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Re: European Politics Thread

It's also a thing that I've just heard again after a while.

My cousins live in a shitty town in the mountains, of those that everyone knows your name, and the pregnant teen or the gay boy become the talk of the town, and everyone either is a trader or works for the big farm, when they came to my hometown, middle class suburbs from the 2th to 4th biggest city of Venezuela depending on how you count and were amazed on how "people minded their own business, without complaining about the others"

My best friend from that town said so from Caracas.
My mom, lived in both that town and Caracas said so about Barcelona.
One of my coworkers, lived all his life in this city said so about London.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.

Well, Trudeau's father did say he would have sent troops if the "yes" camp would have won the 1980 referendum and martial law WAS imposed due to the FLQ which really was unnecessary... And I'd argue that such an attitude is a large part of why support for independence grew so much from the first to the second referendum (49,5%)...

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by maxterdexter

They don't like to talk about our independence wars. They call them "the secesion wars".

Tell me more Spain vs Latin American stuff, I'm going to do an empire unit in a bit and my Puerto Rican students might find it interesting if I have any Spaniard related anecdotes and funny things to mention.

Re: European Politics Thread

First, it would totally legitimise violence, hell would I be a catalan I would probaly revolt.

Second, even I there was no violence, there are tons of way to do non-violent resistence (for exemple, stop paying taxes or indefinite strike).

Third, it would certainly raise the support for separatism, I mean even moderates would feel insulted...

Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.

Kind of agree, but is the law, if a community stops doing their dutties, or "tries to undermine the sovereignty of spain" they have the right and dutty to take over. And from here we go to the rabbit hole of "The law changes for the rich" and "They don't follow the law then why would we", and a bunch of "they did it first, so we can do whatever"-isms.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Sparsebeard

Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.

It really doesn't.
He's not saying democracy and human rights would be suspended there, he's saying particular privileges of the Catalonian "state" would be suspended. No that is not remotely comparable to Turkish Kurdistan or Tibet.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Originally Posted by maxterdexter

I wonder, who the Londinense admire for their aloofnes?

It all comes down to Sweden in the end.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Originally Posted by Sparsebeard

Well, Trudeau's father did say he would have sent troops if the "yes" camp would have won the 1980 referendum and martial law WAS imposed due to the FLQ which really was unnecessary... And I'd argue that such an attitude is a large part of why support for independence grew so much from the first to the second referendum (49,5%)...

I'm not just talking about the state vs the secessionist state. I'm talking about violence among populations in the secessionist area.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Tell me more Spain vs Latin American stuff, I'm going to do an empire unit in a bit and my Puerto Rican students might find it interesting if I have any Spaniard related anecdotes and funny things to mention.

They get horribly stuned when I use a word unlike they would use it.

Like the word for "Car", for us is carro, for them a carro is either a horse carriage, a train carriage or a baby stroller, they use "Coche", that is for us exclusively baby carriage.

But is not the confusion, is like they are offended about it.

They don't like to talk about the 1800s, or the crimes they commited against other people, but love to talk about how much of an asshole Franco was to them, and that he was "Literally hitler".

There are way too many weird little towns and traditions. There's a place where they throw out a living goat out of a tower, into a trampoline-tarp-rescue-thing. There's the more classical ones, like the Bulls races, or the "Corridas", or the Tomatina. I guess should be judging the animal cruelty, so here: I condem them.

They take care and pride on their very old buildings. There's this dude from the south that keeps on talking about the "Biggest arab bathhouse in Europe".

There's a sense of a regional pride. Everyone tells you their hometown, and acts like if you have to know where it is. Or are expecting me to ask about it and I don't catch that social cue.

They remove hot soups from the menues on summer. I dislike cold soups.

They love to rhyme. For them a rhyme is more valuable than a pun or a double entendre. They enjoy them way too much.

I don't know if this is because of the difference of slang or just that they are less dirty minded, but it takes A LOT for them to get a double entendre. They go on and on about taking it from behind lying down and things that I can't even remember the actual context.

Oh, and I feel they are more sexist here. Like consistently talking about "Feminazi" as feminist, or how it is "impossible" that me as a boy had way less home related responsabilities than my female friends. And other stuff I've blocked for the sake of daily convivence. Like if women already liberated enough, and should stop asking for more. I want to think that it's just my coworkers that are over 5-8 years my seniors, as the master's classmates didn't say anything so disgusting, and they were 3-5 years my juniors.

I feel like I should close on something more positive. They are way more interested on learning about my culture than I'm about theirs. I'm not used to turning on my curiosity on people.

I had not a full experience on this, as my situation was pretty irregular, as I haven't the need to integrate too much into the culture, as my coworkers and classmates migrated around the same time.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

It really doesn't.
He's not saying democracy and human rights would be suspended there, he's saying particular privileges of the Catalonian "state" would be suspended. No that is not remotely comparable to Turkish Kurdistan or Tibet.

But they are close to that line when they start sending frinkin paramilitaries, beating up random voters who aren't even protesting and talking about arresting police officiers or politicians.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I'm not just talking about the state vs the secessionist state. I'm talking about violence among populations in the secessionist area.

Sure, and I'm just saying that such a thing might have been closer to happen in Québec than it may seems to external observers...

Originally Posted by maxterdexter

Kind of agree, but is the law, if a community stops doing their dutties, or "tries to undermine the sovereignty of spain" they have the right and dutty to take over. And from here we go to the rabbit hole of "The law changes for the rich" and "They don't follow the law then why would we", and a bunch of "they did it first, so we can do whatever"-isms.

But in the long term, I don't believe it will help their cause, especially if Spain wants to remain democratic. It will only reinforce the belief that they should take the first opportunity for independence that presents itself... a bit like Iraki Kurdistan I believe.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Sparsebeard

But they are close to that line when they start sending frinkin paramilitaries,

"Paramilitaries" as in ....the rarely if ever used context of "something between police and army troops"? Or "Paramilitaries" in the usual sense of the word, which is absolutely not in play or anywhere close to it (thank god).

beating up random voters who aren't even protesting and talking about arresting police officiers or politicians.

Violent cop beatings is not outside the pale of the first world unfortunately. Even if it is ugly and bad. Pretty sure even if distasteful the arrests or removals from office would still be within the bounds of law.

This is magnitudes removed from Turkey let alone China.

Sure, and I'm just saying that such a thing might have been closer to happen in Québec than it may seems to external observers...

I don't really think it ever had the possibility of going too deep, I think it went exactly as deep as it was ever going to. The grievances just seem too shallow compared to the usual cases, no offense.
Anglo Canada even lacks Spain's post-empire wounded pride that makes their reaction to Catalonia somewhat unpredictable.

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

"Paramilitaries" as in ....the rarely if ever used context of "something between police and army troops"? Or "Paramilitaries" in the usual sense of the word, which is absolutely not in play or anywhere close to it (thank god).

Still is pretty bad when you send the "almost-military" to stop a peaceful vote.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Pretty sure even if distasteful the arrests or removals from office would still be within the bounds of law.

I don't think it's much of a point if the laws in question are unfair. I mean, many political arrests in countries like Russia, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc. are "within the bounds of the laws".

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I don't really think it ever had the possibility of going too deep, I think it went exactly as deep as it was ever going to. The grievances just seem too shallow compared to the usual cases, no offense.

Re: European Politics Thread

Still is pretty bad when you send the "almost-military" to stop a peaceful vote.

Yes it is bad. But let's not get carried away with the comparisons. Especially to literal police states like China.

I don't think it's much of a point if the laws in question are unfair. I mean, many political arrests in countries like Russia, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc. are "within the bounds of the laws".

And I repeat.

But, thing is, gravity of offence is highly relative

I mean that the population in question is suffering in ways that create the pressure for that violence. The North Irish Troubles kicked off because the Catholic population were living in something of an apartheid state, where peaceful demonstration had been outright stomped on.
Did French-Canadians in the 20th century experience any sort of pressure anywhere near that?

That requires a greater sense of us and them in the tribal sense, the ethnic sense. Something I'm really not sure is so true in Spain. Catalonians seem to have a strong nationalism, but one powered more by something similar to how California feels toward red state America than some sort of deep seated tribal identity toward the rest of Spain. Vice versa I don't think other Spaniards have some sense of the same.
Now your own land? There's more of that sort of groundwork, but while French-Canadians have that sort of identity, Anglo-Canada sure as shit doesn't on the other end (Anglo-Canada really doesn't know who it is aside from "not America").
I can't see Anglo-Canadians feeling like a Quebec bomber killing a bunch of Nova Scotians is a personal attack on "their people".

Re: European Politics Thread

Seems to me, Spain wants to take things the violent way, on which Catalynia would never win, while independentist are trying to avoid that one way in particular and get it done with any other possible way

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Yes it is bad. But let's not get carried away with the comparisons. Especially to literal police states like China.

And I repeat.

If that is your point I can agree, after all, I never meant that Spain is as bad as North Korea, only that it looks very undemocratic/almost autoritarian. But then, mostly in principle or compared to countries like Great Britain during the scottish referendum...

[QUOTE=Monkey King;3832227]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I mean that the population in question is suffering in ways that create the pressure for that violence. The North Irish Troubles kicked off because the Catholic population were living in something of an apartheid state, where peaceful demonstration had been outright stomped on.

Did French-Canadians in the 20th century experience any sort of pressure anywhere near that?

That requires a greater sense of us and them in the tribal sense, the ethnic sense. Something I'm really not sure is so true in Spain. Catalonians seem to have a strong nationalism, but one powered more by something similar to how California feels toward red state America than some sort of deep seated tribal identity toward the rest of Spain. Vice versa I don't think other Spaniards have some sense of the same.

Now your own land? There's more of that sort of groundwork, but while French-Canadians have that sort of identity, Anglo-Canada sure as shit doesn't on the other end (Anglo-Canada really doesn't know who it is aside from "not America").

I can't see Anglo-Canadians feeling like a Quebec bomber killing a bunch of Nova Scotians is a personal attack on "their people".

My point was that people from Québec could have resorted to things like terrorisism or even unilateral declaration of independence.

Then the cnd gouv. may have felt the need to "crackdown".

Which could easily be used to stir shit up, especially with some propaganda...

Then the cnd gouv. may have felt the need for more "crackdown"...

Still, it's all so hypothetical that it doesn't really mean anything. Perhaps barely that peace can never be taken for granted or that there are scenarios where things could have turned badly even in Quebec.

As for your question about french-canadian grieviences, many are merely historical by now for exemple:

Things from the far past like the war of conquest, the assimilation of many francophone regions of Canada and the present day USA, deportation of acadians, the ruthless anwser to the patriots revolt, murder of metis, alleged genocide of autochtones (beotuks for exemple).

But there was also some more real issues (most of which have been addressed at least in part by now):

The marginalisation of french-speakers in canadian institutions (army, politics, etc.) and economy (most of business was in english and frenchs where mostly peasants), there is a case to be made that french could have dissepeared in the long run through immigration from english speaking countries and assimilation in order to make our lives better. I mean Montreal was pretty much an english speaking city where you couldn'be served in french if you wanted to...

But most of that is mostly not true anymore, new immigrants are mostly from the francophony and the "law 101" prohibits the dominance of english in public affairs. Most of it was done through what was called the "quiet revolution".

Re: European Politics Thread

After 7 months of dicking around, the new Dutch governing coalition is finally being finalized and it's full of radical capitalist goodies like a flat income tax, cutting corporate taxes to 21% and a bunch of other pointless tax cuts that will bite the country in the ass when the next recession comes knocking. But at least they're raising the VAT on primary goods! Because fuck poor people.

On the other hand, there is a binding climate law, experiments with legal weed and official forms will be gender neutral.

Re: European Politics Thread

So their priorities after we've been through decades of neoliberalism is... More neoliberalism, plus gender neutral stuff, because it's politically correct. "Why the hell is the far right back, I wonder!?" When you spend decades screwing poor people over and over and force political correctness down their throats as if it's the main priority of your political program and you still claim to be social-democrat/labour/left-anything, it's no wonder your party nearly disappears (F you, Djisselbloem, really F you. I was so happy to see him thrashed after all the crap he gave to my country). What's even more surprising is that the alternatives present the exact same or even more extreme neoliberal solutions. Have they learned nothing from the last decade? Even the IMF is admitting troika policies were wrong and do not work. Same thing is happening in France. This Macron guy who is clearly just another neoliberal banker guy who wants to deregulate labour laws, deregulate financial markets and slash welfare is somehow presented as a solution to all problems because the alternative seems to be essentially fascism. A couple of days after he is voted in, everyone is tired od him already and strikes are breaking out all over the place against his policies. What the hell, Europe? What the hell...

Re: European Politics Thread

I don't get the satanization towards 'neoliberalism', literally any local capitalism/globalization friendly politics are called neoliberalism, while non-friendly capitalism/globalization politics simply don't work.
What do people actually expect as a different and possible way other than evil neoliberalism as a path to take :/

Re: European Politics Thread

Hmm, I don't know, maybe classical liberalism? Social-democracy, which provided the most balanced societies and prilonged economic growth out of any recent historical period? Maybe not facilitating companies treating workers as disposable goods and not treating subsidies and public companies as devils who stop the economy from working properly? Maybe not injecting ridiculous sums of public money which we're told cannot go into the welfare state or construction projects into failing banks and still reward the administrators who caused the banks to fail? Maybe learn from the past and realise that uncontrolled laissez faire capitalism leads to extreme inequality, which leads to slowdown of growth, which leads to more poverty and unemployment, which leads to public frustration and radicalization (mainly towards the far right)? Since when did globalization and market liberalization become the single rational answer that politicians apply to everything? Post-WW2 Europe was built on 2 pillars. Increasing economic and political uninty between countries in the form of the European communities (presently EU), and the welfare state, based on the idea that societies should be cohesive and strive towards more equality and prosperity for all, with the better off helping proportionally more than the worse off. One of these pillars has been consistently eroded since Thatcher erupted into the scene and the consequences are pretty obvious, to the point where even the IMF has admited to the wrongness of their past policies.

Re: European Politics Thread

Good but everyone knows he's doing this because lots of strikes are scheduled in the next weeks and also because he's being portrayed as the "president of the rich". And let's not forget that he called those who are making strikes against his neo-liberal labor laws "lazy and cynical".

Re: European Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Nilitch

Good but everyone knows he's doing this because lots of strikes are scheduled in the next weeks and also because he's being portrayed as the "president of the rich". And let's not forget that he called those who are making strikes against his neo-liberal labor laws "lazy and cynical".

Macron seems by far the most resonnable and centrist president that France could get. I mean, it does seem that France's public function is a bit bloated and too much taxes kill taxes.

Plus, he seems to be a resonnable progressist who truly wants to make Europe work, pro-integration, not xenophobic and some good will towards nations in difficulty like Greece. Truly, I feel that politicians like that are the hope of Europe if he has his way, I feel he could truly make it work.

He's got none of the bad traits of the left (hate towards the wealth creators, illogical taxation ambitions, exageration on the role of the state, etc.) and the right (racisism, patriotism, anti-environnementalism, corruption to help lobbyists, etc.).