Luk 13:2 Jesus answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? Luk 13:3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? Luk 13:5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."

Just to clarify Lee, the reason for me citing that bible verse is because Jesus indicates that those things that happened were not because of them being considered worse sinners than others. In other words, I agree with Jesus that Pat Robertson is incorrect in saying that Haiti, or any other place where a natural disaster takes place, is the result of God judging sin.

natcat86

I really dont know Jab. I reconcile aids, murder, war all as man's actions not God's, but earthquakes are called an act of God. Why are children dying slowly and painfully under the rubble in Haiti and there were Nazi war criminals who died old and in their sleep

God is no respector of persons, if He was actively causing earthquakes and the results of them but letting other non-believers live comfortable happy lives then He IS a repector of persons.

If God IS a respector of persons then He chooses prosperity for some and punishment for others.

In a way I want to think that God is not interventionist, because that removes blame from Him when really bad things happen.

I agree we need to be compassionate and help. So by "life happens", do you think it's random, accidental, judgment, cleansing? Or more so that we don't know, that's God's business [His thoughts/His ways] and we're supposed to just worry about "doing our part" - caring, helping, be salt and light? And trust Him to know what's best?

Maybe it's one of those things (that affects many areas of all our lives) that we won't fully understand "til the other side" and we are to remain obedient, faithful, trusting, loving, hoping all things, knowing that God hasn't lost control....we just may not fully understand the process (?), but that He will and is in the process of fixing it all, turning it ALL into good...

« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 11:11:04 PM by jabcat »

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Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2

Paul Hazelwood

I agree we need to be compassionate and help. So by "life happens", do you think it's random/accidental, punishment and/or cleansing? Or we don't know, that's God's business, and we're supposed to just worry about "doing our part" - caring, helping, be salt and light?

I don't believe anyone can truly know, those like Rat Pobertson who believes they know, actually don't.

While he is telling the hatians (I told ya so you pagan scum) The real world is helping the only way it can.

None of that is perfect and we will all hear the end times nut jobs come out, the government critics, blah blah blah, yet the ones who "did something about it" sent aid and pulled dead bodies out of rubble and risked their own lives looking for survivors.

So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?

I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...

Chris

So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?

I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...

I was going to bring up New Orleans, too. As he most certainly had the same thing to say in 2005 after Katrina. Too bad the French Quarter didn't flood.

He said the same thing about The World Trade Centers.

It seems as if Pat Robertson blames EVERY "evil act" whether "natural disaster" or "acts of men" ON GOD, but claims that God is "doing it" ~TO~ those who "are" evil.

So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?

I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...

I was going to bring up New Orleans, too. As he most certainly had the same thing to say in 2005 after Katrina. Too bad the French Quarter didn't flood.

He said the same thing about The World Trade Centers.

It seems as if Pat Robertson blames EVERY "evil act" whether "natural disaster" or "acts of men" ON GOD, but claims that God is "doing it" ~TO~ those who "are" evil.

If something bad were to happen to Pat Robertson, I wonder if he would say it was God punishing him for something he had done wrong?

martincisneros

Where do you think "man plans his ways but God directs His steps" enters in with things like this?

That's exactly what I'm talking about. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. There's zero conflict or contest or contradiction between man planning his ways, or righteously planning according to His ways, and God giving the increase, or directing the steps of how quickly it produces whether instantaneous miracle or abiding by the laws of gradual spiritual growth talked about in Mark 4 and related passages.

He gives the increase ALWAYS, but did we sow what He said to sow, when He said to sow it, where He said to sow it, and did we listen to the Spirit of His Written Word for particulars? Or the moment He ministers the increase of the fruits (1Corinthians 3:5-10, 2Corinthians 9:10), is this liable to end in death because it wasn't His chosen what, where, and when that the Written Word and the Spirit of God were indicating?

There is no presupposition in the Scriptures of Him ever doing anything but blessing, but when He gives the increase, is it going to be the thousandfold you wanted, according to Deuteronomy 1:11, or the very thing coming up to maturity that you didn't want harvested? All He's gotta do is give the increase and if we didn't have our ground laid out correctly when the time of the latter rain came, it's not going to be what we wanted coming up.

It's possible to miss the time of harvest and let it rot in the field, when you're dealing with natural, corruptible seed, but thankfully a ready harvest in the Kingdom is incorruptible and it's right where it was left and the sickle can still be put into it with forgiveness, thanksgiving, praise, and obedience when He gives direction. God's devised the steps that each seed will go through to produce.

Man's job is to plant the seed (Mark 11:23, John 16:23, Romans 10:17), water it (Colossians 2:6-7), keep the weeds out of it (Mark 11:25-26), keep it in the light of the sun (2Corinthians 4:13, Colossians 3:16, 1John 2:5), and keep the pests out of it (2Corinthians 10:3-6, Ephesians 6:10-20, 1Peter 5:6-7), as Lord Jesus said in Mark 4, Luke 8, etc. and God directs the steps, i.e. "refuses to be mocked" in Galatians 6 and from the Written Word you reap life eonian (Isaiah 61:10-11) or from the carnal nature you reap corruption (Romans 8:6, Ephesians 2:12).

Doesn't change the fact that the Word will ultimately still give Him HIS harvest with how absolutely everything ends in world history with billions of Christ Jesuses that are deathless, which is where a lot of people misunderstand having a faith relationship with Christ Jesus, their High Priest, and presume that if we botch our own harvests that He'll never ultimately have His, which is nonsense, and where the divine Sovereignty really fits in, in the Scriptures rather than this idea I've seen kicked around that man doesn't harvest what he sows that I don't even respond to these days 'cause Galatians 6 says it's nothing but mockery to assert such a thing and I'm not God's defender, He's mine.

God's sowing and reaping as well, and He's getting what He planted Jesus for!! But this life can just get worse and worse and worse if His Word isn't in our heart and mouth 'til it displaces all of the previous junk.

The idea that God being no respector of persons means everybody gets treated the same regardless of their deeds fails to apprehend the nature of God. If he treated the wicked the same as the righteous then He would be unjust, and, as Martin pointed out, He would be violating His own principle of sowing and reaping. If you do wickedly He'll treat you the same as others that do wickedly. If you do well, He'll bless you as He does all who do His will. He, "renders to everyman according to their deeds." That is the kind of equanamity with which He treats people. Whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out.

Several times in Isaiah He says, "I am IEUE and there is none else." Nothing else exists! For the more literal, "Christ: the all in all," The Jerusalem Bible says, "There is only Christ and that is all there is." (Co 3:11) Not a quark, not even a tauon exists where it does but, ""out from Him, through Him, and into Him is the all." (Rm 11:36)

He also made the various components of each human. Scripture says, "It is God that works in you both to will and do of His good pleasure." We have wills to exercise within the parameters of His design.

Things look very different from the innermost, from the uttermost, from the lowest, from, "...up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending..." (Ep 1:21, CLT) or, viewed from the consumation, or end.

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

martincisneros

Things look very different from the innermost, from the uttermost, from the lowest, from, "...up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending..." (Ep 1:21, CLT) or, viewed from the consumation, or end.

That's where all of the differences are at. I've never seen a hyper Sovereignty perspective that wasn't a return to the spirit of bondage to fear from Galatians 4. And I've never seen anyone whose mind was renewed to their seating with Christ at God's right hand as a present day reality in Romans 5:17 and Ephesians 2 that denied the power of choice to the individual. Either the 7 places Christ shed His Blood are our redemption, including the crown of thorns and bleeding from the pores of His skin bought back our souls or we still look for another and have an incomplete work. Either His sufferings in Gethsemane undid our having been given over to futility in the Garden, or He died in vain.