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What you people are not understanding is that with the judging as it is, there aren't ENOUGH "horses more suited for the job" to go around. And the elephant in the room is the fact that the RIDERS don't want to ride a horse that may pull a little. It is not just the judging that drives this bus.

The good jumping, good moving horse that takes zero prep to get to the ring, under today's judging, are almost non-existant. And horrendously expensive when they are found. So now, what?

Say WHAT?? To answer your question: learn to ride and train the horse you have! A good horse is made by a good rider, he does not just majikally happen and therefore only available in limited quantities.

....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY.

I disagree the fact a rider is unwilling to learn to ride and train the horse they have means we should therefore stoop to their level and lower our standards to the level of their laziness. The answer to a "playful" horse or a disobedient horse or anything a horse is or does, is not to drug him. If YOU choose to work with him and use him for sport then it is up to YOU to train him to do the job you are requesting of him.

It makes me sick to consider rewarding riders' laziness. I don't care that the hunter world has changed and not for the better, that does not mean we reward the negative changes at risk to the horse. Maybe low doses of Ace are just fine in competition but it's more than that, it is about the mindset used behind the decision to Ace a horse as opposed to learn to train that horse effectively for his job (in a manner that best benefits the horse).

I don't agree with trading Ace for Mg either.

....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

I rode hunters as a child, and I had a lot of fun riding my horse without any mood altering drugs whatsoever (for me or for him).

I was just an ordinary kid in an ordinary barn riding a fairly ordinary and relatively inexpensive TB. We won our share of local ribbons. We had a good time. We went to shows and we hacked at home and we imitated the Foxfield drill team riding our horses bridleless and bareback. We liked going to shows because we hung out with our horses and each other.

Reading these threads yesterday and today... makes me glad for the first time that I didn't have the money to get my daughter going in pony hunters, even at a local level. Apparently the sport I enjoyed as a child is just gone.

It shocks me to see people defending on any level the idea of a trainer having a medication program for all the horses in the barn. Imagine if a mother of 4 kids told you that every day before a big test at school that she injected the kids with a muscle relaxant, an antihistamine, and a painkiller.... you'd be on the phone to CPS.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

Buah-ha-ha-ha-ha. AQHA HUS horses aren't lunged/prepped. No, nothing bad ever happens to them such as being drugged, tied up, not fed/watered, drugged, lunged, or drugged. Oh yes, they are all perfectly-suitable for their careers right out of the womb.

Thanks for the laugh. I'll be giggling all day now.

Certainly the AQHA circuit is not where I'd go for a competition atmosphere full of drug-free and ethical behavior... but I think the poster's point was that AQHA bred horses are *gems* for beginner riders especially, and shamefully overlooked because they're not fashionable enough. I rode quite a few AQHA bred horses when I was a kid in the hunters, and they taught me a ton, more than I really appreciated at the time. They're nice horses with good minds, and maybe they don't create quite the same picture, but they do create beautiful, safe rounds and riders.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

Poltroon, I agree with you. I have never owned AQHA horses and have ridden few so I'm not speaking specifically to any breed, but overall I think one of the problems is that we've devalued naturally quiet horses that are truly SUITABLE for lower level riders because they aren't as fancy as people are looking for. I started showing in the mid-90s, and even then there were a lot more not-so-fancy, been-there done-that campaigners who absolutely cleaned up in the Ch/AA hunters because they were suited to their job and to their riders.
When did the lower level hunters suddenly require a gorgeous athletic horse with a brilliant jump and 10 movement? At the pro levels, sure, that's the objective, but they have pros riding who can deal with the brilliant jump and the spirited horse that normally goes along with it. A trainer I worked with recently had a 14 yr old client currently showing 2'6", not ready for 3', but looking to move up soon. Obviously a fairly novice rider for her age. Their price point was $75k and they went UP because they couldn't find anything (how?!) and ended up buying something incredibly fancy, recently imported in the 150 range. I have no idea how well she suits the horse but still, the whole thing blows my mind. I get that they want her to win, but really? Why not buy something middle of the road fancy that will enable her to find the fences, let her learn on it, and then see if the whole riding thing even works out? Maybe I'm naive, but I've been showing for awhile and that to me just seems likes people with a lot of money but limited knowledge getting played and way overspending for their needs. Who benefits?

Sure they do...they're called Quarter Horses. But heaven forbid you show up at an A-rated hunter show with one of those "cow ponies".

good freakin' lord. I was just about to bring up that my mare is an appendix QH...quiet, but not in a dead way and such a pro at shows. Is she a 10 mover? nope. Have great confirmation that's perfectly suited to her job? nope. She's a failed Western Pleasure horse but damnit does she do her job well now.

If i smell like peppermint, I gave my horse treats.
If I smell like shampoo, I gave my horse a bath.
If I smell like manure, I tripped.

I am sorry that I skipped a lot of the reading but this is my opinion... The reason the drug rules are put in place is to:
1. Keep the horse safe
2. Keep the rider safe
3. Keep the playing field even!

I don't understand why people cant just use the horse in a dicipline where it would be successful without being drugged if that is a trail horse, hunter or jumper or none of the above. People should try to fix long term problems instead of dealing with things in short term. IMHO if someone can not deal with the horse without drugs, they have no business on the horse in the first place. Sorry for the rant, just my honest opinion.

I disagree the fact a rider is unwilling to learn to ride and train the horse they have means we should therefore stoop to their level and lower our standards to the level of their laziness. The answer to a "playful" horse or a disobedient horse or anything a horse is or does, is not to drug him. If YOU choose to work with him and use him for sport then it is up to YOU to train him to do the job you are requesting of him.

It makes me sick to consider rewarding riders' laziness. I don't care that the hunter world has changed and not for the better, that does not mean we reward the negative changes at risk to the horse. Maybe low doses of Ace are just fine in competition but it's more than that, it is about the mindset used behind the decision to Ace a horse as opposed to learn to train that horse effectively for his job (in a manner that best benefits the horse).

I don't agree with trading Ace for Mg either.

The elite hunter industry already stoops to the level that you think is lazy. That is what wins and people who are paying an insane amount of money to go to the big AA rated shows want to win. A playful, fresh hunter is not going to get a high score.

LaurieP is correct in her statement that "The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY."

Say WHAT?? To answer your question: learn to ride and train the horse you have! A good horse is made by a good rider, he does not just majikally happen and therefore only available in limited quantities.

That is fine and good, but that is not what is going to win in the hunter divisions. Today's top hunters are a limited and expensive commodity.

The elite hunter industry already stoops to the level that you think is lazy. That is what wins and people who are paying an insane amount of money to go to the big AA rated shows want to win. A playful, fresh hunter is not going to get a high score.

LaurieP is correct in her statement that "The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY."

When riders and trainers resort to statements such as above, tacitly accepting the status quo, they stop being HORSEMEN. They become nothing more than consumers of the animal for their own egos. Hence my disgust with the hunters and refusal to consider any "modern" or young person who likes to brag that they show in them a horseman. I pretty much dismiss their horse related ideas and techniques as cheap and uninformed.

Pitiful. Just pitiful.

Stand up, get some balls, get involved and MAKE THINGS CHANGE. Whining is the domain of losers.

Poltroon, I agree with you. I have never owned AQHA horses and have ridden few so I'm not speaking specifically to any breed, but overall I think one of the problems is that we've devalued naturally quiet horses that are truly SUITABLE for lower level riders because they aren't as fancy as people are looking for. I started showing in the mid-90s, and even then there were a lot more not-so-fancy, been-there done-that campaigners who absolutely cleaned up in the Ch/AA hunters because they were suited to their job and to their riders.
When did the lower level hunters suddenly require a gorgeous athletic horse with a brilliant jump and 10 movement? At the pro levels, sure, that's the objective, but they have pros riding who can deal with the brilliant jump and the spirited horse that normally goes along with it. A trainer I worked with recently had a 14 yr old client currently showing 2'6", not ready for 3', but looking to move up soon. Obviously a fairly novice rider for her age. Their price point was $75k and they went UP because they couldn't find anything (how?!) and ended up buying something incredibly fancy, recently imported in the 150 range. I have no idea how well she suits the horse but still, the whole thing blows my mind. I get that they want her to win, but really? Why not buy something middle of the road fancy that will enable her to find the fences, let her learn on it, and then see if the whole riding thing even works out? Maybe I'm naive, but I've been showing for awhile and that to me just seems likes people with a lot of money but limited knowledge getting played and way overspending for their needs. Who benefits?

Who benefits? The trainer who just made a butt load more of a commission and will now get even more in "training" fees. And they never had to teach the kid how to ride.

LaurieP is correct in her statement that "The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY."

So, what do you suggest as an alternative to a suitable horse or an educated rider?
Drugs?
Personally, I'd just as soon see the whole system crash and burn.

Ok I'm not a hunter but in australian jumping we spend 3-12 weeks on the road at a time or more depending on how committed you are. That is in stables 24/7 and the added once or twice a week travelling to the next show.
Every morning I wake up at 5am and the horses got their morning walk (earlier if I took more then two horses)
They were then fed
I would then saddle up and ride around the show grounds before each class, at least 10mins of walking and trotting before the first class, if the horse is fresh. Very fresh ones get a little more.
Anytime I am not riding a horse I am leading one or two around unless it's my lunch.
Then I take them for a walk again before I shower and retire to my float (trailer, whatever it is you call it there) for bed.

It's possible to keep horses happy while stabled. It just takes commitment but I guess this is the base problem. No one wants to put in this amount of work. Personally I love it. I would rather spend hours upon hours with my horse rather than jab it.

I think another elephant in the room is use of drugs to keep sore horses going. Everybody is jumping on the tranqs when the stacking of all sorts of nsaids and the robaxin and other painkillers and muscle relaxants is all that is keeping sore horses going around and living in those 10x10 stalls on pavement 40 weeks a year.

I can see use of a little for their comfort, used it on mine as needed within the acceptable time frame. But, really, if the horse is doing to much, conformationally unsuited for regular jumping week after week or jumping the desired height or just all worn out? Some owners just pay for the trainer to reach into the meds trunk for more and more stuff to keep them going if they were hurting.

IMO thats a much bigger issue then the tranqs, many were Aced in the "good old days" but they got rested, not given a cocktail of multiple drugs to keep going.

I am really starting to think a positive should negate at least some points in that show year, including Medal and Indoor qualification, for any and all involved with that specifc horse. Repeat violations for the specific horse and trainer should cost ALL points in that show year. That ought to get their attention. Maybe a little more lenient for first offenders, mistakes do happen...but some trainers seem to make alot of them.

I don't care whether you're over-using NSAID's, abusing tranqs, shaking up strange cocktails or whatever. The bottom line is it's all CHEATING, for the primary financial benefit of the TRAINERS. The horses are endangered, the riders are endangered and also being cheated of a legitimate achievement in which they can take pride, and the entire "sport" is now losing its reputation as a place you even want your kid participating.

Right up there with bicycle racing, except the animals can't choose. "Elite," you say? Strange kind of elitism if you ask me.

That is fine and good, but that is not what is going to win in the hunter divisions. Today's top hunters are a limited and expensive commodity.

Then the hunter division is either going to need to resign itself to being only for a handful of horses and people at the six-figure level, or they will have to find a way for lesser mortals to enjoy it as well.

That used to be the purpose of the 3' division, a place where lesser mortals and $5k horses could have a good time and sometimes come home with a ribbon.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

Certainly the AQHA circuit is not where I'd go for a competition atmosphere full of drug-free and ethical behavior... but I think the poster's point was that AQHA bred horses are *gems* for beginner riders especially, and shamefully overlooked because they're not fashionable enough. I rode quite a few AQHA bred horses when I was a kid in the hunters, and they taught me a ton, more than I really appreciated at the time. They're nice horses with good minds, and maybe they don't create quite the same picture, but they do create beautiful, safe rounds and riders.

Hang on a second--the modern AQHA HUS are NOT beginner-friendly automatically. For one thing they are often 3/4 to 15/16 TB, which often isn't the quietest combination. Then, there are many, many nasty things that are done to them to "make them" so level-headed. I've ridden many of them, and my full TB was a hundred times quieter/easier to ride than either of the QHs I owned. Nevermind how crippled many of them become before they hit 10 years old. (I am talking about those AQHAs who showed; those luckily enough to not be that fancy are, I'm sure, a different story.)

"And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."

Hang on a second--the modern AQHA HUS are NOT beginner-friendly automatically. For one thing they are often 3/4 to 15/16 TB, which often isn't the quietest combination. Then, there are many, many nasty things that are done to them to "make them" so level-headed. I've ridden many of them, and my full TB was a hundred times quieter/easier to ride than either of the QHs I owned. Nevermind how crippled many of them become before they hit 10 years old. (I am talking about those AQHAs who showed; those luckily enough to not be that fancy are, I'm sure, a different story.)

I have never worked with a QH who was part of the AQHA circuit, only some of the thousands and thousands of QH that are out and about just doing horsey jobs, many of which are appendix one way or another. I would say that the horses I was working with were not necessarily bred to be AQHA show horses.

If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

Why don't people learn to ride and stop cheating. This is ridiculous. If everyone played fair none of this would be a problem because not only would the horses' health be out of danger, but the standard of judging would be forced to change. Maybe those who don't have time to learn to ride correctly and prepare their own horses shouldn't show?