Inside the Phillies with MLB.com beat writer Todd Zolecki

Let’s Get Going

The second half of the 2011 season starts tonight with Vance Worley.

It continues this weekend with Cole Hamels and Kyle Kendrick.

It will be interesting to ask Charlie Manuel or Rich Dubee this afternoon if Cliff Lee would have pitched Sunday against the Mets had he not pitched Tuesday in the All-Star Game. I say that because before the break Dubee announced Worley would pitch Friday and Hamels would pitch Saturday. He left Sunday’s starter TBA, indicating they wanted to see what happened at the All-Star Game.

But Lee pitched and so now Roy Halladay (Monday) and Lee (Tuesday) are pitching next week against the Cubs. I know fans wanted to see Halladay or Lee face the Mets, but I don’t have a problem with this. Dubee wants to squeeze an extra day or inning of rest wherever and whenever possible for Halladay, Lee and Hamels. They’ve pitched a lot of innings. In a perfect world the offense continues to hit so Halladay, Lee and Hamels aren’t pitching in 2-1, 3-2, 1-0 games every time out. If the offense can give them some 6-1, 5-1, 7-2 leads, you would think Manuel and Dubee would pull Halladay, Lee and Hamels in the eighth instead of the ninth, or the seventh instead of the eighth. Those innings and days can add up and keep them fresher come October.

Will be interesting to see how Placido Polanco‘s back is feeling. He has not played since July 4.

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Will be interesting to see how Ryan Madson is doing. He made a rehab appearance for Class A Clearwater on Wednesday. He struck out one and hit a batter in one inning. Dubee, who lives in nearby Sarasota, watched him pitch.

I don’t see why Lee couldn’t pitch on Sunday. He would be on his regular 5-day schedule after pitching Tuesday. Since when does throwing 20 pitches ruin a guy for the second half and he suddenly needs rest? He’d probably throw that many in his bullpen session anyway.

I don’t like the direction the game is taking. They coddle players to the point that they need 84 All-Stars to fill out two (already oversized) rosters.
Dubee didn’t want his guys pitching in the game to begin with. No wonder players don’t get any flak for not showing up. The coaches are condoning it.

The decision to pitch Kendrick on Sunday has nothing to do with the All-Star game. I told you that Dubee wanted to hold Lee and Halladay back a day anyway. The way the rotation will be set up now is the same rotation they had before they set up the big three for the Braves series. Plus, Kendrick has OK numbers against the Mets. Not great, but OK.

Players are not coddled. Investments are secured. You are always with this meme because you see the the results in HOF pitchers who managed to make it through the gauntlet and amass huge numbers. How many of these types has there been? How about all the broken and thrown out arms along the way about which we never hear? That being said, I agree with your thoughts on Cliff Lee. However, as phan52 points out, the Phillies are lining up their ducks so that the ducks are doing the shooting rather than being the target. I can live with that and will be watching.

Players have always been investments. It wasn’t just HOF pitchers who had that workload. Look at the historic numbers. In fact, you can’t even get a listing of the number of pitches guys threw from baseball-reference.com because they didn’t keep track of it.
There were 4-man rotations, and MAYBE one of them was a HOF pitcher. The other guys threw every 4 days. Now, rosters are bigger and coaches like Dubee whine because their guys are pitching in the All-Star Game. It’s pathetic.
I’m sorry you can’t see how the game has regressed over the years.

@phan52 The game has changed on the hitting side too. Pitcher scouting has become more advanced to the hitters benefit. Better coaching techniques have also evolved I believe. Could that have an effect on pitchers ability to go deeper into games?
Not sure if it properly correlates, but watching old hockey games, it seems like the play was sloppy and sometime outright bad. The great players like Gordy Howe stood out so much because less naturally gifted player didn’t train, diet, or fully prepare to reach their full (marginal) potential. Nowadays, marginal NHLers can skate, shoot, and position themselves better due to coaching and preparation.
In analogy to baseball, could it be simply more difficult to pitch deep into games because even the marginal talent, the proverbial AAAA 5th OF batting 8th, has been coached up and scouted the opposition better?

Polly on the DL. Madson activated. Good news/bad news. I guess Charlie/Dubee want to give Halladay and Lee a bit more rest and have them start in NY. I guess I can’t blame them since they’ve pitched a lot of innings already.

I remember reading articles about how pitch counts and innings pitched didn’t matter to Halladay. Now they need rest? You can’t have it both ways by pitching complete games in May and June and then saying that rest is needed for a postseason that hasn’t arrived yet. The Mets series is just as important as any other series.

So we are going to listen to the players? How did that do us last year when Halladay pitched hurt at the end? Better yet, how has it worked out with Lidge and his claims that everything is okay? Maybe Charlie is finally proving wrong the axiom that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.

How did that do us last year when Halladay pitched hurt at the end?
I’d say a no-hitter in NLDS was an okay result.

BTW, there is nothing axiomatic about dogs and tricks. That would be a cliche. Everything you wrote are tired cliches. Maybe you should send Charlie a letter explaining how to manage, as you seem to think it is so easy.

Please excuse the negative tone of my reply, but you’re just bitching about petty bullshit.

I thought Lee should start on Sunday also, but at least with KK going on Sunday, Worley and KK will not pitch on back to back days. Hamels will be in between them in the rotation. Even though the Mets are getting off easier this weekend, they don’t have Reyes, so hopefully the Phils will continue their series win streak. Losing Polanco isn’t that much of a hit since he has been terrible at the plate the last 6 weeks. In Martinez and Valdez we trust.

muleman did the oldtimers, back in the days of yore, when ships were wooden and men were steel, throw every 4th day or every 4th game? No doubt they threw more but not as much as you would have us believe.

They rarely threw every fourth day (exceptions were the horses like Roberts, Drysdale, Marichal and Gibson), but there really weren’t pitch counts. Robin Roberts estimated that he averaged over 130 pitches per game. He once pitched a 17 inning game, where he pitched to 71 batters and threw well over 300 pitches. Came back for his regular turn 5 days later and threw a complete game.
There really is a pretty significant difference, and I think pitch counts are the main reason. Another reason was that the bullpens were sometimes full of drek, not specialists.

Why don’t you tell me? What difference does it make – every 4th day or every 4th game? They played the same number of GAMES. And we’re not talking about wooden ships, you ignoramus. We’re talking about the 1970s. If they didn’t pitch every 4 days, why did they routinely start 38 games a season? You guys need to do some homework. As Whitey used to say, “You could look it up.”http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/GS_leagues.shtml

Look at the numbers of games started in the mid to late 1970s and compare them to the numbers over the past 5 years. Not even close. 4 days or 4 games – what difference does it make? Why pay a starter millions (your investment, pherris) and turn the game over to a guy making the league minimum?

And while you’re busting my stones about “meme’s” you can get off yours about Amaro.

a better indication of when they started coddling pitchers has to do with complete games and free agency as opposed to starts. And complete games are tied to pitch counts.
Who was the last pitcher to have 30 complete games? It was Catfish Hunter in 1975 and he did it the first year of his new mega free agent contract with the Yankees (of course, that’s all relative. He made $640,000 that first year). His numbers deteriorated badly after that and he was never the same. GM’s and managers noticed that and decided that they couldn’t abuse their investments. Hence pitch counts were born, and fewer and fewer complete games. Nobody has even had double digit complete games since Randy Johnson in 1999.

Actually, muleman, your are the ignoramus it you do not know the difference between every 4th day and every 4th game. But looking at the Phillies from 1972 through 1976 fails to show that any pitcher other than Carlton even pitched every 4th game and then only in 1972 and 1973. So what are you talking about?

muleman, can’t prove a negative. And my perusal of the stats from the 1970s fails to show any year where the Phillies starters even pitched every 4th game without getting into the every 4th day in your mythical world of bygone days of baseball greatness. Oh! For those days of yore when lords were bold and those who pitched every 4 games were in flower.

I don’t care if they pitch every 4th game, 4th day, or even every 4th new moon, as long as they pitch well and we win. Let’s play the game we have and not the one we love to remember. In today’s game you have a 5 man rotation, 6-7 guys in the pen, 8 starters, 1 back up catcher, and a bench of 4-5 (besides the catcher). The idea os with those givens to put the best team on the field. You have to admit that RAJ has done pretty good. WHen 2 of his starters got hurt he had 2 guys to replace them who are just fine, the Pen has been brilliant despite injuries and lately they’re even hitting. I trust him to add a RHB before teh deadline to make everyone happy and secure Nov baseball in Phila once again

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