Why I Blame Homeschooling, Not Just My Parents: Reflections by Nicholas Ducote

Nicholas Ducote is a Community Coordinator for Homeschoolers Anonymous.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As a former publik skool kid I tried to form this kinda group once. When I went down too citi hall though they gave me a bunch of paper works and said to me to sign my john hancock on the dotted line on all the forms. Well my name ain't John and the line was straight and not dotted so I was just confused and left without them papers. It was a good try though. really good. My hi skool teachers would have gave me an A for sure!

I'm really not getting what the author means by "abuse". If he was locked in the cellar or beaten with pvc piping, then I could understand being somewhat perturbed and possibly seeing homeschooling as being part of the problem. But if we're calling "Oh no, my parents held to weird ideas like the concept of 'courtship' and I had to sneak around to meet girls away from their gaze" I think the author is engaging in petulant whining.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

The Harris family and their beliefs about Biblical courtshipDavid Barton and Little Bear Wheeler’s revisionist historyEvangelical leaders that scared everyone about the evils of secular humanismMichael and Debi Pearl’s harsh ideas on corporal punishment and misogynistic ideas of gender rolesHuge book sales populated mostly by Christian fundamentalist textbooks — advocating creationism, teaching math based around the Gospel message, or other “educational tools.”

Seems to summarize the author's complaints with homeschooling. Children can be exposed to all of that without being homeschooled.

And I find it amusing that the author's complain largely comes down to disagreeing with the kind of socialization received. Calling it "systemic indoctrination" because they disagree, regardless of the fact that any sort of upbringing that includes enculturation/socialization is "systemic indoctrination" - even the kind they agree with.

I think the difference is the isolation some of these kids are forced into and it is a form of abuse.

That may be the best way to put it. I have not read the article and while I am not going to romanticise about home school, which I never had, and I am sure some kids get a bad run, I would love too see the psychiatric results of a group of home school students and a group of public school students. Say 100 from each group--50 male, 50 female, same age. Because I am not trying to say home school is an absolute solution, but in terms of education public school is a brain washing scam. I'll have to read the results though.

First thing I get. Extremely neurotic. And like the common neurotic he blames others for his problems. I am not saying how his parents acted was not a factor, but there is a lot more to it than that. If he ever wants to overcome his neurosis he needs to look at his whole self, not just blaming others, but seeing where the root of the problem lies. I do not even think major outward problem is homoschoolig, but religious fundamentalism. That is the first principle. That is what moves the homeschooling towards his current mental state and hang ups. I am not saying there was not a problem with his childhood and his parents, but abuse is a strong word. Maybe his parents were a bit extreme and messed up themselves, but I think this is just the common wine of a manic depressive. Sorry.

Here is my personal view on education in the formative years. Does anyone here really look back at grade or high school and think: "Gee, those were the best days of my life!" I personally don't know anyone who thinks that. We are all raised by parents who loved us, but made mistakes. They were inexperienced at it just light any parent today is inexperienced at it. We all try to figure it out as we go, but we are all fallible humans. Moreover, our parents were raised with generational differences to us just like our kids will with us. I have no doubt that my kids will think when they grow up: "Man, my parents could have done things so much better. I am doing to improve on their parenting style." In fact, I hope that they do. I hope they are better parents than I am. I grew up in a very fundamentalist non-denominational family and I look back now at some of the things that went on and just shake my head. Even my parents recognize that some of the techniques used were not the best, but don't sit around and fantasize that your like would somehow be magically better if you had gotten to go to public school/private school/boarding school, etc. Learn from your past and move forward. Sitting around wallowing in self-pity is a waste of time.

Here is my personal view on education in the formative years. Does anyone here really look back at grade or high school and think: "Gee, those were the best days of my life!" I personally don't know anyone who thinks that. We are all raised by parents who loved us, but made mistakes. They were inexperienced at it just light any parent today is inexperienced at it. We all try to figure it out as we go, but we are all fallible humans. Moreover, our parents were raised with generational differences to us just like our kids will with us. I have no doubt that my kids will think when they grow up: "Man, my parents could have done things so much better. I am doing to improve on their parenting style." In fact, I hope that they do. I hope they are better parents than I am. I grew up in a very fundamentalist non-denominational family and I look back now at some of the things that went on and just shake my head. Even my parents recognize that some of the techniques used were not the best, but don't sit around and fantasize that your like would somehow be magically better if you had gotten to go to public school/private school/boarding school, etc. Learn from your past and move forward. Sitting around wallowing in self-pity is a waste of time.

*steps off soapbox*

Very well stated!

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Why I Blame Homeschooling, Not Just My Parents: Reflections by Nicholas Ducote

Nicholas Ducote is a Community Coordinator for Homeschoolers Anonymous.

Robb, why did you post this? I do not see how the article would be applicable or of interest to the Orthodox Christian audience, nor does the content of the post fit the title:

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Why I Blame Homeschooling, Not Just My Parents: Reflections by Nicholas Ducote

Author edit, after posting, to clarify my call for more oversight:...

Homeschooling, as a method of instruction, is not intrinsically bad, dangerous, or damaging. I saw many children raised in homeschooling who were not abused by religious fundamentalism – even if they were Christians...

The poor child is confused because of his bizarre Protestant fundamentalist upbringing, homeschooling being just a part of that. If he had the same bizarre fundamentalist upbringing but attended public school, I'm not sure if he would be much less damaged.

I wish we could home school our children but we have four young children and my wife is not confident that she could handle it properly. Perhaps we will when they are older. We know a couple of Orthodox families who home school and their children are extremely well behaved and intelligent, not to mention that they attend weekday church services regularly and live a much more church-centered life.

I attended private school, then public, then was home schooled for the last year of high school. My year being home schooled was the most productive and it really helped me prepare for college since I had to be much more self-motivated. My parents were not Orthodox, though, and so I was not blessed to have a church-centered Orthodox home schooling experience.

Here is my personal view on education in the formative years. Does anyone here really look back at grade or high school and think: "Gee, those were the best days of my life!"

*raises hand*

*pats Cyrillic's head*

There, there. Once you have other days in your life to compare them to, you will perhaps have a different opinion.

No offense towards Cyrillic....but, this was really funny!

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Does anyone here really look back at grade or high school and think: "Gee, those were the best days of my life!"

I do.

*pats Cyrillic'sMichal's head*

There, there. Once you have other days in your life to compare them to, you will perhaps have a different opinion.

I'm starting to feel like the old grandfather, here.

I do as well.

Netherlands, Belarus, Greece... See a pattern here?

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Really? How on earth was that a good time of anyone's life? I liked playing sports, but other than that, it was just sitting in school all day, you have no money to do anything, you have to ask your parents permission to do stuff even if you do have some money, you have to deal with puberty and school cliques and stupid drama and grumpy teachers, and...and...and...

No way. I like my life now. College (or University at you Old World people call it) was a lot of fun, but you couldn't pay me enough to go back to grade school.

Really? How on earth was that a good time of anyone's life? I liked playing sports, but other than that, it was just sitting in school all day, you have no money to do anything, you have to ask your parents permission to do stuff even if you do have some money, you have to deal with puberty and school cliques and stupid drama and grumpy teachers, and...and...and...

No way. I like my life now. College (or University at you Old World people call it) was a lot of fun, but you couldn't pay me enough to go back to grade school.

No responsibilities, no much learning, no work, no troubles... Only parties all the time.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Really? How on earth was that a good time of anyone's life? I liked playing sports, but other than that, it was just sitting in school all day, you have no money to do anything, you have to ask your parents permission to do stuff even if you do have some money, you have to deal with puberty and school cliques and stupid drama and grumpy teachers, and...and...and...

No way. I like my life now. College (or University at you Old World people call it) was a lot of fun, but you couldn't pay me enough to go back to grade school.

No responsibilities, no much learning, no work, no troubles... Only parties all the time.

LOL, you and I had very different childhoods, apparently. I had chores at home, I worked 20 hrs a week on top of going to school and I got in trouble more than a few times. And very few parties.

Really? How on earth was that a good time of anyone's life? I liked playing sports, but other than that, it was just sitting in school all day, you have no money to do anything, you have to ask your parents permission to do stuff even if you do have some money, you have to deal with puberty and school cliques and stupid drama and grumpy teachers, and...and...and...

No way. I like my life now. College (or University at you Old World people call it) was a lot of fun, but you couldn't pay me enough to go back to grade school.

No responsibilities, no much learning, no work, no troubles... Only parties all the time.

LOL, you and I had very different childhoods, apparently. I had chores at home, I worked 20 hrs a week on top of going to school and I got in trouble more than a few times. And very few parties.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Well I did all three during my lifetime: homeschooling, private schooling, and public schooling. Each of them were good in some ways and bad in others. Personally, I think the very worst out of the three was private schooling, because it was just an indoctrination ground for Evangelical religious-right weirdos to teach us their theology, ignore sections in the science textbook, and try to force right-wing politics on us, going so far as to tell us to try to urge our parents to vote for McCain over Obama.

Well I did all three during my lifetime: homeschooling, private schooling, and public schooling. Each of them were good in some ways and bad in others. Personally, I think the very worst out of the three was private schooling, because it was just an indoctrination ground for Evangelical religious-right weirdos to teach us their theology, ignore sections in the science textbook, and try to force right-wing politics on us, going so far as to tell us to try to urge our parents to vote for McCain over Obama.

Serious question: is your position that private schooling is in general a bad idea, or are you at odds only with the ideology of the school you attended?

Well I did all three during my lifetime: homeschooling, private schooling, and public schooling. Each of them were good in some ways and bad in others. Personally, I think the very worst out of the three was private schooling, because it was just an indoctrination ground for Evangelical religious-right weirdos to teach us their theology, ignore sections in the science textbook, and try to force right-wing politics on us, going so far as to tell us to try to urge our parents to vote for McCain over Obama.

Serious question: is your position that private schooling is in general a bad idea, or are you at odds only with the ideology of the school you attended?

The former. Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

The former. Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

How is that any different than public school???

I've taught in public school for ten years, and I all see coming from the humanities departments is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Some of the science teachers are just as bad, and even denigrate students for being Christians. At least with private schools, families can choose the indoctrination they desire.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

The former. Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

How is that any different than public school???

I've taught in public school for ten years, and I all see coming from the humanities departments is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Some of the science teachers are just as bad, and even denigrate students for being Christians. At least with private schools, families can choose the indoctrination they desire.

What are you doing? Walking into this thread and talking sense like that. Is that even allowed?

The former. Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

How is that any different than public school???

I've taught in public school for ten years, and I all see coming from the humanities departments is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Some of the science teachers are just as bad, and even denigrate students for being Christians. At least with private schools, families can choose the indoctrination they desire.

What are you doing? Walking into this thread and talking sense like that. Is that even allowed?

Is outrage!

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 05:25:00 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I hope I do not stir up the bees here, but I wonder if this guy is confused about his homosexuality. The reason I say so is the way he presents himself shows someone who is confused about their homosexuality. He may like girls, but he may be in the closet, too. And he may not really understand those feelings, but if he does understand them he may rush out of the closet and blame his parents for keeping his sexual feelings bottled up under religious indoctrination. It may not be that much, but I am betting he sees a shrink.

EDIT: Not that seeing a shrink makes a bad person. Actually, people with mental disorders would do well to get therapy rather than try to figure it out all on themsleves in the blogosphere. And pills just calm the problem. Good therapy gets to the root of the problem. I am still trying to understand my own self, to examine myself and my subconcious It is one reason I have considered being a therapist. The problem with most neurotics is first they, like most people as Jung says do not really know themselves, and two I would say most neurotics refuse to blame themselves for their own problem. Like the obsessive compulsive just thinks that is the way they are and will refuse to try to correct what makes them that way or admit that their is a fault in the way they see thinks. They may even say they are obsessive compulsive and have a certain pride about it, like it is a good thing, and makes them better than others, but you are hard pressed to find many that say it is wrong or make a real effort to overcome it.

Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

Are you against private Orthodox schools too?

I think they are run by nutty Straussians (the Great Books people). I mean the few here in the US. Plus private schools are just a hothouse of reactionarism, in general.

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

The Harris family and their beliefs about Biblical courtshipDavid Barton and Little Bear Wheeler’s revisionist historyEvangelical leaders that scared everyone about the evils of secular humanismMichael and Debi Pearl’s harsh ideas on corporal punishment and misogynistic ideas of gender rolesHuge book sales populated mostly by Christian fundamentalist textbooks — advocating creationism, teaching math based around the Gospel message, or other “educational tools.”

Seems to summarize the author's complaints with homeschooling. Children can be exposed to all of that without being homeschooled.

The unholy trinity of the Harris, Barton and Pearl materials in the wrong hands could be particularly toxic, regardless of homeschooling. For most it's just harmless kookiness, but I've known more than one family who took the Harris and Pearl ideologies to abusive extremes.

Of course, this guy seems to have deep-seated issues that go far beyond a few bad books.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:42:12 PM by Agabus »

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

My Biology teacher was in favor of population control. also, she showed constantly a "REAL TIME NUMBER OF ALL TREES IN THE WORLD, WATCH AS THEY ALL FALL!!!!"

I made a nice graph, showing population rising when we got those new fangled farming equipment and the great migration to cities. anyway, she was very happy that I drew at the end of the graph a line going down. (lower population)

Then there are homeschoolers like this young lady, who has authored several books, is an excellent photographer, and runs a magazine that is more dedicated to Christianity, than many things I've read.http://kingsbloomingrose.com/

Often people who decide to be worldly hold hostility towards their parents who protected them from worldly things. Some are mad because their parents didn't let them go to parties and get drunk in high school. Later they blame "religious fanaticism" of their parents for all their faults.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but almost every homeschooler that I know believes in the scriptures and holds true to "training their children up in the lord". Most try to teach them to follow God's will.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

the great books curriculum is quite popular among a small segment of american conservatives. afaik it's of straussian inspiration. perhaps some philosophia perennis thrown in as well.

Why is that a bad thing?

Most "Great Books" programs at the university level are not conservative at all. Straussian ideas would be considered fringe, except in one or two places, as would any kind of "conservatism."

The movement began in Europe in the mid 19th century and was popularized in the US by Charles Eliot at Harvard as a kind of democratic form of adult education: if you aren't one of the blue bloods who can come to Harvard, then read this pre-packed set of "Harvard Classics" and you will become an educated person.

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But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Hey, leave the Great Books alone. I know it is an American conservative reactionary thing, but its the best we can hope for in Amerika. I am a big fan of Great Books in the Most Serene Republic of the Godless Fremasonic Idiotic Libertarians.

Actually I think it can be said to be a general Anglo-American reactionary thing. Anglo-American religion and politics is messed up. If I was going to be a liberal, I would just be a communist because that is taking the Enlightenment ideals to their conclusion. Neo-conservatism and paleo-conservatism is just conservative liberalism of the 18th century. It is based on deism and secular humanism. It's a result, I am realising, of Western rationalism, but I am trying to avoid getting to emotional in my journey east. But one does begin to tire or Western legalaism and rationalism. It's such a deep issue, and not black and white. It's why I am not sure there is much hope in American politics. Everything is black and white, socialist vs capitalist, conservative vs liberal, constitution vs statism, liberatairn vs statist. The simple thing is to blame rationalism, though its not that simple.

Well I did all three during my lifetime: homeschooling, private schooling, and public schooling. Each of them were good in some ways and bad in others. Personally, I think the very worst out of the three was private schooling, because it was just an indoctrination ground for Evangelical religious-right weirdos to teach us their theology, ignore sections in the science textbook, and try to force right-wing politics on us, going so far as to tell us to try to urge our parents to vote for McCain over Obama.

Well, if you had gone to a good Episcopal school, you wouldn't have either of those problems....

Actually I think it can be said to be a general Anglo-American reactionary thing. Anglo-American religion and politics is messed up. If I was going to be a liberal, I would just be a communist because that is taking the Enlightenment ideals to their conclusion.

Hmmmm, didn't go to one of those Episcopal schools, I see.....

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Neo-conservatism and paleo-conservatism is just conservative liberalism of the 18th century.

Better, maybe....

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It is based on deism and secular humanism. It's a result, I am realising, of Western rationalism, but I am trying to avoid getting to emotional in my journey east.

...where all they've ever heard of is autocracy and subservience to the throne. Look, there are probably more subtle ways to look at the ostensibly conservative/liberal split in American politics; the fact that the supposedly hopelessly liberal president has a comprehensive spying program on everyone and that his only serious opposition seems to be a few cranky public affairs journals and a single loopy libertarian congresscritter shows that the conventional casting of the parties is, as usual, inaccurate. Meanwhile eastern irrationalism produces Putin and 1/5 of the PIIGS. You can snark about western rationalism all you want, but seeing as how every aspect of the medium which carries your snarking is a product of western rationalism, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

I've been in education for several years and have taught both in public and private schools and at jr. colleges. I have met precisely 1 homeschooled student I believed would have been better off in the public or private system. Every other homeschooler I've known has been well adjusted, mature, and possessed an education at graduation that was far superior to their publicly graduated classmates in many respects. They tracked a year to two ahead of their public peers in just about every academic discipline. Granted I may have been fortunate in the homeschoolers I've met, but for those that I did meet, it was definitely the better choice for them and their families…with that one exception.

I've been in education for several years and have taught both in public and private schools and at jr. colleges. I have met precisely 1 homeschooled student I believed would have been better off in the public or private system. Every other homeschooler I've known has been well adjusted, mature, and possessed an education at graduation that was far superior to their publicly graduated classmates in many respects. They tracked a year to two ahead of their public peers in just about every academic discipline. Granted I may have been fortunate in the homeschoolers I've met, but for those that I did meet, it was definitely the better choice for them and their families…with that one exception.

Interesting how we have opposite opinions based on our experiences.

I really would like it if what you said is true, but at the moment, I fear that homeschooling bears some strange fruit. I worked with a couple of Orthodox that were home schooled. They were priest kids and everyone thought they were weird, including yours truly.

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

I've been in education for several years and have taught both in public and private schools and at jr. colleges. I have met precisely 1 homeschooled student I believed would have been better off in the public or private system. Every other homeschooler I've known has been well adjusted, mature, and possessed an education at graduation that was far superior to their publicly graduated classmates in many respects. They tracked a year to two ahead of their public peers in just about every academic discipline. Granted I may have been fortunate in the homeschoolers I've met, but for those that I did meet, it was definitely the better choice for them and their families…with that one exception.

Interesting how we have opposite opinions based on our experiences.

I really would like it if what you said is true, but at the moment, I fear that homeschooling bears some strange fruit. I worked with a couple of Orthodox that were home schooled. They were priest kids and everyone thought they were weird, including yours truly.

You thought the kids were weird so therefore all homeschooled kids are weird? What kind of warped logic is that?

I am a teacher as well. i've been in both the private and public systems. Every year my students compete against homeschooled kids at the NeJCL convention. The homeschooled kids always do very well. During the social events, they are fine and mingle and socialize just like any other kid there. So, since this is my experience, therefore, homeschooled kids are not weird. My experience trumps yours. Isn't that the thrust of your whole argument?

I've been in education for several years and have taught both in public and private schools and at jr. colleges. I have met precisely 1 homeschooled student I believed would have been better off in the public or private system. Every other homeschooler I've known has been well adjusted, mature, and possessed an education at graduation that was far superior to their publicly graduated classmates in many respects. They tracked a year to two ahead of their public peers in just about every academic discipline. Granted I may have been fortunate in the homeschoolers I've met, but for those that I did meet, it was definitely the better choice for them and their families…with that one exception.

Interesting how we have opposite opinions based on our experiences.

I really would like it if what you said is true, but at the moment, I fear that homeschooling bears some strange fruit. I worked with a couple of Orthodox that were home schooled. They were priest kids and everyone thought they were weird, including yours truly.

You thought the kids were weird so therefore all homeschooled kids are weird? What kind of warped logic is that?

I am a teacher as well. i've been in both the private and public systems. Every year my students compete against homeschooled kids at the NeJCL convention. The homeschooled kids always do very well. During the social events, they are fine and mingle and socialize just like any other kid there. So, since this is my experience, therefore, homeschooled kids are not weird. My experience trumps yours. Isn't that the thrust of your whole argument?

All I was saying was that of the sample size I've met, most of them were socially awkward. You are welcome to your own opinion based on the homeschoolers you've encountered, but obviously I trust what I've witnessed more than what you've witnessed. Admittedly, however, it's a difficult thing to measure.

I recommend it to anyone who is interested in homeschooling. Despite my opinion on the homeschoolers I've met, I now think that it's a viable option, at least in the US where the public school system is often sub-par.

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

Research shows that the current education systems are not in the best interest of children. I am studying Early Childhood Education, and even some of my professors home schooled their children at least through the early years. I'm happy research is looking into this because it is important to ask why certain things are how they are and who do they benefit. Should children really be spending 7 hours away from their family starting at as early as 5 years old? My professors say all this started with industrialization.

From a spiritual perspective I do think children should spend their childhood with their family, and not most of their day at school. Mother and fathers can teach the academic curriculum and spend time nurturing the relationship with their children and with God.

I do not think these negative situations represent all homeschooling. I know of many loving Orthodox families that home school their children and their children are very joyful. They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:44:37 AM by Alxandra »

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Do they also say that, before then, those who could afford education for their children hired tutors and governesses, while those who couldn't remained illiterate?

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Do they also say that, before then, those who could afford education for their children hired tutors and governesses, while those who couldn't remained illiterate?

There is nothing wrong with education, I'm talking about the current education system and what schools look like now in North America and Western Europe. Education can be done in a way that doesn't separate the family and take away the joys of childhood. Children should not have to keep up with the busy working schedule of their parents. This is an unpopular opinion so forgive me if I offend, but this is why it is very healthy for the child to have the mother home.

I realize not all mothers are able to stay home, that is why this research is being done - to make the schools more home-like. Kindergartens have already changed in Canada for this reason. So if you are able to homeschool that is wonderful and it is a very good option for children, if not the most natural.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 10:02:32 AM by Alxandra »

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Do they also say that, before then, those who could afford education for their children hired tutors and governesses, while those who couldn't remained illiterate?

There is nothing wrong with education, I'm talking about the current education system and what schools look like now in North America and Western Europe. Education can be done in a way that doesn't separate the family and take away the joys of childhood. Children should not have to keep up with the busy working schedule of their parents. This is an unpopular opinion so forgive me if I offend, but this is why it is very healthy for the child to have the mother home.

That's why we need a healthier education system, which isn't going to happen any time soon if every parent thinks their way is better.

Homeschooling as it is generally understood today is a product of the 1960s - hippie parents who didn't want their children 'indoctrinated' by the mainstream. Historically, it was never the parents' task to educate their children, at least not since education has meant something more than basic literacy and numeracy. It was always assigned to trained professionals, whether at home or abroad. School as we know it was invented at least as far back as classical Athens, where boys went daily to their tutors' house for lessons.

You're training to become an educator. Do you believe that the kind of training you are receiving is necessary to successfully educate a child? If yes, then all parents should get it, and none without such qualification should be allowed to teach their children. If not, then everything you and your professors are doing is a waste of time and resources.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Do they also say that, before then, those who could afford education for their children hired tutors and governesses, while those who couldn't remained illiterate?

There is nothing wrong with education, I'm talking about the current education system and what schools look like now in North America and Western Europe. Education can be done in a way that doesn't separate the family and take away the joys of childhood. Children should not have to keep up with the busy working schedule of their parents. This is an unpopular opinion so forgive me if I offend, but this is why it is very healthy for the child to have the mother home.

That's why we need a healthier education system, which isn't going to happen any time soon if every parent thinks their way is better.

Homeschooling as it is generally understood today is a product of the 1960s - hippie parents who didn't want their children 'indoctrinated' by the mainstream. Historically, it was never the parents' task to educate their children, at least not since education has meant something more than basic literacy and numeracy. It was always assigned to trained professionals, whether at home or abroad. School as we know it was invented at least as far back as classical Athens, where boys went daily to their tutors' house for lessons.

You're training to become an educator. Do you believe that the kind of training you are receiving is necessary to successfully educate a child? If yes, then all parents should get it, and none without such qualification should be allowed to teach their children. If not, then everything you and your professors are doing is a waste of time and resources.

Children who are home schooled properly are more likely to get accepted into a university/college compared to 41% of those finishing high school.

And homeschooling is not outdated at all, it is the most natural way to educate children. There is a reason why now that people are becoming educated on children,early psychology, etc they are choosing to home school.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 10:22:01 AM by Alxandra »

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

What did I doge? I think you are misunderstanding me, I'm not saying education is not important. Of course my training is important, and like I said children who are home schooled are more likely to get accepted at a university or college.

The early years however should not be spent in our current education system and research shows how it was not made in the best interest of children, but instead for the busy work schedule of parents. In countries where mothers are more likely to stay home with their children, school ends at 12pm. I will gather some of the links we study in my program and post them here soon.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 10:29:27 AM by Alxandra »

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

"This article reviews research on homeschool learner outcomes and evaluates opposition to homeschooling. It synthesizes research on learner outcomes related to homeschooling in areas of students’ academic achievement and children's social, emotional, and psychological development and the success of adults who were home educated and finds generally positive outcomes on a variety of variables are associated with homeschooling. The author identifies four classes of negativity expressed toward home-based education by the education profession, such as the claims homeschooling is bad for the collective good and that without much state regulation significant numbers of homeschooling (home schooling) parents will harm their children. The evaluation reveals that proactive opposition to homeschooling and calls for significant state control over homeschooling do not offer any empirical research evidence that homeschooling is bad for individual children, families, neighborhoods, or the collective good. The alleged harms of homeschooling or arguments for more control of it are fundamentally philosophical and push for the state, rather than parents, to be in primary and ultimate control over the education and upbringing of children so they will come to hold worldviews more aligned with the state and opponents of state-free homeschooling than with the children's parents and freely chosen relationships."

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

The former. Private Schooling is a horrible idea because the kids then become subjected to whatever ideology the school wants to indoctrinate them with, and they develop a superiority complex. When I went to Private School, they were always teaching us that public school kids are bad or evil or something, and that we should avoid "their environment." It promotes class warfare.

How is that any different than public school???

I've taught in public school for ten years, and I all see coming from the humanities departments is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Some of the science teachers are just as bad, and even denigrate students for being Christians. At least with private schools, families can choose the indoctrination they desire.

That hasn't been my experience growing up going to public school at all. Of course, I go to the kind of public school where we had "optional Bible class" in elementary school that I can only think of two people who didn't go to, and at least twice this year the school has offered excused absences to anyone going to a massive, month long revival service that has been going on in the area. On the other hand, my world history teacher did tell me that if it weren't for the Protestant Reformation we wouldn't have modern science as we'd all be trapped in "Catholic superstition."

Then why are you studying to be part pf a system you think is not benefical for the child?

Stop wasting our(7-12) resources on something you feel to be wrong then

I'm a little biased against education classes, but I don't think this is fair. You and Arachne are both looking at this too black and white.

There are positive things about the educational system and there are negative, the same as homeschooling. In the same way, one can believe that a degree in education is not essential to educating a child but is still good to have for various reasons.

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

I think this is the key. In my area there's homeschool sports leagues, homeschool science fair, homeschool prom, lot's of stuff like that but my family never got around to taking advantage of it.

So now, the only thing I regret about my homeschooling (though admittedly, I didn't have the nightmare of PACE, extremist discipline, etc. that some did) is that I never had much practice at meeting people which is at least partially why I'm so socially awkward IRL.

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Well I did all three during my lifetime: homeschooling, private schooling, and public schooling. Each of them were good in some ways and bad in others. Personally, I think the very worst out of the three was private schooling, because it was just an indoctrination ground for Evangelical religious-right weirdos to teach us their theology, ignore sections in the science textbook, and try to force right-wing politics on us, going so far as to tell us to try to urge our parents to vote for McCain over Obama.

Well, if you had gone to a good Episcopal school, you wouldn't have either of those problems....

Instead he'd have homosexuality, 60s liberalism, and the leaky sieve that is Anglican theology.

I know it's an old post, but I couldn't resist.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:26:56 PM by Volnutt »

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

I think this is the key. In my area there's homeschool sports leagues, homeschool science fair, homeschool prom, lot's of stuff like that but my family never got around to taking advantage of it.

So now, the only thing I regret about my homeschooling (though admittedly, I didn't have the nightmare of PACE, extremist discipline, etc. that some did) is that I never had much practice at meeting people which is at least partially why I'm so socially awkward IRL.

Yeah definitely, there are awesome homeschooling communities and social events Where I live there is even an Orthodox homeschool community where many of the mothers are educated in Early Childhood Education. I love the program I am studying because It gives me the tools and understanding to educate children. I especially love how what they are teaching us is how to educate children not limited to a classroom or school system.

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

I think this is the key. In my area there's homeschool sports leagues, homeschool science fair, homeschool prom, lot's of stuff like that but my family never got around to taking advantage of it.

So now, the only thing I regret about my homeschooling (though admittedly, I didn't have the nightmare of PACE, extremist discipline, etc. that some did) is that I never had much practice at meeting people which is at least partially why I'm so socially awkward IRL.

Some Orthodox Christian Churches have homeschooling groups who sponsor activities during the school week, as well as during the weekends, which include all parishioners. In this way, homeschoolers would be able to interact with other families. Those activities include visiting the beach, museums, art galleries, movies, shows, pottery classes, petting zoos, farms with hayrides, apple-picking, pumpkin patches, and county fairs. When I was part of a homeschooling group, the parents were quite a talented and well educated group, so they offered classes in pottery, journalism, science, photography, computer science, math, English, history, French, Spanish, German, Latin, Greek, philosophy, Bible studies, golf, basketball, singing, sewing, crochet, painting, etc. We were able to attend many exciting field trips where many parents served as tour guides.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:34:18 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

I think this is the key. In my area there's homeschool sports leagues, homeschool science fair, homeschool prom, lot's of stuff like that but my family never got around to taking advantage of it.

So now, the only thing I regret about my homeschooling (though admittedly, I didn't have the nightmare of PACE, extremist discipline, etc. that some did) is that I never had much practice at meeting people which is at least partially why I'm so socially awkward IRL.

Some Orthodox Christian Churches have homeschooling groups who sponsor activities during the school week, as well as during the weekends, which include all parishioners. In this way, homeschoolers would be able to interact with other families. Those activities include visiting the beach, museums, art galleries, movies, shows, pottery classes, petting zoos, farms with hayrides, apple-picking, pumpkin patches, and county fairs. When I was part of a homeschooling group, the parents were quite a talented and well educated group, so they offered classes in pottery, journalism, science, photography, computer science, math, English, philosophy, Bible studies, golf, basketball, singing, etc. We were able to attend many exciting field trips where many parents served as tour guides.

Ohh how wonderful!

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

They socialize all the time with cousins, other children in the Orthodox community and even travel more because of the freedom. Socialization isn't a problem when homeschooling is done right.

I think this is the key. In my area there's homeschool sports leagues, homeschool science fair, homeschool prom, lot's of stuff like that but my family never got around to taking advantage of it.

So now, the only thing I regret about my homeschooling (though admittedly, I didn't have the nightmare of PACE, extremist discipline, etc. that some did) is that I never had much practice at meeting people which is at least partially why I'm so socially awkward IRL.

Some Orthodox Christian Churches have homeschooling groups who sponsor activities during the school week, as well as during the weekends, which include all parishioners. In this way, homeschoolers would be able to interact with other families. Those activities include visiting the beach, museums, art galleries, movies, shows, pottery classes, petting zoos, farms with hayrides, apple-picking, pumpkin patches, and county fairs. When I was part of a homeschooling group, the parents were quite a talented and well educated group, so they offered classes in pottery, journalism, science, photography, computer science, math, English, history, French, Spanish, German, Latin, Greek, philosophy, Bible studies, golf, basketball, singing, sewing, crochet, painting, etc. We were able to attend many exciting field trips where many parents served as tour guides.

That's good

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Then why are you studying to be part pf a system you think is not benefical for the child?

Stop wasting our(7-12) resources on something you feel to be wrong then

I'm a little biased against education classes, but I don't think this is fair. You and Arachne are both looking at this too black and white.

I won't answer for TheMathematician, but what I'm against is the current situation of completely unmoderated homeschooling. As it is, any ignoramus out there can keep their children out of school and teach them (for certain values of the word) whatever they imagine is necessary.

What I asked is whether a knowledge of child psychology and teaching methodologies is necessary to make one a successful teacher. If such knowledge is necessary, then a parent should acquire it and prove it before they are allowed to homeschool. If such knowledge is not necessary and anyone can do it, then training such educators is a waste all around.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Then why are you studying to be part pf a system you think is not benefical for the child?

Stop wasting our(7-12) resources on something you feel to be wrong then

I'm a little biased against education classes, but I don't think this is fair. You and Arachne are both looking at this too black and white.

I won't answer for TheMathematician, but what I'm against is the current situation of completely unmoderated homeschooling. As it is, any ignoramus out there can keep their children out of school and teach them (for certain values of the word) whatever they imagine is necessary.

What I asked is whether a knowledge of child psychology and teaching methodologies is necessary to make one a successful teacher. If such knowledge is necessary, then a parent should acquire it and prove it before they are allowed to homeschool. If such knowledge is not necessary and anyone can do it, then training such educators is a waste all around.

Yes those are important and the reason I am studying ECE.

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"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it” +Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Then why are you studying to be part pf a system you think is not benefical for the child?

Stop wasting our(7-12) resources on something you feel to be wrong then

I'm a little biased against education classes, but I don't think this is fair. You and Arachne are both looking at this too black and white.

I won't answer for TheMathematician, but what I'm against is the current situation of completely unmoderated homeschooling. As it is, any ignoramus out there can keep their children out of school and teach them (for certain values of the word) whatever they imagine is necessary.

What I asked is whether a knowledge of child psychology and teaching methodologies is necessary to make one a successful teacher. If such knowledge is necessary, then a parent should acquire it and prove it before they are allowed to homeschool. If such knowledge is not necessary and anyone can do it, then training such educators is a waste all around.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 02:09:13 PM by Volnutt »

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Then why are you studying to be part pf a system you think is not benefical for the child?

Stop wasting our(7-12) resources on something you feel to be wrong then

I'm a little biased against education classes, but I don't think this is fair. You and Arachne are both looking at this too black and white.

I won't answer for TheMathematician, but what I'm against is the current situation of completely unmoderated homeschooling. As it is, any ignoramus out there can keep their children out of school and teach them (for certain values of the word) whatever they imagine is necessary.

What I asked is whether a knowledge of child psychology and teaching methodologies is necessary to make one a successful teacher. If such knowledge is necessary, then a parent should acquire it and prove it before they are allowed to homeschool. If such knowledge is not necessary and anyone can do it, then training such educators is a waste all around.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

Even issuing a state license with interviews, references, and home inspection could be draconian.

If the state were to inspect and issue licenses for all homeschooling cases, then parents might not pass as not every parent has the financial means to provide an individual bedroom for each child. In some families, there are three to four children sharing a bedroom using bunkbeds.

And then the parents might not have time to instruct their children if they have to spend time in higher education first getting their early childhood instructor's license, then their K-8 teaching credential, then their high school credentials.

An early childhood instructor's license takes at least two years full time at a community college.The K-8 teaching credential takes another four years: two more years to get a B.A., then another two years for the credential.The high school credentials would take at least one to two more years.So the parents would need at least six to eight years of full time teacher's education to teach their children through high school.Now calculate the expense: College aint cheap folks.

Let's say that the Community college would cost about $10,000 per year (including books, transportation, fees, and tuition). Two years x 10,000 = $20,000

Now factor in the costs of child care during those college years at $400 to $800 per month or more with more children.Who, but the royalty and upper class, can afford to homeschool their children?

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't accept treatment from someone without a medicine degree, no matter how many textbooks they had independently read.

(My husband is a science teacher. Even so, you wouldn't believe all the sciencey things he'd be barred from doing if he were not actively in the profession. The range of experiments you can do legally doesn't go very far beyond baking soda volcanoes without certification.)

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't accept treatment from someone without a medicine degree, no matter how many textbooks they had independently read.

(My husband is a science teacher. Even so, you wouldn't believe all the sciencey things he'd be barred from doing if he were not actively in the profession. The range of experiments you can do legally doesn't go very far beyond baking soda volcanoes without certification.)

Fair enough. Ok, same argument just with the humanities.

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't accept treatment from someone without a medicine degree, no matter how many textbooks they had independently read.

(My husband is a science teacher. Even so, you wouldn't believe all the sciencey things he'd be barred from doing if he were not actively in the profession. The range of experiments you can do legally doesn't go very far beyond baking soda volcanoes without certification.)

While homeschooling my son through high school, I was taking community college courses during which time he was also attending the community college. Community college is available to youths starting at 12 years of age.

He took chemistry, biology, music theory, Spanish, computer science, art, English, history, political science, physics, calculus, etc. at the community college. Therefore, at 18 years old, he was able to graduate from community college with his AA in Spanish.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 02:33:41 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

I guess I am one of those "right winged" non Obama voting guys you talk so eloquently about. Oh yeah, I was home schooled and also went to private school. As someone that is looking at the Orthodox faith and very interested in learning more, I do wonder about this forum. Oh, I am also one of those Baptist who hates the Coptics and think the martyrs are in hell, NOT!

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

And what sort of proof would you accept if not formal credentials?

Personally? None. If my son, for whatever reason, could no longer attend school, I would hire a certified teacher to tutor him at home.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't accept treatment from someone without a medicine degree, no matter how many textbooks they had independently read.

(My husband is a science teacher. Even so, you wouldn't believe all the sciencey things he'd be barred from doing if he were not actively in the profession. The range of experiments you can do legally doesn't go very far beyond baking soda volcanoes without certification.)

Fair enough. Ok, same argument just with the humanities.

In the humanities it's not as obvious, because there are fewer legal safeguards. The difference is still there, though.

I have a degree in English, with teaching certification rolled in (as most courses are in Greek universities). I also hold a certificate from the British Institute that would have earned me a state licence as well; acquiring it involved demonstrating sufficient command of a vocabulary range of 10,000 words, and I achieved it when I was 14. Believe me, knowing around 10K words is the least part of the skill needed to actually transmit that knowledge to others.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

I guess I am one of those "right winged" non Obama voting guys you talk so eloquently about. Oh yeah, I was home schooled and also went to private school. As someone that is looking at the Orthodox faith and very interested in learning more, I do wonder about this forum. Oh, I am also one of those Baptist who hates the Coptics and think the martyrs are in hell, NOT!

Welcome to the forum. What is NOT!

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 03:27:26 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

And what sort of proof would you accept if not formal credentials?

Personally? None. If my son, for whatever reason, could no longer attend school, I would hire a certified teacher to tutor him at home.

Again, how many people with incomes barely above poverty level can hire a "certified teacher" and as you mentioned, beyond elementary school, teachers must be certified in a specific field be it English, Math, History, Science, etc.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

And what sort of proof would you accept if not formal credentials?

Personally? None. If my son, for whatever reason, could no longer attend school, I would hire a certified teacher to tutor him at home.

Again, how many people with incomes barely above poverty level can hire a "certified teacher" and as you mentioned, beyond elementary school, teachers must be certified in a specific field be it English, Math, History, Science, etc.

And you think people who have no knowledge that enables to work for a living should teach their children all on their own?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I guess I am one of those "right winged" non Obama voting guys you talk so eloquently about. Oh yeah, I was home schooled and also went to private school. As someone that is looking at the Orthodox faith and very interested in learning more, I do wonder about this forum. Oh, I am also one of those Baptist who hates the Coptics and think the martyrs are in hell, NOT!

James needs your prayers and help more than your consternation.

This forum is a lot more right wing than left.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 04:36:34 PM by Volnutt »

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

And what sort of proof would you accept if not formal credentials?

Personally? None. If my son, for whatever reason, could no longer attend school, I would hire a certified teacher to tutor him at home.

A certified teacher who has a degree in only one field? Then your kid won't be in a much better position than he would be homeschooled.

You do realize that few homeschooling parents actually write their own curriculum, don't you?

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 04:37:01 PM by Volnutt »

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It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

And what sort of proof would you accept if not formal credentials?

Personally? None. If my son, for whatever reason, could no longer attend school, I would hire a certified teacher to tutor him at home.

A certified teacher who has a degree in only one field? Then your kid won't be in a much better position than he would be homeschooled.

You do realize that few homeschooling parents actually write their own curriculum, don't you?

Indeed, most parents purchase a homeschooling curriculum, or make a contract with a recognized homeschool which provides the curriculum, the instructors for online instruction, and the instructors to grade the exams and papers which the students must submit. Prices vary, with few costing less than $500 per year per student, and this does not include the supplies needed.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 04:42:06 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

You do realize that few homeschooling parents actually write their own curriculum, don't you?

You do realise that too many homeschooling parents can't tell the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one, don't you?

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

You do realize that few homeschooling parents actually write their own curriculum, don't you?

You do realise that too many homeschooling parents can't tell the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one, don't you?

Sure there are con game everywhere.

Not too many parents can recognize that their children have been sexually abused by their public school teachers, but it does happen.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 04:44:06 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

The government should send out monitors to make sure the parents are within standardized protocol regulations.

Not their business.

It should be, education has a lot of ramifications for a society.

Most states already require that homeschoolers be tested. If said children do not fall within the normal means, and the children do not have any declared disabilities, then the state does investigate.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

That's authoritarian, though. Parents are also people and not everybody who has enough time and money to have kids is also going to have the money, time, or interest necessary to get an education degree.

This is not to mention all the different kinds of education degrees that there are. If they only have an Early Childhood Ed. degree, are we only going to let them educate their kids until middle school? What about parents with developmentally disabled kids? Do they need a degree in Special Ed just to have their kids live at home?

I could support a state test and license with interviews, references, and home inspection. Anything else goes too far.

I'm not interested in hashing out a certification system for homeschoolers. I do want some proof that someone who presumes to teach is actually able to do so. So that old 'those who can't do, teach' chestnut is not proven right all over again.

Also, teaching education is not in itself any more wasteful than offering science degrees when people can just read books about it and educate themselves, do their own experiments, etc.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't accept treatment from someone without a medicine degree, no matter how many textbooks they had independently read.

(My husband is a science teacher. Even so, you wouldn't believe all the sciencey things he'd be barred from doing if he were not actively in the profession. The range of experiments you can do legally doesn't go very far beyond baking soda volcanoes without certification.)

I hear you Arachne and while I agree with you, I think home schooling for me is a nonstarter.

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"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

The government should send out monitors to make sure the parents are within standardized protocol regulations.

Not their business.

It should be, education has a lot of ramifications for a society.

Most states already require that homeschoolers be tested. If said children do not fall within the normal means, and the children do not have any declared disabilities, then the state does investigate.

Testing isn't learning, Maria. One of the biggest problems with American education for sure.

Indeed, the Socratic method and a liberal arts education is the way. Asking questions based on reading and having a discussion, rather than simply a lecture and all reading. Dialogue is required. I am not the biggest fan of homeschooling but it is not without its merits. I am doing a college course Great Books program with mostly homeschoolers in it. In fact one of my best, dearest friends in there is homeschooled, I adore her and all her virtues and brilliant mind, likely because she was homeschooled. She has a good, close knit family, but is is also very sociable, yet not haughty or worldly. I think part of it is she has a good, large Catholic family that homeschooled her.

The government should send out monitors to make sure the parents are within standardized protocol regulations.

Not their business.

It should be, education has a lot of ramifications for a society.

Most states already require that homeschoolers be tested. If said children do not fall within the normal means, and the children do not have any declared disabilities, then the state does investigate.

Testing isn't learning, Maria. One of the biggest problems with American education for sure.

Indeed, the Socratic method and a liberal arts education is the way. Asking questions based on reading and having a discussion, rather than simply a lecture and all reading. Dialogue is required. I am not the biggest fan of homeschooling but it is not without its merits. I am doing a college course Great Books program with mostly homeschoolers in it. In fact one of my best, dearest friends in there is homeschooled, I adore her and all her virtues and brilliant mind, likely because she was homeschooled. She has a good, close knit family, but is is also very sociable, yet not haughty or worldly. I think part of it is she has a good, large Catholic family that homeschooled her.

Most of the homeschooling programs are using the Great Books program.It is a higher class education than what the public school provides.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

The government should send out monitors to make sure the parents are within standardized protocol regulations.

Not their business.

It should be, education has a lot of ramifications for a society.

Most states already require that homeschoolers be tested. If said children do not fall within the normal means, and the children do not have any declared disabilities, then the state does investigate.

Testing isn't learning, Maria. One of the biggest problems with American education for sure.

Indeed, the Socratic method and a liberal arts education is the way. Asking questions based on reading and having a discussion, rather than simply a lecture and all reading. Dialogue is required. I am not the biggest fan of homeschooling but it is not without its merits. I am doing a college course Great Books program with mostly homeschoolers in it. In fact one of my best, dearest friends in there is homeschooled, I adore her and all her virtues and brilliant mind, likely because she was homeschooled. She has a good, close knit family, but is is also very sociable, yet not haughty or worldly. I think part of it is she has a good, large Catholic family that homeschooled her.

Most of the homeschooling programs are using the Great Books program.It is a higher class education than what the public school provides.

Yeah, well as a former traddie Catholic, there were not a few nuts among the traddie circle, but none of it because of homeschooling. Mostly because of the sort of cultish mentality SSPXism and such traditionalism can lead to.

wainscottbl, not to veer too offtopic but I'm loving the custom title bro!

"Aspie weirdo of the forum"

It's funny, my favorite definition on urbandictionary is that of "aspie":

"A superior being, while deficient in chaotic morasses such as small-talk, inferior double-standard-laden customs and values trumpeted by Neurotypicals, and deciphering Neurotypical body-language, more than makes up for it with a sharp, penetrating mind that is highly adept at developing an intense focus on a subject giving them a near-savant level of proficiency, an inborn sense of principles that allows them to develop practically consistent characteristics and values, and an ability to reason independently, reducing their susceptibility to dogma, acceptance of groundless assertions, and the hazards of groupthink."

I guess I am one of those "right winged" non Obama voting guys you talk so eloquently about. Oh yeah, I was home schooled and also went to private school. As someone that is looking at the Orthodox faith and very interested in learning more, I do wonder about this forum. Oh, I am also one of those Baptist who hates the Coptics and think the martyrs are in hell, NOT!

James needs your prayers and help more than your consternation.

This forum is a lot more right wing than left.

Not just this forum...

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I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Well, not all homeschooling parents even use programs. The whole "unschooling" movement explicitly avoids curricula of any kind, instead preferring to let the child(ren) discover and learn about life on their own.

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I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

wainscottbl, not to veer too offtopic but I'm loving the custom title bro!

"Aspie weirdo of the forum"

It's funny, my favorite definition on urbandictionary is that of "aspie":

"A superior being, while deficient in chaotic morasses such as small-talk, inferior double-standard-laden customs and values trumpeted by Neurotypicals, and deciphering Neurotypical body-language, more than makes up for it with a sharp, penetrating mind that is highly adept at developing an intense focus on a subject giving them a near-savant level of proficiency, an inborn sense of principles that allows them to develop practically consistent characteristics and values, and an ability to reason independently, reducing their susceptibility to dogma, acceptance of groundless assertions, and the hazards of groupthink."

It's like someone wrote a condensed biography on me. I couldn't manage small talk even if under the gun, it's for the plebs.

Yep, same here. I went to public school and I may be an Aspie because of it by the way. It's hard to say the cause. Multiple mostly. But I know public schools were horrible. I was picked on, had trouble socializing from the very beginning, etc. Public schools do not make it easy. Good teachers and advocates in the public fora try to, but kids will always be mean to kids that are different. In fact the home schooled people I knew by comparison were less mentally ill than those whom went to public schools. This was among Catholics of the trad and conservative type. My sister had a bit of anxiety, but nothing serious because of school life, but I know people who suffered much worse. There was some disturbed ones whose home school sheltered life hurt them, but most are very social and mentally healthy. It's my problem with the whole criticism of home school.

But I do have reservations. I would likely homeschool or send the to a boarding school before I sent them to public schools. I think one should not be dogmatic about either. Some people want to be tyrants and tell parents how to run every aspect of their child's life, while others think that we live in some world where parents can somehow raise children without the rule of law. Nope, you need the state to tell you how to do it in some way and take your children away if you are giving them a dangerous environment. I think you know both the libertarian type traddie types who think the government has not right to tell the ANYTHING about how to raise their kids, and then those petty tyrants who think that every little aspect of home life is the place of government--cultural Marxists.

Both must be avoided: A draconian government or lazy parents who do not care for their children.

Most homeschooling parents are intelligent and caring parents who want the best for their children.The main reason for homeschooling is to get away from the secular humanism and explicit sex education found in public schools. In addition, the level of bullying found in schools, whether public or private, is intolerable and has led to suicides among children.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:25:37 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Both must be avoided: A draconian government or lazy parents who do not care for their children.

Most homeschooling parents are intelligent and caring parents who want the best for their children.The main reason for homeschooling is to get away from the secular humanism and explicit sex education found in public schools. In addition, the level of bullying found in schools, whether public or private, is intolerable and has lead to suicides among children.

Yep. And everyone should sign the petition to create stricter laws on how schools deal with bullying! Please do

Both must be avoided: A draconian government or lazy parents who do not care for their children.

Most homeschooling parents are intelligent and caring parents who want the best for their children.The main reason for homeschooling is to get away from the secular humanism and explicit sex education found in public schools. In addition, the level of bullying found in schools, whether public or private, is intolerable and has lead to suicides among children.

Yep. And everyone should sign the petition to create stricter laws on how schools deal with bullying! Please do

That petition is out of date. Besides, the organization sponsoring it has an agenda.Is there a Catholic, Orthodox, or Christian group sponsoring an anti-bullying piece of legislation or a petition drive?

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Both must be avoided: A draconian government or lazy parents who do not care for their children.

Most homeschooling parents are intelligent and caring parents who want the best for their children.The main reason for homeschooling is to get away from the secular humanism and explicit sex education found in public schools. In addition, the level of bullying found in schools, whether public or private, is intolerable and has lead to suicides among children.

Yep. And everyone should sign the petition to create stricter laws on how schools deal with bullying! Please do

That petition is out of date. Besides, the organization sponsoring it has an agenda.Is there a Catholic, Orthodox, or Christian group sponsoring an anti-bullying piece of legislation or a petition drive?

Ah, sorry. I signed it the other day and did not check the date when I googled it quickly. Besides, agenda spapenda. If it was in date, it is the main petition (or was). People who are always trying to worry about agendas like you seem to be doing, hinder justice. If there is a petition like it, just sign the petition please and stop whining about it. I'd say more but polemics is allowed, but not politics, so I'll leave it at that. There are times when I wonder who exactly is sponsoring this or that petition but then I realize this is a republic and I have to work with Caesar, even as Cicero.

Well, not all homeschooling parents even use programs. The whole "unschooling" movement explicitly avoids curricula of any kind, instead preferring to let the child(ren) discover and learn about life on their own.

Well, not all homeschooling parents even use programs. The whole "unschooling" movement explicitly avoids curricula of any kind, instead preferring to let the child(ren) discover and learn about life on their own.

Well, not all homeschooling parents even use programs. The whole "unschooling" movement explicitly avoids curricula of any kind, instead preferring to let the child(ren) discover and learn about life on their own.

Forgive Minnesotan. He is from Minnesota. They are all liberals. Just kidding of course...he has a point, though I do not think an exception proves the rule, etc. Fallacies are well...fallacies. But I am going to say he did not mean it as a concrete argument. I hope not. Some homeschooling parents do not follow a formal curriculum, therefore homeschooling is bad....

I am going to give the land of the lakes and nasal sounding friend the benefit of the doubt

Homeschooling is just as good (or bad) as you make it. Due to constantly moving growing up, I've done just about it all--homeschooling, private school, public school, independent study, online etc.--and they each had their pros and cons. Of the group, I'd say both homeschooling and public schooling were the worst. The former because there's no one to go to for help when you don't understand the curriculum, and the latter because there is no room for advancement. You can be way ahead of the entire class and yet you'll still have to move at their pace. It's an unhealthy educational environment and while I can see why some would criticize the abuse of homeschooling, public schooling isn't much better. I thought that independent study was best. It's sort of a cross between the two. You do the work yourself at home and meet with a teacher once or more times a week for lectures, occasional exams, and guidance. It's also the most similar to college and creates an environment where you truly can work as fast as you want. It's how I graduated high school a year early.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that all homeschoolers unschool. I was just stating that the unschooling movement exists, and that it's a part of the broader homeschooling movement. It isn't the majority by any means, although it is growing (along with similar ideas such as free-range parenting). I also wasn't criticizing it (or supporting it), merely pointing out its existence.

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I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.