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People who have it, can recognize it. It's true that egos get involved and folks have a stake in their own styles or systems... but that's one of the things that makes someone like O-Sensei or Takeda Sensei really special; pretty much everyone who met them seemed to agree that they were "special".

I dunno... the older I get, the less I believe anything that I haven't seen and felt myself. Over the years, a number of "godlike figures" I always held up as 'more than human' have turned out to be more like "pretty good" than "godlike". What happens is that most of the good press for someone is put out by the adherents of a certain style. Given enough time and experience in the martial arts, a bigger and more enlightening picture usually develops.

The way I finally resolved it in my head was to realize that if any particular style/art was truly the undisputed cat's-meow, everyone else would have quit their own practice and the style/art in question would be dominant, if not the only game in town. Since that has never happened, either everyone else was dumb or there's more to the pro's and con's than we're getting through the press. And to stop the obvious gambit, all the styles have philosophies attached.

Mike wrote -
<<The way I finally resolved it in my head was to realize that if any particular style/art was truly the undisputed cat's-meow, everyone else would have quit their own practice and the style/art in question would be dominant, if not the only game in town. Since that has never happened, either everyone else was dumb or there's more to the pro's and con's than we're getting through the press.>>

If being able to defend myself or beat somebody up were my main concern (maybe years ago), I wouldn't be practicing any martial art. I'd rely solely on 1911. Close to 100 years of history and very widely copied and popular. But unfortunately for my wallet and time (and probably some other ukes/nages), I love aikido.

Mike wrote -
<<The way I finally resolved it in my head was to realize that if any particular style/art was truly the undisputed cat's-meow, everyone else would have quit their own practice and the style/art in question would be dominant, if not the only game in town. Since that has never happened, either everyone else was dumb or there's more to the pro's and con's than we're getting through the press.>>

If being able to defend myself or beat somebody up were my main concern (maybe years ago), I wouldn't be practicing any martial art. I'd rely solely on 1911. Close to 100 years of history and very widely copied and popular. But unfortunately for my wallet and time (and probably some other ukes/nages), I love aikido.

Well, I was trying to make it clear that I wasn't just referring to martial effectiveness. There is also, in almost all other arts, health, strength, philosophy, etc., and even in all those I think you'll find similarities that make it difficult to say that any one way is "best". It's what you make of it..... not which legends or legendary people inspired you through <<probably incomplete>> hearsay and reading.

As someone who knows the man in question (Ljubomir Vracarevic) I can clear few things... I never trained with him but I did met him and watched him teach... also a very good friend of mine, who holds the rank of Nidan in real Aikido, trained with him for over 15 years so he knows him even better...

Vracarevic was introduced to Aikido by Hiroshi Tada, I am not sure when, but my guess is mid 70'... before that he trained Judo and was a black belt... he also trained Aikido in Yoshinkan Honbu Dojo and was very influenced by Yoshinkan style...

He got 4th or 5th Dan by, either, Aikikai or Yoshinkan (not sure here) but the ones after are self appointed... he got 10th Dan by some 'bogus' martial arts & body guard association from the USA...

Now, that said he is really, really good... his technique is excellent and he is also very good instructor and although discipline is somewhat loose, on the mat he keeps it all very strict but fair... he likes to see people 'going at it' but he would never let someone be a bully...

He did a lot to grow Aikido in Serbia, he, through his Government connections, opened dozens and dozens of Dojos in elementary schools in Serbia... I can safely say that more people know of Aikido in Serbia that anybody would expect...

He had a colorful past and he was self defense instructor for Russian, Libyan, Serbian and few other Police Forces and Special Units... there were also some stories about him and some shady people but that's nor here nor there... he is in a way a Balkan version of Steven Seagal...

The style is hard, very similar to Yoshinkan and has no spiritual side to it... don't look for spiritual guidance, natural balance or Chi in Real Aikido... they practice very hard and tough and they do lot of self defense and protection from knife and gun attacks...

In some sense it is not unlike Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where they took original Japanese art and adapted it to the place and people where they teach it...

Note about the name: Proper translation should be ‘Realistic' meaning the one you would use in the realistic situation for self defense... street attack or something like that...

Hmm, what involvement (if any) did he have during the war there (Balkan war)?

As far as I know he had no involvement in the war... I could be wrong off course but to best of my knowledge (and few people that I asked) he was not involved... that said there might be some people who trained at his Dojo who were involved...

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:

Is he the gentleman who took a certificate given to everyone who attended an open seminar and tried to turn it into a "shihan" certification from the yoshinkan?

I never saw any of his certificates so I cannot be sure but, I think that, you might be right on that one...

This is why O-Sensei, and the folks that trained with him before the War, tend to do that strike at the end of technique. It is the symbolic finishing blow. In real combat it would be a weapon, just as most of our strikes are stylized weapons techniques.

Rather than see what is clearly a strike and then try to square that with some simplistic view of O-Sensei's views on peace and harmony, which in the West are based on a very simplistic presentation of his ideas (largely put together by Arikawa, Osawa, and the Nidai Doshu for post war Western consumption), why don't we try to see what is really there and reassess what we thought we knew about how O-Sensei thought about these ideas.

I have a very hard time with the folks who water down what we are doing to fit their own pre-conceptions. It's a strike. It's a strike done after the control is applied. It's there in many films of the Founder and it's there in the styles of Aikido which were started by people who had done their training primarily with him (as opposed to the post-war students who trained with a variety of teachers as well as the Founder). Why not rethink your own ideas rather than ignore what is clearly there.

This is very much like the folks that decide to call their bokken a "stick" because they think the sword is violent. I know teachers of the art who do that. Well, it's a sword. It may be a "practice" sword but it is still meant to be a sword. If you start thinking of it as a "stick" you lose almost all the benefit of practicing with the weapon. It's a sword and it is a weapon.... now how do you square that with O-Sensei's spiritual and philosophical views?

George,
Thank you very much for this explanation. If you would, could you please elaborate more on this? Specifically, what was "watered down" by Akiwari, Osawa and Nidai Doshu? Was this after O Sensei's death? I don't know much about O Sensei, Omoto Kyo, or the Japanese conotations of what we translate as "harmony". I need to learn more about this. I do know that the way many American and Western Aikidoka discuss "harmony" and "love" as it relates to Aikido make it a wierd hybrid of Kantian and Christian concepts. I do know that, canonical stories of O Sensei wearing out the Japanese officer in the duel notwithstanding, there are very few practitioners who can respond to a life-threatening attack without hurting the attacker or allowing themselves to be hurt. And I do not believe that Aikido, as it was established by O Sensei, poses a moral or philosophical obligation towards innefective (suicidal) self-defense until one can reach this level. Simply put, you hit someone in a pin because otherwise he will get up and attack you again while your dealing with his friend coming around the corner.

We can't have it both ways. We can't defend the very real martial aspects of Aikido against critics who scoff at it's efficacy, and then imply a categorical prohibition in Aikido against any action which might harm "uke". The "aiki-bunny" stereotype is just that- a blanket statement that perpetuates gross inaccuracies. Yet most stereotypes come from somewhere.

Finally, I haven't trained with Serbs. I do know that Serbian Americans seem to be well represented in Chicago martial arts. I have trained with several Poles, and I think that those who imply that there is some cultural differences between Eastern Europe and Western Europe and America. The Poles I have trained with have all had a very sceptical, anti-traditional and macho attitude toward the martial arts. I notice ( and again, I'm not saying in all or even most cases. See what I just wrote above about stereotypes) that Eastern Europeans (and many Americans) do not look for immersion into the culture of a martial art, but instead "cherry-pick" what they in their view is "street effective". This attitude leads people to say that thier art is "realistic", implying that others aren't.

Stanley quoted George:
<<I have a very hard time with the folks who water down what we are doing to fit their own pre-conceptions. It's a strike. It's a strike done after the control is applied. It's there in many films of the Founder and it's there in the styles of Aikido which were started by people who had done their training primarily with him (as opposed to the post-war students who trained with a variety of teachers as well as the Founder). Why not rethink your own ideas rather than ignore what is clearly there.>>

Not sure if this is what's meant by water down. At some point its not important to me (arguments about what someone is doing - ask them directly if it matters) what the Founder (or insert high ranking person) intended to do with a technique. At the beginning/learning stage, it helps to know the intent. But once one can relax and the technique comes without thinking (no technique), I believe he should make it his own (no) technique. Wouldn't the great philosopher/martial artist Bruce Lee agree? "Be water my friend"
Could just be my Western attitude, though. Or daoist. Boy this is a confusing world.

You lot sound like a bunch of prep school snobs, whether a guy has a pink and green polkadot belt, of 99th dan, or whether he is directly related to this or that is IRRELEVENT.
If he does have somthing positive to contribute, whether to your taste or not, then seek him out and experience it first hand, then and only then, will you have an informed opinion worth listening to!

If the little big man were around today, I would like to think that he would appreciate any positive efforts to enhance the training and study of Aikido. I also think that he wore all white, so as not to distract students and ego maniacs from the real message.

It's worth having your sound on to catch to sword cutting and barking dogs sound effects and the music in the intro.

This is from their website: "Real aikido is first and only Serbian ultimate fighting and self-defense martial arts. Real Aikido is efficient, widely applicable self-defense skill, derived from traditional aikido and jujitsu. The founder of Real Aikido is Grand Master Ljubomir Vracarevic, holder of the black belt, 10th Dan, professor of Real Aikido and Ju-jitsu. Thanks to his long experience acquired and improved by continuous contact with first-class Japanese masters of this skill, master Vracarevic distinguished several thousand techniques, purified them, reformed their elements, introducing in his own knowledge from other fighting skills, creating a new style Real Aikido - extremely efficient and flexible system of defense techniques. Flexibility of Real Aikido is just one of its most important characteristics. Putting together different techniques according to the real situation, maximal efficiency is achieved. Transition from one to another technique is simple, and only knowledge and skill will determine which elements someone will use. These unlimited possibilities of combining, enable multiple applies of Real Aikido."

Since I authored a "related" thread it is probably best I keep my mouth shut on this one. .
I would say the site speaks for itself. I love the blue gi.