Makes sense though, until he lets go of his arrogance, he can't find peace in the afterlife._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:19 am

Message

DancelittleewokEUC Staff

Joined: 15 Sep 2010Posts: 1171Location: Kansas

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

My favorite character, Jacen Solo, is dead. A few years later, I'm over it. But no. Del Rey had other plans. Jacen Solo shows up again in Apocalypse. Denning you tease!

Me on page 13:

Dancelittleewok wrote:

With the dual threat of Abeloth and the Lost Tribe of the Sith, Jacen's five year journey has now become peripheral instead the central focus like it was in the first books. We already know why he fell in LOTF and his fate in Abyss, but there's some loose threads. What's missing is: the Dark Man's identity, Abeloth inevitably finding out about the Jedi Princess' identity, and Allana's true identity. I think Apocalypse will be less Jacen, more Jacen's legacy.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

On a serious note, how do you think Jacen's legacy was handled in Apocalypse?

_________________Observation: Life would be cooler if everyone spoke like HK-47.

Well, I just finally reached the end of the Abeloth battle in Apocalypse and suddenly one sentence makes all of LOTF and FOTJ make complete sense. I never really understood why Jacen fell like he did until we finally got the full explaination of his vision.

It one of the only times, in fact possibly THE only time, when I've actually found myself sitting back and staring at a page thinking "wow."

And it makes perfect sense for motivation. He allowed himself to be consumed by the dark side in order to prevent his daughter from becoming so. Makes you wonder how truely "dark" he was.

[/spoiler]

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:32 pm

Message

Dog-Poop_WalkerMaster

Joined: 28 Jan 2012Posts: 1080Location: Of Puppets

Meh. You say vision, I say retcon.

Jacen as Cadeus can be viewed as a result of his actions and thinking in between NJO and Dark Nest, or it can be viewed with the explanation given in FOTJ.

I prefer the grey morality- one man's hero is another man's terrorist, what does it really mean to serve the greater good?- of the NJO/DN Jacen, instead of the simplistic moralizing of "he actually was serving the greater good and was good, he just appeared bad because you didn't know why he was doing what he was doing."

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Message

WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

Darth_Henning wrote:

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

Well, I just finally reached the end of the Abeloth battle in Apocalypse and suddenly one sentence makes all of LOTF and FOTJ make complete sense. I never really understood why Jacen fell like he did until we finally got the full explaination of his vision.

It one of the only times, in fact possibly THE only time, when I've actually found myself sitting back and staring at a page thinking "wow."

And it makes perfect sense for motivation. He allowed himself to be consumed by the dark side in order to prevent his daughter from becoming so. Makes you wonder how truely "dark" he was.

[/spoiler]

This was largely my opinion when I read the scene. Do I think they had that exactly in mind when they decided to have Jacen do dark, no. Do I think it was something that was being tossed around at the time, yes. Creative meetings in things like this include so much brainstorming and just bouncing ideas off of each other that I think it was always one of their possible reasons.

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:22 am

Message

Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 535Location: Canada

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:

Meh. You say vision, I say retcon.

Jacen as Cadeus can be viewed as a result of his actions and thinking in between NJO and Dark Nest, or it can be viewed with the explanation given in FOTJ.

I prefer the grey morality- one man's hero is another man's terrorist, what does it really mean to serve the greater good?- of the NJO/DN Jacen, instead of the simplistic moralizing of "he actually was serving the greater good and was good, he just appeared bad because you didn't know why he was doing what he was doing."

I don't think you can really have one without the other.

I'm not saying that "he ... was good, he just appeared bad...." He was still bad, but it lends a credible reason for him allowing himself to go to the dark side. Its not the same kind of evil as Palpatine or Malak or the TOR Emperor because its not purely self-serving greed or power that he was after, but something else.

What he did was still clearly of the dark side, but more towards the grey mortality that was built up in NJO/DN.

Werehunter wrote:

This was largely my opinion when I read the scene. Do I think they had that exactly in mind when they decided to have Jacen do dark, no. Do I think it was something that was being tossed around at the time, yes. Creative meetings in things like this include so much brainstorming and just bouncing ideas off of each other that I think it was always one of their possible reasons.

I wonder about how long that idea has been around though. I need to check later, but I believe at the end of his duel with Jaina in Invincible he made a comment about Allana and/or his vision. FOTJ was announced Before September 2008, when Invincible came out in May 2008.

That's less than 3 months. That strongly suggests to me that it was in the works before they finished LOTF, so perhaps that detail was in mind the whole time. WHo knows. Doubtful we'll ever get a confirmation.

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:07 am

Message

Dog-Poop_WalkerMaster

Joined: 28 Jan 2012Posts: 1080Location: Of Puppets

In LOTF just prior to turning Sith Jacen has a vision of a huge Galactic war with billions of people dying. It's given ambiguously that maybe Lumiya sent him this vision, not the Force, but nonetheless this is the major impetus that pushes him toward becoming a Sith because he feels like only himself, as Galactic ruler, can stop it. Throughout the series he wrestles with whether he will have to sacrifice Alanna for the good of the Galaxy until he finally kidnaps her himself and holds her hostage against the GA and Tenel Ka Djo to keep them from overthrowing him.

In Invincible they already start retconning it by implying that it was Jacen's destiny to become a Sith and to die to stop the war.

See where I'm going with this? The idea that he was trying to protect Alanna directly is not there until Fate Of The Jedi and is counter to what is shown in LOTF.

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:57 pm

Message

NinerPadawan

Joined: 26 Nov 2011Posts: 58

I just finished read New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I (I'm finally getting around to reading the whole New Jedi Order series), and man is Jacen Solo annoying. I remember liking him in Young Jedi Knights, but so far in DT1 he's an annoying know it all, questioning what it means to be a jedi and being a complete ass about it. Seriously, the rest of the book was enjoyable, but I started dreading the Jacen sections. All he does is think (and say, at times) things like "Luke doesn't know enough to teach jedi" or "Jedi should just become hermits to learn about the force" or "Fighting isn't right" and even more stupid stuff.

I wouldn't care as much if it was just him thinking about what he should do, but he seems to think that what he believes should apply to all jedi. I don't think he'll ruin the NJO books (especially since I'm pretty sure he's not in several of them), but he is annoying. I'd say I wish he died in NJO, but I actually like Allana in FotJ, so I guess I can just be glad he died in LotF. Maybe he'll mellow out as the NJO continues (or maybe other authors won't focus on these parts of his personality) but as of right now he's become one of the most annoying characters I've read about in a SW book.

I recently read Black Fleet Crisis, and a lot of the things you bring up ('All he does is think (and say, at times) things like "Luke doesn't know enough to teach jedi" or "Jedi should just become hermits to learn about the force" or "Fighting isn't right"') was present in that book, too, with Luke wishing to become a hermit, and *name removed as it's too offensive to my memory* bringing up the other two points._________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:39 am

Message

Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 535Location: Canada

Dog-Poop_Walker wrote:

In LOTF just prior to turning Sith Jacen has a vision of a huge Galactic war with billions of people dying. It's given ambiguously that maybe Lumiya sent him this vision, not the Force, but nonetheless this is the major impetus that pushes him toward becoming a Sith because he feels like only himself, as Galactic ruler, can stop it. Throughout the series he wrestles with whether he will have to sacrifice Alanna for the good of the Galaxy until he finally kidnaps her himself and holds her hostage against the GA and Tenel Ka Djo to keep them from overthrowing him.

In Invincible they already start retconning it by implying that it was Jacen's destiny to become a Sith and to die to stop the war.

See where I'm going with this? The idea that he was trying to protect Alanna directly is not there until Fate Of The Jedi and is counter to what is shown in LOTF.

I need to re-read LOTF it seems. I read that and FOTJ as they came out, so my memory is more fractured than it is for any other series which I usually tend to read as a group.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:44 am

Message

CerrineaMaster

Joined: 09 Jun 2009Posts: 1491

I'd reread LOTF, but I don't think I can stand to.

And Jacen was also having the Dark Man on the Throne visions so there's that, which fits in FOTJ._________________Roqoo Depot co-founder.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:59 am

Message

Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 535Location: Canada

Cerrinea wrote:

I'd reread LOTF, but I don't think I can stand to.

And Jacen was also having the Dark Man on the Throne visions so there's that, which fits in FOTJ.

I don't remember off the top of my head if Jacen was having those visions early in the series, but I know for certain that Luke was as early as Betrayal. So its not entirely a ret-con.

Once I finish re-reading Crosscurrent, and read Riptide, that's my next priority to refresh my memory.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:15 pm

Message

NinerPadawan

Joined: 26 Nov 2011Posts: 58

Life Is The Path wrote:

I recently read Black Fleet Crisis, and a lot of the things you bring up ('All he does is think (and say, at times) things like "Luke doesn't know enough to teach jedi" or "Jedi should just become hermits to learn about the force" or "Fighting isn't right"') was present in that book, too, with Luke wishing to become a hermit, and *name removed as it's too offensive to my memory* bringing up the other two points.

Yeah, I remember Luke thinking about that. It was annoying, but in the end he came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good idea, atleast not for him at that moment. From what I remember, he was wanting to become a hermit because of Yoda and Obi Wan becoming hermits. But, that was stupid because Yoda and Obi Wan only became hermits because they really couldn't hide from the empire in inhabited places. They were two of the most recognisable jedi. If the jedi order hadn't fallen, they would probably have never become hermits.

So, yeah, I know Luke had similar thoughts at one time. But, to be fair, he wasn't arrogant enough to think that what he was thinking about should be done for every jedi, and unlike Jacen he was an experienced jedi when he had the thoughts, not a 16 year old who thinks of himself as special. Plus, the fact that Luke ultimately rejected the idea that he needed to become a hermit just makes Jacen's opinions seem even stupider, atleast when it comes to what the jedi as a whole should be doing.

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:19 pm

Message

WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

Cerrinea wrote:

I'd reread LOTF, but I don't think I can stand to.

And Jacen was also having the Dark Man on the Throne visions so there's that, which fits in FOTJ.

Skip the mando parts, it actually works better. Especially in the 5th book.

Granted there are still a lot of other problems.

I've been thinking a lot about Jacen's fall after finishing Fate of the Jedi. And I don't think it fall to the dark is nearly as bad as I once did. In the NJO books. Jacen was pretty arrogant at times. Maybe not in the same way as Kyp and some others, but he always seemed to want to make the big gesture and do something big. Be it cut himself from the Force to teach all the other Jedi or thinking he knows better then everyone else. Looking at him in that perspective makes it slightly more believable that he'll think he could learn the Sith teachings without making the same mistakes as those before him. Especially if he felt the fate of the galaxy was at stake.