What's there to talk about? There's a crazy white guy who took 'revenge' on Muslims. It's no small wonder it took so long to happen. It's evil of course, and he's nuts, like most murderers and other people who can't control their passions.

I don't want to upset anyone, I am genuinely shocked to hear that people believe they can prove the existence of God. I would have assumed that would have been a massive worldwide breaking news story. I'm not being fatuous, I'm serious.

Most people make up their mind first from whatever positive/negative experiences they've had in their own life and don't want to be confused by the facts. When confronted by such evidence (usually not in a loving way unfortunately) they will reflexively seek to mock or otherwise ignore anything that could demand a reevaluation of their beliefs (human nature, for both sides)

I believe a purely objective look into these things reveals a lot more plausibility to an intelligent creator than an accident. It's been a while, but I know Lee Strobel has various books that admittedly aren't entirely objective (which is hard for anyone to achieve) but it's a nice compilation of facts for someone if they chose to see where an earnest investigation takes them.

Aside from all that, God wasn't ever supposed to be some kind of religious condiment that you sprinkle on your life. The Holy Spirit powered life documented in the book of Acts and demonstrated by Jesus is supposed to be the norm for every believer. Admittedly this is only a marginal percentage of believers, but I think this will change soon.

==========================<--- The ghost with the most!---------------------------[Website] [Youtube]

I was riding my bicycle a couple weeks ago after having a bad day. The weather turned rather quickly after I left, and I said aloud, "if there were a god he's really pathetic."

Within a minute I was in an accident. Was it a sign of divine retribution? Or was it just me riding aggressively because i was royally pissed off?

I know it was just the latter.

For the record, I know how emotionally charged spiritual experiences work. I had delusions that we are the dreams of Old Ones (ala Lovecraft), and eldritch parasites are working to awaken them. When I was really sick, I had experiences, including visual hallucinations, that re-inforced these beliefs.

But it wasn't real. Subjectively, I have more 'proof' (in the sense of personal experiences) of Old Ones and eldritch abominations than I do of the Christian god (of the latter, none). How funny is that?

The only way I was able to function was to apply a rigid objectivist worldview in spite of the delusions. Most people hardly knew I was sick. It worked in all but the most psychotic (but thankfully brief) of episodes.

It's called take your medication. I know when I get off my meds my head gets funny and I have bad thoughts that aren't really my own, but they like to push themself on me. That has nothing to do with why I believe in God. I don't hear any voices in my head nevertheless I guess I just call them demons, cuz that's what they really are. You know, when Jesus cured sickness, he one time said, "Your sins are forgiven you, take up your bed and rise" and they accused Jesus of blaspheming. He said to them, which is better, that I say to the man "you are healed, arise" or that I say his sins are forgiven? But that ye may know that the Son of Man has power on Earth to forgive sin, "take up your bed and rise".

2 And just then some people were carrying a paralyzed man lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 Then some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Stand up, take your bed and go to your home.” 7 And he stood up and went to his home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were filled with awe, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to human beings.

Felix-The-Ghost said:

No one else has the Holy Spirit...

How do you know? Does it always manifest the same way? Not everyone has the same gifts in the same proportions.

Please don't misquote me Edgar. I don't pretend to have some secret knowledge no one else has, the Holy Spirit is available to everyone, but the first world "church" is mostly deprived of it for at best simple ignorance or at worst false teaching that those gifts were only for the original apostles.

==========================<--- The ghost with the most!---------------------------[Website] [Youtube]

When a Muslim attack happens, everyone refuses to make eye contact and pretends it didn't happen--and attacks anyone who dares actually talk about it. When a retaliation attack happens (because nobody is dealing with the problem), all a sudden "THINGS NEED TO CHANGE!" It's also IMMEDIATELY called a terrorist attack if a white guy does it.

And if it helps: Hell yeah, I--as a Christian--disown, disapprove, and shit all over any guy who would kill innocent people--including the scumbag piece of crap that just attacked those innocent Muslims. And if I ever see a guy near me that threatens to do the same? I'm calling the cops on him. I'll refuse service to him. I'll refuse to enable him. And if I saw him host a YouTube video, I'd comment and call him a piece of shit.

Words are cheap. The least I can do is call the guy a scumbag. So I don't understand why people think that's such a difficult thing to do--to publicly condemn a bad person who supposedly is a member of your religion.

To be clear, I'm not attacking your points but just elaborating on my own. And when I watch the MSM, politicians, and people act so completely differently whether the person turns out to be of Religion X or Religion Y ("I can't make up my mind until I find out what race/color/religion/gender this monster was before I support or hate them!"), I find that appalling. Justice is blind. That means something beautiful and should be near to everyone's heart and we should all strive for it.

Right and wrong comes first, not the persons affiliation. Murder is murder. Rape is rape. Things like female genital mutilation is wrong no matter what someone's traditions, religion, or ancestors had to endure. And as such, we should strive for our reactions to crimes to be equally blind. A person that embezzles money that puts lead into children's drinking water is a scumbag--whether they vote for my "party" or not, or agree with my worldviews or not, doesn't matter.

When a Muslim attack happens, everyone refuses to make eye contact and pretends it didn't happen--and attacks anyone who dares actually talk about it. When a retaliation attack happens (because nobody is dealing with the problem), all a sudden "THINGS NEED TO CHANGE!" It's also IMMEDIATELY called a terrorist attack if a white guy does it.

Interesting. A lot of the discussion I've seen has had people complaining of the exact opposite - that everyone is happy to jump on the all Muslims are terrorists bandwagon, but are trying to find justification for this guy.

I've seen about an even split of both those, and people don't see it either way.

Personally, I'm hesitant to call him a terrorist at this point, unless more about his motivations and intentions come to light. He seems more like a guy who is angry and wants to kill the people he hates, who in this case happen to be muslims. I think of him more like the Columbine shooters, or serial killers who target women due to emotional issues.

It's a pity there seem to be enough people without anything to lose in the European banlieus and elsewhere; I think they can be lured by the mere fact that they have a chance to matter at all, albeit very negatively. They experience that they won't make it in the economy; in their countries of origin, they're Europeans, and in the country they live in, they're foreigners. With no steady spiritual home and much frustration and anger, they turn to someone who tells them they could be important. These home-grown terrorists are most difficult to spot.

Generally, Islam is taking a very conservative turn in the past decades. This is supported with petrodollars by certain countries we all know. In case of the so called IS, it's quite clear: Let's not forget that their roots lie in Saddam's security services the staff of which were fired by US governors. Without jobs and angry at their conquerors, they withdrew to peacefully water their roses.

The disparate responses are an attempt to balance the equation. A white guy does something bad, and he is a scumbag vs. a muslim/black guy does something wrong, and Islam is an evil religion/muslims are bad/black people are criminals.

Justice can try all it likes to be blind, but we as a society are crippled with biases. Because, at present, there is strong anti-Islamic sentiment in the US (and many parts of the western world) placing emphasis on traits that contradict our biases is a useful tool in combatting them.

It's the same principal as affirmative action, which is the same principal as Mario Kart. The further behind in the race you are, the more useful your power-ups and the more aid you are given. In Mario Kart, this is stupid, because it's a race, but in real life, we're trying to move forward as a group. There shouldn't be winners and losers.

Rephrased succinctly, society should treat it's people equitably until equal treatment is equivalent.

. A white guy does something bad, and he is a scumbag vs. a muslim/black guy does something wrong, and Islam is an evil religion/muslims are bad/black people are criminals.

You intentionally mischaracterized my good will point, to imply a racist undertone. The point was (assuming he's "of my religion"), I'm disowning and shaming him. The point was, words are cheap and it's not hard to condemn him--so why shouldn't we expect the same from other groups of people? The truth is, Muslims (of which there are over 1.4 BILLION) are treated like a minority that can't defend itself, or be expected to follow the rules of everyone else. They're handled with kid gloves. They do something horrific, like endorse female genital mutilation or child marriage, and the world goes "It's not their fault. It's evil white men's fault for FORCING them to do those bad things."

-----sig:“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Muslims are a minority in the US (and most western countries). Their global population is irrelevant as it can do nothing to defend them from local discrimination and harassment. Again, equitable treatment until equal treatment is equivalent.

I'm not certain where you're getting your information, but I've not seen anyone in support of human rights violations. That said, those evil Muslim theocracies in the Middle East (and they are evil) were put in place by aseriesofcoups orchestrated primarily by the US and UK for our own economic benefit. It would be disingenuous to not accept a certain amount of responsibility for what those governments do.

So don't you dare bring your smug, arrogant attitude and tell ME God is a figment of my imagination! I have absolute PROOF HE exists and if you do NOT change your attitude before it is too late and pray for forgiveness you WILL be VERY sorry mister!!!

I wasn't being mean. The facts are, there is a God, and He will punish those who disobey Him and especially those who mock Him. If they do not pray for forgiveness (He is quick to forgive, so this won't be a problem), they can avoid any punishment. But if they do not, the Bible is clear what will happen to the wicked who mock God. When I say "you will be very sorry", I mean it... it is not a threat from me, I literally meant that when they are standing at the resurrection and judged, and if they have not repented, they may find themselves kicking and screaming as two strong angels drag them to the precipice of a cliff and throw them over it into a lake of fire to be destroyed. Now forgetting your atheism for just a second, IF this is all true, would you not agree that those who mock God will be sorry in this situation that they did not ask for forgiveness and stop while they had the chance?

Anyhow, whether you believe this or not, that is what I meant. Not in a mean spirit, but just an honest one.

It's just too bad everyone focuses on that one LAST comment of mine and totally ignores everything I wasted my time sharing about what has happened to me. After all, it's more fun to mock believers and paint them as idiots. I have given this a lot of thought, lots of study and I just know there is a God. I could go on at length about WHY I believe the way I do and the logic I use, but I have done that in here before and it never ends well. Because people are not interested in learning what I believe, they are only looking for "funny material" they can mock me on. Because that's what these forums are all about... having fun at someone else's expense.

About Muslims. While I know there are some good ones. I still do not like the religion, mainly because if you look into it, you will see plenty of verses in their Qur'an which commands them to kill unbelievers. I have nothing against other religions like Sihks (sp?), Hindus etc... because they don't have doctrines to do with murdering non-believers. Muslims do, though most do not follow their own beliefs, which we can be thankful for.

I actually agree with quite a few Muslim ideas more so than Roman Catholicism, which I cannot stand. I despise modern day Sunday Christianity FAR MORE than I do Muslims honestly. But that's another topic.

The main topic of this entire thread was the London attack, and it was done by Muslims. Whether most Muslims support that attack or not is another issue, perhaps not. But I do not feel the media should be covering it all up and I don't think every time we talk about a Muslim/Islam terrorist attack, that the thread should suddenly turn into a "yeah well, what about Christians!" bullshit followed by mocking, scoffing posts.

Anyhow... I'll live to regret posting in here again, but it's a quiet, boring night.

If they do not pray for forgiveness..., they can avoid any punishment.

Thank Christ! Default escape clause.

Quote:

...they may find themselves kicking and screaming as two strong angels drag them to the precipice of a cliff and throw them over it into a lake of fire to be destroyed. Now forgetting your atheism for just a second, IF this is all true, would you not agree that those who mock God will be sorry in this situation that they did not ask for forgiveness and stop while they had the chance?

I'm sure death by fire is a pretty terrible way to go, but unless you believe that every man, woman, or child (or animal, for that matter) that dies of fire is being punished by God then you have to accept that it's not a supernatural death, but rather a natural one that could occur in real life. That or you interpret some kind of supernatural meaning from the words. The "Hell" usually described by Christians does sound pretty terrifying. The more natural "lake of fire" you describe sounds not so bad considering.

In any case, you can threaten as much as you like from your "holy" book. If I weigh everything I have learned about the Bible and about Christianity and the concept of a God that seems mysteriously absent today against the possibility that it's all a bunch of superstition invented by humans millenniums ago I'm forced to conclude that it's more likely to be the latter than the former. And there is plenty of evidence in the Bible itself that the Christian God is not one that I would have much respect for anyway even if it did happen to exist (which is further evidence that it's an imperfect creation of a human brain instead of an omnipotent being, but I digress).

I'll take my chances. It doesn't worry me at all. Your threats are no more serious to me than if I were to say to you, "devote your life to the flying spaghetti monster or you'll freeze for all eternity in pastafarian Hell". You have no evidence for your beliefs. And while I don't truly believe in the flying spaghetti monster (nobody does, hint, hint, that's the fucking joke), if I did, I'd have no evidence for mine. If we all live our lives based on such empty threats or believe in things without evidence then we'll all just be living in chaos. Much like the East appears to be doing. Curious that.

Death by fire isn't funny, and I don't believe he ever prescribed that specific punishment for anyone or anything either. In fact God is quoted as saying that the thought of sacrificing his children in fire never even occurred to him (people who whorshipped Molech did that). The only people consumed by fire were the ones who were trying to kill Elijah, and he called fire down from heaven on them.

However, the lake of fire is a place where your soul gets disintegrated. You're wiped out. I doubt he designed it to be painful or prolonged. The 'going up in smoke for ever and ever' bit refers to the permanence of the action. It can't be reversed. Ever heard the part where God tells Satan he will 'turn him to ashes from within'? That's what he's referring to.

It's just too bad everyone focuses on that one LAST comment of mine and totally ignores everything I wasted my time sharing about what has happened to me.

The last comment is often the one with the biggest impact, and you chose to put that one last. I for one didn't ignore the rest, but I did notice how you undermined it all afterwards, and I gave you honest, constructive feedback about it.

Quote:

After all, it's more fun to mock believers and paint them as idiots. ... people are not interested in learning what I believe, they are only looking for "funny material" they can mock me on.

I doubt it. If you're going to make accusations like that, you should name names. I don't think even bambams considers it 'fun', and I suspect what he is doing is less 'mocking' and more 'trying to convert'. [EDIT: or even only 'trying to justify his own position'.]

Quote:

Because that's what these forums are all about... having fun at someone else's expense.

I'm not seeing it.

Take some responsibility for your words. None of us is perfect, and if you want us to feel convinced, you need to appeal to our imperfect psychology. That means avoid comments that undermine your efforts.

I'm annoyed that you reacted this way to my attempt to be constructive, if you can't tell.

[EDIT]To finish on a more positive note (since what comes last matters) - the rest of that post really was heartwarming.

However, the lake of fire is a place where your soul gets disintegrated. You're wiped out. I doubt he designed it to be painful or prolonged. The 'going up in smoke for ever and ever' bit refers to the permanence of the action. It can't be reversed. Ever heard the part where God tells Satan he will 'turn him to ashes from within'? That's what he's referring to.

Why would ceasing to exist scare me? I didn't exist for billions of years before about 31 years ago. The way I see it, I won't mind not existing for the rest of time.

Or is my "soul" getting "disintegrated" supposed to mean something more than ceasing to exist?

All you atheists, who hate believers,all you believers, who hate atheists, all you Muslims, who hate Western people,all you Western people, who hate Muslims,all you Muslims, who hate other Muslims,all you Christians, who hate other Christians,all you... uh... all of you, who hate each other,go and hang yourself. Or pick a place in Sahara, where you can kill each other.Whatever makes you happy. Or gives you eternal life. Or 72 virgins.

And leave the rest of us atheists, Christians, Muslims, Potrzebists etc alone. We won't miss you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

go and hang yourself. Or pick a place in Sahara, where you can kill each other.

Nope, no hatred in that quote...

The thing is, I don't hate. I don't hate atheists, though I obviously dislike being mocked constantly, I am concerned for their well being. They do not know what they are doing. They have no realization of how much of a reality God is and the horrible end they are setting themselves up for. So what? Who cares right? The alternative is eternal life in a remade universe where death has been done away.

It's difficult to understand why I believe the way I do if you find it so funny you feel you need to mock me for my stupidity. But there is sound logic I could go into in depth as I practically live and breathe this stuff, especially in the past few years, it's why I don't program as much. But I don't go into the details and try and convince anyone because part of what I have learned over the decades of debating this stuff from as far back as the BBS days before the internet is that unless someone genuinely wants to learn the truth, there is nothing I can say that will change their mind.

People who genuinely love the truth and want to learn the truth, can pray to God to open their mind and show them and they will start learning it like never before. But people who hate the truth, mainly because of their own lusts in this life and how they do not wish to part with them, are closed to the truth and do not wish to learn it. And my Bible teaches that God will not open their mind to the truth, because they have no love of it.

It's too bad though because obeying God doesn't mean "no fun", contrary to popular belief, things like sex is not a sin. It is actually encouraged, but between married couples, I can quote you a verse that literally encourages married couples to "come together often to avoid temptation", and it means what you think, slang or not. Also, drinking alchohol is not a sin, Jesus first miracle was turning water into wine, and not just any wine but OLD wine. God's laws are put in place mainly to keep us happy. Look at all the problems in this world with people getting drunk and doing things they later regret, or people who fool around on a spouse and ruin a great marriage. I could go on and on, but the laws don't effect God one way or the other, He put them in place to make us happy and it's just too bad people don't see it.

So many of this world's problems could be totally avoided by obeying God, and God promises to bless people who obey Him (with health, happiness, having food, shelter, clothing etc... everything you need). Job for example was a rich man, because he 100% obeyed God. He was tested and remained faithful, he had lost all his wealth but by the end of the book God gave him back double what he had before. There's just so much good that can comes into ones life from obedience, and I am not talking about Sunday, Roman Catholic style churches, I can't stand them. They do NOT represent God what so ever. Most of what they teach is contrary to what the Bible teaches. You do not go to heaven when you die for example (quote John 3:13 to the next Christian that says you do, it's great tool). Nor do "evil people" burn in a Hell (Catholic false doctrine, not true) forever, what kind of a loving God would do that?!

The next time a Sunday Christian tells you that you go to heaven when you die or hell. Ask them if everyone goes to heaven or hell when they die, who is still in their graves when Jesus returns that He needs to resurrect them? See the hypocrisy? I can quote you verses which tell you that atheists are RIGHT, when you die, that is it, you stay dead! The only difference is that Jesus returns and resurrects you, but otherwise, atheists are correct.

Anyhow, this is already getting lengthy, but suffice it to say, I believe EXACTLY what my Bible teaches, not what Sunday churches and otherwise teach. Big difference in what the Bible teaches and what they teach and I don't feel they do God a service.

Again, reread the miracles in my life. I don't believe for no reason. I have solid evidence. I was a type 2 diabetic on 3 medications a day (4 pills a day) for it. I prayed about it and I am no longer diabetic. No pills, nothing as I already said. This is not my imagination, it happened, it is real and I was healed, for many things. And I literally felt a wave of calm come over me that I will remember until the day I die. You can't know what that felt like to literally feel that wash over me and go from shaking inside and a nervous wreck to practically being "high" with happiness, and just from one quick prayer... I am sure someone thinks I am lying. That's too bad.

Some posters here may notice I'm very cautious in my mention of spirituality. Except when when I'm in a joking mood, I'm actually really careful not to mention things I can't back up. I don't like being made to look like a fool when someone whips out a sourced article that I should have known about.

In a way though, I'm really in awe of the Christians here who dare to, openly, express their religious views to others online--knowing that they'll be obliterated as no better than ghost chasers and people who believe in crystals and horoscopes. You guys are being honest and transparent with your beliefs and that's great and I respect that.

There are tons of events in my life where I should have died, or should have had some horrible thing happen, and each time I was saved. Way too many times for statistical error. I wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for God. But I also understand that (almost) nobody is going to believe me when I say I'm not just haphazardly speaking when I endorse God's work in my life. People are going to assume you're talking out of your butt, or exaggerating His works, or ignoring contradicting details to push an agenda.

I think that's why it's best to lead by example. People will be drawn to you for "being different" if you really embrace Christianity. And those people will listen when they come to you. But trying to tell people who already "have it all together" aren't going to question their fundamental worldviews. I'm not trying to say they're "stubborn" but more reasonably skeptical of ideas.

But once you start living it and seeing things "work out" for you over and over and over (though there's nothing in the Bible that says you'll live an easy life--the opposite in fact), and experiencing the calmness and confidence even when the world is burning down around you... it's a feeling that beats out logic. It can't be explained away.

It's just interesting to me how we come to such a clear impasse. Believers believe. Doubters doubt. And it's impossible to make a connection without someone feeling insulted.

-----sig:“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Why would ceasing to exist scare me? I didn't exist for billions of years before about 31 years ago. The way I see it, I won't mind not existing for the rest of time.

Or is my "soul" getting "disintegrated" supposed to mean something more than ceasing to exist?

To reply specifically to you bam, there was an earth age before this one, where (hu)man wasn't in the flesh. We have all existed for a long long time. It was Satan's rebellion that led a third of God's children to follow him in the catabault(sic) or great flood or calamity etc... so God made every human soul to walk the earth in the flesh and to live once. And as the story goes, if you do what is right, you get to live on forever, without fear of pain or sorrow or death because that will all be done away with.

@Neil/me shakes head

Please stop teaching that every one who has died is still rotting away in their graves waiting for Jesus to bring their corpses back to life. That is NOT Biblical. Read the story of Lazarus and the Rich man again, and again, and again, until you acknowledge that. There are two sides to heaven separated by an un-crossable chasm. Good people go to one side, bad people go to the other one. God is God of the Living. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who are still alive in heaven with God looking down now...).