Is Simon going to run a 4.4 forty time? No. Does he fit the Clemons/Irvin mold. Not quite. That said, Simon's tape screams Chris Long. A less athletic, LEO version. Both have long, powerful arms and are outstanding at shedding blocks and display an excellent repertoire of pass rush moves. Simon has excellent leadership/intangibles and is a natural leader of his defense. Quite frankly, I am kind of blown away that he's not up there with at least Bjoern Werner in the pass rusher discussion. Or as a MTD commenter aptly put it:

Simon’s shortcomings are well known, listed at 6-2 and 263, this average athlete continues to make better athletes look average. I believe you are looking at a 4th round steal.

Here is an article on Simon from earlier this year that I thought contained an interesting nugget:

John Simon is an enigma. He's a big-time hustle player and the unquestioned leader of Ohio State's defense. Simon led Ohio State in tackles for loss (16) and sacks (7) as a junior. During spring practice this year, Simon was playing so much better than everyone that coaches took him off the field. Simon has quickly become a favorite of Urban Meyer. The new OSU head coach has spoken glowingly of Simon's toughness, leadership and character, comparing him to Tim Tebow.

Also similar to Tebow, it's somewhat unclear how Simon will translate to the NFL. It's uncommon to see successful 6-foot2, 270-pound defensive linemen in the NFL. Simon also doesn't look to have the natural athleticism to simply shift out to linebacker. Simon may need to be utilized as he is at OSU as a hybrid Leo-style defender.

Simon comes from a defense that utilizes him in a LEO type role. That's a plus for Seattle when looking for pass rushers out of college, because you get a better idea of how they'd handle the role, while the LEO label could hurt his stock with other teams that use a more traditional end and allow Simon to fall further than his talent deserves.

The one common complaint against Simon is his height (6'2"). For reference, Chris Long is 6'3". Chris Clemons is 6'3". Bruce Irvin is 6'3". Melvin Ingram, who ranked high on Seattle's draft board last year and was a mid-1st round pick, was 6'1".

The reason height matters for defensive ends is mainly because more height tends to equate to greater arm length. I don't know what his arms will measure at, but they look plenty long enough on tape. 34" arms would not surprise me.

My only complaint for Simon is his average speed, and Pete seems to prefer burners at DE. However, if he can get over that, Simon is a player that can create pressure almost immediately on a very high percentage of his snaps. Chris Clemons probably won't be the same guy next year, but Simon could really soften that blow. He also has the kind of drive and intangibles that this regime is always looking for.

Last edited by kearly on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Solid by LEO standards. Probably not by traditional standards. Sheds well, strong against single blocks, but he can be run around in open space. Not quite as good as Clemons, but WAY better than Irvin.

Solid by LEO standards. Probably not by traditional standards. Sheds well, strong against single blocks, but he can be run around in open space. Not quite as good as Clemons, but WAY better than Irvin.

That sucks It's almost seeming like Clemons is the ideal LEO, and that mofo is 31..... Simon is at least a better pass rusher than Clem, right?

And where would Simon go? 1st? Or could we nab him with a lower round pick while picking up, say, a DT earlier?

Here's a sleeper late round pick for you. Quanterus Smith, from Western Kentucky. 6'5", 249. Holds the Sunbelt conference record for most career sacks (ahead of Osi Umenyiora and Demarcus Ware. Doesnt have the suddenness of a Bruce Irvin but his tape looks pretty good. Tore his ACL as a senior so he can probably had in the 6th or 7th round. Looks like a Pete Carroll/John Schneider from out of nowhere find to me.

And he can do it against good competition, here he is against Alabama going up against DJ Fluker who I believe is projected as a 1st round pick:

And his complete game against Arkansas State. Keep in mind Arkansas STate has a pretty good offense (24th in the country yardage wise) .

hawksfan515 wrote:That sucks It's almost seeming like Clemons is the ideal LEO, and that mofo is 31..... Simon is at least a better pass rusher than Clem, right?

And where would Simon go? 1st? Or could we nab him with a lower round pick while picking up, say, a DT earlier?

No disrespect, but I think these topics work better if you just watch the video. You can basically answer a lot of questions in very little time just by watching. Besides, you should never take someone else's word as gospel when it comes to the draft. Better to self-educate.

Anyway, Simon is a different kind of player than Clemons in most ways. I still think he's pretty darn good though, and he seems like a very natural fit for the LEO, especially if Pete is willing to go with less than 4.4 speed. Simon is more quick than fast.

I'm interested in Brandon Moore, DT Texas as a late round pick. He looked pretty good in limited playing time and is 6'5" 320#. I noticed him (97) while watching Okafor. Looks pretty light on his feet, quick, gets some good push and chases down plays.

Sylvester Williams on the other hand looks sluggish and unbalanced. Dude ends up on the ground way too much.

hawksfan515 wrote:That sucks It's almost seeming like Clemons is the ideal LEO, and that mofo is 31..... Simon is at least a better pass rusher than Clem, right?

And where would Simon go? 1st? Or could we nab him with a lower round pick while picking up, say, a DT earlier?

No disrespect, but I think these topics work better if you just watch the video. You can basically answer a lot of questions in very little time just by watching. Besides, you should never take someone else's word as gospel when it comes to the draft. Better to self-educate.

Anyway, Simon is a different kind of player than Clemons in most ways. I still think he's pretty darn good though, and he seems like a very natural fit for the LEO, especially if Pete is willing to go with less than 4.4 speed. Simon is more quick than fast.

I took your advice and watched the video. Simon didn't even really seem quick to me, honestly..... I wouldn't give him any chance of chasing down a Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, mobile QB in the backfield. The only speed rush i saw seemed to be right before the end of the video ( 4:50 ), and even though it looked good he just feels like an overachiever due to me. I think I might be a little more high on him if he runs a good 10 yard split or shows decent measurables at the combine.

Have you guys checked out margus Hunt. He is raw but most of the guys we are showing around he are beating one guy or RB blocks. Margus is all over the line DT DE NT and beating triple teams, thats not a joke. Yeah he is raw as hell and played lesser teams but if he can beet a lesser triple team, I would bet he can beet a Tackle. Just screams PC JS to me. As a Leo or DT Not sure, as an absolute terror to block, yes!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNUN-Sq ... =endscreen

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

He might end up being our LEO but I sure as hell wouldn't bank the farm on that. I have my doubts that he will ever be big and strong enough to hold up against the run. My guess is he will be a career long situational pass rusher and backup LEO.

I would say we are more looking for a pass rush, and Bruce is fine but we need more a dominate DT and another edge rusher and a beastly replacement for Hill, Clem’s great but he is going to be long in the tooth soon and I would like it if we found his replacement or Irvin’s when he goes to LEO while we have tons of picks and only a pound of needs. I would not be surprised if we picked 2 Ends and a tackle or took two ends signed a tackle and still drafted one. Bruce is great as a situational pass rusher as of now but he has to totally sell out to be effective against the run, hopefully he gets out an learns this in the off season and comes back with some shedding ability. also Jones and Branch are FA. Which to me that means we basically got Mebane, so let’s get it handled while it’s a luxury not a dire need.

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

Irvin will probably excel in Brock's former role, though. I'm hopeful Irvin can work on technique and nab the position, but even if he's only seeing snaps on passing downs and he's always getting pressure for us with another LEO causing pressure and our DTs working the center and guards over, that'll be a great defensive package.

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

So you want to go into next season with Irvin being the only LEO on the roster? You don't think we could benefit from adding another LEO maybe a bit stronger than Irvin who could be a better run stopper to rep in and out with? You honestly think Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster...?

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

So you want to go into next season with Irvin being the only LEO on the roster? You don't think we could benefit from adding another LEO maybe a bit stronger than Irvin who could be a better run stopper to rep in and out with? You honestly think Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster...?

Thats not what was being talked about in this thread, if it is and its just adding depth behind Bruce...then Im all for depth in case Bruce goes down.

1) Did I say he should be the only LEO? When I see "answer at LEO" I assume the OP doesn't feel we have one now.2) Did I say we couldn't benefit from depth?3) Did I say Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster?

Last edited by ImTheScientist on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

The only thing still giving me confidence in the fact that Irvin can be our LEO is that Carroll said so and JS picked him. Other than that, Kearly said that Irvin isn't built to be a LEO, and so far he's right. I'm leaning towards Kearly's side here...

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

The only thing still giving me confidence in the fact that Irvin can be our LEO is that Carroll said so and JS picked him. Other than that, Kearly said that Irvin isn't built to be a LEO, and so far he's right. I'm leaning towards Kearly's side here...

I disagree. Look at the definition of the LEO position per Pete Carroll. He has flat out said Irvin fits the mold. When did Kearly say Irvin isn't built to be a LEO? LINK?

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

The only thing still giving me confidence in the fact that Irvin can be our LEO is that Carroll said so and JS picked him. Other than that, Kearly said that Irvin isn't built to be a LEO, and so far he's right. I'm leaning towards Kearly's side here...

I disagree. Look at the definition of the LEO position per Pete Carroll. He has flat out said Irvin fits the mold. When did Kearly say Irvin isn't built to be a LEO? LINK?

Based on one game? Do you have data to back that up that is WAS BRUCE? Id be willing to bet the run defense was not good at all from anyone on the D-line Sunday.

Well OK fine. Everyone played really bad run defense, and you know what they also played? Really bad pass defense, IE pass rush. They flat out sucked.

You wanna take a guess what Irvin was supposed to be good at? Pass rush. You want to guess what he was good at yesterday? NOTHING.

Look, I am all for the "he's a rookie" argument, but what happens when our main source of pass rush (the LEO position) is manned by Irvin week 1, and he hasn't made improvement, while Clem is still sidelined? What happens then??? We just live with no pass rush or run D?

Where there's smoke there's fire. Let's not ignore it and at least address it.. If Irvin turns out to be a baller than we have a nice backup LEO.

(BTW, PC said we need multiple pass rushers. Not just 1. There's 4 spots on the line, and I am positive Mebane is staying. So...... that means likely 3 spots are in turmoil)

T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

So you want to go into next season with Irvin being the only LEO on the roster? You don't think we could benefit from adding another LEO maybe a bit stronger than Irvin who could be a better run stopper to rep in and out with? You honestly think Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster...?

Thats not what was being talked about in this thread, if it is and its just adding depth behind Bruce...then Im all for depth in case Bruce goes down.

1) Did I say he should be the only LEO? When I see "answer at LEO" I assume the OP doesn't feel we have one now.2) Did I say we couldn't benefit from depth?3) Did I say Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster?

What?! It's not about depth...was Clemons the only DE on the field during the year? Do you think Irvin's 8 sacks came when Clemons was on or off the field?

"We don't even need your stupid a-- that much. We can win Super Bowls with retired Kerry f------- Collins right now, and you want to be the highest paid player of all-time? F--- you." - Tical21 to Russell Wilson, 6/30/15

Sizzle, for the record I was one of the very first people on the Irvin bandwagon. This time last year people on this board where asking who the best pass rusher was, almost everyone gave an answer like Ingram or McClellin or Jones or Branch or Upshaw. I might have been the only person who said Irvin was the best pure pass rusher in the draft, and I even said that I didn't even think it was that close. I still thought Irvin would probably go in the 3rd round though, and I hoped and pined very publicly that the Seahawks would find a way to take him in the 3rd round round range. When Seattle took him in round 1, all the Seahawks fans around me groaned, but I was stoked and told everyone around me they would love the pick.

That said, even as one of Irvin's very biggest fans before the draft, even then I knew that he wasn't a LEO. He has to completely sell out vs. the run and even when he does that he's below average. Not only that, but Irvin's pass rush pretty much requires him to sell out the other way, attacking the edge mercilessly without delaying a moment. He's a classic situational rusher. He has the potential to reach Clemons size, but if he did, he would probably lose that extra tenth of a second on his 40 time that makes him special. Even if he was heavier, he does not have good technique and he's not young.

It is very obvious that his future is at the Raheem Brock role, and after watching him the entire falcons game as it happened, I am more convinced of this than ever. It's more than the Falcons game, btw. Irvin has not looked good in a 3 down role all season, the only exception was the 4th quarter of the Skins game, but that has an asterisk on it because Seattle was blitzing on almost every play.

I've been wrong before, but I don't think I'll be wrong here. There is a reason why Pete said "pass rushers" in the plurar form.

Great post Kearly. Pete was about as harsh on player as I have ever heard him after a game. When asked about irvin's performance he basically said the didn't even see Irvin out there. Ouch. Then in the same breath he says we need 2 pass rushers in the draft/offseason. Irvin could really benefit from some solid inside pass rush.

T-siz, Irvin stinks as the LEO. even his 4 point stance is awful for a player doing anything but selling out to pass rush. He played half the snaps Pete hoped he would, because he can't stop the run. Watch the coaches tape vs Atlanta, he got his ass handed to him in the run. He cannot anchor when he is the point of attack, pure and simple. I think it is worth noting that Clem was a 235 pound linebacker when he came to the draft, and his time in college as a backer has undoubtedly been a big help in him playing the run as a DE. Those are the instincts I don't see in Irvin. Maybe linebacker is where they will find the next LEO.

Kip, Simon looks to me like an undersized pass rush DT, like Clinton McDonald or that kid from Iowa that went to Tennessee. He would be bad at the Seattle LEO spot because he is a short area guy only. 515 pointed out what a guy like Kaepernick could do to him. Simon starts trotting when he is out of the play, even he knows he isn't going to get there. I saw Clemons chase Kaepernick down from behind, I don't see Simon ever doing that. It isn't just speed, Pete ahs said that the Leo guy might be the best athlete on the defense.

I would love him to play him at a pass rushing DT spot after he puts on 20. He is a small space technician who moves past guards almost at will. and gets so much leverage that he kind of reminds me of Clinton McDonald. Even though Simon isn't huge, he looks to me like he could school plodding guards.

Margus looks good in that video, but his legs are kinda skinny. I can see him having anchor issues too. Quanterus Smith? I liked him, but once again, does he have the speed?

JSeahawks wrote:Here's a sleeper late round pick for you. Quanterus Smith, from Western Kentucky. 6'5", 249. Holds the Sunbelt conference record for most career sacks (ahead of Osi Umenyiora and Demarcus Ware. Doesnt have the suddenness of a Bruce Irvin but his tape looks pretty good. Tore his ACL as a senior so he can probably had in the 6th or 7th round. Looks like a Pete Carroll/John Schneider from out of nowhere find to me.

And he can do it against good competition, here he is against Alabama going up against DJ Fluker who I believe is projected as a 1st round pick:

And his complete game against Arkansas State. Keep in mind Arkansas STate has a pretty good offense (24th in the country yardage wise) .

Wow, pretty impressive player. I hope we take 3 DLmen in this draft to supplement what we already have.

Scottemojo wrote:Kip, Simon looks to me like an undersized pass rush DT, like Clinton McDonald or that kid from Iowa that went to Tennessee. He would be bad at the Seattle LEO spot because he is a short area guy only. 515 pointed out what a guy like Kaepernick could do to him. Simon starts trotting when he is out of the play, even he knows he isn't going to get there. I saw Clemons chase Kaepernick down from behind, I don't see Simon ever doing that. It isn't just speed, Pete ahs said that the Leo guy might be the best athlete on the defense.

Yup, speed is a problem. For 10 weeks out of the season, I don't think it would factor much. But against Kaepernick, Newton, Locker, Freeman, etc, yeah, Seattle would need to compensate.

I can't really see Simon as a DT with his run defense, but I can see why you like him as an interior pass rusher.