We're supposed to consider misfortune a "learning experience" nowadays, rather than--horror of horrors!--complain about it. I think victims of misfortune have enough to contend with without this added pressure. But I must (very reluctantly) admit that I learned something very useful from a recent misfortune of a VERY specific sort. No other misfortune could have given me this valuable information. How come??

Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 8:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) By "misfortune" do you mean something that was purely the result of luck? In this case, it was largely luckOr could this misfortune be attributed to anyone's stupidity? ignorance? recklessness? negligence? malice? Under some circumstances, any of these factors could be involved in this particular misfortune. In my case, negligence probably figured as well as luck

Are any of the following involved in the misfortune: money?noish, no material possessions? no, no health/well-being? yes, yes crime? no, no law enforcement?no, no transportation? yope, nofriends? no, no family? no, noacquaintances? no, no strangers? no, yes research? no, yesteaching?no, yes writing? no, yesother work-related duties?no, no leisure activities? yes. noreligion? no,no I'm never involved in religion.politics? no, noishchocolate?no, no other food?no, no non-human animals?no, no

Are any of the above related to what you learned? In each category, my first answer is about what is involved in the misfortune itself & my sexond is about what I learned

So did you get sick and learned something about prevention / cure from that experience? Anything to do the cost of visiting a doctor and you've now learned something about how to cure the particular ailment without medical assistance? Did ou suffer from writer's cramp or some other repitive injury?

Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 11:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So did you get sick noish and learned something about prevention / cure from that experience? noAnything to do the cost of visiting a doctor and you've now learned something about how to cure the particular ailment without medical assistance? no Did you suffer from writer's cramp or some other repitive injury? noUsmcfink (Usmcfink) New member Username: Usmcfink

Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 9:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did the misfoirtune result in you being hurt in some way?yes and did it occur in relation to some sort of transportation? yesish and were you at the time engaged in a leisure activity? irrel

did you learn something about your own health? yesishabout some one else's? \bP yesish}about health in general? yes about how the body works? about healthcare? yesishabout healthcare workers? yesish

did you learn something about the way healthcare workers are trained? no or how they learn? noor what they believe? yesish

Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 11:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did you learn a fact? yes or did you learn about a belief held by healthcare workers? see next answerthat was not true? or might not be true? Well, I learned that a certain belief apparently widespread among healthcare workers is not true

did you learn something about the way HCWs treat people? no how they diagnose? no what they think of illness? noish their attitudes to ill people? yesish did you learn something about the cause of a medical condition? no

relevant which part of your body was hurt? yesrelevant what investigations they did? onlt insofar as it helps you guess what injury I suffered x-rays? yes blood tests?

did you learn something about the costs of heatlhcare? no

were you in a hospital when you learnt this? noanother type of health setting? no

relevant what kind of HCW was involved? no doctor? nurse? paramedic? laboratory scientist? Smartyllama (Smartyllama) New member Username: Smartyllama

Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2009

Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 10:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) If you hadn't learned it, could it have led to your death? no To an illness? no To other deaths? possibly

Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 10:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did you have an x-ray? yes relevant? only becauase it might help you identify my injurywas the new fact about x-rays? nothe harm that they do? what they can actually see with them? what they can't see?

did you injure a bone?yesish a tendon? no did you get cut? nono bruised?

did you injure a limb? no hand? no foot? noback? nohead? no did you fall to the ground? yes but not really relevantbump your head? no get knocked unconscious? no

Did you crack a rib or something? Anything to do with some HCWs thinking we're all a bunch of whingers taking up their valuable time (only some i'd stress)? Were you in any danger as a result of your fall ? Was there a possibility that you'd damaged an internal organ such as a punctured lung? Relevant when this happened? Anything to do with perscribing medication? the harmful effects of some painkillers? the potential for addiction?

Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Did you crack a rib or something? yes& this is the ONLY injury that would work for this puzzle!! Anything to do with some HCWs thinking we're all a bunch of whingers taking up their valuable time (only some i'd stress)? noish Were you in any danger as a result of your fall ? no Was there a possibility that you'd damaged an internal organ such as a punctured lung? no. I actuaslly tore the cartilege rather than boreaking a bone, but the doctor said tha t for all practicval purposes this counted as cracking a rib Relevant when this happened? This puzzle would not have worked a long time ago. but I'm not sure how long Anything to do with perscribing medication? no the harmful effects of some painkillers? no the potential for addiction? no

Are any other body parts relevant in your misfortune?no In your discovery? yes Are any other medical conditions significant? yes Past surgeries? no Past hospitalizations? yes Allergies? no Medications? noFamily history? no

Did the doctors discover a second important finding while they were taking care of you? no

Did you make your discovery....shortly after the injury? While at the doctor's office?After you left the doctor? Much, much later? I made part of the discovery at the doctor's office & part about 2 weeks later

This significant medical condition from the past...it sounds like it isn't a fatal condition, correct? it IS fatalIs there more than one condition to ferret out? there is more than one possibility Or am I leading myself down the wrong path? I think you may be making a false assumption

About your past hospitalization, it's relevant to this puzzle, correct? false assumptrion. I said that past hospitalization was relewvant, not that MY past hospitalization wasWere you previously hospitalized for something related to:

So the doctor tells you that you cracked your rib, and you learned something valuable for anyone suffering from a fatal disease? Does it concern....

Ambulances/paramedics? Medical compliance? And by compliance, I guess I mean.... Getting the patient to do something? Getting the doctor to do something? Attitudes about patients among healthcare workers? Billing/costs/insurance? About who has the right to make medical decisions? Donating organs?

Did you learn that if you told the doctor you were experiencing chest pain, and it sounded like a heart attack to the doctors, that you would be seen immediately? Even if there was a crowd of patients ahead of you?

Ambulances/paramedics? yesishMedical compliance? And by compliance, I guess I mean.... Getting the patient to do something? yesGetting the doctor to do something? yesAttitudes about patients among healthcare workers? yesishBilling/costs/insurance? noAbout who has the right to make medical decisions? noishDonating organs? no

Did you learn that if you told the doctor you were experiencing chest pain, and it sounded like a heart attack to the doctors, that you would be seen immediately? no Even if there was a crowd of patients ahead of you? no

Does this concern the false belief that men and women have a different number of ribs? Does this concern pain management? Does this concern how bones heal? Does this concern bone cancer? Does this concern the diagnostic differential for chest/abdomen pain? (for example, chest/abdomen pain could mean any number of things, including cancer) Does it matter what kind of doctor helped you? Does it matter how the doctor cared for your rib? Is this new knowledge exclusively medical?

Does this concern the false belief that men and women have a different number of ribs? noDoes this concern pain management? noish or yopeDoes this concern how bones heal? noDoes this concern bone cancer? noDoes this concern the diagnostic differential for chest/abdomen pain? (for example, chest/abdomen pain could mean any number of things, including cancer) noDoes it matter what kind of doctor helped you? noDoes it matter how the doctor cared for your rib?yopeIs this new knowledge exclusively medical? yes

that this is a fracture that is not treated by putting it in plaster? that the rib is held in place by the surrounding structures? that it's treated really with pain relief? that a fractured rib can be associated with spread of cancer? that having an x ray for a relatively minor injury can show up something more serious?

that this is a fracture that is not treated by putting it in plaster? no that the rib is held in place by the surrounding structures? no that it's treated really with pain relief? noishthat a fractured rib can be associated with spread of cancer? no that having an x ray for a relatively minor injury can show up something more serious? no

Does this concern recovery time? Follow-up appointments? Puncture wounds from broken bones? The proximity of a woman's breasts to the ribs? And that a male doctor usually lifts the breast with the back of his hand? How to administer a shot in between ribs? So as not to puncture something important?

Does it matter which rib you broke? Like an upper rib vs. a lower rib? A floating rib?

Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 11:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Does this concern recovery time?yopeFollow-up appointments? noPuncture wounds from broken bones? yopeThe proximity of a woman's breasts to the ribs? noAnd that a male doctor usually lifts the breast with the back of his hand? noHow to administer a shot in between ribs? noSo as not to puncture something important? no

Does it matter which rib you broke? no Like an upper rib vs. a lower rib? irrelA floating rib? irrelPeter365 (Peter365) New member Username: Peter365

Did you learn something about preventing future injury? Did it concern having trouble breathing from the broken rib? Did it concern having to sleep propped up or standing up? Did it concern an inability to sleep with your spouse while you're injured?

What about comforting other people with a fatal disease? That you can use your negative experiences to talk someone away from giving up? Or committing suicide?

The feeling of being limited in what you can do? And the feeling of helplessness and depression that ensues?

The way some healthcare workers care for their patients in the strictly physical sense? And neglect other emotional aspects?

Does it concern the fact that once you crack a rib, it can always come back? That it can break again without warning? And you have to be careful for the rest of your life?

Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 1:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Did you learn something about preventing future injury? noDid it concern having trouble breathing from the broken rib? noDid it concern having to sleep propped up or standing up? noDid it concern an inability to sleep with your spouse while you're injured? no

What about comforting other people with a fatal disease? noish, but you're ORT That you can use your negative experiences to talk someone away from giving up? noish Or committing suicide? noish

The feeling of being limited in what you can do? no And the feeling of helplessness and depression that ensues? no

The way some healthcare workers care for their patients in the strictly physical sense? no And neglect other emotional aspects? I WANT any health care worker who deals with me to "neglect the emotional aspects" unless that just means he should be considerate & respectful.I would certainly not be interested in discussing my emotions with a hired professional rather than with my personal friends. But this is irrel to the puzzle.

Does it concern the fact that once you crack a rib, it can always come back? no That it can break again without warning? no And you have to be careful for the rest of your life? No. As far as I know, none of these things is true. Certainly, no one said anything to me along these lines.

So thanks to your broken rib (and only a broken rib), do you now have valuable advice to offer people with a fatal disease? Do you recommend a certain doctor or nurse to friends? A certain hospital or clinic? A certain form of treatment?

You say you discovered something at the doctor's office, and then something two weeks later. When you learned something two weeks later, was your rib completely healed yet? Was the doctor checking in on your two weeks later? Relevant?

So you injured your rib, but did you almost suffer something much worse?

Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So thanks to your broken rib (and only a broken rib), do you now have valuable advice to offer people with a fatal disease? yes Do you recommend a certain doctor or nurse to friends? no A certain hospital or clinic? no A certain form of treatment? yes

You say you discovered something at the doctor's office, and then something two weeks later. When you learned something two weeks later, was your rib completely healed yet? yes Was the doctor checking in on your two weeks later? no Relevant? yes

So you injured your rib yes, but did you almost suffer something much worse? no

Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 1:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is this something to do with the importance of managing symptoms for their own sake, in cases where the underlying problem is either untreatable, or will get better by itself (like the rib)?no

Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 8:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Could i have learned this by picking up a medical bookpossibly or searching on-line You can probably learn almost anything online! or would i need to have cracked a rib at some stage? No, you could also learn it from from someone else who cracked a rib--like me!

How the doctor/nurse lifts you? How you lift yourself? Making sure the doctor knows which side your broken rib is on? If you go in for surgery, writing "This is the broken rib" with a Sharpie on the injured side?

Two weeks after the broken rib, did you request to see the doctor again? Because you needed to? Even though the doctor didn't ask to see you again?

How the doctor/nurse lifts you?noHow you lift yourself? noMaking sure the doctor knows which side your broken rib is on? noIf you go in for surgery, writing "This is the broken rib" with a Sharpie on the injured side? no

Two weeks after the broken rib, did you request to see the doctor again? no Because you needed to? no Even though the doctor didn't ask to see you again? no

Is the use of wheelchairs or any walking aid relevant? noHow you're positioned in bed? noWhether you would be expected to go to the bathroom by yourself and not require a bedpan? no

Are any infections or diseases spread in a hospital such as MRSA relevant?no

As you can see i'm struggling to come up with good questions here so when you say no to all of the above can you post a recap and maybe even an ickle hint, pretty please? RECAP: Add the following to the puzzle description:, As a result of cracking my rib, I learned something that will be useful to terminally ill patients. HINT: Find out more about how it feels to have a cracked rib. Think about information that health professionals nowadays give the terminally ill & questions that health professionals normally ask the terminally ill the terminally ill.

Is breathing without pain relevant? When i cracked ribs i had a dressing so tight it felt like a corset, could this be relevant? Is drinking liquids relevant? Is being dressed or undressed relevant? Would terminally ill patients have to be in hospital to put your advice to good use?

Is breathing without pain relevant? yes When i cracked ribs i had a dressing so tight it felt like a corset, could this be relevant? no. I disn't have a dressing at allIs drinking liquids relevant? noIs being dressed or undressed relevant? no Would terminally ill patients have to be in hospital to put your advice to good use? noish

Since a cracked rib can almost only be treated with pain management, it is in some way analogous with being terminally ill because all the healthcare guys can really do is to make you more "comfortable". Is this relevant?

Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 6:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Since a cracked rib can almost only be treated with pain management, it is in some way analogous with being terminally ill because all the healthcare guys can really do is to make you more "comfortable". Is this relevant? no

Statistics seem to show that resuscitation may be successful only 1-2% of the time. For such a low survival chance it's a pretty traumatic process for both the patient and their loved ones because it can result in severe debilitation. Is this relevant?

Also, it is very important that you sign the DNR forms, because otherwise the hospital/nursing home is legally bound to make all attempts to keep you alive, including keeping you on a ventilator. So if you don't want to be resuscitated, you really should get that form filled up the moment you are admitted, or atleast make your wishes known to your loved ones. Relevant?

Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 12:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Statistics seem to show that resuscitation may be successful only 1-2% of the time. For such a low survival chance it's a pretty traumatic process for both the patient and their loved ones Why are the loved ones relevant? Whose life is it, anyway? because it can result in severe debilitation. f/aIs this relevant?Yes, but f/a

Also, it is very important that you sign the DNR forms, because otherwise the hospital/nursing home is legally bound to make all attempts to keep you alive, including keeping you on a ventilator. So if you don't want to be resuscitated, you really should get that form filled up the moment you are admitted, or atleast make your wishes known to your loved ones. Relevant? You're overlooking another possibility

The loved ones are surely relevant as involved parties. They have the right to make decisions as well if they have the power of attorney - something that comes up often in situations where the patient cannot communicate.

Further, it's obvious that the patient is the one whose life is at stake in all this - but that doesn't take away from the fact that the lives of those close to them are indeed affected. So the relevance of the 'loved ones' is a matter of opinion.

The FA --> That resuscitation can result in severe debilitation?

Are you perhaps thinking more on the lines of a situation where someone has not signed a DNR, and personally would want to be resuscitated, but the healthcare staff has to confirm the documentation, leading to a delay in the resuscitation process?

Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) The loved ones are surely relevant as involved parties. They have the right to make decisions as well if they have the power of attorney - something that comes up often in situations where the patient cannot communicate. They have the right to make decisions IF the patient chooses to give it to them, which is often unwise, as they are usually the patient's heirs & have a financial incentive for him to die before their inheritance gets used up on keeping him alive

Further, it's obvious that the patient is the one whose life is at stake in all this - but that doesn't take away from the fact that the lives of those close to them are indeed affected. So the relevance of the 'loved ones' is a matter of opinion. Yes, & mine is that patients' lives are more important than families' convenience

The FA --> That resuscitation can result in severe debilitation? No, perhaps it CAN, but. . .

Are you perhaps thinking more on the lines of a situation where someone has not signed a DNR, and personally would want to be resuscitated, but the healthcare staff has to confirm the documentation, leading to a delay in the resuscitation process? no, but you're ORT

That someone with a fractured rib could be injured worse (killed, perhaps?) by the chest compressions involved in resuscitation? That said chest compressions are actually more likely to cause fractured ribs than they are worth? (I actually seem to recall that chest compressions aren't used in CPR anymore for that reason.)

Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 7:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) That someone with a fractured rib could be injured worse (killed, perhaps?) by the chest compressions involved in resuscitation?no That said chest compressions are actually more likely to cause fractured ribs than they are worth?Well, the claim is that CPR is almost ure to crack your ribs (I actually seem to recall that chest compressions aren't used in CPR anymore for that reason.)

Nimue, you never did answer my question from 20th March about chest compressions and fractured ribs. But for D Gordon, it is certainly not the case that chest compressions have been abandoned in basic CPR. They are indispensable. You might be thinking of the mouth-to-mouth component, which some authorities have removed from their recommendations

I just want to take a moment to pray that I'm never in need of CPR when only D_gordon and Docd are present. D_gordon would insist that no chest compressions would be done, and DocD would insist that no mouth to mouth be done. And I, well, I would be gone, while the debate ensued

Since only a cracked rib would work, your being female should be irrelevant, correct?

(And that this knowledge might be of some interest to the terminally ill in considering their advanced healthcare options? yesishDocd (Docd) New member Username: Docd

Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2004

Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Nimue, you never did answer my question from 20th March about chest compressions and fractured ribs. Done, with my apologiesBut for D Gordon, it is certainly not the case that chest compressions have been abandoned in basic CPR. They are indispensable. You might be thinking of the mouth-to-mouth component, which some authorities have removed from their recommendations Bolapara (Bolapara) New member Username: Bolapara

Post Number: 450 Registered: 12-2008

Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 11:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) I just want to take a moment to pray that I'm never in need of CPR when only D_gordon and Docd are present. D_gordon would insist that no chest compressions would be done, and DocD would insist that no mouth to mouth be done. And I, well, I would be gone, while the debate ensued

Since only a cracked rib would work, your being female should be irrelevant, correct? yes

Anything to do with alternate forms of CPR? or alternate forms of other resucitation techniques?

Anything to do with the fact that EMTs act as if there were no DNR if they are not sure if one exists? Does it involve the fact that DNR orders spell out exactly what the hospital can and can't do for the patient?

Anything to do with the fact that EMTs act as if there were no DNR if they are not sure if one exists? NO Does it involve the fact that DNR orders spell out exactly what the hospital can and can't do for the patient? NO

So, by having a cracked rib, which is generally a side effect of having had CPR performed on you, you learned something useful to do with CPR and the terminally ill? And this thing also has something to do with DNRs?

The process of CPR -- are chest compressions relevant? mouth-to-mouth?

You said to look into what health professionals ask and tell terminally ill patients. Are treatment decisions relevant? symptoms? the process of dying? existential issues? the time period after their death? the patients' fears?

Is the percentage of people who actually survive cardiac arrest after getting CPR relevant? The fact that it's a lot lower than people think?

Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 8:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So, by having a cracked rib, which is generally a side effect of having had CPR performed on you, you learned something useful to do with CPR and the terminally ill? yesAnd this thing also has something to do with DNRs? yes

You said to look into what health professionals ask and tell terminally ill patients. Are treatment decisions relevant? yes symptoms? noishthe process of dying? yopeexistential issues? yope the time period after their death? no the patients' fears? yes

Is the percentage of people who actually survive cardiac arrest after getting CPR relevant? noish The fact that it's a lot lower than people think? no

you said earlier that you discovered that a certain belief held by some healthcare workers was not true - correct? does this belief relate to CPR? to how effective it is? to what harm it can do? to whether it should be done at all in some circumstances? to how it is done?

is the belief about whether doing CPR cracks ribs? whether it should? (I've heard it said that if you don't crack a rib you're not doing it hard enough)

would you basically now say to a terminally ill person - don't be afraid of asking for CPR even if your rib gets cracked because actually it's not too bad having a cracked rib and the pain does go away?

Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 8:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) you said earlier that you discovered that a certain belief held by some healthcare workers was not true - correct? yesdoes this belief relate to CPR? yes to how effective it is? no to what harm it can do? yes to whether it should be done at all in some circumstances? yesto how it is done? no

is the belief about whether doing CPR cracks ribs? no whether it should? no (I've heard it said that if you don't crack a rib you're not doing it hard enough)

would you basically now say to a terminally ill person - don't be afraid of asking for CPR even if your rib gets cracked because actually it's not too bad having a cracked rib and the pain does go away? yes!!!Clever Hannah triumphs again!!!!

****SPOILER************* End-of-life care in America is very expensive, which is why there's so much pressure on the tereminally ill to bow out quickly. One way health care workers try to induce terminally ill people to sign DNR ("do not resuscitate" orders) is by pointing out that CPR is almost bound to crack one's ribs. I always doubted that a cracked rib was a fate worse than death & now I know it's not so. It's no fun, but it's not as bad as a bad cold. Does anyone consider a bad cold to be a fate worse than death?(I've also learned that cracked ribs ate a common skiing injury & rarely cause skiiers to give up the hobby.)Thanks for sticking with it, everyone who did, & for solving it, Hannah, & please check out my new puzzle you-know-where.

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