Am I following the correct reforging/gemming? (I apologize if I should not be asking this question in this thread) My guild ran through lfr last night just to test out the changes and acclimate to our toons. The new active mitigation felt really smooth and I really liked the more involved method of picking to use block or barrier; the damage output seemed much steeper also with the vengence changes.

We'll be doing our usual HM clear tonight (we delayed it from last night to let everyone adjust to the changes) so I will get an opportunity to test it out against some higher incoming damage.

Am I following the correct reforging/gemming? (I apologize if I should not be asking this question in this thread) My guild ran through lfr last night just to test out the changes and acclimate to our toons. The new active mitigation felt really smooth and I really liked the more involved method of picking to use block or barrier; the damage output seemed much steeper also with the vengence changes.

We'll be doing our usual HM clear tonight (we delayed it from last night to let everyone adjust to the changes) so I will get an opportunity to test it out against some higher incoming damage.

Hi there,

For right now, at lvl-85, your optimization isn't too bad. You could lose those Stamina gems, by replacing them with Mastery/Stam ones, or 50 Mastery for yellow sockets, it would be even better. Same with your trinkets. Replacing at least one of them with a Mastery trinket will be more effective generally (again, unless you're fighting a magic based boss like Yor'shaj).

The rest seems fine for now, ; ) Check out the ''Stat priority'' and ''Gear optimization'' section in the guide for all the details. Let me know if you have more questions afterwards.

Awesome work, Kebess! I've been subscribed to your youtube-channel for a while now and it has been a very good source of info throughout the beta. Sad to see Thylacine had to withdraw his work, but yours is excellent aswell. Ill give it a more thorough read tomorrow.

Awesome work, Kebess! I've been subscribed to your youtube-channel for a while now and it has been a very good source of info throughout the beta. Sad to see Thylacine had to withdraw his work, but yours is excellent aswell. Ill give it a more thorough read tomorrow.

What do you guys think (in a long run) about Paladin tanks vs Warrior tanks. They do have really nice DR (but physical) and self-heals with my LFR/Normal geared Alt is sitting on 82 ctc while warrior with full hc gear (but reforged hit/exp) 70 ctc. My view on this is that whole absorb shield (or sb when needed) looks more stable then just physical dmg reduction with 1 magic DR cooldown (40/20% but with small cd) but when I did some 5mans/raids I could feel that dmg income is quite bigger then usual was even with hit/exp capped to let the rage flow for SBL/SB. What you guys think, of course without saying better player > better class as I already think like that since druids started to go bearly.

Hehe, yeah, two months is pretty long in a beta, ; ) Virtually anything can happen in that much time.

Well yes, and no...

You will want to optimize your gear for each and every specific encounter, if you're progressing on an ''unnerfed'' heroic content. It will be pretty mandatory in those cases.

Now, if you're only looking for something to get the job done, without necessary having 10 different gear sets in your bag, then you might simply want to go for the first priority :

Mastery > Hit = Exp > Parry > Dodge

That one will be very strong on most melee hitter encounters, as you'll only get a better result in some few multi-tanking encounters with the 2nd priority. And since you'll have a bit of Hit&Exp too, it won't be too bad for magic based fights neither, especially if you slip in one or two Stamina trinkets as well.

In short, simply balance your stats out - get some Hit&Exp (7.5% Hit/Expertise, should be a very nice start), then put the rest into Mastery, and find yourself a couple of Stamina trinkets for whenever stacking a bit of Stam is useful.

What do you guys think (in a long run) about Paladin tanks vs Warrior tanks.

I don't want to be rude, but I'd rather keep discussions of that type out of this guide. They're not really on topic and, traditionally, they never end well. Let's just go with "different is different" and leave it there?

You'r not (you'r just scared :P) and with so many guides out there, sure let's keep one nice and tidy. Either way question stands how do you feel after changes with your dmg income via nerfed dodge, lost ctc for hit/exp etc?

As for guide itself I find myself with IV being superior to ER via "need to be enraged" or cost 60rage, but it's always whatever tanks like more. After testing too I don't see how Unending Rage can be a good thing as 'not spending' rage makes you bit limited tbh (it's nice for DPS tho to prepare for burn phases), imo something to rethink thru.

You'r not (you'r just scared :P) and with so many guides out there, sure let's keep one nice and tidy. Either way question stands how do you feel after changes with your dmg income via nerfed dodge, lost ctc for hit/exp etc?

As for guide itself I find myself with IV being superior to ER via "need to be enraged" or cost 60rage, but it's always whatever tanks like more. After testing too I don't see how Unending Rage can be a good thing as 'not spending' rage makes you bit limited tbh (it's nice for DPS tho to prepare for burn phases), imo something to rethink thru.

Steady damage income isn’t what threatens tanks, spikes threaten tanks. The Glyph of Unending Rage lets you bank a little more for when you really need it, rather than wasting any. Paladins use a talent to get a maximum of 5 Holy Power (where you can only use 3), while warriors get the glyph of Unending Rage.

Also, Shield Barrier has rage limits of 60, 40 and 20. This means that with a full rage bar, you can dump everything into two full barriers without needing an attack to land; you could plant a shout in there for a 60/60/20 barrier, or potentially even a Sword and Board Shield Slam with your shout for a 60/60/40.

Personally, I'd go with Dragon Roar instead of Shockwave for two reasons:
- bypasses armor and is aoe instead of physical damage and cone
- has a longer CD. with the new rage mechanic, every ability outside of SS, Rev and Dev has a "hidden" rage cost. rev and SS generate rage, and dev can proc SS which then generates even more rage. everything else has a hidden rage cost, because it consumes a GCD which could've been one of the three main abilities. losing one GCD can mean no SS proc, which means no rage, which can turn into a smaller uptime of SBlock. SW is 20 seconds, so if you use it on cooldown, you loose approx. 11% of all GCDs (one every 9) to shockwave. this must not be underestimated, especially at lower gear levels.

Personally, I'd go with Dragon Roar instead of Shockwave for two reasons:
- bypasses armor and is aoe instead of physical damage and cone
- has a longer CD. with the new rage mechanic, every ability outside of SS, Rev and Dev has a "hidden" rage cost. rev and SS generate rage, and dev can proc SS which then generates even more rage. everything else has a hidden rage cost, because it consumes a GCD which could've been one of the three main abilities. losing one GCD can mean no SS proc, which means no rage, which can turn into a smaller uptime of SBlock. SW is 20 seconds, so if you use it on cooldown, you loose approx. 11% of all GCDs (one every 9) to shockwave. this must not be underestimated, especially at lower gear levels.

The things is, you don't really take Shockwave for the single target damage, but rather for some frequent fairly strong AoE multi-tanking uses, or for more frequent stuns. You'll get 3 of that in a minute with SW, and only 1 with Dragon Roar.

On a single target, that can not be stunned, Dragon Roar wins, I totally agree, but not in a multi-target tanking situation, where very often you need to be able to AoE more frequently to pick up new spawns of adds, or to simply stun them regularly and hence reduce the damage they do on you.
So generally, in a multi-target tanking situation SW wins for those reasons.

Furthermore, Dragon Roar and Shockwave, shouldn't be used regularly at all ( outside of a multi-tanking environment). Simply because they provide zero Rage, so in the optimal RPS rotation, placing a Devastate instead should be always a better move.

If you still do need that extra DPS for a single target that cannot be stunned (typically a boss), then you might indeed want to pick Dragon Roar instead of Shockwave, as I mentioned in the offensive build. This is even why DR is the recommended talent in that off-tank build.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 11:33 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ysearia

You'r not (you'r just scared :P) and with so many guides out there, sure let's keep one nice and tidy. Either way question stands how do you feel after changes with your dmg income via nerfed dodge, lost ctc for hit/exp etc?

As for guide itself I find myself with IV being superior to ER via "need to be enraged" or cost 60rage, but it's always whatever tanks like more. After testing too I don't see how Unending Rage can be a good thing as 'not spending' rage makes you bit limited tbh (it's nice for DPS tho to prepare for burn phases), imo something to rethink thru.

Choosing between ER and IV, is a very personal thing really, when it comes to the Main tank build, ; ) I may update a bit that part, by leaving it blank and providing more pros and cons for the two talents, instead, so everyone can then decide for themselves.

I personally prefer ER, because it provides a greater healing burst, which is always more interesting to have as a Panic button. Everyone would prefer Last Stand than Rallying Cry as a Panic button, right ? Well it's very similar here.

You can still go for IV as I said, if you want more regular but also lower healing instead. You're really free to pick anyone - try them both out, and use whichever you fancy the most!

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 11:35 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ysearia

You'r not (you'r just scared :P) and with so many guides out there, sure let's keep one nice and tidy. Either way question stands how do you feel after changes with your dmg income via nerfed dodge, lost ctc for hit/exp etc?

My only gripe right now is I feel so gimped vs our palie tank! Last night there was nothing I could do to keep up with his threat / dmg output. Not sure if this is just me having totally shitty game play or if there is something I totally missed and pallies kill us now. We use to compete and be on par but now it's just ridiculous how much more he does on boss fights compared to me...and aoe trash don't get me started..I was sitting at 14k and he was at 22k (most of it from consecrate).

Is there something that wars can do to up aoe dmg while in prot that I'm totally missing? TC, Cleave on proc, Rev on cd, SW on cd... I don't see much more for us to do yet it's giving shiat dmg

I'm pretty sure if you use a second Shield Block while the first one is still up the time of the first one is just added to the duration. (afaik)

I just checked it again in game, and you are right. I'm not really sure when this change actually happened, but it does stack up pretty nicely.
It's been corrected in the guide.

Thanks for pointing this out.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 02:40 PM ----------

Originally Posted by bobyboucher

Thank you so much for the guide it's amazing!

My only gripe right now is I feel so gimped vs our palie tank! Last night there was nothing I could do to keep up with his threat / dmg output. Not sure if this is just me having totally shitty game play or if there is something I totally missed and pallies kill us now. We use to compete and be on par but now it's just ridiculous how much more he does on boss fights compared to me...and aoe trash don't get me started..I was sitting at 14k and he was at 22k (most of it from consecrate).

Is there something that wars can do to up aoe dmg while in prot that I'm totally missing? TC, Cleave on proc, Rev on cd, SW on cd... I don't see much more for us to do yet it's giving shiat dmg

Glad you liked the guide, ; )

One thing that should be taken into account is that, many of the new mechanics balance out much better at lvl-90, and not so well at lvl-85.
Furthermore, when we are talking specifically about damage/threat output, we are actually missing abilities like Avatar, Bloodbath, and Skull Banner, to increase our DPS and threat burst. Not having them at level 85, inevitably penalizes us very much right now on live, but shouldn't be the case anymore at level 90.

But even with that said, after doing some quick testing yesterday on live, I find myself having about 50% more DPS than before, and this is mainly because of how Vengeance works now. It can stack indefinitely as long as you're being hit, I ended up with some really amazing AP numbers (40-50K at lvl-85). This means if your Pally is the one that has aggro on mobs, you'll really have a tough time trying to compete with him.

Also, try reaching the Hit/Expertise soft cap (7.5%). It should be very easily done at lvl-85, and you wouldn't necessary lose any survivability neither. This is what I did, and frankly I haven't had any better DPS output on live until now.

In AoE scenarios, try using a bit more your Cleave as well - if you have enough Mastery (which should be the case at lvl-85), you shouldn't have any Rage issues in multi-tanking even with a little Rage spent on Cleaves.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 03:05 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Ysearia

You'r not (you'r just scared :P) and with so many guides out there, sure let's keep one nice and tidy. Either way question stands how do you feel after changes with your dmg income via nerfed dodge, lost ctc for hit/exp etc?

The lost CTC makes things a bit harder for Shield tanks right now at lvl-85 - because before the patch, we could simply block everything passively, but now, we have to have a proper gameplay, and usage of SB/Bar to do that.
If they did reduce the damage DS bosses do accordingly, so that even when Shield Block isn't up we take the same amount of damage we did before the patch, thanks to our CTC cap, then we wouldn't see any difference. I'm not sure they did anything to DS bosses damage though.

At level 90 on beta, however we don't have this problem, as bosses damage are scaled so that, if you have the appropriate gear, you don't get 2 shot when SB/Bar isn't active for a couple of seconds.

Anyways, I'll have more numbers, and a more accurate view on this tonight after my DS raid.

---------- Post added 2012-08-30 at 03:09 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Thylacine

Steady damage income isn’t what threatens tanks, spikes threaten tanks. The Glyph of Unending Rage lets you bank a little more for when you really need it, rather than wasting any. Paladins use a talent to get a maximum of 5 Holy Power (where you can only use 3), while warriors get the glyph of Unending Rage.

Also, Shield Barrier has rage limits of 60, 40 and 20. This means that with a full rage bar, you can dump everything into two full barriers without needing an attack to land; you could plant a shout in there for a 60/60/20 barrier, or potentially even a Sword and Board Shield Slam with your shout for a 60/60/40.

How much more parry should we have than dodge?
Is it straight Parry >> Dodge b/c of different deminishing return levels, and if so at what point do we want to start stacking dodge instead?

Hi there,

The accurate number isn't clear, because it changes with the total avoidance %tage you have on your gear. But it is certainly very close to some 2.5 times more parry %tage than dodge.
I have 12% Dodge and 25.5% Parry, and increasing my dodge now gives me more or less the same avoidance %tage as increasing Parry. There's only some 0.01% difference for each 100 or so rating I convert.

How much more parry should we have than dodge?
Is it straight Parry >> Dodge b/c of different deminishing return levels, and if so at what point do we want to start stacking dodge instead?

You can ignore dodge or reforge it to something useful, in a nutshell. The DR discrepancy is so large that it's not even worth it at this point. Parry is the only avoidance you should bother with, miss you can do nothing about besides class change and dodge is a waste of stats.