I was watching my local news last night and an ad popped on with a woman who was a breast cancer survivor. She was saying that if we have national health care she wouldn't have gotten the care she needed to be able to survive breast cancer. Obviously bullshit, are all cancer doctors just going to disappear?

Then they quoted some statistic to say "The United Kingdom has national healthcare and their breast cancer survival rate is less than the United States." I was only able to find one pdf that had mortality rates of breast cancer, and it was from 1999. ( http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/reprint/49/3/138.pdf ) but the mortality rate for the UK is 25.1. USA is 20.7 and canada is 20.9. This ad failed to mention the countries with MUCH lower rates who probably also have national health care: Sweden: 17.3, Russia 16.1, Japan: 7.1.

Just another case of making statistics say whatever you want.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:20 am

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DEATHBOOK!!!

Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:33 am

Mac Lethalthe one with the back hair

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 1920
Location: kc

I'd be interested in the rate of people who come to the USA from Canada to have surgery/medical procedures performed on them.

I'm not making some big stance, because this is a very confusing issue for me, but I am fairly certain a lot of Canadians come to America to receive care for more intense health issues.

I also don't think it's fair to just disregard it as "bullshit." This is one issue where being extremely left or right is only going to complicate and hinder progress.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:38 pm

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

Mac Lethal 2007 wrote: I'd be interested in the rate of people who come to the USA from Canada to have surgery/medical procedures performed on them.

I'm not making some big stance, because this is a very confusing issue for me, but I am fairly certain a lot of Canadians come to America to receive care for more intense health issues.

I also don't think it's fair to just disregard it as "bullshit." This is one issue where being extremely left or right is only going to complicate and hinder progress.

Hey Blue Dog Lethal, the "compromise" being sold right now is mandatory health care with no public option, which is worse than what we have now.

The Democrats need to take their mandate (about twice as many people voted for the Democrats in the Senate as Republicans) and shove a progressive plan through Congress.

Frankly I'm tired of this "let's make a bipartisan bill" BS I'm hearing from Congress. You think the Republicans gave a fuck about bipartisanship when they had the majority? Hell no. The rammed through all sorts of bullshit legislation. We now need to fix what they broke. Letting the minority party control something as important as healthcare just shows that Democrats are fucking weak-kneed. Step it up and shove this motherfucker through.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:54 pm

corporateslave

Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 1110
Location: Lawrence, KS

What really puzzles me about the whole debate from the right is that they make it sound as if private healthcare and health insurance will be eliminated, when as I understand it there will only be a public option. Private entities will still be around, but they will be forced to change how they operate (i.e. stop gouging the shit out of people) because they won't have such a monopoly. The only people who should be really unhappy about this are ceo's and stockholders of private insurance companies. Most of the people who are "outraged" at these town hall meetings probably don't realize that they can stick with the same medical system they already have, and they would benefit from the public option because private insurers would have to act competitively to attract customers.

And on a side note: Death panels? What the fuck do they think insurance companies are doing now? Accepting every claim they get? Shit, the more claims they reject the more money they make. It's in their interest to deny care. A non-profit would be more likely to approve care than a private company.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:55 pm

Mac Lethalthe one with the back hair

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 1920
Location: kc

the mean wrote:

Mac Lethal 2007 wrote: I'd be interested in the rate of people who come to the USA from Canada to have surgery/medical procedures performed on them.

I'm not making some big stance, because this is a very confusing issue for me, but I am fairly certain a lot of Canadians come to America to receive care for more intense health issues.

I also don't think it's fair to just disregard it as "bullshit." This is one issue where being extremely left or right is only going to complicate and hinder progress.

Hey Blue Dog Lethal, the "compromise" being sold right now is mandatory health care with no public option, which is worse than what we have now.

The Democrats need to take their mandate (about twice as many people voted for the Democrats in the Senate as Republicans) and shove a progressive plan through Congress.

Frankly I'm tired of this "let's make a bipartisan bill" BS I'm hearing from Congress. You think the Republicans gave a fuck about bipartisanship when they had the majority? Hell no. The rammed through all sorts of bullshit legislation. We now need to fix what they broke. Letting the minority party control something as important as healthcare just shows that Democrats are fucking weak-kneed. Step it up and shove this motherfucker through.

Wasn't really my point, but right on.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:22 pm

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

I was responding to your last sentence mostly, but maybe you meant something else.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:28 pm

Disharmony

Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 3034
Location: Buried in Minnesota dirt.

I'm not big into the politics of health care, but from what I understand that if a reform does happen private practices will still be in business.....thus still be around to provide care to those individuals who still desire it.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:01 pm

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

The argument from the Republicans (representing the interests of private health care) is that if there is a public option, then it will be so much better/cheaper than private insurance that everyone will leave, go to the government plan and put the private insurers out of business.

Of course they are also arguing that government sux and can't run anything correctly.

Any logical person would see these two things as conflicting. But any logical person would also not accuse a black man and a gay Jew of being Nazis.

I want more hitting back ala Barney Frank and less wishywashy crap bullshit ala Max Baucus

Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:18 pm

Stumbleweed

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver

No shit. These dickbag spineless bastards are driving me crazy. Push through a public option AT THE WORST... we should be deciding between that and a single-payer system and not even considering this hamstrung private interest-crafted mandatory coverage garbage that's being floated as compromise right now. Fuck the Republicans and Blue Dog fuckfaces, they can get the Senate back and reverse the shit next year if they have the balls (and they do), but for right now, I don't see why anyone is compromising anything. Makes me sick.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:31 pm

xxdr. mad69xx

Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 382
Location: Salt Lake City

Mac Lethal 2007 wrote:

the mean wrote:

Mac Lethal 2007 wrote: I'd be interested in the rate of people who come to the USA from Canada to have surgery/medical procedures performed on them.

I'm not making some big stance, because this is a very confusing issue for me, but I am fairly certain a lot of Canadians come to America to receive care for more intense health issues.

I also don't think it's fair to just disregard it as "bullshit." This is one issue where being extremely left or right is only going to complicate and hinder progress.

Hey Blue Dog Lethal, the "compromise" being sold right now is mandatory health care with no public option, which is worse than what we have now.

The Democrats need to take their mandate (about twice as many people voted for the Democrats in the Senate as Republicans) and shove a progressive plan through Congress.

Frankly I'm tired of this "let's make a bipartisan bill" BS I'm hearing from Congress. You think the Republicans gave a fuck about bipartisanship when they had the majority? Hell no. The rammed through all sorts of bullshit legislation. We now need to fix what they broke. Letting the minority party control something as important as healthcare just shows that Democrats are fucking weak-kneed. Step it up and shove this motherfucker through.

Wasn't really my point, but right on.

He's been watching Bill Maher for the last couple of weeks.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:37 pm

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

I don't have HBO, and haven't seen Maher since Politically Incorrect (except maybe during a free-HBO weekend a couple years ago.) If he is saying the same thing as me, he's right on, though.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:40 pm

Eric B

Joined: 30 May 2005
Posts: 1327
Location: Omaha, Ne

They have to do something about the outrageous costs. My wife had to get a cat scan of just her head, $3000. Can anyone tell me how sticking your head in a machine for 30 seconds should cost 3 grand! I realize these machines cost probably 100,000 initially. But I would think they last a long time.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:47 pm

Smurf Stomper

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 755
Location: Zoo Town

Eric B wrote: They have to do something about the outrageous costs. My wife had to get a cat scan of just her head, $3000. Can anyone tell me how sticking your head in a machine for 30 seconds should cost 3 grand! I realize these machines cost probably 100,000 initially. But I would think they last a long time.

Wow, does she have insurance? I do and I'm afraid to go and get anything looked at. My wife had to go to the emergency room last year when she rolled her ankle really bad. A nurse took her to get x-rays, a doctor came in for all of five minutes to tell her it wasn't broken, she got a piece of paper telling her how to care for a severe sprain and was sent on her way. We got a $300 bill from the radiology department, followed by a $600 bill from the actual emergency room. This was all after our insurance had kicked in as well.

I know going to the emergency room costs a lot more than a regular doctor but damn...They didn't even give her any pain medication.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:52 pm

Stumbleweed

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver

It's completely fucked, which is why it's so infurating that the god damn spin machine has managed to turn whether we want to change the system or not into an issue. Clearly it's a broken system and the evidence is piled up in our fucking cemeteries and our mountains of collective medical debt. It's ridiculous that people fell for this shit again... it's the early 90's all over again without the prosperity.

Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:55 pm

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