Interesting article on collagen and steroids

02-03-2005, 04:58 AM

juke

Interesting article on collagen and steroids

Unknown source.. any thoughts on how to apply this for enhancing PE??

While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% — more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It’s like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can’t tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position — winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don’t get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a ‘normal’ physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want — an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% — less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner — the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I’ve read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good — they increase several biomakers of collagen syn — ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS — the decision is up to you…..

02-03-2005, 05:00 AM

juke

Seems that Winstol would be ideal: decreases the “cross-link integrity” so it would be easier to stretch, while increasing collagen synthesis making cell growth faster, that’s my take at least..

02-03-2005, 06:05 AM

dreamaloud1

Wait until Shiver sees this thread…

The roids vs. tendon thing is true. I read about one guy who ripped both of his tricep’s loose at the same time doing a set of lying overhead extensions. LOL Bet that shit hurt pretty bad too.

02-03-2005, 07:32 AM

hobby

>Unknown source.. any thoughts on how to apply this for enhancing PE??

Yeah. Don’t.

Unknown source? I didn’t bother reading past the first paragraph.

I don’t know if or how steroids affect collagen.

02-03-2005, 04:31 PM

soon2b9

Juke,

Here’s a fairly lengthy post on Winstrol and some ideas about its use in PE.

Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 micrograms per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability but enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels. There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta-1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta-1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.

Discussion: I must first acknowledge that the commonly held belief is that anabolic steroids predispose an athlete to tendon rupture. This conclusion is drawn from animal studies showing that some steroids produce a larger, stiffer tendon in rats and that these steroid-induced tendons “fail” before the tendons from the control animals. The term fail refers to the breaking point.

The interesting thing about the present study is that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) had a different effect than testosterone. If you are a regular reader of MESO-Rx you should be well aware that not all steroids act in the same manner. And that because of subtle differences in there molecular structure they are able to elicit different responses. For example, Deca seems to act primarily through the androgen receptor (AR) where as Dianabol has effects beyond those associated with the AR.

Because synthetic steroids have differ in their chemical properties it should not be surprising that testosterone did not have the same effect as Winstrol. Winstrol increased collagen synthesis as opposed to testosterone which did not in this study. Interpreting the results of this study are more difficult than simply describing them. Other researchers have suggested that steroids cause a rapid increase in protein synthesis within tendon fibroblasts which results in fibroids or fibrous nodules within the tendon (Michna,1988). These fibroids alter the mechanical properties of the tendon perhaps predisposing it to rupture. It is also noted that during short term use of steroids there is an alteration in the alignment of collagen fibers which may also lead to rupture. Interestingly these alterations in collagen metabolism are transient with markers of collagen turnover returning more or less to baseline after 3-4 weeks of steroid administration (Karpakka,1992). These same researchers noted that low dose anabolics effect primarily muscle collagenous tissue with tendon being effected only at higher doses (i.e. 5 times the therapeutic dose) which would more closely represent what is needed by bodybuilders to put on mass.

The question remains, dose this mean that Winstrol will actually help prevent tendon injury or will it lead to bigger yet stiffer tendons prone to injury? It is difficult to take animal research and extrapolate the results to humans. Stanozolol is used therapeutically in humans to treat a variety of connective tissue and vascular disorders and its clinical effects suggest that it can modulate connective tissue breakdown in people. Despite being labeled as “ineffective” by many bodybuilders it is very popular among athletes. As with most hormones, dosage plays a role in what effects are seen, be they positive or negative. Hopefully future studies will shed light on the therapeutic effects of different steroids on tendons in humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/b…in.section.1056 This link supports the belief that steroid use before puberty increases penis size. They explain how it is used to treat micropenis. It should still work during puberty don’t you think? Heck why doesn’t it work AFTER puberty, we need to find out what conditions are present for steroids to work this way.

That brings up the question of, how many Doctor’s have augmented their male child’s unit thus far?

It might not work after puberty due to lack of pituitary gland activity … not that I know that for a fact, just a guess. I would imagine that it is not just the steroids that are responsible. There are many hormones that the production of is either drasticly reduced or altogether ceased after puberty is over.

This is me in case you ever want to know what kind of psycho you're dealing with.

02-04-2005, 09:14 AM

Shiver

I dunno guys, Dr Lin’s products always did it for me :D

I’ve got 10g of Winny powder right here but don’t feel the need to use it for PE (or anything else for that matter). I think we need the opposite in a growth phase. That is, I think we need a few % of collagen dissolution and disorientation of fibres, allowing the bonds to break and slide. Then resize it, and only then rebuild it to make it stable.

When people talk of increased synthesis, I always wonder if they use it like the term ‘losing weight’. Do they mean weight? (as in go for a dump), or do they mean losing some other bodily tissue? Increased synthesis is a vague term. We actually want adaptive remodelling in sympathy with the stresses place upon it, not in opposition. To me that’s quite different to collagen needs in body building.