Recommended Posts

El Dildo
14,393

El Dildo
14,393

"...the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies. Our belief that all people - even captured enemies - possess basic human rights, which are protected by international conventions that the United States not only joined, but for the most part authored."

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

GrandMaster Smith
759

GrandMaster Smith
759

Massive spying and surveillance, endless wars, military police who get away with murder on a daily basis, the patriot act, NDAA, torturing people.. it's disgusting what the U.S. has become. I think the worst part is that in a months time the majority are going to have already forgotten about this and it'll just continue to go on. I almost feel bad for the people who are in any way trying to defend this.. you've got to be brainwashed as hell.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Stephan90
823

Stephan90
823

119 cases of torture were discribed in those around 500 pages. 26 people were totally innocent. People were caught just because the CIA messed up their names or mistook them for others. Some of the innocent people didn't receive any financial compensation until today.

According to human rights organisations the number of innocents captured is much higher than the report admits. The New York Times reported about Mohammed al-Asad who was kept in a prison cell for months without have havin been asked questions, before he got his freedom back.

Share on other sites

Docfaustino
320

Docfaustino
320

"...the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies. Our belief that all people - even captured enemies - possess basic human rights, which are protected by international conventions that the United States not only joined, but for the most part authored."

this is the John McCain I would have actually voted for in 2008. sans-Palin of course.

Other than his naiive interventionist foreign policy, McCain is genuinely not a bad guy and is someone I respect. One of the "few good men" left in the GOP. Hates Ted Cruz for pulling the government shutdown, anti-torture, willing to compromise when necessary. Unfortunately, his association with Sarah Palin and push to intervene in the Russo-Georgia war will always harm his image but he's still a good man.

Massive spying and surveillance, endless wars, military police who get away with murder on a daily basis, the patriot act, NDAA, torturing people.. it's disgusting what the U.S. has become. I think the worst part is that in a months time the majority are going to have already forgotten about this and it'll just continue to go on. I almost feel bad for the people who are in any way trying to defend this.. you've got to be brainwashed as hell.

Yep.

I want to talk a bit more about the role that no education plays in spreading terror. It's no coincidence that the real terrorist hotbed is Saudi Arabia. First, their state PROMOTES a radical form of Islam in order to ensure they maintain the respect of the radical Muslim crowd. Saudi Arabia has been doing this since their founding, when they made a compromise with the radical Muslim crowd. Second, they spend their oil wealth on either 1) blocking Iranian expansion across the Middle East, or 2) lavish hotels, fine wine, shrimp, etc. rather than infrastructure and education. So the educational void in the rich monarch states and in the broken states like Pakistan ends up filled by radical Madrassas which teach children to hate America and the West.

Now here's the interesting part. In Afghanistan, we produced many "educational" textbooks in the 80's that taught young Muslims to fight at all costs, and to hate all infidels. To hate Russians. To hate non-believers. They were designed with the express purpose of running the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. Unfortunately, with Russia gone, the textbooks stayed...and are now being used as a radicalization tool against us. Additionally, there are economic reasons for radicalization. In Saudi Arabia and Yemen young people can't get jobs. They become disillusioned and their only job training opportunities is again, through the madrassas, which quickly work to radicalize them against the state and against America.

As long as Saudi Arabia and Yemen have no employment or education for their youth the drone program is mostly ineffective because these are the underlying issues. Terrorists will keep popping up as long as the ME remains in the dark ages. And unfortunately, as long as radical Islam is promoted by Middle Eastern states, terrorism will continue to be on the rise.

I really wish we had used some of that disappearing trillions of dollars in Afghanistan and Iraq to build schools rather than fund a broken army.

Link to post

Share on other sites

Dingdongs
2,658

Dingdongs
2,658

But who did we bomb/invade instead of our good Pakistani and Saudi allies?

Sadly ironic as I said in another post...

Basically what I was trying to say to Irving is that our policymakers actually do every possible counterproductive step in the book to stop terrorism and the "hate" towards the West.

In a way all they do is create more terrorism.

Incompetence or political will? We'll know it in 50 years if we are lucky.

Our policymakers do what they have to do to address the issue in the short-medium term. If we have intelligence on where the #2 in AQ and their lead propagandist is, we are going to take him out. That might stop next month or next year's attack, but addressing the one 10 years from now, not really. Again, these policymakers do not have the ability to totally fix the issue. The issue is so much more complicated than "we need to get our troops out of the holy land". The notion that will stop extremism and hate towards the West in its tracks is laughable. Like most solutions, it requires efforts from both sides.

I want to talk a bit more about the role that no education plays in spreading terror. It's no coincidence that the real terrorist hotbed is Saudi Arabia. First, their state PROMOTES a radical form of Islam in order to ensure they maintain the respect of the radical Muslim crowd. Saudi Arabia has been doing this since their founding, when they made a compromise with the radical Muslim crowd. Second, they spend their oil wealth on either 1) blocking Iranian expansion across the Middle East, or 2) lavish hotels, fine wine, shrimp, etc. rather than infrastructure and education. So the educational void in the rich monarch states and in the broken states like Pakistan ends up filled by radical Madrassas which teach children to hate America and the West.

Now here's the interesting part. In Afghanistan, we produced many "educational" textbooks in the 80's that taught young Muslims to fight at all costs, and to hate all infidels. To hate Russians. To hate non-believers. They were designed with the express purpose of running the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. Unfortunately, with Russia gone, the textbooks stayed...and are now being used as a radicalization tool against us. Additionally, there are economic reasons for radicalization. In Saudi Arabia and Yemen young people can't get jobs. They become disillusioned and their only job training opportunities is again, through the madrassas, which quickly work to radicalize them against the state and against America.

As long as Saudi Arabia and Yemen have no employment or education for their youth the drone program is mostly ineffective because these are the underlying issues. Terrorists will keep popping up as long as the ME remains in the dark ages. And unfortunately, as long as radical Islam is promoted by Middle Eastern states, terrorism will continue to be on the rise.

Exactly, there are underlying issues and you summed them up pretty well. At least you can recognize the complete disaster/peril Islam is in the Middle East. This isn't the same Islam your buddy down the street is going to go to the local mosque to practice, and unfortunately the left in America at least makes it look like it is. They say these are just a small percentage of radicals and that they don't speak for Muslims... but then can they explain how they now control 1/3 of Iraq and Syria under that ideology? I'm so f*cking tired of hearing "Islam is a peaceful religion". Yeah, sure, but the people that practice it and dominate the conversation about Islam live in the f*cking stone age, and if we call them on that we are suddenly Islamophobes. Where are the regular Muslims in the Middle East in areas that perpetuate radical thought? They're either being raped and beheaded, they radicalize themselves, or they don't say a word about what's going on. That is the issue here. Not US torture policy and drone strikes.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Docfaustino
320

Docfaustino
320

LOL @ Fellow Doc. What's up man. I've seen you in PGC but we never talked.

At least you can recognize the complete disaster/peril Islam is in the Middle East. This isn't the same Islam your buddy down the street is going to go to the local mosque to practice, and unfortunately the left in America at least makes it look like it is.

I mean... I am a progressive, but here is where I break with their ideology. Islamic fundamentalism is both more commonplace and more worrisome than anyone on the left (but Maher) account for. Suicide bombs take lives weekly in EVERY middle eastern nation, NEARLY every North and Central African nation, and even as far as Indonesia, which is mistakenly held up by the left as an example of a peaceful Islamic majority nation. It's not, neither are the Phillipines, where ISIS operates. A huge swath of the globe. At what point do we say SOMETHING in the religion is causing people to act violently rather than blaming it all on foreign imperialism? Unfortunately, one has to consider the precedent set in the Q'uran where Muhammad had an image of a warrior, whereas Jesus never picked up a sword. One has to consider, when condemning Christianity, how Westboro Baptist Church's crimes compare to those committed daily by sharia courts. Christianity had these sorts of problems years ago but doesn't now so why don't we call a spade a spade. It's the left's job to attack bad theocratic ideas.

I do think the drone program is a mistake though. Some reforms need to be implemented. It's not really clear who is running the show and there is 0 congressional oversight, not to mention grandmas killed in Okra fields, teenage American citizens killed because of who their fathers were, and wedding convoys striked because they "were probably terrorists." It's really not ok when 60 innocents die based on assumption IMO.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Docfaustino
320

Docfaustino
320

The West is secular in the sense that our citizens don't attempt to spread Christianity a the point of a sword. Yes that is mostly due to socioeconmic reasons but you don't think the willingness of Middle Easterners to pick up the act of suicide bombing isn't at least partially because of precedents set in the Q'uran? Muhammad did attempt to justify the killing of women and children and his image is that of a conquest warrior. Juxtapose that against Jesus' image as a hippie and the difference is striking.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

sivispacem
19,024

sivispacem
19,024

The West is secular in the sense that our citizens don't attempt to spread Christianity a the point of a sword. Yes that is mostly due to socioeconmic reasons but you don't think the willingness of Middle Easterners to pick up the act of suicide bombing isn't at least partially because of precedents set in the Q'uran? Muhammad did attempt to justify the killing of women and children and his image is that of a conquest warrior. Juxtapose that against Jesus' image as a hippie and the difference is striking.

The Islamic world never underwent a period of enlightenment like the Western Christian world did. There was no period of tension between the scientific world and traditional authority which challenged the place of religion in society. Islamic nations have tended to be either authoritarian, theocratic or under the control of an imperial power, so until recently there has never been an opportunity for Islam to actually undergo a period where challenge comes from those inside society. In my opinion, that's what we're beginning to see not.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Mr. House
4,189

Mr. House
4,189

Listen what we need to recognise in the west(it is already known in the Indian subcontinent)that there is a facet of Islam that is so hostile to all other religions to such an extent that they regard us as sub-humans,either convert or die.... We need to confront and defeat these people,they don't live by the same standards as we do,and you can't pussy foot around these 'people',sorry there is no choice but violent response..however I'm not condoning mal treatment of prisoners,just saying slaughtering 11 thousand innocents in the Twin Towers was an act that was so evil that extreme tactics had to be used to find out who was behind that Inhumane act...

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Clem Fandango
4,826

Clem Fandango
4,826

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

This is the kind of thinking that led to 9/11 in the first place. The idea that an entire society- including children- are culpable for that society's ideology and the violence carried out in its name. There's not a lot of difference between an American warhawk like yourself and an Islamic terrorist. Honestly, if an observer were dropped from space they'd find them scarcely distinguishable.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Clem Fandango
4,826

Clem Fandango
4,826

The West is secular in the sense that our citizens don't attempt to spread Christianity a the point of a sword. Yes that is mostly due to socioeconmic reasons but you don't think the willingness of Middle Easterners to pick up the act of suicide bombing isn't at least partially because of precedents set in the Q'uran? Muhammad did attempt to justify the killing of women and children and his image is that of a conquest warrior. Juxtapose that against Jesus' image as a hippie and the difference is striking.

Jesus was not a hippie; have you read the bible? He killed so many people.

Islamic doctrine isn't necessarily more violent than Christian doctrine. Radical Islam is a political ideology, it has nothing to do with theology. When Buddhist monks commit horrible atrocities nobody says "well, clearly there's something up with Buddhist doctrine I mean Christians don't do this right!?"

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Docfaustino
320

Docfaustino
320

The existence of Buddhist extremism is relevant how? There is a terrorist fringe to every religion but only one of those religions is actively trying to kill all nonbelievers all over the planet. Sivis brought up a good point with the Enlightenment period that Christianity once went through. Personally, I feel Islam did go through this phase when the Ottoman Empire was making inroads in math and physics and supporting such women's rights as daughter's inheriting wealth of their loved ones while Europe was in the Dark Ages. But for [pick a reason] today, Islam is a troubled religion. The existence of the far right extremists is a factor in many countries everyday lives and the moderate Muslim populations in other countries have difficulty accepting modern principles like free speech and freedom of religion. There are polls to prove it. I feel its genuinely important to recognize that the religion itself is in a tumultuous transition period rather than sticking to the small minority logic, when in reality the support for death-for-apostasy and blasphemy laws among Muslim populations would frighten any liberal with his eyes open.

Buddhist extremism is mostly localized. Like I said, you can argue the causes, but unlike Buddhist extremism, Islamic extremism poses an active threat to North Africa, the Maghreb, Central Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, America, and just tonight, Sydney. It's not a political doctrine. It's the far right of a religion. The political doctrine of radical Islam would be Sharia in its strictest interpretation. And while a Muslim-majority government should have the right of sovereignty to institute some form of sharia, even a loose interpretation is hardly compatible with human rights. See: Qisas, apostasy.

The Saudi monarchs with all their education would repeal their ass-backwards women and driving laws if their constituency didn't actually believe in it. Again, you can argue why that is but for the moment, the big picture of religions of the world is not equal. Sometimes this happens. I recall a point in history when Christianity behaved like this but right now that's not happening. So let's call it what it is.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Dingdongs
2,658

Dingdongs
2,658

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

This is the kind of thinking that led to 9/11 in the first place. The idea that an entire society- including children- are culpable for that society's ideology and the violence carried out in its name. There's not a lot of difference between an American warhawk like yourself and an Islamic terrorist. Honestly, if an observer were dropped from space they'd find them scarcely distinguishable.

I don't care about an observer from space. I am an American, not an unbiased observer and I readily admit that. If people want to do me or my countrymen harm, they need to be taken out. That said, I never stated that they are culpable, nor did I say the whole society. I stated that whether you want to admit it or not, the "children" that are connected to known terrorists/people who harbor and act on anti-Western thought in the Middle East will be packing charges the day they come of age, blowing up hospitals and government buildings per their loving family's orders. Docfaustino is quite correct in what he is saying. You can bring up how Christianity was spread with the sword all you want. That's hundred of years ago. Right now we have millions of people under the Islamic banner upsetting the power balance, murdering and raping thousands. It needs to stop somehow. Unfortunately we in the US with our policymaking capability only have the ability to blow people up who pose a direct or indirect threat, and we will continue to do so. We can't make Islam have a reformation on our own. I do think sivis is right on the money though, and that it is at least "brewing"... because this radical bullsh*t isn't going to last. They will eventually be destroyed by the moderate/normal voices. Right now said voices are not doing enough.And that isn't America, Britain, France, China, whoever else you want to blame for it. It's on them.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Finn 7 five 11
919

Finn 7 five 11
919

@ Irviding: sorry but implying that a relative of a terrorist will probably share the same ideology of the terrorist is a bit too much.

Are we going to judge people only on loose assumptions? I hope not.

Also I understand that 9/11 caused death, pain, frustration and destruction but have you ever thought about the fact that in response to 9/11

death, pain, frustration and destruction where brought upon a lot of people in a lot of countries except in the ones from where the 19* terrorists where? Sadly ironic, isn't it?

In the end the 9/11 US victims are just as all the people that died innocently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is it too much though? Political socialization is what it is. The family, the school, and the church are the main factors in socialization. All of which in these countries with radical extremists tend to be intertwined and perpetuating the same ideologies. Again, I know what I'm saying is unpopular and even abhorrent at first read, but carefully think about it and understand why the CIA and the Pentagon operate as they do with these strikes and with operatives they capture. The allusions I made to the 13 year old suicide bombers used by these terrorists is quite relevant to the overarching picture we have here; these people start indoctrinating with terrorist ideology at a young age. The mosques they go to and the schools they attend reinforce it. This is much more than a war of military strategy and tactics - it's a war of ideology and generations of people that now hate the United States. We can talk about why they hate us, our own actions contributing to that sentiment, but that doesn't change the fact that is very clear and present.

This is the kind of thinking that led to 9/11 in the first place. The idea that an entire society- including children- are culpable for that society's ideology and the violence carried out in its name. There's not a lot of difference between an American warhawk like yourself and an Islamic terrorist. Honestly, if an observer were dropped from space they'd find them scarcely distinguishable.

Right now we have millions of people under the Islamic banner upsetting the power balance, murdering and raping thousands. It needs to stop somehow. Unfortunately we in the US with our policymaking capability only have the ability to blow people up who pose a direct or indirect threat, and we will continue to do so. We can't make Islam have a reformation on our own. I do think sivis is right on the money though, and that it is at least "brewing"... because this radical bullsh*t isn't going to last. They will eventually be destroyed by the moderate/normal voices. Right now said voices are not doing enough.And that isn't America, Britain, France, China, whoever else you want to blame for it. It's on them.

Perhaps blowing people up left right and centre causes more problems.

Maybe we need a different tactic, like funding secular education over there.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

K^2
2,034

K^2
2,034

Islamic doctrine isn't necessarily more violent than Christian doctrine. Radical Islam is a political ideology, it has nothing to do with theology. When Buddhist monks commit horrible atrocities nobody says "well, clearly there's something up with Buddhist doctrine I mean Christians don't do this right!?"

Christians are hypocrites when it comes to religion. What else is new? Doesn't mean it's not worth calling out problems with religious doctrine, any doctrine, that are being exploited by extremists to recruit naive populum. What good is the fact that religion is harmless when practiced in moderation when it's not practiced in moderation?

Certainly, the problems don't stem from Islam. Islam is just a particular brand stamped onto the doctrine. But it still means we can call out specific problems. We can talk about the fact that Islam is being used to justify xenophobia, homophobia, and misogyny. It doesn't matter if these things are inherent in Islam or not. That's how it's being used. And a lot of people buy into it.

This isn't justification to target or mistreat Muslims. But telling a particular group of Muslims that misogyny is not ok, despite what they think Koran tells them, is not Islamophobic, no matter how much they say that it is.

where the f/ck has this guy been??

this is the John McCain I would have actually voted for in 2008. sans-Palin of course.

He's always been like that. He always cut through bullsh*t, and he never compromised. That's why he didn't get the votes in 2008 and didn't get nomination in 2012. Listen to other of his speeches. Even if you disagree with what he's saying, you'll know he's saying it because he believes that it is right, and not because he thinks it will get him votes. I feel sad that I didn't have an opportunity to vote for him in 2008.

I don't know about our economy and some breakthroughs in gay rights of the past 6-7 years, but I think our foreign policy would have been in much better shape. We wouldn't be talking about tortures right now, and I'm not sure Russia would have been so bold. Obama isn't a bad president, but I think he would have been better in a quieter decade. McCain is better at sorting messes specifically because he doesn't accept bullsh*t from anybody, including himself.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Docfaustino
320

Docfaustino
320

So let's kill their children before they grow up and become terrorists?

That sounds like a great strategy indeed!

Why don't we nuke those countries and erase them from the map?

Wouldn't it be even easier?

Or sterilize all of them?

...smh

And hundreds of years ago? You can call it Christianity, or capitalism, or western "civilization", or democracy... We never stopped spreading stuff with the sword to this day.

Western colonialism and its awful consequences are still fresh and visible all over the planet.

A bit of realism and sincerity wouldn't hurt.

And suddenly we have millions of muslims murdering and raping thousands?

I guess I missed the latest news... lol

Seriously, all you say is blown out of proportions and exaggerated to high levels of paranoia. Islamophobic seems an understatement related to your last post.

For the record I don't agree with Irviding about the children thing. Nor do I support the drone program or torture.

Again past terror actions by other religions is completely irrelevant. Right now Islam on the broad spectrum is being used to justify mass human rights abuses all over the world. That is not Islamaphobic. It's recognizing the current playing field for what it is.

I will be realistic that colonialism and western imperialism had a very negative effect on the Muslim world and has done a lot to both radicalize oppressed Muslims and even create further terror...but to imply that terror can be explained away by the actions of the West and by the actions of colonists is as naiive as saying terror can be explained solely because of Islamic world today. The truth is somewhere in the middle. If terror were created solely by the actions of others why are there suicide bombers blowing people up in Kazakhstan? Somewhere like Chechnya or Gaza has obviously become radicalized because of foreign oppression from Russia and Israel respectively but that leaves the problem of the rest of the world, where people can actually explode for being "infidels". That's not Islamaphobic. And no I don't think terror should even rate on the top 5 priorities list but when we discuss it its important to look at whats happening even if its ugly.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Daz
13,567

Daz
13,567

The government will always find loopholes to get by and suit their agenda. They use these "enhanced interrogation" techniques because it leaves no evidence on the subject so they can deny it. While some techniques are effective for a certain purpose, a lot aren't. What you end up doing is allowing the person to manufacture information, and it might take a while before you find out it is false. It also is hard to tell who actually has anything of value, until you find nothing. The process of the interogation should be a carefully planned mental game that needs time to enable the person to break naturally. Rushing to get information on a short time scale and forced techniques such as water boarding are not effective enough. The whole point of intelligence gathering is gaining the information without anyone knowing you own it.

You can never really put a stop to CIA black sites, legal or not. Being detained in any sense is technically a form of torture in itself. There will always be a level of unpleasant behaviour when dealing with POW's and the like, but there needs to be some form of structure. Obviously we have no idea on the details of each individual case, but the fact is you ain't going to come up with jack sh*t if you are physically harming someone in a short amount of time to get them to tell you what you want to hear.

They do it because they can, they do it because they know they can get away with doing it. I don't think they honestly give two sh*ts about what goes on, as long as they get results and nobody knows about it. The problem is we do know about it. And as people have said it just perpetuates the cycle of military funding, wars and the balance of power. In the end it is all about control. The same old sh*t happens in many other places in the world but it doesn't fit their agenda so they don't do a full scale invasion where they aren't getting anything out of it.

The whole conversation on it is often quite futile. If it is going to change the entire government has to change, and there are a lot of people that stand in the way of allowing that to happen.