Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year?

This translation of a televised conversation reveals a rare glimpse into the outlook of Muslim scholars who are concerned about Christianity’s growth. The invited guest is Sheikh Ahmad Al Katani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers.

Katani starts off describing the overall problem:

Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa’s main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed.

From what I have heard from reliable sources, six million may be too low. Reliable accounts say that one hundred thousand Africans convert to Christianity per day, though not all of them come from Islam. Then Katani says Muslims should build schools before mosques, in order to build the worshipper (Muslim) before the building. Why? To stop the the dangerous “Christian missionary octopus”

This happens often! The wealthy Arab builds a mosque for himself or one of his parents of his friend, but my dear sir, building a mosque comes as a second stage. In America, the price of building an Islamic school is 5 million dollars. In Africa, 50 thousand dollars are enough to build a very reasonably sized school. I say this and I take full responsibility for it; building a school comes before building a mosque. Build the worshiper before you build the mosque. Take for example yourself; you go to the mosque five times a day and if you added all that time it would equal an hour or maybe two hours if you include the Friday prayer. However, if I ask you how long you stayed at school, you will reply that you spent years in middle school and years in high school. Likewise the African goes to the mosque, but if we built him a school where he could spend most of his time, and provided specialized educators we could at least stop this dangerous Christian missionary octopus.

Katani states the purpose of his school:

The truth is, the institution that I administer is considered pre-college. As for the subject of attracting and preparing specialized missionaries to bring them from their countries to Libya in order to train them and return them back to their countries, that is done through the Islamic Propagation Organization. This organization has graduated a number of classes, some of whose students had masters and doctorate degrees. These efforts were fruitful in that these graduates were able to attract people from their lands and countries because they spoke the language and understood the customs of the people they were proselytizing. This way, the missionary is not a foreigner to the community he is working with, contrast that to what would happen if I went to the Philippines for example. I can’t speak a single Philippino word; much less invite people to the faith.

By now other Muslim leaders have joined in. Abbas Hamid lives in Holland, and he deplores the un-Islamic way of life:

My brother may Allah reward you. We muslims in Holland suffer a lot when we see issues like this and we really suffer when we see a muslim, as the sheikh said, who spends millions in bars and entertainment while other muslims are lost and cannot find a translation of the Koran. Even their children who are able to learn cannot memorize the Koran, they can’t find a translated Koran or even any translated book. The first thing we must do is mend our selves; the Islamic countries must fix themselves first and then they can look at Africa. May Allah reward you and this issue is interesting.

Later, an Arabic-speaking Christian discusses how Islam must preach peace and love. No one denies, as none of the Muslim scholars do, that a religion has the right to spread his faith (except in hard line Islamic countries), but these leaders seem panicky. They express frustration at Islam’s disorganized efforts to maintain Africa. But this one idea eludes them: Islam itself is the problem because it is a burdensome and harsh religion. This is apparent when one Muslim scholar talks about implementing Shari’ah as if it is self-evident that it benefits society.

The whole conversation is fascinating. We must educate ourselves about Islam, and with the worldwide web, we have unprecedented opportunities.

64 Responses to Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year?

The learned Muslim scholars are now realizing what the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at has realized many decades ago: That is why the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at has already set up hundreds of schools in Africa, so that Muslims should not be ‘coerced’ (pushed into) converting to Christianity.

Even in the Balkans I have noticed how Christian priests openly used the following argument in order to convert Muslims to Christianity: “Realize what is better: The Euro or the Turkish Lira” (that was at a time when the Euro was strong and the Turkish Lira was weak. Now it is already the other way round).

Met Muslims from Congo, Senegal, Ivory Coast(Cote d’ivoire). Understood certain facts from their life that, war ravaged societies promote greater assimilation and multi-culturalism which arises out of helplessness. Religion apart, African people and everyone should learn to stand up on their own feet. Else, colonialism is the fate. Whether that’s muslim colonialism or christian colonialism. One more thing noticeable about African people is their tolerance of other faiths/ideas. Both Christians and Muslims Africans posses this trait and is worth admiration. Efforts of jamat are surely worth admiration when it comes to promoting education, both worldly and religious.

Fortunately, we are far ahead than the above mentioned Muslims. They should, however, first get their own act together (their discordant beliefs), before promoting it elsewhere.

zubair khan

April 19, 2012 at 6:28 am

It is right to comment that Ahmadiyya is much better as compared to other Muslim groups but to me in Africa we are confronted with Christians as such must review our strategies accordingly. I have visited few countries of West Africa and just last week was in Ghana where met one Ahmadi from Gambia. What I came to know that these days Ahmdies in African countires are relatively less enthusiastic or energetic to the spread of message of Ahmadiyya Islam as compared to decade earlier. What methods considered to be more effective depends on the situation of each country and Community should adopt such methods accordingly.

Ahmadiyya Movement Goes Mainstream in Sierra Leone
News – Feature Stories
BO – The impact on Sierra Leonean society of the Ahmadiyya Movement was apparent as close to 15,000 adherents known as Ahmadis converged on this southern town over the weekend of Feb 3, 2012. Known as a Jalsa Salana, the conference is the 51st such annual gathering in Sierra Leone and was opened by President Ernest Bai Koroma.

According to Maulvi Fuard Lawleh, a Sierra Leonean devotee and national education secretary, Ahmadi missionaries started arriving in Sierra Leone in 1936 and built their first primary school at Rokupr, Kambia District. Tens of thousands of Sierra Leoneans have been educated at the
They also run health centers and mosques in communities all over the country.

Lawler said that the schools, whose curriculum is devoid of religious indoctrination, are open to all citizens regardless of religious beliefs.

Please note: ‘The Ahmadiyya Schools are open to all citizens regardless of religious beliefs’.

This reminds me of one Alhaji Mohammed Hassan Josef Al-Atta that I have met from Ghana. When inquiring how come he had a name of Josef (and not Yusuf) he replied that the only school in his youth near his home was a Christian Missionary School and admission was for Christians only. Consequently his father added the name Josef to his names and told the school teacher that I was now a Christian…

(That is the reason why Ahmadiyya schools were needed in Africa).

Ataul Wahid LaHaye

April 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm

I toured Nigeria in 2008, travelling 5,500 kil. In Nigeria Jamat Ahmadiyya does not count converts , they count villages, and my God there were a lot of villages converted to Ahmadiyyat. I was amazed at the respect the Nigerians had for our Missionaries. I was even more amazed at the sacrifices our missionaries were making in spreading the message of Islam. Many time sleeping in the jungle, contracting malaria dozens of times, travelling from village to village with nothing but the cloths on their backs. The main selling point of Christianity is that it allows men and woman to attend their functions together with no limit on their contact. So the muslims who become Christian do so for selfish motives and not to be saved or attain any level of spirituality. The country itself is an absolute mess and in my opinion only the system of Jamat and Khalifat can save it. I met many Kings who were of the same opinion. Congratulations Jamat Ahmadiyyat Nigeria.

You made the right observation that the country, Nigeria, is a mess but you never said why. It is basically because the elite in its Caliphate north who are no more than lazy nominal Moslems hide behind the religion to grab national political power through which they have unlimited access to national wealth and resources. But they only shamelessly squander all that in the midst of the abject poverty and squalor living conditions of the mostly Muslim poor.They used to hide this perfidy behind forcing Sharia laws on dissenting others mostly fellow Moslems as well as Christians. But when they realized how futile that effort was, they resorted to giving covert support to Boko Haram which has been beheading several thousand Moslems and Christians alike in the cities of Maidugiri, Kano, Kaduna, Gombe and Jos. They say it is their way of protesting that modern education is un-Islamic as well as to forcefully Islamize the whole country where majority Southern Christians hold a powerful clout on education, technology, banking and industry. You can already guess that by the time the Boko Haram insurgency and reign of terror is over, which is certainly pretty soon, only a few hardened Moslems will remain even among Caliphate political power-hungry die-hards of the faith.

It is those sluthful Muslim leaders from the Caliphate North of the country who collude with their fellow thieving politicians from the South that need those prayers. You know what? Among their wives are women of disrepute from the South who happen to be Christians. Besides that, these rotten so called Northern leaders are like their rich Saudi counterparts who flock to Indonesia to patronize prostitutes and unabashedly consume heavy liquor and other forms of alcohol. Only that in Nigeria they flock to the Christian South for short-wearing loose women. Ask typical high profile prostitutes in Nigeria, and they will happily boast that the rich Alhajis from the Caliphate North are their highest paying retainers and customers.

These slothful Caliphate looters of the national treasury have developed a new pastime. They now look the other way while their foot soldiers, the almajiri street beggars acting on behalf of Boko Haram, meaning Western Education is Forbidden; are armed with AK 47 rifles and explosives devises made from cheap government subsidized fertilizer. They systematically engage in destroying all national telephone infrastructures in their part of the country. Their fear? The security agents now possess the technical capability to use phone logs to trace the thieving criminal politicians who give them tacit support. They do this because, in their retarded minds, they believe that terrorism helps them to intimidate the Christian and secular Moslem majority mostly in the Southwest and the Middlebelt of the country to surrender Federal level power to them so that they will always continue to loot the national treasury with reckless impunity as usual. But it will never work ever again. It is rather sad many more mullions of Muslims are disenchanted with these uncivilized medieval antics and are flocking in droves to Christianity. More astonishing is that some are being ordained as priests and pastors.

It is a huge challenge for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at, who is teaching law and order and love for all and hatred for none. May Allah bless the Jama’at and strengthen them to make a real difference in Nigeria!

religious conversion is the traditional style of voting. imagine the situation if majority suris and bahrainis convert to christianity! quickly, friends of america will install new leaders and restructure the economy. Then, the nation can live instead of being paralysed.

Tarkan

February 21, 2013 at 4:30 am

I dont think that the conversion rate is that high as stated above. The numbers grow mainly due to birthrates. Worldwide islam is growing faster due to higher birthrates in the less developed countries. I think as far as conversion is concerned christianity should be more succesful. I myself converted from islam to christianity but i know that both sides exaggerate the numbers of converts to show who is gonna win the battle for souls. But the fact is that the numbers of converts to christianity as given officially by muslim governments is much higher. Many christians stay silent or even continue to go to mosques to avoid suspicion whereas you can openly convert to islam without fear for your life and social bonds. I wish the Ahmadiyya luck and success in converting all the other muslims to ahmadiyya islam.

D1

March 6, 2013 at 4:32 am

its disheartening that the so called religion of peace has only succeed in sending millions of Nigerians to early grave. pls tell your Bolo Haram brothers that there soul will rest in hell in they don’t repent and accept JESUS(the prince of peace).

D1: First of all it is not ‘millions’ that have been killed, however, yes, it does not matter. Even one murder is too much. If you would read our Muslim Times regularly – and affiliated websites such as http://www.alislam.org – you will note that no terrorists are our ‘brothers’. Todays community with the Motto ‘Love for all and hatred for none’ you will find on The Muslim Times and on http://www.alislam.org.

Althaf

March 16, 2013 at 8:22 am

American’s are spending millions of dollars in case to convert Muslims in to Christians i saw a video in YouTube regarding this issue, how much they have spent to convert Muslims, by the way eyewitness is me my self, American Christians came to Sri lanka, and they helped poor people regarding financial issue & they homes, and American Christians said Jesus (pbuh) sent us to help you, your Muslims don’t help you and covert them in to Christians.

Once i went to a Mosque where i saw a friend while i was speaking with him, he said that they went for some country in Africa, & they went for calling towards god (ALLAH) and if u meet a christian and give him some money or gift he will come to Muslim, their Faith is not true & they deserve only this world. So it clearly shows us this converted Muslims, can be again taken to Muslim, by giving money.

3M

May 20, 2013 at 12:19 am

Why should I convert to Islam from Christianity.Give me some credible answers.Look at the pathetic situations of many Islamic nations.Look at the inequalities women faces in these countries,women should not be used for pregnancy alone.they do have rights as men do.Terrorism and poverty is the biggest cause why these African countries turning their back to Islam.Enough with Qua ran studies,try to teach some humanitarian values.

3M: Look at the peaceful message of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at (Community). Please study the literature on http://www.alislam.org and read more articles on The Muslim Times. (I am sure other readers will give you more details). (We from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at are giving our message of Love for All and Hatred for None not only to Non-Muslims, but to Muslims also).

Taquif Baliachi

June 14, 2013 at 6:14 pm

So does that mean Muslims Murder 6 Million African Apostates every Year?

mart: Why do you need a ‘separate Savior’? Can God not forgive our sins directly?

K.RASHEED

June 18, 2013 at 8:04 am

This is a false and incorrect news. Christian people are converting to islam in africa. Those who posted this news just confirm and then tell the truth. Keep one thing in mind that “BIBLE” is not the holy book of christians, but the “INJEEL”. Christian religion’s foundation is all based on lie. Lie never get success. Besides everyone know that christian people are not living according to their christian principles. Christians are ending gradually. One day EESA nabi(jesus) will come here in this world and he will tell the world and to the christians that “BIBLE”is not the holy book of jesus, but the injeel. After knowing the truth of injeel as the original holy book, 90% of christian will convert to islam. And i am challenging the christians that not any religion in this world can compare with islam because islam came from allah. Christians are fearing about islam and islamic people. In other words i would say “ISLAMOPHOBIA”.

Reply to Mr Rafiq – With all the respect for islam, your comment on so called Separate Saviour is coming from your ignorance on Christianity. As Christians believe in Holy Trinity. That is The Holy Father, Son and Holy Spirit which is THE ONE.
Is it too complicated to apprehend only if you do not accept other people’s beliefs.
I am not intending to debate here ( BTW alien to this site) BUT you have the right to think for yourself, of course.

Rasheed: You call this incorrect news..hm, I would not distrust AlJazeera source.

Yes, I never could understand the trinity and that is why I chose ISLAM as my religion. – One priest trying to explain ‘The Holy Ghost’ said that this is the same as for you ‘The Holy Qur’an’. – (but I still do not understand the trinity…). May Allah be our guide always!

friendsfrnd

July 31, 2013 at 4:45 am

Dear Mr. Rafiq.

Am not a scholar either in Christianity nor in Islam.

But I have studied Quran for more than 10 years living in Saudi.

I understand that Quran mentions about Holy Spirit, below given are some of the reference from Quran.

“Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. — Qur’an, sura 16 (An-Nahl), ayat 102 [1]

“Then will God say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: “This is nothing but evident magic.” — Qur’an, sura 5 (Al-Ma’ida), ayat 110 [2]

“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give! — Qur’an, sura 32 (As-Sajda), ayat 9 [3]

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of ‘My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” — Qur’an, sura 15 (Al-Hijr), ayat 29 [4]

“And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples. —” Qur’an, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayat 91 [5]

“And Mary the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). — Qur’an, sura 66 (At-Tahrim), ayat 12 [6]

“Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting, — Qur’an, sura 40 (Ghafir), ayat 15 [7]

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity. —Qur’an, sura 58 (Al-Mujadila), ayat 22 [8]

Holy spirit is God itself, Holy Spirit and God is one and the same, they are not separate, even as per Quran.

We in Christianity believe Father that is Almighty God,

We believe Holy Spirit that is again God itself,

We believe in Jesus
We dont believe that Jesus a Man became God, but We believe that Almighty God became Man Jesus.

So thats trinity,

As per Quran there is Almighty God (1)
As per Quran Holy Spirit is of God (2)
As per Bible Almighty God Became Jesus (3)

So Almighty, Holy Spirit, Jesus all are the same.

As mentioned in the Quran, there is Allah and also there is Spirit from Allah that is Holy Spirit. In addition to that we believe in Jesus.

Trinity is that simple.

You believe your Quran about Holy Spirit or Not it is upto you.

But we believe Holy Bible for Almighty God and Holy Spirit and Jesus.

In 10 years in Saudi I have studied Quran, Hadidhs, Tafsirs more than bible.

But I did not find any superior things that is not mentioned in the bible 1000’s of year before Quran.

So if every Good thing has been said in Bible before 1000’s year, even before the birth of Mohd and Quran, then what is there any reason to accept a Quran which just has few additional concepts like religion, rituals, jihad, political system, sexy paradise and some commonly unacceptable instructions?

Forgive me if I have hurt you but truth has to be told when I know the truth.

Dear friendsfrnd, you have given a very good post. The Quran and the Bible both mention The God, Jesus and holy spirit. But nowhere in Bible or Quran, we see any mention that Jesus is God. It is not written that holy Spirit is God. Nowhere.

Quran tells us that Jesus was just a man, a godly persons, means beloved of God. He was not God. Bible also never says that Jesus was God. He himself never said that he was God.

It is same about holy Spirit. In Islam (i.e. Quran), holy spirit is the angel Gabriel a.s. who is also mentioned in Bible too. He brings messages (teachings) from God and delivers them to the prophets. That angel is also not God.

I know where the Christians went astray about Trinity. They brought three gods into play, quite against the Jewish teachings. How could Jesus being a Jew speak such a thing amongst the Jews. That is impossible? How could he call himself as God? Never he could do such a thing in his people.

We cannot understand why church has got the old testament attached with their bible….. They do not believe in Old testament, they do not apply it to themselves, in fact they do not need it, considering it impractical (Having some CURSE). How bad !

The indication for Trinity that church uses is something in last chapters of Mathew where it is said “To preach in the name of the Father and the son and the holy Ghost.” That is perfectly alright but misunderstood.

That verse advises preaching in the name of three beings. It does not say that son and holy ghost are gods. Please note that the advice from Jesus was correct to preach in the Name of the Father and the son and holy ghost. Christians will be preaching for the Father, about the Father and the right faith.
If any will ask from where you have brought this new teaching, they have to mention the son and the holy Spirit. But not to make son and holy spirit as God beside the One God. Church has created a big problem for itself.

Otherwise, since you are wise in Quran, I tell you that the above advice of Jesus a.s. to preach in the name of the Father and the son and the H.S. is same as in Islam. We say “Laa Ilaaha Illa Allah. Muhammad ar Rasool Allah.”

Here the name of Muhammad is permanently attached with Allah in our creed. We preach in the name of Allah and Muhammad. But we do not make Muhammad as a God. We declare that Muhammad is a (servant and) messenger of Allah. He got the message through H.S. just like Jesus used to do. I hope it is understood.

Christians can preach in the name of three persons. But the other two are not gods. God is only one whom Christians call Father. Wassalam.

Deepak Soni

August 30, 2013 at 10:20 pm

HINDUISM is the great religion & you all are requested to join us.

Solomon

September 3, 2013 at 11:42 am

Dear Ghulam Sarwar,
How did you come to the conclusion that the Bible does not mention God’s Spirit. Genesis 1:2 with which the bible starts mentions ‘and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters’.

Trojan

September 8, 2013 at 5:33 pm

Here is the testimony of an Ahmediya Muslim who converted to Christianity.

Moderators, Please do not delete this posting. I realize this is a little hard for Muslims to understand, but maybe some Muslim listening to these testimonies can find a reason to rebuke these two Ex-Muslims and bring them back to the fold of Islam.

If you believe Islam to be really true, then your faith in Allah should be so strong that mere human testimonies should not shake it. On the other hand if by watching these testimonies you or your audience will begin to doubt Islam, then your faith needs to be examined.

Trojan

September 8, 2013 at 7:11 pm

Rafiq says ” Yes, I never could understand the trinity and that is why I chose ISLAM as my religion….”

Wow! that is a most ridiculous reason to chose Islam to believe in.

Let me try and understand your conundrum Rafiq. You see Islam wishes to understand every thing so it make every thing into nice packages like ritualistic consumption tidbits.

Fasting, Prayer, Alms, Pilgrimage, etc, etc. all these practices have become rote and devoid of any meaning or spirituality. All they are, are performances to be measured at the end of times by some higher power sitting in heaven, waiting to crack the whip on anyone who falters.

Similarly, in Islam because of the neat little bundles of information created for mental consumption, your deity Allah is also one who must be placed in a nice neat package, that being ONE package, for Muslims to pay homage to.

In reality Islam has quantified it’s deity, so that it is uncomplicated and frees the Muslim mind from wonder. Hence the Muslim has truly understood the Allah, then there is nothing more to know about him. He defines himself in his 99 glorious names, those being his attributes. All nicely wrapped in a bundle ready for worship.

The Christian understanding of God is far from simple it is something that not even a Christian can easily explain. The Muslim thinks he/she has won all debates with Christians when they question the nature of the God, and don’t get an answer that they can wrap their minds around.

In reality God’s nature is so complex, that there is absolutely NOTHING in the created universe that can be used as an analogy to explain Him, because His nature transcends the whole universe.

We can use the analogy of the universe itself, with it’s components of Space Time and Matter, and then each of the components individually with space being the three dimensions, time being past present and future and matter with it’s three states, but that too will somehow fall short of truly explaining the divine.

However, when Christians say they worship ONE God, they truly mean what they say. The Son (not biological as the Koran makes him out to be) is NOT a partner of the Father, nor is the Spirit another partner. There are in essence One, however NOT the kind of ONE we find in our created universe, but a more complex ONE, that our finite minds will never be able to comprehend.

Hypothetically speaking, If we were two dimensional objects, how would we even begin to comprehend what a three dimensional object would be like, let alone trying to explain it.

So you see, instead of taking the Koran’s incorrect view of what the Christians understanding of God is, try and understand, from a Christian what they believe about the God that Christ revealed, the one who loved the world so much that he did not mind entering his creation in the form of a helpless child. He never lost any of his divine attributes in the event of the incarnation.

I don’t expect to convince you, however at least make an attempt to understand that the Christians are in NO way asserting partners to God, simply because God, as revealed to us by Jesus Christ, Is a UNITY of persons that cannot be Quantified, in our finite universal terms.

While millions of people convert to Islam and Ahmadiyya we do acknowledge that a handful may be leaving it also. Mostly they ‘drift away’ to materialism. This happens everywhere. Only a handful convert to Christianity or any other religion, as pointed out by Troyan. These unfortunate souls most likely did not have a close connection to the right people in the Jama’at in the first place.

Trojan

September 9, 2013 at 1:07 pm

Rafiq says

“Thank you Trojan for admitting that Islam is the most logical religion.”

What a shame! Is this the best you can come up with? Did you even bother reading what I wrote or are you just too brainwashed to see that God is so much more than a mere number you try to fit him into.

Evidently, your conclusion makes you an idol worshipper because you blindly accept a deity created for you, that fits neatly into your you brain, something that is no larger than your comprehension. Hence every one who professes to worship Islam’s Allah is obviously greater than he.

Besides the concept of abrogation in the Koran proves that Allah is a being who resides in a linear time/space,(most likely a clever human who invented him)who makes a supposition on a situation, reveals a verse, and then clarifies it with another verse, to make things right.

If Islam was so logical, why is there so much confusion within it’s ranks. Allah’s message is chaos, that has divided Muslims into warring factions, each one out to annihilate the other. You being an Ahmediya Muslim should testify to this fact. Persecution of Ahmedis are a common place thing in places like Pakistan and India, while mainstream Islam have declared Ahmedis infidels. Where did you see the logic in that Islam?

Look all over the Muslim world, you will find that Muslims have no peace within themselves. Did you see any logic to 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, Basalaan, Mumbai, Boston, Fort Hood, and everyday ongoing jihad. Muslims are persecuting non-Muslims in every corner of the globe that they are in a sizable number. Where is the logic in that Islam?

Trojan: Sorry, I cannot follow your logic of how I am supposed to be an idol worshiper. Therefore I think we just have to follow the Quranic verse: “For you your religion and for me my religion”.

We do not believe that there is any such thing as ‘the concept of abrogation in the Qur’an’. It is a baseless concept that a minority of Muslims have invented (to the pleasure of people like you).

The situations that there is no peace in the Muslim world proves the fact that we need to follow the Promised Messiah and Mahdi, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, has has been appointed to lead the Muslims in this age. This Community is propagating Love for All and Hatred for None and peace will come to the Muslim world when they will follow this lead as commanded by Allah. We pray that this will happen rather sooner than later so that the suffering can end. (and in the meantime we also pray that non-Muslim nations stop taking advantage of the disunity of the ‘Muslim world’ to their own benefit).

Trojan

September 10, 2013 at 7:20 pm

Rafiq says “Trojan: Sorry, I cannot follow your logic of how I am supposed to be an idol worshiper…”

I’m sorry I did not mean to be so blunt, but think about what I said about God’s nature.

The human mind is in awe of the complexity of the universe, the outer space as well as the inner space. If the tiniest particle shows so much complexity within itself that it boggles the mind, why do you suppose the one who creates it all is so comprehensible?

I told you that if there is a God, he CANNOT be anything like his creation… yet Muslims confine Him into a oneness that is similar to a number found all over the universe.

I called you an idol worshipper because, even when you are shown the error of your thinking, in confining the infinite into a singularity that necessarily represents a created being, you are adamant in worshipping this same limited God who was an eternal despot.
you say ” ‘the concept of abrogation in the Qur’an’.

Really? then explain the relevance of this verse
[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them,

Now compare it with your Ahmediya motto of ” Love for all Hatred for none…”
Look at the two, they are poles apart, how can you live with such contradiction and yet call your religion logical is beyond me?

The Ahmediya motto stands in stark contrast of, and is a blatant disobedience of what Allah has revealed.

You say ” It is a baseless concept that a minority of Muslims have invented
Do you consider Allah to be one of the ‘minority’ you are referring to ? ? ?
[2.106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

I rest my case ! ! !
Consider yourself refuted on this point.

You say “(to the pleasure of people like you)….”
Well I have to admit, it was a pleasure bringing you out of the darkness of Islam.

Now you either refute my points or concede to it like an honest man and admit that you were wrong.

Trojan

September 10, 2013 at 7:32 pm

Rafiq,
if you have found something offensive in my response, then please let me know what it is by email so that I may edit it. but don’t simply delete it without responding to it.

This is blatant dishonesty and even goes against what the Koran teaches you that [2:256] “…truth stands out clear from error…”

Abdul Alim

September 10, 2013 at 8:14 pm

Trojan: Rafiq is really busy helping the Syrian refugees and practising love for all and hatred for none. What about you?
Meanwhile let me just state that we believe that God is comprehensible enough to know that He is incomprehensible. He is comprehensible enough to fall in love with wonderful awe. That is what matters. If you want to twist and play with words keep doing it if it makes you happy.
Please read the original Arabic text and not the translation of the verses you qoute. Try to read some detailed interpretations before you use it for building your argument. Arabic is a very rich language. Yes we believe that only absolute love exists all else is only relative to it. Good if you can visit your closest Ahmadiyya center to get a first hand explanation of the verse if you are serious about understanding Islam.
Dont be in a hurry to rest your case. We are all learning and that is the essence of this blog.

Jesus died for all humanity on the cross, rose again and will come again to judge the living and the dead.This is the gospel truth for all christians, but not muslims. They are taught that he never died on the cross, he was replaced by another person. But they believe that he will come again to judge everyone. They also believe that the whole world will then convert to Islam. I would like to ask my Muslim breathern to look around and pause for a minute. Muslims killing fellow muslim in the name of Allah. There is no peace in any of the muslim world and other countries wherever their presence is more than 5 percent. Can anyone imagine a crowd coming out of friday prayers and killing a fellow human being of another faith and praising Allah. Islam is growing fast not because of any attraction or admiration, but only because of high birth rates. Christianity on the other hand is spreading every nook and corner of the world because of love and effection and not hatred. Ultimately truth will prevail and the truth is Isa Masih died on the cross rose from the dead and will come again to judge the living and the dead.

God is God. I am a Christian and have been all my 55 years. I am a follower of Jesus, called the Christ who is my example and my guide. I have met very good men and women who are called Muslim. I have met false so-called Christians who were bad to their core. I believe because of my personal walk with my living God that my way is The Way. I believe that God loves every man, woman, and child that He has created. I believe that if adherents of each religion would live in the professed manner of their individual religion we would have a blessed and glorious world; however, because of selfishness and a lack of the love of God within the soul, many men are “lost” and following the enemy of good. I believe and wish that each person should accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour; however, I know enough of what my God teaches to know that He does not encourage nor condone hatred, violence, nor unforgiveness against anyone. If you are God’s child, you will have His Spirit living in your heart, and that Spirit will witness to others of His love and presence within you. This is the Law: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Salam, my dear Muslim “cousins.” My God bless you and keep you in peace always.

Trojan: All ‘Orientalists’, those somewhat in favor of Islam and even those not so, agree that the text of the Qur’an as we have it now is the same as the original one. All reputable historians – not blinded by blind faith – know that there is no similar ‘original text’ of the New Testament. Consequently it is now ‘belief against belief’ and has nothing to do with actual research. Goat eating the Qur’an? I don’t know where you got that from. Anyway, let’s agree to that verse of the Qur’an which says: “For you your religion and for me my religion”. Thanks for your understanding.

Mike Wyatt

September 17, 2013 at 11:53 pm

Nice one Bob…………Sincere and to the point.

Trojan

September 18, 2013 at 7:13 am

…

Still waiting for your answer on how Allah’s word and the Ahmediyya motto, compliment each other?

“Love for all, hatred for none”

vs

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

The verse that you quote is talking about aspects of defensive war. One has to read verses in fuller context, please.

If you would read what I have made bold in the verses, you will get the fullest context at a glance, if you are looking for the truth. If you are in search ways to contradict, then after a little discussion, we will have no choice but to moderate your comments.

First the verses of Sura Hajj, when defensive war was first allowed:

Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged — and Allah indeed has power to help them — Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah’ — And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft commemorated. And Allah will surely help one who helps Him. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty. (Al Quran 22:40-41)

Now, read the verses from Sura Baqara, which talk about peace options repeatedly:

And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.

And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (Al Quran 2:191-194)

The verse that you quote is from Sura Taubah. Read some of the other verses from the same Sura to appreciate the context:

Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous. (Al Quran 9:4)

How can there be a treaty of these idolaters with Allah and His Messenger, except those with whom you entered into a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? So, as long as they stand true to you, stand true to them. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous.

How can it be when, if they prevail against you, they would not observe any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of you? They would please you with their mouths, while their hearts refuse, and most of them are perfidious.

They barter the Signs of Allah for a paltry price and turn men away from His way. Evil indeed is that which they do.

They observe not any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of anyone who trusts them. And it is they who are transgressors. (Al Quran 9:7-10)

In the same Sura Taubah, Allah lays the blame squarely on the non-believers, for starting the war:

Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you? Do you fear them? Nay, Allah is most worthy that you should fear Him, if you are believers. (Al Quran 9:13)

The verse that you quote does not seem to have any application in present day social, religious and political context, when all the Muslim countries and the Muslims living in the West, through their respective countries are signatory of Universal Declaration of the Human Rights.

As long as the non-Muslims are abiding by such treaties the Muslims are duty bound to abide by the treaties. So, only risks to peace and law and order, in our global village, are extra-judicial killing and unilateral strikes on countries like Syria, without license from the United Nations general assembly.

Trojan

September 18, 2013 at 11:05 am

Zia says “The verse that you quote is talking about aspects of defensive war. One has to read verses in fuller context, please…If you would read what I have made bold in the verses, you will get the fullest context at a glance,”

Zia, Zia, Zia, My man, who do you think you are talking to? a novice?, who does not understand the kroan? I have been doing this for years now, and I understand the games Muslims like to play.

I appreciate your attempt in trying to rationalize your arguments with the age old “CONTEXT” thing, but you have twisted and squirmed like all Muslim apologist try to do.

You are quoting, highlighting and lecturing me on context of verses I never used. I used Surah [9:29]
Let us look at that verse and examine it carefully.

“[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

Now if you are honest enough not to delete this post, let us see what the context of this verse is…

Notice, Allah says in verse 29, that Muslims should fight with those who do not believe in Allah, now I wonder who Allah is talking to hmm, the logical thing for a context would be to go to the previous verse, and see what Allah says…

[9.28] O you who believe! , the idolaters are nothing but unclean , so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

So here is a context of [9:29] It has nothing to do with self defense in war, or all the other husk that you are trying to throw in… see it?

Well, now we have to examine who these so called idolaters are, so let’s go to the verse following the “marching orders for Muslims [9:29]” verse.

Let’s examine why Allah is telling Muslims to fight these people, what is their crime ? ? ?

well here is your answer from the following verse.

“[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”

Ah ha! so this is the actual “CONTEXT” of [9:29]
So you see the verse that I quoted, and said was diametrically opposing to the Ahmediyya motto, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any kind of “aspects of defensive warfare” The context of the verse is Muslims must fight unbelievers, especially Jews and Christians, not because they are at war with Muslims, NO! On the contrary, it is clearly telling Muslims to fight and forcefully make them submit (become Muslim) because of what they believe in. and if they oppose, well the they (J&Cs) should be subjected to humiliation and pay a Jiziyah tax.

So I have once again refuted your attempt to harmonize two opposing doctrines, One teaches to fight,humiliate and subjugate, while the other teaches to love all and hate none.

Trojan I have made a good case from the Holy Quran for the open minded people.

It seems to me that you will keep arguing until cows come home and perhaps, not agree, even if God came down to explain to you.

For other readers I want to say that India was a Hindu majority country after 1000 years of the Muslim rule, what could not be said about Europe after a thousand year of the Christian rule, as all the pagans were converted on the point of sword and no Muslim was allowed in Europe for almost three centuries after 1492 fall of Spain, in the Christian hands.

Let me link an article and a volume of Muslim Sunrise, the oldest Muslim publication of North America, for those, who would like to learn further:

Zia says “Trojan I have made a good case from the Holy Quran for the open minded people…”

What open mindedness are you talking about if you do not accept the truth. You are providing misinformation, and I corrected you… Did you even bother to read my response?

Wow! It is obvious, that no matter what strain of Islam one practices, Taqiyya comes as a package deal.

Zia says ” It seems to me that you will keep arguing until cows come home and perhaps, not agree, even if God came down to explain to you…”

Why should I agree? do you see any logic in it? I can’t believe you are being so obtuse. You asked for CONTEXT of [9:29] I provided it to you, which is NOT defensive warfare as you claim, but killing of infidels, simply because they do not submit, plain and simple…

Zia says and perhaps, “…not agree, even if God came down to explain to you…”

And in fact He did, in the person of Jesus Christ, and warned us about false prophets …

Please read:
Mathew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

Trojan we agree to disagree and I have almost given you, the last word in this thread, regarding the verses of the Holy Quran about defensive war, as I believe, who ever will carefully read the comments and links above, can be potentially guided to the truth.

As regards Jesus’ prediction about fruits of trees, please go to the following post:

Why you should convert from Christianity to Islam: Good question and I hope many readers will ‘pop in’ with some hints. Let me cover it from the point of view of logic: From the beginning of time God the Creator of all things kept in touch with humanity through Prophets. The Jews believe that but think that 3000 years ago this communication ended. The Christians believe that but 2000 years ago the communication ended. Islam was in fact the ‘natural progression’. The Prophet Mohammad, peace be on him, came 1400 years ago and brought the final book, revealed by the same God the Creator of us all. And HE continues to keep in touch with us. During the last 1400 years every 100 years there came a ‘guided one’. And 125 years ago came the Imam Mahdi and Messiah, followed by his Khalifas. Therefore Islam is alive and well. See: http://www.alislam.org for more information on the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi and the present Khalifa. – Yes, the so-called Muslim world is not in good shape just now, because most of them are not yet following the Khalifa of this time. We invite you to join us to follow the Khalifa of this time and help us to get things right.

bukhary ibraheem

June 16, 2014 at 3:41 am

Bismillahir rahamanir raheem.
The only religion to be accept in the hereafter is ISLAM, and Islam is the most fastest growing religion in the world, and history shows us that there is no a Single Muslim scholar that had ever convert to Christianity.

From TRojan, Sept 8, 2013:
[The Christian understanding of God is far from simple it is something that not even a Christian can easily explain…..

However, when Christians say they worship ONE God, they truly mean what they say…. There are in essence One, however NOT the kind of ONE we find in our created universe, but a more complex ONE, that our finite minds will never be able to comprehend.

I don’t expect to convince you, however at least make an attempt to understand that the Christians are in NO way asserting partners to God, simply because God, as revealed to us by Jesus Christ, Is a UNITY of persons that cannot be Quantified, in our finite universal terms. ]

The above was part of the long post from Trojan, something which Trojan admits even the Christians cannot understand!!! Then why to go after such a complex God?? There is no news about such a God/son relation in BibleOT or the Quran. Church cannot explain how Jesus was begotten, whether he existed before or after the father or co-existed, both father and son at the same time??

Bob Anders

October 6, 2014 at 5:28 pm

Love how the argument was taken out of course towards the end, with a blanket statement. Peace be with all.

Trojan (Sept 18 2013) was talking about false prophets and bad tree. Paul was the false prophet for the Christians who reversed all the teaching of Jesus Christ a.s. i.e. away with circumcision and belief in One God, away with sabath, away with repentance, away with good deeds. He produced his own gospel which is different to the gospel of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
Now about the tree. What bad deeds were done by the Christians in the past 1500 years, the way they fought each other. We must not forget the bloody Mary, Queen of Scotland. Also not to forget the church persecuting Galileo, the famous scientist and engineer.
The latest work of Christian powers was the enslavement of the poor black people of Afrika. Was that any defensive work? Trojans please understand. The harsh verses of the Quran are against the fanatic, hostile persons of any faith. they are called Kafir. they may be found in Muslims or Hindus or Jews or Christians.
Islam does allow any one to offer the other cheek to every fanatic person for all times. Islam allows defensive measures to save weak humans from persecution. Islam also allows freedom of thought, freedom of beliefs. Islam even allows fighting to protect freedom of conscience.