Question about American view and justification of 1945 Bombings of Japan

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General ChatPost away about anything in general just remember no content that would fit in other sections.

@ Jemstar: I have a lot of information on Nazi medical experimentation if you'd like to know some. Josef Mengele is nearly the "figurehead" for the experiments, but in ranking, he was pretty low. He's popular due to the "twin" experiments as you may know, but also because he was never caught. There's a lot of rumor and mysticism about Mengele.

I have a book all about the Nazi doctors because I have a sick fascination with them. Have you researched Carl Clauberg? This "doctor" (I refuse to consider these men and women actual medical professionals) was responsible for thousands of forced sterilization on women. He would inject formaldehyde into the uterus. Much good that did, because it led to infection and permanent disabilities.

Ohh, yes please. I also have a sick fascination with them ;P. What's the book called? I'd love to look it up. And no, I haven't come across him before, I'll look him up, that's gross. I actually did something in history today about the Germans, while many other countries said that a World War should Never happen again, the Germans did not share that view. Their defeat was seen as a national crisis, or something along those lines. I think the fact that they were so close to victory in March 1918 and then were defeated later warped a lot of them - there's a view that this is what caused the birth of the Nazis. I'm not trying to justify what happened though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario

History books, how much of what is in them is the truth?????

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfreakofkorn

free education = government ran

which equals, at what they want printed in the books. slowly rewriting and erasing history

That's exactly what I was thinking, guys. I'm not sure whether to trust most of them at all because of the Government possibly altering them. To be fair, over here I think we've mostly accepted that throughout history we were barbaric and treated those from other countries in a disgusting manner. But, I think especially when it comes to the Wars, there will always be some censorship and alterations.

Sorry if this has gone off topic.

(Sorry about the double post I'm just trying to catch up)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfreakofkorn

i dont know. lets see ....

what would say, that you woke up and started to get ready to go to school...

walking out the door and met up with your friends walking toward the school, and in the distance you seen a flash and glow like a nite light in the dark afterwards. and also effecting further generations w/ radiation ....

alot of people i know ( and trust me i know some people and i travel very often ) look down on this ... at what the US of A has done ...

but w/o the germans tech. i would say WE would have behind 30 or 40 years ... but who is counting

and this is just an opinion and not to pick an argument

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfreakofkorn

also the US did not want to loose any more lives ( as they did in the European theater ) and they estimated the the toll would be more than 500,000 soldiers ..

as mentioned earlier, the Japanese had honor and would fight to the end ( kamakize comes to mind ) and surrender would be dis honorable and shame ( read up a little on japanese history and and you will understand this ) ...

but after the war, the countries from around the world, got together and formed the UN ( united nations ) with the US was in the fore front ....

i ll have to look into it a bit more, but before roosevelt or turman died ( if i remember right ), signed some kind of commission at where this does not happen again and the US would intervene, which became big brother is a sort to the world

There's so many factors to consider for it I just can't come up with my own conclusion to be honest. In short you could say that it's terrible to drop the bombs, but I can understand to an extent why the US dropped them. I imagine Truman was under immense pressure at the time (not that being President isn't pressuring as it is).

I don't believe much in history books. I mean in Japan there's one line on the rape and assaults they committed in China and about a paragraph on the bombings and how it was an "honourable draw". Unless I read wrong.

I don't believe much in history books. I mean in Japan there's one line on the rape and assaults they committed in China and about a paragraph on the bombings and how it was an "honourable draw". Unless I read wrong.

Thank you. ^^

I think one of Japan's biggest flaws is their honour. It's good to have pride, honour and all, but it looks like they can't admit to their wrong doings or defeats, which is rather childish imo.

Ohh, yes please. I also have a sick fascination with them ;P. What's the book called? I'd love to look it up. And no, I haven't come across him before, I'll look him up, that's gross. I actually did something in history today about the Germans, while many other countries said that a World War should Never happen again, the Germans did not share that view. Their defeat was seen as a national crisis, or something along those lines. I think the fact that they were so close to victory in March 1918 and then were defeated later warped a lot of them - there's a view that this is what caused the birth of the Nazis. I'm not trying to justify what happened though.

The book is called "The Nazi Doctors" (so original right) by Robert Jay Lifton. World War I left the Germans crippled and in a huge state of economic and psychological depression. Like you said, it was seen as a national crisis. Their pride had been shot down and they were forced to pay the repercussions of the war. Not to mention their currency. The Reichsmark was one of the biggest hyperinflation flops in history. For example, bread cost way over 200 million Reichsmark. No working class citizen could afford that, or if they could, it took them 2 weeks at minimum to start.

The Nazi doctors are interesting individuals because they really show the extreme ends of medicine and human morals. They were literally given free reign on the victims that entered the medical blocks, all in the name of "science" and finding the master race. I honestly think half of them were so power hungry, they didn't CARE if the experiments made sense. Hitler had given them authority to do whatever sick and twisted experiment they could think of. If you put yourself in the situation, you have to wonder, would I be like that? A lot of people would say no, but think of the curiosities. Human beings don't know everything. Given the chance, wouldn't you be the least bit curious to see what would happen under controlled circumstances? If I do this to one patient and this to another, what will happen? What if I don't do anything at all?

Another interesting Nazi doctor was the female doctor Herta Oberheuser. She's not as well known because she wasn't at the epicenter of Auschwitz, but instead "practiced" at Ravensbrück. Her experiments involved bone and muscle transplants on women, as well as injecting oil into children's hearts.

Thanks greatly, Haku. I remember learning about the hyperinflation in high school, probably not in much depth though. I also think they must have been very power hungry, as they're doctors they have a great interest in science - being given so much freedom must have been like a dream come true for most of them, especially with the Nazi ideologies being so popular at the time.

I've probably bored you or annoyed you guys to the point to where you'd just like stop...posting... but Nazi doctors and World War II are kind of my things. If I get troublesome just ask me to stop haha.

The validity of the knowledge gained from this experiments is extremely controversial. We did indeed gain some knowledge depending on the experiments, but under what guise? The subjects were not healthy, cared for individuals. They were starved, beaten (tortured), and in the worst imaginable states. Tell me, if you were going to perform an experiment on, say, lab rats, to determine at what temperature their body froze, would you pick the near death rat or the lively, healthy rat? See what I mean?

The Nazis used a lot of medical experiments to determine the limits of the human body. These were done to help the German front and "mimicked" what it would be like out fighting in freezing weather or injured during gun fire etc. You can argue that they expanded our knowledge of whatever you want, but what purpose does it serve if what we learned was done in the most horrible means and unethical ways possible? Nazi science was bad science.

Take Mengele's experiment of adding blue dye color to the eyes of twins. Any Optometrist or Ophthalmologist, at the time, would have known it is IMPOSSIBLE to change eye color naturally. Mengele himself didn't even study the areas of optometry in school, from what we know. He received his PhD in Anthropology, for example. It wasn't until von Verchauer encouraged him to work at Auschwitz (and the rising Nazi party eugenics movement prior) that he even delved into genetic research.

I have a gut feeling Mengele himself knew his experiments were going to serve no medical purpose and just felt like harming a bunch of innocent children and those with abnormalities. I mean, the man put children into barracks and called it his "zoo".

I still argue that you can't and shouldn't use the date gathered by the Nazis as legitimate medical data. Other than the deplorable state of the subjects, the unethical method the experiments were conducted, what "good" did the experiments do? They were not intended for other people to see them. There was no humane effort to receive the data. The Germans wanted the data for the Germans. That's it. The experiments won't done with any sort of altruistic means.

Asylums were once home to inhumane medical experiments upon those afflicted with mental illness. These experiments continued way up into the 80's until people finally realized that you can't cure homosexuality by dipping someone repeatedly into freezing water. Psychologists don't use this data at all, and condemn what happened. Why should doctors consider using Nazi data? The ends do not justify the means here.