Into the Woods

“Let’s go camping!” I used to love hearing that phrase,love the outdoors. But if you came here thinking you’ve found the newest blog on tent popping -so sorry. Just a little word play in the title,an abbreviated form of Harold CAMPING and his Depart OUT doctrine. But we do feel Mr. Camping is lost in the “woods” called Allegorical Wonderland with his entourage, known here and elsewhere as Campingites, and need a light of truth to navigate out of that Black Forest. But first a little aside-for those ready to accuse us of a verbal personal assault on Mr. Camping and those who embrace his teachings,please read our About page. Other sites,because it either didn’t fit their format or couldn’t stomach the heated debate a lightning rod topic such as this generates, have relent.”If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen”(Harry S Truman)-and so they did.

A little backround for the uninformed.Harold Camping comes from a Dutch Reformed backround and was in the construction industry(owner of Camping Construction) before co-founding Family Stations, Inc. in 1958,a non-profit world-wide radio ministry better known as Family Radio.He’s president/general manager and has devoted himself to full-time unpaid ministry after leaving his business some years ago and has hosted a call-in program “Open Forum” since 1961(you do have to admire the dedication). And it is this program which has become his primary “soap box” to spew abberrent teachings. To be fair, there was a time when Mr. Camping fell within the pale of orthodoxy,in Reformed school of thought, but began to stray off the reservation with his hyper-allegorical method of interpreting Scripture-with a dash of numerology thrown in. This method is purely subjective, given to the whims and mood of what one may “see” in a passage at the moment, and only limited to ones imagination. It is this very method that has produced his “The church age has ended”-(aka-“Depart Out Doctrine”-that one should leave his/her church because God is essentially through with the church ,circa 1988) , his previous book “1994?”(that Christ would return in the fall of 1994) and current “Time Has an End”-his “magnum opus”,if you will,with revised calculations now pointing to a 2011 return of our Lord (in the fall,of course). (Where’s Mr. Rodger’s when you need’em-” Can you say False Prophet?!”). In fairness-as in 1994? Mr. Camping gives himself some wiggle room in this statement:

In parallel fashion, God is warning the world that, in all likelihood, in the year 2011, the whole world will be destroyed. ………….Having said all of the above, the end-time dates presented in this study are not being offered as absolute fact. They are being offered based upon our present knowledge of Biblical truth. Continued study of the Bible may result in correction being made at some future time if any errors have been made. We must never forget that the Bible is given not only to teach us doctrine but alsoto make correction in whatever doctrine we hold. Wherever we have correctly understood the Bible, however, the resulting date absolutely will be correct. (From Time Has an End- H.Camping).

OK-we have” in all likelihood “,” based upon our present knowledge of Biblical truth” – should insert “ever changing” between “present” and “knowledge”. But wait!” STOP THE PRESSES!” Drum Roll,Please! Harold has just come out with a new book! A grand summation it seems of his last five bodies of work,entitled-

“We Are Almost There!” . You have The End of the Church Age..and After, The Fig Tree , The Wheat and the Tares, I Hope God Will Save Me (ah..He will,just repent)and Time Has an End –all rolled into a tight little egg roll,so to speak, for easy consumption. And now, he’s finally done it with this cherry,from very beginning of his new work:

WITH NO APOLOGIES, IT IS THE INTENT OF THIS BOOK TO WARN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE ABOUT THE ABUNDANT BIBLICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE END OF THE WORLD IS ALMOST HERE. THE END OF THE WORLD IS THAT AWESOME AND TERRIBLE MOMENT WHEN JESUS CHRIST, THE SUPREME RULER OF MANKIND, WILL COMPLETE THE JUDGMENT PROCESS THAT BEGAN IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WHEN ADAM AND EVE DISOBEYED GOD. (From We Are Almost There!-italics added).

He’s done it! He’s boxed himself in,painted himself into the proverbial corner!-the end of the world isalmost here…. for him being 2011. Mr. Camping,it seems , has no where to go after this one-if, Lord willing, he out lives this “prophecy”( as of this writing he’s 86 years old).

To make this short -(and leaving the Church and annihilation for another post)- again ,Mr. Camping is lost in the deep, dark forest off the beaten path forging ahead on his own to oblivion. It would do well those who tag along behind him to take heed to the following verses:

“But of that day and hour no one knows, no,not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only” -Matt.24:36(NKJV)

“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor hour in which the Son of Man is coming” Matt. 25:13(NKJV)

“And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many,will come in my name, saying’I am He’, and, ‘ The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.” Luke 21:8 (Bold added,NKJV)

“For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.” 2Corinthians 11:19,20(KJV)

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” 2Corinthians 11:13-15(KJV)

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2Thess 2:3,4(KJV)

“For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” Isaiah 14:13,14(KJV)

“A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him? The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city.” Ecclesiastes 10:14,15(KJV)

“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” Proverbs 14:15(KJV)

And with this I’ll end-BE A BEREAN!! “And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.” Colossians 2:4

Post navigation

596 Responses to Into the Woods

I feel sorry for Harold Camping, but more sorry for his followers. I was in a cult in the 1980s that followed Harold Camping, and God got me out of it. This cult went to Arizona and formed a communed in 1988 to wait for the end of the world in 1994. Whoever now is following Harold’s new heresies of the world ending in 2011, Annihilation, and all churches are of Satan, is sadly following the Devil. I know the mindset of a CAMPINGITE, because I used to be one. This is not the Christian Life.
God Bless,
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Hello Paula,
Welcome. Jim was once in ,what I call, a “1994 Cult”. There were a few groups back then that ‘forsook all” and holed up in wait of Christ’s supposed return on Sept. 6,1994. These groups from my understanding were not endorsed by Camping,they decided to go off on there own, but did hold to all Camping’s aberrant teachings up to that time(I say “up to that time ” because he’s added quite a few more since then).

If you want first hand accounts , contact Jim at his email he provides at the end of his posts. Also read comments at beginning of this thread where he lays out somethings that went on for him at that time.

Don’t be afraid or confused, if you’re leaning on the everlasting arms of Jesus, having faith in Him alone, remember –

“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”
(I John 4:18)

As far as confused, the one who is ,unfortunately for many of his listeners, is Camping.

You’re very welcome. As I said, he was intimately involved in 1994- and I had seen the results of it of some friends and co-workers at the time who swallowed Harold’s tripe hook,line and sinker. For some,especially those who acted grossly irresponsibly by charging up credit cards and resigning from jobs,it wasn’t very pretty.

Harold Camping is a false prophet who said the world will end in 1994, and was wrong, and he is a false prophet again by saying their will be a rapture of the Campingites on May 21, 2011, and for 5 months all of the unsaved “church” people will be tormented. On the contrary, all of the Campingites will be confused for those 5 months. On May 22, 2011, Harold Camping (if he is still alive) will say that he was wrong about the rapture, but the world will still end on Oct 21, 2011. So for 5 months, all of the Campingites will be the ones confused and tormented and hope that their CULT LEADER HAROLD CAMPING was correct about all of his heresies about the churches and the world ending on Oct 21, 2011. When Oct 22, 2011 comes, all of the brainwashed Campingites will be totally distraught, and will probably leave God altogether. This is the work of SATAN. I already saw this happen with the CULT group I was in that followed Harold Camping in the 1980s and early 1990s and they thought the world will end in 1994. Most of the cult members were so totally confused and hurt, that they left God altogether, and do no talk about God anymore. This is the work of the DEVIL
Harold Camping is a minister of Satan. He now aligns doctrinally very close to the Jehovah’s Witnesses who set a lot of dates for the end of the world, and also believe all Christian churches are of the Devil. Let me repeat myself with Love and Compassion for any follower of Harold Egbert Camping of Family Radio. Harold Camping is doing the work of Satan, and if you follow him, you are being decevied by the Devil and will be very confused and severely hurt when you leave your church and when the world does NOT end in 2011.
God Bless You and open all of our eyes.
Jim B.
Feel Free to email me,jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Yes , Jim , it is sad that a man who began so humbly has now leaped off the cliff in an attempt to do what others have tried and failed , that is , time and date our Lord’s return and consummation of history. As you point out ,the Jehovah’s Witnesses being one of the more illustrious examples-and I’ll add some in the dispensational circle aren’t far behind in this area. Saddest part of all is the human and spiritual wreckage this will leave in its wake when 2011 passes by uneventfully.

The Lord says “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”Mathew 24:36. You should listen to the word of God, and not the word of man. All I can say is don’t drink the kool-aid!! God bless!!

also john coetzee if u go the church on that very date year u will b decepted with the devil and you will b tricked cuz i don’t care if u go there beats me but if i were u i would not go there and be raptured.

Hello Johannes-while it is encouraging that that those who live in “little mud houses” in South Africa can receive radio signal(like the antennas-aeriels, and dishes I’ve seen on Mongolian yurts) not everything traveling over those airwaves is gospel truth-or like Mr. Camping used to say it is “another Gospel”. Which is where we see Mr. Camping at now-espousing another gospel(end -of-church-age,annihilation,”hope”? you are saved,again-date setting end of world) which will leave another trail of disillusioned,angry and some-lost-followers when 2011 passes by. Yes,may God have mercy! Be a Berean!

Johannes,
Unfortunately Mr Camping was wrong about the world ending in 1994, and he is wrong again about the world ending in 2011. Both dates are built upon the wrong foundation of his 13000 year old earth. The earth is about 6000 years old, and Geneisis 5 and 11 stands just as it reads. Mr Caming is a dangerous Cult Leader. I was in a cult formed by Mr. Camping’s teachings in the 1980s that believed the world will end in 1994. I used to believe all churches were apostate, this is a deception from the pit of hell. A church is anywhere believer gather together, as long as there are believers in the world, there are true churches. Listening to Mr Camping everyday is like being on drugs, you will get addicted, and will believe everything he teaches. You are being brain washed like I used to be, but God got me out of it. Thousands of people will be disillusioned after 2011 passes just as in 1994. May God open your eyes and grant you the peace and truth of the simple Gospel of Christ.
God Bless,
Jim B

Help!! My x-husband is Very Much into Camping and LOVES to be called a ‘Campinite”! The problem is…my x has visitation rites to see our 3 year old twins and is teaching them that i have been “marked of the beast “because i still go to church.He is trying to make them believe they hate me,and i am wicked and evil.I need some help.He is tring to get them away from me and more with him.I can’t afford a lawyer.I need some VERY SERIOUS HELP ASAP!!!! Will some one PLEASE tell me what i can do and how to do it.Childrens lives are at stake!

Hello Lisa-your situation is one of many I’ve heard of regarding Camping’s cult-like hold on an individual. This is very sad. And to use ones children as pawns sadder. Though I’m not an attorney and don’t have any “legal” training-I do know from past experiences of others there are legal avenues you can follow,often free to low income families(think legal aid societies). Don’t know what state you live in but I would seek counsel through one of these agencies or family courts. Our hearts are with you-and I know relating that doesn’t solve your problem,but be encouraged there are others out here who have known similar situations (cult dealings) and (I know ,cliche’) will be praying for you ,your children AND exhusband. Feel free to comment,update at any time-peace and rest….

Lisa,
Unfortunately Mr Camping gets a strong hold on people and without the grace of God there is not much you can do. Show you children the love of Christ in your life and explain to them that their Dad is following a bad teacher. I have been in a cult following Harold Camping, and when I disagreed with them I was condemnied to Hell. God set me free but my brother and friends waited for the world to end in 1994, and were disallusioned and confused when it did not happen. I will pray for you. Feel free to email me if you need any further help.
God Bless,
Jim Bjimbbbbbb@gmail.com

Let’s not generalize here. Since when is agreeing with another believer “following” them? If someone agrees with you over the Bible, have you started a “following”? How do you get them to stop “following” you? Not everyone that agrees with Camping formed a cultish commune in 1994. More grounded and sensible people didn’t. Camping emphatically states that any behavior or action of that kind is ludicrous and he advises people to continue a sensible routine in their lives. So how do you blame him for the ridiculous actions of others? It seems people are taking out their frustrations on Camping. It’s time to pray for wisdom and understanding, not be embraced by churches that preach man-made Gospels that differ greatly from anything Christ ever preached, and are only interested in staying in “business”. Satan truly is ruling in every earthly church today, and it is far past time to obey God and pray for his mercy.

Satan is ruling in Family Radio through Harold Camping. He predicted the world will end in 1994 and was wrong, and he is wrong againg about 2011. He now teaches the heresy of Annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witness, when the Bible is clear there is a Judgement Day on the Last Day where the Devil and all believer’s are eternally punished. All churches are NOT apostate, we are NOT in the final tribulation. Harold Camping is a false teacher, a false prophet, and a cult leader who will lead you down the path of destruction and confusion. When people fellowship and worship in Churches they are not trusting in their Church, they are obeying God and worshipping in the Biblical way set up by the New Testament. When you sit home by yourself and listen to Family Radio, you are disobeying God. In a few years the year 2011 will pass, and Mr Camping will die, and where will all the people who follow him be? They believe all Churches are apostate, so most will leave the faith and be devestated.
God Bless you and open your eyes.
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

It is deceptive to say Camping “predicted” the end in 1994 while omitting that he said it was a great possibility that 1994 was the end. He was not certain, hence the question mark after the title “1994?”.

Moving to a cultish seperatist commune rather than follow God’s command to occupy, proclaim the Gospel, and sound the warning until He comes would be disobeying God and going against Camping’s advice. I can see why the few who took it upon themselves to such ridiculous and rebellious behavior would be bitter now. Those are the people who have proven that their judgment cannot be trusted.

Again, since when is agreeing with a fellow believer “following” them? People are not only followers or leaders. The world is a scary place for people who think that way and they find themselves craving constant leadership. These people are very prone to join cults or put all their faith in churches rather than God. They want men to lead them, not God.

Only God can open anyone’s spiritual eyes. I come not to argue, but only to sound the warning. God is bringing this world to an end in 2011, and everyone would be wise to pray for mercy and understanding in the Word.

No it is not dececptive to say that Camping predicted 1994 as the end of the world. That is exactly what he said. He of course jumps back and forth between the use of the words, “may occur”, to CERTAIN or SURE IT WILL HAPPEN. Did you ever read his book 1994? Then, when it didn’t come to pass, he restated his position by saying that he should have added an additional 7 months to his calculations, lol. So first it’s 9/15/94 to 9/27/94, with his “likely time frame”, to saying that he is CERTAIN it will happen in this time frame, then when it didn’t, he stated that it will happen before the end of 1994, to yet another change of his own calculations that it will require adding another 7 months after the fact, and of course, it STILL did not happen. Now, here’s the question. What does all of this make Mr. Camping? Think this through very carefully now.

It is NOT deceptive to say that Camping predicted the end in 1994. Did you ever read his book 1994? He gave a date range of 9/15/94 to 9/27/94 with a qualifer that it is “likely” that this is when Christ will return. But then he also said that he is 99.99% CERTAIN that this is an accurate date range, then he changed his mind in the same context and said that he is SURE it will happen. So what we have here is Camping going from 99.99% sure, to 100% sure, by requalifying his statement the with quote “I’m sure it’s going to happen.” Sure does not mean 99.99%, it means 100%. Then when it didn’t occur, he said that he is certain to occur before the end of 1994. This is EXACTLY what everyone is talking about with this guy. What he is doing is subsituting God’s Authority with his own authority, because he is attempting here in this example to MAKE God’s time table fit his allorgical intrepretation of scriptures, which of course makes him a false teacher.

NO ONE KNOW THE EXACT DAY THE LORD WILL RETURN. WE CAN DIE AT ANY MOMENT AND MUST ALWAYS BE READY TO MEET THE LORD, AND NOT WORRY ABOUT TRYING TO FIND THE EXACT DATE. WE COULD KNOW WHEN HE IS CLOSE BECAUSE HE SAYS TO WATCH FOR CERTAIN THINGS, LIKE THE GOSPEL IN ALL NATIONS, ETC.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Since November 2007 Harold Camping started teaching the heresy of Annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Bible is clear there is a Judgement Day where all wIll appear before the Lord, and will be judged and forever be punished NOT annihilated or burned up…………

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left……

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels………

46 And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:42 “But whoever (HAROLD CAMPING) causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall NEVER be quenched— 44 where
Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘ Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

If you listen to Harold Camping, do you believe in his new heresy of AnnihilatioN? Mr. Camping condemned the churches for decades for not teaching enough Hell, and now he teaches annihilation !!! God is blinding him, not giving him new truth.

Listen my friends, I am not just blasting Camping because it fun, I am trying to warn you not to deceived like I was at one time. Mr Camping will die soon, and the world will not end in 2011, then where will you be?

We cannot change the Word of God to say no one CAN know the day of Christ’s return.

The timing of Camping’s life and death has no bearing on anyone’s relationship with God and their salvation.

We were created to be immortal. Eternal punishment is to have that immortality taken away. That’s why the reward is called “eternal life” and it is why God tells us do not fear who can destroy the body, but fear Him who can DESTROY both body and soul in hell. Is our body destroyed in a spiritual hell? No, Our body is destroyed in physical death. This passage says that the same condition that destroys our body also destroys our soul. Therefore, hell is death…and it is certainly an eternal condition.

Why do so many people automatically assume that sinful man will exist forever and therefore suffer for all eternity in hell? Please see Genesis 3:22-24. From this passage of scripture it is clear that after man sinned, God did what he could to make sure that sinful man would not live forever by eating of the Tree of Life. Indeed, God even placed the mighty cherubim and a flaming sword to prevent this from happening. It is only through Christ that man can receive eternal life. (“For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” -Romans 6:23). Those who die without Jesus as their Savior will ultimately be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire where they will be destroyed and cease to exist (this is the second death – see Revelation 20:14). On the other hand, and this may be where the confusion enters in, the Devil (that old serpent) and his angels (for which the Lake of Fire was originally prepared) at one time (before their fall from grace) probably did eat of the Tree of Life and will therefore exist forever. Because of their grave sin – having at one time existed in absolute perfection in the very presence of God Himself (see Ezekiel 28), will be separated from God in this same Lake of Fire. There they will consciously endure God’s wrath forevermore. Even the demons (fallen angels) themselves know this time is coming – see Matthew 8:29.

MARK 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ‘ Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘ Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.

REVELATION 14:If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Mr. Camping would say how does this go on forever if there is day and night. There is no day or night in heaven according to Rev 21,22, but God is saying there is day and night in hell. There was evening and morning in Genesis 1, before the sun and moon were created. So there is some type of day and night in Hell. either way it says FOREVER AND EVER, how do you get around that? Mr Camping does not even believe in Judgement Day anymore, he is deceived, and doing the work of the Devil. Mr Camping does not even believe that the Devil receives any punishment !!!!!!!!!

The Devil and Hitler, and all unbelievers just simply don’t exist anymore!!!!!
This is a heresy from the Pit of HELL!!!!
Mr Camping is under the delusion of SATAN!!!
Anyone following him is following a cult leader that will lead you down the path of destructiion and confusion. Mr. Camping thinks he is the only one with the truth and the rest of the Christian world for 2000 years is wrong!!!!! He now agress with the Jehovahs Witnesses, on Annihilation, setting dates, and all churches are apostate!!!!!!!!!

Revelation 20:The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

what does tormented day and night forever and ever mean?

Mr Camping twists scripture, the Bible warns against this:

2 Peter 3:16 ……untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Hell is death. It is the condition of being dead forever and ever. Jesus spoke in parables. Fire is destruction. In Jesus’ day, furnaces were used to destroy things; huge furnaces that burned continuously and whose fire was not quenched. When unbelievers are destroyed, it is permanent, it is forever and ever. He used the parable of fire many times to indicate the unsaved being destroyed. When something is burned up, it is destroyed forever. Otherwise, they are not destroyed at all and have kept their eternal life. That is contrary to God’s Word. When pronouncing man’s punishment, God said, “from dust you came, and unto dust you shall return”. Not, “Hey Adam, you can keep your eternal soul but I’ll make sure you are tortured for eternity”. The Bible also quite clearly describes unsaved man as spiritually dead and compares our soul to a rotting corspe.

Some may rebel against God’s Word by attacking Camping and others who believe the Bible, but that is fatally unwise and will lead to the very destruction the Bible warns about.

There certainly are false prophets and false teachers among us with destructive heresies. You can’t enter a single church establishment without finding one running the place. God has called us loudly and clearly to stay away from them.

Harold Camping is a false prophet. He predicted the world will end in 1994 and was wrong. He is predicting that the world will end in 2011 and is wrong again. Harold Camping is a false teacher that teaches the heresy of Annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Harold Camping teaches there is no Judgement Day and there is no Hell. The Bile is very clear that every idle word will be accounted for and that every knee shall bow to Christ. Harold Camping teaches that even the Devil does not get any punishment, but is burnt up on the last Day. These are heresies from the Pit of Hell and Satan.

Luke 16:
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

Rev 20:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You have to wonder why people attack a Bible teacher with false accusations in order to discredit his message. Harold Camping did not “predict” the end in 1994. He stated according to the available evidence, it was highly likely, but not certain that 1994 was the end. This was, and always has been, crystal clear, and it is still verifialbe by simply looking at the book which was incidently, written with a question mark to emphasize the uncertainty.

To say otherwise is a deliberate deception. Why? Satan is the father of lies, so beware when people are using lies to sway your opinion. Christ said liars are of their father, the devil. Beware even more when Scripture is intermingled with lies, for this is exactly how Satan operates.

For decades, Camping has been held in very high regard by thousands of pastors, preachers, church elders, and teachers. It was only when He taught God’s Word about the end of the church age, the nature of hell, and the details of the end that those same pastors began to malign him. This is only because God’s true Word is bad for their business and Camping refuses to compromise when it comes to the Bible.

God has raised a tremendous organization in Family Radio that reaches around the world with the true Gospel. By contrast, churches offer entertainment, compromise, watered-down gospels, and all manner of apostasy. As Christ said, it has become a den of thieves. Do not attend a church unless you want to worship the father of lies who comes as an angel of light (messenger of truth). Follow the example of Jonah who believed and obeyed God when he was told the day of the end. Follow the example of the Ninevites who had every reason to laugh at a foreigner coming with a doomsday message, but instead obeyed God.

Above all, read your Bible and pray for the mercies of wisdom and understanding.

I know how you think, Augustine, I used to think Mr Camping has the “true gospel”, and everything that disagreed was a false gospel. This is a deception. Mr Camping is a very smart man and speaks with authority, and has a lot of mental Bible knowledge. But the simple gospel is that anyone who has Christ as their savior, and has the Holy Spirit in them is a Christian. If a church believes that Christ is the only way of salvation, not of any works or rituals, and the Bible is the word of God, this is a church of Jesus Christ, even though no church or teacher is perfect. The churches had problems starting in the first century, read Revelation 2 and 3.
Here are the facts:

Mr Camping predicted there was a 99.9% chance the world would end in 1994, and many of his followers were 100% convinced. Someone commited suicide in 1994 in New Jersey because of his prediction. Some sold their houses and everything and gave it to Family Radio, and had nothing after the failed prophecy. Mr Camping does not say to do this, but does not say NOT to do this. Mr. Camping did not apologize to admit he was wrong about 1994.

The world will NOT end in 2011. Jesus Christ is very clear that know one knows the exact day and hour. We can know we are close, as things unfold, but not the exact day and hour. So when someone pinpoints the exact day, you know it is incorrect.

Mr Camping’s Biblical Calendar of History is wrong, the world is about 6000 years old according to the Bible Only. Genesis 5 and 11 stand just as it reads. Mr Camping went outside the Bible and believed that secular and scientific evidence would not allow for a 6000 years old earth, so he came up with another complex scheme, which is NOT Biblical. He proof for this is the 430 years in Egypt, that each “calendar patriarch” was born the year the other died. But in Genesis 46, Kohath was among those who entered Egypt, and could not have been born the year his patriarch died in Egypt. Genesis 5 and 11 is very clear, and the world is about 6000 years old.

We are not in the tribulation period yet and it is not the end of the “Church Age”.
As long as their are Christians in the world, we are to worship in accordance with the Bible with elders and deacons. We are not to sit home by ourselves and listen to family radio. This is what the Devil wants. Christians to be useless, and isolated.

Mr Camping for 40 years taught the Biblical teach of Judgement Day and Eternal punishment faithfully. But as of November 2007, he started teaching the heresy of Annihilation, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults. This is not new revelation that God is giving him in the last days. This is God allowing him to be blinded by Satan. One of the most simple and clear teachings in the Bible, is that there is a Judgement Day, and everyone will answer to God for their actions, and be punished.

Mr Camping is very smart, and knowledgable about the Bible, and speaks with authority. It is easy to trust him for what he teaches. I used to do this. I was saved through Family Radio and Mr Camping’s teachings. However Mr Camping has now strayed from the word of God.

Is Mr Camping now 100% sure the world will end in 2011? When the world does not end, will you admit he is a false prophet, and may be wrong about othe teachings also?

All we have to do is wait, and you will find out that the world will not end, and you have been deceived.

Thanks for offering comments that I know you believe are helpful, but are actually very destructive. I can’t accept your suggestions for the following reasons.

You continue to describe “1994?” as a failed prediction, but the more you say it, the more the falsehood is magnified as I explained in my previous post. Repeating a lie doesn’t make it any more true, although in our sinful society, it usually prevails. Yes, Camping said he was 99.9 percent sure. Was that a mathematical statistic, or a figure of speech? Have you ever said you were “certain” you left your keys somewhere, but then found that you left them somewhere else? How can that be if you said you were certain (which is more than 99.9%)? Does that mean you cannot be trusted…or was it just an emotional figure of speech instead? Whenever a lie is told to advance an argument, I know not to be deceived, as Christ called such people children of the father of lies, the devil.

You state emphatically the world will not end in 2011, but at the same time you say no one knows when it will end. So how do you know it won’t end in 2011? Has God given you assurance of when He will not return? It sounds more like resisting God. To resist the glorious coming of God’s Kingdom, especially with this kind of double-speak, is another huge warning sign for me. The one most afraid of His coming is the devil and his demons, as seen when one of the demons panicked upon seeing Christ and asked if He had come to destroy them “before the time”. Apparently, even Satan knows something of the timing of the end.

You mentioned that the Bible says no one knows the day or the hour. Why do you assume that this denotes a time reference? To “know” also means to experience. When He told the apostles that it was not for them “to know” of that day, the context suggests it meant they are not to experience it, which they weren’t. They were asking when it was going to be so they could watch for it. The phrase “of that day and hour no one knows” could very well mean no one has ever experienced such an event, and no one can even imagine what it will be like. The Bible also says “there is none righteous”. Does that mean none can become righteous? No. We know it means no one is righteous of themselves unless God intervenes. In the same way, no one knows the timing of the end by themselves unless God intervenes and reveals it. Either way, you are choosing a very narrow view of those verses and you are not hearing the way God speaks to us through His Word.

I take issue to being characterized as a “follower” of Camping or “trusting” in Camping. Since when is finding fellowship in God’s Word with a fellow believer “following” them? This is just another way of trying to discredit the message via the messenger, and to assume a guilt by association viewpoint. I suppose if I believe what you just said, I can be criticized by someone else of being a follower of JimB. To use that argument and another show of denial that God is opening the understanding of people all over the world…not that those people are following Camping. He happens to be the one with a worldwide broadcasting radio network.

Lastly, critics keep asking what will happen when the date passes and nothing happens. Obviously, that’s not the important question because under those circumstances life continues. The question is what will you say if you witness the rapture of believers in 2011, and you are not taken? I understand many will be so bewildered upon being left behind, so certain that they were going, will appeal to Christ, and we all know what He will say; “I never knew you, depart from me…”

I will not tell you in kind to open your eyes because only God can open anyone’s spiritual eyes and ears to true understanding. You will be in my prayers, along with many. We know only God’s elect will inherit the Kingdom, so I pray, may He show us all mercy.

Augustine,
I used to think like you and was convinced MR Camping had the true gospel, and everything else was false. The Churches have not watered down the gospel, Mr Camping has watered down the gospel, and reduced what Christ has done on the Cross for us. Mr Camping does not believe in Judgement Day or Hell anymore. These are very clear basic teachings in the Bible. If someone can not see these teachings, then your authority is man, and not the Bible. Your final authority is Mr Camping, and mine is the Bible, so we will never come to agreement. I told many people over the years this same thing that they are following man. And after many years, they have contacted me and agreed with me.
Here is what will happen in a few years, the world will not end in 2011, and Mr Camping will pass on, and maybe even Family Radio will be broken up. Many dissalusioned followers of Mr Camping will either fosake God all together, or take many years to be deprogrammed and come to the truth. I have been where you are now, and no one could convince me otherwise, so I know how you think. So remember in a few years, if you need someone to talk to, please email me.
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

See, Jim, you say you used to think like me. But you have already stated that you “followed” Camping. And you joined some kind of separatist commune to await for Christ to return in 1994. The idea of joining a separatist commune to me is being rebellious and disobedient toward God, and just irresponsible, ridiculous, and immature behavior. So how you can compare my thinking with yours is beyond me. We obviously have never had anything in common when it comes to faith. I don’t “follow” Camping anymore than I “follow” anyone I agree with on any issue. I happen to agree with Camping over what God says. I don’t listen to Camping to find out what God is saying. I find that in the Bible and only as much as God is merciful enough to reveal.

I’m sorry the consequence of your past behavior is a bitterness that has hardened your heart, but your issue is with God. Be warned. That is all I can do.

I have made mistakes in the past. I was saved through Family Radio and Mr Camping, and have a lot of respect for what he has done over the years. I got involved with a very good Bible Study group that focused around Mr Camping’s teachings. Gradually it got worse, and was hard to detect. God opened my eyes before the group left to wait for the end of the world. I have been hurt and have some bitterness. I know your situation is not exactly like mine. I am doing my best to use my bad past experience to help others, though I may not be perfect in doing this. Do not focus on what I have personally done in the past, but please go over the verses that were brought up here. There is no way around the fact that there is a resurrection of unbelievers, a Judgement Day, and eternal punishment for sins, for the Devil and unbelievers. Mr Camping’s new doctrine of Annihilation since November 2007 is his worst doctrine yet. I do not wish to go back and forth with you anymore and get involved with personal attacks, I have been involved with this before in other sites. So let us both pray for wisdom, and see what happens.
God Bless everyone who is dealing with these serious issues,
Jim B.

I think you have offered a wise and reasonable approach for all of us to take. And I am glad you are no longer involved with the people who led many astray. We do have to be careful not to follow the doctrines of men. Obiously, those people invented the doctrine of separation for themselves. I have traveled the world and the country, and have been deep in the workings of churches. From church corporate headquarters on down, they are concerned only with the doctrines of men, and treat the Bible as nothing more than a book of marketing suggestions, although they will profess otherwise for obvious reasons. It does not matter how faithful a church leader is. He puts the rules of his church, the doctrines of men, before God’s. It is impossible to worship both God and Mammon.

It is true that many if not most churches are as described above, but NOT ALL churches are like this. To make a blanket statement that every last gathering together of believers in the world that call themselves a church is under the rule of Satan is a very dangerous statement. Out of all of those billions of people in the millions of churches in the world, if there exists one believer that is filled with the Holy Spirit, you are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by saying they are unsaved under the rule of Satan. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is what the Pharisees did against Jesus, and Jesus said those who do this are in big trouble.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Notice also it says eternal condemnation, NOT Annihilation like Harold Camping now teaches like the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach.

It is very serious in God’s eyes to make global statements that every single church and christian organization outside of Family Radio is of Satan and apostate. This is the definition of a cult, believing one strict set of doctrines (heresies) are the only way to get to Heaven. The Gospel is simple, if someone has Christ as their Saviour, and is filled with the Holy Spirit, then they are saved.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Please do not put up with the complex heresies of Harold Egbert Camping of Family Radio. He is a cult leader that will confuse you and put you in fear of your salvation, and you will think that mental knowledge of the Bible is the road to Salvation, and not simply trusting in Christ.

Hey Jim B!
I appreciate your input in this topic. I also had been bewitched by the gentleman Camping. I thank God though, that by his mercy he snatched me out of that cult! The 2011 date did it for me man. I said ENOUGH! And now he comes with this Jehova witness heresy of annihilation? It’s almost TOO obvious that this man has been given over to his own falsehood!
I would like you to please share some verses with me so I can show my brother who is neck deep in the teachings of Harold Camping. Perhaps show me where his calendar is not biblical and even off. My brother is unfortunately even beginning to sound like Harold with that monotone voice saying, “Is the Bible YOUR authority or what you’ve been taught by the chuirches?” When I show him the verses you’ve presented about eternal torment etc. he always has some rebuttals which he grabs from the mind of Harold Camping.
Any advice? We currently hold a fellowship on Sundays in my mom’s house and I can feel the friction in the air when we bring up topics such as “watching and being prepared for the coming of our Lord,” or “hell.” Thx!
GBU
Carlos Mcarlitos07109@aol.com

Carlos and all,
Please visit the Depart Out Website at http://www.departout.com, me and others have posted a lot of good information there about a lot of subjects on Harold Camping.

Hopefully after 2011 passes and Mr Camping is taken from this earth, of all of these heresies will go away. I am praying that Family Radio can be reformed in the future into a Biblical Christian ministry.

Feel free to email me with any further questions or comments.
Thanks,
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

You all have written an awful lot here and this is just one of many web sites to do likewise, I can’t bring myself to read everything to find the answer to my question. So forgive me if it was answered please and re answer in that case? My question is simply this: Can anyone here point me to a bonifide church that actually preaches #1 That The Scriptures ALONE are God’s revelation to mankind today, excluding any other supposed revalation such as so called “tongues” dreams or visions, miracles other than that of salvation which can not truly be seen by anyone other than the person saved anyway and #2 The total infallibility of Scripture (specifically the sixty six books that were for instance the same translated into English for example for that most printed edition known as The KJV (please I am NOT suggesting in the premise that ANY translation is innerrant, only that texts used in that translation that is only copies of the Scriptures in thier original autographs are innerrant. (Nor do I at all wish a rehash the inclusion of the apocrypha in the first copies of the 1611 edition #3 The total depravity of man, specifically meaning that it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY person to a single thing to effect, aid or assist in his or her OR anyone Else’s salvation. Meaning specifically that ultimately the salvation of ANY person has nothing to do with an individual’s merits but instead is altogether dependent on God’s p reselection of them BEFORE they were created to be one of His “elect” Also the doctrine can not include anything that even sounds like the following “God foresaw the ones that would a. want to be saved b.would accept Christ c.anything else at all remarkable compared to all the ones not being saved etc etc In other words I am trying to build a
barrier here for smart alecs who would show off their knowledge or to any lawyer types that just want to find some loophole to “win” ..whatever they think they would win …rather than for example to admit they don’t know of any such church. Because having listened carefully to HC, he is emphatically stating that no such bonifide church that actually exist and teach these things exists today I’m inclined to add that they would also be willing to be corrected by Scripture but really that goes hand in hand with trusting the Scriptures to be inerrant. Why do I search this out? Because I personally have never found such a church though I searched diligently for a church home for my family. Oh I found churches with a dusty statement of beliefs still on record, that is literally in disuse on the shelves that sounded very close to Scriptural, but in every case the congregation and more specifically the pastors no longer adhered to said doctrines AT ALL. So if Harold really does have THIS right, then THAT is AMAZING all itself! I mean the infallibility of Scripture and God’s sovereigh Grace are easily spotted in the Bible even by laymen, how can it possibly be that no churches fully endorse these?? Unless he is right! Without even the mind to follow all his Bible reasoning and math proofs, I am inclined to believe it based on my own two eyes and what they have personally seen in the churches … show me he is wrong? Give me the name(s) and contact info of such church’es and I will try to investigate if they truly qualify and make a liar out of HC! Funny I never hear ANYONE calling in and disputing it even!

I am currently Pastor at Hope Community Fellowship Church in Weissport, PA.

I can answer your questions…

#1 – Sola Scriptura is a key element to the teaching at our church. Namely, we look to God’s Word alone for our learning and teaching. There is no other infallible authority by which we can know and understand God or his Will for our lives.

#2 – We also believe and teach that the original writing of each of the 66 original books of Scripture are infallible. Through textual criticism there is evidence enough to suggest that we have a very solid idea of the original manuscripts read, but that we cannot be 100% because none of the originals remain. However, many english translations can be trusted to give true Biblical teaching.

#3 – Semi-pelagianism (think Catholic teaching) teaches that man has some ability to help in the Salvation process. However, Scripture clearly indicates in Eph. 2:8-9 that Salvation comes through God who gives both Grace and Faith to the believer. Our Church teaches that man is totally depraved and unable to do anything to save himself, that God must make alive the dead in order for a man to be saved.

Harold Camping simply uses straw-man arguments to paint Churches as the enemy. While in keeping people from going TO church and engaging the spiritual men and women there, he keeps his followers from being exposed to the truth, that Harold Camping is a heretic.

The dates in 2011 are wrong like Mr Camping was wrong in 1994. We are to be ready to die, or for Christ to return at any time and not worry about when the exact date is. Mr Camping is a dangerous cult leader, and false prophet, and false teacher who teaches the heresy of annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Stop listening to him and find some grounded Christians to fellowship with.

Mark 13:33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

Let me know if I can help with anything else, and feel free to email me.

If you listen to the churches who want to stay in corporate business, they will tell you not to “worry” about the end. Their motivations are money, job security, and popularity. But if you listen to God, who speaks to us only through His Word, He commands us to to be concerned about the timing of the end, and tells us that if we are faithful to search His Word, we can and will know the timing of His coming. He also tells us the world of corporate churches is under condemnation. Their reaction to this message is most telling. Trust God, not man.

I am not the owner of this site, but everyone including Augustine is welcome to share their opinions here, that is what this blog site is for. I do not trust any church, and do not agree with everything my church teaches. I go there to fellowship with other Christians, and worship God. My church teaches the simple Gospel, and to live the Christian life. I trust God and His word for truth. I am bringing up Scripture verses, and show us where the Bible says the Rapture will be on May 21, 2011. On May 22, 2011, you will find out that Mr Camping is a false prophet, like he was about 1994.

No one is saying not to worry about the end. We have constantly repeated that we have to be always ready to die or for Christ to return. If we are always ready for his return, then it doesnt matter when we die, or he returns. If we believe a false date, then we may be dissalusioned after that date passes, and may not be ready when he really returns or we die.

Please address these verses that the Lord Jesus Christ is telling the believers.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Luke 12:35 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; 36 and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. 38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

Mr Camping twists clear scriptures to his own destruction, he believes his interpretation of the Bibles is a higher authority than the Bible. He is a dangerous cult leader, false prophet, and false gospel teacher teaching the heresy of annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults. He believes he is the only one with the truth and all other churches and christian organizations are under the rule of satan. Harold Camping is under the delusion and direct control of Satan, causing confusion and conflict in the christian world. God says by the fruits you will know a false prophet, and Mr Camping has borne a lot of evil fruit, causing a lot of pain and confusion in many peoples lives.

I, Harold Camping, and millions of others who believe God’s warning about the end do not fit the profile of some ominous cult. Interestingly enough, two characteristics of a cult are censoring opposing views and character assassination. These are two very prominent features of the arguments opposing God’s 2011 warning. Someone just asked that I be censored, and there are several examples of character assassination of Camping on this thread.

I, Camping, and others are sounding a warning. No one is asking for a following. No one is pretending. No one had a problem with Family Radio for 40 years, but when the warning of the end was sounded, the reaction is exactly as the Bible says. The warning is a threat to what people hold most dear…a love of this world.

Where does God say May 21, 2011? Why does God place thousands of seemingly arbitrary numbers in the Bible, yet so many of the numbers are duplicates of each other? Why does God give us so many lineages, exact timing of events, and ages of various people, all in such sequential order that we can link them all the way back to Adam? Why would He do all this and then tell us “Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment”. Ecc 8:5. God says these things to fulfill his promise when He said: “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day, we are not of the night, nor of darkness.”

God also tells us that those who know of the timing of His coming are watchmen, and are to sound the warning when we SEE Him coming. Where can we see Him coming? In the Bible, because He has revealed His coming to us there. The parable makes no sense otherwise. How else do we see Christ coming? It is obvious that God is telling us that we will know of His return, and most of the world will completely ignore our warnings.

I have been through this already leading up to 1994. There is no reason to keep going back and forth, please mark your calendar for May 22, 2011, and we will talk about this more at that time.
God Bless,
JimBjimbbbbb@gmail.com

I can hardly wait for May 22, 2011 myself, when the HC heresy will finally be exposed, and the lies will have an end. Unfortunately by then many may have been led astray, or will fall away like some posts suggested. God have mercy on them.

When we read God’s Word with faith, putting our own understanding aside and praying for the mercy of wisdom, and when God is merciful to reveal it, we see that all of these similar numbers, timelines, events, and geneologies in the Bible lead us to May 21, 2011 quite unmistakeably. What other purpose to these numbers serve in the Gospel message? Why are they there? Why does Christ tell us that we WILL SEE Him coming in enough time to warn others, and some will not believe us?

The day is coming. God has revealed when, just as He did for Noah, Lot, and the Ninevites.

NO,JIM B IS NOT THE OWNER OF THIS SITE,I AM. AND THERE WILL BE NO CENSORING HERE. If Mr. Camping himself cared to comment,he would be graciously received,as I feel all have here who came to make their case concerning the teaching of Mr. Camping.A nod and tip of the hat to WordPress,good filters.
That aside,it has been very interesting,for I knew this would take on a “life of its own”,as seeming most sites do dealing with echatology and in particular Mr.Camping’s brand. So I’ve allowed it to “run its course”. Also realised early on I won’t have to post about annihilation or “Depart out” (leave your church) doctrine,the thread would just morph into the subject. Seen it happen time again.
I feel Jim nails it with “mark your calendar for May 22,2011”. I submit-does it matter? If you are a believer,walking in HIS Spirit and leaning on His everlasting arms,He could choose to consumate history tomorrow-HE is Sovereign,and you would (should) welcome it.Or,He could come on May 21,2011-(I know,some are picking up stones now,just follow me on this)- Not because Mr. Camping says so,but because HE(the Lord), is Sovereign(Campingites are now screaming-“NO,its because His Word says so and Mr.Camping found it out!!Please…its “Script-torture” subjectivism).
Now concerning the “Depart Out” doctrine,the premise is wrong.Its become a debate of definition. The Church(ekklesia) is not denominations,it’s HIS body,remember? HIS Church (Big “C”)is perfect;denominational churches(little “c”)are imperfect,as anything man-made is(now Campingites don’t get your hopes up here!!). When you realise your place as a believer(salvation)in HIS Body,you are part of the Church(ekklesia)-how does one “depart out” or leave that? When believers gather together,they have worship,read and teach the Word and “have church”v.(lower-case “c”). Mr. Camping’s “fellowship” would fit that definition.Full disclosure-I empathise with the “Home church” movement,also feel believer’s can gather together any where in HIS name,for HE wil be there in the midst of them.
Now,some here have charged Mr. Camping of being a cult or cult like. I will leave some definitions here and let the reader decide and see where this goes.
From Denver Seminary professor Gordon Lewis-“A cult,then is any religious movement which claims the backing of Christ or the Bible,but distorts the central message of Christianity by 1) an additional revelation,and 2) by displacing a fundamental tenet of the faith with a secondary matter.
Christian Research Institute founder Walter Martin-“a cult might also be defined as a group of people gathered about a specific person or person’s misinterpretation of the Bible.”

When refuting the Biblical teaching of the timing of the end, the question is repeatedely asked, “Why does it even matter that we know the timing of judgement day?” I submit that it matters because God reveals it. We should respect all information that God reveals.

Noah knew that “someday” a flood would destroy the earth. All Noah could tell people was that it would happen “someday”, with everyone being lulled into a false sense of security that no one should worry about it, just as they are today. When God revealed that the flood would happen in seven days, why did it matter?

And when, in II Peter, God implies He will destroy the earth 7,000 years after the flood, it matters. And when we see the timeline in the Bible that tells us May 21, 2011 is 7,000 years to the day since the flood began, why does it matter?

When Jonah told Ninevah judgment was coming in forty days, why did it matter?

It will be too late after May 2011. Heed the warning. I ask for nothing. FR gives its materials away. They ask for nothing. Be warned. Cry to God for mercy. The real God. Not the idols men create and call the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses. Not the God the corporate churches create. As Christ said, they have their reward. Be warned. May God have mercy on us.

augustine that date is fasle. Also other user’s would ignore u about that and i hope u fall for
satan trap. rev 20 v 10 and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast abd the false prophet had been thrown.

also (Amos 3:7) surely the sovereign lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

OK, Augustine,good to hear from you,and I see you nicely side-stepped the issues I addressed in my previous comment on this thread to keep it in the tight parameters of the “four walls” of the “date”(judgement day),but I’m about to blow those walls out now to expand this debate alittle. First,I did qualify my comment of ” does it matter” with “if you are a believer…..He could choose to consumate history tomorrow-He is Sovereign…..” (re-read the 2nd paragragh). No one knows the date they will die,(and we will,death rate is one per person) but we are to have our house in order,to be ready when our soul is required of us. If we as believer’s exist in this state of readiness-the date of the Lord’s return is of no negative consequence to us by virtue of our readiness.

Sure ,both Noah and Jonah were given specific instructions FROM the Lord, on events to occur in their lifetimes and it mattered because both dealt with the souls of men; i.e.,salvation. By Mr. Camping’s own admission “the church age has ended” and by extension-evangelism , so,no one “is getting saved any longer” ;if this is indeed the case then Augustine,your warning people of the date is a moot point. But again,as in my last post,lets get our definitions correct. I speak of The Church (Christ’s Body)NOT corporate,denominational “churches”(lower case “c”). What “Church Age” did Christ institute?

OK…now in 2Peter earth’s destruction 7000 yrs after the flood – implied-(definition:to indicate indirectly,to hint,suggest)? Just as Mr. Camping has “implied” May 21,2011(end) through his numerological/allegorical method of interpretation? A method which is purely subjective-where exegesis occurs not from the text but from ones imagination,of what they “see” at the moment? Hmmmm……my next post will be of great interest to all..- sort of…er..”implied”-advertisement,to finally hear Mr. Camping answer to some of what has been debated here….stay tuned…..

We just confirmed that next Tuesday and Wednesday, July 28th and 29th, I will be debating Harold Camping on the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program on the topic of Camping’s teaching that the church has ceased to exist. As some of you may know, Harold Camping has been teaching for years now that the church age has ended; that no one can get saved in the church any longer; that true believers should flee the churches, etc. I wrote my book Dangerous Airwaves in response to Camping’s teachings on this topic. Well, Chris Arnzen has once again found a way to make a debate happen that nobody thought could ever happen. So, for two days next week we will debate this topic. I will defend the biblical position that Christ’s church remains His bride and that Christians are to be faithful in their service to Christ through her, and that Harold Camping’s wild-eyed gymnastics with the text, his use of allegory and numerology, etc., is a gross abuse of inspired Scripture. Make no mistake about it: this will end up being a debate over how you handle the Bible and allow God to speak. As I said in response to Camping years ago in Dangerous Airwaves:

The grammatical-historical method of interpretation is a means of guaranteeing that we are hearing what the text says, not what we wantthe text to say. This is a vitally important point, especially when it comes to the Scriptures. When reading secular texts we are not nearly as tempted to insert a foreign meaning into the words of the author, since it is rare that such a text would be given sufficient importance to warrant the effort. We naturallyapply sound rules of interpretation to such documents since we are not at all threatened by theresults. But when it comes to the text of the Bible, much more is at stake. But if we are consistent in our beliefs, and truly want to hear what the Scriptures are saying and not what we want them to say or feel they should say, we need to have a means of reading the text that does not allow us to slipour own thoughts into the text under the guise of interpretation. The Bible needs to say the same thing in each language, in each culture, in each context, or it cannot be the means of communicating the truth to us that Christians believe it to be. The grammatical-historical method allows us to be both honest and consistent with the text of the Bible.
The fundamental reason we must reject allegorical interpretation of the biblical text is really quite simple: it is unverifiable. That is, there is no possible way to determine that the results of using allegorical methodology have anything whatsoever to do with the actual meaning of the text. One man’s allegorical understanding can have no compelling force upon the thinking of another, for that person may well seesomething completely different in the text. Since the means provided by human language to communicate meaning are by-passed in the allegorical method, there are no “safety nets” to keep one from wandering off into the most fanciful of “interpretations” of the text. Hence, the person who says “the allegorical meaning of this text is such and so” cannot claim the actual authority of the text for his interpretation, for the actual source of the interpretation is not the text itself but the mind of the interpreter. This is why we say there can be no compelling force to one’s allegorical interpretation, for it is merely personal, and if anyone else accepts it, it is because they choose to trust the allegorical interpreter rather than the text itself. Allegorical interpretations can have no more authority than the one proclaiming them.
When applied to the biblical text this methodology is devastating. The authority of the text is destroyed. No allegorical interpreter can honestly say, “The Word of God says,” for in reality, the Word of God has been replaced with the more or less fancifulthoughts of the interpreter himself. The Christian doctrine of inspiration sets the Christian Scriptures apart from all other claimed divine revelations in that Christians believe the Scriptures are God-breathed. This means the written word communicates to us infallibly the very speaking of God in a miraculously personal manner (Matthew 22:31). The authority of the Word is not based upon the interpreter but upon the inspired text itself. The message of the written Word is the same through the course oftime. Without this affirmation, the Word becomes a purely subjective document, incapable of communicating divine truth with certainty.
This point cannot be over-emphasized. Allegorical interpretation destroys biblical authority. It replaces the divine message with the imaginations of the interpreter, and as such opens the door wide for every kind of abuse of the text. False teachers, seeking to draw away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:30), utilize such means to release themselves from the unchanging standards of Gods Word and insert, under the guise of thus sayeth the Lord, their own pet doctrines and teachings. The Christian who is untaught and unstable, a novice in the Word, can easily be taken in by such a teacher who exudes confidence and often hides the false teachings behind a veneer of self-professed orthodoxy. So when we defend proper exegetical methodology, we are not merely arguing about tangential issues, we are, in reality, defending the very authority of the Word, and its ability to speak with clarity and force to each generation and in every place.

Christ commands us to love our enemies. To hope and pray for the mercy of God for them is the greatest show of this love, without having to actually “like” the person. But to “hope” for someone to suffer Satan’s fate speaks volumes about one. I know exactly with whom I am dealing. I am sounding God’s warning. If I am beleived to be wrong, why even argue against me, since time will tell? I am not asking for anything.

Also, I continue to be baffled by those who claim that no one can know the timing of judgment day (even though the Bible does not say that), but they are convinced that they know when it won’t happen. That is wishful thinking that it will never happen. That is resisting Christ instead of welcoming Him because we are all like Lot’s wife.

Lastly, I am glad you correctly quoted the book of Amos which shows that God indeed intends to reveal the timing of judgment day to his servants…not the servants of the doctrines of men preached in today’s corporate church.

Some things we agree on somewhat, and a debate focuses on disagreements, so I don’t usually address everything. It’s not an attempt to “side-step”. No need for accusations without asking for an explanation first.

Very much agreed on the fact that all should live in accordance with the fact that they can die any moment. Over 200,000 a day currently do die. This is a separate issue than judgment day. People died everyday in Noah’s time as well, but the end was still an important issue to God. Also, it shows God’s great mercy in revealing the timing of the end.

Concerning the end of the church age, again, very much agreed that the true Church is the eternal, spiritual body of Christ made up of all those who are saved (elect) of God with Christ as the head. This is what we are to embrace, not depart from. We are to depart the man-made church, represented by all corporate churches today that claim to have the authority to baptize, preach, and evangelize in the name of God. They no longer have that authority, are completely and altogether run by Satan via the corrupt hearts of men and his love of the world, no matter how good of a public relations message they have.

I’m not sure how you could create this thread and comment prolifically on it, yet be completely wrong about two important facts. Nowhere does Camping teach that we are to depart the eternal, true spiritual Church. He teaches that we are to embrace it, as the Bible teaches. Nowhere does Camping teach that no one is being saved. He teaches the opposite; that more people are being saved today than ever before in history, as the Bible indicates, but not under the authority of earthly churches.

The misinformation you are posting is the exact opposite of what is being taught. Since Satan is the father of lies and inventor of deception, this probably does more to please him. I pray that Satan is not using your thread to lie to those who may be seeking truth.

No need for sarcasm on my use of the word “implied”. It’s a word of my choosing. I didn’t consult a dictionary. Let’s keep it in context. If that verse is isolated, it is an implication. I was only speaking of that verse which “implies” 7000 years to destruction. Other “implications” must support it. Indeed, that verse is not isolated and we have many implications of May 21, 2011 in the Bible being Judgment Day.

Concerning cults; the definition of a cult is in the eye of the beholder. “Cult” is a subjective accusation against a group. Christ and the apostles were persecuted for forming a “cult” that went against the popular religious establishment of the day, and highly offended them.

Concerning readiness and specific instructions; you stated there will be no consequence on Judgement Day if we are ready. That is correct. But Christ further details what it means to be ready in the parable of the watchmen. We are commanded to SEE Him coming. How do we SEE Him coming when others do not? We see Him coming in the Word of God because the Word tells us when He is coming. Others do not see this, even though they argue that they are saved. Then we are commanded to sound the warning that He is coming. If we do not SEE Him coming and sound the warning at His approach, and continue to casually say He is coming “someday” then we are one of those who thinks we are saved but are not. We are one of those who will say “Lord, Lord” and He will say “Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. You never knew me.” Then there will be “gnashing of teeth” which indicates rage and disbelief when we realize the door of the ark is shut.

We have specific instructions just as Noah did. our instructions are to watch for His coming in the Bible. When we see Him coming, we are to sound the warning that He is almost upon us. We can’t do this thinking He is coming “someday”. God has always been, and always will be specific. Noah knew the flood was coming “someday”, but he was warned seven days out, and we are warned seven thousand years out. As the Bible says, “a day is as a thousand years with the Lord, and a thousand years as a day” while speaking specifically about Noah’s seven day warning. Coincidence in the Holy Word of God?

I’m familiar with James White’s writings. There are tons of material like that out there that just speaks in circles and obey man-made church doctrine because they are blind to the truth, and will always be unless and until God reveals truth to them. (Imagine how many websites and churches there would be against Christ if He had come in today’s age).

Neither I nor Harold Camping nor anyone else can reveal truth. Only God. I’m just here to sound the warning of God’s truth that we now know the timing of Judgment Day on May 21,2011. May God show His great mercy.

Hello again,Augustine,ok, I do stand corrected on one point,Mr.Camping doesn’t say no one is being save today,just not through “corporate churches”(though, he Did previously state no one was saved between 1988-1994,even though Family Radio still gave mission salvation reports at that time…oh well,someone didn’t get the word!). Mr. Camping now states salvation is one individual at a time,but, hasn’t that always been the case? Churches (denominations) don’t save,never did,and,any that Claim they do are not “Christian” and normally have a salvation by works. No “body of believers” (church) I’ve ever been to has made the claim of salvation en mass by virtue of ones attendance or doing “A-B-C…” of the church by-laws. To just cut to the chase, the dirty little secret has been said that Mr. Camping has had problems with “church authority” that doesn’t “rubber stamp” all of his views as gospel. Could it be why he left his Reformed church in 1988 and pulled a group of “followers” with him to start his “Bible fellowship” ,which is just a “church” by another name? Don’t care how you slice it,baloney is baloney.

This brings me back to what I said earlier about a debate of definition,the Church Age Christ instituted,He is the Head of,no man or denomination-this is not misinformation. Mr. Camping would have been more apt to title that book “The End of Church Denominations and….”. So, which “corporate church ” did you leave or are you a part of the “fellowship”….just curious.

You also reinforce my point, yes, there are many dying everyday-all the more reason to preach Christ crucified-yes,Jesus,who is very conspicuous by His absence in this debate. Again, those that realise their salvation in Christ need not worry when He comes. Mr. Camping would do well to worry more about spreading the Good News than a convoluted, date of return that even many of his “devotees” can’t even follow or come up with independently. This has become all about Camping,and actually takes the focus off the One who can give hope for ones future!

We haven’t even delved yet into the numerological gymnastics that began with his book “Adam When?” where he “discovers” the “key”…
you want to speak of “circular reasoning”? Harold is the master!

For those interested in a “time line” of Harold Camping’s numerological gnosticism, go to:

Just a side note,as I read somewhere in defense of Mr. Camping,I paraphrase-“to just leave him alone ,if he’s wrong,he’s wrong”. And that would be ok-if it were just Harold involved. But I’ve seen the human wreckage up close,after his first failed attempt to “date” the Parousia (1994),hence,why this and many other blogs and websites like it exist.

Put your faith in no man but the Son of Man,Christ Jesus…and you WILL find mercy ….Yes…BE WARNED……

Neither I, Camping, or Family Radio ever taught that the churches saved anyone, although many churches behave as though they do. They were the vehicle through which God evangelized the world and brought His elect under the hearing of the Word.

Concerning no one being saved from 1988-1994, I’d say that is sound theory at best. A “salvation report” may or may not be true. We can’t know when someone actually became saved. These are some of a few issues on which I don’t entirely agree with Camping or Family Radio.

Christ also had problems with “church authority”. He called them vipers, hypocrytes, and more. They killed Him. Certainly we are not to follow those who would lead us astray. Why do you fault Camping for it?

It is very incorrect to say a Bible Fellowship is the same as a church. This shows a lack of understanding of what a church is.

You said: “No “body of believers” (church) I’ve ever been to has made the claim of salvation en mass by virtue of ones attendance or doing “A-B-C…” You haven’t seen the throngs of people at rivers, beaches, and pools being baptized and celebrating that fact that they just became saved by virtue of that act? They do teach that. Or how about the televangelists praying over the “congregation” and saving them (if they give enough money), or how about just having membership in the Roman Catholic Church? That’ll “save” you too.

Camping has been teaching on Family Radio for decades, broadcasting around the world. When this worldwide radio network was helping the churches, they all loved Family Radio and Camping. But FR is following God’s truth which no longer helps the local churches. As a result, if you look at all the websites and blogs like this one, 99% of the content is simply character assassination. Character assassination is the behavior of those whose “dirty little secret” is in jeopardy of being revealed. They don’t talk of God’s truth, Christ’s glory, and the great miracle and mercy of salvation. Rather than try to build up their own message, they simply try to tear down someone else. You are correct, senecus. They make it all about Camping. Just run a google search of his name. This plainly reveals their motives. Do they not truly believe that God is on their side?

The websites and blogs proclaiming the end in 2011 are multiplying. Millions of tracts are being printed and distributed. The message is multiplying in all forms of media. We will continue to send this message out as loud and clear and as far and wide as Christ our Lord commands. We welcome His coming as we live among those who disdain the heralding of His glorious arrival in less than two years!
To God be the glory, indeed. Be warned. Judgment Day is in May 2011.

Just a quick note for those interested,this from James White’s blog today concerning debate between him and Harold Camping:

Harold Camping Debate Tuesday and Wednesday!

07/27/2009 – James White

We have arranged to be able to webcast the Iron Sharpens Iron program on our regular Dividing Line link tomorrow. So here is how it will work: tomorrow starting around 10:25am or so (1:25pm EDT) we will start streaming the seminar I did on Camping’s attack upon Christ’s church back in 2002 or so. That will take us right up to noon our time, 3pm EDT, when Iron Sharpens Iron begins. Please help us take the burden off of ISI’s servers by listening to the program on the regular Dividing Line link! We will webcast both days of the debate, Tuesday and Wednesday, and then, Lord willing, I will join Chris to take calls from the audience on Thursday. If we have, in fact, worked out the problems we have had in the past with the link to WNYG, then we MIGHT be able to take calls on our regular DL line as well. We will see! Of course, we will be recording the programs and posting them as soon as possible, as we know there will be a great deal of interest in listening to this interaction.

Well has been an interesting two progams on Iron Sharpens Iron,they will have James White on tomorrow(7/30) alone for call-in Q&A -same time as debates were,3pm EDT. Harold Camping will be on Friday(7/31)alone for call-in Q&A. Again,to listen to live streaming go to http://www.wnygspiritofny.com

and to call in the number is 1-631-321-9694 (I know,not toll free,its a local program from my old “haunts” in Long Island-covers a tri-state area,NY,NJ,Conn.)

Not a problem,Augustine, like to keep people informed and in the loop. Haven’t continued our discussion so the focus could be on the debates and so posted info would be seen. Also if any wished to comment on anything relevant to them.

Hello Wade,you’ve made alot of pithy comments-several concerning “WW3” and its possibility. Though not directly relevant to the topic here,I’ll address the latter-sure it could happen,so could an asteriod strike the earth and cause mass destruction. WE don’t know the future-WE haven’t been there yet and when we do arrive it’s always today! Why be concerned,just be prepared to meet Jesus,no matter what initiates that meeting for you:)

Once again, we see vile character assassination rather than scripturally sound refutation. Interestingly enough, many said the same about Christ and were not satisfied until they had him tortured and executed. God’s truth triggers this response in man. Those to whom God reveals His truth embrace it and obey Him. The rest love the world so much, that they react to God’s truth with hate and fear as demonstrated above.

God’s truth cannot be denied, no matter what language we use, how much we curse and gnash our teeth, how much we condemn the watchmen that herald His arrival, His truth cannot be denied. 21 months remain.

I do not believe the world will end in 2011 or 2012. There are many prophecies that need to be fulfilled before the end. I do no believe we are in the final tribulatioin period yet. I do believe we are close to the end, but it will probably not be by 2012. Some believe that the Mayan Calendar predicts the end by Dec 21, 2012. This has nothing to do with the Bible. Mr Camping has predicted the end in 1994, and now predicts the end in 2011, this is also wrong. Mr Camping’s Biblical Calendar of History is wrong, so all calculations based on this are also wrong.
God Bless,
Jimjimbbbbb@gmail.com

I think Augustine is setting himself up for grave disappointment on 5/21/11 – unless the Lord has decided to ignore Harold’s numerical gymnastics and come sooner than expected. Either way, I do not see Augustine being a “happy camper” if he continues after Harold. I have really enjoyed reading the debate between Augustine and Senecus. I think Augustine and other “campers” are hopelessly locked into the Camping hypnotic trance. Unfortunately I think that includes seeing themselves as modern day Noahs. They definitely seem to have a martyr complex going on also. Or maybe it’s just as simple as they never liked getting up and going to church anyway. Now Camping gives them a convenient excuse to sleep in and feel guilt free…even heroic. Senecus, I think Matthew 7:6 might be instructive here.

Yes,agree with your scriptural reference,but it’s more for “the sake of 50….or just 45…if there be 30…”(think Lot).

Great observations on the hold Mr.Camping has on the “Campingites” and their complex. Similar to that of devotees of cult leaders-they parrot unquestioning the rhetoric they are spoon fed,even taking on at times the mannerism and speaking style of the group leader. I saw this before in 1994 ,being approached by what I only can describe as a “mini-Camping” in a parking lot handing out tracts pertaining to the “soon end” later that year.

I think this little tid-bit from John Piper to those who would attempt to predict the future sums it up nicely-“When our future perspective becomes chronological instead of theological,then faith is endangered. The more detailed one attempts to map out the future,the more inferences one must make which are not explicit in the Scripture. Therefore, the tendency of the imagination to fill the gaps increases and the probability of erroneous calculation grows.

It has been a common tactic through the ages to show select verses to support or invent any doctrine. Truth is found when we allow the Bible to harmonize its entire message by viewing all the Bible has to say and allowing the Bible to define and interpret itself as God is merciful and reveals it to us. God has written the Bible this way so that He can reveal truth to whom He chooses. It is not a matter of study tactics, interpretation methods, or historical church understanding. It is a matter of revelation from God to his servant.

Harold Camping did not “predict” the end in 1994. Actually looking at the book will reveal this in clear statements, and even in the title “1994?”, but it is easier to jump on the “group think” bandwagon than to actually conduct research, so misinformation is perpetuated. 1994 is an important year in the Biblical timeline, and the year 2011 is mentioned in that book as well as a possible end. Since that time, more information has been revealed, as spoken of in Daniel, that clarifies the end timeline.

Lee is jumping on the bandwagon and calling those of us who proclaim this warning “followers” of Harold Camping. So I ask, does that make Lee a “follower” of Senecus? Does it make a churchgoer a “follower” of his pastor or Sunday school teacher? Or do they just happen to agree? I have some points with which I disagree with Camping, but not on the overall message which is spiritually crystal clear.

If I am convicted of truth in the Bible, am I to dismiss it because a radio Bible teacher teaches it? In fact, it is encouraging to hear someone blessed with a large outreach ministry to proclaim God’s truth.

Thank you, Lee, for presenting Matthew 7:6. Indeed it is very instructive here. It is God who reveals His Holy Truth to those He has made clean, and keeps it hidden from those who remain unclean (dogs and pigs). As demonstrated on this forum, when God’s Holy Truth is presented, it is trampled and ridiculed, and those who present it are turned on and ripped, just as the verse says.

You wrote, “It is not a matter of study tactics, interpretation methods, or historical church understanding. It is a matter of revelation from God to his servant.”

But Augustine, the way we know whether someone has been revealed true doctrines is to compare their doctrines with the Word of God. Mr. Camping does not prove his doctrines with the Word of God. He twists the Bible, uses human assumptions, mathematical errors, human speculations, and presents only the Biblical data that supports his view. He is not consistent in his Biblical interpretation, and does not handle the Word of God accurately. Often he convinces his readers with evidence that is not related directly to the Bible. He claims that his doctrines are true because he spent years and years of careful research. His bragging about how long and hard he studied the doctrine is convincing, but not valid Biblical evidence.

You wrote: “Harold Camping did not “predict” the end in 1994. Actually looking at the book will reveal this in clear statements, and even in the title “1994?””

The truth is that Mr. Camping made many statements indicating certainty of 1994 and made a few statements where he hedged his bet and said that there was a small chance that he was wrong. Do not criticize those of us who rightly state that he did indeed predict 1994, even though he also wrote statements that he was not absolutely certain. The blame for this confusion should be placed on Mr. Camping who gave inconsistent statements regarding whether or not he was certain of 1994. For instance, in the conclusion of his book he wrote, “However, if this study is accurate, and I believe with all my heart that it is, there will be no extensions in time. There will be no time for second guessing. When September 6, 1994, arrives, no one else can become saved. The end has come.” (page 533). After the long book, “1994?” he wrote another long book called “Are You Ready,” giving hundreds of pages proving his 1994 prediction. Mr. Camping stated that he believed with all his heart that 1994 would be the end. Just because he admitted at times that he was not infallible does not mean that he should be given a free pass on this error.

You wrote, “Lee is jumping on the bandwagon and calling those of us who proclaim this warning “followers” of Harold Camping. So I ask, does that make Lee a “follower” of Senecus? Does it make a churchgoer a “follower” of his pastor or Sunday school teacher? Or do they just happen to agree?”

Augustine, there is a huge difference in agreeing with Harold Camping and agreeing with a pastor of a conservative Christian church. Mr. Camping is presenting new and unusual doctrines. He condemns anyone that does not believe his unusual doctrines. Most pastors are not teaching new doctrines, but defending the historical Christian faith. Many false teachers claim exclusive knowledge from God, and condemn those that do not accept their exclusive doctrines. Following such teachers is indeed often following a man, rather than following God. On the other hand, when someone agrees with a pastor, who is trying to declare the traditional and historic Christian doctrines, with no claims of exclusive special knowledge, this is usually not considered following a man.

You asked, “If I am convicted of truth in the Bible, am I to dismiss it because a radio Bible teacher teaches it?”

My answer would be that you must follow truth. But the question is whether or not Mr. Camping is really teaching the truth. The answer is that he is teaching false doctrines.

Your first paragraph is little more than a litany of character assassination statements against Harold Camping. To argue in that direction is to make it about a man, not the message of the Holy Word, so I don’t usually bark up that tree.

If you feel that Harold Camping overstated the possibilty of 1994, that’s fine. I may agree in some instances. He may have sounded unclear to some at times, and if so, then you are correct in saying his lack of clarity was his own fault.

You wrote: “There is a huge difference in agreeing with Harold Camping and agreeing with a pastor of a conservative Christian church. Mr. Camping is presenting new and unusual doctrines”. I answer, don’t you think your idea of a “conservative Christian church” has new and unusual doctrines when heard by a lifelong Buddhist who never heard the Gospel? You are thinking inside a very small box. You say there is a difference, but there is not. Why? Because God’s Holy Truth is not defined by historical church understanding. I am truly saddened for those who believe that it is.

Finally, all I can say is that no one will agree with God’s Truth unless God opens their spiritual eyes to it. We are in need of His Mercy. May we pray for it, and may He grant it.

You stated that my opening comments were nothing but character assassination. You are right that the truth does assassinate Mr. Camping’s character. He does not teach truth, and spreads false teaching throughout the world. But I don’t think I am guilty of assassinating his character. His actions are what destroy his reputation, not my comments. The question is not whether my comments reflect negatively on Mr. Camping’s character. The question is whether my comments were true. Does Mr. Camping faithfully teach the Bible, or is he teaching his own ideas? Let’s look at a recent answer he gave on the Open Forum show to find out.

Open Forum Wednesday, August 26, 2009: 49 minutes, 55 seconds

The Biblical Calendar of History is an important foundation for many of Mr. Camping’s false doctrines. Notice how Mr. Camping’s defense of the calendar is without merit. The caller specifically asked how Mr. Camping can interpret the genealogy of Genesis 5 as a calendar going all the way back to Adam. The caller wanted to know how Mr. Camping knew that a patriarch was born in the year that the previous patriarch died. Mr. Camping reiterates the flawed proof, but inaccurately.

Mr. Camping: Genesis 5, Yes. In the genealogies. Yes. What about the genealogies?

Caller: Now with the phrase “called his name”. Now when that phrase is absent in the rest of the scriptures of Genesis 5, how do we know that the next reigning patriarch was born the same….?(Mr. Camping interrupted before the question could be fully stated. The caller was asking how Mr. Camping knows that the reigning patriarch was born in the same year as the previous patriarch died).

Mr. Camping: Yes well, you know, I still remember 40 years ago working on this passage. And I spent years on it, literally years, looking at everything and anything I could find in the Bible, and praying for wisdom. How do we understand this? And then finally the Lord opened my eyes to recognize that whenever God used the clue phrase “called his name” that meant it was an immediate son. And when I tested it in various ways it always came out that way. On the other hand, when he said so and so begat so and so, that simply meant he was a “progenitor of”. And God gave illustrations in the Bible where it says “so and so begat so and so” and it was not an immediate son at all. It was a grandson or a great grandson, and so I knew that when it just said begat it was not to be understood as an immediate son. I also was aware that God gave this information for some reason. I at that time had no knowledge of Ecclesiastes chapter eight, verse 5, that God would put it in our hearts sometime to know time and judgment. That I didn’t learn about until decades later. But at the time I knew that everything in the Bible was important. It had a purpose, and what could that purpose be? And finally, by finding the rules as to how to read these verses, I was able to work out the date of creation, and the date of the flood and so on. And what was so wonderful was when a year ago or so the proofs were developed that showed that without any question we had gotten the year 4990 accurate and the year 2011 accurate and the date May 21 accurate, and so on, absolutely, absolutely accurate. And they’re all based on all this early work going all the way back to the beginning. It indicated that somehow by God’s mercy, by God’s mercy, he had guided this study through the years, through many many decades so that it came out accurately.

But thank you for calling and sharing… Oh, how did I know that the next, for example….That worked out from a passage in Exodus chapter 6 where it talked about Levi, Amram, and Kohath. And when I figured that one out it had to fill in the 430 years of the sojourn of Israel in Egypt. And it worked out exactly when I worked through that, that it would have to be that the next calendar patriarch would have to have been born in the year that the last one died. And God gave the proof there. But thank you for calling and sharing.

Notice how Mr. Camping answers the question. Does he begin with a Biblical defense? No, he begins with bragging about how much he studied and prayed for a solution. He often tells his readers not to trust him, but to trust the Bible. But his first argument for the calendar strongly implies that Mr. Camping’s conclusions are to be trusted because he spent years, literally years of diligent study and prayer seeking a solution to the Biblical Calendar. He even declares that God opened his eyes. That implies that we are obligated to trust Mr. Camping because God opened his eyes. Again, he says one thing: “Don’t trust me, trust the Bible.” But when he opens his mouth to defend his Biblical calendar his first arguments have nothing to do with the Bible. Instead, he uses all kinds of rhetoric that implies that you are safe to trust me, Harold Camping.

Notice how Mr. Camping did not let the caller finish his question. That prevents people from understanding what the discussion is about, and prevents people from understanding. They will not be able to see the fallacies of his argument because they are not permitted to even hear the question. This causes people to just trust him, rather than evaluate his response in light of the Bible for themselves.

Mr. Camping said, “and so I knew that when the Bible said begat it was not to be understood as an immediate son.” That is totally inaccurate. There were many Biblical examples of begat meaning an immediate son. Mr. Camping’s original claim was that every time the Bible didn’t reveal the relationship as immediate we could assume the relationship to be remote. This original assumption was unproven. However, this recent statement on the Open Forum is a blatant distortion of the Biblical evidence.

Mr. Camping continues with eloquent statements regarding how wonderfully Ecclesiastes 8:5 confirms his conclusion, and how proofs have been developed that we had gotten the year 4990 and 2011, “absolutely, absolutely accurate.” However, he does not explain these proofs. Again, he is encouraging his readers to simply trust Harold Camping. That is wrong.

Mr. Camping had just boasted about how many years he had studied the Bible to discover the calendar, how faithfully he had prayed for a solution to the calendar, and how wonderful his calendar was. Then to convince people that he is just a humble man he repeats twice the phrase that God had guided his study through many decades “by God’s mercy, by God’s mercy.” Notice that he has still not explained his unusual calendar proof..

Now Mr. Camping starts to go to the next caller, but he suddenly remembers he has not answered the original question.. He repeats only part of the question, so that very few people even know what the discussion is about. “Oh, how did I know that the next, for example.” Then he gives his inaccurate answer. He references Exodus 6 and names Levi, Amram, and Kohath. He fails to mention that his proof also involves the fourth patriarch: Aaron. Then he finally gives the answer to the caller’s question: “And when I figured that one out it had to fill in the 430 years of the sojourn of Israel in Egypt. And it worked out exactly when I worked through that, that it would have to be that the next calendar patriarch would have to have been born in the year that the last one died. And God gave the proof there.”

Notice that Mr. Camping states that he worked it out and that God gave the proof. He does not encourage the listener to go back to the Bible and see whether God actually did give this proof. If you do search the Bible, you will not find this information at all. It is completely based on human assumption, not Biblical fact. Here is how Mr. Camping actually arrived at his conclusion of the Biblical Calendar years ago:

Mr. Camping’s proof of the calendar was to prove that the years Levi, Kohath, Amram, and Aaron in Egypt added up to exactly 430 years. He believes that if they do add up to 430 years then we would know indeed that each patriarch was born in the year the previous patriarch died, forming a Biblical calendar, And he would conclude that the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 were also such calendars.

The problem with Mr. Camping’s proof of the calendar is that the Bible does not give us enough information to know exactly how many years Levi spent in Egypt. It simply tells us that Levi lived to be 137 years old. Mr. Camping needs to prove that Levi lived 77 years in Egypt to make his calendar work. Unfortunately, the Bible does not give enough detail to determine how old Levi was when he entered Levi. Mr. Camping falsely claims to prove that Levi lived between 74 and 77 years, in Egypt. He truthfully admits that he cannot prove that Levi lived exactly 77 years in Egypt. But he promises one more proof. That proof is to assume that the calendar is true, and conclude that Levi must have lived 77 years in Egypt. So his final proof of the calendar is to assume the calendar! That is not logical. That is deceptive. You cannot assume the calendar to prove the calendar. Mr. Camping is very clever, at convincing people. But please Augustine, check it out for yourself. His proof of the calendar is based on human assumptions, and deception.

Camping has recorded thousands of hours answering these questions. If he were to give a comprehensive answer and recite all the Biblical evidence, the program couldn’t exist because it is not formatted to use two or three programs answering one question. That is why there are separate comprehensive studies on specific subjects as references to the Bible. But you are trying to use this fact as some kind of indictment. God doesn’t open our eyes through another man’s teachings. He opens our eyes through His Word only. Camping uses his program to proclaim the Gospel message. We are to search the scriptures on our own. If we give our trust over to sinful men that run businesses called churches, that is between us and God. Accusing a messenger of being wrong because God has not opened our eyes to the message is a common failing of man. It is spoken of in Scripture when we are told that God hides His truth so that the non-elect cannot perceive it.

You make many accusations and insinuations based on this one phone call, when thousands of other calls and Camping’s writings contradict all of your accusations. I really think you know better than that, but in trying to make a point, it seems you may have exposed your true intentions.

The message of the Gospel does not begin or end with what Harold Camping says. Harold Camping is a repeater of God’s truth, not an originator of it. To those of us whom God is revealing this truth, we have no “leader” other than Christ as we know Him through the Bible. I know we are trying to be portrayed as “followers” of Camping in some kind of cult-like devotion. I sometimes think that Satan has influenced cults in the past, and has propagated the 2012 Mayan Calendar prediction, in order to distract from the warning of the real end.

Behold, the King approaches! May those who go out to meet Him be blessed. May God have mercy on those who do not.

The caller was asking for proof regarding Mr. Camping’s Calendar principle. This is the very foundation of all his sensationalistic teachings such as the End of the Church Age and the timing of the Rapture. The caller asked the most important question anyone could ask Mr. Camping. Mr. Camping should be accountable to answer the question thoroughly. After all Mr. Camping goes on and on and on offering various spiritual interpretations. Why did he just gloss over the question that hits right at the foundation? And even if he didn’t want to give a detailed answer, Mr. Camping could have stated that the proof was too complicated for the Open Forum, and that the caller should refer to his supposed proof of the calendar in his book, “Adam When?” But Mr. Camping did not do that. He tried to convince the caller without providing Biblical proof. That is wrong. And the truth is that we live in an entertainment society where people would rather listen to the shallow answers on the Open Forum than to read and analyze his speculations found in his books.

Augustine, the reason we know that Mr. Camping’s Biblical Calendar is not to be trusted is by carefully analyzing his proof of the calendar found in his book, “Adam When?” When we carefully analyze his proof of the calendar we find that he failed to prove the key to the calendar that he himself defined. The key that supposedly unlocked the previously hidden Biblical Calendar was never proven. Mr. Camping assumed his calendar to prove the key to the calendar. That is a huge problem for Mr. Camping. His teachings are just human speculations with no Biblical proof. We must demand that all doctrines have Biblical proof.

The Bible tells us that there will be wolves in sheep’s clothing seeking to devour the sheep. The Bible says that we can recognize them by their fruit. When we examine the fruit of Mr. Camping we find that he is a classic example of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He pretends to be a holy, and faithful Christian, but in reality he is doing great harm to the flock of God. I pray that he will repent and stop teaching his human speculations.

This is to reply to part of Augustine’s September 26,2009 post. At the end of your post, you reveal just how mislead you are, and also, how much of a Campingite you are. You said, “Behold the King approaches!” “May those who go out to meet Him be blessed.” “May God have mercy on those who do not.”

All of this shows just how much you and others like you are all wrapped up in Camping’s doctorinal errors. What I now understand about this closing statement you made, combined with Camping’s NEW date setting of 5/21/11 for the rapture of the church, etc., is that if someone who calls themselves a christian is NOT in agreement with Camping’s NEW date setting of 5/21/11, this would mean that such an individual is NOT saved, because if they were, they would immediately agree with this NEW DATE that Camping claims is what God the Holy Spirit revealed to HIM with all his very hard and lengthy study of God’s Word. So what this would mean is that a person’s salvation (implied by Camping) is predicated on their belief in Camping’s NEW DATE setting of 5/21/11, instead of putting their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, so what we have here is that Camping has made himself to be god with his special revelations and private intrepretation of God’s Word (which of course the bible warns about this over and over again), has set himself up as god with new directives of Faith that supercede the Lord Jesus Christ’s completed work on the Cross, and that it would be mutually inclusive according to Camping theology, that Faith in Jesus for Salvation would also mean that one would have to have faith in Camping’s NEW DATE setting of 5/21/11 to be SAVED. Therefore, Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is NOT enough according to Camping’s theology, and that if a person is a genuine believer in God’s Word, then such a person would also immediatley accept and agree with the NEW DATE of 5/21/11 that Camping is claiming will be the date of the rapture of the church, which is equated according to Camping theology as “watching and waiting” as in the parable of the ten virgins. So according to Camping, faith in his special revelation of 5/21/11 that God gave him, is therefore a REQUIREMENT FOR EVERYONE’S SALVATION ALL OVER THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD, LOL. Now, if there ever was a FALSE Prophet, with all his date setting, and changing, and modification, and adding more time, more months for what he says to come to past, and it still doesn’t come to pass, then clearly this is EXACTLY what Camping is, a FALSE PROPHET and he doesn’t even know it, because he himself is deceived. I also find it extremely interesting how the “Satan transforming himself into an angel of light, fits Camping so precisely. The Devil loves mixing lies with truth, this is nothing new, and here’s another thing about the Devil, in his own mind, he’s absolutely 100% right and correct about everything, which of course makes the Devil a definitive narcissist, which is what Camping is, a narcissit. Narcissists like the Devil, don’t understand the concept of grace, as they are ALL legalists to the heart, just like Camping. They have to be 100% about everything, and in fact, if anyone ever challenges them being 100% correct, watch out. You either 100% agree with them, or you’re toast. Keep following Camping and watch what is going to happen to you. When 5/21/11 rolls around, and the world is still here, and Camping is still on Family radio the next day on 5/22/11, he will be in big trouble, because he has openly on the radio claimed that the date of 5/21/11 is ABSOLUTELY DEFINITE, and the told one person that called in to ask him about this NEW DATE of his, that if the caller didn’t believe it, it meant that he is NOT saved, and will go into destruction with the rest of the unbelieving world. So quite naturally, on 5/22/11, Camping will then be foreced to AGAIN modify his doctrine and will likely say that the Lord recently revealed to him that the rapture is only a parable, it is not an actual event, and that all the true believers are now with Christ in Heaven in their spirit, although the person is still living on the earth, lol. Camping will find some way to make God’s time table FIT his agenda and his gospel. Again, a WORLD class and HARD CORE NARCISSIT if there ever was one. Oh, and let’s not forget that 9/1984 was also suppose to be the month that the church was to be raptured, and Camping stated openly on the radio at that time, that he was 99.99% sure that it would happen, but of course it didn’t, then he recanted and came back with that God subsequently showed him that he was suppost to add an additional 7 months, but again, it still didn’t happen. He will do EXACTLY the same thing with 5/21/11 if he’s still living and still able to broadcast all his false teaching on the Family Radio program, less than 2 years from now.

Augustine,I really don’t believe it’s “character
assassination” to critique ones teaching. This term is bandied about in many forums on this subject-used much the same way “racism” is in political discourse-to marginalise one or detract from the core of the debate. As I said some posts ago ,this IS all about Mr. Camping,and not because others are making it so,he himself is. It’s about this (his) particular “brand” of eschatology -to him- being “correct”; he is the sole repository of it. Others may mime and parrot him(Campingites),but they did not come to the conclusions he did independently.

In a nutshell,its exegesis vs. eisegesis-are we really going to “mine the scriptures” for what they say or read into them what we “believe” it should say through esoteric studies,as Mr. Camping does. You say its not about technique,yet Mr. Camping himself uses an age old one-numerology. To be brief and allow you gentlemen to carry on ,it’s no longer Sola Scriptura in Mr. Camping’s circle -it’s ( as Dr. White coined) Solus Campingus.

Augustine,
Please answer this question for us, and do not try to get around it.
When the dates in 2011 passes, will you admit Harold Camping is a false prophet, and may be wrong about other doctrines such as all Christian churches are of satan, annihilation, “hope you are saved”, etc. Please answer this question, after 2011 goes by, will you be free from these false teachings or will you accept whatever rationalizations Mr Campings comes up with, if he is still alive.

Please answer this question, will you admit Harold Camping is a false prophet on May 22, 2011? This is a yes or no question.

Here’s a summation of Camping’s core theology in a nut shell and this is only touching the surface.

#1
He and his Family Radio program, the Bible Answer Man Open Forum, is the ONLY true Gospel in the world today (which of couse implies that there was no true Gospel going out into the world until he became active in ministry within his own lifetime), and he is God’s special messenger of truth, and although he claims not to be infallable, if you don’t agree with his doctrine and all his convoluted special revelations, it means that you don’t believe the Gospel and are therefore not trusting God for your salvation, which likely means that you are not saved. (keep in mind the Mr. Camping’s theology does not allow for anyone to know with certainty if they are saved, although God’s Word declares very clearly that the Church is the Body of Christ of which He (Christ) is the head, so thefore, based on Camping theology, it is possible for the “body” to be aware of their inseperable union with the “head”,)LOL.

#2
In addition to everything in #1, an individual must agree with all of Mr. Camping’s doctorinal perspectives since he has spent so many years studying the bible and crying out to God for wisdom, which qualifies him as possessing “authoratative knowledge” which he illustrates with 100% of the callers on the Open Forum program who disagree with him, by his using the phrase, “The FACT OF THE MATTER IS”……followed by his personal revelations of whatever the topic matter is about, which comes with his also turning down the volume of the callers voice so they are not allowed to openly challenge him on the air. Camping 100% of the time, states that what he has to say about any topic on scripture or doctrinal perspectives are FACTS that God has revealed to him, and if you don’t see it, it’s because you are not trusting God and/or spending enough time studying scripture and praying for wisdom.

#3
In addition to #1 & #2, a person can not call themselves a ” true believer” in God’s Word who does not also believe Mr. Camping’s date setting for
the end of the world and rapture of the church, regardless of what date he sets, or how many times he changes it or modifies it, which he justifies by saying that God shows him better and better revelations as he’s studying and praying for wisdom.
So with each change of Camping’s date setting, a person following his teaching must realign their faith with his in order to “remain in Faith trusting God.” He was wrong of course about 9/1984 even though later he said he was not realy wrong, just (quote) “off a little tinsy bit”, and for all those who trusted him on that, now have to “update their faith” to accept his latest prediction date for the end of the world and rapture of the church, which he currently claims is 5/21/11. Unlike 9/1984, Camping VERY CLEARLY says that THIS DATE (5/21/11) IS 100% ABSOLUTE AND CERTAIN. Importantly, Mr. Camping equates that trusting God for eternal life not only means believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, but also you MUST be “watching and waiting” for His return according the the New Testament scripture verses on the Parable of the Ten Virgins”, which Camping claims has to do with a person who calls themselves a christian, agreeing with and believing his NEW DATE setting of 5/21/11, because whoever doesn’t “believe this end of thw world 100% guaranteed date from God” given through him as God’s special messenger, means that such individuals are not “watching and waiting” for Christ’s return which confirms that such individuals are not genuine christians, which means that they are destine to destruction along with the rest of the unbelieving world at the moment of the rapture.

#4
Camping’s Annihilation Theology. According to Camping, there is no eternal destruction of the wicked on Judgement Day, despite the numerous scriptures that indicate this. He claims that the wicked simply “disappear into oblivion, they cease to exist”, and that are not raised on the final day at the end of the 1,000 years post-return of Christ. He claims that all of this is figurative only. I heard Camping say on the Open Forum radio program just this past week, that when the wicked die and were never saved, God only brings their bodies out of the grave and judges their bodies in “shame”, which is their only punishment, but the actual “wicked unsaved person” who died is not aware of anything. Then after God judges the wicked unsaved person’s dead body in shame, it vanishes into thin air. He states that the scriptures in the Book of Revelation about Satan and his Angels being cast live into the Lake Of Fire, and also the “unsaved” people going there as well who’s names are not written in the book of life to be tourmented day and night, is figurative, all of it. What all of this would mean from a classical doctrinal perspective is that God is not Holy and Righetous, and that there is no reason at all to live a life of Faith in God, because if you don’t and you end up not saved, it doesn’t amount to anything. Eternal Life has an endless reward, whereas living a life as an enemy of God and dying in one’s sins with out the Lord Jesus Christ, has no equal an opposite reward unto Etnernal Loss. This happens to be one of Mr. Camping’s strangest theological positions in scriptures, all of which is allogorical in nature and devised out of his own reasoning and adding and subtracting meaning from scriptures. The bible refers to this process as “mishandling the Word of God.” and “always learning but never being able to come to the Truth.” This defines Camping in every possible way.

#5
Camping claims that Jesus is NOT begotten of God, that he was only a first son (otherwords, his origin is not Divine), and not only this, Jesus and Michael the Arch Angel are one and the same person. So here in this example, it is possible for two beings to be the same person who have two totally different purposes in God’s Kingdom. It’s like saying that the Virgin Mary and Ruth are the same person.

#6
It is not possible for anyone to know for sure if they are saved. God does not reveal that to anyone. Salvation is a mystery, and the only thing a person can do is read their bible daily, cry out to God daily for mercy, work hard daily trying to make sure you are not committing any sins, and pray day and night.

#7
Do not work on Sundays unless you are a doctor or nurse that is required to take care of sick people.

#8
No one should be attending any churches, because if they do, they are under the dominion and control of Satan operating through the pastors and members of any church (a physical building where people meet) in the world today.

#9
We are currently in the midst of the Great Tribulation where no one is being saved except on special occasions of acts of God’s Mercy. The Church age is over.

#10
Camping claims that there is no role for Israel in God’s plans. Israel was replaced by the church of God, and He (God) has no further dealing with Isreael, they are not part of God’s salvation plan anymore that any individual in the world who is lost in their sins.

#11
Camping claims that anyone who is meeting in any church building during any day of the week is under the wrath of God, and is being deceived by Satan.
Only the true believers in God’s Word have left “the church”, and should not be meeting anywhere in public as a church, only in private homes where just a couple of people meet, pray, and study God’s word.
(I believe that his unconscious motive and “revelation” for this has to do with his incredible satanic narcissism, where he does not want any “church leadership” competing with the Family Radio Bible program, because in his mind, he must rule in the world as God’s only authority and voice).

I hope this helps many of you who haven’t gotten Mr. Camping all figured out yet. Some never will. Best wishes to all and here’s my closing statement.

…and Jesus said, Have Faith in God, and in like manner, have Faith also in me, because I and the Father are One….and whosoever believes that God has raised Jesus from the dead shall be saved, and in fact, they have already crossed over from death into life….the work of faith is this (Jesus speaking) believe on the one who God has sent….lean not to your own understanding, but acknowledge the Lord and he shall direct your steps…no scripture is of private intrepretation….unless ye have Faith like one of these little children you shall not enter the Kingdom of God….

Excellent post! You hit the nail on the head. Your question put to Augustine about Camping’s 5/21/2011 is a clear cut “yes or no” question, and it deserves a simple “yes or no” answer.

Unlike Camping’s 9/1984 “Rapture of the Church-End of The World” original doctrine, he stated in his book 1984? on page 531, that it was “likely” that the world would end at that time based on his revelations from God through his diligent study, prayer, and crying out to God for wisdom and understanding. He then stated that he is 99.99% sure that it is going to happen, then changed his context a 3rd time to quote “IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.” So his self-contradictions were already apparent going into 9/84. Then when his prediction didn’t come to past in 9/84, he recanted by saying, quote “I was just a tinsy bit off in MY calculations, but it is still going to happen in 1984, and I will be surprised if we make it to 10/84.” THIS IS THE EXACT QUOTE HE MADE ON THE FAMILY RADIO OPEN FORUM PROGRAM. Of course, it didn’t happen, and now, he has an all new date of 5/21/11. The difference this time, is that Camping has very clearly stated several times (I’ve personally heard him say it at least three times on the Open Forum radio program) that this date (5/21/11), IS ABSOLUTELY DEFINITE! I heard him say this to three different callers recently on the Open Forum program who called in to ask him about this new date that he has set. In one of those discussions on the air, he told the caller that if he doesn’t accept this FACT which is recorded in God’s word in the bible through careful study, then he will NOT be “watching and waiting” as the bible warns, and will therefore not be raptured, but instead go into destruction with the rest of the unbelieving world. Camping then stated that quote, “THIS DATE (5/21/11)IS 100% CERTAIN.” I am not paraphrasing him.

Now, here’s my point regarding yours. Camping has without question put himself over the barrel on this one, because there is no more “date range” or use of his prior terminology “likely”, or the use of “?” as in his book 1984? This time around, Camping is saying 5/21/11 PERIOD, believe it, or go to your destruction.

So yes, your question to Augustine ABSOLUTELY deserves a YES OR NO response on his part (and thousands of others who listen to him), for mere fact that according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22, it only takes one (1) false prophecy to mark an individual as a false prophet. There is NO getting around this. I highly recommend you to take a look at the link I provided below on “The False Prophecies of Joseph Smith-And It Didn’t Come to Pass” by Ed Decker, because Camping is without question the EXACT same type of guy who has all kinds of special revelations he claims to have received from God which are all bundled up with a myriad of doctrinal errors.

Many people may not know this about Camping, but he suffers from a classical personality disorder known as “NPD”, or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I myself am a doctor, and I can tell you without going into lenghty details on this complex subject, that the central feature of this personality disorder is that the individual continuously contradicts themselves, even in the context of their own discussions, and often times, within the very same sentence. Two other important features of NPD is that the individual absolutely despises being challenged i.e. they MUST be 100% correct about everything, and also, they claim to have special privilages or revelations from God that no one else has. Sound familiar?

What we can all expect to happen when 5/22/11 rolls around is that Camping will predictably come up with a “new revelation from God” that he will claim that he was not previously aware of, and he likely will say that the rapture is not a literal physical event (like he does with hundreds of other scriptures), and that all true believers were raptured on 5/21/11 but only their spirit, not their bodies, and the their bodies will be rapture later at another time, and he will then extend or push back his date for the end of the world based on a new set of complex mathematical equations and calculations.

Keep in mind that all of Camping’s doctrine, has to do with what he refers to on the Open Forum program as “FACTS”, more specifically, GOD’S FACTS, so therefore if an individual does NOT accept what he says, then such individuals do not believe what Camping refers to as quote, “The Truths of God’s Word”, which makes them of course an unbeliever. This includes all of his date setting as well. So for someone to “stay in Faith with God”, who is under the spell of Mr. Camping, they must decide to continuously realign their belief to match whatever Camping says, even if it’s wrong as with his previous date setting of 9/1984 for the rapture of the church and end of the world.

No doubt, 5/22/11 should be to current Campingites, the FINAL determining factor that nails shut the issue of Camping being a False Prophet. Everyone who doesn’t already know this, will on 5/22/11, unless they continue to believe him post 5/21/11 when he begins modifying his doctrine (i.e. his quote, “The Truths of God’s Word”), and date setting again, like he already has in the past.

Hey Ron K.
Just to correct something… Mr Camping previously predicted that the world would end in sept 1994 not 1984 as you keep reapeating. I was involved with people who were 100% convinced that the world would end in 1994, and when I disagreed with them, I was condemned to Hell by them. End though Mr Camping said he was 99.9% sure, and had a question mark after 1994 on his book. Thousands of his followers were 100% convinced the world would end. One person in New Jersey committed suicide leading up to 1994, because of the fear Harold Camping puts in people, about the end of the world, and lack of assurance of salvation. Harold Camping is a very dangerous cult leader, a false prophet, and a false teacher who now teaches the heresy of annhilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, after decades of teaching extreme Hell and Damnation and previously condemning the churches of not teaching enough Hell.

So Augustine and any other person reading this who agrees with Harold Camping……

Please answer this question.. When May 22, 2011 arrives will you agree the Harold Camping is a false prophet and false teacher? Or will you accept any rationalizations he comes up with, if he is still alive? If you still listen and agree with any of his heresies on May 22, 2011, you are proving to yourself that you are following a man and not Christ.

We are all here trying to help any Family Radio listeners, we are not attacking any one, or arguing for no reason. Just as Harold thinks it is correct to warn everyone that all churches are of satan, we know it is correct to warn people not to follow any of Harold Camping’s heresies.

Here’s the problem regarding Mr. Camping. Just as
Mr. James White has﻿ outlined, Camping utilizes allogorical intrepretation as a method of examining scriptures. Through this process, he creates a new foundation of understand (i.e. “Camping’s more precise revelations”), that supercedes & replaces the intended meaning of scriptures in their presented context, which then gets transformed into a new standard of doctrine, i.e. Camping’s doctorine. This is EXACTLY how cults get started. Jim Jones for example. Here’s an illustration: Camping states that the “church age is over”, “God is finished with the church”, and that “all true believers should leave the church.” But wait a minute, according to the bible, the church is composed of people on earth
who have placed their faith & trust in Jesus Christ, received Him as Lord & Savior, and have confessed him openly as the Son of God, risen from the dead for the redeption of their sins. Then subsequently, the Holy Spirit came to indwells each and every believer who has received Jesus Christ, and therefore, the “Body of Christ” is composed of all human beings that have the Holy Spirit living inside of them. So now, if God the Holy Spirit has “left the church” according to Mr. Camping, where did He go? Camping says that the Holy Spirit is “outside the church”, which would imply that He departed from inside the bodies of
each and every believer in Jesus Christ, which collectively would mean that the Holy Spirit left His permanent residence inside the corporate Body of Christ, of which Jesus Christ is the Head. So, the reality of Mr. Camping’s personal perspective on this subject is that IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST TO BE SEPERATED FROM GOD WHO DWELLS INSIDE EVERY BELIEVER. However God’s Word very clearly declairs that NOTHING will ever be able to seperate a believer from the Love of God Rom 8:38-39, and that Love is WITHIN, NOT WITHOUT or OUTSIDE, NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE. Camping is going to pay for this type of teaching in the future if he does not repent. Only the Devil would be interested in such a perspective or suggestion. On another note, come to find out, that according to Mr. Camping, there are TWO (2) bodies of Christ (churches), the visible Body of Christ (i.e. visible church) on earth composed of BOTH believers and unbelievers, and the invisible Body of Christ (invisible church), which lives in Heaven that is composed ONLY of all true believers. Now what we have here in all of this allorgical intreperative garbage of Mr. Camping’s is nothing short of someone who is either not being honest with themselves and God, or they are under some sort of incredible delusional force. I’ll leave it at that. Remember, with allorgical intrepretation, a person can make scriptures confirm and validate any point they wish to make, so that their view is the ONLY CORRECT one, even if it doesn’t make any common sense. So as I was previously discussing, if the Holy Spirit has left the church, where did he go? Mr. Camping is yet to explain where God the Holy Spirit went when He “left the church” (Body of Christ). He also implies in an illogical insance manner that all true believers should “leave the church”, but yet according to him, all true believers are in heaven and are part of the invisible church, so this means that there can’t be any true believers on anywhere on earth according to Mr. Camping, so why would they need to “leave the church?” What we have here is a world class NARCISSIST who by core definition, absolutely contradicts himself in every possible way, and in an attempt to overcome his contradictions, he must create “FACTS” that don’t exist, and those “FACTS” can be completely opposed in logic and all known historical evidence. That is the hallmark feature of all pathological narcissists. If any of you want to obtain more insight into what Mr. Camping’s real problem is, you need to do an internet study on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. What you will find is that the description fits him in every possible way. Try Google.

Jim, you know that I won’t mock God by entertaining the idea that the Bible is wrong. Neither will I ask you what you would do if the Day of Judgment begins on 5/21/2011 and you are left. I will not entertain regarding God’s Word as a “maybe” or “what if” game. The fact that you and others are tempting me to do so, even demanding that I do so, is very revealing. Tell me, what value is my “yes or no” answer to you? What value is it to the Gospel message?

Marc, you said Camping should have referred the caller to his book “Adam When” for the details. I agree. He does so all the time. Are you saying that even though he refers hundreds of callers to the proper information, he was being deliberately deceptive with this particular caller? Why this one? All one has to do is listen to hundreds of previously recorded calls. The program is free-style and Camping doesn’t follow a script. You are playing semantics to prove something that is disproved by hundreds of recorded calls and several books.

Ron, Camping’s use of “99.99 percent sure” concerning 1994 was not a mathematical statistic. It was a figure of speech. Just as people say they are “certain” of this or that when it is just an emotional figure of speech. Camping never produced any statistics that equaled to 99.99 percent certainty. Camping is a man infected by sin and imperfection like anyone else. His emotional appeal then is being exploited now. But he made that error in judgment on his own. I don’t see how anyone can use Harold Camping as an excuse not to believe the Bible. Also, although many of your points in your numbered list are filled with falsehoods, your “#9” is demonstrably untrue. Camping teaches as the Bible teaches that in these last days of tribulation, more people than ever are being saved. You claim he teaches opposite. Either you are speaking at length about something you are misinformed about, or you are being deceptive.

Senecus, I agree that it is not character assassination to criticize someone’s teachings. I’m referring to all of the accusations and insinuations about Camping’s intentions and psychological health based on a “disagreement” with him. These personal attacks and characterizations are made to distract from the sounding of the warning. I submit that it is not “disagreement” that we see here, but an attempt to discredit and silence the truth.

Camping’s books are not divinely inspired. They are a product of his own human efforts to proclaim the Gospel. As president of a worldwide ministry, he is proclaiming the truth of the Bible as he has for 50 years, and churches and other ministries worldwide have showered him with accolades for decades. No one accused Camping of being narcissistic, arrogant, unstable, etc until their pockets became threatened. A den of thieves, indeed.

The point of us proclaiming this message is not to convince anyone of its truth. I, nor Camping, nor any true believer can do that. The point of proclaiming this message is to obey God by sounding the warning. God will do what He wishes with our efforts.
Criticism, insults, insinuations, accusations, etc, concerning our mentality and psychological fitness, our moral character, etc, are all methods not meant to open a dialog and debate, but rather meant to silence the opposition through intimidation. The commands and promises of God carry more weight with us than the efforts of men to keep us from sounding the warning. The Bible clearly tells us to expect this reaction. Those whose eyes He has not opened, they will continue to use personal attacks and attempt to discredit bearers of His Truth while defending the beloved yet fallen world of men. They have their reward. They get to live in the world that they love, and perish with the world that they love. (Live by the sword, die by the sword).

This warning is not about Camping. God is not a respecter of persons. But my friends here insist on making it about Camping. So my future posts, if any, will be brief since you will all likely counter-post with more characterizations of Camping, and by proxy, myself and hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of my family members in Christ worldwide.

“And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” Daniel 12:9-10

Augustine. Thanks for your reply to my post (and others here). First, I never stated that Mr. Camping produced any “statistics” equal to 99.99% certainty of his 1994 rapture-end of the world prediction. Where did you read that??? It was a statement that Mr. Camping did make both on the air and in one of his books, and later said that quote “it is going to happen” again, regarding his 1994 prediction date. After it did NOT happen, he then stated on the air on the Open Forum that he was just a “tinsy bit off in his calculations”, and that “he would be surprised if we made it to Oct 1994.” All of this has to do with Mr. Camping trying to be God, or trying to get God to fit into his time tables that he manufactured through all kinds of elaborate numerological equations and calculations that NO ONE understands but himself. Would a 5 year old child understand this kind of thing to be saved? His attempt to do this in and of itself, shows very cleary who he is. You also mentioned regarding my #9 point in one of my posts, where I quoted Mr. Camping saying, “We are currently in the midst of the Great Tribulation where no one is being save except on special occasions of acts of God’s Mercy.” Listen, this is EXACTLY what I have previously heard Mr. Camping say on the Open Forum program on several occasions, in fact, he said it again today in a slightly different manner on the Open Forum when a called asked a question regarding Mr. Camping’s position that the world is presently in the midst of the Great Tribulation. Today (10/2/09), I heard Mr. Camping say in regard to this, that quote “there is still opportunity for people to be saved presently during the Great Tribulation period that we are NOW in, but it is of course taking place outside of the church on some occasions, since the church is under the control and authority of Satan.” What you are not realizing about Mr. Camping is that he continuously CONTRADICTS HIMSELF, which is a blaring symptom of his narcissism. Another blaring symptom of his narcissism is that he NEEDS to be 100% correct about everything although he denies this by saying that he’s quote, “always open to receiving input and understanding from others who show him otherwise from the bible IF he’s not teaching truth.” Mr. Camping would NEVER admit to something like that, so this kind of statement is a contradiction too. He also stated today on the Open Forum that quote, “the pastors in ALL the churchs in the world for over 100 years have been WRONG by teaching that the Great Tribulation comes after the Rapture.” I recommend you take a look at the following link on this link on this topic because it reveals a lot about Mr. Camping’s overall personality & delusions: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html. What you’ll find on the first page of this study on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is that the PRIMARY symptom is ONGOING SELF-CONTRADICTIONS. This is Mr. Camping’s language in a nut shell. So due to his on-going contradictions, and there are many, he is always in the process of modifying or redefining what he says, just like with his prediction of 1994? You previously stated to Jim that Mr. Camping was not predicting 1994, and there was no certainty on his part of that date. Yes, that was initially one position of his, then he modified it to quote “I’m sure it’s going to happen”, then to quote, “I’ll be surprised if we make it to Oct 1994”, then he modified it again to, quote “it is going to happen before the end of 1994”, then he modified it again to quote, “God showed me my error, and that I just needed to add 7 more months to MY 9/94 calculation”, then of course, 7 months later, it still did not happen. So may be you didn’t actually hear or see print where Mr. Camping made these statements, but the truth is, that he absolutely did, and he’s never gotten over it, which brings us now to his current 5/21/11 date setting, which he is now stating without any uncertainty going in the door, that this date is quote “ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT AND RELIABLE.” You are aware of this new position of his, aren’t you? What you’re going to see predictably, is that when 5/22/11 arrives, he will again start modifying his doctrine and date setting so that he won’t have to cope with being WRONG again. His narcissism simply can’t take it. So when 5/22/09 rolls around, and we’re all still here, what is going to be YOUR thinking about Mr. Camping?…and where will that leave you and thousands of others? What everyone needs to do, is have child like Faith like Jesus himself gives an example of in scripture, and simply believe on the the One whom God hath send (speaking of Himself), which according to Jesus himself, “this is the work of God.” Camping is a diversion, he is a tool of “hath God really said?” In closing, you’re right in that none of this has to do with “Camping.” Yes, I agree. It has to do with putting one’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE not, Jesus Christ + looking for a specific date of his return, or some other contrived requirement for salvation. If anyone Loves this World like you say, none of this discussion means anything. Do YOU LOVE THIS WORLD?? I don’t, and I also don’t think others here do either. Your closing context of comments are highly misleading because it implies that one, Mr. Camping is the Lone Ranger “the revelator of the end times”, he’s the only one who sees God’s plans unfolding for the end times and he has brought these revelations to the world”, lol. The other scriptures versus you quoted, means that one needs to also “believe Mr. Camping’s date settings”, well, if that’s what you’re implying, it is you who is deceived. The ONLY way any person can ever be “purified”, “made white”, and “tried” is by the work of the Holy Spirits, through Faith in Jesus Christ alone, and that an individual’s faith is directed by God until the day of their final redemption. None of this has anything to do with somone trusting in Mr. Camping’s “revelations” and his historical false alarm date settings, and you’re going to see that it is you and possibly millions of others who have been lead astray by Mr. Camping when 5/22/11 comes. You can write this down and paste it to your refrigerator door. Let everyone who has hope, put not their hope in any man, but put their hope and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, who shead is blood for the redemption of all those who call upon His name. Let no other message, date setting, or other things deceive you. Know this, the only WARNING anyone needs in God’s Word, is that there is NO other name under Heaven than a man can be saved, except through Jesus Christ, and also, “Jesus saying, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and None come to me except the Father draws him neigh.” “The path to destruction is wide, but the path to Eternal Life is narrow, and there are few who find it.” Gee, I didn’t recall Jesus saying anything about looking for an EXACT day, in fact, he said the opposite, “no man knows the day nor hour of his return, except my Father in Heaven. (yeah, I know, but………) LOL. Everyone, keep faith alone in Jesus Christ, NOTHING ELSE. The bible says, “the Work of God is this, believe on the One whom God has sent.” Anyone who has received Jesus Christ AS LORD AND SAVIOR and has the Holy Spirit living inside of them SHOULD BE LIVING IN EXPECTATION OF THE IMMINENT RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST AT ANY SECOND, AND THAT IS THE WAY ANY CHRISTIAN SHOULD BE LIVING THEIR LIFE WHICH IS WHAT THE PARABLE OF THE 10 VIRGINS IS ALL ABOUT, PERIOD! The only ALARM that needs to be sounded is that of false teachers, which is what the bible says needs to be done, and there are many scriptures on this as well.

Here is a brief summary of some of the diagnostic features (personality traits) of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) that very definitely defines Mr. Camping and his brand of doctrine. This is not meant as an attack on Mr. Camping, because it’s not. However it is an objective fact and if anyone is paying attention even to a slight degree to his overall persona, and/or trying to arrive at how he comes up with all his off-base doctrine that’s all out of context and based mostly on his use of numerology, elaborate mathematical calculations, allogorical applications, and contrived time tables for events for date setting, etc., then you’ll begin seeing what’s going on with Mr. Camping.

Keep in mind that Mr. Camping openly states that ALL the Churches are APOSTATE….ALL OF THEM. In this, he implies that his Radio Ministry, the Open Forum, is the ONLY true gospel in the world over the past 40 years or more, especially since 1988 when he claims that the Great Tribulation began and Satan was appointed the head of all the churches ruling over them, which Camping claims is God judging the church for their apostasy.

I say this with compassion because I have been on both sides of this to a degree. When you are deceived, you don’t realize it, you think you have the ultimate truth, and you think you are being persecuted, or Mr Camping is being character assasinated. I used to think all churches were apostate, and without realizing it, I thought that holding to certain doctrines were the way to salvation. The fact is, it does not matter if the world ends in 2011 or not, and it does not matter if we believe it or not. Like we keep saying, the Bible is very clear we are always to be ready to die, or for Christ to return at any moment. Augustine: There is no one here that will convince you about anything, there was no one that could convince me I was wrong when I was deceived. Please remember this, in a few years, 2011 will pass and Mr Camping will pass on. When this happens, remember that God stil exists, and do not give up on the faith, and be open to the truth of God’s love, and the simple Gospel of Christ. It will take a while for you to get over all of the errors that you have been taught.
God Bless,
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Thank you. I say this with compassion as well. I know you think there are similarities, even parallels between your past and my present. But remember, I never joined a separatist commune devoted to Camping’s teachings. That would be contrary to God’s Word and against Camping’s advice. And if Camping actually asked me to, I would not. I don’t follow Camping. You make it clear that you did, at one time, put Harold Camping before the Bible. I am not calling you out on that sin, rather, trying to show you that your past choices do not apply to the way I think or believe.

You said “When you are deceived, you don’t realize it, you think you have the ultimate truth…” By your definition, all of us Christians, including you, are deceived. Christ said, “I am the truth, the way, and the life…” Don’t you believe this? You don’t think you have the ultimate truth? Are we then all deceived? Or do you just think the ultimate truth is based on consensus? Christ certainly didn’t have the prevailing consensus of His day.

I don’t agree with Camping on all the details. We do agree on 5/21/11. There are some truths God graciously allowed me and others to see before Camping taught them. You say there is no difference if we know the timing of the end or not. Perhaps, but God shows that He does reveal timing as He did with Moses, Pharoah, Noah, Jonah, Lot, etc. And He tells us that believers will know the timing of the end. “But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day shall overtake you as a thief…”. “But a wise man diserneth both time and judgment”. And many others. The only reason we have so far for God’s telling us the timing of the end is so that we may obey the command to sound the warning when we see Him coming. God will do what He pleases with our efforts.

Ron, what I was saying is that you are using Camping’s use of the phrase “99.99 percent sure” as some kind of indictment when it was just a figure of speech and not tied to Biblical information.

No one was questioning Camping’s personality, credibility, or mental health when they were thanking God for his programming for the last 50 years. As soon as the message began to threaten their pockets, we saw where their treasure and their heart is.

I started reading the comments regarding Mr. Camping. The real question is if we call ourselves followers of Jesus, how should the world see that light. In reading Matthew 7-9, the heart of what Jesus taught the people is outlined clearly. Try to ask anyone who uses Mr. Camping as their guide to truth to talk about love and you will smack into a brick wall. The disciples who lived with Jesus, wrote about that consistently in their letters. Arguing about what he teaches is fruitless. If we believe that he is not bearing fruit for God, then let’s talk about the things that bear fruit for God.

Hello again all,a lot of good dialog I see. Ron,I’ve heard Mr. Camping relate the same in recent weeks to other callers also that-“…this is definitely going to happen;….this is it,this is the time….” concerning 5/21/11. He’s left himself no “wiggle room” this time,painted himself into the proverbial corner.
Jim,you’re correct about self-deception,I’ve seen the same behaviour in dealing with those involved in “pseudo-christain” cults,particularly Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Welcome Ruth Ann,I agree with you on point-as I related in posts earlier,Jesus is conspicuous by His absence from most Campingite dialog-it’s more “Solus Campingus” then Thus saith the Lord. But I also still feel teachings must be critiqued,for its how one utilises the Word-to redefine terminology-that many times leads those not well grounded astray,even to the formation of cults.
Hello again Augustine,you’ve mentioned several times “ministries pockets being threatened” by Mr. Camping’s message. It’s somewhat of a straw man.Sure,many ministries took advantage of Family Radio’s free air time,and some prospered more because of it. Most of the ministries though,were already known and thriving,whether regionally or nationally,when they went on air, Family Radio didn’t “make them” so to speak. And they continued to thrive when they left Family radio-either by being asked to (because they wouldn’t allow editing of references to “church” due to the depart out “doctrine”)or on their own for not wanting to be seen as endorsing Mr. Campings “new teachings”. It’s a two sided coin -it could be said Family Radio gained a lot more listenership( and by extension more potential donors) due to many popular ministries airing that believers wanted to hear in areas only Family Radio reached(credit here to FR’s network and Mr. Camping’s business savvy). So you could say the relationship was symbiotic.Just wanted to lay that out for the record. Carry on……

No one here is attemping to “indict” Mr. Camping. He does a good job of that all on his own with all his twisted doctrine. Also, this message board is all about point of views and opinions, nothing more, nothing less. You try to make it sound like some of us here members of a self-appointed tribunal. Also, if you or anyone else here wants to believe in Camping’s 5/21/11 rapture-end of the world prediction, MORE POWER TO YA!

Personally, I believe in the blood sacrafice and eternal redemption of the Lord Jesus Christ (plus nothing else) by faith, where the scriptures that state, quote (Jesus Speaking)- “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath Everlasting Life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto Life.”
KJV. It’s truly amazing the significant difference between man’s religosity and his attempt to be like God vs. God’s Eternal Kingdom based on Faith alone.

Has anyone read War of the Jews by Josephus? I know that a favorite line by people listening to Harold Camping is peace and safety. It is interesting to read what the jewish leaders were telling the people before the destruction of Jerusalem. They were not listening to what Jesus taught. They said we are the chosen and God will save us. We are told not to be anxious about tomorrow. Date setting plays into people’s anxieties. When we are judged, Harold Camping will not be there to explain his timeline to Jesus for us. We will all be judged by the choices that we made. History is a good teacher. When Mr. Camping no longer has his eyes on Jesus but talks only about his timeline and all the dissecting of words that explaines his doctrine, his heart is revealed. Jesus told us plainly about His kingdom. He calls, we follow. Mr. Camping has also made a call, who will follow?

Mr. Camping excels at self-contradiction, this is fact NOT criticism, and also, it’s the core feature of his narcissism. For example, he recently explained to someone on the Open Forum radio program this week who called in to ask about the end of the world culminating in the first and second resurrection being seperated by the 1,000 years according to the Book of Revelation states, quote, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, but the rest of the dead lived not again until the THOUSAND YEARS were finished. This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power over them, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” Rev 20:4-6 Now, the caller wanted to know when this 1,000 year period of time would begin since Camping is prediction the end of the Rapture on 5/21/11. Now get this, Camping told the caller, quote, “the thousand year period you’re refering to in the Book of Revelation IS NOT A LITERAL thousand years, and also, when the rapture occurs on 5/21/11, all will be raised from the dead, the saved (both living and dead) will go to heaven, and the wicked dead will be immediately judged by God and “put-out” on the ground in shame.” Then Camping said, quote “God says in scripture that a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day, so that scripture in the Book of Revelation is NOT referring to a literal thousand year period.” But yet, Camping states that from the time of Noah to 5/21/11 is EXACTLY a 7,000 years, and prove his “FACTUAL REVELATION FROM GOD” that when God told Noah and his family to enter the Arch, that they had 7-days before God would bring the flood. He then stated that because it was 7-days before the flood came in Noah’s day, and since that was true, the correct calculation for the end of the world is 1,000 years for each day in the example God gave when he told Noah the flood was coming in 7-days just before he entered the Arch. So, what we have here is Camping VERY CLEARLY making a literal application of 1,000 years for each of the 7-days before the flood in Noah’s day, then comparing it to be EXACTLY 7,000 year from that the day Noah and his family entered the Arch and the flood waters came upon the world, to time his prediction of the end of the world in 5/21/11, and also, backing it up with his application of numerological and allogorical intrepretation that “7” is the number for God’s completion. Therefore, Camping’s “proof” is self-justified to fit his DATE SETTING, and of course this is a self-contradiction in comparative application. DOES ANYONE GET IT NOW? Remember, self-contradiction is a hallmark feature of a narcissist, and also, all narcissist NEED TO BE 100% CORRECT ABOUT EVERYTHING, THEY ARE ALWAYS RIGHT, AND EVERYONE ELSE IS ALWAYS WRONG!

Read the latter rain board on yahoo. They all have the answers because they did an exhaustive study. They will argue until someone steps in and tells them the company line to tow. What drama, better than Friday night at the fights.

Excellent post, as always. Yes, you are quite correct, Mr. Camping will definitely have an out when his date “end of the world-rapture of the church” date of 5/21/11 fails. He would never survive being WRONG due to his narcissistic personality. He will say just like you suggested, i.e. “there is more we can learn from the Bible”, or, he will likely say “God showed me better revelations than I was previously aware of, and I now understand that the rapture of the church is a “parable”, or he will say that it is “invisible”, or he will say that “only a saved person’s spirit is raptured and their physical body will follow later”, 5 months later to be exact, lol. The only problem here however is that he has made all kinds of other predictions about the world on 5/21/11 being thrown into terrible events with dead bodies thrown out of their graves all over the world, and that death will be everywhere, anyone still here will be over taken by all of these events. He has really put himself out there on his ABSOLUTE prediction about 5/21/11. He is no longer using “?” which this one.

Tonight on the Open Forum Radio Program, a caller asked Mr. Camping that if a person does NOT believe the date of 5/21/11 he claims as the Rapture with the Return of Christ, does that mean such an individual is UNSAVED? Now watch this. Mr. Camping side stepped this direct question, and it deserved a simple YES OR NO ANSWER. Instead, Mr. Camping immediately diverted to a lengthy run-on discussion of the biblical account of Noah building the Arch for 120 years and preaching the gospel to everyone in the land in his day, and that ALL of the people in the land in Noah’s day DID NOT believe that destruction was coming right up to the time that Noah and his family entered the Arch and the flood came upon the world destroying everyone alive, except Noah and his family. Mr. Camping continued in this discussion for nearly 5 to 8 minutes giving all the elaborate details and double emphasis that quote, “NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE BELIEVED GOD’S MESSAGE THROUGH NOAH THAT DESTRUCTION WAS COMING, SO THEREFORE EVRYONE WAS DOOMED RIGHT UP TO THE VERY END AND THEY ALL PERISHED EXCEPT NOAH AND HIS FAMILY.” He then took his lengthy discussion, and transferred it’s context to the current time, and said that it will be the same on 5/21/11, when everyone has been warned over and over again via the Open Forum Radio program, and this information is also in their bibles, so no one is with excuse for not knowing that imminent doom is coming soon, so, if anyone does not believe God’s date of 5/21/11, then it means that they also do NOT believe the Bible, and with that, the only possible conclusion is that such individuals are not saved because they do not believe the bible. NOW, HERE’S MY POINT. I could not help to notice that in all this lengthy discussion by Mr. Camping that he NEVER ONCE mentioned Faith in Jesus Christ being the only source of anyone’s salvation and security. So what he is very definitely implying is that if someone does NOT believe his announcement of the Rapture and warning of the End of the World coming on 5/21/11, which he claims comes directly from the bible, and is God’s Word of Truth, then it means that any such individual is NOT SAVED and will be destroyed on that day. Therefore, according to Mr. Camping, a person’s salvation is exclusive tied to his date setting of 5/21/11, NOT the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, WHICH OF COURSE IS A DIRECT CONTRADICTION AND BASTARDIZATION OF NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES. Remember these scriptures:

1. And anyone who calls upon the NAME OF THE LORD, shall be saved. Joel 2:32

2. Apostle Paul speaking by Faith, quote “We believe that it is through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that WE ARE SAVED.” Acts 15:11 Notice the tense and usage of “we are saved”, meaning we are NOW saved (past tense).

3. The Word is near you, it is IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART, that is the Word of Faith we are proclaiming, that if YOU CONFESS with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved, for it is with your heart that you believe and are JUSTIFIED, and it is with your mouth that you confess and ARE SAVED. Rom 10:8-10

4. Eph 2: 8-9: For it is by Grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED (past tense), through Faith and this is NOT OF YOURSELF (including looking for Mr. Camping’s 5/21/11 new date for the world to end to come), so that NO ONE CAN BOAST. “Boasting” is EXACTLY what Mr. Camping is doing with all his date settings, modifications, and revisions which he has been doing since 1988.

5. Jesus Speaking: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him (God the Father)who sent Me, HAS Eternal Life, and DOES NOT come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into Life. John 5:24.

Notice the PAST TENSE application for salvation at the point of immediately after belief in Jesus Christ, resulting in Eternal Life, based on the above scripture quote coming from directly from Jesus Himself. Notice how Jesus did NOT say anything in this scripture or other scriptures for that fact, about the requirement for salvation, escape from destruction, and eternal life, having anything to do with looking to, or putting one’s faith in any specific date in the future, or anything else, except the revelation of Him being sent from God the Father and putting one’s faith in HIS Words alone. This last scripture (#5) in particular with Jesus Himself speaking, blaringly DISPROVES Mr. Camping’s claim that if someone does not believe his date setting of 5/21/11 as “Bible Truth” for the Rapture of the Church and destruction of the world, means that such individuals are NOT believers and are therfore NOT saved. This in and of itself should very clearly show everyone who Mr. Camping is. Mr. Camping DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF regarding the requirement of being saved and gaining eternal life. Of course, Mr. Camping would say that this scripture is a parable and it is not literal, only his 5/21/11 date is literal, nothing else. LOL.

Now, here’s one more thing, within a couple of calls later on the Open Forum tonight, another caller asked Mr. Camping about the scriptures dealing with someone’s “safety being in Jesus Christ”, and Mr. Camping agreed that a person is safe only in Jesus Christ, thereby contradicting his previous statement about a person NOT being saved if they do not believe that 5/21/11 is bible truth for the date of the rapture and end of the world.

Remember, the core feature of a narcissist is their self-contradiction.

Have Faith ONLY in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and His completed Work of the cross for the redemption of sins, nothing else.

I struggle with brushing off the dust of our feet with wishing that they would see the truth. What was the reason that Jesus told his disciples to brush off the dust? I sometimes feel that maybe I am consuming myself with someone who will never hear while there are many in the world that need to be shown love. People who use Mr. Camping as their guide spurn love. Somehow they equate love with sin. For all their talk of a “no works” salvation, works are the only thing that will bring acceptance. Proclaim a date, don’t go to church, listen to Family Radio, read Mr. Camping’s books. Maybe we play into their hand by giving them attention that they do not deserve. The media has given Mr. Camping absolutely no attention this time, much to his consternation. It is a struggle for me. It is hard to watch them harden their hearts more each day to God’s message. I understand how Paul felt. I would give my life if it would mean saving them. On the other hand, there are many people in the world that crave the love that they refuse. I guess that I will soon be brushing the dust off my feet.

Yes, Ruth Ann, once again, another excellent point! Love is key here, God’s Love, and not once have I ever heard Mr. Camping mention God’s love to any of his listners (I could be wrong), but I have heard Mr. Camping’s radio program talks for YEARS, hundreds of times, and have never heard him discuss the John 3:16 message of God’s Love, nor have I ever heard him say that one must put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. In regard to his 5/21/11 end of the world waring, I have also never heard him say to his listners that they should be placing their faith in the Jesus Christ to be saved coupled with his date setting. I have heard him however say over, and over the very things that you’ve mentioned, especially that everyone should be listening to Family Radio. The reason why Love is never mentioned by Mr. Camping is extremely suspicious. His “ministry” is truly a WORKS solution to his brand of salvation, but keep in mind that he also says that it’s NOT possible for anyone to know if they are saved or not, which of couse is another one of his narcissistic self-contraditions, especially since he very cleary states that if someone does not believe in his 5/21/11 date then it means that they are NOT saved, lol. Mr. Camping needs to put away his calculator, slide-rule, and calandars, and let the Love of God in the form of the Holy Spirit come into and take up residence in his heart. Until then, you will never hear him talk about, and make the Love of God central to his message.

Ruth Ann,
Good catch in the preface of the book about Mr Camping leaving himself an out from 2011.

Concerning whether we should be consumed with refuting Camping and his listeners, that is a great question I also struggle with. Since I believed a lot of what Mr Camping taught in the past, and was misled, I feel obligated to try to help others. But the hardcore followers will not be convinced otherwise. Sometimes I am on these blog sites constantly, other times I take a few months away from it, because I can not handle it anymore, it reminds me of my nightmare past.

Also think of this!! Mr. Camping will say that if you do not believe in May 11, 2011, then you are unsaved. Then logically can we say the reverse is true???? If you believe in 2011, and it is false, then you are unsaved, and a false prophet??? Of course after these dates will pass, Mr Camping will say that he wasn’t 100% sure, and there is still a lot to learn as Ruth Ann found in his book, even though now he is saying it is an absolute fact.

Hopefully it will all end after 2011, but if Mr Camping is still around, but you never know. He changed his stance from eternal Hell to annihilation, and many people went with him.

Mr Camping has done a lot of good in the past, and his station has brought many to Christ, including myself, but now sadly we must warn others not to follow his very destructive teachings.

Jim,
I would love to know what made you see the light? Was it God working in you or was it by using someone else to show you His light? That is why I struggle. Do I think that I will made a difference? Do I need to walk away and allow God to work in their lives? I have been talking to 2 Camping followers (who of course say they don’t follow any man) and sometimes I feel their heart opening just a crack to see the light, but just as quickly it shuts again. The interesting thing is that they keep writing back even when I say things that they can’t stand to hear. Is it important to walk beside them, to show them that even when Camping casts them off, someone will be there to put an arm around them? I hope that you can give me some insight. I want to build a relationship with them so they can see what it really means to care about someone. They have all lost the ability to relate with anyone on a heart level. It is so sad.

In my case, no one from the outside could help. I was involved with a group of people that were extreme Campingites, and believed the world would end in 1994 according to Mr Camping’s previous predictions. The end of the world dates is something that I never agreed with from the beginning, but I thought the churhces were apostate and other things Mr Camping taught. In my case, no one from the outside could get through to me, but after God opened my eyes, then I agreed with what they were trying to tell me. I hope after 2011, that many will see that we were trying to help and love them, and they can brake free from all of the heresies of Camping. Hopefully also God will take Mr Camping soon, and the dates will pass, and this will free a lot of people from his spell.
God Bless,
Jimjimbbbbb@gmail.com

Has anyone ever read “The Cost of Discipleship” by Dietrich Bonhoeffer? He talks at length about the disciple and unbelievers. If anyone is interested in reading it, I might be able to email it to you. It is too long to post here. I read this a few weeks ago and wasn’t sure how I felt about it. After hearing Jim’s story, I reread the chapter. Jim confirms what Bonhoeffer said.

Mr. Camping said the following tonight on the Family Radio Open Forum Program:

1. anyone who is attending any church anywhere in the world is worshipping Satan.

2. God’s true name in the “original bible” is Allah, which can be found in the books of Daniel and Ezra.

3. The Bible DOES NOT command or encourage church gatherings, fellowships, or attendances.

4. God saves people today seperate from the church, becasue the church is under the authority of Satan which is ordained by God. This is in the bible if you read carefully and allow the bible to be its own dictionary.

5. Just because someone decides they want to become “saved” and reads various scripture verses from the Bible that seem to indicate that all one has to do is simply “believe” on the Jesus Christ, and/or confess Him as Lord and Saviour, does NOT at all mean that they are saved. This was a teaching from the organized now apostate churches for decades, and the fact of the matter is that anyone who says or claims that they have confessed Jesus as Lord, or says that they believe that Jesus is their Savior SHOWS that such a person is NOT saved. The fact of the matter is that no one can truly know if they are saved, because salvation is a mystery of God, so therefore all anyone can do hope to do is cry out for God’s mercy day and night, and demostrated an intense desire to study the Bible, and then MAY BE, JUST MAY BE, MAY BE, God might decide to save them.

6. Only about 3% of the world’s population will actually ever become saved.

7. Family Radio’s purpose is to give light and hope to the world, and we will continue to do this right up to 5/21/11 when God’s salvation plan comes to an end. After 5/21/11, the world only has 5 months left, then God will destroy the world by fire along with all the unsaved.

8. On 5/21/11, there is going to be a tremendous earth quake and all the graves throughout the world will be opened by God, then millions, upon millions of dead bodies will be spueed out on the ground all over the world in shame, there will be dead bodies of people who even lived thousands of years ago, and God will put all their bodies out onto the ground in shame for all to see, they (the unsaved dead) themselves will not know this is happening because they are dead and not aware of anything, only their bodies will be put to shame. There will be death everywhere for 5 months and no one (all the living unsaved) will be able to do anything because of all their tourments. The saved dead will go into heaven on 5/21/11 with the living saved, and they will be joined with Christ.

This is truly a sad chapter in Mr. Camping’s life now at age 88.

When 5/22/11 arrives at 12:01 am, and Mr. Camping and the world is still here, I have real concerns that he may do something rash to remain “RIGHT” in his seriously errored doctrine. Has anyone ever seen news reports on T.V. of how a father or mother has killed everyone in their family over night, even their small children or new born babies?? There have been several news reports of this in recent times. You may ask youself, WHY would a parent commit this kind of act on their own family? THE ANSWER AS TO WHY IS, “THEY ARE A NARCISSIST” AND A NARCISSIST MUST BE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THEIR OWN MIND, EVEN IF IT MEANS TAKING THE LIFE OF PEOPLE THEY CLAIM TO HAVE LOVED AND PROTECTED. From a classic narcissist’s perspective, EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING MUST CONFORM TO THEIR IDEAS AND JUDGEMENTS IN THE END, including taking the lives of others close to them, if their narcissism has reached a point where it is totally out of control like it was with Jim Jones. Camping may just do the very same thing on 5/22/11, and end up repeating history, even the events that took place at Jonestown, but only on a much larger scale. In my opinion, My Camping would never survive being WRONG about 5/21/11, and I perceive that he will need an escape of some sort to “undo” his being WRONG. Remember, a narcissist can’t deal with being WRONG, it effects them in extreme ways. My prayer is that God will save Mr. Camping from himself and all those who have been led astray by his allorgical doctrine and date setting which has been going on since 1988.

This is my first post here. I have read all of the posts here and have learned a lot about what he teachers. I have also studied his history in the ministry. It appears that Camping left his original church fellowship many decades ago due to his several doctrinal modifications that were radical departures from well established biblical Truths. He was apparantly asked by his former church leadership to stop teaching his own views of scriptures to others in the church he was attending, or for him to step down. So he departed and formed his own ministry which became the Family Radio program. It appears that Mr. Camping developed a rebellious spirit against his own former church authority and was not willing any longer to submit to that authority, which is a violation of New Testament(Rom 13:12). I believe this is where he went off track which has since then, been transformed into religion of Mr. Camping’s own doing. I don’t think he qualifies as a genuine cult leader, however his “ministry” is riddled with a lot of questionable doctrine which is highly inconsistent with well accepted doctrine. Not only this, his significant use of numerology for intrepreting scriptures and date setting for the end of the world, all cast a shadow over his teachings. One big question about Camping that stands out in my mind that others have recently mentioned here on this message board, is that Camping seems to only preach the “end is coming”, but yet, he never seems to preach the Love of God through Jesus Christ and for people to simply put their faith and trust in J.C. I feel his “ministry” is very mechanical and it is a works ministry, because I have heard him say that you have to have an intense desire to study the bible, and his use of this word, “intense” is subjective, is is not measureable, and his definition or experience of intense may not be the same as someone elses. Not only this, the bible sets no such definition of “intense” desire to study the bible as a requirement for salvation and eternal life. I would be very careful to accept Mr. Camping’s teachings.

Hello Ben,welcome and feel free to post. You give a good synopsis of Mr.Campings departure from the Dutch Reformed church he attended but the ministry he formed was a “fellowship”(a group that departed with him)-Family Radio predates that(started in 1958). About his being a cult – that’s why I left the question open for others to discuss in my post on – July 14, 2009 at 12:20 am – He’s very cult-like but can he be classified as a bonafide cult? Has his own doctrine and devotees…….. I’ll reprint here two definitions from that previous post I’ve mentioned here:

From Denver Seminary professor Gordon Lewis-”A cult,then is any religious movement which claims the backing of Christ or the Bible,but distorts the central message of Christianity by 1) an additional revelation,and 2) by displacing a fundamental tenet of the faith with a secondary matter.
Christian Research Institute founder Walter Martin-”a cult might also be defined as a group of people gathered about a specific person or person’s misinterpretation of the Bible.”

Does all this labeling change anything? We can sit back and declare that we have Mr. Camping diagnosed as a cult leader or he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), but how does that help? Do you think that anyoone who is following him will say, Oh yes, I am glad that you pointed that out to me. I will leave everything I hold unto as truth behind and thank you for delivering me. I hardly think so. We sit around judging them by justifying ourselves. It is ironic that the same things that they do and we criticize them for, we turn around and employ the same tactics. Do we believe in the message that Jesus gave us? Bless those that curse us, do good to those who despise us. If we are to be light to the world (including Mr. Camping’s world) we cannot play the same game and win. We never will. Jesus told of a better way, do we really believe Him? That is truly what it means to have faith in Jesus.

Well said Ruth Ann! I agree with you 100%. Thank you for that word of Faith, it has already had an impact on me through the Holy Spirit moving through your words. I now resolve to allowing the Light to shine through me like you are doing. God’s Love expressing Himself through Faith living in us is key here.
You’re absolutely correct!

38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

As sad as it is, we are helpless to change a stubborn heart. We can do like Jesus did and ask God to forgive them because they really don’t know what they are doing.

To those who use Harold Camping as an excuse to disobey God’s warning to depart the churches of men and Satan:

“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan”. Rev 2:9

One is either part of the bride of Christ or part of this “woman” described by God:

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints…” “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit…” “For all nations have drunk of the wine of her fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice FROM HEAVEN SAYING, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES.”

And for those who mock God’s warning of 5/21/11:

“If therefore, thou shall not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I come upon thee”.

“Behold, I will make them of the Synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie…because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”.

I pray that mercy and wisdom be granted us all, this last generation, in these last 19 months.

Augustine,
Babylon the Great, is the entire kingdom of satan of earth, including all secular and religious entities that are not of Christ. Babylon is NOT the christian churches. It is true that many major coporate churches have fallen from the truth totally. But there are many non-denominational Bible Chapels, and other churches that simple believe in the simple Gospel of Christ and LIVING the Christian Life with LOVE toward others. Show me the verse in the Bible that says there will be an end to the Church age? As long as there as christians in the world we are commanded to fellowship together and worship according to the Biblical definition of a church. Mr Camping says to sit home by yourself and listen to Family Radio, he correctly tells Family Radio listeners NOT to fellowship together, because he is afraid of cults forming, like the cult I was in. The fact is the Mr camping’s Alemeda Fellowship in California IS A CHURCH in GOD’s EYES. Just because he changed the name from ALEMEDA Church to ALEMEDA Fellowship, does this make it not a church? There is teaching elders there, and rulership and rules. I watch this on TV in New Jersey, where I receive WFME TV. So if all churches are apostate, then ALEMEDA Fellowship Church is also apostate, can you see the hypocrisy???? And why can Mr Camping fellowship with others in California, but he tells all other listeners not to get together, but to sit home by themselves and listen to Family Radio for hours a day, until we are totally brainwashed and isolated, like the devil wants us to be.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Mr Camping has found a way to twist these verses to somehow prove that we should sit home by ourselves and listen to him all day, and not fellowship with anyone else, not even other Family Radio listeners.

Mr Camping twists many scripture verses to his own destruction, and the destruction of others.

On May 22, 2011, please free yourselves from the multitude of satanic heresies that Harold Camping teaches to thousands if not millions of people.

Mr Camping is correct that we are close to end, I believe we are, one of the signs that we are near the end is that many false prophets will arise, and Harold Camping is a false prophet who was wrong about 1994, and also wrong about 2011.

I can just as easily ask what verse says “Babylon the Great, is the entire kingdom of satan of earth, including all secular and religious entities that are not of Christ. Babylon is NOT the christian churches”? By what method do you judge if a church is apostate? I’m sure their pastor can show you many verses that support his church’s teachings.

Seeking truth in the Bible by looking for a single verse is the root cause of all kinds of apostasy. That is not how God tells us to read and understand His Word, so it is little wonder that most who hear the warning to depart from man’s and Satan’s churches don’t “see it”. While many of us “see it” loud and clear all over the Bible.

Only God can explain why not everyone sees it. God makes it clear that He only lets His elect understand His Truths:

“Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; LEST they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

That is why I try not to get caught up in arguing about this. God will do with our efforts what He will. We cannot convince anyone. We expect the accusations, the “diagnoses”, and the ridicule. God tells us to expect it while man’s and Satan’s church continue to pat themselves on the back and boast of their wonderful works, all the while selling spiritual obedience for money, power, and popularity.

Castigating Harold Camping is a moot point. It won’t change the Truth. It won’t change God’s mind. As God has always done, He has revealed the timing of judgment to His children.

For a hundred years, all Noah ever knew was that the end was coming “someday”. Then, close to the actual day, he was told the precise timing. “As in the days of Noe” it is the same with us. We have always known the end was coming “someday”, but close to the end, God is telling us the precise timing in order to obey the command of sounding the warning when we SEE Him coming.

Forget Camping. Believe God. 19 months. When May 2011 arrives, expect to hear crazy excuses for the global disasters. They are already coming out: Global Warming, Super Solar Flare in 2011, Mayan Calendar, Nostradamus, Polar Shift, St. Malachy predictions, Planet X…and all these things that are “supposed to happen” around 2011 timeframe to cause global destruction. If, God forbid, you are still here on 05/22/11, expect to hear outlandish excuses for the rapture of believers. Alien abduction? Government conspiracy? Man-made disaster? The world has been prepared. We are the last generation.

I have a personal request for you. Since you are leaving the earth on 5/21/11 in the Rapture, would enter into a written contract agreement with me where you will transfer ALL your earthly assets over to me no later than 12 midnight on 5/20/11, which includes ALL your financial resources, i.e. any 401Ks, all the money in your bank account(s), your vehicle(s), all your real estate property which can be in the form of a Quick Deed Title & Equity Transfer, and of course, all the items in your home. Please let me know ASAP if that will be ok with you, and if so, I’ll begin drawing up all the necessary documents for you to sign, then I can email them to you for your signature. Again, please let me know ASAP and I’ll post here on this message board for you my personal email address, then you can reply to it with your first and last name, your complete physical address, and your DOB, then I’ll forward you the necessary documents for you to sign which you can then email back to me, so all of this will remain 100% confidential.

Now, if you decide NOT to agree to this, please be sure to explain WHY in detail.

Precisely Jim! It’s a matter of definition-what constitutes a “church”. I went through this some posts back.
Augustine,we really can’t forget about Mr. Camping or his relationship to this discussion,since he’s the sole repository for this “doctrine” in question. Others (Campingites) may agree with and affirm it,for various reasons, but it stretches credulity to believe they arrived at the same conclusions(and calculations) independently.
Put your faith in no man but the Son of Man,Christ Jesus…and you WILL find mercy ….Yes…BE WARNED……

LOL! Augustine NEVER heard of 5/21/11 until his god and lord Harold Camping feed it to him with a crooked silver spoon along with thousands of other equally mislead souls.

Here, let’s see if he (Augustine) takes OJ up on his offer, lol.

Watch what happens, and in particular, watch what doesn’t happen, lol.

….and Jesus said, “Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS (past tense) Everlasting Life, and shall NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED (double past tense) from death into Life.” John 5:24

Go right ahead Augustine, keep on denying the PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD and watch what happens to you….and keep right on looking for 5/21/11, instead of the personage of the Lord Jesus Christ moment to moment with each breath, and his completed work of redemption on Calvery…..so sorry, I almost forgot, Camping claims that everything Jesus said is a parable with a MUCH DEEPER 3rd or 4th level meaning, RIGHT?…..

Repent and be ye Baptised into the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (and no, this has nothing to do with church services or going swimming in a pool of water, lol.)

OJ, are you really using temptation? Let me get this straight. I believe God when He warns us about 5/21/11. We are to obey God when He tells us to be watchmen and sound the warning. Yet, you want me to help you mock God’s warning by making it appear that business will go on normally after 5/21/11? You want me to take actions which contradict the very warning I am commanded by God to proclaim? You want me to witness that there will be value in earthly possessions on 5/22/11? So I am to witness for God by witnessing against His Word? I’m not sure I understand this logic, but it is not surprising that such confusion exists when God’s Word is denied. Make no mistake, your request reveals the true reason His coming is denied by most; a love of the things that this world has to offer. And you are asking me to help you partake of that sin. Do you know what the Bible says of people who tempt others to sin? Of course, I will not partake of this with you.

Senecus, thank you for being a gracious host of this forum. You state that Camping is the “sole repository” of this information. If that is true, does that make the information less credible? If so, do you apply that same standard to Martin Luther who was the “sole repository” of teaching that salvation is not from good works, but a free gift of God, received only by grace through faith in Jesus as redeemer from sin? Why did not everyone “see it” before he taught it? Why was it so taboo when he taught it? Does Luther’s personal persecution of Jews make his biblical teachings less credible?

Ron K, what can I say other than your ridicule and mockery is a fulfillment of prophecy:

“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” II Peter:3,4

The only one who is “mocking” anything, or anyone here is YOU with YOU believeing a man, instead of trusting in and listening to The Living God.

You believe Mr. Camping’s predictions as coming from God instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to lead you into all Truth, although he has done a lot of date setting BEFORE now, i.e. 1988, 1989, 9/1994, before end of 1994, and now it’s 5/21/11.

Please tell us all, when EXACTLY did you come into the “revelation of 5/21/11?” What was the month and year?? i.e. How long were you aware of this date before Mr. Camping got into your ear???

“LOL! Augustine NEVER heard of 5/21/11 until his god and lord Harold Camping feed it to him with a crooked silver spoon along with thousands of other equally mislead souls”.

Yet you are now saying it is I and not you that are mocking. The Word of God reveals all: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the Fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” II Peter:3,4.

You are going to have to take up your argument with God, not me.

You use my faith in the Bible as evidence that I follow a man. Tell me, do you apply the same standard to yourself? No one taught salvation by grace, not works, until Martin Luther taught it. So why do you follow Martin Luther instead of God? Why do you worship a man? If you do not accept this premise, then neither do I.

“You use my faith in the Bible as evidence that I follow man.” Can’t help to notice how you evade the question about when YOU first got the revelation of 5/21/11. It certainly wasn’t God The Holy Spirit who showed you that in the Bible.

Actually, it was NOT Martin Luther that taught salvation by grace not works, it was Jesus Christ himself, so it is actually YOU who needs to take up YOUR argument with God in all of this, and it is YOU who mocks God by saying that Martin Luther first taught salvation by Grace.

Yes, you keep right on having faith in your Camping Calander (5/21/11) Salvation, which is clearly a WORK, and a contrived one at that. Hee againg for the 3rd time, you mock God again by implying that a date of some kind is what is required for you to be saved, instead of having simple faith in the Blood Atonment of Jesus Christ. THIS LAST POINT IS YOUR GREATEST MOCKERY OF GOD, and Mr. Camping has helped you, seeing that he is your source of truth.

I have been involved with a few blog sites devoted to Mr Camping’s teaching. And they all eventually wind up with a few people constantly going back and forth against each other, and it becomes fruitless. Lets truly get back to the “Bible Alone”. I am about to show us that the “Bible Alone” can not prove the rapture will happen on May 21, 2011, by constantly asking questions that must be answered by the “Bible Alone”. You can not use any man’s books, interpretations, or any secular or historical information, that is the rules.

Augustine, do you agree? I will continue to ask you questions and you must only use scripture verses to answer, and I will prove to you that the Bible does not teach that the rapture will happen on May 21, 2011.

Whenever you cease to answer with only scripture verses than you are admitting you are following a man’s theory and not the Bible, OK?

Fist Question: Where does the Bible say that the rapture of believers will occur on May 21, 2011?

Please only use scripture verses.

If you try to get around this question, or say we must read a man’s books, than you are admitting you are following a man without realizing it.

Augustine will never do to what you suggested, and it’s an excellent proposition on your part. He’ll probably say that you are mocking God and/or trying to tempt him, lol. He already SIDE STEPPED me asking him when EXACTLY did he independently (before or aside from Camping) receive the “revelation from the scriptures” that 5/21/11 is the date of the Rapture. I’ve heard on Family Radio a caller ask Camping about Salvation by Faith alone, and Camping asked the caller to show him just one (1) scripture that says Salvation comes by Faith alone (and there are many), but yet, Camping is not able to produce one (1) scripture holding to his own test, that validates his new date for the rapture being 5/21/11. The spirit operating through him is very clever, it attempts to get people to put their faith in a DATE for salvation, instead of the person of J.C., and his completed work in our behalf on Calvary for the payment of sins, and there is NO work, and NO date that will ever take the place of that, but some how, many like Augustine, don’t get it, and why, because that have not received the H.S.

JimB. Of course, we can tell by RonK’s excitement where this is expected to go. Here is my scriptural response. Please don’t just skim over it. Read carefully. The ALL CAPS emphasis is mine.

“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN’S WISDOM TEACHETH, BUT WHICH THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” I Cor 2.

So why do some people discern God’s warning of 5/21/11 in Scripture and others do not?

“For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matt 13:15

If that doesn’t explain to you how God has revealed this information in His Word, then I can’t answer your questions in any way you would understand. That job is beyond my ability and out of my realm.

Ron K, I’d be happy to tell you about the time in the late 80’s to early 90’s when I felt the Bible said that the end would come before 2018 based on Israel, and my research of the Biblical timeline, and when I heard about Harold Camping…but you are being overtly hostile, which everyone on this forum can see. I will defintely “sidestep” stumbling blocks. Preaching God’s Word does not require submitting to your demands. I am not commanded by God to make you understand. I’m sure you will celebrate my response.

By the way, I’m sure more reasonable folks like Jim and Senecus understood my question to you about Martin Luther. However, I am not demanding that you answer. The question was somewhat rhetorical.

Notice how one of the thiefs dying on the cross next to Jesus Christ had no time for any works, had not time to “get himself ready for the rapture”, had no time to do anything, except simply believe on the person of Jesus Christ when suddenly when he had a change of heart (because previously he was mocking J.C. along with the other thief) and repented from his life of sin by simply saying to the other thief, “We are being punished justly, for we are getting what OUR evil deeds deserve, but this man (Jesus Christ) has done nothing wrong, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Luke 23:41-42. Notice the thief’s confession of Jesus Christ as Lord is what got him saved as God openend his heart to repentence. Then Jesus replied in response to him, “Today you will be WITH ME in Paradise.” Luke 23:43. Gee, I don’t see anywhere in this dialog where the repentent thief stated to Jesus Christ that he will be looking for 5/21/11, for the day of the rapture or his resurrection from the dead, nor did he suggest any DATE whatsoever. But I did see, as would anyone being honest with themselves and with God, is that SIMPLE FAITH IN Jesus Chist with a repentent attitude of admitting to God one’s sins, and knowing they need salvation, is absolutely the only requirement of Salvation, and by the way, God the Holy Spirit is the One who is opening the person’s heart so that they can make such a confession of Faith. Now, of couse Mr. Camping will tell you that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Savior shows that they are not saved. However, if you have faith in Mr. Camping’s new rapture date setting of 5/21/11 and call out to God for mercy, must may be, may be God will decide to save you. I have heard many callers on Family Radio ask Mr. Camping to show them where it says that in the Bible, and of course, he immediately turns the volume down so no one can hear the caller’s voice debating with him, and then he begins expanding into a 10 minute narcissistic discussion of his 40 years of long study, and his intense desire to study the bible, and his elaborate confirmational calculations, etc., all of which is nothing short of some insance story out of a lunatic farm somwehere,because all of it is a bunch of B.S. an has absolutely NOTHING to do with how God saves people. If a person today is able to get saved by their looking for the date of the rapture, either on 5/21/11 or any other date, that is a WORK, and there is NO work that can get anyone saved, THAT IS BIBLE FACT. Did the thief on the cross do any WORK to get saved, or was his salvation based on his sudden revelation of Jesus Christ coupled with his confession of Jesus Christ as Lord, because he indeed referred to J.C. as Lord, when earlier during his crucification, he was moking Jesus Christ. So if someone can be saved TODAY differently that how that thief on the cross got saved, that would mean that God’s method of saving people changed when Mr. Camping came on the scene with all his date setting. Keep in mind that Camping claims that there is NO true believers left in the world, with the exception of Family Radio listners, lol.

So Mr. Augustine, please tell us why the thief on the cross who Jesus saved, never said anything about a future date for the rapture or resurrection in the future, or did Jesus ever mention anything like that to him before his death. Why is that?? Mr. Camping, says that Jesus and the Father both know the same things, so certainly Jesus knew of the future date of the resurrection and rapture, which according to Mr. Camping’s Calandar Gospel,is 5/21/11, so since this DATE is so very important and without it, you can’t be ready for God’s return, and therefore you can’t get saved according to Mr. Camping’s revelation from God through is 40 years of studying the Bible, how is it that Jesus didn’t mention anything like this to the theif on the cross who he saved???, Or is it your and Mr. Camping’s position that the thief was NOT saved, so that your doctrine can go on unchallenged.
What a joke this 5/21/11 gospel to be saved, (previously 9/94 gospel to be saved) manufactured by Mr. Camping is, lol.

Notice how Augustine consinuously attritubes his misunderstanding of scritpures to spiritual Truth in his date setting gospel, and like Camping, notice that they claim to know Truth, but they both NEVER once mention the source of all Truth and Eternal Life himself, which is Jesus Christ. Notice how in their all their “warnings of the rapture on 5/21/11”, there is NO mention from Augustine or Mr. Camping for anyone to PUT THEIR FAITH AND TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST….wonder why that is?? Here, let me tell you why…..just as the Bible says, THEY PREACH A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, they attempt to substitute the power of Salvation through simple Faith in J.C., into people setting their mind and heart on a DATE in the future which of couse of itself, has no power to save anyone. NOTICE how they both claim to KNOW THE TRUTH, but they BOTH never point anyone to The Truth, again, Jesus Christ. There is a reason they do this, and they themselves are so blinded by the Devil’s deception, they can’t see it, nor do they want to see it, which has to do with hardness of heart on their part and a hatred for The Truth who is none other than the personage of Jesus Christ. This very clearly tells who they are.

Augustine, I love your typical Campingite response to my request. Just like Camping, you inject all kinds of subjective intrepretation into what is being said, so that it ends up saying what YOU want it to say, instead of what the writer actually said. You do the exact same thing with scriptures that you did with my request for you to sign all your possessions over to me before 5/21/11. Not once did I ever mention what I would do with your possessions after you hand them over to me. YOU assumed that I would be using material possessions for some kind of personal satisfaction. This one point by itself shows how you assign meaning to something that is not being said, which is the same process of how you end up erroring in scriptural definitions. Your parting with your earthly possessions over to me, or to anyone else should have NO impact on your faith in 5/21/11, so please don’t try to deceive me or anyone else here on this message board. The truth is, you don’t believe your own date setting. Like Ron K said, your warning of 5/21/11 has no directive of one placeing his or her Faith in the person of Jesus Christ, I mean after all, he is the modern day Arch isnt’ He? Didn’t Noah in his day when he was warning the people of the land of the day of the Flood was coming, and their only escape was for them to GET INTO THE ARCH along with him and his entire family??, So since The Arch in Noah’s day typified Jesus Christ being the Arch of Salvation post flood era, how is it that your warning of 5/21/11 isn’t coupled with you directing people to put their Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ before that date??? Here, let me answer that for you….you preach a different gospel, you are NOT at all interested in the True Faith of the Bible being Jesus Christ and his completed work on Calvary for the remission of sins by simple Faith, you substitute the Truth for your mindless lies which anyone with half a brain can see through. What a deceptive, religions zellot you and Mr. Camping are.

All,
I asked Augustine politley to show us where the Bible says that the rapture will be on May 21, 2011, and I thoroughly read his response. Again he did not answer the question, but assumed we are not saved, and can not understand spiritual things.

Myself and others have fully read and understood Mr Camping’s Biblical Calendar of History, and his books concerning his date setting, including 1994? and Time Has an End. I fully understand these books, and I DISAGREE with them. Mr Camping has twisted Genesis 5 and 11, and other scriptures, to somehow come out with a 13000 years old earth. And then found some numbers that point to 7000 years from Noah to 2011, and therefore concluded that there will be a rapture on May 21, 2011. He somehow also concluded that Noah went into the Ark on May 21, when the calendar that Noah used pre-dated the old Hebrew Calendar, so there is no way to say it coincided with our Calendar date of May 21. Mr Camping is twisted the Bible to make all these seemingly amazing coincidences force into his scheme.

Do you understand Augustine? I am not ignorant of what Mr Camping teaches, I have thouroughly researched it and understand it, and I disagree with it and found it to be blatantly Unbiblical. I am confident that I know more of the details of Mr Campings teaching than you do, I had to study these before 1994, because I felt it was very serious to say no one could be saved after 1988, and the world would end in 1994. I studied these things diligently, and disagreed with them, and I was told at that time that I was a heretic going to Hell by followers of Harold Camping. I also handed a copy of my studies in 1993, to Harold Camping himself, and said I was way off, and that the world will end in 1994. Now he came up with new dates in 2011 based on the same wrong Bible Calendar of History. These dates are also wrong.

The end does no justify the means, so it does not matter how many numbers line up to point to 2011, the foundation of the 13000 years old earth is WRONG. The date when the Flood occurred is WRONG. Therefore all calculations based on these events will be wrong.

When we are in the final tribulation period, we will know it, it will be a time like no other ever before in the history of the world. We are not there yet, and the tribulation will last for a few years. (probably somewhere between 3.5 and 7 years). So therefore we know that the world will NOT END IN 2011.

I say this with 100% confidence just as I was confident about the world NOT ending in 1994.

Besides the end time dates, Mr Campings teaches many very unbiblical heresies including Annhilation, and every single Church and Church goer is under the rule of Satan. This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and is getting dangerously close to the unpardonable sin, if just one person is saved in the world that goes to church and is filled with the Holy Spirit.

All of the things you said about not being able to see because our eyes are not opened by God, sadly apply to you and other listeners of Family Radio. This is a great deception you are under, and you do not realize it, but you will realize it on May 22, 2011 hopefully.

Satan’s greatest trick is to abuse the Bible and twist the Bible, and get people to focus on Bible knowledge instead of our relationship with Christ. The Pharisees focused on Bible Knowledge, and were far from the truth.

No one here will be able to convince you of anything, so let us agree to disagree. At least with this doctrine all we have to do is wait to see who was right and wrong.

May God give comfort to all who are decieved by these teachings after these dates pass.

Excellent review of biblical facts on your part, and especially your personal account and experience directly with Mr. Camping, so you are not coming from a heresay dynamic. Let everyone clearly understand and comprehend that Mr. Camping preaches a Calander Gospel, which has to do with drawing everyone’s attention AWAY from the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, and re-directing everyone’s attention to Family Radio and Mr. Camping’s theology, which is riddled with all kinds of incredible errors. Like OJ posted, notice how Mr. Camping never mentions anyone puttings ones faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation along with his 5/21/11 “rapture-end of the world warning”, with Jesus being the Ark of Salvation and the only possible means for anyone to be saved. Notice how Camping and his deceived date setting followers stuck on 5/21/11, never mention looking to Jesus Christ for their salvation before their date. Camping send all kinds of elaborate explanation about Noah’s Ark and people in his day not responding to his preaching and getting into the ark, and then Camping compares the same thing to present day, with 5/21/11, but he NEVER says ones faith must be put in J.C., and there is a reason for it. Camping says that all one can do is, quote “cry out to God for mercy (he uses the term “God” in a generic manner on purpose), listen to Family radio, and maintain an intense desire to study the bible, and then, and only then God MIGHT decide to save someone, so even in all of this date setting that he does, and crying out to God for mercy, and looking to 5/21/11, NONE of it translates into a person being saved, because according to Camping theology, NO ONE CAN EVER BE CERTAIN OF THEIR SALVATION, WHICH OF ITSELF IS HERISY. This last point is like someone being married to someone, or in relationship with someone, and neither person knows about it.

Let’s all be clear about this:

“Salvation is found in no one else (referring to Jesus Christ), for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

According to Mr. Camping, all one has to do is in a generic manner, call upon God, cry out for mercy, listen to Family Radio daily, develop an intense desire to read the bible (of course applying his subjective definition of “intense”), stay out of any church meetings, and focus on his new date of the rapture, 5/21/11. This is Mr. Camping’s gospel in a nutshell, and it is absolutely lunatic in nature and an absolute contradiction to what the scriptures say a person must do to be saved, which of course is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Camping is a very, very clever bird, but as the bible teachs, the elect will not be deceived by such teachings from various antichrists, which by definition is what Camping is, due to his teaching another way of salvation which I just outlined above. What a joke he is with his fabricated calander gospel.

Ron, exactly(concerning salvation). Mr. Camping has allowed his teachings to eclipse the simple work of the Cross. Aside from his “calendar gospel” (good way of putting it!)his thoughts on the elect come from a hyper-Calvinism he embraced years ago(no,this is NOT a swipe at John Calvin,just a perversion of his teachings).
I submit(as I did in an earlier post)-if you are a believer,walking in HIS Spirit and leaning on His everlasting arms,He could choose to consumate history tomorrow-HE is Sovereign,and you would (should) welcome it.Or,He could come on May 21,2011-(I know,some are picking up stones now,just follow me on this)- Not because Mr. Camping says so,but because HE(the Lord), is Sovereign(Campingites are now screaming-”NO,its because His Word says so and Mr.Camping found it out!!Please…its “Script-torture” subjectivism). In short,salvation = preparedness.
But, as Ron has elucidated, a Campingite can never be quite certain of being part of the elect. If I were a Campingite,I would NOT be looking forward to 2011-how’s one to know they won’t be among the “annihilated”?

Do you know that I knew a guy who committed suicide in 1994 in New Jersey because of Harold Cmaping’s end of the world 1994 prediction and other false doctrines. I also read a few months ago on a Camping Yahoo Blog Site, that a girl who followed Camping, was considering suicide, if that raptured happened and she was still left here!!!!! If course there will be no rapture, but just the fact the Campingites were discussing suicide should be warning enough of the destructive nature of Camping’s teachings!!!!!!

Also, even though Mr Camping never told anyone to do this, there were many people leading up to 1994 who sold their houses and everything else they had, and gave the money to Family Radio. After 1994 passed, they tried to contact Family Radio to get their money back, but were coldly ignored by Harold Camping.

Woe, Woe, Woe to anyone who agrees with any of the Satanic Heresies that Harold Camping is polluting the world with.

Augustine – What would a Christ-centered church look like? I know you will tell me that there are not any, but Mr. Camping would say that there was at one point in history churches that represented God. What did that church look like? If you had the ability to make a God glorifying church, what would it be like?

I try to look at the world from their eyes. What can we say to represent truth that would draw them away from Mr. Camping? They have each other assuring themselves that they are the wise and chosen. To be able to see what Mr. Camping teaches takes a special wisdom. Why would you want to walk away from people telling you everyday how special you are? We tell them that they are deluded and crazy. Which group would you pick? I have to say that feeling special and chosen would win. It is an ego trip to feel that you have secret knowledge that the world doesn’t have. As humble as they all claim to be, they love the claim of seeing things that others don’t. Why would you leave that to be just like everyone else? As long as their revelation is future, they won’t walk away from the pride of being special.

I firmly believe that the following two scriptures sums up the cause of Mr. Camping going down the path of rebellion to sound biblical doctrine and his numerous attempts to predict the Rapture and End of The World, which he has done at least 3 or more times from what I researched about his ministry, and he seems to be the only “ministry” on earth that is aware of such prophecy dates that he sets, which he has always maintained are in the Bible, but yet, each time ALL of his prophecies have failed to come to past. Many “church leaders” and “ministers” through time have attempted this, and so far, all of them have failed.
#1
“No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.” (2Peter 1:20)

#2
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the Truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”(2 Timothy 4:3-4). Notice this last sentence. Camping turns people away from Jesus Christ as the source of Salvation, to the fable of looking for a date in the future, i.e. 5/21/11, and fixating on that date as a means of salvation, or a substitution for Christ.

It should be plain to most, that there is no mercy that comes from “knowing” anything apart from the identity of Jesus Christ and his completed work on Calvary for the remission of sins, including the timing of Jesus’ return and the end of the world. Camping would have people believe otherwise. The “Mercy of God” is the same Faith, Justification, Sanctification and Salvation bestowed upon every believer. NO one is saved by knowing or doing anything if they are trusting in Jesus Christ’s completed work on Calvary. All one can do is receive Him by Faith under the leading of the Holy Spirit of God who reveals Jesus’s identity and the H.S. also convicts the world of sin and shows sinners their need for the Saviour. Instead, Camping invented his Calendar Gospel as a substitute for trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ, so this in and of itself qualifies him as an AntiChrist, where Camping followers are putting their faith and trust for their salvation in a specific date which requires taking some kind of action (”work”) in order to become saved prior to 5/21/11, or any other date that Camping has previously declared. Nothing could be further from the Truth. It is erroneous and blatantly false which is the reason why Camping keeps changing and modifying his prophecy for the Rapture over the past two decades.

Also, the “sign” the Ninevites received (that Camping also uses to mislead people) was not the warning of “yet forty days”. The sign was the prophet Jonah, himself, who typified the Lord Jesus Christ. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is all about HIM, not about WHEN (i.e. his current 5/21/11 prediction of the Rapture, or any other dates Camping sets for this event).

Consider this: Jon 3:4- And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Harold Camping and his followers are failing the test by looking PAST the “sign” of Jesus Christ to the Camping’s timeline. Jonah’s entrance into the city was the only sign the Ninevites needed to repent. The Ninevites typified the body of Christ who stand at all times in need of the grace of repentance.

Now, let’s look at specifics about Camping’s timeline:
I am aware of Camping followers asking the following question on the Open Forum radio program using 2nd Peter 3:8 to prove his 5/21/11 timeline keyed to the Flood of Noah’s day: i.e. ”But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” Camping says that this isolated scripture perfectly shows us a timepath of 7,000 years from 4990 B.C. to 2011 A.D., since God tells us there that “one day is as a thousand years”? He then reiterates, “See how this ties in perfectly with Noah’s 7-day warning before the flood began, proving that May 21, 2011 is accurate and an important part of the end-time gospel?

Here’s what Camping doesn’t see and is not open to God leading him to Truth. 2nd Peter 3:8 clearly states that “one day” is AS “a thousand years”, “with the Lord” – NOT US HERE ON EARTH. It also states that “a thousand years” is “AS” “one day”. The words “as” in each time comparison clearly prohibit us from viewing the time comparisons as literal, although in most other instances, Camping claims that most or all of the scriptures are written in parables. Furthermore, although there are two (2) time comparisons shown in this verse – not one, Camping has taken only one of them (”one day = a thousand years”) to use as a literal timepath in his timeline leading to May 21, 2011, thus his error and misleading people who have a genuine desire to know the Lord, instead Camping directs people to put faith in Himself through his date setting for the Rapture as if that was somehow going to get someone saved, which of course it can’t.

Believe only on the person of Jesus Christ for Salvation and Eternal Life, nothing else, and ALWAYS be ready for Christ’s return on a moment to moment basis as you are helping others receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the calandar gospel that Camping preaches.

Here’s how Camping distorts scriptures to say what he wants them to say, thus creating his own brand of doctrine.

#1
He takes obscured scripture verses and attempts to bring greater clarity on other scripture verses that are already plainly stated very clearly. This can only be accomplished in reverse order provided that the scriptures are relevant to each other.

#2
In a similar manner, he takes Old Testament scriptures and attempts to bring greater clarity on New Testament scriptures. Another way of saying this, is that he attempts to take a “shadow” of an object to created greater clarity of the object itself that is casting the shadow. This is like a person claiming that he can use a photograph of a person to better describe the actual person standing directly in front of them, instead of the other way around.

#3
He selectively disregards or “tosses out” scripture verses that are an integral part of the whole revelation found in other areas of scriptures, then he injects subjective intrepretation to draw a final conclusion that ends up being errorenous or presumed. This is like a pilot of an aircraft ignoring or disregarding flight vectors that are all required and absolutely necessary to get him to a specific destination. Camping claims to allow the Bible to be it’s own dictionary, comparing scripture verses to scripture verses, and never relying only on isolated scriptures to make final conclusions, but yet, this is EXACTLY what he ends up doing by making other critical errors that I’ve described above.

#4
Finally, the matter of his narcissistic personality disorder that can’t take being wrong about anything, EVER. The result of this dynamic alone absolutely guarantees that his conclusions valid and come from God. For example, I heard Mr. Camping state on the Open Forum radio program last week, that God judged the Nation of Israel from 1948 to 1988, and during those 40 years (God’s testing timetable), the Nation as a whole has bared NO FRUIT, i.e. he said, “they remain a faithless nation of unbelievers.” He used the illustration of the Fig Tree that was chopped down because it did not bare any fruit in season, and not only that, he uses the scripture verses that the fig tree was cursed by Jesus, and as a result of that, there is no possibility of anyone in Israel being saved past 1988, which according to Camping, proves that God is finished with Israel, which is absolutely ludacrist and an irresponsible disregard for scores of scriptures that say the EXACT OPPOSITE, i.e. “All of Israel will be saved” Rom 9:11. I’ve head Camping comment on Rom 9:11 and he says that this scripture has nothing to do with Israel being saved, because the Fig Tree sign clearly showed that they are a cursed nation and God is finished with them becaue they didn’t pass his testing for 40 years, from 1948 to 1988. Do you see what I’m talking about now with all his narcissistic subjective, errorenous conclusions and disregarding important vector scriptures that he doens’t like what they say because it doesn’t allow him to be RIGHT??? Now, it you go to your scriptures you’ll find out there was at least one person mentioned in the bible who told God that all the people the nation were without faith, but yet, God stated that there are many who have remained faithful to Him. Go look it up. In this example, Camping draws errorenous conclusions based on his own narcissistic self-centric perspective where everything must conform to his personal subjective conclusions. There are hundreds of other such examples where he does the exact same thing.

A great interview that reveals the heart of Mr. Camping. Notice how he never says that God had any part in his revelation. It was all because he studied the Bible. He also states that judgment day as he describes it is absolutely going to happen. The comment that the other guest made at the end “if your facts are wrong, your faith is wrong” is so true.

Excellent post! Notice how Camping immediately gets into a run-on discussion about HIS years of study of the Bible as a premesis of establishing HIS OWN authority. Also, he talks around the question about 1994, instead of proving why this date is from God like he claims. Lastly, notice that he disregards other scriptures (like I just posted above) that clearly state the opposite of his doctrinal position. Now, can you imagine Camping having the gall and audacity to refer to someone as an “ego maniac” and taking scriptures out of context, lol.

I concur with your post about Camping making reference to God being “finished with Israel” as a result of his subjective and allogorical interpretation and misuse of scriptures applying the parable of the Fig Tree being cursed by J.C., and later being “chopped down” for it not producing fruit in season, then his making an incredible leap to say that these scripture verses means that Israel has NOT passed God’s 40 years of testing from 1948 (when they became a modern day nation) to 1988, and have remained an unbelieving nation to this very day. Now, this “revelation” of Mr. Camping’s, as all his “revelations” he claims are “Bible truth” and come from the mouth of God.

Let’s take a look at what Camping has done here with this single example of his twisting scriptures to mean what he wants them to mean:

Do you recall the account in the Bible when the prophet Elijah suggested to God that he was “the only one left in all the land that had not bowed down to Baal?” Remember that?

Here it is to take a look at the dialog between Elijah and God in which is recorded both in the Book of Romans 11:13-14, and also 1Kings 19:18.

Rom 11:13

Elijah speaking:

“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I ALONE am left and they are seeking my life.”

Rom 11:14

God’s response

“I have kept for Myself seven thousand (7,000) men who have NOT bowed their knee to Baal.”

Notice here how even a legitimate prophet of God is seen taking a position of his own that is clearly in error, self-centric, contradictory to God’s intentions, and presumes something to be true about God’s economy and plans that isn’t. Elijah applied his human subjective “logic” (just like Mr. Camping) in an attempt to make his position FACT (just like Mr. Camping), when in reality he fabricated a self made position as a substitute for God’s Sovereignty.
This is EXACTLY what Mr. Camping is good at.

This is an example of how man’s fallen nature (even a legitimate prophet like Elijah) is attempting to second guess God, just like Mr. Camping does, and Mr. Camping is NO prophet of God although he pretends to be.

So in saying this, Camping clearly claims to know all the hearts of every Jew living in the Nation of Israel, and he suggests that he knows for FACT that NONE of them are believers in Jesus Christ being the Son of God and Messiah. The term for this is, Messianic Jews. Camping claims that there are NO Messianic Jews in the Nation of Israel, never have been and never will be, and therefore his grossly errored conclusion is, “God has no plan of salvation for any of them, because they as a Nation didn’t pass God’s 40 years of testing from 1948 to 1988.” This statement from Mr. Camping also makes him Anti-Semitic.

Camping is in stark contrast to the Word of God where the scriptures declare:

Camping also selectively forgets (and errors in his reasoning) that throughout time, God has ALWAYS kept a remeant of believers for Himself, and this certainly applies to modern day Jews living in the Nation of Israel rather or not Mr. Camping cares to acknowledge this.

Camping really needs to stop playing God and subjecively assigning his personal meaning to scriptures that not only don’t make sense, but they are blasmaphous in nature.

Yesterday on the Open Forum radio program, a caller called in and asked the following question to Mr. Camping:

10/15/09 at 6:25pm

Caller:

“Hello Mr. Camping, would you please tell me why you think 5/21/11 is the date of the Rapture?”

Camping’s response:

“I don’t think it, this date (5/21/11) is an ABSOLUTE FACT because God has revealed it in the bible, it is in the bible if you study carefully, and anyone who does not believe it ALSO does NOT believe the Word of God, and as a result, you (or anyone)will ABSOLUTELY go into destruction with the rest of the unbelieving world.”

This dialog clearly confirms Mr. Camping’s calendar gospel whereby one’s faith in a specific date is required for their salvation (not Faith in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Atonment for all sin), but then again, salvation according to Mr. Camping, is NOT guaranteed anyway by God, so all of it is inconsequential, and furthermore, according to Mr. Camping, if someone dies as an “unbeliever”, they vanish into thin air after their body is thrown out of the grave by God onto the ground in shame for all the world to see, lol, althogh they themselves are unconscious and not aware of it, lol.

How clever, how clever is Mr. Camping’s salvation by faith in a date, which by the way, is constantly being changed, updated, or modified as needed.

If there ever was an example of “Satan transforming himself into an angel of light”, Mr. Camping fits this bible based definition, not because he is intentionally misleading people, it’s because he himself is deceived. Camping does come with truth, but so does Satan, with the TWIST that typically is
a mixture of partial truth (or out of context truth) and flat out lies. Keep in mind that Camping is not doing this intentionally, as he himself is deceived. BenG pointed out a good example of this with Camping’s statements about “God being finished with Israel as a result of God testing them as a Nation from 1948-to-1988 and they failed to “bare fruit” and remain a Nation of unbelievers to this day, which is of course a typical Camping allegorization mixed with on his famous application of numerology, but more astoundingly, it’s an dramatic example of Camping playing God by claiming that there are “NO Jews in the State of Israel from 1948 to 1988 that became believers, and they as a Nation remain in unbelief
to this day.” With this, Camping implies his having “omniscience”. Anyone who knows their bible, also knows that God has a heart for the Jews, it is The Central Theme of God’s Economy. As God declairs in the bible, salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22), and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ by Faith, have been grafted into the branches of the the Olive Tree (i.e. God’s remanant of believing Jews). (Romans 11:24-33). Please review also Romans 11:17-25. God mentions in these scriptures for people to NOT BE IGNORANT of these facts.

Regarding Mr. Campings “Calander Gospel.”

Simply put, Camping implies that faith in a date that he sets for the rapture through his elaborate application of numerology and mathematical calculations that no one understands but himself, has the power by to atone for sins, and his new modified date for the rapture is presently 5/21/11, which Camping very boldly clamis is quote “AN ABSOLUTE FACT, IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.”

We expect lies (and worse) as part of the slander against those who are sounding the warning of the end, but these are easily refuted.

Jim Jones was a proud atheist who invented a religious organization as an attempt to infiltrate religion in order to demonstrate his Marxism. His goals were social/political. He frequently denigrated the Word of God as a “false paper idol” and claimed he would teach men to be their own gods and the God of the Bible was a nonexistent “Sky god”. Excerpts from his bio: Early obsession with Stalin, Marx, Hitler. Killed animals so he could hold funerals. Joined the Communist Party. Performed “faith healing” scams to earn money. Was a door to door pet monkey salesman. Set up a commune in South America. Regularly used LSD and marijuana. Solicited men for sex. Sexually abused a man in front of his followers. And the list goes on.

Camping’s been around a while. He became a civil engineer, started and sold Camping Construction, and jointly started Family Radio, which has been lauded for its conservative, humble, and faithful radio ministry by thousands of church ministries worldwide for decades. In 50 years, they’ve never accused him of controversial teachings…until their pockets became threatened by God’s Word which Family Radio proclaims. Camping doesn’t get involved in politics, Family Radio doesn’t sell anything. They urge people to search the Scriptures and pray for wisdom. They don’t ask for a following, and discourage forming any religious bodies.

These association fallacies and armchair diagnoses are eye rollers, but are just the tip of the iceberg for what God told us to expect. We rejoice in the fact that God is in control of His Gospel going into the world as He is merciful to enable our efforts. As we pass the two year mark for the end, we expect to see this kind of desperation increase, as God has mercifully warned us.

Ok Augustine-Good post about Jim Jones, very informative. But nevertheless, JJ still made the bible say what HE wanted it to say, otherwise many of his victims who sought Faith in the God of the Bible, and had faith in JJ as their pastor, wouldn’t have been following him based on all his personal political views and all the other things that you said he was doing, may be some would follow him on that basis yes, but NOT all of them. As you know, only a hand full of people escaped Jonestown with their lives, and the vast majority were murdered by him, FACT not fiction…..and WHY…AGAIN, they were trusting in JJ’s intrepretation of the Bible being led astray, again, FACT not fiction despite what you have outlined.

And yes, God is in control, not Mr. Camping, which is the very reason why 5/21/11 is going to come and go, and you along with all you other Campingites and Mr. Camping will still be here, unless he decides to issue a new decree of some sort that of course you and others like you will follow, of yes, “God is in control.”

ESCAPE FROM CAMPINGTOWN……..RUN DON’T WALK…….

You go right ahead and keep thinking that “a date”, any date for that fact set for the Rapture by a man, has the POWER to atone for you sins, lol,,,,,keep right on thinking that……SALVATION IS BY FAITH ALONE IN THE PERSON AND BLOOD ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST (BIBLE FACT NOT FICTION-IT IS CENTRAL TO THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST),,,,NOT A DATE, AND TO SAY OTHERWISE SHOWS WHO AND WHAT MR. CAMPING IS AND ALSO WHO YOU ARE,,,,,YES, KEEP RIGHT ON BELIEVING THAT A DATE HAS THE POWER TO ATONE FOR YOUR SINS,,,,

I have no belief at all that obedience to God’s warning of 5/21/11 provides atonement for sins. Only Christ’s payment does that. Obedience to God’s Word and warning of 5/21/11 is evidence that we desire to do God’s will and follow his command to be watchmen and sound the warning when we see Him coming. To reject it is to reject His Word, which is evidence of being still lost. The Bible states that those who think they remain safe from His wrath in the churches are not watching and therefore will be overtaken as a theif in the night, but not those who are watching. I think you should be careful not to be guilty of your own accusation of twisting God’s Word. Your evidence for your argument amounts to little more than semantics.

My commentary on Jones was to illustrate the desperate attempt to smear Camping by making a comparison. Again, Jones didn’t twist Scripture to say what he wanted…he regarded Scripture as old superstitious writings. He was an atheist. But as if invoking his name weren’t bad enough, you had to lie even about him in order to try to tie him to Camping by comparison.

My posts have been consistent, but those who “disagree” with me keep at it with false accusations that get more and more wild and desperate. Their posts are filled with “lol’s”, distractions, armchair diagnoses, etc. They then deny they are mocking. As someone who is not a physician, I can identify more than one diagnosis out of the DSM-IV that some on this forum demonstrate “symptomatic criteria” of. But that would be a distractor from the point, and a false argument. Doesn’t stop some folks, though.

“He who trusts in Him alone (Jesus Christ) shall NOT come into judgement. He who does NOT TRUST in HIM (such as trusting in a man, or a date, or something else to save them) has already received their sentence, because his trust is NOT resting on the NAME of God’s only Son.” (John 3:18)

Notice that at the end of this scripture verse, it says, “the person’s trust is NOT resting on the NAME of God’s only Son”, meaning, that the person who ends up getting judged by God, is because their relying on something other than the NAME of Jesus Christ to save them from God’s judgement. Gee, I don’t see anywhere in this definitive scripture verse where belief in any dates are mentioned for not coming into God’s judgement. Of course, Mr. Camping would say that this scripture verse doesn’t mean what it says, it is an isolated scripture, it actually means something else, specifically, quote by Mr. Camping “the fact of the matter, is if you don’t believe on 5/21/11 at the day of the rapture and end of the world, it means you don’t trust God, are not a true believer, and will therefore enter into judgement.” ALL OF WHICH OF COURSE IS A DIRECT CONTRIDICTION OF GOD’S WORD.

The only “distractor from the point” or “arm chair diagnosis” here, is Mr. Camping’s Calandar Gospel, the one where according to Mr. Camping, faith in 5/21/11 has the power to atone for sins and therefore escape falling into God’s judgement.

Plain and simple to see and understand, unless of course the individual is under some sort of supernatural spell.

In my book, any “joke” is just that, a joke, and it deserves all kinds of LOL!

Camping’s Calandar Gospel if it were not so sad, it would actually be funny, but it’s not for reason of his leading people astray, just like JJ.

The fundamental problem with all you Camping followers, is that you need salvation, you need to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God who’s job is to lead you into all Truth, not Mr. Camping’s allogorical and numerology based definitions of truth.

If Jim Jones was not twisting scripture to say what he wanted it it say, then Mr. Augustine, please tell us all why almost 1,000 people were following his teachings, were killed by JJ??? If you even find a video/audio clip of JJ, you’ll see and hear him say that it is “better for us all to die here in Jonestown and go to Heaven to be with The Lord, than to face being captured by U.S. military forces in the jungles when they get here.” Sounded to me as if he was helping people look forward to entering into heaven via drinking his wonderful batch of Kool-Aid.

It is YOU, Mr. Augustine who is telling lies, Jim Jones most certainly taught the bible with all kinds of praise the Lord this, and Praise the Lord that, which is the very reason why so many people were following him.

You bible teacher and authority, Mr. Camping, recently stated on the Open Forum radio program, the following:

QUOTE:

“God’s testing of the Nation of Israel took place between the years 1948-to-1988, a total 40 year period which is God’s number for testing.” “During those 40 years, no Jews became believers in the Gospel and the entire Nation (of Israel) remains in unbelief to this very day, proving that God has no further plans for them (the Jews) for salvation, and so they are no different than the rest of the unbelieving world.” “This information can be found in the Bible if you carefully study all the scriptures regarding the Fig Tree parable and how it was cursed by Jesus Christ, and later commanded to be chopped down.”

Ok, Mr. Augustine, this is what you bible teacher Mr. Camping said live the other week during the Open Forum radio program. Wow, my question is DO YOU AGREE WITH HIS ABOVE STATEMENT AS THE “TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD” as Mr. Camping claims, or do you disagree with him?”

Here’s the latest double talke of Mr. Camping on today’s family radio program:

Today, 10/22/09 at 6:30 pm, a gentleman called in to the Family Radio program and asked Mr. Camping the following question live on the air.

“Mr. Camping, what work must someone do in order to be saved?”

Camping’s response:

10/22/09 @6:31 pm
#1
“Our salvation is based upon the MERCY of God, alone, nothing else”, all you can do is cry out for mercy to God and have an intense desire to study the bible, then may be, just may be, God will save you.”

10/22/09 @ 6:32 pm
#2
“However with this in mind, if we can do any work whatsoever in an attempt to be saved, it means that we are ABSOLUTELY NOT saved.”

followed by:

10/22/09 @6:33 pm
#3
“If we attempt to make any contribution to God’s plan of salvation to be saved, it shows that we are NOT saved.”

Now, notice the stark contridictions here. Camping says that no one can do anything to be saved, but in order to qualify for salvation according to him, you must do the WORK of intensely studying the bible and crying out to God for mercy. The word WORK is obviously a “VERB”, it conveys action. Camping contradicts himself two times in a row, back to back. First he says that one must cry out for mercy, which is a WORK, then he says that one must demonstrate an intense desire to study the bible, which is DEFINITELY WORK, hands down. Both of these statments are bluntly contradictory to his opening statement in response to the caller’s initial question.

Now get this,

The same caller then asked Mr. Camping how he came into the “revelation” of 5/21/11 being the date of the Rapture, and end of the world?

Mr. Camping said the following in response to this same caller’s second question:

10/22/09 @ 6:36 pm

Mr. Camping
“The way we know that 5/21/11 is the correct date for the Rapture is that WE (i.e. referring to himself and others at Family Radio’s Open Forum program)DID THE WORK OF DEVELOPING THE TIME LINE FOR THE END OF THE WORLD which can be traced back to the Great Flood in Noah’s day, then going forward in time to 1994 which was the year that the church age ended, God began to open our understanding more and more about end times, and through our (i.e. himself and others at Family Radio) deligent study of God’s Word over the years, we now known only for about the past year and a half, that the Rapture and God’s judgement upon the world will occur on 5/21/11, and the world will end exactly 5 months later on 10/21/11.

Now, notice here in this elaborate statement of Mr. Camping, that he ONCE AGAIN contradicts himself by openly stating that he and others at Family Radio did the WORK of developing the time line for the Rapture, but yet, just minutes earlier, he told the caller that if anyone does any WORK to be saved, it means that they are “ABSOLUTELY NOT SAVED”, so by his own self-contradistory confession, Camping himself is NOT saved, for mere fact that he said that he did the WORK of developing the time line leading to 5/21/11, and he has already openly stated on the air, that unless a person accepts this date (5/21/11) as the date of the rapture and end of the world, which HE CLAIMS comes from God’s revealed Word, it means that they are NOT save, and will go into destruction with the rest of the unbelieving world.

NOW, DOES EVEYONE HERE SEE WHAT I’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WITH MR. CAMPING’S NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER, WHICH IS STEEPED IN ALL KINDS OF SELF-CONTRADICTION!

Keep in mind also, that according to Mr. Camping, even if you believe 5/21/11 as the date of the Rapture, it still does not mean that you are saved, because God only knows who will and will not be saved, and you have nothing to do with that, all you can do is cry out for mercy to God (WORK)and keep watching for 5/21/11 (WORK).

What a CRAZY, CRAZY DISCOMBOBULATED GOSPEL THIS GUY PREACHERS, how deceived he is with all his delusional, numerological, and allogorical based doctrine.

OH, here’s one more thing Camping said before the radio program ended for the evening which is in direct contradiction to God’s Word:

He told another caller that quote-

“if anyone says that they have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or claim to have Faith in Christ for salvation, it ABSOLUTELY SHOWS THAT THEY ARE NOT SAVED.”

Notice how the thief on the cross just seconds before his last breath confessed Jesus as “Lord” when he said, quote, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”, and Jesus replied, “in this day, you will be with me in Paradise.” READ YOUR BIBLE. Gee, according to Mr. Camping, the thief on the cross who confessed Jesus as Lord with his last breath was DEFINITELY NOT SAVED, despite what Jesus told him point blank.

Poor, poor Campingites…following a highly self-contradictory, narcissistic, delusional man, who is sincerely deceived by unseen forces, instead of having 100% Faith in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His completed work on Calvary for the atonement of sins.

The story in 1 Kings 18 about Elijah and the false prophets is symbolic of Mr. Camping and his prophesies. He called down fire from heaven for 1994 and the earth wasn’t burned up. He has called down fire again and I think that 2011 will again show the power of his timeline and teachings. It has no power.

I’ve studied many scriptures pertaining to the topic of false teachers, or those who claim they have special revelations or new information from God as Mr. Camping does, and I found a link that lists many verses on this subject.

I discern that Mr. Camping is not teaching sound doctrine in many areas, especially his date setting, salvation being a work of bibe study and listening to Family Radio, and also salvation not being guaranteed by God. All of these are highly suspicious doctrines. I now think that Camping may qualify as a “christian cult” by loose definition. I am aware that such cults exist, and Mr. Camping’s program may be one.

(2 Peter 2:1-3)
“there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”

You guys sure do write a lot. Excellent citing of John 3:18. It supports the first sentences of my last post.

OJ, the only time Jones referred to the Bible or Christian themes was to degrade it as being full of errors and discrepancies, stomping on it, and burning it to prove it was only a “paper idol.” He was an atheist, using the psychological power of the religious pulpit only as a format to preach Marxism and Communism, not religion, and certainly not Christianity.

About your charge of me lying, you quoted Jones as saying “better for us all to die here in Jonestown and go to Heaven to be with The Lord, than to face being captured by U.S. military forces in the jungles when they get here.” The record shows that he never said anything close to that. Yet you state it as a quote? I am curious as to why you are lying about this while accusing me of lying. It is not a matter of cleverness. Just facts. This is just as you are doing with Camping, inventing your own facts to conduct character assassination. Did you know that is a “trait” of a cult leader? Shall I assign a “disorder” diagnosis to you as well? Or is there a double-standard? Shall I come up with my own reason why you are inventing quotes and making false accusations?

As far as your question, I’ve no interest in entertaining mockery in the form of “…you Bible teacher and authority Harold Camping…”. I’ve refuted all of that “following Camping” nonsense in previous posts. Your continued refrain of “following” Camping rings hollow, and is no truer than calling you a Senecite because you agree with Senecus doctrinally. I’ll reply to a question if it’s asked civilly, thanks.

The accusations and attacks have been thoroughly addressed and refuted, although I fully expect it to continue in accordance with the Scriptures. It is not for a true believer to quarrel over the Gospel. God’s Word demands reverence and requires no defense from man.

When I see my fellow man mocking, protesting, and denying the prophesied and glorious return of Christ, I know it is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It only motivates me to strive harder to obey the command to proclaim the Gospel and sound the warning of His approach.

Once again, you are allorgizing just like Camping does, by taking what was said, in an attempt to make it say something else, more specifically, to make it say what you want it to say. You’ve done a fine diagnosis of your own inconsistencies and mocking which is of couse what Camping does when he feels threatened about his doctrine. Whenever anyone challanges Camping, like you, they are labeled as somone mocking them or lying about them. This is the typical defense of cult leaders and cult leader followers like youself. The “glorious return of Jesus Christ” was NEVER denied by me (so you lie about this as well) as I am a man of Faith in the Person of Jesus Christ who died on Calvary Hill nearly 2,000 years ago for the remissions of sins, and like all true believers in Jesus Chris know that their lives should be lived with the continuous expectation of His return at any moment, which is what the parable of the 10 virgins is all about. Jesus Christ will return at his 2nd advent just as the scriptures say, but it won’t be according to Mr. Camping’s quote, “WORK of developing the time line for the end of the world” as he has done and recently admitted again last week on the Open Forum, then he turns around and calls it “God’s Word” to make matters worse, specifically his 5/21/11 “date for salvation.” Mr. Camping’s WORK is that of making the bible say what he wants to say. So again, you don’t have YOUR points and facts straight, but then again, that makes sense since you follow a man who has a good track record of the same. It only motivates me to remain Faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, in particular about his WARNINGS of false teachers and false prohpets making predictions. Yes, you go right ahead and keep believing that a date for the rapture set by Mr. Camping, or any date for that fact, has the power to atone for your sins. The fact that you don’t “get this”, shows who you are. You state that “it is not for a true believer to quarrel over the Gospel.” WRONG again, but then again, how would you know??? The bible says the EXACT opposite. I am a defender of the Faith as the bible says I should be as a true believer, whereas, you are a defender of Mr. Camping’s false teachings based on all kinds of allorgorical applications mixed with numerology and subjective interpretation. You sure to write a lot. In regard to Jim Jones, He did say exactly what I quoted him as say, and it was broadcasted last week on the History Channel. I wrote down EXACTLY what JJ said, and posted here. Now, just because you didn’t see that program aired on Jim Jones, you ASSUME that he didn’t say that, but yet, the History Channel played a tape recording of his last moments before killed all those people, then himself, and his voice is very clearly heard saying what I posted that he said. You again, don’t have your facts straight, but then again, you don’t need to as you are in habit along with Mr. Camping, of taking what is being said and either disregard it altogether, or rearrange it the way you want it, then labeling it as FACT.

You claim at the end of your last post, that quote, “it motivates me to strive harder to obey the command to proclaim the Gospel and sound the warning of His approach.” Please tell us, what is YOUR definition of “the Gospel?” Also, when you “sound the warning” please tell us how you do that, what you say to people who need to hear “the warning?” Do you tell them to study their bible intensely like Mr. Camping, and to Cry out for Mercy to God (in a generic manner), or do you tell people to put their Faith in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I also can’t help to notice how others on the message board have asked you straight forward questions like Ruth Ann’s 10/14/09 post where she asked you, “what would a Christ centered church look like” and of course you never answered her, then I asked you a straigh forward question on 10/22/09 if you agree or disagree with Mr. Camping’s statement about “No Jews were saved between 1948 to 1988, as as a result they did not pass God’s 40 years of testing where none of them became believers in the Gospel, and as a result of that God regards the Jews the same as the rest of the unbelieving world, and they fit the parable of the Fig Tree being chopped down and cursed by Jesus Christ.” This is exactly what Mr. Camping said on one of his Open Forum radio programs, and still, you have not respnded to this straight forward question. Everyone here notices how you avoid responding to such direct straight forward questions that have nothing to do with quarrling as you put it. I see that there is no quarrel, and the Truth stands all on its own without leaning on any man such as your Mr. Camping’s Calandar Gospel. Why don’t you try for a change to come from behind all your religions fronts like you’re some kind of intellectual, and respond to simple questions. Try not to misquote anyone either as you continuously do.

Augustine,
You keep saying we are attacking, mocking, and protesting against God, when we are trying to warn people of a dangerous cult leader and false prophet. The BIBLE says that by their fruits we will know a false prophet. The fruit of Mr Camping’s teachings speak for themselves. Like I said already, someone I knew committed suicide in 1994, and others sold their houses and everything they had, and gave it to Family Radio, only to ask for it back after those dates passed. Is this good fruit? THE BIBLE IS CRYSTAL CLEAR that we should always be ready to die or for Christ to return. Obsessing over a FALSE DATE is NOT the Christian Life, and serves NO purpose in the Kingdom of God. We could all die tonight, so how does dwelling on something that WILL NOT happen in 2011 profit anyone? Sitting home listening to Family Radio and trying to convince people that the world will end in 2011 is NOT the Christian Life that Jesus talks about in the Bible. What do we do with all of the verses about interacting personally with other Christians, loving each other, helping each other, serving others. I heard Mr Camping on the radio and saw him on TV today in New Jersey. He is totally obsessed with these dates and constantly says over and over again that the churches are apostate. This is not a balanced Christian life, even if these facts we true, but they are not.

You keep says that we are attacking and character assassinating Mr Camping. But is not Mr Camping blaspheming God and attacking His people when he constantly attacks EVERY CHURCH and BILLIONS of CHRISTIANS that attend a church in THE WORLD!!!!!!!
He says the every single last gathering of people who call themselves a church in the WORLD is under the rule of Satan, and they are UNSAVED worshipping SATAN!!!!!! This means that ONLY people who agree with Harold Camping and sit home by themselves and listen to Family Radio, and believe in 2011, and believe that they can NOT know they are saved, and believe all churches are of Satan can be MAYBE Saved, if we cry out to God for mercy and HOPE we are saved!!! This is so blatantly and obviously total lunacy and Satanic Heresy of the worst kind!!!!

After decades of preaching extreme Hell and eternal Damnation AND CONDEMNING the Churches for NOT teaching enough Hell, God has allowed SATAN to blind Harold Camping and come up with the HERESY of annihilation like the JEHOVAH’s WITNESSES and OTHER CULTS. If this is not a clear indication of how deceived Mr Camping is, then woe unto those who agree with this. Annihilation means that the DEVIL himself, HITLER, and all unsaved simply are burned up, and receive NO PUNISHMENT for their sins in the after life. This is so blatantly false and obvious heresy, that if we believe this, then we must really ask ourselves if we are saved and trust God’s Word at all.

After 2011 passes, you will be utterly confounded, and confused, and angry, and depressed, because your faith was in a false date and in a false prophet cult leader. I would not be surprised if there are more suicides in 2011, like there was in 1994, after Harold Camping previous failed 1994 prophesy. Mr Camping is now 100% sure of these new dates, not just 99.9% sure like in 1994.

Augustine, and any other listeners of Family Radio, take a break from listening to Harold Camping every days for hours a day. Stay away from blogs like this, and just for a couple weeks pray to God, read ALL of his word, not only about the end times, and maybe you will start breaking out of the brainwashing and relentless indoctrination of Harold Camping.

As 2011 approaches, the listeners of Harold Camping will get more and more anxious, not really knowing if they are saved, not REALLY positive if the world will end. When May 22, 2011 comes and there is NO rapture, what a major shocking event this will be to them, and then the hangover for months, years, decades afterwards. Many will forsake God altogether, only the true believers will continue believeing in God, and humble themselves and admit they were wrong, and maybe attend a normal church again.

I have seen this happen to people leading up to 1994, and history is repeating itself in an even worse way.

“Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me.”

These are the words of Harold Camping:
“The rapture is May 21, 2011, end the end is Oct 21, 2011.”

These are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ talking to BELIEVERS, NOT talking to UNBELIEVERS.

Matt 24: Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour ***your Lord*** is coming.

Notice that Jesus says YOUR LORD, therefore he is NOT saying this to unbelievers like Harold Camping keeps saying. JESUS IS SAYING THAT TRUE BELIEVERS CAN NOT KNOW THE EXACT DAY THAT HE WILL RETURN. THIS IS PLAIN LANGUAGE, AND VERY CLEAR. WHAT HAPPENED WITH NOAH, WAS WHAT GOD DID WITH NOAH, BUT NOW JESUS HIMSELF SAYS WE CAN NOT KNOW THE EXACT DAY OF HIS RETURN.

WE ARE TO WATCH FOR SIGNS LIKE THE GOSPEL GOING IN THE WHOLE WORLD, AND ISRAEL BACK IN THEIR LAND, ETC. TO KNOW WE ARE CLOSE TO THE END. BUT WE CAN NOT KNOW THE EXACT DAY. THIS IS CRYSTAL CLEAR, EXCEPT TO HAROLD CAMPING AND OTHER DATE SETTERS, WHO TWIST CLEAR SCRIPTURES TO THEIR OWN DESTUCTION.

The whole of being a follower of Jesus is trusting 100% in God’s ways. Jesus set an example of total trust to the point of death. He never waivered in doing God’s will. Jesus laid out for us in His teachings, how God wants us to live to bring glory to His name. The question is, do we trust Jesus? Mr. Camping tells us that God wrote the Bible in a way to deceive people. I would never trust a god like that. My God is trustworthy and His ways are life.

I rarely listen to Camping’s broadcasts. I’m not a big fan of his communication style and manner.

To clarify my comments concerning mocking, I’m talking about examples such as questions being prefaced with “you Bible teacher and authority Harold Camping…” and “lol” and such nonsense. Hard to take seriously. If you look at those posts, I think you see what I mean. I said I would answer the question if asked with civility vice mockery.

Also, the continued invented charge that I trust in a date rather than the atonement of Christ alone for salvation is mockery. I refuted that nonsense in previous posts, but my refutation and my questions are ignored.

As far as Ruth Anne’s question about what a true church would look like, some things are clear: Christ is the head of the church and its supreme authority, (Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; Colossians 1:18). Second, the local church is to be autonomous, free from any external authority or control, with the right of self-government and freedom from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations (Titus 1:5). Third, the church is to be governed by spiritual leadership consisting of two main offices—elders and deacons. Man has come up with hundreds of versions of how to follow this format. But even those standards are disagreed with by man, and man has developed hundreds of versions of formats for this. So the question is a matter of what would perfect obedience to the Bible look like? I don’t know. We can’t do it since we are infected with sin.

That is the URL to the Jones transcript, which I have listened to as well. Find the quote you insist on attributing to Jones. For that matter, find any biblical inference in anything he said during that terrible event.

Ruth Ann, you stated “Camping tells us that God wrote the Bible in a way to deceive people. I would never trust a god like that.”

“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM”. -Matt 13:13-15.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. 1Cor2:14

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”. 2Thes2

Augustine,
You have brought up excellent verses that say that God indeed has written the Bible in a way, so that only his true people can understand it, and unbelievers can not understand it. I personally agree 100% with these verses.

Here is the problem. You are saying that we are the ones that can not see, and that we are unsaved, even though we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour. We believe we do have spiritual understanding, not in numbers and dates, but in KNOWING God and His Son, through His Spirit. We have spiritual undertanding of the nature of salvation, and Christ’s huge sacrifice on the Cross. Mr Camping focuses on his “special understanding” of a FALSE date, and says anyone who disagrees with this FALSE date is mocking God, and has their eyes blinded. I am saying just the opposite, I am saying that Mr Camping and those who agree with his heresies are the ones who are being blinded by pride, and the simple Christian who trusts in Christ alone are the ones who have their eyes open. Cults give their followers a FALSE sense of pride in KNOWLEDGE of PERIPHERAL things like numbers, dates, spiritual meanings, etc, and anyone who disagrees with them are blind, and are unsaved. TRUE CHRISTIANS focus first of all, on Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross for ours sins, and spend 99% of our time, focusing on God through Christ. People who listen to cult leaders are told to spend 99% focusing on the end times, churches are of satan, annihilation, “5 months of terror”, and other dynamic, exciting teachings, that eventually lead to disallusionment and dispair when these things are found to be false, or when the leader dies or loses his authority.

I happen to have confidence that I am a Child of God, and have His Spirit in me. I know Mr Camping teaches that we can not be confident we are saved, but only “Hope” we are saved, but the Bible is clear, in Romans 8 and other passages, that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our Spirit that we are saved. No one can tell anyone else wheter they are saved or not, that is between them and God. Mr Camping says emphatically if you go to a church, or do not believe in 2011, or believe all of his teachings then you are NOT saved. Here is what the Bible teaches.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Acts 16:30 “……Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…..”

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

These verses are the heart of the Gospel of Christ, that salvation only comes by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and God drawing us to Himself, and allowing us to believe in Him, and confess him. When God fills us with His Spirit, then WE CAN ABSOLUTELY KNOW WE ARE SAVED. IF WE CAN NOT KNOW WE ARE SAVED, WHAT IS THE POINT OF BEING A CHRISTIAN. THIS IS LIKE SOMEONE WHO IS IN THE ARMY, AND NOT KNOWING WHETHER THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THE UNITED STATES, OR FIGHTING FOR AL QUAEDA WITH OSAMA BIN LADIN.

Can you understand how the verses you brought up are used by Mr Camping incorrectly? He constanly repeats that the “churches” are the enemy, and those who attend a church are of satan.

Here is an analogy: Say that I think I am the only True American in the United States. I keep repeating that whether you are Republican, Democratic, or independent, or don’t even care, you are not a True American, only if you follow my political views. Then people start following me and we all keep repeating to ourselves that the United States is apostate, and we should not be fighting in Iraq

Augustine,
You have brought up excellent verses that say that God indeed has written the Bible in a way, so that only his true people can understand it, and unbelievers can not understand it. I personally agree 100% with these verses.

Here is the problem. You are saying that we are the ones that can not see, and that we are unsaved, even though we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour. We believe we do have spiritual understanding, not in numbers and dates, but in KNOWING God and His Son, through His Spirit. We have spiritual undertanding of the nature of salvation, and Christ’s huge sacrifice on the Cross. Mr Camping focuses on his “special understanding” of a FALSE date, and says anyone who disagrees with this FALSE date is mocking God, and has their eyes blinded. I am saying just the opposite, I am saying that Mr Camping and those who agree with his heresies are the ones who are being blinded by pride, and the simple Christian who trusts in Christ alone are the ones who have their eyes open. Cults give their followers a FALSE sense of pride in KNOWLEDGE of PERIPHERAL things like numbers, dates, spiritual meanings, etc, and anyone who disagrees with them are blind, and are unsaved. TRUE CHRISTIANS focus first of all, on Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross for ours sins, and spend 99% of our time, focusing on God through Christ. People who listen to cult leaders are told to spend 99% focusing on the end times, churches are of satan, annihilation, “5 months of terror”, and other dynamic, exciting teachings, that eventually lead to disallusionment and dispair when these things are found to be false, or when the leader dies or loses his authority.

I happen to have confidence that I am a Child of God, and have His Spirit in me. I know Mr Camping teaches that we can not be confident we are saved, but only “Hope” we are saved, but the Bible is clear, in Romans 8 and other passages, that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our Spirit that we are saved. No one can tell anyone else wheter they are saved or not, that is between them and God. Mr Camping says emphatically if you go to a church, or do not believe in 2011, or believe all of his teachings then you are NOT saved. Here is what the Bible teaches.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Acts 16:30 “……Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…..”

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

These verses are the heart of the Gospel of Christ, that salvation only comes by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and God drawing us to Himself, and allowing us to believe in Him, and confess him. When God fills us with His Spirit, then WE CAN ABSOLUTELY KNOW WE ARE SAVED. IF WE CAN NOT KNOW WE ARE SAVED, WHAT IS THE POINT OF BEING A CHRISTIAN. THIS IS LIKE SOMEONE WHO IS IN THE ARMY, AND NOT KNOWING WHETHER THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THE UNITED STATES, OR FIGHTING FOR AL QUAEDA WITH OSAMA BIN LADIN.

Can you understand how the verses you brought up are used by Mr Camping incorrectly? He constanly repeats that the “churches” are the enemy, and those who attend a church are of satan.

Here is an analogy: Say that I think I am the only True American in the United States. I keep repeating that whether you are Republican, Democratic, or independent, or don’t even care, you are not a True American, only if you follow my political views. Then people start following me and we all keep repeating to ourselves that the United States is apostate, and we should not be fighting in Iraq, we should not have such high taxes, we should allow prayer in school, etc. I keep repeating that the United States and the government is apostate, and unless you follow my views, you are not a True American. After I keep repeating this over and over again to my followers, and we read the Declaration of Indepence, and other documents that our founding fathers wrote, we conclude that EVERYONE in the United States is apostate unless you follow my PURE POLITICAL views of the founding father’s vision. We study over and over again the DECLARATION OF INDEPENCE, and keep repeating that we should have more freedom, less taxes, no war, etc. And we convinced ourselves that we ARE THE TRUE AMERICANS, and anyone who disagrees with us is not an AMERICAN at all.

When the requirement for being an AMERICAN is not if you agree with me, but if you live in AMERICA and have become a CITIZEN of AMERICA.

Can you see the analogy? This is what cults do. There is no room for disagreement on anything, everything is black and white.

MR Camping says you must agree with all of his heresies to be saved. The Bible says we can disagree on certain periperal matters, and STILL BE SAVED.

Read Romans 14, there is clearly indicates that we can disagree on certain things like what we eat or drink, or what day is special for us, and BOTH ARE CORRECT, and justified before God.

Do you understand what we are trying to say?

We should not attack each other on this blog site.

I Cor 13, says that if we have all knowledge and understand all mysteries and have not love, WE ARE NOTHING. Unfortunately, Mr Camping does NOT have love towards those who disagree with him. He tells them they are unsaved and worshipping Satan if they disagree with them. this is a fact, I hear it on the Open Forum all the time. God is Blinding Mr Camping because of his pride and taking away the little truth he had. For example Camping used to teach faithfully the doctrine of eternal punishment, but since he was prideful in many other doctrines, God had blinded him, and now Mr Camping teaches the heresy of Annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach.

So when you say that we are the ones that are being blinded and can not see, we disagree with Mr Camping on this. He is the one being blinded and those who agree with his teachings. What Ruth Ann was saying is that God would not deceive his own people who are earnestly seeking Him, and humbling themselves before Him. God does blind those who are prideful in their Bible knowledge, or unsaved people who have no regard for God or the Bible.

In reference to Acts 16:30, it seems that to believe on Christ in order to be saved is a work. When we compare Scripture, it seems clear to me that we believe on Christ as a result of having become saved. That being said, many claim belief on Christ, but it is their personal version of “belief”, not the Holy Spirit’s version. They define belief on their own terms. That’s why many will be stunned when the rapture occurs. Now, I’m not going to pass judgment on anyone. It is sometimes hard to have this discussion without appearing to pass judgment.

I’m not entirely in agreement with your analogy because the definition of a “True American” is in the eye of the beholder. The definition and standards that God sets that establishes a saved person by His grace and providence, is truly His only. I think based on this principle is why Camping says only God can truly know.

When the Bible says God’s spirit witnesses with ours that we are saved, you have many who define that for themselves. Some argue with me that it means you will speak in tongues, and if you don’t, you are not saved. Some say it means having prophetic dreams and visions from God. So again, people will define what it means for themselves. That’s why we have to allow the Bible to interpret and define its own terms and God’s standards. To interpret it for ourselves is to add to the WOrd and invent man’s doctrine.

I gave that last reply before I read your follow up. I agree on disagreeing. I’ve mentioned a few times that I disagree with Camping on some Scriptural issues. I told Senecus we agree on some things and disagree on others. No problem there.

Again, I’m not trying to pass judgement. There are several posts by others on here for every one of mine. Look at how many judgments there are on my mental health, my own trust in Christ, and my character. One asked that my posts be censored. One said he hoped I end up in hell. I’m being called a liar, a heretic, brainwashed, etc. I’m just here to proclaim the Gospel. I’m not here to give character assessments of people I don’t know, or to be an internet tough guy behind an anonymous name. I’m not here to pick a fight. My message has been consistent. If this is what God’s Word brings out in people, so be it. The Bible tells us to expect it, especially as we sound the warning of His approach. What can I say.

Where does it say in the Bible that it is impossible to please God? Wasn’t the discourse by Stephen about people who pleased God?

Acts 7 45Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

46WHO FOUND FAVOUR BEFORE GOD, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

If you believe that we can’t do anything to please God, why did God send Jesus to show us the way? Why does God tell us over and over to seek Him? Why would He tell us that if it is impossible for anyone to do it? I get weary of hearing that we can’t do anything to please God, but man has a whole list of things that we can do to please man. Why is it that we are willing to do the things that please man and not the things that please God?

I don’t know if you saw my post from 10/22/09, but let me re-create part of it here to look at again, as I was an eye-witness of what Mr. Camping said LIVE on the air during his daily Open Forum radio program.

Look closely at this quote:

10/22/09 @6:36pm to 6:40pm Pacific Time.

Camping:

“If anyone says that they confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or claims to have Faith in Christ for Salvation, IT ABSOLUTELY SHOWS THAT THEY ARE NOT SAVED.”

Now, if there is anyone here that thinks that I’m “lying” or misquoting people such as Augustine who says this frequently about me, simply call in to the Open Forum program and ask Mr. Camping the same question for yourself and see what he tells you.

Mr. Camping’s reason for teaching this kind of herisy? He of course says that all the churches are apostate and that this scripture, and others like it, teach no such thing.

So what we have here, is Mr. Camping’s famous complex allorgorical and subjective personal interpretation of reading into plainly stated scriptures looking for a deeper meaning which he then assigns as quote, “The Truth of God’s Word”, which is then transformed into “accurate” or “tested” bible doctrine according to him.

So in other words, Salvation comes by an elaborate hunt for deeper meaning of scriptures that what is otherwise plain to understand, and this process also ignores what Jesus Himself said regarding that those who wish to follow him should have “faith of a child.”

i.e. And he (Jesus)said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:3).

As we all know who are being honest, little children take at face value what their parent(s) tells them as being fact or truth, they don’t get into any deep analysis of what the parent says to them as having to sort out HIDDEN OR COMPLEX MEANINGS like Mr. Camping does with all his twisting of scriptures combined with his famous allorgorization mixed with numerology, this is how he arrives at these kind of heresies.

Let me ask Augustine this:

Did the THIEF ON THE CROSS get into heaven a different way than everyone else after him to this very day?, did he “read his bible” before he blead to death on the cross, or did Jesus recite the bible to him, because He being God, certainly would have known what was going to be written in the bible in the future?, did he openly state that he was looking for the day of Jesus Christ’s return in the future?; was Family Radio and Mr. Camping around when the thief died on the cross and he had a chance to listen to Mr. Campings doctrine?; did he “cry out to God for mercy?, did he have any time for good works?,

According to Mr. Camping, the thief on the cross would have needed to do all these things to “quality” for possible salvation, and the one thing that certainly disqualified him from Salvation according to Mr. Camping, was his CONFESSION OF JESUS CHRIST AS LORD, according to Mr. Campings teachings. We know that that the thief on the cross did in fact confess Jesus Christ as Lord and the scripture bare out this FACT that he was saved by his soley based on his confession by referring to Jesus as “Lord” when God directly opened his understanding so that he could discern what he needed to do just before his last breath to get his life right with God, but yet, in his unregenerated condition only moments earlier while on the cross, he was cursing Jesus openly with the other dying thief on the cross.

So with this said, how would Mr. Camping’s incredible statement about confession of Jesus Christ prove that a person is, “ASOLUTELY NOT SAVED?” Again, this alone here should CLEARLY show who he is.

This entire subject matter of Mr. Camping’s scripture twisting is like something right out of a bad science fiction movie, and I feel truly sad for all those who he is leading astray who tryly desire to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, which Mr. Camping will tell is not guaranteed.

If Yes… What do you base your salvation on?
If No…. How do you bemome saved?
If Maybe… Then what do you do?

If you are not sure you are saved, because we can not know if we are one of God’s elect, then what do we do.

I saw some of Camping’s listeners on Yahoo Latter Rain blog site say that if the rapture occurs, and they are not taken, then they will commit suicide, because it is better to die than to go through the “5 months of terror”.

Can you see my point? If we can not know we are God’s elect, and only “hope” we are saved as Mr Camping teaches, we are of all men most miserable.

I don’t think I’ve accused you of misquoting. That was someone else, I think. Presenting a sound byte though, is the same as trying to prove a doctrine via one verse. What Camping says is that if you say that you are saved BECAUSE you are trusting in the fact that you SAID Christ is your savior, then you are trusting in the work that you did for salvation. Yes, he says it many times in many ways, and if you snatch one sentence, you can make it sound like he is saying what you said, but knowing his teachings from the Bible and from his writings, that is clearly not the case.

The thief on the cross was saved because he was elect, obviously. God planned his life to be saved very near his death, because that is when he was exposed to the Word of God by hearing Christ Himself. You keep saying that I think that believing the date gets you saved. Don’t know where you are getting that. God can save a little baby, even one in the womb, as John the Baptist was, by bringing them under the hearing of the Word. Camping states this often. You are getting this confused with when Camping says that if one is denying the Word, including the warning of the end, that is evidence they are not saved. I don’t entirely agree with him on that statement. Someone can already have been saved, but God has not brought them to that truth yet, I think.

I don’t think you are studying your subject thorougly. That is not a wise crack at you. What I mean is I think in your haste to find fault with Camping, you don’t have the correct understanding of the details of what he says the Bible teaches, agree or not.

“Yes, Augustine, that is correct, the thief on the cross was INDEED saved because he was among the “ELECT” just like anyone else who becomes saved, which is the EXACT reason why his understanding about the saving power and identity of Jesus Christ was opened to him by God the Father just moments before his death SO THAT HE MAY CONFESS JESUS CHRIST AS LORD FOR THE REMISSION OF HIS SINS (which is the work of God the Holy Spirit-Rom 9:16), whereas the other thief apparently remained unrepentant because he had not made such a confession of faith.

Camping of course says VERY CLEARLY that “ANYONE (AGAIN ANYONE) who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, or claims to have Faith in Christ for Salvation, it absolutely shows that they are NOT saved.” THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID JUST LAST WEEK LIVE ON THE OPEN FORUM RADIO PROGRAM.

So you see, I’m VERY CLEAR about what Mr. Camping teaches, he teaches all kinds of herisy and twisted doctrine, he teaches a WORKS doctrine although he says that he doesn’t (i.e. atonement for sins by all of the following: a)focusing on a specific date for the rapture; b)demonstrating an intense desire to study the bible which of couse is intrinsically subjective in nature; c)listening to Family Radio; d) crying out to God (in a generic manner) for mercy; and not only that, he teaches that NO ONE can be certain of their salvation anyway, so in this, he implies that it is possible for someone to be in an intimate relationship with someone (God in this instance), AND NOT KNOW ABOUT IT. It’s the same as saying that a man and woman can be married to each other as husband and wife (BECOMING ONE), and NEITHER OF THEM KNOWS ABOUT IT, NEITHER ONE OF THEM ARE SECURE IN THEIR MARRIAGE UNION, BUT YET, WE KNOW THAT MARRIAGE IS GOD ORDAINED, IT’S ABOUT POSSESSION, IT’S ABOUT DEEP INTIMACY AND IT DETERMINES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IF SOMEONE IS LIVING IN SIN OR NOT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES.

So you see, I’m VERY CLEAR about ALL of Mr. Camping’s unbiblical teachings, so apparently you need to have correct understanding of all the details of what he says about the bible. I’m certain you are not studying your subject thoroughly.

The Bible clearly teaches election, and salvation by grace alone. The Bible also teaches that whoesever calls on the name of the Lord earnestly can be saved, and know they are saved. So with our finite minds there seems to be a contraction, right? What if someone who calls on God to save them is not one of God’s elect? My answer is that election is God’s business. Our reponsibility is to obey God’s command to believe on His Son for forgiveness of our sins. This is a command to the entire Human Race. Of course, the Bible says that there is no one that will seek God? So how do we reconcile this? I believe it is quite simple. Those who truly come to God, and believe in their heart that Christ is their Savior have be drawn by God. We have these two verses in the Bible, which is God’s word, we can not ignore one verse, and focus only on the other.

Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse is part of God’s word, and it is a promise that whoever earnest calls upon God for salvation with an earnest heart, SHALL BE SAVED, NOT MAYBE, NOT HOPE YOU ARE SAVED.

The second verse says that no one IS ABLE to come to GOD unless, GOD draws.

To reconcile these verses is very simple. All those who earnest come to God and truly ask for Salvation, have been predestined and drawn by God. This is not a new concept. This has been taught clearly by the Reformers in the 1600s. Hyper-Calvanists like Mr Camping, go to the extreme like the Dutch Reformed Church (I believe Mr Camping grew up in Dutch Reformed Church?). They believe we can not know if we are one of God’s elect, but must whip and beat ourselves, and Hope we are saved. This becomes a WORK, without realizing it!!!!!!

Salvation is simple, we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, nothing else. YES, BELIEVING IS A WORK!!!!!! So God gives us the gift of faith. But we still must obey his command to believe, and NOT HOPE WE ARE SAVED!!!!!

Now, that’s accurate bible, that’s God breathed and balanced. You brought out the exact scriptures that fully support the point you have been making. I hope everyone is listening and paying close attention.

Yes, believing in Christ is a work, but it is a work that is NOT of human origin, it is the Work of God the Holy Spirit just as you indicated, it is God who caused or imparted the required revelation directly from Heaven that an unsaved person may become saved, through their God Inspired, God Motivated, God Directed personal confession of Faith, which is an act of God that again, inspired the person’s belief that they did not previously have before this event occurred in their life. It explains how the doctrine of the “elect” and “salvation by grace” come together. Then afterwards, all “believing” in a christian’s life gives rise to God mediated works of Faith as well, none of which has anything to do with a believer’s “security” in their salvation, but the works of Faith are all about eternal rewards which is bible as well.

Now, Mr. Camping will try to tell people that any WORK, including confession of Jesus Christ shows that a person is NOT saved, when the reality is, that WORK of confession Jesus Christ as Lord is God inspired, God mediated, God drawn just as you said, it is not of ourselves so that no one can boast, and these are the very elements of salvation that Mr. Camping has distorted and twisted, then he turns right around and gives his own personal requirements for salvation all of which the end result according to him is NOT guaranteed. Camping’s salvation plan is a slight of hand, hocus pocus gospel which is calandar based, leading to no where but confusion and despair, it is a work of the Devil.

The desciples ask Him (Jesus) “What must we do to be doing the Works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the WORK of God, that you believe in Him (speaking of himself) whom He (God the Father) has sent.” John 6:28-29.

Mr. Camping says that this is NOT so, it is a work and therefore such a person is not saved, then he goes about giving his deceived followers an entire list of WORKS that they must do according to him, which as we all know includes listening to Family Radio, not going to church, having an “intense desire to study the bible”, faith in the date 5/21/11 for atonement of sins, etc.

I’ve analyzed Mr. Camping’s teaching in great detail over the past couple of weeks, and here’s what my final analysis is on him. I’ll try to state it as plainly and simplistically as I possibly can.

Mr. Camping is a mystic and numerologist. He was in the Chruch many years ago and at one time I believe that he did stick to sound﻿ doctrine, but for some reason he rebelled against his own Church authorities that according to the Bible, are God ordained. He then departed from Bible Truth and became deceived by the Devil due to his rebellious ways and fell, similar to how Satan fell due to his rebellion. Camping then decided to create his own gospel to get back at those in his former Church leadership who asked him to leave due to their awareness that he was beginning to venture into false teachings. Camping continued to re-intrepret the bible through his application of mathematics, numerology, and allorgory that seems to most that he’s talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when in reality, his teachings are NOT Christian, they are mystical and even worse, his teaching are counterfit. I just ask God to have mercy on his soul and to protect those from going to their destruction that are being mislead by him and you know who.

Your post says it all, it’s to the point and it includes much of Camping’s history that people need to know, as to what ended up happening to him and why.
I never thought of it in the terms you put it, about him being a “mystic”, but now that you mentioned it, I can see that dimension of him as well, as looked up the term “mystic” and by definition, it has to do with one who has “occult or mysterious character”, one who “developes mystic formulas” which he does with all his date setting with the aid of his practice of numerology, one who claims to “have divine insights that no one else has” he does this too by claiming that he has insight into the Bible scriptures that NO Churches have or ever had, as he claims that all churches are apostate. All of these definitions of “mystic” fit Mr. Camping to the “T”. So yes, you are correct about the “mystic” dimension of his personality, and you are certainly correct about him being a “numerologist.” I believe that these very things that he clearly practices and applies to scriptures are the EXACT cause of his former Church leadership excommunicating him for his developing hersies and teaching them to others.

Here is a good critique via a letter written to Mr. Camping by Walt Hibbard who raised several core matters about Mr. Camping’s doctrinal errors, and he says some very interesting things in his letter of discussion directed to Mr. Camping

I wrote to you in early January of this year challenging you to re-examine your ministry to see if it conformed to the Word of God. I asked for a response, but you did not see fit to acknowledge my letter, nor did you respond to the nine questions that I asked you. Now I am writing again as I continue to hear a false message on Family Radio, especially on the Open Forum program and other Bible teaching broadcasts that you host.

In my first letter, I tried to show that your basic interpretative methodology was faulty and did not honor the “imminency” verses in the New Testament, consequently resulting in a distorted message for today. In this, my second letter, I shall try to be more direct. I will show numerous instances where your interpretations actually contradict the words of our Lord Jesus and His inspired Apostles.

FIRST, you have stated many times that we are TODAY in the great tribulation described in Matt. 24 and elsewhere. Yet Jesus, referring to the events mentioned in this chapter, tells His listeners that “This generation shall not pass, till all those things be fulfilled” (vs. 34). The term “this generation” refers to the people living at the same time as Jesus, namely, His contemporaries. A study of nearly 30 instances where the Greek word “genea” is used in the Gospels establishes this definition. Luke also answers this question in 21:22, “For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” This is in the context of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. History tells us that the Roman armies under Titus laid siege to Jerusalem and its Temple at the end of Jesus’ generation, from AD 66-70. This time in Jewish history marked the end of the Old Covenant age and the ushering in of the New Covenant age.

Since you are teaching that Matt. 24 is being at least partially fulfilled in the year 2002, compared to Jesus saying it would all be fulfilled in the first century, we obviously have a contradiction here! I choose to believe the words of Jesus Christ and reject the false teaching of Harold Camping.

SECOND, you are teaching that Matt. 24:2, speaking of “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down,” refers to the “stones of the Temple (the church).” You further state that “This means that God is declaring that it is His intention that there is not to be any churches left to represent God’s kingdom.”

By no means is this what the Bible teaches, Mr. Camping. Matt. 24 is referring to the STONES OF THE TEMPLE. The parallel passage in Mark 13:1-2 says, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of STONES and what BUILDINGS ARE HERE! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” It is sufficiently clear that Jesus is talking about the literal stones of the literal Temple in Jerusalem in the first century, not about individual churches that make up the body of believers in the 21st century.

Therefore, Mr. Camping, you have no biblical authority to spiritualize this clearly historical situation and then apply it to the church today. The entire passage is not talking about the church in the 21st century. Again, I prefer to believe what Jesus clearly taught His disciples, namely, that the Jewish Temple would be leveled to the ground within the lifetime of those people He was speaking to. And of course, we know from historical records that the Temple was burned and destroyed in AD 70. Jesus’ prediction was fulfilled in the first century. The Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant was fully ushered in.

THIRD, in 2 Thess. 2 you teach that “the man of sin will take his seat in the temple of God and will be worshiped as God. The man of sin can only be Satan.” This is a highly questionable interpretation, but even worse than that, you are taking this event out of its first century context. The temple of God in the first century was the Temple in Jerusalem, not the churches existing in the world today.

You then speak of the “restrainer” in 2 Thess. 2:7 as the Holy Spirit who will be “taken out of the way.” You teach that this means that “obviously, the only possibility is that the Holy Spirit would be taken from the midst of the churches and congregations.” You then conclude that “He will remove Himself from the congregations and denominations that had become a part of the temple of God” as referring to the Holy Spirit abandoning the institutional church today.

This is a real stretch here! As a result, you say that Satan rules in the churches and congregations. You have even gone so far as to say that Satan has been granted his wish, referencing Isa. 14, as he sits in the temple as described in 2 Thess. 2:4, which you interpret to be the church today. Nonsense! The 2 Thess. 2 fulfillment took place in the first century in the earthly Temple that stood in Jerusalem, not in the 21st century church. You are taking this passage completely out of context. Never forget the words of Jesus where He told Peter that “I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Do these words of Jesus allow for the Holy Spirit’s departure and Satan’s take-over of the church today? Certainly not! Once again, I prefer to believe Jesus rather than Harold Camping. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of more and more of His people to see the error of this teaching.

FOURTH, the church offices of elder and deacon were established in the Book of Acts in order to share the workload with the Apostles. Acts 15 and 1 Cor. 5 clearly establish the need for the elders to exercise church discipline over offending Christians who were in the local churches. Yet you would have us believe that the day has come where “pastors are no longer pastors, elders are no longer elders, deacons are no longer deacons.” You are calling upon ordained church officers to step down from their positions and thus destroy the structure of the organized church. This is causing a heartbreaking situation! Only chaos will result!

Mr. Camping, you have no scriptural authority for teaching this! It is an offense against every true Christian today. It is especially an offense against those chosen servants of Christ who are laboring faithfully and true to the Gospel message. Nowhere in the New Testament are pastors asked to step down except where the church courts have exercised discipline against unfaithfulness. You are even teaching that faithful pastors should resign and you are doing this under the pretext that this is what the Bible requires. This is false teaching, pure and simple!

FIFTH, you are urging Christian people to leave their churches, EVEN churches that are true to the Scriptures, because, after all, “there is not to be left one stone upon another.” WORLD magazine in a recent issue reports that over 100 Reformed churches have lost members due to your teaching and influence.

Jesus Christ today is building His church. Harold Camping is doing his best to destroy Christ’s church. This is shameful! I urge you to repent of this sin!

SIXTH, on your Open Forum program you invite people to challenge your views by simply calling in and showing you the applicable Scripture texts. Many people have done exactly this, but you always counter these arguments by stating that your callers have not studied their Bibles carefully enough or that they have adopted some church tradition rather than the Bible alone. You never admit that your bizarre interpretations could be wrong, even when challenged. You alone are always right, using your “mute button” freely to muzzle the callers.

It is a serious matter to pretend that your interpretations are the Bible’s teachings in areas of Bible prophecy. Someone has said that by taking the Scripture out of context one can prove just about anything they wish to. How true! The Open Forum is a daily example of muddled and confused teaching that does just that.

SEVENTH, just because you derive your odd interpretations from the Bible does not mean that this is what the Bible actually teaches. Honest principles of interpretation always need to be applied to every text in the Bible. Some of the language is poetic, some historical, some metaphorical, some apocalyptic, and some simply plain propositional statements. You often do not recognize this distinction. Instead, you find it necessary to extract meanings relating to salvation from such texts as the historical accounts of Paul’s shipwreck in Acts 27. This often confuses the INTERPRETATION of a passage with the APPLICATION of it to our lives. Sound Bible scholars understand that each passage has only ONE interpretation but MANY applications. Was it not one of the Reformers, perhaps John Owen, who said, “If the Scripture has more than one interpretation, it has no interpretation at all”? Christianity was framed in historical settings and has to be understood as such. Your teaching often borders on the allegorical without Scriptural justification.

EIGHTH, you are teaching that God has removed the Holy Spirit from the churches, even from churches that hold faithfully to the Word of God, and have removed the “high places” from their midst. This implies that God is allowing Satan to rule even in the sound Bible believing churches today, and no one can be saved in these churches today. Only Family Radio and a few other ministries are being used by God today to evangelize the world, according to your teaching.

Mr. Camping, you have no authority to make statements like these! Jesus taught His disciples in Matt. 18:20, “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Meeting in His Name surely includes honoring His Word, observing the sacraments, and exercising church discipline. Many of these churches are seeking to honor our Sovereign God by applying Scriptural principles to every area of worship and teaching. To suggest that God’s Holy Spirit is not working in these churches and that no souls are being saved is rank presumption and most dishonoring to our Lord Jesus Christ. You are seeking to destroy even the good churches, Mr. Camping, but you will not succeed. Instead, these good churches will become stronger as a result of losing members who are “carried about with every wind of doctrine.”(Eph. 4:14)

NINTH, you have stated that “the era of the church has come to an end.” Therefore, true believers are to leave their churches and form house fellowships, with no pastors, elders or deacons. You are applying Matt. 24:16 from the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus urges His people who are in Judea to “flee into the mountains.” You are teaching that Judea refers to the church and that believers in churches today are to abandon their churches and form house fellowships. Taken in context, Jesus was warning the believers in Judea when they “see the abomination of desolation stand …in the holy place” to flee to the mountainous region of Pella. Historians record that these believers obeyed Jesus and did exactly what He said. This has NOTHING to do with the 21st century church. You are spiritualizing these plain language commands of Jesus, wrenching them out of context, and applying them to the church today. Would anyone listening to Jesus’ words at the Mount of Olives ever dream that He was speaking of local churches 2000 years into the future? Of course not! Rather, He was addressing His audience about the imminent judgment that was fast approaching where the city of Jerusalem and its Temple would be burned and destroyed. It was to be the end of the Jewish world of that first century.

It is criminal to teach God’s people to leave their churches at a time when, now more than ever, church attendance has dropped off and the moral climate of our nation has become a virtual cesspool. People need to gather regularly for worship in churches where the true Gospel is preached. They need to hear and obey the Gospel from the lips of dedicated, God-honoring preachers, who deliver the soul-saving message that alone is able to save His people from hell for eternity. Mr. Camping, you are deceiving God’s sheep with your dangerous teaching. Surely God’s Spirit is grieved to witness this barrage of bad news coming from Family Radio day after day!

TENTH, I have not heard anyone accuse you of insincerity or intentionally leading God’s people astray. I do not question for a moment that you are sincere and believe that the Bible actually teaches the things you are saying. So allow me to urge you to call upon God to remove the blindness from your eyes so that you can clearly see what the Scriptures are REALLY teaching. Ask Him to grant you His gift of repentance and then seek to undo all the damage you have done to His church.

I have heard you admit several times when challenged by callers on the Open Forum that you may be almost alone in calling for Christians to leave their churches. Yet this does not apparently bother you. Instead you defend this “loner mentality” by asserting that we can not possibly know why God has decided to reveal truth to only a few people, perhaps only one, instead of to the entire church. Of course we know that God is sovereign and can do anything He pleases. But did it ever occur to you that you may be badly DECEIVED and in need of repentance?

If you actually are self-deceived, as many of us believe, and are bearing a false witness to the world of listeners to Family Radio, will not God hold you accountable? Many of God’s people are warning you, both through the Open Forum program as they call in, and through other means such as letters and emails. Would you not want to heed these warnings and EXAMINE WHAT YOU ARE TEACHING compared to what the Bible teaches as it is interpreted honestly, in context, and with a humble spirit?

CONCLUSION: Mr. Camping, it is distressing beyond what words can express to have to write this kind of letter to you. But I can’t sit idly by, day after day, and hear the beautiful Christian music and helpful programs on Family Radio during most of the day, only to have the prime-time hours devoted to false teaching for up to two hours each evening! I must warn you to re-consider your bizarre interpretative methodology that has caused you to turn against Christ’s church. The 1994? fiasco, in connection with the book that you wrote at that time, publicly marked you as an unreliable Bible teacher. This is all the more reason to REPENT before you do any more damage to the church than what you have already done. But God does surely forgive sin when true repentance is manifested. This should be an encouragement to all of us!

Will you grant me the courtesy of at least acknowledging this letter, and hopefully responding to the ten areas of concern that are being addressed? I thank you in advance for carefully studying this letter written by another Christian brother who has a concern for the TRUTH of God’s Word and His glory.

Hello Don ,welcome. Wade had asked this also. Will it occur? Sure,its possible-when? Only the Lord knows-the greater question is,are you ready to meet the Lord regardless of what initiates that event?
Things to ponder,feel free to carry on…..

I’ve been doing some studying of my own, and came across several sources of information that deal with the topic of “Christian Cults” and their common characteristics, which I have assembled here for your and everyone’s review. It’s absolutely amazing that in my study of this subject from various sources, and there are many on the Internet, it’s almost as if all the authors were speaking about Mr. Camping’s theology based on what I know about him, although they were all providing discussion in overall terms of what cults teach and the behavior of cult leaders and organizations, etc. As you read throught these, you’ll immediately see Mr. Camping’s practices in bible interpretation and his various doctrinal claims. Again, I have taken a synthesis of several authors that have done an excellent job of covering this vast topic.

Here it is:

#1 Rejection of Orthodox Christianity

The classic characteristic of most religions “christian” cults is a frontal attack on Orthodox Christianity! First and foremost, they argue that the “Church” has departed from what they refer to as the “True Faith.” In order to accomplish this, cult leaders, if christian based, typically allegorize bible scriptures in a systematic manner whereby they synthesize doctrine through the subjective application of their personal interpretations, then claim that their “understanding of scriptures” or pronouncement of “doctrine” is a result of their religious credentials and/or mastery of the bible, and thereby proclaim that their interpretations are the only valid ones, and/or are “God’s Word.” (SOUND FAMILIAR?)

#2 Double Talk

Another feature of cults is that they say one thing publicly, but internally among themselves, they believe something totally different. For example, many cultic churches call themselves “Christians” when in fact they deny the fundamentals of the biblical faith. The Mormon Church is an example of this kind of “double talk.” The First Article of Faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints reads, “We believe in God’s Son, Jesus Christ.” This gives most individuals the impression that Mormons are “Christians” since they believe in Jesus Christ. However, when you examine the semantics of what they mean by “Jesus Christ”, you’ll soon discover they are far removed from Orthodox Christianity. For example, Mormons claim that Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers, and that Lucifer became Satan when Jehovah God decided to give the rulership and authority over the Earth to Jesus instead of him, and when this occurred, Lucifer openly rebelled against Jehovah God who as a result, changed Lucifer’s name to Satan and excommunicated him from Heaven along with a third of the angels that followed him. Nevertheless, the impression the Mormon Church gives from their theological position is that they are a Christian denomination. One therefore, must be on the alert for organizations that claim they are “Christians” but whose internal teachings disagree with fundamental scripture teachings.

#3 Non Biblical Teachings And Doctrinal Errors

Another characteristic of ALL cults is either an inadequate view, or an outright denial of the fundamentals of Christian Faith, especially doctrines surrounding the Deity of Christ and God’s salvation plan by Faith alone independent of any works. If questioned about any of these, cult groups will typically claim that they do not deny these critical doctrines, but with closer examination, you’ll find that they do NOT adhere to these fundamentals of Orthodox Christian views. (SOUND FAMILIAR?) i.e. Camping claims that NO WORK can get anyone saved, but then he turns right around and gives an entire laundry list of things (WORKS) that everyone needs to do in order to “quality for salvation”, such as A)listen to Family Radio; B) “cry out to God (in a generic manner) asking continuously for mercy as often as possible, day and night” he even once said on the Open Forum; C) demonstrate an “intense desire to study the bible” which of course is 100% subjective in nature; D) focus on a future date, currently 5/21/11, for the atonement of your sins and getting ready for the Rapture, and many others, too many to list.

#4 Constantly Changing or Modifying Theology

Cult organization doctrines are typically in a continual state of flux or change, and have no sure foundation on which to anchor doctrinal truths. Followers of a particular cult learn various doctrines only to find out that the doctrine later has been changed or was contradicted by the cult leaders “further revelation” that they claim comes from God and can be found in the bible with deeper study. Most cults will deny this, with the possible exception of the Unification Church. Recently they admitted their theology was in a state of flux. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example, used to believe vaccinations were sinful. The Mormon Church is equally guilty of changing doctrine. The most famous is its belief and practice, later prohibited, of polygamy. (SOUND FAMILIAR? SUCH AS IN MR. CAMPING’S 1994? date setting for the Rapture and End of the World, which has since then been up-dated currently to 5/21/11).

#5 Strong Leadership

Christian cults are usually characterized by a strong central leader who consider himself “God’s appointed or special messenger” with a unique message, many times, prediction of future events. Consequently, cult leaders can exercise enormous influence over their followers. This is true for example in the Unification Church, The Way International, and the Worldwide Church of God. This strong leadership prompts cult followers into total dependence upon the cult group or leader for belief, future hope, behavior, and lifestyle. When this falls into the hands of a corrupt cult leader, the results can be tragic, as in the case of Jim Jones and the People’s Temple tragedy. The more dramatic the claims of a cult leader, the more the possibility of a tragic conclusion.

#6 Salvation by Works

One teaching that is totally absent from ALL cults is the Gospel of God’s Grace through Faith alone in Jesus Christ and His completed work of redemption. Cult leaders avoid teaching that their followers can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing their faith in Jesus Christ alone. This is generally thought to have something to do with maintaining control over their followers, keeping them focused and enrolled in their organization. They often typically teach that belief in Jesus Christ is important, but one must also perform and maintain various works or follow directives set by the cult leader to remain in “right standing” with God. All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by Grace through Faith that acts as a “hook” to keep them faithful to the cult group. For example, it might be adhering to a prediction of some sort such as date setting for the end of the world or rapture, obedience to Old Testament Laws, practicing various rituals, ordinances, or something else, but it is never taught that Faith in Christ alone will save anyone. Herbert W. Armstrong, for example, was the founder and leader of the Worldwide Church of God, and he exemplifies this by the following statement: “Salvation, then, is a process (implying various works). But how the God of this world (Satan) would blind your eyes to that fact! He tries to deceive you into thinking all there is to it is just “accepting Christ” with “no works” and presto chango, you are pronounced “saved.” But a closer study of the Bible reveals that “none is yet saved” (Herbert W. Armstrong, Why Were You Born? p.11).

#7 False Prophecy

Another feature of the christian cults is they often promulgate false prophecy. Cult leaders who believe they have been divinely called by God, are known to make bold predictions of future events, especially predictions with specific dates for the end of the world supposedly revealed by the inspiration of God either directly or through their manipulation of bible scripture verses taken out of context or misapplied. Unfortunately, for the cult leaders, these predictions of future events DO NOT come to pass. When this occurs, they immediately modify their doctrine or scriptural position often stating that God showed them a “better” or “more accurate” revelation, or they will deny that they actually ever made such predictions in the first place. The one who prophesied is exposed then as a false prophet if they don’t do something to compensate for their doctrinal errors. (SOUND FAMILIAR?) For example, Herbert W. Armstrong, (leader of the Worldwide Church of God), said in one of his writings in 1967, quote, “Now other prophecies have been revealed (implied prophecies revealed to himself alone) that we are to soon have (probably in about four years) such drought and famine, that disease epidemics will follow, taking millions of lives. We have been getting foretastes of them! That condition is coming! And I do not mean in 400 years nor in 40 years, but in the very next four or five! ” (Herbert W. Armstrong, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy. Pasadena: Ambassador College Press, 1967, p. 184). The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a well established record of making false prophecies. This pattern was established by their founder and first president, Charles T. Russell, who conclusively prophesied the end of the world for 1914. The Watchtower Society in later editions made changes in what Russell stated here in an attempt to cover up his erroneous predictions.

Mr. Camping’s bible “doctrine” is a hybrid of all of these cult practices in various ways, and it’s very easy to see and understand.

On the Wednesday Open Forum the first caller asked Mr. Camping to state every night how long it will be to the rapture. This was his reply. “I do say it once in a while, like I’lll say it right now that tonight we’re about 1 year 6 months and about 3 weeks from the end and whether its exactly the date or whether its within a week or so its really unimportant.” That was an interesting comment from someone who has worked out an exact date that now seems unimportant. I know that different followers have put a countdown clock on their websites and have requested that it be put on the Family Radio website. It has not been put on the FR website, maybe this is why. Does Mr. Camping really believe in his date? Is it true that they have are negotiating for radio stations that will not come online until after May 21, 2011? Why would he do that if he believes that date is infallible? I am not sure if anyoone is also aware of the website that David Hoff launched. Isannihilationtrue?.com Apparently this is creating quite a stir among the loyal Camping listeners. David Hoff speaks on FR and sits on the board. Is this the jockeying within FR for control once Mr. Camping is gone? Is David Hoff trying to set himself apart from Mr. Camping’s teachings to create his own following? Do those closest to Camping know that this date will never materialize so they are taking steps to turn this empire back when Mr. Camping dies? This would be funny to watch if it weren’t for all the people that are pawns in Mr. Camping’s ego games.

Good observation! I was listening to the same Open Forum program on the same day and time that you were, and I also heard Mr. Camping say what you posted, and you quoted him exactly. Yes, our observation of the discussion between himself and the caller regarding the caller suggesting to Mr. Camping that he state on the Open Forum radio program DAILY the number of days remaining before the Rapture and Day of Judgement, i.e. 5/21/11, in a “count down” manner, and to my SHOCK as well, I heard what you did, Mr. Camping suddenly taking what seemed to be a “new” or “modified” positing when he said, quote, “so weather it’s within a week or so is really unimportant” LOL! This is an example of the “DOUBLE TALK” (#2 point) that I just made yesterday in my post that reviewed common characteristics of religious cults. Yes, we see here Mr. Camping engaging in “double talk” just as the various authors mention in their writing on the vast subject.

Now, you heard him say exactly this quote, and so did I, and I can only imagine so did thousands of others who listen to his radio program. Much can be said about Mr. Camping “slipping” on this single point, because it is the foundation of all his boasting about his- quote, “spending years doing the WORK of developing the time line for the end of thw world, which is EXACTLY on 5/21/11, it is the Word of God, and if anyone does not believe this, they will surely go into destruction with the rest of the unsaved world” which of course is another one of Mr. Camping’s self-contridictory statements, because he continuously tells callers that NO WORK can save anyone, but yet, Camping boasts about “THE WORK OF HIS DEVELOPING THE TIME LINE FOR THE END OF THE WORLD” which is nothing new at all. He WORKED for his salvation when he published the book 1994? That was indeed a WORK toward salvation just as his WORK for developing the time line for 5/21/11. ALL SELF-CONTRADICTORY ON HIS PART.

So yes, what a radical, radical slip for him to suggest what he said this past Wednesday 10/18/09.

Now keep this in mind, and what I’m going to say, I’ve already said it many times. In addition to Mr. Camping being a cult leader, he is also a NARCISSIST. The CORE feature of ALL narcissists is that they continuously CONTRADICT themselves. I’ve personally heard him contradict himself in the very same breath of completing a signel sentence as if he were two different people, which is also a symptom of his personality disorder pathology. I am a doctor so I fully understand the nature of his personality disorder. All anyone has to do, is go to Google and type in “self-contradiction” and “narcissist personality traits” and you’ll see what I’m referring to. In addition to this, I just posted a summary of what is commonly found in ALL religions cults, and one that I forgot to mention is that they ALL have narcissistic personality traits, and also a central directive above and beyond all their control tactics, which are a) recruiting new members in an effort to expand their movement, and b). generating financial resources from their recruits. These two directives go hand in hand with ALL cults. I’m beginning to perceive that all of Camping’s date setting has to do with keeping people addicted and faithful to his program and send him as much money as possible, including handing over all their resources to him the closer his new date for the end of the world approaches….otherwords, a highly sophisicated Con-Game. Camping denies that he even takes a salary from his radio program, but with his having the type of controlling narcissistic personality he has, with it comes a strong sense of ENTITLEMENT, where anyone and everyone is a “means to his personal end.” I believe that this is his actual game, and that quite possibly, he doesn’t even believe in all his date setting for the end of the world, and every now and then, he slips and loses his focus on keeping his cover tight, which is what I believe is what you and I heard him say that day. Essentially, Camping embodies the story of the Wizard of Oz. If you recall, the Wizard of Oz’s game eventually slipped and he was exposed for what he really is, A CON MAN. That’s the Wizard of Oz story in a nutshell, and Camping my very well be a modern day real life “Wizard of Oz.” LOL. It is no surprise to me at all, if the closer we get to 5/21/11, he may begin

Camping’s comment about “it doesn’t matter whether it’s a week or so” was concerning giving a countdown to 5/21/11. He was saying that it doesn’t matter if he is off by a week or so when he gives a daily “countdown” of 5/21/11. He is not equivocating on 5/21/11 itself. That was the whole context of the question and the answer, if Ruth Ann’s quote is accurate.

This desperation to discredit the message is becoming embarrassing to witness when such easily verifiable false accusations are made. In fact, “Ron K”, I can no longer take you seriously, and it’s becoming apparent this blog is being duped. Here’s why.

I can’t buy the fact that OJ, Ron K, and now Ben G, are sitting around tuning in to Harold Camping’s program, and all researching Camping’s life, history, and are all getting the same things wrong, making the same errors, and cutting and pasting from the same articles. And they all happen to be reporting their amazing findings on this blog. It seems very odd that you are “all” making time to tune in to “blasphemy” and “heresy”, if not every night, then only on the same nights by amazing coincidence. Also writing the same kinds of posts that provide no unique insight or life experience that form your viewpoint. “Ron K” accused me of saying I wrongly misquoted him, when I had made that charge against “OJ”. When I sent OJ the link so he could publically prove me wrong, he never responded. Was this the mistake that gave away the fact that the three of you are indeed all the same person abusing this forum to satisfy some social need? Is it more than just three?

I believe your repeated habit of diagnosing others with personality disorders sadly comes from your own experience with a behavioral disorder. I would, in all seriousness, advise you that you are not helping yourself or adding to this forum with your deception. The hypocrisy is incredible, but again, prophecied in the Word. People like Senecus and JimB are here to discuss real issues of faith. You seem to be here for chuckles. I’m not interested in entertaining that. Yes, I know I don’t have to come here. If I feels it is becoming unproductive, I’ll stop.

Yes, I expect a response comparable worthy of your writing style and thought process, but I cannot regard you as a credible critic of Harold Camping’s ministry. Good luck.

I forgot to mention Ron K’s generic claim of being a “doctor” which qualifies him to tell us to “Google” his criticisms of Camping to prove his armchair diagnoses of personality disorders are correct. Yeah.
That’s medical credibility for ya.

“Yeah” Augustine, that’s allorgory for ya, and your own brand of “arm-chair” diagnosis. Also, it is you who set the “habit” of not responding to people here who have put straight forward questions to you. You excel at this one point. And, who could possibly ever take YOU seriously when you claim that you don’t necessarily buy into Camping’s 5/21/11, but yet you defend his twisted doctrine at every other turn, how uncredible could someone possibly get that YOU. Also, this is a public message board, not an online graduate school where people have paid tuition to earn a degree in theology or any other topic, so rather or not someone like you believes or doesn’t believe someone is “credible” or not is an opinion, nothing more, and nothing less. If you are so disinterested in what I have to say, then please tell us all why you continuously make posts directed to me, this single point in itself shows that YOU have some sort of personality disorder, and it also shows that you are someone who is being less than honest with no intregrity, but then again, that’s nothing new. IT IS YOUR HYPOCRISY that is just incredible, and also, just like Mr. Camping, YOU NEED TO BE INFALLIBLE IN YOUR OWN MIND, which makes you twice the narcissist that he is. The truth about why you don’t want me posting here, and/or your attempt to do whatever you’re doing, is to silence my voice on this message board about Mr. Camping’s twisted doctrine, and THAT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, so you can get used to it, and simply ignore my posts. Lastly, regading me being a doctor. Yes, I am a doctor, and I don’t need to prove that to you or anyone else. My suggestion for others to “Google” had nothing to do with “Googling my criticisms of Mr. Camping” like you misquote, it had to do with Googling the criteria of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and examining the features that are consistent with it, so that they would have a better understanding of elements that are an integral part of Mr. Camping’s personality, and many aspect of Camping’s NPD are VERY APPARENT, AND IT’S TOO BAD THAT YOU DON’T LIKE THAT AND IT’S FINE IF YOU DISAGREE WITH IT, OR VIEW IT AS A CRITICISM. IT’S FACT, NOT CRITICISM. But then again, all Campingites like YOU typically say that others are “critizing” your leader Mr. Camping, for pointing out his doctrinal errors and other matters surrounding his misleading others.

Oh, and here’s one last point, You attack me about Mr. Camping’s countdown on 5/21/11 by stating that he was only “equivocating on 5/21/11 itself”, but yet, Ruth Ann was the first poster to mention this, and I don’t see you adressing this point with her, but instead you single me out as if I was the only one who mentioned it. AGAIN, it shows just how dishonest and bent you are on what I come with to expose Camping for what he is, AND YOU KNOW WHAT, I’M BEGINNING TO THINK THAT YOU HAVE INSIDE TIES TO FAMILY RADIO, SO WHY DON’T YOU TELL US ALL ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE.

All,
In the past I have been on other blog sites about Mr Camping that degenerated into personally attacking each other. I have been guilty of doing this in the past. This is not Christian and not productive. This site is about discussing the teachings of Mr Camping. Of course when we say that his teaching are dangerous or false, we are saying that he is a false teacher, there is no way around that fact. It seems that both sides here are only looking for things that the other side said that they can easily attack. But when clear scripture verses are brought up, they are ignored, or simply dismissed as isolating verses. Whether Mr Camping has some medical disorder or not is not important, what matters if what he is teaching is found in the Bible. Let us only focus on using only scripture verses to go forward with any more discussions.

Mr Camping is a sincere man, he honestly thinks he is doing God’s will and being persecuted for righteousness. However Osama Bin Laden also is sincere and thinks he is doing God’s will also. Also anyone in any religion, or church, or cult, think they are following God, and not man made doctrines. Mr Camping claims to follow the Bible alone, but the facts are that he is blatanly wrong about some very clear doctrines.

For example, MR Camping now believes in the heresey of annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.
Augustine: Do you believe in annihilation? I have not heard you talk about whether you do or not recently, back last year you seemed to defend annihilation, but recently you are silent about this.

So can you let us know if you believe this doctrine or not, or if you are not sure about it.

Also I asked if you know whether you are saved or not. You did not answer this very serious question.

I am personally trying to help you and others see where you may be in error, not attacking you.

If we can not know if we are saved, but only hope we are saved, then what is the point, we can just wait and see if we are raptured? And if there is not rapture at all, then what?

I have asked you these questions about annihilation, and if you know you are saved, but I do not expect you to answer because I believe you really are not sure, but I am trying to make you think about these important issues, to try to open your eyes, but only GOd can open your eyes.

You think that people who disagree with Camping’s teachings are blind, but just the opposite is true. People who agree with Mr Camping are being deceived.

Let me restate the facts:
1) There will be no rapture on May 21, 2011.
2) THe world will not end on Oct 21, 2011.
I say this with 100% confidence, because we are NOT in the final tribulation period yet. I was 100% confident before 1994, and I am 100% confident now.

3) All churches are not apostate. There is no perfect church or teacher. It is not the end of the church age. This is a heresy. As long as there are believers in the world we are to worship according the Bible with elders and deacons, and NOT to sit home by ourselves and listen to family radio.

4) There is a literal single day called Judgement Day, where both believers and non-believers will be resurrected. Believers will get their new bodies and enter into heaven forever. Unbeliever will be judged according to their works and punished, and receive a body fit for eternal punishment. Annihilation is a heresy from Satan himself. The Devil will be tormented forever in conscious torment in Hell Fire, along with his fallen angels, false prophets, and all unbelievers.

5) GOd gives us a lot of signs to watch for to know Christ is coming soon. We are probably close to the end, because Isael is back in their land, the gospel is in all nations, etc. We can NOT know the exact day when this will happen, but as we get closer GOd will open more information up, to let us know we are close.

6) Harold Camping bases all of his dates including the false prophecy of 1994, on his Biblical Calendar, starting with his 13,000 years old earth. If you study this VERY CAREFULLY you will find out that he made many errors in his calendar, therefore all dates calculated from this calendar are INCORRECT, just like 1994 end of the world prediction was INCORRECT. 2011 is also based on his calender, and 2011 is also INCORRECT. According to a plain reading of Genesis 5 and 11, the earth is about 6000 years old, NOT 13,000 years old.

7) The hyper-calvanist doctrine that you can not know if you are saved, is Mr Camping’s wost teaching of all. It is true that many will say Lord, Lord, on Judgement Day, and not be saved. But the geniune true Christian that has God’s Spirit withing him or her, knows there Heavenly Father personally, and has a personal relationship with Him, whereby we cry Abba, Father. If we do not know if we are saved, then let me add, that we are probably not saved.

Does anyone want to discuss these issues? And use only scripture verses to back up our view?

Augustine: Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that the true geniune believer can not know they are a believer, but must hope we are saved like Mr Camping says?

Very good presention ,Jim, even handed and to the point. I agree, lets keep it to the teachings. Sure,we can’t “forget” who the dispenser is (Mr.Camping) but we don’t have to denigrate the person,either. Personally, I like Mr. Camping(must be something about a fellow engineer 🙂 ) and wish him no ill,and greatly admire his dedication.

But, also believe he’s gone off the beaten path, theologically speaking and pray that he would reconsider some of his “finer points” of doctrine. Yes,lets try to keep it to the “Book” ,shall we?

I think the only agreement you will get on that lengthy rant will come from your other personalities.

I address you directly because you are the only one using this blog as your own forum to work out what seem to be very disturbing issues under false pretenses.

What is the cause of creating multiple personalities and then having bizarre conversations with them? What does it mean when someone accuses everyone who disagrees with them of having a “personality disorder”? No answer required. It doesn’t take pretending to be a doctor for the rest of us to know what it all means. (Google “projecting”)

I wouldn’t dream of censoring your posts. You are defeating your own argument more than I ever could and I find myself looking forward to your next one.

The problem with discussing scripture is it becomes a vicious circle that leads no where. Mr. Camping has an answer for every verse that you point to. It is interesting to me to try to find a place where Jesus commanded us to spend our time arguing scripture. Isn’t that what the Pharisees did? Didn’t Paul know the scriptures better than anyone and yet he totally missed what God really wanted from people. Jesus clearly said that to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself was what God required of us. The message is so simple that it becomes a stumbling block. What man always does is add burdens that people have to carry. We can’t be free to love as God wants us to because we are too busy looking over our shoulders and waiting for man to approve or condemn us. Which one of us has any ability to give anyone eternal life? So why do we try so hard to please a man who can’t do anything for us in the end? It does not matter what Mr. Camping believes, he will be judged by God. What matters is who we trust and who we follow. Harold Camping, to my knowledge, has never demonstrated power from God. Jesus did, so I will defer to what Jesus clearly taught.

I called out “Doctor” Ron K…aka OJ…aka BenG to defend the integrity of the forum. His behavior is disruptive to the type of discourse you have presented and Senecus established the forum for. But the internet is rampant with anonymous tough guys and game players that distract from the point.

To answer your question, I do not believe “hell” is a place of eternal torment for unbelievers. I was led to that before Camping said/wrote it. I am not familiar with JW doctrine.

What bothered me from the beginning was that if God created the consequence of eternal torment upon the fall of man, why did He not mention such an incredible thing when it happened? All God told Adam was that He would now die. He was created to be immortal, and now he has lost that immortality. That’s what got me curious about hell. Our punishment is the loss of immortality, not the keeping of it. I can’t find a reference that defines God’s mercy and love as children being eternally tormented.

Then, there is the word “hell” which comes from the word “sheol” orginially meaning a covering or encasement…it means the physical grave. Not a spiritual realm of eternally tormented souls. It’s where the word “helmet” comes from (an encasement or covering for the head), and the word “shoul” (a covering cloth). Again, no association to a spiritual realm of torment.

There are more things that didn’t make scriptural sense. How can a soul burn in physical fire? If it’s not a physical fire, where does the Bible say that?

The Bible tells us our spirits are dead, by our nature, not eternally alive. We LOSE our inheritance of eternal life.

I used to hear Camping say something like “The wages of sin is death, and the death God has in mind is eternal damnation in hell” And I would say, where does the Bible define death as eternal life? It doesn’t say that.

It amounts to parable-like language being used by man to invent the long standing doctrine of eternal damnation. I believed eternal damnation most of my life, but it was a belief of man’s making, not the faith God put in me. When God saved me and put faith in me, I saw things extremely differently, and I notice how much my “natural” self rebels against the new nature God put in me.

When I heard that Camping was teaching this, he actually gained more credibility with me. I agree with Camping on this and on the timeline. I think he stumbles on his delivery and teaching style a lot, but like he says, God is ultimately our teacher.

Anyway, I don’t have the “hell” verses at hand, so feel free to fire away (no pun intended) and we can hash this one out. Thanks, JimB. I hope you are having a blessed Sabbath.

I think a believer can know they are saved. What is rampant today is millions claiming they know they are saved, but they give you thousands of different formulas for how they became saved, and they all reference the Bible for justification that they are right. You can know when someone is likely not yet saved when they give testimony that some act that they did is what got them saved. Or when they have faith on their own terms, or accept God on their own terms.

The only one you “called out” here Mr. Augustine, is YOURSELF, specifically your exceeding lack of integrity, your incredible inconsistencies, and your direct inside affiliation with Family Radio. How transparent you are. Can’t help to notice HOW IMPORTANT it is to you also to continuously SELF-VALIDATE and campaign your “integrity” (which you are void of) to others on this message board, which is something that you excel at as well. And again, everyone here can’t help to notice how ADDICTED you are to replying to my posts and/or mentioning my name every chance you get, which further confirms that it is YOU who has a personality disorder, to be exact, a narcissistic obsessive-compulsive one where you must SELF VALIDATE and be right about your every comment and long winded dissertation of rantings that no one wants to hear but YOU. According to your own definition of me being “OJ” and BenG”, etc., is based soley on you observing that we are all saying the same thing around the same time, but yet, I’ve said the exact same thing that Ruth Ann says, and the most recent one is her observation of Camping’s wavering on 5/21/11 the other week, but yet, you didn’t include her (Ruth Ann) in your high powered insight and analysis of me having multiple aliases, NOW WHY IS THAT??? Based on your own definition of all my previous posts, I should be “OJ”, “BenG”, AND “Ruth ANN”, so why did you NOT include her in your ignorant half-brain analysis??? Just like a narcissist, you think that it is YOU who brings any sense of “integrity” to this forum when in reality it is the EXACT OPPOSITE. It is YOU who loves to muse over your own posts and then try to convince everyone here that you so righteous and deserving of everyone’s acceptance. Please give us all a break with all your highly infantile and immature self-centered speculations. So if you don’t mind, please stop being disruptive to this forum and go create your own where you are the only poster.

Jim, notice how I called out Augustine about his affiliation with Family Radio, and he acknowledges this by remaining silent, just like he always does when people are on to his game. It doesn’t take a lot to figure that out, and of course he conveniently ignored it, and/or doesn’t want to discuss it, because he knows that it’s true.

Yes, it is YOU Mr. Augustine who is a professional at projecting, which you use as a defense mechanism to cover all your personality weaknesses, inconsistencies, narcissism, and lack integrity, and affiliation with FAMILY RADIO.

Oh, and one last point, if I’m soooooooo disruptive to this forum like you say, and I’m abusing it for personal reasons like you say, then why hasn’t Senecus banned me from his forum????? Apparently he doesn’t agree with you, so therefore, you certainly do not have any integrity relative to Senecus the creator of this forum.

Ron K and Augustine,
Like I said before, I have been involved with Camping blog sites before and got into a personal duel with someone on Jeff and Cindy’s WordPress blog site on Harold Camping. We went back and forth for a couple months until they took down the whole site from everyone. I also thought that someone on a different blog site was the same person with several nick names trying to make believe that there were several people who agreed with himself. We should only use on nickname here, I use JimB exclusively on every blog site that I go on, and I always give out my email address jimbbbbb@gmail.com for anyone to contact me.
Ron K: I realize you are frustrated with Mr Camping’s teachings and those who agree with Mr Camping, so am I, but Ron K, and Augustine, let us please keep the discussion about issues related to Family Radio teachings and not each other. I finally realized that attacking one another will not help the other person but draw them further from what we think is the truth. Again the scriptures clearly even talk about this subject. Let us take a look.
2 Timothy 2:22
….pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Is this not a direct and clear command on how to act toward one another?

I have to add although that Mr Camping does not act like these verses, he says that anyone that disagrees with any of his heresies is unsaved, and that everyone on earth who worships in a church is worshipping Satan. Quite outrageous arrogant heresy, if I may say so. However, God keeps reminding me that I once believed that ALL churches were apostate also, when I was in a cult. So how much more should I be patient with others. When I was in that cult many people attacked me, and slandered us, this only made me more convinced I was right, becuase I thought I was being persecuted for righteousness. Looking back, when a couple of people said lovingly to me, “do you think you are the only one with the truth”, it made me think hard. Of course I would say that we were not the only ones, there must be others in the world who had groups like ours but we don’t know about them.

Augustine: thanks for answering my question on your stand on annihilation. I will not get into all of the verses that talk clearly about eternal punishment, but if you scroll back to earlier of my posts you will see numerous verses that talk about this. I personally don’t understand how holy God’s justice, but I would never seek to change the clear verses such as Luke 16 and Matthew 25 and Mark 9. I recenly have a slightly different view on babies in the womb. Camping used to teach that even unborn babies would be tormented eternally in Hell. I leave this in God’s Hands. There are different levels of punishment, just like in our judicial system. So there is no way an unborn baby will suffer as much as the Devil, etc. Maybe an unborn baby just ceases to exist? I am not sure about this. But one thing is sure, Revelation says that the Devil spends eternity in Hell suffering, and his false prophet with him, and the beast from Rev 13.

I do not think there is necessarily literal fire in Hell, or worms that do not die, etc. These are earthly terms that we humans can understand. What hell is exactly like, nobody knows, but it is the worst place that we would ever want to be. Why did Jesus say “My God, why have you forsaken me, and suffer separation from GOd, and emmense pain for our sins, and the unbelievers and the Devil receive no punishment. Hitler receives no punishment, because he died before the “5 months” of terror? This is not a Just God, if some people who go throught the 5 months get more punishment , then those who died before. If people just die as punishment, then Jesus would simply have to physically die to pay for our sins, but he suffered greatly and was smitten, and forsaken, and punished by God for our sins. Annihilation reduces what Christ did for us. And also it makes people think that it is OK not to be saved, because the worst think that will happen to them, is that they will cease to exist, like before they were born. Annihilation is a very serious heresy, even though it makes sense to our human mind, it is clearly against many many verses in the Bible.

Augustine,
One other point, you make blanket statements such as there are millions of Christians with thousands of different ways to become saved. Mr Camping’s way to salvation is one of those thousands of ways, is this the correct way to become saved? Mr Camping teaches a works gospel, whereby you must agree with all of his heresies mentally to be saved. Salvation is very simple, Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross is the only way to be saved.

But blanket statements that ALL churches are apostate is incorrect. You never visited my church, so how do you know it is a “den of thieves”? Becuase Mr Camping decreed ALL churches are under the rule of Satan, and it is the end of the church age?

There are many evangelical churches that only believe that we are saved by grace and nothing else, and believe the Bible is the word of God. My Church is one of those churches. I go to a non-denominational Bible Chapel. It is not perfect, and I don’t agree with every last detail of doctrine, but it stresses the simple Gospel of Christ and LIVING the Christian Life. Please explain to me how this church is under the rule of Satan?

Just the opposite is true, Harold Camping is doing Satan’s work, sowing strife and conflict in the Christian world and telling people not to go to Church, and predicting false dates. I am lovingly trying to keep repeating this truth, and praying that God would open some eyes. People who listen to Mr Camping over and over again, and read his material get programmed in their minds, so I try to keep repeating the truth to try to undo his brainwashing of people.

I don’t agree that the Bible talks clearly about eternal torment. I believe that is man-made doctrine drummed up during the era of medieval churches. The churches dominated people’s lives by promulgating this doctrine, forcing poorer folks to work church lands for free when they could have used the money for survival, and forcing them to pay “tithes” under threat of eternal torment, conjuring up images of demons torturing them in huge cavernous realms with fires burning everywhere. This is why the churches were so powerful and wealthy, and why this doctrine has been promulgated.

Such teachings are from the small and wicked minds of men, and not from God.

As far as the logic that a more wicked person should suffer more, etc, that is human logic. But the Bible addresses when we don’t agree with God’s justice:

“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. … Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9.

It is our sense of justice that wants us to come up with a different set of rules for babies, as you mentioned, on our own. We cannot compare our sense of justice to God, and once we are saved and in glory, who will be thinking about it? So what difference will our sense of justice make then?

And if this truth makes people think it’s OK to be unsaved, well that shows their heart. God doesn’t say He tries to make the non-elect desire salvation on His terms. It says he blinds them to His Truth, hardens their heart, and sends them delusion…because they are non-elect. Atheists love to proclaim that it’s ok to be unsaved.

The punishment is the loss of the inheritance, as God Himself told Adam when he sinned. God explained it right there when he passed judgment on the spot. Why do we not believe God as He spoke out the sentence right when it happened?

Crucifixion was a form of tortorous execution by the Romans. Countless thousands of people have been crucified. Countless millions have been tortured. Why would another beating and crucifixion have the power to atone for sins? God purchased our salvation, as the Bible says, before the world was created. That is how the elect of the OT era were saved. Crucifixion was a known earthly event for which God compared His payment. Why? Because it was the most torturous, brutal, and humiliating form of execution. We know barely anything of God’s affairs before creation, so we can’t fully understand. But we can understand that God uses things from our world to teach about the spiritual world through parables, since we are of this creation and we can only understand in that format. So that tells us that God’s payment was comparable to a human being undergoing what Christ did physically. The sacrafice was the same to Him as volunteering to be tortured and crucified would be to us. This has nothing to do with the doctrine that the unsaved do indeed still have eternal life. The Bible is clear there are two choices. Eternal life or not.

There is a difference in how things are stated that almost amounts to semantics. What we have here is similar to the debate of: “You are saved because you believe” vs “You believe because you are saved”. I, and Camping, believe the latter. Harold Camping does not teach that you must believe the truths of the Bible as he teaches them in order to become saved. Rather, he teaches that it is evidence that you are unsaved if you reject the truths of the Bible, including the ones he teaches.

As far as all churches being apostate, I make it as a blanket statement because I believe it is a Biblical principle. Of course Biblical principles are blanket statements. It is not a matter of experiences or knowing specific churches.

If all we do is tear down, we are no better than the world. My heartache is to see all these man-made scenarios being used to scare people into following a teaching that has no basis in what Jesus taught. How can anyone call themselves a follower of Jesus when they refuse to live as God has called us to live. We all have to live our life either trusting in God’s way or walking in the way of the world. We can’t have a foot on each side of the fence.

“all one can do is cry out to God for mercy daily, demonstrate an intense desire to study the bible, listen to Family Radio, not attend any “church” gathering, and look to and be prepared for 5/21/11 as the date for the Rapture and Judgement of the world, then MAY BE, JUST MAY BE God will decide to save you.”

These are Mr. Camping’s EXACT words, and he has restated this scores of times on Family Radio using various sentence structures.

So no, you are do NOT “believe because you are saved” according to Mr. Camping’s theology, because he has openly stated not only the above, but he has also openly stated that quote, “saving someone is entirely God’s business, and all one can do is cry out for mercy to God and may be, just may God will decide to save you.”

So with this said again, if you are following Camping theology (Mr. Autustine) how is it that you “believe because you are saved????”

Camping says quote, “no one knows if God is going to save them or not, IT IS HIS BUSINESS.” So, you can believe all you want to in God, and say that you believe because you are saved, but this is a direct contradiction to Mr. Camping’s theology.

Of course, you will state that I have misquoted Mr. Camping, go ahead, I know that I am posting his EXACT words, and others here will easily attest to this FACT, and also anyone here is free to call Mr. Camping any time, daily M-F on his Open Forum program, and tell him that you are a believer because you are saved (like you are suggesting), and see what he tells you.

NO, it is ONLY evident that someone is NOT saved if they REJECT the blood atonement sacrafice of the Lord Jesus Christ after hearing it or reading it for themsleves. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That “Faith” is God generated and directed, it is centered on revealing the identity of Jesus Christ as God’s sacrifical lamb who takes away the sins of the world, and who alone overcame the power of death. It is possible for someone to not understand a lot of doctrine and be saved IF their Faith is in the person of J.C. under the Divine Inspirition of the Holy Spirit of God, and the individual internally received this revelation as coming from God, they believe in their heart that God raised J.C. from the dead for the remission of their sins, and subsequently openly confess Jesus Christ as Lord, all of which would not be possible for anyone to do and mean it, or for it to become a living reality to them internally, unless God Himself has revealed this individually to someone which would mean that they are among God’s elect. Faith in Jesus Christ alone is the immutable root of anyone’s salvation and gift of Eternal Life. Keep in mind that according to the N.T. bible, quote, “Yet at the same time many even among the Jewish leaders believed in Him (Jesus Christ), but because of the Pharisees they would NOT CONFESS their Faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise from men MORE than praise from God.”(John 12:42-43). Oh yes, they had Faith, He came to them (many of them) in the form of the Holy Spirit and opened their eyes to the Heaven sent identity of Jesus Christ, God did indeed reveal his Son Jesus Christ’s identity to many of the Jewish leaders in the snagogue and purpose to them to be saved, but they remained in sin by not publically confessing Him as Lord. They were AFRAID of the consequences, they did not trust God with their lives regardless of what it might cost them. In this scripture, we see that salvation includes both the revelation of Christ which God Himself inspired, however salvation is not conferred until someone confesses openly with their mouth what is inside their heart. As the bible says, “out of the overflow one one’s heart, his mouth speaks” (Luke 6:45). Now, please don’t ask me what about someone who is mute? I’m not God, so I don’t know the answer to that. It’s the same thing as asking what if someone is both illiterate and deaf, are they condemed automatically for not being able to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ or read? Only God knows the answers to these kind of questions, but I do know that if someone is among God’s elect, it doesn’t matter what their mental or physical condition is, God is still about to get Faith into them to save them. God is God, and man is man. God’s Power and abilities are without limit and totally transcend all human experience and collective knowledge.

Ron K.
I think most Christians agree with almost all that you are saying.
To answer some of your points: God can save anyone including a baby in the womg, a deaf, dumb, and blind, and mentally retarted person, a person in a coma, etc. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb. If someone can hear, and speak, then they will confess with their mouth, and believe in their heart that Jesus is the Christ. We are commanded to believe in Jesus, everyone is to obey this and not try to figure out if they are one of God’s elect. *** When we bring the Gospel to others, we are to simply tell them they are sinners, and need to trust and Christ as their Saviour, we do not have to mention eletion ****** Anyone who truly genuinely believes, does so because God has drawn them to himself.

Also Ronk: Please understand that not everyone who listens to Mr Cmaping, and agrees with certain of his teachings, agree with everything he is teaching. Recently we found out that someone of the Family Radio Board of Directors does NOT believe in annihilation. Some Family Radio listenes believe in 2011, and churches are of Satan, not annihilation. Some listeners believe annihilation, and not some other things such as “Hope Your Are Saved”, etc. So when you listen to Mr Camping on the radio, and hear his multitude of heresies, AUGUSTINE may or may not agree totally with any of them.

You frustration should be focused toward Mr Camping and not Augustine. Mr Camping will have to answer to God Almighty for teaching all of these destructive heresies, because he does not listen to any one, and does not accept correction from any other person, including his own family, and other Family Radio staff members.

If God determined who he was going to save before we were created, wouldn’t that day be judgment day? What judgment is going to take place on May 21, 2011? Shouldn’t the day be called something other than judgment day? You can’t tell people that they are already judged and then tell them that they will be judged again. Either we were judged for salvation from the foundation of the world or we weren’t.

The only thing that is going to happen on 5/21/11 at the end of the day, or the following day, is Mr. Camping is going to pull out his slide rule, calculator, and moon calendar and begin doing the work of attempting to figure out a new date for the rapture, or he will say that God recently showed him that the Rapture was invisible and only the spirit of the believer went to heaven and their bodies will follow on 10/21/11, or that it will still happen sometime before the end of 2011, or he will come up with some other incredible new doctrine about something important that was suppose to happen in 2011 in general, just like he did with his 1994 prediction for the Rapture, i.e. 9/94, then he said it will still happen before the end of 1994, and of couse it didn’t, then when he saw that he was WRONG, he came up with the “revelation from God” that what actually happened in 1994 was the end of the Church age, how convenient! He absolutely had to be RIGHT about something of sensational biblical proportions regarding his 1994 prediction, and yet, he was still WRONG about that as well. The Chruch Age is NOT over, it will be soon, but not according to Mr. Camping’s predictions or his plans for the world.

Ruth Ann,
Chris McCann is an extreme Campingite as far as I know. Are you talking to him on the Yahoo Latter Rain site, or directly though email? I would not recommend wasting your time corresponding with him, he will give you a multitude of verses to prove his heretical view, like Mr Camping does.

May 21, 2011 is not Judgement Day. Judgement Day will be the very last day of the earth’s existence when the Lord returns and gathers his people, and judges the unsaved. The world will not end in 2011.

Are you struggling with the doctrine of election or pre-destination, then we could talk about that here.

This judgment for all Church age believers will take place immediately after the Rapture of the Church at the Bema or Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom 14:10; 1 Cor 3:10-4:5; 2 Cor 5:10-14). The end result of this evaluation of the believer’s God directed “works” will be the bestowal or denial of special rewards. Here we see that eternal life is a seperate issue relative to the reward for “works” which according to other authors, is, “the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation”

I understand Ruth Ann’s question. I would agree that “Judgment Day” is a misnomer. An example can be when a judge passes a sentence of execution on a murderer. It is more proper to say the judgment day was the day the judge passed the sentence. The second phase of that is when the prisoner lives as a condemned man. The third part is the execution.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? -1Peter 4:17

So since God elected us from the foundation of the world (before linear time was created), and paid the cost of redeeming then, “judgment day” could be considered every day in the life of an unsaved person.

You just threw us a curve ball there. You told Ruth Ann not to waste her time corresponding with someone because you said he’ll use a multitude of verses to prove his view. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to do? Isn’t that what you’re doing? Did I read too much into that…or not enough?

How can every day be considered judgment day for the unsaved? You say that they are condemned and nothing will change that. Doesn’t Mr. Camping teach that they have already received their punishment – being forever separated from God. If they are separated from the day that they are born, they have been judged and have received their punishment. So what judgment begins with the house of God?

I see we had a good day here-alot of “subplots”. One of which is the ongoing Arminianism vs. Calvinism(or “Hyper”-Calvinism). And Augustine,Ron K and Ruth Ann in their last posts raise some interesting(if seemingly conflicting) points,Ruth Ann in particular(and yes,that’s right-“eternal torment”,hell, is being seperated eternally from God). But much said is also a matter of perspective,specifically God’s perspective, and Augustine reveals a key in “linear time”(or really the absence of it).

Being God is not constrained by physical time,He knows “eternity future”(future ,that is,from our perspective) and “knows” all who will be with Him in glory,because,well, He’s there with them. But He also knew this in “eternity past”,didn’t He (being He’s the Alpha and Omega)?

I’m going to muddy the waters with a little academic exercise- When a person dies,when is his soul present in eternity(from our perspective) for judgment? Is he “Absent from the body and present with the Lord”(in his “soul”)? Or is one just present in consciousness – incorporeal,to be united with soul and body at “later dates”? Or does one “wait” for the consummation of time ,in the grave(soul sleep)? And if one is a believer in “annihilation”,when would(could?) that occur in any of these instances?

I really could have started a new thread with this one but I’ll leave it at this for now. Carry on…….

I personally don’t have any first hand knowledge of what happens after death. I know that the accounts of the followers of Jesus say that Jesus was resurrected. Eternal life was never promised before Jesus came to the earth. I read jewish teaching about eternal life and they would agree that eternal life is not taught in their scriptures. So if Jesus was the perfect example of how God wants us to live our lives on earth, his death also becomes the example of what happens to those who fully trust God. When you read Matthew 5-7, it starts by saying that Jesus began to teach them. What did he teach them? He taught them how we are to live. He said that if we want to be forgiven, we must forgive. If you believe that Jesus was sent to earth as the annointed one, you will listen to what he said.

Luke 10 25And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

That is pretty straight forward. So I choose to live my life as God has called us to live. If I worry about what man thinks I should believe, I take my eyes off of what Jesus taught. There is only one way to God and that is through the way that Jesus taught. His way is truth and life. If I don’t love my neighbor, I am telling Jesus that I really don’t believe what He said. The truth is so simple, yet the hardest thing for people to truly believe. Man has done a marvelous job of taking everyone’s eyes off of the truth.

I think Ruth Ann’s referencing of Luke 10 is excellent and is a pivot point of disagreement.

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself…do this, and you will live.” It sounds like we hear the Gospel, agree with it, and take action to become saved.

Isolate this verse, and it seems to say “do this, and salvation will happen”. But in light of Scripture, we know a dead soul can’t decide to love God anymore than a dead Lazarus could “decide” to answer Jesus’ command to exit the grave. God has to resurrect the soul first in order for it to respond. A living soul is a saved soul reconciled to God. The very nature of a saved soul is to love God unconditionally.

So if God has saved us, then we love in accordance with Luke 10, and we shall live.

Here is the problem. When folks “decide” to love God according to this scripture, if they are unsaved, they are loving the version of God they are comfortable with, and therein lies the birth of mulitple Gospel versions that we see today. Man re-creates God in his own image. These are honest folks whom we love dearly and who love us, but if God did not quicken their souls, then they are content with “their” God. They have their reward…a life here on earth.

Senecus, I love your questions and I look forward to addressing them soon.

Saying everyday could be considered judgment day for the unsaved is my own figure of speech. I said “could be” because it would be from a paricular point of view.

Your original question of “what judgment day will take place on 5/21/11”, it’s not so much that a “judgment” will happen that day. It is that the event described in the Bible that we call the rapture will occur on that day, and the beginning of the final five months, which will be the time of terrors on earth. Some can characterize that as part of God’s judgment, some might not. Doesn’t matter what you call it, really.

No, the very nature of a “saved soul” is that God loves the sinner unconditionally and his Grace has been extended to whosoever He has elected by his Divine will, thereby enabling the sinner to respond to His Love, which in no way means that they walk a perfect life before God. This is what one “working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling” is all about.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If the unsaved person is “hearing the Word of God” and they are among God’s elect, they will respond to the call of salvation all of which is the work of the Holy Spirit, i.e. “it’s not according to the will or desire of man, but the Mercy of God.” (Romans 9:16)

Augustine,
My point to Ruth Ann, was not to correspond with someone who will give a multitude of verses, with twisting and spiritualizing, to make them say things not are not scriptural, like the world ending in 2011, and “5 months of terror” after the rapture. I must warn any person to stay away from cult leaders like Mr Camping and anyone who agrees with any of his heresies. The Bible commands me to warn others to stay away from false teachers who twist the Bible to their own destruction, and have been clearly proven to be a false prophet in the past, like in 1994. Once proven a false prophet, we are not to consider any other predictions from them.

Here is what God says:

Deut 18:
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him”.

We are not to be afraid of any of the heresies that Mr Camping teaches, including “all churches are of satan”, “world will end in 2011”, “annihilation like the Jehovah’s Witnesses Cult teaches”, “Hope you are Saved”, and many other false teachings.

The point being, all I hear is judgment day is May 21, 2011. There are bumper stickers, t-shirts, car wrappings, tracts, etc that all say Judgment Day, May 21, 2011. So you put in people’s mind that on that day God is going to judge people. If you are elect, God will rapture you to heaven, if you aren’t you will endure the wrath of God. But in reality, God has made that judgment already and your fate is sealed. So why not preach it that way? Your fate is sealed, on May 21, 2011, you too will find out who God chose. It doesn’t generate the same fear that preaching a judgment does. And fear is the key to the message. You want to play on everyone’s deep secrets that they hold in their heart of things that they don’t want revealed. I had to think of a quote that addresses this issue clearly.

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.

Thich Nhat Hanh
Vietnamese Buddhist Monk, Author

Mr. Camping has done this with all those who listen to him. He has created the enemy to be the “corporate church”. He tells everyone daily how the church is our enemy, that Satan is ruling there. He instills fear that you might not be elect if you don’t leave the church and proclaim his teachings. What a sad way to be a leader.

Here is the question that I would pose to anyone who wants to answer. During the timeframe of the Old Testament, would there be any argument that God’s chosen or elected people were the Israelites? If they were his chosen people, did they all follow God? Were they instructed by Joshua to choose who they were going to follow and trust?

I’m very much agreed with much of what Ruth Ann and Ron K posted. I agree with Ruth Ann on how the message of 5/21/11 is communicated. I’m finding most believers of this doctrine…”Campingites” maybe?…disagree with me on many, many things. I recently received quite a backlash from some of them for disagreeing on wearing the 5/21/11 t-shirts.

On Ruth Ann’s point of fear being a tool used to manipulate people in matters of faith, I believe this is true as I pointed out in a previous post. Using fear of eternal torment has been used to mandate service, money, and power to church entities for hundreds of years of our history. We now see that doctine is false if we go by Scripture only, let Scripture interpret itself, and not believe something out of habit.

To say Camping is manipulating through fear is misleading. Those on this forum are teaching the fearful doctrine of unsaved souls being eternal, contrary to the Biblical teaching that they are dead. Camping is saying this is not the case.

How is what Camping teaches more fear-mongering than teaching eternal torment of all unsaved men, women, and children, despite the Bible telling us implicitly that the unsaved have lost eternal life, not kept it in another place.

I think we could agree that the “2011 Doctrine” has reached the level of sensationalism.

I believe you answer your own question on teaching/manipulation-“How is what Camping teaches more fear-mongering…..”. One could say that the fear of “2011 Doctrine” has “been used to mandate service, money, and power” for Family Radio. True, not in the same magnitude as had say the Inquisition for the Catholic church and not as overtly,but as Ruth Ann points out in her next post,there are those Campingites who feel they are doing the work of Family Radio(Mr. Camping)by shouting the date,stuffing a tract in ones face, and brow beat you if you don’t immediately agree with their “Pontiff’s” dire prediction. Very reminiscent of “1994”.

You didn’t address that Mr. Camping has made the corporate church the enemy. I had to think about Paul writing to the Romans and trying to quell the same mindset about the law. They were making the law the enemy. The law was never the enemy, people’s unwillingness to trust God was the enemy and it still is. So how do we live to show people that we trust in God’s ways? By saying that God really doesn’t want us to care about each other in a real way. God only wants us to proclaim a date, throw a tract at someone and then condemn them if they don’t agree with you.

We should fear God alone, he is a just and a loving God. We should not fear any man, teacher, church, satan, etc.

God’s justice demands punishment for the Devil and the unsaved. Let us have the Bible speak for itself, without any twisting or spiritualizing. Let us see if we should fear God, and his most Holy Justice, and wrath. Remember this is the Bible and not a Church Creed or man-made doctrine.

Luke 12:
4 And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Luke 16:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

These are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and this does not sound like annihilation to me.

“We should fear God alone, he is a just and a loving God. We should not fear any man, teacher, church, satan, etc.”

Well said ,Jim. Fear God,and I’ll add just be wary of the others.

As you probably know there are those “across the aisle” that will say Luke 16:19-31 is just a parable, that Jesus only wanted to illustrate the hardness of mens hearts not believing one should they rise from the dead(ignoring Where the rich man was)or other myriad explanations. Yet,Jesus never addressed that this was a parable,as he did with others. And even if it were,He always drew from the listeners experience and things common and accepted (or at least known of),things they would be acquainted with. Not something esoteric.

Can’t help to notice a couple of very ODD things about Mr. Camping’s “ministry.”

#1
He NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, mentions the Love of God.

#2
In line with #1, He NEVER says to any of his callers to Family Radio that God loves them and to put their faith and hope in Jesus Christ. Camping speaks of God in generic terms when it comes to “trusting” God. He NEVER says, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have listened on and off to the Family Radio program for over 10 YEARS, and I have not once ever heard Camping make any statements on the air regarding the LOVE OF GOD. In fact, I would say that his vocabulary for some strange reason is VOID of the use of this kind of language.

#3
He seems to think that God is finished with the Jews, and that there is no salvation plan for them, and in fact, he has stated that the Nation of Israel did not pass God’s 40 years of testing between 1948 to 1998, which according to him, proves that God is finished with them. This single point in and of itself tells me exactly who Camping is, and that he does not adher to sound doctrine, as Salvation is of the Jews and everyone else has been grafted into that Salvation plan.

Here’s another one of Mr. Camping’s incredible statements on today’s Open Forum radio program.

11/5/09 @ 5:54pm Pacific Time-

“The Holy Spirit abandon the Church in 1988 (i.e the beginning of the “Final Tribulation”), and installed Satan as ruler over the Church.” “From that time forward, no one was able to be saved if they are attending any organized Church.” “Since 1988, salvation has only been possible outside the Church as a direct act of God which will come to an end on 5/21/11, which is when God will judge the world and the Rapture will take place.”

In 1988 Camping published the book The Final Tribulation where he states that no one can be saved once the Tribulation has started which according to him was originally on May 21, 1988 (p.137-8 and 158). He has since then changed this to say that “once the Tribulation has ended no one can be saved, which updated by him to September 6, 1994. However, in only the last 18 months, he change his cut off date for anyone to be saved to the now infamous 5/21/11, end of the world, day of the rapture, thereby representing not two (2) times he has changed the cut off date for anyone to be save, but now that total stands at three (3) changes or resetting of cut off dates to be saved.

Keep in mind that Camping continues to adhere to quote “it is NOT possible for anyone to know they are saved, this is God’s business, and all one can do is cry out to God for mercy, then MAY BE, just MAY BE God will decide to save that person.” So therefore, these “cut off dates” for anyone to be “saved” are VOID of any meaning. Why? Because according to Mr. Camping, no one knows if they are saved or not, even if they are looking to his cut off dates for the rapture to occur, which is also his cut off date for anyone to be saved.

How terribly, terribly Mr. Camping suffers from all his internal struggles and tourments.

JimB, the “false prophet” reference does not apply to Camping’s “1994?” Camping did not say that God proclaimed to him that 1994 was the end. We’ve been through the details of that. God’s revelation is through His Word to us all. I don’t believe Camping, I believe God.

You said God’s justice demands punishment for the devil and unsaved. Yes it does…it is punishment in the extreme to lose the eternal life we are created for. God told Adam as much at the “sentencing”. Where did He mention eternal torment to Adam in order for Adam to teach his children? What we mean when we “demand justice” is we want to know they are being punished because that’s what our human sense of justice calls for. That is called being vindictive, and it is a trait of natural man, not of God. That is why we assume God must be vindictive, because we are. The Bible does not teach eternal torment…it teaches eternal damnation which is being damned to losing our inheritance for eternity.

Senecus, you said that my “side of the aisle” would point out the account of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. If it is not, then we have to now teach the doctrine that unsaved souls have already been judged and sent to hell, and that they converse with saved souls in heaven. Are you ready to teach that? God identifies Himself as a consuming fire, and the practice of destroying waste products through incineration is often used as a description of the death of the unsaved. What happens to items thrown in the fire? Do they burn forever? No, but they are destroyed forever in a flame that does not go out until the object is gone. Redemption is not possible. Fear Him that can destroy both body and soul in hell (sheol…the grave). This describes the same condition of the body and the soul…destruction.

Senecus, you skipped over my point. You are all saying that the Bible teaches that billions of souls of our family member, neighbors, and friends…billions of men, women, and children…will keep their eternal life and suffer in excruciating torment for all eternity. Camping says the Bible teaches that the unsaved will lose their eternal life, as God told Adam, and as the Bible repeats again and again. Who is fear-mongering? It’s almost incredible that comparison is even made!

As far as semantics…the love of God is the mercy of God and obedience to God, as the Bible defines it. Camping addresses the love of God almost every time he talks about Him.

“Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.” –Psalm 139: 7,8. .

“The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in His mercy”. – Psalm 147:11

Hello again,Augustine – No,wasn’t skipping over your point, highlighting the “fear-mongering” portion of it. Fear is fear,people respond to situations according to their “worldview” . Hell may insight fear to those of a “traditional” Biblical view point, where as to a Campingite believer in annihilation,it would not. Only the “Date” and the “hope” they are saved (ready for it) would scare the hell out of them!(pun intended).

Yes,physical death. ” He has no more conscious existence…..” that brings me back to my post about time/death…..sounds like you’re speaking of “soul sleep” here….not trying to “put words in your mouth”, Augustine, feel free to expand.

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” (Revelation 20:6)”He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt by The Second Death.” (Revelation 2:11)

I sure don’t see “annihilation” anywhere here in these passages of scriptures. Second Death sure is NOT a synonym for annihilation, now is it?? I perceive from Scriptures that there are two deaths, man’s physical death which is the result of man’s spiritual death, which is what happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned against God, and then as a result of that, they passed this “death principal” on to all of humanity that was to be born through them.

The Second Death, is an Eternal Law, it is the opposite of “The Tree of Life”, or The Law of Life which is also an Eternal Law. It describes the Nature of God Himself. It was present in the Garden of Eden. The Law of Eternal Death was also present in the Garden of Eden, which was the Devil. He became a law unto himself through his rebellion in Heaven when he was still Lucifer, and by doing do, he (the Devil or Satan) introduced the Law of Eternal Death into the Universe, because before He (Satan) did what he did, there was NO LAW OF ETERNAL DEATH. Satan fully embodies the Law of Eternal Death, which has to do with ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD. This is the condition that the Devil wants to see all of humanity end up in. In the Garden of Eden, it was Satan’s desire and purpose to pass (or transfer) his Law of Eternal Death onto God’s creation (Adam & Eve) and ultimately to all of humanity, thereby attempting to destroy a central element of God’s Divine creation. He (Satan) almost succeded if it had not been for the Tree of (Eternal) taking on the form of a man in Jesus Christ…more on this later.

So, let’s take a look at this “Second Death” and what it is.

Keep in mind that these LAWS are ETERNAL IN NATURE, i.e. The Law of Life vs. The Law of Death…try to stay with me through this, and please forgive me if I repeat myself.

And the Lord God said, “The man (Adam) has now become like one of Us, knowing Good and Evil (Here are those two laws mentioned right here, i.e. Good = The Law of Life vs. Evil = The Law of Death). Then God said, He (Adam) must NOT be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and LIVE FOREVER.” (Genesis 3:22). WHY???? As a consequence of Adam and Eve’s sin, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and denied access to the “Tree of Life” which I came to understand that it represented The LAW of God, specifically, the LAW of God’s own Nature which is the Law of Eternal Life, unending. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were under testing by God after He created them, because according to scripture, all Faith must be tested. God creates everything by Faith if you know you bible. God in His Mercy prevented Adam and Eve right there in the Garden of Eden from entering into Eternal Seperation from God in their fallen condition by preventing them access to the Tree of Life. This would be permitted LATER with the 1st advent of Christ, but not at that time in God’s economy. God did not want them to then turn around and make matters much, much worse, and even irreversable so, by them eating of the Divine Law of Eternal Life (i.e. that Law taking up permancent residence in their human spirit), which would have cause them to live Eternally seperated from God, which is EXACTLY what the Second Death speaks of. So here, we see Satan deceiving Adam and Eve, and passing onto him his Nature, the Law of Eternal Death and Sin, then, the Devil being a clever as he is, wanted Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden and also eat of the Tree of Life (or the principal of Eternal Life) so that their condition would become IRREVERSABLE. God did NOT allow that to happen, so this is why He banished them from the Garden, until the Tree of Life (The Law of Eternal Life) became a man (Jesus Christ), more on this in just a moment.

ALL SIN HAS TO DO WITH SEPERATION FROM GOD, THE SOURCE OF ALL LIFE.

Here we see that God in His Great Love, banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden to make sure that they did not partake of the “Tree of Life”, because in doing so again, they would have throwen both themselves and the entire human race into an irreversable condition of the effects of sin and seperation from God unable to ever escape it’s effects(i.e. the principal of death, dying, and decay) living like a mortal man, then to make matters worse, they would have wound up eternally seperated from God in their condition of sin or being seperated from God.

In time, God would send the incarnation of the “Tree of Life” (i.e. The Law of Life, or The Principal of Life), which is none other than The Lord Jesus Christ, into the world and for Him to live and die like a man, but without sin, and in doing so, He qualified to “undo” the seperation from God that Adam and Eve caused, by His death on the cross. Then, and only then, was man to “partake of the Tree of Life” by “Faith”, namely The Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Divine Plan and provision of God, and in doing do, gain Eternal Life, and live forever without sin and in God’s Holy Kingdom.

Now, here’s my point regarding the revelation of the “Second Death.” This has to do with those who NEVER received, by Faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, and because of this, i.e. rejecting His blood Atonement power over Death, the end result of this is that any unsaved human being is going to live forever, eternally seperated from God (just like the Devil and His Angels). Remember, that the Devil passed his Law of Death onto Adam and Eve. This is what would have happened in the Garden of Eden had God not prevented Adam and Eve from the possibility of partaking of the “Principal of Life” (Tree of Life), so that God in his own timing and fullness of His plans, would make a way for man to “get rid of his sin” through receiving by Faith the transference of sin and death for Eternal Life through Faith in Jesus Christ. This provision was NOT in place in the Garden of Eden because it (The Law of Life or Principal of Life) had to be incarnated so that there would be a genuine qualification for a sinless man (Jesus Christ) to pay the price for all sinners IN HIS OWN BODY on the cross, so that the sinner may go free, which is what Jesus being the propitiation of the sin for all humanity is about(i.e. The provision and/or method which pleased or satisfied God’s requirement for the “undoing” of the sin of mankind). This was Jesus’s very purpose for being sent into the world by God the Father. We see Satan playing “Judo” in the Garden of Eden with Adam, Eve, and God. He (Satan) wanted to use God’s own principal of Eternal Life against Adam and Eve, which is exactly what God was going to give them had they passed God’s testing in the Garden. When we fast forward, we see man passing God’s testing in Jesus Christ for living a sinless life, and our trusting in J.C. to take away our sins by Faith in His blood sacrafice on Calvary. Oh, yes, God indeed wanted us to partake of the Tree of Life which could of happened the “right way” in the Garden of Eden if, again, Adam and Eve would have NOT obeyed the Devil, but again, God in his Wonder Mercy is the God of second chances, the Jesus Christ is man’s only second chance he will ever get to partake of the Principal of Eternal Life, in Jesus Christ.

So here rests the explanation that “unsaved man” SHALL INDEED live forever in a bodily form, an eternal bodily form, as an eternal being who is eternally seperated from God tourmented day and night in the Lake of Fire with the Devil and his Angels, because he (unsaved man) rejected God’s only provision to escape this terrible condition. God wants mankind to partake of the “Tree of Life” (Jesus Christ) now that He has come in the flesh and qualified to make the transfer of the sin and the ultimate consequences of it (the Second Death) for Eternal Life in Christ through Faith.

Now, let’s balance this.

Keep in mind that God was NEVER obligated to save man, in fact, it is recorded in scriptures that God was “sorry” that He ever created man (see below). So this has to do with God’s elect, that for some reason, He extends his Mercy on whosoever He Wills, which according to the scriptures, is a mystery, as God makes one vessel for destruction and another for honorable purposes.

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was evil continually. And the Lord was SORRY that He created man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart.”(Genesis 6:5&6)

Through God’s salvation plan, he still administers justice, as He was NOT responsible for man (Adam and Eve) and all of mankind, in their choice for sin over God’s Holiness.

Yes, the Lake of Fire is very real, it is a place where the all of unsaved humanity will live out “The Second Death” reality, i.e. Eternal Seperation from God due to their unrepented sins which could have been taken away if they would have placed their Faith in Jesus Christ, so basically the Second Death has to do with all those humans that were NEVER among God’s elect, they never heeded to the call to Salvation and Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

I hope this stimulates some good discussion on this important topic! The Second Death is NOT annihilation, and we should all deal with it one way or another. Remember that God said, He did NOT want Adam and Eve to partake of the Tree of Life AND LIVE FOREVER (i.e. in the condition they caused themselves to fall into with the help of the Devil). Remember, Sin seperates from God, the wages of sin is Death, Death will go on into eternity and all those intimately associated with its PRINCIPAL (i.e. SATAN), seperated from God. This is WHAT Jesus came to prevent, thereby demonstrating God’s Infinite Mercy and Love, so even God repented from His previously saying that He was sorry that He created man, and His sending Jesus Christ into the world is proof of His Eternal Love.

First Death = physical death as a result of spiritual death inherited through Adam, the present condition of humanity. This condition is reversable through Faith in Jesus Christ.

Second Death = eternal seperation from God. This condition is irreversible as a result of one NOT heeding to the call of Salvation, and remaining in sin.

Yes, Augustine, you are speaking however of the First Death, i.e. the effects if “physical death only.” However, there is coming a “Second Death” in the future that is very clearly recorded in scripture as I’ve outlined above, it is none other than God resurrecting all the unsaved, the unredeemed who ever lived….bringing them ALL back to life physically in a real body that is capable of eternal existence, a body that will NOT return to the dust of the earth…these will all stand before the Great White Throne Judgement recorded in the Book of Revelation, of which Jesus Christ presides over, which is the Judgement of Eternal Seperation from God; THE SECOND DEATH JUDGEMENT. This Judgement is for the purpose of conferring sentencing upon the unsaved, those who’s names were not written in the Lamb’s Book Of Life before the foundations of the world, these are those who are not of among God’s elect, those who never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ by Faith alone, and thus were never indwelled by The Holy Spirit. These all will go into eternity, with their former conscious mind, a real physical body far different than our present human body that wears out, and their unsaved soul (i.e. mind, will and emotions), eternally seperated from God irreversibly, in the Eternal Lake of Fire, God’s appointed place of suffering and rememberence for their evil deeds and for trampling under foot God’s Holiness and Love…..as the Book of Revelations says….”and the smoke of their torment will rise up FOREVER, AND EVER.” How can someone be “tormented forever and ever”, if they are not aware of anything…Let’s be honest now and not play games with words like you know who.

“The smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever”. Smoke is a particulate by-product of combustion. If a particulate by-product is being produced, then that means something is physically burning. Smoke rising denotes the passage of linear time, the presence of atmospheric pressure, temperature, and other features of this creation.

Spiritual souls physically burning in eternal linear time in a place with earthly features? This conclusion doesn’t harmonize with Scripture or the nature of God as He has revealed Himself. God teaches us in parables so that we can understand spiritual truths by comparing them to earthly experiences and knowledge.

Augustine,
You are learning to rationalize and twist scripture. God does talk in human terms so we can understand eternity. Just like in Revelation 21 and 22, God uses language such as gold, and pearls, and a temple.

Luke 16 may be a parable. But the lesson we learn from the parable is NOT annihilation. The lesson we learn is that the unsaved are conscious and are suffering. Why would Jesus say such a parable, if they just die, and are not conscious ever again. Jesus would be lying by implying people are conscious after death. According to your annihilation theory, people just die, and are ressurected DEAD and are not conscious. But the Bible indicates that the unsaved, must give an account for every idle word. If they are ressurected dead and are not conscious, how can they give this account. Also Matthew 25 indicates, that the unsaved will ask, when they saw Jesus, and did not serve Him. How can they do that if they are dead, and not conscious?

The Bible is crystal clear that there is ressurection of the saved and unsaved on the LAST DAY when Jesus returns. This does not have anything to do with the 5 months, which is a heresy from Satan.

Annihilation means that everything is burned up and dies, and the fire goes out, and ceases. But Jesus uses earthly terms to clearly say that the fire never goes out. Whether there is literal fire or not, or if there are worms, is not revelant. But the point is that the conscious punishment that never ends for the devil and unsaved.

Mark 9:
42 And whosoever(False Teachers) shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Do you think that Jesus is saying this so we believe in Annihilation. Why would Jesus say the the fire is never quenched? And the worm dieth not? Annihilation means that everything is burned up and consumed and dies, and the fire goes out? Why would Jesus talk like this if everything gets burned up?

“And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name (Rev 14:11).

And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the Beast and the False Prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER. (Rev 20:10)

But the fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the Lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: this is the Second Death. (Rev 21:8)

This kind of language God uses “FOR EVER AND EVER”, “TOURMENTED DAY AND NIGH”, is a TOUGH NUT TO CRACK, when comparing these terms to “annihilation.”

Simply put, they do NOT convey the same meaning
or even a similar meaning. In fact, their meanings are exactly the opposite of each other.

There is no need to look at any parables to comprehend what is going to happen to the unsaved. I already gave the discussion earlier today about the reason why God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden when they sin against God and died spiritually that very same day. If in their fallen condition of sin, which they made a choice not only for themselves but also for all of humanity, had they partaken of the Tree of Life afterwards, they would have become eternally seperated from God, all on the same day, right there in the Garden of Eden.

God made certain that this would not happen, He did not want them (and all of humanity in them to come), to live eternally in an irreversable condition seperated from Himself. What God did there in the Garden of Eden speaks volumes of the reality of the Second Death being an ETERNAL condition of suffering and tourment just like God says in several verses of Revelations which I already posted. God said it, He did not want them to live forever in a fallen condition, this is what Satan wanted for them both and for all of humanity, living FOREVER SEPERATED FROM GOD, aka: THE SECOND DEATH!

The First Death = physical death, it is temporary and reversible. It is the result of the “sin principal” which has to do with seperation from God, which Adam and Even inherited from the Devil by yielding to him, and in doing do, they passed the sin principal of seperation from God onto all of humanity.

The Second Death = permanent, irreversible, and eternal death as a result of unrepented sin due to rejection of God’s only provision (The blood atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ) to escape this condition.

I’ve explained this in detail earlier today, and I’m not going to explain it again.

The Bible says the saved have their inheritance of eternal life and the unsaved do not. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The Bible says God destroys the soul in death. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The Bible says the unsaved man has no more thought or knowledge of anything after he dies. I did not twist it to say otherwise. The word “hell” is translated from the word for “covering” used to describe the grave. I did not twist that.

The Bible compares death to the consumption of objects by fire. This led people for centuries to adopt the concept of the tormented underworld of Egyptian and Greek mythology. But God says that HE is the consuming fire.

You ask why would Jesus speak this way? The Apostles already asked Him that. And He replied, “Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand”.

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished…Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecc 9: 5,10

“The wages of sin is death”.

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire” – Rev 20. Hell itself is to be tormented? Hell means “grave”. There will be no more death, no more grave.

Do you understand everything that God says in full dimension????? Do you perfectly comprehend God’s Eternal Nature? Do you comprehend how Jesus was able to walk of water??, or suddenly appear in a room when all the doors were closed?? God has many names in the Bible, not just one, each of His names describes various aspects of his Eternal attributes, do you perfectly understand all that God IS, DOES and SAYS?? Do you understand the Trinity, and that God birthed Himself in a virgin named Mary, and that He had no earthly father and never committed any sin?

So unless you comprehend everthing there is to know about God, how is it that you STRUGGLE with God describing himself as a “consuming fire” or that Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire where there is tourment day and night??

What you are saying in all of this, is that unless you comprehend everything about God and for it to make sense to YOU, then it must not be possible for rational reason that it simply “doesn’t make sense” to YOU.

You being a man, just like all of us here, are attempting to comprehend God’s nature through a limited human mind….IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN, which is why Faith is required, which has to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who’s central ministry is to “illuminate” or “revelate” the Word of God, and also, bare witness to the Truth, this is the ONLY way in our present human experience that we are able to “comprehend” what God is talking about in scriptures. So one’s ability to comprehend God’s discussions in scriptures can come only by Faith, just like everything else does in God’s economy.

To see these things, like death and Hell being cast into the Lake of Fire being tourmented with all else who are there, doesn’t make sense, and it doesn’t have to for it to be a Divine fact.

I highly recommend that you take a look at the following scripture as it explains what you are struggling with.

“For the present time (here on earth) we see things as if in a mirror and we are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is IMPERFECT; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (1 Cor 13:12-WNT)

This scripture thoroughly addresses your struggles with Biblical Truths like the Eternal Lake of Fire, death and hell being cast there also, etc.

I leave you with this:

Do you recall the Biblical account of Moses on Mt. Horeb when he encountered God in a burning bush and out of that bush God spoke to him the Ten Commandments? According to the biblical account of this event, THE BUSH WAS ON FIRE, but was NOT consumed by the flames. Now, how was that possible??

Yes, the Bible does compare death to the consumption of objects by fire, but that does NOT necessarily mean that the objects are destroyed or vaporized by the fire, just as in the burning bush event. So, with this, it is VERY easy to discern that God is able to do anything, including resurrecting the unsaved and putting them into a physical body that is able to withstand the flames of the Lake of Fire throughout all eternity.

This dynamic is what is referred to as “disambiguation”, which means that a single term can be associated with more that one meaning, and this is clearly seen in the example I just gave you with the burning bush.

Yes, Jesus did speak in parables, but NOT always, and the reason why he used parables was so that it was only possible to comprehend what He was talking about through the revelating power of the Spirit of God given only to those who received Him and his Words. The Bible clearly describes this in the Gospels.

I pray that thine eyes of underatanding be enlightened, and that you receive the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14:9
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night….

Matthew 25:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Deut 4:
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it

Mat 25:46 you posted very clearly reveals the Law of Eternal Life vs. The Law of Eternal Death. Both are eternal physical, bodily, and conscious realities.

As you and I and others have been maintaining in discussion all along, there is no “annihilation”, it is a deception, it is one of several instruments of the Devil’s tool box.

If someone is “dead and unconscious” and/or they “cease to exist” like Mr. Camping claims through his twisting doctrine, then the words God uses in the scriptures you quoted are a misapplication, and we know that that is NOT the case.

So either Mr. Camping is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE, or God is being DISHONEST OR ILLITERATE. I’ll bank on Mr. Camping being dishonest or illiterate, and it’s absolutely amazing how someone can look at the words being used in scriptures verses like the ones you quoted above and come up with something completely different than what is being said.

Another thing Camping is famous for is saying that the Bible intreprets itself, and that a student of the bible must examine all scriptures on a particular topic or doctrine to “discern Truth.” This is correct. However, Camping does NOT do this himself, in fact, he selectively disregards scriptures that are very clearly central to a specific doctrine, then goes to obscured or Old Testament verses (types and shadows of The Truth) in an attempt to bring greater clarity on New Testament verses (the Truth in full view view) which is a fatal violation of biblical hermeneutics. Then on top of it all, he assigns an allegorical definition which essentially REDIRECTS the original intended meaning, so here’s what Camping style interpretation produces:

Camping quote:
“everlasting punishment” means that the unsaved person doesn’t exist anymore throughout all eternity, that is their punishment, they cease to exist. They will never partake of God’s Eternal Kindgom.”

This is one of Camping’s famous quotes, and by this, it shows that he does NOT discern the Law of Eternal Death (i.e. eternal seperation from God), nor the doctrine of the resurrection of the unsaved who will face the Great White Throne Judgement in the future where the Law of Eternal Death will be commuted upon them in their unsaved condition, after which time, they will immediately be cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tourmented day and night, forever and ever. Notice how the scripture mentions “CAST ALIVE” into the the Lake of Fire……How are these unsaved people suddently seen here ALIVE??..the resurrection of the unsaved for the purpose of facting The Second Death Judgement, where they will be eternally seperated from God, which is the result of a choice that they made. Camping says that the unsaved’s body only will be shot out of the grave like a cannon and put out on the ground by God, and that this is the unsaved’s person shame, then they will disappear when the world is consumed by fire along with all the rest of the unbelieveing world, and all will cease to exist. This is a DRAMATIC heresy on Camping’s part. It’s absolutely DISHONEST AND RIDICULOUS.

Let me give another example of Camping style misintrepretation: For example if you wrote a letter to me and mention in that you had a “bad day”, if I were applying Camping style interpretation, I would walk away with, “Jim said in a previous letter that he had a good day, and that he did not like rain, so therefore when he said in this current letter that he had a bad day, that meant that it was a rainy day.” This is EXACTLY what Mr. Camping does, and what he has done with annihilation is that he does not comprehend the doctrine of the Second Death, nor the Law of Eternal Death, which of course means that he does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to show him these kinds of things.

Mr. Camping (and all of his followers) needs to be Born Again. They need to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.

Found an interesting take from CRI – H.Hanegraaff’s site,this is an exerpt from the article:

Why Should I Believe in Hell?
DH190
Hank Hanegraaff

This article first appeared in the Ask Hank column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 1 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2 niv).

The horrors of hell are such that they cause us instinctively to recoil in disbelief and doubt; yet, there are compelling reasons that should cause us to erase such doubt from our minds. First, Christ, the Creator of the cosmos, clearly communicated hell’s irrevocable reality. In fact, He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven. In the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5–7), He explicitly warned His followers more than a half-dozen times about the dangers that lead to hell. In the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24–25), He repeatedly told His followers of the judgment to come. In His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), He graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.

Furthermore, the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell, there is no choice. Without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity. The alternative to hell would be worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.

Finally, common sense regarding justice dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler’s Holocaust would never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences. The ancients knew better than to think such a thing. David knew that it might seem for a time as though the wicked prosper despite their evil deeds, but in the end justice will be served. We may wish to think that no one will go to hell, but common sense regarding justice precludes that possibility.

Is Annihilationism Biblical?

If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:9–11 niv)

Just as universalism (i.e., everyone will be saved) is the rage in liberal Christian circles, so, too, annihilationism (i.e., God will annihilate unbelievers) is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question, of course, is whether annihilationism is biblical.

First, common sense tells us that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate a portion of the crowning jewels of His creation. He graciously provides everyone the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.

Furthermore, common sense also leads us to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all. It is also crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell will be equal. We may safely conclude that Hitler’s torment in hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns His grace will suffer exactly what he or she deserves (see Luke 12:47–48; cf. Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15).

Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God (Gen. 1:27); therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. That is precisely what hell is.

For further study, see Robert A. Peterson, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Press, 1995).

Ron K.
You are correct. When the Devil came to Eve, he said ” you shall sure not die”. Satan is coming today and saying, “Has God really said there is eternal conscious punishment”. There is many verses that say the the wages of sin is death, etc. I have no problem with any of these verses. PHYSICAL DEATH IS A PART of the curse. So all of the verses that talk about physical death are correct and stand as they read. But the Bible is also clear that there is a resurection of unbelievers. As we saw in Matt 25, the unsaved are TALKING to Christ, and therefore they have been resurrected and are conscious and they must answer to God for their sins. Harold Camping teaches that these people are resurrected “DEAD” and are “SHAMED” for “5 months”. If you are dead, how can you be ashamed? You are not conscious, so who care what happens!!! This is Mr Camping’s desparate attemp to get around Daniel 12.

Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We clearly read that unsaved people will awake, and experience shame and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. This is where Mr Camping gets his heresy that their “bones will be shamed”.

John 5:
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

Notice again that it says that ALL in the graves will HEAR HIS VOICE. How can someone who is dead HEAR? Mr Camping teaches that people remain dead, the BIBLE teaches that unsaved people are resurrected, come back to life and are conscious, and are judged.

Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

Again, how can someone give account of anything if they are dead and unconscious?

The idea of unsaved people remaining dead and uncounscious for the resurrection, and shamed for 5 months, is a stange doctrine and a heresy from the pit of hell and satan.

However we must not judge anyone and be like Mr Camping and say anyone is unsaved. We can believe in a lot of wrong doctrines and still be saved. I used to believe in some wrong doctrines, and I already knew I was saved, and had God’s Spirit within me.

I found this interesting testimony on the internet. I think that he stated it clearly when he said he had to decide if date setting was right or wrong.

There was a time when I was a member of the Reformed Bible Church (RBC) in Alameda, CA where Mr. Camping was an elder and also taught Sunday school. I attended church there for over three years, from late 1992 to mid 1996. Mr. Camping always said, “Don’t trust me check out the bible for yourself.” But not many people did.

Mr. Camping’s new “Death of the Church” doctrine reminds me of the time Family Radio listeners as well as the RBC followed his false doctrine of “1994” (the year Christ was supposed to return). At that time, I also believed there was a great probability that Christ was going to return in 1994 but I based it all on a man instead of on the bible alone. Mr. Camping seemed to be very intelligent, so I figured if anyone was going to know, it was going to be him. We all trusted his complex and over spiritualized interpretation of the bible instead of trusting the Lord’s plain and simple message about the matter. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36). Nowhere in the bible did God say His Son was coming in 1994. Moreover, the bible plainly said that NO MAN would ever know. We were used to being spoon fed by Mr. Camping and became conditioned not to study the scriptures for ourselves – that was a big mistake. Mr. Camping started talking about a new date again in 1996. Mr. Jesse Gistand, who was an elder at RBC for a term and also taught the Friday night bible study, warned us about date setting. He publicly exhorted us all to examine whether the whole business of 1994 was sinful or not. If it was, then we needed to repent from it. The issue of date setting needed to be resolved. It was not a matter of “not having all the information” like Mr. Camping was saying; it was a matter of right or wrong. That was when I finally understood that date setting was wrong.

On Sunday morning, May 10, 1996, Mr. Camping announced that any opposition to the idea of figuring out the timing of the Lord’s return would not be tolerated. He canceled the Friday night bible study. I took that announcement very personally. It meant that I could not openly disagree with Mr. Camping. It meant that I could only continue going to church if I remained silent on the issue. That morning I knew that I was never going to attend RBC again – I had no desire to.

The fact is Mr. Camping caused a major division in the church because his date setting doctrine was contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Romans 16:17) Date setting is contrary to the doctrine of Christ. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” (Matthew 24:36).

You posted excellent examples of the spiritually symbolic parables that the Bible told us God teaches us with. These explain the thoroughness of the destruction of the unsaved, as a fire consumes and destroys something forever. Its destruction is eternal and it is unredeemable. Can you present verses that change the definition of “death” to “life”, “dead” to “alive”, “destroy” to “not destroy” as would be necessary to believe the false doctrine of eternal torment? To single out a group of verses and compare them only to each other is the origin of all kinds of apostate gospels, but to compare them to the entire Word is the path to the revelation of Truth and to free us from the superstitions of ancient heathen mythology.

“And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever”. Day and night in eternal torment? Is half of the statement symbolic and the other half literal?

“He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb”. Are the angels and God present in eternal torment…or is eternal torment located in heaven?

“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”. Again, to come up with literal eternal torment is to make half of the verse symbolic and half literal. That is to play semantic acrobatics with the Bible in order to get it to fit preconceived notions of eternal torment that we were all raised with and permeates our society.

Indeed, to read everything the Bible has to say about death and dying and come away with eternal torment is to approach the Word with preconceived notions of hell from the mythological heathen doctrines of the tormented underworld, not the reality of the God of the Bible.

The word “hell” is “sheol” meaning “covering”…used for “grave”. Where is the word that describes a place or condition of eternal torment?

To isolate small groups of verses is to add one’s own doctrine to the Bible. It is not suprising that man struggles against this Biblical principle, for man is resistant to truly die to himself as is necessary for life in Christ.

I was just listening to a sermon from a local pastor and he made the point that the Bible was not inspired by God to become a book of information. The purpose of the Bible is to transform our lives. It is interesting what happens when we make information the goal and not transformation.

There is a dialog recorded in the Bible in two places where a demon is speaking directly to Jesus Christ, where the demon has raised a question and also expresses a concern to Jesus about his future fate of being TORMENTED.

Let’s take a look at these two scriptures:

Matt 8:28-29 (NIV)

“When he (Jesus) arrived at the other side in the region of Gadarenes, two demon possessed men coming from the tombs met him (Jesus). They were so violent that no one could pass by.” One of the demons shouted out and said to Jesus, “What do you want with us Son of God?” “Have you come here to TORMENT us before the appointed time?”

Mark 5:7 (KJV)

“When he (a demon possessed man) saw Jesus approaching from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of Him (Jesus), then he cried with a loud voice and said to Jesus, “what have I to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? “I adjure thee by God, that thou TORMENT ME NOT.”

Now, here’s my question. In this dialog seen in both these scriptures, a demon inside of a man is confronting Jesus Christ, and based on what the demon says, there are at least three (3) things that are readily apparent:

#1
the demon is AWARE that he is going to be tormented sometime in the future.

#2
the demon is asking Jesus NOT to torment him (them).

#3
the demon specifically expresses a concern regarding if his torment is going to occur prematurely? (i.e. before the appointed time in the future).

Now, with that said, out of all the things the demon could have said to Jesus, such as offering Jesus some sort of temptation in an attempt to get Him out of God’s will, and/or misquoting scriptures, etc., why do you suppose that the demon is very clearly preoccupied with his being “tormented”, if his fate is annihilation? If he’s going to be annihilated and cease to exist, why does the demon express a specific concern about this event happening sooner than later?

Also, since the demon is a spirit being, he would logically not have a bible in front of him, nor would he be a student of the bible, when in fact he is an enemy of God and God’s Word. Also, the New Testament Bible and the Book of Revelation had NOT been written yet at the time this dialog occurred between Jesus and the demon.

So again, my question is, why is the demon seen here expressing these kind of specific concerns about his being tormented and how soon??? Keep in mind that demons are only able to express either lies or fears about the Truth of God’s Word. The latter is what this demon is seen doing here in these two scriptures.

I’m not inclined to answer direct questions from you until this forum receives an apology from you for posting under deceptive pretenses with your other aliases, and then calling me a liar for exposing you, as well as calling me a liar about the Jim Jones thing even after I provided the link for all to review. But I’ll respond for the sake of accurate Gospel proclamation.

The demons were simply asking Christ if He was there to torment them before their destruction. Please explain what part of those verses implies eternal torment.

Now here is my question. If no one knows the timing of the end, how did the demons know that it was not yet the appointed time?

If we can choose what is symbolic and a parable, then we can prove anything. I can start teaching the eternal Heaven is a parable…. Is there really gold and pearls and a physical temple in Heaven, like described Revelation 21 and 22? Therefore I conclude that eternal life and Heaven is also a parable, and the whole Bible is a parable, and God does not exist.

Concerning the timing of the end.
I believe as we get closer to the end, many things will happen that the Bible talks about, for example in Ezekiel 38, and the believers will know we are getting closer. The closer we get, the more we will be able to narrow it down. We can not know the exact day and hour.

Even if it was possible to know the day the Lord will return, Mr Camping has the wrong date. His Biblical Calendar of History is wrong. All dates calculated from this incorrect calendar are false, such as 1994, and 2011. Genesis chapters 5 and 11, stand as they clearly read, and the earth is about 6000 years old, if we trust the Bible alone. Mr Camping did not believe secular and scientific evidence would allow for a 6000 year old earth, so he twisted Genesis 5 and 11, to make the earth 13,000 years old. Some people believe that the earth is billions of years old, and say there are long periods of time between the days of creation in Genesis chapter 1.

You are FULL of yourself, and you just revealed that you are someone who is easily offended which the bible clearly warns about. It shows that you have not the Spirit of God, VERY CLEARLY. GRUDGE HOLDER.

Not only that Mr. Augustine, I don’t need you to respond to my posts, and also you are guessing about what you said, but then again, you being as prideful as you are, is the very reason why you are blinded to the Truth and you’re going to remain in your condition until you repent.

I find that it’s of prime importance for there to be faith and love in the house of God. If ye differ with Camping theology or each other, then pray for wisdom and understand that it may come to light. Let go and let God.

Ron K. and Augustine,
Let us take a break for a while, the posts are becoming personal attacks back and forth between you two, and not edifying for anyone else. I think we exhausted our points of view, and we do not agree. The more we get heated, the less likely anyone will come to any truth, no matter how many verses either of us bring up.

Let others like RuthAnn, have a chance to bring up some issues.

RuthAnn asked if the Bible is a book mostly of information or a book to help us with our relationship with God. Foremost, the Bible is for us to learn how to LIVE the christian life, how to have a relationship with God, and how to relate to other people. If we focus on Bible knowledge, we all can get prideful, and hurt others with the truth.
1 Cor 13 says we can have all knowledge, and know all mysteries, but if we have not love, we are nothing. The Bible also says that knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. When our primay focus is on Bible knowledege, we are like the Pharisees, and we are missing the whole point of the God’s Word.

As you see, I answered the question that was posed to me, and asked one in return based on the same passage. The response was an angry, name-calling diatribe of ad hominem attacks, and silence on the question. This is after the poster was exposed trying to deceive us all by self-glorifying his posts through aliases, and making accusations he knew to be false, while claiming to be demonstrating Christian love.

My response was simply to re-ask my question, not attack. To state that someone owes the forum an apology for outrageous conduct is not a personal attack.

Is this turning into one of those forums that will not accept a dissenting viewpoint or productive debate? Same effect as censorship, it would seem.

This is a copy of something I sent a May 21 believer that I have been conversing with. I had to think about all the information that is being thrown back and forth here.

It has been interesting to see the vast amount of information that Family Radio produces. I think that it can be overwhelming when it becomes information for the sake of information. The purpose of the Bible is to transform people. Unless all the information is transforming people’s lives, it becomes just that – information. Take note how many times Family Radio uses the word information and how few times they use the word transformation. Listen to the explanation that is given why 1994 didn’t happen – we didn’t have all the information. When I ask how all this information has transformed your life, the answer always seems to be that now I hunger for more information (i.e. studying my Bible and listening to Harold Camping continually). Is your life consumed with studying for the purpose of having more knowledge to be able to argue your point better or is it to live a transformed life? Do you worry about understanding the latest teachings or do you develop caring relationships with people who need your love? Think about how Jesus, who knew all, related with people and then think about how we, who pretend to know all but really don’t, relate to people. We want to throw mountains of informatioon at them without taking time to even know anything about them. Take time to read all the tracts that are posted on ebiblefellowships website. I don’t think that in all the information, I read anything about living a transformed life. Think about what the fruits of the spirit are – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. That is a life transformed by the Bible.

Augustine cares so VERY MUCH what others think of him, very clearly, and this is seen by his turning to Jim for VALIDATION so that his self-righteousness prevails being RIGHT. He therefore seeks the approval of MEN instead of God. He’s a religious zealot, who just like Mr. Camping, IS ALWAYS RIGHT, AND EVERYONE ELSE IS ALWAYS WRONG.

Anytime someone demands an “apology”, it shows that they are VOID of the Spirit of God, which according to scriptures, says we should overlook an offense, but yet he (Augustine) said the very same slanderous things to me that he’s offended that I said to him.
I in turn continued to offer dialog with Augustine without making the kind of offended remarks that he made to me, and why??..because I was willing to overlook his slander and attacks.

Again, Augustine is a religious pharasiee, HIGHLY OFFENDED, AND ALWAYS RIGHT!, and all of which are clearly signs and symptoms of his spiritual darkness and twisting scripture.

Ok….looks like I’m going to have to do this publicly because going the private route didn’t quite work.

Dr. Ron…you need to work on your bedside manners,seriously. This isn’t WWW or WWF, we’re not here to verbally drive those with an opposing view into the ground. I may not agree with all Augustine may “say” here but will “…defend his right to say it”(quote attributed to Voltaire). What’s with this visceral attitude toward the guy,it smacks of insecurity. Is he accusing you of something you know is true? You know the answer,and haven’t you totally lacked any contrition for it? The end doesn’t justify the means,sorry.

I believe you need a break to go examine yourself and your reasons for being here.

Agreed that one can go philosophical with Scripture and make anything into spiritual symbolism. That is another way that thousands of different doctrines are spawned. I think that is prevented by the Bible itself, by following its own formula of comparing Scripture with itself. Then we can learn what earthly things are symbolic of what spiritual things, and the Bible keeps us “in bounds” so that we don’t adopt an “anything goes” mentality.

Ruth Ann,

I’m not sure the Bible defines itself as only a book to transform lives. I look at what it says, and define it that way. It identifies who God is (in terms to which we can relate). It identifies who we are. It identifies the qualities of God that we can understand (love through mercy, etc). It identifies creation and our condition. It identifies God’s relationship with us and commands for us. Most importantly, it identifies how God redeemed His people. All of this is based on information from the Bible. There is the kind of information that natural man can know, and there is the kind of information that we only understand on a spiritual level after God qualifies us to know it.

One of the effects the Bible has on us is certainly life transformation.

When we read in Daniel that prophecies were sealed up until we got near the end, and now we believe those seals are opening, it becomes a great responsibility to proclaim this information. We feel called to do all we can to obey God’s command to proclaim the Gospel.

I imagine that many of the Family Radio crowd are probably down the wrong path, just as you can find many who are closely involved in many church affiliations who are down the wrong path.

I agree with you about heading down a wrong path by many. I look at the essence of what Jesus taught and what the disciples spoke about. They don’t dwell on meanings of certain words or how many times a word in used in scripture. They had first hand knowledge of what Jesus’ message was and that is what they talked about. The further we are removed from that message, the more the Bible becomes information that doesn’t transform a person. Information might change a person – their focus may be changed, but is their nature changed? The real transformation is when everything that was is different. The fruit of the Spirit is evident in a life that has been transformed by Jesus’ message. In talking with believers of May 21, I find that the transformation to a life bearing the fruit spoken of in the Bible isn’t there. I get weary of hearing all the excuses for not being willing to be obedient to what Jesus taught about loving – our family, our brothers, our enemies. Try treating people the way God wants us to and see if your life isn’t transformed too.

Ruth Ann,
I agree with your postings, of most importance is living the simple, loving Christian Life.

Augustine,
We have talked about many topics for about a year and a half. I believe I gave many scripture verses (that seem clear to me) about the resurrection of believers and unbelievers, Judgment Day, and conscious punishment for sins in the after life. I also sent you my letter explaining in detail why I disagree with Mr Camping about his Calendar of History, and his predictions for the end of the world. Please read my letter and prove it wrong, and get back to me with verses from the Bible to prove it wrong.

Otherwise, I will take a break from repeating the same things over and over with you. We must agree to disagree and pray to God for wisdom.

I believe you are sincere and I am not Judging you whether you are saved or not. I just feel that we disagree, and it is fruitless to keep repeating the same things over and over. I believe you should find a fellowship or church or other group of believers to personally interact with, like the Bible commands.

I think that if we are all totally honest, anyone who says that they are absolutely correct in their interpretation of what happens after death is kidding themselves. None of us has been there. Jesus called us to a way of life on earth. What happens after that is our hope but not our knowledge.

Ruth Ann, I’d say we can know what happens after death in principle, but I’m sure our imagination doesn’t come close to what spiritual existence is like. I think it is impossible for our physical minds to understand the spiritual, which is why the Bible teaches us through physical symbolism; to speak in terms our minds can understand.

This is my second post here and overall, I find that many of the discussions are very interesting. However I think that it is useless to allow the spirit of argumentativeness to prevail in any discussion forum, and all who participate are equally responsible. In regard to this, one individual that clearly stands out to me out as a newcomer is the gentleman Augustine who appears to be the catalyst and propagator for all the bickering going on over things that amount to nothing more than human faults which everyone has, and/or semantics. Due to this, his argumentativeness is largely self-serving, cyclical, pointless, ingenuine, and non-contribuitary.

I would like to contribute to this forum in a meaningful way. However before doing so, I request that this individual Augustine is either closely censored by the Moderator, or that he is banned from this discussion forum altogether.

Hello ….Ivan,welcome. Glad you’ve enjoyed your visit and wish to contribute. No problem with that,just remember this IS a debate forum,and as such,we don’t censor those we happen to disagree with. But if one wishes to pontificate,they can easily set up their own website to do so.

You speak of a “spirit of argumentativeness” here and say all who take part in such are equally responsible,yet you immediately follow with singling one out as being the “heavy”. Sounds Orwellian as in “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”. And if you read the posts from the beginning,you’d realise this individual isn’t a “newbie” ,but has been here nearly from the start.

You wouldn’t happen to be acquainted with a Ron in any way, would you?

This is for all- I’ve stated previously there would be no censoring here, yet in the future those asking for such may find their comments ,not annihilated, but sent to limbo-“moderation hell” ,so to speak,where there will be weeping and banging of keyboard. And that goes for those who wish to flame any and single out individuals for special derision….So it has been written…..so it shall be done.

I think both Ruth Ann and I touched on the questions you had raised previously on the nature of the transition to spiritual existence. I think for the most part, the Bible can teach us the principles of that existence, but must teach us in parables due to our inability to comprehend. It so ingenious to us, yet such a simple operation for God.

To follow up on something you mentioned previously regarding the fact that the apostles didn’t regard how many times words appeared in Scripture, etc…

You are correct, of course, but this was a time before the Word of God was complete, and was still in the process of being written. In fact, their very experiences as they were happening were part of the Word of God, so we are kind of looking at a ship in a bottle effect, so to speak. In answer to their question about the end, Christ even told them that it was not for THEM to know…and I beleive He told them that because it wouldn’t happen in their lifetime, therefore they needn’t be concerned. But it seems that the Bible tells us that for those in whose lifetime the end will occur, it is for them to know.

So I believe there is an extraordinary difference in the way Scripture was to be revealed to us before it was completed, after it was completed, and during the days of the last generation.

Been busy myself-alot of good subtopics coming out from everyone here!

About Ruth Ann’s question times words appear in scripture-if concerning Mr. Camping’s use of word counting and numerology,most of which he derives that from is OT ,which the apostles did have complete in their time….(thoughts)

I like to quickly muddy the waters again-were the apostles not expecting Christs return in their lifetimes…..are there “Time Texts”?

I thought you previously said to Ivan that you were not “censoring” posts. Since that’s what you said, why did you delete his last post?….and I thought I was the only one who saw through your vail of deception and dishonesty with you using various aliases to grand stand your own point of view and deceive the other posters here. What a hippocrite you are, but then again, that’s nothing new.

“…I thought I was the only one who saw through your vail of deception and dishonesty with you using various aliases..”-say what? Uh..RonK/BenG/OJ/Ivan..so far,that we know of.

“…to grand stand your own point of view and deceive the other posters here.” Pot calling the kettle black,aren’t we? Do you like puffing your comments between your online “personalities”? I know you’re really upset you’ve been outed.

If you want a soapbox,as I suggested to “personality” Ivan-you can easily set up your own site/blog-Blogger,Wordpress,Topix,and many more. Or,have you tried and couldn’t keep a thread going due to “personality overload”?

About censoring ,re-read last comment to “Ivan”-

“…I’ve stated previously there would be no censoring here, yet in the FUTURE(that means NOW) those asking for such(like Ivan) may find their comments ,not annihilated, but sent to limbo-”moderation hell”(like Ivan’s) ,so to speak,where there will be weeping and banging of keyboard. And that goes for those who wish to FLAME any and single out individuals for SPECIAL DERISON(like being done to Augustine)….So it has been written…..so it shall be done.”

OK…I “held your hand” a little through that,did it help? Not trying to be harsh,just don’t want to waste any more time or space on this matter.

So Ronnie ,sadly you are quite the rookie,let me suggest another venue for you now(on a similar topic)….and see how long this type of nonsense lasts there:

I would like to hear thoughts on whether God chosing someone automatically means salvation. The nation of Israel is always God’s chosen nation in the OT, yet it did not guarantee salvation. Do we take a bold step in asserting the references in the NT to being chosen is a free ticket to salvation?

Ron K…
Senecus and Augustine are two different people, I have corresponded with each of them on numerous occasions. Senecus is the host of this website, which is opposed to Mr Camping’s latest teachings. Augustine agrees with some of Mr Camping’s latest teachings, so how would you think they are the same person?

Ruth Ann…
God knows who he will save before the world began, and all of these will eventually come to faith in him. However, our responsibility is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and pray to live an honorable life before him. If we come to faith in Him, it is because He has drawn us to himself. Ephesians 2:8-10 declare that faith is a gift of God, and not of ourselves. After we are saved, we still can make choices to live according to His will or not, God’s Spirit helps us. We can not lose our salvation, God will bring chatisement if we rebel or sin willfully.

It is a not an easy thing to understand, but the Bible is clear about this.

I keep hearing from every reformed believer that you can’t understand it but you must agree with it. I think that in looking at all the groups that have begun with a new revelation (Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist to name a few) the common denominator seems to be that they feel that they are the chosen or elect. Does the doctrine of election become a doctrine that encourages people to feel superior to others? They say that they don’t deserve God’s love, but they got it anyway. So are they special in God’s eyes? Why did Jesus commend people when they believed? Did they deserve that commendation if it wasn’t anything that they did? Is the Bible so clear about it or is man clear about it? How does the doctrine of election transform lives? As Camping would say, cry for mercy but it really won’t change anything. Is that what the Bible teaches?

Ruth Ann,
There are very good questions, and hard to understand. The Bible teaches election, however it also teaches that whosever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Mr Camping has a “hyper-Calvanist” fatalist view, which is not scriptural. The Bible commands us to believe on the Lord Jesus, and we must obey without worrying if we are one of God’s elect or not. God promises that whoever confesses Jesus, and believes in their heart in him, SHALL BE SAVED. If we truly believe, it is because God was drawing us to himself.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

John 6:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 1:
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

We must let the Bible speak for itself, and not force ideas into the Bible because we do not understand something, or because it does not make sense to our human minds.

In the old testament, Israel was as a nation, corporately God’s people. Most were unbelievers and displeasing to God. Only Joshua and Caleb entered into the Promised Land. Joshua and Caleb were God’s true believer’s that had faith in Him, like Moses. Moses was a true believer also, and he had great faith in God, but did some things displeasing to God, like striking the rock, so God did not allow him to enter into the promised land.

This is similiar to today, all people who call themselves Christians are corporately God’s people, but only the true believers can begin to be pleasing to Him.

True Believers are not always pleasing to God, and can fall into sin, but we are forgiven. Sometimes unbelievers can do “good works” like helping someone in need, or even serving in Church, but they are not forgiven, and do not have saving faith.

I believe there is so much more to creation, the nature of God, and the spiritual symbolism of what the Bible teaches than we will ever know. Assuming the Bible does contain the deeper spiritual meanings as Harold Camping teaches them, it is still barely scratching the surface.

Ruth Ann,
Once we are saved, all sins past, present, and future are forgiven, and we can not lose our salvation. If we continue in sin after we become saved, we will lose fellowship with God, and eventually God will bring chastisement to bring us back to Him.

Augustine,
Some things in the Bible have symbolic meaning, some things don’t. Even Mr Camping says that if a verse talks directly about salvation, then it does not have a deeper spiritual meaning. For example, John 3:16, does not have a deeper spiritual meaning. Also some historical accounts in the Bible, do not have a deeper meaning. Some stories do have a deeper lesson, such as Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac.
Not every number in the Bible has a deeper meaning, some do. For example, Mr Camping would say that the number 5 means the grace of God. However he also says that the “5 months” in Revelation 9 are the wrath of God. So not everything fits into a neat little system of spiritual meanings. We have to be very careful about proving things with spiritual meanings, because we can make the Bible say anything we want. For example, let those in Judea flee to the Mountains. This has nothing to do with telling people to leave their Christian Bible believing Churches, but that is what Mr Camping says it means.

Losing fellowship means that we feel far from God, and God is not happy with us, because we are living in sin, but that is not losing our salvation. If we can lose our salvation, that means that salvation is based on our works.

This is what I don’t understand about the idea of God chosing a people for himself. If there is only 1 God, and He created all humankind, why is He gracious to some and not to others? You state that if you are in fellowship with God and you sin, He will bring you back to understanding. Why would He only do that for some? I could see the logic if once you were saved, you never sinned against God again. He changed you and now you live as God intends you to live. But really how does that relate to what the purpose of God chosing the children of Israel was? The children of Israel were supposed to be an example for others around them by living God’s ways. They were to draw others to God by their lives. If God has a specific chosen people that bring glory to His name by obeying His rules for living, shouldn’t that also draw people to God? And yet if it does, they would be told that they aren’t allowed in. Why would we be light if the light has no purpose? The elect’s light can never penetrate the darkness, because the darkness is ordained to stay dark.

Man had free will in the garden of eden, after man fell we became spiritually dead, and can not save ourself. We must simply trust in Christ’s work on the cross, and believe in Him. God guides us to believe. We do not have to worry about who is elect or not. We tell people they need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. God promises that all that come to him will be saved. We can know we are saved by God’ Spirit that is in us, but we do not have to try to figure out who else is His elect.

We tell people that they need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Believe what? That He existed? That He lives eternally? When we tell people that they have to believe, what do they have to believe? That we will be saved if we believe that we are His chosen? The problem with that train of thought is that the Jewish people believed that because they were God’s chosen people, they would not be overtaken by the Romans. Remember Jesus’ warning about peace and safety. The leaders told the people that God would take care of them. So what are we telling people to believe? Why will we be saved?

Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Are you saying that what we have to believe is Jesus died and rose again? That would make sense except when Jesus talked to people before he ever went to the cross, he didn’t tell them that they needed to believe he was going to die on a cross and be made alive after 3 days. What was he telling them that they needed to believe? What do we have to believe to have access to eternal life? Harold Camping would say that we don’t have to believe anything at all.

The Gospel is simple. We are sinners and need a saviour, we need to trust Christ as our saviour who paid for our sins on the Cross. Mr Camping and other cults confuse the Gospel. I would recommend not to listen to him, if he is confusing you. We do not have to intellectually agree with any doctrines to be saved.

I think the confusion comes in the definition of “believe”. It is a subjective term, so we have to let the Bible define it. I think that the Bible defines “believe” as exercising the faith that is given to us by God. Man can have his own version of “faith”. It can be faith in his works, in his pastor, in his philosophy of life, etc, that leads him to believe he is faithful as Christ commands, but he is deceived. The faith that qualifies us to believe as Christ commands comes from God. If we exercise our version of faith in Christ, but it is not faith from God, we are not obeying Christ’s command. The ones then that can exercise faith from God are His elect, whom God chose to recieve it.

As far as why God chooses some and not others, God tells us this is His business, using the example of having chosen Jacob and not Esau:

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” Romans 9.

What are the references for the bible defining believe as exercising the faith that God gives us? If God chose Moses to lead the people, don’t you think that God would have given him the faith that you talk about? And yet Moses is rebuked by God for not believing what God told him. Is this a new kind of faith that wasn’t given to Moses?

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” – Ephesians 2

God specifies that the faith of His elect is not “of ourselves” but a gift from God bestowed upon His elect. The unsaved can exercise faith, but it is faith “of themselves”; faith on their terms.

Moses would have had the same kind of faith the elect receive today. There was no Word of God for Moses to examine to learn about the nature of God and man as we have today other than what God spoke directly to Moses. Being blessed with faith doesn’t mean that one’s sinful nature is gone. We continue to struggle and often recieve chastisement from God when our sinful nature causes us to resist Him, as happened with Moses. So we saw with Moses the same rebellious nature that we have, even though Moses had direct commune with God.

Romans 3 For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his GRACE AS A GIFT, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This is my point. If we think that God takes care of it all, if I have no part in choosing to follow, my commitment to follow is lukewarm at best. I have no power to give myself eternal life. I depend solely on God to do that. I believe that God can do that and so I also believe that the way that He has commanded us to live is the way I choose to live. When I have put my hand to the plow with that mindset, I don’t waiver. The longer I live the way Jesus taught, the more I see the rewards of living that way. My faith increases as I live how God wants us to live.

RuthAnn,
If we overthink everything like Mr Camping does, everything becomes confusing. We are saved by grace, and God wants us to live a holy life. To live a life pleasing to God, we try to obey His rules, and ask from help from the Holy Spirit. God is please when we obey Him. You are correct. Simply live a simple life and love others, and God will be pleased, we have a responsibility to God to live like he wants. Do not overthink everything. Mr Camping is very confusing, he is a hyper-Calvanist fatalist, along with a false prophet, cult leader, and false gospel teacher, so stop listening to him, and live a simple Christian Life loving others.

Camping teaches the most basic and simplistic Gospel message because he teaches from the format of letting only Scripture interpret Scripture. This is where we find simple truth. We may think it is confusing if it negates the gospels we grew up with. We may think God’s plan is confusing when we don’t understand its marvelous simplicity. The confusion is found in the many Gospel versions heard in churches today because they are the Gospels of men and Satan. This is because Satan comes as an angel of light (messenger of Truth/Christ).

Satan does come as an angel of Light, through some churches, and also through Harold Camping, who is a false prophet, and a cult leader, and a false teacher who teaches the heresy of annihilation like the Jehovahs Witnesses Cult, and teaches “Hope you are saved”, whereby we can not know if we are saved.

Jim,
Thanks for all your thoughts. I have said what I intend to say. If Augustine wants to follow Mr. Camping, he is making that choice. It is a little bit like a drug addict. It is so sad to see someone destroy themself and you want to help, but the choice is theirs. I will live my life for God and I know that you will too, Jim.

I say these things to try to help people, not to attack mr Camping. I knew someone who committed suicide in 1994, because of Mr Camping’s teachings, and many lives that were ruined. The Christian life is very simple, live a life of love towards others, Jesus says that this is the fulfillment of the law.

Luke 10:
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

If all we knew was that Christ went to the Cross for our sins, and we loved others, and God, this would be pleasing to God, that trying to attain to all this knowledge, and doctrines.

The Bible itself teaches the unsaved will be destroyed forever. It teaches this in clear literal language, and gives symbolic parables about it. These dozens of verses outlining solid doctrine from Genesis to Revelation won’t go away by being ignored. To do so is to give the traditions of men more validity than the Word of God.

If we look at the church affiliations of all those who commit suicide (or any sin), then by the same standard, we have to discredit them all.

To refuse to study the Bible for God’s revelation because we feel we know all we need to know is to censor the Bible.

This is a little old, but seems to need repeating. If agreeing with Camping means I’m “following” him, and you state it as a fault, then you must also fault yourselves for being “followers” of each other.

I will agree to disagree. There are many clear verses that teach, the resurrection of believers and unbelievers, conscious Judgement Day, on the very last day when Christ returns, and punishment for sins in the after life. These are some of the most basic of Christian doctrines. So I will have to disagree, and take a break from repeating this same information over and over again.
God Bless,
Jim

Hi, I am new to this thread. Tried to read as much as possible to catch up. I’ve been listening to FR since 1998 when I first came here from Eurorpe. Never experienced a Christian Radio Station and was totally thrilled. Slowly the heresy crept and I was troubled by it. I know many good bible teachers left FR as well, because they did not agree with the gospel according to Camping. I listen a lot to the Open Forum and many of the people who call in to try to convice HC of his error are usually cut off, or talked over. It’s really troubling.

The latest heresy I heard from him about was about Mark 13:32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” HC claims that “the Son” spoken of here is really Satan, and not Jesus. I was shocked when I first heard it. Any comments?

Hi demahe,
I have not heard about that one yet! I don’t listen to Family Radio that much anymore. The Son in Mark 13:32 is definitely not Satan. Mr Camping used to teach the Jesus was the Son, and that he did not know how bad the cross was, and that the day and hour were referring to Jesus’ judgement on the cross.

I believe Jesus now knows when he is returning, since he is also God and in Heaven. I heard some say that the Son could be referring to us as sons of God. Also it could mean that Jesus did not know when he was coming back before the Cross. I am not positive what it means. Contary to what Mr Camping believes, it is OK to admit we do not know everything that the Bible teaches.

Mr Camping is getting more and more delusional with his teachings. I pray this will all end, after 2011 passes by. Family Radio may disintegrate after 2011, because it is listener supported, and who will contribute after the failed prediction?

Yes, that’s what is being taught now. I just started hearing it. It gets weirder to closer we get to 2011. HC seems to be going off the deep end. He kind of reminds me of that guy in “A Beautiful Mind”. That guy thought he had all figured out, being a code reader etc, and that the CIA hired him to help protect the US against the enemy. Did you ever watch that movie? Anyway, Camping seems to be just as delusional, and that is very sad, because he started off as a solid Christian. Whatever happened to him?
Have you ever heard of this new Christian Radio Station that plays conservative Christian Music and has other fine programs/sermons throughout the day? Redeemer Broadcasting is the name. I live in NJ so I am not able to listen to it on the radio, but you can always listen to it online. Here is the link if you want to check it out. Enjoy and God bless.http://www.redeemerbroadcasting.org/index.php

Hello Demahe,welcome. Glad you read some past comments on the thread,good to be informed. Yes, sad that Harold continues to become more aberrent as the date approaches. Some of us here have listened to FR on and off for past 20 yrs. or more,so we’ve witnessed the changes (decline) first hand.

Thank you for informing us of that new station,suprise you can’t receive it in NJ (looks like its got some transponders coming down from lower up state NY)-may be able to in my neck of the woods.

Thanks for the welcome. I am from Germany, and came here in April 1998. We don’t have this type of Christian Radio Station over there, only short sermons on a Sunday or so, but nothing as extensive as here. America is truly blessed, and I felt very, very fortunate to be able to listen to Christian Radio 24/7. Redeemer Broadcasting cannot be heard in my neck of the woods, I’ve tried, so I just listen online whenever I have a chance.

That radio station you are talking about broke away from Family Radio a few years ago. If you read the “About” section of their website, you will read about it. It is a radio station that adheres to reformed teachings, like Mr Camping used to teach. In New Jersey there is Family Radio and WAWZ 99.1 FM in central Jersey. There is 570am talk Christian radio, and 103.1 Bridge FM, these can only be heard near NYC and surrounding areas, I hear them when I am commuting near work. There are many good Christian Radio Stations in south jersey, in far north Jersey, Upstate NY, but not much where I am, in north central Jersey.

I (still) listen to Family Radio, especially for their edifying Christian music, scripture reading, book reading and other little nidbits throughout the day. HC unfortunately now takes up a lot of airtime where other good men used to speak and are now gone.
99.1 has become very secular, and I hardly listen to it during the day. They have some evening programs worth listening to though. 570 AM is hard to get on my dial and I hear a lot of static so it’s not a good listening experience, and I believe Bridge FM can be heard in the parts further south, not sure, but I cannot get it on my dial. I am pretty much stuck with FR.

God has unsealed the Scriptures near the end of time as promised in order to allow us to sound the warning of His approach. People who cannot release the religious traditions of men simply dimiss us and cling to their traditions.

I am convicted to believe God, even when He shatters everything I have ever been taught. In the light of God’s truth, the religious traditions of men are exposed for what they are.

People use Mark 13:32 to claim Christ is ignorant and not really God, and yet they call us blasphemous.

The Bible shows otherwise, and I will go with what God reveals over what man’s best guesses are. The Bible tells us there are those whom Christ will overtake as a theif in the night because they do not see Him coming. These are those who follow their churches who believe they are safe. Others will not be overtaken because they will know what time He is coming, will warn others, and will be disregarded and ridiculed.

7. September 24, 1995 – Camping prediction # 7 – Camping claims this is “Watch # 2” – Camping claims that there is Biblical evidence of Christ returning “383 days” after September 6, 1994. Camping also claims that September 24, 1995 is 721 + 91 Ceros(A ceros is little over 18 years – 223 lunar cycles or revolutions. A ceros is the complete revoluation of the sun, moon, stars and planets) – Camping claims that these revolutions can predict the end. Camping also states that if you divide the 2300 days of Daniel 8 by the number “6” you get 383. Thus, according to Camping, you can add 383 days to September 6, 1994 and come to September 24, 1995. September 24, 1995 ends the magic 383 day period.

9. April 3, 1996 – Passover (Watch # 3)- Camping prediction # 9 – Camping claims that there is Biblical evidence of Christ returning 191 days after September 25, 1995 on the Passover.

10. May 3, 1996 – Camping prediction # 10 – Camping claims that there is a 30 day grace period after April 3, 1996 which Christ can return.

====================================================

And I will add this verse myself:

Deut 18:21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— (22) when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Did you check to see if this is true? If so, it’s incredible how many false predictions he made. It is even more amazing to see how many people actually still follow him. He is a powerful man for sure, and the Bible warns us of these kind of people, especially in the last days.

I underlined Deuteronomy 18:21 in my Bible, and I am not afraid of HC predictions of the end of the world in 2011. For all I know the Lord could return in 2009 or 10, or 20 or…. God cannot be put in a box; He is bigger than even our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9).

Our attitude needs to be that of an expectant up-looker, waiting for His imminent return at any moment, being about His business, living a sanctified life, and glorifying Him at any occasion. That’s the attitude of a good servant as described in Matthew 24:44 – 47. When we live that way, nothing can shake us and we are ready to go when the Master calls.

Great points Demahe! You hit the nail right on the head! Deuteronomy 18:21 tells us clearly not to fear these people that say “thus saith the Lord.” Furthermore you sealed the deal with the Isaiah 55:8,9 which clearly begin with,
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

Keep defending the truth even when false prophets try to distort it!
GBU

Amen Carlos, and we certaily have to continue praying for those who are falling for predictions of false prophets, that the Lord may open their eyes.

I also wonder at what time of May 21, 2011 would the Lord return? What I mean is this: if it is May 21 11:59 p.m. on one side of the globe, it is May 20 11:59 p.m at the other side of the globe. So what time would the Lord return so that it would be May 21, 2011 regardless on what part of the globe you are on? I hope I made myself clear, but it is certainly a valid question, I think.

Interesting you should mention this regarding the time of day of the rapture on 5/21/11. Christ says that some will be working in the fields, and some will be in bed asleep when it occurs. This shows a picture of a worldwide rapture occuring with daytime on one side of the planet and nighttime on the other.

“My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; so that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding, Yea if thou criest after knowledge and liftest up thy voice for understanding; if thou seekest her as silver and searchest for her as for hid treasures; then thou shall understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord giveth wisdom. Out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. The shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity, yea, every good path”. – Proverbs 2: 1-6, 9

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will beno end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

“By their fruits shall ye know them” Mt 7:20; “Now the works of the flesh are evident….jealosy, wrath, contentions, seditions, heresies, envyings…” Ga 5:19->21; “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control;…..” Ga 5:22->23; “But the wisdom from above is first pure, peacable, gentle [and] reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy” Jas 3:17; “Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not: charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up” 1Co 13:4; “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into the things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind” Col 2:18; “But you have an unction from the Holy One; and know all things.” 1Jo 2:20; “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” 1Jo 4:1; “If any man lack wisdon, let him ask of God, who giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” Jas 1:5; “These [things] I have written you concerning them that seduce you. But the annointing ye have received from Him abidith in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same annointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him” 1Jo 2:26,27; “For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God an men, the man Jesus Christ.” 1Ti 2:5;

You don’t want Harold Camping scaring you into thinking if you disagree with him you disagree with God. There need only be One between you & God: “the man Jesus Christ”. Remember, Harold interprets the Word, and so do we. However, he says “the Bible says” in order to scare you into believing him (i.e. if you don’t, then you are ‘rebelling against God’). Harold does NOT want you to recognize that he is INTERPRETING/TRANSLATING the Bible to you. He doesn’t want you to focus on trusting in GODS SPIRIT AT WORK IN YOU (sure, he’ll say “don’t trust me…trust God”, but that’s only an after-statement – that is NEVER his main message). Instead, he wants your mind to be occupied with thoughts about his (Camping’s) studies!. Trust in the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see and ears to hear (1Jo 2:26,27; 1Ti 2:5); Trust in the LORD – not your own NOR Camping’s understanding (Pr 3:5);

I live in the same town with Camping, and fellowshiped with him for a time, and for most every time I’ve seen him, and seen him respond to people in real life, I’ve seen a huge deficit in the fruits of the Spirit (Ga 5:19->23). He is most often contentious, impatient, and plain old grumpy! He is quick to speak, and slow to listen (Ja 1:19). Why does that matter? 1Jo 4:1.

“The fear of man bringeth a snare: but he who putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe” Pr 29:25; “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing doth not follow, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him” De 18:22.

We are to fear God – not Camping. The fact, by God’s word, is that Camping is a false prophet. How many lies does it take before someone is a liar? How many emphatic predictions does Camping need to make before he is a false prophet? “1994?” coupled with time-after-time emphatic “I’VE done so much research…God has given ME so much insight…I’VE worked on this for years….lot’s of other people agree with ME so it must be true….so many paths point to it…it’s hard to imagine the end coming after Oct, or Jan, or Dec, or ….” etc, simply communicated “the end will occur in 1994”. To interpret those statements otherwise is simply devious and deceptive and furthers the works of the “father of lies”.

I sat, Sunday after Sunday, in the Alameda Reformed Bible Church coming up on the so-called end in 1994, and heard these words from Campings mouth, again and again. His constant emphasis was on keeping everyone convinced that he had done his homework, and therefore this was surely going to be the end.

In terms of humility, meekness, grace, mercy, patience, longsuffering….nope – those were/are not characteristics of his behavior towards people. NOBODY could ever exercise authority over him – he was ALWAYS right (in his eyes).

As several posts have already stated, I’ll state again: Be ready – the end may be tonight, tomorrow, next year, whenever. THAT is the CLEAR message of the Bible. Examine yourselves NOW, if ye be in Christ. TODAY if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts. PREACH JESUS CHRIST, and HIM CRUCIFIED for our sins – this is the GOOD NEWS!!!!!

Interesting post Brad,and welcome. The first here from someone who attended his bible teachings while he was at Alameda Reformed Bible Church. Another here sat under him also,in other venues. The word “contentious” keeps showing up by those who have interacted with him. Sad that he feels beyond correction. Good scriptural reference concerning the fruits.

You are correct,as stated,the end can come at anytime ,and I include death in this equation also-therefore be ready.

Thanks for the post and the email Brad. God Bless you and your family, keep the faith, and live in the peace and comfort of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is crystal clear we are to always be ready to die or for Christ to return. In a couple of years from now, 2011 will pass, and maybe Mr Camping will pass on, and hopefully this nightmare will end. I hope Family Radio will be reformed, but God may bring Judgement on it, and allow it to be dismantled, because it is listener supported, and funds will drop off after the false prophecy of 2011. I pray for all who have been affected by these many false teachings, that God will bring them to the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God Bless,
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Does anyone know where Harold Camping was born and what church he came up in during his youth? It has been suggested that he came out of the Dutch Reform Church, however, I’ve heard others say that he was previously a Seventh-Day Adventist? Is this correct? I’m trying to understand the roots of his doctrine and if it became modified through the years based on various doctrinal influences he may have been to exposed to throughout his life.

Welcome Dianne , the short answer to your first question is Boulder,Col. July 19,1921 and was raised in the Dutch Reformed Church(Calvinist)-and this is the denomination he departed from,in more ways than one.
Many think he came out of other denominations or even cults because his Biblical views cover a wide spectrum ,such as now he believes in annihilation; a la Jehovah Witness like.

Re-read my post at top “Into the Woods” gives you a brief bio of Mr. Camping. There’s a wealth of info on him on the web. Here’s a link from San Fran Chronicle (he’s gone main stream) to article about May 21,2011-

“A study of the history of Mr. Camping’s teaching reveals that he has been obsessed with Christ’s second coming as well as working with dates and chronologies. When it became apparent that he was forming a following of his own within a local Christian Reformed Church, he was asked not to teach his views on the return of Christ or face possible ecclesiastical discipline. Rather than submit to the church, he chose to leave the church and form the Alameda Reformed Bible Church, in Alameda, CA. He became its leader and they sought to join with some Reformed denomination. This attempt was unsuccessful for a number of reasons, especially due to Mr. Camping’s use of an allegorical method of the interpretation of Scripture. Furthermore, for many years he has decried the liberalism and Pentecostalism that had entered the church. Yet, while he taught that the seeking of “signs and wonders” was unbiblical, he has used this new interest as a “sign” that the church was increasingly apostate. Although he claims to hold an amillennial view of eschatology, his latest teaching seems to draw heavily from dispensational premillennialism.”

He’s been ,as they say ,”all over the map” with his theories. Again, this is NOT a personal attack on Mr. Camping’s person (I think I’ve made this clear in previous posts), but a critique of his teachings and “techniques” .

Hello all. The wonderful thing about this message is that it does not belong to Harold Camping, but it is God’s Word to us all. Of the thousands of people spreading this message, detractors find fault with the one who has the largest audience. There are now dozens of websites and several books not written by Harold Camping presenting further information that this Gospel message is correct.

There was a time in history when the doctrine of election was taught publically by only one man, then two, then thousands, and now accepted by millions to be correct doctrine…because it was at that point in history that God wanted man to understand it. Even though these first few were harshly persecuted for it. God is doing the same today. So this is not Camping’s word. It is most assuredley God’s Word. Our attitude needs to be as the Ninevites were. Not defiantly sleeping in darkness as the Bible describes those who deny this message. When your spiritual eyes and ears have been opened, these truths are marvelously and abundantly clear in every book of the Bible. God bless all.

Thank you for your statements Augustine. They are a very good example of inference used in a deceptive ways.

For example, “this message is that it does not belong to Harold Camping, but it is God’s Word to us all”. Your INTERPRETATION of God’s Word is your message – it is NOT GOD’S WORD itself!

Another example: “There are now dozens of websites and several books not written by Harold Camping presenting further information that this Gospel message is correct”. Clever try!

First, the number of people believing something does not prove the belief is true/correct. The fact others are led astray by Camping doesn’t make his message correct. Multitudes in Germany believed it was true/right/correct to exterminate the Jews, but that didn’t make it right! Therefore, it is immaterial how many people believe your “message”.

Second, you call your INTERPRETATION of a date/time for Jesus 2nd coming as “this Gospel message”. This is just your way of trying to make it sound so extremely important. A date has nothing to do with the Gospel – the Gospel is simply Jesus Christ crucified for our sins.

Next, your section with “…were harshly persecuted for it…” continues the deception. Here’s an illustration:
1. The righteous will suffer persecution.
2. The wicked will suffer persecution.
3. Since the Campingites suffer persecution, they are automatically: ?1 or ?2

Well, of course you want us to believe (without thinking first) that the answer is #1. Of course, this is simply faulty reasoning. Here’s an example to show it:
a. A caucasian stole the groceries last night.
b. A caucasian stole my car.
–> Therefore, caucasians are theives.

The conclusion is obviously incorrect, yet that is exactly what you use to justify the “righteousness” of you Campingites – i.e. you suffer persecution, therefore what you are sayinig must be righteous.

Finally, your “Not defiantly sleeping in darkness as the Bible describes those who deny this message.” statement. Another devious inference. You again infer “this message” as “this Gospel message”, but add this is the same as those who defy God’s messages (in the BIBLE). Wow, that’s really twisted, but for the casual reader, you’re hoping to scare them into thinking that if they defy YOUR MESSAGE of the world ending in 2011, they are no different than those who defy GODS MESSAGEs (i.e. the Gospel message) communicated in the Bible.

Why you are resorting to these “tactics” to try and get YOUR message out? Shouldn’t your “yea” be “yea” and “nay” “nay”?

I understand your reaction. I’m not suggesting truth by association. I’m showing that the premise that this teaching begins and ends with Harold Camping is a flawed premise. If you read Senecus’ intro to the forum, that seems to be the premise presented.

As far as interpretation, when you let the Bible interpret itself, you free yourself from the biases, interpretations, and false doctrines of men, no matter how long they have been taught throughout church history. Of course, God alone guides us to Truth through His Word. I wouldn’t know how to come up with an interpretation of God’s Word. Many men think they do, and that is why we have thousands of false gospels today.

The righteous are persecuted by the unsaved world, and the wicked are persecuted by God. I’m not sure what your confusion was on that.

As I proclaim this message to everyone I know and print and distribute tracts and CD’s with this information, I get all kinds of reaction. Some of them are exactly as the Bible describes. We are commanded by God to send out this warning. What God does with it is His sovereign will.

Augustine, you say many things in your response, but the following few I’d like to address right away:

You say “I’m showing that the premise….is a flawed premise”. Doesn’t matter, the way you are using that information is to try and gain credibility for your position.

Worse yet, when you follow that with a claim that it is “the Gospel Message”, you are immediately bringing a false Gospel! The “secret knowledge” that has been discovered that 2011 is the end IS NOT the GOSPEL – the TRUE GOSPEL is JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR OUR SINS – nothing more! It has nothing to do with a date for the end of the world.

If you speak the exact words from God’s Holy Bible, then you can claim “let the Bible interpret itself” rightly. But, again, through inference you try to claim your INTERPRETATION (i.e. the words you ADD to explain the secret meaning YOU think you see in HIS WORDS – ie. that 2011 is the end) are on an equal level – which they are NOT.

You say “I wouldn’t know how to come up with an interpretation of God’s Word”. Maybe this is why you don’t understand my point – you can not distinguish between YOUR understanding and what GOD is actually saying. Therefore, to you, they are one in the same. Therefore, YOU bring this FALSE GOSPEL.

You say “…I’m not sure what your confusion was on that”. Absolutely no confusion here with me. Rather, your original statements of “..even though these first few were harshly persecuted for it” were trying to lead us readers to believe (through inference) that ‘the righteous are persecuted…us Campingites are being persecuted…therefore, us Campingites are righteous in our message we proclaim’.

Finally (for the moment), there is no command to send out YOUR MESSAGE of 2011. I’m sure you’ll quotes something like Elijah and the watchman, but that only applies to a message ACTUALLY FROM GOD. It does NOT apply to MAN’s messages.

Your (and Harold’s) 2011 message is a man-made WORKS GOSPEL. Why? Because to understand it, and therefore believe it, requires you take the ENOURMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME to research all the CONVOLUTED logic. Otherwise, you’re left with two basic choices: 1) Believe it at more face value (which is obviously wrong); 2) Do that extensive research, for the hope that you’ll come to believe it, and that’ll get you a ticket into the ‘I COULD be saved club’. You have more than strongly inferred that ‘anybody that doesn’t believe it is not saved’. Without tremendous work, nobody can come to believe it – therefore, you have a WORKS GOSPEL.

Finally, I just can’t leave your closing remarks alone. You say “I get all kinds of reaction. Some of them are exactly as the Bible describes”. What you are really saying is: ‘the elect receives and accepts that 2011 is the end; the wicked do not receive this message’ – AND you have already called this the “Gospel Message”….how deceptive!

“For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” John 3:17. This is the GOOD NEWS – THIS is the TRUE GOSPEL.

There is no victory over death without the resurrection. The Gospel message is Christ’s redemption of us, including His resurrection. I certainly acknowledge the resurrection as part of the Gospel message. I cannot dissect part of the good news of Christ’s death, resurrection, and promised return, and proclaim only certain parts while leaving others out. He has now revealed the timing of His return.

Those who see Him coming are commanded to send forth the warning. I cannot make anyone hear His command and obey it. I can only obey it myself. If I sound the warning and men pay no heed, the Bible says they do so at their own peril. If men who do not hear His command criticize my obedience to Him, am I to obey them when they say, “there is no command?”

As far as studying the Bible for the truths God hid in the Bible, Christ specifically said He spoke in parables to hide truth from the unsaved.

“And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?”

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter”. -Proverbs 25:2

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

“Who is as the wise man? and who knoweth the interpretation of a thing? a man’s wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed. I counsel thee to keep the king’s commandment, and that in regard of the oath of God. Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him. Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou? Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment”.

I don’t believe that we are saved because we did the work of studying the Bible correctly for truth. I believe we understand the truths of the Bible when God saves us, or is drawing us to salvation, or when He is ready to reveal it in His good time.

Thank you Brad for seeing things as they are. The message is Harold Camping’s and not God’s.

From HC’s book, The End of the Church Age.

Chapter 13 Why Obedience is Important

“None of the Bible is Subject to Our Rational Thinking”

“The fact is, none of the Bible is subject to mankind’s rational thinking. It is not reasonable that God spoke and brought this beautiful universe into existence. It is not reasonable that God would take on a human nature so that He could save a number of rebellious humans, and so on. We are never to make any teachings of the Bible subject to the rational, reasonable thinking of our minds. We are simply to obey. If we do not obey, we can be sure that we have failed this test that God has given to mankind.”

HC defines blind obedience in his own words. That is his message and it always has been. Don’t question me, have you studied as many hours as I have? If you haven’t, then how dare you question me.

Jesus message was never what HC calls the gospel. Let God’s words speak for themselves. I was reminded of the scene from Fiddler on the Roof where the rabbi was asked what the scriptures said on a matter. He read the scripture and let God’s words speak for themselves. He didn’t change them, he just declared this is what they said.

Guys,
Both of you are bringing up good points. I think Augustine is not saying we need to believe in 2011 to be saved, but if we are saved that God will open our eyes to it. But that in itself implies that if we don’t believe it, than we are unsaved!!!!

Some people may not fully understand predestination and election, and still be saved, etc. Some people in the world do not have Bibles, but a missionary told them to believe in Jesus, and they are saved, and they know nothing else. We are not saved by holding to correct doctrines. Only Christ’s work on the Cross saves us.

Mr Camping’s 2011 prediction is wrong because his Calendar is wrong, I have thoroughly studied this issue. I have sent my letter to you Augustine, can you please show me where I am wrong, if you can not, then we must conclude that Mr Camping’s Calendar is wrong, and all dates associated are wrong, including his previous 1994 prediction. I have sent my letter also to Brad N. and many others, NO ONE has proven anything wrong in my study, including Mr Camping.

Mr Camping started with the premise that the world could not be only 6000 years old, because of scientific and secular history, then went into the Bible and came up with a complicated Calenday scheme to strecth the world to 13000 years. He also uses secular dates such as 931 BC, and other secular dates that can not be proven absolutely accurate. He also believes Jesus was born in 7 BC, and he was about 38 when he started his ministry, when the Bible says he began to be about 30 years old. There are many, many, many, errors in Mr Camping’s “Calendar”. He uses this wrong calendar to predict the end in 1994, and now 2011, which is 100% wrong. We are not in the final tribulation period yet.

So Augustine, we are not just “mockers” not willing to face Christ’s return. I am ready and willing for him to come back today, and am ready to die today.

Mr Camping has many false doctrines, including “Hope” you are saved, annihilation, all churches and christians that attend a church are under the rule of Satan. These are serious heresies from the pit of Hell.

So Augustine, if you want to continue to believe in 2011, at least read my letter thoroughly and please prove me wrong. If you can not then you must conclude there is a chance that your are wrong.

If any one is interested in my letter that I gave to Mr Camping proving his Calendar is wrong, please email me.

Great posts by you all,and hello again ,Augustine.
Concerning my premise,that Mr. Camping is the soul repository of this “brand” of eschatology,stands.
You,as well as others in different forums, have claimed of-in Mr.Camping’s words “others-many,many others…”who have come to believe as you have. Yet no one cites any one person or website by name,can you give examples?
Of those who have ‘Independently’ come up with the same convoluted calculations,operative word is independent-not those “parroting” Mr. Camping,of whom there are many.

Ral, yes indeed – let God’s beatiful gracious words speak, unadulterated by man’s wisdom. Let God be proven true, though every man be a liar! Great scene from Fiddler on the Roof!

God could come at any time for me: tonight while driving home, tomorrow, May 2011, …..whenever! I am to be busy spreading the TRUE GOSPEL – NOT some man-made date. The POINT of the Gospel is the work of Jesus Christ in our heart, and the FOCUS of my effort needs to be on the person of Jesus Christ: Col 2:19 “He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow”. The Gnostics of that time had lost connection with the Head – Jesus Christ. The Campingites (who hold to MANY of the Gnostic ‘secret knowledge’ traditions) have also lost connection with the Head – Jesus Christ.

Jim, I absolutely agree with your point: the bottom-line is to determine the validity of “the message” of 2011.

Beyond that, I also emphasize (as in my earlier posts), the METHODS the “Campingites” use are deceptive – this too is a great problem with this whole topic. Those METHODS are typical of cults. Those METHODS strive to “prove” content as correct, not because the facts prove them, but because the METHODS make the SOUND correct.

In Augustine’s last post, his first para ends with: “He has now revealed the timing of His return”. This is another deceptive tactic: so-called ‘guilt-by-association’. The whole paragraph talks about not leaving out any part of the (Gospel) message – which is obviously correct. But, Augustine want us to automatically accept the Campingite claim that 2011 is a PART of the TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE – which it is not. Augustine has done this same thing in his previous posts.

Furthermore, Augustine says: “I cannot make anyone hear His command and obey it”. Again, he wants us reading this to automatically accept 2011 as “His (God’s) command”, so that if we don’t hear it, or ‘hear’ it, but not obey it, we are rebelling against GOD. Terribly adulterating God’s true Word!

Next, the whole section in Augistine’s post about “…that seeing they may see and not perceive” etc. is another method to try and prove the 2011 ‘message’ is true, not because of the facts, but because a person either denies or accepts it.

Here’s an exposition on what Augustine is doing here:

Augustine, you say, unsaved people deny your message – BECAUSE they are “blinded” to the (‘supposed’) truth of your message.

Consider this:

Unsaved people deny some true messages
Saved people deny some true messages
Unsaved people deny some false messages
Saved people deny some false messages

A person accepting or denying a message does not make it true or false.

A person accepting or denying messages does not make that person “blind”. It works ONLY the other way around: A person blinded to a truth will deny that truth.

Any person’s response to any message does not prove that message right or wrong!

De 29:29 “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law”. The Campingites message of 2011 is NOT revealed by the Bible, it is NOT contained in there. The timing of His second Coming is a secret thing which DOES NOT belong to us to know.

Jim – I’m with you all the way on your challenge to Augustine. I’ve read your breakdown (THANK YOU for sending it to me!), and I totally agree (through other studies as well) that the Campingites can NOT prove their so-called “KEY” that the generations listed in Genesis are not direct father-son relationships. Without that key, much of the 2011 ‘mystery’ falls apart. There are also many other flaws in the whole 2011 message. I’m working on a summary of my findings that I’d like to post and ask for comment/correction.

To summarize, I want to emphasize two things:

1) Jim, I believe this is your last emphasis: We need to determine if the 2011 message is correct through careful study of the Bible (…and ‘boy does it take lots of study to try and navigate it!)

2) We need to proclaim the TRUE Gospel PLAINLY, and not resort to trickery/subtelty/inferences to prove our position.
1 Cor 2:4 “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”
2 Cor 4:2 “But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God”

Moreover, A GRAVE WARNING TO ALL OF USE, and ESPECIALLY those who hold to 2011:
Rev 22:18 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”

May God speak plainly to our hearts through His UNADULTERATED Word – Praise be to HIM ALONE!

I have read all the posts on this site in detail and have also performed a considerable amount of independent research on Mr. Camping’s ministry and his Bible Answer Man-Family Radio Program, and have come to the conclusion that Mr. Camping has unquestionably departed from the true faith preached in the Bible by the apostle Paul at some point in his life or ministry. He does not adhere to the plain and simple but all powerful Gospel message, and the ONLY focus of that message is what John the Baptist preached immediately before the appearance of Jesus Christ at the Jordan River for baptism at the commencement of his public ministry. That message was and still is “repent, turn from sin, put your faith in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.” The result of anyone obeying that simple message is Eternal Life in God’s Kingdom forever. Someone can be wrong and/or not understand various bible doctrines, but still be saved if they have obeyed the simple Gospel message and have put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever has done that, needs to be watching and waiting for his return which could happen at any second which is the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins who’s lamps were trimmed with oil, which was symbolic of them being saved and the Holy Spirit living inside of them. Anyone who is saved and is watching and waiting for Jesus Christ’s return, needs to be sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with as many people as possible throughout their lives and helping them through prayer and exhortation to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone, not some crazy predicted date set by some preacher. This is NOT biblical. Christians should know the approximate time of the return of Christ which is indeed biblical, but the exact date and hour is not just as the bible says. Not only this, when Jesus Christ returns, it’s going to occur all over the world simultaneously due to God’s Omnipresence nature, everyone throughout the entire world will simultaneously know he has returned in all parts of the world at the exact same moment, which furthermore shows that a date setting scheme is INCORRECT due to time zones in existence, i.e. May 21, 2011 in the U.S. at 12:01 am for example will NOT be the same date and time in another part of the world, and this alone reveals the absurb fallacy of this kind of thinking. It is a man-made doctrine, Mr. Camping’s doctrine through his elaborate application of numerology and mishandling scriptures. Lastly, I personally feel that Mr. Camping’s date setting has more to do with some kind of marketing thing for his ministry and maintaining a following, especially for donations to his radio ministry. I have learned that Mr. Camping has applied for additional licenses for his radio station that extend beyond May 21, 2011, and this fact brings into question his motive for his known history of toying with date setting for the return of Christ.

Dianne,
Excellent summary. Just to add what you have said… I believe Christ has commanded to watch for certain things concerning His return. For example, Israel back in their land, the Gospel in every nation, certain Middle East conflicts such as described in Ezekiel 38,39. In Matthew, Mark, Luke, Revelation, it hints that there may be certain physical catastrophies, “waves roaring, earthquakes, famines, plagues, etc…” So I believe we are probably pretty close to Christ’s return. But the Bible is crystal clear that we can not know the exact day and hour. God wrote this to protect us from the multitude of date-setting cults throughout the Church History. However many, many people have been deceived over the last 2000 years into thinking they know the exact day by some cult leader. This is very dangerous and many lives have been ruined or lost. Many sell everything they have before the date, and then are in great despair afterwards and some commit suicide. So if we just obey Christ, and always be ready to die, or for His return, how can we be decieved? If it was God’s plan for Christ to return in 2011, so be it!!!! That would not upset me in anyway. However I believe that we have not entered the Final Tribulation period yet, which will last a few years, therefore I strongly believe that the world will make it past the year 2011.

Like Dianne said we are to live the simple loving Christian life, sharing the Gospel with others, so they can be saved, if they are saved, then it does not matter when they will die or when Christ will return. This gives us peace and not fear of a date, and fear of our salvation with Camping’s “Hope you are saved” FALSE GOSPEL.

We can have assurance of God’s Love and salvation through Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross through the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that God’s Spirit witnesses with our spirit, the we ARE the Children of God. If we are not sure we are saved, or if we are “hoping” that we are saved, then maybe we are not saved, and following a false gospel of fear and manipulation.

Yes! Thank God, that we can know we are the children of God, through His Spirit He has given us:

1Joh 2:20,21 ” 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written to you because ye know not the truth, but because ye now it, and that no lie is of the truth.”

No need for constant doubting:

Ja 1:5->8: “5 If any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing from the Lord. 8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.”

Harold Camping’s error regarding- The Parable of The Ten Virgins recorded in Matthew 25, vs. his date setting for 5/21/11-a focused commentary.

First, I’ve come to understand that Camping has tied Matthew 25 to his date setting timetable for 5/21/11 relative to the Great Flood via concluding that 1-day = 1,000 literal years to God (which is NOT what God said), and with this as his primary thread for his calculations, he claims to prove that from the the time of the Flood-to-5/21/11 will be exactly 7,000 years when God will destory the world. He then goes further to build upon his foundational scriptural error of intrepretation of 1-day = 1,000 years to God, by adding two more elements of error, namely 1). his timetable that he calculated for the date 5/21/11 for the end of the world is “The Word of God”, which he discovered through his many hours of “diligent study”; and 2). On 5/21/11, whoever is not “watching and waiting for the return of Christ on that specific date (5/21/11), means that such an individual is NOT saved, is NOT a child of God, and will therefore go to their destruction. This latter point (#2) of Camping’s very clearly suggests that unless someone has put their faith and trust in his date setting of 5/21/11 which he claims is 100% certain, reliable, valid, and God breathed, and is therefore the “Word of God” according to him, it would also mean that faith in Christ, i.e. the completed work of Jesus Christ on Calvery alone, is NOT sufficient for anyone’s salvation. Due to this, Camping followers (like himself) claim that if anyone is not expecting Christ’s return exactly on 5/21/11, then their salvation is NOT possible, even if such a person believes that Christ can come at anytime. So what we have here, as with ALL cults, is that Faith in Christ alone is NOT adequate for salvation, it must be paired with something else that the cult leader (Camping) has concluded which transcends fundamental bible doctrine, or better put, “is an obscured revelation that is of private intrepretation” that the bible warns about in 2 Peter 1:20 where it says quote- “Knowing this above all things, that no prophecy in scripture is a matter of one’s own intrepretation.” This is precisely what Camping has done, and he accomplished it through his famous use and application of numerology and mishandling the Word of God to fit his calculations, then to make matters worse for himself and those who he has mislead, he assigns his conclusions as “The Word of God” through the process of subversion. Finally, the Parable of The Ten Virgins has nothing to do with a believer watching and waiting for a specific date for Christ’s return, but instead, that “readiness” on the part of any believer in Christ should be at ALL times, day and night, because NO ONE knows the exact day or hour of His return (just as Jesus Christ stated during His earthly ministry). So readiness on the part of all believers at all times is necessary and should be a natural part of a Christian’s walk with God. Now, the meaning of the Parable. Of the Ten Virgns in the parable, 5 had oil in their lamps and 5 did not. The oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside a believer through Faith in Christ which was possible after the Day of Pentacost to this very day. 5 of the Virgins that had no oil wanted to borrow it from the 5 that did, and they refused by stating that they (the 5 that didn’t) had to go purchase the oil for themselves. This is symbolic that salvation is not tranferrable from one person to the next, it must come directly from God. Otherwords, a believer in Christ can not give another person the Holy Spirit personally themselves. Essentially, the 5 Virgins that had oil in their lamps evangelized to the 5 that didn’t and in essence directed them to the source for obtaining it, namely God. Also, the 5 virgins that didn’t have oil in their lamps is symbolic of individuals who are are seeking to get into Heaven on their own terms, i.e. they want to get into Heaven but have not put their faith in Christ which is the Gift of the Holy Spirit of God. When the 5 virgins that didn’t have oil in their lamps left to go obtain the oil for themselves, the Bride Groom (Jesus Christ) suddenly came and the 5 Virgins that had oil in their lamps (believers in Christ), went in to the Marriage Supper (via the Rapture) and the door was closed. This is the general theme and revelation of Matthew 25, and it’s directly linked to the scripture found in 2 Cor 6:2 where is says “today (now) is the day of salvation”, because the only time anyone can be ever be saved is NOW, i.e. from microsecond-to-microsecond, because between any microsecond interval, Christ can return instantly and if a person does not have “oil in their lamp”, i.e. they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit and are therefore not believers in the Lord Jesus Christ by Faith, they will miss the Rapture or eventually die in their sins. Now, Mr. Camping will try and tell people that unless someone is focusing on his date setting of 5/21/11, and is crying out to God for mercy on that specific date, then they have no hope. Additionally, Mr. Camping in all his date setting NEVER suggests to any of his Radio Program listners nor his followers, that puting Faith specifically in the Lord Jesus Christ is required for salvation. This date setting doctrine of Mr. Camping is of the Devil who he has been blined by. Mr. Camping needs to change the name of his “ministry” from Family Radio, to “Hath God Said” Ministries of Harold Camping.” When 5/22/11 comes, Mr. Camping will have already launched a “new revelation” for the return of Christ by a new set of elaborate calculations and date adjustments just like he did in 1994. I’ll close with this-Have Faith in Christ alone, ALWAYS be ready for His return, and in doing so, redeem the time wisely by sharing your faith in Christ with others encouraging them to also trust God through faith in Jesus Christ as you have. This is what “your oil in your lamp is for and should be causing you to do generously, sharing your Faith, pointing others to God as the direct source for their obtaining oil for their lamp, so that their light (like yours) can shine brightly in a world of darkness. Dianne

Matthew 25
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Notice in verse 5, it says that ALL slumbered and slept, the 5 wise virgins were also sleeping, when the Bridegroom came at midnight, so the WISE VIRGINS DID NOT KNOW WHEN HE WAS COMING! However they were prepared, because they had the oil (they were saved through the Holy Spirit)

And again shall we repeat the very clears words of Jesus
Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.”

The way God dealt with Noah was different then the way God is working with us today. Noah had no Bible, and God spoke with him directly and told him exactly when the flood would come 7 days before the flood. However God does not speak directly to anyone today, He gave us a complete Bible, and Jesus Himself says we can not know the exact day he is returning. These are the words of Jesus in the Bible. Who is your final authority, a man who has predicted a wrong date in the past, or the Lord Jesus Christ, who says we can not know exactly when he is returning?

Jim
Thanks for your posts and comments. As always, you provide excellent and very insightful details on key scriptural analysis.

Regarding Matthew 25, you pointed out something I hadn’t fully recognized until now, which is that ALL the virgins in the parable were sleeping (Matt 25:5) at the midnight hour, seemingly a critical time for at least the wise virgins with oil in their lamps (i.e. the believers in Christ indwelled with the Holy Spirit) to be awake “watching and waiting.” I prayed about that and ask God to show me how was it that the “5 wise virgins” were sleeping along with the 5 foolish virgins?”

The Lord quickly showed me last night in prayer the following:

#1
Overall, this parable is a portrait that is birthed in the context of Jesus introducing discussion on the Kingdom of Heaven which is found in several other places in the four Gospels. Based on my study of the Kingdom of Heaven, I discern that this topic has to do primarily with the New Testament (NT) biblical theme of the “gathering in process” which includes both believes and non-believers, the wheat and the tares. All are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God to repent of sin, and as a result of that, seek to know God and do His will which Jesus responded to when asked the question by His disciples concerning what the Will of God is? He (Jesus)said, “the Will of God is to believe on the One whom God has sent” (speaking of Himself). Conviction of sin through dealing with man’s consciousness is one of several core ministries of the Holy Spirit. Very few however on a “world scale” respond to God by entering the only pathway of salvation, namely Faith in Christ alone (i.e. The Straight And Narrow Path that according to Jesus, “there be few that find it”-Matthew 7:13-14). As we know, many hear the Gospel and either reject it, or some entertain it for a season and it never takes full root, or endures etc., such as the description given in the NT parable regarding the seed that was planted along the pathway (Matthew 13). Getting back to the scene in Matthew 25, the 5 foolish virgins are clearly symbolic of those who were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit (i.e. they did not have Oil in their Lamps as previously mentioned in my last post), and as a result of that, they were among the unsaved tares or the element of “professing believers”, those not indwelled by the Holy Spirit which is only proof of irrevocable salvation and the guarantee of Eternal Life. Yes, they (the 5 unwise virgins) were under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to “seek God” or “desire to get into Heaven” like everyone else, but apparently they had chosen a pathway that was not based upon Faith in Christ alone, and there are many examples of this in Christendom which includes various forms of Pagan Religion. The Jews in Jesus’ day for example, especially those among the Synagogue rulers, believed that they also were saved and heaven bound simply because they were God’s “chosen people”, i.e. “obeyed the Laws of God” and had the Ten Commandments on stone tablets resting in the Ark of the Covenant, etc., but yet, Jesus shocked them by stating that their true father was “Satan the Devil” (John 8:42-44). So in summation, yes, “many are called but few are chosen” according the Words of Jesus Christ. The 5 foolish virgins were clearly professing believers, that thought they knew God but apparently didn’t, they apparently never received the Holy Spirit of God through pure Faith in Jesus Christ, and as a result of that, they were never indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God for fact that the parable reveals that they did NOT have Oil in their lamps and were not allowed entrance by the Bridegroom into the wedding feast (taken in the Rapture), which by the way, does not mean that a genuine Christian indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God is always faithful to God like he or she should be, which I’ll show in the next section.

#2
Based upon the fact that Matthew 25 reveals that the 5 wise virgins were sleeping along with the 5 foolish virgins at the midnight call upon the Bridegroom’s arrival is a startling revelation, but yet they (the 5 wise virgins) went in to meet the Bridegroom despite the fact that they too were sleeping at this very critical hour (the Rapture). This is symbolic that works are not required to be saved, only genuine Faith in Christ resulting in the indwelling by the Holy Spirit-the “Oil in your Lamp.” Simply put, Faith in Christ is the root of one’s salvation, and works (i.e. faithfulness to the call of God) is the fruit of one’s salvation and “should” be consistently present in the lives of saved individuals.

The primary purpose of a believer being saved and having Oil in their Lamp through the indwellment of the Holy Spirit of God, is to redeem the time wisely while living on earth by being an effective witness for the Kingdom of God by administering the Gospel of Christ to whosoever will listen while awaiting the Return of Christ.

In the Matthew 25 scene, the 5 wise virgins were NOT doing this at least at that particular moment in time, although they should have been discharging their duty as legitimate believes. This does not preclude or suggest however that they had not been utilizing their time wisely as effective witnesses of the Gospel at other times in their lives, personally, I believe that they were.

Interestingly, God could have used a very different illustration for this parable to show that they (the 5 wise virgins) were engaged in sharing the Gospel among the people in the land at the moment of the Bridegroom’s return, but yet, He chose to illustrate that at this critical moment they were NOT being faithful to the WORK they were called to do as believers, so this reveals that works do NOT get a person into Heaven which is consistent with the Gospel message. Yes, as previously stated, works are very important and should accompany the lives of all genuine believers in Christ in order to authenticate their faith, but at the same time, it’s important to recognize that a believer’s “works” are the result of their salvation and indwellment by the Holy Spirit who is actually causing and performing their works to the degree of one’s yieldness. This has to do only with the rewards a believer will receive at the Judgment (Rev 20:13).

#3
The fact that the 5 wise virgins in Matthew 25 were sleeping at a very critical moment, also parallels another similar critical moment of “faithlessness” for believers in Christ that’s nearly identical in context and equally profound only in this instance it is the very disciples of Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:40 at the time of His Arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. Here’s the scriptures on this event, and try to keep in mind The Parable of The 10 Virgins, specifically the 5 wise virgins that were NOT watching and waiting as they should have been, in fact, they were found SLEEPING just like the disciples of Christ at a critical moment revealed in the scripture below:

Matthew 26
(v36) then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “sit here while I go over there and pray.” (vs 40) then He returned to his disciples and FOUND THEM SLEEPING and said, “could you NOT keep WATCH with me for one hour?” (vs 41) watch and pray that you do not fall into temptation, for the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. (vs 42) He went away a SECOND time and prayed. (vs 43) when He came back to the disciples, He AGAIN FOUND THEM SLEEPING because their eyes were heavy, so He went away a third time and prayed saying the same thing. (vs 44) then He returned to the disciples the final time (THE 4TH TIME!), and said, “are you STILL SLEEPING….? Look, the hour is near and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners (vs 46) then He said, “Arise, LET US GO!, here comes they betrayer.

Now, notice the remarkable comparison between the 5-wise virgins sleeping in the parable recorded in Matthew 25 at a critical moment in time when they should have been “watching and waiting” or being “faithful to their call” although they weren’t shown doing this at a specific moment in time, and now recognize the EXACT SAME THING happened to the disciples of Jesus Christ not in a parable, but a living reality scene probably one of the most important ones recorded in the entire Bible dealing with issue of salvation and the relationship position between God and genuine believers. Keep in mind that ALL of Jesus’ disciples abandon Him completely after His arrest by the Romans and ultimately denied him, even Peter denied him 3-times openly, who Jesus had earlier referred to him as the “Rock” due to his confession of Faith in of His Heaven set identity, thus revealing his (Peter’s) position in Christ as a genuine believer.

#3
So with all this said, it’s important to realized that moments of faithlessness on the part of a believer in Christ does NOT at all mean that they are NOT true believers. However, ALL true believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God which is the only guarantee of Eternal Life and entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Again, works is the fruit of a believer’s salvation, and Faith in Christ alone is the root of salvation.

In closing, examine these last two scriptures in regard to the above discussion:

“It does not therefore depend on man’s desire or effort, but on the Mercy of God.”
Romans 9:16.

“If we are faithless, He will remain Faithful, for He can not disown Himself.”
2 Timothy 2:13

With this, notice how in both instances, despite the “unfaithful behavior of the believers at a specific moment in time”, i.e. the 5 wise virgins sleeping (not watching) at the very moment of the Bridegroom’s return (along with the 5 unwise virgins that Jim pointed out), vs. the disciples of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane also sleeping at a critical moment when they should have been “watching” with Christ, that despite this, Jesus said to them, “Let US go” signifying both His unbroken relationship with them, as well as their position in Christ, and in the situation of the 5 wise virgins, they also “went in” with the Bridgroom (Jesus Christ) to the wedding feast at the time of the Rapture, and why??..because of their position in Christ, not because of their works or faithfulness.

Camping states that the Parable of the Ten Virgins shows that it is required to be watching and waiting at the EXACT moment and date of Christ’s Return to be saved, but yet, the EXACT opposite was shown to be true. Like Jim said and showed in the scriptures for Matthew 25, NONE of them (the 10 virgins) were watching and waiting, but yet, only the ones with the “Oil in their Lamps” were admitted to the wedding feast in the Rapture.

NO ONE knows the Day nor the Hour of Christ’s return, be ready at all times, and make sure you have put your faith and trust in the completed work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, not Mr. Harlod Camping’s elaborate date setting and twisted doctrine.

Dianne,
Most excellent analysis, and comparison to the disciples during Jesus’ hour of suffering!!! Can you see how we can be blinded by hearing one interpretation over and over again, and not just letting the Bible speak for itself??!!! Mr Camping claims the wise virgins are the true believers who know exactly when Christ will return, and the unwise virgins are the “unsaved church people”!!!! Mr Camping has devised his own false gospel, and repeats it over and over again every night with authority, but he is point blank in direct opposition to the clear meaning of the Bible, in many of his teachings.

Mr Camping has always been in this game, for his own ego and pride, he is very proud of how he studied the Bible for over 50 years, and came up with his “calendar”, and how God raised up Family Radio, so he assumes that he can NOT be wrong!

When May 22, 2011 comes and nothing happens, I hope his eyes will finally be opened, but judging from previous history in 1994, there is little chance of that happening, unless God strongly rebukes him, and opens his eyes. I pray that the strong hold that Mr Camping has on his listeners is once and for all broken, after 2011 passes, and the year 2012 will come, because we have not entered the final tribulation period yet, which will last a few years. When we are in the final tribulation period, there will be no doubt among God’s true children, although we will not know the exact day Christ will return, we will know he is “at the door”. Let us pray that we can be awake spiritually when he comes doing the Master’s work.

One thing I have come to recognize about cults and cult leaders is they all have a central “motis operandi”, which is three pronged; namely 1) building and maintaining a following; 2) attracting new recruits; and 3) making money. The radio station business is an extremely expensive enterprise and Camping owns hundreds of radio stations and/or licneses to radio stations throughout the world, and he needs MONEY to do that, and lot’s of it. As I posted previously, Camping’s lengthy date setting history has to do with marketing his ministry via maintaining a following composed of gullible individuals that need someone to follow and trust which is common to all humanity. Camping exploits this aspect of human behavior, and not only that, he displays distinct cult leader traits based on what I’ve read here and have studied on my own, etc. His “date setting” scheme is hauntingly similar to “cliff hanger” episodes for prime time T.V. soaps, i.e. “stay tuned to see what happens next” kind of thing. He is a master at this entire process. I learned recetly that he is already beginning to give hints of a “disclaimers” on his absolute certainty of 5/21/11 as the day of the Rapture and end of the world prediction. So with this, I sense that he is already in the process of gradually beginning to lean toward a “5/21/11?” senario, just like he did with “1994?” His followers have been handing out flyers with his 5/21/11 prediction that has some sort of disclaimer written on it, but I have not seen what it actually says. So again, it’ all about maintaining an aura of suspense in the minds of his followers, so that he can continue to control them. Notice how many if not most of his follows from the 1994? era, are still following him to this very day, so this should say it all.

In regard to Camping’s statements that the Wise Virgins of Matthew 25 represent the true believers is actually correct. However, they were NOT watching and waiting for the Bridegroom’s return at the moment of His return (the Rapture) due to the fact as you pointed out, that they were also sleeping along with the unwise virgins. What Camping does not recognize about this parable, is that it is a portrait of the those who placed their faith alone in Jesus Christ (which he states is not possible for salvation and is of the Devil), vs. those who didn’t, and also, that the parable reveals that works are NOT required for Salvation. He further has stated that “crying out to God” continuously, in particular on 5/21/11, is required for salvation on the Day of The Rapture (which would qualify as a work), but yet, he openly states on his radio program that if anyone is attempting to do any work of any kind for salvation proves that they are not saved. He agrees that the wise virgins were saved, but yet, they were NOT seen crying out to God in Matthew 25, but instead they were SLEEPING along with the unwise virgins that he agrees were NOT saved. So you see, this man’s doctrine is loaded with all kinds of distortions and incoherent reasoning all of which is very difficult to follow due to inconsistencies like this.

I’ll use one of Camping’s verbages in closing: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Camping does not believe in Salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ, he is into a works theology although he denies this when asked point blank on his radio program. Also, despite that fact that be states that the wise virgins of Matthew 25 represent true believers, according to him, it doesn’t matter anyway if someone believes in God (he never specifically says Jesus Christ), because salvation according to him, is a mystery and it is not possible to for anyone to know who God is or isn’t going to save, thus denying that God through Jesus Christ offers mankind no form of relationship whatsoever. This one point by itself, reveals that Camping flat out denies the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I’ll have to stop here because it’s too grieving to continue discussing this. This is truly, truly a very sad individual and I feel very sorry for him and those he has mislead due to his own blindness by the Devil, and what I discern about his condition, is that it all stems from his unresolved anger over being excommunicated from his original fellowship decades ago due to his attempt to introduce error doctrine which has mushroomed into what we all see today; a GIANT CULT.

Hello again Dianne, appreciate your dissertation concerning Matt. 25 (the 10 virgins) and Jim’s support. The idea that Camping insists one has to “be watching” like them (the virgins) yet all were found sleeping should put the issue to rest in any discerning mind of Camping’s hermeneutical skills. Yes,correct-Mr. Camping and his organisation,as found today, exhibits cult-like characteristics,here’s two definitions I like:

From Denver Seminary professor Gordon Lewis-”A cult,then is any religious movement which claims the backing of Christ or the Bible,but distorts the central message of Christianity by 1) an additional revelation,and 2) by displacing a fundamental tenet of the faith with a secondary matter.(Like 5/21/11)
Christian Research Institute founder Walter Martin-”a cult might also be defined as a group of people gathered about a specific person or person’s misinterpretation of the Bible.”(Like leaving ones church or home group and gathering around your radio to absorb Mr. Camping’s drivel)

I think the greater “message” and tragedy is the lack of Biblical literacy among today’s believers. Those that are grounded and study the word should see Mr. Camping’s error peeking over the horizon-it would never make it to their front door. But,as you point out , people would rather follow and be part of a group,and I’ll add be “spoon-feed”-then mature to the meat. It is very sad its come to this,but, the Lord will prevail.

Camping speaks his own fleshly mind, “intruding into those things which he hath not seen” and he wants you to trust and lean on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Camping.

Camping wants you to FEAR that without Camping’s words, you will “lack nourishment”, you will not stay “knitted together”, and you won’t “increase with the increase of God” because you are (supposedly) rejecting God’s ‘hidden’ wisdom of 2011. Camping has LOST CONNECTION with the “Head” (who is, of course, our Lord Jesus Christ). Camping is extremely proud and not willing to submit himself to the Lordship of Jesus Christ – Camping will NOT have Christ as the “Head” over him, restraining him from his foolish desires to proclaim his silly “hidden mysteries of the Bible”:

“Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen,
vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.”

By contrast, God GRACIOUSLY and LIBERALLY gives wisdom to EVERYONE THAT ASKS HIM – He is not holding a carrot in front of you, always out of reach (like Camping does). No —- God GRACIOUSLY and LIBERALLY gives wisdom:

“Ja 1:5 If any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all
[men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given to him.”

God CLEARLY leads us by His word.

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Unlike Camping’s “mystery teachings”, God’s instruction is NOT a mystery to a believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit:

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken to you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak to you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly concerning the Father……..29 His disciples said to him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

Unlike Camping’s teaching, God’s Word and His Spirit speak of faith (not doubt) and confidence and hope in Christ and HIS ABILITY which is AT WORK IN US (rather than confidence in Camping’s ability to discover the ‘secret truths’ and our need to “work out” his numbers and analogies and methodologies and re-definitions and special codes and interesting discoveries and mysteries hidden for thousands of years only to be ‘unlocked’ by Mr. Camping’s zealous and diligent study):

Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given to us.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Do NOT fear Camping’s twisted logic that essentially tells you that you’re NOT SAVED UNLESS this, and that, and that……

Pr 29: The fear of man bringeth a snare: but he who putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

INSTEAD, trust in GODS WORK in us – HE is the one teaching us, HE is the one leading us:

1 John 2:26 These [things] have I written to you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received from him abideth in you, and
ye need not that any man should teach you: but as the same anointing
teacheth you concerning all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as
it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Ps 32: 8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with my eye.

Camping is a FALSE PROPHET, shown PLAINLY by God’s Word:

De 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing doth not
follow, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not
spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be
afraid of him.

Camping has ADDED TO GOD’s WORD! Camping is CONDEMNED!

Rev 22:18 For I testify to every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of
this book, If any man shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book:

Just like the circumcision party, Camping has brought a FALSE GOSPEL – Camping stands CONDEMNED!

Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so I say now again, If any [man] preacheth any other gospel to you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Camping strives about the law, asks foolish questions, tries to prove his timetables through endless genealogies, and is full of contentions:

Tit 3: 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

So, what are we supposed to do with him?

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he who is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by himself.

VERY SIMPLE!

I say all these things with vigor because I was once EXTREMELY deceived, and I stood condemned by following Camping – I lost my Head – Jesus Christ. I foolishly paid attention to his ENGINEERED doctrines to the point that I ALMOST LOST MY WHOLE FAMILY! I sat in church with Camping WAY TOO LONG. Thank GOD for His Mercy upon me to show me the EXTREME ERROR of my ways!

I say all these things as a WARNING TO ALL OF YOU THAT BELIEVE CAMPING’s doctrines and follow his pattern of pride, self-rightousness, works, judging/comdemning others, doubt that God is at work in you, constantly cry out for mercy, etc. etc. Camping wants you to stay BUSY trying to keep up with him – that way, you won’t find time to figure out that you should be busy BUILDING UP the body of Christ, “encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day draw near”. Instead, Camping wants you to help him TEAR DOWN the church by abandoning your fellowshipping together in the GOD ORDAINED structure of pastors, teachers, evangelists, elders, deacons, etc. Camping fled out from under the authority of his local church – he wants you to do the same. As they say “misery loves company”.

Mt 16:18 And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

FLEE from Camping – he will NOT win. God will surely protect and preserve His Church! We are to SERVE God Himself, Jesus Christ, the Word of God:

Jos 24:15 And if it seemeth evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the river, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Great point – never thought about the fact that they were all sleeping.

So, let me play the other side of the coin, in the spirit of further investigation/understanding:

All were asleep, yet upon the “cry at midnight” announcement, they became all awakened. Wouldn’t a Campingite say they were ALL awakened as a result of the “cry at midnight”, which they’ll say is the 2011 message? Also, wouldn’t they say the “wise” were still focused on His coming, while the “foolish” were those NOT focused on His coming (i.e. they left the place wherein He was to return, and became distracted away from His coming)?

Mind you, I do NOT regard 2011 above or below any other time that our Lord could return. But, I was just thinking about the scene. And, I definitely believe that the followers of Camping twist the scripture anyway, oftentimes regardless of verse reference used (i.e. allegory gone wild).

Brad, I was thinking the exact same thing! Camping has a habit (and is a master of) spinning things his way. He (and his followers) would claim exactly what you have said. “Because of the revelation given to family radio, aka Harold Camping, aka Jonah, the true believers awoke from their slumber after hearing HC’s message, and are now ready to meet the Lord in the air on May 21, 2011! The other five virgins, aka the church, is still asleep and “foolish” because they don’t heed his (HC) call, and will be left behind.” He definitely knows how to play up to people’s fear. How wicked!

Dianne, you make great points in your assessment of the spiritual condition of HC, and I could not agree with you more on this, but no matter what we say, he and his followers will move ahead with their call to leave the churches (and other bizarre new teachings)and to follow the Camping doctrines (aka the “true gospel”).

Unfortunately, May 21, 2011 has to come and go without the return of the Lord, for his followers to (hopefully) wake up and realize that they have been led astray. Perhaps then they will realize that Camping has been twisting and adding to the gospel all along; he has been led astray himself(?) and does not even seem to realize his error; he is blind because of his spiritual pride, like many here observed. Kind of reminds me of the “The Piper of Hamlin”. Do you know the story?

The true gospel of Jesus Christ never changed! The Lord saved us from the pit of eternal damnation, which must be so unspeakable terrible (not just the end of our existence as HC claims) that the Lord of this universe took it upon Himself to die a horrible death on the cross as punishment for our sins (why? BECAUSE HE LOVES US!), and that those who believe in His salvation and follow the Lord wholeheartely, will forever be His in glory! How marvelous is that!!!

We cannot put The Almighty God in a box, like HC would like to do. The Lord is beyond our thinking because His ways are NOT our ways, and we will NOT be able to determine His return. HE WILL return – no doubt about it! But it will all happen in His time and under His conditions. May we be ready and alert at all times.

What remains to be done is to continue praying for family radio and its listeners that the Lord may reveal His truth and that those who have been led astray by HC will not fall away after this house of cards comes crashing down, and crashing down it will. HC’s lies will be exposed and God’s truth WILL PREVAIL. Hallelujah!

The problem Mr. Camping would have with the Parable of the 10-Virgins, is how to explain why the WISE Ones with the oil in their lamps, were the only ones that went in with the Bridegroom (J.C.) at the time of the Rapture. He would have to explain what the Oil represents throughout scriptures, which symbolically, always represents the Holy Spirit with countless cross references, NOT Mr. Camping’s 5/21/11 message. The “Wise Virgins” had the “Wisdom of God” living inside of them due to their being saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God which is indeed the Oil in their Lamps. The trumpet call went out on the day of the Rapture, and they all suddenly awakened, although they all had been previously sleeping and were all caught off guard as to the exact moment (i.e. day and hour) of His return. Please keep in mind that the Return of Jesus Christ is going to be a world wide visible and audible event, everyone throughout the entire world will know He has returned, but only the those indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God (i.e. the Wise Virgins) are going up in the Rapture after the dead in Christ are raised from the dead, and caught away. I personally believe that this event is going to be a global center stage event that no one can deny or avoid seeing. It’s going to be both the most exciting day and also the most disappointing day to those who have vs. those who have not the Oil in their lamps. Needless to day, all of the Camping followers will recognize his follie and their misplaced faith and trust when 5/22/11 rolls around and the Rapture still has not taken place. Keep in mind that Camping has said scores of times that this event on 5/21/11 is “The Word of God” according to him, and that it is “100% certain to happen”, and that there is going to be a global catostrophic earthquake that is going to kill millions upon millions of people on the earth, and also, that there are going to be millions upon millions of dead bodies laying all over the streets and highways of the world from all the sudden devestation that is going to occur and that specific day, so otherwords, it will be impossible for anyone living on earth on that day, to not be impacted by this event. I say this to say, that any Camping follower will not be able to get around all these statements that their leader Mr. Camping has stated hundreds of times on his Open Forum Radio program, but like I said, he will likely beging modifying his 5/21/11 date, and/or putting disclaimers on it the closer this day comes, then when it comes and goes, he will no doubt begin saying that God gave him additional revelation and it will occur later that same year, or sometime before the end of that year. (when previously he stated that 5/21/11 is 100% absolutely the end of the world, the Day of the Rapture, the Day all these dead bodies will be all over the streets, and that it is “the Word of God.” I have heard him say this on the radio at least 6 to 8 times, possibly more. Camping is going to have MUD on his face over this latest prediction of his, and it’s going to be very difficult for him to recant this ABSOLUTE prediction, because this time around, so far, he is not stating “5/21/11?” like he did with 1994? Keep watching!

Here’s another major follie of Mr. Camping’s, one that very clearly demolishes his concocted 5/21/11 prediction for the Rapture & end of the world date-setting prediction, and is something that I posted recently but will go into further detail here. As everyone knows, the earth has time zones, 24 to be exact; each one being 15-degrees wide. Therefore, at any given time on earth, there ALWAYS exists one part of the earth that is 12 Hours difference; either ahead, or behind the other. With that said, every minute of the day, it is always 12 noon somewhere on earth, while at the exact same moment it is 12 midnight somewhere else. Please check this link- http://www.elbertwade.com/page142.html. Now, with that said, it is possible for TWO different calendar days to exist on earth at any given time simultaneously. Therefore, when 5/21/11 arrives within the North American time zone, it will obviously be 5/20/11 somewhere else on earth, and this creates a very serious dilemma for Mr. Camping 5/21/11 prediction. So if the Rapture and end of the world occurs on 5/21/11 in America, since America is Mr. Camping’s point of reference (because he lives in America), then those people in a different time zone where a different day exists simultaneously will be deprived of “watching and waiting” on the exact day that the rapture occurs in North America, and therefore, those people in a different part of the world would have been “watching and waiting” in vain. This is what I call “linear” or “one-dimensional” reasoning. Anyone with a 6th grade education or higher would understand this very quickly and see through Mr. Camping’s fabrication. Comments welcome on this.

Yes, people have asked him this exact question on the open forum, and he never gave a logical response other than it will be day on one side of the globe, and night on the other. We all know that, but of course this does not solve the dilemma that you have touched on.
I have also noticed when people ask him questions that he is not able or comfortable answering, he either cuts them off midway in his rude manner, or starts beating around the bush. He then talks for at least 5 minutes or so, touching on this, that and the other topic, leaving the listener not only confused, but usually by then people have forgotten the question. Great tactic, but I am sure others have noticed his strategy too.

The following is what I witnessed Mr. Camping say on his Live Open Fourm Radio program today 3/4/10), and I’m enshrining it here so that when 5/21/11 comes and goes, there will be NO DOUBT about what he has been teaching with his latest prediction.

First, the context of what he stated was in reply to an individual that called in and questioned him on the air about his 5/21/11 prophecy regarding the end of the world and day of the rapture, and why he believes that his date setting is accurate THIS TIME compared to his prior date setting of 1994.

The following is the dialog of that discussion:

Mr. Camping:
Well, you know God reveals more and more information the closer we get to the end of the world, and back in time leading up to 1994, I had enough information from God through diligent study of the scriptures and crying out to God that 1994 was very likely the time of the end, and although the end did not occur back then, 1994 was still a very significant year in God’s prophetic timeline, and in FACT, God revealed that 1994 was the year the Church Age ended and He gave Satan rulership over the Church as a punishment and that it (the Church) would be destroyed, because God’s plan after 1994 according to the Bible, is to save people outside the Churches which is the reason why any true child of God should not be attendng any Church, because if they are, it means that they are NOT SAVED, and are under the judgement of God. Not only that, I never stated that 1994 was absolutely certain to be the end of the world, although it was very likely and seemed to fit God’s Plan at that time. Since then, God provided additional information that He revealed to ME in the scriptures that the time line of the first destruction of the world back in Noha’s Day, and then applying 1-day is as 1,000 years to God, and since we know when the exact day and month of the Flood (i.e. 4990 BC) when Noah and his family entered the Ark, minus 1 year for the change over to A.D., then adding 7,000 years, we come to EXACTLY to 5/21/11. This DATE for the End of the World is absolute, it is going to happen regardless if you choose to believe it or not. 1994 was different because God had not provided the required revelation necessary to conclude with 100% certainty that the end of the world was at that time, but now WE know differently; 5/21/11 IS THE DATE FOR THE END OF THE WORLD AND THE RAPTURE OF GENUINE BELIEVERS.

Caller:
Ok, so since you say that 5/21/11 is not like your 1994 prediction, and that this time, this new date (i.e. 5/21/11) is 100% certain, what about your radio station, what’s going to happen to it? (now pay close attention to Mr. Camping’s response).

Mr. Camping:
Ah, well, Ah, you know, Ah, first off no one will know anything on that day but total devastation and despair as death is going to be everywhere. There is going to be an world wide earthquake that will be the biggest ever in world history, many hundreds of times more powerful than what recently happened in Hati. When this earthquake occurs, all the graves throughout the earth will be opened by God, and ALL the dead bodies in all those millions upon millions, upon millions graves will be thrown out onto the ground by God in shame for all to see, and in addition to this, thousands upon thousands of people will be killed each day also throughout the world right up to the day when the earth will be physically destroyed by God, so you see, these events will take center stage all over the world and no one will be able to do anything but suffer. All true believers who are God’s children, those who where watching and waiting for 5/21/11, will have safely been taken off the earth by God just moments before these great events begin to break out.

Caller:
Ok, Mr. Camping, so where will you be, and what about your family?

Mr. Camping:
I can not speak for members of my family because I do not know their fate. (Notice that he does not comment on what will happend to him, nor the fate of his radio stations, he TOTALLY AVOIDS BOTH AS IF THERE IS SOMETHING HE IS HIDING OR DOESN’T WANT TO REVEAL OR TALK ABOUT).

Now, with all this crazy dialog said today by Mr. Camping, notice how ALL of what he says is NO WHERE in the scriptures, and the part about God giving Satan authority over the Chruch to destroy it, is so outrageous, it doesn’t deserve a comment.

Mr. Camping has been handed over to a REPROBATE MIND, plain and simple to see and understand. When 5/22/11 comes, everyone needs to be standing on the front door step of his Family Radio program in Oakland, CA, to catch him as he’s coming in the front door to announce what additional revelation God is giving him at that time for a new and modified date, and to also explain where all the dead bodies are and what happened to the global mammoth earthquate that killed everyone.

Thanks for documenting this for us Dianne! I caught a little of the Open Forum tonight also driving in my car, I don’t usually listen at all. I heard him talking about 5/21/2011, but did not hear this that you mentioned. Thanks for putting this down here for all to see on May 22, 2011.
God Bless,
Jim B.jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Thanks Dianne. I listened to the open forum as well, and can confirm what you wrote. He’s said these things many, many times. There is no way he can wiggle his way out of this one.

HC is way up there in age, but I hope he will be around on earth for 5/21/2011 to see the day come and go. He will have to face the music then, and I hope those who still believe him nowm will finally wake up and see the deception they fell for all along. But worse than all of this will be the fact that he has to face the Lord. Woe to those who deceive and lead others astray. God’s Word is very clear on that.

Thanks for your posts! It’s amazing how the Lord works! I was about to call into the Family Radio program today and speak directly with Mr. Camping about his 5/21/11 prediction, specifically, I was going to ask him to describe exactly how certain he is of this date, i.e. is there any “wiggle” room for modification based on a possible “need” to do additional calculations, and/or, for him to possibly obtain more information from God, etc., which he is famous for with his prior predictions, and guess what, some else beat me to the punch! A young man called in and asked Mr. Camping this very question, and Mr. Camping’s response was the following:

Mr. Camping:
No, there will be no further revelation about 5/21/11 being the “Day of Judgement” and “End of The World”, this date given by God in the Bible is ABSOLUTE, IT WILL NOT CHANGE, it is not like 1994 when we didn’t have all the information required to be 100% certain like we are NOW.

Caller:
So, you’re saying that you are SURE that you will not need or anticipate the need for further revelation from God about 5/21/11? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but given that you previously predicted 1994 and the end didn’t come, it seems to many people out here that you may again begin changing this latest date based on what you say God is showing you in the Bible, so again, what I understand that you are saying is that 5/21/11 is a FINAL revelation from God and that you are 100% certain of this date, is that CORRECT?

Mr. Camping:
Yes, THAT IS CORRECT, I am CERTAIN of that date (5/21/11), the date is God’s Day of Judgement for the world, it will be the beginning of the end of the world starting on 5/21/11 and it will culmininate on 10/21/11 when the world will finally be destoryed by God, and that date is 100% certain, it is NOT going to change, and in fact it is an INFALLIABLE DATE, because it has been given by God in the Bible. Anyone who does not trust God about this Date (5/21/11) and is not watching and waiting faithfully on that Day, will certainly go into their destruction, it’s going to be the beginning of the worst experience ever in the lives of the disobedient.

Now, with this said by Mr. Camping, let it be RESOUNDINGLY CLEAR that he by his own words and admission, does NOT anticipate any need for additional “revelation from God about 5/21/11” as he said today on the Open Forum, as he is saying that this date is INFALLIABLE, which means that his method of arriving at this date is also infalliable as well.

Mr. Camping previously stated on the Open Forum some months ago that it took him nearly two years to “complete the work” of uncovering this date, 5/21/11, and that it FITS perfectly all of God’s established timelines thoughout the bible in His dealings with mankind thoughout the ages.

Lastly, keep in mind that Mr. Camping is also stating about 5/21/11, that if anyone does NOT believe that this date is from God, it means that such an individual is NOT a Child of God, and therefore, has NO possibility of salvation because they will ignore that date when it comes. With this, he implies that “redemption” or “atonement for sins” is a matter of one placing their total trust in 5/21/11 as the infallible end of the world which would imply that anyone who died before 5/21/11, and never knew about this date, is lost forever, because it is necessary according to him for someone to believe that 5/21/11 will result in oone being saved from their sins, NOT Faith in the person of The Lord Jesus Christ and His completed work on the Cross.

I hope you all see what Mr. Camping is all about now.

Keep tuned, 5/22/11 is coming soon and personally, I plan on standing on the front steps of his radio station in Oakland, CA with a camera crew to film Mr. Camping when he tries to sneek into his office and begin preparing for his next date release.

“according to him for someone to believe that 5/21/11 will result in oone being saved from their sins, NOT Faith in the person of The Lord Jesus Christ and His completed work on the Cross.”

I was wondering about that too. It seems like he is bringing a whole new gospel! The focus is not on Christ any more, but has now shifted to what our false prophet HC teaches: trust in me (HC) and my infallible prediction of judgment day on 5/21/2011. If you believe that you prove to be a true believer.

I will not be able to be in CA on 5/22/2011, but I will be “standing by the radio.” The phones at F.R. will be ringing off the hook that day with disillusioned people and those who knew all along that this was one of the biggest deceptions ever.

Yes-Dianne-you’re correct in saying Mr. Camping is adamant this is it(5/21/11)…he’s been saying it for about a year now(that he’s certain)…heard him myself also, some months ago. You have quite a memory to recall that dialog…I know Family Radio used to have their archives open for view but pulled it a while ago. Is it back up on their site and if so,what # or date was that recorded-be good for others to listen to it themselves. Thanks…..

Here’s another very interest comment I heard Mr. Camping make on his Family Radio program earlier this week:

The discussion had to do with the fate sinners vs. the elect of God.

Camping:
“God’s elect are in a special category of their own, they were born neither with or without sin.”

The caller then asked Mr. Camping how can that be when the Bible says differently? The caller then gave Mr. Camping the following scriptures verses:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5)

All have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God (Rom 3:23)

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:18)
Camping’s response to these scriptures in light of his statement:

Camping:
Well, now you see, you have to be very, very careful, the FACT OF THE MATTER is those scriptures don’t mean that, as this is what the churches have taught for hundreds of years, and what is required is that you look further into the bible to learn what it is really saying.

He then rambled on and on with his usual jargon that’s typically difficult to follow discussing something incoherent about “God’s elect don’t need salvation because they are already chosen by God, and when they are raptured, then they become saved, all of which of course is not in the Bible they way he is explaining it.

When I first heard Harold Camping on the radio I thought it was Steven Wright making jokes about the Bible. I thought that it was not right for Steven to make for of the Bible this way. After a while I realized that this was a different person and he was supposed to be taken serious. WOW. ejchi

an Sam please wake-up to the truth (it took God 7 yrs to show me the light) HC is without a doubt a fales prophet! Keep in mind that God is not the author of confusion (ICorin14:33) Some of HC’s more recent teachings: 1.Since Solomon multiplied wives he was an unsaved man. 2.Sometime in eternity past Christ was slain to pay for our sins. His sufferings on the cross at Calvary was just “kind of tableau,if you will” (a quote from HC)3. Only a few days ago he endorsed a new book that claims that the Gospel of St. John was really written by Lazarus (of John chapter 11). It’s just 1 heresy after another.The truly scary part are the callers who are so afraid by his teachings that they can’t face 5/21/11 (believing themselves to be unsaved due to HC’s standards) that they’ve actually said on the air that they’re going to commit suicide before May 21st. God help them please. And not them only, but all those who can’t see the light!

I don’t understand what the problem that everyone has with Harold Camping? Was Jonah wrong when he finally delivered the message to Nineveh? Everyday can be judgment day for those of us that die. There is so much going on in this world specifically in the United States with the abundance of unbelief in God, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes ,and the pride of life. There are many things in the bible I do not understand but the things I do understand is what worries me. Why is it so far fetched that what happened to the established church in bibilical times cannot also occur today, are we to smart as church to let that happen today? If Jesus came to today would we really recognize him or would we yell crucify him. I’m tired of all the arguments of whether this doctrine is more correct than this one and that this is a cult and they are a cult. If the Lord does not return next year, God help our country. I used to listen to family radio years ago before the sudden changes. For those that are not aware religion in general attracts a vast range of menatlity unstable persons and to someone who does not believe in the bible all you Christians are crazy. Their is no distinguishing between Baptist, Pentecostal, Latter day saints, Unitarian, Trinitarian, etc, just a bunch of fools. I will continue to work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. He is coming soon.

Welcome Josh,
Well,not Everyone has a problem with Mr. Camping,not all know of him. You don’t sound to me like a hard-core ‘Campingite’ ,just a believer upset with the bickering in church doctrine in general. Correct me if I’m wrong. The major ‘doctrinal’ difficulties most ‘in the know’ have with Mr. Camping is his gnostic tendencies of ‘finding’ things in scripture(through eisegesis and numerology)that go against established orthodoxy. That’s the short answer. It would take pages to go over each point,of which some has been done so in the above posts -so I invite you to read and comment as you feel lead.

and in particular, I’d like to point out the following from that article:

Notice, first of all, that the phrase “preaching the kingdom” is synonymously parallel with his description of his preaching in verse 21, “repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.” The message of the kingdom was not some message like the social gospel as some claim today, but the gospel of the kingdom is repentance and faith (see Mark 1:14, 15). These are the terms of entrance into the kingdom.

Secondly, notice that Paul claimed innocence from bloodguiltiness. This means that had he not proclaimed both the terms of entrance into the kingdom, and the whole of what God has revealed of His purposes, Paul would have imperiled their souls, failed his sacred mission, and brought guilt upon himself for failing to warn them of coming judgment (see Ezekiel 33:6). These same responsibilities apply to pastors and other church leaders today. This is so very important because the flock must be equipped to withstand the onslaught of the inevitable wolves who will arise.

These wolves are the subject of Paul’s warning to the church leaders:

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30)
It is important to see that the wolves come from two sources: outside and inside the church. Wolves are always inimical to the well-being of sheep. It is the responsibility of shepherds to make sure the sheep are safe from the wolves. To do this, the wolves must be identified. The way they are identified is through their teachings. Paul described the practice of the wolves: “speaking perverse things.” The word “perverse” means “twisted” or “distorted.” Their teachings are a distortion of the authoritative teachings of Christ and His apostles. Anyone is a wolf who purposely gives distorted teaching and refuses to repent when shown his error from the Scriptures. The elders must guard the flock against such people.

Notice what happens through the teachings of the wolves: they “draw away the disciples after them.” False teachers and prophets have a message that comes from themselves, not from the whole counsel of God. The reason these wolves draw disciples away after themselves is that they are the only source of this teaching. If the church is proclaiming the true terms of the covenant and the whole counsel of God, whatever “perverse” doctrine is being promoted by wolves will not be heard from the faithful pastors and elders. Perverse doctrine cannot be found through valid implications from authoritative Scripture. Therefore, if the wolves succeed in giving some of the sheep an appetite for what they are offering, the sheep will have to follow the wolves to get that appetite fed. Since this is not from God, they are being drawn away from the true sheepfold and into spiritual peril and perhaps damnation.

So, in particular, notice the emphasis on WHY the sheep go astray (i.e. the WOLF entices them AFTER HIMSELF (and not AFTER CHRIST), and the WOLF entices them AFTER THEIR LUSTS).

Harold Camping and all who follow his ABSOLUTE FOR SURE HERESIES are going to be IN DIRE NEED of assistance/encouragement/repair after May 2011 passes (if our LORD JESUS CHRIST should happen to tarry longer). May 2011 is INVENTED BY CAMPING A WOLF!

Please, let us all be diligent to be ready to give encouragement to those who HAD followed Camping, if/when 2011 comes and goes without the LORDS’s return!

THAT is an excellent summation of cult attraction,for that’s what we’re dealing with here-Mr. Camping HAS breached the line into the Kingdom Of the Cults. And I’ll second the motion that his devotees will need ‘assistance’,in the very least ,when 5/21/11 passes without event. As I’ve related to some Campingites on another forum-they will be here on terra firma,save the Reaper,on 5/22/11 and won’t be ‘happy campers’.

This is my first post and I’d like to acknowledge everyone here for their great contributions to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ without error, as did the Apostles. Brad N in particular gave a great review in his post regarding the definition of “preaching the Kingdom” in its pure form as intended from the beginning, again, as the Apostles preached.

I know all about Harold Camping. Many years ago he seemed to be a good bible teacher, but for some unknown reason all that changed, and he is now very clearly revealed himself as a heretic, not just in his contrived date setting for Judgement Day i.e. 9/6/94, and now 5/21/11, but mainly in his overall mishandling of scriptures in general which is entirely based upon subjective his interpretation, combined with an elaborate use of an amalgamation of allegory and numerology, all of which in my opinion skids Mr. Camping right up to the door step of being a “sorceror” of sorts.

The explanation of what happened to Mr. Camping the way I see is due to my knowing something about his natural history, i.e. that decades ago when he was excommunicated from the Dutch Reform Church for teaching non-fundamental unorthodox views of doctrine, this caused him a great deal of remorse, anger, and resentment toward the Church leadership. It is my discernment that this emotional state of mind he was in at that time, became a vulnerability that the Devil exploited, and thus, sent him on a mission to become a bible teacher who doesn’t need anyone to tell him what the bible says, and that due to his engineering background, he was probably also very prideful of how “intelligent” he was and likely viewed himself being superior intellectually to his former church leadership. The result of all of this, is what we see today, a man who has never gotten over being excommunicated from his former church, and went about leveraging his business skills and intellectual skills to establish a global radio network to preach the bible according to his own person views, which I have learned is 100% “bible study and works based” remarkably similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses-Watch Tower Society. Mr. Camping does not subscribe to the doctrine of Salvation is by God’s Grace through Faith. He claims this is a work of man, not God, which is where he goes far off track and has been terribly deceived. It is clear to me that Mr. Camping teaches 1. there is no guarantee or assurance of salvation; 2. “Christ” was crucified in eternity past for payment of only the “elect’s sins”; 3. man has no moral obligation to know God despite his sinful condition from birth and therefore has no way of knowing God exists so God can save such a person if he chooses without the person knowing how or why which of course factors out the requirement of repentence which was the core message of John the Baptist; 4. he does not subscribe to the Blood Atonement for reason that the he claims that the elect’s sins were paid for in eternity past when Christ was put to death in eternity past, so therefore, Jesus work on the Cross at Calvery was only a demonstration with no relevance; 5. it is not possible for anyone to believe God for Salvation through Jesus Christ (which he claims is a work of man) although he teaches his devotees that they must BELIEVE in his contrived 5/21/11 in order to consider themselves a “true believer and child of God” which I have personally heard him say many times on his Family Radio live program; 6. “crying out to god for mercy” is the only manner in which God “might save someone”, however this is 100% God’s decision, man has no role in salvation whatsoever; 7. and lastly, an incredible direct quote from Mr. Camping > Quote: “Romans 10:9 was put in the Bible by God as a TRAP for those who dabble in the false teachings of the Church.”

My position on all of the above which I have personally heard Mr. Camping teach over the past couple of years on his daily Open Forum radio program, is that is is clearly the doctrine of devils, and the teachings of a mad man cult leader.

Another great post,and correct ,at one time Mr. Camping fell within the pale of orthodoxy but now has strayed far off the reservation. Yes, very Jehovah’s Witness like.
He’s had a fetish for finding esoteric meaning in scripture for a while now,and that DID cause problems in the Dutch Reformed circles-they’re very conservative.
Feel free to post any additional helpful info you might uncover. God Bless.

You’re welcome ,sir, – Feel free,and yes I too find his doctrine of Christ being crucified before the world was formed (so O/T ‘saints’ could be ‘saved’, among the elect) one of the strangest twists yet. I’ll let you know this,Campingites have been told to ‘ramp up’ their “evangelism” after the 1st of New Year so, expect things to really get off the wall then.

Yes, in fact I visited one of the Camping YouTube Channels of which they have many, and this one in particular was hosted by an Ervine Clarke, who apparently is a student apprentice of Mr. Camping. During the course of the past several months, I discovered much of the Camping doctrine through this Camping devotee who made the following claims which are not only that of a heretic nature, but just plain doesn’t make any common sense on a very basic level of comprehension.

The following are a sampling among Mr. Ervine Clarke’s many claims that apparently he learned from his teacher Mr. Camping. I will give a near quote of what his claims are and a brief narrative for each:

1. Christ was crucified in eternity past for the sins of “the elect” only, and when he was on the Cross, he was NOT making payment for anyone’s sins, it was only a “demonstration of suffering.”

As we can see, this claim has a host of theological problems and it’s just plain illogical from a spiritual discernement perspective. The Bible teachs that without the sheading of blood there is no remission of sins, and also, it was not possible for “Christ” to die in eternity past because a). he was not yet born into a human form; and b). “Christ” means the Anointed One or “Messiah” which speaks of Jesus’ Mantle or Title conferred upon him at the Jordan River when he was baptised by John the Baptist, so the term “Christ” existing in eternity past and being crucified in eternity past is disambiguous, especially since in eternity past was “The Word” that eventually became flesh and dwelled among us as Jesus of Nazareth-the Son of God, so in his eternal past, he existed within the Godhead as the Word (or Eternal Word) which is Spirit form, because God is a Spirit. So Mr. Clarke’s learning from Mr. Camping is terribly flawed in this kind of reasoning. i.e. 1. without the sheadding of blood there is no remission of sins; 2. it would not be possible for God in Spirit form to be “crucified” in eternity past, because a Spirit can not be crucified, only a man can be crucified, and only a man can shead his blood on a cross. Not only this, the Bible very clearly states where Jesus was crucified which is a place on earth, none of which existed in “eternity past.” Obviously, our entire universe we presently live in and its creation is very clearly outlined in the first chapters of Genesis, so in “eternity past” there was only a VOID, so how and where in eternity past was a “Spirit” crucified, and how is it possible to crucify “Christ” since this term carries the meaning of an anointing? In closing for now, what I’ve learned about Mr. Camping’s teachings through Mr. Clarke’s incredible claims as his student, is that they don’t subscribe to the Blood Atonement of Jesus as the Son of God, and his sheading of his sinless blood on the cross for the remission of sins to whosoever believes through God’s Grace by Faith. They instead subscribe to a “Christ” principal which I have recognize is somewhat of a cross between “Science of Mind” and “Jehova’s Witnesses-Watch Tower Society.” This is the reason why most of their discussion about “God’s salvation plan” focuses on the term “Christ”, instead of Jesus the Son of God, because in essence, they deny that God came in the flesh to redeem humanity from sins, and their avoidance of this seems to point an atte