Rather it was a rhetorical device to attack the government at a rally where Qureshi announced he was joining the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) , the party of former cricket star Imran Khan, a rising force in Pakistani politics. Qureshi’s assertion tapped into growing anti-Americanism, and a populist view that the civilian government led by the Pakistan People’s Party, to which he once belonged, had somehow sold the country’s honour – in this case symbolised by nuclear weapons – in return for American aid. (Pakistan first agreed its uneasy alliance with the United States under former military ruler Pervez Musharraf.)

Yet it is a measure of how distorted and narrow political discourse has become within Pakistan that Qureshi might use the safety of nuclear weapons to attack the government. That political discourse, difficult even at the best of times, is likely to become even narrower in the fury which has followed the NATO airstrikes which killed 24 Pakistani soldiers on the border with Afghanistan on Saturday.

The attack, which Pakistan says was unprovoked and NATO described as a “tragic, unintended incident”, has outraged Pakistanis who have already endured thousands of casualties in a war they believe was forced on them by the United States.

Underneath the confusion about the aims and course of the Afghan war, lies a deep sense of hurt that Pakistani lives are somehow less valued than American lives, and a painful loss of pride over the country’s inability to defend its territory from attacks by a foreign, and apparently hostile, power – whether from airstrikes, drones, or even the May raid by U.S. forces who killed Osama bin Laden.

The result is a society which is being shaped by the Afghan war in ways which neither Pakistan’s neighbours, nor western powers, would choose. The airstrikes, coming soon after the forced resignation of Pakistan’s ambassador to Washington Husain Haqqani for allegedly seeking American help to curb the power of the military, have added fresh oxygen to a combustible mix of anti-Americanism and religious nationalism enveloping Pakistan. Haqqani denies the allegation, but the so-called “Memogate” scandal has badly weakened the civilian government, while the airstrikes have rallied the country behind the army.

In such an environment, there is little room for a discourse that might suggest Pakistanis should also be outraged at the deaths of civilians blown up by suicide bombers sent by the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), and therefore discuss ways to turn decisively against Islamist militants. Nor is there space for a realistic political debate on how Pakistan should manage its foreign relations that goes beyond a hatred of America and an illusory faith in China’s readiness to ride to the rescue.

Expectations that the civilian government could become the first in Pakistan’s history to complete its term and be replaced by another democratically elected government are being lowered by the day as the politicians descend into the kind of internecine feuds typical of the 1990s. That decade ended in Musharraf’s military coup in 1999.

The next casualty of the rising tide of nationalism could well be Pakistan’s warming ties with India – one of the few relationships in the region that until now had been going well. The civilian government had eased itself into the driving seat in pushing for improved trade relations with India, though no one would suggest that it made the progress it did without the approval of the Pakistan Army. It has a particular interest in better ties with India – the army has drawn its power from a perceived need to defend the country against an Indian threat, contributing to Pakistan’s civilian-military imbalance.

Progress in relations with India had become – quite unexpectedly – one of the few release valves left to ease off the pressures building up within Pakistan. On its western border, the United States and its allies are pushing ahead with an agenda in Afghanistan which has already integrated the possibility there will be no early peace settlement with Afghan insurgents – an idea long sought by Pakistan. And while Pakistan won some initial sympathy from foreign governments over the NATO airstrikes, its decision to boycott next week’s international conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, will – at least symbolically – highlight its isolation. It is beginning to look like a country turning in on itself in dangerous ways.

We have always known there was a risk that Pakistan could become to Afghanistan what Cambodia was to Vietnam – a country horribly destabilised by an American war spilling across its borders. We are not there yet. Perhaps those who say all will be well when the United States leaves the region will prove right – American influence for decades has tended to be toxic to Pakistan.

But pay attention to the domestic political discourse. There is no point in winning the battle in Afghanistan and losing the war in Pakistan.

I would be least surprised if tomorrow a report surfaces telling the truth that the Pak soldiers were killed on request of Pak Army generals so that in heat of the moment, the PA could overturn the civilian government. All that these PA generals could care about is power and money and murdering 24 soldiers would be no big deal for them.

One question I have for Pakistanis – since there is such a huge macho feeling in Pakistan about being a mighty nuclear power etc, Pakistan should have gone to war with the US and it’s allies in Afghanistan by now. I wonder why it’s military has not done much other than to whine. You got 24 soldiers killed in one swoop. A couple of your citizens got killed in broad daylight by a CIA operative. US navy seals flew into Pakistan, killed OBL and flew off with his body. They asked for the remnants of the broken stealth chopper and got it back. Their drones are killing both Pak civilians and Pakistani assets. After all this, Pakistani military has done nothing to stand up to the Americans, nukes not withstanding. It is becoming very clear to the outside world that Pakistani military is made up of paper tigers. Not long ago, I have seen Pakistanis pride themselves about defeating the mighty Soviets and their eventual collapse (credits to Americans was quietly forgotten). Now what? How long are your armed brigades stand and thump their chests?

Very good article “Winning the battle, losing the war; the US and Pakistan” it’s pretty accurate.
“The result is a society which is being shaped by the Afghan war in ways which neither Pakistan’s neighbours nor western powers, would choose” I’d like to add here you can also isert ” nore people of Pakistan would choose” Honestly most Pakistanis now feel tired of Afghanistan issues and it’s about time we should say good bye and close the borders and focus on our own Nation building and try to take corrective measures.
Pakistan have lost more than 60 Billion in direct cost of war and many billions more in shape of opportunities.

I think if Pakistan attended the Bonn conference it may be taken as “business as usual” so it’s better to stay away from Bonn conference and let the others nations find a solution without Pakistan. We do not want to sign on American agenda which we know will not work.

“American influence for decades has tended to be toxic to Pakistan” This one sentence truly describes US-Pak relations and “toxic” is Americans coerrsive attitudes and arrogance and bribes to locals to change loyalties. American Senat and Congress commitees make decisions on presentations and hearings. Americans businessmen learn about Chinese ways of life to understand counter partners, where as most American statemen have little inside knowledge of the regional politics yet they hold press conferences and pass-on comments like a King. Senator Kerry promised that legal action will be taken against CIA agent’s killing 3 innocent people in Lahore but he is free and beating up locals in bars.

KPSigh01 & 007XXX
I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.

KPSingh01: Pakistan fought Russia all alone for two years when the Afghanistan was invaded by Russia. We even shoot down their figher plane. FYI Americans joined the war much later. At that time Pakistan was not even a (declared) Nuclear state so leaving the Nuke aside, We did beat USSR as it was called then. By the way India was on USSR side.

Imran khan is a populist political personality and is not a progressive altrnative for Pakistan future. He has a baggage from his ties to the zionist family and is likely to be a security risk. Pakistan needs to form a national army, cultivate the culture of self reliance and reduce emotional rhetorics; the current political party system has proven regressive and must be replaced with a direct democracy and collective Govt. system. The use of terms such as martyr is not called for either, Pakistan military is directly responsible for the thousands who perished in the tribal territory and those who died in Pakistani towns as a result of retalatory actions of Pashtoons revenge. Why blame NATO and not the americans direct? Why allow the airfields to the USA to fly their killer drones and then protest in front of the public against the drones? What is business as usual? Pakistan needs a cultural revolution to understand the title of duplicity that they have now been given by its allies including USA and the UK.
The conditions at the Afghan front are not going to change for the yanks; the closer the they move towards the tribal residents, the closer the Pashtuns are going to spread across Afghanistan, almost encircling the northern alliance territories. The Pashtuns, call them talibans if one will, now move about in the entire Afghanistan with the support of Mr Karzai, and are apparently hitting foreign targets very hard, forcing the Americans to get closer to Pakistan border and beyond(BBC films shws this development). Pakistan punjabi generals should stop sulking and cursing their current allies including USA and the NATO and not repeat what they did blaming India for the debacle in Bengal. Those who do not know should be aware that BBC is the British Govt. entity which follows and supports the foreign policy of the UK govt. Pakistani intelligence must have discovered what we have seen recently that BBC was constantly showing a documentary film about the duplcity of Pakistan military at the time when other western media was showing the border debacle and the funeral ceremony of the dead Pakistani soldiers!

Politicians should carefully use their words where nuclear arsenal is concerned after all nationalism is always superior than politics. Irresponsible statemnets aboout nuclear weopons by the ex foreign minister of the present government is a threat to Pakistan credibility with UN Security Council and the world. Remember they are alreay building a case against Pakistan on how safe the nukes are in a country infested with religious extemism and terrorism. With all due respect to Mr. Imran Khan just a word of advice to keep his party members under control in use of rehtorics where such sensitive issues are concerned. It was certainly not expected from a seasoned politician like Mr. Querishi to compromise on nationalism.

Hope Nato strike doesnot becom an excuse for our etsbalishment to call for emergency situation in Pakistan and dismiss a democratically elected government and not let it comeplte its tenure to play around and bring in its own set up. PTI can do much better for a long time if establishment stops intervening with advancing its popularity. With the wave of change engulfing Pakistani politics PTI will not need establishment crutches but definitley new well deserved faces chosen on merit to gain from this wave. Its the only chance Paksitan will have to survive if the establishment stops interfering where not required.

The ban on the BBC being just another example of how the army is now all about rebuilding its power base and showing all who is the boss.

The Indian PM said he was convinced that the PA supported the peace effort with India. The good doctor got it wrong once again.

I do believe that if there is ever going to be a military take over again, the present time is ideal, its open season on the Pakistani civil establishment. Maybe Imran Khan will be pushed in by the Army as an alternate to a coup.

Facetruth: “Pakistan fought Russia all alone for two years when the Afghanistan was invaded by Russia. We even shoot down their figher plane. FYI Americans joined the war much later. At that time Pakistan was not even a (declared) Nuclear state so leaving the Nuke aside, We did beat USSR as it was called then. .”

Facetruth: “I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.”

I’d like to be on the fore front where there is trouble. This is the forum where we have to make sure lies being repeated are prevented from becoming truths. This is because it involves our country. Matters internal to us – there are plenty there to take care of it. I don’t have to go there and argue. But anything external to our country, we have to give double importance. I do read a lot of forums on matters related to India. But do not see the need to jump in and defend anyone.

@Facetruth
“I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent” I wonder when you will look inside India.”

That’s the point that for problems in our country we don’t sit and shout on forums BUT actually go out and protest on streets, get to system and try to improve it through practice and perseverance. International forums are not for falsely barking about the glory of one’s nukes but are for learning the various opinions of outsiders.

I wonder why no body asks why the hell is Pakistan doing this all? supporting TALIBAN and perhaps other terrorists to the extent that it is ready to lose its own soldiers. I regret the loss of lives whether it is Pakistani soldiers or Afghan civilians soldiers and foreign troops in Afghanistan. But please lets be serious. From one side Pakistan allows the US to exercise drone attacks on Pashtun areas to kill terrorists, from another side it supports Taliban on the ground. Panjab army kills all pashtuns who stand against extremist systematically so that the ground is ripe for Taliban rule. thousands of Pashtun tribal leaders who are anti Taliban are targeted by ISI or at least faciliatated by ISI to be killed by extremist. What about Pashtun lives? arent they human beings? when few Panjabis die, the whole world is crazy. the Fact of the matter is unless you get tough with these Panjabis who do not believe on any values religion or else, you are gonna lose this war. it is as simple as this. hurt them directly so that they give up their double game. there should be a limit that how long lie and double game is tolerated. PASHTUN VOICE

I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan. The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..

Bludde: “I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan.”

The other issue is that the US will punish Pakistan because they could not accomplish their goal in Afghanistan because of Pakistan. At the same time, they would be concerned about Pakistan going the way of North Korea or Burma. Another way they can screw Pakistan is by drawing it into conflicts so that no one dares go into Pakistan and set up business. This will include the Chinese as well. Moderate Pakistanis will bear the brunt of all this. They will be denied visas to the US and its ally countries. These are the people who are progressive and want to get out of Pakistan to have their voices heard. But they will end up getting punished.

“The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..”

China has entered a higher league now. They now need to keep an image of a nation that others can look up to. They will work hard to erase an image where people do not feel secure in dealing with them. If association with Pakistan spoils that new image, they will erase it in a cold blooded way. They might help Pakistan’s military in a clandestine way. As far investments and business, China may not be inclined to muddy its boots by stepping into the region that was vacated by the US for the same reason. If business picks up between India and China, Pakistan might lose all the favoritism it has been getting from China. Money is always important. Why would they spoil it? American and European consumer markets have been bled dry. Demands there will go down for Chinese manufactured products. India will be a new market they very much would like to enter and tap into.

The best option for Pakistan is to give up all its evil acts and embrace the modern world wholeheartedly. They need to erase off their militants ruthlessly and become a civil nation as quickly as possible. Imran Khan can only lead the nation out of its misery if the mullahs and middle age minded generals are taken out completely.

There is another option – go to war with the US. The US has always helped countries it has decimated in the past. It has made them into advanced countries by giving them all the necessary help. May be Pakistan should surrender to the US instead of the Taliban.

Bludde: “I support Imran Khan when he declares Pakistan should divorce itself from the USA and refuse to accept any aid. However, I do not believe his contantion that Pakistan can survive otherwise under his rule because, its a reality that once US AID is cut-off even the Middle East will cease to fund Pakistan.”

The other issue is that the US will punish Pakistan because they could not accomplish their goal in Afghanistan because of Pakistan. At the same time, they would be concerned about Pakistan going the way of North Korea or Burma. Another way they can screw Pakistan is by drawing it into conflicts so that no one dares go into Pakistan and set up business. This will include the Chinese as well. Moderate Pakistanis will bear the brunt of all this. They will be denied visas to the US and its ally countries. These are the people who are progressive and want to get out of Pakistan to have their voices heard. But they will end up getting punished.

“The alternative touted publicly through media sycophants by Kayani/Pasha is to “embrace China” even though they know privately from the Minister for Public Security that China has no intention of getting any closer, and will not risk the inclusion of 170mm or so Muslims fomenting trouble amongst its own Uighurs..The Politburo will not tolerate any effort to dismember China, hence the hard line against the poor Tibetans..”

China has entered a higher league now. They now need to keep an image of a nation that others can look up to. They will work hard to erase an image where people do not feel secure in dealing with them. If association with Pakistan spoils that new image, they will erase it in a cold blooded way. They might help Pakistan’s military in a clandestine way. As far investments and business, China may not be inclined to muddy its boots by stepping into the region that was vacated by the US for the same reason. If business picks up between India and China, Pakistan might lose all the favoritism it has been getting from China. Money is always important. Why would they spoil it? American and European consumer markets have been bled dry. Demands there will go down for Chinese manufactured products. India will be a new market they very much would like to enter and tap into.

The best option for Pakistan is to give up all its evil acts and embrace the modern world wholeheartedly. They need to erase off their militants ruthlessly and become a civil nation as quickly as possible. Imran Khan can only lead the nation out of its misery if the mullahs and middle age minded generals are taken out completely.

There is another option – go to war with the US. The US has always helped countries it has decimated in the past. It has made them into advanced countries by giving them all the necessary help. May be Pakistan should surrender to the US instead of the Taliban.

btw Mr Singh, my post was based on first hand info..I was in the Presidential Palace in April 2009 at a dinner for the Dy Minister of PS who sternly voiced concerns about sanctuary to “Muslim Uighur Miscreants”.. the Military assured them the bases would be “rooted out”.. BUT.. this was the second consecutive visit by the Dy Minister on the same subject and he certainly was not placated by the assurances… Leads one to conclude that the overlords can strut but try as hard as they might, they cannot control sentiment against the ungodly infidels amongst the Colonels and Captains below them in the heirarchy…. btw I take no sides and was under contract as a technical expert on funding and implementing the all important power projects.. severe brownouts still plague the country

Facetruth:I did not see your comments on Reuters “Corruption and India’s 1 percent

T am thoroughly surprised Pakistan talking about Indian corruption because its like India talking about corruption in canada. While we were at the postion of 87 (with a score of 3.3 slightly below china’s 3.5) Pakistan is a whole point under 2.3,
http://www.transparency.org/policy_resea rch/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results”.

KPSingh01: You and your imagination cannot fathom the friendship ties with China. Have you been to China recently, if not go and see how Pakistani are cared with free visa and prompt immigration.

Bludde: Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% of India population earn less than USD1.25 per day. They slums were horrible and she said there are thousand like these in Mombai, New Delhi and other major cities. See that documentary to lighten-up or go and see it your self in India.

Facetruth: ” You and your imagination cannot fathom the friendship ties with China.”

You do not need imagination for gauging geo-political bear hugs. Right now China is giving your country a hug because along geo-political lines, that hug gains them something. It is very similar to China keeping North Korea close to its heart. It has nothing to do with love. Chinese look down upon others. Not long ago your country was the darling of the US and other Western countries. Today they look at you with scorn. Any shift in geo-politics can make China do the same to you. Your country is the one chasing them. Not the other way around.

“Have you been to China recently, if not go and see how Pakistani are cared with free visa and prompt immigration.”

Facetruth: “Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% of India population earn less than USD1.25 per day. They slums were horrible and she said there are thousand like these in Mombai, New Delhi and other major cities. See that documentary to lighten-up or go and see it your self in India.”

No one is denying about India’s problems. The truth is, Mr. Facetruth, India was much worse before. It is enormously huge and incredibly diverse. As a result, changes take place very slowly. Big size leads to inertia. But India is going in the right direction. It will probably be another 50 to 100 years of progress at the current rate for India to cross over the misery line. But that is normal for a nation of that size. India is not gifted with precious resources as much as Russia or the US or Australia are. Despite that, India has worked towards steady progress. What you are seeing is a snap shot of a changing nation. No matter how much you point at India’s weaknesses to score a counter point, the reality is this – Your country is dangerously on the brink. It could have done much better for itself over the past 60 years if it had made the wise choices and done the right thing. But your leaders always thought with their testes instead of brains. The end result is showing.

Facetruth:”Do you think India is free of brown outs, go and see your self, according to BBC documentary shown two days ago 42% ..and all the nonsense”.

Only one question straight on your face “How does our poverty affect Pakistan’s A**?”
The answer is it wont. Our poverty, Perceived injustices (most of its concocted but later on that) to minorities wont affect Pakistan. This is for the nth time, I have been mentioning to guys. No Indian terrorist lands in karachi killing people and blowing Pakistanis just because India is suffering from poverty and other ills, nor Indian government sends religious radicals just because Pakistan is growing super fast and prick in India’s eyes(pun intended).
If there is any country capable to shooting in Pakistan’s foot, it is itself.

We keep talking about Pakistan because its instability affects our Nation. Nobody gives two hoots if your terrorists blow your whole country up unless it start affecting us, the same reason why Yankees are there in the first place. Your impotence in governing your nation had brought about lot of countries (Iran,India,Russia,US,China) into your backyard because every other guy fears that having no leverage in that vacuous region means it can become powerplay of rival contenders.

Now lets understand something complex, the poverty statistics that you see all over the internet about India is old data. The last census on poverty was done in 2004 and published in 2005, which keeps popping up from various authors in analysing country’s discourse. But this is the period, From 2004-2012 during which India has grown rapidly at over 8.3 % compounded. It effectively doubled its GDP from some 951 billion to close to 2 trillion by end of this financial year.

This is the same period when Pakistan faced some of the worst crises and had to suffer near zero growth rates. Even counting for Gini coefficient which is slightly better than India (33 versus 37 in India), due to higher growth that India is acheiving (3 times faster than Pakistan), We are not sure if it is still terribly poor compared to Pakistan.

For example:”http://www.hindustantimes.com/I ndia-news/NewDelhi/Pak-better-than-India -on-poverty/Article1-764089.aspx”
For Instance read this unsuspecting Article, It clearly mentions Pakistan is ahead of India. Right? wrong!! If you read the Article carefully the statistics that UN propped where almost 7 years old, “Around 41.6% of Indians in 2005 were earning less than $1.25 a day as compared to 22.6% Pakistanis”. Here you are, the devil lies in the details. The UN comfortably uses old statistics for comparision and you see the same nonsense spewed by every other socialist in India for his own narrow vested interests. In India the rhetoric of poverty provides great oppurtunites for politicians and their lot.

In any case what stops the Pakistani officials, the pathological liers to the core, to concoct their statistics. People who could lie about Osama can lie about anything about their economic depravation. Some job by Ghairat brigate ain’t it?

My point is how could a country with worse Indicators in every measure (using HDI) can possibly be more richer?
Leaving the merits about who is more poor and lets assume India is more poor.
Still, How does our poverty affect you. If the argument is that India spends a lot on defence, what explains the Pakistan’s, which spends even more to the percentage of GDP. And in any case, You got those super,duper nuclear weapons in the hands of super duper Army generals to safeguard you.

@Sensible patriot
you have not answered the question I raised in my last post?
Do you or the rest of the Indian bloggers ever get the opportunity to watch the latest developments in other muslim countries, all craving for democracy and secular Govts. which are compatable with Islamic laws.

The founder of Pakistan asked for a separate territory for the muslim majority and hence for good or worse Pakistan came into being. His declared vision was to have a space for muslims to develope separately and to unfold their talents with the view to revive the glorious period of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. Since the partition of the country, Indian Govt.by design or default never provided this space to successive Pakistan Govts.

The political situations in both countries have ever since been determined by irrational actions and counteractions, Pakistan falling politicaly into the worst for their flirts and kakaphony with the Imperialists. The Indian born military President of Pakistan facilitated out of ignorance and cowardice, foreigner foothold in the country which Mr Jinnah argued for the muslim people of the sub-continent, thereby destabilising the entire region.

No power in the world has ever defeated or conquered the Nation of Pashtuns and as forecasted previously the foreign armada has been squarely defeated on the battle ground; turning famous marines and seals into night riders. They are on the run now and sooner than the announced period they are going to airlift the boots of the GI’s from the territory, leaving the somewhat stable Pakistan Govt in tatters and anyone with a sound common sense can forecast the aftermath for Pakistan and Afghanistan. I am not going to guess what the Pashtuns are gong to do beyond the takeover of Afghanistan?

In my view it is in neighbours interest including India and even China if necessary to ensure that stability returns to the subcontinent as quickly as possible. Their vision shoud include the stability for the region thereby improving in the quality and improvement in the standard of living for their people. Anyone who hesitates to come forward with such an intent is simply aiming to shoot in his feet.

“Indian Govt.by design or default never provided this space to successive Pakistan Govts”

What Pakistani govts.?? And why is it the responsibility on Indians for that. A**hole Jinnah got his ISLAAAAAMIC country for muslims and so there and then ENDS Indian responsibility to give them SPACE. It is Pakistan’s responsibility to find a political space in international world.

Rex:”you have not answered the question I raised in my last post? Do you or the rest of the Indian bloggers ever get the opportunity to watch the latest developments in other muslim countries, all craving for democracy and secular Govts. which are compatable with Islamic laws”.
Rex, We are extremely glad to see the changing landscape of the middle east and its democratic movements. We remember the good old days of our own democratic struggles with the british. Nobody will be more happy than Indians to see middle east prosper politically since any movement towards democracy and freedom is going to help Indians, who are the major part of the labour contingent ,(along with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) as they would benefit from rule of law and constitutional guarentee of freedom and tolerance.

The middle east is the last outpost in the world which still lives in the yesteryear timelines of theological concepts of society. The democratic experiements with moderate and progressive Islamic laws help in bringing the whole region in better shape than now.

Rex:”His declared vision was to have a space for muslims to develope separately and to unfold their talents with the view to revive the glorious period of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties”
This is an interesting view really because if we try to replicate and do one the dynasties you will undo the other,Since both dynastices were in complete contrast to each other. While Umayyad dynasty were perceived by Islamic historians as more sectarian and treated non-Arabs as lower in privilege and treatement and drawn its legitimacy from Arab descendance.It sure was a military power which initiated the expansion of Islamic empire beyond Arab regions.
While Abbasid dynasty did not believe in Arab superiority and used the resentment of non-Arabs (along with Arabs) to dethrow the Ummayad empire. The Abbasid regime drawn its inspiration from theological roots of Islam and were thought to be direct descendents of prophet muhammed and so never had to pursue for the attachment with Arab descent and were thoroughly liberal in charecter. While christian world was slipping into despondency and theological bigotry, the Abbasid dynasty created the golden period for Islamic empire fusing scientific knowledge of Chinese, Indian and Roman empires and created its own classical intellectual edifice.
The empire parellelly developed its own intellectual capacities in all sciences considered western today by hardcore Islamists be it Algebra, Chemistry, Navigation principles. It had the gumption to develop new philosophies wihich were and sometimes not were in consonance with Islamic hadiths. They had critical view on the Hadiths and even attempted to interpret them in more generic terms to be used in what was known as secular administration.
Their respect for knowledge was unparalleled in Islamic history and truly felt that the “ink of scholar was holy than blood of martyr”. Every religious book has its own liberal and bigoted verses but Abbasids understood the irrelevance of following the entire Koran and Hadiths in fine print and were rather content in exploring and propogating Hadiths which valued knowledge,scientific discovery and tolerance.
Not suprising that while Umayyad’s could not last more than 90 years Abbasid dynasty lasted well over 500 years. It was believed Abbasid’s were more tolerant of jews than Christians in Europe at that time.
Now the interesting part is if the Jinnah and his cohorts were more influenced by Umaydad’s or Abbasid’s because if one were influenced by Umayyad’s then they would believe in superiority of descent and military does seem to believe in this theology through martial race theory. Jinnah may have tried to rally all the support by cleverly recalling both dynasties in an attempt to win support both from conservative and liberal elements among the muslims.Both groups(conservative and liberals) were suffering from inferiority and low esteem due to defeat and decline of Islamic influence in the world and Jinnah used it to the telling effect in creating pakistan. The fact that the state of Pakistan which was unable to decide whether it should go the Iran way or the Turkey way due to Jinnah’s own janus faced attitudes towards social and political attitudes, is the primary cause of its perils.

The comparison of Vietnam and Cambodia to Afghanistan and Pakistan is facile but very misleading. People who want to think clearly about this situation should resist the temptation to make expansive comparisons and instead focus on the particulars.

Pakistan is the author of the war in Afghanistan. Musharaf played matchmaker between the Taliban and Bin Laden in the 90s. Pakistan funded the network of madrassas across both Afghanistan and Pakistan which acted as a Jihad University in providing foot soldiers to the Taliban. Pakistan has maintained militant organizations as security state assets and cynically used these assets to launch numerous attacks in Afghanistan and India. Pakistan’s government, military, and ISI are all deeply infiltrated by jihadists. Pakistani civil society is crumbling along sectarian lines. Anger at the US is the only thing capable of uniting the country now.

The author is correct that US influence has been toxic to Pakistan. In the 1980’s, Reagan and Casey had plans to create 140 million islamic radicals to fight the Russians with no plans for demobilization after the war. When the Russians left, we abandoned them with floods of rebels, arms, munitions, and wars along their borders. The author is incorrect to write off China’s aid. China built and sold three warships to Pakistan that fight Somali pirates, and Islamabad owns the technology to build more vessels. China is building a port and oil terminal at Gwadar west of Karachi. China is building oil and gas pipelines through Pakistan to China. China built and sold several squadrons of combat aircraft that Pakistan has used to bomb al-Qaeda and Taliban forces in Pakistan. China has built other warplanes with Pakistan and transferred the technology to Pakistan for building more. China has other infrastructure projects that will link Pakistan to Iran, Afghanistan, central Asia, and China. These projects will give Pakistan solid commercial and military benefits to ease security concerns and provide economic stability. As the US winds down its wars, China has set up economic prospects for energy, raw materials, and commerce with more prosperous trading partners. That is the secret of China’s success: they trade with wealthy countries like the US and others, but they throw in some infrastructure projects with each purchase of resources to make their trading partners rich enough to buy China’s products. Stupid Americans and Europeans simply grab the resources and run making natives angry and earning future boycotts. The West should learn something from China: invest in your trading partners today for more sales in the future.

@Sensiblepatriot
Not only elightening but an excellent knowledge of history. I have no problems where details or our opinion may not be the same.

The so called Islamic parties are now in the forefront and are receiving the popular vote to form an Islamic secular Govt. in arab majority land.

Unfortunately successive Pakistan Govts. have so far failed to form a Nation of people in the country called Pakistan. This in my sincere view is due to the coloniHow much is due to the stance Indian Govt. took and how much one can relate to the colonial past is for the gistory t judge. My own views are that the Countries in the south east region are the emerging powers in the future and have much in common than what divides them. Indian leaders must develope a long term strategy for the region and not always formulate and act with short term interests and gains. Pakistan, unfortunately because of its own military involvement in politics is now tangled up with the Americans, who are the master of deceit and thuggery in modern times. The weak and incompetent civilian Govt. is unable to disengage their country from them and is simply sulking and showing emotions.

This is not that dramatic when one studies the European history. There is a financial crisis among us but solidarity and common interest for all europeans is the hallmarks of every european country. There are still some unwilling but the majority of the people want a more unified Europe.

I have never seen a post from an american to admit that they have been defeated by Pashtun afghans?Ten years is longer than the period ww2 lasted? Their famous marines and seals have turned into NIGHT RIDERS.Did they ever admit that their massive foce was crushed by the little vietnamese army?
Today in the 21st century they have almost five hundred bases around the world, have structured torture prisons in many parts of the world including the crown jewel Guitanamo.

Their foreign and military policy is based on spins, pressure and clandestine operations by special forces. Why did Nixon have to leave office,whereas, George W was excused and protected by Obama for ordering the torture of prisoners?

Is this now the American norm to exercise pressure on allies and the perceived adversary? Too late for the new secretary of defence to criticise Israel and preach siplomacy in the middle east. Where is the lady in the red, the top diplomat who structured a CIA unit within the State dept. to spy and report on alliesas well. The German Foreign minister was not the only one?

Enough with this duplicity which its ally Pakistan was also lured into, without understanding the American culture.
@Baja Arizona, stop your crap of insinuations and the feed back of the USA media. You have not got the faintest idea what sort of DNA the Pashtuns have.They control the entire territory of the Pakhtoonkhwa and almost most of Afghanistan. President Karzai is a Pashtun and is strictly following the line of the so called Talibans.

Pakistan military has paid a heavy price for allowing the Americans to operate their covert actions in the independent Pashtun territory.

alanchristopher:”The West should learn something from China: invest in your trading partners today for more sales in the future.”

China came up manufacturing good for the consumer markets in US and Europe. They do not have a large consumer market like the Western nations. If these nations go dry because of economic crisis, China will lose a huge chunk of its revenue. They are sitting on top of a huge housing bubble that might burst anytime. Their banks are allocated money by the government that is saved by its citizens. On paper they look better than the Western nations today. But they can fall very quickly too. They just do not have the fundamental infrastructure to revive on their own. Most of their progress is reliant on external business, where they could derive a huge trade deficit advantage (more export of cheaper priced good and less import for domestic consumption). They cannot stimulate economy by pumping money into their population to go forward and spend. Their public culture is not reliant on risk taking. They prefer to save rather than spend. When the majority of like that, it becomes very difficult to stimulate anything if a crisis happens.

Their trade partners are countries like Australia, Brazil etc who do not need China for political support. China buys minerals from Australia and farm products from Brazil. Its strategic partners are different – they have North Korea, Pakistan and any rogue state they can get into in order to leverage gains in geo-politics. For those states, they have a very different approach. All the infrastructure they build there is for their benefit – roads, military infrastructure, ports etc. They care a rat’s ass about the well being of people in those countries. They prefer autocrats who keep the public utterly poor and closed to the outside world.

They manipulate their currency value artificially. Corruption is rampant. All is not rosy with China. They definitely are a global power today. But they need to reform from within and begin to show maturity.

China will trade with anyone. But they get to make all the gains. That is the problem with their approach. At some point others will not have much to sustain that gain. And China will have to face that reality very soon.

Adding to KPSingh01’s post on China. When a culture repeatedly
poisons their own children for a few extra dollars in profit and ships poison laced consumer goods all over the world it is only a matter of time before the world wakes up and realizes that they cannot be trusted. Their products will not find a market at any price and I, for one, here in the US, will not buy anything make in China. Their foodstuffs & consumer products should be banned from US markets by the USDA.

KPS, thanks for sharing this gem of writing, showing the mental condition of people in Hindu-stan.
“Normally, I feel strongly against such blatant violations of the sovereignty of independent nations. But, and only as an exception, I must confess, the US action is giving me immense pleasure.”
This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.

The american media CNN is now struggling with two major issues, one the removal work for the Germans to remove the unexploded super american bomb which was dropped in the Rhein river during ww2 and the other news flash from Iran who apparently managed to bring down the American drone in their territory.
This proves at least one thing that the yanks have not very much improved target shooting since ww2. The american system should not have allowed colateral damage for their plots? Mr Obama new strategy to control the world from the sky instead of boots is not working either.

Matrixx: “This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.”

What this says is – it is good to see Pakistan getting a taste of its own medicine. We could not do anything to Pakistan when it launched its Jihad in Kashmir, terrorized our citizens, sent militants into Mumbai and killed our citizens. Proxy wars are difficult to deal with. And now Pakistan is blaming others of setting up proxy wars in its own territory. If Pakistan is so upset and hurt about its sovereignty after seeing the Americans walking all over them, Indians have every right to feel upset about our sovereignty being violated by Pakistan on a regular basis. That was the essence of this article. But you guys can only relate to hatred. I do not blame you. Such is your environment. Therefore anything said is only perceived only in terms of hatred.

KPSingh01,
It was an extremely good post regarding China.
http://mpettis.com/2011/12/how-do-we-kno w-that-china-is-overinvesting/
The following link is to substantiate your views where the Author throughly argues that its political economy has inherent weakness for exports and depends on investment for growth and its politico-economic edifice stands on clay feet.
We, Indians are aware of these weaknesses but keep calm since our own record is not great regarding some the very basic Indicators in Health,Education with respect to china.
People wont care if you have Democratic setup, rule of Law,Independent Judiciary, Liberal financial markets and Autonomous Banking system and they dont display patience and dont understand that the institutions that matter in making a coutry richer over the time. They just need to make quick buck and measure a country only based on their consumption (hence poverty) so that they can sell some goods. We will remain shut up regarding heaping slurs on others and continue to build our society based on long lasting autonomous institutions (like Lokpal) which we believe is the real reason why West has and continued to dominate the world at large.

Matrixx: “This demolishes your thesis of Pakistan’s India hatred. In fact it is other way around. Care to explain this big bro.”

Could you honestly tell me How you felt when Al-queda attacked Twin towers on 9/11. Was it a “pleasure” or a sense of justice. The arab streets were joyful and many danced when the super power was humbled by that attack. When you feel a sense of justice you get a kind of soothing effect on the mind. Is it a pleasure?
In fact it is!! Pleasure is of many kinds and a “sense of Justice” that happened to wrong doer is also a kind of pleasure which soothes the mind and puts an end to the revengeful mind and ends the recurring (infinite) penchant for revenge.
Its the time when mind says “the wrongdoer has got his punishment and let me get on to some important things of our life”. This is the reason why every religious book, every nation’s constitution talks about justice because it ends this revengeful recurrence in collective conciousness of soceity so that the society can move forward with hope and progress.
I am sure Pakistanis were immensely pleasured by our defeat with China and so were we regarding your defeat in Bangladesh war.
But everybody under their cloaks of decency are happy to see the enemy suffer because it not only gives a sense of pleasure that we call justice but also vindicates that our way of life is the correct one.
It is true that every society has its ideas of rights and wrongs based on its history of experiences, And views differ based on its historical discourse but very few societies have crossed the thin but a strong psychological line of justice.
This line of thought says that If person A how close he may be to your ideas,culture,history,perceived common sufferings has done harm to Person B how far he may be to your ideas,culture,history,Perceived common wrongs against you but still the Person A must get the punishment and sense of justice to Person B.

This is the reason why west has overtaken us in building better societies atleast domestically.They realized primordial loyalties based on common opinion and cultural traits cannot build a equal society.

When India supported LTTE in sriLanka in the belief of common culture and religion, it did not assume that the monster will come back to haunt it and realized that an ideology without a universal sense of justice degenerates into narrower and narrower definition of commonness (a sense of our guy!), though India supported due to common religion and common tamil culture across the border, the LTTE without any sense of Universal Justice (just like India at that Time) believed everybody against its most narrow ideas is an enemy. We suffered and then quietly corrected our discourse, but even after 20 years and building friendly relations with Srilanka we are still seen with wariness in some quarters of the Srilankan establishment.

When Pakistanis send terrorists across the border they do not realize that the building of anomisity is not one sided, it automatically becomes two sided and it may kill few security forces but it impacts collective conciousness of Indians who long for a sense of justice. If you call it our perverted sense of pleasure then so be it.
I dont say every Indian is drawing some pleasure from the situation that Pakistan is in right now, but we sure are laughing at your Military Generals foolishness who seem to be thinking from their A**es.

Humanity is concerned with victims, and show no solidarity with the aggressors. Only zombies derive pleasure from the sufferings of others and even foolishly express it. Please do not include the USA the self named leader of the west, in the west. A Nation which was built on the sweat of millions of slaves and severed its natural bondage with the west after Vietnam. Now it is submerged in hegemonic foreign policy, spy planes and drones.
How and how much Europe has achieved is a separate topic.

@sensible patriot
I have no problem you celebrating the death of Pakistanis, you can hold celebratory parades for all I care. It reflects your mindset. No justification required.
In case of 911 only incident I know is of “dancing Israelis”, your good friends.

Sensiblepatriot: “People wont care if you have Democratic setup, rule of Law,Independent Judiciary, Liberal financial markets and Autonomous Banking system and they dont display patience and dont understand that the institutions that matter in making a coutry richer over the time.”

We are not living for others or their certification. It should be our goal to build a system that has all its loop holes plugged. Developing into a multi-cultural democratic nation, with secular principles and proper checks and balances is a monumental task. It is like nurturing an extremely slow growing and highly sensitive tree. A lot of fundamental work has to be done at the root level. Tremendous degree of patience is required. I am glad that despite the various barricades India has faced, it has moved in the right direction. India was ready for a market economy in 1970. Nehru’s generation of politicians had laid the foundations for the nations with utter dedication. India should have launched into building national freeways, expanding the power system, irrigation etc. Unfortunately India went into the hands of Indira Gandhi and for twenty years it suffered in a dark age. If she had not institutionalized corruption, India would have taken off dynamically right from 1970. India chose to stay stagnant because of its leaders and allowed China to take the opportunity in 1978. Had India made the move in 1970, it would have been a complete super power by now. In 1991, not much was needed to be done. They just opened the markets and India grew like a bean stalk. This is because India had been ready for this since 1970. A lot of unnecessary disillusionment had been created by the Indira Gandhi clan. The Americans would have seen the potential and switched sides long ago. Anyway, it is not too late. India is on the right path. We need more Anna Hazares today to bring awareness in people to demand their fundamental rights.

“We will remain shut up regarding heaping slurs on others and continue to build our society based on long lasting autonomous institutions (like Lokpal) which we believe is the real reason why West has and continued to dominate the world at large.”

In the long run, a slow and steady growth always wins. We should not rush looking at China’s meteoric rise. Sometimes such growths without a proper foundation will make the system buckle and fail. Making money alone is not an indicator. All round growth is needed. An environment that creates free thinkers and leaders should be the goal. Otherwise a nation can become like China or Korea where people work like ants and do not lead by creativity. They can copy and mimic processes invented by others and mass produce. But they just cannot create anything new. India has chosen to go along the American and European path where slow and steady progress leads to an environment that will encourage creativity. That is one reason why the US dominates the world in almost all fronts. It has taken them 200 years to achieve that. I am glad to see India going along the right path.

KPS
Did’t you just say it is ok to celebrate death and mayhem, so why do you turn around and say look here what others are doing. Would you also post the pictures of mass graves, torture and rapes from Kashmir and other parts of Hindu-stan and all of you can celebrate on this blog. Is your heart too sensitive for all things Bharat.

Matrixx: “Did’t you just say it is ok to celebrate death and mayhem, so why do you turn around and say look here what others are doing. Would you also post the pictures of mass graves, torture and rapes from Kashmir and other parts of Hindu-stan and all of you can celebrate on this blog. Is your heart too sensitive for all things Bharat.”

I did not say it is ok to celebrate death and mayhem. I just posted an Indian’s view that when Pakistan looks embarrassed at not being able to retaliate against the Americans, it makes the Indians happy. Because we have not been able to retaliate against Pakistan when it uses proxy elements to hurt India. The problem lies in your interpretation.

As far the dead in Kashmir, if you can separate out those who fell for the bullets from your Mujahideen and those who died at the hands of our soldiers, that would be a great help. From our standpoint, most people died at the hands of your brothers. Now you do not hear of so many deaths in Kashmir because your brothers are busy running and hiding from drones.

@Matrixx
“In case of 911 only incident I know is of “dancing Israelis”, your good friends.”

Because YOU don’t know does it mean that incidents did not happen?? You have shown your narrow mindedness beyond any doubt. World and its truths are beyond mine and yours imagination. Facts are often stranger than fiction.

Matrixx: ” I’ll have to check with ISI if they include digging mass graves in training”

Sure. Contact Major Iqbal there. He might tell you how to kill off anyone who does not align with Pakistan’s doctrine and make the Indians take the blame for it. Also ask him how Pak military managed to get away with its genocide in East Pakistan. He might teach you a thing or two. It might come in handy when the Taliban takes over Pakistan. You might have learn how to switch sides without anyone noticing. Your military is very good at that. And it might come naturally to you as well.

Rex:”Humanity is concerned with victims, and show no solidarity with the aggressors”.
Depends who your aggressor is, For the israelis its the palestinian terrorists and for the palestinians it the Israeli predatory state.Humanity is not a monolith entity which is only on your side and sympathising on your idea of victimhood. So if you are guy from the middle east who is culturally closer to Palestinian,due to primordial loyalties, you are bound to be sympathetic to their cause.
Similarly if you are a jew, you are likely support the Israel since Jews were wronged historically and only trying to reclaim their lost land. But that is not my point.
In an unending cycle of voilence, it is imprudent to identify and find who started it first because the other is unlikely to relent. The truth may well be on one of the two sides or the real source of problem lies elsewhere. In this case, Europe (your favourite continent) may be the source of the problem which relocated the jewish problem to middle east, but unless both sides of the conflict do not identify their own mistakes, it is unlikely that the conflict may ever end.

India has acknowledged its past mistakes in Kashmir be it human rights abuses or state atrocities, the Hurriyat acknowledged that it turned a blind eye and sometimes encouraged the militant elements in kashmir which caused unending cycle of voilence, which Paksitan has only taken it as an advantage and stoked it even further. Indian government and Hurriyat now are on a path of reconciliation resulting in uncomfortable peace, uncomfortable may be, but nevertheless still peaceful. This is the reason Pakistan finds so hard to stoke the fires of insurgency at the same level as in 90’s. The terrorists who enter Kashmir are shot in few days by the Army as the state support has waned for these terrorists.
Unless Pakistan reconciles its past mistakes and regrets some of its doings, it is unlikely to realize the futility of sending trained terrorists across the border.
Till that time Indians see Pakistan as unrelenting and irredentist in attitude. Since Indians were unable to provide justice to our victimes (eg:Mumbai citizens) by punishing Pakistan, the next best thing for them is to feel a sense of justice and be relieved when Pakistan is being kicked by somebody else.
I am sure many countries in Europe wanted to kill Hitler during world war but when they realized that Hitler is dead most of them felt a sense of justice to the victims and relieved too. If Hitler had reconciled his actions and felt regret about it (hypothetically an impossibility) he would have atleast saved Germany from bombings by allied forces if not himself.
REx:”Only zombies derive pleasure from the sufferings of others and even foolishly express it”.
Again, depends on who “others” are? How do you feel when your favourite Hero of hollywood bangs the bad guy when this badguy wrongs your favourite Heroine. By showing little pleasure in that, do we all become zombies too.
Or On a lighter note, showing pleasure for the suffering of Harbajan singh (Indian bowler) who is picked up for a six by Pakistani batsmen makes you zombie too.

Matrix: “I have no problem you celebrating the death of Pakistanis, you can hold celebratory parades for all I care. It reflects your mindset.”

For all I know, Even pakistanis were celebrating the death of Pakistanis, the terrorist yahoos along the Af-Pak border were afterall Pakistani citizens too. When they were hunted down by your Army, the public in pakistan lauded its bravery and the Army took all the credit that comes with it and the money that comes from Americans.
It was not a surprise to us when Mike mullen claimed that Haqqanis were the veritable Arm of the ISI (which itself is a veritable Arm of the Army), and so when American forces killed those 24 men of your Army we were not drawing pleasure for thier deaths but were sure laughing at the embarrassment of your Kayani and foolishness of his policies who we think is the main architect of the Mumbai massacre. This guy planned it in order to claim legitimacy for his disproportionate power he enjoys (see wikileaks). We may sympathise with families of those individual soldiers, but we are hoping to see your army gets even more discredited so that either it will reconcile and regret its actions one day fastening the policy reversal of proxy terror or better,the civil society takes hold of this “super state” (the army) and keeps it firmly under its control.

So, Allahs’s Sunni Taliban Pashtoon Army MURDERS Allah’s Shia men (http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/12/0 6/afghanistan-blast-idINDEE7B504Y2011120 6). I wonder whom and how, Allah will punish but it must surely be ashamed of its men. But then who is now dancing and enjoying this murder?? Allah’s Army Taliban??? Did someone say Muslim Brotherhood or did I hear Ummah?? Yes Matrixx??

This attack clearly shows the bonding of brotherhood in muslim world. Somehow I think Shiites have been more at receiving end of Sunni extremism who in turn claim to be sole owners and brokers of Islam. So much for Islam!!

sensiblepatriot: “Since Indians were unable to provide justice to our victimes (eg:Mumbai citizens) by punishing Pakistan, the next best thing for them is to feel a sense of justice and be relieved when Pakistan is being kicked by somebody else.”

Mumbai attacks were staged by Pak Military/ISI using proxy elements in order to push India into sending its troops piling up at its border. That would have invited Pakistan to amass its troops on its Eastern border causing pressure on the Americans. And the Americans would have had to resort to offering concessions to Pakistan in order to convince them from withdrawing troops on the Western border. They could have avoided Swat and South Waziristan operations. Musharraf tried this and succeeded when his proxy elements attacked the Indian Parliament. To his advantage India had BJP in power then. Man Mohan Singh is much more docile and just did not let anything fall into Pakistan’s game plan. And the attempt backfired on Pakistan, exposing its complicity to the whole thing. It pushed the Americans towards the Indian side more. Basically, through Mumbai attacks, Pakistan shot itself in the foot. It was the starting point of them losing their credibility and becoming known for double dealing and duplicity.

24 terrorists were legitimately killed by Nato forces. These terrorists were the uniformed variety belonging to the PA. Non-uniformed terrorists belonging to the other wings of PA like LeT, etc have killed thousands of innocent civilians in India, Afghanistan.

Pakis have a good sense of humor. Their chest beating over the deaths of 24 terrorists is proof.

About MM Singh being “docile”, not sure if this is accurate. Previous amassing of Indian troops in response to the paki terrorist attack on Indian parliament didn’t work so well. MMS and Indian military knew this.

You missed the point I was not refering to different parties who are fighting each other. I was talking about victims and victims only. Those who suffer and die, regardles of who is at blame.
I was sad about the people who lost their lives on sept 11 and was equaly sad about the sikhs who lost their lives in their holy shrine. I feel sorry for the uk lads as well as the french and Germans who were killed in Afghanistan and equaly i mourn the death of Pashtun Afghans who are loosing their lives in Afghanistan. I am aware that the confrontation +between the Indian orange brigade and the Pashtun jehaadi outfit has not yet occured and I very much hope that it does not, since India like the USA is going to hold Pakistan responsible for it

007xxx: “This attack clearly shows the bonding of brotherhood in muslim world. Somehow I think Shiites have been more at receiving end of Sunni extremism who in turn claim to be sole owners and brokers of Islam. So much for Islam!”

These people are war mongering in nature. They like to be in some conflict or the other. They find unity only if there is an enemy. In the absence of any enemy, they tend to turn on each other. This need for an external enemy – Zionists, Hindus, infidels, communists, Capitalists and so on. They want to earn a livelihood by milking the countries that want to use their territory as a war zone. There is no interest in building a nation and strive for a prosperous life. When the external enemy is not present, they start fighting each other – Shias, Ahmedias, and ethnic groups. That is all they have from an age old tribal mentality. They pride themselves about plundering other cultures. When that is the mindset, it is not surprising that they are blowing each other up. I am glad Pakistan was created and sent off on its own path. I just do not want their embers falling into our yards. I’d let them burn their house down and fight the fire. This is all they have been doing for centuries – fight, plunder, loot, fight for share of the booty, rest, and go back to fighting again. It is better to leave them engaged in their own internecine wars and feuds so that they can leave the rest of the region alone.

007xxx: “This attack clearly shows the bonding of brotherhood in muslim world. Somehow I think Shiites have been more at receiving end of Sunni extremism who in turn claim to be sole owners and brokers of Islam. So much for Islam!”

These people are war mongering in nature. They like to be in some conflict or the other. They find unity only if there is an enemy. In the absence of any enemy, they tend to turn on each other. This need for an external enemy – Zionists, Hindus, infidels, communists, Capitalists and so on. They want to earn a livelihood by milking the countries that want to use their territory as a war zone. There is no interest in building a nation and strive for a prosperous life. When the external enemy is not present, they start fighting each other – Shias, Ahmedias, and ethnic groups. That is all they have from an age old tribal mentality. They pride themselves about plundering other cultures. When that is the mindset, it is not surprising that they are blowing each other up. I am glad Pakistan was created and sent off on its own path. I just do not want their embers falling into our yards. I’d let them burn their house down and fight the fire. This is all they have been doing for centuries – fight, plunder, loot, fight for share of the booty, rest, and go back to fighting again. It is better to leave them engaged in their own internecine wars and feuds so that they can leave the rest of the region alone.

Netizen:
“24 terrorists were legitimately killed by Nato forces. These terrorists were the uniformed variety belonging to the PA.”

-You idiot, these 24 young and brave officers and men came under attack by NATO/US forces unprovoked and retaliated with whatever weapons they had. They were martyred and are remembered what they were, brave men. In return Pakistan has kicked the US out of one airbase, pulled out its officers from border coordination centres, suspended NATO supplies and boycotted the Bonn conference. You Indians remain the most coward petty minded crooks I have ever come across.

KPSingh:
“While we are evaluating our merits and demerits, Lashkar e Jangvi, a Pakistan based militant group has taken responsibility for blowing up Shia pilgrims in Kabul.”

-Under the present circumstances, any millitant group could pick up the phone and call a news agency claiming responsibility of attack. Who is the authentic source that has claimed that certain millitant group based out of Pakistan has carried out the attack on Shias in Kabul? And FYI it is not even Lashkar e Jhangvi, infact it is claimed by one named ‘Lashkar-e-Jhangvi Al Alami’ or ‘Asian Tigers’ a further splinter group offshoot of LeJ. There will be claims and counter claims, Afghan Taliban have avoided sectarian attacks. So they can be ruled out. Pakistan itself has successfully managed to safeguard all Moharram shia processions and there has been no attacks this year inside Pakistan due to hard work by law enforcement authorities. I think it is Afghanistan governments responsibility to beef up security and ensure such attacks are prevented. Blaming it on Pakistan or any group based out of Pakistan is incorrect. Dont think everything that NYtimes, Fox news, guardian or BBC tells you is true. Reality is much different than what is being reported in mainstream media for public consumption and ignorant folks. Don’t fall for it so easily.

-Idiot, good news for you is US has been kicked out of one airbase in Pakistan, NATO supplies remain suspended to Afghanistan and it will start to bite after one month. For now the blockade will continue, also Pakistan Army high command in a communiqué to all forces stationed at the border has suspended the chain of command. This gives local commanders full permission to retaliate without any required authorization and if under attack to respond according to the developing tactical scenarios. Lets see if NATO helicopters can agian come near Pakistan Army checkpost equiped with shoulder fire missiles for example. Cut off NATO supplies, continue blockade, Thanks Pakistan Army!

Umaripk:”Lets see if NATO helicopters can agian come near Pakistan Army checkpost equiped with shoulder fire missiles for example. Cut off NATO supplies, continue blockade”
Nice to hear that, lets see then how Pakistani establishment deals with NATO or pukes the initial bravado.
Its like “Agar dosti tha..toh usme daraar aagayi, agar dosti hi nahi thee toh is napak mohabbat ka nakhab to utar gaya”.
If there was alliance then fissures have become extensive, if there was only pretension of sorts then atleast the mask is off now.

it is only USA who is pampering terrorism across the world to destablise the regional powers for its hideou objectives. the actions USA is taking are in fact triggering the anti USA sentiments, means america is increasing its enemies in the world. to root out the terrorism from the world we have to focus the root causes of terrorism. we must finance the education, health and social sectors in third world countries.

PAK ARMY is the best in the world..BRAVEST,TOUGEST if they can defeat a power like USSR then can NATO AND U.S within few months…US is crying like baby and came to pakistan 4 help….still is crying and always will…

The natives are out with drum beats, displaying the standard features of ANGST and SCHADENFREUDE! How low a human specie can stoop to?

I would not wish to have them as my neighbours!

Pakistan should send their engineeers to Iran as the Russians and the chinese have done and copy the drone which came down in Iran; a good product for export. I would not be surprised if the kite was brought down by a Pashtun computer hacker?

Let us see who blinks first. I wonder why Pakistan did not tell America to take a hike when Armitage asked Musharraf if Pakistan was with them or against them. At least Pakistan could have kept all the brotherhood on its side instead of getting its rear end getting blown up by home grown militants. Let us see what happens now.

As the US has completely vacated the Shamsi airbase and Pakistan Army has taken control of the base, naturally the next step is to shoot the drones out of the sky. Next is the deployment of air defence weapons along the Afghan border.
http://dailymailnews.com/1211/10/FrontPa ge/index.php?id=1

This is what an airdefence weapon could look like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anza_%28mis sile%29

Umairpk: “naturally the next step is to shoot the drones out of the sky. Next is the deployment of air defence weapons along the Afghan border.”

The question is this: Why did Pakistan not do this when the US decided to go to war with Taliban in 2001? Pakistan could have refused any cooperation with the US then and switched sides. With all the militant roots inside Pakistan, it was only a matter of time before the war efforts zeroed in on Pakistan itself. The killing of Osama Bin Laden inside Pakistan was the culmination of that build up. In retrospect, one can say that Pakistan is entirely responsible for the deaths of its own citizens and soldiers by allying itself with the US in 2001. It does not take a school kid to foresee what the outcome would be when all the villains sought by the cops are based in Pakistan.

Is Pakistan preparing for a war with the US? Any shooting down of American missiles or planes or soldiers will trigger the next war between Pakistan and the US. The US has realized that it has been fighting shadows in Afghanistan all these years. It will come for the big kill. It probably is zeroing in on the final plan. Is Pakistan really prepared to face it? Saudis will not help Pakistan. They need the US more than they need Pakistan. Chest thumping and bravado will not cut it. Obama’s term is nearing its end and he may not win the next time – unless he is able to rally the American public by triggering a war with Pakistan. Wars always unite people against the national enemies. It will do the same in Pakistan. But in terms of strength and endurance, Pakistan won’t be able to stand up to the US. By now the US knows where all it can strike deep inside Pakistan. It can rattle your country tremendously. Divisive forces inside Pakistan might try to strike a deal with the US and tear it apart from inside. Have your leaders thought of all the consequences? A couple more weeks of NATO oil supply choke can lead to full scale war. Your nukes won’t make a dent on the US.

It is a very interesting time in history. I am glad I get to be a spectator instead of being in the middle of it.

Ganesh: “If the US attacks Pakistan, I somehow don’t think Rawalpindi will be content to let India remain a spectator.”

Do not worry – we have Man Mohan Singh as our PM. He might retaliate with bouquets across the border.

The US might use any attack on India as further excuse to go after Pakistan’s nukes. An attack on India might work to the advantage of the US. They might even try to provoke something of that sort to get their support. The US might use Indian bases to attack Pakistan. Pakistan will not be able to take on a double US/Indian onslaught. They are better off taking on the US alone without drawing India into the conflict. It would be suicidal for them. India would want to repeat a Bangladesh or two if Pakistan provokes it. And the Americans might go along with it. Pakistani leadership has to think with its head for a change. Bravado will lead to complete self destruction.

Pakistan does not need the missiles to shoot down a drone! Indications are that one of the young Pashtuns IT(hackers) did manage to bring down the drone which landed in Iran?
Iran is most probably going to start their production for sale to other markets in the near future.

A real set back for the USA administration whos new strategy was to control the skies with drones without any boots on the ground! The clintonians have already started the cold war with Russia! The stakes are getting higher and in the mean time India and Pakistan can have the pause.

All you guys have no concept of international politics and how it works, Way back in march I told you that international alignments are changing but such changes occur slowly and in uneven flow that most people miss it. Let me give you couple of hints:
Drones don’t have much military significance. These are tools to terrorize population. Any military worth their salt could easily shoot them down. It is only high tech in communication system. Chinese could build and deploy in thousands, Don’t worry, be happy that you are not part of target population.
The real problem for NATO is logistics and by shutting down the supply routes it has handed Russia hang man’s noose. There is about six week window for them to put NATO in its place. Wait and see.

Matrixx: “The real problem for NATO is logistics and by shutting down the supply routes it has handed Russia hang man’s noose. There is about six week window for them to put NATO in its place. Wait and see.”

Americans have been too nice to Pakistan and had turned a blind eye to all its nefarious activities until 9/11 happened. Until then the US did not care if Pakistan was setting fire to its neighborhood. After 9/11, it has been a slow and steady degradation in the relationship – Kerry Lugar bill, shutting down all terrorist missions inside Indian held Kashmir, Swat and South Waziritisan and so on. Pakistan had been forced to do things it did not want to. Frustration has been growing and it turned rapid after the US deeply embarrassed Pakistan by exposing its duplicity and double dealing through the smooth operation that killed Bin Laden inside a Pakistani guest house. Pakistan has been itching to show its frustration openly for a while and the killing of 24 soldiers by NATO. I am sure the US has more alternatives for its supplies (which will cost more), but then they do not have to rely on Pakistan. If the US demonstrates that, they can afford to punish Pakistan. The US knows clearly now that its mission in Afghanistan was entirely derailed by Pakistan. They assumed that Pakistan will fall in place on its own as a long term ally. But they now the truth now. Just to demonstrate to Pakistan that they can do as they please, they might knock out yet another Jihad head inside Pakistan soon. This is probably Mullah Omar or Jawahiri or Haqqani. These guys must be shivering inside the ISI’s secret guest house. If I have to choose one amongst these three, my choice would be Haqqani. That is all we are waiting for next. One target at a time. Pak military is going to stand with its trousers down to the ankles as the Americans take out the elements.

War on Terror is in fact war between intel agencies of various countries including India. Mukti Bhini and Tamil Tigers did not grow on trees. Study what happened in Libya, where Islamic terrorists were fully supported by NATO do gooders. What do you have to say about that?

American are spending billions on war efforts and too little for the welfare of Afghans and President Hamid Karzai should be ashamed that there are millions of refugees still living in Pakistan & Iran yet he never stops blamming Pakistan.

Fact is that President Hamid Karzai and American contractors attached to military or commercial undertakings in Afghanistan are making millions so why should they try to make peace?

India-Russia defence pacts and hardware sales and deep deep relations need to be carefully examined by Americans, I think India is trapping Americans in to a position similar to USSR defeat. Sweet revenge by old comrades !!!

@Matrix
You are addressing a zombie, whose soul left him when his ancestors shrine came under attack from the Indian lady! A sad story of a person who according to his own post would prefer to live in his ancestoral home but was forced to move over to cold Canada.
He knows bugger all about either Pashtuns or Pakistan but continualy believes along with his compatriots that they could be cowed down by the powerful America.

No super power can retain its status on weak economy and I phones and I pads or dron technologies. The USA state dept. has by design or incompetence have got themselves involved in cold war with the Russians as well as the chinese. Pakistan military strategist are apparently aware of this development and are likely to harden their position with USA.
The pack of cards must be remixed in 2012?

> The real problem for NATO is logistics and by shutting down the supply routes it has handed Russia hang man’s noose. There is about six week window for them to put NATO in its place. Wait and see.

Can Pakistanis think beyond six weeks? Is strategic myopia pervasive in your general population and not just a sign of “military intelligence”?

Let’s say your fondest dreams come true and the US is forced into a humiliating withdrawal from Afghanistan. What happens to Pakistan thereafter, eh?

Pakistan and China will join hands and rule over everybody from Central Asia down to the South China Sea, right?

Wake-ey, wake-ey.

1. What is the incentive for the US to continue to aid Pakistan in any way once they are out of the region? Yes, Pakistani bravado says “please stop your aid”, but what will happen when it really does stop?

2. Remember that all other sources of funding (e.g., IMF) are influenced by the US and can be shut off with a nod. The US is a vindictive power and will not forgive what it sees as treachery by a putative ally resulting in its humiliation. Saudi Arabia will not defy the US to support Pakistan. The screws will begin to tighten from all directions.

3. Everyone knows what happened to the Iranian armed forces once the US umbilical cord was cut. How long will Pakistan’s F-16s and P-3C Orions keep flying? Does Pakistan manufacture spare parts indigenously? Do you seriously think the JF-17s will simply take their place?

4. How long will the Pakistani state remain solvent once US and related aid dries up? The state is already bankrupt, and the situation will just get formalised when lenders back out.

Perhaps that’s the reason for the recent support in Pakistan for trade normalisation with India. Suddenly, the Pakistanis have discovered a long-lost brother living right next door! Imagine that!

In sum, I agree with you that things don’t look good at all for the US in Afghanistan. But once the inevitable US withdrawal from the region is complete, things start to look really bad for Pakistan. 2011 will seem like a wonderful year in retrospect, by the end of 2012.

> we have Man Mohan Singh as our PM. He might retaliate with bouquets across the border.

No offence, KP, but after IK Gujral’s winding down of RAW’s presence and MMS’s willingness to sell off the store, I have begun to believe that Punjabis should never be allowed to become PM of India. Their brotherly sentiment (which goes unreciprocated) does India a huge disfavour.

I wonder if Pakistan’s leaders (civilian and military) realise that they only have until 2014 to square things with India. Once the old man goes at the end of his term, India will almost certainly become more hawkish and assertive, and Pakistanis will realise what it means to have all the nasty things they say about India’s intentions and actions actually come true.

Matrixx: “Your fixation on Pakistan and Pushtuns is unhealthy. War on terror is fake and you can stay in that mode”

If war on terror is fake how did your country become an ally in it, that too on the fore front? That was the proud claims your leaders were making when the going was good.

“You will soon find out that there was no Osama in Abbotabad unless Obama dishes out a few billion bucks to buy the Commission’s report.”

Yeah right! 9/11 never happened. Holocaust is a fabrication. No one landed on the moon. What else is making circles in Pakistan?

“Atleast, you should appreciate that there is never a dull moment in Pakistan to keep your hate genes dancing. I wonder what you do in your homeland for fun?”

We honestly do not care what happens in Pakistan. The only thing that keeps us engaged is due to the volatile nature of the Af-Pak region. Unfortunately we are sitting right next to it. Therefore we have to watch each and every event that unfolds in this place. I no longer see Pakistan as a separate issue. To me both Afghanistan and Pakistan have the same destiny. They are inseparable twins in terms of their final fate.

Ganesh: “No offence, KP, but after IK Gujral’s winding down of RAW’s presence and MMS’s willingness to sell off the store, I have begun to believe that Punjabis should never be allowed to become PM of India. Their brotherly sentiment (which goes unreciprocated) does India a huge disfavour.”

It is not just Punjabis. Any leader other than the Indira Gandhi clan has been a milder Prime Minister in comparison. I do agree that IK Gujral went a little over board. MMS is an academic in nature. He does not have leadership skills. He cannot make decisions. He takes orders. Looking forward, I think we should move away from staging clandestine proxy wars with others. India’s engagement in Sri Lanka was a disaster. Let the bad guys resort to it. All we have to do is to make counter measures more effective by relying on technology. In this regard, India should work with the US, Russia and European powers to develop a really smart system to contain and decimate those who make criminal plans to gain through destabilizing others.

“I wonder if Pakistan’s leaders (civilian and military) realise that they only have until 2014 to square things with India. Once the old man goes at the end of his term, India will almost certainly become more hawkish and assertive, and Pakistanis will realise what it means to have all the nasty things they say about India’s intentions and actions actually come true.”

That is a scary thought. Someone like Advani does not think much and acts on impulse.

“A sad story of a person who according to his own post would prefer to live in his ancestoral home but was forced to move over to cold Canada.”

I really did not want to respond to this. But let me clarify. I visit Canada often because I have relatives there and have business interests. I came back home when India won the cricket world cup. I am getting ready to go to Kenya soon. I do not intend sharing personal info beyond this.

GAnesh:”I wonder if Pakistan’s leaders (civilian and military) realise that they only have until 2014 to square things with India”.
They have until 2014 unless there was ever an intention!
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/most-f avoured-nation-status-for-india-by-octob er-2012-pakistan-156539

By postponing the granting of MFN status to India(even if it was a symbolic move), the Pakistani leadership has missed an oppurtunity to move ahead after the initial thaw in the relations.

Sadly after a slew of incidents related to national security occured, the civilian establishment which took most of the fault for failure to manage the relations with America got undermined, rather than the security forces that should have taken the heat.

After the initial brave attempts by the Prime Minister Manmohan singh, the movement in the direction for better relations stopped dead in its tracks after the domestic governement in India was besieged by corruption scandals, mismanagement of economy, policy paralysis and political pigheadedness. The Government is now largely seen to be cutting its own feet and moving into a oblivion with a feeling of acrimony from the larger civilian population. The PM is largely seen to be on his way to exit the political scene and make way for others.

It will only be a miracle if the civilian government in pakistan finds its nerve to assert its leadership and Government in India finds a reciprocity on the other side. Manmohan singh would surely have gone an extra mile in order to bring both nations closer as he may be weak Prime Minister but his intentions were good. It is also beginning of the end of political structure with two power centres coming to naught. while few may appreciate his benevolence but few more will sigh a relief since this man was only seen as lacking both political authority and realpolitik.

Ganesh:”How long will the Pakistani state remain solvent once US and related aid dries up? The state is already bankrupt, and the situation will just get formalised when lenders back out.”
It seems to me that Pakistan is slowly abandoning the concept of modern democratic state with exclusive powers to the civilian leadership, Something tells me that Pakistan is falling into the periods of early 90’s when Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz sharif were leading the country in tandom (after zia’s dealth)but the Army was holding the real power.

After the sudden exit of Musharraf from the political scene due to popular protests few years ago, the liberals of Pakistan in their over enthusiasm had written down Pakistan’s Army only to reconcile to the fact that security forces still weild enoromous clout in the country. What we saw in the event after Musharraf ‘s exit was the timid but very primitive attempts by the civilian leadership to hold Army accountable for its actions. Remember When it tried to bring ISI under the interior ministry (Home ministry) and its attempts to send the ISI chief to India shortly after Mumbai attacks.
Or even its attempts to break the logjam after few years of frozen relationship.
The civilians who thought they could tame the Army are slowly receding to the background and relinquishing whatever control they had back to the Armed forces.
déjà vu 1989.

Ganesh:
“1. What is the incentive for the US to continue to aid Pakistan in any way once they are out of the region? Yes, Pakistani bravado says “please stop your aid”, but what will happen when it really does stop?

2. Remember that all other sources of funding (e.g., IMF) are influenced by the US and can be shut off with a nod. The US is a vindictive power and will not forgive what it sees as treachery by a putative ally resulting in its humiliation. Saudi Arabia will not defy the US to support Pakistan. The screws will begin to tighten from all directions.

3. Everyone knows what happened to the Iranian armed forces once the US umbilical cord was cut. How long will Pakistan’s F-16s and P-3C Orions keep flying? Does Pakistan manufacture spare parts indigenously? Do you seriously think the JF-17s will simply take their place?

4. How long will the Pakistani state remain solvent once US and related aid dries up? The state is already bankrupt, and the situation will just get formalised when lenders back out.”

-This is all a farce, euro is collapsing, standard and poor has downgraded US AAA credit rating. Pakistan is a huge country with a huge gas and copper reserves, agricultural lands, tourism development, transit trade, ports, transportation hubs, oil and gas pipelines and good human resource. Pakistan can and will survive without US aid, infact I feel policymakers want to break with US aid where it acts as a spur and pushes the country towards creating sustainable economy. What will happen when aid dries up? NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Trust me , really let the aid dry up. Best thing ever to happen.
Talking about IMF? well the way ECB is scrambling to save greece from default, and now entire eurozone is at a breaking point, i think Pakistan can take care of itself. Thanks for showing concern though!
ok, so now F-16s. A couple of squadrons yes, but Swedish AWACS, IL-76 oil tankers from Ukraine, JF-17s from China, already the Air Force is less reliant on American technology which is no doubt superior, but not without expensive service contracts and threat of lack of spares. So PAF could do without spares for F-16s still maintain its strength.
Lastly, How long will Pakistan remain solvent???? TRUST ME, atleast Pakistan will outlast Greek default. And lets see when for example the euro collapses, and Italy, spain and Portugal go bankrupt or the ECB fail to take decisive measures, lets see how it jolts the world financial markets. Ganesh, really you have much more to worry about. Pakistan is not your problem, leave it to Pakistanis to fix.
I leave you with this, just remember this guy might well be the Prime minister of Pakistan in future and millions out here may vote for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9IP3ELpR pI

KPSingh:
“A couple more weeks of NATO oil supply choke can lead to full scale war.”
-So in other words NATO will invade a 180 million strong, nuclear armed nation??? Will it be a cake walk like Libya??? With Russia already angry over US missile defense in Europe, it will not give a free supply route over its territory. Let the supply lines choke and see what happens.

Umairpk: “So in other words NATO will invade a 180 million strong, nuclear armed nation???”

You need to learn to differentiate between a population number and a real strength. Your military is not made up of 180 million soldiers. If there is a war, it is going to be between your military and another one. You have non-state actors as well. But they do not make up the rest of the population. Mostly people are sheep and would go and hide when missiles fly overhead and blow buildings up. So chest thumping using a number that sounds formidable is a useless tactic.

Nukes – are they of any use against the US? Pakistan’s nukes cannot touch the US or its military forces. You kill one American and they can unleash their entire fury at you. Look at the pounding Taliban got in 2001. Some of them ran into Pakistan and have been sitting in toilets even now. So your nukes have no effect on the US either.

If a war erupts between the US and Pakistan, it won’t comprise of weapons and soldiers alone. US will fight war on many fronts – propaganda, economic crippling, triggering internal violence and chaos. These kinds of tactics was taught by the CIA to the ISI and Pakistan used it effectively against India for sometime. But the US can take it to the very end.

The only thing in Pakistan’s favor might be that the US might not want Pakistan to turn into another Sunni based Iran.

You do not want to stand up to the US. Musharraf knew it in 2001 and threw in the towel without a thought. At that time Pakistan was a hundred times stronger than it is today on all aspects. All you have to stand up for Pakistan is Zaid Hamid who can taunt and thump his chest until the first missile flies over. Then he’d run and hide under the drainage until the war gets over. Your region is also historically famous for switching sides and surrendering to anyone gaining ground. That is how your region has survived and that is the main reason for the deep rooted cultural malaise of double dealing and deceit. It is an art that has reached its perfection over many centuries of having to deal with invading armies who plundered your region first. If a war really breaks out, one might see long lines of soldiers standing in lines with their hands over their heads. I saw quite a bit of it in Iraq and Saddam Huessein’s army was driven out of Kuwait. Your nukes might not matter if it is the US that you will be dealing with. Being brave alone won’t cut it. You need money and resources to go with it. At this time, you do not have it.

“Will it be a cake walk like Libya???”

Libya had a civil war where its own citizens took out a dictator from within. The US did nothing. NATO bombed and weakened Gadaffi so that the rebels could defeat him. This situation can be created in Pakistan – trigger civil war and bomb the unfavorable sides if they show any gain. That might be the kind of war the US might be working on right now. Direct confrontation results in too much loss and lack of results. They learned this in Afghanistan. So when coming to Pakistan, they might take your suggestion about Libya and might unleash civil strife from within. That weakens any system very quickly. Your nukes will still be safe and no one will find a need for them.

“With Russia already angry over US missile defense in Europe, it will not give a free supply route over its territory. Let the supply lines choke and see what happens.”

Russia also wants Pakistan ripped apart. This is because Pakistan was responsible for their defeat in Afghanistan. And they do remember the menace in Chechnya and Dagestan. If the Americans leave, the ghosts will come back to haunt them again. So they might try to let the American go at it and take the benefits.

Umair: “Pakistan is a huge country with a huge gas and copper reserves, agricultural lands, tourism development, transit trade, ports, transportation hubs, oil and gas pipelines and good human resource. Pakistan can and will survive without US aid, infact I feel policymakers want to break with US aid where it acts as a spur and pushes the country towards creating sustainable economy. What will happen when aid dries up? NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Trust me , really let the aid dry up. Best thing ever to happen.”

Pakistan had all this for the past 64 years. Tell me why its economic indicators are pointing towards the drain. Pakistan needs to do business with other countries to export its resources and products and get businesses to set up shop so that employment can increase. In today’s scenario no one would want to venture into Pakistan or do business with it. If Americans leave, that will be the first throttle they will close tight. Pakistan will be declared into a terrorist state (trust me, Americans still have the clout to do it) and they will subject your country to severe economic sanctions. The outside world may not want to mess with Pakistan, but Pakistan needs the outside world a lot more. Islamic countries will pay a lip service and go along with the Americans. If you cozy up with Iran, they will trigger Shia-Sunni violence to keep you apart. Bravado does not offer practical solutions. It is time to throw in the towel and submit. At least you will get to rebuild your country.

Umair: “just remember this guy might well be the Prime minister of Pakistan in future and millions out here may vote for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9IP3ELpR ”

I hope Imran succeeds. But will the elements inside your country let him survive? He definitely is a great leader. Shah Mohammad Qureshi jumped ship and switched to his camp seeing the trend. Soon the others in PPP and Nawaz Sharif’s party will see which side the wind is blowing and jump ship as well. Then Imran will be surrounded by the same set of clowns he set about throwing out in the first place. He may not be able to walk due to the sheer weight of those opportunistic politicians you guys loathe. That is politics. And I am too familiar with it in India. Just being a clean leader is not enough. One has to start on a clean slate. If I were Imran, I would have told Shah Mohammad Qureshi to start sticking posters for the party and work his way up the ranks for the next ten or twenty years. That will send a message to all other opportunists. Otherwise, Imran will be snowballed out by the same crowd of politicians and he will disappear into that completely. I am speaking from experience on my side of the border. I still hope he succeeds.

KPSingh:
First, please do not scare me from the US, our lions have been unleashed. Gen. Kayani in a communique has ordered the troops to retaliate with full force if they come under fire from the US forces. Trust me, I have military blood in my viens, if they really mess with us, they will regret. It will be a fight they had not fought in their history, not Vietnam, not Iraq not Afghanistan. For now lets see if the US can even fix its economy. I wish them well, no enmity, be happy, go home from Afghanistan, we all need peace.
About Russia, it surely is a different issue, your geopolitical analysis is absolutely crap I must say. Tha land of Tzars is mired in its own internal struggle, it recently joined the WTO, its ‘reset’ of relations with US not working, angry over US missile defense plans, wary of NATO, with Putin trying to stage a comeback, but oligarchs challenging, Russia has much more on its plate. And really, Russian businessmen will flock to Pakistan for oil and gas projects. So this notion of old Soviet-Afghan war is gone, the Soviet sun has set long time ago, the new Russia is open for business.
And we certainly will stand up to the US, why are you scared, we will handle them, you sit tight and just watch. We are a nuclear power and know how to take care of ourselves.
On Imran Khan, well he is a Pakistani politician. But remember he was a cricket captain and one of the best all-time all rounders. Do not be judgemental on ‘kaptaan’ as he is known affectionately. He knows better how to play the game, like he famously dubbed Pakistan as ‘cornered tigers’ in 1992 world cup and eventually won it. Who knows? cornered tigers can be the most dangerous. Maybe NATO must be a little more cautious.
Lastly bro, really you take a chill pill. Everything will be ok, I see u worry about Pakistan too much.

KPSingh:
“Outside of Pakistan, everyone knows that Pakistan has become everyone’s problem. And they are thinking of ways to fix it since Pakistanis have done nothing to fix themselves.”

-Oh really? In which world do you live? Last I checked it is Sarkozy and Merkel scrambling for the last 6 months to save greeks from default and eventual collapse of the euro. Or the S&P downgrading credit ratings of AAA economies. Yes, Pakistan too is sometimes making news here and there because it is a nation of 180 million Muslims and a nuclear power. Its long-term strategic importance and stability matters to the world and it is important in its own ways. Let others fix their own mess first before they would fix anyone else, let alone Pakistan. Rest all, let it be, who cares who becomes a problem for whom. If everyone should mind their own business, do not poke their nose in anyone else’s affairs a lot of problems in the worlds get sorted out themselves automatically. Take for example Afghanistan, western projecting of shoving diplomacy down the throats of ethnic tribal people living by the law of gun. It never worked, it never will, better yet cut and run, face save. Infact herin lies the solution, in Bonn conference Pakistan was absent, and everyone acknowledged without Pakistan’s help, there is no solution to Afhhanistan. Pakistan, my friend, is part of solution NOT problem as you mentioned. Catch on some sleep, I will help you to get your ‘geopolitical analysis’ back on track.

KPSingh:
“Bravado does not offer practical solutions. It is time to throw in the towel and submit. At least you will get to rebuild your country.”

-Problem is, for the generation born after 1971, unwilling to be scared into submission, we Pakistanis only know we never loose, we do what we decide to do with a lot of passion. Your business acumen, just like ur geopolitical analysis is crap as it is. I think if there is money to be made, everyone will come to the party. And sanctions??? Years of sanctions did not do anything to Iran, declaring terrorist state? by those who are biggest perpetrators of war crimes, extraordinary rendition programs operating black sites across the world and gaining confession through most inhumane torture. Terrorists declaring others as terrorists???? what a joke. Even today many chinese firms operate in Pakistan, the US has lost much of its clout. It is challenged at many fronts, it can no more push around Pakistan. Ten years back it might have been different, decades of pointless wars has weakened it internally. Now is the time, if better sense prevail still there is time to fix things for them. u till me the figures? what is the external debt of the US? the balance of payments? exports? GDP? BRIC factor? Rising China? unemployment rate? avg. mortgage payments??? Talking of a sinking ship threatning others. huh

Only thing i agree with u is Imran Khan elements inside the country let him survive? Well, he has clearly stated he will serve the country in a true leadership role. He has the leadership potential and knows how to navigate Pakistani politics. So here too, you remain assured, all is well. I think now u can have a good night’s sleep.

Umair: ” If everyone should mind their own business, do not poke their nose in anyone else’s affairs a lot of problems in the worlds get sorted out themselves automatically.”

Great advice. Hope your countrymen could have followed that right from the beginning. It is always easy to tell others what to do. But it does help sometimes if you guys follow the principle yourselves.

“Take for example Afghanistan, western projecting of shoving diplomacy down the throats of ethnic tribal people living by the law of gun. It never worked, it never will, better yet cut and run, face save.”

It could have been worse. Unfortunately the tribals your country is protecting lucked out. The US had an idiot for President and his interest was in Iraq right from the start. He never paid much attention to Af-Pak. After an initial fire burst, he sent his troops into Iraq and forgot about Afghanistan. Imagine someone like Obama in power when 9/11 happened. Just as soon as he took power Obama understood where the actual problem lied and who the real villain is. If he had been in power in 2001 instead of the clown, Pakistan would have borne the brunt of the American onslaught right then. Iraq misadventure would never have happened and the entire mission would have focused on Af-Pak. Obama would have made the right calls and probably by now a solution would have been found. American indifference in the region after driving out the Taliban between 2003 and 2009 allowed Pakistan to help the Taliban and other militant groups to recuperate, regroup and rearm themselves. The clown had left the US economy in shambles when Obama was handed power. The tribals you are priding about would have done nothing if the US had done the right thing from the start. Obama simply intensified the operation and it bore results. Osama was found living comfortably under the protection of Pakistani military and was killed swiftly. Drones have killed of most militants and they have been busy running and hiding rather than confront the US. Without the help of Pakistani military, these militants would have been laid to rest long ago.
We all know what is going on, contrary to what you guys are trying to project.

“Infact herin lies the solution, in Bonn conference Pakistan was absent, and everyone acknowledged without Pakistan’s help, there is no solution to Afhhanistan. Pakistan, my friend, is part of solution NOT problem as you mentioned. ”

Pakistan is not part of the solution. If it were the case, peace would have been found long ago in Afghanistan. Pakistan is hindering the efforts to find a solution. That does not make it a part of the solution. Being a part and being a road block are two different things. The US is probably working on a solution that bypasses the hindrance or getting over it by force.

Umair: “Problem is, for the generation born after 1971, unwilling to be scared into submission, we Pakistanis only know we never loose, we do what we decide to do with a lot of passion.”

Pakistani soldiers surrendered to the Taliban led by Baitullah Mehsud. Pakistan made a deal with him – you don’t piss on us and we won’t piss on you agreement. And he promptly violated that agreement. Bombs blew up everywhere inside Pakistan. Your mighty and valorous military stood there shivering in its pants and it was the American drone that got him. Your military general, commander in thief Pervert Riffraff surrendered to the Americans in 2001 when Richard Armitage gave him a choice – “are you with us or against us?” If it was such a great generation that knew it never loses, why did Pakistan shamelessly switch sides and exposed the Taliban to bear the brunt of American onslaught? Why did Musharraf make a deal to airlift Pakistani army personnel and many non-state actors out of Kunduz? You guys decide nothing. Your army decides what to do – mostly saluting to the Americans for alms. That has been the case until now.

“Your business acumen, just like ur geopolitical analysis is crap as it is.”

I would not feel hurt to see the blind claiming the moon never existed. The last thing I need is a certification from anyone about my business acumen or geo-political knowledge. I rely on my reading for such purposes and I have read quite a lot over the years. I do not go by street propaganda much. I like to make my own judgements based on what I read and watch.

“I think if there is money to be made, everyone will come to the party. And sanctions???”

It depends upon if the money is being made through honest business or through robbery. No one would want to do business with bandits.

“Years of sanctions did not do anything to Iran, declaring terrorist state?”

Iran is sitting on top of vast reserves of oil. Iranians have to do nothing. Money pours down from the sky for its oil. Sanctions would not hurt such countries that are sitting on top of natural resources. I agree that Iran has been wrongly declared as a terrorist state. It should have been Pakistan and I am sure you will agree with me on this.

“by those who are biggest perpetrators of war crimes, extraordinary rendition programs operating black sites across the world and gaining confession through most inhumane torture. Terrorists declaring others as terrorists???? ”

Why is the pot calling the kettle black?

“what a joke. Even today many chinese firms operate in Pakistan, the US has lost much of its clout.”

The US probably never had much business investment inside Pakistan. Most of their deals have been military oriented. We know China’s “business” in Pakistan.

“It is challenged at many fronts, it can no more push around Pakistan.”

We will see as time goes by.

“Ten years back it might have been different, decades of pointless wars has weakened it internally. Now is the time, if better sense prevail still there is time to fix things for them.”

The main strength of the US is not money. It has a very deep fundamental infrastructure that will not let it collapse under any circumstances. It has the best environment in the world for creativity. It still has the potential to create more Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Intel and so on that have helped reshape the world. It is because of Facebook and Twitter that revolutions are going on around the Middle East and elsewhere. The US still has the potential to create new markets. It is not going to disappear into thin air. This is the real strength of the US. Money gets made through this creative enterprise. You will have to see it to believe it. They have undergone economic ups and downs more than once in their history. They have faced two world wars and a cold war following that. Yet they have dominated the world by focusing on creative enterprise. Only the US can create Walmarts, Fedex, Dell, HP, Alcoa, Exxon and other massive multinationals. While its military is engaged in wars around the world, its business enterprise is continuously generating new avenues. And this potential will last a long time. They still have plenty of natural resources. Their power hold over the world might diminish. But they are going to be around with their global influence as strong as before. There is no alternative to American style of enterprise and leadership in the world right now.

See above. These kinds of ups and downs are cyclical and what goes down usually comes up. The US is a proper nation built on extremely strong fundamental foundations. It is not going to disappear anytime. You might wish for it because your country is now at the receiving end. But you are going to be disappointed. None of the other emerging powers have such strong foundations. China’s economy is reliant on external business. If the business opportunities diminish, China will implode. They are sitting on a huge bubble themselves.

No matter how much you might thump your chest, the reality is going in the opposite direction. But you are very much entitled to be proud of your nation. We are mere spectators in the latest kabaddi match between the US and Pakistan.

@Umair
The Americans and the rag tag european military have been decisively defeated and are on the run. Their main concern is to bring out the technicaly advanced and highly lethal equipment out of Afghanistan; Pakistan leaders Messrs Gillani and certain corps commanders sudden reaction has definitely surprised them but their hope is that Messrs Zardari and Kyani, the loyal allies would relax and let them retrieve the lethal stuff before it falls into Iranian, chinese or the Russians hands. The stakes are very high; rightly or wrong but foolishly, the american operations in the Pashtoon land were fully supported by Pakistan military firstly by mr Musharaf and later by Gen Kyan. The program was on track, but then the Americans administration themselves messed it up by numerous actions in Pakistan first the Abbotabad adventure and now in the border area, while the American military based on false CIA info put out diabolic info about Pakistan military which could not be denied. The fact that ISI has imbedded their people in certain Taliban forces is normal for an intelligence unit and is nothing new and the Americans were informed about it.
The ball is with Americans and it would appear that Pakistan might open the Karachi-Khyber highway once an official apology from the USA Govt. is forthcoming and the taliban forces allow the safe passage for the precious cargo.
There is a long way to 2014 deadline, which the Americans have announced.

Here is a link that talks about how Taliban is being weakened in Afghanistan. The reason why US does not want to relax its grip is because it is seeing progress. Had they employed this method right from the beginning, by now Taliban and its sponsors would have been history.

All those who are chest thumping about American “defeat” might be interested in seeing the reality for themselves. Taliban is being broken down slowly.
Here are some highlights:

UN figures show the vast majority of civilian casualties are due to Taliban operations. Whether or not there is a deliberate effort to radicalise the Taliban, it appears to be an unavoidable side effect of trying to crush it militarily. And that is exactly what the US has been trying to do in the last two years.

The US-led decimation of the Taliban’s mid-level leadership begins in top-secret intelligence hubs crammed with analysts scrutinising vast amounts of raw information gleaned from Afghan spies, interrogations and eavesdropping into mobile phone networks. After sifting through the data, a targeting “packet” is created and handed over to special forces teams who are sent out on up to six “kill or capture” missions every single night. Dozing in their traditional mud compounds in distant villages all over rural Afghanistan, the targets have no clue they are in the crosshairs of one of the most advanced intelligence and military machines the world has ever seen until they hear helicopters racing over the horizon.

Nagl says all this amounts to a revolution in the way war is fought. “In the history of counterinsurgency, we have never been this good at taking insurgents off the battlefield,” he says.

And, it is working, say Nato’s data crunchers, who pore over information in a windowless office in Kabul. They claim there are significant signs that the insurgency has weakened in the past year, including the loss of areas in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, where the Taliban used to operate unmolested. Radio intercepts and other sources of intelligence suggest the Taliban is reeling: commanders struggle to resupply its men in the field, while some fighters apparently refuse promotions or even to step foot in Afghanistan, preferring the safety of Pakistan. There are also signs that the average age of Taliban commanders has dropped as the movement struggles to replace those who are killed or captured, leading to a new generation of less experienced and less capable insurgents taking the lead.

The Nato intelligence official, drawing from a thick pile of graphs and bar charts, points to some encouraging signs: 2011 has seen record numbers of tip-offs from locals revealing where caches of weapons and IEDs (improvised explosive devices) are hidden. There has also been brisk interest in signing up to the Afghan Local Police scheme, a US special forces-mentored programme that recruits villagers to defend their own communities.

The Super Power will complete its exit(heads up) from Iraq by december 31st; the troops to be with their families at xmass. The USA has also asked Iran for the return of the drone, confirms Mr Obama.

In the meantime Pakistan military has taken cntrol of the Shamsi air base after expelling the CIA outfit due to default on rental payments and its misuse for military missions.

Since then no drones or helicopters missions have been reorted in the Pashtun territory. A pause or a xmass break to avoid American casualties during xmass period. Looks like without the assistance of its ally Pakistan the USA military is at stand still.

I wonder why you think the Bill Keller article is nice. As an apologist for Pakistan, his attempt is pretty weak and transparent. There was no mention of the Bengali genocide, the Kunduz airlift or the Mumbai attacks, so one wonders how even-handed his analysis could be.

How far the double game of Pakistan is going to lead the world to?
After the very recent joint Pakistan and Chinese military exercises in the heartland of Punjab, and for the first time in the world simulating a nuclear conflict, one can only wonder, speculate and guess? One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market. Bad times in 2012 for Mr Obama, under whose watch more lives were lost in Afghanistan than previously. Without the cooperation of the Pakistan military even their drones program is now in jeapordy. The USA cannot trust Indian leaders since they are once again getting closer to Russia, their old ally.

The word “nice” was expected to be satirical. I should have highlighted it.

The Youtube link I posted on BBC’s coverage on Pakistan’s duplicity is the real thing. These guys knew all along that they were being deceived. Yet they put up with it to the point of break down. It had to come to this end sometime or another.

How far the double game of Pakistan is going to lead the world to?
After the very recent joint Pakistan and Chinese military exercises in the heartland of Punjab, and for the first time in the world simulating a nuclear conflict, one can only wonder, speculate and guess? One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market. Bad times in 2012 for Mr Obama, under whose watch more lives were lost in Afghanistan than previously. Without the cooperation of the Pakistan military even their drones program is now in jeapordy. The USA cannot trust Indian leaders since they are once again getting closer to Russia, their old ally.
Rex Minor

Thanks for that link. It was a very well written rebuttal.
See the series of videos on Najm Sethi from Pakistan. There are sensible and rational voices inside Pakistan. Hope they get their voices heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exAlTqrfR a4

The current generation of Pakistanis must see these videos and look at themselves. They will realize how much they have been misled by lies and propaganda.

I agree with the analysis of the scenario Pakistan and U.S. is an uneasy alliance and one that should be worked out with Afghanistan on the table. This will be beneficial for all who are tangled in this mess. Indian Opinion and analysis that is actually done to death here is not really relevant to the situation. They have their own axe to grind. Also their understanding of Pushtoon culture (which was the factor not taken into account before) is bare minimum at best. So sit down and talk to people on the ground and take into account opinions of those who live with this mess day-in day-out.

Rex Minor:”One thing is very sure China is going to confront the USA in 2012 in the economic field and is very likely to demand that either the USA reduce their spending level in line with their National income or China would be compelled to unload the US bonds in the open market”.

Rex, Nobody thinks China has the capacity to dump US bonds not even the chinese, I don’t know if you follow financial markets, but any new rookie who follows them knows that its the Europe (yes Europe) thats fumbling and sliding and dollar thats stable. Few weeks back, the European union kicked out the United Kingdom out of the Euro and essentially paid way for its own demise. And that is because UK forms those part of few countries which provide demand to European goods.
The chinese depend heavily on the western demand to fuel their economy. It even depends on every country that provides a little demand to their products, its financial structure is designed in such a way that its over obsession with high employement rate exacerbates the problems of overinvestment and export dependence.Its subsidy to exports (in order to appease the SOE sector dominated by inefficient Communist bosses) fundementally distorts the price signals of every investment and makes the return of investment calculation that much more difficult.
It is not exporters market anymore, but the importers and consumer’s market. There was a time when people would kill each other for Japanese electronic gadgets or German equipment or American branded produts since they weren’t made anywhere. After the Globalization has taken root, these products are made everywhere and part of the product can be made anywhere. Thats why the countries whose Internal demand is robust dominates the financial order. Most of the world believes its ill timed and fallacious argument to compare India and China but for the population. Yes it is and in terms of development model China follows the “Far East” development model where Authoritarian governments invest hugely in human development and exports to reach economic standards of the West, And then they would unshackle the political authority from few individuals by democratizing or devolving powers to larger populace and humungous institutions.This happenend in case of South Korea, Japan (to an extent when single party monopoly was broken only recently), malaysia and other countries.
The problem with this kind of growth is that it thoroughly depends on exports and investment for growth. The Japanese experience, which once thought to be overtaking US economy only to taper off and finds itself in low growth future. The japanese citiezens were very thrifty and wouldn’t spend much. It took 2 decades (from 1989) and a declining population growth to adjust to new economic model where it now consumes most of what it makes.

Sure Chinese look down upon Indians because of our perceived failure to measure up to the chinese in terms of Health Indicators. But well informed Indians wouldn’t worry because inspite of Higher GDP, internal consumption only forms 33% of the GDP hence the urge to continue this export exhuberance and embarking on this mindless investment spree in china.
In India 2/3rd of GDP comes from consumption and though China is 3 times(or 300%) the size of Indian economy its internal consumption is just 50% more of what India consumes. Communist countries are good at glamourizing their economic successes. Remember when Soviet boasted supreme economy and their big dams (most of the power unutilized), large grains (most of it wasted) and its electronic goods (when nobody bought). They do by keeping some cities clean (I appreciate them for that) and allowing visitors to only these cities while its slave labour hoarded away into ramshackle labour dormitories. India doesn’t do all these and thats why it doesn’t look sexy!!!
Wonder why if Chinese is such a superpower it has to depend on countries like India and Indonesia for exports which are fraction of its size (the exports which are lower end of technological heirarchy).

India being a colony of the British borrows heavily its political and economic structres (and Pakistan too to ane extent) and so development in human resources and creation of viable and independent institutions for sustaining a peaceful, prosperous and a political structure with choices go hand in hand, unlike the chinese which are bereft of them. So Indian development both (Pakistan’s too inspite of its fault lines)at sociological and political level moves parallelly. While the First phase of political structures (Democractic governance,free press, Election Commission) were created along with economic ones (socialist institutions like large public sector units for steel, medicines,Hospitals,primary schools and basic research institutions like IIT), the second economic reform (in 1991) was not complemented with political reform (reform of bureaucracy, anti-corruption laws, electoral and political reforms, judicial reforms, police reforms etc)and that is the reason why you see clamour for politcal reforms in India these days under the pretext of protests to bring Lokpal (autonomous anti corruption ombudsmen). A nation the size of India or China has to be built in fraction of centuries if not centuries itself. A simple Export driven model will help a country as small as Japan or Korea but to live of exports without internal consumption for a country the size of china is not possible without comprehensive socio-political reform.
The chinese secretly know and admit it that time is running out for a comprehensive reform but the timid ruling class only passes the buck to the next generation of leaders. “May you live in interesting times” was the ubiquitous chinese quote you always encounter and in this respect this decade is going to be a defining one at that. It just begun with Arab spring, Occupy wall street and Indian public protests over second generation political reform. Rex, “May you live in interesting times” regards to pakistan too.
Link to substantiate my claim (I already posted I guess but nevertheless)
http://mpettis.com/2011/12/how-do-we-kno w-that-china-is-overinvesting/

KP,
I will make an attempt to make my posts more readable in that sense.

you said “Why did Musharraf make a deal to airlift Pakistani army personnel and many non-state actors out of Kunduz?”
I still wonder why Americans allowed the Kunduz airlift to happen right under their noses, when they were about to score a victory over taliban and remains an enigma to me. No investigation or no information retrieval pertaining to this improper act was conducted.
Most of the Taliban leaders who fled the territory using Pakistani logistics came back with trained men to fight the americans. We wouldn’t have been hearing the invincibility of the so called “pushtoons” as we know that even before it was American Weapons, Saudi Money and Pakistani logistics helped score a victory. While for the Soviets anything less than victory was a defeat while anything less than defeat was a victory for mujahideen. History repeated itself 2 decades later but I wondered why Americans haven’t learned any lessons here.

Sensiblepatriot:
What Rex Minor stated makes a lot more sense than your long babbling rants which makes no sense. Europe is not fumbling or sliding, EU is a unique association of its kind with 27 members states and a vast population, with different interests, aspirations and diversity bound together with a single currency. The Euro has its challenges and the European leaders are working to sort them out. And where did the EU kicked the UK out of the euro???? UK was never part of the single currency in first place. Despite the European debt crisis, there is talk of ECB acting as either a lendor of last resort, or implementation of EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund)together these measures are expected to stabilize the euro. No doubt there are challenges but together Germans as the bulwark of EU and France are expected to do whatever it takes to save the euro. As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses. China surely will challenge the US in 2012 economically, for a long time the US has accused China of currency manipulation tactics. So far China has been playing nice, if it really plays around with the floating exchange rate of Yuan in the open market it can have economic impact. It is easy to find fault in China, for India itself there are big barriers to growth. A vast population still lives in poverty, lot of infrastructure is either underdeveloped or absent altogether. There is largescale corruption in government. No single economic model can be considered perfect on its own, no ideology can be termed perfect, communism was not, capitalism is not perfect.

Umairpk:”What Rex Minor stated makes a lot more sense than your long babbling rants which makes no sense”.

Thats the problem isn’t it. He doesn’t substantiate his points with prudent arguments or point to some links from where he could have formed the opinion. Usually Single line statements sprouting so called “truths” cannot become “more sense” just because it automatically concurs with your opinion of prevailing perception in your country.

If mine is a long babbling rant, then most of us are guilty of doing that (including Rex at times) at some point of time, but the point is , You can only pick wrong opinions, perceptions from these long posts (which doesn’t necessarily target an individual) rather than trolling the blog with silly arguments and counter arguments which set the blog on fire for no reason. And if you do not concur with any part of my post, you are free to express here. In my defence, I did not get this kind of jeering when it suited your arguments ( like my post of Past Islamic empires or Civilizations).

Umaripk:”Europe is not fumbling or sliding, EU is a unique association of its kind with 27 members states and a vast population, with different interests, aspirations and diversity bound together with a single currency”.
Remember Soviet Union, it was also bounded politically closer than Europe than is now with numerous states, vast diversity and single current, yet it failed. My point is an economic bloc comprising of many states would not make it automatically successful. The underlying quasi socialist make up of all european states (with the exception of Germany) will only makes their troubles worse in trying to grow out of recession. Just like you would not tie a donkey and a horse to single cart just because they both have common owner (Europe in this case), tying Germany and Greece both of which are world’s apart with respect to composition of economy would only worsen the crisis. Greece cannot have third world industry but backed by First rate Euro currency as they would lose on competetion of exports with respect to China and India. The problem is only exacerbated by many more countries called PIIGS (portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain) with differing levels of incompetence. The problem got worse because uncompetetive they are, they could not depreciate their currency and reduce the trade deficit due to the obligations of ECB.
Umairpk:”And where did the EU kicked the UK out of the euro???? UK was never part of the single currency in first place. “.

Yes UK was never part of single currency but was closely assosiated with Euro. Most of the corporate offices established themselves in London due to laissez faire nature of the government there. Both UK and Euro are going to lose due to UK’s isolation, but more the Euro since UK is the destination to lot of exports from Euro and its the countries of Euro which are in deep financial problems.

umairpk:”Despite the European debt crisis, there is talk of ECB acting as either a lendor of last resort, or implementation of EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund)together these measures are expected to stabilize the euro. No doubt there are challenges but together Germans as the bulwark of EU and France are expected to do whatever it takes to save the euro”.
You have unwittingly spoken the truth yourself. The fact that ECB is acting as lender or will try to write off the debts says by itself that infeasible nature of the monetary union.
1.Either the Euro should get more overriding powers over the national governements of the Europe and force spending cuts which are difficult to accept in a quasi socialistic setup.
2.European union has to depreciate the value of the Euro and impose trade barriers on China and India (which violates WTO) in an attempt reduce the fiscal and trade deficit of PIIGS.
Just because you have karachi doesn’t mean the whole country of Pakistan is as efficient as that city.
Similarly just because you have Germany doesn’t mean every country is as efficient as Germany is.

Umaripk:As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses..blah blah and something about India”.
The jury is still out on this and in your rush to degrade US (due to sudden hostility which arose recently), you may well be downgrading US altogether. And you haven’t realized that Europe and US are cojoined twins with respect to Foreign and Economic policies (see WTO talks) and europe’s slander of Pakistan is only little passive to US.

With Regards to your comment on China, It was a bit hilarious to me. The Chinese President was seen last seen threatening US not to devalue the dollar in order to pay off its debts and close the trade deficit. The Chinese are scared that their wealth stashed in American banks as sovereign debt will lose in value if US devalues the dollar and may be its a statement by chinese threatening with “chinese charecteristics”, that the world calls it as begging. In any case, the fiscal nature of Chinese economic structure and economic composition of Chinese economy is going to force it to keep yuan pegged lower to the dollar. I have elaborated regarding this in my previous post. If chinese lets the Yuan loose, its going to fall further not appreciate.

Its an interesting comment on India, because if you see the percapita income of India and China. India is exactly where China was in 2000 (even after adding inflation). http://tinyurl.com/bqepaa8
This is due to the known fact that India liberalized 13 years after the Chinese did. Indian poverty rates were similiar to what Chinese suffered in their late 90’s and we are waiting for the improved statistics on India’s poverty in 2012 from the last census during which India had the best economic performance in its independent history.
I am sure you have heard about the Civilian protests demanding a National level Ombudsmen (Lokpal) which even most pessimists and politicians are privately agreeing that its going to be a game changer. A plethora of legislations pertaining to political reforms are on its way (Citizens charter, Electoral reforms,Judicial accountability,police reforms etc) and are expected to be passed well before the middle of this decade. The next five year plan is focussed on building infrastructure on a grand scale. The point is we know the direction and our eyes fixed on the steps needed to move and being 2nd fastest growing major economy isn’t that bad, is it?
I haven’t even questioned regarding the same in Pakistani discourse regarding this matter for the fear of feeding another troll and I hope you enlighten me on this 😉

Umaripk:As for the US, its own AAA credit rating was downgraded by the S&P which shows internal weaknesses..blah blah and something about India”.
The jury is still out on this and in your rush to degrade US (due to sudden hostility which arose recently), you may well be downgrading US altogether. And you haven’t realized that Europe and US are cojoined twins with respect to Foreign and Economic policies (see WTO talks) and europe’s slander of Pakistan is only little passive to US.

With Regards to your comment on China, It was a bit hilarious to me. The Chinese President was seen last seen threatening US not to devalue the dollar in order to pay off its debts and close the trade deficit. The Chinese are scared that their wealth stashed in American banks as sovereign debt will lose in value if US devalues the dollar and may be its a statement by chinese threatening with “chinese charecteristics”, that the world calls it as begging. In any case, the fiscal nature of Chinese economic structure and economic composition of Chinese economy is going to force it to keep yuan pegged lower to the dollar. I have elaborated regarding this in my previous post. If chinese lets the Yuan loose, its going to fall further not appreciate.

Its an interesting comment on India, because if you see the percapita income of India and China. India is exactly where China was in 2000 (even after adding inflation). http://tinyurl.com/bqepaa8
This is due to the known fact that India liberalized 13 years after the Chinese did. Indian poverty rates were similiar to what Chinese suffered in their late 90’s and we are waiting for the improved statistics on India’s poverty in 2012 from the last census during which India had the best economic performance in its independent history.
I am sure you have heard about the Civilian protests demanding a National level Ombudsmen (Lokpal) which even most pessimists and politicians are privately agreeing that its going to be a game changer. A plethora of legislations pertaining to political reforms are on its way (Citizens charter, Electoral reforms,Judicial accountability,police reforms etc) and are expected to be passed well before the middle of this decade. The next five year plan is focussed on building infrastructure on a grand scale. The point is we know the direction and our eyes fixed on the steps needed to move and being 2nd fastest growing major economy isn’t that bad, is it?
I haven’t even questioned regarding the same in Pakistani discourse regarding this matter for the fear of feeding another troll and I hope you enlighten me on this 😉

Sensible Patriot,
Umair reads only Mandarin and Urudu newspapers and then posts here what he “learnt”.

He doesn’t read Dawn or Express Tribune.

Here is a Dawn Column:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/18/pakistans -patrons.html

excerpts:

“During crises with India in 1990, 1999 and 2001-02, Pakistani civilian and military leaders made beelines to Beijing seeking backup.

They received polite but unmistakable advice to resolve their difficulties with New Delhi without major new weapon shipments or shrill public warnings against Indian military adventurism. Beijing helped the United States, South Asia`s essential crisis manager, more than it helped Pakistan during these three crises.”

“One method of dealing with Washington`s growing disaffection is by characterising security assurances purportedly made in pPRIVATE by Chinese officials in ways that Beijing has notably refrained from reaffirming.

For example, during Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar`s trip to China in May 2011, he spoke appreciatively of Chinese construction of the Gwadar port, while expressing an interest in Chinese construction of “a naval base” there. When asked about this request, a senior Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson replied, “I have not heard about it.”:-)

“But the track record of China-Pakistan relations — especially during natural disasters and crises with India — suggests a relationship in which Pakistan asks for much and Beijing is circumspect about giving.”

sensiblepatriot: “I still wonder why Americans allowed the Kunduz airlift to happen right under their noses, when they were about to score a victory over taliban and remains an enigma to me. No investigation or no information retrieval pertaining to this improper act was conducted.”

There is a National Geographic video series on the rise and fall of Taliban. In that it is shown that Musharraf made a deal with the US to airlift Pakistani soldiers and commanders trapped in Afghanistan after the US started its bombing campaign. The Americans seriously believed Musharraf to be an ally and went with his request. Pakistan not only airlifted its military personnel, but also many of the key Taliban and Al Qaeda members from Kunduz. America is paying the price now for that naive approach.

Ganesh,
It was an extremely good article. Somebody said that in case of India, Gandhi built a sense of honour, dignity and respect that a civilizational state like India lost after centuries of foreign rule. That was his greatest contribution because, even though India endured hardships during its evolution as an independent state few felt leaving the country or seceding is the only solution. While Patel physically brought disparate provinces under one union through the threat of force, Ambedkar tried to bind us through consitutional obligations in order to bind this impossibly diverse nation and Nehru tried to build institutions it was only made possible by the common understanding that we need to make compromises socially and politically to accomodate as many people and as many ideologies as possible.
True, we had our failures too in the way of glaring poverty and still below par development, but the I always questioned whether we are more cohesive state today than we were 68 years ago?
Now I realize that the question is irrelevant and it should rather be – can we still be able to live together DESPITE our incohesive nature of our ideas, histories and about how we want the society to be and how we want to treat it.
India was a cauldron of emerging and dying philosophies all through its history which can be seen even in its majority religion where Atheism to unquestioned conformity to GOD coexist. This was the same reason why no single philosophy was able to completely dominate the nation (china could have fit in the same boat but for communism) and even when Islam and Christianity entered, they just exploded in hundreds of denominations (more for Islam due to its long historical and geographical presence).
The victorian ideas of a nationhood should never be the basis on our nationhood as it never had been.
I think this is the only point missing in otherwise a great article of yours.
It is that, the fear of India is not the only binding component for the Idea of Pakistan which I think came later. One must remember that geographical exclusivity never entered the minds of mullahs who had disdain for Jinnah’s idea of nationhood because Islamists never believedb in geographical boundary for the religion. Although Mirza Ghalib’s poetry did perpetrate the thought of nationhood, it was more to be seen as grievance for the loss of influence and empire.
Just like some upwardly mobile conservative Hindus who believe in victorian ideas of nationhood and never really understand the diverse cultural complexities of the nation(one language and religion would naturally become a nation), jinnah too was heavily influenced by the nations of europe which were neatly divided into countries based on common ethnicity (language), religion (catholic vs protestant) and history. Jinnah saw the adverserial relationship between Britain and France and felt nothing wrong about it. He in fact felt, it is only natural that they loathe each other.
The fear of India subsuming all the identities of Pakistan came much later after jinnah’s untimely death. By the time Jinnah was in his death bed, he was horrified to realize that inspite of every attempt by him to leave the traces of Hindustan, the extreme diverse nature of pakistani population still clung to old indian cultural influence would mean jinnah would have to built popular political movements like Gandhi all over again!!. The majority muslim state did not automatically make it a nation state as jinnah hoped.
With no binding ideology, the nation drifted under military rule but only after the loss of east bengal did india’s visceral hate entered popular conciousness and reached great proportions where for want of revenge, it started proxy war by training its own citizes (it supported insurgencies before but not directly involved its citizens) there by cutting its own feet.

kp:”In that it is shown that Musharraf made a deal with the US to airlift Pakistani soldiers and commanders trapped in Afghanistan after the US started its bombing campaign. The Americans seriously believed Musharraf to be an ally and went with his request”
I think Americans must be repenting at this.

Netizen:”But the track record of China-Pakistan relations — especially during natural disasters and crises with India — suggests a relationship in which Pakistan asks for much and Beijing is circumspect about giving”.
Netizen, the inferiority complex of the nation (nation here refers to the rulers of Pakistan) is only a sidekick of the larger problem.

Americans act like cowboys. They let the cow run wild and try to catch it by the tail. The cow usually tramples them quite a lot. They fall for the facade of hospitality, diplomatic speech, charm etc. Pakistanis have been very good at this. Westerners love being pampered. Pakistani diplomats could paint the faces of the gullible Westerners black while charming them with their deceptive hospitality manoeuvrings. Most of them can lie convincingly, on the spot and get away with anything. Look at Musharraf’s international speeches and interviews. This guy can sell anyone’s mother. American generals love their Pakistani counterparts. And this gets enhanced when they encounter the Indian diplomats and generals who lack any diplomatic skills, are rude and blunt and lack charisma mostly. AQ Khan could charm everyone including a white woman, get married to her, walk into ultra secret facilities, smuggle out sensitive blueprints, and build an entire nuclear bomb facility in Pakistan. Charm can accomplish that far. One can only do so much lying. The reality is exposed. But the Americans have a lot of black paint to wipe off their faces.

Americans and their allies knew all along that they were being fooled. But they went with it. Obama is the first one to take a step back and refuse to be fooled. And it shows in the repercussions Pakistan is facing now.

It is not easy to imagine the downfal of the world’s greatest super power, militarily as well as economicaly.
Out of Iraq in darkness leaving Abu Ghareb and the hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis behind, defeated on the battle ground by the so called taliban Pashtoons and stranded with the most advanced and lethal non- conventional weaponry in Afghanistan on account of showing arrogance to Pakistan, is the most sinister but attractive story for any newspaper.
The use of drones in the future warfares is also in taters since the IT hackers intervene in the communication system and brought down the silent baby in the lap of Iranians. The object is now under study by the experts from China and Russia. Russia has also announced the construction of anti.anti missile system along the border of Poland. Thank you Mr Obama, an african had to demonstrate some innovation and why not destabilize Europe for a change.
The lady in the red is initiating once again embarked on the path of a cold war with Russia?

The facts are that the European economy is larger than that of the USA, but not yet under a single political and economic Govt. The system currently adopted by the Europeans with the exception of the UK, is that the European Bank is independent and does not automatically print currency to offset the debt level in Europe. Whereas, the USA Govt. starts printing dollars once the congress has approved/increased the debt level. Mr Sarkozy proposed the American system for Europe as well but did not receive support from Mrs Merkel and other strong Euro countries sinc this the recipee for uncontrolled inflation.
Because of ammateur and bad behaviour of David Cameron in recent European meetings , UK future in the European union under a consrvative Govt. is no longer certain. But this is a different story.

Almost forty percent of the american GDP is derived from the Wall street financial services. The manufacturing base is softening rapidly, while the manufacturing capacity of China is continualy expanding. The USA can not survive on the stregnth of Ipads and drones.

The Soviet Union went flat after its debacle in Afghanistan and the USA is going to have the same fate. It is a pity that Pakistan military leaders played foul with its own ctzens, lost a too many citizens fighting other citizens and all this because the former General Musharaf had no balls and caved in against the threats?
More american soldiers have lost their lives in Afghanistan under the watch of Mr Obama than under George W. What a legacy for a potential one time President versus Jimmy carter who basts that under his one time Presidency not a single american soldier lost his life?

KPSingh:
The BBC documentary, secret Pakistan is just rubbish. The good thing about ISI is it fights as a first line of defense for Pakistan in a silent war. It can be frustrating, but it has to be that way. The BBC never told the two sides of the story in history, the lies continue.

Rex:
Every empire in history saw its downfall, the days of US may not be numbered. But they have been on the peak for a while, no doubt the only way forward is downhill.

Umairpk: “The BBC documentary, secret Pakistan is just rubbish. The good thing about ISI is it fights as a first line of defense for Pakistan in a silent war. It can be frustrating, but it has to be that way. The BBC never told the two sides of the story in history, the lies continue.”

I understand that from Pakistan’s standpoint the ISI is the golden institution that upholds its nation’s priority as the most important thing. But it is not rubbish from an overall perspective. I wouldn’t say the CIA is made up of angels either. There is a very faint demarcation between an intelligence system and a criminal syndicate. Based on what we have been observing, it makes one wonder if the ISI is really acting on its national interest or towards controlling Pakistan from within. If the latter is true then that is an extremely dangerous thing. The nation is helpless and a syndicate can do whatever suits its best interest and will bear no responsibility for its actions because it was done under “national interest”. ISI does control the Pakistani media considerably and exterminates reporters that do not align with its vision (Shahzad’s murder is one example). ISI also has deep interaction with organizations that are considered as terrorist institutions by the international community. This makes the ISI resemble a rogue syndicate that basically runs its own affairs and aligns the nation with its goals. The BBC video may not be 100% accurate. But ISI is deeply involved in many activities that can harm the neighborhood as well as Pakistan itself. I wouldn’t call the coverage as rubbish. It is just a matter of which side of the fence one is sitting. When the war against the Soviets was going on, CIA and ISI slept together on the same bed. I wish someone made a similar documentary on the CIA for its activities. ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.

I will die out of laughing. First, the Europeans keep giving every tom, dick, harry, his own country (or NATION as he calls it) and then strive for a single political govt. What kind of stupidity is that?? Why divide in first place when you later strive for single govt. And then this character lectures India and Pakistan on Kashmir and our history in general. Mark my words, Euro will fall. German efficiency will not go on feeding Greek, Italian, Spanish laziness forever. And that day will come when every European will want UK to set their finances in order (ofcourse UK needs to set its own house in order first). Question is, whether Germany will be seen as villain for a third time in history and this time wrongly so.

@Pakis
As long as you keep blaming others for your own mistakes, you will keep suffering all that time. But then you don’t believe in theory of Karma.

@KPSingh01
“ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.”

This is not surprising since almost all western media is easily influenced by money power from US govt circles. I find CNN and NYTimes to be just puppets and propaganda media in hands of US govt. BBC could still be trusted to some extent but only some.

Breaking News quoting TOI:
“The United States has said that Taliban is not an enemy of America, a move seen as the latest effort of the Obama administration to send an olive branch to the terrorist outfit that ruled Afghanistan before 9/11.

“Look, the Taliban per se is not our enemy. That’s critical,” US Vice President Joe Biden said in an interview to the Newsweek magazine.”
This throws a curve for Bharti strategist to deal with. What say you?

I also told you that drones are not such a big deal and Iranians proved that in days.

Do you not see the change in American policy or do I have to spoon feed you. I will give you a hint, Americans have also pulled away from Zardari.

The Pashtuns or the so called Talibans do not negotiate with foreigners; one must defeat them or meet their demands!Their demand are very simple! Get out of their territory! They are usualy colour blind and do not recognise the olive colour! Their sixteen years boys are now in a position to bring down the little kites safely as well.

Two USA administrations (Bush & Obama)have managed finaly to isolate the USA from the rest of the world!

Matrixx: “”“Look, the Taliban per se is not our enemy. That’s critical,” US Vice President Joe Biden said in an interview to the Newsweek magazine.”
This throws a curve for Bharti strategist to deal with. What say you?”

Taliban was never considered as an enemy. The reason why the US attacked Afghanistan was because of the ultimatum GWB gave to countries that support and harbor Al Qaeda. Taliban led Afghanistan at that time did. The US also would have attacked Pakistan. But they checked with Musharraf and the brave soldier that he is, he switched sides and decided to deceive the Americans.

The US was after Al Qaeda. Capturing or killing of OBL was one of the objectives. The reason why the US is antagonistic to Taliban is because the Taliban has been sabotaging US efforts in Afghanistan with Pakistan’s help. They are holding secret meetings with Taliban where they are negotiating a settlement where Taliban might promise not to upstage American efforts and become a part of the nation building.

There is nothing new in any of this. India is against the Taliban because it was created and sustained by Pakistani army for a strategic depth. If Pakistan can abandon that pursuit, India has no qualms about what Afghans do for themselves.

“I also told you that drones are not such a big deal and Iranians proved that in days.”

Do not assume that Americans are going to sit and give up on their drones. If someone found a loop hole in their technology, they are probably working on fixing it.

KPSingh:
“I wish someone made a similar documentary on the CIA for its activities. ISI is all that is being covered by the world media today.”

-No, KP there is a lot on CIA, books, documentaries etc its only that you are just not interest to figure. Go figure, google “John Stockwell” his book “In search of enemies”, operation IA Feature, Iran contra affair, use of mind control drugs,

John Stockwell on the Morality of the CIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFPayzr8d SM&list=FLvJFFUig3RR9rXKY96zHRzg&index=1 4&feature=plpp_video

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FElp4V5YR i0&list=FLvJFFUig3RR9rXKY96zHRzg&index=6 4&feature=plpp_video

Since Nov 16 there has been no drone strike inside Pakistan, the rules of engagement has been revamped by Pakistan Military. It is quite possible that in future any potential drones intruding Pakistan’s airspace are shot down. For now, the US had to give up its presence on Shamsi airbase in Pakistan. The only good option, as Joe Biden said is to accept the reality, and make peace with Taliban. Ok, it will be humiliating for a super power to accept defeat. But US is not alone in history, didn’t the Soviet Union accept its defeat gracefully and left Afghanistan. Saving face is always good, but at what expense is the question? One thing is certain, it is not sure whether the US will loose the war in Afghanistan or not, but it is absolutely clear it sure is not going to win it at any cost. The only way out is a political solution with Pakistan’s help.

@KPS
You still don’t get it. I gave you a hint, but you still don’t get it. I’ll explain it no further.
As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.

Umairpk: “No, KP there is a lot on CIA, books, documentaries etc its only that you are just not interest to figure”

Did I ever say CIA is made of angels? I’d rate it as one of the worst rogue organizations in the world. It has mentored and created a monster out of the ISI. Now the master and the disciple are engaged in a sword fight against each other. How wonderful? I am really glad that India did not rush in become an ally of the US after Independence. The CIA would never have allowed any democracy to set root in India. India would have become a banana republic or splintered into many nations, civil wars and chaos. Though the Russians were no angels, they left us alone to handle our internal matters. Your leaders eagerly offered their heads to the Americans and look at what they have done to your country. At least in the USA, the CIA does not get to control the country’s destiny. ISI on the other hand, does. So it has grown beyond its expected potential and now has become a danger to the whole region, including Pakistan. This is something, you will not realize because of your faith in your military. Though India is cozying up with the West, we have our skeptics about the benevolence of the US. So we will be cautious. We have tried to emphasize and rely on our own independent thinking. Our economic growth is not entirely reliant on the US either.

Honey traps are common techniques used by intelligence agencies to infiltrate and scout agents. Do not assume the RAW is not doing the same thing inside Pakistan. You lose a point if your agent gets caught.

Umairpk: “The only good option, as Joe Biden said is to accept the reality, and make peace with Taliban. Ok, it will be humiliating for a super power to accept defeat.”

Making a settlement is not tantamount to defeat. A defeat is something where one party surrenders unconditionally to the other. For example, General Niazi’s surrender in Dhaka is a well documented defeat. The ceasefire agreement signed between India and Pakistan in 1948 or 1965 is not surrender. When Musharraf had to wipe off the egg on his face after forced to withdraw from Kargil, that is a defeat. You need to know the difference between defeat, surrender and negotiated settlement. So do not celebrate yet.

“But US is not alone in history, didn’t the Soviet Union accept its defeat gracefully and left Afghanistan. Saving face is always good, but at what expense is the question? ”

The US might gracefully exit from Afghanistan. But it will leave land mines inside Pakistan to cause long term effects that will not be conducive for a better future. They not only fight wars with weapons and soldiers, but also by other means. The Soviets lost to the US in Afghanistan by the latter method. Soviet Union disappeared. The same might happen to your country. I am not wishing for it. Big guys do not like defeat and if they get to survive and hang around, the counter punch is coming. The US drove Saddam’s army out of Kuwait in 1991. But they returned in 2003 to completely destroy his power base. Vengeance is something the powerful guys will exercise if they can.

Umairpk: “Crooks In Action or state sponsored terrorists? you decide.”

I am not arguing against you here. CIA is a rogue organization as bad as the ISI. I’d like to have an international law that prohibits countries from running such organizations. Their activities must be curtailed to just gathering intelligence and they should not be allowed to stage clandestine wars, assassinations, coups, proxy wars etc. That makes them criminal organizations. Your ISI has gone one step further. It has begun to rely on radicalized elements. That is a dangerous weapon. At some point it will eat Pakistan itself alive. We are seeing the demonstration of that already.

Matrixx: “As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.”

The “K” word has brought Pakistan to where it is. It is better off for Pakistan to give up the claim and move on. India is not going to budge because of geo-strategic reasons. Pakistan has bankrupted itself trying to wrest Kashmir out of India’s hand. At least it had US dollars pouring in before. Now that is going to dry up. Not only the US, its lap dogs will follow suit as well. Jihadi machinery will not help. Everything has been tried and has failed utterly. If you Pakistanis seriously want to live well, take a look at your country and see if you can help build it.

> As far as peace with Pakistan, you know the price India has to pay or may be I should not mention the “K” word to spare hurt to your feelings.

“K” word? Did you mean Karma?? That’s the price _Pakistan_ is already paying for sponsoring violence against its perceived enemies, isn’t it?

Seriously though, your favourite issue of Kashmir will be settled when two things happen:

1. Pakistanis begin to accept that being Muslim is not a valid reason to leave India. Indian Muslims have lately become more vocal in asserting their identity as Indians and telling Pakistanis to back off. It may take a while for the message to sink in, but it eventually will. [India should thank Pakistan for the Mumbai 2008 attacks as these have strengthened Indian solidarity like nothing before.]

2. Kashmiris take a harder look at their options and realise that staying within India is more viable for them than either joining Pakistan or going it alone. There are already success stories of Kashmiri businessmen (Muslims, not just Pundits) making it big in Bangalore, Mumbai, etc. Give it a few more years and they’ll settle down. Money always talks louder than violence.

Meanwhile, Matrixx, maybe you guys need to look at your own “B” before it becomes another “B”. Get it?

Ganesh: “India should thank Pakistan for the Mumbai 2008 attacks as these have strengthened Indian solidarity like nothing before”

By staging Mumbai attacks, Pakistan shot itself in the foot. It was another Kargil type incursion that backfired on Pakistan. It has made other countries identify with India – UK had London bombings, Spain had Madrid bombing, US had 9/11. Terrorists in all these events were traced back to Pakistan. In the past these countries ignored India’s woes when Pakistan caused trouble. Now one by one, they have begun to understand India’s resilience and strength against terrorism and have curtailed Pakistan’s military severely by tying foreign aid with conditions. Pakistan has shut out the avenue for resources in order to stage proxy wars by trying the Mumbai attacks.

It is possible that India let Mumbai attacks happen. In the long run, India gained and Pakistan burnt its own rear end. Though innocents died at the hands of militants, I don’t think our intelligence system is that dumb. They slipped in SIM cards into Pakistan and these cards appeared in the cell phones of the militants. Then they could listen to all the commands coming from Pakistan during the attacks. If they could do that much, I can bet they could have prevented it as well. But in strategic games, one aims for long term damage to the enemy. Pakistan faced international isolation and condemnation as a result of Mumbai attacks. Now the Americans and their allies are openly accusing Pakistan of its duplicity and double dealing. I won’t be surprised if Dawood Ibrahim has a deal with the RAW to act as a mole inside Pakistan. I don’t think the guy would be alive otherwise. Just my speculations.

@Ganesh Prasad
What I mentioned the famous “K” word, it was in context of peace and economic cooperation and what it would take but right away you go to “atutang” position. I expected it and that is fine but don’t talk about cooperation if you are going to do that.

My main query at this point is your reaction to what Joe said. Your position is that Taliban are your enemy. No good or bad Taliban. Do you still maintain that position? Now who is going to save your strategic partner? Now is the time to stand up and be counted as global leader.

You don’t seem to understand the subtle difference between rejecting the Two-Nation Theory (TNT) and advocating “Akhand Bharat”, “Atoot Ang” and other expressions of territorial claims. One does not automatically imply the other. Can you understand this?

Most Indians (apart from the Hindu right wing who don’t speak for the majority of us) reject the Two-Nation Theory because we believe that people of all religions can live together as equals in our country. Our experience over the last 64 years has largely borne out that belief. This *does not mean* that we do not recognise Pakistan’s right to exist as a separate nation or that we want to take it back.

This is a subtle point that you really need to get into your heads. We accept Pakistan’s right to exist and respect it as a sovereign country. Heck, we don’t even mind your hanging on to AJK and Gilgit-Baltistan. We make statements of having the right to ALL of Kashmir for political reasons but on the ground, we believe in maintaining the status quo. You keep what you’ve got and we’ll keep what we’ve got.

So India is no threat to your territorial integrity. All we’re saying is that the Two-Nation Theory cannot be used to claim Kashmir, because being Muslim is not a reason to leave India. You guys think that’s a good enough reason. We don’t. And by “we”, I mean all Indians, including Indian Muslims.

This is the real issue you need to understand. The past effect of the Two-Nation Theory is accepted (the creation of Pakistan), and we don’t seek to reverse it. We just don’t want it applied again in future because we simply don’t believe in it. Our existence as a secular state is us walking the talk, which we have done quite successfully with only a few aberrations.
[Those aberrations are our internal issue and we will pursue justice for them. Even Hindus have not forgotten the atrocities against Sikhs in 1984 and Muslims in 2002, and we will get justice for our fellow citizens one day.]

India is not under any pressure today. We’re doing fine. It is Pakistan that is under enormous pressure. Hence your statement that India needs to pay a price to pursue peace with Pakistan is deluded thinking.

>> “maybe you guys need to look at your own “B” before it becomes another “B”. Get it?”
> Ganesh, before that happens, Pakistan will nuke India.

Cool down, Umair. You don’t have to see Indian shadows behind every rock. Your army and Frontier Corps are doing an excellent job of alienating the Baloch even without Indian help. You created Bangladesh by exploiting East Pakistan and refusing to share political power with them. No wonder they wanted out, and Indian intervention was just icing on the cake. You’ve been doing the same with the Baloch. Your own media have documented the tortures and deaths there. Now the Baloch say they’ve reached the point of no return and want out too. Where does India come into this?

If you treat your people well, why would they want out? Men at their worst – Pakistan Army.

Ganesh: “Now the Baloch say they’ve reached the point of no return and want out too. ”

The reason Pakistan needs conflicts in the region is because it is the only way to keep its fragile unity intact. Fissures have been there right from the start – Pashtuns never wanted to be a part of Pakistan. They never recognized the Durand line. Balochistan was simply annexed without their consent. East Pakistan was geographically and otherwise had all the chances to go on its own. In order to engage the Pashtuns, Pakistan sent them into Kashmir and saw to that the conflict never ends. War against the Soviets helped direct all the divisive forces outward towards an infidel enemy. That war got over. After that war got over, Kashmir conflict was revived to keep Pakistan’s unity intact. They managed to pull in ten years that way. War on terror ended up zeroing in on Pakistan itself. Now they have started playing America as the enemy, Taliban as the Islamic saviors etc to milk benefits out of another conflict. India is needed as an enemy for the same reason. If issues can be created inside India, and India is forced to retaliate, that would buy more time to keep the fast drying glue to keep Pakistan united. If they had taken Kashmir in 1948, they would not have settled with that. They would be blaming India for helping Kashmiris fight Pakistan’s integrity and existence and would be sharpening their swords. Pakistani leaders could have worked towards economic prosperity and progress. That would have helped all the diverse regions and groups to stay on. Instead they chose muscle power as the method. This is a dangerous path. One has to keep on running on the treadmill of conflict to survive. If the treadmill stops, the country would fall. Peace scares Pakistan more than anything else. Though they pretend to seek settlement of issues, they will also delay it and dodge it to perpetuate the issue. At some point, things will spiral down into chaos. We are seeing it today with our own eyes.

Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine is based on minimum credible deterrence, while conventional warfare doctrine of Pakistan Army is based on offensive defense. It is very clear that any enemy, ANY ENEMY be it the US or India who attempts to either disintegrate Pakistan or jeopardize Pakistan’s territorial integrity will be nuked. there is absolutely no doubt about it. so whatever happens in Baluchistan, let it be clear no one can afford a nuclear strike. Every single inch of Baluch territory will be defended at every cost. No matter who the enemy is, no matter what its intentions are.

How come your mighty military has not said that to the US? How did Musharraf jump ship in 2001 when the Americans threatened Pakistan about sending your country back to stone age? Didn’t you have the nukes then? How come nukes were not used during Kargil conflict? It is all bravado and macho stuff. No one will take Pakistan seriously for these claims. If a problem is created to divide up Pakistan by the powers, it will not be through direct war. Pakistan has been weakened economically and otherwise already. All it takes is a few mines to go off internally and Pakistan will be on a tail spin along with its nukes. There is no time to buy time. Pakistan should try to mend its ways with the US. Going head on with the US will be a long term disaster. It is because of the US, Pakistan has managed to survive for this long.

Easier said than done! It’s easy for pimple faced, emotional nobodys to make such foolish statements on internet forums but not so much, for the leader of a country who very well knows that the reaction of such an action will result in total decimation of your country & it’s entire population. In any event, as others have pointed out, Baluchistan will secede from Pakistan, not because India, US or anyone else wants it to. It will, because the Balochs want it & because your army is fueling their sentiments. What will your army do, under such circumstances, nuke Baluchistan or conduct another East Pakistan style genocide?

I don’t know if Khan directly or indirectly was involved in getting the centrifugal technology to India or not. I can see efforts to turn Pak against him. Right now he is one of the “fathers” of Pakistan. That can change if it is found that he was sleeping with the “worst enemy”. In the bargain he can reveal more about Pakistan’s nuclear secrets to the world. He could be accused of being a RAW agent

1. Nukes are not butterflies that you can release them on whomsoever you wanted. Pakistanis invoking the “so called threat” of nuclear use is a charade that does not cut ice with us. We had war with you in Kargil under the nuclear hangover and Army was confident it would contain the battle for spreading into other war zones even with use of Fighter Aircraft. Seven years after reforms and India was throughly moving in an unquestioned direction of progress and political leadership did not want the war to expand because the business leaders were concerened it affects our intersts who were just getting their wings.

2.The relevance of Nukes die the moment adversary also gets hold of them, the reason we got ourselves was not because of you but because of China. China had its utility until India went nuclear. Our posession of Nukes was never to threaten you since by the end of 1971 war, you were already cut down to size and Conventional weaponry was adequate to subdue. It is in our manic blind belief that you turn a new leaf led Pakistan to deceive us again and go even nasty with proxy war.

3. Nuclear weapons are only weapons of deterrence and not weapons of utility and our fear of your nukes arise due to the instable nature of your country in which, by being your most perceivably hated enemy, we have lot of stakes. Imagine a case if India were to transfer nuclear technology,nay, few nukes to Afghanistan. It sure your army generals would be wetting your pants, since Afghanistan is even more unstable. No we wont do it, because we are not China which is not responsible to anybody.

4. The more instable the country is the more nervous it gets and the more nervous it gets, the more it looks for tools to assert itself. Your calling of China was all weather friend without equal reciprocity on their side, you constant harping of nukes to counter reasonable arguments (funny really) makes you only look more fluttered with fear and is only a symptom of the states actual problem. You know what, on a terribly perverted note, even if you use on us. Its going to unite our country even more with religious, cultural and social faultlines getting blurred. You have seen it during kargil and you will see again. Nobody wants to break a country because it is physically weaker but everybody tries their hand if that country tries to destablize the entire region.

5. Believe if the push comes to shove and indeed some province of the Pakistan is to secede, your army would not use nukes against India (even hypothetically if we are the cause of your troubles) because we know the charecter of your army than Pakistani’s who are blinded with one sided love to your military dont see it. Pakistani Army is so indulged in material and worldly pleasures that they would not try something that stupid. Why wouldn’t they just continue the hate propoganda against India and status-quo rather than ending their great loot of your country. I hope mullahs wont take over your country by that time.

6.Remember Soviet nukes didn’t help it in avoid the disintegration of the state and it was political failure and imagination that undid the USSR not external interference. The rapidly growing population with little hope and low growth rates is the disaster waiting for you unless you correct it.

7.It is known woldwide that Instable nations attract terrorists, extra national characters and other miscreants. Once they enter and get entrenched and these terrorist organisation have strong disincentive to stabilize a state, since if it stabilizes they are the first to get arrested. And these organizations know if the country is instable (with no political structures) and has nukes, then no external power can threaten the country physically and the more emboldened they get and the more instability they create. It is not surprsing that Pakistan has become an epicentre of not only terrorism but also drug mafia and other syndicates (in any case they cannot rival the biggest mafia, the Army and I hope they wont).

8.Forget about the political leaders even the common man today do not speak of nukes that lightly and it says something about you. Understand if the country uses nukes unilaterally, it becomes completely isolated from International community and its citizens are hunted (on grounds of suspicio) anywhere they reside and anybody you thought were your friend (by the assosiation of faith or due to common geopolitical interests) would shy away from helping you. If you do not know the please read how nazis were hunted for two decades even after the world war ended even hunting in SouthAmerica and killing with mere suspicion. If you are Non Resident Pakistani, its going to get even more ugly. It also costs your economy.
And I may not sure if I have spoken too much to get into your head as somebody said you cannot digest so much knowledge by one swoop.

The US is watching both Iran and Pakistan. Iran is itching to go at Israel once its nukes and delivery systems get ready. Pakistan might do a desperate death choke act of trying to nuke India as a last resort suicide attempt. If Pakistan-US relations end abruptly and the war in Afghanistan faces a dead end, the US might change its agenda from war on terrorism to de-nuclearizing the two rogue nations, forcibly if it has to. Economy is in the tank. Jobs are disappearing. Politicians have to face their voters. There is nothing better than a couple of rogue nations with their fingers on the nuclear trigger. Within a year, if US cannot resolve its issues with Pakistan diplomatically, the next war will begin. Pakistan might do something stupid to draw India into a conflict and it might shoot itself in the foot as a result. After Mumbai attacks, the US and its allies have begun to side with India. The US would want to protect its assets in India at the same time. If Umair can itch so much to use the nukes, imagine the mindset of the radicalized personnel inside Pakistan’s military establishment and the non-state actors. Pakistan can no longer deceive others. It has to face the moment of truth very soon.

Some sane voices in Pakistan have begun to analyse the reasons why Bangladesh left the union: http://bit.ly/uNoi1G

Everything cannot be blamed on India. The same goes for Balochistan today. The Punjabi-dominated establishment is treating the Baloch exactly the way they treated the Bengalis decades ago, and they should not be surprised if the results are similar.

Threatening to nuke India for a domestic policy failure is just lame. It also shows an unwillingness to address problems and their real source.

ganesh: “Threatening to nuke India for a domestic policy failure is just lame. It also shows an unwillingness to address problems and their real source.”

The nuke thing is a reflex action, from what I observe. It has nothing to do with any reasoning. After Inshallah, the next word that comes automatically in their mouths is the “we’ll nuke you” phrase. It is basically to tell themselves that they are scared, but not scared. It is like a little boy telling himself to be brave while in the dark looking for mommy. The nuke word comes out automatically if anything is poked at an internal crisis by someone, especially by an Indian.

Ganesh:
“Threatening to nuke India for a domestic policy failure is just lame. It also shows an unwillingness to address problems and their real source.”

-No one is denying a domestic policy failure in Baluchistan, I know more than you regarding the corrective actions being taken to sort it out and avoid a screw up. India can still exacerbate the situation in Baluchistan by supporting dissidents based in Kabul. What I am stating is that any 1971 style situation developing, Pakistan MUST nuke India. Simple. There should be no doubt about it in India. Keep away from Baluchistan is the best advice. It is another story if you want to play with fire. In 1971 had India not supported the Mukti Bahni, East Pakistan could have been saved. Today, there is no margin of error, you mess up and you get perished.

When dealing with people who have criminal minds, one is always careful, even if he is armed and well protected. The criminal has no accountability and therefore one can anticipate him to cause harm to others. Pakistan is being looked at from this perspective by most nations now. We have always known that Pakistan is a rogue state. We are not scared of you. We are being cautious. If criminals can be crippled, it helps a lot. Pakistan is approached from that standpoint. Your forefathers fought and got a nation for Muslims. But they did not know what to do with it. Experience shows that religion can never be a uniting force and East Pakistan clearly demonstrated that. Now Pashtuns and Balochis will demonstrate that too. You can pull the trigger on your nuke button as much as you want. We are all prepared for that scenario. It is only a matter of time before Pakistan itself engages in a suicide mission. But you cannot prevent your provinces from splintering off. At that time your nukes will end up in many hands and you might need the nukes to subdue your Islamic brothers in those provinces more than you will need against India. We will help them if we see an opportunity. Who wants to have criminal thugs next door? Unfortunately your country has taken that path. It wants easy way out of things without having to work and earn for itself. It has made more enemies than before. Thump your chest as much as you want. Your nukes won’t make a dent. It might end up uniting us even more. Mumbai attacks have already done that. If you want to weaken India, uniting us will not help. But come forward with your nukes. No one is losing sleep over it here.

Have the world not seen enough from the USA killing machine? Must the Indians and Pakistan killing machines demonstrate the power of their killing machines? Prudene and vernunft is what the two emotional neighbours need? Here are some of the suggestions;

. First make a Nation out of the diverse people who live in your lands.
. Decolonise your armies and make them true National Armies, which refuses illegal orders and do not kill its citizens but defend them against foreign intruders.

. Educate, educate and educate your people and reform national institutions.

. Eradicate poverty in the land by motivating the people of the land to work hard and work hard and work honestly.

Your lands are the future civilisations and need special attention; the USA is becoming softer in manufacturing and its economy now rest on the casino capitalism! Real economy has left them and relying on export of weaponry is not enough to make them any longer the leader of the west? Save your emotions since the alternative is asuicide for yours and the people of the world!

“all I know is one more mischief in Baluchistan and India gets nuked. Try it.” Posted by Umairpk

You don’t know diddly squat, man! Your establishment has been screaming for years now, that India has been creating mischief in Baluchistan & other pakistani provinces. So, what the heck are your guys waiting for? There’s a lot of difference in having a big mouth & big balls. To others, your empty threats are nothing but hilarious mouse-farts.

LOL. Umair talks about nuking India like he is the COAS himself. It’s nonsense. Nobody knows Pakistan’s nuclear redlines. Least of all some random internet poster named Umair.

Pakistan is not going to nuke anybody. Under what scenario is it even possible? Let’s take a look at some here:

1) Balochistan breaks out into full blown insurgency and some Indian involvement is found. Let’s say this happens (although it’s implausible given the size of the Balochi population), there would still be no credible excuse for Pakistan to nuke anybody. Or by Umair’s logic, India or the US would have every right to turn Lahore or Islamabad or Karachi into a glass parking lot for every Pakistan-linked terrorist attack.

2) India conducts air strikes or even limited military incursions into Pakistan in response to a terror attack. Again. No excuse. With such a massive conventional army, the world would not tolerate any slight incursion as an excuse for nuclear retaliation. Least of all when the Indian attack is in response to a Pakistan-originated terror attack. And this scenario excludes the high likelihood of foreign nationals also being targetted, drawing in US, UK, European involvement as well.

All that is setting aside the fact that most Pakistanis aren’t as moronic or as suicidal as some of the posters here. That Umair talks so casually about employing nukes, shows that he’s utterly ignorant on the topic of military affairs. I suggest that other posters start treating his posts on nuclear escalation with same credibility most of us accord to Rex Minor and his routine warnings for the imminent (in the next 5 minutes) demise of the USA.

You can save this forum for serious discussion or start trading yelps and squeals with monkeys who have a limited knowledge base and intellect. Your choice.

This bandit state is caught between a rock and a hard place. It has to grow up and end its delusional confrontation with India. India’s economy grows by leaps and bounds while Pakistan remains mired in the stone age. In the meanwhile any idea it can take on the United
States is retarded at best, and should it even attempt to use nuclear weapons, it will be hammered into ashes. In short grow up, end ties to trouble making terrorists, and whack everybody in the ISI, the centerpiece of state sponsored terrorism. Or else another country will do it for them and the poor people will be more miserable than ever.

I wonder if the leader of afganistan read the news today it seems that the taliban in pakistan killed 14 (fourteen) pakistan soldiers and then cut off their heads and planted them in the center of town
I quess it’s alright for them to due it to themselves animals will alway’s be animals Mr. Kazahhki or whatever you call yourselves your whole country isnot WORTH ONE AMERICAN LIFE YOU UNGRATFULL BASTSRD