... and to all the other human beings who suffer horribly too
[In reply to]

Can't Post

but without being ever even mentioned in the news anywhere... For me, dear Esquey, the whole human condition is what needs to be prayed for, and also what God is giving his/her attention to all the time - including the inner flaws in those two specific humans who are called Bob Shaye and Peter Jackson, and the specific good, potentially useful things that are prevented from happening for the world because of this specific case of human stupidity and greed. I took that as the one sample of it all that we, here on this TORn Movie Discussion board, could try particularly to address in that specific context, that's all. It doesn't mean of course it's the only thing on my mind or that I am praying for. But actually it's all the same, you know... God is trying through all that to make us feel the need of evolving further, of developing that higher and truer consciousness, which alone will solve all of those problems, the big ones as well as the small ones, for they all spring from the very same root-cause; the present state of consciousness of humankind.'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

Also, not knowing at all the circumstances in my own life, perhaps you should not assume that only if I am among the blessed (?) ones who don't have any great problems personally, would I post an invitation to prayer for this specific need. It so happens that I see behind this apparently insignificant case what needs to be prayed for always and in all cases: human nature in the distressing condition that it is in everywhere until now, and will remain in as long as we human beings don't do all we can to evolve further, by activating the spiritual part in us that is waiting to be brought fully into our lives, so as to bring about our true potential as a species... 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

that is a sample of the 'reams of good advice' that you can send, please do go on sending, and I hope other people may listen!... Joke apart, I'm really glad someone here is expressing with her own simple but moving words a way of relating to God, to prayer and to all in life that we may weep over, that I can relate to fully myself! It is the way of the heart , the one I love so much to find also in Tolkien... ... Which is precisely why it seems relatively important to me for the world to have a film like 'The Hobbit' being given to it, just as already the LOTR films have been given to it: if more people would see this kind of films, less would be so lost and desperate in life as to massacre other people, on top of taking their own life too...'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

lies so many years in the dim past behind me now, that I can't remember who it was that said something which has stuck with me ever since: "Two hands working accomplish more than 1000 clasped in prayer." How many hands does it take to start a petition? Eh, bad example, I suppose. What would Samwise do?

big and small (not to fry them, though!!! ), and may very well consider that everything is one whole big problem to be healed, in which every apparently small victory counts as much as all the apparently big ones, for everything helps everything else... just as Tolkien's heroes understand so well, and this is what finally enables the final Victory to happen in their part of the Story. Now we are in yet another age of Arda, but the root of all our problems is still exactly the same: only there is now no material 'Ring' to destroy, but the Ego that emprisons and slowly poisons our being. Of THAT universal problem to be solved, Bob Shaye and Peter Jackson are as good examples as anybody else, and the way their stupid dispute blocks something potentially useful for the world from happening, is one problem that is directly relevant as a topic to our TORn Movie Discussion board, when many other problems that have been mentioned by other posts are not. So, as Aunt Dora Baggins pointed out very wisely, God may very well listen; and I would add that in the all-seeing, all-loving eyes of God, such a specific prayer, specifically on our part here, would be seen as at least perfectly appropriate, for sure. 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

Well, that's just the spirit of what I'm talking about too!!!
[In reply to]

Can't Post

If you go back to my original post up there and read it a little more carefully, you will see that what I was inviting all of us to pray for was NOT the victory of this fellow or that fellow, this camp or that camp, but on the contrary the victory of all on their own egoes, so that at last a harmonious solution could be found that all would agree upon - and THAT would be God's will indeed!... I don't care at all actually what that solution might be in the end, the only thing that really matters for me is that harmony comes back, for only in harmony can another good film (or a better one even than the LOTR films) be produced, bringing more good Tolkien stuff to the public - ourselves included - and having good results again in many of us... which is why that possible film does matter much for me. But you were perhaps influenced unfavorably in reading my proposal, by the impression you probably still have in you, that I have attacked and vilified you badly in another post of mine, back there in that long thread about 'The Pity of Bilbo'. There too, if you take the trouble to have another look now, you will see that, as I explained immediately in two answers to you in two different places, my unusual (for you) way of speaking and my akward attempt at joking (you are so good at it, I was trying to follow you on that, stupid me!...) only gave you that impression, when it was not at all the case. Communication can be so difficult and full of traps between people who don't know each other well - and additionally in this case, don't even speak the same mother tongue - I was doing my best, but apparently used an expression which for me is not an insult at all, but for you was, and so you ended up feeling I must be a troll or something. So now here you are interpreting what I said the wrong way again, I'm sorry to say, although this time I don't think it's my fault: if one read really what I had written in my proposal, there was no way it could be so entirely misunderstood as apparently you did. I guess we'll have to keep trying to understand each other, and get better at that every time. But please, now if you can, go back to that other thread and read what I answered you in those two places, it might already help. I hope, at least!... 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

it's based on a total misreading of my proposal as I've actually written it and wish you had understood it. It's certainly not just another blockbuster that I invited us to pray for, and I think I made that pretty clear. Whatever you may like to imagine my own beliefs are, still I imagine yours to be actually not so different from mine: you probably believe it's one rule of the game here to do one's best to understand what people may write in their posts? I certainly believe the same thing, so I would expect you next time to make an effort to do just that, instead of making fun of what you haven't taken first the trouble to read properly. 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

so many people here seem each to be trying to write the funniest post about how bad my proposal is, it's getting a bit difficult for me to follow; my own wits are this time dazed and perplexed by what you have written, to the point that I am not even sure whether you are for or against my proposal... Would you please make your point a bit clearer, whatever it is?... 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

that is, 'How do you know I'm not also praying for those things? This subject line could have been better formulated, but the contents of the post itself, I do hope, clarify everything that many of you have reacted against when first seeing my proposal - which then you may see again, with different eyes. 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

A fellow atheist! Of course I commit the the worse crime of all and admit I don't really care whether The Hobbit is made or not. Or is that one step too far? (Sorry, Mae govannen - I'm not trying to get at you. :-))

made me feel I was one of you overthere, far away in miles counting but so close in the poignancy of our pain. Thank you for that. 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

the fact is although I wouldn't mind seeing PJ make the Hobbit I am, in fact, annoyed at this somewhat constant incitement for us to DO SOMETHING. This feels the same to me as all the telemarketers that call... all the solicitors who ring my doorbell... They all have noble worthy causes and they're all a bit chagrined that I don't find their cause worthy enough to give money to... but I don't decide how to direct my attention and energy by who bangs on my door the longest and loudest. On a continuum, I'm probably more on the intolerant and grouchy end than most people about this.

And, to be perfectly honest, *I* am dismayed that this issue is getting so much attention. We all have things we'd love to see happen in our life But I just can't imagine ... and I mean that literally... living in a world where this amount of focus would be given over to getting a movie made under specific parameters. I know nothing about you other than this is the only issue you want to talk about and you are constantly asking US to do something. The only positive spin - and I was looking for positive because this was the alternative - was to think that your life was blessed enough so that you could give your attention to it. It's not that my life isn't blessed that I don't give attention to it... I am blessed. I'm just not blessed with an empty slate of things to act on. My attention is focused on many items: some personal, some family, some community, some environmental, some social activism, some involving world peace. I don't know what your slate looks like. Mine's full. I could make the same requests for help in any of these items (and I actually did for a personal item in another venue). But mostly I just own the list I've created or been given and I do what I must or what I choose without petitioning for help.

next, my faith is other than Christian and I'm don't do the prayer thing. I'm immersed in a Christian society so I accept that I tread amongst you who do pray. And when someone asks for prayers for personal reasons, what I take that to mean is that they want us to keep them in their thoughts (and I realize they may also want the prayers but would be happy for my warm thoughts). I am happy to do that. But my faith does not petition for what we want. I can easily give personal support, encouragement and warm wishes within the context of my faith. I can hope that people could learn to get along together and stop killing each other. But I feel a whole lot less comfortable petitioning a higher power for a specific act to happen. To do so would presume that we know what is best and that ITEM A would result in the perfect solution. Are you absolutely convinced that PJ wants to make the Hobbit with NL? Are you absolutely convinced that he doesn't privately hope that this falls off the board so he can make it with a different studio? Are you absolutely convinced that this is the right time for him to make it and he doesn't have reasons - private, family, business - for hoping it gets postponed a little? This feels wrong to me. It feels a little like a mother-in-law praying for grandbabies with no regard to what her son and daughter want. It feels too much like, "Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz. I just can't be happy with out my Mercedes Benz." Perhaps it feels so wrong to me because I'm not Christian. But it feels uncomfortably wrong within my paradigm of spiritual faith. And it feels uncomfortably wrong because you keep wanting us/me to help you and I feel harassed.

I am prepared to accept that it is my issues that make this feel wrong and harassing. If it feels right to you and to others on this board, then you must have your say. I will do my best to just stay away. In fact, the one thing I will own is that I'm probably neglecting something on my slate to even fuss this much over this item. Best I just go attend to them. A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.

[reply] As far as stories are concerned, I believe LOTR and The Hobbit to be amongst those that can influence humanity the most in the right direction[/reply]

Words can be very powerful agents of change, for good or ill, and there's a lot in LotR that is very important: words about hope in the face of darkness, about doing our duty even we don't have hope. I'm not sure I see The Hobbit in quite the same light, but I didn't think your idea was improper. I certainly don't think it deserved getting jumped on the way it did. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

I am prepared to accept that it is my issues that make this feel wrong

Actually my wife feels the same way. Her religion says it is *very* wrong to pray to affect someone else's life without their express permission. Like praying that someone changes their belief in God, or sexual orientation, or whatever. I agree with that too. I met a Balrog on the stair He had some wings that weren't there. They weren't there again today. I wish he would just fly away.

I recognized your intention and did not interpret it as being insensitive. I, among many others have shed countless tears this week each and every time I see photos of those young ones whose lives were snatched away so ruthlessly. I also recognize the need for humanity to come together in this time of violence and seek a better solution.

In this time of great sorrow in the U.S. and indeed the world over for the senseless murders at V-Tech, and the copy-cat sickos that are emerging from under their rocks...it would indeed be refreshing to have something to look forward to. Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back.... Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Formerly A'amel from days gone by.

in the horrible days after 9/11 how looking forward to FotR gave me something to help lift the anguish a little.

In Reply To

In this time of great sorrow in the U.S. and indeed the world over for the senseless murders at V-Tech, and the copy-cat sickos that are emerging from under their rocks...it would indeed be refreshing to have something to look forward to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

on people like Fred Phelps, and leave it to God to sort out what that might mean. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

...I've had personal contact with some of his pinheaded goons who were despicably protesting at the military funeral of the only son of a dear friend. So I don't feel very charitable towards him and his thugs. I met a Balrog on the stair He had some wings that weren't there. They weren't there again today. I wish he would just fly away.

this is the only issue you want to talk about and you are constantly asking US to do something. ' What you're saying here is total astonishment for me, Magpie. What may have given you such an impression I have no idea, but it is simply not true. I think I have participated in about all the various threads on all the new discussion boards since the end of March when I was able to join in those new boards, and I even checked systematically on all that had happened before that; as for the few discussions since then where I have only lurked on, it wasn't because I wasn't interested, but because I didn't feel competent: for those specific threads one had to be competent and knowledgeable enough, and I was not. As for 'The Hobbit' movie, far from speaking all the time about it, I have kept on the contrary rather quiet about it until now, never mentioning it but for answering someone else's mention of it; so if you did get this feeling of harassment on this topic, it is certainly not by me!!! Only just in these last few days I happened to read two interviews that reported the feelings of two more actors about it, and I knew some people here would be interested in reading those interviews, so I mentioned them myself in a post - without making any particular fuss about it. This proposal of mine is actually the very first time I am inviting other people to do something about it - not because it's the only thing I think about all the time (oh my! what a strange idea!...) but because it seems to me we could do something about it now in a different way, in a different spirit, and that might be worth trying - only for those who feel concerned by that situation, obviously; the others don't need to pay any more attention to that post of mine than to any other they don't feel concerned about; that's just the normal thing on TORn discussion boards, isn't it? So perhaps those feelings of harassment have built up in you over quite some time from seeing that topic coming up a bit too often for your taste, but to accuse me now of being the cause of that feeling is a totally baseless accusation - objectively speaking, that is. By the way, you believe also that I am a Christian, when I am not, and have stated already in several posts that I am not; even in the proposal you incriminate, I spoke of prayers because that's what most other people relate to best, but I added good thoughts and something else I don't remember now; what I am sure of is that I emphasized the 'power of our thoughts and of the love in our hearts' , certainly not 'prayers' as such. 'I can hope that people could learn to get along together and stop killing each other.' At least one thing we can agree on!!! 'But I feel a whole lot less comfortable petitioning a higher power for a specific act to happen. To do so would presume that we know what is best and that ITEM A would result in the perfect solution.' Well, I didn't think I had been that specific either??? All the things you mention - rightly - after that, I am indeed not sure of at all, that is exactly why I had left it all rather open - or so I thought, but now seeing it through your eyes I see that it wasn't yet open enough, or my words didn't convey enough the necessity of keeping it open, although it was what I felt too, just like you. I can only regret then that you didn't say these things - kindly - before, so that the intention behind what I was proposing could find a wider, truer formulation, to which you and probably some other people could have agreed. Well, I hope this will at least dispel once and for all those wrong notions you had about me. One thing that is a passion for me just as for you is the music for LOTR that Howard Shore has been inspired enough to compose. But I can never participate in the threads you propose about that, simply because I am not able to: so I do lurk and learn what I can from what other people say... One of the reasons, though, why I would like PJ to do 'The Hobbit' (with or without NL) is in fact that I really long to have more of Howard's Shore's wonderful Middle-earth music to listen to... *sigh* 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

my culture is French instead. As for the rest of what you're saying now, you'll have to elaborate a bit on those few cryptic words, for what you say is hardly believable as it is, and sounds actually as the very contrary of what you are saying!!! 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)