meat0918:profplump: darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.

No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?

You've never seen vegan fertilizer for sale, have you?

nocturnal001: meat0918: IRQ12: Am I reading this right: They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?

I thought she was vegan because "meat is murder" and her whole being a PETA spokesperson.

Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.

Which is not a true indictment though.

I don't agree with the Vegan philosophy but there are many things we no longer do that are "natural" but are now frowned upon due to moral reasons.

I'll submit on the natural point. I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy. My bad. I'll try not to repeat it.

I agree, it is decidedly LESS natural than an omnivorous diet. Aside from Gorillas, I don't know of any primates that are solid herbivores.

Yes, cows need to poop. But those cows aren't being raised to poop and then allowed to die natural deaths after a long life of pooping -- they're raised to be slaughtered and used as meat and other animal products.

And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis. That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...

You're the jerk... jerk:StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

Of course I guess it depends on the why of Veganism. Is it to prevent animal suffering? Then I guess it would fit. Still, somebody had to kill a chicken once in order to create that flavor. ;)

I imagine so. There are Buddhist meat analogs going way back in history. Someone had to know what they tasted like along with the textures. But most vegans are made not born. I ate almost nothing but meat until I gave some thought about how I was living. And they could ask an omnivore. No shortage of them.

I have no problem with flavorings. Most of the flavor of meat comes from the seasonings anyway. The principle is the same--have a chunk of food taste better.

I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.

legion_of_doo:MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born. Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid. UGH.

Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.

It's a blessing when you find normal parents.

You have my unwavering respect as a pediatrician. I do pediatric critical care transport, so I don't often have to deal with the overwhelming stupidity that leads up to the point of them needing my services like you do.

ThighsofGlory:legion_of_doo: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born. Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid. UGH.

You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.It's a blessing when you find normal parents.

You need to be educated.

Exactly.

Nutter: "You aren't doing XYZ? What kind of parent are you?! You need to read this blog!"

Wangiss:There may be some vegan, philosophical line somewhere about pooping being voluntary. In Japan, you say "I want to take a dump," whereas in English we say "I have to take a dump." Vegans may have some similar voluntaristic line they draw regarding the use of fertilizer. We should have an intern look it up.

Wangiss:And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis. That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...

I would still exist even if Drew Curtis had no interest in advertising money. Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

At best you could make an argument that the sale of cow poop doesn't significantly increase the demand for cow slaughter (though it clearly does increase the demand a bit simply by increasing the value of the slaughter-bound cow), but if you make that argument I don't see why it wouldn't also apply to breast milk -- the increased demand for animal products related to producing breast milk is very small and probably not a driving factor in whether or not animals are slaughtered.

legion_of_doo:You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

machoprogrammer:Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat. I don't. I'm not an animal. I can make choices that a dog can't.

Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk. It doesn't matter what their diet is. My ex produced plenty. One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.

Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing? My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born. Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

gajillion:I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.

Those darn vegans and them not wanting anything to do with the magic of rape racks, or breeding animals for our use at all! The absolute nerve!

Wangiss:give me doughnuts: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat. I don't. I'm not an animal. I can make choices that a dog can't.

Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk. It doesn't matter what their diet is. My ex produced plenty. One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.

Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing? My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born. Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

Vitamin D is easy to get.

Go stand in the sun.

Try getting vitamin D from the sun in a cold climate in winter...

Well it helps if you are white....s'why that mutation developed after all. And people listen to me: if you don;t want the 'beetus, make sure you do that sun-standing thing, or take a Vit D pill. Vit D is critical to regulating the body's effient use of insulin, so when you have adequate levels your body makes less insulin which does wonderful things for your health over all

I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

1. Put snakes on plane:meat0918: I'll submit on the natural point. I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy. My bad. I'll try not to repeat it.

And what vegans would those be? Vegans are capable of employing logical fallacies the same as anyone else, but there's no claim of veganism being "natural" in its definition.

I've met a few, in person, that have told me it is unnatural to eat meat. I have also met a few, and am still friends with them, that don't. We can even share a table without being dicks about our choices of food.

I'll make sure I point out the naturalistic fallacy in the unlikely event anyone ever says something similar to me again.

///I live in Eugene, Or, and travel in some very disparate social circles, to say the least.//Not hitting up the Oregon Country Fair this year though.

The My Little Pony Killer:You bet your butt I'll be working closely with her vet and with people who have successfully raised animals on that diet if I do take her that route.

The trick is to realize that in the animal kingdom muscle is rated low on the desirability scale; the organs are considered much more valuable to wild animals; they're what they'll eat first, given the option.

tuna fingers:Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.

As others have noted, we manage to get more babies to the 'live birth' phase, which we're more liberal with granting even for babies that are obviously not going to make it, meaning we lose more that way.

Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Yeah, It's not like Switzerland(32.4), Hungary(32.5), and Portugal(33) match the USA(32.3). Korea(35.1), Italy(38.4), Mexico(42), Turkey(42.7), China(46.2), and Brazil(47.4) have insignificant numbers of C-Sections.

Magorn:// Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

This. Their bodies are actually optimized to make sure the kid's fed even at the expense of their own. If they can't produce enough milk, especially for a 2nd child*, there's something seriously wrong.

I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.

I could be a lacto-ovo vegetarian, if it weren't for my love of seafood but never a vegan. We are omnivores, people. We at least need to be eating eggs and dairy and beans and rice. Actually, you can get most all of the nutrients you need from milk and potatoes. You know, you don't absorb the calcium as well in fat-free milk as you do from the real stuff, let alone soy or those other replacements. At least soy milk has enough protein. Babies should, ideally, have THEIR mother's milk. You pass your immunities on to your infant that way.

profplump:Wangiss: And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis. That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...

I would still exist even if Drew Curtis had no interest in advertising money. Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

At best you could make an argument that the sale of cow poop doesn't significantly increase the demand for cow slaughter (though it clearly does increase the demand a bit simply by increasing the value of the slaughter-bound cow), but if you make that argument I don't see why it wouldn't also apply to breast milk -- the increased demand for animal products related to producing breast milk is very small and probably not a driving factor in whether or not animals are slaughtered.

This statement is false: Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

Millennium:YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.

.Well-adapted, and very willing.My dog will be at my knee whenever I'm trimming any sort of meat... "Gonna Eat That?!?"

hardinparamedic: You have my unwavering respect as a pediatrician. I do pediatric critical care transport, so I don't often have to deal with the overwhelming stupidity that leads up to the point of them needing my services like you do.

I look at my kids' pediatrician as being on my team. She's a parent of a young kid herself. And my wife is the more cautious one when it comes to vaccines & such, in general.

What bugs me is the people who can afford it, have a lot of education, and choose not to follow the advice for their medical practitioners when it comes to simple stuff like vaccinations. It's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism. That some of their stupidity could bite us, like the reemergence of pertussis around here in California... pisses me off.

Pedes isn't easy at all, and anyone who thinks so hasn't thought about dealing with suffering children. So, kudos right back at you.

legion_of_doo:You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll? It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

legion_of_doo:t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.

Hebalo:machoprogrammer: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat. I don't. I'm not an animal. I can make choices that a dog can't.

Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk. It doesn't matter what their diet is. My ex produced plenty. One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.

Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing? My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born. Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Nana's Vibrator:I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to? Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing. What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful. And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Because some people have this need to feel morally superior to others at any cost.

George Babbitt:Hebalo:I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.

How much sunlight did you get/not get in that time? Humans bio-synthesize about 90% of our Vitamin D.

I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.

Coronach:I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

By the way, HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES.

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

hardinparamedic:legion_of_doo: t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.

Oh, you might be interested in this then. Another study has come out that catagorically disproves the link between vaccination and GBS.

Cool. That is the only thing that gives me pause when we go in for the flu vaccines each year, although now the kids can do the flu mist.

/waiting for the influenza vaccine protesters... OMFG, it's not even required!

hardinparamedic:legion_of_doo: t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.

Oh, you might be interested in this then. Another study has come out that catagorically disproves the link between vaccination and GBS.

Excellent. More debunking of the conspiracy nutters is always a good thing.

I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.

What types of meat, out of curiosity? Also, what blood type are you?

/Some people have suggested that blood type plays a role in what we should eat based on when blood types developed in human history and what humans wer doing at that point in their development i.e. hunting, nomadic, agrarian, urbanized

Mad_Radhu:Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to? Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing. What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful. And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Because some people have this need to feel morally superior to others at any cost.

Exactly. The need to feel morally superior is the only reason we aren't all out raping and murdering each other at this very moment.