Knowing how and when to skip mobs and content, imo, doesn't prove skill. At least that's my understanding of how you're required to do m+ nowadays, isn't it? The most qualified to cheese and skip content in the most creative ways are the best.

It requires great knowledge of how to run a dungeon and still, if you haven't done m+ (which it clearly seems like you don't, you just offer an outsider pov judging by your comment), you need to handle big packs, kill them fast, and maintain a really precise interrupt/stun/disorient/fear/w,e rotation, in order to be able to kill the mobs without getting one shot.

All the mobs are a lot more difficult to deal with due to affixes, and just like m+, you needed to have a great deal of knowledge to do Heroic Dungeons in TBC successfully. Could you do a TBC dungeon in 10 hours? Ye you could, but so can you do a +20, or 25, providing you have that key. The only thing you won't get is a harder difficulty, as you weren't good enough to beat the timer, and earn a higher difficulty. If it was as easy as you say, everyone and their mother would be able to easily do +15s, or +20s or +25s.

I bet that your opinion of M+ partly comes from the recent MDIs, where the FotM teams are the norm, with 2x outlaws, a WW, a resto druid and a prot warrior, but all this zerging you see is something that no average, or even good player could do, it's something only the best could do, and the rest of us couldn't even hope of achieving. And just like there are FotMs in bfa, there are in classic too, and that's why most parties were filled with rogues and warriors, and the same thing goes for TBC, the best classes were preferred.

But what do I know? I raid in a top 100 guild over many tiers, and +20 dungeons are my limit, but I guess I suck balls, and tbc would hand my balls to my mouth, since it's definitely something I cannot handle, given the limited experience I have. I imagine that if a +25 on time doesn't prove skill, tbc HCs would be impossible for poor little me

well yeah its based in 1.12, unless dungeons are buffed its gonna be a joke until 40+dungeons

This isn't the same company. They are not in touch with the playerbase, they are hellbent on profit, and yea companies deserve profit, but not at the cost of the health of the game, and they became their own worst enemy. WoW was special not because of vanilla, bc, or wrath. No nostalgia here. It was special because of Blizzards involvement with the community, which is all but lost now. They changed everything into the least possible communication with the community.

Man I wish I could understand what you just said here. I won't mock your English but damn.
I won't read other random links. If you have anything to discuss please discuss here.

And what's up with my English? I mean, concept is simple, and in fact there is nothing much to understand here:

Originally Posted by Alkizon

------if in brief:
...if you compare content, then new one is many times easier, and if you compare progress, then due to its technical component (boss mechanics/unattainability due to characteristics of itemization) it's easier in old version, which doesn't prevent it from being more difficult for other reasons (raids' group mechanics (threat vs resource managment, preparing), although this is also a question with regard to "illegal" toolkit size, which most modern players (had to?) have), which means that answer isn't simple and comparison process requires additional parameters;
...when we talked about progress before, we also mostly meant specific content available to you and now this won't be true (raids are content and progress, bosses are stages of content and progress, but modes aren't any of it since you already saw everything here; it's just a little bit more of progress (ilvl/ap?), but not content, if gameplay is interesting enough, it could turn into something resembling PvP seasons and can be quite entertaining, but, I repeat, neither this nor the other is content and you know it; competitions (E-sport?) is virtually lack of content and gameplay is the only thing (together with "watching its shou") that they offer you)
------

Therefore, if arguing goes about content, then you are wrong, and judging by text, that's exactly this situation. A couple of additional abilities or mechanics in another mode doesn't change fact and history of killing, lore component (no extra story/locations/quests = no development in content = same content) doesn't consider this as something "different".

And what's up with my English? I mean, concept is simple, and in fact there is nothing much to understand here:

Therefore, if arguing goes about content, then you are wrong, and judging by text, that's exactly this situation.

Did you just imply that having harder difficulties is not content? Oh my God.
Content is not easier. Or you think pressing a 4 button rotation is easier than spamming frostbolt then I have no words.
Let me explain my definition of difficulty: the more input and attention needed the higher the difficulty.
By this metric I don't consider numerical 'artificial' difficulty actually difficult. Which is what vanilla was. The fact that you had to farm x resist gear or whatever does not make the actual raid harder. This is artificial difficulty. It's a binary thing: you either have x stat or don't.
Today raids have a million abilities and stuff to avoid/soak/press/burst/kite whatever. Saying that it's easier than before is a blatant lie based on bias. You can Say you liked it better Back then idc, but don't make false claims.

Classic was easy. But don't take it from me. You'll se how fast MC will be cleared after release. Hint: very fast.

People were noobs who didn't have every little detail off the game readily available (or they just didn't bother to look it up from third party sites). This is how I played vanilla, it wasn't until TBC or WotLK that I got good at the game.

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

I remember the 60 (LBRS/Scholo/Strath) dungeons and how you had to CC trash packs (sap/sheep/root) or you couldn't do them. Don't think the leveling ones were THAT hard. I recall Wailing Caverns having some tough bosses, but don't remember the trash being hard enough to require CCing.

"It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" ~ Jesus of Nazareth"把它放在我的屁股，爸爸" ~ Dalai Lama

(it won't be so simple, but let suppose that it happens) and there's nothing wrong with that, because:

Originally Posted by Alkizon

So if a lot of dif.modes isn't content, then you should compare the easiest difficulty for particular “content” for adequacy of your discussion (precisely when discussing content difficulty), but not the most complex one. It's normal vs LFR and now think about what is it for Ulduar. Do you both understand this?

But if you want to compare progress difficulty, here is a smarter maze, because see the quote: now "all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone)". They simply missing development "ceiling" in current design (not only for a particular player due to limited time and opportunities/abilities, but in general for all). There is no end for "progress" for anyone and since there is no end, so there is no goal to reach that end, which was (still is! I'm not talking specifically about this game) main playing motivator for most people. That is, developer’s trick isn't to make it unattainable in principle, but so that it can be reached by average at a certain time defined by devs (even if this time is transferred to next expansion for some and for some in advance of this deadline), and concepts of progress and content shouldn't be separated here, their division is artificial and vicious for this particular game.

but this all was about essence of comparison and in this case it's necessary to compare LFR (that is the easiest level of content obtaining) with... which one? but Classics didn't have other levels so...

ps. You may like it or not, it can agree with your attempts at argumentation or not, but this is how it is in fact.

Did you just imply that having harder difficulties is not content? Oh my God.

Having multiple difficulties doesnt add content, it just makes it more accessible for bad players.

Content is not easier. Or you think pressing a 4 button rotation is easier than spamming frostbolt then I have no words.

The difficulty of the content is not measured by the difficulty of maintaining your output alone.

Let me explain my definition of difficulty: the more input and attention needed the higher the difficulty.

I can name litteral 1button specs from vanilla that are harder to execute than any and all specs in BFA.

By this metric I don't consider numerical 'artificial' difficulty actually difficult. Which is what vanilla was. The fact that you had to farm x resist gear or whatever does not make the actual raid harder. This is artificial difficulty. It's a binary thing: you either have x stat or don't.

Having multiple gear requirements for all of your raiders does add difficulty, unless you are playing with bots.

Today raids have a million abilities and stuff to avoid/soak/press/burst/kite whatever. Saying that it's easier than before is a blatant lie based on bias. You can Say you liked it better Back then idc, but don't make false claims.

The numbers of abilities are irrelevant when none of them are important.

Classic was easy. But don't take it from me. You'll se how fast MC will be cleared after release. Hint: very fast.

Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

Whoever this "everyone" is lost all credibility when they reported quest markers missing as a bug.

There is some credibility to the claim that dungeons are/feel easier.

However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

No it won't. Close to it? Maybe. But not exactly like it was, not even close (pun). A half-decent semi casual player knows how to play the game, they're just not taking part in cutting edge content (they're casuals duh). You must be talking about total noobs.

Dungeons were easy back then, especially in 1.12. Either people's memories are wrong or they're used to private servers that got the numbers wrong. I tank, healed, and DPSed them all as a teen that had barely touched MMOs before and had no idea what I was doing.

The only kind of challenging dungeons were BRS and timed Strat which would be the equivalent of a Mythic 0 these days, and that's being generous.

If you want to play Classic because it was "hard" then you're playing for the wrong reason.

Dungeons up to 60 were all easy, the hard part was to know how to navigate/know tricks some of them and not get lost lol since they were abit of a maze/puzzle, Maraudon/ Dire Maul, comes to mind.

I remenber doing them as a lock with a Retri "tank" pala using seal, a Shadow Priest "healing" without shadowform ofc, a rogue that didnt knew what kick was and a hunter that always pulled mobs with his pet. Yes... those were my friends, the real hard part was getting those 5 ppl together for some hours

No it won't. Close to it? Maybe. But not exactly like it was, not even close (pun). A half-decent semi casual player knows how to play the game, they're just not taking part in cutting edge content (they're casuals duh). You must be talking about total noobs.

Plenty of casual players are doing high M+ and mythic raiding, do not confuse casual with bad.

I knew how to play the game back in the days aswell, when first stepping my foot inside MC. I'm no better today than i was back then, the skill-cap was just lower.

Ofcourse it will be. Because theres people whom have cleared it 20+ times on fresh servers. However for half-decent semi-casual players whom havent seen the place before, it's going to be exactly like back in the days.

I don't think so.

1.12 talents and 16 debuff slots will mean player characters are dramatically stronger than when people first did Molten Core.

But realistically even back in the day Molten Core was a very easy instance that was cleared up to Majordomo the first week, who didn't die right away because of the rep gate and Ragnaros was only up for a bit because of the fact you could only fight him 1 hour a week like Algalon.

Plenty of casual players are doing high M+ and mythic raiding, do not confuse casual with bad.

I knew how to play the game back in the days aswell, when first stepping my foot inside MC. I'm no better today than i was back then, the skill-cap was just lower.

You're contradicting your previous point. Casual doesn't mean bad player... and we agree on that. So how can vanilla feel as challenging to these players as it did back in the days when they were more than just casuals (they were noobs)?

I once beat Baron Rivendare as a rogue by staying out of his dmg aura and using throw. Trust me, people were just dumb back then, not knowing what to do to increase their dps. The game was tuned for people being idiots at most lvls, so its understandable that veteran players are knocking dungeons all over.

May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

I once beat Baron Rivendare as a rogue by staying out of his dmg aura and using throw. Trust me, people were just dumb back then, not knowing what to do to increase their dps. The game was tuned for people being idiots at most lvls, so its understandable that veteran players are knocking dungeons all over.

Was that when rogues throw ability didnt have a cooldown and could just be spammed? Rogues could do equal or better dps than hunters cause of it :P

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by zorkuus

You're contradicting your previous point. Casual doesn't mean bad player... and we agree on that. So how can vanilla feel as challenging to these players as it did back in the days when they were more than just casuals (they were noobs)?

Because "skill" is static. You never become a better player other than aquiring more knowledge or experience. And no, experience in BFA is not equal to experience in Classic.