Suppose you are a police officer on patrol with your partner in downtown Smileyville America :) it's a cold winter day about 12:05 pm and the lunch hour has started when suddenly you get a call from the dispatcher saying: (to copy from Adam 12) "One Adam-12, One Adam-12 shots fired at Family Law Center at San Francisco and Washington avenue. sniper fire reported from all four sides of the building on lower floors. 2 men with guns returning their fire. Officer down. several civilians down. Shots fired inside Family Law Center, men with guns storming through building.

You arrive a block from the Family Law Center right across the street from the county courthouse and your car comes to a screetching halt as a bullet or two strikes the windshield. Your partner grabs the shotgun and you whirle the car up on the sidewalk to give it some concealment. Both of you exit the vehicle and make your way to the corner to see that 3 other units with about 4 or 5 other officers are already on the scene. Several sheriff deputies who were at the courthouse have also responded.
You are the senior ranking police officer on the scene (since FLC is a county building it might be that it is county jurisdiction, but for the for now lets assume you are in charge).
The officers are largely keeping out of range of the gunfire but are for the most part concentrated on the same corner. The officers already on the scene have given you bits and pieces of what you are about to see. You peer around the corner to view the front walk area of the FLC (about 100 yards from your side of the street to park the front of the FLC building to the front of the building itself). You see the following:

1) gunfire from the the third floor building on the front side facing you.
2) gunfire from the same floor on the side of the building on the street you are on just up the block on your right.
3) people still trying to flee the building getting shot at.
4) You see about 25 yards away just around the corner on your block just across from the FLC building a sheriff deputy down with a woman with some apparent medical experience tending a wound.
5) A man with the deputies 1911 .45 standing behind a tree a few yards away returing the sniper's fire to provide cover for people fleeting.
6) A deputy across the street on the FLC block pinned down behind a concrete wall occasionally putting down some fire from his .38 Special revolver to provide additional cover.
7) On the far block on the far side of the front of the FLC in a parking lot full of cars you see a man pinned down with an AR-15 returning sniper fire from the third story window on the front, and appears to be shifting his fire from there to the side left of the building closest to him as well as the front.
8) You see another man with a deer rifle with a scope trying to pick off one of the snipers on the front a few cars away from the man with the AR-15.
9) You can still hear shots fired from inside the building.

You get radio reports from another unit on the far block of the FLC opposite you saying that there is sniper fire from that side too. It has been confirmed that their is sniper fire from the central third floor window on all four sides of the building. (the building is about 20 stories high)

The SWAT team is supposed to be on the way. Normally they would arrive within 10 minutes but traffic is bad and street construction downtown is, as always, a nightmare so it maybe longer. People are fighting and dying now. What do you do? What instructions do you give? Do you deploy the other officers? What do you do? What about those "dangerous" (so say some in this forum) civilians using guns publicly? What about the people still trying to flee the building? IF the SWAT team does arrive fairly soon, what do you do then, what are they going to do?

Go down further to see what all is happening and who the other players are apart from you and your officers with you and the next question of this thread:
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>Islamic terrorists have decided to launch a Jihad on the courthouse building. About noon, fifteen men entered the Family Law Center wearing jackets and trench coats. The first thing they did was produce uzzies, carbine AR-15s and shotguns and mow down the worthless unarmed metal detector people with their wands, pocket stuff bowls and gates and the guard that was standing there fussing at somebody for having a pocketknife and pencil on their person. :rolleyes: (lot of good they were.) Some bozo judge's false sense of security bites the dust at the expense of four human lives the first of sadly many.

The gunmen then hurry upstairs via elevator and stairs and storm the third floor killing anyone they see with the men with carbines breaking out a window on each side (about two men on each side). Their purpose is to hold off police help from reaching the building in time to achieve their objective of killing as many people as possible and to keep their victims from leaving the building.

The other gunmen are working their way through every floor shooting whoever they see. A handful of deputies armed with revolvers and semi automatic handguns are still inside the building doing what they can but many have already been shot responding to gunfire on the lower floors.

Outside,
Deputy Dave Thomas was walking back from an early dinner when a .223 bullet struck him in the chest and he collapsed to the sidewalk across the street.
Wendy King, a nurse at the city hospital was enjoying her day off walking from her apartment to meet her husband John Burger King at TGI Fridays a few blocks away when she saw Deputy Thomas hit. She with the help of attorney Perry Mason who was leaving the courthouse walking back to his car pulled Thomas behind a bus stop hut out of view from the snipers.
She began tending his wounds as best she could.
Perry Mason upon seeing people across the street being dropped one by one fleeing the building then unholsters Thomas' 1911 A-1 and takes his two magazines and dashes behind a tree a tree some yards away to provide cover fire.
Wendy King pulls her cell phone from her purse and calls 911 and tells the police dispatcher what his going on, an officer is shot, sniper fire, Mr. Mason returning fire with the deputy's gun and the need for medial assistance.

On the other side of the street, Deputy Ronald McDonald was walking across the street from the courthouse to the Family Law Center on business when the shooting broke out. Two bullets struck the sidewalk next to him and he ducked behind a concrete wall in front of the FLC. He pulls his S&W M-15 and returns fire as best he can to also aid the people fleeing the building.

Mr. Tom J. Jackson was an average guy who parked in front of the FLC to go check some probate info on his grandmother who died a few months ago when sniperfire erupted. He couldn't escape. If his car even started moving, it would be one of the first things drilled by the snipers. Traffic around the block was already starting to halt as drivers paniced and swerved or stopped and people exited to get to cover behidn other cars in the lot or behind the short concrete wall aligning the park in front of the building. Nowhere for Mr. Jackson to go. He could see that men were shooting from each side of the building that were visable to him. Bullets were showering down trying to hit him, people under cover around the lot and people fleeing the building. He pulled his AR-15 out from under the back seat, pulled the 30 round magazine from the glove compartment and tried pick of or at least suppress the sniper fire. In between this all, he pulls out his cell phone reports what is going on to the dispatcher, where he is and what he and what the stranger with the deer rifle a few cars down the lot is doing.

Mr. Bobby L. Dabney, a good man who liked to hunt was exiting his car about to go into the courthouse when gunfire erupted on the outside of the FLC. He was in the same situation as Jackson. He pulled his scope mounted 30-06 bolt action from the back of his pickup and tried to pickoff the snipers.

People fleeing the building are those who were able to hide and slip down stairways and make their way outside the building. Some of them got on the phone as they heard the shots or were in hiding and called the police to tell the dispatcher what was going on inside the building.

So there is the story. There are the players. The next question is this. What can be done to prevent this from happening again? More security? Disarming the public? Strip searching everyone who enters the building? OR allowing free carry for everyone who desires to own a gun whereever they choose to carry?

Far fetched you say? Maybe so, but then 10 years ago if this had been a thread about 4 commercial airplanes crashing into important buildings in 2 major cities...this would have also been seen as one of "Doug's wild senarios."

Nevertheless, this is doubtless going to get nitpicked and critizised by the same people, but for the rest of you who are interested in honest thought and discourse, post away!:)

I think this thread is important with all the discourse and argument around TFL about what police are and what they aren't, what they should and shouldn't be AND what civilians are and what they aren't and what they should and shouldn't be doing.

BonnieBlue

March 23, 2006, 09:03 PM

Doug,
Kind of lengthy, but personally I have no problem with anyone carrying anytime, most anywhere, openly. The myth had become that this caused problems in the "old" days. But, in fact, it prevented them. The gunfight at the O.K. corral was one of the few gunfights that happened in Tombstone. Same for other towns, east or west. The government line has said, over about 100 years that guns need to be taken off the street and away from people to prevent shootings and crime. I say BS!

atlctyslkr

March 23, 2006, 09:17 PM

Well, I've already lived through a similar situation. While I wasn't in the courthouse at the time I was near by
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/noadsindex/courthouseshooting.html

I got the hell out of there and got back to my place uptown.

If a senario as Doug is suggesting played out and I was around I would do what I did last time, get the hell out of there. I would only fire if directly fired upon (that is someone was preventing me from fleeing). As I did then I left it to the professionals. I would only use my gun to aid in my escape to safer territory. There's no way I can help the police armed with just a snubbie.

OuTcAsT

March 23, 2006, 09:21 PM

Wish I could reply with the opinion of a LEO, I however do not have the experience of being a LEO to make this kind of call, and my Military background only clouds the issue further, I am,however, interested to see what some real LEOs can contribute.

Just curious, but what is your exact impression of a SWAT team Doug, do you have the "hollywood" notion that they all jump into ONE vehicle and dash to the scene? is it possible that many officers that are on routine patrol in the area have SWAT training,and their gear in their respective patrol vehicles?

after all...it is your world.

OuTcAsT

March 23, 2006, 09:27 PM

I got the hell out of there and got back to my place uptown.

as a citizen CCW that is EXACTLY what I would do as well.

If a senario as Doug is suggesting played out and I was around I would do what I did last time, get the hell out of there. I would only fire if directly fired upon (that is someone was preventing me from fleeing). As I did then I left it to the professionals. I would only use my gun to aid in my escape to safer territory. There's no way I can help the police armed with just a snubbie.
Today 08:03 PM

Or a 1911, or AR, etc. Ditto.

My responsibility is to get ME (or any other family member) the hell out of dodge safely. (period)

Doug.38PR

March 23, 2006, 09:49 PM

atlctyslkr and Outcast,

The whole situation is set up where pretty much everyone aside from the police officers who have just arrived on the scene, CAN'T just run away back to their apt. They are pretty much all pinned down. Their car can't go anywhere and there is really nowhere for them to run except for the people fleeing the building who are just trying to get clear and to cover.
If you will notice, this is not about "helping the police" but about saving yourself and other people who are being shot down.
That is from the point of view of the armed nonLEOS on the scene.
I would say a snubbie in your hand is better than a cell phone in your hand. It's something that can send a projectile at a bad guy.

It's not supposed to be just about nonLEOS but about LEOs and what should and shouldn't happen. What could be done by police already on the scene. If some have swat material in their vehicle, do they don the vest, helmet, submachine gun and ninja mask and go in hosing every nonLEO down because they might be a threat? Do they jump into one vehicle and take off to the scene? Obviously not every patrolman out there is SWAT and their has to be some kind of organized team. It's not just one or two guys in army gear jumping around. What is to be expected from the police in the overall situation?

OuTcAsT

March 23, 2006, 11:13 PM

Suppose you are a police officer on patrol with your partner in downtown Smileyville America

The first premise was what?

Wendy King, a nurse at the city hospital was enjoying her day off walking from her apartment to meet her husband John Burger King at TGI Fridays a few blocks away when she saw Deputy Thomas hit. She with the help of attorney Perry Mason who was leaving the courthouse walking back to his car pulled Thomas behind a bus stop hut out of view from the snipers.
She began tending his wounds as best she could

They were, by description, clearly "out of view", why should there be a need for perry to "return fire". if you are out of the view of the snipers then you are no longer a target correct?

Perry Mason upon seeing people across the street being dropped one by one fleeing the building then unholsters Thomas' 1911 A-1 and takes his two magazines and dashes behind a tree a tree some yards away to provide cover fire.

Why? he was out of the line of fire, his first responsibility is to protect HIMSELF. he has no obligation to cover anyone's butt but his own.

On the other side of the street, Deputy Ronald McDonald was walking across the street from the courthouse to the Family Law Center on business when the shooting broke out. Two bullets struck the sidewalk next to him and he ducked behind a concrete wall in front of the FLC. He pulls his S&W M-15 and returns fire as best he can to also aid the people fleeing the building.

a commendable act, performed by a sworn officer.

Mr. Tom J. Jackson was an average guy who parked in front of the FLC to go check some probate info on his grandmother who died a few months ago when sniperfire erupted. He couldn't escape. If his car even started moving, it would be one of the first things drilled by the snipers. Traffic around the block was already starting to halt as drivers paniced and swerved or stopped and people exited to get to cover behidn other cars in the lot or behind the short concrete wall aligning the park in front of the building. Nowhere for Mr. Jackson to go. He could see that men were shooting from each side of the building that were visable to him. Bullets were showering down trying to hit him, people under cover around the lot and people fleeing the building. He pulled his AR-15 out from under the back seat, pulled the 30 round magazine from the glove compartment and tried pick of or at least suppress the sniper fire.

Justifiable because his butt is on the line.

Mr. Bobby L. Dabney, a good man who liked to hunt was exiting his car about to go into the courthouse when gunfire erupted on the outside of the FLC. He was in the same situation as Jackson. He pulled his scope mounted 30-06 bolt action from the back of his pickup and tried to pickoff the snipers.

Ditto, because His butt is also threatened.

So there is the story. There are the players. The next question is this. What can be done to prevent this from happening again? More security? Disarming the public? Strip searching everyone who enters the building? OR allowing free carry for everyone who desires to own a gun whereever they choose to carry?

Allow free carry to anyone who can legally do so.

OuTcAsT

March 23, 2006, 11:22 PM

in short, my ONLY responsibility is to cover MY butt and get out alive, LEOs get paid to protect themselves, and God help anyone else who is in this situation and does not choose to carry to defend themselves.

Am I going to try and cover anyone else? (including LE) NO.

Am I going to try to get myself (and anyone in my family) to safety? YES

Do I feel a responsibility to defend the public at large? Probably not.

Am I worried about the appearence I might present to incoming LEOs? Hell Yes!

threegun

March 24, 2006, 07:51 AM

Doug you should be a story writer dude.....with that imagination LOL. I'm gonna haul butt. If I can't, I'm gonna hide. If I happen to have my Colt Accurized Rifle, Mr. 3rd floor window terrorist is a goner. Then I haul butt. If an LEO wants my rifle as I flee, its his (or hers). Outcast has it right, end the direct threat to your life, then run. Leave the rest to the pro's. Even if you can shoot better than most of them LOL.

Crazi

March 24, 2006, 10:32 AM

Granted this is humour but I would run towards the building because you can't get hit when running towards the bad guys. Hollywood has proven this numerous times. A few forward rolls would further confuse their aiming.

Once inside the building, I would activate my "bullet time" (from the Max Payne PS2 video game) and proceed to work my way through the building suprising all the bad guys and then diving between them causing them to shoot each other. Once I have finished with the snipers, I would work my way further upstairs to the rest of the boogie men. I would fire one round from the AR (taken from the snipers) at each bad guys head exploding it upon impact. Situation solved...;)

Now seriously, I would try my best to "contain" the situation law enforcement officer or not... By contain, I mean there are now several citizens returning fire amongst the LE. I do see the possibility for this to go bad but I strongly believe that carrying a weapon is a great reponsibility and if I saw this situation and did not act, I would question MY OWN ability to act in a future situation. I understand that I may be putting my life on the line to assist in a situation where the odds are stacked against me, but I liken this situation to seeing a rape, an assault on a small framed person by a larger person, a group fight against one individual, etc. None of these directly affect me but, in my hesitation to act, an "innocent" life may be lost. The counterpoint to that arguement is that in acting, it is almost assured that a life would be lost if the boogie man persists his/her attack or turns on me. In any situation, I would first call 911 "if possible." If not possible, I would call at the earliest convenience.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thats what makes the world go round. I have never been in a situation close to what was described and only know what I "think" I would do and what I have done in the only situation remotely similar to this. I used to play paintball often and although these are entirely different situations, the adrenalin rush of being shot at is very "enlightening!" :eek:

joebob2000

March 24, 2006, 10:57 AM

What can be done to prevent this from happening again? More security? Disarming the public? Strip searching everyone who enters the building? OR allowing free carry for everyone who desires to own a gun whereever they choose to carry?

What can be done about the scenario as a whole... I don't see disarming or arming citizens as any protection against a band of suicidal, well-armed attackers. So, do you give everyone in the building an AR-15/M4 and the training to use it? Just the 4 guards? Add more trained guards? Where do you draw the line, how do you decide what cost is worth the risk of this happening? Without getting political I will point out that in present day America there is a shortage of armaments and trained personnel (as well as capital), thanks to continuing efforts to make Iraq a safer place to live, instead of investing in intelligence and stateside defensive measures. If you want to change the scenario, you have to start from the ground up.

The first thing to do would be to harden the building itself. If it's a known target (as many gov't buildings are) it needs (and probably already has) a fairly strong entry protection system. First is a pushbutton alarm at the guard station. Tie this to a PA and doorlock system, so that when a threat is detected the building (at least the first floor going upward) is locked down and everyone inside is warned. Putting all your guards (armed or unarmed) at the entryway is a bad idea. Two at most in one place, with two on patrol in the building. Arm and train them, general firearms plus assault defense tactics. Simple things can make a big difference in the long run. Your only hope in this scenario is to stop or slow the attackers through passive means and move the people to safety, before a sizeable force is ready to stop them for good.