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Tetsuya Tada giving some valuable insight on the twins and their prospects for future offspring, courtesy of Jalopnik. The convertible isn't exactly ready yet, either.

Quote:

How would you like to see a whole family of models spawned from the Scion FR-S/Toyota GT-86/Subaru BRZ like what BMW has done with Mini? If your answer is "hell yes," then you'll be happy to know that Tetsuya Tada, the chief engineer of the Toyobaru, wants that to happen as well.

Tada gave a fascinating interview over at Toyota's official UK blog, in which he said it would be his "dream" to see the GT-86 turn into a whole new lineup of cars. Including, he said, a shooting brake so he can take his dogs along for the ride. (God, that guy is awesome.)

During the development process, Tada said that designers investigated the possibility of a sedan and shooting brake version, but were told to focus on the coupe. Here's what he said:

“It’s just my personal dream that the GT86 could become a family like what BMW has done with the Mini family. I hope that happens. I also have five dogs myself and I would like to have them in the car, so a sports shooting break would be just right.

As for the GT 86 Convertible everyone is so excited about, Tada said "there’s still some way to go before production. We’ve got many engineering challenges and not all of them are solved yet."

Tada also spoke about Toyota's planned collaboration with BMW, which will more than likely result in a new, high-tech sportscar. He said that Toyota learned a lot from working with another company's culture when they made the GT-86 with Subaru, and they hope to do the same with the Germans. He think that beer and sausage will be necessary first.

“At the moment we are struggling, because we are having this really business-like dealing with BMW and we haven’t really been able to get through that barrier so far. Perhaps I need to meet them socially and drink beer and eat sausage together. In fact the one time I felt we went beyond the business-like barrier was when we all went to Oktoberfest and drank beer. That was the one time, when we were drinking together that I thought, these are unexpectedly good people…

As if this discussion needed to get any more crazy. Lots of interesting stuff here:

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Toyota is considering launching a range-topping variant of the GT86 (sold as the Scion FR-S in the United States) powered by a hybrid drivetrain.

Speaking with England's Autocar magazine, Toyota chief engineer Tetsuya Tada revealed that designers are already working on the coupe's mid-cycle facelift. In addition to new sheetmetal, the refresh will bring about a more powerful version of the car that will utilize either a turbocharger, a supercharger or a potent hybrid drivetrain to squeeze every last pony out of the flat-four.

"An electric motor assistance solution is possible and it would bring benefits that forced induction does not," said Tada in an interview at the Geneva Motor Show.

If Toyota picks the hybrid route, the gasoline-electric drivetrain will be considerably simpler and cheaper to produce than the one that is found under the skin of the Prius. This will keep the coupe's price within Toyota's target bracket and avoid adding too much weight.

Tada also revealed why Toyota didn't launch a more powerful version of the GT86 and a convertible model immediately after the car made its debut.

"Management considered the GT86 very risky," admitted Tada. "They wanted proof that the '86 coupe would hit its sales target before they would sign off on a convertible. Now that they have the proof, we can begin to think about other development ideas for the car."

If launched, the hybrid-powered FR-S is at least two or three years away.

Also just looked online at the Camry hybrid XLE vs the standard XLE and from the weights I could find online it seems the hybrid weighs ~260 lbs heavier. That is for a much larger hybrid system than is needed for the FRS. Something along the lines of the Civic size would make much more sense.

Hybrid probably won't be worth it for the cost/benefit aspect, but it will open up the market to people that will only buy a hybrid (because it's green). I'm all for them getting more sales out of the same chassis to reduce costs and allow for faster development.

I don't think you can make that direct assumption. Many hybrids incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. That may be harder on a car designed to be light.

As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.

As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.

Yeah, 400 lbs was just a swag, but the weight would depend greatly only on what kind of Hybrid system it was. Is a system that can run on pure EV, or will be used to boost performance. A booster type hybrid system could be VERY light indeed. But if you want it to get 75 miles on pure EV then no, it will be very heavy.

Honda's hybrid system is also very different, they incorporate the electric motor directly mounted onto the main engine. The motor is smaller and lighter. Toyota has the motor completely seperate which adds more weight.

Really the added weight is the battery pack and the electric motor. Depending on the size of the pack, those could weigh alot. The tesla S battery back is massive because it's all electric, the car is the size of a camry but weighs an extremely hefty 4,600lbs due mostly to the battery.

At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable. They make electric motors that can be modified to fit between the transmission and engine, or on the back of the transmission. Perhaps they can attach it to the rear end. I also don't think you would lost much efficiency if the system used the VSC to help modulate braking power to the rear when it can, like slowing to a stop at a stoplight.

At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable.

The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.

I would agree that it completely depends on what kind of hybrid system Toyota would want to put in the FT-86/FRS.

The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.

I would agree that it completely depends on what kind of hybrid system Toyota would want to put in the FT-86/FRS.

There is absolutely no way the civic has a 20kWH battery, that would make it a FULL plug in hybrid and give the nissan leaf a run for the money, which has a 24kwH battery. There would be no reason to buy the leaf if you could get a civic with nearly the same range but still have a gas engine to back you up. Not to mention the giant cost of a 20kWH battery, which i don't see in the price tag of the civic.

Perhaps you are mistaken in your units. The motor can use 20KW peak but not be able to sustain it. Or perhaps it's a 20WH battery.

There is absolutely no way the civic has a 20kWH battery, that would make it a FULL plug in hybrid and give the nissan leaf a run for the money, which has a 24kwH battery. There would be no reason to buy the leaf if you could get a civic with nearly the same range but still have a gas engine to back you up. Not to mention the giant cost of a 20kWH battery, which i don't see in the price tag of the civic.

Perhaps you are mistaken in your units. The motor can use 20KW peak but not be able to sustain it. Or perhaps it's a 20WH battery.

I'm thinking a 1.6 DI motor with a CVT. Fuel economy nearing 40 MPG. I bet there are a ton of people out there that love the looks of the car but don't want to put their child in such a lightweight car with 200 HP.

I don't believe I ever wrote that it had 20 kWH battery. I stated it had a 20 kW battery.

You wrote

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53x12

The Civic hybrid has a 20 kW battery that weighs 48 lbs according to Honda. That comes out to 2.4 lbs/kW. The battery in the current Civic hybrid is significantly lighter, smaller and has a longer range than the old hybrid version.

Which was in reference to

Quote:

Originally Posted by gggplaya

At roughly 18lbs per KWH, the prius plug in has a 4.4kWH pack so that's about 80lbs for the battery pack in a hybrid. Add in the weight of the electric motor, wiring and a few other components, i don't think a target weight of 200lbs would be unreasonable.

So yes, in the context of your reply, you did. Also there is no point in doing math for 20KW breaking it down to 2.4lbs per KW. You can have a 20KW battery the size of a lawnmower battery put out 20KW, or the size of a computer tower put out 20KW. What matters is capacity, so your math is pointless otherwise.

I think you did make a mistake and are now backtracking to try and save yourself.

I'm thinking a 1.6 DI motor with a CVT. Fuel economy nearing 40 MPG. I bet there are a ton of people out there that love the looks of the car but don't want to put their child in such a lightweight car with 200 HP.

wait,

You want a slower version of a BRZ that gets good mileage, why not just buy a miata.

You want a slower version of a BRZ that gets good mileage, why not just buy a miata.

Because the Miata does not get 40mpg.

Although the idea that Toyoburu would engineer a smaller engine, get it through all the associated EPA/DOT regulations just to put it in a low-production hybrid version of the FR-S that would cost $30k+ and make only 40mpg is pretty naive.

The 2.0 NA is always going to be the cheaper to buy and cost less over the lifetime of the vehicle for 90% of people. Hybrid in this car would be for tree-humping idiots that don't understand math or science.

I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"

Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"

Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller.

Agreed, figure out how to stuff that Prius C power-train in the next version.