I would prefer game loot worked like this...

This week I thought it would be cool to go around and kill a variety of high end monsters to see what kind of loot they drop. Some of what I was killing is stuff I used to farm all the time and get good drops. The drops were clearly nerfed to the point that they drop tons of trash and gold.

I think it's bad game design to reward players with trash for killing monsters. I have 2 ideas of better loot systems. I'll be concise because no one wants to read 3 pages of post

System 1 would involve making all monsters in UO drop a lot less items, but when they drop items, the items are worth looking at.

System 2 would involve awarding players with points for killing a monster. The type of points a player gets would be based on the class of monster they killed. Higher class monsters would reward points that can be used to buy or build considerably better items.

Either way, something needs to be done. approximately 99% or more of monster item drops are completely irrelevant.

Either way, something needs to be done. approximately 99% or more of monster item drops are completely irrelevant.

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I agree that something should be done, trying to loot a peerless corpse after it has gone public looting is quite an exercise in futility.

A big part of the problem is the way the item properties have been set up, along with how long the current system has been in place. With many item properties having an upper cap (100% lower reagent cost, or 70 for each resist), once you have items that fulfill those properties there isn't much left to look for that will improve your suit. And since most people have been slowly improving their suits for years, they are at the point where only a perfect piece of armor is "useful" to them anymore and everything else is junk.

But that being said, one man's trash is another man's treasure, so trying to suggest what stays and what goes could pose a problem. What I would suggest is a item filter built into the client so that each person could decide how good their loot would have to be for the game to show it to them.

A simple filter could be made based on the number of item properties (1 to 5) and the value of the property intensities (on a scale from 1 to 100). One such high-level filter would be:
If two intensities are each 100, show the item,
If three intensities are each >90, show the item,
If four intensities are each >75, show the item,
If five intensities are each >60, show the item,
Otherwise, hide the item.

The hidden items would still exist on the corpse, and other people could loot them according to their filters when looting rights went public. There would still be some interactivity with looting, as you have to make sure that if an item is shown that it has the properties you desire. But at least in this system you know that if an item appears, it is potentially useful to you.

Stratics Veteran

System 1 would involve making all monsters in UO drop a lot less items, but when they drop items, the items are worth looking at.

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I have been a proponent of this particular system for many years. Some of the event bosses that they've been coming out with lately are so powerful that the sheer amount of loot that they drop entirely precludes the ability to even look at all of the loot before the corpse decays.

A short proposal for the change of the loot system:

Loot intensity on monsters has a ceiling based on the power of the monster.
- Example: A mongbat can drop loot of, say, 1-10% intensity, while a paragon balron can drop loot of, say, 1-100% intensity.
They need to do the same thing they did to runics: introduce floors for intensities.
- Example: A mongbat could drop loot of, say, 1-10% intensity, while a paragon balron could drop loot of, say, 90-100% intensity.

The amount of loot is a purely linear function dependent upon the strength of the monster.
- Example: A mongbat can drop, say, 0-1 item, while a paragon balron can drop, say, 30-40 items.
They need to either just tone down the slope of the function, or tone down the function and base most of it off of the loot intensity.
- Example: A mongbat could drop, say, 0-1 item, while a paragon balron could drop, say, 5-7 items.
OR (In my opinion, and in terms of balance, a better system):
- Example: A mongbat could drop, say, 0-1 item of 1-10% intensity, while a paragon balron could drop, say, 0-3 items of 90-100% intensity.

Then you could make Luck work to increase the chances that a monster drops >0 items. You could have the base percentage chance to drop 0 items be, say, 50%. Or 75%. Whatever results in the best level of balance. You can keep the logarithmic function of Luck, and then map it over whatever interval of percentages is the most balanced. The Luck equations work out so that, I believe, 3928.x Luck gets you 100%. You could make that 100% be 100% chance to drop at least 1 item. Or, if that would involve an influx of hyper-powerful items, make that 100% take a 25% chance to drop >0 items and make it a 50% chance to drop >0 items.

All of the actual numbers in the preceding proposal are obviously entirely for example purposes and would need to be severely tweaked before being put into practice.

There's no need to look through the mess and you can have a chance to make something you want, (mods will depend on your RL luck during the crafting process ) It gives crafter something to make and it gives player some options of what they want.

I like example 2. I had a similar idea that players could accumulate points per every death of a creature. Every creature drops less items and you may still be able to get something good, but you will always receive points. Then in your options menu is a Tier reward section with the total accumulate points you've gathered, and a list of items you can claim as a reward. As a risk vs reward, everytime your character dies you will lose a % value or item value of points you've accumulated based on the toughness of the creature you're fighting (like the karma/fame system).

Stratics Veteran

I agree, to a certain degree.
High-end monsters should drop much less, but if they drop anything, it should be at least medium quality.

However, low-end monsters (like Ettins, Trolls, Liches etc.) sometimes drop useful stuff for low-end players. Like self-repairing armor with decent physical resist, weapons with certain useful properties, reagents etc. Of course, items like "a ring" with no features whatsoever are void and should be left out.

Stratics Veteran

System 1 would involve making all monsters in UO drop a lot less items, but when they drop items, the items are worth looking at.

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"worth looking at" is an impossible moving target. No matter what a creature drops, after 99 kills, there's a 99% chance that what it drops next isn't as good as what you've already found. No matter what your threshold, eventually you will find loot isn't high enough. Logically, the only ways to make monster loot remain equally worthwhile would be to make items wear out faster, have continuous inflation in item power or supply an infinite number of newbie buyers.

In addition, you already have the artifact drop system and the reagent drop system to give you those easy-to-gather high end.

System 2 would involve awarding players with points for killing a monster.

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This is already implemented. The points are called gold and the turnins happen in Luna.

Searching through "junk" for those good finds is an essential part of the game, but I feel that in the end monster loot should consist of recyclables and reagents - you should not find the highest-end items from monster loot in the first place, they should be coming from crafters.

I agree that something should be done, trying to loot a peerless corpse after it has gone public looting is quite an exercise in futility.

A big part of the problem is the way the item properties have been set up, along with how long the current system has been in place. With many item properties having an upper cap (100% lower reagent cost, or 70 for each resist), once you have items that fulfill those properties there isn't much left to look for that will improve your suit. And since most people have been slowly improving their suits for years, they are at the point where only a perfect piece of armor is "useful" to them anymore and everything else is junk.

But that being said, one man's trash is another man's treasure, so trying to suggest what stays and what goes could pose a problem. What I would suggest is a item filter built into the client so that each person could decide how good their loot would have to be for the game to show it to them.

A simple filter could be made based on the number of item properties (1 to 5) and the value of the property intensities (on a scale from 1 to 100). One such high-level filter would be:
If two intensities are each 100, show the item,
If three intensities are each >90, show the item,
If four intensities are each >75, show the item,
If five intensities are each >60, show the item,
Otherwise, hide the item.

The hidden items would still exist on the corpse, and other people could loot them according to their filters when looting rights went public. There would still be some interactivity with looting, as you have to make sure that if an item is shown that it has the properties you desire. But at least in this system you know that if an item appears, it is potentially useful to you.

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I would be glad if they would just get rid of the pieces that are REALLY bad. A +3 str bracelet in a level 6 chest?? Basic common sense says that anyone who can do a level 6, isn't likely going to need a +3 str bracelet. I don't care if there are fewer pieces, just make minimums on the different levels.
May have to go dig a level 6, and chart the stuff I get and see what exactly is there that is worth keeping.

Stratics VeteranAlumni

So long as there's replacement of the items with stronger versions without what you had before going way, you can only move constantly upwards till you hit a point where you can't any further. Because of this, you all start viewing the loot as "crap".

All they can do is either keep upping the strength of drops until the system caps out and people stop caring, or start making it so that people might need the lower end stuff again somehow. Removing insurance and restoring breakability to how it was (including the massive attacks of some monsters and weapons, as well as some sort of repair limits) would be the best way to start.

"But this is an item based game now and they can't do that!!!1!1!" you say? What you don't seem to realize is there's an infinite supply of replacements to anything you might lose. Sure it isn't all uber-powerful, but you start at the bottom and work your way back up slowly. It's not like it would be happening often enough to the average player to make it overbearingly annoying.

I don't like the idea of all high end items coming from crafters for several reasons.
1. The high end crafting rewards (runic tools) tend to get duped
2. The current high-end reward system isn't very interactive... It's just mass repetition, which encourages scripting.
3. Having the only relevant loot come from crafters means that there's no reason to kill monsters aside from the gold they drop. That's not a very good design for an adventure-based game.

I like how the current loot system makes it extremely rare for your perfect item to drop or be crafted, because it creates goals for people. The fault of the current loot system is that it creates runaway item inflation to the point where most monster loot is irrelevant.

A long time ago I proposed a slot-based enhancement system that allowed players to add/remove mods from base items. The system was very crafter-oriented AND very adventure oriented.

In a nutshell, the system is a cross between enchanting in WoW and UO's item crafting systems. A new skill would be added to UO that would allow players to create a mod resource from a random mod on a selected, item. Pulling a mod from an item consumes the item, so item loot becomes a raw material for this mod-removal skill.

Here's where crafters come in. Crafters gain the ability to make base items with 5 mod sockets that can be filled with any mod resource that type of item can spawn with.

Now... if the system just stopped there, it would destroy itemization in UO. Mod items need to be consumed in order for the system to be maintainable. My solution for that is to have applied mods lose some of their intensity every 20 repairs or so. So basically, players will be able to build 5x max mod items, but those items won't stay max mod.

This system would revolutionize the way the UO economy works and the system can function perfectly alongside the current UO itemization system.

Here are the benefits as I see them:
crafting would become more interactive
Treasure hunting loot would become relevant
runic-crafted "throw aways" would become useable
There would be a reason to look at item loot on mid-high range monsters
The system revitalizes the adventure-based side of UO

Even so, I think the quantity of item drops per monster needs to decrease and the quality of item drops needs to increase.

PS
I got a lot of positive feedback when I posted this idea on ideas den over a year ago. The only change I made was instead of making the mod items cursed, I made the mods on them lose potency over time.

Stratics VeteranStratics LegendCampaign Supporter

I don't like the idea of all high end items coming from crafters for several reasons.
1. The high end crafting rewards (runic tools) tend to get duped
2. The current high-end reward system isn't very interactive... It's just mass repetition, which encourages scripting.
3. Having the only relevant loot come from crafters means that there's no reason to kill monsters aside from the gold they drop. That's not a very good design for an adventure-based game.

I like how the current loot system makes it extremely rare for your perfect item to drop or be crafted, because it creates goals for people. The fault of the current loot system is that it creates runaway item inflation to the point where most monster loot is irrelevant.

A long time ago I proposed a slot-based enhancement system that allowed players to add/remove mods from base items. The system was very crafter-oriented AND very adventure oriented.

In a nutshell, the system is a cross between enchanting in WoW and UO's item crafting systems. A new skill would be added to UO that would allow players to create a mod resource from a random mod on a selected, item. Pulling a mod from an item consumes the item, so item loot becomes a raw material for this mod-removal skill.

Here's where crafters come in. Crafters gain the ability to make base items with 5 mod sockets that can be filled with any mod resource that type of item can spawn with.

Now... if the system just stopped there, it would destroy itemization in UO. Mod items need to be consumed in order for the system to be maintainable. My solution for that is to have applied mods lose some of their intensity every 20 repairs or so. So basically, players will be able to build 5x max mod items, but those items won't stay max mod.

This system would revolutionize the way the UO economy works and the system can function perfectly alongside the current UO itemization system.

Here are the benefits as I see them:
crafting would become more interactive
Treasure hunting loot would become relevant
runic-crafted "throw aways" would become useable
There would be a reason to look at item loot on mid-high range monsters
The system revitalizes the adventure-based side of UO

Even so, I think the quantity of item drops per monster needs to decrease and the quality of item drops needs to increase.

PS
I got a lot of positive feedback when I posted this idea on ideas den over a year ago. The only change I made was instead of making the mod items cursed, I made the mods on them lose potency over time.

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This is a really interesting idea. I would go one step further and remove item insurance at the same time, but even if this weren't done, this system would improve the overall quality of items on Siege and make it much easier to balance content for Siege without having to create completely different code. It would also have the effect of making pets in pvp less of an issue on Siege because overall the quality of suits on the shard would improve.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Remove Item Insurance and make loot from monsters AND players worth-while.

Crafters will have purpose, monster hunters will have purpose... and it would definitely revitalize the economy as bartering for things would once again be worth it.

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I strongly disagree that removing item insurance would revitalize the crafting community. In fact, I really think they should simply go the route that other MMOs have gone, and remove the chance to lose particular items through combat altogether, because I still believe that the resistances and properties are something that make UO more dynamic and after you work for ages to put a suit together, losing it just a slap in the face. If making these suits "easily replaceable" becomes a goal, then there will be no reason to work to put something together at all, which brings everything to a common level, which is bad for any MMO, because it removes the need for actually doing anything in the game.

What I believe would revitalize the crafter community is two-fold:

First, the enhancement process needs to take on a different role than it does now. There should be enhancements like exist today that improve the quality of the armor or weapon, but there should ALSO be enhancements that DON'T risk destroying the armor or weapon. These might have a limited scope on them that would have to be replaced during item repair (ie: repairing removes the temporary enhancements) or after a certain time period (enhancements work for a week). These could be such things as adding a slayer ability to a non-slayer weapon, adding night sight to a particular item, and if UO had a decent enough system, even adding a glow or color to a weapon. Hell, maybe they could do something where item coloration outside of the standard ores and permanent dyes (I like Tokunos and think they should put ALL colors back in, but they should be very rare) happens through a temporary dye put on by a crafter.

The only way to revitalize the crafter community is by having stuff that is needed consistently, but making people replace high-end items on a regular basis is not the answer, and if high-end items become commonplace, there's no high-end item, thus nothing to strive for.

However, this won't change that a majority of the UO playerbase has their own crafter at this point, and if that remains the case, then the only thing that helps there is having stuff that is needed that hardcore crafters would find easier (ie: the gems that drop for miners) than the non-hardcore. But in UO that also means that if it's for the hardcore, then it's abused and controlled by the scripters.

It's not an easy solution, but removing item insurance, IM(NS)HO, is not the answer.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

"But this is an item based game now and they can't do that!!!1!1!" you say? What you don't seem to realize is there's an infinite supply of replacements to anything you might lose. Sure it isn't all uber-powerful, but you start at the bottom and work your way back up slowly. It's not like it would be happening often enough to the average player to make it overbearingly annoying.

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No, there is not an infinite supply of replacements for "anything" you might lose. There is an infinite supply for hardcore gamers. For the casual player, putting together that all-70's suit is not happening either overnight or cheaply. And the idea that "gold is falling from the heavens" as some people seem to believe is not now, nor has it ever been, true to the casual player. As the prices continue to rise -- due mostly to dupes, hacks, exploits, and scripters -- the distance between casual player and affordable replacement continues to grow.

The idea of starting back at the bottom and working your way back up slowly is not something most gamers think is a fun idea. Let me equate it to this: What if you died and lost 2% of your skill points each time you died? Well, you certainly wouldn't want to die, so upper-end content would become undoable for you -- because you know, you might die three or four times due to lag, a bug, or just the odd two-screens-away explosion flamestrike combo. How many deaths would it take before you just got tired of rebuilding already difficult to gain skills?

It's the same equation. If I wanted to start a new character, I would. If I wanted to build a new armor set, I would. Forcing people to do it just for the sake of having something to do is NOT good game design. What needs to happen is new and better reasons to craft stuff or to loot stuff, but making it so that the primary needs of the game become expendable is not the answer.

What you don't seem to realize is there's an infinite supply of replacements to anything you might lose. Sure it isn't all uber-powerful, but you start at the bottom and work your way back up slowly. It's not like it would be happening often enough to the average player to make it overbearingly annoying.

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Unless I could wave a magic wand and replace my Assassin's armor (or any rare armor set) any time it was lost, I'd have to say you were dead wrong on this one.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Remove Item Insurance and make loot from monsters AND players worth-while.

Crafters will have purpose, monster hunters will have purpose... and it would definitely revitalize the economy as bartering for things would once again be worth it.

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I strongly disagree that removing item insurance would revitalize the crafting community. In fact, I really think they should simply go the route that other MMOs have gone, and remove the chance to lose particular items through combat altogether, because I still believe that the resistances and properties are something that make UO more dynamic and after you work for ages to put a suit together, losing it just a slap in the face. If making these suits "easily replaceable" becomes a goal, then there will be no reason to work to put something together at all, which brings everything to a common level, which is bad for any MMO, because it removes the need for actually doing anything in the game.

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Ok... I really don't get how you believe that item insurance wouldn't revitalize the crafting/bartering/merchant community?

If crafters could easily craft decent gear (reasonable would be not spending 100 hours doing heartwood quests for 1 decent runic) and if the loot off of monsters was also good and proportionate...

how would removing item insurance not help? People would lose their items more readily and will need them to be replaced.

The reason why crafters and monster hunting in general has been flushed down the toilet is because once you have something... you pretty much will never lose it... (along with things like taming... I don't even know if people remembered those tamers who would sell pets at the bank)

Economics is supply and demand... when the demand for things plumits because everyone has it and won't lose it... then what good is having any supply? Everyone already has it...

If your post had some points in it that stated why you're against this... I dunno, maybe we could discuss it?

Stratics VeteranAlumni

Unless I could wave a magic wand and replace my Assassin's armor (or any rare armor set) any time it was lost, I'd have to say you were dead wrong on this one.

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And you think it would be the first piece of rare or even unique equipment that would be lost in this game due to breaking or being looted? People have lost stuff WAY more valuable than the new set armor before and still kept on playing.

Also, I thought you couldn't use fort powder on the new armor sets anyway, meaning you're looking at that eventually regardless.

And you think it would be the first piece of rare or even unique equipment that would be lost in this game due to breaking or being looted? People have lost stuff WAY more valuable than the new set armor before and still kept on playing.

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Lost due to a bug is one thing. Loss that occurs over and over again, and is part of the game programming is another. In an item based game, losing rare items is one of the worst things you can do.

Which is why you do what was done before.. put it away when its about to break.

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I'd actually like to be able to use the things I have, and continue to do so. Not use it for a week or 2 then put it away forever. What would be the point in that?

It doesn't even have to be rare armor. If one single piece of a suit was to break, disappear, whatever, the entire suit would have to be redone.

Until there's a way to replace exact pieces of armor & weapons, item breakage and/or loss has no place in UO. It's too hard and takes too long to get pieces with the resists & properties you need for your character.

Right after AOS came out 5 years ago, a set of 1/2 fc/fcr jewlries sold for millions, so were items with either 20% LRC or 100 luck as their only mod. Now, most of the players don't pay attention to them and call them crap. The point? "crap", "junk", "low-end", "decent", "high-end".. are relative terms. Once a player put together a set of equipment that is better than most of other players, it will be really hard to improve further. The loot that targets relatively new players won't be attractive at all. Call it the arm race.

I think the current status of the current arm race is still under control. There are some insane items looted by lucky players or crafted by ill obtained high end runic. But we have yet seen many players in god mode in pvp/pvm. The vast majority of us may max out less than 5-6 mods on our equipments. While it is frustrating not being able to easily improve our equipment further, asking for better loots will do no good other than push the arm race to its end - all of us have maxed out items. Then what?

The key to solve the unattractive loot and to balance between craft/looted items is one word - consumable.
Doom Artifact level items should spawn on all high level monsters (e.g. Barlon)but with a twist: those items either have non-rechargable durability (weapons/armors) or a timer like peerless keys (jewlries, clothing, etc.). Dev has introduced some items that can not be powdered. I like the concept but the items should be more "useful" for broader game play. To make it more interesting, those consumable items can be non-insurable.

The insurance system on all other items should stay. Insurance is good for casual players and after 5 years, there is just no way back.

The melissa spawn is a prime example of how bad loot is. You can sit there and kill paragon balrons all damned day and never see anything even close to usable drop as loot on them.

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Or you can get amazing pieces that sell for millions, just like the bow I sold today. The one good thing about loot packs that large is the odds of having at least a couple of decent to great items in it are vastly improved.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

What needs to be done is a comprehensive overhaul of the entire loot and craft system. It has to be done together. Instead of loot being done by facet, for the most part, or paragon or whatever loot needs to be scaled on a per MOB basis. A lizardman might have an axe but a slime would not. Loot doesn't make any sense.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Ok... I really don't get how you believe that item insurance wouldn't revitalize the crafting/bartering/merchant community?

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You don't? Really? So you read the first paragraph -- the one that you quoted -- and then you skipped all of my reasoning and suggestion that followed? Right. Not sure how better to explain my point then.

If your post had some points in it that stated why you're against this... I dunno, maybe we could discuss it?

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Unlike your original post, which can be summarized as "I don't like this, take it out," I not only provided reasoning, I also provided suggestion. Clearly with two posts under your belt now, and no reasoning to back up your point except that, "I believe it, so it must be so," I'm not going to sway you. Which is fine. But don't insult me by indicating I've ignored my responsibility to provide reason and construction to my arguements.

Stratics Veteran

I think that they need to get rid of the item randomness in UO... For example, many items would have a base item name followed by a suffix. Similar to how we fight stuff for artifacts and minor artifacts. They would need to create a hell of a lot new items for this kind of drop. I believe this is how it was originally intended for AoS, and it should have been done this way..

Stratics Veteran

I don't like the idea of all high end items coming from crafters for several reasons.
1. The high end crafting rewards (runic tools) tend to get duped
2. The current high-end reward system isn't very interactive... It's just mass repetition, which encourages scripting.
3. Having the only relevant loot come from crafters means that there's no reason to kill monsters aside from the gold they drop. That's not a very good design for an adventure-based game.

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I'm certainly not going to say that the current system is flawless. The way I see it, the trouble with crafters right now is that there is very little gameplay in the act of crafting a high end item - once you have all the ingredients and tools you click and poof you have it. This needs to somehow be stretched out a little.

I had an idea I posted a few years ago about a fishtank-like "artifice forge" that asked you for a list of ingredients each day and allowed you to keep slowly increasing the intensity of the mods as long as you managed to gather the ever-increasing demands for ingredients. Eventually you would hit some requirement too numerous, too rare or too expensive to be worth continuing and that's where you would finish the item. This stretches the crafting of a higher-end item out over weeks or months and gives you a list of things to do each day or two.

I would like to see monster hunting be about getting the ingredients: monster parts, artifact pieces, recyclables. There can be gear along the way, but not high-end gear. The nice thing about peerless ingredients is that they encourage mutual dependency. I think the system could be improved (mostly because I don't hunt peerless so have never gotten any ingredients on my own), but fundamentally I think it's a good system.

What about making runic tools "owned by" the person who acquired them (and make that mean nobody else can use it: you earned it, you use it)? This won't stop duping, but it will limit the ability to launder them through resellers. Dramaticly lower the intensity of runics while boosting the effect of materials, then make runics more common (I'd recommend more interesting systems for getting them, but I really don't have any ideas at the moment ... besides, BODs can be rather relaxing as long as your not competing-with/judging-your-accomplishments-by scripters).

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