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Is There Any Point in Dating an Alpha Male?

Hi Evan, This is a curiosity more than a dating advice question. I’ve read several of your posts that suggest that charismatic alpha males do not make good partners. I also read on HuffingtonPost.com a hilariously titled article (in response to the Anthony Weiner scandal), “Should Women Go Ugly?” again, suggesting that women should steer clear of handsome alpha types who are quite likely to ultimately let them down. So my question is, what happens to all these alpha guys? Do they marry? Will they remain single forever? If the conventional wisdom is for women to avoid relationships with them, is it in their (the alpha guys) best interest to skip the so-called American dream, avoid marriage and children and just bounce from one short-term relationship to another? Or is it possible for such an alpha guy to create a meaningful long-term relationship? And if so, what type of woman would be able to create a happy life with a man like this? Based on your advice and that of others I’ve read, it seems that no woman should attempt to deal with these guys. –Sara

Sara,

Right before I got married, I turned for advice to Dr. Pat Allen, therapist, Los Angeles legend, and author of “Getting to I Do”.

Pat is probably 75 years old and delightfully curmudgeonly. She lives in a very black and white world and has a bunch of catchy aphorisms that she trots out when she sees common dating dynamics – especially for women with an excess of masculine energy. I turned to her because we’d met on a panel once before and because I respected her experience and wisdom.

I told her that I wasn’t sure that I felt what I was supposed to feel for the woman who I was considering proposing to. I didn’t have that obsessive, breathless, “I must have you” sentiment. I didn’t miss her madly when she went on a business trip. I was just plain happy – in a healthy, fun, nurturing, supportive relationship that had no obvious flaws apart from what was buzzing through my head: “I don’t have the FEELING I think I should have!”

My thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets.

Pat asked me: “Are you a career man or a man with a career?” (This is one of those aphorisms.) I told her that my career was not just a job, but kind of a calling. Thus, she determined that I was a career man. She told me that, as a career man, since my job would come first, I could get married and be perfectly content, but I’d always be longing for more. She finally concluded that, based on my profile, I would probably cheat on my wife a few times.

And that was our session.

Yes, Dr. Allen’s contention, essentially, was that if you’re an alpha male, your natural tendency is to put your needs first, to conquer, to dominate, to spread your seed, and to hope to not break too many hearts along the way. In this regard, she’s somewhat correct.

And in this regard, I realized, I’m not a pure alpha male.

It’s more important to me to be a good husband and father than it is to pursue my selfish interests at all costs. If anything, I have a fierce ethical streak (which surfaces here from time to time) which is stronger than my thirst for money or new women. I would not suppose that everyone is similarly driven by doing the right thing. After all, having character involves tradeoffs, and alpha males most certainly don’t want limits put on their freedoms.

So, to bring this back to you, Sara, my thoughts on alpha males is that while they may remain the most attractive candidates out there, as a rule, they tend to be bad long-term relationship bets. I would guess that most women who’ve gone for them would concur with this observation. Alphas needs come first. Their schedule comes first. They may try to spend money on you but it doesn’t compensate for their lack of attention, affection and understanding. They rarely make you feel safe and secure. But you hold on because he’s such an intoxicating catch. Make no mistake, he RELIES on his charms to allow you put up with all his bullshit.

As always, when we’re talking about alpha males, we’re talking about a sliding scale. I may have the drive and temperament and ego of an alpha, but I don’t indulge it at all costs. I stop work at 6. I don’t work on weekends or take clients on Fridays. I apologize frequently. If my wife ever needs me to sacrifice for the family, the answer is yes. That’s where my value system lies.

If you’re going to go for such a guy, the thing to look out for is what his long-term values are. Does he WANT to be a good husband and father? Does he SACRIFICE his needs for yours? Does he put YOU first or does he always have to win? There ARE alpha males who do that, but there are more who do not.

From what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk – but very few actually get the long-term reward.

So it’s not that it’s impossible to find one of these guys who wants to settle down with you – it’s that alpha males are inherently high risk/high reward.

And, from what I’ve seen as a dating coach, most women are willing to take the risk – but very few actually get the long-term reward.

As for what type of woman you have to be to get this guy, in general, I’d say someone who is supportive of him. Someone who is cool with his hours. Someone who doesn’t nag him all the time about his job. Someone who can listen to him and provide a fun change of pace when he finally clears space to be 100% present. This is really what my book Why He Disappeared is all about – being in your feminine energy – open, positive, receptive, nurturing.

Still, being the ideal woman for an alpha male isn’t always enough – not if the alpha male doesn’t have a strong moral code and doesn’t fundamentally value monogamy as much as he values conquering new women and new businesses.

SOMEONE gets the alpha male to marry her, all right, but I can assure that she is not always happy with what she gets.

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Comments:

I read an article recently that women are all over Alpha males as of late. That is has to do a lot with TV, and the whole macho guy image. But i like the angle of this. Because at the end of the day, it really is “to each HER own.”

Not always. Again, my ex boyfriend was very much an alpha male and he had TONS of very deep-seated insecurity issues, constant need to be right, maintaining very close contact with an ex-girlfriend when I made it clear how uncomfortable I was with this, most likely was cheating on me, etc.
It really depends. I am sure there are some beta males who can be real jerks and I have certainly met a few. But my overwhelming experience has been that the alpha males I have been involved with, have been extremely insecure and even abusive, and I’d just rather avoid the issue entirely.

To Teri #6:
What you are “attracted” to has little to do with how good a partner they will be. It often has to do with who your parents were and how screwed up you might be. I was always “attracted” to very silent, mysterious and, in the end, unavailable guys. Guess what? My father has never given me his approval.
Once I realized that they type of guy I was always initially attracted to was never going to be there for me or give me what I wanted, I tried to retrain my attraction and be open to people who would give me what I wanted in the end.
And it worked! Married at the ripe old age of 41 to a wonderful guy.

i personally dont like alpha male . I have a strong personality and everytime i dated a so called ” alpha male ” , we clashed! sex was great , but anything outta bedroom was a disaster! I hated their gut and they hated me even more! to me, they are self -oriented individuals ; that doesnt mean they are bad people, but as Evan said , they certainly dont put YOUR needs first. your education, your job, your nice house , or fancy car,,,, they could care less about it. the ONLY thing they care about is how pretty you are and if you gonna make them and their life your priority. IMO, the only women who can make it happen with alpha male are the ones who dont have any alpha trait in their chromosome.

Ashley, what are the traits of alpha female. I was raised in a traditional society, where men were alphas in Russia, so instinctively i look for alpha males, yet it seems i clash with them. But i also don’t respect Betas or men who have no ambitions…

We want alpha men because we want alpha children. We have to work smarter at relationships with alpha men, they certainly keep us on our toes! We don’t always come first with them, but we’re expected to be available to them when they want us. As long as you’re not a stick-in-the-mud and are up for it, you can have the love and adventure of a lifetime! It ends when you don’t want to climb over the next mountain with him.

The true alpha males I know are far from abusive and controlling. Those are the traits of weak men. Alphas like to hide their sensitivities and vulnerabilities, but they do not need to overcompensate for their lack of character with power trips. If an alpha male chooses YOU to be his mate, it’s because he trusts you and has confidence in you.

I think every seems to forget is that the only version of ‘alpha’ that the manosphere adheres to is not what you personally think personifies an ‘alpha’.. but is only based on the sexual choices of women. ie. those men who have women tripping over themselves to sleep with him are alpha whether you like him or not.
you can wax poetic over what traits you find desirable in a man, but the proof is in the pudding more often than not that women continue to seek sexual relationships with men who display ‘game’ attributes and keep beta men on the side as last resorts when nature timeclock goes boom.
a true alpha knows he’s an alpha. a pua behaves like one, yet yields similar results. everyone else on the sidelines is beta to zeta.

That’s an interesting point of view, Mike. As a dedicated people watcher and wildlife observer, I see it differently.

The majority of women go after the Flash, the Players, the Decoys totally missing the true Alpha Males. They may be testosterone driven, but they are not alphas. These men lead all the lesser women away from the true alpha males, who will be sitting back watching it all with big grins on their faces.

You can spot the true Alpha Males by observing how other men behave, respond and interact with them.

Not discounting your hypothesis, but then you are saying that at the end of the night the true alpha’s after having witnessed the PUA’s take the ‘dregs’ of society they simply finish their conversations with the women that are left and go home to self service themselves?

Again, definition of alpha is a man who is at the top of the sexual social pecking order of women. The manosphere definition still stands unchallenged because the women have still chosen either the ‘true’ alpha to go home with, or the Roosh’s, Tucker Max’s, and other game players/pua’s.

Again so we are clear, ALPHA = sexually active/dominant. Beta to Zeta = going home to Palmina. You can say someone like Tucker Max is hideous, vile, has no alpha features or characteristics, but he has certainly created a very high female body count on his bedpost. Since he has zero problems getting laid and has women beating each other with sticks to try and bed him… he in the eyes of the manosphere and Game theory is an alpha only due in how women sexually choose to interact with him, not what men or women think of him personally. Real alpha’s also have no issue getting sex whenever they choose, they just probably have a better class and selection of women to go home with.

The real alpha males did not arrive with the pack. They arrived later. They was busy with payroll so Tucker Max and the Boys have money to blow on the girls with no self control. They were securing the business for the weekend. Business before pleasure for the true alphas, and they aren’t going to miss out on quality women. To the untrained eye, they may appear to be a completely separate pack of males, but careful observation will show the subtle interaction and deference.

Yeah, in manosphere and gaming, he who gets laid the most is alpha. He who gets laid the most is the player with the biggest bag of tricks. That’s coyote, not alpha.

Alpha traits are intelligence, power, and control. There are physiological components to alpha status, too. I’ll not get into that here.

All well and good. But for all the beta’s to zeta’s watching, who do you think they are going to emulate if they’re constantly going home alone?

There will be a slew of ‘Where have all the good men gone’ books in the coming years, begging men to ‘man up’… but if women keep rewarding the wrong men, and ignoring the good guys on the sidelines, they’re either going to leave the game all together, or learn GAME and exact a toll later on. Ignore them in their 20’s, they’ll ignore you in your 30’s.

The current environment can only be corrected by women since it is their sexual pre-selection that is the driving force behind the marketplace. You’ve always been the gatekeepers and men adapt to the times. Always have, always will.

I just entered the dating world this last year after being out for 20 some years. My question, Who neutered the men? I am finding good men, but they’re Old School and not online. I go to where the men are.

Who do you emulate? Where are the dads to teach men how to be a man? Why not be yourself? Embrace your awesomeness! What kind of women are you looking for? Stupid drama queens who lack self control? Then emulate the players. Buck-toothed bimbos with no brains? Buy a Corvette.

I don’t know your age or what area the country you live or if you’re metro or rural. I have two young adult daughters that are not married. They are smart, successful beautiful women. Both have given up on dating jock types. The eldest is dating a friend from high school, a dweebish medical examiner. The 22 year old is in California and gave up on dating white boys there because they won’t treat her right. Her bf of 2 years is a Salvadoran welder who treats her like a precious treasure. He totally respects her and is a very nice young man. I have 1 daughter left in high school, she is autistic. She hangs with the jocks and they are protective of her.

So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth.

We aren’t into games, lines or bullshit. If you show disrespect, a negative attitude or whine, you’ll get a smackdown, laughed at or worse, you’ll get IGNORED. (or look that will freeze your liver)

I have no idea what dumb women are looking for besides getting played and layed.

So Mike, take your eyes off the players and the silly women who flock on them, shift your thinking from instant gratification to a relationship. Dump your negative thinking and go to your happy place.

When you are out on your woman hunting trip be observant and emulate the true alpha male, even if you’re not one. Show confidence in yourself. Again, ignore the players and their silly women.

Do you see the nice looking women who are NOT flocking on the players? There should be at least 1 or 2 of them if not more, and they appear to be alone. She also appears to be ignoring ALL the men. She’s not. She’s waiting for alphas. Observe to see what she does. Does a man come back to her? Does she move positions? Observe several at once. Choose your target, circle and approach.

Be a gentleman. Be intelligent. Be positive. Smile, and not like a fool, either. No cheesy tired pick-up lines, no sexual references. Say something intelligent that needs a response. Introduce yourself and ask her name then join her. Don’t ask permission, you’re an alpha. Offer her something. Ask questions to learn more about her, likes, hobbies. Don’t blabber about yourself except commonalities. Keep the time flowing by asking if she would like to do something else besides what you’re doing right then. If you’re sitting, would she like to walk, if standing, go sit, noisy, find a quiet spot. Be a gentleman.

At the end of your time together is when you ask if she will go out with you and ask for her phone number. Nail a date and activity down and don’t be wishywashy know what you want to do. Have plan A and B ready to pull out of your pocket, and you WILL call her to chat within 2 days.

However this is the one conundrum facing most men in the dating world today… especially the younger more impressionable men, not the 35+ that have survived the battlefield.

“So what are smart NICE girls looking for in a man? This family of smart single women, ages 17, 22, 27 and 53 are looking for gentlemen of integrity. Men who are intelligent with a positive attitude and good character and an easy smile. We don’t care what you do for a living, as long as you love what you do and you do it well. We don’t care what you say, only how you say it and that it’s the truth. ”

That’s what we’ve all been led to believe and told throughout the ages, but even if you can say with absolute certainty this applies to you and your family, it is the experience of scores of men that what women say they want is not what they actually want. The Roosh’s and Tucker Max’s of the world would have no success if this formula was the golden rule. But it isn’t, and time and again many decent guys get to watch the girl they’re interested in go home with the asshat.

And it’s not all just dumb or silly women, there are many educated, well to do women that are just caving into their carnal instincts for these gamers, and guys are observant if anything and will extrapolate that if x gets y easily, why bother doing z?

I can say with absolute certainty that Ladybug’s comment apply to me. And Mike, I feel that many men don’t look deeper than the surface with looking at women (the crazy hot chick). I’m not a head turner but I think I’m pretty cute. But I’m laid back, easy going, supportive. the very things guys say they want. . . . and yet.

Read what they think of women. Read how they treat women. Read about how easy they get women to drop their panties. All types, all stripes, no discrimination, good girls, bad girls, virgins, sluts, etc… they can game them all.

So if women give it up to them without batting an eyelash, why would a sane man believe that playing ‘nice’ will win the day, especially when they’ve been rejected for playing nice and watch the woman then proceed into the bed of an asshat. Monkey see, monkey do.

There are men that don’t look beneath the surface it’s true. You’ll find most of these guys at the bars and clubs. The ones you overlook, during daily life, the ones that don’t stick out because they’re not loud obnoxious alphas, are the ones that do look beneath the surface. Stop going to bars and start striking up a convo with a guy at the supermarket.

I don’t know what you look like JustMe but if you send me a pic 😉 ill give you an honest assessment. But if you look at the following image, hands down you will find most men will choose cute over hot/sexy, ESPECIALLY if the guy is looking for good quality characters. The sexy/hot one, sure she’ll turn heads, but all a guy will want is to try her in bed and not much else. That’s my own generalization.. YMMV. So check the pic and see if you compare somewhat.

And this alpha thing is useless unless it is clearly defined. In nature you would expect an alpha to be leading the pack. Therefore a man OTHER men look up to.

I once went to a speed date event. A guy comes in wearing jeans, unbuttoned lumber jack type shirt and a very loose black tie. Think clown. He is however fairly attractive. He proceeds to stick his name tag on his ass.
Cue arrogant swagger as a finishing touch.

The guy I’m standing next to says “what a complete XXXX”. Yes I say, but this is the sort of guy the women are going to go for.

There were plenty of educated, experienced, sensible women at the event. They all went for the guy with his name on his ass. He was very successful.

So what are relationship oriented guys supposed to learn from this Ladybug ?

My first BF was a beta and the most wonderful man I’ve ever met. Kind, faithful, smart, fun, committed. He was crazy about me and I loved him too. He didn’t have the macho attitude and therefore, he couldn’t stand up to his boss and ask for a raise when he had been working in the company for 10 years. He couldn’t stand up to his own mom and tell her to get off his back. He had been in college for 10 years b/c he lacked the drive to work and study and do everything. He was depressed b/c his work, his studies, and his family wasn’t what he wanted and he didn’t know how, or couldn’t change anything. I tried my best to be supportive but after 9 years of this I just left, I couldn’t take it anymore.
My second BF was an alpha. He wasn’t depressed, he had a job he loved, he had the drive to do everything he wanted. He came strongly after me and we dated for 4 years and half. He claimed he wanted a wife for the rest of his life, and asked me if I would live with him and have babies. He was never so attentive as the beta. He loved me in a colder and more distant way, but he had his moments of sweetness. I preferred this relationship. He was the leader and I like that. Until commitment turned sort of unavoidable and he ended up dumping me arguing that he just “didn’t love me like he used to”. As far as I know he didn’t cheat on me.
So what I learned is that both types have pros and cons. The alpha broke my heart so badly and coldly that the whole relationship seems like a big lie now. I don’t want another like him. But beta males just make me feel like I am the most driven, focused and strongest in the relationship and I don’t like feeling like a man or feeling like I have a son instead of a couple. I am currently single and I don’t know what I’m going to do.

sounds like you should grab a copy of Athol Kay’s Married Man Sex Life Primer and read it.

When you do find a man you like, Alpha or Beta, doesn’t matter. Then leave the book lying around and he will (if he has any shred of desire for self improvement) naturally gravitate back to a more balanced male.

Okay, my two cents. Alpha males are just exciting because you get drawn into their lives and think that your conquered someone challenging. In my opinion, most of alphas were very insecure and once the initial “love” wears off you see undercover a scared, insecure boy with lots of emotional issues stemming from his childhood. I try not to date alphas anymore because i put myself first and i expect a man to put my needs on the same page as his…not behind everything else. If alpha changes for me, i’ll give him a go, if not good riddance.

Too many Game concepts in derive from spurious observations and cargo-culting phenomenon.

Game is largely a myth – a popular fiction synthesized to embellish male success with a basis in real quantities of evolutionary value(like physical attractiveness – which is the only remaining determinant quantity of evolutionary value, when long term mating benefits are taken out of the equation).

The quest for a practically learned skill that can ‘bend’ female choice is a fools errand, because in order for evolution to work opportunistically, it must cull (in particular)male frequencies every generation.

My issue is not with ‘game’ per se, but that it should not be seen to represent a trivially reproducible skill, that can be naively disentangled from its dependencies.

Thus, many observations that seemingly confirm ‘game’, are observing nothing more than spurious correlations.

For example, a key premise of game relies upon ‘confidence’.

By any meaningful definition, confidence is not an a priori quantity – it cannot be disentangled from it’s dependencies, so confidence exists only so far as to say something about these other variables.

Thus, when one observes confidence correlated with a given outcome, it can only speak to a dependency.

It doesn’t just spontaneously organize within an empirical vacuum, and thus cannot be trivially acquired outside of ‘experience’.

So, what gamers(and their apologists) are truly observing (but not intelligent enough to infer), is not that women are attracted to ‘confidence’ per se(as an independent variable).

But, rather that the men who tend to be successful with women(ie. for whatever reasons justify females to signal their receptivity), also have a high confidence(justified expectation) of future(continued) success.

Still, many have observed a palpable female tendency to preferentially mate with abusive, and promiscuous male delinquents.

This tendency is real because it has been biased by evolutionary success(and is thus adaptive in the near evolutionary frame)

So, when we observe that females privilege such males, it is not that females find these traits attractive per se, but rather that they are selecting for certain desirable traits that have become correlated with negative ones – this is their dilemma.

In fact, females will be under evolutionary pressure to accomodate such males, as male offspring will tend to share the same inherent advantages as their fathers, resulting in high-fitness male offspring for the mothers(and thus a likewise evolutionary advantage).

Females who tend to reject such males will be at a relative disadvantage(producing less prolific offspring), and thus evolution will tend to limit the frequency of such females over time to the point of rarity.

To summarize, there are evolutionary reasons why female choices tend in the opposite direction from ‘nice guys'(females who privilege ‘nice guys’ – by the conventional meaning of the term – incur an evolutionary disadvantage for the increased prospect of breeding fitness-handicapped sons – thus evolution will limit the frequency of such outcomes accordingly).

@ Zaq

It would appear that the whole ‘Alpha-male’ meme no longer describes status interactions within prevailing human societies.

This is because, in large organized populations(as opposed to small ‘troops’), network reciprocity marginalizes the influence of dominant males through the net ‘inclusive fitness’ contributions of status inferiors.

In small ‘in-groups'(ie. typical of early hominid ‘troops’), there is a strong quid-pro-quo dynamic that facilitates status concessions in favor of a dominant male(as the success/prosperity of the group is more strongly weighted for individual competencies).

In large co-operative populations, the contributions of any single male becomes increasingly marginal(as do the status concessions in terms of the limiting resource in ecologically prosperous male populations – sex).

The point is that male dominance in small vs. large (co-operative)populations entails subtle, but material differences(ie.
density dependence), with implications for the ethological context which formed the basis of the ‘alpha’ convention.

So, the whole ‘Alpha male’ meme is a spurious concept when applied to human mating practices(in contemporary human societies), where mate access is no longer a function of subordinate status concessions in any obvious way.

@ Paragon – I disagree with some of your premise. Your description of evolutionary process most accurately describes that most recent epoch of human evolution wherein social pressures have become the primary driving force behind mate choice over natural selection. A man being both attractive and abusive have no reason to be genetically tied. In point of fact, societies which are most abusive and restrictive of women tend to have attractive women and ugly men.
I posit instead that we are experiencing the effects of not alpha traits, but the increase of the aggregate of genes producing the spectrum of psychopathology. Self centered to the extreme, viewing other humans as property and treating them as resource objects. This is the society of the conqueror’s mind, kings and emperors abusing others under the guise of ‘divine right’. Sexual access is either forced, or ‘given’ as reward for maintaining the rulership status quo. I posit this is the modern model where men are drawing the ‘alpha/beta’ conclusions, rather than naturally occurring populations.
Females are not under evolutionary pressure to accept abusive males, but under social pressure. Evolutionarily, an abusive male would undermine the structure of a social group, and a female who is continually stressed and physically injured is more likely to destroy her own offspring, is less capable of caring for them, and so they are more likely to be lower functioning. However, in a militaristic society where men are destined to be sacrificed in wartime, abusiveness is highly desirable, and dysfunctional men are best of all because they can be coerced and manipulated into turning their emotional turmoil against the ‘enemy’. And this process of psycopathic traits being heralded as the ideal and indeed, the norm, perpetuates war, which perpetuates dysfunction and abuse.
Women are ‘trained’ to accept dysfunctional men so that the number of ‘expendable’ humans is maintained, and the men can be ‘rewarded’ with easy access to sexual partners. This is not a genetic tendency, but a learned one.

I really think human relationships are not that complicated. If we see something physically attractive (that shows good genes, biology, etc…) we will lust after him or her, even if we are married.

Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers. These inspirations are good an all, but to be honest we are more animalistic than we like to believe.

All this stuff about alpha behaviors does make a guy more attractive because the behavior shows good genes. (high testosterone)

In reality I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing and then dwelling on it for years and letting it affect their past relationships.

Jonathan said: (#54)“Marriage and monogamy is a ‘system’ started by french philosophers.”

Really? On a practical level, most Babylonians, Assyrians and ancient Egyptians practiced monogamous marriages. Some ancient Hebrew sects explicitly stated that monogamy was to be the rule for all marriages.

Jonathan said: (#54)“I think it is just sad most people spend their lives worrying about these relationships with other animals that have a 99 percent chance of failing”

Do you have a source for claiming that there is 99% failure rate for monogamy, or is that just hyperbole?

“This final quarter had around 50 partners each which pushed teh average to 9. In all these cases, there were no important differences between men and women. There were as many promiscuous woman as promiscuous men. There is no suggestion here of a few Alpha males having sex with all the women. The promiscuous men and the promiscuous women find each other. (and probably deserve each other).”

“Basically, this survey predicted the current view that 20% of people get 80% of the sex. But, there are no mythical sexual
Alphas stealing sexually available women from the mythical Betas.”

The problem I have is not so much with the data(which is an anomaly), but with interpreting it in a way that preserves expectations of sexual dimorphism in human mating.

Thus, if we assume that mating distributions are equivalent(despite a burden of contrary indications, following from acute asymmetries in both mate preference and choice), it must be because some population of females are (somehow)monopolizing an equivalent population of choice males.

Since males are known to have both a higher optimal mating rate, and to make qualitative concessions in favor of mate
quantity(in resolving their higher mating rate) – the only agreeable intrepretation I can fathom, is one where equally high value females are making *extraordinary* concessions in order to monopolize high value males.

If so, female sexual conservatism is saying more about their limited access to choice males, than conservative tendencies,
per se(ie. lacking opportunities to mate with high value males, they would rather be abstinent).

In this case, it is the very *awareness* of high value males, that limits female access for lesser males.

Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.

I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?

“Fenix had a really good post. I’m suprised no one offered a response. This scenario is one that many of us…male and male are confronted with.

I would like to add my concern that it really does seem that now that me and my girlfriends are consciously trying to shift our attention to more of the beta males (after many alpha burns), our common complaint has changed from…why is he lying or cheating (insert other horrible behaviors) to Ugh…why does he lack drive or ambition…and even if he seems to have that ambition…why is it that he’s less of a ‘get it done’ kind of guy?”

First off, I don’t know how you are defining ‘Alpha’ – most sexually successful males I observe are conspicuous failures
aside from mating(ie. think metro-sexual, club-hopping, indigent gym-rats).

Secondly, just because he doesn’t conform to your notions of achievement, doesn’t mean he isn’t ambitious, or driven – he may just hold different goals, or values, that you are failing to appreciate.

Interestingly, I don’t know of ANY man, who holds a prospective mate to exacting standards of achievement.

I, for one, would dismiss any women who held me to such a standard as irredeemably superficial.

I personally did not like this post because it generalizes about such a large group of people.

I am married to an alpha male and have been for 10 years and I am extremely happy. Sure, he’s dominant, successful, ambitious, powerful, and confident. However, those qualities also allow him to be fiercely protective of me and our children.

As a typical alpha male, he’s a fantastic provider. But he also views being a good provider as being about more than fiscally providing. Andrew (hubby) views being a truly good provider as providing emotionally and physically as well.

Yes, he make sure that our family has everything we need and we are fortunate enough for him to be able to take me to the opera and out to nice dinners on date nights and to take our children to Europe and to send them to the best schools.

But he also makes sure to provide for us emotionally. He always comes home at night in time for dinner (he believes that family dinners are important) so that he can have dinner with us (although as the alpha male, he definitely brings home a giant pile of work to take care of after they’re in bed and we’re all asleep), ask our children what they learned in school, and help them with their homework. He also makes time each evening to talk to me. He often gets in bed with me, cuddles me, looks into my eyes, and asks me how I am, how I’m feeling, how my day went, what’s on my mind lately, and if there’s anything I need him to do.

He is an alpha male, dominant, and head of the household, but he views that as him having a responsibility to put us first and take care of us. He’s the leader and he puts first the people he’s leading.

When I’m upset, he takes it as his responsibility as a provider to make sure that I am cheered up and he’ll do what he can to make me smile or make me feel better.

He has never cheated (I do admit that I have to say “as I know of”) and believes that affairs are a sign of being a failure as a man and as a provider.

Every night, he tucks our children in, and then secures the house to make sure that the alpha male’s family can sleep safe. He walks around the outside of the house, making sure that no one put anything that could help them get into a window. He then secures all of the windows from the insides, secures the doors, and then sets up the security system.

He also has a habit of sleeping on the side of the bed closest to the door because he likes to feel like he’s even slightly between me and any danger that might come in.

You can probably understand, Evan, why I may feel offended at you saying that alpha males tend to be poor longterm romantic partners. This man, although dominant, confident, assertive, and always searching for his next challenge (and a soaring sex drive to boot), also spends every Saturday morning rolling around on the floor playing with our children, taking us to the park, coming home during his lunch break to take me out for lunch, planning date nights, and more.

He was also once put into the hospital when he put himself between me and someone who was threatening me and he did so without fear or a second’s hesitation.

I wonder how in the world that can be a poor romantic partner? To me this sounds like an angel God sent me.

Now I don’t want to bash beta males either. Just like I’m offended when you say that such a large group of men aren’t good romantic partners, I wouldn’t want to make such sweeping statements about a group of millions of men of men either.

There are some qualities beta males have that my alpha male doesn’t have. Beta males, for example, show a bit more sensitivity. Andrew shows a ton of sensitivity for my feelings (and as the leader he does think that’s and important sign of being a good leader and husband) but he has trouble expressing his own feelings and prefers to keep them inside of himself.

I definitely sometimes crave to feel his emotion and to share any pain that he may have so that I can help him to conquer it as a team. He has never cried in front of me and I sometimes crave that, crave the opportunity to comfort him.

But an alpha male rarely shows that sort of emotion.

There are obviously great qualities to be found in beta males as well.

This is why I think it is unfair to say that a large group of men, millions of men of a certain general type, do or do not tend to be good romantic partners.

There are alpha males who are FANTASTIC husbands (like mine) and there are ones who are horrible. And I’m just as sure that there are beta males who make fantastic husbands (like you) yet beta males who make horrible ones.

Instead of saying that one large group of millions of men do or do not tend to be good husbands, isn’t it more fair to just judge each man’s strengths as a romantic partner and weaknesses romantic partner as they come?

Let’s not cross out an entire group of millions of men and let’s instead be feminine woman, open, receptive, and accepting to each man and open to learning about his strengths and weaknesses without jumping to unfair conclusions about his character without first giving him a chance to show you what he’s all about.

After all, I never turned down a beta male or an alpha male automatically and I’ve had both great and horrible romantic partners in both groups.

I didn’t have the patience to read your entire comment, so forgive me. Just understand that my clients are alpha females. Such women are rarely good fits for alpha males because they’re too alike. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not that alpha males are pure evil; they’re just better suited for a different type of woman than my typical alpha client.

I’m glad your husband is an angel sent from God; that doesn’t change the fact that alpha males are also objectively high risk because of their conqueror mentality. Since you’re beta (“my husband is the head of household”) you found a good fit for you. I can assure you; most women here would not want a man who is “head of household.

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