I read through your response, and I wanted to add something that you may not be aware of, and I wasn't until recently. What is interesting is that American Christianity, in fact any Judeo Christian religion outside of the Jewish thinking, is and can only look at Scripture half way.

Case in point:

The Bible was written by over 40 men of all educational levels, from 4 different continents, over the course of 1600 years I think it was.... But they were Jewish, or understood the Jewish mindset, but I believe the first statement to be true in that they were Jewish.

Now here's the interesting party:

Jewish thinking and translation is CONCRETE, based upon fact and written as such.

Non-Jewish or "Greek" thinking is analytical, and is also based upon fact but it disects what is written, translates it, and then brings the knowledge out.

Case in point:

Take a frog for instance.

For us to understand a frog we take a dead one, staple it to a board and disect it, learning what each part does, what it had for food, what each muscle does, how big the brain is and so on.

In Jewish thinking they immerse themselves in the environment and look at things literally. The frogs life is documented so that they know where it likes to live, what it likes to eat, what's it's favorite lilly pad, girlfriend, life cycles etc.

Can you see the difference? The difference is context, one literal one analytical, both correct just different.

Now apply that to our critical thinking especially in the US. How many people have said, I will not believe unless I see? What if they are misinterpreting what they see, because they don't realize they see it?Ray Vander laan is a high school teacher in Grand Rapids, he's also a Pastor from the Dutch Reformed church, and a Rabbi. He has gone to great lengths to explain Scripture through the context of the Jewish perspective to American Christians, therefore illustrating a whole new perspective that we could not see before. It is amazing.

Case in point #2, in Genesis the opening Scriptures speak of the Spirit hovering over the waters, and many including myself thought that meant a large mass of water from which earth was formed. But in Jewish thinking the waters, or the deep depending how it's translated, actually refers to CHAOS. What is space, especially the origin but "chaos." Now think of the arguments that have been generated by the big bang theory. I've participated in them so I know how heated they can become. But the big bang theory is one of CHAOS!!!

Can you see the perspectives? It's quite amazing, and if any of you are interested in Ray's cd's I'll make copies and send them out free of charge, just PM me and give me an address.

Be blessed fellas and thanks for being hungry, the truth is out there we just have to be willing to look.

I've seen you use this frog example here before and it is fundamentally flawed. Your statement that we would simply dissect a frog to try to understand it is simply not true. The modern world does not simply look at any given thing in only one manifestation of situation and then presume to understand it. Yes we do dissect the frog and examine it that way. But we also observe it in it's natural environment (just like your description of the "Jewish" thinking) and document all the things you described. We also look at it's biology, what other creatures it is similar to, and see if there is anything to learn there. We also cook it to see if it tastes good. etc. The bottom line is your analysis is flawed because your fundamental, underlying assumption is incorrect. So the foundation of your argument is wrong, which leads to your overall argument being discredited.

Every explanation you've given comes down to the same thing I posted earlier. You are a true believer, so you will adapt any story or set of facts to fit the narrative you believe. Your example about the waters somehow representing chaos and somehow that relates to the big bang theory is a god example. In my opinion that argument makes sense only if you already believe in the teachings of Christianity and are trying to find ways to justify those beliefs. To a non-believer, it's just nonsense.

Also, regarding your claim that you've presented scientific info that confirms scriptures, this simply isn't true. The links you've provided show that some of the circumstances in the bible likely did occur (such as an eclipse for example), but that does not prove any of the supernatural claims of the bible. It would be the same as me writing a book that includes Kennedy being assassinated, AIG being bailed out, and Washington crossing the Delaware (all verifiable, historical events), and claiming that I was at each event and that I am actually a time traveler. The fact that the first 3 events are real and did happen doesn't lend any credence to my further claims. Get it?

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

October 30th, 2012, 1:10 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Zeitgeist

TDJ,

Actually there is an error in your assumption, mainly because you are assuming that I've communicated the same information concerning the frog in the best possible way. In reality, you've received it third person, I heard it, I thought it was a pertinent example, and I re-used the example, explaining it to the best of my ability.

You are correct that I am a true believer, but to make the assumption that I am going to corrupt the details in order to strengthen or maintain my point of view isn't really true nor appropriate. Now I could be misunderstanding the text, and I"m sure there was not any "tone" available for me to judge based upon mere words, so I'm left with just that, words. Therefore, my translation, and yours after having read this, will be subject to how you choose to read it. I assure you that I'm not being argumentative, nor mean spirited. I am just trying to let you konw that your assumption of what I said was based on third person.

If you can hear straight from the horses mouth, then that is the best option, and that's what I've offered free of charge. With the BSP, that is up to you whether or not you wish to "follow the Science." But in having said that, the possibility exists that you or any other "non-believer" will corrupt the details in order to back your position for non-belief. I've seen it several times, and most often its through beligerence, amplified theories, uber educated verbage, and if that's enough, there's always the proverbial silence........................................

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 30th, 2012, 2:35 pm

Blueskies

Player of the Year - Offense

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 2882

Re: Zeitgeist

@Ferris

I'm a hardcore atheist. But again, the religious part in Zeitgeist is greatly exaggerated. You can find many refutations through the wikipedia page on Zeitgeist. You could also watch this:

Okay, I watched about 7 minutes of the video and realized that I had seen this before, but as a refresher proceeded to watch up until that time. One of the things I find extremely interesting is:

at the .55 second mark the narrator speaks about the tracking of stars and how they were able to plot things out, and events and so on.

This is why I would like to encourage you to check out the Bethlehem Star Project just for the science alone!!!!

For instance, the Star of Bethlehem wasn't really a star at all, but the course of three planets who's mutual rotations were closely aligned, and it is documented via back dating using science, that to the naked eye, it appeard to be one bright star. IT also occured for the period of about a 3 years if i remember the dvd correctly. It's been 2 years since I've seen the DVD, and the someone borrowed it, and it never came back.

As I said, for the science buffs out there, the astronomy alone is AMAZING, and then the dating of significant events including the date of the crucifixion of Christ, His birth, and other things are all documented, by back dating via planetary orbits. PLEASE check it out, it's way cool, and if it warms you up to the possibility of Christ, well that's just a bonus. My intention is to answer your question using the science so many seek.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 30th, 2012, 8:30 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3039Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: Zeitgeist

WOO HOO! I actually found the segments for you so you don't have to buy the DVD.

Ok, I think this is all of it, so I really hope you Scientists out there will give it a good go, there about 10 minutes each. Thanks!

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

October 30th, 2012, 8:38 pm

Ferris

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: April 19th, 2005, 2:10 pmPosts: 2478Location: Michigan

Re: Zeitgeist

I have not watched the videos you have replied with, but in all fairness, I will do that and get back to that.

Ok, I think this is all of it, so I really hope you Scientists out there will give it a good go, there about 10 minutes each. Thanks!

If the star regulus was the star of jesus, hypothetically, wouldn't someone have built the Sphinx in Egypt for Jesus? The great sphinx is a lions body with man's head, but where the sphinx is looking at 2 BC is Aries, The Ram - The only time the Sphinx is looking at itself is again around 10,500 B.C.

This video just doesn't add up - I watched it - just through my eyes. This guy is a low I.Q. christian who is a pastor for the bethlehem lutheran church that changed time and space to make this work - he has no degree in astrology and doesn't know how it relates to the earth or the heavens. Next

I'm curious, are you an astronomer? You made this comment, "This guy is a low I.Q. christian who is a pastor for the bethlehem lutheran church that changed time and space to make this work - he has no degree in astrology and doesn't know how it relates to the earth or the heavens." and I was curious as to your profession.

Mr. Larson goes a long way to tell you that he's not a professional astronomer, but a man with questions. In fact, he even states that he is a lawyer by trade, and that his seasoned analytical mind encouraged him to seek the answers, and he used known scientific software to track it down.

I get the fact that you are probably not a believer in Jesus, and no worries. I didn't search for, nor include the videos to try and convert you, and yes they are geared towards Christians, because Christians are really the only ones who truly care about the author of our faith. By including the videos, I was just pointing you in the direction of the science that backs up Biblical "stories and myths" via known software.

Again, I wasn't trying to convert you, just show you what one man with an inquisitive mind, and some time could do, if he really went looking. And just for the record, I'm not big on organized religion either! God is much to personal, and relational driven to be hemmed in by a bunch of rituals, and rules.

So thank you for taking a look at the video, I hope you decided to check them all out, they're all about 10 min. each and really quite interesting, IF you are willing to look at it objectively.

_________________2 Chronicles 10:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."