I would hate that. After almost a decade building up Thanos? Hell no, no bait and switch. I want to see him curbstomped.

This.

One of the biggest criticisms of Infinity War is that the film never refutes Thanos. He talks at length about his plans for half-omnicide and everyone just sort of lets him. The position seems to be,

Thanos: If I kill half of all people, the survivors will be much happier and live in a better world.

Heroes: Wow, that's super evil. I don't know if it's true but I know it's bad. We should probably stop it. The amazing and wonderful ends do not justify the brutal means.

Thanos: Only I have the courage to do what is necessary.

Heroes: Yeah, I can't argue with that. I cannot stand by and let this happen, no matter how factual and necessary it is.

Which is bad on the heroes' part. Their response doesn't really address the underlying logistical problem that even if it worked, it wouldn't work. The position should be,

Thanos: If I kill half of all people, the survivors will be much happier and live in a better world.

Heroes: Wow, that's super dumb.

Thanos: No, you see, if I—

Heroes: No, shut the f*ck up because we have all the science brains in the film's cast so I think we know what we're talking about. Your plan is garbage and you are a moron blinded by your own emotional investment in your stupid-ass ideas.

Thanos: But I've suffered for this. I've paid such a price to get here.

Heroes: That doesn't mean it's right. Your suffering is self-inflicted and everything you've sacrificed was pointless and unnecessary. No matter how many costs you continue sinking into this stupid idea, the root problem of it being stupid will always be there. You are wrong, sir.

Now, the main defense of this is that Infinity War is half a film. Endgame is supposed to be the other half, where Thanos's ideas are firmly refuted and his teeth get kicked down his throat.

But. Y'know. In order for that to work. Endgame has to be that second half. If Thanos just f*cked off right here and now, then he'd be walking out of the franchise undefeated both physically and philosophically. And then Infinity War would truly be saying that Thanos was right.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 14th 2019 at 8:47:06 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.

BocajFunny, but not helpful
from Here
Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords

Nobody really challenges Thanos because nobody that encountered him was really interested in debating his ideas

Dr Strange just listens politely to set up an ambush and when Thanos says that only he has the will, he switches to combat mode and says that the Avenging Guardians of the Galaxy have equal will to his own

Gamora just calls him a stupid asshole because theyíve probably had this argument a thousand times

Maybe they should have had someone specifically call his ideas bullshit but by and large the people facing him never got the chance to exchange much dialogue or didnít see the point in even trying when they could be punching

(An easy way would have been to have someone visit Gamoraís planet and see that itís not the moderate paradise he claims. Not sure how to fit that in but it would have been an easy show. Maybe against all logic have the soul stone there?)

I have heard that part of the reason for the time skip is to show how terrible and counter productive the snap would be for Thanosí stated goals

And I do hope everyone tells Thanos to shut up and that heís dumb with words and with punches

I'll admit to being a little baffled at the idea that Infinity War is somehow weaker for not having anyone discuss Malthusian economics with Thanos. I don't remember anyone trying super-hard to talk it out with Ultron once he debuted his stupid "I'ma save humanity by killing everyone" plan, and that was significantly dumber than Thanos by virtue of the fact that even ULTRON couldn't explain his own reasoning.

Second I'd think it shows some pretty good prioritizing to spend more time trying to, y'know. Not let him pull off his crazy half the universe ending plan.

Age of Ultron didn't spend a whole lot of time on Ultron's ideology, and his ideology was "What if I hit the Earth with a giant space rock and killed everyone?" There wasn't a lot to talk about.

By contrast, Infinity War spends a lot of time with Thanos's philosophical agenda. He gets to just stare into the camera and explain the logistics of his ideology without interruption multiple times. He uses the Reality Stone to create a Magic Powerpoint Presentation to share the history of his ideas. Dude won't shut up about it.

Sacrifice is a theme of the film. Thanos says that he alone is strong enough to make the sacrifices necessary to save the universe. And then he makes those sacrifices and he feels bad about them and we're supposed to feel bad for him as a tear rolls down his face, but he's convinced he must do it for the fate of the universe.

And then he wins and the final shot is him retiring in peace with the knowledge that the universe is better for his actions.

Like. If there wasn't a second part to the film, that'd be a pretty f*cked up message. The themes and ideas of Infinity War are on Thanos's side. He's even been described by Word of God as the protagonist of the movie. And that's why it's so important that Endgame be that second part. Thanos delivered his thesis in Infinity War. Endgame is the heroes' rebuttal.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 14th 2019 at 9:14:13 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold, dispassionate logic that which can be equally or better explained by emotional outburst.

BocajFunny, but not helpful
from Here
Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords

I don't remember anyone trying super-hard to talk it out with Ultron once he debuted his stupid "I'ma save humanity by killing everyone" plan.

They did. Visionís discussion with the last Ultron at the end. Also Steve says in his speech before the battle that itís important they also refute Ultron ideologically. ďUltron thinks that weíre whatís wrong with the world, that weíre holding it back. This isnít just about winning, itís about proving him wrong.Ē

Fine. I still like AOU (yeah, it's got some stuff that's stupid and stuff that really shouldn't have been there, but I just don't have the burning hatred for it that others seem to have), but I'm not gonna argue about it.

As for arguing Thanos' point: I see both sides. The fact that everyone is trying to stop him and that they know he's loopy and don't want to waste time debating with him makes sense. They shouldn't need to refute him because they do so by opposing him.

But at the same time, hearing someone shut him down would have been nice. The problem with that is...well Thanos wasn't going to let anything stop him.

Having a Hulk didn't stop him;

Trying to kill Gamora didn't stop him;

Having to actually kill Gamora didn't stop him;

Even destroying the very thing he was after didn't stop him.

I honestly think if someone had tried to argue against him, he'd have shut them down totally. He was set on his path and wasn't gonna let anyone or anything, not even death deter him from it. He said he'd destroy half the universe to save it, and he was gonna do just that.

You can't talk with someone like that; someone who's that determined to do things his way.

So just punching him and then living in a non snapped universe was the best bet for the heroes. With Thanos, the time for talk wasn't just over, it never even started.

Joss Whedon doesn't believe in director's cuts. What's on screen is what the director meant. (Obviously, this is different if someone else recut the film afterwards, but that wasn't the case with AOU.)

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl

As for arguing Thanos' point: I see both sides. The fact that everyone is trying to stop him and that they know he's loopy and don't want to waste time debating with him makes sense. They shouldn't need to refute him because they do so by opposing him.

But at the same time, hearing someone shut him down would have been nice. The problem with that is...well Thanos wasn't going to let anything stop him.

Having a Hulk didn't stop him;

Trying to kill Gamora didn't stop him;

Having to actually kill Gamora didn't stop him;

Even destroying the very thing he was after didn't stop him.

I honestly think if someone had tried to argue against him, he'd have shut them down totally. He was set on his path and wasn't gonna let anyone or anything, not even death deter him from it. He said he'd destroy half the universe to save it, and he was gonna do just that.

You can't talk with someone like that; someone who's that determined to do things his way.

So just punching him and then living in a non snapped universe was the best bet for the heroes. With Thanos, the time for talk wasn't just over, it never even started.

The only way for Thanos to ever be shut down would be seeing his "results" of his victory, and realizing that his well-intentioned goals are actually based on his subconscious selfishness to be proven right.

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