I remember seeing interviews with JD2 when he talked about disliking the Top 14 as it is much slower and more forward orientated than the Pro 12. I honestly believe Halfpenny has suffered from playing in that league - I presume also that he is being played to death as the likes of Sexton was.

George Carlin wrote:I remember seeing interviews with JD2 when he talked about disliking the Top 14 as it is much slower and more forward orientated than the Pro 12. I honestly believe Halfpenny has suffered from playing in that league - I presume also that he is being played to death as the likes of Sexton was.

The top 14 didn't harm Abendanon or Armitage. Maybe Halfpenny has just been exposed as the one trick pony he is.

Sexton's time at Racing actually started off ok before injuries and concussions began to take its toll.

Stephen Jones is correct in one instance with his assessment but I think the underlying issue is far more serious. The reason the targeting of Sexton is drawing so much attention is because of the length of time it is taking him to recover from each hit he takes.

He's always been regularly involved in big collisions but the issue now is almost each one is resulting in treatment and injury, whereas in the past he was straight back to his feet. I don't believe he is milking penalties, as Jones has suggested, rather that his durability has diminished markedly over the past 3 seasons due to the impact he has suffered over his career. I hope for his own sake he gets the summer off.

From an England fan, im very much split over whether Mike brown or Hartley will travel. Im not sure I could justify Hartley when even Englands understudy is considerably BETTER.

Brown possibly has a stronger case as a good aggressive physical FB but this maybe this may be both their international swansongs if they do get selected. AS I think Eddie will not pick them for the AI's...

rodders wrote:The reason the targeting of Sexton is drawing so much attention is because of the length of time it is taking him to recover from each hit he takes.

He's always been regularly involved in big collisions but the issue now is almost each one is resulting in treatment and injury, whereas in the past he was straight back to his feet. I don't believe he is milking penalties, as Jones has suggested, rather that his durability has diminished markedly over the past 3 seasons due to the impact he has suffered over his career. I hope for his own sake he gets the summer off.

It was slightly different in the Wales game where he was actively placing himslef in harms way.

Also with only just having come back from injury its no shock that sides attempts to hit him out of the game have come to more attention.

As much as Im sick of him ruining Englands chances to annoy the Welsh by winning slams I too hope he can be managed well and kept alive. He wont get the summer off though unless theres surgery that absolutely has to happen, I doubt he would want to miss the Lions tour from a personal perspective. At least with Irelands contarct model he will be rested well from club games at the start of next season.

If that is the case I would actually prefer if the token Scots did a Toonie and told Gatland to go and make love with himself.

Wales made just two line breaks against France (France made nine). The line breaks came from Ross Moriarty and Rhys Webb, meaning that the outside backs didn’t a create a single break in nearly 100 minutes. This is not a problem exclusive to the France game. Wales averaged 7.6 line breaks a game for the tournament as a whole – behind France with 11.4, Ireland with 9 and England with 8.4.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

If that is the case I would actually prefer if the token Scots did a Toonie and told Gatland to go and make love with himself.

Wales made just two line breaks against France (France made nine). The line breaks came from Ross Moriarty and Rhys Webb, meaning that the outside backs didn’t a create a single break in nearly 100 minutes. This is not a problem exclusive to the France game. Wales averaged 7.6 line breaks a game for the tournament as a whole – behind France with 11.4, Ireland with 9 and England with 8.4.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

I think you're going to have to get used to the idea, Radge. I'm not saying it's right, but the England game has given Gats the perfect excuse. You can see the rationale..."It was a big away game under pressure, and the Scottish boys went AWOL" etc etc. It seems obvious to me that he doesn't rate our players, and the England game has completely overshadowed our excellent wins against Ireland and Wales. I'd be very surprised if we get more than three on the tour.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Gatland just fills the lions with his sycophants it will be another NZ tour where the coaches faves instead of the best player toured.

I don't disagree with you. But realistically, our only nailed on tourist is Hogg.

So all the great work Johnny Gray and Richie Gray did against Wales and Ireland counts for nothing? I know lock is an extremely competitive position but they have been very good.

Tim Visser has the 2nd highest effective carries stat in the 6N with 53% of his carries getting across the gain line. He's scored tries well, tightened up his defence and has been great on the high balls. In a tournament where the wingers haven't been great I'd say a case could be made for the whole Scottish back 3 because Seymour has been very good too.

Huw Jones is another. In a tournament where none of the centres have been consistent Jones, Ringrose and JJ have all had positive impacts on games. All JD has done all tournament was make Jiffy sigh like he made a mess of his trousers whilst gifting England victory in Cardiff.

If more Welsh tour than Scots I won't watch the tour TBH and if he uses the England game to write us off cart Blanche citing "It was a big away game under pressure", I'd like him to tell us how his lads got on in France!

AWJ, Ken Owens, Sam Warburton, Rhys Webb, George North and Liam Williams are who I'd take. The rest of the welsh team have been insipid and devoid of any attacking flair whatsoever. Scotland were down in these dolldrums for 10 years and were rightly punished for it at Lions time. It's now Wales' turn to spend this tour in purgatory because frankly, based on their performances it's what they deserve.

So all the great work Johnny Gray and Richie Gray did against Wales and Ireland counts for nothing? .

What about England and France?

This is a 3 match series against the world champions, no hiding place for players who can only perform well for a couple of games every now and then.

Better leave JJ at home then annonymous in all the games except the Scotland game, and Farrell, he was rubbish against Italy kicking from the tee like his boots were made of chewing gum and even worse with the ball in hand against Ireland. (By the way I'm not suggesting we leave them at home, because they are great players, I'm just using it to pick holes in your argument).

The only 4 players who have played brilliantly across all their tests has been Hogg, Launchberry, Webb and Furlong. Everyone else has had peaks and troughs. That 4 (one from each lions nation I might add) have been the only ones to be consistently excellent throughout.

Last edited by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Better leave JJ at home then annonymous in all the games except the Scotland game, and Farrell, he was rubbish against Italy kicking from the tee like his boots were made of chewing gum and even worse with the ball in hand against Ireland.

The only 4 players who have played brilliantly across all their tests has been Hogg, Launchberry, Webb and Furlong. Everyone else has had peaks and troughs. That 4 (one from each lions nation I might add) have been the only ones to be consistently excellent throughout.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Better leave JJ at home then annonymous in all the games except the Scotland game, and Farrell, he was rubbish against Italy kicking from the tee like his boots were made of chewing gum and even worse with the ball in hand against Ireland.

The only 4 players who have played brilliantly across all their tests has been Hogg, Launchberry, Webb and Furlong. Everyone else has had peaks and troughs. That 4 (one from each lions nation I might add) have been the only ones to be consistently excellent throughout.

When was Lawes bad?

He wasn't bad, but he got stripped of the ball by Stuart Hogg in contact. A lock should never be overpowered in contact by a small fullback. He wasn't bad, he just wasn't as consistent as Launchberry, I'd take Lawes on the Lions tour too.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

Easy, Gatland is in charge.

And they didn't ship 60+ points. Apparently... JD2 has good stats.

The WOL selection was decent, considering it's the WOL... Having said that I wouldn't take any Welsh centre and would make a few changes to the WOL selection and naturally it includes more Scotland players.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Better leave JJ at home then annonymous in all the games except the Scotland game, and Farrell, he was rubbish against Italy kicking from the tee like his boots were made of chewing gum and even worse with the ball in hand against Ireland.

The only 4 players who have played brilliantly across all their tests has been Hogg, Launchberry, Webb and Furlong. Everyone else has had peaks and troughs. That 4 (one from each lions nation I might add) have been the only ones to be consistently excellent throughout.

When was Lawes bad?

He wasn't bad, but he got stripped of the ball by Stuart Hogg in contact. A lock should never be overpowered in contact by a small fullback. He wasn't bad, he just wasn't as consistent as Launchberry, I'd take Lawes on the Lions tour too.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

Easy, Gatland is in charge.

And they didn't ship 60+ points. Apparently... JD2 has good stats.

The WOL selection was decent, considering it's the WOL... Having said that I wouldn't take any Welsh centre and would make a few changes to the WOL selection and naturally it includes more Scotland players.

Our backline was in tatters in the 20th minute. I'm not sure why this doesn't compute with some people on here. Losing Hogg (our best player by some distance) Followed by Bennett who is again another fantastic player and ending up with Ali Price on the Wing and then Duncan "Meatball" Weir at full back and people are wondering why we shipped 60 points?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Gatland just fills the lions with his sycophants it will be another NZ tour where the coaches faves instead of the best player toured.

I don't disagree with you. But realistically, our only nailed on tourist is Hogg.

So all the great work Johnny Gray and Richie Gray did against Wales and Ireland counts for nothing? I know lock is an extremely competitive position but they have been very good.

Tim Visser has the 2nd highest effective carries stat in the 6N with 53% of his carries getting across the gain line. He's scored tries well, tightened up his defence and has been great on the high balls. In a tournament where the wingers haven't been great I'd say a case could be made for the whole Scottish back 3 because Seymour has been very good too.

Huw Jones is another. In a tournament where none of the centres have been consistent Jones, Ringrose and JJ have all had positive impacts on games. All JD has done all tournament was make Jiffy sigh like he made a mess of his trousers whilst gifting England victory in Cardiff.

If more Welsh tour than Scots I won't watch the tour TBH and if he uses the England game to write us off cart Blanche citing "It was a big away game under pressure", I'd like him to tell us how his lads got on in France!

AWJ, Ken Owens, Sam Warburton, Rhys Webb, George North and Liam Williams are who I'd take. The rest of the welsh team have been insipid and devoid of any attacking flair whatsoever. Scotland were down in these dolldrums for 10 years and were rightly punished for it at Lions time. It's now Wales' turn to spend this tour in purgatory because frankly, based on their performances it's what they deserve.

I don't disagree with your analysis Radge, but it would appear we have a long way to go to gain the credibility our Autumn and 6N performances deserve. The 5live podcast only named two Scots in the squad, and the BBC 6N review show hardly mentioned any Scots in their Lions discussion. History counts for a lot, and we have not yet turned the dial in terms of how people view our team, the England result only reinforces this.

There are also two additional factors. A) There are a lot of very talented players out there, this must be the most competitive Lions selection in years. J.Gray has not been that effective in his last two games, could I really grumble if Launchbury/Lawes/Henderson were chosen above him, not really. Similarly, if Ringrose was chosen above H.Jones....the way he marshaled JJ was infinitely more impressive than either Dunbar or Jones. B) We don't have anybody fighting our players corner, if we had Toonie or O'Halloran in there, I would feel more confident, but for perfectly justified reasons, we don't.

I may of course be totally off-base, but personally I hope Seymour, Hogg and J.Gray make it. I would be delighted with more.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Better leave JJ at home then annonymous in all the games except the Scotland game, and Farrell, he was rubbish against Italy kicking from the tee like his boots were made of chewing gum and even worse with the ball in hand against Ireland.

The only 4 players who have played brilliantly across all their tests has been Hogg, Launchberry, Webb and Furlong. Everyone else has had peaks and troughs. That 4 (one from each lions nation I might add) have been the only ones to be consistently excellent throughout.

When was Lawes bad?

He wasn't bad, but he got stripped of the ball by Stuart Hogg in contact. A lock should never be overpowered in contact by a small fullback. He wasn't bad, he just wasn't as consistent as Launchberry, I'd take Lawes on the Lions tour too.

But it does happen...and Hogg is a strong lad.

Lawes isn't the first and wont be the last...

Hogg is deceptively strong, granted but it just looked like a physical mismatch because Lawes is an utter brute. Like I said he had a very strong tournament, but Laucnhberry was incredible. I never understood the hype until this tournament. A lot of the pundits were going mental about Itoje but for me Launchberry was the lock of the tournament. He was utterly outstanding.

If that is the case I would actually prefer if the token Scots did a Toonie and told Gatland to go and make love with himself.

Wales made just two line breaks against France (France made nine). The line breaks came from Ross Moriarty and Rhys Webb, meaning that the outside backs didn’t a create a single break in nearly 100 minutes. This is not a problem exclusive to the France game. Wales averaged 7.6 line breaks a game for the tournament as a whole – behind France with 11.4, Ireland with 9 and England with 8.4.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

I think you're going to have to get used to the idea, Radge. I'm not saying it's right, but the England game has given Gats the perfect excuse. You can see the rationale..."It was a big away game under pressure, and the Scottish boys went AWOL" etc etc. It seems obvious to me that he doesn't rate our players, and the England game has completely overshadowed our excellent wins against Ireland and Wales. I'd be very surprised if we get more than three on the tour.

the 6 nations team of most weeks had 3-4 scots in it (apart from the eng game)

Now the lions squads post 6n in all the major news organisations have a total of 2-3 scots in it and either 1 (Hogg) or 0 Scots starters. Yet filled with avg 9 welsh players .

Now for me if theres 3 Scots in the squad i would highly recommend the SRU pull out of all future lions tours and let the players decide if they want to participate in this one.

This is going to be disgraceful bias and you can bet with your house its about to happen .

If that is the case I would actually prefer if the token Scots did a Toonie and told Gatland to go and make love with himself.

Wales made just two line breaks against France (France made nine). The line breaks came from Ross Moriarty and Rhys Webb, meaning that the outside backs didn’t a create a single break in nearly 100 minutes. This is not a problem exclusive to the France game. Wales averaged 7.6 line breaks a game for the tournament as a whole – behind France with 11.4, Ireland with 9 and England with 8.4.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

I think you're going to have to get used to the idea, Radge. I'm not saying it's right, but the England game has given Gats the perfect excuse. You can see the rationale..."It was a big away game under pressure, and the Scottish boys went AWOL" etc etc. It seems obvious to me that he doesn't rate our players, and the England game has completely overshadowed our excellent wins against Ireland and Wales. I'd be very surprised if we get more than three on the tour.

the 6 nations team of most weeks had 3-4 scots in it (apart from the eng game)

Now the lions squads post 6n in all the major news organisations have a total of 2-3 scots in it and either 1 (Hogg) or 0 Scots starters. Yet filled with avg 9 welsh players .

Now for me if theres 3 Scots in the squad i would highly recommend the SRU pull out of all future lions tours and let the players decide if they want to participate in this one.

This is going to be disgraceful bias and you can bet with your house its about to happen .

This is why the coach should be utterly neutral. It should not be a coach currently involved with one of the national teams for this very reason. You are right though alive, this will most likely be very Wales heavy and it will reek of bias.

Problem for Scotland is that their best games (against Wales and Ireland) happened when neither Ireland nor Wales were playing anything remotely close to mimicking the ABs.

The whole idea is that players were being looked at in relation to how they'd get on in New Zealand against super rugby sides and three tests against the Big Boys themselves.

The Welsh saved their best game for the Irish. The Irish saved their best game for the English and the English saved their best game for the Scottish.

I couldn't care less how many Scots or indeed Irish show up for the Lions gig (I'll be more interested in Marmion and Ireland on tour) Good luck to however many Scots do get to go.... but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.

Yes, every side is allowed a down day, a bad day, a terrible day though - so it's up to Gats and his coaches to do his picking. I actually think Scotland might suffer more for the 'slight' shown to Gats in Townsend rejecting a coaching slot. Warren doesn't like being snubbed and his language after the 'snub' suggests he'll remember it when picking time comes.

SecretFly wrote:but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

The unfortunate thing for the Scotland players is the 61 points they conceded against England and how ineffectual they looked in general during that game, a capitulation like that will be considered more than any victory. The injuries didn't help but lets not act as if we hadn't carved the midfield apart by then and continued to do so thereafter.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The unfortunate thing for the Scotland players is the 61 points they conceded against England and how ineffectual they looked in general during that game, a capitulation like that will be considered more than any victory. The injuries didn't help but lets not act as if we hadn't carved the midfield apart by then and continued to do so thereafter.

Despite being the first team to score 3 tries at Twickenham against England since Australia in the RWC. I work in a scientific job, and when looking at trends we always discount the anomaly.

If one piece of steel fails a tensile test we won't throw the whole batch out because one part failed, we survey 10 or 20 samples and take out the best performing parts and the worst performing parts to get a true reflection on how the material performed.

You can't and shouldn't arbitrarily write off an whole team because of one bad performance. Especially when other teams under consideration had 2 or 3 bad performances.

I don't think you can read too much into scoring three tries in that game, we were only concerned with putting as many points on the board as possible plus Fiji and Wales have done the same since the world cup.

You might want to dismiss it as a one off but it went beyond being bad it was an atrocious performance injuries or not, nobody stepped up at all.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't think you can read too much into scoring three tries in that game, we were only concerned with putting as many points on the board as possible plus Fiji and Wales have done the same since the world cup.

You might want to dismiss it as a one off but it went beyond being bad it was an atrocious performance injuries or not, nobody stepped up at all.

Huw Jones stepped up a few times (to allow JJ a safe passage through).

alive555 wrote:"Scotland is that their best games (against Wales and Ireland) happened when neither Ireland nor Wales were playing anything remotely close to mimicking the ABs."

so youre saying they played badly ?

if so then how will that work out against not Scotland but the All Blacks ?

As i said if wales and ireland both get 3 times more players than Scotland then it will stink.

No, I said I couldn't care less how many players Ireland has or whether Lions sinks or swims. But for the people who do, and there are plenty, few pundits/journalists will say either Wales or Ireland played their best when meeting Scotland. Now everything is relative when opinion comes into it but that's the general opinion. Ireland and wales had 'best' games, and neither of them were against Scotland.So maybe the question back at you should be just which game was Scotland's best game of the Championship? Maybe that might condense any argument that involves just what might be needed to beat the ABs three times in New Zealand.

Last edited by SecretFly on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

SecretFly wrote:but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger. What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me. But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck. I have no vested interest in you getting less. But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so. Just an opinion.