Bollocks. You can't disprove the fact deaths ahd declined by 99.4%
before vax, or the fact vitamin C cures it and makes vax unecessary.

I disproved both of these statements, using multiple scientific studies to
back it up. As per usual you just ignored the links, and assumed that
because you ignored it that it didn't exist.

You don't need scientific studies to show death statistics, the governments
collect them.

That one stat demolishes measles vax, which is why you have a pathological
inability to see it.

The pathology is yours. Nobody is denying that measles deaths
declined greatly before vaccination. But measles cases didn't.
And you have a pathological inability to see THAT.

Quote:

same for vitamin C.

Oh look, John is quoting things he's written himself - again. No evidence
what-so-ever these claims are anything but one of the voices in ?your head;
nor any links to a scientific source which would support the claims made.
Ever heard of outside verification; it's the key to any good argument. . .

Now now, you can't see the measles death stats or how vitamin C cures
measles and other infections.

<list of ancient, not-properly-controlled studies deleted; as usual,
john reveres only studies at least 30 years old>

Quote:

MMR vaccine VAERS reports 7 deaths per year (1990-1994):
"From July 1990 thro' April 1994, 5799 ADRs following MMR vaccination were
reported to US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS); including
3063 cases requiring emergency medical treatment, 616 hospitalisations, 309
who did not recover, 54 children left disabled and 30 deaths.

VAERS data are not reviewed for any sort of correctness, relevance or
truth.

Quote:

SafeMinds Aids to Correct Misinformation

SafeMinds is usually involved in the dissemination of large quantities
of misinformation. Their latest effort -- to torpedo the July 2006
article in Pediatrics -- is more of the same. Desperate clutching at
straws to explain a result they don't like, not to mention a few
outright falsehoods, as when they attribute claims to Fombonne that
Fombonne does not make.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

In article <o5qdnZAohaEBMDPZnZ2dnUVZ8qCdnZ2d@bt.com>,
john <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

Quote:

"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:e8m3jv$hca$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
I see. Data is sound, so attack the researcher, and do it though a letter
you supposedly received from an unidentifiable source (Mr Miller). I'd
also point out that Eric Fombonne was just one of several researchers on
the project. This is how science is done - you surround yourself with
various experts, so that the study is done right. So you can question the
validity of Eric Fombonne's credentials all you want, but it doesn't change
the fact that he was one of 6 experts; including MD's and PhD's, who all
worked on the project.

For that matter, I don't suppose you could provide a link to prove what
you say is true; a search of Cochrane's webpage didn't bring up any
evidence of the article you claim exists; they don't even have Eric
Fombonne's name in their search engine! Not that I expect it exists; this
blatant attack on Eric Fombonne reeks of desperation. Must really suck to
see a long-held belief suffer a fatal wound.

As for the study, here is the link. I'm sure you'll make up some excuse
to ignore it, but I'm giving it anyways. If you actually bother to read
it, I'd love to hear how you explain away this evidence:

In article <Ko-dnfERJLNxajLZnZ2dnUVZ8qSdnZ2d@bt.com>,
john <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

Quote:

I was the first to announce the "autism epidemic", in 1995, and I pointed
out in that article that excessive vaccines were a plausible cause of the
epidemic.

At the time, that might have been a plausible position. Now, it's
not. But Rimland is stuck with his ideology, can't back away from
it.

Quote:

As you know, an enormous amount of clinical laboratory research
(as opposed to epidemiological research), has been accumulated since that
time, supporting my position. (I did not know then that the vaccines
contained mercury, although I had been collecting data since 1967 from the
mothers of autistic children, on any dental work they may have had during
their pregnancy.) The evidence is now overwhelming, despite the
misinformation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the
American Academy of Pediatrics and the Institute of Medicine. The
(Pretending to) Combat Autism Act By Bernard Rimland

Rimland is pretending, all right. Now that the mercury is out of
everything except some flu vaccines (and many children don't get flu
vaccines), the autism "epidemic" (which is probably an illusion)
should have gone away. It hasn't.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

In article <Ko-dnfERJLNxajLZnZ2dnUVZ8qSdnZ2d@bt.com>,
john <sc@nospam.com> wrote:

I was the first to announce the "autism epidemic", in 1995, and I pointed
out in that article that excessive vaccines were a plausible cause of the
epidemic.

At the time, that might have been a plausible position. Now, it's
not. But Rimland is stuck with his ideology, can't back away from
it.

As you know, an enormous amount of clinical laboratory research
(as opposed to epidemiological research), has been accumulated since that
time, supporting my position. (I did not know then that the vaccines
contained mercury, although I had been collecting data since 1967 from the
mothers of autistic children, on any dental work they may have had during
their pregnancy.) The evidence is now overwhelming, despite the
misinformation from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the
American Academy of Pediatrics and the Institute of Medicine. The
(Pretending to) Combat Autism Act By Bernard Rimland

Rimland is pretending, all right. Now that the mercury is out of
everything except some flu vaccines
snip

That's right, Jan. The big lie about the danger of mercury in vaccines
is told again. Do you ever read what you post? Just in case you didn't
read this one, here is a summary.

The following vaccines contain a measurable mount of thimerosal:

DTwP - Someone might like to tell me where this is still used
anywhere.

DT multi-dose - As DTaP does the job, there is rarely a need to use
only the DT form. The single-dose package contains no measurable
thimerosal, so there is no problem even if DT is required.

Tetanus toxoid and booster - Used in adults and after you get a rusty
nail in your foot, not as a routine childhood vaccine. Have you ever
seen anyone with tetanus, Jan? Do you know what the cure for tetanus
is if you get infected and don't get to the vaccine quickly, Jan? I
didn't think so.

Fluzone multi-dose pack - Thimerosal-free version available for the
brainwashed and paranoid.

Fluvirin - Version also available with so little thimerosal that it
shouldn't frighten even the most scientifically illiterate person (but
it will).

Menomune multi-dose pack - Thimerosal-free vaccine for meningococcal
is also available. Have you ever seen anyone with meningococcal
disease, Jan? If you hear of someone run quickly to have a look
because they could be dead the next day.

So, from Jan's own reference it is clearly demonstrated that all
vaccines are available in a thimerosal-free form, except the tetanus
toxoid and booster. I can assure you that when I need one of them I
won't be worrying about mercury.

I will be having a flu shot this week. I will not ask the doctor
whether it contains thimerosal or not, because I simply don't care and
I know that it can't harm me. I might even have a tetanus booster on
the same day. And have a tuna sandwich for lunch.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

I will be having a flu shot this week. I will not ask the doctor
whether it contains thimerosal or not, because I simply don't care and
I know that it can't harm me. I might even have a tetanus booster on
the same day. And have a tuna sandwich for lunch.

Mercurial Peter, that explains it!

"According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world's leading immunogeneticist and
13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review
journals), if an individual has had five consecutive flu shots between 1970
and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease
is ten times higher than if they had one, two or no shots. I asked Dr.
Fudenberg why this was so and he said it was due to the mercury and aluminum
that is in every flu shot (and most childhood shots). The gradual mercury
and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction. Is that why
Alzheimer's is expected to quadruple? Notes: Recorded from Dr. Fudenberg's
speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA
September, 1997. Quoted with permission. Alzheimer's to quadruple statement
is from John's Hopkins Newsletter Nov 1998."

And in another turn of events john has published yet another science-free
letter with no outside links, no citations of actual medical studies, and
nothing more then wild claims with nothing of substance to back them up.

Come on, John. If vaccines are so dangerous you surely can find some
little bit of science from the last 5 or so years to prove the case.

You seem to be good at forging letters, why not forge an entire scientific
study?

Bryan

I think you are losing it Bryan, as usual you use ad hominem, me lying,
without a shred of evidence. Which is what I'd expect from someone who
works for the gov, Canada is it? is it true that the Canadian gov has never
paid out for vaccine injuries until recently?

No idea. I hope they're not wasting our money on such payments though.

Quote:

That letter has a link to Millers web site, he is a lawyer
(Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England
Civil Proceedings), but you prefer to slander me instead of using your
finger to click your mouse

So let me get this straight, we're supposed to take the word of a Lawyer
over the word of doctors and scientists. Lol.

That letter has a link to Millers web site, he is a lawyer
(Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England
Civil Proceedings), but you prefer to slander me instead of using your
finger to click your mouse

Firstly, that doesn't even come close to verifying that the letter came
from him. Just because his name is on a webpage you wrote in no way,
shape or form proves that he wrote it. I could sign this e-mail as "the
pope", but that doesn't mean he wrote it.

Secondly, you've not even come close to proving the accuracy of this
letter. Aside from the questionable authorship, I also asked for proof
that the PDF you linked the letter to came from the Cochrane group.
You've failed to do so. In fact, a search of the Cochrane webpage -
using both google and their internal search engine - found no references
at all to Fombonne.

And even if Miller did write the letter, and even if the Chocrane study
exists, is still amounts to nothing. The reason is simple, none of the
material is about the study in question - as in the new study out of
Quebec demonstrating no link between autism and mercury in vaccinations.
I've noticed that every time you've been challenged to explain those
results you've dodged the question. . .

Quote:

I expect you to withdraw your accusation of me making up the letter.

As soon as you prove you didn't write it. But as I pointed out above,
just because someone with that name exists doesn't mean he wrote it.

john wrote:
That letter has a link to Millers web site, he is a lawyer
(Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England
Civil Proceedings), but you prefer to slander me instead of using your
finger to click your mouse

Firstly, that doesn't even come close to verifying that the letter came
from him. Just because his name is on a webpage you wrote in no way,
shape or form proves that he wrote it. I could sign this e-mail as "the
pope", but that doesn't mean he wrote it.

Secondly, you've not even come close to proving the accuracy of this
letter. Aside from the questionable authorship, I also asked for proof
that the PDF you linked the letter to came from the Cochrane group.
You've failed to do so. In fact, a search of the Cochrane webpage -
using both google and their internal search engine - found no references
at all to Fombonne.

And even if Miller did write the letter, and even if the Chocrane study
exists, is still amounts to nothing. The reason is simple, none of the
material is about the study in question - as in the new study out of
Quebec demonstrating no link between autism and mercury in vaccinations.
I've noticed that every time you've been challenged to explain those
results you've dodged the question. . .

I expect you to withdraw your accusation of me making up the letter.

As soon as you prove you didn't write it. But as I pointed out above,
just because someone with that name exists doesn't mean he wrote it.

Bryan, I suspect that in this very rare circumstance, John is correct.

I will be having a flu shot this week. I will not ask the doctor
whether it contains thimerosal or not, because I simply don't care and
I know that it can't harm me. I might even have a tetanus booster on
the same day. And have a tuna sandwich for lunch.

Mercurial Peter, that explains it!

"According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world's leading immunogeneticist and
13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review
journals),

Incorrect!

PubMed finds:

Items 1 - 20 of 679

of which only 6 were clinical trials.

if an individual has had five consecutive flu shots between 1970

Quote:

and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease
is ten times higher than if they had one, two or no shots. I asked Dr.
Fudenberg why this was so and he said it was due to the mercury and aluminum
that is in every flu shot (and most childhood shots). The gradual mercury
and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction. Is that why
Alzheimer's is expected to quadruple? Notes: Recorded from Dr. Fudenberg's
speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA
September, 1997. Quoted with permission. Alzheimer's to quadruple statement
is from John's Hopkins Newsletter Nov 1998."

That's right, Jan. The big lie about the danger of mercury in vaccines
is told again. Do you ever read what you post? Just in case you didn't
read this one, here is a summary.

The following vaccines contain a measurable mount of thimerosal:

DTwP - Someone might like to tell me where this is still used
anywhere.

Exactly. All the standard vaccines that still contain thimerosal are
not the ones routinely given to children, with the partial exception
of flu vaccine. Jan, of course, claims I'm lying when I'm not, but
that's standard for Jan, who is totally nuts at this point and shows
no signs of improvement.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

I will be having a flu shot this week. I will not ask the doctor
whether it contains thimerosal or not, because I simply don't care and
I know that it can't harm me. I might even have a tetanus booster on
the same day. And have a tuna sandwich for lunch.

Mercurial Peter, that explains it!

"According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world's leading immunogeneticist and
13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review
journals), if an individual has had five consecutive flu shots between 1970
and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease
is ten times higher than if they had one, two or no shots.

There is, however, absolutely no reason to believe that Fudenberg was
right about this, since he has never published anything about it and
there is nothing in the literature that even remotely backs up the
assertion.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

john wrote:
That letter has a link to Millers web site, he is a lawyer
(Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England
Civil Proceedings), but you prefer to slander me instead of using your
finger to click your mouse

Firstly, that doesn't even come close to verifying that the letter came
from him. Just because his name is on a webpage you wrote in no way,
shape or form proves that he wrote it. I could sign this e-mail as "the
pope", but that doesn't mean he wrote it.

Secondly, you've not even come close to proving the accuracy of this
letter. Aside from the questionable authorship, I also asked for proof
that the PDF you linked the letter to came from the Cochrane group. You've
failed to do so. In fact, a search of the Cochrane webpage - using both
google and their internal search engine - found no references at all to
Fombonne.

LOL!!! From one who claims to have a Ph.d.

Results 1 - 10 of about 121,000 for Fombonne. (0.31 seconds)

Quote:

And even if Miller did write the letter, and even if the Chocrane study
exists, is still amounts to nothing. The reason is simple, none of the
material is about the study in question - as in the new study out of
Quebec demonstrating no link between autism and mercury in vaccinations.
I've noticed that every time you've been challenged to explain those
results you've dodged the question. . .

I expect you to withdraw your accusation of me making up the letter.

As soon as you prove you didn't write it. But as I pointed out above,
just because someone with that name exists doesn't mean he wrote it.

john wrote:
That letter has a link to Millers web site, he is a lawyer
(Solicitor-Advocate of the Supreme Court of England
Civil Proceedings), but you prefer to slander me instead of using your
finger to click your mouse

Firstly, that doesn't even come close to verifying that the letter came
from him. Just because his name is on a webpage you wrote in no way,
shape or form proves that he wrote it. I could sign this e-mail as "the
pope", but that doesn't mean he wrote it.

Secondly, you've not even come close to proving the accuracy of this
letter. Aside from the questionable authorship, I also asked for proof
that the PDF you linked the letter to came from the Cochrane group. You've
failed to do so. In fact, a search of the Cochrane webpage - using both
google and their internal search engine - found no references at all to
Fombonne.

LOL!!! From one who claims to have a Ph.d.

Results 1 - 10 of about 121,000 for Fombonne. (0.31 seconds)

Jan, you utter fool. He said "a search of the Cochrane webpage".

Is there no end to your stupidity?

Quote:

And even if Miller did write the letter, and even if the Chocrane study
exists, is still amounts to nothing. The reason is simple, none of the
material is about the study in question - as in the new study out of
Quebec demonstrating no link between autism and mercury in vaccinations.
I've noticed that every time you've been challenged to explain those
results you've dodged the question. . .

I expect you to withdraw your accusation of me making up the letter.

As soon as you prove you didn't write it. But as I pointed out above,
just because someone with that name exists doesn't mean he wrote it.