Actually the problem is the lack of range with boosts combined with the rank of the skills and their minimal effect for training time., If you had bothered to read my whole post you would know that.

The tractor beam bonus is all but irrelevant when you can't have your miners far enough away to make use of it - So yeah I suppose leaving a bonus that has little to no use; is right up devs alley and totally inline with current design trends (half baked, not finished).

I have an idea, fix the bonus given for training leadership skills (wing command & fleet command) so they match the rank of the skills - Wouldn't that be "balanced".

Wing & Fleet Command, 0 to 5..94 hours per KM boost range for a maximum of 19KM (not very efficient use of paid game time)

Boosts intentionally have a limited range to force you to make trade offs and to make positioning at least slightly more important. It also forces you to keep the boosting ship closer to the ships it's affecting, which is important in fleet combat.

There's absolutely nothing half-baked about leaving the tractor beam bonus as-is. Yes, it won't see too much use if you're within boosting range of something, but the options there are to take it away or just leave it as-is so as not to break whatever minimal use it might have.

Your numbers for fleet and wing boosts are laughable. You're taking the level 5 trains, which aren't a big impact, and holding those up as the problem. If you ignore the unneeded level 5s, or even just the level 5 on fleet, you get something much more reasonable for the effect.

No one's forcing you to train those to 5. If you don't want to then don't.

Ok, sorry but your wrong, level 5's are required for anything close to reasonable range. Oh and the prerequisite for "fleet command" is wing command 5 so close to 40 days there alone, for very minimal gain in range unless you consider 30K range on boosts as enough. 37km with roughly 8 days training for wing command 4, then over a month for the next 1km and to unlock the next skill.

What if anything at all does fleet combat have to do with mining? Which is what we were discussing.. Command ships get a role bonus of 100% to boost, which is ok. Yet industrial command ships only get 50%. That 15km makes a big difference..

My opinions are mine.

If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - -
Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Ok, sorry but your wrong, level 5's are required for anything close to reasonable range. Oh and the prerequisite for "fleet command" is wing command 5 so close to 40 days there alone, for very minimal gain in range unless you consider 30K range on boosts as enough. 37km with roughly 8 days training for wing command 4, then over a month for the next 1km and to unlock the next skill.

What if anything at all does fleet combat have to do with mining? Which is what we were discussing.. Command ships get a role bonus of 100% to boost, which is ok. Yet industrial command ships only get 50%. That 15km makes a big difference..

I'm not sure of your grasp of the English language or maybe it is just your narrow minded interpretation of what I wrote but I wasn't holding anything up as "the problem" and I certainly didn't say the tractor beam bonus was half baked, I suggested a way to make those lvl 5 skills worth training. A month for 1km of range, just to unlock the next skill that will add minimal range is somewhat a joke - Poor development, poorer implementation of the new boosts.

It is a direct and deliberate nerf to miners.

As for half baked, unfinished things being put into the game - Take a look at Citadels and EC's (EC's especially), there is still more you can't do with them than there is with.

I misspoke, I thought that they'd changed Fleet Command to only require Wing 4, that was my mistake. That said you still don't *need* Fleet 5 to get good range out of these ships. If you do feel you need it, and it's that integral, then it's not that the train isn't worth the time it's that you don't like the time required.

Yes, range does matter, which is why CCP didn't match the boost range to the tractor range. The point of this isn't to make it super easy to cover everyone on grid with a single ship.

If I had to guess mining ships get reduced range because they move less and will have a much easier time positioning meaning they needed the reduced range to cause people to make tradeoffs with their boosting ships and positioning. You could bring another booster, or you could cluster up in a potentially less optimal configuration but trade the second booster for a mining ship.

Combat ships, on the other hand, are more likely to have disparate fleet element in different parts of the grid, so they get a bigger range boost.

By the way I'd appreciate it if you'd leave the personal attacks out of it, thanks, I haven't insulted you so I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor.

As far as things being "half finished" I disagree on all points. The boosting changes as a whole, when combined with the changes to the mining ships themselves, were absolutely a buff to mining. You can't free-boost from inside a POS now, but you of all people should be in favor of getting rid of a free-lunch mechanic like that. The range changes affect, at best, 1% of belts in the game and most of those are in Null where you can use a sieged Rorqual if you so choose. Other than that it's just a matter of considering your positioning a little more when mining, and industry is nothing if not an activity about calculations and planning if you want to get optimal results.

Citadels are an intentionally piecemeal implementation. That was written on the tin when they started and it's the only reasonable way to put something of that size into the game. Otherwise they'd be in dev for 2-3 years with the players seeing basically nothing, then getting dumped in, inevitably having bugs and other issues all crop up at once, and both the devs and players scrambling to adjust to such a massive change. You're free to disagree if you like, you're also free to go start up your own game studio where you can do things your way. Let me know how that works out for you if you do.

evel 5's are required for anything close to reasonable range. Oh and the prerequisite for "fleet command" is wing command 5 so close to 40 days there alone, for very minimal gain in range unless you consider 30K range on boosts as enough. 37km with roughly 8 days training for wing command 4, then over a month for the next 1km and to unlock the next skill.

What if anything at all does fleet combat have to do with mining? Which is what we were discussing.. Command ships get a role bonus of 100% to boost, which is ok. Yet industrial command ships only get 50%. That 15km makes a big difference..

It is a direct and deliberate nerf to miners.

That said you still don't *need* Fleet 5 to get good range out of these ships. If you do feel you need it, and it's that integral, then it's not that the train isn't worth the time it's that you don't like the time required.

Yes, range does matter, which is why CCP didn't match the boost range to the tractor range. The point of this isn't to make it super easy to cover everyone on grid with a single ship.

If I had to guess mining ships get reduced range because they move less and will have a much easier time positioning meaning they needed the reduced range to cause people to make tradeoffs with their boosting ships and positioning. You could bring another booster, or you could cluster up in a potentially less optimal configuration but trade the second booster for a mining ship.

A nerf to miners? After the Orca received a massive overhaul; improved tanking, capable Shield RR and huge increase in ore carry capacity. I will gladly trade 50% range. I am still looking at WingCmdr V as a bitter pill. (sugar coated Injectors will still leave bad taste). But it is a decision all fleet boosters have to make, regardless of their discipline. The only time I find that range becomes an issue is with Ore Anoms which can be spread over a significant area.

I would point to the option of Harvester Implants to assist overcoming this issue. Which again raises my point that Outer Ring is only available from Null; when both Sisters (Virtue) and Thukker (Nomad) are directly accessible in High-Sec through their LP. Perhaps with the changes to Deep Core Mining and other NPC mining corps, their LP stores could offer a Resource implant series in Slot 9 for miners to increase harvesting ranges.

Clustering up and sitting still are some of the primary contributing factors to miners being targets of convenience. It was the introduction of the Higgs Anchor intended to relieve these factors. So yes, the reduced range is a nerf which lacks a reasonable explanation.

Clustering up and sitting still are some of the primary contributing factors to miners being targets of convenience

I respectfully disagree. Being spread out is a bad thing. For one, which was just mentioned by you, Orcas now have remote shield rep capability and shield command boost ability, and considering that remote reps operate best in optimal range, yes you should be close to rest of fleet. Also worth noting: drone travel time in regards to defense. I've ganked a few retrievers myself, I freely admit that. The hardest kill I had was a retriever kill smack in the middle of a mining fleet that was almost entirely skiffs. Because they were all clustered together, getting a proper warp-in on him was a nightmare and they almost got me with their defense drones before I could pop him. If the skiffs weren't afk themselves, they would have sent their drones in enough time to save their odd-man-out-in-a-retriever bro. It was their AFK that killed him, not their clustering together. If they were spread out it would have been a piece of cake and no reaction time would have been enough to sic the drones on me due to distance.

So yes, clustering together saves lives. It's the same principle in play for herd animals. There's a reason it's done - it's a good idea.

Now, yes I'm talking about highsec mining. But if we're talking about low or null, I doubt there's anyone fielding a mining fleet with neuts in system or that being spread out is going to save you.

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