I'm not very active around here but I have to say I was startled to see a thread like this here. I find JGO to be:- full of helpful people- the only site actively discussing VM internals in a comprehensible manner- attracting newcomers, certainly the first stop if you've taken a quick java course and want flex your skills by making an asteroids clone- definitely not full of bickering, i haven't noticed anything so it must be far less common than in most other communities

It's not laziness, it's just that if we're absolutely honest, they're basically so bad, incomplete, or experimental, it's usually not even worth the time spent looking at them. Occasionally a good one comes along and you can tell it's good because people comment on it a lot. As for the TUER thread, well, that is gouessej talking to a wall, but he seems to like that.

princec, speaking your mind, very cool.

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Thing is this is a developers' forum in the end, and although there's lots of people who like to tinker with games programming and design not many people ever really make anything worth looking at because there's not much in the way of artists or sound engineering going on. To begin with all I did here was ask questions. Lots of them I only started posting about my games when they got good enough to post about, which kinda coincided with Chaz starting on the art.

Cas

Not everyone is a perfectionist. Its good that you dont need the early stages of encouragement. But alot of developers do. For some people programming is a hobby/retreat. Your right that when a game looks good and is shown in the later stages of development, it gives a WOW factor. But, until a game becomes commercial what point is there to win over an audience if they are just fellow devolpers.

Also from reading gouessej posts. I really get the impression that the guy has so much energy. helps when im out of programming juice, as it always makes me wanna get back to what i was programming.

I've been reading this forum for a few years now, ever since I had a course in the now obsolete Java 3D during my study I have to say the average poster here is actually quite a good programmer, which makes it extremely interesting to read some threads, especially when guys like Riven start to discuss the inner workings of the JVM. One thing that's also mentioned by Cas is that, even though there are lots of talented people here, they don't tend to make a lot of good games. I think the reason for that is simple: most of us (including me) are following Java gaming out of interest, and not because we're employed to do it. If you look at my own situation, I made only a single game about a year ago, and sometimes I still make improvements to it, but not too much simply because I don't have the time, besides work and other things I just don't have many hours for it.

This is especially clear during the 4k games contest. Suddenly everyone is putting in the hours and the results contain a fairly high number of good games (I *really* liked the World Rally game btw ).

So the main reason for the lack of good games posted here is that almost everyone is a hobbyist. That doesn't mean this forum should not exist though, if you look at Adobe's forum for Flash (where nearly all people that post are 'professionals') and see the ridiculously low level of the average poster there, this place is heaven.

I think it'd be nice if we started to look at the other 90% of what games development is about too on JGO. Just 10% of it is a bit of nifty programming. Then there's graphics, sound, music, presentation, polish, gameplay, even biz. There are subtopics covering some of this but they're like graveyards, probably because they're subtopics.

See, it's no good expecting feedback for a bit of programming - few people really care enough to comment, with the notable exception of a few like gouessej and kevglass etc. The 4k compo was quite clever in that it places much heavier weighting on the programming aspect of game development (probably why it is so popular here). But the same lessons we've learned in the pseudocommercial world are just as relevant in here as they are out there: if you want feedback, or even for people to click and play, it's got to look good, sound good, play good, and have those bells and whistles. It's got to be compelling. There's just so much dross on the internet these days perhaps it's time everyone took a good collective look at what's out there and what's in here and figure out a proper, honest appraisal of it all and have a good think about making stuff better.

I personally think that things are posted cause people want input. But I have learned (through rejection) that you must develop something as much as possible b4 handing it out. People will look at your game, go "ahh another dumb game" and then never come back. Simply cause they think you will never impove it to the point where it is worth it.

Thing is this is a developers' forum in the end, and although there's lots of people who like to tinker with games programming and design not many people ever really make anything worth looking at because there's not much in the way of artists or sound engineering going on. To begin with all I did here was ask questions. Lots of them I only started posting about my games when they got good enough to post about, which kinda coincided with Chaz starting on the art.

Moreover I rarely even look in the showcase sections.Ok that is in part to using ubuntu and somehow webstart etc is crappy esp under 64 - why doesn't sun have a ubuntu repository for jre, they have one for virtualbox anyways that was a bit offtopic.

I like challenges and troubleshooting in a pure technical matter. I don't have the gameplay-touch as some ppl do. The only good gameplay that came out of my hands was ultimately introduced by bugs. And as I silly enough make stuff that iether works or not at all(due to something missing mostly) those random gems aren't found anymore.

I joined this community in part for the recognition that there are problems that are typical in games but occur sporadic in other area's and vice versa. As usually the case in area's where something occurs often more effort is put in which usually leads to better solutions. I joined to study those situations and try to apply them in area's where it occurs sporadically.

It's not laziness, it's just that if we're absolutely honest, they're basically so bad, incomplete, or experimental, it's usually not even worth the time spent looking at them. Occasionally a good one comes along and you can tell it's good because people comment on it a lot. As for the TUER thread, well, that is gouessej talking to a wall, but he seems to like that.

Thing is this is a developers' forum in the end, and although there's lots of people who like to tinker with games programming and design not many people ever really make anything worth looking at because there's not much in the way of artists or sound engineering going on. To begin with all I did here was ask questions. Lots of them I only started posting about my games when they got good enough to post about, which kinda coincided with Chaz starting on the art.

Cas

true dat!, the game, no offense, has to be appealing and somewhat look interesting for me to try it. Maybe i'm too picky but time is precious

I usually don't play games here simply because they usually don't work on my Mac (or Java 5), and if they do work, they might lock me in full screen, take forever to load, write junk to my home directory, or crash my browser. Yikes!

I think it'd be nice if we started to look at the other 90% of what games development is about too on JGO. Just 10% of it is a bit of nifty programming. Then there's graphics, sound, music, presentation, polish, gameplay, even biz. There are subtopics covering some of this but they're like graveyards, probably because they're subtopics.

They're also almost entirely independent of language. Why would people who focus on those areas want to come to JGO in the first place rather than going a site which is focussed on those areas and language-agnostic?

I really like to test game or even incomplete demo on the showcase and give some feedbacks, but here are few things that I found annoying :- have to register an account without a clear explanation of the game before- demo running too slow, only on very lastest jvm, or even crashing my browser- webstart (when they dont requiere to be, I understand it is sometime necessary)- no screenshot

The problem with Java4k is that it only happens once a year. Not only that, but if someone open sources their 4k game other people will clone it, and than it might not get as high on the contests. Infact, people might even clone it without the source if they can. Maybe if there was a 4k for each month, it'd be different. nothing big, just like 5 games and two judges. It could be simple.

Anyway, DzzD, the problem is that my game was made sure to not crash the browser, looked good, had a screenshot, and ran normally 90% of the time. Still people didn't comment on it except rarely. People are commenting on it more now, and I'm going to implement what they suggested. I'm just working on a Object Editor for my Map Editor right now, so I can't respond right away. I know that makes me a little hypocrite, and I am very sorry and hope that these fine people won't lose interest by the time I update.

The main problem is also that I can't/couldn't get feedback anywhere. I would expect JGO to be a lot more helpful because they really need a killer app for Java, and if no one tries than it won't happen. I hate to sound like Bob from Bob's Game, but it does seem like no one else is trying to make that killer app for Java, so I would expect a lot more attention, encouragement, and most importantly: ideas.

Some of the thing that I would like to see around would be more artist/game designer. There is a lot of good programmer around, but not much of the other people need to make great game. Many people here are developping their artistic skills at the same time than their programming skills, in order to be able to make their game. That may just be too much for a hobby.

I really like the idea of the community project that what shout a while ago (I hope they are doing fine). Community project are really a thing we should look more into. I know that many people could just do a great game alone and that it would be easier to make it alone than in a team, but really working alone to make a RPG or something like that... Maybe a good start would be to make a really simple game but in group. A game that already everybody could do alone in a couple of week/month but instead trying to make it in a group to devellop your skill in that area.

For the moment, I'm still stuck in the ''noob'' phase but I hope to be able to help the community later

Some of the thing that I would like to see around would be more artist/game designer. There is a lot of good programmer around, but not much of the other people need to make great game. Many people here are developping their artistic skills at the same time than their programming skills, in order to be able to make their game. That may just be too much for a hobby.

The problem with Java4k is that it only happens once a year. Not only that, but if someone open sources their 4k game other people will clone it, and than it might not get as high on the contests. Infact, people might even clone it without the source if they can. Maybe if there was a 4k for each month, it'd be different. nothing big, just like 5 games and two judges. It could be simple.

Anyway, DzzD, the problem is that my game was made sure to not crash the browser, looked good, had a screenshot, and ran normally 90% of the time. Still people didn't comment on it except rarely. People are commenting on it more now, and I'm going to implement what they suggested. I'm just working on a Object Editor for my Map Editor right now, so I can't respond right away. I know that makes me a little hypocrite, and I am very sorry and hope that these fine people won't lose interest by the time I update.

The main problem is also that I can't/couldn't get feedback anywhere. I would expect JGO to be a lot more helpful because they really need a killer app for Java, and if no one tries than it won't happen. I hate to sound like Bob from Bob's Game, but it does seem like no one else is trying to make that killer app for Java, so I would expect a lot more attention, encouragement, and most importantly: ideas.

So what? So people didn't want to try your game out and offer comments. What should JGO do about it? Nothing. You can't force people to do something they don't want to do. So, all of your points about screen shot, not crashing browsers, etc. is moot. Putting in artificial gates to force people to participate is the FASTEST way to kill a community. And there are plenty of examples of awesome Java games, hope yours will live up to your own hype.

Perhaps people don't think your game is the killer app? That's ok, and perhaps yours is. But that does not matter. And, you are kind of channeling a bit of Bob, now that you mention it....

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It's my belief that to make a good game you have to follow this code:

while(game.notGood){ if(game.getFeedback(User) == bad); reviseGame();

else game.setIsGood(true);}

I shouldn't have responded so quickly yesterday. It was late, I was tired, and I have had more time to sort this out.

I am not going to divest from JGO. However, I will be looking to take volunteers who want to run the day to day, make improvements, build features, artwork, etc. and co-run the site. Keep sending the PMs

EDIT: BTW, and don't take this the wrong way, but you have only been a member here for 2 months. To come in to a community and expect the feedback, and in your words, the attention you feel your efforts deserve is a bit..... unreasonable. There are many other seasoned vets of JGO here that get the attention because they have earned the reputation and right within the community.

I agree with you but when I complained about the fact that some people complained but didn't offer any assistance about the previous JGT, you said that they had not to help me, you're not coherent.

And I stand by that assertion. No one is required to help me. People can complain all they want! Just as I am not required to pay attention to every single complaint that comes in here. However, I am much more willing to listen when the complaint is followed by the offer to help. Case in point, some members wanted certain icons changed to make the site more readable. They made them and I implemented them.

The difference between JGT and JGO is that you wanted any and all volunteers to adhere to your philosophical POV when it came to the site and that caused a rift in your own community. What is happning here is in no way what happened to the first JGT community. Not at all.

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I have the same feeling. It is important to get some feedback and some help, it is a nice place. I don't think JGO sucks. I don't think that the JGT sucks even though I disagree with the way it has been done.Lol, tact is not my cup of tea but I test almost all Java games here even though I don't have enough time to post more frequently.

Tact is not necessarily a requirement and sometimes it's the lack of that helps get the point across

Initiatives outside JGO to add these features often die a quick death due to lack of visits, resulting in lack of motivation to improve.

If we could extend JGO with new features, within this forum, it could really grow in quality.

Now that I think about it, the only thin we'd really need (to get started) it READ_ONLY access to the `members`.`username` column and some function that validates a certain user/pass combo.

With that, extremely sparse (and safe) data, we could quickly grow our own extentions/features, which might get integrated in the forums, sooner or later, when ChrisM deems it should. To prevent poor apps from overloading the server, we could simply inject content with ajax, from our own servers.

As for the TUER thread, well, that is gouessej talking to a wall, but he seems to like that.

Do you really know what I like? I don't want to be aggressive; therefore, I prefer refrain from criticizing what you have done (I don't know what I could criticize as I like the Puppy Games). The source code of TUER is even used in some lessons of OpenGL in a few European universities, one of which is located in Portugal. You're not aware of the situation, the "wall" sometimes speaks and it is quite pleasant except when some members say that my game is only a shit with OpenGL underneath. I think that such behaviors may encourage some people to leave the JGO.

The difference between JGT and JGO is that you wanted any and all volunteers to adhere to your philosophical POV when it came to the site and that caused a rift in your own community. What is happning here is in no way what happened to the first JGT community. Not at all.

You're wrong, I didn't want anyone to adhere to any philosophical POV, I was interested in a subdivision of the community that already agreed with the previous rules of the JGT. I know it is not the same situation in the JGO. Finally, the FGF players' portal is smaller than the JGT but some Facebook users and some other people use it frequently, I'm fine

So what? So people didn't want to try your game out and offer comments. What should JGO do about it? Nothing.

I semi-disagree. I think that JGO should implement a review swap-like place, but since you don't agree I'll just make a topic for it and we'll see what happens. However the only thing I want in a gaming community like this is feedback for feedback, and I think that since I'm trying to promote java just like everyone else that they should want to help, and if they don't than there's something wrong. I want to help other people and games grow here, but I'm forced to spend all my time here hyping my game up so people will actually notice it.

EDIT: BTW, and don't take this the wrong way, but you have only been a member here for 2 months. To come in to a community and expect the feedback, and in your words, the attention you feel your efforts deserve is a bit..... unreasonable. There are many other seasoned vets of JGO here that get the attention because they have earned the reputation and right within the community.

If I understand you correctly you're saying that if a vet makes a pong clone, and a newbie makes a MegaMan X clone that people should notice the vet's game, and only give him feedback because the newbie hasn't been around that long, and I strongly disagree with that. We should let our games do the talking, not our post count.

If the guys implemented a rating system, personal blogs, and any other ego stroking bs. Its not really gonna help people program, just make a clutter f*** of a site(Just like the D.I.C website). this is decent, it works.

Its true that anything can be improved.

A few reasonable issues that all programers will run into, like a comment earlier about not enough graphic designers and such, as those that are core to game development issues, then maybe a future sister site, or something of the like for artists.

but seriously the site is great. Even CyanPrime who started the thread is now getting into what he wanted in the beginning, so really whats the problem? (thats rhetorical).

You simply have to STOP USING this ARGUMENT. Search this forum. Nobody said it HERE. Somebody might have said it, maybe, but NOT HERE.

Quit it. Stop derailing this thread.

It has been erased from the forum, it does not mean that it has not been written. I don't derail this thread, I have been attacked, I defend myself. I don't think Javagaming sucks, I only disagree with a very few words that has been used in the past, I know it happens very very very rarely. If I search some famous insults in the forum, I assume I will find almost nothing.

To be brutally honest, I don't think that TUER looking like a average software ray casting engine from the 1990s but actually using GL underneath is really a good advert for java for games development.

Ofcourse Chris didn't mean it like that. It's just that you just joined this community, and now your have this thread "why java-gaming.org sucks". Maybe it's you that have a bit of a skewed view of how things should be going on a forum where everybody spends their tiny bits of free time to share their knowledge.

JGO is only of the most welcoming communities. You'd be hard pressed to find a place that would be giving your the feedback on your game that you think it deserves. I completely understand that when you've put a lot of effort into something, and put it out in the open, you are dying for feedback, and hoping that everbody is thrilled by what you just achieved. Reality's a bitch though. It's just not how people 'work'. You have to sugercoat things to attract people. Just saying that you are working on a project and released revision #3 just doesn't cut it. We're all human, and we have to have our buttons pushed right.

Regarding the members with 'rep', well, yes, they get more feedback. That's just one of those social effects kicking in. If you see an ad of McDonalds of a new burger, you'll probably want to try it, while when the local snackbar would've placed that ad, you'd probably flip the page. It is unfair, sure, but you'll have to live with it, we all do. That's just how it works. Expect anything else and you'll be disappointed. It's just hard to get people to do stuff you want, in every community, until you get that reputation, and things get easier. Blame evolution.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings!

I semi-disagree. I think that JGO should implement a review swap-like place, but since you don't agree I'll just make a topic for it and we'll see what happens. However the only thing I want in a gaming community like this is feedback for feedback, and I think that since I'm trying to promote java just like everyone else that they should want to help, and if they don't than there's something wrong.

Why? Because someone disagrees with what you feel is useful for the community? You know, I can watch as many videos on YouTube as I want and never have to review/rate any of them. Same thing here. Just because you have asked for feedback does not mean that anyone is required to oblige. Period.

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I want to help other people and games grow here, but I'm forced to spend all my time here hyping my game up so people will actually notice it.

Again, if people care about it, they will post! If they don't, no amount of PR is going to save you. Talk to any number of game companies that built "The Next Great Thing(tm)" that no one purchased (poor Beyond Good and Evil. Damn, I loved that game!). Forcing people to participate is not a community. Sorry, it's not.

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If I understand you correctly you're saying that if a vet makes a pong clone, and a newbie makes a MegaMan X clone that people should notice the vet's game, and only give him feedback because the newbie hasn't been around that long, and I strongly disagree with that. We should let our games do the talking, not our post count.

You did not understand me correctly. People that have been here for a while, who have demonstrated over and over their skillset/games naturally receive more attention than people who just joined the community, regardless of how skilled they may be. Much of the reaction of the community is built around the attitude of the developer. Agreed that your games should do the talking. And, at the moment, not many people feel the need to give you feedback on your game. Perhaps THAT is telling you something?

Do you really know what I like? I don't want to be aggressive; therefore, I prefer refrain from criticizing what you have done (I don't know what I could criticize as I like the Puppy Games). The source code of TUER is even used in some lessons of OpenGL in a few European universities, one of which is located in Portugal. You're not aware of the situation, the "wall" sometimes speaks and it is quite pleasant except when some members say that my game is only a shit with OpenGL underneath. I think that such behaviors may encourage some people to leave the JGO.You're wrong, I didn't want anyone to adhere to any philosophical POV, I was interested in a subdivision of the community that already agreed with the previous rules of the JGT. I know it is not the same situation in the JGO. Finally, the FGF players' portal is smaller than the JGT but some Facebook users and some other people use it frequently, I'm fine

Not to belabor this, but, yes you did. Run on all major desktop platforms or not be accepted as a "complete" game until this requirement was met. People disagreed with this, you would not bend, and so they left and started a new site.

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