A possible form of singularity is described on the websites ilovephilosophy (old6598 or nameta9), that deals with the direct changing and manipulation of the mind - brain, and its neural circuits, emotion - memory organizations in order to achieve an Instant Singularity that implies that no scientific knowledge of the mind or brain is needed (or maybe even possible), but just the experience of the new modified brain creates an Instant Singularity.

The basic idea is that intelligence is not needed for a singularity, and no scientific knowledge is needed: the singularity will be achieved by direct manipulation of the mind, it is not dependent on a linear accumulation of knowledge on how the brain works, and the brain to experience the new singularity does not have to be intelligent at all, it has to be a different entity than what we would consider a brain, cannot be understood or explained from our reference point because it has nothing to do with any of our reference points: it is another entity in a new other universe living or experiencing a new life (if it can even be called life).

The manipulation of the brain can also be through direct thought and the brain can lie to itself to any extent: the point is that up until now the world has been decoded and understood with the brain and its sense organs and organization being an INVARIANT and a static structure while the outside world was being manipulated (the traditional scientific - pattern searching method, the evolution - progress of knowledge), but the new Instant Singularity will change the very item that is measuring and perceiving the outside world.

Change the invariant nature of the brain and you change the universe. So open brains - minds, change the neural circuits, add wild chemicals and the Instant Singularirty will occur.

Of course, the method of manipulation of the brain could be through thought only, after all what difference does it make, and then one model the mind has of itself that modifies another part of itself according to how it imagines it will react ? but if the "model - mind" is invented and if it lies to itself ? is the model the invention ? is it real or is it not ? At this point you also have the complete breakdown of science, of any possible science and logic....

Maybe the singularity is the thought and idea itself of the singularity, the singularity creates itself by thinking itself into existence ....

Why must the machines become "smarter" and "smarter" ? What exactly does "smart" or intelligence really mean ? It is a concept that makes sense only to how our body - minds are configured and how they interact with matter - reality on this planet.

But the classical Technological Singularity model where a computer becomes smarter up to the point of designing one that is smarter than itself, implies that intelligence is necessary to achieve some form of "transcendence" into a higher mind - experience.

I debate this point and consider it as completely wrong: we need intelligence and smart to solve our only local , quirky problems associated with how our minds are designed and operate, and how they decode reality and how we interact with matter accordingly. But a smarter computer or modified mind can simply achieve a state where it no longer has any problems to solve and can enter simple "pleasure loops", or states of meditations or experiences that have nothing to do with "problem" solving or figuring out how to manipulate biology to achieve immortality. Aside from the fact that said super smart computers or brains may not even have any of these goals in mind, but their goals and their decoding of reality may not have anything to do with any form of logic - intelligence and problem solving whatsoever.

So a modified mind, either by kind of guessing how to do it scientifically and logically, or by randomly changing the neural circuits, how they are connected to memory - emotions, or even completed by blind chance and completely chaotically (stick the wires in the brains, send signals, dump wild chemicals inside it) may bring that mind - brain into a new universe and state of experience that is under all accounts like a singularity from our reference points and measuring points: we have no idea and can never have any idea what is going on in said new minds unless we are exactly those new minds.

Anyways, intelligence is greatly overrated as it is simply a small self referencing language humans use to manipulate their perceived - arbitrary reality. There are millions of other realities and universes modified brains - minds (maybe with computer chips inside them also) live in that we cannot know.

The old fashion Technological Singularity that thought that computers (or minds) smart enough to design smarter minds would trigger a progress forever into an incommunicable and unknown world is no longer valid and necessary for the Singularity to occur: it can occur by direct manipulation of the mind - brain, leapfrogging any science and technology to make things "smart". Smart is not needed, the new experience is the only goal, so those that started with LSD have already been closer to the Singularity by decades.

So given that science and technology have finished progressing, and given that the Technological Singularity that will occur will happen by sticking wires and signals, chips and wild chemicals in brains and minds in an extremely chaotic and haphazard way, as confusing and "wrong" as possible and completely ignoring any logic and science as possible, we can now proceed to examine the third step: namely thought induced singularities.

The last thought that a mind will have is the thought that self manipulates itself into infinity and oblivion. How the mind is modified, whether through logic and science manipulating the neural circuits according to some imaginary models of the mind or by directly sticking wires and signals in the ball of meat that is the brain - skull, or by pouring wild chemical in the mind, or by any random - fluke - quirk combination of all of the above is besides the point: what is important is that the mind - brain changes its form, architecture, its emotional - memory -pain/pleasure and logic circuits, its sense organs, invented new sense organs, its organization in any new of an infinite array of new formats and encodings.

So even thought and meditation can be used, direct thoughts manipulating the organization of the mind - brain. Lies are accepted, in fact the mind lying to itself is one of the most powerful techniques that can be used, since in the end only the mind itself confirms if something is true, it can assign any truth since it measures its own construction and the reality principle is no longer valid in variant minds that no longer are forced to follow any logic.

So this is where the Technological Singularity has occured, occurs and will occur.

"Our brain is just a slab of matter interacting with another slab of matter according to an arbitrary circuit of neural networks "evolution" developed for our mind. Hence reality is actually a pure invention, we perceive this reality on earth with a certain range of temperatures and light etc. but we can't experience reality at the center of the Sun or at the center of the earth. hence it is an arbitrary circuit of Observing matter O and Interacting matter M. So O -> M and M -> O, but the entire ball of matter O + M is just one and can be divided in any way, so even virtual reality is just as real as any "natural reality". It is just matter interacting with matter in an arbitrary way. Hence a series of infinite minds and matters interacting in any of an infinite number of ways creates an infinite number of universes and physics."

So the mind plus observed reality is just a sequence of instantaneous configurations of mass - energy evolving according to the constraints of the laws of physics on one side and the internal signals and interactions within the slab of mass - energy "living" on the other side.

An instantaneous mass - energy configuration that can be any of any combination, much more than 10^50, probably infinite, that then has internal experiences, a configuration of mass - energy that is having experiences, forms of consciousness, states of being, combinations of signals and emotions and interactions. Trillions of new emotions, sense organs, meanings, logic, interactions, or maybe just a very simple "pleasure loop" made up of a few transistors ? Design a mind and invent any form and block diagram you want.

If in an extremely evolved form of life, or "singularity computer" self evolved and created itself at the center of stars, using the high temperature plasmas of stars, auto organizing into experiences and signals and emotions and trillions of new sense organs, what would conceivably be the limit ? Our life civilization would be just as meaningful as a rock is to us compared to it - them. And then the very concept of "communication", of separate "persons" communicating or separate entities communicating would be no longer valid: a plasma star mind would be one person and an entire civilization at the same time, just as a human mind that self manipulates its own thoughts no longer needs to communicate to anything or anyone as it becomes self sufficient, an entire civilization in a meditating brain, independent of any external constraints, or any judgments by other "persons" ...

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QUOTE(old6598 @ Jul 14, 2010, 04:51 AM)

... The basic idea is that intelligence is not needed for a singularity, and no scientific knowledge is needed: the singularity will be achieved by direct manipulation of the mind ... ... Maybe the singularity is the thought and idea itself of the singularity, the singularity creates itself by thinking itself into existence ....

Are you serious? If so, are you talking about what I call 'GOD'--all that is Good, Orderly and Desirable?

... The basic idea is that intelligence is not needed for a singularity, and no scientific knowledge is needed: the singularity will be achieved by direct manipulation of the mind ... ... Maybe the singularity is the thought and idea itself of the singularity, the singularity creates itself by thinking itself into existence ....

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[quote name='Homegamek' date='Jul 16, 2010, 02:17 AM' post='110100'] [quote]... The basic idea is that intelligence is not needed for a singularity, and no scientific knowledge is needed: the singularity will be achieved by direct manipulation of the mind ... ... Maybe the singularity is the thought and idea itself of the singularity, the singularity creates itself by thinking itself into existence .... [/quote]

There are no answers, there are no problems, or maybe there are an infinite number of answers or problems: the point is that the old idea of a singularity rotated around the idea of a machine becoming so intelligent as to be able to design an even more intelligent machine than itself: hence an infinite loop into an unknown. But how does the machine "know" that the new machine "is smarter", it can't judge, and how does the machine assume what experiences and what thoughts the new machine is having ? it can only guess, make them up, invent what it imagines as the new thoughts - experiences - states of minds - emotions - or any other of millions of other "informational relationships" that can be imagined.

What if a simple electron has "thoughts", could we know ? we would have to be that electron to verify it, but then against what would we verify it ? what is invariant and variant ? what if an entire planet has thoughts and is living, could we know and more important what would it matter ? what if all matter is already singularity, subdivided into any inside and outside, into any kind of divisions of containing and contained ?

Another way to view these issues is to think of technology and technical evolution as always, at least up until now, manipulating the outside world with our minds - bodies - and decodings of the world apart as the invariant "observer" or measuring item. But changing this invariant into a variant, changing the way the observer is designed, its relationships, its internal relationships, we create a new universe. But isn't all information that reaches the mind a slight changing of this invariant ? isn't all drugs and health care manipulations a small changing of the invariant ? where is the delimitation or where is the edge between invariant and variant, between inside and outside, between manipulating the "outside world" and the "inside" decoding ?

Only information relationships exists, and more so, contrasting will powers define the human experiences: a one transistor circuit made up of simple contrasting will power, action and reaction, a struggle, a simple circuit, the essence of man...

To clarify the notions of conflicting will powers, the action and reaction between actors as a constant fight.Into social sciences, but is not very important at all regarding the Instant Singularity where the neural circuits of the minds will be changed, directly wired into all kinds of new circuits.

On a side note...

Check out nameta9 and old6598 on ilovephilosophy (dot com) and their views on EXCESS CAPACITY.

also kunstler (dot com) and his blogs and "social" issues, on energy...

The "Excess Capacity myth": the belief that there are huge excess capacities or potentials or wealth, money, real estate, scientific knowledge, possibilities, etc. enough to give a "free salary" to all: well this is false, is a forced "patternization" upon economy and the world, is not reality: the reality is that there really is no aggregate number measuring how much "wealth" or productive capacity or potential is available: economy is only, I REPEAT ONLY A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CONFLICTING WILL POWERS, A FIGHT BETWEEN TWO OR MORE PEOPLE OVER RESOURCES, OVER WHO IS THE BOSS AND WHO IS THE SLAVE.

In theory, yes there is enough know how and technology and organizational understanding, etc. to give a free salary to all, say 3,000 dollars a month to easily live comfortably for everyone, cheap rents for high quality homes, etc. (there are more than 10 million empty homes between the USA and the entire European continent (from Lisbon to Moscow) and JAPAN), etc. You can pay much more to those that work jobs that are actually needed like doctors, dentists, construction workers and factory workers, say from 6,000 dollars a month up while everyone else should stay at home and watch TV, as this is the ultimate end point of human evolution as it achieves all our needs without having to exert any effort: the images realize all the causes and effects that we desire, it makes no difference if they are real or fake, real and fake are themselves imaginary concepts.

The real bottom line ? The value of homes, the value of commercial property, the value of real estate: these values have been blowed up way out of proportion starting from the JAPAN of the 1980s, most of the European Union and the USA from the 1970s to present. These values have been way above average salaries, have no correspondence to the reality of what people make and more alarmingly so, what people will possibly make in the future. These values like house above 200,000 dollars in California, 2 bedroom homes in London of 400,000 dollars etc. are completely bogus, imaginary, impossible to be real and in fact are not real. These home values have been inflated way beyond reality for three reasons:

1) To make people "feel rich", to give them an illusion of how rich they are and how much money they could "cash in" when they "sell" (as if it is so automatic and easy to sell in any possible future ignoring how everything can possibly change in the future);

2) To find some kind of investment for the 80 trillion dollars of profit money hanging around in the world not knowing what to do, to find some kind of magical return, return on investment, profit for money just sitting in a room. Now I feel the entire concept of investment and profit is mostly a farce, bogus, unreal, is a make believe fantasy, magical thinking gimick: investments can be made and profits and money can be made in certain areas (apple with their ipad), chinese factories turning out products by paying their workers 200 dollars a month, etc: but the bottom line is that most profits are made by giving less money to some actors and skinning off more for the owner's class. Not much by "innovation". But they found a great "innovation": make real estate values and prices blow up forever, and make people believe and pay ever higher prices for these homes, for this basic good everyone needs, and let them pay by borrowing from the "future".

3) Convince everyone that there is a "population explosion", that housing is scarce, that you have to get your "own house" before the "resources run out". In fact most nations are undergoing a flat population growth, some are going backwards, the future is not in resource scarcity, there are and will be any number of homes available to anyone. They are mostly kept off the market, they are mostly fake scarcities due to the fact that the jobs are all in hot areas so everyone wants a home in the hot areas and the prices go sky high.

The prices of homes in the developed world most go WAY DOWN, like not more than 100,000 dollars for a 2 bedroom whether in JAPAN, UK or California. Because the future "work" that people will need to pay these homes will not and cannot pay salaries of more than 500 to 1000 dollars a month: there is no reason to pay white collars workers in Los Angeles or London more than can be paid a guy in Sao Paolo, Brazil or Jakarta, Indonesia. In these places a dude will readily accept 800 dollars a month, is more disciplined and better educated and will be very happy to make such a "high salary as perceived by them". This is the future reality.

But all of the defects of "human nature" will be fixed in a jiffy by simply changing those circuits in the brains that activate "conflicting will powers", "power struggles", "fights", "inequality", etc. Probably only a few transistors need to be added or modified and all of the violent human history of the last 100,000 years is solved and engineered into correction.

For the Technological Singularity, check out:

www ilovephilosophy com / phpbb / viewtopic php ? f=4 & t=172275

From:

www ilovephilosophy com / phpbb / viewtopic php ? f=4 & t=166773

"Any modified simulated reality system is much closer to "reality", is much more real, is much less detached from reality than our natural state as humans. In fact humans are just a combination of matter, a configuration that is the result of 5 billion years of trillions of random chemical experiments playing out on an entire planet. A simulating machine is the result of a few thousand years of technological evolution but nowhere near the scale of natural evolution, nowhere near the complexity and randomness of all the quirk events that brought to the human condition, hence a simulating machine is closer to reality than any "natural" system, is less of a lie and an invention than natural systems.

Simulating machines, new minds either in silicon or brains is actually a trip back towards reality, is actually the discovery of reality and physics and not the other way around, the real simulation is the human mind as nature furnished it. Natural systems are much more detached from reality than any man made simple simulating machine, hence the simulation is closer to reality.

We are a quirk item that is the total result of 5 billion years of evolution of trillions of molecules on an entire planet. How much further from reality can you possibly get ? How much further from the basic apparent laws of physics can you possibly get ?

On an edge, the surface of the earth being an edge between solid and gas, within a very small range of temperatures and conditions, a human needing so many supplemental systems to exist, like food, water, pressure, the right gravity etc. This is so quirky and so improbabile that it is not even a lie! a lie, a total outright lie is more true than nature!

This shows that artificial intelligence is not only wrong, it is not even wrong since it is so far away from a human brain. Not even wrong, not even related.

The system of a mind interacting with reality is equivalent to a system of a delimited piece of matter interacting with another delimited piece of matter. The interaction being a set of events, a number of events and the observing entity being an aggregation within a delimited piece of matter. Now the organization and aggregations and sets of matter and events, the system as a whole can be any of untold number of combinations, the events and sensations, the observing entity can experience any of untold number of experiences. So no combination is any truer than any other, they are all lies, or all false or all true. They all have the same amount of detachment from reality or we can assign a parameter to define how detached according to how complex the delimited matter and interacting matter and set of events are. Humans are a planet large set having 5 billion years of events, hence very detached, very arbitrary, very much a lie compared to a simulated neural network in the ball of meat that is a modified brain.

What reality ? What truth ? What physics ? What is composed of what ultimately ? ALL LIES...

Closer to reality would be inside stars, a plasma since this is much more common in the universe, or inside planets, not on the surface, or in deep space. But our physics is wrong anyways being based on a lie that is the human entity."

The brains of humans must be engineered into correction: the free will circuits must be deactivated, the circuits that generate conflicting opinions, conflicts in general, differences, inequalities, power struggles, war, confrontations, etc. must be changed, they are probably just a few transistors, just a one transistor circuit that creates free will and the material called "Free Willonium" that is composed of particles that freely make different and contrasting choices, that struggle and fight each other, in this way escaping all the laws of physics.

This must come to an end, this will end 100,000 years of violent human history with all their "fights" and "politics" and "different choices - opinions - lifestyles - behaviors", etc. It is probably just one bit in brains that must be changed, and humans will then become a superior spiritual machine, one monolithic slab of unity of intent working towards higher singularities, more advanced experimental brains, circuits, and hence universes, emotions, experiences. Change all the circuits in brains, create new sense organs, new emotion systems, new and fake and simulated and make believe logics, laws of physics, internal narratives, new memory and logic circuits, etc.

The serialization of trillions of "Man Hours" of work accumulating into solid results of unity of intent, and not like now with everyone working against everyone else and dispersing all the energy each individual puts in. Work that adds up, hence an Instant Singularity created by the shear number of Man Hours of "product" that is finally accumulating and creating ever higher states of being.

KILL FREE WILLS, all of them, the machines and the universe will decide what configurations are valid...

Why can't we see and hear many other alien civilizations assumed to exist ?

Any extra terrestrial civilization or intelligence would have a very narrow window of time to be interested in other civilizations, interest in the outside world, in communicating with other imagined civilizations on other planets before starting to manipulate their own brains, minds, putting chips in their brains and creating an essentially solid state civilization.

In fact the number of universes that a said civilization could explore by self manipulating itself and communicating only with in a limited area of mass - energy, is greatly larger than any number of alien civilizations. And the manipulations of mass - energy interacting with itself (that is what the Technological Singularity is essentially when brains change themselves and start manipulating themselves and talking to themselves) would be similar in any other area of the universe, hence the curiosity for other alien civilizations would not be sufficient: nothing really new could be discovered compared to mass - energy self manipulating itself.

Mass - Energy self manipulating itself would be similar in any other point of the universe, nothing new to discover.

Brains that self manipulate can create all kinds of new informational relationships within themselves: you can imagine, within a cubic meter, trillions of transistors, neural circuits, optic circuits that are exploring simply the combination of Mass - Energy self evolving and expressing itself. Some parts of the cube can evolve at extremely fast and different rates, so as to be creating essentially "alien civilizations" only a few centimeters apart, and interacting, communicating, and exploring all the same.

So what would be found in a small volume of Mass - Energy self manipulating and evolving and interacting with all kinds of combinations and dependent and independent parts, Free Willoniums, Computroniums, etc. is equivalent to what would be found by civilizations that evolved millions of light years away, independently: ONLY THE INFORMATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND INTERACTIONS, ALONG WITH, EMOTIONS, LOGIC, NEW BRAIN CIRCUITS, NEW ORGANIZATIONS OF MEMORY, LOGIC, INVENTED LAWS OF PHYSICS really count, the rest is redundant.

A possible form of singularity is described on the websites ilovephilosophy (old6598 or nameta9), that deals with the direct changing and manipulation of the mind - brain, and its neural circuits, emotion - memory organizations in order to achieve an Instant Singularity that implies that no scientific knowledge of the mind or brain is needed (or maybe even possible), but just the experience of the new modified brain creates an Instant Singularity.

An exploration in the space of configurations. It is mathematically equivalent to visiting other planets in space ships or visiting "fake" planets in a simulation: the independence of the planets and the life that has evolved on them can be made equivalent, the simulation can be made as independent as possible from any initial starting point, after all it is always the same Mass - Energy and is the same in all points in space.

To frame the concept better, imagine how many possible combinations of information and sequence of information events your senses could possibly perceive (keeping the brain an invariant for now, with our "traditional and old fashioned" organization of memory - logic - emotion - pain/pleasure circuits fixed and hardwired as is today). These sequence of information items aggregate and add up into an "experience", so there is an experience that is mathematically equivalent to going to Mars and encountering Little Green Men. Exploring the space of combinations or using a space ship is equivalent, only that with the "simulation" or within the 1 cubic meter of singularity Mass - Energy self manipulating, you can explore a much larger state space much faster. But then you just need to encounter one Civilization that changes everything you think and know and all of your technology to halt the exploration indefinitely ...

"The idea is probably not new, the universe is just pure information, the it to bit physics, so all possible combinations of these bits mapped to everything we can imagine is just a small subset of what is possible. The laws of physics seem to select only a very few combinations, but the superset of all combinations is the real size of the universe or any possible universe, so that is true reality, not what we feel with our senses."

An objection could be that an independent intelligent civilization - life form developing and evolving on another planet only according to the sequence of chemical reactions that occurred on said planet over many millions of years, and the end resulting "Green Men" is completely different from a simulated being in a computer (just to keep it simple). The computer cartoon is "man made", has been created "on purpose", "with intention", etc. so it is something that always has some points of contacts, some similarity, some possible meaning for us, some possible decoding.

But what counts is only the Informational Relationships: if a configuration H represents the human and G the Green men, the difference between H and G could be seen as a parameter describing how close or how far away from each other they are in terms of mind, intelligence, experience, environment, etc. This depiction of this "Close Encounter" and the difference between H and G could be a parameter D named "Threshold of Decoding of Alien Intelligence", so:

H - G = D

So what counts is only D, not how the difference has been obtained, not the particular path life followed after 4 billion years of self interacting chemical reactions creating a mind, and the analogous sequence of reactions on Mars creating Green Men. These reactions are only one of a huge number of possible paths that Mass - Energy could take to achieve the same difference, the same Informational Relationship, and as a consequence the same D representing in essence the interaction between the two intelligent entities. It makes no difference if it was obtained through a few transistors or through planet sized experiments.

So a Technological Singularity Cube containing one part evolving and developing independently from another part of the Cube, say C1 and C2, and end up having the same D, C1 - C2 = D, the informational relationship would be mathematically equivalent to the "Close Encounter" of H and G above.

Hence, alien intelligence and lifeforms can be explored in this manner.

Aside from the fact that there are many subtle problems in the Threshold of Decoding of Alien Intelligence as a mind will always try to decode what it sees according to what it already knows and thinks, how it already models life, cause and effects, etc. So there is a threshold past which the alien is so far removed to anything understandable by the observing mind that it essentially is no longer decodable: the mind sees no alien life, when in fact it is there.

But then in any case, isn't it always just the mind talking to itself anyways ? ....

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QUOTE

To clarify the notions of conflicting will powers, the action and reaction between actors as a constant fight.Into social sciences ...

Ah! the social sciences. Do you mean pneumatology, psychology, sociology ... And what else?BTW, I am very interested in economics. Does it qualify as a science?

How much do you know about the community currency movement? Born in 1930--a Depression Baby--I have been an advocate of complementary (to the federal kind) community currency (CCC) since the 1960. A CCC is nothing more than a counting stick, like inches on a ruler. It has no investment or derivative value.

You say: "In theory, yes there is enough know how and technology and organizational understanding, etc. to give a free salary to all, say 3,000 dollars a month to easily live comfortably for everyone, cheap rents for high quality homes, etc. (there are more than 10 million empty homes between the USA and the entire European continent (from Lisbon to Moscow) and JAPAN), etc.

I would agree with your idea, if the money was paid, in CCC, and to people willing to do socially useful work--there is lots to be done--in the local community. People who want the luxury of buying imported items, or to go on vacations our of the local area would need to earn federal dollars.

You say: "You can pay much more to those that work jobs that are actually needed like doctors, dentists, construction workers and factory workers, say from 6,000 dollars a month up while everyone else should stay at home and watch TV, as this is the ultimate end point of human evolution as it achieves all our needs without having to exert any effort: the images realize all the causes and effects that we desire, it makes no difference if they are real or fake, real and fake are themselves imaginary concepts. ..."

But, even at 80, I like that dirty word 'work'--"exerting effort" as you call it ... as long as I can take a break when I need it. "... stay at home and watch TV, as this is the ultimate end point of human evolution..." Where did you get this idea?

In my opinion, a CCC system--managed by producers and consumers, at the local level--in cooperation with the federal one--managed at the national level, would obviate a lot of probelms we have with the high cost of fee-for-service professionals like, for example lawyers

You say: "The prices of homes in the developed world most go WAY DOWN ..."

But who decides? Some Czar of the economy?

===========================About the recent financial crisis which began in October 2008.

THE GREAT WALL STREET SWINDLE was the name of the story on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the CBC in the Spring of 2009.

Interestingly, a comment I made on the CBC TV program was published. Here is a revised version:

As I understand it, as long as it is not called "legal tender" any legally registered corporation--for example the CBC, the Canadian Tire Corp, etc.--can issue money-like coupons, for circulation purposes only--which can be used to purchase things the corporations produce. This will create jobs. There was a time when the Hudson's Bay Company used nothing but counting sticks, which made of Oak and, therefore, difficult to counterfeit. Look at the wealth it created. But did greedy managers really share the wealth with the hunters and trappers?

It doesn't take too much imagination to visualize how, in cooperation with the federal kind, such complementary community currencies (CCC's I call them) could be put to use, legally, to employ the unemployed and the under-employed to produce goods and services to the benefit of the total community, especially those needing work.

BTW, this system is not an anti-bank. Nor is it an underground form of economy.

Come on CBC! Use your imagination. Harness your advertising power, which has great capital value, by issuing and loaning, the needy, including new and small business enterprises, interest-free CBC-Ca$h--backed by the advertising capital of the CBC. What better way to let all Canadians know where the food, clothing, shelter and work is. This could inspire us to work together to create the kind of "my community" Canada--from the Algonkin word 'kanata' meaning my community--is supposed to be. The CBC will also reap the benefit of great public support, which I understand it is now seeking.

By the way, check out the links on the site of THE FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION:

INTEREST- FREE TEMPLE CURRENCY--See John 2:13-25; Matthew 21: 12-13; Mark 11: 15-17, and Luke 19:45-46. The following is an expanded version of the one I sent to the CBC. It also reflects my version of the role of the moneychangers--the Temple bankers--not found in the commentaries.===================================================================================Interestingly, in ancient Jerusalem devout Jews, like Jesus, his family and disciples, no doubt used the interest-free and pure Temple money. It was a CCC--that is, it was a local and complementary community currency in the form of metal coins. Keep in mind that all coins, Temple and foreign went by weight, not by denomination--number on the coin. An ounce was an ounce, right? And, on this basis, they circulated parallel to one another.

But was it an honest system?

The Temple coins bore the stamp of the sacred temple, not the image of pagan gods like that of the Roman emperors found on the Roman and foreign coins. Such images were abhorrent to pious Jews. Naturally, devout Jews expected that Temple coins not be debased, like many foreign coins were. Take note of this: By the time the Roman Empire collapsed, Roman gold coins were mostly lead, dipped in gold.

Now use your imagination: Just like today, greedy people with criminal minds found many ways to beat the system. For example, the moneychangers were suppose to check the purity of foreign coins. How? They were supposed to melt it down--that is, render it--and make sure it was pure. But did they?

In addition, when they found pure metals, did they make sure it stayed that way? Just think of the temptation to debase the good coins and make money in the process. Toxic and sub-prime mortgages, anyone!

Take the time to go behind the story of why Jesus--on the day Christians call Palm Sunday--turned over the tables of the cheating moneychangers, who he called thieves--and you will get some understanding as to why he was arrested by the henchmen of the greedy, the rich and shameless. Of course they wanted to get rid of him. He blew the whistle on their scam, didn't he? And it cost him his life. Talk about wisdom, and courage!======================http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?act=S...munity+currency

But what counts is only the Informational Relationships: if a configuration H represents the human and G the Green men, the difference between H and G could be seen as a parameter describing how close or how far away from each other they are in terms of mind, intelligence, experience, environment, etc. This depiction of this "Close Encounter" and the difference between H and G could be a parameter D named "Threshold of Decoding of Alien Intelligence", so:

The universe is infinite in time and space. The number of planets, galaxies and any other structures is infinite. It has lasted forever, forever changing, will last forever. The big bangs is either:

1) True. Which means we happen to be in a bubble of maybe 10^1000 light years in space and 10^20 years from origin, which means it appears to be a big bang since this is how far we can ever possibly see both in time and space ("observable universe" and note that all of the official science has never denied that we are limited in our observation of the universe, has never denied that we can see only a small slice no matter what). If 10^1000 is too small, well just add a few trillion zeros to the exponent aka 10^1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.....

2) False. Which means that the microwave radiation has another, different origin, which may very well be possible.

Since the universe is infinite in space and time, all possible combinations of Mass - Energy will have the time to come into existence, and in fact will cycle through an infinite number of times, "the eternal return". This also fits in nicely with my theory of the universe as a combination, as a big number:

Since any possible combination will occur, this explains the occurrence of life on earth, since that one time quirk sequence of chemical reactions that brought life and man had to occur at least once (but infinite number of times, since the universe is infinite in time and space). So the origin of life is explained.

Also the universe is probably just a small dot in a universe containing an infinite number of other universes with different laws of physics.

All of our science, religion and philosophy is just desperately trying to size this universe to our limited brain, language and thought processes: we cannot accept infinity as an answer while in fact infinity is the only answer. That is why scientists cling on so strongly to the big bang theory.

Growth as has occurred in the last 50 years is over for the developed world, USA, EU and JAPAN (and some others, Australia, Canada, South Korea, etc.). This is very simple: when a country goes from being poor to middle class (even lower middle class), the economy constantly "grows" in the sense that more people have money, buy cars, furniture, TVs, some buy homes, etc. This process creates jobs, more jobs, more money, more growth etc. for decades. This happened very nicely and according to the textbook in Italy, JAPAN, South Korea, Germany, USA and some others from 1945 to about 2000. Actually for Italy and some other European nations and JAPAN this process of "the end of growth" occurred in the beginnings of the 1990s, aka the "lost decades of JAPAN".

Now this happened also in an era of a given level of technology and technology applied to production and the economy: a given amount of automation, optimizations and computer applications, etc. And since these elements were still not as developed as today, there was still a lot of labor that was needed, factories weren't so automated, bosses still needed secretaries (they didn't have or use MS word, Access, etc.).

But now that growth is over in the "West" and technology is killing those few jobs that are still needed, there is no hope of going back to the good times. Growth in the developed world can only occur through services, that is by deliberately breaking things up and fixing them up in a futile cycle. Just look at Health Care, Lawyers, and Military adventures to get an idea.

On the other hand, countries like China, India, Brazil, Indonesia, Colombia, etc. are in the "growth phase", where JAPAN was in the 1960s and 1970s for example. So this is where the markets are, and this is where western corporations are making huge profits by selling to high growth economies, economies that are going from being poor to being rich (this is why the stock markets go up anyways no matter how bad things are in Ohio). Of course technology applied to the economy just accelerates this as does the internet, outsourcing etc. so they may end up having an even smaller window of time of high growth economy.

What the west needs now is to start modifying the brains of people, start creating the Instant Singularity by putting chips and computers and changing the neural circuits of people so they go forward into a new era. We are at the threshold of the next technological revolution, the Instant Singularity:

And forget about all the population explosions and resource limitations: worldwide population may reach at most 10 billion which is nothing compared to the holding capacity of 100 trillion the world has, and all the energy science will harness through fusion, bacteria that creates oil, genetic engineering food and petroleum creation, trillions of skyscrapers, space travel, trillions of cadillacs, etc. Colonization of the galaxy through Technological Singularity computers, robots, etc. An infinite Resource Society.

A very important property of the infinite universe is that it is large enough to contain logical contradictions: since it is unbounded in time, space, combinations and laws of physics, it no longer has to obey to any principle of non contradiction. Thus the last boundary or models, languages and thought processes of our mind imposed upon reality also disappear.

Any logical contradiction, any linguistic or mathematical contradiction can be contained inside the infinite universe, our thought processes simply break down and cannot contain or model such a world, but nonetheless it is true.

For example, you can rebut that the universe is infinite in time and space but contains just one bit of information that is always set to one and never changed or can change. This is true. You can say, AT THE SAME TIME, the the universe is made up of matter, Mass - Energy as we know it in all directions for infinity and all time from the past to the future, from minus infinite time to plus infinite time. This is true. But since the universe is infinite, it is large enough to contain both universes, they exists, AT THE SAME TIME, mutually exist, are both true even though they appear to contradict each other because infinity is large enough to contain both of them no matter how contradictory they are. Hence even logical contradiction is too small to be contained within an infinite universe.

Thank you very much for getting back to subject. I apologize for the self-gloating senior members' detouring activities in this forum. We've tried dealing with this problem before, but, to no avail. Your posts in this thread are very welcome. Keep them coming!

I don't know about the future, but the past (everything ever created) is still around in one form or another (matter, energy, everything else). That is quite a resource to pull upon/from. Surely if/when we ever find a way to exploit the information from the past then we will be as a singularity in terms of intellectual wealth and prospects.

Wait a minute, here, Hey Hey! I'm not going to let you burst my bubble just yet! At the Singularity state, our consciousness are in all possible dimensions at once! And then more! You yourself brought this up one time (sometime in the past, of course!)

The origin of Space - Time comes from the existence of monolithic slabs of pure logical - mathematical contradictions: an elementary particle (or item) composed of an invariant monolithic slab of pure logical contradiction. This is because the existence of the contradiction creates:

1) Time as the stage that allows a sequence where the item is assigned or declared or perceived as first "A" and then successively "not A" by a single observer;

2) Space as the stage that allows the item to be assigned or declared or perceived by two distinct observers who are simultaneously assigning the same item as "A" and "not A" from two different points in space hence creating space.

The existence of the "Contradicton" elementary particle constantly creates Space and Time by the continuous creation of elementary virtual particles having the property of being "Virtual Observers": a particle named "Observerton".

Contradictons live in a cloud of virtual Observertons.

In a sense, contradictions do not exist at all, there are only observers that either declare an item true and false in sequence or two observers declaring the item true and false in opposition. The declaring of the item as different by two observers is due to the nature of conflicting will powers, the "Free Willonium", but it may hide a power struggle, or a delusion by assinging something in a certain way as opposed to another: but all assignments are delusions, are only made according to what the intentionalities of the observers are, whether some kind of a gain or just the desire to create an attractive picture of reality according to how the observer would like it to be.

Maybe the Pain/Pleasure circuits natural evolution created constrain the choice of acceptable contradictions, but only because of an arbitrary quirk choice that nature assigned for no necessity or reason at all: the illusion of non-contradiction as the nature of reality by hiding it behind forced Pain/Pleasure circuits...

Nature, Reality and the Physical Universe is ultimately only contradiction.

Of course all of the above is wrong or it would contradict itself (?!?!) .....