The Arab Spring is now nothing less then a murky spring and a polluted well.
The British and American people ought to thank Russia and China for the Veto in the Security Council of the U.N. Whatever their motives it turned out to be good for the the U.S. and England, that has saved them the billion dollar expense of bombing Syria.
Consider Russia and China being America and England's proxies to excise the Veto. It would have be bad if England and U.S. vetod the resolution. You can be sure that if the U.S. and England began bombing Syria, thousands will be killed and the damage terrible.
The Muslims would forget that the Christians removed President Assad and it won't be long before Christians, Alawite Muslims, Druze etc would be massacred in the thousands.
The gratitude from Afghanistan for driving out the Soviets, was the 911 attack on America. About 5,000 Americans have been killed, in Afghanistan,thousands more injured, and things are still the same; Women have no freedom. They are afraid of what will happen when the NATO leaves. Libya is a complete mess today according to latest reports.
Be sure, and let it sink into our heads, that if Assad goes, another Dictator will take his place. That is the only way people in the Middle East can be ruled. Dictators bring stability to Muslim nations, be they Musharaf, King Abdullah, Gadaffi etc. Dictators are the natural fit for religious culture of Muslims.

According to Putinic forces, the West has been instigating Chaos and conflicts everywhere for their benefits. Hence, the so-called Democratic forces in the West are rightly outraged by any regime's response by killing to remain in power.
Now the West did not get the license to pulverise the civilians under the regime control as seen in Libya so that they would accept the Salafi bros in time. These bros once holding the upper hand, will slaughter thousands of civilians who are regime supporters like in Sirte. On top of it, the bros have made no bones to drive out the minorities like Copts, Alawites, Shiites, Kurds, Assyrians, other Levant christians etc. from the land using terror.

The cost of bombing is one but more importantly is the killing of the civilians. The western countries have no idea how a bom can kill people. They think that when the western media does not report any people killed, then it means than no one is killed. However, if they dropped one bomb in Paris and another in London and then count the number of people killed and wounded, they would know that even smart bombs do kill people. In the case of Libya, 40,000 people were killed and billions of dollars of property was damaged; yet they refuse to believe it because there is no "reliable source" (meaning western source) has reported it. In their naiveté and stupidity, they do not realise that a murder will not tell the number of people he has killed. On the other hand, "western sources" (and the western people will cite a long string of them)always assert the number of people non-western countries have killed and these figures, according to the naive western people, are "solid evidence".

Gheddafi was no enlightened despot. And at least Mubarak is no longer looting Egypt.

Russia and China have resolved nothing. I am sure the Alawites are a very capable people - but the idea that they can refuse to even share power in future months is absurd. There have been too many deaths in the country by now.

I wonder if we are missing the point here. Recent uprisings in the Middle East are home grown and the result of cronyism, corruption, oppression, et al. So the conflict is afoot. Now the UN Security Council's mandate is to preserve peace and stability, not to over throw governments or to allow governments to engage in massive war crimes either, unless the ends justify the means (Libya comes to mind). No one wants to have to revert to armed conflict and chances are we would not have to, if China and Russia sealed off the exits for the bad actors (Syria, Iran, and North Korea). A unified front and solid sanctions would go a long way in starving out these tyrants. But instead, intransigence will embolden these ruling elites who relish living outside international norms, then in order to keep these lunatics in check, the world has only armed conflict left in its toolbox. So in effect, we can argue that inaction leads not to peace but to war. This scenario has played out time and again throughout our history.

What China, Russia, and other well meaning but delusional "live and let live" isolationists can't seem to fathom, is appeasement and hoping humans will somehow just stop abusing each other, does not work. Look at our history. Every time we have left a tyrant to his own devices, he has killed his own people, which according to some is ok, but eventually he screwed with people's outside his borders, thereby leading to war...every time! Syria is messing with Lebanon, Iran is messing with Israel and Iraq and the Sunni world, North Korea is messing with South Korea. Which by the way are all legitimate reasons to "push back" militarily, but the West has chosen low intensity containment, look at what that has gotten them. Interestingly, if China or Russia where being harassed by Hezbollah, or had elected officials killed by Syrian Intelligence Agents, or had boats sunk by North Korea, would they take their problems to the UN to kill with endless speeches? How much restraint would they show? Either way, representative governments that respect the will of their populations, that promote free will and human rights are on the right side of history. Free peoples of the World will ultimately decide their future, not the dictators who are on the run. A messy but necessary, and inevitable process (call it human evolution if you will).

As for recent changes and conflict in the Middle East and Afghanistan, the mission was to halt tyranny and denude Al Qaeda, not to plant secular Democracies in the Stone Age, and on that front, job well done! The lunatic fringe brought the ideological struggle to the US doorstep, the US pushed back and her shores are now safer, but if the US turns its back (disengages entirely) for just a moment...It is too early to tell what the long range and unintended consequences of US/NATO/UN actions will be, but these people's now have a chance to choose a more constructive future, which in all likelihood they will squander (no malice, just ignorance). The modern world will be involved in minimizing the excesses of the ancient world in perpetuity. The cost of doing business. And with the gap between the modern and ancient world growing exponentially, expect that cost to increase.

News Flash, its pretty common knowledge that bombs kill indiscriminately. But at least in the West they are now more accurate than car bombs.

But anyway, what is your point? War sucks don't start one, allow dictators to kill their own people at their own pace (and do so more intimately, maybe in front of some family members), don't be a tyrant in the first place?

40,000, I heard millions (I'll site my source if you do yours), and think of all the sand murdered and tortured and trampled upon...

Happy do you hear "Putinic" voices in your sleep? Sounds like a reliable source. Why would the Middle East need help "instigating Chaos and conflicts"? You have already described how once the Libyan nut job was removed the new Sheriff is gonna go "tribal" on the remaining sects, sounds like they don't need the West's help?

Whether Russia is protecting or not its last naval base is not the matter. The matter is to prevent the NATO countries from murdering tens of thousands of Syrians and destroying billion of dollars of Syrian property like they did in Libya.

The NATO countries care even less at the fate of the Syrians as they did not care about the fate of the Libyans. They will lie to the world yet are prepared to bomb and kill thousands of Syrians as they had killed 40,000 Libyans with their bombs. What was the UN resolution with regards to Libya? It was a "No-Fly Zone Resolution". And what happened to that "No-Fly Zone Resolution"? Well, it was turned to a "Bombing Zone Resolution" by the NATO countries.

Any - literally, any event may have at least two interpretations, naive and cynic. I am pretty much sure you are correct in underlining Russian motivation for securing naval base and trade channel. From that I conclude that your personal perception tends to be rather cynic than naive - perfectly fine. Being correct does not necessarily mean being complete in assessment. Having that said:

(1) what makes you so confident to insisting that military and commercial interests are the only drivers for decision? I think that if required Russia could trade these two factors with NATO in return for, say, exploiting oil fields in previously ruined Iraq or just ruined Libya or any other win-win deal... Why not to credit Russian diplomacy with at least some respect towards humanitarian values, apart from pragmatic?

(2) within your perception, how would you depict the underlying motivation of NATO countries? As long as you see the pragmatic aspects of the things, I guess you'd not be claiming that "idealistic Western countries fight hard to assure human rights are not violated in Syria, overcoming resistance from evil and pragmatic China and Russia"?

When you fly in a "no fly" zone you get bombed. The mandate was to protect civilians, so when a tank is getting ready to shoot civilians it gets bombed.

I know this will not agree with your fabricated view of the world, but According to the Libyan Health office, the airstrikes killed 1,108 civilians. Not good, but considering Qaddafi was using civilians as human shields, it could have been a lot worse.

So far Assad has killed 5,000 more than NATO in Libya. But your not keeping score are you.

You write with a Slavic accent, perhaps you can share your perspective on Russia's motives, or at least characterize them. I for one would not call their position pragmatic, but emotional. How can supporting a tiny pariah state at the expense of relations with the greater world be viewed as pragmatic? Is it theater, showing a semblance of support for an ally before bandaging the hole in their foot and moving on? As you mentioned, using their position for purposes of gaining leverage? Demonstrating independence, consequences be damned?

Given Russia's agrarian roots, harsh climate, and brutal governments, I can see how people there, and by extension their government, are strong, self reliant, and proud. I can see how they must look at the rich West's infatuation with freedom and the value of a human life with some humor. These are luxuries. Russia is a world of survival. I also see Putin's attempts to repair Russia's wounded pride after her brief and brutal role on the world stage post WWII. Watching the empire collapse, having their grand experiment in Communism fail. From this background then I can see where possibly, in addition to the realpolitik concerns, the psychology is such that the suppression of a revolt and the loss of life is viewed with less sensitivity than their western brethren? The act of losing influence and being on the wrong side of history, again, is a bitter pill to swallow? And perhaps these emotional tangents have moved their hand more so than cold logic?

Jean Michel - you are so serious - and so ridiculous. Please tell us your references about 40,000 people killed and the billions of dollars of Libyan property. Please tell us then why the majority of the Libyan people doesn't fight against NATO and also why the majority of the Arab nations were in favor and even some part of of.

The 137 countries who have voted for the Egyptian resolution at the UN - these 137 countries represent the great majority of not only the West but African, South American, Asian, Arab countries - will impose their view about the Syrian crisis. The Russians and the Chinese will have nothing to oppose to that. And you will probably see that in the weeks to come the Chinese who need and want to have good relations with the majority of Arab countries will come close to them - and you will also see that the Russians will be put out of the Middle East - of Syria surely - where they will have almost no influence at all.

It should not be Moscow rules but rather Washington fails and gets the middle finger this time.France apart, Washington and London should be counted as a single vote. What if Brasil,India and Germany join the Security Council as permanent members? The Arab league now is a joke, no wonder if this "league" matures into an Arab Union- God forbid, will be the region and the world more peacefull and balanced!

Your logic escapes me or your dubious sense of humour.The little girl is UK - The world will be much more balanced and peacefull if the major countries I mentioned are SC permanent members.Otherwise the US cowboy won't ride roughshod over the world.

I can understand why Russia supports Syria, its in her national interest. But China? Come on. Its joke. Support Assad, is the equivalent of the foreign powers supporting the Manchu in their oppression of Han Chinese during the Qing Dynasty. Maybe the West should have arrested the likes of Sun Yat Sen. How many people actually support Xinhai Revolution, far fewer as % of the population than those who supported Syrian opposition.

The Middle East is being swept by a Sunni tide, resisting it is futile. You can BS about Wahhabbism etc. Sunni Arab countries forgave China's position on Libya, but in Syria.

Even if Assad holds on, his grip will be tenuous. Just for sticking a finger at the West and Sunni Arab states, what does China expect to achieve? So to accuse the West/Arab States of wanting to intervene, while Iran/Russia are sending troops (they are not advisor) and equipment, which is no better than what the West did in Libya.

I don't think the Chinese leaders care if 100,000 Syrians are killed, 100,000 Libya are killed by Russia/West. It might sound cynical, but that is how China does foreign policy most of the time. W. But for purely realpolitik purposes, its horrible decision. Iran is so isolated, even if China abstains, the Iranians would still sell Oil to China. But I think the Gulf State will remember this time next, unlike Libya.

China is riding on a freebie here. China would've abstained had Russia not vetoed. And the world knows this -- pointed out as your did that China has little interests in Syria.
China's using this this free opportunity to state its non-interventionist posture, at little cost to itself. Also it's a statement of unity with Russia, which has a shared longer term strategic interest with China in fending off Western interventionist tendencies.

"China's using this this free opportunity to state its non-interventionist posture, at little cost to itself. Also it's a statement of unity with Russia, which has a shared longer term strategic interest with China in fending off Western interventionist tendencies."

They are placing dubious "principle" over realpolitik. Even though China does not have alot of interest in Syria, the Sunni Arab states do. Most of the Oil in this world is controlled by Sunni Gulf States, not by Iran, and definitely not by Syria. The Chinese have to understand the Gulf States don't need money, they can't be bought off like other states in the world. But what they lack is security.

So rigt what you wrote.
I suppose that Chinese diplomacy in Syria now is to squeeze Russia. First step you look like to support and because of that Russia goes further in Bassar al Assad 's side. Second step you go away and you back the majority of Arab nations - leaving Russia alone with Bassar and Iranian. Third step - at the moment where Bassar is forced to go away - you are part of the deal with the Arab nations because you have proved that you could change position in their favor - keeping your line not to force - at first step - regime change. And more important you look like a player in Middle East game and you put out Russia - not only in Middle East but much more important for them in Central Asia. How? Very simple - China will become the only important player that Iran could have in his negotiation with the West.

China's interest is to be friend of Arab countries because they provide oil to China. They want to be part of the deal when Bassar will be put out - not for Syria itself - but for what will happen with Iran.

And of course the Chinese government is scared of what could happen in China - they live in this fear of a new Tian Amen 's movement which this time they will be unable to crush because of the openness of Chinese society toward the World.

They act - a very little bit - to show to their own citizens that they prefer peaceful negotiation than civil war.

Most of the time Foreign Policy of a state reflects his intern policy.

Same in Russia - Putin is afraid to end like Gadhafi.

I don't understand why he is scared because he will end in any case like Gadhafi. Then why to scared?

Congrats to Russai and China. You do not support UNO gang-banging Syria , which is a purely political move. President Assad is doing his job as any head of state confronting a rebellion.
YOu may hate Assad but you'd do the same were you in his shoes right now.
Homs is bandit land, under Muslim Brotherhood influence for many years. It was them who fomented a coup against Assad's father many years ago and were duly crushed.
The Economist seems to be aping the populist media unfortunately.
The so called "free syrian army" is just a gang of riff-raff opportunists, same as the lybian lliberation army whose fractions ar now fighting each other.

Only someone completely bankrupt of morality would think it is ok to murder innocent men, women and children simply because they express dissatisfaction with the ruling party. The people should have the right to do that; it's THEIR lives being affected after all.

Now water is under the bridge. Russia jointly with the Arab League using persuasion and threat of withdrawal of supports should ask or even force both Assad and Opposition groups to set up a time-table for free Election.

The self-acclaimed powers in the Middle East - Arab League, Russia (& US, Nato and UN) should play a constructive role to end the conflict by working towards an fair and free election. The latter three will probably be pranksters in the process.

>> Arab League, Russia (& US, Nato and UN) should play a constructive role to end the conflict
Putin is not going to play constrictive role, he needs to prove that shooting people works, otherwise he is in a big trouble

It is easy to label everyone that does not support the western alliance lead by the US, a war criminal.

This is a common thing, any leader defending the integrity of their country is seen by the West as a War criminal; hence the rubber-stamp Hague tribunal kicks in for prosecution.

Free your mind, think Hard. Since the Secondly world war ended, which country has killed more of the citizen of the world directly and indirectly through their military actions? Of course it's United States and its allies.

So you have a dictator in many countries, so why pick on just one or two; Why don't we just go after all of them. And I meant ALL of THEM, including the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Emirates, Quatar, come on, let's do it. The fact is that DOUBLE-Standards is always been the name of the game.

We let them kill their citizens just like in many of these countries, or just simply stop girls and women from driving or living a normal as in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the Hillary Clinton would not want to be a woman in Saudi Arabian Society. Then when we fall out with those leaders, we start calling them what they have always been (Dictators).
We then send in the Militia, the drones and our floating war machines to blow up the entire country to depose few people at the top; killing lots of innocent citizens like we did in Iraq.

Those who made decision to carry out these wars are NEVER prosecuted.
For those who did not know, or would rather bury their heads in the sand; In a truly civil society, murder is murder, regardless of who carried out the killing.

Unfortunately, in our beautiful world, things are much ugly for many because not enough people are standing up against killings made in the name spreading of democracy.

It is just about time to demand an answer before going to war - How many innocent people might get killed?

It is easy to label everyone that does not support the western alliance lead by the US, a war criminal.

This is a common thing, any leader defending the integrity of their country is seen by the West as a War criminal; hence the rubber-stamp Hague tribunal kicks in for prosecution.

Free your mind, think Hard. Since the Secondly world war ended, which country has killed more of the citizen of the world directly and indirectly through their military actions? Of course it's United States and its allies.

So you have a dictator in many countries, so why pick on just one or two; Why don't we just go after all of them. And I meant ALL of THEM, including the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Emirates, Quatar, come on, let's do it. The fact is that DOUBLE-Standards is always been the name of the game.

We let them kill their citizens just like in many of these countries, or just simply stop girls and women from driving or living a normal as in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the Hillary Clinton would not want to be a woman in Saudi Arabian Society. Then when we fall out with those leaders, we start calling them what they have always been (Dictators).
We then send in the Militia, the drones and our floating war machines to blow up the entire country to depose few people at the top; killing lots of innocent citizens like we did in Iraq.

Those who made decision to carry out these wars are NEVER prosecuted.
For those who did not know, or would rather bury their heads in the sand; In a truly civil society, murder is murder, regardless of who carried out the killing.

Unfortunately, in our beautiful world, things are much ugly for many because not enough people are standing up against killings made in the name spreading of democracy.

It is just about time to demand an answer before going to war - How many innocent people might get killed?

It is easy to label everyone that does not support the western alliance lead by the US, a war criminal.

This is a common thing, any leader defending the integrity of their country is seen by the West as a War criminal; hence the rubber-stamp Hague tribunal kicks in for prosecution.

Free your mind, think Hard. Since the Secondly world war ended, which country has killed more of the citizen of the world directly and indirectly through their military actions? Of course it's United States and its allies.

So you have a dictator in many countries, so why pick on just one or two; Why don't we just go after all of them. And I meant ALL of THEM, including the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Emirates, Quatar, come on, let's do it. The fact is that DOUBLE-Standards is always been the name of the game.

We let them kill their citizens just like in many of these countries, or just simply stop girls and women from driving or living a normal as in Saudi Arabia. I am quite sure the Hillary Clinton would not want to be a woman in Saudi Arabian Society. Then when we fall out with those leaders, we start calling them what they have always been (Dictators).
We then send in the Militia, the drones and our floating war machines to blow up the entire country to depose few people at the top; killing lots of innocent citizens like we did in Iraq.

Those who made decision to carry out these wars are NEVER prosecuted.
For those who did not know, or would rather bury their heads in the sand; In a truly civil society, murder is murder, regardless of who carried out the killing.

Unfortunately, in our beautiful world, things are much ugly for many because not enough people are standing up against killings made in the name spreading of democracy.

It is just about time to demand an answer before going to war - How many innocent people might get killed?

I share with you your pain over the innocent civilians been killed in the name of "democracy", I even clicked a recommend button,

But what you started with, that is wrong, thus invalidating all your comment,

Dictators do not protect the integrity of they nations, they protect they grip on power, they like to wage wars just to rally people on cheap patriotism feelings for fools, they like to go after minorities, it's an easy way to feed they numerous oprichniks and create controlled chaos to provide a reason for they existence. They destroy civil institutions and make the whole county dependent on one person.

So, do not portray dictators as a noble state builders surrounded by corrupt west, people from Grozny, Homs and Misrata would not agree with you.

Dmitry, you have a totally distorted view of dictators. There are corrupt and egoistic dictators, but there are also a lot of democratic politicians who will say anything to get elected and who think nothing of deceit or fueling hatred. And just as there are idealistic democratic leaders there are also idealistic dictators. In fact most people are a mix of the two.

Remember, it is not that long ago that the whole world was ruled by dictators (or kings as they were called then).

Something does not compute. The US consumer built China and the EU is Russian's biggest customer, yet they oppose them, and that is rational? I think this is more symptomatic of a Cold War hangover and penis envy. Time for Russia and China to grow up.

Go to any office or factory and you will see that most people try to do a decent job. And for their own taste they do - although their boss may have a different opinion. Dictators are the same. Even the North Korean dictators will be able to give you a long list of factories and roads they built and other successes. Our diplomats could achieve more if they addressed these instincts instead of their present black-white thinking.

You write about a "downward spiral of moral decay and corruption" when there is no accountability. That happens with some people - but not with all. And it happens in democracies too when people have been in power for a long time. Some become arrogant (see for example Merkel) while others think they can get away with anything (see Berlusconi).

And just as we can live with democratic leaders who show decay so people can live with dictatorial leaders. To paraphrase Deng: it doesn't matter if a dictator has a big house or small one as long as he delivers law and order and economic growth. For many countries is that the best they can wish for and democracy would improve noting on that.

>> And just as we can live with democratic leaders who show decay so people can live with dictatorial leaders
Live? What do you mean by leaving? People live in jails, live on the South Pole, people have been living in GULAG, people will live as slaves as long as they alive, people will survive no matter what!
>> You write about a "downward spiral of moral decay and corruption" when there is no accountability. That happens with some people - but not with all.
The point was it is normal, it is logical and it is the easiest path, you have to be of exceptional moral values and yet become a hostage of your entourage and establishment, thus it happens with all but few exceptions, they'll all get rotten!
>> Even the North Korean dictators will be able to give you a long list of factories and roads they built and other successes.
There is not much to show in N. Korean, maybe some Potemkin's villages, even so, it's not a dictator who builds the villages but people!

The Russians have a veto for a reason. Thatv reason goes back to 1945 at the treaty of Yalta. They can vote as they please (and overide other votes). It is easy to forget but remember, it took UN resolutions from 1962 to condemn aparteid. Lest I forget, the then Prime Minister of Britain, Margeret Thatcher actively supported the policy of segregation. This modern day born-againism (apolgogies to Pentescotal Christians) smacks of hypocrisy. One principle in fair hearingis "audi ulterem partes". Hear the other side. The West is clamoring for regime change in Syria...fine. What's the alternative?

The West and Wahhabi have 2 very different agenda for Arab world and this will lead to more Chaos and disharmony for the future.

a) The West is not the exactly the savior of the Arab nation. In fact, all they want to keep the Arab as weak and divided as possible to control the Oil and safeguard Israeli interests.

b) The Wahhabi want to radicalize the Arab Sunni and from here, where it leads to nobody can know. Eventually it will lead to the Biggest Clash of Civilisations and/or Wars with the Shiites. The omnipotentates are riding the Wahhabi wave, just hoping not to be killed in order to keep their kingly privileges.

"The UN was founded to prevent the very thing that is happening in Syria right now..."

This is revisionism of the history on the same level as denying holocaust. The later, by the way, is a crime of holding an opinion in several western free countries. What’s entertaining on this board is often one comes across some buffoon acting like they have sooo much freedom that they just can’t resist the urge to gift some to the persecuted masses.

The main purpose of the UN setup is to serve the interests of a few Big powers. That is a constant. Developing countries will be either persuaded or coerced into compliance with the mainstream power broker.

Sultan Waltron Ibn Benjamin has returned from his undercover trip to Syria, where he was gathering important intel on the Syrian government crackdown and now wants to share his findings with the world. On his vacation in Syria, he must've stopped by Russia to check on Vlad I suppose.

I suppose you are right. Waltron, a Eurozone citizen (or so he claims to be one), tends to spend cold winter seasons some place warm, such as Middle Eastern region (Iran, Iraq, Lybia; although, for some reason he doesn't want to visit Israel)or, occasionally, sometimes he crashes premium tropical resorts on Alfa Centavra.

I think his latest assignment was in Lybia to help with the transition to "democracy".

It is quite funny to realize that , in your view, I look like "Aleksander Sergeyevich Griboyedov" , (1795-1829) - a Russian diplomat, playwright, poet and composer - writer of one famous book "Woe from Wit" ( published in 1833 after his death) written in the tradition of Beaumarchais (1732-1799) ( Le Marriage de Figaro) . He was Russia's ambassador - except that Beaumarchais succeeded brilliantly to help the US Revolution (1777) and Griboyedov failed in his diplomatic efforts in Tehran (1829) and was killed by an Iranian mob which grabbed his corpse through the streets and bazaars of the city with cries of victory celebrations.

Sorry , old Russian Chauvinist friend, dear Joey the Reader, my dear political enemy , but I prefer to be in the tradition of Beaumarchais because the reason Griboyedov failed are obvious: he represented a culture of slaves.

I have always loved Griboyedov - as a writer. I think for example the character of Famusov in "Woe from Wit" is still a great description of a Russian Chauvinist mind - lover of old abuses, hater of reforms, lover of dictators.

The funny thing is the fate of Griboyedov in Tehran in 1829 could happen to Lavrov in Syria one the weeks or months to come. But Lavrov has not exactly the same talent of Griboyedov.

I am waiting since decades that a Russian filmmaker like Nikita Mikhalkov directs a TV serie written by himself and Adabashian about the journey to death of Griboyedov from Saint Petersburg to Tehran. He will better to do that - he will do a masterpiece - instead to play the politician where he is bad.

Why it is so interesting to see how Putin acts - once more - so stupidly in Syria? Because the historical movements in the Middle East, in Central Asia will pull back the balance of powers in a way that it has been in the XVIIeth and XVIIIth century - meaning that Iran and China will take back their "natural" influence.

As soon as Iran is liberated from its present regime, the alliance with China and most probably Europe will be obvious to put out of Central Asia this mid size country Russia.

During the weeks and months to come, it will be so interesting to see how the Chinese will squeeze the Russians in Syria: they have started. The Chinese way to play is a Go game when the Russians know only Chess game.

Who are you Jean Michel? French? Tell us more about where do you come from? Or as the French said : "d' ou tu parles". Explain to us why you think what I wrote about Syria is nonsense. Explain also what is your background - I mean what are your references and eventually practice who makes you to feel that you know so much about Syria.

Of course the great Russian Chauvinist has much about to tell us about Russian "democracy". By the way if you want , you could always try to put back in power the son of Gadahfi - not the one who is in jail but the other one who is in Africa. I am sure that you will have the approval of the Libians.

Whackamole writes: "Expect more of the same and these countries may very well return to dictatorship for the sake of stability, being too sectarian and near sighted to succeed at Democracy, but that is their fate to decide." ----- So, you are saying that the West should leave Syria alone and let its people decide their fate?

Whenever a government turns its military on its own people, somehow, someway, if possible, they should be stopped. Tanks versus rocks is hardly a fair fight. Once the people are free'd of their dictator, then of course they should choose their next government (hopefully an institution over a person), having at least earned the right with their own blood. Like I've written to a couple folks: I too wrestle with the question, "Should the US/West be the World's police?" We can't simply sit by and watch massacre after massacre, but we don't necessarily have the means to intervene in every fight, nor should we. The UN was supposed to shoulder some of the load until Russia and China neutered it. The UN was founded to prevent the very thing that is happening in Syria right now, and to prevent another World War, among other humanitarian pursuits. For me, I believe with ability comes responsibility. Wealth and freedom are the rewards, sacrifice and effort are the responsibilities. If someone is employed by the Chinese to post, this is a wasted effort, if one is a well meaning isolationist, it doesn't work if everyone minds their own business until their door is kicked down, and then its too late. You see the world, rather the bonehead humans that occupy it, don't play nice and unless the more enlightened camp organizes to control our own excesses, we will be subjugated and robbed of our right to self determination, freedom, and ultimately our lives. Besides, its about basic human compassion and morality. How can it ever be wrong to help and protect others from tyranny?

While I agree that it's nasty business - turning the nation's army on its own people - I ask you to consider one fact.
One of the reasons the Russian Revolution succeeded - The Imperial army was commanded to shoot at protesters to protect the rule of the Tsar. But the problem was the soldiers knew they were training their guns on their own people and probably their own families. Which is why they chose not to follow orders and then sided with the protesters.
I'm sure if the protests against Assad are truly widespread, then it will reach that point - critical mass, if you will, when Assad's own soldiers would defect.
If the Syrian people truly want a change in the regime, I'm sure they are more than capable of bringing that about.
Toppling inconvenient governments (regardless of whether they are good/evil/corrupt/incompetent) sets a dangerous precedent.
So while the West may bemoan Russia and China's decision to veto - while also implying they did so because of ulterior motives/interests - it doesn't change the fact that they defended one of the most cherished freedoms granted to every country - ie. sovereignty.

Russian's revolution and what is happening in Syria have nothing in common. One was class warfare while the other is more tribal and religious in composition. The minority sect that runs Syria (Alawites, 13% of the population) comprises a bulk of the officer corps (and other organs of power). In their minds they are not gunning down fellow Syrians (Sunni 74% of the population), but animals of different tribal and religious affiliation. The ruling minority are fighting for survival.

Governments that violate international law (war crimes), who oppress and kill their populations, who don't play by the modern "rules of the road" are hardly an "inconvenience", they are a cancer, and like any cancer, must be removed, because we all know what happens to the host if we let cancer spread unchecked...

In a time when mankind's survival depends more and more on mutual understanding, cooperation, and coordination, continuing the process that started shortly after we left the cave, where we align in larger and larger social blocks (cave...village...nation...EU/NATO/UN/ASEAN, etc., etc), nations cannot be allowed to use the excuse of "sovereignty" to wage war on their own people, anymore than they can on their neighbors.

Children who break the rules must be sent to their rooms. The solution for the gangster states, dictators, tyrants, et al., is too respect the will of their people, even those pesky minorities, and no one gets hurt. Freedom loving nations, for the sake of the greater good, must intervene to enforce law and order*. This is where China and Russia fall short: Both lack the history and institutions centered on freedom and law (wonderful institutions set-up to protect and preserve the ruling elite). Ancient cultures yes, but some of the youngest "governments" on the globe. And both ruling elites have no concept of the "greater good". Hence their paradigm and disconnect to the "West".

Thank you and take care!

*Assuming those laws are just and derived from an independent judiciary and a representative government.

The racism of our beloved Russian Chauvinists, kuzmich, is astonishing. The Russian Chauvinism is a strange ideology - the ideology of the Russian slaves - because they pretend that Russian Federation is a multi ethnic state but their hate of muslims , of non Ethnic Russians is so high that it is difficult to believe that this Russian Federation is a nation or a community of different ethnics. The source of this hate is very well known and described - for example by Tolstoi - it is the feeling of a slave when he feels that there is below him somebody more slave than he is. It is pure racism.
I am an atheist, German citizen, part of my blood is jewish, from different European origins - I am a typical Western European. I consider that EU needs to have strategic alliance with Asian countries and first of them China and that we have only one enemy is the Russian Chauvinism. Christian religious - except the Russian Orthodox which is the religion for Ethnic Russian slave - and Islam and Atheism are part of the European civilization. I have no hate against any religion - they are as Nietzsche described to us the repressive parts of ourselves.

I don’t think in Arab countries many seek freedom in a sense it is understood in the West. They don’t have a clue of it. It’s better to leave these guys and let them do what they want to do. Interferences from the West usually lead to such events as 911 or riots in France. Already 85sharia courts operate in Britain. Feels like it’s going to be the other way round. It would be too late to establish Western style democracy in those nations since EU will be converted into Islam. Forget bikinis!

Agree but we were dragged in by our (US) nearsighted and unwavering support of Israel, and when the Stone Age came knocking on New York, D.C. and Pennsylvania on 911.

We are in the midst of an ideological war now. The scientific, modern, secular world of technology and elected governments, just beat the stupidity* of Catholicism/Communism, etc., into some semblance of irrelevance, now Islam rears its ignorant head. The religion grew in the vacuum left by inept, corrupt governments. This of course is the West's fault like everything else. We apparently put everyone in power, then told them to abuse their people and to steal all the money we have been sending them through AID and the purchase of raw materials for the last couple centuries.

The greatest threat to mankind is ignorance. Bullets will not solve this problem. My concern is, as some segments of our species are looking to explore other planets, the other is still beating their women for talking to another man. The gap is growing so vast that maybe our only effective strategy is one of containing the lunatic fringe with the occasional cruise missile. While at the same time redoubling our education efforts and supporting the transition to representative governments as these societies prove ready.

As for Muslim's living in secular societies, it is simply a matter of, again education, and enforcing the rule of law. That means separation of church and state, freedom of expression, religion, and speech. If Muslim's violate these laws, they must be held accountable and their prehistoric escapades made well known. 20 years ago the average man knew nothing of Islam, now the threat is clearly defined and the battle engaged. This ideology is no longer free to sneak up on the modern world.

I disagree with this article which by too far superficial. First Russia and China approved the intervention of NATO in Lybia : they knew all about it. It was no surprise at all for them how the so called "West" will act. BUT both they thought the "West" will fail and then they will be victorious in their "moral" defense of Kadafi. They have been unlucky: they lost. They appeared of what they are: dying dictatorship with no influence on the World Affairs - just losers with no principles - not even their own principles.

In the Syria case, and that it's very funny, we, the West, we learn how to manipulate these losers. First Putin and his allies are so primitive and stupid that they are the most easy part. They really believe that their way to think is "real" - meaning that their primitive cynicism is the way things worked. We let them to make a massive intervention - with their advisers , their arms - in the cool blood killing of Syrian civilians. They really dream that by their control of Bashar's army they will prevail - after all what Bashar has done is exactly what Putin did in Chechnya . In doing that they take part on the Iranian side. And the World public opinion is against us - among first of all the Arab Sunites . Even the Indians and the Brazilians and the South Africans could not support them. More Syrian people are dying, more they are losing. Until the UN Assembly will put them out showing how far they are isolated. But also all the leaders and the advisers of Bashar army - Bashar himself - will be either killed or put in front of an International Tribunal.
The bottom of their loser attitude is simple to understand: Putin knows that in few months time he will try to fight back his opposition at home. Most probably it will finish in a bloodshed. Probably in months or few years time he will finish as most of the dictators : he will be killed or at best for him in front of International Tribunal for War crimes, Crimes against Humanity.

The Chinese leaders are becoming in an hubris mood. They were no need to support Russia - they don't care of Syria at all. And the way they speak ( in China Daily, in Global Times) is so ridiculous: for example they are against "revolution", they like smooth changes ( like Tian Amen massacrer is for example a fine example of smooth and harmonious change). To be against the Revolution when you are a Communist state is quite difficult. To support a dictator who is killing with the help of how own army - with tanks and canons - his own citizens is really stupid when every Chinese citizen remembered what happens in June 1989 , when also the essence of their own dictatorship is based on Revolution.

Then why they did this stupid mistake - to get the World opinion against them? Simply because they are scared to death that one day or another it will happen to them, that the Chinese people will make a revolution to push them out of power - and this will be very brutal and most of these leaders or their heirs and families will be destroyed. They know it. They know it has a chance to happen in the decade to come or the next one - and they will be unable to manage it.

Like this stupid Putin, the Chinese government is trying to explain that they are for democracy. The simple fact that they say that is in pure contradiction of the concept of their power which is the Proletariat Dictatorship , but they don't dare to use it.

Imagine Mao using the concept of "democracy" to explain how the Chinese communists got the power! It will look like a joke.

They know also than after Assad it will be Putin and then after that it will them.

The only way that they imagine they could stop this Historical movement is to imagine that they could buy everybody and that Putin and his allies will do all they can - killing as much as Russian citizens is necessary - to keep their power.

They could eventually win time - but at the end they will lose - sooner will be the better - these losers are the scum of the Earth.

The US and its allies have freely bombed and killed 40,000 people in Libya. Russia and China do not wish the same murderous act tro occur in Syria in order to satisfy the greed of the arms manufacturers and sellers.

Did I understand you correctly? You seem to claim that China and Russia care about human lives; especially Arab ones. Many centuries' worth of empirical knowledge point to the opposite... Just out of sheer curiosity, is that your own opinion, or you were instructed to form that opinion?...

>> Russia and China do not wish the same murderous act tro occur in Syria in order to satisfy the greed of the arms manufacturers and sellers.
Wow, now it's clear what is you mission here, you obviously know about recent contract to deliver Russian jet to Syria, but write opposite statement,
Clear sign of payed propagandist

Let us do this slowly. The claim that China or Russia care about human lives is as laughable as the claim that the West cares about human lives. No country does; at least no country that is a major player in world politics. There are some small countries who can afford play the role of the moralists on the world stage. No major country can afford that luxury. You chose to interpret it differently - for reasons of your own...
Crusades. One does not have to be a professional historian to know that the lands that experienced what is commonly called the "crusades" were Christian for over six centuries before there was such a thing as "Islam" - and for millennia before that those lands were Jewish. It is rather disingenuous, and equally laughable, to claim that history started in those lands with Islam.
This blog is about Moscow's and Beijing's veto about a resolution dealing with current events in Syria. The reasons for that veto are debated here. I was pointing out that the claim that the veto came about for other reasons than the purported humanitarian ones some of the posters claim for reasons of their own. It is commendable that you wish to remedy your ignorance in history, but, I am afraid, I am unable to point you in the direction of any history books you might find acceptable, for I am merely the product of Western education and civilization, and am not familiar with history texts that I think you would not reject as "Western propaganda"... I never thought of accusing you of being either a Chinese or a Russian agent. But I did note that, you mentioned nothing about being impartial about Arab matters... Have a nice day and good luck to you.

haha... my good man. I'm not Arab. heck, I'm not even Muslim. I agree with you when you said no major world power cares about human lives. I just didn't think China and Russia had to be specifically accused of that.
I also asked because you mentioned empirical evidence - you said many centuries of empirical evidence prove the opposite. if you meant Russia + China's poor human rights record in general then I apologize. I misunderstood you and jumped the gun.

as for which religion holds the legitimate claim to the holy land - I couldn't be less bothered. If there is a god, she/he will not take kindly to innocents being murdered. period.
cheers. and apologies again for getting riled up. :)

Jean Michel, me again. That's right, your comment has been singled out AGAIN, for its sheer stupidity and lack of objective and clear thought. Your comment is neither factual, relevant, or constructive. It is merely another in a long series of bitter, small minded, double speak. Have a nice day!

You repeat and repeat the same thing "40,000 people etc'> Please quote your sources. Second you seem to forget that the Un resolution on Libya was not a "NATO" or "West" resolution but an Arab League resolution. Third you also seem to forget that the resolution was approved by all members and when Russia and China vote an abstention vote it means they were not against the "no fly zone resolution" and "Protection of civilians". Fourth you also fail to mention that normally you could never win a war from the air - it doesn't exist in History - you need to have ground forces. Then if Gadhafi fails - even if he has had a professional army - it is for the simple reason that he was weak in front of his own people whose the opponents have had - for the ground forces - only very few heavy weapons. Russia and China wanted by their abstention votes to show that NATO will fail. They lose their bets.

Egypt, Tunis, Libya now Syria. These are all dictatorships. How about Saudis? Or with this regime the West can still cope. What an ardent battle for democracy! Looks like in the West Trotsky has become popular again with his idea of permanent revolution. I wonder if anybody here in his sober mind believes that these Arab Spring revolutions will bring democracy into these countries. You’ll knock down old dictators and elevate new dictators even worse ones. Most of these Arab nations will go fundamentalist and say to the West “Slam bam, thank you ma'am”. NATO will bring its aircraft carries targeting like a good sniper at Bashar Assad however before it hits Assad many innocent civilians will be killed in the name of democracy.
However, the mess that is going on in the Mid East plays into the hands of Russia. Rates on hydrocarbons go up.

It is good that the US is intended to democratize the whole region in order to create a safer world for the West.
Under the Dictator cronies like Mubarak, there is a lot of idle youths out in the streets which is wasted dissipated energy. Under new Salafi regime now, there will be a lot of religious youths coming out of the madrassahes which can be harnessed into a storm to the West.

The US did not topple Egypt, Tunis, or Libya, their people did. Saudi Arabia's day is coming but for now they have the wealth to buy off their small population and those seeking freedom simply leave, for now. Relatively speaking, their people are hardly suffering. The process of learning to live without a dictatorship is always messy, and you are right it can go either way. You might recall the turmoil that ensued after the colonial powers withdrew. Expect more of the same and these countries may very well return to dictatorship for the sake of stability, being too sectarian and near sighted to succeed at Democracy, but that is their fate to decide. And when that dictatorship fails to respect the will of its people, it will again collapse either from within or without. Social maturation is a long journey, especially when a culture is dealing with thousands of years of tradition and culture that views change as a threat.

At the moment, I am very happy that you are going to land all those lucrative contracts with the Wahhabi regimes for your sweat. And I am also watching happily how long you can coddle your new found pals.

"Saudi Arabia's day is coming but for now they have the wealth to buy off their small population and those seeking freedom simply leave, for now. Relatively speaking, their people are hardly suffering."

lol. and people of Lybia were suffering more than Saudis. I am still to find one pro-western commentator that does not use double standards.

Are you proposing the West just take off and clean out every evil doer, every government that oppresses its people? Not practical, hence you have to pick your fights. Where is this world of black and white?

Fair enough. Personally if my neighbor is being abused and I can help him, I will. With ability comes responsibility. The crazy leaders of these countries have to be held accountable or you will have chaos. I admire your goal, but it is naive as long as man seeks to oppress his fellow man. Check back in on our planet in about 500 years.

"Personally if my neighbor is being abused and I can help him, I will. "
How good samaritan you are. Hat down.
Just that for the other three neighbors of yours, who are abusing their families, you will say nothing, or even you will drink and dine with them, and will keep telling them how nice abusers they are.
As long as they give you the oil you need.
But soon you will start needing a Russian gas...

Well, they are not "giving" me the oil, I'm buying it. Sending gazillions of dollars their way. Where's the love? Oh, your crooked regime stole it instead of building schools and roads they bought weapons and stuffed their Swiss bank accounts, well of course that is my fault too.

The Wahhabi aim to radicalize the Arab society by overthrowing all the nominally secular regime. The Wahhabi have tried terrorism tactics but this have elicited a backlash from the neocon in the West. Now the Grand scheme is falling into place not through terrorism but by co-opting the Western avarice and blind hatred for Shiite Iran. Yes, I think that the Saudi potentate eventually will be finished off but for now, they are useful to the Wahhabi.

In looking over some of these posters comments. It appears the Chinese Internet Water Army (http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27357/)is alive and well on the Economist blogs. How else can we explain such irrelevant and virulent anti-west and pro Chinese comments. Comical to read.

To the article. Motives are always difficult to ascribe, but one can see where these two governments, and especially China, that go to great lengths to "guide" their populations, must break out in a cold sweat when other countries people rebel against authoritarian rule. In this regard, at least on the sociological scale, China and Russia are kindred soles. A populace that is free to select their leaders and hold them accountable is an imminent threat to the ruling elites of these countries. That this coincides with economic ties is no coincidence. It was the shared authoritarian nature of these governments that facilitated their relationship to begin with. "Birds of a feather flock together". Hence Russia and China's coddling of Iran and North Korea as well.

The Internet Water Army (IWA) will avoid the topic altogether and point to the US coddling of the remaining middle east Kingdoms and Israel. What these nations have done/doing is wrong but it is a matter of degrees. With regards to Bahrain, the US made its position clear and the killing stopped. Israel is a democracy (no doubt with an over sized US lobby) and it does not oppress or kill its people. The deaths in Syria are reaching 6,000 and climbing daily. Libya would have had similar numbers if Qaddafi would have been allowed to continue to use tanks against unarmed civilians. It is right to be concerned about the aftermath of regime change in countries lacking the necessary institutions, for example Libya and Iraq, but is was their dictators own oppression that caused the regime collapse, and their own bigotry, intolerance, and power struggles that caused the post regime bloodshed.

For decades China and Russia have bemoaned a perceived lack of respect. Here again they have an opportunity to act like world statesmen and have again squandered the opportunity. As these countries populations continue to evolve, they will soon demand more than new cars, but freedom. Tick, tick, tick...

This is a sweeping condemnation of the various views expressed. Anyway I think that the CIA should pay and recruit a higher caliber internet water army as thankfully, its budget is probably vastly enhanced by its increased responsibilities like drone strikes, new assassination squads in Tehran etc..

"Fire with fire" they say. Car bombs - drones, assassinations - assassinations. But where this does not work is ignorance - ignorance. And I agree, wow I'm flabbergasted at the stupidity of many of the posts here, someone needs to educate folks or at least stand up for the truth (hence my pen name Whackamole, aka whack stupidity). I know it is not representative of the average reader of the Economist, and it seems so concerted, hence my belief propagandists are hard at work here. I do however find solace in the fact that no reasonable person of intellect will be swayed by the lunatic comments of the IWA.

Did I say that? I'm all for cutting off every dime of US aid to Israel. They abuse their power and thereby forfeit my tax dollars. I'm ok with them defending themselves, but not grabbing more and more land. This is a big issue the US must get a handle on. In the meantime Assad is killing his people, 6,000 so far. It should be the world's focus for the time being. Then we can return to other messes.

hi im from Cameroon(central Africa). i will like to say i welcome the veto by China and Russia, the only two countries in the world who are not scared or shy about using their veto or vote to stop the west hegemonic ambitions. We Africans are tired of the west hypocrisy. Come on men we have suffered enough(and are still being exploited) under the west, they have exploited us for centuries and this continues till today. If u visit Africa and my country precisely, u will know the western media is truly biased, most of the time they report false news and use some minority to generalised situations when it serves their interests. most of us the African youths are now more and more educated and have come to understand what goes on behind the scenes. my brothers dont only base ur judgements from what u see or listen on the BBC, CNN, FRANCE24 etc. also try and look for alternative sources of information. To prove what im saying, take for example my country(Cameroon), our president(MR. Paul Biya) has been in power for 30 years now, and recently won(by fraud of course) another 7 year term in office,after modifying the constitution to stand again(the 7th time) as president, he is widely supported by France and other western countries, since her serves their interest. After the elections which took place last November, many of us and the opposition said the election was fraud, which everyone knew it was, but guess what France said in its reports and according to "foreign observers" it was free and fair" Bullshit. France and the west have been supporting this old man now for more than 30 years(they supported his predecessor for 23 years). when we revolted in february 2009 against him and his authoritarian regime, he violently crushed the demonstration, killing according to the U.N more than 1500 people in less than 2weeks(this make syria look like father Christmas). did u ever see or listen to anything as such in the so call"free and independent" western media? I guess not. i tried several times to find something on France 24, cnn, BBC,VOICE OF AMERICA, about the situation in my country during this period, but guess what i saw nothing. yes nothing was mentioned. the only thing i read about was in the BBC were they said there were some clashes between the police and protesters in Yaounde(our capital). Its ok by me if they never reported this and many other things and uprisings that happened in my country and others. Even if they condemned our government crackdown, i and many of us will NEVER AND EVER WELCOME A FOREIGN MILITARY INTERVENTION MY COUNTRY NO MATTER WHAT. YES I WILL EVEN PREFER THAT MY PRESIDENT STAYS IN POWER THAN FOR THE WEST TO INTERVENE MILITARILY. because most of us know they are always after their own interest. I have lived and work with several of their oil companies in Africa, and i know what they think about us and other developing countries. there's a huge deal of politics going on behind the scenes my friends, which i cant talk about here. there are many other situations and countries i can mention, but the list will be too long. So i want to tell all of u saying that the west cares about civilians in other countries. Do you people really believe they give a shit about civilians, please dont make me laugh, No they dont. No country has friends just interest my friends. thats politics. dont always see things in black and white. there are always some geopolitical forces and interest at play here.
Coming to the situation in syria. i think its sad that president Assad is using lethal force against innocent civilians. the bad thing he did was to try and crush the peaceful demonstrations from the beginning, instead he should have embrace and implemented reforms(just like the king of Morocco did). It is true that in the beginning the uprising was peaceful, but with time some foreign powers(which i don't want to name) took advantage of the situation to inflame the conflict. they started arming some thugs and made use of them to kill Syrian security forces. This is what made the situation to deteriorate this way. The same thing happened in my country when we revolted in February 2009 against the government, it was very peaceful, but with time there were some vested politicians and interests who started arming some gangs and thugs to commit crim and fire at security forces, this gave a legitimate reason and excuse for the government to crack down hard on what our dictatorial president called" terrorist and satanic forces bent on dividing the nation". To be honest most of us stopped the protests not because of the government crackdown as such or the limited reforms the government made, but because we didnt want our country to descend into ethnic crisis and civil war. since we knew there were many armed gangs who were using weapons against not just the government but even civilians. that's how the protests stopped. i think its the same for Syria

Hi and thank you for taking the time to share your opinion. It is refreshing to hear from someone who is not being paid to spread propaganda, or is not consumed with ignorant anger.

Once the middle east gets its footing, Africa is next. A huge volcano on the horizon. My friend, regrettably the second I read where you where from I could have written large parts of your post for you. The same old, "its someone else s fault". First it was the colonialists, then the Cold War, always big business and now the hegemony of the West, sigh. No mention of tribal strife or corruption. Where are all those gazillions of dollars the West is sending to oil/mineral rich countries going? Not to schools and roads but to weapons and Swiss bank accounts, and of course that is the West's fault too.

I know, given the view from your vantage point, that it is hard for you to believe that sometimes, just sometimes, the great powers act simply out of compassion and moral outrage. How do we explain the billions of dollars in AID given Africa over the years? Enough with the hypocrisy, what country acting in self interest does not walk a moral tight rope? The World is not nearly as simple as people pretend. Question, if Russia and China had it their way, how much AID do you think Africa would get? Exactly!

I also don't approve of foreign intervention in Syria; however, I'm not sure that protests will end in Syria as they ended in Cameroon because the ethnic divisions in Syria are religious and not racial. The protests are instigated largely by the islamic salafists, a fanatical religious group that belives it is culturally and morally superior to every other cultural and religious group on the planet, and also believe in bringing religious rule to Syria by force if necessary; which is quite opposite to the more peaceful and rationalist ideologies that pervade in all the regions of Africa that are non-islamic. Assad may be brutal, but he is trying to protect himself, his family, his friends, his Shia islam co-religionists and also other religious minorities such as Christians and Druze from future persecution in the hands of salafi sunni muslims.

This is a classic bullshit Western propaganda! The West doesn't care about the people of the Arab or Muslim World. The West has another standard when dealing with its puppet governments in Bahrain and a few other Gulf countries.

Why not report what is now going on in the post-"spring" Libya and Egypt?

"BurkeanPluralist" wrote:
"I've willingly "given up" the freedoms and rights of the west to live in 'Communist' China and my quality of life has not decreased in any way."
There is a finite number of possibilities here:
1. Straight face lie.
2. Thinking everyone here is moron.
3. Judging by the quotation marks, he speaks not of the Communist China before Deng Xiaoping, but of the pseudo-communist one of nowadays - which means he's either a businessman making fat bundle over there, or a teacher. In both cases, his life in China has no resemblance to the life of natives... and that fuses points 1 and 2 together.

What is so Great about Living in the West? I have asked my issues this question time and again. Maybe they should be open-minded and come back to work and live with me. Democracy, Freedom??...whatever abstracts, but here we can have Great Food, Good Services and Great Shopping which I cannot find over there in abundance.
But I have given up. At the most, I will spend some months a year spending some quality time with them.

It is unlikely that Russia and China will allow the NATO countries to repeat the murderous exercise of freely bombing a country like they did in Libya which resulted in the killing of around 40,000 Libyans, most of them unarmed civilians, and the destruction of billions of dollars of Libyan property.

a) Salafi leaderships
b) Al Queda police and army
c) No running water, electricity and infrastructure
d) Cover up with Burga / Inverse Human rights for women
e) Importing Oil, Water and all sorts of services
f) Shariah Laws
g) Western Rule of Law like Political Killing, Assassination
h) Main export earning by sending Jihadis to the Ummahs, soon to the West

And if NATO did not get involved, "the killing of around 40,000 Libyans, most of them unarmed civilians, and the destruction of billions of dollars of Libyan property". You might recall, the fight was already under way and was going to continue until Qaddafi, an unelected Dictator, killed every man, woman, and child that opposed him. Really Jean Michel your comments here, and elsewhere, are simply stupid.

I'm not exactly sure what the original mandate was, but if it was to protect civilians, that meant blowing up tanks, thereby weakening Qaddafi's forces, enabling the opposition to over throw his regime. Clearly one had to see the consequences. So for Russia now to be upset implies they are not too bright, or for the sake of their fellow authoritarian allies, they are making good theater.

Have the oppositions being elected by the people? or Both sides are just killing civilian supporters and soldiers? Who are you to be the final arbiter of whom should hold power when you flatly refuse talks to hold election as in Russian draft?

That the sundry Sunni dictators in the Arab league are now being portrayed by the Western powers as the champions of democracy out to liberate the oppressed Syrian masses is the cynical fraud of a so-called Arab Spring.That TE is unable to identify this is testimony to its innate,myopic Western bias.

Russia's veto is just another disgrace from Mr Putin, a soon to be full-pledged dictator, he suddenly found him self in a strange unusual situation. Little and useless bugs, that you normally never aware of, otherwise known as ordinary people took to the streets and demand him to go. What a turn!
But Vladimir is a man of courage, when push will come to shovel he will not hesitate to shoot demonstrators.
But we all know what happened with his bro col. Gaddafi, now, Mr. Pupkin desperately needs an example to prove that shooting people with machine guns actually works.
As the result Russia may loose access to Syria's market, but who cares, it's others people money

Putin's brother col Gaddafi certainly didn't hesitate to shoot protestors, I guess if you commit mass killings, don't be surprised to end up in a fridge, with or without help from international community, especially when UN authorization granted