I was on a UA flight from SFO to EWR the other day. The flight commenced with the captain getting on the PA system and announcing in no uncertain terms that the seatbelt sign was mandatory. He pointed out that passengers would become, um, disgruntled if they were forced to land at the nearest airport because of some person still standing when he/she should have been seated; all buckled up nice and shiny. No "please" or "thank you" was appended to either the initial announcement or to its reiteration during a patch of chop. This reiteration was, however, accompanied by the observation that "Maybe you didn't hear me the first time...."

This isn't intended as a complaint about crew behavior. Rather, it prompted me to wonder if worst-case passenger behavior might have deteriorated (not by me, my friends, and certainly not by thee) to the point that the captain felt he had no choice but to word his announcement emphatically. Perhaps recently he had been captaining a flight where there was an uncooperative-passenger Incident. Flight crew and FAs have more responsibility than I would be willing to take on absent serious thought.

In much of the world it seems as if PAX behavior has improved. I've been around the world twice since February of this year. The UA flight cited above, was only the 2nd US domestic flight on the entire itinerary. The other domestic US flight was the same route but on CO. Similar announcements on CO, while being as effective, were altogether milder in tone.

This last batch of trips included more domestic flights within mainland China than the total of all of the other segments I flew. I've heard horror stories, but on every intra-China flight, PAX always waited until the A/C was parked at its gate (or in its assigned space on the tarmac) before diving for their stuff in the overhead bins. Economy passengers always waited patiently for 1st or C/D class PAX, who are closer to the door, to deplane before they did.

Quoting Socrates17 (Thread starter):I was on a UA flight from SFO to EWR the other day. The flight commenced with the captain getting on the PA system and announcing in no uncertain terms that the seatbelt sign was mandatory. He pointed out that passengers would become, um, disgruntled if they were forced to land at the nearest airport because of some person still standing when he/she should have been seated; all buckled up nice and shiny. No "please" or "thank you" was appended to either the initial announcement or to its reiteration during a patch of chop. This reiteration was, however, accompanied by the observation that "Maybe you didn't hear me the first time...."

I wish I could email the captain and congratulate him on his no-nonsense approach - sometimes as a pax I feel like telling other pax to sit their fat arses in their seats - they may not care if they break their stupid necks in turbulence - but I see no reason why I should have to risk becoming tetraplegic if their unrestrained body flying about the cabin should strike me .

In my opinion too often crews err on the side of "being nice" or avoiding confrontation with difficult pax - it's a safety issue folks and you just know that the same people who ignore all these announcements will be the first to sue the airline if it all turns horribly wrong because "they should have told us it was dangerous to wander around during turbulence "

I have flown many many times domestic within China/ HK and have noticed that the flight attendants for local airlines don't enforce the seat belt rules hardly at all. On more than 3 occasions off the top of my head, I have witnessed actual groups of passengers not putting their seat belts on at any phase of the flight, gate to gate. None of the FA's said a word either, but i think this depends on the airline, as I said above.

Quoting Socrates17 (Thread starter):Perhaps recently he had been captaining a flight where there was an uncooperative-passenger Incident. Flight crew and FAs have more responsibility than I would be willing to take on absent serious thought.

Well, as you know rudeness it is usually not a matter of airline policy. It just depends on the crew. Maybe you had the same crew that I flew with two years ago - the announcements were harsh and the crew was very unpleasant. This was on a 777 and there was no room for my (standard size) carry-on since I had boarded late due to a tight connection. I was first told to just store it in one of the bins in the almost empty business sectiion, which I did. Later I went up front to retrieve my bag and was immediately yelled at by a cabin attendant. I explained the situation and was threatened that if I didn't leave the C section immediately, the captain would have to physically remove me and land at the nearest airport where I would be handed over to the police. Now you have to know that I am a very frequent flier and never talk to crews in an unfriendly manner, so this response really shocked me.

Usually crews get agitated when there is something wrong with the flight or when they have recently had a bad experience. We're all humans, but of course there is no excuse for such behavior.

Crew members are indeed human. So being human means sometimes you snap. So therefore maybe he had one of the posters from Anet that just type nastiness on the flight and started their "I know everything" and "you shouldn't make a dime" bull. hahahaha (Sorry I just snaped) Nothing rude to the poster of this thread. All joking aside. I would ask one of the flight attendants next time, something like. "Has something changed? That was a bit direct?"

I encoutered some rudeness on my LH flight from BOS to FRA about seatbelt. Specifically, the sealbelt sign NEVER went off during the entire 7 hour flight. We had a pretty smooth ride 95% of the time, and the "bumps" were very minor by any standard. Yet, the captain decided not to turn off the sign, which technically would mean that we should all be seated and secured. That's rather unreasonable to ask of pax on a 7 hour flight, obviously, and in fact many people were walking around, doing things, going to be the bathroom, or just hanging out. For the most part, nobody seemed to care (as they shouldn't -- the captain should've turned the sign off so people will know when it is actually important to fasten the seatbelt.

Then -- when I went to the back of the plane in the middle of the flight to get some water from the F/A, one of them had the audacity to ask me to sit back down because the seatbelt sign is on and thus I should be seated. I got my water, but I was not happy. Since it was on for the entire duration, wheel up to wheel down, it is basically impossible to actually comply with the rule. I guess I could've called the FA to get me a water, but I wanted to walk a little too. For that, I got scolded. Not terribly rude, but given the circumstances, I thought it was at least uncalled for.

So sometimes crews can indeed be unreasonable with these things. Not turning off the sign at all during a 7+ hours flight is just ridiculous. On my way back the captain did the sensible thing and turned it off fairly early on.

Quoting Flyingexpat (Reply 2):I have flown many many times domestic within China/ HK and have noticed that the flight attendants for local airlines don't enforce the seat belt rules hardly at all. On more than 3 occasions off the top of my head, I have witnessed actual groups of passengers not putting their seat belts on at any phase of the flight, gate to gate. None of the FA's said a word either, but i think this depends on the airline, as I said above.

Yeah... I've seen this happen. I think the mainland airlines generally don't enforce it. It is also partly apathy I think -- some of the pax seem to think it's their god given right to not fasten seatbelt, and no amount of prodding from the FA will do the trick. So... the FA stop bothering. It's a shame, especially if turbulance or something hits.

1/ Flying over the Colorado Rockies in a 747 we hit windshear during food service. (There was no warning and the seatbelt sign was not on.) The food cart became airborne and landed on an FA's leg - breaking it. From that moment on, my belt has been fastened whenever I was seated, sign or no sign.

2/ Flying Thai in Business from Heathrow to BKK, the American passenger sitting next to me was, shall we say, volumetrically enhanced. Being far from svelte myself, I have no issues with this, and she did fit with no problem even in the old Thai "Spanish Inquisition" C class seats. Unfortunately, three plastic shopping bags full of purchases from LHR duty free did not.
Nor was there room in the overhead nor were was there a "seat in front of you"/us because we had bulkhead seats. Consequently, three bags remained defiantly perched in her lap from the moment she got onto the aircraft until she made a dash for the door at Bangkok. Complaints to the cabin crew and even attempts to get a message to the pilot did no good. The only reason I am tasteless enough to bring up the subject of her girth is that when I say her carry-on bags were perched precariously on her "lap" I need to convey the inherent peril in the situation if we hit chop or wind-shear.

(Oh. One more related point. The existence of the Chunnel may make this moot, but, take it from my personal, painful experience: It is a really good idea to keep your seatbelts fastened taking a hover-ferry over the English Channel.)

Flyingexpat - On both China Eastern and China Southern, flying into and out of Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and Qingtao, our seatbelts were checked on every flight.Maybe they were putting on a good show because I look Western, but my wife is Korean and she says they checked her belt even when flying without me. Unlike the Thai incident above, on over 20 flights, the cabin crew were quite insistent that all luggage be properly stowed. Due to my Carry-On-Baggage-from-Hell (two laptops and assorted attachments) this sometimes turned into a challenge, but the FA always found a place in the galley or somewhere. I know that China Southern, in particular, is trying to upgrade their image so maybe they have changed. Also Air China Qingtao to ICN and v.v. checked our belts. Never tried Xiamen, Shandong, or Shanghai airlines. Should I assume they are not up to (I can't believe I'm typing this) China Southern or China Eastern's standards?

Hawk - that's the most logical explanation. Picture it: A group of college kids coming back from (I know the timing is wrong but you get my drift) Spring Break.

764 - OK. You win. Your story was MUCH worse than mine.

With my travel patterns, I just found it weird that a group of US passengers is either treated with or (an even more depressing thought) NEEDS to be treated with a more stern manner than in China where having large numbers of middle class travelers is a relatively new phenomenon. (Where having a large Middle Class, at least along the coast, is a relatively new phenomenon.)

Thanks for your responses. Been a long time since I posted here. (Too busy traveling - and OOPS, Friday night, back to Korea on Asiana.)

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 6):Yet, the captain decided not to turn off the sign, which technically would mean that we should all be seated and secured. That's rather unreasonable to ask of pax on a 7 hour flight, obviously, and in fact many people were walking around, doing things, going to be the bathroom, or just hanging out.

Did you see the forecast enroute weather? Do you know if moderate or worse turbulence was forecast? Most likely not. So, with that said, what gives you the right to criticize the Captain for not turning off the seat belt? Sometimes there is turbulence forecast in the NAT tracks, Would you rather someone get plastered to the ceiling before the seatbelt sign was on?

My own personal opinion is if there is a chance of turbulence, I'll leave the seatbelt sign on. I'd rather inconvenience the pax rather than have to land due to a medical emergency. Personally, it's passengers such as you who I really dread having on my plane!!

Never heard such a rude statement from a Captain over the intercom. Very strange.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):Did you see the forecast enroute weather? Do you know if moderate or worse turbulence was forecast? Most likely not. So, with that said, what gives you the right to criticize the Captain for not turning off the seat belt? Sometimes there is turbulence forecast in the NAT tracks, Would you rather someone get plastered to the ceiling before the seatbelt sign was on?

True, but at the same time, if you leave it on for 7 hours, you must expect that some pax get up to use the restroom, get things out of the overhead, etc. Just they should do it carefully and quickly. But to claim that you will land the plane and have the guy arrested on such a long flight due to the sign is not reasonable or professional.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):Never heard such a rude statement from a Captain over the intercom. Very strange

Please go back and read the posts. My reply was not to the original post, it was to the comments about a LH flight. That post had nothing about any PA by the Capt. In addition, the writer said it was on 95% of the time. Understand, those things do happen!

However, if there is moderate-sever turbulence forecast, I will leave the seat belt sign on. Even for 13 hours! Passenger safety is my responsibility.

Quoting Socrates17 (Thread starter):Perhaps recently he had been captaining a flight where there was an uncooperative-passenger Incident.

This happens every day, all day long. Most people who fly never experience the kind of turbulence that can cause injury, but it happens.

If we don't require people to sit and be buckled up and they get injured, a lawsuit will be filed before the plane touches down. Even when we require them to be seated and they ignore us, they sue anyway.

It's better to be overly cautious concerning customer safety than to be lax and have injured customers.

The stern warning probably comes out of frustration that so many highly intelligent, law-abiding, decent people choose to ignore the rules.

i totally agree with what the captain did and also with philsquares.when the sign is turned on...i will check that paxs are strapped in...but if its for a long time..there will be some passengers who will ignore it eventually thinking they are invisible...as far as i am concerned..i have done my job and i have told them to be careful if they have too use the toilet..if they dont want to strap in after being told to....they deserve to break something if turbulence happens...i am sure it wll teach them a lesson n the next time they fly i can bet u 100%they will strap in all throught the flight.

The author flew on a flight from ANC to HNL aboard a NW 757-351. The "Fasten Seat Belt" sign was on the entire time, from wheels up to wheels down. Passengers naturally violated the sign at certain times to use the bathroom, but it did not turn into the extreme situation as has been described in this post.

The point, however, was that the author went in to check the weather maps the flight crew used. He was quite shocked when instead of the expected weather fronts with lots of enroute turbulence he found smooth sailing. No explanation could be found for the crew's decision to leave the sign on the entire flight.

Without exception, the flight crew always has our best interests at heart. However, it would occasionally seem that their logic escapes us. For some reason, a very small minority neglects to remember that human bodily functions need attending to. If they didn't, airline wouldn't put lavatories on airplanes. I am not advocating disobeying crew members' instructions, but if passengers are not allowed to tend to basic needs, that is going to be one nasty smelling airplane at the end of a trip!!

Let us not forget, many adult passengers act like spoiled children, if the sign is on, too bad, I can do what I want. Many need pails, and shovels, but when there is LITTLE enforcement, like children, they will push the limit. As we all know, usually after about 10 minutes or so the first warrior decides now is the time for the laptop, again, usually no flight attendant will challenge this, so on it goes.

We all know carriers from a certain area are not known for polite friendly staff. Now they think security is a reason for it..... no wonder they are all in trouble. Come on, if the crew are unfriendly and rude people will not fly them again.

I PAY for my ticket and will not have staff ordering me to sit down, dont move and shut up. My seat belt is on for the whole flight but rude crew... NO!

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 8):Did you see the forecast enroute weather? Do you know if moderate or worse turbulence was forecast? Most likely not. So, with that said, what gives you the right to criticize the Captain for not turning off the seat belt? Sometimes there is turbulence forecast in the NAT tracks, Would you rather someone get plastered to the ceiling before the seatbelt sign was on?

My own personal opinion is if there is a chance of turbulence, I'll leave the seatbelt sign on. I'd rather inconvenience the pax rather than have to land due to a medical emergency. Personally, it's passengers such as you who I really dread having on my plane!!

PhilSquares, please re-read my original post. I said the ride was not bumpy 95% of the time, and only slightly so for the other 5%. I personally saw and felt no reason why the light was on 100% of the time (wheel up to wheel down -- it was never off). Unless the weather forecast was so severe as to stretch through the entire Atlantic, from Boston to Frankfurt -- which I find extremely unlikely, especially given that we encountered basically none -- I find the choice of leaving the lights on for the entire flight ridiculous. I did not fall asleep at all either, so it wasn't as if I missed a 3 hour period when he turned it off. (And for the record, I always keep my belt on when seated -- I just needed to go to bathroom and wanted to also get a drink!).

What I had more problem with was the fact that the FAs were blatently ignoring the fact that many people were up and about, walking around, etc, and yet told me to sit down because the sign was on. They even put out (and kept refilling) a tray in the galley for pax to take drinks from (which would mean they expected pax to walk to the galley to take them). Now, how am I supposed to interpret that?

Quoting Socrates17 (Thread starter):This last batch of trips included more domestic flights within mainland China than the total of all of the other segments I flew. I've heard horror stories, but on every intra-China flight, PAX always waited until the A/C was parked at its gate (or in its assigned space on the tarmac) before diving for their stuff in the overhead bins. Economy passengers always waited patiently for 1st or C/D class PAX, who are closer to the door, to deplane before they did.

Really? I think that Europeans passengers are a pain when it comes to flying, but on the five domestic Chinese flights I've done, it was mad. The seatbelt signs were on for the entire flights on four of the flights, even no turbulence on the three. That did not mean anything to anyone. Almost as the plane touched the ground, every stood up in the aisle, taking in their cellphones and looking for something in the bin..

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 20):Another funny thing about seatbelts in China. I stepped into the front seat of a cab, fastened the seatbelt, and the driver started to laugh as had I just told the funniest joke in the world

That's why they don't have seatbelts in the backseat of the car

But seriously... I think it does depend on the flight you're taking as to whether the pax all try to get up ASAP or not. I've been on a COEWR-HKG where the pax got up while we were still taxiing in HKG. A lot of them were booked on onward flights to their final destinations in China (you can always tell by what they speak, if not by what they look like). I don't really understand what the rush is, since you can't get off anyway. Problem is, in China things are often so crowded and packed that you feel you HAVE to go first or you lose out. It's the same mentality at work here.

As the flying public gets more used to it I think it will improve. There's only so much the crew can do. If half the plane decides to stand up there's very little you can actually do -- it's not like you can arrest them all.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 15):So Phil, how do you handle the pax that needs to use the rest room or wants to stretch to avoid DVT?

Will you preclude the crew from using the restroom as well for 13 hours? Afterall their safety is your responsibility too isn't it?

I'll note that the forum members taking the captains side of this argument are ignoring these issues completely.....

First of all, I have never left the seat belt sign on an entire flight. I have had it on for a period of 4 hours or so. I hate to use the word "never", but you'd probably never have a flight where the sign was left on the entire time. I know I have had the F/A call up to ask if the sign could be turned off to accommodate the pax needs.

There is a fine line between suspending cabin service and having the seat belt sign on. I guess that's what I get paid for. The cabin crew is more used to the aircraft movement and more responsible. However, I have suspended the cabin service and had the F/As sit down for an extended period of time. If that's the case, I will make a PA and explain the situation. Stressing this is for everyone's safety!

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):First of all, I have never left the seat belt sign on an entire flight. I have had it on for a period of 4 hours or so. I hate to use the word "never", but you'd probably never have a flight where the sign was left on the entire time. I know I have had the F/A call up to ask if the sign could be turned off to accommodate the pax needs.

In all my flights I've never had the seatbelt sign on for the entire flight either, unless it's one of those 30 minute hops. This was surprising for me too.

I don't know what the rationale was, but regardless, it was pretty weird. I thought about asking the F/As to ask the captain, but I was lazy and people were disregarding it anyway.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):The point, however, was that the author went in to check the weather maps the flight crew used.

And how was this accomplished? How do you know it was the "same" maps?

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 19):Unless the weather forecast was so severe as to stretch through the entire Atlantic, from Boston to Frankfurt -- which I find extremely unlikely,

Extremely unlike, but entirely possible. I work transatlantic flight almost exclusively. I don't remember ever having the seatbelt sign illuminated the entire trip. But the guys up front are paid big bucks to safely transport the customers. It's imperative that we not second guess their judgement.

Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.

25 Brido
: **Maybe they FORGOT to turn off the Seat Belt Sign!** Believe me, it happens. It is not on a checklist, and anyway what do they care? Pilots are great

26 Ikramerica
: Yes, I've had long flights where this happened, and it was explained as you state, and everyone was relatively understanding. On one flight DFW-NRT,

27 MarshalN
: That's what I thought they should've done, or at least not tell me in a stern voice to sit back down because of the sign. Thus my feeling that they w

28 Flybynight
: Having the seatbelt sign on for the entire Atlantic crossing is weird. I would think he forgot it was on. Usually you can change the altitude to find