I'm only too happy to try and answer your questions. Some of the answers may be generalised for sake of brevity, if you have specific questions about these just ask further. For ease, I will add my answers to your original.

captain wassname wrote:Hello Ive been thinking for a couple of days It would seem to me that this thread is concerned with pumped dry rubbed ham and in order to be granted the status of a sticky should be more than the questions of myself and Ian and replies of Dave and Phil. However I have questions and some assumtions.

Please forgive my lack of comunnication and keyboard skills.

Assumtion; inject and rub is an equillibrian cure in an easier and more foolproof method.Note: I have yet to find out much more than the existance of such cures.(Iwill undoubtedly post questions in an approptiate thread soon)

Inject and rub is an different process and the levels of cure are easier to calculate. Hence it's use. Info about this can be found here. (I have not posted this link to confuse you, but it's a great, if complicated, document for anyone wanting to cure safely).

Assumtion : Inject at 10% by weight is because 10%by weight is what a piece of meat would soak up if it were immersed in a brine.

Yep, that's about it!

Assumtion the rub part is to give the outside of the meat proction against bacteria.

The inject (pump) adds half the cure in this recipe, the rub the rest. Both will give protection, but the real reason is to add the correct amount of cure.

All the curing salts (cure #1, saltpetre) could be injected in the 10% of liquid - you would normally then put the meat into the same brine which would need a lot more brine to do. Dry Curing is cheaper than brine, but would take quite a while for a ham - this recipe is a compromise between the two(IMO). It also gives protection to the interior of the meat more quickly. There may be other reasons but they elude me at present.

Question: Is there a minimum amount of salt needed to protect the meatQuestion How much is too much salt

If you wanted to do a cure without Nitrite or Nitrate I believe that the levels required are generally quoted as in the 10-15% range (don't quote me on that), Wikipedia quotes 20% - pretty inedible anyway! If using nitrate/nitrite as in this cure the salt level is (somewhat) academic.In terms of taste, the level varies according to personal taste (and depends on other factors as well, such as the level of sugar), a 'ball-park' figure would be between 1.5% and 3% in the finished product. (edited 10/12/08 - to hopefully clarify)

Question what temp.do I need to cure at

Fridge temperature is fine - for saltpetre the higher end is recommended and it can be argued that nearer 8ï¿½C is better.

Question; how long do I have to cure for

This type of recipe is formulated to give the correct amount of salt/cure etc as long as the minimum time is allowed - extra time, within reason won't have any detrimental effect. Other types of curing depend on the recipe and cure used. In general terms cure #1 works quickly, saltpetre slowly.

Question; If I use more salt petre will my ham/bacon be pinker.

I've never tried it - I value my health too much - but in theory yes.

Question, how much salt petre is it safe to use.

That depends on which scientists you believe. Levels of nitrite set by the US and EU are about the same. Levels of Nitrate (saltpetre included) vary wildly. The rules only apply to commercial producers but we would be silly to ignore them, and the scientific research behind them. The levels used by Oddley in the recipe comply with the US rules.

I was about to put some question re Oddleys wiltshire ham receipe which I used with no problen (other than self inflicted) but I think it may be the subject to a correspondence between Dave and Oddley

Hope nobody thinks Im being awkward

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't.

Jim

I hope this helps and that others feel free to add to it.

Phil

Last edited by wheels on Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

captain wassname wrote:Assumption; inject and rub is an equilibrium cure in an easier and more foolproof method. Note: I have yet to find out much more than the existence of such cures.(Iwill undoubtedly post questions in an approptiate thread soon)

I heard about them but never saw one so I made one up. Yes if followed closely is a foolproof cure, and if using nitrite only quick too about 3-4 days.

captain wassname wrote:Assumtion : Inject at 10% bt weight is because 10%by weight is what a piece of meat would soak up if it were immersed in a brine.

It's not really what a piece would soak up, more an exchange of chemicals. But yes.

captain wassname wrote:Assumtion the rub part is to give the outside of the meat proction against bacteria.

Oddly, all the stuff I've seen suggests that the salt is an inhibitor rather than a prevention against bacterial infection. Also that given sufficient time, bacterial contamination can be found even in food with a 10% salt content. The oft recommended 3-3.5% salt content seems to be an acceptable balance between taste and reasonable commercial storage time.

Have I missed something? If so could you point me in the right direction.

Bateman wrote:Oddly, all the stuff I've seen suggests that the salt is an inhibitor rather than a prevention against bacterial infection. Also that given sufficient time, bacterial contamination can be found even in food with a 10% salt content. The oft recommended 3-3.5% salt content seems to be an acceptable balance between taste and reasonable commercial storage time.

You are right, a salt content of 3.33% salt, in a typical hurdle, safety scenario, should result in very low levels of bacteria present. I have not plucked 3.33% salt out of the air. Please readHere.

A brine concentration of 10%, should also give some protection to the exterior of meat. As we know, in well handled food, the interior is normally sterile. I've not got time to find proof. If you want to disprove or prove this, I'm afraid you will have to search yourself.

I have amended my previous answer to Jim to clarify the issue of salt. I want to make it clear that I am not advocating the use of 'salt only' curing and that when I said 1.5%-3% I was referring to the salt levels in the finished product not the brine.

Oddley is absolutely correct when he refers to a 3.33% salt figure (air-dried sausage and meat) and the 10% brine concentration. The document to which he links, although primarily concerned with the destruction of trichenae, makes interesting reading - particularly for air-dried sausage production.

It is worth pointing out that a 10% brine won't give 10% salt in the product. As an example, we like a fairly low(ish) level of salt in our finished ham of around 1.5% and would find 3%-3.5% too salty, but the brine is well over a 10% concentration.

Phil

Last edited by wheels on Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hi guys thanks for the help I need sone more help with operating the quote function. Just spent nearly 2 hours composing a reply only to find I wasnt logged in and lost the lot. Will post again when I have regained my composure.

I wasn't suggesting that you had plucked it out of thin air but neither do I believe everything posted on the internet, its a weakness of mine, but I tend to want to see authoritative references as you've provided, particularly when it relates to health issues.

Dave noted in his post that this document relates specifically to measures to prevent/kill trichinae in the US commercial cured meat industry. There do not appear to have been any cases of trichinosis in the UK and its not even mentioned on the HPA site. Although I can as a child remember many stories about the need to cook pork for long periods otherwise you would get worms!

I'm not sure, and would welcome your views. whether we can read across that because 3.3% salt prevents/kills trichinae (nematodes/worms) it is necessarily the right level to prevent bacterial growth.

If writing a long missive, it is worth writing it in a wordprocessing document and pasting the contents into a message window when you are ready to send it. You can quote things you want quoted into a message window on the site and not submit that post and then paste them into your word processor along with your text, they will then appear as quotes when you post your finished message in. I feel your pain...

Batman wrote:I'm not sure, and would welcome your views. whether we can read across that because 3.3% salt prevents/kills trichinae (nematodes/worms) it is necessarily the right level to prevent bacterial growth.

Salt is an essential ingredient of any sausage formulation.Salt is used to preserve the product, enhance the flavor, andto solubilize the meat proteins in order to improve thebinding properties of the formulation.Since the advent of refrigeration, the preservative propertiesare the least important use of salt, though dry sausages stilluse salt for preservation. A salt concentration of around17% is necessary for preservation to be effective.The most important use of salt in a sausage product is itsability to solubilize proteins. This enhances the producttexture and improves water and fat binding.

Salt is the main flavouring agent used in making sausages and it contributes to basic taste characteristics of the final product. The amount of salt added depends on the sausage type and particularly on the fat content but in general it ranges from 1.8 to 2.2 percent of the sausage mix. An acceptable level of salt in dry or semidry sausages is about 3 percent. However, higher and lower salt levels are often used.

Although salt is not generally used in concentrations sufficient to effect preservation it exerts some antimicrobial activity. Some bacteria are already inhibited at 2 percent levels of salt. Other microorganisms tolerate a much higher concentration of salt.

2. Salting / curingSalting ï¿½ Salt (sodium chloride NaCl) adds to the taste of the final product. The content of salt in sausages, hams, corned beef and similar products is normally 1.5-3%. Solely common salt is used if the cooked products shall have a greyish or greyish-brown colour as for example steaks, meat balls or ï¿½whiteï¿½ sausages (see box page 33). For production of a red colour in meat products see ï¿½Curingï¿½ (page 34).

Chemical aspects of salting

The water holding capacity of meat can be increased with the addition of salt up to a concentration of about 5% in lean meat and then decreases constantly. At a concentration of about 11% in the meat, the water binding capacity is back to the same level as in fresh unsalted meat.

Sodium chloride has only a very low capacity to destroy microorganisms, thus almost no bacteriological effect. Its preserving power is attributed to the capability to bind water and to deprive the meat of moisture. The water loosely bound to the protein molecules as well as ï¿½freeï¿½ water will be attracted by the sodium and chloride ions causing a reduction of the water activity (aw) (see page 323) of the product. This means that less water will be available and the environment will be less favourable for the growth of microorganisms. Bacteria do not grow at a water activity below 0.91, which corresponds to a solution of 15g NaCl/100 ml water or about 15% salt in the product. These figures explain how salt has its preservative effect. Such salt concentrations (up to 15%) are too high for palatable food. However, for the preservation of natural casings this method is very useful.

Heat treatment of meat salted with NaCl results in conversion of the red meat pigment myoglobin (Fe+2) to the brown metmyoglobin (Fe+3). The colour of such meat turns brown to grey (see Fig. 60, 61).

34 Principles of meat processing technology

Besides adding to flavour and taste, salt also is an important functional ingredient in the meat industry, which assists in the extraction of soluble muscle proteins. This property is used for water binding and texture formation in certain meat products (see page 129, 184).

The preservation effect, which is microbial inhibition and extension of the shelf-life of meat products by salt in its concentrations used for food (on average 1.5-3% salt), is low. Meat processors should not rely too much on this effect (see box page 33) unless it is combined with other preservation methods such as reduction of moisture or heat treatment.

Hello I only got 2 hours sleep tuesday night so I wasnt functioning to well. Many thanks for your time and patience

Phil :

Phil said

nject and rub is an different process and the levels of cure are easier to calculate. Hence it's use. Info about this can be found here. (I have not posted this link to confuse you, but it's a great, if complicated, document for anyone wanting to cure safely).

I understand the difference and I know of the exisance of the PDF document and realise that it is required reading (after christmas,promise)

Phil said

All the curing salts (cure #1, saltpetre) could be injected in the 10% of liquid - you would normally then put the meat into the same brine which would need a lot more brine to do. Dry Curing is cheaper than brine, but would take quite a while for a ham - this recipe is a compromise between the two(IMO). It also gives protection to the interior of the meat more quickly. There may be other reasons but they elude me at present.

I hope we are talking at cross purposesas I have a ham nearly finished and I used Oddleys wiltshire cure which said to inject at 10% only. I think I must have done it right as the salt petre works out at 0.06%

Phil said

I've never tried it - I value my health too much - but in theory yes.

and That depends on which scientists you believe. Levels of nitrite set by the US and EU are about the same. Levels of Nitrate (saltpetre included) vary wildly. The rules only apply to commercial producers but we would be silly to ignore them, and the scientific research behind them. The levels used by Oddley in the recipe comply with the US rules.

I have read elsewhere on the forum that up to 1000 PPM is OK hence my question about wether I would get a pinker product.Iwould not expect a response from you if you were not comfortable with a level above 600 PPM

The rest is crystal I really need a day or two to think before I ask anymore

Oddley

Oddley said

I heard about them but never saw one so I made one up. Yes if followed closely is a foolproof cure, and if using nitrite only quick too about 3-4 days.

Ive seen it and know where to look when im ready

Oddley said

Yes and no. I made the cure up so I had to chose some level. I wanted to have enough raw salt to have at least a 10% brine concentration on the outside of the meat to inhibit bacteria.

This is exactly what I was hoping hear

Oddley said

An ingoing amount of 3.33% for air dried meats and salami, or a minimum of 10% brine concentration ingoing, that can be worked out by the following.