General Mud makes an appearance in Jun which is welcome as it pretty much covers everything from the Riga Line south to just north of the Hun 2nd Army's positions. The Soviets make a few attacks in the mud, and are easily repulsed.

The crisis continues in the south however as clear weather here allows the Soviets to push more across the Dnester River.

12th Army stands up with two corps - one the XXXIX PzKps, just arriving from near Riga which goes into a defensive line just forward of the Prut river along some rough terrain to maintain contact with 1st Pz Armee pulling back northwest. The Hungarians slow the withdrawal a bit, as do some of 1st Pz Armee's forward infantry. 12th Army's right flank is weak - extending to maintain contact with 17th Army. We'll have to pull 17th Army back from the Dnester here shortly, and also start preparing for a Rumanian surrender. My plan here is to leave Rumanians forward to man positions and delay the Russians while I pull the German 17th Army west.

In any case, I'll have to reinforce Rumania with some additional forces - man the Prut River Line and garrison Bucharest and a supply line to Hungary for when Rumania collapses.

Amazing that Scar has 7M men at this point in the game (and props to him for fighting it out, I don't always have the same fortitude). Is that attributable to losses, industrial or unit wise, in 41/42 or just lack of APs, do you think?

The mud last turn across most of the front kept things quiet north of the Hun 2nd Army. There, the Soviets struck, and continued to press a gap between Army Group North and South Ukraine - being held thinly now by the newly formed 12th Army.

Both the Hun 2nd Army and 1st Pz Armee hastily fall back - at least as fast as they can with the mud.

Of course, now was NOT the time for mud in the south as Soviet attacks isolated a Ger Pz Div (along with a Rum div) - but we can't pick when General Mud comes to help out, or where. And even if I write this division off - no hope for relief - the mud will put the brakes on the Soviet Steamroller here in the south.

17th Army begins to pull of the fortified line after Kishinev falls - the army is now truly flanked, and needs to pull back toward the Rumanian border. Rumanians are left to man the forts if the Soviets want to attack in mud, at least they force casualties. And truly, I might as well start to attritt the Rumanians before they switch sides.

It is ridiculous how weak German army gets in '45. Despite massive over-performance it is same old story of artificially strengthening Soviet and weakening Germans.

It was mentioned several times, but it do not make it less annoying.

Oh please. German army has 3.7 million men. The Soviets aren't even into Rumania in July '45 here.

I think You got it completely wrong.

German army is very big, has plenty of tanks, on the other hand Soviet jugernaut isn't particulary mighty, yet Red side has great quality advantage. Why did it has to happened? How does it reflect in-game situation?

Not going into details (I do not want to hijack this excellent AAR) I think, that since '44 onwards game sadly becomes very poor - choices are restrited so much that there is not much fun left. (that doesn't change the fact that initiall years are great)

Kamil - I think we're about a 18mo behind to historical Soviet capability vs the German army. So, the Soviets here in '45 are pushing the Germans back as they historically could have in late '43 or '44.

Until the panzerwaffe was neutered by the Mar 45 upgrade and panzer production shut off, the panzers still had a pretty good counterattack capability up to that point. That last TOE upgrade is really the only qualm I have with the system - it could always be a bit better in some areas - and the upgrades have certainly helped. But nothing seriously has been "wrong" and overall the Germans were able to mount some very potent counterattacks giving the Soviets some pause. Not to mention a very good defensive capability throughout the war.

But since the March 45 TOE "upgrade" and the ceasing of panzer production completely, the "Downfall" is progressing rapidly. Playing into Jul 45 has certainly made me a fan of the alt victory conditions I've heard of.........next time.

Here, south of the Pripet, the Soviets attack clean through the southern corps of the Hun 1st Army. They strike deep and widen the penetration - exploiting past the next set of level three forts, manned only by fortified units to a depth of 100 miles in some places and widen the penetration to about 50 miles.

This caught me completely by surprise. Got lazy in my recon I guess, but didn't see the tank armies massing (about 5-7 or so). This of course not only unhinges the defenses of Armee Group North Ukraine, but endangers the entire 6th Army sticking out in a very narrow salient near Zhitomir.

My goal at this point is to extract as much of the 6th Army as possible. I'll pull some "excess" strength from 6th SS Pz Armee and reinforce 8th Army on the north side of the penetration (Hun 1st Army is played out...), and re-orient 4th Pz Armee (still with 3xPzKps "on paper") to allow 6th Pz Armee to pull back.

Shifting 4th Pz of course will weaken the other crisis - that against Armee Group South Ukraine - slowed now my General Mud's previous appearance.

Armee Group South Ukraine gets some respite from General Mud's showing last turn. Nothing happens. Nada. Not even the encircled Fuhrer Grenadier Pz Div is attacked, north the Rumanian screen line along the Dnestr River.

The question is whether that mass of Soviet armor across from 12th Army pushes NW toward Lvov, or turns south to take Rumania out of the war....

I plan on only delaying in Rumania with the 17th Army. 12th Army will remain on 1st Pz Armee's flank as it pulls northwest. He's got a very long way to go through Rumania if he runs that way - its just too challenging to defend properly after he crosses the Prut River into Rumania proper. Too open and the front expands just too much to be practical to defend in strength.

By this stage, unit quality is converging. Guards units in particular will be equal to or better than German forces, excepting perhaps some of the more elite units, but easily competitive with regulars and then some. Presumably that's what Kamil is referring to. This is just going by yearly national morale.

Given the game's extremely loose logistics, in the late war period it's very possible for things to snowball and the Soviet to depress Axis unit quality beyond the bare NM norms by nonstop offensives that batter unit morale, while jacking up their own. That hasn't happened in this game though, which is headed for a marginal Axis victory or at the very worst just shy of that. (If you're like me and don't believe in this whole post May 45 extra innings business, you'll consider the game over and the Axis having clinched a marginal victory already, but that's a different rant.)

Idaho has fought an exceptional defensive campaign here and prevented a Soviet runaway, but it's a real problem in the late war period.

Kamil says the Soviet side has an advantage in 'quality'; are you seeing that, in terms of unit experience?

Maybe you could explain what you meant ( Kamil ).

Flaviusx summarised it nicely

quote:

Flaviusx

Given the game's extremely loose logistics, in the late war period it's very possible for things to snowball and the Soviet to depress Axis unit quality beyond the bare NM norms by nonstop offensives that batter unit morale, while jacking up their own.

To add further to my comments above, consider the historical 1944 summer offensives. As things presently stand, it is nearly impossible to duplicate what happened historically. If the Soviet Union pulls off a Bagration, he's not going to stop at the Vistula due to logistical exhaustion. He'll just keep moving forward until mud hits. The German cannot do what Model did historically and scrape up enough guys to patch together the front and halt the Sovs while their supply lines catch up.

The morale system in the game creates a feedback loop here when combined with this logistical situation: nothing succeeds like success. The more you win, the better your morale and the worse the morale of the other guy. Over time we've put various limits to this and soft caps, but the feedback loop with morale is still there.

Op tempo is just too high. This is true for both sides, and I've been saying this forever. There's lots of things in the pipeline to address these issues in WITW, but there it is.

Agree 100% Flaviusx!! The panzers have kept a reasonable morale throughout the war - the infantry are mere shells of their former self as they have taken the brunt of the massed rifle corps attacks. The other issue is the forced experience loss as years go by regardless of actual casualties.

As for the tempo issue - again, agree 100% as this is a major issue - for both sides. To me, a fairly simple fix, which would more reflect historical capabilities is massively restrict the amount of supply an HQ can carry with it as it moves. The "HQ" in the game are a abstraction of both the comannd and control HQs and the logistical tails in the respective Army, Front, Corps etc. While the Command Posts could be somewhat agile (again a bit too easy to move in the game at the higher echelon levels), the logistical supply aspect represent both the supply "dumps" and the transport to distribute the that supply. The problem is that when a real world supply "dump" needs to move, all those trucks used for distro are now tied up moving the supplies to a new location, and are not available to distro the supply. Not so in the game, no real loss of effectiveness when a HQ moves. Not to mention the time it would take to "pack up" a large, corps or army level supply dump.

What I think would work well is what is found in WiTP AE when units have to go into strategic mode to be loaded on ships. Same principle here. A HQ can either move tactically, keeping its C2 capability but losing most (I'd say 90% of its supplies) the moment it moves a hex, and could move its full movement allowance. It would still be able distro those 10% amount of supplies to units. Next turn, it would begin re-stocking its supplies and function normally if it did not move. Perhaps corps (Soviet army) HQs could carry a larger percentage. Instead of moving tactically, a player could put his HQ in strategic mode. In this mode its command radius would be reduced by 75% - pretty much non functional - but it could move with up to 75% of its supply carried - Railmode automatically puts a HQ in strategic mode. Corps and Russian Army HQs could go into/out of strat mode in the same turn, taking maybe 33% of APs to do so. German Army and Soviet Front HQs could change mode at a cost of 80% of their APs.

Something to this effect would definately force decisions for a player to either 1) continue attacking once he's past the effective range of supply at a much degraded level as supplies diminish, or 2) pause the attack and wait for HQs to pack up, and catch up. This would give a much better feel for what you describe Flaviusx, allowing Model to scratch together a thin line as the Soviets packed up thier HQs and moved them forward.

This would also fix the HQ's "muling" issue I've read about in the forums.

Obviously something like this would need some playtesting to get the numbers right, and might be beyond the scope of the current system.

Wow, somehow it worked! German panzerwaffe can STILL manage some sort of counterattack at this stage of the war! Nice to know...

To deal with the Soviet breakthrough, the objective is twofold - first and foremost, extract 6th Army. Second, blunt the Soviet spearhead to preserve the next fortified positions. If possible, destroy Soviet armor of course.

To do this, I scrape together the panzerwaffe from 4th Pz Army - all three Pzkps totalling 5xPz and 2xPG Divs, about 600 or so AFVs, about a third of them in GD PG. The best of them I form up in XXIV PzKps. I leave two weaker PZ in LVI PzKps, leaving the IV SS PzKps with infantry only.

XXIV PzKps - also including two Tiger battalions, and assisted by 6th Army's 16th Pz Div, routs the 18th TK CP and then moves on to push back the 3rd Gd Mech CP. Although Soviet tank losses are about 3-1 to the Germans favor, the XXIV PzKps is now played out - and still has to pull back to the west. However, this attack alone allows 6th Army freedom of movement and it safely pulls back to the west - in some disorder, mixing with retreating elements of 4th Pz and Hun 2nd Armies, but most units pull back safely.

LVI PzKps now "exploits" the attack of XXIV PzKps. "Exploit" in 1945 is much different than "Exploiting" in 1941 of course.... The objective now is simply to cut the Soviet tank spearhead off to delay the advance - no hope of doing anything more dramatic. To this end, with 19th Pz on the right, and 1st Pz on the left, the PzKps conducts the ride of the Valkaries running through the Soviet lines much as Jeb Stuart once did to the Union in America's Civil War. 1st Pz actually does almost ride a ring around the Soviet lead elements. 19th Pz reaches the XXXXI PzKps of 8th Army and is transferred to that PzKps.

The result of that exploitation is that the lead Soviet elements are, for the moment, isolated. With some Hungarian 1st Army remnants left in the Soviet rear area, and it's lead elements isolated, this should, slow the Soviet Juggernaut to allow 6th Army to reposition along the fortified Goryn River line.

Of course, with 4th Pz Armee counter-attacking northwards, the Hun 2nd Army will need to expand north to cover 4th Pz Armee's area....which is not generally a good idea, but for now, its the best I can do.

To the south of "The last Panzer Victory", our armies are in full retreat....

Hun 2nd Army pulls back a good 40 miles, leaving a few delaying units forward.

1st Pz Armee likewise pulls back, oriented on Tarnopol, but also maintaining contact with 12th Army to it's south - so it's already stretching a weak Panzer Armee. It's XXXXVI PzKps is pulled up behind the 2nd Hun Army to refit and backstop, just in case the Soviets have some surprise up their sleeves....

12th Army actually manages a limited counterattack rescuing the FG Pz Div, encircled for two weeks. Mud saved it - nice. While defending along a river with some rough terrain, in level 3 fortified positions certainly helps, 12th Army is stretched to the breaking point, especially as 1st Pz Armee continues to pull back to the NW.

17th Army to the south falls back toward the Rumanian border, with a rear guard of Rumanians slowly following.

Bottom line is that it's going to get ugly in Rumania shortly - there's nothing I can do to prevent that. The goal here will be two fold - 1) maintain contact with 1st Pz Armee as it falls back toward Tarnopol, 2) delay Rumanian surrender as long as possible while being abe to 3) maintain the force once Rumania capitulates. #3 is going to be tough....

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer As for the tempo issue - again, agree 100% as this is a major issue - for both sides. To me, a fairly simple fix, which would more reflect historical capabilities is massively restrict the amount of supply an HQ can carry with it as it moves. The "HQ" in the game are a abstraction of both the comannd and control HQs and the logistical tails in the respective Army, Front, Corps etc. While the Command Posts could be somewhat agile (again a bit too easy to move in the game at the higher echelon levels), the logistical supply aspect represent both the supply "dumps" and the transport to distribute the that supply. The problem is that when a real world supply "dump" needs to move, all those trucks used for distro are now tied up moving the supplies to a new location, and are not available to distro the supply. Not so in the game, no real loss of effectiveness when a HQ moves. Not to mention the time it would take to "pack up" a large, corps or army level supply dump.

What I think would work well is what is found in WiTP AE when units have to go into strategic mode to be loaded on ships. Same principle here. A HQ can either move tactically, keeping its C2 capability but losing most (I'd say 90% of its supplies) the moment it moves a hex, and could move its full movement allowance. It would still be able distro those 10% amount of supplies to units. Next turn, it would begin re-stocking its supplies and function normally if it did not move. Perhaps corps (Soviet army) HQs could carry a larger percentage. Instead of moving tactically, a player could put his HQ in strategic mode. In this mode its command radius would be reduced by 75% - pretty much non functional - but it could move with up to 75% of its supply carried - Railmode automatically puts a HQ in strategic mode. Corps and Russian Army HQs could go into/out of strat mode in the same turn, taking maybe 33% of APs to do so. German Army and Soviet Front HQs could change mode at a cost of 80% of their APs.

Something to this effect would definately force decisions for a player to either 1) continue attacking once he's past the effective range of supply at a much degraded level as supplies diminish, or 2) pause the attack and wait for HQs to pack up, and catch up. This would give a much better feel for what you describe Flaviusx, allowing Model to scratch together a thin line as the Soviets packed up thier HQs and moved them forward.

This would also fix the HQ's "muling" issue I've read about in the forums.

Obviously something like this would need some playtesting to get the numbers right, and might be beyond the scope of the current system.

Very interesting point, you are right of course: Moving higher level dumps should interfere with distribution. I haven't thought about that yet, indeed, but this would definitely sound like a reasonable rule. They probably could have implemented something quite similar to the air transfer checks, i.e. whether air groups had flown yet, or like subtracting air miles for base movements: supply distribution based not only on the distance to units and railheads, but also on the number of left-over MPs. Sound like a very simple rule. Since the timescale is 7 days, explicit stance changes like in AE probably make little sense. I'd like to know how the new logistic model in WitW will look, apparently it is very different. I hope Joel reads your thoughts as well. Good point!

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer Agree 100% Flaviusx!! The panzers have kept a reasonable morale throughout the war - the infantry are mere shells of their former self as they have taken the brunt of the massed rifle corps attacks. The other issue is the forced experience loss as years go by regardless of actual casualties.

This probably is to reflect how the training and placement of new recruits etc. changed over the course of the war. Apparently a lot of the Soviet replacements in 41 and 42 had a rudimentary basic training at best before quickly rushed to the front, while later that situation improved while the Germans continuously shortened training intervals until the low point with the VG divisions was reached. I think it is okaish to have it that way, though explicit management of training pools like pilots in AE would be a neat addition in the future. They really shouldn't have called it "national moral", though.

Little activity across most of the front as the Soviets either are preparing, or, are catching up to the retreating Germans.

AGN, AGC, and Armee Group E are largely pretty quiet. Backed up by subsequent defense lines, good fortifcations and some of the best units left in the East, the positions look pretty good for now. The problem is the Soviets also figured this out, and really haven't tried to push hard anywhere north of the Pripet.

Which means, more than likely, he's shifting forces to easier pickings - south of the Pripet.

Which also means, I'll have to shift some of my better forces to counter this - weakening my core defenses.

6th SS Pz Armee - consisting really nothing more than than 3xSS Pz Divs and a weak infantry corps, will be the first to move in the next few weeks. Then other PzKps culminating with the 2nd Pz Armee (again, only really only a single, strong PzKps).

South of the Pripet, Armee Group North Ukraine prepares the best it can - along what fort lines remain, along whatever river we can utilize. Which isn't much.

6th Army and 4th Pz Armee aren't in bad shape position wise, but there forces remain depleted from the juggernaut Soviet thrust and their own counter thrust which limited the damage and allowed the front to be re-established.

Next in line is the Hun 2nd Army - largely intact, but with few AT weapons necessary to blunt a concentrated Soviet attack. It is back stopped by the 1st Pz Armee's XXXXVI PzKps and a few OKH infantry divisions railled in from AGC's rear areas.

I expect the next blow against the Hungarians, and will likely move the SS PZs there soon.

I had expected a push against both 1st Pz Armee and 12th Army - both fairly weak positions and stretched thin. Hasn't happened yet.

17th Army is now in fortified positions, and the Rumanians have also pulled back - now just waiting for the Soviets to catch up with the retreat...

Not going to really defend Rumania - once he pushes through the Rumanian defenses, Rumania will collapse and change sides. Front greatly expandes and 17th Army's right two corps will delay as best as possible through Rumania - I've got about 4 divisions in Rumania in and near Bucharest protecting rail lines, but I can't afford what really amounts to an army group to effectively defend down there.

I'm hoping the clock will run out before the Soviets can push well into Rumania - Yugoslavia to be a real threat to the Reich. We'll see...