Weinstein rolls with Fraggle Rock movie

The kind of edge they should stay away from are pop culture references of Outer Space because Fraggles are timeless and not supposed to know about such things. That's the edge that would be icky.

Considering the Muppet movie is shooting now and the Happy Time Murders is shooting in January, you'd think that Weinstein would want to get something Fraggley in production pretty soon.

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That's the worst part, isn't it? Edge IS very subjective. But the other thing is, people want to move AWAY from edge as far as kiddy movies go. Edge is usually a bad thing, I know it, the filmmakers know it, the film going public knows it... but somehow everyon'e STILL inexplicably drawn to making movies edgy.

To me, edgy means, all characters have to be mean for some reason, one has to be an obvious loud obnoxious stereotype of a minority, they have to make obvious references to movies every single minute (reusing the dreaded line from Scarface a million more times till it loses all its meaning) putting as many at the moment (and I mean red hot at the moment at the moment... just out of the box, not even a year in showbusiness) people in the film artificially, and of course, dancing to obvious, passe G-rated Hip Hop from as recent as 10 years ago.

In other words, Kangaroo Jack for example.

Now, I don't see how backhanded compliment at the human race , which is what Fraggle Rock essentially is, isn't the edgiest thing you can think of. Dinosaurs wasn't just edgy, it was downright subversive. And it didn't need non-stop hip hop soundtracks and wisecracking minority family friendly stereotypes. But Fraggles always mirrored the human experiance in a fun house mirror saying "you're being ridiculous, you know that?" without being in your face preachy (cough cough Captain Planet).

As for the other films... if nothing else, waiting to see how ell they both do would be a good sign for them to start the film, sure... but we have another year before the Muppet movie... and we wouldn't see FR foreseeably until 2013 at the EARLIEST if things go according to plan.

That's the worst part, isn't it? Edge IS very subjective. But the other thing is, people want to move AWAY from edge as far as kiddy movies go. Edge is usually a bad thing, I know it, the filmmakers know it, the film going public knows it... but somehow everyon'e STILL inexplicably drawn to making movies edgy.

To me, edgy means, all characters have to be mean for some reason...

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Yeah, that's very often what it means.

When Toy Story was being developed, Jeffrey Katzenberg (he was at Disney at the time) was a big fan of "edgy" which meant "adult", characters who were smart alecs, almost on the edge of insult humor.
Pixar kept getting notes from Disney, and Pixar would do their best to address all of the notes,

When they showed the story reels to Disney, it was awful. Referred to as "black Friday"
Luckily, Pixar was allowed to have two weeks to turn things around, (to make the kind of movie that they wanted to make) and the rest is history.

As an example of how bad it was, here is some of the story reels that were shown on that "black Friday" screening;

When Toy Story was being developed, Jeffrey Katzenberg (he was at Disney at the time) was a big fan of "edgy" which meant "adult", characters who were smart alecs, almost on the edge of insult humor.
Pixar kept getting notes from Disney, and Pixar would do their best to address all of the notes,

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That was mentioned SPECIFICALLY by Corey in his movie blog. And that's what him and all of us were worried about.

Of course, knowing Katzenbuerg almost ruined Toy Story, I can CLEARLY see where Sharktale comes from.

my concern now is that since Wienstein can't get off their ***** and release Hoodwinked 2 already how long will we have to wait till this film actually gets released?

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The fact that they adamantly refuse to release a movie that's completed is the thing that worries me about the future of this project. Again, I just want them to go bankrupt so someone else has a shot of doing this film, and giving the rights to Hoodwinked 2 back to the ACTUAL people who did the movie.

Really, the studio must REALLY be poorly run if they can't even release a movie that's done without someone suing them till they get it out.

But with the new Muppets film being shot now, it'd probably better to wait a bit longer, because I don't think Steve Whitmire or Dave Goelz can do two projects at once.

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Yes they can - with careful planning.

The Muppets did several major projects at once in their heyday (1979 especially being a "full-calendar" year). Elmo in Grouchland and Muppets From Space were done at about the same time. More than one major projects can be done within a small window as long as someone good with details works out the schedules.

The Muppets did several major projects at once in their heyday (1979 especially being a "full-calendar" year). Elmo in Grouchland and Muppets From Space were done at about the same time. More than one major projects can be done within a small window as long as someone good with details works out the schedules.

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Unless they somehow pull this thing out of thin air, there's no concern for that, now is there? Way things are going, they'll have a nice 3 millennia vacation before they have to go film this thing.

They'll probably shoot "The Muppets" until the end of the year and then some of the puppeteers will shoot the "Happytime Murders" from January until March, so the Fraggles could start shooting anytime after that if they wanted to. It's not that far in the future.

When they showed the story reels to Disney, it was awful. Referred to as "black Friday"
Luckily, Pixar was allowed to have two weeks to turn things around, (to make the kind of movie that they wanted to make) and the rest is history.

As an example of how bad it was, here is some of the story reels that were shown on that "black Friday" screening;

Ok, so the pencil like herky jerky animation isnt as graceful as the beautifully rendered cgi version that came out, but that's no reason to scrap a movie! I still woulda seen it if it was in that style of non animation

They'll probably shoot "The Muppets" until the end of the year and then some of the puppeteers will shoot the "Happytime Murders" from January until March, so the Fraggles could start shooting anytime after that if they wanted to. It's not that far in the future.

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But the film is NO WHERE NEAR production stage... not even in preproduction. And I don't expect a miracle to happen in the next few months for Weinstine to say "Aw, the heck with trying to stall time to find a new writer... the script we have is good, let's get this over with." This project is on indefinite hiatus... and that's just a euphemism for "We ain't doing it, but we don't want people to know we're not doing it." Unless Henson, Cory, and whatever partners they have make a STRONG case to get them to make the film as soon as possible, Weinstine is going to sit on the preproduction stage the same way it's sitting on Hoodwinked 2 which is a COMPLETED film that was completed a year ago.

I actually haven't seen that footage, but it makes the film even worse. I don't care how shiny it was or looked had it been in CGI, Bully Woody is unlovable, unrelatable, and just unwatchable. To me, the character was more afraid of his future than vengeful, and he made one huge mistake and felt really really bad about it. This seems like he just had a blind hatred of everyone else, and bullied everyone about. Even Lotso and Stinky Pete had some long, deep seated psychological traumas that made them so... well, sick.

I actually haven't seen that footage, but it makes the film even worse. I don't care how shiny it was or looked had it been in CGI, Bully Woody is unlovable, unrelatable, and just unwatchable. To me, the character was more afraid of his future than vengeful, and he made one huge mistake and felt really really bad about it. This seems like he just had a blind hatred of everyone else, and bullied everyone about. Even Lotso and Stinky Pete had some long, deep seated psychological traumas that made them so... well, sick.

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It's out on the new DVD releases and I fully agree with you on all accounts. The 'edgy' (THAT WORD! ) Woody is just too much of a jerk. No matter how big of a change he would go through over the course of the movie, nobody would care, because they would have no reason to do so. The only people who would relate to that Woody would be irredeemable, unlikable jerks just like him (and that's not a very big audience, amazingly).

The way Woody is in the finished movie makes him relatable, because he starts out as a very likable guy, then, as you said, his jealousy caused him to make a mistake that he was truly sorry about.

I'm not sure that Pixar has ever made a thoroughly unlikeable, nonredeemable character (Heck, even their villains are likable ).

I'm not sure that Pixar has ever made a thoroughly unlikeable, nonredeemable character (Heck, even their villains are likable ).

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Well... I will say as far as villains go, some of them were pretty likable, but a lot of them WEREN'T redeemable. I'm not sure how many people saw TS3, so I'm not going to post spoilers... but Stinky Pete was pretty nonredeemable (he got comeuppance, though), Sid was a bully, the head grasshopper in Bug's Life was pretty unlikable, unrelatable, and ONLY got comeuppance (his brother was likable and redeemable, though)...neither was the Cook in Ratatoullie, the Spirit of Adventure guy in Up (at least he was likable until they mentioned the bird... but that's the kid's fault for being innocent), and Chick Hicks in Cars. But they're all broad, cartoonish evils in those cases. Ones we love to hate, and we're glad that something happens to them in the end. To be fair, that is. But they have never made any BAD good guys.

I'm sure that's not the edgy that Weinstine's talking about with the Fraggles. I'd see them more Flanderized than turning nasty to each other (like they were portrayed as nasty to each other in that Robot Chicken skit... very very BAD one... not an iota as good as Captain Planet or Terminator Inspector gadget was). Again, I can't help but think the "edgy" Smurf movie has something to do with it. The Fraggles going into "Outer Space" seems natural... Smurfs appearing in modern day New York is cynical, mechanical, and willing to make another Underdog/Marmaduke type of farting kiddy movie. Even Dreamworks... DREAMWORKS is trying to stay away from the jaded, cynic "edginess" of Sharktale type movie. Heck, Kung Fu Panda was almost a seriocomic kung fu movie instead of a movie about talking animals. Even Megamind had some heart and vision to it.

Any movie that's still trying 1990's style gimmicks is doomed to look dated and be a failure. Pop culture jokes don't work the same way. Sure, you can do reference... but the references have to be organic and clever (Up's call back to a Star Wars scene for example). You just can't keep going around saying "Say Hello to My Little Friend" no one finds that stuff funny anymore. And kids DON'T like G-rated passe hip hop. No one does. And you can't get "minority" audiences by just slapping the sassiest talking non-Caucasian comedian and have them talk in stereotypes.

I actually haven't seen that footage, but it makes the film even worse. I don't care how shiny it was or looked had it been in CGI, Bully Woody is unlovable, unrelatable, and just unwatchable. To me, the character was more afraid of his future than vengeful, and he made one huge mistake and felt really really bad about it. This seems like he just had a blind hatred of everyone else, and bullied everyone about. Even Lotso and Stinky Pete had some long, deep seated psychological traumas that made them so... well, sick.

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Yup.
Also, one can gather from the story reel that Woody was holding his status as favorite toy over the other toys' heads, and the bed was obviously a status symbol that only he could be on, and poor Slinky was his helpless assistant.

What I think is interesting is that in the final film Woody and Slinky did have a close relationship, but it was a positive, friendly one.

...Not to get too much off topic, but I just have to add that before Pixar was allowed to have two weeks to turn things around, Disney initially wanted Pixar to shut production down, and lay off a lot of people....And apparently there was also talk about Pixar having to story board the film at Disney under their supervision.
Pixar refused to lay people off, and ultimately they got what they asked for, two weeks to turn to the story around.

What I think is so fascinating about this story, is that all of the behind the scenes drama was kept "hush-hush" from the outside world. In 1995, Toy Story came out, and that was that. No one knew of all the drama.

It wasen't until recent years that the "warts and all" story about the film was revealed.

"The Pixar Story" documentary on the special edition WALL-E DVD talks a lot about it, and it is also mentioned on the most recent DVD release of Toy Story.
(I don't mean to advertise them, I just wanted to point out where I got this info.)

Jeffrey Katzenberg's idea of "edge" was for things to be cynical, adult, and have an attitude.
So, thank goodness that Jeffrey Katzenberg is not at Disney Animation anymore, and thank goodness that John Lasseter is chief creative officer at both Pixar and Disney Animation.

Generally speaking, what "edgy" often means is cynical, adult material with attitude. And perhaps even fart jokes and toilet humor.

That is why I am so nervous (and upset) that the studio is requesting the Fraggle script to be edgy.

Fragle Rock was a mystical, magical world, and for the fraggles to be in a movie with "edginess" (even in "Outer Space") would completely tarnish them.

Although I suppose that I shouldn't worry too much, and this rate the film will probably never get made. Which may or may not be a good thing.

But I have to say, I HATED Toy Story 3...and believe me, the main villain(and his creepy giant baby lackey) are very loathsome and unlikeable. Just the whole film, as beautiful and next gen as it looked, rubbed me the wrong way. I may not be too fond of Cars(least the new one looks action filled) but the characters were likeable.

But why does edgy have to mean inappropriate or mean? To me edgy can mean smart, working on dual levels of humor or ideas.

That is why I am so nervous (and upset) that the studio is requesting the Fraggle script to be edgy.

Fragle Rock was a mystical, magical world, and for the fraggles to be in a movie with "edginess" (even in "Outer Space") would completely tarnish them.

Although I suppose that I shouldn't worry too much, and this rate the film will probably never get made. Which may or may not be a good thing.

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Well, I never thought that an out of leftfield bizarre Henson Alternative film would be made *before* the Fraggle film, but I guess that appears to be the case. Strange, that in 2011 we will get two Muppet/Henson films. From the reports, the "Happytime Murder" film is suppose to be way over the line "edgy", but I almost wonder if by "edge"(regarding the FR movie) the Weinstein studio meant simply the Fraggles out in the real world encountering modern day challenges.

Though, I am horrified every time I see trailers for stuff like Chipmunks/Smurfs/etc, so Id rather an FR film not be made if that sort of abhorrent cinema is what the studio was aiming for.

But I have to say, I HATED Toy Story 3...and believe me, the main villain(and his creepy giant baby lackey) are very loathsome and unlikeable. Just the whole film, as beautiful and next gen as it looked, rubbed me the wrong way.

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Being the third film (and very possibly the last) its sort of appropriate for it to be the darkest chapter for the characters. The most epic chapter, if you will.

The movies were created as if all three were part of one big sweeping story. After tackling the themes of toys being replaced, and being outgrown, it only makes sense to have the whole "garbage/incinerator" thing. After all, a toy can always be found if its lost, but the worst possible thing that can happen to a toy is to be thrown out and destroyed. There is nothing after that, and that's a theme that they wanted to tackle in Toy Story 3. In fact, the way they worked things out, many lines of dialogue in Toy Story 2 foreshadowed things that happened in Toy Story 3.

Also, villains are supposed to be unlikable. If you recall, Big Baby was just misguided and was a good guy at the end. (and his design was inspired by baby dolls that are often found at real day cares. They are "naked" have been drawn on, and seem to tower over the other toys by comparison)
As for Lotso, he had a lot of issues, and there is no rule that says every villain has to redeem themselves. That's what makes movies exciting, when things happen that the audience does not expect.

By design, Toy Story 3 was the darkest chapter, and being the last film, it is fitting. The important thing is that there was a happy ending.

That is ALL I am going to say about Toy Story 3. I do not want this thread to derail, and there is nothing more that I can say about it anyway. I do not wish to get into an endless debate on the subject.

......Basically, I have to be honest; I have little faith in the Fraggle Rock movie at this point.
Yes, it would be awesome if there was a movie, but only if care is given to the script (no studio meddling) and it stays true to the series.