he is probly 1 in a gazibillion who is the least jealous about that kind of stuff. Shoot someone could be groping me and he wouldn't bat and eyelash. I have even asked him in the past to help when a guy got to friendly. he was like honey ... you do not need my help. You are a big girl and perfectly well to handle the situation. I will jump in if there is a need and that you could have handled. Thank goodness! LOL I have a great guy. He is great at reading people too. AND he has helped me so much with building my self esteem. Love Him!

but he HATE/LOATHES dance. Now give him football, golf, nascar ...he is happier than a pig in poo. LOL

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Ah. Mine's the same way. About the non-jealousy. He's not into sports so much, though.

I've danced with him. Such a sweetheart; such a gentleman. (Welcome to the Cornutt Appreciation Society...be prepared to fight F!) Maybe if we gang up on him--and ask him to dance! (See, mods, it's on topic!)--we can get him to travel up this way!

Once I started to get better, I started noticing that R didn't get asked to dance very much. I asked my instructor about it. She said that most of the guys didn't ask R to dance because they were intimidated by her. That kind of blew me away. Heck, I was a bit intimidated too the first time I asked her, but I couldn't have asked for a better partner that time or any of the subsequent dances I had had with her. So after that, I made it a point to ask her more.

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This got a lot easier for me when I realized that, if the really great followers showed up at socials, there was no need to be as good as them -- just a better dance partner than their chairs. So I worked for a few months to achieve that much proficiency, and started asking them to dance (the really great followers, not the chairs). But, with unfamiliar/popular/world-class followers, I won't ask more than once or twice per evening unless they ask me, too.

Anyway, I don't think that was really the problem. What was the problem? I'm not sure, but I think it goes like this: Guys hate looking uncool, especially in front of women. If a guy asks a more advanced women to dance, than according to the modern "cool" code, he has placed himself in a situation where he is not in control, which is inherently uncool.

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If I'm clever, then the trophy partners think I'm cool because they see me dance with beginners, and the beginners think I'm cool because they see me dance with trophy partners, right? (I'm mostly kidding and mostly don't care if I'm cool.)

From my experience:

On the original topic, I think there are good reasons that asking should go both ways. Yes, there's etiquette for dealing with relative strangers at social events, but manners are often judged subjectively in the context of personal relationships. We interact with fellow-dancers repeatedly over time, and the community is not all that large. Somehow, when, "I want to dance with you," is communicated in each direction regularly, it's easier to build healthy social dance relationships and have fun with partners who are encountered again and again. Not every interaction turns into a good dance relationship, but it's best to keep looking and grow them when the opportunity is there. It's worse than useless to focus on the interactions that don't help with that.

For the new leader or follower: Yes, it's painful starting out without such relationships. Yes, it's lousy to be rejected. Yes, it's tough to ask for a dance (especially the first 1,000 times). Yes, it's worth getting over all that -- which yes, will take time, but yes, there are kind folks who will help. Find those kind folks, or at least let them find you!

I found these to be useful resources when I was dealing with my early dance-related frustrations:

Reading some of the responses to this thread has been very touching. I must say that when I was a newbie, nearly every woman I ever asked to dance, no matter how advanced, was very helpful and understanding. I encountered a few snobs, but only a few. And I know what fasc is talking about, although I will have to admit I don't understand it at all. When I started, there used to be an advanced lady dancer at our studio that I'll call R. The third or fourth party I went to, when I was first starting to work up the courage to ask women other than my DW or our instructor, I asked R to do a rumba with me. It was kind of embarassing, because I knew she was an advanced dancer, and my own dancing was very awkward. I could tell, and she could tell, and I could tell that she could tell. After my third or fourth apology over a bad lead, she told me not to worry about it and just enjoy the dance, and after the song was over, she'd show me what I was missing. And she did.

Once I started to get better, I started noticing that R didn't get asked to dance very much. I asked my instructor about it. She said that most of the guys didn't ask R to dance because they were intimidated by her. That kind of blew me away. Heck, I was a bit intimidated too the first time I asked her, but I couldn't have asked for a better partner that time or any of the subsequent dances I had had with her. So after that, I made it a point to ask her more. One evening, there was a younger newbie at the studio, and I happened to be standing near him as he was bemoaning the lack of women to dance with. I went to him, pointed out R to him, and asked him, "Why don't you ask her? She's a great dancer". (She was about my age, so older than him, but still a fine dancer and quite attractive besides.) He did ask her, but I heard him later talking about how he didn't like dancing with "old women." Was I that immature when I was his age? I hope not. :headwall:

Anyway, I don't think that was really the problem. What was the problem? I'm not sure, but I think it goes like this: Guys hate looking uncool, especially in front of women. If a guy asks a more advanced women to dance, than according to the modern "cool" code, he has placed himself in a situation where he is not in control, which is inherently uncool. Of course, this means never learning anything new. I personally have had most of the best moments of my life, both personal and professional, when I threw myself into a situation where I was completely over my head -- as I was when I started dancing in the first place. Is there some social prohibition against taking risks these days? I think so. Failure, even momentary setback, isn't tolerated in a lot of social circles these days. Add to that the "man-code" thing that says that dancing is un-manly to begin with, and there you are.

The entirely unsatisfactory result: Women like Fasc and Sam, who are great dancers and wonderful ladies, can't get asked for dances. I think maybe I need to do a tour of Jersey and Chicago, where I go to dance studios and kick some butts. If any guy wants to say I'm not a Real Man, then, well, I've got 6' 220 lbs. that says otherwise. stink it up, guys. If you don't, I'm going to dance with all of your women. :bouncy:

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I am quoting this whole post b/c it deserves to be unedited...cornutt ...I love you...a real man gets over his ego, sucks it up, and is strong enough to persevere through a bit of an ego-buster...thank you...it make shaving to leave the party early or sit through a wlatz while everyother lady in the studio is on the floor...a tiny bit more bearable

It turns our that because there are normally a lot of women, they do a lot of the asking and I had become used to that.

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I too got used to never asking but not because of gender imbalance. In our (balanced) AT practise the teachers have written on the wall that women are allowed to invite. As a result the invites are issued 50/50 overall. And as I like to sit half of the time (because I'm sweating) I just stopped inviting the followers.

It's also more comfortable when you're relieved from this burden (scanning the potential partners for next song, standing up, making eye contact, walking, asking, possibly getting a no), somehow it became second nature and I'm now too lazy to invite, even in regular milongas where there is no here-women-can-invite sign on the wall.

Reading some of the stories here has been interesting. I have never encountered any of the rejections some people are discussing, but then the dances I go to tend to be the same group of people and we all know each other. The only time I have ever rejected a dance request or been rejected was because the person didn't know the dance or had just finished several dances and needed a break.

I'm just the type of person that if someone asks me to dance, I make myself get up and dance even if I'm tired. I've only ever turned down one woman who asked me to dance a dance I knew, and that's because I was just exhausted and needed a break (there were a lot more women than men and we men were in high demand).

Well, as far as jerks go - I had posted a question on etiquette in the AT forum. I have a lot of experience with different types of dance but I had just started AT a month ago. Thanks to ballroom and ballet, I was able to learn fairly quickly and have a vocabulary of some basic movements and figures. In my second ever class in AT there was a gentleman there - like cornut, I will call him R. R has been dancing AT for 2 years now and was taking the class as a *******er course. R refused to dance with anyone but the teacher. He danced with me once just enough to appease the instructor and then shunned me to go dance with a woman who was also taking the class as a *******er course, staying with her the entire evening. Recently, R has had no choice but to dance with me because it has dwindled down to a 4 person class. now that I am somewhat capable, he is a bit better about the whole dance thing but tries to lead me into things I've never even heard of and gets mad when I don't provide a correct follow. Not Cool. I think as part of social dancing, a course on etiquette should be mandatory.

Hee--if I didn't go to my studio's events, I wouldn't have ANY social life at all! (I am just not a party person in general, except where my stuidio peeps are concerned. And now we'll find out if either of my pros are reading this thread because they'll have to say something about my intentionally ironic use of the word "peeps".) I go to the studio near where I live, I sometimes go to our other studio, I don't do the nightclub parties we're associated with and I don't go anywhere else. (Largely because my one experience at the nightclub was pure hell. Loud, dancing was awful, and I

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<lol> I totally agree. At least on the socials. Not sure if I agree with your classification of merengue as a dance.

as I can't stand WCS, salsa, or merengue, about 70% of the dances were right out.)

I think if I go back to the original question, it is a cultural and age thing. I would have no hesitation to ask a man but there are others men and women who will sit all night rather than get up to ask. I am happy I can be pro-active.

i have found the diffrerences to be cultural more than age-related, especially if the woman was raised with a traditonal "southern sensibility. i got exposed to it about 10 years ago. someone introduced me to a girl from nashville and we had a wonderful dance together. later that evening, she came over to where i was sitting, sat down next to me (there were at least 10-15 other seats she could have chosen) without making eye contact, shoulder turned away, her hands in her lap and let out an audible sigh. it was so cute! we spent most of the rest of the evening dancing together.

a similar thing happened this past weekend at a blues dance. a girl i had danced with earlier in the evening came over next to me, looked at me, and then looked away. i asked her to dance, but i wouldn't have done so if she had not initiated things with her actions. but technically, i verbally asked her to dance.

i have found the diffrerences to be cultural more than age-related, especially if the woman was raised with a traditonal "southern sensibility. i got exposed to it about 10 years ago. someone introduced me to a girl from nashville and we had a wonderful dance together. later that evening, she came over to where i was sitting, sat down next to me (there were at least 10-15 other seats she could have chosen) without making eye contact, shoulder turned away, her hands in her lap and let out an audible sigh. it was so cute! we spent most of the rest of the evening dancing together.

a similar thing happened this past weekend at a blues dance. a girl i had danced with earlier in the evening came over next to me, looked at me, and then looked away. i asked her to dance, but i wouldn't have done so if she had not initiated things with her actions. but technically, i verbally asked her to dance.

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Those are kind of funny. In both cases the women obviously wanted to dance with you, but because it wasn't "proper" to ask you, they had to play this game to get your attention. Luckily for them you weren't the typical male and oblivious to their hints.

Sure, sometimes the games are fun and cute, but I suspect that the ladies miss out on a lot of dances because of dense males. It makes a whole lot more sense if the ladies would just ask.

I suspect that the ladies miss out on a lot of dances because of dense males. It makes a whole lot more sense if the ladies would just ask.

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lol...well-said.

unless i'm in a mellow, interior sort of mood, or i'm completely new to a venue, i try to bring a bit of a mindset of being hospitable and invitational when i go to a social...as if it were my own place, even tho it's not. i think that contributes to a sense of welcome. and so i frequently am asking men to dance whom i've never met before. and thank goodness for that...i would have missed some very nice dances if i hadn't done so.

there was one gentleman i asked a couple times this past weekend, pulled him away from his place sitting & leaning against the furthest wall. "it's a travesty you're not on the dance floor!" i told him. and it was.

... I suspect that the ladies miss out on a lot of dances because of dense males ...

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

Truely, I have always been slow to pick up on a woman's hints (especially in my youth, before I danced). In my case I think a big factor was that my level of self esteem led me not to expect any hints to be directed toward me. Not expecting any, I'm sure I missed a more than a few.

This isn't so much of a problem for me anymore, especially at dances. But at the socials I frequent, I should have a reputation of trying to get in at least one dance with as many followers as possible (unless I'm with my LW, in which case, she comes first). The followers who recognize that would have little reason to hint that they want to dance with me -- they know their turn is coming.

Nonetheless, I'm always happy when I'm asked by a follower and agree that more women should fee free to ask for dances.

I think women asking men to dance is great. It's less so when women ask a man to dance only when he's the best dancer in the room. It's not so good when women only ask guys half their age to dance and stalk them around the dance floor.