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Topic: Aionios: Let's clear the water (Read 61020 times)

Apocatastasis

The late and great Greek scholar and Universalist, William Barclay, understood aionios to be the word of eternity in the sense of timelessness. Wrote Barclay, in his New Testament Words:

"The essence of the word aionios is that it is the word of the eternal order as contrasted with the order of this world; it is the word of deity as contrasted with humanity; essentially it is the word which can be properly applied to no one other than God. Aionios is the word which describes nothing less and nothing more than the life of God."

Doesn't this make good sense in light of the many verses which contrast things aeonian (the Anglicized form of aionios) with the perishable things of this passing world?

Let's examine some passages in light of what Barclay notes above.

"For we know that if the tent, which is our earthly home, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, aeonian in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1

Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption.

"...because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are aeonian." - 2 Corinthians 4:18

In this verse, aionios describes that which human eyes have not seen, and ears have not heard, because they belong to the unseen realm of God.

"Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to aeonian life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal." - John 6:27

Aionios here refers to that heavenly life which does not fade nor falter: It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam.

This life that Christ gives - the very life of God - is not of this world, but is of the unseen realm of Spirit:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." - John 3:6

Bishop Westcott gave a similar testimony to this mysterious word:

"In spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as 'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure." Indeed, from its inception in Greek literature (Plato - see Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is manifest considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable is manifest.

So then, what do we make of those verses which speak of "eternal destruction" and "eternal punishment"? Is it not that sort of destruction/punishment which originates in the eternal God?

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" - 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9

Here we read that the wicked will be destroyed by Heavenly fire (note that the Greek word apo does not signify that the destruction consists in being away from God, but that the destruction comes from God). "Aeonian destruction", evidently, is nonebut divine destruction, just as "aeonian punishment" is simply that sort of perfect parental punishment which originates in the heavenly Father.

yes, but i don't think so, i've read a similar argument once, ainios when concerning God, godly life, godly people means eternal, but when concerning, ungodly things or people means age-lasting, but i think aionios is just an common adjective to describe matter of times, like latin saecularia or hebrew olam

Apocatastasis

Aionios, being an adjective, does not change meaning. It's duty is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s).

It cannot be greater than the noun from which it is derived.

That your statement is false is obvious when considering the fact that words change meaning over time. For instance, in English, the word gorgeous means "beautiful". However, gorgeous derives from the noun gorge, meaning "throat". By Tony's logic, when I tell my wife she is gorgeous, I really mean that she is "throaty".

Besides, aionios first appears in Plato's writings, where he clearly uses it in reference to timeless eternity.

Aionios, being an adjective, does not change meaning. It's duty is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s).

It cannot be greater than the noun from which it is derived.

That your statement is false is obvious when considering the fact that words change meaning over time. For instance, in English, the word gorgeous means "beautiful". However, gorgeous derives from the noun gorge, meaning "throat". By Tony's logic, when I tell my wife she is gorgeous, I really mean that she is "throaty".

Besides, aionios first appears in Plato's writings, where he clearly uses it in reference to timeless eternity.

Just because people TODAY have caused aionios to morph into something altogether different from what which God used in the Bible does not mean that that morphed meaning should be shoved back into the Bible to make aionios mean what God never intended it to mean.

The original meaning of Gorgeous is of French origin (gorrias) and meant "elegant". People wore gorria necklaces around their throat and so they were said to be gorrias or gorgeous. Now it is a faded figure that people themselves are gorgeous due to the quality of their looks just as their necklaces had a beautiful quality about them.

What is the noun of gorrias and how is gorrias greater than that noun?

Plato never used aionias as "timeless eternity." We've been over this time and again.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Apocatastasis

The original meaning of Gorgeous is of French origin (gorrias) and meant "elegant". People wore gorria necklaces around their throat and so they were said to be gorrias or gorgeous. Now it is a faded figure that people themselves are gorgeous due to the quality of their looks just as their necklaces had a beautiful quality about them.

What is the noun of gorrias and how is gorrias greater than that noun?

Gorgeous is a word whose etymology demonstrates how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, though a little more knowledge is often enough to set you right. In this case, the root gorge- suggests "eating" or "devouring", and so a folk etymology is obvious: gorgeous means "edible beauty", that is, something so pretty you are tempted to eat it. But that would be wrong. The fossil record of words makes clear that the ultimate parent of gorgeous is, indeed, the root gorge-, which does not so much mean "eat" as it does "throat" or "narrow channel". But the descent of meaning is something like the following: gorge is taken to denote the throat, and then various things around the throat get similar names. A gorget is a piece of throat armor, and a gorgias was a neckerchief. Then, the use of fancy, colorful neckerchiefs spawned the word gorgayse, meaning "elegant", "dressy", or "showy", and now the final step to gorgeous, meaning "beautiful" or "captivating", is easy to anticipate.

The facts are there for all to see, Tony. Don't try to weasel your way out of this one. Gorgeous derives from the noun gorge, meaning "throat".

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Plato never used aionias as "timeless eternity." We've been over this time and again.

You alone hold this view against all scholarship. Remember when I invited you to join the classical Greek forum? Remember how you tried to retranslate Plato's Timaeus? Let me see if I can dig that up. It was really, really funny. So, Tony, why don't you share with the members here your novel translation of Timaeus 37d?

Paul Hazelwood

Greek words translated to everlasting and forever have possibly an abstract meaning, close to something like "the end is imperceptible" or how it can "seem". They do not conclusively mean literally never ending or without beginning or end.

God is the God of Ages because thats how he is orchestrating things. God alone possesses immortality which I have seen that is where we can conclude that God is eternal.

Besides, aionios first appears in Plato's writings, where he clearly uses it in reference to timeless eternity.

i can't tell if this is true, but as far as I know, many used aidios/aidion to denote eternity, I also have doubts if aionios in the LXX shall mean eternal, eg. Jonah 2,6

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That your statement is false is obvious when considering the fact that words change meaning over time.

the matter is, what had aionios meant in the time when the NT was written?

what about this:

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But writing in the very expressive Greek language, Justinian says, "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless eonian (ateleuteetos aiõnios) life for the just, and endless (ateleuteetos) punishment for the wicked."

2 Peter 1:11 YLT for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:11 KJV For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

age-during and everlasting are translated from the Greek aionios.It's clear the Son doesn't reign forever because the Father takes over the reign.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

just as "aeonian punishment" is simply that sort of perfect parental punishment which originates in the heavenly Father.

Thoughts?

That actually is a great way for things to be. If the factor of Gods correction is always present, then the issue is if we are subjected to that then it is temporary in the respect that it will not take forever to correct us.

I see you have learned nothing whatsoever from the last time we had this conversation. So why do you think you or I will change this time around?

Just because some words morph over time (and they do) does not mean that the morphed meaning of TODAY is the meaning that the words ORIGINALLY meant. Do you understand this?

Also, this is not about morphology. It is about what the meaning of the word was WHEN it was used in the Bible.There is not one place in all the Bible where aion or olam (olam being it's equivalent) were ever used of the sense of eternal. Therefore it is impossible for its adjectival form of aionios/olam to mean eternal, for the adjective in the bible is NEVER greater than the noun from which it is derived. NEVER.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

That your statement is false is obvious when considering the fact that words change meaning over time. For instance, in English, the word gorgeous means "beautiful". However, gorgeous derives from the noun gorge, meaning "throat". By Tony's logic, when I tell my wife she is gorgeous, I really mean that she is "throaty".

A word really does not actually change, the common use of a word may, that does not change the contextual meaning nor an origin of a word.

Hell is not actually originated in the meaning of an eternal torture pit or a state of eternal hopelessness it can be used properly as "conceal or cover". This does not mean trying to use HELL in that context will be readily understood. If the word Hell was used in a document that was written in the 4th century it is not proper that we should now interpret that document based on how it is now most commonly used.

Is this to say that the flintstone cartoon theme song is about homosexuality because they were having a GAY ole time?

Apocatastasis

Just because some words morph over time (and they do) does not mean that the morphed meaning of TODAY is the meaning that the words ORIGINALLY meant. Do you understand this?

Of course I understand this. Just because an adjective is derived from a noun does not mean that the adjective must bear the meaning of the noun. Besides, aionios has been used of eternity from its inception (Plato's Timaeus 37d), as any Greek scholar will attest to. Oh, that's right..... you have your own translation of that passage, don't you? Care to share it with the members here? Don't be coy now.

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Also, this is not about morphology. It is about what the meaning of the word was WHEN it was used in the Bible.

Indeed, so why then do you always resort to the root fallacy? You remember what the root fallacy is, don't you?

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There is not one place in all the Bible where aion or olam (olam being it's equivalent) were ever used of the sense of eternal.

Why don't you address the evidence I presented to the contrary?

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Therefore it is impossible for its adjectival form of aionios/olam to mean eternal, for the adjective in the bible is NEVER greater than the noun from which it is derived. NEVER.

This is a prime example of the root fallacy. I see you have learned nothing whatsoever from the last time we had this conversation.

bobf

Aionios, being an adjective, does not change meaning. It's duty is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s).

It cannot be greater than the noun from which it is derived.

It (aionios) modifies the noun (i.e., Theos/God) as in Romans 16:26. The noun should never modify the adjective.

But some words are a bit fuzzy and the context and neighboring words can affect their meaning.

Consider:The man's license will be suspended indefinitely.The woman's license will not be suspended indefinitely.

In the first sentence "indefinietly" means for an unspecified period of time. It does not imply forever. In the second sentence "not indefinetely" means "not forever". It does not mean the time period is definite, that anyone knows when the woman's license will be reinstated.

Apocatastasis

The text is available via Perseus project although the site did not work for me when I tried to go there a minute ago.

To answer your question, Plato used both aidios and aionios in Timaeus37d. Both words are in reference to the unchanging realm of the timeless Forms in contradistinction to the transient world of time. Are you familiar with Palto's philosophy?

I haven't used the root fallacy. I can tell you must not know what it means or you would not accuse me of using that fallacy.

"When doing biblical exegesis, there are several pitfalls we must be careful to avoid. D. A. Carson calls these 'exegetical fallacies', and they are so prevalent that from what I gather from other's that are more well read on Carson's work than myself, he himself falls into some of them in spite of his having written an entire book on the subject! Rather than look at every single one of these pitfall, I'd just like to make you all aware of four. First, is what Carson calls the 'root fallacy' - often times we'll hear someone refer to the root of a Greek word to make some profound theological statement. In English we know this just isn't true, however: the root of a word may or may not have any real logical connection to it's meaning. For example, the root word for 'nice' is the Latin word meaning 'ignorant'. Or what it, years from now someone applied the 'root-word' theory of linguistics to the word 'butterfly'? A butterfly is neither a fly, nor buttery - the same is true in interpreting Greek. Although sometimes the root of a word does help us get a better idea of what it might mean, that is not necessarily always true." http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/how-to-read-the-word-evangelical-hermeneutics-or-how-to-read-interpret-the-bible/

Now then, had I tried to break down aionios into its parts and tried to come to the meaning of that word by its root meaning then you might have something to stand on in accusing me.

For intance, to say that American is the adjectival form of America and means "pertaining to America" is not using the root falacy. It is an absolute fact that American pertains to that which is of America. Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.Likewise Aionios is the adjectival form of Aion and means "pertaining to the eon(s)". This is not using the root falacy. It is an absolute fact that aionios pertains to the aion. If a person is punished for the aion and they receive aionion punishing then there punishing is pertaining to the aion.

When the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving and living,the created image of the imperceptible (aidion) gods, he rejoiced, and in his joy determined to makethe copy still more like the original; and as this was eonian, (aionios) he sought to make theuniverse so far as might be of a like kind. Now the nature of the ideal being was eons (or periods of time or cycles),(aionos) but to bestow this attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore heresolved to have a moving image of eonian (aionios), and when he set in order the heaven, hemade this image the eons or periods of time or cycles (aionos) but moving according to number, while eonian (aionion) itself rests inunity; and this image we call time. [Tony's note: Since the image is time (he just said so) and since that which is "eternal" is *non-time* therefore that which is eonian is that which deals with time and not eternity. Plato got it right. I have put the correct transliteration in bold above to correct the problem. Remember...this is about "time" not "eternity."TonyPlato timaeus 37d

Now, then Gabe,please bring forth in the New Testament where aion or aionios should be translated eternal. Just one verse will do and give your reason why it should be translated eternal.

Tony

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

if Plato really used aionios to denote eternity we must accept this, but he is only one man, i quess he didn't invent this word, so needn't matter that much, this is an interesting quote:

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Upon a lead tablet found in the necropolis at Adrumetum, in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, belonging to the early third century, the following inscription is scratched in Greek, "I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian and more than eonian (epaiõnion) and almighty, the One up-above the up-above gods." Deissmann requires to render this as follows: "the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods."

The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by seventy scholars, and hence called "TheSeptuagint," B.C. 200-300,(1) and the Hebrew word Olam is, in almost all cases, translated AiónAióniosetc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In theNew Testament the same wordsAión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the Englishwords,Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc.. So that when we ascertain the real meaning of Aión, we havesettled the sense of those English words in which the doctrine of Endless Punishment is erroneouslytaught.

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The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) definesaión thus: "The life of man, the time oflife." At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. Itretained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.

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Theodoret(9) (A. D. 300-400) "Aión is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimesinfinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes tothe life of man."

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Hesiod employs it twice: "To him (the married man) during aiónos (life) evil is constantly striving,etc.(17) Æschulus has the word nineteen times, after this manner: "This life (aión) seems long, etc.

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Aristotle uses aión twelve times. He speaks of the existence or duration (aión) of the earth;(22) of anunlimited aiónos;(23) and elsewhere, he says: aión sunekes kai aidios, "an eternal aión" (or being)"pertaining to God." The fact that Aristotle found it necessary to add aidios to aión to ascribe eternity toGod demonstrates that he found no sense of eternity in the word aión, and utterly discards the idea thathe held the word to mean endless duration, even admitting that he derived

Plus reply#11

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

THE PLATONIC DERIVATIONS.We have proceeded on the ground that Aristotle's etymology is authoritative. But nothing is furtherfrom the truth. The scholarship of to-day, possessed by an average educated philologist, is far morecompetent to trace this or any Greek word to its real source, than Plato or Aristotle was able to do. Inhis analysis of Plato's Cratylus,(8) Grote accurately observes of Plato's etymologies: "Though sometimesreasonable enough, they are in a far greater number of instances forced, arbitrary, and fanciful. Thetransitions of meaning imagined, and the structural transformations of words, are alike strange andviolent. Such is the light in which these Platonic etymologies appear to a modern critic. But such wasnot the light in which they appeared either to the ancient Platonists or critics earlier than the lastcentury. The Platonists even thought then full of mysterious and recondite wisdom. So complete hasbeen the revolution of opinion that the Platonic etymologies arenow treated by most critics as too absurdto have been seriously intended by Plato, even as conjectures. It is called 'a valuable discovery ofmodern times' (so Schleiermacher terms it) that Plato meant most of them as mere parody andcaricature."The character of Aristotle as an etymologist is thus stated by Grote: "Nor are they more absurd thanmany of the etymologies proposed by Aristotle." A slender hook this, whereon to hang such a doctrineas that of the immortal wo of countless millions of souls.

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Some years since Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin(13) patiently and candidly traced this word through theClassics, finding the noun frequently in nearly all the writers, but not meeting the adjective until Plato,its inventor, used it. He states, as the result of his protracted and exhaustive examination from thebeginning down to Plato, "We have the whole evidence of seven Greek writers, extending through aboutsix centuries, down to the age of Plato, who make use of Aión, in common with other words; and no oneof them EVER employs it in the sense of eternity."

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...