Comments on: Shouldn't Syracuse Be the No. 1 Overall NCAA Tournament Seed Over Kentucky?http://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/
Sports News and MediaWed, 01 Jul 2015 15:31:50 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: WER33http://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615761
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615761No, cuse should not be the overall #1 seed, at least not at this time. The premise of Cuse being #1 argument above is based on an RPI case that is based on SOS which is based on Rankings … RPI is self licking ice cream cone. If 63/65 AP voters and 31/31 ESPN voters think Kentucky is #1 then they are #1 and Syracuse is #2. RPI junkies shouldn’t have a problem with this because RPI is rooted in the rankings.
]]>By: plumloopyhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615760
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615760I just wanted to say this has been a great, civil discussion. Aside from people defending their “own” teams, no real mean-spirited bashing of others (except Duke, but that seems more with a wink).

I’m a Kentucky fan and while I think UK should be the #1 team, the rankings have more to do with the fact that Syracuse lost more recently, although I think they’ve been more vulnerable in late game situations. Either way, if Syracuse had lost in December and UK lost in February, the rankings might be reversed, although Syracuse was not in the pre-season #1 discussion–It was all UK and UNC, with the latter being given the edge. Syracuse had to fight its way to the top, UK was already there.

]]>By: OldSaltCityAcehttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615759
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615759Why are some trying to ‘de-legitimize’ Syracuse? Plain and simple; Newhouse Envy. Those sports casters attacking Syracuse simply are trying to make up for small diplomas.
]]>By: OldSaltCityAcehttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615758
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615758SU again leads the RPI and Power Rankings; RealTimeRPI.com Men’s College Basketball Rating Percentage Index (RPI) Ratings – A leading sports ratings and resources community on the Internet
The Orange have played, so far, 13 teams ranked 100 or worse, including 4 rated worse than 200; 1 team is ranked worse than 250; it is rated 291.
SU has played 9 top 50 teams. 4 of those are top 25 ranked. 2 are ranked 12 and 13.
Kentuc? Currently #3 behind Duke, UK has fluffed their schedule with 15 opponents ranked 100 or worse; 5 are rated worse than 200, with 4 of those worse than 250; 2 of these are rated 292 and 322.
UK has played 7 top 50 teams. 5 of those are top 25 rated. 3 are rated 5, 7, and 15.
Both teams have the she record. SU has played more quality teams. UK has played some teams rated higher than any SU opponent, and some teams lower ranked than any SU played.
There are 3 common opponents; St. Johns, Louisville, and Florida. Both SU and KU won each of their games against those teams. All 3 of those teams UK played at home. SU beat Florida at home, and St. Johns and Louisville on the road.
All in all, SU has played 14 teams with a realistic shot at beating them; UK has played 12.
Syracuse beat UL on the road, and demolished St. Johns on the road by a larger margin than UK could beat the Johnnies at home. Sure, UK beat Florida by 20, but the Florida UK beat was not as good as the one SU handled. And, one wonders if UK had to play the UL defense SU faced at UL, would they have escaped with a W?
So, I say, rank SU #1.
]]>By: Patrick Patterson-Kidd-Gilchristhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615757
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615757

Not a problem. No, I only looked at MSG games and also included the additional games I had previously mentioned for added context. Here are the other BCS Level Non-Con games Syracuse has played away from the Dome, but not at MSG over the same time frame:

2011-12: @NC State
2010-11: In Atlantic City against Georgia Tech and Michigan
2009-10: Florida in Tampa. Second half of the home-away series with Memphis was played at the Carrier Dome
2008-09: @ Memphis, second half of home and away series with Virginia
2007-08: @ Virginia
2006-07: weird away game at Canisius, also played Wichita St. and Baylor at home at the Carrier Dome
2005-06: another weird away game at Towson state
2004-05: I missed two MSG games against Miss State and Florida. Played another weird away game at Drexel
2003-04: @ St. Bonaventure, @ Missouri, Michigan State came to the Carrier Dome
2002-03: Georgia Tech and Missouri both came to the dome, @ Michigan State
2001-02: @ Albany has repayment to New York State helping to fix te Carrier Dome roof, @ Georgia Tech, @ Tennessee, NC State came to the dome.

So, all in all 16 away games not at MSG and 19 away games at MSG over an 11 year span. That’s 35 games in all for average of 3.5 games a year away from the Dome, not counting conference scheduling. For the percentage breakdown that’s 46% of non-conference road games away from MSG and 54% of them at MSG.

Again, not perfect scheduling, but it does help Syracuse and really college basketball as a whole. It gets Syracuse and Michigan State playing quite a bit, for instance. It also gets Syracuse and Florida playing quite a bit as well.

]]>By: TrinityPillshttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615755
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615755Bowersm – Thanks for that. It looks like it took some work. Before I go farther, I am not sure if I am reading your line correctly so tell me if I am wrong. It looks like what you are saying is Cuse has played 17 noncon games away from the Carrier Dome in the last 11 seasons and that three of these games was not played in MSG (Kansas and Florida in Missouri and Memphis in Tennessee). Is that right?
]]>By: Bowersmhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615754
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615754@TrinityPills
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to argue that either Kentucky or Syracuse shouldn’t be #1 seeds, even if every other team in the NCAA’s goes undefeated for the rest of the season and Kentucky and Syracuse both lose 2 more games apiece. That’s how far out in front they are of the pack.

I’m also not attempting to downplay Kentucky’s quality wins against Kansas or UNC, but I am attempting to put more light on the shoddy argument that they are simply significantly better than beating Marquette and Georgetown. Marquette and Georgetown are both quality teams with both players and coaches extremely familiar with Syracuse’s style of play. Neither of those teams are chopped liver and neither of those wins should be taken lightly (nor should Kentucky’s victories over UNC and Kansas).

]]>By: Bowersmhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615753
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615753@TrinityPills
Not including BE Tournament Games, here are your answers:
2011-12: 2, Va Tech and Stanford
2010-11: 1, Michigan State
2009-10: 2, California and North Carolina
2008-09: 0 (Syracuse played “neutral” games in Kansas City this year against Florida and Kansas and on the road at Memphis)
2007-08: 2, Ohio State and Washington (Lost game to Ohio State)
2006-07: 1, Oklahoma State (Lost)
2005-06: 2, Texas Tech and Florida (lost to Florida)
2004-05: 1, Oklahoma State (Lost)
2003-04: 0
2002-03: 1, Memphis (Lost)
2001-02: 2, Michigan State and Wake Forest

So, the facts (as I have not disputed) are that Syracuse does generally play 1-2 games at MSG during the course of a basketball season (not including games against St. John’s and the BE Tourney). What’s perhaps more interesting, at least to me, is that the bias that is present against Syracuse playing games there (the home court advantage, the fact that they never leave the state of NY, etc) is a recent uprising that has trended moreso since Syracuse has more frequently won games there. In other words, there seems to be an attempt to de-legitimize Syracuse’s accomplishments by various outlets, bloggers, etc. Again, I’d prefer to look at facts and statistics and the facts are that Syracuse plays alot of good quality teams. Sometimes they play them at MSG. Sometimes they play them at the Carrier Dome. Sometimes they play them at other neutral sites. Sometimes they play them in their home arena. I will never say that Syracuse plays a perfect schedule, but I will defend them when bloggers, fans, etc. accuse them of playing a poor schedule.

One more fact that often goes under reported is that smaller teams generally have a greater monetary incentive to play at the Carrier Dome early in the season as Syracuse is a tremendous draw in terms of crowd. These smaller teams will often make more for that one game than they will for any other game the entire season and they do it on the road. Syracuse also has a monetary incentive to stay closer to home for the same reason. So my question here is this: How is wrong for both schools to reap the fiscal advantage inherent to playing at the Carrier Dome?

]]>By: TrinityPillshttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615752
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615752Either way, as a Kentucky fan, I find it hard to argue too much with putting Cuse as the top seed. I think UK’s two best wins are considerably better (KU and UNC are stronger teams with better wins and their losses are easier to mitigate than MU and GU) but UK was beaten straight up on the road by a hot (at the time) team while Cuse lost on the road to a hot team without Cuse’s best interior presence. Point being, at full strength, Cuse hasn’t lost a game this season.

I think the S-Curve (snaking) is being utilized less and less each year thanks to the pod system. For this reason, as long as UK ends up in Louisville for rounds 2 and 3, I don’t care if they are first or second #1 seed because I don’t think that will ultimately affect who their #2 seed is as much as it might have in the past.

]]>By: TrinityPillshttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615751
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615751Bowersm – I would be interested to know how many of Syracuse’s “neutral site” games are played at MSG vs somewhere else? You seem pretty knowledgeable about their schedule, do you know this? Maybe it just seems like they play the vast majority of their noncon games between NYC and SYR when really they are making trips like FLA and KC frequently.
]]>By: Fit2Fighthttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615750
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615750Syracuse should care about having a 1 seed and ending up in the East bracket. Opening round games in Pittsburgh and then a sweet 16/ Elite 8 in Boston, should get them some big home court advantage.
]]>By: Bowersmhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615749
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615749@vajayjay redick
I happen to agree with you, and living in the vicinity of NYC can attest to the fact that outside of Uconn, Syracuse has a larger fan base than the other schools mentioned. My general point is that there seems to be a general attempt to prove that Syracuse doesn’t play anyone, anywhere when in fact that is incorrect. For instance, how can a person argue that Syracuse plays less than neutral court games when they play at MSG, but when Syracuse plays Kansas at Kansas City or Florida in Tampa that they are playing a neutral court game? Surely if MSG poses any level of an advantage to Syracuse, then Tampa and Kansas City must pose at least similar advantages to Florida and Kansas?
]]>By: vajayjay redickhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615748
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615748

In fact, teams like Uconn, Rutgers, Villanova, and Seton Hall are all significantly closer to NYC than Syracuse

It’s not just the travel distance – which of those schools has the largest fan base in NYC. I’m guessing its close between Cuse and UConn. SHU and Nova are small private schools, and most of Nova’s fan base is in Philly. Rutgers has stunk for so long that i doubt they make much of a dent. SU has been marketing themselves as “New York’s College Team” for the exact purpose of giving themselves more access to MSG and more fans in the NYC area in general.

]]>By: Bowersmhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615747
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615747@Whereswallace
I agree 100% that there is ostensibly zero difference between playing a team ranked 150 and a team ranked 250 to a top 10-15 team’s win probability. As such, you make a valid argument that the lower teams played on a top teams schedule should essentially be smoothed out in any statistical analysis.
That being said, and moving away from stats and simply into facts/mythbusting, I’d like to reference the quote you quote from @cursedcleveland: “Cuse’s non-conference schedule routinely plays games that can’t really lose. When they go non-conference, most are on neutral sites (as opposed to OSU who’s played at Kansas and at Florida in recent years, Syracuse plays those games in Kansas City and in Tampa). Huge difference.” I’d again like to measure the difference between a team from Central NY (again, not NYC, but 4 hours away from NYC. In fact, teams like Uconn, Rutgers, Villanova, and Seton Hall are all significantly closer to NYC than Syracuse. The time distance from Syracuse to NYC is comparable to that as from Boston to NYC. Would anyone argue that Boston teams enjoy a “home court advantage” by playing close to home in NYC?)

Anyway, would anyone like to make the honest argument that they believe that Syracuse didn’t play real road games when playing Florida in Tampa and Kansas in Kansas City? Here’s a list of teams that Syracuse has played away from the Carrier Dome out of conference since the 2008-2009 season:

This is not to paint the picture that Syracuse has played a perfect schedule, but it is meant to illustrate that the fact that Syracuse doesn’t shy away from playing good teams. There seems to be a perception that all Syracuse does is play Marshall, Tulane, and Cornell but that perception is different from reality.

Perhaps my final point is that when we are attempting to quantify what teams have done, we often attempt to think about what they will do. That’s a natural reaction, but it is also wrong. In many aspects of analysis we are attempting to look at what may happen (the purchase of a stock for instance) as opposed to what has happened. Measurement, however, is much different from projection and in the case of seeding we are 100% beholden to what has happened as opposed to what we believe will happen. As such, it behooves us all to look at fact rather than myths and statistics rather than beliefs.

]]>By: Bowersmhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615746
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615746Look, the RPI sucks, everyone takes that as a given. You know what else sucks? Using words like “much more impressive” when comparing four victories by two teams. How much more impressive? Why? After stating that beating UNC and Kansas was far more impressive than beating Marquette and Georgetown you go on to state that Kansas is a considerably better team now than they were when Kentucky beat them. I’m sorry, but 1) I’m not sure that beating Kansas and UNC is either more impressive or MUCH MORE impressive than beating Georgetown and Marquette. 2) It’s terrible to make no attempt to actually quantify how much more “impressive” a victory is when you are, in fact, attempting to make a rational statement MEASURINGsomething. Does anyone else see what’s wrong with this aspect of the argument?
]]>By: Dr Eric Strattonhttp://thebiglead.com/2012/02/14/shouldnt-syracuse-be-the-no-1-overall-ncaa-tournament-seed-over-kentucky/#comment-615745
http://thebiglead.com/?p=160232#comment-615745Just asking. Where does St. Mary’s fit into this discussion?

Krzyzewksi is the master of this. Don’t schedule too many “loseable” games in the non-conf and avoid on-campus road games if at all possible, but make sure the sacrificial lamb teams aren’t so bad they kill your SOS. He knows how to use Duke’s stature as a team casual fans in big cities, particularly in the Northeast, will buy tickets to see.

I could go either way, but I do think Syracuse has gamed the system when it comes to beefing up SOS. While Cuse plays enough crappy teams that also aren’t totally horrendous, other teams are at least playing games they can actually lose. That’s the difference. Cuse’s non-conference schedule routinely plays games that can’t really lose. When they go non-conference, most are on neutral sites (as opposed to OSU who’s played at Kansas and at Florida in recent years, Syracuse plays those games in Kansas City and in Tampa). Huge difference.

Give this man a prize! Syracuse has completely worked the system this year and gotten lucky that teams Marshall, Manhattan, GW, and Bucknell have had good years for them. There was no way Syracuse was losing those games at home, but now those wins look good. Please. What’s the difference between Cuse playing those teams and Kentucky playing Portland, Samford and Lamar? Apparently 40 spots in the SOS. What a joke. Kentucky is by far the overall number 1 seed. Just watch these two teams play.

Let’s be fair, UCONN played in two of the worst three titles games ever and one of them was last year. The last two title games have been basketball abortions.

Also true. It’s the Butler syndrome. That was the least talent on the court for an NCAA Final since? My guess is sometime in the 1950’s. Early 60’s had OSU Havlicek and Lucas and UC with Oscar. Then the UCLA dynasty. And every final in the 80’s had awesome talent. Blech…