The rescued family kneeling and bowing before a portrait of Deng Jinjie.

The Rescued Family Wailed and Said “Sorry”

At about 10:45 that night, under the “escort” of over thirty people from the Louxing District Government, Dake Local Police Station, and County Government, a man and two women arrived at the Deng family home. According to Deng Jinjie’s brother-in-law Zeng Guomin who was at the scene, the man’s height was about 1.6m, about 30 years old, while the two women’s heights were each about 1.5m, and around 20 years old.

“All three of them were heavily surrounded by government people, and we family members couldn’t even get close,” according to Zeng Guomin. The three of them first came before Deng Jinjie’s parents and kowtowed, saying a single “sorry”, and then handed an envelope with an unknown amount of cash within to Deng’s mother. Then, the three of them came before the portrait of Deng Jinjie’s, and also kowtowed. The man’s face was dark, while the two women weeped bitterly.

At the time, the Deng family were still in deep sorrow, and before they could ask questions, the local government people were already pulling the man and two women to leave. Zeng Guomin rushed towards them, and asked: “Why did you leave at the time?” One of the women answered while crying: “I didn’t know.” Just as Zeng wanted to continue asking, the man and two women had already been pushed into a car by the government people, making this the only conversation between the Deng family and those rescued.

The rescued man and his child.

Local Authorities Refused to Reveal Relevant Details

It is reported that, in the evening of July 10th, Loudi City Public Relations Office director Wang Weiguang notified a TV station, asking that a reporter be sent to do an interview and that it be kept “confidential”, but without mentioning just what the interview was for. A reporter of the media speculated that it might be that “those rescued have appeared”, the beginning of this entire matter being made known to the public.

Afterwards, through various channels, this reporter made contact with the Dake Local Police Station that had the rescued family in custody. A man there who didn’t want to reveal his name told this reporter that the rescued people were a family, one of them was surnamed Liu, who had come from Shaoyang city Wugang county to work in Loudi, works in the interior renovation industry. When this reporter asked how they were found, he refused to reveal the relevant details, and only said vaguely: “No one can hide from something like this.”

It is also reported that on the morning of July 10th, the local government had sent someone to take Jiang Chengai’s sister to the rescued family’s home to “identify” them, but only a child and the child’s grandparents were at home at the time. According to her, the child’s description of what happened was basically the same as what had been reported by the media that day, and the child also told her: “it was the mister who saved me.”

Deng Jinjie’s mother in great pain and sorrow during her son’s funeral.

Actually Four People were Rescued

This reporter then got in touch with the Loudi City Public Relations Department, and they replied that they have now essentially confirmed the family of three was the people who were rescued, but refused to reveal the particulars, only indicating that “everything will be in the press release.”

At last, Louxi District Politics and Law Committee secretary Liu Jie confirmed, the rescued family was found by the police through carpet-style search and with the help of community cadres, and their identities were confirmed by the afternoon of July 10th. He told this reporter that actually four people were rescued, a family of three and the wife’s sister, and it was the couple and the sister who came to the Deng family home to grieve.

Liu Jie also told this reporter that after final confirmation, apart from Deng Jinjie and Jiang Chengai, the heroic rescuers also included Peng Weibing and Zhong Xiong. He said that these two people would also be recognized as Good Samaritans, and would be praised publicly. ■ Reported by Haung Dingdu

Construction worker Zhong Xiong, who also joined the rescue recounting what happened at the scene of the incident.

Acts of Compassion

People Throughout the Nation

Want to Show their Appreciation to the Hero

Family Members Ask [Sanxiang City News] to Send Their “Thank”

After the Loudi Rescue, many compassionate people tried to find Deng Jinjie’s family through [Sanxiang City News], all saying they wanted to “show their love to the hero”. On July 9th, a Guangdong entrepreneur rushed to Loudi overnight to mourn for Deng Jinjie, and gave Deng Jinjie’s family members an embroidered banner on behalf of “some Guangzhou citizens” and 100,000 yuan in cash. On July 10th, a woman surnamed Wang from Jiangsu got in touch with this reporter through the Sanxiang Cith News hotline 0731-84326110, prepared to come visit the hero’s family representing her company in showing expressing their condolences.

“May Sanxiang City News represent us, the Deng family, in expressing our gratitude to all the caring people nationwide! May good people always be safe!” Zeng Guomin said to this reporter.

■ Reported by Xie Nengwu

Source: Huansheng Online

Many people are still swimming in the part of the Sunshui River where so many have drowned.

Whether you are a high official, or just an employee, if you don’t have the most basic sense of repaying an debt of kindness, you should be reviled!

新浪北京静看风云淡hq:

An ugly family.

新浪广东深圳手机用户:

That family didn’t come out on their own, they had been found by the police. Then can go to hell.

新浪广东汕头手机用户:

What’s the point of saving people like this? Not the least bit of sincerity. What kind of big shot are they to have be under such heavy protection? Go to hell.

新浪湖北黄石641201:

One good man died, several pieces of garbage were saved. Wasn’t worth it!

新浪陕西西安人鬼兽:

I originally thought they left after their rescuer was brought ashore, and felt this was understandable. Turned out it was after they were rescued, when their rescuer’s was still unaccounted for and the crowd was still on the river bank waiting, they wanted to leave, saying it had nothing to do with them when they were stopped by some people. This kind of people should be cursed to death. I hope people who have nothing better to do can go spill paint on their house [vandalize] and make threatening phone calls. Only in this way can we push forward society’s development.

新浪天津笑熬浆糊:

If they’re going to meet [come pay their respects], then they should meet, why have this separating buffer in between? Is it because they don’t trust the character of the rescuer’s family? Even if the family were to express some discontent, it would be understandable and expected. This kind of meeting is only to appease public opinion. Not a shred of sincerity.

新浪陕西西安手机用户:

A “we didn’t know” and that’s it? You guys can go to hell! Did you fly out of the water by yourselves!? Shameless bastards.

新浪浙江丽水手机用户

A family with no conscience. Sigh, how do you hope to educate your child properly like this?

新浪广东深圳毕竟东流去:

Since they’ve already apologized, the media and netizens shouldn’t dig at the rescued family any more, as this would cause a great deal of psychological burden to them.

新浪广西柳州夏树: (responding to above)

The hero sacrificed his life to save them, so presumably he wouldn’t want those three heartless people being hounded to death, but I hope those three live in shame for the rest of their lives!

This is our government, this is our police, who don’t protect those who ought to be protected, and spare no effort to protect those who ought not be protected. Why? Because everything is about money and power. Why protect them? Don’t know. Why not let them face everyone’s spit and contempt head on, so as to promote a healthy environment, so that the immoral and without conscience feel the shame they deserve?

新浪上海手机用户:

Truly [an example of] good people having short lives, while bad people live for a thousand years. I seriously despise the four people who were rescued.

新浪陕西西安手机用户:

Saved a bunch of animals.

新浪陕西西安手机用户:

Simply not human, they are the ones who should be dead, them living isn’t good for society.

新浪天津手机用户:

Just a word of thanks and that’s it. Your conscience will be uneasy for the rest of your lives.

新浪广西柳州手机用户:

Pathetic! Chinese people’s virtues have all been tainted by people like them…

新浪陕西西安手机用户:

If you knew then what you know now!!!

新浪北京mgfqq700: (responding to above)

May they for the rest of their lives to be condemned by their conscience–of course, that’s if they have any.

新浪江苏无锡YEJINHAI:

Being thankful is the most basic sense of being a human, if not, how can one be human? This must makes the rescuers’ incredibly disillusioned.

新浪天津蓝山心情:

Should file a lawsuit, make them bear what they should be responsible for!

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cooter

Glad they were found.

cooter

Why is my sofa on the bottom? 讨厌!

elizabeth

Because they say somewhere that those who are first will be last and the last first…

Kidding they reversed the order maybe so that we don’t have to scroll down so much for the latest comments.

Sign of the times. We are either very busy or lazy.

patko

Whats up with this sofa stuff? Can you guys just shut the fuck up about it? Its old and im only browsing this website for 4 days.

Jeff

Not closure at all. still a disgrace. not worthy of the floor, forget the sofa.

eattot

so sad, i wanna cry…
that boy is so kind but died….fuck! his family is so poor, gov should help them.
this family guess they did it just because people insult them too much online…
poor boy….55555!

question

555 means 呜呜呜, sobbing?

Also, what’s with all the cameras in the funeral photo, can’t they kick those parasites out or does the grieving family really want the attention? Is someone getting a kickback?

alibabarouge

dont cry so much for him, he ll be rewarded.

The Enlightened One

While this was a good act…

It does beg the question if this family apologized willingly or forcefully.

They were instructed not to say much but they should have said more.

It is a meaningless apology or people just silenced by guilt trying to make amends?

linette

I am sure they came out because the authority caught them and identified them “carpet style search.” How ugly is this family. They were crying because they got caught and had to give money to the dead man’s family. This family except for the child can all go to hell. They need to pay more money and respect to the dead man family to support his old parents…like for the rest of their lives.

The Enlightened One

Well,

If they were forced to apologize at least society/government is attempting to show people that it does not tolerate such cruel people.

But in regards to the family… if they WERE forced… they are just completely worthless.

G$

The family EXCEPT for the child? Nononono, I’m going to go with the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and say take the child and his close relatives too.

Brett Hunan

Nature vs nurture… are you insinuating that the baby is inherently at fault because of the parents actions?

linette

NO G$. The child is innocent. He even said “mister saved me.”

I hope nobody mistreat the child.

Cardaver

Is it just me, or does it seem like they’re only apologizing because they were found and made to apologize?

They should have just stuck around and thanked the guy or his family in the first place, they must have known they’d be tracked down eventually, with the human-flesh-searching and all the other technology people have access to these days

洪

Do not want to like similar things happen again

Kilkenny

Actually, I would be more surprised if that family would have thanked the guy, who helped them. Its just quite too typical for chinese and you see that ignorance almost in every aspect of their lifes – whether it’s driving, standing in a line, getting on/off the public transport and so on.
Actually, I can’t say I completely dislike chinese, but I have to admit, that those people need to walk a long way to become civilized, at least like chinese from Hong Kong.

linette

“ignorance” is the correct word to describe most people in China. I would use the word ignorant instead of selfish or rude. They are ignorant and don’t know better. They need to be taught so they can understand what is considered proper/right and what is not. People are people, they all have conscience.

Kilkenny

British have been doing it for a century in Hong Kong. Now look at them and continental ones. Feel the difference?

The Enlightened One

Only as soon as I cross the border from Shenzhen to Hong Kong.

Feels completely different.

Xero

Or when you start to hear that “tick tick tick” sound by the crosswalks. That’s when you know you’re in good hands like the city is keeping an eye on you. Its like the city is saying “man dont worry, I got this, you have yourself a nice holiday” :)

Little Wolf

The thing is, linette…..they do know better. Catch one cutting in line and he’ll give you that “just fucked the dog” look. Same for everything else. They know it’s wrong but try to get away with it anyway. “Ignorance” might explain somethings. (not really sure what the right word is)

Archie

I think the right word is oblivious. They are often oblivious to all and everyone other than their immediate selves.

cc

It’s the me first culture, you don’t count, me, me, me.

American, Patrick Henry

I agree. Is this a result of a moral free education or worldview? Is this apart of communist indoctrination? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Ryo

Are they really ignorant or inconsiderate? Do they go hand in hand or are they separate? Do one really need to be “taught” to line up or yield when driving? I think most Chinese are just inconsiderate. Even if you teach them, they will just return to their old self as soon as they are out of class. Chinese will be like this for years to come.

Kilkenny

I just mentioned, that if they would have been taught by Europeans not to spit, not to speak while chewing food, to yield when driving and so on – things would have changed many years before. British were kicking the shit out of the Chinese in Hong Kong for the whole century to help them to join the civilized world. Leave your great culture to yourself, but please, stop pointing, that spitting and throwing rubbish miss the bin is a part of your “culture”. God Damn, THIS IS NOT CULTURE, and it couldn’t be considered as culture anywhere in the world.

“British were kicking the shit out of the Chinese in Hong Kong for the whole century to help them to join the civilized world.”

It’s amazing how stuff which would be considered dreadfully racist and reactionary in any other setting goes down just fine in forums of expats in China.

If Britain had colonized the whole of China until 1997, the Chinese would NOT now all be as sophisiticated and polite as Hong Kongers. You can turn one city into an international financial center, but you can’t do the same with a whole continent with a billion people. Look at India, which was profoundly colonized by the British for centuries. People there have worse hygienic standards than in China.

The only thing the Chinese would have got out of being colonized by the Europeans for longer would have been more exploitation and poverty.

Kilkenny

Racist, racist, racist. You can’t even imagine, how much I am tired of this word. What does it mean, by the way? If a person admits, that a whole nation DOES have some objective problems that doesn’t make you a racist. “Kicking the shit out of” – in case it sounds rude to you, I’ll say: “kicking the continental notion of culture out of”. Sounds better?
About the whole country – who knows. They never tried actually. Apart this CPC is responsible for the cultural revolution, during which the Chinese intellectuals were massacred. Frankly speaking, I wouldn’t say a word about this – it doesn’t concern me as long as they stay in China. But there are 100 millions of Chinese expats over the world and when they come to my country I am not going to tolerate this behaviour. When I see them peeing and shitting on public in the city center, spitting loudly, driving in the way they got used in China, I want to kill one of them, seriously. Not all of them are like that, but a vast majority is. Does it means that there is a problem with the whole nation’s behaviour? I think yes. Does mentioning this makes me a racist? No, I don’t think so. If this nation wants to be the part of the global civilization it should learn at least some basic rules of etiquette and decent behaviour.

Nanny Hiccups

Another ethnocentric rant.

I have never, in my 37 years of life, have ever seen a Chinese person in America do any of the things you describe. In fact, they act more civilized than half of the people who live here. If you dont’ like China, then why don’t you get the fuck out of their country? I find it beneath contempt to live in someone else’s country where you are taking up space, housing, and using their already limited resources and then have the gall to insult them. If I were the CPC, I would be dragging expats like you out by your hair and tossing your ass in the ocean on a block of wood.

To me, your rude behavior is uncivilized and distasteful. Again, if you don’t like China, GET OUT. If you can’t afford to get out, then you better start kissing some chinese ass. You’re on their turf. You need them, not the other way raound.

moop

“You need them, not the other way raound.”

haha,oh really? who do you think they opened their doors to? where do you think the “foreign experts” come from? who helped build the factories so they could sell their manufactured goods cheaply to the outside world? the only reason china is doing as well as it is now is because of the china-russian split. if they had stayed allied with close ties to the ussr they never would have recieved investment from the western world. we would have gone somewhere else to have people make our goods cheaply.

besides, the chiense obviously feel they need us, or they wouldnt try to attract us and keep us with salaries many times the average chinese.

Nanny Hiccups

I’m not talking about Chinese relationships with foreign powers. I’m talking Chinese relationships with the expats who live there and constantly bitch about the people that is sharing their home with them. None of you expats built shit, so yes, you do need chinese people, the ones who use your services, take your english classes, and hire you for jobs. Don’t talk shit and act like YOU are doing THEM a favor by being there. It’s bullshit at best. Now let’s see if you are man enough to admit as much. Don’t go trying to get your native country to back you up, and start counting yourselves as “we did this for china”. NO, businesses, corporations, and western governments did those things for china, not any of you.

linette

I must say the British introduced HK people to democracy and their British gov’t model. The British helped establish the HK gov’t system, and the HK people are running it efficiently. People who are living under this kind of system and society have more access to good education and so they become more “civilized”
And no Kilkenny, the HK people didn’t require anyone to kick their asses. HK people just took the knowledge given to them from the British gov’t and from there,they developed into a more commercial civilized society. HK people did it on their own with their hard work and thirst for knowledge and improvement. You don’t know that majority of HK people are workaholic?

…..speak while chewing food, to yield when driving …….
are just the result of people living in a society where majority are uneducated. So they all follow and do the same thing and don’t give much thought to it. Like how the China chinese throw garbages on the streets and subway in HK. The HK people are not use to it and are freaking out.

moop

you do realize that people work for those corporations right? the truth is we, as expats, live in this society, and we have every right to critique it. so what if i’m not a citizen of china? this is the society i live in and i’d like to see it improve. its more important to me that china’s society improve more than america’s because i live here. if i lived in america i wouldnt give a shit about chinese societal issues, or at least not nearly as much. what us expats do (besides teaching english, which highschool students have to do well in to get into a good college) is train, advise, and develope chinese industries. we also start companies that give people jobs. who do you think trains, oversees, and consults a lot of these projects over here? the advertising and marketing industry is full of expats… whats their job? oh, its to make chinese brand’s more attractive to domestic and foreign consumers. its a mutually beneficial relationship, but its more in favor of the chinese since they learn from us (western companies dont send expats to learn anything in china unless its the chinese language) and they get more taxes from our higher wages which we also use to but goods domestically.

jin

@moop

when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
youre in china of your own choice, you dont expect a entire country of 1.4 billion people to change for you expats. if you dont like china, then get out. you adapt to the country. you cant expect 1.4billion people to change just like that. it takes time. the younger generation are more educated and knows better, while the older uneducated people are still ignorant and live like how they lived when they were younger, when poverty was all over china. so what i meant with this is….. again, again and again. A COUNTRY WITH 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE CANT CHANGE IN A COUPLE YEARS.

Little Wolf

Kilkenny: It is obvious that you know alot more about China than alot of people here despite not living here full time. I fully agree with everything you have written. And you’re especially right about how being called a “racist” has completely lost it’s teeth and has all the sting as being called a “doodoo-head.” I see you making every effort to be eloquent while considering others views while “nanny hiccups” and “jin”(as if we give a shit) have been far less polite.

For some reason, I suspect that there are other innocents in that family than the 5 year-old. Perhaps the wife and sister didn’t have much choice in the matter and had to go along with the husband. But it’s just a hunch

Alan

People there have worse hygienic standards than in China.

I don’t know. Most indian restaurants I have been in are spotless, and a good deal of Indians are muslim, which probably helps with their manners in life.

Nanny Hiccups

Leave it to the Europeans to “civilize” the “natives” right?

People are living in a country where they have to survive and you are not looking at ignorance or anything else. Just an entire country of people in survival mode.

How many of you would jump in the river to save someone, or rush toward a man who had just killed two people with no weapon in your hands? Casting stones from glass houses?

Chinese people were long civilized before your Europeans and a great deal of their influence is felt in things we use in our lives and culture including the very firepower that feeds your guns. No amount of imperialism has ever helped a country, if anything, invaders are the ones who destroyed the natural progression to civilization,, from the Brits to the Japanese. Chinese have lived in defense ever since and in response, the likes of Mao was able to rise as he was the only person who was brutal and callous enough to defeat their invaders. Were it not for imperialism, who knows how strong China’s heart and conscience would beat.

xiaohouzi

Well said, Nanny! You made some very good points.

Kilkenny

Stop seeking for justifications. “Survival mode” is not a good one for sure – many people in Eastern Europe where I come from are also living in quite common financial conditions. But if you walk through the street of Warsaw or Minsk you would hardly find a cigarette butt or see someone peenig on the tree.
By the way I saved I Chinese couple in Qingdao two years ago from drowning in the sea and protected a guy being beaten by hooligans in Nanjing this year, also Chinese. That’s the answer to your question, if you wish to direct it to me.
I am not arguing on the matter that Chinese history and civilization are wery rich and influential. Still you mentioning gunpowder. I could also mention, that almost everything invented after the 18 century – watches that you wear, cars that you ride, planes that you fly, computers that you use were invented by the people of the West. But I am talking on the other issue. Even mentioning your great past and culture, chinese people lack their personal culture. I already described what I mean by saying “lack of personal culture”, so I don’t wish to repeat.
Yeah, and by the way, Mao did little thing in defeating invaders. If you would have learned history well, he came to power in 1949 and the WW2 ended in 1945 – there were Russians on the continent, who actually liberated China and Americans at the sea who defeated Japan. China under Mao could not win the war even with a tiny Vietnam.

Nanny Hiccups

First, I am not Chinese I am American and I am an observer which renders me completely objective. You seem completely racist toward the Chinese. In America, we like to tell foreigners who dont’ like America to “go back to your own country” – if you don’t like America then you are not wanted here. I feel the same applies to China. If you don’t like China then get out of it.

As I said, Mao’s rise was a direct response to China’s desire to keep foreign invaders out. They drove the ROC out, whom they felt was a weak link. Communism, was also a response to that and what they felt was best for the country. People do what they can to keep from being invaded, and that includes the creation of economic policies that limits interaction with foreign parties. Just look at North Korea. So if anything, imperialism is what started the problems in the first place. Now that China feels its place in the world is secure, they are now open to economic relationships with the foreign powers. As that economic relationship develops, so will the desire to change how they live within the country, especially if the “wealth” begins to trickle down to common man. That takes a while.

What an expat like you should have is an open mind, not a closed one. You live in someone else’s country, respect the land, the people, and the culture for what it is, not for what you want it to be.

moop

“Now that China feels its place in the world is secure, they are now open to economic relationships with the foreign powers”

nope. thats not really true. china was in the economic shitter when they turned to the US and the western world in invest in their industries. they were arrogant, closed themselves off form the world and lost the benefits of the market of ideas that come with trade even when they werent being invaded.

“First, I am not Chinese I am American and I am an observer which renders me completely objective” not seeing how never coming to this country makes you any kind of authority. your impressions of china is from this website and the news. and actually the typical chinese in the chinese diaspora is much better than the typical chinese from mainland china in terms of civility and manners. the nicest chinese people i’ve met have been in malaysia. havent been to taiwan yet, but i’ve been to the rest of the nations with large chinese diasporas and malaysia is the best. so your contact with the chinese diaspora in america is much much much different than the chinese people here. when you ask someone for directions here in the mainland its kinda like asking for directions in NYC. people either walk past you, ignore you, or tell you but they’ll act like their a little annoyed or like they’re doing you a big favor. or they’ll just point in that direction and say like 2 words and put their head back down. in malaysia, they dont tell you. they actually take you there. my wife (who is chinese) was blown away by this

linette

Just an entire country of people in survival mode….

That is also very true too. For those really poor rural people…who cares about spitting and cutting lines. They need to make money to put on the table. But for those city folks, they should know better and behave more proper.

jin

moop do you feel more superior compared to the asians? if so then you are a racist. all you say is blablabla china would be nothing without us almighty westerners. blablabla. did you forget that it was you westerners that ruined china in the first place??? china opened up to the western world in 17-18th century, and what happend? http://library.thinkquest.org/26469/history/1900.html

jin

“they were arrogant, closed themselves off form the world and lost the benefits of the market of ideas that come with trade even when they werent being invaded.”

arrogant and closed themselves off…. hmmm i wonder why……..

Nanny Hiccups

Moop, putting ones head down and moving on is a defensive posture, one just trying to get on with their day. In NY, people are so rude you m ight get cut for looking at someone on the subway. I had someone try to sell me something for dirt cheap, just so he could rob me in an alley. Does that make all New Yorkers bad? No. It’s a cool city, best in the country.

I don’t know, maybe it’s my academic background that causes me to look at things a bit differently than most. Most of which focuses on the study of people (anthropology, sociology, etc).

When people are beaten up, they don’t become weak, humble, and friendly. No. They shelter themselves, act aggressively, or hide. It’s human nature. It’s the same as poor people becoming dishonest to survive.

And yes, Chinese in America are nice people. That’s why they are a favored immigrant group in this country. Along with Africans, who are also not a bother.

moop

@jin, nice link to a student article. it was rivetting. china lost out in the marketplace of ideas when they shut themselves off from the rest of the world. it was arrogance and there were outside forces as well, but the chinese rulers were very arrogant and even the name zhongguo reflect this arrogance.

after reading this, i’m surprised george didnt send in the british to wipe you all out.

Nanny Hiccups

moop – cutting themselves off from the rest of the world allowed them to rise in power internally and militarily before they opened themselves up to the world again. Keep everyone out, get your house in order, then open the doors again.

If China did not have respect in the world, they would not be able to keep the west out of Syria – when it is Russia and China alone who defends them and has kept the western powers out with their solitary votes.

moop

“moop – cutting themselves off from the rest of the world allowed them to rise in power internally and militarily before they opened themselves up to the world again. Keep everyone out, get your house in order, then open the doors again. ”

no, thats not true. their industry was so lacking and so technologically behind they had no other alternative but to open up. they were not strong militarily at all at this time, and they had just gone through a lot of economic and social chaos which wasnt able to be addressed until after mao’s death

Kilkenny

Great comment. China has closed itself to become more powerful, forging swords and spears while the Brits where coming with rifles and machine guns later. That was the price of the Chinese arrogance.

if you read it, you will see that Britain was losing in the trade with china, and they sold opium to make money. when china ban opium and force those opium traders to surrender all their opium and burn it. Britain attacked. this was the fault of who?
this is the reason why china closed to the rest of the world. not only did Britain start the selling of opium, they started the war, attacked Chinese capitals and stole their gold and valuables like they did with India and Thailand and so many other countries. IF this didnt happen, japan wouldnt be able to attack china so easy.

and yes that’s how the emperors back then act. they think they are on top of the world, and that’s how they always write to others. and nonono the British didn’t attack china cause of this, they attacked china cause they burned the opium.

“i’m surprised george didnt send in the british to wipe you all out.”
i’m surprised you can say something like this.
don’t like china? GTFO, but i guess you’re just a poor loser in your own country.

jin

kilkenny GREAT COMMENT
“Great comment. China has closed itself to become more powerful, forging swords and spears while the Brits where coming with rifles and machine guns later. That was the price of the Chinese arrogance.”

this shows you know nothing and is a uneducated retard.
china open up to the world and this shit happend.

The second opium war occured in 1858-1860 and only involved 4 powers, UK, US, France, and Russia. Though it was mostly an Anglo-French venture, and they all hauled away loot, with the Russians gaining the most later through Treaty of Aigun, in which Qing ceded outer Manchuria to Imperial Russia.

The eight allied power invasion of China involved UK, Germany, US, France, Russia, Japan, Italy, and Austria in 1900-1901. It was mostly the result of Boxer Rebellion spinning out of control. At first, the allied powers lead by British Vice Admiral Seymour didn’t take Qing military seriously and attempted to invade Beijing with only 2,000 men, they were beaten back after 20 days of fighting during June – July, 1900 by the Wuyi Army, lead by General Nieh Shih-Ch’eng. General Nieh was killed a month later, which lead to the decline and breakup of the Wuyi army. Then in August 1900 they made a more cautious advance with 20,000 men and successfully invaded Beijing.

What followed was yet another orgy of rape and pillage, except this time the worse offenders were the Germans, who killed a lot of people. The British and the French simply went on their looting spree. Under pretext of searching for boxers, they even forced their way into the Yonghe Lamasery and carted off with anything made of gold or silver. The Japanese broke into the Ministery of revenue, looted 3 million teals of silver, then burned it to the ground.

The Qing government was forced to sign the 1901 “Boxrer Protocol” to end the war. They had to execute 10 officials, pay $333 million, destroy the Taku forts, grant more concessions, etc.

jin

what they did there, is simply barbaric.
IF THIS didnt happen, do you think that japan couldve invaded china? do you think that mao would have become a dictator? and all that shit after? you have no right to tell a entire country to change just because youre there. changed dont happen overnight, it takes years and years to change. like how it took china 100 years to get back on their feet.

““i’m surprised george didnt send in the british to wipe you all out.”
i’m surprised you can say something like this.
don’t like china? GTFO, but i guess you’re just a poor loser in your own country.”

why are you surprised? i didnt say he should have wiped you out, i was saying i’m surprised he didnt (hyperbole, you should look that word up). there should have been reprocussions for seizing and destroying britain’s exports, opium costs a lot of money to grow, ship, ect. the chinese siezed it, destroyed it, and attacked british citizens who were selling it. what did they think was going to happen? britain, the most powerful country in the world was going to write them a stern note? not treating the brits as a diplomatic equal probably nullified any chance of solving the solution peacefully anyways

moop

“IF THIS didnt happen, do you think that japan couldve invaded china? ”
yeah, i do, because japan benefitted from britain’s industry which led to them having a technologically superior military. the chinese still wouldnt have had a superior military because they didnt want to trade with “barbarians” who didnt underrstand that gunpowder is really just for pretty fireworks

jin

China didn’t want to trade opium anymore, cause it turned out, that its harmful, which is something the British DIDN’T say.
when the Britain was illegally importing opium into China and it got burned.

what do you do when a country/group of people or whatever, is smuggling something illegal into your country? and british citizens ??? they were FUCKING DRUGS DEALERS supported by the British government.
who give a fuck how much money it cost them to make opium.
when you know its not allowed and you still do it, what happens after that is nobodies fault, except your own.

jin

moop are you defending? when it was clear who’s fault it was.
haha and guess you don’t know shit either.
The first guns were invented around the year of 1132 (Song dynasty) in case you don’t know.
Handgonnes were produced in very large numbers in the Early Ming Dynasty and special military divisions called “Shen Ji Ying” consisted entirely of firearms wielding troops. The Matchlock arquebus were introduced in the mid-1550s and were commonly fielded in Southern China.http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps03_011.pdf

Kilkenny

The one who is uneducated retard is you, showing zero knowing of historical processes. I suppose, I know a little more about Opium Wars, cause it was the topic of my graduation diploma work. Opium wars were the consequences of China closing to the world, but unlike the Japanese who started to build their economy and military according to western standards, which led them winning the 1894-1895 war and succesfully fighting in China during WW2. On the other hand retarded Qing government supported boxers and authorised demolishing of infrastructure, such as railroads, that were build by foreigners. If China would have opened and started to modernize economy and military, those things wouldn’t happen.

moop

wow, guns from the 1500s. please. lets not pretend that china was militarily advanced at all leading up to the opium war. they werent, taht’s why they were defeated so easily. its not even an argument any sane person can make. and with the arrogant attitude they had they would not have learned anyhting from western techonology to develope better weapons like the japanese did. thats why they kicked your asses

moop

the chinese had been using opium recreationally since at least 1483. they knew the effects of opium and clearly they wanted it. the chinese also boarded british ships in international waters where they had no jurisdiction and siezed and destroyed opium

jin

after what Britain did to china, and after what happened,
Qing dynasty thought that everything about western is bad.

yes, China made a mistake by not going for the guns.
but that doesn’t mean anything to what Britain(and other countries) did. it was plain barbaric.

yeah but after a while, they banned opium in china, and Britain was still illegally smuggling opium into China, whats how all this mess started. so whose fault is it?

linette

@Jin. China had a brutal history of foreign invasion. Other countries all wanted a piece of China. What the other countries did to China was wrong and evil. They stole from China without any shame or any justice. So you should know what it’s like to have your rights and fortune stolen from you. Where is the justice? Like how the China gov’t is treating the poor people in their society. China gov’t needs to focus more on tackling poverty and create better living conditions for the rural people. I will have to assume you are one of the city folk like me and we both can speak fluent Chinese. People like us who are fortunate enough should help educate the less educated people in China. Let them know segregation system is not right. Spitting is not right. Cutting line is not right…peeing in public is not right…In time, the people in China will get better. They may even stand up against the gov’t.

jin

Opium smuggling and use were always illegal in China. However, China was militarily weak during the late 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s, so the British used military intimidation and eventually war to force the Chinese government to allow the sale of opium.

Chinese resistance to the British opium trade culminated with the Opium Wars of the mid 1800s. Technologically superior British naval and ground forces crushed Chinese efforts to defend their country from the British drug trade. In victory, Britain imposed harsh penalties upon China including the seizure of Hong Kong and guarantees allowing Britain to sell opium.

British opium caused tremendous suffering and millions of deaths across China during this period of imperialist and colonial domination. Britain was a global colonial master with an enormous military that China simply could not defeat.

Today Britain is a second tier country with no colonies remaining. However, Britain’s legacy of crime against humanity still haunts the globe.

linette, what did what you said got to do with this conversation?
i know that its wrong what these uneducated people does, but china is changing and you know that, the younger generation knows this and china is slowly changing. you can tell those old ignorant people all you want, but they wont change, let them die and let the younger educated generation take over.

red scarf

@Jin

I hope you do know that one time the Chinese there producing 90% of the world output of opium trade at one pont.. When the doors of trade were kicked open for opium in 1860, guess that the Chinese did, they started mass producing it themselves, while the British were the ones that lit the torch paper the Chinese went and threw gasoline on it. Chinese opium was, via Chinese merchants, making it way into into Asia specially Thailand (Siam).

yes, but that doesnt justify what the british did.
while moop was defending britain, trying to say that its chinas fault for attacking their opium.

linette

Jin,
……….. let them die and let the younger educated generation take over……..
This will never happen. China will never become a better society just because the older generation died out. The root of all the problems in China society is because of the whole gov’t system. You have a system where there is no equality among men. No freedom of speech. No freedom to vote in elections. No equal opportunity act. No equal access to healthcare or education.
Segregation law exist among rural and urban citizens. Tell me, how can a society like this advance? How can the people advance? A nation with 1.4 billions and still more than half living in rural poverty. Many still have no access to education,healthcare, decent housing. Many still died of starvation living in toxic polluted environment. This is the same nation that spend billions docking space station and billions on Korea. And millions on Olympic. Easily one of the richest nation in the world. So it’s not because China is poor. It’s because China officials the people in power and the rich who live above the law, refuse to give up their power and riches. They want half the nation to continue to stay in the bottom without any chance to advance or get good education, so that they can continue to exploit them for cheap labor. Gov’t positions can only be passed on to their own family. You will never get the chance to run as governor. The rich and the powerful make sure of that.

China society will never get better if we don’t do away with this kind of gov’t and the people that abuse their power at the top.

As a Chinese person I am telling you this, and you as a Chinese person fluent in chinese should go spread the words in the Chinese forums. Go help me wake the China Chinese up. If we are lucky we may get to see another Tiananmen Square protests.

jin

linette you have a point but, future government will BE controlled by those educated younger generation, they will most likely study in foreign country before they become government employee, what they learned in foreign country can be used by these new generation to change china.

red scarf

@Jin Yes I know, China also invaded other countries for its own goals wanting to control them (pre-Western imperialism era of Asia) however, if Chinese are going to blame Western powers for the downfall of their Empire, they must also be critical of themselves and understand that they did wrong themselves throughout time.

However, many are not and it seems they are willing to be hypocrites pushing anti-foreign radicalism.

Little Wolf

Nanny, I don’t get you at all. You claim to have wanted to visit China but changed your mind when you started to learn how things really are here and fear it will be too rough for you but you have no problem scolding us that have managed to carve a life for ourselves here that we should be yanked out of the country by our hair because we make some criticisms about our adopted home and want/expect it to better. You need to figure out that mainland Chinese are NOTHING like the Chinese you’ve observed in America. Until you have the spunk to actually come live here, you should find a different niche on this site than just criticizing the foreigners that have walked the walk instead of talking the talk. Until then, it’s hard to take you very seriously.

1)
This idea that China is responsible for its own problems because it closed itself off from the world is an old chestnut. It doesn’t take into account that when China was powerful, it was not closed off at all. Do you know how many different races and religions were to be found in Xian, when it was China’s capital? China closed itself off as a reaction to new very powerful and very meddling European foreigners appearing. Japan reacted the same way, and you are wrong, while Japan was closed off it did not develop at all. When the Americans forced Japan open in the nineteenth century, it had fallen far behind in every respect.

2)Chinese expats do not usually behave the way you say in other countries. Although within China hygienic standards are pretty revolting, Chinese abroad actually don’t normally spit in the streets or let their children pee in public. They are famous for being quiet, inobtrusive, clannish and not learning the language, but they are not famous for being dirty. This is because the ones who go abroad often belong to the more educated classes, and even if they don’t they quickly learn that in their new country its not acceptable to spit on the street etc…

3)”But if you walk through the street of Warsaw or Minsk you would hardly find a cigarette butt or see someone peenig on the tree.”

Well yes, but all countries have their problems, and I assure you that Eastern European ones are not exactly the most attractive countries around. People in Minsk, Moscow or Kiev tend to be the most unfriendly, grumpy, unsmiling lot of people on the planet. They also have the most unhelpful service people in the world. In China shop assistants and waiters at least smile, and sometimes they can be nice and helpful too. Try finding that in Minsk. Poland is a bit better in my experience, but still the bad weather, bad food and grumpy people mean that Eastern Europe is generally not considered to be an attractive destination for most people. The girls are pretty, and that’s all the good you can say about it.

What I am getting at is that you attack China constantly, but are probably quite oblivious to how your country might seem even worse to outsiders. All countries have problems, and really China is not the worse around.

I still don’t quite get why “Nanny Hiccups” seems so interested without ever visiting China a few times.

It’s pretty safe mostly. The only way a random pedestrian stands a chance to get randomly jumped is if they sew a Japanese war flag to their shirt with the message: 昭和天皇万岁 or something.

There is a slowly growing hostility towards anything not Chinese, but it’s not bubbling into violence just yet. It’s just the sort of thing you’re seeing with Jin here, indignation over 140 year old wounds and a world view where everyone else is collectively out to get China. China simply finds it very difficult to deal with other countries on stable terms, it vacillates between hubris and humiliation and the opening and closing cycle corresponds to this.

The 2008 Olympics was the absolute peak of the healthy kind of Chinese pride and openness and I am personally proud to have had the chance to witness the growth of this great country during these last years, even though at times it has not seemed as positive as late.

I would encourage anyone, even if they have the blackest of black skin to see China a few times in the next few years. There is nothing quite like it in both its highs and its lows. It’s not what you’re expecting, it’s not what anyone could possibly be able to expect, it’s both breathtaking and infuriating and will make you look back on all of those posts you made before visiting and feel a little bit embarrassed.

donscarletti

In the early and mid 19th century the British Empire went around smuggling imports ashore and blowing up the ports and ships of countries that wouldn’t trade with them (not just opium, but pretty much anything they wanted to export). They did it in France, they did it in Russia and especially to America, to the extent that they would even confiscate American ships (especially ships in the illegal slave trade or ships going to France) and force American sailors to serve in the British navy.

Meanwhile the Qing Empire was subjugating Vietnam, Korea and Tibet, while 凌迟 was still a formal and commonly used punishment, footbinding was practised upon most Han women. The Manchu government could and did kill people on the emperor’s personal whim.

Meanwhile at the time of the final opium war, in the United States, black people could be bought and sold and forced to pick cotton all day long and Belgians worked Congolese slaves to death in rubber plantations.

The 19th century was rough and horrid. That’s why people don’t do act like that any more. At least the Anglo-French forces did not enter Beijing and instead destroyed only the emperor’s private property in 颐和园 and 圆明园, which given the standards of the day, was pretty restrained, considering the Emperor Yizhu “Total Pussy” Aixinjueluo had just 凌迟ed a whole British diplomatic mission.

Niels

Your sentence “Chinese people were long civilized before your Europeans” make me thinking whether european history is still taught in the US or not. If you had read Ovid (so beautiful), Cicero or Homer you would not dare to charactarise european civilisation as a bunch of uncultivated barbarians that recently rose to civilisation.
The european civilisation, the way we think, the way we see the world, is old. Its chain is unbroken since 3500 years.
We might argue whether it can be called civilised or not to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people in the colosseum just for amusement. I can assure you that I do not like violence for its on sake.
Aside from violence and drive for war, there is a third attribute, which determines the very bases of european civilisation. It is the drive for the unknown, for the new, from which the love for science arises. That is what I like most! It is the best the western civilisation has to offer.

Niels

my words were referring to Nanny Hiccups

Niels

@donscarletti

you speak true about 2008. The two weeks I spent in Beijing during the Olympics where the greatest experience in my life. I talked to so many students and volunteers. I sensed that the whole country was chanching rapidly.
I will come back to China next year and I am already excited about it. There are so many treasures to discover. Last one I stumbled upon was 李清照.

@Nanny

Yours words about China would be much more credible if you had been there at last once.

Snarl

I have no wish to enter this conversation, however I did want to reply to this off-hand comment by NH: “First, I am not Chinese I am American and I am an observer which renders me completely objective.”

I have to deal with people all the time who think some thing or other makes them completely objective. There is no complete objectivity as long as you are human. And there is no correlation that I have noticed between not being member to a group and being objective about that group. Outsiders are just as likely to fall prey to subjective thinking, there are just different forces at work that inform your views. Anyway, I just felt like saying that.

The Enlightened One

What a lot of these guys say is true about having a stronger and more valued opinion having actually been or lived in China for some time.

Before I came to China, I researched it for 2 YEARS, just asking questions with friends that were here and pretty much everything.

That didn’t even scratch the surface… You really need to be there to be there… there simply is no substitute. NH, if you have the time you really should check it out.

Scott

“Chinese people were long civilized before your Europeans.”

Yet another foolish East-West canard easily disproved by education, e.g. read Why the West Rules – For Now, Ian Morris, 2010. The West clearly led on the scale of social development (as measured by energy capture, organization/urbanization,war-making and information technology; if you have better indices Ian Morris wants to hear from you) from 14,000 BCE to around 700 CE, then after 1773 the West just broke through all ceilings, pushing social development from a nominal level just in the hundreds in 1900 to to a score of more than 12,000 at present and climbing. No, that does not infer that Western civilization is superior; the entire story does illustrate how civilizations must cope with similar problems, natural and man-made, and that each reaches certain ceilings to development that must be punched through to reach a higher level. The West more recently, circa 1773, did it earlier and now much, much faster.

El Puma R.

“Chinese people were long civilized before your Europeans and a great deal of their influence is felt in things we use in our lives and culture including the very firepower that feeds your guns.”

Yes, you’re right. Chinese people WERE more civilized long before us, but not now! Problem is, with cultural revolution killing all the intellectuals and after that capitalism taking part in the game, all chinese culture has gone to hell, replacing confucius introspective philosophy and Traditional Chinese Medicine with lots of noise, pollution, inconsideration, selfishness and expensive hospitals with useless and corrupt doctors.

Nanny Hiccups I understand your frustration towards other people’s thoughts, but you just can’t deny that majority of people in China are so obsessed with looking good and buying things they don’t need so then they can go around showing off to their friends, and all this phenomena is dragging them back from the civilization they’re trying to build. As I tell some of my friends and students here: Having an iphone doesn’t make you civilized as long as you don’t yield when driving, as long as you litter, spit, make noise, push people when walking, and carelessly pollute the world you live in. Civilization parts from the point when you realize that there’s other people living in your town, and you have to put in consideration the fact that they have the same needs you have. Unfortunately and after some years living in China, It’s really NOT easy to find people preaching communication, consideration, understanding and order. Most of the time I see people walking and bumping into each other, as if nothing happened.

And please stop with your speculations. China, Just like korea and japan, all have been governed by iron fists since the dawn of their time. And the Chinese iron fist carries on a silent capitalist and subliminal motto: “You can be God, just need money. Do something wrong and run away, if not you’ll be framed and therefore pay lots of money for just being a good man”.

Nanny please don’t come around with communist or traditional chinese culture because in general, The chinese people who live in big cities have almost completely lost the good things about their culture, only things that are still standing are drinking, eating, getting married while you’re young or you’ll be an outcast, and all the “save face” social protocol that most of the time pushes honesty and sincerity into oblivion. All that’s left is “Save face”… and that’s what that family tried to do, save face and let the other guy die.

PS: Countless times I’ve “saved” Women walking with their children from not being rolled over by a bus or a car..(most of the time I just put the child back, he/she doesn’t have to die because his/her mom is a retard) and even worse, some of those times, they laughed at me while I was telling them how stupid they are for crossing the street with a child without looking. They also laugh when I tell them not to let the children ride in the front seat of a car.

It’s good to have shiny and new shopping malls, but it’s completely useless if you don’t -at least- try to make people behave better. All I see that has been done is “here you are, just come and play”.. exactly like the english classes I teach.. some kids just simple DONT GIVE A FUCK about anything… and their parents will chastise and curse you if you tell them they’re wasting their money and time putting his kid in a training school.. and the school will fire you. Even worse, those Fu Er dai second generation of rich people who claim to be “studying” for the ielts test when they’re actually playing with their iphone4s in each and every class. If I even try to make them stop and actually care about something, they’ll frame me and make me look like the worst teacher ever, therefore making me lose my job because I didn’t let them play for a minute.

so, nanny, What the fuck are you standing up for? People, in general, are good people. However that won’t change the fact that if you don’t educate them, things like these we read above will be more likely to keep happening, more often and each time it’s worse than the last one.

I will get out of china because most people here are doing nothing for everybody’s sake and I’m working on it as I’ve come to realize that I’m the smallest minority, that minority that uses critical thinking in order to make things better.

Call me racist. But those 200 000 Chinese Fujian countryside people who moved to my country in less than 5 years were never rejected, unwelcome or silenced for the sakes of us saving face. Even though they sell expired goods, they brought mafia and lots of shady business, they’re dirty and bring sanitary problems to the neighborhoods they live in, we didn’t shut them off. we just re-educated them, and we still do. things are better now for chinese people in my country.

So go shut your bf’s mouth, if he lets you do it.

Twind

I would like to respond to some of the points raised in this particular discussion. I believe many of China’s past and current problems dealing with the West have much to do with culture clashes. The different worldviews, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries between China and the West were also a major problem. I think this was the key as to why the Qing and England had trouble communicating with each other back in the 18th and 19th centuries. Both sides simply had different concepts about many things out there, such as the concept of international waters (Though I am not totally sure, as a concept, if it has already been firmly established in the West in the late 18th, early 19th centuries or not). I must say, I think China’s worldview was different from the worldview of the West even before the 18th and 19th centuries. I am not sure if the two worldviews have ever been the same. Even today, I am not sure if China shares exactly the same worldview as the Western world. I am interested to see how this entire interaction between China and the West will develop in the future.

I know China has a lot of diversity within herself, and the West is far from a single, monolithic entity. Therefore, I am only making a general observation here regarding the West and China. I am not saying that there were absolutely no similarities between the West and China in the past. For a while now, since the 19th century, China has become more similar to the West. But even now, there are still some differences between the two sides, and I doubt they will ever be the same. In addition, for most of their respective histories, there were more differences than similarities.

Both China and the West have also gone through many different phases in their histories, with a lot of changes throughout time. This also includes changes in geographical locations and territorial boundaries. Therefore, I am simply making a general observation here. I am not giving a detailed analysis of China and the West.

In addition, I am sure there have been friendly interactions between China and the West based on mutual understandings in the past. The same is true of now, and hopefully, in the future as well. Therefore, I am not saying that good communication between the two sides has never taken place in the past. I hope good communication based on mutual understandings will continue to take place in the present, which is going all right at this moment, and in the future.

By the way, several other posters have also written about the topics discussed here in this particular discussion, including several posts by myself from a while back. These other posts at the bottom of this thread should help to expand on what I have written here, though many of their positions on issues discussed in this particular discussion are pretty similar to mine. Finally, readers should feel free to not read both of my long post and my short one right below this post (They were responding to the poster BigCAD, but they shouldn’t be responding to him/her, they were misplaced). That long response (post) is an earlier version of this post.

Lastly, as with all of my posts, please excuse my poor writing skills displayed in this post and in other posts in this thread.

Twind

In my previous post, I should have written the following: “I believe many of China’s past and current problems in dealing with the West have much to do with culture clashes.” I didn’t include the word “in” before the word “dealing” in the original sentence in the previous post. In addition, regarding whether the Chinese can learn to be polite and become more “civilized”, I think the answer is yes, it just takes time, that’s all.

If there is anything wrong with my writing here, then that’s too bad. Sorry.

Twind

I think a poster below has it right. This is actually a pretty sad story, so I think this particular discussion right here has actually gone quite off the track. Btw, regarding China’s role in WWII, they did contribute. It was not like they didn’t do anything. The Chinese forces did manage to hold off the Japanese military forces long enough for the Americans and others to join in the battle. Granted, the Americans played the major role in battling against Japan, but still, China did contribute to the war effort.

As for the CCP, they also contributed in WWII, but not as the primary fighting forces against Japan. The CCP troops did have some success in the Post-WWII period, e.g. the Korean War. They didn’t win the war, but they didn’t lose the war either. As for the Sino-Vietnamese conflict during the Post-Mao era, I believe it was pretty much a draw, with neither side managed to win big.

Also, while many Chinese these days are atheists, many of them are not communists. In fact, some of the Chinese out there are actually quite anti-communists. As for China’s old tradition, it has not been totally lost. Besides the actual destruction of China’s old cultures in the 20th century, the more “destructive”, the “bad” aspect of China’s old tradition was also able to have the upper hand for much of the 20th century. We shall see if the more “constructive”, the “good” part of the Chinese old tradition can make a full comeback or not. Finally, anyone who is interested in the earlier opium wars and trade debate here in this particular discussion should take a look at John’s posts toward the bottom of this thread. It’s pretty good. In addition, over there, other posters like david have also written about topics like how “open” was China in the past and so forth. So, yeah, please take a look at the end of this thread.

I know I am also guilty of discussing something quite off-topic from the main subject of this thread. But I can’t help it. Again, please excuse any bad writing in this post or in any of my other posts in this thread. Thanks.

Twind

I am not sure if I have written about this or not in my previous post, but that there are in fact a lot of diversity (diversity of any kind) within Chinese society itself. So it’s kind of hard to judge sometimes what Chinese people are really like. This is true of any group of people out there. So, let’s not generalize too much here. Btw, one can find some responses below toward the end of the page/thread about many of the topics that have been talked about in this particular discussion (this “semi-thread” here), e.g. Chinese Imperialism of the past, the issue of Chinese self-reflection…etc., Check them out.

Please excuse any bad writing in this post. Thanks.

Twind

In my previous post, the last sentence of the post should have been, “Btw, one can find some responses below toward the end of the page/thread to many of the topics that have been talked about in this particular discussion (this “semi-thread” here). Topics such as the following: Chinese Imperialism in the past; the issues of Chinese self-reflection and the Chinese’s reflections on their own history and things in general; the status of expats and their contributions to the Mainland (This includes both foreign and ethnic Chinese expats); and many other topics discussed in this “semi-thread”. Check them out.”

I also want to add one more thing: While it is true that many foreign and ethnic Chinese expats living in China do want to see the country becoming a better place, and her people doing better, I think over-the-top criticisms of China/Chinese simply won’t do. How one criticizes, the tone, the method, and the approach one uses are all factors in determining whether the criticism will work on its intended subject or not. In addition, instead of complaining about China/Chinese on an English message board, why not spread one’s message on a Chinese internet forum? If one doesn’t know Chinese, then that’s a major problem. I wonder can that person really understand China/Chinese without knowing the Chinese language? Does he/she really want China/Chinese to do better? Or is he/she just venting here? And if one does know the Chinese language, why doesn’t that person go to a Chinese message board and spread his/her view there? One cannot help China/Chinese if one doesn’t communicate with the Chinese.

Again, please excuse any bad writing in this post.

Twind

Ooops! I should have written, “the following sentence in the post should have been” instead of “the last sentence of the post should have been” in my previous post, the one I have just posted.

Lakeman

Some interesting observations here in this discussion. I guess topics that have been talked about here can be very complicated, but a couple of points:

1. Is China a “me-first” culture? It looks to be that way, though it can be very complicated, so I’ll reserve my judgement.

2. Someone wrote earlier “one time the Chinese there producing 90% of the world output of opium trade at one pont”. I believe the figure is close, but I think according to historian Alfred W. McCoy, China was producing about 85% of world’s opium around 1906-07, at least around that period of time.

3. As for KMT and Mao and their involvement with opium trades and whatnot, I think that might be true, though I am not totally sure about the details. But I don’t know where the 60 million dollars figure come from, it doesn’t seem to appear in the links given by the poster who mentioned the 60 million figure.

4. Opium war is a tragedy. The British certainly did wrong. While the Chinese had faults, let’s not underestimate the British effect on the whole opium thing. The British were controlling the whole opium thing throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and possibly, the 20th century as well.

5. Self-reflection among the Chinese on their past: Some Chinese can be overtly critical, others, not so much. It seems very few Chinese have the right amount of self-reflection on history or on any other subject. For most Chinese, it’s either too much (way too much self-criticism) or too little (too little self-criticism). However, a small number of Chinese does have the right amount of self-reflection, whether it’s on China’s past or on anything else for that matter.

6. Oh yeah, China is not an easy country to understand. And I hope no one here really thinks he/she totally knows the country already. It’s hard for the Chinese themselves to really understand their own country, let alone for foreign people who have only been in China for a brief while, or even for a number of years. I suppose this is true with all countries, though. That is, very few people can truly understand a particular country or culture.

Lakeman

Well, there have been many names for China in the past. Most of the time, it seems the dynasty’s name is the official name for the country. As for the name Zhongguo, while I do understand why some people think it displays a sense of arrogance, it is also true that for most of China’s history, China was the center and the most civilized place in the East Asian World. So in some ways, the name Zhongguo is justified. Of course, down to the modern times, China is no longer the most powerful civilization in the world known to her, so the name Zhongguo can definitely sound very pretentious and arrogant. But it is what it is.

As for the dealings between China and Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries, certainly arrogance played a role on both sides. But I think other posters who have written about culture clashes and different worldviews have done enough to explain this issue. The same is true for why China didn’t “open” enough to outsiders during the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. It’s probably due to China’s different cultures and different worldviews from the West. But it’s definitely complicated and there are also other historical reasons and reasons in general to explain why China didn’t open more to outsiders during that time. As for why King George didn’t immediately go to war with the Qianlong Emperor after being “insulted”, it’s anyone’s guess. But even if he did, I think the result was going to be more or less the same as what took place in reality, but then again, who knows?

As for many Chinese’ bad social behavior these days, “survival mode” is certainly one explanation. The constant turmoils in Chinese society, be it wars, social and cultural and economic revolutions and whatnot from the late 18th century onward to about the late 1970’s and early 1980’s is also another factor that contributed to the survival mode of many Chinese today and the chaos in Chinese society in general. Of course, overpopulation, poverty and explosive economic growth in widening the rich and poor gap are also factors that contributed to the current problems in Chinese society, and also more than likely the survival mode of the Chinese people. Some people also talk about the problems within China’s traditional culture and society. But we also shouldn’t forget about the current Chinese government, which is certainly very corrupt. So yeah, many reasons to explain China’s current problems and there are certainly other reasons that I’ve not listed here. While I do believe there are many good Chinese out there, there are also many bad ones as well. Again, a tough situation where any generalizations and/or exaggerations can’t really provide a good explanation to China’s situation.

Lakeman

Oh yeah, to reply to a poster earlier: I don’t know if the idea of international waters has been firmly established in the West back in the late 18th or early 19th centuries either. So maybe I should go do some research about this topic.

BigCAD

I wouldn’t say kick the shit out of the HK population (original population 7,450 Chinese residents). A well administered bubble was created off the coast of Guangdong to in which Chinese who wished to achieve their full potential would flow to whenever apocalyptic events engulfed the mainland, be it Taiping rebellion or Cultural revolution.

The Honkies for the most part policed themselves and worked amongst themselves under efficient and effective guidance (wish we had some of that back home). Thus the handover was relatively clean cut as they had been everything for themselves for decades.

If we had indeed strong armed the local population the protesters would not have been flying colonial flags the other week.

As the father of both Chinas, Sun Yat Sen declared, it was the corruption of China and the peace, order and good government of Hong Kong that turned him into a revolutionary. *Some things never change*.

…….

Agreed China has no culture, funny thing is after a cultural revolution you don’t have much of it left, what we are seeing is a counter cultural revolution (make it up as you go along culture). For the closest thing to a natural progression of Chinese culture, please see Taiwan.

Twind

See my take on some of the points raised in this particular discussion at the bottom of this thread. At the moment, the last post of this thread.

Twind

On second thought, I guess I should have just posted here my original post at the bottom of this thread. So that’s what I am going to do here. This post will be slightly different from the original post at the bottom of this thread.

I believe many of China’s past and current problems dealing with the West have much to do with culture clashes. The different worldviews, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries between China and the West also did not help. I think this was the key as to why the Qing and England had trouble communicating with each other back in the 18th and 19th centuries. Both sides simply had different concepts about many things out there, such as the concept of international waters (Though I am not totally sure, as a concept, if it has already been firmly established in the West in the late 18th, early 19th centuries or not). I must say, I think China’s worldview was different from the worldview of the West even before the 18th and 19th centuries. I am not sure if the two worldviews have ever been the same. Even today, I am not sure if China shares exactly the same worldview as the Western world. I am interested to see how this entire interaction between China and the West will develop in the future.

By the way, I know China has a lot of diversity within herself, and the West is far from a single, monolithic entity. Therefore, to quote another poster, “I am only making a general observation here regarding Europe and China”. In addition, I am sure there have been friendly interactions between China and the West based on mutual understandings in the past. The same is true of now, and hopefully, in the future as well. Therefore, I am not saying that good communication between the two sides has never taken place in the past. I hope good communication based on mutual understandings will continue to take place in the present, which is going all right at this moment, and in the future.

By the way, several other posters have also written about the topics discussed here in this particular discussion, including several posts by myself from a while back. These other posts at the bottom of this thread should help to expand on what I have written here, though many of their positions on issues discussed in this particular discussion are pretty similar to mine. Finally, as with all of my posts, I apologize for any possible bad writing in this post here and in my other posts in this thread.

Strangerland

Majority of people in India are Hindu, not Moslem right? I mean, I’m sure most of them are still Hinduists. I personally think Hindu is a peaceful religion, compared to you-know-what. Maybe that’s why India can be so peaceful eventhough recently, it also start to gain problems from its other major religion *cough, wink*. Shameful China lost its Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism core. I think maybe they’d regain their 3-religion core again eventually, but lately I heard Christianity is one of major religion now in China(though majority are still Atheist communists).

Strangerland

Oh Btw, I’m just responding to Alan :). Sorry if I seem to be not on the same wavelength with anyone above me. Come on guys, lighten up, this is not the time to talk about those things right? A good man has died and finally the “ex-victims” shown their respects to him, I’d not complicate matters by trying to dissect their actions by showing up. A mother and father lost a good son and they’re mourning, give them your words of respect at least. My condolence to the grieving family.

Alexander

Such cowardly act can only be repaid by a lifetime of indentured servitude to the dead man’s family…..

Dr SUN

good idea

Sri lankan blood

Hats off to there parents to have a such a heroic son!!!

Nanny Hiccups

How does the comments below turn into a conversation on how bad Chinese people are? Do you forget the one who risked his life to save someone? Or the hero from the other article who risked his own young life to stop someone who had just stabbed a man with a sword in cold blood?

Good people are everywhere in this world, including China. There are bad people all over the world too, including China.

What does that make someone who generalizes or stereotypes a whole of billion people? Where do you fall? Good or bad?

Kilkenny

Maybe you would be surprised but mostly foreigners consider Chinese as very hospitable and pleasant people. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t point at some of your flaws. One of the greatest is your nations overall personal culture level. No one here intended to offend your people.

The Enlightened One

Kilkenny,

I don’t think she is Chinese… lol

You keep addressing her as if she was… “your people”, “you flaws”

and then your post above.

Kilkenny

She has an asian face on her userpic, so I first thought she is Chinese, she hasn’t attached her passport scan, lol. She could be Chinese American but she still uses Chinese paradigm in judgements, while describing me as a racist and urging to leave their country if I dislike it (by the way I don’t live in China, lol, just coming here rather often on business trips), while I mention that I respect their nation despite even some problems with them.

The Enlightened One

I am not sure where you come from (Asian?), but she is clearly of African decent, most likely African-American.

Kilkenny

Bloody hell, I give up then.

elizabeth

I haven’t seen a Chinese here who looks like Nanny. The closest resemblance she has to an ‘Asian’ is a Filipino-Spanish, Malaysian or Indonesian.

Definitely not a Chinese national.

Nanny Hiccups

Now I look part Asian. I guess it depends on whose looking. Or maybe your surprise that anyone who is not chinese would defend someone who is chinese. Not all of us share your hatred. I would stand up for anybody, whether white, black, asian, latino if the wrong thing is being said. Yes, I make my share of comments too that aren’t kind, depending on who is annoying me at the moment, so I understand. Or I am trolling sometimes, but I still dislike anything that starts to feel like race bashing.

I think even while living there KilKenny, you do not understand Chinese people.

Kilkenny

Let’s have a deal. I stop calling you Asian, we figured it out. You stop saying that I live in China – I am not living there, I am visiting it from time to time.

Nanny Hiccups

Stop calling me Chinese. I am not Chinese, just because I defend them against some of your racist comments. I can understand the desire to criticize different aspects of a culture, every country has its flaws. But then the comments go too far, to call someone uncivilized, apathetic, evil, greedy, and so on.

You have nothing insightful or analytical to offer in your positions, just stereotypes, generalizations and sweeping condemnations. Try to articulate your perspective in a less vitriolic manner and maybe, that would lend your opinions some credence.

moop

haha, i’m not sure why he is calling you chinese, as if a picture of a light-skinned african american isnt a clue

Nanny Hiccups

I was thinking the same thing lol like wtf. I thought maybe the picture could only be seen by me lol

moop

i just hope he doesnt think i am a cat or something

linette

i just hope he doesnt think i am a cat or something…

hahaha…moop you are cracking me up.. I hope he is not thinking I am a butterfly.

Nanny is an attractive looking woman. That’s all. She is American.

Nanny Hiccups

That made me laugh too

The Enlightened One

Nanny,

I wouldn’t take what most foreigners say here about China too seriously. Most of the time they are just venting but in actuality love many elements about China.

You can’t really comprehend this sort of love and hate relationship until you have been lived in China for a few years. Unfortunately, the internet gives us a way to release some of that anger and hatred without consequence. But in retrospect, I would rather a foreigner vent on ChinaSMACK a little than wandering around China like a ticking time bomb. Because the results may make all foreigners (or a specific nationality) living in China look bad.

For example: When that British man tried to rape the girl, I personally saw a newspaper come out with an article titled “British, the fake gentlemen”…

Nanny Hiccups

I know, but it makes my blood boil a little when I read certain things. I know the expats are there because they like it, for the most part and China is probably a little interesting and a little addictive.

Kilkenny

You are right, personally I like many things about China. But unlike most newcomers I could see some minuses about this country as well. The funniest thing is when Chinese start to discuss the same matters themselves no one gives a shit, but if a foreigner starts mentioning it, he immediately gets a racist label.

Nanny Hiccups

That’s everywhere, KilKenny. In America black people use the N word in rap songs and everything else. Gwyneth Paltrow tweeted a comment about “N words in Paris for real”… which is the actual name of the song, and she was there hanging out with the rappers who made the songs as they are her close friends, and everybody in America criticized her.

I think we just have to accept that while it is acceptable for people to make unflattering observations about their culture, it is impolite and considered a little “racist” for foreigners or outsiders to make those same observations – even if it’s true. Just be polite, nod your head and smile.

The Enlightened One

Yeah,

I know what you mean. I guess it’s kind of like when you yell at your kid for being bad… then you feel it is somewhat okay… kind of justified because you care about them…

But if some other person comes along and starts scolding and yelling at your kid… you kind of get a bit pissed off. It’s like, mind your own business, don’t you yell at my kid!

I think it is something kind of like that.

linette

love and hate relationship….hehehe..sounds like married couples. Can’t live without them, can’t kill them……

Kilkenny

You definitely have never been to China, hearing them discussing at the table all the stereotypes about your nation – Polish like to drink, polish are european plumbers and so on. Actually I don’t really care, because I know that Poles don’t have the best reputation in Europe and somehow can agree on these matters. But if they allow to do that why can’t I speak about their flaws? Or I should continue nodding and lick their asses?

Kilkenny

BTW, Nanny, if you are of African descent when you come to China, you undoubtedly can experience chinese attitude to people of African origin. There are an African community in Nanjing and all of the guys telling, that a taxi driver could easily refuse to pick you up or start racist talks about “filthy n*****s” and how much they hate you. I listened to this crap myself many times. Even one of my companions, not an uneducated peasant told me, that black people are only capable of unskilled jobs and they should remain slaves, while the whole table of his friends was laughing. I wonder, would you continue to support your position after that kind of experience.

Nanny Hiccups

KilKenny,

You use the analogy of “African descent” and China’s attitudes toward blacks as if that will change my opinion of them. Well first, I’m not African or of “African origin”. I’m American and Black and my ancestors have been Black in America for hundreds of years. Secondly, I don’t have to worry about experiencing such things because for the most part, I am pleasant to look at regardless of what one thinks of my ethnicity. If anything, I would probably become teased for being too fat before I am teased about racial matters.

Most racism in China today that reflects American racial attitudes and slurs is an extension of China’s xenophobic culture – it is what it is. The fact that someone felt comfortable speaking that way in front of you, says more about what they thought of your company than the Africans they were talking about. It was an accusation towards your attitude at best.

Last, I would never visit China for a job in the first place, nor would i ever have to.

Kilkenny

Oh, they speak those things to me, because they feel that I am a racist as well. Hillarious. Think of something more erm, creative.
I still doubt what do you do here as far you have never been to China neither planning too.

Nanny Hiccups

what am i doing on this site? reading the news. Do I need to go there to read and learn about the world? I had plans to visit as part of some research but after reading Chinasmack I was scared away from those plans. I would be the dumbass who gets killed there or fall into some hole or get kidnapped or something. I have stupid naive person written all over my facial expression so I would be no good in China.

Kilkenny

Of course, in comparison to a person who is having business with the Chinese for 8 years, a person, shouting “AAARGH, racist, leave China immediately” you are a great expert. Maybe you could even offer something “insightful or analytical” to the matter of public peeing.

Nanny Hiccups

No restrooms nearby? Is that analytical? Why keep the poison inside. When it comes to farting, more room outside than in.

Kilkenny

Come and piss the whole Tiananmen square if you wish, I don’t care. But when I first saw it on the streets of Warsaw I became really annoyed. Even the biggest drunkards don’t do that. That’s impolite.

The Enlightened One

Some Chinese guy was pissing on the streets in your hometown?

Okay, that’s when I would start to get angry too.

But you know what REALLY gets me mad?

When they call you wai guo ren in your own country… I CAN’T STAND THAT… Just say the nationality of the people! They should obviously know it if they are in the country lol

Capt. WED

you sure? I’ve seen plenty of “westerners” pissing on the street.

“filthy n****s?” you seriously gonna tell me Chinese people in Chinese know that word where they would call people that?

Capt. WED

are you one of those people that racism is over here but racism is over there too kind of guy? Like that explains everything.

Capt. WED

LOL. Yeah a website like “chimpout.com” exists in China. ;)

Kilkenny

As far we speak English here, I wrote a translation. He wasn’t speaking English of course, he told it in Chinese, something like “黑人不洗澡，恨死了”

Capt. WED

I’m not denying there isn’t racism.

linette

Racism exist in every country. You will always find people calling other stupid chink, nigger, laowai, kimchi, guido, yamaka, etc…..in front or behind your back.
There will always be people denied of a job because of their race. It’s up to the gov’t and people in the society to bring awareness and fight racism. Zero tolerance for racism.

You know, racism against black people does exist in China, but it’s not necessarily worse than in Western countries, it’s just more “in your face”, because the Chinese don’t have Western attitudes on political correctness, so they openly say what they think.

People may not be so ready to tell strangers negative opinions about black people in Western countries, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have them. I have heard Africans who have lived in both China and Europe, claiming that Europeans are actually more racist. He said at least the Chinese will change their views if they meet a black person who is clearly capable and nice.

Nanny Hiccups

Jixiang,

Western societies have racist attitudes but its for the most part, only online. They never say the crap to anyone’s face. But you kind of know its there. Overall, I live in mixed company and I never experience any racism. If someone is acting in an insulting manner through gestures, I become even more insulting to the point of belittling them with mine… all without saying a word. I believe, much of what is racism in Chinese society was planted by western societies, and the fact that their social norms value alabaster complexion as beauty.

moop

thats not true. chiense and japanese preferences for light complextion has been the ideal of beauty for centuries since ancient times. look at any old piece of art. no need for trolling with idiotic statements about race, which has become your MO.

” I believe, much of what is racism in Chinese society was planted by western societies,”
Evil Whitey strikes again huh?
Reminds me of an old comic I saw once, these two old Jewish Russian kulacks are sitting by the side of the road, they’re all ragged, their boots are tied together with string. One of them is reading a newspaper by the “Black hundred” full of anti-semitic stories: The Jews are responsible for all the wars, jewish bankers control the world etc.
The first one says:” Levi , why are you reading that anti-Jewish trash?”.
Levi says: “Oh, it’s just nice to believe we have such power”.

Zappa Frank

@jixiang
well wait that china has so many africans as europe and than we’ll see what they’ll say ok? i don’t want justfy racism.. but there’s a big difference between having a few africans in your country and being outnumbered. I still remeber in my country when they started to arrive in 70s we were all courious and there was virtually no racism… now that they have district and they are everywhere we also have racism.. I don’t justify that racism, it’s wrong anyway. But my meaning is that it’s easy not beeing racist when you have so few forigners africans

whiskersthecat

”I believe, much of what is racism in Chinese society was planted by western societies,”
The White Man comin’ to getcha!

Little Wolf

So…..according to ninny hiccups, there was no racism(fuck…not that word again) before the Internet and everybody just kept it bottled inside because nobody dared to criticize another race in public. I think I’m just going to skip over any future comments by her, at least until she changes her username again for the umpteenth time and I figure it out and skip over those too.

Brett Hunan

Nanny… Not trying to gang up on you (it may seem that way because others have already posted in response) but how could you possibly believe what you wrote? I can’t seem to put my head around it.

Dr SUN

LOL

El Puma R.

Nanny Hiccups

save some cash, spend a few months in China and then come back to us with your full-of-moral impartial pseudo socialist comments. We’ll see if you still think the same.

Over population is a big influence for everything that happens here, but at the same time it should be the mere reason for the govt to invest in education.

HinDL

Thats the problem with the mob. Everybody calls them worthless pieces of shit that should go to apologize to the saviors family and when they do, everybody says it is just because we told them to! If you find the logic in that you can keep it…
Also wondering why they don’t start swimming education in school. I can imagine it might be difficult in remote areas but one hast to start some day. So many people die in China because they are not able to swim! This is such a basic thing that can not not be taught!

Kilkenny

How much I love the pathetic comments of Chinese starting urge you to leave their country if people are not licking their asses and try to point at some of their flaws. That really sounds funny. I just kinda doubt, what would you do if all of the foreign specialists, who do quality check-ups, organizing the whole production processes and actually helping you to achieve at least somehow acceptable quality standards of your, mostly, crappy goods would leave? Really, thinking of the consequences never was your best. You still believe, that you could critisize the whole world, but no one could dare to say something against you. That’s pathetic.

Quinon

I lol @ this.

The Chinese need expertise from abroad, but not from “quality check-ups” and “organizing the production process.” Their factories, manufacturing and associated infrastructure would do fine because they have been a manufacturing powerhouse for decades, and a global backbone for years. Production is cake for the Chinese.

No, the Chinese need expertise to develop and implement cutting-edge technology, to develop their knowledge-driven services sectors, and (most of all at the moment) to properly brand their products in order to sell to western consumer markets.

Now, I agree that the Chinese economy would lose out if it “kicked out all the foreigners,” but the truth is that no sensible businessman in China actually wants to. But before you let it get to your head, remember that many jobs in China for foreigners are also at the sufferance of the Chinese, not the other way around–they keep us around because Chinese companies and the government have overflowing pockets, and it is useful to get a second opinion.

You know what else is “pathetic” by your standards? The fact that illegal immigrants are widely reviled in the US despite the fact that they supply workers for an unfilled niche in the American economy. They pay taxes (many do) and drive demand for goods and services. Remove them and suddenly you have a worker shortage on a scale that would make kicking out all the foreign workers in China look like a smoke break. Yet there are constantly calls to “erect a fence” and also to “deport them all.” And these calls are much louder than anything you hear in China. I wouldn’t call Americans “pathetic” for this alone because I think myopia is human nature. But if you want to call China pathetic for wanting to kick out its foreign population, the US illegal immigrant debate is far worse.

Let’s put this all in perspective: (1) we are useful, but not indispensable–and any laowai with a working head on their shoulders will remember that fact; (2) calls to kick out foreigners are all over the place, and far worse than you see in China.

Just because you are on the ass-end of a mild case of nationalist vitriol does not suddenly make it an aberrant outrage. Grow up and learn to live with it.

jon

It matters on perspective. China is the country in the world that has the worst quality products. Products from China going into the USA are 6 times more likely to be defect, compared to products from Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philipines or other Asian countries. Some of which are equally as “poor” as China. The only thing accounting for this 6x increase is morality. Chinese morality is lacking.

Furthermore, 50% of immigrants in the USA don’t have an occupation, which means they either don’t seek jobs or don’t work. So I don’t get why you think more immigrants is better. I’m sure not all immigrants are bad, 50% actually have a job. But don’t spew propaganda that immigrants work more then ones born in the US (including minorities), when data shows otherwise.

Quinon

Stop making numbers up. The unemployment rate for illegal immigrants is 10%, compared to 9.6% for citizens.

Can you please give a source for the 6x number? I’d like to see how they define “Products from China.” Or did you make this number up too?

Also, I was talking about legal immigrants/immigrants in asylum camps, you were talking about illegal immigrant. They have a much higher unemployment rate, nearing 50%.

Quinon

This is the last time I am responding to your uninformed garbage.

Also, note to self: never read China law blog. So you know, there is no such thing as the US “Consumer Protection Agency.” You may be referring to the FTC BCP. In case it’s not clear, an anonymous quote from a “higher-up” at a fictitious agency is still not a source. Typically a legitimate source has a transparent methodology and actually lists a basis for its figures.

By legal immigrants, do you mean only asylum seekers? There are far more of the former than the latter, and the unemployment rate for legal immigrants, as of 2010, was 11.8%.

For asylum seekers only–I hope you understand that asylum-seekers are only granted status if they are persecuted and it is legally determined that they have absolutely no alternative. Countries refuse asylum-seekers all the time, and in the few cases that they do grant it, these are people who literally have nowhere left to go. I see absolutely no source for an unemployment rate of 50%, but a heightened unemployment rate is to be expected. If you think asylum should be denied because it raises the unemployment rate, you are so stupid that you have no sense of perspective (because unemployment doesn’t figure into the asylum calculus at all) and you are not a person with a soul.

Have you ever even been to school? Your existence makes the internet a dumber place–and that is remarkably hard to do.

Totally no agenda. Also, he lists no numbers other than the massive number of exports to the US.

In case your thick skull hasn’t processed this, this garbage link does not qualify as a source.

mr. wiener

Thanks for the post quinon , ding’d everything you said.

Kilkenny

“Their factories, manufacturing and associated infrastructure would do fine because they have been a manufacturing powerhouse for decades, and a global backbone for years. Production is cake for the Chinese.”

Fuck, man, I am working in plush toy industry and during these 8 years I’ve been living between my Poland and China only to sustain acceptable quality of our goods. Some of the factories produce our toys for more than 6 years, but nevertheless they continue to produce crap with holes and dirt on it, or installing plastic eyes on the toys somewhere between ass and head. When it comes with talks like “they use cutting edge technolgies bla-bla-bla” I want to cry – if you won’t control them, they will be making cheap crap always changing the materials and sewing the toys by housewifes on their knees somewhere in the Anhui villages shitty 60 square-meters factories.
On the other hand, we work with some factories in Indonesia with Korean mangerial personnel. I go there mostly once a year – because the quality control there is PERFECT. They do nice things and they do them on time. I have almost no problems with them. The only question is money – it is a little bit more expensive there.

BigCAD

+1 Amen to that brother.

Well Mr supplier, I see you have taken my reddot award winning product and made some alterations to the overall the design; obviously as you are wearing an ill fitting Hugo Boss suit and have a BMW key hanging from a chain on your pocket, you are a man of great style and taste; so your changes to my lowly design can only be in my best interests and not that your CAD monkey couldn’t work the 3D program properly, you didn’t know how to make it, you wanted to save on material or you bribed my QC department. Pass the Maotai i’m going to need it.

Quinon

So I don’t know what to say except: who do you work for, who are your suppliers, and how did you find them?

The only scenario I can see this taking place in is if you–“both” of you?–are part of a two-bit operation and have left your China footwork to one of those foreign-run “consulting firms” that exist only to fleece people trying to work in China (perhaps you refuse to hire Chinese assistance in locating suppliers?). Or, you (or more likely, superiors at your company) bargained for sweatshop production at sweatshop prices–in which case, shame on you for perpetuating substandard labor conditions in China. And don’t start with that ignorance nonsense of “they’re doing it to themselves”; it will just make you look terribly uninformed.

Any producer that commands a serious level of business can bargain for what they want. Any individual with a decent level of experience can help a business bargain for what it wants. It happens every day, from niche, low-margin markets like board games to exacting high-tech products like consumer electronics. Miscommunication is a problem. Labor abuse is a problem. Straight up consistent malfeasance is not, especially when it produces results outside of reasonable margins of error.

Then again, from the sounds of things, Kilkenny, your job relies on there being a sufficient level of error to justify your inspections. Perhaps this is why you are so adamant that these are unavoidable?

Kilkenny

Quinon, I am not sure what is you business in China. Maybe you can afford higher FOB prices for USA market, maybe you unaware of the problems that we have in Eastern Europe with taxation, customs, crediting and banking system. It’s to hard to explain it to you at once, as far as I suppose you were lucky enough to be born in more developed country than Poland or Belarus. But the fact is that your reference to “sweatshop production at sweatshop prices” is unacceptable. I am not the fucken Red Cross employee, who does charity, so I ask my partners: “Does this price, that we can afford, suit you or not? Could you achieve this quality with that price?” I am not pushing him to the wall and asking to make a Ferrari for 3,99 usd. I am not pursuing the aim to make money on his losses, I want him to gain smth from our cooperation. But we are making business and in case I can’t afford his prices I’ll move to India or Banglasdesh or whatsoever. First thing, I need to sell this stuff back home. I can’t do it if my competitors buy it cheaper here. So my possibilities to influence it with a coin are limeted. Moreover, that is not the best way to influence your supplier. It doesn’t matter how much you’ll pay actually, Chinese would always try to minimize the costs by moving the production to cheaper enterprises or buying cheaper materials if you won’t control them. As some of the guys here mention, he may believe this is wrong, but unless he is caught and “lost his face” he could live up to it.
And as long as I feel, that he gifts me maotai bottles for 500 bucks and rensheng roots for thousands every time I come, I do think he benefits from our cooperation.

“Any producer that commands a serious level of business can bargain for what they want.”

No, you can’t as long you are in China. Like me, I solved most of the production problems and problems with the delivery terms, but quality and factory locations are still a thorn in my ass if you just letting them be. I told you, that working with Koreans is another matter and they do their job fine from the very beginning. But working in China is a constant battle for your interests and your profits are dependant on your efforts to be ahead in it.
And I feel not ashamed even if sometimes we do have sweatshop production at sweatshop prices and I dare to ask for quality. It’s not me who calls the factories to beg them to make my orders – it’s them who do that. I have relations with 15 factories and I can decide where we should produce our goods taking in consideration past successes and losses. It’s not me who swearing the goods would be made in 45 days, and they would be better than Swiss watches. And it’s not me, who says two days prior to estimated dispatch that: “Sorry, we need more time, that’s harvest season coming earlier this year or all ships are gone, and there is no space on them, that’s wild pandas blocked the highway” and other pathetic lies like that. So why should I care? I paid the money to recieve what I wish and if you can’t keep your words you should take full responsibility for doing that.
My dear friend, I really doubt you ever worked with China before.

The Enlightened One

I have to agree with Kilkenny on this one.

I am starting up a small business and interviewed quite a few people personally.

Dealing with Chinese in business can be very difficult in any area.
While I was starting my interview process, the candidates arrived poorly prepared.

Most of them showed up in casual clothes while demanding a much higher than average salary for the locale. They had little skills, little proof (design field, so required a portfolio) and without much experience. It felt like many of them were trying to hustle me in the interview. Some of them being only like 20 years old telling me they were paid 6000 RMB per month in a Tier 3 city in a job where most get paid 1500-2000RMB.

You should expect that they will try to take you for a ride.

Kilkenny is right, close inspection and strict control is necessary to keep certain people in line. You will regret it and come up short if you don’t.

BigCAD

Jeez you obviously haven’t been on the front line. Fortunately I’m a design engineer bro, not QC if I did QC i’d have become an hero by now.

Did you go to the China of gumdrop smiles and chocolate fountains, where specifications are met and things delivered on time…ah you must have China confused with Taiwan. Because the China I know has no problem in crashing bullet trains in to each other or poisoning milk :-). Enjoy your bubble.

BigCAD

@ The Enlightened One

Do you need a reputable designer on the mainland and if so in what field? Not in the mainland myself but maybe able to throw some contacts your way.

Quinon

@ Kilkenny

Perhaps we have just had drastically different experiences. My understanding is that Chinese suppliers are well aware that you can take your business elsewhere. I don’t know if you have problems because you deal in low-volume and low-margin products, or if you are just setting the price point too low. The Chinese make consumer electronics to spec at a reasonable defect rate, and this includes extremely detailed products like cameras and smartphones. I don’t know why they seem to be unable manufacture your plush toys correctly. But if you really are picking them up at bargain-basement prices, I would caution you against extrapolating from those types of sweatshops to Chinese manufacturing as a whole.

You doubt that I work in the China you know , I doubt that you work in the China I know. Perhaps we just work at different ends of the spectrum, or your management just operates under a different production philosophy.

I have to wonder, though – wouldn’t it just be cheaper to get a reliable producer (I guarantee those exist in China) and no longer need to send you out to China all the time?

@The Enlightened One

You said that you are “starting up a business.” Is this your first time at the rodeo? Because nothing attracts the sharks like an administratively blindfolded laowai who is handing out cash.

If you don’t mind my asking, how did you find these candidates?

@BigCAD

“Bro,” I don’t even know what kind of a point you are trying to make. I agree that China has plenty of problems, but that doesn’t mean that everyone in China is evil, stupid, or incompetent, “bro.” Things are made in China because China does a good job making things in volumes and at prices that producers can accept, “bro.”

Anyway, “bro,” why don’t you chill out and stop making yourself look like an idiot, “bro.”

Quinon

On that note, this is all a bit off topic. Kilkenny’s point is that there would be no quality in China without westerners. Kilkenny is talking about QC in sweatshop conditions, which are the absolute worst in quality control to begin with. Plenty of Chinese manufacturers deliver enormous volumes to spec at acceptable levels of error.

What is actually sad is that Chinese _consumers_ have a much higher tolerance for poorly manufactured products in China than consumers do abroad. This means that you can buy the same product in China and abroad (sometimes actually at comparable prices, depending on the product in question), and the Chinese one will be of far worse quality. This has nothing to do with producers and everything to do with consumer demand and tolerance.

So my real point still stands, Kilkenny: if you want to GTFO, go ahead. The Chinese don’t need you there to help them produce at spec when the price is competitive. You are probably right in that these sweatshops that you work with would close down if you and your company left, because nobody would buy their products. In my mind, that is a good thing for everybody but the greedy SOB that runs the sweatshop.

BigCAD

Cool story “bro”, I like the China you live in, does Pudong look nice and shiny from inside you car? How do the mojitos taste? Got some Chinese ‘friends’ yet?

On the point “China has plenty of problems, but that doesn’t mean that everyone in China is evil, stupid, or incompetent” Agreed, just most, only solution GTFO to Taiwan.

Well, yes Chinese products in general are definitely not good whatsoever, so it is not news there. As for whether or not most Chinese are competent, a lot of them are not. As for whether they are stupid or not, you have some smart ones, but also quite a few dumb ones. But I wouldn’t call most Chinese evil though, that’s too strong of a word to use, in my opinion.

Lakeman

I forgot to add, I think with proper training and teaching, many of these people can become much better than what they are now and what they’ve been in the past. There are still many morally good Chinese out there, and many of them have the abilities to do good things, and they are also willing to do good things. You just have to find them and train them properly for the job they’ll be doing.

Foreign Devil

Bingo! The Korean and Indonesian results are better because it is MORE EXPENSIVE. If you pay your Chinese workers a living wage the quality will improve there to. You always get what you pay for, so stop being so cheap.

donscarletti

Dumbarses the world over call for similar things. Though it’s hard to argue for a total immigration ban in any country, simply because one must replace the young, smart, motivated and adventurous people that countries inevitably themselves lose through emigration.

The amazing thing is just that China is a country with 1.3 billion people and there are maybe a couple of million non-Chinese all up, if that, whereas the rest of the world has whole neighbourhoods that are made up of immigrants and new visible minorities that appear almost overnight due to a refugee situation on the other side of the world. You would think that China might be the one place on earth that it would not be an issue in popular consciousness, but it still is an issue.

Quinon

I’m a bit confused on what your take on the issue is. But I’ll just point out that with 1.3 billion people, there is a significantly increased likelihood that there are “dumber arses” who take more extreme and outrageous positions and who will occur in sufficient concentrations to make it seem like they represent some significant portion of the population.

Asshats are a naturally occurring feature of any population. While I don’t support their positions, neither do I think an entire population should be condemned for them–which is what it sounded like Kilkenny was trying to say.

Peye

Get along people. What is it with all the name calling and hatred. Nobody knows what kind of situation he/she will face in the next hours or tomorrow. Should have,could have,would have done this or that. Wait till reallity knocks on your door.

C

I feel like they’re insincere. They had to gave the government search for them and they didn’t even meet the hero’s family privately to clear things up and provide closure. Things cannot be solved by simply kotowing once and handing some money.

But I understand – they fear retribution. If people found out who they were, they would be harassed, even killed. But this avoidance only adds to the problem more

BlackDynamiteMC

I agree with your first paragraph but definitely disagree with your second. Yes, there has been a lot of outrage from Chinese online but lest you not forget that a common care and regard for “common” man doesn’t really exist here in China. People will post comments and share videos but nobody will willingly throw themselves into the fray because they fear the repercussions. You see it everyday in the most common situations. I think if the family’s whereabouts were made known you MIGHT get a crowd there yelling obscenities at them but nothing more.

david

how pathetic. I serious think these people need a labotomy. Each and everyone of them.

uhh, the last time I had trouble and someone helped me, i did not leave them there to face the trouble themselves.

this person and his family have 0% face. and personally hope they go swimming again. and see if anyone helps them again….the little boy who cried wolf.

redgirl

Seriously? Way to hijack a topic.
Its Not Fkin about you.

redgirl

@Kilkenny++

Freak on a Mountain

How did this get so off topic? The article was about how the reprobate fuckwit family who was saved by brave Mr. Deng finally got their balls beat badly enough by the police that they attempted to do something halfway decent, but kinda failed.

The comment board here turned into ranting about Chinese nationalism. Now, it’s not easy being an expat anywhere in the world, and the heat has certainly been turned up on laowais in recent weeks. But what does that have to do with the article?

Instead, we should be discussing the actions of the family and the police. Were they coerced into apologizing? Were the police there for their protection, or just to make sure they didn’t f*ck up again? How do the Dengs feel about their compensation? These are interesting questions.

Boring questions are along the lines of: “If you criticize China so much, why are you still here?” Indeed, if you love someone/something passionately, you should criticize him/her/it, but rants are not constructive. And yes indeed, if you hate China and Chinese so much for the problems here, go back home. Back home for me involves meth dealers blowing themselves and their neighbors up accidentally, gun robberies, idiot warmongering, and the most boring sport in the world besides cricket (baseball). I don’t have to put up with that crap over here, so I like it.

But still, it’s ok to say that there are way too many people defecating in the streets, and the pollution is truly awful, because it’s true. It’s just not racist.

The Enlightened One

Yeah, I was wondering how much money they compensated they family with…

I don’t know, but to me that would be kind of insulting. It sort of dishonors his memory by suggesting his life have value of the mere content in the envelope or that is actions were a paid service.

I wouldn’t accept it. I know this is China and all, but to me that is putting a price on this person’s life when this individual was obviously priceless.

Yeah, it always surprises me how things have a price. Dowry would be one example…like, hey, let me buy your daughter from you. Maybe even haggle over the price. Or in this case death – sorry about your son…this should make up for it. I remember that in the Czech republic it’s law (or at least I was told this) that if you return lost money or things to someone, they have to give you 15% of the value.

Freak on a Mountain

I agree with you. If someone lost their life saving my family and myself, I would first use all my savings to build a statue of the hero, and then inform my children that they have to treat all the people of the hero’s family the same way they would their own grandparents.

bscalled

i have no respect for this ungrateful, family – it’s too late to apologize.

Spod

I lived in China for 7 years – it was amazing, shocking, awe inspiring, depressing heart breaking. I enjoy reading the posts of people that have lived there and feel their frustration trying to describe their love and dread for the place at the same time. If you have never been there you have a “nerve” lecturing others about their experiences – you simply do not know what you are talking about. When there we all experience/d “bad expat days” usually these leave us feeling introspective and sometimes ashamed of our own behavior – but everyone understands and your friends do not judge you by them. Expats that want to be positive and effective are often the most disillusioned at times. I met some of the worst people there of all brands – and some of the best ever in my entire life.

Jerry

interesting. evil is everywhere. we should fight it. The good thing is that they came to their sense. the bad is that what has happen has already happen. hope society learn from this story

terroir

This must be the blandest comment on this site. I can’t tell if you’re commenting upon the relevant story or upon “Episode I: The Phantom Menace”.

And to that end: why can’t we learn from young Anakin Skywalker? He has so much to offer before he goes nuts and kills those younglings.

moop

Jake Lloyd has much he could teach us about acting

terroir

as “evil is everywhere” and “we must fight it”, so did the erstwhile Jake Lloyd do battle with evil by participating in an exciting pod race that did nothing to propel the exposition forward.

“the bad is that what has happen has already happen.” So true: but in the case of the three star wars prequels, what can be summed up in two paragraphs by Alec Guinness requires the man behind the curtain to be exposed, a ton of green scenes and the worst use of a repeated line over six movies.

“The good thing is that they came to their sense.” Fo sho. It’s a good thing franchise favorites Artoo Detoo and Yoda went from puppets to ass-kicking instruments of death. It’s so obvious, it’s like taking that internet test that goes “1, 1, 3, 5…”

“hope society learn from this story”. I hope so too. Never ever set up your hero to rescue the girl that he kisses in the first movie by making the two of them sisters. That’s three long years in-between of nothing but slash fiction, folks. And this was before the internet existed.

moop

i guess the real question is where does jarjar binks fit into this?

terroir

Isn’t Jarjar the one who forwarded the motion to dissolve the Galactic Senate, thus setting into play the dreaded Act 666 or whatever? (I’m geeky, but not that geeky)

That means Jarjar is the one responsible for causing the great purge of Jedi culture. 1960’s, was it?

mr. wiener

Don’t get Nanny Hiccups started about the Gungans….sho ’nuff.

moop

“That means Jarjar is the one responsible for causing the great purge of Jedi culture. 1960′s, was it?”

absolutely and the republic plunged into chaos until they froze him in carbonite and put him on display for all to see

BuddyLee

I wonder if Heroman Deng would still save this worthless family if he had known the outcome would be this way? If I was him and saw them splashing in the waters, I would find a soft patch of grass to sit on with a a nice view of them splashing around, light my cig, inhale slowly then exhale, and smile while patting my dog’s head saying: ” look someone drowning boy,” “should we go help them boy?” “Woof, Woof!” Barked the dog. “I hear ya boy, I should call for help,” I replied. “Woof!” Barked the dog again. “You are right, I should wait until 7pm when I can called anyone for free instead of getting charged 5 cent a minute.”

vincent

they waited so long to come and apologize.
Then they dare pop up during the funeral escorted by the police? wth?!
If that was me i would have litterally kicked them out;
what an ugly way to add (again) insult to injury.

terroir

Just wanted to offer a comment upon the new backwards commenting system:

it’s great, like Mountain Dew. It’s like Memento, but with flame wars: you already know who’s mad at who, but going backwards you don’t find out “what”, but “why”.

Quite an overkill to get rid of 沙发 (whatever happened to “Yo ancestors are so…” insults?), but the rage still seems equally incomprehensible as before.

elizabeth

I prefer the previous sequence. Easier to follow the threads, plus it won’t be fun to read the book once you know the ending.

terroir

But endings have a conclusions, and light of all the information one could ever want, the internet only has rage.

And cats. Let’s not forget cats.

China Smacked

I don’t think we have the full details of what actually happened.
I’m trying to work out, but not saying it is impossible, how could one person rescue three people get them to dry land (with or without help) and yet drown themselves.
Maybe it was the other two who rescued the family and the one who died was intending to help.
Which is still just as brave of an act and my condolences to him and his family.

梦想家 Dreamer

Terrible tragedy. A rescuer’s death is a big loss for all of us.

Jin

The police should make this family pay by giving 50% of all their wealth to the family of this hero. He is truly a special person and did not deserve death for saving lives (specially lives of vermin’s like this family).

Sincere and heart felt condolences to his family the pain and heart break on his mother face following his casket brings tears to your eyes.

I know this is an old entry, but still a very sad story. It does speak to a huge problem in Chinese society these days. Though I am not sure whether this is the best ending. Hard to say. Yeah, I pray that the good samaritan’s family would be able to live in peace from now on. Definitely a tragedy.

Also, a point about the debate earlier on modern China (opium wars, technology, jursdiction and international waters). These are complicated issues, many of which are related to culture clashes. So it is not easy to give a perfect answer, especailly on a internet message board. Just saying.

Peace.

Twind

A correction to my earlier post:

Should have written “international waters…etc.”

And “especially” instead of “especailly”.

Twind

In the post above, it should have been “I should have written…”. I also want to say that for both posts above this particular post, they have not been very well written. Therefore, please excuse any kind of bad writing in these posts or in any other post in this thread, including this very post.

Peace.

john

At least this story has a somewhat okay ending, unlike the many other stories we have seen in China. By the way, earlier there was this huge discussion on issues related to the closing and opening up of modern China. I think China’s government’s policies of both the Qing and the CCP, culture clashes…etc. are all factors (arrogance could also have played a role). Anyway, after 1978, it was not just Westerners who came to China, but many other Asians (including a huge number of Taiwanese) who helped to build China’s economy. I guess that’s why we are still getting pretty good salaries here due to our experience and skills. But things might be changing soon, who knows.

john

I just realized modern China actually went from a semi-closed society in the Qing to a pretty open society when ROC was still ruling the mainland to a very closed society under the CCP and managed to open up again after 1978. Interesting!

david

You are right. China went through quite a bit of transition in the modern period. There are indeed many factors that influenced the different decisions made by the governments of China, be it the Qing, ROC, or the PRC. Things can be quite complicated. No single factor is good at explaining the fate of Modern China up to this point.

john

Yeah, there is also a matter of China and the West having different worldviews, a clash of different values back at that time, and still do to some extent.

john

To add, there were also a lot of misunderstandings between all sides (still are). Btw, it should be “things happened” in the post below.

john

To add, yes no single factor can explain everything, on why certain things happen the way they did. This is true of China’s past, present, and future.

This is a good intro for people who want to know more about whether China is a closed society or not in the past. The author provides a broad coverage of Chinese history from the earlier times to the modern period. She manages to dispute many old stereotypes in the West about Chinese Civilization. Suffice to say China during the Tang Dynasty was probably the most open society in the world at that time. In addition, I don’t think all societies are going to develop the same way as the West. Some places are just going to be different than the West, so perhaps we shouldn’t try to compare histories and cultures by using the same standard.

As for the question of self-reflection among the Chinese people. Sure most of them have a herd mentality (true in many other places as well). However, there are definitely a small group of people, mostly intellectuals who are very capable of reflecting on China’s present and her past. They are also concerned about China’s future. Such Chinese do exist, you know.

david

And openness is a relative term…

david

On second thought, openness is indeed a relative concept, yeah.

david

Yeah, it seems among outsiders the groups that played the greatest role in developing the mainland’s economy are the Taiwanese and other Chinese people from Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, and overseas. This has been pretty much the case since 1978 onward.

john

David,

And one should also avoid generalizations whatever possible… This is true on just about anything out there.

john

Sorry, the above comment wasn’t directed at you. I was simply making a general statement. Yeah, we should all try to avoid generalizations and stereotypes whenever and wherever possible. Thanks.

john

Oh, I hope I wasn’t making generalizations either with my above post. I guess my point is that while generalizations have their uses, most of the time it’s not the best way of looking at things. Of course, from time to time, some generalizations are needed and perhaps necessary. However, I think if one can be more detailed and specific with one’s observation and analysis of things, one will have a better chance at making the best judgment possible. This is probably true for most of the things out there.

john

Wrote too fast, should be: “in my previous post”.

John

Having read through several of my posts from above again, I think I might need to make some revisions, for some of my points seem unclear.

In addition to my point that different worldviews played a huge role in the clashing between foreign powers and China during the opium wars period, arrogance on both sides was also a factor. Prior to the 1st opium war, I don’t think it was just the Qing who disrespected England, I believe it went both ways (If China did not want to do massive trading with others, than she should have been left alone. But clearly, that’s not what happened, she was forced to do things not to her liking). However, because of the problem of different worldviews, it is therefore less meaningful to argue who was more willing to treat the other party more equally or not. The same is true with the issue whether China should have opened up more or not. There was simply little commonality between China and the West in their views of the world back in the 19th century. Miscommunications between China and other foreign/Western powers continued throughout the 19th century due to conflicting worldviews and cultural values, but gradually, China learned to accept Western standards (I am not sure if she will ever accept Western standards 100%, if not, it’s only normal). Yes, throughout the entire opium conflict (the wars and the trade) the Chinese were not perfect and did not handle the situation in the best way possible. But I believe the point that foreigners/Westerners dictating the entire opium conflict is still correct. China was not in the best position to really control the situation, and her decision to ban and to legalize opium was mostly a reaction to the actions of foreign/Western powers. This then had a lot to do with the level of opium production in China. As for China invading other places before modern Western imperialism, I really don’t think China’s conquests were on par with their modern Western counterparts in terms of the influences their actions had on the modern world. The nature of the conquests from the two sides were also not the same. Anyway, as I have said already, China’s encounter with modernity, including her willingness to open up and engage with it, is a big and complicated topic. Moreover, China is still changing, and has been through some radical changes for a while now. Therefore it’s really hard to explain the whole situation succinctly. One can really write several books about it. I guess I am just offering what I think is a good and short explanation of this topic. Nothing definitive about my explanation though.

John

Regarding my final sentence from the post above, instead of “Nothing definitive about my explanation though”, it should have been “I am not claiming that I have given the definitive explanation to this topic, but I think I have made some good points here regarding this topic”. The rest of what I wrote in the post above remains the same and does not need to be changed at this moment.

John

I just realized that I should have used more paragraphs in one of the earlier posts I wrote today (the long one). Yeah, I guess the post should have been better written and organized. But I think the analysis and information in the post itself is still good and need no change at this point.

Twind

John,

I agree with the suggestion that many of China’s past and current problems dealing with the West have much to do with culture clashes. The different worldviews, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries between China and the West also did not help. I think this was the key as to why the Qing and England had trouble communicating with each other back in the 18th and 19th centuries. I must say, I think China’s worldview was different from the worldview of the West even before the 18th and 19th centuries. I am not sure if the two worldviews have ever been the same. Even today, I am not sure if China shares exactly the same worldview as the Western world. I am interested to see how this entire interaction between China and the West will develop in the future.

By the way, I know China has a lot of diversity within herself, and the West is far from a single, monolithic entity. Therefore, to quote you from another post in another thread, “I am only making a general observation here regarding Europe and China”. In addition, I am sure there have been friendly interactions between China and the West based on mutual understandings in the past. The same is true of now, and hopefully, in the future as well. Therefore, I am not saying that good communication between the two sides has never taken place in the past. I hope good communication based on mutual understandings will continue to take place in the present, which is going all right at this moment, and in the future.

Finally, as with all of my posts, I apologize for any possible bad writing in this post here and in my other posts elsewhere.

Twind

John,

Here is my revised post. I am responding to you again.

I believe many of China’s past and current problems in dealing with the West have much to do with culture clashes. The different worldviews, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries between China and the West were also a major problem. I think this was the key as to why the Qing and England had trouble communicating with each other back in the 18th and 19th centuries. Both sides simply had different concepts about many things out there, such as the concept of international waters (Though I am not totally sure, as a concept, if it has already been firmly established in the West in the late 18th, early 19th centuries or not). I must say, I think China’s worldview was different from the worldview of the West even before the 18th and 19th centuries. I am not sure if the two worldviews have ever been the same. Even today, I am not sure if China shares exactly the same worldview as the Western world. I am interested to see how this entire interaction between China and the West will develop in the future.

I know China has a lot of diversity within herself, and the West is far from a single, monolithic entity. Therefore, I am only making a general observation here regarding the West and China. I am not saying that there were absolutely no similarities between the West and China in the past. For a while now, since the 19th century, China has become more similar to the West. But even now, there are still some differences between the two sides, and I doubt they will ever be the same. In addition, for most of their respective histories, there were more differences than similarities.

Both China and the West have also gone through many different phases in their histories, with a lot of changes throughout time. This also includes changes in geographical locations and territorial boundaries. Therefore, I am simply making a general observation here. I am not giving a detailed analysis of China and the West.

In addition, I am sure there have been friendly interactions between China and the West based on mutual understandings in the past. The same is true of now, and hopefully, in the future as well. Therefore, I am not saying that good communication between the two sides has never taken place in the past. I hope good communication based on mutual understandings will continue to take place in the present, which is going all right at this moment, and in the future.

Lastly, as with all of my posts, please excuse my poor writing skills displayed in this post and in other posts in this thread.

Lakeman

Allow me to comment on this old story again. I recall reading about the same topic that has been discussed here from another story: the issue of self-reflection in China, which I suppose is related to this story. This incident right here is certainly sad. But as I wrote in another post from another thread, I believe there is a group of Chinese who are more willing to reflect more critically about the past, present and future of China. They are also more capable of reflecting on their own problems as well. Certainly blaming others is a big problem in China, but hopefully, more people in China will learn to overcome that problem soon. I guess most people more or less have this problem of blaming others as well, so I suppose we can all try to overcome it. Of course, there are times when blaming others is not exactly a bad idea. :-)

Lakeman

Ooops! I made 2 mistakes in my previous post. It should’ve been, “I know there is a group of Chinese who are more willing to reflect more critically…”. And “Certainly blaming others can be a big problem in China,”. I think these 2 things are all I need to change at this moment, the rest of my previous post shall remain the same.

Lakeman

Just to add 1 more thing: The people I talked about in my previous posts, the group of Chinese who are able to self-reflect on issues related to themselves and to China/Chinese in the past, present, and future, many of these people are also doing actual things to try to make China a better place for all (yes, I personally know some of these people). While there are certainly many Chinese out there who are not interested in fulfilling their social duties and responsibilities and doing good things for others, the people I am talking about do want to fulfill their social duties and responsibilities and do good things for others. They want to pursue justice and have a more just society and a better China. Let’s hope these Chinese who are self-reflective will keep doing things to produce good results for themselves, the Chinese people, China and other related entities, such as the rest of the world.

Lakeman

One more thing to add to my previous post: Mind you, these Chinese who are self-reflective that I have been talking about have been thinking and trying to do things to help China, the Chinese people, and themselves for a while now. They didn’t just start their work recently. You might not have seen them all the time, but they are there, and have been there for some time now.

Also, from my previous post, “China/Chinese” should’ve been “China and the Chinese”.

Lakeman

From my previous post, instead of, “I have been talking about have been thinking and trying to do things to help China, the Chinese people, and themselves for a while now”, it should’ve been “I have been talking about have been thinking and doing things to help China, the Chinese people, and themselves for a while now.” This is the only change I will make at this moment. The rest of my previous posts shall remain the same.

Deng Jinjie sacrificed his life (an unselfish loving act), that those four he saved might live their lives serving others in need with the love Deng Jinjie showed them. That sacrificial kind of love will grow a society who truly cares and serves one another without expectations in return.