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- Rythmik F12SE (370W RMS, 14Hz @ -2dB). Most of Rythmik's subs seem to extend to 14Hz @ -2dB. Not sure how/why that is. I'm surprised that it's spec'd to dig that much deeper than the SB12-NSD. That said, Rythmik's subs are well-regarded.

I'd pass on all the subs except for the last two, and my choice would be the SB12-NSD.

But if you're tending toward the Rythmik, and since you're looking at ~$1K for the F12SE, you might want to consider the F15 instead (370W RMS, 14Hz @ -2dB). If I'm not mistaken, it will provide greater overall output than the F12SE.

These specs don't mean too much without output. 14Hz @ -2db means nothing if that is at 70db. I am exaggerating to make a point. Also, at that price range I would focus at getting clean dynamic sound at 20Hz and above (if not higher) or go DYI. 14Hz is great, but at a cost and still, not enough movies have it in their soundtracks to make it worth it for the masses.

I would go with the Rythmik from that bunch, however it won't be doing 14 hz appreciably. And none of those are going to have much output below 30 hz, unless your room really boosts the low frequencies. Another sub you should consider is the Aperion Bravus 12d. It's roughly the same size and price as the others you listed, but it will have more output than any of those subs from the mid 20 hz range on up. It almost matches the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX in mid bass ie around the 50 hz region, and nothing else on that list is going to come close to that kind of output. With your size restriction, that is what I would go for.

Im geting solid extension down to 14hz (115db)with 2 PSA XV15's... they are clean, musical, and I have yet to hear any port chuffing. killer sub for the money imo..and they are not that big for a 15" sub.

Im geting solid extension down to 14hz (115db)with 2 PSA XV15's... they are clean, musical, and I have yet to hear any port chuffing. killer sub for the money imo..and they are not that big for a 15" sub.

Im geting solid extension down to 14hz (115db)with 2 PSA XV15's... they are clean, musical, and I have yet to hear any port chuffing. killer sub for the money imo..and they are not that big for a 15" sub.

How is that being measured?

Based off the numbers over at data-bass, even factoring in substantial room gain and two non-colated subs, 115dB@14hz seems unobtainable considering it is well below the tune of the XV15.

Based off the numbers over at data-bass, even factoring in substantial room gain and two non-colated subs, 115dB@14hz seems unobtainable considering it is well below the tune of the XV15.

Are you able to measure with REW and do maximum output sweeps?

i was using my spl meter playin a bass cd that does frequency sweeps. I use REW all the time, here is a graph of my xv15's. not too terrible for no eq'ing or room treatments. however i made a typo, the 115db was not at 14hz, i meant that was the extension im getting with room gain factored. i hit 125db at 30hz according to my spl meter. you will have to excuse my typos and constant edited posts...as i always post from my note 2. my big thumbs make lots of mistakes lol.

i was using my spl meter playin a bass cd that does frequency sweeps. I use REW all the time, here is a graph of my xv15's. not too terrible for no eq'ing or room treatments. however i made a typo, the 115db was not at 14hz, i meant that was the extension im getting with room gain factored. i hit 125db at 30hz according to my spl meter. you will have to excuse my typos and constant edited posts...as i always post from my note 2. my big thumbs make lots of mistakes lol.

Thanks for that.

Hitting 125dB at 30hz is not surprising considering you have a uncorrected +15dB peak (relative to the other frequencies) around that frequency. If your response was flat more or less, you would instead be reading a 110dB (give a few more dB if that is not at max output).

I don't mean to harp on this or single you out, it is just that other people might have unrealistic expectations of the XV15 if they see you posting numbers like '115dB@14hz in-room'. Hitting that sort of SPL at that frequency, even in-room, is very difficult to achieve with a flat response.

- Rythmik F12SE (370W RMS, 14Hz @ -2dB). Most of Rythmik's subs seem to extend to 14Hz @ -2dB. Not sure how/why that is. I'm surprised that it's spec'd to dig that much deeper than the SB12-NSD. That said, Rythmik's subs are well-regarded.

I'd pass on all the subs except for the last two, and my choice would be the SB12-NSD.

But if you're tending toward the Rythmik, and since you're looking at ~$1K for the F12SE, you might want to consider the F15 instead (370W RMS, 14Hz @ -2dB). If I'm not mistaken, it will provide greater overall output than the F12SE.

Hitting 125dB at 30hz is not surprising considering you have a uncorrected +15dB peak (relative to the other frequencies) around that frequency. If your response was flat more or less, you would instead be reading a 110dB (give a few more dB if that is not at max output).

I don't mean to harp on this or single you out, it is just that other people might have unrealistic expectations of the XV15 if they see you posting numbers like '115dB@14hz in-room'. Hitting that sort of SPL at that frequency, even in-room, is very difficult to achieve with a flat response.

how many rooms produce a flat response? without serious effort(room treatments and eq'ing) it is almost impossible. these subs peak output is at 50hz...i was not pushing them to thier limits. they have way more output then 110db. Tom even said both subs combined should hit 127-130db. when i get more time ill do some testing at lower frequencies and report back.

The only way to tell for sure is to run a sine sweep and see where it starts to compress. What this does is show you how flat you are from say 10hz to 100hz at 90 dBs but turn that up to 110 dBs and you will see the lower frequencies at some point stop getting higher and the the upper bass still increasing. Where you compress on the low end is your max even though you have more headroom above 20hz. This is why subs incorporate HP filters. Here is an example of compression sweeps with my F-20's I had.

I raised the volume in increments of 5 dBs each time and it raised 5 dBs each time so no compression and low THD at the highest level. Actually there is probably a little compression at the 18-19hz range as it is not raising 5 dBs. So these subs were clean to 8hz at this level without EQ. Now without EQ these are not flat to 8hz but can hit 110 dBs at 8hz in my room. Without running the sweeps I could have thought my subs hit 122 dBs at 8hz because at 110 dBs it was flat to 8hz so I thought I was flat to 8hz. Well, not to max output I am not. I am either flat to 8hz at 110 dBs or flat to 20hz at 122 dBs, can't have both from this set of subs. Oh yeah, this had a 80hz crossover as well.

how many rooms produce a flat response? without serious effort(room treatments and eq'ing) it is almost impossible. these subs peak output is at 50hz...i was not pushing them to thier limits. they have way more output then 110db. Tom even said both subs combined should hit 127-130db. when i get more time ill do some testing at lower frequencies and report back.

Certainly achieving a relatively flat response is somewhat challenging, but by no means impossible with dual subs, optimal placement and some EQ'ing.

If you have an untamed room mode which is giving you a +15dB gain at ~30hz, I'm sure you might be able to hit ~127-130dB... but without it, you simply won't get close. If you were to EQ that massive peak, which would level out your response (more or less), then you would be able to obtain proper maximum levels... otherwise you're just predominately measuring your room modes. Of course, I'm not taking into account how far you are from the both subs, but again I'd simply say that hitting ~127-130dB is nigh on impossible to do so cleanly without a ton of distortion.

As MKtheater said: "Where you compress on the low end is your max even though you have more headroom above 20hz". My SubM's start compressing in-room in the low 20's on a 110dB sweep so that is my max output before serious compression even though I know I have a lot more headroom above ~40Hz.

Certainly achieving a relatively flat response is somewhat challenging, but by no means impossible with dual subs, optimal placement and some EQ'ing.

If you have an untamed room mode which is giving you a +15dB gain at ~30hz, I'm sure you might be able to hit ~127-130dB... but without it, you simply won't get close. If you were to EQ that massive peak, which would level out your response (more or less), then you would be able to obtain proper maximum levels... otherwise you're just predominately measuring your room modes. Of course, I'm not taking into account how far you are from the both subs, but again I'd simply say that hitting ~127-130dB is nigh on impossible to do so cleanly without a ton of distortion.

As MKtheater said: "Where you compress on the low end is your max even though you have more headroom above 20hz". My SubM's start compressing in-room in the low 20's on a 110dB sweep so that is my max output before serious compression even though I know I have a lot more headroom above ~40Hz.

Agreed! This is exactly why so many of us run multiples. Once we achieve the extension desired we add more for the spl to not compress at that frequency. In my case with the F-20's I could have said(without sweeps) I can hit 122 dBs and I am flat at 8hz which both are true, just not at the same time.

Agreed! This is exactly why so many of us run multiples. Once we achieve the extension desired we add more for the spl to not compress at that frequency. In my case with the F-20's I could have said(without sweeps) I can hit 122 dBs and I am flat at 8hz which both are true, just not at the same time.

+1 Exactly... perfectly succinct.

So, in regards to the topic, when a sub has a response to 14hz or someone claims to be able to 'hit 122dB', the only relevant questions IMO are at what SPL and at what frequency, respectively.

So, in regards to the topic, when a sub has a response to 14hz or someone claims to be able to 'hit 122dB', the only relevant questions IMO are at what SPL and at what frequency, respectively.

Again, correct. My 4 F-20 subs which are huge 20hz tuned folded horns hit 122 dBs at 20hz with 10% THD, 110 dBs at 10hz. Now this is 4 15's horn loaded in my 2100 cubic foot room so I also have a hard time seeing dual PSA XV-15 hit 127 dBs or more. Are we talking at the LP or at the subs? I am talking at the LP where it matters.

So what I did was go multiple sealed so I could hit 122 dBs at 10hz. Cost more but getting high spl down low does. Actually I can hit that at 6hz as well now.

In regards to the OP, hitting 14 Hz is not needed unless he is into a lot of pipe organ music and for bass, something that is good between 25-80 Hz will do the job. Is 14 Hz needed for Ht., no, something that can hit 20 Hz will do a great job. He does not have a large space to fill. The old argument that there is a lot of music sub 30 Hz is bogus. Most of what is being hear is the 2nd harmonic at 60 Hz as an example. Few musical instruments 1st octave are below 40 Hz. For his purpose, a Premiere Acoustic PA 150 may be overkill.

In regards to the OP, hitting 14 Hz is not needed unless he is into a lot of pipe organ music and for bass, something that is good between 25-80 Hz will do the job. Is 14 Hz needed for Ht., no, something that can hit 20 Hz will do a great job. He does not have a large space to fill. The old argument that there is a lot of music sub 30 Hz is bogus. Most of what is being hear is the 2nd harmonic at 60 Hz as an example. Few musical instruments 1st octave are below 40 Hz.

I guess it depends if you want to enjoy everything on the disc or not.

Again, correct. My 4 F-20 subs which are huge 20hz tuned folded horns hit 122 dBs at 20hz with 10% THD, 110 dBs at 10hz. Now this is 4 15's horn loaded in my 2100 cubic foot room so I also have a hard time seeing dual PSA XV-15 hit 127 dBs or more. Are we talking at the LP or at the subs? I am talking at the LP where it matters.

So what I did was go multiple sealed so I could hit 122 dBs at 10hz. Cost more but getting high spl down low does. Actually I can hit that at 6hz as well now.

I hit 125db @ 30hz on my radio shack spl meter at my LP. I have the subs near field and getting a massive gain in the 30hz range. being flat to 10hz does not matter to me as i listen to mostly music with my system. my point was the xv15's have some great output and extension for the money.

In regards to the OP, hitting 14 Hz is not needed unless he is into a lot of pipe organ music and for bass, something that is good between 25-80 Hz will do the job. Is 14 Hz needed for Ht., no, something that can hit 20 Hz will do a great job. He does not have a large space to fill. The old argument that there is a lot of music sub 30 Hz is bogus. Most of what is being hear is the 2nd harmonic at 60 Hz as an example. Few musical instruments 1st octave are below 40 Hz. For his purpose, a Premiere Acoustic PA 150 may be overkill.

I know they are great subs but being nearfield and having a 15 dB peak means that you can only hit 125 dBs at 30hz.

how do you know i can "only" hit 125db @ 30hz? fyi i had headroom left, i just did not want to push them harder being brand new. give me some time to get a eq system and get these subs dialed in. then ill post some max spl graphs to show what they are capable of. Read the op, im just trying to inform him the psa subs are a good buy for the money. i made a typo and now folks are jumping all over me like a fly on ****. easy fellas were only talking about subwoofers here.

In regards to the OP, hitting 14 Hz is not needed unless he is into a lot of pipe organ music and for bass, something that is good between 25-80 Hz will do the job. Is 14 Hz needed for Ht., no, something that can hit 20 Hz will do a great job. He does not have a large space to fill. The old argument that there is a lot of music sub 30 Hz is bogus. Most of what is being hear is the 2nd harmonic at 60 Hz as an example. Few musical instruments 1st octave are below 40 Hz. For his purpose, a Premiere Acoustic PA 150 may be overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKtheater

I guess it depends if you want to enjoy everything on the disc or not.

I agree with MK.

Lombardi said it:Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

I agree with MK and Craig too, but not at the OP's price range, I still think he should aim for better sound quality above 20Hz if he wants reasonable HT volume. He cannot get what either of you have at $1000 or less

In regards to the OP, hitting 14 Hz is not needed unless he is into a lot of pipe organ music and for bass, something that is good between 25-80 Hz will do the job. Is 14 Hz needed for Ht., no, something that can hit 20 Hz will do a great job. He does not have a large space to fill. The old argument that there is a lot of music sub 30 Hz is bogus. Most of what is being hear is the 2nd harmonic at 60 Hz as an example.

+1. I have over a hundred RTAs taken at a major concert venue, where the million dollar plus systems made even MKtheater's look like a Bose Lifestyle by comparison. SPL seldom exceeded 115dBC, and when they did I made them turn it down, as I was the dB cop. No matter, 115dB was plenty, though that was in the FOH 125 feet from the stage. It got a bit louder closer in. Maximum levels were in the 50 to 70Hz range, with content dropping off rapidly below 40Hz. What was most interesting was the content between 20 and 32Hz, as it was always the same, whether the band was paying or not. That's because all of the content from 32Hz and down was from traffic, foot traffic from within the venue, road traffic from without.

Until you have heard/felt reasonable displacement down that low you simply have no idea what you are missing and an ignorance is bliss circumstance is where you'll be, nothing wrong with that as that covers the majority of satisfied HT'ers.

+1. I have over a hundred RTAs taken at a major concert venue, where the million dollar plus systems made even MKtheater's look like a Bose Lifestyle by comparison. SPL seldom exceeded 115dBC, and when they did I made them turn it down, as I was the dB cop. No matter, 115dB was plenty, though that was in the FOH 125 feet from the stage. It got a bit louder closer in. Maximum levels were in the 50 to 70Hz range, with content dropping off rapidly below 40Hz. What was most interesting was the content between 20 and 32Hz, as it was always the same, whether the band was paying or not. That's because all of the content from 32Hz and down was from traffic, foot traffic from within the venue, road traffic from without.

Yeah, no surprise that concert venues have no response below about 40 Hz. You "Pro-Sound" guys place a lot less value on infrasonics than many of us HT guys.

I don't design my subwoofer system JUST to hit Pro Sound levels or extension. I don't JUST listen to concerts. If I did, I would design my system differently. I also watch movies... and I want better LF response than what I can get, even at my local IMax. Deep infrasonic response at useable levels is what I'm after. Having experienced this, there is no doubt in my mind that is is beneficial and noticeable.

Craig

Lombardi said it:Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."