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Topic: Grace vs Works (Read 2264 times)

What is grace? What is the difference between "grace" and "works" and how do they relate? What I mean: what puts us in a favourable place with God? Is it grace, is it works, is it both? Which first? Can we earn divine bliss outside of grace? Can we earn or way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Like an accounting : I do that you owe me this ? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting manner?

Works are important, however, even if we do everything "right"...it's only through God's Grace that we obtain salvation.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Works are important, however, even if we do everything "right"...it's only through God's Grace that we obtain salvation.

If we can do everything right and that wouldn't count, than it does not matter what we do, but what God does. Where does that put morality and a moral code?

Also how would you define grace? And is there any account on which grace is given? Can one who makes more effort to do works fail in front of one who doesn't do absolutely anything but trusts in God's grace of has God's grace? Again on account to which is this grace given, and what does gace mean? Also can talents be achieved through hard work and practice? What i mean is several people have what is called "gifted talents". Can others earn and achieve this talents even if they were not given to them? Can people achieve any talents, graces, gifts, divine provisions, even if it was not given to them by birth? Does one have the right to claim that, or he would be just fighting and opposing divine's will ? What about people who are born dissabilitated or less good looking? Do they have the right to claim that and act upon it, through estethic medicine or whatever? Are estetic operations wrong(a sin) ? If they can than why did God made them like that in the first place? Or for those who are born into poor families.. Or when someone else sees another who to him appears as inferior to him having anything while he has nothing. Do they have the right to call God upon it? Or it is all about God's dispensation of grace? Can people claim what is not theirs given by God and should they do that? Or how should the act upon that?

I don't think it's "either/or" but rather "both/and." Grace and works.

As far as talents, and gifts, I think some people are just naturally better at some things than others. My brother, for example, taught himself to play piano when he was almost too little to reach the keys, and could play almost anything by ear. I could barely plunk out "chopsticks." With hard work and practice, I learned to play - a little, but never as well as he could.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

Indeed, everything we do as Christians, we do for the sake of communion with God, this “community of union.” The sacraments are specifically union with Him. Even our acts of charity and alms are communion with Him (“inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these…you did it unto Me”). We do nothing for Christ – but we do everything through and with and in Christ.

Indeed, everything we do as Christians, we do for the sake of communion with God, this “community of union.” The sacraments are specifically union with Him. Even our acts of charity and alms are communion with Him (“inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these…you did it unto Me”). We do nothing for Christ – but we do everything through and with and in Christ.

I don't think it's "either/or" but rather "both/and." Grace and works.

As far as talents, and gifts, I think some people are just naturally better at some things than others. My brother, for example, taught himself to play piano when he was almost too little to reach the keys, and could play almost anything by ear. I could barely plunk out "chopsticks." With hard work and practice, I learned to play - a little, but never as well as he could.

So how are "talents" given or a profiteering situation in life? Why do some seem to have all the talents and some none? Can we call God upon that ? How is God's dispensation of grace distributed and based on what? Can someone earn any talent in the world, without being given to him?

I don't think it's "either/or" but rather "both/and." Grace and works.

As far as talents, and gifts, I think some people are just naturally better at some things than others. My brother, for example, taught himself to play piano when he was almost too little to reach the keys, and could play almost anything by ear. I could barely plunk out "chopsticks." With hard work and practice, I learned to play - a little, but never as well as he could.

So how are "talents" given or a profiteering situation in life? Why do some seem to have all the talents and some none? Can we call God upon that ? How is God's dispensation of grace distributed and based on what? Can someone earn any talent in the world, without being given to him?

Don't understand your first sentence. And disagree with your second. It may seem that way, but it's not. Everyone has something that they're good at.And anyway, talents do not equal grace. Not the same thing at all, and to equate them makes no sense.

Hmmm...upon further reflection, I guess I disagree with your entire point! Sorry about that.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I don't think it's "either/or" but rather "both/and." Grace and works.

As far as talents, and gifts, I think some people are just naturally better at some things than others. My brother, for example, taught himself to play piano when he was almost too little to reach the keys, and could play almost anything by ear. I could barely plunk out "chopsticks." With hard work and practice, I learned to play - a little, but never as well as he could.

So how are "talents" given or a profiteering situation in life? Why do some seem to have all the talents and some none? Can we call God upon that ? How is God's dispensation of grace distributed and based on what? Can someone earn any talent in the world, without being given to him?

Don't understand your first sentence. And disagree with your second. It may seem that way, but it's not. Everyone has something that they're good at.And anyway, talents do not equal grace. Not the same thing at all, and to equate them makes no sense.

Hmmm...upon further reflection, I guess I disagree with your entire point! Sorry about that.

What is grace than? What is the difference between talent and grace? If anyone's is given a talent, how do you explain the outcasts of society and clumpsy people who can't do or get anything right? I guess what I am asking is why are some given so less talents and some so many ? Can someone "earn" a talent? Why are some born in very favourable conditions beauty, inteligence, wealth, spirituality and some in very defavourable conditions, ugly, stupid, poor, non-spiritual, etc? Why to some fate(God call it whatever) is extremely generous and to some extremely harsh?

Also: Can we earn divine bliss without grace? Can we earn our way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting retributive manner? Why is grace necessary? What puts us in a favourable position? What puts us in a favourable position with God?

Also: Can we earn divine bliss without grace? Can we earn our way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting retributive manner?

No. This is the heresy of Pelagianism, which was dealt with by Ss. Augustine and John Cassian. No one can earn their way into Heaven by works, as Pelagius taught.

Why is grace necessary? What puts us in a favourable position? What puts us in a favourable position with God?

Quote from: Catholic Epistle of St. James ch. 2, vv. 14-26 (NKJV)

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Also: Can we earn divine bliss without grace? Can we earn our way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting retributive manner?

No. This is the heresy of Pelagianism, which was dealt with by Ss. Augustine and John Cassian. No one can earn their way into Heaven by works, as Pelagius taught.

What would be wrong with earning our way up to God?

If salvation is by grace, what is grace , when is given and on account to what?

Also wasn't Augustine a monergist? Is monergism correct? Do you agree with monergism?

If salvation is by grace, what is grace , when is given and on account to what?

Grace, as I think was already dealt with here, is the Uncreated Energies of God. It is that which we partake of to unite ourselves to Christ and be saved. It is what St. Peter is talking about in his epistle when he tells us that we are "partakers of the Divine nature."

It is given constantly and in different measures and manners throughout the Christian life. The Holy Mysteries, as we understand them as certain "rites" (Baptism, Chrismation, Confession, Eucharist, Holy Orders, etc.) but also through other means, including sincere prayer, fasting, repentance, etc.

Also wasn't Augustine a monergist? Is monergism correct? Do you agree with monergism?

St. Augustine's monergistic teaching was rather uncomfortable to the Orthodox mainstream. There were corrections to his theology given by St. John Cassian and the Council of Orange, which utilized some of Augustine's thought while still maintaining the biblical, Orthodox view of synergism.

I'm not certain there's a definitive answer to that question. I know Protestant synergists like to tinker with it all the time, but such a scholastic undertaking is foreign to Orthopraxis, which is what we're investigating at the point we begin to ask these kind of questions.

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

The problem is that Protestants automatically view works in an Augustinian lens. Whenever you say that you believe works are a part of your salvation, they interpret it as meaning you think you could legalistically "earn" your way into "Heaven," because their view of salvation is a mere acquittal from guilt. But to the Orthodox, we see salvation not so much as being acquitted from guilt through scapegoating, but as being healed by God's grace through mutual cooperation.

If salvation is by grace, what is grace , when is given and on account to what?

Grace, as I think was already dealt with here, is the Uncreated Energies of God. It is that which we partake of to unite ourselves to Christ and be saved. It is what St. Peter is talking about in his epistle when he tells us that we are "partakers of the Divine nature."

Grace is that thing, an uncreated energy of God, "great answer". Concretely describe this "uncreated energy" and the circumstances under which it is given.

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It is given constantly and in different measures and manners throughout the Christian life. The Holy Mysteries, as we understand them as certain "rites" (Baptism, Chrismation, Confession, Eucharist, Holy Orders, etc.) but also through other means, including sincere prayer, fasting, repentance, etc.

What are the graces this religious things give? Explain the graces of every religious ritual and sacrament. Also is there a difference between "Grace" and "Talent" ?

Also wasn't Augustine a monergist? Is monergism correct? Do you agree with monergism?

St. Augustine's monergistic teaching was rather uncomfortable to the Orthodox mainstream. There were corrections to his theology given by St. John Cassian and the Council of Orange, which utilized some of Augustine's thought while still maintaining the biblical, Orthodox view of synergism.

Doesn't Orthodox type of synergy somehow contradict the one of the Council of Orange , being considered by the west as sort of Semi-Pelagianism? The Council of Orange confirmed the teaching of Augustine over Pelasgius and anathemised Pelasgianism.

The Council of Orange also says that grace precedes every effort conductive to salvation, and that without grace we cannot do good and avoid evil and that grace is universally needed? Do you agree with the council on Orange on this? Does the Orthodox Church?

I'm not certain there's a definitive answer to that question. I know Protestant synergists like to tinker with it all the time, but such a scholastic undertaking is foreign to Orthopraxis, which is what we're investigating at the point we begin to ask these kind of questions.

Also: Can we earn divine bliss without grace? Can we earn our way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting retributive manner?

I wouldn't say so. Christ's death on the Cross can be interpreted in multiples ways and fit many theologies.

Again taking that out of the picture (the Cross of Christ) if that makes it hard for you to grasp this.. What would be wrong with earning our way up to God?

Then you say wrongly and misunderstand all of non-Pelagian Christianity. You cannot "take that out of the picture." It is the central tenant of Christianity. Without it, you no longer profess faith in Christ.

What are the graces this religious things give? Explain the graces of every religious ritual and sacrament. Also is there a difference between "Grace" and "Talent" ?

There is a purpose to each of those that I listed. Baptism is for the remission and sins and unites a person to Christ. Chrismation is the sealing by the Holy Spirit. The Eucharist is the reception of the Body and Blood of Christ. etc. Grace is given through all of these, grace being those uncreated energies I mentioned. That thing which we partake of and consist in (i.e., in Christ) for our salvation.

Doesn't Orthodox type of synergy somehow contradict the one of the Council of Orange , being considered by the west as sort of Semi-Pelagianism? The Council of Orange confirmed the teaching of Augustine over Pelasgius and anathemised Pelasgianism.

The Council of Orange also says that grace precedes every effort conductive to salvation, and that without grace we cannot do good and avoid evil and that grace is universally needed? Do you agree with the council on Orange on this? Does the Orthodox Church?

The Council of Orange was an Orthodox council. That said, it was only a local council and not really given attention in the East. The East and West have historically looked at the matter a little differently. That said, the council confirmed St. Augustine, but not entirely. Corrections were made before the position was adopted.

No, quite sensical. It's just that I don't have to fit into your categories. Part of your problem here and in other threads is that you seem to have a system of thought that doesn't always work well with Orthodox teaching. You won't understand what we believe until you look outside of your own system and see ours.

Does personal merit have any credit in "Salvation" , "Justification" whatever..

Again I am not looking for a strict Orthodox answer that is why I opened this thread on the Free for all Section.

Again, "merit" with all its Western connotations doesn't fit very easily into an Orthodox mindset.

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Works are important, however, even if we do everything "right"...it's only through God's Grace that we obtain salvation.

If we can do everything right and that wouldn't count, than it does not matter what we do, but what God does. Where does that put morality and a moral code?

Also how would you define grace? And is there any account on which grace is given? Can one who makes more effort to do works fail in front of one who doesn't do absolutely anything but trusts in God's grace of has God's grace? Again on account to which is this grace given, and what does gace mean? Also can talents be achieved through hard work and practice? What i mean is several people have what is called "gifted talents". Can others earn and achieve this talents even if they were not given to them? Can people achieve any talents, graces, gifts, divine provisions, even if it was not given to them by birth? Does one have the right to claim that, or he would be just fighting and opposing divine's will ? What about people who are born dissabilitated or less good looking? Do they have the right to claim that and act upon it, through estethic medicine or whatever? Are estetic operations wrong(a sin) ? If they can than why did God made them like that in the first place? Or for those who are born into poor families.. Or when someone else sees another who to him appears as inferior to him having anything while he has nothing. Do they have the right to call God upon it? Or it is all about God's dispensation of grace? Can people claim what is not theirs given by God and should they do that? Or how should the act upon that?

The Lord Jesus came so that we would have perfected salvation through him from God's grace upon us.Before Christ the only way was to bring Burnt sacrifices, that were atonement for sin. This was why God gave his only son to become the perfect Lamb to atone for us.

Because man is incapable of perfection through his own talents or works. This does not mean that we can ignore his commands , it is described as a race to salvation by the Epistle writers, one has to try to run a good race, and through this God will reward us at the finish line as he sees the race. If you do not try and use your talents and work he will know just as the teacher scores your performance according to what they feel you are capable of, but God is the only one who Knows what you truly are capable of.

Grace can only really be defined by God, in that he is the one who gives it to you. When one is blessed by something Good , we thank God for this by his good Grace to us. Instead of thanking your luck or something like that, Many times there are inexplicable things that happen while we struggle to accomplish whatever we are doing. We say "By the Grace of God" . Same as when we thank God for the food at the table, we bought and cooked it , but we still thank God for it.

Many extremely talented and now famous talented people will tell you that they cannot explain where their ideas came from.Or they cannot explain how a great work turned out as it did , because they did not see it before it was done that way, seemingly supernatural or what some attribute to pure coincidence transpired to make the work beyond anyone's expectations who worked on it at the time . In other words it had a Life all it's own, and none of the people involved can claim they were responsible for the greatness that was achieved in the end.

This can be said "By the Grace of God" we achieved this. So their Talent and hard work were necessary, But also Grace from God, His Blessing of Grace took it to unimaginable heights .

So Grace from God is not defined in itself as in the dictionary, it is through you and what are your needs as God sees things.

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The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

What is grace? What is the difference between "grace" and "works" and how do they relate? What I mean: what puts us in a favourable place with God? Is it grace, is it works, is it both? Which first? Can we earn divine bliss outside of grace? Can we earn or way up to God? Can we earn anything at God? Like an accounting : I do that you owe me this ? Can we earn the fulness of divine gifts and deposits through works alone, in an accounting manner?

Jesus speaks a lot about "rewards". Not at all about God "owing" anyone anything.

Works are important, however, even if we do everything "right"...it's only through God's Grace that we obtain salvation.

If we can do everything right and that wouldn't count, than it does not matter what we do, but what God does. Where does that put morality and a moral code?

Also how would you define grace? And is there any account on which grace is given? Can one who makes more effort to do works fail in front of one who doesn't do absolutely anything but trusts in God's grace of has God's grace? Again on account to which is this grace given, and what does gace mean? Also can talents be achieved through hard work and practice? What i mean is several people have what is called "gifted talents". Can others earn and achieve this talents even if they were not given to them? Can people achieve any talents, graces, gifts, divine provisions, even if it was not given to them by birth? Does one have the right to claim that, or he would be just fighting and opposing divine's will ? What about people who are born dissabilitated or less good looking? Do they have the right to claim that and act upon it, through estethic medicine or whatever? Are estetic operations wrong(a sin) ? If they can than why did God made them like that in the first place? Or for those who are born into poor families.. Or when someone else sees another who to him appears as inferior to him having anything while he has nothing. Do they have the right to call God upon it? Or it is all about God's dispensation of grace? Can people claim what is not theirs given by God and should they do that? Or how should the act upon that?

Because man is incapable of perfection through his own talents or works. This does not mean that we can ignore his commands , it is described as a race to salvation by the Epistle writers, one has to try to run a good race, and through this God will reward us at the finish line as he sees the race. If you do not try and use your talents and work he will know just as the teacher scores your performance according to what they feel you are capable of, but God is the only one who Knows what you truly are capable of.

Can man not achieve perfection through merit? I mean what is wrong with earning our way to God? What is wrong with receiving this graces based on merits? Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

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Grace can only really be defined by God, in that he is the one who gives it to you. When one is blessed by something Good , we thank God for this by his good Grace to us. Instead of thanking your luck or something like that, Many times there are inexplicable things that happen while we struggle to accomplish whatever we are doing. We say "By the Grace of God" . Same as when we thank God for the food at the table, we bought and cooked it , but we still thank God for it.

Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

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Many extremely talented and now famous talented people will tell you that they cannot explain where their ideas came from.Or they cannot explain how a great work turned out as it did , because they did not see it before it was done that way, seemingly supernatural or what some attribute to pure coincidence transpired to make the work beyond anyone's expectations who worked on it at the time . In other words it had a Life all it's own, and none of the people involved can claim they were responsible for the greatness that was achieved in the end.

This can be said "By the Grace of God" we achieved this. So their Talent and hard work were necessary, But also Grace from God, His Blessing of Grace took it to unimaginable heights .

So Grace from God is not defined in itself as in the dictionary, it is through you and what are your needs as God sees things.

Is the grace of God something outside of us? Does everyone have this grace of God? Why are some given many talents and others so few? On account to what? Why do others find all the blessing circumstances, beauty, wealth, wisdom, health etc and other live with all defavourable circumstances, ugliness, ill, poverty, foolishness? What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it? Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life? Or there is a limit of talents, graces, blessings, etc? Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability? Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be? To go and claim talents, graces and blessings that were not given to you? Perhaps you were born ugly or ill(handicapped) or something else (Cross to bear from birth thing kind of argument). Can you call God upon it and try to change it.. For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

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Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

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What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

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Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

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Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

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Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

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Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

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For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

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Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

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Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

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What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

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Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

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Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

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Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

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Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

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For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

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Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

Dude, ignore away. Or do a bit of thinking. Whichever takes your fancy.

PS: There's no such word as 'argumentating'.

+1

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Can man not achieve perfection through merit? I mean what is wrong with earning our way to God? What is wrong with receiving this graces based on merits? Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

As I said above we must do our best to run the race, however we never as men can accomplish all we are capable of. Ask anyone in his later years if he could have done more and most will truthfully say yes. No one ever reaches his full potential. IMHO

Even someone as famously accomplished Einstein revealed he had regrets on his deathbed.

The guy with one talent was singled out for complete lack of trying at all. He simply buried his talent. This is not true for the majority, most people think themselves more talented than they really are , and do everything they can to utilize it(watch the preliminaries of tryouts on American Idol). The biggest mistake is most do not realize their real talents, or ignore the value as useless. they see no potential in it. It may have values they do not see ,or are blinded by societies values.

There is also the issue that Grace can overcome all. And as mere sinners we cannot begin to see it in others, let alone ourselves.Take the Criminal next to christ, what did he do all his life, certainly not what he could have or he would not have been saying he deservedbeing there. But yet he is the first one to be saved in the new Kingdom.Luke 2339One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.d ”

43Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

There is also the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where those who have done little are given the same as those who worked from the start. This is my best example of Grace from God as taught by Jesus.

<< Matthew 20 >>New International Version The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Can man not achieve perfection through merit? I mean what is wrong with earning our way to God? What is wrong with receiving this graces based on merits? Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

As I said above we must do our best to run the race, however we never as men can accomplish all we are capable of. Ask anyone in his later years if he could have done more and most will truthfully say yes. No one ever reaches his full potential. IMHO

Even someone as famously accomplished Einstein revealed he had regrets on his deathbed.

There people who have certain talents and have exploited them to a high level. Just look at champions and people with big achievements in life. Are you saying one could always do more and that there is no limit to what is available to us? Is this meant only in the context of a given talent or in the capacitation to gain absolutely all talents there are. How does one do that than?

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The guy with one talent was singled out for complete lack of trying at all. He simply buried his talent. This is not true for the majority, most people think themselves more talented than they really are , and do everything they can to utilize it(watch the preliminaries of tryouts on American Idol). The biggest mistake is most do not realize their real talents, or ignore the value as useless. they see no potential in it. It may have values they do not see ,or are blinded by societies values.

Well if it is not true for the majority how can that parable be realistic? What was the sin of the guy with one talent? In the end "he gives back to God what he received from him" . What prejudiced did he caused God? What is that all about? Do all human beings have talents and grace at God? On what is based God's dispensation of graces and talents? Take that parable for instance. Why does God according to that parable is partial is his dispensation of talents? And don't give me the smart answer (which is in the parable but doesn't explain things that good, at least to me) that "he gave everyone according to his power". What does that mean? And where does one's power come from if not from God? What is the power that is spoken of in there? And isn't the syntagm "according to his"(even if it refers to power) a "merit" syntagm? If that is so are talents given based on merits? What merits?

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There is also the issue that Grace can overcome all. And as mere sinners we cannot begin to see it in others, let alone ourselves.Take the Criminal next to christ, what did he do all his life, certainly not what he could have or he would not have been saying he deservedbeing there. But yet he is the first one to be saved in the new Kingdom.Luke 2339One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.d ”

43Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

What is grace than? On what depends one's receiving of grace? How does this grace work?

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There is also the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where those who have done little are given the same as those who worked from the start. This is my best example of Grace from God as taught by Jesus.

<< Matthew 20 >>New International Version The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Are you saying grace is unmerited favour? What triggers this grace than. How can one receive it?

Also is there a fairness in grace and the dispensation of grace and talents? Explain.

Indeed, everything we do as Christians, we do for the sake of communion with God, this “community of union.” The sacraments are specifically union with Him. Even our acts of charity and alms are communion with Him (“inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these…you did it unto Me”). We do nothing for Christ – but we do everything through and with and in Christ.

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

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Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

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What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

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Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

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Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

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Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

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Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

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For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

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Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

I think that your attitude is belligerent and insulting. The best solution for this problem may be for you to quit posting; you should not act as if you can control and moderate threads that you start. That job belongs to the moderators and last I checked you are not one. This is an informal warning as I think you are not used to Internet forum protocols and I suspect English is not your native language. Please reread the Rules page and make a special effort to understand the spirit, as well as the letter, of our rules. Lastly, a little bit of politeness goes a long way. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

Quote

Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

Quote

What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

Quote

Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

Quote

Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

Quote

Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

Quote

Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

Quote

For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

Quote

Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

I think that your attitude is belligerent and insulting. The best solution for this problem may be for you to quit posting; you should not act as if you can control and moderate threads that you start. That job belongs to the moderators and last I checked you are not one. This is an informal warning as I think you are not used to Internet forum protocols and I suspect English is not your native language. Please reread the Rules page and make a special effort to understand the spirit, as well as the letter, of our rules. Lastly, a little bit of politeness goes a long way. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

With the exception to Moderators I can control whom I will chose to reply to and whom not. The rules of this forum are asinine but I don't have any alternative than following them if I want to be here. At least until Monday.

And are you actually trying to instigate me to get Moderated? I mean can I say some things about you without being Moderated?

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

Quote

Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

Quote

What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

Quote

Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

Quote

Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

Quote

Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

Quote

Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

Quote

For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

Quote

Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

I think that your attitude is belligerent and insulting. The best solution for this problem may be for you to quit posting; you should not act as if you can control and moderate threads that you start. That job belongs to the moderators and last I checked you are not one. This is an informal warning as I think you are not used to Internet forum protocols and I suspect English is not your native language. Please reread the Rules page and make a special effort to understand the spirit, as well as the letter, of our rules. Lastly, a little bit of politeness goes a long way. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

With the exception to Moderators I can control whom I will chose to reply to and whom not. The rules of this forum are asinine but I don't have any alternative than following them if I want to be here. At least until Monday.

And are you actually trying to instigate me to get Moderated? I mean can I say some things about you without being Moderated?

I want to know couple of things before I take any action. I am posting my questions in public to make sure that all readers are aware of Forum moderation policies. You do not need to answer these questions in public, but may PM me.

1. Do you know that if I post in green that it means that I am posting as a moderator instead of a regular poster?

2. Do you know that questioning moderators in public, just like you just did, is frowned upon? Here is the rule: "Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum."

3. By saying "The rules of this forum are asinine," don't you think that you are complaining about forum moderation?

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

Quote

Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

Quote

What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

Quote

Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

Quote

Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

Quote

Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

Quote

Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

Quote

For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

Quote

Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

I think that your attitude is belligerent and insulting. The best solution for this problem may be for you to quit posting; you should not act as if you can control and moderate threads that you start. That job belongs to the moderators and last I checked you are not one. This is an informal warning as I think you are not used to Internet forum protocols and I suspect English is not your native language. Please reread the Rules page and make a special effort to understand the spirit, as well as the letter, of our rules. Lastly, a little bit of politeness goes a long way. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

With the exception to Moderators I can control whom I will chose to reply to and whom not. The rules of this forum are asinine but I don't have any alternative than following them if I want to be here. At least until Monday.

And are you actually trying to instigate me to get Moderated? I mean can I say some things about you without being Moderated?

I want to know couple of things before I take any action. I am posting my questions in public to make sure that all readers are aware of Forum moderation policies. You do not need to answer these questions in public, but may PM me.

1. Do you know that if I post in green that it means that I am posting as a moderator instead of a regular poster?

2. Do you know that questioning moderators in public, just like you just did, is frowned upon? Here is the rule: "Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum."

3. By saying "The rules of this forum are asinine," don't you think that you are complaining about forum moderation?

Put on post moderation for (a) using an ad hominem, (b) complaining about forum moderation and (c) attacking a specific official action taken by a moderator. If you wish to protest my decision, please PM me. Thanks, Carl Kraeff

Yes only God knows what we are trully capable of. Is there a sin if we did not achieve(fulfil) our capability(did what we were really capable of doing) ? Is that the story of the guy with one talent in the parable of Jesus?

Yes. Circumstantial limits are one thing. Not bothering to try is another.

Quote

Is there any automatism for grace? Can we earn grace from God based on certain merits / rituals etc? The type of graces I am talking about is being blessed by God in life with something good and profitable and favourable circumstances.

Christ never promised His followers profit and favours. He promised persecution and a cross to match His own.

Quote

What I am really asking on account to which are this grace and talents given?

According to God's plan, which you can't see or understand as a whole.

Quote

Also is it wrong to envy others(desire what they have) for being blessed by God with all favourable things and call God upon it?

Yes. God owes you nothing.

Quote

Are all graces, talents and blessings attainable for everyone in life?

No. A lifetime can only fit so much in it.

Quote

Can one claim more than what is given to him and more than his capability?

'Claim'? Like filing a lawsuit?

Quote

Is it wrong to try and be something more than you were given to be?

Why waste time and resources in order to fail?

Quote

For example if one is ugly can he make use of plastic surgery and other stuff like that?

Do you really consider that a grant of grace?

Quote

Is there any fairness to the dispensation of grace/s and talent/s or is that just random?

There's plenty of fairness, just not equality.

Learn to justify and argumentate your answers (valid for everyone who replies to my posts and questions which I think are argumentated enough) or they will be ignored. You can start with argumentating this post of yours.

I think that your attitude is belligerent and insulting. The best solution for this problem may be for you to quit posting; you should not act as if you can control and moderate threads that you start. That job belongs to the moderators and last I checked you are not one. This is an informal warning as I think you are not used to Internet forum protocols and I suspect English is not your native language. Please reread the Rules page and make a special effort to understand the spirit, as well as the letter, of our rules. Lastly, a little bit of politeness goes a long way. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

With the exception to Moderators I can control whom I will chose to reply to and whom not. The rules of this forum are asinine but I don't have any alternative than following them if I want to be here. At least until Monday.

And are you actually trying to instigate me to get Moderated? I mean can I say some things about you without being Moderated?

I want to know couple of things before I take any action. I am posting my questions in public to make sure that all readers are aware of Forum moderation policies. You do not need to answer these questions in public, but may PM me.

1. Do you know that if I post in green that it means that I am posting as a moderator instead of a regular poster?

2. Do you know that questioning moderators in public, just like you just did, is frowned upon? Here is the rule: "Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum."

3. By saying "The rules of this forum are asinine," don't you think that you are complaining about forum moderation?

I think our dear friend, Virtual Paradise, here has finally shown us proof positive that he is more interested in controlling and confronting than learning about our Faith. I believe that its time I cease attempting to dialogue with someone who, now most certainly, isn't interested in genuine dialogue.

Take care, friend. I hope you come to value actual dialogue and will be able to carry on a conversation with us about what we believe, rather than bluntly stating commands like "Describe it" and "Why?" as if I'm reading the chapter review from a high school textbook.

Grace and peace.

Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

I think our dear friend, Virtual Paradise, here has finally shown us proof positive that he is more interested in controlling and confronting than learning about our Faith. I believe that its time I cease attempting to dialogue with someone who, now most certainly, isn't interested in genuine dialogue.

Take care, friend. I hope you come to value actual dialogue and will be able to carry on a conversation with us about what we believe, rather than bluntly stating commands like "Describe it" and "Why?" as if I'm reading the chapter review from a high school textbook.

Grace and peace.

I am interested i just don't find it. No offence but you didn't do a great argumentation for your claims. You trew me some "smart answers" and some biblical verses and that's about it. I am really interested in dialogue, but no one seems to want to comunicate and address exactly what I ask. I am trying to dialogue. You people are trying to monologue me (preach me) and trow me some "smart unargumantated answers". As I said on the topic on the Convert Issue forum, I function by proof argumentations. And I said why. That is the way I function and I think. No need to get offended, that is just how I am.

I think our dear friend, Virtual Paradise, here has finally shown us proof positive that he is more interested in controlling and confronting than learning about our Faith. I believe that its time I cease attempting to dialogue with someone who, now most certainly, isn't interested in genuine dialogue.

Take care, friend. I hope you come to value actual dialogue and will be able to carry on a conversation with us about what we believe, rather than bluntly stating commands like "Describe it" and "Why?" as if I'm reading the chapter review from a high school textbook.

Grace and peace.

I am interested i just don't find it. No offence but you didn't do a great argumentation for your claims. You trew me some "smart answers" and some biblical verses and that's about it. I am really interested in dialogue, but no one seems to want to comunicate and address exactly what I ask. I am trying to dialogue. You people are trying to monologue me (preach me) and trow me some "smart unargumantated answers". As I said on the topic on the Convert Issue forum, I function by proof argumentations. And I said why. That is the way I function and I think. No need to get offended, that is just how I am.

Adding few please's and thank you's goes a long way, especially together with some actual dialogue and questions, instead of barking your commands. We're perfectly willing to speak with you, but you seem to speak at us instead.

If you aren't swayed by our statements, then talk about it intelligently. That is what dialogue is. Offering your own well-reasoned thoughts on the matter, as well as sincere questions (with at least some decorum) will, again, go a long way.

Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Please forgive my felow Romanian, Virtual Paradise.In Romania we are not taught how, when and why to use 'please' and 'thank you'.It took me a long time to wrap my mind around this concept. I often came across as rude and obnoxious. It's a work in progress, but I'm getting better at it.I advised him to humble himself once in awhile, but I doubt he will listen to me.

Romanians are not bad people at all. Just rude (VP proved it to everybody) but we have reasons to be, giving our history. Admiting this does not make us bad people. There's always room for improvement, in my opinion. We just have to WORK at it.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria