Hey guys I wondered if you could recommend any particular books , posts or videos on the stages of realisation. I would love some more info, in particular on the witness stage. Could you share any insights or realisations you had to help you pass through this stage or is a very personal thing that you just allow to ripen?

I'd say it's a personal thing, one where it's recognized that the only real authority on what is true lies with yourself and the best teachings point out what is already observable in yourself. Think about that transfer to authority to a teacher or bit or writing; say I think this teacher knows and I don't. This implies that I am something that relies on an external authority to provide some external dependency which I can't see for myself and places adherence on the concept of a future me that will get it and be something other than what I think I am right now. There is no value to external authority except to examine it for myself. The reason this is so is because the original issue is the validation of incorrect assumption and limitation stemming from over-generalized thoughts taken to be true. But this does not change what you already are, it's just an experience in what you already are. So the best teaching says, just look at what you already are.

I'm sure there are pages and pages on the topic of the witness and stages of realization but I'd like to offer what I think is one of the most distilled descriptions on stages of realization in this quote my Ramana.

The world is illusory; Brahman alone is real; Brahman is the world. – Ramana Maharshi

By way of personal experience, seeing the world as illusory is part of untangling habitual identification with thought. One key is to recognize that thoughts and all the content as well as the experiential effects of thought simply come and go, that is they temporally appear to an underlying field of awareness which remains upon their coming and going. Abiding as that awareness offers the realization that nothing held in thought offers any truth about what you are. Abiding as that awareness offers the perspective that the absolute unknowable source of awareness alone is real. Mind surrendered to seeing as awareness free from the stories of mind offers the realization that the the absolute is not separate from the world perceived, it is indeed all the same. One with no other to compare to. Beyond or preceding real vs illusory perceiver and perceived.

Regarding the witness, one might ask what is it that observes each of these perspectives? That which observes, does this change with each perspective? If it did how would any perspective appear different from another?

That which observes, is that itself observable? (Mooji). Is that which knows itself knowable? Sure an explanation of something like 'it's a biological reaction' may appear but what happens to this thought when attention is placed upon what is aware of all or any thoughts that simply come and go? What happens when the limits of what can be known for certain are explored exhaustively.

The workings of mind do not offer any anwsers of value. It is allowing the investigation into the nature of the questioner that reveals more. For example asking if you can simply become unaware. Can you turn off witnessing? Can you be un-here? Can you jump to the past or future in actuality or are these always imagined here and now? Can you be other than here and now?

I recommend a new book, "In Touch" by John Prendergast. He addresses the witness stage, and a number of other stages. Plus this book is a wonderful survey of many experiences with psychotherapy clients and his own discoveries. A splendid summary of years of teaching and counseling.

rg -

Well said - basically no arguments. The problem with believing the world and thoughts are illusory is that this belief is only valid and useful and meaningful if you have had that experience (the illusory world) and not gone completely insane. There are a number of people in mental institutions who would agree with you (and Ramana) that the world is illusory. Even for those who are sane and seeking, the effort to find the "platform of consciousness" from which it is clear that the world is illusory is particularly challenging. The conventional life is led in a very "real" world with credit reports and bosses and families who have no interest in the possibility that they are not "real." Moreover, the identity of the typical seeker is closely coupled to "the real world," i.e. people feel they are in and of this very "real" world. So if the "world is illusory" then they are "illusory." Yes, self-inquiry might eventually validate that their "self-image" is in fact no more than that...a story...not real. But it is a tough grind, in general. Of course, for some, like ET, it took ten seconds.

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin HeideggerThere is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

I'm reading 'In Touch' at your earlier recommendation. I find it deeply absorbing, wise, and mature. It hit just the right note for where I am right now.....rather burnt out on the usual spiritual stuff and hungering for the next step.

Thanks for the feedback guys I've also just started reading In touch on your recommendation Andy, it's been pretty incredible so far, very intelligently, clearly and genuinely written. John seems likes a very knowledgable and trustworthy dude. Like oncelor said it's very absorbing

Well said - basically no arguments. The problem with believing the world and thoughts are illusory is that this belief is only valid and useful and meaningful if you have had that experience (the illusory world) and not gone completely insane. There are a number of people in mental institutions who would agree with you (and Ramana) that the world is illusory.

Hi Andy,

Happy to see you and the other mods going strong here for years.

The 'In Touch' description looks good. "...inner guidance", "Your body has a natural sense of truth." These are good messages.

I don't feel I am saying the the world is illusory. As well I do not read Ramana as saying this either. Rather I am saying one's nature is beyond or preceding real vs illusory, beyond or preceding perceiver vs perceived. If Ramana were making a point that the world is illusory with the intention to inspire agreement from those who don't see it that way or to foster belief in the listener don't you think he would have stopped at "The world is illusory" and say that's a fact? That's not the case though, he says in the same statement that Brahman is the world. Sameness, perception only, pointer only.

I don't feel I am saying the the world is illusory. As well I do not read Ramana as saying this either. Rather I am saying one's nature is beyond or preceding real vs illusory, beyond or preceding perceiver vs perceived. If Ramana were making a point that the world is illusory with the intention to inspire agreement from those who don't see it that way or to foster belief in the listener don't you think he would have stopped at "The world is illusory" and say that's a fact? That's not the case though, he says in the same statement that Brahman is the world. Sameness, perception only, pointer only.

Our tools of perception are limited until they aren't. My comment was just a warning (not to you, by the way). I love his circular tautology and the inherent paradox. Kind of like "what you are looking for is what is looking." And, yes, it's a pointer and also an instruction: "Don't expect your mind to discover the truth. Minds believe the world is real. But (as you say) there is a Source that precedes and includes worlds and minds. And it is not separate from whatever identity you need."

Andy

A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin HeideggerThere is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce