Very serious! To explain, I gather that Balpa had an issue with the 757 flying mainline routes if mainline pilots were let go, so the solution was for the BMI board to approach Astraeus with the offer to extend the contract beyond March if they were to use BMI pilots to fly it. Unfortunately not much use to us guys who are bound to be laid off in six months

I understand the issue here, but would bmi really spend twenty odd grand on each pilot's TR for a max of one year extension

From the latest Q & AQ Has there been any mention of the impact the 757 lease has on our operation / redundancies Ė Is it still flying for us? If so how does this effect the situation?

A. The 757 contract will be renewed for a further year. Airbus narrow body aircraft do not have the range necessary to operate some essential services non-stop. Agreement has been reached with Astraeus for 14 bmi pilots to fly their aircraft so mitigating the effect on pilot jobs in bmi.

Q How are we going to select which pilots go on the 757?

A. This will be a secondment so we will seek volunteers after discussions with BALPA.

Q The pilots who applied to go on the 757 last time, do they need to re-apply.

A. There will be no requirement for a further interview with Astraeus, but they will need to register their interest with J H or B B.

I'm really surprised that everyone is concentrating on the Astreaus contract, which appears to have been worked out reasonably amicable whilst everyone is glossing over the fact that bmi have made NO MENTION of removing the Pay As You Go cadets.

At any time 8+ cadets on this reprehensible scheme are going to be flying as a First Officer for bmi until they reach 150 hours, some 2-3 months later!!! Meanwhile Company First Officers are at home twiddling their thumbs on standby whilst these cadets take their hours and jobs.

bmi are talking about 129 redundancies yet these cadets will still be there after the bmi staff have been shown the door. This means that 8+jobs could have been saved but instead it appears the company are more interested in protecting the training captains from demotion to line captains, which is not suprising as 90% of bmi pilot managers are also training captains.

The whole scheme is disgusting, bmi are willing to let 8 pilots lose their jobs so they can continue to train and then charge these cadets £40'000 for the privilege of joinging the dole queue with people with 2000 more hours on type.

Surely from a moral if not legal standpoint bmi has to do everything in it's power to mitigate redundancies, surely this is exactly the opposite on every conceivable level?

Surely this scheme should have been finished the day the redundancies were announced???

The whole scheme is disgusting, bmi are willing to let 8 pilots lose their jobs so they can continue to train and then charge these cadets £40'000 for the privilege of joinging the dole queue with people with 2000 more hours on type.

-Not true; The morality of these guys being here (and I have to say their sanity) is questionable, but given that it has been acknowledged that the revenue generated keeps the excess trainers training, it is preferable from the airline's point of view to maintain the currency of this valuable resource in the event of a future upturn. As for the guys 'displaced' from their flights they can, if they want to, come along for the ride and claim: a) the flight pay, and b)the hours as 'other flying'. The company has indicated that if anyone in the 'drop zone' is getting close to an hours target for eligibility, or ATPL unfreezing, then they will endeavour to roster these guys' hours to the max.

The bottom line is that no-one will lose their job as a result of these cadets, and if their presence is affecting hours, etc. then the aim is to minimize that effect.

From a personal point of view, given that the daily expenses probably wouldn't cover the cost of petrol, etc; and I'm not chasing hours,- I am more than happy to spend an extra day with my family on the few occasions where I'm given a day off in lieu of these cadets.

-But, for clarity; once again, I question the morality of such schemes, and also the wisdom of the cadets in the current climate, given that they will probably be

As your lovely colleague RAINBOE has pointed out on the Aer Lingus thread, this is all about MARKET FORCES.......

.....AEU were happy to see Aer Lingus Pilots laid off, so I can't really see many people shedding a tear for what many see as a parasitic union busting airline.

Perhaps Rainboe will be one of the 14?

Anyway, what goes around comes around........

(Just had a thought. Perhaps the benevolent AEU management will type you all on these 320's that are being used to destroy other pilots' careers? Naah. Thought not. The taxi driving Spivs are only interested in one thing. THEMSELVES.)

but given that it has been acknowledged that the revenue generated keeps the excess trainers training, it is preferable from the airline's point of view to maintain the currency of this valuable resource in the event of a future upturn.

we should tell the truth bmi have always been top heavy with trainers, even when the airline didnít run a command course for over 7 years the training department flourished. Right now at current numbers they have too many trainers, yet they are reducing the flight deck population by over a quarter and surprise, surprise the trainers find a way to protect themselves during this time.

Letís not paint this cadet scheme as anything other than what it is Ė a jobs for the boys training ticket protection scheme!!!

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From a personal point of view, given that the daily expenses probably wouldn't cover the cost of petrol, etc; and I'm not chasing hours,- I am more than happy to spend an extra day with my family on the few occasions where I'm given a day off in lieu of these cadets.

Then I can only assume you will be one of the first to volunteer for redundancy, think of how much petrol money you will save then.

I'm sure the 8 redundant pilots who could have kept their jobs had this scheme be thrown out will have bigger things to worry about than petrol money.

Letís not paint this cadet scheme as anything other than what it is Ė a jobs for the boys training ticket protection scheme!!!

Sorry, but that's a load of b*ll*cks. If the PAYG cadets stop coming, it has been stated at the roadshows that the likelihood is that the training tickets will be pulled for those over & above the required. I was merely stating that if the revenue coming in was paying to keep the trainers with their 'ticket', the only downside will be the hours accrued by those taken off their sectors. (and that crewing will endeavour to put as many hours as poss towards those guys).

Quote:

Then I can only assume you will be one of the first to volunteer for redundancy, think of how much petrol money you will save then.

I'm sure the 8 redundant pilots who could have kept their jobs had this scheme be thrown out will have bigger things to worry about than petrol money.

Firstly,- er,- no I won't - why should I? - anyone who needs the hours or expenses is more than welcome to take my place on the jumpseat.

I see, then - so you're saying that if you were rostered a day off in lieu of these cadets (which you could use to spend with your family, for example) - you would travel to work and either sit on the jumpseat of an aeroplane to earn a tenner in expenses, or sit around the crew room & the terminal for said period of time (where a few cups of coffee & a sarnie will easily cost you a tenner) - and travel back home again having spent a similar amount on petrol!??

I note that you keep banging on about 8 jobs going as a result of the PAYG cadets. The existence of these guys makes diddly-squat difference to the numbers at the end of the day.- in an ideal world they shouldn't be there, I have said so before, but with respect, I really don't see your problem with these guys.

The real problem is the fact that there are EMBs flying mainline routes out of LHR in contravention of the scope agreement; this alone is gonna cost 30 jobs if it is not resolved. - rather makes all of the grief above seem like a p*ss in the ocean, doesn't it?

Let's make this totally straight. I don't have any sympathy for AEU losing work, when that work rightfully and legally belongs to others.

You lose the 757 work? Well, it was a legally agreed deal between BMI and it's pilots that AEU were only filling a gap. ACMI work is notoriously fickle.

Aer Lingus? Well, it seems 100 Irish Pilots were sitting at home awaiting redundancy as AEU/AL did the dirty.

You have loudmouths like Rainboe spouting joyfully about MARKET FORCES and gleefully telling all and sundry that this is the way forward.

Well, now the Chickens are coming home to roost for some, and I personally hope that those who have crowed about MARKET FORCES and how lucky people are to be able to apply for their own jobs.....etc etc etc.... well, let's just say I am looking forward to seeing some medecine being doled out.

Short sighted? No, not me. I'm a forward thinking bloke who knows all too well that if any AEU pilots are laid off they'll find new jobs. Of course, they'll be MARKET FORCES pay rate jobs, but Rainboe should be able to advise you.........

Well firstly anyone with a shred of common human decency: Personally I am concerned when any pilot loses their job as I have been through it and it is not a pleasant time, more selfishly it always limits the options in the industry in general.Anyway there is no indication this will occur as we always have new stuff ticking over thanks.

Your issue seems to be with 'rainboe' so i suggest you confine your vitriol to your argument with him.

Only a few weeks ago the deal was AEU taking work from other Pilots in AL Mainline in an attempted Union Bust.

Now, it's Midland Pilots standing up for their rights and flying their own rightful work.

Bravo!! I applaud them.

If you work on the margins for an AEU (ACMI) type operator and offer your services to all and sundry, this is always going to happen.

Rainboe (with his fat pension - already discussed) and that nice Heavy Metal type chappie will of course stand down to protect their colleagues. So, the number should be a maximum of 12............

What sticks in my throat is that AEU guys didn't bat an eyelid when the Union Bust was being introduced.... in fact, there was a distinct I'm alright Jack attitude. But now, less than a month on, we're meant to be gnashing our teeth in angst at Midland Pilots taking back what is their legally recognised flying.