New Orleans Hornets Jan. 17th, 7:30 PM

If he can play the PG effectively than why is he continually replaced at the position on every team he goes to ? Get over it? What does that even have to do with anything. I got into a conversation about CB that was STARTED by someone else.

You said that Stuck wasn't replaced in the line-up b/c we struggled with AI at PG. You were wrong. You said that AI only played the 2 in DEN b/c AC was a 1 and that the only two guards worth playing on their team. Again you were wrong. Another guard not named Smith or Carter played the 2 with AI for the beginning of the season.

Are we back to to giving it time. What game will determine if he's a better fit? # 82? And why are we even talking about who's a better fit ? The discussion is about AI's ability to play PG and a poster pointed out that he/she doesn't feel that AI is free enough and compared it to him not having free reign like a PG.

Maybe instead of me getting off CB's jock as you say, you should think before you post.

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You can say "You were wrong" all you want but you have nothing backing up your statements like I have done.

Lets begin with AI being replaced at PG on every team he has been on...
In his rookie season he mainly played PG while Stackhouse played SG.
In 1996-97 AI played over 40 mpg while Stackhouse played 37.5 mpg which consumed most of the backcourt time. In his rookie season (playing the PG position) he averaged over 23 ppg and 7 apg.

In 1998 again AI and Stack played most of the time in the backcourt. Snow just got on the team and played 18 mpg. McKie played 23 mpg. McKie and Stackhouse, can we agree?, played SG. This meant AI was the PG.

Now it is too time consuming to go through each year so I will go to the year the Sixers "replaced AI at PG".

In 2000 the Sixers main guards were McKie, Hughes, Snow, and AI.

McKie averaged less than 3 APG a game, Hughes about 1.5 APG, but they played less than AI so it is not right to compare their ability to play PG for the Sixers to him.

On the other hand. Snow averaged 3 more APG than AI did that year, but he averaged 70% less points per game. They also only had about a 5 mpg difference too.

AI was not replaced at PG. AI just outscored Snow more than Snow outassisted him so AI naturally moved to the SG position with some minutes here and there from Hughes and McKie.

In Denver I do not know who this other player is that you are talking about. Out of the 3 players I mentioned AI, Carter, and Smith. AI played both PG and SG, PG with Smith, and SG with Carter. He was not replaced. He just did not play PG all the time because Carter could not play SG.

And as for Detroit AI has not been replaced by anyone because he is the one who is coming in. In fact he replaced Rip in the backcourt, who replaced Tayshaun at SF, who replaces Amir at PF.

See unlike you I actually have facts backing up what I say instead of talking out of my ***. The problem is you "think" too much before you post and all your post is are your thoughts, which at the end of the day are not more valuable than anyone elses.

Because Larry Brown said that he wasn't a PG and therefore every other sheep at the head coach position followed suit. All except Jim O'Brien and he made Allen the PG of his Sixers teams. Do you want to know what happened those two years? Allen went for 30.7 ppg and 7.9 apg during the first season and for 33 ppg and 7.4 apg the next season. If he could rebound at a higher clip, he could've actually tried to do a Big O.

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What was the win/loss record of those two years? Did he make the team better when he played PG? To me that's what someone who is effective at the position should be able to do.

Do you honestly believe that Dwyane Wade is or ever was an effective PG? Because Pat Riley thought so.

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Wade handles the ball but under Riley Jason Williams played PG.

Do you really think Tony Parker does much of anything that Allen can't do?

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Win ?

Do you really think that Larry Brown would give Chris Paul anything but a hard time? Those three players have the trust of their coaches to simply play the game the best way they know how.

Do you really think that those three guys weren't heavily influenced by watching Allen Iverson while growing up?

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Whether CP3 watched him or not, he's a completely different player. It's not just trust from his coach that makes him good at his position.

Also LB gives everyone a hard time. It's part of his pessimistic outlook on life.

None of them would've survived under Larry Brown. Go back through Larry's career and see how he deals with players that would be good to great with or without him (Reggie, David Robinson, Jalen Rose, Danny Manning the pro, etc.) and then notice how he practically worships the Haywoode Workman and Eric Snows of the world. The latter are much closer to what he was as a professional player, the former are not.

Heck, Larry had plenty of chances to coach Chauncey Billups prior to coming to Detroit and he never wanted him, because he wasn't a "real PG." You do realize that the only reason Larry could tolerate Chauncey is because Allen wore him down for seven years prior, right? Chauncey would've been on the first plane smoking if Larry had the power to do so.

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From what i recall LB tried to get Chauncey traded. However, Chauncey changed his game tremondously under LB, and learned to play PG. He credits LB with teaching him that he doesn't have to score to impact the game. Pre-LB Billups and post LB Billups are very different players. His shot selection and decision making were vastly improved.

The days of "the real PG" are over. Allen Iverson killed him. The only "real PG" you'll see again, is the short guy that can't shoot for squat. Otherwise, you'll see a guy that is given the ball with the hopes that he'll occasionally pass it the other dudes on the floor.

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I'm not concerned with AI being a real PG. My concern is whether he can effectively play PG which IMO he hasn't shown. There are plenty of players that play PG that aren't true PG's, but they can still do it efficiently enough that the team doesn't suffer.

See unlike you I actually have facts backing up what I say instead of talking out of my ***. The problem is you "think" too much before you post and all your post is are your thoughts, which at the end of the day are not more valuable than anyone elses.

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I got to disagree. You have an opinion about whose "thoughts" are more valueable. I have mine. I value LP Girls thoughts far higher than any other poster I read here. Thats my opinion. I am truly glad she posts here. She gets a whole lot of things right. (but this whole debate, AI vs. Billups, is an example where I think its a pointless subject. I don't agree with her on everything, just the vast majority of things.)

You do realize that you are the only one on your side of the argument right? the only way that changes is if you give me some proof because again all you are doing is talking. Convince me that one of the all time greats cannot play PG.

I got to disagree. You have an opinion about whose "thoughts" are more valueable. I have mine. I value LP Girls thoughts far higher than any other poster I read here. Thats my opinion. I am truly glad she posts here. She gets a whole lot of things right. (but this whole debate, AI vs. Billups, is an example where I think its a pointless subject. I don't agree with her on everything, just the vast majority of things.)

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Since when did you get in the argument? And my opinion on whose thoughts are more valuable is neutral. I said her opinion is just as good as anybody elses but not better.

You do realize that you are the only one on your side of the argument right? the only way that changes is if you give me some proof because again all you are doing is talking. Convince me that one of the all time greats cannot play PG.

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Since you did not quote anything, I do not know who you are talking to. Clue us in, thanks.

Question: If a guy gives the the ball up to another guy and then gets out the way, who is really the PG (or play maker)?

Thats why i'm not sure about Stuckey and AI because Stuckey seem to do most of the driving AI would do. He also kicks it out less from what i've seen. But the Pistons where winning so it wasn't a problem.

What was the win/loss record of those two years? Did he make the team better when he played PG? To me that's what someone who is effective at the position should be able to do.

I don't know. Ask Andre Iguodala, Kyle Korver and Samuel Dalembert how they all got big time contracts while playing with Allen and all appear to be looking like bank robbers and trade bait now.

Wade handles the ball but under Riley Jason Williams played PG.

Dwyane started his career as a PG and then surprise, surprise, he was moved to SG, sort of like Allen and then he has gone back to PG in following years. Something about putting the ball in your best player's hands kind of nonsense.

Win ?

Ha! Prior to winning a championship with a guy that I like to call Tim Duncan! Tony Parker was openly shopped around the League and wasthisclose to being traded for Jason Kidd. Tim won another championship and overnight, Tony Parker became an elite PG.

Whether CP3 watched him or not, he's a completely different player. It's not just trust from his coach that makes him good at his position.

He's a completely different player because he doesn't have tattoos, cornrows and Larry Genius screaming from the rooftops that he can't play PG. Chris Paul would've been moved from the PG to SG right after the first high kick, dribble under the legs, fake out to the basket if Larry was his coach.

Byron Scott played with Magic Johnson so he understands that the unorthodox PG is quite possibly the best one. Larry does not like any PG that can do something he couldn't do.

From what i recall LB tried to get Chauncey traded. However, Chauncey changed his game tremendously under LB, and learned to play PG. He credits LB with teaching him that he doesn't have to score to impact the game. Pre-LB Billups and post LB Billups are very different players. His shot selection and decision making were vastly improved.

No, Joe Dumars told Larry to suck it up and that Chauncey wasn't leaving. Chauncey sucked up to Larry and gave him credit for his "new game" and Larry had another player that he could claim he coached up to be great. Once again, Chauncey was a journeyman that Larry "could mold" just like Haywoode and Eric.

I'm not concerned with AI being a real PG. My concern is whether he can effectively play PG which IMO he hasn't shown. There are plenty of players that play PG that aren't true PG's, but they can still do it efficiently enough that the team doesn't suffer.

Oh, and Allen as the PG with Detroit?

Sacramento 30 and 9. Golden State 23 and 9. Los Angeles 25 and 4. Three wins. Shortly after that, the shackles went on and small ball went off.

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I'm not saying that Allen would be the perfect PG for this team, but I am saying that it should've been given longer than 7 game stretch. As for Allen saying that Rodney is the better PG, he's not going to badmouth Rodney or look like it's all about him, that's just not his style.

The team is in disarray. We can't play three guards and win so either Rip, AI or Stuckey have to come off the bench and be on the bench at the finish.

The Piston problems are deeper though. Sheed and Dyss are aging in front of our eyes. The young bigs do not play with consistency and with little offense. If Maxiel played like he did tonight, the missed free throws and limited offense would not be a problem.

I think Curry is a scapegoat for fans. Curry didn't trade Chauncey for another guard. Joe did. We needed a big. Maybe none available?? But that is not on Curry. Rip has also been a scapegoat. He is a good shooter and not the reason the team is losing.

Don't understand the uncritical embrace of AI by Piston fans. I like the guy and have kept an open mind and waited. But man after awhile, he clanks jumpers since he has been here. I like his 10 to 12 foot shot but that has been it. He is 33 and cannot take it to the hoop night in and night out. Haven't seen it. I think he may be valuable in the playoffs and in key games. But I doubt seriously that the Pistons could win with AI as a volume shooter these days. Tonight was about right at 10 shots maybe a few more. In key games, I think he will get to the line and help.

Stuckey should go back to the bench. That will save face for AI and Rip and he is the only guard anyway who could carry the offensively challenged second quarter unit we have had in many games. Stuck has been deferring to the vets something fierce the last few games. He had an open three in the fourth, passed to Rip I think who tried to pass down low to Dyss--turnover. That is why our offense is so bad. Players are afraid to shoot when the shot is there.

They did show something before the Pistons played the Bulls showing how Rose matched up against other PG's who were drafted # 1. He was right there with Isiah & Magic, but this one fellow who I can't remember avg 26.5 ppg and 7.5 assists his rookie year far surpassing the other 3. I wish I could remember his name or initials.

Back to the game. For most of the first half the Pistons were in control but led by 2 points. This has been the reoccurring theme of small ball. I am severely depressed right now.

The 3rd quarter they trail by what seems like a monumental 4 points and battle back to tie the game. They are playing hard. NO goes down the floor and immediately scores when Chandler posts up Tay 2 feet from the hoop. This could be a random happening against an NBA line-up, but is all to typical of the stench that has enveloped this team.

The Sheed/Dyess pairing did kill them at the end. I was never against it, in fact I was for it in the past, but now they should go with a Sheed/Max or Dyess/Max etc etc.

I think AI's D was good in this game and really, overall has been. I'm not sure what people expect out of him sometimes.

When it was 85-81 I knew it was over and I knew it was 3 time at The Palace. Sheed can hit the shot, but good lord. He looked like Maxey shooting them tonight. Of the many things that have changed since LB left, the patience when trailing at the end of games that would often put pressure on other teams is at worst 1A.

I think middle of the pack is kind of high for them right now. They should be in the bottom ten power rankings-wise. I feel exactly as I felt prior to TG going out. Hopeless. Their play when he was out was not a mirage. You can see the glimmers lurking.

As long as TG & AI are both there you will get less from each of them. TG isn't dogging it, he's not pouting or throwing games. I'll even go back to calling him Rip, but it can't work. There is only one A in the alphabet.

McKie averaged less than 3 APG a game, Hughes about 1.5 APG, but they played less than AI so it is not right to compare their ability to play PG for the Sixers to him.

On the other hand. Snow averaged 3 more APG than AI did that year, but he averaged 70% less points per game. They also only had about a 5 mpg difference too.
AI was not replaced at PG. AI just outscored Snow more than Snow outassisted him so AI naturally moved to the SG position with some minutes here and there from Hughes and McKie.

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Are we rewriting history now? The AI fan below just stated that LB did not believe could or was effective at PG hence Eric Snow played PG. AI didn't naturally move to the position because he scored more.

And as for Detroit AI has not been replaced by anyone because he is the one who is coming in. In fact he replaced Rip in the backcourt, who replaced Tayshaun at SF, who replaces Amir at PF.

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Hello? AI started at PG. Then he was replaced by Stuck at PG.

Where have you proven what i said was wrong ? Again you said that Stuck was inserted in the line-up not to replace AI at PG b/c the team was struggling but because the "five best players were needed on the floor". I said;

Are you kidding? It was b/c we were struggling like hell with AI at PG. AI even said himself that the offense runs smoother with Stuckey at PG, and so did Curry. And AI went on to later say that he wasn't brought here to play PG and he's better at SG and DET must have known what they were doing with setting up Stuckey to take over.

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Do you need me to look for those quotes by AI or Curry saying that the offense runs better with Stuck at PG and that's why we need him in the line-up ?

In Denver I do not know who this other player is that you are talking about. Out of the 3 players I mentioned AI, Carter, and Smith. AI played both PG and SG, PG with Smith, and SG with Carter. He was not replaced. He just did not play PG all the time because Carter could not play SG.

Please go talk to DEN fans. They will explain to you why Carter was put into the SL.

I think your definition of "facts" might be different than the rest of the human population.

You do realize that you are the only one on your side of the argument right? the only way that changes is if you give me some proof because again all you are doing is talking. Convince me that one of the all time greats cannot play PG.

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Actually i'm not. I know that. I don't have to convince you of anything. I'm giving you quotes from the actual Pistons coach and AI himself stating that Stuckey was inserted into the line-up to run the offense and that it runs better and that's why he's in the SL. You're giving me speculation.

Diawara was supposed to be a defensive specialist that could shoot threes. He couldn't do either. He wasn't the PG. He was the SG. Barely.

Perhaps, you're searching for Steve Blake?

Eric Snow was a ball caddy that brought the ball across the halfcourt line, waited for Allen to run through picks and then passed him the ball. That's where 90% of his assists came from.

Allen was the PG for the team while wearing the SG label. If you don't want to call him the point guard for the Sixers, you can call him the Playmaker Guy, but he was the PG.

Want to know how great of a PG Eric Snow was? Go watch his games in Cleveland. They attempted to have him do for LeBron what he "did" for Allen and they quickly realized that he didn't do anything but make it easier for his defender to double LeBron, just like he did for Allen in Philly.

Seems like the all of the arguments of the last 20 posts should have been in an AI thread..unless he is the reason why they lost this game to the Hornets....yeah his turnover crossing center court may have had an affect on the outcome of the game, but as Lee pointed out, this loss should be blamed on the coach, as should the last 4 games and to a lesser extent Joe...

In a nutshell, MC Smallballs is way over his head and Joe made a mistake trading Billups for AI with the guards we already have on this team. You basically got rid of your bench coach in Flip and then your floor coach in Billups. No one else has stepped up to be the leader other than Tay occasionally.

If we had to deal Billups to Denver, believe it or not we probably would have been better off if it had been Carmelo for CB instead of AI...or even Nene and JR for CB as we would have least got a big man and a shooter off the bench.

The AI -Rip deal is not working with Stuckey as he never knows who pass to and now just defers because he probably has been instructed to by that lameduck (I hope ) coach...

AI and JR actually played well together. JR just makes dumb decisions sometimes and ended up in the doghouse. A lot of Denver fans couldn't see the point in Carter starting since AI was the playmaker anyway and Carter couldn't shoot so its like 4 on 5 on offense.