On 2/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:>On 2/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>>Guys, I'm probably going to get viciously trolled for be a paranoid feminist,>>but do you think you'd be talking about them like this if they were guys?>> Making jokes about phone numbers, photos, commenting on their physical>>appearance? No matter how obnoxious they are to camp next to, it's almost>>as unacceptable as pulling out a mallet on obnoxious campers and it does>>affect all the other women in the community to hear jokes and abuse like>>that.>>Yes. Yes. Yes. No. and the same goes for men.

Totally agree Mr Oslabofvic. Given how the situation was initially described, I don't think any of the comments are particularly sexist. I could totally imagine many women making exactly the same joke, 'Did you get their number?' if someone had described a bunch of unattractive bogan males keeping everyone awake with talk about sex.

We've had the same sort of experience the last two times we've been camping. At Glenbrook in the Blue Mountains we had a group camp next to us, break out the ghetto blaster, and start cranking out the music. When it switched to rap (really filthy rap) I fronted them and asked them to switch it off as I had kids with me - and they had the grace to change the music, if not turn it off. At Glenbrook there is a ranger, who made them turn it off at 10pm, but much of the night was spoiled by their music.

And this Easter at the Wolgan, there were huge groups of people getting slaughtered on alcohol and shouting and carrying on until 2-4am most nights - no rangers there, and I wasn't up for tackling them.

I don't think its just that I'm getting old, I've never enjoyed loud music in the bush, and would feel mortified if I was affecting someone else's peace & quiet while camping. Not sure that there is much you can do about it, except avoid the more popular campsites at public holidays, and go real bush.

I once had to camp next to the most boring man in the universe. He had a loud booming voice, not a raised voice, just someone who naturally uses all of his respiratory sytem in making volcal sounds. But what was worse, was that his topics of conversation were so deathly boring that I contemplated suicide.

He spoke in a monotone monologue that went on for hours with no-one else in his party able to get a word in edgwise.

No one played music, or got slaughtered drunk, or obnoxious, and there was no other sound as all the birds and insects had flown away due to the relentless boring onslaught of this fellow.

I suffered a skin rash for several weeks and a permenant brain injury from the experience.

You wouldn't want your children to hear this fellow, just in case they took him to be some kind of role model and began speaking like him. You would have to divorce them if they did.

Stars fell from the sky, all the local vegetation wilted, and the top soil dried up and blew away rather than listen to this bloke.

One of the reasons Moonarie is my favourite cliff is that even if you get a 'crowd' people tend to be pretty quiet and respectful, like they've gone there to climb not party. And after slogging up to the main cliffs and back each day nobody has the energy to party all night anyway. Just had another great Easter up there. Pine Crack, Expiry Date and Ape and Away were three popular climbs amongst others on the weekend.

I hate hearing other peoples' music when I'm camping. Always have. I usually take my own and have a small set of ipod speakers, but I assume that most people are camping to get away from it all (including getting away from other people). So they shouldn't have to listen to my music.

On 3/04/2013 simey wrote:>On 2/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:>>On 2/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>>>Guys, I'm probably going to get viciously trolled for be a paranoid>feminist,>>>but do you think you'd be talking about them like this if they were>guys?>>> Making jokes about phone numbers, photos, commenting on their physical>>>appearance? No matter how obnoxious they are to camp next to, it's>almost>>>as unacceptable as pulling out a mallet on obnoxious campers and it>does>>>affect all the other women in the community to hear jokes and abuse>like>>>that.>>>>Yes. Yes. Yes. No. and the same goes for men.>>Totally agree Mr Oslabofvic. Given how the situation was initially described,>I don't think any of the comments are particularly sexist. I could totally>imagine many women making exactly the same joke, 'Did you get their number?'>if someone had described a bunch of unattractive bogan males keeping everyone>awake with talk about sex.>
Oh bollocks to both of you ... where in the pages of abuse about camping near CJ did anyone make any comments about his physical attractiveness or otherwise, or his pickupability? In fact, where in any other thread about obnoxious campers (and there have been a few), are there references to the perpetrators' sexual attractions or not or possibility of them being sexually available? The lack of awareness of this sort of stuff by many people continues to amaze me. What it reinforces to women is no matter what they do, even when their actual behaviour is the problem, they will be judged upon their appearance and sexuality and that is what people will target when they have a go at them. These are the areas women are seen as vulnerable in. I don't think that's necessarily what people intended, but it is certainly a side effect.

I'm too lazy, jaded, or something (actually, it's one of the first two) to make any extensive arguments about sexism, but Wendy's right. 'Normal' background level sexism, rather than anythin unusual, but maybe that's worse.

On 3/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:>I once had to camp next to the most boring man in the universe. He had>a loud booming voice, not a raised voice, just someone who naturally uses>all of his respiratory sytem in making volcal sounds. But what was worse,>was that his topics of conversation were so deathly boring that I contemplated>suicide. >>He spoke in a monotone monologue that went on for hours with no-one else>in his party able to get a word in edgwise.>>No one played music, or got slaughtered drunk, or obnoxious, and there>was no other sound as all the birds and insects had flown away due to the>relentless boring onslaught of this fellow.>>I suffered a skin rash for several weeks and a permenant brain injury>from the experience.>>You wouldn't want your children to hear this fellow, just in case they>took him to be some kind of role model and began speaking like him. You>would have to divorce them if they did.>>Stars fell from the sky, all the local vegetation wilted, and the top>soil dried up and blew away rather than listen to this bloke.>>It was truely terrible.

On 3/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>On 3/04/2013 simey wrote:>>On 2/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:>>>On 2/04/2013 Wendy wrote:>>>>Guys, I'm probably going to get viciously trolled for be a paranoid>>feminist,>>>>but do you think you'd be talking about them like this if they were>>guys?>>>> Making jokes about phone numbers, photos, commenting on their physical>>>>appearance? No matter how obnoxious they are to camp next to, it's>>almost>>>>as unacceptable as pulling out a mallet on obnoxious campers and it>>does>>>>affect all the other women in the community to hear jokes and abuse>>like>>>>that.>>>>>>Yes. Yes. Yes. No. and the same goes for men.>>>>Totally agree Mr Oslabofvic. Given how the situation was initially described,>>I don't think any of the comments are particularly sexist. I could totally>>imagine many women making exactly the same joke, 'Did you get their number?'>>if someone had described a bunch of unattractive bogan males keeping>everyone>>awake with talk about sex.>>>Oh bollocks to both of you ... where in the pages of abuse about camping>near CJ did anyone make any comments about his physical attractiveness>or otherwise, or his pickupability? In fact, where in any other thread>about obnoxious campers (and there have been a few), are there references>to the perpetrators' sexual attractions or not or possibility of them being>sexually available? The lack of awareness of this sort of stuff by many>people continues to amaze me. What it reinforces to women is no matter>what they do, even when their actual behaviour is the problem, they will>be judged upon their appearance and sexuality and that is what people will>target when they have a go at them. These are the areas women are seen>as vulnerable in. I don't think that's necessarily what people intended,>but it is certainly a side effect.

Wendy, I really reckoned you have missed the point of the original post and you are trying to make comparisons to other situations which are really quite different. My understanding is that one of the offensive campers was loudly proclaiming their sexual prowess with other women. The subsequent jokes are relevant to the situation described. I reckon you are being a paranoid feminist.

So Easter at Arapiles was loud.. Somewhat rock n roll .. with loud, crasse and 'in ya face' characters.. Welcome to the future of Araps .. It's only going to grow? (In its festival status) For some (those with out kids) you can climb until you're exhausted & collapse into bomb proofe sleep.. Or camp down the front or out near the far northern group..
On another note .. We were one of three climbing groups at frogs buttress this Easter... Did all of Queensland decide to go to Araps this Easter or what?

Actually I would say the numbers at Araps this year and in recent years have been down slightly compared to years gone by. The number of climbing areas within Australia (and worldwide) has increased and many people would rather go sport climbing or bouldering elsewhere than visit Araps.

As for all the stories of Arapiles at Easter being full of loud and obnoxious types, I would say it is the exception rather than the rule. I remember being out at Arapiles at Easter a few years ago and virtually the entire campground were in bed before midnight and it was totally silent. I couldn't believe it. I was starting to think all climbers had turned into boring wusses.

On 3/04/2013 simey wrote:>Actually I would say the numbers at Araps this year and in recent years>have been down slightly compared to years gone by. The number of climbing>areas within Australia (and worldwide) has increased and many people would>rather go sport climbing or bouldering elsewhere than visit Araps.

Yep I've noticed this as well. I think the interest in the Grampians has increased substantially recently.

As for this kind of behaviour, you always expect to come across it as some point or another at araps but I guess in the past this has usually been confined to the pines with the gums and northern grounds being ideal for families and those seeking a quieter spot.

>>Wendy, I really reckoned you have missed the point of the original post>and you are trying to make comparisons to other situations which are really>quite different. My understanding is that one of the offensive campers>was loudly proclaiming their sexual prowess with other women. The subsequent>jokes are relevant to the situation described. I reckon you are being a>paranoid feminist.>>
What, proclaiming sexual prowess with women somehow lead to phone numbers and physical appearance? You mean it's actually all related to stereotypical male fascination with lesbians and either wanting to watch, take part or convert? You aren't doing your case a lot of favours there.

Basically, i read the thread over a couple of times, and I was uncomfortable with the direction of some of it. I don't think where it went is unrelated to the sex of the offenders and I think these sorts of jokes and comments are made frequently, without anyone consciously intending to be sexist, but in a world where men and women are judged differently on the basis of appearance and sexual behaviour, they are. Maybe if you'd been on the other end of these standards your entire life, you'd be a little more uncomfortable about them too.

>What, proclaiming sexual prowess with women somehow lead to phone numbers>and physical appearance? You mean it's actually all related to stereotypical>male fascination with lesbians and either wanting to watch, take part or>convert? You aren't doing your case a lot of favours there.

You are exactly right. The whole notion of male fascination with lesbians (whether it exists or not) was the trend of the joke. You have chosen to interpret it the way you have, but I saw the humour as ridiculing guys more than anything.

>Basically, i read the thread over a couple of times, and I was uncomfortable>with the direction of some of it. I don't think where it went is unrelated>to the sex of the offenders and I think these sorts of jokes and comments>are made frequently, without anyone consciously intending to be sexist,>but in a world where men and women are judged differently on the basis>of appearance and sexual behaviour, they are. Maybe if you'd been on the>other end of these standards your entire life, you'd be a little more uncomfortable>about them too.

I'm uncomfortable too if I see or read things with sexist overtones towards women, but I don't see this as an example of sexism. The implied humour is that guys are so desperate for sex that no matter how undesirable the described people might be, they still spark our interest.

Nearly every time I have been camping there have been noisy people. Even once I was told off for being noisy at 6am. Maybe it is just par for the course.
Looking back, we had a great time this Easter and the memories of the climbing we did are wonderful. A few noisy girls didn't spoil the whole experience. Already planning the next trip.

What is it with morning people thinking that they have some kind of priority? I reckon 3am is roughly the middle of the night. Your 6am hex clanking is as offensive to me as my midnight partying is to you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for alpine starts when appropriate. However, arapiles is predominantly east facing and for most of the year the best time of day to climb is the couple of hours up to sunset. Therefore the most sensible climbing schedule is achieved by getting up mid morning, farting round camp till the rock gets shady, then climbing all arvo till the light goes. Of course, in summer this leads to dinner at 10, followed by beers, singing, and talking shit till 2 in the morning.

You have to adapt to local conditions. The onus is on the people out of step with the norm to make sure they aren't causing problems.

>You have to adapt to local conditions. The onus is on the people out of>step with the norm to make sure they aren't causing problems.

so you should be encouraged to harass women endlessly when travelling in Morocco, throw acid in their faces should they 'dishonour' you in India, & take issue with anyone looking like a migrant when surfing at Bondi? No, the onus is on each one of us to establish what is the right thing to do according to our individual values & beliefs. If our actions are out of step with the norm, it's up to us to decide how committed we are to these values & beliefs & what we're prepared to sacrifice for them.