MrSteve007:They pay for the farking dams and transmission system at no profit.

Not always. The BPA does collect surplus market revenue (profit) above and beyond its direct costs. This money is used for things like unexpected maintenance and infrastructure costs as well as a buffer on any unanticipated changes in power generation or market influences.

This is a standard way of operating for a not-for-profit entity. If you don't believe me, check out their rate adjustment notification for this year:

HeadLever:apparently not as the rest of your post is just an in-depth rehash of the points I have already made. I am glad that you took the time to research this topic and lean about it and no longer believe that the BPA is the owner or operator of the PNW dams.

I really don't want to get down to calling you names, but it seems you decided to skip over what I said. I'll try to distill it down for you.

Who tells the ACoE guys to open or close the spillways or generators of the dam? The BPA. Who pays for the Federal investments of the dams & powerlines? The BPA. Who transmits and sells that power to everyone? The BPA. Who builds the powerlines? The BPA.

To say that the BPA doesn't operate and pay for the the NW regional power system, at no profit, is being pedantic.

MrSteve007:Who tells the ACoE guys to open or close the spillways or generators of the dam?

That can be anyone from Federal Courts, to the BPA, to any other number of stakeholders. In any case, it is obvious that your assertion that the BPA operates the dams is not correct, no matter how you try to spin that misstatement.

The BPA. Who transmits and sells that power to everyone? The BPA. Who builds the powerlines? The BPA.

Tricky Chicken:whidbey: HeadLever: What is funny with whidbey is that on one side of his face he is saying that 'trying to make necessities like power and lights profitable is a bad idea', and on the other he is saying that if they are a money-loser, then subsidize it

What is funny with whidbey is that on one side of his face he is saying that 'trying to make necessities like power and lights profitable is a bad idea', and on the other he is saying that if they are a money-loser, then subsidize it.

I am uncertain if his position is shifting in light of our discussion or if he really does not understand his own direct incongruity.

He actually tried to convince me at one time that absolutely ANY criticism of president Obama on any matter is purely based upon unjustified racism. So don't expect too much rationality from that one.

Oh yeah, out of context non-sequitur FTW.

But if you insist, when you're adding to the chorus of impotent raging social conservatives out there who do in fact support racism, you're really not helping.

No, that had absolutely nothing to do with your position. You were clear and concise. Your clearly stated position was 'ANY criticism of this president is racism' You could be Nancy Pelosi, and if she disagreed with the president she would be a racist. You made no connection to social conservatives at all. Heck, if Michelle comments about his wardrobe, your argument would make her a racist.

I asked you to clarify several times, and you stuck to your guns,

I merely added this fact to help point out that you are merely a raving loon.

hurr

Yeah well next time make real arguments about shiat, not refer to your interpretations of others posts in other threads.

HeadLever:In any case, it is obvious that your assertion that the BPA operates the dams is not correct, no matter how you try to spin that misstatement.

I'll admit, it isn't a person from the BPA with their hand on the lever at the dams that controls the spillway. But you have to admit that in a vast majority of the time, it's someone from the BPA who tells the ACoE guy that he should pull the lever. And it's the BPA who pays for and manages everything involved with electricity in the system - along with for the safety of salmon and wildlife in the system.

They're far more than a simple marketing agency. They own, build and operate the transmission lines. They are the region's main provider of grid electricity. And they pay the costs for the main generators on the system, including paying for the nuclear power plant. They are the ones private and public local utilities deal with when buying power. They are the main guys who negotiate power purchase contracts, regionally and internationally. They also administer and service the bonds involved with the federal and state owned power generation stations. They provide load-balancing across several states. And the only organization utilities or large customers can deal with when buying federally managed electricity

For all extensive purposes, it's the BPA who manages and operates the NW regional power grid and is the only one who tells the federal power generators how much power is needed. They are for all extensive purposes, a massive public utility. Which all goes back to your original argument:

HeadLever:When was the last time one of these agencies actually had revenues balance out costs perfectly? That is always a possibility, but not much of a reality.

The BPA (and the federal partners in the system that the BPA funds), does exactly this. They provide millions of people electricity, and balance their books perfectly. And they have for 77 years.

MrSteve007:But you have to admit that in a vast majority of the time, it's someone from the BPA who tells the ACoE guy that he should pull the lever.

On the powerhouse side, yes as they set the power generation guidelines. However, this can be changed based upon differing scenarios. On the lock side, they have little presence.

They're far more than a simple marketing agency. They own, build and operate the transmission lines.

Which I have inferred in my point here: Overall, they market and sell wholesale power to utilities and other power companies. They are basically a transmission middleman between the producers and the utilities.

it's the BPA who manages and operates the NW regional power grid and is the only one who tells the federal power generators how much power is needed.

Yep. I agree and have said as much.

The BPA (and the federal partners in the system that the BPA funds), does exactly this.

HeadLever:Which I have inferred in my point here: Overall, they market and sell wholesale power to utilities and other power companies. They are basically a transmission middleman between the producers and the utilities . . .

who also creates, services, backs, and funds the public bonds that pay for all the public electrical generation dams in the region and a nuclear power plant

So, a transmission middleman who does all the work with grid stability, demand loads, international contract negotiations, salmon protection, private renewable generation integration, local conservation programs, directly funding experimental energy storage systems and pays bills of all the federal energy projects involved. Oh, and is also Congressionally mandated to distribute the profits, once all the fed's bills are paid, to benefit ratepayers. That's quite a bit more work than simply a "middleman."

There's a reason why our electricity is some of the cheapest in the nation. And why it's so reliable and efficient. And it has nothing to do with private utilities, and everything to do with the BPA.

MrSteve007:And why it's so reliable and efficient. And it has nothing to do with private utilities, and everything to do with the BPA.

I never said they were bad at their job. Believe me, I know exactly what the BPA does. They are not a producer and they are not a utility. They are a go between (aka middleman) between the two. Yes, it is more complicated than but I was trying to explain sum up.