Cadden wrote:My personal take? If the powers-that-be in Disney state there's no difference between a Force-sensitive and a Force user, then we need to follow that. Period. It's no different than, before, when GL's word was law. Which also means we'll need to modify the rules to either include Force-sensitives, or exclude them so long as they do not control the Force. (One can easily argue, based on canon evidence, that a Force-sensitive could use the Force and not be aware they are doing so, but said things have already proven to be incredibly limited in nature.) Whichever is decided, needs to be decided, because with this information in light what was once black and white is no longer.

Did they, though? The only thing I've seen is a wiki article and who knows who wrote that or where they got their information. I've been checking official sources since then (and I'm still checking) and am having trouble coming up with something to corroborate. Starwars.com doesn't even have an individual category for "Force Sensitive".

Mir wrote:My more main concern is not that these are the rules and they're black and white, but more that I want a good reason to change them, not because someone knowingly or unknowingly broke them and wants the issue wiped away. Because then we open ourselves up to this happening down the road.

Whether the rule changes or not, I don't care. I'll prolly abstain from the vote.

Mir, are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that the only argument I've been making this whole time is I made a mistake and I want you to fix it? Is that seriously what you're telling me right now? What about everything I've said, did you not pay attention to any of it? Are you saying that nothing I've said is a good enough reason to reconsider revising the rule? If that's how you truly feel then forget it. I officially withdraw my petition if that's the case because clearly my position in this whole matter is compromised because I quote "made a mistake" and that's all anyone is going to see now...

2. We should look at changing it before the first time we were going to do that anyway, because I'm speculating based off an interview that I'm going to be right.

3. There are a few characters out there that we don't know what happened to, so I'm going to speculate on their future.

4. I can't find "force sensitive" on starwars.com

None of those are concrete, reasoned out arguments. The first, we've already ruled out. The second is based on pure speculation (I can speculate the opposite way). The third, is probably the strongest, but even there, it would make sense to wait until VIII comes out (which is less than a year) to give them time to release new episodes of tv shows and what not, because we were going to wait anyway. The fourth, just means we change the term we use.

Aaaand you've completely ignored most of what I said... Again... Forget it, I'm done. You're not listening to me at all and I'm tired of playing this game. I've already tagged Jess with a deletion tag on the wiki so whenever you get around to it Cadden...

Pryde wrote:Aaaand you've completely ignored most of what I said... Again... Forget it, I'm done. You're not listening to me at all and I'm tired of playing this game. I've already tagged Jess with a deletion tag on the wiki so whenever you get around to it Cadden...

Pryde wrote:Aaaand you've completely ignored most of what I said... Again... Forget it, I'm done. You're not listening to me at all and I'm tired of playing this game. I've already tagged Jess with a deletion tag on the wiki so whenever you get around to it Cadden...

I deleted it for you. Congratulations on that btw.

Thanks, the smugness really sort of punctuates exactly how I'm feeling right now...

Perhaps what I lament most is that I was the one to introduce the "no statute of limitations" clause, although I guess I still think that's a good rule.

Some points to consider from the last time around:
1. Mir opposed a limitation to Force sensitives.

Mir wrote:My only qualm is with the number of Forcers allowed. I'm okay with having a restriction of 2 Ex-Jedi characters. But I think the number of Force-Users/sensitives/whatever shouldn't be limited. However, the limit to their skill should be that of a Jedi Knight. I differentiate skill from power. Skill is the ability to wield the power. I have no issues with someone being as powerful as an Esran Croft, Kormoron, Kalja, Lil Sivtie, etc. But their ability to tap into that power should be limited, at best to that of a Jedi Knight, and even then it should be rare cases of that high level of control.

Also, as long as everyone understands that the timeframe for readjustment of the number of Ex-Jedi Knights is the next Main Trilogy movie (So not Rogue One, but Episode 8 ), then I'm happy.

Obviously, his current behavior is his legal profession and his status as Story Coordinator focusing on the rules as they exist, not harshing anyone's buzz because he hates Jedi.

2. The synonymous nature of "Force user" and "Force sensitive" was mentioned before the vote... buuuuuut at exactly the same time, the point (that it was intended to stop powerful characters from showing up) was also made clear.

Nichalus wrote:The whole limiting of Force User/Sensitive, which are really one and the same according to the Wookiepedia, is that we don't need masses of suddenly strong Force Users 'at the beginning' or the reboot.

Specifying a difference between "sensitive" and "user" was also talked about at some length in the Force discussion thread, with most people coming down on the side, "There's a difference, because otherwise that's dumb."

3. The overwhelming majority of this thread was about the nature of Force-users in the new canon, not necessarily the number; the number in the rules (2) seems to have been conjured in the last second by Nich, then defended only by Nich in the proposal discussion thread (and opposed by almost everyone else). Most people, in discussions of limiting the number of Jedi, differentiated between "users" and "sensitives," regardless of the state of canon on the matter. Ultimately, we all agreed to the limit with the understanding that it would be lifted if/when new information came to light or Episode VIII, whichever came first (implying that such information would be liberating, not restricting).

So, in my mind, there are a couple new things to consider this time around.
A) Definition and representation. Let's assume for a moment that "Force sensitive" on a character's wiki means "aware and actively utilizing" (i.e., it's synonymous with "Force user"). From Legends, pretend Corran Horn had a wiki that was built up over time as his life proceeded. He was genetically predisposed to using the Force from birth, but he wasn't aware of that until sometime in the X-Wing novels, and though he used it (sort of) a few times then, he didn't actively pursue using the Force until the events of I, Jedi. Under this definition, at the earliest, his Wiki would be marked "Force sensitive" when he discovered the ability, and not a moment sooner (even if Michael A. Stackpole knew where he'd end up). In that case, regardless of Hirai "using" the Force to, I don't know, run faster or dodge a vibroblade (I haven't read the thread, I'm sorry, I'm way behind), she isn't a "Force user," because Corran wasn't a "Force user" when his connection to the Force made him a better pilot, because he didn't know about it. So, in the same way that Corran doesn't get a check mark for "Force sensitive," neither should a character like Hirai. Even if you don't say "no," so as not to be lying, the field can be left blank.

Which would solve this whole problem.

For comparison, my Force-wielder-in-training Modig Falla clearly counts against me, because he knows about his ability and is working on it. But if I decide that two years from now, Falatarr will suddenly start developing a connection to the Force, he can't count against me (even though he's genetically predisposed--what we used to call "sensitive") because nobody knows about it, least of all him.

2) The rules clearly state that this would be reconsidered upon either the discovery of new information from a canon source ("canon" being "published" or "released," not necessarily word-of-God because there is no one god of Star Wars anymore, and J. J. Abrams--among others--is a notoriously dirty liar about his movies) or the release of Episode VIII, presuming it would have more information on the subject. I still think that's a fair assumption, because even if it's focused on the relationship between Luke and Rey, somebody's going to say, "So what the hell happened with all those other students, anyway? Why not look for more pupils?" and someone will mention, "Oh, yeah, there are tons of people I could have taught, but I'm frightened of power corrupting people," or, "What are you on about? The Force is abandoning the whole Galaxy, and hardly anybody can use it."

Based on that assumption, we haven't fulfilled the requirements stated in the rule about when it can be reevaluated (unless someone has some evidence to present from a novel/comic/TV show/movie/video game/action figure package).

and D) I don't really give a crap about the rule, and I never liked it anyway. And this being the pseudo-democracy that it is, I think that we as a community can vote to change any rule we want, even if the rules say we can't, because we can vote to change those rules, too, dammit.

I mean, technically, I put four Force-users (according to the above definition) in my first thread of the new MBT, and I did so halfway through my second post there, which I know Mir knew about, because I talked to him about that thread in general more recently than that. But still no one has kvetched. (I mean, for one thing, probably most of them are going to die, and it doesn't affect anybody anyway.) But I only considered it "one" according to the rule because I assumed it meant "main characters" or "characters you are currently developing." If I ever develop those other characters beyond the story of the main character, they would then count against me, too (at least according to my interpretation of the rule, which, based on this thread, was clearly flawed).

But it's okay that I broke that rule, because I haven't posted in that thread for 6 months, so... let's call it "self-imposed hiatus to respect the rules," instead of, "real life has kept me way too busy to write anything fictional at all and I'm really really sorry I killed your thread Pryde."

Honestly, I'd forgotten about your thread and I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be magic or the Force exactly due to the nature of how you were presenting it, as you were talking about gods and what not. I should have asked then, really. But then after you stopped posting on it and haven't for months, I figured by the time you got around to it, we'd be really close to VIII coming out anyway and we'd be doing the readjustment.

Really, I'm against changing the rule not because I think the rule in its current form is right, but because we have two situations of people intentionally or unintentionally breaking it and then trying to get it changed to suit their purposes, when we did put in the statute of limitations to stop this exact thing from happening. As you rightly pointed out, I'm looking at this from a purely "legal"/story coordinator perspective.

Thus far, no one has convinced me that there is new information that we should change for, instead of waiting until VIII. Obviously, my feelings aren't the end all be all.

Mir wrote:Thus far, no one has convinced me that there is new information that we should change for, instead of waiting until VIII. Obviously, my feelings aren't the end all be all.

What about testimonials from the Executive Producer of Rebels, the Chief Executive of Story Development for Lucasfilm and even George Lucas himself? According to those three anyone can use the Force. Dave Filoni likened it to Kung-fu or Karate saying if you work at it you can be good but you'll never be as good as Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee is Anakin. Here's what Pablo Hidalgo had to say about it;

9/ I think people understandably got caught up in the whole midi-chlorian thing. They thought you must have X no. of midis to use the Force.
10/ No, the midi-prereq was to enter the prequel-era Jedi Order. It's a rather soulless way to look at potential, by narrative design.

And George Lucas himself likened the Force to yoga in an interview with Kasdan during the Making of Return of the Jedi. Anyone can practice the Force and by definition anyone can be a potential Force user. So anyone with more than two characters right now on the Exodus Galaxy is violating the rule. At the very least that tells us that our understanding of the Force is flawed in some way. The rule needs clarification; do we limit everyone to two characters because anyone can potentially be a Force user? Or do we apply the limit to only trained Force users? And again, a point that was made before, do we apply the limit to NPCs and villains who will never see the light of day in another thread? Personally, I think the rules as written allow for that last one. What was it that Halo quoted?

If a member absolutely knows...KNOWS...that they are creating a story that will not drastically alter our little piece of Star Wars Universe, they don't have to consult the SC (Story Coordinator). Write your story and have fun.

I think that allows for some leeway. For instance, if Halo absolutely knows...KNOWS...that the Leidias family will not drastically alter our Star Wars universe (i.e. by becoming major characters and participating in multiple threads which he has already said they won't) then he is well within his rights to not have to approach the story coordinator about it and can just write his story. Or are you saying that we're only going to come down hard on the Jedi rule but be lax on everything else? Hell, just a few days ago I told Mir my crew in Smuggler's Gambit were after the plans for a missile weapon that could blow up stars. Granted I also told him the plans would be destroyed at the end of the thread by the main character but either way he seemed okay with that. That weapon will never see the light of day, nor will it appear in any other thread and that is apparently okay while Tulsar Leidias (who is arguably less threatening than a weapon that can destroy the sun) is not okay despite the fact that he will also never see the light of day or participate in another thread. Nice double standard there, guys.

Now I know what you're gonna say because you keep saying it; "Side characters can become main characters." If that's the case and it actually does happen then nail them on it when they do. I don't see why that is such a problem. I mean you're trolling everyone's threads anyway looking for rule breakers so the minute Halo puts Tulsar and his family in another galaxy spanning story you'll know and you can call him out on it. If we're going to stick with the limit then the limit should be on main characters only and not supporting cast. That's how I understood it before the rule went into effect, it was only after the fact I was told differently and not even by the man who wrote the rule. Even Nich has said;

My opinion on that is, if the extra force character will be used in your own story, and does not go beyond it...I see no reason why not, but the final decision I will leave to the Story Coordinator.

The guy who authored the rule seems fine with the idea so long as those characters don't go anywhere beyond your story. It's only the story coordinator who is taking this hardline, no freaking exceptions whatsoever stance. So there's another reason to review and possibly revise it cause each of us seem to understand the rule differently from the way it's being interpreted by the SC. That clearly suggests it needs clarification. The rule as it stands is too broad and vague and by Mir's definition waaaay too limiting. Star Wars has historically been about the struggle between light and dark and at the core of that struggle are the Jedi and Sith. So if I have two Jedi characters I can never, EVER have them fight a Sith NPC unless I ask someone else to come in and role play that NPC for me? Really? You know I did that once, I asked someone to role play a character for me despite my reservations, which were many. I don't like asking someone to do a favor for me when ultimately they get nothing in return and lose something because of it, one slot in their Jedi limit. Anyway, he's not here anymore as far as I can tell so I'm left asking, now what?

But it's okay that I broke that rule, because I haven't posted in that thread for 6 months, so... let's call it "self-imposed hiatus to respect the rules," instead of, "real life has kept me way too busy to write anything fictional at all and I'm really really sorry I killed your thread Pryde."

Meh, it's alright. I may do something else with the character, or continue the thread at a later date when you have more time.

Last edited by Pryde on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

I'm sorry, but not a single one of those is 'definitive' proof of anything, they are opinions and thoughts on the matter. Especially pertaining to George Lucas, since everything right up to when he sold everything, is now 'Legend'.

Until it is in a book or movie, post Disney Purchase, then everything is speculation until then. Again, this is in keeping with the whole reason that we created this new forum. Until we have factual, officially released information, everything else is conjecture and opinion.

This is ridiculous, every time I present evidence that contradicts your views I'm immediately shot down and ignored. This is twice now that I've presented evidence from Disney executives that supports a broader view of the Force and both times the evidence was neither addressed nor acknowledged. How the hell am I supposed to sit here and not think that this isn't just some conspiracy to make sure I don't get what I want?

Producers, and Exec Directors, Story Writers, Directors, etc, still go through a lengthy processes, and approvals with the team BEFORE it is filmed or animated. Because they stated their opinion that it could be, doesn't mean that it will be put on film officially. The one speculated that if he wanted to bring back Dash Rendar, then he could...COULD. But that doesn't mean its going to happen.

Pryde wrote:And for the record it was in a movie. Rogue One, anyone? "But Pryde," you say, "Chirrut is actually Force Sensitive." Really, that's been confirmed then, has it?

Actually I didn't think Chirrut is a Force Sensitive, I believe that due to his blindness (which makes his other senses more acute) and training he was a excellent Monk/Warrior type. He may have 'believed' in the Force, but he showed no actual abilities of Force 'Use'.

So the fact that he was chanting, "I'm one with the Force the Force is with me," before marching out into enemy fire, pure coincidence. Or when Jyn clutched her Kyber Crystal and did what looked like silent praying right before they were miraculously allowed to land, also coincidence. Gareth Edwards had absolutely no reason to frame the scene that way, no reason at all. Certainly not trying to imply the Force had anything to do with it, no sir...

Canon does state that there were those whom believed in the Force but were unable to use it. (Church of the Force, fire example, which the old dude at the beginning of VII belonged.)

I do have to agree with Nich, though. What any of the people with the development of Star Wars say cannot be taken as 100% factual canon until it is put into print, or on the screen. Otherwise, it's just concept. Until a book, movie, game, or TV episode comes out that says, "Yes, everyone can use the Force," then, yes, even from an executive producer or a story developer, these are merely conjectures. I hate to say it, Pryde, but that's just the fact. Just because they hold a special place in the development process doesn't mean that it's suddenly canon, else half the crap GL said in the HuffPost article would still be considered such. Instead we have a Yoda who can fight and Palpatine who was more than "just a politician who figured out how to use the Force to his own ends".

People change their mind on things while developing stuff all the time. I'm not saying it won't develop into this, but there is nothing within canon that backs up these claims at this time.

And, no, I do not think Chirrut Imwe was Force-sensitive. The conversation between him and Baze about how he believes it's the Force that protects him and Baze retorts saying he protects him is one point. If that's not enough, the databank itself says, and I quote, "he lacks Force abilities." To me, this seems a bit counter-informative, if we have other people saying, "You can use the Force if you really try hard enough." (Wasn't that covered, anyway, in VII? )

As far as the chanting and the crystal are concerned, I'd see those as a form of meditation, top clear one's mind for the task at hand. Not as a means for the individual connecting with the Force.

We have not one but two execs both saying the same thing about the Force. We know that there is a lot of collaboration going on at Lucasfilm and now we have Gareth Edwards movie showing not one but two separate, non-Force Sensitive characters both unconsciously using the Force and you all are going to sit here and tell me I'm crazy because a Wookieepedia article that wasn't written by anyone at Lucasfilm says something that implies I might be wrong. You know what, I give up. There's just no convincing anyone...

At one point does it ever declare they used the Force in Rogue One? And my info on Chirrut comes from the databank, not Wookieepedia. Though I got it from there, they referenced the databank, which declares he did not use the Force.

A chant doesn't make someone use the Force. Rubbing a crystal doesn't make someone use the Force. If the novel said they tapped into the Force, then that's another story, but you're using conjecture, here, to declare something with no backing as fact. You cannot declare a character used the Force simply because it matches up with your own personal observations and beliefs. That would be like saying Snoke was Palpatine because the latter told Anakin about cheating death once upon a time ago. There's nothing to back that theory up other than casual observation.

Clearly you are not familiar with the phrase, "Show don't tell." There are any number of different ways Gareth could have handled these scenes but no. He absolutely HAD to show the Kyber Crystal and Chirrut absolutely HAD to repeat the chant (while walking slow enough to be shot by even the worst trained stormtrooper and these were supposed to be elite death troopers, mind you). Both of these scenes end miraculously against all odds suggesting that something is going on but they're not going to tell you that something was the Force because that would be telling not showing.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Again, if the novel doesn't say it, then I'm sticking with the official information found in the databank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Chirrut being Force-sensitive and all that, but unless information says he is, then he isn't. Again, my source of information is directly from the databank, which clearly states he doesn't use the Force.

And for the last ****ing time can we stop criticizing me for using "conjecture". What the hell do you think is the entire basis of the rule? "We don't know if there are any other Force users out there so let's limit the number to be more in line with canon." What the hell is that? The whole basis for the rule assumes there aren't any or that they are few when in actuality we just don't freaking know. Yet every time I point out instances where Disney themselves have left the door open for the possibility of other Force users existing post RotJ all I ever hear is, "Pryde, that's conjecture."

Last edited by Pryde on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cadden wrote:Yeah, I'm not buying it. Again, if the novel doesn't say it, then I'm sticking with the official information found in the databank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Chirrut being Force-sensitive and all that, but unless information says he is, then he isn't. Again, my source of information is directly from the databank, which clearly states he doesn't use the Force.

I didn't say he was Force sensitive, the point is he's not but he used the Force anyway. Whether or not he knew he was actually doing it.