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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Did Cowherd mention that the ONLY sellouts the Pacers have is for games with Miami, LA, NY, Brkyn, SAS, Chicago. and Boston? These teams have all white players with no tattoos, right? Oh, wait a minute! What a silly topic in 2013! On the other hand, I have some friends who moved out of Indy and didn't see Pacer games for several years whose first questions for me was "Why are you still following those Thugs?" The public perception of a team is a delicate thing. Maybe TPTB does need a state wide 'get to know your Pacers' tour in the off season?

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Haven't you guys seen all the KKK members that stand outside the fieldhouse keeping all the law abiding folks from getting into the games? It's a real travesty I tell you. Amazingly enough though they let the players into the game. One of the 7 wonders of the world really.

No. I only tend to notice them around Christmas time when they're in front of all the Walmarts ringing bells, just a few yards away from the Salvation Army who keeps looking at them nervously.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

I also hesitate to get involved in this thread. I will say that "racism" is a much, much more complicated and subtle issue than some of you are making it out to be. Kravitz is oversimplifying as well. The "hey, why weren't we selling out games when we had a bunch of white dudes a few years back" comments strike me as particularly ignorant... JMHO.

I think the true attendance issues are complex. However as I've said many many times in these attendance threads... the issues are local/regional ones. It's not ticket prices, or the bad economy, or parking, or the NBA as a sport, or the product on the floor, or the stadium... these are all things that are as good or better in Indy than in other similar-sized markets who have better attendance.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

I honestly wasn't aware this was even being considered an issue.

I hate reading articles by people playing the race card. I hate reading articles by people protesting against others playing the race card. It's not qutie as simple as, "If you don't talk about it, it will go away," but I feel like there's no reason to give something so potentially divisive legs. Racism is out there, but it's not running rampant in dominant culture *quite* the way journalists hoping to score ratings by talking about contentious yet safe issues would have you believe.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.

I live in Evansville, and it is nothing like the fantasy world you are describing. The inner city is a very diverse place and you see just as many black racists as whites. Just check Topix if you don't believe me. The idiotic racism goes both ways. If you are white with a big family odds are you have at least one bi racial family member. I have several. How could we be so racist? I have had several black friends and acquaintances over the years. And trust me I have met black people who are racist against other black people. So your notion that Evansville is so full of white racism is false. Outside of the city of Evansville in the majority white parts you have more white racism than the inner city. In the inner city the blacks are more racist than the ones that live in the majority white areas. It's called human nature.

Again it's a two way street. I have been in the black areas and encountered racism for being white. I'm sure black people have been to the white areas and encountered it. But I've been the only white guy in the club and never truly had a problem. And I've seen one black guy in a club full of whites and never have a real problem. Almost no hate crimes occur here, even though the crime rate is pretty high within the city limits.

I have also lived on the Southside of Indianapolis for many years, which is a majority white as well. I encountered just as much racism in Indianapolis as Evansville, which was some words here and there, but no for real hate crimes. Ever head of Whiteland Indiana? It was called that for a reason at one point in time. You obviously have not lived here in Evansville the last 20 years. Maybe in 1992 you had a point, I have heard crazy stories from the riots in the 60s, but I never see extreme racial issues here today. We all seem to get along just fine, even if some dumbasses make stupid comments on the Internet.

Ok mods I won't make any more comments on this issue. I am done with this thread.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

To me, the bottom line is that we had racism in Indiana in the 70s 80s 90s and 2000s, probably even more back then than in 2013, so it was always a variable in this equation since the creation of the franchise, which is why I see no reason why it would suddenly be a more significant factor today than it has ever been before. It's almost certainly other reasons IMO.

To me, the bottom line is that we had racism in Indiana in the 70s 80s 90s and 2000s, probably even more back then than in 2013, so it was always a variable in this equation since the creation of the franchise, which is why I see no reason why it would suddenly be a more significant factor today than it has ever been before. It's almost certainly other reasons IMO.

This is the harsh truth (as I see it):

The nba has and will always be about the stars. When the pacers get a crowd pleasing star that shines on a national level, local attendance will go up.

Given Paul George's rise, he could be there someday, but he doesn't do a lot of his work in the highlight reels. Reggie did almost all of his work there. George is probably a better player right now than Reggie ever was, but he may never be as big a local draw.

(Cue the inevitable response of rants about Indiana being about team first and me not knowing what I'm talking about)

It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Cool. I like Evansville. I lived there from 1985-87. Went to Plaza Park Middle School and lived near Division St. near Green River Rd. before they turned it into a bypass. My stepmom was born and raised there, and my dad met and married her 27 years ago while we lived there. I still have friends from there and I have been back many many many times, most recently in 2009 or so for a few days. Did some riverboat gambling among other things.

I never said Evansville was a bad place, in fact I even said (referring to all of Indiana actually) "Great people for the most part." Please go back and re-read what I actually said, not what you seem to *feel* like I said.

Again it's a two way street. I have been in the black areas and encountered racism for being white. I'm sure black people have been to the white areas and encountered it. But I've been the only white guy in the club and never truly had a problem. And I've seen one black guy in a club full of whites and never have a real problem. Almost no hate crimes occur here, even though the crime rate is pretty high within the city limits.

I think you have a pretty different idea of what "racism" is than I do. Racism isn't just overt hate crimes and fighting and name calling. It's MUCH more subtle and institutional than that. It's income and job disparity, education disparity, housing and job discrimination, and a whole host of other things.

I have also lived on the Southside of Indianapolis for many years, which is a majority white as well.

So did I. Greenwood High School class of 1992. I was editor of the school paper and had to go to MSA for Pacers games to take pictures of the school band or the color guard or whenever our choir would sing the national anthem, that sort of stuff. I got floor press passes for Pacer games and that's when I fell in love with the team. Chuck Person, Detlef, young Reggie etc.

There was a total of ONE black kid in my entire high school until my senior year, when that kid's younger brother became a freshman. Then there were two black kids! (That doesn't have any correlation to racism, just sayin)

Did you know that the head of the KKK resided in Greenwood for many years in the early 20th century? One of the town's claims to fame.

Thanks for the not-so-thinly veiled personal attack! Have a great day. I stand by every single word I said previously, which if you actually chill out for a second and re-read slowly, wasn't anywhere as accusatory as you seem to have taken it.

Last edited by rabid; 02-22-2013 at 04:56 PM.
Reason: lived in Evansville for 2 years, not 12 years - mistyped, fixed

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Cool. I like Evansville. I lived there from 1985-97. Went to Plaza Park Middle School and lived near Division St. near Green River Rd. before they turned it into a bypass. My stepmom was born and raised there, and my dad met and married her 27 years ago while we lived there. I still have friends from there and I have been back many many many times, most recently in 2009 or so for a few days. Did some riverboat gambling among other things.

Go back and re-read exactly what I said. What "fantasy world" did I describe?

You said, and I quote...

Any other place in the world? Really?.... Have you traveled much?

I never said Evansville was a bad place, in fact I even said (referring to all of Indiana actually) "Great people for the most part." Please go back and re-read what I actually said, not what you seem to *feel* like I said.

This is meaningless, what's your point? There is no racism in Evansville because there are black people and white people in the same place?

I agree! In fact I never said otherwise.

You have several black friends, cool... there couldn't possibly be racism in Evansville if you have black friends right?

I never said that. Please show me where I said that.

Totally agree.

EDIT: Sorry, misread what you said here, I actually agree with this

I think you have a pretty different idea of what "racism" is than I do. Racism isn't just overt hate crimes and fighting and name calling. It's MUCH more subtle and institutional than that. It's income and job disparity, education disparity, housing and job discrimination, and a whole host of other things.

So did I. Greenwood High School class of 1992. I was editor of the school paper and had to go to MSA for Pacers games to take pictures of the school band or the color guard or whenever our choir would sing the national anthem, that sort of stuff. I got floor press passes for Pacer games and that's when I fell in love with the team. Chuck Person, Detlef, young Reggie etc.

There was a total of ONE black kid in my entire high school until my senior year, when that kid's younger brother became a freshman. Then there were two black kids! (That doesn't have any correlation to racism, just sayin)

Did you know that the head of the KKK resided in Greenwood for many years in the early 20th century? One of the town's claims to fame.

Again, I think you unfortunately have a very superficial idea of what "racism" is. There's a LOT more to it than name calling or hate crimes.

Thanks yeah, I lived 5 miles from there for 6-7 years and had close friends who went to their high school. What's your point.

Thanks for the not-so-thinly veiled personal attack! Have a great day. I stand by every single word I said previously, which if you actually chill out for a second and re-read slowly, wasn't anywhere as accusatory as you seem to have taken it.

1. I am sorry you took my post like it was directed exclusively towards you. I could have worded it better and made that clear. Again I apologize.

2. I was directing it more towards the discussion in general, not you specifically. I do get offensive when people call my city more racist because it just simply is not true. It was like I was defending it against all the people that make that assumption. I do not think words carry as much weight as actions. I have seen white people make racist remarks then fall in love with a black person. Some people just make dumb and ignorant comments because they are human, and humans fear what is different than them. They later realize they are wrong or they did not really fully mean what they said in the first place. My point is that if racism really was that prevalent then hate crimes would occur more than they do, not that they are an exclusive measure of racism.

3. You make great points about subtle racism. I know it exists, but I still stand to argue that it is no more prevalent in Evansville, or amongst whites. Races in all cities are racist. Any white person knows they may not survive in certain neighborhoods very long simply because of their skin color. Places like LA come to mind. I had a white friend from San Diego. He told me stories of all the racism he encountered because he was white from Mexican Americans. He was jumped several times and even stabbed once simply for being white. So what city do you speak of that has so much less racism than Evansville?

4. Subtle racism exists in all races. White people just happen to be the majority in this country. I would debate that all countries have problems with subtle racism towards the minorities. I think if whites were the minority, they would have it tougher as well, because racism transcends skin color. Whenever a race has a majority that means there are more total racists, and it does cause some form of disadvantage for minorities, but the legal system has tried to remedy the situation through anti discrimination laws. The justice system may be racist, but that is an evil and corrupt system that needs reform regardless. I just have never witnessed racism hold back a qualified black person. All the black people I know that were good workers and people climbed the ladder just as easy as a white person, and easier in some cases because of affirmative action.

5. I did not mean to direct the dumbasses comment at you. I was speaking of all the idiots on the Internet that spew off racist remarks. These idiots are a make up of all races. You just see more white ones because there are a lot more white people in this country than any race.

6. I am done this time. I know I have crossed the line for this board and this discussion belongs in Market Square but I wanted to respond to your comments.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Ever spent time in Evansville? Martinsville?

I love Indiana. I spent 31 years of my life living there. Crown Point, Evansville, Louisville area, Greenwood, and Bloomington. Great people for the most part. But there definitely is more racism in certain areas of the state (maybe not Indy so much anymore) than in some other parts of the country.

Doesn't make it Indiana's "fault" per se, there are complex forces at work, economically, culturally, historically... but all places are not the same, sorry.

100% agree. I've heard racist talk and had to cope with it simply to maintain social decorum. I've been in many converstations where people say things that they don't even realize is racist. AT WORK last year someone emailed out a photoshop of Obama as a monkey. AT WORK. No one flinched, no one was hauled into HR, and the general reception was "ha ha".

Also it's not been that long ago that we had a Klan rally down at the courthouse, like the early 90s as I recall. This is the truth from a lifer Hoosier who has also had the chance to briefly live in a few other places. Indy Metro is interesting and has a decent level of diversity, but it's a drastically different demographic just 20-30 miles from the circle.

Plus Kravitz response was way over the top. He took Cowherd's points and twisted them into hyperbolic strawmen. Colin never said it's KKK time and hoods in Indy. He said that in some of these markets fans feel uncomfortable with a product built around people that look different and perhaps come from a different culture.

And don't even get me started on "but HS or NCAA players are black and get support" because the sad truth there is that those roles are perceived as "controlled" young men, not rich 20 somethings able to do whatever they want and imposing their culture on you. It can feel almost like a passive aggressive thing where the black kids are allowed to be controlled by a white coach, but look out when it comes to a black NCAA coach in the state. Indiana had a brief run, and you have IUPUI, the metro college.

But if IU had a president, AD, and so on that promoted what might be considered a classic "black school" climate like Grambling, with the marching band styles, players with different fashion sense, etc. Well then skin would crawl for a good portion of the fanbase.

Indiana is also not the most racist area I've been too. There are certainly a lot more overt issues in placers like the Carolinas, Alabama and Mississippi. Indiana is just a few steps up from "overt" and is now in the "I don't have any problem with them, I just don't like their hip hopping and bling and all the gang problems like at Black Expo". And maybe this is only 30% of the area or 40%, whatever. It's still more than other places have. So just because lots of people aren't that way doesn't mean it's not an issue still in setting the cultural mood.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Sports. Where complete strangers call another complete stranger racist, because they don't go to games.

Considering how awful WNBA attendance is, you all must be sexist too. Make sure to punch your mother.

Women can't play quality basketball, it's boring to watch because they kinda suck.

Sexist or not sexist? Because that's the reason the attendance for the WNBA is lower. To me it sounds like the perception of the sport product is being based directly on a gender based stereotype. It may be built on some truth, but it's got nothing to do with a hate crime on a woman. Mom can't throw a ball does NOT equal punch your mom.

And there is a difference between racism in the traditional sense of open hostility and the general discomfort of being cultural out of synch. Kings of Comedy were pretty damn funny, but they didn't sell a lot of tickets to white people. That's not just random chance.

And of course this goes both ways, or multi-ways. It also goes for nationalities, regionalism, etc. There is a reason why soccer and hockey aren't as popular in the US. But that doesn't make it wrong to note it and say "maybe soccer just isn't for Americans, maybe they just shouldn't try to support a pro-league" much in the way Colin is saying "maybe the NBA just isn't for Indiana and maybe it has less to do with costs (low) and style (team based instead of single star).

I think the subconscious racial views played a huge part in how the brawl, Rio, 8 Seconds and Cloud 9 were perceived. If someone followed Larry Bird back to the Conrad and took shots at him, the fans wouldn't wanted to run him out of town or blamed him for it. Just like fans will trash a black player that fathers a kid out of wedlock or maybe doesn't do a great job of supporting them, but gives Larry a free pass on his first daughter.

So the Pacers had won over fans and they did have some actions that should have made fans not like those particular players. But they should know or could easily know that those problematic players are long gone, and yet they've clung to the "thug" image which tells me it's more about how they view NBA players in general.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Are there idiots who hate the Pacers & NBA because of race? Yes, I am absolutely certain that there are.

Those people did not attend Pacers games in the past (with maybe the exception of back in the 80's and very early 90's wearing their Kelly Green) the aren't attending Pacers games now and they will never attend Pacers games in the future.

So to me they are not an issue nor should they be. In fact wasting any moment of your life thinking about them is a loss.

Again I am just stunned that the attendance is even an issue right now. This year is so much better than it has been in the past few years it's not even funny.

One thing though that Bob did point out in his article that I did not know and am glad that he did. Due to the capacity we can only ever be as high as 13th in the NBA in attendance.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Well said Seth. Thank you. Yiu were able to accurately describe the problem without upsettung people.

I think there are two schools of thought in white america. "Racism doesnt really exist" crowd and thise who see major problems with how our society treats minorities. I think the problem, as you said, is thos who think racism is a minor issue believe racism means "kkk." Where as systematic racism is something you cannot see unless you're looking for it.

The subtle racism in our society whether it is from individuals or the media is a major problem we must solve. It doesnt mean people intend to cause harm. They just dont realize it. Calling an african american a "thug" for instance is extremely offensive but many people dont realize it.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Again, yes, racism exists in Indiana. I made that very clear in my first post. I've witnessed it first hand. I have three adopted sisters that are not white like the rest of my family. I've seen some of the looks we get once we get a certain distance from the safety of Indy and it's burbs. I heard the racist things that the black players on my high school team had to hear as well when we beat Lebanon in Sectionals. I've seen it.

But it is not the reason the Pacers can't sell out games every night. It's probably not even in the top 50 reasons. 1.) These people typically don't live that close to the fieldhouse. For most areas I've had this experience in (and again sure there are some racists still even in metro Indy, but we all know it is extremely, extremely rare, Indy is now a very diverse place) it would be a minimum one hour both ways to attend a Pacers game anyway. 2.) These areas I've also had these experiences in are typically pretty hard hit by economy themselves. The fieldhouse sit 18,165. If racists were the only issue the Pacers had to deal with when marketing the team or filling up the stadium or even the primary issue or even a top 5 or 10 issue, the fieldhouse would be full every night because it's just not that big of an issue specifically for the Pacers.

It's a societal issue, one we should want to eradicate, yes, but not one that the eradication of would lead to a sudden increase in support of the Pacers.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Also it's not been that long ago that we had a Klan rally down at the courthouse, like the early 90s as I recall. This is the truth from a lifer Hoosier who has also had the chance to briefly live in a few other places. Indy Metro is interesting and has a decent level of diversity, but it's a drastically different demographic just 20-30 miles from the circle.

And I've seen something similar in Terre Haute. A Klan rally of 10 white sheeted buffoons making fools of themselves. Of course they were eclipsed big time by the crowd of over a hundred folks yelling back at the POSs. And to clarify the anti Klan folks were from the Terre Haute area (not brought in from the outside). Funny thing also is the crowd was 90% white and 10%black.

Indiana as a whole is no worse or better than anywhere else, but it sure seems we get stuck with that label. Gee I believe with little effort we might discover there is racism even on the east coast where Cowherd is from.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

4 of 11 starters on the Colts offense are white and 1 of 11 starters on defense are white. The depth chart shows the starting tight end is white and Dwyane Allen is listed as the fullback but Allen was 4th in receiving yards on the team with over 500 and is listed as a tight end on the stat sheet while Cody Fleener had 280. So I'm counting Allen as the starting tight end despite what the depth chart shows. Also worth noting aside from just 5 of the 22 starters being white, the third leading receiver and back up running back are both black and contributed with 780yds receiving and 420 yards rushing. Point is, the team was centered around 18 black players, 5 white players and 1 Hawaiian player not including special teams. And of the five white starters, three were offensive lineman. Nobody goes to the game to watch offensive lineman or buys their jerseys so that leaves two white players actually worth watching, the QB and SS. That didn't seem to hurt attendance...

I'm assuming the Pacers attendance being down has to do with the fact that a lot of people can't afford to go to games. I know a number of people who are struggling to save their homes and avoid foreclosure. When your options are keeping a roof over your head, electricity on, water running, heat running, food on the table, phone, internet, insurance, gas etc. or going to a game, the choice is easy for most. And a lot of people who can afford to the games, can't afford to go to both Colts and Pacers games. With football being more popular, more people would rather go to football games. Then you factor in there are only 8 home games in the NFL and 40 in the NBA. We're just finishing up 11 home games in the span of 29 days. We also had a stretch earlier in the season of 7 home games in 15 days. 11 home games in 29 days is a home game every two and a half days, and 7 home games in 15 days is a home game every other night. Unless you've been preparing for the whole offseason for the season and bought season tickets, a lot of people don't have the money or aren't invested in the NBA enough to put forth that much time and money. It's not just tickets, it's also gas and the potential of paying for parking, eating at the game or eating out, multiple tickets for an entire family or paying a baby sitter. That adds up really quickly for just that 15 day and 29 day span. Or if you're a casual fan, that's a lot of time to devote to basketball over the course of 15 days-29 days.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think race playing a part in attendance is the farthest factor from making a difference in attendance being down. I think it has everything to do with some people not being able to afford it at all, others not being able to afford 40 home games and some that can afford it, they spend their money on going to Colts games. Or maybe they're fans of Hoosier football, Hoosier basketball, Notre Football, Notre Dame basketball, Purdue football, Purdue basketball, Butler basketball, Bulls, Bears, Bengals, Reds, Cubs, White Sox etc. and they spend their money seeing them instead. You can't afford to do it all and the majority of people prefer football over basketball. There are also a number of people who prefer baseball over basketball and a lot of people prefer college sports over pro sports. I really don't think race plays much of a factor if at all in attendance but that's jmo I guess.

Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

Are there idiots who hate the Pacers & NBA because of race? Yes, I am absolutely certain that there are.

Those people did not attend Pacers games in the past (with maybe the exception of back in the 80's and very early 90's wearing their Kelly Green) the aren't attending Pacers games now and they will never attend Pacers games in the future.

So to me they are not an issue nor should they be. In fact wasting any moment of your life thinking about them is a loss.

Again I am just stunned that the attendance is even an issue right now. This year is so much better than it has been in the past few years it's not even funny.

One thing though that Bob did point out in his article that I did not know and am glad that he did. Due to the capacity we can only ever be as high as 13th in the NBA in attendance.

But wouldn't that be assuming that everyone with larger arenas fill theirs? If we filled our arena and a team with a larger arena didn't fill theirs, couldn't we surpass 13th?

Calling an african american a "thug" for instance is extremely offensive but many people dont realize it.

So what word CAN be used for a person who chooses a violent lifestyle that isn't considered racist?

When I grew up, a thug was more likely to refer to the guy selling protection for the Mafia - I have no idea when the decision was made that it was racist, who I should be checking my vocabulary with to have it approved, and what word I'm allowed to use instead.

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Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

It's absolutely become much more common place to call black athletes a "thug" disproportionately to white athletes. Not guys that get in legal trouble or anything, just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that. I wouldn't necessarily call it a slur, but it absolutely has gained racial connotations in the last decade or so.