Reuben Davis interview

This is an interview conducted on August 3, 1987, by Andrew Manis
with Reuben Davis, Commissioner of Health and Human Services of
Jefferson County. Mr. Davis is also a member of Bethel Baptist
Church formerly pastored by Mr. Fred Shuttlesworth. This
interview was conducted in Birmingham, Alabama by Andrew Manis.
ANDREW MANIS: Mr. Davis, could you give me some background on
yourself? How long have you been in Birmingham, your basic
background?
MR. DAVIS: Well, I have lived in Birmingham all my life. In
fact lIve never had a legal address that didn't include Jefferson
County. Within five miles of where I am today I was born. I
served in the United States Navy from 1943 to 1945. That was the
longest time I have ever been away from Birmingham. That was my
tour of duty in the United States Navy during World War II. I've
been a member of Bethel Baptist Church since I was a lad of about
seven years old. I was baptized in that church. I've never had
membership in any other church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell be about your parents and your general
upbringing.
MR. DAVIS: Well, as I said I was born within about five blocks
from the church and my father worked for the Land N Railroad
Company for I guess about forty years. In fact he started
working for the company about eight months before I was born. I
later started working for the Land N Railroad Company and worked
there for about twelve years. My dad was a member of Bethel
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Baptist Church and he became a deacon in the church and later
superintendent of the Sunday school in which he served for forty
years. The first pastor that I remember was Reverend Sears ,
Reverend M. Sears. He was the pastor that bapti zed me and l ater
when he passed we had another pastor named Gamble, then Reverend
Lasseter, then Reverend Provitt , then Reverend Shuttlesworth. I
mean after Reverend Gamble came Reverend Lasseter then Reverend
Shuttlesworth. Provitt was after Shuttl esworth.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little bit more about the background of
Bethel Baptist Church . What do you remember as you were growing
up in the church , the basic character of the church, any changes
that have occurred?
MR. DAVIS: Bethel Baptist Church, in my opinion , was the leading
church in the Black community in Birmingham, maybe second to 16th
Street Baptist Church . At that time Reverend Goodgame was the
pastor. The reason I state that is because we had our
educational building under one roof. We had areas for Sunday
School that had a large area in the basement. The Sunday School
assembled in the basement after we had our classes and a lot of
space in the church separated from the sanctuary . Reverend Sears
designed the church and it was an outstanding church -- leading
church in North Birmingham in particular but I feel it was the
leading church in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: And your pastors , you mentioned some of those.
What would you say were some of the s i milarities between earlier
pastors and Reverend Shuttlesworth?
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MR. DAVIS: Well , as a small child, the outstanding pastor that
lingers in my mind was Reverend Sears. Coming up in Collegeville
the minister was always someone that everyone looked up to as
more or less the leader of the Black community and certainly "the
recognition was outstanding. It was a major factor in the
community but after Reverend Sears, it appeared the graces of his
church seemed to dwindle. We didn 't have a pastor that lasted
very long because Reverend Gamble was there for just a few years
and after Reverend Gamble, Reverend Lasseter . And then in a few
years Reverend Lasseter died and then Reverend Shuttlesworth
came . But the strange thing about Reverend Shuttlesworth , when
we -- after -- a committee was set to find a pastor and I was
working at the Land N Railroad Company at the time and a
gentleman that worked for Land N by the name of Mr. Morris had
mentioned to me that he had a young minister that he would like
for me to present to the church . At that time I think Mr . Morris
married into Reverend Shuttlesworth ' s family . So I brought
Reverend Shuttlesworth ' s name to the committee to permit him to
come before the congregation, you know, to introduce him to the
congregation and that was the way he was eventually accepted.
ANDREW MANIS: You were not a part of that committee?
MR. DAVIS: No, I was a young man. Just a member of the church.
The committee was chaired by the deacons of the church and Mr .
William Thornton, who is passed now, but he was the chairman of
that committee.
ANDREW MANIS: Now you mentioned Reverend Sears being active in
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the community.
MR. DAVIS: That's right.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you mean by that? What was involved in
his activities in the community?
MR. DAVIS: Reverend Sears was a natural leader. He had
influence in government even at that time and he was just a
person that the community recognized as a leader. And Bethel
Baptist Church being the largest Black church in North Birmingham
at that time, certainly he was a recognized leader in the Black
community.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall his, Reverend Sears now, do you
remember his ever making any outright statements about fighting
segregation?
MR. DAVIS: No, that wasn't a popular statement to be made at
that time. But I do recall some years ago there was what
appeared to be a communist move that came to North Birmingham and
these people wanted to be in our church -- I just can remember
this. I was a little boy_ But Reverend Sears wanted to get rid
of them so he got a shotgun and had them come -- made them leave
the church. So he had his directions I would say and he was
planning to protect his membership but he certainly did not
permit this organization which some gentleman wrote on this was a
communistic inspired group to invade the membership of Bethel
Baptist Church. Reverend Sears didn't let that happen.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little more about how Reverend
Shuttlesworth was first received in the church. As I recall the
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church had already called someone and was in the process of
calling a Reverend Martin. Is that right?
MR. DAVIS: That's right.
ANDREW MANIS: And then Reverend Shuttlesworth came, apparently
winning over the congregation . Can you recall anything about
that change of heart on the part of the committee?
MR. DAVIS: Well, Reverend Shuttlesworth had an excellent
personality and had a family , a wife and I think about three or
four children at the time and I think that was a setting that the
church felt they would be secure that a minister that had a
family was going to be permanent as pastor of our church.
ANDREW MANIS: Little did you know you were going to be getting a
Civil Rights preacher.
MR. DAVIS: No, I don ' t think that was in the making. I don't
think that was Reverend Shuttlesworth's interest in coming to
Birmingham. That was a condition that developed from the results
of what happened otherwise.
ANDREW MANIS: what do you think were his particular interests in
coming to Birmingham, or more specifically to Bethel?
MR. DAVIS: Well, simply for the opportunity to have a major
church -- to pastor a major church . Ministers normally -- Bethel
was considered a Class A church and certainly he would want to be
identified with that type of setting. I hadn't -- there was no
indication, no trends to give any reason for anyone to believe
that he came in mind with an activity for Civil Rights.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think that would -- do you think if the
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church had known about that ahead of time that they would stil l
have been interested in Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MR. DAVIS: I think that any chu rch , any organi zation or Baptist
church would have been interested i n Reverend Shuttlesworth as a
pastor . He was just a dynamic leader .
ANDREW MANIS: What do you t hink were his goals for the church
once he became pastor if you can answer that?
MR. DAVIS: Well, if you ' re understanding the nature of a Baptist
church and a Black fami l y , his goals were more or less to just
teach Christi an princi p l es -- Chri sti an doctri ne -- and to
maintain re l at i onship in the church in a traditional manner .
There was no o t her purpose , and then to marry the young and bury
the dead. That was a l l .
ANDREW MANIS : Let me ask you about Reverend Shuttlesworth's
preaching. Can you describe h i s preaching in any way -- his
style?
MR. DAVIS : Well , Reverend Shuttlesworth was a very gifted , a
very talented man. He coul d th i nk faster on his feet than any
man I ever met . In other words , he had a unique abil i ty for
remembering names and te l ephone numbers . He coul d cal l telephone
numbers and first names. He practi cally knew the whole
congregation by the f i rst name . So he was an outstanding l eader .
As far as his gift to preach , he was able to maintain
i ns t ructiona l educati onal Christ ian program at the church and in
the community and t he community was proud of tha t .
ANDREW MANIS : Let me back up a second and ask -- you talked
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about his memory and his ability to remember names. How large
was the membership during Reverend Shuttlesworthls years?
MR. DAVIS: I would estimate about 700 members -- maybe 700 or
800 members. That has been the capacity in our church.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any sort of pet scripture texts that
Shuttlesworth preached from regularly or often?
MR . DAVIS: No, the only thing I would just roughly say that he
was more or less just a conventional minister -- a Baptist
minister and that is traditional. There was no particular area.
The thing that is foremost in my mind, I enjoyed all of his
services. He loved music and he loved to have his choir. He was
very disciplinarian. He demanded that children be orderly and he
demanded that people accept responsibilities.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particularly memorable sermons?
MR . DAVIS: Not particular, no.
ANDREW MANIS: Now on his preaching about Civil Rights, to use
his phrases, fighting segregation, when did he start doing that
talking about fighting segregation in sermons on Sunday? Did
he do that often?
MR. DAVIS: No , the struggle of Civil Rights started I guess
about the same time that the issue in Montgomery started. I
guess it was the straw that broke the camelis back when Ms. Parks
rode the bus in Montgomery. She took a seat. Montgomery was
different than Birmingham. My grandparents were there and I
would be down there quite often. In Montgomery the buses were
going into Black communities. Buses were set aside for Blacks
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and there was no problem. I don't know why the driver on this
particular occasion decided he wanted to insist that Ms . Parks
get in the back. That spark ignited a situation -- the magnitude
of that still hasn ' t settled yet. Because there was no threat to
violate segregation laws until this time. As I say, I have lived
in Birmingham all my life and I have always recognized the law
and order and things class i fied as white , I mean Black. I went
to toilets designated for Bl ack . I sat behind the bar or what
not. I took that . But somehow, as I said, this was an issue
that should not have happened. Had it not happened I don ' t know
what it would be like today. That was a matter of fact .
ANDREW MANIS: As far as your own background is concerned, you
mentioned you accepted the segregation arrangements as a matter
of fact. Did you have a growing sense of discomfort with those
and particularly after serving in the Navy in the war?
MR. DAVIS: Well , I had some problems . In other words I came up
in Birmingham and that and I graduated from Parker High School
and started working for the railroad company. Went into the
service and after I came back, then I began to have interest in
acquiring skills to better my condition. The one thing that
inspired me to look at change, I never thought that I was no
better than anyone else and yet I never thought that anyone was
better than I was. I was working at the Land N at the time.
The foreman of the machine shop, his name was Mr. McCoy. There
is always a title of "Mr . " to a white person. That was accepted
and that was carried out. But a mistake was made. Mr. Mulvaney?
8
I was operating a little tractor and Mr. Mulvaney, the foreman
of the round house, sent me to the machine shop to get a piece of
equipment. And so he told me in just common terms , he said,
"Davis, go to the machine shop and tell Wade Bradley to send me a
14 inch wrench." I made the mistake of not saying "Mr." And so
I got on my little scooter car and went down to the machine shop.
The first gentleman I saw, he was operating a lathe. I asked him
could he tell me where I could find Wade Bradley. He acted as if
he didn't hear me. So I asked him again "Sir, can you tell me
where I can find Wade Bradley?" He l ooked at me and said, "You
mean Mr. Bradley don't you ." I said, "You heard what I said."
He grabbed a wrench as if he were going to strike me with that
wrench . I just braced myself because I didn't mean any harm
saying that but he took it as being offensive. As the result of
that I realized then we had a problem. Mr. McCoy, foreman of the
machine shop, as I approached him one day he said , "Davis!" I
said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Are you Nathan's boy?" I said,
"Yes, sir." He said, "If you make me as good a boy as Nathan
did, you 'll be all right." My dad had worked in that machine
shop as a laborer and I was working as a laborer but I wanted to
operate a lathe. It was a laborer ' s job. I had to sweep that
machine shop and pick up the trash and it was a continuous
process. I didn't mind doing that because I needed the job but I
felt that I could be more efficient to the company as a machinist
and so when I went in the service and came back I put in an
application for a machinist job. That was before the Civil
9
Rights struggle, before the Montgomery Boycott , and what not but
the company eventually fired me because I had asked for this job
as a machinist . The government had sent me to Tuskegee to be
tested to find out if I could really qualify as a machinist and I
passed the test. The Federal Government was also guilty of
discrimination because even in the war Black men had to fight for
a right to fight for their country and they segregated in the
Navy . I was in the Navy. The Black sailors and the white
sailors were separate units and separate facilities and so it was
just turmoil all the way around. But when I got back I was the
first Black to file a suit in Jefferson County in Federal Court.
In fact, Judge [Seybourn] Lynn -- I was the first Black man to
have a federal case in Judge Lynn's court. That was back in
1945. The company fired me. Later I started working at the Post
Office and I resigned the Post Office and started teaching
school. They finally fired me from teaching school. I went to
Federal Court and won that. But I won both of those jobs back.
When the company fired me they said that I was guilty of
insubordination. And so it took me three years to prove that I
wasn 't guilty of insubordination so they had to reinstate me. I
later resigned from the railroad.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So when Reverend Shuttlesworth came and began
to get caught up in the events he quickly began to address this
issue in Sunday sermons?
MR. DAVIS: Oh yes. Well , Birmingham was a prime area.
Birmingham was unlike any other place in the Southeast I think
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because in Calera Blacks and whites lived together. I had known
people living in Calera. In other parts of the State and in
Montgomery there was no race problem at all. But in Birmingham
we had rigid police officers that were known as Redcars that
would go into the Black communities and I've seen police officers
call Black males in particular, and wind the door glass up on his
neck and hit him up side the head. That created fear. In other
words, fear was on the minds of all Black young males,
particularly about police officers. There was no secure feeling.
ANDREW MANIS: Why do you think Birmingham was different?
MR. DAVIS: I've never been able to understand that. But my dad
bought property on 27th Avenue. That was a paved street, the
only paved street in Collegeville. The only one. Black
homeowners on 27th Avenue were made to pay for street
improvements to benefit white business concerns and during the
Christmas holidays we would be out in the street skating. When
police officers would show up we'd run like we had broke in the
bank even though we had done nothing wrong. That was just the
way it was. And so when Reverend Shuttlesworth found the
condition in Birmingham, where Bull Connor at that time was head
of the public safety and they had rigid laws so Reverend
Shuttlesworth was determined to violate those laws.
ANDREW MANIS: When he began to advocate breaking those laws how
did the people in the church respond?
MR. DAVIS: They supported it.
ANDREW MANIS: I find it curious that after years of pastors who
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didn't openly advocate fighting segregation, to be sure that the
events of the boycott and the Supreme Court probably had a good
deal to do with it. Is there anything else that would have made
it possible for Shuttlesworth's message about segregation to find
a responsive ground at [the church]?
MR. DAVIS: Well, one thing foremost in my mind was the fact that
Black leadership in my opinion was not sensitive to Black causes.
And what I have reference to -- the history of the Black minister
goes way back and maybe in a comical way if I would describe it,
I would say that the very first Black minister was made by the
southern white plantation owners. At one time, according to
history, Blacks and whites went to church together. The Blacks
were in the balcony and the white families were in the other part
of the church. But Black people being emotional -- very highly
emotional people -- so the whites thought that it was time to
separate that, so I imagine the first Black minister was
appointed and I believe they were appointed depending upon their
ability to cooperate with power establishment, so to speak. That
trend lasted even till this day to some extent because the
National Baptist Convention did not accept Dr. Martin Luther
King, and Reverend Shuttlesworth was rejected by a lot of
ministers in the Birmingham area. But he was supported 100% by
Bethel Baptist church members and the bulk of the Black people.
Of course that was the difference you see -- the difference in
Black leadership being sensitive to conditions related to Black
people was new. It probably didn't exist.
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ANDREW MANIS: Tell me something about Reverend Shuttlesworth's
family relationships -- about his wife, his kids and what kind of
father he was from what you could see.
MR. DAVIS: From what I could see he was a well -- a very strong
parent and very sensitive to the development of his children.
You see, when he left our church his children were just beginning
to enter into the latter part of teens. But coming up, they came
up with my children. His wife taught kindergarten. She taught
my children in kindergarten class. This was a strong family, no
question about that.
ANDREW MANIS: Considering the founding of the Alabama Christian
Movement for Human Rights, was there the strong support by the
membership of Bethel Church?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yes.
ANDREW MANIS: You said, 100%. What about involvement in the
Movement? Were you a member of the Movement? Did you go to mass
meetings?
MR. DAVIS:: Oh, yes. I went to mass meetings and also had to
guard the church around the property -- the pastor's parsonage
and the church -- after the struggle started each Monday night
that they would have meetings you couldn't get in the church
unless you went early. This was just a common thing. Everybody
looked forward to that.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you go every Monday night? Were you a regular
attender?
MR. DAVIS: I didn't go every Monday night. I'm sure I didn't go
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every Monday night but I certainly was interested in going. It
was a citywide situation and I actually had got in the church. A
strange thing happened -- the first time our church was bombed
it was bombed three times. But the first time it was bombed it
was Christmas Eve night. They always would bomb the church on a
Friday or Saturday night. There were three senior people that I
admired all my life -- my grandmother, Sabronia Williams and a
gentleman by the name of Charlie Watson was chairman of our
deacon board -- he was a strong admirer of Reverend
Shuttlesworth, and Mrs. Betsy Funderberg. Betsy at that time was
an elderly lady --she died when she was about ninety-something
years old. Brother Watson died when he was about 94 or 95 years
old but my grandmother lived to be about 110. But they were in
Sunday School that Sunday morning after the bombing. That told
me that the momentum of the church was moving, that whoever was
trying to disrupt that wasn't about to touch this sacred thing
because it never did stop it.
ANDREW MANIS: I want to get back to the bombing in a minute but
while I've got you on the subject, how well do you believe
Reverend Shuttlesworth balanced his responsibilities as pastor of
Bethel Church with his responsibilities as President of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
MR. DAVIS: Well, there's no question about it. That became out
of balance. At a time, and rightly so, he was bigger than
Bethel. He had become -- well, a leader in the Southeast and in
some instances on a national basis, because he would be visiting
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various places and was gone all the time so it came to a point
that he conducted his services at Bethel and he attended funerals
and marriages , but after a period of time when the issue really
got out and his name was broadside, then certainly you could see ,
I could feel that he was more involved in the political and Civil
Rights struggle than he was at Bethel?
ANDREW MANIS: Was there any significant level of dissati sfaction
in the church about that ?
MR. DAVIS: No, the church was proud of that . There was no
dissatisfaction .
ANDREW MANIS: Dissatisfaction that he was spending most of his
time . . . .
MR. DAVIS: Now I have never heard or entertained any idea from
anyone that said he was neglecting his responsibility as pastor
of the church but all of us were aware of the fact that he was
more than just pastor of Bethel Baptist Church.
ANDREW MANIS: This is going to be a very nuts and bolts kind of
question but what was the salary and the support , the financial
support that Bethel gave to Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MR . DAVIS: Well, not being an officer at the time, I am an
officer of the church now, but at that time I wasn ' t, I don ' t
know of a salary that we agreed to pay him. But I am sure that
he utilized church funds to his convenience and that could not
have been that much money because we didn't have any. So, it
wasn ' t the money • . . .
ANDREW MANIS: You wouldn't take a guess would you?
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MR. DAVIS: I would say at the time that he might have had a
salary of $75.00 a week.
ANDREW MANIS: To get back to the bombing, the bombing and a
number of other things I am going to name, I'm just going to ask
if you can respond, sort of whatever comes to your mind about
those events, reminiscences or other important events that
happened to you or that you know happened to Reverend
Shuttlesworth in conjunction with these events: the bombing, the
Christmas bombing i n 1956.
MR. DAVIS: Well, the Christmas bombing in 1956 was one that, I
think that the whole of Birmingham was shook up. That was the
first bombing. That was before Sixteenth Street and we had a
parsonage right next to the church, very closely connected to the
church. Reverend Shuttlesworth's family lived in the parsonage.
I guess the children were in the back part of the house but he
happened to have been in bed at the time that this happened. It
just tore that building up and -- there's no question about it
it was a miracle that he wasn't killed. There was no question
about it. It appeared that they were really trying to kill him.
But he didn't have a scratch on him. So I think that inspired
him more than any other one thing. Rather than frighten him, it
inspired him. That's one incident that I recall because I never
saw any bandages on him or anything of the kind. To see that
building and realize that he walked out of there without a
scratch on him was miraculous.
ANDREW MANIS: How did the church respond to that? What did they
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conclude from that?
MR. DAVIS: The church then -- I am certain that members realized
then that we had a problem. If you were to explain the
complexities as it relates to Black involvement, Black people
have been in need of leadership for a long time and individually,
I think that the System has selected who they wanted to fill
leadership positions and yet that has never satisfied the Black
community. That has prolonged the equities that should have
existed a long time ago. I think that Reverend Shuttlesworth was
one that wasn't chosen by the establishment as such, but he
attacked the establishment and that made Black people rally
behind him. Whereas they wouldn't have done it individually but
once it started, it was a rally.
ANDREW MANIS: Did his escaping from that bombing without a
scratch convince people, the Black community, generally that here
was a leader?
MR. DAVIS: Here was a leader. Here was a man that is determined
to be fair in this thinking and he is going to get us relief of
the problems.
ANDREW MANIS: Did the people have a sense that God's hand was on
him?
MR. DAVIS: That's exactly right. All that was figured into
that. From that we had integration of the schools. He came to
Phillips High School and a mob met him there. He was beaten with
chains. That still snowballed, created a snowball effect and
people began to give him credit for being a leader in the
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community.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall anything surrounding the arrest of
his children in Gadsden in 1960?
MR. DAVIS: I heard something about that. I don't recall any
details. But there was some type of a youth program. Strange as
it seems, at that time it was just a thing that you didn't see
whites and Blacks mingling together at all. That was a no no.
Somehow I recall --I heard them talk about that at the church,
about the children being at a summer camp up there and were with
some whites and were arrested. But I don't know any details
about that.
ANDREW MANIS: What are some of your most vivid recollections
about the big demonstrations in 1960 through 80, particularly
Reverend Shuttlesworth's role in all that?
MR. DAVIS: Well, as I said, Reverend Shuttlesworth was a man
that was never at a loss for words. He was very vocal and
determined and he said what the Black people wanted to hear him
say. He didn't back up and I've been in meetings where it was
just jam packed. There were just such crowds that you couldn't
get in the building. Yet they were all there. He brings that
kind of crowd now when he comes to Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: What were you doing in 1963?
MR. DAVIS: In 1963 I was working for the Bessemer Board of
Education and they fired me in 1970 because of my writing
editorial letters. You see there was something about the system
that never wanted a Black person to feel that he was a part of
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anything other than what they wanted him to have and I had an
unusual situation happen to me -- I mean most unusual. The first
Black person I worked under was a Black principal at Abrams High
School in Bessemer. I was very proud of that because I felt that
here I had worked under Mr. McCoy and Mr. Mulvaney at the
Land N Railroad Company and at the Post Office -- all white
supervisors. But here I was working for a Black man. I took
pride in that. The work gave me new directions. On one occasion
the Black principal, Mr. Walter Branch, had instructed me to take
pictures of the football team. He asked me to enroll on the
campus and at 12:00 take pictures of the football squad during a
championship game. The Birmingham News photographer was going to
be on the campus at the time. The principal telling me -- he was
the big man at the school there. I got the school camera and
went out and took pictures. I came in my classroom about five
minutes late. At that time the assistant superintendent was
white and his immediate supervisor, Mr. S. Porch, was white.
When I walked in with the camera Mr. Porch said, "Davis, where in
the hell have you been?" -- in those terms. That is what he
said, my class was still in the hallway. I said, "Mr. Porch, I
have been taking pictures of the football squad as I have been
instructed by the principal." So he told me I mean for you to
stay in the shop. So I said, "Mr. Porch, it I S no problem to stay
in the shop. You go up and tell Mr. Branch you want me to stay
in the shop. If it is his wish that I stay here, you have no
problem. Mr. Branch tells me [indistinguishable]." When I said
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that he put his hand up to my collar before my class. He said,
"I mean for you to stay in the shop." God had relieved me of all
hate back in 1945. Nobody could make me hate then. So when he
put his hand to my collar I knew he was off base as a young man
trying to teach young men. All Black young men had looked to me
for leadership. So I looked at him and I just happened to just
tell him, I said, "Man, take your filthy hands off me." Just
like that. I said, "Take your hands off me right now and I mean
that." At that time he dropped his hands and started shaking all
over. He was an elderly man. The assistant superintendent
walked up and said, "Porch, what's wrong? 11 I turned around and I
walked off. I went up the hallway to see the principal. The
principal was standing there in the hallway. I said, "Mr.
Branch, a few minutes ago Mr. Porch was handling my collar. I
don't particularly like that. That shocked me." That began my
editorial writings. I began -- my book at home -- I have a book
of editorial writings. He looked at me and never opened his
mouth, never moved his lips. He walked in his office and closed
the door in my face. Then I realized what a sad condition Black
people were in as far as leadership is concerned. Here is a
prinCipal of a high school that could not protect his own word.
He was the principal. He had told me to take those pictures. I
wasn't expecting him to do the front work for me. Just to say,
he COUld've told me, "Mr. Davis, I will attend to this." He
WOUldn't say one word. Then I realized that he was programmed
not to make any waves. And then I realized that we don't have
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leadership. He just didn't have it. And at that time Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a focal leader and then any Black person worth
his salt realized that if any Black man takes a leadership
position and speaksto the decencies of Black people then they are
worthy of recognition. That's what Reverend Shuttlesworth was.
ANDREW MANIS: What would say Reverend Shuttlesworth's most
significant influence on you was as your pastor?
MR. DAVIS: Well, there wasn't too much direct influence on me as
an individual. I respected him as my pastor. Because my goals
and interests wasn't social. My goals was economics. I don't
care anything about whether I sat at a counter or whether I go in
a motel. That didn't bother me at all. And I thought that the
whole movement was off base along that line. Because I had been
working trying to help Black men get jobs in the plants. That is
why I was fired from L & N and at Bessemer, because I addressed
issues. I wrote letters to editors concerning segregation and
that sort of thing. But there was a difference in my feelings
than Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth in relationship to the
movement. I felt it should have been strictly economics rather
than social. They were going after the social aspect of it and I
thought that was wrong.
ANDREW MANIS: What about Reverend Shuttlesworth's personal
relationships, his style? Were there people in the church who
felt that they had close relationships with Shuttlesworth?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yeah! He had a dynamic personality. No question
about that.
21
ANDREW MANIS: What about conflict? Was there any signifi cant
confl ict in the church between Reverend Shuttlesworth and other
members or officers of t he church?
MR. DAVIS: Well , I don ' t know how this came about but there was
a conflict as far as I was concerned . After I was made an
officer. I admired him as a leader as my pastor and as a
l eader . After he the dust began to settle in the Birmingham
area , after we we r e abl e to ride the bu ses , t he communi ty began
to tal k about the fact that he was going to leave and go to
Cincinnati . My being an officer - - not the only one but being on
the Board of Deacons it had never come before the Boar d that
the pastor was going t o Cincinnati . Yet there was street talk .
And so one Sunday morning , the pastor called the officers
together . He s i mpl y stated that he had been called to Cincinnati
to a larger church and that he was leaving in ninety days. After
he finished talking to the group , I menti oned to him , " Reverend,
inasmuch as you have accepted this church in Cincinnati, why take
n i nety days? We don ' t have a pastor. Are you sure this i s what
God wants you to do?" He said , "Oh , Br other Davis , I wil l be
here in Birmingham . " I said , "Then why take ninety days? " He
persi s t ed in being the past or at Bethel Bapti st Church for ninety
days. Well , that kind of hung in my mind . After all , i f he had
accepted a church in Ci ncinnati , this transition period , it would
maybe take up to nine t y days , if it takes that . I questi oned
that in my mind . I don ' t know whether any officer on the board
addressed that but after he had made the statement to the board,
22
the very next Sunday he was in Cincinnati and the next Sunday he
was at Bethel. Then the next Sunday, Cincinnati; then the next
Sunday, Bethel. So one Sunday morning I saw him and I said,
"Reverend, I would like to have a conference with you and the
board. He said, "Well, Davis, I will be out of town next Sunday.
When I get back we can talk about it, okay?" So when he got back
he said, "What do you want to talk about?" So I said, "What I
have to say is nothing personal. I just want to talk to you as a
member of this church." So he said, IIIf you can't tell me what
you want to talk about, there won't be no meeting." So I said,
"You don't give me no choice but to bring it before the church."
So the following Sunday morning during the announcement period,
after the announcements, I raised my hand to address the church
as he suggested. He was in the pulpit. So he didn't recognize
me. So my grandmother I had stood there. He had opened his
Bible and took a text. I raised my hand. And my grandmother was
sitting in the audience of the church. People were telling me to
sit down -- not to do that. I don't know how I couldn't move.
I was standing; I wanted to be heard. And so my grandmother came
up to try to pull me over but she didn't -- I just stood firm. I
didn't move, my dad came out of the choir to get his mother. So
he kind of pulled her a little bit and kind of stumbled. And the
church started mumbling. Reverend Shuttlesworth said, "Do you
all want to hear what he has to say?" They all said, "Yes. II So
I simply told him that -- I have those papers -- I believe I have
them at home now -- a statement requesting what I as an officer
23
was looking at for the church. Inasmuch that the pastor had been
called to Cincinnati, I felt that we should only pay him for the
time and services that he rendered rather than for him to be
receiving full salary at Bethel and full salary at Cincinnati. I
didn't think it was right. So I brought my little thesis before
the congregation and after I said what I wanted to say and he had
the kind of influence -- he asked them "all in favor of what he
said, raise your hand." Nobody raised their hand but I had said
what I had to say. That was the only confrontation I had with
him.
ANDREW MANIS: How would you respond to the characterization that
I have run across that Shuttlesworth was egotistical and
autocratic?
MR. DAVIS: Well, I would think that he had a kind of trend of
thinking that he wanted to control the thinking of people and
that he wanted to prove that he was worthy of it. He would
challenge anyone. I would just walk in there! It didn't bother
him about a challenge. And so I would think that was a part of
his physical makeup. But my interest was, at first, I was
seriously concerned as to whether he was deserting the cause that
he had started and that was my interest. But after I found out
that he had this church in Cincinnati and was going to keep both
of them going at the same time, then I felt that this was wrong.
ANDREW MANIS: He moved to the church in 1961, is that right?
MR. DAVIS: I don't recall the exact date. It was something like
that.
24
ANDREW MANIS: But he continued to come to Birmingham after he
had moved up there?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: What was the sense of Bethel Church when he
continued to be viewed as the leader of Birmingham?
MR. DAVIS: Yeah. NOw, see, what had happened there, I just
wanted to make sure see, at first, Reverend Shuttlesworth had
a type of influence on the church that he could have, if he had
forced it, had I not made the connotations I had, he would have
been, maybe using the church's property, the parsonage, the
church facilities at will and no one was going to stop him
because you don't have the type of people in the Baptist church
that would take a stand on an issue like this. I don't know why
I did. But I didn't have no choice. It was just a thing that I
had to address.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think Fred Shuttlesworth was at that time,
or is today, jealous of the notoriety of Martin Luther King?
MR. DAVIS: I feel, this is an opinion -- nothing but an opinion.
I feel that he feels that Dr. King -- that he deserved more than
he got out of it.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you agree with that?
MR. DAVIS: No, I don't agree.
ANDREW MANIS: Why not?
MR. DAVIS: Dr. King, in my opinion, was the only man that this
country ever produced that had the power to stir the souls of men
with his voice. Reverend Shuttlesworth can't do that. You see,
25
Dr. King, no person, Black, white or otherwise, could sit under
Dr. Martin Luther King and listen to him and not be moved. That
was the difference between the two. Reverend Shuttlesworth
didn't recognize that. I guess he thought that if he had the
guts enough to challenge Bull Connor, he should have been
accepted on a broader scale, but he wasn't like Dr. Martin Luther
King.
ANDREW MANIS: How do you think Fred Shuttlesworth should be
remembered?
MR. DAVIS: I think he should be remembered as a leader that had
a challenging responsibility and accepted it square and head-on.
There is no question about it. It took courage to do what he
did. He should be remembered in that manner.
ANDREW MANIS: Thank you, Mr. Davis. I appreciate your time.
26

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This is an interview conducted on August 3, 1987, by Andrew Manis
with Reuben Davis, Commissioner of Health and Human Services of
Jefferson County. Mr. Davis is also a member of Bethel Baptist
Church formerly pastored by Mr. Fred Shuttlesworth. This
interview was conducted in Birmingham, Alabama by Andrew Manis.
ANDREW MANIS: Mr. Davis, could you give me some background on
yourself? How long have you been in Birmingham, your basic
background?
MR. DAVIS: Well, I have lived in Birmingham all my life. In
fact lIve never had a legal address that didn't include Jefferson
County. Within five miles of where I am today I was born. I
served in the United States Navy from 1943 to 1945. That was the
longest time I have ever been away from Birmingham. That was my
tour of duty in the United States Navy during World War II. I've
been a member of Bethel Baptist Church since I was a lad of about
seven years old. I was baptized in that church. I've never had
membership in any other church.
ANDREW M. MANIS: Tell be about your parents and your general
upbringing.
MR. DAVIS: Well, as I said I was born within about five blocks
from the church and my father worked for the Land N Railroad
Company for I guess about forty years. In fact he started
working for the company about eight months before I was born. I
later started working for the Land N Railroad Company and worked
there for about twelve years. My dad was a member of Bethel
1
Baptist Church and he became a deacon in the church and later
superintendent of the Sunday school in which he served for forty
years. The first pastor that I remember was Reverend Sears ,
Reverend M. Sears. He was the pastor that bapti zed me and l ater
when he passed we had another pastor named Gamble, then Reverend
Lasseter, then Reverend Provitt , then Reverend Shuttlesworth. I
mean after Reverend Gamble came Reverend Lasseter then Reverend
Shuttlesworth. Provitt was after Shuttl esworth.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little bit more about the background of
Bethel Baptist Church . What do you remember as you were growing
up in the church , the basic character of the church, any changes
that have occurred?
MR. DAVIS: Bethel Baptist Church, in my opinion , was the leading
church in the Black community in Birmingham, maybe second to 16th
Street Baptist Church . At that time Reverend Goodgame was the
pastor. The reason I state that is because we had our
educational building under one roof. We had areas for Sunday
School that had a large area in the basement. The Sunday School
assembled in the basement after we had our classes and a lot of
space in the church separated from the sanctuary . Reverend Sears
designed the church and it was an outstanding church -- leading
church in North Birmingham in particular but I feel it was the
leading church in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: And your pastors , you mentioned some of those.
What would you say were some of the s i milarities between earlier
pastors and Reverend Shuttlesworth?
2
MR. DAVIS: Well , as a small child, the outstanding pastor that
lingers in my mind was Reverend Sears. Coming up in Collegeville
the minister was always someone that everyone looked up to as
more or less the leader of the Black community and certainly "the
recognition was outstanding. It was a major factor in the
community but after Reverend Sears, it appeared the graces of his
church seemed to dwindle. We didn 't have a pastor that lasted
very long because Reverend Gamble was there for just a few years
and after Reverend Gamble, Reverend Lasseter . And then in a few
years Reverend Lasseter died and then Reverend Shuttlesworth
came . But the strange thing about Reverend Shuttlesworth , when
we -- after -- a committee was set to find a pastor and I was
working at the Land N Railroad Company at the time and a
gentleman that worked for Land N by the name of Mr. Morris had
mentioned to me that he had a young minister that he would like
for me to present to the church . At that time I think Mr . Morris
married into Reverend Shuttlesworth ' s family . So I brought
Reverend Shuttlesworth ' s name to the committee to permit him to
come before the congregation, you know, to introduce him to the
congregation and that was the way he was eventually accepted.
ANDREW MANIS: You were not a part of that committee?
MR. DAVIS: No, I was a young man. Just a member of the church.
The committee was chaired by the deacons of the church and Mr .
William Thornton, who is passed now, but he was the chairman of
that committee.
ANDREW MANIS: Now you mentioned Reverend Sears being active in
3
the community.
MR. DAVIS: That's right.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you mean by that? What was involved in
his activities in the community?
MR. DAVIS: Reverend Sears was a natural leader. He had
influence in government even at that time and he was just a
person that the community recognized as a leader. And Bethel
Baptist Church being the largest Black church in North Birmingham
at that time, certainly he was a recognized leader in the Black
community.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall his, Reverend Sears now, do you
remember his ever making any outright statements about fighting
segregation?
MR. DAVIS: No, that wasn't a popular statement to be made at
that time. But I do recall some years ago there was what
appeared to be a communist move that came to North Birmingham and
these people wanted to be in our church -- I just can remember
this. I was a little boy_ But Reverend Sears wanted to get rid
of them so he got a shotgun and had them come -- made them leave
the church. So he had his directions I would say and he was
planning to protect his membership but he certainly did not
permit this organization which some gentleman wrote on this was a
communistic inspired group to invade the membership of Bethel
Baptist Church. Reverend Sears didn't let that happen.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little more about how Reverend
Shuttlesworth was first received in the church. As I recall the
4
church had already called someone and was in the process of
calling a Reverend Martin. Is that right?
MR. DAVIS: That's right.
ANDREW MANIS: And then Reverend Shuttlesworth came, apparently
winning over the congregation . Can you recall anything about
that change of heart on the part of the committee?
MR. DAVIS: Well, Reverend Shuttlesworth had an excellent
personality and had a family , a wife and I think about three or
four children at the time and I think that was a setting that the
church felt they would be secure that a minister that had a
family was going to be permanent as pastor of our church.
ANDREW MANIS: Little did you know you were going to be getting a
Civil Rights preacher.
MR. DAVIS: No, I don ' t think that was in the making. I don't
think that was Reverend Shuttlesworth's interest in coming to
Birmingham. That was a condition that developed from the results
of what happened otherwise.
ANDREW MANIS: what do you think were his particular interests in
coming to Birmingham, or more specifically to Bethel?
MR. DAVIS: Well, simply for the opportunity to have a major
church -- to pastor a major church . Ministers normally -- Bethel
was considered a Class A church and certainly he would want to be
identified with that type of setting. I hadn't -- there was no
indication, no trends to give any reason for anyone to believe
that he came in mind with an activity for Civil Rights.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think that would -- do you think if the
5
church had known about that ahead of time that they would stil l
have been interested in Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MR. DAVIS: I think that any chu rch , any organi zation or Baptist
church would have been interested i n Reverend Shuttlesworth as a
pastor . He was just a dynamic leader .
ANDREW MANIS: What do you t hink were his goals for the church
once he became pastor if you can answer that?
MR. DAVIS: Well, if you ' re understanding the nature of a Baptist
church and a Black fami l y , his goals were more or less to just
teach Christi an princi p l es -- Chri sti an doctri ne -- and to
maintain re l at i onship in the church in a traditional manner .
There was no o t her purpose , and then to marry the young and bury
the dead. That was a l l .
ANDREW MANIS : Let me ask you about Reverend Shuttlesworth's
preaching. Can you describe h i s preaching in any way -- his
style?
MR. DAVIS : Well , Reverend Shuttlesworth was a very gifted , a
very talented man. He coul d th i nk faster on his feet than any
man I ever met . In other words , he had a unique abil i ty for
remembering names and te l ephone numbers . He coul d cal l telephone
numbers and first names. He practi cally knew the whole
congregation by the f i rst name . So he was an outstanding l eader .
As far as his gift to preach , he was able to maintain
i ns t ructiona l educati onal Christ ian program at the church and in
the community and t he community was proud of tha t .
ANDREW MANIS : Let me back up a second and ask -- you talked
6
about his memory and his ability to remember names. How large
was the membership during Reverend Shuttlesworthls years?
MR. DAVIS: I would estimate about 700 members -- maybe 700 or
800 members. That has been the capacity in our church.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any sort of pet scripture texts that
Shuttlesworth preached from regularly or often?
MR . DAVIS: No, the only thing I would just roughly say that he
was more or less just a conventional minister -- a Baptist
minister and that is traditional. There was no particular area.
The thing that is foremost in my mind, I enjoyed all of his
services. He loved music and he loved to have his choir. He was
very disciplinarian. He demanded that children be orderly and he
demanded that people accept responsibilities.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particularly memorable sermons?
MR . DAVIS: Not particular, no.
ANDREW MANIS: Now on his preaching about Civil Rights, to use
his phrases, fighting segregation, when did he start doing that
talking about fighting segregation in sermons on Sunday? Did
he do that often?
MR. DAVIS: No , the struggle of Civil Rights started I guess
about the same time that the issue in Montgomery started. I
guess it was the straw that broke the camelis back when Ms. Parks
rode the bus in Montgomery. She took a seat. Montgomery was
different than Birmingham. My grandparents were there and I
would be down there quite often. In Montgomery the buses were
going into Black communities. Buses were set aside for Blacks
7
and there was no problem. I don't know why the driver on this
particular occasion decided he wanted to insist that Ms . Parks
get in the back. That spark ignited a situation -- the magnitude
of that still hasn ' t settled yet. Because there was no threat to
violate segregation laws until this time. As I say, I have lived
in Birmingham all my life and I have always recognized the law
and order and things class i fied as white , I mean Black. I went
to toilets designated for Bl ack . I sat behind the bar or what
not. I took that . But somehow, as I said, this was an issue
that should not have happened. Had it not happened I don ' t know
what it would be like today. That was a matter of fact .
ANDREW MANIS: As far as your own background is concerned, you
mentioned you accepted the segregation arrangements as a matter
of fact. Did you have a growing sense of discomfort with those
and particularly after serving in the Navy in the war?
MR. DAVIS: Well , I had some problems . In other words I came up
in Birmingham and that and I graduated from Parker High School
and started working for the railroad company. Went into the
service and after I came back, then I began to have interest in
acquiring skills to better my condition. The one thing that
inspired me to look at change, I never thought that I was no
better than anyone else and yet I never thought that anyone was
better than I was. I was working at the Land N at the time.
The foreman of the machine shop, his name was Mr. McCoy. There
is always a title of "Mr . " to a white person. That was accepted
and that was carried out. But a mistake was made. Mr. Mulvaney?
8
I was operating a little tractor and Mr. Mulvaney, the foreman
of the round house, sent me to the machine shop to get a piece of
equipment. And so he told me in just common terms , he said,
"Davis, go to the machine shop and tell Wade Bradley to send me a
14 inch wrench." I made the mistake of not saying "Mr." And so
I got on my little scooter car and went down to the machine shop.
The first gentleman I saw, he was operating a lathe. I asked him
could he tell me where I could find Wade Bradley. He acted as if
he didn't hear me. So I asked him again "Sir, can you tell me
where I can find Wade Bradley?" He l ooked at me and said, "You
mean Mr. Bradley don't you ." I said, "You heard what I said."
He grabbed a wrench as if he were going to strike me with that
wrench . I just braced myself because I didn't mean any harm
saying that but he took it as being offensive. As the result of
that I realized then we had a problem. Mr. McCoy, foreman of the
machine shop, as I approached him one day he said , "Davis!" I
said, "Yes, sir." He said, "Are you Nathan's boy?" I said,
"Yes, sir." He said, "If you make me as good a boy as Nathan
did, you 'll be all right." My dad had worked in that machine
shop as a laborer and I was working as a laborer but I wanted to
operate a lathe. It was a laborer ' s job. I had to sweep that
machine shop and pick up the trash and it was a continuous
process. I didn't mind doing that because I needed the job but I
felt that I could be more efficient to the company as a machinist
and so when I went in the service and came back I put in an
application for a machinist job. That was before the Civil
9
Rights struggle, before the Montgomery Boycott , and what not but
the company eventually fired me because I had asked for this job
as a machinist . The government had sent me to Tuskegee to be
tested to find out if I could really qualify as a machinist and I
passed the test. The Federal Government was also guilty of
discrimination because even in the war Black men had to fight for
a right to fight for their country and they segregated in the
Navy . I was in the Navy. The Black sailors and the white
sailors were separate units and separate facilities and so it was
just turmoil all the way around. But when I got back I was the
first Black to file a suit in Jefferson County in Federal Court.
In fact, Judge [Seybourn] Lynn -- I was the first Black man to
have a federal case in Judge Lynn's court. That was back in
1945. The company fired me. Later I started working at the Post
Office and I resigned the Post Office and started teaching
school. They finally fired me from teaching school. I went to
Federal Court and won that. But I won both of those jobs back.
When the company fired me they said that I was guilty of
insubordination. And so it took me three years to prove that I
wasn 't guilty of insubordination so they had to reinstate me. I
later resigned from the railroad.
ANDREW M. MANIS: So when Reverend Shuttlesworth came and began
to get caught up in the events he quickly began to address this
issue in Sunday sermons?
MR. DAVIS: Oh yes. Well , Birmingham was a prime area.
Birmingham was unlike any other place in the Southeast I think
10
because in Calera Blacks and whites lived together. I had known
people living in Calera. In other parts of the State and in
Montgomery there was no race problem at all. But in Birmingham
we had rigid police officers that were known as Redcars that
would go into the Black communities and I've seen police officers
call Black males in particular, and wind the door glass up on his
neck and hit him up side the head. That created fear. In other
words, fear was on the minds of all Black young males,
particularly about police officers. There was no secure feeling.
ANDREW MANIS: Why do you think Birmingham was different?
MR. DAVIS: I've never been able to understand that. But my dad
bought property on 27th Avenue. That was a paved street, the
only paved street in Collegeville. The only one. Black
homeowners on 27th Avenue were made to pay for street
improvements to benefit white business concerns and during the
Christmas holidays we would be out in the street skating. When
police officers would show up we'd run like we had broke in the
bank even though we had done nothing wrong. That was just the
way it was. And so when Reverend Shuttlesworth found the
condition in Birmingham, where Bull Connor at that time was head
of the public safety and they had rigid laws so Reverend
Shuttlesworth was determined to violate those laws.
ANDREW MANIS: When he began to advocate breaking those laws how
did the people in the church respond?
MR. DAVIS: They supported it.
ANDREW MANIS: I find it curious that after years of pastors who
11
didn't openly advocate fighting segregation, to be sure that the
events of the boycott and the Supreme Court probably had a good
deal to do with it. Is there anything else that would have made
it possible for Shuttlesworth's message about segregation to find
a responsive ground at [the church]?
MR. DAVIS: Well, one thing foremost in my mind was the fact that
Black leadership in my opinion was not sensitive to Black causes.
And what I have reference to -- the history of the Black minister
goes way back and maybe in a comical way if I would describe it,
I would say that the very first Black minister was made by the
southern white plantation owners. At one time, according to
history, Blacks and whites went to church together. The Blacks
were in the balcony and the white families were in the other part
of the church. But Black people being emotional -- very highly
emotional people -- so the whites thought that it was time to
separate that, so I imagine the first Black minister was
appointed and I believe they were appointed depending upon their
ability to cooperate with power establishment, so to speak. That
trend lasted even till this day to some extent because the
National Baptist Convention did not accept Dr. Martin Luther
King, and Reverend Shuttlesworth was rejected by a lot of
ministers in the Birmingham area. But he was supported 100% by
Bethel Baptist church members and the bulk of the Black people.
Of course that was the difference you see -- the difference in
Black leadership being sensitive to conditions related to Black
people was new. It probably didn't exist.
12
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me something about Reverend Shuttlesworth's
family relationships -- about his wife, his kids and what kind of
father he was from what you could see.
MR. DAVIS: From what I could see he was a well -- a very strong
parent and very sensitive to the development of his children.
You see, when he left our church his children were just beginning
to enter into the latter part of teens. But coming up, they came
up with my children. His wife taught kindergarten. She taught
my children in kindergarten class. This was a strong family, no
question about that.
ANDREW MANIS: Considering the founding of the Alabama Christian
Movement for Human Rights, was there the strong support by the
membership of Bethel Church?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yes.
ANDREW MANIS: You said, 100%. What about involvement in the
Movement? Were you a member of the Movement? Did you go to mass
meetings?
MR. DAVIS:: Oh, yes. I went to mass meetings and also had to
guard the church around the property -- the pastor's parsonage
and the church -- after the struggle started each Monday night
that they would have meetings you couldn't get in the church
unless you went early. This was just a common thing. Everybody
looked forward to that.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you go every Monday night? Were you a regular
attender?
MR. DAVIS: I didn't go every Monday night. I'm sure I didn't go
13
every Monday night but I certainly was interested in going. It
was a citywide situation and I actually had got in the church. A
strange thing happened -- the first time our church was bombed
it was bombed three times. But the first time it was bombed it
was Christmas Eve night. They always would bomb the church on a
Friday or Saturday night. There were three senior people that I
admired all my life -- my grandmother, Sabronia Williams and a
gentleman by the name of Charlie Watson was chairman of our
deacon board -- he was a strong admirer of Reverend
Shuttlesworth, and Mrs. Betsy Funderberg. Betsy at that time was
an elderly lady --she died when she was about ninety-something
years old. Brother Watson died when he was about 94 or 95 years
old but my grandmother lived to be about 110. But they were in
Sunday School that Sunday morning after the bombing. That told
me that the momentum of the church was moving, that whoever was
trying to disrupt that wasn't about to touch this sacred thing
because it never did stop it.
ANDREW MANIS: I want to get back to the bombing in a minute but
while I've got you on the subject, how well do you believe
Reverend Shuttlesworth balanced his responsibilities as pastor of
Bethel Church with his responsibilities as President of the
Alabama Christian Movement?
MR. DAVIS: Well, there's no question about it. That became out
of balance. At a time, and rightly so, he was bigger than
Bethel. He had become -- well, a leader in the Southeast and in
some instances on a national basis, because he would be visiting
14
various places and was gone all the time so it came to a point
that he conducted his services at Bethel and he attended funerals
and marriages , but after a period of time when the issue really
got out and his name was broadside, then certainly you could see ,
I could feel that he was more involved in the political and Civil
Rights struggle than he was at Bethel?
ANDREW MANIS: Was there any significant level of dissati sfaction
in the church about that ?
MR. DAVIS: No, the church was proud of that . There was no
dissatisfaction .
ANDREW MANIS: Dissatisfaction that he was spending most of his
time . . . .
MR. DAVIS: Now I have never heard or entertained any idea from
anyone that said he was neglecting his responsibility as pastor
of the church but all of us were aware of the fact that he was
more than just pastor of Bethel Baptist Church.
ANDREW MANIS: This is going to be a very nuts and bolts kind of
question but what was the salary and the support , the financial
support that Bethel gave to Reverend Shuttlesworth?
MR . DAVIS: Well, not being an officer at the time, I am an
officer of the church now, but at that time I wasn ' t, I don ' t
know of a salary that we agreed to pay him. But I am sure that
he utilized church funds to his convenience and that could not
have been that much money because we didn't have any. So, it
wasn ' t the money • . . .
ANDREW MANIS: You wouldn't take a guess would you?
15
MR. DAVIS: I would say at the time that he might have had a
salary of $75.00 a week.
ANDREW MANIS: To get back to the bombing, the bombing and a
number of other things I am going to name, I'm just going to ask
if you can respond, sort of whatever comes to your mind about
those events, reminiscences or other important events that
happened to you or that you know happened to Reverend
Shuttlesworth in conjunction with these events: the bombing, the
Christmas bombing i n 1956.
MR. DAVIS: Well, the Christmas bombing in 1956 was one that, I
think that the whole of Birmingham was shook up. That was the
first bombing. That was before Sixteenth Street and we had a
parsonage right next to the church, very closely connected to the
church. Reverend Shuttlesworth's family lived in the parsonage.
I guess the children were in the back part of the house but he
happened to have been in bed at the time that this happened. It
just tore that building up and -- there's no question about it
it was a miracle that he wasn't killed. There was no question
about it. It appeared that they were really trying to kill him.
But he didn't have a scratch on him. So I think that inspired
him more than any other one thing. Rather than frighten him, it
inspired him. That's one incident that I recall because I never
saw any bandages on him or anything of the kind. To see that
building and realize that he walked out of there without a
scratch on him was miraculous.
ANDREW MANIS: How did the church respond to that? What did they
16
conclude from that?
MR. DAVIS: The church then -- I am certain that members realized
then that we had a problem. If you were to explain the
complexities as it relates to Black involvement, Black people
have been in need of leadership for a long time and individually,
I think that the System has selected who they wanted to fill
leadership positions and yet that has never satisfied the Black
community. That has prolonged the equities that should have
existed a long time ago. I think that Reverend Shuttlesworth was
one that wasn't chosen by the establishment as such, but he
attacked the establishment and that made Black people rally
behind him. Whereas they wouldn't have done it individually but
once it started, it was a rally.
ANDREW MANIS: Did his escaping from that bombing without a
scratch convince people, the Black community, generally that here
was a leader?
MR. DAVIS: Here was a leader. Here was a man that is determined
to be fair in this thinking and he is going to get us relief of
the problems.
ANDREW MANIS: Did the people have a sense that God's hand was on
him?
MR. DAVIS: That's exactly right. All that was figured into
that. From that we had integration of the schools. He came to
Phillips High School and a mob met him there. He was beaten with
chains. That still snowballed, created a snowball effect and
people began to give him credit for being a leader in the
17
community.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall anything surrounding the arrest of
his children in Gadsden in 1960?
MR. DAVIS: I heard something about that. I don't recall any
details. But there was some type of a youth program. Strange as
it seems, at that time it was just a thing that you didn't see
whites and Blacks mingling together at all. That was a no no.
Somehow I recall --I heard them talk about that at the church,
about the children being at a summer camp up there and were with
some whites and were arrested. But I don't know any details
about that.
ANDREW MANIS: What are some of your most vivid recollections
about the big demonstrations in 1960 through 80, particularly
Reverend Shuttlesworth's role in all that?
MR. DAVIS: Well, as I said, Reverend Shuttlesworth was a man
that was never at a loss for words. He was very vocal and
determined and he said what the Black people wanted to hear him
say. He didn't back up and I've been in meetings where it was
just jam packed. There were just such crowds that you couldn't
get in the building. Yet they were all there. He brings that
kind of crowd now when he comes to Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: What were you doing in 1963?
MR. DAVIS: In 1963 I was working for the Bessemer Board of
Education and they fired me in 1970 because of my writing
editorial letters. You see there was something about the system
that never wanted a Black person to feel that he was a part of
18
anything other than what they wanted him to have and I had an
unusual situation happen to me -- I mean most unusual. The first
Black person I worked under was a Black principal at Abrams High
School in Bessemer. I was very proud of that because I felt that
here I had worked under Mr. McCoy and Mr. Mulvaney at the
Land N Railroad Company and at the Post Office -- all white
supervisors. But here I was working for a Black man. I took
pride in that. The work gave me new directions. On one occasion
the Black principal, Mr. Walter Branch, had instructed me to take
pictures of the football team. He asked me to enroll on the
campus and at 12:00 take pictures of the football squad during a
championship game. The Birmingham News photographer was going to
be on the campus at the time. The principal telling me -- he was
the big man at the school there. I got the school camera and
went out and took pictures. I came in my classroom about five
minutes late. At that time the assistant superintendent was
white and his immediate supervisor, Mr. S. Porch, was white.
When I walked in with the camera Mr. Porch said, "Davis, where in
the hell have you been?" -- in those terms. That is what he
said, my class was still in the hallway. I said, "Mr. Porch, I
have been taking pictures of the football squad as I have been
instructed by the principal." So he told me I mean for you to
stay in the shop. So I said, "Mr. Porch, it I S no problem to stay
in the shop. You go up and tell Mr. Branch you want me to stay
in the shop. If it is his wish that I stay here, you have no
problem. Mr. Branch tells me [indistinguishable]." When I said
19
that he put his hand up to my collar before my class. He said,
"I mean for you to stay in the shop." God had relieved me of all
hate back in 1945. Nobody could make me hate then. So when he
put his hand to my collar I knew he was off base as a young man
trying to teach young men. All Black young men had looked to me
for leadership. So I looked at him and I just happened to just
tell him, I said, "Man, take your filthy hands off me." Just
like that. I said, "Take your hands off me right now and I mean
that." At that time he dropped his hands and started shaking all
over. He was an elderly man. The assistant superintendent
walked up and said, "Porch, what's wrong? 11 I turned around and I
walked off. I went up the hallway to see the principal. The
principal was standing there in the hallway. I said, "Mr.
Branch, a few minutes ago Mr. Porch was handling my collar. I
don't particularly like that. That shocked me." That began my
editorial writings. I began -- my book at home -- I have a book
of editorial writings. He looked at me and never opened his
mouth, never moved his lips. He walked in his office and closed
the door in my face. Then I realized what a sad condition Black
people were in as far as leadership is concerned. Here is a
prinCipal of a high school that could not protect his own word.
He was the principal. He had told me to take those pictures. I
wasn't expecting him to do the front work for me. Just to say,
he COUld've told me, "Mr. Davis, I will attend to this." He
WOUldn't say one word. Then I realized that he was programmed
not to make any waves. And then I realized that we don't have
20
leadership. He just didn't have it. And at that time Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a focal leader and then any Black person worth
his salt realized that if any Black man takes a leadership
position and speaksto the decencies of Black people then they are
worthy of recognition. That's what Reverend Shuttlesworth was.
ANDREW MANIS: What would say Reverend Shuttlesworth's most
significant influence on you was as your pastor?
MR. DAVIS: Well, there wasn't too much direct influence on me as
an individual. I respected him as my pastor. Because my goals
and interests wasn't social. My goals was economics. I don't
care anything about whether I sat at a counter or whether I go in
a motel. That didn't bother me at all. And I thought that the
whole movement was off base along that line. Because I had been
working trying to help Black men get jobs in the plants. That is
why I was fired from L & N and at Bessemer, because I addressed
issues. I wrote letters to editors concerning segregation and
that sort of thing. But there was a difference in my feelings
than Dr. King and Reverend Shuttlesworth in relationship to the
movement. I felt it should have been strictly economics rather
than social. They were going after the social aspect of it and I
thought that was wrong.
ANDREW MANIS: What about Reverend Shuttlesworth's personal
relationships, his style? Were there people in the church who
felt that they had close relationships with Shuttlesworth?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yeah! He had a dynamic personality. No question
about that.
21
ANDREW MANIS: What about conflict? Was there any signifi cant
confl ict in the church between Reverend Shuttlesworth and other
members or officers of t he church?
MR. DAVIS: Well , I don ' t know how this came about but there was
a conflict as far as I was concerned . After I was made an
officer. I admired him as a leader as my pastor and as a
l eader . After he the dust began to settle in the Birmingham
area , after we we r e abl e to ride the bu ses , t he communi ty began
to tal k about the fact that he was going to leave and go to
Cincinnati . My being an officer - - not the only one but being on
the Board of Deacons it had never come before the Boar d that
the pastor was going t o Cincinnati . Yet there was street talk .
And so one Sunday morning , the pastor called the officers
together . He s i mpl y stated that he had been called to Cincinnati
to a larger church and that he was leaving in ninety days. After
he finished talking to the group , I menti oned to him , " Reverend,
inasmuch as you have accepted this church in Cincinnati, why take
n i nety days? We don ' t have a pastor. Are you sure this i s what
God wants you to do?" He said , "Oh , Br other Davis , I wil l be
here in Birmingham . " I said , "Then why take ninety days? " He
persi s t ed in being the past or at Bethel Bapti st Church for ninety
days. Well , that kind of hung in my mind . After all , i f he had
accepted a church in Ci ncinnati , this transition period , it would
maybe take up to nine t y days , if it takes that . I questi oned
that in my mind . I don ' t know whether any officer on the board
addressed that but after he had made the statement to the board,
22
the very next Sunday he was in Cincinnati and the next Sunday he
was at Bethel. Then the next Sunday, Cincinnati; then the next
Sunday, Bethel. So one Sunday morning I saw him and I said,
"Reverend, I would like to have a conference with you and the
board. He said, "Well, Davis, I will be out of town next Sunday.
When I get back we can talk about it, okay?" So when he got back
he said, "What do you want to talk about?" So I said, "What I
have to say is nothing personal. I just want to talk to you as a
member of this church." So he said, IIIf you can't tell me what
you want to talk about, there won't be no meeting." So I said,
"You don't give me no choice but to bring it before the church."
So the following Sunday morning during the announcement period,
after the announcements, I raised my hand to address the church
as he suggested. He was in the pulpit. So he didn't recognize
me. So my grandmother I had stood there. He had opened his
Bible and took a text. I raised my hand. And my grandmother was
sitting in the audience of the church. People were telling me to
sit down -- not to do that. I don't know how I couldn't move.
I was standing; I wanted to be heard. And so my grandmother came
up to try to pull me over but she didn't -- I just stood firm. I
didn't move, my dad came out of the choir to get his mother. So
he kind of pulled her a little bit and kind of stumbled. And the
church started mumbling. Reverend Shuttlesworth said, "Do you
all want to hear what he has to say?" They all said, "Yes. II So
I simply told him that -- I have those papers -- I believe I have
them at home now -- a statement requesting what I as an officer
23
was looking at for the church. Inasmuch that the pastor had been
called to Cincinnati, I felt that we should only pay him for the
time and services that he rendered rather than for him to be
receiving full salary at Bethel and full salary at Cincinnati. I
didn't think it was right. So I brought my little thesis before
the congregation and after I said what I wanted to say and he had
the kind of influence -- he asked them "all in favor of what he
said, raise your hand." Nobody raised their hand but I had said
what I had to say. That was the only confrontation I had with
him.
ANDREW MANIS: How would you respond to the characterization that
I have run across that Shuttlesworth was egotistical and
autocratic?
MR. DAVIS: Well, I would think that he had a kind of trend of
thinking that he wanted to control the thinking of people and
that he wanted to prove that he was worthy of it. He would
challenge anyone. I would just walk in there! It didn't bother
him about a challenge. And so I would think that was a part of
his physical makeup. But my interest was, at first, I was
seriously concerned as to whether he was deserting the cause that
he had started and that was my interest. But after I found out
that he had this church in Cincinnati and was going to keep both
of them going at the same time, then I felt that this was wrong.
ANDREW MANIS: He moved to the church in 1961, is that right?
MR. DAVIS: I don't recall the exact date. It was something like
that.
24
ANDREW MANIS: But he continued to come to Birmingham after he
had moved up there?
MR. DAVIS: Oh, yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: What was the sense of Bethel Church when he
continued to be viewed as the leader of Birmingham?
MR. DAVIS: Yeah. NOw, see, what had happened there, I just
wanted to make sure see, at first, Reverend Shuttlesworth had
a type of influence on the church that he could have, if he had
forced it, had I not made the connotations I had, he would have
been, maybe using the church's property, the parsonage, the
church facilities at will and no one was going to stop him
because you don't have the type of people in the Baptist church
that would take a stand on an issue like this. I don't know why
I did. But I didn't have no choice. It was just a thing that I
had to address.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think Fred Shuttlesworth was at that time,
or is today, jealous of the notoriety of Martin Luther King?
MR. DAVIS: I feel, this is an opinion -- nothing but an opinion.
I feel that he feels that Dr. King -- that he deserved more than
he got out of it.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you agree with that?
MR. DAVIS: No, I don't agree.
ANDREW MANIS: Why not?
MR. DAVIS: Dr. King, in my opinion, was the only man that this
country ever produced that had the power to stir the souls of men
with his voice. Reverend Shuttlesworth can't do that. You see,
25
Dr. King, no person, Black, white or otherwise, could sit under
Dr. Martin Luther King and listen to him and not be moved. That
was the difference between the two. Reverend Shuttlesworth
didn't recognize that. I guess he thought that if he had the
guts enough to challenge Bull Connor, he should have been
accepted on a broader scale, but he wasn't like Dr. Martin Luther
King.
ANDREW MANIS: How do you think Fred Shuttlesworth should be
remembered?
MR. DAVIS: I think he should be remembered as a leader that had
a challenging responsibility and accepted it square and head-on.
There is no question about it. It took courage to do what he
did. He should be remembered in that manner.
ANDREW MANIS: Thank you, Mr. Davis. I appreciate your time.
26