Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No. Never. Not in a million years.

Seems pretty cut and dried an answer to me. So, no matter how much Kiran had prayed, he would have ended up in hospital because THAT is what god had decided to do.

Sorry to hear that god wanted you in hospital Kiran. Sorry also I recommened that you pray - as SkyWriting has made crystal clear, prayer won't actually change a thing.

That was not may answer. My answer was that God does not divert from what He wants.What God has in store, is a mystery. Man cannot change what God has planned. God's plans will not be diverted. But what God wants most is a relationship with Him above all else. If a person prays for help, God will provide a solution, and man has no idea what exactly that solution will be. The difference being that nobody has to go through trials in disrepair and alone. Will God make changes to the current direction? There is much more PEACE in finding out with God at your side than without. Does he make changes? In my experience he uses people who do listen to Him to make changes days or weeks ahead of time. So He even knows what your going to pray for and when. Then he answers your prayer as you requested or likely much better than your request. Ahead of time.

If there is anything "cut and dried" about it, then you are not reading what I said. It took years for me to understand what was going on and it's far from cut and dried in my mind.

If a person prays for help, God will provide a solution, and man has no idea what exactly that solution will be.

How in the world could you possibly know this? How can you possibly tell the difference between this silly idea, and humans capable of finding solutions on their own?

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.

Logged

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

Kinda sounds like god did something before any of your praying/letting go acts.

Yes. Like a day or week earlier. Thanks for reading.

Did you read what you typed? You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'. Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something? Irrelevant? Actually not a contradiction?

Logged

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No. Never. Not in a million years.

That was a clear answer you gave there. So are you NOW saying that - if god wanted Kiran in hospital, and Kiran had prayed "don't put me in hospital", god would have changed his mind, and NOT sent Kiran to hospital?

I say No. Never. Not in a million years.

But perhaps YOU now want to say that if Kiran had prayed "don't send me to hospital", god would've changed his plans as a response to the prayer?

Make your mind up Sky, I'm getting pretty tired of you changing your tune every time it suits you.

But maybe you can do it - I'm all ears. Please reconcile these two exchanges:

We live subjected to time.God is not subjected to time. God resides in a place the past, present, and future are all the same. So I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in itunless it's about a human point of view. With God, "Will do" is exactly the same as ancient history. There is no "God will do". He already did it from the beginning of time.

Did you read what you typed? You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'. Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something? Irrelevant? Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing. Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.- He had me pray for help.- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer". - I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all. - At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day. It was God's timing to let me know that He was there. Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway. Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.

.....I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it....

Fair enough. So then you can NOT say what your god will do in response to anything I may do, or not do. If the above is the line you are choosing to run with, then you cannot guarantee anything your god might do, and hence you give us NO reason at all to try to engage with it.

Cue Skywriting now changing his position yet again to try to cover two conflicting assertions. I fully expect him to follow up shortly with "but I CAN tell you what god will do if you pray to him", completely negating what he said here.

Did you read what you typed? You said weeks before...now you're going 'like a day or week earlier'. Maybe the "weeks before" was hyperbole or something, but it's getting hard to tell.

And that being a contradiction of your claim of "the micro-second I gave God complete control"...just dismissed or something? Irrelevant? Actually not a contradiction?

Yes, it is quite confusing. Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.- He had me pray for help.- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer". - I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all. - At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day. It was God's timing to let me know that He was there. Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway. Except for the timing.

This same order of events has taken place several times with the same kind of results, every time.

You haven't really cleared up the confusion unfortunately. It sounds like god did stuff irrespective of your prayer to manifest the expected result, primarily because he did stuff before you thought about praying about it.

However, I'm now more interested in the nature of:

Quote

Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.- He had me pray for help.- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer".

Let me see if I have this correctly - god arranged for you to have a desperate need of some kind (caused you or someone you loved to suffer), then told you to pray to him for help, then told you to stop with the prayer and then eliminated the desperate need.

How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character? It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.

Logged

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

You know what that sounds like? Something that would have happened whether or not you "let go". None of those things you mentioned were done when you prayed - they happened days or weeks before, and likely had nothing to do with you at all. You would have come across this whether or not you prayed to God, and the only reason you think otherwise is because you happened to pray right before you came across this. In other words, you've fallen prey to the "correlation = causation" fallacy because of your emotional response to finding this just when you needed it.

Personally, I'm glad things worked out for you here. But you're doing yourself no favors by claiming that God answered your prayer by doing this stuff - weeks before you made the prayer.

SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions?

Week 1. He had a Farmer mow a "crop circle" in his field.Week 2. He arranged for me to have desperate need.- He had me pray for help.

Again, Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not? Is god so bored that he has to come up with these ridiculous concoctions?

1. God finds some random situation (this supposed 'crop circle').2. Then he goes "hmm... what type of problematic situation can I invent so that this crop circle eventually becomes the solution? Hmm...".3. "Ah! I got it... Everything is in place now... but what the heck, I will still make him pray to me, although it will absolutely be inconsequential."

- He told me "That's enough prayer, now shut up and let me answer". - I listened and dropped all my requests and just agreed to Let God handle it all. - At that instant, the rain stopped, the place to pull off the road was visible, I got my wife and her wheelchair out of the van, the crop circle was dry and the sun came out and her misery was taken care of.

4. Now god goes "ugh, enough of this praying thing! Shut up!". By the way, SkyWriting, how did this happen exactly? Did you hear a loud voice from god telling you to shut up and stop praying? Or did you hear voices in your mind?5. Then god just lets things happen as they were going to happen anyway (probably laughing and enjoying the fact that he's played his tricks again).6. Yet, SkyWriting is totally amazed of this 'undeniable miracle'... absolutely in awe (even though he can even describe step by step how god tricked him).

In retrospect there was only one miracle that day. It was God's timing to let me know that He was there. Nothing else was really unusual and it could have all happened anyway. Except for the timing.

... so there was a miracle that day... even though nothing was really 'unusual and it could have all happened anyway'??Timing?? Are you aware of the fact that your description of this even sounds practically the same as the definition of coincidence? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence

Yes, it is quite confusing. Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Very confusing, indeed. Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not?

Again. God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same. You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money. You decide what is best for their long term.

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority. Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions?

I'll be watching the news for the big announcements.

So why have you focused on those things instead of the volunteer work you could be doing at your local hospital? Or on your block? Even keyboard work for somebody without fingers. Do you still own a TV? And why?

Because God has answered my prayers better than I requested, the micro-second I gave God complete control. I was there, so only I know the exact moment I gave up complete control to God. In that moment, He answered my prayers in ways that I could never have even asked for. The weather changed, the ground became dry, a field was moved, driveway was created for my car. All done weeks before by some farmer who did God's bidding that I needed part of his field mowed flat and smooth for no good farming reason. Well, from my POV there was no "good reason" to mow larger circular "crop circle" into a field with access from the road. I dunno why the farmer did it. Likely he had some reason. But I was the one with a disabled wife who needed to get out of our van at that particular time, during a downpour. Was the farmer informed? I dunno. I had needs, they were immediate and critical, I prayed, God instantly answered. Not instantly, I had to "Let Go" of my request first. My "trial" was the process of "letting go" of the request and "letting God" answer in His way. It is hard work, letting go.

You know what that sounds like? Something that would have happened whether or not you "let go".

Yes. The only miracle was the conversation and the timing of it. All 5 times it has happened.

How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character? It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.

I didn't intend to disturb you so much with my analysis of what happened.

.....I can't answer a question with "change" or "will do" or "response" in it....

Fair enough. So then you can NOT say what your god will do in response to anything I may do, or not do. If the above is the line you are choosing to run with, then you cannot guarantee anything your god might do, and hence you give us NO reason at all to try to engage with it.

God is interested in conversing with you. The only changes or miracles will be how your view of life changes, nothing else.

Yes, it is quite confusing. Our Father in Heaven set up this following chain of events in my "Time-line"

Very confusing, indeed. Why would god have you pray if all the events were in place to happen as planned regardless of whether you prayed or not?

Again. God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same. You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money. You decide what is best for their long term.

"Material stuff" or doing what they want is NOT a top priority. Your relationship / time is the top priority. God did those things as part of our conversation.

Fine.

Then you need to address why it is that - for the many people here who have tried extremely hard to have this conversation/relationship with your god, that he has not responded.

And I don't know if YOU'VE ever been a parent - but when your children ask you for something that you do not want to give them, you explain to them clearly and distinctly why it is that you are doing (or not doing) what they asked for.

Nor do you engineer situations of "desperate need" for them. I fear for any children you may have, as I worry that you will deliberately put them in harm's way only so that you can jump in and save them. That's not being a parent: that's being a dangerous and emotionally needy jerk-off. "Superhero Syndrome", I believe its called, where people have so great a need to be valued and loved that they engineer disasters so that they can rescue people from the situations they themselves create. From what you've been saying here, that is exactly what your god does.

How is this entity not a mob boss or otherwise shady, evil character? It sounds like god planned to f**k with you, set up some parameters (i.e. crop circle farmer dude) to save you from the thing he did to you to f**k with you, then told you to implore his help in making the thing that he did to f**k with you go away.

Apparently, this god character of yours is either a sick, evil bastard, a massive idiot, or both.

I didn't intend to disturb you so much with my analysis of what happened.

I'm sure you had no intention of disturbing me, but frankly it is disturbing. The real question is - why doesn't it disturb you?

Logged

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Again. God's highest priority is a relationship, conversation, fellowship with His children.

Conversation? Conversation is not the same as a monologue (which is what prayer is). Conversation is interactive, one party says something and the other party replies.

Even more, is that the best god can come up with for a conversation (having you beg for all the things you need and then shut you up because he is going to ignore all you asked for anyway)? ... pathetic.

I don't know if you have children, or have been around parents, but the human experience is much the same. You don't give your kids all the candy they ask for, the rides they want to go on, or all your money. You decide what is best for their long term.

Ooo... Don't go there pretending to know what the deal is with having children, unless YOU yourself have children of your own. I do have 3 children, and I have meaningful conversations with them. When they ask me for something that I don't think will be good for them, I explain to them why I'm not giving them what they asked for. Conversely, if there's something I know they NEED, I do NOT make them ask for it so that I can then give it to them. Forcing them to ask in that type of situations would not only be a waste of time, it's also cruel, especially if what they are asking for is, for example, help to take them away from a dangerous situation. What kind of sadistic parent do you have to be to make them go through that kind of unnecessary suffering?

SW, let's assume that you are right and god arranged all that stuff in the farmer's field to help you out. It was not a life and death situation, just a big hassle to get your wife where you wanted to go. Was the hassle caused by Satan of the creator god?

1) If the hassle was caused by Satan, then god can counteract the actions of Satan. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

2) If the hassle was caused by god, then he can change his mind and fix things that he made go wrong. Why then does god not just heal your wife so you don't have such hassles?

3) Either way, god can change reality around to make things better. For some people, under certain conditions. For other people, he will never make things better, because they have not figured out exactly what god wants. No matter what they do, they will suffer and die horribly. How did you get so lucky as to figure out exactly what god wants?

4) Since you have it figured out, could you please convince god to end world starvation and warfare? And cure children with cancer, diabetes and Down's syndrome? And end all animal cruelty and extinctions?

I'll be watching the news for the big announcements.

So why have you focused on those things instead of the volunteer work you could be doing at your local hospital? Or on your block? Even keyboard work for somebody without fingers. Do you still own a TV? And why?

Change the subject and miss the main issue much? You have no idea what I do or don't do to help my community, and that is not the point here.

You have told us that you are able to have miraculous things happen in your life as a result of your relationship with the creator god. You say that these things happen when you pray for help and let god take over. You say that they are not coincidences and could not happen naturally without intervention from god.

I do not claim any such thing. I live in the real world. My ability to help people is therefore limited-- I have no supernatural godly friends to pull strings, change the world, pre-rearrange farmer's fields, or solve my problems for me.

So, if you indeed have such a relationship with a supernatural being, why not get something done that would help millions of people as opposed to just your family and friends? Why not sincerely pray to god to end all child abuse or cure all senile dementia? Is it because god likes people to suffer, and therefore will not do this? Is it because god is not really very powerful, and cannot do this?

Or do you realize that the helpful things that have happened to you are not miracles at all, and really are statistical coincidences that could happen to anyone, prayer or not? Do you keep track of the hundreds of times you pray and don't get help, or only the handful of times when you pray and things work out for you?

Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme.

Prediction/prophesy: SW will not respond clearly and directly. He will either give a very short non-answer, or give a very long and convoluted incomprehensible non-answer. If I am correct, bow down and worship your new holy messenger, high priestess nogodsforme.

I think you're wrong.

I'm beginning to suspect that SkyWriting is answering everyone's questions, AND with perfect wisdom. It is merely a question of deciphering it - like, Bible Code style or somesuch. But the answers...the answers are there. We must start compiling his responses into some sort of book. I got dibs on the 'Revelation' section.

Logged

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."