Posted
by
timothy
on Tuesday October 22, 2013 @12:16PM
from the let's-at-least-have-open-range-for-cars-fellas dept.

cartechboy writes "Texas is known for having the nation's most draconian anti-Tesla rules, based on intense and cash-rich lobbying and political donations by Texas car dealers. What's amazing is what would-be Tesla owners still have to do to get their hands on--and maintain--a Tesla Model S. How do you buy a car the laws try to stop you from owning? By jumping through wacky hoops, it turns out. Tesla store staff, for example, can't tell visitors how much a Model S costs. They can't give test drives, and they can't discuss financing options. Tesla service centers are banned from showing the company logo — or advertising that they do Tesla warranty work or service at all. So how have 1,000 Model S cars been sold? That would be sheer persistence."

I'd love to see the Tesla sales numbers from Austin vs the rest of the state. Austin residents have long been at odds w/the rest of the state and their politics and as such I have a feeling we'd see a pretty high correlation with Austin vs Tesla ownership when compared w/the rest of the state.

"I'd love to see the Tesla sales numbers from big cities vs the rest of the state."

Fixed.

In all those itty bitty northeastern states, where you can spit from one state to another, having charging stations plentiful enough is easy. But in Texas, once you get out of the big cities, even for gas you need to at least think a bit ahead.

the GOP in Texas is a criminal organization like the mafia....Tesla wouldn't pay the 'protection' fee...

any equivocation belies ignorance...if you are a "libertarian" you must criticize this and oppose the Republicans who did it

from TFA:

The current iron-clad Texas franchise law is the result of years of lobbying by the powerful and well-connected Texas Auto Dealers Association (TADA), founded and run for 30 years by legendary Texas lobbyist Gene Fondren.

In 2012, dealership interests "invested" more than $2.5 million in the Texas legislative elections, according to the the watchdog group Texans For Public Justice. Sixty percent of Texas lawmakers received checks from TADA in 2012.Two elderly billionaire car dealers, Tom Friedkin and Red McCombs--the latter is also chairman of the former Blackwater security firm--kicked in more than a million dollars between them.

Pretty much, though the balance between 'more freedom for the powerful to exercise their freedom on others' and 'protect the weak from the powerfull's freedom' varies from state to state. For better or worse, a big part of Texas's ethics revolve around the idea that the best way for people to accumulate wealth is to not protect them, thus encouraging them to get stronger. Thus anyone who does not get one of those coveted higher slots are simply personal failures, which reenforces the idea of the rights of

What is amazing is the people who love regulation so much just hate this. You know, the ones who want everybody to be forced to drive an electric skateboard, or have no choice besides a bus or a bile. This is what giving regulatory power to your government brings you.

Well, I'm sure your choice would be the bile, from the tone of your post.

Seriously, who wants regulation for its own sake? There's usually some other goal in mind, and regulations are seen as a means for achieving it.

(Also, buses are okay for feeder routes, and if you have to have any sort of automobile, an electric is often going to be the best option. But electrified rail is the best motorized transportation out there AFAIK)

Bad example. If you're thinking of the New York City soft drink size limit, that would have applied to soft drinks with caloric sweeteners, not diet soft drinks. All that would have meant is that restaurants would start carrying a larger selection of diet sodas, not just the diet version of the cola. I miss fountain Diet Mtn Dew.

Bad example. If you're thinking of the New York City soft drink size limit, that would have applied to soft drinks with caloric sweeteners, not diet soft drinks.

Indeed; if OP really wanted to point out an example of how New York State can be just as draconian and anti-freedom as the Texas example above, he'd have been better off to cite the 4 NY Senators [thetechherald.com] who, back in 2011, insisted that the First Amendment be relegated from a right to a privilege.

It has that effect though. Unless a person has the resources to defend themselves, laws are what law enforcement says they are. Try to cite Bill of Rights protections to law enforcement and they either assume you're a nut or part of a militia.

Even if defendants ultimately prevail, the damage has been done and a chilling effect is almost always created.

AC specified that a Democratic state banned large sodas, appearing to have made an attempt at a tu quoque argument [wikipedia.org]. The only such ban that I'm aware of is the New York proposal, and Wikipedia's article about this ban cites sources stating that this proposal would not have applied to diet sodas. Thus the argument is weak even as a tu quoque. If you're aware of another example of a ban on large sodas in another Democratic state, I'm willing to discuss it.

Lets not engage in false equivalency just to avoid pissing anyone off. There are real differences between red states and blue states in terms of personal freedoms. Liquor laws for example are a hallmark of those fucking bible-thumpers. That has affected me a lot more than restrictions on buying an electric car. Perhaps you're talking specifically about owning a gun? I dunno, seems like you can buy a gun in any blue state, but there are fucking dry counties in Texas where you cannot buy alchohol at all.

You can't even say red states allow more flexibility for companies and "economic freedom." (Points to current article.)

If you're uncomfortable with how close that sounds to (gasp) taking a political position, you can give yourself the following out: it's not political or ideological differences so much as it is culture. This isn't a conservative/liberal difference. This is morons allowing their government to be run by the highest bidder, and maybe a little bit of misplaced hate at environmentalism (electric cars and all). Conservatives should be angry at government meddling here, it's clearly the exact opposite of free market economics. Texas here isn't being conservative, Texas is being dumb, ignorant, and lazy.

Anyway, the point isn't to say "Ha ha, blue states are better than red." Or shouldn't be. The point should be to highlight stupidity in government no matter where it happens. And I'd argue that there's a lot more egregious stupidity in Texas than in some blue states. Perhaps I'm still just pissed off at the dry county thing where I was stuck for New Years that one time. Fuck you, Texas.

Only because of the courts... NY, D.C., and others, basically outlawed guns, until the courts overturned the rules.

I'm a registered Democrat, who has never owned or fired a gun, yet I'm disgusted at the faith-based gun control laws being advocated, despite all evidence EVER, showing they only have the opposite effects. And worse, exploiting dead children to push for gun control laws that undeniably wouldn't have saved any of those children. Universal background checks are a great idea, but all other gun control laws currently suggested are pure idiocy.

Oh and Australia has a much more populated Indonesia next door (on the global map it is almost touching) as the Mexican equivalent

There's a slight problem: there's a big body of water separating the two. You can't exactly walk between Indonesia and Australia (and it's too far to swim while carrying a bunch of contraband on your back). Yes, you can use boats, but the Australian Navy is very active in patrolling their EEZ waters, largely to discourage illegal fishers (usually from other neighboring countrie

This is no big issue. Simply make owning a firearm a criminal offence, using one in a crime a massive offence, and they won't be used anywhere near as much. Then have the police remove all the guns they come across, and the number of guns decreases massively. When a criminal doesn't feel the need to have a gun in order to commit a crime (as their opponents won't be armed), they no longer use them. Crime will still exist, but far fewer people will die. Of course this won't work in the face of the US's b

There are no "Conservatives" any more who matter. There exist religious fanatics and pimps for big business, and between the two there is plenty of overlap.

It's time to stop regarding "Conservatism" as having any sort of positive contribution to the US beyond the preservation of the Second Amendment, and if Democrats would embrace that Amendment they'd gain massively in the polls. The Cold War is over, the US and China won, and the US has no effective enemies left. "Defense" now only means "perpetual globalist wars" but the Democrats are down with those too so not even the globalists need "Conservatives" as they own both Parties.

and if Democrats would embrace that Amendment they'd gain massively in the polls.

The NRA, being the most effecitve lobby in the US, DOES actually push a good number of democrats to be pro second amendment. Doesn't help their national image.

I think there are still real conservatives out there, they're just massively out-spent by the unholy alliance you mentioned, the Norquist tea party group. Small government conservatism isn't extinct. Deport the tea party and jail the lobbyists pushing to cut taxes to the breaking point (without cutting spending), and republican can become a pa

Agreed. I tend conservative myself, as in "don't tthrow the baby out with the bathwater", and I think this particular law needs to be reviewed. I would want to hear arguments pro and con before saying it should definitely be repealed , but it looks suspiciously like a bad law.

Ps - look up Draco, who Draconian refers to.That's a lot like calling Obama "Hitler".Obama is more like Elmo than he is Hitler, and that law, while it may be bad, is in no way Draconian.

They voted down the bills submitted by the house because they had their crazy teabagger anti healthcare bullshit lumped into them. They wouldn't pass a clean bill so the senate shut them down. They still didn't pass a clean bill, just one with the right perks to make everyone happy.

To cite a Fox News site as you hurl the acusation that the other party is ignorant and needs to be educated implies you are the one with deficiencies that will not be remedied by any call to reason or logic. Only a true true believer can give Fox News as a source that delivers unvarished truth. Thus, cease with the name calling unless and until you are willing tol stand behind your words with a real identity, even then do not expect rapture to follow.

This is all about the strength of the car dealer lobby in Texas, and the politicians who have interests in them, that's all. After oil, car (and truck) dealers are the #2 industry there. That's an overstatement, but pretty darn near up there. That's all that's going on there, its not about "freedom" or any other political catchphrase.

(And I hate to break it to you, but it's Senate Democrats who voted down the budget for two weeks.)

You're either an idiot or an asshole. Or both. So let me explain based on the assumption you're simply ignorant. Here's how politics works:

1. Submit a bill titled "The most wonderful bill in the history of mankind which everybody loves excepts evil fucking bastards."2. Add something in this bill which says that everybody must abduct, kill, and eat 1 dozen babies per week.3. Watch opponents vote against bill because it is sick and wrong.4. Proceed to loudly proclaim that your opponent just voted against the most wonderful bill in the history of mankind and thus has proven himself to be an evil fucking bastard.

Rinse and repeat. They all do it. You can claim Senate Democrats "voted down the budget" which is not even close to the whole story. Or you can say that House GOP pushed a pile of pigshit up to the Senate. Most revealing is how you use the phrase "THE budget". There is no budget until it's voted into law, what was sent was A proposed budget.

Quit getting your information from the bullshit on TV, it's mostly a bunch of partisan crap. Go read the actual bill, look at the riders attached to it. Often a bill which looks great up front contains a whole bunch of really stupid bullshit. Ask your elected rep why he/she voted for/against a bill, don't just take the title and start screaming "OMG Senator DickWiggle just voted against the Save the Children bill, so he must be in favor of murdering the children!"

But they don't want to sell it the same way as everyone else! Why should there be a middleman franchise dealer in the mix?And they ARE trying to change the laws to allow sales, it's just that they're not paying out the bribes to the lawmakers in the same way that the Texas auto dealer association is doing.

The car's "status symbol" status will be better for sales than if it weren't a status symbol, but I think that the difficulty in acquiring and maintaining one more than balances that out. I'm positive that they'd have stronger sales if buying one weren't such a pain in the ass.

ya. It is really cute when the article flat out states that things wont change for Tesla until they buy more politicians. Sensibility, reasonableness, will of the people... all of these and more get left out in the cold until you pony up the big bucks.

Absolutely. Adam Smith was adamant about the necessity of regulating business and preventing collusion among businessmen, but you'd never know it from the fulminations of the Libertardians. They pick and choose those sections of his work that they approve of and pretend the rest doesn't exist, rather like Christians who ignore Leviticus.

What gives Texas the authority to prevent any manufacturer -- of cars or otherwise -- from selling their products in the state? Couldn't this be construed as an illegal restraint of trade against the State of California?

What gives Texas the authority to prevent any manufacturer -- of cars or otherwise -- from selling their products in the state? Couldn't this be construed as an illegal restraint of trade against the State of California?

That... doesn't seem right.

By the same logic, California has an illegal restraint of trade against any state that manufactures certain firearms and firearm accessories, and most states would have an illegal restraint of trade against Colorado by not allowing CO pot growers to sell there.

I live about 2-3 miles from the Tesla service depot in Austin. One thing that seems to sell the vehicles is the fact that they are "so good, they had to be banned." Even with all the hoops one has to jump through, if one wants a runabout vehicle, a Tesla is hard to beat (assuming one can afford the ticket to entry.)

So, the prohibition on Tesla vehicles in Texas just makes people seem to want them more. Especially with the fact that in Austin, charging stations are popping up in odd but useful places, such as credit union parking lots.

As the owner of a Leaf, with a ~90 mile range (my range is about 90 anyway, YMWV), I can say that a Tesla is a bit more than a "runabout vehicle." We thought we'd have to make SERIOUS adjustments driving a Leaf in the far suburbs of Phoenix (we're 3+ miles to a gas station, and 10 miles from the nearest Freeway), but a few MINOR tweaks and we're golden -- and that's on half of the Tesla's range.

Yes, Texas is a big state, and it's not suitable for driving 100+ miles one way and then driving back unless you

The nice thing with the charging stations is usually I just avoid them with my model S. It's cheaper to charge at home. For driving around the Bay Area it's been great. I've used a few of the supercharger stations which have also been great. My only complaint is that they need more of them in more places. There aren't any heading north from the Bay Area and they need them in some more out of the way places like on the way to Yosemite or near Big Sur. The public charging stations are not all that useful when

So how have 1,000 Model S cars been sold? That would be sheer persistence.

Can I buy one just to drive it through the doors of their capitol and park it on top of the assholes who passed all these laws while screaming "ASSHOLES ARE BIGGER IN TEXAS TOO!" I know I'd probably be riddled full of bullets and called a terrorist, but for those 30 glorious seconds, I think I would be a working class hero.:(

In other news; We should start putting warning labels on everything that comes from Texas, including the people: "Warning: This product is known to cause stupidity in every other state but Texas." (with a tip of the hat to another state, whose stupidity created similarily named labels). And now, moderators who live in those two states... fire up the 'overrated' and 'troll' buttons, and I apologize I kept you waiting so long.:P

Yeah, really, what's with people these days? Can't even murder civilians for political purposes without getting labeled a terrorist.

Once again, my sarcasm has become so advanced that it stupifies people. First, you could never get a car through the door. I know Texas lawmakers are pretty fat, but even at that, a car is still wider by a small margin. Second, and I only half-joke on this... politicans aren't civilians. While I don't advocate violence, killing politicians or agents of the government doesn't meet the actual definition of terrorism (not the current political definition which is basically "anything we disagree with"): They ar

Dealerships are "arms-length" from the car maker (in theory). This prevents them from price fixing and encourages competition (in theory). Tesla wants to run these themselves rather than put a 3rd party in the middle. I've been to a Tesla store and it was amazing, stupid protectionist laws.

Their business model is sell direct to the customer. I suppose they could set up a "dealership" model where the salescritters are Tesla employees and the dealership marks the price up $1, but then the Texas Dealership Association (or whatever its called) would probably make membership in their club mandatory, or set a minimum limit for markup, or some other obstruction. Essentially a small group of dealers own all the dealerships in the state, they don't want anyone trespassing on 'their' territory.

Because Texas law states that auto dealerships must be independently owned and operated from the auto manufacturer-- (a dealer franchise just has an agreement to sell a particular car... but they still have no ties to the manufacturer.)

Yes and no. The dealerships have effectively enacted laws that exclude all competition. So yes, Tesla doesn't want to follow the laws, but the laws forbid them from selling direct to consumers. It is essentially a cartel that has been legalized. There are all sorts of industries that have been protected this way in Texas. For example, until recently, breweries had to choose between direct selling to consumers or through distributors but not both. These laws were designed to protect large national brew

I like Texas, but they have some of the worst legislature and blue laws in the nation. Two taht come to mind frmo my days living in San Antonio:

Burger King came into San Antonio back in the early 80's, but there was already a burger chain in San Antonio called Whopper Burger which was locally owned. During the ensuing 2 year legal battle by BK, they had stores but they had no signs. It looked like a BK, but it couldn't say Burger King anywhere because the local chains big burger was called the King Whopper. You'd go to the unmarked BK drive through and order a Whopper and they would say "sir, we don't have them, we call them a Deluxe"! THey even had to wrap it in clear plactic because the BK wrapper had Whopper or Bruger or King onit! Talk about stupid. BK finally won and bought out the other chain.

Then there were the blue laws, where you could go to the store on Sunday but not buy certain things. You could by a hammer at Home Depot, but you couldn't buy the nails on Sunday. Batteries! You could buy a battery opreated device, but not the batteries, on Sunday. My car died and I needed to buy a new battery but could not becasue it was sunday, I hade to jump start or leave it running until midnight, then go to the 24 autoparts place and get one at 12:01 in th morning! You could buy baby formula, but not diapers. Insane! The would even rope of the sections in the stores with hanners that read "never on a Sunday". I once picked up a small package of nails at a 7=11 and the cleark told me taht he could sell them to me and if I persitied he would have to call the cops, but you could buy beer!

Then there were the blue laws, where you could go to the store on Sunday but not buy certain things.

Some of those laws are gone, but some of them are still around. Grocery stores can't sell liquor, and they can't sell any alcohol before noon on Sunday. That really confused a friend of mine the first time he needed to get some cooking sherry on a Sunday morning.

Remember, the Republican party is pro-business! Unless your business is doing something they find morally objectionable.

I love how political extremists on the right run around screaming "LEAVE BUSINESSES ALONE!", and then proceed to pass laws that discriminate against specific businesses; albeit ones that aren't chummy enough with the right people.

Dealerships are car retailers, they purchase the car form the manufacturer and resell to you. Tesla is eliminating the middleman and operating it's own stores, so purchasing a Tesla is always direct from the manufacturer purchase.

That's a company store. A dealership is an "independent" third party that also takes a cut of the sale. I don't know how they rationalize requiring car manufacturers to sell through a dealer. If it continues to happen, it will become a big election issue because the model S is one of the most highly reviewed cars and they're trying to stop Texans from buying them.

They can't inhibit speech protected by the first amendment, however they CAN legislate trade and commerce. For example, we already have laws that prohibit false advertising without first amendment issues. If the companies display the logo, they will be fined under the law.

Oh ans sir, I almost forgot, but it might interest you to know that someone may have neglected to remove the keys from the ignition of that car over there, and it is our policy not to press charges for people who, should they steal it, return it in a timely manner...

Are you talking about the actual article where the founder of Blackwater spent over a million dollars 'lobbying" the Texas legislature to prevent a free market for car buyers in Texas?
Seems to me it doesn't matter who the person is that lobbied, they AND the Texas legislature have removed a basic part of the free market in order to protect a segment of rich businessmen. Same old same old. Republicans say they are against big government but they act otherwise.
I think there are ignorant people screaming on