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If you happen to be at a lumber yard, check the edge of its top grade of plywood to count the number of thin layers of equal width that are laid across each other. You won't find anything resembling a substantial solid core sandwiched between two thin skins.

No, of course not, because LAMINATED WOOD is not MULTI-LAYER WOOD but solid wood with a thin laminate. Please read again. Hailun is stating they are NOT using multi-layer wood.

Obviously, Hailun gives a rat's arse. They've gone to great lengths to bury the meaning of laminate under a "meniscus coating". One wonders what percentage of the English-speaking population would gues that the coating is actually a thin wooden panel.

Whether you think they all sound great or not, they do sound different. and with no one in the industry other than Pearl's Kayserberg wiling to take a chance on putting a laminate into something that is not entry-level, it's not surprising that consumers still give a rat's arse too.

One question: If the Laminate boards with that "Meniscus spruce" coating sound different to ones with solid spruce boards, at least you could explain HOW exactly they sound different, as opposed to just saying "they sound different". Otherwise it is a pointless statement to say that, as they could very well sound the same depending on the obvious variables.

I don't think it's pointless, but maybe it's futile because you can't isolate the soundboard difference in Hailun models as the sole characteristic that differentiates them. They are of course of different lengths with different scale designs, and as their retailaers will occasionally point out -- different guest designers.

Even if we largely eliminate the length difference by comparing the 180 to the 178, we're still stuck with the fact that each one has a different plate design (among other variables). So, I'll grant you that it's a bit futile to nail anything down.

My own subjective impressions are that the 161 and the 178 have the same musical character and that while it's pleasant, it's not a distinctive or memorable character. I've always felt (from 2007 actually) that those two were good pianos for the asking price through, meniscus or no meniscus. My impression of the 218 is that it is distinctive, memorable, and just a very fine piano period.

I wasn't throwing a bucket of cold water at Hailun, although I do find their dodge of the term laminate particularly amusing and creative. My point was that only a maker who embraces laminate technology in a way that does not obscure it and takes the risk of putting it to use in some of its more expensive models can do much to advance the cause of laminate boards among people who have been trained by industry marketing for decades to worship the solid spruce board.

I don't think it's pointless, but maybe it's futile because you can't isolate the soundboard difference in Hailun models as the sole characteristic that differentiates them. They are of course of different lengths with different scale designs, and as their retailaers will occasionally point out -- different guest designers.

Even if we largely eliminate the length difference by comparing the 180 to the 178, we're still stuck with the fact that each one has a different plate design (among other variables). So, I'll grant you that it's a bit futile to nail anything down.

My own subjective impressions are that the 161 and the 178 have the same musical character and that while it's pleasant, it's not a distinctive or memorable character. I've always felt (from 2007 actually) that those two were good pianos for the asking price through, meniscus or no meniscus. My impression of the 218 is that it is distinctive, memorable, and just a very fine piano period.

I wasn't throwing a bucket of cold water at Hailun, although I do find their dodge of the term laminate particularly amusing and creative. My point was that only a maker who embraces laminate technology in a way that does not obscure it and takes the risk of putting it to use in some of its more expensive models can do much to advance the cause of laminate boards among people who have been trained by industry marketing for decades to worship the solid spruce board.

That is a great post. In my opinion it is basically entirely accurate. My sincere thanks, Turandot.

...My point was that only a maker who embraces laminate technology in a way that does not obscure it and takes the risk of putting it to use in some of its more expensive models can do much to advance the cause of laminate boards among people who have been trained by industry marketing for decades to worship the solid spruce board.

Agreed, except for the finger pointing at industry marketing. I think laminate's (perhaps undeserved) bad rap does not stem from industry propaganda, but rather from the tens of thousands of 1960 and 70s vintage consoles still out there with "Lifetime Garantee" soundboards made of a medium quality door skin, which sound like crap. That proof is in the pudding.

It is one of the problems of long-lived consumer goods such as pianos. Even if quality is raised up to a high level, those 20, 30, 40 year old mistakes are still out there, hindering a company's (or product's) rise of reputation. Perfect analogous example: plastic (oops, did I say that? I meant composite) action parts.

If this is indeed true then it is incorrect - they clearly not stating fact.

Well, that's how I read Ginster6's post.Ginster6, is the quoted text Hailun's or yours? Particularly, the last sentence emphasized by me

Originally Posted By: Ginster6

I finally got call back.. from Hailun, China. did not talk the Mr. Chen. but another person in there.

Hailun 178 and under..solid spruce core, veneer top and bottom.

hailun 198 and over..solid spruce all the way.

reason for this. 178 and under usually purchase for home. so they veneer it so it was be used all over the world and soundboard will not crack or deform, from weather issues. (longer lasting). note... it is not multi-layer wood compress together (laminated) .

This type of laminated soundboard has been around a long time. Samick has been doing this type of board on all of their low end pianos since the mid 1980s. I have sold many samicks with the thin layer with solid layer in the middle laminated boards. They tried to call it a moisture barrier or some other type of marketing lingo. This is all Hailun is doing as well. The better and more expensive Kohler and Campbell pianos used the same scale but gave you a solid spruce soundboard. Your right that there is nothing wrong with this, but it is done not to improve upon the product, but to create a more profitable piano for the manufacturer. Guitar players know this as well, A solid spruce top of a guitar is better than a laminate. It just translates the sound better. If Hailun feels they want to enter at a lower price point and cut costs why not in this economy.

The discussion is in my mind not about the alleged superiority of certain components but the HONESTY and transparency about a manufacturer's own statements.

If you can't believe what a maker says, who can you then?

Norbert

Norbert,

If you feel a meniscus coating accurately describes Hailun's use of thin wood panels to sandwich the core, then I would concede that it's better than nothing. I suppose it's ancient history now, but scroll back to when you were selling 178's branded as Steigerman Premium, the Steigerman webiste was pimping solid boards -- no meniscus, no skin, no thin top or bottom panel. So I guess from that perspective, we can all celebrate Hailun's new-found transparency , while also conceding that their laminate board pianos cannot be faulted in the way that the ones cited by Jurgen could be faulted..

Jurgen,

I hadn't thought about it from your angle, but you are right. The shortcomings of the laminates of that generation are part of the reluctance to advance the cause today.