Add the row yourself in the google doc(on the sheet for your level). Feel free to create and protect a seperate sheet for your own calculations for your build. The link column should either point to your worksheet (URL when viewing your sheet) or to the forum post where your build is outlined.

Reply to this thread or the old DPR king candidates 2.0 with your build. I'll add a row in the google doc. If you provide DPR I'll convert to KPR(see sig) assumming you'll do the same thing every round. If you use encounter powers outline total expected damage in round 2,5, and 10.

Copy-Paste from Excel to Google DocsIf you just copy-paste from Excel, you'll end up only copying values and no one will be able to see the formulas you're using. So what you do is push Ctrl+~ (in Excel 2007; don't know about other versions) so that it actually shows the formulas in each cell, not the values. Now copy it, and when you paste into the Google Doc it should all be correct (also: make sure you paste it into the same cell numbers as they were in the original sheet).

Best Practices with your sheetMake a new sheet in the spreadsheet, name it either after yourself or your build. You'll probably want to lock it, and preferably hide it. Viewers can add comments to the cells where they have questions

AoE: Area of Effect attack. KPR calculation has been converted from to Single target KPR

BB: Brutal Barrage

Bld: Must be bloodied w/o bloodfury weapon

CA: Combat Advantage. Some builds, often rogues, simply assume they have CA to be competative. Other builds, like those that use Surprising charge, need it to blow people up but have a hard time generating it.

Ch: Charge, This build assumes it will be able to safely charge every round

DV-RBA: Distant Vengance applied to non-avenger RBA

Fey: Uses the Fey Beast Tamer theme for easy CA cheese

Frst: Frost cheese: Lasting frost often grouped with Wintertouched to get consistent CA and an extra 5 damage

IRC: Item Rarity Compliant

#REF!: #REF!

Mnt: Uses a mount

noD: You do not have adequate defenses. Must achieve at least Poor on : Normalized Defences

noLFR: Not Legal in Living Forgotten Realms. Typically means has Mark of X

Rev.: Revenant. Cheesy when coupled with Belt of sollinor's righteousness (practically can't die), or Ghostly Vitality+Superior will for extra actions

Go ahead and start with the polls. Doing full DPR calcs is enough of a pain that I'd rather know what the restrictions are first. (I'll only be doing 2-3. Wil (Half-elf Str/Wis avenger), Riven (permastealth warlock), and maybe a Slapchop varient)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Is there anything about moving? Cause it seems slightly more realistic if you have to move between things. Say.. starting 5 squares away. Yes it's an advantage to ranged attackers, but they have that advantage anyways.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

I'll be happy to convert all the current candidates to the new DPR calculation. I'm pretty sure we will establish rules that does not disqualify any of those builds. They will hopefully still be 100% legal. If the owners want to update them with an encounter power breakdown to increase their TPK then they can do so and repost in this thread and I'll update it.

1)1a) I think normalized DPR is the better metric, but if you use it you may as well show both (since you will need to calculate DPR anyway).1b) I'd go for turns per kill. Also, if we are going to use encounter powers, it might be interesting to have a bit more of detail here: turns for 1st kill and turns for 2nd kill, for example (with or without accounting for area attacks).

2)2a) I like the idea, and think it is a much more useful metric than at-will DPR.2b) 2c) I'd take 5 rounds for both.2c) Average. I'd like to see silly novas here.

That said, my interest is mostly as a reader. For me, having more detailed information about the builds is very interesting. Those who will post the builds and see this as extra effort may think otherwise ;)

If we're going to turn this into a (somewhat) more realistic build section, where we have an expected length of combat, and we have permission to use encounter powers, I would say we should also go with the semi-realistic idea that top end strikers are going to kill things fast.

If we assume an on-level encounter (or a high level encounter made up of higher level monsters, which, as I've discussed in other locations, won't actually change the length of the combat when we assume top end strikers), then team monster will be 5 monsters. Let's assume that our DM is mean, and we face 6 monsters. This gives us: 6*(8*level+24) hp to chew through. Assume that in your typical party 2 people will be designed around doing damage (whether 2 strikers or 2 something-else-that-want-to-be-strikers). Then assume that the other 3 people do about the same damage combined, as one of the damagers. Thus, a given striker, in a given encounter has to do 1/3 of the enemy hp before the encounter is over. We want to see top end strikers though, so lets assume that the party is built so only the strikers deal damage; this means we need to extend this a little bit, and assume that the striker has to do 1/2 of the enemy hp before the encounter is over. I think it would also be reasonable to assume that the monsters are actually all standards; even if you can deal 10,000 damage to one enemy, that won't actually win the encounter, since you have to spread some of the damage against other monsters.

Then we assume our encounter length is based on hp, NOT on rounds. You need to do 3*(8*level +24) damage, and then the encounter is over. Ignore number of rounds. In this way, your use of encounter powers will more accurately reflect your own playstyle; for instance, if you are an extreme alpha-striker, then you'll expend all your encounter powers in the first round, but will probably do all the damage you need to, in one round. If you are something else, that won't be the case.

As an example, the Blender Mk 17, would only play for one round.

Given this example, I think it would be reasonable to include movement in here. Assume team monster starts, say, 10 squares away from your PC; assume all enemies will attempt to stay the most disadvantageous number of squares apart based on your build, to a maximum of, say, 3 squares (since team monster doesn't want to be out of range for it's own attacks, and it will want to be close enough to attack the optimal PC for it's own attacks). (So if you are a charger, then all monsters would try to stay, say, 1 square behind whichever monster you are currently fighting, so that you can't charge them without moving again; if you are a greatbow wielder, then team monster will be wherever they want, but you'll still be in range to attack them every time.) This also has the advantage of permitting high end burst builds to actually be calculated (although it doesn't work for low level builds; perhaps I could change the maximum distance between to 1/tier? That way burst builds at all levels could be calculated?)

However, since we still want to see DPR Kings, and not just who wins encounters (since that's a fairly low hp threshold), lets say, you only get to use your encounter powers in rounds where you are against the first 3*(8*level +24) hp worth of monsters (note that you are allowed a LITTLE bit of encounter power usage against the next set of monsters, if you can time it right); all monsters after that are clean-up, and so you are back to using at-wills (even if you have encounter powers left) in any rounds after you have dealt with your own allocated monsters, and you have to deal another 3*(level*level+24) damage to finish the encounter.

Then we take the average damage dealt per round, and use that as your DPR king damage.

In this way, we get to see a nova (bam! 3 monsters dead in first round), but you're forced into sub-optimal damage for the rest of the fight to reflect how much damage you are doing in an endurance situation.

Of course, this is all probably way too detailed for the purposes of DPR kings, but I figured if we were going to mention slightly more realistic situations, I would throw my own two cents in too.

I'm leary of a "for the labs" encounter breakdown. I fear that the simple "here's my attack and damage breakdown" type of candidate is going to be the common one rather than the "Since I have a flanker and both monsters are in a 5x5 the total HP goes down by an expected X amount. If that doesn't occur we do Y"

Normalized via KPT (actually, Kills per Round) Yes, it'll be fractional, but "higher is better" is pretty baked in these days.

2) Encounter power candidates2a) Should we allow encounter powers at all?2b) How long is your typical encounter? pick a number between 4-10 rounds2c) How long is your typical boss fight? pick a number between 4-10 rounds2d) Should we use median damage or average?

Median will make nova builds look unimpressive. Remember median of an even number of elements is the average of the middle 2.

Average will make nova rounds bias the overall DPR

I think there's a place for "mean KPR over 10 rounds" in a nominal DPR thread. That's a pretty useful measure of sustained damage output.

There's also a place here for "KPR during a nova sequence in round 2. (assume you've been given a +N to hit bonus)", because that answers a different tactical question.

I'm not a huge fan of KPR over 4 rounds, because I personally don't think that will represent real game play outside of modules, due to DM adjusting things to cope with your optimized striker.

3) Categorization of cheese usage

Yes, I like the cheese legend. Yes, it should be enforced at some level.

I do like larger categories though. I'd suggest "LFR", "Essentials Only", and "Stock" (half your items are common, otherwise pretty much anything goes) as three larger categories. How about a "Toy" tag for builds who defenses and durability do not match reasonable benchmarks?

I wouldn't mind if you created some arbitrary house rules as a 3rd section (revenant actions fixed, Rending is free, no recursive crits, no zone abuse), but that seems ... combustible.

4) Do you still want a Nova section? Are there special rules you want changed from the last DPR king thread (1 AP, 1 prep round, daily section and encounter section)?

Seemed good to me.

8) Daily item restrictions: Do we allow daily items, and how many encounters should a build be able to sustain it to be legal?

I think multiple uses of an one item should require one of the cheese tags above, because if you're using rarity you won't have 5 dancing weapons, and if not you won't have enough daily item uses. Otherwise I'd just generally figure it's for the LFR/Stock/CommonHouseRules split.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I think multiple uses of an one item should require one of the cheese tags above, because if you're using rarity you won't have 5 dancing weapons, and if not you won't have enough daily item uses. Otherwise I'd just generally figure it's for the LFR/Stock/CommonHouseRules split.

1) Normalized, Kills Per Turn - it makes the most sense, and as mentioned previously, "higher is better" feels right.2) Yes, 5, 5, average - since nova rounds should make a difference in combat length.3) Yes, the legend was very useful, but please use names as the symbols became unwieldy. Separations for (non)chargers feels appropriate.4) Nova rounds are awesome, but instead of categorizing them just use more legends to qualify what sort of nova it is instead of separating them.5) Tags work for me.

Those are all the questions I have input on. Thanks for restarting the guide, I look forward to your work!

57029358 wrote:

... congratulations, Monkeygentleman.You won the unwinnable.

68773941 wrote:

monkeygentleman, you are the worst thing to happen to the CharOp forums since Mearls took over WotC.

I'm not a huge fan of KPR over 4 rounds, because I personally don't think that will represent real game play outside of modules, due to DM adjusting things to cope with your optimized striker.

4-5 assumes there's an IS an adjustment.If the DM did NOT adjust, then we only need 2 turns.

Though i still like 4 better then 5, because we're only counting encounter things. Turn 5 (or possibly 1) would likely be your daily, or a turn spent stunned, or unconcious, or whatever. But it's fine either way.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

My problem with speccing out for short combats is the drastic fall off of power, and how that interacts with DM adjustments.

The horror case is falling off from ~80 dpr to ~30, right as the second wave of the encounter hits. I've seen that happen, and its accidental tpk land. Rather spectacularly, actually. One round from everyone up to everyone dead.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

For pure at-will candidates those will be the same. For those that like to outline how their build works and can explode your nova number will be significantly higher. I have no idea how I'd rank the builds.

My problem with speccing out for short combats is the drastic fall off of power, and how that interacts with DM adjustments. The horror case is falling off from ~80 dpr to ~30, right as the second wave of the encounter hits. I've seen that happen, and its accidental tpk land. Rather spectacularly, actually. One round from everyone up to everyone dead.

A drastic fall off in power will be measured by the average.

(80+30+30+30)/4 = 42.5.(80+30+30+30+30)/ 5 = 40.

Compaired to say.. a steady 50 DPR.

The former is now shown to be weaker then the latter. Instead of showing off 80 vs 50. (or 55 vs 50, if we do 2 turn).

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

I'm more worried about a stereotypical "4 encounter powers used as standard action" falloff that looks more like:(90+80+70+70)/4 = ~88(90+80+70+70+30+30+30+30+30+30)/10 = ~49

In other words, 4 is a bad number because it's not significantly more than the number of encounter powers you have.

Also, as far as median goes...[...]So i don't think it's a good measure at all.

Agreed. Mean or go home.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Werksferme. That's pretty close to exactly what I'd want. (the difference being I'd rather use KPR instead of KPT, since that's usually what we're measuring anyway. )

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I will not taint the votes with my opinion. I just wanted to say that I will be choosing the majority vote on median/average, and the majority vote on 2,3,4,5... round bias and if people like the 2 numbers rather than projecting onto 1 axis.

I probably will let the voting happen over 2-3 weeks, just so I get the majority of the lurkers. The active people here are quite biased towards one way or the other and are often verbal with their opinion which leads to great discussion. We also want a good sample size of votes.

Then please consider my vote to be "two numbers (Nova, and sustained)" and "Sustained should be measured over any number of rounds greater than 4 (5-10)" (and "Mean, not median")

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damage

Nova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2

Slight bias for Type 1. I think it's a more useful document if the sustained number is more realistic (including encounter powers), and thus more useful for your real goal of "Well-Rounded Striker Build corpus" But you need a spike-damage entry to be a real striker too...

(See my prior rants. A striker needs:

Targeting Capacity to choose which monster to stop. (Mobility for melee strikers)

Spike damage/Spike control. "Stop that monster Right-GAI-Now"

DPRz to stop all monsters eventually

Enough durability to apply 1-3 even if you rolled poorly for initiative.)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

3e) I'm probably going to keep the seperation of level 6 chargers vs. non-chargers. Do you feel other seperations are necessary?

I see no need to separate chargers even at level 64) Do you still want a Nova section? Are there special rules you want changed from the last DPR king thread (1 AP, 1 prep round, daily section and encounter section)?

Yes, and no

5) Do you want a non-item specific builds section, or is the tag of IRC(Item Rarity Compliant) sufficent?5a) Should we have

Builds are either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IRS(Item rarity sucks) OR

Builds can be either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IPS(Item power spamming(Ammunition, Whetstones, Dancing weapon...)) or neither?

I would say that everything should be allowed but each build should state what it does - dancing weapons push the boat out further than some, but at a certain level magic amunition is cheap.

6) What guides/links do you want here? Just post a link.

A link to the glossary couldn't hurt.

7) What format do you want the "updates " section in?

8) Daily item restrictions: Do we allow daily items, and how many encounters should a build be able to sustain it to be legal?

No to daily items, except for nova, unless the item is your level -10 and (un)common - i.e. a pittance.

9) Type 1 or Type 2?Type 1)

Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damage

Nova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2

Type 2)

Each candidate will have 2 numbers Nova(2 round average) and sustained(end of the day DPR). the nova value will default to sustained if no nova value is provided

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

1) I like normalized, but I think that should be the final posted number, with DPR still being visible somewhere in the build. Partly, because if you are fighting higher level bads or going against solos/elites, you are going to have a better idea of your performance if you can see DPR v KPT. I also prefer total kills by turn x as the standard, instead of how many kills you expect to rack up on an average turn. This gives a better number than your average, since it does not give as much weight to outliers while also not being thrown off by playing the system going for the median. I also think if we are going for a normalized kill metric, we should actually account for overkill. A single target rogue claiming they did enough damage to kill 3 standards in one round isn't the same as actually killing three standards. Accounting for overkill will actually give aoe types like monks and sorcerors a reliable footing to compete since they might actually be able to claim a greater number of kills if under the right conditions. Perhaps as a compromise (since we do want that rogue when we need to kill an elite right now and not 3 standards), what if the metric was over n turns, and accounting for the total damage done to a single target each turn, you list what size of bad you are able to bring down. So a typical build here might say round 1 setup, round 2 nova (elite dead), round 3 nova (elite dead), round 4 (standard dead), round 5 (standard bloodied). It might make using the normalized value harder to rank them, but if so, we could still rank them by raw DPR.

3) Legend is good, but lets use abbreviations. It will be easier for submitters to add it themself at the bottom instead of trying to look up how to give the special key commands for yen. I like your suggestions listed. If we want to include aoe types, perhaps a grouping marking. Seperating level 6 chargers was really just seperating those with the (CH) and (ITM) codes. Yes, they amount to a fair bit of potential at that level (I hate the boar the most), but if we code each submission properly, it will more or less become obvious. But if we do, then we probably need to create an epic sidebar (especially at 30) for revenant/dancing weapon cheese. Its easily far worse and easier to append to any build than charging is at 6.

4) If we do the metric right, we probably don't need a nova section, since a build's nova potential will be right there up for display, plus a lot of the better builds will probably rely on strong novas anyway with the route we are going. It would just be a double list. Unless we want to keep just the AP+Daily nova section. It is different enough it might merit its own list.

5) I think the tag is probably sufficient, although it will probably religate most of those style of builds to the bottom of the lists. I can't decide how I feel about those builds, really. On the one hand, I feel they do a better job of showcasing how solid the character itself is as a frame and gives a better baseline for lurkers looking for a good build to try. The rest of the builds tend to be hypothetical theorycraft that would never be capable of coming together at a real table. But on the other hand....I really, really, enjoy the theorycraft. Plus, there are only so many real options for builds without items. The item builds also serve to highlist interesting and potentially useful combinations others might not have thought of that could end up at a table. Will you get all 9 uncommons you want for crazy build X? No, but you might snag an element from the build and use it with one or two of the items for a still decent and interesting effect.

6) No preference. The handbooks, I guess. But if you need to look at those, you probably shouldn't be digging through the convoluted builds that can get posted in here. Turn by Turn breakdowns, number crunching, and esoteric builds are overwhelming for anyone who needs to sift through a handbook.

7) Date and what was added/removed.

8) No daily anything (item or otherwise). If you can't expect to reuse it every encounter, no matter what, it doesn't count. Use it in your daily nova build. If we must....nothing less than 5 or 6 encounters a day. But even then, (and this is something that will happen to any build with a weakness on here if used at a real table), once the DM realized you only get to use an item 5 times a day, they are going to make you suffer with a 6th or 7th encounter. They will throw lil baby encounters to make you waste uses, long days, and even red herring baby encounters to make you second guess how long a day will be. This is unrelated to this question, but it brings up the same with super nova builds that then do leader level damage at-will. Once the DM knows this, they will adjust to your murder to create a challenge.

9) I think I kind of outlined my suggestion in #1. Looks closer to option Type 1. I think we should have at least 5 rounds, if not 6. Again, for the reason I mentioned above: the DM will adjust to what challenges you. If turns 1-3 are a breeze but you can barely tread water from then on, expect there to be just as many round after round 3, or just as bad, the DM making you second guess yourself and expect 6 rounds so that you hold off and do your round 10 damage for 3 rounds before you realize the bads aren't going to be getting reinforcements and you just wasted the opportunity to nova altogether. And then expected number of actual kills at the end of round n, not just a mean/median.

1.) Normalized.1b.) My answer depends on how you're going to deal with AEers in each case. I kill two creatures in round 2 that I brought to half health in round 1. Saying I am a 1 TPK striker is inaccurate, but that'd be the average. KPT has a similar issue.

4.) Daily, Encounter, AP Encounter, Solar Flare Daily, Solar Flare Encounter, Solar Flare Encounter+AP. Solar Flare's tend to have more playable assumptions, like built-in movement or an allowance for actually using a move action to move. It'd give a good distinction between practical and theoretical.

5.) Rarity is stupid and I know of a not a single person who uses it outside of LFR, so LFR compliant should be enough of a tag.

8.) 4 in Heroic, 6 in Paragon, 8 in Epic. As you get older you get a longer work day.

Would there be a preference for DeciKPR or KPDecaR? That makes the numbers pleasing again...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

I had thought to start a separate thread to cover Averaged Encounter Damage - more of a Real-World character effectiveness comparison. It seems it may be redundant to do so at this point; here is what I had made for notes on what I was going to propose (and get feedback on)...

Builds will be tagged with; CA, Ch, HLW, L#, LFR, Mn, St

CA (Combat Advantage) - the build requires Combat Advantage for at least 50% of its attacks/damage.

Ch (Charging) - the build relies on charging for at least 50% of its attacks/damage.

HLW - the build is made with the Starting at a Higher Level equipment/wealth rules (L+1/L/L-1, L-1gp), rather than an assumption of wealth appropriate to the character's level.

L# (Level) - Entries can be of any level; though the preferred entries will be (based on DPR Kings) 1, 6, 12, 16, 24, and 30

LFR (Living Forgotten Realms) - the build is legal to play in Living Forgotten Realms.

Mn (Mounted) - obviously, the build requires a mount to function as listed.

St (Stealth) - the build requires the character to be hidden, have cover or concealment, or to be in dim light for at least 50% of its attacks/damage

The at-will damage is figured AFTER the resources for 4/10 rounds have been used - so if it is an effect that lasts until the end of the encounter, it can be applied; if it is an effect based on a single target, assume the target is gone by round 4 (or 10 if applied after round 4).

List damage as Total (AVG/rnd) | Total (AVG/rnd) | (AVG/rnd)

For the targeting/damage calculations, assume you always have 4 standard targets of level +2.

Even if you kill all 4 (or more), there will always be 4 targets.

There are 2 targets in burst 1/blast 3, 3 targets in burst 2/blast 5, and all 4 targets in any larger AoE. (Unless you have a method of guaranteeing you pull the targets into a tighter formation as part of the build.)

Unless you have a means of affecting saves, assume a save-ends power lasts 2 rounds.

For each 2 points you can penalize the save, add 1 round.

There are no set-up rounds available, outside of the 4/10 rounds listed.

You are not allowed to use Action Points or Daily Powers, unless you have a guaranteed way of using the AP or Daily every encounter (assume 5 encounters/day).

Instead of the 4/10/~i damage calcs, I had also thought of 5/10/~i, 4/8/~i, and 3/6/9 rounds. I also notice the trend is to kill count rather than damage - that could just as easily be applied to the 4/10/~i model.

3) Abbreviations, add a tag for mounts, add a tag for builds with no survivability, add a tag for targeting issues (1000 sustained dpr against an enemy! ...30 dpr against any of his friends), add a tag for using "overlooked" effects/being RAI-questionable (e.g. Lightning Fury was unaffected by zone nerf, rending was unaffected by free action attack nerf)... and then maybe a special tag for builds that require being bloodied/below 0? But that might mostly be covered by Revenants.

Basically, I ran through all the cheese I use and proposed a tag for it

4) Yes to the nova section

6) A table of appropriate wealth by level (there are multiple ways to determine this; pick one and make everyone use it please!)

8) Yes, 5 encounters/day with a special tag for if you couldn't sustain the build indefinitely. In the specific case of consumables, they should be cheap enough that you can easily buy them in bulk (maybe something like 1 encounter's worth of consumables must cost < 1% of a magic item of your level).

9) If you go with type 1, I like 6 rounds. However, I prefer type 2, but with "sustained dpr" being your 10-round average. I don't like "infinite rounds," even for theoryop, because 1) a Great Hunger weapon (or similar effect) gives you infinite dpr, and 2) if you're using a combination that can be sustained until you roll double-1's (or something similar), it has no effect on "infinite rounds" dpr, when clearly for any remotely reasonable usage it works.

I'd also like some way to incorporate bonuses stemming from attacking bloodied enemies, and from dropping an enemy to 0 hp.

I will second the vote that: You list by how many of each type of monster you can kill by round 5, and specifically include the fact that they are different targets so overkill has to be accounted for. (So if you are Current Blender you can kill say, 9 solos and 2 elite brutes by round 5) If you want to list exact damage that's cool, but extra.

I will vote against the 2 round nova including prep round. I've always though that wasn't really feasible; it's much more useful to see what you can nova without any preperation round.

I'll also ask: will there be a place in this thread for party builds? (As a specific example, would there be a place for my Alpha-Strike squad in this thread? It might motivate me to actually finally finish up the last few details for it.)