The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

A monk, without giving up his vows, can perfectly well practice Dzogchen, as can a Catholic priest, a clerk, a workman, and so on, without having to abandon their role in society, because Dzogchen does not change people from the outside.

Every religion, every spiritual teaching, has its basic philosophical principles, its characteristic way of seeing things. Within the philosophy of Buddhism alone, for example, there have arisen different systems and traditions, often disagreeing with each other only over subtleties of interpretation of the fundamental principles. In Tibet these philosophical controversies have lasted up until the present day, and the resulting polemical writings now form a whole body of literature in itself. But in Dzogchen no importance at all is attached to philosophical opinions and convictions. The way of seeing in Dzogchen is not based on intellectual knowledge, but on an awareness of the individual's own true condition.

All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us.

For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is.

Malcolm wrote:Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition,

So even if you understand, you still need a dzogchen master (living), to bless you with his realization, before your understanding is authentic ?

,

"Your true nature is something never lost to you even in moments of delusion, nor is it gained at the moment of Enlightenment. It is the Nature of the Bhutatathata. In it is neither delusion nor right understanding." [Huang Po]

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Yes. Without that my reD flags pop up. But I also know there are others more experienceD anD knowleDgeable than me, anD that's where faith comes in. Trusting these Masters with our heart.

"Your true nature is something never lost to you even in moments of delusion, nor is it gained at the moment of Enlightenment. It is the Nature of the Bhutatathata. In it is neither delusion nor right understanding." [Huang Po]

Is reading The Precious Treasury... By Longchenpa a transmission ? Or only When you listen to ChNN via Webcast/or live ?

"Your true nature is something never lost to you even in moments of delusion, nor is it gained at the moment of Enlightenment. It is the Nature of the Bhutatathata. In it is neither delusion nor right understanding." [Huang Po]

Ok. When I was watching my teacher washing dishes one day, what looked ordinary, astounded me. Was that a transmission ? Can I say what occured or should I PM you ? Ok,I found this, which sort of answers my questioning/confusion : http://www.dzogchen.it/dzogchen/direct-transmission

"Your true nature is something never lost to you even in moments of delusion, nor is it gained at the moment of Enlightenment. It is the Nature of the Bhutatathata. In it is neither delusion nor right understanding." [Huang Po]

The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.

I always thought Dzogchen was way far off and out of reach being a very beginning Nyingmapa student who took refuge with Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche in Gyatrul Rinpoche's at Yeshe Nyingpo sangha down here where I live.

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

Ogyen wrote:The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.

Ogyen, you speak my mind. I'm also relatively new to this teaching -- a matter of some months in my case -- and like you my sense has been of happening upon what I have been seeking for the whole of my life. Welcome, and enjoy the journey!

Ogyen wrote:The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.

Ogyen, you speak my mind. I'm also relatively new to this teaching -- a matter of some months in my case -- and like you my sense has been of happening upon what I have been seeking for the whole of my life. Welcome, and enjoy the journey!

I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.

I have no intention of not doing Ngondro, hopefully in November when my teacher visits I can get the empowerment to start it... the sangha down here is great, they told me that even though I'll have just delivered my second baby by a couple weeks, I can show up with my newborn and toddler to meet our visiting teacher. It was so reassuring to know it's never too early to be exposed to dharma or a good teacher... These kids are raised with the dharma at home.

But meeting paths with ChNNR even if 'indirectly' and seeing this possibility for limitless inner reach... at least learning some of the material practice is ... illuminating, to say the least. Like my mental sky just got bigger somehow... Thanks for creating this thread, btw. I think this will be of much benefit to many of us. Much appreciated.

Is there a beginner's thread? I read through a lot of interesting threads, looks like we have resources, and scattered topics... I was looking around, saw something mentioned about a sticky... did I miss it?

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

Ogyen wrote:I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.

This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. Lama Tharchin also teaches Dzogchen frequently, and openly, although I believe he also emphasizes ngondro as a practice to not avoid. If you read Thinley Norbu's "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" and specifically the chapter on Guru Yoga you will see why the Guru Yoga of the Dudjom ngondro is a very profound Dzogchen practice in and of itself. If your teacher's are not explicitly teaching you Dzogchen™, then ask them to teach on Guru Yoga. You will be receiving Dzogchen teachings, it is inevitable.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Your experience is rather common Ogyen. Sadly.And that's what matters in the end: your experience, not what others tell it should be or what theoretically should be or any other mental construction, but what it really is. Let not anyobody convince you of the contrary, because it's your life, your experience, your right to evaluate.

I've been there and know exactly what you are talking about. I'm glad you found this thread useful and illuminating. That's exactly its purpose. Never lose your freedom and sense of spaciousness.

Whatever path you decide to take, whatever practices you decide to do, I wish you the very best.

Ogyen wrote:I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.

This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. Lama Tharchin also teaches Dzogchen frequently, and openly, although I believe he also emphasizes ngondro as a practice to not avoid. If you read Thinley Norbu's "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" and specifically the chapter on Guru Yoga you will see why the Guru Yoga of the Dudjom ngondro is a very profound Dzogchen practice in and of itself. If your teacher's are not explicitly teaching you Dzogchen™, then ask them to teach on Guru Yoga. You will be receiving Dzogchen teachings, it is inevitable.

ChNN says that if you don't understand the sense of the teaching there is no way you can get it ... that the teacher speaks, he speaks a lot, but if you don't understand what that is all about you miss the sense of the teaching ..."Therefore, this or this teacher, ngondrö or not ngondrö, so and so, if you don't understand the sense of the teaching there is no way you can get it ...

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Malcolm wrote:The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

Yes this is really the case. One's true condition is not about being present mindfully, becoming something, or struggling to overlay experience with meaning. It's the simple fact of the presence. I can't see any other way to describe it. Just the fact of the presence. And in that simple fact of presence there are no limitations. Everything is included in the fact of presence - my beating heart for example.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Malcolm wrote:The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

Yes this is really the case. One's true condition is not about being present mindfully, becoming something, or struggling to overlay experience with meaning. It's the simple fact of the presence. I can't see any other way to describe it. Just the fact of the presence. And in that simple fact of presence there are no limitations. Everything is included in the fact of presence - my beating heart for example.

Ogyen wrote:I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' *snip* I have a LONG way to go.

This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. *snip*

Hi again Ogyen, I just wanted to reply again, and say that I apologize for anyone speaking about my post making claims that it was "damage control" etc. This is sadly misguided, and just reflective of the odd polarizing nature of a particular trend happening on the forum right now for whatever reason. I wanted to share an example of what I am talking about, something that just popped into my email box. These are public, unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen View, Meditation and Action with the lineage holder of the Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom Rinpoche's son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche:

Appropriate for all those interested in Buddhism, this seminar introduces three basic tenets of all Buddhist practice: view which is the perspective for re-understanding our experiences, meditation which is the path, and action which is the result of the previous two.

I have been to countless unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen including pointing out with various Dudjom Lamas over the course of many years. Despite what some may claim, this is the very heart of the lineage and is commonly presented from the very beginning, to the fortunate who have the attraction and without any requirements or restrictions. But as the Tibetan saying goes "each Lama has their own Dharma". And so, even in the same lineage, various Lamas may embrace different approaches. Perhaps your Lama has a good reason to do things they way they do. But I am sure they would not discourage you from attending Dzogchen teachings with another Lama who is properly qualified.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Dechen Norbu wrote:Your experience is rather common Ogyen. Sadly.And that's what matters in the end: your experience, not what others tell it should be or what theoretically should be or any other mental construction, but what it really is. Let not anyobody convince you of the contrary, because it's your life, your experience, your right to evaluate.

I've been there and know exactly what you are talking about. I'm glad you found this thread useful and illuminating. That's exactly its purpose. Never lose your freedom and sense of spaciousness.

Whatever path you decide to take, whatever practices you decide to do, I wish you the very best.

DN - thank you for the words of encouragement. I think it's ok if my experience is rather common. Samsara is rather common. I discovered a long time ago I can be a tenacious cookie, for the good and (tsk tsk) the not so good. I AM learning to weaken the negative clinging, but I find the quality of my inner tenacity is invaluable in pursuing happiness and the natural state of being. I obstinately let things go.

I am blessed with very good companions along the way - virtual and IRL. I appreciate your consistent intention to make things clearer and more accessible to everyone. It's a good lead by example. I've learned a lot from your style this way over the past few years. I intend to keep the sky open, the way it was meant to be.

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

Adamantine wrote:Hi again Ogyen, I just wanted to reply again, and say that I apologize for anyone speaking about my post making claims that it was "damage control" etc. This is sadly misguided, and just reflective of the odd polarizing nature of a particular trend happening on the forum right now for whatever reason. I wanted to share an example of what I am talking about, something that just popped into my email box. These are public, unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen View, Meditation and Action with the lineage holder of the Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom Rinpoche's son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche:

Appropriate for all those interested in Buddhism, this seminar introduces three basic tenets of all Buddhist practice: view which is the perspective for re-understanding our experiences, meditation which is the path, and action which is the result of the previous two.

I have been to countless unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen including pointing out with various Dudjom Lamas over the course of many years. Despite what some may claim, this is the very heart of the lineage and is commonly presented from the very beginning, to the fortunate who have the attraction and without any requirements or restrictions. But as the Tibetan saying goes "each Lama has their own Dharma". And so, even in the same lineage, various Lamas may embrace different approaches. Perhaps your Lama has a good reason to do things they way they do. But I am sure they would not discourage you from attending Dzogchen teachings with another Lama who is properly qualified.

Wonderful! Thank you for this tip! I have full confidence that Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche has absolutely valid reasons for requesting we take the Ngondro empowerment as a basic in the preliminaries. But he never has discouraged me from finding ANY other teachers. I think he is wise in his method, and you know how it is when you click well with a teacher, birds of a feather flock karmically together for a reason. So at least in this sense, I just trust him.

I'm not sure why the issue is polarizing, but I keep getting the feeling about the 5 blind men and the elephant. There's one elephant, who cares what differences we experience in our path wherever we are... however, I'm quite ignorant and known to sometimes brush with too wide of a broadstroke...

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy