkish airspace as the plane came down in Syria. It was a pure act of NATO aggression meant to warn Russia not to f@@@ with their evil progeny of ISIS. Putin ought to unleash holy hell on the Turkish-Syrian border were ISIS and other terrorist animals are holed up. Use plenty of cruise missiles though to spare your pilots. Just carpet bomb the fucking place using your big bombers. And shoot down any Turkish planes in the vicinity, as they are a threat to your personnel.

I wonder who supplied the missile if so….but Turkey says their planes shot down …….
meanwhile
PRAGUE, November 24. /TASS/. Czech President Milos Zeman denounced on Tuesday Turkey’s actions over the situation around the Russian Sukhoi Su-34 bomber that crashed in Syria.
“Sometimes, a suspicion is voiced that Turkey is informally interacting with the Islamic State. Considering that the Russian air group is fighting against the IS, then, of course, the attack [which caused the aircraft’s crash] is an extremely radical measure. It will only make the atmosphere worse,” the head of the Czech Republic said.”

There is a “buffer zone” in Northern Syria around 10km deep, which Turkey declared that it belongs to it in Turkey the past and considers it its own soil. It contains many Turkmen (ie. Al Nusra allies) villages, which . When you hear that a Russian fighter was downed inside Turkey, it was more likely 4km’s from the official border, inside this zone in Syria. So no mystery there. Turkey downed the fighter inside Syria with a missile fired from an F16 in this area, while the Su24M was attacking Al Nusra – and possibly a Turkish paramilitary Grey Wolves battalion – on the ground.

Like I said from Day 1 on this and other blogs as well, the only way to win this war would be for Russian troops to reach the Turkish border and begin arming the PKK and other anti-Turkish Kurdish forces.

Only by taking the carnage to the Turks and Saudis will it be possible for them to back-off.

Can NATO provide the troops needed for saving Turkey and KSA? I doubt that. I am sure they can provide tons of materiel for an indefinite period of time, but no way westerners will be eager to fight for the sake of Turkey, KSA and Qatar.

Anyone who thinks that this act was not done with the full support of NATO (or at least the Pentagon) are out of their minds.

In fact NATO has just called an emergency meeting at TURKEY’S REQUEST!

I hope Russia does flood PKK with arms, the problem I see is that, what can Russia do? Russia is very restricted the way I see it, Turkey is an NATO member and a very strong country militarly, so attacking Turkey is out of the question.

Then there is a “behind the curtain” reaction Russia could do.. The problem here is that Russia is limited in this areas as well, if Russia did something behind the curtains, say, armed the kurds of released secret information about Turkey, then Turkey would respond by arming Nazi regime in Ukraine.

Altought, Russia seems to have reacted very strongly already, basically calling Turkey a terror state that protects ISIS and buys oil, if they release documents that objectivly verifies that it would be pretty hardcore.

I guess Russia could move more S400 systems to Syria and shoot down the first Turkey jet they target.

1. Russia could shoot down turkish jets bombing kurdish rebels in Syria, block turkish action in Syria, and support the creation of a kurdish enclave on the Turkish-Syria border – something that Turkey does not want to see happening (the military response).

2. Russia could redirect the millions of russian tourists that visit Turkey toward other countries (the economic response).

Turkey is not very strong militarily. They are as weak as the Pakistanis, they cannot sustain a conflict with anyone – why do you think Erdogan goes running to NATO?

The most important thing is for Russia to carefully assess the data, check with the Turks, demand their data. They have to be sure that no 3rd party is playing mischief; by jamming the pilots comms with the Turkish ATC and by spoofing the Russian pilots geo location data.

Remember there are plenty of instigators with electronic warfare capability that would like to trigger a Russia expansion of the conflict

I suspect it has already begun – for the purposes of the history books anyway. This was just the Empire firing the official starting gun – a kind of Archduke Ferdinard moment. Whether Russia choose to come out and treat it like an act of war I suspect we will know very shortly.

got that right, the berlin wall going down was meant to convert all eastern and former soviet states into NATO members states to encirle Russia and bring it to their knees on behalf of the zionist state of Israel

Jose, exactly. The USA took over as the Reich from about 1943. And the US elite were instrumental in creating fascism and Nazism in the first place. The World War between the parasites and their victims is eternal, but I get a very bad feeling that it is about to draw to and end, with a bang, not a whimper.

Photo is confirmed and he is is a dead RuAF pilot. This is way inside Syria, Rabi’a, see map below, some 10-15 kms south of the Turkish border, right there where the SAA/NDF were advancing in the Turkmen Mountain.

ex-ukranian BUKs sold to ISIL via Turkey and Bulgaria?
It’s really hard to believe that sultan of Turkey, has decided to listen to his nato masters in doing such provocation by shooting down a russian jet…but one can expect anything from neocons and its puppets

Surely Turkey would not claim the shootdown if they didn’t do it? On the other hand, if Russia felt it had few options to respond to a shootdown by Turkey short of risking a widening war, possibly with NATO, wouldn’t it prefer to blame ground fire?

We surely live in interesting times, and the beast stalks the earth, preparing for his harvest.

BRUSSELS, November 24. /TASS/. The North Atlantic Council will hold consultations in Brussels on Tuesday at 17:00 (19:00 Moscow Time) on the incident with the Russian Su-24 jet which crashed in Syria, the alliance’s headquarters said on Tuesday.
The Russian Defense Ministry said earlier that a Sukhoi-24 aircraft of the Russian air group had crashed in Syria, presumably, as a result of an attack from the ground. At the moment of the attack the plane was at an altitude of 6,000 meters. The pilots’ fate is unclear at the moment. According to early reports both managed to eject themselves.
“Throughout the flight the plane was exclusively over Syrian territory. Objective monitoring data confirm that,” the Defense Ministry said.
OPINION
Zamyatina
Tamara
Attack against Russian Sukhoi-24 was not accidental, says retired general
Meanwhile, the Turkish General Staff said the country’s Air Force had attacked a plane that had allegedly violated the country’s airspace. According to its statement, the intruder plane had been warned ten times before being attacked by two F-16 fighters of the Turkish Air Force’

I have long feared this.
My question is:
And now? What the russian government will do? And the consequences? The Third World War?
How the diplomacy will find a solution for a clearly act of war?
Never forget, Turk is a NATO member. And a war between NATO members and Russia is exactly the hawks in USA is seeking for a long time.
Other question:
The SU 24 was really flying in the turkish aerospace? Whats the true?

“Turkey has maintained a buffer zone five miles inside Syria since June 2012, when a Syrian air defense missile shot down a Turkish fighter plane that had strayed into Syrian airspace. Under revised rules of engagement put in effect then, the Turkish air force would evaluate any target coming within five miles of the Turkish border as an enemy and act accordingly.

@ Kleber — The SU 24 was really flying in the turkish aerospace? Whats the true?

Our Ministry of Defence (I am a Russian, watching the events in Syria very closely) said they have all the evidence that our jet was over the Syrian territory.

Laughable are the words of the Turks that Turkey had warned our jet 10 times before shooting it down: they are speaking about a narrow tongue of Turkish territory intruding into Syria with a width of several km, which a jet can fly through in several seconds.

According to the flight path given by the Turks the Russian Su-24 crossed Turkish air space for less than 10 seconds. And for this unforgivable sin the Turks had F16s waiting for the Russian plane so they could shoot it down, and kill at least one possibly both pilots?

Clearly we don’t have all the facts yet but this looks like a deliberate stitch up by the Turks (with NATO approval of course). No doubt NATO will come out bleating about Russian aggression.

I agree ten seconds is not enough time to respond. The plane was being tracked long before reaching Turk airspace. They warned the Russian aircraft for five minutes before reaching
their airspace so they could say that the plane was invading their airspace so they could nustify shooting the plane down. They did it without consulting anybody to drag NATO in. I am from Canada and we are part of NATO and i dont support Turkey here. They are blood thristy people just look at their history. Just ask Armenins about the genocide purpotrated on them by Turkey.

According to official Turkish letter to UN SC the plane overflew turkish territory for 17 s.

It was warned ‘(when approaching turkish airspace) 10 times in 5m previously.

It is clear they launched a missile as soon as it crossed into Turkey literally seconds after since that was their window of opportunity.

The area overflown is more a tiny outcrop into syrian territory couple miles wide so it required no manuoevring to enter it on the part of the pilot who was engaged in a combat situation at the time , as soon as it entered it was already on a trajectory out so to speak.

It is clear that they were just waiting for this kind of opportunity to do this.

Technically it is not an act of war and Turkey was legally justified in taking action. This is the reason why Putin said the aircraft posed no threat tacitly acknowledging it crossed the border.

Its was still a cowardly, opportunistic suckerpunch so to speak.

Not to say of the downright outrageous shooting of the pilots in the air and showing the pics on tv no doubt to inflame Russian public opinion.

I think, not an expert on Russian society, that the West seriously misreads Russian peoples character thinking they will turn against the Russian intervention in Syria because of this and airliner bombing.

Erdogan had told Russia last week not to hit the Turkmens since he was taking domestic heat for not backing them.

I think he is seriously suffering from delusions of grandeur.

I fear Turkey will feel Russian response soon enough ranging from economic(3m tourists gone, Turkstream dead), political (support for PKK, Cyprus, intensify bombing/destruction of Turkmens) not to say if it so much as gives Russia a pretext for legal, justified attack anywhere (Turkey crossing into Syria air or land, Black sea region, .. They will unleash the full might of Russian army)

As Peskov said – we need patience …(to analyse all facts). That is exactly what is needed. That was stupid act against Turkish interests. Kurds should be very, very happy now and for the time that is coming!

We wonder why Russia gives warning before an attack.. That is to get IS handlers to safety before the missiles strike.. Still I am sure a bunch of them have died.. But we will now see a lot more of them getting buried in their bomb shelters.. And this area of the Syrian/Turkish border that is used to smuggle in weapons to Syria will see a huge escalation..

FSA are claiming to have hit a #RuAF helicopter with a TOW near Kafriyeh in #Latakia countryside

RuAF helicopter lands on Mt Nuba, all crew members are fine

NATO calls for “extrodinary meeting” with #Turkey following downing of #RuAF jet

Russia calls emergency UN security council meeting..

Lavrov cancels his Turkish trip for tomorrow..

President Putin: #RuAF warplane crashing near #Turkey border is a “serious” incident, no conclusions until full assessment

A cowardly act, worthy of Turkey’s modus operandi through the ages.
The West will-perhaps somewhat reluctantly but at the end firmly-support Turkey, no matter how risky this act may seem to some NATO members.

One should not be surprised that this occured, Turkey had been escalating the rhetoric very consistently.What is surprising to me is that Russia actually seemed to hope that an anti-Daesh coalition could be formed, where it could cooperate with the West. The same West, that wishes to undermine it in any turn.

We can speculate on whether this act had received a prior ok from Washington or not but in the end it is not that important.

Recently the tide seemed to have turned on the ground in favor of the forces that constitute the local Resistance to the Empire(Syrian Army and allies), and Turkey likely tried to prop up its Daesh/jihadi assets with a propaganda victory and by preventing any Russian/Western understanding in Syria.The irony is that such an outcome was never likely.

What are russian options besides launching an attack on Turkish targets that could trigger WW3?
Make sure that the Resistance wins in Syria, perhaps by providing “boots-on-the-ground”. In any case this conflict has spilled over in so many ways. Now mission creep is setting in..

An early childhood memory of mine is having a stuffed animal and using it to bother my younger sister, knocking down her blocks etc. I ended up getting swatted by my uncle who babysat, but I protested “Winnie the Pooh did it.” ISIS et al.=Winnie the Pooh

Terrorists on the ground found one of the dead pilots. How can the wreckage be on Syrian soil if shot down by Turkish air force. dots are not connecting here…

If Turkish F-16s were within their airspace and launched their missiles on its side of the border; even AIM-7F Sparrow has a range of 50 kilometres. Once the Su-24 was hit the pilots would have done their best to crash as close to Syrian army-held territory as possible.

What can be seen from downing video, Su-24 had wings folded and landed straight like a brick. There is not much chance of gliding over the border if it was in Turkey. Sultan Erdogan must be very upset because Russians stopped oil flow and everybody in the region knows that his son is the main Daesh oil dealer, while his daughter runs chain of hospitals running health services for Daesh.
In Russia, they say: Running like Turks”, when someone is really beaten.

In addition to economic sanctions, don’t be surprised if Russian S-400s start retaliating against Turkish fighters “accidentally crossing” the Syrian border. I am sure the Russians will use a similar excuse (we warned everybody many times; they violated Syria’s airspace; etc), and the Western media will scream bloody hell.

Or better yet, maybe the KGB will find a way to sneak a bomb aboard Erdogan’s plane…

Its to early to really say for certain what happened.But either way it was a violation of the UNSC resolution.And may lead to war.If not,Turkey needs a serious beat-down anyway over this.Its time of Putin to get over his “legal” response.And start backing the Kurds in Turkey.I also think he should allow Kadyrov to send his Chechen Legion to Syria to take over the Syrian-Turkish border region.Letting them, in Kadyrov’s own way,deal with the jihadis that murdered the pilot.And their Western helpers.And if it was a ground missile,and was gotten from Ukraine.Unleash the NAF,and recognize a government in exile for Ukraine.No more half-measures and Minsk.

Only in something like word.. With IE11 it autocorrects words to something you don’t even type.. This small window makes it hard to find those changes, I only wish the computer don’t correct anything but there is no option to turn it off.. Now if I was a real commenter I would do as some of my old room mates did, they type it and format it in a program and then cut and paste it. But those are the pros..

The timing of downing Russian Military Jet is perfect. Now, it will be easier for both The Empire and Russia to cooperate against ISIS (goddess). Once, the dust is settled, it will also will become a strong message to Isreal, “be very careful”.

Obama needs excuses to slowly, slowly come down from Assad has to go. A year later on 20 January, 2017 he won’t be in Office. The New President will have no problem for Assad to stay. Have you seen any serious Presidential Candidates making claim that Assad must go.

The puzzle is becoming obvious and almost complete. As they say, “que bueno”!

“On Friday, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry summoned the Russian ambassador demanding that Russia cease operations in Syria targeting Turkmen villages, saying the Russian actions did not “constitute a fight against terrorism” but the bombing of civilians. Ambassador Andrey Karlov was warned during the meeting that the Russian operations could lead to serious consequences, the ministry said.”

Seems to explain it — nothing to do with violating air space — it’s ‘just [ oil] business’, as the Mafia says. Turkey has become a terrorist nation under Erdogan (who may soon realize his testicles are in Putin’s pocket as he feels the squeeze).
With the US having said this is between Russia and Turkey he can’t expect help from NATO. He’d better hide under bed and hope for the best, but it won’t help. If Russia cuts off gas and oil from Turkey he will be hanging from a lamp post.

You said above that “The US said this incident is between Russia and Turkey”. I read an article (can’t remember where) that expressed a similar sentiment. This standoffish attitude on the part of the US may be an invitation for Russia to attack Turkey. I would not be surprised at all if the US is willing to sacrifice Erdogan and have Turkey turn into a failed state in order to draw Russia into a Vietnam-style quagmire. Turkey will be more difficult to defeat than Iraq or Libya, but Russia can do it. The problem is that such an attack will turn all Turks, even anti-Erdogan ones, against Russia, and Russian troops will have to deal with the same issues the US faced over the last 15 years in Afghanistan and Iraq – IEDs, ambushes, suicide bombers, etc. Of course, the US will be aiding the anti-Russian forces, whether covertly or overtly. The US may even do a bait-and-switch by first acting like “this incident is between Russia and Turkey,” then all of a sudden becoming deeply outraged at a NATO member being attacked and bringing its own troops to fight Russians in Turkey. So… this is a tricky situation and in my opinion, a military component should be very small and surgical as a part of Russia’s response. The main response should be economic and political.

I don’t see Russia making war on Turkey, but it could certainly inflict some damage and secure the border with Syria, as well as other retribution. Putin isn’t dumb about these things.

It’s a question as to how much involvement US and NATO had with this — I expect Erdogan is quite lunatic enough to do this on his own, but much more could be there.
Yet e see a statement from a DoD official saying it has no proof that Russia was in Turkish territory, and the statement from Obama above, both indicating US/NATO doesn’t want to be caught up in this — maybe not even the DoS although it tries to get mileage out of it. There is a NY Times article saying Russia violated Turkish air space, but that’s an agitating Anglo-zio source. This could exacerbate the rifts within the US powers in the deep state and government (while at the same consolidating those in Russia).

I’m seeing, at this point, this shootdown as a grave error for whoever is responsible.

Thoughts with the family of the Russian pilot killed today and with all victims of this senseless and avoidable conflict.

I would expect that Russia will not react militarily. Russia has called for an emergency UN security council meeting. Russia is more likely to request an independent investigation through the UN to establish the facts.

Then Russia will react in a way that is legal within international law.

Putin said, ” it was a Turkish F 16 has shot down of Russian aircraft by a missile of “air-air” in the flight at 1 km from Turkey and fallen at a distance of 4 km to the border of Turkey. It is a blow in the back from the accomplices of the terrorists”

Turkey backstabbed Russia by downing the Russian warplane and acted as accomplices of the terrorists, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

The plane was hit by a Turkish warplane as it was travelling 1 km away from the Turkish border, Putin said. The plane posed no threat to Turkish national security, he stressed.

Putin said the plane was targeting terrorist targets in the Latakia province of Syria, many of whom came from Russia.

Putin said Russia respects the regional interests of other nations, but warned the atrocity committed by Turkey would not go without an answer.

“Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplices”

The gloves may be coming off now.Putin has announced the Turks did the shoot down and vows to take action.We are close to war.Now is the time to deal with the junta.And destroy the jihadis in Syria.And if NATO wants war,then prepare to be annihilated.

Wolly Krap!!! Putin just called Turkey a terrorist state sponsor.. That means UN sanctions.. Which US might veto but something will happen for sure after this…

Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world, he added.

The incident will have grave consequences for Russia’s relations with Turkey, Putin warned.

It occurred to me the 1000 or so oil tankers Russia damaged recently may have been part of the precipitating factor, that puts a $$ crimp in both parties activities, turkey and isis. Since Erdogan is solidly in bed with the muslim brotherhood read isis and related brethren, being pushed by the gulf monarchies as a sunni wahabbi take over and spread of ideology, they are all up to their eyeballs in intrigue commitments and like all chips in ! and as his re election campaign demonstrated, Erdogan is absolutely without any moral qualms.

Last week Turkey reached an agreement for the biggest energy deals in the country’s history.

“an agreement has been reached with the Turkish side that the pipe via the Black Sea will be run in the same corridor as the South Stream, Gazprom CEO Alexey Miller says”
source: http://tass.ru/en/economy/836713

A week later it shoots down a plane from the country it made the agreement with. Simply makes no sense whatsoever. It just defies all logic.

Unless the goal is to shut off Russia and the “new silk road” and attach EU to the Gulf oil/gas via pipes through Syria and Turkey thus preventing the formation of Eurasian economic block=EU+Russia+China.

My guess. Putin will close Syrian airspace to everyone except for Russian and Syrian jets. After all, any jets flying in Syrian airspace without Syria’s permission is breaking international law. I guess we’ll see how good Russian aircraft missiles are.

People speak of NATO Article 5 without understanding it. Here’s the straight dope:

Article 5 of the NATO charter states:

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them may exercise their right of individual or collective self-defence, recognised in Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, and will assist the party or parties being attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
North Atlantic Charter: Washington DC, 4. April 1949

Note that the Article does not require any action whatsoever by any party, but simply states their pre-existing Right, under the UN Charter, to individual and collective self-defense. The Article quite specifically leaves to each individual State Party the matter of what, if any, sort of action the individual State may take. In the history of the Article, moreover, it is specifically made clear that such actions are to be consistent with the Laws of each individual State. Thus, for example, in the U.S., a Congressional Act, a Declaration of War would be a prerequisite.

It looks like the empire of chaos has chosen Turkey to be the trigger to precipitate all out war. Everything now depends on the outcome of the emergency NATO meeting being convened. If they invoke article 5 of mutual defence then you can bet the Americans colluded with Erdogan to shoot down this Russian fighter.
I am hearing preliminary reports that NATO will not be invoking the mutual defence clause but these are just preliminary reports meaning mere rumours, as this would go against American plans to confront Russia over Syria (yes they are still hell bent on regime change in Syria and removing president Assad) so we have to await the outcome of the NATO meeting. I am thinking we are about to see a situation unfolding where America and Turkey and possibly some or all of the Baltic states will be for invoking the mutual defence clause and countries like France and Germany dragging their feet.
I do have to say though that I keep getting surprised time and again by the attitude of the Russians towards their western “partners”, almost like they keep on over and over expecting something different from the “west” than what they get. I was watching president Putin at the news conference over this downing of the Sukhoi 24 and you could see from his face that he felt really disappointed and let down and he said they had been “stabbed in the
back” . I sympathise with him and I am sure native American indians who were betrayed treaty after treaty by the European settlers would sympathise too. This is what I meant when I posted a few days ago when I wrote that for the life of me I cannot understand why the Russian lawmakers judge their western counterparts according to their own standards and accord them that civility and trust in their intentions.
The “west” is being run by murderous and amoral psychopaths and they to a man (or woman) are snakes in the grass who cannot be trusted an inch. I just fear that by the time this fact truly sinks into the Russian consciousness they might have lost too much ground to the hegemon.
Isnt it strange that immediately upon Turkey cowardly shooting down this fighter who wasnt expecting such an attack, literally the same as attacking someone from behind when they dont expect it, they go running off to big brother NATO ?

NATO territory needs to be attacked — this means air or ground attack — before article 5 can even be invoked. All this talk about invoking article 5 is just to deter Russia from invading Turkey, which will not happen, anyway. There are plenty of valuable Turkish assets inside Syria. I fail to see how article 5 can help Turkey in its undeclared war against Syria.

Terrorist fighters are saying they shot the pilots as they were parachuting down.One was said to be captured but the terrorists say they murdered him to.Russia needs to bring ALL their tourists from Turkey at once.This is not going to get better.I think Russia will need to destroy the Turkish regime for the good of the World.

Regardless of what Turkey or NATO says, this is the official Russian position, which was stated by Putin. Russia will not change its mind about the details of the incident, which is an act of war by a NATO member state against Russia.

A possible Cuban Missile Crisis moment. But in this case Russia is in the right totally (they were in my opinion then also. But it was “debatable”.). I don’t see Russia backing down. And if the World is to avoid WW3,the West needs to think heavily on their actions.

Agree. However I am extremely skeptical that present (and possibly next) team at the WH is capable and willing to think it through. So when you will see a very bright flash in the sky fall on your back with feet toward the flash and wait to watch your balls to fly off.

first response should be to bomb the hell out of the “Turkmen rebels” area for the murder of the pilot.
I am hearing conflicting news about the second pilot. Reuters reported both pilots dead, some say 1 captured, others say second pilot is in safe area controled by SAA???

I doubt if we will ever know if the order came from the top, from a lower level commander, or was the result of a pilot with an itchy trigger finger. I think the neocons running policy in Washington would have wanted this to happen.
I think equally important was Turkey’s reaction, as noted by Putin . . . they called NATO rather than Moscow. A cowardly response, don’t you think? Shit, we shot down a Russian plane over Syria . . . we need protection!!
Erodgan is worse than a fool. The Russians had offered to set up a pipeline that would have made Turkey rich. Instead, they back ISIS, NATO, and are now on the verge of war with the nation with the most nuclear weapons on Earth. Not to mention Spetznatz

There are some graphic pictures posted by moderate terrorists desecrating the Russian pilots body.. These guys have a death wish.. Not only has erdo gone full retard, Turkey can forget becoming the gas hub or anything else for that matter.. Putin has been fighting the screws on Turkey to make erdo see the error of his ways.. Small sanctions and then bombing hi sons oil tankers.. I bet this goes to a full on sanction for most trade sinking turkey. If Iran joins in then Turkey is toast..

#Putin: the painful accident today will have serious consequences for #Russian-#Turkish relations

Obama likes to use fear as a means of control in the U.S.. Once a community agitator, always a community agitator. Perhaps it is coincidence that a fly no where alert was issued last night. Or was it issued too early?

The neocons seem to be pushing their puppets in Ukraine to incite Russia with the destruction of the power supply to Crimea. By all accounts the U.S. has increased its training of Ukrainian troops. Like we actually can win a ground war ourselves, let alone tell someone else how to.

US ground troops are being sent to Syria. Apparently they are arriving on the slowest planes and boats in the U.S. Or have they been just waiting for the right time? Say something like an ally getting attacked for “defending” their non territory by downing a Russian plane.

War with Russia is what the behind scene elite want. Putin has been a pain for them from the start. He is a threat to their odious one world order. My humble know nothing advice is to turn Europe against Turkey. Calling them a terrorist sponsoring state suggests to me that is what Putin is doing.

Russia has plenty of customers for its oil and gas. And besides, the reserves won’t evaporate if they aren’t sold – they are perfectly safe, waiting in the ground. One could even argue that the nations that preserve the most oil and gas are the ones that will have a huge advantage when others begin to run out.

All Russia needs to do is go on selling enough to meet its budget requirements.

People, please calm down, try to put a lid on your love or hatred (if there is one). This incident should be accessed from many different angles, in spite of the boiling blood. Yes, WW3 is possible and was so ever.
It is also possible that this is aimed at NATO. In short, many even here agree that there is no way any western soldier would ever be sent to die for Turks or “Saudis” or any other non-Anglo-Saxon-zionist nation, NATO member or not. What does it mean? ISIS is just a secondary issue.
What if this is staged to make NATO “stab Turkey in the back”? To draw NATO out in the open to show it’s real face? It would cost Turkey and Russia dearly, for sure, but much cheaper then the other scenario. It was always about Bosphorus and Bosphorus only! Imagine the geo-strategic change in the region. I’d like that!
History teaches us that the most unimaginable twists were possible.

Boris are you saying maybe some kind of false flag or rogue element?
I was wondering that myself.
Seems like enormously risky for Turkey to shoot down Russian military jet.
If NATO doesn’t go off on steroids, it does leave Turkey exposed to Russian wrath . . .
There is something peculiarly repulsive about the idea of shooting a parachutist. One who has just escaped death and is completely vulnerable, hanging in the air, a drifting duck who cannot harm anyone or defend himself. Murder doesn’t get much more cold-blooded than that.

Txrdkey is a terrorist state. Whether the Ru jet was inside Turdkey borders or not, Russia was doing decent work – eradicating terrorists.

Erdogan is now open about it. He was boasting that he would support terror groups, because he sees himself as some sort of “new Ottoman empire” leader. He hated the idea of Russia smashing up the terror gps in Syria.

Erdogan had been exposed as a key backer of terrorism. Like Sakhashvilli, this was a smokescreen, a last roll of the dice for a demon.

Smash this monstrous terrorist, heroin dealing state into small pieces.

I deeply appologize for the evil, malicious acts of my country. Obama’s quick response that Turkey has a right to shoot down Russian planes is an admission of guilt and collusion, coverup, of the US involvement in shooting down the Russian jets. Then shooting the pilot!! I do truly look forward to the day that Obama (and the cabal) is put in a little cage in a zoo where people can throw peanuts and bananas at him.

The US has gone into such a deep ditch, it is impossible to reverse course, so they want to start a war with Russia. This is insane. I just want you to know this does not reflect the will of the people.

I would like to express heartfelt condolences to the families of the victims of this heinous, cowardly act. If I had an address, I would send something.

Comrade President P speaks of a “stab in the back”. This seems to imply that he had some sort of a deal – a deal that’s been violated – and probably a deal that was a deception. His domestic position would seem to leave him less “space” now to avoid reprisals. That’s a pity. Of course it’s been war by the Sea People against the Earth Island People (anglo-american empire v Slavic and Asiatic People) since about 1912, so what’s new is the tactic and weapons. Comrade President is being forced into the third phase, sometimes called WW3. His strategy of delay while economic and military changes evolve to the favor of the Slavs has been working – and the “window of opportunity” for the Sea People to defeat him is closing. Thus the escalation is logical. I’d look for an indirect and proportionate response by Comrade President, one that will tend to split NATO further and isolate the Sultan of Turkey.

claiming that there is a deal between RU and USA about rewriting the political map of the region and that plan, according to the author, came closer to realization after the Geneva peace talks. Part of the plan is to dismantle Saudi Arabia and Turkey by creating Kurdistan. This in no way suits the interests of Turkey. Yet I doubt this is a reason enough for Turkey to act on its own by downing a Russian plane.

Another thing mentioned in the article is the internal struggle between factions within the US establishment. Obama is trying to clean his house of neoconservatives. If we subscribe to this claim as a working hypothesis, then I would expect that neocons along with parts of the British interests to be behind this attack. This indeed looks like yet another of McCain’s unintelligent moves to stir intended to gain support for his militarism.

If this were true I would expect Obama to rush to to Moscow (in person or by sending a special envoy whom he can trust) in order to appease the Russians and probably find the solution for this conflict. I guess he will offer Russia some sort of retaliation that is equal but not too provocative after which they (Putin and Obama) will come out with a “message of peace”.

Obama, according to this theory, will promise to put his dog on the leash without disrupting the NATO alliance by an outright betrayal. Obama will try to sideline Turkey and Erdogan who is extremely unpopular in Washington, but will not give up Turkey alltogeher.

I do not expect the escalation of the conflict, nor WWlll, but rather that US will leave Turkey in the cold and exposed by allowing Russian retaliation in public, while a part of that retaliation will be withheld form the public.

What the retailation will be and how it will played out is impossible to tell, if only for the reason of Putin being smart, cunning and virtually unpredictable.

But, as I said, all of this is based on the claim expressed in the Meyssan’s article which I take as a working hypothesis, not as a fact.

The good thing about it is the optimism concerning the the mayor conflict between Russia and US.

What ever happens the next few days and weeks will be very interesting, just as the entire 2015 and very likely 2016.

By saying “interesting” I intend in no way to offend families of all sides who lost their members in the war so far. Most of them were just victims of a war they never wanted to happen.

re: Russian pilots murdered—In this last week’s Wall Street Journal there was a long article in a very prominent placement by a neocon Kagan in which he called for a ” safe zone” established for “refugees” within Syria using 50,000 US/NATO troops . Yes, the hypocrisy is thunderous and the gall unmitigated. Also he indluded an increase in special forces to 150 ( like that isn’t already happening).

Looks like they are upping the ante for the Russians. If Russia retaliates within Turkey then NATO can be summoned; however, a no fly for Turkish planes within Syria per order by Assad backed by Russia is legal and defensible. Putin will have to do at least that

Obviously a planned zionazi provocation using their boi toi in the Turkish colony. The zio-gay media have already inaugurated their script changes:

Spokesman? Defense Minister? CNN brands ISIS terrorists as ‘officials

“CNN has come out with a new definition of Islamic State leaders. Kalashnikov-wielding militants who cut off captives’ heads, trade slaves and whose hate speeches promise jihad against the whole world are now called “officials”, according to the network.”

The israeloscum are no doubt tickled pink, a Russian-Turk conflict is something they’ve worked hard for. Also, by using their Turk colony to create the provocation, the zionazis are thinking they can scare Russia with the threat of a conflict with nato and stop Russia cleaning up the zionazi terrorist mess in Syria. A zionazi trademark – initiating fights between others so they can profit from it.

Also no doubt, the Russians have been expecting their zionazi enemy to up the stakes in this sort of chickenshit manner (trademark of zionazi cowardice), and have worked out a way to defeat this strategy. Taking this to the UN is part of that Russian strategy, part of the legal part, that is.

It’s important to keep in mind that this war on Syria is an Israeli war, nato, USA, the pet Arab states and the terrorists are all simply zionazi tools being used to destroy Syria. Russia, by coming to syria’s defense, has made it clear to Israel that they can’t have Syria.

But I am surprised you didn’t mention Iran? I believe that is the best card in Russia’s hands. Why not bring Iranian army now to Syria, all the way to the borders of Israel ??? Why not?! To expose this war for what it really is – a war between Israel and it’s colonies (USA, NATO, the pet Arab states, ISIS, etc.) against Russia, who’s only allies are Iran and hopefully China ?!

Russia knows very well that Turkey is a direct and deliberate sponsor of ISIS, both in terms of allowing supply routes to ISIS from Turkey and oil exports to Turkey from ISIS-controlled areas in Syria. And that is precisely what the Russian air operations have been directed against, as that is the only way to degrade ISIS in Syria – cut off its supplies and its revenue.

Therefore Putin knows quite well that this attack – coming as it does within days of Russian jets destroying hundreds of oil tankers going into Turkey – is a deliberate act of aggression against Russia by Turkey.

If there had been a real violation of Turkish air space, Turkey could have escorted the Russian jet out of Turkish airspace or forced it down to a Turkish air field. Or Turkey could have merely complained again to NATO and the UN. Instead they shot the plane down. That is deliberate aggression.

Putin is going to have to react to this forcefully. If the report that Russia has cut all gas exports to Turkey is true, that would be the least I would expect from him. I am sure he will also complain to the UN Security Council and to NATO.

The real question is: Was this attack initiated by Turkey on its own or was it cleared with Washington first? That is what Putin will be weighing before deciding on how to further react.

If I were Putin at this point, I would send a SHIT-LOAD of Russian jets to Syria as soon as new facilities can be set up to support them. Not just the additional 50 he’s already sending, but maybe a hundred more as feasible. I would also send as many of the latest Russian air-to-air fighters as possible to escort the bombers and ground support fighters. I would also make sure I had aerial radar assets reaching deep into Turkey to detect when Turkish fighters are approaching any Russian assets to enable Russian air-to-air fighters to intercept them before they can attack Russian jets engaged in anti-insurgent operations. And I would set up a fast-reaction system to enable the orders to engage Turkish fighters quickly if necessary. I would also set up more S-300 and S-400 air defence systems aimed in the direction of Turkey.

In short, make the de facto “no-fly” zone even more impenetrable. But the primary goal remains the destruction of ISIS supply routes and revenue routes between Turkey and Syria.

Putin’s first comments on the shoot-down of a Russian SU-24 by Turkey as reported by RT are quite something. Each sentence is very precise, incredibly clear-sighted and full of most serious implications. A veritable crisis diplomacy 101.

” Turkey backstabbed Russia by downing the Russian warplane and acted as accomplices of the terrorists, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

The plane was hit by a Turkish warplane as it was travelling 1 km away from the Turkish border, Putin said. The plane posed no threat to Turkish national security, he stressed.

Putin said the plane was targeting terrorist targets in the Latakia province of Syria, many of whom came from Russia.

Russia noticed of the flow of oil from Syrian territory under the control of terrorists to Turkey, Putin said.

Apparently, IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world, he added.

The incident will have grave consequences for Russia’s relations with Turkey, Putin warned.

The fact that Turkey did not try to contact Russia in the wake of the incident and rushed to call a NATO meeting instead is worrisome, Putin said. It appears that Turkey want NATO to serve the interests of IS, he added.

Putin said Russia respects the regional interests of other nations, but warned the atrocity committed by Turkey would not go without an answer.”

” >> It appears that Turkey wants NATO to serve the interests of IS >>, he added”.

Some understatement. By devastating Syria, these Islamofascist dregs serve the interests of Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the Sheikh fiefdoms to boot. However, in addition, IS has also been willing to lend a helping hand to the Ukronazis. Now, it’s quite unlikely that the average IS head-chopper has any commitment whatsoever to Bandera, however like-minded the latter. Conclusion: IS attacks countries and governments ultimately as per Western instructions. The Zionist Entity has nothing to be worried about here.

Problem is there’s no viable, capable alternative. He played the war-card and won the elections. Turkish public has a very strong, deeprooted nationalistic reflex and Erdogan succesfully exploited this.

Sad thing is, the most reasonable voice in Turkish politics today is Demirtas, leader of the Kurdish-linked HDP(as an ethnic Turk it is VERY hard for me to reach this conclusion).

They made some attempts to reach out to the Turkish (leftist) mainstream but Erdogan’s control of the press is such that other voices do no reach them.

To the extent that they do, their links to PKK(whether real or merely in accusation) and the fact that HDP has to avoid alienating their core Kurdish constituency made it unsuccesfull.

I think Erdogan didn’t do this on his own but got assurances from American hardliners(2016 elections…) who are trying to strong arm Obama’s stance vis à vis Russia.

If he(and I hope Obama will) manages to succesfully descalate this, Turkey will be left holding the bag and play the part of the proverbial fan.

You would’ve hoped Erdogan took notes when that tie eating moron from Georgia got clubbered and nearly destroyed his country egged on by Israel and the neo-cons.

There’s a domestic side to this as well: in the previous elections when Erdogan didn’t get an absolute majority MHP, the nationalist party under the geriatric leader Bahceli refused any coalition.

His party got punished in the election for it, falling even behind the HDP(from 80 to 40 seats!).

Just this week suprisingly a serious contender arose for the party leadership elections.
This is big because Bahceli has been sitting there since the 90’s and running the party like a fief despite losing general election after election.

Till now the party eletions were unopposed or no serious contender.

The new candidate is sure to win the election since the daughter of Turkes gave her support.

For those not familiar: Turkes, now dead and still virtually worshipped by the hardcore nationalists founded MHP and was an oldschool fascist before under Bahceli MHP became more mainstream.

What drew my attention just days ago was at the speech were Sinan Ogan announced his candidacy, flags of the Turkmen minority in Syria were prominently present.

Erdogan had just announced also this week material support for this group and the general demeanour of Ogan remarks were an attack on the government as this being too little, too late.

Also that same day there was a protest march by MHP supporters all carrying the Turkmen flag.

And now we have a plane shoot down with the same Turkmen group on hand to kill/capture the pilots.

I don’t believe in concidences.

Erdogan has been chasing a super majority of 367/550 seats to change the constitution ever since he got into power and install a presidential system which give him even more powers.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Ogan wins the elections, backs Erdogan’s attempts so with MHP’s current 40 seats they would only be 10 votes short.

At the very least they would be able to force a referendum which needs 330 votes.

The only silver lining here is that Putin/Lavrov are intelligent, reasonable peopl even they have their braking point: this provocation and senseless act is going put enormous pressure on them domestically I imagine.

Let’s hope Putin can read Turkish internal politics intelligently and hit Erdogan in a manner that will turn Turkish public opinion against him.

There’s a global faction of freaks(and that’s putting it politely) which is hellbent on war it seems and Putin’s coolheadedness is all that stands in their way.

I liked Turkey’s foreign policy up until the Syria intervention and then everything fell apart. I read somewhere that there is a rule in Turkey about never getting involved in inter-Arab conflicts. Erdogan forgot that rule and he doesn’t seem like someone who backs down when he makes an error. Is there any indication how the Turkish military feels about what happened?

We have the same problem here in the U.S. of having no one to vote for. Good luck finding an alternative.

They through the constitutional court and veiled threats of a coup(some journalists even openly called the army to do this) tried to block Abdullah Gul’s candidacy to the presidency.

Gul was meant as a placeholder till Erdogan could take up the position as he later did.

Erdogan called their bluff, they flinched and he launched a fraudulent, ever expanding and politised criminal investigation into an alleged(probably true) military plot dating back tot 2003 to topple AKP called ‘Sledgehammer’.

This resulted in many (even most in the navy)officers opposing AKP being jailed and driven into resignation.

Ultimately it was the US not giving to go-ahead for a coup(as in the past) that stopped the military from intervening.

Even more, It was the CIA run Gulen network who had infiltrated the police and judiciary who executed the take-down of the army.

The Chiefs of staff are now fully pro AKP as far as I can tell.

It would take some (military) setbacks for general discontent to arise in the ranks I imagine and even then a coup is unlikely to highly improbable

The army is happy for now with the tough stance taken against PKK since the elections.

The nationalists(which I presume are abundant in the army) were also clamoring for a tougher stance against Russia since it started hitting Turkmen rebels in Syria last week, so army is quite content now.

Thank you Soedar for putting the situation in context. Your analysis-especially concerning the nationalist party-is really helpful. is really helpful

Back in 2012 I got the notion that the Russians might reinforce their naval base (which didn’t amount to much) at Tartus to the extent of posting marines and state of the art (S-300) AA. I was disappointed that they didn’t, but in considering it I scanned maps and remote sensing images and looked, as best I could, into the ethnic politics thereabout. Syria, like Lebanon (which, by one count, boasts 12 well defined militias not counting local self defense groups) is given to regional militias and I noticed two along the coast. One is the Christian militia south of Tartus in “the valley of the Christians) that had much to do with the defeat of jihadis (partly made up os Sunnis from Tripoli, Lebanon). The other is the Turkmen militia deriving from Turkmen villages in the northwest.

This militia surely isn’t part of a Turkish “invasion”; the local men and boys manning it think of themselves as defenders of their communities. And yes, maybe al Nusra has moved, to a degree, into their sub-region, and they are influenced by Turkish agents, but I am still puzzled as to why the Syrians and Russians have seen fit to launch an offensive against them and–in particular- bomb these mountain villages. It makes me really uneasy to see the Russians–make no mistake I am a strong supporter of Russian intervention–adopting tactics all too reminiscent of the tactics used by the US and the colonial powers, against local people. And all this bloody minded talk about about zapping the Turkomen makes me sick. These villagers are modest people, poor people, trying to raise their families. Yes, they fight, but after all they are fighting defensively in the areas where they live.

This British started bombing Kurdish villages in the early 20’s; the flier later known as “Bomber” Harris bragged that his squadron could wipe our half a “misbehaving” village in one raid. Churchill went one better, insisting on mustard gas. And so it has been for almost 100 years.

It will be a great tragedy if the Russians wind up throwing away moral advantage by copying the tactics of their enemies.

Russia is a member of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation. Russia is also a member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

Today RT is saying the hope is that NATO, at their emergency meeting today will “stand up to Turkey” ! ! !
Is the hope that NATO will do the “decent thing” because the two above mentioned organisations will not do or say anything and what in your opinion is the purpose of them if Russia is being attacked.
In particular could you identify all the ways in which China is helping its “strategic partner”, Russia in it’s struggle against global terrorism.
Does Russia’s “survival” have to depend on the goodwill of NATO because it’s own “allies” will do nothing?

No offense to any decent Turks but having lived in Azerbaijan for several years I had a taste of the treacherous and deceiving nature of their kind. Stubbing in the back, treachery, and deceit is not considered dishonor in the Middle East (primarily in Turkey) but an act of great virtue and smart politics. For them honesty and decency IS the sign of weakness. What a f@cked-up backward culture. No wonder the West can rely on them with no fail – their treachery is as predictable as the Sun rising in the East.

You claim you are Turk and sound like a reasonable guy. I apologize if my words hit too harsh. My bad. I was too worked up by the news. Nevertheless, I stand behind by the essence of what I claim. One cannot disregard one’s own life experiences. Not everyone in Azerbaijan (or Turkey for that matter) is a treacherous and dishonest person. That would be an idiotic thing to claim. However, exceptions do not make the rule, and culture is not made by them but by the majority. There is a saying “If you live among wolves you have to act like a wolf.”

I think there are two possibilities on the reasons for the shoot down of the plane.

1.That it was done by Turkey on their own,without the US giving permission. I think Erdogan is crazy enough to do that. He see’s he’s losing in Syria. And after getting an election victory (even if a corrupted victory),he has the internal power to not worry. He thinks he can get NATO’s help and wanted to take revenge on Russia.

2.I posted yesterday about NATO having troops in Ukraine for a “supposed” military exercise. What “if” the shoot down is tied to that. NATO preparing with Ukraine for a war against Russia. Having NATO troops already positioned to take action. In that case the shoot down and the aftermath is part of the plan to cause the outbreak of war. If that is true,they’ve made a serious fatal error. The worst of all times to attack Russia is in the winter. Russians are masters of winter warfare. And we will see the end of NATO over that error.

Time will show if one or either of those possibilities are correct. I’m hoping if either is right,its number 1. Number 2,is a long-shot. Still,with the level of insanity in the West,I can’t rule it out.

I think that there is a definite link between the Turkish provocation and the sabotage of power distribution in “the Tatar native land”. That came after a spate of reports about “human rights” abuses against the Tatars “in their native land” by Russian Govt and FSB.
“Termination of electricity supply to the annexed Crimea could be the next step in the blockade of the peninsula, the leader of the Majlis of the Crimean Tatar people Refat Chubarov claimed”…”Earlier, the leader of the Crimean Tatars, Mustafa Dzhemilev stated that the issue of termination of the electricity supply in Crimea from mainland Ukraine will soon raise in front of the Ukrainian government. Dzhemilev expressed opinion that in the part of the Ukrainian authorities there are grounds for the continuation of electricity delivery to the Crimea, Censor.net.

Erdogan took the mantle of Tatars protector (as well as the Turkmens in Syria)

“Turkey did not and will not recognize Crimea’s annexation. Our priority in the Ukrainian crisis is peace, prosperity and security for Crimean Tatars. We are taking every step and conducting all necessary negotiations in order to overcome pressure and difficulties they are facing. You can be sure that we will continue our support,” the address to the Second World Congress of the Crimean Tatars held in Ankara over the weekend reads.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150803/1025364190.html#ixzz3sSI21hoP

The Turkish government fears a coalition between Russia, France and others. Such a coalition fighting really against ISIS and all other gangsters would reveal that they were supporting heavily the terrorists.

I am sure that is Obama’s nightmare as well.
Like I said, the best outcome would be for Turkey to be kicked out of NATO, but it’s highly unlikely, based on past experience with the brain dead European elites in power.

A former jet fighter pilot of the US, says that from the Turkish radar map indicating Russian jet over their territory could only be for a few seconds.

So, Turkey was looking hard for an opportunity to shoot down the Russian jet.

Clearly, their case for intrusion into their airspace is specious.

But it was inevitable. Turkey is an enemy of Assad, wants to destroy Syria, and supports terrorism in Syria and Iraq to its own interests, and also, is backing Crimean Tartar terrorism in Crimea.

There can be no bright future for Turkey which will soon be in a three front war. Kurds, Syrians, and internally, after Russia uses economic weapons to cripple the Turkish government.

Erdogan escaped civil war in time for the elections he just won. But he will send Turkey to hell with his strategies.

The Turkmen in Latakia will be wiped out by Spetsnaz in the coming months. Especially, once it is clearly established the rescue helicopter was shot down, and the two pilots executed as they parachuted.

I tend to think that Kaydrov will send “volunteers” to hunt down and clean out the Turkmen, also.

Keep in mind that Russia has long needed and tried to achieve control over the straits… As this war plays out some may expect that the status quo post hoc will see a Russian flag flying over the entrance to the Black Sea.

True,but in those days the shoot downs weren’t reported until time had gone by. I don’t recall any Soviet planes shot down. And the US planes shot down were always over Soviet airspace on spying missions (one over Cuban airspace). They weren’t over other countries when shot down. In today’s World this shoot down was reported instantly,and was an “in your face” shoot down of the plane. And then the murder of the pilots. This is a much more serious case.

Many MiGs over Korea and many Soviet planes strafed on the ground inside Russia by the US Air Force, those were lend-leased aircobras. Still, most that we know of that were shot down in coldwar were US on intel missions, mostly.

Remember how he won the elections. Suddenly he opened the borders and let out a stream of refugees. And then he came with a big list of conditions for closing the border again.

The sensible reaction by the EU would have been to scold him back to Ankara and to publicly declare that it refuses to be blackmailed and that as long as Erdogan is in power the chances for EU membership are zero.

Instead the EU succumbed to the blackmail and gave Erdogan everything he wanted. He got a more liberal visa regime – although the details still need to be worked out. And Merkel publicly declared in Istanbul that the agreement on the refugees had brought Turkey closer to EU membership. It is not unlikely that this gave Erdogan his election victory.

Of course, when you show that you can be blackmailed it will never stop. And true to form Erdogan hasn’t delivered on his promises.

All this raises the question: were those Eurocrats so dumb? Or were some of them obeying demands form Washington?

My guess is that Russia will do all the diplomatically required actions, then Russia’s necessary assets will show up in Syria to enforce control over Syrian airspace. Then, we will see what else will Russia do in reaction to Turkey’s stupidity. I can also expect and Adlai Stevenson-like moment (uSA did at the UN during the Cuban missle crisis) and place the evidence before the world as to who is complicit in funding ISIS/L.

Turkey and others bordering Syria better dismantle any training camps now and remove any and all traces.

A sequence of events:
Russian attacks demonstrating the farce Yankee fighting Daesh.
Americans sent jets to Turkey. Coalition enters Russia and France. France does not call NATO to establish strategies after the attacks in Paris.
In other words, Turkey was chosen to do the dirty work of the Yankees, who, as always, prefer to use their vassals rather than commit themselves in a fight against an opponent who represents real danger. And put NATO in the game …
I think we have the most dangerous situation for the world (and more delicate to Russia) since the incident of Cuba …
Again we will see the greatest living strategist – Putin, move his pieces …
How can Russia pass the murder of his two pilots by the Kurdsman rebels (if confirmed the veracity of the videos) and the fall of his plane?

Russia will clearly need to deploy long-range SAMs in government-controlled territory for the future. If you fire on our jets, we will fire on you.

As a direct retaliation against Turkey, I would expect some kind of economic measure. Russia, through surveillance (they have satellites and drones) at this point must have utterly incontrovertible evidence that Turkey *directly* supports Daesh. It’s been no secret among news outlets such as saker and others; the evidence has been converging around Turkey being the prime State sponsor of ISIS, with other western approval.

The wildcard here is France; they just got lit up by Turkey’s (and the US’s) pets. They will be the lynchpin (as has been with all the wars in the past 20 years) upon which this all pivots.

“The wildcard here is France; they just got lit up by Turkey’s (and the US’s) pets [..]”

Forget it. US pet poodle Hollande is in the US right now, meeting with Oblamo. They’ve already issue statements about what they’ve discussed… It’s back to a strategy of ISIS “containment” (not destroying), and Assad must go.

“Why would NATO tie its fate to a fascist dictatorship like Turkey? Madness”

Birds of a feather…
Evil tends to gravitate towards evil. They might fight with each other competing for supremacy amongst themselves, but when they go after a common ‘enemy’ they stick together like sh!t on Velcro.

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