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Thursday, December 10, 2015

When and why to let a sociopath know they've hurt you

From a reader:

Hi M.E., I would love your opinion or insight on this, if you have time.One of my friends is a high functioning, non-violent sociopath. I love him, and even though I'm an empath, I share a similar mindset with sociopaths. I kind of understand the neurobiology of sociopathy, so I don't get caught in moral reasoning regarding right and wrong doing--I don't even believe in free will, and see human interaction within the context of evolutionary game theory.But, I do realize that reminding myself of that is not easy at times, and removing my skin from the situation to see what's really going on requires an effort.Also, rationalizing and understanding doesn't change the fact that I want to feel cared for, so I sometimes get a bit sad when he is indifferent and inconsiderate.He is not abusive, I don't feel exploited, in which case I would just move away.We engage in interesting conversations and I know he enjoys being around me. He always ends up next to me on social gatherings and I notice his eyes on me when he thinks I can't see him, which I find flattering even though I know he wouldn't give a fuck if I died.I really appreciate the fact that he is open about his shallow emotions, he doesn't lie about his feelings.It's difficult for me to figure out the best way to let him know that I care about him but I feel kind of hurt sometimes (not often, though).What kind of dynamic do you think works best to maintain a healthy friendship based on your own experience? Do you think it's a good idea to let him know when I'm upset? Tit for tat? What kind of response, if any, would have a positive impact on you?Thanks for reading, I love that you are also open about your inner life and that you're trying to make this world a better place for a minority that also deserves to be understood. We all need love and compassion.(I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm sorry about any mistakes.)

M.E.:

What would be your motivation for telling him when and why you are hurt? That would be really helpful in letting you know if it's likely to be successful. Because if you're trying to tell him that you're hurt in order to provoke an emotional or empathetic response, you are likely to just become more hurt at the lack of response. He's probably unable of meeting your needs on that point.

But if you are just trying to give him feedback, like conditional behavioral therapy feedback, then he probably would appreciate the extra information for his data mining efforts. This is not as true for sociopaths, but when people are criticized without their invitation, they often react poorly and defensively and don't end up internalizing the criticism. So it's as if the criticism had no value, even a negative value because now they trust you less for having attacked them and been disloyal (in their minds). Even with sociopaths, it's probably best practices to ask permission to give them feedback on your experience of them. Also it is probably best practices to wait until you are not feeling particularly emotional about the situation (which is actually more important when dealing with sociopaths).

80 comments:

Essentially, this sociopath will always have the upper hand because of the truism, "He who loves the least controls the relationship." Your articulation of your sadness about this will further widen the power imbalance in between you.

Sociopaths love power. When you (even in the context of healthy boundaries) say "ouch" it's kind of like announcing a sore tooth to a tongue. For reasons unknown to all of us, when a tooth is sore, we feel compelled to continue prodding that tooth until the soreness is somehow resolved. A sociopath is like the tongue here- compelled to nudge and explore for pain almost reflexively.

To ask a sociopath not to act this way is to invite more of the behavior that causes you pain. Or if by some chance the sociopath is going through some sort of life moment where they want to experiment with not reverting to asshole behavior, you will likely find that what you love about the relationship goes flat. Your beloved sociopath is now acting like a robot and tiptoeing around your feelings in a way that begins to bore you almost immediately.

So it's your job to see the sociopath for what they are and to not ask the sociopath to mold themselves into the sort of friend who is beholden to honoring your feelings before taking action. You might as well castrate your friend and that will never end well.

If your friend truly is a sociopath your job is to recognize what is being triggered in you and then simply withdraw. When you have figured out the genesis of the sore tooth within yourself then you can seek a more appropriate outlet for resolving what is making you feel sore, rather than alerting your tongue to a situation it is not equipped to heal, only to antagonize.

Paradoxically, your withdrawal makes you ten time more desirable to the sociopath and they will do whatever they can to re- engage with you (if you were actually as desirable to them as you led yourself to believe).

If they don't chase after you, maybe you were simply ensnared by their flattery (no shame in that, just see it for what it is). More flattery won't make you feel better. Just addicted and then the sociopath will begin to feel your hunger for a certain sort of feedback and will be transformed into the tongue that can not leave the poor sore tooth alone.

So you have a sore tooth. Know it, own it, and heal. It's not the sociopath's job to be part of the process. On the other side, the sociopath may be there or they may not. But you have solved your problem without making the sociopath responsible for your pain. This exercise will increase your personal power in all future actions immeasurably.

Your final paragraph is spot on. Taking responsibility for own feelings and my own healing has created greater capacity for action in all relationships and spheres in my life. Stumbling or baby steps in many cases as I learn, but how much greater is it to walk than to crawl! It won't be long before I'm running, then flying through the Matrix.

I'm learning it's best to be responsible for yourself in all relationships. We are adults and are capable of this. We are no longer children, emotionally dependent on another.

To the article OP: I enjoyed your story - your writing was perfectly lucid) - and wish you all the best.

I can understand the appeal of the sociopath as you explain it. Does your unique perspective leave you in lonely places sometimes?

Thanks North, I wish the best for you too.I don't think I feel lonely, but I'm very introverted so I don't need a lot of social interaction. I think being curious about the biology of behavior has helped me understand our differences better and become more accepting. When you don't believe in free will you don't look for guilt or punishment and at least for me, it was kind of liberating (even though I have to consciously remind this to myself because it's easy to forget).

It's nice to meet you. I look forward to hearing more of your perspective.

I'm also introverted and curious and have a materialist, evolutionary understanding of human relations. Neither do I feel guilt or seek punishment- but perhaps for different reasons. I've found self-acceptance and trusting my ability to maintain my social place (or find new social groups) dissolves the need for guilt. This also opens the way for a non-judgemental approach to others. I've also learnt to fight for things I like. So for me, the understanding is organic.

You are highly intelligent and open-minded. I encourage you to stay open to your feelings, even if you don't express them to your sociopath friend. Feelings have a very important purpose in human evolution: they are our gift for social navigation and they are wiser in surprising ways than our intellect. We are not weak for having feelings - but we must learn to treat them as messengers and value their inputs if we are to harness their power.

When I listen to my feelings, I honour my whole *self* and can decide on productive courses. It does take time, but that's ok! Sociopaths are so magnetic with their ability to decide and act swiftly - but both styles are valid for the fact of the existence.

Hey North, my pleasure. I've found the blog and read M.E.'s book a few months ago and both resources are fascinating, so hopefully we'll keep in touch. :)I think we have so much to learn about ourselves by paying attention to the behavior of others, if we look close enough we can relate and recognize part of that behavior in ourselves. But as you have put it, it's truly important to look inside too. For example, now that I just read A's response to Jonaid and of course noticed his 20 comments or so flooding all over this page (lol), I can think of narcissism to illustrate my point. Maybe his ego is not bigger than my own but, for different reasons, I'm better equipped to hide it or control my impulses. I'm anxious at times, I'm sure the reaction of other people to my own displays of grandiosity have triggered stress responses that now make me less willing to let my ego so exposed, but for my own good! Even that it may not be a conscious decision, but something I've learnt through an emotional mechanism. And as you said, that is also an important part of our wisdom, and it's great to embrace intuition and emotion too. The same for sociopathic traits, I do feel affective empathy but I'm no Gandhi, so I can relate if I look inside.. I like to see traits as variables on a continnum. It's a very complex interaction and I find it fascinating. I love science and looking for patterns and principles, and logic and abstraction. Like you, I'm also T in Myers-Briggs (INTJ).By the way, I'm a huge fan of Robert Sapolsky. Do you have any strong influences regarding the workings of the mind?

I'm curious what is meant by being 'cared for' really means to this person. If you accept his shallow feelings, that he can't feel or express or relate to your 'stuff' emotionally, the next step would be to observe what kind of demonstration of his fondness for you would suffice. There are many kinds and ways to love; a scientist doesn't display any emotions regarding his field of study (say genetics in fruit flies) whilst still showing a rational passion for his/her subject. His is a cold analytic type of love, a passionate fascination, which is nonetheless a kind of love.

One thing to keep in mine: So long as he's not exploiting or willfully hurting you he respects you, and with respect comes admiration, which I would guess has a lot of currency with socios. Your socio is probably attracted to you partly because you have signaled to him that you understand his shallow nature and accept it. So, your expectations of him in a caring sense may not be on his radar; your sadness or hurt may fly right over his head. Defining what you want from him and recognizing whether or not you need and can obtain that particular 'caring bond' you appear to seek is essential.

I also think that there are various ways of expressing pain which bring out different reactions in different neurotypes. Even an empath like me can get testy and even coldly indifferent while listening to someone who's an emotional wreck goes on and on about how someone hurt them, i.e., play the whining victim. (Compassion fatigue is common amongst counselors and doctors.)

Questions arise concerning boundaries and clear communication when you find yourself in a relationship with a socio. If you love your socio, I believe you will find that remaining flexible in your definition of what 'caring' really means is most useful. I don't expect, for example, my cat to attack an home intruder like I would, say, my dog, because cats aren't wired that way. My cat's failure to at least try to protect me from the intruder would not disappoint or sadden me; if my dog or mate stood by and did nothing, I would be.

This isn't the best analogy, but it's the best I can do on one cuppa coffee.

A strong rational approach combined with the strength to say, No, I don't need you to fulfill my needs on this particular plane, can only heighten your interaction in a positive way. If you need a shoulder to cry on, find one's that soft, not armored.

Personal example:I had a socio friend who borrowed a book by a favorite poet of mine. I went to great lengths to explain to this person that this book was signed and given me by someone very dear and very dead, and that I wanted the book returned. A few weeks later, we had a falling out when this person wanted sex and I couldn't/wouldn't fulfill their desire. They tore my book to shreds and then lied about it. I was furious and burst into tears, trying to explain why I was so disappointed. The blank shock on his face, his inability to understand the sentimental value of the book, his casual contemptuousness (I'll buy you another one. What's the fucking problem?) struck me to the core. It was a moment when I realized that he just couldn't understand, that I was explaining my position in a emotional manner that sounded to him like Greek.

As onewoman above has pointed out, if you insist on receiving neurotypical love, you will turn your socio into an eggshell-walking robot; then he will have no choice but hide his true self or leave. No one repress their whole self forever.

“There are many kinds and ways to love; a scientist doesn't display any emotions regarding his field of study (say genetics in fruit flies) whilst still showing a rational passion for his/her subject. His is a cold analytic type of love, a passionate fascination, which is nonetheless a kind of love.”

I like the imagery that you’ve created in this fragment. Where, or how far, do you see the scientist taking his passionate fascination for the genetics in fruit flies? :)

“…if you insist on receiving neurotypical love, you will turn your socio into an eggshell-walking robot; then he will have no choice but hide his true self or leave. No one [can] repress their whole self forever.”

“…if you insist on receiving neurotypical love, you will turn your socio into an eggshell-walking robot; then he will have no choice but hide his true self or leave. No one [can] repress their whole self forever.”

Not being a fruit fly scientist, I can only speculate how far or deep he would take his passion, Parnasse. But I've seen enough people who are enthralled with their 'subject' to believe that fascination breeds its own kind of love. People who adore reptiles, for instance, will wax profane about them for hours on end, renovate their homes, etc., etc.

Another way of seeing it is that whatever or whoever we give oodles of our time and energy to is for all practical purposes an object of adoration. When a painter immerses him/herself in the canvas for ten hours straight they are 'loving' their art. So I think that love manifests in many different forms that are based on fascination, which sparks a devotion to the 'other' that we allow to consume our life force. And we give our force willingly to fruit flies, art or reptiles because we are charmed.

“Fascination breeds its own kind of love.” Your thoughts are incisive and unusually “fragrant,” Mr. Hyde. The consuming fascination that you describe is comparable to the ambushing and suffusing paint onto an artist’s exquisitely-primed canvas. Such sacrilegious, bringing spectacle can linger in a league above ground. Strangely-speaking, I believe that it comes in two transporting varieties: slow and fast.... Velocity and viscosity (i.e., that of paint, that is, in keeping with the impious, alluring tableau) are opposites, yet they can appear the same. Viscosity initiates the movement of proclivity, whereas velocity prompts the movement of elevated fascination.

We feel mesmerized when inner life becomes transfixingly busy. Like a painter in the heat of his or her passion, that fascination with the object you have penned so well becomes the seeker of the craft. All of a sudden, a spontaneous film of gestures becomes a reverberating masterpiece of striking sound. And, yes, we boldly give our time and energy to such profuse, marking incisions. Our life force passages with it, immersing into adulation.

If you had to choose, would you rather watch a silent, nonconformist film of prolonged, fascinating gestures or listen to a recording of serial sounds in “parseltongue” that you can somehow understand?

I have a longer comment to make on this but have to run right now. Two quick observations:

1) This questioner's English is far better than most "native" speakers and unless he / she is using the best online translator (please tell me which one because it's brilliant) he knows this fact full well. I'm sorry but there's something black in the milk.

2) Sociopaths aren't incapable of giving you an emotional response to an emotional inquiry. Most of the time that's their Q. They just only do it when THEY WANT to for their own agenda. Having said that, I have no doubt that sociopaths aren't always looking to screw someone over. I'm not nor ever was a full on sociopath but my empathy was (and I guess still is) similar to autistic folks. If I can't show you how much I care I'll definitely let you know (and apologize) because I'm "different" but because I recognize MY OWN shortcoming I will make it up in others ways. There is only one way to love but there are many ways to show someone you love and care. Point being: sociopaths just don't give a damn about you and when you - God forbid - ever end up "needing" one instead of saying they can't be there emotionally and simply apologizing for their "different wiring" they'll most likely shun you thinking you're up to something (again because that's what they do: use emotions to manipulate).

With again all due respect M.E. I don't think this questioner is an empath and if they are I'm sorry to say they're incredibly stupid (but with perfect English for a non-native speaker).

'With again all due respect M.E. I don't think this questioner is an empath and if they are I'm sorry to say they're incredibly stupid'

I couldn't have written it better... Pertaining to yourself.

OP, I very much enjoyed your post and took a lot of value from it. Jonaid is our resident cunt and can be safely disregarded. He sometimes makes good observations about his own personal experience but always draws preposterous inferences from them. He shows complete disregard for anyone else's experience or perspective.

You have been making a set of good observations, A. Moreover, and based on everything that he has been emptying on this site (including "other" gone astray posts), this is who he really is when it comes to Islam and fanaticism.

I'm not socio-bashing I've extremes that very, very, very few people go to understand these people. In the end it's just a matter of PRIDE and RESPONSIBILITY. If you were traumatized or abused and are emotional dead, my sympathies (really I've had no pleasant life myself) but that does NOT mean you're not responsible for your failings when it comes to other people.

You come to the right place for pleasure. Ok, what I have in mind. I will host, you come along, unzip lay back/stand up whatever will suit you and I get to work with my tongue and lips sucking your soggy cock deep and slow till bursting point then either I swallow or facial, that is your choice.

No reciprocation required unless you want too. I am open to most scenarios to play.

From personal experience, I can tell you that when I've hurt someone, it is better not to approach me tearfully. For reasons I dont fully understand, crying angers me, especially if I've provoked it. I'll get annoyed, impatient, and expect the person to "get over it already". I don't have affective empathy. Even if I have not provoked the outburst, I will be uncomfortable around this type of emotional display.

That said, I do not lack cognitive empathy. I might even approach a crying person to give them a hug. But I am not a comforting presence. I never know what to say. The best I can offer is to hold someone- and I have found that it is better for me to simply remain silent in these situations, because I am rather insensitive. I will want to approach the matter pragmatically and offer rational solutions, which I have discovered is not the kind of feedback crying people generally want. :P

As pertains to your question: I think it is best to communicate your needs directly. If you want more attention, tell him. Don't act wounded and petulant because he's not meeting a need that isn't even on his radar. He probably has no idea you're feeling insecure or hurt for whatever reason. For all our uncanny ability to pick up on your hidden motivations and weaknesses, we're kind of dense when it comes to your feelings.

If you approach a sociopath about how we are not meeting some emotional need, we will likely become defensive, even if only internally. We will resent your pulling on us. We will find you tiresome, needy and draining.

But if you approach us rationally, and put forth your need in a positive way without blaming us for not meeting it (again, we're dense, we probably have no idea you're feeling this way) on account of our emotional deficiencies and affective inadequacy, we will respect you for being forthcoming.

We like to be complimented. We will be flattered if you tell us you want more of our attention- *so long as you do not become too demanding*. Tell us what you admire about us first, and use this as contextual paradigm to state what you want. "I.e: You are so astute. I'd like for us to spend more time together because I really value/appreciate/ enjoy your feedback/company in (bla bla bla) area, for (bla bla bla) reason.

This will appeal to our narcissism. Yes, what I am suggesting is a form of manipulation, but this is our currency. Do not be afraid use it on us. :)

We will respect the strength you show by stating your needs directly and candidly. We will NOT be flattered if you approach us from a position of neediness, in which you "accuse" us of being insensitive of your feelings (even if it is true), because this broadcasts your weakness, which will repel us. See the difference?

Indeed, A. There's much to be said about relating to anyone in this way... a shared journey. No one wants to be blamed, and it is healthier for each person to take care of their own needs.

"I might even approach a crying person to give them a hug. But I am not a comforting presence. I never know what to say. The best I can offer is to hold someone- and I have found that it is better for me to simply remain silent in these situations, because I am rather insensitive. I will want to approach the matter pragmatically and offer rational solutions, which I have discovered is not the kind of feedback crying people generally want. :P"

It might help you to know that thinking types (Myers Briggs Ts) can more or less relate to this! I don't know what to say either, and when a person is that upset, it's good to simply be there. It's their experience and to be not-alone in times like that is enough (unless they are being whiny and manipulative of course...)

Many of my friends are emotionally unavailable males. Communicating clearly and without blame creates deeper trust, it's been very special and empowering for both parties.

My socio ex said "sometimes I get confused." Maybe that's less harsh than "kinda dense" ;)

"I will want to approach the matter pragmatically and offer rational solutions, which I have discovered is not the kind of feedback crying people generally want. :P"

Lol. Not sure why but i find this very funny and endearing. And after they stop crying, they might really dig these rational solutions...

What I realized a long time ago is that I feel guilty when people like me more than I like them. Guilt mixed with a bit of contempt. I am able to deal with it better as i get older, but really impacted my life in my 20s.

A, when you say that crying angers you, especially if you've provoked it and that it annoys you, isn't that a bit the same?

Why do you believe you like hurting people but when faced with the physical evidence that you have (tears) you recoil?

"We will respect the strength you show by stating your needs directly and candidly. We will NOT be flattered if you approach us from a position of neediness, in which you "accuse" us of being insensitive of your feelings (even if it is true), because this broadcasts your weakness, which will repel us. See the difference?"

I wonder if a sociopath ever actually thinks "I liked X because they seemed tough and not needy. All of a sudden they appear needy. I wonder how bad things got for them that they can't even help coming across as needy." No, of course they don't because they're "rational." See normal people, good people, sane people - we consider it a sign of TRUST and AFFECTION when someone is willing to show their weak side or to ask for help at a time of need. Of course we analyze the situation and look for possible signs of deception but that is NOT our default position and unless we have ample evidence to conclude that, we opt to help because that's HUMAN.

I live in usa and life is worth living comfortably for me and my family now and really have never seen goodness shown to me this much in my life as I am a mother who struggles with three children and I have been going through a problem as seriously as my husband found a terrible accident last two weeks, and the doctors states that he needs to undergo a delicate surgery for him to be able to walk again and I could not pay the bills, then your surgery went to the bank to borrow and reject me saying that I have no credit card, from there i run to my father and he was not able to help, then when I was browsing through yahoo answers and i came across a loan lender MR TONY HARTON, offering loans at affordable interest rate and i have been hearing about so many scams on the internet but at this my desperate situation, I had no choice but to give it an attempt and surprisingly it was all like a dream, I got a loan of $ 50,000 and I paid for my husband surgery and thank God today is good and you can walk and is working and the burden is longer so much on me more and we can feed well and my family is happy today and i said to myself that I will mourn aloud in the world of the wonders of God to me through this lender GOD fearing MR TONY HARTON and I would advise anyone in genuine and serious need of loan to contact this God-fearing man on financialhome34@outlook.com through .. and I want you all to pray for this man for meThanks

I was trying to remember how I've reacted when someone has told me I've hurt their feelings. One occasion came to mind BUT I realized that actually my friend didn't tell me she was hurt, she told me I had been unfair, which is completely different.

It was a case of me canceling something at the very last minute (I just couldn't face attending a social gathering) but I had something that belonged to her. So she was upset that she couldn't get her belongings because I didn't turn up. I can completely understand that and I know I had been selfish (as I often am).

Had she come to me saying I'd hurt her feelings perhaps I would have been annoyed thinking it was her own fault for feeling hurt because I didn't act the way she wanted me to act. Can you see the difference?

I told her I was sorry for being selfish. I also told her she is very welcome to notify me if I'me being selfish again in a way that bothers her. I would rather know than her getting annoyed at me without saying why. I even want to try and adjust my behavior because I value our friendship. (Although I'm not willing to do things I don't want to do. So next time when I don't feel like attending the party I'll order a cab and send her belongings to her so I don't cause her problems. See what I mean? Problem solved.)

If your friend is a socio then explain to him in a very concrete (not emotion-based) way why you don't like what he does.

While this may be true, it doesn't necessarily follow that the person in question should mind that the sociopath maintains the upper hand. We will dominate every relationship. We like power, and we like for it to be recognized. Submission does not equate with weakness. When demonstrated properly, it can be downright irresistible to us. You can manipulate us and elicit our "soft side" much more effectively with forthright submission than by challenging us. If you challenge us, we will make sure you lose.

This is not to say that we don't like being challenged. I married an alpha. I respect his intellect and strength. But we fight, a lot. If you prove to be a worthy combatant, we will begin to recognize you as an equal.

So while I might appreciate and even be attracted to a person who shows submission without sacrificing their self-respect, I will never view them as an equal. And I could never settle for less. It depends what you want from the relationship.

Of course, I am only speaking from my own experience. Although we may share certain underlying traits, sociopaths as as different from each other as empaths.

Hey, thank you all for the useful insights.It's so true that relating to a socio reminds you to take responsibility for your own life as a couple of you have said, and that it's a useful quality to develop beyond the relationship itself. So, I'll keep working on that.And even though I never show strong emotions, I think I will let him know in a dispassionate and kind way (so he doesn't act defensively as A said or see my sore tooth, to use onewoman's analogy) and see what happens.It may work well for us because we are both rational, I understand he has the right to feel or not to feel in whatever way, and I think he values the fact that I'm accepting.

NO. This is where you have your wires crossed, Jonarsewad. You see, you are your own sore tooth AND tongue, imbecile! And I am about to tell you how that happens. You posted as Jonaid at 8:20 AM/8:32 AM as the sore tooth and replied to yourself as Anonymous at 1:53 PM as the tongue.

No one else is partaking in your scatology. I hope that you hear me loud and clear. Wake up!

I like it when people have the courage to say what they think and ALL my friends share that capability. I cannot stand people who always agree with me – even if they really don't. Those people are walkovers and/or they're pretending and I really don't like pretentious people.

It's not even a matter of 'is it OK to say something that might be considered judgmental to a sociopath' I think it's a very good thing to do so if it's a matter of honesty. I really appreciate it when my friends criticize me or point out something if they have a reason to do so because for me it's a chance to learn and grow.

I love a good debate and really only want to hang out with people who can look at the world objectively. I try and look at myself that way too. One of the best things in the world is learning new skills and realizing new things and it can only happen when people share their honest thoughts. Those who cannot handle the 'truth' often get hurt because they cannot look at the world or themselves objectively but take things personally.

So Noelia: I think you could use this as an opportunity to deepen the relationship with your socio friend. There's nothing better than accepting people as they are. Perhaps you're afraid of him not accepting you if you share your point of view but would you really want to be friends with someone who doesn't?

"It may work well for us because we are both rational, I understand he has the right to feel or not to feel in whatever way, and I think he values the fact that I'm accepting."

Your English is just fine so need to apologize. As to your friend, he has an incredibly high opinion of himself and thinks you do too (of him). You probably don't need "high opinion" to like someone if you're an "empath." These people don't get us and then make up a thousand explanations why we don't get them. Proceed at your own peril.

On balance, the Empath KNOWS where you - the sociopath / narcissist - are falling short. You think we are being fooled because we don't know each and every tactic you use to manipulate or don't call you out on it all the time. Here's something any real empath knows and can confirm:

EVERY TIME you lie to us (save trivialities) our hearts tell us but since we're not arrogant and have compassion we choose to overlook knowing you need it and we can bear it. Sometimes we get overwhelmed or you cross the limits. In the end we DO take responsibility because it is an empath who is TOO generous that is abused by sociopaths.

It isn't weakness - we just sometimes get into real problems unrelated to you and all of a sudden we just need 1% of what we gave you. When we don't get it but instead are treated like worthless freaks, "weak" and pathetic...well you can imagine I'm sure.

Sociopaths love repeating "I'm rational" all the time. It's like their mantra. I bet there is a very correlation between sociopathy and people who say "I'm rational" more than two times without being asked.

Sorry to say but you're not rational - that's why you keep pumping out this nonsense to to force your brain to accept it.

96% of humans have empathy and it works well for civilization. Without it it wouldn't last. I'm going to cheat the system and help bring about the downfall because I can't do things in an honest and fair way. I don't have the courage to challenge the system if I disagree so I use deception instead. I need to "accept" myself because obviously all these empaths are 100% cool with themselves. I will cheat and lie and distort and abuse and then drop in an occasional hug to feign empathy. Unlike them, I'm "rational" and smart enough to know that I and ONLY I matter. The world exists for me and these clowns don't get it because they're not rational. I'm humbled by the immense responsibility I've taken upon myself that's why I never show the reservoir of hubris I have inside me. That would of course not be "rational."

Oh and those on the upper end of the pyramid get to dine with the master. He only likes the smart ones and I'm one of them because I'm "rational."

If any reader is wondering what I'm on about don't worry it's not for you.

I understand your point, Lola. We do debate and disagree but I think it's difficult for me when it comes to emotions. But yeah, I have been thinking yesterday after reading your comments and I think it would be a good idea to make my point in a logical way. Thank you all! :)

Seriously as someone who's been screwed over BIG TIME by sociopaths (out of envy and hate by family members and I'm not sure exactly why by a friend so I'll reserve judgement) reading your excuses - yes they're EXCUSES - for shirking responsibility is unpleasant to say the least. Had I not been revived by God I would have boiled over reading the bullshit you all put out.

Seriously I've read everything and I have no clue where to start - or even if I should start. I've wrote several full responses and then deleted them because they don't do justice to what I want to say. I decided there's no point unless I have some concrete reason to think anyone here is seriously wondering where THEY go wrong. Why waste time & energy to tell you what you probably already know (pathological liars can lie to cover up the truth) or are unwilling to believe or even understand.

I have no qualms in saying: wait until the time comes when you're so battered and in desperate need of someone who really gives a damn about you. When you can't find one, then we'll see how many seconds you last before grovelling and screaming and likely going insane (only empaths / good people have the courage to overcome - we cry because we're not afraid to ask for help when we need it, how "cowardly" and "weak" of us).

Have some shame do you not have any hearts? Thank God for God - even saints have limits.

I swear on God the One & Only that I have only one ID I use here and that's this one. Of course you won't believe me anyway because you're likely a pathological liar. I'd be a pathetic, insane loser unworthy of anyone's attention and should be disgraced and burn in hell if I lied about this or anything else I've been posting on this blog.

Socios don´t like noisy litte empaths trying to get them to tell them "why they hate them so!". A socio wants "quality time" with folks he can get something useful from: this may only be a "worthy" conversation with an elderly respected relative at christmas, for example. Nothing illegal or morally doubtful at all. Annoying, blabbering "piss ant"-people & "no good"-whiners, those have been put on the "Make sure never to be bothered by ever again"-list (which the socio always carry or imagine carrrying)..

1. Act like you "know so much".2. Sound like Daddy.3. Whine.4. Whine some more.5. Give lots of "unasked for" advice.6. Try to give the impression of being a"mans man" with hunting or bar-tales.7. Whine again, sob.8. Be "bluecollar-cocky", like if stupidity is somesort of badge of honor.9. Never stop sobbing.10. more suggestions..?

Like I said macho anonymous we'll see how much control you have when you experience 1% of those who "sob" go through. The mere fact that you have a life comfortable enough to not want or need emotional support is because others have sacrificed their own happiness for you. Parents? Loved ones? Friends? All empaths. You're living off their sacrifices but remember just because they give always doesn't mean they're angels or God. All they want is to not be treated LIKE SOCIOPATHS.

All men are by default a "man's man." The term only exists because those who have weaker hearts - especially those who willingly sell themselves - by extension will have equally weaker capacity to be courageous.

This I can affirm from my personal experience: having inherited my own family's misfortune (i.e. mental cloudiness, confusion, and a weakened heart) it took one calamity after another to strengthen me and be courageous. A year ago my definition of "being a man" would have been "stand your ground but be flexible and go with others when you don't know 100%." Now my definition is: "Follow your heart always when in doubt and Fear no one - good or bad - save God."

It is the first time i comment here but i have been reading from time to time. This answer from you north to jonaid led me to comment. If you are not a sociopath as you claim , i find it very interesting that you tend to speak often about power. 'Stop whining that you gave your power to recources'. Why you came to this conclusion from what he wrote? When someone can feel empathy and is normal in his brain doesnt care for power. He cherises connection. This is what jonaid tries to express i think even if he does it a little oddly sometimes. I ama woman, an empath, infj, neuroscientist, agnosticist, who had been involved with a psycopath for many years and i left him when i realised that what he seeks is power. I find it really meaningless, stupid and boring. A lot of incidents happened before and after I left him but I think that what is in the root of me leaving him is that I absolutely disregard power games. I appreciate your writing and your thought process north but I get the impression thst you tend to become too detached and some times even nihilistic under all this sociopathic influence in this blog. I am not a savior nor do I like to give advice. It is just my impression and It may very well be invalid. But if you can feel empathy and you care for other people , cherish your heart and connect. Power is just Bullsit. It can never fill you inside,only love can do this. Power is a pseudosubstitude when love, cari and true connection is absent. As Jung says power is the shadow of love. Where love exists , power is impossible to co exist and vice versa. Nana

Your advice to cherish my heart is welcome encouragement. That's what I'm doing and that's why I'm checking out for a while.

I actually don't think you've read many of my posts and you see only my frustration that Jonaid is pissing all over a place of healing for me.

I refer to personal power. I had never learned to cultivate my personal power until recently.

Without personal power, others can manipulate and control. And I think that clip from Wire in the Blood is perfectly accurate - relationships all feature an element of power balancing.

Do I want to love? Yes. But I am not ready for a relationship. Instead, I am looking to change what I can: my broken patterns of relating to others. I'm not in a hurry. I give myself time and am learning to love myself.

I don't think a materialist perspective is in any way negative and I am creating for myself a vast and rich life.

That looks different for each of us.

I don't know about love: I am only learning to love myself. I do know about giving away personal power and know I don't want to do that again. And that is up to me.

On Friday, my company had a Christmas party. I was given the Metamorphosis Award: for my commitment to helping transform the company caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly. But these people know my journey and I can tell you they can see my personal transformation. They are my friends and I'm learning better ways partially through dealing with these good people that care about me and value my contributions.

I don't have to justify myself to you. I do want to say why Jonaid's thwarting is unacceptable to me.

You are right that power games are not fulfilling. I don't expect you to understand my method... But quickly speaking; I listen to the various impulses that arise within me now and don't discredit them because they don't fit some externally imposed framework. I explore my feelings because they are messengers from myself. And I honour myself. So when I posted that Wire in the Blood clip, I was exploring a part of myself. Yes, there is a thrill for me in that - but I already know why. It's the thrill from a pattern of behaviour developed in childhood- arguing my existence to my father. The way to challenge patterns is to challenge the beliefs underlying the feelings that drive the behaviours. I'm not scared to look at the darker elements of my psyche because I am confident they will resolve in healthy ways. But one needs datapoints to do this and datapoints come from personal experience, sometimes aided by narratives of others. So thankyou for sharing your story. It is a helpful reminder.

But Nana, you might try disagreeing with Jonaid to see what happens. He will instantly discredit you (cf his calling noelia stupid or not an empath, or the lady married to a psychopath a minion, or me the basest of psychopaths).

If you really think he seeks connection... Well, I don't want what you're selling. I tried long and hard to be reasonable and share my journey with him (which is only one reason I say you haven't read many of my posts). He is like my ex-husband - any disparity with his views is not tolerated. Jonaid is sadly incapable of connection because connection to him means complying with his perspective. Compliance. Fuck that as a basis for any relationship. Do you think he's not playing power games!?!?! Look at his response to my comment on the next post: trying to dominate and define.

Maybe you are here to explore this problem you have with power? I have healing to do elsewhere.

No , im not here to resolve any personal problem with power.Assumptions are not very wise. I am quite well with myself. I am someone who likes to expand his consciousness and learn from any experience. The same happened after i experienced my personal story with the psycopath in my life. Due to some rare encounters i must still have with him due to job related issues i observe his strange behaviour and i come here from time to time just to see what might be under his quirks as he acts in very weird ways. That's all. I do not intend to stay here for long.

i just made a comment for something i observed. If this felt like an insult to you, then i apologise and i am sorry . I do not have any intention to take anybody's sides here as i am not someone who likes compats or tries to impose his views to others. Especially when i have no idea who the other person really is.

Everybody has his personal journey in life and he can follow it as he wishes.

"I don't know about love: I am only learning to love myself. I do know about giving away personal power and know I don't want to do that again. And that is up to me."

If you've been hurt by giving away personal power you would be a natural ally to me. Nonetheless, this is a public forum with all posts available to anyone who wants to read. If Nana, or anyone, really cares to find out who is disingenous and who is honest, all they have to do is go back and start reading from the start. If anyone decides to "choose sides" by reading your whimpers against me, well then that's just exposes them also.

You'll see I asked you a question and challenged the very many assumptions you made about me, including questioning whether I was a sociopath and claiming I was cold and detached (which I note you describe as key sociopathic characteristics in your comments on the next post.)

Given that, yes, I did take your comment personally and there is no shame in that. I think the sociopath/psychopath has a perfectly valid mode of existence that highlights the assumptions we make in our own lives. Those were highlighted very starkly for me by a primary psychopath. I choose to rebuild my framework of understanding and you will see all sides of my intellectual, personal and one might say spiritual (but I think in terms of neurobiology) explorations here. You jumped on one element. Fine. I'm pointing out your have seen one colour in a kaleidoscope.

Yes, we each have our own journeys. I always start my interactions with openness.

No, i do not regard cold and detachment key sociopathic characteristic as every person who is not sociopathic can display them in relation with life conditions. The key characteristic of a psycopath are the absense of empathy and conscience. Due to them they come out cold and detached when they are not faking emotions and this gives them the picture of resiliense to someone unsuspecting of their internal make up. This is what i am saying to my later post. It is my opinion and you may have yours as well.You also are free to believe whatever you want about psycopathy as everybody is.

Also i did not say that is a shame that you took my comment personally. In fact i apologised if i insulted you. The fact that you still act defensively after this, is your own personal issue. I am not going to deal with it further.

Still looking to suck blood, Joniad? I was speaking with Nana - it's no concern of yours,

Nana - I am grieving the loss of a place special to me for exactly the behaviour Jonaid is again demonstrating. I'm sure we would get along just fine at any other time and sorry to lash out while upset at this loss. But I would have challenged you at any time ;)

Minions attribute my participation on this blog to narcissism. Sociopaths who are sincerely looking for answers and empaths will - I hope - recognize that I'm providing my own insights so as to prevent these minions / psychos from winning you over with their subtle, often sophisticated bullshit. They work slowly and patiently to win you over to their own side so like them you too end up sold and doomed.

Come and blow over meI am in bed waiting for you to arrive and flop out your cock and jerk it till you blow all over meBlow over my face or my chest or better still over my cock then go leaving me with your cum

Ok, Jihadi. Since it is clear that you are as much a flaming narcissist as you are a queer, and therefore not going anywhere, I am going to drop my game in this post, and address you candidly. In fact, I am going to love on you a bit... If only because I always feel a certain affection for the ones I batter, here. ;) You can decide for yourself thereafter if you think I'm a devil.

I know that in your mind, you've literally cast me as "chief minion" (lol!) around these parts- but the fact is, we were never properly introduced. :P

A few years ago, when I first started visiting this blog, I poured out my life story. As a narcissistic extrovert without a place to dump- I made this place it. I just wanted to vocalize everything I was coming to realize. I spoke about how God had changed me... In my ignorance, I even stated that He had "cured" my sociopathy... But I lacked self-awareness. I thought that a belief in something wholesome, good, and entirely transcendent could transform me... But the problem was, it wasn't working. It worked for other people... Like you claim it worked for you- and others I know who have turned to God- but it wasn't working for me.

The sociopaths who frequented this place helped me to see my extreme narcissism, but I was very defensive. A guy called UK tore me down like a right sonofabitch, forcing me to examine some very difficult exegetical questions, honing in on the weak spots in my theology with his signature antisocial, razor sharp wit. But I didn't run away like a bitch because I was intimidated by his arguments or his "lack of civility". I engaged them- and my self-awareness grew alongside my evolving faith, which had to account for some of the objections he leveraged against it.

I have since come to understand that certain things weren't changing on account of the *hard-wiring of my brain*, and all of the "curse patterns" that I inherited that are inextricably entwined in my DNA, where soul meets body.

I believe that personality disorders are generational curse patterns: a complex, metaphysical interplay of genetic, epigenetic, environmental and spiritual influences. My father was a violent, abusive psychopath. In my case, the twin guns of nature and nurture were pointed straight at my brain. I didn't stand a chance. And I am helpless to change what I am. Any righteousness I claim is but self-righteousness. You claim to believe in the Bible, which teaches us in the parable of the prayers of the Pharisee and the tax collector that God is not impressed with our false humility.

Yet THAT false humility is precisely what you display here when you cast yourself as a saint amongst demons.

What my faith HAS done is given me an orientation, and a strong sense of purpose. It provides me with a sound moral compass, and influences my actions wherein certain very important spheres of my life are concerned. For all your claims of my being a degenerate devil, I am *not* in an open marriage. I am a non-practicing bisexual. I am somewhat of a philanthropist, and I sublimate my aggression in the bedroom, as well as on this blog, where the damage I inflict is minimal, and in some cases- even helpful- according to my unusual gifts.

What it HAS NOT done is change my neurobiology. I still don't feel guilt, shame or remorse. I remain callous, insensitive, harsh, and even sadistic. I have very little affective empathy. I can lie without compunction. I have unusual, violent sexual proclivities, a chronic stimulation seeking problem, and I'm an avid thrill-seeker, sometimes to the point of recklessness. Manipulation is my default mode of operation. Since becoming self-aware, I 've realized that I have been operating this way all of my adult life, quite unconsciously- often to the benefit of those around me, but sometimes to their detriment. And I am still bisexual.

But my sins will not condemn me any more than my good works will justify me- "for it is by faith that we are saved, and not by works, so that no man can boast." Our *faith* is accounted to us as righteousness.me.

So you see, Jonaid, I am not a devil worshipper. I am no minion. I'm just another "sinner", or- to use North's secular description- merely another person crashing into others, with good traits, and bad ones. Many of my personality traits are consistent with sociopathy, but that doesn't make me a monster.

Don't remain oblivious to your narcissism. You fancy yourself some kind of saint amongst a demonic horde- when in reality, you are just like everyone else, in a very special place where people like us can drop the masks, and be ourselves.

You love God, but you are seeking him amidst the doctrines of demons. How ironic that you should find Him here, amongst a group of miscreants that He died to save, without precondition. :)

At least, that is what I believe- but it is not up to me, or you, to convince anyone else of that. So stop trying to convert everyone. It's annoying, makes you act like an asshole, and it isn't going to work.

Do not mistake this post for an olive branch. Every time you proselytize from the Quran, I will counter your efforts with the truth about Islam. If you continue to denigrate the atmosphere of this place with your self-righteous offal, I'll keep telling you how much your shit stinks, and consider it a public service.

After all, someone has to do the dirty work- and I was bred for that purpose. So I will continue to hand you your sorely whipped ass on a platter. Not because I'm a demon- but because I am a sociopath, built to fight, and this is what I do best.

There. I'm not big on labels, but I said it. And I'm going to try to own it.

While this may be true, it doesn't necessarily follow that the person in question should mind that the sociopath maintains the upper hand. We will dominate every relationship. We like power, and we like for it to be recognized. Submission does not equate with weakness. When demonstrated properly, it can be downright irresistible to us. You can manipulate us and elicit our "soft side" much more effectively with forthright submission than by challenging us. If you challenge us, we will make sure you lose.

"A" a bit later:

So while I might appreciate and even be attracted to a person who shows submission without sacrificing their self-respect, I will never view them as an equal. And I could never settle for less. It depends what you want from the relationship.

ME:

If you don't notice the contradiction and flaw in your thinking as demonstrated above than how can I engage with you on any serious issue? Not only do I have proof of a lack of logical consistency but a reservoir of sophistry since you first starting addressing me.

When I started to get close to the sociopath friend of mine, it was because I thought "well, he seems okay albeit a bit contradictory here & there, oh well people are different and I chose to see his good side and not his other side." Besides, my relationship was primarily professional, not personal, and I did not view him as a threat there. I eventually tried to keep a little distance at the personal level BECAUSE I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID IN THE PARAGRAPHS I QUOTED. I could be with for a few weeks, months, maybe years but his wants and my wants are not the same. He has no idea where I come from and what I've seen in my life. I could see he was a happy-go-lucky guy and while my attitude is largely the same, he was just way too lucky for me. Don't get me wrong, God is my witness I was happy for him, but I knew he wouldn't understand me (he never seemed to care to). I was OKAY with all of it. But he screwed me over and the business because I ended up in a mess unrelated to him and committed the unforgivable sin: approach him with a sad face.

Now appreciate your slight change of tone but you have a lot more work to do before you can be taken seriously by anyone other than your minions. Considering the reservoir of insults and lies you've already thrown at me and my beliefs, it'll take even more work to build some trust with you. Where there's a will, there's a way. I leave it to you. I'm not optimistic.

How can I engage with an anonymous sociopath (self-affirmed) in any serious dialogue and believe them? Surely the onus is on YOU to balance that out. If you can't see that, than I guess your "rational" mind is beyond me and I don't warrant your time.

I meant to say *logical INconsistency* in the first post above. Also, I answered you even though I said I wouldn't. I did this only to show you that I'm always willing to re-engage when you're mature enough. I'm not afraid of your arguments nor am I afraid of coming acrosss as weak by "giving in" to your new tactics.

"Like you claim it worked for you- and others I know who have turned to God- but it wasn't working for me."

I didn't say this. I said I was forced to accept the reality that God exists and is actively engaged with his creation. Once I accepted it and let myself "take it in" I felt peace and serenity that I never knew was possible.

Please quote me accurately and if you're not sure ask, in a civil manner.

There's a certain power accorded to those in the submissive role in the relationship with a sociopath. The sociopath who is the dominant role player in that relationship is giving their object of adoration a valid position of power because once that relationship is established that object sees a point where they realize "As the sub in this relationship, I can't ever truly escape the reach of my dom's will. What will I do then to stretch the boundaries of this relationship?"

To a sociopath, we see through the illusion of the "personal rights" of others; like everything else the rights of individuals are a social construct. We pay respect to those "rights" when it's in our best interest to do so in order to seek the power we desire from a platonic or romantic relationship.

"Not because I'm a demon- but because I am a sociopath, built to fight, and this is what I do best." - This was funny I had to laugh. I can imagine a sociopath who "fights."

You people have turned a human being into a robot with all this garbage talk about "dominance" and "submissive" and "neurotypical" and "power" etc etc. This is what happens when people lose their hearts. We all have the same feelings and fears - they only manifest differently to our conscience because our experiences are different. Sociopaths, like anyone else, want company. They want to feel understood and cared for and loved etc (even if that's "in their way"). The problem is that what they do is a facade - it's an illusion which satiates them for a while and disheartens (to say the least) their victims. TRUE love, TRUE commitment, TRUE solidarity and TRUE companionship is what a HUMAN is supposed to aim for.

The deeper you go into this pit of called "psychopathy" the more you forget your origins. A human being is a walking, talking machine. Your conscience - the heart & soul - is the REAL you, NOT the machine that YOU are operating. Follow the devil's path and you slowly kill your true self and eventually are left with a semi-rational sack of meat with no empathy & no emotional capacity (only the ability to see it in others and imitate their outward behavior).

Stop making yourselves feel happy or special with all this BS talk and free yourselves. Deep down you know there's a purpose to all this - you don't want to give up and become a deluded minion.

I hope you realize by now that when I attack "you people" I'm attacking your "masks." I'm attacking your false cover which is harming you but many other innocent people. You can do injustice to yourself but you have no right to do so to others.

I read some posts from a few months back where sociopaths are saying they started to lose people when they took off their masks. Yes, this will happen but you should think "good riddance" instead of lamenting it. Anyone who leaves you because you decide to be YOU is not worth having around, obviously. I speak from experience - people who will give you all kinds of nice words (meaningless, incoherent but subtle and fleetingly sensible) - including some very highly qualified psychologists. The moment you say "God" they run away and say you're crazy. No joke. It only strengthened my faith.

Apologies for clogging the space I had to clarify lest I be misconstrued:

"...decide to be YOU" doesn't mean whatever you think you are and makes you happy. I mean someone recognizes that the brain has its function but its the HEART which decides what your purpose is. Sociopaths turn that upside down.

HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK AFTER HE LEFT ME FOR ANOTHER WOMAN..!!My name is Marina Williams, I am a UK citizen, 48 years Old. I reside here in London United Kingdom.My residential address is as follows, 43 Stephen Road, Bexleyheath DA7 6EF United Kingdom, I have been in bondage, passing through pains, sorrow, heart broke, ever since my Husband left me for another woman, It was really hell for me and everybody told me to forget about him but i could not because i love him so much,I cried and sobbed every day, until it got so bad that I reached out to the Internet for help. And i saw a testimony of a spell caster who help a girl called cynthia get her ex boyfriend back, and i said let me give it a try,but I never believe because i thought all spell caster are fake,so i decided to contact him for help and he cast a love spell for me which i use in getting my Husband back and now i am a happy woman. For what you have done for me,i will not stop to share your goodness to people out there for the good work you are doing. Once again thank you Dr Frank Ojo You are truly talented and gifted. If you need his help you can reach him on his email address: Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com , i believed him and today i am glad to let you all know that this spell caster have the power to bring lovers back. because i am now happy with my husband.Try the Dr Frank Ojo today he we be the key or answer to your problem. Here's his contact email address: { Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com } Website address: http://lovespell2.yolasite.com, His Mobile number: +234)80- 7237-0762, i give you 100% guarantee that he will help you.!!

HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK AFTER HE LEFT ME FOR ANOTHER WOMAN..!! My name is Marina Williams, I am a UK citizen, 48 years Old. I reside here in London United Kingdom.My residential address is as follows, 43 Stephen Road, Bexleyheath DA7 6EF United Kingdom, I have been in bondage, passing through pains, sorrow, heart broke, ever since my Husband left me for another woman, It was really hell for me and everybody told me to forget about him but i could not because i love him so much,I cried and sobbed every day, until it got so bad that I reached out to the Internet for help. And i saw a testimony of a spell caster who help a girl called cynthia get her ex boyfriend back, and i said let me give it a try,but I never believe because i thought all spell caster are fake,so i decided to contact him for help and he cast a love spell for me which i use in getting my Husband back and now i am a happy woman. For what you have done for me,i will not stop to share your goodness to people out there for the good work you are doing. Once again thank you Dr Frank Ojo You are truly talented and gifted. If you need his help you can reach him on his email address: Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com , i believed him and today i am glad to let you all know that this spell caster have the power to bring lovers back. because i am now happy with my husband.Try the Dr Frank Ojo today he we be the key or answer to your problem. Here's his contact email address: { Templeofloveandprosperity@gmail.com } Website address: http://lovespell2.yolasite.com, His Mobile number: +234)80- 7237-0762, i give you 100% guarantee that he will help you.!!

!!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

How do I not take it personally that three members of my family who are sociopaths lied about it my whole life? In the rational brain, could they not see they were not growing a healthy person by abusing me, and that I might need some help from another empath? I was isolated to be in contact with only sociopaths.Also, why do you repel so-called neediness (I would call it rapid explanation using words you don't like) when you are all so needy yourselves? I have never seen people so desperate for outside validation for self-love.Can you not respect someone who is different, that what they are saying doesn't mean what you see it as?

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.