1 Don't use any kind of slur. This should be an absolute no-brainer. If you ever feel the need to call anyone a slur, shut the fark up immediately and go jump in the nearest lake.Don't call Palestinians "animals" or "savages." This is a dehumanizing tactic, used to justify or diminish attacks against Palestinians on grounds that they aren't really human and don't require the same consideration as people like us. This is racist. Always. In every context.

2 Don't claim Palestinians don't really love their children or don't really value human life. Another dehumanizing tactic is to point to "unnatural" behavior on the part of the targeted group as proof that they are less human.Don't do it. The fact that anyone can repeat this claim even after the front page pictures of Jihad Masharawi carrying his son Omar just boggles my mind.

3 Don't claim Palestinian children are "taught to hate" or somehow less innocent than other children. Another dehumanizing tactic, and a particularly disgusting one, as it's typically used to downplay the deaths of Palestinian children. If you feel the need to say that the deaths of certain children aren't really 44as sad as others, ever, you need to walk away from the discussion at hand.

4 Don't say "Muslim" when you mean Palestinian. I see this a lot. Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but there are plenty of Palestinian Christians, too, as well as other groups. (There were even Palestinian Jews, whose communities predated British control of the area, although needless to say they are now Israelis rather than Palestinians in the current sense.) Not all Palestinians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Palestinian. They aren't interchangeable terms.

5 Don't say "Arab" when you mean Palestinian. Arab is a wider term, encompassing an entire ethnic group and bloc of countries. Palestinians are a distinct group within the Pan-Arab world, with their own unique culture, customs, and Arabic dialect. Use the appropriate term in the appropriate context, rather than making blanket statements about wider groups than you intend.

6 Don't claim Islam is inherently violent and evil. People who believe this are comparing Islam as practiced in poverty-stricken areas to Christianity or Judaism as practiced in affluent areas. See the problem there? People who are poor and oppressed, on the whole, engage in more violence and subscribe to more extremist forms of religions-regardless of what religions they practice, because the real problem isn't the religion, it's the poverty and oppression.Attacking an entire religion in this way is not only based on apples-to-oranges nonsense, but tinged with racism as well. (Before you protest that last assertion, look up just how many of the Islamic practices people freak out about are also practiced by Jews, then see if you can still come up with a reason for attacking only Islam that doesn't rest on the fact that the stereotypical Jew is white-passing but the stereotypical Muslim is not.)

7 Don't say or imply that all Palestinians are terrorists or support terrorists. It's not true, and it smacks of dehumanizing ("we don't need to treat them with the same consideration we give people like us because they're inherently evil and violent"). I'm betting many of you would rather not be judged by some of the actions of your current government, so don't do the same thing to others.

8 Don't use any variant of the "we made the desert bloom" trope. This is basically the same racist argument European settlers in the Americas used-claiming they deserved the land because they made better use of it than the people whose land it originally was. In fact, Palestinians were farming, tending orchards, and raising livestock on the land well before Israel existed. Even if they weren't, "I took it because I could make better use of it" wouldn't get you off a theft charge in court, so why is it relevant here?

9 Don't use any variant of the "a land without a people for a people without a land" trope. See the previous point. There were most definitely people on the land before Israel. To deny that is to erase the existence of Palestinians and their history. Erasure of a culture is never okay.

10 Don't claim there is "no such thing" as Palestine or Palestinians. This also applies to people who put Palestine and Palestinian in quotation marks. Quibbling with the terms people choose to describe themselves and their culture is another form of erasure. Palestinians obviously exist. You don't have the right to decide what they can and can't call themselves.

11 Don't say Palestinians have no historical connection to the land or should go back to "their real countries." Again, Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country. Once again, the words Palestinian and Arab are not interchangeable. Just because Palestinians are Arab doesn't mean they have the same culture and history as Arabs in other countries, any more than being a white American gives someone the same culture and history as white Europeans.

12 Don'tcall Palestinians "Amalek" or cite Torah/Bible verses calling for the extermination of non-Jewish groups in Canaan. Calling for genocide isn't remotely farking acceptable, ever, and couching it in religion doesn't make it any more so. I can't believe I even have to say this. STOP.

15 Don't demand that Palestinians or their allies take public note of Israeli casualties, affirm Israel's right to exist, or publicly repudiate Hamas.People who make this demand are assuming that Palestinians are terrible people or undeserving of being heard out unless they "prove" themselves acceptable by Zionists' standards.

16 Don't blow off Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims if they tell you what you are saying is racist or Islamophobic. Not all pro-Israel speech is racist, but some undeniably is. Actually give the accusation your consideration and hear the accuser out. If they fail to convince you, that's fine. But at least hear them out (without talking over them) before you decide that.

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield

seadoo2006:ocschwar: It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.

The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.

Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.

Actually the British were trying to remain fair to the native Palestinians - or at least as fair as possible - given that they had sold their soul to the Zionists via the Balfour Declaration of 1917:

QUOTE:

Dear Lord Rothschild,

[...]

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

END QUOTE (Note the bolded)

The above declaration was the formalization of a quid pro quo agreement in which the Brits promised to secure Palestine as a "national home" for Jews IN EXCHANGE for Zionists securing financing (and other "help") for the struggling Brits in WWI (1917).

It served the purposes of the Zionists (who had been struggling in vain to get their grubby paws on Palestine for decades), and the Brits who were on the verge of losing the war without additional funding (and other "things", such as help from Uncle Sam, etc).

While this served the interests of the Zionists, they were frustrated to discover that (A) very few Jews had any interest in moving to "the Homeland", and (B) that the Brits intended to live up to their pledge NOT to "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

OF course the Zionists had NO interest in sharing "their land" with a bunch of filthy Palestinian natives, so when the British insisted on a degree of fairness and equity, the Zionists decided that they had no further need for these Limeys, and politely asked them to leave by bombing the shiat out of their headquarters in the King David Hotel.

This remains the single deadliest act of terrorism EVER committed in Palestine, murdering 91 and injuring 46. The mastermind of the plot was eventually found, and the Zionists "punished" him by electing him Prime Minister of Israel.

So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.

dr_blasto:Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society? They obviously don't want them to have a state, that makes taking the land a messier prospect. And everyone knows goddamn well they aren't going to be welcomed in to Israel even if they laid down their guns and cut off their trigger fingers as penance, it would wreck the Jewish majority.

There is only one outcome, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians do.

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.

This is the excuse the IDF was waiting for to launch their ground offensive. You'll seen Israeli tanks in Gaza by the weekend, I guarantee it.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm very much hoping that this is as you say a non-event and Israel will continue to be restrained. My guess is they won't and this is the sort of incident that touches off a much larger response.

The whole situation is so sad and I really don't want WWIII to start on my favorite holiday :/

So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.

Tatsuma:Happy Hours: It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.

If only they were peaceful, and had a Gandhi-like figure leading them, they would have had their state a long long long time ago.

They are their own worst enemies.

Well, next to the people who herded them into ghettos and stole their land and destroyed their businesses, yes.

namatad:Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.

Israel is a country that exits and will continue to exist no matter how hard some people in the ME want to wish it away. The people of Israel are well entitled to continue to live in Israel. This is fact, both in a humanitarian sense and in compliance with international customs and law.

The problem is that the nation of Israel, as it exists today, is young. Israel has put up with implicit and explicit threats to her very existence since 1948. Part of the difficulty stems from the purge of the Palestinians that didn't want to deal with them--some of them are still alive. Their kids are alive. Israel's policies supporting their settler movement aren't helping heal any old wounds. Gaza has been taken over by Hamas, a group whose stated their goals of Israel's destruction and is perfectly OK with using terrorism to accomplish, well, something. It certainly won't be the destruction of Israel.

When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

It's a shame; the people of Israel don't deserve to live a life of exploding buses and evacuating areas because of shiatty rocket attacks at random intervals-you shouldn't have to face the possibility of someone blowing you up on the way to school no matter where you live. The people in the West Bank shouldn't be harassed by settlers and just because you're born in that area, you cannot travel, you cannot leave--you're effectively imprisoned through poverty and no nation, no passport, no wealth and no options. Houses shouldn't be bulldozed because the occupational authority just doesn't want you around and given the population density of the Gaza Strip, there's no way innocent people aren't going to pay for the recalcitrance of their governing body. A two-year-old doesn't know who's running shiat and has no way of shaming the bad actors into putting their rocket launchers elsewhere.

It took us almost two hundred years to get to where we are with the native nations. I hope Israel and the Palestinians don't take that long for their own sakes.

meep3d:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?

Lemme see your teeth, drinking that much Kool-aid has to be giving you some nasty cavities.

But you go ahead and cling to your technicality whereby Gaza isn't "occupied" because the troops don't stay for more than 24 hours at a time, even tho' no one is allowed to leave and citizens are killed every time the troops come in.

meep3d:DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

The only solution is a power sharing agreement and reconciliation process similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa into a single secular democracy. Highly unlikely right now, but maybe in 50 years they're figure out apartheid and ethnic nationalism doesn't work. It is the only long term solution in these situations. Either that, or the colonizer leaves. Two states is delusional.

meep3d:What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

What I post in all these threads these days:

From the israeli side:1: Officially declare Gaza and the WB part of Israel.2: Give everybody who lives there (arab and jew) full rights as israeli citizens.

From the palestinian side:1: Give up the notion of a palestinian state. Not gonna happen.2: As de facto israeli citizens, demand the right to vote and run for office in israeli elections.

No, it won't immediately become a land of milk and honey, but it's pretty much inevitable at this point. The two-state solution is dead and the status quo won't last much longer.

cman:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

So... when the Israelis kicked people out of their own homes/country, they have the right to fight back? Got it.

Summoner101:meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

Aside from Native Americans and possibly the IRA, are there that many apples to apples comparisons for Palestinian relations with the West?

Yes, it's just a matter of distance. The USA's constant meddling,regime changes and support of oppressive governments begat 9/11 yet nobody claims it is justifiable 'resistance', despite the group responsible claiming to have a legitimate reason.

Attacking civilians indiscriminately is never acceptable, yet the Palestinians have done so tens of thousands of times.

Suede head:Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?

cman:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

'while unfortunate....''While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Suede head:Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

Actually if current trend continues Israel as we know it today will cease to exist. The Palestinians/Arabs have the most effective weapon of all.. and it doesn't even involve a single bullet or rocket. It's call birthrate. They are breeding like crazy while the jews have a pretty much stagnated birthrate. The only 'jews' who are breeding in any numbers of significance are the real orthodox type jews and as a group they are pretty much useless when it comes to Israeli security, politics or contributing to economic vitality of the state.

It's strange, despite all the civilian casualties we incurred in Iraq, we never had to cruise-missile a residential neighborhood, not even in the "insurgent stronghold" cities. Israel's basically had Gaza under siege for five years - they're using a minimum calorie count to keep the population weak, they're denying medicine and consumer goods, they've even blocked communications ... and yet, according to you and the other chickenhawks, the Hamas fighters are still so damned powerful, coordinated, and dangerous that we have to nuke the site from orbit to be safe.

The IDF must be the weakest, most poorly-trained piece of shiat army on life, OR they must be entirely indifferent to the notion of hundreds of civilian casualties. It's one or the other: shiatty soldiers or war criminals.

You mean the 13 year old with the missile crew that had just shot an Israeli jeep? Why didn't he just get out of there when he saw what they were doing?? (I see three options: Darwin, human shield or he was part of it.)

I mean the 13-year-old who was playing soccer nearby when an IDF soldier was too busy shooting 'terrorists' to check fire. But hey, I'm sure it's more comforting to accept the explanation "well, if he got shot he *obviously* was involved somehow" than to accept that your tax dollars are funding a military that indiscriminately kills children rather than, you know, exercise restraint.

Gaza? Israel *TRIED* to give it back to Egypt as part of their peace deal. Egypt didn't want it.

You're either retarded or trolling. If Israel was willing to give it away, why did they put it under an armed blockade when the Palestinians moved to solidify control? Could it be that they were only willing to give it to Egypt because, since the 80s at least, Egypt was second among Middle-Eastern nations in terms of the amount of US money, aid, and influence it accepted, and Egypt had (since the 80s, at least), a history of violent suppression of upstart groups (those demanding religious freedom or democratic elections, for example) and could thus be counted on to follow US policy or suppress any Palestinian movements?

if Israel literally didn't want Gaza they could have named it the Palestinian state, but that would have required recognizing Palestinian sovereignty and might have forced them to stop putting Palestinian refugees into concentration camps.

I *linked* to news articles and eyewitness-accounts about this stuff in one of my Boobiess in this thread. I understand there's been a lot of action here so it's hard to read everything, but it'd be sweet if bombastic assholes whose only middle-eastern education comes from the Washington Journal and TV news would take just a few minutes to make sure the things "everyone knows" aren't in the same category as "the earth is flat."

tekmo:meep3d: The USA's constant meddling,regime changes and support of oppressive governments begat 9/11

Hmmmm, not really.

Here's the sequence of events:Saddam got frisky and invaded Kuwait.Saudi Arabia got justifiably concerned for their own security.Osama bin Laden went to the Saudis and insisted, "My holy warriors will be happy to protect you!"Saudi Arabia laughed at OBL and invited the US military to protect them instead.OBL got butthurt and issued a fatwa against Americans and Jews for daring to pollute the Holy Peninsula with their infidel feet.The US didn't give a shiat.OBL started attacking US embassies in Africa.Yet the US didn't make OBL Public Enemy #1.OBL attacked a USN destroyer.The US still didn't pay OBL enough attention.OBL decided to do something really, really attention-getting.9/11

that's some pretty inaccurate, farked up bullshiat.

"saddam got frisky".

kuwait was slant drilling iraqi land using israeli/saudi technology and assistance.

DataShade:You're missing the point. The IDF is already killing, every year, more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has ever killed Israeli citizens. They're doing it through starvation, internment, disproportionate response to protest, summary executions for violation of curfew or trespass of DMZ, and the indiscriminate use of military force in residential areas.

When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.

Telling someone who just watched his childhood friend and his entire family get vaporized by a US-made cruise missile that blowing up a bus is unethical because it's targeting civilians is the height of condescension and idiocy.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.

Amos Quito:MmmmBacon: Amos Quito: So no, the Brits were not entirely in favor of ethnically cleansing the area of for the sake of Jews, but that WAS the Zionist plan from the beginning, and given their endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians, appears to remain as the chief Zionist goal to this day.

Wait, what "endless expansion and persecution of the Palestinians"?

LOL! A purely rhetorical question, I presume.

MmmmBacon: If Israel wanted to take every single acre of land currently held by Palestinian groups, they could easily do so. Easily.

Yeah, and you could mug elementary school students for the lunch money - "easily". But you might not like the consequences.

MmmmBacon: And yet, they haven't, have they? In fact, if the evil Zionists were as hell-bent on destroying the Palestinians (as your overall post implies), they have had decades in which they could have done so, again rather easily, having vastly superior military might. Again, this hasn't happened.

Why is that?

Because the worldwide repercussions of such overt naked aggression would be devastating. Israel would immediately come under horrendous sanctions, penalties and possibly even attack from other Western nations. Worse still she would lose the support of Uncle Sugar-daddy, who would cut of her allowance and her access to toys, and then she WOULD be in trouble.

No, all Zionist aggression MUST be disguised as "defense". Israel must ALWAYS play the "victim card" so that her duped supporters will continue to support the suicidal Zionist regime.

MmmmBacon: Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong?

Anything is possible, I suppose.

MmmmBacon: Suggestion: Why not fly on over to Gaza and see about helping the Palestinians yourself? See if you can't talk Hamas into, oh, not launching rockets at Israel from playgrounds and the tops of apartment buildings? Feel free to report back and let us know how that went.

Me? Travel to Gaza? The Zionist version of the Warsaw Ghetto?

Thanks but no thanks.

Warsaw ghetto?

I don't recall the population growing, the standard of living increaseing, them electing a group who wanted to remove Christians from the surrounding country , them lobbing rockets into the surrounding country, but I am sure you have some good reasons to ignore all of that doesn't rest on hating Jews.

Insatiable Jesus:History speaks for itself. You can scream anti-semite all you like, but the common denominator in that list is not "Nazi" or "Cossack" or "Roman" or "Spaniard" or "Frenchman".

I have to say I laughed, because it's true. It truly makes you wonder what they keep doing to piss off the rest of the world. Oh yeah, open your eyes, they're doing it right now. Fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy, especially if you're already the "most hated" ethic group in the world.

Simmer down, be cool, smoke a doobie, and invite Hamas over for shabbat. I'm sure if you actually listened to what the other wants and ignore the rabble rousing, you might come up with a solution.

But, who am I kidding, keep hurling those rockets and bombs at each other. Your world sympathy bank since WW2 is drying up fast with, as it seems, only the US backing your silly little war anymore.

"135 B.CAntiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against Rome.

70 A.D.Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.

136 A.D.580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.

300 A.D.Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.

325 A.D.Constantine changed the celebration of Easter on the calendar so that it did not coincide with the Jewish Passover.

379 A.D.Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." He was called the Bishop with the Golden Tongue. St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.

395 A.D.St. Gregory of Nyssa in sermons and writings characterized Jews as assassins of the Prophets, companions of the Devil, a race of vipers, a Sanhedrin of Demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness.

415 A.D.Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OFALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.

717 A.D.Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.

1012 A.D.Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

1096 A.D.First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.

1144 A.D.First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)

1190 A.D.Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.Expulsion from France.

1348 A.D.JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.

1389 A.D.MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1598 A.D.Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)

1614 A.D.JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1858 A.D.THE MORTARA CASE: Catholics abduct a 7 yr. old Jewish child. A Catholic servant baptized a Jewish child when the child was seriously ill and the church of Rome seized the child. Outcry had no effect on the POPE.

1879 A.D.Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1894 A.D.ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.

1903 A.D.APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1920 A.D.Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1925 A.D.MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.

1933 A.D.HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.

1935 A.D.Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.

1938 A.D.Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

1967 A.D.SIX DAY WAR. Also new publication of Elders of Zion in Arabic.

1968 A.D.Emigration of last remaining Jews in Poland.

1969 A.D.JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.

1970 A.D.Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")

1980 A.D.Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.

1982 A.D.War in Lebanon begins after many years of terrorist attacks against the Jews in the Upper Galilee area from the vantage point of Beaufort Castle. Many Lebanese killed over long period of time, but was ignored by the News Media. War in Lebanon gets slanted coverage.

1983 A.D.Word from Christians in Israel that the PLO planned their next battleground to be Canada via Quebec. Documented proof that Russia planned in 1982 to attack Israel. "Link

You're doing it wrong.

What is it in your book that incites the minority within the Jewish population to alienate those around you? Why does it happen over and again to you?

Unless it's just a great big coincidence, that every time people feel like having a pogrom "Jew" jsut keeps getting drawn out of the hat.

Sick of the professional victim known as the Zionist, you are the most dangerous thing in the world to Jews, you will never let your people live in peace and will always be inciting them, and later hiding amongst them when the shiatrain falls.

Then why aren't you lecturing Arabs to try treating their minorities better?

Why are you blaming Moroccan Jews for their imputent decision to flee that hellhole?

Because, like it or not, Israel is ground zero for this discussion ... you solve the Israeli problem, you solve most of the unrest in the Middle East, which in one form or another, comes directly from the state of Israel and the unequal advantage it has in the region.

Point being: Why try so hard to prevent Iran from gaining a nuclear weapon when Israel has had one for years. What makes Israel the gifted child that can hold that power yet the world says everyone else can't? When you have a country that receives as much international aid and international arms dealings as Israel does, you're going to create unrest.

So, take the first step and invite them into the peace process. If after every Palestinian becomes a citizen and they are represented equally and they STILL cannot have peace, go for it, slaughter them all. But to blockade these people into the Gaza Strip and take MORE land in 1949 than you originally alotted is nothing more than the Israelis being greedy little farks because they had international arms backing in the wars.

Aka, the Golan Heights is NOT Israel, give it back to Syria. The Gaza Strip is NOT Israel, give it back to Egypt. Go back to your own prescribed borders from 1948 and stop trying to use national security as an excuse to keep increasing the land area of your country. Every time they do so, they piss people off.

Well, Amos, given that you have repeatedly posted arguments that Jews had the Holocaust coming to them, it's no surprise that you would downplay the massacres and repression that drove Jews from Arab countries into Israel.

Army Minister General Korechika Anami opposed any cessation of military action. His plan was for an all out final battle. His stance was that the US had no stomach to continue the fight and force the earlier unconditional surrender demands.

July 16 '45 Potsdam - The U.S. had already broken the Japaneese codes and were able to decypher communications. Truman therefore knew there was resistance to the Unconditional Surrender ultimatum. In what was in Truman's mind an effort to give the Japaneese a chance to "back down", the ultimatum was modified to surrender of the armed forces of Japan. This would give the Japaneese an open door to keep the Emperor and soften the terms. Instead, this backfired (as it always does -see the placation of Hitler by Chamberlain etc..). When this modified declaration was broadcast to japan, this softening of the terms was seen as a "promising development" by Suzuki and the rest who felt "for the enemy to say something like that means circumstances have arrisin that force them to end the war" (aka back down) "that is why they are no longer insisting on full unconditional surrender." They felt that in light of this weakening (much like hitler saw the weakness of the allies, much like Osama saw clintons failure to stand up to him*) as an opening and that we (the U.S) would not hold firm, but would yield.

In light of this perceived weakened stance, Prime Minister Suzuki -who as earlier shown had supported surrender- announced that his government would ignore the Potsdam declaration. In his declaration, he used the word "mokusatsu", meaning to kill with silent contempt.

That made the Hiroshima bomb inevitable.

Next question?

*history is full of such examples, if you don't like these two(2) pick any of dozens of others

ocschwar:If it's a civilian area, with civilian traffic, then it's not fortified and it's not mined,

You must be new here.

Then give Gaza the tax money Israel's been sitting on since 2006 and stop the blockade. The Palestinians will buy cars and they can soak up the mineblasts, *then* you can sit smugly at your computer and claim that Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives.

ocschwar:Nope, but his parents chose to move there to escape whatever unknown horrors they were going through. Stupid game, win stupid prizes. Move to Israel, get blown up by Palestinian bombs.

Stay in Morocco, watch as your 11 year old daughter is kidnapped, and know that she has been forcibly "married" and you will never see her again.

Welcome to the Jewish experience.

Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Again, the solution here is full citizenship of all Palestinians with equal representation to address their grievances. Anything short of that is unlikely to have any effect on peace at all.

Like I said, give the Palestinians the bomb to counteract the Israeli nuclear armament and sit back and watch what happens. My guess is that MAD might actually work, but if not, the result is an uninhabitable holy land for the next century. Both I am okay with.

ocschwar:When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.

If a civilian home comtains a store of those rockets then it is necessary and justifiable to blow it up and keep those rockets from being fired.

And by the way, for having "no payload", they managed to do this:

[imageshack.us image 400x600]

I've got an idea! Welcome the Palestinians into Israel as full citizens with governmental representation ... but no, that's too easy. When you try to shut a group out and don't give fair representation for their grievances, you get this.

Sorry, but this boy was one of the stupid prizes for playing this stupid "We're Jews, f*ck you" game to the Palestinians. If you're unable to give people who LIVE IN THE SAME GODDAMN AREA citizenship into your "state", then you deserve all the rockets, bombs, and f*ckery you get for being such ignorant, abhorrent, ass-hats.

ocschwar:It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.

The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.

Ummm, Jews were ousted because they stole a piece of extremely contested land and rightfully, a lot of countries were pretty damn pissed that the UN and Britain chose a winner ... I mean, again, people would be pretty pissed if the UN decided tomorrow that the state of California actually belongs to the Mexicans, sovereignty be damned of the people currently living there.

What should've been done in 1948, was the establishment of a state where Jews and Palestinians received equal representation and EVERYONE living there should've been allowed and freely given citizenship to the newly formed state.

INSTEAD, the Jews said (with the backing of the UN and Britain), this is our land now, get the f*ck out if you're not a Jew ... that tends to piss people off when three major religions have some seriously important and holy sites in that same area.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.

No, it started because the democratically elected government of Gaza started a rocket campaign, and sothe democratically elected government of Israel decided to deprive the democratically elected government of Gaza with the means to carry out the rocket campaign.

bostonguy:Completely BS argument. My little brother wants to join the U.S. army one day, so he would be a legitimate target now?

People who say something like "no Israelis are civilians because of the draft" are just twisting logic in indefensible ways to do whatever is necessary to justify what these terrorists are doing.

You're missing the point. The IDF is already killing, every year, more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has ever killed Israeli citizens. They're doing it through starvation, internment, disproportionate response to protest, summary executions for violation of curfew or trespass of DMZ, and the indiscriminate use of military force in residential areas.

When Hamas launches a bunch of homemade rockets with no payload, it's not justifiable or necessary to drop 750-pound warheads on civilian homes.

Telling someone who just watched his childhood friend and his entire family get vaporized by a US-made cruise missile that blowing up a bus is unethical because it's targeting civilians is the height of condescension and idiocy.

REMEMBER, Israel's blockade of Gaza, Israel's refusal of food or medicine to civilian populations, started because Israel disliked the results of a democratic election.

It sorta is. Read about the Gaza Strip or the massive Palestinian banishment in 1947, jack-hole.

The "massive" Palestinian banishment was more than matched by a Jewish banishment from Arab countries into Israel, if you recall.And it was less than 1% of the banishments that happened in the 40's. (India. Czechoslovakia. Poland. Kaliningrad. Et cetera).

And no, the Israeli government is not witholding food or medicine. Hamas is holding on to everything that comes in, so they can better control the population, but more than enough is coming in, from the Kerem Shalom crossing and through the tunnels.

liam76:When Hamas puts a rocket launcher in the middle of a neighborhood, they make it a legit target.

Gaza has open spaces they could launch rockets from, but they place the value of their fighters lives above their children.

It's like you people didn't learn anything from our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. When you bomb the shiat out of people, back them into a corner, cut off food and medicine, and, while they're still holding the bodies of the dead children, say, "Now, whose side are you on, mine or the terrorist who's shooting at me," they will always pick the terrorist, because you've proven you're worse than he is.

Tyrone Slothrop:That won't happen, because then the Arabs in the country will outnumber the Jews, and Israel will no longer be a "Jewish state." Of course, there's a name for when an ethnic minority rules over an ethnic majority.

Outnumber the jews by how much? IMO the fringes on both sides will cancel each other out in an election, leaving only the middle, which consists of people who only want to live their lives in peace.

Of course that means the end to the "jewish state," but good riddance to that.

aedude01:Not everyone serves in the military. If you have a religious objection to doing so, or a health reason you can be assigned to work for the government in a non-military role. Not to state the obvious, but kids can't serve in the military and therefore should be classified as 'civilians.'

They can't serve, but barring health or religious objection, they *will.* The Israelis have been blockading/bombing/raiding Gaza for five years based on the idea that, since it's a Hamas stronghold, if they don't attack now "eventually" they'll kill an Israeli citizen.

So ... by that logic, there are no civilian targets in Israel - except the tourists and the ill.

dr_blasto:Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.

You realize that what you're saying is the Palestinians have to produce a leader of the calibre seen only a few times a century or the Israeli government is going to genocide them, but since they haven't done that they get what they deserve?

Why isn't "the US and the international community should prevent Israel from committing genocide" an option? It worked in Serbia, no?

"I've really tried to understand the Israelis. I used to work on a farm in Israel. I speak Hebrew. I watch their news. All the time they talk about fear. How they have to run to their bunkers to hide from the rockets. How their children can't sleep because of the sirens. This is not a good way for them to live," said Khoudry, who now scrapes a living growing his own produce.

"We Palestinians don't talk about fear, we talk about death. Our rockets scare them; their rockets kill us. We have no bomb shelters, we have no sirens, we have nowhere we can take our children and keep them safe. They are scared. We are dying."

Last night as Anderson Cooper was standing in the middle of Gaza reporting on this, he interviewed a gent from Israel (who is a fellow at a US University) and the gent implied that the US needed to do more -- which I find funny.

For YEARS, folks have been complaining about the US trying to police the world. We finally have a President that takes a step back and is having the rest of the world try and foster a "calm" and folks are clamoring that the US isn't doing enough. We honestly cannot win. The rest of the world needs to own things and tell their neighbors hey stupid, "NIMBY" if they don't like what's going on. The US has enough to deal with without playing parent to two sides who don't want to behave like adults.

I am sorry for the innocent civilians on both sides who are just trying to live their lives, go to their jobs, school and be "normal" whilst all this drama is unfolding. I can't begin to pretend to understand all the intricacies of life in Israel, Palestine / Gaza, but I wish that the cowards that are fostering violence would quit hiding behind innocents and confront one another directly at a negotiating table instead of with bombs / rockets / guns / guns - it solves nothing and only causes loss of life.

To Tatsuma and anyone else living in the region, my thoughts and support go to you through this challenging time. Stay safe and I hope for a resolution that doesn't result in a lot of death and war.

MmmmBacon:Question: What would you have Israel do, then? Hamas is firing hundreds of rockets from Gaza onto civilian targets in Israel, and they are being fired from civilian areas. Should Israel just sit there and let those rockets continue to rain onto them? Because that's the only way Israel can avoid causing civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas is the cause of those civilian casualties in Gaza, by firing their rockets from civilian areas. If Hamas weren't cowards who are looking to create civilian casualties on both sides to back up their cause, they would fire the rockets from outside of cities and villages. But of course that wouldn't serve their purposes, would it?

Admit it, Hamas is wrong and Israel is only trying to defend itself.

There's almost nothing correct about your entire description.

Back in 2006, Israel and the US pressured the PNA into holding new elections because they thought they could achieve a sort of "regime change" and get the (then US-friendly) Fatah a full sweep of the Palestinian parliament; instead, Hamas won a significant majority. Israel and the US refused to recognize the election (and has since refused to allow any further elections). Fatah was given shipments of arms from the US government to defeat the democratically elected Palestinian government, and started a Palestinian civil war, which ended up with the West Bank controlled by US-friendly (but perceived corrupt) Palestinian politicians, with Hamas holed up in Gaza.

Israel has proceeded to use the pretext of violent unrest to block shipments of food and medicine to Gaza, launch military raids into civilian centers, and assassinate elected leaders.

Now Hamas is making desperate attempts to fight back and you're saying "well, they started it!" That's crazy-talk.

Happy Hours:HotWingConspiracy: dr_blasto: Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome.

So you think the Israelis would just sort of kick back and accept these peaceful people in to their society?

It wouldn't happen overnight. You can't expect peace to come just because Hamas and their supporters cease fire for one day. But an active campaign of peacefulness over a period of time would probably work well for them. Imagine Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel stops retaliating. Nobody gets killed. Yeah - I can dream.

It wouldn't happen at all, ever, for any reason. There is little in it for Israel, and they view that land as some kind of birthright.

DarnoKonrad:S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.

True, project out a hundred years and Israel may well be a very different looking nation. I think it really depends on how many Palestinians are left. If the more belligerent types on either side of the conflict get full control then there may not be any Palestinians. The more violence thrown by Palestinians toward Israelis, the more likely Israel is going to put more hawkish people in charge to deal with it.

Unless the Palestinians go full Martin Luther King or Ghandi and just sit down, there's only one outcome. That's their only real hope, but every attempt has been coopted by terrorists blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They don't seem to have the ability or will to purge those types out of their movements. They don't throw stones at the jackasses installing the rocket launchers, and until they do, this is going to end badly for them.

Remember when you were young, and fighting with your older brother, and then your mom or dad stopped you. You both said "He started it!" and pointed at each other. And then your parent said "I don't care who started it, stop it!"

Thunderpipes:Israel should start dropping big 2,000 pound bombs on Gaza. Continue until nothing is left. Putting rabid animals down is a good thing.

No, it isn't a good thing. It's horrible. Those are people living in Gaza, you know? People with children and parents, people just trying to live their lives. Unfortunately, some of those people are zealots and don't mind endangering their neighbors in the pursuit of their cause.

You are right, carpet-bombing Gaza would in fact work to stop the rockets from coming from there. But no sane human would ever do that. Ever.

dr_blasto:DarnoKonrad: dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.

There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.

S. Africans maintained such delusions for quite some time too. Israel as a minority ethnic theocracy is not sustainable.

Iran has sent military aid to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in Gaza that has been locked in a week-long war with Israel, parliament speaker Ali Larijani said. "We are proud to defend the people of Palestine and Hamas ... and that our assistance to them has been both financial and military," he said without elaborating, in remarks reported by parliament's website, ICANA.ir.

Propaganda for domestic consumption. If Iran were truly interested in "aiding" their erstwhile allies in Gaza they would simply instruct their northern proxy--Hezbollah--to unleash it's substantially more capable arsenal against Israel.

DarnoKonrad:dr_blasto: When the US moved west, pushing the native people of the time further and further away from their homelands, we fought wars with them for years and years-both sides killing civilians, both sides retailiating. The settlers and US military has the numbers and had the firepower. Eventually we've gotten to where we are today. I suspect the same will happen in Israel, hopefully it doesn't get as bad as our situation-near extermination of whole regions worth of people.

The one real distinction is population. Disease killed off most Native Americans and they got absorbed into our growing and hegemonic culture. Israel is the exact opposite. They're losing the demographic and population war and culturally they're absorbing a lot more from the Palestinians than visa versa.

There are still many living in squalor on reservations-not entirely absorbed. To this day, violent death and suicide are still primary killers; back in the original conflicts, disease was created both through contact and inadvertent as well as through actual germ warfare perpetrated by European settlers. Israel is a Jewish state; as such, to maintain that they will need to ensure that non-Jew Israelis are either a minority or have a limited say in government. I don't think that assimilation would be accepted by either side.

Population densities at the time were very different for our conflicts in the US. North America and Israel are not the same geographically, sure. But the trajectory of the conflicts and end results will likely be very similar and that's bad for the Palestinians, but seems unavoidable if you look at it through the looking glass of history across the planet.

cman:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

Some man breaks into your house, you open up on him with a machine gun, the bullets shred him to paste, overpenetrate, and kill people sleeping in the house across the street, you're going to be charged for manslaughter.

MmmmBacon:I don't condone it, but Israel really needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and deal with Hamas - and through their example, the rest of their enemies - or if they are just going to forestall the endgame for another few months or at best years. They can fire missiles at Hamas, they can even invade Gaza, but that won't do anything but help Hamas' recruitment.

The only answer that solves the problem is to depopulate Gaza in its entirety. Drive the populous there out, into Egypt, and not allow them to return. Ever. Carpet-bomb every Gazan city and village into rubble once the population has been pushed out, leave the land uninhabitable. Then Israel needs to tell the world "Anyone else who attacks our nation through terrorism or conventional means gets the same treatment".

It's horrible, it's barbaric, it's patently wrong, and it is the only way Israel will know peace as a nation.

Jesus wept.

Wait, no, you're right, that's what happened in Ireland and South Africa and the US south during desegregation... it's the only way.

The only way to win this war is to make it so costly that the arabs decide to cease and desist on their own. America has grown too decidedly feminine, fat and comfortable to possess the mental fortitude necessary to accomplish this. Israel sees this, and knows that it is pretty much on their own. In fact, it sees that Obama is now going to underwrite the purchase of over $100 million in new weapons for Hamas. Is it any wonder that Israel doesn't want a cease fire? A cease fire is only a chance for Hamas to purchase and position new weaponry at their leisure.

meep3d:DarnoKonrad: meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

and that has been the problem. there is currently NO solution which is agreeable to both side.the unilateral WALL stopped the suicide attacks. (certainly all of the massive ones)

Uncle Tractor:meep3d: Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.

Hamas wants Israel gone. Its in their charter. They dont want one Jew left there.

DarnoKonrad:meep3d: Bear in mind the bodycount would be zero on both sides if it were not for the rocket attacks. Zionism

You can read about 19th century colonization all day long, here you can see it in action.

What's your solution then, something that would be acceptable to both sides and actually realistic to implement? Or short term, what should Israel do about the constant rain of rockets? As I pointed out earlier with the example of the 2005 Gaza withdrawal unilateral land concessions don't appear to work.

meep3d:Currently Hamas' approach is the worst one possible for both peace and the Palestinians.

I don't think Hamas wants peace. I think Hamas wants another Cast Lead. They trolled Israel with those stupid rockets and now it looks like they're getting exactly what they want; Israel going apeshiat on Gaza while the world watches. The palestinian civilians, as always, are the real victims.

namatad:Uchiha_Cycliste: Palestinians lived in the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories well before Israel existed. That IS their country.

Except that Jews live on that land before it was "their" land.But go ahead and pretend that the land hasnt changed hands a billion times over the last 20,000 years.If you are going to pick an arbitrary date to define the "legitimate" owners of the land, dont expect others to not pick another date.

There is no objective way to decide what date to pick. One date favors one group, another date favors the other.

1) Give the land back to the Romans!!2) Give the land back to the Brits!!

Both of those solutions are equally rational to giving the land to the jews or the palestinians.So now you have 4 different claims which could be argued.

Unless you are going to go with who was there "longest."Because once you go there, an acceptable response is "who is there now" has more rights than longest.

I wont be happy until the Canaanites have their land back and the walls of Jericho are rebuilt by those damn Jews

AverageAmericanGuy:namatad: meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

It is "funny" how the deep, systemic hate for the jews permeates most of the world.The problem with "legitimate grievances" is that in the end, all countries exist on the backs of the original inhabitants. Such to be on the losing side of a war. You typically lose your land and rights.

While we might want to live in a world where that is true, the reality is that that is what we got.What percentage of Amerikans are willing to give the US back to the natives?Why not? We stole it from them.

And yet, people continue to make the argument that "THIS IS DIFFERENT".Sure, it is different because it is happening today and it is the EVIL JEWS doing it.

Counter position, how many countries which are current controled by muslims, would like their country back and the muslims gone? Malaysia? Indonesia?

How are these different? Other than they happened 7-800 years ago?Are only new land grabs bad? Really?Are we only going to "right" recent wrongs?

What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.NVM

I think it probably has more to do with failing to give the Palestinians true citizenship and power within the country they are rapidly becoming the majority in and instead sticking them all into a tiny sliver of land from which they have no possible escape.

Nah, it must just be that people hate the evil Jews.

The Palestinians had a country until they tried to have a revolution inside that country. If I were Israeli leadership I believe I would have to demonstrate what actual ethnic cleansing looks like in Gaza then ask WB if they are ready to sign a treaty. The world would whine for a bit but the world whines a bit whenefer Israel gets fed up with constant attacks and does anything to stop it so they might as well take the hit all at once and be done with it. Or we can continue on this merry go round of death ad infinitum.

namatad:What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.NVM

The Kurds have the unfortunate reality of existing as either a significant minority or outright plurality within the borders of several different nations; in so doing, they've created a mutual, vested interest in several of the region's major powers (Iran, Turkey, Syria and formerly Iraq) of keeping them stateless and disenfranchised. Palestinians have certainly been suppressed by their Arab brethren (see Black October, al Assad's father slaughter of the Muslim Brotherhood) but they also serve a useful purpose to most of the region's governments: a source of distraction. They're the reverse of the Kurds, whereby everyone wants to use them a proxy rather than fearing to do so.

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said the bus explosion in Tel Aviv "is a natural result for the Israeli aggression" in Gaza.

"Israeli, by killing the Palestinian civilians, wanted these consequences and this is what we have warned from," Barhoum said. "If the Israel continues its aggression then all the optioned are opened. "

namatad:meep3d: So when terrorists attack normal western countries (USA, UK, Spain, etc.), despite legitimate grievances it is never viewed as acceptable resistance, yet when the Palestinians do it (daily for years and years) it's somehow acceptable?

It is "funny" how the deep, systemic hate for the jews permeates most of the world.The problem with "legitimate grievances" is that in the end, all countries exist on the backs of the original inhabitants. Such to be on the losing side of a war. You typically lose your land and rights.

While we might want to live in a world where that is true, the reality is that that is what we got.What percentage of Amerikans are willing to give the US back to the natives?Why not? We stole it from them.

And yet, people continue to make the argument that "THIS IS DIFFERENT".Sure, it is different because it is happening today and it is the EVIL JEWS doing it.

Counter position, how many countries which are current controled by muslims, would like their country back and the muslims gone? Malaysia? Indonesia?

How are these different? Other than they happened 7-800 years ago?Are only new land grabs bad? Really?Are we only going to "right" recent wrongs?

What about the kurds? They should get a homeland and be free of turkey,iraq, iran, what not. Right?They are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. Why are we concerned about such a small number of people in Gaza?

Oh wait, the evil jews again.NVM

I think it probably has more to do with failing to give the Palestinians true citizenship and power within the country they are rapidly becoming the majority in and instead sticking them all into a tiny sliver of land from which they have no possible escape.

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

It's Okay as Long as Israelis do it, because Israelis classify everyone as enemies, right?Little kid down the street with the mean mug? The enemy.Little old lady who's been moved from her home several times to make room for more Israeli settlers who have no ties to the region except they're members of the ruling theocracy? Collaborator human shield

That unarmed USN ship flying a US flag and just listening to what was going on? Target practice.

cman:GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

'while unfortunate....''While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

Knowing the possibility that Israel missiles aren't clever enough to really target individuals, despite what some Internet Expert believe, missiles were fired HOPING it would find its supposed target and well, if other people got killed, tough shiat, it's not like we can control something like a freakin' missile, can we?

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

"Actively" is such a stupid, meaningless distinction in this case, because the only way you can "not actively target civilians" when you launch missiles at a city is if you literally refuse to even acknowledge that other races have civilians.

meep3d:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Why should the bodycount be symmetric? If it was not for the rockets and suicide bombings the total combined bodycount would be zero. Just because Israel is better at hitting their targets than the Palestinians does not make them worse.

It is a governments duty to stop terrorist attacks on its civilians. What do you suggest Israel do? The fact that the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza caused an increase in attacks suggests that concessions wont work, and the last remaining one (lifting the blockade) would almost certainly not cause a dip in the number of attacks - giving Hamas the ability to re-arm unimpeded would be a recipe for disaster.

And don't talk about 'occupation', Gaza is not occupied, don't talk about concessions as as I said the 2005 withdrawal was a huge one and the Palestinians gave no reciprocal actions. The settlements are on the West Bank, so what do Hamas actually want? Why are they doing this? How are Israel meant to end this without violence (which seems to be the only thing that actually works)?

How much do you want to bet that Suede head is an American with an Obama/Biden sticker on their bumper? There is only one thing that pisses me off the most about how Americans have reacted to this situation: ultrapartisanship. Many on the left are hitting the right attacking them and mocking them for supporting Israel but say nothing when Obama says "Its all good, go ahead Israel".

Say whatever the fark you want about Israel, at least they are not actively targeting civilians

How is a terrorist attack news flash abuse?

Is a bombing in the Middle East, much less Israel, really news anymore?

Exactly.

This thing happens daily. If the International Space Station blew up, that is a good use of a newsflash. If Mount St Hellen erupts, that is a good use of a newsflash. If a gunman opens up at the Capital Building, that is a newsflash. Daily events, not so much.

This is the excuse the IDF was waiting for to launch their ground offensive. You'll seen Israeli tanks in Gaza by the weekend, I guarantee it.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm very much hoping that this is as you say a non-event and Israel will continue to be restrained. My guess is they won't and this is the sort of incident that touches off a much larger response.

The whole situation is so sad and I really don't want WWIII to start on my favorite holiday :/

Israel has sent military into Gaza in the past and it didnt start WWIII

cman:GungFu: cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

'while unfortunate....''While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

GungFu:cman: Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

But Israel didnt target them. This was a targeted attack. Those civilian deaths, while unfortunate, were not done on purpose. Intent, man, you have to factor in intent. Some man breaks in your house at night, you shoot him dead, should you be charged with murder? Hell no. Intent

'while unfortunate....''While unfortunate, were not done on purpose...'

Nah, not getting it.

The bus was the target, dipshiat! It's just unfortunate some Jews were inside it. Stupid Jews.

Israel was targeting militants. They were not targeting civilians. This was an attack on civilians.

yousaywut:Suede head: Meanwhile, well over a hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bombing and shelling, including many children. Just bear that in mind before you start foaming at the mouth.

Sux to start a shooting war you can't win. But hey the PR is really good when you duck behind the girn next door so there is that.