JonBenet Ramsey Update: Judge orders release of indictment in unsolved murder of 6-year-old Colo. girl
(CBS/AP) BOULDER, Colo. - A Colorado judge has ordered the release of the 1999 grand jury indictment in the killing of 6-year-old
The order was issued Wednesday by Senior District Court Judge J. Robert Lowenbach. He ruled that the indictment signed by the grand jury foreman constituted an official action and must be released under state law.
The Daily Camera reports the indictment will be released Friday in response to a lawsuit filed by a Daily Camera reporter and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.
The indictment has remained sealed for 14 years because the former district attorney decided against pursuing charges. But questions still surround the little girl's unsolved death.
John Ramsey, father of JonBenet, said earlier this week he was opposed to the release of an indictment that wasn't prosecuted. His attorney said in a letter sent to Boulder District Attorney that the document "only serves to further defame (John Ramsey) and his late wife Patricia."
Ramseys attorneys also argue the public won't be able to evaluate the propriety of the indictment unless the entire grand jury record is unsealed.
JonBenet's body was found bludgeoned and strangled in her family's home in Boulder on Dec. 26, 1996. Former District Attorney Mary Lacy said in 2008 that evidence suggests the killer was a stranger, not a family member.

CNN is exhibiting 4 pages, each of which were signed by the jury foreman at one point. I don't think they are releasing any of the other pages, which is what John Ramsey wanted them to do.
Does this imply they allowed someone else to abuse Jon Benet? Since the DNA was from an outsider?
Unleash the lawyers...

If the prosecutor declined to prosecute even though there was a grand jury indictment, (payoff?) does double jeopardy attach in any way? There was no trial on the merits so nobody's due process rights are in jeopardy, correct? I mean, could they still decide to go forward with a prosecution all these years later? There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Burke and his sister JonBenet. Look at the way Burke is sitting with his feet.

R19 = idiot who thinks you can tell that someone was abused from a silly picture

What we know for sure is that Patsy wrote the note.
We don't know exactly how Jon Benet was killed, and we'll never know.
The people who buy into the Ramseys having been "exonerated" by the DA really annoy me. Mary Lacy was a fucking moron. There's no question they were involved. The note gave them away.

[quote]If the prosecutor declined to prosecute even though there was a grand jury indictment, (payoff?) does double jeopardy attach in any way?
The *only* situation in which double jeopardy applies is if a complete trial has taken place, and a judge or jury has found the defendant not guilty. This is why, for instance, a second trial after the judge declares a mistrial during the first doesn't count as double jeopardy.

Eh, R23? The four pages released didn't exonerate John Ramsey, only Patsy.

I went to Jon Benet's grave with a crazy friend who visits every year with her mother on the anniversary of the murder.
She is buried right next to her mother and the entire cemetery is a pretty small space, located near a very large cemetery, which makes it confusing to locate. I don't think there was much extra room for John and/or Burke there...just the Ramsey girls.
It is surrounded by an iron fence, making it impossible for nutty lookyloos like us to get next to it. There were metallic pinwheels decorating Jon Benet's grave, spinning in the wind.
The cemetery is located just a few blocks from the Marietta Square.

Burke looks special.

I've never understood the fascination with this case.
Even now, years later, it's still being investigated. Why? Who gives a fuck? The girl is dead, ain't nothing that is going to bring her back.
The mom is gone as well. Her secrets went with her. Nobody has been or will be punished for it.
I don't care but I'm tired of seeing this fucking story all over NBC and the CNN web sites.

"What we know for sure is that Patsy wrote the note."
No, we don't know that for sure. Handwriting analysis is very flawed.
"Even now, years later, it's still being investigated. Why? Who gives a fuck? The girl is dead, ain't nothing that is going to bring her back."
Well, there is a potentially a killer who is still out there

Cut it out. No murderer, sit's down in the location of the murder and writes a two page ransom note. The murderer knows, the kid is dead. It's a ridiculous idea. The note was written so they would have some excuse for their missing daughter. I'm fairly sure they didn't really think the police would look for the child in the house, AFTER ALL, SHE WAS SUPPOSEDLY KIDNAPPED! So why would the police look through the house?
The answer is so obvious it's absurd that all these years later, people act as if they still wonder about the truth, the truth could not be more obvious.

"No murderer, sit's down in the location of the murder and writes a two page ransom note"
You don't know that. It seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Yes, like pigs flying, 30.

Eye%20roll

Oh...you are going to tell me, you'll murder a kid, the family is there in the house and you'll say..."well, I want to hang around a little longer and write this note!" And why would you even write the note, when you know the kid is already dead? What would be the reason for even writing the note? Please explain.

R31, you should be rolling eyes at yourself, moron. You sound like those idiot "profilers" who think there is one way for killers to behave.

Maybe Dave Herman did it, since Jon Benet was at that perfect age for him...

r31, please read r32.

[quote]I've never understood the fascination with this case. Even now, years later, it's still being investigated. Why?
Blonde hair. Blue eyes.

The most logical answer, is usually the answer. If Jon Benet was the long time victim of child abuse...I guess we all know who the abuser was.
Could John convince Patsy to help him or was Patsy really in the dark? That I don't know.
All I know is that some member of that household killed Jon Benet.

Patsy wrote the note. Reread it and it is blatantly obvious.

Where is the rest of the indictment?

F off 33. Patsy wrote the note, ahole.

Of course Patsy was never ruled out as the person who wrote the note but could John have written the note, trying to copy Patsy's handwriting? I'm sure John is a clever man, as long as it didn't look like his own hand writing, it didn't matter if it resembled Patsy's...who would believe Patsy would have a part in her daughter's disappearance? After all, John thought he could get rid of the body at a later time, he didn't know the cops would search his house. He thought the ransom note would send them off in a different direction.

Fun fact: John Ramsey grew up in the same town as I did. Albeit a few decades apart.

The focus needs to be: corruption in the Boulder D.A.

It's broader than corruption in the Boulder DA office. Boulder prides itself on being a perfect community. The murder of a 6 year old created massive cognitive dissonance for both city officials and residents. Their denial led to the decisions that has bungled the case from Day One.
Listen to the city officials talk about the recent flood. It's mostly this rah-rah 'our infrastructure held up, etc..' Meanwhile, poor Boulderites who live in trailer parks lost everything.
A couple of years ago, the city hired a research firm to do a quality of life survey by phone. The firm, with the city's approval, decided to not offer the survey in Spanish. Of course, most of Boulder's poorest, neglected citizens speak Spanish. Hence the survey results proved that Boulder remains a GREAT place to live.

To solve it, just charge Burke with it and tell him he's going away for life. He'll start talking then and reveal his parents part of it.

I read some of the links at the fist thread, and it seems some of the experts felt that the wording used in the "ransom note" followed a male pattern, but the handwriting was that of a female.
i.e. John dictated the letter and Patsy wrote it

R46 I don't doubt what you say, but I don't know any straight male who would put "Use that good Southern common sense of yours, John". It sounds like the note was written by Blanche DuBois.

Or Lindsay Graham, R47.

R28/30/33 is a moron.

LOL @ R47 !!!

R30, I'd like to hear your scenario where a killer would take the time to write a lengthy ransom note in an occupied house while the body of the child he murdered is still in the home.

[quote]You don't know that.
Sure we do.
[quote]It seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened.
Really? Cite one. Give us one kidnapping case where the kidnappers sat down in someone's house and wrote at least one draft and then wrote a two page ransom note. Just one case, any case, anywhere.
You can't, R30. It's never happened and it didn't happen at the Ramsey's either.
One of the three people in the house that night killed that kid. John and Patsy covered it up, either for each other or for their son. The End.
\t

Was the note signed...

Mrs%20Patsy%20Ramsey%2C%20formerly%20of%20Boulder%20Colorado%3F%3F%3F

Burke did it.
Patsy and John left JonBenet in the company of a kid they knew was supremely fucked up (charge number one they were indicted with). When Burke kills her, they don't realise he can't be charged because of his age. They cover up (charge number two), Patsy writes the note and they lawyer up fast.

[quote]I've never understood the fascination with this case.
Even now, years later, it's still being investigated. Why? Who gives a fuck?
I've never understood people who lack curiosity. Not to mention concern about a murderer running around loose, & likely corruption in the Boulder police dept &/or DA's office.

"Really? Cite one. Give us one kidnapping case where the kidnappers sat down in someone's house and wrote at least one draft and then wrote a two page ransom note. Just one case, any case, anywhere"
Read the book True Crime by Bill James. He lays out why he thinks the parents didn't do it.

R54, I agree. Reading b/w the lines, the GJ had to think it was Burke. Nothing else makes sense.

Janbot killed her because she had nothing to offer to benefit Janet.

I often lay in bed a night and think about poor JonBenet being strangled and wondering who she saw doing it to her. Then I clean myself up with the permacum towel and go to sleep.

R58, Why do you think Burke is guilty and not the parents? Of course he was jealous and hated being pushed aside; but do we even know if he was abused?

[quote]"Really? Cite one. Give us one kidnapping case where the kidnappers sat down in someone's house and wrote at least one draft and then wrote a two page ransom note. Just one case, any case, anywhere"
[quote]Read the book True Crime by Bill James. He lays out why he thinks the parents didn't do it.
Uh-huh. As I said, you won't be able to cite a case where a note like this was written because there isn't one. This is not what kidnappers do.
I don't need a book. There are three suspects. One, Patsy, is now dead. It's a murder, not rocket science. \t

r61 [quote]but do we even know if he was abused?
Yes. Burke was abused. JonBenet was abused. The mother knew. She couldn't live with herself so she got sick an died.
John Ramsey's cronies had a chat with the DA. Case closed. No one was charged.

R61 There were signs that something was being done to him. You had Patsy's mother announcing the size of his penis in public, his regression in toilet training (both bedwetting and shitting himself) and his weird obsession with sex (he'd been caught a few times 'playing doctor' with JonBenet). Something was wrong with this boy.
Then you had Patsy willing to let him play with a knife until the housekeeper insisted she be allowed to take it off him, him being pushed aside by his mother at weekends so Patsy could go whisk JonBenet off to pageants, Patsy's history of being molested which means she may have let all Burke's weirdness slide.
John requested his golf clubs to be brought from the house to him by Patsy's sister. What the fuck would he need golf clubs for unless one had been used to bash JonBenet's head in?

Anyone remember Claudine Longet? She was a starlet of the 60s, married Andy Williams, divorced and in the 70s, shot her boyfriend to death in Denver. Because the police bungled the case, she was convicted of a very minor charge and basically walked. The incompetence of the local police in CO seems to be a statewide problem that stretches decades back. The Ramsey case was fatally bungled by the police way before the DA refused to charge.

Wasn't there an incident where the brother hit her in the head with something before, I think a golf club?

[quote]Does this imply they allowed someone else to abuse Jon Benet? Since the DNA was from an outsider?
It was a hair. If you do laundry, the hair could have come from anywhere. The Ramnseys killed her. America makes so many excuses because these are rich white people.

[quote]Well, there is a potentially a killer who is still out there
That's what I keep tryin' to tell people!

OJ

[quote]You had Patsy's mother announcing the size of his penis in public
link.

But there is another suspect with Nicole Brown Simpson...but no one for JonBenet.

Actually, there are some other options, if you read the books and watch the documentaries.

[quote]So Patsy was an accessory, and John was the murderer?
That is certainly plausible, and that is the main theory of a website that was linked on the Original Thread.

It was Burke. He mixed his feces in with candies in a box of chocolates she was given at a pageant. He despised her.
There was also talk that the family was into some twisted, twisted shit and that was why the kids were so fucked up emotionally.
Either pops lent them out to business people to gain leverage over them and make money, or the Ramseys were into Satanism and the death happened as part of a ritual gone wrong.
Everyone agreed that John felt that his grown children were his 'real' children, and he felt little to no attachment to these two with Patsy. She wanted kids, and he wanted to make her happy.

I can see the Satanism and pedo crowd theory. Perversions at Christmas would be important.
For r69, from the Vanity Fair article:
The Paugh house, a brick Colonial with a circular driveway, was a matter of great pride to Nedra. One investigator described their living room as "the shrine room," bedecked with trophies, ribbons and photographs of their pageant winning daughters. "They were so meshed up in each other, and it was my gut instinct that told me something wasn't right there," says Stobie (Jane Stobie, mgr of Atlanta's Access Graphics). "They were going on and on about the size of Burke's penis. This, to me, was so bizarre....

In Steve Thomas' Book about the murder he gives his theory that something happened between Patsy and JonBenet resulting in a blow to her head that crushed her skull. Everything after that was a joint coverup between Patsy and John Ramsey.
Also almost all handwriting analysts agree that Patsy wrote the note.

I think everyone agrees she wrote the note, but that doesn't mean she killed her. She could have been told to write it by John, or to cover up for the brother. Or because she did it. The note proves a cover-up, but does not indicate who was the killer.

I love Steve Thomas's book. It really does put all the details out there but also just cuts it down to a murder investigation. Once that's done it's pretty clear who did it.
One of the most bizarre aspects of the case was detective Linda Arndt. She kept meeting privately with Patsy. When the police department found out they asked her to detail her conversations in a report. She said she couldn't. She promised Patsy all there conversations were woman to woman, between friends, and swore she would never tell anyone what she said.
And they kept her on the investigation!

People, people, the garotte killed her. John knew how to do the garotte and was strong enough to do it. Somebody may have bashed on her on the head before that, of course, but there is no reason to remove focus from JR.

Satanist pedo ring for the win. I wonder if Cheney or one of the Bushes made it to the so called 'Christmas Party' that night?

White people are evil.

Exactly,79-why do people keep saying it was Burke? She was also sexually abused-what child could have done all that?! And even it was Burke, he would have went to juvee for a few years and out before he turned 18

Okay, I'm not saying it was Burke, but children sexually abuse each other all the time.

I didn't read Steve Thomas' book or all of the first thread. Who does he think did it?

Patsy. The first private investigators the Ramsey's hired came to the same inconvenient truth also. Fortunately for them the Ramseys had enough money to keep hiring investigators until they found ones who cleared them. Guess which ones they brought on the talk shows LOL.

They all did it together. And thus began a Ramsey family Christmas tradition.

Only rich WHITE people get away with shit like this. My grandma always said to watch out for the white devil. If the Ramseys were Black and poor the parents would have died on death row. The Ramseys were white so they walked. This is a travesty.

blah blah blah get a life R87

We get it R87. Now go back to your Jackson family thread. Keeping in mind that blacks are 14% of the population yet commit about 71% of all violent crime.

I think you are forgetting that JonBenet was also white, R87. The Ramsey's didn't murder their black maid; they killed their blonde-haired, blue-eyed daughter.

[quote]Only rich WHITE people get away with shit like this.
Tell that to OJ Simpson. It's about money, not race.

O.J. Simpson

In this case there was not sufficient evidence to convict anyone.

I've been in the hospital for the last 3 weeks and missed the first thread.
Would someone please post a link to the first thread please?
Thank you

It depends. What were you in the hospital for?

That there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute is the biggest, most beneficial myth(to the Ramseys anyway) that the Ramseys, their influential friends, and the media created. There was enough evidence.
I hate to sound like a shill for the book but anyone interested in the case really needs to read it. It is very well written. I love the part when John Ramsey decided to sue the author. The author said lets go I'd love to depose you. The case was dropped.

Car accident, then 3 surgeries to put me back together.

R94

According to Steve Thomas' book, the wounds to the daughter's vagina did not appear consistent with sexual gratification.
Why is everyone so reluctant to consider the idea that a child could be killed by her mother? Even accidentally and in a fit of rage.
THAT is what the team of investigators concluded based on the evidence.

Susan%20Smith

Burke was 8 years old at the time of JonBenet's death; JonBenet was 6. According the autopsy, the cause of death was asphyxiation using a garrote.
I am not convinced an 8 year old boy physically could strangle a 6 year old girl; even if he tried, [italic]she would have been able to scream loud enough for anyone in the house to hear her.[/italic]
I believe the initial theory; Patsy killed JonBenet accidentally while abusing her. JonBenet had an ongoing bed-wetting problem that was frustrating Patsy.
No one bothered to intervene and pull Patsy off when they heard JonBenet screaming for her life, because the sound of JonBenet screaming in pain was very normal in that house.

Yikes, didn't know Patsy Ramsey was dead from ovarian cancer in this timeline. I totally shifted from an alternate dimension where she was still alive and well. Ugh, what else is in store for me.

Dimension%20shifter

Who abused Patsy?

The four pages that have been released from the Grand Jury's indictment state that the Ramseys "did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey."
Also, that they gave "assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death."
This basically means that the Ramseys themselves did not kill JonBenet but they stood by as someone else did. They consciously put JonBenet in the situation where a third person was able to kill her, then they covered up for that person.
At first sight, this looks like Burke, although them leaving JonBenet in the company of Burke knowing he was abusing her and even endangering her life would be twisted enough. But, then at least you might understand why they covered up for him.
But, this person was "suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death". Can an 8-year-old really be indicted for first-degree murder, let alone child abuse?
Or, is the foreign DNA found on JonBenet's panties and her clothes actually a vital part of the story, despite being so often dismissed here? It did not belong to someone in the family, but it could belong to someone that the family knew and the parents allowed to be with JonBenet, knowing that this person could kill her. Then they covered up for this person, partly also because they would have been exposed for their actions too.
It sounds even worse than an angry Patsy or a fucked-up Burke randomly lashing out at JonBenet. Sounds more like a pedophile conspiracy, involving another male adult and with the consent of her parents.

No, the indictment merely means the grand jury didn't have proof of which parent killed her. They felt there was proof that both were involved in the events leading to her murder.
No need to invoke a pedophile conspiracy, or Burke's involvement for that matter.

R2: You are, clearly, not up to guest writing as Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO, so please don't dilute the brand.

[quote]Burke Ramsey, the face of a sexually abused boy
Is that a thing?
I don't know about his face, but Patsy's talk about his penis was a red flag.
According to the Vanity Fair article that came out after the death, Patsy was wont to tell people what a large penis her then prepubescent son had.

Most of the books that have been written by detectives on the case point the finger to Patsy. I believe one pointed it to Burke. None have said John. The child showed evidence of sexual abuse that had been on-going. I think Burke was probably abused as well. Both had a history of bed-wetting. The fact that Patsy wrote the note and had never changed clothes from the night before makes her highly suspicious. The knot on the rope makes John highly suspicious. It could be that they were punishing her and it got out of hand. Perhaps they are both the killers.

R103, I'm just trying to understand what the four paragraphs the public has been allowed access to mean. Thanks for clarifying.

I want confirmation (or at least people's intuition to tell me the truth) that Patsy posted here when she was amongst the living.

Dimension%20shifters%20need%20to%20know.

Burke wasn't 8 - he was 9 and a month away from turning 10. Kids have killed at that age before.

according to the Grand Jury bit released, it sounds like Burke

Why R110?

John Ramsey knew how to make a garrote. Unless he left one lying around for Burke to use, the father's complicit in the murder. Odd that he would choose something so unusual that could so easily be pinned to him.
JonBenet could have been molested without injury to her vagina. Dressed like an adult and with sophisticated makeup, Mr. Ramsey may not have seen JonBenet as a little girl.

There's not enough makeup to make a 6 year old girl look like an adult woman.

R113, Perhaps to you a heavily made up 6-year-old does not look like an adult woman but in a pedophile's fantasies any policeman will tell you a line has been crossed.

It's rare, however children do commit homicide, whether its intentional, negligent or reckless.
I have always believed that Burke may caused JBR's death and the Ramseys moved heaven, earth and the Boulder police and prosecutors offices to protect him.
Most significantly, they had the dough-ray-mee to do so.

Della

R111: Ramseys "did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey." - the parents placed her in a situation etc - they did not watch over the brother, i.e. behavior towards sister
"assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death." - they covered up for someone, knowing the person committed the crime - who else - the brother
weren't their reports that he hit her before, was in her room, other weird stuff, obviously she was getting the attention from her mother that may have been resented

If true, it's unlikely he'll make it through life without killing again. He apparently tells friends without being asked that he doesn't remember that day/night.

[quote]Patsy was wont to tell people what a large penis her then prepubescent son had.
Do we have a link to this article?

No, these missing 4 pages point just as easily to John Ramsey being the murderer, with Patsy being the accomplice. I think people want to think it's Burke, because then the horror of parents killing/covering up their own child's death is less (in the sense that they would be "covering up" to protect another child).
Parents sometimes kill their children. It is an awful fact.

John Ramsey is the most likely culprit behind most of this.

"Patsy was wont to tell people what a large penis her then prepubescent son had."
"Do we have a link to this article?"
I think what R18 meant to say is, "Do we have a link to pictures?"

One way or another, something strange happened in that house that night, and the Rameys know what it is.
They never wanted to tell. One of them took the secret to the grave (Patsy) and the remaining two (John & Burke) aren't likely to tell either.

[qoute]John Ramsey knew how to make a garrote. Unless he left one lying around for Burke to use, the father's complicit in the murder. Odd that he would choose something so unusual that could so easily be pinned to him.
Yes, but it is also possible his wife and son learned how to make the same garrote from him.

[quote] Yes, but it is also possible his wife and son learned how to make the same garrote from him.
It's a weapon of death R123, not a party trick.

made with a paintbrush? something a kid would do

True, R124. It doesn't make sense that it's something a 9-year old boy would know about.

I doubt a 9-year old kid would even think of it, R125.

R124: As is a rifle, yet most men learn how to use one from their father.

a lot of boys are obsessed with weapons

It's just ridiculous blaming Burke.

not if he did it

r131 = Moron.

[quote] [R124]: As is a rifle, yet most men learn how to use one from their father.
What the fuck? My father owned a rifle for hunting - I grew up in a rural area - and neither sons nor daughters were "taught how to use one". What's more, I have never, ever heard of a father teaching a son how to make a garotte. Ever. And most of my friends' fathers were Vietnam vets.

R116, would a nine-year-old be indicted for first-degree murder? I don't think so. It's one of the parents.

I see the old black Chicago woman troll is back. Satanism? Only black people believe in that
shit. Satanism and voodoo. And the prosecutor of Perugia.

r134. To dwell on the question of whether a 9 year old would be indicted for 1st degree murder misses the issue, which is whether or not Burke CAUSED the death of JBR.
1st, 2nd, 3rd, reckless or negligent homicide is categorized by the potential penalty the perpetrator is subject to if found guilty of causing the death.
1st degree homicide is where the perpetrator has the intent to cause death and causes it and therefore, if the guilty party is an adult is subject to the harshest penalty.
Again, although rare, children do cause the deaths of others. What's relevant is their state of mind while doing it.

Della

correction- what's relevant is the state of mind of the perpetrator no matter their age- child or adult.

Della

It almost sounds like the DA knows the full story and is tiptoeing around the idea that Burke did it. It certainly doesn't seem to be specific at all in terms of Patsy's and John's involvement.
The anger and sarcasm in the ransom note directed at John Ramsay always indicated to me that Patsy wrote it.
Burke was overhead on the 911 tapes saying "What did I do?" while Patsy and John both said he was upstairs sleeping. Maybe he overheard his parents strategizing about what to do. "We could say Burke did it. They won't prosecute a kid." Burke might not have even realized JonBenet was dead at that point. Seems to put him out of the equation.
I've always found it more likely that, since abuse of some sexual nature was apparent (digital, not a penis, the examiner said), that perhaps Patsy came across John abusing JonBenet, took a swing at his head with a gold club, and hit her daughter instead. That, or else it was all Patsy's doing.
The way the Ramsay's seemed conjoined in their pleas of innocence felt like an uneasy affiliation. One of them really hated the other but there was nothing either of them could do about it.

John never ever seemed to be grieving at all, he seems as cold as a slab of marble.
The fact that several policemen did not respond immediately...ruined everything. The parents and Burk should have been separately questioned as soon as the police got there. That mistake killed whatever case could have been brought against them. We will never know what happened but I choose to believe John did it, all common sense will tell you that John killed his child.

True, R139. Even on last year's Anderson Cooper interview, John Ramsey seemed very detached and uninterested in the case and couldn't offer any new explanations as to who would have done this to his daughter.

R136, first-degree murder is, according to wiki, "any murder that is willful and premeditated". This would mean not, as you claim, that Burke caused JonBenet's death but that he intended to kill her and set out to do so. Perhaps, at the age of nine, he premeditated, decided to kill his sister and did so intently. But, still, at age 9, would the courts try a kid for first-degree murder? Would a 9 year old be deemed capabale of having a state of mind that intended to kill?
And what do you mean by he "caused" her to be killed?
The charge of first-degree murder in these indictments is pretty chilling. It would mean that JonBenet's death wasn't an accident or a result of momentary rage.

r141, The question is, in the context of our discussion, what state of mind (mens rea)the perpetrator when causing JBR's death.
Intent="willful and premeditated."
Or, was her death caused by means that were reckless, negligent or accidental?
All US jurisdictions have statutory or common law juvenile justice codes whereby crimes committed by children are treated differently then they are in the adult criminal system.
I happen to believe that it cannot be ruled out that Burke caused her death. The question is whether it was intentional (willful and premeditated"), reckless, negligent or accidental.
Get it?

Della

Will the release of the grand jury's indictment change anything? Will it have any affect on the Ramsey family, including Burke?

I love r112's misplaced modifier.

I doubt it, R143. John Ramsey is in good with the Boulder DA. Also has high-powered lawyer Lin Wood protecting him.

R142, the indictment specifically says "murder in the first degree", which means wiful and premeditated.
Of course, this indictment could be wrong and the jury with the evidence available to them may know less about the case than you do, but "murder in the first degree" is quite clear about what state of mind the perpetrator is in.
"All US jurisdictions have statutory or common law juvenile justice codes whereby crimes committed by children are treated differently then they are in the adult criminal system."
Indeed, which is why it's doubtful that the Grand Jury would talk about the child Burke using language such as "the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death."

I remember right after it happened, a witness came forward and said that he saw John Ramsey at a Boulder adult bookstore a few weeks before the murder. You don't typically see successful, straight men at adult bookstores. There's something not right about him.

Would ordinary, anonymous members of the public really be willing to come out and say they'd been in an adult bookstore, r147?

It would be first degree murder because the garrote is what killed her, not the blow to the head. That part is pretty unambiguous for intent.

Stupid, burke didn't do it.. why a coverup if he had done it, you think it never crossed their minds that hes only 8 and would get away with it? and why not call the ambulance as soon as discovering the little bastard had bashed her brain it? burke having done it is such a fuckin stupid idea, drop it u dumb ass gays

I wonder, did the Grand Jury even get to decide on Burke? Because of his age I doubt his guilt or innocence would be brought before a grand jury.

He was 9, a few weeks away from 10

John acted alone. Patsy calling the police is actually what exonerates her.

Wouldn't that be a twist. John acted alone and no one ever knew. Patsy went to her grave believing he was innocent. All these other theories float around about multiple family members being involved when it was a single killer all along. Hmmm.

If you go by the evidence, he lied about the broken window. There was no intruder. The cops knew that too. Which is why he changed the story to saying he broke it in the summer. Patsy was hysterical during the call. In the audio of the 911 call, she is still hysterical after thinking she hung up the phone.

[quote]John acted alone. Patsy calling the police is actually what exonerates her.
This is what the blog linked to on the 1st Thread proposes. That John committed the murder, wrote the note in disguised handwriting and Patsy found it and called the police.

Did john pass the lie detector test? Do you think Patsy ever doubted his innocence?

Has the press put any questions to the DA's office about the indictments? Can any members of the Grand Jury be interviewed?

Someone needs to pressure the current DA to challenge the so-called experts about John's handwriting. Once he was "ruled out" (by the team he hired), it threw the whole case and Patsy became a scapegoat. John can write with his left and right hand!

I live in Michigan and I remember John ran for office here but obviously got shut down

Is John Ramsey still dating the mother of the girl who went missing in Aruba after meeting with Joran Van der Sloot. I can't remember her name. Natalie, maybe?

No, he's married to some other woman now.

How are people getting that it was John from the DA thing? It sounds like the son and the parents covered up for it.

John Ramsey was probably playing some twisted sex game with JonBenet and Burke.

Why in the world would they be covering up for Burke? He was nine so he would not have been charged and JonBenet was the one Patsy doted on. I do not see two parents going to all of that trouble if their son accidentally killed his sister. Logic people.

"Logic people?" Oh, the irony, r165,considering that your post is devoid of it.
I'm not a parent, but if I were, and if I had the dough-ray-mee to do so, I'd move heaven and Earth to see that one of my children is not subject to the juvenile justice system, even if, or especially if, he or she were the killer of my other child.
Perhaps I'm wrong by concluding that Burke should not be ruled out as the perpetrator. So far, however, I've seen nothing that persuades me otherwise.
In fact, as I've stated repeatedy and I do so again: the Ramseys behaved as any parents would in protection of their child : refuse to cooperate, lawyer up, stick together like velcro.
Now, the foregoing anaysis, unlike your post, is an exercise in logic.

Della

R166, you can state it all you like but that doesn't mean we need to take it seriously or think that claim has any credibility.

There is no evidence that Burke did it. And R166 clearly did not pay attention to the fact that Burke would not have been charged. If it was an accident, any parent would have called the cops. If Patsy were guilty, why would she have called the cops? She genuinely was going crazy over her daughter being missing. The cops checked the place and saw no signs of forced entry. The cops suspected John but the case went down the drain with their inexperience and him being ruled out (by the people he hired) as the ransom writer. Once that happened, Patsy became the target. She stood by her man and how could she suspect him if she too thought he did not write the note. The cops were stupid to allow the couple's lawyers to be fed information and for believing those "experts" in the first place. And they did not question Burke properly. He is the other person who would be able to verify that that window had not been broken in the summer as John claimed. His train room was in the basement.

They wouldn't be thinking logically if a child was suddenly killed. It is quite possible that they thought one child is dead, cover up for the other, to protect him and their family image. They seemed to be very much about image - beauty contests, big house, dressing up etc etc. Cover-up for image.

So my son kills my daughter and I'm going to strangle my daughter to cover it up? Right!
John Ramsey abused his daughter and killed her and staged a kidnapping. The irony is that he lost everything anyway. Lost his business, his son doesn't talk to him and very few believe he's innocent.

Protect a kid who won't be charged? And the kid accidentally killed his sister? The whole Burke theory sounds stupid.

How do you know Burke doesn't talk to him, R170? Do his adult children from his first marriage still talk to him?

r163 [quote]It sounds like the son and the parents covered up for it.
No, it does not sound like a 10 year old did it.

r164 [quote]John Ramsey was probably playing some twisted sex game with JonBenet and Burke.
Yes.

"I remember right after it happened, a witness came forward and said that he saw John Ramsey at a Boulder adult bookstore a few weeks before the murder. You don't typically see successful, straight men at adult bookstores. There's something not right about him."
Going to an adult bookstore means you're a murderer? Mary, please. He might not be 100% straight, either. But, again, what does that have to do with the murder?
And young kids have been charged with murder before, I'm not sure why people think that if a kid commits a murder they never get charged...

The collective opinion of the handwriting analysts is that 24 of the letters could be matched to Patsy's handwriting. A linguistics expert also said it was consistent with her prior writings.
Patsy. wrote. the. ransom. note.
There is no question about that.

Where did Burke get the garrote from?

Humm, I never thought that John might have involved Burk in his sex games.
It's hard to think like a total perv...unless you are one.

R177, he just came back from his Boy Scout meeting "Garrote 101" with his badge. Dad put on his old Scout Leader uniform (crotch-less, of course) and together they strangled JonBenet.

No wonder Patsy had to cover up for John, how could she let everyone know that she had allowed both of her children to be abused.
It really is so revolting that John got away with this. Don't you think that John probably abused his older kids? And when he has new children, he will abuse them.

When his older daughter was asked if she had been abused by her father she ran out of the police station crying and never returned for follow up questioning.

Burke was 9. In Colorado, he would not have been charged. Who are these experts that determined it was Patsy who write the note? And if she staged the kidnapping, why was she the one who called the cops?

People want Patsy to be the killer instead of the most likely scenario: her daughter was sexually abused by John, who killed her.

Where is this proof that Burke said that on the 911 call? What Burke does know is that his dad killed his sister. He knows that the window was not broken in the summer. John broke it in the first place as part of the staging. Once the cops realized it wasn't a kidnapping, he then claimed he broke it in the summer. The cop on the duty has said she stared in the eyes of the killer. She was referring to John. She bonded with Patsy before Pat's death.

As usual the mother did nothing. She knew her children were being abused. How could she not know? She knew. Women know these things, right? But when they are questioned they pretend they didn't know.
She couldn't live with her guilt so she got sick and died.

Why has Burke stopped speaking to his father?

[quote]Why has Burke stopped speaking to his father?
It's difficult to talk to someone with his dick in your mouth.

The%20Ghost%20of%20St.%20Patsy

"As usual the mother did nothing. She knew her children were being abused. How could she not know? She knew"
Talk about jumping to conclusions

Has this gotten much media coverage?

[quote]When his older daughter was asked if she had been abused by her father she ran out of the police station crying and never returned for follow up questioning.
Why did the police not demand that she return?

R190, this is the first time I've ever read that detail. I'm not sure if it's true or not. I wondered the same thing.
Same with Burke no longer speaking to his dad. Never heard that one before either.

Link, R181?
Wasn't there something about Burke being up and it was heard on some call?

Read the book I keep bringing up. It was just touched on in the book I guess the author didn't see it as overly important or there was nothing to add.
As for bringing her back how? First of all even if she lived in Colorado she nor anyone else has to answer a single question a police officer asks. Plus she returned to her home state of Georgia. You can't extradite someone to answer some questions. This is why they convened a Grand Jury. To compel people to answer questions.
But it was definitely in the book.

R181, under which circumstances would his older daughter be asked in a police station about her father abusing her?
Why was she being questioned?
If she had really displayed signs of having being abused by her father, do you think the police would have left it like that?
Who was present to report this information?
A general ditto to the claim that Burke isn't speaking to his father.

They brought her in for questioning. Or rather she agreed to come in and answer some questions. The possibility of the sexual abuse of JonBenet was already more than a concern. Usually, some one the age of John, has already abused. It would make sense if he would do it with his young daughter he would do it with his eldest. Establishing a pattern. I could be wrong. I'm not a cop. But the investigator who wrote the book I read was there during the questioning and I'm just confirming the source for what I wrote.

Of course her running out of the room doesn't confirm one thing or the other. She could have just been aghast at the question. Who knows?

I'm satisfied that Patsy wrote the ransom letter. Whether or not John dictated it to her, I don't know.
Any one of the three people in the house that night could have done it. Patsy and John certainly covered it up.
I don't buy the theory that a minuscule amount of DNA found on JonBenet is proof positive that her killer came from outside the home. Everyone picks up tiny bits of DNA every day.

r195, I've read about a lot of crimes; questioning family is SOP.
The sexual abuse is relevant, but she would've been questioned regardless.
Most murders are committed by those close to the victim(s), or for money. Very rarely are complete strangers involved.

Azaria Chamberlain's brother likely killed her and her parents covered it up. Lindy went to jail. Although the forensic evidence was fucked up at the time, the behaviour of the parents, particularly her husband was highly suspicious. With that in mind, Patsy and John would cover for Burke without hesitation.

Link, r199?
The ethologists consulted on that, IIRC, were divided between practical and scientific, and new evidence apparently supported the Chamberlains' claims.

I think people are just determined to finger Pat as the killer when they do not see what's in front of them. Pat made the 911 call. She messed up John's plan. He wrote the note so that she would see it and he could get her and Burke out of the house. Instead she called the cops and prevented him from being able to get rid of the body.

Who the fuck is Pat?
Do you mean Patsy Ramsey?
Type the "s" and the "y" in her name you lazy lump.

Haha R202!

R198, in those true crime books you read a lot of how is the term "questioning" used?
R195, do you mean Steve Thomas' book, because he's the police officer involved who wrote a book. I just had a search through his book online. There's nothing about Melinda Ramsey running out crying out of the police station when "questioned" about abuse. Would they even ask a question like that? There's a description of how Thomas and other police spoke with Melinda, her mother and their lawyer in the lawyer's office months after the murder, but they answered no questions about John Ramsey and Thomas says the interview was useless.
In another book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town", Larence Schiller says the police interviewed Melinda (nothing about "questioning"), but that's it, nothing about running out of the room crying or being asked about sexual abuse.
Perhaps you're referring to another book.
Thomas keeps calling Melinda JonBenet's stepsister. Surely she was her half-sister?

r201 every book on the case (including those written by Steve Thomas and James Kolar who were actually involved in the case) state that John was dismissed as the letter writer by handwriting experts. Patsy wrote the letter.

R205, those books state that because that is what John Ramsey got the handwriting experts to agree to early on. There needs to be a re-examination of his handwriting. He hasn't made much of it available over the years.
Why?

The fiction that patsy wrote the note is the biggest obfuscation in this case. If you realize that it is possible that John wrote it then everything else falls into place and he is clearly seen to be the one and only killer.

As evidenced by how the case was handled, they have been naive enough to buy that John did not write the ransom note. However, he was never tested for being ambidextrous. If you actually read the note with an open mind, you'll see it's far more likely that a man wrote it.
A beauty pageant mom kills her doting daughter over bed wetting or a "good Christian man" sexually abuses his daughter and kills her? Why are people willing to believe the more absurd scenario instead of the one that actually makes sense?

They are covering up for the son, that is why they never broke the cover up and never fought with each other (in public) over the case.

I always assumed they were covering for Burke, that's why they didn't turn on each other

The idea that they were covering for Burke is absurd.

What 8 year old boy defecates on himself ?
I think Patsy snapped. She was sick w breast cancer at the time. And just snapped .....from the bed wetting and shitting.

A

It certainly raises a red flag that there were two children in that house that had bodily function problems.

They don't seem like the kind of people who would cover up for anyone else, even their nearest and dearest.

Where was it reported Burke dedicated himself?

Dedicated should be dedicated.

She bashed her head in in a fit of rage after yet another bedwetting. Woops, she's dead. She went to work. Made the garrote and choked her dead body with it, executed some crude post-mortem sexual abuse, and hid the dead body. She wrote the ransom note solo. In the morning, when everything went down, John realized what Patsy had done when he heard the note read, but she never acknowledged it and they never talked about it. He trapped her into defending the bad lie she staged. It was easier to go along with than confront the ugly truth. No real sexual abuse. No involvement of Burke.

That%27s%20my%20version%21%20%20Any%20holes%3F

John is the sole killer!!!!

In the D.A. documents they say the parents both allowed a situation to happen, then covered it up. If one of them did it, wouldn't they accuse one, and say the other allowed the situation to happen and covered it up. It seems the only way those statements can be interpreted is that they both covered up for the son...?

Haven't you figured it out yet?
C.I.H. (Crying in Heaven)

JonBenet

Certainly not R219

Actually, given all the evidence and Steve Thomas' observations that morning about Patsy and John's behavior, I agree with R217 completely.
Steve Thomas said that Patsy was basically fake crying and John seemed genuinely stunned.

Meanwhile, the detective Linda Arndt who was in the house when John Ramsey 'discovered' the body of JonBenet has basically said in interviews that John was the murderer.
You can find her interviews about John Ramsey on YouTube. She predicted several years ago that he would never be brought to justice.

[quote]It seems the only way those statements can be interpreted is that they both covered up for the son...?
Not necessarily. It could mean they are covering up for someone else who was known to the family and who was in that house that night.

The jury wanted to charge both because they could not figure out who did what. But John wrote that note to throw Patsy off but she called the cops anyway.

Thank you R222! I am not a true crime fan but I love the JonBenet threads on the DL. I think the Patsy-centric theories are the most interesting and ring true. The Burke ones are just ridiculous to me. But part of the fascination is the open-endedness of it. Also, the reliability of the Ramseys treading water with this shitty covering up but getting away with it. I think there is something horrible about their plight... to watch, and to imagine yourself suffering through too. (And I call it a plight, even if they are guilty.)

R217

I have always found the Burke did it theories to be bizarre. Yes, in many ways he was a screwed up little boy. I think that both he and JonBenet were sexually abused or seriously abused/harmed in some other way - that can be the only explanation for both wetting and sh*tting themselves at their ages. But I don't buy that Burke had the strength to cause the head injury that JonBenet had.

And it's unlikely Burke could have done the garrote, R228. As some of the investigators said at the time, it was far more likely to have been John Ramsey and related to his military training in the Philippines.

It's far more absurd that people think Patsy did it. She wasn't the best mother but she doted on JonBenet. That she would kill her over bed wetting (an issue she was already aware) makes no sense. John killed her and used his money to steer the investigation away from him. Using Patsy's notepad and Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple steers it away from him. Hiring experts to say he did not write the note steers it away from him. And Patsy being a scapegoat did not bother him. He knew she didn't do it but as long as no one focused on him, life was fine. He could play victim.

Again, could someone please post where it was reported that Burke was still wetting and deficating the bed?

R224, I believe the scenario you describe is eminently possible.

Arndt all but said JR threatened her.

Burke was so jealous that he put feces in place of the chocolates in the box that she won at the pageant. They couldn't determine the weapon from the head wound? Was it the pineapple bowl?
There were also unproven allegations that he let clients 'borrow' both children for sex as part of a pedophilia ring.

Sounds like Boulder police put the fix in before even sending Arndt out there.

Perhaps police and/or city govt. officials were at the child sex party / satanic ritual the night before when JonBenet died...

Not enough has been focused on the 12/23 police phone call from the house. I think it was Jon Benet trying to drop a dime on her abuser.

.

She wasn't old enough to make a call like that. Burke might have been. Had Burke or JonBenet been to the ER for 'falling' a lot as children? Who was their regular pediatrician?

If I recall correctly from reading Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, JonBenet had had numerous doctor's visits over the last year and a half, far more than the average child. Don't know about Burke.
The evidence points toward John Ramsey as the murderer, with Patsy either as a knowing or unknowing accomplice. I think she suspected enough to make the 911 call. And Burke was woken up and they were trying to get him to go back to bed. How grim it must have all been.
Has anyone ever read anything pertaining to the nature of the first emergency call a few days earlier? Who made it and what was it concerning?

[quote]I believe the scenario you describe is eminently possible.
R232, I have read this theory in other places and so I thought I would re-state it here. It's not really my own original idea.
All we can really say for sure is what remains true today - John Ramsey has been unable or unwilling to provide authorities with a list of anyone who could have done this. He even said this as recently as when he was on Anderson Cooper last year.
Despite the fact that the writer of the ransom note knew the amount of his bonus, and suggested the involvement of someone known to the Ramseys from work or amongst their friends, he has not named anyone.
Is this because the Ramseys did the crime themselves, or because they know who did but don't want to say?

R224

When this first happened my revulsion of Patsy led me to think it must be her. And then the new DA came and it seemed plausible that they might be innocent. And then I saw the handwriting analysis and went back to thinking it was Patsy. And I briefly toyed with the idea it might be Burke (but the steps he would have needed to take to do it put it into the realm of impossibility for one so young). But then I saw the comparative handwriting analysis which shows that the handwriting actually looks much more like John's than Patsy's. And now I've arrived at my conclusion which is perhaps the most likely and obvious (and downright ordinary thus less sexy and scandalous) choice given what we know of the case, John did it. I think it is likely that he did it and that he also wrote the note. I think that Patsy had less involvement than most people think. IMO this is a woman who had her perfectly constructed world imploded - she is no different from any other woman deeply in denial regarding the sexual violation of her child by someone she loves and trusts.

If John did it, then what would be his motive? Fear that his daughter had already ratted him or would soon be talking?

His motive? Well it may not have been pre-meditated. It may have been an accident during a struggle with JonBenet or to prevent her from calling out to her mother.
We may never know.

Possibly. Ive seen some people speculating re that scenario on various blogs. I think its clear though that as far as a killing goes it wasn't likely premeditated... it just wasn't well planned. Its not generally a good idea to kill someone in your own house. So he was gambling that those first on the scene would be both in shock and, more likely, compromised in their work by his position of prominence and power in the community (a bet that was worth taking because it paid off). I think if he could have gotten her body safely out of that house without Patsy knowing he would have but he ran out of time/opportunity. Its quite possible/likely that aspects of the scene and or things done to the body occurred after the fact. If I were to gamble I would disagree with some of the other bloggers who suggest that JonBenet may have threatened to tell. Instead I think that in the process of abusing her a 'mistake' occurred, a serious injury that could not be explained/covered up and/or a completed death at that time - either way he killed her either right then or shortly thereafter. Everything that comes after that - the staging of the body, the note etc is an attempt to deflect attention away from himself and towards an unnamed intruder.

[quote]Is this because the Ramseys did the crime themselves, or because they know who did but don't want to say?
It's because one of them did it or Burke did it. Either way, the blow to the head started it and the garrote, hiding the body in the basement and ransom note followed.
The people who keep pushing the satanic pedophile group theory give me the creeps. Isn't what actually happened awful enough for you?

R246, I think part of it is that there have been some theories from the police themselves that someone known to the family may have been involved.

Wasn't there some question as to when John's adult son from his previous marriage had arrived in Boulder?

The only reason I considered some kind of sick ritual abuse is because the killing occurred at Christmas (see Eyes Wide Shut, it is common for these rituals to occur near a solstice) and the incredible reach of John Ramsay's connections to money, power and seriously fucking creepy white men.

[quote][R246], I think part of it is that there have been some theories from the police themselves that someone known to the family may have been involved.
I'd be happy to look at any link to those police officers saying this. I haven't seen it, other than the usual non-committal comments often made by the authorities in any case. I don't know a single person who believes anyone other than Patsy, John or Burke murdered that girl.
[quote]Wasn't there some question as to when John's adult son from his previous marriage had arrived in Boulder?
No. Well, people asked at the time. He was alibied and cleared years ago. He's not a suspect.
[quote]The only reason I considered some kind of sick ritual abuse is because the killing occurred at Christmas (see Eyes Wide Shut, it is common for these rituals to occur near a solstice) and the incredible reach of John Ramsay's connections to money, power and seriously fucking creepy white men.
Well stop considering it because it's a stupid and loony fucking theory. It makes you look retarded and/or completely insane. Seriously.
You know that Eyes Wide Shut is a MOVIE, right? Please don't answer. It's a rhetorical question and the thought of engaging in further discussion with you makes my skin crawl.

Rocket%20Scientist

What if all three of them did it together? You never know.

I don't think Burke knows what happened. He would have cracked by now.

R250, you mad, 'mo?

Iirc, evidence pointing to sexual abuse on JBR was inconclusive. If she had been abused, especially on a regular basis, wouldn't her body have evidence of abuse? Did they check her bedding for DNA evidence?
Also, if I found a ransom note stating my child was kidnapped, I would immediately check on all my children, wake them , ask if they saw anything, and get them out of the house. I'd be worried about the safety of my entire family. Especially since the ransom note indicated the kidnappers were part of a larger foreign faction.
If John did do it, would he be the first murderer in history to go on to make tv appearances, write books, or run for office?

Colonel Mustard did it in the drawing room with a candlestick holder.

I have read that Patsy had her full face of makeup still on in the morning, I am assuming she didn't get to bed that night which means she knew what went on.

John took a shower and changed. The fact that Pats y had on the same outfit is yet another factor that clears her. What killer in a house doesn't change? John never intended for the body to be found in the house. Patsy calling the cops messed up his plan.

That's what is significant about this new information, R254 - they're now saying that JonBenet was indeed sexually abused.
Occam's razor says it was the father who was the murderer. It's all so fucked up and depressing.

Why the fuck do people comment on a topic that they have little to no knowledge on.
R217 Oh hell yes the medical examiner stated that Jonbenet had been sexually abused, but then you didn't read the autopsy report, now did you?!
Her pediatrician had to have been in on it. If you want to call me nuts then you'll have to look it up for yourself and see what the sick bastard says about seeing her, I can't remember exactly at this moment, so freaking many times for a yeast infection/vaginitis.
Either Patsy knew that he was in on it all which made her feel comfortable enough to take her to the doctor (at that time you needed a prescription for that shit, or antibiotics if it was that bad), or she was in the dark completely.
There is no disputing the facts that Jonbenet was SEXUALLY ABUSED, so you can put that to bed.
There is no disputing the fact that the GRAND JURY voted to indict BOTH Patsy and John.
But it didn't happen because they were tidy friends with not only the DA, but with all of the upper echelon of society, who may or may not have been at the Christmas party. After all, we'll never know who was there because, umm...
Sick shit happens everyday to children by sick people. They aren't always living in a trailer park in Florida.
Do me and yourselves a favor. Those of you who don't have a clue and haven't looked into this case, shut the fuck up a'ready.
Is it that you like to hear yourself opine?
"Ooooh, I know, I know who did it!"
Without any goddamn research nor knowledge to back it up.
This is a kid that died a horrible death at the hands of horrible people.
And to think that our juries are made up of our peers.

anon

R53 LMAO

246 as creepy as it is, pedophiles and cult members can and do have rings and they protect each other. They will be in positions of authority for just that reason.
A ring may not have been involved in the actual JBR murder, but they sure could have helped with the cover-up, especially in a small town, and if the children had previously been supplied to them.
Notice I've said "may" and "could" and "if" here, because I do not know the truth as related to JBR, only as related to the pedophiles.
Yes it is awful and repulsive, but these individuals are sick, slick and can be connected by family and/or the mutual need for secrecy.
The children's abnormal bodily functions and JBR being tarted up like a whore have always been huge red flags for me since the beginning of this case.

GreenJeans

Somebody at the Ramsey house called "9-1-1" on Dec. 23 and did not speak to the police. So a car went round to their house to check on them.
That's the "official" story. But it seems to me the events of Christmas morning were already being stage managed by the police.

"246 as creepy as it is, pedophiles and cult members can and do have rings and they protect each other"
99.999999% of pedophiles do not belong to rings.
"The children's abnormal bodily functions and JBR being tarted up like a whore have always been huge red flags for me since the beginning of this case."
Being in child beauty pageants means you're part of a pedophile ring? LOL!!!!!! Lots of vain women enter their daughters in those things. They aren't pedophiles, just tacky women who think being pretty is all that matters.

Is it at all possible that the murder happened on the 23rd, prior to or at the time of the earlier 9-1-1 call?
A mom entering her daughter into pageants may not be a sign of abuse, but the pageant scene is known to attract pedophiles looking for victims.

Did they say she was sexually abused, R258? Link?
Didn't it say this - that they gave "assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death."
Doesn't it say they covered up and allowed an abusive situation to happen - someone else did it, they knew and covered it up?

R259, Pediatricians are required to report possible sexual abuse. Even after her death, is the doctor being investigated?

Whoa there, R259. This is Datalounge not some crime sleuth website. No one here claims to be experts in the case. If anything, many have posted questions inquiring about evidence and details surrounding the case. You seem to be familiar with the case. Could you answer some of the questions posted by curious posters up thread? I still am waiting to hear where it was published or reported that Burke was still wetting and deficating in bed.

"A mom entering her daughter into pageants may not be a sign of abuse, but the pageant scene is known to attract pedophiles looking for victims."
There is no evidence to suggest that pageant girls are more likely to be abused than other kids. You are inventing "facts" to bolster your argument.

R259, I thought the autopsy report wasn't conclusive on the possibility of sexual abuse during/just before the murder and found nothing to support prior sexual abuse.

R265, I asked that at some point earlier in the thread and someone replied that the indictment doesn't mean a third party other than Jon and Patsy was involved, just that the grand jury didn't know which one of the two was the perpatrator, so intended to charge them both for the murder and also for covering up for each other.
This doesn't mean a third party (and I don't envisage Burke) wasn't involved and we still don't know what was in the rest of the indictment.

It's shocking the detective were not allowed permission to bug their homes and cars. They applied for that and were denied.
Steve Thomas mentions another case where this paid off. On that wiretap (a case in Florida about a missing child) they record the mother saying how bad she feels and the husband saying "I feel bad too. I didn't mean to hurt her."
And the wife then says "She's buried now. I don't want to talk about it."

Will the truth come out once John dies? Will people then talk? What about the Whites? Will they ever talk? Is there speculation?
Was not the entire indictment revealed to the public, r270? If not, why not? Is someone trying to get it released?
I wonder if Beth Holloway has an opinion on John's guilt or innocence since she dated him.

If Beth Holloway dated him, she obviously thinks he's innocent, Einstein. She's wrong. He did it himself or he's covering up for Patsy and/or Burke. Either way, John's guilty.
If Burke didn't do it, I would look for him to come clean about that night at some point, probably after John dies.
I don't understand how/why people think that John Ramsey was some sort of omnipotent player at large. He was an average-rich businessman, there are tons of them. They don't control doctors, police, district attorneys, judges, etc. That's not how it works.
Rich people hire good lawyers and work the system. That's what the Ramseys did in this case and someone in that family got away with murder. It's not a satanic pedophile ring or Dr. fucking No at work.

R272, apparently only four pages, were released out of a total of 18. I don't know why the other pages weren't made public and we only got the four we did because a journalist petitioned to have the indictment made released.

Only one person did it. John Ramsey. Patsy was guilty of being an idiot. But she was sedated alot.

It was john. I hope when he dies fleet white will talk.

"If Beth Holloway dated him, she obviously thinks he's innocent, Einstein. "
Um. She's not dating him anymore. Ever misjudge someone prior to getting to know them? She has an opinion. She likely realized he had sociopathic tendencies while she was dating him.
You, r273, need to loosen up and lose your self righteous attitude.

Fuck off, frau at R277.
I reiterate:
[quote]Rich people hire good lawyers and work the system. That's what the Ramseys did in this case and someone in that family got away with murder. It's not a satanic pedophile ring or Dr. fucking No at work.
R277, don't you need to go pick up your overweight kids at the mall? Yes, you do. I hope there's a handicapped parking spot available for you and your "free" Rascal scooter.
When you get back home, stick to iVillage.

I have exaggerated a bit below but I truly believe this is somewhat how this went down:
After a few too many drinks at the Xmas party, Patsy was feeling like a strong southern woman. Grabbed JonBenet by the arm and said, "If you pee your bed tonight, little lady, I'm gonna spank you on your sugar bowl!"
Sure, enough, she peed the bed.
Patsy starts spanking JonBenet with a hair brush. "I'll teach you to defy me!" wack wack wack.
JonBenet: "NOOOOOOO!"
Patsy: "Don't NO me you little minx! Take this!" "WHACK WHACK, WHACK!"
JonBenet is thrown against the bathtub and her head is caved in. Near death.
Patsy: "Well, isn't this a fine kettle of fish?!"

Read this from 1999. I have no doubt its SRA!
District Attorney Alex Hunter has turned over new information to Boulder police and the FBI that he says could provide a major breakthrough in solving the 3-year-old JonBenét Ramsey murder case.
The information is from testimony and documents provided voluntarily by a 37-year-old California woman who was brought forward by Boulder attorney Lee Hill. The woman said she has suffered a lifetime of sexual and physical abuse, beginning at age 3. Her story, if true, could mean the Ramsey case is tangled in sexual abuse and involves more people than originally thought.
Hunter said he finds the woman to be "very believable." Boulder police detectives, however, aren't so sure.
"Even if only 15 percent of what she says is true," Hunter said, "this case warrants investigation. And if Boulder cops don't want to do it, I will take the case to the U.S. Attorney."
Police Chief Mark Beckner said Thursday, "Though our detectives did not find her to be credible, we are taking what she said seriously.
"I'm interested in finding the truth no matter where it leads us."
Beckner said the first thing his detectives will do is perform a thorough background check of the woman and meet with her therapist of 10 years in an attempt to corroborate her story.
Hill, who is a former San Diego County deputy district attorney and former special assistant U.S. attorney and is experienced in investigative work, said, "She is among the most credible witnesses I have ever interviewed." He is representing the woman in her decision to give information to authorities.
The woman has described to police years of sexual and physical abuse in California homes at the hands of adults who stayed at holiday and other parties after other guests had left for the evening. Then, she said, another "party," one of sexual abuse for the gratification of a select group of adults, would begin.
In talking to detectives, the woman draws parallels between sexual techniques used at these sessions and the physical evidence of garroting that investigators found on the body of JonBenét Ramsey. The woman told detectives she believes JonBenét was killed accidentally when an asphyxiation technique used to stimulate an orgasmic response during a child sex and porno "party" went too far.
The woman told police she knows firsthand about asphyxiation (choking) to produce a sexual response because it had been done to her when she was a child. The woman said in her experience little girls were dressed provocatively and trained to say provocative things, such as, "It's a pleasure to please you."
She told police that when girls did not perform as expected, they were struck on the head. That was because their hair covered the wound. A big night for such "parties" was Christmas night, she said. Over the years, she said, many parties were held then because a large number of cars around a house did not arouse suspicion in the neighborhood and the children had a full week to heal from their wounds before returning to school.
JonBenét Ramsey's death occurred overnight Christmas 1996. The autopsy report concluded she suffered a blow on the head and was strangled.
The woman said she knows the Ramseys through the Fleet White family. She said the godfather to her mother is FLEET WHITE SR., 86, of California. Fleet White Jr. of Boulder and John Ramsey were close friends until the death of JonBenét.
WHITE JR WAS WITH JOHN RAMSEY WHEN JonBenét's BODY WAS FOUND in the basement of the Ramsey's Boulder home. White Jr. has since been crusading for Hunter's ouster from this case for refusing to prosecute the Ramseys.
Ramsey's attorney, Bryan Morgan, declined comment. Fleet White could not be reached Thursday.
Police cleared White as a suspect in April 1997.
Attorney Hill said the woman came forward because she was fearful for her life. She came to believe that people involved in child sexual abuse in California were becoming suspicious that she might try to talk to authorities. Hill said her main reason, however, was to try to save "other innocent vict

The woman in r282's link sounds like a nut. If you have ever read about the witch hunts in Wenatchee, Washington her story sounds recycled from those accounts (which turned out to be lies, of course)

Well isn't it odd that this woman and her therapist disappeared off the face of the earth not long after this disclosure?
This woman had left everything -- her apartment, her clothes, her belongings, even her car, so that anyone stalking her wouldn't know that she was escaping. They were on their way to an airport 4 hours away so that the witness wouldn't be spotted leaving Los Angeles. She was on her way to Colorado. After her disappearance her testimony was subsequently disregarded by authorities and DA Alex Hunter. How convenient.

"After her disappearance her testimony was subsequently disregarded by authorities and DA Alex Hunter. How convenient."
Pretty easy to disregard someone's testimony when it totally defies logic and doesn't match up with how real predators act.

Predators that YOU know of, R285. That you read about somewhere or saw on tv or the web. You are not an insider, don't pretend to be.
With the revelations coming out of Toronto about the pedophile network, it's time to consider the ugly possibility of networks of ritual abuse.

suffer%20the%20children

It doesn't defy logic at all. In fact, generational Satanism and Satanic Ritual Abuse is the only thing that makes sense. Boulder CO is rife with generational Satanists, and very wealthy and powerful ones at that.
Mountains of circumstantial evidence points to the parents involvement, whether they did it directly or something went terribly wrong. There is no doubt that Jonbenet was consistently sexually abused, not to mention her sister who started complaining about it, and ended up dead.
Also, JonBenet started to speak up about people in black robes abusing her, and she had been taken to the doctor 60 times in one year for repeated yeast infections. Her vagina was twice the size of a normal 6-year-olds.
The handwriting from the ransom note was an 82% match to Patsy Ramsey. One of the things that would explain this is that she is a programmed multiple and one of her sub-personalities is responsible. Her front personality may not even know.

I see my comments brought out the tinhats.

r285

John Ramsey's daughter (from his first marriage), Elizabeth, had uncovered several vivid memories of Satanic, ritual sexual abuse after a failed suicide attempt (during the ensuing therapy sessions) in which her father apparently played a major role in the rituals. Within several months of uncovering the memories and going 'public' with them (talking to friends and family members) she was dead - killed in a 'freak' car accident the manner in which has never been fully resolved to investigators satisfaction.

Some weird info:
The DA Alex Hunter's daughter-in-law was the mistress of John Edwards, Her name: Reille Hunter. Patsy Ramsey died of cancer soon after, and then, Mrs. Edwards died of same kind of cancer.
Then there was a high profile Australian actress whisked away from the Christmas Eve party, Nicole Kidman, maybe?
John Ramsey dated the mother of another
abducted girl, Natalie Holloway.
It is clear from the statements of both Detective Colson and Char Blazer that the Boulder authorities were very interested in a connection between the death of Jonbenet and what appears to be organized pedophilia on a national level, perhaps with a criminal Government license.
The William Morris Agency has close ties to NBC News. It was NBC which broke the current JonBenet Ramsey story. The William Morris Agency also represents up and coming child models and had solicited a contract from the Ramsey’s for the 'services' of JonBenet. It should also be noted that in early 1996 the Denver Police had been investigating a Denver Child-Porno Protection ring linked to and run by none other than the Wm. Morris Agency and FBI Div. #5
John Ramsey ran a company called Access Graphics with offices in the Philippines, Amsterdam, Holland and Denver, Colorado. Access Graphics did business with the Wm. Morris Agency and had service contracts directly with what is commonly known as Iran Contra. Access Graphics major bank accounts were parked at the noted Iran Contra money-laundry Silverado Savings and Loan and administered by none other than Director of Silverado, Neil Bush, George W. Bush's brother. Ramsey was also on a list of witnesses never subpoenaed by former Iran Contra Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh. It can now be reported that Ramsey had either knowingly, or unknowingly, pimped his daughter out as a prostitute to the Wm. Morris Agency who were taking these child 'Models' and using them to provide sexual services for pedophiles in Government, Industry and so on in addition to their Modeling shows

R287, wow, her vagina was twice the size of a 6yr old? this was in the reports?

No, r291, it wasn't. Just the "reports" in r287's head.

No it wasn't in his head, R292, it was in the autopsy report. I tried to link two threads on datalounge and a few others and have found that I can't. Educate yourselves.

anon

google the threads relevant to jonbenet and datalounge, then google vanityfair/jonbenet pediatrician. There's a world of knowledge out there.
This is the clearest case of a massive cover-up I've ever seen.

R293, the autopsy report says nothing of the sort. You are a liar and made that shit up.
At link is the autopsy report. Where on earth does it say her vagina was twice the size of an average 6-year-old's or that she had yeast infections?
Claims such as "her vagina was twice the size" are the sort of crap gay men who know nothing about women's physiology come out with.

R297 That is not the full report that I read.
I never lie nor do I make anything up, which, to my recollection, are one and the same you fucking idiot. Do some more research before you open your big, fat trap.
You must make the people in your life cringe.

anon

That is the autopsy report. Which report were you referring to, r299? The one in your head? Link, please!

Don't know about official autopsy report, but the female officer who was on the scene first, in her interview three years later said she was there for autopsy as well and they concluded that it was obvious she had been sexually molested for some time. The interview is on YouTube.

The female officer had medical knowledge and could tell that by observing the autopsy? Did she say JonBenet's vagina was twice the size of an average six-year-old's?
Please, people, if you're going to make grand statements and claim things that are not publicly stated anywhere else, then provide a link or source.
Oh, and r301, since you don't know about the official autopsy report then you can read it at the link I posted at r297. In fact, I'll post it again for you. It doesn't mention any signs of prior sexual abuse, so who knows what your imaginary female officer is meant to have seen.

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said.
The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds.
"The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."
There were also blood and urine stains on her underpants. A considerable obstacle to investigators, according to one well placed source in the D.A.'s office, was the fact that "the crime scene and the body were cleaned up, although not sterilized."

TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not. Prior to the night she was killed?
TOM HANEY: Correct.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have been violated like that?
PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This is the absolute first time I ever heard that.
TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely did not.
(rest of interview at link)

R300
I see you're too lazy to click on other people's links.
I don't know where I read the original info on JB's sexual abuse as my old desktop went BOOM and my files could not be retrieved, but I did, however, just read the Vanity Fair article linked on the previous page.
I know it's a lot for someone like you to read so I'll just copy the pertinent info. You're welcome, shithead.
"Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." There were also blood and urine stains on her underpants. A considerable obstacle to investigators, according to one well placed source in the D.A.'s office, was the fact that "the crime scene and the body were cleaned up, although not sterilized." Adding to the mishaps, the coroner didn't examine the body until seven hours after it was discovered, and then spent only 10 minutes at the crime scene."
You seem head-bent on trying to convince people that JB wasn't sexually abused when all the facts clearly point to the fact that she was.
Maybe you just like to be annoying because you show zero interest in the truth. You certainly don't like to hear anything or anyone other than yourself and your ignorant opinions.
I can just imagine you around the Thanksgiving dinner table. I'd have to bring a flask to cope with your arrogance.

anon

R300
Also, "fathead", try googling JB's pediatrician. You will see how many times she was taken, in her short life, and what the sick bastard has to say about it.
I also suggested googling JB and datalounge.
There were two threads with all the linkies you'd ever need. Are you too lazy or is it that you just don't give a fuck?

anon

Cyril Wecht is a nut

From the Denver Post legal reporter: JB's pediatrician saw no signs of previous sexual abuse. No mention in the autopsy of previous abuse either.

Dear moron, neither Dr. Cyril Wecht nor Dr. Robert Kirschner conducted the autopsy on JonBenet, so they don't have a fucking clue. The coroner who did conduct the autopsy, however, gave no indication of any prior sexual abuse. Wecht and Kirschner are basing their opinions on the coroner's report, not their own studies. Of course, they come up with the conclusion that enables them to insert themselves into the media story.
The idiot at r303 also forgot to check his own sources. Right above the extract he cites, we read:
"Dr. Richard Krugman, a specialist in child abuse brought in as a consultant by Hunter's office, says that there was a vaginal abrasion, which "is a sign of trauma,[but] it's not a sign of sexual abuse necessarily." "
Moreover, the vaginal opening is not the same as the vagina, so even here we don't have any claim that JonBenet's vagina was twice the size as normal for her age (as I said, gay men trying to talk about women's physiology is a joke).
No, r306, you have given me credible links, just some nonsense you culled from the internet. You do realise there's a lot of nonsense on the internet, don't you?

I guess the Boulder Police Department interview with Patsy did nothing for you.

Dum%20Dum

R306, good point. That is odd JB went to a pediatrician sooo many times as a young girl for vaginitis!
I am a 44 year old lady and I haven't had over 20 cases of vaginitis!

A

I can't see a child getting vaginitis unless she has an unusual allergy to the fabric of her underpants, or to laundry detergent, or possibly to the soap or bubble bath products used in cleansing. A simple request to use hypoallergenic products for very sensitive skin should have solved it immediately.

Not only that, she took her to a gynecologist. At 6-years old?
There was one report that said Jonbenet's vagina was double the size of a normal 6-year old.
Please, if that poor little girl wasn't chronically sexually abused from day one...

I haven't clicked on the links but if the parents are connected to the DA etc, it's not hard to imagine that they influenced the outcome of the autopsy. Just think how the cause of death of so many celebs etc were "covered up" or wording changed to protect their image etc.
But did the report states that she still had her hymen? If she's been sexually abused, she wouldn't have it would she?
Well, it's unusual for a 6yr old to have "trauma" in that area.

John Ramsey is a BILLIONAIRE! That's the ONLY reason this dude's NOT in prison. The ONLY reason this case is not completely solved.

On paper, lots more people fall into the billion range these days.

I thought a recent interview w John Ramsey mentioned he was living w reduced circumstances ...no private planes, etc.

A

None of the reports from the coroner or any medical professionals who actually examined JonBenet said anything about her hymen being broken, her vagina being expanded, yeast infections or any shit like that. Some idiot may have read some fabricated bullshit written by an unrelated lunatic on the internet, but crap on the internet is not a "report".
R314, if the parents "influenced" the autospy then it makes no difference to claims about the size of JonBenet's vagina or a possible pattern of sexual abuse, because anyone making those claims would still not be making them on the basis of an examination of JonBenet's body, dead or alive, but on the basis of what their personal version of how she died is. They would still be guessing and inventing.
But, no, the autopsy report showed nothing about broken hymens of expanded vaginas. In the absence of such evidence, we can assume her hymen was intact and her vagina was normal. There is no evidence of a pattern of sexual abuse.
What the autopsy did show is that there was an abrasion around the outside of her vagina presumably caused at the time of the attack, although it was not clear what caused this and there is no clear evidence that she was penetrated by a penis. Obviously, something evil and tragic happened to JonBenet, but that doesn't mean we should make up crap. All that does it make it even more difficult to establish what did happen to her and who did it.

R318, Do you believe R306 that the little girl was taken countless times to a doctor and to a gynecologist? That's highly unusual and if true should have been reported to authorities immediately.

"John Ramsey is a BILLIONAIRE! That's the ONLY reason this dude's NOT in prison. The ONLY reason this case is not completely solved."
Rich and powerful people can be arrested and even go to prison. Where do you think Phil Spector is now?

John Ramsey was never a billionaire.
JonBenet's vagina showed signs of molestation.
Those are facts.

Maybe not personally, R321, but he sold his company to Lockheed Martin for a billion dollars.

The recent Canada pedo ring arrests show that such a thing is possible.
Ramsey's adult daughter died in a suspicious traffic accident.
Facts.

No, r319, I don't believe what r306 said. R306 either made that up himself or is a gullible idiot who read it on some bullshit internet site and just believes any old shit he comes across.
JonBenet was not taken countless times to a doctor and gynecologist. She may have gone several times to a doctor as any kid does, but not for sexual reasons. As you say, if it were true her doctor/gynecologist would have reported it immediately. Since no such reports were ever made, then it's not true.
You may retort with the standard "but the Ramseys paid them to keep shut". Aside from that being a level of systematic corruption on a scale unseen, if the doctors did keep shut and did not reveal anything to anyone, then how the fuck did r306 hear about this purported abuse?
R321, the exterior of JonBenet's vagina had an abrasion although no clear signs of penetration and it's not apparent just what caused the abrasion. Certainly, something very nasty happened to her on the night she died. But, there is no evidence of systematic child sexual abuse before that evening, and all the claims about infections and expanded vaginas are just bullshit.

What is the evidence that Ramsey's elder daughter died in suspicious circumstances? That's the first I've heard of it.

"What is the evidence that Ramsey's elder daughter died in suspicious circumstances?"
That's because there is no evidence of that.
"The recent Canada pedo ring arrests show that such a thing is possible."
Those people were exchanging child porn using the anonymity of the internet. They weren't getting together to party and molest kids.

Investigators were trying to find evidence of a pattern of sexual abuse in the family. There are people in the know in law enforcement and judicial circles, but they can't say anything because they'll be sued for defamation. Doesn't mean that they're wrong, just means that they can't prove it in court.

R323 is deranged.
John's older daughter from his earlier marriage died in a tragic (not suspicious) accident.
The idea that the Canadian pedophile ring sheds any light on the Ramsey case, with its staged victim and preposterous ransom note, is absurd.

The case of Marc Dutroux is also informative. A complicit judge delayed the trial. 27 witnesses died mysteriously before the trial finally took place. Research it yourself and draw your own conclusions.

"The cases are similar, R330, as is the Franklin Scandal amongst many others, because they deal with pedo rings that cater to the rich and powerful."
Tinhat alert. There was no "pedo ring" in this case. Franklin scandal is bullshit.

People so often wish to deny the simple and obvious explanation.

John killed his daughter 17 years ago tonight.

R336 speaks the truth.

R324 you are so OTT with your hysterical molestation denials - something cray cray obviously went down in your childhood. I can see the hamster in your head furiously trying to run away from your own repressed and denied memories with your staunch refusals to click on links or read reports, transcripts-- only your own mind tells you there was no abuse. Keep telling yourself that. It's obviously protecting you from some dark shit.

I totally believe John did it. But I'm loving the whole pedo ring tinhats! They make it fun. I also absolutely believe JBR was sexually abused. And I believe by John.
However, I was a chronic bedwetter until I was about 11 and I was never abused. It seems bedwetters stay in REM sleep for too long, which is why they don't "wake" up or have the body control to stop the piss. (My sister's kid was also a chronic bedwetter and she took him to a specialist.) They're in too deep a sleep. So, sometimes pee is just pee and not indicative of anything else.

What the he'll is the current DA waiting for? Or is he scared shitless of John?

It was Burke. He did it in a jealous rage. He was already doing things like substituting chocolates in a gift box from one of her pageant wins with balls he made from his feces. He also had already smacked her in the head before with a golf club.