The Old Jedi Order: an institution with outdated views dooming the galaxy or organization that tried it's best but was outsmarted by the patient genius of the Sith? Whose to blame for the fall of the Order: Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Mace? How could the Jedi Council have saved Anakin from his fall? Why didn't they try harder? Why was Jar-Jar a Jedi?

Here's the place to discuss a whole torrent of questions and grips so feel free to let loose _________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:20 am

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7120Location: Sailing into the unknown

I am a fan of the Old Order simply because I have a weakness for old-fashioned things. Old books, chivalry and dial telephones all = in my eyes. It's not that I think old things are always better (althought they sometimes are), I just like them._________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

As much as I like the Old Order and think that they had good intentions, they really dropped the ball. I trace it back to Yoda. He was so afraid of losing any Jedi to the dark side that he limited the entire Order. They could have been so much more than they were._________________All things die, Anakin Skywalker, even stars burn out.

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Those without swords can still die upon them

The world is a mess and I just need to rule it.

Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:51 pm

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Mara Jade SkywalkerAdministrator

Joined: 15 Feb 2008Posts: 5799Location: Beyond Shadows

As I was saying on the last EUCast, the Old Jedi Order boxed themselves in. They limited themselves. They became exactly what they feared. By constantly fearing what they could become, they wasted their potential and basically opened the door for Palpatine to waltz right in.

Yoda warns against fear, but it was fear itself that brought down the Jedi Order. Fear of becoming emotional, fear of becoming attached, fear of fear itself. They created, as Mark said, idiot rules. As soon as one Jedi stumbled on an issue, they quickly roped off the cause. It led to the stunted nature of the Jedi Order. They could have been so much more.

Does that mean I didn't admire certain Jedi of the Old Order? To the contrary. I absolutely loved several of them. But as a whole, the Old Jedi Order was majorly flawed.

They were so afraid of emotion/attachment that they didn't even care about the citizens they passed on the street. They were so afraid of becoming Sith that they limited themselves to the point that they could not even defeat one. In this, the Old Jedi Order had become stagnant. Palpatine didn't even have to be the genius he was to defeat them. It was only a matter of time._________________
"It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." ~Mara Jade Skywalker

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:45 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6658Location: Missouri

Two three things strike me pretty deeply when I think about the Old Jedi Order.

1.) New padawans were taken from their parents and more or less trained, raised, and lived in complete isolation from their parents in order to avoid attachments.

2.) Jedi were forbidden to marry and have families. (and if forbidden is too strong of a word, it was certainly taboo)

3.) The Order treated Sith as an incurable disease that had to be exterminated without question. (though there are odd inconsistencies with this. Officially they seem to stand by this and during their council meetings they repeat this, but when they go off one-on-one they sometimes make a rare, maybe even half-hearted, attempt to bring one back to the light. Yet the made another nice exception for Anakin and treated him like the Ebola virus)_________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:19 pm

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comanderblyMaster

Joined: 29 Feb 2008Posts: 745Location: Denver

The old and new order align themselves very closely with politics. The New Order seems to be willing to break away if things get bad - for example when Jacen took over the order stepped away.

The Old Order played the role of negotiators. The missions they went onto 'negotiate' seemed to end with the Jedi in the line of fire. Qui jon said his mandate meant he could not interfere in the Naboo Trade Dispute, seems to me like he interfered plenty.

I think this is the same symptom most people are pointing out - the Old Order positioned themselves poorly and their attempts to reduce weaknesses and make the order stronger had the opposite effect. By trying to be politically neutral the Old Order became stuck.

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:45 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6658Location: Missouri

Okay, someone mentioned elsewhere a topic thought caught my interest so I'm bringing it here to keep that other topic on focus.

So, it's been stated the Old Jedi Order weren't celibate, but did avoid attachments and relationships, which would thus create/allow for carefree sex for members of the Jedi Order. Now it's not that such a thing was encouraged, only that it was allowed.

Remember, Jedi are not religious, they are not a religious order, they are simply do-gooders with a monastic styled order.

Here's something I started to think about, allowing carefree sex in my opinion, though it might server as a valve release, actually does damage because it dehumanizes and de-emotionalizes the Jedi. A lot of the stuff the Jedi do, their laws and regulations, serves to downplay emotion. They seem to think emotions are bad. When put like that, they'd probably try to reword it and point out good emotions, but it doesn't change the fact that they tend to downplay emotions and take care to say emotions are bad in this case and that case, etc.

But emotionless individuals make cruddy watch dogs. In fact, I think the whole Chose One prophecy had nothing to do with Sith and the Dark Side and everything to do with bring emotion back to the Jedi Order. Luke certainly has emotion in his order, and I think it's healthier for it.

Alright, I had my say, feel free to take this where ever you want._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:58 pm

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CerrineaMaster

Joined: 09 Jun 2009Posts: 1491

I agree with you on a lot of what you've said, Skuls.

So we know the OJO weren't perfect. In fact there's a lot of exposition about how they really assisted their own downfall. They'd become withdrawn, elitist and distanced from the galaxy they were protecting. The sex with no attachment rule is, imo, another example of where the OJO went wrong.

However, the code was refined and it became a deny emotions kind of thing which was not the original purpose of the code at all.

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:02 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6658Location: Missouri

I never realized there were different versions. Just checked Wookieepedia, here's the other version, the one the OJO used...

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)
There is no death, there is the Force.

And Luke's Order rewrote them again...

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and to protect.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:27 pm

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7120Location: Sailing into the unknown

Official Statement:
I have moral issues with casual sex, so regardless of whether the Jedi are religious or not, I consider it scummy behaviour. If the Powers That Be want the Jedi to have casual sex, fine, but I'll still be disapointed._________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:37 pm

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CerrineaMaster

Joined: 09 Jun 2009Posts: 1491

Well I checked wookie too and my version is the oldest. So I win.

I think the OJO totally missed the boat on emotions. The reality is they taught suppressing emotion. Yeah they wrapped it up in pretty Jedi philosophy: accept and then let them go...because love leads to pain, to suffering, yada yada yada.

If they'd been truly enlightened (and seriously they should have been. They'd had thousands of years to meditate on the whole emotions thing), they would have known that a Jedi should feel the highest form of attachment, which is disinterest love -- disinterest meaning no self-interest at all. Selfless love is the purest form of love.

They came close with their philosophy on compassion, but close is no cigar. Think about the difference there could have been if Obi-Wan had been able to teach Anakin that instead of leaving him to fumble his way through what amounted to a pretty selfish love for Padme.

Wow, I'm thankful that you brought this up Skuls, because if I did it I'm pretty sure I'd look a bit like a pervert!
But anyway, I don't think that, when Lucas said they're allowed casual sex I didn't think he meant it in the traditional sense. Not like they paid prostitutes to regularly come round to the Temple every so often and 'make the rounds'. Or cruising the undercity bars for some booty.
Ahsoka: Hey, Skyguy, can you be my wingman tonight at the Sunhopper Bar?
Anakin: Sure thing, Snips. But aren't you a little young?
Ahsoka: With this outfit? Us Togruta grow up fast...
*Anakin backs away slowly*

Okay, maybe that was a bad example.
Obi-Wan: Think, Anakin! She came in here to hide, not to run.
Anakin: Yes, Master.
Obi-Wan: Go and look for some booty, Anakin.
Anakin: Where are you going, Master?
Obi-Wan: For a drink.

When I first heard that it seemed more likely that, if they found they had feelings for someone, they'd be okay with sharing the night with them, but not take things any further, instead of finding a random woman._________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

And on the topic of OJO versus NJO, the OJO being emotionless beings, I have to say that I have a suspicion that Bane's descendants had a hand in this. Their goal was to subvert the Jedi, after all, and what better way to do that than to make them become a stagnant, lifeless Order that has been distanced both from the real world (of SW) and the people in it?_________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:51 am

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6658Location: Missouri

I also think it's probably likely that most or at least a good percentage of the Jedi were celibate as well. Thus the whole casual sex thing with the Jedi was simply a door that was open to them that some utilized. And Star Wars being what it is, they don't often talk about it, and the cases when it does happen they like to be vague about it. It's been hinted that Obi-Wan, for instance, had casual sex a time or two. Where as Anakin decided to defy the Order, and actually married his love. Thus, in a way, Anakin as the Chosen One was begin to spin things around back in the right direction, even though his marriage didn't turn out very well.

As for the Jedi Code and the possibility of Bane corrupting it, Odan-Urr is the Jedi who was responsible for rewriting it. Thus he predated Darth Bane. However, Odan-Urr was a Draethos and a Jedi Librarian, thus a scholar and a member of an alien species who might have a different outlook on life and a different interpretation of words and phrases. He also had a heavy hand in fighting the Dark Side, Dark Jedi, and the Sith, which might have helped shape his outlook on things, making them more black and white, as well as defensive. By altering the code, he might have intended to help prevent padawans from falling to the dark side, but by tightening that mantra, he just made the inevitable rupture worse.

Also, I have to say I found your first post up there Life hilarious _________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood