Naggly Nagger wrote:kol - money / currency is a loose term. i definetaly understand the concept of it, and the central banking system. the problem is corruption from people who seek their stimulation from conquest.

kol - near future is a relative term. there is no doubt that the current society is depleting millions and billions of resources at a very fast rate. one way to measure efficiency is by the amount of waste produced. the amount of waste in the world is almost surging!

Central banking is a ridiculous scheme. An even more ridiculous scheme would be to attempt to "intelligently" plan the future. Fresco is a glorified philosopher-architect, who's grand plans are not immune to the fatal conceit. [Edit: He's a Mike Dukakis style Technocrat]

Also, I don't think I added any qualifiers to how Simon conceptualized the "future". The future is the future. Productivity gains will catch up and outpace population growth.

kol taggar wrote:Central banking is a ridiculous scheme. An even more ridiculous scheme would be to attempt to "intelligently" plan the future. Fresco is a glorified philosopher-architect, who's grand plans are not immune to the fatal conceit. [Edit: He's a Mike Dukakis style Technocrat]

Also, I don't think I added any qualifiers to how Simon conceptualized the "future". The future is the future. Productivity gains will catch up and outpace population growth.

I dont think anyone, Fresco included, deem his plan perfect. No doubt in my mind that its totally on the other side of the spectrum.

The future is the future? this is one of the most ridiculous ideas i've ever heard. The past is the past, but you can change or predict the outcome of the future. Productivity? as in waste and destruction?

Naggly Nagger wrote:i was hoping this would hit 10 pages by the weekend, it didnt

kol taggar wrote:Central banking is a ridiculous scheme. An even more ridiculous scheme would be to attempt to "intelligently" plan the future. Fresco is a glorified philosopher-architect, who's grand plans are not immune to the fatal conceit. [Edit: He's a Mike Dukakis style Technocrat]

Also, I don't think I added any qualifiers to how Simon conceptualized the "future". The future is the future. Productivity gains will catch up and outpace population growth.

I dont think anyone, Fresco included, deem his plan perfect. No doubt in my mind that its totally on the other side of the spectrum.

The future is the future? this is one of the most ridiculous ideas i've ever heard. The past is the past, but you can change or predict the outcome of the future. /quote]

I don't even know what you are trying to argue here? Like, what is your position on whether population growth may be unsustainable? Additionally, you aren't commenting on the implications of central planning, you are just praising Fresco for "caring". The one time that you did make an assertion, I contended it and provided some background from the historical debate.

Lets recap (read slowly)

First:http://fremenknights.com/forum/topic?f= ... 15#p215703Phain put forth the notion of sustainability. To which I replied that it was my opinion that the "Malthusian notion of population growth outpacing productivity gains and leading to starvation and famine", is not one of economic thoughts's most convincing arguments. I said that I believed that, most recently, economist Julian Simon had done a good job refuting this notion.

Then you said: kol - near future is a relative term. there is no doubt that the current society is depleting millions and billions of resources at a very fast rate. one way to measure efficiency is by the amount of waste produced.

Then I said: I don't think I added any qualifiers to how Simon conceptualized the "future". The future is the future. Productivity gains will catch up and outpace population growth.

So it would seem to me that perhaps you did not read what I wrote, or follow the links that I provided which gave some insight into how this debate has gone back and forth over time.

As far as this goes:

Productivity? as in waste and destruction

If you aren't familiar with the term productivity I'm going to save myself the time and discontinue my involvement in this discussion.

kol taggar wrote:If you aren't familiar with the term productivity I'm going to save myself the time and discontinue my involvement in this discussion.

I'm not arguing your thoughts on wether or not we can produce food to sustain the future population, thats not a very dificult goal to achieve in almost any scenario.

I just wasnt sure what type of productivity you were refering to, since most everything produced now is a waste of resources and destructive to the enviroment.

The resources i'm referring to that are being depleted at a fast rate is oil, metel, gems.

The destruction i'm referring to is the outcome of war, burning of oil, electronics, packaging material(ie food), pretty much anything man made (because it is produced with no intentions of lasting), construction material..this is a short list just off the top of my head

edit: as far as you saying "the furture is the future", im simply saying its a ridiculous statement. if you would say "the past is the past" i could agree, actions cant be reversed. When you say the future is the future, it sounds like your implying that once we drain all the oil out of the ground and deplete the o-zone layer we can focus on other fuel sources, wear bubble suits out, and live on boats. All i'm saying is the future is not just simply the future, it can be anticipated and planned for.

edit2: if you want to think i praise him, thats ok, i basically just think he has had some good ideas, and brought those forth to the people. it's the peoples choice if they choose to go forth with the current society. people have been assainated for speaking out on idea / concepts far less life changing than his. as far as the "central planning", i'm not sure where you came up with that term. fresco's and many other peoples ideas would be backed by science...not politicians or capitalists

to sum it up, these 2 guys made a wager about prices of metal, during the height of the cold war. And in 10 years(pretty short timeframe), almost at the US's peak economic growth(when the dollar is worth the most), they compared prices.

compare the prices of those metals now if you want, but all of this is not a valid arguement in rebutal to the fact that this society is depleting and wasting resources

to sum it up, these 2 guys made a wager about prices of metal, during the height of the cold war. And in 10 years(pretty short timeframe), almost at the US's peak economic growth(when the dollar is worth the most), they compared prices. in)

That link was just the most recent example I could provide of this discussion playing out in the academic realm. The real point was that people have been making the kinds of claims you are making about "using up resources" for a very long time. It just gets tiresome to listen to the enlightened few preach, over and over again, about how we are on a path to failure.