Idoit40fans wrote:Are you one of the people arguing against the long time ticket holders who are sick of prices increasing? I'm fine with that argument, and i'm find with people who support student rush. It makes no sense to do both however. Not sure how you make an argument for letting supply and demand set the market and yet support the idea of manipulating the supply.

Simple. Supply is always manipulated by how much you produce. If there is always a 1000 to 2000 seats withheld for student rush then the supply is only 15,000 or whatever is remaining. The supply remains the same.

If you think that then you have not read what I wrote and are just commenting now. Its not even close to even a real complaint. That was very clearly stated as an example of the Pens clearly just saving money in a classless way. The reason it keeps coming up is people keep trying to defend the Pens around every corner with poor reasoning on something even as obvious as this.

You still never answer the question, why don't you just give up your tickets? According to you there should be a huge flux of cheap ass tickets everywhere this season so just purchase them on a game by game basis and you'll come out ahead.

To answer both above this year will most likely be my last as a ticket holder. I have been a season ticket holder since 2003, huge fan my entire life, and a huge defender of their prices up until the 2nd year in the new arena. its not the total money of pocket in that sense but it is getting to the point where it is just not worth it anymore.

Also, I cant answer the supply and demand question anymore. its not like it was 3 years ago, not even close, and everyone who doesnt go to 20 - 40 games plus playoffs has no idea about it and is clueless. Everyone thinks Pens season tickets are just so replaceable and I explained at length why this is simply not true. Which in a round about way is mostly my concern moving forward as a fan. There was a steep drop off in the playoffs, people attending meetings with Pens brass have confirmed they are not selling out at gate price (imagine they are not selling out at regular price yet raise season holders prices), people way down on the wait list get tickets every year.

Not sure I understand why everyone thinks its still this supply and demand business as it was before when its not. Or even close.

No, that's exactly what it is. Because if supply exceeded demand then price would drop. Since that is obviously not the case (based on the title of the thread), then demand is still there.

it's not a supply and demand product like a regular product. you buy season tixs and keep the rights to the same seats every year ( the better seats) if you just give up your tixs because of price you can't get same seats back because other people relocate. thats why alot of STH sell seats on ticket exchange. just because i don't want to give up my seats totally don't mean i don't have the right to complain.

the STH is the only one that can fell that way because they are the ones that pay for the team that showed up for 2 periods in the first two games of the flyer series......NO they don't have to win the cup every year but it would be nice if they showed up in the last few.... i look foward to all the rants

Rylan wrote:lol I love the hate on student rushers. Its called investing for the long term business. You give the opportunity for students who don't have the money to buy tickets that often an opportunity to get into the game. Your business theory is so short sighted that it deserves criticism. You are only worried about what's best for you and your fellow STH. Well guess what, by you stating you are withdrawing your season tickets is a huge reason why student rush is important. Because every year there are new people joining the workforce who may or may not be capable of affording those tickets you are passing on. But you know, screw long term investing.

As for the mistakes the team has made are what? They are a for profit organization, if they are barely making it into the black then yes the fans must pay more. Simple as that. But gouging? That is the market for a premium hockey team that is consistently selling out. The Pens do not have the TV markets other teams have to make up revenue. Pittsburgh is a smaller market than other teams, thus have to make their money somehow.

I mean you mention the Rangers and Flyers, two of the biggest markets in the US. Bad comparison.

As for the running off of fans, if people still show up to the arena and the sell out streak continues, then its not a problem. In fact, as long as there are fans in the seats there is no problems until there starts to be a slide. In which case, ticket prices will go down. Supply and demand. Free Market price determination.

The cancels were already commented that many businesses do not take the playoff tickets due to the reasons previously stated.

Again, increases can happen if the market continues purchasing. So its not gouging if that is what the market has determined is a fair price. Just saying.

Omg that as probably the worst reply yet. Itemized responses:

1. Nobody hates student rush and the marketing validity of it. My point is they raised prices so high the demand went down and they had to use it to fill the building. My contention is they sold so many rushers they would have been better off keeping prices lower.

2. I said the rangers and flyers were the only US teams above the pens and I believe they passed them in playoff pricing. We sit ahead of Boston and Chicago which are bigger markets with comparible success and one new building. How you responded to that makes no sense and in fact validates my point. I mentioned them in comparison of oversll prices being the only higher, as being bigger markets and being priced right there with them actually. Comprehend actual words then respond.

3. I have already addressed the bs reasoning of corporations canceling. Why? Because the pens never offered additional packages before ismplayoff season or even any xtra tickets to us. So even if there is some truth to that there was tons more this year so the point makes little sense as the cancels and extra purchases would have been offered the past 4 or 5 years.

4. I know they are for profit. My point is they pushed the envelope this season to the point that too may regular buyers went away, they needed students too much, ticket exchange was a ghost town, and playoffs packages were cancelled in droves and that the wait list isn't the perfect scenario everyone dreams it is. If the cap goes down, we have to trade Staal and cant trade Martin or ZM I think the pens business model will end up being atrocious.

I feel they raised prices past what they promised for the regular season and to insane amounts during the playoffs and cut out things like white out tsirts to make up for too much money they expected to get not coming in.

czwalga wrote:You realize that a good portion of the people on the wait list are on it for upper level tickets/prices right? It's been like that since the waitlist started..... that's why people way down the list get called.

If I was on the waitlist i'd pass on anything that wasn't upper level.

And you think that is the exact reason why so many people far down on the wait list get tickets? Or is that part of the reason? The wait list is only 4,000 or so deep. And people below 500 are getting offered tickets. Even if what you say is the 100% reason (which its not, a lot of people on the wait list have no intention of buying more than the mini plans) it is still not the supply and demand business that everyone is claiming.

If that's happening then the waiting list should be dwindling down to nothing, which it isnt.... Everything you have complained about or used as an argument can be proved wrong when this season starts and there is still a waiting list.

Really it's as simple as that.

If I had a buzzer I would zap it. You can pass up tickets and remain on the wait list and still buy minplans and be guaranteed a certain amount of games at a discount. Many people have already stated this and it has been discussed at length. When they have a wait list but still need 2000 students. For the first Ottawa game in October and the next Tuesday night game and the saturday vs Florida I will still right.

Rylan wrote:STH feel like they are the only ones who have an invested interest in the team.

and what is your "INVESTED" interest

The merchandise I buy. The time I invest. Just because you have the disposable income that I currently do not possess does not make you any better a fan. Goodness, STH act like they are the only ones who give a damn if this team succeeds or not. Everyone on this board gives a damn, and you know what? Guess who buys the *pizza* tickets that you put up on stubhub and *charcoal*? I will. That is generally marked up because I do like the ability to chose my seats and I generally forgot about student rush. So stop acting like a little selfish brat and realize that you and the 15,000 STH are not the entire fanbase. When the Pens lose, it sucks for everyone that is a fan. Not just you.

MRandall25 wrote:THEN DON'T BUY THE EFFING TICKETS IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!!

Jeez. You have a right to say "No thanks". Why aren't you doing it instead of complaining all the time?

This is a board for discussion. Whether it be praise, complaint, humor, etc.

But you aren't discussing. No one has a clue what you are even talking about really. If we say "Don't buy tickets" you go off on some rant about how its not about money. I have followed this thread and I still have no clue what you are talking about. The Pens raised ticket prices because people will still buy them. Its that simple. Its not ballsy or whatever else, its business. You set your prices low to start, then work your way until you find the point where you maximize your profit without damaging your fan base. Just because the Pens don't win the cup every year doesn't mean they don't put on a helluva show to get there.

Webster's definition of discussion: "consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate" So....let me school you yet again. Or better yet, let me put my point in terms that you can understand:

If you ask people to help you out, then they help you out, then you have the gall to screw over those people even though you have a perfect right to screw them over (as the Pens did here) it still looks like you are an a-hole.

No one is saying it's "illegal" to screw them over. No one is stating that the "free market" is not accomplished (since we can spend our money elsewhere).

MRandall25 wrote:THEN DON'T BUY THE EFFING TICKETS IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!!

Jeez. You have a right to say "No thanks". Why aren't you doing it instead of complaining all the time?

This is a board for discussion. Whether it be praise, complaint, humor, etc.

But you aren't discussing. No one has a clue what you are even talking about really. If we say "Don't buy tickets" you go off on some rant about how its not about money. I have followed this thread and I still have no clue what you are talking about. The Pens raised ticket prices because people will still buy them. Its that simple. Its not ballsy or whatever else, its business. You set your prices low to start, then work your way until you find the point where you maximize your profit without damaging your fan base. Just because the Pens don't win the cup every year doesn't mean they don't put on a helluva show to get there.

Webster's definition of discussion: "consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate" So....let me school you yet again. Or better yet, let me put my point in terms that you can understand:

If you ask people to help you out, then they help you out, then you have the gall to screw over those people even though you have a perfect right to screw them over (as the Pens did here) it still looks like you are an a-hole.

No one is saying it's "illegal" to screw them over. No one is stating that the "free market" is not accomplished (since we can spend our money elsewhere).

It just LOOKS BAD for the Pens to do this...plain and simple.

You haven't schooled me, but now that I understand your side finally I can discuss. I just don't see how the Pens are screwing anyone over however. This seems to me that it is a standard practice to raise prices to spend to the cap and field a team in a small market. The Pens need to operate in the black and it seems to me that is all they are trying to do. The Pens are a high class organization (as are all NHL Clubs but the Islanders ) and are doing their best to field a hockey club the city can be proud of.

MRandall25 wrote:THEN DON'T BUY THE EFFING TICKETS IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!!

Jeez. You have a right to say "No thanks". Why aren't you doing it instead of complaining all the time?

This is a board for discussion. Whether it be praise, complaint, humor, etc.

But you aren't discussing. No one has a clue what you are even talking about really. If we say "Don't buy tickets" you go off on some rant about how its not about money. I have followed this thread and I still have no clue what you are talking about. The Pens raised ticket prices because people will still buy them. Its that simple. Its not ballsy or whatever else, its business. You set your prices low to start, then work your way until you find the point where you maximize your profit without damaging your fan base. Just because the Pens don't win the cup every year doesn't mean they don't put on a helluva show to get there.

Webster's definition of discussion: "consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate" So....let me school you yet again. Or better yet, let me put my point in terms that you can understand:

If you ask people to help you out, then they help you out, then you have the gall to screw over those people even though you have a perfect right to screw them over (as the Pens did here) it still looks like you are an a-hole.

No one is saying it's "illegal" to screw them over. No one is stating that the "free market" is not accomplished (since we can spend our money elsewhere).

It just LOOKS BAD for the Pens to do this...plain and simple.

You haven't schooled me, but now that I understand your side finally I can discuss. I just don't see how the Pens are screwing anyone over however. This seems to me that it is a standard practice to raise prices to spend to the cap and field a team in a small market. The Pens need to operate in the black and it seems to me that is all they are trying to do. The Pens are a high class organization (as are all NHL Clubs but the Islanders ) and are doing their best to field a hockey club the city can be proud of.

Ok...point by point:

1. You didn't know what "discussion" was apparently...now you do.

2. Raising ticket prices 40% in 3 yrs and (30% in one playoff year alone) isn't your definition of screwing people who helped keep your product alive and gave it a new home.....ok then. Again: not that they can't do that (they have every right to do it). But, they look bad doing it for sure.

3. Under this increase in your frame of logic, the cap must be going to 85 million next year (faulty logic). And don't say that "we don't know what the cap is going to be after the CBA or if there is a cap yada yada yada. I GUARENTEE you if they are back in the fall on time (or another year lockout), the cap won't be set at 85 million.

4. Quit drinking the Koolaide. The Pens have no more class than the Red Wings, Rangers, etc. Let's put this in a different light: What can the Pens offer YOU PERSONALLY that the 29 other teams in the league can't?Student Rush? LOL Although, I agree with those that state that the Flyers FANS have very little (if no) class.

I think his beef about the student rush is that season ticket holders are subsidizing the student rushers. By keeping a couple thousand seats out of the market, they are increasing the value of the remaining seats (mostly the expensive ones). It is a classic monopolistic practice by company with no real competition is the NHL ticket market. Maybe one of the aggrieved season ticket holder should start a class action suit against the Pens on behalf of all the other season ticket holders.

2. Again, no. They look like a typical business. When people stop buying, ticket prices fall.

3. What are you talking about? There is so much more that goes into the cap since its league wide. But you know, faulty logic.

4. lol what? I said all teams are equal in class (with a backhanded slap at Islanders for giggles). Come on bro, don't change meanings of sentences.

So, please try again and this time actually discuss what I stated and not make 3 points that have no relevance to what I actually wrote.

moondart is very boastful for someone who can't put together a competent post that addresses why, exactly, the Pens raising ticket prices is the equivalent of killing puppies while orphans are forced to watch. Basically, you are arguing with the equivalent of P_G.

2. Again, no. They look like a typical business. When people stop buying, ticket prices fall.

3. What are you talking about? There is so much more that goes into the cap since its league wide. But you know, faulty logic.

4. lol what? I said all teams are equal in class (with a backhanded slap at Islanders for giggles). Come on bro, don't change meanings of sentences.

So, please try again and this time actually discuss what I stated and not make 3 points that have no relevance to what I actually wrote.

1. Nice way to answer that you looked foolish.

2. Let me school you yet again: Name me the "typical business" that raises the price of their product 40% in 3 yrs when their costs have gone down or have been mitigated via someone else helping them out.

3. You failed to answer this question....under your frame of logic: The cap will be about 85 million if your theory holds. Stating "there is so much more that goes into the cap" didn't answer the question. You KNOW the cap won't be at 85 million next year, so you lose here on this point again.

4. You didn't say all teams are "equal in class." You stated "Pens are a high class organization", meaning that they have "higher" class than compared to others. Unless your stating all 30 teams are "high class"? LOL Again, you look foolish doing this dude...I would quit now before you lose all credibility on the board.

2. Again, no. They look like a typical business. When people stop buying, ticket prices fall.

3. What are you talking about? There is so much more that goes into the cap since its league wide. But you know, faulty logic.

4. lol what? I said all teams are equal in class (with a backhanded slap at Islanders for giggles). Come on bro, don't change meanings of sentences.

So, please try again and this time actually discuss what I stated and not make 3 points that have no relevance to what I actually wrote.

1. Nice way to answer that you looked foolish.

2. Let me school you yet again: Name me the "typical business" that raises the price of their product 40% in 3 yrs when their costs have gone down or have been mitigated via someone else helping them out.

3. You failed to answer this question....under your frame of logic: The cap will be about 85 million if your theory holds. Stating "there is so much more that goes into the cap" didn't answer the question. You KNOW the cap won't be at 85 million next year, so you lose here on this point again.

4. You didn't say all teams are "equal in class." You stated "Pens are a high class organization", meaning that they have "higher" class than compared to others. Unless your stating all 30 teams are "high class"? LOL Again, you look foolish doing this dude...I would quit now before you lose all credibility on the board.

1. lol still.

2. What is the cap? Has that increased or decreased? How about prospective costs? How well do you know the Penguins bottom line? Possible that operation costs have increased? If you can not actively look at the Penguins financial statements, then you have no idea the reasoning behind the ticket prices. The Pens wouldn't jack prices up unless it was necessary to turn a profit. Same with every other business in America. lol

3. lol what are you talking about? No crap Sherlock the cap won't be 85 million. The Pens themselves have no control over the cap. I don't even know why the hell you keep bringing that up...

4. lololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. English must be your second language to not understand what I wrote the first time.

To be quite honest, the only reason I keep responding to you is to see what lunacy you come up with next. You continue to outdo yourself in ways that most would find incomprehensible. You sir, should be commended in your attempts to manipulate wording and try to construe statements to try and make yourself appear as though you have made an argument for your side. Unfortunately for you, when you use hyperbole and use that as your only definitive attack that more or less makes you have zero credibility.

You sir, must try harder if you want to legitimately talk about this. Otherwise,

2. What is the cap? Has that increased or decreased? How about prospective costs? How well do you know the Penguins bottom line? Possible that operation costs have increased? If you can not actively look at the Penguins financial statements, then you have no idea the reasoning behind the ticket prices. The Pens wouldn't jack prices up unless it was necessary to turn a profit. Same with every other business in America. lol

3. lol what are you talking about? No crap Sherlock the cap won't be 85 million. The Pens themselves have no control over the cap. I don't even know why the hell you keep bringing that up...

4. lololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol. English must be your second language to not understand what I wrote the first time.

To be quite honest, the only reason I keep responding to you is to see what lunacy you come up with next. You continue to outdo yourself in ways that most would find incomprehensible. You sir, should be commended in your attempts to manipulate wording and try to construe statements to try and make yourself appear as though you have made an argument for your side. Unfortunately for you, when you use hyperbole and use that as your only definitive attack that more or less makes you have zero credibility.

You sir, must try harder if you want to legitimately talk about this. Otherwise,

1. You still look foolish from that originally....even you are admitting that.

2. It won't be 85 million I GUARENTEE YOU. It always seems to increase with the CBA inflator rule. The Pens now have parking, concession, and a better lease with now a 40% increase. Again...let me try again for you slowly: "turning a profit" versus "looking like you are screwing your customers". As I stated several posts ago: The Pens look bad here. Whether their GP was 10%, and it’s now its only 11%: THEY LOOK LIKE GREEDY A-HOLES...PLAIN AND SIMPLE WITH 40% INCREASES. Further, you have NO IDEA that the Pens wouldn't jack up prices without cause just to make more money....that's 100% theory on your part. Again, you look foolish typing that dude. Wow...that was worse than you not knowing what a "discussion" was.

3. You stated earlier that the Pens increases were for a "standard practice to raise prices to spend to the cap". Again, to spend to the cap at a 40% increase, would mean the cap is going to about 85 million. You keep tripping over your previous statements dude....be careful.

4. Again, avoiding this point by LOL. I posted your own words back at you....and you do LOL. Nice stating that I "manipulate" your words. When, anyone can use their mouse to scroll back up to seewhat you typed.