Re: Language intolerance

parasti wrote:

Where is that coming from?

Oh, come now. I find it hard to believe that you can't be aware that the developer status next to your name gives you a huge level of perceived authority. Let's not linger on your statement (it's disappointing enough that it's been the focus thus far).

It's not the "incident" itself so much as my assumption that nobody here would ever tell somebody to speak only English has been challenged. Since that was obviously wrong, I'm keen to share why I think that asking people to only use English would be unhealthy and why the opposite can provide greater benefit for us in the hopes that discussion, greater understanding and maybe even some sort of consensus can occur.

ed49 wrote:

Wow. I am going to go make a poll now.

Perhaps letting some discussion work itself out once we get on track might be best.

Re: Language intolerance

Oh, come now. I find it hard to believe that you can't be aware that the developer status next to your name gives you a huge level of perceived authority.

Because it doesn't. I have had it for many years. It has never given me a sense of having authority in a discussion or given me the impression that I am seen as speaking for anyone but myself. I am specifically talking about communication with new people. It is my experience that most people don't automatically assume that a random guy with a developer tag is any more important than they are or any other party in a discussion is, and they are correct to do so. But if after all these years you suddenly feel that it's a problem and my way of communication is incompatible with the duties and responsibilities of a developer, hey, I can totally do without it.

It's not the "incident" itself so much as my assumption that nobody here would ever tell somebody to speak only English has been challenged.

Re: Language intolerance

parasti wrote:

It is my experience that most people don't automatically assume that a random guy with a developer tag is any more important than they are or any other party in a discussion is, and they are correct to do so.

They are correct to do so - that's absolutely true. But when you're new to a forum those funny little tags sort of introduce the people to you in their own way and also should give you an impression of the certain role the bearers play/have in the community. And DEVELOPER is a big role - believe it or not - there's nothing beyond that status and for some people this role is really very impressive (in my experience mostly for those who don't know a thing about development)

What I found disturbing is the inconsistency we showed as a community: On one side there's an ADMINISTRATOR who already answered that request and moreover he did it in Spanish. So he kind of agreed having another language on the forum than English (by using it himself). And then a DEVELOPER joins in, making a polite request, that only English should be used.

Re: Language intolerance

dtb wrote:

DEVELOPER is a big role - believe it or not - there's nothing beyond that status and for some people this role is really very impressive

I don't see it as a role at all. The forum tag is just a token of appreciation. It wasn't even offered to me, and certainly didn't entail having to take on new responsibilities. It was just there one day, probably because somebody thought it was appropriate given my contributions.

What I found disturbing is the inconsistency we showed as a community

Why is that disturbing? We're an open source project, not a company that has to maintain a consistent image. I don't see why we should act like one. Tones preferred one approach, I preferred another. (Don't get me wrong, in some cases it is useful to coordinate, especially in very sensitive matters. But this really didn't seem like one, before it got blown out of proportion.)

Re: Language intolerance

Well, when you tell a newbie to use English only, for that newbie it is an English-only place. Newbies are often uncertain about how to behave anyway, and if they aren't confident about using the lain language of the place, even more so. And they don't know how you've got your tag

I'd recommend we don't do anything in particular about this. If somebody happens to post in a language other than English and somebody can read and answer their post, fine. If not, just tell them sorry, we don't understand you. If it's only a few short posts, we might use Google Translate yourselves as a courtesy.

Re: Language intolerance

Getting a little fighty in here. This doesn't do much good. Like most arguments on the internet, I think the two sides are talking past one another.

I agree with what I can infer of the intention of parasti's original English request. But I also agree with Cheeseness' assertion that it was not phrased welcomingly. Neither case is a serious issue, and the subsequent discussion has spiraled outside of the realm of productivity.

We are indeed a global community and as such we tolerate the use of all languages. To NeverRelate this statement: a full third of Neverball levels used to be presented in French. We have more translations than most AAA games, and this is a huge draw for many users.

However, like many global communities, we have adopted English as our de facto tongue. It is apparent to anyone who approaches us that the vast majority of all of our discussion and documentation are in English. When asking a question, especially one as broad as "How do I create levels?", it's reasonable to inquire whether an answer can be provided in one's native language, but it's unreasonable to expect it. In this case, it's appropriate to post a gentle reminder that any answer will be forthcoming in English.

Re: Language intolerance

parasti wrote:

Cheeseness wrote:

I don't agree that you have, but I don't feel a need to discuss it further here.

Shall I split it again?

Actually, I meant here on the forums. If you want to talk about it, I'd be happy to do so in a one-on-one realtime context where things can be a bit more personable and amicable (as I've been saying, I never wanted to focus on your post).

rlk wrote:

it's appropriate to post a gentle reminder that any answer will be forthcoming in English.

Seems like that sort of prompt is only warranted/of value if help can't be given.

rlk wrote:

Let's leave it at that, eh?

I'm still in favour of making a stickied welcome thread in as close to as many languages as Neverball itself offers as we can easily manage which says that people are welcome to post in their native language, but are mostly likely to get a response in English, (and maybe outline where some common answers or resources can be found - the wiki for example) This could also serve as something to point people towards in the event that we have somebody speaking a language that we can't offer help in. Did anybody have any thoughts on that? I've done this sort of thing elsewhere and it has seemed to be useful.

Re: Language intolerance

rlk wrote:

Let's leave it at that, eh? Try not to take anything personally.

Sounds good to me. And just to clear something up, I didn't randomly flip out. I am fully aware of the harshness of my reaction. It's not how I would normally react, and resulted from an accumulation of things that don't need to be brought up here.

Re: Language intolerance

It's not how I would normally react, and resulted from an accumulation of things that don't need to be brought up here.

If that's something specific to me, we should touch base and have a chat (chances are it's something I'm not aware of). If not, I hope things get better soon <3

If we did want the kind of welcome thread I was proposing, I'd be happy to make time to draft something and wrangle translations. If there's no interest in it at all, I've got plenty of other stuff to keep me busy.

Re: Language intolerance

I know I am a bit late. However, I think I should give my honest opinion about this since I am one of those who had problems with english (back then when I was new here).

I really don't think I am one of those people who have a problem in language learning. I speak six languages and I have translated Neverball into two of these (I will start a third soon, btw) and yet two years ago I was here, behind my laptop, trying to write simple sentences with the panic that some of you wouldn't have understood me.

I can see why NeverHacker wrote their post in their own language, hoping for someone who speaks it to come, instead of trying to translate it in english, fearing mistakes. Even when people are patient and kind, you will feel humiliated.

My english is getting much better and yet I am still scared that I could make mistakes. Could you imagine how someone who doesn't even know the basic grammar feels? If we create a welcome thread I will support it and I will translate it in all the languages I know.

I agree that english is the best language to communicate among people who don't know each other's native language, but when a use tries to write in their mother tongue, we should ask them to speak english via private message. Having it shown publicly can be humiliating...

Re: Language intolerance

ht-never wrote:

My english is getting much better and yet I am still scared that I could make mistakes

That's nothing to be scared of. Even those of us who speak English as a first language make mistakes - there's no need to feel like you ever have to be perfect. Being able to identify and overcome misunderstandings is a normal and important part of communication in any language, I think.

Like you say though, it's definitely daunting, especially when you're dealing with people you don't know, and anything we can do to make the community feel more accessible is going to benefit us in the long run, I think.

BTW ht-never, if you haven't received an email from me within the past week or so, shoot me your current address. mxttie and I need some information from you ^_^

Re: Language intolerance

I think the best bet is to stick with what you're familiar with and can be comfortable is representing what you want to say. Adding transations to other languages that you're not comfortable writing in is probably just going to make things crowded and confusing.