I had the time and joy to play terror doctrine which happens perhaps once a year.

As i wanted to test the Sturmtiger, i went straight the arty branch.

But what i noticed about the branch:It is a deadly branch. Spare ammo and you can play the doc just like an arty doc. I started with firestorm and neblers, then getting the sturmtiger (i skipped the walking stuka as i didnt feel any need).

The firestorm is deadlier as i thought. Go straight for it and its like the inf doc 105 off map. When the defensive lines are still thin, this can be a game changer. It kills emplacments actually instant. Also tanks (full HP cromwell dies when it stays too long in it).

But the Sturmtiger.... wtf.

1. Its range is huge. Its superior to 105 sherman. It can fire as far as the Wespe. It has 200 range. Static howitzers have 225. Basically, this unit made static howitzers ultimately usless except the are used just for victor target placed at the end of the map.

2. Its armor. Two achilles that rushed through our lines just kept bouncing untill they died to hetzers and schrecks. That thing has KT armor. Imagine a SPG like priest or wespe that has KT armor....

3. The blast. This unit has a blast like no other. Even tanks that stayed outside the actual explosion just died. The weird thing: They first survived the intial impact and a half second later they blew up or went out of controle. The blast area is 18,5 which is the greatest ive seen so far. US P-47 has a blast area of 12. And far less damage within it.

4. The damage. It has got the damage values of an V1 missile which actually carried over 800 KG of explosvies. This one carries 125 kg, which is just as much as an P-47 bomb has.However, the damage is far superior to it.

Within a range of 12, the damage is still as high as 1500. Against most allied tanks (except SP and churchill ace) this is doubled to 3000. Even at the maximum distance of the explosion center, the damage against allied tanks is as high as 1050. Even there it blasts a Pershing into pieces.

As comparision: The damage of a single US 125 kg bomb against a tiger at the outer circle of the explosion which is 12 (compared to 18 of stumtiger) is 420. Its not even the half of that.

Lets assume there is a tank 10 range away from impact. The 125 kg bomb deals 630 damage. The Sturmtigers 125 kg HE up to 1800 damage. Thats almost three times as much.

In that two games, i did kill 15 and 18 tanks with a single sturmtiger. Including at least 2 Pershings, two calli and a dozens of churchills and normal shermans. And often they were not even within the visual explosion, nor in the shown circle of impact. I killed in average three per shot. I mean, which other artillery kills 3 tanks in a barrage? I cant think of any and esspecialy not from this range.

5. It insta kills CW trucks. I mean.... A single shot... You can fire and run. And it does not even needs to get as close as a calli sherman has to in order to release its death.

6. Its only "drawback" is the 6 min recharge time of the ability. But cost and efficiency is unmatched. I mean 150 ammo to pay to smash an entire army? Which perhaps includes a pershing? Or the slow CW RE tanks like churchills and their escorting aa tanks and firefly?

No need to risk your unit.... i mean the enemie cant even see it coming, even with recons the shot comes out of the sudden.

That brings me to the never ending questions: Why axis need such super range and damage for their arty? I mean this thing is in a doc not even supposed to be an arty doc in first place. Its like an atomic bomb.

I mean, the slow churchills need to get as close as 120 range for their 95 mm arty. The US 105 sherman as close as 180 range. But Walking stuka, the shortest ranged axis arty, has a range of 175. All other shit fires from 180-200 and more. The Hummel reaches as far as 275 range with special shots and reloads in 3 seconds (vet and stat mode active).Axis arty has range, is often cheap, sometimes no cp´s required, spread over many docs, deals massive damage and releases the shots in a quick succession which makes any counter rather hard. But churchills, calli and stuff... they all are always in a huge danger whenever they start shooting due to low range, long barrages and sluggishness.

Coming back to the sturmiger:

1. Reduce the range to max 150. I mean you can escape quick. You are driving away already before the shot hits the target.2. Give it a blast value and damage area comparable to a US Fighter Bomber bomb. I mean even the German Ju-87 stuka 500 or 1000 KG bomb is far from such an effect. And they carry the multiple ammount of explosives. Within a range of 6 you could kill a tank outright. Above that still damaging it. Currently it kills any tank in any blast range which is 18.3. Reduce reload time to like 4 mins.4. Dont make it killing a placed truck instantly.

- Originally ST was reward unit for stupid V1. We set the damage the same way as V1 because otherwise nobody would ever use ST reward - V1 was possible to use anywhere without the need to move any "launch platform" into range, so it was faster and easier to use. If ST was weaker (in damage/AoE) + had to be moved to range + weak armor so that any crappy unit could kill it + if it is detracked, you cannot rotate it and thus cannot fire where you want, nobody would use it.

- Don't use "in reality" as main arguments; this is a game

- Will stay as it is (maybe price increase for shots, but only maybe). Compared to V1 which Terror used to have, ST is still a nerf.

Sturmtiger is an exchange for V1. It is a change to give the mod a more realist feeling.

I didn't remember To heard any recurrent protestations about V1, except to say it was a fantasist remnant from V1.

V1 VS sturmtiger.

Sturmtiger is really a V1 nerf.

+ it have nothing.

-Needed a structure to be buildneed ressource to buildpick up on players ressource due to upkeepCan be destroyHave less range

Ask for more nerf is imo a bit abused.

Really it is all in your head. V1 attack have been materialised in a visible sturmtiger you want to kill it and find it is difficult ; but V1 was unstoppable, it wasn't possible to counter it and you had not means to destroy ability button on you opponent screen.

Complain would have been admissible if V1 had been a balance debatable subject in previous version. Afaik it was not.

it is imo common sense. A kind of obvious/universal things who apply equally to PVE or PVP.

To be fair, the ST actually has some positives compared to former V1 - V1 strike cost 200 ammo (ST shot is 150), and V1 had longer cooldown than the shot on ST. However I still think the negatives outweight the positives and so the original point still stands - ST is nerf for Terror doctrine compared to V1 and nerfing it further is not needed.

MarKr wrote:To be fair, the ST actually has some positives compared to former V1 - V1 strike cost 200 ammo (ST shot is 150), and V1 had longer cooldown than the shot on ST. However I still think the negatives outweight the positives and so the original point still stands - ST is nerf for Terror doctrine compared to V1 and nerfing it further is not needed.

Thing is, that your opponents will run away in all four directions when they hear a rocket coming, but when ST coming, you have simply no warning and a rocket coming in second, except a recon deeply behind enemy lines. Element of surprise makes this a serious advantage in front of V1

Exactly. The V1 Took a while to hammer down. You had plenty of time to move units in all directions. It couldnt really stop an tank attack.

The Sturmtiger is like an 210 nebler, Walking stuka..... just another axis arty that can be thrown into enemie advances.

I mean in the majority of my played games it was just a always. Whenever you launched an assault, arty hammered down.... Most famously Hotchkiss (bc it comes so early), 210 nebler, normal neblers etc.

There is a small defense, everything else is arty that is being fired right into your face. Half your units are either dead or crippled to zero effectivness before they actually reach their targets.

Sturmtiger is just another Grille. Grille 2.0 remastered edition. So Terror doc has got their personal counter arty tool. I mean you need view just once in a time. Not that hard to achieve, esspecially when your mate is luft doc.

Also the Priest is currently the only arty unit that can actually fire from a quite safe position so far. All other arty for allied became quite useless in late stage games. Whenever you use them, you get hammered.... Grille, 210, stukas and now this thing.

Why do i have to put my arty so fucking close as allied and esspecially allied.... 120 range.... 150 range... sluggish as shit. But nonstop missile rain from accross the map.

Regarding the ST..... It has KT armor.... so any US AT weapon will bounce anyway most of the time. Its just another unit that needs literally to be killed by long tom or stuff that is "preserved" for KT and the like.

When a calli needs to get as close as 150 range, for quite the same MP cost, just with paper armor, why does the ST needs this 200 range again.... why, why why? Why always so much range that you can shoot right from in front of your base.

Sturmtiger its nothing compared to new rifles.Volks without MG feels like engineers vs rifles, why this okay? Yeah i know they are litle better at long range, but they are shooting, and shooting and no one die, +- like rifles.Rifles at close and midle ranges easily kill any infantry, this mean, you can't rush them, even with MP-44, two mp 44 for grens don't work at all, four in terror doc bad, best idea now always buy MG or G43.And all this against the cheapest?! infantry in the game without buying any weapon.

This is not about rifles and volks.+ volks are cheaper than rifles (10mp more to build but 3 Mp less to reinforce and cheap upkeep). Volks still doing their job.

Also which G43 are you talking about?

And the grens did still well so far. I didnt spend ammo for anything but firestorm and sturmtiger. Those two things made up more than half for my kills (and nebels). As i said, i played terror first as arty doctrine, then in late game Arty/inf. i didnt buy any weapon so i could use arty quite often.

I havent unlocked a single tank. My BK player teammate did provide the armor support. SE player provided anti tank and, mines and infantry. Later on additional arty.

It worked out pretty well.

And the pure problem i have with ST is the fact that it kills tanks that are not even caught by the visible explosion and and range paired with this accuracy. I wouldnt mind about recharge time reduction when these two silly attributes of the weapon would be reworked.

You have replay and score screenshot? Playing terror without panther g, sounds stupid, its like playing RA without priest, yes you can, sometimes and without a doctrine it's ok (vs noobs)G-43 its Gewerh 43, good at long ranges.

I dont think the g43 ehnances the long range capabilities. I would just treat it as a Gren KAR. And holy shit the garands were buffed, 1,5-0,5 cooldown? now they are even better than grease guns :O And honestly, just remove the thompsons. They are far from needed anymore. (Dont do it though)

But regarding the Sturmtiger. Yes on paper it super strong and all that shit with a bug that makes it free to fire rapid fire everywhere. It's not that great of a unit. I found it alot more effiecnt to go close range with a walking stuka all the time. But I think we should design it with a purpose. As it is now, not even a jeep going full speed can avoid the rocket. And not even a churchill/pershing can tank a single hit. Not even a hq building can survive a sinlge shot. Not even artillery can outrange it. But it costs alot of valubale cp's, resources (not on the higest end though) and time.

So I would say since Terror tank line can kill all tanks, super heavy tanks, jeeps and infantry. And walking stuka can kill all emplacements, infantry and slow moving targets. the only real advantage you get from the sturmtiger is anti artillery firepower. And even then it's subpar for that.

I would say it doesn't really break the balance. It just kills the enemy in a more certain extent in exchange for resources and time.

Tor wrote:Volks without MG feels like engineers vs rifles, why this okay? Yeah i know they are litle better at long range, but they are shooting, and shooting and no one die, +- like rifles.Rifles at close and midle ranges easily kill any infantry, this mean, you can't rush them, even with MP-44, two mp 44 for grens don't work at all, four in terror doc bad, best idea now always buy MG or G43.And all this against the cheapest?! infantry in the game without buying any weapon.

This is sort of hard to balance right, so there might be further tweaks coming. It is hard to balance because you need to find some point around which you balance it. For now we chose to go with "unupgraded Volks" - we had several tests with Pblitz. "Test" means it was in testing conditions, not regular PvP - in order to see raw performance without interference of other factors. In these tests we placed a squad of Riflemen (Vet0) behind sandbag wall and squad of Volks (Vet0) also behind sandbag wall. When they were 1v1 Volks usually managed to win the skirmish. Once there were 2Riflemen vs 1Volks Riflemen started to get upper hand. This is what we aimed for - to reduce the "fight with numbers" tactics from "outnumber opponent 3(or more) to 1, to have chance to win" to "outnumber opponent 2 to 1, to have chance to win".However there are more factors in this (again). We need to take into account that Def doc can get the "Fight and Cover" unlock which boosts survivability of all infantry when they are in cover - with this unlock Volks do way better vs Riflemen because they are harder to hit and also take less damage as long as they are in cover. In Terror doctrine you have the "Zeal" unlock which gives bonuses to infantry everytime they lose a soldier - this means that during a firefight there are losses on both sides, but Volks remain stronger with the losses than Rifles.

Also Garands of Riflemen have higher rate of fire but are are very inaccurate + they take bigger nerfs when they shoot at infantry in cover (compared to Kar98s) and also get smaller accuracy buff when opponent is not in cover at all. This means that if you lose cover with your Volks, moving to another cover is less dangerous than when you lose cover with Rifles and try to move to another cover (Kar98s get bigger bonus). So I would not recommend to try to rush Riflemen but rather fight from distance - you have upper hand here and if THEY try to rush you, you are wery likely to kill them fast.

Then there are Grenadiers - they have better accuracy with their basic rifles and also better range with grenades. They are also affected by the mentioned Def and Terror unlocks and get bigger bonuses from these and also have more HP than Rifles. So they can deal with Rifles quite easily (again - keep distance). On top of that, if you upgrade LMG on any of these Axis squads you immediately get the upper hand - and I can remember when people said here that the LMG is probably the most often used upgrade on both Volks and Grens.

Price of Riflemen was increased and without the upkeep-reducing upgrades, the US units have the highest basic upkeep of all factions so if you build more of them, you are draining your resources.

Redgaarden wrote:But regarding the Sturmtiger. Yes on paper it super strong and all that shit with a bug that makes it free to fire rapid fire everywhere.

Wait, what? Since you know about such bug and are in the beta tester team, have you ever considered, I don't know...maybe, report it? If you have details on how to reproduce the bug, please send me a PM with it.

I think the argument of "SturmTiger has element of surprise due to not making a very loud noise when it shoots" is still not a very strong argument. There are such destructive arty tools that also make not much noise.. example, Long Tom! Not to mention the Airborne bombing run airstrike with 2 bombs.. is in fact still deadlier than the SturmTiger, they are more like "flying" SturmTiger, so I don't see a problem here at all.

Also, yes... I think US Riflemen and Rangers are a bit too deadly now.. though I am not sure if it's really balance breaking or not.

Its the first time ever that i am satisfied with riflemen.And that numbers of semi rifles finally work as such. Its a complete new sytle and gameplay experience. And i love it...

Sure, you stick a bit more in cover and you cant overrun semi rifles that easily anymore. But its just great.

The Volks still doing fine. Building up sandbags, stay there... use the cheap reinforce cost..

On top, in urban scenarios, the faust is such a great tool. Sometimes i just give them fausts.

They are to some extend more versatile than rifles afterall.

So far, huge thumbs up for this work.

Back to ST

Tor wrote:Playing terror without panther g, sounds stupid, its like playing RA without priest, yes you can, sometimes and without a doctrine it's ok (vs noobs)G-43 its Gewerh 43, good at long ranges.

Well... this meta playing.

I played BK doc without anything bigger than Tank IV´s. Just make sure one of your buddies either get TD´s such as IV/70 or PanthersI played arty doc without Priest. Just make sure you combine it with mates. Spotter/officer off map, inf doc off map and close quarter combat squad, shermans early on.

Just combine...

I played SE without getting wespe or hummel.... Just sector arty, mines, sabotage, flame nades.... i fought against stuff like RAF players and whatever. Worked fine with flame nades and sabotage squads

I played Armor doc without pershings (usually i dont get them)I played AB with mate combo using just handfull of AB´s. Airstrikes, rifles, shermans and M10 and few spotters dropped here and there. Mate got inf and so on...

I played Luft doc using more or less only 88 and air raids.... then air raids and panthers while mates got grens

Have you ever tried to play less that formula doctrine styles..... always 101st, always priest, always wespe, always panther G, always this and that.....There are tons of things you can play differently and new combos, esspecially with WH docs.

Tiger1996 wrote:I think the argument of "SturmTiger has element of surprise due to not making a very loud noise when it shoots" is still not a very strong argument. There are such destructive arty tools that also make not much noise.. example, Long Tom! Not to mention the Airborne bombing run airstrike with 2 bombs.. is in fact still deadlier than the SturmTiger, they are more like "flying" SturmTiger, so I don't see a problem here at all.

Also, yes... I think US Riflemen and Rangers are a bit too deadly now.. though I am not sure if it's really balance breaking or not.

Plane you should always see, Long Tom warnes you with sound and units crying, to prevent mini-V1 you just need a recon deeply in enemy territory, that is just not right. Oh yeah, as stated above it has KT armor.

I still think that the armor is way too much for this unit, it should have tiger or panther armor as much. Since once you use the shoot you can still use it as a frontline unit working as a decoy since it can pretty much hold any other tank with his front armor and his rear armor its kinda too high too.

Its King tiger armor. And its actually not that wrong. That beast had massive armor.

This is not my main concern. Its just that there is literally no risk in using it since you can fire it from a range like howitzers have it. And that it kills even pershings far beyond the actual blast.

If it would have to get closer to the front like 100-120 range so that it would be less Grille 2.0 for terror doc. And using it to kill a certain defensive part and not blasting away entire tank armies like dropping a nuke on them.

Ya, the frontal armor is fine as it is currently indeed.. but perhaps the rear armor is a little bit over-performing actually.

in my humble opinion though, as I said before, I think the range is fine.. keeping in mind you can't fire with it anywhere unless you have view...

The "nuke" damage is also absolutely fine, the Airborne bombing run airstrike is also dropping a "nuke" but the difference is that it's also from the sky!So, if the Airborne bombing run airstrike damage is all fine.. then the SturmTiger damage is just fine as well, both are OK to me.

Tiger1996 wrote:The "nuke" damage is also absolutely fine, the Airborne bombing run airstrike is also dropping a "nuke" but the difference is that it's also from the sky!So, if the Airborne bombing run airstrike damage is all fine.. then the SturmTiger damage is just fine as well, both are OK to me.

by far not. Those do not kill everything far outside the explosion. They are simply two bombs that are coming far less surprising.

When you start moving early enough when you see the plane coming, you have good chances to get away or taking some damage when on the edge of the explosion.

When you see this rocket coming, you know its the end for your tanks and vehicles. Even the fastest vehicle wont get out of the blast area fast enough bc its so massive.

Ive never seen a p -47 killing more than two vehicles in a row. And never more than one tank. Even a drop on relatively closely parked artillery vehicles didnt kill all of them.

The Sturmtiger killed three tanks (Pershing, sherman, calli) that were not even close to each other. Between the pershing and calli was a quite large gap. The shell just had to land right between them to blow them up. You would never kill tanks by dropping bombs between two that would be that far away from each other. At best you would damage both.

When RE comes in with a command tank and a churchill you would just aim between them. The command aura of the command tank is 30. The Sturmtiger shot covers a distance of 37 range (explosion diameter). So when there comes an RE player that has lets say an churchill, one firefly and the command tank and put them just close enough so that all receive the command tanks bonsuses, the sturmtiger would have to hit just somewhere between them in order to kill all three tanks instantly.

That means, when you play CW using armor in conjunction with a command tank (which is there to stick with others) the sturmiger would kill all tanks instantly just bc the CW "is foolish enough" to use his tanks together with his command tank.

Can you see the blunt stupidity?

I mean in many cases the RE assault consists of tanks that are working closerly together. One to kill inf, another tanks and so on. And this whole gameplay is destroyed just bc of that. When the RE guy loses his entire assault force (3 tanks or more) a comeback is pretty hard. From that moment on you can start swarming him with repeated attacks of grens and later tanks. Perhaps a click to kill firestorm on a remaining emplacments and its over.

I mean killing a tank with a hit is more than justified. Damaging several perhaps, too. But not killing them all right away without even hitting any of them directly.

A P-47 bomb that would drop right between them ( a single one would cover a diameter of 24 range) would perhaps deal no damage at all. When both hit quite well you would maybe kill a tank or damage both but the chances to kill simply all tanks within command tanks aura wouldnt be that high.

And even if, the chances to react (or shoot down the plane) and thus evade and prevent the coming destruction, would be much higher.

And just bc it cant shoot into the Fog of war isnt a reason to have it like this. I mean whenever you go into combat, you see your enemies. Its not that they have such range advantages to kill all your units before you can see them. This is really not an issue.

The command aura for the US vehicle is 40 iirc.

3. The blast. This unit has a blast like no other. Even tanks that stayed outside the actual explosion just died. The weird thing: They first survived the intial impact and a half second later they blew up or went out of controle. The blast area is 18,5 which is the greatest ive seen so far. US P-47 has a blast area of 12. And far less damage within it.

4.....Within a range of 12, the damage is still as high as 1500. Against most allied tanks (except SP and churchill ace) this is doubled to 3000. Even at the maximum distance of the explosion center, the damage against allied tanks is as high as 1050. Even there it blasts a Pershing into pieces.

As comparision: The damage of a single US 125 kg bomb against a tiger at the outer circle of the explosion -which is 12 (compared to 18,5 of stumtiger)- is 420. Its not even the half of that.

Lets assume there is a tank 10 range away from impact. The 125 kg bomb deals 630 damage. The Sturmtigers 125 kg HE up to 1800 damage. Thats almost three times as much.

Last edited by Warhawks97 on 05 Jan 2018, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

Well, after all it's just a 125kg bomb.. compared to 380mm rocket! ^ ^

Nonetheless, game-play wise... You still can't kill the most powerful Allied tank (Super Pershing) when it's full health with just 1 shot using the SturmTiger, as the SP would always survive with about 10% HP or so. That's fine though since it's available only once... Yet, on the other hand just two 125kg bombs by an airstrike are enough to kill even a full HP JagdTiger! Or even the King Tiger which is the most expensive unit in the game... So, I believe it's still balanced and justified.

If anything, then I think just the rear armor of the SturmTiger has to be reduced and maybe MP cost increase.. perhaps from 700MP to 1000MP but that's really all about it.

Tiger1996 wrote:If anything, then I think just the rear armor of the SturmTiger has to be reduced and maybe MP cost increase.. perhaps from 700MP to 1000MP but that's really all about it.

True , i still also think that every rear armor of heavy tanks and medium tanks should be revised, even smaller caliber cannons and 'zookas should have have way more chance to pen rear armor of tanks. Going back to ST perhaps a smaller increase on mp cost to 800 and rear armor revised could be fine.

Tiger1996 wrote:Well, after all it's just a 125kg bomb.. compared to 380mm rocket! ^ ^

Nonetheless, game-play wise... You still can't kill the most powerful Allied tank (Super Pershing) when it's full health with just 1 shot using the SturmTiger, as the SP would always survive with about 10% HP or so. That's fine though since it's available only once... Yet, on the other hand just two 125kg bombs by an airstrike are enough to kill even a full HP JagdTiger! Or even the King Tiger which is the most expensive unit in the game... So, I believe it's still balanced and justified.

If anything, then I think just the rear armor of the SturmTiger has to be reduced and maybe MP cost increase.. perhaps from 700MP to 1000MP but that's really all about it.

holly shit. The game for you is really all about tigers and super pershing as the ultimate measurement.

And i can tell you for sure: NO!

Did you even read the damage? Sure, crits and stuff, or bugs like a Pershing ace survives a direct V1 hit without a scratch?

Do you even care about the fact that an entire CW armored force which sticks usually together since their tanks have different roles, gets blasted away just like that? Do you even care a little damn shit for stuff aside Tigers and Super Pershings? And calculating a value of a weapon how it performs in comparison to it or how good it can kill it?

And what has mm to do with kilo? What you think how much HE your lovely 380 mm rocket contains? Exactly: 125 KG... Thats more than a 250 IB (112,27 kg) bomb carries. My main concern is not that it deals damage in the aforesaid area. Its the fact that the damage loss at the edge of this blast area is so insignificant that it does not just damage stuff there but instead still killing it outright.

And yeah... lets simply increase cost like always.... fits perfect in the "axis quality" stuff. This time using some sort of allien explosives much better than stupid human made stuff.

It doesnt change the way a unit works in game. And how its used etc.

I would suggest to add a riflemen that throws rocks which kills any axis unit instantly. Range is 80 and cooldown 2 mins. Lets make it cost perhaps 800 MP? I know its stupid. But who cares. This is BK, right? As long as costs are balanced (in some ways)......