Carleas wrote:The problem with the 'only do natural things' approach is that our current environment isn't natural at all, and not the environment for which we are adapted. Most of our evolution happened in much warmer climates, and later periods were much colder (the last ice age ended 11000 years ago), and the Genes associated with S.A.D. arose farther north than England. Many foods we eat are transplants, most of our local environments are heavily modified by human activities, and our daily routines are generally almost nothing like our daily routines in the 'state of nature'.

It shouldn't be impossible to find artificial lights that faithfully mimic natural lights, because we have good data on the spectrum of natural light and can measure spectra for artificial lights as well. It also seems that the light isn't just about creating vitamin D, because shining extra light on people's skin was found to have no effect on S.A.D. symptoms. And, relevant to the present case, the presence of S.A.D. in the blind lead to the discovery to additional photoreceptive cells in the retina that are tied to S.A.D., that allow the blind to synchronize their circadian rhythm and are also related to S.A.D. In line with other observations, these cells are most sensitive to blue light, which is also most effective in treating S.A.D.

I don't have any retinas. I also have no circadian rhythm and it is always the hardest thing sticking to times every day, for my job, for example.

Carleas wrote:The problem with the 'only do natural things' approach is that our current environment isn't natural at all, and not the environment for which we are adapted. Most of our evolution happened in much warmer climates, and later periods were much colder (the last ice age ended 11000 years ago), and the Genes associated with S.A.D. arose farther north than England. Many foods we eat are transplants, most of our local environments are heavily modified by human activities, and our daily routines are generally almost nothing like our daily routines in the 'state of nature'.

And the reason we can't manufacture B12 and who knows what-all is because we've been too reliant on animals to make these conversions and most of that reliance has come by way of artificial domestication.

To your point about modified food I would submit that ALL of our food would not exist without us, at least not in the form that it exists: ducks, chickens, cows, pigs, corn, tomatoes, potatoes, peppers,,, you name it,,, all was selected for by us and couldn't exist without our stewardship.

Unless one moves to the mountains and learns to eek out an existence on bugs, berries, rabbits and deer, then it is impossible to have a natural diet. Fortunately or unfortunately, we have evolved to be reliant upon our own technology because to truly thrive in the jungle, we'd need the fermenting guts of the apes that live there or else the claws and fangs of the cats, but we have brains instead and our bodies have evolved in accordance with our own artificial selections such that what is truly natural is now deficient and detrimental.

That is why I'd rather listen to my cravings rather than some idealization of what's natural and proper. If I'm wrong, at least I didn't spend a lifetime force-feeding myself bran flakes lol

It shouldn't be impossible to find artificial lights that faithfully mimic natural lights, because we have good data on the spectrum of natural light and can measure spectra for artificial lights as well. It also seems that the light isn't just about creating vitamin D, because shining extra light on people's skin was found to have no effect on S.A.D. symptoms. And, relevant to the present case, the presence of S.A.D. in the blind lead to the discovery to additional photoreceptive cells in the retina that are tied to S.A.D., that allow the blind to synchronize their circadian rhythm and are also related to S.A.D. In line with other observations, these cells are most sensitive to blue light, which is also most effective in treating S.A.D.

Maia wrote:I don't have any retinas. I also have no circadian rhythm and it is always the hardest thing sticking to times every day, for my job, for example.

Interesting. I'm not sure what the limits of propriety are here, so I apologize in advance if this is rude or invasive, and please feel free to tell me to fuck off if I deserve it, but: Do you have eyes? If so, do you have optic nerves?

There are some photoreceptive cells outside of the retina, but I get the impression that most of the actions is in the retina, even for non-visual photo-receptivity. And the observation that light applied to the skin doesn't affect S.A.D. suggests that whatever other non-visual light sensing systems exist aren't playing a big role in S.A.D.

Does it get cold where you live? I wonder if the cold might play a role in S.A.D., since it is common in Nordic countries (though apparently not Iceland, possibly due to significant fish consumption there).

Serendipper wrote:That is why I'd rather listen to my cravings rather than some idealization of what's natural and proper. If I'm wrong, at least I didn't spend a lifetime force-feeding myself bran flakes lol

My understanding is that cravings aren't reliably associated with nutrient needs. While this would be logical, in practice cravings seem to be influenced by psychological and social factors, e.g. "comfort foods" are craved during stressful periods, possibly because they're associated with safety or literal comfort. Pica (eating non-food things like dirt) is associated with nutrient deficiencies, but the causal direction isn't clear, and in any case the things that people are eating don't necessarily help: dirt isn't particularly iron rich, so a craving to eat dirt, even if caused by a nutrient deficiency, isn't related to the nutritional content of dirt (at least, not local dirt; maybe dirt in our evolutionary environment was actually a decent source of iron and zinc).

Serendipper wrote:...reptile bulbs...

What about greenhouse lights? That seems like somewhere that optimizing lights has been thoroughly investigated, though they probably tend redder than what humans need.

What about tanning bed lights? You expressed some concern about the harmful effects of UV lights, but again it seems like somewhere that trial-and-error might have hit upon some good trade-offs.

Maia wrote:I don't have any retinas. I also have no circadian rhythm and it is always the hardest thing sticking to times every day, for my job, for example.

Interesting. I'm not sure what the limits of propriety are here, so I apologize in advance if this is rude or invasive, and please feel free to tell me to fuck off if I deserve it, but: Do you have eyes? If so, do you have optic nerves?

There are some photoreceptive cells outside of the retina, but I get the impression that most of the actions is in the retina, even for non-visual photo-receptivity. And the observation that light applied to the skin doesn't affect S.A.D. suggests that whatever other non-visual light sensing systems exist aren't playing a big role in S.A.D.

Does it get cold where you live? I wonder if the cold might play a role in S.A.D., since it is common in Nordic countries (though apparently not Iceland, possibly due to significant fish consumption there).

Serendipper wrote:That is why I'd rather listen to my cravings rather than some idealization of what's natural and proper. If I'm wrong, at least I didn't spend a lifetime force-feeding myself bran flakes lol

My understanding is that cravings aren't reliably associated with nutrient needs. While this would be logical, in practice cravings seem to be influenced by psychological and social factors, e.g. "comfort foods" are craved during stressful periods, possibly because they're associated with safety or literal comfort. Pica (eating non-food things like dirt) is associated with nutrient deficiencies, but the causal direction isn't clear, and in any case the things that people are eating don't necessarily help: dirt isn't particularly iron rich, so a craving to eat dirt, even if caused by a nutrient deficiency, isn't related to the nutritional content of dirt (at least, not local dirt; maybe dirt in our evolutionary environment was actually a decent source of iron and zinc).

Serendipper wrote:...reptile bulbs...

What about greenhouse lights? That seems like somewhere that optimizing lights has been thoroughly investigated, though they probably tend redder than what humans need.

What about tanning bed lights? You expressed some concern about the harmful effects of UV lights, but again it seems like somewhere that trial-and-error might have hit upon some good trade-offs.

I was born without optic nerves (optic nerve hypoplasia) and my eyes were undeveloped and removed when I was little because of a possible risk of infection. On the plus side, however, I always get to choose my own eye colour.

It gets pretty cold in winter here. Since I'm about as far from the sea as it's possible to get in England, our winters are colder, and our summers warmer, than in most of the rest of the country.

MagsJ wrote:CBD oil could be an option, but may not go with your 'native origin' ethic.

Anxiety and depression are common mental health disorders that can have devastating impacts on health and well-being.

According to the World Health Organization, depression is the single largest contributor to disability worldwide, while anxiety disorders are ranked sixth (9).

Anxiety and depression are usually treated with pharmaceutical drugs, which can cause a number of side effects including drowsiness, agitation, insomnia, sexual dysfunction and headache (10).

What’s more, medications like benzodiazepines can be addictive and may lead to substance abuse (11).

CBD oil has shown promise as a treatment for both depression and anxiety, leading many who live with these disorders to become interested in this natural approach.

In one study, 24 people with social anxiety disorder received either 600 mg of CBD or a placebo before a public speaking test.

The group that received the CBD had significantly less anxiety, cognitive impairment and discomfort in their speech performance, compared to the placebo group (12).

CBD oil has even been used to safely treat insomnia and anxiety in children with post-traumatic stress disorder (13).

CBD has also shown antidepressant-like effects in several animal studies (14, 15).

These qualities are linked to CBD’s ability to act on the brain’s receptors for serotonin, a neurotransmitter that regulates mood and social behavior.

SUMMARYUsing CBD has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression in both human and animal studies.

I'm not sure what I think about the oil, or even where to get it (I believe, however, that it was recently legalised more some medical use), but I've smoked cannabis on occasion. It basically just gives me a headache so I stopped doing it.

What's the alternative? Scientists are constantly changing their minds, research is conflicting, and there is too much variability between people for a reliable prescription.

While this would be logical, in practice cravings seem to be influenced by psychological and social factors, e.g. "comfort foods" are craved during stressful periods, possibly because they're associated with safety or literal comfort.

There could be psychological associations with comfort food or there could be nutritional.

Pica (eating non-food things like dirt) is associated with nutrient deficiencies, but the causal direction isn't clear, and in any case the things that people are eating don't necessarily help: dirt isn't particularly iron rich, so a craving to eat dirt, even if caused by a nutrient deficiency, isn't related to the nutritional content of dirt (at least, not local dirt; maybe dirt in our evolutionary environment was actually a decent source of iron and zinc).

Actually dirt is very iron-rich, especially the red and yellow clays which are mostly iron oxide, but iron isn't the issue; it's calcium and why dirt is consumed mostly by pregnant women and children (developing skeletons).

In Africa, kaolin, sometimes known as kalaba (in Gabon[10] and Cameroon[11]), calaba, and calabachop (in Equatorial Guinea), is eaten for pleasure or to suppress hunger.[11] Kaolin for human consumption is sold at most markets in Cameroon and is often flavoured with spices such as black pepper and cardamom.[12] Consumption is greatest among women, especially during pregnancy.[13] Another example of geophagia was reported in Free State Province in South Africa, where the practice was geochemically investigated.[14]

In Haiti, poor people are known to eat biscuits made from soil, salt, and vegetable shortening. These biscuits hold minimal nutritional value, but manage to keep the poor alive.[15] However, long-term consumption of the biscuits is reported to cause stomach pains and malnutrition, and is not recommended by doctors.[16]

In the United States, cooked, baked, and processed dirt and clay are sold in health food stores and rural flea markets in the South.[17] In the rural areas of Mississippi and other southern states, the consumption of clay-rich dirt has been a common custom and has been practiced by poor white and black people for generations.[18] However, geophagia has become less prevalent as rural Americans assimilate into urban culture.[7]

Bentonite clay is available worldwide as a digestive aid; kaolin is also widely used as a digestive aid and as the base for some medicines. Attapulgite, another type of clay, is an active ingredient in many anti-diarrheal medicines.[7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagia

In the southeast US, calcium is hard to find in locally grown food because of the deluge of rainfall annually. Calcium and sulfur are the main elements leached from dirt in rain; hence why the soil is acid and why the people are stereotypically toothless.

William A. Albrecht (1888–1974) PhD,[1][2] chairman of the Department of Soils at the University of Missouri, was the foremost authority on the relation of soil fertility to human health and earned four degrees from the University of Illinois. As emeritus professor of soils at the University of Missouri, he saw a direct link between soil quality, food quality and human health.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Albrecht

He was referring to the fact that cows were able to discern that grass was merely goosed with nitrogen and is otherwise void of nutrition, so the cow refused to eat what looked lush and green to us and we would need laboratory equipment to determine what the cow can see plainly. He noted that animals have a remarkable ability to instinctually self-medicate.

The instincts of animals are compelling us to recognize soil differences. Not only do dumb beasts select herbage according as they are more carbonaceous or proteinaceous, but they select from the same kind of grain the offerings according to the different fertilizers with which the soil was treated.

If animals can do it, no doubt we can too.

What about greenhouse lights? That seems like somewhere that optimizing lights has been thoroughly investigated, though they probably tend redder than what humans need.

As far as I know, greenhouse lights are high-pressure sodium and metal halide.

On down the page it says "A 1993 study in the US found that ultraviolet exposure from sitting under fluorescent lights for eight hours is equivalent to one minute of sun exposure."

Then there are leds, which are tuned for optimal plant growth by including so many red bulbs and so many blue with a few UV. (I've read a couple reviewers on amazon attributing these lights to cataracts, so always wear glasses around them)

With leds, you can pick any bulb you want and solder it onto the board, but each led only outputs a narrow spectrum, so you'd need a lot to mimic sunlight.

UVA gives a quick tan that lasts for days by oxidizing melanin that was already present and triggers the release of the melanin from melanocytes. UVB yields a tan that takes roughly 2 days to develop because it stimulates the body to produce more melanin.

Several studies suggest that the absence of UVA filters may be the cause of the higher incidence of melanoma found in sunscreen users compared to non-users.[64][65][66][67][68] Some sunscreen lotions now contain compounds including titanium dioxide, zinc oxide and avobenzone which helps protect against UVA rays.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet

So, blocking UVB results in more cancer than not blocking anything.

I can't find it succinctly said, but I know I've read somewhere that UVA and UVB antagonize each other such that the harmful effects of each are cancelled. It's been a few years since I've studied this.

The incidence of skin cancer detected in human populations submitted to high levels of solar radiation seems to be less than what would be expected taking into account the amount of damage inflicted on cellular DNA by solar UV fluence and the repair capability of the cells (Sutherland 1996). This means that (i) the solar UV damaging potential has been overestimated, (ii) the repair potential of the cells has been underestimated, or (iii) the effects of UV in a polychromatic light beam are not the same as those of monochromatic UV, due to as yet unknown antagonistic effects. Although sunlight is polychromatic, its final effect on human skin is the result of not only the action of each wavelength individually, but also the interactions between these wavelengths.

Anyway, I have it in my head, from prior research, that one should not be exposed to sun outside of the 10am to 2pm band due to over-expression of UVA without supporting UVB. One should avoid tanning beds for the same reason. And tinkering with artificial lights is risky.

The sun will never give too much UVB because UVA always exceeds UVB, but artificial lights can. However, most lights will be UVA without much UVB. Rather than all this head-scratching, it's easier to just go outside around lunch time

Cod liver oil usually comes in 10:1 ratios, but who knows if that is appropriate. And sometimes CLO is fortified to meet the ratio requirements and it's questionable how beneficial those fortifications are.

Gaining a full understanding of nutrition with all the overlapping variables is an exercise in futility which is why I've abandoned trying to understand it and have resigned myself to being responsive to cravings.

And after a quarter-century of hard work, they have abundant evidence to prove it.

Give people a sugar pill, they have shown, and those patients — especially if they have one of the chronic, stress-related conditions that register the strongest placebo effects and if the treatment is delivered by someone in whom they have confidence — will improve.

Tell someone a normal milkshake is a diet beverage, and his gut will respond as if the drink were low fat.

Take athletes to the top of the Alps, put them on exercise machines and hook them to an oxygen tank, and they will perform better than when they are breathing room air — even if room air is all that’s in the tank.

Wake a patient from surgery and tell him you’ve done an arthroscopic repair, and his knee gets better even if all you did was knock him out and put a couple of incisions in his skin.

Give a drug a fancy name, and it works better than if you don’t.

You don’t even have to deceive the patients. You can hand a patient with irritable bowel syndrome a sugar pill, identify it as such and tell her that sugar pills are known to be effective when used as placebos, and she will get better, especially if you take the time to deliver that message with warmth and close attention.

Depression, back pain, chemotherapy-related malaise, migraine, post-traumatic stress disorder: The list of conditions that respond to placebos — as well as they do to drugs, with some patients — is long and growing.

Maia wrote:I'm not sure what I think about the oil, or even where to get it (I believe, however, that it was recently legalised more some medical use), but I've smoked cannabis on occasion. It basically just gives me a headache so I stopped doing it.

It's been available at Holland and Barratt for many months now, which eliminates the need for sourcing it online and trailing through hundreds if not thousands of products.

I've been told by those that use it, that it is nothing like smoking it.. I've taken it on occasion myself, and felt light and elated, but not in a high way, so a real mood-lifter, as well as aiding with digestion, pain, and so many other ailments all at once.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

..probably why I've never had a problem with low vitamin D then but other deficiencies, yes.. mainly calcium and iron.

Sugar piils don't work on everyone.. perhaps it depends on the cause of the symptoms, which needs more than a pill to resolve them, and alcohol is not a depressant to all.. as it has the opposite effect on those with certain symptoms, and helps those types relax.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

Maia wrote:I'm not sure what I think about the oil, or even where to get it (I believe, however, that it was recently legalised more some medical use), but I've smoked cannabis on occasion. It basically just gives me a headache so I stopped doing it.

It's been available at Holland and Barratt for many months now, which eliminates the need for sourcing it online and trailing through hundreds if not thousands of products.

I've been told by those that use it, that it is nothing like smoking it.. I've taken it on occasion myself, and felt light and elated, but not in a high way, so a real mood-lifter, as well as aiding with digestion, pain, and so many other ailments all at once.

I've also tried mushrooms, which really are a native species, but again, they had little effect.

CBD oil really works really well.. I thought it would have a negligible effect, so was very pleased when it instantly melted away my fibromyalgic/muscle pain, fatigue, eased my digestive woes, and relaxed my whole being. Now I know why there was a huge push to legalise it.. fantastic stuff!

I do regret not trying it sooner, but hey! better late than never lol.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

Maybe I'll try it, but my worry with all drugs, even natural ones, is that I'll become dependent on them. Not necessarily addicted, just dependent. What I would really like is to do something active, which I'm sure would help (at the moment my evenings are active, at work, and my days not). At school I really enjoyed the various team sports they had, in particular, ones called goalball and squatball, specifically designed for blind players, and also an adapted version of field hockey, but there are no clubs round here I could join, since there are never enough people to form a team.

Perhaps doing some squats and push-ups in your garden might work for you then, followed by running a few lengths of your garden and doing a squat as you reach each end? doing the whole process mentioned for a total of 20 minutes.. the recommended time for reaping the benefits of heart-rate-raising exercise. A few times a week would suffice, and give your body time to recover inbetween workouts.

This should be a real mood-lifter, and is free.. you could also add skipping, jumping jacks, burpees etc. to your workouts, to mix it up.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I very much agree that I need a regular exercise routine, but 20 minutes really doesn't sound like much though. When I've attempted things like this in the past, I've started off with one hour in the morning, gradually expanding to three hours.

Maia wrote:I very much agree that I need a regular exercise routine, but 20 minutes really doesn't sound like much though. When I've attempted things like this in the past, I've started off with one hour in the morning, gradually expanding to three hours.

If I could go for a 5 min run each day I'd consider that a monumental achievement lol. Just getting my heartrate up is all I need to do.

I've given myself a minimum of 3,000 steps per day + any activities I need to do/feel I am capable of.. tomorrow is a new dawn a new day, and I don't think about it until then, so I check my e-calendar before bed and then so to sleep I go.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I set my alarm for 5.45 this morning and did an hour of squats outside. Getting back into this routine will also help me get up and go to bed at something approaching normal times, which is always a serious issue for me. Left to my own devices I would simply sleep and get up when I felt like it.

MagsJ wrote:I've given myself a minimum of 3,000 steps per day + any activities I need to do/feel I am capable of.. tomorrow is a new dawn a new day, and I don't think about it until then, so I check my e-calendar before bed and then so to sleep I go.

You could set progressive goals doing a bit more each day That's my plan, if I can get started lol. I'm always surprised how quickly I come back into shape... if I can get started. The hardest part of any journey is the first step.

Maia wrote:I set my alarm for 5.45 this morning and did an hour of squats outside. Getting back into this routine will also help me get up and go to bed at something approaching normal times, which is always a serious issue for me. Left to my own devices I would simply sleep and get up when I felt like it.

Wow an hour of squats? Seems like you're already in good shape lol. I know what you mean with sleep and sometimes I feel like I'm on a 25-hour day.

Serendipper wrote:You could set progressive goals doing a bit more each day That's my plan, if I can get started lol. I'm always surprised how quickly I come back into shape... if I can get started. The hardest part of any journey is the first step.

A 3000 step minimum works for me, as I also have to take other factors into account on a daily basis of total energy expenditure, and now having added fortnightly weights sessions to my output (and more importantly.. recovery) even more so.

Having said that, my average weekly output varies from anywhere between 20 to 35 thousand steps, so more dependent on necessity of moving, than adherence to a self-designated dogma.

I recommend starting with autosuggestion telling yourself you're ok, you feel good and it will pass.For me I feel that changes the biochemistry inside and not vica versa but maybe doing it from both ends is most plausible and effective.

Meno_ wrote:I recommend starting with autosuggestion telling yourself you're ok, you feel good and it will pass.For me I feel that changes the biochemistry inside and not vica versa but maybe doing it from both ends is most plausible and effective.

I think that would and can set the mind up in a positive place, for receptivity, but the mind cannot cure all ills and ails, but it is a good starting point for what we know we need to do to help/cure ourselves.

Autosuggestion will not make my body create more iron, or any other deficiencies I may have, but it will make me focus on what I need to do inorder to rectify it. Grief cannot be willed away either, even though our loved ones wish we could will it so, but yes.. autosuggestion is a good place to start.

The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite