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Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith

Let me ask you a question... Do you personally have eternal life once you die? Can you die again?

We Christians have the Lord's promise of Eternal life. Our favorite verse: John 3:16, says so. Our names are now Written in the Book of Life.
BUT it is possible to have names blotted out of the Book of Life, if we fall from our faith. Hebrews 10:26-27 refers to this.

When we die, our next conscious thought will be as we stand with every other person ever born, before Almighty God sitting on the Great White Throne. The Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality. Those not found there, will be thrown into the lake of fire. End of story.

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus

1 Corithians 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[a] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Sure. When does 1 Corinthians 15:49 say this will happen?
1 Cor 5:22-23 can be thought to mean resurrection at Christ's coming. And that will happen to the martyrs, as we see in Rev 20:4. But not to every Christian, then. That would cause a scriptural contradiction. The dead, small and great; ALL peoples; Rev 20:12, must wait for the Day of Judgement.

It is purely wishful thinking to believe in immortality before that Day.

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

Sure. When does 1 Corinthians 15:49 say this will happen?
1 Cor 5:22-23 can be thought to mean resurrection at Christ's coming. And that will happen to the martyrs, as we see in Rev 20:4. But not to every Christian, then. That would cause a scriptural contradiction. The dead, small and great; ALL peoples; Rev 20:12, must wait for the Day of Judgement.

It is purely wishful thinking to believe in immortality before that Day.

Sorry, you said a spiritual body was needed to enter Heaven. So if we bear the Image of the Heavenly Man do we dwell on Earth or IN Heaven?

The "When" was not what I was addressing in this passage, but if you want a when passage I would use Philippians 3:21

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith

I am not Pre-Trib. I am what some might call Pre-Wrath, I guess... (Although the timeline I see is far more clear than theirs...) My position is that I will be standing in the group at Rev 7:9-17, AFTER the 6th Seal is opened and before the 7th.

Great! We must stand firm in our faith during the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal sudden and shocking worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis.
Then we will travel to and live in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, + As Revelation 7:1-14 shows and Revelation 14:1-7 proves,: In Jerusalem and before Jesus Returns.
See you there, waving your palm branch!

Re: Those who know what is right

Randyk, I am not a postmillenist. Jesus will Return and reign for 1000 years, as prophesied.

The sad fact of 99.99% of Christians [that you know of] believing in instant immortality when Jesus Returns, shows a systemic failure to properly read the Bible and to understand what God actually does plan for His people.

Who will listen to me? Jeremiah 6:10
In my writings of the Prophetic scriptures about the end times, I find that many simply cannot see or understand the plainly revealed Word as given to us in the Bible. The Bible does tell us that the Lord can and does place a veil over those who He does not wish to understand His plans. This was done to the Jewish people in Jesus’ day and still remains upon them now.
Matthew 13:13-15 I speak in parables, for these people look without seeing, hear without listening or understanding. The prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10, is being fulfilled in them. Their minds have become dull, they have shut their eyes and stopped their ears. Otherwise they might see, hear and understand and then they might turn to Me and I would heal them.
Jesus came in person to them, performing miracles and teaching eternal truths, but they failed to recognize who He was and rejected Him. They lost their chance for themselves and their descendants when they called out ‘His blood be upon us and our children’. Now, nearly 2000 years later, the Jews still actually put their hands to their ears whenever the Name of Jesus is mentioned. Christians are the only religion not permitted to emigrate to the State of Israel.

But we Christians are told in:
2 Timothy 4:4 In the last days, people will stop their ears to the truth and turn to fables
2 Timothy 3:2…always wanting to be taught, but incapable of attaining to a knowledge of the truth.
So now, in the latter days, we are in the same situation of failing to properly discern the truth, turning to false teachings and therefore being made incapable of correct understanding.
Isaiah 29:9-10 If you confuse yourself, you will remain confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded, be drunk – but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed your eyes, [the prophets] and covered your heads. [the seers] Deuteronomy 29:4
Isaiah 48:1-8 Hear this now, you House of Jacob! Those who invoke the God of Israel, but not with honesty and sincerity, you call yourselves His people and lean for support on the God of Israel. I revealed what will happen long ago, I declared them to you before they happened, so you could not say: We discovered these things for ourselves. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things, so you can’t say; I know that already. For you neither heard or knew, your ears were closed long ago.
Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus said: I thank you, Father – the Creator of the heavens and the earth, for keeping hidden these things from the learned and wise and revealing them to the uneducated. Yes, Father, for that was Your choice. 1 Corinthians 1:20
Daniel 12:9-10 The prophecies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. …none of the wicked will understand, only the wise leaders will understand.

Even today, as evidenced by the incredible variety of opinions about what we face in our future, it seems that we are incapable of any sort of consensus in the interpretation of the prophecies. Isaiah 56:10-11, Deuteronomy 32:28-29
What can we do? Each must carefully read the prophesies as given to us in the Bible, putting aside all theories, ideas or specious interpretations of people qualified as they may seem to be, and see what it is those ancient prophets are actually telling us. 2 Peter 1:19
That is my aim and object in all my writing: to set out the Prophetic Word in easily read short articles and giving other verses to explain it, along with how what is said could literally be fulfilled in the light of our modern knowledge. If what I write about conflicts with what you have been taught and believe, then please: for your own sake, check all the scriptures in order to come to an understanding of the truth.
Pray for understanding and do not be ‘in the dark’, about what will happen. 1 Thess.5:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-8, Isaiah 32:3-4

Re: Those who know what is right

Sorry you said a spirtual body was needed to enter Heaven. So if we bear the Imagine of the Heavenly Man do we dwell on Earth or IN Heaven?

The "When" was not what i was addressing in this passage, but if you want a when passage i would use Philippians 3:21

Yes, a spiritual body would be necessary to live in a spiritual place. But the Bible never says that we will go to heaven. Our destiny is on earth.

Philippians 3:21 He will transfigure our humble bodies and give them a form like that of His own glorious body, by that power which enables Him to make all things subject to Himself. Great Words! No mention there of when.
The idea of immortality during the Millennium is wrong and contradicts Isaiah 65:20. Not even the martyrs, brought back to life, Rev 20:4, become immortal then.
Only after the Millennium in Eternity, do those worthy receive transfigured bodies.

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

Randyk, I am not a postmillenist. Jesus will Return and reign for 1000 years, as prophesied.

The sad fact of 99.99% of Christians [that you know of] believing in instant immortality when Jesus Returns, shows a systemic failure to properly read the Bible and to understand what God actually does plan for His people.

Who will listen to me? Jeremiah 6:10
In my writings of the Prophetic scriptures about the end times, I find that many simply cannot see or understand the plainly revealed Word as given to us in the Bible. The Bible does tell us that the Lord can and does place a veil over those who He does not wish to understand His plans. This was done to the Jewish people in Jesus’ day and still remains upon them now.
Matthew 13:13-15 I speak in parables, for these people look without seeing, hear without listening or understanding. The prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10, is being fulfilled in them. Their minds have become dull, they have shut their eyes and stopped their ears. Otherwise they might see, hear and understand and then they might turn to Me and I would heal them.
Jesus came in person to them, performing miracles and teaching eternal truths, but they failed to recognize who He was and rejected Him. They lost their chance for themselves and their descendants when they called out ‘His blood be upon us and our children’. Now, nearly 2000 years later, the Jews still actually put their hands to their ears whenever the Name of Jesus is mentioned. Christians are the only religion not permitted to emigrate to the State of Israel.

But we Christians are told in:
2 Timothy 4:4 In the last days, people will stop their ears to the truth and turn to fables
2 Timothy 3:2…always wanting to be taught, but incapable of attaining to a knowledge of the truth.
So now, in the latter days, we are in the same situation of failing to properly discern the truth, turning to false teachings and therefore being made incapable of correct understanding.
Isaiah 29:9-10 If you confuse yourself, you will remain confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded, be drunk – but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed your eyes, [the prophets] and covered your heads. [the seers] Deuteronomy 29:4
Isaiah 48:1-8 Hear this now, you House of Jacob! Those who invoke the God of Israel, but not with honesty and sincerity, you call yourselves His people and lean for support on the God of Israel. I revealed what will happen long ago, I declared them to you before they happened, so you could not say: We discovered these things for ourselves. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things, so you can’t say; I know that already. For you neither heard or knew, your ears were closed long ago.
Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus said: I thank you, Father – the Creator of the heavens and the earth, for keeping hidden these things from the learned and wise and revealing them to the uneducated. Yes, Father, for that was Your choice. 1 Corinthians 1:20
Daniel 12:9-10 The prophecies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. …none of the wicked will understand, only the wise leaders will understand.

Even today, as evidenced by the incredible variety of opinions about what we face in our future, it seems that we are incapable of any sort of consensus in the interpretation of the prophecies. Isaiah 56:10-11, Deuteronomy 32:28-29
What can we do? Each must carefully read the prophesies as given to us in the Bible, putting aside all theories, ideas or specious interpretations of people qualified as they may seem to be, and see what it is those ancient prophets are actually telling us. 2 Peter 1:19
That is my aim and object in all my writing: to set out the Prophetic Word in easily read short articles and giving other verses to explain it, along with how what is said could literally be fulfilled in the light of our modern knowledge. If what I write about conflicts with what you have been taught and believe, then please: for your own sake, check all the scriptures in order to come to an understanding of the truth.
Pray for understanding and do not be ‘in the dark’, about what will happen. 1 Thess.5:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-8, Isaiah 32:3-4

I always check things out in Scriptures. I'm baffled by your wish to view *other Christians* as virtual enemies of the faith, unbelievers, and skeptics. We are commended for being skeptical with fellow Christians who claim to have prophetic words for the church. "2 or 3 prophets should speak, and the rest should consider."

Can you imagine if I or any others here on this Forum decided to see ourselves the way you see yourself? Nobody would submit to one another. Nobody would see the other as anything other than a lost soul in need of our help!

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by randyk

I always check things out in Scriptures. I'm baffled by your wish to view *other Christians* as virtual enemies of the faith, unbelievers, and skeptics. We are commended for being skeptical with fellow Christians who claim to have prophetic words for the church. "2 or 3 prophets should speak, and the rest should consider."

Can you imagine if I or any others here on this Forum decided to see ourselves the way you see yourself? Nobody would submit to one another. Nobody would see the other as anything other than a lost soul in need of our help!

Randyk, we must be more aware of each others position and beliefs. I do get that wrong sometimes. Because we are only communicating via writing, we miss the body language, the nuances of personal contact. I am on skype, if you are interested.

As my God given task is to be a messenger of the Prophetic Word, which you cannot deny, is what I do and what I present; then your objections and rejections are exactly what the ancient prophets had to put up with. Nothing has changed. The only difference is that I am far enough away to avoid the harsh treatment they got!

I have received inspiration from the Lord, I could not have done what I have without that. But let me be quite clear; I am not a prophet, I merely reiterate what the real prophets have told us. Of Words and Visions that Christians never hear preached and if they do actually read them, they consign then to history, to the Jews or just spiritualize it all.

As this age draws to a close, at least a few will know the truth of what will happen. Daniel 12:9-10. Why not be one of them? I am sure God will reward those who know and promote the truth of His Prophetic Word. But for those who promote fables and unscriptural theories, the outcome is not so nice. James 3:1

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

Randyk, we must be more aware of each others position and beliefs. I do get that wrong sometimes. Because we are only communicating via writing, we miss the body language, the nuances of personal contact. I am on skype, if you are interested.

I have Skype or Facebook, but we've been inundated with security concerns. Perhaps later--thanks for asking!

Originally Posted by Keraz

As my God given task is to be a messenger of the Prophetic Word, which you cannot deny, is what I do and what I present; then your objections and rejections are exactly what the ancient prophets had to put up with. Nothing has changed. The only difference is that I am far enough away to avoid the harsh treatment they got!

I agree that persecution is our lot if in this wicked world we live in righteousness. However, challenges arising from brothers in the Lord are *not* persecution! I'm concerned not to build a wall around myself to prevent all challenges from taking place. Sometimes God speaks to me through those brothers. If I have a big wall up, protecting my pet positions, how, for example, can I receive correction from you, my elder brother?

I wouldn't give yourself a pass, either, on the name of "Messenger." Just because you are called to relay truths from God's word doesn't mean you are free of possible errors. You can also be a "Bad Messenger!" In that case I don't want to be "corrected" by you!

Originally Posted by Keraz

I have received inspiration from the Lord, I could not have done what I have without that. But let me be quite clear; I am not a prophet, I merely reiterate what the real prophets have told us. Of Words and Visions that Christians never hear preached and if they do actually read them, they consign then to history, to the Jews or just spiritualize it all.

I appreciate the honesty, the admission that you're not a prophet. But a teaching ministry can be just as effective as a prophet, assuming you listen to the Lord just like the Prophets did. Our problem is, I think, when we become solipsistic, thinking we don't need any input from outside of ourselves. God may choose to annoy us from outside of our comfortable area, simply because He wants to. And we have to let Him!

Originally Posted by Keraz

As this age draws to a close, at least a few will know the truth of what will happen. Daniel 12:9-10. Why not be one of them? I am sure God will reward those who know and promote the truth of His Prophetic Word. But for those who promote fables and unscriptural theories, the outcome is not so nice. James 3:1

I assure you, Keraz, that whatever truths God has given you for the Church I'm interested in. What I do know, however, is that you have not demonstrated the ability to see your brothers as equal to yourself, and that concerns me. Please prove me wrong!

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

We Christians have the Lord's promise of Eternal life. Our favorite verse: John 3:16, says so. Our names are now Written in the Book of Life.
BUT it is possible to have names blotted out of the Book of Life, if we fall from our faith. Hebrews 10:26-27 refers to this.

When we die, our next conscious thought will be as we stand with every other person ever born, before Almighty God sitting on the Great White Throne. The Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality. Those not found there, will be thrown into the lake of fire. End of story.

I agree that it is possible to fall away (and be blotted out of the book of Life). I will add that there will be many that will fall away soon... BUT, Do you believe in soul sleeping? That when we die we are not present with the Lord?

Re: Those who know what is right

Randyk; I have been persecuted by so called 'brothers'. One threatened to tar and feather me! Must have been a good ole Southern boy! Many others have been very unpleasant and nasty at having their beliefs challenged. Especially when they find their ammunition box empty.

I don't claim perfection, I have got it wrong before, I have been too quick to conclude matters, but often because of translation errors. I use Interlineal Scripture Analyzer and several translations to help to get it right.
Solipsistic? That's a new one, but it doesn't apply to me, as I do have several people that I can run things past, a peer review if you like. However it is only the ancient prophets, who I really conform to. What they say goes, for me!

Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith

I agree that it is possible to fall away (and be blotted out of the book of Life). I will add that there will be many that will fall away soon... BUT, Do you believe in soul sleeping? That when we die we are not present with the Lord?

Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 is one of the scriptures that touches this subject.
He says that if we are in our earthly bodies, we are exiles from the Lord. Then he says: for we must all have our lives laid open at the Tribunal of Christ... for Judgement.
Revelation 11:17-18 mentions this Judgement and rewards. As well as Matthew 12:36, Romans 14:10, Hebrews 6:2, + , but only Revelation 19:11-15 is clear about when it happens.
The Judgement that 1 Peter 4:17 refers to, is the forthcoming Judgement of Judah, Ezekiel 22:1-8, Isaiah 6:1-13, Jeremiah 8:8-13, +

Re soul sleep; It isn't 'sleep' as such, when we die, but our bodies go back to dust and our souls go out of time. Only to come back into time, briefly; as everyone is Judged.
I don't think all the dead get reclothed in new bodies, just the souls that figuratively stand before the GWT. Those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortal bodies then. NOT before.

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

Randyk; I have been persecuted by so called 'brothers'. One threatened to tar and feather me! Must have been a good ole Southern boy! Many others have been very unpleasant and nasty at having their beliefs challenged. Especially when they find their ammunition box empty.

I don't claim perfection, I have got it wrong before, I have been too quick to conclude matters, but often because of translation errors. I use Interlineal Scripture Analyzer and several translations to help to get it right.
Solipsistic? That's a new one, but it doesn't apply to me, as I do have several people that I can run things past, a peer review if you like. However it is only the ancient prophets, who I really conform to. What they say goes, for me!

Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 is one of the scriptures that touches this subject.
He says that if we are in our earthly bodies, we are exiles from the Lord. Then he says: for we must all have our lives laid open at the Tribunal of Christ... for Judgement.
Revelation 11:17-18 mentions this Judgement and rewards. As well as Matthew 12:36, Romans 14:10, Hebrews 6:2, + , but only Revelation 19:11-15 is clear about when it happens.
The Judgement that 1 Peter 4:17 refers to, is the forthcoming Judgement of Judah, Ezekiel 22:1-8, Isaiah 6:1-13, Jeremiah 8:8-13, +

Re soul sleep; It isn't 'sleep' as such, when we die, but our bodies go back to dust and our souls go out of time. Only to come back into time, briefly; as everyone is Judged.
I don't think all the dead get reclothed in new bodies, just the souls that figuratively stand before the GWT. Those whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortal bodies then. NOT before.

Someone at work was asking me if I believed in Soul sleep the other day, and I do not... But I had never researched it very thoroughly. I know how God perceives time, because, my Spirit was taken up to the 2nd Heavens while in a coma (and for weeks after I awoke). I spoke with Jesus and was tested by Him. During that time I was able to move through time with a thought, and travel at speeds without limit. Not only was I able to move through time, but I was able to interact in the time that I was placed with the individuals around me. Time is not a hindrance at all to God. He created it. He lives outside it.

While I was in the coma, I saw souls headed to heaven and earth as they died... I also saw a man who was next to me in the Hospital walk into heaven. He was not headed to sleep, but rather was conscious as he took the Hand of our Lord and walked into heaven.

How can we think that a soul is not aware of heaven when we see this: Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Your understanding seems very foreign to me... I do not understand how any believer in the Lord of the resurrection and LIFE could believe something different than: 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Then he says: for we must all have our lives laid open at the Tribunal of Christ... for Judgement.

When Christ come on the clouds to gather together His elect, we will be Judged by Him. How does this equate to being unconscious before He comes?

Oh Dear brother... You have traveled down a path that has twisted so much of your understanding. I wish I could sit down face to face and show you another understanding that would make your head explode! There is a simple way to understand all of this, where every single scripture fits together like a COMPLETE puzzle. My heart goes out for you.

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

Randyk; I have been persecuted by so called 'brothers'. One threatened to tar and feather me! Must have been a good ole Southern boy! Many others have been very unpleasant and nasty at having their beliefs challenged. Especially when they find their ammunition box empty.

There are disobedient brothers, for sure.

Originally Posted by Keraz

I don't claim perfection, I have got it wrong before, I have been too quick to conclude matters, but often because of translation errors. I use Interlineal Scripture Analyzer and several translations to help to get it right.
Solipsistic? That's a new one, but it doesn't apply to me, as I do have several people that I can run things past, a peer review if you like. However it is only the ancient prophets, who I really conform to. What they say goes, for me!

The problem with that is, we do need community to interact in--not just Bible Study. We are to "submit to one another." Of course, the conclusions we come to must be between God and us. We have to answer to our own conscience.

We *all* have the Prophets to study and read. You are certainly not the only one who faithfully has done this! So this forum is a good place to bounce your ideas around. It doesn't help, however, to appear as if you're God's messenger to straighten up everyone else.

Re: Those who know what is right

It isn’t very pleasant to think that the Lord can control our thinking. It brings free will into question, but who are we? He is the Creator.

Someone made the comment that it seems as though God is playing something like a video game; setting up situations and watching the outcomes.
But of course, God cannot give the game away, all the non-Christian peoples must not know His plans and even with the so called Christians, it is estimated that there may be only 2% who are honestly faithful. The other 98% follow false doctrines and cults or just simply warm a pew for an hour or so per week, the rest of the time they lie about anything, steal if the opportunity offers, commit adultery, etc, etc.
So what can we do? At least, if you belong to this forum you are making an effort to gain understanding of the end times. However, everywhere around us, ideas and theories are put forward that have no sound scriptural basis. Outdated and biased translations are a serious handicap. One example is in Luke 21:36; ‘escape all these things’, more correctly translated is; ‘to pass safely through all that is to come’, so as not to contradict verse 35.
Of course belief in God and the Lord Jesus, true repentance of sins and fervent prayers are essential to become right with God.

From my studies of prophecy, I firmly believe that very soon there will be an event of a similar magnitude to the great flood of Noah’s time. This time, most of the world’s population will survive. To be among the survivors we must heed the warnings, be aware of what will happen and be prepared for it. But our main hope is to have absolute trust in the Lord’s salvation and His promises of protection. Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 41:15, Zechariah 9:15-16, 1 Peter 1:21, +

Re: Those who know what is right

Originally Posted by Keraz

It isn’t very pleasant to think that the Lord can control our thinking. It brings free will into question, but who are we? He is the Creator.

Someone made the comment that it seems as though God is playing something like a video game; setting up situations and watching the outcomes.
But of course, God cannot give the game away, all the non-Christian peoples must not know His plans and even with the so called Christians, it is estimated that there may be only 2% who are honestly faithful. The other 98% follow false doctrines and cults or just simply warm a pew for an hour or so per week, the rest of the time they lie about anything, steal if the opportunity offers, commit adultery, etc, etc.
So what can we do? At least, if you belong to this forum you are making an effort to gain understanding of the end times. However, everywhere around us, ideas and theories are put forward that have no sound scriptural basis. Outdated and biased translations are a serious handicap. One example is in Luke 21:36; ‘escape all these things’, more correctly translated is; ‘to pass safely through all that is to come’, so as not to contradict verse 35.
Of course belief in God and the Lord Jesus, true repentance of sins and fervent prayers are essential to become right with God.

From my studies of prophecy, I firmly believe that very soon there will be an event of a similar magnitude to the great flood of Noah’s time. This time, most of the world’s population will survive. To be among the survivors we must heed the warnings, be aware of what will happen and be prepared for it. But our main hope is to have absolute trust in the Lord’s salvation and His promises of protection. Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 41:15, Zechariah 9:15-16, 1 Peter 1:21, +

I agree with much of what you're saying. Of course we have to be careful and not fall into the trap of the depressed personality Elijah, who thought he was alone. God showed him there were thousands more that he didn't know about.

But yes, the number of *faithful Christians* is far lower than the polls indicate are born again Christians. This is what, I think, Jesus meant by "few there be who enter along the narrow path." These are "faithful Christians," and certainly what many on this forum aim to be.

I can't disagree with your cautious approach, though. The serpent is indeed "subtle."