Java is a toy programming language and anybody who sticks to it and claims it can compete with C/C++ either doesn't have what it takes to program in C/C++ or they are just an inferior programmer. Period.

As a programmer you are a bad joke if you 'prefer' your toy programming languages and the 'toy' managed environments they run in. Sorry but facts are facts.

that's it. I'm done. You have completely lept off the deep end in unreasonable fanboy ranting.

Let me guess: Scala and Clojure are also joke languages?

James Gosling, Martin Odersky, Doug Lea, all these master, renown programmers have been strong proponents of Java. Google has much of their server side code in Java. Yahoo search and later Bing was written in Hadoop + Java. You think all these guys are bad jokes? Are those toy projects?

BTW, I've been a C/C++ guru, a well respected expert, worked in purely C/C++ for over a decade, and worked on major C/C++ compilers. Languages are tools to do a job. C/C++ has it's use cases where it excels. Specifically, when you want a really low level tool, C/C++ is really the only major option. It also has design flaws and legacy baggage that other newer languages handle better. For games and general GUI apps it probably isn't the best fit.

04-21-2013, 01:41 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLamb

that's it. I'm done. You have completely lept off the deep end in unreasonable fanboy ranting.

Let me guess: Scala and Clojure are also joke languages?

We don't need hobbyist and endless reinventions of the wheel, yes - because all it does in the end is get in the way of 'portability'.

How do you seriously entertain this 'idea' that 'Java' is about 'cross platform' and 'portability'? It is NOT. How can it be since that would involve having to port a Java VM to every one of those devices?

The only thing that is portable is 'C' - hence why it once stood for 'Portable Assembler'. Even C++is not portable enough from that perspective.

Anybody saying that any higher-level language is about 'portability' frankly doesn't have a clue what they are actually talking about. I'll never be able to run a Java program on an Xbox1 or a Nintendo Gamecube (because those systems are 'deserted') - but I am able to do that just fine with a C program. There goes your 'portability' argument right out of the window without me even trying - because I actually practice what I preach.

Quote:

Google has much of their server side code in Java.

Google is a shit company. I don't care what they do and I don't fall for their propaganda and marketing spiel. Them buying Android and sticking to its initial premise so heavily (a crappy OS meant initially for a 'digital camera' until they found out there was zero marketshare for that thing - then they went bankrupt and got bought out by Google) only solidifies my suspicions that this is the modernday Microsoft - and no, that is not a compliment. Buying other people's shit and making up crappy excuses as to why the shit they bought is well, 'shit', after tons of revisions.

I know a lot of FLOSStards love Google though - why I cannot profess to know - it beats the other people I talk to as well. But you will find out soon enough just how much of a 'friend' they are to your cause - don't worry. Mindless acolytes always get confronted with the 'truth' in the end, and that's when a lot of butthurt will be felt.

04-21-2013, 02:02 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanLamb

that's it. I'm done. You have completely lept off the deep end in unreasonable fanboy ranting.

Let me guess: Scala and Clojure are also joke languages?

BTW - I had to look these two up since I really don't know about the damn things (and why would you, frankly, waste even one minute of your life on this utopian 'let's reinvent the wheel dozens of times' claptrap?) -

Quote:

It is intended to be compiled to Java bytecode (the executable JVM ) or .Net. Both platforms are officially supported by the EPFL.
Like Java, Scala is statically typed and object-oriented, uses a curly-brace syntax reminiscent of C, and compiles code into Java bytecode, allowing Scala code to be run on the JVM and permitting Java libraries to be freely called from Scala (and vice-versa) without the need for a glue layer in-between.

Quote:

Clojure runs on the Java Virtual Machine, Common Language Runtime, and JavaScript engines.

Seriously, and you have to ask me if it is a 'toy language' when all you have to do is google it and read the first sentence on Wikipedia?

Are you people even for real or is this all a bad prank? Does your silly 'toy language' fetishization know no limits? Do you guys actually earn 'money' writing in 'new language flavor of the month' or is this all 'fun hobbyist projects' at the side?

You go ahead and make the argument to Torvalds that he should rewrite the Linux kernel in Java, or to the ffmpeg devs that 'hey, you should really rewrite all this shit in Go, man, because all this stuff about 'better runtime performance' in C vs. 'my favorite higher-level toy language' is just a big myth'. See what kind of a response you will get.

Trust me - my responses are very 'reasonable' compared to the responses you will get from them.

04-21-2013, 02:27 PM

Larian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

Funny that you should be talking to a guy who has delivered way more in terms of 'cross-platform portability' than any of you on this forum.

Seriously - come back to me when you can get modern codebases to compile correctly with a 2003-class MS compiler and when you are maintaining 10 to 12 different platforms with one codebase - and then multiply that by 20 projects.

Oh yeah - all of this while getting the best performance possible on all of those 12 host systems - which you can pretty much forget if you are going down this Java claptrap path. Not to mention that most of these platforms don't even have a Java VM available.

Seriously son - come back to me when you know what 'cross-platform' and 'portability' actually means. ProTip - it doesn't mean being locked into anyone's particular shitty VM nor does it mean targeting an awful language 'governed' by Oracle.

Firstly sir, we are not related. I take your use of the word "son" to be a term of opprobrium, and I would thank you to show me the same level of respect that I show you.

Secondly, you seem to have misunderstood my argument. I am not championing Java or any other language. It has its uses and I recognize that. I find it strange that you do not.

Quote:

You're going to cite Mojang as a 'posterboy' for Java game programming? Seriously?

I'm citing Mojang as a counterfactual to your claim that game programmers universally turn their noses up at Java. Further, you completely missed the part where I said that end-users - the ones who pay for your software - don't care about your programming CV. But a posterboy for Java game programming? Sure. Why not? I know who Notch is and can recognize him on sight. I have no idea who you are or what you've actually done. I'd say that makes him a posterboy for what can be accomplished with Java.

It's not the language you choose or "how it would've been done in the old days" before the Internet was really a thing. It's what you do with the tools you've got. You can rip Minecraft if you really want, but it's pathetic zealotry ... and I wouldn't be surprised to find a little jealousy has crept in there somewhere too. Is the game inefficient? Probably. But if I can run it on my shitty Kindle Fire, it can't be too demanding. And on top of all that - trumping all that - the game is fun and playable. That's what matters.

But wait... are you claiming that we're just throwing power at the problem and hoping it goes away in a couple of hardware generations? I don't think you want to play that game either. Will RAGE run on a Windows 98 machine? Of course not. There's not even enough disk space available to install it. But if there were, would it run in a playable manner? Highly unlikely. So does that mean the code is inefficient and just icky, or that you tried to implement the code on woefully inept hardware and deserve what you get?

In closing, I've been reading back over your posts, and I'm going to have to formally call you on your BS. I have no doubt you're the greatest programmer that you've ever met. But I'm sure there's nothing you do that I can't. Bjarne Stroustrup didn't write C++ and give it to you for your birthday you know. This probably hits you right in the pride, but you might want to face the fact that nobody cares about sensational claims of vague awesomeness backed by (as far as I can tell) nothing. And before you start questioning my programming ability, I'm not making any claims other than my job is solving hard problems and I think you're full of it.

04-21-2013, 02:32 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larian

Firstly sir, we are not related. I take your use of the word "son" to be a term of opprobrium, and I would thank you to show me the same level of respect that I show you.

Secondly, you seem to have misunderstood my argument. I am not championing Java or any other language. It has its uses and I recognize that. I find it strange that you do not.

I'm citing Mojang as a counterfactual to your claim that game programmers universally turn their noses up at Java. Further, you completely missed the part where I said that end-users - the ones who pay for your software - don't care about your programming CV. But a posterboy for Java game programming? Sure. Why not? I know who Notch is and can recognize him on sight. I have no idea who you are or what you've actually done. I'd say that makes him a posterboy for what can be accomplished with Java.

It's not the language you choose or "how it would've been done in the old days" before the Internet was really a thing. It's what you do with the tools you've got. You can rip Minecraft if you really want, but it's pathetic zealotry ... and I wouldn't be surprised to find a little jealousy has crept in there somewhere too.

Jealous of what? Fame? Money? A shitty engine that looks worse than a 1996 software-rendered game - ie. Quake? A game engine that tells you with a straight face that 4GB of RAM is 'not enough' or that chugs like hell unless you're running it on a Core i7?

Quote:

Is the game inefficient? Probably. But if I can run it on my shitty Kindle Fire, it can't be too demanding.

If your job is about 'solving hard problems', then surely you could have solved the little 'problem' in your 'argument' here -

the 'Minecraft' you're running on your Kindle Fire is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a Java-based app. None of the 'mobile' versions of Minecraft are. It's written in C++.

Now you go and guess why that is, son? They were probably 'really stupid' in doing so because 'Java is just as fast', right Junior?

Quote:

And on top of all that - trumping all that - the game is fun and playable. That's what matters.

Your 'definition' of fun must be very different from mine. But then again, you are probably in your late teens/early twenties and are not of my generation.

The 'indie games' you think are so high and mighty frankly for the most part consist of SNES game rejects that would have been laughed at by any SNES/Genesis gamer back in the day. (newsflash - those games looked the way they did due to technical restrictions and no, not due to inadequacy - indie 'devs' might want to take note). Another case of degeneration right there - the shitty 'indie games' that are held up as 'innovative' and 'great'. Ie. Jonathan Blow's tired 'Mario Bros with rewind' clone gets held up as a 'masterpiece' and the same for his soon-to-be 'Myst clone'.

04-21-2013, 02:40 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by BO$$

The real reason NDK even exists is because they wanted to get cavemen like you to use android. Most of the game companies have extensive code written in C++ that would have been hard to rewrite. That is the reason. Not performance. Not even close.

I'll happily be a caveman to your 'troglodyte'.

Note - you might have to look that word up - it's not part of the 'brogrammer's' language.

04-21-2013, 02:44 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by BO$$

The '40s called. They need someone with good knowledge of eniac's low level workings.... And yes Java is portable. They write the JVM so you don't have to rewrite your program. That is portability from the end-user point of view. And nobody writes for XBox1 for fuck's sake.

And this is why a run-off-the-mill Java app like Glassfish runs fine on one Java VM and yet not on the other - because it's just 'soooooo portable'.

Java programmers as ever - too stupid to figure out that when they're about to shoot, their rifle is aimed at their feet and they are in risk of losing their legs in the process.

04-21-2013, 02:45 PM

Squarepusher

Quote:

Originally Posted by BO$$

Google is a shit company?? They handle more queries per second than you can possibly count!

Of course they do - their partnership with the NSA has paid off dividends Sherlock. Doesn't mean they don't suck.

04-21-2013, 02:48 PM

Larian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

Jealous of what? Fame? Money? A shitty engine that looks worse than a 1996 software-rendered game - ie. Quake? A game engine that tells you with a straight face that 4GB of RAM is 'not enough' or that chugs like hell unless you're running it on a Core i7?

If your job is about 'solving hard problems', then surely you could have solved this little 'problem' for yourself -

the 'Minecraft' you're running on your Kindle Fire is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a Java-based app. None of the 'mobile' versions of Minecraft are.

Now you go and guess why that is, son?

Your 'definition' of fun must be very different from mine. But then again, you are probably in your late teens/early twenties and are not of my generation.

The 'indie games' you think are so high and mighty frankly for the most part consist of SNES game rejects that would have been laughed at by any SNES/Genesis gamer back in the day. (newsflash - those games looked the way they did due to technical restrictions and no, not due to inadequacy - indie 'devs' might want to take note). Another case of degeneration right there - the shitty 'indie games' that are held up as 'innovative' and 'great'. Ie. Jonathan Blow's tired 'Mario Bros with rewind' clone gets held up as a 'masterpiece' and the same for his soon-to-be 'Myst clone'.

Okay, you're just being rude for the sake of doing it now. You either can't or won't attempt to understand what I'm saying to you, and you refuse to show me the least bit of respect. You're the mental midget who's out of touch with reality here, not me. You live in the "glory" of the past, and want all the kids to get off your lawn. But you're irrelevant.

Hmm. You don't know anything about me, my tastes, or my preferences. But I admire how you don't let that stop you from forging ahead with baseless accusations. And as to my age? I think I should probably be calling you "son". But I don't do that because I'm not an ass. (You've lost all semblance of being deserving of respect at this point, yet I persist because I'm better than you.)

So maintain your moldy code base and never touch anything other than C++. Let other stupid people code in those newfangled languages whilst you make those Gamecube ports. However, if you actually want to have a civil and useful discussion, I'm willing to give you another shot. If not, then that's great too. Just crawl off and die somewhere where the rest of us won't be distracted by the smell.