(05-12-2013 08:28 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote: Why on earth should we form an opinion of some iron-age goat-fucker's imaginary fairytale monster? We would have to believe in it to form an opinion of it. You're just trying to sneak in an assumption that it actually exists through the back door.

But with all due respect, Tarqiyya Mockingbird, although you don’t have to believe in the God of the Bible you certainly have to accept a concept of Him in order to contribute to a lot of discussion found on this forum.

No, we don't. Because it's a made-up character anyway, there are as many "concepts of it" as there are x-tards.

Quote: Now if an atheist’s argument was based solely on a general ‘no supernatural god’ neutral approach, you would be correct.

That's only one of many cases in which i am correct.

Quote:However we have to take into account sacred religious textsvarious fairytales

fixed that for ya.

Quote: and their interpretation not only by believers but atheists as well.

No, we don't. Since they are ALL contrived stories, the various differences are irrelevant.

Quote: It’s pretty obvious just looking around here that often religious belief and how it is carried out are huge issues in a person’s rejection not only of a particular faith but of the idea of a God itself. Issues of suffering, of gender, and of morals are all discussed and Biblical texts are often used to illustrate a picture of God that is put forward as either undesirable or improbable. Eg, ‘if that’s what the God of the Bible thinks then that’s not a God I would be interested in,’ or ‘if God is all-loving and all-powerful he would stop suffering.’ These concepts of God aren't things that come about just looking at the world and thinking ‘is there some kind of intelligence behind this’ but as a result of a reaction to a particular religion’s teachings about God.

They all share the common trait that they debunk the various preposterous claims that theotards propose. That's all that's really significant about it.

Quote:I noticed even in the thread about prayer where you continually referred to God in terms of Him being a cosmic messenger boy (the exact wording escapes me) to contrast with what I was saying, what did you base that phrase on?

Your particular claim.

Quote:Obviously you are basing that on your opinion of what prayer is, what it is used for

Yes.

Quote: and the nature of God

Bullshit. Give up the sad attempts at Sophistry, you aren't good at it.

Quote: ..otherwise it wouldn't make much sense either as mockery or a serious thought.

You wish.

Quote: Most people here make it quite clear through the language they use to refer to God

What they refer to is the various CLAIMS regarding whatever imaginary deity is propsed. This is a VERY important distinction you absolutely refuse to acknowledge. Willful ignorance, ya know.

Quote: that they don’t believe He exists

You know, your capitalizations and references to your Imaginary Friend as if it really existed don't impress me in the least. Give it up.

Quote: The definition I've been given around here that atheism is a neutral position, but a rejection of something that is judged to be unfounded means that even that is forming an opinion of something which you do not believe in based on somebody else’s representation; you cannot be atheist until you have been presented with the possibility of theism.

I don't buy into that bullshit. We are born without any belief in your fairytale characters; we are born atheists.

Quote:Think of anyone who has ever discussed a movie or book character with their friends, and have judged or speculated on the motives or actions of those fictional characters- does that discussion have to mean they believe those characters really exist in some supernatural way?

We don't have anyone here asserting that fictional movie or book characters are real. YOU are asserting that your fictional gawd-character is real. Can you even see the difference at all, or do you just refuse to have anything to do with reality at all?

Quote:Or when someone's asked why a particular book or character is their favourite. Does their liking of how that character's written either negate them liking that character or imply that they think it's real? Of course not.

No one is asserting that Harry Fucking Potter is real here. You are being deliberately obtuse and disingenuous.

Quote: I'm not trying to sneak an assumption on anyone here

Yes, you fucking are.

Quote: or force your atheist-card off you (get the feeling that wouldn't happen in a hurry ).

As if you could. Then what the fuck are you doing here, anyway? Besides trying to passive-aggressively push your insufferable gawd-shit on us, that is.

Quote: Obviously I'm going to approach the text as the inspired Word of God

Yes, your passive aggressive agenda is obvious.

Quote:and you're going to see it as a collection of ancient texts referring to God which does not exist.

No, I am going to see it as you trying to panderytize every chance you get, pissing on our backs while telling us it's raining, and from here on out you get no quarter from me.

Quote:Just making a point that if somebody is going to criticise/judge/mock someone's religious beliefs based on an opinion of their texts you have already formed an opinion of the deity to which it refers.

Stuff your presuppositionalist bullshit right back up your ass. All your semantic gymnastics amount to is a claim that your gawd-figure has to actually exist in order for anyone to counter your bullshit claims that it exists. You can believe that bullshit all you want, but all you are doing is deluding yourself and pissing off people who can actually think and reason for ourselves.

(05-12-2013 04:10 PM)morondog Wrote: But it's better to be Christian, even some kind of lowly WBC type horrible Christian, than an atheist, am I right ? Because *belief* is still what gets you into heaven. Not being a nice guy, not carrying out the will of God (how do you determine that, by the way?) but belief.

And God not so super smart if he can't find a better way of communicating than via dumb-ass priests interpreting an already out-dated (according to you) book.

Where did I say it was outdated? ...Blah blah blah...

I see you tried to disingenuously DODGE morondawg's question: "But it's better to be Christian, even some kind of lowly WBC type horrible Christian, than an atheist, am I right?"

Taq... can I appeal to you to be nice to Yasmin ? She is actually pretty nice... and she's genuinely thinking about stuff you and others say on the site here. Give her a chance ? She's coming from a very religious background...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

When you said that all the misogynist and other horrible stuff was for people of an earlier time (I forget your exact wording) and doesn't apply now ? Is that not basically saying that the book is outdated ?

Quote:And no, simple 'belief' does not mean a free pass into Heaven. Faith and works have to go together. If I believe that Christ calls us to show mercy but don't do it, I may as well never believed it in the first place

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NKJV):

Quote:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

As I read it this says that you *can* 'build with hay' on the foundation of belief in Jesus, i.e. do nothing very useful, and still make it into heaven. BUT if you don't believe in Christ (no other foundation can anyone lay...) then you're screwed from the start.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(06-12-2013 01:11 AM)morondog Wrote: Taq... can I appeal to you to be nice to Yasmin ? She is actually pretty nice... and she's genuinely thinking about stuff you and others say on the site here. Give her a chance ? She's coming from a very religious background...

MD, I hear you, ok? -- but I am not convinced that talking past me (and/or US) from a presuppositionalist stance that assumes that I/we actually believe in something I/we unequivocably declare I/we don't believe in is "nice". Nor do I see it as "nice" to maintain the hackneyed line of shit that claims that her fairy-tale monster exists whether any of us believes it or not. A veneer of "niceness" is just another manipulative ploy that theotards keep in their quiver. You buy into it if you want to.

If you think I should "be nice" in the face of what to me is clearly disingenuous tactical maneuvering on her part, you need to be a lot more convincing than "oh, she's actually pretty nice". Easy for a pathological liar to "play nice" when they are in full-on manipulation mode. I've seen that too many times, IRL and online.

Seriously, I'll listen if you've got something better than that. You notice that I stood up for Bri when that fucking idiot Chippy got all stupid at her the past couple of days? Bri is and has always been HONEST. But I can smell a fucking rat from a thousand yards. Maybe if yasmin were open to criticism about the intellectual dishonesty she is clearly displaying and indulging in, but from here she seems determined to push whatever fucking panderytizing agenda she is pursuing, to preach and spout her superstitious bullshit rather than to learn or to connect with us as real people.

I see that your attempt to be conciliatory is honest. If you see something in yasmin you think I don't see, I am open to suggestion, but life is short and my patience with bullshitters is all gone, and I smell a lot of bullshit in yasmin's tactics. What is it that makes you ask me to give her a pass?

I dunno... I've chatted to her elsewhere, as it seems you have too... We formed different opinions.

I don't think she was saying that you *believe* in God secretly... I think what she was saying is something along the lines of 'God has to be defined in order for you to disbelieve in him'...

When I ask you to be nice, I'm not asking you to not argue with her or let her get away with stuff... I'm more asking you to just treat her a bit more friendly, 'cos I think she's looking for answers herself, not just spewing justifications.

Um... yeah, personally I hate it when people say to me 'you should do X' or whatever, so feel free to disregard

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.