Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.

The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.

Is the tonwang of the namcho shitro sufficient, or are you mentioning a specific shitro empowerment?

In ChNN's system Dzogchen transmission is all you need, and then the lung and khrid for a given deity.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Lhasa wrote:Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?

If the lama is instructing you to gain clarification from a textual source the lama probably considers that sufficient.

Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical

How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?

Geoffrey Samuel in his book Introducing Tibetan Buddhism (page 71) puts it this way:

Since Tantric practice is always performed within a specific lineage of transmission that authorizes the practice.....the practicioner is niot invoking Avalokiteśvara in general but a specific from of Avalokiteśvara with whom he or she has established a bond through the ritual empowerment

Is this why one who receives empowerment form kagyu shouldn't practice the sakya sadhana?
It seems very odd since both came from naropa....?

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

heart wrote:
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.

Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus

In my own case, one of my teachers was giving teachings on the Shitro/Bardo from Karma Lingpa. I asked if the Shitro from the Nyingma Kahma qualified me for those teachings. He said no, because the NK Shitro only had Maha and Anu yoga, where as the Karma Lingpa Shitro had an Ati section, which were the source of the teachings he was giving. Just saying,...

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche