dready zim:Actually, my post was in support of things like slut walk in that women should be able to wear whatever skimpy clothing they need to feel empowered (skimpier the better, get REALLY empowered) and not get attacked for it, the same as a person who wears items (valuables) that make themselves attractive to a certain type of person (mugger) should be free from attack by said person. That said, be aware of where you are and who is around you and your life will run more smoothly.

Yes but you implied that skimpy clothes increases the likelihood that you will be attacked, which has never, ever been the case despite the persistent myth that it's a relevant factor. You're also implying that women going about their lives enjoying themselves is akin to going into a bad neighborhood wearing valuables. Yea, you have a right to do it, but if you get attacked you probably could have prevented it.

That's bullshiat. It's ugly, ugly bullshiat.

It also gets REALLY frustrating to hear men advocate that women display constant vigilance lest we be raped and then in the same breath be all "It's really unfair that women view all men as potential rapists."

Genevieve Marie:liam76: If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.

liam76: Earlier where? I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.It had nothing to do with alcohol.

That was not my description of campus violence. That was me explaining someone else's views on campus violence- views I disagreed with.

Well, guess what? That is no excuse to take away people's rights. An extremely tiny percentage of men pull that crap. Wonder Woman here wants all men to be treated as guilty because of the tiny few. That is not how we operate in this country.

meow said the dog:doglover: Meanwhile, a man gets accused of rape, but proven innocent later, people still get all bent outta shape and want to lynch him years after because accusations make headlines but retractions get printed on the back page.

You supporting rapists isn't really surprising. At all.

kendelrio: Having had a sister raped, several friends raped, yes,

Wow, did you just pull the "I have Black friends" but replaced Black with raped? Awesome.

You know, you accusing him of supporting rapists when his example states the man is innocent just proves his point.

Genevieve Marie:Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying.

Not necessarily. I think it is impossible to divide sexual behaviour neatly into two categories: "definitely not rape" and "definitely rape". There is a h-u-u-u-g-e grey area in the middle. Drinking to relax inhibitions or to bypass consent? Seduction or coercion? Harassment or persistence? Different people can have different and wholly honest views of the same event, and those different and wholly honest views can change over time.

I very much doubt that there are many deliberate false accusations of rape. However, I think there may be a significant number of mistaken accusations of rape, where one party to an encounter perceives things, perhaps on reflection (and there is nothing wrong with changing your views on reflection) very differently from the other.

How many people here can honestly say that they have never, ever had a sexual encounter of any sort which they later regretted? Dealing with that is part of growing up, and growing as a sexual being. It cheapens the experience of those who really have suffered rape to throw the word around too loosely.

Genevieve Marie:liam76: If you realized he raped you, then yes it clearly was rape.

Yes, but when you're hungover and sick and it's someone you know and you're an 18 or 19 year old kid away from home the first time, your first thought is not going to be "I'll go straight to the police, and share this incredibly scary and humiliating experience and they will believe me, and once I get through the next four hours of having my vagina, mouth and anus swabbed for fluids in the presence of at least two nurses and then have all my clothes confiscated and my body hair combed, everything is going to be ok"

Some women can pull that off. A lot of women go straight into traumatic shut down mode, and people who don't understand why that is have some major issues with empathizing with others.

liam76: Earlier where? I thought you were speaking of the scenario you listed higher up in that post.It had nothing to do with alcohol.

That was not my description of campus violence. That was me explaining someone else's views on campus violence- views I disagreed with.

So if she doesn't want to go through a legal search, her word should be enough? A possibly innocent persons freedom is worth less than a medical examination because said examination could be embarrassing? What do you suggest as an alternative? Why shouldn't SHE have to move dorms? It couldn't be because she's full of shiat. If some dude were after me, it seems more logical for me to move somewhere, rather than move him whlle he still knows where I live.

rpm:Dokushin: You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape." Just like no one had to tell me not to murder. Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape

You don't have to tell people? Then why does it work?

I wonder if maybe the image of a girl passed out on a couch waiting to be raped served a warning to other would-be rape victims that maybe they shouldn't drink so much that they pass out on a rapist's couch.

I wonder where they placed those things in the bars though. Seems like as a bar owner I'd be worried that a rape-themed poster in the middle of my bar might clash with the decor (unless it was a rape-themed bar, I guess. Hmm, business idea...). Might have been sensible to put those in the men's room, which would hopefully invalidate my theory about women seeing them.

Genevieve Marie:You don't know a whole hell of a lot about how intimate partner violence works do you?

Pro tip: very few women leave at the very first sign of violence. That in no way implies that violence did not occur. This was a shiatty, victim blaming question asked by another college age girl who hasn't had time to gather a whole lot of perspective on stuff like this.

The questions were inappropriate. Asking her to tell her story in full was acceptable. Asking for clarification on details was acceptable. Implying that because she didn't leave right away, then her story is probably false?

Not ok. Not even in the slightest. Not even a little bit. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Erm, no. A perfectly reasonable question to ask. And it's not victim blaming until you have established that there was a victim.

orbister:Genevieve Marie: Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying.

Not necessarily. I think it is impossible to divide sexual behaviour neatly into two categories: "definitely not rape" and "definitely rape". There is a h-u-u-u-g-e grey area in the middle. Drinking to relax inhibitions or to bypass consent? Seduction or coercion? Harassment or persistence? Different people can have different and wholly honest views of the same event, and those different and wholly honest views can change over time.

I very much doubt that there are many deliberate false accusations of rape. However, I think there may be a significant number of mistaken accusations of rape, where one party to an encounter perceives things, perhaps on reflection (and there is nothing wrong with changing your views on reflection) very differently from the other.

How many people here can honestly say that they have never, ever had a sexual encounter of any sort which they later regretted? Dealing with that is part of growing up, and growing as a sexual being. It cheapens the experience of those who really have suffered rape to throw the word around too loosely.

Avoiding grey area is why I'm such a big advocate of teaching consent. Of making sure people know that knowing when to say yes is just as important as knowing when to say no. That you have the right to define yourself sexually the way you want and that you have sovereignty over your own body- sovereignty that allows you to use it for pleasure and also that allows you to define the terms of how you do that. It is VITAL to teach people that from a young age.

That being said... it's pretty vile and really, really problematic that you seem to be implying that a woman who's confused by a terrible sexual encounter and who doesn't recognize it as rape immediately is "cheapening the word" by calling it what it was when she gets to a place where she can speak about it.

The idea that outsiders should define for someone else whether they were raped or not has always been an ugly idea.

Here's another link I posted earlier- this woman was very clearly raped. She also didn't recognize it as rape right away, because we send young women a lot of hellishly confusing messages about sex. Doesn't mean she shouldn't write about her experience now and call it what it was.

Genevieve Marie:A credible accusation with details? Possible backup witnesses? A gut feeling from the administration that the story checks out? I'm not sure that one can set an across the board standard of proof here. That's something that very much needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

Once again: no one has an inalienable right to attend the university of their choosing. The standard of proof is much, much lower for expulsion than it is for a criminal conviction, and that is as it should be.

Would you be content for the young woman in this case to be expelled because someone in the administration had a gut feeling that she was mistaken? After all, nobody has an inalienable right to attend the university of their choosing.

robohobo:So if she doesn't want to go through a legal search, her word should be enough? A possibly innocent persons freedom is worth less than a medical examination because said examination could be embarrassing?

No one's suggesting incarcerating people without due process. Innocent until proven guilty is the fundamental principle behind our justice system, and no one is suggesting anyone circumvent that. God, some of you guys really, really suck at seeing subtle distinctions, even when they're highly logical.

All that I stated was that universities should work with victims on a case by case basis and make arrangements to try to ensure the safety of their students in the best way possible, and that sometimes, this will probably mean inconveniences for the person accused, especially if the administration thinks it's very likely a valid accusation.

Genevieve Marie:"Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. . . .

Trying to get people who are incapable of empathy to empathize is a lost cause.

bigwf2007:Most men know that if they get drunk and pass out, something bad could happen to them. If they don't, their friends will quickly teach them a lesson.

So rape is OK? Wow. Just wow. You're a shiatty farking human being, you know that? This thread is full of shiatty farking human beings, and the world would be better off if all of you went and killed yourselves.

And nobody said it was, or should be. In general, though, people are expected in law to take responsibility for actions they take while drunk, and for knowing that drunkenness is likley to lead to a reduction in self-control. Where do we draw the line between "committing a sexual act while drunk which you would not have committed while sober" and "consenting to a sexual act while drunk to which you would not have consented while sober"?

James F. Campbell:Genevieve Marie: "Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. . . .

Trying to get people who are incapable of empathy to empathize is a lost cause.

Valid, but I'm an eternal optimist I guess. You'd think being a Fark feminist would have killed my faith in humanity by now, but it's still there.

And nobody said it was, or should be. In general, though, people are expected in law to take responsibility for actions they take while drunk, and for knowing that drunkenness is likley to lead to a reduction in self-control. Where do we draw the line between "committing a sexual act while drunk which you would not have committed while sober" and "consenting to a sexual act while drunk to which you would not have consented while sober"?

Consenting to a sexual act while drunk to which you would have not consented while sober can be legally considered rape, but that type of rape is almost never reported as such. Most women actually do recognize when they consent. But just being drunk and being near someone does not imply consent. If someone has sex with you while you're passed out and unable to consent, it's absolutely 100% rape. Read the story I linked you to. That woman was drunk. She was also most definitely raped.

Genevieve Marie:No one's suggesting incarcerating people without due process. Innocent until proven guilty is the fundamental principle behind our justice system, and no one is suggesting anyone circumvent that. God, some of you guys really, really suck at seeing subtle distinctions, even when they're highly logical.

All that I stated was that universities should work with victims on a case by case basis and make arrangements to try to ensure the safety of their students in the best way possible, and that sometimes, this will probably mean inconveniences for the person accused, especially if the administration thinks it's very likely a valid accusation.

A lot of people keep missing these key points from the article:

Landen Gambill, a sophomore at UNC, was part of a group that filed a complaint in January with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, alleging the university has routinely violated the rights of sexual assault survivors and failed to assist them in recovery after the reported abuse

This is more than one person filing a complaint against the University.

Ten days after they filed their complaint, the graduate student attorney general sent a warning to Gambill that she may have violated the school's Honor Code, Jezebel reports.

Hmmm possible retaliation by the school or a coincidence?

On Friday, Gambill got an email informing her that she was being formally charged with an Honor Code violation for "disruptive or intimidating behavior" against her alleged rapist, although she has never publicly named him

Well there goes the whole the idea that she's accusing someone without a fair trial.

Genevieve Marie:dready zim: Sorry you have a mindfark about the world but you can`t take away the rights of men on the basis of it. Humans view humans sexually, this will never change. You have to accept it.

What rights am I advocating taking away from men?

a basic one would be to be innocent until proven guilty by something more than heresay. Due process, that sort of thing.

Genevieve Marie:That attitude's been deeply ingrained in our culture for hundreds of years. Do you suggest women live in a state of perpetual fear and base our lives and our freedom of movement completely around the possibility that we might be raped?

No more than those who get their kicks from going on about "rape culture" do. I recognize that there are some streets and bars in Belfast into which it would be a thoroughly bad idea for me to go at 10pm on a Friday night. That does not mean that I should be content that these places exist, but it suggests that in the pragmatic interest of keeping my boyish good looks I should in general avoid such places.

I went and looked at it. It still only shows the gender of the person being raped, not the gender of their rapist. And once again, I never implied that woman on man rape does not exist- just that it happens a lot less frequently than man on woman rape. The numbers bear that out.

Genevieve Marie:Students lose them over all kinds of things- plagiarizing papers. Smoking in the dorms. Underage drinking. You really think rape allegations that can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt but that appear to administrators to be probable should be treated differently?

Yes. Wasn't this whole thread started because college administrators were making judgements about rape claims?

To all the "she should have went to the police otherwise it isn't true" people. I was raped. I didn't go to the police. Why? Because I was 17 and afraid. He was a football player. He was a star in our school and I was a nobody. I knew no one would believe me, or even worse they would blame me. I just wanted to move past it. It took me ten years. Are you saying I am a liar? That it never happened?

Rapes go unreported all the time. Victims are afraid. We know you will try to blame us so that you can feel better. If we are wrong or asked for it then you are all safer because you would never behave that way. You can sleep soundly thinking that women are full of shiat instead of there are men who get off on the power trip that rape is. The rapists depend on you to side with them. They know that the victim will fight an uphill battle to get justice if she/he even reports it at all. Who's going to believe that slut anyway?

I hope that none of you ever have to go through what a rape victim has, but you would understand why we don't follow the path that you feel proves legitimacy if you had.

orbister:No more than those who get their kicks from going on about "rape culture" do. I recognize that there are some streets and bars in Belfast into which it would be a thoroughly bad idea for me to go at 10pm on a Friday night. That does not mean that I should be content that these places exist, but it suggests that in the pragmatic interest of keeping my boyish good looks I should in general avoid such places.

Which means you have to avoid certain bars. That's a super minor inconvenience. Sadly, I cannot just detach my vagina and leave it at home for safe keeping. It kind of goes where I go. And the threat of rape? Isn't confined to one shady bar district downtown. It's a risk at all times. People get raped by partners, friends, business associates, casual acquaintances, professors, and strangers. What's your solution here?

Should women treat every single person we meet like a potential predator at all times? Should we never leave the house without an accompanying male relative? (And hope we have good ones, because man, it's going to suck if it turns out that guy's a rapist) What's your practical solution for how women should avoid rape without letting the potential for it to totally rule our lives?

Weaver95:skullkrusher:skullkrusher: Sure, she might not be mentioning the guy's name in public but do you really think his identity is a secret?

and you ignored me. Funny how that works.

me; the issue is the university.you: 'the sky sure is blue today. isn't it blue? my, it's blue.'me: hello? over here? we were talking about the university's actions, remember?'you: 'I like toast.'me: *sigh*

orbister:Genevieve Marie: ALL rape involves force. The type of force and how it's used varies.

So you're saying that if no force was involved, it's never rape?

You've either got reading comprehension issues or you truly suck at grasping subtle points. By force I don't mean just physical violence. Force can be going after someone who is physically incapacitated. It can be coercing someone in a way that makes them feel like they have no real choice. Rape is always a controlling thing to do, and it always involves some type of force, be it physical, psychological or chemical.

orbister:Genevieve Marie: Students lose them over all kinds of things- plagiarizing papers. Smoking in the dorms. Underage drinking. You really think rape allegations that can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt but that appear to administrators to be probable should be treated differently?

Yes. Wasn't this whole thread started because college administrators were making judgements about rape claims?

Well, at least UNC finally realized that rape isn't an offense that's on a level with plagiarizing a paper or smoking in campus housing.

Tat'dGreaser:Well there goes the whole the idea that she's accusing someone without a fair trial.

The problem with what you're saying is REALITY. And today's reality is that kids these days all seem to have between 500 and 2000 facebook friends and when Sally accuses her boyfriend Harry of rape, even without mentioning his name publicly, somewhere between several hundred and (assuming normal viral gossip spread) many thousands of people know exactly who the accused is.

Now, the student court may not have been able to find its own ass with two hands when it comes to investigating felonies, but whatever the evidence, they found the guy NOT GUILTY. That means when she goes around constantly referring to Harry as her "rapist", "attacker", or "abuser", as long as several hundred to several thousand people know his name, she's effectively harassing him.

If she doesn't like the findings of the student court, she's still free to pursue criminal charges. One might speculate at length why she refuses to hand over her voluminous evidence to the proper authorities and press charges.

Genevieve Marie:dready zim: Actually, my post was in support of things like slut walk in that women should be able to wear whatever skimpy clothing they need to feel empowered (skimpier the better, get REALLY empowered) and not get attacked for it, the same as a person who wears items (valuables) that make themselves attractive to a certain type of person (mugger) should be free from attack by said person. That said, be aware of where you are and who is around you and your life will run more smoothly.

Yes but you implied that skimpy clothes increases the likelihood that you will be attacked, which has never, ever been the case despite the persistent myth that it's a relevant factor. You're also implying that women going about their lives enjoying themselves is akin to going into a bad neighborhood wearing valuables. Yea, you have a right to do it, but if you get attacked you probably could have prevented it.

That's bullshiat. It's ugly, ugly bullshiat.

It also gets REALLY frustrating to hear men advocate that women display constant vigilance lest we be raped and then in the same breath be all "It's really unfair that women view all men as potential rapists."

No, what's really frustrating is when someone like you can't acknowledge the fact that there are behaviors that increase your risk. I should be able to walk down 8 mile at 1am with bars of gold sticking out of every pocket because no one should be looking to mug me. I should be able to have unprotected sex with anyone I want with no chance of getting HIV because anyone that has it should tell me they have it. You should be able to walk across a dark parking lot in an out of the way area while focusing on your cell phone and not paying attention to what's going on around you because no one should be out looking to rape anyone. You should be able to get passed out drunk at a party full of people and have no worries of getting raped because no one should take advantage of you. Reality doesn't work that way.

Rape, like mugging, is often a crime of opportunity. You don't have to be constantly vigilant, but there are circumstances where the risk is higher. And there are behaviors that increase that risk, therefore there are behaviors that will decrease the risk.

And your clothing could be a factor in fighting off an attack. Clothes that restrict movement will work against you, shoes that aren't easy to run in, etc. What I'm trying to tell you is to be aware of the circumstances everyday life puts you into and take steps to manage the risk.

orbister:Genevieve Marie: Students lose them over all kinds of things- plagiarizing papers. Smoking in the dorms. Underage drinking. You really think rape allegations that can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt but that appear to administrators to be probable should be treated differently?

Yes. Wasn't this whole thread started because college administrators were making judgements about rape claims?

This thread was stared because of a complaint to the department of education on behalf of 65 rape victims and the former assistant dean who supports them that UNC Chapel Hill has established a pattern of negligence when it comes to victims of sexual assault, and this includes carelessness with confidential information, a pattern of victim blaming questioning by unqualified students, and gross disregard for the well being of people who report sexual assault.

It also centered around the fact that the school is retaliating against one of the women participating in this case.

It wasn't because they were making judgment calls at all. It's because they were making such consistently terrible judgment calls.

5monkeys:To all the "she should have went to the police otherwise it isn't true" people. I was raped. I didn't go to the police. Why? Because I was 17 and afraid. He was a football player. He was a star in our school and I was a nobody. I knew no one would believe me, or even worse they would blame me. I just wanted to move past it. It took me ten years. Are you saying I am a liar? That it never happened?

Sorry to hear that. But, did you go to the school board to complain about it, or did you just keep quiet all together. Because all the things you were afraid of: nobody believing you, siding with him... All those things would have been just as likely to happen if you went to the school's honor court or the media instead of the police.

Your story is an unfortunately common one, but it doesn't seem consistent with this girl's actions. It's not that she didn't report the rape to the police. It's that she reported it to everybody except the police.

orbister:Genevieve Marie: And gah, the idea that your body is something you should constantly be aware of other people coveting is just... gah, I don't think most men can imagine what a mindfark that is.

And yet the entire fashion, cosmetic and underwear industries are built on that concept. Nobody is forced to wear a wonderbra, you know.

Genevieve Marie:That being said... it's pretty vile and really, really problematic that you seem to be implying that a woman who's confused by a terrible sexual encounter and who doesn't recognize it as rape immediately is "cheapening the word" by calling it what it was when she gets to a place where she can speak about it.

Your ad-hominem aside, you are once again trying to claim a simplistic binary reality about rape: that it can be unilaterally and accurately recognized by one party to the encounter. As you agreed, there is a grey area, and to assign all cases in that grey area to "rape" as default is without doubt cheapening the word.

Why, by the way, have you assumed that I was referring to a woman? My post was very carefully gender neutral.

Ebbelwoi:The problem with what you're saying is REALITY. And today's reality is that kids these days all seem to have between 500 and 2000 facebook friends and when Sally accuses her boyfriend Harry of rape, even without mentioning his name publicly, somewhere between several hundred and (assuming normal viral gossip spread) many thousands of people know exactly who the accused is.

I can't seem to find where this is stated in the article, or did I miss something?

Genevieve Marie:Should women treat every single person we meet like a potential predator at all times? Should we never leave the house without an accompanying male relative? (And hope we have good ones, because man, it's going to suck if it turns out that guy's a rapist) What's your practical solution for how women should avoid rape without letting the potential for it to totally rule our lives?

Turning the "Rampant Paranoia" dial down below 11 would make a good start. Oh, and don't get drunk. That goes for men too, of course.

Genevieve Marie:And once again, I never implied that woman on man rape does not exist- just that it happens a lot less frequently than man on woman rape. The numbers bear that out.

I'm not implying that you are erasing it entirely, but I disagree with your assertion on frequency.

I live in a country that does not recognize female rapists by law (Rape is a crime that can only be comitted with a penis, as per the UK's Sexual Assault Act 2003). When my friend was tied to a bed (as a child, no less) and repeatedly sexually assaulted by his (female) childminder? Not rape.

Statistics that track 'rapists' are always going to be slanted in this country until this definition is changed. We can attempt to extrapolate from other sources, but this just fuzzies up statistics that are already hard to establish due to reporting rates and other factors.

Do not get me wrong here, I believe 'the establishment' is failing both male and female victims.

Callous:ou should be able to get passed out drunk at a party full of people and have no worries of getting raped because no one should take advantage of you. Reality doesn't work that way.

Rape, like mugging, is often a crime of opportunity. You don't have to be constantly vigilant, but there are circumstances where the risk is higher. And there are behaviors that increase that risk, therefore there are behaviors that will decrease the risk.

And your clothing could be a factor in fighting off an attack. Clothes that restrict movement will work against you, shoes that aren't easy to run in, etc. What I'm trying to tell you is to be aware of the circumstances everyday life puts you into and take steps to manage the risk.

I... really should stop being surprised that there are men who think these are HUGE REVELATIONS FOR WOMEN ZOMG. You mean some situations present higher risks than others? Oh man, thank you so much for that revelation. I've never considered that perspective before, no sirree. I should do something about this?

Maybe I should start carrying around pepper spray, trying not to be caught alone in an elevator with a guy I don't know, avoiding parking garage stair wells, not walking too close to rows of cars in case someone is hiding between them, checking over my shoulder with a compact mirror if I'm worried someone is lurking behind me, making sure i never leave my drink unattended, having a friend walk me to my car at night, calling my boyfriend when I leave somewhere so he knows when I should be home. Oh! And when I was single, I probably should have been making sure a friend always knew where I was when I want on dates with someone. Oh and I should definitely find a buddy at parties and make sure we watch out for each other.

Oh wait. That's all the shiat I've done since I was a teenager. Like almost every other woman I know.

But please. Share a few more earth shattering revelations about how reality works and what it's like to be a woman.

Genevieve Marie:orbister: Genevieve Marie: And gah, the idea that your body is something you should constantly be aware of other people coveting is just... gah, I don't think most men can imagine what a mindfark that is.

And yet the entire fashion, cosmetic and underwear industries are built on that concept. Nobody is forced to wear a wonderbra, you know.

Genevieve Marie:You've either got reading comprehension issues or you truly suck at grasping subtle points. By force I don't mean just physical violence. Force can be going after someone who is physically incapacitated. It can be coercing someone in a way that makes them feel like they have no real choice. Rape is always a controlling thing to do, and it always involves some type of force, be it physical, psychological or chemical.

Another disappointing ad-hominem. And now you're just defining "force" so widely as to be totally meaningless.

Quinsisdos:Statistics that track 'rapists' are always going to be slanted in this country until this definition is changed. We can attempt to extrapolate from other sources, but this just fuzzies up statistics that are already hard to establish due to reporting rates and other factors.

Do not get me wrong here, I believe 'the establishment' is failing both male and female victims.

And I'd agree with that. Thankfully, the rules were revised here and that kind of rape IS recognized... especially when committed on a child. Actually, from what I understand, pedophilia is one of the areas where female rapists can be statistically significant. Men are at their most vulnerable to most types of sexual assault as young children.

Genevieve Marie:orbister: No more than those who get their kicks from going on about "rape culture" do. I recognize that there are some streets and bars in Belfast into which it would be a thoroughly bad idea for me to go at 10pm on a Friday night. That does not mean that I should be content that these places exist, but it suggests that in the pragmatic interest of keeping my boyish good looks I should in general avoid such places.

Which means you have to avoid certain bars. That's a super minor inconvenience. Sadly, I cannot just detach my vagina and leave it at home for safe keeping. It kind of goes where I go. And the threat of rape? Isn't confined to one shady bar district downtown. It's a risk at all times. People get raped by partners, friends, business associates, casual acquaintances, professors, and strangers. What's your solution here?

Should women treat every single person we meet like a potential predator at all times? Should we never leave the house without an accompanying male relative? (And hope we have good ones, because man, it's going to suck if it turns out that guy's a rapist) What's your practical solution for how women should avoid rape without letting the potential for it to totally rule our lives?

Go to the gym on a regular basis, maybe even take a self-defense class. Carry a gun. Carry pepper spray. Being a victim of attempted rape is a way better alternative than being a victim of successful rape.

And yeah, the obvious advice like "hold on to your drink at frat parties" and "don't walk down that sketchy alley by yourself late at night" aren't going to avoid every potential rape, but certainly a few, and I wouldn't say either of those rises to the level of "totally ruling your lives".