Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.20
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25
Q. Have you read in the police dossier the words, "Michael
Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video
which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting?
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A. This is a different, this a different, you know, what is
it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or
whatever integrated in this secret or police system.
Q. You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that
in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it
was stated in writing that I would not talk about the
Holocaust in any of my talks?
A. Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have
had reasons. I do not know.
Q. Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be,
possible reasons?
A. You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the
other is that you may depart from it.
Q. Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the
German climate, that even though neither of us intended,
neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it
would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we
wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was
not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it
was fixed every time in writing between us?
A. It seems ----
Q. So we could not be tricked.
A. It seems the case.
Q. Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability,
your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the
more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence
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as you have read it?
A. It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it wrong?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are all agreed. It was a
precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and
indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted.
MR IRVING: It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can
I add another question as rider? Have you seen any
reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU
meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke
Holocaust denial?
A. I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving
with respect to the other activities you took at that
period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to
quote, "Hitler and Jews" thing. So this made him
concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving,
so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak
freely in Germany and he lost.
Q. Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it
is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in
my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that,
that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or
Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned
me to speak at?
A. So far as I recall not, no.
Q. And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did
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not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these
meetings?
A. So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other
circumstances very different.
Q. We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph
3.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a
main speaker for the DVU?
A. Yes.
Q. Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was
speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that
I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them?
A. You were a star speaker used by the political party for
political aims.
Q. Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same
paragraph, an agitator?
A. Because of that.
Q. Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning,
"The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against
foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence"?
Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you
just throw these things in there?
A. Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you
did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe
this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the
law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself
is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their
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cause or its cause as an anti-Semitic, right-wing
extremist, and often denialist, as you can see in the
newspapers and as are referred to by the articles thing.
So it is a kind of mutual interaction with often very
cautious tactic lines.
Q. But, Professor Funke, each of those activities or
agitation factors that you list there, propagating hatred
against foreigners, anti-Semitism, inciting violence, each
of those would be an illegal activity if it was true. So
why was the DVU never prosecuted, as you say it was not?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: You asked that before.
MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, but I wanted to underlined the point,
if the DVU is accused in that sentence of conducting these
activities, it seems highly improbable given that they
were never prosecuted.
A. Again, Mr Irving took sides with this extremist party, and
I can go into details of how intense anti-Semitic party
members and the newspapers are. There is no doubt about
that.
Q. But not in the extreme form.
A. The other part of the answer is that that does not mean
that this party is illegal, because of the special
importance parties, as parties, were given by the
constitutional law as a reaction to the period before, and
that includes that the political party has a special - ---
THE INTERPRETER: A right to participate.
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A. --- stated by the constitutional law directly. So it is
very difficult to push aside parties when they not only
claim but by their structure are parties, although they
may not be in the internal structure democratic ones.
This is why at the beginning it was so extended to
describe the specifics of the German political system and
the right-wing extremist cause they have to fight.
MR IRVING: I think it would be easier to deal with
personalities tomorrow, my Lord, because the organizations
are clearly problem.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I have some idea of the timing, how
much cross-examination?
MR IRVING: I have one more day at this rate, less than a day.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: A day of cross-examination of Professor Funke?
MR IRVING: I think so, yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your original estimate was half a day.
MR IRVING: I will abbreviate it then.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not do it because I say that.
MR IRVING: Your Lordship is excellent at brooming me along and
making me scrap hours of work.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you to take whatever
course you think.
MR IRVING: If I know your Lordship is not going to pay
attention to those matters ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have give you a very, very clear
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indication I hope of what I would be paying attention to.
MR IRVING: Had I had that indication last night ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree, but I did not know what you were
going to be asking about. 10.30 tomorrow.
(The witness withdrew; The court adjourned until the following day)
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