Eagle_11 wrote:The way i have understood the Horse Clans are located directly north(and north-east) of Weldyn, as the Horse Clans level takes place around there in HttT, or atleast was so last time i have played that campaign. It also makes perfect sense for Wesnoth to let the knights settle into their very center.

And I've always understood the Horse Clans to be situated a bit more to the East, right around Soradoc (which is their regional capital). The hills between those lands and Weldyn are the famous hills whence Konrad watched the kingdom capitol for the first time in his life (just before the finale battle against Ashievere which gives this game its name), as depicted in an old main menu background of the game.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
(By the way, I should note that a new description is almost certainly for 1.15+ only.)

Well, that are we going to do for 1.14? Leave with no description, make some short placeholder description, or quikly finish with the last proposal?

Well, 1.13.11 is scheduled for "February 4th 00:01 UTC", which I believe works out to under 5 hours from now, so it'd have to be really quickly. Or just use what we have now, and keep working on an improvement for 1.15.

99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

Airatgaljamov wrote:
Well, 1.13.11 is scheduled for "February 4th 00:01 UTC", which I believe works out to under 5 hours from now, so it'd have to be really quickly. Or just use what we have now, and keep working on an improvement for 1.15.

Is it community decided or developers decided? I'm not 100% satisfied with the last proposal, but I don't know in what direction should it be improved. On the other hand 1.14 is Steam release, right? Maybe clearly unfinished stuffed shouldn't be present. So maybe let's implement the last proposal?

Or just cut it down to a placeholder:

The Dunefolk are one of a many diverse Human cultures. They inhabit the dry deserts in the south region of the Great Continent.

And make Human a link to the humans page?
Later in can be improved.
Although at this point many race descriptions are empty, so I don't know.

SigurdFireDragon wrote:We might as well see what happens with what has been done so far, though I do share some of these concerns. I think it would be much better for the project if they cross the finish line enthusiastically, instead of limping or being pushed across.

Sound advice.

Though I suspect enthusiasm is achievable if there is enough flexibility on modifications to the faction's recruitable unit set. And there does seem to be some amount of that. It might be worth exploring while the new development cycle is young. It would also be good if a consensus could be reached on what exactly are the essential, defining features of the faction. Then maybe weaker non-essentials could be transformed into features that blend better with the rest of wesnoth or are wider selling points.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:When you're comparing the dunefolk armour to full plate armour, I don't think it's fair to say the dunefolk have inferior armour. Plate armour is not categorically superior to the types of armour that the other races of Wesnoth use — it has better defence, sure, but it also has some disadvantages. In particular, I think it may actually be too hot to be feasible in a desert environment. In other words, the dunefolk probably have the technology to make plate armour comparable to that of Wesnoth, but have chosen not to for logistical reasons.

Well you cannot really know how to do something until you have done it. Loyalists actually use a lot of technologies that in our real life timeline were contemporary to hand cannons like the dwarves can fashion. But that does not at all mean the loyalists could develop black powder and early firearms in an afternoon. Because they have zero experience with them. Jumping from scale armor to precisely jointed full plate suits would likewise be difficult (it took quite a lot of centuries to do this in our real world).

In any case though, the smithing technology of the dwarves and drakes is still ahead of everyone else according to the race descriptions. This, plus their firearms, makes dwarves the preeminent technological power, especially when it comes down to things relevant to warfare (and wesnoth is after all a war game).

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Hmm, I might be misunderstanding the geography of Wesnoth, then. Is that the map from Oath of Allegiance?

If that map is canon, then the dunefolk can just as easily reach the capital of wesnoth (weldyn) as they can reach the elves.
Hmm, I can not recall whether or not that map is used in newer versions of the mainline campaign The South Guard...

Cold Steel wrote:
If that map is canon, then the dunefolk can just as easily reach the capital of wesnoth (weldyn) as they can reach the elves.
Hmm, I can not recall whether or not that map is used in newer versions of the mainline campaign The South Guard...

Cold Steel wrote:
If that map is canon, then the dunefolk can just as easily reach the capital of wesnoth (weldyn) as they can reach the elves.
Hmm, I can not recall whether or not that map is used in newer versions of the mainline campaign The South Guard...

Cold Steel wrote:
If that map is canon, then the dunefolk can just as easily reach the capital of wesnoth (weldyn) as they can reach the elves.
Hmm, I can not recall whether or not that map is used in newer versions of the mainline campaign The South Guard...

[EDIT: I didn't look hard enough. Whoops]. And what are those southern elves that keep on being referenced to anyway? I don't see any forests that are at all close, except for a small one near Weldyn. Even Southwood would be tough to reach due to the Sleepless Sea, and the possibly cursed Black Forest doesn't help either. A ship that goes around them maybe could reach it, though I doubt the elves would greet them warmly.

Pentarctagon wrote:

catagent101 wrote:Before the subject of the (un)natural obstacles to the realm of the Dunefolk restarts, I would like to point something out. In the 4th scenario of SotA, some Dunefolk - merchants probably - are briefly seen running into the cargo hold, and the unit image used for them is called "khalif" in the files (or "dunefolk" as of latest master), so it's them all right. The campaign - according to the wiki - occurs during 22-23 YW i.e. the Dunefolk have been known to Wesnoth for nearly as long as it has existed, given the distance a ship would have to go, and it can be assumed that the nation of the Dunefolk is about as old as the Kingdom of Wesnoth, if not older. Of course, this is extrapolating from a brief cameo, but it's worth noting given it's their only appearance in the mainline campaigns as of current. Who discovered who first is another matter entirely.

And, if I wasn't clear, I was referencing the filename of the unit sprite, not the side name. Of course that unit could be a Sindbad that somehow got stranded, and the first ship he could get was secretly chock-full of undead.

Last edited by catagent101 on February 5th, 2018, 12:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

And, if I wasn't clear, I was referencing the filename of the unit sprite, not the side name. The side name on the 1.12 add-on is Khalifate I think. Of course that unit could be a Sindbad that somehow got stranded, and the first ship he could get was secretly chock-full of undead.

It was race=human until mainlining. There was no special intention when changing it to khalifate.

Celtic Minstrel's proposal wrote:
The Dunefolk are a nomadic human culture inhabiting the dry deserts southeast of the known region of the continent. Tribes of the Dunefolk constantly roam the desert, leading their herds from one watering hole to another, as permanent large water sources are scares in the desert. The largest of these fortunate areas have given rise to a small number bustling Dunefolk cities, each of which enjoys a large measure of independence. Under the protection of warriors from friendly nomadic tribes, caravans carry trade across the harsh desert between the cities.

As a result of living in the harsh desert for unknown ages past, the Dunefolk have developed rational methods of enquiry, through which they continue to improve their knowledge of the world. The desert taught them to use every its gift carefully and efficiently, saving their knowledge and passing it on through the generations. The desert is an unforgiving mistress, requiring them to be no less then excellent at their activities. As a result, the Dunefolk are composed of cultured scholars, talented healers, and ferocious warriors who have mastered tactics to decimate their enemies in combat. Their skill in herbal medicine allows them to keep their warriors and workers always fresh and healthy, and in addition to steel and arrows, the Dunefolk have brought deadly fire and ferocious beasts into warfare.

It is known that the Dunefolk are involved in frequent skirmishes with Drakes and Trolls at the inland borders of the desert, in part over the rights to the more fertile territories and in part due to the rights over the desert herds. The more fertile highlands and deserts are an attractive region for the enterprising Dunefolk, and many would like to take those lands for themselves. On the other hand, they have more cordial relations with the neighbouring naga tribes, but due to dangerous sand worms and capricious jinn, they rarely venture as far west as the elven forests.

Common fear and distaste for undead and dark magic is even stronger among the Dunefolk. The people of the desert see it as a curse — uncontrollable, unpredictable and unnatural. They look at unlucky individuals, creatures and races that were touched with magic with a mix of fear and pity.

So basically, this is how I'm envisioning it at the current moment:

The dunefolk live mainly around the bay and the river, with a few inland cities further north. Thus, they occupy the southern half of the Sandy Wastes and the northern half of the Ashland Deserts.

The northwestern region of the Sandy Wastes is the hunting grounds of sand worms which limits their progress in this direction. There may also be jinn here; jinn likely also occupy the southern half of the Ashland Deserts, placing the dunefolk squarely in the middle of jinn territory. However, the areas that are least hostile for the dunefolk are most hostile for the jinn (who don't like water), so they don't really start conflicts (any jinn-dunefolk conflict would be initiated by the dunefolk).

There are three mountainous regions near the desert. I'm going to suggest that one of the northern two is where drakes and/or trolls live. There are swamps near the northeast mountains, so if you want drakes+saurians you could place the drakes there. Alternatively, drakes in the northeast mountains could work. The dunefolk and drakes don't really get along, fighting over land and resources. Any conflict between dunefolk and either trolls or saurians, on the other hand, is probably borne of alliances with drakes, rather than a direct grievance.

The Bay of Clouds (is that right? can't quite read it) is occupied by naga tribes. The dunefolk basically get along with these tribes, perhaps even trading with them.

There are elves in the forests along the west coast. Due to their distance and the sand worms, there is basically no contact between them and the dunefolk.

Wesnoth lies to the north of that map. As a result, the primary barrier between Wesnoth and the dunefolk is actually the same barrier between the elves and the dunefolk — the sand worms. Further to the east, that swamp forms a secondary barrier. The Sleepless Sea is also sort of a barrier.

I don't know what that island is to the southwest, it looks weird somehow...

Some discussion of the dunefolk being tamers has arisen. They probably get horses from the fertile regions around the river; camels, gazelles, and oxen/wildebeest/whatever (the UtBS beasts) from the desert interior; falcons from the more northern mountains OR maybe from the fertile river region; rocs/rukhs and/or wyverns from the southern mountains. (Wyverns may instead have been brought from the Old Continent.)

Of course, most of this is not set in stone, and in general I'd defer to Kwandulin on most details if his version contradicts mine.

Southeast of the known region of the continent -> I would argue that the region where they live is actually known to them, and the so-called known region is probably sort of unknown for them. So do we agree on writing the description from a Wesnoth-centric perspective?

Ferocious beasts into warfare -> Are you talking about the falcon? IMO, the falcon is all but ferocious. Or maybe you are thinking about wyvern and other strange beasts which may or may not be added to the faction? This part of the description actually makes sense only if we decide to add more beasts, so this decision should probably come first.

Reference to jinn. I don't like it. I think that adding jinn introduces supernatural elements that are not needed in their background.

On a side note, is Kwandulin's geography on its way to being accepted as canon?

zepko wrote:Southeast of the known region of the continent -> I would argue that the region where they live is actually known to them, and the so-called known region is probably sort of unknown for them. So do we agree on writing the description from a Wesnoth-centric perspective?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but yes, I was imagining the description to be from a Wesnoth-centric perspective.

zepko wrote:Ferocious beasts into warfare -> Are you talking about the falcon? IMO, the falcon is all but ferocious. Or maybe you are thinking about wyvern and other strange beasts which may or may not be added to the faction? This part of the description actually makes sense only if we decide to add more beasts, so this decision should probably come first.

True, the rukh and wyvern haven't been fully approved, so that section could be removed if the decision is made to not add them. This description won't be integrated for awhile, anyway, and by the time it is, we should know whether or not wyverns and rukhs are going to be present.

zepko wrote:Reference to jinn. I don't like it. I think that adding jinn introduces supernatural elements that are not needed in their background.

It could also reinforce their dislike of the supernatural, if they're forced to share the desert with clearly supernatural creatures.

zepko wrote:On a side note, is Kwandulin's geography on its way to being accepted as canon?

I believe so? Oath of Allegiance has been proposed for mainlining, and while that's not going to happen in time for 1.14, I think there's a good chance that it'll happen soon after.

I'm ok with Celtic_Minstrel's latest suggested description and with most of the geography stuff, but I think it's a bad idea to make Dunefolk into a super isolated nation. Sure, the environment is hostile and it would be plausible that it prevents the Dunefolk from having a big influence on the territories around Wesnoth, but the claim that there is no contact at all with Wesnoth remains implausible. We could spend a lot of time jumping through the hoops to explain how a huge civilisation remained isolated from other huge civilisations, or we could simply allow them to interact with Wesnoth and elves, etc.

For a long time, we had 6 factions, 5 of which have been commonly used in mainline campaigns, and Drakes which appear very rarely. I'd hate it if the Dunefolk ended up treated as Drakes were. Going forward, it'd be nice to see a mainline campaign for both Drakes and Dunefolk. It'd also be good if the presence of these two factions were more apparent in the existing mainline campaigns. Even changing some of the enemies in some mainline scenarios happening on the southern parts of the map into Dunefolk would be a step in the right direction. If they are so isolated, however, that can't be achieved.

Putting even more barriers on top of the geographical ones (like having desert worms conveniently blocking the most accessable path between the desert and southern Wesnoth) seems to serve only to avoid having Dunefolk make contact with the other mainline factions which is (in my opinion) the opposite of what we'd like to do in the long run. The northern part of the Sandy Wastes should be populated (if sparsely), thus allowing contact with pretty much all the other groups (even if that contact is somewhat limited).

The one problem I have with the current proposal is that I don't see why trolls would be involved in fights over the desert animals, or fertile land (unless the Dunefolk have taken up mushroom farming). Maybe also "in part due to the demands of their dwarvish allies."?

Caladbolg wrote:I'm ok with Celtic_Minstrel's latest suggested description and with most of the geography stuff, but I think it's a bad idea to make Dunefolk into a super isolated nation. Sure, the environment is hostile and it would be plausible that it prevents the Dunefolk from having a big influence on the territories around Wesnoth, but the claim that there is no contact at all with Wesnoth remains implausible. We could spend a lot of time jumping through the hoops to explain how a huge civilisation remained isolated from other huge civilisations, or we could simply allow them to interact with Wesnoth and elves, etc.

For a long time, we had 6 factions, 5 of which have been commonly used in mainline campaigns, and Drakes which appear very rarely. I'd hate it if the Dunefolk ended up treated as Drakes were. Going forward, it'd be nice to see a mainline campaign for both Drakes and Dunefolk. It'd also be good if the presence of these two factions were more apparent in the existing mainline campaigns. Even changing some of the enemies in some mainline scenarios happening on the southern parts of the map into Dunefolk would be a step in the right direction. If they are so isolated, however, that can't be achieved.

Putting even more barriers on top of the geographical ones (like having desert worms conveniently blocking the most accessable path between the desert and southern Wesnoth) seems to serve only to avoid having Dunefolk make contact with the other mainline factions which is (in my opinion) the opposite of what we'd like to do in the long run. The northern part of the Sandy Wastes should be populated (if sparsely), thus allowing contact with pretty much all the other groups (even if that contact is somewhat limited).

I kinda get your point, but I also definitely don't want extensive contact. We could probably downplay the danger of the worms a little, if that helps? So then, the dunefolk have explored the northwestern Sandy Wastes, but they don't have any permanent settlements there due to the worms, and for similar reason the herders avoid the area whenever possible.

Speaking of which...

Caladbolg wrote:Going forward, it'd be nice to see a mainline campaign for both Drakes and Dunefolk. It'd also be good if the presence of these two factions were more apparent in the existing mainline campaigns.

I seem to recall Kwandulin also had a drake-centric campaign. Maybe that too could be a candidate for mainlining at some point.

catagent101 wrote:The one problem I have with the current proposal is that I don't see why trolls would be involved in fights over the desert animals, or fertile land (unless the Dunefolk have taken up mushroom farming). Maybe also "in part due to the demands of their dwarvish allies."?

I think you've misunderstood something. I don't see these trolls as being allied with dwarves or orcs. They may be allied with drakes, or they may just be there, minding their own business. In other words, if there's dunefolk-troll conflict, it's because of a drake-troll alliance.