This Autosport article got me thinking, but I imagine pretty much everyone else has noticed the size of the gap between Kimi and Seb so far this year already. He's not getting any younger, and with Ferrari now truly in position to fight for the WCC, can they afford to have one driver who routinely finishes half a minute or more down on his teammate?

I, like many F1 fans, have a soft spot for Kimi. Despite that, I do feel that if he can't improve both dramatically and soon, it's time for him to call it on his F1 career. I'm curious what other people think: will Kimi get another contract renewal this year? Should Kimi get another contract renewal this year? If respondents could qualify whether they are now - or have ever been - Kimi fans, that would also be interesting.

I'll go first with my own answer: No, I think this is Kimi's last year, and sadly I think it's time. There can only be so much of 'the next regulation change will bring back the old Kimi!' before we have to admit the old Kimi is never coming back. It's time to put a driver in that second Ferrari seat who can fight the Silver Arrows at the front, and maybe give Seb a push in the races as well: that driver is not Kimi anymore.

Remember, this isn't just an open invitation to bash Kimi! Be constructive, please!

I'm a fan and I pretty much feel the same, but I'd let him at least see out the season as I don't think the performance in two races can yet be called a "routine". If he doesn't significantly improve then it's time for him move on. I do however think last year was a truer display of Kimi's abilities compared to the season so far so there should be more to come from him.

As a big fan up until he left Ferrari, which has tapered off since his comeback, I'm thinking it should really be the last season for him. His current stint at Ferrari has overall been painful to watch as an old fan, even if I'm a Vettel fan now.

But what I feel and what Ferrari will do, those are two different things. I didn't think he would get an extension after 2014, then I really didn't think he would get an extension after 2015, and here he is still in F1.

So should he get a contract extension? I think not.Will he get one? I have no clue.

It's been two races. Two. No, he hasn't performed well, but it's still two races. Alonso's making Vandoorne look ordinary but I don't think we should be calling for his head, either.

If he carries on the way he's been doing, then of course it's a no-brainer. He's clearly not getting anywhere near the best out of the car and he's letting the team down. But people have very short memories in F1 and if he pulls it out of the bag in the next couple of races his poor start will be forgotten. You may as well pick lottery numbers as determine which way it's going to go after two races.

Quote:

Remember, this isn't just an open invitation to bash Kimi! Be constructive, please!

I was thinking just what Zoue was. This is just 2 races. Most drivers have one or 2 races in a season where they under perform. There is a small chance that this could be it and he'll be much stronger in all the others. I don't think that will be the case. But it is far too soon to decide anything about his future based on just 2 races.

I was thinking just what Zoue was. This is just 2 races. Most drivers have one or 2 races in a season where they under perform. There is a small chance that this could be it and he'll be much stronger in all the others. I don't think that will be the case. But it is far too soon to decide anything about his future based on just 2 races.

It's not just two races, though - it's these two races on top of the form he's been showing for quite a while now - and apparently Ferrari doesn't think it's too soon to talk about his future. If his actual employers are ready to discuss his future with the team, why can't we?

I don't even think he should have been given the previous contract! But seriously, this is way to early for this season. He's not as good as Vettel but hardly in the midfield. Honestly, outside of the top guys I am not really sure there are many that would be a big upgrade.

In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

_________________Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

the immediate future should be him being forced to the gym. looking at a picture when they line up for the anthem, i bet hes carrying at least 5kg over vettel. he cant afford to give him a whiff of any advantage.

ps there should be an option in the poll - thanks for the memories but its time to call it a day, rather then good riddance.

Kimi is probably on his last legs, but if Vettel is truly elite as expected from someone with 4 WDCs to his name, then replacing Kimi with the excuse of improving the WCC score for the team doesn't make much sense, because most of the drivers speculated to replace Kimi aren't really any better than him. It's early to say, but just look at how Bottas is doing at Mercedes to see that a potential replacement for Kimi might be worse than him and a failed gamble.

The team wants to market Vettel and perhaps build itself around him, so it's natural for Kimi to lose support, especially when the car isn't head and shoulders above the others. With Mercedes likely to pull ahead with Hamilton, there's even less incentive for them to focus on Kimi. It's a bit sad, but I've come to terms with it.

What frustrates me is that at this point in his career I just want him to drive the balls out of that Ferrari without regard for results, but he seems very erratic and on top of that the team will not give him the best strategies, especially when he doesn't put himself in the position for it (which would be achieved by outqualifying Vettel).

I can't help but think the two years he spent away from F1 hurt his skills a little bit, but he had a bit of a dream life back then, being paid by Ferrari to sit around doing nothing, and he had a lot of fun in rallying. The increasingly corporate nature of F1 doesn't help him much, though. He's the typical no-nonsense guy, but F1 these days is just full of nonsense and politics, perhaps even more than in the Balestre days, and it becomes harder for a guy like him to let his driving do the talking rather than use games to get the team to his side.

_________________

"Ask any racer, any real racer... It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning." (Dominic Toretto, "The Fast and The Furious")

I have always appreciated Kimi Raikkonen speed when he was a McLaren driver and I felt sorry for the guy in 2005 for all the problems he encountered that harmed his WDC campaign.

Other than that I don't remember many great moments from him. No memorable performances in the wet(but many crashes) , no magic Q3 laps. It is very difficult for someone who is not his fan to justify his salary or even comprehend why he is still around.

He should have retired gracefully(like Button) at the end of 2014/2015 with an excuse on why he is not competitive anymore against top dogs like Alonso and Vettel.

I have no doubt for example that the day that Alonso or Hamilton will be outpaced like Kimi in 2014/2015, they will retire immediately. Kimi fans have very low standard or expectations from him if they think his driving for the past 3 years have been acceptable.

Sainz would be an upgrade. His starts are the best among the young drivers(better than Verstappen), in Q3 he would give headaches to many top drivers and he is cheap. If Ferrari doesn't offer him a contract he will become The next Mercedes driver.

I have always appreciated Kimi Raikkonen speed when he was a McLaren driver and I felt sorry for the guy in 2005 for all the problems he encountered that harmed his WDC campaign.

Other than that I don't remember many great moments from him. No memorable performances in the wet(but many crashes) , no magic Q3 laps. It is very difficult for someone who is not his fan to justify his salary or even comprehend why he is still around.

He should have retired gracefully(like Button) at the end of 2014/2015 with an excuse on why he is not competitive anymore against top dogs like Alonso and Vettel.

I have no doubt for example that the day that Alonso or Hamilton will be outpaced like Kimi in 2014/2015, they will retire immediately. Kimi fans have very low standard or expectations from him if they think his driving for the past 3 years have been acceptable.

Sainz would be an upgrade. His starts are the best among the young drivers(better than Verstappen), in Q3 he would give headaches to many top drivers and he is cheap. If Ferrari doesn't offer him a contract he will become The next Mercedes driver.

Well, I realise it's only a single example but for me Monaco 2009 was a fairly magical lap, when he split the all-conquering Brawns and was pipped by Button by a mere two hundredths of a second, in a car that until then hadn't exactly been the class of the field. I think he also did quite well last year to beat Vettel on a number of occasions. Of course, the magic there was disguised by the fact that next to the Mercedes cars everybody else looked pedestrian. It's hard to get pole when you're carrying such a huge speed deficit.

But overall I'd agree his driving has not been of the standard that should be expected. Last year wasn't too bad IMO, but you'd expect more from a former WDC. His operating window is shockingly narrow, as demonstrated by this season's opening races. The current Ferrari is a good one and he needs to start doing it justice. Still think he can and the fact that Friday's sessions were cancelled did him no favours, but for the money Ferrari's paying him they're entitled to expect him to deliver regardless

I have always appreciated Kimi Raikkonen speed when he was a McLaren driver and I felt sorry for the guy in 2005 for all the problems he encountered that harmed his WDC campaign.

Other than that I don't remember many great moments from him. No memorable performances in the wet(but many crashes) , no magic Q3 laps. It is very difficult for someone who is not his fan to justify his salary or even comprehend why he is still around.

He should have retired gracefully(like Button) at the end of 2014/2015 with an excuse on why he is not competitive anymore against top dogs like Alonso and Vettel.

I have no doubt for example that the day that Alonso or Hamilton will be outpaced like Kimi in 2014/2015, they will retire immediately. Kimi fans have very low standard or expectations from him if they think his driving for the past 3 years have been acceptable.

Sainz would be an upgrade. His starts are the best among the young drivers(better than Verstappen), in Q3 he would give headaches to many top drivers and he is cheap. If Ferrari doesn't offer him a contract he will become The next Mercedes driver.

Well, I realise it's only a single example but for me Monaco 2009 was a fairly magical lap, when he split the all-conquering Brawns and was pipped by Button by a mere two hundredths of a second, in a car that until then hadn't exactly been the class of the field. I think he also did quite well last year to beat Vettel on a number of occasions. Of course, the magic there was disguised by the fact that next to the Mercedes cars everybody else looked pedestrian. It's hard to get pole when you're carrying such a huge speed deficit.

But overall I'd agree his driving has not been of the standard that should be expected. Last year wasn't too bad IMO, but you'd expect more from a former WDC. His operating window is shockingly narrow, as demonstrated by this season's opening races. The current Ferrari is a good one and he needs to start doing it justice. Still think he can and the fact that Friday's sessions were cancelled did him no favours, but for the money Ferrari's paying him they're entitled to expect him to deliver regardless

That just makes it more annoying. He can ( maybe we should say could?) be as good as the best, but then he can be average to be kind, downright terrible if you want to sting.

Like Oz, no speed all through the race, then pops in fastest lap? If he was poor all the time, you may think he was trying his best. When you see his best, you know he is not.

ps there should be an option in the poll - thanks for the memories but its time to call it a day, rather then good riddance.

Yes, I realize it reads as being unnecessarily harsh. I meant the option as more joking than anything else, but I should probably have phrased it neutrally like the others. Editing the poll would wipe the answers now however (at least I think?) so it's going to have to stay.

On the subject of last year, I find it the most puzzling of all Kimi's recent seasons. Through 2014 and 2015 (and, heck, even much of 2013) his major weakness against his teammates seemed to be qualifying. Yet in 2016 he was able to out-qualify one of the best one-lap specialists on the grid. At the same time, however, his head-to-head race performance was actually poorer than in 2015: he lost 10-3 against Vettel in 2016 compared to 10-4 the year before - although arguably there was the same number of races (1) in each year where he beat Vettel without something technical going wrong for Seb, so one could call it equal. Either way, it's baffling that he was suddenly able to not only live with but beat Vettel in qualifying only throughout 2016.

Ferrari really should not have re-signed him after 2014 and they have now kept him 3 additional years. At best there are 6-7 drivers on the grid who I would take Kimi ahead of right now. Ferrari have to make a decision about how serious they are when it comes to winning championships again because if they want to be back on top, they need a better driver in that seat.

With Kimi, you get maybe 2-3 excellent drives per year and 8-10 mediocre/ordinary performances. You then get another 8-10 performances where he is totally lost and cannot get the maximum performance out of the car. His performance window is too narrow and he cannot cope with even the slightest bit of adversity; either with the car or on the track. He is one of the most inept overtakers in the sport and even with a huge car advantage on a track with good overtaking opportunities, he is almost guaranteed not to make the pass.

I just don't think he brings much to the table anymore and it's basically dead weight to have him in that car. It's high time another driver got an opportunity with a top team.

As much as I like Kimi, IMHO his time is truly up. He showed some glimpses of his speed last year in qualifying. But still struggled in races.

Its time for Ferrari to get some new blood or Alonso back in that second seat. With strong car and where both Vettel and Alonso are in their careers right now, the team will actually thrive.Lot of people think there will be huge friction and ego clash in a team with Alonso, I think it will be opposite if it happens at Ferrari. They will both push each other and at Ferrari, you do what Ferrari tells you when its that kind of situation.

Or they could snatch Daniel or Perez or even get Pascal if Mercedes dont want him in the seat next year.

ps there should be an option in the poll - thanks for the memories but its time to call it a day, rather then good riddance.

Yes, I realize it reads as being unnecessarily harsh. I meant the option as more joking than anything else, but I should probably have phrased it neutrally like the others. Editing the poll would wipe the answers now however (at least I think?) so it's going to have to stay.

This. When I first read the poll options I thought the same, "good riddance" seems really a bit harsh. He's slower than Vettel and not getting any younger, but it's not like he's trundling around at the back of the field like Badoer in 2009.

I don't think he's going to have his contract renewed, especially as I think there will be quite some shake-ups in the driver lineups for next year: lots of drivers out of a contract, or with very little left of their contracts, everyone will have a clearer picture about the pecking order and trends for next year, as opposed to this year, where no-one really knew 100% where every team stands. And I think it's already time for him to hang his helmet. Like I said, he's not particularly slow, but I don't see him beating Vettel (or any of the top tier drivers) to a WDC if the car is capable.

History has shown that Ferrari are quite happy to run a #1 and #2 driver system, we saw this in the Schumacher years, they kept Irvine until he decided to leave, Barrichello until he decided to leave, they finally got rid of Massa but he had been there for 8 years.

The only time we actually saw equality was when Kimi and Massa were paired together but that was a case of the #1 driver not being able beat the #2 driver, this was because the tier 1 driver they thought they had signed was actually a tier 2 driver.

So all that being said they might keep Kimi because they're not going to be looking to pair Vettel up with a tier 1 driver plus Vettel likes Kimi and I don't believe they will be looking to upset Vettel.

It's been two races. Two. No, he hasn't performed well, but it's still two races. Alonso's making Vandoorne look ordinary but I don't think we should be calling for his head, either.

If he carries on the way he's been doing, then of course it's a no-brainer. He's clearly not getting anywhere near the best out of the car and he's letting the team down. But people have very short memories in F1 and if he pulls it out of the bag in the next couple of races his poor start will be forgotten. You may as well pick lottery numbers as determine which way it's going to go after two races.

Quote:

Remember, this isn't just an open invitation to bash Kimi! Be constructive, please!

Yeah, good luck with that one...

So you are comparing a driver that's been in F1 for 16 years with a driver that's done only 3 races in a car that's been unreliable?

Basic facts about 2016 are that in close to equal cars Kimi was inferior to Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen, this year thus far in close to equal cars he has been inferior speed wise to Bottas.

although i think he should retire at the end of the season i think we need to wait till after bahrain at the least before writing him off. at the end of the day the car is not setup properly yet. with no laps in fp1 and fp2 he didnt really get a chance to correct anything from aus. he was less then 3 tenths off vettel in quali which isnt disaterous. his race pace was poor, at least partly due to setup, and that in turn wearing his tyres out. vettel managed overtakes because he was fundamentally faster then kimi and could get closer to ric. not because kimi wasnt trying.

And to whoever was saying kimi is useless at overtaking. thats just ridiculous. he has made some brilliant overtakes in his career. just because he doesnt try a banzai danny ric style overtake where he outbrakes himself and prays to god the other driver will jump out of the way, doesnt mean he cant overtake.

In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

History has shown that Ferrari are quite happy to run a #1 and #2 driver system, we saw this in the Schumacher years, they kept Irvine until he decided to leave, Barrichello until he decided to leave, they finally got rid of Massa but he had been there for 8 years.

The only time we actually saw equality was when Kimi and Massa were paired together but that was a case of the #1 driver not being able beat the #2 driver, this was because the tier 1 driver they thought they had signed was actually a tier 2 driver.

So all that being said they might keep Kimi because they're not going to be looking to pair Vettel up with a tier 1 driver plus Vettel likes Kimi and I don't believe they will be looking to upset Vettel.

I'd agree that as long as Kimi manages to help them fight for the WCC and doesn't cost them materially in points then they will likely look to keep him. As you say, they won't want to upset Vettel too much and the pairing works well together. But Kimi still has to deliver and do better than he has done so far.

It's exactly the same at Mercedes, in fact. They took Bottas on to be a non-threatening number two to Lewis and, as long as he doesn't drop points necessarily (and maintain the harmony with Lewis), they'll keep him over more promising tier 1 options like e.g. Alonso. But, like Kimi, Bottas still has to deliver and help them secure the WCC. If he doesn't, then he'll be out, too.

It's uncanny how similar the two top teams are, tbh. Both have a favourite driver, which is especially clear when you hear how the management talk about them, and both have a Number Two Finn who's on the naughty step and will be fighting for his career this year. RBR appear to be the only (potential) front runner happy to have two alpha drivers. And neither of them are Finns

TBH, for the last several years I have been thinking he should go, but last year we had a few flashes of the old Kimi, and proved me wrong.

I still think he should not have returned from "retirement" though, he is a shadow of his former self.

There are drivers out there that will get better results for Ferrari.

I single out Perez for this.

12 race continous points finish now in Force India. Will do so much better in a Ferrari.

Perez is driving out of his skin...Would be great to see him in the Ferrari

There should be a thread about Perez by now and the fact that he keeps getting overlooked despite his excellent performance. It really is shameful that Kimi is somehow entitled to a top drive despite obviously underperforming for years while hard-chargers like Perez, who have overperformed for years, cannot escape the midfield.

In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.

Kimi is probably on his last legs, but if Vettel is truly elite as expected from someone with 4 WDCs to his name, then replacing Kimi with the excuse of improving the WCC score for the team doesn't make much sense, because most of the drivers speculated to replace Kimi aren't really any better than him. It's early to say, but just look at how Bottas is doing at Mercedes to see that a potential replacement for Kimi might be worse than him and a failed gamble.

The team wants to market Vettel and perhaps build itself around him, so it's natural for Kimi to lose support, especially when the car isn't head and shoulders above the others. With Mercedes likely to pull ahead with Hamilton, there's even less incentive for them to focus on Kimi. It's a bit sad, but I've come to terms with it.

What frustrates me is that at this point in his career I just want him to drive the balls out of that Ferrari without regard for results, but he seems very erratic and on top of that the team will not give him the best strategies, especially when he doesn't put himself in the position for it (which would be achieved by outqualifying Vettel).

I can't help but think the two years he spent away from F1 hurt his skills a little bit, but he had a bit of a dream life back then, being paid by Ferrari to sit around doing nothing, and he had a lot of fun in rallying. The increasingly corporate nature of F1 doesn't help him much, though. He's the typical no-nonsense guy, but F1 these days is just full of nonsense and politics, perhaps even more than in the Balestre days, and it becomes harder for a guy like him to let his driving do the talking rather than use games to get the team to his side.

As much as I like Kimi, IMHO his time is truly up. He showed some glimpses of his speed last year in qualifying. But still struggled in races.

Its time for Ferrari to get some new blood or Alonso back in that second seat. With strong car and where both Vettel and Alonso are in their careers right now, the team will actually thrive.Lot of people think there will be huge friction and ego clash in a team with Alonso, I think it will be opposite if it happens at Ferrari. They will both push each other and at Ferrari, you do what Ferrari tells you when its that kind of situation.

Or they could snatch Daniel or Perez or even get Pascal if Mercedes dont want him in the seat next year.

Agreed. Kimi is a spent force. He has nothing at all left in the can and should realize that and leave.

It's been two races. Two. No, he hasn't performed well, but it's still two races. Alonso's making Vandoorne look ordinary but I don't think we should be calling for his head, either.

If he carries on the way he's been doing, then of course it's a no-brainer. He's clearly not getting anywhere near the best out of the car and he's letting the team down. But people have very short memories in F1 and if he pulls it out of the bag in the next couple of races his poor start will be forgotten. You may as well pick lottery numbers as determine which way it's going to go after two races.

Quote:

Remember, this isn't just an open invitation to bash Kimi! Be constructive, please!

Yeah, good luck with that one...

So you are comparing a driver that's been in F1 for 16 years with a driver that's done only 3 races in a car that's been unreliable?

Basic facts about 2016 are that in close to equal cars Kimi was inferior to Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen, this year thus far in close to equal cars he has been inferior speed wise to Bottas.

Ah, well, if we are going to be talking basic facts then the basic fact is that until Japan the only driver out of that quartet doing better than him was Ricciardo, and it's very arguable that the Red Bull was a better car than the Ferrari at that point. In the USA, of course, despite qualifying ahead of Vettel (yet again), Kimi's race was compromised by a loose wheel and he was forced to retire. That's when he fell behind Vettel. Now while I'd agree that Vettel was better than him during the races - although certainly not in qualifying - Kimi wasn't exactly poor overall. He finished 6th in the 3rd best car, so all in all didn't disgrace himself by any means.

This year Kimi has been poor, no argument there. But I'll go back to my argument that two races is way too early to start talking about replacing him and I often get the feeling that people are just waiting for him to trip just so that can trot out the same old line. It's just a wonder no-one's mentioned ice-cream, yet.

As regards the comparison with Vandoorne, the point is simply that if two races are too early to judge him on, then why are they enough to condemn Kimi? You and I have debated before on how much leeway rookies should have in F1, so my position should come as no surprise to you and it's not as though I'm being inconsistent. Two races is too early, period. Let's keep the vultures away for a respectable time at least

Yes....I am pretty much die hard Kimi fan, but after yesterday's race, I was left disappointed and faced with the truth that the old Kimi is no more....but I will still hope for one more win....I still hope. To fight for the championship against Seb he can't be 4/10ths off the pace in qualy nor in the race.

As regards the comparison with Vandoorne, the point is simply that if two races are too early to judge him on, then why are they enough to condemn Kimi?

I'm not sure most have just the two races in mind Zoue. More likely his entire stint at Ferrari, which is into its fourth season now. 2014 and 2015 were weak for him, 2017 is starting out weak, and 2016...

Well as for 2016, I'm a Vettel fan but I don't think last year was Vettel at his best, and he had quite a bit of mechanical and strategical gremlins too. All in all last year I don't think Kimi was necessarily good but Vettel not as good as in 2015 or currently or Alonso in 2014.

History has shown that Ferrari are quite happy to run a #1 and #2 driver system, we saw this in the Schumacher years, they kept Irvine until he decided to leave, Barrichello until he decided to leave, they finally got rid of Massa but he had been there for 8 years.

The only time we actually saw equality was when Kimi and Massa were paired together but that was a case of the #1 driver not being able beat the #2 driver, this was because the tier 1 driver they thought they had signed was actually a tier 2 driver.

So all that being said they might keep Kimi because they're not going to be looking to pair Vettel up with a tier 1 driver plus Vettel likes Kimi and I don't believe they will be looking to upset Vettel.

I'd agree that as long as Kimi manages to help them fight for the WCC and doesn't cost them materially in points then they will likely look to keep him. As you say, they won't want to upset Vettel too much and the pairing works well together. But Kimi still has to deliver and do better than he has done so far.

It's exactly the same at Mercedes, in fact. They took Bottas on to be a non-threatening number two to Lewis and, as long as he doesn't drop points necessarily (and maintain the harmony with Lewis), they'll keep him over more promising tier 1 options like e.g. Alonso. But, like Kimi, Bottas still has to deliver and help them secure the WCC. If he doesn't, then he'll be out, too.

It's uncanny how similar the two top teams are, tbh. Both have a favourite driver, which is especially clear when you hear how the management talk about them, and both have a Number Two Finn who's on the naughty step and will be fighting for his career this year. RBR appear to be the only (potential) front runner happy to have two alpha drivers. And neither of them are Finns

I think you are wrong about Mercedes, all the tier 1 drivers were under contract so they basically signed the best driver available that also made some commercial sense, let's not forget that even Bottas was bought out of his contract, there were cheaper drivers available like Wehrlein if they didn't want Hamilton challenged as such.

Also Bottas is on a 1 year contract which talks of perform or else, or if a tier 1 driver becomes available, Vettel, then you're out, whereas Ferrari have a history of re-signing under performing drivers, Kimi 2014 and 2015 being a prime example.

History has shown that Ferrari are quite happy to run a #1 and #2 driver system, we saw this in the Schumacher years, they kept Irvine until he decided to leave, Barrichello until he decided to leave, they finally got rid of Massa but he had been there for 8 years.

The only time we actually saw equality was when Kimi and Massa were paired together but that was a case of the #1 driver not being able beat the #2 driver, this was because the tier 1 driver they thought they had signed was actually a tier 2 driver.

So all that being said they might keep Kimi because they're not going to be looking to pair Vettel up with a tier 1 driver plus Vettel likes Kimi and I don't believe they will be looking to upset Vettel.

I'd agree that as long as Kimi manages to help them fight for the WCC and doesn't cost them materially in points then they will likely look to keep him. As you say, they won't want to upset Vettel too much and the pairing works well together. But Kimi still has to deliver and do better than he has done so far.

It's exactly the same at Mercedes, in fact. They took Bottas on to be a non-threatening number two to Lewis and, as long as he doesn't drop points necessarily (and maintain the harmony with Lewis), they'll keep him over more promising tier 1 options like e.g. Alonso. But, like Kimi, Bottas still has to deliver and help them secure the WCC. If he doesn't, then he'll be out, too.

It's uncanny how similar the two top teams are, tbh. Both have a favourite driver, which is especially clear when you hear how the management talk about them, and both have a Number Two Finn who's on the naughty step and will be fighting for his career this year. RBR appear to be the only (potential) front runner happy to have two alpha drivers. And neither of them are Finns

I think you are wrong about Mercedes, all the tier 1 drivers were under contract so they basically signed the best driver available that also made some commercial sense, let's not forget that even Bottas was bought out of his contract, there were cheaper drivers available like Wehrlein if they didn't want Hamilton challenged as such.

Also Bottas is on a 1 year contract which talks of perform or else, or if a tier 1 driver becomes available, Vettel, then you're out, whereas Ferrari have a history of re-signing under performing drivers, Kimi 2014 and 2015 being a prime example.

I think it's exactly the same. Having a number two is not the same as having a weak driver. Bottas is strong enough to be a backup to Lewis and gain valuable WCC points, while not bringing the management headaches that a true tier 1 driver would bring. Toto pretty much said as much. He's on a 1-year contract - reportedly - because he hasn't really proven himself in a top team yet and because Wehrlein was considered too volatile and not quite ready. If they were that convinced he was the Next Best Thing, they would have signed him on a multi-year deal.

Like Bottas, Kimi is considered a good driver who won't challenge Vettel too much. He's also on a one year contract, don't forget, so if keeping Vettel happy was the sole consideration than why not give him a longer deal? It's because they are not entirely confident of his performance. A bit like Mercedes with Bottas. If Kimi doesn't perform, he'll be out. As will Bottas at Mercedes.

In the back of my mind I always have the idea that teams have a really hard time figuring out what a driver's characteristics and needs really are. After Ricciardo beat Vettel, how did the various teams change their views of Vettel?

I don't really consider myself a fan of any driver, but Räikkönen is the one who comes closest to making me a fan, and has done so ever since his first season. If Ferrari don't manage to do for him what Lotus-Renault were capable of, then perhaps it is time to let him go. Or do they feel it is not worth the bother to give him the front end he needs? Do they feel Vettel's performance might suffer if they do? If they do let Kimi go, which driver do they feel would have the driving style and technical needs that parallel Vettel's? And how certain are they of their assessement? And how willing are they to pay to get that particular driver to come to them as a likely number 2 driver?

My hope is that Ferrari are smart enough to work on the car and that this won't be Räikkönen's final year. If it turns out it is, then I will be glad to watch him with even more interest at Francorchamps.

Zoue, are you aware Vandoorne is not driving the same specification engine Alonso is? McLaren are trying to hang on to Alonso, and quite rightly so. Vandoorne's time will come.

Thank's for clearing that up for me, one thing I dislike about these claims of Alonso being the best driver is these advantages that are given to him within the teams, something he wasn't allowed in 2007.

except I don't think that's true. EB said Alonso had a different spec in Australia, but it wasn't PU-related. In fact he went out of his way to say there was no advantage and they were trying different things, which makes sense given how they are effectively running the races as test sessions anyway. If he's had a genuine advantage now then someone's going to have to provide some evidence, I'm afraid.

As far as I know..

Oz.Alonso had new front wing and bargeboards and Stoff didn't. Supposedly worth 3ths.

BahrainVandoorne had revised Turbo and MGU-H and Alonso didn't. Couple of kph on the traps but hard to be sure that's entirely due to that. Also saw some suggestion it helped with gear shifts as the noise was said to be clearly different between the cars with Alonso's sounding as rough as Melbourne.

I think the idea being that due to bad vibrations affecting the transmission they've been having to compromise their gearshifts and the new Turbine/H helped change that.

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Hasegawa did say the vibration issue was PU related but not ICE so maybe if they've followed Mercedes layout they are having some problems with the split turbo. No other team adopted it but Honda did in the previous version but that was in the Vee and had a much smaller shaft.

Mercedes did say it took them a year to develop it so maybe the pain in the butt is getting the longer connecting shaft to work properly without severe vibrations and getting it sturdy enough but without making it unreasonably heavy at the same time.

(That last part is just me guessing things though based on Cowell's comments about the Split Turbo).

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Last edited by Lotus49 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As regards the comparison with Vandoorne, the point is simply that if two races are too early to judge him on, then why are they enough to condemn Kimi?

I'm not sure most have just the two races in mind Zoue. More likely his entire stint at Ferrari, which is into its fourth season now. 2014 and 2015 were weak for him, 2017 is starting out weak, and 2016...

Well as for 2016, I'm a Vettel fan but I don't think last year was Vettel at his best, and he had quite a bit of mechanical and strategical gremlins too. All in all last year I don't think Kimi was necessarily good but Vettel not as good as in 2015 or currently or Alonso in 2014.

You'll get no argument from me about Vettel being better. But 2016 wasn't a bad stint, or else Kimi wouldn't have been extended in the first place. This year he's had two lacklustre performances, which IMO both stem from setup issues. He absolutely needs to get on top of that but it's way too early to conclude he's past it from the small sample we've had so far

As regards the comparison with Vandoorne, the point is simply that if two races are too early to judge him on, then why are they enough to condemn Kimi?

I'm not sure most have just the two races in mind Zoue. More likely his entire stint at Ferrari, which is into its fourth season now. 2014 and 2015 were weak for him, 2017 is starting out weak, and 2016...

Well as for 2016, I'm a Vettel fan but I don't think last year was Vettel at his best, and he had quite a bit of mechanical and strategical gremlins too. All in all last year I don't think Kimi was necessarily good but Vettel not as good as in 2015 or currently or Alonso in 2014.

You'll get no argument from me about Vettel being better. But 2016 wasn't a bad stint, or else Kimi wouldn't have been extended in the first place. This year he's had two lacklustre performances, which IMO both stem from setup issues. He absolutely needs to get on top of that but it's way too early to conclude he's past it from the small sample we've had so far

2016 was his best year in recent years but I wonder if Ferrari kept him this year for his experience that would prove crucial at a time of big regulation changes?

As regards the comparison with Vandoorne, the point is simply that if two races are too early to judge him on, then why are they enough to condemn Kimi?

I'm not sure most have just the two races in mind Zoue. More likely his entire stint at Ferrari, which is into its fourth season now. 2014 and 2015 were weak for him, 2017 is starting out weak, and 2016...

Well as for 2016, I'm a Vettel fan but I don't think last year was Vettel at his best, and he had quite a bit of mechanical and strategical gremlins too. All in all last year I don't think Kimi was necessarily good but Vettel not as good as in 2015 or currently or Alonso in 2014.

You'll get no argument from me about Vettel being better. But 2016 wasn't a bad stint, or else Kimi wouldn't have been extended in the first place. This year he's had two lacklustre performances, which IMO both stem from setup issues. He absolutely needs to get on top of that but it's way too early to conclude he's past it from the small sample we've had so far

In fairness to Kimi, losing out on Friday practice really hurt him in China.