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My point is that both are boastful, and when their weaknesses are shown, they react in their own way, but usually a way that is not too admirable. Sena cries like a little girl (well, her gullibility is that of a little girl and so is her innocence on how she looks at things). Yozora shuts up in insecurity. If you are boastful, make sure you have something to back it up.

My point is that both are boastful, and when their weaknesses are shown, they react in their own way, but usually a way that is not too admirable. Sena cries like a little girl (well, her gullibility is that of a little girl and so is her innocence on how she looks at things). Yozora shuts up in insecurity. If you are boastful, make sure you have something to back it up.

Dakara, where did you get 'insecure' from? Isn't it shut up in 'resignation'?

What are you talking about....Yozora doesn't boast - she can get carried away when on a S streak but doesn't boast. And given previous posts an explanation is in order, sigh...The key distinction being boasting is about 'self'.

"Mean thing to do" is not really a sufficient reason short of "one has to be nice", a condition inapplicable to the bunch of non-social kids in the club. Basically, you're forcing standards upon a group of people to which the standards are not applicable.

Basically, the logic is non-existent.

Well if we're going to say that not being mean is inapplicable to the kids in the Neighbours' Club, then nothing can be said of any of them because the things we perceive to be flaws don't apply.

Throughout this thread, we've been talking about things such as Sena having a superiority complex, and such. If the notion of being nice does not apply, then what's wrong with having a superiority complex? For that matter, what's wrong with Rika being overly perverted?

Because we have people making arguments about Yozora being a bully, when that argument stands on absolutely nothing given everyone is flawed and only two members (Kodaka and Yukimura) can be considered remotely respectable.

Dakara, where did you get 'insecure' from? Isn't it shut up in 'resignation'?

hmm... Sometimes I wonder if she is like that because it is Kodaka saying it. Anyone else, and she would have fought back. Then again, she did do that in this episode when Sena yelled at her. She did reflect on her actions, it seems, so we'll have to see how much this changes her next episode, if it changes her at all.

As for insecure, it is from her reaction. She seems very unsure of herself whenever Kodaka says anything against what she originally wanted. She usually dictates everything to everyone. It could be resignation, but at the same time, I see a lot of insecurity in that she is unsure of what she should have done.

Thank you! Finally! Someone realized how overblown and pointless each and every one of these things have been since the first season!

Lol, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that we're not observing these guys in a vacuum where just because all of them are flawed that means everything should be ignored. There is a reason why these guys are in the Neighbours' Club after all, and their flaws should be analysed for what they are. Simply saying that our standards should not be applied to these guys is not useful at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

It's the other way around: People say things about Yozora which starts off the entire discussion.

Fair point, but while that starts off the entire discussion, what I've been seeing recently here and in another forum is that once someone starts saying things about Yozora, the reverse effect occurs, and a whole bunch of people jump in to point out all of Sena's flaws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I've never heard of a prank in good spirit.

Also just to add, Sena's gullible isn't the reason for her social ineptitude....

It is possible for pranks to not be mean-spirited even if they're not made in good spirit. To me, while the act of initiating the prank may not exactly in good spirit, it wouldn't be mean-spirited either if the prank isn't followed through.

It isn't the reason for her social aptitude, but it's one of her traits that we would consider to be a flaw.

Highly offtopic: I was curious about where I got the concept that A should not go through with a prank on B with knowledge of B's gullibility, because I had no idea where I got it from yet it seemed really ingrained into my thinking. Turns out that it was from Bunyan v Jordan, something I haven't looked at in over three years o_O

Because we have people making arguments about Yozora being a bully, when that argument stands on absolutely nothing given everyone is flawed and only two members (Kodaka and Yukimura) can be considered remotely respectable.

I consider all the members of the Neighbors' Club pretty respectable, actually. Rika might be a slut, Sena might be conceited, and Kobato might be a maladjusted otaku, but they're all good people.

Fair point, but while that starts off the entire discussion, what I've been seeing recently here and in another forum is that once someone starts saying things about Yozora, the reverse effect occurs, and a whole bunch of people jump in to point out all of Sena's flaws.

Because...contrary to what you think, those defending Yozora doesn't hate Sena. However there's a fair sprinkle of Yozora haters out there who can't see any wrong with Sena, hence the put down.

Then there's the use of the word bully. One big reason for this is the rather crappy descriptions some biased individual decides to put on wikipedia and carried onto various places about Yozora being a hypocrite for hating on bullies but being a bully herself. Way to miss the nuances of the story. But hey, the boobs are more obvious.

I've always advocated reading the novel yourself to draw your own conclusions but can't stem the horde of comprehension challenged.

Because...contrary to what you think, those defending Yozora doesn't hate Sena. However there's a fair sprinkle of Yozora haters out there who can't see any wrong with Sena, hence the put down.

Then there's the use of the word bully. One big reason for this is the rather crappy descriptions some biased individual decides to put on wikipedia and carried onto various places about Yozora being a hypocrite for hating on bullies but being a bully herself. Way to miss the nuances of the story. But hey, the boobs are more obvious.

I've always advocated reading the novel yourself to draw your own conclusions but can't stem the horde of comprehension challenged.

Fair point as well, although I personally don't like the idea of overcompensating on one side just to make up for the other. I prefer taking a more independent approach (or as independent as possible) and calling out the flaws as I (subjectively of course) perceive them to be instead of overblowing one side just because everyone else is doing the same for the other.

With regard to some of the discussion earlier about the end girl, I take a "charting" approach to interpreting the novels, looking at things such as momentum and other extraneous factors that don't lie within the story itself in order to predict the end girl. I support Sena and hope she's the one who crosses the finishing line, but I do think things are looking brighter for Yozora at this point.

Lol, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that we're not observing these guys in a vacuum where just because all of them are flawed that means everything should be ignored. There is a reason why these guys are in the Neighbours' Club after all, and their flaws should be analysed for what they are. Simply saying that our standards should not be applied to these guys is not useful at all.

Agreed. It's not that our standards aren't applicable to these problem children, just that they don't know the standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by potchip

Then there's the use of the word bully. One big reason for this is the rather crappy descriptions some biased individual decides to put on wikipedia and carried onto various places about Yozora being a hypocrite for hating on bullies but being a bully herself. Way to miss the nuances of the story. But hey, the boobs are more obvious.

Yozora, when she still thought Yukimura as a male, thought it amusing to trick her into wearing girly maid clothes. When she found out that Yukimura is actually female, she then tried to trick Yukimura to wear a male butler outfit because there's no fun in dressing a female with female dress (err, what? ).

If 'bully' is too loaded of a word for you, then I guess 'prankster' could fit. In the example above, I can see Yozora enjoy pulling pranks, rather than enjoying the torment she gives to her victim. Though this is treading on a thin line since one can certainly argue this counts in the bully category as well (yes, it's subjective, at least among societies and cultures. And no, there's no such thing as a 'crappy description' of bully). But if I see it this way, I can also see parallels to how Sena treats her male fanclubs (which seems to be what most describe as her flaw). Which is, obliviousness to the possible effects of what they are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by potchip

I've always advocated reading the novel yourself to draw your own conclusions but can't stem the horde of comprehension challenged.

If the anime fails to portray the source novel, then I think it's more likely the fault is in the anime, not in the watcher's ability to comprehend. I prefer to judge the anime and the source itself separately.

The pattern with bullying is it is unprovoked - in Sena's case it's always Sena who started a topic, often directly drawing Yozora in.

I won't dispute Yozora finds amusement in tricking people, sadsim is her trait - in fact the earlier contention on she's a pushover to Kodaka is not always correct - she teases - whether it's tsukomi on his delinquent status, or intentionally causing discomfort (eg the comparing answer part, the point wasn't pretending to be non-friends to get closer - she was sewing seeds of doubt into Kodaka intentionally for her amusement)

It's only when Kodaka rebuffs her in a pubic setting (in the club room) that she gets flustered.

I actually think that Yozora does enjoy the torment of the prank victim to some extent. She does have her limits of course, as seen from her reaction at Sena's hurt response to the fortune telling prank, but that limit is set at a level that is higher than what I would deem acceptable.