The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)

"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)

The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind's common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I'm referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

Take the proposition, "Brown-eyed Scandinavians should not use cheese graters, except on Thursdays."

I'll bet you anything you can find two people who would be able to debate that proposition using nothing but Bible verses.

In other words, who cares what you think the Bible says, about hellfire or anything else? The only questions are, are you a kind person, and are you a rational person? I've certainly formed an opinion about the latter . . .

Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Job 19:25 -"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!"

"Thus the essence of post-death existence is the restoration of both body and soul." (K. Riddlebargar)

When God returns, all are brought forth, bodily. Obviously not in the bodies we exist in now, but our new spiritual bodies.

These 2 scriptures should suffice to stop the annihilationalist theology in its tracks.

Revelation 20:10-15

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades are referred to here separately - and they are both cast into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 -41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Just to clarify, that the devil and the unsaved will be cast into the 'eternal fire', which is mentioned in the Rev. passage, as a place of eternal TORMENT forever and ever.

Torment, not annihilation.

what say you?

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.

These 2 scriptures should suffice to stop the annihilationalist theology in its tracks.

Revelation 20:10-15

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades are referred to here separately - and they are both cast into the lake of fire.

ALTER2EGO -to- PARADOX_7:You're ignoring the context: the surrounding verses and chapters that give meaning to individual verses. By ignoring the context, you are selecting verses of scriptures that merely appear to mean what you want them to mean--because of your preconceived ideas about literal hellfire.

Not only have you ignored the context for Revelation 20:10-15, you are also ignoring the fact that the book of Revelation is written mostly in symbolic language—meaning most of it is not literal. Certain words and descriptions are symbolic of other things.

You do realize what a symbol is; don't you? For instance, the Yield sign is symbolized by a triangle. The minute a car driver comes across a Dark Yellow Triangle, the driver knows to slow down and stop if necessary for other traffic. In fact, the very first verse in the first chapter of Revelation comes right out and declares that the book relies on symbolic language.

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)

Keep that in mind. And if you are willing to be corrected by the scriptures, I will explain Revelation 20:10-15 to you by directing you to verses of scriptures--in the very same book of Revelation--that provide the context.

Remind yourself of the behavior of the atheists you've run into online and how they continue to fight against evidence--simply because they want to win debates. I hope you're better than that.

Be sure and respond to the eight questions at the end of my opening post, as the answers will be helpful to you. Use only the scriptures that are in my opening post when you give your answers. You can write me a private message if you wish to discuss this matter privately.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

Matt 25:41 -41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Just to clarify, that the devil and the unsaved will be cast into the 'eternal fire', which is mentioned in the Rev. passage, as a place of eternal TORMENT forever and ever.

Torment, not annihilation.

what say you?

ALTER2EGO -to- PARADOX_7:

You did the same thing here. You ignored the context: the surrounding verses and chapters. Matthew 25:41 is the end of a parable/an illustration that Jesus gave. I will prove this to you by working my way from Matthew 25:1 all the way to Matthew 25:41. But before I do that, I want you to keep in mind what the Bible said concerning Jesus' method of teaching. The Bible says Jesus ALWAYS taught by means of illustrations. Notice this point in the scripture quoted directly below, and keep your eyes on the words in bold print.

"{33} Another illustration he [Jesus] spoke to them: 'The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.' {34} All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;"(Matthew 13:33-34)

At Mathew 25:1-12, Jesus spends the entire 12 verses giving an illustration in which he compares the kingdom of the heavens to ten virgins.

I will quote the beginning of the illustration for the benefit of others reading this post. To read the entire illustration, you'll have to read all the way through to verse 12.

JESUS GIVES ILLUSTRATION #1:"Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom." (Matthew 25:1)

Jesus used up the first 12 verses giving this illustration, and then he issued a warning at verse 13 that we must be on the watch as we don't know when Christ will return.

Now we're up to verse 14 where Jesus now presents another illustration. At Matthew 25:14-30, Jesus compares the kingdom of the heavens to A MAN travelling abroad. I will quote verse 14 here, and you can read the rest of this second illustration in your spare time, which continues all the way through to verse 30.

JESUS GIVES ILLUSTRATION #2:"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods," (Matthew 25:14)

As soon as Jesus finished this illustration at Matthew 25:30 regarding the man who traveled abroad, guess what happens? He begins a third illustration at verse 32. This time, he uses himself in the illustration, which runs from Matthew 25:32-41, right where you stopped. In this latest illustration, Jesus is now separating the sheep from the goats.

PARADOX_7, surely you don't think Jesus was talking about literal sheep and goats? Look at what he said to the "sheep" at Matthew 25:35-36 after he placed them to his right, and I ask that you keep your eyes on the words that are in bold print:

JESUS GIVES ILLUSTRATION #3:"{35} For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; {36} naked, and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to me." (Matthew 25:35-36)

PARADOX_7, Jesus would not have been talking to literal sheep. But think about this: up until the time Jesus gave this illustration, when was he ever hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick, or in prison? Never! It was not until days later that he was arrested and crucified.

Since Jesus wasn't talking to literal sheep and he never was hungry, thirsty, naked, etc., all of this is just another illustration, including verse 41 about certain ones being cast into everlasting fire--which is part of the very same "sheep and the goats" illustration.

Since these are all part of a SERIES OF ILLUSTRATIONS, and are not literal, the everlasting fire likewise is not literal. Fire is used in the Bible to symbolize permanent destruction.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

At 3/15/2012 12:37:56 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:Just to clarify, that the devil and the unsaved will be cast into the 'eternal fire', which is mentioned in the Rev. passage, as a place of eternal TORMENT forever and ever.what say you?

Story book Revelation also contradicts itself and says -

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev. 21:4) KJV Story book

At 3/15/2012 12:37:56 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:Just to clarify, that the devil and the unsaved will be cast into the 'eternal fire', which is mentioned in the Rev. passage, as a place of eternal TORMENT forever and ever.what say you?

Story book Revelation also contradicts itself and says -

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev. 21:4) KJV Story book

i.e. NO eternal torment!

Much better luck next times!

ALTER2EGO - i PM you.

.Com-Poser

That scripture was so ridiculously out of context.

That passages was being told to the Saved. No sh*t there's no eternal torment for them.

Try a bit harder..

: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.

At 3/15/2012 12:37:56 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:Just to clarify, that the devil and the unsaved will be cast into the 'eternal fire', which is mentioned in the Rev. passage, as a place of eternal TORMENT forever and ever.what say you?

Story book Revelation also contradicts itself and says -

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev. 21:4) KJV Story book

i.e. NO eternal torment!

Much better luck next times!

ALTER2EGO -to- COMPOSER:

There are no contradictions in the Bible. The book of Revelation uses symbolic language most of the time. So many of the verses in Revelation chapter 20 are examples of symbolism, meaning it's not literal. Revelation 21:4, on the other hand, refers to those that are worthy of everlasting life and literally means they will never again have to experience death and the sadness and weeping that comes with it.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)

"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)

The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind's common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I'm referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Part and parcel with the false teaching of hellfire is another false teaching: the immortal soul dogma. According to the immortal soul teaching, when the body of an individual dies, the soul (which is said to be invisible) comes out of the dead body and goes off either to heaven or to hell.

Just as the Judeo-Christian Bible does not support the hellfire dogma, it likewise does not teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives a person's physical death. This teaching of the immortal soul is another teaching copied from pagan religions by the Roman Catholics and grafted into their perverted version of Christianity--after Jesus returned to heavenly life. (Again, pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

When the Protestants broke away from the Catholics during the Religious Reformation, which began in 16th century, they kept many of the Roman Catholic religious falsehoods. In turn, the Protestants broke up into thousands of denominations that are classified as "Christendom." It's for this reason that the various Christian denominations have similarity of beliefs, some of which are pagan (e.g. the false 3-prong trinity).http://www.britannica.com...

On a few occasions, the Bible uses the word "soul" figuratively--but it is usually with reference to someone who is dead and awaiting resurrection from the dead. At all other times, the soul is with reference to the entire person or animal as a living creature. In order to understand and accept this, one must be willing to reason on the scriptures--as opposed to blindly following what some religious leader said. Accordingly, I will present scriptural arguments for the benefit of those that are willing to reason on the scriptures, according to the numbered points below.

1. The first man, Adam, BECAME a living soul.

"And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man CAME TO BE A LIVING SOUL." (Genesis 2:7)

2. Even animals are referred to as souls.

"And as a tax for Jehovah you must take away from the men of war who went out on the expedition one SOUL out of five hundred, of HUMANKIND and of the HERD and of the ASSES and of THE FLOCK." (Numbers 31:28)

3. The person aka the soul sins and dies.

"Look! All the souls--to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son--to me they belong. The SOUL that is sinning--IT ITSELF WILL DIE." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"For the wages sin pays is DEATH, but the gift God gives is EVERLASTING LIFE by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

4. In order for someone to experience being burned in eternal hellfire, they would have to be conscious aka aware of being burned.

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for THE DEAD, they are CONSCIOUS OF NOTHING AT ALL, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:1. According to Genesis 2:7, after Jehovah blew life into Adam, was Adam GIVEN a soul, or did Adam as the entire person BECOME a living soul?

2. Since the presence of life equates to being a "living soul," would you say the absence of life equates to being a dead soul? In other words, what was Adam before God breathed life into him? Did he have an invisible soul floating around somewhere?

3. According to Numbers 31:28, even live animals are referred to as souls. Does this mean that the animals have an invisible part that comes out when they die, or does it mean the entire breathing animal is a soul?

4. According to Ezekiel 18:4, who is it that commits the sin and dies? Is it the invisible soul that does the sinning or is it the complete human being, who ends up dying because of sinning?

5. According to Romans 6:23, what is the reverse of everlasting life?

6. According Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead are not aware of anything. What does that do to the eternal torment doctrine which requires that the soul be conscious of being punished in hellfire?

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

Hell is definitely a bible teaching. You need to do some serious twisting of the verses to not think that. Let me show some bible verses which affirm hellfire. There is everlasting life which is nice (Heaven) or everlasting torment (Hell) after life on this world. This is basic Christian doctrine.

==Book of Revelation Chapter 20 Verse 15=="And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

==Book of Revelation Chapter 14 Verse 10=="The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

==Book of Daniel Chapter 12 Verses 2-3=="And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Where did you get the idea that hell is not a bible teaching?? Do you maybe believe in a different kind of Christianity because I noticed you also reject the doctrine of the trinity.

At 3/20/2012 2:58:33 PM, XDebatorX wrote:Hell is definitely a bible teaching. You need to do some serious twisting of the verses to not think that. Let me show some bible verses which affirm hellfire. There is everlasting life which is nice (Heaven) or everlasting torment (Hell) after life on this world. This is basic Christian doctrine.

==Book of Revelation Chapter 20 Verse 15=="And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

None of the scriptures you quoted are with reference to literal hellfire. Revelation is a book that is full of symbolic language--meaning that most of what is written therein is not literal. We know this, because the very first verse in the book of Revelation makes that clear, as follows.

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)

Below are synonyms found in the Bible for PERMANENT DEATH and PERMANENT DESTRUCTION:

1. In the Bible, whenever "fire" is used figuratively/symbolically, it's with reference to permanent destruction or permanent death.

2. In the Bible, the terms "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire" and "the second death," are all synonyms that refer to permanent death or permanent destruction from which there is no hope of a resurrection.

To demonstrate this, take Revelation 20:15 that you used in your above example. You ignored the context—the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that give the correct meaning to individual verses. Below is part of the context that you completely disregarded:

"And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

Now, if the lake of fire were literal, explain how literal death and literal Hades could be hurled in there? In reality, the lake of fire is symbolic for "permanent destruction" aka "the second death." In other words, those verses are telling us that there will be no more death and no more need for Hades (which is the grave of mankind). That point is driven home in the very next chapter of Revelation, which confirms as follows:

"And he [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

==Book of Revelation Chapter 14 Verse 10=="The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

If this scripture were literal, it would mean that the wicked would have to drink literal "wine of the wrath of God." It would also mean that this "wine" would be literally " poured out without mixture into the cup" of God's indignation. Not only that, it would mean that the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus Christ) would have to descend into hell to see this occurring, because that verse of scripture says the tormenting will take place in their presence. None of this is literal. The book of Revelation uses symbolic language to describe certain things and certain events that are prophetic in nature.

==Book of Daniel Chapter 12 Verses 2-3=="And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

The above scripture from Daniel 12:2-3 is with reference to the resurrection. I don't see anything there that mentions hellfire torment. Everlasting "contempt" is a far cry from everlasting "fire." Truth be told, "everlasting contempt" is with reference to everlasting death in that God has decided that the person is unfit to continue living--which is the ultimate expression of his contempt.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

I knew you would start saying things like it was not literal and taken out of context. The fact of the matter is most Christians would not believe in hell if there weren't signs of it in the bible. They believe in the trinity because there are various signs of it in the bible.

Alter2ego, you didn't address my last questions, what exactly do you believe:"Where did you get the idea that hell is not a bible teaching?? Do you maybe believe in a different kind of Christianity because I noticed you also reject the doctrine of the trinity."

At 3/20/2012 4:39:20 PM, XDebatorX wrote:I knew you would start saying things like it was not literal and taken out of context. The fact of the matter is most Christians would not believe in hell if there weren't signs of it in the bible. They believe in the trinity because there are various signs of it in the bible.

Alter2ego, you didn't address my last questions, what exactly do you believe:"Where did you get the idea that hell is not a bible teaching?? Do you maybe believe in a different kind of Christianity because I noticed you also reject the doctrine of the trinity."

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

Since you knew ahead of time what I would "start saying," why are you conversing with me at all? A mind reader like yourself should not even waste his time asking questions of those whose thoughts he can read. Meanwhile, I will wait for you to explain how literal hell and literal Hades will burn up in a literal "lake of fire" at Revelation 20:14.

"And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

I'm also waiting for you to explain what's meant by symbolic. In other words, if it's clearly stated that something you read will be presented in signs, are you telling me that you expect what you read to be literal?

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)

I'm curious to know your answer to those questions--being that I'm not a skilled mind reader.

I will wait.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

Since you knew ahead of time what I would "start saying," why are you conversing with me at all? A mind reader like yourself should not even waste his time asking questions of those whose thoughts he can read. Meanwhile, I will wait for you to explain how literal hell and literal Hades will burn up in a literal "lake of fire" at Revelation 20:14.

"And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

I'm also waiting for you to explain what's meant by symbolic. In other words, if it's clearly stated that something you read will be presented in signs, are you telling me that you expect what you read to be literal?

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)

I'm curious to know your answer to those questions--being that I'm not a skilled mind reader.

I will wait.

Hmm, you say your a Christian on your profile but you don't believe in hell or the doctrine of the trinity. I know for a fact that your not a regular christian so I searched that up. From what I've found, I'm pretty sure you follow a sect of mainstream Christianity known as Jehovah's witnesses?

Anyways, I've learned some things about your religion. Correct me if I misrepresent you please.

1.Your religion was previously called bible students but then changed to jehovah witnesses. The reason your called 'witnesses' now is because of a verse in the bible?

==Book of Isaiah Chapter 43 Verses 10-11=="Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

2. Your religion has predicted the end of the world numerous times but has failed again and again. The end of the world according to your religion was to end in: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975the current prediction for the ending of the world in your religion is 6,000 years from now

3. The term Jehovah in your religion which is fundamental is not even found in the Hebrew bible. This is pretty shocking as the Hebrew Bible is probably the most authentic bible since it was closest to the time of Jesus.

Explain all these points because if your religion has predicted the world even once and has failed, then it is not the true religion, period...

Also, I didn't want to get into a long debate about whether hell is a bible teaching or not. I thought it would be simple but your getting into semantics which I don't want to go through. I think I know your religion and can easily say it is false if the points I listed are true.

Since you knew ahead of time what I would "start saying," why are you conversing with me at all? A mind reader like yourself should not even waste his time asking questions of those whose thoughts he can read. Meanwhile, I will wait for you to explain how literal hell and literal Hades will burn up in a literal "lake of fire" at Revelation 20:14.

"And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

I'm also waiting for you to explain what's meant by symbolic. In other words, if it's clearly stated that something you read will be presented in signs, are you telling me that you expect what you read to be literal?

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and PRESENTED IT IN SIGNS through him to his slave John," (Revelation 1:1)

I'm curious to know your answer to those questions--being that I'm not a skilled mind reader.

I will wait.

Hmm, you say your a Christian on your profile but you don't believe in hell or the doctrine of the trinity. I know for a fact that your not a regular christian so I searched that up. From what I've found, I'm pretty sure you follow a sect of mainstream Christianity known as Jehovah's witnesses?

Anyways, I've learned some things about your religion. Correct me if I misrepresent you please.

1.Your religion was previously called bible students but then changed to jehovah witnesses. The reason your called 'witnesses' now is because of a verse in the bible?

==Book of Isaiah Chapter 43 Verses 10-11=="Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

2. Your religion has predicted the end of the world numerous times but has failed again and again. The end of the world according to your religion was to end in: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975the current prediction for the ending of the world in your religion is 6,000 years from now

3. The term Jehovah in your religion which is fundamental is not even found in the Hebrew bible. This is pretty shocking as the Hebrew Bible is probably the most authentic bible since it was closest to the time of Jesus.

Explain all these points because if your religion has predicted the world even once and has failed, then it is not the true religion, period...

I don't believe in Christianity at all and certainly don't know enough about Jehovah's witnesses... But to just answer your third point..

Jehovah is a transliteration of the common name used for god often written as YHVH (in hebrew). This Hebrew spelling is often transliterated as "Yahweh", but is never read as such in the Hebrew text. The pronunciation is never pronounced this way, but if one were to read the Hebrew YHVH (gods name) in its most literal form, it would be simply read (sounded out) as Yihovah, eventually to become Jehovah.

Of course no one reading the Torah (old testament) in its traditional form would ever pronounce god's name in this manner. But it is written in this form, many many times.

Its a bit more complicated, but let me just say this... On your list, #1 and #2 are the exact same thing and actually pronounced like #3... #2 is a transliteration of #1. #1 are English letters replacing Hebrew letters and if pronounced literally would be as previously mentioned, but traditionally is properly pronounced like #3.

Since #3 is the name of god, its not used unless in prayer or biblical readings to avoid using it in vain. Thus many simply use the term "hashem' or 'the name' to refer to god in Hebrew.

At 3/20/2012 2:58:33 PM, XDebatorX wrote:Hell is definitely a bible teaching. You need to do some serious twisting of the verses to not think that. Let me show some bible verses which affirm hellfire. There is everlasting life which is nice (Heaven) or everlasting torment (Hell) after life on this world. This is basic Christian doctrine.

==Book of Revelation Chapter 20 Verse 15=="And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

==Book of Revelation Chapter 14 Verse 10=="The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

==Book of Daniel Chapter 12 Verses 2-3=="And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Where did you get the idea that hell is not a bible teaching?? Do you maybe believe in a different kind of Christianity because I noticed you also reject the doctrine of the trinity.

Hell is a Biblical teaching but not the way most of Christianity makes it out to be. And that's where the problem lies. You take only the verses that work for you and you don"t wont to discuss the rest of the story. Examine the rest of the verses and see how they fit in to everlasting torment theology. And the character of GOD is marred. This kind of theology fits the character opposite of Christ, adversary!

"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I'm sorry OP, but The Bible clearly states that Hell is a place of fire where you burn for eternity.

I'm seriously proud of some Theists to be honest though, they are slowly trying to evolve from The Bible. First they believed in eternal torment, an early aged universe and earth, the origin of man from Adam and Eve, and the earth is the center of creation...Now they are leaning towards the belief that hell is not eternal torment (even The Pope tries to deny what The Bible clearly says), the scientific age of the Earth and Universe is valid, Evolution is true (but God is "guiding" the process), and we live vast huge universe where life here is barely even a measurable fraction of a speck. It's like everything is "metaphorical" to them now because even they realize how outrages some of the passages are. Soon Theists will let it all go I predict, until then...

At 3/29/2012 9:29:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

At 3/29/2012 9:29:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

At 3/29/2012 9:29:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I'm sorry OP, but The Bible clearly states that Hell is a place of fire where you burn for eternity.

I'm seriously proud of some Theists to be honest though, they are slowly trying to evolve from The Bible. First they believed in eternal torment, an early aged universe and earth, the origin of man from Adam and Eve, and the earth is the center of creation...Now they are leaning towards the belief that hell is not eternal torment (even The Pope tries to deny what The Bible clearly says), the scientific age of the Earth and Universe is valid, Evolution is true (but God is "guiding" the process), and we live vast huge universe where life here is barely even a measurable fraction of a speck. It's like everything is "metaphorical" to them now because even they realize how outrages some of the passages are. Soon Theists will let it all go I predict, until then...

**Eats pop corn, watches show**

Good try, same ones everyone who believes in a unfair judge uses. The Pope is part of the system that likes the doctrine of eternal hell fire, power hungry , controllers.

At 3/29/2012 9:29:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I'm sorry OP, but The Bible clearly states that Hell is a place of fire where you burn for eternity.

I'll debate you on that. You down?

I'm not educated enough on The Bible to engage in a full out debate, however I wouldn't mind if you provided a quick demonstration as to how hell isn't a place of eternal hell fire.

There's usually a couple of ways to go about that: show verses that either directly show or imply that doctrine is false or debate the verses that are put forward in defense of that doctrine or show how the overall theme of the bible doesn't support that doctrine.

I'm not sure which way you want me to go. One common way to go about it is to show that words translated as "forever", "everlasting" and "eternal" don't actually have that connotation in their original language. A lot of scholarly work has been done on the meaning of the greek work "aionios" and the hebrew word "olam" which are the words typically translated as "forever", "everlasting" and "eternal". Considerable doubts have been raised those words in their original language mean what they are typically translated as in english.

At 3/29/2012 9:29:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:"2 Peter 2:4-5 says: For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment.

Mark 9:46 describes hell as: Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 8:12 says: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 66:24 reads: And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Daniel 12:2 describes the duration of hell: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

Luke 12:5 says: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mark 9:47 says: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Matthew 23:33 reads: You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Revelation 19:20 talks about the fiery lake: But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I'm sorry OP, but The Bible clearly states that Hell is a place of fire where you burn for eternity.

I'm seriously proud of some Theists to be honest though, they are slowly trying to evolve from The Bible. First they believed in eternal torment, an early aged universe and earth, the origin of man from Adam and Eve, and the earth is the center of creation...Now they are leaning towards the belief that hell is not eternal torment (even The Pope tries to deny what The Bible clearly says), the scientific age of the Earth and Universe is valid, Evolution is true (but God is "guiding" the process), and we live vast huge universe where life here is barely even a measurable fraction of a speck. It's like everything is "metaphorical" to them now because even they realize how outrages some of the passages are. Soon Theists will let it all go I predict, until then...

**Eats pop corn, watches show**

ALTER2EGO -to- RATIONAL_THINKER9119:

None of the scriptures you listed are with reference to literal hellfire. Not only did you quote the verses in isolation--meaning you ignored the context within which they appear in the Bible--but you fail to realize that some of the verses you cited in your above response use SYMBOLIC (or figurative) LANGUAGE. A symbolic word is never literal. One can tell when a word is symbolic by paying attention to the context--that is, the surrounding words, verses, and chapters. It is the context that gives the correct meaning to individual verses. Without context, one can read a word and apply any meaning to it , and most often than not, the meaning is WRONG.

I will explain each one of the above scriptures to you after you answer the 8 questions at the end of my opening post. Your answers must be based on the scriptures that appear in my opening post.

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)