Mr. Katz in a recent update of his web page has added two short notes, one
of which (including a reference from an Arabic dictionary) is a refutation
of the meaning of the word "Thumma", as explained by Mr.
Desmond and
the other* (also
including a reference from the dictionary) a refutation of the meaning of the
word "yawm", as I tried to explain it in my article.

Mr. Katz, briefly stating his point of view about "Thumma"
writes:

I just realized something, it's kind of funny actually how I'm
trying to prove that Thumma must indicate sequence and order using a
dictionary. It [is] just like trying to prove in English that "then"
indicates sequence and order. You know, if you come up to an Arab and ask him
if Thumma may not indicate sequence or order he'll just laugh.

I do agree with Mr. Katz that it would be rather funny if someone tried
proving that the word "then" (in the English language) indicates
sequence and order. I also agree that it would be exactly the same case for
"thumma" in the Arabic language. But unfortunately what Mr.
Katz seems to be forgetting is that the point under consideration is not whether
"then" (in the English language) or "thumma" (in the Arabic
language) is used to indicate "sequence and order" or not. The point
under consideration is whether "thumma" in the Arabic language is used
ONLY to indicate "sequence and order". As far as the
"Arab" who would "laugh" at some one who asks him: "
whether there could be a 'Thumma' which may not indicate sequence or
order", I would have serious doubts about his being an Arab (or maybe he
would not be laughing, maybe he would just be showing his teeth to hide his
shame for not knowing good Arabic!!!), just as I would have serious doubts about
the Englishman who says that the word "then" in the English language,
must indicate "sequence and order" (I am sure Mr. Katz is not saying
so.... although he is certainly implying so).

Before looking at "Thumma" in the Arabic language, let us have a
look at "then" in the English language. The word "then" in
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary" is given to mean:

then ... 1 at that time 2 a:
Soon after that: next in order of time (walked to the door, then
turned) b: following next after in order of
position, narration or enumeration: being next in a series (first came the
clowns, then came the elephants) c:in
addition: BESIDES (then there is the interest to be paid)13 a (1): in that case (take it then, if you want it so much)
(2): used after but to qualify or offset a preceding statement (she
lost the race, but then she never really expected to win)
b: according to that: as may be inferred (your mind is made up, then)
c: as it appears: by way of summing up (the cause of the accident, then,
is established) d: as a necessary consequence (if the
angles are equal, then the complements are equal)...then: that time (since then, he has been more cautious)then: existing or acting at or belonging to the time mentioned (the then
secretary of state)

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Encyclopedic Dictionary states:

then ... 1 (referring to past or future time) (a)
at that time: We were living in Wales then. oI was still married to my first husband then. oSee you on Thursday -- we'll be able to discuss it then. oJackie Kennedy, as she then was, was still only in her twenties.
o [attrib] The then Prime Minister took her husband
with her on all her travels. (b) next; after that;
afterwards: I'll have soup first and then the chicken. oThe liquid turned green and then brown. o We had
a week in Rome and then went to Vienna. o(c)
(used after a preposition) that time: From then on he refused to
talk about it. oWe'll have to manage without a TV
until then. oShe'll have retired by then...
2and also: There are the vegetables to peel and the soup
to heat. Then there's the table to lay and the wine to cool. oI've sent cards to all my family. Then there's your family and the
neighbours.23 in that case; therefore: If its not on the table then
it will be in the drawer. oOffer to take him out
for lunch, then (ie as a result of this) he'll feel in a better
mood. oHe'll be looking for a secretary then?...

I don't think any more evdence shall be required by Mr. Katz or any one else
to the effect that the word "then" in the English language is not used
ONLY to indicate "sequence and order".

Now let us turn to "Thumma". Mr Katz says that it is obvious
that "Thumma" must indicate sequence and order. Let us have a closer
look at his claim.

Mohammad Jama'l al-Din ibn Ma'lik, in his famous poetic book on Arabic
Grammar "alfiah al-Ma'lik", has started his book with the following
poetic verse:

It is obvious that the word "thumma" has been used in the
same meaning as given in 2(c) and 2 in the two respective quotations from the
dictionaries. I would request Mr. Katz to explain the meaning of "thumma"
in this poetic verse, by holding it to necessarily indicate "sequence and
order" (ie the meaning of "then" as given in 2(a) and 1(b) in the
two respective quotations).

Moreover, the Qur'an has clearly used the word "thumma" in
meanings other than that which is given in the dictionary quoted by Mr. Katz.

In Al-An`aam 6: 1, the Qur'an says:

'Praise be to Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the
darknesses and the light, still those who do not believe,
ascribe equals to Him.'

The word "thumma" in this verse has been used in the meaning
"even after this" or even more simply stated, in the meaning:
"still". The verse simply refuses to accept the meaning stated
by the dictionary that Mr. Katz has quoted.

In the very next verse again, the word "thumma" is not used
in the meaning that the dictionary states. The Qur'an says:

The first "thumma", is used in exactly the same meaning
which is given by the dictionary quoted by Mr. Katz. While the second "thumma"
is used in the same meaning as given for verse 6: 1 above. The Qur'an has used
this word in a number of other places, one of which is: al-Taubah 9: 126.

Then again, in the same Surah, verse 8, "thumma" has
been used in exactly the same meaning as given in 1 and 1(a) in the two
respective English dictionaries cited above. 6: 8 reads as:

The Qur'an has used the "thumma", in the same meaning as
given above in a number of other places. (For instance see: Yunus 10: 103, al-a`la'
87: 11 - 13)

Then again, in Al-balad 90: 11 - 17, "thumma" has
been used in yet another meaning:

'But he did not scale the height. What do you know what the height is?
Freeing of a bondsman, feeding of an orphaned relative or a distressed poor,
in times of hunger. Moreover the person be from amongst those
who believe...'.

In this verse, it is more than obvious that "thumma" is used
exactly in the same meaning as given in 2 (c) and 2, in the two respective
dictionaries cited above.

The use of the word "thumma" in meanings other
than those stated by the dictionary (cited by Mr. Katz) is also quite apparent
in the Arabic poetry. I present below a few examples only from "Hamasah"
-- a collection of Arabic poetry -- that should suffice as evidence to this
effect. One of the poets is reported to have said3:

'How many problems have fallen on me, I faced them all
patiently and "still" I did not bow before them.'

In the above poetic verse, "thumma" has been
used in the same meaning as in the Qur'anic verses 6: 1 and 6: 2 above.

"They were [my] excellent brothers [and they were all
killed]. And what is hand but a finger, then another". (ie
I am like a hand who has lost all its fingers except one, thus I do not
deserve to be called a hand anymore).

These Qur'anic and poetic verses adequately evidence the fact that the
dictionary cited by Mr. Katz does not give a comprehensive usage of the word
"thumma". These dictionaries are based on the very sources that
I have quoted here, these examples are thus far more authentic then any
dictionary. Just in case, Mr. Katz is still in need of a quote from a
dictionary, I present below one such citation as well.

Al-Mawrid -- the common Arabic-English dictionary -- has
explained the word "thumma" as:

Besides this, the famous dictionary, "Al-Qa'moos al-muheet"
may also be seen. This should suffice as evidence for the fact that "thumma"
is used in a number of other meanings besides the one which Mr. Katz has
mentioned.

The case of the word yawm has already been presented in
my
response to "The
Length of God's days", the quotations there are sufficient for
believing that like the word "thumma", the word "yawm"
has also been inadequately explained in the cited dictionary. Besides those
quotations, the reader may also consider the explanations given in "Lisa'n
al-Arab", "Aqrab al-Mawa'rid", "Al-Munjad", "La'roos",
"Al-Nihayah", and "Al-Ra'yed".

1- The reader is requested to compare this
meaning of "then" with the meaning that is ascribed to "thumma"
in the statements under consideration by Mr. Desmond. The similarity is obvious.

2- The reader is requested to compare this
meaning of "then" with the meaning that is ascribed to "thumma"
in the statements under consideration by Mr. Desmond. The similarity is obvious.

*- The reader should note that the
referred dictionary, although does not give a comprehensive meaning of the word
"Thumma", but as I have tried to make the point in my
response to Mr. Newton's "Grammatical
Errors in the Qur'an", has based its meanings on a verse of the Qur'an.