Kofi Annan condemns Israeli barrier

Yet another terrible move by Sharon. This controversial West Bank barrier is another restriction on the opressed Palestinian people. The barrier, and
related checkpoints, restricts Palestinians access to schools and medicare. This another step to destroying the hopes for peace. It's a disgrace.

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has described Israel's decision to construct the West Bank security fence as "deeply
counter-productive".

The UN report says that as a result of the partition, Palestinians have lost access to land, hospitals and schools.

Mr Annan said the fences, walls, razor wire and trenches constituted a violation of international law and could jeopardise longer-term prospects for
peace.

The Israelis claim that any Palestinian with a medical problem will be let through the checkpoints but this is hardly the case.

According to the Israeli human rights group B'tselem, there have been at least 38 cases since September 2000 of Palestinians who have died after
medical care was delayed as a result of Israeli restrictions of movement.

Allegations of verbal and physical abuse by Israeli soldiers and border guards, such as the case on the right, are common
This is completely wrong and will not help the threat of Palestinian suicide bombers. Will there never be peace?

It takes 'TWO to tango', pointing out one side is hypocritical at best, and coming from Kofi Annan and the UN.....nuff said!

Seems Kofi Annan and the UN never condemn or say anything condemning the suicide bombings or rarely anything that the Palestinians do.....but they are
persistant to stay on top of condemning Israel?!

How many have and continue to die in Africa and Kofi Annan never say anything?

How many more people in Sudan, Rwanda, and other African countries need to be enslaved before the UN and Kofi Annan condemn and address this issue?

There are atrocites and virtual genicide occur throughout this world, daily, and all Kofi Annan and the UN can address is Israel?!?

Why has no one mentioned Kofi Annan and the UN in respect to this: "UN puts less value on life of Israeli child: envoy"
Link: www.nationalpost.com...

Excerpt: "The Israeli resolution, presented on October 29, was "a mirror of the resolution on Palestinian children" approved earlier by the General
Assembly, Gillerman said.

The resolution dealt with the effects of Palestinian terror on Israeli children, according to Israeli diplomats.

The resolution condemning the suffering inflicted on Palestinian children by Israel's armed forces, made no mention of Israeli children killed in
suicide bombings or other Palestinian attacks."

Kofi Annan and the UN continue to dig that hole of "irrelevance", and it continues to deepen......

regards
seekerof

I agree, Kofi Annon is a joke as is much of the policies of the UN IMO. The fact that they condemn anything that is involved with the US OR Israel is
disgusting. The UN has become the League of Nations and I simply cannot believe that the US is still part of it.

I am against the building of a wall in Israel , but it seems like a option of peace to seperate the two arguing parties. The choices for Israel
without further condemnation are very slim. This is one of very limited ways to try and stop terrorism in its borders. The wall will eventually come
down, it's just a matter of time of when the Palestinians get their collective heads out of their asses. Mainly the PLO.

This thread is not debating the relevance of Kofi Annan or the UN, I simply agree with what he is saying in this instance. however, the suicide
bombings are a not a reason for the Isrealis to take away the rights of the Palestinian people. This will never solve anything. The Palestinian people
are seriously opressed by the Isreali military and government.

Originally posted by earthtone
This thread is not debating the relevance of Kofi Annan or the UN, I simply agree with what he is saying in this instance. however, the suicide
bombings are a not a reason for the Isrealis to take away the rights of the Palestinian people. This will never solve anything. The Palestinian people
are seriously opressed by the Isreali military and government.

Ok I agree to a point. The fact that they are desperate is not the Israeli's fault entirely. Yes the Israeli's do oppress Palestenians. Why? I would
like to think because the Palestenians have commited suicide attacks on a regular basis against the Israeli's.

The reason the palestenians resort to this is because the are living lifes of poverty and feel desperate right now.

Now, the PLO has had more than enough money and donations sent their way to build a infrastructure for the Palestenian people. Have they ever tried to
build a economy, start general programs like garbage pickup, anything? No Hamas is what supplies the hospitals, schools and clothing for most
Palestenians.
The economy for the Palestenians should have been established more than a decade ago, yet Arafat uses the money to buy weapons, to pocket and to
support various terrorist activities.

Now since the PLO has not started anything for the Palestenian people, such as basic education, the people are taught by Hamas who then use the free
education as a way to spread their idealogical views on Israel and the Western world. A form of extremism that will only make life worse for the
Israelis as these children grow up.

The Israeli's are not a well liked people throughout the world and especially the Middle-East were they are the lone democratic state. The Muslims in
the area would like nothing more than to bring Israel down, if for nothing else then to stop the spread of democracy.

The wall is NOT a good idea IMO, but with limited ways they can go about terrorism(Israeli's) I dont really see them having much else of a option.
The peace process between the two sides will never work as long as both leaders are in power. The Palestenians will never want to work with Sharon and
no-one will ever be able to work with Arafat.
What needs to be done is for the people of both of these groups to gather together and demand peace from the governments on both sides. Thats the only
way I ever see peace developing in that area of the world.

Until then the Israeli's really dont have many options and niether do the Palestenians. Sad situation for both sides.

Oh contrar'...
The relevance of Kofi and the UN is of importance when it regards Israel! This alone speaks volumes.
Whether I agree with the "wall" or not...your source is questionable, especially when it regards the historical relevance of Kofi Annan and the UN
to Israel.
Seemingly, the world is against the "wall".....is the world just as united in condemning Palestine for its doings in regards to Israel? Is the UN or
Kofi Annan equal and fair in their baised condemnation?
Oh, yes sir, Kofi and the UN is of relevance.
Did you present the topic to bash Israel over its supposed "oppression" of Palestine, or bashing the wall? If its the wall....you presented it from
the angle of Kofi Annan and the UN........

Makes them relevant to this discussion, I would think....why?

The UN is anti-Israel as is the UN and the EU, etc.........
Hell, it amounts to almost a conspiracy!
Your reasonings regarding the "oppression" of Palestinians is very arguable....and suicide bombings is one of the major reasons for the "wall"
being built, among many others...for which are skewed and layered, as par, with anything the Israelis do.....

Originally posted by Seekerof
Oh contrar'...
.
Seemingly, the world is against the "wall".....is the world just as united in condemning Palestine for its doings in regards to Israel? Is the UN or
Kofi Annan equal and fair in their baised condemnation?
Oh, yes sir, Kofi and the UN is of relevance.
Did you present the topic to bash Israel over its supposed "oppression" of Palestine, or bashing the wall? If its the wall....you presented it from
the angle of Kofi Annan and the UN........

Makes them relevant to this discussion, I would think....why?

Seemingly, the world is against the "wall".....is the world just as united in condemning Palestine for its doings in regards to Israel?

Well I don't think there is any doubt that the world condemns the Palestinian suicide bombers. You have to see that when people lose everyone close
to them and their life has been destroyed then they arw illing to give up their lives. It's sad that peoplechose to do such a wrong thing but itstems
from the oppression that they have recieved at the hands of the Isrealis. I have spoken to many Palestinian people about their terrible experiances
and I'm appauled by the way they are treated. This does not excuse the killing of innocents niether does it excuse Isreals disgusting treatment of
Palestinians. Hopeless?

Did you present the topic to bash Israel over its supposed "oppression" of Palestine, or bashing the wall? If its the wall....you presented it
from the angle of Kofi Annan and the UN........

Makes them relevant to this discussion, I would think....why?

I presented this topic becuase I disagree with this current issue. I am not 'Israeli bashing'. My opinions on Israel have nothing to do with this
because I think it is clear for anyone to see here that Israel is seriously messing up any chances of peace with their oppressive actions. I really
want to see peace between these two nations but I don't think it can happen with Sharon as leader. Hopefully I answered your points...?

Originally posted by Englishman
I dont know how poeple feel sorry for the Palastinian people because for a start they are not people, they hate the U.S, they dont want to get rid of
the extremists groups, so to hell with them.

I think the extremists feel this way. But the average regular Palestenian IMO does like the US, but they are easily overshadowed by everything that is
wrong rather than having the media show what is right in these people.

I dont know how poeple feel sorry for the Palastinian people because for a start they are not people

What the # is wrong with you? These are not people? What are you saying. T

, they hate the U.S,

The U.S have supplied Israel with money and weapons. You wonder why many would dislike the U.S

they dont want to get rid of the extremists groups, so to hell with them.

You are generalizing an entire nation of people you moron. You really think that everyday Palestinian people want the extremists to continue? You
really think that want the people they care about to killed anymore? You really think they want this conflict?

I dont know how poeple feel sorry for the Palastinian people because for a start they are not people

What the # is wrong with you? These are not people? What are you saying. T

I agree.

, they hate the U.S,

The U.S have supplied Israel with money and weapons. You wonder why many would dislike the U.SWe have also supplied money to the Palestenians. They just have not used it to their advantage. The fact that Israel is a lone democratic
country int he middle east seems to warrent our hugh cash flow to them. I would imagine if the Palestenians ever learned to create a democratic state,
they to would recieve more cash.

they dont want to get rid of the extremists groups, so to hell with them.

You are generalizing an entire nation of people you moron. You really think that everyday Palestinian people want the extremists to continue? You
really think that want the people they care about to killed anymore? You really think they want this conflict? I already stated, I agree with this. Let me add this, the voice of these people in Palestine are very rarely heard from as if they do come out
and express their views, they will be looked down upon among the extremists. Which to me, would not be a bright idea if you wanted to be accepted into
the community. The majority is not always the one expressing their views.

earthtone....
Thank you for your cander and giving your points.
I also respect your outlook on what you percieve.
I may not fully agree with what you percieve, I will and do respect it.

I questioned the motives for the article, perhpas a bit unjustly and for that I apologize.
I do not view Kofi and the UN highly in regards to the ongoing Israel-Arab conflict/issue.
My gripe has always been that if one condemns, well in doing so, as with the UN, present not just the condemnation but be fair and just in giving the
condemnation and not just condemn one side, virtually each and every time. Also, in giving the condemnation, why is the UN not helping with solving or
giving solutions? Why is there a seen "double standard" that exists within the UN, in respect to Israel and Palestine?

No, I necessarily don't agree with the wall, nor Sharon, but I definitely don't agree with Arafat, nor what the Palestinians and the Arab world
continues to adhere to and preach: teh full destruction of the state of Israel and Jews.

As for Israel "messing up peace".....why has no one mentioned what Israel is currently doing that is a move towards peace? Why always the issue of
condemnation? "Fresh nod to peace process in Israel?
In interview, deputy prime minister says Sharon is considering unilateral steps."
Link: www.csmonitor.com...

"Sharon: Israel Must Make Land Concessions"
Link: story.news.yahoo.com.../ap/20031127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716

And yet, no word from Arafat on the Palestinian response, per se'.....

Originally posted by Seekerof
earthtone....
Thank you for your cander and giving your points.
I also respect your outlook on what you percieve.
I may not fully agree with what you percieve, I will and do respect it.

I questioned the motives for the article, perhpas a bit unjustly and for that I apologize.
I do not view Kofi and the UN highly in regards to the ongoing Israel-Arab conflict/issue.
My gripe has always been that if one condemns, well in doing so, as with the UN, present not just the condemnation but be fair and just in giving the
condemnation and not just condemn one side, virtually each and every time. Also, in giving the condemnation, why is the UN not helping with solving or
giving solutions? Why is there a seen "double standard" that exists within the UN, in respect to Israel and Palestine? To me the issue of the UN has been like this for years, the fact that they did not support their own resolutions on the Iraq war proves to me that
they are not out to enforce their resolutions. Only to force opinion biased on what the board see's fit to their advantage. This has become more
noticed by the US and others since the vote on the Iraq resolution 1441. The UN has lost credibility with the US and they know that, but with the
continuing criticism of Israel, they are gaining momentum in the eyes of Arab countries. They need to garner support from these countries IMO to prove
to the world that they are legit, which IMO they are not.

No, I necessarily don't agree with the wall, nor Sharon, but I definitely don't agree with Arafat, nor what the Palestinians and the Arab world
continues to adhere to and preach: teh full destruction of the state of Israel and Jews. People usually don't refer to that when they stand up for the Palestinians. Good point, that I shouldve made earlier.

As for Israel "messing up peace".....why has no one mentioned what Israel is currently doing that is a move towards peace? Why always the issue of
condemnation? "Fresh nod to peace process in Israel?
In interview, deputy prime minister says Sharon is considering unilateral steps."
Link: www.csmonitor.com...

"Sharon: Israel Must Make Land Concessions"
Link: story.news.yahoo.com.../ap/20031127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716 Sharon may be making the right steps, but the fact remains no Palestinian will negotiate with him. If they do, that person will quickly be
condemned by the extremists on the Palestinian side.

And yet, no word from Arafat on the Palestinian response, per se'..... I mentioned Arafat, he will never lead his people to peace. The quicker he dies, the better off his people will be.

"Hamas has no plans to ponder truce with Israel at Cairo talks - leader'
Link: www.monitor.bbc.co.uk...Hamas is a terrorist org. They shouldnt even be involved in negotiations with Israel. they should be eradicated.

Peace in the region will come when all sides and "involved" parties really want a lasting peace. When? One can only imagine and wish. As I stated above, I also think it is possible when the people of both sides come together and demand peace from their respective
governments.

Originally posted by Seekerof
earthtone....
Thank you for your cander and giving your points.
I also respect your outlook on what you percieve.
I may not fully agree with what you percieve, I will and do respect it.

Thank you. I appreciate your respect

I questioned the motives for the article, perhpas a bit unjustly and for that I apologize.

I think your questioning was unfair but understandable due to the topic

I do not view Kofi and the UN highly in regards to the ongoing Israel-Arab conflict/issue.

I don't think that anyone world power is taking the neccaserry steps to help the peace.

No, I necessarily don't agree with the wall, nor Sharon, but I definitely don't agree with Arafat, nor what the Palestinians and the Arab world
continues to adhere to and preach: teh full destruction of the state of Israel and Jews.

I do not agree with Arafat either. I do not think that all Palestinians genuinly want the destruction of the Jews. They just don't want to be
persecuted anymore. It's a sad situation, really sad. Everyone needs somone to blame.

As for Israel "messing up peace".....why has no one mentioned what Israel is currently doing that is a move towards peace? Why always the issue of
condemnation?

I don't think they are doing the right things. I honestly think that Sharon isn't planning for peace. Sharon is going to charged with war
crimes charges when he stops being in power.

Peace in the region will come when all sides and "involved" parties really want a lasting peace. When? One can only imagine and wish.

Yet another terrible move by Sharon. This controversial West Bank barrier is another restriction on the opressed Palestinian people. The barrier, and
related checkpoints, restricts Palestinians access to schools and medicare. This another step to destroying the hopes for peace. It's a disgrace.

Originally posted by earthtone
…. however, the suicide bombings are a not a reason for the Isrealis to take away the rights of the Palestinian people. This will never solve
anything. The Palestinian people are seriously opressed by the Isreali military and government.

All these measures you talk about, the security fence, the checkpoints, are a direct result of terrorism. Yes, they are hard on the Palestinian-Arabs,
but you can’t really expect the Israelis to just accept their citizens being murdered either.

I think it’s odd that the feature of Israeli security that draws the most criticism is the security fence, yet that’s also the most non-violent. For a
fraction of the cost, Israel could just bomb the crap out of them. That they choose instead to build a very expensive barrier that doesn’t
kill anyone in my opinion speaks volumes about their character.

Originally posted by earthtone I don't think that anyone world power is taking the neccaserry steps to help the peace.

The problem is not that nobody is taking necessary steps for peace, the problem is that those pushing for war are more effective.

Take Hamas, for example. They are a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That’s not exaggeration, they say this openly. At
the same time, Hamas pays for social services that the Palestinian-Authority doesn’t. They provide food to the poor, build hospitals, and essentially
behave like the government that the Palestinian-Authority (the ones that are supposed to be the government) refuses to be.

When the Israelis (aided by the U.S. or the Egyptians or whoever) negotiate peace, they negotiate with Arafat, the head of the Palestinian-Authority
which used to be the PLO. That’s a terrorist organization that’s a rival to Hamas for power. Hamas doesn’t feel bound by any negotiation
the PA agrees to, so when the peace talks are going good, they just step up the terror to derail it.

That’s just explaining the dynamics of two terrorist organizations without even touching on the internal politics and duplicity involved. When you
realize there are more than a dozen active terrorist organizations working among the Palestinians, you begin to get a picture of how complex it
is.

No, I necessarily don't agree with the wall, nor Sharon, but I definitely don't agree with Arafat, nor what the Palestinians and the Arab world
continues to adhere to and preach: teh full destruction of the state of Israel and Jews.

Originally posted by earthtone I do not agree with Arafat either. I do not think that all Palestinians genuinly want the destruction of the Jews. They just don't want to be
persecuted anymore. It's a sad situation, really sad. Everyone needs somone to blame.

A lot of them do, but it’s not their fault. The Palestinian-Arabs live under a constant barrage of propaganda from their television to their political
leaders, even their schools and their Mosques telling them that all their problems are the fault of Israel, and that if only enough people “martyr”
themselves in killing Israelis, Israel will go away and so will their problems. The truth is that their real problems are their own corrupt government
(Arafat runs the PA like a mafia-style don) and a handful of militants that keep the fighting going. If it were not for those, they would have had
independence and peace a long time ago.

Originally posted by earthtone I don't think they are doing the right things. I honestly think that Sharon isn't planning for peace. Sharon is going to charged with war
crimes charges when he stops being in power.

Sharon is not a war criminal. He is a hard-liner who favors military solutions, but he does want peace.

Sharon was elected because the Israelis felt betrayed at the collapse of the Oslo peace process. The Israelis gave huge concessions, recognized the
PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian-Arabic people, granted complete autonomy in large areas, provided funding to help the Palestinian-Arabs
build infrastructure, provided weapons and training for the Palestinian-Arab security force…all in exchange for the promise that Arafat would crack
down on terrorism. Only Arafat didn’t, terrorism actually doubled.

Originally posted by earthtone
Well I don't think there is any doubt that the world condemns the Palestinian suicide bombers. You have to see that when people lose everyone close
to them and their life has been destroyed then they arw illing to give up their lives.

Let’s put the violence in perspective. As bad as it is, for both Israelis and Palestinian-Arabs, the odds of dying as a direct result of the conflict
are only slightly higher than that of dying in an automobile accident. The bog problems are psychological, you can take steps to protect yourself
against dying in a car crash,

Originally posted by earthtone
It's sad that peoplechose to do such a wrong thing but itstems from the oppression that they have recieved at the hands of the Isrealis. I have
spoken to many Palestinian people about their terrible experiances and I'm appauled by the way they are treated. This does not excuse the killing of
innocents niether does it excuse Isreals disgusting treatment of Palestinians. Hopeless?

To put the “oppression” in perspective, the standard of living for Palestinian-Arabs in the disputed territories is about the same as for Arabs living
in any other Arab country, it was far above average before the start of the intifada. . Don’t get me wrong, that still leaves a lot of room for
improvement, but it’s not “oppression” these people are fighting. The honest truth is that their standard of living has increased light-years since
the days of Jordanian rule.

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