Thanks to all the disinformation that comes out in the Chi-Com press and schools, the Chinese think Bush is the King Of Norway._________________"Park the beers, and grab the smiles. It's flight time." - LtCdr. J. Robert "Bobby" Stone, USN (R.I.P.)

No way, he thinks he's the King of Norway. He's Matt Dillon, U.S. marshal; the first they look for and the last they want to meet. The other day, at a cabinet meeting, he turned to Cheney and called him "Chester" (could have been worse, he could have called him "Festus", instead), and then he called Condi Rice "Miss Kitty"_________________"Park the beers, and grab the smiles. It's flight time." - LtCdr. J. Robert "Bobby" Stone, USN (R.I.P.)

Maybe if you were in the P.R.C., and insulted the "Glorious Chairman", you'd get thrown in the "Gulag." Here in the good old USA, we got freedom of speech, even for all you libs and traitors out there (I won't point fingers, you all know you are) . So all that would happen to you is maybe you'd have your phone tapped.

I've never figured out China. They consider the US the nasty viking, but it's ok to take over Tibet, and keep trying to take back Taiwan. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. At least if we keep them so busy filling our Wal-marts with plastic stuff they wont look for any other countries to "reclaim" ._________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

One Chinese historian once said that the history of China is one of social cannibalism, with the ruling classes feeding off of the lower ones. Many a bright mind in China has been squashed by those trying to uphold the status quo over the many centuries...from the first Ching Empororer all the way up to the present regime.

Well, most contries have had their class struggles, this is true. However, Imperial China had a rigid class system with absolutley no upward mobility. This is the reason, that depite the fact the Chinese invented things like gunpowder, block printing, etc., you did not have the industrial advances that you had in the West. With no incentive to advance your status, there is no impetus for "building-the-better-moustrap" Thus, the Chinese rarely found practical uses for these advances; they remained little more than curiosities.

There was a time when the Chinese were far more advanced than the West. However, because of the desire of the ruling classes to maintain the staus-quo, China stagnated for centuries, and eventually was surpassed by the West. It is only now that the Chinese are finally catching up to us. Sort of sad, when you think about it.

Of course, the saddest thing is, despite the recent turn towards capitalism, the Chinese people, for the most part, are still living "under the whip." And obviously, they are still being brainwashed to hate America and the West._________________"Park the beers, and grab the smiles. It's flight time." - LtCdr. J. Robert "Bobby" Stone, USN (R.I.P.)

Well, most contries have had their class struggles, this is true. However, Imperial China had a rigid class system with absolutley no upward mobility.

without commenting on china's modern situation, for calssical china this is wrong. the chinese ruling class was made up of those who survived a 14 jear long education and managed to pass the final exams. it was a duty of loca rulers to pick out the brightest boys in his areas and send them to these schools on state funding. whereas european ruling classes at that time were ruling by birth, the chinese system had a certain selection. of course rich people could rather afford to send their children to these schools, but there is alot of cases where the children of the members of the ruling class did not pass the exams and therefor had to leave the ruling cass and become traders et al. some of the most famous changes in dynasty were done by people who actually did not pass the final exams.

the probem of the chinese system of that time is difficult to explain.

1. the education system did not fancy any technical education and technical inventions were usually not used to do things better or faster but for cult and or fun. one example is the gun powder. another is that there were temples lighted by natural gas which was transported with bamboo pipelines as early as (i think it was) 800. it is similar in this way to old greece. as soon as the west used technology to make things cheaper, china had to fall back.

2. china was big and as long the population was not growing fast they had everything they needed themselves. that's why (i think it was) in the 15th century one emperor dicided to ban al over sea trade. chinese vessels had gone as far as eastern africa before and participated strongy in international trade. when the europeans decided to go around africa to get trade in their own hands, the chines had just left and therefor produced a vacuum the europeans could easily fill.

3. connected to the above mentioned point is, that the chinese took very long until they really understood the european imperialists could be a threat to them. when they finally realised, it was already to late to do anything about it.

Of course, the saddest thing is, despite the recent turn towards capitalism, the Chinese people, for the most part, are still living "under the whip." And obviously, they are still being brainwashed to hate America and the West.

i think you should finally understand, that al of us are brainwashed in a way or the other and that there is always another way to look at certain things. and i woudn't even think, that the chinese particularily hate america. of course china has it's own intrests, which are not the same as the one of the states. but following your own intrests is about the only way you can summarize american politics in one sentence. (and yes, we europeans do aswell and i guess, that's just the natural way the game goes)

I'm a little confused by you're statement about exams, Kaos. Are you saying the you had to take a test to be Emporer, or just to be a "civil servant". I've read about Chinese civil service exams before, but I always though the position of Emporer was hereditary. I also thought there was a landed aristocracy, which was also hereditary. And could a lowly peasant take a civil service exam? And aren't there stories of Emporers putting scholars to the sword?

I must admit, much of my knowlege of Imperial Chinese history dates back to what I learned in High School. One year I had a Social Studies teacher (good ol' Mrs, Gertz) who devoted almost an entire semester to the study of China. Some of it was pretty facinating, and I did learn a lot, but my memory fails me sometimes, since it was so long ago. (Showin' my age)

As for brainwashing, that might be too strong a word to apply to the current Chinese regime. However, the word applies perfectly to the "re-education" many had to go through during Mao's Cultural Revolution. Unfortunatly, the influence of Mao's legacy still exists.

I think China holds much promise, but I don't think that promise will be fully realized until they go democratic. Until then, China remains a powerfull potential enemy of the United States. The prospect of war with China, in the future, doesn't exactly give me any comfort. I'm not sure if we would win._________________"Park the beers, and grab the smiles. It's flight time." - LtCdr. J. Robert "Bobby" Stone, USN (R.I.P.)

i think you should finally understand, that al of us are brainwashed in a way or the other and that there is always another way to look at certain things. and i woudn't even think, that the chinese particularily hate america. of course china has it's own intrests, which are not the same as the one of the states. but following your own intrests is about the only way you can summarize american politics in one sentence. (and yes, we europeans do aswell and i guess, that's just the natural way the game goes)

I find myself thinking about politics and all the things I was told are true, how much of them are "American" truth, and how much of them are "Universally" true? Sure, my parents had to program me to understand the world they brought me into, but how much of that really applies worldwide and what is just my redneck-white-sock-wonder-bread-lower-middle-class viewpoint?_________________"I would rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life on my knees"-Emiliano Zapata

I'm a little confused by you're statement about exams, Kaos. Are you saying the you had to take a test to be Emporer, or just to be a "civil servant". I've read about Chinese civil service exams before, but I always though the position of Emporer was hereditary. I also thought there was a landed aristocracy, which was also hereditary. And could a lowly peasant take a civil service exam? And aren't there stories of Emporers putting scholars to the sword?

I must admit, much of my knowlege of Imperial Chinese history dates back to what I learned in High School. One year I had a Social Studies teacher (good ol' Mrs, Gertz) who devoted almost an entire semester to the study of China. Some of it was pretty facinating, and I did learn a lot, but my memory fails me sometimes, since it was so long ago. (Showin' my age)

As for brainwashing, that might be too strong a word to apply to the current Chinese regime. However, the word applies perfectly to the "re-education" many had to go through during Mao's Cultural Revolution. Unfortunatly, the influence of Mao's legacy still exists.

I think China holds much promise, but I don't think that promise will be fully realized until they go democratic. Until then, China remains a powerfull potential enemy of the United States. The prospect of war with China, in the future, doesn't exactly give me any comfort. I'm not sure if we would win.

i did a one-year japan and china course at high school. so i'm not an expert myself either. and yes, my memory also fails me. but on the point of he emperor you're right. and killing people, yes that's right as well, but killing people was a normal way to do politics until the modern age.

>And could a lowly peasant take a civil service exam?

but here it's yes. or at least... more or less.

you had to do a long schooling. but being a son of a lowly peasent you could still be picked to be send to these schools. the social mobility refers only to an early age. but it existed. my point is rather, that this social mobility you have here, you never found in europe in the middle ages. as far as i remember there was no big aristocracy being hereditary. higher posts of the aristocray were appointed by the emperor to any he wanted to chose from those who passed the mentioned exams.

and just one remark on modern china. also there is multiple view points. if you're in the party you do have a certain limited influence and china is the country with the highest participation in parties. i wouldn't call china democratic, but the word democracy is treacherous. it always suggests that there is only black and white. but there are shades and every system and realisation of it has to b evaluated seperately.

is switzerland more or less democratic than the US?
is india more or less democratic than russia?
is either of them to be considered as democratic?