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You are fearful you are losing control here, control is the issue here and very ego driven! But no worries, one of your little clinger zenners will show up soon and try to bail you out. If you are a teacher, then teach me, with out so much whining and acting like a teenager. Go ahead and kick me off this site, be a man, otherwise I will get back to you in a A couple of days

The mirror principle at its best. My breath is calm and what you describe applies to your mind state. Please , have a look!

That's why traditionally, we let go of control in the cross legged position!
Have you ever punched someone in the face, sitting full lotus with your hands in your lap..?

Anger sometimes bubbles up in Shikantaza. Some days more and some days less. And we let it. We give it space and let it do whatever it wants (like Suzuki's cows). Let it burn us up completely. No controlling. No judging. No fear. No trying to push it away and force our focus back to "meditation". And when we let anger just be anger in this way, letting it rage freely without trying to put a leash on it, we can sometimes see it for what it is. Just a bubble, coming from nowhere, staying for a while, then naturally dissolving into nothing. Powerless really, when seen for what it truly is and not identified with.

Completely letting go like this, letting anger be anger, breathing be breathing, thoughts be thoughts, not seeking anything, not shutting anything out, letting whatever thought, emotion or sensation appears come into mind, in my opinion, is Shikantaza. So difficult, because it's so easy, so simple. We don't have to try to do anything, just stop meddling with the way body-mind naturally functions. This to me is the gateless gate, the goalless goal, the practiceless practice of no effort.

"What is called sitting-zen, sitting-meditation, is not meditation that is learned. It is the Dharma-gate of effortless ease. It is the practice and experience that gets to the bottom of the Buddha's enlightenment. The laws of the Universe are realized, around which there are no nets or cages. To grasp this meaning is to be like a dragon that has found water, or like a tiger before a mountain stronghold. Remember, true reality spontaneously emerges, and darkness and dissipation vanish at a stroke."

In other situations, when we are tired, stressed out, afraid, frustrated, distracted, unbalanced, run by the monkey mind (and we are not sitting facing the wall in the crossed legged position!), we may find ourselves on the brink of punching somebody in the face, shaking our child, saying something deeply hurtful. In those situations control is necessary, vital even. Just stay your hand and walk away. Practice letting go of control another time!

Gassho,
/Pontus

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk. Anyway, and still, look, no, to me, this is like two people talking past each other, though I must say that galen's last comments have been rather disheartening. I thought Taigu (and I still do, Taigu) was and is being reasonable, but the problem seemed and still seems to be this:

Taigu was talking about breathing during Shikantaza (as you are, mainly, Pontus).

galen seemed to be talking about breathing not during shikantaza and pushing it pretty hard.

And frankly, I don't see what the problem is with a little attention to breath here and there, out in the world (though always out in the world, etc), though, as I said, I think galen was probably pushing the breath thing a bit too hard. So, it seemed to me there was, and still is, a place to meet in the middle on this. Otherwise, it would be like saying, "Look, our practice is this, shikantaza, don't mix other practices." And well, shit, I practice writing. So, I give up writing, even off the zafu? Seems silly. The practice of breathing, of being aware of the breath, quick before a free throw, on a jog (I mean, these are often prescribed things, being aware of the breath, for athletes, c'mon guys), and to say no to that seems, well, okay, I'll leave it there.

Thank you for your post and patience, Alan. This thread is s beautiful illustration of the very nature of " extensive discussion" of the case 12.
That s why I invite people here ( not mere " clinger zenners") to ask themselves :

What is the real world?
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same as fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk. Anyway, and still, look, no, to me, this is like two people talking past each other, though I must say that galen's last comments have been rather disheartening. I thought Taigu (and I still do, Taigu) was and is being reasonable, but the problem seemed and still seems to be this:

Taigu was talking about breathing during Shikantaza (as you are, mainly, Pontus).

galen seemed to be talking about breathing not during shikantaza and pushing it pretty hard.

And frankly, I don't see what the problem is with a little attention to breath here and there, out in the world (though always out in the world, etc), though, as I said, I think galen was probably pushing the breath thing a bit too hard. So, it seemed to me there was, and still is, a place to meet in the middle on this. Otherwise, it would be like saying, "Look, our practice is this, shikantaza, don't mix other practices." And well, shit, I practice writing. So, I give up writing, even off the zafu? Seems silly. The practice of breathing, of being aware of the breath, quick before a free throw, on a jog (I mean, these are often prescribed things, being aware of the breath, for athletes, c'mon guys), and to say no to that seems, well, okay, I'll leave it there.

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk.

I check and control myself every day, probably every hour. Whether that is good or bad depends on how you regard your practice IMHO. If you have a very idealistic interpretation of buddhism and zen buddhist practice, then checking back and controlling anger is a very bad thing. There shouldn't be anger in the first place in this idealistic picture, and if there still is, as good buddhists we should immediately become aware of it when it arises and just be mindful of it. The truth is, sometimes even buddhists get stark, raving mad and behave badly. It's OK. We're only humans, with all sorts of faults. There's no need to play charades, trying to impersonate our idea of a perfect buddhist. Instead, we can just acknowledge the damage done, the hurt inflicted, and ask for forgiveness. I do believe zen practice helps us become less frustrated and angry, but I don't think we should expect to achieve perfect balance at all times. True balance for me is the ability to adapt to the various circumstances life throws at you. If you feel perfectly happy, enjoy it. If you feel angry, accept that, be angry and adapt to being in a state of anger. Iif you did punch someone in the face, you adapt to that situation too, face it head on, take responsability and don't blame someone or something else. Causes and conditions put us where we are. All we can do in this moment is change the direction we're going. We can't do anything about the past, just learn from it. True balance is accepting and dancing with life as it constantly evolves, in or out of balance. On the Zafu, in stillness and silence, we are completely exposed, without anywhere for the ego to hide. In our busy, everyday lives, we are often under stress, distracted, forced to make decisions, choices, judge things. But we don't have to actively try to bring Zazen into every activity. If we allow ourselves to drop body and mind on the Zafu, then slowly, automatically, effortlessly (if we allow it), we will find Zazen mind, Bodhi mind arising in other activities too. But we can never force it to. Limiting the stress, distractions, decisions, judging and expectations we expose ourselves to helps though, in my own humble experience.

Gassho,
Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

What you write here at the end of your post is exactly what I give my life too. Surender, no grasping. Allowing, non doing. This is an excellent description of what takes place from zafu to life and life to zafu.

I check and control myself every day, probably every hour. Whether that is good or bad depends on how you regard your practice IMHO. If you have a very idealistic interpretation of buddhism and zen buddhist practice, then checking back and controlling anger is a very bad thing. There shouldn't be anger in the first place in this idealistic picture, and if there still is, as good buddhists we should immediately become aware of it when it arises and just be mindful of it. The truth is, sometimes even buddhists get stark, raving mad and behave badly. It's OK. We're only humans, with all sorts of faults. There's no need to play charades, trying to impersonate our idea of a perfect buddhist. Instead, we can just acknowledge the damage done, the hurt inflicted, and ask for forgiveness. I do believe zen practice helps us become less frustrated and angry, but I don't think we should expect to achieve perfect balance at all times. True balance for me is the ability to adapt to the various circumstances life throws at you. If you feel perfectly happy, enjoy it. If you feel angry, accept that, be angry and adapt to being in a state of anger. Iif you did punch someone in the face, you adapt to that situation too, face it head on, take responsability and don't blame someone or something else. Causes and conditions put us where we are. All we can do in this moment is change the direction we're going. We can't do anything about the past, just learn from it. True balance is accepting and dancing with life as it constantly evolves, in or out of balance. On the Zafu, in stillness and silence, we are completely exposed, without anywhere for the ego to hide. In our busy, everyday lives, we are often under stress, distracted, forced to make decisions, choices, judge things. But we don't have to actively try to bring Zazen into every activity. If we allow ourselves to drop body and mind on the Zafu, then slowly, automatically, effortlessly (if we allow it), we will find Zazen mind, Bodhi mind arising in other activities too. But we can never force it to. Limiting the stress, distractions, decisions, judging and expectations we expose ourselves to helps though, in my own humble experience.

I have just started my second time through ZMBM by Suzuki, and you quote from his chapter on Breathing, not so ironic . A couple chapters later, in Mind Weeds, he ads.... 'You should keep your mind on your breathing until you are not aware of your breathing.' I found that to be true many years back from my Kriya Yoga practice/meditation from my Yogananda teachings, it took a while but I became aware of this feeling of just setting inside and really very little use of breath of any kind, powerful shit! It seems to me there are many ways to get There, as long as we are processing as best we can with our abilities at that moment in `time. Breathing into 'boundless expanse', everything falls into place at its own time.

I understand your method here using the King of Soto Zen, Dogen studies, and rightly so (i am excited to start reading him in the spring). I also have a grasp of shikantaza, and at some point if the pull is strong enough, I will also use that practice, with no goal. I also realize your concern (maybe some fear) about mixing practices and how that can get people off track, no track, and so related to that, personally at this point I sometimes speak from quite an extensive experience of different practices, because that is the only language I have been used to, and to this point it seems to have served me well. I do not intend to sell anything of which I have experienced, esp to convince newer Zen students of something not meant for them in your teachings. At this `point, I am just working with what I bring to the forum and what I have experienced from that. Have patience and no fear, you guys and most of the assembled here on this site have been here a while and are quite wise, and are mostly, fully on board. So with that, what I have to say, ‘for now’, should have little impact on new people, esp if your teachings are strong and true, which they seem to be. I am very new here, not to Zen so much or studies of different sects of Zen/Buddhism, Taoism and quite a bit of Hinduism under Yogananda teachings and also the reading of the GITA a couple times. So please be patient, give me ring once in a while and hopefully we will all be fine. It is somewhat hard for me to just get in line, I also feel some disruptions from time to time are not a bad thing, it only makes the teachings more powerful .

Im a beginner here and have enjoyed reading your posts. A lot of food for thought. A lot of thoughts to let go of as well. You mentioned that you have a grasp on Shikantaza but i'm not sure that it is something to be grasped. Shikantaza is not the only way but it is our way here at Treeleaf. It sounds like you have a lot of experience although my opinion is you need to chillax a little and that is just my opinion. Your posts seem to have an angry undertone (something I understand) and a question that was recently posed to me was why? Why do certain things make me angry? An issue for me maybe not you . I don't feel your posts are disruptive as you stated above im just not sure what position you hold here at Treeleaf. At some level we are all teachers and always beginners but can you simplify your point?. Not meaning to be disrespectful here just being honest and posting what I would say to anyone in this situation on the forum or in person. Maybe you think I'm just a zen-clinger?

Im a beginner here and have enjoyed reading your posts. A lot of food for thought. A lot of thoughts to let go of as well. You mentioned that you have a grasp on Shikantaza but i'm not sure that it is something to be grasped. Shikantaza is not the only way but it is our way here at Treeleaf. It sounds like you have a lot of experience although my opinion is you need to chillax a little and that is just my opinion. Your posts seem to have an angry undertone (something I understand) and a question that was recently posed to me was why? Why do certain things make me angry? An issue for me maybe not you . I don't feel your posts are disruptive as you stated above im just not sure what position you hold here at Treeleaf. At some level we are all teachers and always beginners but can you simplify your point?. Not meaning to be disrespectful here just being honest and posting what I would say to anyone in this situation on the forum or in person. Maybe you think I'm just a zen-clinger?

Gassho,

Daido

Thank you, Daido,

I thought I made a point here of where I stand or do not stand, what do you need for confirmation of said simplification? Does this matter need to go any further, and what would that help in making you feel better? In that posed question to you 'of why', you seem to be projecting what you are confronting me on, a little covered up rage/anger. Just let go, that is what I am trying to do, but here you are and for what reason, I will leave it up to you. I have nothing more to say on this matter, happy clinging.

Maybe I just have a simple mind. My responsibility though. Im good buddy. No need to attack. It's hard to discuss this stuff on a forum sometimes. Im better in person haha

Gassho

Daido

very true. on line, while quite absorbing, and can be a tremendously great vehicle communicating, but it is hard sometimes to get a real `feel without personal expressions and even body language, which plays a huge part in getting up close and personal. so right here you seemed to disrupt my feelings to want to get past this and move on, but in that process, we have become friends, and duality gets dropped for the oneness we really All are. all of us are impassioned with the process called Zen or just the process of letting everything go and just be, and i can speak for all of us in thanking these two teachers for putting up with some of this (me), and sometimes us with them, at times, and for the great platform they have furnished here for `the all-of-us.......... thank you!

hahahah I have to chime in here to because I really do get pissed when I post sometimes. "How could they have said that?" But it all comes from a good place. Just wait until you sew a Rakusu (unless you have already), that'll raise your hackles so to speak!

hahahah I have to chime in here to because I really do get pissed when I post sometimes. "How could they have said that?" But it all comes from a good place. Just wait until you sew a Rakusu (unless you have already), that'll raise your hackles so to speak!

i haven't, as i think you are responding to me. point me to the bad ol Rakusu.

we all get pissed, humanness, and why we the need for sitting until most of It simmers to almost nothing or a clearer awareness. living in Utard (a local joke from us progressives/liberals, because of the very conservative religiously zealot state here {very beautiful}) in and with the mormon culture here, they are very well known for what is called a passive-aggressive personality. they have been raised from day one, out of the shoot, by the washing of the mind in what some also call a cultish behavior, and this personality disorder teaches them to not show emotions, look good, always smile but most of all do not show irritation (Mitt Romney). so i post a lot in the Salt Lake Tribune, just came from there, and some of the battles of course get heated and even though they try to seem reasonable about their angry stances, there is anger simmering and boiling on the border of hate, its still there, you can only cover it with a thin vale. remember when we were first talking in personal email when i first got here, i said keep an eye on me, i may need to be bailed out sometimes, where in the hell were you when the last days as they went by hahahahahaheeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaa !? take care, Risho!

Before reading your response I read the Sutra, and after hearing of the monks self-annihilation, I seemingly had no feelings of a misguided teaching here. Yes, the large number who took this action was seemingly large, but maybe in the truer sense, it was just one... (Carl Jung: an `unconscious collective action, being a whole) It seems his lack of remorse or even taking notice, had served his lesson well. From my take, no-taking, or so called reasoning or lack there of, it seemed to me he was giving praise to, and acceptance of, unattractiveness. That seemed to be his lesson, unless I fell of the cliff [hello!]! In the monks taking this shaming to their death, the timing was perfect for their level of mindfulness at this time, their karma came to the fore, something to be worked out in the next time around and around, lesson served in their drive to be perfect and this perfection played out in the perfect timing of their deaths, no death. It was seemingly time for them to move on, get on the train as it leaving the station. A lesson of unmindfulness of the Big minded picture/perception, and to be worked through the next incarnation, of which could be continuous carnations for their level of awareness or lack of mindfulness.

A lesson on the perfection of non-perfection of Zen. In Suzuki’s The Marrow of Zen, he points to this... Those who can sit perfectly physically usually take more time to obtain the true `way of Zen, the actual feelings of Zen, the marrow of Zen. He also points to Dogen’s Shoshaku jushaku: to succeed wrong with wrong, or one continuous mistake... ie, one continuous mistake can also be Zen. It keeps you on the track always moving forward (my words)... This means so many years of ‘one single-minded effort.

There is no reaching It, no perfect `way to sit or be, that could also be the perfection of being 'filled up with emptiness'. There seemingly is only process, down the endless track of unattractiveness being beautiful and all fulfilling.... of nothing. In hoping this made no-sense in my senselessness!!

This question reminds me of my recent Judo test. When I was doing Harai-Goshi, the throw was good but I was stopping after the Kuzushi to fit in with the tsukuri perfectly. I was over thinking the throw instead of feeling it and letting the technique flow. Had I just thrown instantly after the getting them off balance and fitting in, the technique would been great instead of good. The dojang is mirror to what's inside ourselves, and I realized that I over think and second guess myself in other areas of my life. It was a great learning experience and this koan helped in pointing this out to me.

When I read the first line, "Where did you come from?" I jokingly said to myself, "Well Jizo, when a mommy and daddy love each other very much...". I thought it a joke, but after reading the commentary I felt that my not getting caught had been profound. Maybe, but it's not really important. Or is it?

When I read anything, koans, sutras, or a novel I try not to make the mistake or fall into the trap. I don't want to be embarrassed or seen as stupid. But perhaps the point is letting ourselves fall into the trap and learn a lesson that will live in our memories. In this instance, I noticed the trap, which is fine...but that shouldn't be seen as a necessarily a good thing. Learning from the lesson is what's important. Then drop the lesson and the question.

Breathe. Eat. Drink. Sleep. Sit.

Live.

Gassho,
Dosho

Ordained Priest -In-TrainingPlease take what I say with a grain of salt,
especially in matters of the Dharma!

I enjoyed reading your post, Dosho. The more I read Dogen, and these koans, the more I feel both stupid and embarassed. Of course, I can form general impressions about what is happening in the texts. The marrow seems to escape me, however, especially when learning the myriad history behind each reference and metaphor. A couple of years ago, I think this probably would have angered and upset me. As it stands right now, I just smile, shrug, and try to keep reading. The language of zen, although beyond language, feels like a third tongue to me. Who knows what'll happen in the future? For now, I've put down the hammer. That feels good.

I enjoyed reading your post, Dosho. The more I read Dogen, and these koans, the more I feel both stupid and embarassed. Of course, I can form general impressions about what is happening in the texts. The marrow seems to escape me, however, especially when learning the myriad history behind each reference and metaphor. A couple of years ago, I think this probably would have angered and upset me. As it stands right now, I just smile, shrug, and try to keep reading. The language of zen, although beyond language, feels like a third tongue to me. Who knows what'll happen in the future? For now, I've put down the hammer. That feels good.

Gassho,
Shujin

It could be said, as it seems the marrow escapes you not, and no need for the stupidity of embarrassment. Thank you for your post!