April 17, 2012

They don't even say it seems more akin... which it does because the media pounced on anything that was a Bush misstep. Obama, by contrast, has been portrayed as a mastermind. He, the great genius, made a gaffe?!

I'll let somebody else compile a list of Obama's 30 dumbest gaffes, put it next to an equivalent list for Bush. Here's a start: 57 states.

What made it worse than a simple gaffe was the fact that he was already working from inside an unfriendly environment. The Latin Left is agitating for Cuba to be included in 2015 (every 3 years on these, right?) and many of the participating presidents left the event early. It's one thing to make a mistake now and then especially when given the sheer volume of spoken words a president is responsible for. However, when your rep is built on supposed brilliance, it just makes the goose sauce that much more spicy. Let's all pine for an effective president who's equally adept at self-depreciating humor.

Very few of Obama's current supporters will remain stoic or reserved when Romney makes his first gaffe as president. It's an endless game of "look-who's-stupid" badminton and looks about as ridiculous.

How many times have we seen "unexpected" or "uncharacteristic" when referring to something that reflects negatively on Obama's actions or policies? An "unexpected" rise in the unemployment figures, for example? Yet there are plenty of people who expected these things. If it was unexpected by the Obama administration they should say so - "Unemployment rise unexpected by Administration". But to say that these things are uncharacteristic or unexpected without modification they make it appear as those this is what everyone thought. It's headline editorializing. Once again they're in the bag for Obama and are ... unashamed. Perhaps even ... unconscious.

It's all about getting back at the Brits for what they did to his scuzz of a dad. He is a pure enemy of the West. The likes of which can be found in every faculty lounge. But this one got to the White House.

It was thought that when he exploited his mother's untimely death to make a case for Obamacare that he clearly understood the difference between health insurance and disability insurance, and was therefore cynically using his mother's tragedy to advance the narrative.

it's uncharacteristic in that most of Obama's errors aren't minor syntax ones but are massive fuckups that cost trillions of dollars and discourage economic recovery. this one may not cost a penny: uncharacteristic!

1. How many states? Vice President Dan Quayle was virtually laughed out of Washington for misspelling potato back in 1992, yet Barack Obama made a more elementary flub when, during the 2008 campaign, he said: “I've now been in 57 states—I think one left to go.''

2. Hero soldier mix-up: While commending troops at Fort Drum, N.Y., for their completed deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, President Obama said, “A comrade of yours, Jared Monti, was the first person who I was able to award the Medal of Honor to who actually came back and wasn't receiving it posthumously." Wrong hero. Sgt. 1st Class Jared Monti was killed in action, another soldier, Staff Sgt. Sal Giunta, was the first living recipient of the Medal of Honor that fought in Afghanistan.

3. What year is it? During a trip to London’s Westminster Abbey, President Obama signed the guest book and dated it 24 May 2008. Oops. It was 2011. (Maybe he was wistfully dreaming about his 2008 election campaign at the time.)

4. Look at the map: Not only does Obama not know how many states there are, he also doesn’t know where they are. During the 2008 primary campaign, he explained why he was trailing Hillary Clinton in Kentucky: “Sen. Clinton, I think, is much better known, coming from a nearby state of Arkansas. So it’s not surprising that she would have an advantage in some of those states in the middle.” Obama’s home state of Illinois, and not Arkansas, shares a border with Kentucky.

5. What language is that? In April 2009, on one of his many foreign trips, President Obama mused, “I don’t know what the term is in Austrian” for “wheeling and dealing.” Oops, Mr. President. There is no Austrian language.

6. Twister casualties: After a devastating tornado hit Kansas, Obama discussed the tragedy without help from a teleprompter, saying, ''In case you missed it, this week, there was a tragedy in Kansas. Ten thousand people died—an entire town destroyed.'' He was only off by 9,988 as the twister killed 12 people.

7. How old is Malia? The President last month thought he was so clever, unfavorably comparing Republican procrastination on the debt limit to his daughters finishing their homework early. In his remarks, Obama made a reference to daughter Malia, saying she was 13 years old, when at the time she was 12. Imagine the press reaction if Michele Bachmann made a misstatement about any of her five children or 23 foster kids.

8. Special Olympics insensitivity: The President called and apologized to the head of the Special Olympics, after making this insensitive comment following a game of bowling: “No, no. I have been practicing. ... I bowled a 129. It's like—it was like Special Olympics, or something.'' Maybe he should have also apologized to bowlers for his feeble effort.

9. Faith confusion: No wonder so many Americans are unsure of the President’s faith, as he seems to be confused himself. During the 2008 campaign, during an interview with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, Obama said, “What I was suggesting—you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith,” before Stephanopoulos jumped in to help, saying ''your Christian faith.”

10. Health care inefficiencies: During the health care debate, President Obama explained all the benefits of ObamaCare, saying, “The reforms we seek would bring greater competition, choice, savings and inefficiencies to our health care system.” Mr. President, we already have enough inefficiency in health care and, yes, your “reforms” will only make it worse.

Obama was perfect before he got elected. There must be some kind of Bush funk left in the White House, on the furniture and the spoons. It has infected our leader with a kind of commonality with mortals. He has lost many of his super powers from this infection.

Since gas prices have doubled - that's 100% up for you Obama voters - yea, a 3% savings for some cars that are poorly maintained is pretty much a gaffe when explaining how to deal with those gas prices.

Let me demonstrate it for you, Freder. Just imagine that Bush said it. See? Now it's a gaffe.

halt the rise of privacy, and.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGW2TF1olA

Israel is a strong friend of Israel’s. And let’s face it, everybody knows that it makes no sense that you send a kid to the emergency room for a treatable illness like asthma and they end up taking up a hospital bed. It costs, when, if you, they just gave, you gave them treatment early, and they got some treatment, and ah, a. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCVL2tLICg

breathalyzer, or an inhalator. I mean, not a breathalyzer, ah, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxxGUeZtno

I don’t know what the term is in Austrian for that….http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr7zhnctF4c

My fellow Americans in all 57 states the. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

time has changed for come. With our country founded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m913UIMw0As

more than 20 centuries ago, we have much to celebrate – from.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiRhHqlzaG4

the FBI’s 100 days to the reforms that bring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdhvPy1LIp0

Given the sensitivity of both the UK and Argentina to this issue, this is a gaffe of no small significance. By trying to pander to the Argentines, he automatically ticks off the UK. By not getting the Argentine name right, he doesn't even get any points with the Argies. Epic fail on both sides of the coin. Successful insult - botched pander. Way to go champ.

"He knew in advance what O'Brien would say. That the Party did not seek power for its own ends, but only for the good of the majority. That it sought power because men in the mass were frail cowardly creatures who could not endure liberty or face the truth, and must be ruled over and systematically deceived by others who were stronger than themselves. That the choice for mankind lay between freedom and happiness, and that, for the great bulk of mankind, happiness was better. That the party was the eternal guardian of the weak, a dedicated sect doing evil that good might come, sacrificing its own happiness to that of others. The terrible thing, thought Winston, the terrible thing was that when O'Brien said this he would believe it." - 1984, Orwell.

The president visited the 10th Mountain Division today (June 2011) and congratulated them on their service. Then he told the soldiers that he had given the Medal of Honor to Jared Monti who came back from Iraq alive.Jared Monti was actually killed in Iraq in 2006.

And you subscribe to Thor Heyerdahl's thesis that they came there from Peru?

No opinion one way or t'other.

I'm just making the point that, until very recently when the diversity merchants created the Asian/Pacific Islander pigeonhole for allocating jobs, university slots, etc., they were considered a separate race from Asians.

PS I have a deal with one of The Blonde's nephews that, if he ever is assigned an American History project, we'll do "The 60 States of Barack Obama", wherein we detail how many ways, had America's wars gone a little differently, different parts of other countries (Mexico, Canada, Cuba) might have become those 10 extra states.

Are you really contending that the Queen couldn't get her hands on an unlocked or Region I DVD player?

I will contend that you don't seem to know much about diplomacy or gift giving. First of all, the DVD's when to Gordon Brown, not the Queen. Secondly, there's only two options in this case; his protocol people are incompetent or he ordered them to do it as a snub. Either way, he owns it. Of course, this is aside from the fact that they gave the fucking British PM fucking DVD's as a fucking state gift.

Were they rare DVD's dipped in gold and made from the metal shavings of a recovered British early 1800's frigate wreck? No. They were easily obtainable by anyone with a couple hundred bucks, a car, and a nearby Super Wal-Mart.

I'm surprised that you're allowing Jay to gain mileage on his "you can't say a negative thing about Obama" contention.

Are you really contending that the Queen couldn't get her hands on an unlocked or Region 1 DVD player?

I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm visiting you, Freder: "Thanks for having me over. Here's a BluRay DVD. You don't have a BluRay player? So what? Just go buy one, cheapskate."

I don't really hold the SCOAMF responsible for that one; after all, that's what the protocol office is there for, to arrange the proper sort of gift exchange. But it is wonderfully predictable and amusing to watch you do everything in your power to explain away any misstep of your Little Black Jesus, giving him a break you'd never give Dubya.

"... Very few of Obama's current supporters will remain stoic or reserved when Romney makes his first gaffe as president. It's an endless game of "look-who's-stupid" badminton and looks about as ridiculous..."

Well the problem is the left decided to measure a candidates gaffes as a sign of his or her lack of intelligence. Fine but they need to understand that cuts both ways. You know, to be FAIR.

I never considered Bush or Palin as intellectuals. In fact few Presidents probably possessed more than average intelligence. Politics smiles on guile and personality, intelligence not so much.

Obama did a decent job of masking his lack of smarts but that mask slipped off some time ago for anyone willing to look.

In fact near the mouth of the river, both the river and swamp side levees were overtopped. The river levees were overtopped from both directions, but while heavily damaged, held. The swamp side levees were breached.

On Sunday night, August 28, breach of the Lake Pontchartrain levees, was not only anticipated but expected. For Bush to say two days after the storm that "nobody anticipated the breach of the levees" can not be interpreted as an accurate statement in any way.

Obama: "Now, because of these new CAFE standards for cars and trucks, they’re . . . all going to be able to go farther and use less fuel every year. And that means pretty soon you’ll be able to fill up your car every two weeks instead of every week — and, over time, that saves you, a typical family, about $8,000 a year."

How fucking awesome is that! Especially since the average family spends $1,745 a year now! I mean because of Obama the average family will soon EARN $6,265/year just driving their cars!

Freder Frederson said...Actually, the threat to the levees is from storm surge, not winds.

Oh here we go again.

Former Sen. John Breaux (D-LA) told the Associated Press that it was well-known that the levees could not withstand a major hurricane: "Those levees are OK under normal times but once every hundred years, that's not enough. ... We've all said for years that a category 4 or 5 hurricane hit just right on New Orleans, there was nothing there sufficient to prevent New Orleans from being 20 feet under water."

And: A Category 4 or 5 hurricane would move up from the Gulf to Lake Pontchartrain, forcing lake water over levees and into the city.

By the way goofball, let me know when you want me to start posting stories about all those Democrats on the NO Levee Board who diverted money away from the levees.

Finally, you are uterrly incapable of offering even token criticism of Obama. And your attempt to say something negative about Bush is rather pathetic.

My favorite Obama gaffe was his first St. Patrick's Day when we was with the Irish PM or Ambassador (I forget which) and he started reading the other guy's speech off the teleprompter. He actually started to thank himself for inviting him (as the Irish dude) to the White House. It took him a few minutes to realize he was reading the wrong speech.

W. had an IQ of approximately 130 according to his tests taken in the service. This was reported in the NYT. Do we have a similar kind of IQ number for BO? I realize he was never in the armed forces, but perhaps he took a standardized test somewhere. Do we have his SAT scores, or something else?

He doesn't have the standard accomplishments we usually attribute to an educated person. He is not proficient in another language, for instance. Bush spoke Spanish. Kerry spoke French. Obama knows very little Indonesian although he was raised there.

So basically Obama meant to say Malvinas, the Argentine term which would signal to our closest ally Obama thinks it should be in Argentine hands. So he flubbed the name for some islands in the Indian Ocean thereby signaling to our closest ally that Obama doesn't back them on this and that he's also an idiot.

Really. A teacher interested in being non-partisan while hosting the Vice President would have said something like "Mr Vice President, here are the flash cards I use. The children respond by telling me which ones are spelled correctly"

where is the acknowledgement from any of you that Bush made some major gaffes.

Bush made some gaffes. As to the "major" part, to what are you comparing them to? Obama's? Bidens? Gore's? Clinton's?

The left was incessant in their attempts to portray Bush as an unintelligent, inarticulate boob. They have likewise been incessant in their attempts to portray Obama is an intelligent, articulate genius. Hypocrisy is one of those things that the average person just doesn't abide by.

Presidents will make gaffes. How "major" they are depends entirely on the outcomes resulting from those gaffes.

The entire UK gift thing has never smacked of gaffe to me. It smelled entirely of snub. Nobody but Obama's inner circle and his protocol droids know for sure, but it was low class regardless.

Who wants to bet Obama drops Biden if he gets lower than a consistent 10 points behind Romney? Would it take a bigger spread? Would it never happen?

But that would mean the Messiah had made a...

MISTAKE?

Kirby Olson said...

W. had an IQ of approximately 130 according to his tests taken in the service. This was reported in the NYT. Do we have a similar kind of IQ number for BO? I realize he was never in the armed forces, but perhaps he took a standardized test somewhere. Do we have his SAT scores, or something else?

He doesn't have the standard accomplishments we usually attribute to an educated person. He is not proficient in another language, for instance. Bush spoke Spanish. Kerry spoke French. Obama knows very little Indonesian although he was raised there.

What do you have against the USVI? By your logic we are up to 58, throw in Midway Island and we are at 59. So why doesn't the flag have 59 stars? And who are the congressman and senators from those states? The problem is that you like Obama are too clever by half. And too clever by half equals stupid.

Not nearly as bad as "nobody anticipated the breach of the levees" though. That was either a flat out lie or an incredible display of ignorance.

Nobody did. They worried about them being overtopped, which, you know, is different. Significantly so.

In fact near the mouth of the river, both the river and swamp side levees were overtopped. The river levees were overtopped from both directions, but while heavily damaged, held. The swamp side levees were breached.

On Sunday night, August 28, breach of the Lake Pontchartrain levees, was not only anticipated but expected. For Bush to say two days after the storm that "nobody anticipated the breach of the levees" can not be interpreted as an accurate statement in any way.

Do you know what the difference in overtopping and breaching is?

The terms are not remotely synonymous. I know what you cited is confused, but don't tell me you actually think they are the same thing.

Hint: Overtopping can LEAD to a breach --- but it is not a breach itself.

Hey, doesn't Obama have confusion as to what car insurance actually covers? Or what his mom's health insurance covered and why?

And should we empathize that Freder's argument is now "Well, Obama isn't any dumber...than the dumbest human to ever walk the planet according to people like me for eight years"?

Jon S. said... My favorite Obama gaffe was his first St. Patrick's Day when we was with the Irish PM or Ambassador (I forget which) and he started reading the other guy's speech off the teleprompter

Don't forget the variant where O'bama began his toast with the Magic words, the duck came down and the band started playing "God Save the Queen". He continued blindly with his speach, raised his glass, then looked around and saw everybody at attention, both brits and yanks, put it down and muttered through the tune before everybody then raosed their glasses to Toast, "To Her Majesty the Queen"

How sensitive all of you Bushies are to anything that even remotely reminds people of what we had to endure for 8 years. Now that you have Obama to blame for all of the ills of the world it is so impolite to mention the B word in anythng but nostalgic tones. To the Right it was the Good Ole Days to the rest of us it was 8 years of fiscal mismanagement, foreign policy SNAFU's and social reaction. So whine away about the "liberal media's" disrespect to your C student. At least Mr O got more votes then the first runner up.

PragmatistI can only think your moniker is sarcasm. How pragmatic is it to blame Bush 4 years after he's gone. Obama has many foreign protocol errors to reference and returning to Bush for examples is just political hackary at it's finest.

To the Right it was the Good Ole Days to the rest of us it was 8 years of fiscal mismanagement, foreign policy SNAFU's and social reaction.

I have to assume that you believe those three things aren't going on now. That would lead to your having typed that sentence with a straight face. Please tell me that's not the case, that you were merely in character prepping for an audition for SNL.

The logical conclusion, if you WERE serious, is that you felt you could levy those allegations at the Bush administration because Obama's is free from such, ie, there has been no financial mismanagement, no foreign policy blunders, and no social reaction. I mean, you're no ideologue, right, Prag? You freely admit that all three could arguably have happened during both administrations, right?

I'm reserving the use of "hysterical" for now, in lieu of your response.

How sensitive all you Bushies are to anything that even remotely reminds people of what we had to endure for 8 years.

Not sensitive at all, child. Just punching back twice as hard, as your petulant man-child would say.

Now that you have Obama to blame for all the ills of the world

Ills such as allowing the Islamic Brotherhood access to the White House? Ills such as record high energy prices? Ills such as an overconfident, soon to be nuclear Iran? Please do explain how Obama should not have to bear any resposibility for just those three. And listening to a leftist whine about blaming Obama is rich coming from a card-carrying member of the Bush LET 9/11 happen! crowd.

it is so impolite to mention the B word in anything but nostalgic tones. To the Right it was the Good Ole Days

Hardly. Despite the voices in your head telling you what "The Right" thinks, Bush was feckless in spending and too timid in attacking the entrenched government bureaucracy. He certainly did very little to put us on a path to fiscal solvency.

To the rest of us it was 8 years of fiscal mismanagement,

The stimulus. Shovel-ready jobs.

foreign policy SNAFUS

The RESET button.

and social reaction

Meaning what? Were you trying to hit on somebody and that mean ole Bush cockblocked you?

So whine away about the "liberal media's" disrespect to your C student.

Bush got better grades at Yale than Kerry. And better grades than divinity school washout Gore. But please, let's do compare the academic records of Bush and Obama. Link us to Little Black Jesus' transcripts, will you?

At least Mr O got more votes than the first runner up

And what would an incoherent, feces-spattered post be without a SELECTED NOT ELECTED! screech? Get that BDS taken care of, Pragmatist.

"According to the 2010 U.S. Census, Hawaii had a population of 1,360,301. In terms of race and ethnicity, the state was 24.7% White (22.7% Non-Hispanic White Alone), 1.6% Black or African American, 0.3% American Indian and Alaska Native, 38.6% Asian, 10.0% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, 1.2% from Some Other race, and 23.6% from Two or More Races. Hispanics and Latinos of any race made up 8.9% of the population.

"Hawaii is demographically unique because it has the highest percentage of Asian Americans and Multiracial Americans, as well as the lowest percentage of White Americans."

For a post-racial President who was largely raised on Oahu, you would think he would have a little more respect/knowledge.

YES. I agree with you. What do you think of the last three years of fiscal mismanagement?

I am sick to death of people who react to criticism of Obama's profligacy by pointing out that Bush spent too much. Where the hell do you think the tea party came from? Conservatives were upset about the Bush spending, about his responsibility for creating a new bureaucracy in DHS/TSA and we decided to do something about it. Can liberals say the same about how they respond to Obama's grossly irresponsible spending?

Since I saw the picture of Obama's speech writer groping a cardboard cutout of Hillary I've had a more complete understanding of Obama's failures. A quicker thinker might be able to mask his speechwriters drunken errors, but Obama has, at least, mastered the "a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a" stammer. For this I'm most grateful, as it makes for fun you tube videos.

Pragmatist said...To the Right it was the Good Ole Days to the rest of us it was 8 years of fiscal mismanagement, foreign policy SNAFU's and social reaction. So whine away about the "liberal media's" disrespect to your C student. At least Mr O got more votes then the first runner up.

Yes!

The horror's of 4.6% unemployment and a $247 billion dollar deficit!

And, and, and, and, Bush was totally like a C student and Obama, the genius who can't seem to understand what a P/E ratio is and who's grades you've never seen, is like super-duper-smart!!

Heavens--we are going revive all the BS that went on re Hurricane Katrina? Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin should have been charged with manslaughter--their failures led to the disaster. And for the ignorant among us, FEMA is a RECOVERY organization, not a response organization. Response is a function of state and local government. The Stafford Act applies.

I can only second your comment. The problem, if there is one, is that Freder set the trap and many others felt compelled to respond. Freder is not a sincere commenter. He seems to crave attention and comments only to get a rise out of others. I note that the other usual suspects have been silent on this thread. I suspect they recognize a no win situation when they see it and for that my respect for them increases slightly.

CWJ said... others felt compelled to respond. Freder is not a sincere commenter. He seems to crave attention and comments only to get a rise out of others. I note that the other usual suspects have been silent on this thread.

I resemble that remark. Responding to Freder is a was of good electrons.That is my policy.

"Intercontinental Railroad" - my 12, 10, and 7-year-old loved that one, since they have a timeline with the "Transcontinental Railroad" memorized as being completed after the Civil War.

Also, everyone around Columbus' time knew the earth was round. It was measured with close accuracy by Eratosthenes of Cyrene about 1,700 years before Columbus sailed to the Caribbean. Obama's gaffe about the "flat-earthers" in Columbus' day really grated on me.

He also thinks America was developed by unions, and never mentions the amazing greatness of rags-to-riches tycoons like Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Swift, and Carnegie.

He also thinks that somehow paying off the debt in 500 years with the Buffet rule will be a good thing.

How sensitive all of you Bushies are to anything that even remotely reminds people of what we had to endure for 8 years.

Just pointing out the idiocy of comparing Bush to Obama. Bush took over seven years to double the debt. Obama did it in three. Bush started two wars. Obama started four. Bush used drones to kill foreign terrorists. Obama used drones to kill US citizens. Bush passed the PATRIOT Act. Obama expands these police powers. Bush once knew a lobbyist. Obama's entire administration is filled with lobbyists. Bush bailed out banks. Obama bailed out more banks, GM, and spent nearly a trillion dollars all to see that real unemployment rate climb almost 25%.

For nearly everything the left bleated about Bush, Obama has matched or exceeded. And all done in a single term, which hopefully will not lead to another.

And you just ignored the fact that the category of the hurricane only refers to wind speed. Katrina's winds did drop just before landfall, but the critical damage was caused by the storm surge, not the wind. You really don't know anything about hurricanes, do you?

Oh, and btw, the Hurricane Pam simulation modeled a slow moving category 3 storm. The results of that concluded that the levees would be overtopped and breached.

Actually, Freder, you're the one shooting off your mouth without knowing what you're talking about. A colleague of mine -- a former colonel in the US Army Corp of Engineers -- told me that the key levees failed because they were undermined, not because they were overtopped. Some levees were overtopped, but the key ones on the Industrial Canal failed catastrophically.

That seems to jibe with a NOVA special I watched on PBS, which also mentioned a set of gates that could not be closed due to a CSX train derailment.

Interestingly, a photo of Bush surveying the flood was pushed by the media as an example of Bush's detachment, yet last spring when Obama flew over the Mississippi floods he couldn't even be bothered to look out the window at the devastation. Now that's detachment for you.

Craig said... I thought corpsman was another word for medicThey're called medics in the Army and, I presume, the Air Force, which was the Army Air Corps until 1947. The Navy has corpsmen, who also service the Marines, pun intended. Each service branch has its own culture and its own language.

told me that the key levees failed because they were undermined, not because they were overtopped. Some levees were overtopped, but the key ones on the Industrial Canal failed catastrophically.

And where did I say anything different? Your friend is right, the flooding in New Orleans and upper St Bernard parish was caused by the levees being undermined (because of poor construction, not design). The overtopping I mentioned was further downriver in lower Plaquimines and St. Bernard.

The point I have been making all along is that if the storm had not veered east at the last minute the Pontchartrain levees would have overtopped and breached (the design of the Pontchartrain levees practically ensures that an overtopping will cause a breach--and that did indeed happen in the swamp-, but not river-side, levees downstream.).

Again, breach of the New Orleans levees was not only anticipated, it was expected. The flooding that did occur was actually less catastrophic than what was predicted Sunday evening before the storm hit (although coastal Mississippi was affected much more severely than expected because that is where the huge storm surges occurred.)

And you just ignored the fact that the category of the hurricane only refers to wind speed. Katrina's winds did drop just before landfall, but the critical damage was caused by the storm surge, not the wind

Goofball:

Guess which creates more of a storm surge? A Cat 3 hurricane or a Cat 5 hurricane?