Parents in a Potemkin Village: Six Weeks in the Moscow Training Center

We entered the Advanced Training Institute (ATI) homeschool program when I was fifteen, and not much about my life changed. Our family attended functions here and there and added the Wisdom Booklets to our home school curriculum, but the more unique ATI teachings did not have much effect on us.

Before we joined ATI we were already involved with helping Russian immigrants to the U.S, and I was working as a Russian language interpreter when the ATI newsletters started arriving, filled with glowing reports of great ministry happenings. By this time I had been to Russia three times on mission trips with other organizations, and these newsletter stories spoke right to me. This was what I wanted to be doing — using my skills to bless the Russian people and to serve God. When I finally (after my second application) received the coveted invitation to go to Russia with the Institute, I was so excited to be off on this great adventure at what felt like a very grown up 17 years of age.

Eighteen years later, I have a hard time facing all of the memories from the year that I spent at the Moscow Training Center (MTC). Many of these memories are permanently blocked, and mercifully so. My spiritual life took years to recover. Emotionally, even though I have healed, there is an indelible mark from what I experienced, and I am still living with chronic illness as a result of the constant stresses that were a part of life at an ATI training center.

Near the end of my year at the MTC my parents began to worry about me, but I had no idea how to tell them what was happening. I did not have words to express the culture of fear and oppression that surrounded me. On some level I was worried that if I were not at the training center, I would not be pleasing God anymore, but I did not know how to begin to express this feeling to them either.

Not only did I have no idea how to tell my parents what was happening, but also much of my communication with them was monitored. Regular mail came and went through ATI/IBLP Headquarters and was all opened. Faxes and e-mails were to be given to someone else to send. However, since I worked in the office, I found ways to send faxes to my parents at night. A person known to monitor and report the contents of calls would always just happen to be the phone room while I was making a call. So I started skipping dinner to be able to call home without an audience. Even though I managed to talk to my parents without being listened to, I still could not put into words what was so wrong. Fortunately, they knew me well enough to know that things were not okay. Because of my parents’ growing concerns, they decided to come visit me at the MTC.

My parents have told me that they certainly would have believed me if I had told them about the MTC, but they never would have truly comprehended it without the personal experience. The following is an interview with my parents about their time at the MTC, and what they saw.

————–

Diana: How did you first get involved with IBLP and ATI?

Mom:Friends who were involved in Campus Crusade went to this seminar [The Basic Seminar], and they raved about how wonderful and life changing it was. So the next time it came to town, we went. This was in 1969. We loved it so much that I got involved in registering, Dad ushered, and we were thrilled that people’s lives were being changed. At least the promise of change was there.

Dad traveled to a men’s seminar where Bill [Gothard] asked people if he were to begin a home school program, would people be interested. There was a rousing response by those attending. For various reasons, most of which we can’t remember, we didn’t apply for and enter this program until 1992.

Diana: What led you to visit the MTC?

Mom:You had been living there, and we started to notice that things were not quite right. We thought maybe you were under stress and it was getting to you, but your responses were always fake positive.

Dad:Then we had a slight indication that you were under stress when you would call home just to cry on the phone.

Mom: Something else that tipped me off was when I started raving about the wonderful story in the [ATI] newsletter I had just received, and you tersely responded that this was not at all what had happened. This was because you had been there and knew that the newsletter account was an exaggeration to the point of being unrecognizable. We decided to come visit after we got five phone calls in one week with you crying on the phone, and it was $40 a phone call!

Dad (Looking at Mom): I said, “You get a ticket to get over there right now.”

Mom: I had never been apart from Dad in 23 years of marriage.

Dad: I couldn’t go yet, and I wanted her to get over there and see what was happening.

Mom:As I look back, there were things that should have tipped me off. For one, they [IBLP/ATI Headquarters staff] didn’t want to let me purchase my own ticket, because they wanted the frequent flyer miles. They didn’t know they were dealing the original Mrs. Scrooge, and I insisted, and I ended up purchasing my own ticket. They also wanted to limit the length of my stay. They informed me that “most parents stayed only…” for a short amount of time. I ended up staying for six weeks in spite of their “encouragement” otherwise. In order to fit in, I got a perm so I would have curls.

Diana:You say you already had an indication that something was wrong at the MTC. What started to open your eyes to just how extensive the problems really were?

Mom: My greeting at the MTC was being pulled aside by a very “concerned” staff mother who informed me, “Mrs. Hall, I can tell that Diana came from a good home, but she’s fallen in with the wrong crowd.” I thanked her for warning me and was very worried, watching carefully to see who these young people were. I started meeting very nice girls and wondered if these were decoy friends to hide the real rebellious crowd my daughter was running with.

Diana: When did it dawn on you that there was no “bad crowd”?

Mom:I got to know these kids, and one day finally told you about what I had been told upon my arrival. You clarified that these were, indeed, your friends. Girls began to spend more and more time in our room. They would be affectionate with me and want to be with our family, and I was invited to do things with the girls as one of them. These girls would beg me to wait to do our Bible reading until they could be there in the evening.

Then girls, and even one orphanage mother, began to knock on the door late at night and pour out their hearts to me. They told me stories of things they had been through there, and I would look at them and ask them if they had told their parents. Many of them would say, “Well, things are really worse at home,” and this would just break my heart. The orphanage mother who would come would confide in me about her abusive husband, and even while we would be visiting, he would send his children to come and check on her very frequently.

It took about a week before I called my husband and said, “I’m scared here and we’re coming home.” He responded, “No, you’re not; you’re staying there. I need to see with my own eyes.”

Dad:Well, the first thing was when Mom called and announced she was coming home because of the atmosphere of fear around there. I had to see it for myself to understand that. At that point I couldn’t fathom how an organization that was founded on such “basic, non-optional, unchangeable” principles could have gotten to that point.

Diana:(Dad arrived two weeks after mom and stayed for four weeks.)

Diana with her mom in Moscow

Dad:Not long after I arrived, I saw the actual fear and trepidation for the first time. We had been out in the city all day and did not have time to get back to the MTC to change into the required blue and white for the weekly outreach meeting at Flotskaya. You and Mom were in a panic that you couldn’t go because the long, baggy denim dresses you were wearing were unapproved and would get us in trouble. We had to sit in the back with our long winter coats covering the fact that we were not in uniform. I understood then the pressure of being in total conformity, and I started to see that much more was put on outward appearance than on the condition of the heart.

Diana:How would you describe the overall atmosphere at the training center?

Diana:I remember her looking sad, the few times I passed her. She looked so unhappy. How did you see students being treated while living and working at the training center?

Mom:Inconsistently. Compare the young man forced to repeatedly sweep a not-really-dirty sidewalk to keep him down and break his spirit, to the young privileged leader who was obviously in love with his future wife, flirting in front of everyone, — and when I asked him about it point blank, he lied about it. Compare the case of a girl who was treated as “almost an LIT” [Leader in Training] having to get up to clean toilets at 4 a.m. as punishment for one candy wrapper someone else threw in her garbage can between the time she cleaned and the time of room check, to a girl whom I worked with in the sewing room, who had to go into the MTC leaders’ apartment to measure for curtains and informed me that it was the hugest mess that she had ever seen. Totally inconsistent standards, depending on how high up and important you were — or weren’t.

Diana: You both worked in areas of the MTC in which you had ample previous experience. Dad, you worked in construction, and Mom, in sewing and cooking. Tell me a little bit about this experience.

Mom:There were a lot of nice young people who respected our knowledge and experience. There were also those who were very young to be in such responsible positions and were not at all respectful of our age or what we knew about the particular subject. We also saw examples of waste and inefficiency because of inexperience and youth being given so much authority.

Diana:Is there anything you can point to as the final straw that made you realize that this problem went all the way to the top?

Mom:The kids needed love, reinforcement, and appreciation, and instead they just got kicked and kicked and kicked.

One of the final blows was a situation that happened while we were visiting St. Petersburg. One of the students did something that was against the rules. It was not a horrible or evil thing, but it was against the rules. This student’s parents were about to come visit, as already arranged, and in spite of their begging to be allowed to arrive before he made a final decision, Bill sent the student home immediately. He then proceeded to lie about the student’s past in front of a general meeting at the training center, and defamed this student’s character. Any respect we might have still had for Bill at this point was totally gone.

[Editor’s note: This account was received secondhand by the Halls when they returned from St. Petersburg to Moscow, but has been verified by other staff members who were present at that meeting. The student’s parents later confirmed to Mr. and Mrs. Hall via phone that much of the information Gothard publicly gave in the meeting about the student was fabricated.]

Diana:Tell me about the meeting you got to attend with Mr. Gothard.

Dad:We had been asked to stay with some of the Russian orphans while their staff family went to the States for Christmas, so when Mr. Gothard visited and had a meeting with all the orphanage families, we were invited to attend.

Mom:I remember there was something that Bill said, and one of the staff moms asked him to clarify; it seemed like she disagreed. I can’t remember the exchange that brought him to this point, but the quote we will never forget was when he said, “Christians can’t handle freedom.” He was also strongly implying that he was there to impose the much-needed order.

Diana:Mom, before we left, someone asked you for your take on the MTC. What did you say to her?

Mom:The night before we left, one of the orphanage moms came to our apartment and asked me what had been my observation of the time there. I said, “Well, the orphans seem to be loved and taken care of,” but without even thinking about it I also said, “This organization has no love and no grace.” She just sat there looking stunned and horrified.

On my flight back from London to the U.S. I was leaning my head on the plane window and the words “cult, cult, cult” kept ringing in my head. I knew about Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the like — but I didn’t think I was part of a cult! When I got home I called my friend Kathy, who had been part of the Two By Twos. We got together and I told her everything I could remember about it and she said, “Marie, that’s a cult — get out!”

Diana:What about the letter you wrote to Bill Gothard, Dad?

Dad:Not long after we returned from the MTC, I remember writing a letter and making sure that he got it. I hand-delivered it when he was in town for a pastors’ seminar. The gist of my letter was that I felt that there wasn’t grace in the training center and that the kids were living in fear. The point of writing this was so that Bill could not say that he had not been told of the true condition of a training center.

—————————

This January marks 17 years since the day I rode to the Moscow airport hiding jeans under my large navy skirt. I changed in the airport bathroom and never looked back. That was the beginning of a long process of leaving behind the bad things about that experience and truly finding God’s grace again in my life.

All articles on this site reflect the views of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of other Recovering Grace contributors or the leadership of the site. Students who have survived Gothardism tend to end up at a wide variety of places on the spiritual and theological spectrum, thus the diversity of opinions expressed on this website reflects that. For our official statement of beliefs, click here.

About the author

Diana continued working as a Russian interpreter and took further mission trips to Russia after leaving ATI. With much support and help from her amazing parents, she went on to graduate from Portland State University. She married her wonderful husband in 2003 and her daughters were born in 2007 and 2009. She and her husband pastored in Mexico for 6 years before moving to Washington State. They find living under grace to be beautiful, and are raising their daughters in that freedom.

58 Comments

Reading it, there are several things that deeply resonate for me. One is just how difficult or impossible it is to communicate a culture of fear until you have experienced it.

Another is the clash between that culture of fear versus the inconsistent standards of the favored few. As a young person dedicated to serving God, which I thought at the time meant serving the Institute, it was very confusing.

I remember it actually being a relief when I saw one of the leaders, a somewhat aggressive elderly man, yelling at someone for not getting a job done. The reason it was a relief was because I was having a hard time knowing from one leader to the next if the most important thing was keeping up appearances or getting the job done.

For example, if you have a task to do, and it will require arriving back at the boat (we were living on boats at the time) 15 minutes past curfew, what do you do? Finish the task and return late, or return on time and abandon the task? Depending on who is in charge, either decision could get you sent home. The one is proving yourself an unfaithful servant (failing to "deliver the letter to Garcia") while the other is rebellion, which is "as the sin of witchcraft." I was relieved to know that with one leader at least, getting the job done took priority over nit-picky appearances. That made more sense to me.

I don't question that many of the people involved were extremely dedicated, sincere people. And for me, the time in Moscow was overall a very good experience. But religious systems that lack grace and love for the individual are doomed to create some of the very problems that Jesus addressed with the Pharisees.

You Will Know Them by Their FruitsMatt. 7:15-2015 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Wow, yet another indication that our parents often had no idea what we were being subjected to at training centers. So happy that your parents were deeply concerned for your well-being and made the trip to see for themselves.

Genius with having most of this be an interview with your parents, Diana.

Tragically, the average Gothard supporter can easily dismiss us 'rebellious teens' all too easily. Even if we're in our 30s and 40's now. Dismissing 'the adult's' testimony of life in a TC is much more challenging - especially when your parents went to the MTC so supportive of Gothard...

My parents visited at least twice during my 3 years at the MTC, but I don't think they ever saw the reality yours did. Their visits were brief, and to be honest, I didn't really try... it was like they'd come from another world... where do you start explaining?

Much gratitude to you and your parents for collaborating on this article.

This is how it was, wonderful in some ways, awful in others, but all a front for the reality of "Christians can't handle freedom" - or grace, trust, or genuine love... some days I think I'm still recovering from those 3 years in Moscow.

Will: I don't mean anything by this question, just curious. If it was so bad, why did you stay 3 years? BTW, I have never been to a training center and have only been to a handful of seminars through the years.

This can be a difficult question to answer. Why does anyone stay too long in a bad situation? I will let Will give you his reasons. I know mine. There are entire books written about how mind control works but the short version is - while there, I was made to feel like working "under their authority" was the best way to please God and do His will. There were invisible chains forming around me that only grew stronger the longer I was there. The more beat down and fearful I was, the less likely I was to actually leave. I did not have the strength to stand up and say "I need to get out of here." I was in the very fortunate minority to have parents who came to realize that they needed to do that for me, or I might have been there longer than a year myself.

My first year in Moscow was enough to show me at least several things: 1) I did NOT agree with a lot of the absurdity being paraded as spirituality at the MTC2)By at least 1/2 way through that 1st yr, maybe sooner, I was coming to love the place I was in and the people I was with...Russia and Russians, respectively. ;)3)I didn't know what else I wanted to do in life at that time that I would enjoy more than being in the Moscow school and Russian church I'd spent most of the year at... not to mention close friends I'd found in the TC.4) I DID know that my parents wouldn't be at all supportive of me striking out on my own in Russia at 19-20 yrs of age... and didn't want to ruin my relationship with them.

In short, I came to deeply love Russia, and saw no better way of returning than w/ATI. I figured I could ignore the most stupid of the rules, toe the line where needed, and try to spend as much time as possible w/Russians,with both friends in the MTC and those in the 'real world' outside the bounds of the TC.

That was my goal upon returning for the 2nd year. It didn't work out all that well. =( It was very hard... especially when we were basically told that 'ministering to Russians' is ideally to be done on the territory of the MTC.

At the end of the 2nd year, I still didn't see a realistic way for me to return to 'my' school and church in Moscow aside from ATI, so I decided that I could tough it out one last year, try to give as much possible to the MTC and also be w/Russian friends 'on the outside' to the maximum as well - one last hurrah, as it were.

I would have been trying to get back to Moscow independent of ATI the next month after returning to the US that summer if had been possible. My parents advised that I attend at least a 2yr Bible college in preparation for carrying out my desire to minister in and with the local Russian churches I'd come to know and love.

That was 1997. Fall/winter of that year I was at Bible School. 1999 I was back in Russia for almost 3 months on 2 different trips... 2001, my wife and I moved to Moscow. We have lived in Russia and Ukraine since then. =)

Does that help explain why I would go back? I loved Russia. IBLP/ATIA was my only (or so I thought at the time) opportunity to be there. I decided the screwed-up life in the TC was worth being in Russia - for at least 3 years. (At which point I would have been seriously pushing the limits of my already fragile mental/emotional/spiritual health to even consider returning.)

gratefulJanuary 15, 2013

Tahnks for sharing your story, may the Lord bless your ministry. I am always amazed when I hear of someone developing or having a burden for a certain people group or country. I'm sure you vblessed many people through your service at MTC.

I was at the MTC for over 4 years. It was totally frustrating dealing with all of the hypocrisy from the leadership, I did have several chances to stand up for the people I was serving to dull the awfulness of it for those I was serving, namely, the Russians, especially the Russian orphans. For me, I felt like I was doing the Lord's work, and loving the orphans and seeing their love for me (well, in some cases!) was more rewarding than any other work I had done to that point. It made all the obstacles and roadblocks worth it. Now, I do wish I had understood more and could have done more to protect those at least partially under my care, but I do believe God forgives me for my ignorance.

Will Hunsucker!!! Wow, I dn't know if you'll remember me, I was only there for 5 mo. I agree it was good in some ways, really bad in others. My parents hated what I'd become when I came home and demanded I stop asking for permission for everything, haha, I remember the fear and constant condemnation. Not healthy. I still use Gothard materials... but balance them with grace, love and forgiveness. He really did have a lot of good things to say but the imbalance and legalizam killed many.

I personally am convinced that the best way to use Gothard materials is not at all. Anything good he has can be found elsewhere, and his thorough, consistent misuse of the Bible to back up his teachings is really alarming if you start studying what he claims the Bible says.

Glad you're in a healthy place in life, looks like you have a great ministry in the same part of the world we're in. (Eastern Europe)

This was similar to my experiences at ITC too. My parents visited a few times but it was just a few hours and most of that time we spent away from the facility, so it was hard to explain what the culture inside a training center was like. You are blessed that your parents were willing to go to such great lengths to look into their suspicions that all was not well with you while serving there.

For me, the most telling part about this entire piece was your father's recognition that your MOTHER was afraid of getting in trouble for wearing denim while at MTC. As an adult, your mother should have been free to wear whatever she chose . . . Doing so might reasonably be interpreted as a lack of deference on her part for another person's preference, but some sort of punishable offense?

Reminds me of the Jack Nicholson line in "A Few Good Men"... "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"As I recall, as commanding officer, he felt entirely justified for the unnecessary death of a soldier and subsequent coverup because of "the greater good" of protecting our country.

That's what I'm wondering. I'm actually quite curious to see what kind of cock and bull nonsense someone can come up with to explain away direct eyewitness events (esp that have been confirmed by other eyewitnesses.) I've always thought that the human mind can argue, justify, talk itself in or out of anything, I really do believe it's true. I think that's why the Scripture says, 'the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?' People who will justify, or IGNORE this, are really cutting off their nose to spite their face.

In a way though, I really do pity those entangled in that mindset. From my personal experience, I believe most of them will never admit that ATI is not truly Bible based, because it would cost them a lifetime of pride to even admit to themselves that they strove and lived for was a lie. I see this in my parents. Willing to overlook or justify things that they'd never let anyone else get away with, as long as it ultimately serves or suits them. It's a crying shame, that's what.

I lived at the MTC for 6 months when I was 16. I got into my fair share of trouble because I didn't always want to conform to the rules, but all-in-all the experience was good. Made lifelong friends and memories! I didn't care much for the leadership, but they were good people just had different thinking than I. I think it is what you make it.

Hi, AnnaBeth! I lived at the MTC for three months at the same time Diana was there, and I turned 16 there. I got into scrapes a couple of times for minor infractions, but my experience was very different from Diana's because I was never targeted. In retrospect I think my extreme youth protected me, and I was eager to please and easy to control.

As the year progressed (I came near the end of Diana's stay) I became increasingly aware of how much pressure many of the people around me were under to prove that they weren't "rebellious," to prove a negative that cannot be actively proven. There was a new and constantly escalating undertone that most of us students were not what we should be. I don't mean pressure to grow and mature, but pressure to repent of being... I'm not even sure what, other than not good enough. We were policed more and more heavily and punitively for reasons that were not clear to me. A culture of constant monitoring and snitching was actively cultivated by the leadership, even though there was almost never anything of substance to report. People were sent home for having the wrong "spirit" if leadership had decided they were somehow undesirable, but could find no evidence of actual misconduct. We were treated as children or property, but I was too young and inexperienced to realize this was unhealthy.

Much of this I experienced as a growing sense of fear and unease, but it wasn't until much later that I learned some of the stories of all that had gone on around me. I made lifelong friends and memories, was elated to be in Moscow, worked hard, and did everything I could to make the best of the opportunity. If you had a good experience at the MTC, that's great; much of mine was good, too. That does not negate the stories of those around us who were less fortunate.

I'm guessing you didn't mean it this way, but the idea that it is what you make it, tells Diana you don't believe her story, or that she "brought it on herself".

Unlike Diana, I was considered a "good girl" (why, I am not sure), yet I was still gripped in the culture of fear and needing to please. Diana did not bring it upon herself, and even the "good" girls experienced it. It wasn't what either of us made of it. Having been there at the time, I can verify her story

Either a) you didn't experience the same abuse Diana speaks of, or b) you were accustomed to it, so didn't see it as abusive.

I was also at the MTC while Diana was there, and celebrated my 18th birthday while there. I was definitely a "good girl," but for some reason, I still felt the oppression. I loved every minute while in Russia while I was with Russians, but I was always misunderstood by the American leadership.

For example, I came down with the Russian cold/flu, but I was still expected to be up on my feet doing my work. When I asked to rest, I was given a lot of push-back on it. Finally I was told I could stay in bed--IF I got up, got fully dressed, and crossed the campus in freezing, snowy weather to attend the morning devotionals. Then I could go back to bed. Uh huh. Lots of wisdom there! So I happened to mention this to my parents, and they wrote an extremely gracious, kind letter of appeal to the leadership. I still have it in my files. In response, the leadership got very upset at me for involving my parents, and instead it aroused more suspicion of me and closer scrutiny. There was definitely an attitude of, "You need to be giving us 120%, and if you get sick or have to take time off, you're no longer valuable to us." I can't tell you how badly this messed up my view of work and sickness. For years after this, I would try to work through any sickness. After I left ATI and joined another ministry, my co-workers would lovingly beat me up for coming into work while sick--THEY didn't want to get it and would always order me back home! But I had been taught that was the most spiritual thing to do--to keep working through any sickness for the sake of ministry.

I wish the Russian leadership had valued us for who we were, not for all the work they could get out of us. The main leader actually told me while I was sick, "If you're not strong enough to make it on the battlefield, I'm not sure why you're even here."

This may not be the best location to pose this question, but I would like to hear from you "veterans" of ATI. A little background: I was not raised ATI (quite the contrary actually) but have gone to several seminars through the years and came away spiritually challenged and had an overall positive take on IBLP. I eventually married an ATI girl and had a positive courtship - it pretty much lived up to what was promoted. So, then I stumble upon this website after several of my ATI friends and their families begin living 180 degrees of how they had lived for the previous 20 yrs - and read of seemingly horror story after horror story. I'm trying to process all of this. A good friend who was been involved w/ IBLP for many years has this speculation (and I tend to agree): He feels like Bill messed up and wandered out of God's will for the ministry when he began focusing on other things beyond the semeinars (i.e. ATI, Character First, the trainin centers, etc.) I was just wondering if any of you all had an opinion on the matter. I just can't shake the positive things and true growth I came away with from primarily the Basic.

As a "veteran", I honestly don't believe that. I believe Gothard has always had an incomplete and imperfect understanding of grace. At the same time, he is gifted with a charismatic, persuasive personality. Put it together, you have a shiny, glamourous movement devoid of grace, and therefore focused on works. He could have gone either Christian or secular with these gifts; he chose to go Christian. Perhaps the secular route would have proved slightly less damaging to so many followers. He had the ability to create a powerful movement, basically out of nothing. Which is why you find solid doctrine sorely lacking at the core of the movement. It was built on nothing of real substance.

The conspicuous absence of the doctrine of grace and its effects of producing a works-based mentality, is outlined in the book, A Matter of Basic Principles.

If you gained significant spiritual growth from the BS, you may wish to go back and re-evaluate your entire Christian life, from the very beginning. I am not saying this to hurt you, but because it is what many of us have had to do. The entire ministry is based on a definition of grace that nullifies the very essence of grace, making it instead about works. If grace is no more about Christ's sacrifice, and instead becomes about the things I "do" for God, then the Gospel is no longer the Gospel. Grace is no more grace, and there is no more salvation or hope for mankind. Gothard's doctrine of grace will cripple your Christian life from the outset, but it may take years to see the full devastation of it. Get out, while you can.

I think your comment above may bolster the speculation about BG losing focus when he moved away from the seminars. Given my worldy background coming up, I was very much challenged in the Basic. The 10 unchangeables, the thermometor doemonstrating the scale of the reprobate mind, gaining a clear conscience, memorizing scripture, majorly commmiting areas of my life (dating, vehicles, etc.)to the Lord was all very new and refreshing to me - and reflecting on these did allow me to grow in the Lord. The bit about grace I dismissed because it was obvious to me that I was saved by grace (God's unmerited favor) and Bill's definition had a secondary meaning at best. Now, compare that take with those who were brought up and entrenched in the "system" and you have two vastly different conclusions to the matter - especially when you have all these "training" centers and such. After reading many articles on this website, the TC's seem to be where a lot of the legalistic garbage was institutionalized. So, my take is the Basic can be instrumental in a Christian's life that is young in the Lord, but the ancillary ministry's were taken to the extreme and way out of balance/focus. Am I way off base? I know that the Lord used the Basic in my life in a postivie way; will I go back with my kids later, perhaps, but more than likely not.

"Anything that is good in Gothard is not original to Gothard; while anything that IS original to Gothard is not good..."

Seems to be pretty applicable, across the board, with BG's teachings.

If one can find the same 'good' elsewhere, (especially in a teacher or organization that has shown themselves to actually respect the Bible as opposed to twisting it as Gothard does), then why even look for the baby in the bathwater? If you start looking pretty closely, that water's pretty murky... ;)

IleataJanuary 18, 2013

God can use anything in our lives for good. That's because he's God. :-)

The BS did some serious damage to my life. The authority teaching in all of it's insanity starts there. And there are a bunch of little side things that are really damaging if you listen to them. Like the idea that if you fear something, cosmic forces go into effect to make it happen. I wrote about that in "The Gift of Peace" http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/12/the-gift-of-peace/

Gothard spends a lot of that seminar telling us what "God intended" in many situations where he can't really know that. And in some situations, his "reason" is very different than the obvious one. Like why God sent double manna on Fridays while Israel was in the wilderness. He insists it was to encourage people to fast. I would guess that a majority of us spent many a Sundays fasting because it was "God's design," even though the sriptural reason was to make a way for the people to keep the Sabbath while eating.

At the BS, many of us were put into bondage to vows that we should have never made. My read-the-Bible-every-day vow hurt my walk with God; it didn't help it.

Even teachings that should have a Biblical basis (like having a clear conscience) are taught in a way that isn't Biblical at that seminar. I'm from a background that teaches you can lose your salvation. So, when BG says that when Jesus says "Bring forth fruits meet for repentance" meant to make restitution, I was sure that if I didn't make proper restiution for every sin, I wasn't repentant and would go to hell. I was in my late teens when I realized that I only had to confess sin to God and not do a bunch of penance to prove I was repentant and be forgiven.

At the BS, we are taught that if we just follow the principle of suffering, we don't need to obey the Biblical mandate to "go and tell" because people will "come and ask."

So, while it has some good things, there's enough bad that I wouldn't recommend it to someone. The good can be found in places where it's not laced with poison.

"Hannah"January 18, 2013

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he not have this view of grace from the beginning? Not that he always said so, but we get glimpses into his childhood in the bs: In the time period when his father was working for a Skid Row mission, Bill wandered off and watched a nickelodeon. Now, not having seen a nickelodeon in this part of town, I don't know but what it might have been highly suggestive in content. Or it may have been as harmless as a movie theater; either way, his father was shocked, and reacted, "Here I am to save the lost, and I lose my own son. So the child Bill, in attempt to please his father, makes a somewhat arbitrary vow to never enter a movie theater.

It's this kind of thing, that makes me think it has always been about works for him, not only in recent years. I mean, that's rather a heavy burden for a young child to bear.

"Hannah"January 18, 2013

And I will say that the "unchangeables" is mostly a very freeing teaching. Certainly not every single teaching of his, is toxic. However, his teachings on grace and on authority, are, and these teachings are foundational to his ministry.

BeverlyBJanuary 18, 2013

It is interesting that the few teachings of his that WERE good, he didn't follow--like the unchangeables. He tried to change everyone who worked for him and their unchangeables--asking them to have surgery to remove a mole, flatten hair that was too curly, or curl hair that was too flat, shame them for being naturally big-busted, etc. Not to mention if someone didn't look just right (like overweight) he'd make sure they remained hidden or out-of-the-way when delegations came through HQ. So yes, the teaching was good. Too bad he didn't allow those around him the dignity of appreciating and thanking God for their own unchangeables without feeling self-conscious about it. So it's yet another teaching example of "Do as I say, not as I do."

IleataJanuary 18, 2013

The unchangeables helped me, too. But the broader "principle of design" led to a lot of abuse. "If you hang a coat on the back of a chair, you are violating the principle of design because the chair was designed for sitting on, not as a coat hanger," etc. That can be twisted in so many ways to manipulate people into a particular behavior. Gothard pretends to know God's design for many things that he just can't know.

Hi grateful, I'm a veteran of ATI and the seminars. Have you read this article yet? http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/12/peering-underneath-the-umbrella-musings-on-gothardism/. I love how the author points out that even the Basic Seminar, which sounds biblical on the surface, denies the power of Christ in its practical outworkings of those principles.

Quoting from the above article: "But to put it all into a nutshell, the fatal flaw of Gothard’s teachings is that he denies the power of Christ. It is all about Man (and here, the male gender is most definitely implied). Even grace becomes redefined as MAN’s desire and MAN’s ability to do God’s will. “Grace” rests squarely on our efforts. (“Would you make a vow to do XYZ? And if you really mean it, would you raise your hand as an outward demonstration…”) The work of the Cross becomes an afterthought, and all that matters is our ability to conform to the checklist."

For some, they are able to take the Basic Seminar on the surface level, pull from good theology they have been taught elsewhere, and come away better. But for many, following biblical principles become almost an end in themselves--the highest level of the Christian walk, if you will. That is outright idolatry, as Christ becomes an afterthought.

One of my favorite authors, A.W. Tozer put it this way, "The Bible [or biblical principles] is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts." Amen!

I know someone who continues to defend Gothard today who says that Gothard literally saved his life by helping him kick a heroine addiction. A lot of people have good memories of raising their hands and committing to forgive someone or to submit to God or clear their conscience or something (it strikes me just now how similar some of that is to AA in some ways). If it was supposedly so bad, how could all this good come from it?

I will throw a couple quick ideas out there:1) We have all heard how that if the space shuttle were aimed even a tiny bit wrong, it would miss the moon by miles. I think Gothard was aimed wrong early on, but it was harder to see it back then. Move it forward a generation, and he missed the moon by miles. Those whose knew him were closer to the launchpad than the moon, perhaps their experience was somewhat different.

2) It is different for someone to grow up and then to encounter a set of teachings and incorporate those into an already-formed or mostly-formed worldview, and to see it as a helpful corrective to previous excesses, than it is for someone to grow up entirely under that umbrella (pun not necessarily intended) and to be shaped much more significantly by that mold. For someone emerging from a looser background, Gothard might appear to be like a more intense version of Billy Graham, calling people to God. For someone who is raised in it, Gothardism can seem more like Stalinism (exaggerating to make the point). In my home growing up, any attempt at any personal space was seen as rebellion and could be mocked or punished. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and there can become an intense focus for parents on making sure that no matter how hard I poke you, you will not do anything in response that I can construe as rebellion. Some families certainly not, but some families became soul-crushing places.

3) It creates a mental tension, but it is possible for Gothard to have been wrong and/or less sincere than it seemed, and yet for your experience to be totally valid. Your walk with God is between you and God, so even if Gothard wasn't completely right, that does not prevent your own heart from having a real and meaningful encounter with God. As an extreme example, some people have experienced significant improvement or healing due to taking a new drug, and yet it was a placebo. The placebo was not in itself effective but the person is happy for the benefits.

hmmm, this is getting long. I will post a couple other things in separate comments.

Gothard's fundamental orientation is toward law rather than gospel — emphasis on law is always more attractive than emphasis on the gospel. Law is much more tangible, and adherence to it more easily measured. Gothard's lectures are a series of Thou-Shalts and Thou-Shalt-Nots which determine our success in life. The trouble is that when his listeners go home and discover that things don't always work out the way he said they would, they wonder what they did wrong.

To be critical of Gothard demands that we first of all be critical of ourselves. Why is it that people are flocking to him? What have they found lacking in the presentations in our churches?

[God can work even through bad theology] Still, Bill Gothard makes me nervous. He has an almost fascistic view of power, and he comes on the scene at a time when people are searching for an answer man, a man with authority and power. My fear is that, without intending to do so, Gothard will make people so rigid and assured of their own rightness that they will be unable to understand, much less to sympathize with, those of their fellow human beings who hold other views. History tells us what happens when well-meaning, deeply committed religious people substitute law for gospel — and what it tells us is not pleasant.

Consider J.I. Packer's experience with Keswick or Higher Life thinking:

At that time I did not know that Harry Ironside, sometime pastor of Moody Memorial Church, Chicago, once drove himself into a full-scale mental breakdown through trying to get into the higher life as I was trying to get into it; and I would not have dared to conclude, as I have concluded since, that this higher life as described is a will-o’-the-wisp, an unreality that no one has ever laid hold of at all, and that those who testify to their experience in these terms really, if unwittingly, distort what has happened to them. All I knew was that the expected experience was not coming. The technique was not working. Why not? Well, since the teaching declared that everything depends on consecration being total, the fault had to lie in me. So I must scrape my inside again to find whatever maggots of unconsecrated selfhood still lurked there. I became fairly frantic.

It would be incorrect to assume that everyone who went to Keswick conferences ended up in mental breakdown. Indeed, there was much good. But there were problems, too. I would see Gothardism similarly. Surely there was a lot of good. But it's not enough to ask if good could have happened or did happen - you also have to look at the failures. By the standard of his own enthusiastic promises, Gothard's system failed. If it had succeeded, there would be literally thousands of young people now raising a 2nd and 3rd generation of ATI kids. As it is, second-gen kids are about like snipes - rumored to exist but hard to find. That's obviously partly because I don't hang around those circles any more. Far too many of those who really tried it found something similar to what Packer experienced: they ended up driving themselves crazy trying to figure out what they were doing wrong.

For those who claim good results from "Christian" rock music, ask "if a restaurant served wonderful food, but one in every ten people got food poisoning, would the health department be impressed with the many glowing testimonials?" (from the booklet about Christian rock)

None of this means that your own experiences were invalid. I can point to some good things as well, including a basic orientation in life towards wanting to please God and to be wise. But if you apply his own words back to his own system, would the health department be impressed with the many glowing testimonials?

I think that there is just a huge difference between attending a seminar and growing up under the teachings. My dad went to his first seminar when I was just a kid, I went every year from twleve until my early twenties. If you already have a good foundation, you can probably take the good and ignore the bad in the seminar. If you are a gullible kid who really wants to please God, the seminar itself can wreak havoc on your spiritual life.

And, though I think the poison is in the Basic Seminar, the further you go into IBLP word, the worse it gets. The Advanced Seminar taught me to do Wisdom Search, which made my time with the Word all about me and proof texting. It's been twenty years and I'm still working to recover from that.

Then, if you get into ATI, Wisdom Booklets give you step by step instructions on judgementalism and having a superior attitude. We were taught to look down on the wider church, to judge everyone -- even our poor deluded pastors. We picked apart the lives of great Christians to determine what principle they had broken that caused tragedy in their lives.

Some families were able to curb some of that. Some parents argued regularly with the WB's and some didn't use them as their whole curricullum even though we were told that if we didn't we weren't doing ATI.

So, not everyone has the same experience, but the messed up theology is there from the beginning.

Grateful, I too thought at first that Mr. Gothard must have been good back at the beginning of the seminars and then gradually lost focus or whatever. Several things have convinced me that is not true. Others have elaborated on many of those things already.

The teachings on grace and authority are definitely the foundation for everything he has ever taught. And those two teachings are definitely not balanced or true in the way he teaches. This website is full of examples.

You are slightly correct in that the Basic Seminar is less problematic than the Advanced, which is also less problematic than the teaching in ATI. There were different levels for a reason. Without the teaching of the Basic being accepted, most people would have reacted strongly against the Advanced. (You can't just start teaching people how to run their sex life without establishing some kind of authority first. Especially when you are a bachelor and claim to be a virgin!) And without accepting the teachings in the Advanced, you would be unlikely to accept the further teachings of ATI. Training centers did appear to be even worse as far as the level of control and indoctrination. So yes, there were levels. That does NOT make the Basic Seminar ok.

Also, you have to understand that as you went through the levels of Basic, Advanced, ATI, etc., you gradually learned some coded language. Things that outsiders would not catch or even understand. Therefore, to outsiders, Mr. Gothard's teaching could seem reasonable. (It is a good thing to listen to authority and not automatically assume you know better than someone with much more experience than yourself.) However, to those who had received further teaching and knew the code, that same teaching meant something entirely different. (You are going to be destroyed by Satan if you so much as think about doing anything other than following every wish and whim of your authority.) Coded language is a hallmark of cults.

I became completely convinced that Mr. Gothard has not changed when I read the book Joy That Lasts by Gary Smalley. In that book, he describes his experience with Gothard during the very early days of the seminars. (In the earlier version of the book, Gothard is not named. In the later version, he is.) Mr. Gothard's treatment of Mr. Smalley is EXACTLY how he currently treats people who work for him. Follow his every wish and whim and give 110% of yourself and you will be praised and allowed in the inner circle. Question anything or admit that you have needs and can give only 90% of yourself, and you will be shunned, shifted to a less visible location/job, and eventually squeezed out entirely. How fast this happens often depends on how deep your questions are. It can happen in minutes or months. Even more telling, you will often wind up blaming yourself instead of Mr. Gothard, as Mr. Smalley does in his book.

No, Mr. Gothard has not changed. He has only grown more bold in his false teachings and his abuse of people.

Wow. Now I'm wishing to read Smalley's bit of history, there. I believe he briefly alludes to his time working with IBYC in his "love languages" book. But iirc, he either says only good things about Gothard, or offers an excuse for Gothard's behavior.

wow, I really appreciate you mentioning that. I had no idea he had written about that. I'm sitting in the library and they happened to have a copy of that book. Between using the search feature on Amazon.com to search for Gothard's name in the book, and the physical copy of the book here, I was able to scan quickly through and get an idea of the story.

I am impressed with Smalley's ability to share his story without stirring up angst against Gothard - it speaks highly of Smalley. From my perspective, I would say Smalley is very, very generous in chalking many of the issues up to Bill's "management style".

Smalley is generous and vulnerable in sharing from his heart and I would not want to presume upon that. It stands out to me that at the height of his experience with Bill, he describes great joy and warmth in the friendship with Bill but his wife was feeling left out and the marriage was suffering. I understand that struggle between career and family, as do many men. But I find it significant that at the very moment when the Institute is promising to make strong families and change everyone's life, some of the families within their own umbrella were suffering. (as many people know, this was not an isolated experience) This is not news to me now, but at one time it would have been deeply unsettling. It's another case of the public image being a carefully managed piece of art that is separate from reality. Just like in the old LA Times article and the old Christianity Today articles, Bill told everyone else how to "resolve their conflicts" while he himself was free to simply fire and/or freeze out anyone who became less useful to him. Sauce for the goose is supposed to be sauce for the gander.

Being in Gothardism is like being crushed in a giant vise.On one side of the vise is legalism.Paul holds in Galatians that the old man is and always will be crucified.Period.Gothard's teachings very subtly deflect away from these teachings redefining grace and the old man takes a leap off the cross and becomes religious.He signs promises of comitments,he keeps a surface appearance of righteousness,he does works, this really hurts...he condemns people in the flesh!Know this he who is righteous in the flesh will persecute he who is righteous by the spirit.Go on stomp on the helpless, rip apart the hapless victims ..It seems that the leadership in the church or those big names who supported him either don't want to know or are feeling too proud to repent publicly...to the degree that you endorsed this false teacher...are you willing in the same degree to renounce it?Gothard is symbolically a Nicolaitan coming from two Greek words to "conquer the people".This teaching glorifies false,fallen and pagan authority,and completely tarnishes the lord Jesus.A thought here who can we be in Christ? Not what can we do but who can we be first,then the doing will come. I've read so many articles of precious people here,and I can say in tears that I want to be someone in Christ first or become someone first which releases the mysticism of transformation,please may I become loved that I may love, may I become free that I may free others.Gothardism is a closed system of rationalim that cannot do this.

I hated the phone room no privacy (it was so difficult to finally get a time to call and then was busy this was the most frustrating aspect for me) I remember thinking (but never voicing, if I can survive this I can do anything I survived by planning in detail the rest of my life of course there was no time for this as I was one of the lucky ones selected to scrub toilets etc so I began waking up early (2-3am) to use the phone and make my exit plans I was on regularly the guard with his dog knew me. Thanks for sharing your story

Diana,Thanks for this article. I only came across it today after someone told me about the news surrounded IBLP. I'm curious whether I am the student 'that did something that was against the rules.' If so, I'm intrigued to hear what Gothard said when he 'proceeded to lie about the student’s past in front of a general meeting at the training center, and defamed this student’s character.' I don't recall ever hearing about this after I was 'given a window seat'

Want to Donate?

Want to donate to the Recovering Grace ministry? Do all of your Amazon shopping using the link below, and a small percentage comes back to us. Or you can donate directly via paypal to finance@recoveringgrace.org. Note: Recovering Grace is not a 501(c)3, and thus gifts are not tax-deductible.