The Exterminator clued me on to some wacky christian’s website today. You know, one of those where the writer claims to be “on a journey” when we all know she ain’t getting off her ass to go anywhere. Her journey ended the moment she bought into her book being true, and her so called travel log is merely affirmations for staying put right where she is. Well the reason why Ex brought this site up is because she used the bible as justification for voting Republican. One of the things that truly annoyed me was her view of Democrats taking her money and giving it to people who REFUSE (yes, she capped the word every time) to work. Well, the anti-gay stuff annoyed me too, as did claims that the Democrats’ plans are unConstitutional, but I chose to focus on the economy when responding to her. Now I decided to do so a bit differently. Since all these yahoos will listen to is the bible, I decided to speak to her mostly in bible-ese. Here was my response:

——————————-If the Democrats punish those who work hard while rewarding those who refuse to work, then the Republicans simply ensure no one works since their policies benefit corporations who outsource jobs or move factories and offices overseas. Democrats give tax breaks and incentives to the poor and middle class, which aside from simply being the morally superior thing to do, also is more of a guaranteed investment in the American economy since those people will spend nearly every dollar they can right here in America. Contrast that to tax breaks and incentives to wealthy individuals who routinely buy foreign products, invest in foreign exchanges, put money in foreign accounts, and are the ones owning the companies which outsource and/or buy materials and supplies from foreign sources.

Republicans like Phil Graham favor deregulation of businesses, which has lead to fiascos like Enron, Bear Stearns, IndyMac, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac, the entire mortgage and foreclosure crisis and perhaps things yet to come to light. More details can be found in this video clip. Phil Graham, who also recently claimed all our economic woes are merely psychological and those of us complaining about it are just whiners, is McCain’s economic advisor. Sadly, we can’t just put faith in the wealthy and business to do the right thing, and what’s best for America, for they show, time and time again, their sole motivating factor is self interest, and often that self interest is at the expense of others like you and me.

Now be careful citing the bible for justification of your hard heartedness and selfishness. What of those who benefit from the less fortunate and worse, claim justification for it from the word of God?

“The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.” Jeremiah 14:14

“If Moses and Samuel stand before my face in their behalf, I will not hear them” Jeremiah 15:1

“Pray thou not for this people, and do not ask mercy for them, and do not intercede with me for them, for I will not hear thee.” Jeremiah 7:16

Of course there’s that misconception of giving to those who “refuse” to work. Now it has been a convenient lie the Republicans have convinced some like you of, to ease your conscience and dissuade from rightful responsibility. First of all, there are plenty of textile workers who would like to work, but thanks to granting favored nation status to China, we no longer have a textile industry in America. And what of those who had their jobs outsourced to India? Should they move to India to work? No there are plenty of people who would not only love to work but who do in fact work, sometimes multiple jobs, and still can barely get by while those who have grow richer and fatter at their expense. Is that what passes for morality today? For justice? Is THAT what you find to be more in line with Christian teaching? What does the Bible say about helping the less fortunate?

“When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest… Leave them for the poor and the alien” Lev 19:9-10

“If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you” Leviticus 25:35

“In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.” Acts 20:35

“But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind” Luke 14:13

“Blessed is he that considerth the poor: the Lord will deliver him in time of trouble. The Lord will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.” Psalm 41:1, 2

And of course…

“Riches profit not in the day of wrath; But righteousness delivereth from death.” Proverbs 11:4

“Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked” Psalms 37:16

So beware of false prophets, of those who would convince you with lies to do that which is immoral and unChristian. Look at who stands to benefit and who stands to suffer by McCain’s and Obama’s economic plans and ask yourself what’s the right thing to do, the moral thing, the Christian thing to do? It should be clear as day to you, lest your heart be so hard as to blind you.

——————————-

So funny to have an atheist quote the bible and throw god talk back at a christian? Well yes, but I think it can be more than just a funny bit, at least in the hands of someone who truly knows the bible. If these people only listen to biblically framed arguments, then frame an argument in the bible. Seems simple and logical to me. Now if, as we all think, they aren’t really relying on the bible for truth but rather for justification to be the selfish, hateful people that they are, then you can possibly expose that. I mean, how can you disagree with the bible when you claim the bible for justification? Now they may not be so transparent about this and probably accuse you of quote mining or twisting the meanings to suit your goals, but you can throw that right back at them. How can you say YOUR reading is right and mine wrong?

Some time ago I used a bible quote to make a point against a christian in an argument, and her response was beautiful. She said (no joke), “people can make the bible say whatever they want”. Yes they can. Oh yes they can.

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Ex and I were discussing your interesting new attack. We weren’t sure if you had gone bananas, but finally agreed that you were doing exactly what you have described here. Pretty clever and it might be effective. But I sure don’t have the patience.

So what? If that's all they'll listen to, then why not use their bible to make them stop being assholes? Anyway, it may be possible to persuade them with their own book, but ultimately the effort nullifies their ability to cite that book. It doesn't even have to be as grandiose as trying to show that the bible is not a suitable book for justification. It can simply show that if you use it to justify your points, I can match you, point for point, the same damn way. That effectively nullifies their ability to use the bible, right? Well then what? Oh, I guess they'll have to try another way to justify their actions apart from the bible, and isn't that what we've been trying to accomplish for ages?

Good post and point made effectively. Nevertheless, I’m with Evo. I haven’t got the patience to quote Bible verses at people.

Besides, knowing my luck, I’d get into a quote-mining argument with someone dumb enough to think that I was trying to use the Bible as a serious source of authority for my position. I’m sure the irony of my method would be completely beyond their grasp.

The ray gun example is quite amusing Rho, but people do look to the bible for how to react to very modern things. No doubt if we had ray guns, someone would quote a passage condemning them while another would quote one praising them. There have been and will continue to be discoveries and technological innovations that, like your ray gun, will have no mention of in the bible yet there will always be people who claim they know how to respond to them because of a bible passage or two. In that way it seems one could make the bible say whatever they want.The doughnuts and broccoli bit would take some creative effort.

When someone makes that idiotic statement, I usually ask them to make the Bible say the following:

1) It is morally necessary to ray gun yourself to death before the age of 5.2) Jesus Christ never existed (from the Bible alone, now).3) Feeding doughnuts to cockroaches will make the broccoli on Jupiter grow strong and true.

Much backtracking always then ensues. Suddenly it’s “Well, OK, not ANYTHING, but lots of things”. And of course, the Bible does say lots of things – it’s pretty long. How do we know it doesn’t say those 3 things? The same way we know what anyone said, ever. Grammar, context, lexicography.

Not. That. Hard.

No doubt that poor Christian who said that to you was losing an argument, felt flummoxed and bewildered, and thus threw it out there. Shame on her, but I also know how it is to be in the middle of a steep learning curve. May the Lord teach her how to do better.

Unfortunately, all the Bible verses in the world aren’t going to make these people stop acting like assholes because most of them only pay lip service to what the Bible says, if they have any clue to begin with. Most Christians, whether they’ll admit it or not, believe what they think or have been told the Bible says and really aren’t interested in what it really says, that’s why they don’t read it. They really won’t care and will just come up with excuses when you show them that their beliefs in the Bible are simply wrong. Delusion cannot be disproven by fact.

“Delusion can not be disproved with fact”. Good one. Very true. A lot of people take offense at Dawkins use of the word “delusion”, but what else can you call it if evidence no longer matters?

I think you may get yourself caught up in meaningless arguments when you accuse “them” of not reading their bible. Many do, and they’ll just blow off your remark as – “well, he isn’t talking about ME”. The point is, it doesn’t matter whether they read it or not. If they do, they cherry pick. It’s a STORY BOOK. But they’re too deluded to accept this basic fact.

You know you “win” when polite dissenting comments get deleted. The believers have a very low tolerance for dissenting opinions or “truths” that are not stable…especially ones throw right back into their faces. Good job!

Unfortunately, that kind of win is only a personal win. You and maybe a handful of other people may know your argument, and what good is that? People who censure dissent know this, which is why they do it. In an open society, everyone is free to speak their mind. Those insecure and/or of weak positions will ALWAYS describe that as being dangerous and speak of limits or ask the timeless question, “where do we draw the line?” which is a loaded question since it presumes there is or should be one.