(This is a series of letters back
and forth between Eric Wallack, me, and Hyam Sosnow. Editing
something like this so that it is readable and not repetitive can be
difficult. In this case, I 've done sections in different ways, all
explained below. Remarks in parentheses and italics were not part of
the original correspondence but were things I felt were
necessary/desirable to add.)

(One more thing: my putting this up on the site
could seem somewhat self-congratulatory and I did not want to do so
without at least saying a few words about Eric. Basically, if you
haven't heard him, you're missing out one of the most talented
musicians I've ever had the good fortune to come across, much less
work with. For a moment, let's forget the fact that he's brilliant on
a huge array of instruments. Let's just talk about acoustic guitar. I
feel Eric has developed what amounts to his own language on it, his
own vocabulary. It is a fully unique, intensely musical style, made
from elements you might not expect, in combinations that surprise,
enrich and astound. I think he has taken the range of what is
commonly thought possible on the instrument and blown it to pieces.
Guitarists trying to follow him into this new territory have got
their work cut out for them, and most will fail, lacking his vision.
He's that good.)

EW TO GS, 11/21/02:

Hi Greg:

I was talking with another musician friend about
earliest musical inspiration - especially regarding instrument
choice(s).

What was the first music you heard that made you
say to yourself, ""this is IT - I MUST do this..."?

Who was the musician you were FIRST inspired by to
play the drums? The guitar? Other?

In terms of your songwriting, what songwriter(s)
were your FIRST influence - your then "high water mark"?

Who was the first improviser you were inspired
by?

In my case, some of my answers to these questions
are pretty funny (if not a bit embarrassing):

1. Music that first inspired me to be a musician:
My dad's folk (Fahey) records

It's probably good, now and again, to remind
ourselves where we come from and how far we've come.

Eric

GS TO EW 11/21/03:

Eric,

let's see....

> What was the first music you heard that made
you say to yourself, ""this is IT - I MUST do this..."?

Didn't quite work that way for me. I originally
had no intention of being a musician. Didn't think I had any musical
talent. It was extra-musical things that got me into music. However,
I really loved music- a lot of different types before I started
playing- and it was essential in my life. So I had a lot to pull from
when I finally started.

> Who was the musician you were FIRST inspired
by to play the drums? The guitar? Other?

Drums: probably Bruford.

guitar: probably Fripp

bass: probably Wetton

keys: Vincent Crane (never did get very far with
this one, I'm a pretty wretched keyboardist)

vocals: Arthur Brown, John Wetton, Greg
Lake

Because of the nature of my getting into music,
most of these are either "probably"s or "immediately
after-the-fact"s. As I was getting into it, I thought, "All right,
I'm doing this, who can I draw inspiration from?" rather than saying
"Wow, I love what they're doing, I have to make music so I can do
that". (Although I did air-drum to Bruford
before I really decided to take up an instrument. Ron Bushy too, for
that matter, and much earlier.)

One of the things I've been meaning to do for my
site is a list of people who influenced me, and how they influenced
me. It will be a pretty long list.

> In terms of your songwriting, what
songwriter(s) were your FIRST influence - your then "high water
mark"?

Probably Beatles and Crimson (multiple
writers).

> Who was the first improviser you were
inspired by?

The first time I really understood what
improvising was, my brother (M. Segal)
pointed out to me that "Providence" on Red
was being made up on the spot (we were listening to it at the time).
I then asked him who else improvised on record and the list he gave
astounded me, I hadn't really thought of them that way before even
though I'd been listening to them for years. (Cream, Hendrix, etc.)
Bear in mind I'd been going with him to jams for years too. I just
never thought people put too much of that on record. Once I realized
what was going on, I started going out of my way to look for it and
study how it was done (by listening to records, of course). So
there's a few ways I could answer this. The first improviser I was
inspired by would have to be M. Segal. After that '73-'74 era
Crimson, and then I went back and re-listened to things I'd been
absorbing very heavily for years (especially Cream and
Hendrix).

I found some of your answers surprising- never
would have taken you for an Ace Frehley fan, for example (but we all
start somewhere- I've hung on to most of that, myself). Very cool
stuff.

take care,

Greg

(For this next section, I've merged my
responses with the full text of Eric's letter, to avoid repeating the
questions. For those unfamiliar with the convention, the text
following the > symbol is Eric's [the text I'm replying to].
)

GS TO EW, 2/17/03:

> Questions about drummers:

GS: Some interesting questions. You should be an
interviewer!

> I've always listened very carefully to
drummers, and I know you have too -being a drummer yourself.

Yeah, definitely. I did even before I was a
drummer, I love the instrument.

>In comparing your guitar playing with Hyam in
Jugalbandi and your brother in Paper Bag, I've noticed a couple of
things (realizing, of course, that they are both VERY different types
of drummers):

> 1. With your brother there is a sense that
you are either trying to stay out of each other's way or you're
trying to intentionally GET in each other's way -there seems to be a
calculated (and artistically important) tension between you both
within the band.

Mark and I have a complementary sense of rhythm. I
first learned rhythm by playing off of him, long before I played any
actual instrument. He would keep a beat and then have me put
something around it, by clapping or tapping on a table or something,
and then we would switch roles. So my rhythmic concept, especially
working with him, is to work around him. And usually he does the same
with me. The clashing you hear was us trying and occassionally
succeeding to do brash unison punches. Of course when you're doing it
unrehearsed, they aren't always going to be tight. But usually,
however it worked out it was a pretty exciting sound. Sometimes we
were trying to do a call and response kind of thing, like a dialogue.
Mark's playing has a dramatic quality to it, it's almost like the
rising and falling dynamics and punctuation of a Gospel preacher or
Hitler baiting a crowd or something. That quality is almost never
absent from his playing, particularly when he's improvising. And I
enjoy those qualities too, I definitely share that sensibility as
part of what I do, but I think I do it a little less. Sometimes we
were both trying to push the frantic energy of a piece
simultaneously. There was a forcefulness about the way we played
together, an edge, that I've never had with anyone else.

> Plus, Mark and George are a most
unconventional rhythm section! I'm reminded of how Fripp was nearly
independent of Bruford and Wetton onstage -physically and musically -
part of the late 70's Crimso brilliance.

That's interesting. I think, as in Fripp's case,
this was often out of necessity because the other guys weren't
listening, had a hard time hearing, or were just struggling to
follow- as we all were. We set ourselves a pretty big task and what
you hear is the net result of how everyone tried to meet that.

>What was the reason for not using his full
name on projects - always "M. Segal"?

He thought there were too many Mark Segals out
there and didn't want to get confused with any of them. There was
even a guy in his high school with the same exact first, last and
middle name. So he thought just using his initial would make him
stand out. He's always gone by M. Segal professionally, pretty much
as far as I can remember. (I try to honor
this and other than rare occasions like this, I refer to him in
public with his stage name.)

> Question: What is your take on working with
Mark - both in the "guitarist-to-drummer" sense and the
"brother-to-brother" musical sense?

Well as I say, musically we had a real edge, which
was wonderful when it worked. Which was a pretty high percent of the
time. (It occassionally didn't, but...we were improvising.) The
guitarist/drummer dynamic has always been the most important thing to
me, not just as a player but usually as a listener too. An example:
for me, the Who revolved around Townshend and Moon's dynamics-
Entwistle and Daltrey filled in the gaps and did the icing
(beautifully of course). It's why, when I would try to assemble a
band, I always auditioned the drummer first. The feel of the band,
the power of the band, hinges on that interplay.

As far as working with Mark in the
brother-to-brother sense, the brotherly connection provides a
similarity which gives our work together a very organic (albeit
intense) feel.

> 2. With Hyam there seems to be a more clearly
defined rhythmic hookup -likely due to the spare
instrumentation.

You haven't heard Cold Sky (at time of writing- GS) or Dog
Neutral yet. It's there as well, it was there from the first time we
played together (15 years this month). We started out as a two piece,
played that way for a while before getting George, and...well, the
connection always been there. It is very different from how I connect
rhythmically with Mark, though. Their approaches, especially the way
they accent- how intense or where they actually do it- are so
different that sometimes Hyam still throws me. But Mark used to throw
me sometimes too. Hyam has always said it was the most natural fit
with a player he's ever had. I felt I had to work at it a little
(mostly at the beginning) but that's true of most people I've played
with. We connect in a way that was always part of my way of hearing
music but which Mark never played- mainly, a more flowing jazz feel.
When Mark plays jazz it usually still has an angular feel. Hyam's
playing is never anywhere near as angular as Mark's. Hyam's whole
approach is based much more on smoothness, whereas Mark's is all
about angles and contrasts. I understand both and what's nice is that
I've had the opportunity to work with both, and learn from them. Both
guys are very capable of working in opposite territory, but even when
they do it's obvious where their roots are. At least to me.

>To my ears you're a more "grooving" player
with Hyam (even in the more abstract Jugalbandi moments).

Probably has to do with that "smooth" thing. The
situation does allow me to access more of the drummer's part of my
brain because I'm not worrying so much about connecting with another
melodic player. This also means I have to help fill things out, and
make sure I leave open places where he can take the lead- that's part
of what we do. So it goes back to your observation about the
spareness of the instrumention. But I do think the basic connection-
how we groove together, if not the extent- has remained the same,
with or without other people.

> Question: As a drummer-turned-guitarist,
what's it like playing with Hyam?

I think it helps me understand what he's trying to
do, which may be one of the reasons we click so well. As a drummer,
I'm somewhere in between Mark and Hyam on the "angular/smooth" scale.
And he of course is a huge guitar fan. What's funny is to watch us
both listening to a piece of music together- he'll be playing air
guitar and I'll be playing air drums. So he definitely listens to
what I do, he plays off it. I think he listens better than anyone
I've ever worked with (live, that is!). A very polished sense of
dynamics too. Considering the way I use my volume pedal, this works
out really well.

> Question: What do you think Mark and Hyam
would each say about working with you as a guitarist (both knowing
that you're an accomplished drummer too)?

I don't honestly know what Mark would say, beyond
what he said in his piece on the Bag website. (His "Reflections in a
Bag of Glass" piece.) That was wonderfully complimentary (to an
extent which surprised me), but it's not very specific about style,
or how we work together as players, so it might not tell you what you
want to know.

Hyam has told me (and others, in my presence) that
I have the best sense of dynamics of anyone he's ever worked with and
that we sometimes seem to be like a single instrument when we play,
or like we can read each other's minds. Again, very, very nice things
to say (all of which I can turn around and say about him with a
completely clear conscience). Beyond that- don't know.

>Maybe the question could actually be posed to
one or the other - or both?

I would feel very strange doing so. It would have
to be handled pretty much independently of me. I would be interested
in knowing specifics (approach/technique), to see if they could
describe what I do in a way that sheds some light on it, for others
or even for me- sometimes we learn a lot through how others see
us.

> Maybe this is a subject to be handled in your
"Writings" section?

Maybe with some editing, yeah. I do feel like the
drummer/guitarist connection is important in a way that others might
benefit from an understanding of it. (I'm
not sure this piece accomplishes that- I might like to take a crack
at it in more detailed terms. Meanwhile I think it works on a few
different levels and was really worth sharing, regardless of whether
or not it fully met that particular goal.)

> I have great regard for both Mark and Hyam as
musicians! (Ditto, my friend. Don't forget
yourself in there.) Mark's cymbal work is
particularly virtuosic and compelling on "MTT", and Hyam's synthesis
of Elvin Jones (maybe by way of Ginger Baker) and Billy Cobham is a
real treat! Only interested out of curiosity and for love of the
rhythm section.

Glad you enjoy their work, and I'll have to pass
on these compliments to them, I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

I appreciate you wanting to know about things like
this. Nice to get my brain working in these areas- I learned things,
or at least brought them into focus in a new way, by responding.
Thanks!

take care,

Greg

EW TO GS, 2/18/03:

Hi Greg:

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and interesting
responses to my questions about your important musical and personal
relationships with drummers. I'm REALLY interested in this kind of
stuff, and your response was a great read! I think it's important
every now and again to think about (and even write about) what we do
and why we do it.

Please forward my compliments to M. and Hyam! If
they're up to it, I'll pose the questions:

"Greg and I have been discussing the important
musical releationships he's had with drummers. From your perspective,
what was/is it like playing drums with Greg as a guitarist? How is
working with Greg different from working with other guitarists you've
played with? Does his drumming background make any difference in the
way you work(ed) with him?"

to them. I'll ask your permission for their email
addresses, and of course allow them to decline a response if they
prefer.

Talk to yo soon;

Eric

(I gave Eric the appropriate email addresses. A
short while later, this appeared in my inbox:)

HS TO EW/GS, 2/19/03

Glegg:

Here are my responses to Eric's questions. You may
want to edit this together with your answers as they relate to
Jugalbandi and put them on the Jug site. Just a thought.

Love,

Wordy Sosnow

(In this case I've allowed the repeated
segments of questions to stay in, so as to get the full rhythm of the
response and not interrupt Wordy as he goes to town.)

From: Hyam Sosnow

Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 12:44 PM

To: ewallack

Subject: Your questions about working with Greg
Segal

Eric:

First of all, thank you for your compliments on my
playing. Being mentioned in the same sentence with Ginger Baker and
Billy Cobham (both of whom have been tremendous influences on my
playing) is gratifying. Greg wrote me and said you had some questions
about working with guitarists, and with him in particular. I would be
happy to answer them for you.

>From your perspective, what was/is it like
playing drums with Greg as a guitarist? How is working with Greg
different from working with other guitarists you've played with?

I've grouped these questions together because
they're really two sides of the same thing. Greg and I established a
musical bond even before we ever played a note together. We found
each other via musician's contact ads, and when we spoke on the phone
for the very first time we discovered we had a tremendous kinship
based on our musical influences and outlooks. The first time we
played together (which was just guitar and drums, sort of a
primordial 'Jugalbandi', although at that time we only had intentions
of forming a more conventionally-instrumented band) this kinship
immediately bore musical fruit.

Working with Greg in Jugalbandi is a very
liberating experience. When we sit down to play I always feel that
anything could happen. Jugalbandi's music is extremely challenging,
because you have to be at the top of your both your technical (chops)
and conceptual (ideas) game to make it happen. You need chops to be
able to express your ideas, and you need ideas to give your chops
meaning. And those two aspects are inextricably intertwined: what you
are able to play always influences what you conceive, and what you
can conceive influences how you execute. Greg (and myself, I'd like
to think) is able to perfectly balance technique and concept within
the framework of Jugalbandi. Nothing is played "just to play it", but
we both are technically adroit enough that our musical concepts don't
wind up being stillborn.

Another aspect that I enjoy about working with
Greg in Jugalbandi is that we both bring a vast array of influences
(both musical and non-musical) to the table. Greg and I both have
extremely eclectic taste in music, and you can hear that in
Jugalbandi. Many guitarists listen only to the type of music they
play, and it shows in their playing. One listen to Greg's playing
will tell you that he's always got something different going into his
ears. This also influences Greg's choice to use lots of "effects" in
his playing. I put that word in quotes because to me they're not
effects -- they're an integral part of Greg's instrument, and the
reason he uses them is because he's looking beyond the conventional
limits of what the electric guitar is supposed to sound like. He's
taken all the different types of music he's familiar with and allowed
them to become part of his concept for playing his instrument. This
forces me to not stagnate in my approach to the drumset. Because I
choose to play an acoustic instrument, my ability to change its
native sound is much more limited than Greg's. Therefore, if I want
to remain fresh I have to be willing to change my musical approach so
that it will have meaning no matter what sort of sound Greg is using.
A good example of this is in "Approaching Readiness", on The Cram And
Stuff Method. When Greg began the piece with that tight, bubbling
sound, I knew I needed touse the drumset in a very unconventional
way, and after a brief "prelude", I settled-into playing something
very un-drumset like, what I can only describe as "lead drums" over
Greg's sounds. Most drummers limit their approach to the instrument
to one of being a supporting player, supplying a groove and
maintaining the feel of the music (a concept for drumset playing that
I've never thought much of). My playing in "Approaching Readiness" is
the antithesis of this. There's no groove, no conventional drum part
in the entire piece. Unusual, but it's what I needed to play to add
meaning to what Greg played.

The single most important thing for me about
working with Greg (and the biggest difference between working with
him and working with other guitarists) is his complete openness to
anything. Unlike most musicians, Greg doesn't pre-censor himself
before he plays. He and I both try to approach Jugalbandi with as few
preconceived ideas as possible. This allows us to more directly
connect with what we're playing as individuals, with what each other
is playing, and with what's going on inside ourselves when we play.
This isn't to say that we don't have any musical ideas we want to try
when we sit down to play (we always do), but we're both able to hear
what's happening at the time and react to it musically. This duality
is the essence of improvisation: on the one hand being able to play
the music that's inside your head and heart, and on the other hand
being able to listen to what's actually being played at that moment
(which isn't always what you intended to play) and react to it in a
musically meaningful way. Most musicians are able to play what's on
their minds (to some degree), but few are open enough and able enough
to react "in the moment" and have that reaction further fuel what
they're playing. Too many players stick too closely to a preconceived
agenda when they play -- you can hear that even in some
highly-regarded fusion music these days (Liquid Tension Experiment
comes to mind) -- and adhering tightly to an agenda stagnates their
improvisations. Greg and I are never afraid to make a complete
180-degree turn in our playing when it suits the moment, and this is
what makes playing in Jugalbandi so exciting and challenging for me.
Greg and myself are keen listeners -- when we set up we always want
to face each other and ensure that we're able to hear each other well
-- and this as much as anything sets Greg apart from other
guitarists. When I play with Greg in Jugalbandi I never get the
feeling that he's in his own world. He's always reacting to what I'm
playing; always nudging (sometimes pulling) the music in a different
direction. The best moments are those in which the interplay between
us is perfectly balanced with our own internal musical dialogs. At
those times it feels both like we're in our own musical world and at
the same time part of this larger music. "Approaching Readiness" is
one example of this; another is "The View Is Better From The Top Of
The Food Chain". In "View", we locked-into each other immediately at
the first note and took the piece through many changes together. In a
way that piece felt like it was playing us -- it was one of those
transcendent musical experiences where you feel like you're being
taken on a journey where you're only partially in control.

>Does his [Greg's] drumming background make any
difference in the way you work(ed) with him?"

I can't say that it has had any direct influence
on my playing with Greg. I know that it gives Greg a deeper
understanding of what I'm doing, but you'll have to ask him how much
of an influence it's had on how he approaches his guitar playing.
Although much of my drumming is musically dense (I've liked dense,
difficult music ever since I was a young kid) I try not to
intentionally play things that will be technically impressive to
other drummers, since that rarely serves the music. I will say that
it feels great when we're listening-back to a piece and Greg truly
understands something I've done from a drumming standpoint, but this
is after-the-fact. It really isn't a factor while we play
together.

I hope that this gives you a little more insight
into how Greg and I work together. I do enjoy talking about drumming
and music (which should be obvious from my lengthy replies to your
questions). After reading this I'd be interested to know if it has
any influence on how you react to Jugalbandi's music. Feel free to
write me.