[10:48] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Ina
[10:48] Terence McKenna: There’s a demonstration against the local minister of the interior on Sunday.
[10:49] Terence McKenna: Hey Ina. Welcome.
[10:49] You: hey
[10:49] Khannea Suntzu: That frightening lttle fellow over there is the most knowledgeable one Ina
[10:49] You: lol
[10:49] Terence McKenna: I’m just a cryptozoological goat-sucker. Mostly harmless.
[10:50] Terence McKenna: I got the uvvy page, too.
[10:50] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[10:50] Terence McKenna: Khannea is buzzing the entire >H space in SL.
[10:50] Khannea Suntzu: It would be amusing if a few dozen people flooded in
[10:50] You: lol
[10:50] Terence McKenna: Yoicks. That would be kinda scary.
[10:51] Terence McKenna: I expected a very boring first office hour for our group.
[10:51] Terence McKenna: So, Ina, you’re an Extropian?
[10:51] You: sure..
[10:52] You: upload my brain to SL? o.O
[10:52] Terence McKenna: Extropian, as member of ExI, or the circle?
[10:52] Terence McKenna: Uploading is neat, but I’d rather not be stuck in SL for the time. That’s bordering on purgatory.
[10:52] You: hmmm not sure… i guess i am extropian in the general dictionary sense o.O
[10:52] You: lol
[10:53] You: well, i like the idea of uploading or transferring your sentience
[10:53] You: … to a nonbiological and nondegradeable medium
[10:53] Terence McKenna: All right. I was never an offical ExI member myself, though I did hang out with Natasha/Max a couple times.
[10:53] Terence McKenna: I very much like the idea, in fact I’m in love with the idea. There was a meeting in Oxford recently (May 2007) which was about making uploading mainstream.
[10:54] Khannea Suntzu: They should put it in the supermarket dammit
[10:54] You: lol
[10:54] You: is uploading already being done?
[10:54] Terence McKenna: I think we succeeded. Mainstream neuroscience people were there, and agreed whole brain emulation could be talked about with a straight face.
[10:54] You: lol. ah we are still in straight face mode…
[10:55] Terence McKenna: Only for very small values of uploading. Parts of small critters. Snail ganglions, and the like.
[10:55] Khannea Suntzu: Yah it is speculative but not wholly unthinkable
[10:55] Terence McKenna: The point is that the scanners are being developed very rapidly.
[10:55] Terence McKenna: There are at least 3 groups which have very impressive automatic scanners which can do bulk.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: The current approach is on fixated and stained blocks strictly.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: It’s a microtome procedure, aka salami slice scan.
[10:56] Terence McKenna: Cut up the salami, very thin, put each slice on the scanner. Metaphorically.
[10:57] You: hmm
[10:57] You: what happens when we get to the quantum level
[10:57] Terence McKenna: Assemble the virtual salami in the computer, trace the features. Abstract the features.
[10:57] You: and the whole no cloning theorem
[10:57] You: does that mean the original is destroyed
[10:57] Khannea Suntzu: Yah they call that destructive uploading
[10:57] Terence McKenna: You’re not operating at QC scale. We’re much too warm and noisy for that.
[10:57] You: have any experiments been done?
[10:58] You: well, i guess we would prove penrose wrong about the quantum brain then… if this succeeds
[10:58] Khannea Suntzu: Crude simulations of *parts* of single cells
[10:58] You: hmm
[10:58] You: crud.
[10:58] Terence McKenna: Quantum cloning only works for very, very simple systems. It doesn’t scale, and moreover it’s not necessary.
[10:58] You: examples?
[10:58] You: quantum cloning doesn’t work..
[10:58] You: you can’t clone quantum data o.O
[10:58] Terence McKenna: There’s no need to prove Penrose wrong. Penrose never had any evidence for his claims in the first place.
[10:58] You: lol
[10:59] Khannea Suntzu nods and pretends to know all about this stuff
[10:59] You: yes. penrose was a mathematician. his kind of evidence is a bit less than actual evidence o.O
[10:59] You: ;-P
[10:59] Terence McKenna: Ina, when you’re knocked on your head, or undergo general anaesthesia, or are cooled down (hypothermia) your EEG is scrambled temporarily, yet regenerates itself.
[10:59] You: i believe it has to do with plasticity
[10:59] Terence McKenna: You’re still considered the same persion, despite this dramatic (in quantum terms) intervention.
[11:00] You: for light concussions plasticity quickly rearranges
[11:00] You: hmm is that how you would disprove the brain being quantum?
[11:00] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but it gets interesting with electroconvulsive therapy
[11:00] Terence McKenna: The dynamic (EEG) is regenerated by the hardware robustly.
[11:00] Terence McKenna: Electroconvulsive = giant current. It’s a wonder you’re still there after it.
[11:01] You: lol..
[11:01] You: and i guess a number wouldn’t be there afterwards…
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: Good indication just how redundant the system is.
[11:01] Terence McKenna: Very barbaric procedure, unly useful when considered what would happen in absence of it.
[11:01] You: well EEG does change you
[11:01] You: it’s used to treat schizophrenia and such iirc
[11:01] You: you’re not quite the same person afterwards
[11:01] You: then again… how are we defining “same person” o.O
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: No you are completely reset.
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: In fact
[11:01] Khannea Suntzu: You incarnate a different soul. The old soul goes back in the guff.
[11:02] Terence McKenna: Um, I hope Kannea is kidding.
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu: I am being ironic.
[11:02] You: yes, you become totally different… but i thought terence wanted to prove the brain wasn’t quantum because EEG displaces particles aplenty and yet doesn’t “change” your “self” o.O
[11:02] You: lol
[11:02] Terence McKenna: The point is that at anesthesia or hypothermia you’ve got completely flat EEG.
[11:02] Terence McKenna: None. Zilch.
[11:02] You: haha
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu gave you Khannea’s Funny Free Shit #1.
[11:02] Khannea Suntzu gave you Khannea’s Funny Free Shit #2.
[11:02] You: funny free shirt o.O
[11:03] Terence McKenna: Then it restarts, and it’s still you. Let’s forget electroconvulsive therapy for the moment.
[11:03] You: ugh. how do you define “you” ?
[11:03] Terence McKenna: I frankly don’t know enough about it to talk about it.
[11:03] You: obviously any shock thru your head is going to kill memories
[11:03] You: and disrupt thought processes
[11:03] Khannea Suntzu: My guess is that oploading by scanning will work later than a copy generated by incremental replacement from the inside using a lattice.
[11:03] You: “rewire” you so to speak
[11:03] Terence McKenna: Very good question. There are three answers.
[11:03] You: like taking a hdd thru a magnet
[11:03] Terence McKenna: One is whether you still consider yourself yourself.
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: Self diagnosis test?
[11:04] You: that’s subjective lmfao
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Two is whether people and recordings are compatible with your new you.
[11:04] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but it will stand up in court
[11:04] You: you can never feel not lik yourself even after you’ve had like hippocampus surgery like Clive
[11:04] You: you’re yourself
[11:04] You: even if you can’t remember your past
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Third, and the least subjective, is somewhat more complicated.
[11:04] Terence McKenna: You need to instrument your noggin and record a lot of low level operation signatures.
[11:04] Terence McKenna: Think of it as EEG on steroids.
[11:05] Terence McKenna: The virtual you need to show the same deep fingerprints of operation.
[11:05] You: i think the human brain learns to adjust. plasticity. but sometimes it can’t get back to the homeostasis before a certain event. that doesnt mean you wont feel like yourself per se
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Symantec makes those after 2042
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu: Neurological selftests. Nasal spray.
[11:05] Terence McKenna: Plasticity doesn’t happen on EEG time scale.
[11:05] You: … symantec still exists in 2042? :-O
[11:05] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:05] Terence McKenna: It’s not a simple hash of a file.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Let’s say we have a billion probes, and record the raw signals.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Then extract operation signatures, which run to many TByte/h recorded.
[11:06] You: i think the third one is the only sure way
[11:06] Khannea Suntzu: Yep lattice. Nanoids in the spaces between the neurons.
[11:06] Terence McKenna: Ina: I think that too.
[11:06] You: others use IQ tests to test themselves after lobotomuy
[11:06] You: *!u even
[11:07] You: ok
[11:07] Terence McKenna: Current technology can only record pretty crude signatures. I would think it’s enough for simple animal experiments.
[11:07] Terence McKenna: Anyways, uploading is being done. It’s called brain modelling, a branch of computational neuroscience.
[11:07] Khannea Suntzu: However what we should be scared about
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: Is if uploading is possible, other very scary things are also possible
[11:08] You: lol
[11:08] You: modeling isn’t uploading
[11:08] Terence McKenna: Definitely. Biologically inspired AI.
[11:08] You: that’s like data testing or buffing up a hdd
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: Modelling, uploading, it is all the road to tampering
[11:08] Terence McKenna: Ina, what do you think is the difference between a model, and a real thing?
[11:08] Khannea Suntzu: SUPER addictive stuff
[11:08] You: see, i don’t doubt that computers are capable of storing data
[11:08] You: lots of it
[11:08] You: (albeit not long term… )
[11:08] You: but
[11:08] You: the interfacing is a pickle
[11:08] You: well, it’s the difference between theory and implementation
[11:09] You: model vs the real thing that is
[11:09] Terence McKenna: With the current crude approach you would upload a simple critter, a body phantom, and an environment model.
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: Well if monkeys can grow a language gland, the modern brain can cache an interface nodule
[11:09] You: ?
[11:09] You: p.P
[11:09] Terence McKenna: There would be no need for interfacing. As I said, currently all approaches are destructive-scan. No original survives. Only copies.
[11:09] You: o.O
[11:09] Khannea Suntzu: We may need to grow the means to intyerface step by step
[11:10] You: ok..
[11:10] You: well without interfacing the technology is just theory…
[11:10] Terence McKenna: Computers can store data just fine, and if it’s in circulation that data is immortal.
[11:10] Terence McKenna: Ina, are you talking about nondestructive uploading?
[11:10] Terence McKenna: In any case you can’t allow the clone and the original diverge.
[11:10] You: say, the day when we can upload a human brain
[11:10] You: yup. no cloning theorem from quantum again…
[11:11] Terence McKenna: No, no, no. This has nothing to do with quantum mechanics.
[11:11] Terence McKenna: We’re talking about cloning state. Such as, keeping two running computers synchronized.
[11:11] Terence McKenna: Very basic seat-of-the-pants stuff.
[11:11] You: hm
[11:11] Terence McKenna: When you allow state of two formerly systems to bifurcate (fork) you’ve got two rapidly diverging indivduals.
[11:11] Khannea Suntzu: Who cares if we can upload, It will be much safer to simply replace cell by cell with more robust alternatives. You dont need to upload.
[11:12] You: two computers can’t be synchronized because…?
[11:12] Terence McKenna: At first much more similiar than identical twins, but they diverge exponentially. After a decade, it would be like a brother.
[11:12] You: o.O
[11:12] Terence McKenna: Two computers can be synchronized. But you’re talking about reading the state from your noggin into a computer, and keeping that synchronized with the origina.
[11:12] Khannea Suntzu: The only problem I see is legal. It is a form of procreation.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: There’s no point in doing that. You’re not experiencing anything new.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: And if the biology dies you can’t track that without losing bits yourself.
[11:13] Terence McKenna: So I would just nuke the original within a millisecond or so, and keep the copy. The copy is the original.
[11:13] Khannea Suntzu: Then *avoid* this dilemma
[11:14] Khannea Suntzu: Do the replacement gradual
[11:14] Terence McKenna: If you want to completely avoid, yes, exactly what Khannea says.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: However, if you die now, your only chance is cryonics.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: So the original will be destructively scanned.
[11:14] Terence McKenna: What most people do not realize that some of us might be immortal already.
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Well, I equate that treatment with a *really loud* electroshock. What is reconstructed is not neccessarilu acceeptable as me
[11:15] You: ?
[11:15] Terence McKenna: Disclaimer: assuming, cryonics works, and uploading works. Don’t sue me if you stay dead.
[11:15] You: already?
[11:15] You: haha!
[11:15] Terence McKenna: Khannea, I worked in cryonics for two years in R&D.
[11:15] Khannea Suntzu: Yes?
[11:15] You: did you get to revive anyone?
[11:16] Terence McKenna: I don’t think it’s anything as bad as you think it is. But, we don’t really know. All we know that we’ll get EEG regenerated from hippocampal slices.
[11:16] You: “we’ll”
[11:16] You: hmmm did you actually?
[11:16] Khannea Suntzu: I’ll assume it’ll be a very brutal experience. Damaging. Not lossless
[11:16] Terence McKenna: People who did it say it looks good. I haven’t seen it published yet.
[11:16] You: …
[11:16] Terence McKenna: Google for Cryobiology, and then look for Leitl.
[11:16] You: so… can we revive the early men who were frozen in the ice age?
[11:17] Terence McKenna: No. Modern cryonic suspension is something very different from freezing.
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: That is so *you* being into cryobiology. Fits with your reputation
[11:17] You: lol
[11:17] Terence McKenna: It’s called vitrification, and it’s very new. Not many people have been vitrified yet.
[11:17] Terence McKenna: It’s basically about avoiding the ice phase, and turning biological tissue into supercooled glass instead.
[11:17] Khannea Suntzu: Wow
[11:17] Terence McKenna: Supercooled *water* glass. Not ice.
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: That almost sounds hopeful
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Like a highresolution 3D photographic image of a person.
[11:18] Terence McKenna: It works similiar to the old cryonics techniques, except it uses novel ice blockers and novel cryoprotectants.
[11:18] Terence McKenna: The EM micrographs look very, very good. If I die, I want this to be done to me.
[11:18] Khannea Suntzu: Whats the current price for head>
[11:18] You: lol…
[11:19] Terence McKenna: 40 k$, IIRC. But you’re EUtrash, that won’t work.
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: To distant
[11:19] Terence McKenna: You can spend up to a week on water ice before you’re flown out.
[11:19] Khannea Suntzu: Meh
[11:19] You: what state would “supercooled water glass” be on a typical phase diagram? o.O
[11:19] Terence McKenna: Yes. You need to be processed on ice.
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: So if I were considering dying I’d have to fly to the US to await my processing
[11:20] You: so basically if you are decapitated, and your head is turned into supercooled glass, you can be revived?
[11:20] You: o.O
[11:20] Terence McKenna: You never change the phase. No enthalpy of ice formation. It just goes more viscious and viscuouser untill you’re literally at glass. It shatters very easily.
[11:20] Khannea Suntzu: Hey chris
[11:20] Christopher1983 Dreamscape: Hi
[11:20] Terence McKenna: Revived is too much to ask for. Most of the current damage occurs during devitrification during rewarming.
[11:20] Terence McKenna: Hi, Christopher.
[11:20] Christopher1983 Dreamscape: Hi
[11:21] You: melted glass.. entropy
[11:21] Terence McKenna: What we should see shortly is first viable renal implants.
[11:21] Khannea Suntzu: Indeed this treatment would require a very advanced uploading. Nothing else will work.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: We should see a very nice rehash of Suda’s work.
[11:21] You decline *Athena Isle, Second Shores (51, 48, 22) from A group member named Safra Jetcity.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: Yes, Khannea, exactly. Very astute.
[11:21] Terence McKenna: Nanoresurrection is your only other option.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Do not rewarm, go in at cryogenic temperature (-130 C and below) and process there.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Even more advanced than uploading.
[11:22] Terence McKenna: Whew, that was a lot of typing.
[11:22] You: hmm
[11:22] Terence McKenna: I think I’ll try voice at the next office hour slot.
[11:23] You: so basically, once you are cryogenically preserved, you can never be human again
[11:23] Terence McKenna: What does it mean to be human?
[11:23] Terence McKenna: Meat puppet?
[11:23] You: lol. actually, do you mind if i post a transcript of this on my new blog?
[11:23] You: this is the first interesting discussion i’ve had on this alt
[11:23] Terence McKenna: Sure, if you remove the typos. Very embarrassing.
[11:23] Khannea Suntzu: Heh and its only the first event
[11:23] You: hrm… yes meat puppet = human
[11:23] You: think… Matrix
[11:23] You: when the agents tell Neo he’s “only human”
[11:23] You: o.O
[11:24] Terence McKenna: Making a meat puppet from a corpsicle would be tough. Even tougher for a neuro patient (=frozen head).
[11:24] You: lol i’ve had a few typos too ;-P
[11:24] You: lol
[11:24] You: well if you de-freeze the head…
[11:24] Khannea Suntzu wonders how she can accumulate 40.000 euro in the next 20-30 years
[11:24] You: meat puppet occurs
[11:24] You: even if scrambled meat puppet…
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Ok now a scary question terence
[11:25] Terence McKenna: I’m a bit careful about nanotechnology, because it is rather tough. It certainly won’t arrive in our lifetimes, so you can’t expect to profit from in vivo or even nanoresurrection easily.
[11:25] You: 40k euro really isn’t much
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: To me it is
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Very much
[11:25] You: but i assume the technology varies in pricing
[11:25] Terence McKenna: Unfortunately, current prices are too cheap. Way too cheap.
[11:25] You: hrm… nanotech technically already exists
[11:25] Khannea Suntzu: Terence, say I would decide somewhere age 70 I would want to quit. Is there an unofficial way to synthesize a natural death?
[11:25] You: well if you count the “smart particles” the government uses in airports and such
[11:26] You: nano-ish
[11:26] Terence McKenna: The only way this is going to work is when cryonic suspension is the terminal part of the critical care medicine, and is payed by insurance.
[11:26] Terence McKenna: Ina, under nanotechnology most transhumanists understand MNT, aka nanorobotics
[11:26] Terence McKenna: Building objects basically by forming and breaking chemical bonds under numerical control.
[11:27] Terence McKenna: This is to what is commonly described as nanotechnolgy what a nuke is to a match.
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: ..yah
[11:27] Terence McKenna: Very different capabilities. Programmable matter.
[11:27] Khannea Suntzu: “naieve model”
[11:27] You: ^.~
[11:27] Terence McKenna: Atoms turning software. Ability to download blueprints, and have it extruded on site in minutes to hours.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Very, very scary shit, actually.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Most people don’t understand that it completely destroys the world as we know it.
[11:28] Terence McKenna: Most of what you do in SL can be done in reality, and more, far more.
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Trust me I know. The *SPIN OFF*
[11:28] You: lol
[11:28] Khannea Suntzu: Boggles the mind
[11:29] Terence McKenna: The game-changer is that nanotechnology allows you superintelligence, very soon.
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: Year?
[11:29] You: lol
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Also, it allows you to run at least a factor of million faster than now.
[11:29] You: sooner than when actual non destructive upload can occur?
[11:29] Khannea Suntzu: YEAR? *more insistent*
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Overnight is 3000 years? Something like that.
[11:29] You: i think the bar would have to do with the no cloning theorem. i’m
[11:29] You: a believer of the quantum brain
[11:29] Terence McKenna: Khannea, which year?
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu mutters angrily
[11:30] You: … and as for download atomic blueprints… yes, but once you read them, it would be destroyed
[11:30] Terence McKenna: Ina, I would be glad to disabuse you of your QC obsession (after all, I’m a quantum mechanic of sorts, by virtue of having had QC in school).
[11:30] Khannea Suntzu: I want I want I want
[11:30] You: lol
[11:30] Ina Infinity believes the human brain is basically quantum computer ;-P
[11:30] You: ^ strong conjecture o.O
[11:31] Terence McKenna: Ina, can you put shtetl-optimized into Google?
[11:31] You decline Extropia Central Nexus, Extropia Core (127, 100, 22) from A group member named Sophrosyne Stenvaag.
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Quantum is strange, the brain is strange so the brain must be quantum
[11:31] Terence McKenna: It’s Aaron Scottson’s blog, and there’s a wealth of knowledge about what QC can and cannot do there.
[11:31] You: quantum is pretty normal once you get used to it ;-P
[11:31] Khannea Suntzu: Then you dont understand it!
[11:32] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:32] You: bahhh
[11:32] Terence McKenna: Ina, I survived Quantum Chemistry III, it’s pretty vanilla to me.
[11:32] You: qcs can’t solve np’s in known time
[11:32] You: -.- let’s see him win the millennium prize
[11:32] You: ah i thought you were referring to quantum computing
[11:32] You: yah i took grad quantum too. but that’s just basic math though
[11:32] Terence McKenna: I only follow Quantum Cryptography and Quantum Computing at layman level.
[11:32] You: dunno stuff like what’s his name-eckard theorem. matrix mechanics.
[11:33] You: the no cloning theorem is jargon from quantum computing
[11:33] Terence McKenna: I’m a chemist by training, with molecular biology and polymer science sprinkled it, I’ve worked in cryobiology, and now I work in IT.
[11:33] You: but it’s based on basic qm though
[11:33] Terence McKenna: Yes, but no-cloning only applies to entangled pairs.
[11:33] You: lol trying to make the computers to upload brains to, now? ;-P
[11:34] Terence McKenna: Actually, I went into chemistry because I wanted to do nanotechnology since highschool.
[11:34] You: yes..
[11:34] You: typically nanotech majors would be bioengineering…
[11:34] Khannea Suntzu: Hmm he is bald. Check. he talks funny, check. Cigar, check. Doctor evil.
[11:34] You: but it’s good you studied a traditional major… *engineering is really b/s nowadays
[11:34] Terence McKenna: Actually, you can clone despite non-cloning, and with efficiency high enough that quantum cryptography is not nearly that secure people think it is.
[11:35] Terence McKenna: In any case, you should look into biophysics of computation.
[11:35] Terence McKenna: The noise level there completely cooks your quantum weirdness, if any.
[11:35] You: oh?
[11:36] You: well noise has to do with limitations in measurement… why should that cook qw?
[11:36] Terence McKenna: If you look at major people (Koch, for instance), they point and laugh at Penroses of this world.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: No. Noise is intrinsic to the system.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Brownian noise. Thermal noise.
[11:36] Terence McKenna: Neural hardware is quite amazing, because it works very close to what is possible at its noise level.
[11:37] Terence McKenna: In fact, it manages to use the noise to enhance information processing.
[11:37] Terence McKenna: Ina, since you’ve got scientific training, can I recommend you some very good textbooks on the problem?
[11:38] Terence McKenna: Hmm, should I give some references?
[11:38] You: lol
[11:38] You: sure..
[11:39] You: although i don’t do this stuff anymore.
[11:39] You: nowadays i’m just an artist ^.~
[11:39] Terence McKenna: Anyways, a good soft book on the problem is “The Quest for Consciousness — a Neurobiological Approach” by Christof Koch.
[11:39] Terence McKenna: If you’re not afraid of math, two grad to postdoc level books are.
[11:39] You: oh math <3
[11:39] You: nah math was always the easy thing
[11:39] Terence McKenna: "Spikes -- exploring the neural code" by Rieke, Warland et al.
[11:39] Khannea Suntzu: Ya have a nice book for me too, something with popup pics?
[11:40] You: ok, but anyway though... brownian noise -- isn't that quantum?
[11:40] You: well, yes, it occurs on the molecular level
[11:40] Terence McKenna: "Biophysics of computation -- information processing in single neurons" by Christof Koch.
[11:40] You: but... its a "macro" quantum effect?
[11:40] You: khannea - "the quantum universe"
[11:40] You: or just read "the emperor's new mind"
[11:40] You: i read that in high school
[11:40] Terence McKenna: Khannea, the Quest for Consciousness one is very good. Almost no math.
[11:40] You: i guess that turned me into a penrose groupie o.O
[11:41] Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmm ok
[11:41] Terence McKenna: In fact, no math at all. I just checked.
[11:41] You: books without math are scary. too many words -.-
[11:41] Terence McKenna: Yes, but the Quest for Consciousness is for philosophers, and normal people.
[11:42] Angelica Losangeles is Offline
[11:42] Terence McKenna: Anyways, Ina, read the Biophysics of Computation one.
[11:42] Angelica Losangeles is Online
[11:42] Terence McKenna: It illustrates all level of computation occuring in cells and below, some of them speculative.
[11:42] Terence McKenna: He explicitly addresses the quantum computation hypothesis, and why it's unlikely to be true.
[11:43] You: unlikely ^.~
[11:43] Terence McKenna: Even is quantum processing occurs, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
[11:43] Terence McKenna: When you're drinking a cup of strong coffee, it changes you far more than the most delicate QC could buffer.
[11:43] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:44] Khannea Suntzu: Good lSD trip?
[11:44] Terence McKenna: You're developing, you're changing in the course of your normal life.
[11:44] You: lol
[11:44] Terence McKenna: Yes, LSD is pretty disruptive, as well. Way stronger than coffee.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: You're still thinking your identity is conserved, even after some pretty harrowing things.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: So, no need to assume that vitrifying your noggin will lose some of the magic, enough to drop the you on the floor.
[11:45] Terence McKenna: But, read the book, and see for yourself.
[11:45] Khannea Suntzu: Oh I know what a fragile mess sanity and identity is, trust me. Most people dont have an idea just how tenous all that is.,
[11:45] A group member named Mia Lundquist gave you Mia Lundquist Galleries Annex, Gorlanova (140, 37, 43).
[11:46] Terence McKenna: These people should take a strong dose of hallucinogenics, and be prepared to be scared shitless.
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: Love, I get migraines and if I get them 2-3 weeks nonstop every day
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: My mind simply desintegrates
[11:46] Khannea Suntzu: I lose myself and I feel like I am dying
[11:46] Terence McKenna: Ouch. I've hard very bad things about that. Auras, too?
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: The worst diagnosed migarines in the netherlands. Top ten stuff.
[11:47] Terence McKenna: Jesus fuck. I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: It's life.
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: Shit happens
[11:47] Khannea Suntzu: Thats why I was out a month last year
[11:47] Terence McKenna now understands
[11:48] Khannea Suntzu: Yah life goes on.
[11:48] You: wow..
[11:48] Terence McKenna: Do you have something that triggers it, or do they appear nevertheless?
[11:48] You: would you go for that cryo stuff?
[11:49] Terence McKenna: It would be murder, though probably legal in Netherlands, and Switzerland (but only for natives).
[11:49] You: meh. get a doctor to approve your request for euthanasia
[11:49] You: and ...
[11:49] You: a weird procedure for it
[11:49] You: and voila.
[11:49] Khannea Suntzu: Chocolate, stress, banana, some nuns, fat food, sleeping too much, sleeping not enough, understimulation, overstimulation
[11:49] Terence McKenna: It would be still murder.
[11:49] Khannea Suntzu: The list goes on
[11:50] Terence McKenna: Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry we can do nothing. At least not yet.
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: It would be a bit sad if after freezing my corpse get flown back for an autopsy
[11:50] Terence McKenna: I think autopsy is mandatory?
[11:50] Khannea Suntzu: Yah in holland it is, slightest doubt
[11:50] You: so when can we do something o.O
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: And that always includes cranial testing and drilling
[11:51] Terence McKenna: I'm not up on migraine therapy. I'd hazard decades, if at all.
[11:51] Terence McKenna: Yes, the whole bit. You'd be not only dead, you'd be information-theoretically dead.
[11:51] Khannea Suntzu: They just did a study. The amount of microscarring in longterm migraine victims was comparable to people who survived hard car crashes
[11:52] Terence McKenna: Aargh. So it is slow death, in increments.
[11:52] Khannea Suntzu: Thats the worrying bit
[11:52] Terence McKenna: We vanillas save most of it for the years and especially for the final weeks in the geriatrics ward.
[11:53] Terence McKenna: We're just as mush as you, if not more, when it's all over.
[11:53] Khannea Suntzu: Yah but that shit dont hurt
[11:53] Terence McKenna: "I can feel my mind going, Dave".
[11:53] Terence McKenna: No, it doesn't hurt.
[11:53] Khannea Suntzu giggles
[11:54] Terence McKenna: I've been reading the critical care medicine list in the last half decade, or so. Quite interesting things to be gleaned there, after a while.
[11:54] Khannea Suntzu: I think 20 years would be enough for some damage control yes.
[11:54] Terence McKenna: Is it radical-driven?
[11:54] FWord Utorid is Online
[11:54] Terence McKenna: Have you tried antioxidants, especially R-lipoate?
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: I tried vitamins. C. Triggers attacks.
[11:55] Terence McKenna: I would also try acetyl-l-carnitine, but *very* carefully. It can trigger epileptic seizures in suszeptibles, and migraine might be related.
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: Only thing which stops attacks is hypothermia
[11:55] Khannea Suntzu: But thats a bit crude
[11:56] Terence McKenna: R-lipoate might work, but I would be careful with it, too.
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: I'll look into it
[11:56] Terence McKenna: Just a hunch. Based on no idea whatsoever.
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: My therapist came up with anticonvulsants. Antiepileptics
[11:56] Khannea Suntzu: I got into serious trouble with the depakine
[11:57] You have offered friendship to Khannea Suntzu
[11:57] You have offered friendship to Terence McKenna
[11:57] Khannea Suntzu: Bah enough of this
[11:57] Khannea Suntzu is Online
[11:57] Terence McKenna: Then, you should stay away from acetyl-l-carnitine. Unfortunately, it's rather synergistic with the R-lipoate. But, R-lipoate should do fine wihout.
[11:57] Terence McKenna is Online
[11:57] You: i'm hopping over to a dr dobbs meeting
[11:57] Terence McKenna: Thanks, Ina.
[11:57] You: interesting discussion you two ;-P
[11:57] You: look forward to more
[11:57] You: ttyl!
[11:57] Terence McKenna: What's going on at Dr. Dobbs?
[11:58] You: something about the tech museum
[11:58] Terence McKenna: Allright, have fun. Thanks for being with us.
[11:58] You: np. thanks again
[11:58] You: have fun ^.~
[11:58] You: *poofs

A 25-year old American polymath of Taiwanese ancestry pretending to be old and Caucasian in Second Life. Semi-retired independent scholar also dabbling as an independent artist in new media, particularly theatre and the humanities—notably Shakespeare. Programmer, playwright and novelist. Formal academic background in http://portfolio.inacentaur.com/ina/scientist, philosophy, and bioengineering.

This is largely a personal blog which isn't always up-to-date. There's no one definitive way to stalk me ;-).