Gritzner, Barbara

ORAL HISTORY OF BARBARA GRITZNER
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
November 25, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is November 25, 2013, and I am at the home of Barbara Gritzner here in Oak Ridge. Barbara, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I'm delighted.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you were born and raised in Oak Ridge, weren't you? So, let's start there.
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok.
MR. MCDANIEL: Start with where you were born and your family and all those things.
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok. I was born on April the 12th, 1946 at the Oak Ridge hospital which, as I understand at that time, was a military hospital. And I was delivered by Dr. William Keetel who was a military doctor. My parents were Verne and Louise Gritzner and they had arrived in Oak Ridge in June of 1944. They were from the state of Nebraska, they'd both grown up in Lincoln, Nebraska but they didn't meet each other until they were in college. And, after my father received his mechanical engineering degree in January of 1944, he went to work for Westinghouse. They went to New York City but were only there a few months when my father was told that he was going to be sent to Clinton Engineering Works to work on a special wartime project.
MR. MCDANIEL: And this was what? '44?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. '44. My parents arrived in Oak Ridge in June of 1944, and they stayed their first three days at the Guest House.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they?
MRS. GRITZNER: That's right. Then they were assigned a duplex on Robertsville Road right across from where the present day Robertsville Middle School is located.
MR. MCDANIEL: So... So they ... So, he had been sent to New York.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Just working for Westinghouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Working for Westinghouse. And then they said, we got a special project, we're going to send you to the hills of East Tennessee.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Of course, my parents never dreamed they might end up in Tennessee. They had never been anywhere near the South. But they came down here and they lived the rest of their lives in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? They... I guess they were probably excited to go to New York, weren't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: You know, I don't know.
MR. MCDANIEL: You don't know.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't know whether they were or not. But, they were very young at that time, they were in their early 20s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. They were probably excited to go anywhere.
MRS. GRITZNER: But they were ... I think for them it must have been a fantastic adventure.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So they came here and they stayed three days at the Guest House. What did your mother and father tell you about that? That experience?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I'm not sure they really talked about their stay at the Guest House. They did tell me that at the duplex on Robertsville Road, the very first people they met was another young couple who were from Colorado. I have often thought since then, because so many of their friends were from different states, that was very typical of the early wartime residents of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: (coughs) Excuse me. (coughs) Excuse me, I'm sorry. (coughs) All right, so their, the couple next to 'em were from Colorado.
MRS. GRITZNER: Colorado, right. Very young also. But now, my parents must not have lived at that duplex very long because by the time I was born in 1946, they were living at 101 Viola Road in what's called an "A" cemesto house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And I have a picture of that house if you'd like for me to show it to you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Viola Road.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, as it was in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where is that?
MRS. GRITZNER: That's off Vermont.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, right. Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: This was an enlargement of the picture of this cemesto house. It was taken in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: That's the way it looked in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's the way it looked in '46.
MRS. GRITZNER: And on the other side, I have a picture of my parents in 1946 and myself.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah...
MRS. GRITZNER: And, of course, I'm the baby. (laughter)
MR. MCDANIEL: Of course.
MRS. GRITZNER: But as you can see, my parents were very young. They were only 25 and 26 at that time and I think that was very typical of those residents at that time. In fact, I've read that the average age of the residents of Oak Ridge in 1946 was, 26, or 27.
MR. MCDANIEL: 27, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, very young.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so they lived on Viola Road in that house. Did you have brothers or sisters that were born there?
MRS. GRITZNER: I have a younger sister, and she was born in 1949 while we were still living in that house. But in 1951, we moved to what was then a brand new house and it was not a cemesto house. And there was maybe 10 or 20 of these white sided, or something like a shingle siding, house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: That were built in the city and we ended up in one on California Avenue and this is a picture taken in 1951 or 2 of this house ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: ... on California Avenue at that time. It's kind of interesting to note that this house was built on a lot between 114 and 116 California Avenue, so that house address was 114 and a half, California Avenue. (laughter) And that's where I grew up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really.
MRS. GRITZNER: I was there from the time I was five 'til I left for college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? So... So your parents, your dad, now where did he work when he was down here?
MRS. GRITZNER: When he first arrived in Oak Ridge, he began working at the K-25 Gaseous Diffusion Plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, in 1960, he transferred to the Y-12 plant where he worked in the Alpha Five building. He was department head there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Did he work there until he retired?
MRS. GRITZNER: Until he retired in 1983.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. He ... So, you were here. You're living in Oak Ridge. And you said, how old were you when you moved to California Avenue?
MRS. GRITZNER: It was the summer I was five and just a couple of months later, I started kindergarten at Elm Grove Elementary School which was just, probably, two or three blocks from my house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, Elm Grove doesn't exist anymore.
MRS. GRITZNER: No, it doesn't.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where was that, exactly?
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok, it was on Tennessee Avenue, across the street from what is the old Elm Grove shopping area. I think now there's...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah, there's a park there now, isn't there?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, there is a park there where the school was located.
MR. MCDANIEL: Down near... Down near Kern Church...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Just past Kern Methodist Church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: But I went to kindergarten there all the way through sixth grade. Interesting to note, I think, is that when I started kindergarten -- and I was in the first wave of what is known as the Baby Boomers, born from 1946 to 1964 -- there were so many of us kids that they could not provide an all-day kindergarten program for us so they divided into a morning and an afternoon and I remember going to the afternoon kindergarten program. In fact, I remember the name of my kindergarten teacher. It was a Miss Pippert.
MR. MCDANIEL: Miss Pippert.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did your mother stay at home? Did she work?
MRS. GRITZNER: No, she did not work. She had worked before she was married and she had a degree in education and was actually a kindergarten teacher back in Nebraska before she got married. But no, she was a stay-at-home mother and that was fairly typical back on those days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly, exactly. So, you went to Elm Grove. This was the '50s.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess it was the '50s and when you moved to California, that's when you started kindergarten and that's where you... that's where you grew up. That area right there where you grew up.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So that's really where you start, really remembering things I would imagine.
MRS. GRITZNER: True.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was Oak Ridge like? What was life like for you all?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, at that time, I'm talking about the early 1950s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oak Ridge shopping was still in the Jackson Square area. There was no Downtown area yet, and I could remember going with my mother to...
MR. MCDANIEL: Townsite...
MRS. GRITZNER: ... shop at Loveman's. I remember Loveman's, yes, it was the old Townsite area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: The area where the Chapel on the Hill church is located, where the Guest House, which later became known as the Alexander Inn, was located, the Townsite tennis courts. The public library was located in that area. And, I remember going to that library. I've always enjoyed reading throughout my life, and I remember going to that library as a child and quite often.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. And that was, kind of, the center of town, it was, kind of, the hub of...
MRS. GRITZNER: That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: ... the hub of all the activity. Now, did you have a car or did you ride the bus or did you walk or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. We had cars. Now, I think that in the very early days of Oak Ridge, and I'm talking about the early 1950s, there was a bus system but I believe, perhaps, from lack of passengers, they quit running the buses and so, if you didn't have a car or didn't like to walk, you were really out of luck. But no, my family always had a car. My father loved cars and so, even when I was a very young child, we had at least two cars. When I was an older child, we had more than two cars. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly. So, what do you remember about going to Townsite? I mean, can you remember any of the... You mentioned Loveman's but can you mention any of the other stores.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I certainly remember the Ridge Theater there. And also, there was a drugstore located in what is now Big Ed's Pizza but next to that was the Ridge Theater.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I can remember, oh, I think maybe I was -- I'm just guessing -- 11 or 12 standing in a very long line to get into the Ridge Theater to see the new Walt Disney movie, Bambi.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: And there was a line of kids at least two or three blocks long.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: That was quite something.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think we had to pay all of a quarter to get admission into the theater.
MR. MCDANIEL: Probably so. What was it like being a teenager in Oak Ridge in the '50s?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, as a teenager, by that time...
MR. MCDANIEL: So, there was you and your sister.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Me and my sister and she was younger. By the time I was a teenager, I was going to Jefferson Junior High School which, at that time, was located on Kentucky Avenue, on the top of the hill above Blankenship football field.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think originally that structure had been the Oak Ridge High School but when they completed the new Oak Ridge High School on Providence Road, they renamed the structure on Kentucky Avenue as Jefferson Junior High School and I attended that school from seventh through ninth grades.
MR. MCDANIEL: What... Robertsville was Jefferson Middle School -- Junior High.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: They built... When they built the new high school they added a second Jefferson. They actually moved Jefferson to the old high school building and then renamed the building that Jefferson was as Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: Robertsville... Yes, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, but that's where you went to school?
MRS. GRITZNER: I went to school at Jefferson.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... And you went there the whole time you were...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Seventh through ninth grade. And then, tenth grade was when I started to Oak Ridge High School and I did graduate from Oak Ridge High School in 1964.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. Well, that was a... That was a time in Oak Ridge (coughs) 'scuse me... That was a kind of a tumultuous time in our society in the late '50s, early '60s with integration and all those issues. How do you remember that happening in Oak Ridge? How do you remember...? Was there an awareness of that or were there problems? What do you remember?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, it's interesting to note that Oak Ridge schools was the first school system in Tennessee to integrate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: However, I have often heard that Clinton was the first school, but I know we integrated ahead of Clinton but the only thing I can think of is that maybe Oak Ridge schools were still being -- well Oak Ridge was still being run by the federal government at that time and maybe we weren't considered a city in Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you know I made the documentary, "The Clinton 12." That's true, Oak Ridge integrated in 1955.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: But it was still considered a federal facility so it wasn't a public school system as such. And the federal government just said, "This is the way it's going to be and there's no question." The Clinton happened in '56 and it was court... It was ordered by the court, so.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And I do remember what happened in Clinton High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you remember that? Do you remember all that?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Oh, well, you know, it was national news.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember that and I remember the students that year, the Clinton High School students, had to come to old Linden School that was in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, that was about a year and a half later.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. When the Oak Ridge schools integrated, I can remember my parents talking about it a little bit, but really, not much. And it didn't seem to affect the school that I was going to, Elm Grove Elementary. And I have since read that there was some protests about the Oak Ridge schools being integrated but it must not have been very much. And I think a lot of that was because so many of the Oak Ridge residents were from other states and actually from the North. And my parents told me that they attended -- that their high school back in Lincoln, Nebraska, was integrated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: So it was not a new idea to them.
MR. MCDANIEL: For most people it was not. There were a little bit of... a little bit of blow-back, as they say, but much at all in Oak Ridge. But, of course, Oak Ridge integrated the high school in '55, but it took a few years for them to integrate the middle school and the elementary school. I don't think complete integration of Oak Ridge school system completed the cycle until around '63, something like that, so -- from the people that I've talked to and the research that I've done. But you don't remember it being a big deal?
MRS. GRITZNER: Not really. No. Now, maybe because I was so young I wasn't paying that much attention, but I remember a little bit of talk about it, but that was it. But something interesting that happened while I was at Jefferson Junior High School, was the time that Russia put up the Sputnik.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, that was big news in the city of Oak Ridge and even us students were aware of this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And a lot of talk about how the American school students might be behind the Russian school students. I think it just was not very long at all before the Oak Ridge schools decided to implement an accelerated math program. And so, they started talking about the upper one-third of the eighth grade classes and teaching them algebra and then they would have geometry in the ninth and, then algebra II, etc., and in that way acquire more math by the time they graduated from high school. I know that affected me because I was put into an algebra class when I was in the eighth grade. And, actually, I have to confess that math was not favorite subject. (laughter) And that eighth grade class that I was put into, my homeroom class had students in it like Henry Feldman who won the National Spelling Bee in 1959.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: And also in the same class Dickie [Richard] Weinberg who was the youngest son of Dr. Alvin Weinberg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: Our teacher felt he had to challenge some of these, you know, very brilliant students.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, my father and I had a very interesting year working in the algebra...
MR. MCDANIEL: Algebra... Was your dad good at algebra?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, he was pretty good at math. I mean, he was an engineer.
MR. MCDANIEL: An engineer, sure, I understand. But there's a difference between math and algebra, let me tell you. Trust me, I know the difference. (laughter) Well, I don't remember. I don't know when they're teaching algebra now; I know it's in, like, in sixth grade or something like that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, my sixth grade granddaughter is getting some algebraic equations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. What was... What was the social life like for a teenager in the '50s in Oak Ridge?
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, well, I ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it just typical, what you'd expect? Or was it unique in any way?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I don't know if it was unique, but I do know that in Oak Ridge, around that time, Ethel Howell began her ballroom dance studio and it seemed to me like probably almost every kid from maybe sixth grade through high school, took ballroom dance lessons during that time, during the late 1950s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Now, Ethel Howell was her name...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Ethel Howell. It was called Ethel Howell Ballroom Dance Studio.
MR. MCDANIEL: H-O-W-E or Howell.
MRS. GRITZNER: It was H-O-W-E-L-L.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, and where was it?
MRS. GRITZNER: Her studio was located in Grove Center in big rooms above the Oak Terrace restaurant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Yeah, sure, I know where it is.
MRS. GRITZNER: And so, that was part of the social life is that we were taking ballroom dance lessons. She would have this big, almost like a prom, dances that we'd attend. In fact, in later years, in the early 1960s, she started what was known as the Oak Ridge Cotillion. You didn't have to be taking ballroom dance lessons but you could become a Cotillion member, and there would be, oh, several dances a year where us girls would be dressed in formals and we would have dates. The boys would be in suits and they'd bring corsages and there would be a band to provide live music. And I do remember Mrs. Howell was totally shocked when the twist dancing started coming in, the ...
MR. MCDANIEL: The informal dancing.
MRS. GRITZNER: When informal dancing came in she was very shocked. She saw then the demise of ballroom dancing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly, exactly. You know, of all the people that I've ever talked to, you're the first person that has ever told me about her.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: I had no idea that was ...
MRS. GRITZNER: Her classes were huge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were they really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Really, a lot of students took her classes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was she like? Was she like this very formal woman, or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, she was running a business. I'd say she was a business-oriented lady.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: She knew what she was doing. She had set ideas on how it was to be done.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And she had students that went to ballroom dance competition. I know that when I was in high school, I had a few dates with a guy who had gone to New York City, with Ethel Howell for ballroom dance competition, and I know that he and his partner had come in third. In the Waltz, I think it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... You know, I talked to several people who went to Oak Ridge High School and grew up in Oak Ridge and didn't realize until they met other people and until they left and met other folks as to how good an education that they got in Oak Ridge. I mean, was that true for you, too, or...
MRS. GRITZNER: I think so and I've always had a very high regard for the Oak Ridge school system and maybe, partly, because I'm a product of that school system, but I think that from the early days of Oak Ridge and because we were run by the federal government for a number of years, that the teachers were paid the highest salaries of any school system in the state of Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this attracted some very top notch educators. And, when I was going to school in the 1950s and the early 1960s, most of my classmates had ... fathers who were scientists or engineers.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And there were some really smart kids in this group.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think that we had some very good teachers. And I'd like to mention one teacher that stands out in my mind in high school is Mrs. Ledgerwood.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And she taught combined studies. It was called CORE, but it was English and social studies, but she was quite an exceptional teacher.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Did you have any other teachers that maybe made a certain impression on you or, you know, helped you along the way?
MRS. GRITZNER: I also had a couple of teachers when I was in Jefferson Junior High School. I remember when I was in the seventh grade, my homeroom teacher who taught social studies was Mr. Fowler and he was ... I think one thing was he was so tall. He was about six-six and I had never met anybody quite that tall before. But, he was very interesting. His wife was from Columbia, South America, and he was fluent in Spanish. He was just a very interesting fellow and he really inspired me as far as to a love of history. And then, when I was in the eighth grade, I had another very special teacher. His name was Mr. Pitts and he was a World War II veteran. But he was teaching us algebra and English which was, maybe, a strange combination there, but he was quite an interesting fellow also.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. The... But you were in the new high school...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...so that must have been exciting, it was new and shiny...
MRS. GRITZNER: Fairly...
MR. MCDANIEL: ... fairly shiny.
MRS. GRITZNER: I have to say that when I got to the high school, I didn't think of it as being new at that time, but it's ... Well, see, I didn't get to the high school until 1961.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... When did they move in there? Was that...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I believe it was around 1953.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I was thinking. Yeah, that's true. Well, maybe the new had been... had worn off.
MRS. GRITZNER: It was worn out by then. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Or the kids had helped the newness wear off a little bit.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, by the time my class got to the high school, because we were the first wave of the Baby Boomers, there was a huge number of students at the high school. By the time I graduated from high school, there were around, and I think I'm correct, around 1,800 students.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And when I was a senior in high school, I remember looking out the window and seeing the round buildings going up and, of course, now they've already been demolished. But they were being built at that time to accommodate what was the rest of the wave of Baby Boomers coming up. But I've been told that my sister's class, the class of 1967, was the largest to ever graduate from Oak Ridge High and there were 600 in her class. There were 500 in my class.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness. My goodness.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't believe the classes in this current high school's nearly that much.
MR. MCDANIEL: I think it's about 1,400 total students. But, that was... Now it includes ninth grade.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And see, we were just tenth through ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Tenth through 12th.
MRS. GRITZNER: Twelfth.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's true. So what was dating like in Oak Ridge. What were some typical things young people did on dates in Oak Ridge? That you can talk about.
MRS. GRITZNER: I think going to the movies, going out to eat, perhaps. But that was pretty typical.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was there any place special that you would go and hang out and eat or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I can remember going to the Oak Terrace to eat (laughs) on a couple of dates. Course, movies were very popular, and going to some of these dances that the Ethel Howell Studio had was also another typical thing. Going to some basketball games, some football games.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was there a, like, a hang out?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, yes, and I know that people that are a little older than me have often talked about the Blue Circle and I have, I can dimly remember going around the Blue Circle, but by the time I was in high school, Shoney's was the more popular place to circle and I can remember going in my car or with someone else, another teenager, and we would keep circling around Shoney's. I'm not sure how Shoney's ...
MR. MCDANIEL: They call that cruising, I guess.
MRS. GRITZNER: I'm not sure how happy Shoney's was about that, but that was one of the activities.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when Shoney's was about 50 yards to the left of where it is now, or to the right, I remember.
MRS. GRITZNER: Probably something like that, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: 'Cause I remember... I remember, I grew up in Kingston and we came to Shoney's, like, almost every Friday night, you know. But it... It moved. The old Shoney's was there and they built a new one right next to it and tore the old one down.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't even remember that myself.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was the drive-in movie theater here when you were a teenager?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, as a matter of fact, I'd almost forgotten that. But yes, located off of Illinois Avenue.
MR. MCDANIEL: About where Kroger is.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, well, yes, right... Just up a little bit to the left of that. In fact, a Holiday Inn used to be very close to them. And I remember going to several movies with a date there, to the drive-in movies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Was...? Now, did you venture out very often to Knoxville or different places?
MRS. GRITZNER: You know, when I was in high school, I don't remember going to Knoxville that often on a date. But, now, my family, you know, when I was growing up, we used to go to Knoxville every Sunday after church and eat out at a restaurant there. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. And my mother liked to go shopping in Knoxville, too, so she would take us girls there quite often for shopping.
MR. MCDANIEL: To downtown Knoxville?
MRS. GRITZNER: To downtown Knoxville. Gay Street.
MR. MCDANIEL: Go to Miller's?
MRS. GRITZNER: Miller's, absolutely. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Absolutely, absolutely...
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, when the new Rich's was built, we would go there, too, so I remember doing quite a bit of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. So, you graduated high school in '64?
MRS. GRITZNER: Correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what happened then?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, then I started college at the University of Tennessee. But one interesting thing about before I started college -- the summer before I started college but I had already graduated from high school -- I was a summer worker out at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MRS. GRITZNER: And, my father, by that time, had been at the Y-12 plant for several years but I got just a clerical job and I did have to have a clearance, though. I was told later that my clearance investigation took three months because I had just been in Oak Ridge all my entire life, versus six months that was usually required for other investigations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Clearance investigations, and so...
MR. MCDANIEL: They knew where you'd been the whole time, didn't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. And I did have a "Q" clearance which was a secret clearance.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. GRITZNER: ... when I worked that summer.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, a couple of other summers while I was a college student, I spent working as a summer student at Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember an interesting incident that happened one of those summers. I had gone with some other college friends of mine to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory cafeteria for lunch and then, when we walked back to our building we took a shortcut through an alleyway and we usually did this, but later that afternoon, we were called back and asked... Well, they had to test us for radiation because apparently there had been a radiation spill in that alley, sometime during that day. But, fortunately, my friends and I were fine.
MR. MCDANIEL: You were good.
MRS. GRITZNER: We didn't seem to have any radiation. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Well, that's good. Did you...? Now, did you work any when you were in high school? Did you have any summer jobs?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. Now I did some volunteer work when I was in high school. I was a volunteer Red Cross worker for the Red Cross swim program during the summer times at the great, big, huge municipal pool.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... And I guess that was a favorite hangout during the summer.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, I should have mentioned that. During the summer, I can remember my friends and me going to the swimming pool and spending all day there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Now, when you were growing up, did they still sound the horn at, like, 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening? 'Cause...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, they did.
MR. MCDANIEL: They did? Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. And, you know, when I was growing up and I think, really, most of the time when my daughters were growing up here in Oak Ridge, they had air raid sirens and, I mean, they're still up there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And they do test 'em, I know, once a week, but we had them in those days also and they would test them once a week. And also, when I was growing up in Oak Ridge, and this was probably the 1950s, we all knew about evacuation routes that we were to take if the air raid siren went off and we were told to evacuate. The people on the east end of town here were told to evacuate to Jellico, Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: I've heard that story before, that...
MRS. GRITZNER: That's a true story.
MR. MCDANIEL: ... get in a line and walk to Jellico. (laughter) Oh, my goodness.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember another interesting thing when I was in elementary school...
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess Dave Miller told me that story.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, really?
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you remember Dave Miller?
MRS. GRITZNER: No, I don't.
MR. MCDANIEL: Dave is, probably, he may be a little bit younger than you. He went to Elm Grove and, you know, and he tells the story about that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I remember being going to Elm Grove, and this was, like, the early 1950s, that we had not only fire drills, but disaster drills or bomb drills.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, this was the Cold War.
MRS. GRITZNER: Cold War years.
MR. MCDANIEL: It really was. And, you know, the whole Cuban Missile Crisis, you know, that was when you were in high school, of course, but...
MRS. GRITZNER: But even before then, I mean, people during the 1950s really worried that World War III was going to start with the Soviet Union. And I can remember my father giving serious consideration to building a bomb shelter in our backyard.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. He never did, but he talked about it, he talked about it quite a bit.
MR. MCDANIEL: I remember seeing... I remember seeing advertisements in the old newspaper for an old company that was selling bomb shelters in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, I'm sure there were some people who did.
MR. MCDANIEL: I've been in one. I have been in one, so. Yeah, people were terrified, weren't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: Sure, they were really worried that there was going to be a World War III.
MR. MCDANIEL: And also, Oak Ridge was probably a good target for anybody that wanted to attack.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, that's another thing. They felt that Oak Ridge would be near the top of the list of targets.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: That may have been one reason why, as school children, we were given a dog tag.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MRS. GRITZNER: And this was... I remember wearing this when I was in elementary school and it has my name on it and my father's name.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And my address and my phone number and my birth date. I, for many years, thought this was unique to Oak Ridge, but I have talked to some people who said, "Oh, well, we wore dog tags." during those years in other communities. So maybe it was just symptomatic of the Cold War.
MR. MCDANIEL: It could be... I was, I mean, of course, I was... I'm a product of the '60s, grew up in the '60s, but in Roane, in Kingston, but I had dog tags as well.
MRS. GRITZNER: Did you have them? So, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: But that was still, kind of... The Cold War was still going on.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, definitely. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So anyway, you graduated high school and you go to UT.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And... Tell me about that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, at the University of Tennessee, I majored in political science and minored in history and, don't ask me why. Those subjects really didn't do me any good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, what were you planning on doing with those?
MRS. GRITZNER: I am not sure. I guess I had in my mind there would be some kind of job, perhaps in Washington, D.C., that I could use my degrees with, but, as it turned out, that did not happen.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went to UT and graduated?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, I graduated in 1968.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And I'd gotten married just the day before I graduated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MRS. GRITZNER: So, after graduation, my husband and I both were working at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you. Ok, ok, all right. So you settled...
MRS. GRITZNER: Settled in Oak Ridge -- we lived over on Nebraska Avenue for a few years. We had our first child, a daughter, Karen Elizabeth, and then, when she was 18 months old, we moved to 110 Baltimore Drive where I still live.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And in 1975, We had a second daughter, Kristin Louise, and those two daughters went to Woodland Elementary School when they were growing up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, Jefferson Junior High School. The new Jefferson Junior High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: The new Jefferson Junior High School.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then Oak Ridge High School. They're both high school graduates here, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you... You're proud that your daughters could grow up in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I really was. I felt that they were able to take advantage of the excellent school system and I think that they had lots of opportunities. They were involved in dancing; they were involved with piano and clarinet lessons, Scout troops. There were just a lot of good opportunities for them while they were growing up in Oak Ridge. But, I think, the same held true for me also.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there any particular people that, maybe, just like you, you had these teachers, that, like, in the community that you remember had a real impact on your daughter, your daughters, either one of your daughters, like Scout leaders, or, you know, dance teachers, or, you know, whatever?
MRS. GRITZNER: Hmmm... I'd have to give that some thought. I am not sure I could come up with a name just right now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: I know that... Well, I can think of one. My youngest daughter is a professional clarinetist.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: And she, from the time she was in junior high until she graduated from high school, she took clarinet lessons from Martha Domiano who is still now, principal clarinetist in the Oak Ridge Symphony.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Which, I'm sure; she had an impact on my daughter's training.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, where's your daughter...?
MRS. GRITZNER: My youngest daughter, who is a professional clarinetist ended up going to UT and getting her degree in clarinet performance but then she went on to Ohio State University, got a Master's degree in clarinet performance, and then auditioned for the Air Force band. She was accepted into the Air Force and was stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio for many years, but presently, she is stationed at Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, so she's still in the service.
MRS. GRITZNER: So she's still in the ... Yeah, well she plans to ... Well, she's making a career of it, seems like. And she loves her job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh... Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, my oldest daughter was able to take advantage of the education program here. She knew, by the time she was 10 years old, that she wanted to be a teacher, so, perhaps some of the teachers at Woodland Elementary School may have inspired her. And so, when she went to University of Tennessee, she entered into the five-year education program there and then interned for a year at Glenwood Elementary School...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did she? Ok, all right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And she got her Master's degree in education. Then she spent seven years teaching at Willow Brook Elementary School in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Teaching kindergarten.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: But during those years, she was married and by the time she started having children, she became a full time mother.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly. How did you see things differently for your daughters in Oak Ridge than they were for you and your sister? I mean, what are some of the differences that you saw? Good or bad, it doesn't matter.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I think that by the time they were going to school, the population of Oak Ridge had become a little more diverse. When I was in school in the 1950s and early '60s, so many of my classmates' parents were highly educated, were children of scientists and engineers. And many of them had parents who came to Oak Ridge during the war years or shortly thereafter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Shortly thereafter.
MRS. GRITZNER: And were involved in some highly secretive work. But by the time my children were going to school, there was not as many children who were -- whose parents were that highly educated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: I mean, there were still some. There's still a lot of smart, smart kids, but it was... It was a little bit less at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: We noticed this morning... We just found out this morning one of Oak Ridge young ladies is a Rhodes' scholar.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, I saw that. That is fantastic. And there is still a number of highly intelligent students in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was more... became more diverse. More...
MRS. GRITZNER: And, actually, I think that diversity comes from the cemesto housing, that early housing in Oak Ridge, although you don't really see a cemesto now the way it was during the war years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: They've all been renovated to some extent, but a large part of that cemesto housing is now rental housing and sometimes that has attracted some people that, maybe, are not, well, as highly desirable in a community as you would like to see.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this has affected the schools. I can see it, definitely effected the schools.
MR. MCDANIEL: I understand that the school system now, the overall school system in Oak Ridge, 50% of the students have free or reduced lunch.
MRS. GRITZNER: I'm not surprised. I think there are probably a large percentage of those students who need more services available to them, special education services.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: My daughter being a teacher at Willow Brook for a number of years and now doing a large amount of substituting at Woodland, she says even from the time that she taught years ago, she can see a huge difference.
MR. MCDANIEL: Does she live here in Oak Ridge?
MRS. GRITZNER: She lives here in Oak Ridge. She and her husband live here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So... Just as you grew up here and she grew up here, her children are going to grow up here.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: At least for a little while, you know.
MRS. GRITZNER: When you asked me about some differences, I did think of another difference. I think that the opportunity for sports, for girls to become involved in sports.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Was much more so for my daughters than it was for me growing up in the 1950s. For instance, when I was in high school, there was not a girls' basketball team.
MR. MCDANIEL: There wasn't?
MRS. GRITZNER: For some reason, they thought that girls should not be playing basketball, but I'm sure, in many other communities that there was excellent girls' basketball program but not in Oak Ridge. I'm just not quite sure if it was the thinking of the principal.
MR. MCDANIEL: I wonder why.
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, it was shortly thereafter that they did institute the girls' basketball program. And then, when my daughters were growing up, there was Girls' Club and they were playing sports like softball and basketball, and I just don't think there was any of that kind of involvement when I was a child.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you think that was just because it was the '50s? I mean, it was just...
MRS. GRITZNER: It may... may have partially been, it was just the '50s and they just...
MR. MCDANIEL: Just the way the culture was...
MRS. GRITZNER: There wasn't that many sports opportunities for girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly... But there were other opportunities for you, I guess, if you chose to be involved in some arts or music or, you said, dance.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right, I took piano lessons for many years from a very well-known piano teacher, Laverne Greer. She was a very prominent piano teacher in the 1950s and '60s. And I took dance lessons from a dance studio, oh, for a short period of time, that was located on Outer Drive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, of course, I'd mentioned the ballroom dance lessons. I was also a member of a Brownie and Girl Scout troop and I think that a lot of girls were involved in those kinds of things.
MR. MCDANIEL: I was going to ask you something, what was it? Oh, do you remember who taught you to swim?
MRS. GRITZNER: I...
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it Red Cross or ...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I took Red Cross swimming lessons but I also took swimming lessons from a very well-known swim teacher, Bobbie Smith.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. And she was my PE teacher when I was at Jefferson Junior High School. When I was going through elementary school, there was no PE program during that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: None whatsoever. The School had a gymnasium and sometimes our teacher would take us to the gymnasium but most of the time our PE program was simply recess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Recess, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: When we went to Jefferson Junior High School, suddenly, I was in a PE program and it was pretty intense because, at that time, Bobbie Smith was the girls' PE teacher and Coach Orlando, Nick Orlando, was the boys' PE teacher. And they were two very influential teachers at Jefferson during that time in the Oak Ridge school system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: But, yeah, I can remember well, that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, see, I... I was born in '57 so I was in elementary school in the '60s and I can't remember having a PE class in elementary school. I can't remember having it until I got into middle school.
MRS. GRITZNER: All right, well it may have been common.
MR. MCDANIEL: May have been a common thing back then. Not anymore.
MRS. GRITZNER: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Course, we played hard at recess.
MRS. GRITZNER: I think, you know, kids were outdoors a lot. When I was growing up in Oak Ridge, kids -- it was very common for kids to go outdoors and play all day long outdoors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, absolutely.
MRS. GRITZNER: Their parents wouldn't even know where they were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And, I guess, you know, it's true, they... They'd go out and play and felt... still felt fairly safe even after the gates were opened.
MRS. GRITZNER: After the gates were opened. Well, Oak Ridge had a very low crime rate in the 1950s. I mean, there really wasn't any. I mean, sometimes a purse snatching.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: But, well, that's just about it. And people felt very safe in Oak Ridge. I think, probably, most Oak Ridge residents did not bother to lock their houses or lock their cars.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure they didn't, I'm sure they didn't.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, it was a different time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Obviously you enjoyed growing up in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: I really did.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you enjoy living in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: I do. I think I was almost an adult before I realized how unique it was to be growing up in a city like Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: How different it was from, perhaps, other communities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well once you get... You take it... Like I said earlier, you take it for granted until you see how other people, you know, do things.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. Well, children are very adaptable and very accepting, you know, and I just thought everything was normal. I thought it was normal my father worked at a plant and at a place where I could never visit.
MR. MCDANIEL: You could never visit, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And that he wore a badge clipped to his collar every day when he went to work and it was a radiation monitor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: That he would tell me not to touch his shoes. I guess he thought maybe he had radiation on them. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. GRITZNER: And I thought it was normal when we'd go around through the city of Oak Ridge and there would be billboards situated throughout the city that were talking about security. And these messages would be changed every now and then, but it was always about the confidentiality. You know, I'd just think, well, this is normal. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Well, you didn't know any different, did you?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right...
MR. MCDANIEL: What else you want to talk about? You got any other good stories or anybody... If you want to say anything bad about somebody, now's your chance. (laughter) But you're awful young... That's usually what I tell folks when I interview 'em, but their usually much, much older than you. (laughter) You got plenty of time.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I would like to say that I feel very fortunate to have been born in Oak Ridge and to have grown up in Oak Ridge and enjoyed the opportunity of going through an excellent educational system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And, really, this is a nice, pleasant place to raise your children.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I've always believed that. And I hope that I spend the rest of my days in Oak Ridge. I really do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you have any problem with Oak Ridge's, the history of Oak Ridge's foundation? Of its being built here, I mean, is there...? Do you have any -- how shall I put it? -- problem with Oak Ridge's history? I mean, personally.
MRS. GRITZNER: Not really. I think that when Oak Ridge was built, most people felt that this was a wartime effort and, even though I know that people had to be told to leave, to leave here, the farming area -- it was a farming area and I'm sure there was some resentment on that -- but I think that people were so involved in a total, all-out war effort back in those days, and they wanted this war to end. And this is why the Manhattan Project came about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: They wanted to build the bomb before Germany, or, we thought Germany was going to...
MR. MCDANIEL: We thought Germany...
MRS. GRITZNER: But we also, by the time it was going to be dropped on Japan, we were interested in ending this war before any more American casualities could happen, especially if we had to invade the island of Japan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly. Now, did you work, as an adult, in Oak Ridge? Or were you a homemaker?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, as an adult, I graduated from UT and worked several years at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, when my first daughter was born, I became a homemaker.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Then later, I, let's see, it was around, I guess in about 1985, both my children were still in elementary school, but I started working as a tempo worker at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, which just meant I was assigned to different places...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: ...throughout. But I was only there a year when I saw the opportunity to apply for a job at Robertsville Junior High School, so I was school secretary at that place for 10 years and then I had re-married and wanted a less chaotic job...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: ...than being school secretary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And went to a teacher assistant for the fifth grade. And I retired at the end of 2002.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, who...? Who was principal when you were secretary?
MRS. GRITZNER: Thomas Hayes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was he?
MRS. GRITZNER: Tom Hayes. And he was really an excellent administrator.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh, right... I see where it's on the agenda to name the gym after him at Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, I think that is well deserved. (laughter) I really do. I still run into him occasionally and I think that would be a very nice honor for him.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then you said you were a substitute, or a teacher's aide for fifth grade?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. At Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this was when both Robertsville and Jefferson went from being junior highs to becoming middle schools.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...a middle school...
MRS. GRITZNER: With the fifth through the eighth grade. And the ninth grade went on to the high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: 'Cause it used to be just seventh, eighth and ninth, didn't it?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. In fact, when I started working at Robertsville, it was seventh, eighth and ninth, but just a couple of years later they had the sixth grade come to the junior high and so it was sixth grade through ninth and that was a fairly large student population. Quite a lot of difference, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MRS. GRITZNER: But then, when they became a middle school and ninth grade went on to the high school, they added fifth grade. It was my understanding that they did this to avoid having to build another additional elementary school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly. Well, so, anything else you want to talk about?
MRS. GRITZNER: Let's see... Can I glance at my notes...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, go right ahead.
MRS. GRITZNER: ... for just a minute and see if there's anything that I missed that... (papers rustle)
MR. MCDANIEL: Feel free.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, one thing I'd like to mention is that it seems like right now there is a lot of interest about the early, historical days of Oak Ridge and possibly because a new book came out just recently, 'The Girls of the Atomic City.' And this is a book focusing on the women who came to Oak Ridge who were, I think, in some ways, recruited to come to Oak Ridge and work on the project and they didn't know what their work was about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, they didn't know what their work was for.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: I was asked to recently speak at a book club for my sister-in-law who lives in Marion, North Carolina. And so, just a couple of weeks ago, I went over there and talked to her book club about growing up in Oak Ridge. Those women really seemed fascinated to hear about the years of growing up in Oak Ridge, what it was like.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I've just seen so many people in Oak Ridge who are interested about the early history. I have checked out that book from the public library where they have told me that they have five copies of that book and that it is never on the shelf.
MR. MCDANIEL: Almost never on the shelves, that's true.
MRS. GRITZNER: There is always a long waiting list of people waiting to check that book out. So I thought that was very interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: It is interesting. It is. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us. I really appreciate it.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, thank you, thank you, I appreciate the opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: It's nice to speak to somebody who grew up in Oak Ridge and, basically, lived their entire life in Oak Ridge, you know.
MRS. GRITZNER: That's true.
MR. MCDANIEL: You have a unique perspective.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, thank you. I have enjoyed having the opportunity to talk to you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Very good. Thank you.
MRS. GRITZNER: Thank you.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mrs. Gritzner’s request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]

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ORAL HISTORY OF BARBARA GRITZNER
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
November 25, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is November 25, 2013, and I am at the home of Barbara Gritzner here in Oak Ridge. Barbara, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I'm delighted.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you were born and raised in Oak Ridge, weren't you? So, let's start there.
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok.
MR. MCDANIEL: Start with where you were born and your family and all those things.
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok. I was born on April the 12th, 1946 at the Oak Ridge hospital which, as I understand at that time, was a military hospital. And I was delivered by Dr. William Keetel who was a military doctor. My parents were Verne and Louise Gritzner and they had arrived in Oak Ridge in June of 1944. They were from the state of Nebraska, they'd both grown up in Lincoln, Nebraska but they didn't meet each other until they were in college. And, after my father received his mechanical engineering degree in January of 1944, he went to work for Westinghouse. They went to New York City but were only there a few months when my father was told that he was going to be sent to Clinton Engineering Works to work on a special wartime project.
MR. MCDANIEL: And this was what? '44?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. '44. My parents arrived in Oak Ridge in June of 1944, and they stayed their first three days at the Guest House.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they?
MRS. GRITZNER: That's right. Then they were assigned a duplex on Robertsville Road right across from where the present day Robertsville Middle School is located.
MR. MCDANIEL: So... So they ... So, he had been sent to New York.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Just working for Westinghouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Working for Westinghouse. And then they said, we got a special project, we're going to send you to the hills of East Tennessee.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Of course, my parents never dreamed they might end up in Tennessee. They had never been anywhere near the South. But they came down here and they lived the rest of their lives in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? They... I guess they were probably excited to go to New York, weren't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: You know, I don't know.
MR. MCDANIEL: You don't know.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't know whether they were or not. But, they were very young at that time, they were in their early 20s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. They were probably excited to go anywhere.
MRS. GRITZNER: But they were ... I think for them it must have been a fantastic adventure.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So they came here and they stayed three days at the Guest House. What did your mother and father tell you about that? That experience?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I'm not sure they really talked about their stay at the Guest House. They did tell me that at the duplex on Robertsville Road, the very first people they met was another young couple who were from Colorado. I have often thought since then, because so many of their friends were from different states, that was very typical of the early wartime residents of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: (coughs) Excuse me. (coughs) Excuse me, I'm sorry. (coughs) All right, so their, the couple next to 'em were from Colorado.
MRS. GRITZNER: Colorado, right. Very young also. But now, my parents must not have lived at that duplex very long because by the time I was born in 1946, they were living at 101 Viola Road in what's called an "A" cemesto house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And I have a picture of that house if you'd like for me to show it to you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Viola Road.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, as it was in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where is that?
MRS. GRITZNER: That's off Vermont.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, right. Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: This was an enlargement of the picture of this cemesto house. It was taken in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: That's the way it looked in 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's the way it looked in '46.
MRS. GRITZNER: And on the other side, I have a picture of my parents in 1946 and myself.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah...
MRS. GRITZNER: And, of course, I'm the baby. (laughter)
MR. MCDANIEL: Of course.
MRS. GRITZNER: But as you can see, my parents were very young. They were only 25 and 26 at that time and I think that was very typical of those residents at that time. In fact, I've read that the average age of the residents of Oak Ridge in 1946 was, 26, or 27.
MR. MCDANIEL: 27, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, very young.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so they lived on Viola Road in that house. Did you have brothers or sisters that were born there?
MRS. GRITZNER: I have a younger sister, and she was born in 1949 while we were still living in that house. But in 1951, we moved to what was then a brand new house and it was not a cemesto house. And there was maybe 10 or 20 of these white sided, or something like a shingle siding, house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: That were built in the city and we ended up in one on California Avenue and this is a picture taken in 1951 or 2 of this house ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: ... on California Avenue at that time. It's kind of interesting to note that this house was built on a lot between 114 and 116 California Avenue, so that house address was 114 and a half, California Avenue. (laughter) And that's where I grew up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really.
MRS. GRITZNER: I was there from the time I was five 'til I left for college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? So... So your parents, your dad, now where did he work when he was down here?
MRS. GRITZNER: When he first arrived in Oak Ridge, he began working at the K-25 Gaseous Diffusion Plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, in 1960, he transferred to the Y-12 plant where he worked in the Alpha Five building. He was department head there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Did he work there until he retired?
MRS. GRITZNER: Until he retired in 1983.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. He ... So, you were here. You're living in Oak Ridge. And you said, how old were you when you moved to California Avenue?
MRS. GRITZNER: It was the summer I was five and just a couple of months later, I started kindergarten at Elm Grove Elementary School which was just, probably, two or three blocks from my house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, Elm Grove doesn't exist anymore.
MRS. GRITZNER: No, it doesn't.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where was that, exactly?
MRS. GRITZNER: Ok, it was on Tennessee Avenue, across the street from what is the old Elm Grove shopping area. I think now there's...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah, there's a park there now, isn't there?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, there is a park there where the school was located.
MR. MCDANIEL: Down near... Down near Kern Church...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Just past Kern Methodist Church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: But I went to kindergarten there all the way through sixth grade. Interesting to note, I think, is that when I started kindergarten -- and I was in the first wave of what is known as the Baby Boomers, born from 1946 to 1964 -- there were so many of us kids that they could not provide an all-day kindergarten program for us so they divided into a morning and an afternoon and I remember going to the afternoon kindergarten program. In fact, I remember the name of my kindergarten teacher. It was a Miss Pippert.
MR. MCDANIEL: Miss Pippert.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did your mother stay at home? Did she work?
MRS. GRITZNER: No, she did not work. She had worked before she was married and she had a degree in education and was actually a kindergarten teacher back in Nebraska before she got married. But no, she was a stay-at-home mother and that was fairly typical back on those days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly, exactly. So, you went to Elm Grove. This was the '50s.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess it was the '50s and when you moved to California, that's when you started kindergarten and that's where you... that's where you grew up. That area right there where you grew up.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So that's really where you start, really remembering things I would imagine.
MRS. GRITZNER: True.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was Oak Ridge like? What was life like for you all?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, at that time, I'm talking about the early 1950s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oak Ridge shopping was still in the Jackson Square area. There was no Downtown area yet, and I could remember going with my mother to...
MR. MCDANIEL: Townsite...
MRS. GRITZNER: ... shop at Loveman's. I remember Loveman's, yes, it was the old Townsite area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: The area where the Chapel on the Hill church is located, where the Guest House, which later became known as the Alexander Inn, was located, the Townsite tennis courts. The public library was located in that area. And, I remember going to that library. I've always enjoyed reading throughout my life, and I remember going to that library as a child and quite often.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. And that was, kind of, the center of town, it was, kind of, the hub of...
MRS. GRITZNER: That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: ... the hub of all the activity. Now, did you have a car or did you ride the bus or did you walk or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. We had cars. Now, I think that in the very early days of Oak Ridge, and I'm talking about the early 1950s, there was a bus system but I believe, perhaps, from lack of passengers, they quit running the buses and so, if you didn't have a car or didn't like to walk, you were really out of luck. But no, my family always had a car. My father loved cars and so, even when I was a very young child, we had at least two cars. When I was an older child, we had more than two cars. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly. So, what do you remember about going to Townsite? I mean, can you remember any of the... You mentioned Loveman's but can you mention any of the other stores.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I certainly remember the Ridge Theater there. And also, there was a drugstore located in what is now Big Ed's Pizza but next to that was the Ridge Theater.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I can remember, oh, I think maybe I was -- I'm just guessing -- 11 or 12 standing in a very long line to get into the Ridge Theater to see the new Walt Disney movie, Bambi.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: And there was a line of kids at least two or three blocks long.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: That was quite something.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think we had to pay all of a quarter to get admission into the theater.
MR. MCDANIEL: Probably so. What was it like being a teenager in Oak Ridge in the '50s?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, as a teenager, by that time...
MR. MCDANIEL: So, there was you and your sister.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. Me and my sister and she was younger. By the time I was a teenager, I was going to Jefferson Junior High School which, at that time, was located on Kentucky Avenue, on the top of the hill above Blankenship football field.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think originally that structure had been the Oak Ridge High School but when they completed the new Oak Ridge High School on Providence Road, they renamed the structure on Kentucky Avenue as Jefferson Junior High School and I attended that school from seventh through ninth grades.
MR. MCDANIEL: What... Robertsville was Jefferson Middle School -- Junior High.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: They built... When they built the new high school they added a second Jefferson. They actually moved Jefferson to the old high school building and then renamed the building that Jefferson was as Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: Robertsville... Yes, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, but that's where you went to school?
MRS. GRITZNER: I went to school at Jefferson.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... And you went there the whole time you were...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Seventh through ninth grade. And then, tenth grade was when I started to Oak Ridge High School and I did graduate from Oak Ridge High School in 1964.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. Well, that was a... That was a time in Oak Ridge (coughs) 'scuse me... That was a kind of a tumultuous time in our society in the late '50s, early '60s with integration and all those issues. How do you remember that happening in Oak Ridge? How do you remember...? Was there an awareness of that or were there problems? What do you remember?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, it's interesting to note that Oak Ridge schools was the first school system in Tennessee to integrate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: However, I have often heard that Clinton was the first school, but I know we integrated ahead of Clinton but the only thing I can think of is that maybe Oak Ridge schools were still being -- well Oak Ridge was still being run by the federal government at that time and maybe we weren't considered a city in Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you know I made the documentary, "The Clinton 12." That's true, Oak Ridge integrated in 1955.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: But it was still considered a federal facility so it wasn't a public school system as such. And the federal government just said, "This is the way it's going to be and there's no question." The Clinton happened in '56 and it was court... It was ordered by the court, so.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And I do remember what happened in Clinton High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you remember that? Do you remember all that?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. Oh, well, you know, it was national news.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember that and I remember the students that year, the Clinton High School students, had to come to old Linden School that was in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, that was about a year and a half later.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. When the Oak Ridge schools integrated, I can remember my parents talking about it a little bit, but really, not much. And it didn't seem to affect the school that I was going to, Elm Grove Elementary. And I have since read that there was some protests about the Oak Ridge schools being integrated but it must not have been very much. And I think a lot of that was because so many of the Oak Ridge residents were from other states and actually from the North. And my parents told me that they attended -- that their high school back in Lincoln, Nebraska, was integrated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: So it was not a new idea to them.
MR. MCDANIEL: For most people it was not. There were a little bit of... a little bit of blow-back, as they say, but much at all in Oak Ridge. But, of course, Oak Ridge integrated the high school in '55, but it took a few years for them to integrate the middle school and the elementary school. I don't think complete integration of Oak Ridge school system completed the cycle until around '63, something like that, so -- from the people that I've talked to and the research that I've done. But you don't remember it being a big deal?
MRS. GRITZNER: Not really. No. Now, maybe because I was so young I wasn't paying that much attention, but I remember a little bit of talk about it, but that was it. But something interesting that happened while I was at Jefferson Junior High School, was the time that Russia put up the Sputnik.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, that was big news in the city of Oak Ridge and even us students were aware of this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And a lot of talk about how the American school students might be behind the Russian school students. I think it just was not very long at all before the Oak Ridge schools decided to implement an accelerated math program. And so, they started talking about the upper one-third of the eighth grade classes and teaching them algebra and then they would have geometry in the ninth and, then algebra II, etc., and in that way acquire more math by the time they graduated from high school. I know that affected me because I was put into an algebra class when I was in the eighth grade. And, actually, I have to confess that math was not favorite subject. (laughter) And that eighth grade class that I was put into, my homeroom class had students in it like Henry Feldman who won the National Spelling Bee in 1959.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: And also in the same class Dickie [Richard] Weinberg who was the youngest son of Dr. Alvin Weinberg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: Our teacher felt he had to challenge some of these, you know, very brilliant students.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, my father and I had a very interesting year working in the algebra...
MR. MCDANIEL: Algebra... Was your dad good at algebra?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, he was pretty good at math. I mean, he was an engineer.
MR. MCDANIEL: An engineer, sure, I understand. But there's a difference between math and algebra, let me tell you. Trust me, I know the difference. (laughter) Well, I don't remember. I don't know when they're teaching algebra now; I know it's in, like, in sixth grade or something like that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, my sixth grade granddaughter is getting some algebraic equations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. What was... What was the social life like for a teenager in the '50s in Oak Ridge?
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, well, I ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it just typical, what you'd expect? Or was it unique in any way?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I don't know if it was unique, but I do know that in Oak Ridge, around that time, Ethel Howell began her ballroom dance studio and it seemed to me like probably almost every kid from maybe sixth grade through high school, took ballroom dance lessons during that time, during the late 1950s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Now, Ethel Howell was her name...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Ethel Howell. It was called Ethel Howell Ballroom Dance Studio.
MR. MCDANIEL: H-O-W-E or Howell.
MRS. GRITZNER: It was H-O-W-E-L-L.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, and where was it?
MRS. GRITZNER: Her studio was located in Grove Center in big rooms above the Oak Terrace restaurant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Yeah, sure, I know where it is.
MRS. GRITZNER: And so, that was part of the social life is that we were taking ballroom dance lessons. She would have this big, almost like a prom, dances that we'd attend. In fact, in later years, in the early 1960s, she started what was known as the Oak Ridge Cotillion. You didn't have to be taking ballroom dance lessons but you could become a Cotillion member, and there would be, oh, several dances a year where us girls would be dressed in formals and we would have dates. The boys would be in suits and they'd bring corsages and there would be a band to provide live music. And I do remember Mrs. Howell was totally shocked when the twist dancing started coming in, the ...
MR. MCDANIEL: The informal dancing.
MRS. GRITZNER: When informal dancing came in she was very shocked. She saw then the demise of ballroom dancing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly, exactly. You know, of all the people that I've ever talked to, you're the first person that has ever told me about her.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: I had no idea that was ...
MRS. GRITZNER: Her classes were huge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were they really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Really, a lot of students took her classes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was she like? Was she like this very formal woman, or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, she was running a business. I'd say she was a business-oriented lady.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: She knew what she was doing. She had set ideas on how it was to be done.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And she had students that went to ballroom dance competition. I know that when I was in high school, I had a few dates with a guy who had gone to New York City, with Ethel Howell for ballroom dance competition, and I know that he and his partner had come in third. In the Waltz, I think it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... You know, I talked to several people who went to Oak Ridge High School and grew up in Oak Ridge and didn't realize until they met other people and until they left and met other folks as to how good an education that they got in Oak Ridge. I mean, was that true for you, too, or...
MRS. GRITZNER: I think so and I've always had a very high regard for the Oak Ridge school system and maybe, partly, because I'm a product of that school system, but I think that from the early days of Oak Ridge and because we were run by the federal government for a number of years, that the teachers were paid the highest salaries of any school system in the state of Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this attracted some very top notch educators. And, when I was going to school in the 1950s and the early 1960s, most of my classmates had ... fathers who were scientists or engineers.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And there were some really smart kids in this group.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I think that we had some very good teachers. And I'd like to mention one teacher that stands out in my mind in high school is Mrs. Ledgerwood.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And she taught combined studies. It was called CORE, but it was English and social studies, but she was quite an exceptional teacher.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Did you have any other teachers that maybe made a certain impression on you or, you know, helped you along the way?
MRS. GRITZNER: I also had a couple of teachers when I was in Jefferson Junior High School. I remember when I was in the seventh grade, my homeroom teacher who taught social studies was Mr. Fowler and he was ... I think one thing was he was so tall. He was about six-six and I had never met anybody quite that tall before. But, he was very interesting. His wife was from Columbia, South America, and he was fluent in Spanish. He was just a very interesting fellow and he really inspired me as far as to a love of history. And then, when I was in the eighth grade, I had another very special teacher. His name was Mr. Pitts and he was a World War II veteran. But he was teaching us algebra and English which was, maybe, a strange combination there, but he was quite an interesting fellow also.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. The... But you were in the new high school...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...so that must have been exciting, it was new and shiny...
MRS. GRITZNER: Fairly...
MR. MCDANIEL: ... fairly shiny.
MRS. GRITZNER: I have to say that when I got to the high school, I didn't think of it as being new at that time, but it's ... Well, see, I didn't get to the high school until 1961.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... When did they move in there? Was that...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I believe it was around 1953.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I was thinking. Yeah, that's true. Well, maybe the new had been... had worn off.
MRS. GRITZNER: It was worn out by then. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Or the kids had helped the newness wear off a little bit.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, by the time my class got to the high school, because we were the first wave of the Baby Boomers, there was a huge number of students at the high school. By the time I graduated from high school, there were around, and I think I'm correct, around 1,800 students.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And when I was a senior in high school, I remember looking out the window and seeing the round buildings going up and, of course, now they've already been demolished. But they were being built at that time to accommodate what was the rest of the wave of Baby Boomers coming up. But I've been told that my sister's class, the class of 1967, was the largest to ever graduate from Oak Ridge High and there were 600 in her class. There were 500 in my class.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness. My goodness.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't believe the classes in this current high school's nearly that much.
MR. MCDANIEL: I think it's about 1,400 total students. But, that was... Now it includes ninth grade.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And see, we were just tenth through ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Tenth through 12th.
MRS. GRITZNER: Twelfth.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's true. So what was dating like in Oak Ridge. What were some typical things young people did on dates in Oak Ridge? That you can talk about.
MRS. GRITZNER: I think going to the movies, going out to eat, perhaps. But that was pretty typical.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was there any place special that you would go and hang out and eat or...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I can remember going to the Oak Terrace to eat (laughs) on a couple of dates. Course, movies were very popular, and going to some of these dances that the Ethel Howell Studio had was also another typical thing. Going to some basketball games, some football games.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was there a, like, a hang out?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, yes, and I know that people that are a little older than me have often talked about the Blue Circle and I have, I can dimly remember going around the Blue Circle, but by the time I was in high school, Shoney's was the more popular place to circle and I can remember going in my car or with someone else, another teenager, and we would keep circling around Shoney's. I'm not sure how Shoney's ...
MR. MCDANIEL: They call that cruising, I guess.
MRS. GRITZNER: I'm not sure how happy Shoney's was about that, but that was one of the activities.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when Shoney's was about 50 yards to the left of where it is now, or to the right, I remember.
MRS. GRITZNER: Probably something like that, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: 'Cause I remember... I remember, I grew up in Kingston and we came to Shoney's, like, almost every Friday night, you know. But it... It moved. The old Shoney's was there and they built a new one right next to it and tore the old one down.
MRS. GRITZNER: I don't even remember that myself.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was the drive-in movie theater here when you were a teenager?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, as a matter of fact, I'd almost forgotten that. But yes, located off of Illinois Avenue.
MR. MCDANIEL: About where Kroger is.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, well, yes, right... Just up a little bit to the left of that. In fact, a Holiday Inn used to be very close to them. And I remember going to several movies with a date there, to the drive-in movies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Was...? Now, did you venture out very often to Knoxville or different places?
MRS. GRITZNER: You know, when I was in high school, I don't remember going to Knoxville that often on a date. But, now, my family, you know, when I was growing up, we used to go to Knoxville every Sunday after church and eat out at a restaurant there. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. And my mother liked to go shopping in Knoxville, too, so she would take us girls there quite often for shopping.
MR. MCDANIEL: To downtown Knoxville?
MRS. GRITZNER: To downtown Knoxville. Gay Street.
MR. MCDANIEL: Go to Miller's?
MRS. GRITZNER: Miller's, absolutely. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Absolutely, absolutely...
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, when the new Rich's was built, we would go there, too, so I remember doing quite a bit of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. So, you graduated high school in '64?
MRS. GRITZNER: Correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what happened then?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, then I started college at the University of Tennessee. But one interesting thing about before I started college -- the summer before I started college but I had already graduated from high school -- I was a summer worker out at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MRS. GRITZNER: And, my father, by that time, had been at the Y-12 plant for several years but I got just a clerical job and I did have to have a clearance, though. I was told later that my clearance investigation took three months because I had just been in Oak Ridge all my entire life, versus six months that was usually required for other investigations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Clearance investigations, and so...
MR. MCDANIEL: They knew where you'd been the whole time, didn't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. And I did have a "Q" clearance which was a secret clearance.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. GRITZNER: ... when I worked that summer.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, a couple of other summers while I was a college student, I spent working as a summer student at Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember an interesting incident that happened one of those summers. I had gone with some other college friends of mine to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory cafeteria for lunch and then, when we walked back to our building we took a shortcut through an alleyway and we usually did this, but later that afternoon, we were called back and asked... Well, they had to test us for radiation because apparently there had been a radiation spill in that alley, sometime during that day. But, fortunately, my friends and I were fine.
MR. MCDANIEL: You were good.
MRS. GRITZNER: We didn't seem to have any radiation. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Well, that's good. Did you...? Now, did you work any when you were in high school? Did you have any summer jobs?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. Now I did some volunteer work when I was in high school. I was a volunteer Red Cross worker for the Red Cross swim program during the summer times at the great, big, huge municipal pool.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... And I guess that was a favorite hangout during the summer.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, I should have mentioned that. During the summer, I can remember my friends and me going to the swimming pool and spending all day there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Now, when you were growing up, did they still sound the horn at, like, 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening? 'Cause...
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, they did.
MR. MCDANIEL: They did? Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. And, you know, when I was growing up and I think, really, most of the time when my daughters were growing up here in Oak Ridge, they had air raid sirens and, I mean, they're still up there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And they do test 'em, I know, once a week, but we had them in those days also and they would test them once a week. And also, when I was growing up in Oak Ridge, and this was probably the 1950s, we all knew about evacuation routes that we were to take if the air raid siren went off and we were told to evacuate. The people on the east end of town here were told to evacuate to Jellico, Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: I've heard that story before, that...
MRS. GRITZNER: That's a true story.
MR. MCDANIEL: ... get in a line and walk to Jellico. (laughter) Oh, my goodness.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I do remember another interesting thing when I was in elementary school...
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess Dave Miller told me that story.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, really?
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you remember Dave Miller?
MRS. GRITZNER: No, I don't.
MR. MCDANIEL: Dave is, probably, he may be a little bit younger than you. He went to Elm Grove and, you know, and he tells the story about that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I remember being going to Elm Grove, and this was, like, the early 1950s, that we had not only fire drills, but disaster drills or bomb drills.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, this was the Cold War.
MRS. GRITZNER: Cold War years.
MR. MCDANIEL: It really was. And, you know, the whole Cuban Missile Crisis, you know, that was when you were in high school, of course, but...
MRS. GRITZNER: But even before then, I mean, people during the 1950s really worried that World War III was going to start with the Soviet Union. And I can remember my father giving serious consideration to building a bomb shelter in our backyard.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MRS. GRITZNER: No. He never did, but he talked about it, he talked about it quite a bit.
MR. MCDANIEL: I remember seeing... I remember seeing advertisements in the old newspaper for an old company that was selling bomb shelters in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, I'm sure there were some people who did.
MR. MCDANIEL: I've been in one. I have been in one, so. Yeah, people were terrified, weren't they?
MRS. GRITZNER: Sure, they were really worried that there was going to be a World War III.
MR. MCDANIEL: And also, Oak Ridge was probably a good target for anybody that wanted to attack.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, that's another thing. They felt that Oak Ridge would be near the top of the list of targets.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: That may have been one reason why, as school children, we were given a dog tag.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MRS. GRITZNER: And this was... I remember wearing this when I was in elementary school and it has my name on it and my father's name.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And my address and my phone number and my birth date. I, for many years, thought this was unique to Oak Ridge, but I have talked to some people who said, "Oh, well, we wore dog tags." during those years in other communities. So maybe it was just symptomatic of the Cold War.
MR. MCDANIEL: It could be... I was, I mean, of course, I was... I'm a product of the '60s, grew up in the '60s, but in Roane, in Kingston, but I had dog tags as well.
MRS. GRITZNER: Did you have them? So, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: But that was still, kind of... The Cold War was still going on.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, yes, definitely. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So anyway, you graduated high school and you go to UT.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And... Tell me about that.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, at the University of Tennessee, I majored in political science and minored in history and, don't ask me why. Those subjects really didn't do me any good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, what were you planning on doing with those?
MRS. GRITZNER: I am not sure. I guess I had in my mind there would be some kind of job, perhaps in Washington, D.C., that I could use my degrees with, but, as it turned out, that did not happen.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went to UT and graduated?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, I graduated in 1968.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. And I'd gotten married just the day before I graduated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MRS. GRITZNER: So, after graduation, my husband and I both were working at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you. Ok, ok, all right. So you settled...
MRS. GRITZNER: Settled in Oak Ridge -- we lived over on Nebraska Avenue for a few years. We had our first child, a daughter, Karen Elizabeth, and then, when she was 18 months old, we moved to 110 Baltimore Drive where I still live.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And in 1975, We had a second daughter, Kristin Louise, and those two daughters went to Woodland Elementary School when they were growing up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, Jefferson Junior High School. The new Jefferson Junior High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: The new Jefferson Junior High School.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then Oak Ridge High School. They're both high school graduates here, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you... You're proud that your daughters could grow up in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I really was. I felt that they were able to take advantage of the excellent school system and I think that they had lots of opportunities. They were involved in dancing; they were involved with piano and clarinet lessons, Scout troops. There were just a lot of good opportunities for them while they were growing up in Oak Ridge. But, I think, the same held true for me also.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there any particular people that, maybe, just like you, you had these teachers, that, like, in the community that you remember had a real impact on your daughter, your daughters, either one of your daughters, like Scout leaders, or, you know, dance teachers, or, you know, whatever?
MRS. GRITZNER: Hmmm... I'd have to give that some thought. I am not sure I could come up with a name just right now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: I know that... Well, I can think of one. My youngest daughter is a professional clarinetist.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: And she, from the time she was in junior high until she graduated from high school, she took clarinet lessons from Martha Domiano who is still now, principal clarinetist in the Oak Ridge Symphony.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: Which, I'm sure; she had an impact on my daughter's training.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now, where's your daughter...?
MRS. GRITZNER: My youngest daughter, who is a professional clarinetist ended up going to UT and getting her degree in clarinet performance but then she went on to Ohio State University, got a Master's degree in clarinet performance, and then auditioned for the Air Force band. She was accepted into the Air Force and was stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio for many years, but presently, she is stationed at Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, so she's still in the service.
MRS. GRITZNER: So she's still in the ... Yeah, well she plans to ... Well, she's making a career of it, seems like. And she loves her job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh... Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, my oldest daughter was able to take advantage of the education program here. She knew, by the time she was 10 years old, that she wanted to be a teacher, so, perhaps some of the teachers at Woodland Elementary School may have inspired her. And so, when she went to University of Tennessee, she entered into the five-year education program there and then interned for a year at Glenwood Elementary School...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did she? Ok, all right...
MRS. GRITZNER: And she got her Master's degree in education. Then she spent seven years teaching at Willow Brook Elementary School in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Teaching kindergarten.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: But during those years, she was married and by the time she started having children, she became a full time mother.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly. How did you see things differently for your daughters in Oak Ridge than they were for you and your sister? I mean, what are some of the differences that you saw? Good or bad, it doesn't matter.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I think that by the time they were going to school, the population of Oak Ridge had become a little more diverse. When I was in school in the 1950s and early '60s, so many of my classmates' parents were highly educated, were children of scientists and engineers. And many of them had parents who came to Oak Ridge during the war years or shortly thereafter.
MR. MCDANIEL: Shortly thereafter.
MRS. GRITZNER: And were involved in some highly secretive work. But by the time my children were going to school, there was not as many children who were -- whose parents were that highly educated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: I mean, there were still some. There's still a lot of smart, smart kids, but it was... It was a little bit less at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: We noticed this morning... We just found out this morning one of Oak Ridge young ladies is a Rhodes' scholar.
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes, I saw that. That is fantastic. And there is still a number of highly intelligent students in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was more... became more diverse. More...
MRS. GRITZNER: And, actually, I think that diversity comes from the cemesto housing, that early housing in Oak Ridge, although you don't really see a cemesto now the way it was during the war years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: They've all been renovated to some extent, but a large part of that cemesto housing is now rental housing and sometimes that has attracted some people that, maybe, are not, well, as highly desirable in a community as you would like to see.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this has affected the schools. I can see it, definitely effected the schools.
MR. MCDANIEL: I understand that the school system now, the overall school system in Oak Ridge, 50% of the students have free or reduced lunch.
MRS. GRITZNER: I'm not surprised. I think there are probably a large percentage of those students who need more services available to them, special education services.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: My daughter being a teacher at Willow Brook for a number of years and now doing a large amount of substituting at Woodland, she says even from the time that she taught years ago, she can see a huge difference.
MR. MCDANIEL: Does she live here in Oak Ridge?
MRS. GRITZNER: She lives here in Oak Ridge. She and her husband live here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So... Just as you grew up here and she grew up here, her children are going to grow up here.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: At least for a little while, you know.
MRS. GRITZNER: When you asked me about some differences, I did think of another difference. I think that the opportunity for sports, for girls to become involved in sports.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Was much more so for my daughters than it was for me growing up in the 1950s. For instance, when I was in high school, there was not a girls' basketball team.
MR. MCDANIEL: There wasn't?
MRS. GRITZNER: For some reason, they thought that girls should not be playing basketball, but I'm sure, in many other communities that there was excellent girls' basketball program but not in Oak Ridge. I'm just not quite sure if it was the thinking of the principal.
MR. MCDANIEL: I wonder why.
MRS. GRITZNER: Now, it was shortly thereafter that they did institute the girls' basketball program. And then, when my daughters were growing up, there was Girls' Club and they were playing sports like softball and basketball, and I just don't think there was any of that kind of involvement when I was a child.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you think that was just because it was the '50s? I mean, it was just...
MRS. GRITZNER: It may... may have partially been, it was just the '50s and they just...
MR. MCDANIEL: Just the way the culture was...
MRS. GRITZNER: There wasn't that many sports opportunities for girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly... But there were other opportunities for you, I guess, if you chose to be involved in some arts or music or, you said, dance.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right, I took piano lessons for many years from a very well-known piano teacher, Laverne Greer. She was a very prominent piano teacher in the 1950s and '60s. And I took dance lessons from a dance studio, oh, for a short period of time, that was located on Outer Drive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, of course, I'd mentioned the ballroom dance lessons. I was also a member of a Brownie and Girl Scout troop and I think that a lot of girls were involved in those kinds of things.
MR. MCDANIEL: I was going to ask you something, what was it? Oh, do you remember who taught you to swim?
MRS. GRITZNER: I...
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it Red Cross or ...?
MRS. GRITZNER: I took Red Cross swimming lessons but I also took swimming lessons from a very well-known swim teacher, Bobbie Smith.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes. And she was my PE teacher when I was at Jefferson Junior High School. When I was going through elementary school, there was no PE program during that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: None whatsoever. The School had a gymnasium and sometimes our teacher would take us to the gymnasium but most of the time our PE program was simply recess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Recess, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: When we went to Jefferson Junior High School, suddenly, I was in a PE program and it was pretty intense because, at that time, Bobbie Smith was the girls' PE teacher and Coach Orlando, Nick Orlando, was the boys' PE teacher. And they were two very influential teachers at Jefferson during that time in the Oak Ridge school system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. GRITZNER: But, yeah, I can remember well, that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, see, I... I was born in '57 so I was in elementary school in the '60s and I can't remember having a PE class in elementary school. I can't remember having it until I got into middle school.
MRS. GRITZNER: All right, well it may have been common.
MR. MCDANIEL: May have been a common thing back then. Not anymore.
MRS. GRITZNER: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Course, we played hard at recess.
MRS. GRITZNER: I think, you know, kids were outdoors a lot. When I was growing up in Oak Ridge, kids -- it was very common for kids to go outdoors and play all day long outdoors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, absolutely.
MRS. GRITZNER: Their parents wouldn't even know where they were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And, I guess, you know, it's true, they... They'd go out and play and felt... still felt fairly safe even after the gates were opened.
MRS. GRITZNER: After the gates were opened. Well, Oak Ridge had a very low crime rate in the 1950s. I mean, there really wasn't any. I mean, sometimes a purse snatching.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: But, well, that's just about it. And people felt very safe in Oak Ridge. I think, probably, most Oak Ridge residents did not bother to lock their houses or lock their cars.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure they didn't, I'm sure they didn't.
MRS. GRITZNER: So, it was a different time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Obviously you enjoyed growing up in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: I really did.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you enjoy living in Oak Ridge.
MRS. GRITZNER: I do. I think I was almost an adult before I realized how unique it was to be growing up in a city like Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: How different it was from, perhaps, other communities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well once you get... You take it... Like I said earlier, you take it for granted until you see how other people, you know, do things.
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right. Well, children are very adaptable and very accepting, you know, and I just thought everything was normal. I thought it was normal my father worked at a plant and at a place where I could never visit.
MR. MCDANIEL: You could never visit, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And that he wore a badge clipped to his collar every day when he went to work and it was a radiation monitor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: That he would tell me not to touch his shoes. I guess he thought maybe he had radiation on them. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. GRITZNER: And I thought it was normal when we'd go around through the city of Oak Ridge and there would be billboards situated throughout the city that were talking about security. And these messages would be changed every now and then, but it was always about the confidentiality. You know, I'd just think, well, this is normal. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Well, you didn't know any different, did you?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right, right...
MR. MCDANIEL: What else you want to talk about? You got any other good stories or anybody... If you want to say anything bad about somebody, now's your chance. (laughter) But you're awful young... That's usually what I tell folks when I interview 'em, but their usually much, much older than you. (laughter) You got plenty of time.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, I would like to say that I feel very fortunate to have been born in Oak Ridge and to have grown up in Oak Ridge and enjoyed the opportunity of going through an excellent educational system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And, really, this is a nice, pleasant place to raise your children.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I've always believed that. And I hope that I spend the rest of my days in Oak Ridge. I really do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you have any problem with Oak Ridge's, the history of Oak Ridge's foundation? Of its being built here, I mean, is there...? Do you have any -- how shall I put it? -- problem with Oak Ridge's history? I mean, personally.
MRS. GRITZNER: Not really. I think that when Oak Ridge was built, most people felt that this was a wartime effort and, even though I know that people had to be told to leave, to leave here, the farming area -- it was a farming area and I'm sure there was some resentment on that -- but I think that people were so involved in a total, all-out war effort back in those days, and they wanted this war to end. And this is why the Manhattan Project came about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: They wanted to build the bomb before Germany, or, we thought Germany was going to...
MR. MCDANIEL: We thought Germany...
MRS. GRITZNER: But we also, by the time it was going to be dropped on Japan, we were interested in ending this war before any more American casualities could happen, especially if we had to invade the island of Japan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly. Now, did you work, as an adult, in Oak Ridge? Or were you a homemaker?
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, as an adult, I graduated from UT and worked several years at the Y-12 plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Ok.
MRS. GRITZNER: And then, when my first daughter was born, I became a homemaker.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: Then later, I, let's see, it was around, I guess in about 1985, both my children were still in elementary school, but I started working as a tempo worker at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, which just meant I was assigned to different places...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: ...throughout. But I was only there a year when I saw the opportunity to apply for a job at Robertsville Junior High School, so I was school secretary at that place for 10 years and then I had re-married and wanted a less chaotic job...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. GRITZNER: ...than being school secretary.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. GRITZNER: And went to a teacher assistant for the fifth grade. And I retired at the end of 2002.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, who...? Who was principal when you were secretary?
MRS. GRITZNER: Thomas Hayes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was he?
MRS. GRITZNER: Tom Hayes. And he was really an excellent administrator.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh, right... I see where it's on the agenda to name the gym after him at Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: Oh, I think that is well deserved. (laughter) I really do. I still run into him occasionally and I think that would be a very nice honor for him.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then you said you were a substitute, or a teacher's aide for fifth grade?
MRS. GRITZNER: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. At Robertsville.
MRS. GRITZNER: And this was when both Robertsville and Jefferson went from being junior highs to becoming middle schools.
MR. MCDANIEL: ...a middle school...
MRS. GRITZNER: With the fifth through the eighth grade. And the ninth grade went on to the high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: 'Cause it used to be just seventh, eighth and ninth, didn't it?
MRS. GRITZNER: Right. In fact, when I started working at Robertsville, it was seventh, eighth and ninth, but just a couple of years later they had the sixth grade come to the junior high and so it was sixth grade through ninth and that was a fairly large student population. Quite a lot of difference, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MRS. GRITZNER: But then, when they became a middle school and ninth grade went on to the high school, they added fifth grade. It was my understanding that they did this to avoid having to build another additional elementary school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly. Well, so, anything else you want to talk about?
MRS. GRITZNER: Let's see... Can I glance at my notes...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, go right ahead.
MRS. GRITZNER: ... for just a minute and see if there's anything that I missed that... (papers rustle)
MR. MCDANIEL: Feel free.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, one thing I'd like to mention is that it seems like right now there is a lot of interest about the early, historical days of Oak Ridge and possibly because a new book came out just recently, 'The Girls of the Atomic City.' And this is a book focusing on the women who came to Oak Ridge who were, I think, in some ways, recruited to come to Oak Ridge and work on the project and they didn't know what their work was about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, they didn't know what their work was for.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. GRITZNER: I was asked to recently speak at a book club for my sister-in-law who lives in Marion, North Carolina. And so, just a couple of weeks ago, I went over there and talked to her book club about growing up in Oak Ridge. Those women really seemed fascinated to hear about the years of growing up in Oak Ridge, what it was like.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. GRITZNER: And I've just seen so many people in Oak Ridge who are interested about the early history. I have checked out that book from the public library where they have told me that they have five copies of that book and that it is never on the shelf.
MR. MCDANIEL: Almost never on the shelves, that's true.
MRS. GRITZNER: There is always a long waiting list of people waiting to check that book out. So I thought that was very interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: It is interesting. It is. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us. I really appreciate it.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, thank you, thank you, I appreciate the opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: It's nice to speak to somebody who grew up in Oak Ridge and, basically, lived their entire life in Oak Ridge, you know.
MRS. GRITZNER: That's true.
MR. MCDANIEL: You have a unique perspective.
MRS. GRITZNER: Well, thank you. I have enjoyed having the opportunity to talk to you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Very good. Thank you.
MRS. GRITZNER: Thank you.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mrs. Gritzner’s request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]