The only meaningful ranking of lamas from the four sects is a political one. Any other ranking is a step towards dissolution of the schools into the Gelug.

I do not equate a political Karmapa with Kagyu power: the point is again that a political Karmapa goes hand in hand with the dissolution of the Kagyu in accord with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

As for resistance to a political Karmapa from hardline Gelugpas - see the NKT and their eastern counterparts.

conebeckham wrote:Actually, according to "Tibetan High Tulku Hierarchy," HH Sakya Trizin is the number two guy....HH Karmapa is third in line....if you care about such things. From a purely political point of view, the Panchen Lama would be the number two guy, at least in recent Tibetan historical terms.

In Tibet, you know, politcs and tulkus went together. Although HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje stated something to the effect that Karmapas have never been involved in politics, that's not entirely true. At various times throughout Tibetan history, HH Karmapa, HH Sakya Trizin, and other high tulkus inside and outside the Geluk lineage have played political roles, both in Tibet, and in China, Mongolia and other lands bordering "Tibet" proper.

It's possible that the Tibetan Government structure will move toward a more democratic model, and less direct influence from High Lamas may be part of that. Also notable that, in Tibetan politics, the Geluk order has been the most influential for more than a century, and I would wonder about the Tibetan political machine supporting a move toward Kagyu power. It's my wish that all of the institutional lineages remain relevant, and equal, and that Lamas focus on propagating the Dharma instead of involving themselves primarily in politics. But, you know, public figures are political by nature.

As for the "Tibetan Cause" having a figurehead on the World Stage, I don't know what will happen.

Your post is very relevant to the thread on HHDL's resignation as political head, and creating a democracy.

It begs all sorts of questions about the nature of that power within an Indian democracy or within Tibet under Chinese rule.Maybe the first question to ask is whether there needs to be a replacement at all, and if there needs to be an overall political or even religious leader. Could the schools follow their own paths with mutual respect and synergy/symbiosis without an over-arching leader?

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

The Dalai Lama was the king of Tibet. He still is a Tulku with his own monastery. He have never been the head of the Gelug. He is definitely a lama in the spirit of Rimey, he is taking teachings and teaching from all lineages including the Bon. He have said since the 60s that he is the last Dalai Lama and that he want the Tibetan people to have democracy. If he is close to the Karmapa it is without doubt just because they have a teacher-disciple relationship. So what is this paranoia based in? Some ridiculous articles written by some ill-informed journalists?

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Frankly, the "politics" thing is used to somehow imply that some Lamas are somehow "less spiritual" (let's say, "less concerned with the primacy of transmssion and practice of Dharma," to flesh it out a bit more) when they "engage in politics."

Conversely, to be "non-political" as a Lama implies that one is "spiritually pure" presumably because one does not involve one's Dharma with samsaric activity...at least, that is how I understand the issue.

I do suppose that if one were truly a political figure, i.e., involved in government affairs, the burden of such involvement may leave one less time for formal practice and transmission, etc. Though HH the Dalai Lama seems to get in more hours of practice per day than most of us "non-political" shleps with day jobs.....

It is to be noted that, as far as I can tell, there are only two organizations that apply this dichotomy to High Lamas..one of them has direct bearing on the subject of this thread.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Frankly, the "politics" thing is used to somehow imply that some Lamas are somehow "less spiritual" (let's say, "less concerned with the primacy of transmssion and practice of Dharma," to flesh it out a bit more) when they "engage in politics."

Conversely, to be "non-political" as a Lama implies that one is "spiritually pure" presumably because one does not involve one's Dharma with samsaric activity...at least, that is how I understand the issue.

I do suppose that if one were truly a political figure, i.e., involved in government affairs, the burden of such involvement may leave one less time for formal practice and transmission, etc. Though HH the Dalai Lama seems to get in more hours of practice per day than most of us "non-political" shleps with day jobs.....

It is to be noted that, as far as I can tell, there are only two organizations that apply this dichotomy to High Lamas..one of them has direct bearing on the subject of this thread.

So according to this theory the Dalai Lama is not a pure teacher because he have been the "king" of Tibet? Makes no sense to me at all, there been many Dharma kings in the past and there is still in places such as Buthan. And what is this complete nonsense about Karmapa becoming a Gelug? Seriously?

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

sherabpa wrote:The only meaningful ranking of lamas from the four sects is a political one. Any other ranking is a step towards dissolution of the schools into the Gelug.

I do not equate a political Karmapa with Kagyu power: the point is again that a political Karmapa goes hand in hand with the dissolution of the Kagyu in accord with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

This is scary stuff. Maybe the real reason HHDL is close to HHK is to convert him to the Gelugpa - another sneaky trick to neutralize the Kagyu. I knew there was something sinister going on the first time I saw these two Buddhist monks showing respect for each other. Someone should warn Sakya Trizin and Mindrolling Rinpoche before it's too late. Incredible and it just sounds so plausible. Who would have thought there was an active conspiracy to destroy Tibetan Buddhism master-minded by none other than HHDL himself. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Last edited by Tilopa on Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

This is scary stuff. Maybe the real reason HHDL is close to HHK is to convert him to the Gelugpa - another sneaky trick to neutralize the Kagyu. I knew there was something sinister going on the first time I saw these two Buddhist monks showing respect for each other. Someone should warn Sakya Trizin and Mindrolling Rinpoche before it's too late. Incredible and it just sounds so plausible. Who would have thought there was an active conspiracy to destroy Tibetan Buddhism master-minded by none other than HHDL himself. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Well...

Something actually DID happen, (long ago, in a galaxy far, far away....) and I do not want to belabor the issue. Suffice it to say, from what I understand, it was never the Dalai Lama's intent to consolidate all the lineages.....but there were others, in positions of relative power, who may have been attempting to engineer such a thing.

A little digging on the net should be able to reveal particulars, but I don't feel the need to trot out the whole thing here.....

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Not necessarily. The article says the Indian Government has recognized HHK as a religious leader not the undisputed head of the Karma Kagyu tradition.

Well, actually the article states:

Asia Times Online wrote:New Delhi's decision to recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa - the second-highest Tibetan monk after the Dalai Lama - is a major policy shift. Indian authorities had not trusted Trinley Dorje since his dramatic escape from Tibet to India in 2000, as he is the first reincarnation of a high lama officially accepted by the communist government of China.

Asia Times Online wrote:New Delhi's decision to recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa - the second-highest Tibetan monk after the Dalai Lama - is a major policy shift. Indian authorities had not trusted Trinley Dorje since his dramatic escape from Tibet to India in 2000, as he is the first reincarnation of a high lama officially accepted by the communist government of China.

Being completely apart from all this, I think the whole situation is sad. The Karmapa's issue, the politics involved, the money, etc. To someone outside the Dharma, reading about these subjects only leads Dharma into disrepute. Maybe ill informed disrepute, but nothing good comes out of these situations. But shit happens. I mean, there's people, there're monasteries, there're refugees... it's impossible that money doesn't enter the picture. Nothing get's accomplished without money these days. People just need to be very careful when dealing with it. Either one adapts or one will have problems when dealing with large sums. That's simply the way it is. If one wants to deal with money informally, better not having large sums. Better living in a small house or in a cave, like Chatral Rinpoche. When having loads of money, better to be really rigorous with book keeping. Modern times demand such careful approach. Otherwise, problems are bound to occur. I hope a lesson was learned, not only by the involved, but generally.

The problem is that these are old news, rather than new. In Tibet there were always similar cases in different schools.Power struggles, political influence, doctrinal hegemony... I hoped these things had been left in old Tibet. With the Chinese occupation I hopped a new awareness of the frailty of our human projects would arise and old bad habits were lost or profoundly changed; and with the diaspora I wished that we could have had some sort of "Tibetan Buddhism renaissance" that flushed away all the petty quarrels that were so frequent in "Institutionalized Dharma". Alas, I'm a naive fool. It only happened in a small scale.Maybe that's why I'm so prone to look for lamas without attachment to offices, possessions, thrones, thus avoiding "Dharmic superstars" who wanting it or not are bound to find themselves immersed in unpleasant situations. We better take care of our view if we have such Lamas. Their life is bound to have problems and this means we need to be even better practitioners. I think it is easier to have a Lama with little institutional relevance.

I hope I'm not offending anyone with my posting. I really have no opinion about any of the Karmapa's, only sadness about the whole situation. It doesn't help the Tibetan cause at all. Best is if it never had happened, but welcome to samsara. This is a real circus!