Manchester.

I am always late to the party and as I usually avoid “News” I have only just read of the Manchester Bomb attack.

I know quite a few people in Manchester but so far have not heard of anyone I might know that was hurt, or worse. I am actually feeling a little nervous about opening Facebook. But the phone has not rung so that’s at least something.

Two things struck me more than others:

First: While this is a definite terrorist attack and the blame seems to have been laid squarely with ISIS, I have not read anything stating that this attack was religiously motivated.

Second: A former South African, Church of England Dean Rogers Govender is quoted as saying: “We prayed in the street.”

Somehow, this seems not only utterly trite and pointless, but also, under the circumstances, utterly revolting.

On another blog the question came up how to stop these attacks of terror from religious groups. I would also add superiority groups also. One person suggested the old wipe them out argument. Others said this wouldn’t work and never has. Some looked to the Irland situation. Others said empower moderates of all religions, but that seem to not have had any ability to stop anything so far. I don’t have an answer but I would love to hear how others think we should proceed to fix this. You all have far more understanding of the religions, the way people react, and history than I do and so I look forward to your ideas. Thanks. Hugs

I think that time has well come. I just wonder what could be done to change someones mind like C.S. , or G.M.F., if they or people like them believed their god said go kill for me? They won’t see reason now on even the easy stuff, and I can’t see a way to break through to them. Can anyone else? Thanks. Hugs

Hello John. I am curious about this idea of virgins and the idea that that guys get them for relations in “heaven”? I know next to nothing about the Quran other than what I have seen on these blogs or talks on YouTube. But when I was in the SDA church they really stressed that angels had no gender, and that we wouldn’t have gender either when we were in heaven. Even married people wouldn’t be married anymore. I have been told that the Islamic faith has its roots in the teachings of the bible. So that the god in both is the same god. SO if there is no gender in heaven, what good is any number of females ( or males if you prefer ) virgin or not? Thanks. Hugs

Hey Scottie. I saw a video a while ago when some Iman goes into detail about the women you’ll get in heaven + your wie, for 60 years, if I remember correctly. I have no idea where in the Qur’an that all is, but the raisens/virgins thing appears to be real. A funny mistranslation if there ever was one

Oh John you made my morning. I have been listening to some dry boring rebuttals to some religious videos and getting rather down. You gave me a great laugh thinking of the faces of the faces of all these young horny guys that couldn’t get a date, were taught to not even touch themselves, when they get what they think is going to be the best sex ever…and get handed a box of raisins. 🙂 🙂 Grand. Thanks. Hugs

One can only deduce that religious indoctrination utterly destroys certain logic circuits in the brain. This is borne out by the success of sects like the Moonies, where the only way in some cases to restore converts to the sanity they had before going through the brainwashing techniques employed was to do a kind of reverse brainwashing known as ‘deprogramming’, which one can assume restored those circuits. I do know personally of a case of a S African youngster who had to be kidnapped and deprogrammed in USA after giving away all belongings and cutting all ties with family and friends. As far as I am aware, he did return to a normal existence.

This is in fact how it happens, you’re correct. I believe one of the blokes involved with US authorities, a former Islam extremest, is an expert on this subject.
How one goes about deprogramming in such a large scale I would not like to guess.
But it is the moderates in all religions that give the extremists ”cover” whether they realise it or not. And I suspect they do, but cannot admit it as it would mean fingers being pointed at them and the untenability of their own faith based position/claims.
After all, do not all ”true” Muslims believe Mohammed went to heaven on a winged horse?

Almost as laughable as suggesting a corpse rose from the dead, and who in their right mind would believe such a tale?

That would be a great start, I agree.
Many moderates do, but there are many that do not, and will struggle to discard even such things as Exodus, or Noah’s Ark, and once you begin to trim off bits it is very much like trying to level the legs of a table.

A difficult question. If a cult has enough adherents, it stops being regarded as a cult even though it has the same distasteful or disgusting qualities normally associated with the word.
All religions contain some elements of the ridiculous. Some have qualities which enable adherents to live happy, productive, and ‘good’ lives, usually by turning a blind eye to negative aspects.
The real dangers are fanatics and extremists, whether motivated by religion or misguided patriotism or hero-worship. Admittedly, religion is a rich breeding ground for such attitudes.

Haven’t boned up on it so I know nothing about it.
From your outrage I deduce it was someone having a crack at someone else, but in Britain? Must check … but let’s not lose track of for the religious pawns it’s a guaranteed shortcut to Paradise (Allah—or whoever—and all those houris, an eternity of non-stop copulating and swilling the wines forbidden in life).

I still think that facing facts would solve such problems fairly quickly—but will Snowflakes ever do that?

No …

Not until their snouts are rubbed in it (a la Manchester, perhaps?). No-one gets upset on someone else’s behalf, it has to affect them personally. (No-one other than me, but that’s my karma … in line for atheistic sainthood.)

Quite! But will anything meaningful be done?
The irony … and there are numerous examples … I’m a member of a Facebook group that posts about times past in my old town of Chester. The admin have put up a Manchester Solidarity type post and I the number of people writing ”Praying for the victims and their families” just baffles me.
If any god was out there he must have sat there and did nothing .
And of course he is the same god as worshiped by the ”wee scamp” who set off the bomb.
Obviously the bombers troubled childhood was much worse than yours or mine, Argus.

No-one listens when I state that we are in the middle of a war, here. Of course there’ll be the odd few casualties. The Muslim invasion is exactly that, an invasion, made all the more hideous by the 4GW way they’re going about it. If they openly stormed the beaches with guns we’d be down ther throwing them back in, no?

But openly storming our reception centres with wide-eyed little girls in arms and flaunting their sores … we do what any good Christians do, no?

I don’t. The refugee/immigrant thing is a contrived crisis designed to achieve the ends it is achieving. There are only two tools for defense— rationality, and rational self-interest. Ain’t gonna happen. The UK getting out of the EU is already too little, too late; and when the UK falls the world goes with it. Eventually.

The reaction will be as always.
Shock, horror disgust.
Pleas for calm.
Official statements by the Muslim councils expressing horror and distancing itself from these actions ( but not one bit apologizing for the fact the Qu’ran can be interpreted in such a way as to justify these acts)
There will be inquiries, more news and more news and more inquiries, and maybe an arrest or two (not likely in this case of course) and eventually it will be back to ”normal” and soon to be de riguer.

In all honesty, which parent is going to allow their kid to go to a concert for the next few month without shitting bricks just to let them out the door?

I feel bad for Muslim kids. I mean it.
But as for the rest … if they are not prepared to acknowledge that religion is the root cause then they must be prepared to accept responsibility.
Because that is the ultimate freedom and the one most people seem to forget.

I think I mentioned this in the blog post, and I have since noted that Facebook is awash with people ”Praying for the victims families”.
It truly is baffling that people really are so blindly ignorant.

God knew before The Creation that this, what He set in motion Himself, would happen.
You can’t deny that, Ark … no more than the Pope can, or the head head-chopper offer of Mecca. I certainly can’t.

So it’s all part of God’s Great Plan and who the hell are you to question His infinite wisdoms and mercies? You should be ashamed, Sir~! (Now go say two hundred thousand ‘hail Marys’ and all will be forgiven … He’s a benevolent God and doesn’t hold grudges. Much.

Hello Argus. I am in no way defending Islam with my comment but I wanted to share with you the situation in the states. We have far more terrorist attacks by Christian fundamentalist and white supremacist than we do from Muslims following Islam. I think anytime religion is given power it will cause grief and harm. I often get reminded about how Muslims throw gays off buildings in countries run under Islamic laws. I respond by asking what they think the Phelps and the fundamentalist calling for our death would do if they were in charge and could get aways with it? So it is both religion and hate I think we need to concentrate on. I just wish I had a clue what to do about them. Hugs

Hello Peter. I read about those guys that got caned. I noticed that before this that they really did not push the issue even though it was against the law. I hated what one of the females in the crowd said. She said something like this is positive punishment that we hope will serve as a lesson so that no one will break the rules again. They don’t get it. Their view is homosexuality is simply a sex act that breaks the rules.

I am sorry for the violence in the UK ( well everywhere really ) and I am surprised that you don’t have racial violence as Ron works with some people from England and they talk of the real anger to people of different ethnic backgrounds. I know Islam in other countries is very much a danger to gay people, and maybe some muslims in the states would hurt gay people. I do know that supremacists do hurt and kill gay people. I have written of a friend beaten to death because he was gay. We have christian church people throwing young teens out of their homes even though it is illegal and the kids live on the streets. Imagine what these people would do if they legally could? Honor killings maybe? I look at what is being done in the African countries by the christian religions. I am saying that all the religions that gain enough power to act on their hates and prejudices. They will all act the same towards people they claim their god opposes. One thing though, in the states where I live, I would feel safer in the presence of a group of muslims carrying a gay pride flag than in a group of of some of the rednecks and fundamentalist christians in the area I live in. I think of the gay people being rounded up and killed in Chechnya which is a mostly christian country.

I have been assaulted in the past and threatened in the past, again not by a muslim but by god fearing white good old boys. I also have found friendship with people of different faiths, ethnic backgrounds and race, and even yes with a couple really nice muslims.

I do think the religions are trying to take over countries and governments. I do think they are trying to change the laws in the UK. I know also that we have fundamentalist christians that go to other countries and try to get the laws passed in those countries that they can’t get passed here. It is a huge business with a bunch of groups doing all they can to make nations christians and pushing laws to harm gay people. That is why I ask what can be done. I don’t know. I don’t want a world ruled by religions. I don’t want a world where there is such acts of violence and fear. I was hoping that someone for countries that had fought this problem, like the UK, would have more of an answer than I do. Thanks Peter. Hugs

My apologies to Peter and everyone. I wrote that chechnya was a mostly christian nation. It is not. It seems to have a long Islamic history. I was thinking of the Russian orthodox religion of Russia as the Russia and Chechnya are close. Sorry. Hugs

This has coincided with Indonesia becoming more observant of Islamic practices.

Indeed the ethnic Chinese (Christian) candidate for governor of Jakarta was found guilty of blasphemy and is now in prison. The trend towards intolerance is frightening to me in Australia with our near neighbour to the north.

Hi Peter. I think we may be miscommunicating with each other. I am not denying that Islam is a problem and a threat. I am agreeing that in your world it is more a threat than other religions. I am simply adding into the mix that all religions that get power or a level of control are dangerous. To me in my world my threats are from the christian denominations. As they are in many places around the world. The Islamist do not have that kind of infrastructure here in the states yet. However white supremacists are already ingrained in the culture and have a rather large population. Same with radical christian sects. Yes we have them. Preachers who shout death to gay people and incite their followers to hate and act against gays.
Again Peter I am not trying to say Islam is not dangerous and is not violent. They are both. So is christianity. For example I watched in horror YouTube videos of the Russian young people targeting gays, many teens, and while torturing and yes killing some, they were talking about how their god hates fags. Be well Peter, please be safe. Warm hugs

What to do about them? Get people actually thinking, Scottie. From the cradle onwards if we are to survive and prosper we need think.

As I’ve often stated, a basic starting point is simply ‘contradiction’. Look for the apparent contradictions, because a real contradiction doesn’t exist—all that is possible is one or more false premises. So—

a. Islam is a religion of peace.

b. Islamics run around blowing folks up …

—is there any contradiction in the above, hmmm? And yes, given the first statement as definitive I would have to say that there is a blatant contradiction; ergo one of those two statements is false. As in utter bullshit …

Do we have any evidence for Islamics blowing folks up? Don’t ask me … ask Ark, he seems emotionally involved in this issue. He’d be better placed to fill you in on the topic. I can’t, I hardly bother with ‘news’ these days.

Thank you Argus. That is an important point you make. It is what I am looking for. Most of us know the problem , at least those not in denial. What I am looking for is possible ideas we have not tried. Trying to stop them by intelligence and more security is not really working at preventing all of them, some yes, but not all. I am looking for ideas that when a religious figure tells a young person to go kill those people or that they should hate those kinds of people, the young person says back to them “what is wrong with you, you are nuts”. It is even harder with a white house ( sorry guys ) that gives out all the hard won information and secrets. So how do we use the contradictions to get past the wall of “you don’t understand”. Thanks. Hugs

I have just had a discussion with a fundamentalist named Pastor Jeff Baxter, and tried to get him to explain how he would demonstrate to a South American Indian tribe the veracity of his claim that the bible is divinely inspired/word of ‘God’.

His ultimate answer:
The bible is infallible and the holy spirit will guide him.

I see no way around such a thought process.
Is this level of indoctrination any less than the dickhead that set off the bomb in Manchester?
Probably not.
Only the outcome is different.
But if he suddenly believed – or could be further indoctrinated to believe- that you as a gay person and me as an atheist had to be killed what would stop him from carrying out such an action?

Wow, Thanks Ark, but that is somewhat deflating. I figure if you with all your study and experience refuting these guys can’t think of how to break through, I don’t have much of a chance at all. The only thing I can think of is to make it more personal to them. I am not saying more angry or in your face. I think one of the ways people started to realise gay people were just regular people like themselves was when they got to know some gay people. Kids were able to sometimes reach their parents, brothers and sisters sometimes found acceptance with each other. It clearly doesn’t work all the time. I am lucky, I have not known any really threatening Muslims, and the religious anti-gay people around me are older people who like to talk shit but have little ability to do much and will back down if you confront them. But then again I am rather sheltered in my environment, I don’t often leave my home right now. The internet is where I find most of the animosity flowing and I am learning by watching the groups here how to best respond. Thanks. Be well. If you have any other ideas I would love to hear them. Hugs

Religion (take your pick, there’s thousands of unique paths to The One True God) is simply a means to wealth and power. The guy with the sack running around conning one mite at a time from enough widows eventually becomes a very wealthy guy with a sack …

Piggy:
Nothing new here. Seeking further wealth and power we had the squabblings between Christians and Moors that we know as the Crusades. At one time Spain was Islamic before it became Christian again. Now it could well go Islamic and this time without anyone having to be killed in combat; nice work if you are Islamic and can get it.

The solution is to either cut out the middle man and just give Europe to Islam on a plate—or fight to hold your Nationhood and independence. Some would see the ultimate solution as the world becoming One, under Islam. I think it will happen …

But even in the Great Religion of love, peace, mercy, and compassion (Islam) — we have Islamics at each others’ throats, Sunni and Shia killing each other all over the place … Allah will know of course who gets the houris and booze, He’s clever like that.

There are other religions, not all are as sweet as those of the God of Abraham …

One reason I shake my head in utter dismay at those none-so-blind-as-those-that-won’t-see etc …folk who now wish to smother Face book etc with photos of Muslims assuring us that all Muslims re not bombers and murderers etc.
And of course they are not and by and by large lead generally blame-free normal lives …. except ….
(fill in the details )

I believe there are two ways of looking at this. By not ”promoting it” some beleive we are saying we will not acknowledge your vile deeds by filling news space. And I am sure ”studies” have been undertaken to demonstrate that this can be effective.

But are we not, In a manner of speaking, simply putting our heads in the sand and desperately exercising PC by not calling a spade a spade?

Of course, Mr and Mrs Ishmael who own the corner veggie shop and go to Mosque, and pray five times a day are apparently a billion miles away from the likes of ISIS. And on the ground they are.
Yet,if ordinary religious people, and in this case ordinary Muslims, were continually made aware of the vileness of their religion …. and it is vile, make no mistake, maybe we might begin to see a change of mindset?

After all, Muslim in-fighting between Sunni and Shi’ite is there for all to see and if Muslims eventually get a big enough foothold in Europe it will not stop at decrying the ”Infidel”, of this you can be absolutely certain.

This is not WWII where we have to worry about intel being disseminated to German spies!

I honestly believe it is time to call out Islam (and all religion) for what it truly is.