Posted
by
timothy
on Friday March 26, 2010 @04:11AM
from the billion-here-a-billion-there dept.

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Most people have already heard western media reactions to Google leaving China proper and redirecting search traffic to its Hong Kong branch, but ChinaSMACK has translated comments from average Chinese internet users so that non-Chinese can understand how the Chinese public feels. While many of them are supportive of the government on some level, they were able to obtain many comments by those critical of the government before they could be 'harmonized' (deleted) and translated those as well. The deleted comments often complain about the wumao (50 cent party), government employees who are paid 50 cents RMB per post supporting the government, and worry that the Chinese Internet will become a Chinese LAN."

It's fine to get reports of what's going on inside China from bloggers and news sources that have a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

If all you are ever fed is McDonald's and no one ever tells you about anything else, your view of food is severely limited. This works both ways in the case of China.

Opinion about the government is not a singular YES/NO boolean flag. It's entirely possible that the Chinese people generally likes the economic progress the government has brought, but doesn't like the censorship so much.

As hard as it may seem to grasp this concept, there are people who hold their beliefs very closely yet hold beliefs that are diametrically opposed to you.

Take the U.S. as a prime example. For what many Europeans take as incomprehensible, the nearly violent antipathy of many Americans towards national health care, these Americans feel strongly that it is in their (and their country's) best interest to not have such a system.

In China, the censorship is perhaps seen as a good thing, to "protect the children" or other public policy reason. With only the Western "freedom is everything" cultural viewpoint fed to us, how can we really form a valid opinion either way?

What you're missing is the "wrong" and "right" of the situation. Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong, in addition to being vulgar and uncivilized. Heck, there are people who call the results of legitimate elections "wrong" because the people voted the "incorrect" way. I wish I was kidding.

Although I am happy to see yet another thread about a totally unrelated subject get turned into the standard "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid" argument though.

And more than that, people are offended if other people come telling them how to do things and try to spoon-fed their beliefs and ways. Why do you think religion has caused so much wars and trouble? Forcing something down someones throat never ends up well.

How would USA feel if Russia and their people were to come in and try to change American culture more towards them? Or China or even the French. You wouldn't like it, would you? The same goes both ways.

The problem is Manifest Destiny [wikipedia.org]. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles.

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours. And yes, I was in the military, as was my father, so I'm not an isolationist or pacifist. I want us to have a strong defense, but the American delusion of Manifest Destiny undermines it.

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours.

I find it highly encouraging that more and more US citizens are waking up to that fact. And assuming strict adherence to your constitution, I would actually quite welcome your form of government. Honestly, if you guys manage to get your act back together, there wouldn't be any need to enforce it on others anyway. Most would be striving to emulate you guys merely for the prosperity and genuine individual liberty it brings. Until then though, don't loose hope and see if you can inspire a few more of your

The problem is Manifest Destiny. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bible

Tradtionally, Manifest Destiny *did* mean spreading "America" all across the continent of North America, but it doesn't take too much looking to see that the concept has evolved to mean spreading "Americanism" to the entire globe. And yes, it is a form of Colonialism, which Europe, the Ottoman Empire, the Romans and virtually every "superpower" thoughout history was known for. The difference is that now many Americans want to spread their form of American Christianism to other countries and are content to

Woodrow Wilson *was* a Christian, specifically a Presbyterian [adherents.com]. The KKK is founded on their own twisted ideas about Christianity, and is a de facto Christian only organization. Specifically, the group supports Protestant Christianity [wikipedia.org]. Even the "burning cross" they have so tenderly affixed to the front yards of many innocent blacks, is a Christian symbol. They hate jews, atheists, blacks, Catholics and everyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their savior. If you

from circa 1400s to 1900s. While the Europeans are correct that Bush did dumb stuff, at least he was only there for 8 years. Europeans did similar suppressive acts for about 500 years. It's a bit hypocritcal. Like a telling people, "Though shalt not steal," when you have several mansions filled with stolen goods (literally)

I agree with your first sentence, but your second one not so much. It is a very blanket statement to say that, since morals are not universal, but personal. Some things can pretty much be agreed upon as immoral: murder (note, not simply killing); rape; abuse of power etc. but everything else is entirely based upon circumstance. If you are brought up in a culture where personal possession is meaningless for example, then stealing cannot be considered immoral.

Regardless, I'm not sure that many Americans do think that universal health care would be a bad thing, they just don't want to fund it through their taxes, so don't support it. They likely see it as something along the lines of "if people want health care, they should work to pay for it". It is a very capitalist model, but not necessarily immoral. I myself don't agree with it, and see it as pure selfishness pretty much, but I am a product of my surroundings as well, and having been brought up by fairly liberal parents in the UK (where we have universal heath care) it is almost inevitable that I feel the way I do.

The legitimacy of voting thing; yeah, that's pretty much wrong if you accept democracy as good, but I'm sure that not everyone agrees. It definitely isn't FAIR for hereditary rule etc, but I'm sure there are those that think it's better regardless of the fairness.

as for "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid". Yeah, we pretty much do, but then we are coming from a background in monarchy (true monarchy I mean, not like the monarchy in the UK) where the "ruling class" had ultimate power, which was partially tied to the church. Therefore we tend to strongly believe in a secular society, and one where the distribution of power is more even. America seems to have lost some of that by being free by default.

Regardless, I'm not sure that many Americans do think that universal health care would be a bad thing, they just don't want to fund it through their taxes, so don't support it. They likely see it as something along the lines of "if people want health care, they should work to pay for it". It is a very capitalist model, but not necessarily immoral.

There are also a fair number of Americans, like me, who don't have any problem with the idea of state-provided healthcare, but don't want the federal government to provide it. From a legalistic perspective, the federal government has no constitutional authority to provide healthcare, which means that the courts really shouldn't allow them to do it, but the 50 states absolutely could. From a practical perspective, we both have deep mistrust of our federal government's ability to manage the system well, and

You started off so balanced and well-meaning and ended up a total hypocrite.

as for "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid". Yeah, we pretty much do,

Well maybe Americans consider Europeans self-righteous, moral snobs, but that's of no consequence when you are one.

Remember many Americans are cast-offs from the voluminous past failures of Europe. Being a cast-off, it's not hard to have your morals and values switch around a bit. Americans value freedom, family, god, and local community over national community for this reason. National community failed a great many of us.

Some things can pretty much be agreed upon as immoral: murder (note, not simply killing); rape; abuse of power etc. but everything else is entirely based upon circumstance. If you are brought up in a culture where personal possession is meaningless for example, then stealing cannot be considered immoral.

There has been - and still are - cultures where rape and murder (by today's standards; I'm assuming you didn't intend to invoke the tautology "unlawful killing is unlawful") were legal in some circumstances

YAY relative morality!
But a vital factor in relativity is that shit has to have a reference. So if someone grew up and exists in a society where personal possession is meaningless, then stealing won't be considered immoral TO HIM. It can still be considered immoral to everyone else. And people won't agree on basic morality, which is what we have going on in this thread. This also jives with history. It doesn't make the moral questions meaningless, but it does make it more complicated. What? You thought thi

Problems with the NHS are hyped-up way over what they are in reality. I have lived and been treated in 5 countries including the UK, the US and Canada. In the UK you get prioritised by need. If you have a life-threatening problem, you get operated on immediately, no questions asked. If you want a knee-replacement that's not urgent, you need to wait (and it's getting shorter). If you don't want to wait that long, you can choose from a variety of options including paying for the procedure privately or by havi

Here in Oz queue jumping via cash or private insurance is illegal, there is one queue for everyone and in my experience it's usually a short one. You can pick your own doctor (often without an appointment), and get as many second opinions as you like.

Private insurance or cash is for "luxuries" like first dibs on a private room, fake tits, hair transplants, etc. The most obvious "hole" is that dentistry is not covered by UHC. Some doctors charge marginally above the schedule price but it's not worth getti

A family on $100,000/yr pays a $1500/yr levy on their tax and is gaurenteed never to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, I hear it costs almost 10X as much to fully insure a family in the US.

Probably $500-$1000 a month doesn't seem out of line for the US for an entire family if paid completely by the family and not part of a larger group. (I'm paying as a single payer for my sister and she gets fair coverage for $80/month with a moderately high deductible)

Yes, well, that whole "divine right" thing was a while ago and while in places there's essentially a state religion, the Church of England hasn't passed any legislature in a while and everyone involved is better off for it. They've left that whole governance thing strictly to the secular world.
As opposed to the USA where some of the churches are foaming at the mouth to put a preacher in the white house.

Attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Your attitudes are come a bit from yourself, and a great deal from the average of attitudes expressed by people around you. When expressions of negative attitudes to government are discouraged and suppressed, and positive ones rewarded (this 50 cent party thing - not something exclusive to China, I'm sure), it will drag up everyone, especially those who like to think that they arrive at their attitudes on their own.It happens and has happened in much worse places than China (East Germany, Burma). Especially if you are a well-off Chinese, it makes a lot of sense to just "not be interested in politics" and defend the government.

Luckily, you have the freedom to examine the societal benefits and problems that the "freedom is everything" culture brings with it, while at the same time examining the parallel consequences of a society where the availability of information is centrally controlled.

You also have enough intellectual freedom to know that your prejudices are at least partially due to acculturation.

So, to answer your question - yes, you are in a position to form an informed, and potentially valid opinion. You are also in a position to form an opinion about the ability of a person with only access to the Chinese media and Internet to do so.

Let's get real. If freedom was everything, the US government (especially federal) would be 10 times smaller, measured in both revenue and power over the people, than it is today.

To be clear, we are talking about the most expensive, most powerful government AND world empire (with military bases in some 150 countries) in history. Considering that freedom is more or less proportional to the size of government (measured both in revenue and power over the peo

economic progress like lead paint on children's toys, poisonous pet food, cheap costume jewelry for teenagers made from cadmium which is a carcinogen, and chinese electronics that are so poorly made that are absolutely shameful, i wonder how much crap gets in that is really bad or poisonous for you that has slipped in without its toxic ingredients being discovered, if you ask me i would embargo chinese made products and have everything with a "made in china" sticker on it sent to a land fill and buried. and

Don't be silly. The Chinese actually have a very advanced manufacturing sector. There is nothing inherently wrong with Chinese products, only in the level of quality western companies are usually willing to pay for.

The real problem is the huge discrepancy in currency and living wages between the USA and China.

The view I collected from most Chinese I know (which might be slanted since I met most of them in the west) is that they are willing to put up with censorship and all that crap as long as the party keeps providing economic growth. And this is true for most countries, U.S. included, most people won't want to change the system even if it's full of shit, while they have a decent job and can provide for their families.
That was why Clinton was always so popular (even if he was one of those responsible for the B

>>But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

Indeed. My wife (who is Chinese) was born and raised in Hong Kong, and so has no love for mainland China. Probably had something to do with her grandpa getting tortured during the cultural revolution...

She refuses to visit mainland China, so I went by myself. People there are actually very happy with their government, in a sort of "Yeah it's a dictatorship but everything is moving in the right direction" way. They actually like that shit gets done there. Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down. And then the interstate is done... in a tenth of the time it would take in America. They actually mocked our gridlock in America.

Anyhow, her aunt and uncle still live in China, and recently moved to mainland China. They're Christian missionaries... oh wait, that's illegal... they're Christians, and they do charity work. If anyone would hate China, it'd be them - father tortured, they could possibly be executed for being Christian... and they approve of the government. Not just "oh well, it's better than Zimbabwe", but they actually think the country is doing well, and will do even better in the future. Sure, there's a few problems, they say, but they'll be fixed in the future.

While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government.

We don't know for sure either way, but all 3 accounts of foreign tourists in NK that I've read myself mention the bit where, if their guide was to be away / not looking, the braver locals would jump at the opportunity to start a conversation, and most questions would be of the kind "so what life really is like in SK / USA / elsewhere?" (with the implication that it surely must be better).

>>>Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down. And then the interstate is done...

That used to be true in America too, but then in the 1970s the villagers started protesting because they didn't want their homes razed. It's why Baltimore's I-95 does not connect to I-83 or I-70 (it was supposed to). It's why Washington's I-66 does not run straight-through and connect to I-95 (it was supposed to). It's also why I-95 stops in Philadelph

Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down.

Except when you live in the village getting in the way of the interstate and the government offers you a the monetary equivalent of "Cry me a river" and bulldozes your house and any form of protest is met with imprisonment.

It's easy to get shit done when you don't have to listen to the people you're doing it for.

While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government.

It would seem that the old saying "Ignorance is bliss" does appear to be stand.

This is basically true. I live in China and I have asked my co-workers and several classes of students about it. The adults aren't really surprised by any of it, but that might be a little different among the tech crowd. Some of my students were concerned about Google leaving, as most of them do use Google and prefer it. However, most said they would just use Baidu.

Although they may dislike how things worked out, or disagree with the government's actions, the overall legitimacy of the government is rarely called into question. People are more interested in fixing the problems in their government. The basic reason is that they think the only way to prosper as a country is to work together, like China is a big family including the government, and this mindset is deeply set in many people. It's not all "government vs. the people" everywhere in the world. There are a few people who are pro-democracy advocates, but they are typically pro-everything-western Christians. Most people I have talked to will remark that democracy isn't appropriate for China, and that it is fundamentally different from western countries.

The fact is that people aren't too concerned about issues like this over here. They are too busy living their lives, and the whole Web as they know it is basically different. They don't use YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Blogger, or any of the normal sites. Only around 1% use Wikipedia. It's a totally different game here, where the number of QQ users is larger than the entire U.S. population.

After Google moved to Hong Kong, a teacher asked me about it, and I explained it to her. Then I told her that they moved because the mainland and Hong Kong have different laws. She replied back playfully with, "... maybe. Maybe they do," pretending to look a little nervous, and then laughing playfully. It's not all evil empire stuff over here. People roll their eyes at a lot of it, and everyone knows that the government can't control so much. There are too many people, so it's just like controlled chaos, with aspirations of harmony.

In some ways it's freer than the U.S. because there are so few people to enforce the laws or keep things in check. If a cop is going too slow, cars will honk their horns obnoxiously at him, swerve around him into the oncoming lane to pass him up, and generally just treat him like another asshole on the road. In the U.S., the cops are on your ass just for going through a yellow light too late. The American public is nothing for authorities to fear, but the Chinese public is much bigger and more powerful. In many ways it's difficult to imagine a government like the U.S. has, able to maintain the peace with 1.3 billion people.

In many ways it's difficult to imagine a government like the U.S. has, able to maintain the peace with 1.3 billion people.

I think its a prosperity issue. That cop on the road in china is as likely to take a bribe to go away as he is to actually ticket or arrest someone. Get the country to the point where bribery is no longer a practical necessity and I think you'll see government enforcement scale quite well to 1+ billion people.

Get the country to the point where bribery is no longer a practical necessity and I think you'll see government enforcement scale quite well to 1+ billion people.

Agreed. The notion that government enforcement doesn't scale is just silly. China may not have bothered to scale it, but it scales up just fine, as long as there's enough wealth to pay a significant portion of the population to be the enforcers.

That reminds me of something a Chinese friend of mine said once. He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability. He said people loath corrupt party officials and the like and there is real pressure for reform in that area, but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

That, and a real fear that democracy would lead to instability and even the possibility of civil war, means (according to one affluent, western educated Chinese) that the push for democracy within China is far less than a Westerner might suppose.

Google it for yourself. Basically, as long as most things go well for most people in China, the government will be seen as legitimate.
If, say, the economic expansion stops, or there is a recession, people will start to question the legitimacy of their rulers. Democracy allows that questioning to happen without a civil war.

He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability.... but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

Your friend hit the nail on the head there. In theory, Democracy should be all about accountability: prove you did a good job or get kicked out. Instead what we see (especially in young democracies) is that corruption is still there, but in a slightly different form than before.

Honestly, I don't think democracy is the be-all end-all of governance. A very good step in the right direction for China might be to find a way to hold their officials accountable to the people in some way.

I can concur with your comment. When people here complains about why the government here move so slowly, have so much red tap and papers and form and procedures, I tell them this is part of the price we have to pay for our democracy. We need to keep track of every single correspondence and paper trail so that when it came under question, government can cover that you-know-what. They probably don't need that in China. Of course there are a lot of cons about that.

"It's fine to get reports of what's going on inside China from bloggers and news sources that have a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions."

I am more fascinated by the reaction of first-generation Chinese immigrants many of them continue to be nationalistic after decades of immigration. Even my Taiwanese co-workers have much milder view of the mainland government that y

Of course they are. They learned from the USA that if you keep the populace fat-dumb-and happy by getting them TV then they are "happy" Most americans are very happy with losing most of their freedoms if it makes them think they are safer and entertained....

I'm not trolling, this is a big reason why the government in China gave everyone a huge voucher to go and buy a TV and other entertainment options. If people are given time to think, they will get pissed about what they no longer have. take their t

You know it's weird. I'm actually in Japan right now, living in a dorm with a lot of Chinese foreign students. One of them told me how his father was actually one of the students at Tiananmen Square, and after the incident burned a book filled with writings of his classmates so that the government wouldn't find it and record his previous affiliations on his resume.

This guy also tells me how shocked he was after he came to Japan and was finally able to see the Tiananmen videos on Youtube (blocked in China of course), and how it's changed his views of his government. According to him, a lot of Chinese youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

He told me he himself used to like his life in China, but now that he's realized the truth about his government, he'd prefer not to go back to China after his study period in Japan is over.

Not entirely on-topic, and mod me down if you must, but I just thought it was interesting how this Chinese guy has become disconnected from his country and his own people, who seem to be influenced so heavily by their government.

He's also a kid though. Kids tend to be a lot more easy to radicalize because they have don't have as many roots put down yet nor have they been tempered with much in the way of life experiences. Let him marry a nice chinese girl and then he's going to have to start thinking about what its like to raise kids in a country without any family nearby. Chances are he'll also have to raise his family in a mostly foreign culture. Obviously plenty of Chinese people have decided that all that was worth it for the freedom and opportunities available outside of China. But its still a hard decision to make, and plenty of Chinese have decide to go back instead - especially with the growing prosperity back home.

According to him, a lot of Chinese youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

Ah, yeah, we see the same thing in the U.S., even though we have more access to alternative viewpoints. Just replace "government" with "party". Doesn't matter which party, they both do it.

Nothing makes me want to puke more than people repeating left/right talking points as if the idea just came to them.

Your point is flawed. The Kent state incident is NOT banned on Youtube or anywhere in the web. The government also is not on a mission to track down people who have affiliations with students at the Kent state incident. Not to mention when something like that happens in the USA, the country and government officials are deeply embarrassed by such events which are wildly publicized.

Your point is flawed. The Kent state incident is NOT banned on Youtube or anywhere in the web.

My point has nothing to do with whether or not Kent State videos are banned or are on yutube. My point has to do with that by substituting any country name and event it is possible to construct a reasonable statement that highlights governmental control by that country. In the case of the USA, I suggest you read up on McCarthyism.

If that's not enough, I'm an American, and I was taught about the Kent State massacre in history classes. And no, the presentation of the incident was not blindly supportive of the military. Argument fail.

ChinaSMACK is a shit-stirring blog that posts only the most sensational crap that they can find. Their favorite topic is driving a wedge between "Chinese" and "foreigners". Extreme opinions from random internet jerkwads are presented as representative of opinion. It's like browsing slashdot at -1 and translating the posts into Chinese - you start with crap, you end up with crap. The only fun part of the site is watching P.C. westerners get offended in the English comments, and then calling them racists

ChinaSMACK is a shit-stirring blog that posts only the most sensational crap that they can find.

For those of us who do not have perfect fluency in Chinese--which is what you need if you're going to understand all the in-jokes--ChinaSMACK is a fucking godsend. It's one of the few places on the 'net where you can get at least a glimpse into the inner workings of the brains of Chinese youth.

No one is stopping you from starting your own website, you know. Make sure you not only translate everything, but also

I was in a hot tube with a Chinese national and she was sooooooo convinced that Taiwan is "owned" by China and she basically parroted the party line down to every illogical point. She was fresh off the boat, I would like to see her opinion after she gets to see an unfiltered reality, without paid fake people telling her a fake reality. The Chinese government even tracks its own dissidents, and plants undercover agents inside of the groups while out of country! It's like they live in the matrix! Time to unplug meatbags, don't fear the truth!

Interesting. I was in bed with this Chineses national, wearing nothing but a banana hammock, and she told me how she loves China. She began arguing quite unlogically that freedom isn't everything and that she likes that the government is taking care that she only reads what's important. She argued that their slashdot doesn't have any trolls and everyone is insightful or interesting.

After that we began to talk about free software and things just got out of hands. Time to taste the freedom! I told her while I

If she's that brainwashed I'm not sure she can easily change her opinion.

A while back, there was a Slashdot story about a Debian developer quitting because Debian decided to include a locale option for Taiwan. I think that developer lived outside of China so wasn't subjected to censorship anymore...I think he was living in Australia. In any case, a single option buried amongst hundreds that pissed him enough to make him quit. Then there was a slashdot poster that got upset/defensive at how the discussions a

Interesting. I was in a hammock with a Chinese national and a banana and she said she loves China because everyone there uses Gnome instead of KDE. I said that freedom was everything which is why I use a Mac and an iPhone. She called me a stupid Europig and left. You just can't reason with those people. They're all brainwashed.

China's instructions on reporting on Google [washingtonpost.com]
All chief editors and managers:
Google has officially announced its withdrawal from the China market. This is a high-impact incident. It has triggered netizens' discussions which are not limited to a commercial level. Therefore please pay strict attention to the following content requirements during this period:
A. News section:
1. Only use Central Government main media (website) content; do not use content from other sources.
2. Reposting must not change tit

Wouldn't that be more something like this?
This is how we do it, when we do it
Like we just wanna tear the club up
We do it like there ain't nothin' to it
The way we do it, now everybody put your fuckin' hands up!
Lets Go!

Strange, because the Chinese I've studied with did mix up l and r, or at least had big trouble producing a tapped r in such a way that it could be distinguished from l. Also they had no chance at rolled r's.

Maybe this is not an issue for Chinese learning English, but the prejudice is based on fact. Even so, the OP mocked paid shills for the Chinese Government, not all Chinese.

>>Strange, because the Chinese I've studied with did mix up l and r, or at least had big trouble producing a tapped r in such a way that it could be distinguished from l. Also they had no chance at rolled r's.

Were they native Mandarin or Cantonese speakers?

If you want to tell what dialect a Chinese guy speaks, ask them to say "World". That hits all the hard sounds for them in one word.

Cantonese speakers have more trouble with R/W & L/N confusion, but I've never met a Mandarin speaker that has had

>>I figured out they were Mandarin speakers, although they had never heard that word, and claimed there was just one kind of Chinese (although they spoke "weird" in Hong Kong)

Lol.

When they make the 'r' sound, they should be pursing their lips, and making a weird 'rrr' sound when doing it. I posted some sound files above of what the r sounds like in Mandarin. It may sound funny, but they shouldn't be confusing the r and l. =)

Hey, maybe you can tell me where the little Asian guy who taught one of my classes was from. He was doing digital pattern recognition and was always talking about faces and eyes (since they are the easiest-to-locate features on faces, I guess).

If you take the following continuum (not a progression, but a continuum):

eyes — ice — ess — ass

His pronunciation of “eyes” was about three-quarters of the way to “ass” (which was really funny, when he’d point to his face

It's true Mandarin has distinct R's and L's, although just last week a Chinese friend of mine told an inadvertently hilarious story about a game that involved hitting a bell when she confused the word "bell" with "bear". I haven't noticed her making similar errors though, so it could be just that one word she was confused over, and not the "l" sound in general.

Wow, I can't believe you (not you alone) think of this as mocking. Maybe it comes because we have grown up in different places. Man, my Asian friends certainly aren't offended by this one. Probably would be on the receiving end of a Dutchman joke though... at which I can laugh too. Not everything is a racial issue lol.

It doesn't bother me that you're mocking a race, it bothers me that you're mocking the wrong race. =)

It's like... making fun of Dutchmen for eating sauerkraut and invading Poland.

What was up with Poland, seriously? We always learned in high school that they did it to get to France. Then in college I looked at a map of Europe, and I think the Germans could have benefited from doing the same.

Note: I've always been an extremely poor student, thus the lack of looking at maps.

OK in short. Germany had made a pact with Russia, to divide Poland (molotov-pact). Germany made a claim on Poland province Danzig. Poland would not give the province and Hitler invaded. At that point France and England declared war. Poland is not on the route to France, it is the route to Russia. So I don't know why they told you that they did it to get to France... They invaded France first by the Maginot line, which was heavily fortified, so Hitler declared war on Belgium, this route would lead to Paris a

Hey, maybe when the Chinese internet turns into the Chinese LAN, they can have huge Chinese LAN parties! Of course, these LAN parties will have to be harmonized by the government and consist of 72 hours of back to back dota, counter-strike, and wow. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is also interested in recruiting new operators for their virtual soldiers.

The Chinese cannot have LAN parties because there's only one party allowed, the communist party.