Exhibit B
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her
capacity as Executor of the Estate
of CLARA SPYER,
Plaintiff,
-against-
10-CV-8435
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendant.
-------------------------------------(Caption continued on next page.)
DEPOSITION OF LETITIA ANNE PEPLAU, Ph.D.,
Friday, June 17, 2011
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 2
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT
-------------------------------------JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN,
GERALD V. PASSARO II,
LYNDA DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN,
JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS,
SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS,
BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE, and
DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS,
310 CV 1750
Plaintiffs,
(VLB)
v.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT,
TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official
capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury,
and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official
capacity as the Secretary of Labor,
MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official
capacity as the Commissioner of the
Social Security Administration,
UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, JOHN
E. POTTER, in his official capacity as
The Postmaster General of the United
States of America,
DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official
capacity as the Commissioner of Internal
Revenue,
ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official
capacity as United States Attorney General,
JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as
Acting Comptroller of the Currency, and
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendants.
--------------------------------------
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 3
1
2
3
DEPOSITION OF LETITIA ANNE PEPLAU, Ph.D.,
4
an Expert Witness herein, taken by Defendant,
5
pursuant to Agreement, at the offices of Paul
6
Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison, LLP, 1285 Avenue
7
of the Americas, New York, New York, on Friday,
8
June 17, 2011, at 10:40 a.m., before Margaret Eustace,
9
a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
and for the State of New York.
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 11
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
A.
Yes, I have.
3
Q.
How many times?
4
A.
I have testified twice.
5
Q.
Have you ever been excluded as an
6
expert in a case?
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
Do you know the plaintiffs in both
9
these cases?
10
A.
No, I don't.
11
Q.
You have never met any of them?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
I know the answer to this, but I will
14
ask it for the record:
Are you an attorney?
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
I would like to go into the question
17
of sexuality.
18
How do you define homosexuality?
19
A.
20
would use.
21
of the broader term of sexual orientation.
22
That is what I addressed in my affidavit.
23
24
25
Q.
Homosexuality isn't actually a term I
I would think of it in the terms
How would you define sexual
orientation?
A.
I would define sexual orientation as
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 12
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
an enduring set of emotional sexual
3
attractions towards men, toward women or
4
toward both.
5
I would as well define sexual
6
orientation as including a person's identity
7
as gay or lesbian or heterosexual or bisexual.
8
And I would also include it under the rubric
9
of sexual orientation related behavior.
For
10
example, forming a relationship with a person
11
of the same sex or of the other sex.
12
Q.
Within the definition of sexual
13
orientation, do you define gay differently
14
from that?
15
16
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
I think the term gay is used in a
17
variety of ways.
It is one of the sexual
18
orientation identity labels that some people
19
might adopt.
20
commonly used with regard to men, but it is
21
sometimes used in a generic way to apply to
22
women as well.
The term is, I think, most
23
Q.
How would you define lesbian?
24
A.
I think of lesbian as an identity
25
label or category that would be used for women
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
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L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
whose enduring attractions are toward other
3
women.
4
Q.
How would you define bisexual?
5
A.
Again, I would define it as an
6
identity label for a person whose emotional
7
and romantic and sexual attraction are towards
8
persons of both sexes.
9
10
Q.
different definitions of sexual orientation?
11
12
Do different fields of study use
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
You know, I really am not an expert
13
on how philosophy or political science or
14
other fields might define sexual orientation.
15
So I don't have a good answer for that
16
question.
17
Q.
18
19
What about in the social sciences?
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
You know, I am a psychologist, so the
20
definition of sexual orientation that I use
21
and that I am most familiar with is one that
22
is -- has been used by the American
23
Psychological Association, which is our
24
national professional association, it has been
25
used by them in their educational materials
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
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1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
for the public and for practitioners.
3
widely accepted definition within psychology,
4
but I really couldn't tell you what is a
5
standard sociology definition of sexual
6
orientation would be.
7
MR. DUGAN:
It is a
I am going to have
8
this marked Exhibit 3.
This is the APA
9
answers to your questions.
10
(APA answers were marked as
11
Defendants' Exhibit 3 for
12
identification.)
13
Q.
Dr. Peplau, do you recognize this
14
document?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
What is this document?
17
A.
It's a document prepared by the
18
American Psychological Association.
It is
19
called "Answers to your questions."
20
been prepared as an educational material by
21
the APA.
It has
22
Q.
I direct you to page 2 of this
23
document.
24
causes a person to have a particular sexual
25
orientation?"
There is a question that says, What
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 15
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L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
And I will read this in for the
3
record.
4
"There is no consensus amongst
5
scientists about the exact reasons that an
6
individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual,
7
gay or lesbian orientation.
8
research has examined the possible genetic,
9
hormonal, developmental, social and cultural
10
influences on sexual orientation no findings
11
have emerged that permit scientists to
12
conclude that sexual orientation is determined
13
by any particular factor or factors.
14
think that nature and nuture both play complex
15
roles.
16
choice about their sexual orientation."
17
Do you agree with this?
Although much
Many
Most people experience little or no
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And is this a consensus for you
20
amongst scientists?
21
MR. BENSON:
22
A.
Object to the form.
I think it is a widespread view.
23
There are many ideas here, but in the main, I
24
think the ideas that the causes of sexual
25
orientation are not understood is an idea that
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
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1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
is accepted by many researchers.
3
Q.
Would it fair to say that scientists
4
don't know what causes a particular sexual
5
orientation?
6
A.
I will say that.
7
Q.
Paragraph 11 of your expert report
8
you stated --
9
10
MR. BENSON:
record.
11
12
Exhibit 2 for the
MR. DUGAN:
Q.
Yes.
-- you stated that, "It is well
13
established that homosexuality is a normal
14
expression of human sexuality."
15
16
17
What do you mean by "normal" in
that sentence?
A.
What I really mean is explained in
18
the following sentence, which says, "It is not
19
a mental illness, and being gay or lesbian has
20
no inherent association with a person's
21
ability to lead a happy, healthy or productive
22
life or to contribute to society."
23
I mean it in that way, that
24
homosexuality is part of a wide array of forms
25
of sexual orientation and that there is
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 18
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
one that suggests that unlike some of the past
3
views that linked sexual orientation with
4
mental health that that is a view that
5
psychologists and I no longer accept.
6
7
Q.
sexual orientation.
8
9
10
I want to go back to the question of
Is there a difference between sexual
orientation and sexual attraction?
A.
I think sexual orientation is a
11
fairly broad term that encompasses many
12
components, and attraction would be one of the
13
ingredients of sexual orientation.
14
15
Q.
the American population is homosexual?
16
17
Do scientists know what percentage of
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
There are a variety of estimates that
18
have been made based on research projects.
19
So, for example, in the national
20
representative probability sample by Laumann
21
and others, a project I reference, they used
22
people's sexual orientation identity
23
self-definition of being lesbian, gay or
24
bisexual or heterosexual.
25
And according to their data,
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 19
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
somewhere between 1 and 2 percent of women
3
identified as lesbian, and somewhere between 2
4
and 3 percent of men identified as gay.
5
think that's a reasonable estimate, using
6
self-identification as a measure of sexual
7
orientation.
8
9
Q.
Have these estimates varied
throughout time?
10
11
And I
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
It is fairly new that we have
12
estimates based on representative probability
13
samples.
14
and others, there were certainly estimates
15
that were based on nonrepresentative samples
16
and sometimes those estimate were different.
And so prior to research by Laumann
17
Q.
You cite Dr. Kinsey's work.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
I believe he said that -- he had that
20
famous 10 percent number about homosexuals.
21
Has that number been discredited?
22
MR. BENSON:
23
A.
Yes.
Objection to form.
I would say that people have a
24
better understanding of Kinsey's numbers, that
25
Kinsey's sample of men, just where the number
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 20
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
comes from was not representative, and that it
3
is, I think, now widely believed to have been
4
too large a number.
5
Q.
Does the percentage of people who
6
consider themselves homosexual differ in
7
different areas of the country?
8
9
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
The data that I know that have
10
representative samples are not differentiated
11
by region of the country.
12
Laumann data are not differentiated by region,
13
so I don't have a basis for answering that
14
question.
15
Q.
16
The term LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexual
and transgender, what does that term mean?
17
18
For instance, the
MR. BENSON:
A.
Object to the form.
Sometimes when people are trying to
19
find a shorthand way to talk about people who
20
are not sort of traditionally heterosexual,
21
they will use acronyms.
22
really just a way of saying here are a set of
23
people.
24
might be an LGBT resource center for students,
25
and that would be a center that provided
And I think that's
For instance, in many colleges there
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 25
1
2
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
homosexual acts?
3
MR. BENSON:
4
Same objection.
5
A.
Object to the form.
You know, how I would classify such a
6
person would depend on the goal of the
7
research project.
8
interested in studying the transmission of
9
sexually transmitted diseases might be
Researchers who are
10
particularly interested in studying men who
11
have sex with men regardless of whether they
12
identify as heterosexual or gay.
13
that is commonly used for that for those men
14
is men who have sex with men, MSM.
15
Q.
16
And a term
birth?
17
18
Can sexual orientation be defined at
MR. BENSON:
A.
Objection to form.
What research shows is that people
19
come to understand their sexual orientation
20
most typically during adolescence, so I would
21
say that looking at a newborn, I would not be
22
able to tell you what that child's sexual
23
orientation is going to be.
24
25
Q.
In paragraph 15 of Exhibit 2, you
describe the continuum of sexual orientation.
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
Page 36
1
L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
(Copy of paper by Herek Norton
3
Allen and Sims was marked as
4
Defendants' Exhibit 4 for
5
identification.)
6
Q.
Do you recognize that, Dr. Peplau?
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
What is that?
9
A.
This is a copy of the paper by Herek
10
Norton Allen and Sims that I was referring to
11
in paragraph 25.
12
13
Q.
If I could have you turn to page 186,
which is table 3 of this article.
14
You wrote, "95 percent of gay men
15
experience no choice at all or very little
16
choice about their sexual orientation."
17
Looking at table 3, is it fair to say
18
that nearly 7 percent of gay men felt that
19
they had a small amount of choice in their
20
sexuality and 5.2 percent said that they
21
experienced a fair amount or a great deal of
22
choice in their sexuality?
23
MR. BENSON:
24
25
Q.
Objection to form.
Let me split that up.
Is it fair to say that 7 percent of
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
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L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
gay men felt that they had a small amount of
3
choice in their sexuality?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
And is it fair to say that 5.2
6
percent experienced a fair amount or great
7
deal of choice in their sexuality?
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
With regard to lesbians, doesn't the
10
study show that 31.6 percent of lesbian women
11
experience a small amount or a fair amount of
12
choice in their sexuality?
13
MR. BENSON:
14
Compound.
15
Q.
Objection to form.
I will split that up.
16
Does this study show that 15.2
17
percent of lesbians experience a small amount
18
of choice in their sexual orientation?
19
A.
Yes, that's what the study shows.
20
Q.
And does this study show that 16.4
21
percent of lesbians experience a fair amount
22
or a great deal of choice in their sexual
23
orientation?
24
A.
Yes, that's what this study shows.
25
Q.
And looking at the last column there,
Letitia Anne Peplau
June 17, 2011
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L.A. Peplau, Ph.D.
2
on table 3, if one factors in gays, lesbians
3
and bisexuals, both bisexual men and women,
4
isn't it true that 14.2 percent experience a
5
small amount of choice in their sexual
6
orientation?
7
A.
Yes, that's what the table shows.
8
Q.
Is it true that 25.2 percent
9
10
11
experience a fair amount or a great deal of
choice in their sexual orientation?
A.
So just so I am clear, what we are
12
doing here is we are adding in bisexuals, who
13
are people who are attracted to both men and
14
women, and when you do that you find that the
15
percent of lumping together lesbians, gay men
16
and bisexuals who report they have a fair
17
amount or a great deal of choice is 25
18
percent.
19
20
And, yes, that's what the table
shows.
21
MR. DUGAN:
Mark that Exhibit 5.
22
(Paper by Greg Herek was
23
marked as Defendants' Exhibit 5
24
for identification.)
25
Q.
Do you recognize Exhibit 5,
Name of Cases:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR,
in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of THEA CLARA SPYER,
Plaintiff,
v.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendant.
(10 Civ. 8435) (BSJ) (JCF)
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT
JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA
DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS,
SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE,
and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS,
Plaintiffs,
v.
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official
capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity
as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the
Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL
SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the
United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the
Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as
United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting
Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendants.
(310-CV-1750) (VLB)
Date of Deposition:
Friday, June 17, 2011
Name of Witness:
Letitia Anne Peplau, Ph.D.
Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
I wish to make the following changes, for the following reasons:
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“I see against relationships of lesbians and gay men.”
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“I see—where it says, ‘The relationships of lesbians and gay men’”
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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“All close same sex relationships between friends, relatives,
coworkers, acquaintances or others which shall be considered
homosexual relationships.”
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“Of all close same-sex relationships between friends, relatives,
coworkers, acquaintances, or others, which shall be considered
homosexual relationships?”
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“harms not individuals in legal same sex marriage but gay men,
lesbians and bisexuals as a group.”
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“harm not only individuals in legal same-sex marriages, but
gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals as a group.”
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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Letitia Anne Peplau Errata Sheet for June 17, 2011 Deposition
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8

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