If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave

Ok, so it seems that the meeting isnt happening today, because there are only a handful of people that actually showed up.

I turned up at quarter to 5 thinking I was late to find it had not started. It seems nick had a chat with Quanta and had decided that because so few people were here, it would be better to reorganise for another time.

This may in part be due to some rugby thing thats happening in the UK, but that was just one of the suggested problems. Another issue is the strange time (4pm) and the day being saturday.

So it seems we need a new day and time...

I would suggest a tuesday, since its the only day where we dont have a set in stone event (like silly mon, purple wed, strat thur). I know we have squad play, but it seems the best day to take over as meeting day, given that people seem to want to go out or something on fridays and saturdays? (socialites)

This next tuesday may be too soon for people, but if a lot of people show up, an impromptu meeting may be a good thing.

Otherwise, how about tuesday 26th at like 5 or 6 pm? Feel free to suggest different times, but bare in mind that people will want to play on other days and if new players join we may need to accomodate them too.

As most of you will know Cooper is away for two weeks in India, so we need to figure this one out alone!

It was very few people on now as well, so, yeah. I propose sundays as the ultimate meeting day. Nothing is booked unless "training". Tuesday is supposed to be squad play, but that works as well I guess (it is not a set in stone event, rather we are supposed to play in squads).

"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave

4) Training sessions
- To be organised more often. If you would like to run some, please do step forward.
- To assist in people arranging these, a calendar needs to be setup.
Action: Cooper to setup a shared calendar anyone can add an event to. Will be posted (stickied if poss) in the forums.
Action:Everyone should mention training sessions during busy nights. Take a lull in action to remind people of when they are due to take place (not everyone checks the forums...)

5) Outfit "manifesto" and guidelines (behaviour & use of comms)
- To be part of a collaborative "outfit guide".
Action:Cooper to setup a shared Google (?) document that we can work on and collate "guidelines" that have been written by many people thus far. Suggested format: 4-5 pages. 2-3 pages for "new to outfit" players covering our "style": Who we are, why wer are here. Regular events, what to expect, basic comms guidelines and Wibbster / Esoteric's player guidelines. Then 2-3 pages for organisers / leaders detailing roles, basic pointers for different roles, how comms work for leaders etc.
Action: Everyone To help out with the document. Let's get this done sooner rather than later.

6) Channel size / splitting comms / special ops
- Rather than "splitting comms" we should be making better use of smaller, coordinated forces on every night.
- Often many people want less people in the channel but do not say it. It is far
- A seperate (a squad or two) group of players doing something tighter, more organised, but still relaxed and chatty but with a smaller number of people in the channel should be in existence every night that we are not using squad based channels.
- The "specia giraffes" channel was setup up with this in mind. It was agree this works well to provide an environment with feweer people in a channel for those who want it.
- The problem is that creating a group for those who want less busy comms always comes down to the same few people who suggest it. (Followed by many saying that yes, they would like that...)

Action: Everyone PLEASE step forward and suggest that we start a "special giraffes" squad. This does not need to be "serious business" but is rather a place to form smaller groups for those that don;t like large, busy channels.

7) The Vanu Accord
- Cooper reiterated that the TVA exists primarily to foster communication and coordination, but does not exist so that one outfit can expect another outfit to do as asked.
- Problems as to what to do if we cannot join in with TVA actions or if another oufit just ignores / doesn't coordinate properly is to let it go. No outfit, RPS or otherwise, should be expected to be at the beck and call of anyone else.
- That being said, better coordination is appreciated. Our "liason" role is very well loved.
- Lision officers should push to make contact with outfits as much as possible and share good contacts.

Actions: Liason officers Should all join the forums at www.thevanuaccord.com where a discussion about the role will be started to share tips, contacts, discuss the role etc.

8) Terminology & Role clarification
- There is some confusing replication / swapping of terms. The following is for clarification.
Satellite bases: Used to refer to the capture points outside main bases (Amp, Tech, Bio). Specific bases should be referred to by their cardinal direction. Do not use outpost, tower, specific names etc.

Beacon / Waypoint: Do not get these mixed up. If you are unsure what is what, ask.

Roles:Platoon Lead: ObviousSquad Lead: Is now a 'tactical' role. They closely organise & order squads on a small scale.Radio giraffe: Liase between a squad and the PL. They pass sitreps to the PL. They will pass down orders from the PL, though the SL gives orders as to how to achieve the goal.
Sumamry: Radio the "what" SL the "how".
These roles will be clarified in the guidelines document to be written.Liason: Liase between RPS PL(s) and other outfits.

Action: Everyone follow the above terminology from now on.

9) The role of the PL, passing on command and getting new commanders- Being a "grunt" can often lead to a disconnect from the wider strategic level.
Action: Platoon Leaders Should use a shout to all platoon members more often to pass on summaries of the 'bigger picture'.

- When the PL leaves for the night it is often exceptionally difficult to find a replacement.
- People being given the PL role when they have specifically said no is not appreciated at all and should never be done.
- CMaster's idea of "Mentoring" for the PL role was met widely with approval.
- Many would like to come forward, but were uncertain.
- It was thought the PLs should voluntarily limit themselves to 3 hours.
- Training sessions as well as mentoring will be welcome.

Acyion: Platoon leaders Try to instigate a "shift change" in the middle of the night rather than the end of the night when everyone's dropping for the night.Action: Platoon leaders State that you will be stepping down well in advance of you leaving. And organise a replacement beforehand. On "squad play" nights it's good to have replacements for SLs, PLs and radios ready in advance.Action: Regular platoon leaders Offer to "mentor" potential new leaders. If you are leading (again...), think about instead using the time to teach new leaders.Action: EveryonePlease, please step forward if you like the idea of trying leading. Please also ask for help / guidance if you would like it.Action: EveryoneDo not undermine leaders (especially new ones). There were comments to the effect that new leaders often find themselves being contradicted by other players, or having their orders discussed rather than followed. We have talked about this before. Give leaders respect. Discussing strategy is fine, but do so in a constructive (and brief) manner.

10) Promoting VS on Miller
- To be discussed next meetingAction: Cooper to arrange for a front page post similar to the ARMA post a couple of months ago.

You can add Action: Ridebird regarding leading the campaign for more VS in TVA, as well as completing the guidelines.

And by the way - special giraffes is all well and good, but I would say a very large majority has shifted to prefering split comms. If people do not want to split the special giraffes should of course be utilized. I might try to lead a spec ops force again some time soon as well, but then I need to not be PL 24/7.

I think we have largely got over the bump of being afraid of proposing squad play though and that the ad hoc thing works, it's just that more people need to bring it up.

6) Channel size / splitting comms / special ops
- Rather than "splitting comms" we should be making better use of smaller, coordinated forces on every night.
- Often many people want less people in the channel but do not say it. It is far
- A seperate (a squad or two) group of players doing something tighter, more organised, but still relaxed and chatty but with a smaller number of people in the channel should be in existence every night that we are not using squad based channels.

Im not sure what is meant by "smaller" exactly, as no approx numbers specified, but if I had have been there tonight I would have opposed this somewhat.

I dont agree that EVERY night should be split down.. I posted a lengthy piece of text on the enjoyable side of having what some people would consider "clusterfuck" comms.. The main problem I have been seeing is that some people are just unwilling to give up a night to playing in a generally organised/messy way..

The way I would deal with the issue of not enjoying a certain style is not to play on a certain night, but there are people who would change the format rather than allowing for one night to be not of their own tastes. I think on the whole if people relaxed their attitude towards this more relaxed "we dont have to give a shit about being organised or winning but just have fun" viewpoint, then there would be a lot less of a problem.

I know some people dont like that, but I for one dont like always playing to win.. sometimes I just enjoy something in between strategic win gaming and silly monday style... something that means I can do what I want, chat and play with decent guys, but still not care too much.

I dont think there was ever an issue of people "being afraid" to split the comms... the issue was that there are often people that just dont want it split.. I mean, part of the charm of the group was everybody chatting to one another, but this seems to split apart that dynamic massively, and detracts from the appeal.

I enjoy it some of the time, but it just starts to wear on me when every night is taken to some degree of seriousness. Im not saying we should purposefully suck, or lose, but we should really come around to the fact that its possible to not win and still enjoy yourself.. There have been days where strategic nights fail miserably but less oranised nights are very fun.

I dont honestly think a channel should ever drop below 30 people in comms for certain nights, specifically the weds kind of night. I also dont really think we should be playing lots of tactical days in a row.

One thing is for certain, I personally dont ever want to see silly monday nights where we split comms, because that just ruins the hilarity for me.

I know certain people will oppose this view and such, but its the way I see it. Ad hoc does work for when people really do come to some kind of argumentative situation mid game, and I like the way it was working

TLDR: we shouldnt be splitting into smaller groups every night, especially not mondays. We already have two-three days where we play it fairly squad based and I think this is more than enough, taking into account relaxed/silly nights and nights where we have no organised events like fri/sat.

I know some people dont like that, but I for one dont like always playing to win.. sometimes I just enjoy something in between strategic win gaming and silly monday style... something that means I can do what I want, chat and play with decent guys, but still not care too much. (...)

I enjoy it some of the time, but it just starts to wear on me when every night is taken to some degree of seriousness. Im not saying we should purposefully suck, or lose, but we should really come around to the fact that its possible to not win and still enjoy yourself.. There have been days where strategic nights fail miserably but less oranised nights are very fun.

I dont honestly think a channel should ever drop below 30 people in comms for certain nights, specifically the weds kind of night. I also dont really think we should be playing lots of tactical days in a row.

(Yet) again you're conflating splitting comms with playing in a tactical, super-serious-must-win-strat style. There is still only one day of the week where this playstyle is expected, and I'd say that, even then, the tone on Thursdays is nowhere near as "must win at cost of all enjoyment" as you make out.

There's been a lot of work put in by many people recently to take this discussion forward, from this point particularly, towards a system that has the flexibility to accommodate both ends of the spectrum of play, and provide the range of comms environments (no matter how we're playing) needed to keep more people happy than was previously the case.

Rather than taking us back to where we were 2 weeks ago, please take the time to read the lengthy discussion in various threads about this - or read it again more carefully if you've just skimmed over it - to get a more up to date picture of the debate. Most everything you've brought up in your last few posts about comms has been hashed out from both sides of the argument many, many times, going back several months; we need to focus on the thread of progression that's emerged in the past 10 days or so and build on that rather than constantly repeating the same things in different terms.

...
TLDR: we shouldnt be splitting into smaller groups every night, especially not mondays. We already have two-three days where we play it fairly squad based and I think this is more than enough, taking into account relaxed/silly nights and nights where we have no organised events like fri/sat.

I just want to emphasize the very important point that split comms != serious play. What split comms means is that more people get a chance to speak up, and that leaders are more easily heard. It is very hard for those who do not feel very confident to speak up in a group of 25+ people, especially if English is a second language for them, as is the case for more than half of our members. Whenever we're 40 people in a channel, there are only about 10-12 people talking all the time, often the same 10-12 people too, which is a shame.

Oh, and one more thing, Pauly: split comms does not necessarily mean 1 squad per channel, it could mean 2 squads per channel, which is plenty chatty.

Last edited by EsotericReverie; 04-04-2013 at 09:59 AM.
Reason: Clarity

Yes on all fronts Esoteric! Frustration, or perhaps more a certain weariness, with the same confused premise bouncing back again and again to get in the way of meaningful debate.

That wasn't meant to detract from the fact that there has been great progress on the comms front recently; I've felt it tangibly when playing, whatever the style of night. I think a decent platform has been thrashed out, and that setting it down in guidelines and letting these bed in and evolve through practice is emphatically the right way to continue.

I think a decent platform has been thrashed out, and that setting it down in guidelines and letting these bed in and evolve through practice is emphatically the right way to continue.

Agreed. Now, I personally haven't been playing more than a couple of nights the last couple of weeks or so, but when I last played, we got the comms down really well during stratgir, for instance.

A final point; I don't think anyone wants to touch Silly Mondays, because they are meant to be Silly. It can make sense to split up if we're doing some kind of team-based competition or something, but otherwise just bunching everyone together makes sure that everyone gets the same kind of experience at any rate. Silly Mondays is not for everyone anyway, there are always some people who prefer to just play the game when people pull away to do Silly Mondays.

Pauly, I'm sure your concerns are valid from your standpoint, but there has been overwhelmingly positive feedback with the last round of changes we did (based on a week and a half worth of forum discussions). Could you give it a try for a couple of days, and if your issues seem to persist, we can take it from there, yeah? It's also worth keeping in mind, as Protorp points out, that these systems are still fairly new to us, and that they should settle with time.

I just want to emphasize the very important point that split comms != serious play. What split comms means is that more people get a chance to speak up, and that leaders are more easily heard. It is very hard for those who do not feel very confident to speak up in a group of 25+ people, especially if English is a second language for them, as is the case for more than half of our members. Whenever we're 40 people in a channel, there are only about 10-12 people talking all the time, often the same 10-12 people too, which is a shame.

Pretty much what Eso said right here. It's not about being more serious or going super strategic. It's about having space for people to talk. When there's thirty+ of us in mumble, it's gonna be hard to get a word in. In those cases, there are only some people who talk, with constant overlaps (i.e. starting talking before the person before has finished) and interruptions. When I have something I need to say (for example, OMG, BRTD bringing fifty prowlers from the west, lets kill 'em!) I frequently feel like I'm interrupting someone or speaking at the same time, which just means that neither person is heard clearly.

Splitting comms is actually pretty similar to what people do in real life. If a large group of people is talking, it breaks up into smaller groups which talk about different things. It's just not feasible to have twenty+ people being part of a discussion without some kind of chair giving the word to people, like in a bigger meeting.

(as a side not though, I have to say that we have a pretty fascinating linguistic environment in mumble. People with different first languages who adjust to the norms of a multicultural environment and making it work, kind of. Without almost all of the nonverbal signals you'd find in IRL conversation... It's quite interesting. )

I just want to emphasize the very important point that split comms != serious play. What split comms means is that more people get a chance to speak up, and that leaders are more easily heard. It is very hard for those who do not feel very confident to speak up in a group of 25+ people, especially if English is a second language for them, as is the case for more than half of our members. Whenever we're 40 people in a channel, there are only about 10-12 people talking all the time, often the same 10-12 people too, which is a shame.

Just want to chip in and say I applaud this. Though I'm still not in the outfit and have never been playing with you guys I've been on Mumble three times in total with 20-30+ people in the channel and I just couldn't make myself speak up. So channels with less people are a surefire way to alleviate my problem and also, from a comms perspective, it's definitely more efficient (speaking as a former radio guy in the army).

There might be a middle ground on your comms issue. I'm sure you could work out something using this so that people could split off into squads whilst allowing those who want a mélange to join the shout channel on a different button.

Just want to chip in and say I applaud this. Though I'm still not in the outfit and have never been playing with you guys I've been on Mumble three times in total with 20-30+ people in the channel and I just couldn't make myself speak up. So channels with less people are a surefire way to alleviate my problem and also, from a comms perspective, it's definitely more efficient (speaking as a former radio guy in the army).

You should join us! NAOW! :P

But in all seriousness, thursdays (i.e. today) is the day we play strategic, with comms split on squad-basis. It's much easier to talk than on most other nights, so I you feel like joining us tonight is the night for you. You don't HAVE to speak it. Just being on mumble is good enough. You can always contact me or anyone else who you recognize from the forum for an outfit invite ingame. Just send a tell or chat us up if you see us around.