Yesterday, a coffee shop called The DoubleShot in Tulsa, OK sent out a tweet announcing that breastfeeding was now banned on the premises: “Notice: No breastfeeding at the DoubleShot. Thank you.” (The tweet has since been removed, but a tipster saved it for us.) This set off a torrent of angry reactions on Twitter, partly because everyone loves to fight about breastfeeding and partly because it’s World Breastfeeding Week.

Some of the people angry about this were concerned for their individual rights and the right of their baby to eat. It is as if I had tried to pass a law banning the practice of breastfeeding universally. The fact is, these people aren’t concerned with individual rights. They are concerned with THEIR rights. They would not fight for my right to ban breastfeeding in my establishment if I chose to do so. I don’t mind if people breastfeed in the DoubleShot, but it’s funny to me that people don’t consider the rights of others; only their own. If one really believes in the American dream of individual rights, they must believe in the rights of others to do or think or say things they don’t agree with. My capitalist ideals tell me that business owners should be able to make their own rules and individuals should then decide if they want to support that business or not. As it is, the over-regulation of our government seems to step in and tell us everything that we can and can’t do. I agree with the rights of people to boycott businesses they dislike, though in this case, people are mislead. We allow breastfeeding and women do breastfeed when they want.

Comments

Edit Your Comment

i know it’s the unpopular opinion, but if a small business, especially an eating establishment, wants to ban breastfeeding they should be able to. it’s not like a breastfeeding mother should be drinking coffee anyhow.

If they’re allowed to ban breastfeeding, the next thing you know, they’ll be banning breasts. Then it’s just a short philosophical jump to banning women entirely, and my friend, a sausage-packed coffee shop is no fun at all.

Maybe the Double Shot owner can get together with the owner of Raleigh’s “Just Crumb” cupcake bakery (you know…the one that hates fat people and calls their customers foul four-letter words). They can have a little “we hate everyone” party. Sorry, this guy is a d-bag.

Most do. And get refills. I’ve seen pregnant women suck down cup after cup of caffeinated coffee. Not that I care if they have brain-damaged children except I’m paying far more than my fair share of taxes to educate their little runts.

Nah, we shouldn’t expect breeders-feeders to actually take some responsibility for the health and nourishment of their own children (that all of us pay to educate and subsidize with our taxes). That’d be too much like telling them what to do. We know all mothers are doing a perfect job feeding and nourishing not only themselves since only 65% of women are overweight/obese and we KNOW they’re doing a great job of raising the fattest, laziest generation in American history.

Yup. They’re not doing themselves or their children any harm. Not at all.

A drug is a substance or component of substance that is intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease or EXCEPT FOR FOOD, intended to affect the structure or function of the body. “Drug” also does not include a device. Sugar is a food.

so, while pregnant, women should also not handle paper receipts http://con.st/10009600 , sit near walls http://con.st/10007172 , drink tap water, breathe within a few hundred miles of any industrial area, etc?
there’s no way that i know of to avoid ALL the potential toxins in the modern world

So you are stating a correlation between women who breastfeed and drink coffee and obesity? That’s a stretch. Some breastfeeding mothers who drink a small cup of coffee a day, also eat all organic, and are a size 6. Remove head from sphincter, then comment.

Here’s a crazy idea, breastfeed your kid out in your car before you enter the public coffee shop. Why is breastfeeding in public any more acceptable than urinating in public? They’re both natural bodily functions that nobody else really wants to watch you do.

Breastfeeding doesn’t spread fecal matter. Fecal matter is host to all sorts of bad diseases, especially if left unchecked. Breastmilk, on the other hand, is host to vitamins, minerals, and all sorts of disease-fighting wonder-juices.

Your analogy, while I understand the purpose, is not a valid comparison.

You do realize that you’re comparing waste removal with feeding, right? I mean, you don’t eat feces and urine (at least you shouldn’t). A woman is trying to feed her child; any reasonable person could see how that’s different from urinating or defecating.

Breathing is also a “natural bodily function,” you know — just think of the disgusting pathogens and other aerial bits of mucus and disease that are spread every time you expel gas from your lungs. Disgusting! Why can’t people just hold their breath when they go inside a store?

Don’t pretty much all cars come with air conditioners by now? I’m just saying that there has to be a more appropriate place to do this than at a public restaurant where you’ll be in view of people that really don’t need to see this.

I agree. In this case, of course he was free to ban it because apparently, there is no law saying that women can breast feed anywhere. But it seems to me that he is pissed off that people reacted. I don’t think anyone would deny that he has the right to ban this in his place of business in this case. But, he doesn’t have the right to ban how people react. People have a right to get angry and express that anger publicly. He is just a big fat wuss who can dish it out but can’t take it.

The law says women have a right to breastfeed where ever they have a right to be.

How does that work with private property? I think the law is to keep women from getting arrested for breastfeeding in public. I think the rules of private property are different. The shop owner doesn’t have the power to arrest the breast feeding women, but he has the right to ask them to leave and to not serve them.

A coffee shop is not private property. It is a public business open to the public. If he had a sign on the door that said “members only” he might be able to ban breast feeding then but he can’t trespass her for breastfeeding alone and no other reason.

Breastfeeding is something that at any one time, you are choosing to do. Being black, jewish, or gay is what you are all the time – I won’t even respond to that last one.

If you can’t see the difference in telling people not to do something in your establishment, and telling people they can’t enter based on who they are, then there is no argument on earth that will possibly reach you.

I agree with you – it’s a private business and they can make up rules that they want (within reason). Products @ a coffee shop are not essential and if this policy offends you, vote with your wallet rather than rant and complain about it.

Unless there’s a local law that specifically forces all business owners to allow breastfeeding on the premises, he’s well within his rights to ban it at his business. Mothers who find it offensive can have coffee elsewhere. Nursing mothers shouldn’t be consuming too much caffeine anyway.

You can’t stay at home to feed your critter or pump and bottle-feed, so I have to look at your funbags…and if I don’t like it, *I* am the one with issues.

How about I parade around in front of you and your children with no clothes on? We’ll see who has body issues then. Cos women who whip out titties in public are showing said titties to people of ALL ages. Just saying.

Do you have any experience with breastfeeding and pumping? Pumped milk, when unrefrigerated, has a limited window of use. As a dad, I carried pumped milk when I was going out with my son by myself. I had to make sure I had enough milk to satisfy his hunger, without taking too much. Then there’s the issue of getting the milk to an agreeable temperature. These things are certainly manageable, but nowhere near as easy as breastfeeding.

When my wife started breastfeeding, she took extra care to be discreet. My son wasn’t a big fan of nursing under a cover. In my experience, there’s very little to see when a child is latched onto the nipple. It’s also not difficult to cover up when the kiddo is done. Suggesting women should be banished to the bathroom or a hot car (also public, by the way) is silly.

I see lots of things in public that I might rather not. That’s just a part of life. If nursing in public bothers you, simply avert your gaze.

Very well stated. As a father, I don’t see what the big deal is about public breast feeding. When my son is hungry and my wife is near, he gets to eat. There’s nothing gross about it. Most women are very discreet about the process.

Dealing with bottles is not nearly as easy as one would think. To store breast milk for any amount of time, it must be frozen at about 0F. You have to plan when you might need the milk and plan to defrost it. You can’t just zap it in the microwave as that can quickly make it too hot to drink among other things.

Finally, as mentioned already, women who breast feed don’t just stop lactating. So you can either see them feed their child or operate a pump. Personally, I’d rather see them feeding their child.

Also as a father I don’t understand why everyone keeps treating this as an either-or. It is not a discrete choice between public breastfeeding/pumping or child goes hungry/woman experiences discomfort. There are a multitude of ways to accomplish breastfeeding/pumping that don’t involve making others uncomfortable (regardless of selfish desires to have others change their ways).

My wife breast fed all three of our children and seemed to have no trouble balancing our child’s needs, her needs, and the needs/desires of others.

I’m sorry you have no problem with people leaking potentially disease-ridden bodily fluids in a dining establishment. But hey, if you want to hang around puddles of HIV or Hepatitis infested baby juice, I guess that’s your prerogative.

Except he’s right, Breastmilk is a transmitter of HIV the same as other bodily fluids. There’s a reason that the Drs of HIV positive mothers insist that they NEVER breastfeed. Hate the message but don’t hate on the facts.

I don’t see it as discrimination. I don’t want to look at crusty boobs dribbling milk when I’m out in public. When I do see it in public (which is rare, because most women are sensible enough to cover themselves appropriately), I usually turn around and leave immediately. I don’t confront the breeder-feeder.

To me, whipping out a crusty dribbling tit and leaving it to dangle where everyone can see it is maybe a half step above dropping trou and taking a steaming shit on the floor. It’s revolting. Nobody wants to see your tits.

So for all the people in this thread horrified about the possibility of seeing a breast, what if the states that had laws permitting breastfeeding modified the laws to include: “The mother shall use a drape or covering to prevent the viewing of the breast during feeding”

I know it’s been said, but you have really sad opinions about breastfeeding and the human body in general. Have you ever seen a woman breastfeed? It’s very easy to cover the “funbags” and still feed the baby. You are an immature manchild.

It’s easy to cover them — and yet some women don’t even bother to try.
Hence, the problem where some people assume any breastfeeding mother is about to flash them, and other people assume anyone who hesitates to join the La Leche League is a misogynist child-hating perv.

Are you turned on by seeing a womans tits that much? What if the owner said, I don’t like the way black people look in my coffee shop. They disgust my clientele on MY PROPERTY. What if I said, I don’t think woman should be allowed to work at my coffee shop because women are too stupid to make good coffee. How about if I said, no Jews allowed in my place because they are not going to heaven.
The whole private property rights thing is bullshit. You do not get to set rules that are illegal. I do not know OK law, but most states protect breast feeding an infant. The only way you can consider it offensive is if you are willing to say it is sexual in nature. If you think that, you are the sick perv who should not be served.

I own a lovely set of my own, so no, it’s not a matter of being turned on by seeing boobs. It’s a matter of a) not wanting to have to see other people expelling bodily fluids and b) not wanting people in public shirtless.

If a woman can be semi-covered up while breastfeeding, go right ahead. (Most women have no problem with this.) If she needs to have her entire breast hanging out while she spends five minutes arranging Junior (and yes, it’s rare, but I have seen this happen) then I think she should have the common courtesy to move somewhere less open to the viewing public.

You are right, but people also have a right to react and be pissed about it. If it were really that important to him, he would have stuck to his guns. As soon as he realized it would affect his bottom line, he wussed out.

Like you said, if people don’t like it, they don’t have to go there. It didn’t take him long to figure out that people were obviously going to stop going there, so he changed his mind.

There is no local law that does so, but would you accept an Oklahoma STATE law? The coffee shop owner doesn’t have a right to ban something that is protected by state law. The only legal way he could do so, under the state law, would be to ban all customers from entry, which would probably be bad for his business.

I think a better deterrent is a sign that says “All breastfeeders will be stared at and possibly have their photo taken by people on their cellphones. Management takes no responsibility for the behavior of our customers in this public place as long as it falls within the law. The same right you have to breastfeed is the same right all photographers have to take pictures nearly everywhere. Thank you.”

I think he’s on to something here. Since the law forbids us from banning or interfering with some 300 pound fatass hauling her ugly tits out to feed her obese 2 year old while stuffing pancakes down her throat (as seen on my last trip to IHOP), I think the answer is for us to make it very obvious we’re staring, gawking, taking pictures, and filming video with a few choruses of “hey, this is gonna be awesome on YouTube”.

Haters are going to hate. You know, as Abe Lincoln once said “You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you will never..Hey, who are you? Sic semper Tyrannis? WTF does that mean…”

I have not seen it stated anywhere that the government came in and made him allow breastfeeding. What happened was he made a policy and consumers spoke against it. He could have easily decided to continue the policy, but decided it was bad business to do so.

This is how capitalism should work. If a goods or service provider makes you unhappy, go elsewhere, and tell others to do the same. Then either the provider decides it is not an impact to his/her business and continues the policy, or the he/she decided they would rather not lose that portion of the market and they change the policy.

Think how different most of the companies we read about on consumerist would act if they did not have government bailouts or near monopolies to allow them to continue disgraceful policies. How much better would the life of consumers be if businesses actually had to make decisions based on serving the customers they are supposed to depend on, instead of seeing them as a hinderence to profits.

I am not so sure. Do you have a right to be in a store? Are all businesses considered public property now? I get that we have the right to be on public property, but where does public property end and private property begin?

All of those are morally repugnant but should be perfectly legal in a free society.

In fact, I’d prefer it if said bigots weren’t legally barred from baring their stupidity openly, that way I’d know who to patronize and who not to. As it stands now, I basically have no way of knowing who’s a repugnant, bigoted dumbass and who’s not…..

Many boy scouts troops throughout the country are sponsored by the Mormon church. …But let’s not get started on that now. We have days worth of arguing back and forth whether or not it’s it’s gross to feed babies from your boobs. And whether you can justify your hatred of boobs and babies because you’re a woman.

Boy Scouts have been deemed to be a private club (rather than a public accommodation). Private clubs can discriminate all they want (see the KKK). Public Accommodations have to follow state and federal rules.

So by your logic, he can say “screw it” to public health things, he can ban Consumerist posters, blacks, Asians, Jews, pasty white Pagans like me. And if he’s in a state where it’s legal, he has a whole new set of issues.

My wife breastfed as did most women I know. And ALL of them covered the breast and the baby while doing it.

Exactly! And people that disagree with the business’ decision have the right to spread the word to other potential customers – and whoever else they want. If the business capitulates because of negative comments and/or lost business, isn’t that their problem?

You actually think there were lobbying groups lobbying congress for the right of breastfeeding moms to breastfeed anyplace?

What planet do you live on?

This law is an example of one of the times our laws make total sense. Pediatrition groups issued statements about the IMMENSE benefits of breastfeeding (they didn’t lobby anyone) and finally the government got something right.

Actually yes, there are lobbying groups for breastfeeding that have successfully gotten laws passed in 40+ states giving breastfeeding women complete authority to do anything they want, whenever and wherever they want, regardless of how rude, obnoxious, or offensive they are. The laws in virtually every state is worded EXACTLY THE SAME. Coincidence? I think not.

“Actually yes, there are lobbying groups for breastfeeding that have successfully gotten laws passed in 40+ states giving breastfeeding women complete authority to do anything they want, whenever and wherever they want, regardless of how rude, obnoxious, or offensive they are. The laws in virtually every state is worded EXACTLY THE SAME. Coincidence? I think not.”

Wow, ANYTHING?! Oh, the power that breastfeeding mothers wield is immense!

Well, lessee. They are allowed to breast feed pretty much anywhere they choose, including private business establishments. They cannot be asked to move, leave, or be more discrete, because this constitutes “interfering”, which is expressly forbidden. They cannot be charged with indecent exposure for showing their breasts, even if they are flaunting them.

Since no one is permitted to interfere with the feeding of their little parasites, they have carte blanche to behave in any manner they chose, virtually anywhere they choose, with complete autonomy. Yeah, I’d say that’s an immense amount of power bestowed upon hormonally-challenged women. Probably not the smartest of ideas. But what politician is going to say no to breastfeeding women? Not any that ever want to be re-elected.

Bottom line is this — if a woman decides to enter a restaurant and make a spectacle of herself while feeding her child there isn’t a rat’s ass anyone can do about it. If you’re trying to eat a meal you’ve paid for with your hard-earned money, well tough shit, your only option is to end your meal early and leave. Say or do anything towards the woman to express your frustration and you can be arrested.

And I doubt the state is going to compensate shop owners who lose business from people who get up and leave in disgust. Or for those that refuse to come back because of a single woman who insists on breastfeeding in the same restaurant over and over again. Did I mention there isn’t a damned thing anyone can do about it?

I can just imagine a rant 40 years ago from some southern gentleman “how do they expect me to keep my sandwich down when niggers come and sit at the lunch counter like that”
You remind me of the nutjobs who are offended by anybody at all eating in public at all.
for example:
“” Worst of all from this point of view are those more uncivilized forms of eating, like licking an ice cream cone –a catlike activity that has been made acceptable in informal America but that still offends those who know eating in public is offensive. “”
Kass, Leon: The Hungry Soul at 148-149. (University of Chicago Press, 1994, 1999)

Second, what rights of others are breast-feeding mothers denying? The rights of others to have the world visually conform to their desires? “Ohhh, I am unable to avert my eyes from a woman with a baby under a blanket, nursing, therefore, it is my right to demand this activity is banished.”

Well if people should be able to control what they see in public, can we please ban capri pants on men, and spandex on everyone?

If you choose to to wear spandex, you are ignoring MY RIGHT to not have to view your spandex-clad ass, because I cannot be expected to simply avert my eyes from something I find unpleasant.

There was a post on the Comsumerist a while back about a photographer taking pictures in a store (can’t remember if it was a coffee shop). He claimed he had the right to take pictures of people there because it was a public place, but the shopping center owners wanted to ban him from the premises.

I seem to remember that the decision of the town was that outside was a public place, but inside was not, and therefore he could be banned from the store (a private place of the business owner).

I’m wondering if that would apply here. The business might be a private place, so the owner could ask breastfeeding women to leave. If he asks them to leave, they no longer have the right to be there.

I’m obviously not positive about this, and I’m not trying to b obnoxious (honest!). I don’t even think that the business owner *should* be doing this. It’s just that I don’t think the law forces him to do anything here.

Absent the law in Oklahoma, yes, he could ask anyone breastfeeding to leave, but the law says she can breastfeed anywhere she is legally. If a state passed a law allowing photography anywhere, then the retailer couldn’t stop the photographer from taking pictures inside the store.

My question is a bit different though: if the owner asks the mother/photographer to leave, does that mean they no longer have the right to be in said establishment? If so, I think that means they don’t have the right to breastfeed/photograph anymore. Is that clear (honest question)?

I think that the owner would have such right because his store is private property. I’m not positive, of course, because IANAL

(2004) Mothers have the right to breastfeed anywhere they have a right to be, and shall be excused from jury duty upon request.
HB 2102

(2006) Breastfeeding mothers may use unpaid break and meal times to breastfeed or express breast milk at work. Employers are urged to provide a private area (other than a toilet stall) for this purpose.
HB 2358

I see what it says, but read the FAQs below it. It says that mothers can complain about being forced out of public places.

It is completely legal for a business owner to refuse to serve someone and ask that they leave for almost any reason. If a business owner asks a breastfeeding woman to leave, she no longer has the right to be in his shop. I am unsure whether this law classifies breastfeeding women as a “protected class” (similar to race or gender) that cannot be discriminated against.

I do not support the business owner, for the record. I am unsure, however, that there is any law against what he’s doing. I don’t know if this law can really apply to a private business because of what I said above.

The problem is when the mothers in question decide to NOT use a blanket. Trust me, I’ve seen this MANY times. A woman will open her top COMPLETELY, whip out both barrels, and start screaming “Don’t stare at my breasts, I’m feeding my baby, and it’s perfectly natural!” to anyone who even GLANCES her way.

I know not ALL mothers are this way, but whenever I’m in a restaurant/store/theater/etc with a breastfeeding mother, it seems like it’s always an exhibitionist.

I just turned away, but someone would only see something if they were right up on me looking. No one ever complained or even looked twice, but clearly it’s not something you see every day here (since I never saw it). Maybe people here don’t know what breastfeeding is, ha ha.

Where do you people live where this happens? I have been on the planet for several decades and have NEVER seen anything like this. And I go out a lot, sometime to bars and restaurants that specifically cater to people with small children.

I think the “OMG, she’s whipping them out in front of everyone” and the “EW, your breastmilk is giving me AIDS” are complete hyperbolic nonsense. The problem is, these are the best arguments the anti-breastmilk camp can come up with, which really sheds light on the soundness of their position.

I’ve actually excused myself from someone’s home when the mother of the house decided to whip it out and breastfeed in the living room. She could just as easily have removed herself to the bedroom. Is modesty old fashioned now?

I think his point was that people who are very supportive of individual rights only actually care about their own rights – his point was that the same people who are gung ho about equality, free speech, individual rights, etc. would never defend his individual rights just because they don’t agree with him.

I don’t think he ever really meant to put a ban like that in place, but I think he was trying to do it to prove his point – that when it comes to defending the rights of ALL people, people will only go so far as to defend their own.

With any conflict a choice must be made. For example, he cannot choose his own sanitation rules. His ‘right’ to run his private business the way he sees fit it modified by some laws and regulations imposed on him.

When the breast feeding law was enacted, clearly the OK legislature felt that the infant’s right to be fed trumped the rights of private business to prohibit the activity.

And it’s naive to think that people only support rights that support their own self-interests. Many people support the ending of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, yet are not gay. Many people oppose the new Arizona illegal alien laws, even though they are not Hispanic or illegal aliens. Look at the tea-party types that are against health care reform, even though it does help their own self interests!

Does anyone seriously expect a mother to put the interests of a for-profit business ahead of the interests of her own child?

Call me old fashioned, but isn’t it the right of the business to decide who can and cannot come onto their property? I always saw signs about a store having the right to refuse service to anyone (which will allow them to remove people for loitering).

My point being, if you do not like it, you can simply move on.

Like I say… Just as non-smokers have rights over smokers, non-breastfeeding people have rights over breastfeeding people. Both of them make personal choices, not at all like people who are black or (debatably) gay.

Along those same lines, I will ask people to avert their noses when I smoke. If someone owns a store, they should have a right to decide what is and is not appropriate for their business. I am not telling people what the law is, only what it should be. People have the right to decide who comes onto their property and does what! When I lived with my father, I lived under his rules or I got out. Simple as that and I could not argue. I made the choice to stay and live by the rules as any responsible adult would.

These ladies do not seem to understand that concept, they are much like children not following what their mother or father tells them not to do.

Ok, I dont want to serve Catholics, Jews and Muslims. Religion is CLEARLY a choice. You have control over it. So should a business be allowed to make rules against serving them> If I put up a sign saying no christians allowed, this same asshole owner would be up in arms crying to the ACLU and Pat Robertson, and rightfully so.
Once you open up a business as a place of public accomadation you AGREE to the laws the state set forth. Your logic would allow me to make crystal meth and sell it in MY business since it is my property.

When you are open to the public, you are considered a “public accommodation” and not strictly a private entity. As such, your property is subject to all sorts of federal and state laws that wouldn’t be in effect if you were truly private.

as a smoking female who doesn’t like children … i still see a flaw in your logic. smoking isn’t a process by which our species has survived for unknown millennia. bottle feeding is a pretty new concept, historically speaking. feeding babies when they need to be fed is pretty much how humans continue to exist. it may be a personal choice, but if people quit choosing to have babies and feed them [and breastfeeding is pretty much accepted as a healthy way to do that for many mothers] then we kind of quit existing eventually.
i don’t like kids, especially babies. but in terms of evolutionary process, breastfeeding mothers and their babies are more important than i am.

Well-said, mostly, but your last sentence is what is known as a “false dilemma”. It is not either-or. My wife breast-fed all three of our children and often chose to exit somewhere we were or change our plans to minimize feeding in public. The needs of the baby may be met in a multitude of ways that can also take other’s needs and desires into account.

Thanks. The owner’s comment deeply irked me. He’s painting with far too broad a brush. I advocate all kinds of rights that I don’t have any interest in actually using — public lactation, gay marriage, gun rights, drug legalization, and abortion, for starters. And I know lots of other middle-income straight sober folks who do the same.

Why do I suspect that while this guy complains about people only sticking up for themselves, he thinks people who DO speak up for others he disagrees with — for example, any childless people who complained about his policy — should mind their own business?

I agree with you, but at the same time I wanted to let you know that all women don’t do it under a blanket/with a specialty outfit. I was at Grilled Cheese and Company and saw a (its relevant) very large woman literally pull down one side of her tank top and plop out what I assume was just a single breast to feed a small child (I would say over a year old).

Also, I wish coffee shops banned everyone under the age of about 10. Im tired of almost tripping over little runners and risking the massive lawsuit that would come from spilling anything on them.

Some kids just refuse to feed under a blanket. I’ve taken to feeding my kiddo in the car because she’s been trying to yank the cover off and as much as I’m all for nursing in public, I try not to flash those with delicate sensibilities.

My son too! I was very grateful that he started solid foods right at the beginning of summer. (We live in AZ.) I always had to plan far in advance to make sure I had enough bottles to make it through whatever trip we were on. I managed to only have to breastfeed in public a few times, but I felt really weird whenever I’ve had to.

I have to admit that I’m on both sides of the issue. I attempt to cover up, but I think that’s a modesty issue for me. I’ve only breastfed in front of a small group of my female relatives, my husband, and one accidental male friend. I don’t want others to see my breasts, and I don’t really want to see anyone elses. In our society breasts are multifunctional, and I think it’s the sexy definition of them that makes everyone so uncomfortable on this issue.

They’re called “private property rights.” You should look them up some time. There’s a very good argument to be made that sound property rights are the fundamental basis for all of our rights, but that’s probably something people here don’t want to hear.

Sanitation regulations do not fall under the same legal and philosophical basis as something like deciding to allow breastfeeding or not. Its a fundamental legal precept that you’re not allowed to knowingly endanger someone else, up to and including unsanitary conditions in a food service establishment. No one is endangered from a breastfeeding ban because the kid is not going to starve in the time they’re in the place and even if they were, there’s a whole wide world out there, that’s NOT the private establishment where an individual can do pretty much whatever they want.

The kid is not going to starve in the time they’re in the store, but it is going to cry. I can turn my eyes away from a breastfeeding mother if I choose. I cannot turn my ears off from her shrill crying baby. Please please stick a nipple in the cryhole, moms.

also please ban tube tops, whale tails and tramp stamps since i have no desire to ever see these things again.
heck, it all comes down to the eye of the beholder again, right? i hate looking at my neighbor’s perfectly manicured lawn and shaped topiary trees and he hates looking at my wildflower collection and unmanicured crepe myrtles. we used to argue about it, now we just each keep the blinds down on that side of our respective houses.
if we got rid of all the things in the world that are potentially offensive to look at we’d all be shut in our houses all day long because everything and everyone is potentially offensive to someone somewhere.

I actually get so sick to my stomach if I smell breastmilk that I have to leave the room. I don’t know what it is. I get a little bit sick when I smell formula, too, but not nearly as bad; I am not looking forward to having children for this reason alone. I actually had to leave Noodels & Company the other day because a woman in the booth right behind me started breastfeeding, and I couldn’t even see her until I got up to get a box for my food. But, I know I’m a very rare circumstance and think that if women are taking reasonable measures to keep themselves covered up, it’s not a big deal.

All people who make it their business to tell me their business are “militant.” I shouldn’t know how or what your infant child eats. It’s no one’s concern except the kid and the mother – except of course when militant types make it a point to make it everyone’s concern. I’m of the firm belief that 99% of the mothers who breastfeed in public are doing it simply because they want to flex their “rights” and not because they have a hungry kid.

You get me wrong. I’m not against it. On many, many other threads of this exact same topic, I’ve learned some pretty interesting facts about breastfeeding. I have no problem with mothers discreetly breastfeeding their child. I do have a problem with mothers doing it in a showy, flamboyant way just to show the world that they *can* do it.

Follow me on this:

I’m 100% pro-gun, yet I don’t support open carry. You have a gun? Good for you. Put it away.

I’m 100% gay rights, yet think the Gay Pride parade is ridiculous. You’re gay? Congratulations. Put the assless chaps back in the drawer and shut up about it.

You want to breastfeed your kid in public? Excellent. Be discreet, though.

There are certain things that every person has the right to do, but they don’t need to make a public spectacle out of exercising those rights. And don’t tell me you’re doing it for “awareness.” We’re aware, thank you.

well put. i think you’ll find that 95% of breastfeeding mothers are very discreet. i don’t know about where you live, but i only see a breastfeeding mother out in public every year or two b/c most of them are discreet. they don’t want some pervert staring at their boob any more than you want to see it. i’m not calling you a pervert, but i’m sure breastfeeding in public would bring them out of the woodwork.

I’m not against breastfeeding in any way, I don’t think it’s disgusting or offensive and I honestly wouldn’t think twice if I saw someone doing it in public. However, I DO think it is the right of a business owner to request that it not be done in his/her store. We’re talking a small coffee shop that you’re likely less than 100 feet from your car. It’s not a huge inconvenience to ask that you feed the baby in your car before you come in or after you leave. Maybe I could see this argument if you were talking a mall where you could be 20+ minutes from a more private place, but even then…it’s 20 minutes…yes, the child will likely whine and cry as you are making your way out, but he/she is not going to die if they don’t eat for 20 minutes.

This whole idea that if your baby needs to eat, you need to have him eating in under 30 seconds (note: slight exaggeration, obviously) like some other comments are suggesting seems to the high extreme.

If you’re shopping and ignoring the crying I would agree. However, if you’re in the through-ways of the mall obviously on your way somewhere: 1) The same people are probably not forced to listen to the noise for very long, and 2) People are generally understanding if they see you’re headed somewhere because they assume you are dealing with it.

Plus, as this becomes generally more accepted (much like bathroom changing stations — agree the two aren’t equal, but I’m using it as an example), I would think the best way to deal with appeasing both sides would be to have a designated spot solely for this purpose.

I’m sorry, I just can’t buy the argument that a shop owner banning breastfeeding is THAT much of an inconvenience that it would inspire anger/revenge.

Agreed 1000%. There are plenty of places that will acquiesce to the demands of those with children, so let them go patronize those businesses. It might not be legal for the coffee shop owner to prevent breastfeeding inside his establishment, but it’s well within his rights to deny entry to anyone with small children.

Although I am fine with BF in public, I have to agree that establishments that prohibit small children would get my business. There is nothing worse that going to a coffee shop with DH to read and hang out only to have a crying baby or some business man dad who won’t control his child b/c he is too busy with his Blackberry. Ditto for restaurants. We usually go to nicer places kid-free later for peaceful evening, and inevitably there is a table full of parents camping out while their precious kids run around the restaurant screaming and the mom is walking her crying baby around back and fourth near our table.

You can do whatever you want with your “business” provided you don’t actually invite the public in. Private property rights go away as soon as you make your private property a public place. It is not your “right” to open a business and then prohibit breastfeeding or black customers any more than it is your “right” to serve spoiled milk and cream with the coffee.

If you don’t invite the public in, who do you invite in? Could you say the same thing about your house? So long as you don’t invite anyone from the outside in, you can set up any rules you like?

Haven’t you ever seen on business doors – No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service? That’s a business setting up rules for access to their establishment. That is no different than a business saying we will not serve X people, or we will not allow X behavior within our walls.

There is a HUGE difference between a public accommodation (like a restaurant, store, or hotel) and truly private property.

At my home (private property), I can discriminate as much as I want. So can the KKK or the Boy Scouts or many private golf clubs. They are all private organizations and they can discriminate against who they want.

Once I invite the general public in, though, I am subject to all sorts of regulations that I wouldn’t be normally subject to. That includes health regulations and federal non-discrimination regulations.

Any business setting up rules about access to their establishment can set up whatever rules they would like…as long as they don’t conflict with those other regulations.

I don’t see a distinction between the 2. Either I own the property or I don’t. If I own the business and I own the property, I should be able to operate it however I want, assuming I don’t infringe on anyone else’s freedoms. The same goes for my house.

“The Legislature hereby declares that breast-feeding a baby constitutes a basic act of nurturing to which every baby has a right and which should be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health. In furtherance of this right, a mother may breast-feed her baby in any location where the mother is otherwise authorized to be. Breast-feeding shall not constitute a violation of any provision of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes.”

Here is the problem with EVERYONE quoting this law “..in any location where the mother is otherwise authorized to be..” — if a private business owner asks her to leave, because her breast-feeding is honestly causing people to leave and him suffer loss, he should legally be allowed to do so.

And, as such, she is legally allowed to sue his ass for it.
America, love it or leave it….

But if it was the breastfeeding that caused her to not legally be allowed there, then the law is broken. You are talking in circles. There has to be ANOTHER and VALID reason to kick her out, the nurturing of a child cannot be that reason.

If she came in spent money she has EVERY right to be there. The stupidity of this man, is he tweeted something that is ILLEGAL. There was not a specific incident. He made a blanket statement that he was going to break the law. Every woman in the state who is breastfeeding should go there and breast feed all day after purchasing small coffee.

He sure could! …if he wants to lose tons of customers. Not just the ones with young children but ones with older children, and people who don’t yet have children, and grandparents, and feminists, and people who are just outraged in general about discrimination of any kind.

Sure people would still come, and sure if people boycotted they’d be blowing it out of proportion but it’d still be a big hassle for him and proof that he was just trying to get around a state law that prohibits discriminating against breastfeeding.

“As it is, the over-regulation of our government seems to step in and tell us everything that we can and can’t do.”

I bet he has to let the cripples in too. Nothing kills a good coffee buzz like having stare at a bunch of cripples. Should they be drinking coffee in the first place? Cripples and boobies have no place in a coffee house.

Wait, if the state law says “a mother may breast-feed her baby in any location where the mother is otherwise authorized to be,” then doesn’t the small business owner have to comply with that law? If she’s a paying customer, then she can be in the coffeeshop, wouldn’t that count.

I’m not a parent and have no personal stake in breastfeeding. I honestly don’t care, although frankly the idea of a woman feeding a baby in a toilet stall seems worse to me than the fact that I might glimpse a bit of someone’s breast. In this case, I just don’t see where it’s an opt-out situation. Most laws don’t work that way.

But according to his ban, she would not be authorized to be there while breastfeeding. I personally don’t have a problem with breastfeeding in public. The thing that gets me is that the owner is trying to put this back on the government as if they had something to do with it.

I agree with what others have said. Keep the ban, see how your business does. That’s the capitalistic way.

Oh, here is an idea. He can ban black or Mexican people from entering the shop, cause, you know, it may be offensive for some people. It is his right as a business establishment to serve the people he chooses to serve. If this is his American dream to be surrounded by only white people, then he has the right to pursue it. And while we are on the topic, his capitalist ideals may tell him that openly gay people are offensive as well. So, let’s ban them all… jews, commies… let’s party like it is 1959….

On a side note, I’ve noticed people commenting that it might actually be better if you could though, since then your convictions would be intact and people who believe you are a bigot would take their business elsewhere.

I’m a mom with 6 kids. I drink coffee. I breastfed all of them till one year.

Still…I get creeped out with the ladies who breastfeed with virtually NO covering up. I don’t want to see that either.
It can be done very very discreetly, easily enough by covering your infant with a lightweight blanket. If someone covers up, then I don’t have a problem with it. My rule of thumb was, if you can’t cover, then you should go somewhere private. I always did that… I didn’t want people looking at me, and its just a little bit of respect for others around you as well..

This is true. If I have to go places I tried to feed the child ahead of time to avoid the whole breastfeeding in public thing. Or do it in a car in between errands. But sometimes kids get hungry, sometimes things take longer…whatever. If the circumstance came about where I had to do it, I kept a blanket with me. The eat-while-under-blanket scenario was occasional, so I didn’t feel to bad about it. I preferred discreetness for myself and those around me.

There is no reason for a woman to cover her baby while she breastfeeds. MAYBE, if she’s sitting directly across from a stranger, just a few feet apart, MAYBE, then she might wat to at least try to cover the baby. Otherwise – just don’t look! It’s very easy to not look at something that you know is there and that you know bothers you.

Not every baby will tolerate the cover-up. Mini-me started tearing it off at 4 months. Granted, I now feed in the car or someplace private to be polite, but it would be a problem if I got caught off guard someplace.

Unless a woman is breastfeeding directly in front of you I see no reason why a person can’t just not look at her breasts while she breastfeeds her baby.

More women would breastfeed, and breastfeed longer, if it were more acceptable in public, and they weren’t expected to hide the breastfeeding from every little glance of people nearby.

And the more women who breastfeed, the better off more babies will be.

I’m out and about in public a lot and I’ve never seen a woman just “whip it out” (to quote some poster here). But there is no reason why the baby should have to be covered with a light blanket, or anything else.

I wish more women would breastfeed in public, then (the stupid members of) the public will eventually get used to it.

My son was happy to nurse under a blanket, as long as he could get his ‘supply’. My daughter, on the other hand, couldn’t stand anything over her head. I would have to get her in position, but far enough away to undo what needed undoing (discreetly as possible), then hold the cover up with one hand while pulling her to me to nurse. She would keep her eyes on the blanket the whole time I held it up, waiting to see if it would come down. If I tried to get her under cover she would immediately grasp said cover and whip it off. Once attached I would lower the blanket and be sure I was as covered as possible.

My hubby has said it was a good thing we stopped at two, or I might have ‘whipped it out’ for the third one, not caring about modesty at all. He was joking, of course, but was correct in a way. I had no compunction about feeding my children when it was needed. That said, no one ever saw my nipple, and any small swell of breast that showed between their head and my shirt was less than can be seen in a lot of regular shirts, even then.

I breastfed for a year til last month. I never used a cover because it just made everything more difficult. (And it never workedâ€”you try covering up a hungry, angry baby.) I breastfed in public many times. Believe it or not, I DON’T WANT PEOPLE SEEING MY BOOBS. I breastfed in public because my son got hungry in public. I turned away while pulling my boob out, I usually found a quiet spot to the side of the location, and unless someone was watching over my shoulder, no one ever saw anything. I never bothered anyone and no one bothered me.

So… How is that so offensive to your delicate eyes and sensibilities???

I agree with the notion of private property rights, including the right to run a business in a way that you see fit, except where it violates the law. In this case, it would appear to violate the law, and so it’s an unjust law that needs to be addressed, or a constitutional issue (state, maybe federal) that would need to be raised through that state’s court system.

I guess I’ve never seen anyone whip out boobs in front of everyone to nurse. The only times I’ve ever seen it, it was very discreet and I almost didn’t even notice. Not that I care; it’s just a baby having lunch. No “fluids” are going anywhere but in the baby’s mouth / maybe a little on mom’s shirt.

(2004) Mothers have the right to breastfeed anywhere they have a right to be, and shall be excused from jury duty upon request.
HB 2102

(2006) Breastfeeding mothers may use unpaid break and meal times to breastfeed or express breast milk at work. Employers are urged to provide a private area (other than a toilet stall) for this purpose.
HB 2358

Unless there’s a law against it, he has a right to make a stink about it and ban it. However, people also have the right to complain and make a stink about it. The rights go both ways. If he really believed it was best, he shouldn’t have backtracked like a punk and stuck to his guns.

Wow… by sending a tweet, this dude just got a TON of free advertising on FOX, on Consumerist, on…..

This argument is like the abortion debate… Those that believe breast feeding is the same act as bottle feeding where ever they are will not be convinced otherwise just like those that see a breast and immediately are offended (or want to pee or poop in public in solidarity) will not be convinced otherwise.

Can we kill breastfeeding and receipt checker stories on consumerist now?

Take it from a guy who knows Brian and gets a coffee from The Doubleshot every day before work.

Brian is often misunderstood and seen as somewhat of a jerk, get to know him and he’s a great guy. Don’t get me wrong though, he’s not afraid to voice his opinion on issues from breastfeeding to fruity flavored lattes. He speaks his mind at the “expense” of polarizing his audience, if you count consider than an “expense”.

Personally, I think the presence of naysayers says you’re doing something right. People got really worked up about a tweet that should not have been taken as seriously as it was. Lighten up people. Breast feed, but do it discretely, not for the sake of making a statement. If you have a problem with their policy don’t go there.

yeah, reminds me of when people ask why when i occasionally lose an insulin pump infusion set at work and have to replace it, do i not go into the bathroom to do it. [usually i try to take care of it at home but an emergency is an emergency]
my desk is a lot cleaner than the bathroom. going into a small room with barely circulated air who knows how much potentially airborne fecal bacteria… to do something that’s supposed to be as sterile as i can get it.
bathrooms are not for eating, feeding babies, attaching medical devices or anything else similar.

Because, you know, boobs are terrible when they are used to feed a child.

How about everyone grow up? It’s a freaking childing nursing. There is nothing sexual or gross about it. Want to see gross? Look over at the average patron jamming food into their face and talking with their mouth full.

I am a breastfeeding mother and a Doubleshot patron. I agree breastfeeding in public is a mothers right, but I also feel there is a certain level of modesty that should be expressed. I am extremely modest in my breastfeeding, the only person I don’t wear a cover or a blanket in front of is my husband. I feel it is my choice to breastfeed, but it is not everyone else’s choice to watch me do it.

I don’t think business should say they don’t allow breastfeeding, but just as it is allowed to say no shirt, no shoes, no service, I feel that you should at least give every effort to not exposing your breast while breastfeeding.

He is well within his rights to banish breastfeeding from his establishment, however he has to learn to deal with the consequences of that. He says he believes people should have the right to boycott or not frequent an establishment if they disagree with how it’s run but then he whines when people do just that. bottom-line, make a stupid decision, don’t whine when people bitch about said decision.

I’m all for mother’s breastfeeding in public. I think people who get their panties in a twist over it need to grow up a little. But there are also different ways to breastfeed besides whipping the boob out. Pumping breast milk and storing it in bottles will allow you to feed your baby without having to worry about offending anyone in public, although I could care less. Every woman I’ve seen feeding her baby in public have covered up with a receiving blanket or something. Seriously guys, there are worse things to see in public.

I’m all for this guy’s rights. The more bans on breastfeeding, the fewer annoying, loud babies in the establishments I like to frequent.

Can’t people just stay home and feed their kids? I can’t scream into a megaphone everywhere I go, but I’m expected to tolerate some shrill whining or crying from someone’s kids at every cafe or restaurant?

I generally feel most people who have to breastfeed in public are doing it simply for the “look at me” factor. It’s something that, unless you are trapped there for more than a few hours, can just as easily be done at home before or after your coffee shop visit.

He sounds worse than he is sometimes. He’s just passionate about making an uncompromising product, and his industry is unfortunately fragmented in a way that he has to turn away a lot of customers who don’t understand. People come in and want super-sugary flavored blended drinks, and he doesn’t sell them. He’s so passionate that I think he tends to become a bit bitter about being unable to show these customers a different side of coffee. But he stays in business, and continues to grow, because he’s got a loyal following of people who love his coffee.

It’s hard to describe unless you visit his shop, and his product speaks for itself. Basically: no to frappuccinos and mocha caramel toffee lattes, and yes to an expertly-roasted Ethiopia Yirgacheffe brewed to perfection in a nice press pot or pourover. It’s good enough that I’d jump into a Consumerist thread and lend him a little support. :)

I am a breastfeeding mother. I have fed my daughter in just about every environment but always with an Udder Cover in front of anyone other than my hubby. I also understand that there are people that are bothered by it and I have gone to another room or to an out of the way corner to take care of my baby. Before this insanely hot summer started in GA I would feed her in the car before going into a restaurant. Unfortunately, sometimes babies are really hungry and I feel my discreet breastfeeding trumps a screaming baby.

I have the right to breastfeed my baby but I also care for others too. I even have a friend who prefers I go in a private room while I am in her home. No big deal, it’s HER home not mine.

The main thing that came to my mind when i read this article actually had nothing to do with rights of breastfeeding. Rather rules and bans are usually made in responce to problems. Does he seriously have a problem of women breastfeeding in his store? seeing as its a coffee shop I seriously wonder about that.

Mind you it seems a little shady considering his timing. Banning something thats highly debated, when its being recognized worldly seems more like an attempt to get his name out there. And it worked.

I know Brian and I’ve been a customer of the DoubleShot for a long time. This was just a joke, and his email to the news was simply venting his frustrations towards the backlash. Everyone needs to put down their pitchforks– both the Consumerist story and the Fox 23 story were a bit premature, especially given that both Brian and the original woman involved have both come out to say that it was a joke. Neither of these stories sought insight from anyone involved before publishing.

Brian’s got some controversial ideas about his interaction with customers, but if you look back at his fight against Starbucks, I think you’d find his Consumerist karma swinging in the other direction. Also– he roasts some of the best coffees out there, and it’s sad to see some mob mentality make some bad press for him.

Right so… I could imagine if I were breastfeeding a child of my own – I would be disgusted by it….
(not comparing this by the content just by the act if something coming out of a human body)
I am not disgusted by myself while in the bathroom….

but I will wretch if I see someone else going to the bathroom – just as I will wretch at a woman breast feeding because I dry heave at the thoughts and visuals of someone drinking something that is coming out of a body….

Think about this – would you be disgusted if someone had their mouth to a cow’s udder?

I WOULD! I totally would… maybe it’s just me – but I don’t want to see it.

I’m a woman too… I don’t have children. I cannot help what makes me sick to my stomach to see… I just can’t.

Is it too much to ask that a woman cover herself at least?

I can’t stand watching people inject themselves with insulin – BUT PEOPLE NEED IT OR THEY WILL DIE… most of them go into the restroom or an isolated place to do so… and I think the reprocussions of being in a dirty area and injecting yourself with something is more dangerous than injesting something that, generally, your body has a better defense of.

I agree with this man. If you all want capitalism – then you need to be FOR IT 100%… this is capitalism, a man making his own rules at HIS establishment. There’s no imminent danger – the government should not be involved.

no, i’ll inject my insulin wherever i am, it’s not safe to do that in a bathroom according my diabetes educator and my doctor. and common sense says keep the sterile medical equipment away from fecal coliform.
but i will try to make sure no one else has to see if they don’t want to. although, a lot of people i work with are in nursing school and they do want to watch. actually, before i was on an insulin pump and injecting ten times a day, i had to learn how to fill the syringe and give myself the shot while barely looking at it out of the corner of my eye – looking at needles makes me throw up too.
but you’re right, we do it to stay alive.
oh wait, what happens if you don’t feed babies?

Tell the breast feeders to take it outside if they want to feed. The outdoors are for all of us and not a private business. If this was a store that this person owned and operated, then it should be his right to not allow breast feeding. It’s not like he is saying that he doesn’t want to serve minorities, it’s more like the NO SHIRT, NO SERVICE rule.

Breastfeeding is already in a tenuous state with the prudish sensibilities of today’s victorianesque social norms. Breastfeeding is a health issue. The more breastfeeding is encouraged, the better our society. Breast feeding saves lives: breast fed babies are less likely to die of sudden infant death syndrome; and, according to recent studies, breastfeeding could save the US billions of dollars (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6342ZG20100405). Women who are inhibited when it comes to breast feeding in public are more likely to wean early and women who are inexperienced with breast feeding are more likely to give it up if they feel like their society does not support them. I can remember breastfeeding at two malls in Oklahoma and both times I felt like I was being judged even though I wasn’t, considering I used a cover and there were very few people around. I am about to have another baby and because of my experience as a veteran mom and with a successful career behind me I feel much more confident about going out into the world and feeding my child. Have you ever wondered about those young mothers who continue shopping at the store even though their child is screaming bloody murder? Perhaps they are breast feeders who don’t know what to do. Breast feed right there in the aisle to quiet their hungry baby and risk the wrath of disapproving meanies? Or drop everything and go out to the car or how about the bathroom stall? Or even the dressing room (something I have done). The most practical choice is to feed your baby on demand and not let it interfere with your own agenda because it simply isn’t necessary to stop what you are doing in order to find some isolated place to breastfeed.

Why isn’t breastfeeding celebrated by all? It is free, it helps our economy, and it generally creates healthier babies. The answer can only be that some people are offended by it when it is done in public. If you are one of those people perhaps you can ask yourself what it is about breastfeeding that you find offensive? Do you see a link between breastfeeding and sexuality? If so then you are perverting an innocent and natural act. Are there other areas in your life that you find offensive and that you relate to sexuality? Perhaps you should think about this issue because there is evidence that you suffer from a psychological sexual dysfunction. And it is no fun to suffer sexual dysfunction or sexual repression. It will make you very unhappy and cause you to say and do things that might make others not want to drink coffee (decaf or not) from your locally owned coffee shop.

I’m a woman. I’m a woman who hopes to have children some day. I have NO INTENTION of breastfeeding in public. Ever. Why would you feel comfortable lifting/opening/etc. your shirt and have your baby eat WHILE FULLY VISIBLE TO EVERYONE. Perhaps I’m more modest, but I don’t feel that is appropriate. Pump and bottle feed in public if your child is OMG STARVING (highly unlikely).

This dude thinks he has the right to ban breastfeeding? I don’t know about OK, but it’s actually the law in several states that breastfeeding is a right in any facility of public accommodation (longhand for restaurants etc.). What’s next for him, a ban on mouth breathing? (“They can always go elsewhere.”) Men and pop culture have brainwashed Western society to see breasts as merely objects intended for men’s enjoyment, and any other use of these essential organs (glands to be accurate) is not to be allowed to compete. Pathetic when this jealousy is taken to the limit.