Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

TFA:"Missing from the courtroom drama will be Vix and his fellow atheists, who are not parties to the case."

StrangeQ:It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Being a dick is being a dick, even if you happen to sympathize with their non-beliefs.

Happy Hours:StrangeQ: Happy Hours: They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Not if that's what you really believed, but do you think these people really believed in Poseidon? If you did it just because you hate smokers then yes, it would be trollish.

What if I believe that superstitious nonsense does nothing for the betterment of mankind and has in fact led in several instances to the stagnation and loss of social and scientific advancement?

StrangeQ:Is there something in the Bible that prevented the Christians from doing the same?

Nope. The religious people got trolled super hard. Still doesn't make what Vix did any less dickish.

/actually, there IS something in the Bible, which is why I'm surprised why the Christians didn't think of it sooner//like I said, Jesus had a LOT to say about the religious establishment of the time///Christians would probably be the ones to crucify him today :P

cassanovascotian:StrangeQ: It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday..

yeah, because they can't put up their displays on their own property or anything. . .

cassanovascotian:StrangeQ: It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Being a dick is being a dick, even if you happen to sympathize with their non-beliefs.

Anger is an anchor to the material plane, and an impenetrable barrier to enlightenment.

No Water, No Moon

When the nun Chiyono studied Zen under Bukko of Engaku she was unable to attain the fruits of meditation for a long time.

At last one moonlit night she was carrying water in an old pail bound with bamboo. The bamboo broke and the bottom fell out of the pail, and at that moment Chiyono was set free!

In commemoration, she wrote a poem:

In this way and that I tried to save the old pailSince the bamboo strip was weakening and aboutto breakUntil at last the bottom fell out.No more water in the pail!No more moon in the water!

cassanovascotian:The difference is that, unlike you, they have a holiday they want to celebrate by putting up some decorations and making something pretty to look at.

Then celebrate the original secular intent. Put up wreaths. Put up garland. Adorn evergreen boughs with ornaments in a celebration of the turning of the season and the return of spring. Because that is what it was and that is what is happening.

Ihaveanevilparrot:jso2897: Maybe. I am deeply suspicious of "false flag" explanations - their track record of turning out to be true is very poor. I'm not saying it never happens, but the vast majority of the time it is just deflection.

The track record isn't that poor. Like the recent case where the Lesbian cut herself up to try and make everyone think she was attacked by vicious homophobes.There are MANY cases of such things.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, just that there's no proof that the Christians did it either, from what I can see, so it's just as ludacris to go blaming them.

IMO, most likely it was just regular old vandalism with no agenda at all. It's a major city and kids fark shiat up. Even fairly non-religious kids may have issues in the back of their mind with vandalising Jesus, so the atheist displays were a better target. Doesn't mean some kind of Christian anti-atheist agenda is automatically to blame.

Without proof, it's just a way for both sides to point fingers at each other, no matter who did it.

So pretty much the only time in the long history of this tradition that vandalism became a big problem, just happens to coincide with Christian poutrage over having to share space with atheists, but to you that spells "random vandalism".

cassanovascotian:It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

Couldn't they just limit the exhibits to actual nativity scenes? Sure, there's freedom of speech, but if they were doing a gardening exhibit they'd probably be within their rights to prohibit anything by actual plants - or just tulips. No big chance of someone putting a Bolivian pan flute band in one of the lots.

Or were these general booths that just happened to be used for nativity scenes for 60 years?

StrangeQ:Happy Hours: StrangeQ: Happy Hours: They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Not if that's what you really believed, but do you think these people really believed in Poseidon? If you did it just because you hate smokers then yes, it would be trollish.

What if I believe that superstitious nonsense does nothing for the betterment of mankind and has in fact led in several instances to the stagnation and loss of social and scientific advancement?

Yes, religion has had it's moments where evil was all over. But, without religion, culturally we would not be where we are. The great masterpieces of art in our past have a religious background. From the sphinx in Egypt to the statutes of Buhda (can't spell, sorry) in Asia, to the Stonehenge in England to the Sistine chapel, to the great mosques of Saudi Arabia to the Native American burial grounds, religion is what has been the biggest guide for us in our history.

To cast off with such ease and disrespect our past sickens me. I am an agnostic, but even I show respect for others beliefs

Uncle Tractor:cassanovascotian: It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

It's also a typical excuse of wiife-beaters - "The biatch MADE me do it! She PROVOKED me!"

jso2897:That which looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck rarely turns out to be a penguin.

But the fact is nothing looks like anything here. Doesn't seem anyone knows who did it, and I'd say more kids vandalize shiat just to vandalize it out of boredom than people vandalizing stuff due to intolerance.To me then, the duck would just be random vandalizing.But like I said, everyone has a different idea of who would be the likely culprit, so the finger is just going to get pointed at whoever they dislike most.

And to add to my last post, the Christian displays in public areas weren't an issue 60 years ago because it was largely a Christian nation, with some Jews, and very few other religions mixed in. Plus those groups were mostly segregated to different localities.Now, Christians are still a majority but becoming a smaller group, and other beliefs are becoming a much larger percentage of the population, not to mention everyone (regarding religious belief anyway) is more evenly dispersed due to having less family ties and staying in one area. So displaying religious items in any public area is going to cause someone to get their feelings hurt.

cassanovascotian:StrangeQ: It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Really? So they can't enjoy the holiday unless they get to monopolize a swath of city property in order to proselytize their superstition to as many people willing and unwilling as possible?

jso2897:I see where you are coming from - but tha fact is that atheists were not necessary to bring this outcome about. Had people of other, unpopular faiths ( such as Wicca, Islam, Scientology) exercised their "right" to put up displays, the same thing would have happened. using public space fro the expression of private religious views never works out, except in places where there is one official, goverment maddated faith."Militant Atheists" make a handy scapegoat, but here, people of faith are essentially blaming them for their own mischief.

I would have no problem with less popular faiths putting up displays or demonstrating in public. Sure, some people might have a problem with it,but they are wrong. If I wanted to start a protest movement against yellow cars where could I demonstrate? On my own property I guess - as long as my HOA didn't get in my face. So what if I moved it to a public park? If the local government didn't stop me would that be an endorsement of my stance against yellow cars? I wouldn't actually expect to be able to protest such a thing on private property owned by others - unless they shared my hatred of yellow cars, but how am I supposed to convince people that yellow cars are evil unless I have a public forum to protest against them?

cman:StrangeQ: Happy Hours: StrangeQ: Happy Hours: They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Not if that's what you really believed, but do you think these people really believed in Poseidon? If you did it just because you hate smokers then yes, it would be trollish.

What if I believe that superstitious nonsense does nothing for the betterment of mankind and has in fact led in several instances to the stagnation and loss of social and scientific advancement?

Yes, religion has had it's moments where evil was all over. But, without religion, culturally we would not be where we are. The great masterpieces of art in our past have a religious background. From the sphinx in Egypt to the statutes of Buhda (can't spell, sorry) in Asia, to the Stonehenge in England to the Sistine chapel, to the great mosques of Saudi Arabia to the Native American burial grounds, religion is what has been the biggest guide for us in our history.

To cast off with such ease and disrespect our past sickens me. I am an agnostic, but even I show respect for others beliefs

However one feels about religion, it is foolish to pretend that it is not deeply entertwined in human culture. At some point in the future, it may not be - but we don't live in the future. And in a inter-human dealings, mutual respect is usually the way to go. Of course, people of faith could also use to improve their track record in that regard. Everybody could.

xanadian:The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

StrangeQ:cassanovascotian: The difference is that, unlike you, they have a holiday they want to celebrate by putting up some decorations and making something pretty to look at.

Then celebrate the original secular intent. Put up wreaths. Put up garland. Adorn evergreen boughs with ornaments in a celebration of the turning of the season and the return of spring. Because that is what it was and that is what is happening.

Even more fun is how the original original intent of Christmas was the pagan holiday known as Yuletide. It's just that, once again, a bunch of old white guys got their hands on it and tied Jesus's birth to it to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans.

Uncle Tractor:cassanovascotian: It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

And, to be frank, I would've probably lol'd hard at the Pastafarian display.

Uncle Tractor:cassanovascotian: It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

Look, they were just asking to be vandalized, ok? They should have known better than to put up signs on that street.

cman:Yes, religion has had it's moments where evil was all over. But, without religion, culturally we would not be where we are.

We would have been exactly were we are now -- minus some of the wars and genocides. No Holocaust, none of the ME BS, and the WTC would still be standing.

The great masterpieces of art in our past have a religious background. From the sphinx in Egypt to the statutes of Buhda (can't spell, sorry) in Asia, to the Stonehenge in England to the Sistine chapel, to the great mosques of Saudi Arabia to the Native American burial grounds,

Instead, we would have had great masterpieces from a secular background. People with wealth and power like showing off. For the most part of our history, that means clergy or people who pander to them.

Ihaveanevilparrot:jso2897: That which looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck rarely turns out to be a penguin.

But the fact is nothing looks like anything here. Doesn't seem anyone knows who did it, and I'd say more kids vandalize shiat just to vandalize it out of boredom than people vandalizing stuff due to intolerance.To me then, the duck would just be random vandalizing.But like I said, everyone has a different idea of who would be the likely culprit, so the finger is just going to get pointed at whoever they dislike most.

And to add to my last post, the Christian displays in public areas weren't an issue 60 years ago because it was largely a Christian nation, with some Jews, and very few other religions mixed in. Plus those groups were mostly segregated to different localities.Now, Christians are still a majority but becoming a smaller group, and other beliefs are becoming a much larger percentage of the population, not to mention everyone (regarding religious belief anyway) is more evenly dispersed due to having less family ties and staying in one area. So displaying religious items in any public area is going to cause someone to get their feelings hurt.

That's the problem as I see it. people can't play nice. No matter how benevolent the intentions of the collective in question, there will always be some individual or individuals who are unable to respect the rules of civil discourse.

cassanovascotian:It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

If your enjoyment of the holiday is contingent upon a nativity scene on public property, and I am pretty sure I speak for atheists, muslims, christians, jews, etc here, you are doing it wrong!

Seems like maybe the city was getting sick of this anyway since they were funding the lottery process. so, reinstitute the lottery, and if you win a booth, you owe the city $100 to set up a display (to cover administrative fees, clean up after, etc.). Only the people who really care about setting up a booth pony up the $100 ea. Failure to pay gives your booth to the next person on the waiting list. Failure to actually set up something in your booth excludes you from future lotteries.

DerAppie:xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

xanadian:A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

What did those atheists do besides set up displays?

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

IMO trying to educate certain kinds of christian is no better than trolling them, and from what I can tell, they were trolled HARD.

xanadian:DerAppie: xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

xanadian:DerAppie: xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

Thing is - the expresion of belief where permitted is "perfectly fine" even if the objective IS trolling. There is nothing in the 1st amendment about "except for trolling". You can't have freedom of expression in a public place for some, but not for others.

Uncle Tractor:xanadian: A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

What did those atheists do besides set up displays?

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

IMO trying to educate certain kinds of christian is no better than trolling them, and from what I can tell, they were trolled HARD.

I have to admit, even if Vix had done an elaborate display on the origins of Christmas, I think the end result would've been the same.

*sigh*

Again, still doesn't make what he DID do any less dickish. He could've been the bigger man. But, he decided to stoop to their level.

cman:Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

Named after Roman gods, I believe...No, wait, Norse gods. I think (for example) Friday was based off of "Freyr's Day" or something.

cman:And people wonder why we Americans are so divided. We are more content with pissing in everyone's coffee instead of live and let live

It's the sports mentality of winning being more important that what you've won, or what moral integrity, common decency, or display of common sense you had to sacrifice to win. As long as "my side" won it doesn't matter if it means we win a trip off some cliff. So long as my side won.

xanadian:Uncle Tractor: xanadian: A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

What did those atheists do besides set up displays?

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

IMO trying to educate certain kinds of christian is no better than trolling them, and from what I can tell, they were trolled HARD.

I have to admit, even if Vix had done an elaborate display on the origins of Christmas, I think the end result would've been the same.

*sigh*

Again, still doesn't make what he DID do any less dickish. He could've been the bigger man. But, he decided to stoop to their level.

cman: Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

Named after Roman gods, I believe...No, wait, Norse gods. I think (for example) Friday was based off of "Freyr's Day" or something.

Crazy.

Every day except Saturday was named after a Germanic heathen god or goddess. Saturday was named after Saturn, a Roman god

cassanovascotian:The atheists' "display" wasn't exactly a display of something meaningful and valuable that they wanted to showcase about a seasonal holiday they celebrate; it was a Big ol' "Fark you" to the christians -the equivalent of a big farking middle finger sticking up in the air, so don't go all martyr on this by saying that your beliefs were attacked when someone "vandalized" said display.

mhd:Couldn't they just limit the exhibits to actual nativity scenes? Sure, there's freedom of speech, but if they were doing a gardening exhibit they'd probably be within their rights to prohibit anything by actual plants - or just tulips. No big chance of someone putting a Bolivian pan flute band in one of the lots.

Or were these general booths that just happened to be used for nativity scenes for 60 years?

jso2897:Thing is - the expresion of belief where permitted is "perfectly fine" even if the objective IS trolling. There is nothing in the 1st amendment about "except for trolling". You can't have freedom of expression in a public place for some, but not for others.

Oh, yeah, legally, trolling is "perfectly fine." I'm talking about from the "don't be a dick" standpoint. And, like I mentioned earlier, my initial reaction to something like the Pastafarian display would've garnered a few laughs from me. But then I'd think better of it later.

PreMortem:"...something like our savior had to hunt for a place to be born because the world was not interested."

Wat

No, it's rat cheer inda babble. jebus werent berned yet but he hadda find a place to be berned. So he got mary and joseph to ride round all night lookin fer the motel 8. they left the lat on fer im. Den they all got squoze in the bern with da critters and a couple of black guys, but de black guys brought stuff, so they were cool. And Round John* was there, too.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

The religious arguments are cute and all, but the actual lesson to be learned here is that people's tastes and moods change over time, both as individuals and as a society. The change doesn't necessarily invalidate either condition,old or new.

cman:xanadian: Uncle Tractor: xanadian: A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

What did those atheists do besides set up displays?

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

IMO trying to educate certain kinds of christian is no better than trolling them, and from what I can tell, they were trolled HARD.

I have to admit, even if Vix had done an elaborate display on the origins of Christmas, I think the end result would've been the same.

*sigh*

Again, still doesn't make what he DID do any less dickish. He could've been the bigger man. But, he decided to stoop to their level.

cman: Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

Named after Roman gods, I believe...No, wait, Norse gods. I think (for example) Friday was based off of "Freyr's Day" or something.

Crazy.

Every day except Saturday was named after a Germanic heathen god or goddess. Saturday was named after Saturn, a Roman god