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Ok, I won’t mention the valets and ventless dryer issue.
But how about that horrible traffic today after Fleet week? I don’t know about you, but there was solid bumper to bumper traffic starting from Bush and Kearny and slowly crawled it’s way down Bush, across Market and up First st. straight to 1Rincon and the Bay Bridge onramp. I started to think of the previous comments about the potential traffic problem around the onramp and it’s true, during busy hours it can be a nightmare leading up to onramp and I can’t help but think how miserable it will be for those living at 1Rincon that want some peace and quiet(and clean air!). That traffic lasted a good 2-3 hours during the evening…
[Editor’s Note: Just for the record, we’re not suggesting valets and ventless dryers are off limits. We just want to make sure that readers that might enjoy the discussion, but aren’t necessarily interested in One Rincon Hill, consider taking a peek at the comments.]

As discussed previously, the people who will be living anywhere in the Rincon area do not (or should not) want peace and quiet. Well, they do, but they’re willing to surrender it in exchange for the location’s proximity to many of the lovely things of that corner of SF; walking to the ballpark, walking to the bars, walking to the restaurants, walking to shopping, walking to work, etc, etc, etc.

Glad you mentioned that Anon….because early last night as I was walking from the Westfield shopping center to my current apt. near Beale and Folsom past the parade of cars trying futilely to hussle home across the Bay Bridge, I thought to myself, “What a relief. I can just walk past all of this crap, get into the elevator, go upstairs and relax in my living room and watch a little Sunday Night football while those commuters tear their hair out.”
And that’s exactly what I’ll be doing in 2008 when I walk home to my condo unit at 1Rincon. And noise? What noise? I didn’t hear a thing last night, and I’m only on the 9th floor right now. Imagine how quiet it will at over 20 stories in a modern building?
That traffic/noise discussion is a total red herring. The ventless issue is annoying, yes, but I’ll get over it. And the valet is certainly a foreign concept to me, but again, I’ll live. And so will my neighbors.

LOL…..You got to love the bite of the comments that show up whenever the 1Rincon topic comes up. Sounds like the last poster has got some serious anger management issues.
It’s a good thing that we’re only talking about a new condo development, and not something important, like politics.

It’s interesting that the topic of traffic congestion only relates to 1Rincon. I walked by the Infinity last night around 5:30 and it was an absolute zoo on the streets that immediately border the project. And it wasn’t just last night, because of Fleet Week. I see that exact traffic congestion all the time on the weekends. There is absolutely no way that an owner living in the Infinity would have been able to get his or her car out of there last night. No way, no how.
So I guess the bigger question is, why even develop the Rincon Hill/Transbay neighborhood at all if the traffic congestion problem is so pervasive? It’s clearly not isolated on the 1Rincon project (it will also affect the cleared projects that have not yet started construction). I’m willing to give the presumably very intelligent urban planners the benefit of the doubt on that topic, but I’ve yet to see it articulated very well.

Most of the developments in the Rincon area has traffic. So does the Met, Brideview, Avalon etc… But only one is within a few feet from a major freeway onramp. I think that’s why 1Rincon gets so much negative attention…
Now here’s an interesting comment my wife brought up to me as we were driving up to the 1st St onramp yesterday evening (and yes, there was a lot of traffic!).
Forward to 2008 – Let’s say a visitor from out of town, not familiar with SF goes to 1Rincon to see a friend at night. They exit off the bridge, find their way to 1st St., and are racing up first street to 1Rincon. Now instead of veering left into the complex, they go straight onto the onramp thinking it was the entrance to the tower. Before they realize it, they’re on the bridge heading to Oakland!
It’s a comical thought. But how often you think something like this could happen? Especially for folks driving to 1Rincon for the first time?

What people haven’t figured out is that every where you look, the developer is cutting corners, so as to cause increased expenses for the residents and more profit to the developer. To cram more spaces into the building at no cost to the developer, he uses “valet” parking. The residents pay for the employees, their insurance etc. Cut out the vents for the dryers: no problem: the residents can pay extra for, and suffer with, those dryers.
When you move in and everywhere you turn, such corners have been cut and you have to pay more as a result, you’ll realize that, sure the valet is annoying and you have to pay, and the same for the dryers, but the other 100 things that you didn’t think of but the developer cut corners on will add up and you’ll just be sick and tired of all of it.

Traffic in S.Beach can be tough some days, no question, but those savvy enough can find the ‘secret’ ways around. Missing the worst of the clogged arteries. Those living in the ClockTower have always found a way to deal effectively with it as I did when I lived there. My friend at 200 Brannan’s goal is to park her car every Friday and not take it out until Monday. She walks everywhere and pretty much is a 15 minute walk in any direction from everything she wants to do in the city.

I predict that in 5-10 years, SOMA will begin to resemble Manhattan in many ways (population density, traffic, noise, etc.). But like 49Giants said, don’t buy there if you’re not looking for that type of lifestyle. Plenty of other neighborhoods in the city where you get peace and quiet and your money goes farther.

Finally someone with some street cred has spoken up. Thanks, “Soma res for 9 years” for your perspective. I often wonder if many of the bashers on this topic are residents of Walnut Creek, Danville, Alamo, Lafayette, etc., who can’t imagine that anyone would want to live their life different or have different priorities than they do. It probably goes something like, “If you don’t have the single-family, 2 story, 2 car garage home on the treelined street out in some suburb that is 1.5 hour commute each way to where you work, then you’re just plain nuts.”
Either that, or it’s a bunch of frustrated SF renters that are pissed off that they can’t buy something decent in the city and want to vent their frustration by bashing all of these unaffordable new condo developments. As for the latter, hey, I’m right there with you, but I also know how to keep some perspective on the topic.

Note to Editor: I’m not sure if this is really up your alley or not, but maybe it would help further this heated traffic related discussion if you could get an official line/comment, whether from the city’s planning commission, or a private think-tank working on the redevelopment project, about how they view this issue both in the short-term and long-term.
I’m sure many of your readers would love to hear what the urban planners really think about all this, assuming that they’ve thought about it at all.

Tipster makes a good point about developers cutting corners to make more money. By cutting out the deeded parking spaces, and instead cramming in more units, the developer is just forwarding the cost of the Valet services to the home buyers. It’s a great business move, but bad for the home owners who have to pay the increased HOA cost.

The only fault with Tipster’s point is that the same statment can be made in almost any context in any part of this country. Whether its urban high-rise devlopers in SF or NYC or single-family home builders out in BFE. These guys cut corners to maximize profit, that’s what they do. That’s the business model. So you’re not really saying anything that’s specific to Rincon Hill or any of its new developments. Your comment is really relevant for the entire business of making money from being involved in the building and selling of residential real estate on a mass scale, whether you’re Urban West Associates (the 1Rincon developer), Tishman Speyer (the Infinity developer), Del Webb or Pulte Homes.
It’s all a racket, and you just have to know how to navigate the terrain.

The underlying issue is that new residential towers are being built in what is a main conduit for traffic to and from the freeway. That doesn’t seem wise either from the point of view of the residents of the area or for those trying to fight their way onto the Bay Bridge. Like “Citizens for Less Traffic” I’d be really interested in knowing what thought, if any, planners have given to this.
As for the folks who want to walk from their condo, I’m all for that. In fact, for me, it’s one of the big positives of living “downtown”. But I just don’t see what’s so attractive about walking in an area of freeway onramps.

…Amen Corner’s point gets me back to my original point because, whether it’s the planned landscaping and streetscaping in the area, a reformulation of the traffic pattern through future infrastructure changes, or a combination of both, the whole area, not just 1Rincon, is going to be impacted by the bottlenecking of traffic at the Bay Bridge on/off-ramps. I know of at least two other high-rise developments that will be right next to 1Rincon and the fact that 1Rincon is the closest to the 80-on-ramp, as opposed to a high-rise that is a half a block away, is not enough of a difference in locale to justify not having worked through the issue when planning for the area.
I think the real solution would have been to build a tunnel through the bottom of the hill itself that acts as a conduit for traffic both entering and exiting the bridge. Don’t know if that’s even geologically feasible, but keeping the cars underground would have gone a long way to eliminating the problem.

The whole Rincon area can be heavy with traffic. But those that say the traffic around the Infinity is the same as 1Rincon are misguided.
Infinity may have heavy traffic, but the traffic near 1Rincon is like the end of a FUNNEL. All the traffic from downtown funnels to Harrison and/or 1st, which then funnels into the onramp which is exactly where 1Rincon is. Walking around heaving traffic not not that bad(SF is a major city), but walking around where thousands of cars funnel into a very busy freeway onramp is another thing. Nothing funnels INTO Infinity. It’s just general traffic. The closest onramp to Infinity is 4 blocks away(where 1Rincon is).
Also consider Infinity is almost 2 blocks from the bridge while 1Rincon is within 20 feet of the bridge. The noise itself is enough to discourage walking in that area.
I think SF is a great walking city, it’s just not great to walk near any kind of freeway or onramp.

for walkers, you’d have to actually cross the street at the on-ramp. personally as a pedestrian, i find it stressful to cross on/off ramps to highways, have to be 10x more careful at those intersections. if the buildings were on the downtown side of the ramp, it’d be much better.

How is this “funneling theory” (which incidentally is a completely bogus justification for, again, trying to single out one development) relevant to a person that is comfortably sitting in their 30th floor condo relaxing, watching TV, what have you?
My point about the Infinity and the traffic congestion in the area was that the impact on the Infinity owner’s ingress and egress from the building with a car is exactly the same as at the 1Rinconn. Everything else is irrelevant. Who cares about where the on-ramp is located. It’s the traffic itself that is the problem.
And as to your comment that my comments were misguided. No, they’re not, because I live 2 blocks from the Infinity and there is absolutely no difference between a parking lot of cars waiting to get on the bridge that are right next to the on-ramp versus a parking lot of cars surrounding the Infinity on all sides and waiting to get “to” the on-ramp.
So unless InfinityFan actually lives in the area and sees what I see day in and day out, it’s hard to agree with his/her conclusion. Another thing that many people are having a hard time getting their heads around is the fact that the entire area, including the section of Rincon Hill where 1st and Harrison intersect, is going to be redone in terms of streetscape and landscape. Yes, there will always be an on-ramp to the Bay Bridge at that intersection, but the intersection itself and the area right around 1Rincon, aside from the parking lot of cars that I referred to that will invariably form, is going to look nothing like it does right now. Right now it looks like an armpit. Try to use just a little imagination. It’s not that difficult a concept.

I think most of us would agree that walking around any kind of freeway on/off-ramp would be unpleasant. However, has anyone considerend that the time spent literally “walking” around the ramp would be 1-2 minutes at the most? Last time I checked, you are able to cross streets and keep moving in the direction that you intend to go. Call me crazy, but I think that’s why they call it “walking” as opposed to somethign obscure like “standing.”
Now, granted if there are pedestrians out there that are considering walking in a circle around the on/off-ramp as a way of taking a leisurely stroll around the neighborhood, I would highly advise that you look elsewhere for a residence. 1Rincon is not for you.
However, for those of us non-circle walkers, I would suggest any of the following daring and dangerous walks that would originate from the building. You could turn right at the corner, walk east down Harrison street towards the Embarcadero. You could cross the street and walk directly down 1st street and into downtown. Or, you could even turn left, walk down Harrison to Second and turn left again to walk down to AT&T Park.
I know all of those options present some pretty heavy risks and might be quite an unpleasant experience for some, but god willing, you should be able to make it to your intended destination unscathed.
God speed!

My point about the Infinity and the traffic congestion in the area was that the impact on the Infinity owner’s ingress and egress from the building with a car is exactly the same as at the 1Rinconn. Everything else is irrelevant. Who cares about where the on-ramp is located. It’s the traffic itself that is the problem.

That’s just makes no sense on any level. I live at 2nd and Folsom. Sometimes it’s hard to get into and out of my garage (when traffic is backed up for blocks). But right at the onramp, there’s almost ALWAYS traffic. It just makes sense.
About the area being redone, NONE of plans I have seen show a major reworking of the traffic patterns. In fact, they are going to REDUCE lanes around the Infinity and Folsom (I believe). See http://www.sfgov.org/site/planning_index.asp?id=24894

on the funneling theory, i think the difference is if you’re approaching your home from the downtown direction (say you were returning from the richmond district), and everyone was trying to get on the bay bridge. those last 4 blocks up the hill are gonna be jammed, and while you’re just going to 1rincon, you’ll still be standing in line with teh bay bridge folks.

Oh my gosh? Are you serious? You say “who cares where the onramp is”. Well seems 90% of the bloggers here agree they rather NOT walk around a major freeway onramp. Aren’t we talking about the “walkability” of the Rincon area in general? Not about who is sitting in their condo. I totally agree when you’re sitting 30 stories up, you could care less about the traffic. The most of the posts here are about TRAFFIC and the impact of putting these towers in the Rincon area.
And the “funneling theory” has nothing to do with the development. I just wanted to point out that cars from all around downtown SF will “funnel” towards a onramp, ANY onramp if they want to leave SF. 1Rincon is right in front of a freeway onramp. So that’s where cars “funnel” to – the ONRAMP. This is nothing against the development or the building, it’s the location.
And since we’re talking about walking around SF, I’d rather walk around Infinity where they have the new Gap building, cafes, restaurants like Palomino, Gordon Biersch, all the stores in Hills Plaza and the wonderful Embarcadero and Bay, all within a block from Infinity.
What’s a block from 1Rincon?? Last time I checked, there’s a great gas station! Yippee!!

I don’t think that’s right because the far left lane of 1st between Folsom and Harrison is going to be dedicated for use by persons turining left onto Harrison and residents of 1Rincon. Furthermore, that lane is separate by more than white paint, which means that cars trying to get on the on-ramp will not have the ability to use it to cut over.
All we’re really talking about here is whether or not someone is bothered by having to walk by the on-ramp to the Bay Bridge for 1 minute and I guarantee you, that answer will always be that more people will want to live in the building than there are condos available to live (that’s what you call demand). For those that keep saying, “I would never live in a condo near a freeway on-ramp”, that just means that you won’t be in the group that I’m referring to, plain and simple. But please do invite me to your single family home in Walnut Creek. I do so love getting out to the country.

Agree with Mike, there are no solid plans to redo the area. I believe the developer is in charge of developing the sidewalk area in front of their buildings. That’s it.
And yes, I’ve heard they may reduce lanes so that will just impact the traffic to the onramp so much more.

I used to live in the Clocktower building about 8 years ago. The traffic was so bad some times I had to park my car on the street a couple of blocks away and walk home with my groceries and retrive my car later that night. Then you have to listen to the honking and the people shouting at each other in the gridlock as you are walking home. Listen to the people who used to live there! This traffic problem is a red flag!

I’m having a hard time be able to tell why it is that “InfinityFan” has a preference for the Infinity.
I’m also curious to know whether InfinityFan is visually impaired because I looked at the Infinity at the same time I was looking at 1Rincon and the floorplans, finishings, applicances and model at the sales office were so average, I couldn’t believe it.
But I guess with that “premo” location away from the on-ramp, the developers really didn’t need to take the time to worry about little details like, you know, the actual quality of the condo unit. I personally could care less about the quality of the unit itself, because if it’s 1 block from Gordon Biersch, that’s enough for me. I don’t even know if I would even sleep in my unit at the Infinity, I might just sleep out on the street in front of it so that I can really take in how great the location is. I see some of our homeless friends in the area currently feel that same as InfinityFan and do so regularly.

Anonymous, why slam people from Walnut Creek? What have they done to you?
The critics of the onramp condos could very well be people living in other parts of SF where there isn’t an onramp in their front yard, which is just about everywhere in SF!

Anonymous, are you saying 1Rincon’s location is better than Infinity’s? If it is, I’d like to see how many people agree with you. You must have not bought a lot of properties before since you believe location is not important when buying a million dollar property.
Got a million? Buy a tiny condo 20 ft. from a major freeway with endless gridlock and noise. Great business move. Oh yeah, didn’t someone mention a gas station across the street?

Speaking of the homeless people, don’t they sometimes panhandle near the onramp and hang out at the gas station begging for coins and trying to wash your windows?
Maybe they’ll decide to panhandle in front on 1Rincon. Careful who you give your keys to at the Valet counter 😉

Of course not, that’s the only thing, and I mean literally the only thing that Infinity has going for it is its location. The building and the condo’s themselves, however, are head and shoulders above the Infinity, that’s what I was saying.
And as to location, location, location, yes, that extra two blocks to the Embarcadero will definitely be rough. And right now, there are many more homeless hanging around by the Infinity sales office than around 1Rincon now that the homeless shelter at Fremot and Harrison has been closed and will soon be demolished in favor of another residential project.
This is really great, it’s like saying a Picasso is better than a Monet. No one will ever be proven right or wrong, that’s the beauty of the discussion.

My point didn’t really related specifically to people from Walnut Creek. I have friends from that part of the Bay Area and they are great. My point really had to do with the fact that this is a heterogenous society, thank god, and therefore not everyone shares a single opinion regarding where they want to live and what is most important to them in terms of what they want out of their place of residence.

Just out of curiosity, why does a location have to be defended at all? Only demand for living in the building will indicate how important its specific location at the top of the hill will be and the current data suggest that it’s not really an issue at all.
Also, since someone brought up the Infinity, why is it that we have heard absolutely nothing regarding it’s reservation numbers? If they were actually good, wouldn’t they be worth bragging about? Seems suspect to me.

Judging the quality of these 2 building before they are done is silly. You cannot 100% base your judgement on the model home alone. Both developer has built fabulous buildings before.
And you really can’t really determine how great a property is for a few years when the sales center and model homes are long gone. It is then when the value of the property will shine (or not). And most agree location is quite important in real estate. Both buildings will be very high end. And those at Infinity that spend a little more to upgrade their units will be worth just as much as any luxury property in SF, especially if the Folsom corridor is developed as they said it will…

SF Living: I lost track counting the “if”s” used in your post, but your overall point is well taken and I think that it’s safe to say that if the “if’s” prove out, the value of the condos in the Rincon Hill area, including 1Rincon Hill, will most certainly be elevated.

I don’t think Tishman Speyer, Arquitectonica and the rest of the group is as obsessed with reservation numbers as are the folks at 1Rincon. The developer at 1Rincon didn’t have solid financing in place and had to sell a certain number to lock down financing.
I’ve heard Tishman Speyer didn’t even need financing as they are big enough to build without help. I don’t think they even worry about reservation numbers. They’ve built enough highrises around the world to know what they are doing…

That’s all true about Tishman Speyer and its financing needs, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t care about their reservation numbers just because they’re a large corporation. They’re still running a business and want to know that they will actually turn a profit, so you’re logic is flawed there.

This discussion is very interesting but at the end of the day real estate is priced by the market. One Rincon is almost all sold out and there has not been any price reductions. Its location and valet parking obvsiously have not had a great effect on its value.

There’s 45 units still available 1Rincon. I checked today. And that doesn’t include the townhomes, which are mostly unsold.
1Rincon was a great deal if you got in early. And those that did get in early would be foolish to cancel.
But those that got in later i.e. $900-$1100/SqFt, well they should be nervous…

I generally agree with the last comment, particularly since I got in at around $800/sqft. But I don’t agree that the persons that got in at 900-1100 should nervous. It all depends on their outlook. It seems a lot of the nay sayers operate on the premise that the 1Rincon buyers are looking to see just as soon as they can. Real estate values come and go in cycles and if you assume a 5-7 year outlook, even the 900-1100 players will make out just fine, trust me on that one.
It also depends on where interest rates are at the time of sale. For instance, that’s what makes the 1Rincon buy such a smart play in my view. You lock your purchase price when interest rates are high but likely will be closing on the home mid-2–8 when interest rates are down again. It’s a win-win situation.

I bought at Infinity. I wouldn’t say they’re not worry, but they certainly aren’t as obsessed as 1Rincon which seems to publish numbers on an almost daily basis.
2-3 months ago 1Rincon said they had 20+ units available, now it’s 60ish (45 + dozen or so townhomes). Why are their numbers increasing?

It’s probably just a difference in marketing philosophy. Infinity probably doesn’t see the reservation numbers as a marketing tool, whereas 1Rincon does. I don’t read too much into the numbers in any case because each project’s ultimate success or failure as an investment will be determined long after the respective sales offices have folded their tents.
The rest of this is just a lot of hot air being passed back and forth in cyberspace. It is entertaining, however.

The Infinity doesn’t see reservation numbers as a marketing tool for a bloody good reason!! The numbers are terrible. If you’re not selling nearly as briskly as your neighbor, you wouldn’t advertise the fact! And don’t think the developer and the s&m folks aren’t sweatin’ it. Of course they are.

C’mon now, I’m a 1Rincon buyer, but I can still be objective enough to say that I haven’t heard anything, positive or negative, about the Infinity numbers so I can’t really draw a conclusion one way or the other.
I’m curious, how do you know the numbers are terrible?
One thing that struck me as strange (and I noticed this because I walk by the building every day), and possibly as a sign that things might not be going all that well, is that the builder was so quick to start putting up the glass facade on the tower’s concrete skeleton even though they haven’t even come close to capping the tower. I started thinking maybe they decided to do that in attempt to make the tower more visually appealing and thereby drawn in more potential buyers to the sales center?

Nope, Infinity’s numbers are fine. So far, they’ve reserved well over 225 units and sold both their penthouses at 5 million a pop.
They just don’t release numbers as often, and yes some of their units in the later release are high so naturally sales will be slower than 1Rincon, which practically gave some units away…

Re: “a sign that things might not be going all that well, is that the builder was so quick to start putting up the glass facade on the tower’s concrete skeleton even though they haven’t even come close to capping the tower.”
From the last One Rincon newsletter: “On Oct. 1, installation of the glass curtainwall will begin.”

Isn’t 1Rincon starting to install glass panels as well?
Unless we’re the construction company or the developer, we shouldn’t draw conclusions on the glass installation. They may very well have other reasons (like it’s on their schedule) than a marketing ploy…

The installation of the glass curtain wall on the Infinity started when the construction reached a certain height and will follow as the building moves up. This is planned and will also happen at 1 Rincon. It has nothing to do with marketing. It allows the interior of the building to be completed simultaneously. It will also allow people on the lower floors to move in months before people on the upper floors.

I hate to say this, but what the hell… I wonder if pedestrian traffic support will have to resort to Las Vegas like solutions to foot traffc in potentially high vehicle traffic areas around the towers (including 45 Lansing I beleive). I’m not saying we need outdoor escalators and bridged walkways like on Las Vegas Blvd and the actual street blocked off to foot traffic, but I would think some type of pedestrian assistance (maybe something similar to the Embarcadero Center walkways) would be needed in such a high vehicle traffic area…

Fans and buyers of 1Rincon sure are emotional and illogical when it comes to defending their purchase.
Makes me think that all those critics out there are just saying what their saying to ruffle their feather and provoke some outrageous comments, like the person how said they rather be homeless than live in Infinity. Or the one that attacks suburbia like Walnut Creek or renters for no good reason.
Give me a break! How low can you guys go?

To “This is really funny’s” point, I vaguely remember one poster on an earlier 1Rincon blog even admitting that he specifically made outrageous comments solely to get a rise out of the buyers so I think you are right on.
There’s really no other logical explanation for those comments other than to provoke a reaction. It’s not like they are based in any proven logic.

It’s probably also easier to pick on 1Rincon since it has received 10 times the amount of attention that any of the other developments in the area (Watermark, Infinity, Lansing, etc.) have received. Frankly, if it weren’t for the fact that I walked past the Infinity when it was first going up, I would have never even known about it.
Face it, 1Rincon has had a bull’s eye painted on it given the mountain of press and attention that is has received.

I think what generates the interest in 1Rincon Hill, at least for me is the great building on the jaw droppingly bad location and the sense that this may be a sign of some kind of peak (kind of like pets.com at $100 or Amazon at $600).

I think if nothing were done whatsoever to the landscaping and streetscaping surrounding 1Rincon, then Mike would be correct. But clearly that will not be the case. The presence of a large amount of cars trying to get onto the bridge, by itself, is not enough call the area a bad location. It’s how the area immediately surrounding the building is developed that will determine whether the location is good or bad. It also depends on which side of the building a person lives. If you live on any side that is opposite the bridge and are on a relatively high floor, you should have no issues whatsoever with the location. As far as the traffic congestion issue goes, you will be in no different a position than any other resident of the area.
If you ask me, a “jaw droppingly” bad location is any residence within 5 block radius of the ballpark. That place is an absolute zoo during the baseball season and I would do anything to not have to pass through that part of town when a game is going on.

I think Mike said “jaw droppingly” bad location because as many people has said, it’s 20 feet from a major freeway onramp with constant traffic and noise, and a gas station across the street that attracts the homeless.
So it’s not the Rincon area that is bad, but specifically the location of 1Rincon that is “jaw droppingly” bad.

Just for fun, try thinking of a worse location in SF for a building. Personally, I can’t think of one (seriously). Maybe some bombed out area in Hunter’s Point, but those areas could change. The onramp to the busiest bridge in the US isn’t moving anytime soon.

Yeah Lennar is developing Hunters Point, so yes that place will change for the better.
Maybe Sunnydale or Bayview? Well those places can be developed as well and there’s no traffic gridlock there.
Hmmm… well, I guess 1Rincon wins out as the worst location in SF.

I love it, it’s like poking a stick at an animal to see if you can get it to hiss at you.
However, the Hunter’s Point comment may have gone a bit far. I don’t think even the 1Rincon buyers are going to fall for something that obvious.

“I think Mike said “jaw droppingly” bad location because as many people has said, it’s 20 feet from a major freeway onramp with constant traffic and noise, and a gas station across the street that attracts the homeless.”
Well, in my opinion a “jaw droppingly” location is any location that is within 5 blocks of the ball park. Watching a bunch of drunk Giants fans stumble around outside of condo and a parking lot of cars is not my idea of a good time, and that will be much more of an annoyance during baseball season than 1st and Harrison during the rush hour between 5-7.
Unequivocally, Mission Bay is an absolutely horrible location to live in from March – October. Trust me, I know, because I’ve developed some pretty involved strategies for avoiding that part of town when a home game is being played.

Ok ok, Hunters Pt may be a stretch (though it is being developed).
But can anyone out there think of a worst location for a luxury highrise development in San Francisco?? We’d really really like to hear it!
(and this is nothing against 1Rincon buyers so no hissing)

I can offer a few.
Anything west of of Divisadero would be horrible. The weather is awful on the west side of the city compared to the east side.
The location where the Watermark is built….
The location where the Metropolitan is built (it’s down the hill from 1Rincon)…..
The location where Arterra is being built (in fact, any of those condos over by the ballpark)…
Should I continue?

Hmmm, actually I should’ve clarified, a development at $900-1100/SqFt and up so Arterra doesn’t really qualify.
The Met? Well that’s almost the same as 1Rincon so that’s a draw.
Watermark? True the building IS ugly, but at least there’s no 24 hr traffic in that area (and no onramp). It’s pretty quiet most of the time.
West of Divisadero?? Wow, that’s like more than half the city! So if they built a high rise ANYWHERE west of divisadero, it’s worst than 1Rincon? Parts of Marina, Presidio, Golden Gate park, Twin Peaks? All those locations are worst that 1Rincon?? Sorry, that theory just doesn’t hold water… And there’s no major freeway onramp West of Divisadero.

“West of Divisadero?? Wow, that’s like more than half the city! So if they built a high rise ANYWHERE west of divisadero, it’s worst than 1Rincon? Parts of Marina, Presidio, Golden Gate park, Twin Peaks? All those locations are worst that 1Rincon?? Sorry, that theory just doesn’t hold water… And there’s no major freeway onramp West of Divisadero.”
Thank you, you just made my point. You’ve implied with the quote above that the 1st priority every single buyer in the downtown section of an urban city like SFO will put on their list is being far away from the onramp to the Bay Bridge.
THAT….just doesn’t hold water. Maybe some of us prefer to live in a sunnier part of the city and therefore want nothing to do with the entire west side of the city where, during the summer, it’s cold and foggy and miserable. Did it ever occur to you that not everyone has the same priorities that you have?

“The location where the Watermark is built….”
The Watermark has its issues – ugly looking building and the likely non-appearance of the intended Bryant St Pier development – but why is it a bad location? Seems like it’s a little further away from the ballpark than most south-of-the-freeway developments, and it doesn’t suffer from being on the route to or at a major onramp.

you’re right…they’re not the HAVE NOT’s, more like the “hey, here is my check…WHAT no more units left??? WTF” god, i’m gonna love looking DOWN at all those hostile responders, ops i meant drivers stuck in traffic waiting to cross the bridge wondering why the hell didn’t they buy in that tower.

i don’t care, i’m still going to smile and waive at all those nice people stuck in traffic as i cross Harrison street to go into my condo, where i’ll change into something more relaxing, turn on the tv, and enjoy a nice glass of wine, while they’re just getting onto the bride. damn, i’m sorry………

I would argue that some of the condo lofts in the SOMA area near the 101 freeway onramp are much worse a location than where the 1Rincon tower is located. Noone seems to be keyed into the fact that 1Rincon is a 3 blocks to the Embarcadero, 4 blocks to the Financial District and 5 blocks to the ball park.
The fact that, from where the lobbly level will be located, there will be a hidden (and it will be hidden by all the landscaping that will be done) onramp at least 75 feet below, is just totally irrelevant.
The ranting 1Rincon bashers on this site are doing a fantastic job of getting the goat of many of the 1Rincon fans and that is truly the funniest part about it. I just don’t understand why they keep taking the bait.

“i don’t care, i’m still going to smile and waive at all those nice people stuck in traffic as i cross Harrison street to go into my condo, where i’ll change into something more relaxing, turn on the tv, and enjoy a nice glass of wine, while they’re just getting onto the bride. damn, i’m sorry………”
I tried making that very point on Sunday (when I actually did walk past all of the Fleet Week traffic involved in that mass exodus from the city and went straight upstairs to my Rincon Hill apt. to relax while all the departing drivers were tearing their hair out. But apparently to some, that’s not a big enough perk to overcome the dreaded…..dun, dun, dun……..BAY BRIDGE ONRAMP!!! OH NOOOO!
Please.

Wow, the 1Rincon defenders are back out hacking trying to defend their little freeway onramp development! 🙂
I don’t think the building itself has many detractors. It will be very nice, but seems the many negative points brought up (valet, noise, pollution, ventless dryers, onramp, location, traffic, traffic, and oh yeah traffic) has the buyers going a bit loony (and nervous)…

Sorry folks, but we’re going to do our best to squash the whole “Have” versus “Have Not” uprising. As a general rule of thumb, questioning any building’s location, or debating its merits, is fair game and extremely relevant to the discussion. This is real estate after all.
And to echo a previous commenter: “The ranting 1Rincon bashers on this site are doing a fantastic job of getting the goat of many of the 1Rincon fans and that is truly the funniest part about it. I just don’t understand why they keep taking the bait.” We really couldn’t have put it any better ourselves.

Well, I think if anyone makes a bad million dollar investment (1Rincon), they’ll at least try to defend themselves so they won’t look so foolish (until they lose their shirt at least).
But back to real estate, it’s location location location… and 1Rincon has the worst of it.

I bought in 1 Rincon and think this blog is purely entertaining. I don’t really care about all the things people think are negative or I would not have bought in the building. I do however think that most of the people being negative do not own in any of these new highrises. That does not make their position incredibly strong.
Also, if 1 Rincon is the worst location in the city, why didn’t the market price it accordingly? That is a fact that no one seems to realize.

“Well, I think if anyone makes a bad million dollar investment (1Rincon), they’ll at least try to defend themselves so they won’t look so foolish (until they lose their shirt at least).
But back to real estate, it’s location location location… and 1Rincon has the worst of it.”
PLEASE. Are you saying that all the developers and buyers in the Rincon Hill area are wrong with their investments? Hundreds of units have sold for their asking price. The developers have even raised the prices on the last units and they still sell. The market has spoken.

Amen to SocketSite’s comment. It’s all fair game, but let’s get away from the class warefare type language.
Some would argue that real estate is very much like art. And I especially liked the earlier comment, the “market has spoken.” That is something that cannot be debated. But the market probably won’t truly speak until years down the road when the original buyers are entering the resale market.

PLEASE. Are you saying that all the developers and buyers in the Rincon Hill area are wrong with their investments? Hundreds of units have sold for their asking price. The developers have even raised the prices on the last units and they still sell. The market has spoken.
My point exactly. This development has the feel of proof of a top to me. When someone can put a building in a terrible location like that and still sell, it makes me believe things have become untethered to reality. And just because lots and lots of people bought there doesn’t make it a great investment. (see AMZN at $600, or ASKJ at $300).

But there’s a flip side to that argument Mike………there have been plenty of investments in the past that people pooh-poohed as being crazy or “untethered to reality” as you so eloquently put it, and those people later regretted their decision not to get in after the ones that did ended up cleaning up.
I’m not saying that’s going to happen either, I’m just saying, since when did you become the soothsayer of all soothsayers when it comes to the potential value of real estate? If you’re as good as your comment implies, hell, Donald Trump will be putting your number on speed dial, believe me.
You believe that it’s a terrible location, that’s fine. I can respect your individual opinion. But unless less than 376 potential willing and able buyers at any point in time agree with you, the laws of supply and demand will always make owning a unit at 1RIncon a long position.

Mike, while you may think its a terrible location the market did not think so. Were not talking about one house on top of the hill but hundreds and hundreds of units. I don’t think that defines anything. There is also many more buildings in the works from world class successful developers. Maybe one developer could misinterpret the market but an entire group of them?

Even if we were at the top, 1 Rincon buyers have an extra cushion. Putting a reservation on a place is like buying an option. Rincon buyers put 5% down. If the market declines drastically more that 5% in the next two years, they can walk away and rebuy for cheaper. If the market goes down they lose maximum 5% over two years. If the market goes up they win. If they plan on living there for a number of years is doesn’t matter.

I don’t claim any special real estate knowledge. All I know is that nothing is a sure thing (even in real estate), no matter how many people say it is.
Placing a large bet on a condo in crappy location is not a bet I’d want to make. But we’ll see.

It’s even better than that because we actually only put down 3%. Infinity required a 5% deposit.
One other thing is that you are also able to lock your price at a time when interest rates are high and seemingly on the way down. By the time I close in mid-2008, I’m quite confident that my interest rate will be much lower than rates are right now, whether it’s the spot rate or the rate I lock when I feel like rates have bottomed out. It’s a thing of beauty and a real inventive to do these pre-construction deals.

1Rincon under priced their units to start with. That started a wave of momentum that resulted in many people making irrational decisions – “I have to get in before they raise prices again!”.
Thus many bought without putting much thought into it. And some that bought at the higher prices are probably backing out now.
Why do you think 1Rincon’s inventory is slowly creeping up. Couple months ago, they only had 20 something units available, not it’s 45 plus the dozen or so townhomes.
Sure, 1Rincon had a great start, but it was simply because they priced so low to begin with so they could lock down financing. Didn’t Palms and Beacon have a great start? Not saying 1Rincon is a bad product, but I don’t think it’s head and shoulders above the rest. And yes, the location still sucks.

All I want to know is who is going to have the pleasure of being the 100th 1Rincon comment on this topic? Sheesh….
Note to Editor: Have any topics since your launch generated triple digit comments? I’d be very curious to know…

Putting a reservation on a place is like buying an option.
That definitely makes sense. As a pure roll of the dice, maybe it makes sense to buy there. I have a lot of experience with Vancouver BC real estate where there’s a huge amount of buying/reselling assignments (options to purchase, if you will). Some people do very well with it.
If you’re willing to walk away from your 3% if prices drop, it could work out well. As a buy and hold, though, I think it’s a loser.

“The location still sucks.”
It’s really not that simple……..because if take away the fact that the bay bridge onramp is located right next to the project site, the location is actually pretty stellar in terms of its central location relative to downtown, the Embarcadero and the ball park.
That statement really needs to be made with a little more articulation because, as state by SF Living, it’s simply untrue.
I suggest we go back to the ranters make the more articulate statement along the lines of, “who would want to live near a freeway onramp?” At least that’s more accurate than the blanket statement, “the location sucks.”

“if take away the fact that the bay bridge onramp is located right next to the project site, the location is actually pretty stellar”
Yes, but we CAN’T take away the onramp, that is here to stay so I stand by my word because of the onramp.
But I’ll be a little more political, the location is terrible for a large condo complex because it’s right next to the onramp to a major freeway system.

Where is Mr. Sub-Optimal when you need him? Remember him?
I would further revise the statement as follows,
“A large luxury high-rise condo development immediately adjacent to a freeway on-ramp is sub-optimal.”
Any takers with that formulation?

It is undeniable that 1 Rincon is next to the off ramp. Some people think this sucks other people don’t care. I just don’t see it having much of an impact on property values though.
What about Manhattan? Or all the $5-$10 million dollar homes on PCH in Los Angeles right next to the entrance to the 10 freeway? Those are right next to the highway and there is always traffic. During the week its rush hour, during the weekend its beach traffic.
San Francisco is changing. The city is becoming more dense.
I also have never heard anybody mention the Clock Tower lofts. Those are even closer to the freeway and only slightly higher.

When driving on the bridge(lower and upper deck) and passing 1Rincon, there are a couple floors that are level with the freeway.
I can’t imagine living in those particular units. The cars are so close! I mean, the drivers could probably make out what’s on TV or what those poor folks are eating for dinner!
I’m curious to know what those units went for? Even at $800/sqft, those would be expensive.

I’ve been driving around the area for a while now to see if I will have trouble getting to my place at 1 Rincon during traffic. To tell you the truth, I like the location. When I go to the east bay, I can pull out of the driveway and cut in front of all the people getting on.
When I come home from the east bay, I can just take the other ramp (when finished) and make a left turn right into the driveway.
If I am coming home from within the city, I can cut up the left side of 1st and cut the traffic. OR I can walk.
It’s near Union Square, the Clock Tower Lofts, North Beach, where I have trouble getting anywhere.
People have also forgotten about the part in the Marina that the 101 goes through and is the funnel to the GG bridge. Just as much traffic down there at rush hour.

Now that’s first rational statement I’ve seen on this topic. I bought at 1Rincon for $800/sqft but I’m on around the 20th floor and I face towards downton, the GG bridge and twin peaks so I very very happy.
I have no idea what those units went for, but it’s the only thing that I could have gotten for the price I will be paying, I would have passed. Those units, in my opinion, are losers. I anyone paid more than $750/sqft for one of those, they were ripped off.

1Rincon will have large floor to ceiling windows. Those units level with the bridge will have grand views of… traffic! Especially the onces facing out to the lower deck. Now that’s a bad view.
With units that close to cars and trucks going 60+ miles per hour, it is a safety issue? Large trucks constantly shoot out pebble and rocks from under their tires. What if it hits the windows?

Has anybody ever seen the windows of the Clock Tower Lofts from the lower deck? You can watch the residents bruch their teeth. Get real people. There are lots of buildings in SF that have windows that are in close proximity to busy steets, on ramps, off ramps, etc. 1 Rincon is not special case.
Would I want to live on the level right next to the deck of the bidge? No. I am sure some people could care less.
I also have to say that the part of the upper deck that is closest to 1 Rincon is temporary. It will be demolished adding another 20 feet or so of space.

Okay, we love the rabid enthusiasm and debate. And while the inmates just might be running the asylum on this one, all we ask is that they please try to focus on the quality, and not the quantity, of their comments. It’s all too easy for the insightful nuggets to get lost in the shuffle. (Then again, 200 is a nice round number…)

I think those units facing the bridge does face a hazard. A few weeks ago, there was a freak accident where a women driving on the freeway died when a 10lb rock lodged under a large truck become unlodged and hurled into the front windshield of the women’s car.
And what about accidents? Going 60-70 mph, accidents can certainly hurl car parts in any direction. Those units seem only a few feet away. How can you say it’s not a safety issue?
I’d be concerned if I lived there… (of course I wouldn’t live there)

“The windows you see in the Clocktower are either common hallways or parking garage. There are no units facing the bridge-the noise in those hallways is unbearable”
Are you sure all of them? I used to commute and swear I’ve seen the tenants inside.
I really do not think that safety can be brought up as a serious issue. There are all kinds of yards, windows, decks, streets, parks, walkways, etc, underneath freeways. Are there freak accidents yes. But I would think the chances would be like getting struck by lightning.

Speaking of freak accidents, about two months ago a large delivery truck smashed its sideview mirror on the light pole while on the upper deck above 2nd street, showering broken glass on ballpark pedestrians below. fun stuff.

As for the 1Rincon units that will face towards the bridge, the upper floor units will have goreous unobstructed views of the ballpark and the bay. As for the very bottom floor, it looks likes those units will be looking straight into bridge traffic (or slightly above it). However, I thought someone earlier said something about one of the temporary decks being demolished, but I’m not sure in what way that would improve the situation for the units on the very bottom floor.

On the higher floors, at least, if the building is reasonably soundproofed, noise shouldn’t be a problem.
I just returned from NYC. Stayed at the Marriott Marquis, right in the middle of Times Square. My 33rd floor room was tranquil, really, despite the location.
Floors that are level with and facing the freeway– now wouldn’t that be the perfect place for the below market rate units? At the right price, there will be no problem finding people who don’t mind the freeway view and noise.

I don’t think 1Rincon sold any BMR units on site. They were all offsite.
The first 5-6 floors with windows facing the bridge will have a noise issue and a bad view (the worst are the ones facing right into the lower deck).
But I doubt they were much cheaper than the rest. Even at $800/sqft would be expensive. Probably $650/sqft is more reasonable so whoever bought them may be stuck with them, especially if you can get a comparable unit at a higher floor…

I’d very curious to know where exactly the unreserved units are located in the building. I have to believe that if those units stay unreserved long enough, the prices will drop slightly (I said slightly, not drastically).
I think the low floor bridgeview units would likely go for between $750-$850/sqft. Any more would be a crime. Personally, it’s hard for me to guage where market currently resides because I got in on the second day of preview week, so I know my price was a relative bargain ($800/sqft. I’ve heard, however, that my 2-2 unit on close by floors later went for about $1000-1100/sqft.

Anonymous, what floors are currently going for $1000-1100/sqft?
By the way, you got a bargain!
The last time I check the inventory about a month ago, there were very few lower floors available. I don’t recall any of the bridge level units available so they were probably bought out. At what price? I don’t think anyone knows, but I believe around $800/sqft was the floor.

20 and above, I think. My unit is around 20, so that’s why I asked what my unit was going for on those close by floors.
Thanks for the info. That’s interesting about the lower floors….I wouldn’t have guessed that. I wonder which units will be the last to go?

I am pretty sure that 1 Rincon does not have any floors low enough to face the lower deck. The residential floors start at 8 but do include the basement. The first floor that is over the larger platform is floor 8.

hey you guys talked about the units adjacent to the bridge offramp, so i took a look while taking that exit today. isn’t that low enough on the building to still be part of the garage only? also, is that a permanent offramp or just temporary?

I have watched the 1Rincon video that shows the computer-generated finished landscaping and streetscaping expected to be in place once the project is finised. It’s interesting because it also appears to show what the bridge will look like relative to the building once the temporary portions are removed. It actually looks pretty great.
The only reason I bring it up is that, absent the video representation and photos being complete shams in terms of what is planned for the area, I really don’t think the whole Bay Bridge onramp issue is going to be of any significance in terms of the outdoor aesthetic qualities of the building. The only issue will be the presence of a large number of cars during certain hours of the day (and mind you, those times will be very limited, e.g., rush hour on the weekdays and the “exodus hour’ on the weekends). Also, isn’t it true that once the area is developed, there will be more onramps open in the area generally, thereby reducing the concentration of traffic flow at a single onramp? I believe at least one, if not two, onramps are currently closed.

There’s an onramp off Essex St a block down. Don’t know if that’s currently open but I believe that’s the only other onramp in the area (other than the Bryant st one).
The city doesn’t have any plans to build more onramps so the traffic should remain the same, though the streetscaping around 1Rincon should improve the quality of the area over time…

I have watched the 1Rincon video that shows the computer-generated finished landscaping and streetscaping expected to be in place once the project is finised. It’s interesting because it also appears to show what the bridge will look like relative to the building once the temporary portions are removed. It actually looks pretty great.
Well, I guess that settles it, there’s video to prove it!

It looks as though the last reader needs a reading comprehension lesson.
The comment did not state that everything in the video “will” actually happen (noone is that naive). He/she only said that “if” what is portrayed in the video actually occurs, it will be great.

I think the lower floors near the freeway were around $700/sq ft since the 2 bedrooms started in the mid $800s. I still wouldn’t pay that to stare at traffic all day, but I’m sure some bargain hunters don’t mind. There will probably be trees there once they’re finished with the building.