I don't think there's anything wrong with posting spells online. Firstly, most of that sort of spell contains enough "an it harm none!" clauses and stuff within the spell that it's unlikely that anything bad would happen. The worst sort of thing would be that they'd knock over a candle and burn the house down and that can happen WITHOUT a spell.

Mostly I think the type of person those sites are trying to protect - the bumbling little fluffy bunny type, the dabbler, etc - doesn't understand the important part: the intent and focus of energy and all that you need to make the spell work. So they can't get into TOO much trouble. (I had a conversation with a young'un recently, who had tried a few spells and apparently none of them had worked, so she wanted to know if I knew any "real" spells to help her.)

As long as it had some sort of "READ THIS FIRST" thing I don't think there's a problem. If someone pisses off a deity, then they're not showing them proper respect, and a lesson in that is important lest they take their gods for granted!

The law, as I pointed out, sais differently. There are more than just a hand ful of sites that have been forced off line, and prosecuted, in Europe.

Firstly, most of that sort of spell contains enough "an it harm none!" clauses and stuff within the spell that it's unlikely that anything bad would happen. The worst sort of thing would be that they'd knock over a candle and burn the house down and that can happen WITHOUT a spell.

Explain that to a judge, who is also an elder in his local Sunday bash at the church, regularly gets up on the stage to harangue the audience about how good they are and how bad we are, and thinks choir boys may be an "interesting change".

And MORE to the point, thinks we are all totaly, and possibly dangerously psychopathic any way.

Mostly I think the type of person those sites are trying to protect - the bumbling little fluffy bunny type, the dabbler, etc - doesn't understand the important part: the intent and focus of energy and all that you need to make the spell work. So they can't get into TOO much trouble.

See my last comment.

As long as it had some sort of "READ THIS FIRST" thing I don't think there's a problem. If someone pisses off a deity, then they're not showing them proper respect, and a lesson in that is important lest they take their gods for granted!

You mean like tobacco companys do?

=D> THAT worked didn't it?

How many millions are they getting sued for, regardless of warnings?

You are dealing with the law here, not trying to convince your wee niece she wants to eat all her greens.

Well, I don't live in Europe Pardon me. My country tends to be rather accepting. The anti-gay marriage rallies held by a church a couple of years ago were almost universally condemned here. (People called them Nazis. It became rather heated.) We have a transvestite, a rastafarian and an openly gay man all in parliament. Whatever a judge thinks, it's up to the jury, and the jury will be made up of enough different people that there's no way freedom of speech can be snuffed. (There would be marches against the government if that sort of thing happened here. We like our freedom of speech.)

Also, those people who sue tobacco companies annoy me. They're like those people who spill hot coffee on themselves at McDonalds and then sue McDonalds. It's not McDonald's fault that you're a clumsy fool who doesn't expect coffee to be hot. Stop trying to be a money grabber. Someone tried that thing with cigarettes here recently and failed. Her argument was that she started smoking before she knew they were dangerous and then lacked enough willpower to stop. Her family sued after her death. No one was very impressed. I have no patience with people like that. Disclaimers exist for a reason. If they can't read they have only themselves to blame.

I don't have a neice, but if I did, I would feed her a LOT of sugar and caffeine and buy her a drum set. (What's the point in having a neice if you can't spoil her in ways that will drive her parents crazy? )

Insert long and painful rant on freedom of speech here. Then insert equally long rant on how various european laws need to be amended in some way. Wait, does that mean there are still laws against sodomy in europe? .... I think I need to go lie down.

Windwalker, you said you lived in New Zealand right? I'm gonna move there now. Here in the US they used to make a big deal of having freedom of speech, and the right to pursue happiness and whatnot, but that's kind of gone by the wayside since W has been in office.

And yes, people (primarily Americans) will sue over the dumbest things just to get money.

British, New Zealand and to some extent Australian and Canadian law are more or less interchangable.
Any barristers office in U.K, has the "New Zealand law reports" next to the U.K equivalent. Both countrys laws can be quoted as case law in the other.
With the exception of those laws taken into U.K from the E.U.

Whatever a judge thinks, it's up to the jury,

Isn't theory wonderful. "Judges findings" and "judges directions" spring to mind. Also, the jury have no say what so ever in the sentence. Only the finding of guilt or innocence, plus, in Scotland, "not proven".
If the judge throws a wobly and sentences some one to life in prison for illegal parking, there is NOTHING the jury can do. Even to try carrys a possible sentence of life in prison for contempt of court.

Besides this, the case you mention in your first post is a civil law case and DOES NOT HAVE A JURY.

In fact it does not even need a "Judges panel". ONE judge has the authority to decide.

and the jury will be made up of enough different people that there's no way freedom of speech can be snuffed.

See comment above.

Also, those people who sue tobacco companies annoy me. They're like those people who spill hot coffee on themselves at McDonalds and then sue McDonalds. It's not McDonald's fault that you're a clumsy fool who doesn't expect coffee to be hot. Stop trying to be a money grabber.

THAT I agree with totaly.

I don't have a neice, but if I did, I would feed her a LOT of sugar and caffeine and buy her a drum set. (What's the point in having a neice if you can't spoil her in ways that will drive her parents crazy? )

I got my Nephews trumpets for thier birthdays, both early December, and tin drums for Jule.

Wait, does that mean there are still laws against sodomy in europe?

Parts of Europe certainly. And even in U.K the laws are still "on the books".
"Offences against the person act", It also alows people to be arrested and prosecuted in consenting sado-masochistic acts!
The last I heard was about five years ago, when the police raided a place on suspicion of drugs. Instead they walked in on a gay sado-masochism party. twenty people were arrested and prosecuted. One, I believe has still got five years in jail to serve.

Grumpy wrote:What's the deal with (primarily) Wiccan forums that absolutely and rabidly forbid the exchange of, requests for, or posting of spells? I just don't get the point. I've run into a number of them, and none of them happen to say WHY in the huge font-ed pages laying down the law. Are they afraid someone will spill initiated-tradition secrets or something?

Anybody know? Just curious...

If the querants knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have to ask for spells.

Haha fair enough Sile. But I'm all up for putting all the information out there and letting people deal with it. Would I be called an information anarchist?

And further to the sideline conversation on about p3 on this post - in my experience you only hear of people being prosecuted for spellwork or mediumship in (Western) Europe if they are taking a lot of money from people and demand money to remove 'curses' etc. They probably are swindling frauds, and would be treated the same as a chemist selling marbles as heart medicine pills. There probably is a law that says you have show a disclaimer, but then they put disclaimers on everything "putting cheese frequently into your eyes causes blindness. warning cheese may cause blindness".

Max wrote:Haha fair enough Sile. But I'm all up for putting all the information out there and letting people deal with it. Would I be called an information anarchist?

What information do they need, other than how to attune to energy, shape it and send it? Everything else is just to help focus. All those long lists of ingredients and rituals are useless unless you know the basic techniques, thus rendering a forum in which to request spells null and void, surely?

In addition to which, what I might use to help my focus could be different that what another person might use, e.g. some use the colour green for money (USA?), whereas I use gold.

What information do they need, other than how to attune to energy, shape it and send it?

Well I agree with you. Absolutely.

But the only way you really know that "everything else is just to help focus", or to worship, is to look at all the information in its entirety and make comparisons. For example, I only learned the other day that some people choose their elemental directions on their surrounding geography by reading this board! Another way I could have learnt that is by reading several different records of rituals and noticing the differences. You see what other people can do and then you shape it to your own beliefs or practices. You can perform a ritual (devotional or spells) without seeing an example, but it may be more informed if you read about it first.

It's helpful to have the information out there, not because they're needed, but because they're a different perspective.

Yes, you have to know how to attune the energy and such before it's of any use to you, but I more enjoy seeing how somebody else has thought about it.

I tend to think highly outside the box, usually in gaming, and thus I tend to come up with uses for the spells that nobody else would think of? Do I use the same out of the box thinking in my spellwork? You betcha!

By seeing what somebody else has done, I can work back to the original kernel of the idea, a thought or connection I may not have realized otherwise is born, and I can then alter it to my whims and change what is needed to match me.

Perhaps a less susinct answer, but still useful in seeing how my mind works I hope!

Trying to create a world, even in words, is good occupational therapy for lunatics who think they're God, and an excellent argument for Polytheism. -S.M. Stirling