Oh but by now I think we do. You are right that Chechens per se aren't attacking America. I never thought that. But radical Islam *is* by proxy attacking us.

Except Islamn, and even radical islam is not a monolithic entity. More on that in a moment.

Quote:

This older brother was heavily influenced by the preachings of two dead radical Islam leaders.

Yup, but so far I haven't heard about anything specific to a Chechnya-US tension. It's globalized anti-US sentiment, of which a minority of Muslims turn into terrorism.

Quote:

If Islam proper can't publicly and repeatedly reject these extremists, then they deserve to be caught up in the broad brush characterization. I have no sympathy. When and if they actively participate in the rejection, then they can join the civilized world.

But there is no Islam proper in the way there's a Catholicism proper. It's more like "Christianity proper". And there are many muslim clerics and individual worshipers who have openly and repeatedly rejected the extremists, but that's not sexy and doesn't get news coverage. There's no monolithic structure to Islam whereby it can reject terrorism as an entity. It's up to regional groups, just like Protestant religions. Just by way of comparison, how much has Christianity Proper (whatever that is) openly rejected the widespread murder and attacks on homosexuals in Africa (supposedly motivated by Christian belief)?

I thought all the simplistic childish nonsense had ended with the war in Iraq you know" They hate our freedoms, they have weapons of mass destruction and ties to al qaeda".......................but look at the things the US government does like with Osama..murder him and then dump him in an ocean This to me smacks of more of the same....that poor bugger in the boat was shot at when he was unarmed and one bullet landed in his throat so he can't talk........how convenient.Where is Abdul Rahman Ali Al-Harbi ?? was he there, I should have thought a known terrorist should take priority over a suspected one and why was he deported....is this all about the petro dollar? we wouldn't want to offend the Saudis would we

I suggest the simple ABC’s test to resolve the debate. The question is simple: Should we consider those who promote and accept the following teaching as radicals or moderates?

Apostate killing.....

Barbaric treatment of women: Beating women, the practice of polygamy, and the stoning of women until death for adultery.....

Calling Jews pigs and monkeys.....

Declaring wars on non-Muslims to spread Islam after offering non-Muslims three options: subjugate to Islam, pay jizia (a humiliating tax), or be killed.....

Enslavement of other human beings (modern day slavery).....

Fighting and killing Jews before “end days.”....

Gay discrimination and hostility.

Valkenar wrote:

so far I haven't heard about anything specific to a Chechnya-US tension. It's globalized anti-US sentiment, of which a minority of Muslims turn into terrorism.

We agree.

Valkenar wrote:

There's no monolithic structure to Islam whereby it can reject terrorism as an entity.

Like Christianity, Muslims have their own leaders within the subgroups of Islam. Yes, we hear individual Muslims rejecting terrorism. No, we do not hear the head Imams speaking out. And if they did, I'm sure they would have no problem finding a microphone.

The following ramblings were so over-the-top that I considered not responding at all.

jorvik wrote:

I thought all the simplistic childish nonsense had ended with the war in Iraq you know" They hate our freedoms, they have weapons of mass destruction and ties to al qaeda".......................but look at the things the US government does like with Osama..murder him and then dump him in an ocean This to me smacks of more of the same....that poor bugger in the boat was shot at when he was unarmed and one bullet landed in his throat so he can't talk........how convenient.Where is Abdul Rahman Ali Al-Harbi ?? was he there, I should have thought a known terrorist should take priority over a suspected one and why was he deported....is this all about the petro dollar? we wouldn't want to offend the Saudis would we

Here's some Muslim on Muslim violence. This is a love letter from Saddam to the Kurds.

Here's a picture of all the children born to fathers - innocent civilians - who died in the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center. You know... the attack that Osama Bin Ladin masterminded. Their wives were pregnant on September 11, 2001. Count the babies, consider the probabilities, and do the math.

Here's a nifty phrase for you to know and learn about.

Quote:

The fog of war is the uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations.[1] The term seeks to capture the uncertainty regarding one's own capability, adversary capability, and adversary intent during an engagement, operation, or campaign.

Study: Majority Of Americans Not Informed Enough To Stereotype Chechens

WASHINGTON—Following FBI reports this morning that the suspects implicated in Monday’s Boston Marathon bombing are of Chechen descent, efforts to thoughtlessly stereotype the alleged terrorists were impeded by the majority of Americans’ lack of basic knowledge about Chechnya or the Chechen people, a new study has confirmed. “Our research shows that, while many Americans would like nothing more than to make sweeping, insensitive generalizations about these two individuals based purely on their ethnic identity, this process is largely impeded by the fact that 9 out of 10 Americans truly know next to nothing about Chechnya, including even the very barest details of what or where Chechnya is,” said lead researcher Dr. Tim Kinane, adding that a majority of American citizens are almost totally unaware of Chechen history and culture, how to locate Chechnya on a map, whether Chechnya is a country or a city or a region, or that a person from Chechnya is called a Chechen. “Clinical trials show that most individuals will make brief, fumbling attempts to stereotype Chechens based on what little they know about Russians, but eventually drop the subject entirely after running out of anything to say within seconds.” Kinane’s team was able to confirm, however, that once research subjects were told Chechnya is a predominantly Muslim region, they were “usually pretty good to go from there.”

Quote"Against the West: Islamic Radicals Hate Us for Who We Are, Not What We Do"

No , I think that you will find that they hate you for what you do !! all those Pakistani wedding parties killed by drone attacks, heck you've even had American citizens killed without due process ( sorry I should have said murdered)............and I bet Reuters are pretty pissed.

Here are some cowards shooting at innocent civillians, these SCUM even shoot at them when they crawl away to die

You wouldn't even know about this except for one very brave, patriotic American Bradley Manning. God bless him

Wow... This from a resident of the UK. Nice that you should preach to us, Ray, how to be patriotic.

For the record, I'm a graduate of Mr. Jefferson's University. He was the author of a document which told King George where to stick it. So... God bless the Queen. I'm glad you love your country.

Wikipedia wrote:

Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who was arrested in May 2010 in Iraq on suspicion of having passed classified material to the website WikiLeaks. He was charged with a number of offenses, including communicating national defense information to an unauthorized source and aiding the enemy, a capital offense, though prosecutors said they would not seek the death penalty.[1]

Here is the person who operates WikiLeaks.

Wikileaks wrote:

Julian Paul Assange ([pron.: /əˈsɑːndʒ/] ə-SAHNJ;[2][3] born 3 July 1971) is an Australian editor, activist, publisher and journalist.[4][5] He is best known as the editor-in-chief and founder of WikiLeaks, which publishes submissions of secret information,[6] news leaks[7] and classified media from anonymous news sources[8] and whistleblowers.[9]

Good luck to Julian and his freedom. The Sweedish government wants him for two counts of sexual assault. Apparently he's all about truth and justice, except when it comes to servicing his own needs.

Wikipedia wrote:

Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have.[1]

Yes, I have practiced argumentum ad hominem. But in this case, it is warranted; you're engaging in it.

Stick to the topic, Ray. It's not about you; it's about a terrorist event in Boston. We're not talking about collateral damage in a complex war. This is about the intentional murder of innocent civilians and the point-blank execution of a law enforcement officer on *my* home turf. On that note, I'm not in the mood for anti-American bullsheet. (Note the title of this thread.) This is about understanding and dealing with a terrorist threat in the fog of war. If you can't stay on topic, I'm sure I have a cylindrical file where I can channel your posts.

Chechnya is buried in generations of men fighting and dying against a behemoth they have/had no hope of defeating. Islam fills that fatalistic void like a tub of glue. It was a match made in Hell. Chechens gave our boys Hell in the mountains of Afghanistan. If you want a quick update on how they got there and an idea of where things may go from here, check this link:

I can't believe people are still peddling that video. I can tell you that if I were a reporter embedded with terrorists I sure as hell wouldn't tell my cameraman to point his large television camera at a helicopter or C-130 gunship when I'm surrounded by RPG-wielding thugs.

Quote"Stick to the topic, Ray. It's not about you; it's about a terrorist event in Boston. We're not talking about collateral damage in a complex war. This is about the intentional murder of innocent civilians and the point-blank execution of a law enforcement officer on *my* home turf. On that note, I'm not in the mood for anti-American bullsheet. (Note the title of this thread.) This is about understanding and dealing with a terrorist threat in the fog of war. If you can't stay on topic, I'm sure I have a cylindrical file where I can channel your posts."I am sticking to the topic Bill .it's you who keeps derailing it ..as I said originally what happened to Abdul Rahman Ali Al-Harbi

posting picture of dead folks has nothing to do with that.should I post pictures of the 1.5 million civillians killed by the US in Iraq??..what would that be called " Radical Proxy capitalism"

Quote"Bradley Manning is no patriot. He's a punk who decided to get back at his unit and the military in general after he felt was being mistreated. I hope he gets more than this dumb bastard: "

what about those jerks in the gunship, are they brave patriots for killing unarmed innocent civilians??

I'll tell you now there is soooooo much hypocracy when americans talk about themselves and what they have done.....kill a few dozen at a innocents at a wedding party and it's " Collateral damage".....and then three die in Boston and it's an atrocity.

and Bill the IRA did a lot worse in my country. I think what you are really doing is waiting for pay back time, and your just hoping that this is as bad as it gets

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

No it's not. I want to know the motivation for this attack, and if and why a Saudi National with known links to terrorists was allowed to leave .Justin made a very valid point that a lot of what is said by the media encourages us to think of conspiracy theories. What I have seen on the news certainly supports that viewpoint IMHOIf it is just a couple of nuts, then why bring up all this business of Chechnia? it is irrelevant.and there are serious questions about how they were arrested and their rights, as far as I know the guy arrested is still only a suspect. As far as I am aware all the 9/11 attackers bare one were Saudis, so it seems a little strange that a Saudi ( alledgedly) is allowed to leave.........and we have evidence of this occuring in the past , after 9/11 the Osama family were allowed to fly home , while all other Us fights for Americans were grounded. I shouldn't have though that it would take a lot of police work to dispell this rumour

No it's not. I want to know the motivation for this attack, and if and why a Saudi National with known links to terrorists was allowed to leave .

Stop right there. You're dragging a very different subject into the topic of this thread. Every time you do that, you are off topic and you are muddying the picture. It appears to me you're doing it intentionally. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know the motivation of the attack, then you need to do your homework. It's all here in the thread, Ray, and it isn't rocket science.

Read Jason's reference above about the Russian/Chechan conflict. It's been going on for centuries. Recent developments have brought what we know of as Chechnya to a very ugly head. I have close to first-hand knowledge of this, as I work with a number of Russians. Anyhow, here is the link..........Chechnya - New Dimensions of the Old Crisis....Please do not continue the discussion until you've read that whole article.....

Read my definition above for radical Islam. After reading the definition, then go back to the article above that I just asked you to read. Look for the radical Islam within Islam in Chechnya.....

Consider that these two individuals were losers. They suffered from a broken family. The oldest son was doing well under the direction of his father, but then fell to partying and self-medication with his loser friends. He started a family, but then had no job. He applied for welfare. He became angry at the world. His mother convinced him to turn to Islam. In doing so, he self-radicalized by absorbing the teachings of former radical Islamists who - surprise surprise - were killed in the global war on terror.....Before this was all over, the Russians were alerting our own FBI that this fellow was trouble. He was spending time with known radicals in Russia. Somehow the message was never quite received, partly because the Russians didn't want to reveal how they got all their information. In any case, trouble was brewing.....

Younger brother looks up to and is influenced by loser older brother.

jorvik wrote:

as far as I know the guy arrested is still only a suspect.

He is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Meanwhile... do a little more reading. At the very least... these two hijacked a Mercedes, and told the guy whom they hijacked that they were the bombers. We have films of them carrying the backpacks which contained the bombs. The police discovered more bombs - to be used in future bombings. They had a gun battle with chasing police where they were hurling grenades and homemade bombs at them.

Where there is smoke...

Yes, there was some confusion at the end. They thought the younger brother was armed. He wasn't. They thought he might have a suicide vest on, as did older brother. He didn't. Oh well... Read above the definition of the fog of war.

As far as all the Saudi stuff, that is another issue. The only connection is the influence of Wahabbism on the conversion of many Chechens to radical Islam.

And most Saudis (and Chechens) are *not* terrorists. Most bin Ladens are *not* bad guys. Remember... the bin Laden family disowned Osama well before 9-11. Hmmm... And not all neer-do-wells need to be handled by the U.S. If the House of Saud wants to get their hands on another Wahabbi radical (most Saudis are Sunnis), well go for it. Problem solved. We're far too kind with miscreants in this country. The Saudis aren't.

It seems nobody wants to acknowledge that the reasons complicated. Terrorists target the US for multiple reasons. Their poverty and hopelessness is one reason. Our mid-east policy (drone strikes, e.g.) is another. There are more, but that's the dichotomy people seem to argue about. Bill's side seems to suggest that the former is the only reason. And then there's Jorvik's side that doesn't seem to acknowledge the latter reason.

I think you meant that Ray is suggesting the latter reason. But it's your post, so I'll let you clarify.

Valkenar wrote:

It seems nobody wants to acknowledge that the reasons complicated. [sic]

This is one (1) terrorist event. I've spent the last half dozen or so posts trying to keep Ray on topic. You too are trying to generalize. You can't. Not all terrorist events are created equal. Yes, patterns are there from one to the next. But the specific grievances vary.

So sorry... I'm on record saying that terrorism in general can be complicated, which is why I'm trying to get everyone to stay on this subject. That said, I *am* suggesting that this particular event is not that complicated. Explaining it is not rocket science. However... do not post more unless you've read Jason's article in full. The Russian/Chechen conflict is both centuries old and multifaceted.

Valkenar wrote:

Their poverty and hopelessness is one reason. Our mid-east policy (drone strikes, e.g.) is another. There are more, but that's the dichotomy people seem to argue about. Bill's side seems to suggest that the former is the only reason...

I *have* stated above (please read) that these two losers were against our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those points of view happened in the self-radicalization process, and that happened only after their loser status and mom's insistence on throwing them into Islam. Check out the two individuals who I said above (please read) posthumously helped radicalize the older one via their video preaching. So that kind of shoots holes in your simplistic characterization of my point of view.

But at the end of the day, Justin, remember that our presence in those two countries didn't happen in a vacuum. You don't go to war unless you have an enemy. That's the case in both Afghanistan and Iraq, but for very different reasons. Once you engage in war, your enemies will be very upset, and will throw lethal temper tantrums. People not engaged may choose sides.

And Ray's going to fuss at me - no matter what - for being Irish and a fan of TJ. It keeps him off the streets.

The difference between us and some of them is we don't *intentionally* slaughter innocent civilians. That practice wins these savages the label of terrorist.

So at the end of the day... it really doesn't matter what we do. They (these two boys and their radical Islam brainwashers) hate us for what we represent. They attack us repeatedly around the world, and we whack them. The finger wagging is a monkey dance (read Rory Miller). Parsing events to make a point is missing the forest for the trees. Nobody would have ruined OBL's harem if he wasn't a bad boy and planned the slaughter of over 3000 innocent civilians from around the world. Obama wouldn't be sending drones into Pakistan if the ISI wasn't harboring Taliban allies who wander across the border to fight NATO troops in Afghanistan. We wouldn't have whacked Saddam if he wasn't shooting at our planes in the no-fly zones. And those no-fly zones wouldn't have existed if Saddam wasn't exterminating Kurdish and Shia muslims after his invasion of Kuwait. Etc, etc, etc.

But I wander off topic.

O-bla-di, o-bla-da, life goes on, brah!...Lala how the life goes on...

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