I know FTDNA has done some retesting of suspicious results, I don't know if 23andMe does the same thing. Also, 5 other kits are L21+, DF13-, DF63-, so it's not like it never happens. :)

As JDean wrote, your testing options for now are L459 and Z245 which are tangled with L21. That is, if you decide to do further testing.

-Kai

Hello Kai,

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in. :)

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in. :)

Thanks for the input,

Todd

Todd,

No worries. L459 and Z245 are currently tangled with L21. So all known L459/Z245+ are also L21+ and all known L459-/Z245- are L21-. Quite a lot of testing has been done on the two to split them from L21, but most of those kits turned out to be DF13+, and we know DF13 is L459+/Z245+. We also know DF63 is L459+/Z245+. So if those SNPs are below L21, they will be found in a L21+/DF13-/DF63- kit. Only one such kit has tested to my knowledge. There is also a possibility that they are above L21, so P312* kits are also recommended to test.That's why JDean suggested those SNPs.

Good luck with your L21 test and let's hope it mirrors the 23andMe result! :-)

I have ordered the L21 test at FTDNA to make sure. Until I saw JDean's post about L459 and Z245, I thought that I was done after DF13- and DF63-.

At this point, since the line I match has an uncertain origin, I can't help other people by testing myself. And until we grow the number of testers to a meaningful level (if that can ever be reached) I think I will hold off on further tests. I will report back on the L21 "second opinion" when it comes in. :)

Thanks for the input,

Todd

Todd,

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something. I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something. I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

MJost

Reply to both Kai and Mark,

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process. Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers?

May I suggest calling FTDNA tomorrow (Before Wednesday's order cutoff) and change your order to the L459 instead if you wish to confirm something. I dont think 23andme is in error. L21+ DF13- DF63- is old and one can not predict where the lines are drawn yet.

MJost

Reply to both Kai and Mark,

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process. Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers?

Thanks,

Todd

Personally, I think an L21 test is the best move for you right now. Confirm your 23andMe result first, then worry about L459, which appears to be equivalent to L21 anyway. If some of these guys are hoping to get an L21+ L459- result, it would need to be confirmed as L21+ at some point. Might as well establish the L21+ first.

I have my doubts that any L21+ L459- guys are out there, but you never know.

What with the holiday I didn't notice these recent posts until now. My L21 test is already batched and in process. Are there funds available for further SNP testing of my apparently rare type? What about the other people who are L21+ DF13- DF63-, have they not been persuaded to test for these additional markers?

Thanks,

Todd

Darn, well the L21 test will set you up in the FtDNA SNP database formally as L21** helping all. We say; 'Thank you' for your contributions.

A question: is Geno 2.0 expected to contribute to this conversation? I know it promises to plunge into the deepest, darkest clades ever imagined by us mere mortals. Is it hoped that L21 will become "untangled" in Geno 2.0? I haven't planned to do that test, but surely other members of my type are awaiting those results.

A possibly interesting finding after entering my Y-DNA markers into Ancestry.com. I matched someone named Wells at 32/34 markers. In FTDNA, I match a different person named Wells at 62/67 markers. The only other closer Y-DNA matches I have are with members of the Wildes family who I already know about, and we are a cluster unto our own with a MRCA six generations ago, not matching anyone else with the Wilde(s) surname or any other surname.

The Wells in FTDNA has not answered my emails. It doesn't appear that he has done deep clade testing, I do not think he is in the Wells surname project, and he does not list an ancestor. The other Wells in Ancestry had his last login in 2007, so I'm not very hopeful for a reply. But after matching the Wells in FTDNA, I wondered if perhaps Wildes and Wells were variants, or maybe Wells was the original name of the Wildes family which got corrupted. Now with this new Wells match in Ancestry I'm even more inclined to think the original surname of my line may have been Wells.

It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

Todd

Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.

Yes, I'm relieved. But is that a typo? Earlier in the thread I saw L459 and Z245 mentioned as possibilities for further testing.

Any thoughts on how to grow this L21** subgroup? The sample size is woefully small.

It's official, my L21 test with FTDNA came back positive, confirming my 23andMe result. So I am R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to FTDNA nomenclature, L21+, DF13-, DF63-. But sorry that we don't know where the ancestry is from except perhaps England or Scotland according to different family traditions.

Todd

Must have been quite a relief after forking out for DF13 & DF63 :)

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.

I hate to say it because I don't really feel good that you'd be negative for any of these, but true L21** folks like yourselves are the ones who need to test for Z2542 and L459 and Z245 and maybe even Z260. They are in the "cloud." See graphic athttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/

There are some others you could consider if you're game. In particular the position of Z2542 in relation to DF13 has yet to be ascertained, a test from an L21** fellow such as yourself could be useful.

Yes, I'm relieved. But is that a typo? Earlier in the thread I saw L459 and Z245 mentioned as possibilities for further testing.

Any thoughts on how to grow this L21** subgroup? The sample size is woefully small.

Todd

No DF63 is known to be negative for Z2542 and so far all DF13* people who have tested it are positive, it could be below DF13 or above.

Geno2 should help grow L21**, DF13 isn't included but enough of the downstream SNPs are, encouraging those that come back L21* via that to test DF13 probably shouldn't be to hard.