Greedy Goblin

Friday, October 30, 2015

The slide

Unless you are very new to EVE, you heard that The Mittani had a "drunken slip". You might even remember his infamous quote "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [REDACTED]. It's [spells the name]. He has his own corp. FIND HIM!" You might even have a link to a video where he does it and watched him stumbling around in a wizzard hat, drinking even in the middle of his presentation. But I bet you don't remember anything else. Too bad, because the background is often more interesting than the front:

Strange what a few filters can do with a 480p phone recording, isn't it? The slide behind him contains his mockery of the miner in text. "Since my divorce, all I want to do is die", "I am just sick and tired of sitting here alone and having to play with myself", "everyone ... just takes what you have and that's it, never to hear from them again". "I'm getting tired of everything!" Clearly the words of a depressed, suicide-considering person. Written on a pre-made, CCP approved slide. Sure, the "Find him!" part could be a drunken slip, but while sober and fully within his capacities, Alexander Gianturco prepared to publicly humiliate and mock a suicidal person in an offical event of CCP Games and this was OK-ed by someone within CCP.

This is why they didn't permaban him, despite huge media pressure: they couldn't without him dragging them down with him. I mean if he'd lose his EVE-based business, he'd be mad enough at CCP to tell everyone who still cares to listen to him that "they threw me under the bus for a stunt we planned together". And he wouldn't even have to lie. We can't know if the "find him" part was pre-planned. Maybe it was. But surely if he'd be banned, he'd claim it was, just to get back on CCP. They couldn't let it happen, so they let him float and floating he is.

I don't know which dev OK-ed this slide. I don't know who was his boss. I don't know who sat in the room when they decided to just stick together, do some lip service, let the media focus on the seemingly worse part, call it a "drunken slip" and hope that the real scandal just goes away. Because babbling nonsense while drunk is indeed less bad than sitting at the computer and thinking "what would be a good show?... ah, yes, humiliate that suicidal guy!" And they were right, it went away, until a bunch of great guys started a suicide prevention program and CCP had the shameless hypocrisy to participate. One has to wonder, is the guy who OK-ed the slide participates on the Broadcast 4 reps video?

Here is the good part: lots of changes happened since then in the CCP command structure. The corrupted higher-ups who decided to "bury it" were partially replaced. Lot of time passed, it's unlikely that the media would jump at the throat of CCP now (by doing it, they'd admit failure in their watchdog role at the event). The community is clearly supporting suicide prevention and sympathetic with those who admit honest failure, especially since they failed too: no one stopped this disgusting presentation out of the hundreds in the audience. I'm sure that CCP would only get respect if they'd now fix that systematic error and come clear of this mess:

Permanently remove this despicable, vile, evil human being (words of Ripard about Erotica1, whose actions were less bad) from EVE Online.

Fire the dev who OK-ed the slide without letter of recommendation. That man has no place in the online gaming industry.

Demote or "let go" his boss who failed to set proper standards and created an office atmosphere where someone could think such slide is a good idea.

Publicly apologize for the failure and set clear standards against any further suicide mockery.

Cancel all cooperation with and ban devs from answering the Goon site until it's renamed.

Finally: my postbox never seen so many supportive letters, my visitor count is spiking, on reddit the top comments say "Gevlon is mad, but he has a point" (never ever happened before), hell, I even see comments on the Goon site telling how disgusting they are for supporting broadcast4reps while they wear the in-game name of the worst possible example. I clearly see the support and will not stop pushing it. However upvotes and nice private mails won't make it succeed without speaking up. So go and tell your opinion about the case. Don't let Goons push it to a "Gevlon vs Mittani" thing. I'm not a source here. Nothing in this post is observed by me, I didn't upload the video, I wasn't present, I'm not even in B4R. The best move: use the Goon party-line "Gevlon is irrelevant" and keep talking about the case! You might save the life of someone who is hiding suicidal thoughts and comes ahead when he sees the community stands up to the master of the bullies.

47 comments:

This was a weird post, since you are looking at actions taken 3 1/2 years ago and demanding things that CCP can't do. Let's look at your demands.

1. Mittens was banned for 30 days (I know, he regularly stays logged off for that long) and kicked from CSM 7 (although maybe he technically resigned).2. CCP can't do this, because they already let CCP Xhagen go in June 2014.3. CCP can't do this, because CCP Navigator left CCP for Riot at the end of 2013.4. CCP came down hard on harrassment in March 2014, with the alleged permanent ban of Erotica 1. I personally don't believe Erotica 1 received a permanent ban and CCP never stated they issued one. There have also been a few other cases since then. As for the "clear standards against any further suicide mockery", here is an excerpt from CCP Falcon's post in March 2014.

"For the last few weeks the community has been debating the topic of real life harassment, and its connection to the EVE Universe. The EVE Universe Community Team has been working on this issue for some time now, and has had extensive discussions about it with your elected representatives, the Council of Stellar Management.

EVE is a virtual world whose inhabitants have more freedom to play the villain and experiment with various backhanded tactics than in any other MMO. The freedom to scam and commit piracy, espionage, and extortion are all fundamental to the EVE Online experience, and CCP will never change that. However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world.

"While the content of online interactions between players cannot realistically be gated within our game worlds, CCP strongly disapproves of clear and extraordinary levels of real life harassment against our players in the outside world.

"CCP, in collaboration with the CSM, have agreed and would like to state in the strongest possible terms and in accordance with our existing Terms of Service and End User License Agreement, that real life harassment is morally reprehensible, and verifiable examples of such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.

"Harassment poses a potential problem in any virtual world, and CCP has dealt with cases of this nature for more than a decade. We will continue to monitor and evaluate claims of harassment based on our policies and acceptable standards of behavior."

So, in retrospect, The Mittani was punished, but not as harshly as you wished. The person responsible for reviewing The Mittani's presentation was already let go, although for different reasons. That person's boss left the company almost 2 years ago, so is untouchable. And CCP's new Community Manager has come out and taken a harder line on harassment than under the previous regime.

Given this history, why shouldn't I or any other onlooker assume you are not just trying to use the subject of suicide prevention to advance an agenda?

If they were removed/left, that's great, however how could I know that without inside information? Is there a public listing of key crew somewhere? Also, I do think that they deserve to be named (even just leaked) for their behavior. Also, CCP as a company didn't take responsibility for the incident and indeed threw Mittani under a ... toy bus.

The Mittani wasn't punished properly and his case should be revisited. Erotica 1 was banned years after the first bonus room. The consensus opinion is that he was permabanned. The objective truth has little relevance since this alleged permaban serves as a deterrent for later performers. Minerbumping reported a long list of banned CODE members, who indeed stopped operating at once and we can conclude that bonus room and such are gone and done.

"CCP's new Community Manager has come out and taken a harder line on harassment than under the previous regime." Let me laugh: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f3p9m/gevlon_has_spoken_moa_better_than_blncpl_fighting/ctle0xmhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f3p9m/gevlon_has_spoken_moa_better_than_blncpl_fighting/ctuob6thttps://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3lf5id/gevlon_answers_directly_to_his_callout_on_reve/cv60lu3https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3lf5id/gevlon_answers_directly_to_his_callout_on_reve/cv820ahCCP Falcon repeatedly and continuously harassing me, calls me madman, crazy, lunatic, conspiracy theorist (show me a post where I assumed conspiracy: secret cooperation of formally non-allied people), "only good for a laugh". While these are indeed lighter than what The Wis got on Fanfest, but kind of questions his integrity on anti-harassment.

You might missed #5.

"why shouldn't I or any other onlooker assume you are not just trying to use the subject of suicide prevention to advance an agenda?" There is no need to assume, I DO have an agenda. But does it invalidate anything I say? Just because a lawyer wants money and fame by freeing a wrongly convicted, is his cause not true?

1. His punishment was inconsequential, as you half-way admit. From a moral point of view it was arguably worse than if CCP had done nothing at all. It's one thing to dig in your heels and say that it's not the company's job to police its players' interactions, even when the call to abuse is sounded on CCP's own stage. It's quite another to recognise a problem, admit a measure of responsibility and then issue such a feeble tariff on cyberbullying.

2-4. Is CCP Salmon (VP:CRM) still around? Back then, he did imply somewhat disingenuously that CCP weren't aware of the thrust of Mittens's comments because they happened in the 'unscripted Q&A session' beyond the scope of reviewed PowerPoints and so on. Yet, there's the slide in all its glory.

I do agree with you that it's almost certain that nothing will be done by CCP in relation to events over three years ago. Doesn't mean that nothing ought to be done, though.

"Mittens was banned for 30 days (I know, he regularly stays logged off for that long)"

In Germany you can get a punishment for driving too fast. It can be something between money, driving disqualification up to some mental tests. Some in combination, of course.The driving disqualification can be a month up to forever.Let's assume, I was driving too fast and get cought. My punishment is one month of driving disqualification. Is it really a punishment, if every now and then I don't drive for a month anyway? In this case it's not even an inconvenience...

heh... just to continue your theme from this: "...I DO have an agenda. But does it invalidate anything I say? Just because a lawyer wants money and fame by freeing a wrongly convicted, is his cause not true?"

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.Just because you are paranoid does not mean people are not out to get you. Even a wise man can learn from a fool.

In other words: ad hominem attacks are still invalid in debate. What matters are the merits of the argument itself.

I dont think this marketing campaign is without CCP's knowledge. The Mittani is advertising their game in one of the biggest magazines. Really good move, must have cost a ton of money.Do you think CCP is gonna rid of a person, who can market their game on the highest level?

B4R is initiated by EVE players. Which is good.CCP as the host of EVE claims to support B4R. Which is good.But there is clearly a mismatch between supporting B4R and at the same time accepting The Mittani letting participate in EVE.One can not ignore the "slip", because it's directly connected to B4R by it's topic. One of the most influential EVE players was allowed to call for a coursing to one specific player, who claimed to have some RL problems. What message do you think does it send to people in the need for help? Do you expect a player to open his heart, when he can potentially be harassed with nearly no consequences for the cyber-bully? Couldn't such an influential EVE player have easily helped the person instead of being such an a*hole?

And CCP has shown, that they don't want such behavior in general by perma-banning Erotica 1 (which was the right decision in my opinion). But the "slip" (call for a coursing) was even worse: At least it was negligently, but my impression is, it was intentionally.And the punishment was: "Take some vacation, and when you're back, everything is fine.". If I was in need for help, I would never ask for it in EVE...

@Noizy"I personally don't believe Erotica 1 received a permanent ban and CCP never stated they issued one."They did, I've spoken to him about it. He had been banned before for other things and had quite a few cases from the bonus room outside of sohkar as it had been going on for a while, so they slapped him with a permanent ban.

They wont ban Mittani, it's too long past, he had no prior history of harassment, and he turned himself in by making his apology (he wasn't reported by [redacted]). CCP won't be going back and revisiting all of that now. You're really grasping at straws with this one Gevlon.

No, I wouldn't refuse the help because of one guy.I would refuse it, because a) I can't be sure, if anything I told in my search for help, is really private and b) potential bullies don't have to fear consequences, obviously.Or should I expect a no-name-bully to be punished, while well-known players get away? That's also not the best approach to deal with such behavior.

Who says, that a person willing to bully someone, can not participate in B4R as a "helper"?There is no guarantees at all, but if a bully fears to be insta-perma-banned, he would possibly think twice. Otherwise he sits there, is having a drink and a laugh, while the person looking for help not only gets no help but possibly more problems.

The problem is the message sent by CCP in the Mittani-case.I also don't expect any change in that old decision, but it COULD (and I think SHOULD) be done to set a new statement and underline the B4R intentions.

To make it clear: I think, B4R is good by its intention. If anyone gets help there, the whole thing is a success.

You're catching a lot of flak for this, but you are absolutely right. Don't let up, even with all of these minions flapping around. How people can choose to willingly defend Mittens is a mystery to me. Don't they realize they are just a paycheck to him?

in short yes they should get rid of him,he is doing as much harm as he is good and that's best case scenario

worst case scenario he is giving the entire game a bad name and reputation,just look whats happening to broadcast4reps mostly because of mittanis actions and ccp-s lack of corrective action ( removing him from the game )

> No sane man ever would recommend asking for help on reddit. The internet is not a safe place for the mentally unstable (and we aren't talking about moron here).As much as I support this. there are very successful AA programs started back in the in BBS time (80s) till now, and not only AA but all kinds of stuff. People can and do seek out dedicated forums where they can get help. people there will streamline communication with professionals etc. Yes Reddid, EVE or 4chan are very much the wrong place and any post that remotely looks written by a depressed person is most likely a troll.

> We all did stupid things when we were young. It was a little teenager ...That man is a full grown piece of human male! You can't blame hormonal imbalance of puberty on him! no way! You could say 'We all did stupid things under influence of alcohol.' And as Americans have a way to high minimum drinking age of 21 you might have a point there. But then the 'it was a little whatever' part still falls flat!That guy is around his 30s based on his linkedin profile https://www.linkedin.com/pub/alexander-gianturco/61/942/b00

Yea Mitten is one of these mysterious and shiny figures of Eve, the base of rumors and stories that make their way out of the "Eve Universe". Like the big battles of Asakai or BR-5, or the fall of BoB in 2008.

And yes without these I think a lot of people won't be pulled into the game. And yes again, there are few or none like Mitten who understand to play this game on meta level, again one of these sources that inspire people to come to eve. Where else in the world of games can you control an empire of 20.000 other people.

But I also have to say, that this on stage performance was not a "slip" any more, may be the alcohol pushed him a bit more. Never the less, the presentation was made without alcohol. It was made to bully a single player, who was mentaly unstable.

"in short yes they should get rid of him,he is doing as much harm as he is good and that's best case scenario"How is he "doing" as much harm as good. Please link me to the recent harm he has caused.

He once did something bad, that's all. We'll see when you mess up once, upset someone and get permabanned if you still think that's fair punishment. Gen Eve has already directly insulted me, so he should be gone too.

"People make mistakes. I dare a person to not look through their past - especially in your teens and young 20's - and not find one "huge mistake" that you desperately wish you could go back in time and erase.I am not here to judge what a person did in their past. I, along with our fellow capsuleers, am here to offer a shoulder for those that need a friend and to help them realize the future is not a dark path that needs to be taken alone."

I am however, pleased to see that Gevlon has had a change of heart regarding his view of people who are less well off than him. Changing long held views about people being in a situation because they are too lazy or stupid takes a lot of balls.

I've been watching this now for a few days, not really wanting to comment because I don't believe it emanates from a place of deep-rooted care for any of the subject matter beyond furthering a private grudge. However, let me toss this in here:

You're approaching this entire issue without what seems to be a grain of historical context. When the original incident happened, CCP, the player community and even the Mittani were in a much different place. The mindsets of all parties were just different at that time in terms of tolerating a good many things that the mainstream would find distasteful at best, and reprehensible at worst. However, historical context needs to be taken into account because trying to apply today's standards to an event that took place in 2012 is somewhat unreasonable.

The fact is that all parties have evolved since that time. CCP's view has evolved and their policies changed to reflect the fact that issues like this can't be tolerated. The player base is also less tolerant than they once were, and I would venture to guess that even the Mittani is unlikely to take the same approach today. But it just wasn't that world in 2012, not as far as EVE was concerned. I'm happy to see that CCP and the players are taking issues like this more seriously today, but I think it’s a bit of an overreach to encourage retroactive enforcement of today's standards upon a player for actions taken in 2012 or for CCP to come out and fall on some proverbial sword in admitting some past culpability in how the entire situation was handled.

Historical context matters. The fact is that CCP and the players were in the early stages of coming to grips with where issues like this crossed the line. By my recollection, this incident was the early-stage catalyst for a change in mindset that ultimately led to the handling of the Erotica1 incident and the change in CCP's policies towards harassment. CCP has evolved, we have evolved, and because of that the game and the community are better off. The company nor its employees need to express guilt in order to do the right thing today by openly supporting the idea behind B4R. We live, we learn, we evolve and hopefully we get better. I think both the company and the community are trying to do just that.

You sure didn't seem to care what the Mittani said when you tried applying to Goonwaffe and got rejected. Don't even try telling us that you didn't know then, it was widespread news. Why do you care now all of a sudden?

@Dirk MacGirk: when I was a kid, student-teacher sex was considered something naughty but consensual. No one interpreted it as "student is being abused by the teacher". Yet, when one of those students come forward, the old ex-teacher goes to jail. We judge old crap by today standards. I'm not saying it's fully right. I'm not saying you doesn't have a point. It's just not how the world works. Call it hypocrisy as it is based on everyone claiming that they ALWAYS knew what's right and wrong, while in reality they didn't.

The fact that CCP let this happen and the lack of real consequences only reinforce the view that this company suffers from a complete absence of professionalism. Then again, they let their employees trash talk customers in a public forum without at least reprimanding the employee in question.

The other part of this is the Eve community itself. Eve players like to think of themselves as more mature than player of other well known MMO or MOBA games. Quite frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. Any mature community of players would ostracise the person responsible for this kind of bullying. The same goes for other undesirables like Erotica1 whose actions were still defended by a large number of players. It further extends to organised large scale griefing (aka "harvesting tears") which is not only seen as acceptable but encouraged by a large number of players.

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Game worlds like societies in the real world only work as long as the share of rogue individual is small and kept in check by the larger group. If you get to the point where rogue elements make up the majority of the population, you have a failed state that everyone else flees from (e.g. Syria, Afghanistan). CCP wonders about the lack of newbie retention. Well, here is (part) of the answer. At the end of the day, Eve is a game, an entertainment product. Who enjoys spending their spare time in a virtual Middle East? I'd rather play Dota with a bunch of angry Russians or do WoW PUGs all day.

What are you, like five? "Oh, boo hoo I didn't get into the cool spaceship guild, and now I hate them forever, and any perceived favoritism towards them or their leader, (who I now consider evil incarnate, even tho I desperately wanted to be in his cool spaceship guild) means that they are secretly in cahoots with him and in his thrall, and he's a big meanie and he should be banned for life for something he drunkenly did more than three years ago, even tho CCP already handed out their punishment, and...and reasons!"

Yes, what Mittani, did THREE YEARS ago was reprehensible. He has apologized, CCP has handed out its punishment (even tho you don't like it particularly) it's over. Dredging up past misdeeds to score internet points (and page views, to make you feel like there is a silent majority that agree with you) in your petty little spacemad vendetta, is simply childish. In your view no one can grow and change, to realize that thing I did was wrong, and I shouldn't have done that, apologize and move on to be a better person. You still seem to be stuck in that toddler mentality of "They have affronted me, therefore they are the epitome of evil forever more in my eyes, and anyone who had in the past associated, or now associates with them is also evil by default."

B4L is a good thing and helps people. What you are doing is NOT HELPING, people. Telling people to avoid people who may help, because a company that promotes seeking that service to help, didn't do what YOU THOUGHT ought to happen, is what amounts to toddler spite. Grow up and try to be a better man than this.

Gevlon, the reason those cases are acted on years later is because either the instance was reported years later or because the offender never faced justice. The Mittani received his punishment & the issue is considered sorted. Stop trying to use an important real life issue to push your silly in-game agenda.

Why should we be worried for our "master". Like everyone is telling you, it is 3 years since the incident and no one cares anymore. CCP will not ban Mittani again, and even if they do nothing will change. He will still lead the Imperium and some other account will take over the leadership of GSF. Because no one cares anymore. "Grr goons" is a thing of the past. You are coming over as a madman because you rally against B4R because of your agenda.

Your post about how to get a new strong force into EVE had so many good points and now you are back to this.

(You don't have to approve this post, the content is meant for you mainly)

Gevlon said...@Anon: why are you so mad? Are you worried for your master? Why are you writing a paragraph here?

I'm mad at someone who is actively telling people to avoid a service that can help people with depression and suicidal thoughts. I'm a highsec industrialist you twit, just because I don't happen to lick your boot, doesn't mean the Mittani is my 'Master', which again shows that you have the emotional and intellectual reasoning of a toddler.(not with me, you must be with the evil one) What you are saying is actively hurting people who might benefit from what B4R can do to help someone in need. Since you brought it up in this fashion I should petition CCP to ban you for life, since you have the potential to harm many more people in the real world with your vitriol, and your yes men pitchforks and torches brigade followers. Telling people who need real world help to "avoid 'those people' because they associate with people I don't like." Grow the fuck up.

Im pretty new to the game - been playing less than 6 months. I had heard of this drunken slip by teh Mittiani. When you google EVE, when you are first starting to play, it is impossible not to run across his name and then, eventually, this event.

This is the first time I have every seen these photos and for the first time I understand the whole context of the event. WTF - this was not some drunken side comment. This was a presentation that was vetted by CCP and powerpointed!!! No wonder he got such a light punishment - CCP was just as complicit.

I suppose one could ask: is CCP afraid of Mitten's influence and fear losing his minions should he be perma banned?

If they are, then that is very unhealthy for both CCP, Mitten's minions, and EVE Online. CCP would be best off to hire Mittens for publicity because the old saw: "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" would be applicable. Mittens conduct would fall under strict rules.

But that would not be good overall methinks.

So lets say CCP does perma ban him, will Mitten's minions all leave as well? A large number of people will leave. A good number will come back to EVE. CCP just needs to, in their own words: HTFU and cut this cancer out.

Stop before you encourage someone to kill themselves instead of seeking help because it only takes 1 person to listen to your drivel about how they shouldn't use B4R because they might be bullied that really needs help and that person will end up dead.

Are you so shallow that you would commit what is effectively manslaughter?

@Anon: if you are not worried that I succeed, why are you posting? It makes no sense.

@Distracted: why do you care if I make myself a fool?

@Next anon: I'm not telling people who need real world help to "avoid 'those people' because they associate with people I don't like." I'm telling them to avoid B4R because their channels are not safe from bullies. Can you guarantee that none of the "helpers" is a Goon looking for targets?

@S Riojas: the problem is more complicated than that, you should read up about the Somer incident. I'll also write a post on this.

@Last anon: it only takes 1 person who asks help on an EVE channel and find himself on the next Goon Alliance panel to kill himself. You have to face it: while B4R is a nice idea, it's ill-conceived and not feasible.

I have been reading this article and the previous one, especially being interested in comments. My conclusion is that you Gevlon are lost. You have a grudge against CCP and Mittani, and this is obvious. You have a desire to be recognized by them as someone important and they don't. Therefore you find every opportunity to criticize any of them, and it is the best if you can do it against both at once.This event gave you this opportunity, of course you grabbed it and surprisingly a lot of people got together with you.One question, if CCP is so bad why don't you just quit playing their game? But this would be easy, right? You have to take every opportunity to unleash your hate, even if this is means going after a good initiative. No one is only good or evil, not even criminals, not even you, because I know you can feel the hate in you when you write some of your words. It comes out of every phrase of yours! Do you want to know why you are treated with disregard? Because you don't have any clue about most things you write, and, apart from numbers and charts, you don't seem to know anything. Either you do, and manipulate your readers...Let me ask you something. How come the poor line-member of even poorer MOA, that cannot make enough ISK to afford flying anything else then cormorants, buys for himself a titan? Story must be different here, right?Like MOA, you have a huge desire to be acknowledged as relevant, like dogs barking when the bear passes by. Only the bear doesn't mind them.I think you are actually trying to spoil everything because of your grudge

@Anonymous:I have been reading this comment and the previous one, especially being interested in comments. My conclusion is that you Anonymous are lost. You have a grudge against me, and this is obvious. You have a desire to be recognized by me as someone important and I don't. Therefore you find every opportunity to criticize me, and it is the best if you can do it against me.This event gave you this opportunity, of course you grabbed it and surprisingly a lot of people got together with you.One question, if I am is so bad why don't you just stop reading my blog? But this would be easy, right? You have to take every opportunity to unleash your hate, even if this is means going after a good initiative. No one is only good or evil, not even criminals, not even you, because I know you can feel the hate in you when you write some of your words. It comes out of every phrase of yours! Do you want to know why you are treated with disregard? Because you don't have any clue about most things you write, and, apart from ranting, you don't seem to know anything. Either you do, and manipulate your readers...Like Lucas Kell, you have a huge desire to be acknowledged as relevant, like dogs barking when the bear passes by. Only the bear doesn't mind them.I think you are actually trying to spoil everything because of your grudge

If Goons don't need The Mittani to be in the EVE client to lead their actions, why even bother to not perma-ban him?

If every idiot/ criminal can and will change ("It was over 3 years ago! He's a whole new person now."), then why there is perma-ban at all?

Additionally:An apology is something, one should ask for. Ideally the victim of one's misbehavior.Of course, one can say he's sorry. But it doesn't necessarily to be accepted by the insulted person.And sometimes people only apologize, because they need to (external pressure) and not because they are really sorry. Or they are more sorry for themself for having to face the consequences, than for their deeds and their victim.

Also, in Germany we have a saying: "Betrunkene und Kinder sagen die Wahrheit." It means "drunken and children tell the truth".Not because they're the ultimate source of truth and knowledge. They simply have lost the self-control to lie in your face or don't know yet how to do it.

"Of course, one can say he's sorry. But it doesn't necessarily to be accepted by the insulted person.And sometimes people only apologize, because they need to (external pressure) and not because they are really sorry. "

Have you actually read about the aftermath?

There are way too many people concern trolling here.

It would be completely awesome if any of the people involved (that would be B4R and the guy Mittens mentioned) were calling for this.

@Esteban: CCP Salmon, one of the founders of CCP, left CCP in May or June of 2014. He is now the CEO of ATMO Select ehf. based in Reykjavik.

While we are talking about CCP employees that were involved in this mess, I'll bring up David Reid, the Chief Marketing Officer at the time. He arrived at CCP in January 2012 and left when the San Francisco office closed in August 2014. He possibly would have been involved in any decision that reflected on the PR front as well.

The Executive Producer of EVE Online at the time was Jon Lander (CCP Unifex), who left the position in April 2013 and then left CCP totally in April 2014.

I don't know who the senior producer was at the time, but CCP Seagull did not accept that job until January 2013. Before that she was working on the CARBON technology.

Heck, let's throw in the lead game designer at the time, CCP Soundwave. He left for Riot Games in September 2013.

The point is, everyone that was tangentially involved in leadership at that time except for Hilmar is gone, so demanding personnel changes is kind of pointless.

I'll say it again in fewer words. The issue was handled at the time based on its significance at the time (early 2012). Cyber-bullying was not as big of an issue in the mainstream then as it is today, let alone within EVE. That has changed, EVE has changed, CCP has changed. But here we are today and the literal only thing this entire conversation is doing is detracting from attention to the idea behind B4R. So basically, the entire effort is a focus on the past at the complete disregard for the present. The present is a much better place.

Everywhere in the world I have ever been, other than America, has a saying or something similar to it: If you want to meet the real man, take him out drinking. Which is kind of funny, I am an American, in the military and I have more friends outside the country, who I speak to daily, than I do in America. When I go to these other countries, I am frequently told I am lying about being American, because they expect me to act like Mittens in that video when I am out drinking.

@Gevlon "the problem is more complicated than that, you should read up about the Somer incident. I'll also write a post on this."

I followed the SOMER incident quite closely. Things are always more complicated than they appear on the surface and on the surface, it appears that SOMER was bushwacked while TMC.com and other gambling sites that received money for cross advertising and PLEX linking were not touched and still operate today (Amazon gives you a little fee if you link items for sale on your site to them and have the account set up right in Amazon). So for SOMER to be standing out as an RMTer some solid evidence of "you give me $$$ and then you can have this shiny multi-billion ISK item you can resell" had to have been found.