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I again never said a coach couldn't impact a team's D. We are talking about champions and more specifically, what can most profoundly....readily...and likely shape a team into the defensive stuff to be title-worthy.

This last post shows, again, in wonderful illustration something that is true....but doesn't have much to do with MDA or my prior post to your one before. It proves a point, and a good point, but doesn't prove the point (or at least the one that this thread was designed to prove).
It shows that a great defensive coach on a good team can make a big defensive impact on the team.

That was the exact point I was trying to make with the last post. The Knicks are a good team, and adding an excellent defensive coach will make a marked improvement.

My original posts shows that you need a great defensive team to stand a good chance at winning a ring.

The last time I checked, we were 21st in the league defensively. If Tom could raise a team ten spots with essentially the same core group from the year before in the Bulls, then it stands to show he could do something similar with the Knicks. Mind you, you also have to consider the original position from where he raised the Bulls, too. He went from 11 to 1. Meaning he made them such a great defensive team that they surpassed other great defensive teams. It would be much more easy, say, to raise a 30 to 20, because those teams don't play defense at all. The closer you get to the front of the pack the more difficult it will become.

I don't think you'd disagree that (and judging my your reply to Red's post -- you don't) the coaches "win" philosophy has a direct relation to the type of players a GM tries to get him.

More of a reason, in my opinion, to get rid of MDA sooner than later.

Thibs shows (re above) that he can make a team elite. Boozer of course helps, but really their defense didn't improve by 10 spots just because of players -- especially when you consider their core starting line-up may have actually worsened on an individual defensive side with the addition of Boozer. Thibs strategies made each of his players better defenders. We need a coach like that. More importantly, with Melo and Amar'e, who have shown little defensive tendencies, we must pray for a coach like that.

I will never say players don't matter. The obviously do. But everything falls back to the coach.

I think we have a core group of guys that are those "great players" you wanted. I would like "two-way" guys (sounds dirty) as you suggested, but when we had something similar to that in Corey Brewer, he didn't play. Even more reason to get a new coach. Again, the coaches strategies goes to the type of players we acquire. Walsh got players that matched D'Antoni's style of play -- that is until this trade, where you don't pass up on a superstar like Melo. Now you see D'Antoni frustrated in that he doesn't have the players that match his offense and looks a bit lost out there. He is a one dimensional coach in this respect.

Right now, we need a coach that can teach team defense to two guys that don't really play it (because like it or not they are here to stay). We need a coach that will accept defensive/offensive hybrid players. Though, yes, players matter... ultimately it falls back to the coach and how he prefers to play basketball. If we give MDA another year, another offseason, which we may have to; who knows what will happen... what kind of long term contracts will we give out to players who will not match a more defensive minded coaches approach, should one such coach eventually come along?

I half disagree with RED that MDA made the Knicks relevant again. Yes in that he was a coach that gave some offensive prowess to a team that had Amar'e... but, truly, I think Donnie Walsh made them relevant again. He got rid of bad contracts to get a free agent in Amar'e. The freed cap space brought in some great guys, and then we get Melo. That is Walsh, not D'Antoni, IMO.

The biggest question is, did any of the championship teams have a sophmore pg, a rookie sg, and no centre?

the team only had 1 practice together.they are learning on the fly.

The point of this thread Toons is that a complete team (one that can win a ring) requires defense in the top 10. We need a coach that isn't going to build a team like the one in PHX to accomplish this. A change in coach will lead to a more complete team... through different defensive and offensive strategies and thus eventually different type of players to accomplish those strategies.

And again, I'm not judging MDA on the team he has now. I'm judging him on the entirety of his career. He has never had a team in the top 10 defensively... We are 21 or worse at this point in the league... One center (unless it is D. Howard) is not going to change this by itself.

ok, i understand your points, but in 95% of our losses, we are outrebounded by 8 or more. We get killed on the offensive glass. In a game of speedball, possessions trumps defense....ONLY...if we can rebound. I dont know why, call me crazy, but i honestly feel that with a defensive minded centre, it can change the whole outlook of the team.

Aand the point before, if the coach calls the shots on players, which im not sure of....then yeah, new coach. if dantoni is stopping us from gettin a centre, he has to go.

I was looking at MDAs rosters at Phoenix. You guys do realize all this talk about getting a big that eats up space, rebounds and plays defense is probably moot. That just isnt MDAs cup of tea. He ran STAT in the ground for 3-4 years before getting Shaq who he didnt want at all. He'd rather play a Jared Jefferies type player that can shoot. Dont be surprised when we dont sign any of the bigs we're all clamoring for...

You cant blame MDA for our rebounding problems either. PHX ranked in the high 20's before MDA took over. After MDA? They always ranked as a top 10 rebounding team. They just never had the players to play defense because Nash is horrible & Amare was trash on D back then. They never had a Center either. Until Shaq his final season. Give this man a Center & then you can judge him. Bottom line is he turned this franchise around. We're heading to the playoffs & it's not right to run him outta town before seeing how NY does in the playoffs.

You cant blame MDA for our rebounding problems either. PHX ranked in the high 20's before MDA took over. After MDA? They always ranked as a top 10 rebounding team. They just never had the players to play defense because Nash is horrible & Amare was trash on D back then. They never had a Center either. Until Shaq his final season. Give this man a Center & then you can judge him. Bottom line is he turned this franchise around. We're heading to the playoffs & it's not right to run him outta town before seeing how NY does in the playoffs.

I was looking at MDAs rosters at Phoenix. You guys do realize all this talk about getting a big that eats up space, rebounds and plays defense is probably moot. That just isnt MDAs cup of tea. He ran STAT in the ground for 3-4 years before getting Shaq who he didnt want at all. He'd rather play a Jared Jefferies type player that can shoot. Dont be surprised when we dont sign any of the bigs we're all clamoring for...

That is the impression I have been under as well. MDA likes playing small lineups where his 5 can run and shoot and has always had teams with these type of players besides the 1 year he had Shaq, which he didnt want him and it was a total failure.

I do want him to atleast finish out the season and give him a chance to show some flashes that this team can compete on D on a more consistent level with their effort, but I truley dont see this happening.

This thread was a thread well put together. Credit to the OP, but this thread is nothing more than a moot point. When was the last time NY finished with a top 10 D'? Thats a stat I'd like to see; just to prove that our D' has been horrible way before MDA ever arrived. When MDA took this job not even 3 years ago... NY was an NBA laughing stock. In 2008... No coach in the world could have formed a top 10 D' with that "roster. Last year in 09, MDA, or any other coach for that matter could have never forced a top 10 D'. Never. Impossible. When MDA took the job... He was forced to work with a roster & franchise that was in deep cap hell. No chance. MDA was forced to turn over & scrap the entire team... & thats exactly what he did. He's played over 30 different starters in less than 3 years. Guys such as Randolph may have slid through the cracks but he made sure young talents such as Fields & Douglas stuck. He developed guys like Mozgov, Chandler & Gallo which were all used to land an elite star. Never had a chance

This thread was a thread well put together. Credit to the OP, but this thread is nothing more than a moot point. When was the last time NY finished with a top 10 D'? Thats a stat I'd like to see; just to prove that our D' has been horrible way before MDA ever arrived. When MDA took this job not even 3 years ago... NY was an NBA laughing stock. In 2008... No coach in the world could have formed a top 10 D' with that "roster. Last year in 09, MDA, or any other coach for that matter could have never forced a top 10 D'. Never. Impossible. When MDA took the job... He was forced to work with a roster & franchise that was in deep cap hell. No chance. MDA was forced to turn over & scrap the entire team... & thats exactly what he did. He's played over 30 different starters in less than 3 years. Guys such as Randolph may have slid through the cracks but he made sure young talents such as Fields & Douglas stuck. He developed guys like Mozgov, Chandler & Gallo which were all used to land an elite star. Never had a chance

Are you just copying and pasting your old posts? What would you suggest, we never try to get better at defense? I mean.We haven't been top ten in defense since the Ewing days... so why should we ever try, right? It's impossible...

I'm just saying... MDA isn't the reason why we haven't had a top 10 D. The Center position is.

Since you know oh so much about defense... Please... Explain in your own words how in 08 & 09, with the cap hell rosters that MDA had... How he could have formed top 10 D's.

I'll continue to wait Musk... Because that post will never come. Admit the truth; MDA has never had a chance in hell to form a top 10 D with NY.

We all know Duncan & KG were both amazing defensive (and offensive) PF's... But since your talking about the past 15 championships... Care to list who those BIG MEN @ the Center position were? Because I have no problem listing some of the scrub C's MDA's been forced to work with.

Curry.
Darko.
Mozgov.
Turiaf.
Randolph.
JJ.

He's never had a CHANCE to land a legit-true Center. Never. This offseason will become MDA's first chance @ landing a true center.

I'm just saying... MDA isn't the reason why we haven't had a top 10 D. The Center position is.

Since you know oh so much about defense... Please... Explain in your own words how in 08 & 09, with the cap hell rosters that MDA had... How he could have formed top 10 D's.

I'll continue to wait Musk... Because that post will never come. Admit the truth; MDA has never had a chance in hell to form a top 10 D with NY.

We all know Duncan & KG were both amazing defensive (and offensive) PF's... But since your talking about the past 15 championships... Care to list who those BIG MEN @ the Center position were? Because I have no problem listing some of the scrub C's MDA's been forced to work with.

Curry.
Darko.
Mozgov.
Turiaf.
Randolph.
JJ.

He's never had a CHANCE to land a legit-true Center. Never. This offseason will become MDA's first chance @ landing a true center.

You watch these games and you have rose colored glasses on. That's cool. I understand. It's, IMO, a bit naive, but I understand. You don't need a true center to have some kind of defensive strategy. MDA is and always has been our problem.

How is it that you can see stats where every single player who comes to his team ends up having worse defensive stats than their previous years, and then still try to deny the hard numbers right before your eyes. How come you can see Noah's defensive stats raise, Rose's stats defensive stats raise, despite having the same team as last year and still live in a state of denial?

It is the duty of a GM to make a team better. If it were up to you, Vinnie Del Negro would still be coaching the Bulls and they wouldn't be an elite team in the East. The Knicks need a better defensive coach to make them a better team.

How can you look at the loss tonight where we let up 119 points to the frigging Pacers and suggest we don't need to be better defensively -- or at least make an active effort to do something better defensively???? A new coach is the best bet we have at this point.