Trouble logging in?We were forced to invalidate all account passwords. You will have to reset your password to login. If you have trouble resetting your password, please send us a message with as much helpful information as possible, such as your username and any email addresses you may have used to register. Whatever you do, please do not create a new account. That is not the right solution, and it is against our forum rules to own multiple accounts.

Are people stillreferring to Homu's dedication to Madoka an obsession? Seriously!

After four time-lines of hell surely those 'obsessive' feelings of T1 have matured(Homu has matured).

What her feelings are now for Madoka are no longer a simple obsession!

Someone sure is seriously against HomuMado!

And while it's not very clear, there is some differences in the way Madoka treated Homu compared to the others. The CT is tricky because Homu put on a cold front towards Madoka and that is why their relationship is all kinds of messed up!

But the thing is, Madoka does indeed know Homura. She dreams of her and has some deja vu sense around her.

The timelines don't seem to cancel out 100%.

And you seem to misunderstand Madoka. She's not someone who casually makes friends and that's it. The way she acts seems to suggest that she values each one of them a great deal. To the point that her own life is worthless next to theirs and that she would sacrifice herself for anyone of them. So I don't see why a reciprocative bond on Madoka's part is impossible.

As you say, Madoka does indeed value her friends, and a reciprocal relationship with Homura is possible.

All I am saying is that as of yet, nothing in the way that Madoka has treated Homura in any of the timelines suggests that Homura is to her anything other than another good friend among others.

That can certainly change: as Triple R suggests, perhaps when Madoka learns of Homura's great sacrifices on her behalf she will then think of Homura in a new, distinctive way.

But a speculation about the conclusion that requires this more elevated relationship already or subconsciously or retrospectively to exist is simply mistaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Madoka having a caring and friendly attachment to a lot of people, while Homura has a passionate attachment to Madoka and Madoka alone, does not preclude the two sharing a particularly deep friendship, or even a romance.

This is of course true.

I wonder why people imagine "a particularly deep friendship" between Madoka and Homura? It must have to do with Homura, I think: she is a heroic figure of tragic love, always trying and failing to protect the person she loves, and yet keeping on with her efforts regardless. I think we want to reward that extraordinary devotion, by envisaging Madoka in a way that she can or will reciprocate Homura's grand passion.

If that is so, all I can say is that this demand from the audience has nothing to do with Madoka herself by definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think Madoka was simply stunned by Homura's emotional breakdown in front of her, and didn't know what to make of it, since it was such a sharp contrast to the largely cold Homura of Timeline 5. As such, Madoka placed her focus back on the pressing issue of finding Sayaka and helping her.

Good comeback. I buy it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if this anime doesn't result in a Homura/Madoka romance, but I don't think it's something that should be completely ruled out, either. I also think that Madoka is not at all the sort of person who would make the kind of very harsh criticisms of Homura that you can picture her making (unless that was
tongue-in-cheek on your part, in which case, very funny ).

I was being funny, but only half so, since the lines from the episode preview are very likely Madoka's, spoken, don't you think, while she criticizes Homura for not doing more to help Sayaka, et al? Should Madoka find out about Homura's efforts on her behalf, I don't think she will simply melt into Homura's arms--the issue of why Homura didn't do more to help Madoka's other friends is still out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that if somebody went to great lengths to try to save Madoka from a very harmful situation (and Homura has unquestionably done that), that Madoka would be very moved by that.

It is certainly possible. There is an opening for the writers to go in this direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No. And you know it, so I don't know why you're asking that. The bond between Homura and Madoka which transcends time is the promise they shared. And note that, since Madoka was the one who requested to be saved, Homura's hope is actually Madoka's hope. So this is actually about Madoka understanding Madoka. Homura is somehow the link between them, the one who carries the promise, which is Madoka's hope.

So, when/if Madoka actually "remembers" Homura, and the promise they shared, she'll be able to understand herself as if she was looking at her own reflection in a mirror, a reflection that is much Homura as is Madoka herself. This concept is great, if you thing about it. Its actual beauty resides in how it shows there's more "magic" in a promise between two friends than it a contract with an emissary of a highly advanced alien race. The fact that this alien has no feelings is the more poignant. It harks back to the fact that in the end, magic is just emotion.

The reason I asked was that I wanted to work out a rationale for why Homura and Madoka should merit the miracle you envisage. Why should this particular shared promise matter, to the point that a miracle is accomplished on its account? Without some sort of context, such a miracle would only be just another deus-ex-machina conclusion. It is easier to accept if there is some sort of strong existing relationship between the two girls.

However, I don't believe such a strong relationship exists, or at least, not one beyond the level of ordinary friendship. It might exist on Homura's side, since she has suffered extraordinarily across the timelines for Madoka's sake. It does not exist however on Madoka's side. That makes the miracle you anticipate either less likely, or that much more miraculous.

I agree with Triple R--your description of Madoka looking at herself through Homura is beautiful and striking. I would love to see this animated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Don't you think all these things are somewhat related? I mean, you can only act for yourself, rather than letting others act for you, if you are confident that you can actually act for yourself. Otherwise you'd lose before the start. Likewise, you can only make a life-long commitment to another person if you see yourself as that person's equal, otherwise it would be a commitment based on dependence (even if it's only emotional), which can't possible be seen as "growing up".

In the end, a sense of self-worth is the core element of any individual, don't you think?

I listed these modes of growing up since I see them as characteristic of Homura: they describe the particular ways she grows up across the timelines. Her trajectory is also along the arc of self-knowledge, but what Homura learns about herself as a magical girl is terrible and dark.

Homura represents a cautionary tale, to teach us that growing up and gaining self-knowledge are not necessarily positive and fortunate experiences.

I do not believe Homura possesses an elevated sense of self-worth. Much more a core element for her is her iron will.

I was being funny, but only half so, since the lines from the episode preview are very likely Madoka's, spoken, don't you think, while she criticizes Homura for not doing more to help Sayaka, et al? Should Madoka find out about Homura's efforts on her behalf, I don't think she will simply melt into Homura's arms--the issue of why Homura didn't do more to help Madoka's other friends is still out there.

I disagree with this. The lines are from Madoka's perspective no doubt, but I'm pretty sure she's talking to QB, not Homura. Why? Because she said "anoko tachi" (lit: those girls) which made it seem like she's talking about girls she doesn't know. Also, she said "mimamori" instead of just "mamori", meaning "watching over" instead of "protecting".

So, who is the one who has been constantly "watching over" girls (including ones Madoka might not know) while "feeling" nothing about it, as Madoka claims?

Yes, the answer is most likely the obvious one: QB. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

The reason I asked was that I wanted to work out a rationale for why Homura and Madoka should merit the miracle you envisage. Why should this particular shared promise matter, to the point that a miracle is accomplished on its account? Without some sort of context, such a miracle would only be just another deus-ex-machina conclusion. It is easier to accept if there is some sort of strong existing relationship between the two girls.

Obviously, it's because that promise was made in the most highly emotional scene in the freaking series, which I think we can agree on (if not, go watch it again), and, you know, magic is emotion!!

Madoka basically begs for Homura to go back in time and save her, with tears all over her face. Homura frantically promise she'll do it no matter what, also crying rivers.

Do you really think it would be farfeched that all those feelings (and feelings are MAGIC) at that moment could trigger a real miracle? And we're talking Madoka here, who's said to have lots of potential, and also Homura, whose wish was strong enough to bend the laws of the universe.

So yeah, their feelings (magic) which were running wild at the moment, could quite possible create a miracle IMO.

At any rate, since the articles available hint to it, I suppose the possibility exists.

Obviously, it's because that promise was made in the most highly emotional scene in the freaking series, which I think we can agree on (if not, go watch it again), and, you know, magic is emotion!!

I agree. I'll even go out on a limb here and suggest that ALL the girls are emotionally tied together. Clearly the way we've seen the system work shows an emphasis on Magical Girls not being together in groups, but these five particular girls share a close destiny and bond through these time loops.

Homura has definitely become colder each time, and Madoka is the key figure in the group, but I don't believe that Homura has any less "love" for the other three girls, it's just that Madoka is figuratively and literally the most important person to her and her mission right now.

Remember that she tried to warn all of them about Kyubey. She was part of the fight to bring back Sayaka the first time. She grieved for each of them, and even in the current time when she has acted the coldest she has tried to reach out and save every one of them. She tried to help Mami, she tried to help Sayaka, she tried to work with Kyoko, she's trying to save Madoka.

It may seem that Homura has no one but Madoka in her heart, but I don't think that is the case at all.

As you say, Madoka does indeed value her friends, and a reciprocal relationship with Homura is possible.

All I am saying is that as of yet, nothing in the way that Madoka has treated Homura in any of the timelines suggests that Homura is to her anything other than another good friend among others.

That can certainly change: as Triple R suggests, perhaps when Madoka learns of Homura's great sacrifices on her behalf she will then think of Homura in a new, distinctive way.

But a speculation about the conclusion that requires this more elevated relationship already or subconsciously or retrospectively to exist is simply mistaken.

This is of course true.

I wonder why people imagine "a particularly deep friendship" between Madoka and Homura? It must have to do with Homura, I think: she is a heroic figure of tragic love, always trying and failing to protect the person she loves, and yet keeping on with her efforts regardless. I think we want to reward that extraordinary devotion, by envisaging Madoka in a way that she can or will reciprocate Homura's grand passion.

If that is so, all I can say is that this demand from the audience has nothing to do with Madoka herself by definition.

Ah true Madoka currently does not view her s anything more than a good friend but see, she views Kyouko and Sayaka the same as well and look at her reaction to their fates. She has declared Kyuube her enemy so is even sooner that she will finally take action.

Is not really....deep passionate love or something that drives Homura. More like steel loyalty. You know, the kind you share with a close friend and you know something horrible is going to happen to him and so you do everything in your power to try and avert it.

I disagree with this. The lines are from Madoka's perspective no doubt, but I'm pretty sure she's talking to QB, not Homura. Why? Because she said "anoko tachi" (lit: those girls) which made it seem like she's talking about girls she doesn't know. Also, she said "mimamori" instead of just "mamori", meaning "watching over" instead of "protecting".

So, who is the one who has been constantly "watching over" girls (including ones Madoka might not know) while "feeling" nothing about it, as Madoka claims?

Yes, the answer is most likely the obvious one: QB. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Thank you. I appreciate your analysis of the actual Japanese.

The English translation doesn't seem to fit QB. Madoka assumes the listener has a capacity for feeling and for understanding others' pain--"Did you not feel anything watching over them all that time? Did you not try to understand how much pain everyone was in?"--but we know and Madoka knows QB is incapable of any such emotional sympathy. More than that, QB is an antagonist, an enemy, someone who has tricked the girls: would Madoka ever think of him as even considering the girls' welfare?

I defer to your superior understanding of Japanese. All the same, something doesn't make sense here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Obviously, it's because that promise was made in the most highly emotional scene in the freaking series, which I think we can agree on (if not, go watch it again), and, you know, magic is emotion!!

Madoka basically begs for Homura to go back in time and save her, with tear all over her face. Homura frantically promise she'll do it no matter what, also crying rivers.

Do you really think it would be farfeched that all those feelings (and feelings are MAGIC) at that moment could trigger a real miracle? And we're talking Madoka here, who's said to have lots of potential, and also Homura, whose wish was strong enough to bend the laws of the universe.

So yeah, their feelings (magic) which were running wild at the moment, could quite possible create a miracle IMO.

At any rate, since the articles available hint to it, I suppose the possibility exist.

OK, this makes sense. It is clear the promise creates a destiny for Homura, since her promise is made real in her own, transformed personality, as she becomes a hardened woman, committed to repeating the timelines endlessly, until she finds a way to save Madoka. So the promise may likewise create a destiny for Madoka as well. It is a little awkward that it is on time-delay, two timelines back, but that may be simply a matter of the writers waiting to bring it out for maximum dramatic effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace

Homura has definitely become colder each time, and Madoka is the key figure in the group, but I don't believe that Homura has any less "love" for the other three girls, it's just that Madoka is figuratively and literally the most important person to her and her mission right now.

Remember that she tried to warn all of them about Kyubey. She was part of the fight to bring back Sayaka the first time. She grieved for each of them, and even in the current time when she has acted the coldest she has tried to reach out and save every one of them. She tried to help Mami, she tried to help Sayaka, she tried to work with Kyoko, she's trying to save Madoka.

It may seem that Homura has no one but Madoka in her heart, but I don't think that is the case at all.

All true, but...

It's hard to reconcile all this with that brutal conversation Homura has with Sayaka in episode eight. As when Homura says, "You're sharp. / In fact, you're exactly correct. / I don't want to help you. / I simply don't want Madoka to have to watch you fall." Then she threatens to kill Sayaka: "I'll kill you myself right now, Sayaka Miki."

At times Homura does seem to act on behalf of all of the girls, as you say, and at others it seems she does so only for Madoka's sake. I hesitate to say it, but the anime's characterization of Homura does not seem consistent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Is not really....deep passionate love or something that drives Homura. More like steel loyalty. You know, the kind you share with a close friend and you know something horrible is going to happen to him and so you do everything in your power to try and avert it.

Yes, I agree. Homura's feelings are not romantic, but rather an extreme expression of loyalty to Madoka and dedication to the task of saving her.

Homura has become the creature of her own wish. The feelings she has are those necessary so that she can fulfill the wish. Think of her as an incarnation of a wish, or a machine crafted to realize a particular task, rather than as a person. She is no longer human, as she puts it. All she is is the loyalty, the amazing will, the dedication necessary to accomplish her wish.

It's hard to reconcile all this with that brutal conversation Homura has with Sayaka in episode eight. As when Homura says, "You're sharp. / In fact, you're exactly correct. / I don't want to help you. / I simply don't want Madoka to have to watch you fall." Then she threatens to kill Sayaka: "I'll kill you myself right now, Sayaka Miki."

At times Homura does seem to act on behalf of all of the girls, as you say, and at others it seems she does so only for Madoka's sake. I hesitate to say it, but the anime's characterization of Homura does not seem consistent.

Reverse psychology. If Homura wanted to kill Sayaka, it would have been trivial. She first offered the nice way, and got rejected, then decided to try the tough approach. Personally I think if Kyoko hadn't interfered it would have worked. Rewatch the scene again and note the difference in Sayaka's expressions before/during/after the part where Homura's gem glows like crazy. There's a moment where Sayaka almost snaps out of her stupor.

I'm not saying that Homura values the other girls like she values Madoka. It's pretty clear that Madoka is on a pedestal compared to them (and let's be honest, even in real life we value our friends in different ways). It's easy to write her interventions off as simply being only for Madoka's sake, but like I said I don't think that is entirely true. It would make Homura into a truly heartless person, no better than Kyubey. She's definitely closed her heart....but I don't think she's lost her humanity yet.

I still feel like Homura's closed her heart to the other girls simply as a matter of survival. Losing Madoka over and over and over again has been devastating enough. I don't think she can psychologically afford to remain attached to anyone else. In episode 4, she says (paraphrasing) that a magical girl survives by fighting for her wish, and abandoning everything else. If she just didn't care about them, she probably wouldn't need to close herself off to them. That's just how I read her, anyway.

i don't know if someone pointed this one out yet but i was wondering why homura is the only one madoka remembers in her dream? does this has something to do with her wish in tl4? homu is quite far. we did not hear her screaming about her warnings. that could symbolize their distance.

but in ep1, upon homu's class introduction, mado immediately recognizes homu and makes a connection regarding her dream a night before. right?

how about kyubey? mado was talking with him in her dream, almost at arm's length. yet she doesn't recognize him when she met him asking for help. "This guy was in my dream too!" not?

Yeah, we have talked about this, quite extensively actually. The most likely possibility is that the promise they shared in timeline 3 somehow created a bond between them that transcends time and space.

Yeah, we have talked about this, quite extensively actually. The most likely possibility is that the promise they shared in timeline 3 somehow created a bond between them that transcends time and space.

Reverse psychology. If Homura wanted to kill Sayaka, it would have been trivial. She first offered the nice way, and got rejected, then decided to try the tough approach. Personally I think if Kyoko hadn't interfered it would have worked. Rewatch the scene again and note the difference in Sayaka's expressions before/during/after the part where Homura's gem glows like crazy. There's a moment where Sayaka almost snaps out of her stupor.

I'm not saying that Homura values the other girls like she values Madoka. It's pretty clear that Madoka is on a pedestal compared to them (and let's be honest, even in real life we value our friends in different ways). It's easy to write her interventions off as simply being only for Madoka's sake, but like I said I don't think that is entirely true. It would make Homura into a truly heartless person, no better than Kyubey. She's definitely closed her heart....but I don't think she's lost her humanity yet.

Yet in this case, I think she was serious about killing Sayaka. Like...dead serious. I mean, seeing her die so many times already, I don't know if Homura even cares about anyone besides Madoka anymore....

Quote:

Yes, I agree. Homura's feelings are not romantic, but rather an extreme expression of loyalty to Madoka and dedication to the task of saving her.

Homura has become the creature of her own wish. The feelings she has are those necessary so that she can fulfill the wish. Think of her as an incarnation of a wish, or a machine crafted to realize a particular task, rather than as a person. She is no longer human, as she puts it. All she is is the loyalty, the amazing will, the dedication necessary to accomplish her wish.

And after fighting again and again, she becomes the tired old war-horse that IS the war. That cannot stop until the conclusion has been reached.

Reverse psychology. If Homura wanted to kill Sayaka, it would have been trivial. She first offered the nice way, and got rejected, then decided to try the tough approach. Personally I think if Kyoko hadn't interfered it would have worked. Rewatch the scene again and note the difference in Sayaka's expressions before/during/after the part where Homura's gem glows like crazy. There's a moment where Sayaka almost snaps out of her stupor.

I'm not saying that Homura values the other girls like she values Madoka. It's pretty clear that Madoka is on a pedestal compared to them (and let's be honest, even in real life we value our friends in different ways). It's easy to write her interventions off as simply being only for Madoka's sake, but like I said I don't think that is entirely true. It would make Homura into a truly heartless person, no better than Kyubey. She's definitely closed her heart....but I don't think she's lost her humanity yet.

Reverse psychology is another weapon, another tool--it doesn't speak to Homura's motives, not even to the notion that Homura wouldn't really kill Sayaka, since the gesture can only work if Sayaka really thinks that Homura might kill her. That she would think so is damning enough, and puts Homura if not QB's league then in Kyoko's, who gets into a death fight with Sayaka which QB informs us is no joke.

Reviewing the scene I see what you mean--Sayaka appears genuinely shocked by Homura's threat. Perhaps as you say Sayaka momentarily considers the real consequences of the despairing words she has just spoken, about how "there'd be no need for me anymore. / That's fine, then." Even so, perhaps Homura's tactic just brings home to Sayaka the general brutality of the other MGs, thereby adding to the despair she already feels. When Sayaka staggers off, she appears to be worse off than at the start of their conversation.

I agree with you that Homura does retain her humanity, despite her own words disavowing it. Sayaka is wrong when she tells Homura "you look like you've given up on everything." Homura's devotion to Madoka is also her lifeline to her own best nature, and marks an essential difference between herself and Sayaka. I'm still not sure how much Homura cares for the others, though. Kyoko's assessment of Homura in episode nine--"Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end"--seems to me the only sure truth we know about her.

Yet in this case, I think she was serious about killing Sayaka. Like...dead serious. I mean, seeing her die so many times already, I don't know if Homura even cares about anyone besides Madoka anymore....

That opens up a disturbing time loop scenario, in which Homura becomes a serial killer, mysteriously offing Madoka's friends and kills Kyubey outside of Madoka's window, warning her not to make any wishes. Then she goes on, tries to fight Walpurgis herself.....and Madoka contracts during the fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

since the gesture can only work if Sayaka really thinks that Homura might kill her. That she would think so is damning enough

Well we do know that of all of them, Sayaka is the least trusting of Homura. I wouldn't be surprised that she thinks this Homura would do that, if you remember what she said about Homura after Mami died.

Quote:

When Sayaka staggers off, she appears to be worse off than at the start of their conversation.

I agree with you that Homura does retain her humanity, despite her own words disavowing it. Sayaka is wrong when she tells Homura "you look like you've given up on everything." Homura's devotion to Madoka is also her lifeline to her own best nature, and marks an essential difference between herself and Sayaka. I'm still not sure how much Homura cares for the others, though. Kyoko's assessment of Homura in episode nine--"Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end"--seems to me the only sure truth we know about her.

Any way we slice things, Homura is a much colder person in this time loop. She's also much more focused on Madoka, since she's not just her best friend but the key to everything.

I think we're differing on our opinions of specific scenes which is fine, since we're in agreement in our overall view of Homura's character.

I'm still not sure how much Homura cares for the others, though. Kyoko's assessment of Homura in episode nine--"Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end"--seems to me the only sure truth we know about her.

As a magical girl, you need something that helps you control your emotions, or you slip down the slope to witchhood. Sayaka didn't manage to find anything. Homura clings to Madoka, and Kyouko basically clings to a survival-of-the-fittest philosophy (until Sayaka upsets that). "Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end," describes Homura's philosophy, in the same way that "No wasting resources," describes Kyouko's. These are life-lines, ways to focus and stabilise your soul.

What Homura feels inside is pretty inaccessible, because she keeps it under tight control most of the time. The most obvious breech is the explosion before Madoka. But there's that gentle, melancholic "Kyouko," as she leaves her to handle witch Sayaka. There's the frustrated, resentful look she gives Sayaka, who has just turned into a magical girl.

Notice, too, that even though she hates the system and opposes Kyubey, she doesn't make it personal. She even defends Kyubey to Madoka as not being cruel, but merely having a different morality. The enemy is the system. Homura convinces herself that once you become a magical girl, you stop to matter. That goes even for Madoka; once Madoka contracts the only recourse Homura has is to re-wind time.

I'm pretty convinced Homura would have killed Sayaka, in the same way that she would, a second later, have blown up herself and Kyouko. Homura does not bluff. "I make my decision, you make yours."

And how much of that was from the fear of losing a strong ally against Walpurgis?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

As a magical girl, you need something that helps you control your emotions, or you slip down the slope to witchhood. Sayaka didn't manage to find anything. Homura clings to Madoka, and Kyouko basically clings to a survival-of-the-fittest philosophy (until Sayaka upsets that). "Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end," describes Homura's philosophy, in the same way that "No wasting resources," describes Kyouko's. These are life-lines, ways to focus and stabilise your soul.

What Homura feels inside is pretty inaccessible, because she keeps it under tight control most of the time. The most obvious breech is the explosion before Madoka. But there's that gentle, melancholic "Kyouko," as she leaves her to handle witch Sayaka. There's the frustrated, resentful look she gives Sayaka, who has just turned into a magical girl.

Notice, too, that even though she hates the system and opposes Kyubey, she doesn't make it personal. She even defends Kyubey to Madoka as not being cruel, but merely having a different morality. The enemy is the system. Homura convinces herself that once you become a magical girl, you stop to matter. That goes even for Madoka; once Madoka contracts the only recourse Homura has is to re-wind time.

I'm pretty convinced Homura would have killed Sayaka, in the same way that she would, a second later, have blown up herself and Kyouko. Homura does not bluff. "I make my decision, you make yours."