I think it is interesting that Dickb came out of his delusional, psychotic cave to insert himself in an environment that is interested in scientific rigor and got the equivalent of being laughed out of the room. Think about this for a moment. What assumptions would I have to make to believe that my "research" is valid and valuable on a scientific blog? In his mind, he had to say something like, " my stuff is valid research and people need to know about it". (There were probably marketing and money thoughts too- hey livin in Hawaii ain't cheap.) In his delusional mind, he must believe that his garbage can stand up to real-world scrutiny, but it can't. The only room where he makes any sense to anyone is in a room of fellow AA delusionists – and probably not all of them.

SoberPJ

Wouldn't you know it…PARADISE RESEARCH PUBLICATIONS, INC. is at the same address as the Freedom Ranch School.. All that schooling, researching, recovering, publishing and Bible study must make that a real busy and crowded 2 bedroom condo.

The dude is a fraud of the first order.

Gotta hand it to him though, he is a shameless promoter that knows how to game the system. His blog is a sales tool, period. He makes claims that his books are the only way to know certain facts about AA. So, obviously, if you want to be in the know, you must buy them… AAAAAHHHHHHHHH !

pee-ess: the take-down of His Eminence (DICK b.) was well done; personally, i'd filed go[o]d old DICK in the same cabinet drawer with 'cheesecake danny' some time ago. DICK just keeps better records & happens to have a mildly better grasp of grammar & syntax.

joedrywall

I will second Speedy with his classification of Dick B. with Danny. The thing I object to most about such folks is that they believe that the exclusion of people equates to a more successful program. Dick has repeatedly hung out the 75-93% success rate of early AA(even though I have yet to see it and I will not buy one of his books), and Danny believes that folks like Jack Trimpey and the authors of this blog are doing a good job at driving people away from AA. Only have "the real alcoholics" in.

I guess I would have qualified as a MOTR member, not a REAL member, talk about stereotyping people.

Typical AA would consist of:

1. going to lots of meetings.

2.getting a sponsor

3. doing the steps.

4. reading the big book

5. carrying the message.

In other words the main purpose of AA is not on getting/staying sober, but rather upon indoctrination. If you start to count all the people who attend AA, then you look at how many folks actually did all five that I listed, then you could see why it is really exclusive.

Mike

New to this blog. Been exploring the online anti-AA community for a couple years now (Orange, morerevealed.com, Youtube sites). Just wanted to introduce myself and say hi.

Just a little background (not a "war story" or an "experience, strength and hope" session):

I was introduced to AA in 2002 after a DUI (I was a good little Catholic boy growing up who waited for his rebellious adolescence until his late teens and 20s and was definitely irresponsibly drinking too much and too often at that time) and I was in and out of the program for 5 or 6 years. Actually, my worst drinking was around the time of my DUI and thankfully I've never gotten back to that level again. If anything, my drinking tapered off gradually and now I can honestly say that drinking just isn't a big part of my life one way or another. I honestly can't remember the last time I drank too much or got drunk (probably 2+ years at least).

However, though AA seemed initially helpful (non-drinking place, useful platitudes and bromides, "love bombing" when I was new and many "sober" outings and gatherings) I've grown increasingly wary of them as time has moved on. I haven't come across sexual abuse DIRECTLY but I've heard plenty of shady stories and the puffed up old regulars and endless categorization of any and all behavior through an "alcoholic" lens gets very tiring to say the least. The whole thing is just so entirely unscientific yet they throw around words like "spiritual disease" (probably one of the most ridiculous concepts I've come across) and funnel all their recommended activity into obsessive "recovery". Many folks in these groups have truly frightening drinking stories but also abusive families, mental illness and psychological immaturity which at times can be astounding. I was simply a normal guy who fell into drinking during a bad spell in life and while in AA I got tired of being pressured to not only call myself an "alcoholic" (problem drinker and alcohol abuser at one time, yes, alcoholic, no) but to also view every problem in my life through that lens. I was tired of brow-beating, self-righteous old men who could barely manage their own lives telling me how to live mine. I was tired of sponsors DEMANDING my trust in them for my 4th and 5th steps without earning it. It was the blind leading the blind and despite the AA slogan, I DID find many groups to be "glum lots". As time went on, I'd hear the same small group of people talking about the same problems as years before while a never ending stream of "new-comers" (often from treatment facilities) would stream in and out the door. From time to time I saw fistfights, loud arguments, threats, and other disturbing behavior (stuff I virtually never came across even in the worst days of active drinking) while at the same time being told to "focus on your own recovery" and "some are sicker than others". I've tried to make sense of the archaic, sexist, bombastic, poorly written, contradictory "Big Book" while being told "every answer you'll ever need is contained within the first 164 pages." Basically, I've gotten sick of all the bullsh*t.

I write all this to say thanks for you and groups like you for being out there. It's tough to reign in bad habits, substance or otherwise, and it's in some ways just as hard to leave a controlling organization who promises "jails, institutions, and death" to all those who abandon it. My life hasn't been perfect since I've stopped going to AA regularly (still quietly stop by speaker's meetings every few months or so to see old faces and make sure nothing's changed there; it hasn't) but my path has steadily moved along and gotten better. I'm now in grad school now for my Master's while working full-time (going to cut my work hours soon to go to school full-time next semester). I have a wonderful (non-AA) girlfriend who's known me for almost 10 years and seen me grow with and without AA. I sometimes miss the easy (though conditional) companionship and I've noticed to build and maintain friendships and relationships in the "normie" world I have to think a little bigger than the black and white boxes of reality AA provides you with. I do wish there was more MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC research into addiction and dependency so that 12 step superstitions weren't the only tools available to so many people. Basically, I'm very lucky because my life got better because I stopped drinking like I was before (with or without my "Higher Power" or AA's help) and started growing up and acting a bit more responsibly. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this story and experience with drinking and AA and I'm glad there are places like this to share it.

Have a great day, everyone.

Mike

ez

Hey Mike, you have a great day as well, ok?

Rick045

@ joedrywall, I think many of those types simply want to be the big fish in a small pond. They may claim to care about success rates, but they are really terrified of losing control of their little fiefdoms. They would much rather be surrounded by a few acolytes than a bunch of infidels who might challenge their beliefs. These are the same ones who will gripe about those pamphlets being discussed on that other thread. They couldn't care less about anyone staying sober who doesn't do it their way.

and it’s in some ways just as hard to leave a controlling organization who promises “jails, institutions, and death” to all those who abandon it. My life hasn’t been perfect since I’ve stopped going to AA regularly… but my path has steadily moved along and gotten better.

One thing I've noticed, when people leave AA, is that they have forgotten that most people go through all the same things that AA has convinced its members are the exclusive burden of alcoholics: awkwardness in social situations, feeling like something's wrong, feeling depressed or anxious, impatience… All perfectly normal things, that are just part of being a human being on this planet.

All this insistence that there's a big difference between alkies and normies adds further trepidation to leaving AA… They should add "isolation" to the "jails, institutions or death" mantra.

I hope you stick around! (There are a couple of other Mikes around here — I think we're going to have to give all you Mikes different color hats or something).

I wanted to thank everyone for their support and all of the great information that they provide. In the time that I have been writing on AC I have experienced censorship of articles and outright bias from the editors. They removed my original posting of "The Alcoholics Anonymous Super Guru" because it was originally named "Letter to Dick B: Alcoholics Anonymous Super Guru" Another article was “Letter to Patricia Sicilia” who is a writer on AC who has railed against me with comments filled with her cult beliefs. This article was censored because I openly wrote and proved how she is an AA cult member.

It is funny because I am hard on religion in most forms, but the AA cult seems to be a worse adversary than any other religious organization. For instance, I have consistently attacked Creationism and Islamic Faith and have received almost no threats or hate mail. But when it comes to AA, I have entire files of hate mail.

Twelve Steppers love to speak-out and defend their cult (which breaks their anonymity, if there is such a thing) but when you put their names in titles of articles they immediately resort to censorship. Look at Dick B., how he is so quick to leave comments on my articles trying to advertise his nonsense, yet maintains complete lack of transparency when it comes to his claims.

I detest censorship in most of its forms, it is my belief that it undermines democratic process, scientific investigation, and honesty in general. The days of Alcoholics Anonymous members carrying on these types of campaigns, to stop scientific inquiry, are slowly winding down. More and more professionals are able to speak without fear of reprisal as one of the greatest lies is slowly exposed. When people think of cults, they often think of the People’s Temple at Jonestown and the atrocity of nearly 1000 deaths. Albeit this is a tragedy, when you think of the number of lives that have been lost by sentencing people to twelve step cult therapy over the last 50 years is disgusting and incomprehensible. When people think of the twelve steps they immediately think of alcoholics and addicts, but in truth there are many other victim groups that have been exposed to this terrible thinking. How many young girls have been sentenced to Over Eaters Anonymous and similar twelve step groups for treatment of anorexia, bulimia, and eating problems? How many people have died after sitting in meeting after meeting, trying to figure out their character defects, and how to apologize to their rapists? For me the good fight is not just the war on Alcoholics Anonymous but is the battle to end twelve step coercion and end the practice of victimizing sick people. I thank all of you for your support and honesty.

humanspirit

@Mike

Your post was all the more interesting for not being a horror story but just an account about how the whole damn thing can drag down a normal human being who once used to drink too much. I mean, how long are people supposed to put up with this dreary and weird environment? (Well, for ever as far as steppers are concerned, I suppose). We've talked about this on here before, but even if nothing terrible has happened to you in AA, it is an organization that really does not want people to 'recover' and get on with their lives. This is almost as bad as outright abuse in some ways, especially for young people with their whole lives ahead of them.

You were told to 'concentrate on your recovery' and ignore all the disturbing things that were going on around you. Well, guess what,? You have 'recovered'. You don't have a disease and never did have. You once drank far too much, and now you don't. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

The good news is that though you will be labelled an "alcoholic" if you go anywhere near an AA meeting, if you stop drinking or go back to moderate drinking without the steps, everyone in AA will say you weren't an alcoholic to start with! So that's your problem solved! (Well, they might say other things too, like that you are in denial or something, but fuck that.)

You say "Basically, I’m very lucky because my life got better because I stopped drinking like I was before (with or without my “Higher Power” or AA’s help) and started growing up and acting a bit more responsibly."

This is so true. This is the story of many people who have been told they are 'diseased alcoholics' for life by AA but just grow out of it or otherwise decide to stop or cut down on their own . Or something. This doesn't mean to say that alcohol addiction isn't a serious problem for many people – just that the AA philosophy does not allow for (and is positively hostile towards) anyone who manages to deal with it on their own.

Btw, the big secret of AA is that the 12 steps and Big Book have absolutely nothing to do with overcoming addiction or stopping drinking! (Maybe if you can find any evidence that they are, please let us know!)

Thanks for your post, and like ftg, I hope you'll come back here again.

Ftg – Yes, different coloured hats for different Mikes might be an idea 🙂 !

DeConstructor

@vannoir

EXACTLY!!

The AA faith, and its business arm, the recovery industry cartel should more rightly be called the "American Holocaust" because of the tsunami of blood they have shed by unfortunaltely recieving unearned admiration and undeserved credibility.

In conjunction with the fact that the majority of AA newcomers are forced by US courts, with specific instructions for sentencing promoted to judges by corporate AA, there is NO excuse for this organization and their very toxic people to be able to hide behind anonymity.

When a US court orders these people to participate and convert to the AA faith, with the known threat of sexual predators, such as the widely publicized Midtown Q Group, and countless others, that US court is in fact sentencing people to a de facto systematic and organized rape.

This does not include those individuals forced to the AA faith by employers, social services detemining child custody issues, and organ transplant teams threatening the withholding of organ transplants for failing to participate and convert to the AA faith.

The AA faith is truly the American Taliban.

The AA faith is also inexcusable and indefensible, so the membership and leadership continue to just shout their propaganda louder, and make personal attacks against anyone who dares to question why the emporer has no clothes.

Thankyou for writing about the very serious concerns that many of us in the anti and XA community would like to see better publicized.

speedy0314

@ DeConstructor:

ummm … go a little overboard on the Wheaties this morning, old sod?

no insult intended here, but you're verging awfully close to "Godwin's Law" with the 'AA = American Taliban' thing. don't empower these nitwits any more than necessary. they don't have the organizational skills or commitment level of a 'Taliban'.

they certainly don't have the brains.

AA is … bulls**t on stick deep-fried & covered in [g]OD™. but approximately 1.5 million members here in the U.S. does not a Taliban make, my friend. just an vastly extended, holier-than-thou version of 'The Three Stooges'.

pick two fingers,

speedy

humanspirit

@vannoir

Your articles are excellent and say all the right things. BUT there seems to be little point in directing your energies against someone like Dick B. No-one outside AA or anti-AA circles will have heard of him. He's completely insignificant (and anyway is unlikely to desist in his near-psychotic ramblings).

The main thing, surely, is to expose this racket to the wider public, who are genuinely unaware of what is going on and have been lulled into some sense of complacency that somehow alcoholics and addicts are being 'taken care of.'. You seem to have the writing skills and commitment necessary to do that. I would say, don't waste that on lost causes like arguing with the likes of Dick B. on little-known websites. Get your voice heard in the mainstream media.

I hope this doesn't come across as unsympathetic – I'm really not. But I feel we're all preaching to the converted here when the whole point should be to expose the 'emperor's clothes' to the wider public. We all know how scandalous the 12-step racket is – the challenge is to 'carry this message' to everyone.

Yours HS (occasionally fargalaxy 🙂 )

tintop

speedy is right in that AA is not an unstoppable juggernaut. It is, basically, an incompetent nothing. 1.5 million weak; does not stop drunkism; does not lead people to 'Gawwwwddd. basically, it is warehouse for undesirables; provides treatment centers with a ready made doctrine; provides those treatment centers with low cost employees.

AA is doing a fine farkle job.

DeConstructor

@Speedy-

I came within hours of being terminated from my career for failing to attend and convert to the AA faith.

This was due to the misactions of a counselor, who according to the Attorney General of the State of Kansas, was totally unlicensed, working for Humana/CorpHealth/LifeSynch that was basically the mutt cross of Dickb, McGowpup, and Tony C.

At the time I was being counseled personally by Jack Trimpey himself, who I consider to be the worlds foremost expert on addiction.

This unethical counselor, claimed in writing that "Rational Recovery has nothing of benefit for anyone in recovery"

Yes, I have an attitude. Yes my case will be released at some future point in time for the entire world to read, and yes I will name all names and corporations.

And yes it is my goal to deconstruct the recovery industry.

humanspirit

Deconstructor "US court is in fact sentencing people to a de facto systematic and organized rape."

I usually agree with almost all of what you say, Decon, but having visited Bosnia last year and having talked to women there for whom this actually was a literal reality, I'll have to disagree in this case. What goes on in AA doesn't need any exaggeration – the truth about it is enough.

SoberPJ

The truth about the possibility of making changes to a $14 Billion well-entrenched industrial ecosystem is somewhat bleak with the current mechanisms. A few websites, a few blogs, an independent writer in the media here and there, a few low circulation books, and a few industry experts aren't going to make any lasting effect on the juggernaut. We are like a fly buzzing around the light that was left on in the basement. Nobody really hears us, and even if they did, most people just don't care that much. It is not a mainstream issue. It probably should be, because so many people are affected, but it is not. Sad, but true.

We will never exact change without organization and that organization has to provide incontrovertible proof that harm is being done and then loudly demand, in very specific ways, what needs to change. And, expect a protracted battle for even minor changes. Which means, lawyers, courts and possible legislation and lots of trash talkin. That's just the way it is. Oh, and claims like "the AA faith is truly the American Taliban" can't quite be in the platform of the organization, or, well, most folks may not take it too seriously.

I'm grateful for this site and others, because it helped me wake up from my AA slumber before it was waaay too late to get my life back. And, having done marketing on a global scale and realize the power of the internet, I do sit back and fantasize about what type of long term, high-impact campaign might wake up the world to the truth about AA – and I have some doozies. But, they all require organization to be truly effective, and organizations need a figure head and contributors and, well, money. Lots and lots of money. And courage. Like Van said " But when it comes to AA, I have entire files of hate mail." Yep, that seems to be how some AA's "debate the issues." When truly threatened, some people will most likely get dangerous – they already do it today for far less than trying to kill their precious program. Looking down the barrel of the serenity pistol a while back kind of took us all by surprise. And that was from simply exposing one wacko – try messin with a million of them ! One could expect way more of that if the organization starts to look like its winning something that AA's value – like changing their bible or exposing their bogus finances or having insurance companies deny any country club "treatment" after like 15 times.

Yep, it's a tough place to be. Knowing that something is so wrong, yet being somewhat impotent to really change it because it is so large, secretive and possibly dangerously retaliatory. It more closely resembles dealing with the mob than dealing with a benign "fellowship". I'm quite confident that Bill WIlson wasn't smart enough to arrange the organization they way it is. But somebody knew that if it got big enough and entrenched in society, it would be extremely hard to remove the talons. L. Ron Hubbard knew the same thing, so I wonder if there is some kind of " how to propogate a religion they can never kill" instruction manual out there somewhere.

In the meantime, I'll just hang out here and take swipes at folks like DickB and interject when I want and even support somebody that posts about how they either just left AA or want to but can't. It's good therapy.

Primrose

Mike, could you cut and post your piece to, 'Why I left AA'? I think there is a big drop off from the cult at around 5-7 years. Would you agree? There must come a point when it just does not make sense. Look forward to hearing more from you. How is morale in the rooms? I am curious about what the hardliner oldtimers think about the growing criticisms? I suppose they don't' read it and pretend criticism doesn't exist.

Vannoir, what is the nature of the protest letters from cult members? Can we read them?

I believe the Scientologists get pretty touchy when investigated. It is my personal experience that the reaction to criticism of the cult in a cult member is completely disproportionate.

Hs says (rightly) that the movement needs to be exposed in the press. I think that there are probably lots of people currently in AA who haven't found the orange papers, etc. Could we invite some AAs to come and have a chat with us on this site?

DeConstructor

I apologize if I have offended anyone.

I have a bit of an attitude towards the AA faith.

vannoir

@ Humanspirit

Part of the reason that I chose to write on Associated Content is for the fact that it is a new audience that is uninvolved in the treatment industry. The treatment industry and AA rely on the fact that the average person is unaware of the horrors that take place in recovery. The trouble with sites that specialize in the subject matter is that they only reach a portion of the intended audience. They serve a great purpose with educating individuals who are on the fence with twelve step treatment and for helping those that walk away from the cult, but they do not reach the other stakeholders in the treatment industry. Namely, the potential addicts, alcoholics, and twelve step members. At some point many individuals will be faced with dealing with an addiction or behavioral disorder that is either their own or someone they know. For this reason, I think that it is important to break the chain of common assumption and knowledge that twelve step treatments is even an option for dealing with these problems. In a sense, my strategy is preventative in that I hope to alter the preconceived notions of laypersons with regard to AA and twelve step treatment. Here is one of letters that I feel shows the success of my strategy:

Dear Mr. Van Noir,

Thank you for discussing the dangers of Alcoholics Anonymous. I had no idea that Alcoholics Anonymous was that bad? My daughter has been struggling with drugs for two years and I kept telling her to go to meetings. Now Im glad she didn’t listen. She has been going to therapy for the last month, seeing a psychologist and she seems to be doing a lot better. I don’t know what I would’ve done if she had been raped having done what I was telling her to.

The other problem with mainstream media is that it is not always interested in hearing about problems of this nature, frankly because they know it does not interest most people. (Oh, it’s big news when it comes to Lindsay Lohan, but only secondary to the fact that she is a celebrity train wreck.) I also think that Associated Content has real potential to grow much larger than its current state and thus reach a wider audience. Since Yahoo bought the site, there have been significant improvements made. But I do agree that getting the word out should be the major focus for us all.

Good job, Van Noir, and Deconstructor, I don't mind your metaphors. 12 stepping is pretty severe as psychological violence, and I think Van Noir is right that it's part of a broader ideological movement. I wish it WERE fringe, but unfortunately it is mainstream.

AnnaZed

Sober PJ, I hear ya, I know what you mean. I keep thinking that what needs to happen is a spectacular AA related crime, yet as we have seen on this site there are so many and no one thinks anything of it. Really if the Petit family murders didn't draw some fire to AA what would? I think that most people do assume that AA is full of low-lifes and until it happens to their family that someone gets coerced to go there they think nothing of it. Even then they think that there are meetings for people who aren't parolees in better parts of town etc. or they think that there must be. People just don't get it.

I smell AA all over the Kyron Horman case and the weird step-mother with her coven of female friends getting disposable phones to communicate with her and refusing to cooperate with the police inquiry, but that hasn't exploded, yet.

Rick045

@SoberPJ wrote, "Yep, it’s a tough place to be. Knowing that something is so wrong, yet being somewhat impotent to really change it because it is so large, secretive and possibly dangerously retaliatory. It more closely resembles dealing with the mob than dealing with a benign “fellowship”. I’m quite confident that Bill WIlson wasn’t smart enough to arrange the organization they way it is."

Bill had to have had plenty of help by the time he got around to writing the traditions, and especially the AA service manual. He may have had the cleverness of a good con-artist, but he wasn't smart enough to create those contrivances on his own. Anonymity itself is the AA equivalent of omerta, especially when combined with the rest of those twelve traditions.

"Privately, we can inform Tradition-violators that they are out of order. When they persist, we can follow up by using such other resources of persuasion as we may have, and these are often considerable. Manifested in this fashion, a persistent firmness will often bring about the desired result."

I do not believe there is a single thing that can happen that will get anyone's attention. Like you said, Anna, if the Petit family didn't do it, what will? If the Midtown group didn't…

Also, Kaine Horman just came out and called his wife an alcoholic. And here's a little AA connection for you: Do you remember the guy that Terri Horman was screwing around with after Kyron went missing? The one she was "sexting" with? His name is Michael Cook, and he claimed to have been a high school friend of Kaine's — which would lead one to believe that they had been friends since high school. But it turned out that Kaine hadn't even seen him since high school… So how did he end up getting so involved in this so quickly, and then just as quickly getting so deeply involved with Terri (after Kaine left the family home)? That's weird, isn't it?

He's there to support his old pal who just lost his boy, but ends up in bed with the guy's wife, after his wife becomes the target of the investigation? It's too fucked up. Where did he come from?

I just looked up his facebook, and his profile quote is "One day at a time." And the first thing in his list of "Likes" is an outfit called "Steps to Recovery".

By the way, my kid is in the same school district with kyron, and I actually received the robocall announcing that the boy never made it home from school that day — that was a horrible call to get. Anyway, it's all really front and center around here.

AnnaZed

Good Lord ftg, I did not realize that you were in that area, how sad and difficult it must be to discuss this with your child, to contemplate this, to know that it has occurred near where you live.

I am all over Michael Cook and and certain that he hooked up with insane Terri Horman at AA, as did DeeDee Spicher and the rest of that crew of psycho females that clustered around Terri even after it became obvious to anyone with a brain that she certainly had something to do with the disappearance of this child and that most likely she murdered him.

That is PURE AA weird inappropriate loyalties, love of drama, very inappropriate drunken over-the-top sexual expression, an omerta-like (thanks Ricj045!) secrecy about things that really truly are the business of law enforcement, relationships with people who don't know you at all but whom you consider to be your friends. The list goes on and on and Mrs. Horman played those AA idiots like a musical instrument, I am sure of that.

This involves the disappearance and probable MURDER OF A SMALL CHILD and these idiots still cling to the bullshit "anonymity" of AA I am absolutely certain of that. Fuck every single one of them and the horses that they rode in on. The maddening thing is that I'll wager that both local media and even law-enforcement (even the FBI) tip-toe around AA's "traditions."