When it comes to tackling complicated legal issues, one would be hard-pressed to conjure a less likely partnership than Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz and Baylor University President Ken Starr.Well, OK, there was the David Boies and Ted Olson confederacy fighting for gay marriage rights after they took opposite sides during the 2000 Bush-Gore election dispute. Still, witnessing ...

Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

To answer your closing question, no we are not.

And we haven't been for quite some time now, it's just that it's reached a point where it is now painfully obvious to those willing to see it instead of pretend nothing is wrong.

"The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide." (Barack Obama August 21, 2010)

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

Her employer pays for her insurance, therefore her employer pays for it.

Do you not see the direct connection here?

If not, the substance of the discussion is beyond your grasp and you should avoid discussing it.

The question is why someone should be forced to violate their religious beliefs by being forced to do this in the first place. A direct part of the Christian religion flatly states - Col 3:23 (CEV) Do your work willingly, as though you were serving the Lord himself, and not just your earthly master, (BBE) Whatever you do, do it readily, as to the Lord and not to men, (ERV) In all the work you are given, do the best you can. Work as though you are working for the Lord, not any earthly master.

The Constitution guarantees us this right without government interfering and placing its mandates as being above God's mandates.

"The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide." (Barack Obama August 21, 2010)

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

Her employer pays for her insurance, therefore her employer pays for it.

Do you not see the direct connection here?

If not, the substance of the discussion is beyond your grasp and you should avoid discussing it.

The question is why someone should be forced to violate their religious beliefs by being forced to do this in the first place. A direct part of the Christian religion flatly states - Col 3:23 (CEV) Do your work willingly, as though you were serving the Lord himself, and not just your earthly master, (BBE) Whatever you do, do it readily, as to the Lord and not to men, (ERV) In all the work you are given, do the best you can. Work as though you are working for the Lord, not any earthly master.

The Constitution guarantees us this right without government interfering and placing its mandates as being above God's mandates.

The portion of the cost of insurance paid by the employer is part of an employee's compensation, no different than the cash paid. Does the employer have the right to dictate how an employee spends the cash portion of his/her compensation package? No. It is no different for the non-cash portion. If the employer is so uncomfortable with the available insurance options, then the employer should increase the cash compensation and eliminate the insurance portion. Problem solved.

Of course Hobby Lobby is not a religion.no matter the beliefs of the owners. So what if an employer claims his religious freedoms are being threatened by FICA taxes. If the precedent is set it would open the doors pretty wide for rejection of any state or federal laws regarding employment, working conditions or safety of employees.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

To answer your closing question, no we are not.

And we haven't been for quite some time now, it's just that it's reached a point where it is now painfully obvious to those willing to see it instead of pretend nothing is wrong.

My guess is that the folks in the South said exactly the same thing when slavery was ended. Too bad, part of living in a society is to have rules that hopefully benefit everyone , even though they don't fit what you may like.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

This. If the owners don't want to participate in what the health plan should offer, they don't have to.

They can stop clutching their pearls and pretending this is about principle. This is about trying to force your beliefs onto your employees. They are workers, with rights, not property of Hobby Lobby.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

This. If the owners don't want to participate in what the health plan should offer, they don't have to.

They can stop clutching their pearls and pretending this is about principle. This is about trying to force your beliefs onto your employees. They are workers, with rights, not property of Hobby Lobby.

..If only that were true. If the owners choose to not participate or offer a health plan, then they are fined by the grand dictator and his ilk in government to the tune of $375 million and are out of business. So, you cannot say they have a choice. As with most pro[re]gressives, they do not want choice (unless it involves killing children).

Facts have a conservative bias. That's why its the democratic party's goal is to fog the mind of the average voter.

It is very much against my religious beliefs to participate and fund the military (euphemistically called 'defense' in this country).

Since I am a real, genuine 'person' (not an 'organization' of people), I hope that a favorable ruling for Hobby Lobby on this issue ultimately will mean that any and all portions of my taxes that go to pay for the military can be deducted and those taxes for 'defense' that I have paid in the past will be remitted back to me.

It is the principle of the thing, after all -- how can I have true religious freedom if the government is forcing me to give them my money to pay for things that go against my religion?

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

This. If the owners don't want to participate in what the health plan should offer, they don't have to.

They can stop clutching their pearls and pretending this is about principle. This is about trying to force your beliefs onto your employees. They are workers, with rights, not property of Hobby Lobby.

..If only that were true. If the owners choose to not participate or offer a health plan, then they are fined by the grand dictator and his ilk in government to the tune of $375 million and are out of business. So, you cannot say they have a choice. As with most pro[re]gressives, they do not want choice (unless it involves killing children).

The owners are not forced to use aspects of that plan.

BTW, this all could have been prevented if we had what progressives truly wanted - single payer.

Then private tyrannies like Hobby Lobby wouldn't be involved in health plans at all, and we can all move on with joining the rest of modernity in single payer.

Corporations should just end their health plan contributions altogether - as the Obamacare penalties are less than the cost anyway. Let the population decide for itself what they are willing to pay for.

Sure, as long as I am not forced to pay for your cholesterol medication, or Viagra, or insulin. If due to purchasing insurance, I am forced to help pay for the unhealthy lifestyles of so many of us, then adding birth control to the mix isn't such a big deal.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

No one of faith is being asked to pay for anyone's anything. That's why we have insurance. If a woman wants to use the option, that is her business. Not her employers! These people do not operate a church or hospital or a non profit. They run an incorporated business. They profit from their business, quite a bit. The beliefs of the owners does not trickle down to the people they employ.

This. If the owners don't want to participate in what the health plan should offer, they don't have to.

They can stop clutching their pearls and pretending this is about principle. This is about trying to force your beliefs onto your employees. They are workers, with rights, not property of Hobby Lobby.

..If only that were true. If the owners choose to not participate or offer a health plan, then they are fined by the grand dictator and his ilk in government to the tune of $375 million and are out of business. So, you cannot say they have a choice. As with most pro[re]gressives, they do not want choice (unless it involves killing children).

The owners are not forced to use aspects of that plan.

BTW, this all could have been prevented if we had what progressives truly wanted - single payer.

Then private tyrannies like Hobby Lobby wouldn't be involved in health plans at all, and we can all move on with joining the rest of modernity in single payer.

Single payer is highly unpopular with the population so using that excuse is weak at best. And yes, they are forced to use the aspects of the plan going forward, according to ObamaCare lest they face a massive fine that puts them out of business.

Facts have a conservative bias. That's why its the democratic party's goal is to fog the mind of the average voter.

Sure, as long as I am not forced to pay for your cholesterol medication, or Viagra, or insulin. If due to purchasing insurance, I am forced to help pay for the unhealthy lifestyles of so many of us, then adding birth control to the mix isn't such a big deal.

That is a faux comparison as birth control, in 99% of cases, is not a medical treatment. That would be like saying my health insurance should be required to cover my viagra or ammo for my firearm.

And again, the case was not about birth control per se but about abortificants.

Facts have a conservative bias. That's why its the democratic party's goal is to fog the mind of the average voter.

all American wrote:Can Obama and the Democrats force people of faith to go against their faith because they crammed Obama-care full of Progressive Freedom stealing garbage. Obama should be impeached since he changes the law illegally to meet his fancy but still they want to make Christians to pay for abortions. Are we truly free in America anymore when legislators and Dictators can force us to compromise our beliefs???

Your post is full of inaccuracies and out right lies.

1). No one of faith is being forced to pay for anyone else care. A business is not a person and the owners of any business have options, they don't have to provide insurance. They can either pay the tax penalty for not providing insurance or they can make sure that their employees are paid enough (400% of poverty) to make them ineligible for subsidies on the exchange and if no employees use a subsidy on the exchange the business does not have to pay the tax penalty.

2). Obama has not changed the law. He has delayed some parts based on changing condition during the implementation. He has that authority as long as the whole law is implemented eventually. Every president has that power and every president in my life time at least has used that when implementing large and complex bills into law.

3) The law specifically states that no government, local, state or federal will ever be able to use the mandatory requirements to force insurance to cover abortions or abortion causing drugs. So although there are many christians that do pay for their own abortions no one, including christians are being forced to pay for any one else's abortion.

Sure, as long as I am not forced to pay for your cholesterol medication, or Viagra, or insulin. If due to purchasing insurance, I am forced to help pay for the unhealthy lifestyles of so many of us, then adding birth control to the mix isn't such a big deal.

That is a faux comparison as birth control, in 99% of cases, is not a medical treatment. That would be like saying my health insurance should be required to cover my viagra or ammo for my firearm.

And again, the case was not about birth control per se but about abortificants.

99%?!? Are you lying on purpose or just plain obtuse?

The study—based on U.S government data from the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG)—revealed that after pregnancy prevention (86%), the most common reasons women use the pill include reducing cramps or menstrual pain (31%); menstrual regulation, which for some women may help prevent migraines and other painful “side effects” of menstruation (28%); treatment of acne (14%); and treatment of endometriosis (4%). Additionally, it found that some 762,000 women who have never had sex use the pill, and they do so almost exclusively (99%) for noncontraceptive reasons.Menstrual-related disorders and irregular periods are particularly common during adolescence. Not surprisingly, the study found that teens aged 15–19 who use the pill are more likely to do so for non-contraceptive purposes (82%) than for birth control (67%). Moreover, 33% of teen pill users report using oral contraceptive pills solely for noncontraceptive purposes.

Sid wrote:The question is why someone should be forced to violate their religious beliefs by being forced to do this in the first place. A direct part of the Christian religion flatly states - Col 3:23 (CEV) Do your work willingly, as though you were serving the Lord himself, and not just your earthly master, (BBE) Whatever you do, do it readily, as to the Lord and not to men, (ERV) In all the work you are given, do the best you can. Work as though you are working for the Lord, not any earthly master.

The Constitution guarantees us this right without government interfering and placing its mandates as being above God's mandates.

O.M.G. This kind of religious crap makes my skin crawl. Yes, when one is being paid to do a job, they should work hard to earn their pay. But when I think of some of the yahoos I've worked for in the past, if they got it in their heads that the employees should be slaving for them as if for God, they would have been even bigger jerks.

Just do your job, treat your employees well, and keep the twisted, perverse, backward, manipulative religious junk out if it.