Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:32 pm

Death Star Designers

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pmPosts: 2525Location: Anderson, SC

Played a few games this weekend on Rhun Var Citadel (misspelled i know). That is a very interesting map. It has good advancement from both ends and all the fighting seems to be done in gambit or just above/below it. There is also pretty much no way to get first round gambit that ive found on it. The doors arent hard to get blown open and you really only need to blow the top or bottom door of gambit to ensure your not getting locked out.

The Storage shed on the outside I find hallarious, its just big enough to hide whatever commanders you want in it (up to 3 and still keep the doors shut) and they are pretty much safe in there.

The 2 pits on the top and bottom are pretty cool. They also are just big enough to where any normal speed character with flight cant fly over them cause they are 13 squares long, but you can fly onto the platform and back off it which is hellacool.

The 2 pits on the top and bottom are pretty cool. They also are just big enough to where any normal speed character with flight cant fly over them cause they are 13 squares long, but you can fly onto the platform and back off it which is hellacool.

LOL, it's almost like someone designed it as 13 squares long, hahaha.

Nice work, Deri.

_________________-AaronMand'alor"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:33 pm

Death Star Designers

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pmPosts: 2525Location: Anderson, SC

LoboStele wrote:

Weeks wrote:

The 2 pits on the top and bottom are pretty cool. They also are just big enough to where any normal speed character with flight cant fly over them cause they are 13 squares long, but you can fly onto the platform and back off it which is hellacool.

LOL, it's almost like someone designed it as 13 squares long, hahaha.

Nice work, Deri.

Indeed, i was in the middle of a game and saw his name at the bottom and im like "so thats why" lol.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:58 pm

Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pmPosts: 4982

thanks for bumping this. I havn't looked at it for a long while.

Thanks to Weeks and JC for the kind words about RenVar. I had fun designing that and it seems to play pretty much how i envisioned. Usually a mid map scrum with options for flanking.

I feel this thread is important for anyone getting into the game.

Maps are a vital resource for the game and with the increasing difficulty in obtaining WotC maps i feel threads like this should be put into a separate forum where people can discuss maps, as well as stickies with links of where and how to obtain them.

The forum would have links to the Holocron map list, Maps of Mastery, anywhere where Matt hosts/sells maps and would have a sticky with the list of current restricted, standard and open map lists.

Its quite a lot of work but the payoff would be anyone could find and browse available maps to aquire and discuss.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:48 pm

Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pmPosts: 3608Location: New Jersey

fingersandteeth wrote:

thanks for bumping this. I havn't looked at it for a long while.

Thanks to Weeks and JC for the kind words about RenVar. I had fun designing that and it seems to play pretty much how i envisioned. Usually a mid map scrum with options for flanking.

I feel this thread is important for anyone getting into the game.

Maps are a vital resource for the game and with the increasing difficulty in obtaining WotC maps i feel threads like this should be put into a separate forum where people can discuss maps, as well as stickies with links of where and how to obtain them.

The forum would have links to the Holocron map list, Maps of Mastery, anywhere where Matt hosts/sells maps and would have a sticky with the list of current restricted, standard and open map lists.

Its quite a lot of work but the payoff would be anyone could find and browse available maps to aquire and discuss.

+1

_________________"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:51 pm

Master of the Order

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pmPosts: 6673Location: Chicago, IL

I want to express my opinion of this, but I don't want it to diminish any of our communities awesome mapmakers hard work.

I also don't want to have this reflect negatively on Brad or anyone else playtesting the custom maps for legality. If anything - it makes their work all the more important.

This is just my 2 cents:

Tripling our restricted map list size is a big mistake. I think even doubling it is too many. Everyone is always for more maps, more maps, more maps. I am too - but not for the restricted list. I love a wide variety of maps for fun games, scenarios, even relaxed tournaments. But for the RESTRICTED LIST, I think it needs to be a SMALL LIST. It needs to be only the cream of the crop. The best, LEAST ABUSABLE maps.

Map strategy and squad synergy with a map should always be a part of the game, but a minor part, as opposed to a dominant part. Squad building and gameplay should remain larger components. We don't want the map dice roll to become what wins a game, except in very rare cases of evenly matched squads run by evenly matched players.

In 2007, Kelly won Gencon in no small part due to using a peculiar map to his advantage. It lead to a huge uproar to ban Geonosis (along with Mustafar). In 2008 the Hardboard was definitely a large part of Bill's strategy, and in 2009 Deri won maproll on all 3 finals matches to play on his trainstation. All three are excellent players, and used those strategies brilliantly - please don't misinterpret - I am not taking anything away from them. Would they have done well had they lost more map rolls? Maybe. But maps played a big part.

In 2010 - the map list was more restricted than ever. It was painstakingly selected and worked out great. From what I saw - the final 8 had little to do with map rolls being won. In fact - virtually no top squad was map dependant. It was a great testament to how good those players were and what great squads they had.

Let me clarify more - the NUMBER of maps on the restricted list isn't important. It's the level of abusability. With a higher number, some will inevitably slip through the cracks, and become abused.

I came up with a great strategy on Taris and won the Chicago Regional 2009. So that year tons of other players hopped on board and did the same, and the next year it was banned. (Rightfully so)

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:06 pm

Master of the Order

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pmPosts: 6673Location: Chicago, IL

So what's my personal criteria? I pulled up this from an old wizards thread from November 2009, and I still stand by it:

1. Reasonable advancement possibilities (even without movement breakers) is one of the biggest. Can a characeter have a chance to quickly and safely move to gambit?

2. No across the board LOS. I beleive that you should be able to not be attacked on any map if you choose to set up defensively. (Example - on Hoth - no matter how you set up - you can be decimated in round one.) <This includes if doors are opened>

3. Walls in Gambit. Walls - not just cover, and not even doors. Ask yourself one question - can I be attacked in every square in gambit from the apponents starting area? If it's a "yes", the map has to go. This way you can, and MUST advance to gambit where action takes place.

Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:35 pm

Big Bad Brad

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 amPosts: 5344

TimmerB123 wrote:

I want to express my opinion of this, but I don't want it to diminish any of our communities awesome mapmakers hard work.

I also don't want to have this reflect negatively on Brad or anyone else playtesting the custom maps for legality. If anything - it makes their work all the more important.

This is just my 2 cents:

Tripling our restricted map list size is a big mistake. I think even doubling it is too many. Everyone is always for more maps, more maps, more maps. I am too - but not for the restricted list. I love a wide variety of maps for fun games, scenarios, even relaxed tournaments. But for the RESTRICTED LIST, I think it needs to be a SMALL LIST. It needs to be only the cream of the crop. The best, LEAST ABUSABLE maps.

Map strategy and squad synergy with a map should always be a part of the game, but a minor part, as opposed to a dominant part. Squad building and gameplay should remain larger components. We don't want the map dice roll to become what wins a game, except in very rare cases of evenly matched squads run by evenly matched players.

In 2007, Kelly won Gencon in no small part due to using a peculiar map to his advantage. It lead to a huge uproar to ban Geonosis (along with Mustafar). In 2008 the Hardboard was definitely a large part of Bill's strategy, and in 2009 Deri won maproll on all 3 finals matches to play on his trainstation. All three are excellent players, and used those strategies brilliantly - please don't misinterpret - I am not taking anything away from them. Would they have done well had they lost more map rolls? Maybe. But maps played a big part.

In 2010 - the map list was more restricted than ever. It was painstakingly selected and worked out great. From what I saw - the final 8 had little to do with map rolls being won. In fact - virtually no top squad was map dependant. It was a great testament to how good those players were and what great squads they had.

Let me clarify more - the NUMBER of maps on the restricted list isn't important. It's the level of abusability. With a higher number, some will inevitably slip through the cracks, and become abused.

I came up with a great strategy on Taris and won the Chicago Regional 2009. So that year tons of other players hopped on board and did the same, and the next year it was banned. (Rightfully so)

I see similar problems with many of these maps.

I hope we get a much, MUCH smaller list for Regionals and GenCon

I initially wanted a smaller map list, or at least a rotating one. It was pointed out to me however, that if it met the requirement it met the requirements and Restricted wasn't necessarily an indication of numbers.

Sure, I tripled the Map list, but it was FOUR years of custom maps. I also had the leeway of taking a "wait and see" approach on some of them (Swamp Caves) as the map list has the option of being reviewed every 6 months. This gives me Regionals to shake out any problems and to update it before Gencon. It's another reason why I "spoiled" the map list to Jason for the Lansing event.

Honestly, I could have used you months ago when a lot of people who said they'd help...didn't. I probably put about 10 hours or so into each map studying it for abusability. I also ran this list by quite a few individuals expressing my and listening to their concerns on each one. Am I confident with my choices? Yes. Do I think one or two will drop off? Likely. Are either of those a bad thing? No.

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