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Webbunny tumblelog
story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?.
In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

We do not know. We have not been able to test our understanding at the energies required for that time period. In particular, we do not have a testable theory of quantum gravity, which would be required to understand the very early universe. But, since the Big Bang is a description of *after* that time period, I don't see the problem.

Open to all atheists:Atheists say they lack a belief in God.God says that isn't true, that they do know of Him, but suppress that truth so they can continue sinning.Now God, by His nature cannot lie.But the atheist, appealing to subjective morality, is free to lie at will.Therefore why would anyone believe an atheist who claims that they lack a belief in God?

Interesting, you see, I completely destroy your assertion here.

I don't have sex, at all, I abhor it actually.I don't lie, it's too complicated to keep lies straight so I just don't do it.I don't steal, never needed or wanted to.I don't want anything that I cannot achieve myself, my agnostic father was a firm believer that if you cannot get it yourself, you don't deserve it anyway.I don't drink, being drunk is horrible to me, losing control of one's mind is something that frightens me.Never done any drugs other than tobacco.

Oh wait, most of that is not considered a "sin" anyway ... and any action with negative impacts on society can be justified by the bible so meh. Seems I am actually "purer" than even the christians. Wait, what was your point again?

<quoted text><quoted text>He said less than a nanosecond.It's actually, much, much, MUCH less than a nanosecond, perhaps as little as 5.4 x 10E-44 seconds, the Planck time.A nanosecond is 10E-9 seconds, a billionth of a second.A billionth of a billionth of a second is called an attosecond, 10E-18 seconds.A millionth of this value is called a yoctosecond, 10E-24 seconds. After this, we run out of prefixes, with twenty more powers of ten needed. The amount of time we are discussing is less than a billion billionths of a yoctosecond - much less, about 2%.54 billion billion billion billion billionths of a second. That's the size of the gap that your god must squeeze into for now.@ polymath - did I get that right?

<quoted text>You are the ones asserting there are absolutes. The need for evidence is completely contradictory of claiming there are absolutes. We want evidence, you supply no evidence. Until you supply evidence that there is a god then your god is mythology, that is not an absolute, that is called sanity.

There is absolutely no requirement that evidence be provided for you in this matter.

This is one of those things where you get it, or you don't. It is not a follow the herd issue, which your type is dependent upon to function. It is a personal issue deciding your future for yourself.

From your perspective your consciousness, your very being, will be dropped in the trash can upon your death in this existence. You will have spent a lot of time dwelling on an issue that means absolutely nothing in the larger scheme of things. Even any contributions you think you made to the advancement of mankind will be dropped in that same trash can. Succeeding generations will find their own way. You were just a fart in the wind.

Most of the ranting on here is directed against evangelical Christianity and the hierarchy found in organized religions. Pure and simple and plain old resentment of authority. This has caused many of those to deny any and all higher beings being responsible for this creation. It is a whistling by the graveyard thing. Absolute denial as a defense mechanism.

This resentment of authority is something also practiced by the religious. That is why you get so many different sects. All ideologies have people running the show. Religious and non-religious. Secular humanism, progressivenism, and a host of others also develop a hierarchy of people telling you how to act and think.

Spend more time enjoying life, and less in trying to tell others they are wrong for thinking and feeling the way they do.

My turn my turn! You don't have to tell me twice to let the boys breathe free of the confines of demon pants!You let the girls breathe along with that breathing exercise I taught you and beautiful babies are bound to happen ;-)<quoted text>

WHAT BABIES? Where r u taking this?

I'm telling Catcher about u! Just coz i said some things to him, it don't mean i broke the link, watch out, liberty guy!

<quoted text>So what happened during this (rather inconvenient for atheism) nanosecond?You do not know?So you accept that the origin of the universe was caused by something that you cannot explain or quantify.But you know it was not God.Your pre-suppositional bias is apparent and revealed in your logically fallacious contradiction.

The best guesses at this point of what happens before the Planck time:

<quoted text>There is absolutely no requirement that evidence be provided for you in this matter.This is one of those things where you get it, or you don't. It is not a follow the herd issue, which your type is dependent upon to function. It is a personal issue deciding your future for yourself.From your perspective your consciousness, your very being, will be dropped in the trash can upon your death in this existence. You will have spent a lot of time dwelling on an issue that means absolutely nothing in the larger scheme of things. Even any contributions you think you made to the advancement of mankind will be dropped in that same trash can. Succeeding generations will find their own way. You were just a fart in the wind.Most of the ranting on here is directed against evangelical Christianity and the hierarchy found in organized religions. Pure and simple and plain old resentment of authority. This has caused many of those to deny any and all higher beings being responsible for this creation. It is a whistling by the graveyard thing. Absolute denial as a defense mechanism.This resentment of authority is something also practiced by the religious. That is why you get so many different sects. All ideologies have people running the show. Religious and non-religious. Secular humanism, progressivenism, and a host of others also develop a hierarchy of people telling you how to act and think.Spend more time enjoying life, and less in trying to tell others they are wrong for thinking and feeling the way they do.

For you seeking evidence of things may not be enjoyment, but for us skeptics that is pleasure. It is more enjoyable to study the evidence and test it yourself, science offers us this opportunity, religion does not because there is no evidence supplied by the religious people. To assert something that lacks evidence as fact is delusion, seek help for that delusion.

<quoted text>Strawman.No one is arguing that "everything" is created by intelligence.What is being argued that all things that are created, were created by intelligence.God is eternal, so is not a part of the creation.

Please notice the shift in language. You went from 'everything has a cause' to 'everything that is created, is created by an intelligence'.

The first, obvious problem is that you have to show that 'being caused' and 'being created' are the same thing. But this is clearly wrong. An ice crystal can be caused by a decrease in temperature, but that crystal need not be 'created by an intelligence'. For example, it can form outside when the temperature drops.

But even your second claim (that everything created is created by an intelligence) is clearly wrong. Consider an ant colony. It was clearly created by those ants, but ant are not typically said to have intelligence. In fact, the creation of the ant colony is an instinctual act, not an intelligent one. The same can be said for spider webs, for example.

Finally, even if your (faulty) assumption that all created things are created by intelligences, to get your argument off the ground you still need to show those intelligences are created. Otherwise, your regression stops with human creators.

Open to all atheists:Atheists say they lack a belief in God.God says that isn't true, that they do know of Him, but suppress that truth so they can continue sinning.Now God, by His nature cannot lie.But the atheist, appealing to subjective morality, is free to lie at will.Therefore why would anyone believe an atheist who claims that they lack a belief in God?

You just have to love the circularity here. You assume there is a God that says this. And then you disbelieve the people who are right in front of you who say differently about themselves. Why should we believe you when you say there is a God?

That the first cause is a conclusion of logic and reason and indeed science is built on that principle?

This is false. Science is NOT built upon the first cause argument. Nor is it necessarily built on the concept that everything has a cause. It *is* built on the idea that we can make and test predictions based on our hypotheses.

And on that point, as an atheist, I see no absolute moral reason why you would not lie that you do in fact know God, would you care to explain to me, upon what basis I should believe you?

Your inability to see moral reason outside of the belief in a deity is not our failing. Most atheists are atheists because they have a respect for truth. Most have searched for your God and have not found him, have read the Bible and found it repulsive, and have looked at the theological arguments and have found them wanting. Your refusal to take our lack of belief at face value shows a disrespect that make conversation difficult, if not impossible.

Finally, you have given us no reason as for why we should believe *you*. You claim to believe in a God, but cannot give us any evidence of this being. You say it is clear, but cannot provide anything in support of that clarity. And you claim your particular interpretation is correct without distinguishing it from all the others. I think you actually doubt the existence of God and are lying to us.

<quoted text>Are you asking for a reasoned argument or empirical evidence?If you are arguing for empirical evidence, because that is the only method by which you measure the universe around you, then I would ask you to empirically show that a "rockdidit" (non life to life).If you reject God based on a prejudiced appeal to empiricism, then you also have to reject:arockdiditnothingdidit

Please point to any post I have ever made where I discussed how life came to be.

It would be wonderful if you didn't post anything else until you did so.

Oh sweet blissful silence.

There is not now, nor has there ever been, any proof of any god's existence.

<quoted text>My argument is quite logical.Everything created has a cause.The first cause has to be by nature eternal.To be eternal, the first cause has to operate outside of time.The first cause has to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all loving and eternal.On the point of God being eternal.He reveals the future consistently and accurately, therefore affirming He is outside of time and therefore the First Cause.

LOL...Only a true fundie can say "I am very logical" and "Everything created has a cause" and then turn around and say...well, everything except god..

Open to all atheists:Atheists say they lack a belief in God.God says that isn't true, that they do know of Him, but suppress that truth so they can continue sinning.Now God, by His nature cannot lie.But the atheist, appealing to subjective morality, is free to lie at will.Therefore why would anyone believe an atheist who claims that they lack a belief in God?

Open to all atheists:Atheists say they lack a belief in God.God says that isn't true, that they do know of Him, but suppress that truth so they can continue sinning.Now God, by His nature cannot lie.But the atheist, appealing to subjective morality, is free to lie at will.Therefore why would anyone believe an atheist who claims that they lack a belief in God?

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