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Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Had Frank just said "we're going to play inside out, look to take good shots and play hard every play" then your point would be more valid, but he chose to give it a name.

So did Wooden. He called it "Fundamental" basketball IIRC.

And I don't think guys like Wooden or Knight would tolerate stuff like Danny getting in Lebron's face. I mean as a fan I can get fired up and take that emotional ride with him, but at the same time if Danny just gave Lebron the Jordan, took the play to the other end of the court and just beat him, that would say "tough" a lot more than some barking.

Barking back is the ground floor of standing up for yourself. Ignoring the bark and then biting when it counts is the penthouse.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Why would somebody who generally really sucks at setting a screen excel in doing so just because he has some pads on? I bet they had to yell at Tyler to quit leaving the screen before the contact is made.

So remove the pads and nail his shoes to the floor instead.

And just to be clear, I love the drill because they have had some terrible offensive spacing issues which makes them underproductive on offense compared to their scoring talent. One reason I liked Josh is that he read shooting screen situations very well and set them cleanly for guys like Dunleavy.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

I hope to **** that you forgot to green this post. Why would that be, unless our shooting has actually improved that much?

Danny is a great 3 point shooter, and his best portions of last year coincided with him being hot from 3, Hill takes alot more 3's than DC, and Paul has supposedly worked on his shooting in the offseason. Gerald Green also shoots alot more 3's than Dahntay, and maybe about par with Leandro, and DJ takes more than DC. So we probably will see more 3's which isn't. in a bubble, a bad thing as long as they are good shots.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

I hope to **** that you forgot to green this post. Why would that be, unless our shooting has actually improved that much?

I think we ranked 6th in 3 pt % last season. We're a good 3 point shooting team (while somehow being one of the lower overall FG% teams in the league), so as long as we're still putting a lot of pressure on the defense, then I'm okay with it.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

I like the general characteristics Vogel is referring to with the "Smashmouth" term: mental & physical toughness, inside / out play, dont back down, and a little swagger. I think those are important qualities for a starless team to have. However, in an NBA where stars are protected and get the benefit of the doubt, I think the term "Smashmouth" has a potential to hurt more than it does help. The team is developing a league wide perception nearing dirty IMO and I don't believe that is beneficial in the current NBA - especially considering they lack anyone (star) that will get the benefit of the doubt from refs. Keep the philosophy, but lose the rhetoric.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

The team is developing a league wide perception nearing dirty IMO and I don't believe that is beneficial in the current NBA - especially considering they lack anyone (star) that will get the benefit of the doubt from refs. Keep the philosophy, but lose the rhetoric.

Name one opposing player who was injured by our smashmouth play last year (and no, I wouldn't consider Horford to have been injured as a result of our smashmouth philosophy).

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

Name one opposing player who was injured by our smashmouth play last year (and no, I wouldn't consider Horford to have been injured as a result of our smashmouth philosophy).

Not sure what that has to do with it???? I didn't say they were dirty. I'm saying they are getting the perception largely do to the TALK. I'd actually have less an issue with that type play than I do with that type talk. Nobody is intimidated by the Pacers talk. IMO all you do is play in to opposing teams complaints to refs etc. In a league where you sometimes can't breathe on stars, I fail to see the advantage of the talk. Shutting up and putting opponents on their asses would be more effective.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

To me the Vogel philosophy is to GRIND. Grind on offense with inside out play and solid screens. Lots of physical interaction that requires work, strength and stamina. Ditto on defense. In fact in the Training Camp special Vogel was getting on the team for gambling too much on defense. And not just lunges for dribble steals, but jumps for pass tips/intercepts, chasing blocks, etc. So that's grinding too because rather than risk giving up easy big plays he's going to try to make teams work through their offense and through all their players. It's a little bit Dungy where the idea is to make a team execute correctly more times in a row rather than go for low pct gamble homeruns.

If the offensive and defensive philosophies are sound then this is a strong idea. Meaning if you don't have a gap on defense that will get exposed with a little work then you'll force moderately low PCT shots, and on offense if you can count on guys to execute as they wear down and have plans that will eventually result in a decent look, then you'll end up with some shots you want. But if guys stop setting or running the screens as stamina runs down then you'll wish you had a few sets where guys can rest and let one guy do the work...but then you need a guy that can pull that off too.

I'd guess that the 3pt shot is going to be that "easy" offensive set to rest up on. However I don't think this is a JOB type of approach because his goal was specifically to hunt for open 3s, where I think Vogel is specifically hunting for holes in the defense and leaning on 3s to fall back on as needed. He mentioned how he wants the curl man or the PnR dribbler to continue their attack toward the rim until they can force a defender to come stop them (again, Training Camp show). So it sounds like guys were settling for pull ups or dishing too soon and Vogel is trying to make the opposition defense prove they can execute.

And back to the defensive side, I think we see a real difference between JOB and Vogel there. JOB was big on tips, defense and disruption of the passing lanes, and that's not really a bad thing. But it sounds like Vogel is trying to defend the SPACE rather than the ball. The corollary to the offense where he plans on having a defense that simply executes to deny space and lanes as a team until finally they settle for mid-jumpers. So I'm guessing a lot less doubles, maybe even a bit less trapping where you try to force the action and risk giving up an easy play. It makes me wonder if they are going to trap the PnR as much or if Roy won't be coming out so far this year to hedge that.

But ultimately I'm expecting grinding except for TOs, and with the athletes they have he feels like they can get out and run on any TOs out on top without having to gamble for them. It's not going to be a JOB pace game, but we already knew that. But the instant the ball touches DJ, Paul or Green's hands and they are on the court together it's going to be a starter's pistol. Long stretches of body blows and leaning on the other boxer rather than fancy dancing and wild haymakers, but then 5 rounds in just as it's almost getting boring the other guy gets sloppy from exhaustion and opens himself up just for a second and that's where you see the brief flurry of quick jabs (ie, fastbreaks).

You have to figure that it only takes 5-6 solid breaks for 10-12 points to make a huge difference if you aren't returning the favor by gambling.

They seemed to indicate during the special that Vogel has added several plays to the book. He mentioned a new play they were trying to get down. One they were running was a PnPop with Roy and when West's man comes out to help, West (on strong low block) goes to the weakside wing defender (his man is sitting in the corner 3, he's cheated to the weakside block) and pins him away from the baseline. They pass to the wing and he passes into West who now has the baseline and rim protected by his body. Classic grinder where you aren't spacing away from a guy, you are using created space to allow you to go body a different guy in a way that you have a major advantage and control the situation.

Re: IndyStar: Pacers take smash-mouth basketball to another level

To me the Vogel philosophy is to GRIND. Grind on offense with inside out play and solid screens. Lots of physical interaction that requires work, strength and stamina. Ditto on defense.

Talk about semantics. This is what people say that "smashmouth" is, which you just disagreed with. Regardless of what you want to call it, the vision of the team is this. Frank can call it Foo-Foo Bunny Poo, and it wouldn't change the philosophy that he put in place.