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I don't think Sonnymak is using the dubious A>B, B>C then A>C "logic". His point is, the fact that CTF/LWW (and also Candra/Tony) still can match young pairs in 2007, when they were already around 30, shows that there is no big difference in physical ability between current players and players 10 years ago.

TH cannot beat LCW now because TH is much slower now than himself in 2004. Are you saying TH in 2004 will not be able to match LCW today?

Note: even today's PG, at age 33, considerably slower than 10 years ago, can still beat LCW once in a while and push LD to the limit.

Yang Yang vs. Lin Dan at their peak..

..so, this past weekend, i was out and about playing baddy and getting my behind creamed playing singles...

Afterward, i chatted with this middle age M'sian guy. We were chatting and what do we know, the topic of comparing players of yesteryears and today came to the forefront.

He told me, after watching Lin Dan in his full glory at last yr's Olympics and comparing to what he saw of Yang Yang in the 80s, he'd say both have eerily similar playing style. However, Yang Yang is still superior technically (esp. his x-court shots and fast drop shots) than LinDan. On the other hand, Lin Dan reigns in his stamina, speed and power.

So, I then asked him, "Who does he think will win, between Yang Yang and Lin Dan, both lefties, if both played against each other at their peak age?". He paused for 2.25 seconds and told me "He feels using the old scoring system (15 pts), Yang Yang would kick Lin Dan off the court. However, using the new scoring system, Lin Dan would wipe Yang Yang off the court, simply because Lin Dan is such an offensive-minded player, which suits the current scoring system".

..so, this past weekend, i was out and about playing baddy and getting my behind creamed playing singles...

Afterward, i chatted with this middle age M'sian guy. We were chatting and what do we know, the topic of comparing players of yesteryears and today came to the forefront.

He told me, after watching Lin Dan in his full glory at last yr's Olympics and comparing to what he saw of Yang Yang in the 80s, he'd say both have eerily similar playing style. However, Yang Yang is still superior technically (esp. his x-court shots and fast drop shots) than LinDan. On the other hand, Lin Dan reigns in his stamina, speed and power.

So, I then asked him, "Who does he think will win, between Yang Yang and Lin Dan, both lefties, if both played against each other at their peak age?". He paused for 2.25 seconds and told me "He feels using the old scoring system (15 pts), Yang Yang would kick Lin Dan off the court. However, using the new scoring system, Lin Dan would wipe Yang Yang off the court, simply because Lin Dan is such an offensive-minded player, which suits the current scoring system".

Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?

PG is smart, but look how he ran out of ideas when faced LCW at this year Hong Kong SS final. TH has good technique, and he got beaten by a half trying LD at France SS final.

the problem with opinion poll (ie, democracy) is that everyone get 1 equal vote, without weighting on individual background knowledge. By their point of view, they are not wrong. Usually from their childhood upbringing and what they remember from old matches as their base of reference. When YY run around alot, sustaining long rallies, usage of lot of different kind of strokes and deception, the middle age M'sian guy believed YY has great skills and that attributed to great tactic and technique. He may not appreciate the long rallies can be due to having 2 equally level players competing or YY can't crush his opponent quickly although YY usually win in the end. From bruce lee teaching. he said, in movies and shows, he uses lots of arms waving, jumping flying kick, roundhouse kick to give great entertainment value and showoff his skills, and fights last a long time, 3 or more minutes. However, in real fights, he said, he doesn't use kicks, just simple basic technique and it should not last more then 0.5 minute. So if LD rip apart his opponent in short duration, most of us don't appreciate his efficiency and didn't see much fancy skills like other players. It's too bad some of us under value speed and power skills. They see real skills as strokes and deception. That is why TH garner so much popularity. He look great against someone lower than him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vAhUljTmjU). As the pace cranks up, u get a TH at the 09 French open against LD. Don't get me wrong, i think TH is also very talented but his dropping off in stamina and speed surppressed his other skills

I believe OSS works great for LD as well as he will not waste time and effort to finsh his opponent in 21 point when he can do it in 15 points.

My analogy for that guy who gave his opinion of LD is like this: when he see a skinny guy in public, he view that skinny must be poor because he can't afford food and work alot. lol Of course, i'm just one person opinion as well

Dear Wong8Egg..

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

Please pass on these 3 questions to your friend.

Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?
...

..i will try to bring those questions up to him. But i could tell you, when i first asked him abt his opinion, he was pretty frank.

Again, the opinion is that of someone who had watched & followed Yang Yang & ZJH during their playing career. Further, taking both YY and LD at their peak, he differentiated the scenario as Yang Yang would probably prevail in the old scoring system and LinDan would probably prevail in the new scoring system.
Now, i can imagine, even if he answers all those 3 questions honestly and still keeps the same view, i doubt any Lin Dan fans would accept his opinion.

I'd like to read other BCers' opinions, esp. from those who had followed & watched Zhao Jianhua & Yang Yang (e.g. abedeng, sonnymak, Loh), on their chances vs. LinDan, if they were to play each other in their peak.

..but, i will try to ask him those questions again when i meet him on the baddy court..

How can Yang yang compare to Lin dan , guys look at how Lin dan destroy Lee chong wei at olympics games 08,, it will be the same when Lin dan jump smash ,Yang yang cant do anything abt it

Exactly! Nobody can hit like LD does back then and no one can retrieve like LD back then. No matter how you see it or how you count the points there is no way the past could beat the present.

YY or ZJH looks sharp in the past only because they were at the top of their era against a lesser opponent. If they are transport to present, I doubt they can look or play nearly as sharp in front of LD/LCW. They would left clueless on the court because they are outclassed in every category, offensive play, defensive play, speed, power and stamina.

The questions are good questions, but your examples... PG & TH are way past their primes. Just watch any of their games before 2004 and you will see the big difference in physical ability (for example: can they still follow their smashes as fast as before? The answer is clearly NO; Can they keep their pace like they did 5 years ago? The answer is again a clear NO.).

Except for the LD in OG08 final, I don't think today's best MS is at higher level than the best MS players in 1999. Considering the rumor that ZJH beat SJ easily in a 7-pt game in 1997, I would not answer your questions very quickly...

The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.

Originally Posted by Wong8Egg

Please pass on these 3 questions to your friend.

Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?

PG is smart, but look how he ran out of ideas when faced LCW at this year Hong Kong SS final. TH has good technique, and he got beaten by a half trying LD at France SS final.

..i will try to bring those questions up to him. But i could tell you, when i first asked him abt his opinion, he was pretty frank.

Again, the opinion is that of someone who had watched & followed Yang Yang & ZJH during their playing career. Further, taking both YY and LD at their peak, he differentiated the scenario as Yang Yang would probably prevail in the old scoring system and LinDan would probably prevail in the new scoring system.
Now, i can imagine, even if he answers all those 3 questions honestly and still keeps the same view, i doubt any Lin Dan fans would accept his opinion.

I'd like to read other BCers' opinions, esp. from those who had followed & watched Zhao Jianhua & Yang Yang (e.g. abedeng, sonnymak, Loh), on their chances vs. LinDan, if they were to play each other in their peak.

..but, i will try to ask him those questions again when i meet him on the baddy court..

just for discussion
if someone could make a huge separation without giving us the specific, i doubt his judgement This huge separation being YY can beat LD in OSS while LD would beat YY in NSS. I just can't fathom the theory that difference in scoring system would change thing around 180 degree.

As an ex.
TH's stamina is a recognized weakness but yet how come the NSS isn't helping him? He has won more and bigger titles under the OSS than NSS. Also in NSS, there is a break at 11 point too.

The questions are good questions, but your examples... PG & TH are way past their primes. Just watch any of their games before 2004 and you will see the big difference in physical ability (for example: can they still follow their smashes as fast as before? The answer is clearly NO; Can they keep their pace like they did 5 years ago? The answer is again a clear NO.).

Except for the LD in OG08 final, I don't think today's best MS is at higher level than the best MS players in 1999. Considering the rumor that ZJH beat SJ easily in a 7-pt game in 1997, I would not answer your questions very quickly...

The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.

u r changing the parameter for comparison on the fly. I have said before, your what if LYB/ ZJH were allowed to be conditioned in today environment, things will go well for them. That is an assumption and not necessary plausible. I've said LYB could gain weight if he can eat today's food, plus new distraction from new environment. Why u only see pluses and not minuses on the what if's? Ok, so if ZJH or LYB train and condition for a year to adapt into today playing style, then they are 1 year older. U can't assume a conditioning period with a zero elaspe time. Best comparison is their best as is versus current best as is. Stop putting in too many what if add-on's to ZJH and LYB already best ability at their peak.

Dear cooler (BC's LinDan's die-hard & numero uno supporter)..

Originally Posted by cooler

just for discussion
if someone could make a huge separation without giving us the specific, i doubt his judgement This huge separation being YY can beat LD in OSS while LD would beat YY in NSS. I just can't fathom the theory that difference in scoring system would change thing around 180 degree.

As an ex.
TH's stamina is a recognized weakness but yet how come the NSS isn't helping him? He has won more and bigger titles under the OSS than NSS. Also in NSS, there is a break at 11 point too.

- When i chatted w/that M'sian guy, he told me, this whole comparison revolves around the scoring system used as well as the playing style. Again, to him, a technical player is better suited for the OSS. While an offensive player like LD is better suited for the NSS. Sure, LD had won some titles during the OSS period, but he didn't start his domination until around 2006, the same time when the NSS started. Yang Yang is technically better than LD. LD's speed & power are better than YY.

- Yes, my M'sian friend also brought up the example of TH. TH, to him, is technically better than LD. However, Taufik is not an offensive/attack oriented player like LD. Taufik at his peak & playing with the OSS, in the 2004 OG & 2005 WC, are proof enough of his prowess. The scoring system doesn't really affect much with a player's fitness (stamina). But it does affect the style of a particular player.

Anyone else who witnessed Yang Yang and ZJH play in the 80s, other than SibugiChai, wants to chime in??..

The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.

It would be LD's nightmare IF Goku is taken to the real world, and giving him a several months to get used to the racket.....