This is a topic for sharing your beliefs, learning about others' beliefs, asking for clarification on facts, laws, or anything else similar.

Attacking others' beliefs or attacking them will not be tolerated here and will earn you a warning. If you feel someone is being rude, use the report button (found near the top of every post).This means: no bashing someone (for their opinions), no namecalling (for their opinions), no judgment (for their opinions), etc.

If someone doesn't want to answer questions about their belief, they do not have to, so do not try and force them to, no matter how much you disagree with them.

This is also not a place to tear apart someone's beliefs. If they want to debate, then that is fine, but always keep in mind bringing it to PM if things are getting too heated. We have people of a great variety of beliefs here, so please be respectful of everyone. Although we may not believe the same things, we can still get along. If the thread becomes too emotional, just walk away from it, breathe, and calm down.

You may now go back to your regularly scheduled thread:

Before we even get started, general reminder that not everyone who can get pregnant is a woman. Let's please use gender-inclusive language here. Men and other nonbinary people may get pregnant. Instead of mother or woman try parent or pregnant person.

In 2005, there were a reported number of over 500,000 children in foster care. That's half a million children who're considered wards of the state. Out of those half a million children, only 200,000 found themselves out of foster care, either by adoption (18%), being returned to the home in which they were taken from (54%), was taken by a relative or guardian (15%), were emancipated (9%) or other (4%). Other could be, and probably is, a child turning 18 and being released. However, that is only 200,000 children who left, leaving nearly or over 300,000 in foster care. About 30% of children in foster care have severe emotional, behavioral, or developmental problems. Health problems are also very common.

Each State has it's own definition of what is considered "child abuse". In 2006, an estimated 905,000 children were victims of maltreatment. Nearly 3.6 million children received a CPS (Child Protective Services) investigation or assessment. Of the children who received an investigation, approximately one-quarter (25.2%) were determined to have been abused or neglected. Based on a victim rate of 12.1 per 1,000 children, an estimated 905,000 children were found to be victims in the 52 States.

During FFY 2006, an estimated 1,530 children (compared to 1,460 children for FFY 2005) died from abuse or neglect—at a rate of 2.04 deaths per 100,000 children. More than three-quarters (78.0%) of children who were killed were younger than 4 years of age, 11.9 percent were 4–7 years of age, 4.8 percent were 8–11 years of age, and 5.4 percent were 12–17 years of age.

There were an estimated 1,530 child fatality victims;Approximately one-fifth (17.6%) of child fatality data were reported from agencies other than child welfare; and More than three-quarters (78.0%) of child fatality victims were younger than 4 years.

Abortion has a long history and has been induced by various methods including herbal abortifacients, the use of sharpened tools, physical trauma and other traditional methods. Modern medicine utilizes medications and surgical procedures to induce abortion. The legality, prevalence, and cultural views on abortion vary substantially around the world. In many parts of the world there is a divisive public debate over the ethical and legal aspects of abortion between the pro-life and pro-choice movements. The approximate number of induced abortions performed worldwide in 2003 was 42 million, which declined from nearly 46 million in 1995.

Worldwide, some 20-30 million legal abortions are performed each year, with another 10-20 million abortions performed illegally. Illegal abortions are unsafe and account for 13% of all deaths of women because of serious complications. Death from abortion is almost unknown in the United States or in other countries where abortion is legally available.

Early-term surgical abortion is a simple procedure which is safer than childbirth when performed before the 16th week.[24][25] Abortion methods, like most minimally invasive procedures, carry a small potential for serious complications.[26][27] The risk of complications can increase depending on how far pregnancy has progressed.[28][29]

Women typically experience minor pain during first-trimester abortion procedures. In a 1979 study of 2,299 patients, 97% reported experiencing some degree of pain. Patients rated the pain as being less than earache or toothache, but more than headache or backache.[30] Local and general anesthetics are used during surgical procedures[31]

The relationship between induced abortion and mental health is an area of controversy.[32][33] No scientific research has demonstrated a direct causal relationship between abortion and poor mental health,[34][35] though some studies have noted that there may be a statistical correlation. Pre-existing factors in a woman's life, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, lack of social support, pre-existing psychiatric illness, and conservative views on abortion increase the likelihood of experiencing negative feelings after an abortion.[36][37]

In a 1990 review, the American Psychological Association (APA) found that "severe negative reactions [after abortion] are rare and are in line with those following other normal life stresses."[35] The APA revised and updated its findings in August 2008 to account for the accumulation of new evidence, and again concluded that induced abortion did not lead to increased mental health problems.[38][39] As of August 2008, the United Kingdom Royal College of Psychiatrists is also performing a systematic review of the medical literature to update their position statement on the subject.

The heart begins to beat at anywhere between 5 to 8 weeks. Fetal pain, its existence, and its implications are part of a larger debate about abortion. Many researchers in the area of fetal development believe that a fetus is unlikely to feel pain until after the seventh month of pregnancy.[89][90] However, legislation has been proposed by pro-life advocates requiring abortion providers to tell a woman that the fetus may feel pain during an abortion procedure.[91]

A review by researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in JAMA concluded that data from dozens of medical reports and studies indicate that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy.

In the United States and in European countries such as the Netherlands, more than 90 percent of all abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy. For reference, after 24 weeks of pregnancy, abortions are ONLY performed legally for serious health risks, and can only be performed at hospitals by the order of a doctor.

There are a lot of sites on the internet that will tell you lies about abortion to try and scare people into believing it's bad. Please make sure to know where your resources are. Sites ran by Christians, or far right wing people will most likely be filled with lies to scare you. It's untrue that women often die from abortion. With every activity we do in life, there is risk associated with it. Yes, some women may experience complications, but people experience complications with everything, from driving to simple oral surgeries, to replacing organs. People have died from getting lung transplants and even giving birth, these reasons are not enough to ban abortion. It is untrue that a majority of abortions are late term abortions, performed into the third (and final) trimester of pregnancy. As mentioned earlier, it is illegal. It is untrue that babies are put back in just to be aborted a second time.

Abortion does not kill women. In fact, the statistical information about women and death with legal abortion is so low that it's almost impossible to find information about it on the internet. The fact is that safe, legal abortions proformed by doctors in a sterile environment, such as a clinic, does not result in the death of the mother. Of course, with any medical procedure, it carries risks. Remember, when people get heart and lung transplants, their risk including infection, and their body's rejecting the organ, which is far more dangerous and life threatening then an abortion.

I would like to point out that, in the long run, abortion probably doesn't influence the population all that much.

I would also like to point out that that was an assumption based on intuition and could easily be completely wrong.

My issue with abortion is choice. It's not a population thing, or an environment thing. The population problem can be solved by having fewer kids, not terminating more pregnancies. It's simply that a woman has to have the right to determine what goes on in her own body, because the only other option is inconceivable.

Over population is an overly propagated myth. Claiming overpopulation is in no way a defense for abortion.

The world IS overpopulated in terms of enough resources to go around. Space is not so much a premium, there are countries such as the USA and Canada which have vast swathes of unpopulated land. However the resources which we use to live; fuel, food, water, are the ones which are threatened. Whilst we can, quite easily, fit another 3 or 4 billion people on this planet, we cannot provide fuel, food and water for them all. Heck, we can't even do that for the 7 billion we already have.

My friend fell pregnant when contraception failed. she was on the pill and her boyfriend was wearing protection

she could NOT support a child, and did not like the foster system having been through it herself. she had full support from all of us when she decided to abort despite her previous belief that she would never abort.

she had little choice and made a hard decision, still seeking counseling

i would tell you one other story but 1 it's too close to home and talking of it brings back memories. lets just say it wasn't a choice she made either.

abortion is not a black and white subject and can't be argued as one because there are situations where a mothers hand may be forced.

and population to food/fuel/shelter/fresh water. we are over populated. space isn't a factor it's the supplies. a lot of people are barely able to live on the supplies available to them. Many people who own internet and computers (not all people of course i know some who have a computer but struggle for necessities) are to some extent able to get what they need to live, they have money. but many do not have such luxuries and they don't have the ability to come here and state their point.

Over population is an overly propagated myth. Claiming overpopulation is in no way a defense for abortion.

Have you seen some of these countries????

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I hope abortion is outlawed nation-wide ASAP. I think it is wrong to kill something so small, with a lot to live for.

That happens and many women will be rushed to the hospital every day to rid themselves of something that could be the worst thing to happen for them. Not mention back ally abortions will have to come into play again. Lets do women a favor and keep abortions safe. What about THEIR right to life which trumps the fetuses?

So you want abortion to be illegal in your country? I'm guessing you're the one adopting all the unwanted children and/or give them financial support. Medicine to the ill. Clothes, books, toys, love?

Or do you just want them to be born?

Great point.

and why is it so hard to adopt??i for much of my life and still do wish to adopt one day (not now i'm too young and not ready) but not only is it so expensive it send you broke from point A, but there are so many hoops you have to jump through. some are fair enough, you want the child to go to a safe home, but why can only rich people adopt?

Because a lot of adults who want kids don't stop trying to get pregnant, and if they want to adopt, the majority don't say "Boy, I really want to adopt a 9-year old." This is why babies are adopted faster. I'm not saying that's a problem, I'm just saying it's harder for orphans. Just ask my best mate....

As I said, population density in a few areas does not prove overpopulation as a whole.

Second, I've never been out of the country personally so I'm not going to start spouting out statements about other countries, but I have been out in the midwest in America plenty, and let me tell you there's no problem with population. There's plenty of space in the world for the amount of people we have. Some of them are just concentrated heavily in one area.

Nor does population density in one area (the US) prove that there isn't a global population problem. Please refer again to the list showing that America as a whole has a lower population density than well over half the rest of the world.

Edited to add: If you think moving people around so that they're not all congregated in one area is a good idea may I suggest telling your government they should open their borders up a bit more. I'm a self-supporting adult with relatives in the US, but I can't get a green card because the relatives are not my parents and I'm from England.

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I fail to see how natural occurrences such as drought are in any way proof of overpopulation as well.

That's down to something called carrying capacity. The carrying capacity of any given population in any given area can change. If there is a water shortage what may have been a comfortable number of humans has suddenly become more humans than that area can support. The frequency with which we see reports of drought in the news (often every year in some reigons) indicated that those reigons have more humans living in them than the land can actualy support.

Edited to add: If you think moving people around so that they're not all congregated in one area is a good idea may I suggest telling your government they should open their borders up a bit more. I'm a self-supporting adult with relatives in the US, but I can't get a green card because the relatives are not my parents and I'm from England.

Indeed.

Myself and my husband have recently been looking into Canada. We have both spoken about moving to the USA and buying some land. This has been a pipe dream of ours but over the last couple of months we've started to consider it seriously. However the green card situation is impossible. We then looked into Canada - another country we would really love to live. Despite me being in a profession which is on the 'fast track' it would still take several years before we were allowed to enter Canada on anything other than a tourist visa. About the only way we would ever be allowed in either country in the near future is to have some major investment money available, with for Canada in particular is around $250,000 (Canadian).

It's not that we don't love the UK, we do. However the UK is very overcrowded, land prices are horrendous and house prices are worse.

North America might not be overcrowded, but that is not the situation for the rest of the world.

In Australia, we have plenty of land. But as soon as a consistant El Nino hits? Bye bye water supply.

For me, over-population is a good as any excuse to get an abortion. Where I work, I get people in all the time carrying on about the state of the planet. I bet people rarely stop to think about the main reason it's that way. (Here's a clue: US.)

@Syaoransbear - People suck. Nuff said.

My fiance's sister and brother in law are very 'green'. She actually works for the green party of canada, and right now they are building a 'green' house that is heated by wood and they are using a well for their water supply. I think they are using solar and wind for electricity.

But she's already had two children in the last few years. No matter how non-environmentally friendly I am, my carbon footprint will ALWAYS be smaller than hers since we've decided to not have children. I find that hilarious.

i dislike the idea of abortion. i would rather have the baby and put it up for adoption. i think that as soon as a baby is concieved, the shild has thought and feelings, and it would be like killing a living thing and i hate that thought, all though that is just my opinion.

i dislike the idea of abortion. i would rather have the baby and put it up for adoption. i think that as soon as a baby is concieved, the shild has thought and feelings, and it would be like killing a living thing and i hate that thought, all though that is just my opinion.

And there's nothing wrong with your opinion as long as it stops at just being an opinion . What people have a problem with is that those who are against abortion are trying to control those who are not against abortion with their opinions.

I suppose here is where a huge problem can be....people who are pro life don't normally take into consideration that abortion can be because the mother may have a dangerous pregnancy where termination may be the only option or serious consequences for the pregnant women or the cells inside her are not forming correctly, etc. Or perhaps for people who were raped, force them to carry a child to term?

It is not anywhere near a human for the stages that are legal for an abortion. It is simply cells as well as a parasite, using a host to sustain growth.

Also, what right does anyone have to say what another person should do in their own personal life and body? And we honestly have enough people in the world, we don't need to worry about the human race going extinct or anything.

I think that abortion is just the medical way to remove a unwanted offspring, it can be considered natural sense if a woman wants a less 'complicated' way to get rid of a offspring. i personally think that if abortion was banned then there would be more than a few misscarages because of stress and other abortion tricks. i'm for abortion because i read about it and the science behind it. abortion is a less cruel way of letting a child live and have a high chance of problems with living in a system. plus i see it as the child could not understand what happened and a quick kill abortion will cause it no pain.

though i hope that i don't have to worry about it till i'm old enough to get my tubes tied, personaly can't wait. though if i do want a child i'm more likely to adopt a offspring even though i know the foster systems will be full either way. (not attacking anyone) i just don't know why people just don't adopt if they what to have a offspring, though i guess it's because its the free way, if that's even a possibly to get a offspring, to produce your own. though it makes you wounder want will happen when the foster system has to turn offspring away, either the parents of the child will have to keep it or they will abandon it to family or the streets.

not looking for enemies if you have a comment on my thoughts as questions i will only answer ones that are rational and not anger related.

There are many laws which clearly state that in certain "aspects" you dont really own your body hence that argument isnt as crystal clear as you all would want it to be....

It may not be 100%, but the legal right to bodily integrity is actually pretty well supported. Let me put it this way- there are no legal (let alone moral, which I consider far more important) grounds for requiring one person to use their body for the benefit of another against their will. Especially not at the risk of their own life or health.

It may not be 100%, but the legal right to bodily integrity is actually pretty well supported. Let me put it this way- there are no legal (let alone moral, which I consider far more important) grounds for requiring one person to use their body for the benefit of another against their will. Especially not at the risk of their own life or health.

Agreed, no law requires you to use your body for the benefit of another person but there are a few laws that prevent you from using your body for the benefit of another despite your will

The whole topic is a shady one, you claim morality is more important but Im pretty sure that "morality" is exactly why they object to abortions, Im not sure though as I have no idea whats the idea behind making a law against abortions The only idea I get is a religious one and religion usually goes side to side with morality right ?Basically moral to you is immoral to mister X and Vice versa thats why its a complexed subject

Regarding "at risk of their own life or health", well even if such law passes in cases of risk to mothers life it wont apply, and thats 100% certain, health as well, unless you are talking about mental health....