Then you are doing it wrong. The problem isn't that tanks potentially can do good damage if they ignore survival. The problem is that a tank who does his job properly (pushes his correct buttons for rage and shit like that) will do good damage because of vengeance. Vengeance is overpowered. As soon as a tank gets more than 200k vengeance for most of the fight (the new cap won't matter) he will be able to do as much damage as the dps.

When will he get > 200k veng this tier ? (Outside of Dark Animus and taking Lei-shen after decaps)
And if we're talking about next tier, the traditional dps's damage will also go up a lot.

Leveling up, tank damage can feel a little weird, but honestly that has more to do with tank specs getting access to AoEs earlier than most DPS specs and the baseline scaling on their abilities. Vengeance gain at low levels is negligible and has nothing to do with your tank out-DPSing you.

At endgame, Vengeance is a much-needed mechanic and helps make LFD/LFR queues go more easily. It's a self-correcting mechanism. If the DPS is weak, whether due to lack of gear or lack of skill, tank damage runs higher. With a group of good DPS, tank damage falls.

If the tanks are consistently out-DPSing you in LFD/LFR and are in equivalent gear, then barring a few specific fights or a situation where one tank is cutting the other out and ignoring swaps, then you need to do some research and sharpen your game, because it's not Vengeance that's overshadowing you.

out of control no...but if they do nerf it they need to completely rehaul active mitgation since it works around us having insane vengeance to heal and defend ourselves the way we do without it most tanks would be lost and would be going back to getting crushed with nothing to do to stop it.

Vengeance is a problem, and it should just be flat out removed. I've seen most tanks be around 5th on the DPS meters in 25 mans. Why is a tank doing that much damage, why does he NEED to do that much damage?

Yeah, it's not like that attack power is affecting our heals or shields in any significant way, right? Mitigation will be totally unaffected by a complete removal on vengeance. /s

Here is a follow up question to your own: Why does it MATTER that they do that much damage?

Originally Posted by ChaosWolf

This. The only people complaining about tank DPS are folks who have crappy DPS to begin with and get all aggravated the guy with the shield is hurting the boss more than them, and PVPers who get rumpbothered about tank specs actually being a threat to their health bars for the first time since the game began.

Neither opinion is valid. Vengeance is fine, and keeps tanks from falling asleep and/or feeling like they could be replaced by a brick wall and nobody would notice.

On some fights, it IS impossible to outdamage a tank. Ra-den is an example of this. However, it really shouldn't be an issue; it is not affecting the dps in every way. The DPS should just pretend that guy at the top of the damage meters isn't there instead of requesting overly-broad, game-breaking changes for such a petty issue.

Vengeance does not activate in PvP at all.

Originally Posted by voidspark

Then in the current state of things, you're doing it wrong.

I could be cheesing vengeance through spamming /sit, standing in things and gearing all out crit/haste for maximum dps, but why would I put extra strain on the healers, waste their mana and risk unnecessary deaths and wipes? Is the extra DPS REALLY worth all that?

I don't know about you, but I am outraged at the concept of Demonology warlocks. They can both DPS AND they can tank things with that stupid metamorphosis form. Add their life drains, and it is like they are doing 3 roles at once. As a tank, why should I bother tanking anymore when some DPS spec can just come along and do it? Why not just bring 8 demonology warlocks and 2 healers? Blizzard should just remove metamorphosis. It is just plain out of control, and unlike vengeance it DOES work in PvP! Remove it, I say. It is not like there will be any serious consequences for Warlocks, they just won't be able to cheese fights anymore.

I don't know about you, but I am outraged at the concept of Demonology warlocks. They can both DPS AND they can tank things with that stupid metamorphosis form. Add their life drains, and it is like they are doing 3 roles at once. As a tank, why should I bother tanking anymore when some DPS spec can just come along and do it? Why not just bring 8 demonology warlocks and 2 healers?

Dark Apotheosis is great for questing, maybe for some occasional heroic scenario. But what concerns raids, warlocks must heavily overgear raid in order to tank there.

i wrote in other similar thread easy ways to deal with Vengeance's problem - removing it altogether and making Stamina->AP conversion (less than when being at max Vengeance ofc, but so you wouldn't feel gimped in questing). Dodge/Parry->Hit/Exp conversion could also be done to make tanking stats more important. Voila! Vengeance problems and exploits are solved!

Yes, it is. I long for the days of simplistic tanking where you didn't have to care about DPS and just do your rotation to keep threat going and know when to use cooldowns. I think the game went in the wrong direction in regards to tanks.

Yes, it is. I long for the days of simplistic tanking where you didn't have to care about DPS and just do your rotation to keep threat going and know when to use cooldowns. I think the game went in the wrong direction in regards to tanks.

Here is a follow up question to your own: Why does it MATTER that they do that much damage?

I'll give it the same answer that I have given in this thread: It means they scale more with gear and skill putting too much importance on one person compared to the rest of the group. Even without any damage (which is not the state of tanking I desire nor am suggesting), tanks were still extremely important members of the group. Now they are out of proportion important compared to any other raid member.

Is it nice being the only person that matters when you're tanking a PUG run (where you'd expect that others members of the group have little to no skill)? Sure. I won't deny it, it definitely is a good thing for me (and the rest of the group I'm in, mind you, at least for most groups I get) if I matter more to the run than the other 4 members combined? Is it good for the game overall? Probably not, all players need at least some incentive to improve even at the low end.

Originally Posted by FpicEail

I could be cheesing vengeance through spamming /sit, standing in things and gearing all out crit/haste for maximum dps, but why would I put extra strain on the healers, waste their mana and risk unnecessary deaths and wipes? Is the extra DPS REALLY worth all that?

There is a difference between being overly stupid and not minding your DPS at all. The player I was responding to basically said he didn't care what DPS he did as a tank. That is the wrong mindset today, you don't have to be taking so much unnecessary damage to mind your own output. And if you have the ability to take extra damage without straining your healers (such as turning 100% overheal into 60% overheal), you should.

Originally Posted by FpicEail

I don't know about you, but I am outraged at the concept of Demonology warlocks. They can both DPS AND they can tank things with that stupid metamorphosis form. Add their life drains, and it is like they are doing 3 roles at once. As a tank, why should I bother tanking anymore when some DPS spec can just come along and do it? Why not just bring 8 demonology warlocks and 2 healers? Blizzard should just remove metamorphosis. It is just plain out of control, and unlike vengeance it DOES work in PvP! Remove it, I say. It is not like there will be any serious consequences for Warlocks, they just won't be able to cheese fights anymore.

1) Using the "tank form" in PvP gets you the "tank" flag carry debuff.

2) Between this and atonement healing is a-whole-nother topic, which I have no desire to get into here.

The original purpose of vengeance was so that tank dps scaled evenly with dps dps. At the end of Wrath, tanks were still usually doing no more than 3k dps with dps doing several times more, and because threat modifiers were nowhere near what they are today, it meant that the dps could easily generate far more threat than the tank. This problem didn't really exist at the start of the expansion because the difference between damage done by dps and tanks wasn't so huge. Vengeance was introduced so that tank damage would scale similarly - the tank would get attack power based on their health, which would scale at the same rate as a dps's damage, solving the problem.

The thing is, tanks now have 500% threat modifiers. They don't need vengeance to maintain threat at all. There's a very real case to be made for just scrapping it altogether, perhaps increasing tanks' base damage a little to compensate.

The original purpose of vengeance was so that tank dps scaled evenly with dps dps. At the end of Wrath, tanks were still usually doing no more than 3k dps with dps doing several times more, and because threat modifiers were nowhere near what they are today, it meant that the dps could easily generate far more threat than the tank. This problem didn't really exist at the start of the expansion because the difference between damage done by dps and tanks wasn't so huge. Vengeance was introduced so that tank damage would scale similarly - the tank would get attack power based on their health, which would scale at the same rate as a dps's damage, solving the problem.

The thing is, tanks now have 500% threat modifiers. They don't need vengeance to maintain threat at all. There's a very real case to be made for just scrapping it altogether, perhaps increasing tanks' base damage a little to compensate.

Scrapping it entirely is simply not a possibility without completely revamping every single tank ability, as well as every single healing spell given to every healing class in the game.

The game has been balanced around the expected vengeance levels to be gained while tanking an encounter. The amount of vengeance directly corresponds to the amount of the tank's self heals and absorbs. Simply removing this, without having an entire re-working of the balance of heals in the game would lead to an impossible raiding scenario.

Everyone is crying about the damage done by tanks with vengeance, what none of you really consider is the defensive value of vengeance and how important it really is to the balance of world of warcraft.

Just imagine, blizzard listens to retards complaining about tanks doing too much damage, so they remove vengeance, but oops, now we have to re-balance every single healer in the game.
"Fuck, now we have to re-balance them all again for PvP, because the arena kids are complaining. FUCK!!! Now we completely ruined the entire raiding environment for a full tier of content, maybe we should have thought a little bit more about it before we removed a mechanic we specifically designed to aid in class balance!"

Grow up, deal with it. And for the idiots linking ra-den logs, seriously, fuck yourselves. It's the worst example possible for the need to remove vengeance. Blame the developers for not putting more effort into designing their fucking encounters to require more than 1 tank, not the way classes are balanced.

Grow up, deal with it. And for the idiots linking ra-den logs, seriously, fuck yourselves. It's the worst example possible for the need to remove vengeance. Blame the developers for not putting more effort into designing their fucking encounters to require more than 1 tank, not the way classes are balanced.

So basically you're going to simply dismiss every log where tanks do extreme damage, and then claim that tanks don't do extreme damage.

So basically you're going to simply dismiss every log where tanks do extreme damage, and then claim that tanks don't do extreme damage.

Not sure who the "idiot" who has to "grow up" is...

He has a point though. Linking ra-den or dark animus zerg strat as your only points IS extreme bias. For the same record one could say demo locks are OP and ONLY link Hc Council or Hc Durumu. It just doesn't work like that.

Also, a couple comments ago you said that a tank that knows how to utilise vengeance will do more damage than the average DPS; I find this argument also to be unneeded, since we need to base our findings on the assumptions that the DPSers in question ARE of the same skill / gear level as the tank.

Imagine lets say Treckie or Slootbag against their DPSers if they didn't cheese vengeance. The only fight that their tanks would be top DPS would be cheering an encounter (letting only tanks on lei shen hc balls or sitting in void zones or just plain old sitting. They won't ever be higher than their dpsers.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still think that sitting or purposefully damaging yourself should reward you with 0 extra vengeance, but so far all your pointers to why Ve geanve is 'out of control' are not factual enough.

Also, this is off-topic, but it's surprisingly funny and sad at the same time; both times that you've replied to me you just took an opening sentence and went on ignoring everything else in the post. Well played.

He has a point though. Linking ra-den or dark animus zerg strat as your only points IS extreme bias. For the same record one could say demo locks are OP and ONLY link Hc Council or Hc Durumu. It just doesn't work like that.

Ok, let's add Lei Shen, Iron Qon, Twins, Durumu, Horridon into the mix. Oh wait, all that is also "extreme bias?" I guess the only non-"extreme bias" is to ignore each and every fight tanks dominate and then claim "tanks don't dominate." The two fights everyone mentions happens to be ones where tanks not only are up there with the DPS (who, by the way, are also top parsing DPS) but are blowing them out of the water.

Here's some "extreme bias" for you: The only fights I see on 25H where tanks are more or less nowhere near in sight are Jin'rokh and Primordius. Tell me that those are "fair fights" on behalf of the tank, with no massive DPS-boosting mechanics.

Originally Posted by Pickwickman

Also, this is off-topic, but it's surprisingly funny and sad at the same time; both times that you've replied to me you just took an opening sentence and went on ignoring everything else in the post. Well played.

Because there's no need to quote a useless, irrelevant, wall of text.

---

Here's some "surprisingly funny and sad" for you: I've given some arguments, objectively, as to why tanks being overly important is a bad thing. I've seen no responses nor refutations, and the only counterarguments I've seen are a mix of: "boss dies faster," "DPS need to stop crying," and "tanks should be double DPS damage because I like to feel important."

Here's some "surprisingly funny and sad" for you: I've given some arguments, objectively, as to why tanks being overly important is a bad thing. I've seen no responses nor refutations, and the only counterarguments I've seen are a mix of: "boss dies faster," "DPS need to stop crying," and "tanks should be double DPS damage because I like to feel important."

Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

My argument has has had very little to do with the domination of tank dps, I have repeatedly pointed out the real issue of the self healing provided by vengeance, and the balancing of all healing classes by blizzard which is tied directly to the amount of vengeance expected to be gained in each encounter by a tank. To adjust the way vengeance is given to tanks would force an entire re-balance of every single healer spell of every single healing class in order to maintain a viable raiding environment. These are typically not the kinds of complete re-hashing of central character mechanics blizzard is willing to make in the middle of an expansion.

I acknowledge that on it's face, tanks doing as much damage as they are doing may make some people feel as though they are under-perfoming, or have no way based in reality to compete with these numbers (which is true in some cases,) but really, what is the problem with it?

I have given you a direct reason why you're viewpoint is invalid, as is tradition on the internet, when someone is shown to be wrong, that person is now entitled to make a personal attack at the person who pointed out their retardation, so, flame on sir.

Also, to be fair, I have topped meters on both H Jin-rok and H Primordius, if that makes you feel worse about yourself, I apologize.

My argument has has had very little to do with the domination of tank dps... To adjust the way vengeance is given to tanks would force an entire re-balance of every single healer spell of every single healing class in order to maintain a viable raiding environment. These are typically not the kinds of complete re-hashing of central character mechanics blizzard is willing to make in the middle of an expansion.

If you read anything I said earlier, I already said my arguments were pertaining to 6.0 only. I in fact did say that any vengeance nerfs now (5.4) are just counterproductive.

So yet again, I've seen no arguments. Obviously in 6.0, if they nerfed vengeance contribution to DPS they would adjust self-healing accordingly.

Originally Posted by djtravitrav

I have given you a direct reason why you're viewpoint is invalid, as is tradition on the internet, when someone is shown to be wrong, that person is now entitled to make a personal attack at the person who pointed out their retardation, so, flame on sir.

I think you're the only one who's actually thrown a fit in this thread.