(01-02-2017 11:29 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: On the far left there is communism, great on paper terrible in practice, Stalin proved that. On the far right there is fascism, Hitler, enough said. How is world history not on my side? Just rebutting my argument isn't enough to prove your point you have to put up a counterargument. Please do, I'd like to hear your perspective.

You know that there was no communism in practice? Countries of Soviet bloc were in state of building communism and/or they achieved "really existing socialism" like USSR in Brezhnev times. Communism was something to be achieved in far future, or in case of Poland never as it stopped journey to it before even big brother did (1956). Also there is nothing great in communism even in theory - Marx vision was to replace "anarchy of market" with rational plan; there was no room for liberalism in his utopia. [Andrzej Walicki, From the Communist Project to the Neoliberal Utopia, Kraków 2013 edition].

Also I'm not sure about conflating fascism with nazism - latter was different in it's anti-semitic aspect, eugenics theme and specifically German volkisch theme.

About your argument - both sides had their extremes, but in no way you proved that somewhere in the middle is best position. You just asserted it.

Turns out I didn't know there wasn't any communism in practice, guess you can blame that on my american education (although government and politics were never my strongest field). However that does support it being terrible in practice if it couldn't even get of the ground. As to your second point "there is nothing great in communism even in theory", yes I agree with you; perhaps great wasn't the best word to use in that sentence. When I said great, I misspoke. What I meant by great was any positive characteristics (if any) self-identifying communist see in such a system.

As to fascism and nazism, yes the two are not interchangeable, but nazism is a subcategory of fascism since one needs the other to exist first (it's hard for nazism to work without a dictatorship).

And to your last counterargument, You're right, I did just assert it. Just because X and Y are bad, doesn't mean Z is good. Fair enough. But I'm still going to stick with my democratic republic because it corrects itself when it's wrong.

The truth remains true even after you question it. Funny how religions don't want you questioning them.

(01-02-2017 11:29 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: On the far left there is communism, great on paper terrible in practice, Stalin proved that. On the far right there is fascism, Hitler, enough said. How is world history not on my side? Just rebutting my argument isn't enough to prove your point you have to put up a counterargument. Please do, I'd like to hear your perspective.

Are you arguing that Trump is not that bad, or are you just being ridiculously pedantic over terms?

I am being pedantic, and yes Trump is not as bad as Hitler. The day he sends citizens to concentration camps or proactively invades a country, I will spin on a fucking dime, come crawling back to you and say "you were right".

The truth remains true even after you question it. Funny how religions don't want you questioning them.

(01-02-2017 11:29 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: On the far left there is communism, great on paper terrible in practice, Stalin proved that. On the far right there is fascism, Hitler, enough said. How is world history not on my side? Just rebutting my argument isn't enough to prove your point you have to put up a counterargument. Please do, I'd like to hear your perspective.

We view history along differing time frames. I look at it by groups of 500 years. You are talking about one century.

To me that is nothing.

After the agricultural revolution, slave trade, emancipation proclamation, industrial revolution, both world wars, and the atomic age, much of ancient history can't be compared to modern civilization. So yes, I am talking about the latest century.

The truth remains true even after you question it. Funny how religions don't want you questioning them.

(02-02-2017 02:54 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: Turns out I didn't know there wasn't any communism in practice, guess you can blame that on my american education (although government and politics were never my strongest field).

It's easy thing to be not aware of as Soviet bloc sometimes is described as communist. I too sometimes speak of communist countries.

Quote:However that does support it being terrible in practice if it couldn't even get of the ground. As to your second point "there is nothing great in communism even in theory", yes I agree with you; perhaps great wasn't the best word to use in that sentence. When I said great, I misspoke. What I meant by great was any positive characteristics (if any) self-identifying communist see in such a system.

I quite often hear that communism was great in theory yet never I heard convincing argument for said greatness. Marx might have been good critic of capitalism, but it does not mean that all his ideas were great.

Self-identifying communist or maybe rather marxist would I imagine seen many good things in such utopia.

Quote:As to fascism and nazism, yes the two are not interchangeable, but nazism is a subcategory of fascism since one needs the other to exist first (it's hard for nazism to work without a dictatorship).

But dictatorship isn't necessarily fascist. For me fascism is word used to describe Mussolini Italy or catch all term for dictators and their works. Nazism is word pertaining to state of affairs in Hitler Germany. I'm aware that some say that nazism is subcategory of fascism but I don't agree with it. It's a minor quibble though, and kinda meaningless.

Quote:And to your last counterargument, You're right, I did just assert it. Just because X and Y are bad, doesn't mean Z is good. Fair enough. But I'm still going to stick with my democratic republic because it corrects itself when it's wrong.

If I were to use only vague terms I would say that I prefer country leaning to the left, maybe even heavily. Also I doubt that there is best option, rather there is multitude of good and bad options and there is no universal recipe for success - what work for one country may not work for other, or work worse.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

(02-02-2017 04:09 AM)morondog Wrote: Are you arguing that Trump is not that bad, or are you just being ridiculously pedantic over terms?

I am being pedantic, and yes Trump is not as bad as Hitler. The day he sends citizens to concentration camps or proactively invades a country, I will spin on a fucking dime, come crawling back to you and say "you were right".

He hasn't done it yet, so the fact that so much of what he does echoes uncomfortably with Hitler's rhetoric doesn't bother you in the slightest?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(02-02-2017 03:03 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: I am being pedantic, and yes Trump is not as bad as Hitler. The day he sends citizens to concentration camps or proactively invades a country, I will spin on a fucking dime, come crawling back to you and say "you were right".

He hasn't done it yet, so the fact that so much of what he does echoes uncomfortably with Hitler's rhetoric doesn't bother you in the slightest?

When you look at all the similarities and ignore all the differences, that is a form of confirmation bias. I try to avoid that. But like I said, I in no way will defend him if he does cross the line.

The truth remains true even after you question it. Funny how religions don't want you questioning them.

(02-02-2017 03:03 PM)BrianChariott Wrote: I am being pedantic, and yes Trump is not as bad as Hitler. The day he sends citizens to concentration camps or proactively invades a country, I will spin on a fucking dime, come crawling back to you and say "you were right".

He hasn't done it yet, so the fact that so much of what he does echoes uncomfortably with Hitler's rhetoric doesn't bother you in the slightest?

Isn't it more like a generic dictator rhetoric?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Trump shows no anti-semitism as far as I know and making x great again isn't unique to Hitler or maybe even to dictators. For me he is more like a Mussolini who for all his clownishness still could be dangerous. Still mostly I think that he is average "Joe populist"

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.