I'm not saying the world is going to end on thursday, I'm just saying that doing experiments based on theory is irresponsible. The scientists at CERN say that micro-black holes could likely be made at the rate of 1 per second. They also say that they will evaporate quickly due to hawking radiation. Hawking radiation is a scientific theory that still hasn't been proven and is still debated in the scientific community.

There was an article in Discover about this. The mini black holes are nothing to worry about because they probably occur naturally anyway. The LHC will be be doing what Cosmic Rays have already been doing for billions of years.

yes but that analogy is flawed. The cosmic collisions occur outside of the earth and are moving on a path through space. They would harmlessly escape the earth's gravitational pull. We would be creating one at rest within the earth.

True but cosmic rays have shooting around for eons. If mini-black holes really hang around and don't dissipate, our planet should have collided with one sometime during it's history. Cosmic Rays are more common than comets or asteroids, yet our planet has been struck multiple times by the latter and never by the former.

If Cosmic Rays really produce trails of mini-black holes that don't dissipate, we would already know about because we'd occasionally wake up and notice that large chunks of the continents were missing. If the black holes DO dissipate, then we're safe. If Cosmic Rays don't even create mini-black holes, then we'll still be fine because the LHC won't create any either.

The argument against the cosmic ray analogy is that the microscopic black holes formed by cosmic collisions will shoot straight through the earth and off into space as opposed to a man made collision where the black hole would be born at rest. If the theory of hawking radiation is true then we will be just fine.

I see, so you're saying the mini-hole might get bigger because it constantly has matter around it to consume where space-created mini-holes just shoot through the earth before they get a chance to suck anything up and grow? That makes sense, but wouldn't nebulas and gas clouds show evidence of growing mini-black holes? It could take hundreds of years for a cosmic-ray created mini-hole to travel through a nebula and there would be plenty of matter for it to suck up.

Doesn't the lack of black holes in nebulas or at least streaks of nothingness where mini-black holes sucked matter up while traveling through the gas cloud kind of hint that the mini-black holes destabilize?

Not untill hawking radiation is proven to exist, no we shouldn't. You see genious, in most experiments there is both a control and a variable. Since we don't have a control in this situation we should at least have a safeguard that is proven and not just theoritical physics proposed by a man whose theories have been proven wrong several times in the past.

The thing is, to prove Hawking Radiation to exist we would need to go and check out a black hole, and aside from being suicidal, it's just not possible. Besides, even though it's not "proven", it's a solid theory. Black holes are supposed to suck everything right? Well if they did that, then we wouldn't be able to detect them. But we CAN detect some X-rays and stuff being emitted from black holes, so obviously they are releasing some energy (Hawking Radiation).

You're forgetting the fact that the black hole has a good chance of just collapsing in on itself because it can't support its own weight. This is how we explain that a black hole (which exist in our very own solar system) can't just keep grabbing all matter and eventually taking the whole universe. They eventually can't support their own dense weight and collapse.
Plus isn't it moving anyway. Its not really being created at rest if it is being created.
I'm not en expert but maybe you have some insight.

Okay, first off Anig, tl;dr? I obviously can't refute or critique all the things that this guy is trying to say, nor would I try to. But I took a look at this guy's website, and it's a mess. Amidst the hapahzard organization, it's also chock full of bizaare grammar and even misspellings. It even delves into the bizaare, and tries to address the SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS "aspects" of this project. WTF?

He also seems to take the extra time to play witch hunter, and slander the scientists who have worked hard on this project. He talks about scientists who support CERN research as either A) totally clueless, B) unwilling/able to "do the math", or C) aware of the dangers, but not willing to admit it. In his view, certain scientists are just out for personal gain. And that sort of viewpoint is just offensive.

Now does this sound like a guy with a level-head on this issue, who presents his argument with a clear and unbiased standing? To me, it sounds more like a man with a soapbox. A slander and scare campaign, put on by someone who, motivated by either a misguided sense of urgency and self-righteousness, or a genuine malice towards others, is out to cause a ruckus at all costs.

Now, either way, does that mean there isn't a danger? No, of course not. But I checked Wikipedia's "Safety of the Large Hadron Collider" website, and a commissioned study of SCIENTISTS found "no basis for any concievable threat." And that's from a GROUP of scientists, not just one guy with a soapbox.

Now, if you're going to go off the deep end and start conjecturing that somehow the study's findings were tainted by political coercing, a lack of knowledge or whatnot, then you're REALLY starting to grab for straws. If you start doubting all the established findings, then where does your goose chase end? If you can doubt those scientists findings, why can't you doubt THIS guy's findings?

Honestly, I'm no particle physicist, but I can't envision how smashing together a few atoms, at ANY speed or "electron volt" levels, could result in such a catastrophic event that it destroys the earth in any fashion. I refuse to believe that the laws of physics are so fragile that a few subatomic particles can snowball into some monstrous, earth-swallowing abnormality.

Let's be realistic about this. We can detonate 15 megaton hydrogen bombs without event, stars can go novae but not turn into black holes, but we can't bounce a few subatomic particles against eachother? Give me a break.

Obviously, this is not a complete refutation, nor did I intend it to be. But this sort of alarmist approach to science irritates me to no end. People have ALWAYS been scared of the unknown, especially when it comes to advances in science. But the satisfying thing is, things will go on as usual. The LHC will run without incident, we will or won't see the Higgs boson, and no one in the general public will ever notice a thing. And that's it.

how about we do this sh*t when we get to mars, then we'll only kill the ppl who know how badly f*cked everyone is if we make this thing for the love of god the guy who designed it knows it'll kill us all. What will it yield will it help us do anything will it. All I see is Dr. Mahatten coming out that thing and f*cking up our perception of time and space....f*ck. I don't want the world to die.

Just the energy implications are enough to make it worth it. If you get heavy into the theoretical, Titor like Dimension Travel could come into play. A potential form of time travel and a source of nearly infinite energy. That's why.

I'm not fear mongering, and I'm all for advancements in science. I just think that when the risk is total annihilation, our safeguard should be more than just a theory. We're launching a satelite sometime in the next few months that will search for proof of hawking radiation. Why not wait for the results from that and then start collisions?

The thing is, to prove Hawking Radiation to exist we would need to go and check out a black hole, and aside from being suicidal, it's just not possible. Besides, even though it's not "proven", it's a solid theory. Black holes are supposed to suck everything right? Well if they did that, then we wouldn't be able to detect them. But we CAN detect some X-rays and stuff being emitted from black holes, so obviously they are releasing some energy (Hawking Radiation).

Technically gravity is an unproven theory as well. In the Discover article, it said it is possible for a mini-black hole to destroy the earth, but the chance of that happening is phenomenally small. So small, that there's a better chance that all the Oxygen atoms in your room will all randomly bounce to one side, leaving you to suffocate on Nitrogen.

Who would be left to tell the rest of the world? It's not like if they suddenly created a black hole one of the technicians could just pick up the phone and alert the rest of the world. The technician and the phone would already be crushed. A black hole isn't something you can just "see" and warn others about it. If you're close enough to "see" it, you're pretty much f*cked.

The most important question we have to ask ourselves is that if the collider is able to accelerate particles fast enough to create microscopic black holes incapable of escaping the earth, is that still fast enough to outrun Jeff Gordon on a hot day in Charlotte? Think NASCAR, people, and all your worries will fade as your brain slowly dies.

I was there at CERN for a visit. Belive my guys this thing gives you the creeps.
Just the size of the particel detectors and super mangnets. Amazing.
If that thing is not capabel of opening wormholes to other dimensions what else?

What I'm getting at with this ytmnd is that a blind faith in science is very dangerous. Science through out history has made many mistakes along the way, some of which have been devastating. For those of you calling this another eon8 or y2k I disagree. I wasn't nervous about either of those beforehand. Also something is very wrong when people are making evaluations for the safety of their own machine, because the evaluation is jaded to meet their interests.

I'm calling bullsh*t on the "creating black holes at the rate of 1 per second" bit. If that were the case then the idea this machine would ever be created would be laughable since that WOULD be dooming the entire planet.
Also, this remix of Lux Aeterna hurts my ears.

You do research. Oh wait, that's right, you don't need to. You just need to fight the scary "blind faith in science" and make sure people never do "experiments based on theory" until the theories are proven, while forgetting that it is impossible to prove theories without experiment. This is all bullsh*t.

What is this new fangled gadget I'm using right now...a compuwhat? And these crazy program gadgets like photoshop, imageready, and audacity I use to make these ytmnd thingies. I hate technology. I think we should go live in huts. No, actually i work in IT. I love technology and science. I make a living off of it. You see, there's something called a risk/benefit analysis. That's what this is about. I don't think anything is worth risking everything for.

Raven, a few years ago people were laughing at predictions that Particle Accelerators could possibly produce anti-matter. Well it turns out that they can. Already existing Accelerators can pump out Antihydrogen and Antihelium like it's no big deal, but before the Accelerators were built the though of creating antimatter was scoffed at. Creating mini-black holes seems like bullsh*t now but it'll probably turn out to be true and (hopefully) harmless.

well i guess if this does happen i will be ok with it because we will have died seeking knowledge. plus the only way to prove a theory is to find evidence and this is the only way we can. and the Hawkins radiation theory has some wight to it cuz black holes do emit energy because they shoot out blast of gamma radiation, in fact a black hole did that a few months ago and the gamma blast killed a bunch of stars in the galaxy close to it.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/03/29/no-the-lhc-wont-destroy-the-earth/ The same theory that talks about hawkings radiation talks about the mini black holes forming in the particle test, you can't have one without the other.

The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker.
-Albert Einstein
I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
-J. Robert Oppenheimer

Black holes are only as powerful as the gravity they produce. CERN has already talked about this, there is no way for them to survive long enough and propagate within the ring. They are looking for the Higgs and other exotic particles, not attempting to destroy the planet. The cosmic rays that hit the planet on a daily basis are much more dangerous to you than the LHC.

Though keep in mind, all matter moves toward the eternal horizon. This is what keeps mini black holes from stabilizing. And there's that Hawking Radiation... Anyway, check out my ytmnd's description for all safety concerns. http://moonmanlhc.ytmnd.com/