I, for one, have started teaching Kung fu to my son(not the weak sauce Kalari, mind you). When the Chinese will surely reach the South and kill me, I hope my son is ready to avenge them with Kung fu. I have seen enough Chinese movies to know this will work. Chinese can't be wrong.

Why we must acknowledge the blunders of the 1962 warNovember 19, 2012 14:09 IST

The problem in India has been that we are in the first place not even ready to acknowledge our history, thus making sure that we do not learn from it, says Colonel Anil A Athale (retd) on the day one of the Indian Army's [ Images ] famous batallions lost an uneven battle 50 years ago.

Many intelligent readers have questioned the recent spate of articles on the 1962 Sino-Indian border conflict (please note 'border conflict' and NOT war). Even a former Indian Air Force chief spoke in the same vein and asked us all to 'move on'.

It is true that 1962 was a painful military debacle, but it must be stressed that one can learn more from a defeat. The problem in India has been that we are in the first place not even ready to acknowledge our history, thus making sure that we do not learn from it.

At another level, the 'mindset' that brought us grief still continues to haunt us. The characteristics of this mindset are wishful thinking about threats, lack of coordination between various arms and government departments, disconnect between situation on the border and hinterland and the military and political leadership and finally a fond hope that we can wage a 'peaceful war' and protect ourselves from aggression.

The controversy over the non-use of offensive air power is one such indicator. When the air chief recently mentioned that had we used air power in 1962 we could have had the better of the Chinese, he was immediately hauled over the coals by the usual suspects of the Dilli Darbar. Such is the fear of the truth of leadership failures being exposed!

The irony is that the air chief did not say anything new. The analysis of the non-use of air power by India in 1962 has been circulated within the military since 1988. In 2003, when the official history was uploaded on the Internet, this has been in the public domain. The facts speak for themselves.

In 1962, though the Chinese air force was thrice the size of the Indian Air Force, the bulk of the Chinese air force was located to deal with the Taiwan threat. In addition, the Chinese had anti-aircraft resources or radars in Tibet [ Images ]. In the north opposite Ladakh, China had two airfields, Khotan and Kashgar. In the east there were four airfields: Jaykundo, Chamdo, Nachu and Kuming.

All the Chinese airfields were located at altitudes of 9,000 feet or higher. It meant that the Chinese aircraft could not take off with full loads. On the other hand, the IAF had several air strips in the vicinity, thanks to World War II. Also, the IAF's Hunter and Mystere aircraft were superior to the Chinese MiG-17s and 19s.

The only aircraft that could reach the targets in India was the Illushin-28 bomber with barely 48 tonnes of bomb loads. The IAF could deliver 144 tonnes of bomb load daily with fighters and 192 with Canberra bombers.

Thus, the IAF was seven times stronger than its Chinese counterpart. The IAF could have easily disrupted the long Chinese supply lines. In Ladakh, it could have neutralised the Chinese advantage in guns.

But crucially, since China was not able to use its air force, seeing our own air force dominate the skies would have had a very beneficial effect on the morale of the ground troops. All military analysts agree that on the Arunachal front, more than the Chinese strength, it was the loss of morale that led to the military debacle.

But the clinching evidence on this issue is the Chinese action -- or lack of it. China scrupulously avoided interfering with IAF supply missions so as to not give the IAF an excuse to use its fighter air power. In addition, despite severe problems of supply to its troops on the Arunachal front, China never used its air force. It is to be noted that in 1950 when it moved to occupy Tibet, China had used its air power.

The IAF failed to carry out any professional assessment of the situation. In fact, the whole war was being run by Lieutenant General B M Kaul.

The air chief was not in the decision-making loop and used to know about the conflict from newspapers. The IAF's chief of planning, in an interview with our team, told us that air power use was not recommended as 'that would have turned world public opinion against us.'

A stranger argument for a military decision is difficult to find. Defence Minister V K Krishna Menon was in favour of the use of air force, but was checkmated by the fear of 'escalation.'

In a bizarre situation, symptomatic of those times, the head of the Congress party in Bengal directly approached the American ambassador and sought an American air umbrella to protect Kolkata [ Images ], that was incidentally out of range of the Chinese aircraft.

India had obviously not learnt the lesson that in 1947 Kashmir was saved from Pakistani raiders mainly due to the use of air power that destroyed their vehicles and supplies.

We did not draw any lessons from the 1947 Kashmir conflict since the comprehensive history of the 1947 Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] operations, prepared by the ministry of defence, was published only in 1987, a full 40 years after the event.

But it is unfair to blame the IAF alone for the unprofessional approach. Symptomatic of the way the border war was conducted is exemplified by the way army units were moved and flung into battle.

Major K P P Nair (later, a lieutenant colonel) was a senior company commander of an infantry battalion that had liberated Goa [ Images ] in December 1961. His battalion was located in Panaji and Ponda in Goa. On October 4, 1962, the commanding officer was posted out to Tezpur and the battalion placed on alert to move to the Arunachal front. The new commanding officer was ordered to join the battalion in Tezpur.

On October 8, the battalion was ordered to move to Tezpur. There was no transport available, so the officers took over mining tipper trucks at gun point and moved the men to Belgaum.

As the battalion moved on its way to the border via Pune, Nair recalled that the army commander in Pune advised him to carry ceremonial dress and lounge suits since there would be many occasions to socialise with the tea garden people. After a gauge change and a long train journey, the troops reached Misamari on October 21.

Since the transport was limited, heavy baggage was carried on the vehicles while the men marched by night and rested by day. After six days of marching, the battalion reached Bomdila, 134 kms away.

In a sign of the times, while at Chako, Nair bumped into another battalion similarly marching towards the front. Except that it was being led by a second lieutenant (the junior-most ranking officer in the army) since other senior officers had gone ahead in vehicles. At the young officer's request, Nair took charge of that battalion as well.

On October 27, the battalion was asked to prepare defences at Bomdila. But the very next day, the orders were changed and they were asked to move to Dirang. Here, one company (around 120 soldiers) was detached and sent to defend the divisional headquarters in Dirang. Here, the battalion was further spilt up into two and one company was sent to the west towards the Bhutan border.

On November 9, reports were received of some Chinese movement east of the Sela Pass. So Nair with one company was asked to move to a mountain feature called Nykmadung along a track that ran parallel to the Dirang-Sela-Towang road. Such was the lack of trust that a brigadier, who was present, suggested to Major Nair that he should get these orders in writing!

At the same time, another battalion defending the Sela pass was asked to move south and 'trap' the Chinese column. When Nair asked about the likely strength of the Chinese, he was told the commander had no information.

On November 10, Nair with around 120 soldiers left for Nykmadung. He was given an artillery officer despite the fact that the area was out of gun range. To cap it, the officer was a greenhorn, not even trained to control artillery fire.

On the night of November 14/15, Nair was asked to send a platoon to intercept the Chinese. This platoon, without the support of any heavy weapons, was ambushed by a far superior Chinese force and wiped out.

While this action was in progress, a party was organised at Dirang to celebrate the battalion's victory in the 1947 Kashmir conflict. The general himself was in attendance. While Nair was desperately trying to figure out how to retrieve his platoon, he received a telephone call from the battalion adjutant that Nair had to give a written explanation why he had failed to buy a ceremonial sword!

Apparently, General Pran Nath Thapar, the then army chief, had issued an order that all officers would be in possession of a ceremonial sword by a given date!

In the meanwhile, the Chinese had penetrated Indian radio communication and were passing on confusing orders. On November 19, Major Nair lost all contact with the battalion. He could see Chinese troops in large strength moving all over the area. Nair then took the decision to leave the main road and move east towards the foothills.

The men had no food, no warm clothing and reaching Chako was an ordeal. But Nair's company reached the rear with their weapons and in good order.

The bulk of the famous 'Red Eagle' Fourth Indian Division (that had won laurels in Italy [ Images ] and North Africa in the Second World War) disintegrated. Men ran back as individuals and an army turned into a rabble.

Nair's narrative explains the 'mystery' of the Indian Army's debacle in Arunachal Pradesh in 1962. Troops were moved without adequate familiarisation to unknown terrain. The officers had taken this to be another 'police action', like in Goa or Hyderabad. The Indian Army's leadership was following the strategy and tactics it used successfully against the 'Tribal Laskhar' in the Kashmir campaign of 1947.

Units occupying defences were sent on wild goose chases with inadequate support and with very little information about the enemy.

On the other hand, there was the Chinese army that had seen action in Korea. The Chinese army in that campaign showed how it could move large forces on foot. The Chinese nearly pushed the Americans into the sea in Korea using these very tactics.

The Indian Army's failure was due to unimaginative and soft leadership that had no clue how to fight a major war against a well-trained enemy. While then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru [ Images ] and Menon are rightly blamed for strategic blunders and policy mistakes, the Indian Army cannot shy away from accepting a major portion of the blame for the debacle in Arunachal Pradesh.

The interview with Lieutenant Colonel K P P Nair was conducted in Bangalore on June 21, 1987.

Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56Posts: 642Location: Some where near Equator...

Keeping Humor aside... why we need such thread at First place...

We may not be able to Win China with all our Might in case of War but then we can also not be defeated in current scenario... One common perception Indians have is China War Inventory is 2-3 times of us but no one gives a thought that not all of it is deployed against India; In case of War they can't just throw each and everything at us - they have other theaters of crisis like Taiwan; Japan, US and list goes on for which they need to maintain decent level of Arm inventory...

Also we should not forget that they don't believe in Kabadi Business and hold all antique War Inventory with them to inflate overall numbers...

There are some areas of concern like Infrastructure and Missile group presence near our Border; Infrastructure is two edge sword - it will help us if we cross the line to penetrate faster... Also it will be first to go by Indian missile strikes in case of War...

I am not juts dreaming that "All is Well"... there are areas of improvement but Defeat is surely not an option + realistically not happening...

We may not be able to Win China with all our Might in case of War but then we can also not be defeated in current scenario... One common perception Indians have is China War Inventory is 2-3 times of us but no one gives a thought that not all of it is deployed against India; In case of War they can't just throw each and everything at us - they have other theaters of crisis like Taiwan; Japan, US and list goes on for which they need to maintain decent level of Arm inventory...

.

Try saying this in any other thread and you will get shouted down and accused of being asleep and ignoring China and imaginng al iz vel. Here no one objects.

We may not be able to Win China with all our Might in case of War but then we can also not be defeated in current scenario... One common perception Indians have is China War Inventory is 2-3 times of us but no one gives a thought that not all of it is deployed against India; In case of War they can't just throw each and everything at us - they have other theaters of crisis like Taiwan; Japan, US and list goes on for which they need to maintain decent level of Arm inventory...

.

Try saying this in any other thread and you will get shouted down and accused of being asleep and ignoring China and imaginng al iz vel. Here no one objects.

Try saying this in any other thread and you will get shouted down and accused of being asleep and ignoring China and imaginng al iz vel. Here no one objects.

Shiv, there is a good side to it - we keep on crying hoarse till we build strengths far superior to that of China (do not worry if it takes 100 years, we now almost never have a dhoti-shiver with Pak) And as a nation, India needs to wake up from the slumber once in a while..

defence minister A K Antony on Monday asked the military top brass to go beyond the expected schedules for completion of the projects "in view of the current security scenario"....

"We need to go beyond the PDCs (proposed date of completion) in view of the current security scenario," Antony told a meeting to review infrastructure development on the northeast border. The meeting was attended by chiefs of the Army and IAF, defence secretary, the chief of BRO (Border Roads Organisation) and other senior officials.

The minister setup a monitoring committee under the vice-chief of the IAF, and comprising representatives from the MoD and other arms, to constantly monitor the revival of advance landing grounds and other airfields. While eight advanced landing grounds are under revival in the northeast, over 30 airfields primarily for helicopter operations are also being developed or revived.

We may not be able to Win China with all our Might in case of War but then we can also not be defeated in current scenario... One common perception Indians have is China War Inventory is 2-3 times of us but no one gives a thought that not all of it is deployed against India; In case of War they can't just throw each and everything at us - they have other theaters of crisis like Taiwan; Japan, US and list goes on for which they need to maintain decent level of Arm inventory...

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Try saying this in any other thread and you will get shouted down and accused of being asleep and ignoring China and imaginng al iz vel. Here no one objects.

Well since the premise of this thread is that China wins what's the use of getting worked up? Why shiver in our leotards while at ballet practice? Don't worry, have curry and send the kids to car bomb manufacturing class. Wolverines!

If the defeat was a "minor" one, e.g. we fight a border war, we lose some territory, then: the government will fall, we'll see a renewed emphasis on defence expenditure for 4-5 years - and that's it. There would be commissions, enquiries, books, articles, delegations, negotiations, etc. for a couple of decades.

A "major" defeat, which involves Z-99s rolling down Rajpath, is unlikely. Possible, yes, but by the time that happens both (or all three) nations would have suffered so much in terms of lives, money, and economic progress that the question would be moot. After a few years of suffering an insurgency, the Chinese would be happy to accept a face-saving exit back to Beijing...

A "catastrophic" defeat, where all major cities are reduced to radioactive dust: okay, they win because we destroyed 35 of their cities and they destroyed 50 of ours. Nothing to do but pick up the pieces for decades afterwards, for both.

We should build a strong resistance force in Eastern and NE India for a situation similar to the one where Chachaji's heart went out for the NE people.In the event of Nuclear war, maximum possible destruction on chinese cities. Of course , we may get more from them. Lob also a dozen on Pakis even if they keep out of the war. This is to prevent the pigs from coming in. We should also keep a few reserved for Banglas, Srilankans, so that they do not come at us like vultures. In effect entire region back by 500 years .

It all started with PRC making a photoshop video of stealth 6th generation fighterEvery one knows PRC is copyright master al Fakistan supporting al Terroristan.

We being Al Fakiristan will lose only

Most importantly our Nukes were tested underground who knows they will work above ground?

Only Jones of the world can tell us here as they have His Masters Voice recording equipmentRemember the watchful dog sitting in front of the bull hornLike this

Hey, I can't help it if you guys are preparing for Chinese victory. I would suggest negotiating with Russia for more weapons to make sure you can deal with the Sons of China. And Sri Lanka. And Bangladesh. And last but not least Pakistan. Don't wanna leave them out.

I, for one, have started teaching Kung fu to my son(not the weak sauce Kalari, mind you). When the Chinese will surely reach the South and kill me, I hope my son is ready to avenge them with Kung fu. I have seen enough Chinese movies to know this will work. Chinese can't be wrong.

I, for one, have started teaching Kung fu to my son(not the weak sauce Kalari, mind you). When the Chinese will surely reach the South and kill me, I hope my son is ready to avenge them with Kung fu. I have seen enough Chinese movies to know this will work. Chinese can't be wrong.

It is the Indian martial arts that went to chippanda nation and flourished.. and people have long forgotten.. which is understandable, since people have even forgotten that we have a democracy, and living in a free country. At large, many people of desh still think they are economic slaves to the rich, clans, fascism and kingship. .. and these people are the actual illiterates who is putting all of us down to shame.

We may not be able to Win China with all our Might in case of War but then we can also not be defeated in current scenario... One common perception Indians have is China War Inventory is 2-3 times of us but no one gives a thought that not all of it is deployed against India; In case of War they can't just throw each and everything at us - they have other theaters of crisis like Taiwan; Japan, US and list goes on for which they need to maintain decent level of Arm inventory...

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Try saying this in any other thread and you will get shouted down and accused of being asleep and ignoring China and imaginng al iz vel. Here no one objects.

Well, to put it mildly, most people are not very bright here and definitely very very ashamed of their origin. Many are also NRIs so that explains part of it . I am surprised that MODs don't take any actions when dhimmified commentaries and opinions are passed on as truths. Sorry to say but the ratio of rational,proud as well as intelligent posters to whiners, moaners, guilty Indians is pretty low on this forum (not necessarily restricted to this forum alone, whining seems to be a big part of a majority of us). I would again request for a better title to this thread. Also, figuratively speaking, we have a total headcount of 15 lakh soldiers, chinese are 22 lakh, pretty equal number wise. Technologically , our armaments are still enough to fight and sustain a war. Although I am not sure of leadership and that is the biggest weakness of ours, no leadership, and too pacifist to do anything.

Cannot agree more. NRI = Non Reliable IndianIf India with a professional army cannot ensure a good response (in some cases asymmetrical), then its a shame, because even today Vietnam can give a bloody nose to China.

Well, to put it mildly, most people are not very bright here and definitely very very ashamed of their origin. Many are also NRIs so that explains part of it . I am surprised that MODs don't take any actions when dhimmified commentaries and opinions are passed on as truths. Sorry to say but the ratio of rational,proud as well as intelligent posters to whiners, moaners, guilty Indians is pretty low on this forum (not necessarily restricted to this forum alone, whining seems to be a big part of a majority of us). I would again request for a better title to this thread. Also, figuratively speaking, we have a total headcount of 15 lakh soldiers, chinese are 22 lakh, pretty equal number wise. Technologically , our armaments are still enough to fight and sustain a war. Although I am not sure of leadership and that is the biggest weakness of ours, no leadership, and too pacifist to do anything.

prabir wrote:

Cannot agree more. NRI = Non Reliable IndianIf India with a professional army cannot ensure a good response (in some cases asymmetrical), then its a shame, because even today Vietnam can give a bloody nose to China.

The above two confirm the theory of the first two stooges ( and count me in as third as "Larry" U two being Curly And Mowe) the IQ level

one says 15 lakhs = 22 Lakhs ( confirms Madrasa Alia math Magnum cum Laude level)the other saysNRI are non relaible, must have been visa (its every where you want to be,) but only rejected case.

^^^ someone is butthurt looks like truth cannot be digested by the superior NRI's here. How dare a SDRE villager point to a hi-fi NRI with amreeki/Queendom accent english?? Saikji,most of your comments are just sarcasms of the "oversmart" kind, please control that first before calling me a casteist. Also, learn the definition of caste before complaining.

The point i was trying to make : Indian army is as effective as the GOI. The problem is not with the Army but with the GOI ( babus and netas ). They divide the army in lines of caste and community, promote wrong generals, starve funds and equipments, force them to fight with one hand tied etc etc. In one Bollywood film there was scene where an IA officer asking permission to shoot netas and babus and saying "sir we can take care of the Pakis and Chinese any time but who will take care of these scum bugs..".

If the GOI keep on the right things like Kasab hanging, stamping of Chinese passports with Indian maps, fast tracking equipments and funds for Chinese sector, shooting down electronically objects in space ( 120km interception is close to that in the recent test ) then this dhoti shivering will be automatically be replaced with dhoti lifting.....and we will replace "by" with "of"....Lets hope that National sense does not prevail only in the run up to the National elections.

The only time Indian govts wakeup fromt their slumber is when the threat is already upon us like the Kargil conflict. After that for a couple of years they go on a buying spree and after that its back to twidling thumbs as usual.

Nah what serious everything shown by Chinese is fake , bogus and mostly quantity junkThey are good at piskology warfare and we can beat them with .303 rifles and canvas shoes which we did. Even Nizams body guards discharged themselves very well in 1962.

Chill out folks we are now in the reign of 4G four Gandhis nothing to fear

I think there is a degree of racism in imagining that the Chinese cannot do great things and that we need not mock, but merely cheer when greatness comes from the USA.

But the feeling that makes us admire the US as it arms Pakistan and say "The US works for its interests. Suck it up. Get used to it" makes us sit back and think that the US has some kind of god given right to do great things. We have to accept that philosophically because the US is too great. But China - many of us seem to think that if we self flagellate we will suddenly grow up and grow balls against China. No such thing will occur. As long as we imagine that our threats come from Pakistan and China alone and can be countered by growing up or getting our own asses kicked all that we can expect is to get our asses kicked.

China did India a great favour by openly bashing us up in 1962. We now fear them. Surprisingly, we do not fear the US. because if we feared the US as much as we fear China, I believe we would work harder for self reliance. We just think China is a threat and the US is a friend. The Chinese are ahead of India is keeping their eyes open and seeing that the US is a threat. Also India. India also ran. The US will fear China. India will remain an also ran.

It is dhimmitude to accept defeat. It is a sign of hope to fear. We fear China. We have accepted defeat from the West. We cannot even imagine getting near the west. We have to "suck it up and live with it". China has not done that and that is admirable.

There will come a day when a Chinese carrier with support vessels will sail into the Indian ocean. The ships will get support from Pakistani ports. This is inevitable. It is not only US ships that are allowed to sail into distant oceans. Others can do that too. But we need to plan to knock any navy out, not just the Chinese navy. So if they sail into the Indian ocean they will allow us to see them and allow us to test them.

We have allowed Japanese trawlers to collect sand from Indian beaches. Fishing vessels from everywhere hunt in the Indian ocean. Italian marines shot Indian fishermen in Indian waters. Dinghies sailed into Mumbai with terrorists and they went undetected. Tomorrow will be the 4th anniversary of that. Iran, that supplied Pakistan with arms in the last India-Pakistan war was building up such a formidable Navy with US help just before Khomeini that I was surprised at the lack of panic in Indian newspapers. Luckily that changed, but even today the Pakistani navy is close enough for us to worry and they have equipment and support from the USA whose power I have been asked to "Suck it up and live with it"

Hey we can suck it up and live with Chinese power no? Why the extra worry about China?

Shiv saar, I doubt racism plays a part in mocking the Chinese and gaping in awe of the West. If you are not talking about Han specifically, I am sure people have a healthy respect for capabilities of say, Korea and Japan. People say end justifies the means and it doesn't matter how Chinese come up with the glittering military toys as long as they have them. In battlefield, perhaps. But it is difficult to admire or attribute to greatness beyond a point.Why China is so confident, why these periodic c**ktease grainy pictures and videos of military toys released as if they surreptitiously taken by common citizens? If the Chinese are not confident, why should we be confident on behalf of them.I also doubt if these Chinese peekaboo revelations are aimed at US. Possibly aimed at the neighbours across the pond or across the molehill.