11 As an eagle that stirreth up her nest, hovereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her pinions--

and while it is meant allegorically, ain mikra yotzei miydei peshuto, and the mashal needs to make sense and be true before we get to the nimshal. Some connect it to the pasuk in parshat Yitro, in Shemot 19:4:

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

and again, this is meant to be allegorical, though there presumably should be some actual physical observable phenomenon of nesharim bearing things (such as young) on their wings, as a basis for this. And see Rashi and midrashim on this.

Could an eagle, or perhaps griffin-vulture, be big enough to lift a man, if we wanted to take the allegorical as absolutely literal? We wouldn't really expect birds so big.

Yet there is a giant, man-killing eagle, thought until just recently to be legendary, which survived until about 500 years ago, at which point it became extinct:

New research has confirmed that a giant man-eating bird long spoken of in legends actually existed.

And the Haast eagle was even bigger and more deadly than first thought, fulfilling the same role as the killer lions of Africa.

Each creature had a wingspan of three metres and weighed almost 20kg, making more than twice the size of the largest eagle that survives today.

"It was certainly capable of swooping down and taking a child," Paul Scofield, of Canterbury University in New Zealand, said.

This is not precisely the same as bearing a fully grown person on its wings, but it brings it more into the realm of imagined possibility. (Though there may well be scientific reasons that birds, including eagles and vultures, cannot get so large.)

I bring all this up because there is a Yerushalmi which seems to have a man riding on the back of a nesher, which is probably a griffin vulture.

Thus, according to Rabbi Yonah, when Alexander the Macedonian {the Great} wanted, he ascended up, until he saw the world like a ball and the sea like a plate. Because of this they depict him with a sphere in his hand, and a plate {/discus} in his hand.

So why do I say that Alexander ascended upon a nesher? Where does it state that in the Yerushalmi?! All it said was אלכסנדרוס מוקדון כד בעא מיסק לעיל והוה סלק וסלק סלק, but it did not mention the method by which he ascended! To answer, I got this from Pnei Moshe on the daf, who said that Alexander went up by nesher.

Pnei Moshe writes that he did something, and say on the nesher to raise himself above and to see the face of the earth, as it written in their Chronicles.

Thus, admittedly the Yerushalmi does not mention a nesher. But he recognizes that this maamar Chazal is likely citing Greek legend, and so he turns to Greek legend -- or perhaps if he believes it to be true and historical, Greek history -- and discovers that Alexander's ascent was by nesher.

But if we look at Greek legend, it does not seem to be an eagle or griffin-vulture by which Alexander ascends. Rather, it appears to be by griffin:

One legend involving griffins is the Ascension of Alexander the great. According to this story, Alexander captured a pair of griffins and, having starved them for three days, hitched them to his throne and, teasing them with chunks of roast beef held above their heads on lances, flew heavenward for seven days. Alexander would've stolen a peek at God Himself if an angel had not asked him why he wanted to see the things of heaven when he did not yet understand the things of earth. Chastised for his presumptuousness, Alexander flew back to earth. Representations of Alexander's ascension were placed in French and Italian cathedrals during the 12th century.

This is a fairly popular tale, and an old one. This museum website puts the emergence of the legend to 200 BCE, well before this statement in the Yerushalmi was written:

200 BC

Emergence of the legend of Alexander, in which Alexander of Macedonia flew in the company of some half-starved griffins to the end of the world. This theme turns up frequently (on exhibit in the Museum).

And here is an article (8+ MB PDF) tracing the history of this story as well as artwork about it. One interesting variant has a king using similar hunks of meat to make two griffins (or else eagles) carry his throne up high. (The picture to the right has Alexander using these hunks of meat.) Compare to the griffins on King Shlomo's throne, which brought him up.

If so, why does Pnei Moshe say nesher? Maybe he saw (or thought he saw) a variant of the popular legend, maybe he considers nesher an adequate translation of griffin, or perhaps he is rewriting it to be more plausible -- even though a human being lifted in this way by two eagles is not very plausible to me.

Aside from simply being an interesting Yerushalmi, or at least Pnei Moshe, if it refers to griffins or even to eagles lifting Alexander up, or even if it merely refers to a popular Greek legend, there might be some interesting things we can deduce about this Yerushalmi if we bring in eagles or griffin-vultures or griffins.

Specifically, this famous Yerushalmi shows a belief within Chazal in a round earth. There is, of course, another gemara in Bavli Chagiga, which strongly implies a flat earth. Did they intend this Yerushalmi literally, or is it an allegory? Even if literal, does it reflect Greek beliefs or Chazal's beliefs? Or both?

The whole point in the Yerushalmi of citing this legend is that those under Alexander's rule consider the world to be under Alexander's dominion -- though the continuation of the Yerushalmi challenges them on the accuracy of that statement. If the whole point is dominion, then the Yerushalmi does not necessarily have to actually maintain that Alexander ascended on high. Rather, they just need to believe that the Greeks believed that. And if the Greeks believed this, we can understand the statues with the ball or plate in hand to have a specific meaning. And if is only the Greeks who believe this, this is no absolute evidence that "Chazal" believed in a spherical earth -- especially as there are certain other gemaras which seem to contradict this. Of course, sources in Bavli and Yerushalmi can readily contradict one another, because Chazal are not monolithic.

But even before getting to that point, I have to wonder whether Chazal really believed the Greek legends about Alexander's ascent on high, literally. While it is nice that Chazal get some contemporary science right, it would be a shame if they believed it because they believed in some implausible nonsense about Alexander riding up to the heavens on eagles or griffins.

Given that he ascended upon a nesher, and a nesher is often a symbol of power (king of the birds, much like the lion as the king of the beasts), and given that a griffin is a combination of two kingly beasts (griffin-vulture/eagle + lion) all of this might be a further allegory for Alexander's dominion. Even if allegory, of course, details of what he saw might be based on scientific knowledge of the world. And so if he would see the world, they would describe the world as a sphere.

In sum, this is an interesting Yerushalmi not just for its references to a spherical earth. Pnei Moshe's suggestion is bold, in that he is willing to fill in details from Greek legends. His suggestion seems quite plausible, given the history of this story. And I wonder whether even as Greek legend, the griffin was intended allegorically.

Rabbi Slifkin discusses griffins in his Sacred Monsters. While he does not address this Yerushalmi in particular, he does discuss some of the royal aspects of the griffin in the context of certain midrashim.

First of all, The Yerushalmi doesn't mention how Alexander went up, so you can't just assume that for one the Gemora is talking about griffins or eagles and two they took that literally. You can say that about the Pnei Moshe but not on the Gemorah. Also its difficult to compare the Yerushalmi and the legend of Alexander going up to heaven. In my opinion they are pretty different in terms of both content and perspective. One is talking about Alexanders spiritual might, and the Gemorah is referring to his physical prowess.

Second of all, I am also unsure if the Yerushalmi is actually talking about a spherical earth. When it writes that the ocean is like a platter, I would assume that the gemora is talking about a flat surface. If so, then how could the earth then be spherical. If both the land and the see are together and next to each other. Could the term "Olam" be referring to not Earth per se, but to the Universe, which (if i am accurate in my knowledge of the Ptolemaic universe) the ancients did see as spherical.

just to add to my response above, about my agreement with JRR, despite this, to tout the yerushalmi is evidence of Chazal's infallibility in science at the same time they believe in griffins lifting alexander up high is the "problem". of course, if one does not believe them to be infallible, this is not such a "problem". even so, understanding it as allegory in light of the meaning of the various symbols is still not impossible, and may well be plausible.

zb:I agree with much of what you said, but didn't elaborate because that wasn't the main topic of this post.

indeed, the strongest connection to be made is regarding Pnei Moshe. but given the Yerushalmi's referencing of the ascension of Alexander, Pnei Moshe's suggestion and assumption does not strike me as implausible -- that they were referring to the famous and consistent Greek legend. I agree that it is by no means a sure thing, but I do think that it is quite a credible possibility.

I haven't analyzed the Greek legend inside to draw conclusions about it -- whether it is indeed speaking about spiritual might. Given an ancient conception of actual physical heavens, that he ascends to heaven and sees and talks to angels need not be indicative of some spiritual might. and conclusions drawn from allegories can easily become subjective.

i also haven't seen the greek legend inside to know if they mention these details -- i think all we got was the summary. but maybe the full story has the detail of looking down at the earth and sea/ocean.

in terms of your second-of-all, i agree that the meaning of the Yerushalmi is unclear. on the one hand, besides suggesting that it is spherical, this is drawn from Greek legend and the Greeks indeed did think of the earth as a sphere, I think. They did have proofs that the earth was round, which is why it is so confounding that Chazal in Chagiga appear to assume a flat earth.

in terms of the sea like a platter, it might depend which sea. the common assumption is that by Sea what is meant is Okaynus, the Ocean. In which case it would have to surround the Earth (?dirt or globe?), perhaps, or maybe be part of Earth. But what if it were a reference to the Mediteranean Sea? Could it be one part of the general ball, and be platter-shaped?

I am not sure, and so agree that this is quite possibly not solid evidence for a round earth.

in terms of Olam as universe, the reason i am not persuaded is that it is put up against the Yam.

But at the end of the day, I don't know, and am just sharing an interesting Yerushalmi, Pnei Moshe, and parallel to Greek legend, which possibly should be part of the overall conversation about this gemara.

R' Waxman,Are you certain the Yerushalmi says Alexander saw the world as a ball, rather than the universe (or, technically, the firmament)? I don't really understand how one could visualize the world as a ball floating in the sea. However, the firmament idea would work well the the "solid dome" idea of Babylonian cosmology that R' Slifkin writes about. That is, the seas are a flat plate (which Hashem covers in part with land) in the center of a solid sphere (or hemisphere) containing the heavens, sun moon, stars, etc.

But if this is the case (and that's a big if), the Yerushalmi would appear to be suggesting that Alexander raised himself "me'al laraki'a" - a position traditionally reserved only for Hashem and ministering angels! So perhaps the Yerushalmi is not just saying Alexander had magic pets, but rather that he had special skills and/or favor from Hashem.

Alexander saw middle-earth as a ball, and the rivers like a coiled snake. This from the original. (I'll be posting this sometime later.) Given this, it seems unlikely to me that the intention is the universe.

I don't think he visualized it like a ball floating in the sea. Rather, the World like a ball, and the Sea -- perhaps the Mediterranean -- like a plate, within the ball.

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parshablog is published by (rabbi) josh waxman (joshwaxman [at] yahoo [dot] com), a grad student in Revel, a grad student in a Phd program in computer science at CUNY. i recently received semicha from RIETS. this blog is devoted to parsha as well as whatever it is i am currently learning.