That getting paid part is bothersome. If he can stay healthy at the right price sure but this is the problem with these receivers with crap like this. The Packers will not miss a beat without this guy whose sister seems to think he is bigger than the team but lets face it , she got that from him.He will miss Rodgers & that group of receivers who require more coverage more than he knows. Still once he cashes his checks hopefully when the losses pile up he will remain quiet.Draft a WR , other teams have rookies at these skilled positions make an immediate impact , why cant we?? (Acorns?)

That getting paid part is bothersome. If he can stay healthy at the right price sure but this is the problem with these receivers with crap like this. The Packers will not miss a beat without this guy whose sister seems to think he is bigger than the team but lets face it , she got that from him.He will miss Rodgers & that group of receivers who require more coverage more than he knows. Still once he cashes his checks hopefully when the losses pile up he will remain quiet.Draft a WR , other teams have rookies at these skilled positions make an immediate impact , why cant we?? (Acorns?)

Come on Mitch, there is nothing wrong with using free agency to strengthen your team if you use it correctly.

AND it is his sister running off at the mouth for some reason, not Greg. The drawback with Greg is he will be 30 when the season starts, bu the knows the offense because he plays in it right now.

The Dolphins will still most likely draft a WR, but I agree that they need to bring in a productive veteran WR as well.

That getting paid part is bothersome. If he can stay healthy at the right price sure but this is the problem with these receivers with crap like this. The Packers will not miss a beat without this guy whose sister seems to think he is bigger than the team but lets face it , she got that from him.He will miss Rodgers & that group of receivers who require more coverage more than he knows. Still once he cashes his checks hopefully when the losses pile up he will remain quiet.Draft a WR , other teams have rookies at these skilled positions make an immediate impact , why cant we?? (Acorns?)

Come on Mitch, there is nothing wrong with using free agency to strengthen your team if you use it correctly.

AND it is his sister running off at the mouth for some reason, not Greg. The drawback with Greg is he will be 30 when the season starts, bu the knows the offense because he plays in it right now.

The Dolphins will still most likely draft a WR, but I agree that they need to bring in a productive veteran WR as well.

Tone , I agree about using it correctly. I did not even get into the age thing which you correctly stated. I just dont think signing any of these egotistic receivers is using it correctly. Jennings has Rogers & that receiving core which quite frankly allows him to be shielded from defenses. I just question how these guys will have to deal with reality when opposing defenses will be able to focus on them as a feature receiver as well as having Tannehill doing the throwing as opposed to who they have doing the throwing now. Draft a WR , then pull in somebody in that next tier of free agent WR"s. They are usually the hungry ones with a chip who have something to prove. As far as his sister doing the talking ... cmon , she is getting it from him. He knows he cant say that stuff now. He is starting his campaign for free agency this way & it is just wrong. Sort of like when JJ was campaigning for Shula's job in mid season from the fox sports desk. That got Shula fired & the rest is history. Jennings is writing his ticket out of Green Bay , they are not a franchise to put up with that. We got rid of guys who went that route. We need to be careful.

Jennings is a phenomenal talent when healthy. I wouldn't mind signing him if we could add another WR in the draft in one of the first two rounds ... but not necessary. Adding him, if healthy, could be as impactful as Reggie Wayne is for the Colts.

Here's his injury history. As we can see, his problems have been the last two years, and the injuries are unrelated. I don't see anything really serious here such as an ACL or such.

Jennings is a phenomenal talent when healthy. I wouldn't mind signing him if we could add another WR in the draft in one of the first two rounds ... but not necessary. Adding him, if healthy, could be as impactful as Reggie Wayne is for the Colts.

I think it would be great to add Jennings and a 2nd round WR, turning a glaring weakness into a big strength when you add those two to Bess and Hartline. This would be the year to do it because we can afford the FA under te cap and usin the pick would force us to ignore other needs, as we have enough picks to attend to most needs

That seems to be the big knock on Jennings. He is always coming back from something. And the older he gets the more likely it will be that he will be having to come back from something... or not be able to come back at all.

I think realistically he's the most likely free agent WR to sign with us... and then we'll address it again via the draft.

I think those hoping for Wallace and Bowe will be disappointed.

I agree, from what I've heard from Philbin he'd much rather see us build this team through the draft. Jennings however is so familiar with our staff that signing him would be almost like re-signing someone who is already on the roster. If we do sign a big free agent, I agree it will be Jennings.

I would love to see us trade back in the 1st round, pick up some extra picks, draft a receiver in the late 1st and pair that guy up with Jennings, Hartline, and Bess. Jennings is an excellent receiver, not only is he a proven contributor and he has the physical skillset we're looking for, but he's also a guy who I could see leading and mentoring our young receiver group. I'd love to see us add Jennings. But only after the draft, that way we can get the 3rd round compensatory for Long.

I'd love to see us add Jennings. But only after the draft, that way we can get the 3rd round compensatory for Long.

You keep saying we would get a 3rd round pick for Long and people keep pointing out to you that this is unlikely because in 2013 a salary cap floor will be in place.

The requirement is that a team spend at minimum 89% of their cap space in cash.

The salary cap is estimated to be at $127 million. If everything remained the same, we are projected to have $76 million spent. We need to spend about $37 million to meet the 89% threshold, so chances are the Dolphins will spend a significant amount of that money in free agency and therefore chances are the compensatory pick we would receive for Long would not be a 3rd rounder. More likely a 6th or 7th rounder.

Capiche?

Also, Jennings will not be available after the draft... that's a pipe dream...

I'd love to see us add Jennings. But only after the draft, that way we can get the 3rd round compensatory for Long.

You keep saying we would get a 3rd round pick for Long and people keep pointing out to you that this is unlikely because in 2013 a salary cap floor will be in place.

The requirement is that a team spend at minimum 89% of their cap space in cash.

The salary cap is estimated to be at $127 million. If everything remained the same, we are projected to have $76 million spent. We need to spend about $37 million to meet the 89% threshold, so chances are the Dolphins will spend a significant amount of that money in free agency and therefore chances are the compensatory pick we would receive for Long would not be a 3rd rounder. More likely a 6th or 7th rounder.

Capiche?

Also, Jennings will not be available after the draft... that's a pipe dream...

And even if he did, it would still impact the compensatory pick for Long. We wouldn't "still get" a 3rd.

We'll likely be spending more than Long gets, so I doubt we get any draft picks at all for him.

I'm just afraid that you're paying for his name, and not future performance given his age and recent injury history.

Not really a huge fan of paying aging players for production given to other teams. Jennings could have another 5 yrs of solid/great production or could spend 3 yrs ( before a team gives up ) coming back from another injury.

I'm just afraid that you're paying for his name, and not future performance given his age and recent injury history.

Not really a huge fan of paying aging players for production given to other teams. Jennings could have another 5 yrs of solid/great production or could spend 3 yrs ( before a team gives up ) coming back from another injury.

Jennings will be the biggest gamble of the WR market.

Dphins, who do you like more, Jennings or Wallace? I am guessing Wallace since you think Greg could be the biggest gamble at WR in FA.

For the record, I do like Wallace and his speed would be a big plus for Miami. To me, he just not as complete a WR as Jennings. He does have age and the lack of a injury history on his side.

I'd love to see us add Jennings. But only after the draft, that way we can get the 3rd round compensatory for Long.

You keep saying we would get a 3rd round pick for Long and people keep pointing out to you that this is unlikely because in 2013 a salary cap floor will be in place.

The requirement is that a team spend at minimum 89% of their cap space in cash.

The salary cap is estimated to be at $127 million. If everything remained the same, we are projected to have $76 million spent. We need to spend about $37 million to meet the 89% threshold, so chances are the Dolphins will spend a significant amount of that money in free agency and therefore chances are the compensatory pick we would receive for Long would not be a 3rd rounder. More likely a 6th or 7th rounder.

Capiche?

Also, Jennings will not be available after the draft... that's a pipe dream...

You're assuming we don't use the majority of that money re-signing our veteran free agents as well as giving extensions to guys like Pouncey, Jones, etc. We could very easily spend $37M re-signing Bush, Fasano, Starks, Smith, Hartline, etc. and giving extensions to guys like Pouncey, Jones, Carpenter, etc. Those kinds of moves wouldn't hurt our chances at getting a compensatory pick. While I agree that getting Jennings is a pipe dream after the draft. Who knows, maybe Ireland and Philbin could work out some sort of back door deal that allows him to get his deal after we get our pick? I'm sure that's some sort of violation, but you can't tell me this kind of stuff doesn't happen.

Last edited by wkloiber13 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

In terms of team need I would prefer Wallace but I think the bidding war might be a problem.

We need a seasoned leader like Jennings just as badly as we need a selfish burner like Wallace. Jennings has been the more productive receiver throughout his career. Not only that, but there would be a minimal learning curve for the guy considering how well he knows our coaches and the type of system we run. Jennings would be an instant #1 receiver and a leader for our receiver group. As far as adding a burner, we could easily do that in the draft. Someone like Robert Woods will be available in the late 1st to early 2nd probably.

You're assuming we don't use the majority of that money on re-signing our veteran free agents as well as giving extensions to guys like Pouncey, Jones, etc.

Extensions typically lower cap numbers in the first year of the extension. Pouncey in particular counts about $2.5 million against the cap, so any extension would probably either be a wash or lower that number. Also, Pouncey is signed through 2014 at a very reasonable price, so why would the Dolphins increase that number for 2014 when he has two years left on his deal? That makes no sense.

Jones makes some sense extending now, but it still wouldn't make much of a difference.

So much for that theory.

Out of the impeding free agents, the only ones that would require sizeable deals to retain would be Hartline, Starks and Smith, maybe Reggie Bush and of course Jake Long.

So for the Dolphins to use a majority of that money on resigning veterans, they would either need to overpay for most of them or the resigning of Jake Long would need to be part of the equation.

They would need to spend roughly $30 million on Hartline, Starks, Smith and Bush (that's $7.5 million per player in 2013) in order to get in the ballpark.

Is it worth paying Bush or Smith or Hartline $7.5 million just to get a 3rd round compensatory pick for Long? Even Starks could probably be retained for less than that amount.

The only way the Dolphins use that much cap space to retain their veterans is if Long is one of the veterans they retain which would also eliminate the 3rd round compensatory pick.

Sorry dude, with what it will cost to sign our impending free agents, IF we even sign them all and how cheap signing draft picks has become, it is very likely the Dolphins will need to jump into the free agency game to meet their cap responsibilities... and all this makes it very unlikely they will get a 3rd round pick for Long...

And even if they did get it... it wouldn't happen until 2014 since compensatory picks are awarded the following offseason.

Dphins, who do you like more, Jennings or Wallace? I am guessing Wallace since you think Greg could be the biggest gamble at WR in FA.

For the record, I do like Wallace and his speed would be a big plus for Miami. To me, he just not as complete a WR as Jennings. He does have age and the lack of a injury history on his side.

I like Jennings talent over Wallace, but I'd go after Wallace because of his youth & deep ability, which I think Miami needs more. He is not the Wr Jennings happens to be, but is younger & is not void of talent.

I'd sign Jennings, but would go after Wallace first. If I signed either, then I'd still look at a Wr in Rd. 2 or 3 & let Hartline walk, because I believe his contract will far overvalue his production.

We need a seasoned leader like Jennings just as badly as we need a selfish burner like Wallace.

Why is Wallace selfish?

wkloiber13 wrote:

Jennings has been the more productive receiver throughout his career.

If you compare the first 4 yrs of their career, they are pretty much even.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Not only that, but there would be a minimal learning curve for the guy considering how well he knows our coaches and the type of system we run. Jennings would be an instant #1 receiver and a leader for our receiver group. As far as adding a burner, we could easily do that in the draft. Someone like Robert Woods will be available in the late 1st to early 2nd probably.

You're assuming we don't use the majority of that money on re-signing our veteran free agents as well as giving extensions to guys like Pouncey, Jones, etc.

Extensions typically lower cap numbers in the first year of the extension. Pouncey in particular counts about $2.5 million against the cap, so any extension would probably either be a wash or lower that number. Also, Pouncey is signed through 2014 at a very reasonable price, so why would the Dolphins increase that number for 2014 when he has two years left on his deal? That makes no sense.

Jones makes some sense extending now, but it still wouldn't make much of a difference.

So much for that theory.

Out of the impeding free agents, the only ones that would require sizeable deals to retain would be Hartline, Starks and Smith, maybe Reggie Bush and of course Jake Long.

So for the Dolphins to use a majority of that money on resigning veterans, they would either need to overpay for most of them or the resigning of Jake Long would need to be part of the equation.

They would need to spend roughly $30 million on Hartline, Starks, Smith and Bush (that's $7.5 million per player in 2013) in order to get in the ballpark.

Is it worth paying Bush or Smith or Hartline $7.5 million just to get a 3rd round compensatory pick for Long? Even Starks could probably be retained for less than that amount.

The only way the Dolphins use that much cap space to retain their veterans is if Long is one of the veterans they retain which would also eliminate the 3rd round compensatory pick.

Sorry dude, with what it will cost to sign our impending free agents, IF we even sign them all and how cheap signing draft picks has become, it is very likely the Dolphins will need to jump into the free agency game to meet their cap responsibilities... and all this makes it very unlikely they will get a 3rd round pick for Long...

And even if they did get it... it wouldn't happen until 2014 since compensatory picks are awarded the following offseason.

Not necessarily. Here is what I would assume our veteran free agents would cost to re-sign. Bush ($5M), Fasano ($4M), Hartline ($6M), Starks ($6M), Smith ($7-8M), and Clemons ($1M). Thats roughly $30M ($5M per player) to re-sign our veteran free agents. In addition, there are about a handful of players I would like to see us re-sign. Why would we extend Pouncey??? Because he's one of the best centers in the NFL that's why. Give the kid a three or four year extension and lock the man down until he's 30. With regards to Jones, same thing, give the kid a two to three year extension and lock him down while he's in his prime. Then you look at guys who are a little less expensive like Carpenter and Denney. They are two key parts of our special teams unit. While it probably wouldn't raise our cap number by very much, it would probably raise it at least by a couple of million between the three or four guys. Then you have to consider that we have several extra draft picks this year. How much would you think it would take to sign our rookies? I think last year was about $6M. So between $30M in veteran free agents, a couple million in extensions, and $6M or so to sign our rookies, wouldn't that hit the mark???

Not necessarily. Here is what I would assume our veteran free agents would cost to re-sign. Bush ($5M), Fasano ($4M), Hartline ($6M), Starks ($6M), Smith ($7-8M), and Clemons ($1M). Thats roughly $30M ($5M per player) to re-sign our veteran free agents. In addition, there are about a handful of players I would like to see us re-sign.

Why would we extend Pouncey??? Because he's one of the best centers in the NFL that's why. Give the kid a three or four year extension and lock the man down until he's 30.

He is signed for 2 more yrs. No need to do anything with him this year. Next year if he still plays at a high level then do something. I'd only do something with him if I had extra money which can be done well into next season.

wkloiber13 wrote:

With regards to Jones, same thing, give the kid a two to three year extension and lock him down while he's in his prime.

We need a seasoned leader like Jennings just as badly as we need a selfish burner like Wallace.

Why is Wallace selfish?

wkloiber13 wrote:

Jennings has been the more productive receiver throughout his career.

If you compare the first 4 yrs of their career, they are pretty much even.

wkloiber13 wrote:

Not only that, but there would be a minimal learning curve for the guy considering how well he knows our coaches and the type of system we run. Jennings would be an instant #1 receiver and a leader for our receiver group. As far as adding a burner, we could easily do that in the draft. Someone like Robert Woods will be available in the late 1st to early 2nd probably.

Valid comment here.

He held out last offseason and as a result he took a step back in production this year. He was openly criticized by the Steelers organization and fans for doing it. I don't care what you say, that's a red flag in my book.

While I agree that Wallace's numbers have been solid. I just have my reservations about putting up big $$$ for a one trick pony that only had 72 catches in his best year. I just think that Wallace is a 2nd tier receiver.

You're inflating the numbers on those other guys, especially in the first year of their deal. Remember, NFL contracts have amortized bonuses and lower cap numbers in the first year. So if you think Sean Smith would be an $8 million cap hit in year one, then you're talking about a $12 cap hit in year 3 or 4.

That is premiere cornerback type money. Is Sean Smith worth that?

Quote:

Why would we extend Pouncey???

He has TWO YEARS LEFT ON HIS CONTRACT. Even if they extend him it LOWERS his cap number for 2013.

Quote:

Then you look at guys who are a little less expensive like Carpenter and Denney.

Carpenter is a $3 million cap hit if nothing changes. If anything, you may see guys like Carpenter, Dmitri Patterson ($4.6 million cap hit) and even Richard Marshall ($5.7 million cap hit) get let go or restructured. You're talking about $5-12 in additional cap room right there with releases or restructures, NOT additional cap space being consumed. And you'll probably see Incognito either restructured or let go because he has a fat cap number as well.

Not necessarily. Here is what I would assume our veteran free agents would cost to re-sign. Bush ($5M), Fasano ($4M), Hartline ($6M), Starks ($6M), Smith ($7-8M), and Clemons ($1M). Thats roughly $30M ($5M per player) to re-sign our veteran free agents. In addition, there are about a handful of players I would like to see us re-sign.

Why would we extend Pouncey??? Because he's one of the best centers in the NFL that's why. Give the kid a three or four year extension and lock the man down until he's 30.

He is signed for 2 more yrs. No need to do anything with him this year. Next year if he still plays at a high level then do something. I'd only do something with him if I had extra money which can be done well into next season.

wkloiber13 wrote:

With regards to Jones, same thing, give the kid a two to three year extension and lock him down while he's in his prime.

They will

Bush is a 1,000 yard back with ability to run routes and stretch defenses. He had 8 touchdowns this year and we barely scratched the surface of what he's capable of in the passing game. I think he's definitely worth giving 3 years $15M. Fasano made $3.6M in 2012. He's hands down our best tightend. He had 5 touchdowns this year, more than our entire receiver corps. I think he's worth between $3-$4M easily. With regards to Hartline, how much do you think a $1,000 yard receiver gets paid?

Again, with regard to Pouncey. He's probably the best center in the AFC. Don't wait for him to become a $8M a season center. Also, since Long is now gone, who now becomes the leader of that offensive line??? Pouncey, that's who. The guy is extremely important to this offense. I'd love to see us give him a three years extension and pay him around $4-5M a year for the next five or six years.

Even if they resigned all those guys, there is no way any of their cap numbers would be that much in year 1. Maybe year 2 or 3, but with the way NFL contracts are structured, you'll see amortized bonuses future bonuses pushed out to year 2 or 3.

Just because a player makes $5 million a year doesn't mean he counts $5 million against the cap each year.

Additionally, Dmitri Patterson and Richard Marshall will each count in the neighborhood of $5 million against the cap in 2013. I don't see that happening. And Carpenter is scheduled to count $3 million against the cap.

If anything, the Dolphins will make moves to open up even more cap space.

He held out last offseason and as a result he took a step back in production this year. .

A player cannot hold out when he is unsigned. Wallace was a RFA last year. He was not under any contract to report to the Steelers. A holdout is signed & not coming in. Wallace was in negotiations with the Steelers.

wkloiber13 wrote:

He was openly criticized by the Steelers organization and fans for doing it. I don't care what you say, that's a red flag in my book.

A team criticizes a player for not wanting to play for them at the cheapest cost to them.. Why is Wallace bad for looking out what is best for him, but the Steelers are not bad for being cheap while looking out for what is best for them?

Fans are hypocrites, so what they say is irrelevant on this matter.

wkloiber13 wrote:

While I agree that Wallace's numbers have been solid. I just have my reservations about putting up big $$$ for a one trick pony that only had 72 catches in his best year. I just think that Wallace is a 2nd tier receiver.

Wallace may be a one trick, but he is healthy younger. Jenning is just as big of a gamble with his age & injury history.

You're inflating the numbers on those other guys, especially in the first year of their deal. Remember, NFL contracts have amortized bonuses and lower cap numbers in the first year. So if you think Sean Smith would be an $8 million cap hit in year one, then you're talking about a $12 cap hit in year 3 or 4.

That is premiere cornerback type money. Is Sean Smith worth that?

Quote:

Why would we extend Pouncey???

He has TWO YEARS LEFT ON HIS CONTRACT. Even if they extend him it LOWERS his cap number for 2013.

Quote:

Then you look at guys who are a little less expensive like Carpenter and Denney.

Carpenter is a $3 million cap hit if nothing changes. If anything, you may see guys like Carpenter, Dmitri Patterson ($4.6 million cap hit) and even Richard Marshall ($5.7 million cap hit) get let go or restructured. You're talking about $5-12 in additional cap room right there with releases or restructures, NOT additional cap space being consumed. And you'll probably see Incognito either restructured or let go because he has a fat cap number as well.

People have been speculating that we might have to franchise Smith. While I doubt that happens, I think Smith will get around $6M a year based on the position he plays and because of his size. I know it sounds high, but cornerback is a highly coveted position. At 6'3" Sean Smith will get $6M+ from somebody.

Also, I'm not an expert, but wouldn't we be penalized for cutting guys like Marshall and Carpenter? I know we have an out in Patterson's contract, but the rest would ding us as well as leave us with a need to fill an open slot.

Again with Pouncey, he's the leader of that offensive line once Long leaves in my opinion. I'd like to see us lock the kid down for cheap before he becomes and $8M a season center in two years.

That's where you aren't understanding how cap numbers work. A guy who signs 3 years, $15 mil doesn't count $5 mil against the cap in 2013.

Lets say he signed 3 years $15 mil with a $5 mil in guarantees, $3 mil of that in signing bonus. His bonus is amortized and counts $1 mil against the cap each year. The rest of the guaranteed money could be a roster bonus in year 2 or 3. That leaves $10 mil which averages to $3.3 mil a year, but contracts escalate so the base salary could be $2 mil year 1, $3 mil year 2 and $5 mil year 3.

That means Bush's cap number in 2013 would be more like $3 million in year one than $5 million.

People have been speculating that we might have to franchise Smith. While I doubt that happens, I think Smith will get around $6M a year based on the position he plays and because of his size. I know it sounds high, but cornerback is a highly coveted position. At 6'3" Sean Smith will get $6M+ from somebody.

We're getting somewhere. You said $7-$8 mil, which is absurd.

Quote:

Also, I'm not an expert, but wouldn't we be penalized for cutting guys like Marshall and Carpenter? I know we have an out in Patterson's contract, but the rest would ding us as well as leave us with a need to fill an open slot.

He held out last offseason and as a result he took a step back in production this year. .

A player cannot hold out when he is unsigned. Wallace was a RFA last year. He was not under any contract to report to the Steelers. A holdout is signed & not coming in. Wallace was in negotiations with the Steelers.

wkloiber13 wrote:

He was openly criticized by the Steelers organization and fans for doing it. I don't care what you say, that's a red flag in my book.

A team criticizes a player for not wanting to play for them at the cheapest cost to them.. Why is Wallace bad for looking out what is best for him, but the Steelers are not bad for being cheap while looking out for what is best for them?

Fans are hypocrites, so what they say is irrelevant on this matter.

wkloiber13 wrote:

While I agree that Wallace's numbers have been solid. I just have my reservations about putting up big $$$ for a one trick pony that only had 72 catches in his best year. I just think that Wallace is a 2nd tier receiver.

Wallace may be a one trick, but he is healthy younger. Jenning is just as big of a gamble with his age & injury history.

A RFA is basically the same thing as a signed player. Any team that wanted to put up a 1st round pick could have had him. But they didn't. It's because there are still question marks surround this kid and the fact that he's indicated he wants something close to what Vincent Jackson is making makes me nervous.

Wallace is on IR right now with a hip injury. While he is younger, and traditionally healthier than Jennings, he's no more productive and less talented in my opinion. I think Jennings is less of a gamble considering how well our staff knows him.