Anyway this whole Lich Queen thing will end with the new Warchief who will finally put her in her place.

I don't think Sylvanas is the kinda person that will just back down and stop bringing the Horde down. Everything she's done up until this point proves this. Her suicide attempt only further deepened that resolve. As I've mentioned before she's gone too far down the rabbit hole to simply be put in her place without some sort of major social reform of the Forsaken enacted by the new Warchief.

Do people honestly think Sylvanas was offended by being called a bitch? I'm sure she knows she is, and that's exactly what she was trying to be during that conversation. Personally I think if Garrosh got over his anti everything that's not an orc bias, they'd probably get along quite well. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see her aid him in some way, or at least play the fence. My prediction is that she won't align herself fully to anyone, until perhaps Thrall enters the picture. She seems to actually have some respect for him, so she'd probably choose him over Garrosh.

question: are the goblins actually getting paid? Or is garrosh simply piling up a debt he has no intention of honoring? It's been a while since i've played the low level horde quests, but i seem to remember one involving approaching the goblins building catapults near the aszhara entrance, and roughing em up a bit. I also seem to remember something in the quest text about garrosh refusing to pay them if they didn't do the job to his satisfaction. Something else to keep in mind, Gallywix is mysteriously MIA. whose to say that garrosh doesn't have him hidden somewhere and is threatening him if he doesn't issue orders to keep the goblins in line?

I'm not saying the goblins wouldn't side with garrosh, but i am saying they certainly won't if they don't expect to get paid.

as for sylvannas, I think it makes sense for her to fight against garrosh, even if it results in a weaker horde. As someone else stated earlier, a weaker horde might be more reliant on dirty tactics, such as her undead plague- or, a weaker horde may not be able to stop her from using the plague. Keep in mind, the less in the pie, the bigger the slice. And lastly, whose to say the horde will actually be weaker, come the end of this rebellion? war = death. abracadabra, all the previously hostile orcs that were Garrosh's are now Sylvannas's to control. Any other fallen horde or alliance could meet the same end. If she's smart about things, she could see a massive population swing in her favor. seems to me that sylvannas has very much to gain from a civil war backed by alliance interests.

Yup exactly.

Yeah because resurrecting the entirety of the dead is going to be fine with Azeroth right? Lol please just think about it, I can already see it, she does that and the Ebon Blade and Argent Dawn will be on her ass like she was the new Lich King.

I think this is what Sylvanas' story is leading up to anyway, along with her making a power grab somewhere down the line. Her downfall will be interesting to say the least.

Originally Posted by Paul - Thrall

The ignorance on this thread gave me cancer. At least I have insurance. Thanks, Obama!

Yeah because resurrecting the entirety of the dead is going to be fine with Azeroth right? Lol please just think about it, I can already see it, she does that and the Ebon Blade and Argent Dawn will be on her ass like she was the new Lich King. She isn't that dumb to just raise all the Horde and casually be accepted by all other races, if she does that, she basically dooms herself to eternal damnation.

Oh yeah, i'm sure she'd have it done right where everyone was watching. Seriously though. She's getting corpses from all sorts of places to add to her army, and no one has stepped in yet except Garrosh. Garrosh is the only one that has actively tried to stop her from raising more undead.

I want to remind you that the Goblins are STRONGLY Orc sided, they really have NO other place in the whole Horde, they fit NO where. Regardless if they get paid or not, their home is in Orgrimmar and Azhara, and their only friends in the Horde (and supporters) are the Orcs.

Thrall was the one who invited them to the horde, not Garrosh. IF they are loyal to any faction of orcs, it would be the ones following Thrall. But as i said, they are most likely loyal to their pocketbook, and I haven't seen anywhere in the lore that they've gotten paid. if they have, please do correct me.

Regardless if they get paid or not, I really don't see the Elves, Trolls or Tauren paying them.

You don't see the more noble, sensible faction leaders repaying a debt? Or at the very least, you'd see them work for free- be slaves- to garrosh? All goblins throughout Warcraft have been more of privateers than anything else. this one goblin cartel joined with the horde because the alliance sunk their escape ship. If they were forced to choose sides, it is more likely that they they'd simply decline and go back to being neutral, where the real money is, as opposed to sticking with garrosh.

[Portals from Orgrimmar arrive with Hellscream, Hellscream's elite, and High Warlord Cromush.
Hellscream jumps from the portal down to Sylvanas.]

Garrosh Hellscream says: This better be important, Sylvanas. You know how I detest this place and its foul stench. Why have you called for me?
Garrosh Hellscream says: And more importantly, what are those Scourge fiends doing here?

[Garrosh makes a gesture at the Val'kyr.]

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Warchief, so glad you could make it.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: With the death of the Lich King, many of the more intelligent Scourge became...unemployed. Those 'fiends,' as you so delicately put it, are called val'kyr. They are under my command now...
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: ...and they are part of the reason that I asked to see you.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Get on with it Sylvanas.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Very well, Warchief. I have solved the plight of the Forsaken!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: As a race, we Forsaken are unable to procreate.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: With the aid of the val'kyr, we are now able to take the corpses of the fallen and create new Forsaken.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Agatha, show the Warchief!

High Warlord Cromush says: ABERRATION!
Garrosh Hellscream says: What you have done here, Sylvanas... it goes against the laws of nature. Disgusting is the only word I have to describe it.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Warchief, without these new Forsaken my people would die out ... Our hold upon Gilneas and northern Lordaeron would crumble.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Have you given any thought to what this means, Sylvanas.
Garrosh Hellscream says: What difference is there between you and the Lich King now?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I serve the Horde.

[Sylvanas mockingly salutes Garrosh.]

Garrosh Hellscream says: Watch your clever mouth, bitch.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Cromush, you stay behind and make sure the Banshee Queen is well "guarded." I will be expecting a full report when next we meet.
High Warlord Cromush says: As you command, Warchief!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Remember, Sylvanas, eventually we all have to stand before our maker and face judgment. Your day may come sooner than others...

*******************

Honestly I think she was pissed at Garrosh's response, I think she genuinely believed that he would understand her "plight"...whether or not she is pissed about him calling her a bitch, by not allowing her to procreate her people he is essentially stripping her of her power, which I doubt she will stand for.

Originally Posted by Paul - Thrall

The ignorance on this thread gave me cancer. At least I have insurance. Thanks, Obama!

Remember that it was the tauren who brought the Forsaken into the Horde.

And Hamuul Runetotem's still around, so his reasoning probably hasn't faltered.

Now also consider that Garrosh despises the Forsaken so much that he doesn't want them in his city. There isn't a single undead NPC in Orgrimmar. I'm surprised he didn't slice the zeppelin to Tirisfal apart. I don't think he would ALLOW Sylvanas to fight alongside him.

Actually. There are forsaken a couple of feet next to Garrosh sharing the roof of the same building he is in. Grommash Hold. You see 2x Undead Deathguards and a Dark Cleric. Then there's also the envoys when Arathi Basin becomes Call to Arms.

I'm rather suprised that people are actually arguing that sylvanas will side with garrosh :/ Now I wont jump to the conclusion that she would leap at the opportunity to fight garrosh but its certainly in her best interests and while the other races may not be happy about having her with them shes not the issue removing garrosh is. also some people are really underestimating the rebels here after all essentially it is all of the other horde races and likely even many orcs (not the majority but likely elders and such who remember thrall's vision for the horde). Also even though they may still be outnumbered they will have backing from the alliance (remember its a raid ally will have to be there in some form) and no one is saying its going to be an easy fight THAT'S WHY ITS GOING TO BE A RAID! And if you need an actual lore reason for believing the alliance are involved remember that thrall's horde (the one voljin wants to bring back) never wanted war with the alliance because it wasnt worth it. With varian calming down this expac and voljin wanting to end the war it is likely they will set their differences aside once more to remove the tyrant that is causing all of this.

Garrosh made her continue to have Orcs watching them in Undercity (no more abominations for a while which made me very sad), called her a bitch, used her soldiers as meat shields, despises and fears the Forsaken, is very unstable mentally and emotionally, is in general a bad leader, and worst of all is a buzzkill Bob and won't let her use Plague (what the hell man!).

While Cairne and Vol'Jin might be more critical, they're also better leaders and would treat her and the Forsaken better.

While she may not like him, the Forsaken have gained much more support under Garrosh's leadership and other than the plague issue was given free reign to do what they wanted.

Why would Sylvanas join with Vol'jin and Baine. Both would likely be more critical of her actions

Simply put, Garrosh pissed her off. Twice, even. First (in the Warcraft timeline) when he used her troops as meat shields in the first push into Gilneas to keep his orcs safe, second in Silverpine when they butted heads over her use of the Val'kyr. Baine and Vol'jin might not necessarily like or even approve of what she's doing, but they've also by and large left her the hell alone (which is what she wants from the Horde in return for the nominal aid she does offer them during their operations).

The Forsaken have zero support in Garrosh's administration--the only help they're getting are from adventurers and Cromush (who was assigned more or less to kill Sylvanas as soon as she became more trouble than Garrosh felt her worth, note Garrosh's sarcastic use of the phrase 'Well-Guarded' when he gave orders for Cromush to accompany Sylvanas). Furthermore, Garrosh has continued the Kor'Kron occupation of the Undercity that Thrall began post-Wrathgate as a good-faith show to the Alliance, albeit for different reasons. Under Vol'jin and Baine, Sylvanas has the chance that they'll leave her alone to operate as usual, or at the very least she can count on them to deal with her fairly and listen to what she has to say (for better or worse).

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 04:39 PM ----------

Originally Posted by GennGreymane

when does sylv have respect for thrall? she seems to care about no 1 but her self

She was actually very respectful to Thrall in the climax of the Scourge invasion leading up to the war against the Lich King, and later during the fallout of the Wrathgate and Varimathras's coup when she met with Thrall and Jaina.

I think that she will make her decision after the Alliance has been brought into the rebellion. Right now the rebels don't have the manpower necessary to triumph over Garrosh and Slylv doesn't want to be on the short end of the stick, so she won't be quick to pick sides.
So the rebels are stuck, but here comes Varian into the picture, as he is pissed at Garrosh but he cannot just storm into Orgrimmar and kill him, so he should be open to the approach of a rebel Horde leader (my money is on Vol'jin) to join and aid the insurrection. If Garrosh dies, it's a win-win for both of them. And at this point Sylv will join the coup

Lastly, the fine print of the deal between Varian and the rebels can even state that the new warchief will end the war between the sides for good (and united happily we are ready for a new x-pac).