Wednesday, July 27, 2016

In the aftermath of last month's Brexit vote, there was an outpouring of concern in Europe that the British decision would embolden similar separatist movements across the continent. Earlier Wednesday, this is precisely what happened when Catalan nationalists voted to approve a plan to secede from Spain, defying the nation’s Constitutional Court and challenging acting Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who is currently in political limbo as he struggles to form a government.

The decision was approved by 72 regional MPs out of 135. Ten MPs from the CSP group linked to Podemos, Partido Popular and Ciudadanos walked out of the assembly and the Socialists did not vote. A recent poll shows that 48% of the Catalan population currently supports independence compared with 43% against it.

The vote, symbolic as it may be, was one of defiance toward Madrid as Spain's Constitutional Court had in recent days prohibited the regional parliament in Barcelona from voting on it. As Ansa reports, the resolution was presented by the pro-secessionist groups Junts Pel Si and CUP. The anti-secessionist parties - PP, Ciudadanos and PSC - have spoken out against the ''illegality'' of the decision. PP parliamentary chief Xavier Garcia Albiol has said that the act is tantamount to a ''coup'' against the government in Madrid and warned that there will be a price to pay for it. The head of the Socialist party, Pedro Sanchez, said there can be no democracy without common rules, while Albert Rivera, the Catalan-born leader of liberals Ciudadanos, described it as a attack on Spanish democracy. They both have rejected supporting Rajoy’s candidacy to become premier again.

Catalan regional president and pro-secessionist Carles Puidgemont instead says that the position taken by the regional MPs is ''legitimate'' and has in recent months confirmed that the goal is to achieve an independent ''Catalan Republic'' by the end of 2017.

Isn't the double-talk from the anti-secessionists all too predictable? Democracy is about the will of the people, not "common rules". And to call a representative vote that clearly has the support of the majority is not "an attack on Spanish democracy", it is, rather, a democratic attack on Spanish imperialism.

One hopes that the conquered States of America who are only part of the USA due to military invasion and occupation will one day be permitted their own self-determination too. After all, they've been occupied by the USA for considerably less time than Catalonia has been occupied by Spain.

OT: 'Merkel is RUINING our country!' Germans revolt over four savage attacks by Muslims in a week... and blame ISIS terror attacks on the million refugees she welcomed in a yearhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3709396/Merkel-RUINING-country-Germans-revolt-four-savage-attacks-Muslims-week-blame-ISIS-terror-attacks-million-refugees-welcomed-year.html

Funniest part: "Taffy Geiss, a sales assistant from Ingolstadt, said: 'I am Merkel's biggest fan, but I think most people in Germany will now say enough is enough.'"

I'm sorry, but I'm a filthy moderate. I feel as if your political views are bigoted and therefore gross, but nonetheless I come here often to read your political posts because I simply cannot stand the progressive wing that's hell-bent on introducing great-ape personhood, mandatory cremation of the dead, pagan solstice celebrations with free orgies, and communal public schooling with mandatory homosexual pederasty relationships.

The other side is so wicked that it makes the alt-right look not completely disgusting (even though in a normal political climate it would be). So I have no choice but to not oppose you.

I have lived throughout the USA (South, Rust Belt, Upper Midwest, New England, West). The only thing holding the USA together imo is the economy. In the North (Rust Belt, Upper Midwest) there really is no sense of any collective regional identity. New England does seem to have a sense of regional identity, at least in the rural areas, although I have never felt it in big cities such as New York or Boston.

The South is the only region in the USA with a strong, identifiable and unifying culture. Give the South 20 years after the dissolution of the USA, and it will be the cultural, moral and economic center of gravity for North America.

Yes, but I'm willing to hold my nose and not get in your way, and possibly even support you to the extent that it helps defeat a common enemy. Even in World War II the nationalists and communists in China put aside their bickering to fight the Japanese.

'But on one thing, I think, we are all absolutely clear, and that is the terrorists will not prevail.'They are trying to destroy our way of life. They are trying to destroy our values. We have shared values and those values will win through and the terrorists will not win.' This was the French Prime Minister in response to teenagers getting the impressive victory over an 84 years old man an old nuns in the explicit name of their god allah.

So which "our way of life....shared values....those values.." does Mr Valls share with Basques or Spanish or Cantalonians or Portuguese? His life might be brief based on which "shared values" he specifies. But at the moment he isn't, and a vacuum is a very dangerous place.

Yes, "self determination" and "power devolved to locals who know best" are two more platitudes that conservatives love to say, but will never defend in reality, (because they don't really believe it, after all).

More proof that "conservatives" are incapable of actually conserving anything. Impotence is built into the gene.

Whatever will the moderates do when the country breaks apart? How will they ever choose which group to be aligned with? Or rather, which group will want anything to do with them? Of course we all know where moderates generally fall when push comes to shove.

Perhaps we should put all the moderates on a reservation, ya know, for their own safety and general well-being.

I agree the South will most likely be strong when TSHTF. The Great Lakes/Rust Belt-Midwest is utterly pozzed and cucked with very large numbers of Dindus, Hajis and Latrinos to make life exciting but short for the Yankee/Germanic white mix.

IIRC we had a Spaniard here awhile back who was pointing out that Catalonia is actually a leach on the rest of their country, but certain parties nonetheless propagandize against Madrid for their political gain, wailing that their chocolate ration has been decreased from 4 oz. to 5 oz. So it's very much like Scotland in that respect.

The choice is easy for me. The alt-right is ugly, but way less ugly than the progressive wing. Furthermore, because the progressives control everything, you are at a serious disadvantage and anything less than whole-hearted support effectively means supporting the opposition. So I am supporting everything you guys are doing, even the unsavory bits and extremists.

I know a Catalan who when I suggested to him that he was Spanish became outraged, yet - get this - when we voted to Brexit, he, who works in England, was deeply upset. Talk about hypocricy.

Anyway Catalan is as much part of Spain as any other part whatever the Catalans say, and must remain so much as we in England don't suddenly cast the poorest parts adrift. If Catalan does Cat-exit , it will only be in turn swallowed by France.

There is a qualitative difference between England leaving the E.U. and Catalan leaving Spain.

In the spirit of this posting and the comments there-in, may I humbly suggest reading 'Victoria' available at Castalia for very little coin. An interesting and plausible look at 3rd. war/maneuver war. With just a touch or so of 4th. war.

"Second, we on the alt Right have an appreciation of tribalism and identity. We realize that people are not just autonomous individuals. Life gains its meaning through connections to other members of our families, tribes, and nations. Being pro-life flies in the face both of these principles." - "The Pro-Life Temptation, Aylmer Fisher, Radix Journal

If the Internet is a good sample size, then many (if not the majority) of alt-right people deny the existence of infinite innate human worth, which truly is disgusting and anti-Christian to the extreme.

If the Internet is a good sample size, then many (if not the majority) of alt-right people deny the existence of infinite innate human worth, which truly is disgusting and anti-Christian to the extreme.

That may be. Nevertheless, they are on the right side. It will be easier to win them over to the truth than the average Churchian, because the truth does not frighten them. They simply don't recognize enough of it.

Epi wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm a filthy moderate. I feel as if your political views are bigoted and therefore gross, but nonetheless I come here often to read your political posts because I simply cannot stand the progressive wing

What's so bad about bigotry?

I mean it. What's the evil?

The telltale is you use of the descriptive. "Gross is not a moral category. It is a category of taste. And taste as we all know is based in fashion.What you are saying is "I can't support you! You're so unfashionable!"

And that's the point. they've used nothing more than sneering dismissal and assumed superiority to teach 4 generations, including you, that fashion trumps morality.

The Catalans looking to leave Spain are as a rule dirty filthy communists. The best fascist successful Catalans love Spain and know that Catalonia was always part of the Kingdom of Navarra, which merged with Castile to become Spain. If they try to leave the Spanish army should crush the resistance, give the troublemakers a fair trial and shoot them all the next morning. Viva Espagna sempre!

@44 Yes, exactly. The victory of the Alt-Right would likely recreate a more traditional society where abortion would become so rare as to cease to be a major issue. The final outlawing of the procedure would probably pass nearly unnoticed.

I apologize for being naive but does anyone know who coined the term Alt-Right? Additionally, would the term Alpha-Right be a better description, considering the vast amount of people in western society are searching for a strong leader/party and are turning to the Alt-Right for guidance. Finally, do you gentlemen think that the shrieking and wailing about the Alt-Right lately is similar to how women complain about an alpha but cannot stop paying attention to them, especially when considering how effeminate our country has become?

That's weird. I think VD has mentioned that outside of certain groups, socio-sexual rankings are not well known, so it makes bad rhetoric to refer to something you are trying to market in terms unfamiliar with the majority of people.

An alternative to the defunct Republican/Conservative right seems to be effective enough in gaining attention.

I'm from a small town in the South. Dixie South, not Texas. In that small town, the only Sunday Mass is now in Spanish. The south is just as fucked at the rest of the country. Being Scotch-Irish, we might have the guts and guns to turn it around.

Finally, do you gentlemen think that the shrieking and wailing about the Alt-Right lately is similar to how women complain about an alpha but cannot stop paying attention to them, especially when considering how effeminate our country has become?

No. The shrieking and wailing comes from the fact that the alt-right is so alien. Sure some of the ideas put forth don't look all too dissimilar from American conservationism but unlike American conservatism the alt right is growing where it matters most; it attracts young men (and young women to a lesser extent). This makes the alt-right a real threat to cultural marxism, and even worse for the nihilists, the traditional methods used to marginalize aren't working. The alt right is the proverbial barbarian at the gate of progressive society and the leftists are starting to realize that they don't have enough SJWs on the ramparts to repel the invasion.

I believe the Catalonia situation is misunderstood, all those centuries ago when Catalonia became part of Spain, it was for political expediency. I believe it was Pat Buchanan I'm about to shamelessly rip off, be that as it may..... absent the forces that compelled unification; why should unification remain when those forces abate? Catalonia was under pressure from France and decided to make its bed with Spain. With the EU security guarantee to what purpose is the Spain security guarantee? Spain becomes superfluous. The EU will guarantee Catalonia security. This same logic is now manifesting in Italy and the UK. Just as this is true on the macro level (geo-political), it may be true on the micro level (national party). Perhaps the passing of external threats is finally affecting the national political organization of America? This would explain why the Democrat is supporting free trade, big business and the bankers, and the Repub is for constraints on the same. The parties traditional positions are collapsing under stress. Should be interesting to see how it shakes out.

Life gains its meaning through connections to other members of our families, tribes, and nations. Being pro-life flies in the face both of these principles

What the... is this real? It doesn't even make sense. Is not a "fetus" connected to family through its mother? It is a biological product of two people, so isn't this the definition of CONNECTION? It is not logically consistent in even the tiniest fragment of the definition. As a fetus grows, it develops implicit trust in the voices around him. I mean, my third recognized his SISTER'S voice after birth. Not just mine.

Whatever. If I subscribe to "alt-right" thinking, I am assuming I am not obligated to hold every belief and that it is not defined by a central platform outside of the basic "tribe" and nationalist ideal. I do not need to be a White Supremacist or an abortion advocate to be alt-right.

You're out of your depth here, modern Catalonia is the result of the leftards indoctrinating the local population for 40 years, controlling the education, the local government, the local TV, etc. They have brainwashed the last two generations with some mythical past that never existed.

There never was a war to conquer Catalonia, they voluntarily became part of the Spanish kingdom.

Please read more about the story of Spain previous to the Civil War, after all you know most European countries have existed for longer than the states, just saying.

My conversation with one native there:

- Why are you letting your children be schooled in "Catalonian", don't you realise that they will not be able to work anywhere else in the country and their education will be impaired.

* Yes, but if they choose to work for the government (government work in Spain is for life employment) the requisite is that they speak Catalonian, and Spanish they speak at home.

From a Catholic/Protestant perspective most of America was originally Catholic. Florida, check. Louisiana territory, check, everything west of that was Spanish....check. Always got a kick out of the "America is a Protestant country rubic" no doubt true when it hugged the Atlantic seaboard. Not so much later on.

They have brainwashed the last two generations with some mythical past that never existed. The fuck? Generalissimo Franco actively surpressed Catalonian nationalism

@66There never was a war to conquer Catalonia, they voluntarily became part of the Spanish kingdom

Your conveniently ignoring the Reapers War and the fact that Catalan Republic was declared and ended when the French could no longer prevent the Spanish crown from militarily occupying the region; it was in fact declared no less than 4 times since the union with Aragon.

@ 23 "I agree the South will most likely be strong when TSHTF. The Great Lakes/Rust Belt-Midwest is utterly pozzed and cucked with very large numbers of Dindus, Hajis and Latrinos to make life exciting but short for the Yankee/Germanic white mix." - Takin' a look

The intrusion of reality into fantasy has a way of uncucking people very quickly. I have extended family in small town western Ohio. I am sure they would do just fine at taking care of their own when the time comes. They know the score anyways, and talk about it in a polite, understated German sort of way. 

".. innate human worth, which truly is disgusting and anti-Christian to the extreme."

I real think the alt right wants to portray themselves as this horde of evil beserkers... but at its core theres a belief in Christ. ... 'and he that does the will of our father in heaven is my brother here... ' christians dont scare me... even you protestants :)....

we had a Spaniard here awhile back who was pointing out that Catalonia is actually a leach on the rest of their country

He is either biased or uninformed. Catalonia has about 1/5th of the population in Spain while producing 1/4 of Spain's GDP. The argument is more of them feeling they are getting ripped of by Madrid then the other way around, and it's Catalonia who is tired of supporting poorer ARs.

CheddarmanIve lived my entire life in rural northern New England. Traveling extensively in and throughout this region as a wood buyer in the timber industry. The Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, Coos County of NH and all of Maine 50 miles inland from the coast are entirely different and separate from the rest of their respective states. They are areas where you see limited to no colored people , the men are masculine and the women well..better than the cities but even they've been polluted by feminism. However, when the inevitable collapse happens many of these women will fall right into line a lot easier than any of the entitled cunts living in the cities. Talk about a self sufficient area. You are dealing with a culture where many people make a living either from the woods or in farming and if they don't they know or are related to a number who do. Despite the cultural assaults family is also still pretty strong in these areas.In the Midwest - the only area that rivals it is the UP of Michigan. I read once there was a movement in the 70s for the residents of the UP to secede from Michigan. They, rightfully so, felt they were being taken advantage of by the parasite class down in the lower part of the state. Now might be a good time for them to resurrect their secession movement.It probably would gain traction

Sillon Bono wrote:There never was a war to conquer Catalonia, they voluntarily became part of the Spanish kingdom.

Then why cannot they voluntarily leave?you dislike them, they dislike you. They are a burden on the government, they are a burden on the economy, they're commies and subversives and self-important and arrogant and lazy and stupid. I've heard all these reasons I should dislike Catalonians.

You're out of your depth here, modern Catalonia is the result of the leftards indoctrinating the local population for 40 years, controlling the education, the local government, the local TV, etc. They have brainwashed the last two generations with some mythical past that never existed.

Nonsense. There's never NOT been a strong element of wanting to be on their own and it has nothing to do with brainwashing anybody. They are a distinct culture with a distinct history in a country with huge financial problems and unemployment at 20%. The governing structure gives Madrid unbalanced power over other regions and many of them want to run their own show. Really no surprise-- this was coming with or without a Brexit.

My conversation with one native there:

- Why are you letting your children be schooled in "Catalonian", don't you realise that they will not be able to work anywhere else in the country and their education will be impaired.

* Yes, but if they choose to work for the government (government work in Spain is for life employment) the requisite is that they speak Catalonian, and Spanish they speak at home.

And you had this conversation in English. To a person who speaks Spanish and Catalan and whose children speak all three as well.

"we had a Spaniard here awhile back who was pointing out that Catalonia is actually a leach on the rest of their country"

yes... the same shit the yankees say about the south. And yet... the proof is in the pudding. If that assertion were true... the Spaniards.. and the Yankees.. would both be happy to get rid of the dead weight.

"You're out of your depth here, modern Catalonia is the result of the leftards indoctrinating the local population for 40 years, controlling the education, the local government, the local TV, etc. They have brainwashed the last two generations with some mythical past that never existed."

"Always got a kick out of the "America is a Protestant country rubic" no doubt true when it hugged the Atlantic seaboard. Not so much later on."

This is an artifial difference... protestants and catholics share a large portion of beliefs .. primarily arguing on issues papal autority, sola scripta, mary and sublties regarding communion but to the average member, there is almost no difference at the parish level.

Of the 13 colonies NE was pretty puritain witb exception of RI. Middle states were mixed, southrrn states more moderate protestants. So i think is fair to call the 13 colonies generally protestant but its a wide range of potestants.

yes... the same shit the yankees say about the south. And yet... the proof is in the pudding. If that assertion were true... the Spaniards.. and the Yankees.. would both be happy to get rid of the dead weight.

I don't think you can say this. If the dead-weight reliably votes for those in power I can see them wanting to keep the dead weight.

The Euroquislings and Eurocucks still do not understand what they have done. A Supreme Court decree, that'll show those peasants. I was in Barcelona last year after 10 years. It's gone from a pleasant city to a hellhole of gypsies, Afrothugs, Islamic rage boys and assorted Balkan Eurotrash. By this time this is finished the map of Europe will be pre-Charlemagne. On the bright side, Belgium will cease to exist.

Nate wrote:yes... the same shit the yankees say about the south. And yet... the proof is in the pudding. If that assertion were true... the Spaniards.. and the Yankees.. would both be happy to get rid of the dead weight.

A. Yeah. And it's true of much of the South, but the New Yorkers and Californians don't actually care. It's a purely rhetorical complaint, because...

B. I know that you know that the apparatchiks of the American Empire love power more than anything. If they had balls, they would bargain them to Satan to dictate regulations to five more people per nut. You know who else wants independence?

C. Scotland. Forcing people to take your money (and all the attached strings) does not actually endear them to you, and those strings are how you control the marionette, so no. The high-functioning sociopaths using other people's money as levers and pulleys would rather keep them under their thumbs.

4. Epi July 27, 2016 5:16 PMI love how the patriotic Southrons love America so much that they celebrate the one time they rebelled against it.

no, they did NOT rebel.

they attempted to refuse to allow the North to unilaterally and unlawfully rewrite the Fugitive Slave Clause.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Clause

there is a method for amending the Constitution. the Union States asserted a 'right' to change it without abiding by those amending procedures.

secession is one of the innumerable States Rights nominally 'protected' by the 10th Amendment.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text

Thomas Jefferson himself wrote in favor of the right of States to secede *as he was sitting Vice President*.

when Virginia adopted the Constitution they were one of three States ( NY and RI being the other two, so this wasn't just ignorant Southrons running amuck ) who explicitly reserved to themselves the right to unilaterally secede from the Union at any time their citizens might decide such action was necessary.

there is not today and never has been any Constitutional power or authority for the Federal Government to dismember a constituent State at it's whim, eg - West Virgninia.

every action of the North and Abraham Lincoln was utterly lawless and without principle.

how do we know this?

because we have examples of slavery being abolished in a lawful and peaceful way demonstrating integrity. the Whigs in the United Kingdom did it via Parliament.

here in the US we did it lawlessly, via the under duress adoption by the Southern States of the Reconstruction Amendments. you had best ask WERE the Constitution gives the Federal Government the 'right' to force any state or person to vote in any way regarding any matter.

the answer is:the Constitution does not now and never has done so. any Federal power which claims such 'right' is by definition utterly lawless and has shattered any 'constraint' the Constitution may have impeded it with.

Phillip George wrote:So which "our way of life....shared values....those values.." does Mr Valls share with Basques or Spanish or Cantalonians or Portuguese?

Funnily enough Valls (Manuel Carlos Valls Galfetti) is Catalan - born and lived in Barcelona until coming to France to study. There he showed his willingness to do anything to keep the ruling elites happy and so began his meteoric rise to mediocrity.

More than anything the current French leadership show the deplorable state France is in. They import spineless, despicable toadies like Valls to do the hard work of going around the country pretending they care after each mooslim atrocity. Meanwhile the true French elites (like Strauss-Kahn, LaGarde) have shown that they can't be trusted with anything and are left to run UN institutions instead where all that is needed is a penchant for cocaine and a need for perverted sex.

France's is elite is perverse - they claim to Egalité when they actually have separate taxpayer funded schools (grands ecoles) which they pretend are a meritocracy and former students of a couple of these take turns running the country on behalf of their classmates - I know its more or less the same in UK but they don't take so much time and effort to hide their system.

You will hear people saying things like, "(((Hungarian))) Sarkozy deserved to be prime minister because he went to École Polytechnique ..." as if he was some academic genius who got there on merit and not a member of a cosmopolitan elite with a reserved place from birth.

The average Frenchman needs such a high level of cognitive dissonance to reconcile what they tell them their country is and what they see with their own eyes - it could partly explain why they are letting their country be overrun by the current wave of barbarians.

I believe Hollande, Sarkozy and Hollande's former wife were all in the same class at Polytechnique, quelle coincidence...

Fnord Prefect wrote:The average Frenchman needs such a high level of cognitive dissonance to reconcile what they tell them their country is and what they see with their own eyes - it could partly explain why they are letting their country be overrun by the current wave of barbarians.

This is what the trend-eternals don't get: the native Europeans are suffering from a self-induced mass delusion that takes energy to maintain. So what happens when it falters, and in the opposite of a psychotic break, they have a collective recovery?

EscapeVelocity wrote:Interestingly enough, nationalist separatism was viewed more positively by the Elites when Serbia was being carved up to make Muslim nation states of Bosnia and Kosovo.

Yeah. Our international "elites" have quite a history of rewarding Muslims with land, recognition, and even nukes (Pakistan) for their mass orgies of depraved violence. No civilized country with any sense would let crazy rapey killy Pakis in, which just goes to show how sick our so-called leaders are.

Catalonia has not been occupied by Spain. Catalonia is part of Spain since the birth of Spain, as part of Corona de Aragón.

The secesion parties do not hold the majority of Catalonian votes. Due to Spanish electoral law, a vote in the inner towns of Catalonia has more power than one in the coast cities. Guess who's the majority in the inner towns and guess who's majority in the coas cities.

PS: it should be Visça Catalunya. Viva is Spanish and most probably would cause an apoplexy if there is any secesionist here.

I think we are done for. Mariano Rajoy will not do anything against the Catalonian secessionist (he was giving them some benefits in Spanish Parlamento which, according to rules, they could not get), as he has done nothing in the past years.

You're out of your depth here, modern Catalonia is the result of the leftards indoctrinating the local population for 40 years, controlling the education, the local government, the local TV, etc. They have brainwashed the last two generations with some mythical past that never existed.

No, you're out of your depth. The leftards have promoted Spanish unity for decades and then promoted European unity after that. Nationalism comes naturally to disparate populations, and the Catalonians have seen themselves as separate from the Castilians since time immemorial. And they hardly needed Marxist indoctrination to feel resentment at all of the heavy-handed... Marxist indoctrination that came out of Madrid.

There never was a war to conquer Catalonia, they voluntarily became part of the Spanish kingdom.

Dynastic union is not the same as a popular movement.

Please read more about the story of Spain previous to the Civil War, after all you know most European countries have existed for longer than the states, just saying.

This is one of the most breathlessly and ignorant ironies I've seen since... well, actually I've seen a lot of it while watching the DNC the last few days, but if not for that, this would really be remarkable.

I'm Spanish. The Catalonian issue isn't about democracy as secessionists themselves opposes to seccession of smaller regions, towns and obviously landowner individuals. The best way to define the Spanish left including the ruling one in Catalonia is "antifa". If you want to know what have antifas in mind you have to read the next article. Coincides with my observations http://www.dailystormer.com/what-is-an-anti-fascist/Podemos and Catalonian leftoids think that EU, and Spanish gov aren't pushing multicultural and redistribution policies fast enough and that they should be the "beneficiaries" of both policies.In Spain an average worker is working 50% year in taxes, only after day 183 he owns his work and body. Not enough for Catalonian left. They are anti white globalist

It doesn't matter what the Catalonians (or any other secessionist movement) wants in terms of specific policies. What matters is that they resent control by some other group. It's the same with the Scottish. It's the same with the Irish. It's the same with the South in America (and more and more that's becoming true of the West.)

They may well agree on how things need to be run, on average. But they don't want someone else running things, they want to do it themselves.

Indeed. One wonders who's gonna pay their welfare subsidies now seeing as most of it seems to come from Madrid. That said I'm all for self determination. I would have kicked the leeches to the curb long ago.

Being Catalonia one of the most (if not the most) self-ruled region in Europe, with more attributions than Scotland or any German lander, having plenty of Catalonians as Ministers in central Government throughout history, it is hard to understand this "someone else running things" thing you say.

@108 Equating the Catalonia movement with ignorant half-assed thugs like antifa is just plain dishonest. Many times when the movement heats up due to elections or referendums it's hard to find a window in any neighborhood without the red and yellow striped flag. There can be hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters-- a good example is my friend who is big into the movement. He holds his culture and homeland dear to his heart. He is a doctor and a professional and a good family man. He is not unusual there whatsoever.

they attempted to refuse to allow the North to unilaterally and unlawfully rewrite the Fugitive Slave Clause.@98The Fugitive Slave Acts were federal writs, and New York and other abolitionist states had the States' Right to abrogate federal laws that they don't agree with or cannot enforce. The Southern Baptist slave lords would need to increase power to the federal government to "make states enforce federal laws".

Totally opposite to the historical propaganda people have been fed.

By making US territories into slave states, by spreading slavery towards Mexico, the slave lords would have gotten enough federal power blocs to force their way through. They merely didn't count on Lincoln actually fighting and winning a war. The secession was merely a way to give Northern Democrats a way to get the nation ready for their return.

The South's problem was that the abolitionist states refused to enforce the slave fugitive acts, to return their "property". Funny how their property needs to be returned, but dogs and cats aren't. Funny also how their property gives them more votes, and their dogs and cats and other property doesn't give them more votes.

Most of this can be checked via references in the documents of Secession, written by Southern plantation lords and politicians, not by Lincoln or Republicans.

As for VoxDay's comment in the OP, I'm not sure if he just wants America to burn because he has already left, or if he really does have sympathies to the Southern Baptist slave lords who lost a war after expending train loads of poor white fodder who didn't even own slaves. (And some of their military leaders, like Lee, didn't even like slavery)

It may remind a red Indian of what happened to the Indian tribes in the USA, perhaps.

because we have examples of slavery being abolished in a lawful and peaceful way demonstrating integrity. the Whigs in the United Kingdom did it via Parliament.

That lacks the context of the situation. As early as 1830s, abolitionists in the North were hunted down and lynched, paid for by wealthy slave owners and their allies, by mobs for speaking out against slavery. Can you end slavery lawfully when pre KKK death squads are hunting your speakers down?

GreyS wrote:Equating the Catalonia movement with ignorant half-assed thugs like antifa is just plain dishonest. Many times when the movement heats up due to elections or referendums it's hard to find a window in any neighborhood without the red and yellow striped flag.

Popular support doesn't equal legitimacy, neither morals or what's best. Otherwise communist governments and their idiotic policies should be right, after all the dumbed down brainless populace supports them. Moreover the Catalonian government after all the years of brainwashing and hasn't achieved an everlasting victory? They should take classes with their colleagues in America.

It is not dishonest. They're anti white antifa. Basically all the Spanish left is. They hate Spain because they think Spain is too fascist, traditional and white. Exist also a part of the movement that is better defined as burgeois, industrious and capitalist, still globalist. Podemos the radical anti white party has only won in two places one of them is Catalonia. Maybe your friend believe he is closer to a black Catalonian than a White aragonese. Quite inconsistent with rational thought. You have to look deeper into your friend to know what he really thinks. Democracy and freedom is the last of their points. If that were I would have moved there now.

You simply cannot equate the Catalonian independence movement with antifa. The fact that they can have 2 million people at a protest with zero violence proves you wrong. You cannot even equate them with Podemos. Acting like it is a black racial movement is utter bullshit, as most of the supporters, including my friends, have relatively pale skin. Why you are play-acting on this stuff I have no idea.

"Many times when the movement heats up due to elections or referendums it's hard to find a window in any neighborhood without the red and yellow striped flag."

This is simply not true. It wasn't true in the 2012, 2013 & 2014 (in the peak of the secesionist movement), it is less true now, despite all the propaganda to the contrary.

"There can be hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters-- a good example is my friend who is big into the movement. He holds his culture and homeland dear to his heart. He is a doctor and a professional and a good family man. He is not unusual there whatsoever."

Well, if you count the children too, then you can inflate the numbers to the millions, as the secesionist propaganda has done during all these years.

The truth is that, on 9 November 2014, they carried out an ilegal referendum. The people who voted (including youngsters from 16 year old onwards, immigrants who cannot vote on regional elections, etc.) for the secesion were something less than 2 millions. After years of propaganda, after millions of public money spent on the secesionist movement, the people who voted for the secesion were less than a 30% of the population of Catalonia. Speak about "people's mandate".

If we count the votes (not the representatives - more on that later) of the latest regional elections, we have that the secesionist parties got less than a half of the total votes, and roughly the same quantity that on the illegal referendum. Why the majority on representatives? Because of the electoral law, electoral law that the secesionist parties haven't changed when they had the opportuniy, because it benefits them: a vote in inner Catalonia (always more inclined to local nationalism and secesionist parties) has more weigh than a vote in Barcelona metropolitan area (usually much more inclined to constitutionalist parties).

Re. your friends, of course this is not a movement of brainwashed ignorant thugs. But they've been led to believe, since centuries, that Catalonian are special snowflakes, not like the brutish and barbarian Castillians. Brainwashing exists in the school (where Spanish is taught at the level of a foreign language - two hours a week, just like English - because, they say, the kids will pick Spanish up in the street); in the media (no public media - TV, radio - in Spanish), with special mention to TV3, the local propaganda TV station; in the local Administration, where you cannot find an official form in Spanish, and public workers (including doctors) are enforced by the Govern to speak to the citizens only in Catalonian, and to try even mimic before speaking in Spanish. All of this in a region were more than a half of the population's mother tongue and prefered language for everyday use is Spanish, and against all of Spanish laws.

So, yeah, Catalonian secesionism is a mandate of the people, but less than a half of them, and specially against the other half.

This is simply not true. It wasn't true in the 2012, 2013 & 2014 (in the peak of the secesionist movement), it is less true now, despite all the propaganda to the contrary.

It most certainly IS true. I'm an eyewitness. I've been to the region four times in the last several years. I've been in all sorts of neighborhoods in Barcelona and there are times when virtually all of the balconies have those flags. I'm no expert on Spain but it is impossible to miss those flags.

Well, if you count the children too, then you can inflate the numbers to the millions, as the secesionist propaganda has done during all these years.

Simply google and see the pictures which prove you exactly wrong. Hundreds of thousands at minimum and estimates of 1.5 to 2 million are easy to agree with when you see the pictures.

The truth is that, on 9 November 2014, they carried out an ilegal referendum.

Illegal according to whom? And why should that matter?

Catalonian secesionism is a mandate of the people, but less than a half of them, and specially against the other half.

There is probably some of that sure, but when you have a demonstration of 2 million people without violence then it is most certainly FALSE that it is one half of the country against the other half. Just because some Catalans want to stay with Spain doesn't mean they are anti-Catalonia.

(chuckle) Saying "They only have 2 million voters out of 4 million and have control of the schools, the radio, the public broadcasting, the unions, the doctors, and they think of themselves as special snowflakes" is not exactly the best argument against giving them credit for self-determination. In the end it doesn't matter if they believe they are Moon People-- they have the numbers, they have the desire and they have control.