If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

Last week I was out of town and only saw three quarters of the three preseason games before watching the Houston game last night. But I've been astounded by the venom and despair in my email box, not to mention some comments and various FanPosts with folks freaking out over the performance of the team during the three preseason losses.

So I have a question: What are your expectations for this season?

Recently, I previewed the season and figured a middle-of-the-road win total would be 36 games which I think leaves a margin for error of about +/- 7 games depending on health issues and players performing to their career averages.

That's not real good, but I felt the team could certainly improve this year while not necessarily winnng many more games than last year.

For me the excitement of this season centers around the different storylines and how they emerge. The Pacers could've kept Troy Murphy around, hoped everyone stayed healthy and made a solid run at 45 wins, while likely winning closer to 40. Instead they've finally turned over some responsibility to youth with an eye toward developing the young core.

Consider the starting lineup for the current roster the Pacers are taking into the season. Darren Collison, Roy Hibbert and Josh McRoberts are all 23 years old and still in the process of developing their NBA games. Do you really think they're going to deliver cosistent production through an 82-game season?

Another area of interest is Paul George and the playing time he may earn as a rookie. The 20-year-old rook has shown some defensive acumen that may get him on the court for more than spot minutes this year. Personally, I wasn't expecting George to play much as he developed his body and game for the NBA, but it looks like he'll have a chance to play early in the season. Now if he can just make a shot or two he may be a regular.

But I'd rather see George out there playing and missing shots in an NBA crash course than have him going months at a time without any significant minutes. That's not good for the Pacers win/loss record, though.

Of course, these are practice games (as Mark Boyle would put it) that the Pacers are losing and Jim O'Brien is giving the young players, especially George, a good chunk of the playing minutes despite how well they are playing. I still expect Mike Dunleavy to play more minutes in the regular season as the team tries to win, but if George can sneak into the tail end of the rotation I'll be quite happy.

The other mystery to me is how people are so split on Josh McRoberts. McRoberts seems like the least of the Pacers' worries right now and I'm wondering if those who complain simply haven't seen him play. His game has developed by leaps and bounds since he arrived here as trade filler and effort is never an issue nor has his production when he's on the court. I'm not saying he's the final answer for the team's power forward of the future, but I also wouldn't completely rule it out. Energy/effort guy off the bench would be wonderful, but again, that's not where the team is right now.

One last thing to consider is the coaching situation. There's going to have to be a player mutiny for Jim O'Brien to be fired this year. Larry Bird stated over the summer that with the team in a state of transition, waiting on a coaching change is prudent considering that the roster will be drastically different next year combined with the NBA labor situation which will impact how they can put the future roster together. It would be kind of hard to attract a quality coach who doesn't know which players he'll be coaching.

Not to mention, Bird is in the last year of his contract so he's not sure if he'll be back whether by his choice or the team's. A new leader in the front office would want to choose the coach, so any coaching change this year, including Bird coming down from the front office, would be an interim situation at best.
So when you consider these few issues, alongwith other unmentioned issues (trade talk, injuries, adversity), we're dealing with a situation that is ripe for frustration. I realize I may be more numb to some of this than most, but we're just three practice games into the preseason schedule and from some of the reaction thus far, we're trending toward a complete meltdown before Thanksgiving. My hope is that's not the case, because even a frustrating season can still be interesting to follow.

While I felt the need to serve up a little sanity check on everyone's expectations, this is by no means intended to discourage discussion, debate or dissent among the community about each game or the day's events. In fact, quite the contrary.

Identifying problems is easy, but offering a take on those problems with potential solutions is intriguing. Let me encourage you to dig deeper into the issues. Instead of blanket statements about certain players or the coaching, offer some details or examples for others to chew on. Many of you are fabulous at just this, so please continue sharing your thoughts and observations. Also, I continue to appreciate how the community can police itself through heated debate and keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

Look, we're all in this together so we might as well make it interesting. Hopefully the Pacers will do their part and make things more interesting than expected.

The Following User Says Thank You to Trader Joe For This Useful Post:

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

I had said before preseason that I felt that going .500 was a good possibilty, with a playoff berth at either 7th or 8th.

I'd be lying if I said that the preseason isnt squashing my hopes be the game. And its not because we're losing, its how we're losing. It looks like last season's team, just a some new hopeless faces. My opinion of Danny is going down like the Hindenburg. He has become a no defense playing chucker. Roy is still weak and soft. And JOB continues to say one thing and then do another. Our offense is lost, our defense is non-existent. Lord help our Pacers.

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

Yay, another thread about how much we hate Jim O'Brien. Do the Pacers even have players anymore?

No, just the worst coach in the history of organized basketball, as well as the stupidest Front Office because they don't recognize that we could be a 100-win team if they just had a different coach.

Oh, and a collection of the stupidest basketball fans in the known universe, since we keep asking for specifics and denying that things like 2-4 on 3-pt shots is EXACTLY the same as 5-12 and therefore proves the ruin of another All-NBA first team player by insidious forces of E-vil.

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

And JOB continues to say one thing and then do another. Our offense is lost, our defense is non-existent. Lord help our Pacers.

This I don't understand. If enough of a practice is being spent on defense that the media comments on it, how is this somehow that JOB really doesn't want to emphasize defense?

There are valid statements that he should be changing how the defense is doing things instead of trying the same old thing, but he never said he was changing how he viewed defense or how he expected it to be played. Therefore, the criticism should be that his defense continues to be unworkable, not that he's saying he wants more defense but that he really somehow doesn't.

I continue to cry into the wilderness that people should bash the guy for the things he really is or isn't doing, rather than picking the handy sound bite and piling onto it.

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

This I don't understand. If enough of a practice is being spent on defense that the media comments on it, how is this somehow that JOB really doesn't want to emphasize defense?

There are valid statements that he should be changing how the defense is doing things instead of trying the same old thing, but he never said he was changing how he viewed defense or how he expected it to be played. Therefore, the criticism should be that his defense continues to be unworkable, not that he's saying he wants more defense but that he really somehow doesn't.

I continue to cry into the wilderness that people should bash the guy for the things he really is or isn't doing, rather than picking the handy sound bite and piling onto it.

How about simply looking at a win loss record that has gotten worse in three consecutive years?

Now we are only looking at facts, not opinoins

It is a fact he has complied a losing record in each season as head coach. It is a fact that the record has gotten even worse the last two years

Thereby this can not be a bashing of a coach but merely a factual record

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

How about simply looking at a win loss record that has gotten worse in three consecutive years?

Now we are only looking at facts, not opinoins

It is a fact he has complied a losing record in each season as head coach. It is a fact that the record has gotten even worse the last two years

Thereby this can not be a bashing of a coach but merely a factual record

OK, so you think any and every coach who had the same record in years 1 and 2 and then worse record in season #3 by 4 games should be fired regardless of anything else that is going on. And every coach that has done the opposite shouldn't be fired, regardless of other factors?

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

Lord knows I really do not like Jim, but he hasn't exactly been handed a decent team of smart players. I think other coaches could do alot better, but I doubt that any of them would take the job this year. This team is more young and raw than old and savvy...

Larry Bird IS walking through that door, but, alas, he is not suiting up.

My biggest concern is the rotation. That is Jim's biggest problem IMO, he doesn't seem to see which players gel together well. I expect alot of Posey at the 4 and Mike D at the 2. Which of course is disastrous, but they are the vets who seem to understand the NBA game.

I was pretty sunshiney after the trade, but seeing how raw these guys are... which is the majority of the roster... I think we are going to be worse than last year. I can see us getting a top 3 pick in next years draft.

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

OK, so you think any and every coach who had the same record in years 1 and 2 and then worse record in season #3 by 4 games should be fired regardless of anything else that is going on. And every coach that has done the opposite shouldn't be fired, regardless of other factors?

Ever seen the Pet Detective? Where he talks out of butt? I see that alot around here

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

This I don't understand. If enough of a practice is being spent on defense that the media comments on it, how is this somehow that JOB really doesn't want to emphasize defense?

There are valid statements that he should be changing how the defense is doing things instead of trying the same old thing, but he never said he was changing how he viewed defense or how he expected it to be played. Therefore, the criticism should be that his defense continues to be unworkable, not that he's saying he wants more defense but that he really somehow doesn't.

I continue to cry into the wilderness that people should bash the guy for the things he really is or isn't doing, rather than picking the handy sound bite and piling onto it.

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

OK, so you think any and every coach who had the same record in years 1 and 2 and then worse record in season #3 by 4 games should be fired regardless of anything else that is going on. And every coach that has done the opposite shouldn't be fired, regardless of other factors?

That is the way the NBA works, how long do you want to keep JOB until you figure that his plan is not working? He is been here for three years already and that is more than enough to see if he is the right coach and as you know I don't think he is.

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

How about simply looking at a win loss record that has gotten worse in three consecutive years?

Now we are only looking at facts, not opinoins

It is a fact he has complied a losing record in each season as head coach. It is a fact that the record has gotten even worse the last two years

Thereby this can not be a bashing of a coach but merely a factual record

The problem is that every other reason for such a thing is tossed out as an excuse, which makes it a tautology: "the only valid reason for losing is a bad coach, the team was losing, therefore the coach is bad".

That is the reason I want specific "why" about how come JOB is the sole reason for those losses, and the "why" needs to be grounded in something other than a sound bite. Lord knows I wrangle with Seth, but he gives sound reasons for his poor, misguided opinions

At a certain point calling everything but what supports your own opinion an "excuse" is just an excuse...

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

OK, so you think any and every coach who had the same record in years 1 and 2 and then worse record in season #3 by 4 games should be fired regardless of anything else that is going on. And every coach that has done the opposite shouldn't be fired, regardless of other factors?

in this particular case absolutley yes

There are always going to be room for "excuses" but judging the Jim O'Brien era as a whole, I think he should have been let go at the all star break last year

I also think if he were in a bigger market he would have been fired at minimum, 2 years ago

I struggle to see anything in the last two years that would leave me to believe there is progress, in fact I seen a downward spiral

Please remeber it was Larry Bird himself who said after firing RC that "coaches get tuned out by their players after 3 years" so Bird essentially went against his own beliefs in extending Jim

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

The problem is that every other reason for such a thing is tossed out as an excuse, which makes it a tautology: "the only valid reason for losing is a bad coach, the team was losing, therefore the coach is bad".

That is the reason I want specific "why" about how come JOB is the sole reason for those losses, and the "why" needs to be grounded in something other than a sound bite. Lord knows I wrangle with Seth, but he gives sound reasons for his poor, misguided opinions

At a certain point calling everything but what supports your own opinion an "excuse" is just an excuse...

I never said Jim was the entire reason, but this is a results orientated business, and judging by the lack of progress in my opinion, Jim needs to go. Again I take it back to sales, if my revenue stream is increasingly going downward, regardless of circumstances, I am ultimetly responsible, and will be judged on thsoe numbers regardless. In using this methology, Jim would be relieved of his duties

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

I never said Jim was the entire reason, but this is a results orientated business, and judging by the lack of progress in my opinion, Jim needs to go. Again I take it back to sales, if my revenue stream is increasingly going downward, regardless of circumstances, I am ultimetly responsible, and will be judged on thsoe numbers regardless. In using this methology, Jim would be relieved of his duties

The part of your metaphor that you don't consider is that if the product isn't good (or there are better products available), it's a tough sell. In this case you are blaming the salesman for everything and overlooking the fact that the product itself has to improve.

Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

I never said Jim was the entire reason, but this is a results orientated business, and judging by the lack of progress in my opinion, Jim needs to go. Again I take it back to sales, if my revenue stream is increasingly going downward, regardless of circumstances, I am ultimetly responsible, and will be judged on thsoe numbers regardless. In using this methology, Jim would be relieved of his duties

But IS Jim ultimately responsible? If the FO hasn't given him the players, or if you grant that some of those excuses are really valid reasons, and if you wouldn't be able to replace him with anyone useful for the same money, you might not let him go even if the results aren't what you want.

Not every job is measured solely by the bottom line, and those which are often shouldn't be.

In my business, if the numbers match or are better than the forecast, and if the forecast was agreed upon by management and those responsible for making the numbers, then those responsible for making the numbers have done their jobs.

By your methodology, if a great coach is suddenly given an all-rookie team, he'd be fired because his numbers went down and he is ultimately responsible. It's more complex than that.

What you are saying, I think, is that you believe that there were available coaches at no major salary increase who wanted the job with the Pacers who would have done a better job. To say you could get a coach for the same money who would do the same would essentially be advocating change for change's sake.

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh