Navigation

The Rational Response Squad is a group of atheist activists who impact society by changing the way we view god belief. This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us.

Buy any item on AMAZON, and we'll use the small commission to help end theism, dogma, violence, hatred, and other irrationality. Buy an Xbox 360 -- PS3 -- Laptop -- Apple

The ``rational but barely Christian``

Posted on: November 4, 2009 - 2:33pm

NoMoreCrazyPeople

Posts: 969

Joined: 2009-10-14

Offline

The ``rational but barely Christian``

I've notice of late in many of my discussions with christians Ive met in my day to day life in Vancouver that a large majority are this "rational and barely christian" type. Some may go to church but take very little from it. Some believe in god, many simply cant. They claim they are christian but thats about as far as it goes, there rational mind wont allow them to actually believe any of the miracles in the bible. They see the stories as myth and dismiss them as untrue, yet still have crosses in their homes, or around their necks. Many will even admit they think many of their churches teachings are rediculous even have a sense of humor about some of the real comical verses, yet bring their kids along on sundays. Some pray, most dont from my experience, some hold on to the praying before dinner thing. You can see this in many new age christians, even many priests, they dont really believe, its written clearly in their face, they`re just gowing with the flow of what they know. These people will check the christian box on the faith survey everytime. I think these walking contradictions sway the statistics drastically of how many christians their really are. From my experience it is the slight majority of christians ive met that are somewhat this way, maybe 55-60%. This is in Vancouver a very liberal multi cultural city, many athiests, gay radio hosts etc... Where is everybody from on the site? And do yo see as much of these types in your area? I dont meet very many who seem to be truly genuine christians and are strong in their convictions and tell their bible stories with pride, very few indeed, where did they all go?

Im from south africa and Tbh that is the impression I have gotten from roughly 90% of christians i know. They say they are christians and say believe in god but that is as far as it goes. They don't go to church, they do go to youth though. Topic has never come up but i get the feeling they don't take the bible seriously as they make jokes at its expense. But iv heard that there are quite a few serious christians quite close to where i live, I don't know them though. The church where bout 300 people go to youth isn't really youth, i used to go there when i was at school.... When you get there you like up your choice of either a ciggarettes or weed or both with an opition bottle of your favourite alchhol (discised as fruit juice or something)..... then an hour later some people get up on stage and hold competitions with jesus over tones then a band plays a few songs (not a christian band though). Those are the christians i know. Quite a nice night though i won't deny.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.

Sounds like the suburbs of Chicago ~ or, at least some of the people I have spent time with. I call these people the "worried about what the neighbors would think" type of christians. They are quick to joke about the miracles of the bible and roll their eyes at the knowledge they have to attend church on Sunday, but they will not admit that they find their whole belief structure (as unstable that belief is in these examples) built on an ancient myth.

Now, with that said, I have met many people that don't believe in a god and I have had encounters with many people that think religion is the problem but aren't too bothered with the Jesus story ~ I have had coffee with pastors who hold to their beliefs as if it is their life's essence and I have had conversations with a gay episcopalian priest who believes he is going to heaven, even though the bible implies differently. So many people ~ so many different views.

I don't know if there is a way to measure the true beliefs a person holds NoMoreCrazyPeople ~ all we each have are handfuls of personal experiences.

I'd love to see you come over to TheologyWeb and debate some of these arguments that you spew forth. Especially this one. Here, you can get away with most of it because the peope on here share your opinions. This is a friendly forum for you. But the good folks at TWeb would never let you get away with this crap.

C'mon over. I post as VenomX on TWeb. I hope to see you there!

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

I'd love to see you come over to TheologyWeb and debate some of these arguments that you spew forth. Especially this one. Here, you can get away with most of it because the peope on here share your opinions. This is a friendly forum for you. But the good folks at TWeb would never let you get away with this crap.

C'mon over. I post as VenomX on TWeb. I hope to see you there!

Yaaa, thanks Cory but last time we spoke you wrote something along the lines of ``How do you know the T-Rex was a carnivore, have you observed one``

You see its things like this that keep me here with my likeminded bretherin. I have no intention of chating with the masses of ignorant christians, i can only handle a few a day, i have no gospel forcing me to convert you therefor i have no reason to go into the crazies den. I also didn`t state that my percentage is accurate for everyone, its what i have observed, another observed 90%. Maybe you observe less in your world, go ahead and explain your observations. In my experience 95% of the people i have met in every social activitiy i engage in (parties,work,friends,family,bar,randoms,etc..) are either completely neutral to religion and dismiss the stories as myth, whether they believe in god or not is one thing but they dont claim any religion and would certainly disagree with many of the teachings in the bible. Out of the remaining 5% of religion claiming theists i`ve met about 50-60% of them are these ladida christians dont really care about the real teachins in the bible. I would say it to be a very accurate number from my experiences in my area that about 95% of everyone ive had any real discussions with are either religiously neutral and may or may not believe in god, or athiest, or couldnt care enough to even form an opignion. Its funny that the remaining 2% i know to be bellievers and ``bible thumpers``are quick to hide their beliefs in social situations because rational inspection of their beliefs leads to public embaressment. Now im sure this is untrue on the crews you role with Cory, and im sure some areas are different, but in my experience the percentage of people i`ve met that would say outloud in any social situuation they believe in all the stories in the bible and stand behind their moral worth is patheticallly low, i mean very very very few. Where you from Cory?

Are you saying that you can't defend your claims against a hostile forum and that you would rather post among like-minded individuals to maintain your comfortable delusion of atheism?

Maybe he can't and he would. Could you tell me what you mean by, 'comfortable delusion of atheism.'?

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."

I don't think people can be "barely Christian". As long as they believe in God and hold Jesus as their saviour, then they're Christian regardless of other beliefs/actions

there is more to christianity than god and jesus... e.g. the holy spirit

I think holding "the word of god",the bible seriously probably factors in somewhere.

But o well if you cliam you are christian your are are christian i guess.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.

I don't think people can be "barely Christian". As long as they believe in God and hold Jesus as their saviour, then they're Christian regardless of other beliefs/actions

I couldn't disagree more soundly. Christianity begins with accepting Jesus as your own personal savior. But it is a lifestyle choice, too. Many so-called "Christians" want to be so for various reasons that have nothing to do with pleasing God and attempting to live a life that emulates Christ.

There is such a thing as a true Christian versus a false Christian, no matter what you guys say.

Accepting the authority of Scripture is part of it, and NoMoreCrazyPeople touched on that subject in the OP: some Christians don't accept the authority of Scripture. Most don't want to. Most don't want to admit that, once a person makes that profession of faith, they are no longer their own; they belong to God.

So, I disagree with the Captain. It is possible to be "barely Christian," and, in disagreement with most atheists, it is even possible not to be a "true Christian."

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

I don't think people can be "barely Christian". As long as they believe in God and hold Jesus as their saviour, then they're Christian regardless of other beliefs/actions

I couldn't disagree more soundly. Christianity begins with accepting Jesus as your own personal savior. But it is a lifestyle choice, too. Many so-called "Christians" want to be so for various reasons that have nothing to do with pleasing God and attempting to live a life that emulates Christ.

There is such a thing as a true Christian versus a false Christian, no matter what you guys say.

Accepting the authority of Scripture is part of it, and NoMoreCrazyPeople touched on that subject in the OP: some Christians don't accept the authority of Scripture. Most don't want to. Most don't want to admit that, once a person makes that profession of faith, they are no longer their own; they belong to God.

So, I disagree with the Captain. It is possible to be "barely Christian," and, in disagreement with most atheists, it is even possible not to be a "true Christian."

Of course it all comes down to what you mean by "believe in God" and "hold Jesus as their savior." Does that mean believing that the Bible is the literal word of God? Does that mean accepting particular doctrinal ideas about who or what God is, who or what Jesus was? Certain beliefs about the afterlife (presumably dependent on one's understanding of God and what it means for someone to be your "savior" )?

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Ayn Rand

what claims, these are my experiences, i dont have to defend the experiences ive had of these numbers, the numbers are true to my experience. I left it open for everyone to mention their experience on the issue, even you.

Cory T wrote:

against a hostile forum and that you would rather post among like-minded individuals to maintain your comfortable delusion of atheism?

not so much likeminded i guess as rational, i ike to spend my time with rational groups of people yes, in my experience i have found athiests to be more rational. Why is your christian forum so hostile, thats not a good word for you to use to explain your supposedly accepting christian friends. To be honest cory i`ve had many discussions with firm believing ``true christians``, i find most of them loopy, spaced out, irrational, and cartoonlike, in laymans they annoy me. Anywhere that groups of christians get togethewr to act all christanee is somewhere i would normally avoid, not because i cant defend my position, because you all kind of creep me out in those bible thumping groups n i make an effort to stay away from groups of annoying people. I can speak with you individually, but a bunch of cory t`s claiming the t-rex may have been a herbivore would surely make my head explode, and i like my head.

So, I disagree with the Captain. It is possible to be "barely Christian," and, in disagreement with most atheists, it is even possible not to be a "true Christian."

That is a strange comment re "true Christian". It sounds like you don't really understand the context where that phrase is used.

It should be a no-brainer that atheists would have no problem with the idea that someone might not be a "true Christian", in the simple sense of such a description.

It is typically used in a somewhat ironic or sarcastic sense, to poke fun at the accusations made by one Christian group or individual about another group or individual also claiming to be Christian when they disagree about some practice or point of doctrine, where each might in turn accuse the other of not being a "true Christian".

I'd love to see you come over to TheologyWeb and debate some of these arguments that you spew forth. Especially this one. Here, you can get away with most of it because the peope on here share your opinions. This is a friendly forum for you. But the good folks at TWeb would never let you get away with this crap.

C'mon over. I post as VenomX on TWeb. I hope to see you there!

I lurk at different theological forums. I view Muslim forums ( even more anal than the average Christian ), and sometimes go to Mormon forums, etc. It depends on what group I'm interested in at the moment. ( ...actually, the pagan community is pretty cool )

Anyway concerning most religions I find the same attitudes and issues covered over and over. No matter your personal devotion to Christianity I have found that religion is just religion.

I don't actively participate on those religious forums for the same reasons I don't attend church .......because I don't have anything in common with them .....and because I am a former Christian, I've heard these arguments many times before. It's actually quite boring.

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Ayn Rand

I don't actively participate on those religious forums for the same reasons I don't attend church .......because I don't have anything in common with them .....and because I am a former Christian, I've heard these arguments many times before. It's actually quite boring.

Exactly, i was raised christian, i know whats in the bible, i know what their claims are, its the same arguments over and over, it is taxing.

Are you saying that you can't defend your claims against a hostile forum and that you would rather post among like-minded individuals to maintain your comfortable delusion of atheism?

Also on this site i find many people posts of great value. When i ask a scientific question, i get an anadulterated scientific awsner that is then critisized or confirmed by the other posters. I wish not to get awnsers filtered through christianity. Some people here have great knowledge i would like to aqquire, half the stuff bobspence wrights when he gets going i have to read over a few times. I know what you believe, i have enough knowledge of christianity to know its something i dont need to know more about. And so i will stay around groups that continue to enlighten me and listen to people on the journey for knowledge and enlightenment, thanks.

So, in your mind, all a person has to do is claim the title of "Christian," and BAM! they're a Christian?

No, where did i say that, the hole point was that most people i meet who claim christianity as their faith are so obviously not `true christians`` and by true christians i mean those who adhere strictly to the bibles teachings, and arn`t afraid to admit it. In my opignion if you dont live it, your not a christian, and so back to my original statement that a massive number of self-proclaimed christians arn`t christians at all, and that dramatically sways the statistics of how many christians their are is all, and how their few and far between in my day to day life which is a pretty regular one.

Cory T wrote:

Can I claim the title of atheist and still believe in God? Would that make me not a true atheist?

Thats just a dumdum comparison, athiests dont subdevide our ``lack of believe in god``into dozens of catogories and all have a different take on the issue. Its simple, we dont believe in god, if you do believe in god your not an athiest. Athiest dont argue internallly about what it means to be a true athiest, because its obviouus, what a terrible comparison.

So, in your mind, all a person has to do is claim the title of "Christian," and BAM! they're a Christian?

Can I claim the title of atheist and still believe in God? Would that make me not a true atheist?

Of course not.

If they appear to give every indication of being an 'real' Christian, claim to believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible, etc, especially if they are part of a group all professing the same version of the doctrine, I will just take their word for it, that they actually appear to consider themselves 'Christian'. If someone is making a claim to follow basic Christian principles, I am not going to hook them up to a lie detector, I will take their word for it unless I see or hear about them doing or saying something which seems inconsistent with even the wildest interpretations of the religion I have heard about.

Just as with Atheist, although the only requirement there is that they lack a belief in God.

But the issue is really what I said, its about their being so many different groups all claiming to have the only true and correct interpretation of the Bible in some sort of dispute with each other. And us looking on from outside with this clear demonstration of the problems with the faith-based approach to "truth" - they all seem to have just as much conviction, claims from personal experience, and so on, that their particular version is the "true" one, when it is blindingly obvious that, even allowing for some differences in personal view-point, they simply cannot all be "true". Which makes our conclusion "none of the above" perfectly reasonable.

Yes, disgraced pastor Ted Haggard would be a so-called Christian. "Believer" is not synomous with "Christian." Haggard may very well believe that Jesus is his Lord and Savior, but his actions seem to indicate otherwise. He may have mentally assented to the tenets of Christianity, but he hasn't embraced them and allowed them to change his life.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

So, in your mind, all a person has to do is claim the title of "Christian," and BAM! they're a Christian?

No, where did i say that, the hole point was that most people i meet who claim christianity as their faith are so obviously not `true christians`` and by true christians i mean those who adhere strictly to the bibles teachings, and arn`t afraid to admit it. In my opignion if you dont live it, your not a christian, and so back to my original statement that a massive number of self-proclaimed christians arn`t christians at all, and that dramatically sways the statistics of how many christians their are is all, and how their few and far between in my day to day life which is a pretty regular one.

I was directing the above at Cpt. Pineapple. She's the one that said that.

You I actually agree with: few (if any) of the people who claim the title of Christianity are "true Christians." Cpt. Pineapple seems to think that all you have to do is say you're a Christian and BAM! You're a Christian.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Cory T wrote:

Can I claim the title of atheist and still believe in God? Would that make me not a true atheist?

Thats just a dumdum comparison, athiests dont subdevide our ``lack of believe in god``into dozens of catogories and all have a different take on the issue. Its simple, we dont believe in god, if you do believe in god your not an athiest. Athiest dont argue internallly about what it means to be a true athiest, because its obviouus, what a terrible comparison.

Actually, they do. There is no unity on where morality comes from, for instance. There are as many theories about who Jesus really was as there are atheists. You all have many takes on all of the various issues. Don't claim unity where there is none.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

So would King David be a "so-called" Jew in light of his well known record of murder, adultery, etc.....

Throughout his adult life King David was truly a morally ambivalent man, his sins were more than enough to have him killed under Mosaic Law. He had severe and prolonged lapses of obedience that not only affected him but destroyed many innocent lives as well.

So in light of his many repeated moral failures was he constantly hopping back and forth across that arbitrary line that defined him as a "so-called" Jew ?

One minute he is a Jew, then he isn't a Jew, then he is, then he isn't ......

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Ayn Rand

So would King David be a "so-called" Jew in light of his well known record of murder, adultery, etc.....

Throughout his adult life King David was truly a morally ambivalent man, his sins were more than enough to have him killed under Mosaic Law. He had severe and prolonged lapses of obedience that not only affected him but destroyed many innocent lives as well.

So in light of his many repeated moral failures was he constantly hopping back and forth across that arbitrary line that defined him as a "so-called" Jew ?

One minute he is a Jew, then he isn't a Jew, then he is, then he isn't ......

The Bible says that King David was a man after God's own heart. Reason: He repented for his sins. If I see some evidence of this from Ted Haggard, maybe I'll change my position. Right now, I just think he's sorry he got caught. But I do give him props for removing himself from ministry. That is a step in the right direction, and much more than most ministers in similar circumstances do.

I have the Bible to go on with King David. It clearly says that he repented and found favor with God. But I have nothing other than a few news articles to go on with Ted Haggard. The comparison isn't fair.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

The Bible says that King David was a man after God's own heart. Reason: He repented for his sins.

It's a pretty bold thing to say that King David's repentance made him a man after god's own heart. I can't imagine god repenting for any sins so they can have had no similarity of heart.

Of course god gets into killing people so maybe they had that rage thing in common instead. Tho in god's case it would be that he was soooo holy and sooooo just he just couldn't let a single sin go unpunished without the loss of his integrity.

Or maybe being a man after god's own heart, assuming god has one, or considering that any human characteristics are contained in our hearts, means something quite different. That the development and/or presence of a working conscience is the greatest achievement a man can attain.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

And in this case there's nothing much wrong with it. From the outside of the church and the outside of people's minds you can't make judgments about true belief and nor does god encourage the believer to do so. NoMoreCrazy is not making an argument anyway, he's making conversation and asking for input.

This said, Crazy, I grew up in the evangelical church and there's no doubt that from within there are delineations and if you know what you are looking for there are definitely 'true christians' and those who offer lip-service. My minister father and missionary mother wrestled with these false christians all the time. It's not possible for born agains and new age type christians to find common ground - they are like chalk and cheese. Dad preferred non christians to false christians.

On the subject of true christians, I do believe is that christianity is evolving - and that includes what cory might call true christianity though he may simply be lauding fundamentalism. Many true christians have gone a bit soft on some elements and interpretations of the text - the possibility of a real hell, the seven day creation and the possibility of an evolved creation. They just say they're not sure about certain points and are are not as insistent as they might have once been about the Gaderine swine and dead men walking. There's more focus on the love and forgiveness of jesus and less on the retribution and sadistic torment that await the dubious.

My elder brother David, who is the most jesus-like of all the christians I associate with, refuses to believe in satan, maintaining there's insufficient proof for his existence. David's a phd and the most scientific christian I know though I tend to think but cannot prove, that his faith is underpinned by what we cannot know.

I'd be interested to hear if the fundamentalist christians here would maintain he's wrong in his position, or if they could offer proof outside of the bible for the existence of satan. Fact is, I think most strong believers would maintain David is wrong and might question his core belief as well. For the record, David embraces miracles and all the rest, including the impossible passages in the NT where the narrator is quoting word for word conversations Jesus is having with Satan, while Jesus is alone.

Personally, I love an evolving religion - it proves Lamarck was right at any rate.

Cory T - it's interesting you've chosen a Galileo tag. I hope it's not simply there because you've got the poor fellow in a headlock. Guys like Galileo, Darwin and Wallace were the braves of their time and you wouldn't want to disrespect them for your own callow purposes.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

The Bible says that King David was a man after God's own heart. Reason: He repented for his sins. If I see some evidence of this from Ted Haggard, maybe I'll change my position. Right now, I just think he's sorry he got caught. But I do give him props for removing himself from ministry. That is a step in the right direction, and much more than most ministers in similar circumstances do.

I have the Bible to go on with King David. It clearly says that he repented and found favor with God. But I have nothing other than a few news articles to go on with Ted Haggard. The comparison isn't fair.

The comparison is totally appropriate...which is precisely why I selected it.

You totally dodged my question Cory. Kind of like how on an another thread you avoided answering my question about whether the obviously carnivorous predators T-Rex were vegetarians before the advent of Original Sin.

....And yes I know that David repented, ....then he went out and deliberately sinned again, ....the he repented, ....then he went out and sinned it again. Do you really not understand what I was asking ?

Let me make one last attempt at simplifying my question:

When a religious Jew deliberately sins then they aren't really a Jew anymore....until they repent ?

And when a Christian deliberately sins they aren't really a Christian anymore....until they repent ?

Btw Cory there are some highly intelligent Christians who choose to debate on atheist forums but unfortunately the majority of the Christians choose to offer the type of "answers" that you have so far provided. I don't have the patience to sift through deliberate obfuscation.

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Ayn Rand

So, the silly ass creationist from youtube graces us with his presence? How nice.

Cory T wrote:

The Bible says that King David was a man after God's own heart. Reason: He repented for his sins. If I see some evidence of this from Ted Haggard, maybe I'll change my position. Right now, I just think he's sorry he got caught.

I'm amazed at your ability to be able to psychoanalyze both men and determine that the murderer who showed no signs of "repentance" until a prophet called him out is such a better person than the dude who got caught fucking the wrong person and buying meth. You'll have to document how you could perform such a miraculous divination.

Quote:

But I do give him props for removing himself from ministry. That is a step in the right direction, and much more than most ministers in similar circumstances do.

Yeah, if all the money-grubbing assholes fleecing ignorant fools removed themselves, there would be no churches to make fun of.

Quote:

I have the Bible to go on with King David. It clearly says that he repented and found favor with God. But I have nothing other than a few news articles to go on with Ted Haggard. The comparison isn't fair.

Well, thankfully your illogical, ahistorical, unscientific and all around irrational book of Semitic mythology is here to help you make such crucial determinations. I've seen how it "helps" you with grasping science, too. Are you still making the utterly stupid and vacuous arguments you kept putting up on your ill conceived website?

All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.

So, in your mind, all a person has to do is claim the title of "Christian," and BAM! they're a Christian?

No, where did i say that, the hole point was that most people i meet who claim christianity as their faith are so obviously not `true christians`` and by true christians i mean those who adhere strictly to the bibles teachings, and arn`t afraid to admit it. In my opignion if you dont live it, your not a christian, and so back to my original statement that a massive number of self-proclaimed christians arn`t christians at all, and that dramatically sways the statistics of how many christians their are is all, and how their few and far between in my day to day life which is a pretty regular one.

I was directing the above at Cpt. Pineapple. She's the one that said that.

You I actually agree with: few (if any) of the people who claim the title of Christianity are "true Christians." Cpt. Pineapple seems to think that all you have to do is say you're a Christian and BAM! You're a Christian.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

Cory T wrote:

Can I claim the title of atheist and still believe in God? Would that make me not a true atheist?

Thats just a dumdum comparison, athiests dont subdevide our ``lack of believe in god``into dozens of catogories and all have a different take on the issue. Its simple, we dont believe in god, if you do believe in god your not an athiest. Athiest dont argue internallly about what it means to be a true athiest, because its obviouus, what a terrible comparison.

Actually, they do. There is no unity on where morality comes from, for instance. There are as many theories about who Jesus really was as there are atheists. You all have many takes on all of the various issues. Don't claim unity where there is none.

ok, here we go again. atheism=lack of belief in god or gods.

period.

end of story.

there cannot be division on this matter because there is no positive assertion. just like you cannot divide zero, you cannot divide on the LACK OF an issue.

many of us ARE divided on the issues of ethics, the origin of ethics, the jesus debate, biblical criticism, quranic criticism, historical materialism, positivism, existentialism, politology, criminology, and even the culinary arts. none of these issues are directly dependent on or directly related to atheism, which, once again, (are you watching?), is the ABSENCE OF A POSITION.

of course, said absence can INFORM our views on other areas in which we DO make positive assertions, but on the issue of atheism we are firmly united: we don't believe in any god(s). you cannot qualify that without losing the status of atheist.

am i being quite clear?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

Can I claim the title of atheist and still believe in God? Would that make me not a true atheist?

Adding the word "true" is annoying. It doesn't mean jack shit. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in God. Therefore, if you believe in God, you're not an atheist.

Cory T wrote:

Actually, they do. There is no unity on where morality comes from, for instance. There are as many theories about who Jesus really was as there are atheists. You all have many takes on all of the various issues. Don't claim unity where there is none.

Atheists disagree on things, but that doesn't mean anyone is more or less atheist than anyone else or that there are "true" atheists and "false" atheists. If you don't believe in God, you're an atheist. That's it. 100%. Whatever else you believe is irrelevant to whether or not you're an atheist.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

Are you saying that you can't defend your claims against a hostile forum and that you would rather post among like-minded individuals to maintain your comfortable delusion of atheism?

First I'll admit I am not totally comfortable going to a hostile forum to defend my position on a lot of subjects. I have a poor memory. Most of the info I know about science I've only read once or twice, so the details are fuzzy. I would have to spend far too long looking up subjects to review and refresh my memory to make it worth my while. The exception would be subjects I'm passionate about. I have gone on fundy forums, and debated fundies on other forums on those subjects.

Not only am I not ashamed to admit that, but I happen to know first hand that most devout theists have a distinct advantage in that situation. You see I had to come by the vast majority of my scientific knowledge through self directed studying and reading. The devout religious person has all their most central info drilled into them by sermons, bible study, Sunday school, youth group, parents and relatives, and home school (in some cases.) I used to be a Christian so I know how much reinforcement is used for the indoctrination. On top of that, in many cases the majority of their info comes from ONE book. Most of the other info they read is constantly referring back to that one book. One book's worth of scientific knowledge amounts to squat basically.

Anyway. On to the more interesting part of your question. You have dodged the question of what "comfortable delusion of Atheism" is! I would be extremely interested in your answer to that!

"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of﻿ Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper–namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit. Reading some of the atheistic arguments from this place, I get the impression that you guys simply don't want there to be a God. Atheism, in my opinion, is the emotional reaction, not the rational one.

If I could assail every doubt that you had that God existed, would it change your life much, or not?

And, "VenomX" did not originate with that idiot VenomFangX on YouTube. I am not him. Don't confuse me with him. I used the moniker VenomX long before he came on the scene. So whoever correlated us is a moron that hasn't done his homework.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

It's a pretty bold thing to say that King David's repentance made him a man after god's own heart. I can't imagine god repenting for any sins so they can have had no similarity of heart.

God doesn't sin. Therefore, repentance is not necessary.

Quote:

Of course god gets into killing people so maybe they had that rage thing in common instead. Tho in god's case it would be that he was soooo holy and sooooo just he just couldn't let a single sin go unpunished without the loss of his integrity.

This is true; though I don't expect that you believe that it is.

Quote:

Or maybe being a man after god's own heart, assuming god has one, or considering that any human characteristics are contained in our hearts, means something quite different. That the development and/or presence of a working conscience is the greatest achievement a man can attain.

Could be. I'm still guessing repentence because that is the entire message of the New Testament.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. --Galileo Galilei

To me, the idea of is such a primitive idea, that makes no sense whatsoever in the light of current understanding of "Life, the Universe, and Everything", that raises so many unanswerable questions while not actually answering anything in any intelligible or useful way, that I would have to have a lobotomy to accept it.

If such an entity actually existed, the idea that any mortal could really know anything with any confidence about its ultimate purposes or motives is fundamentally absurd.

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism."

Doesn't sound like he's very comfortable with his "delusion". If religion and the concept of god scare him that much, then why doesn't he just become a theist ?

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit.

So you are attempting to use atheist philosopher Nagel's personal viewpoint and project it onto the vast majority of atheists on this forum ?

......because we are atheists, therefore Nagel speaks for us ?

David Koresh said a lot of controversial things ,too....does he speak for the majority of theists ?

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Ayn Rand

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

Well, of course. Who the fuck would want to be ruled over by a tyrannical psychopath like the blood god you seem to favor?

Quote:

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit. Reading some of the atheistic arguments from this place, I get the impression that you guys simply don't want there to be a God. Atheism, in my opinion, is the emotional reaction, not the rational one.

I see no evidence for a god, nasty Middle Eastern blood sacrifice deity or not. So, pony up some empirical evidence or admit that you cling to the notion of a god because you are too weak to handle reality without your security blanket, like a scared little child. See how the emotional projection argument works yet?

Quote:

If I could assail every doubt that you had that God existed, would it change your life much, or not?

Of course. It would make me a theist. So, feel free to pony up actual evidence. I've spent years arguing online and in person with a lot of very bright theists, and they all retreat to special pleading and complain that I'm the bad guy for not accepting emotional pleas in theplace of empirical evidence. The real question is, if I dismantle all of your theistic arguments, would it change YOUR life much, or not? From my experience with other theists, I think I know the answer.

Quote:

And, "VenomX" did not originate with that idiot VenomFangX on YouTube. I am not him. Don't confuse me with him. I used the moniker VenomX long before he came on the scene. So whoever correlated us is a moron that hasn't done his homework.

Ah, well, that's good. I hadn't heard from the little dipshit in a while, and figured he had grown enough balls to actually show up for a real debate. I apologize for mistaking you for the ignorant little bastard.

All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.

I don't think people can be "barely Christian". As long as they believe in God and hold Jesus as their saviour, then they're Christian regardless of other beliefs/actions

I couldn't disagree more soundly. Christianity begins with accepting Jesus as your own personal savior. But it is a lifestyle choice, too. Many so-called "Christians" want to be so for various reasons that have nothing to do with pleasing God and attempting to live a life that emulates Christ.

There is such a thing as a true Christian versus a false Christian, no matter what you guys say.

Accepting the authority of Scripture is part of it, and NoMoreCrazyPeople touched on that subject in the OP: some Christians don't accept the authority of Scripture. Most don't want to. Most don't want to admit that, once a person makes that profession of faith, they are no longer their own; they belong to God.

So, I disagree with the Captain. It is possible to be "barely Christian," and, in disagreement with most atheists, it is even possible not to be a "true Christian."

The Captain pointed out that you are arguing a "no true Scotsman" and you continue to do so.

The term Christian is simply a label given to those that have at some point accepted the Jesus story and consider him to be their savior. No more. What you are doing is judging behavior of individuals which is not your job. The Jesus in the Bible makes it clear only the Father can do that. You seem to be trying to determine who is in the so called "Book of Life" and who is not.

As far as the term Christian goes Haggard should be considered one based on his profession of belief. So too is the case for Augustine, Ambrose, and John Chrystom though their influences can be construed to be the cause of much death and evil. The Crusaders considered themselves Christian as did the Inquisitors. Whether or not these people make it into the mythical "Book of Life" clearly is not subject to your judgment. Your Jesus makes it clear only the God makes these decisions. Stop arguing about what your God considers to be embracing his words because according to your Bible you claim to embrace with such reverence it's not for you to know.

How can you know what is in the mind of another? Simply from their actions? Apparently not all the time as daily this approach is shown to fail. Read the news, Fort Hood, massacres at Virginia Tech, shootings in Orlando on Friday, etc. Humans can be very secretive and deceptive about their ultimate desires and direction. Whether or not a person really believes truly the Jesus stories has nothing at all to do whether or not they belong to a group called Christians. For every person that claims to be a Christian there is a different interpretation to what that ultimately means. You are attempting to define it in your set of values as to what a Christian is supposedly and doing so in the judgmental way your savior has specifically told you not to do.

In the South, many claiming to be Christian consider it to be a sin to work on Sunday. Catholicism holds that preventing birth even using condoms is a sin. Seventh Day Adventists believe eating pork is a sin. They would consider in their judgment to be actions not consistent with being a"true believer"

Yet, all of them fit the general definition of a Christian.

Try another approach.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper–namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

Great, why do i care how this guys feels, he doesnt represent me, i represent me.

Cory T wrote:

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit.

I doubt that, but i wouldn't assume neither, so i'll let the respnses speak for themselves, it surely doesnt sum up my position.

Cory T wrote:

Reading some of the atheistic arguments from this place, I get the impression that you guys simply don't want there to be a God. Atheism, in my opinion, is the emotional reaction, not the rational one.

Well cory when your speaking of the god you are (an immorral dictator stricking the fear of hell into people who dont kiss his ass) your right about 1 thing many athiests i'm sure do have an emotional reaction to this, why wouldn't we, why wouldn't we "feel" something when we think of a belief that makes us sick. I have done years of critical thought on this god thing looking at the world the universe etc, about 20yrs, and their is only 2 logical conclusions i can come to A)-Their is no god or B)-Their is a god but he's no better than the average man full of average mans bad emotions (jealousy, greed, pride, hate, anger, rage etc..) and therefore i would never worship him. Now given the fact their is no real evidence of this common minded bad god of yours, and overwhelming evidence the world and life came aboout naturally i choose the former even before envolking emotion, it just makes more sense to me personally. But yes, the more i think about the world and your silly bible the more cartoon like your god becomes to me, and the more i am repulsed by him, so sure a part of me does NOT want this universe to be governed by your god, i think that woud be a terrible thing. But this in no way means i chose athiesm based on emotion, i chose athiesm based on fact and rational critical thought, the emotion that i dont like your god, and certainly dont want him to rule the universe is a bi-product of that critical thought.

Cory T wrote:

If I could assail every doubt that you had that God existed, would it change your life much, or not?

Yes and Yes!!!. Is that not why we are here, to hear you attempt to assail every doubt. If you could give us some demonstrable evidence for your god, im sure that wold change many athiests lives, remember we are bound by our rational minds not our lack of belief in god, the former takes precidence over the latter. BUT!!! Like i said most athiests find your god dispicable, so even if you proved his existence, and he turned out to be the sick god of your bible that wouldnt change the fact we'de refuse to worship him, we may be forced to believe in him but no one can make us worship him. I believe in hitler, i would never worship him.

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

If there was good evidence that there is a God, I would be a theist. In fact, sometimes, I think it would be nice if there was a loving intelligence out there, but there isn't.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

Yeah, we just have this silly emotional revulsion to believing in stuff just because it might make us feel good.

I lack the ability to suppress the knowledge that my pet beliefs might have no real justification, you know, like based just on something like 'faith' rather than 'truth', or at least some plausible evidence and argument.

The 'leap of faith' thing just doesn't seem to work for me, sorry.

I get this horrible nagging guilty feeling whenever I even try to ignore the fact that someone has presented an argument against some long-held idea which I can't quite easily refute. I am not joking here.

That's the bind you get in when you commit yourself to trying to get close to the Truth about reality rather than just trusting in some imaginary friend.

I get this horrible nagging guilty feeling whenever I even try to ignore the fact that someone has presented an argument against some long-held idea which I can't quite easily refute. I am not joking here.

That's the bind you get in when you commit yourself to trying to get close to the Truth about reality rather than just trusting in some imaginary friend.

That's a major difference in the way some theists, and (probably, I'm guessing here) most Atheists think. Cognitive dissonance bothers us.... whereas they have to suppress it in order to continue believing!

"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of﻿ Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper–namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.

Did you catch that? "It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit. Reading some of the atheistic arguments from this place, I get the impression that you guys simply don't want there to be a God. Atheism, in my opinion, is the emotional reaction, not the rational one.

If I could assail every doubt that you had that God existed, would it change your life much, or not?

And, "VenomX" did not originate with that idiot VenomFangX on YouTube. I am not him. Don't confuse me with him. I used the moniker VenomX long before he came on the scene. So whoever correlated us is a moron that hasn't done his homework.

I have a problem with one statement right off the bat:

Cory T wrote:

That is what I mean by "comfortable delusion of atheism." I think that quote sums up more atheistic positions than anyone on this forum will admit.

Are you really propping up your argument by insinuating that we have reason to lie about our position? I would have thought that if anything was obvious about Atheists on this forum, it's that we come right out and say what we think. I for one have nothing to hide, and I'm sure the vast majority here would say the same.

Figuring out that an overwhelming amount of objective scientific evidence across numerous disciplines contradicts all the worlds religious texts, is not an emotional response.

Figuring out that the promises of eternal salvation and utter bliss, not having to fear your own death as well as easing the emotionally turmoil of the deaths of loved ones, are false... not convenient or comfortable in the least. Neither is the loss of the realization that all your sins will be forgiven, and that no matter what god will always love you. Any illusion of someone up there protecting you is gone. I watched a friend go into a serious depression over exactly these realizations. It was anything but comfortable from the outside or from his point of view.

Coming to an Atheistic position from a religious one through rational critical thought usually follows a similar pattern from what I've seen. The first part is an intellectual awakening, then an UNcomfortable feeling of loss of security, and finally you realize that all the major religious texts are depraved and disgusting. It's only then that an emotional response spurs some to rail against the BS infecting our society.

Look at it from this position. Let's pretend for a moment that your religion is 100% true. There are still hundreds of other false religions out there influencing their adherents to live, and act on false doctrines. Their beliefs result is political clashes, ideological clashes, hatred, bigotry, violence, war, etc. etc. Now take a step back, take your god colored glasses off and pretend you live on a planet where all the religions are false. Really think about it, if you have the guts.

"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of﻿ Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."

I get this horrible nagging guilty feeling whenever I even try to ignore the fact that someone has presented an argument against some long-held idea which I can't quite easily refute. I am not joking here.

That's the bind you get in when you commit yourself to trying to get close to the Truth about reality rather than just trusting in some imaginary friend.

That's a major difference in the way some theists, and (probably, I'm guessing here) most Atheists think. Cognitive dissonance bothers us.... whereas they have to suppress it in order to continue believing!

That's a great way of putting it - I haven't quite thought of it that way before.

That's a great way of putting it - I haven't quite thought of it that way before.

Thanks. I think this is a crucial concept to use when trying to make a theist understand where I'm coming from.

"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of﻿ Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."

I've notice of late in many of my discussions with christians Ive met in my day to day life in Vancouver that a large majority are this "rational and barely christian" type. Some may go to church but take very little from it. Some believe in god, many simply cant. They claim they are christian but thats about as far as it goes, there rational mind wont allow them to actually believe any of the miracles in the bible. They see the stories as myth and dismiss them as untrue, yet still have crosses in their homes, or around their necks. Many will even admit they think many of their churches teachings are rediculous even have a sense of humor about some of the real comical verses, yet bring their kids along on sundays. Some pray, most dont from my experience, some hold on to the praying before dinner thing. You can see this in many new age christians, even many priests, they dont really believe, its written clearly in their face, they`re just gowing with the flow of what they know. These people will check the christian box on the faith survey everytime. I think these walking contradictions sway the statistics drastically of how many christians their really are. From my experience it is the slight majority of christians ive met that are somewhat this way, maybe 55-60%. This is in Vancouver a very liberal multi cultural city, many athiests, gay radio hosts etc... Where is everybody from on the site? And do yo see as much of these types in your area? I dont meet very many who seem to be truly genuine christians and are strong in their convictions and tell their bible stories with pride, very few indeed, where did they all go?

Yes it seems that Theism is slowly dying out. Maybe proclaiming the word of Atheist (lol) was not in vain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You cannot disprove the existance of God, but you also cannot disprove the existance of an all powerfull, incomprehesible, pink elephant that lives in the boot of my car.