From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 30-JUN-1999 11:34:00.39
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
Hello DBC!
> of variables that are unavoidable in home visits. That is, if I can
> see the patient and owner on my turf, both are forced into an
> uncomfortable social posture and, I believe, tend to present a more
> honest picture to me.
I have to disagree because I think there will be far more
impression management (on the client's part) in your office than in
the client's home. The client will be more relaxed at home and more
likely to reveal discrepancies between what they say and what they do.
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 30-JUN-1999 12:38:50.34
To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@aps.uoguelph.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
In a message dated 6/30/99 12:36:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA writes:
<< of variables that are unavoidable in home visits. That is, if I can
> see the patient and owner on my turf, both are forced into an
> uncomfortable social posture and, I believe, tend to present a more
> honest picture to me.
I have to disagree because I think there will be far more
impression management (on the client's part) in your office than in
the client's home. The client will be more relaxed at home and more
likely to reveal discrepancies between what they say and what they do. >>
I have done both home consultations exclusively and office consultations
exclusively and feel that with a good history taking technique, video tapes
if needed and owner drawn maps of the home good information may be obtained.
As for discrepancies between what they say and what they do, you see those in
the office as well. When a stranger enters the home, the environment is
changed and in the 13 years I did home calls, I rarely saw the pet engage in
the problem behavior or at least in the way the owner described. The
exception to that would be territorial behaviors. Having said that, if a
person feels that an office visit did not give them the information they
needed, they could always do a home visit. In the final analysis, I believe
a practitioner of applied animal behavior must use techniques they are
comfortable with and feel are effective. IN other words. both probably work.
Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB
Veterinary Behavior Consultations
St. Louis, Missouri 63044
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 30-JUN-1999 12:41:26.28
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
I don't believe that there is an absolute right or wrong when deciding
whether consults should be conducted at the client's home or in the surgery.
Here are a few observations form my own experience:
I have had cases (especially stereotypies) where direct observation in the
correct context was important. These were cases where the referring vet was
convinced that the owner was fabricating the signs as a justification for
repeat visits to the surgery; the dog behaved (relatively) normally at the
clinic.
Occasionally it is hard to appreciate how modifications to the owner's
routine will fit into the way they run their home without seeing it.
Clients will sometimes lie about the circumstances in which a pet is kept,
but seeing for yourself resolves any argument.
Some cats live in depressingly boring environments which are devoid of
places to sit, hide or play. you need to get photographs or see this for
youself so you can make suggestions for changes.
Clients appear more relaxed in their own home and may volunteer information
that they are not prepared to in the context of a formal veterinary surgery.
This appears to be an effect of the setting.
From my own experience it is easier to persuade/convince/get commitment from
clients in a formal consult away from their home because the formality of
the situation has an effect on a particular kind of receptivity (see
Milgram's work on 'obedience to authority' for some information on this).
I am collecting information from my own cases on this, and I know that this
is highly specific to my own caseload and my own abilities, but I feel that
some clients show a different level of commitment and seem to get better
results after a formal consultation than one in their own home. This could
vary between practitioners and clients.
The conclusion I have come to is that you have to make an educated choice
about how you gather the information.
Be flexible and be aware of the effect of the counselling setting and your
ability to overcome problems through counselling skills; if you have to use
a consulting room then try to design it to get the best compromise between a
formal and informal setting. For information on this, look to books/
refences on interviewing techniques from personnel selection, psychology and
medical practice.
Use video, photographs and any other techniques needed to gather the
evidence that is not available if you don't go on a house visit.
Be prepared to visit people at home if you feel that it is useful to do so,
even if you have already done a surgery consult.
Also be prepared to call a halt to a consult and recommend a change of
setting. Ask to visit the owner's house or go on a walk if you feel it will
help.
Study the relevant areas of human psychology and counselling so that you can
make up for the deficiencies of the environment you are working in.
Thats my penny worth and I will now shut up.
Jon
From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 30-JUN-1999 13:02:51.07
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
Hello All: Just a comment
Deb and Jon have given some very valuable information re: whether
home visits OR office visits are appropriate for client evaluations.
May I remind the group that the original discussion started with a
debate on whether a client will divulge more (and more accurate
info) in their home or in the office. In other words, debating some
human psychology as opposed to debating proper behavioural
consultation practice.
Thanks.
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 30-JUN-1999 14:13:28.04
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
Deborah McWilliams wrote:
> May I remind the group that the original discussion started with a
> debate on whether a client will divulge more (and more accurate
> info) in their home or in the office. In other words, debating some
> human psychology as opposed to debating proper behavioural
> consultation practice.
> Thanks.
To answer this in a feline manner...
Tsss, tsss; who ruffled your fur ;-)
The original question posted by Georgina (from which the header ' feline
behaviuor question and introduction' was taken) was very broad.
It was a query regarding sources of information and the increasing need to
deal with behaviour problems in general practice; it concluded with details
of a specific case.
Other people decided to pick up on the topic of where to consult.
I may have received only part of this thread but none of the messages I got
indicated a specific discussion of human psychology.
It would be nice though...
Jon
From: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr." 30-JUN-1999 15:16:48.46
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Fear of thunder storms
To all companion animal specialist:
I just received a call from a police officer that has a working dog that is
fearful during thunder storms. It doesn't appear to be severe yet, the dog
will still work some but comes off track.
He has tried counter conditioning the dog by going out in the storms (alone
and with two other dogs) and trying to make the situation pleasant by
playing. He has also tried desensitization by playing a tape recording of
thunder. He can play it as loud as it will go and the dog is not phased.
He has also tried valium during the storms, which helps at the moment, but
not for the next storm.
Is their anything else he can do? The dog is some type of import breed
(sorry I didn't recognize the breed and have forgotten the name), it is
about 2 years he thinks (it was actually flown over), and lives with two
other dogs (and maybe a family- I didn't ask).
Any response would be greatly appreciated and I will pass these on to him.
Thanks in advance for any assistance. Don Lay
Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr.
Applied Ethologist
Iowa State University
2356 Kildee Hall
Ames, IA 50011
donlay@iastate.edu
515-294-2088
From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian Bregman" 30-JUN-1999 18:34:16.42
To: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr.", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Fear of thunder storms
At 04:15 PM 6/30/99 -0500, Donald C Lay Jr. wrote:
>To all companion animal specialist:
>
>I just received a call from a police officer that has a working dog that is
>fearful during thunder storms. It doesn't appear to be severe yet, the dog
>will still work some but comes off track.
>
>He has tried counter conditioning the dog by going out in the storms (alone
>and with two other dogs) and trying to make the situation pleasant by
>playing. He has also tried desensitization by playing a tape recording of
>thunder. He can play it as loud as it will go and the dog is not phased.
>He has also tried valium during the storms, which helps at the moment, but
>not for the next storm.
>
>Is their anything else he can do? The dog is some type of import breed
>(sorry I didn't recognize the breed and have forgotten the name), it is
>about 2 years he thinks (it was actually flown over), and lives with two
>other dogs (and maybe a family- I didn't ask).
>
>Any response would be greatly appreciated and I will pass these on to him.
>Thanks in advance for any assistance. Don Lay
>Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr.
IMO the best discussion on thunder phobias is in Dr. Nicholas Dodman's
excellent book, with the lousy title. It's called "The Dog who Loved too
much".
He mentions the fact that it is often not the noise of the thunder, but
rather the environmental problems, as in the dropping of the barometer,
electricity in the air, etc.
Hope this helps.
Vivian
Vivian Bregman & the Border Collies in New Jersey
Kelev Canine College Inc. * Member NADOI & APDT
CIVILIZE YOUR DOG!! mailto:vbregman@interactive.net
From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 1-JUL-1999 02:28:14.38
To: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr."
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: Fear of thunder storms
Here in the U.K. we have just had the first, rather over-publicised,
dismissal of a fully trained police-dog. The reason...he became scared
of the dark!
Regards,
Chris Sherwin
On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:15:15 -0500 "Donald C Lay Jr."
wrote:
> To all companion animal specialist:
>
> I just received a call from a police officer that has a working dog
> that is fearful during thunder storms. It doesn't appear to be severe
> yet, the dog will still work some but comes off track.
>
> He has tried counter conditioning the dog by going out in the storms
> (alone and with two other dogs) and trying to make the situation
> pleasant by playing. He has also tried desensitization by playing a
> tape recording of thunder. He can play it as loud as it will go and the
> dog is not phased. He has also tried valium during the storms, which
> helps at the moment, but not for the next storm.
>
> Is their anything else he can do? The dog is some type of import breed
> (sorry I didn't recognize the breed and have forgotten the name), it
> is about 2 years he thinks (it was actually flown over), and lives with
> two other dogs (and maybe a family- I didn't ask).
>
> Any response would be greatly appreciated and I will pass these on to
> him. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Don Lay
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr.
> Applied Ethologist
> Iowa State University
> 2356 Kildee Hall
> Ames, IA 50011
> donlay@iastate.edu
> 515-294-2088
>
----------------------
Chris Sherwin
Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
University of Bristol
Langford House
Langford
Bristol
BS40 5DU
Phone: (0117) 928 9486
Fax: (0117) 928 9582
E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk
From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUL-1999 07:31:56.31
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
I agree 100% with Dr. Horwitz. The more techniques to
accomplish the purpose the better. This give us more versitility and
flexibility. This is what I tried to convey in my initial post by
alluding to the "all-roads-lead-to-Rome" concept.
Desh
Reply to message from DebHdvm@aol.com of Wed, 30 Jun
>
>In a message dated 6/30/99 12:36:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
>DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA writes:
>
><< of variables that are unavoidable in home visits. That is, if I can
> > see the patient and owner on my turf, both are forced into an
> > uncomfortable social posture and, I believe, tend to present a more
> > honest picture to me.
>
> I have to disagree because I think there will be far more
> impression management (on the client's part) in your office than in
> the client's home. The client will be more relaxed at home and more
> likely to reveal discrepancies between what they say and what they do. >>
>
>I have done both home consultations exclusively and office consultations
>exclusively and feel that with a good history taking technique, video tapes
>if needed and owner drawn maps of the home good information may be obtained.
>As for discrepancies between what they say and what they do, you see those in
>the office as well. When a stranger enters the home, the environment is
>changed and in the 13 years I did home calls, I rarely saw the pet engage in
>the problem behavior or at least in the way the owner described. The
>exception to that would be territorial behaviors. Having said that, if a
>person feels that an office visit did not give them the information they
>needed, they could always do a home visit. In the final analysis, I believe
>a practitioner of applied animal behavior must use techniques they are
>comfortable with and feel are effective. IN other words. both probably work.
>
>Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB
>Veterinary Behavior Consultations
>St. Louis, Missouri 63044
>
>
--
^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
< \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013
! ! --------------------------------------------
.. In vino veritas. In cervisio felicitas.
From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 2-JUL-1999 08:02:09.27
To: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: Fear of thunder storms
The behav. mod. is vital, but you made no mention of drug therapy.
IMO drugs are vital also. They calm the patient enough that the B.M.
can get through in a reasonable time. (Don't forget that we have to deal
with the owner's commitment time line. If they are not reinforced in
some reasonable time frame they give up, or at least subtlely lower the
intensity and consistency of the B.M. to the point that it loses some or
all of its effectiveness.)
Clomipramine combined with melatonin would be my first choice
for the drug side of the Tx.
One comment on the B.M.: I would emphasize what Bill Campbell
calls "Jollying". I describe this to my clients thusly, "When your dog
shows any signs of anxiety, ignore the anxiety and you do things so
wild and overtly silly that if you did them in a public park, they would
throw a net over you and drag you away. The message is: I am having so
much fun, and you love, respect and want to emulate me so much that you
will forget your problems to join me at my party." It helps, and some
clients, and especially their kids, have great fun with it (which is
reinforcing to them; thus keeping the Tx at a high level).
Reply to message from donlay@iastate.edu of Wed, 30 Jun
>
>To all companion animal specialist:
>
>I just received a call from a police officer that has a working dog that is
>fearful during thunder storms. It doesn't appear to be severe yet, the dog
>will still work some but comes off track.
>
>He has tried counter conditioning the dog by going out in the storms (alone
>and with two other dogs) and trying to make the situation pleasant by
>playing. He has also tried desensitization by playing a tape recording of
>thunder. He can play it as loud as it will go and the dog is not phased.
>He has also tried valium during the storms, which helps at the moment, but
>not for the next storm.
>
>Is their anything else he can do? The dog is some type of import breed
>(sorry I didn't recognize the breed and have forgotten the name), it is
>about 2 years he thinks (it was actually flown over), and lives with two
>other dogs (and maybe a family- I didn't ask).
>
>Any response would be greatly appreciated and I will pass these on to him.
>Thanks in advance for any assistance. Don Lay
>
>
>Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr.
>Applied Ethologist
>Iowa State University
>2356 Kildee Hall
>Ames, IA 50011
>donlay@iastate.edu
>515-294-2088
>
>
--
^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM)
< \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013
! ! --------------------------------------------
.. In vino veritas. In cervisio felicitas.
From: IN%"ngourkow@unixg.ubc.ca" "Nadine Gourkow" 2-JUL-1999 08:34:45.38
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Cat-Stress Score
Dear all
Could I get some feedback to the following questions from people on the =
use of the Cat-Stress- Score ( Kessler & Turner, 1997) or the McCune =
Welfare Index (McCune, 1992) in the shelter environment:=20
1.. What is the best assessment schedule to follow to get a clear =
picture of stress overtime?
2.. Is it important to always do the assessment at the same time =
since the level of activity in shelters can vary greatly from AM to PM?
3.. Which test corresponds most closely with the interactive =
behaviour a cat may engage in with visitors to the shelter?
Thanks in advance
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 2-JUL-1999 11:15:55.89
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology"
CC:
Subj:
Dear all,
here is the list of replies I got from the request for information on =
web
resources for behaviour, human psyc etc that i posted some time ago.
I was intending to post this but forgot...sorry.
thanks to all of those who supplied information.
here are the replies;
see Netvet index of veterinary specialities (sent as file attachment)
http://netvet.wustl.edu/vet.htm
Dr Mario Lopez Oliva
Presidente
Asociacion Argentina
de Veterinaria Equina
Tel 54-11-47849498
Movil 4414-6907
mlos@ciudad.com.ar
ICQ# 6596304
We have built a catalogue of behaviour & welfare resources on diskette =
over
the last 2 years and now supply this on diskette, please see our webiste =
for
further details:
http://www.pighealth.com/Products/POIDISK.HTM
This diskette of Internet tips and resources started as a service for =
our
pig interest clients, hence the name "pigs on the Internet", but it has
broadened out its scope over the past year to a wider livestock content.
Best Wishes
Mike Meredith
For animal welfare sources, see:
http://worldanimal.net
With Kind Regards,
Janice Cox
Some of these may be useful:
Llamas- http://www.llamaweb.com/About/welcome.html
An elephant communication experiment-
http://www.dolphinsociety.org/4.index.htm
Primate sites- http://www.primate.wisc.edu/pin/
primate cognition-
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/primatecognitionlab/herblab.html
Animal behavior bulletin from IN University:
http://www.cisab.indiana.edu/PAB/PABB/
I wasn't sure, if your interests included non-agricultural animals, such =
as
primates.
Evelyn
Hi, I read your email to the applied Ethology discussion group and would
like you to add our web site to your list please. I am a Certified =
Applied
Animal Behaviorist (Animal Behavior Society) and have a private =
consulting
practice called H.A.B.I.T.S. (Human Animal Behaviour Interactive =
Training
Services Pty Ltd). Our Web site is www/habits.com.au and my =
practice
email address is habits@it.net.au.
regards
Graham Adams
I'd try :
http://www.animal-welfare.org.au/
and
http://www.apbc.org.uk/subjects.htm
Could you please send me the fully compiled list, please?
MANY THANKS
Paul McGreevy
From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 4-JUL-1999 09:26:07.49
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC: IN%"donlay@iastateedu"
Subj: RE: Phobias
In a message dated 7/4/99 2:31:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
k9acad@iafrica.com writes:
<< He has tried counter conditioning the dog by going out in the storms
> > (alone and with two other dogs) and trying to make the situation
> > pleasant by playing. He has also tried desensitization by playing a
> > tape recording of thunder. He can play it as loud as it will go and the
> > dog is not phased. He has also tried valium during the storms, which
> > helps at the moment, but not for the next storm. >>
Counterconditioning is teaching a task that is incompatible with what the
animal was doing previously. Taking the dog out in the storm and trying to
ghet hime to play is not doing that. The dog needs to know how to perform
the task well without the phobic stimulus and then when exposed to low levels
of the stimulus asked to perform the task. Sometimes teaching the dog to
relax on a verbal command into a "down-stay" when the stimulus is not present
and then asking for the down-stay may help during the stimulus.(I hope that
is clear) Noise phobias can be very difficult to treat due to the large
number of variables that cause the condition and therefore may be nearly
impossible to reproduce. These include but are not limited to: thunder, wind,
rain, lightening, drop in the barometric pressure and changes in
electromagnetic field during the storm. This limits desensitization
effectiveness. Often dogs can "improve" with treatment and drug therapy but
I would be concerned about the reliability of a working dog, especially one
who is used in life or death situations. When stressed, and then exposed to
the phobic stimulus the animal may not perform the necessary tasks. In
addition, the phobic behavior, especially if noise is a large component of
the stimulus could generalize to other noises, i.e. gunfire. If the phobia
is severe, this may limit the usefulness of this dog for police work.
Debra Horwitz, DVM, DACVB
Veterinary Behavior Consultations
St. Louis, MO 63044
From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 4-JUL-1999 10:53:57.03
To: IN%"georginafox@gafox.freeserve.co.uk" "Georgina Fox"
CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: feline behaviuor question and introduction
Hi Georgina;
A few more details about the cat in question's lifestyle prior to being
rescued would be helpful. For example was her mother feral? Did she lead
the life of a feral cat up to six months of age?
In my experience(I have a spayed female cat that was feral and judged to
be about a year old at the time of rescue)certain behaviours are
hardwired. After eight years my cat still resents being picked up, will
not tolerate having her belly rubbed and runs to her den? when I come
home. She has never purred and in fact exhibits what I call 'feed me
then leave me alone' behaviour.
Personally I accept this as her personality that I am not going to
change.
Hope this helps
John
Georgina Fox wrote:
> Just a short note to introduce myself everyone on this applied
> ethology email list:I am a small animal veterinarian, 1996 graduate
> from the University of Queensland, Australia. I am currently working
> in Plymouth, England. I have very limited experience with animal
> behaviour cases and have found knowledge in this area in increasing
> demand from clients. I find the most difficult questions to answer are
> those when clients request detailed information on behaviour
> modification techniques/training techniques, the owner can implement
> at home. That is to be carried out alone or in combination with
> behaviour modifying drugs. Often I find myself referring the clients
> to animal behaviour specialists, but would like to be able to assit
> with the simpler problems. For example presently I have a client
> that has presented me with an 18mth old DSH speyed female cat, which
> she adopted as a stray at 6 mths of age. She finds it unacceptable
> that the cat is extremely nervous and timmid, with humans in
> particular, after 12 mths of trying 'everything to win this cat over'
> . It is an indoor/outdoor cat, they have 1 other cat that gets along
> very well with the above cat. The owners have done all they can to
> provide a loving, stress free environment. There are no other problems
> such as inappropriate urination/daefication/aggression or territorial
> problems. There was no abnormality on routine clinical
> examination. The owners feel they havent really got a pet and are
> giving up qiuckly. Has anyone got any ideas on techniques the owner
> can use at home to gain the cats trust, and to create a better
> owner-pet relationship/bond?? I realise that cats are not dogs, but I
> thought you might be able to assist me here. Thanks in
> advance, Regards,Georgina Fox (BVSc)
From: IN%"mlinnane@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "MARY LINNANE" 5-JUL-1999 10:15:53.26
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: pedometers.
Hello everyone,
A question on behalf of a fellow student:
Does anyone know where to get and how to modify pedometers to use as
a means of estimating the number of steps taken/distance travelled by
a cow on a general day out at pasture?
Maybe pedometers are not the way to go, maybe someone out there has
measured this aspect of behaviour differently.
Any information would be greatly appreciated,
Mary.
From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 5-JUL-1999 12:48:37.54
To: IN%"mlinnane@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "'MARY LINNANE'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: pedometers.
We were handed out blurb at ABS last week on some fantatsic contraption to
do just this. All my junk mail from that conference is at home, but i'm sure
someone else on the list will have it in their office!
Cheers
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MARY LINNANE [mailto:mlinnane@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE]
> Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 10:10 AM
> To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: pedometers.
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> A question on behalf of a fellow student:
> Does anyone know where to get and how to modify pedometers to use as
> a means of estimating the number of steps taken/distance travelled by
> a cow on a general day out at pasture?
> Maybe pedometers are not the way to go, maybe someone out there has
> measured this aspect of behaviour differently.
> Any information would be greatly appreciated,
> Mary.
From: IN%"mlinnane@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" "MARY LINNANE" 7-JUL-1999 02:22:00.86
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Pedometers
Hello again,
Just a quick note to thank everyone for their help regarding
information on where to get pedometers, the associated pitfalls,
alternative ways of recording distances travelled/steps taken etc.,
so............."Thank you people!"
Mary.
From: IN%"donlay@iastate.edu" "Donald C Lay Jr." 8-JUL-1999 17:02:32.65
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Fear of thunder storms - thanks
Thanks to all that replied to my request for help for the police dog that
is fearful of thunder storms. I have forwarded all of the responses to the
officer and I believe he will be in touch with at least some of you.
Hopefully, things will work out for the best. Thanks! Don
Dr. Donald C. Lay Jr.
Applied Ethologist
Iowa State University
2356 Kildee Hall
Ames, IA 50011
donlay@iastate.edu
515-294-2088
From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 8-JUL-1999 22:31:08.93
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: carrying cat
Some friends of mine have adopted a neutered male cat. He's proving to be
a great pet, but he insists on carrying cloth objects around. He drags
stuffed toys and towels off the shelves, and has pulled the tablecloth and
table setting off the table. None of this would matter much, except that
he does this 'work' at night and vocalizes constantly as he does it,
keeping the humans awake.
Any idea what this is all about, and how to stop it, or at least get him
to shut up about it?
My apologies - I know this isn't really the right forum for this, but no
one around seems to be able to offer any suggestions.
From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 9-JUL-1999 02:21:37.20
To: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
Hello! I work in a city shelter and spend my time there socializing dogs and
cats (as well as other creatures who are impounded. We see behavior problems
of all kinds. I'm sure you'll get lots of excellent responses from
knowledgeable ethologists on this list, but thought I'd throw in my two cents
worth based on my limited experience. I would guess that he is suffering the
effects of severe sensory deprivation. Did your friends adopt him from a
shelter? Shelters are notorious for their lack of environmental stimulus.
This poor fellow is seeking interaction with someone, something, anything.
And as you know, cats are, unfortunately in this case, most lively at night.
The only solution I can think of is to get this fellow a companion - a young
female perhaps (as he is neutered)?
Hope your friends will hang in there with him. It'll will be worth the
trouble, because with love and perseverance, cats who actively attempt to
connect, can make wonderfully affectionate pets.
Good luck!
Chris Hurley
From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 9-JUL-1999 06:14:12.72
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" "Dr. Petra A. Mertens", IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" "Claude Beata", IN%"emmanuel.gaultier@wanadoo.fr" "Emmanuel Gaultier", IN%"gmuller@nordnet.fr" "Gerard Muller", IN%"joe
CC:
Subj: Help please
Does anyone have any information on the use of
Thioridazine in dogs? I have been appraoched by a vet who
is being asked by a client (a psychiatric nurse) to
prescribe this drug for her dog!! If you have any
information about uses, doses etc I would be very
interested!The dog concerned is reported to have severe
generalised anxiety, restlessness, pacing, repetitive
behaviours, "over reaction" to noises etc. There is no
aggression. The owners report that the dog does not "enjoy
life". This is information from the owner via the vet - I
have not had any direct contact with the owner.
Many thanks
Sarah
From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 9-JUL-1999 12:10:14.97
To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "'Robin Walker'", IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "'Sarah Heath'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"BLHART@ucdavis.edu" "Benjamin Hart (Internet)"
CC:
Subj: RE: Thioridazine
Hi all,
let me throw in my ha'penny's worth on this one.
Thioridazine, is a neuroleptic (antipsychotic), most commonly used in the
treatment of positive symptoms in schizophrenia, and "tics" in turettes
(which is probably why the drug was asked for, in response to the reptitive
behaviours the dog is showing). This class of drugs are all D2 receptor
antagonists. They have two general classes of side effect:
1. "Parkinsonian" catalepsy. i.e. a general supression of movement and
behaviour (through a suppression of the motor system).
2. Neuroleptic-induced Tardive Dyskinesias (TD). i.e. a range of pervasive
and unpleasant repetitive movements, especially of the orofacial region, and
upper limbs. TD is seen in animals treated long term with these drugs.
As a result of TD side-effects, I would do anything I could to avoid putting
any animal on this kind of drug long-term. This is reinforced by the fact
that I have serious reservations about the actual efficacy of these drugs
against reptitive behaviours. In short, I have yet to see a study which
attempts to use this class of drugs to treat repetitive behaviours in
animals which controls for the parkinsonian side effects. So as of yet I
have seen no evidence that the action of these drugs against stereotypy is
specific. i.e. the supression of stereotypy could be due to the general
suppression of all motor output. In fact, reading between the lines, you can
sometimes find circumstantial evidence that this is exactly what is going
on.. for instance "the dog returned to a docile and obedient nature".
The issue is further complicated by what KIND of repetitive behaviours the
dog is displaying apart from pacing. There are a range of drug treatment
options which are likely to reduce these behaviours, which may or may not be
more effective against particular classes of behaviour. In the case of true
stereotypies, the cataleptic side effects of these drugs are the best
explanation for their effectiveness (in my opinion). Incidentally, the
efficacy rate is generally poor. So essentially, these treatment options are
cosmetic, they are certainly not addressing the cause of the problem either
physiologically or environmentally, and as a result there is no guarantee
that you are improving the internal life of the animal AT ALL.
My personal opinion is that drugs should be used as an absolute last resort
in these cases, after you have exhausted all possible lines of behaviour
therapy, and environmental alteration. Even then, you still have the option
of using drugs (such as fluoxetine) short term during behaviour therapy. In
this case for instance, you might like to begin with issue of anxiety and
over-reactivity. If you deal with this problem, you might find you have
dealt with the eliciting factors for the repetitive behaviours.
I have forwarded this message, and Sarah's original request to Ben Hart at
UC Davis. He's a vet who specialises in behaviour problems, (rather than a
researcher), so he might have some more specific advice.
Cheers
Joe
___________________________
Joseph Garner
Univeristy of California
Department of Animal Science
One Shields Avenue
Davis
CA 95616
USA
Phone: (530) 752 5362
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Walker [mailto:robin@coape.win-uk.net]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 7:08 AM
> To: 'Sarah Heath'; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Dr. Petra A.
> Mertens; Claude Beata; Emmanuel Gaultier; Gerard Muller;
> joel.dehasse@advalvas.be; Patrick Pageat; DebHdvm@aol.com; tiny de
> keuster; wayneh42@aol.com
> Subject: RE: Help please
>
>
> This might be of interest:-
>
> Robin
>
> J Am Vet Med Assoc 1987 Jul 1;191(1):89-90
>
> Use of thioridazine in the treatment of aberrant motor
> behavior in a dog.
>
> Jones RD
>
> Thioridazine, a phenothiazine derivative, was used in a dog
> to treat aberrant motor behavior consisting of tail
> mutilation, aggression, random biting into the air, frenzied
> locomotion, and vocalisation. Use of this drug resulted in
> control of the behavior, which allowed the tail to heal. The
> dog returned to a docile and obedient nature.
>
> Robin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Heath [SMTP:heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk]
> Sent: 09 July 1999 21:05
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Dr. Petra A. Mertens;
> Claude Beata; Emmanuel Gaultier; Gerard Muller;
> joel.dehasse@advalvas.be; Patrick Pageat; DebHdvm@aol.com;
> tiny de keuster; wayneh42@aol.com
> Subject: Help please
>
> Does anyone have any information on the use of
> Thioridazine in dogs? I have been appraoched by a vet who
> is being asked by a client (a psychiatric nurse) to
> prescribe this drug for her dog!! If you have any
> information about uses, doses etc I would be very
> interested!The dog concerned is reported to have severe
> generalised anxiety, restlessness, pacing, repetitive
> behaviours, "over reaction" to noises etc. There is no
> aggression. The owners report that the dog does not "enjoy
> life". This is information from the owner via the vet - I
> have not had any direct contact with the owner.
> Many thanks
> Sarah
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 9-JUL-1999 08:25:45.67
To: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "'Sarah Heath'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca", IN%"Petra.Mertens@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" "Dr. Petra A. Mertens", IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" "Claude Beata"
CC:
Subj: RE: Help please
This might be of interest:-
Robin
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1987 Jul 1;191(1):89-90=20
Use of thioridazine in the treatment of aberrant motor behavior in a =
dog.
Jones RD
Thioridazine, a phenothiazine derivative, was used in a dog to treat =
aberrant motor behavior consisting of tail mutilation, aggression, =
random biting into the air, frenzied locomotion, and vocalisation. Use =
of this drug resulted in control of the behavior, which allowed the tail =
to heal. The dog returned to a docile and obedient nature.=20
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Heath [SMTP:heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 09 July 1999 21:05
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Dr. Petra A. Mertens; Claude =
Beata; Emmanuel Gaultier; Gerard Muller; joel.dehasse@advalvas.be; =
Patrick Pageat; DebHdvm@aol.com; tiny de keuster; wayneh42@aol.com
Subject: Help please
Does anyone have any information on the use of=20
Thioridazine in dogs? I have been appraoched by a vet who=20
is being asked by a client (a psychiatric nurse) to=20
prescribe this drug for her dog!! If you have any=20
information about uses, doses etc I would be very=20
interested!The dog concerned is reported to have severe=20
generalised anxiety, restlessness, pacing, repetitive=20
behaviours, "over reaction" to noises etc. There is no=20
aggression. The owners report that the dog does not "enjoy=20
life". This is information from the owner via the vet - I=20
have not had any direct contact with the owner.
Many thanks
Sarah
From: IN%"jpgarner@ucdavis.edu" 9-JUL-1999 12:43:15.26
To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "'Robin Walker'", IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "'Sarah Heath'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"BLHART@ucdavis.edu" "Benjamin Hart (Internet)"
CC:
Subj: RE: Thioridazine
Hi all,
ooops, Just realised a mis-information. Ben Hart, is also, in fact foremost,
an ethologist. He teaches animal behaviour at the vet school here at UCD,
and runs a behaviour therapy clinic.
Cheers
Joe
From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 10-JUL-1999 23:41:24.39
To: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: carrying cat
One suggestion that I would make is to simply stop him from doing his
"work" at night. Both my sister and I have cats that sleep the night in a
small dog carrier so that we can get a decent night's sleep. My cat likes
to play, on my face, at about 5 AM. I am not generally in a mood to be
danced on at this time of day. My sister's cat is very affectionate. She
loves to purr, purr, purr, right in my sister's face. My sister is
slightly allergic to cats and, however friendly the intent, this is also
not conducive to sleeping. Putting both of these cats in carriers, either
at the foot of the bed or in the next room seems to have solved the sleep
problems for both of us. In each case, the cats adapted quickly to the
arrangement and do not seem terribly put out. My sister's cat now seeks
out her carrier during the day as her own special place to sleep.
I am not sure what is the genesis of the carrying behavior, except that the
cat seems to be distressed. Possibly being confined, close to the owners
might be soothing. It will probably take about a week or so for the cat to
adapt to this arrangement and during this time, the noise may increase.
They will need to know that this will happen so they can stick it through
this stage until the cat adjusts. As always, with any behavioral problem
in a companion animal, make sure that medical problems have been ruled out.
Janice Willard, DVM, MS
At 10:30 PM 7/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Some friends of mine have adopted a neutered male cat. He's proving to be
>a great pet, but he insists on carrying cloth objects around. He drags
>stuffed toys and towels off the shelves, and has pulled the tablecloth and
>table setting off the table. None of this would matter much, except that
>he does this 'work' at night and vocalizes constantly as he does it,
>keeping the humans awake.
>
>Any idea what this is all about, and how to stop it, or at least get him
>to shut up about it?
>
>My apologies - I know this isn't really the right forum for this, but no
>one around seems to be able to offer any suggestions.
From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 11-JUL-1999 01:42:21.17
To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: carrying cat
Call me an extremist, but I find it distressing that humans are forever
attempting to modify instinctive behavior in animals. Cats are normally
active at night. Surely there's a way to find a human compromise on this
one? Like give the creature something to do at night and someone to do it
with?
Chris Hurley
From: IN%"bergerulr@bluewin.ch" "Berger Ulrich" 11-JUL-1999 04:33:26.86
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: phobias in domestic/non-domestic animals
Dear all,
I am a Swiss vet.practitioner interested and partly working in clinical
ethology.
I would like to present you the following problem: All of you probably
know dogs (cats?) presenting phobic reactions produced by thunderstorm,
shooting, firework etc.
Definition in Karen Overalls book: < ..profound and quickly developed
fear reactions that do not extinguish with gradual exposure to the
object or with exposure...involve sudden, all-or-nothing, profound,
abnormal responses that result in very fearful behaviors (catatonia,
panic)..>
Definition in P. Pageats book: (transl. from french) < Phobia is a state
of fear which is systematically produced by a stimulus, and which does
not decrease in frequency or intensity even when the animal experiences
the innocuity of the stimulus..> So far in my opinion the 2 definitions
are corresponding.
Pageat goes on and differentiates between:
- ontogenic phobia, which in his system of theory corresponds to "stade
1 du syndrome de privation" (deprivation syndrome, stage 1); Definition
of "stade de privation": Emotional and mood (french: thymiques)
disturbances, developing in 3 steps (phobia-chron. anxiety-depression),
caused by insufficient sensorial stimuli from the puppies living
environment during the development of the brain/CNS in the first 3
months of age.
- post-traumatic phobia developing after one single contact with a
stimulus at any age of life.
I see a lot of thunderstorm/firework/shooting noise etc. phobias in dogs
and in my opinion Pageats theory is quite evident. This theory would
mean that "ontogenic phobia", developing since puppyhood would be a
problem of domestic species only.
My questions: Did anybody of you work on this/make observations (perhaps
only anecdotical) about such "ontogenic phobias" in other especially in
not domesticated species?
What about this question in human beings? Where could I as a simple vet.
practitioner get some actual knowledge about this?
Thank you in advance Ulrich
Dr. Ulrich Berger
Thunstr. 43
CH-3510 Konolfingen
Switzerland
tel: +41 31 791 27 27
fax: +41 31 791 39 04
email: bergerulr@bluewin.ch
From: IN%"ngourkow@unixg.ubc.ca" "Nadine Gourkow" 11-JUL-1999 21:17:25.44
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: looking for an address
Dear all
I have the wrong e-mail address for Dr. Mirjam Bohne Kessler. Does =
anyone have her current e-mail.
Thanks
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 12-JUL-1999 02:43:33.05
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
I agree with Chris; is it a good idea to stifle a normal pattern of
activity/behaviour when it might be possible to divert to an alternative
instead?
Cats are crepuscular animals, so they will be active at dawn and dusk.
Depriving them of this activity might not be good for their health.
If the cats are so keen to interact with the owner at these times of day
then it is possible that they either have an attachment problem, or that the
behaviour has been inadvertently reinforced by the owner.
Deal with these alternatives first.
Also, are these 100% indoor cats we are talking about?
My cats are given free access to the garden and would not dream of bothering
me at night; they have much better things to do.
The cat may have nothing else to occupy its time.
One other observation; my cats (all four) emit a very urgent sounding cry
(it often sounds like they have been injured) when they are carrying prey
that they have caught; particularly if it is still alive.
They wander around the garden and house with the animal in their mouth for
some time as if searching for a suitable place to continue
mangling/eating/playing with it, and will often bring it to me if I am
around.
If i take the animal away from them (often to dispatch it) the cat will then
wander as if searching, making an even louder version of the same plaintiff
cry.
Is it possible that the object carrying and vocalisation that has been seen
in this case are related to this 'I have prey' alert.
Jon
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-JUL-1999 03:27:38.16
To: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "'JB'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
There seems to be a reflex to "break" a habit or "eradicate" a behaviour
rather that to seek an explanation or provide alternatives. I have
no doubt that people still "brake" the nocturnal hamster's wheel
in pursuit of their own sleep ration.
The notion that cats bring prey home for their owners is universal
and, I suspect, wholly anthropomorphic.
I think the cat is looking to cache its prey for future consumption
but has "forgotten" (lost the evolutionary program) how.
A box of sandy soil or loose leaves and twigs might provide
a caching area. Perhaps "Mommy" needs to show how to do it :-)
Don't forget the most interesting observations on the need to lick
fur off carcasses and the virtues of frozen "mousicles" to provide
oral gratification for cats. These comments were posted earlier in
the year.
-----Original Message-----
From: JB [SMTP:rondog@btinternet.com]
Sent: 12 July 1999 09:39
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Re: carrying cat
I agree with Chris; is it a good idea to stifle a normal pattern of
activity/behaviour when it might be possible to divert to an alternative
instead?
Cats are crepuscular animals, so they will be active at dawn and dusk.
Depriving them of this activity might not be good for their health.
If the cats are so keen to interact with the owner at these times of day
then it is possible that they either have an attachment problem, or that the
behaviour has been inadvertently reinforced by the owner.
Deal with these alternatives first.
Also, are these 100% indoor cats we are talking about?
My cats are given free access to the garden and would not dream of bothering
me at night; they have much better things to do.
The cat may have nothing else to occupy its time.
One other observation; my cats (all four) emit a very urgent sounding cry
(it often sounds like they have been injured) when they are carrying prey
that they have caught; particularly if it is still alive.
They wander around the garden and house with the animal in their mouth for
some time as if searching for a suitable place to continue
mangling/eating/playing with it, and will often bring it to me if I am
around.
If i take the animal away from them (often to dispatch it) the cat will then
wander as if searching, making an even louder version of the same plaintiff
cry.
Is it possible that the object carrying and vocalisation that has been seen
in this case are related to this 'I have prey' alert.
Jon
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 12-JUL-1999 05:50:33.56
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
What Robin says sounds reasonable.
The homes of many of my clients are devoid of places for cats to hide, and
they might well have problems with finding a suitable place to stach their
prey.
My comment about the cats bringing me prey wasn't meant to be
anthropomorphic, but I think it was anthropocentric!
I am sure that the reason why my cats 'bring me their prey' is simply that I
spend my time in parts of the house where they often also prefer to be
(cooler, quieter, etc).
As a human being I probably attach greater importance to my own presence or
absence than the cats do!
I favour finding things for the cats to do, and modifying the environment as
Robin suggests; to provide ways of enabling the cats to complete sequences
of behaviour that may be a nuisance.
However, reinforcement should be considered as a manitainer if the cats are
deliberately going to disturb the owner.
jon
From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-JUL-1999 06:39:00.72
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
> Hi Jon!
To add to your experiential anecdotes:
> > If the cats are so keen to interact with the owner at these times
> of day
> > then it is possible that they either have an attachment problem,
> or
> that the > behaviour has been inadvertently reinforced by the owner.
I was very ill for about 2 years. During this time, I was close
to bed-ridden and was fortunate to have the almost constant company
of my two cats in bed with me. (I adopted these cats as strays, as
adults). Now that I am well, my male cat (abused by the former
owner) will not let me sleep beyond 6:00 a.m. or 7:00 a.m. If I am
not up, he yowls with this plaintive cry and appears agitated or
restless. Once I am up, he continues his day by bird watching,
playing, etc (anything, it seems, but interact with me).
I have wondered if this is a result of my illness and, perhaps,
anxiety on his part if I do not get up.
> > One other observation; my cats (all four) emit a very urgent
> sounding cry
> > (it often sounds like they have been injured) when they are
> carrying prey
> > that they have caught; particularly if it is still alive.
I breed rats and the "mom-starts-to-wean" ones sometimes "wander".
My male cat brings them to me (2:00 a.m., 7:00 p.m., whenever he
finds them) without vocalization (his vocalization, that is - the
rodent is usually quite noisy).
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-JUL-1999 08:56:11.20
To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Deborah McWilliams'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
One of my clients has a Siamese that gets on the bed every morning
and bites his nose to awaken him.
After endless "why does he do it?" "How do I stop him?" questions and
the realisation that the owner really was uninterested in changing
anything, I got out my forensic textbooks.
One illustration is of a corpse with the head severed by a pet dog which
had got hungry waiting for rescue. Maybe these little carnivores are
checking we are alive each morning?
I believe vultures make the most attentive pets - or so I think I may have
been told.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah McWilliams [SMTP:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA]
Sent: 12 July 1999 13:38
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Re: carrying cat
I was very ill for about 2 years. During this time, I was close
to bed-ridden and was fortunate to have the almost constant company
of my two cats in bed with me. (I adopted these cats as strays, as
adults). Now that I am well, my male cat (abused by the former
owner) will not let me sleep beyond 6:00 a.m. or 7:00 a.m. If I am
not up, he yowls with this plaintive cry and appears agitated or
restless. Once I am up, he continues his day by bird watching,
playing, etc (anything, it seems, but interact with me).
I have wondered if this is a result of my illness and, perhaps,
anxiety on his part if I do not get up.
I breed rats and the "mom-starts-to-wean" ones sometimes "wander".
My male cat brings them to me (2:00 a.m., 7:00 p.m., whenever he
finds them) without vocalization (his vocalization, that is - the
rodent is usually quite noisy).
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 12-JUL-1999 09:38:24.20
To: IN%"bergerulr@bluewin.ch" "Berger Ulrich"
CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: phobias in domestic/non-domestic animals
A few remarks in a nutshell.
The problem for people who are getting in touch with this field is
that not all involved have a broad training in behavioural sciences
which results in a lack of uniform terminology.
Further remarks are inserted.
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:38:07 -0700
> From: Berger Ulrich
> Subject: phobias in domestic/non-domestic animals
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Dear all,
> I am a Swiss vet.practitioner interested and partly working in clinical
> ethology.
> I would like to present you the following problem: All of you probably
> know dogs (cats?) presenting phobic reactions produced by thunderstorm,
> shooting, firework etc.
> Definition in Karen Overalls book: < ..profound and quickly developed
> fear reactions that do not extinguish with gradual exposure to the
> object or with exposure...involve sudden, all-or-nothing, profound,
> abnormal responses that result in very fearful behaviors (catatonia,
> panic)..>
> Definition in P. Pageats book: (transl. from french) < Phobia is a state
> of fear which is systematically produced by a stimulus, and which does
> not decrease in frequency or intensity even when the animal experiences
> the innocuity of the stimulus..> So far in my opinion the 2 definitions
> are corresponding.
> Pageat goes on and differentiates between:
> - ontogenic phobia, which in his system of theory corresponds to "stade
> 1 du syndrome de privation" (deprivation syndrome, stage 1); Definition
> of "stade de privation": Emotional and mood (french: thymiques)
> disturbances, developing in 3 steps (phobia-chron. anxiety-depression),
> caused by insufficient sensorial stimuli from the puppies living
> environment during the development of the brain/CNS in the first 3
> months of age.
> - post-traumatic phobia developing after one single contact with a
> stimulus at any age of life.
Both are right to speak about "fear" as phobia is related to a given
stimulus, as opposed to "anxiety" which not specific. Pageat's
differential diagnosis is based on the following:
- During the ontogeny many "set-points" or norms are determined which
determine homeostasy at many levels for the whole life (cf e.g. the
work of Cabanac about the relativity of norms and pleasure, i.e. the
return to the norm). Puppies should get used to a variation of
stimuli and intensities. The problem is to what extent one can speak
about a specific fear (phobia) which develops for a particular
stimulus (or group of associated stimuli) in animals which missed
enough sensory stimulation. Such animals will often be "anxious" in
many situations. A possible path was opened by Timmermans et al. some
years ago who have described the development of phobia in Java
monkeys for a particular object provided the object was presented in
the absence of the mother. If this is confirmed, the role of the
mother as safe moving point of reference during exploration finds an
additional support. According to these authors, that phobia was
resistant to positive social modeling from peers.
This should be investigated in dogs. One should still put question
marks and resist the temptation of setting up a ready-made type of
DSM for animals (NB: cf Kirk & Kutchins for a critical appraisal of
it in humans) which is very appealing to beginning vets. (cf = the
"medicalization" of behaviour in psychoanalysis).
-post-traumatic phobia: read something about conditioning of
emotional responses and Eysenck's "incubation of anxiety".
-To what extent a phobia can be ontogenetically pre-programmed is
still a debate.
> I see a lot of thunderstorm/firework/shooting noise etc. phobias in dogs
> and in my opinion Pageats theory is quite evident. This theory would
> mean that "ontogenic phobia", developing since puppyhood would be a
> problem of domestic species only.
Not necessarily. Wild and domestic animals have both an ontogeny.
> My questions: Did anybody of you work on this/make observations (perhaps
> only anecdotical) about such "ontogenic phobias" in other especially in
> not domesticated species?
> What about this question in human beings? Where could I as a simple vet.
> practitioner get some actual knowledge about this?
> Thank you in advance Ulrich
>
> Dr. Ulrich Berger
> Thunstr. 43
> CH-3510 Konolfingen
> Switzerland
> tel: +41 31 791 27 27
> fax: +41 31 791 39 04
> email: bergerulr@bluewin.ch
>
>
Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg
Faculty of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology
Heidestraat 19
B-9820 Merelbeke
tel: +32-(0)9-2647804
fax: +32-(0)9-2647849
From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 12-JUL-1999 09:53:02.35
To: IN%"bergerulr@bluewin.ch" "Berger Ulrich"
CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj: RE: phobias - correction
OOps. I meant "phylogenetically pre-programmed"
Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg
Faculty of Veterinary Medicine
Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology
Heidestraat 19
B-9820 Merelbeke
tel: +32-(0)9-2647804
fax: +32-(0)9-2647849
From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 12-JUL-1999 13:55:41.59
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying, notice me cats
Hi all!
I don't intend to sound anthropocentric, anthropomorphic or power
hungry: however, I believe my cats attend to me and direct behaviours
towards me because our little apartment (9th floor) and me in it are
their universe.
Some of their behaviours will be adaptive to that environment.
For example, attending to the creature who provides food appears to be
logical.
(I don't have an answer for why my cat brings me AWOL rodents -
intact).
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" "Chris Rutt" 12-JUL-1999 12:51:56.05
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "List Applied Ethology"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
This is mostly anecdotal, but may be pertinent
>There seems to be a reflex to "break" a habit or "eradicate" a
behaviour
>rather that to seek an explanation or provide alternatives. I
have
>no doubt that people still "brake" the nocturnal hamster's wheel
>in pursuit of their own sleep ration.
Couldn't agree more with that comment.
>The notion that cats bring prey home for their owners is
universal
>and, I suspect, wholly anthropomorphic.
With the inclusion of "for their owners" I agree (as I often do)
with Robin. However, that outdoor cats do bring prey back to the
house is I fear undeniable. Here at any rate! I would like a £
for every dead mouse or vole I have found lying beside my bed in
the morning, Sometimes in what appear to be neat rows.
>Also, are these 100% indoor cats we are talking about?
>My cats are given free access to the garden and would not dream
of bothering
>me at night; they have much better things to do.
Lucky man! I have had outdoor cats who knew exactly how to wake
me in the middle of the night for attention. If a head-but into
my nose didn't wake me (and I got acclimatized to that) a dab on
the lips with the very tips of the claws soon woke me - and I
never did acclimatize to that one. These behaviours were never
associated with "I have prey" however, but always with a "need"
for stroking (??=allogrooming)
>One other observation; my cats (all four) emit a very urgent
sounding cry
>(it often sounds like they have been injured) when they are
carrying prey
>that they have caught; particularly if it is still alive.
>
>If i take the animal away from them (often to dispatch it) the
cat will then
>wander as if searching, making an even louder version of the
same plaintiff
>cry.
>Jon
I have observed exactly this behaviour also, and in many
different cats. I often thought the call bore similarities to
that of a receptive female. Are we perhaps talking about "pay
attention to me" behaviour?
However, the intensification of the calling after deprivation of
prey does not exactly fit that hypothesis. My kids always said
that that part meant "give it me back NOW!" LOL
Chris (UK)
rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk
From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-JUL-1999 14:37:48.17
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying, notice me cats
What I am suggesting is that the cats cache uneaten prey in their
home territory or den. Some cats seem to coexist in the den and
appear to tolerate others. Some cats appear to have a maternal
or sororital association with the den humans. I just doubt that
the cats hurry home with grub for a surrogate family.
A test would be to camp out in the garden and see if the offerings
began to appear on or near the camp bed. :-)
(A necessary control would be a suit that offered a cold surface to the
cat)
Of course every kind of association and relationship can arise between
cats and humans and retrieving someone else's young sounds delightful.
No one has yet explained to me the cat that gathers crab apples every Fall.
He carries them one by one up over the outhouse roof from the rear
garden down into the front garden. When he has a large pile he lies on top
of it with his legs dangling down and growls contentedly.
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah McWilliams [SMTP:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA]
Sent: 12 July 1999 20:54
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: re: carrying, notice me cats
Hi all!
I don't intend to sound anthropocentric, anthropomorphic or power
hungry: however, I believe my cats attend to me and direct behaviours
towards me because our little apartment (9th floor) and me in it are
their universe.
Some of their behaviours will be adaptive to that environment.
For example, attending to the creature who provides food appears to be
logical.
(I don't have an answer for why my cat brings me AWOL rodents -
intact).
DebMcW
dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca
Deborah A. McWilliams
B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc
Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph
Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7
From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 12-JUL-1999 15:25:56.84
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: interesting article
>http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jul/9907dogs.htm
>
>
Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick
BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy)
PO Box 844
Arlee MT 59821-0844
USA
406-726-3342
arl3342@montana.com
From: IN%"sarah-jayne.cordingley@which.net" "Sarah-Jayne Cordingley" 12-JUL-1999 15:30:14.97
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: (no subject)
Hello, fellow subscribers!
I've recently graduated with an Animal Science degree, and I've just
joined this email network because I'm very interested in animal
behaviour which was a small part of my degree. Looking towards my
future, I would like to join a research group or otherwise study or work
in this area, but I understand it's very competitive... Does anyone
have any suggestions on what I can do to get into this field of
research, or any other useful information? Thanks!
Sarah
From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 12-JUL-1999 16:38:04.65
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying, notice me cats
Robin Walker wrote: A test would be to camp out in the garden
>and see if the offerings
>began to appear on or near the camp bed. :-)
>
I see the wildlife rehabbers and the Audubon folk have new reason to wring
their hands ---
Not only are the songbird numbers being eaten by uncontrolled pesticides
and a world of a happy-hunting-kitty-in-every-yard think
--- but YIPEE! --
Now the ethologists are in on the fun --
-- A test to see how the wild things are laid out after they are taken!!
Oh dear...Is this worth an aspirin or just a pained guffaw ??
-Donna Reynolds :-O
From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 12-JUL-1999 17:39:03.64
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: Thanks
Thank you very much to everyone who has replied to me
about Thioridazine.
The reason for the request was that I have no practical
experience of using this drug, although I am aware of it
and of its stated uses. What I wanted to know was if
anyone out there had direct experience of its use.
As I said in my Email this is not a client of mine and I
have already advised the vet concerned re behavioural
modification. However the request from the vet for
information about this drug came because the client who is
a psychiatric nurse was putting pressure on the vet to
prescribe the medication which the client felt was
appropriate. The vet phoned me for advice and I told her I
would not make the prescription under those circumstances
and would advise the client to seek a behavioural
referral. This is what the vet wants to do but there is a
serious lack of owner compliance!Interestingly in amongst
the replies I have received no-one has practical
experience of using this drug in dogs and I think that
answers my query very well!! I will pass on all the
information - many thanks to you all.
From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 12-JUL-1999 21:21:32.44
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying, notice me cats
Robin Walker wrote: A test would be to camp out in the garden
>and see if the offerings
>began to appear on or near the camp bed. :-)
>
I see the wildlife rehabbers and the Audubon folk have new reason to wring
their hands ---
Not only are the songbird numbers being eaten by uncontrolled pesticides
and a world of a happy-hunting-kitty-in-every-yard think
--- but YIPEE! --
Now the ethologists are in on the fun --
-- A test to see how the wild things are laid out after they are taken!!
Oh dear...Is this worth an aspirin or just a pained guffaw ??
-Donna Reynolds :-O
From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 12-JUL-1999 22:22:09.73
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology"
CC:
Subj: RE: carrying cat
What Robin says sounds reasonable.
The homes of many of my clients are devoid of places for cats to hide, and
they might well have problems with finding a suitable place to stach their
prey.
My comment about the cats bringing me prey wasn't meant to be
anthropomorphic, but I think it was anthropocentric!
I am sure that the reason why my cats 'bring me their prey' is simply that I
spend my time in parts of the house where they often also prefer to be
(cooler, quieter, etc).
As a human being I probably attach greater importance to my own presence or
absence than the cats do!
I favour finding things for the cats to do, and modifying the environment as
Robin suggests; to provide ways of enabling the cats to complete sequences
of behaviour that may be a nuisance.
However, reinforcement should be considered as a manitainer if the cats are
deliberately going to disturb the owner.
jon
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 13-JUL-1999 06:56:01.79
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting"
CC:
Subj: Farrowing without crates
The "Freedom Foods" pork quality assurance scheme in the U.K. has just
announced that it is to ban the use of farrowing crates on its 1,000 member
pig farms. The ban is not immediate, there will be a "phasing-in" period.
There has been (not surprisingly) a very critical reaction from the swine
industry. Critics claim that an appropriate alternative is not yet
available - more research is needed.
The "Freedom Foods" scheme is run by Britain's foremost animal charity, the
Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA). Martin
Potter, Head of the RSPCA Farm Animals Dept. tells me that he is convinced
that farrowing without crates is feasible without high neonatal losses,
provided that appropriate skilled management is available.
What is the view of subscribers to this list?
One of the crateless farrowing systems exciting particular interest at
present is the Danish-developed system using "mushrooms" to protect baby
pigs from overlying. We have put details and a photo of this system on our
web-site at:
http://www.pighealth.com/News99\FARROW.HTM
Mike Meredith
From: IN%"pross2@hotmail.com" "Pablo Ross" 13-JUL-1999 10:13:02.97
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: cattle ethology
Hello everybody:
My name is Pablo Ross, I am from Argentina and studing veterinary in La
Plata(Arg). I am in the 5th year of my course of studies and like very much
cattle ethology. If yoou have yyany information abut that please send it to
me.
PABLO ROSS
CATEDRA DE ZOOTECNIA GENERAL
FAC. DE VETERINARIA, UNLP.
LA PLATA 1900
ARGENTINA
pross2@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 13-JUL-1999 14:55:02.48
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting"
CC:
Subj: RE: Farrowing without crates
Dr. Jeremy Marchant has asked me to submit this posting on his behalf. He
is currently working away from his office in the U.K. (in British Columbia)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
"I am somewhat concerned that the UK pig industry is going to spend 400,000
pounds to determine whether any of six alternative farrowing systems can be
commercially successful. We are still some way to developing a system that
is even successful with the typical UK pig, under experimental conditions.
We are still trying to gain a full understanding of the farrowing situation
and until we do, I fear that designing a commercially-successful alternative
to the crate will remain perpetually just over the horizon. A study of this
nature, though laudable in its goals, is too much too soon and will set this
ultimate goal back a number of years. A cynic might suggest that elements of
the industrial sponsors of this project may well want that sort of result.
The only "alternative" that could potentially work on-farm is the temporary
crate idea, where the sow is confined for around 5-7 days just before and
after farrowing. However, the MAFF press release states "the aim is to
discover whether these systems provide sows with more freedom to move around
during farrowing while safeguarding the welfare of their piglets". Temporary
crates do not meet this specific criterion.
Whatever systems are going to be investigated, the major factor influencing
the success or otherwise of a farrowing system is the person caring for the
animals. This factor is an extremely difficult one to balance
experimentally. Also the UK has an extreme shortage of skilled stockpersons,
capable of making an alternative system work at present.
As for the Danish "mushroom" system, when I saw it at the UK Pig and Poultry
Fair a couple of months ago, they were showing a video of it in use with a
sow taking straw from a rack clipped on the side. When I asked the
'salesperson' about this, he said it was only for demonstration purposes and
that in reality, it was not used as the straw clogged up the fully-slatted
floor!
All this added up to a system that seemed to be addressing the welfare
perceptions of humans rather than the welfare requirements of the sow. It
was in fact a barren environment, allowing the sow space but nothing in the
way of nesting material or a "natural" environment. I would like to see some
hard data on this system, but have had no response from the manufacturers
IKADAN in Denmark."
Jeremy Marchant (temporary email address = jnm13@hotmail.com)
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 14-JUL-1999 05:36:32.62
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting"
CC:
Subj: Farrowing sows without crates - URL error
Re: photo and details of crateless swine farrowing pen from Denmark
Many apologies! - I put a backslash instead of a forward slash in the URL of
this web page.
Correct reference is:
www.pighealth.com/News99/FARROW.HTM
Please note also that use must use uppercase (capital letters) for the final
part of the address.
Mike
From: IN%"dorothy.mckeegan@bbsrc.ac.uk" "dorothy.mckeegan" 14-JUL-1999 06:20:41.32
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: European attitudes to farm animal welfare
Dear List,
I am having trouble finding references/info concerning cultural
differences across Europe in attitudes towards farm animal welfare
(particularly differences between northern and southern European
countries). I am also seeking information about factors affecting an
individual's attitide to farm animal welfare (e.g. age, sex, job).
Does anyone know of any relevant studies?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks very much
Dorothy McKeegan
email: dorothy.mckeegan@bbsrc.ac.uk
Roslin Institute (Edinburgh)
Roslin
Midlothian
EH25 9PS
+44(0)131 527 4212
From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 14-JUL-1999 10:02:45.43
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting", IN%"dorothy.mckeegan@bbsrc.ac.uk" "dorothy.mckeegan"
CC:
Subj: RE: People's attitudes to farm animal welfare
>I am also seeking information about factors affecting an
>individual's attitide to farm animal welfare (e.g. age, sex, job).=20
>Does anyone know of any relevant studies?
Dear Dorothy,
I would recommend you read "Human-Livestock Interactions" by Hemsworth & =
Coleman
details can be found at: =
http://www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BKDETAIL/HEMSWORT.HTM
Michael Meredith
From: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 14-JUL-1999 14:28:03.32
To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"twidowski@APS.UoGuelph.CA"
CC:
Subj: job announcement
Dr. Tina Widowski has asked me to post the following job
announcement. Please note that the job is available only to those
eligible to work in Canada. Correspondence should be directed to
Dr. Widowski.
Cheers,
Suzanne Millman
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "TINA WIDOWSKI"
Organization: Animal & Poultry Science
To: smillman
Date sent: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:14:49 EDT
Subject:
Hi Suzanne,
Thanks for sending this on for me, Tina
Ontario Agricultural College
Department of Animal and Poultry Science
RESEARCH ASSISTANT
(Temporary Full-Time position from July 1999 to June 2001)
This position requires an independent, resourceful individual to
participate in research focusing on the performance of neonatal
behaviour patterns and their relationship to growth and physiology of
piglets. Duties will include collection of behavioural data, collection =
of
blood and tissue samples, immunoassays and some histological
procedures.
Requirements of the position include: B.Sc. (Master=92s degree preferred)
with extensive hands-on experience. Experience in the care and handling
of piglets, behaviour data collection, video technology and software is
required. Knowledge of immunoassay and/or histological techniques is
an asset. The successful candidate must be competent in basic
computer, statistics and writing skills.
Normal Hiring Range: $15.02 - $16.79 per hour.
In accordance with Canadian Immigration requirements, this
advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent residents
of Canada. This appointment is subject to final budgetary approval.
We thanks all applicants for their interest but wish to advise that only
those selected for an interview will be contacted.
Please forward curriculum vitae and a list of three references no later th=
an
Wednesday, July 21, 1999 to:
Tina Widowski
Assistant Professor
Department of Animal and Poultry Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, OntarioN1G 2W1
Tel: (519) 824-4120 Ext. 2408
Fax (519) 836-9873
{ GOTOBUTTON BM_1_ twidowski@aps.uoguelph.ca}
Suzanne Millman
Dept. of Animal & Poultry Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, Ontario, N1G 2W1
Canada.
EMAIL: smillman@aps.uoguelph.ca
PHONE: (519) 824-4120 X6226
FAX: (519)836-9873