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But i also know that truth is messier or more complex. I wonder, for instance if there is any negative or down side to the work? We've, for instance, all seen Schwarzenegger's deflated muscle-body now that he is older... I wonder what happens if you stop the kind of work that gives you

Schwarzenegger changed his body into something that was not natural at all. He used steriods and some very extreme training measures to take his body beyond the limits of what was intended in nature. In away I would categorize that as abuse to be honest.

I don't pay alot of attention to him, but he does seem to still be in pretty damn good shape though for his age and I am sure it is due to the fact that he still works out, eats right...and you bet that he is still disciplined enough to do the right things to keep himself fit at his age.

What he shows is that the body is pretty resilient and forgiving really.

Personally i feel there is a difference in these training methods. You are not abusing the body, but working with it gently and encouraging it to become strong and move in ways that are within the context of natural parameters. You are simply fine tuning it to a level that is way above the average person.

Mike Sigman did caution about trying to train too hard, straining too much, or holding your breath and things like that as it will cause you problems...things like High Blood Presssure, Strokes, aneurisms. So yes, I think you can overtrain with this as well, but it will not help.

So, if you stop training, I don't see how you would realize any bad effects from training, except that your body would probably return to a state of atrophy equal to the level of what you are not doing.

Actually I feel pretty good when I do train, so not sure why you would want to stop once it starts to become a habit. The hard part is starting and developing the habits. Also hard is you need to get with someone regularly to work with that can provide you feedback and guidance I think.

p.s. Rob; re:counternutation;
That is tipping the sacrum backwards. Is that important to open up pelvis to better funnel/connect/route upper-body force to lower half? If not; why did you mention it? How u do it?

Hi Thomas,
dang. I should have specified IT in post#29 was evidence of the_changed_body, not nececessarily IT=aiki. I don't know that Not_lovely shows aiki.. but I think, fwiw that that body may be capable of it..
Come to think of it here's a question for ya (Q): Can you show/demonstrate aiki in a body by _yourself_ in an outwardly visible way? Don't you need a partner (or staff/sword/etc) to go flying(/vibrate/shake/etc) to evidence it? Hard to bring the inner to the outer in an outwardly visible way only by yourself, isn't it? (hmm...maybe not; kata; fa jin demo; yoga poses... i don't know for sure)
anyhoo..
What i think the Not_lovely clip shows is evidence of the changed body. What is see: evidence of a connected body, dantien-area initiation and the thickened middle spoken of. I think it shows evidence of what I think is Liu He (six harmonies) movement. You can see the windings..as he rides the patterns/torques on the body from one extent the other.

Let me ask you the question back, Thomas: do you think it is as I said: 1 has it, 1 doesn't? Although rightly cautious; could you say anything to compare them? The Lovely clip I think shows amazing body control and ...development... but don't necessarily see any of the changed body things that a MA would seek in there. Well i know we'd seek it ...but you know wtf i mean. I guess mostly I'd say she doesn't initiate movements by hara... they are still external. agree?
dunno...i am interested in what others have to say..

p.s. i can't see the clip you attached ("no rights where i am viewing").

p.s. i can't see the clip you attached ("no rights where i am viewing").

That is indeed your loss . . . Shakira's hips don't lie, and in fact I believe she is capable of lin kong jin . . . but that's the subject for another thread, in fact probably another forum entirely.

I think you are correct in that "it" is most clearly demonstrated with a partner or weapon. That would be where someone watching would be able to pick up on aspects of how the "IT" exponent is moving/working, aspects which would indicate "IT". We've had a number of video clips parsed over the last couple of years, on this forum and elsewhere, as to whether Ueshiba Morihei or other video subject was demonstrating "IT."

As far as watching someone simply moving their body . . . I personally cannot discern whether that person has "IT" or not. Let me get my hands on them . . . or work a weapon set with them . . . and things become much clearer (for me).

But I don't have "IT" myself and I think that seriously limits how much I can credibly discern in others. People who do have "IT" also tend to have a highly-developed "listening" sense (in Chinese, ting jin) as well . . . seems to be part of the skill set.

Can you tell us why you say one clip above has "it" and the other does not?

I frankly am very cautious about judging solely by watching someone.

Hi Thomas,
You are smart not to judge either way. Me? meh. :]
I meant to get back to you on this a while back.
I can't say why he *does* .. something about his shimmy makes me feel...all wiggly inside. And no, it's not my spidey sense tingling. It's what I've come to identify as the *right kind* of wiggly. <--I think that is a great site by the way. Lots of cool animations.

About her?..
...well..check out the results of my craptastic forensic analysis..

Noel,
Sorry I am responding to your post so late after the fact.
If you do see this; You are lucky. I would like to meet Ming some day.

His stuff has helped me immensely, as well. I should say that. Credit where credit is due.
You're lucky you have him in your corner to fix you up. Magic hands, eh?
Regarding training and your own body: Do you not find, though, that you are getting stronger; and more (albeit slightly, even?) impervious to injury?

Beginning to about 2:14 -- almost better because the poor film quality forces you to focus on the schematic aspects of the motion-- the stability of center vs. projecting motion to the periphery -- in particular, see how the motion of the hakama fits the motion of the jo ...

Nothing to do with IT really, just a coincidence that i had seen this vid and then read the question in the first post.

kvaak
Pauliina

Hi Pauliina,
Thanks for the link. It is very interesting. 85 years old, you say? She certainly is spry and light footed. It's funny; nobody ever really teaches you how to use your body...but there certainly are right and wrong ways to do things. Walking around in daily life; you certainly can see a lot of people's bad (injurious) body movement habits...that you know will cause them pain and bodily deterioration. Can you imagine how much suffering could be averted just only due to simple bad habits being reformed? That is something I find keeps recurring to me.
On a related topic: I seem to recall reading you teach AT (Alexander Technique)... could you say what the underlying reason(s) is that people lift up their chest (like Elizabeth cautions) before they move (/take a step)? I would guess that it is due to a 'disconnection' from the lower body to the upper body...and a weak core. But that is only a guess, and my unlearned opinion.
Take care,
Josh

It's even more interesting when you think that that video is ten years old and she still teaching at 95, looking pretty much the same... That's my personal ambition - to keep working until I die.

The reason people do all kinds of harmful things is usually that at some point in the past, in some way or another, it "worked" for them, it worked well enough. People generally try to the best they can with what they have and what they know... A lot of habits are learned a s a child, imitating the adults around you. You can see little girls standing in a "feminine" posture imitating grown up women who wear high heels for example years before they will wear the heels themselves. Also, " good posture" generally seems to translate into lifting the chest up, and most of us want to have "good posture", right? It's a very insidious idea I find.

In the end the "why?" doesn't matter that much I find. Often once people have learned a new way of standing and moving, they even find it difficult to recall the old one...

It's funny; nobody ever really teaches you how to use your body...but there certainly are right and wrong ways to do things. Walking around in daily life; you certainly can see a lot of people's bad (injurious) body movement habits...that you know will cause them pain and bodily deterioration. Can you imagine how much suffering could be averted just only due to simple bad habits being reformed?

Good observation, and so very true . . . which is a powerful reason for cultivating internal connection, good posture and healthy breathing.

that's what I was feeling. (i think)
"what changes have you guys noticed since doing your best to train IP/aiki?"

btw; i'm not putting those lines over on that figure there all authoratatively or anything. really. total guesses --just what i was thinking and feeling (again:i think), and i hoped interesting to people. i'm hoping to hear wassup.

The point wasn't forgetting - the point was you first learn a new way of moving, and after you have done that, it can be hard to remember what you used to do. You can't just decide to forget something that you are still doing all the time.

Btw I seriously plan to keep working until I die. I'll have to - hardly any pension...

I have been a patient of Ming Chew's for a few years... Of course I have his books.. Ming saved me from getting torn labrum surgery as well as healed my DeQuervain's tendonitis. Although he says if I keep doing Aikido, I'm going to keep seeing him, he has kept me able to train.. A few months ago, I could not lift my left shoulder at all for a few days and was very worried. Ming and his method fixed me in 1 session... If you ever make it to NYC, he is worth meeting.. Ming trained in BJJ with the Gracies although he has stopped in the last few years.. His stretches and/or work out routines have also helped me a great deal.

Another wonderful thread over at rsf: Postural analysis and natural movement . I hope it's not 'bad form' for me to point over there..<gulp>but it was a pretty cool discussion.... and definitely relevant to what i was clumsily trying to point at.

Part of the reason I am hyped on Ming is that his stuff can (teach/)give you the ability to do your own body work/rolfing/etc and re-balance yourself. Arguably a good MA would never have gotten into a mess...or could figure it out. Whatever. i couldn't. While certainly not the ultimate (or anywhere near) IT, i think it certainly represents a valid first step.... in getting out of your own way...and a step towards preparing the body..
Also; and I am reluctant to mention this connection again; but Ming touts his stuff as addressing the fascia (specifically the muscluo-fascial =myofascia) in the body. His program is about hydrating, decreasing inflammation and literally stretching and un-binding kinks from the 'fascia'. (i'm paraphrasing; but he does discuss it in terms of fascia of the body). A different take on stretching and body conditioning/changing. for what it's worth.

elsewhere..and tangentially related...I saw this; in the context of training/changing your body: "Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving your body". i like that. makes it easier to hold on in the moment of pain.

reminds me of this douka

Quote:

To see the true things
Harmonize with the voice which shouts, "Yah"
Never be drawn into the rhythm of the enemy

With "Eiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "Yah"
Guide him with "Toh"

Is it bad that i'm yelling Yah and Toh while stretching ; ]
(probably..)

While posture, etc., are intertwined with what the Chinese called "Natural Movement", that conversation on RSF misses the point. Natural movement has got more to do with Six Harmonies movement (which is in turn tied to basic tenets in the Chinese cosmology, ancient Indian body mechanics, etc.) than it has to do with what they're speculating about.

Hey Mike,
Frankly I don't know about that stuff. Is Lu He Ba (sp?) like the 'kernel' of what healthy-'natural'-powerful-cosmologically-aligned body movement is? If you adhere: you are? 'Threading the pearl'?
Dunno. If you want to talk about that I, for one, am definitely interested, cause, like I said, I don't know. Does aikido have an equivalent? Have you found that Aikido teaches about the body in that way? Is it supposed to? In my limited experience it did and it didnt.
I always meant to ask; but it's by definition personal. I would love to ask this question to Ark, Dan and yourself, (and Toby, and Ellis, and anyone who would answer!);maybe even a question for Voices of Experience; as to how has your body changed for the better; and what specifically do you like and or recommend to do? This is in reference to the 'changing/tempering of the body'. I really like your explanation of the 'universal movement' . but i only saw that brief clip and didn't really see any interviews or anything. I would love to hear more about it. It is about the spirals right?
Thanks,
Josh