These two are debating who the better player is. Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan?

Side debating KG is the better player
here it is

I'm debating whether Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan Don't get me wrong,they are both great player and future hall of famers
Garnett has a slight edge. For one,Garnett has never had the supporting cast that Duncan has had for his whole career but still manages to
put up great numbers throughout his 10 year career. Garnett is not one dimensional,he puts up great offensive numbers and great
defensive numbers.

One can argue on how Duncan has better fundamental tools but Garnett has the ability that not many big men have :
the ability to defend almost every position. Also Garnett has the ability to play any position such as point guard and has great dribbling
skills. Put Garnett with the supporting cast of Duncan and you will see the same amount of rings.

Garnett's passion for the game is shown in all his games,every game of his is 100% effort and passion. He never gives up and is one of the few players who earn their paycheck.Easily a top 5 power forward in the history of the NBA.

Side debating Tim Duncan is the better playerTim Duncan has the best fundamentals in the NBA, any player in the league, and not just among big men. Fundamentals used to be basketball's bible, but today, it's rare to hear a player described as fundamentally sound. Today, the NBA is filled up with guys who are athletically gifted, and can jump out of the building to throw a nasty dunk down. But basketball, especially in the NBA, is where individuals have to mesh within a team game, and I think this is really where Duncan shines.

Now letís set this straight, if Garnet and Duncan were playing pickup 1on1 or 2on2, Iíd probably choose Kevin Garnet, but does that mean he is the better basketball player in the NBA? Hell no!

Although Duncan seems to be barely above average in the: strength, speed, leaping, and quickness departments, Duncan seems to have a natural gasp on how the game should be played, a mental edge over everyone else on the court. Example? Duncanís signature bank shot, everyone knows he has mastered this shot, but why would he want it in the first place? Itís because in certain areas of the court, using the glass will have a MUCH higher percentage of being Ďgoodí than going for the net straight up. Duncan, although not a natural shooter, shows although he isnít a natural shooter, this is where he finds an advantage over other players.

Tim Duncan seems to always make the right decision in the clutch, I mean, no matter if they win or lose, Duncan is the guy that seems to rarely be at fault at the end of a close game. In the clutch: he rarely forces bad shots, can easily split double teams and find a team mate wide open, and on defense, he is the best at help defense to stop any penetration at the end of the game.

Tim Duncan makes his team mates better.
This is something that Garnet seems to lack severely, the natural ability to make his team mates better. Tim Duncan has made all stars out of role players. For example, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, in my strong opinion of course, are nothing but good role players without Duncan.
Take Tony Parker, he is an average point guard, who has a really below average shot, and his only gift is being slightly quicker than most defenders. But when he has a Duncan on the court, it seems like he can get lay ups at will. This can be attributed to the excellent mindset of Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan is better
Tim Duncan has shown he has success in his career, unlike Garnet. Duncan has 3 rings, 2 MVPs, and 3 Finalís MVP. Meanwhile Garnet has 7 first round playoff exits in his first 10 seasons while never getting to the finals.

Team contribution and Winning are really whatís important in the end. Well, isnít it?

Tim Duncan has the best fundamentals in the NBA, any player in the league, and not just among big men. Fundamentals used to be basketball's bible, but today, it's rare to hear a player described as fundamentally sound. Today, the NBA is filled up with guys who are athletically gifted, and can jump out of the building to throw a nasty dunk down. But basketball, especially in the NBA, is where individuals have to mesh within a team game, and I think this is really where Duncan shines.

I agree with you about how Duncan has better fundamentals but Garnett has possibly better tools in more aspects of the game. Garnett is athletically gifted and is very passionate for the game. Passion is just as important as skills and fundamentals,coaches prefer a passionate hard working player rather than a lazy skilled player.

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Now letís set this straight, if Garnet and Duncan were playing pickup 1on1 or 2on2, Iíd probably choose Kevin Garnet, but does that mean he is the better basketball player in the NBA? Hell no!

You are correct on how a pickup game doesn't determine on who is a better player but as of right now Garnett is a better player . Garnett has played longer than Duncan by 2 years but yet still has a fresher body. Wouldn't his body tear down being a #1 leader his whole career instead of Duncan who got the privilege to play with the great David Robinson? Duncan has been showing signs of declining this past season with injuries while Garnett had one of his best years putting up 22/13.

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Although Duncan seems to be barely above average in the: strength, speed, leaping, and quickness departments, Duncan seems to have a natural gasp on how the game should be played, a mental edge over everyone else on the court. Example? Duncanís signature bank shot, everyone knows he has mastered this shot, but why would he want it in the first place? Itís because in certain areas of the court, using the glass will have a MUCH higher percentage of being Ďgoodí than going for the net straight up. Duncan, although not a natural shooter, shows although he isnít a natural shooter, this is where he finds an advantage over other players.

Duncan does not have a mental edge over Kevin Garnett. Garnett has put this franchise on his back for 11 years. Brought them in the playoffs for 8 years in 11. He was on national television shedding tears which was basically shocked the world since he has that tough guy attitude. Garnett never had the teammates that Duncan has had. You can include that one year stint with Latrell and Cassell but that's one year out of 12. His teammates have said throughout his career that he won't talk to you before a game,he is so zoned out that he won't even listen to you. His attitude and intensity translates on the floor also. People forget that Garnett was the first high schooler to jump to the NBA but he had the right mentality coming in and is more mature than most college guys.

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Tim Duncan seems to always make the right decision in the clutch, I mean, no matter if they win or lose, Duncan is the guy that seems to rarely be at fault at the end of a close game. In the clutch: he rarely forces bad shots, can easily split double teams and find a team mate wide open, and on defense, he is the best at help defense to stop any penetration at the end of the game.

According to 82.com,Garnett is a top 5 clutch performer dismissing this season. They put rebounding,steals,fg's and ft's in perspective and has a slight edge over Tim Duncan. Garnett has versatility on Duncan,he can guard any position and also play any position which I have to say is rare for a big man to do. Garnett is a better passer according to stats. Better career apg than Duncan by more than 1%. It's because Garnett handles the ball more due to his incredible ball handling skills.

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Tim Duncan makes his team mates better.
This is something that Garnet seems to lack severely, the natural ability to make his team mates better. Tim Duncan has made all stars out of role players. For example, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, in my strong opinion of course, are nothing but good role players without Duncan.
Take Tony Parker, he is an average point guard, who has a really below average shot, and his only gift is being slightly quicker than most defenders. But when he has a Duncan on the court, it seems like he can get lay ups at will. This can be attributed to the excellent mindset of Tim Duncan.

Garnett is a better leader in Duncan because he is very emotional. He's physical and very verbal. If you aren't playing up to par than he's gonna tell you. Duncan's personality doesn't allow him to be the kind of take-over leader.

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Tim Duncan is better
Tim Duncan has shown he has success in his career, unlike Garnet. Duncan has 3 rings, 2 MVPs, and 3 Finalís MVP. Meanwhile Garnet has 7 first round playoff exits in his first 10 seasons while never getting to the finals.

Team contribution and Winning are really whatís important in the end. Well, isnít it?

Give Garnett a similar supporting cast that Duncan had his WHOLE career than he would put up the same or better numbers. Garnett never had a great cast,he brought a team that had Cassell as the second option. Garnett with the big 3 that was Cassell,KG and Spree had the best record in the NBA. His one year with a great supporting cast got him into the conference finals and also got the season MVP.

[quote=Skywalker]These two are debating who the better player is. Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan?

First, I'm going to counter Kobe24's opening statement:

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For one,Garnett has never had the supporting cast that Duncan has had for his whole career but still manages to
put up great numbers throughout his 10 year career

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That's right, but what has Garnett have to show with that 10 year career of great numbers?

Nothing. He has 7 first round playoff exits and 2 years of missing the playoffs. This is because Garnet lags behind Duncan in the aspect that Duncan is a true winner and can make his team perform well, while Garnet seems to get the stats, but it ends there.

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Garnett is not one dimensional,he puts up great offensive numbers and great
defensive numbers.

Right, but has nothing to show for it. Garnett seems to be the picture perfect fantasy basketball player, a player that racks up the stats and can carry a fantasy team to a championship. But the NBA is a different story for Garnett.

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One can argue on how Duncan has better fundamental tools but Garnett has the ability that not many big men have :
the ability to defend almost every position.

While I see someone could argue this, Garnett is able to guard Centers to some Small forwards, there is no way Kevin Garnett should be able to guard a point guard in the NBA. Garnett is versatile and a good one on one defender, but Duncan is vastly superior where it matters most to big men, Interior Post Defense. Duncan is arguably the smartest player on the low block for defense and offense. Duncan can defend better than anyone on he low block 1on1 and shut them down. He also has that knack for help defense to stop penetration, these are two categories where Garnett severely lags behind, and this is what matters for his position.

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Also Garnett has the ability to play any position such as point guard and has great dribbling

Although he has great Dribbling for a big man, there is little chance he would be anywhere close a successful point guard.

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skills. Put Garnett with the supporting cast of Duncan and you will see the same amount of rings.

Nah, not even close:
1. Duncan clearly has the ability to making average players, good, or even all stars.
2. Garnett had a GREAT supporting cast in 2003-2004(Prime Cassell, End Prime SpreeWell, Wally Szcerbiak, Hassell, Hudson, etc) but again, he couldn't carry carry his team into the finals, getting beat again to show he isn't a true winner. Or hasn't proved it ever into his career.

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Garnett's passion for the game is shown in all his games,every game of his is 100% effort and passion. He never gives up and is one of the few players who earn their paycheck.Easily a top 5 power forward in the history of the NBA.

Same could be said for Duncan, except the fact when he earns it, he let's his fans and organization know it by getting 2 MVP's, 3 Final's MVP, and of course, 3 NBA championships.

[quote=XxNeXuSxX][quote=Skywalker]These two are debating who the better player is. Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan?

First, I'm going to counter Kobe24's opening statement:

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That's right, but what has Garnett have to show with that 10 year career of great numbers?

Nothing. He has 7 first round playoff exits and 2 years of missing the playoffs. This is because Garnet lags behind Duncan in the aspect that Duncan is a true winner and can make his team perform well, while Garnet seems to get the stats, but it ends there

Garnett never had a reliable center. Rasho? Olowakandi? Basically non existent. So it was Cassell,KG,Wally and Hassell who I hardly count as a solid offensive contributor with his 7 career ppg. Garnett took this team on his back and brought them to the playoffs? I would think that would get tiring and hurt him physically and emotionally and usually the cause of him wearing down near the end of the season.

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Right, but has nothing to show for it. Garnett seems to be the picture perfect fantasy basketball player, a player that racks up the stats and can carry a fantasy team to a championship. But the NBA is a different story for Garnett.

Alright we are getting somewhere. So we agree that Garnett has the edge on statistics offensively and defensively? His efficiency leads a fantasy team to a championship so making him more efficient than Duncan?

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While I see someone could argue this, Garnett is able to guard Centers to some Small forwards, there is no way Kevin Garnett should be able to guard a point guard in the NBA. Garnett is versatile and a good one on one defender, but Duncan is vastly superior where it matters most to big men, Interior Post Defense. Duncan is arguably the smartest player on the low block for defense and offense. Duncan can defend better than anyone on he low block 1on1 and shut them down. He also has that knack for help defense to stop penetration, these are two categories where Garnett severely lags behind, and this is what matters for his position.

Garnett cannot guard the T.J Ford's or the Iverson's of the NBA but he can guard an average point guard. I've seen him guard point guard from the three point line and he kept his man in check which was impressive. Duncan has the edge on help defense and penetration due to his post defense IQ but Garnett has better low block IQ so it equals out imo.

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Although he has great Dribbling for a big man, there is little chance he would be anywhere close a successful point guard.

Definitely. He can play point guard for some stretches of the game. I'd say around 5-6 mins and he can play a point guard but not for the whole game.

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Nah, not even close:
1. Duncan clearly has the ability to making average players, good, or even all stars.
2. Garnett had a GREAT supporting cast in 2003-2004(Prime Cassell, End Prime SpreeWell, Wally Szcerbiak, Hassell, Hudson, etc) but again, he couldn't carry carry his team into the finals, getting beat again to show he isn't a true winner. Or hasn't proved it ever into his career.

Cassell actually had his best season with Minny in his 15 year career with Garnett. 82games.com pointed on how most of the assists to teammates have come from Garnett and not his point guards. 2 year old article but things haven't changed.

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"What jumps out is how dependent several Minnesota players are on Garnett to get their assists. Is this because they only have one play (give the ball to KG) or is something else at work? Why would Spree have 69 KG assists but only 11 Cassell feeds? Hmmm. "

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Same could be said for Duncan, except the fact when he earns it, he let's his fans and organization know it by getting 2 MVP's, 3 Final's MVP, and of course, 3 NBA championships.

PS: Kidd got robbed from Duncan for an mvp but that's not the issue,just had to bring that up.

Garnett shows the organization by not demanding a trade like other superstars would do. He also shows it by playing hard every game even when he has injuries that bother him.

I agree with you about how Duncan has better fundamentals but Garnett has possibly better tools in more aspects of the game. Garnett is athletically gifted and is very passionate for the game. Passion is just as important as skills and fundamentals,coaches prefer a passionate hard working player rather than a lazy skilled player.

Garnett is obviously naturally gifted athlete, he probably has the most ups for a big man in the NBA. Duncan, again, makes up for this deficit where he lacks in those athletic departments with importantly, smart play and fundamentals.

Garnett maybe passionate for the game, but he is no way the same kind of passion Tim Duncan has, Tim has the kind of passion that hypes up his team. Duncan has that ability to make everyone else better with his passion. And if Garnett does have that passion, it surely is lacking in the playoffs when it matters the most.

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You are correct on how a pickup game doesn't determine on who is a better player but as of right now Garnett is a better player . Garnett has played longer than Duncan by 2 years but yet still has a fresher body. Wouldn't his body tear down being a #1 leader his whole career instead of Duncan who got the privilege to play with the great David Robinson? Duncan has been showing signs of declining this past season with injuries while Garnett had one of his best years putting up 22/13.

Duncan only won 1 championship with the end-prime of the great David Robinson. 2003 Was good ol’ geezer David Robinson, but he wasn’t a major contributor. And of course in 2005, Duncan had no real center, playing with a scrub like Rasho Nesterovich for most of the season, and Nazr Mohommad as the other. But even though Duncan had an off year with injuries and what-not, he was still able to turn it up in the playoffs, averaging a pretty damn good 25.8/10.5/2.00 in it. Pretty good for someone who is “declining”. And during this time of the season, where was Garnett? He was sitting on the bottom of his division and out of the playoffs.

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Duncan does not have a mental edge over Kevin Garnett. Garnett has put this franchise on his back for 11 years. Brought them in the playoffs for 8 years in 11. He was on national television shedding tears which was basically shocked the world since he has that tough guy attitude. Garnett never had the teammates that Duncan has had. You can include that one year stint with Latrell and Cassell but that's one year out of 12. His teammates have said throughout his career that he won't talk to you before a game,he is so zoned out that he won't even listen to you. His attitude and intensity translates on the floor also. People forget that Garnett was the first high schooler to jump to the NBA but he had the right mentality coming in and is more mature than most college guys.

Yes he does, Garnett has caried that Timberwolves team on his back for 11 years and has once again, nothing to show for it other than 7 first round exits, 2 missed playoffs, and a disappointing conference finals loss.

Garnett had the chance when all of his team mates panned together for that ultimate conference finals run, but Garnett seemed to fade off once again and didn’t step up, like a winner should, and beat those Lakers in 2004.

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People forget that Garnett was the first high schooler to jump to the NBA but he had the right mentality coming in and is more mature than most college guys.

No, he was not the first high school player ever. He’s actually not really close to the first. There was 5 high schoolers that went before his 1995 draft, I will list them and their years:
1962 NBA Draft

* Reggie Harding, Detroit Eastern High School, Detroit, Michigan (1964, drafted a second time in 1963)

* Shawn Kemp, Concord High School, Elkhart, Indiana (1989, attended Trinity Valley Community College but did not play college basketball)

1995 NBA Draft

* #5 Kevin Garnett, Farragut Career Academy, Chicago, Illinois (1995)

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According to 82.com,Garnett is a top 5 clutch performer dismissing this season. They put rebounding,steals,fg's and ft's in perspective and has a slight edge over Tim Duncan. Garnett has versatility on Duncan,he can guard any position and also play any position which I have to say is rare for a big man to do. Garnett is a better passer according to stats. Better career apg than Duncan by more than 1%. It's because Garnett handles the ball more due to his incredible ball handling skills.

Garnett has known this year to disappear in the fourth quarter, which would make sense because of how many games they lost this past season. It’s actually shown here, Ricky Davis, Garnett’s team mate, took more shots than Garnett in the clutch (Fourth quarter) after he went to the Timberwolves in mid-season.

Garnett, you are absolutely right, handles the ball more than Duncan, which explains the stat edge in assists. But again, Duncan does almost everything that doesn’t show up in the stat sheet. He can get great unofficial assists by doing a usual, draws a double team, even when he doesn’t have the ball, and would set a great pick for a cutting team mate to get him and easy lay-up. Garnett handles the ball too much to that consistently.

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Garnett is a better leader in Duncan because he is very emotional. He's physical and very verbal. If you aren't playing up to par than he's gonna tell you. Duncan's personality doesn't allow him to be the kind of take-over leader.

Duncan is so that kind of leader, when you watch him in the fourth quarter, he will get up to his team mates, and tell them exactly what they are supposed to do, and in recent years, it has caused major success within the club.

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B]Give Garnett a similar supporting cast that Duncan had his WHOLE career than he would put up the same or better numbers. Garnett never had a great cast,he brought a team that had Cassell as the second option. Garnett with the big 3 that was Cassell,KG and Spree had the best record in the NBA. His one year with a great supporting cast got him into the conference finals and also got the season MVP.[/b]

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Right, Garnett had an amazing supporting cast that year, Wally Sczerbiak was the FOURTH option. (Today he averages 20PPG and his a legit second option). And Garnett, that season where he got the those conference finals, didn’t step it up when it mattered the most, again. He would let people like Troy Hudson take all the big shots, when he really needed to set up himself or one of the better options in the clutch. You could hypothetically say, put Duncan on that team, and they would have easily won a championship. But that’s all just stupid speculation of course.

Same with Duncan’s last year, he had Rasho Nesterovich, and I agree, he is basically a non-existant factor. But a lot of great players won without a true center within the team (See: Duncan, Michael Jordan, Pistons, etc). So it really shouldn’t be his excuse that he didn’t have a real center.

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So it was Cassell,KG,Wally and Hassell who I hardly count as a solid offensive contributor with his 7 career ppg. Garnett took this team on his back and brought them to the playoffs? I would think that would get tiring and hurt him physically and emotionally and usually the cause of him wearing down near the end of the season.

Cassell, Garnett, Wally, and don’t forget sprewell was on that team too. I would believe that Trenton Hassell isn’t on the court for his offense, but is supposed to be a great one - on - one defender, like Duncan’s Bowen, just less dirty.

You are admitting Garnett wears down at the end of the season, a great player also is supposed to turn it up come playoff time, like Duncan did in his 2006 campaign.

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Alright we are getting somewhere. So we agree that Garnett has the edge on statistics offensively and defensively? His efficiency leads a fantasy team to a championship so making him more efficient than Duncan?

No, my point was he can lead a fantasy team to a championship, but real life is a different story for Garnett, he has very little success come playoff time.

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Garnett cannot guard the T.J Ford's or the Iverson's of the NBA but he can guard an average point guard. I've seen him guard point guard from the three point line and he kept his man in check which was impressive. Duncan has the edge on help defense and penetration due to his post defense IQ but Garnett has better low block IQ so it equals out imo.

Ah, you do have a case here on the point guards, Garnett’s, I still admit, has through the roof athleticism, which does allow to be very versatile.

But how do you think Garnett has a better low block IQ? Do you mean that he is a better shot blocker? Because in their careers, Duncan has a 2.40 BPG average compared to 1.70 to Garnett according to NBA.com, this is just showing Duncan has the superior knack for all around IQ defense.

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[b]Cassell actually had his best season with Minny in his 15 year career with Garnett. 82games.com pointed on how most of the assists to teammates have come from Garnett and not his point guards. 2 year old article but things haven't changed.

It’s arguable, but I do see your case for that, Cassell averaged a solid 19.8 PPG / 7.3 APG. But it wasn’t even close to his career high year of assists where he averaged 9.0 in 99-00.
Not to mention, Cassell, with his next year in Minnesota, saw his averages decline horribly with 81 games of 13.7 PPG/5.1 APG, what happened here?

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PS: Kidd got robbed from Duncan for an mvp but that's not the issue,just had to bring that up.

Garnett shows the organization by not demanding a trade like other superstars would do. He also shows it by playing hard every game even when he has injuries that bother him.

Yeah, that’s all speculation, MVP’s are MVP’s as of right now.

And it’s great that Garnett doesn’t demand a trade, even through bad years, but either has Tim Duncan. Tim hasn’t even got himself into a situation where he would even think about demanding a trade, while Garnett only has himself to blame for the situations…(And maybe KM)

Tim Duncan has been the more valuable player in the NBA, thus far in their careers

Basically restating everything I have already said:

Tim Duncan has the best fundamentals in the NBA, any player in the league, and not just among big men. Fundamentals used to be basketball's bible, but today, it's rare to hear a player described as fundamentally sound. Today, the NBA is filled up with guys who are athletically gifted, and can jump out of the building to throw a nasty dunk down. But basketball, especially in the NBA, is where individuals have to mesh within a team game, and I think this is really where Duncan shines. Duncan has a mental edge over Garnett in: Post Offense IQ and moves, Shot selection IQ, Offensive Awareness, Low Block and D-Post IQ, Help defense, and of course his amazing defensive awareness. Garnett in the fundamentals category is just slightly above the par, and it really shows when he get's into the playoffs.

NBA Value shouldn't and isn't who would win 1on1 streetball, it's the player who makes his team win

Although Duncan seems to be barely above average in the: strength, speed, leaping, and quickness departments, Duncan seems to have a natural gasp on how the game should be played, a mental edge over everyone else on the court. Garnett does not do this often enough, and can be seen fading away in clutch situations when there are clearly better options for a higher percentage, he will shoot the low% fade-away. While Tim Duncan seems to always make the right decision in the clutch, I mean, no matter if they win or lose, Duncan is the guy that seems to rarely be at fault at the end of a close game. In the clutch: he rarely forces bad shots, can easily split double teams and find a team mate wide open, and on defense, he is the best at help defense to stop any penetration in the lane, and especially at the end of the game when it matters most, he is at the top of the league.

Tim Duncan makes his team mates better.
This is something that Garnet seems to lack severely, the natural ability to make his team mates better. Tim Duncan has made all stars out of role players. For example, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, in my strong opinion of course, are nothing but good role players without Duncan.
Take Tony Parker, he is an average point guard, who has a really below average shot, and his only gift is being slightly quicker than most defenders. But when he has a Duncan on the court, it seems like he can get lay ups at will. This can be attributed to the excellent mindset of Tim Duncan. Unfortunately for Garnett, there are no guys that come out like this that can be attributed to him, at least yet in his career.

Tim Duncan is better
Tim Duncan has shown he has success in his career, unlike Garnet. Duncan has 3 rings, 2 MVPs, and 3 Final’s MVP. Meanwhile Garnet has 7 first round playoff exits, and twice missing the playoffs in his first 10 seasons while never getting to the finals.

Duncan is the better player, he makes his team win, and that is what is important in the NBA, not just the stats, not just the numbers.