THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER," and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.

Thomas Paine, 1776

Tyranny oppressive power over the mind of man

the tyranny of a police state

the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant

Tyrant - an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution

Tyranny is like hell in the sense that neither actually existsin reality .Tyranny, like hell are words used by north American evangelicals to control through fear.They will show you how to avoid going to hell, and they also offer weapons and the chance to fight against tyranny.The whole them and us spirit.The Holy Spirit abhors this them and us spirit.

The Holy Spirit rejects the idea that to truly motivate men you have to use fear.

I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.

I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.

goodreport

I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.

I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.

Blessings.

Thank you... for thoughts to consider as I meditate on

Eph 5:15-1615 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise.16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Col 4:5-65 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how ye ought to answer every man.

1 Pet 3:1515 sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.

I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.

Blessings.

Yes the saved and the unsaved Me unsaved before I entered into the knowlegde that Jesus had saved me from the fountationsof the earth.

Yes There are friends of God and enemies of God. Me an enemey of God. I was an enemy of God He made me his enemy before I even new he was God . It wasn't untill I knew I was his enemy,that I found out I was his friend he made me his friend.

Yes There are those of faith, and those not of the faithMe without faith until God gave me faith.

I think if one looked, one could find thousands of examples of tyranny. Though to some degree they may have used parts of it, IMO, North American Evangelicals has practically nothing to do with that at its basest level. It's existed for thousands of years.

I also believe the scriptures are very clear. There is saved/unsaved. There are friends of God and enemies of God. There are those of faith, and those not of the faith. I see this whole "us/them" argument used by so many as a distracting red herring from those scriptural statements. YET, that's no excuse for hate. We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Hard saying, but it's part of the kingdom.

Blessings.

Yes the saved and the unsaved Me unsaved before I entered into the knowlegde that Jesus had saved me from the fountationsof the earth.

Yes There are friends of God and enemies of God. Me an enemey of God. I was an enemy of God He made me his enemy before I even new he was God . It wasn't untill I knew I was his enemy,that I found out I was his friend he made me his friend.

Yes There are those of faith, and those not of the faithMe without faith until God gave me faith.

Them/Us are one .They are you .

It not because your herring is red.

It's not hearing what you read.

I guess you think your insult is clever. Now why don't you take another shot at it, and this time try for accuracy.

Also, I've got a question for you. Did you just one day decide you were "saved", or was there more to it than that?

If so, what? From some of the things you've been saying lately, I'm curious.

Also, as far as your above post; disagreeing with you is not the same thing as not "hearing". By the grace of God, I am not "one" with the world. If you are, I'd suggest that's something to reconsider. "...such WERE some of you.."

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Col 1:19-23)

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (1Co 15:1-2)

Those are two really big IFS. I sure didnt put them there. "All scripture is God-breathed......Holy men moved of God, etc."

For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (1Pe 4:17-19)

Are we saved with difficulty? How is this? On the one hand we are told we are saved by grace, entering rest, yet on the other hand we are told we are saved with difficulty. Paradoxical paradigms again HAHAHA!

We have to look at the word saved as carefully as we have looked at the word "aionios". It means "healed, delivered, made whole".

The enemies of God have not yet been healed, delivered, made whole. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do". And they are made up as much or more of religious people, as what we call sinners. "The harlots and the publicans will enter in before you".

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it is for those who are "born not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh but are begotten of God" and we have His spirit whereby we cry ABBA FATHER! ( A term of childlike familiarity like, "Daddy!" or "Poppa"). You were born not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, the LIVING AND ABIDING word of God.

We ALL once walked among "them", the "not yet made whole", as enemies, because the carnal mind is enmity towards God, and "cannot please God"(1 Cor 2,3).

Once we are delivered, healed, made whole we are pleasing, acceptable sacrifices because of His blood shed for us and our faith in HIM- IF.

"If you continue in my word(abide, dwell in, walk in) you will kno the truth and the truth shall MAKE YOU FREE- healed, delivered, made whole."- This is the GLORIOUS FREEDOM of the children of God. THIS IS SALVATION.

Act 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Perverse is "SKOLIOS", from which we get "scoliosis"- warped spine. This WARPED generation. Repent(change your mind). Make straight paths for your feet. Prepare the way of the Lord.

Saved equals free, healed, made whole, delivered. Not all are yet. We who are can become a part of their experience of the grace of God IF we continue in the word. IF we walk after the Spirit. IF we continue in the faith grounded and settled. This is the inheritance of the children of God.

IF NOT, we may eventually fall back under the dominion of the flesh. We are no longer healed, delivered, made whole. We come again into kolassis(1 Cor 3:15), BUT EVEN SO, we will be "saved/healed/delivered" -altho "as through fire" and we will "lose our reward"(inheritance).

Even should we fall so far back into "enemy behavior" that we are "delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh"- it will be sfor the purpose that our spirit will be "saved-healed, delivered, made whole, set free" in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

In that day every adversary will be subjected, "as through fire", until every knee bows and every tongue confesses, until evryone in heaven and earth are gathered into one in Christ and Jesus delivers the kingdom over to the Father so that God may be ALL IN ALL- ALL saved-healed, delivered, made whole, set free....

The entire creation set free from futility- all authority, rule and power done away because all are in love and love needs no authority.

Only so long as there is one who is not "healed, delivered, made whole, set free" by the love of God will authority continue.

"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' "And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. "It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.' "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." (Act 3:17-26)

Therefore we see the progressive nature of salvation, being as it is, THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHIN. Sown in the earth as a seed(Jesus the Logos), incorruptible and eternal, first to the Jews(where the word was first sown and the covenant first sealed) then on into the Gentiles through the seed of Abraham, the father of faith. Then the ecclesia "in the ages to come" setting the whole creation free into the "glorious freedom" that is restoration, salvation, for all.

Hi John. I agree with a sort of progressive nature of salvation. But I believe it begins with the spiritual new birth, being drawn and given faith to believe unto salvation, which is trusting Jesus as our Savior. Then progressively we grow in grace and knowledge, are brought into maturity from there. But the spirit is saved, born from above, by the free gift (which I believe, can't be lost) at the moment of "salvation"/spiritual new birth when given the faith to believe. "He who has begun a good work, complete it"..."keep that which I've committed..that day"..."Jesus, Author and Finisher (Beginner and Completer)"..."grace through faith, free gift, not of works.."

However, other parts of us can be lost - or preferably, surrendered in obedience in this lifetime. Without that new birth, IMO and I believe the scriptures teach, we have not reconciled to God, are destined for destruction [of the flesh/carnal nature] in the Lake of Fire, in what brings those as yet unsaved to kneel and confess Jesus as Lord. Until that happens, IMO, we're just whistlin' Dixie.

I agree with most of that, I just avoid defining it religiously, rather than by the scriptures alone. Fundamentalism, evangelicalism and pentecostalism have instituted some very narrowly defined parameters for the word "saved". Many of them do not align with the scriptures, and of course they can't because they don't understand "salvation" or the nature of it beyond the barest elemental perception.

The scriptures are the only words that speak to me.

Otherwise, What do we do with Paul's IFs :o)

If I speak of losing salvation, I am only speaking of DISCONTINUING of our own volition to walk in the healing and deliverance that salvation IS- and I don't mean that so much as stumbling or having failure, or even sin in our lives(unless it is a sin unto death).

I just don't think the scriptures teach salvation as an EVENT. I think the scriptures teach salvation as a STATE OF BEING. It is given freely by God as a gift, yet we must abide in it to experience the benefits of it. One must continue in the STATE OF BEING which of course, is fellowship with God in Christ, in order to experience the effect of that state of being, which is healing, wholeness, freedom, wisdom, love, etc.- all issues of the heart- only God knows.

In other words, to me salvation IS the healing, not the knowledge of it, and it is progressive- and as the olive branches that were cut off discovered, this life can be lost- altho they can be grafted in again at any time they wish to be so. Some were cut off because they MADE RELIGION OF IT. Some were cut off because they forgot God and engaed in the wickedness of the nations among whom they were pilgrims. Paul says in Romans we also, who have been grafted in, can be cut-off for arrogance.

What does this mean?

Whatever differences of understanding someone may have about that and how it happens intellectually, if their spirit is in union with God they will receive the benefits of it.

Whatever differences of understanding someone may have about that and how it happens intellectually, if their spirit is not in union with God they will not experience the benefits of it- regardless of what they kno. again

Much of the rest I could see reasons for discussing it further, examining, perseverance of the saints (which I believe) vs. working to maintain one's salvation (which I don't believe). I don't think how any one group defines it, whether their belief includes hell, or not; but as for the quoted, I probably couldn't disagree more.

You don't believe someone is lost, then the Holy Spirit visits each person and calls them into belief and God gives the faith to trust and call on Jesus? I believe that's taught in numerous scriptures- and that's the spiritual new birth. In scripture it's called "being born from above".

P.S. IMO, the "barest elemental perception" is what's required to be saved. Believe, trust, come as a little child, etc.. Only initiated and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

And I believe saved is a perfectly good, scriptural word..that means being brought by the Holy Spirit into saving faith in Jesus and His work on the cross. I believe that's a miracle, not some ascending road. The road is obedience, growth, overcoming...not being spiritually reborn or "saved".

Perhaps I ought to have said, I do not believe salvation is MERELY an event. I had a powerful experience when I met Jesus. I was saved(healed, delivered, made whole) through a sovereign revelation of Jesus Christ that was made direct to my entire being without words from man or prayer on my part. I would say it was no less powerful than Paul's conversion experience.

Yet I have known people who could not remember, or point to a particular time or moment when they were, quote /unquote saved, but the TESTIMONY of HIS LIFE was there and I could clearly see it, and their works confirmed it as did their love for Him.

Reducing salvation to an event is the worst thing that ever happened to the gospel- it is a RESTORED LIFE, a REVOLUTIONIZED BEING, a PROFOUND EXCHANGE OF LIFE that bears witness to it, not the four spiritual laws or a prayer before some man in some building somewhere.

What I am saying is that salvation firstly and overwhelmingly IS AN EXPERIENCE OF ENTERING AND ABIDING IN A STATE OF BEING- NEWNESS OF LIFE. The STATE OF BEING DEFINES IT. Not the event or the method. I know many who think they had the event but I have never seen in them the STATE OF BEING- and Jesus bears witness to such as these Himself..........

Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".

I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love. Their works testified to their STATE OF BEING that they did not understand salvation or what they were saved from. They never realized what they were leaving behind or what they were trying to find. This is the deadly leaven of religion.

I definitely believe in rebirth, I quoted all those scriptures in my post above. We can say, "This is salvation" as we look at a seed in out hand. We can say, "This is salvation as we plant that seed in the ground". If we do not water the seed or allow it sun and rain, our salvation will remain as a seed unseen beneath the ground.

I want us to see the tree, fully raised from the soil and bearing fruit for the healing of the nations and say, "This is salvation!"- without someone grabbing my hand and digging up that seed that is buried in the ground and saying, "NO- THIS IS SALVATION". I am not negating the seed.

P.S. If you think I am saying that salvation is a gradual ascension experience that does not require knowing Jesus Christ you are not reading my posts very thoroughly :o) It is all about knowing Jesus.

Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".

I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.

But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil.

great scrip Molly. Of course I read it from my perspective - He captures us, then pushes us forward. We "run a race" and are expected to be faithful. Howevah..."I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Rm. 9:15,16

John mentioned splitting this off. Any time you want (right now!? ) and have something, bring us back on topic.

I did have some fella send me this tonight;

"Peace brother, Jesus is Lord. Mitt Romney and Barack Obama are just the faces of two machines fighting to dominate our culture. Jesus is our only hope and maybe now we will all see it and get serious about praying for Him to awaken and empower us."

Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".

I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.

But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil.

Didnt we prophesy? Didnt we do many mighty works? Depart from me you lawless ones, I NEVER KNEW YOU. This has been perverted by evangelicals and fundamentalists to mean- "You never really got saved".

I disagree. They did these works in His name. They called Him Lord. They did not continue IN FELLOWSHIP with Him in His love.

But notice the bolded and underlined. Just doing something and claiming it as a holy or religious activity, or even having a head knowledge/belief does not save/give the new birth. The devils believe and tremble. The demon possessed man followed the disciples mouthing a confession about Jesus. But he didn't know Him. He had not as yet been visited by the Holy Spirit and given faith to believe on Jesus as His Savior. That's a miraculous event (as you experienced), brought by the grace of God. "Each in his own order." But again, that's probably a "secondary" doctrine as far as I'm concerned. Good people have disagreed about that for centuries - i.e., working to maintain salvation vs. it being sealed and guarded by the Holy Spirit. I personally believe Paul was addressing that when he talked about beginning by grace and then trying to maintain it by works. I don't think that one's going to be 100% agreed upon this side of the veil.

Then IMO, that's the main thing, especially the starting point - and that we ALL experience it in God's timing and according to His will.

Sure, it can be that, but where was it like that in the scriptures? In the scriptures, they proclaimed the gospel, believers followed, were baptized in water, then they were filled with the Holy Spirit according to the promise and became a part of a vibrant community of new creatures.

Not much of what we see today in churches looks even remotely like what we read in the scriptures, yet, we say we stand upon the word- but really we have just converted it all to religion(IMO).

We take a word, like "saved", we basicaly gut it of its ongoing daily reality and make it primarily a past tense event and comfort ourselves with it(not saying u r doing that James)- when all the while the scriptures have it in present AND future tense and all sorts of additional facets to it expressed in a variety of ways- which get ignored or even denied.

I take note your focus on the words NEVER KNEW YOU, but in any case THEY DID ALL THESE THINGS THINKING THEY HAD THE EXPERIENCED THE "BLESSED EVENT". My main point is that they CLEARLY THOUGHT THEY KNEW HIM. They probably defined themselves as "saved" because of something they did in a church somewhere. But their works declared that they did not know the Lord..... Jesus defined their spirituality by their works in this place, as He had done also in the parable of the Good Samaritan- NOT because we are saved by works, but because true salvation produces certain works.

Works do not INITIATE or MAINTAIN our faith, they testify that it is REAL.

Love is the only thing that maintains our faith, and it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given us(Rom 5:5)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind.....and love your neighbor as yourself.

Who is your neighbor?

I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.......Depart from me you lawless ones, into the fire...... etc.

To me this is about wood hay and stubble, gold silver and precious stones, and not so much about the theology of whether not they were "saved". IMO it has to be because we know NO ONE GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE- it is for consuming the darkness and bringing the heart of man to the throne of Messiah so that he can see the love of God(standing before him as a Lamb slain) and repent, be converted, bow the knee, become a new creation, etc.

Pretty much the same page - with this addition. I do know and see many people who love the Lord, are growing in Him, having the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. And most of them have never heard of UR or participated on a Christian discussion forum.