Quote:Originally posted by Jonus:
I don't understand something about people who don't believe in God. You must believe in God, you just deny it. Otherwise you would have killed yourself by now. If you don't believe in anything then why do you go on living?

I think the most important sentance of your question is the last one:
"If you don't believe in anything then why do you go on living?"The truth is everyone believes in something, even the philiosophers that claim not to. God isn't the only thing to believe in.

Some people believe in other people, and that is enough to go on living. Some have faith in science. Some believe in curiosity, or pleasure, or power, or love, or joy, or any number of other things.

If it is the latter, trust me, god will plague us all one way or another until we hit the grave, through people and things; for all there is no escape which is rather sad because some of us want to escape.

I wish God had minded his own business and left creation of earth and humans alone....especially me; I was doing quite fine in the world of the unliving.

As one who more likely follows the words of Buddha than Christ, I must say that there is, in my opinion, no 'world of the unliving', you were here, you are here, and you will be here, and everywhere.
You are one atom of a cosmic explosion, part of the whole.
I've been where you are emotionally (I think), and boy am I glad I stayed me in this life.
It's so short, it'll be over to begin again before we blink.
Please drop rejection of the negative and seek to embrace the positive (Gee Dr. Phil, that didn't sound trite, did it?)...
...well, it's simple, just not easy.

One thing I heard a long time ago:
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (plus, by my way of thinking, you'll just come back to deal with the same unresolved sorrow, and that'll REALLY suck if you come back as a cat or a tree- unable to put words to your pain, your best chance is right now)

Maybe I read too much into your post, if so, OOPS!But if not, just want you to know you can make it through, if not laughing, at least serene.

Quote:Originally posted by cartoon:
Does this make me think that God has made a mistake? To the contrary. He never promised a rose garden -- in this life.

I agree.

Quote:We can't see the whole picture. Heck, we can't see hardly any of it. We don't expect infants to fully comprehend why we make them do certain things and prohibit them from doing others. And God is so far above us, that the difference in wisdom between Einstein and an amoeba is indistinguishable. How then can we question our Creator?

While it's not my place to tell anyone else what to do, it would be my desire that you would seek Him and trust Him. He will show you the way -- one step at a time.

I also agree. I think this is a fundamental part of faith. Trust in God is so difficult to do during times of trouble, as you seem to be experiencing. I pray your faith never wavers and I pray things turn brighter for you.

I have no belief in a god or gods or higher being of any kind. I don't believe in an afterlife or any kind of heaven or hell.

I'm interested in the 'belief' of a god though. As this world has been fashioned out of such beliefs and I exsist in this world....And I frequently marvel at the way in which god/gods have been celebrated ie, churches, catherdrals, cities, art, literature etc over the years and the cultures that have arisen as a consequence.

But I don't believe and I have no faith.

That may all change, as a life with nothing to believe in is possibly missing the point, but I'll have to wait and see about that as I near my twilight years, when I have acquired the necessary experience to reflect upon my time on this blue spinning orb of ours.

Quote:Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
But I don't believe and I have no faith.

My belief in God can be summed up this way: Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
"This. Simple human feeling..."
We make it up as we go, and if we're comfortable with that, all is cool.
If we're not [comfortable with that], we turn to an organization to give us structure.

Sombnambulist, you're like Mal, you have belief. It need not be specifically of God right now, or even ever. But here you are...

Quote:Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
But I don't believe and I have no faith.

I have trouble believing that, everything is based on faith. Everything.

If you have no faith than you have no belief, which you also claim, but I can not see how that is possible. Do you believe you are reading words a human being has posted? Don't you at least believe you are reading words?

If you do think about how much you have to take for granted to believe that, how many levels upon levels of faith.

Quote:I have trouble believing that, everything is based on faith. Everything.

If you have no faith than you have no belief, which you also claim, but I can not see how that is possible. Do you believe you are reading words a human being has posted? Don't you at least believe you are reading words?

If you do think about how much you have to take for granted to believe that, how many levels upon levels of faith.

Faith? hehe..

It is amazing the notion, how a book of short stories writen by men gives people faith. Faith is a human condition that comes with wisdom. It doesn't have a thing to do with the short stories. There are many other books like the bible out there. Why don't you belive in them they came first?

My advice would be to stop living for something you "think or have faith" is real and live for the things you know are real. Your family, friends and the world around you that is being destroyed to print more Bibles and build more churches.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

Quote:There are many other books like the bible out there. Why don't you belive in them they came first?

Who said I believe in the Bible?

Quote:My advice would be to stop living for something you "think or have faith" is real and live for the things you know are real.

My grandmother once had a long and interesting conversation with me, in spite of the fact that I was not there.

Of course the response to that is usually, "She's old and confused." Well how about the child who has a friend no one else can see? "Kids will be kids." What about the kid at my high school who saw people no one else could? "He's just crazy."

Damn straight he was, diagnosed as such even, but that doesn't change the fact that he knew everything he was seeing was real. He could tell you straight up he wasn't crazy.

So if you accept the well known and documented fact that people can not trust their senses you don't know anything is real. You take it on faith, you take on faith that if everyone else sees what you see it is real.

You take it on faith that if you've never had a hallucination before the car in front of you on the road isn't one either. You take on faith that the buildings you walk into really exist and the people you meet are really there.

Quote:Your family, friends and the world around you that is being destroyed to print more Bibles and build more churches.

All of these are things that you take on faith. You can't prove that your family is real without base assumptions. You certainly can't prove your friends exist. As for the world around you, it is out of the question.

How exactly do I know my dog, currently playing with a chew toy that makes annoying squeaking noises, is real?

It can't be that I hear here, people hear things that are not there all the time. Certainly it isn't that I see her, she just walked out of the room, it can't be that I remember her, human memory is incredibly fallible. So how do I know that she exists?

My sister I see less often, how can I possibly know she is real? You want me to concentrate on my family, my friends, and the world around me. Am I just supposed to take their existence on faith?

I think so, if I don't what will happen? Well cause and effect is something I take on faith too, so I can't answer the question if I don't have faith. But let's assume that cause and effect does exist, and I personally take nothing on faith. I wouldn't believe my family existed, I wouldn't believe my friends existed, I wouldn't believe I existed, I wouldn't believe the world existed, and I wouldn't believe this computer existed.

More to the point I wouldn't believe that eating would keep me from starving. How long do you think I'd last?

Quote:I have trouble believing that, everything is based on faith. Everything.

If you have no faith than you have no belief, which you also claim, but I can not see how that is possible. Do you believe you are reading words a human being has posted? Don't you at least believe you are reading words?

If you do think about how much you have to take for granted to believe that, how many levels upon levels of faith.

Christhecynic.

I'm talking within the context of the question as to opinions of god.

I don't need to believe or claim faith in the words posted as I can evidently see those. This requires no act of faith or a belief that words exsist. I know they do.

The necessity to believe [in the context of god - a supposed unseen entity] demands an act of faith. Does it not? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

My stance, at present, is that I cannot believe in a percieved entity which is god because it's a human construct from a primitive time.

What that requires me to do is not have faith in god or a god, but have faith in the human construct that fashioned a god. Does that make sense? In other words if 'I' personally saw god, as many claim to have, then I too perhaps could believe. But I haven't.

Maybe, as Chrisisall is saying, I have faith that one day I may have (forgive the reference) a Road to Damascus type experience, and therefore be enlightend, but until that day I remain a non believer.

Might I just add that I'm in no way a hostile non believer. I am fully capable of respecting peoples beliefs and I would never question why another person has faith. I only don't share that faith because I have yet to reach there by my own merrits.

I don't need to believe or claim faith in the words posted as I can evidently see those. This requires no act of faith or a belief that words exsist. I know they do.

The necessity to believe [in the context of god - a supposed unseen entity] demands an act of faith. Does it not? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

My stance, at present, is that I cannot believe in a percieved entity which is god because it's a human construct from a primitive time.

Well said bro but I think he is missing that. You can't compare things that are a reality for everyone to something that isn't. It is true reality is nothing more than a perception of a truth and perceptions will vary. That is another topic all together..But to belive in God or a God requires 100% faith in something you can't and may very well never see. A book of short stories and wild takes of "other" people is all you have to go on. People will do some crazy stuff based on faith hehe. War, killing flaming anyone who doesn't belive like you do, I just don't get it..

Well normally I would have assumed that, but you were six posts down from a person who asked how one can live without belief and five posts down from a person who said belief extends far beyond god. The group listed as believers was actually atheists.

So, since you came right after belief was equated with atheism, and you separated, “I don't believe and I have no faith.” From anything related to god, I decided to keep my options open.

Quote:I don't need to believe or claim faith in the words posted as I can evidently see those.

But you are still missing my point, you can see them, so too can the kid from my high school (if he is unchanged) see the shadow people. So too could my grandmother see me when I was in another city.

You can see more or less anything it doesn’t mean it’s real.

It is evident from all that we know about people that just because you can see something does not mean it exists.

Quote:This requires no act of faith or a belief that words exsist. I know they do.

It requires a supreme act of faith, it requires the belief that what you see is real, and there isn't any strong evidence to suggest it is.

I mean we can prove, as well as science can prove anything, that people's eyes, ears, nose, sense of touch, and even sense of taste are untrustworthy. Memory is an even worse thing to go by. Just because you clearly remember looking up the word "juxsipose" yesterday doesn't mean it is a real word (it isn't, by the way, just an example I picked up a while ago.)

The belief that you are reading these words requires supreme faith, faith on a level most religious people can only dream of. Absolute faith.

Quote:In other words if 'I' personally saw god, as many claim to have, then I too perhaps could believe. But I haven't.

But one wonders if you would. If you saw god would you instantly believe in god, or would you lose some of that absolute faith you have in your senses.

I mean right now you claim that if you see something you know it is real, no faith involved, it us pure fact. If you saw god would you still believe that what you see is real, or would you think you needed a nap/psyche-evaluation?

You say that if you can evidently see something you know it exists. Would you still think that if purple elephants were flying? No drugs, no alcohol, no drowsiness or even cough medicine. Just purple elephants that you could evidently see flying.

If your answer is that you would not believe the flying purple elephants exist then that means that you can not just assume what you can see exists. That means when you see something and "know" it exists you are taking it on faith.

If your answer is yes, you would believe they exist, then please explain to me how that is not an act of faith. I mean if flying purple elephants wouldn't shake your belief what would?

-

-

I'm not trying to be hostile, and I appreciate the fact that you are not being that way.

I just can't understand how you can possibly say it doesn't take faith to believe what you see is real. I mean what can you say? "My senses are correct because my senses told me they are correct"?

I also have a problem with the old, "Other people can see it too," trick.

"I know person 1 is not a hallucination because person 2 told me," only works if person 2 is real, and how do you know that one is real? Because 3, 4 and 5 said so perhaps? What about them? In the end if you don't take individual people's existence on faith it means that you are taking an entire group of people, everyone you've ever met, and balancing their collective existence on a few initial leaps of faith.

Regardless say whatever you will in response, but I'm not planning on responding, or rather I'm planning on not responding. This is about god, not faith, you are right about that, so I'll try not to get sidetracked again.

While I appreciate the time you took to reply to my post I'm afraid to me what you've done is now take this into an area of semantics.

If we're going to move into the area of definitive meanings of words and their context within and next to each other, we're never going to further the debate.

Secondly your various hypothesis' are suited only to your conjectures. I too could do the same but we'd end up in an area of sublime surrealism, which I have to say is where I went reading your post. 'What is real?' Well it's as real as your doubting my inability to have faith I guess.

So as I understand it your initial query is:
"How can I not have faith?"
Well in the context to god, I don't because I've yet to garner the neccessary 'experiences' to quatify a god, or gods.

"How can I not have faith?"
In the context of everything from words to pink elephants is a seperate issue of having experienced or not, those things and therefore by 'knowledge' of them I understand their exsistence. Not have faith that they exsists, but an acquired knowledge through experiences that they do or don't.

The original question of the thread was: What are your thoughts on god?

Those I presented to the thread.

However as I see you have grown weary of our little debate,which I fully understand btw, I'll just say 'fair enough' and I guess we're on different sides of the fence, so to speak on this one.

Meantime take care and again thanks, as y'know, you have made me ol' grey matter think some which is always stimulating.

I don't need to believe or claim faith in the words posted as I can evidently see those. This requires no act of faith or a belief that words exsist. I know they do.

The necessity to believe [in the context of god - a supposed unseen entity] demands an act of faith. Does it not? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

My stance, at present, is that I cannot believe in a percieved entity which is god because it's a human construct from a primitive time.

Well said bro but I think he is missing that. You can't compare things that are a reality for everyone to something that isn't. It is true reality is nothing more than a perception of a truth and perceptions will vary. That is another topic all together..But to belive in God or a God requires 100% faith in something you can't and may very well never see. A book of short stories and wild takes of "other" people is all you have to go on.

Hey Oak.

Yup that's kinda where I'm coming from I guess.It just doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
However as I see you have grown weary of our little debate,which I fully understand btw, I'll just say 'fair enough' and I guess we're on different sides of the fence, so to speak on this one.

Just want to clarify, I didn't grow weary, I would love to respond to what you said, but it is off topic incredibly, while talking about god requires talking about faith talking about faith has nothing to do with god.

The name of the thread, the point of the thread, is about god.

I said at the begining that I didn't want tangents, and I shouldn't have let myself get onto one. (Sorry I drew you in.)

This subject by its very definition is cyclic. Belief in God is an extremely personal thing and relies heavily on up bringing. I did once stop beleiving in God but then realised it was just too hard. I am a physics student and therefore a man of science I believe in rigirous proof of statement and evidence over conjecture but even so I cannot help but believe in God. No mater how much science we learn there is always the question "But Why." This is where God lives and although I don't beleieve in any religion as they are created and therefore contaminated by humans, I will always believe in God. Sorry if this is completely off topic but I just wanted somewhere to air my views.

Quote:Originally posted by christhecynic:
While I'm not going to tell you what terminology to use I want to clear something up, there are three stances on belief

1 I believe there is at least one god.
2 I do not believe.
3 I believe there is no god.

2 and 3 are both forms of atheism, 2 is the Agnostic stance as well as that of Soft Atheists, 3 is commonly known simply as Atheism but is more accurately Hard Atheism

Thinking of 2 and 3 as the same thing because neither believes in god is just as incorrect as thinking of 1 and 2 as the same thing because neither believes there is no god.

Who made up these 3 categories? 2 & 3 very well can be the same thing. Complete #2, "I do not believe"...in what? The tooth fairy? "I do believe in a god" or "I do not believe in a god." Seems like a yes or no question to me…

As for my stance, i choose the latter. Religion was created by man because he was afraid of the dark. The bible is a book of tales to help guide the moral compass. There is no higher power watching us make fools of ourselves, kill each other and slowly destroy our planet. If a god does exist & is sitting back, allowing all this to happen without raising a pinky to let us know he’s watching, to guide us, I’d call him a bastard, plain & simple.

My moral compass is set by 1 sentence (interestingly a quote from a book I hold less valuable than my Firefly boxed set), “Do unto others as you would have them do onto you.” Everything else is derivative.

So what if god is a human construct from a primitive time? So is mathematics.

A great man once said:

“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of god.”
-- Cicero.

Cicero was a brilliant man, and he understood the existence of god, probably as well as anyone can, when he wrote about it in his three volume work, De Natura Deorum,(trans: the nature of the gods).

“For we have ideas of [[]god[]] implanted, or rather innate, within us, and as that upon which the nature of all men is agreed must needs be true, their* existence must be acknowledged.”
-- Cicero, De Natura Deorum, Book I.

*god’s

Men who can look upon a universe far larger and stranger then any man will ever comprehend and then state that no god exists, do not do so because they are rational, but rather because they are arrogant. It is vanity, I believe, that leads people to deny the existence of god. We can no more look upon the universe today and claim to know anymore about how it came into existence then those people in a “primitive time.”

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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