Freddd,
I understand everything you said, but I have found that the number one indicator of how well I can function on any given day is how well I've slept the night before, and I simply have things I must do. There is nobody else to do them. Women never get a day off. I have not done sh*t today and that means there will be twice as much that needs doing tomorrow. I feel totally apathetic with no sleep. If I could stop the world and get off for awhile, I could stick with the total insomnia until I get past it. Given that I can't do that, I will just have to stumble along making compromises with the protocol so I can function.

klutzo

P.S. YES! I meant .25 mg. Xanax! I'd be asleep permanently with what I wrote...thanks for catching that. I will edit it.

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Hi Klutzo,

I'd be asleep permanently with what I wrote

That's kind of what I thought, very permanently.

I do see a difference now that you point it out. I was quite totally disabled and waiting to die (as the song goes) when I started the mb12 and If I was a different kind of zombi for a few days or weeks it made no difference. I fell asleep when I blinked but couldn't get a good night's sleep. I had lost my last contract for various reasons and so figuring this business out was the whole of what I was doing. I couldn't even manage to cook for the family as I had done for decades. I had some clumsy accidents with knives and didn't use anything bigger than a paring knife at that point. I'm back to using my French Chef's knife without accidents now.

I haven't managed to read this whole thread, but I read the first few posts yesterday and today.

Is there someplace this protocol is more succinctly explained, or is this thread it?

B12 has been vital for me for several years, so I'm really interested in this, but the form I'm taking is hydroxo B-12, which I'm now reading isn't all that great, and moreover I'm drinking it in full glasses of water because I cannot tolerate spraying it up my nose like it's meant to be taken. I cannot tolerate sublingual, but I think I would do well with injections.

I haven't managed to read this whole thread, but I read the first few posts yesterday and today.

Is there someplace this protocol is more succinctly explained, or is this thread it?

B12 has been vital for me for several years, so I'm really interested in this, but the form I'm taking is hydroxo B-12, which I'm now reading isn't all that great, and moreover I'm drinking it in full glasses of water because I cannot tolerate spraying it up my nose like it's meant to be taken. I cannot tolerate sublingual, but I think I would do well with injections.

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Hi Dainty,

Methylb12 is approximately 100 to 10,000 times more potent and effective than hydroxyb12 which not everybody considers a good thing. The early part of this thread has most all of the basic info on it. What is the problem with "tolerating" sublingual mb12? Taking orally as you do reduces absorbtion to 1% or less of all forms of b12.

Injections work pretty well but not as reliable as 5 star tested sublinguals are because mb12 injectable solution is fragile. Adb12 is unavailable in injectable form.

One of the problems with injectable is if you have a very powerful initial reaction to it you are there for the duration whereas with a sublingual you can chew and swallow it ending the increase in 5 minutes.

However, if injection is a must, insulin syringes and SC injections allow careful titration of mb12 in as fine a granularity of dose as you need. If you plan to do this, ask how.

I'm not sure what type of B12 I was trying sublingually, but the reason I wasn't able to take it in tablet form is because I became sensitive to the binders and fillers in the tablets. I have very severe MCS, and all my medications have to be custom compounded. At this point I do not know of any pharmeceutical binders I tolerate, and I'm not sure it's worth the money, time, energy, and stress to find out.

Since that 1% absorption makes a remarkably noticeable difference in my health, I'm interested in finding out what a more effective type and delivery method would do.

Methylb12 is approximately 100 to 10,000 times more potent and effective than hydroxyb12 which not everybody considers a good thing. The early part of this thread has most all of the basic info on it. What is the problem with "tolerating" sublingual mb12? Taking orally as you do reduces absorbtion to 1% or less of all forms of b12.

Injections work pretty well but not as reliable as 5 star tested sublinguals are because mb12 injectable solution is fragile. Adb12 is unavailable in injectable form.

One of the problems with injectable is if you have a very powerful initial reaction to it you are there for the duration whereas with a sublingual you can chew and swallow it ending the increase in 5 minutes.

However, if injection is a must, insulin syringes and SC injections allow careful titration of mb12 in as fine a granularity of dose as you need. If you plan to do this, ask how.

dmholmes,
There are many good digestive enzyme formulations with chymotrypsin in them that may help you.

My CDSA also showed overgrowth of 3 common bacterias (staph, hemolytic e coli and pseudomonas) as well as elevated candida (since taken care of with liquid Diflucan and Candex), and an infection with citrobacter freundi (taken care of with Cipro).

klutzo

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Hi klutzo,

Just wanted to comment that there are HUGE forums of people out there discussing the adverse effects of Cipro and other flouroquinolones (Favc.info). I personally took Levaquin. Basically, these people, the worst affected ones, end up with CFS/fibromyalgia (or something that looks and feels just like it). Thus, I wanted to make you aware so you can decide on the use of these antibiotics in the future.

Most people don't experience an immediate reaction (I did), it takes a bit for the symptoms to show themselves, typically 0-9 months. This is why many do not associate the symptoms with the antibiotic.

Hi Klutzo, I laughed out loud off & on all Sunday after reading your post about licking the mb12. I thought about it the first time I tried it. The second day on the mb12 several hours later it hit me, anxiety, depression and a little manic. I took some xanax and it eased up, the sleep was horrible for a few days and then it gets better. I am on 3 mb12 and Freddd suggested that at some time I may need to take 10 mb12 at a time, I have to make sure I have enough xanax in my botttle to try that. The Solgar Folate really helped with my sleep, I would take it 1/2 hour before I went to bed and I could hardly stay awake.

There are times I doubt this treatment but I have to go back to the reactions I have had with each new dose and think is this just a coincidence or do I have a B12 deficiency and this is the normal reaction. Right now I have to believe in this treatment. Good luck

Sunday,
I have a positively euphoric reaction to AB12, but later on, I pay with insomnia. Yesterday, I took only 1/4 tab of AB12 and 1/8 of MB12. I felt happy all day long. But, last night, I lingered in alpha level all night, random pictures running through my half-asleep mind, getting not one moment of real sleep, and I am still feeling wired enough to climb the walls. This has happened constantly since I've been trying this and is only relieved by stopping the supplements. Stopping is the only way I get any real sleep.

Everything I've read says if B12 makes you overly energetic like that, then you do not have a deficiency....it's very confusing. Even the B-Right makes me like that, and even my multivitamin did that if I took a full dose, since it has a lot of B vitamins in it.

Even more confusing, I just read an article by a doctor saying that even sublingual lozenges aren't absorbed well enough, and since all people over age 50 have some degree of B12 malabsorption, they should be taking enteric coated capsules, which can make it through stomach acid and are well-absorbed in the intestine.

I am keeping the doses tiny and taking them in the morning only, but it still causes insomnia. I am not taking any today, since I have to go have a lot of lab work done tomorrow morning and won't risk having a panic attack there. My anxiety level has skyrocketed since starting this, despite the reputation B vitamins have for alleviating anxiety.

I am not going to start by just licking a lozenge. I do not have that much time left on my life clock with my heart and pancreatic damage. It's going to have to move a bit faster than that, or I won't be around to see results.

My question to you is how well did you sleep after that wonderful day you had? Please keep us posted on your sleep as you continue to take it every day. I did not develop the total insomnia until the third day in....the first two days I just had reduced hours of sleep, from 8 down to 5 hrs. I am wondering if anyone else is having the severe insomnia that I am having.

klutzo

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Hi klutzo,

I had to comment on this also - one of the adverse reactions to fluoroquinolones is 'hypersensitivity' - here is a partial list for cipro

You'll see that euphoria (mania?) is one of them. I had this reaction in the beginning of taking supplements. The medicine affects your GABA receptors (or so I've read secondhand) and this can induce sensitivity to glutamates, msg, natural flavors (same as msg) etc. I would strongly consider staying away from this type of antibiotic in the future whenever possible.

Anxiety is another side effect of these antibiotics. They affect your brain receptors in a way that makes you more anxious. I was horribly anxious with panic attacks for a while after my exposure and still am, though it is getting better. I found I am overall much more sensitive to things since taking Levaquin (medicines and food). I think it is related to being overstimulated in general - there is no balance of GABA/glutamates in your brain (this I've gleaned from reading yasko's work on autism - I'm not fully informed on the info there, but did benefit personally from trying to reduce glutamates from my diet - the lozenges have natural flavors in them which is a catch phrase for MSG from what I can discern - thus minimizing MSG and glutamates in your diet could help keep this aspect in balance for you as you get started on the supplements, over time the need for this should reduce, or it has for me). If you take this into consideration, it might not be the vitamins inducing the anxiety?

I had insomnia and 'mania'? (or mania like symptoms, wide wide awake, not even feeling a little bit sleepy after taking this antibiotic and iin the months afterwards). You seem to have a much more severe experience than I did. Luckily, I found information before I got too far down the rabbit hole. I just wanted to say I have seen improvement and would expect you could have the same, but it may take longer as you have more healing to do.
Velha

Hi Fredd, I upped my adb12 on Thursday to two tablets. On Friday I upped it to 3 tablets. Maybe it was too fast because I felt bad on Friday and Saturday which included some depression and hopelessness which I haven't experienced much since starting the B12s. Sunday my mood was much better and less fatigue. I want to try the 10 tablets of mb12 at some time but right now I need some better days and courage to be in a place that I can handle it. This is where I am at with the B12s:

2 B-Right
3 adb12
3 methylb12
1 Solgar folate

Today feels like a better day. Please continue to hold my hand through this, I still need it. Thanks.

Hi Fredd, I upped my adb12 on Thursday to two tablets. On Friday I upped it to 3 tablets. Maybe it was too fast because I felt bad on Friday and Saturday which included some depression and hopelessness which I haven't experienced much since starting the B12s. Sunday my mood was much better and less fatigue. I want to try the 10 tablets of mb12 at some time but right now I need some better days and courage to be in a place that I can handle it. This is where I am at with the B12s:

2 B-Right
3 adb12
3 methylb12
1 Solgar folate

Today feels like a better day. Please continue to hold my hand through this, I still need it. Thanks.

Lena

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Hi Lena,

I want to try the 10 tablets of mb12 at some time but right now I need some better days and courage to be in a place that I can handle it.

I'd like to clarify the 50mg test dose. The purpose is to get information. After the body has reached saturation, and the daily dose can't be felt, and a couple of additional can't be felt either, then it is time to try the 50mg dose. I haven't met anybody yet that has had to "handle" that one. The effects are subtle and completely overwhelmed by body level effects if they are still happening. It's the only way I know of to find out if there is a CNS/CSF deficiency separate from the body deficiency. If a person has difficulty getting cobalamin into the csf then this test dose does that and a usually small difference is noticed. Many notice nothing at all. From the very limited research done so far there appears to be three groups of people; those who have trouble getting cobalamins into the csf, those who have trouble retaining it and those who have trouble at both ends of the deal, who as usual are the most impacted. So until you can't feel the daily dose at all and an increase makes no difference, and that is reached by everybody eventually, some take a lot longer than others, have patience. What it will tell you is just how much you could benefit from injections or whether sublinguals are entirely satisfactory. And if you can't get injections then an alternate route of administration. And before you reach that, the effects can be overwhelming and would need to be repeated anyway.

On the doses you are presently taking you should be getting into the area of diminishing effects from an increment in dose. Partly it is just ging it time for all the parts of the body to get "charged up" as it were. Something not actually done on 1x 1000mcg per week of cyanob12. At the present I have insufficient information to say whether the time it takes means anything at all except how well your body distributes b12 and maybe retains it.

For me it was a matter of gaining good minutes per day, then good hours and eventually good days. I started from the point where I could count good minutes per year, they were few and far between.

Just wanted to comment that there are HUGE forums of people out there discussing the adverse effects of Cipro and other flouroquinolones (Favc.info). I personally took Levaquin. Basically, these people, the worst affected ones, end up with CFS/fibromyalgia (or something that looks and feels just like it). Thus, I wanted to make you aware so you can decide on the use of these antibiotics in the future.

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I'm one also. Had Levaquin 750MG April 2008, Cipro 500MG June 2008, then shingles. Hasn't been the same since.

Hi Freddd, woke up feeling better but now I feel bad. Very dizzy and I just don't feel well. Since upping the adb12 five days ago I have felt worse, was having better days the last month compared to the last 4 or 5 days. I don't understand and am scared. I will not give up on these B12s. Yesterday I had a period of 3 hours of very dizzy. Then out of the blue it was better & I felt better for about one hour. I am trying to stay patient but just don't know if this is the process of getting better or if I am going to get better or if I do have a B12 deficiency. My negative thoughts are getting the better of me, I am sorry Freddd, I do appreciate what you are doing.

Hi Freddd, woke up feeling better but now I feel bad. Very dizzy and I just don't feel well. Since upping the adb12 five days ago I have felt worse, was having better days the last month compared to the last 4 or 5 days. I don't understand and am scared. I will not give up on these B12s. Yesterday I had a period of 3 hours of very dizzy. Then out of the blue it was better & I felt better for about one hour. I am trying to stay patient but just don't know if this is the process of getting better or if I am going to get better or if I do have a B12 deficiency. My negative thoughts are getting the better of me, I am sorry Freddd, I do appreciate what you are doing.

Lena

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Hi Lena,

Ups and downs and all arounds are quite normal in this recovery process. During neurological healing the effects are quite unpredictable except that they change constantly and frequently. The one thing that I have learned in all these years is that people who have no deficiency have no reactions at all. All my experience with various people indicates things that change get better.

Adb12 starts firing up the mitochondria including in the neurology. Mb12 affects the neurology itself, and with omega3 oils can heal the myelin which causes nerves to start working again, and neurotransmitters. The interplay and balance between these can cause all sorts of changes and disbalances as different things come up at different rates. I went through a whole lot of neurological healing and changes. Generally, as the changes occur, things tend to get a little better from cycle to cycle after the initial period.

HI all,
I just got back from spending the entire day in the Emergency Room with suspected pancreatitis. (It wasn't....it was the usual problem that I can't eat hardly any fat with 95% of my pancreas destroyed by Lyme, not even with the strongest prescription enzymes they make.) I am totally wiped out and very ill, so this will be short.

I just want to make sure everyone here who is not from one of the other boards where everyone knows my history understands that I am highly allergic to all antibiotics except fluroquinolones, so I have no choice. I am very aware of the risks, but that's all I've got on my plate. I avoid taking ABX unless it's very necessary, as I don't want to become allergic to the only one I have left. I've never had so much as the slightest side effect from them either, which is a good thing, considering the situation. My skin tests for all other classes of ABX were all 4+, the highest allergy you can have.

I am very happy for those of you who do have choices and glad you are so well informed of the dangers.

Hi Fredd, tomorrow I am going to the dr. to see if my liver enzymes are high. Years ago I had drug induced hepatitis and this is how I am feeling now. Nausea & dizziness. With all the people you help start up with the B12 did anyone have a problem with their liver. The only prescriptions I am on is Synthroid & Cytomel and xanax.

Fredd, thanks for your detailed descrip of your adb12 effects and their action in general, I really found it helpful as while I'm still getting euphoria I'm also getting no energy to speak of so right now any possible euphoria is overbalanced by a touch of despair. I also appreciate your clarifying that any reaction - pleasant or un- - indicates a deficiency. I was assuming that was the case but wondered how the more pleasant reactions evolved, you filled that info in nicely.

You mentioned you used to use Dilantin as a pain killer; I looked up what class of drug it is and that does make sense; an anticonvulsant seems like a much better choice for nerve pain than a conventional painkiller. Also thought it was interesting that folic acid deficiency is one of its side effects.

Klutzo, I'm sorry you've been having such a grueling time of it. Hope something that makes you laugh comes your way soon. To answer your question, I don't find I'm overburdened by munches at bedtime; the score stands at about marijuana oil: 2; nausea: 20. (By the way, I find acupuncture really has improved the quality of my sleep, it's more refreshing.)

Lena, sorry you are going through a bad time with this, hope you can hang in and thread your way through to the other side of this. Boy, one thing this illness teaches is patience and fortitude; I'm not sure I really want all that much character-building.

Jenbooks, please don't confuse my simplified-for-my-own-consumption statement with Freddd's elaboration - which may not be "proved" scientifically, but has apparently hundreds of successful results behind it, including his own.

I woke up this morning thinking about David's experience with fluoroquinones. Now these are drugs which have been "proven", but can cause serious debilitating illness. Plus, we have my own experience with discarding Ambien - another "proven" drug - on the basis of its side effects: in what UNIVERSE are liver damage, hallucinations, and increased insomnia considered acceptable side effects for chronic insomnia?

I really try not to be knee-jerk in my feelings about AMA medicine and chronic diseases, but it's important to keep this in mind: "proven" by what standards? Who devises the tests? What are they looking for? What are they leaving out? I used to index texts on lawsuits for medical damages, it really gives you pause for thought; these were not isolated instances of carelessness, they were about repeated damage from treatments and medications (e.g. breast cancer from mammogram radiation). As does the fact that many pharmaceuticals are tested by the pharmaceutical companies themselves, not outside neutral entities.

The research I know shows there is no permanent damage from B vitamins. An overdose OR underdose of B6 can cause nerve problems including issues with sleep, but these are entirely reversible when you correct the situation. What happened to David on fluoroquinones isn't.

Freddd, I recall dry corners of mouth being on the deficiency list. I never had that before, but am having it now. Known startup symptom? Dehydration?

David

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Hi David,

Sores at the corners of the mouth are. Check "angular chelitis". Those are a hallmark symptoms for folate deficiency. I'm not sure how "dry" fits into it. I have scars all over the corners from a lifetime of such sores. It is a pivot point symptom for me. If this is what it is, then it could come from an induced deficiency from healing. THey are part of the epithelial tissues which are strongly affected as they are generally rapidly reproducing. When I get dertiorated mb12 from too much light and it breaks down to hydroxyb12 I get acne within 3 days. Methylfolate is every bit as important in DNA replication as mb12. Historically there have been lots of warnings about induced deficiencies caused by taking only a couple of vitamins. Balance is important.