Can Swans finish in the top four?

The Swans have reached the halfway mark of the season with just six wins. They've blown five games - two of them by just one point - and are clinging desperately to their position in the bottom of the top eight.

Two of their most important players - Barry Hall and Adam Goodes - have been out of sorts for much of the year - and Tadhg Kennelly, rated by Roos as the second most important component in the Swans' line-up, looks set to miss up to five games.

They've only beaten one current top-eight team [Hawthorn] and are about to face fifth-placed Collingwood and first-placed Geelong in the coming fortnight.

So can the Swans finish the season placed in the top four and give themselves a realistic chance of appearing in their third successive grand final?

Given their past history of finding form in the second half of the season, you'd have to be a fool to write the Swans off just yet. But it won't be a walk in the park.

In both 2005 and 2006, it took at least 14 wins and a great percentage to finish in the top four.

That means the Swans need to win at least eight - or maybe even nine - of their next 11 games over the coming three months to squeeze into the top four. That would mean they finish the season with 14 or 15 wins.

We can only afford to lose a maximum of three games - the most likely losses coming from our clashes against Geelong, Collingwood and West Coast.

There is no doubt they can make the top four, but the boys, especially Big Bad Baz, will have to be firing on all cylinders.

Carn the Swannies!

Do you reckon the Swans can pull it off or have they already blown their chances?

Photo: Simon Alekna

Posted
by Jano GibsonJune 13, 2007 9:35 AM

LATEST COMMENTS

The rest of Australia is hoping that we don't have to see the Swans in another grand final. We're all looking forward to some real footy.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 11:30 AM

Well we're doing it the hard way home AGAIN! But the comp is very very even on any given day (look at recent results from cellar dwellers versus top eights). Perhaps too early to really tell - though if we lost another key player (like ace goal kicker Leo Barry!) we might well be up against it.

Posted by: OReilly Ace of Pies on June 13, 2007 11:33 AM

ooh, pippinu, you scare us all so much. gosh, did you even watch the last two GFs? if you weren't excited by those, you're not an afl fan - therefore, grow up mate and stop bad mouthing the biggest and most popular australian sport, country-wide.

now, as for the swans, i doubt it. we have a LOT of improvement ahead of us, but tough games are on the horizon. if we play at the level we played against port and hawthorn for rest of the year, then maybe. but we haven't been good enough consistently.

only if we consistently play to the best of our ability can we make it. just a matter of finding that. if/when we do though, you can be sure we'll give weagles & kittens a real contest, as our playing list, when at their best, is hot property.

Posted by: blazer on June 13, 2007 11:41 AM

Well, it's not absolutely necessary to get 14 or 15 wins to get into the top 4. If you check this link:....

(WARNING - if you're a bit of a trainspotter like me, this site should come with a health warning)....

you'll see that since the introduction of 22-round seasons, in '94, '97 and 2002 teams got into the top 4 while winning less than 14 games. In '94 TWO teams were in the top 4 with 13-9 records.

What happens in most seasons is you get two or three teams running away at the top and another two or three teams badly off the pace at the bottom. This has the effect of "stretching the field" and this is where you usually need 14 or 15 wins to slip into 4th spot.

However in some seasons the field remains bunched. This is shaping up to be one of those seasons. West Coast aren't bolting away and are in fact showing distinct signs of the dreaded "premiership hangover", which often manifests itself in mid-season (it did for the Swans last year if you remember. We were 7-3 then we slumped to 8-7 and nearly went out of the eight altogether). At the other end there is only team - Richmond - who are hopelessly off the pace. The leaders of '05 and '06 (Eagles, Swans, Adelaide) are either struggling with injuries or showing signs of the "hangover" and a bunch of mid-table teams from last year (Essendong, Collingwood, Hawthorn) have distinctly improved.

All this leads one to think it might end up being one of those very bunched years. 12-10 might get you a top four spot this year.

Posted by: beefart on June 13, 2007 11:55 AM

does any1 really think the hawks, pies, bombers or roos have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the flag? Let alone hanging on to the 8 and keeping the mighty easterners from glory! I mean, seriously folks.

Posted by: bojaman on June 13, 2007 12:19 PM

I think the swannies are nicely placed for a big second half of the season. While we might be placed 7th on the ladder at the moment, we are only 2 wins from the top and are warming our way into the season (as has been the case in the past few years). Yes, the consistency has been lacking, but there's plenty of time left folks.

I find it really surprising that people are still writing us off given what we have achieved over the last 2 seasons. Our current position is made even more remarkable when you consider that some our big guns aren't even firing yet, and we've had our worst run of injuries for years.

We'll be there come September!!

Posted by: Digger on June 13, 2007 12:43 PM

So Pippinu is the new Sam with nothing better to do in his lonely little life.

Of course we have an excellent chance to make, however continue to play as we are, then no chance at all. Barry Hall needs to lift, and stop playing for free kicks, and complaining, take advantage of the new rules and get in front for a change! Amon Buchannan needs to learn how to kick! he got about 30 disposals last week and I guarantee that only probably 50% were effective, the same goes for Nick Fosdike. He seems to always "lollypop" his kicks giving the ball too much air time and allowing the opposition to close in, way too many hospital passes. They also take too long to get rid of the ball, quite often ignoring the first safe option and then getting in trouble and often giving away free kicks or coughing up possession - ok Leo!!!!

Goodes will improve soon, he is too good a player, Jude Bolton is finally finding some from and Kirky is well Kirky..

Craig Bolton, Ryan O'keefe, Nick Malcieski and Peter Everett just keep playing the way you are, easily the best four all year, plus probably Jolly.

Of the rest, West Coast will be there, the Cats have a history of being mid season finalists, and then crash and burn, but have an excellent list this year (and yes Sam that hurt saying that- alot!). My roughie is North Melbourne and I think Adelaide will come on in the second half of the season.

So the only teams I believe have the chance are West Coast, Cats, Kangas, the Crows and Sydney, and with the competition being tight, 12 wins should mak the top 4, so keep the percentage up boys!

yay 999999

Posted by: dean on June 13, 2007 12:48 PM

The one point win loss against WCE is being a bit misrepresented. That should have been an absolute spanking of WCE given the top shelf players missing from WCE's ranks that night. On that basis Sydney has improved a lot - just not steadily. But you'd have to think the trend is up rather than down. The question is whether they can keep improving fast enough to improve their ladder position.

Beefart, I dont agree WCE are in a premiership hangover - theyve had 3 tough away games and have some sore players and players missing or coming back from suspensions. With Embley and Cousins back and Kerr and Judd firing again things should improve in the back end of the season. It will be interesting to see how the swans fare down at Skilled Stadium and how Geelong go at Subi. Those will be the real tests - IMO Hawthorn in Melbourne are a challenge only for the second raters and have had surprise on their side this season. The double leg roadtrips to Geelong and Hobart tend to be tough for WA teams

Posted by: yeah right on June 13, 2007 1:02 PM

I'll be the first one to agree with pippinu with regards to the quality of game the swans play, however, they are winning with the type of game they play and therefore can't be written off just on that level. There have been many times when i've been embarrassed to be a swans supporter during the length of a game but its the end result that counts and the majority of their game is good quality... its just that last couple of minutes in each quarter that are a little disappointing... at least they wont run through the goal posts at every opportunity...

Posted by: Dave on June 13, 2007 1:32 PM

Blazer
I wasn't bad mouthing anyone or anything other than the Swans.

Andrew Demetriou got it spot on exactly two years ago, and nothing has changed in the meantime.

When a team can have 56% possession, and yet just scrape in for a win - there is something seriously wrong with both that particular team's gameplan, and with the state of footy generally (that keepings off footy can be rewarded thus).

Deano
There is no way known that 12 wins will make the top 4 - indeed a team has a chance of missing the top 8 with 12 wins (on percentage) - I know because my team is a good chance of being one of those.

If my memory serves me well, in the last 12 years Richmond missed out on at least one occasion in amassing 12 wins.
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 1:52 PM

We will be in the 8, but on current form, I doubt top 4. I don't think we've got any chance to contest another GF... and part of me hopes not (a third in a row would be guaranteed heart attack material).
Oh, and one more thing....pippinu (stupid name) ... p... off.

Posted by: edith head on June 13, 2007 2:45 PM

If my memory serves me well, in the last 12 years Richmond missed out on at least one occasion in amassing 12 wins.
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pippinu

* Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 1:52 PM

Sort of - but they could've got in in both years (1994 and 1998) as the teams that came in 7th 8th and 9th were all on 12 wins, but Richmonds relatively poor percentage kept them out. 1994 was a poor percentage, and 1998, well, it wasn't enough.

does any1 really think the hawks, pies, bombers or roos have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the flag? Let alone hanging on to the 8 and keeping the mighty easterners from glory! I mean, seriously folks.

Posted by: bojaman on June 13, 2007 12:19 PM

you forgot the Cats and I'm a bombers man.

Don't reckon Sydney will make the GF, and doubt top four.

West Coast will win it again.

cheers
Redb

Posted by: Redb on June 13, 2007 3:22 PM

This ladder is the tightest it has been in a long time. Yes the Swans are 7th on percentages but there are only 2 games between 1st and 10th.

We have 2 of the toughest games (Pies and Cats) as our next 2. Going into the 3 games (Hawks, Pies and Cats) I would have been happy to win 1. They have.

My top 4 still include the Swans, just. Win 2 of the next 3 and we are better placed than we were at round 14 last year. That is achievable.

Any chance of moving the Telstra game from Round 19 v St Kilda to Round 22 v Hawthorn which is shaping as a top 4 decider for the Swans and possibly the Hawks depending on the next few games for both teams.

The Swans can make the top 4. 56 assures top 4, 52 a possibility given the ladder. The Swans have the 3rd best percentage behind the Cats and the Weagles (that may surprise some on this blog) so in a bunched field have an advantage.

Eh? Checking the RealFooty site, it says WC have been A-H-A. Anyway, who says Cousins IS coming back this year? I'm not saying they are in a major schlump, but they're definitely not setting the world on fire either.

Getting back to the Swans - I think most clubs have now figured out a lot of the Swans' patterns. Example - Hally running away from CHF towards the wings; every club they have played so far this year has got this sussed and they are dropping players back in front of Hall to prevent him getting the mark. At the same time they are clogging up the CHF spot Hall just vacated to prevent O'Keefe, Goodes, Jolly etc running into there.

They need to think up a few new plans. As I've said before, I reckon (like anybody cares) that those plans should include Heath Grundy and Luke Vogels. It's all very well saving 'em up for the next incarnation, but we need them NOW!

Posted by: beefart on June 13, 2007 3:49 PM

i'll say it again - percentage is crap. unfair, uneven, means nothing. go on results during the season, or have a playoff.

(note we played the Pies once in 1994 and beat them by 70 points - I was there, it was hilarious - and were 1-0 against the Dees, too. no justice!)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 13, 2007 4:17 PM

pippinu on June 13, 2007 1:52 PM

I agree with you but I feel that 'real footy' is long gone. AFL is going to the dogs these days - this season especially. Every weekend I watch my game get more and more inconsistent with questionable umpiring decisions and generally inconsistent calls, not to mention the new "rules" players have to abide by. These constant bad decisions culminated in the Melbourne Collingwood match. How can anyone agree, no matter what club they support that the umpiring on Monday was unbiased and consistent? I watched in disbelief as Melbourne were blatantly given at least six goals courtesy of their friends the umpires.

How can the AFL bring in these new rules - the "in the back" etc and have their umpires apply them to one team and leave the other virtually exempt? This was highlighted on Monday a number of times where Collingwood were harshly penalised only to allow a Melbourne player commit the same offence and not be penalised at all. This was once my favourite game but I fear that I will be no longer following as it is ruined by the worthless biased umpires that are easily influenced by the mostly footy illiterate crowd. But yeah, I am hoping for a bottom eight finish for Sydney this season - back where they belong.

Posted by: tomaoxomoxoa on June 13, 2007 4:32 PM

The rest of Australia is hoping that we don't have to see the Swans in another grand final. We're all looking forward to some real footy.

Posted by: pippinu

What is real footy? Give me a break would you! On the ABC radio on Saturday all these anti Swan moron's were harking on about the boring style of Sydney. Even one junior coach turned wannabe a better expert than AFL premiership winning coaches was going on about how he teaches his kids to be hard and aggressive at the footy.

And another person from Adelaide said he would not pay to watch the Swans but then ironically, Adelaide and Geelong have a low scoring game of tempo footy. And it was the Crows who invented the word!

St Kilda were using flooding tactics in 2002. West Coast play one on one footy all the time but they are blessed with the best midfield seen probably since the Hawthorn lot of the 80's.

The Swans tactics actually bring out the hypocrisy amongst footy fans. If whatever side you barrack for, if your side employed the tactics the Swans use and your team won the flag, you would be as happy as larry.

In fact every side is employing these tactics and it was really Adelaide who started using the ugly tactics Sydney are accused of using.

Yet because its Sydney, the anti Sydney sentiments coming from Victoria and South Australia mainly and New South Wales based Victorian fans like Sam, would not own up to that.

The worst thing Sydney did was to win a flag. Maybe if they were playing this free flowing footy Roos had them playing in 2003, people might leave them alone. But that tactic was exposed by Neil Craig who employed tempo one on one footy to stop the Swans run, who when are up and running, are one of the quickest sides in the comp.

So they strided for balance. If they had a Judd, they could risk playing more free flowing every week. But they don't.

If Sam or pippinu likes to bag the Swans tactics, well here is a news flash: Welcome to the modern game people! Its changed. Blame money and progress for it.

I have said it before and I will say it again. West Coast have a rock star midfield, all glam and flare. Sydney are a punk rock midfield, all guts and noise but it blends together well enough to produce something that works and is successful.

These two sides play the same game but one is more attractive because of the quality of the midfield. And its no surprise the last half dozen matches between the sides have been decided by no less than 14 points. And four of the matches have been finals in which two of the finals being GF's. And unless you have been living under a rock, you would know Sydney won one and the Eagles won the other.

The purists don't like it but tough. If you don't like it, do watch it! It got the Swans a flag so deal with it. Just when its your side doing it, be a good dog and be quiet.

As for the Swans top 4 chances, I think this year the premiership is wide open. The most open it has been, probably since the mid 90's. The Swans will make the finals but don't count on another grand final. In fact I would prefer it if we won a spoon so would clean out the cupboard a little and get some quality midfielders. We need some. We got good defending midfielders, but not great attacking midfielders. Goodes is a great attacking player but he has gone in to big slumber and one hopes he wakes up and gets out of it.

Geelong have their best chance since 1995 to challenge for a flag. Hopefully history doesn't repeat for them - they have a history of choking.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 13, 2007 4:52 PM

Don
thanks for the stats - but it's not a case of "sort of" - it's fair dinkum - you can miss the 8 with 12 wins! (which is all I said)

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 4:54 PM

I'm hoping interstate sides keep dominating. Swans improve their style of play to increase local support and Ben Cousins gets off the gear!
As long as AFL remains the most skillful football code in the country then good luck to all the other codes..hahaha!!

WCE 92,94,07!
diplomatic Juddy

Posted by: Juddy on June 13, 2007 4:56 PM

If the umpires treat us fairly, we will make the GF. But that is a big if. We have been systematically ripped off for at least 4 years and players such as James Hird can abuse the umps and receive frees whenever anyone gets within a 2m radius of him.

Roos is 100% sopot on, Sydneysiders will vote with their feet if this anti-sydney bias continues and in my view the fish stinks from the head, DEMETRIOU. I thought Roos had the chance to emulate Mark Williams when he said "Alan Scott you were wrong" to Demetriou. In hindsight he should have done this and given Sydney fans the cream on the cake. Biting his tongue has done us no favours.

Demtriou, fix it or else back to league we go.

Posted by: gipped again on June 13, 2007 5:44 PM

The swans will definitely make it to the top, afterall without them there's no decent contest. The Swans are AFL, Amen.

Posted by: Christine on June 13, 2007 5:55 PM

BTW In mentioning 94, you forget that was a 24 round season (OK there were only 15 teams so byes etc) BUT after 22 rounds Richmond were 5th on percentages with 48 points but failed to win either of their last 2 matches finishing outside the 8.

Just a nice anomaly as I think it was the only year with the 15 teams that they had 24 rounds.

Posted by: Gavin on June 13, 2007 7:15 PM

I think we will finish 6th or 7th,
Swans are too patchy to make top 4 from here.

Posted by: Andrew on June 13, 2007 7:30 PM

WP Cooper

The Swans have been in the last two grand finals - what do you want? for everyone to come here and tell you how wonderful they are?!

Redb might be able to tell us what kind of plaudits he got from opposition supporters when the bombers dominated 2000 - he would have got none from me! Ditto Michael C in the mid to late 90s!

If you're all waiting for congratulations, you're all gonna have to slap each other's backs - don't count on the rest of us doing so!

I would dearly love to have something positive to say to all of you about the Swans at this minute - but I simply can't see anything that warrants such favourable comment. Let's be honest, if the CEO of the AFL is gonna get stuck into you - don't expect any favours from anyone else!

One day you will all thank me for this.
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 7:58 PM

Coops, the Cats were probably the best team in '97 but were stung by an unkind draw - a "home" final in wk 1 at the G under lights against the inventors of Friday night footy, the 'Roos; and then a trip to Crow Park to be robbed by the umpires.

Personally, was happy to see them go out, always am, but I think that really was the one that got away. And I don't think Ayres ever really recovered from it.

And it was the major reason the AFL changed to the current and vastly improved final 8.

On your other point, nuh. Can you imagine how bad things would have got if the Tigers won a flag playing like the Swans (we'd be worse at it, for a start.) There'll be a 1980s and early 90s footy revival channel on Foxtel next. A great demographic split. bring it on...

Did anyone see the Cats and Tigers from 1967 GF on ABC 2 the other night. Now THAT was a game.

You are right though about the Eagles' midfield, top-notch. Would love to see how they went at Waverley in the mud against the Hawks and with more limited interchange - I suspect the Hawks circa 1988 would make eagle pies of them.

For the record, my lost post predicted Swans to end on 56 and high 120's, so top 4 a definite possibility. Think Freo are the wildcard - can't stand them but they have a run-in against most of their competition, so if they win 7 or 8 they will have done a lot of damage to the teams above them. Hoping not.

Crows to win from 5th - why not?

Posted by: peter warrington on June 13, 2007 11:26 PM

Swans will make the top 4 simply for the reason that there arn't 4 sides currently better than them at the moment. Anyone who says Sydneys style of play is boring obviously hasn't watched enough Sydney games
their run out of the backline is easily the best in the comp.

Eagles, Cats will contest the g/f
hopefully to see a geelong victory,
living in WA and not being an eagles or dockers supporter, quickly makes you extremely anti eagles, the amount of plaudits there team gets over here is shocking, back in 2005 they were being heralded as better than the Brisbane premiership teams of 2001/02/03 at their best.

either way top 4
cats
eagles
swans
hawks/dons/bulldogs

dockers should fail to make the 8 on current form, the match against richmond was a joke

Posted by: James on June 14, 2007 1:28 AM

James
bullies are stuck at the back of the pack with Cross and Griffen out for 8 weeks - at this stage they are just looking to scrape into the 8 like last year

Indeed, with WB vs Freo this weekend in the Darwin humidity - it could spell curtains for the loser for the year

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 2:23 AM

BTW In mentioning 94, you forget that was a 24 round season (OK there were only 15 teams so byes etc) BUT after 22 rounds Richmond were 5th on percentages with 48 points but failed to win either of their last 2 matches finishing outside the 8.

Just a nice anomaly as I think it was the only year with the 15 teams that they had 24 rounds.

* Posted by: Gavin on June 13, 2007 7:15 PM

Those stats that I posted are from the end of round 24.

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 4:54 PM

True, but if they had scored more or conceded less, they would've got in. :)

Posted by: Don Henley's Ghost on June 14, 2007 8:36 AM

James, I think the colour and movement of running from the backline is as interesting as touch footy. All that conceded space. that fleeting 12 seconds of exhilaration, preceded by minutes of strategising trying to clear the space. sounds like rugby league when you write it like that. Anyway, not everyone like's Goya's black period, either.

(maybe those who think we're at risk of becoming netball are on to something - at least in netball there's limits on where people can run to, how many in certain areas etc - creates contested ball situations across the field. and negates flooding. niiiiice.)

If the Swans had've won just one of those games they lost, they would be sitting in 3rd place on the ladder. I think they are very well placed for the second half of the season, and hopefully they can start it off by mincing the Pies!

Posted by: Ash on June 14, 2007 10:39 AM

I am a notoriously hopeless seer but what the hey.

Swans could make 4. Would prob involve drop off from the likes of
Collies, HawHawthorn, Hessendon. I'm with whoever said get Grundy and Vogels in to take a few grabs inside 50. Loved Leaping's 150 metre penalty brace of goals.

At least 3 sides play more appalling footy than Sydney. Hawthorn ( credit to Sydney ) St Kilda ( could the commentators have been more biased toward them though? )and the abysmal Adelaide.

Regarding the hands in the back bizzo it's still a goer but I think it needs to modified along the old push in the back bizzo they ignored for 10 years. That way stock in trade pushers still get pinged.

and if richmond had won the 8 winnable games they have lost, they'd be on top.

and so it goes...

wa sinteresting to see the Lions being specked for the spoon, in from $34 to $11. they do look tired, old, bereft of ideas and in need of a new coach.

but hard to see the Tigers, the Dees and the Blues all winning enough games to reel them in. still, could be like '97, when the field packs, nobody wants to cement 8th (42 points was enough I think?), Tigers came home with a wet sail etc etc. all points to a Crow flag, and a third Norm Smith for McLeod.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 11:28 AM

"ball! torpie, stab Jezaulenko you beauty"

Maayte, Peter, 1967 to 1974 was a long time ago!

This reminds me: it's funny that the papers still show the teams in the usual 18 positions. There was time (around the aforesaid period) when the news would be that, say, Kelvin Templeton has been named at centre-half forward rather than full forward - and it would actually mean that he was in that exact position!!

But that quaint business went out with Parkinese in the 80s. We then had midfielders (and increasingly lots of them). By the time Rocket worked out that you could choke the life out of other teams on the tiny SCG (and Plugger could hold his own upfront) - we basically got rid of foward pockets and half-foward flankers!

So rather than continue this charade of naming players in 18 positions - I like the idea of perhaps using an aussie rules rough and ready version of the soccer formation display system.

For example, with Sydney, they would use a 1-7-7-2-1 formation. This means that Leo Barry is down back, he has 7 team mates choking the space between half-back and the centre line, there are 7 midfielders clogging up every ball up, Bazza and, say, O'keefe are floating around half-forward, and either O'Louglin or Davis is tricking up a kick deep in the forward line (when one of them is there, the other is certain to be either choking up the half-back flank or clogging up the ball ups).

All who agree say AYE! I think the ayes have it.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 11:39 AM

Posted by: bojaman on June 13, 2007 12:19 PM

Which is what we thought about Essendon mid season in '93. Premiership teams need a dose of luck usually. Who knows who might get lucky at the right time of the year, get an armchair run through September and - quite often - the shoulda been Grand Final will be contested the week before.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 13, 2007 11:26 PM

It was a good night back in '97 when Carey led the Rooboys to knock off Geelong. He'd been struggling with his shoulder that he'd wrecked in Rnd 1 at the 'G, wet night, unveil the Premiership flag, lose Carey and lose to Melb.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 9:45 AM

Please - no limits on movement in regular play.
No offside.
No line across half way.
The flood invites man on man - we just need more coaches willing to accept the challenge. It's most likely saving the short term careers of Pagan and Laidley.

btw - the ability for a defender to run off his forward and perhaps kick a goal is as central to the game as the ability of a forward to push up to help out in defence - however, the ability to rotate freely 4 players off the bench removes the qualification that doing such hard running may be counter productive - if you follow my meaning. Forget more rules - instead, a small step backwards.

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 7:58 PM

Ess mid to late 90s. I loved the Roos playing them. Usually we won. And in '96 and '99 we won flags that Sheedy still reckons were rightfully his.....only thing being, they didn't even make the GF!!! ha ha ha!!!

Posted by: Michael C on June 14, 2007 12:23 PM

Those stats that I posted are from the end of round 24.

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 4:54 PM

True, but if they had scored more or conceded less, they would've got in. :)

* Posted by: Don Henley's Ghost on June 14, 2007 8:36 AM

Still my point was that, had the season been 22 Rounds not 24, 48 was enough for top 4. But as I said it was an anomalous season anyway. One for the trivia nights

Posted by: Gavin on June 14, 2007 1:26 PM

ah, 96 and 99, and Sheedy and his tales. he is the Tolkien of football.

in 1996 I think you could mount a case for any of Roos, Swans, Lions and the Eagles to be the best team, but not the Dons. (the Lions lost rd 22 at Viccy Park - last game there I think - to the lowly PIes, costing them top spot - could have been a Lion v Eagle final otherwise.) the Dons only made the PF because they as WK 1 losers got to play wk 1 winning Eagles in Melbourne. It should have been Swan v Eagle in Sydney on the PF and Swans had them covered that year. So Sheedy talks with foooked tongue.

In 1999, the payback came. West Coast (5th) won against the odds in Melb in week 1 but had to play the losing Carlton (6th) in melb in week 2. Malthouse and the players spat the dummy, the Blues won easily, which meant they were fresh enough to tip the Bombers out the next week.

Roos v Bombers that year was illuminating - Bombers win 141-106 in rd 2 and 156-138 in rd 17. they had North's measure, and it shows how poor Nth's defence was. in fact they conceded more points than any other team in the 8 that year. bizarre.

also worth remembering that the Lions were possibly the gun team that year, won their last 8 straight by 31, 39 (Sts at Waverley), 100, 52 (Port away), 39 (Crows away), 114, 55 (melb away) and 42 (pies away). ran into Nth in a PF with injuries to Voss and others -j ust like 1996.

all in all, a lucky flag for North for mine, but you can't begrudge them 2 wins out the sustained excellence from 1993-2000.

and Sheedy could have won in 90 and 99 but got one in 93 that was a bit of a fluke. them's the breaks.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 1:52 PM

huh? they still only played 22 matches, though, and no points for byes.

what's worse is that we only played our bunnies the pies and the dees and the roos once, but had to play the Eagles away etc etc

until there is a proper and equitable draw, all flags since 1987 are tainted!

(recalling %, Tigers had 117 in 1996 and Hawks only 97. but they had a a draw, so got in by 2 points. yet we played the hapless Royboys twice, others didn't. It's a SHOCKING system)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 2:05 PM

WP Cooper

The Swans have been in the last two grand finals - what do you want? for everyone to come here and tell you how wonderful they are?!

Posted by pippinu

Are you admitting the Swans are actually a good team? Thanks for pointing that out. Even the commentators point that out. They are a well drilled and well coached team who lack the stars. They play for each other and are a champion team.

And they have probably hit a brick wall, which happens. And you think I am one eyed then you would have missed the bit in previous posts where I have tipped the Swans to not make the GF this year. I actually believe it will be an Victorian GF between Geelong and Hawthorn. But a major problem for the Hawks is they are too one dimensional - too reliant on Franklin. Teams will work that out very quickly. Which is what Sydney did.

West Coast are the team to beat but I am tipping them to fade out as well.

The premiership is wide open, and probably the most open it has been since 1997 when there was no clear favourite for the flag.

In answer to your question, no. I am just sick of one eyed Melbourne centric criticism, or criticism coming from fans of Melbourne teams, aimed at the Swans with out any fact or logic and just reaks of hypocrisy - pretty much regurgitating the likes of Tim Lane, Stan Alves and Robert Walls, and hundreds of other Melbourne journalists. Just like yours. None of the criticism makes sense. And you could bet your bottom dollar if it was Essendon (and incidently, Sheedy is Roos biggest allie) or Collingwood, no one would be saying a word.

Like I said, if you don't like where the game is headed or going don't watch it. I watched the Rugby League State of Origin last night, and I have never seen anything more boring in my life. It was terrible, worse than any Swans game ever ...

Peter Warrington ... I see your point, I am just sick of the Swans being criticised or singled out for an ugly style of play the Crows have been playing as well.

Any way the Swans got a flag out of it. There just seems to be a lot of sour grapes coming from down south because from 2003 to 2005, the Swans were supposed to finish last. They didn't finish last. They finished 3rd, 5th, and 1st ...

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 14, 2007 4:24 PM

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 1:52 PM

THat's exactly it. The Roos might have been a little lucky in '96 and '99 - but then again would've been considered a little unlucky had they lost. Certainly in '98 they were unlucky to lose. In '94 were unlucky to not make the GF, and certainly would've given WCE a better run than Geelong at that point.

Essendon - best ever in 2000? Or, just the example of everything going their way - no injuries, no suspensions, no bad luck. But - they probably deserved it.

The good teams keep presenting. Used to be 3 out of 12 would get to Prelim or better, now it's 4 out of 16.

Must say, Roos in 90s had an apparent slow midfield. Bulldogs and Swans especially had been able to expose it - on a given day.

------

One point about any draw - not everybody plays a given team on a the same day and with the same line up - or in the same weather etc - there's so many variables I've just decided not to worry about the inequity of the draw - it ain't gonna change real quick so it's not worth worrying about.

Posted by: Michael C on June 14, 2007 5:22 PM

Pagan's Roos not as great Barassi's 1974-78 outfit.

Barass can rabbit on about "handball, handball, handball" in 1970 but I prefer the "Long bombs to Snake" in North's epic 1977 campaign. Still the only team to play 5 finals in a series.

Sydney are halfway to em

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 14, 2007 5:47 PM

The rest of Australia is hoping that we don't have to see the Swans in another grand final. We're all looking forward to some real footy.

_______
pippinu

* Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 11:30 AM

Pippinu, the rest of Australia should be bloody grateful to the Swans and Paul Roos. Since he took over, he has coached them into the toughest, most accountable team ever seen in the game.

My point? Well, because of their style of play, they have delivered more nail-biters than any other team ever. In a code that traditionally has the most promiscuous scoring of any kind of football, time and time again we've seen the Swans win or lose by a matter of a point or two. Connected to that, they've delivered this incredible rivalry with West Coast which has had everyone glued to their chairs. In an era of hugely anti-climactic grand finals, these two teams have given us two of the best ever.

Yes, we all love the speccies and the long bombs and the fast-flowing game, but the Swans are entirely within the rules of the game to play the way they do. They are under no obligation whatsoever to deliver attractive footy. You would know that, so what are you suggesting - that the rules committee make yet more changes? We've all seen this year how popular that is with fans, players and coaches. Stop whinging about this fictitious golden era and be grateful for the one that we're right in the middle of now.

Posted by: rory on June 14, 2007 5:53 PM

WP Cooper

Of course it's sour grapes! What do you want, a medal?!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 6:12 PM

forget all this Swans focus, I can't believe Richmond's very own Nathan Foley, leading our B%F by a mile and the leading clearance winner in the comp, is $401 for the Brownlow, and $101 for the place. Wise readers will recall I tipped him on the Slog - get set now, and save on Hird at $17 the win and a crazy $5+ the place for the umpires' golden boy.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 14, 2007 10:27 PM

Coops, the other difference I think is that there's only one team in Sydney, and one team we read about in the SMH. Is someone like the Pies was playing like the Swans, the Melbourne coverage would be on the "dashing Bullies" or the "brave" Roos.

the Swans are all anyone sees up here, so of course their many positives and negatives are amplified way out of whack.

not the Swans' fault - but maybe the ultimate argument for a more robust, nuanced and balanced coverage by the SMH (and therefore nice to see a story on Rama today.)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 15, 2007 10:06 AM

Heard Tony Morwood on SEN last night from the Swans 25 yr in Sydney function.

He noted at the time they had about 3800 members - and then in the early '90s around 2000 members. Now - almost 40,000 members, of which about 10,000 are Melbourne based.

Just shows how strong a dual market presence the Swans have.

And I just think about when David Gallop at the start of the year stated that the NRL should focus on increase club members - with only about 50,000 combined amongst the whole competition.

OK, you scare me. Who let the demented Collingwood supporters in disguise on here!

This guy is worse than Sam, who is my usual arch nemsis! Just joking sam! LOL

Yes please ... It just seems that people in Melbourne have not liked to have been proven wrong. First they thought the Swans would get the spoon - they didn't. Then it was, they will never win a premiership with their "ugly" style of play - they did. And now its back to the ugly style of play but they are a good team, but geez Hall and Goodes are going shite at the moment. Well at least they got one of those observations right.

Full credit to Paul Roos. The Swans epitomise what true character and spirit is all about. Against all odds, they have defied every single bit of criticism, starting from the big bosses at the AFL and down. And the little man can not handle being proven wrong.

So yes, a medal would be nice, gold plated with a "this medal was given to me by some one who is bitter, sad and sorry" inscribed on it.

But yes Peter Warrington, lets forget about the Swans and talk about something new - like the stupid push in the back rule that ruined the Collingwood v Melbourne match on Monday.

Has any one bothered to blame the rule changes for the ugly matches we are seeing. Mondays match was as uglier game you'll see all season.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

I would dearly love to have something positive to say to all of you about the Swans at this minute - but I simply can't see anything that warrants such favourable comment. Let's be honest, if the CEO of the AFL is gonna get stuck into you - don't expect any favours from anyone else!

One day you will all thank me for this.
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 13, 2007 7:58 PM

Well pipsqueak, dont bother contributing to the SWANS Blog then. What a loser

Posted by: dean on June 15, 2007 11:15 AM

Taking up Peter W's challenge to all, perhaps Sloggers might be interested in following how a kid from St Ignatius' College goes in his debut for the bullies in the Darwin humidity against Freo tomorrow evening. The boy's name is Malcolm Lynch and he's a Tiwi Islander, but did some of his schooling at Riverview, during which he represented NSW/ACT.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 12:07 PM

Dean, are you Dean Stockwell circa Blue Velvet?

Posted by: peter warrington on June 15, 2007 6:57 PM

Deano
one day you will thank me for gracing you with my presence

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 8:12 AM

I would dearly love to have something positive to say to all of you about the Swans at this minute - but I simply can't see anything that warrants such favourable comment. Let's be honest, if the CEO of the AFL is gonna get stuck into you - don't expect any favours from anyone else!

One day you will all thank me for this.
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu

I missed this bit largely because I was too focused on responding to the other things that spelt out I.D.I.O.T in them. But this takes the cake, and dean thanks for pointing it out, and well said.

What planet have you been living on? 4 months after Andrew Dimetrou said this the Swans would win the flag with the very tactics he said would fail them. And this is now old news. Do us all a favour and go back the planet you have been living on.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 16, 2007 10:02 AM

But Coops - the point is that if the AFL president has zero respect for the Swans' gameplan - how can you expect the rest of us to be captiviated - as leader, he has set the example!

A bit like our Prime Minister's example in our treatment of asylum seekers. The lower orders within the relevant departments took to this example with such relish, that they managed to ship out Australian citizens! (albeit of a dubious skin pigmentation - in their humble opinion)

But on a brighter note - one of your very own alumni had a decent debut tonight - but you may have had zero inerest in that.

Readers of the SLOG may not keep an eye on what else is happening in the rest of the competition, so it pleases me to announce that the bullies have moved into equal 4th for the time being, effectively finishing off Freo's season in the process. Do I expect them to be there for long? - no. Do I expect to be there at the end of the season? - with Griff, Cross and Murph to miss much of the last 10 rounds, well, no. Could they be a bit of a bolter if they scrape in to the finals - yes.

Michael C - your mob was starting to win me over - I decide to tip them and look what happens!!

If the Swans defeat the Carringbush (should) and if Port defeat the Dons (45%), 4th to 10th is looking extraordinarily bunched up.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 11:12 PM

"ball! torpie, stab Jezaulenko you beauty"

Coincidentally, last night I stumbled on a replay of the last quarter of the 1970 grand final, which was shown immediately before the Bullies v Freo game.

I was in early primary school then so I have no actualy memory of the game (the first grand final I can recall is Hawthorn vs St Kilda the following year). I've seen replays before (in the days when they used to have all night re-runs on the eve of the VFL grand final), but I probably hadn't seen it for over 20 years.

Obviously there is now an abyss between 1970 and 2007 - the kicking, handballing and marking skills verge on laughable. Of course, this is a very famous game in the evolution of modern aussie rules when a former Swans coach implored his players to handball and play on at all costs (not that it is necessarily noticeable - it tells us what the game was like immediately before this one).

Given all that - the game was eminently watchable and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing it again (even if I do hate both teams). It was refreshing to watch players taking set shots at goal with a torp!

Despite the obvious gap in skills between then and now, if you were to ask me this morning, would you prefer to watch that last quarter again, or a quarter from the Swans' recent win at Manuka; I'd have to say: please give me that old, grainy black and white replay!! Please, please!!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 8:34 AM

But Coops - the point is that if the AFL president has zero respect for the Swans' gameplan - how can you expect the rest of us to be captiviated - as leader, he has set the example!

Posted by pippinu

If you choose to be swept along with the wave hysteria, thats your problem. The AFL presidents comments were irresponsible and threatened to damage the image of AFL in Sydney.

If you are so one eyed you can not see the other teams playing a similar style of ugly football - you really do have problems. The Adelaide Crows have been doing it since Neil Craig took over. In the same year he took over, Roos had the Swans playing a very fast free flowing game of football which was found out by Craig who introduced tempo footy to modern football.

From 2003 - 2005, The Sydney Swans were supposed finish with the wooden spoon.

Roos, Eade and Colless have all said until they are blue in the face, Sydney is the toughest football market to reach. It is too rugby league and union centric. Have a look where the AFL is placed in Sydney newspapers - even after the Swans made back to back grand finals.

And this has nothing to do with the playing style of the Swans.

Finishing last is not an option for Sydney. I have been down this road before and won't go down it again. Sydney, realistically can not finish last, and probably won't for some time. The Brisbane Lions are in a similar boat.

The Melbourne Storm have a similar dilemma in the NRL.

The only difference with Queensland is their supporters really get behind their team. The Lions and the Broncos are on equal footing. They are the only state willing to go out and watch Pura Cup cricket matches. And they never fail to virtually sell out a Broncos or Titans match.

AFL Commentators like Tim Lane and Robert Walls whose sentiments were equally as damaging to Sydney have since backed down. Although Tim Lane would not know how to call a game between non - Victorian teams. He is to busy trying to hide the big V jumper under his blazer for every match he calls.

The thing that Melbourne struggles to come to terms with is that Sydney won a flag in the face of very harsh and very unfair criticism.

And Sydney's flag was on the back of on an era dominated by another rugby league prone state with the Brisbane Lions. Victorians have been delirious since 2001 and have needed therapy ever since.

Infact since the AFL started in 1990, Collingwood, Hawthorn, North Melbourne (twice), Carlton and Essendon (twice) have won flags. The Crows have won two, The Eagles three, The Brisbane Lions three, and Port Adelaide and the Swans one each.

To go with that, there has only been four all Victorian Grand Finals. St Kilda, Geelong and Melbourne have been the only other Victorian clubs to make it to the last day in September.

It makes you wonder how long clubs like St Kilda, Western Bulldogs, Richmond, and Melbourne can hold on to long periods of no success. Carlton maybe a joke at the moment but they have a success surplus to bank on, Collingwood and Essendon are the richest clubs in Victoria.

Could we eventually be seeing the likes of Melbourne or St Kilda having to relocate in order to find success. Richmond look in dire trouble at the moment as well. Hawthorn look set to relocate to Tasmania in the distant future, but if they start winning flags - that may not happen for some time.

Now the thought the teams from WA are set to dominate for the next few years is getting even harder to swallow. And understandably so.

Geelong and Hawthorn are the current hopes for a Victorian flag. I was very impressed with the Hawks on Friday - they were awesome for a side considered ugly and boring. With Essendon and Collingwood an outside chance.

Geelong, their only problem is choking. They have a history of choking when they need to stand up tall. 1992 could not be a more perfect example of that. 1995 another - although Carlton were unstoppable that year.

The Bombers, The Kangaroos and the Magpies are too inconsistent at the moment to give them even a glimmer of hope at a flag.

For mine only Geelong and West Coast are genuine contenders for the flag at the moment. Hawthorn and Sydney will probably just make up the numbers in the finals this year.

Although I did say that Australia would not win the World Cup of Cricket ... maybe thats an omen.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 18, 2007 11:30 AM

agree, fri or sat nite they had the 69 GRannie on ABC 2 and it was a cracker. it's so nice to see 4 gus flying for a mark in the pack, and all of them with their hands in the air trying to mark it. also nice to see people pinged almost instantly when tackled. and some surreal ruck work from John Nicholls. I'd take that over the modern stuff any day. although I do love a tain slog, so found the bits of yesterday I saw sensational.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 18, 2007 11:57 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 11:12 PM

My Rooboys, began the year with zero expectations, and now, as suddenly there grew some expectation - well, let's just say that the young kids have tapered a little and desperately need a mid season break. It is, after all, not Rugby League where half the players run less than a couple of kilometres for the match.

I must say, the last couple of weeks the roos won 2 of 3 before the ADelaide game - but the signs where there that the 'edge' was gone - they were sloppy going inside 50 - and really were just bombing the ball but not to a valid marking target and making it impossible for the crumbers.

Can't compare any qtr of a GF with a regular season game for 4 pts at Manuka (always been devoid of atmosphere, and the actual atmospheric conditions seemed to dull the ball!!!).

Posted by: Michael C on June 18, 2007 1:18 PM

Port did end up coming through, so with a Swans victory, we'll have 4th to 10th all on 7 wins, which is quite amazing.

No one appears to be interested in the debut of one of your very own alumni, so I will quickly mention that Malcolm Lynch did very well indeed in the Darwin humidity (wearing Libba's old number). He picked up a disposal in every quarter (for 10), took 8 marks and created two goals. Even better he chased and harried, and got one free kick for his efforts when he nailed someone bigger than him (he's skin and bones like all good bulldog rookies). He carried the ball with confidence and even took a few bounces (our trademark).

This kid is a real footballer, he has a natural instinct for the game - he's going to be good.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 1:29 PM

This comp is all over the shop.

Hey Jano Gibbo Gibson.

Can you stick up the Sydney 25th Anniversary team so we can pick it to pieces?

Barass vs Pagan is interesting.

Barassi was a brilliant player and a revolutionary coach, with some very talented players, who willed his team(s) to succeed. He also lost a few and coached largely unsuccessfully until Swans revival 1995.

Pagan ( backpocket under Barassi in '74 GF), although blessed with Carey, developed many of his players through the Under 19s and subsequent shrewd recruiting. Success has been harder to come at Crazy corrupt Carlton. You'd almost feel sorry for him but for the dreaded Navy Blues.

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 18, 2007 1:29 PM

Yes, the mighty Swans can finish in the top 4 if the following occurs:
1. Paul Roos learns to quickly adjust to the modern game, and can shut his trap and coach properly
2. The pippinu character that sounds camp on this blog learns to get some manners and post less useless blogs.
3. BBB and Goodes regain their form and stamp their authority on the coming matches, starting with the blockbuster against Collingwood at TS.

Posted by: Jano on June 18, 2007 2:27 PM

" 2. The pippinu character that sounds camp on this blog learns to get some manners and post less useless blogs. "

1. Does that mean that some of my posts are useful?

2. Reading back the various posts, it appeared to be others that were hurling personal insults - I never did the same once.

3. I never would have thought that I could have such a big impact on the Swans' season!

4. I have to admit, but I'm not sure what it means to "sound camp".

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 3:29 PM

1. Paul Roos learns to quickly adjust to the modern game, and can shut his trap and coach properly

Posted by: Jano on June 18, 2007 2:27 PM

Roos did adjust to the modern game, he didn't invent temp footy, but he did perfect it, the problem is that now that tactic is stale and the swans need a new one.

I don't believe that any of the back-to-the-future approaches will work either, the player skill and fitness levels are so different that the old ways don't apply. You can harp on about the beauty of the game in the old days as long as you like folks. Someone needs to be creative a come up with a new style, and Roos is the kind of guy who can do that.

As for keeping his trap shut, I for one wish he didn't have to. Already we can see that the 2007 season will be remembered as season the afl board stuffed up with unwanted rule changes that led to the umpiring being the dominant influence, not the players efforts. Every week they stuff up another match for the fans. If it hasn't happened to your team yet, just wait, one week, coming soon, it will.

That every player and official is gagged from stating the obvious - that the news rules, and the umpires interpretation of them have ruined the season - becomes more ridiculous every week.

Posted by: Psi on June 18, 2007 4:45 PM

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 18, 2007 11:30 AM

Tim Lane hiding a Big V jumper, nah, it's just his Carlton jumper - and that's absorbed a few salty tears in recent years.

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 18, 2007 1:29 PM

and Pagan, the irony was that he seemingly left North to a. have a 2nd crack at Carlton where he got shafted as a player way, way back - and b. so that he wouldn't be faced with the economic 3rd world status of the Roos.

Turned out Blueland wasn't what it appeared.

The Roos certainly had the last real 'home grown' power team - that Pagan had developed in the U19s and then matured as senior coach. It is a wonderful story.

Carey was good. When Corey and Carey where 2 of the top 5 in the league - the Roos could break any game any time.

But, the intimidation factor - that the good teams have (eg WCE in the early 90s, Hawks in the 80s, Lions 2001-3 etc) - with guys like Arch, Kingy, Martyn, Carey and Pickett. There was always a bump, tackle, pack breaker coming from any direction.

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 1:29 PM

Good promotion to give the NT local a run in the Darwin game - and worked out rather well.

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 18, 2007 1:29 PM

On SEN they've been doing teams of 'forgettables', I was just wondering about the Swans 25 years team of forgettables??
I think to a couple of recycle players that ended up there in the early days: Darryl Sutton (although famously had a day out for NM vSK, from FB in 1st Qtr to FF and kick 9 for the rest of the game), Maurice Boyse and Craig Holden - all ex-NM. Sanford Wheeler, the American. Jayson Daniels - just 'don't kick it!!'.

Posted by: Michael C on June 18, 2007 4:51 PM

Coops, the Tiges have seen far worse days than this. Latent support is massive - perhaps the ultimate bandwagon club; the list is strengthening, with a big year sometime soon; and we will still make money this year. Worry about the coach, though...

Although I for one would support the Tassie Tigers.

Despite that, it's hard to gauge where broad Melb is at. Was just on a work call with melb people and there's a definite expectation and excitement about having some contenders this year. Unless it's Collingwood. But I think you overstate the hostility to the Lions and the Swans, Yes there was some unhappiness about seeming concessions, but most people I know though the Lions were incredible, and gave the Swans credit in 05 for their commitment, and their finals campaign.

But I still reckon Swan saturation is the enemy - ensures there's only feast and famine. Personally, would have loved to have seen Dog v Freo from Darwin, perhaps a glimpse of the future of AFL, but no coverage here.

I could segue to Jane Jacobs and her theories of over-specialisation and the death of Detroit, but I won't.

PS what a dodgy ad on 7! Hall (out of form) and Goodes (out of form) and Kirk (out of form) v Buckley (inj), Rocca (choker) and Clement (inj). what about Malceski v Thomas and Heath Shaw v O'Keefe? get with the times...

MC, comrade,
I didn't hear G. Healy's comments although I am pleased he has worked it out on how to be successful to kick in front of goal.

As you are aware, of the dreadful performance the Blues put in last weekend; I am studying tapes of where it is all going wrong.

However, this is going to take time for me to get my head around and make comment for Pagen to be able to act on at training.

I don't know about your lads. But I saw and heard two funny interviews from Lee Mathews and Ron Barrassi on current tactics and modern football.

I think you know of my admiration for Paul Roos and his philosophy of possession football.

Messrs LM and RB: they were mooting that the "Rules Committee" should do something to change the rules to prevent players playing at the back to wind down the clock or just play to keep possession.

I thought to myself at the time that these so called elite coaches have no idea. It is obvious isn't not.

The simple solution is to make your full forward to man mark the furtherest defender so the player with position has to go forward on a run or kick it forward.

There may be a time you have to send two up to man mark the loose defenders.

But I witnessed such a stupid play when a Lions player was running between two defenders who were playing basketball (as every one seems to call it) instead of man marking one player to isolate the man with the ball to force him to go forward with it.

So to conclude, it's not the rules that need to change but the coaches ability to learn to adapt and coach against such tactics.

I never took to the Swans but always had great admiration for Paul Roos and his philosophy in coaching.

I think we at the Navy Blue would love to seem him in charge of our team.

Note: did you watch the "Offsiders" last Sunday? It was the first time that all codes of football were equally given time and represented. It was great TV viewing, even if it is Melbourne Centric.

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 18, 2007 5:11 PM

KB

It is certainly worthwhile asking why oppositions don't take matters into their own hands when teams employ basketball crap (Sheedy's term, not mine). After watching my bullies do it a few time against Brisbane (of course, they had excellent reasons to do so!), with full back Brian Harris racking up 24 uncontested marks as he waxed it with Morris an co, and as we watched shots of LM looking glum - a thought occurred to me.

Perhaps occasionally, both sides, both sides, see basketball crap as a welcome respite, and they're not fussed as to who is doing it (so they let it run its course). Otherwise, you're right, the solution is quite obvious.

Michael C
Did you ever watch your roo boys play at unatmospheric Manuka? I've never told you before that for a few years I actually had a kangas membership! The only enjoyable part of watching games there was when Arch was playing on the flank where I was sitting ( as a forward or back) - that was always a lot of fun up close!

Otherwise I have wiped that period of my life from my memory banks.

______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 6:03 PM

the thing I hate about Offsiders is the Geelong bandwagon. Haigh and Whateley sheeet me, but I rate Harms - his "fan" pieces for the Age this year have been speccccccial.

it should be compulsory to have Caro on every week, and to ban Haigh from reading from his notes - make him go bare-back on the high horse (very good writer, though, some of his cricket work on Cricinfo is superb.)

PS Control - Ian Curtis flick. see it!

Posted by: peter warrington on June 18, 2007 10:15 PM

The AFL if it wanted to it could really blow the NRL out of the water.

If they advised the Kangaroos to move to Canberra. Melbourne to become Queenslands second team. The Western Bulldogs to become Sydney's second team. The Richmond Tigers to go to Darwin and Hawthorn to Tasmania.

Then we'd have a true national competition.

You could never get Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton to relocate because you would have definite riot. I mean the South Sydney protest march to get them back in to the NRL is a clue. As Souths pretty much are the Bombers or The Blues of the NRL.

Geelong would be the winners out of all the Victorian clubs because they are the only regional team in the comp.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 19, 2007 10:49 AM

Dear WP Cooper, some of you blokes realy should stop believing your own propganda, be it AFL, or mouthpieces like Smith The NRL was here when the AFL started it will be here when AFL in Sydney is gone,do you thing you would get 8 people to march if the Swans buggered off.
As for the Gold Coast I would not hold my breath

Posted by: John Ryan on June 19, 2007 11:54 AM

On SEN they've been doing teams of 'forgettables', I was just wondering about the Swans 25 years team of forgettables??
Maurice Boyse and Craig Holden - all ex-NM. Sanford Wheeler, the American. Jayson Daniels - just 'don't kick it!!'.

Posted by: Michael C on June 18, 2007 4:51 PM

You throw down a mean gauntlet Micky C. Cop this.

Steve(?)Taubert. My big brother once mistook him for Roger Merrett at Easts Rules club during a long inebriated conversation. Steve had a great sense of humour.

Team mates Warwick would have happily saddled up for. Brilliant and handy footballers who love, fate and Ian Curtis tore apart.

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 19, 2007 12:32 PM

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 19, 2007 12:32 PM

you now what - until you mentioned it, I had forgotten that Jimmy had spent a year with the Swans before moving across to the Bears in their inaugural year.

I have a feeling that both moves were not memorable.

Jimmy Edmond is probably best remembered for a game in 1984, where Footscray defeated Collingwood with a kick after the siren. Jimmy didn't kick it, oh no, Beasley marked the ball after Gubby Allen attempted to kick across goal in the days when that was a mortal sin. Even before Beaser steered it through (and it was hard to watch because the Pieman occasionally missed them from 25 metres), Jimmy was pointing to his head with a screwed up face saying something to Gubby, I don't, something like: you funky brickhead.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 3:09 PM

the thing I hate about Offsiders is the Geelong bandwagon. Haigh and Whateley sheeet me, but I rate Harms - his "fan" pieces for the Age this year have been speccccccial.
it should be compulsory to have Caro on every week, and to ban Haigh from reading from his notes - make him go bare-back on the high horse (very good writer, though, some of his cricket work on Cricinfo is superb.)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 18, 2007 10:15 PM

Peter, the thing I hate about the Offsiders is when Caro comes on to discuss the latest with what is happening in the world of Benny Dope-head Cousins.

Surely you would think by now she could leave him alone – who cares if she is in love with him; or she just wants to be there for him; or whatever.

It's just bloody boring to listen to her every time she fronts-up to discuss Benny Dope-head Cousins.

I think it's a total waste of precious TV time and would just like to hear more about team performances and where they are heading.

All in all Peter, it is a good mix of sporting issues AFL, Rugby codes, Soccer and Cricket. I only wish the horse racing could find somewhere else to go. A total waste of precious TV space IMHO.

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 19, 2007 4:28 PM

Firstly, it should be noted the AFL is more than twice the size of Rugby league, so to WP Cooper, you need to obtain some brains when you compare souths to the bommbers or blues.
The reason for the large, Souths, protest was due to the novalty and excitment created by the people and using people power, most had nothing better to do, so they marched the streets.
Why do South Sydney obtain poor average crowds of about 9000. Because they are not very poplular expecially when compared to any AFL clubs. Just look at clubs memberships as a guide to club popularity. The NRL clubs are not even close to the AfL level. And many AFL clubs have fans across the country and even in England.

Posted by: Jano on June 19, 2007 6:24 PM

SHE is the Jennifer Melfi of sport. But yes the drugs stuff is all a bit ho-hum to me.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 19, 2007 7:12 PM

pippinu, means idiot right? - you maintain that Demetriou has no respect for the Sydney Swans, thats interesting because he seemed very respectful of the Swans when he attended the 25th Anniversary dinner the other night and proposed the main toast. He praised everyone associated with the club and acknowledged what tough times they went through and that after neduring the roughests of roads they finally acheived success after years in the wilderness. He also praised the profile in sydney and what it hwas brought to the State and the AFL - so I really dopnt thin khe was there just for the canapes and the free grog.! So pippinu on behalf of most of us on a SWANS BLOG who find you tiresome would you just go and talk out of your arse elsewhere!

Posted by: Tooting Tingtong on June 20, 2007 7:39 AM

Firstly, it should be noted the AFL is more than twice the size of Rugby league, so to WP Cooper, you need to obtain some brains when you compare souths to the bommbers or blues.

Posted by: Jano

Thanks for the advice but my comparison is legitimate. You need to remember NSW is the land of rugby league and new converts to the AFL via the Swans would not be as familiar with Collingwood or Essendon and the history of the Australian code, compared to the traditional rugby league teams.

My comparison is based on history not current times. This is a fact. Teams like Souths, Wests, Balmain, Norths and Easts, were all founding clubs with a rich history in Sydney, like the AFL Melbourne clubs.

Are you saying there were no genuine people marching at the protest for Souths. This march was against greedy commercial and media groups trying to run a code of football and telling people their team can not play in the national competition. Collingwood fans would not hear of it, so why should Souths fans?

Unfortunately, their fans do not show their support for their teams very well. Surely the NRL must get embarrassed when traditional rivals play against each other in front of an empty stadium.

Actually the Melbourne Demons have similar dilemma - no one watches them unless they are playing Collingwood.

To me Rugby League is a boofheaded sport and it has been going down the crapper since Super League went through it. The only thing that has any merit anymore is the State of Origin but even that is not what it used to be. The game just has no integrity.

Although Brendan Fevola has got to be the Willy Mason of the AFL

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 20, 2007 10:58 AM

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 19, 2007 4:28 PM

Too many people going on about the peripherals and not enough about what actually happens on the ground.

Totally agree MR.KB - and that's the most annoying thing about the 'negative' and 'nit-picking' saturation coverage we get down here.

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 11:19 AM

Speaking of finishing in the top 4, today in SMH's sister paper there is an interesting opinion piece about a proposal to make points-for more important than percentage.

I like the idea. We all want to get away from the mega-flood and basketball crap, but equally we don't want to introduce new rules and new line markings (although I am certain that over time we will be able to utilise the present 50 metre mark, or the 41.5 metre mark in the case of the SCG).

So the idea is that if primacy is given to points scored over percentage, teams will feel more inclined to play attacking football, and we will get around the current farcical situation where a team like the Swans can have 56% of possession, and yet outscore its opponents by barely a kick.

An anomaly that exists in the use of percentage to separate teams equal on wins is that if, say, the Swans defeat Hawthorn 54 to 46, that's worth 117.4%. But if my goal-hungry bullies defeat Brissie 149 to 127, that's only worth 117.3%.

Now let's all be honest, what would you rather see? The Swans scrounge a win by a kick, while they clog up the game, provide us with the spectacle of one ball-up after another, enter their forward 50 a dozen times in a whole game and then once they get a few points up, hold onto it deep in defence for what seems like hours? Or would you rather see the ultra sleek, ultra clean, ultra skilled, ultra quick bullies taking the ball coast to coast as they play to actually outscore the opposition?

I rest my case.

So if we actually had a rule where teams equal on wins were separated on points for, the bullies would actually rise from 8th to 4th! Now that sounds like some sort of rule!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 1:23 PM

Ahhhh, back at last. BOY have I been well behaved keeping my mouth shut for the entirety of this topic. All I will say is that I don't think the Swans will make the top 4, because three of those spots look settled - even though you beat the Hawks, I think they are the real deal. The other two spots, assuming my boys don't see how high up the ladder they are and $hit themselves. Aside from that, I think the pies may fill out the other spot, and if they miss, it is a scrap between you and the Dogs.

Next weekend will tell me a) whether the Cats are favourites. I think that hammering West Coast, winning two games at our graveyard AAMI, and knocking off the Swans would entitle us to favouritism. And yeah, a 60-point drubbing would be great to be honest... b) whether the Swans are a chance of doing anything at all.

But for now, I will just take the opportunity to gloat and say that for another 9 days at least, my team is the standout in the comp and if the country falls apart right now, we should be crowned 2007 premiers and save the pain of losing another GF.

That is all.

Posted by: Sam on June 20, 2007 3:44 PM

Pippinu, if it's a choice between a no shoot and a no tackle shootout, I'll take neither, thanks. I find the Bullies to be a team of fast runners, some of who can kick the ball pretty well. Not much tackling, contested marking, shepherding etc going on in Bully land.

Changing to the points for system has just as many problems - like that example I talked before in 1996, when the Tiggies were lucky enough to play the Royboys twice - and won by 150 and 65. Other temas didn't play them twice. Then there's the advantage of it rarely raining in Perth; the potential for perfect conditions at Colonial etc etc

I much prefer the Spanish Liga system - Real are champs this year with the same points and a 15-goal worse differential than Barca - becaus ethey beat them during the season. Nice.

can't happen here while 16 teams play 22 matches.

now that's real reform, Demetriou.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 20, 2007 11:04 PM

Actually, Pippinu, as I said before, I'd just like to see nail-biters, and the Swans have been delivering them in spades in recent years. If I want grace and flair I go to the Australian Ballet. (tip- Oz Ballet's BodyTorque - great show. Highly recommended)

Posted by: rory on June 20, 2007 11:50 PM

All this rubbish with defensive possesion footy is such a bore.

If the opposition doesn't have the ball then they can't score and if they man up then the team with the ball can't play defensive keepy off.

When I played footy as a kid my coach used to repeat the mantra of "man up".

Don't change the rules to stop defensive footy just man up, stupid.

Swans will finish top 4 and should only be satisfied if they don't lose more than two games from now till finals.

Posted by: tully on June 21, 2007 11:34 AM

BACK TO THE TOPIC (no I'm not gonna crap on like pippinu in a 20000 word essay). Yes I think the swans are definitely in with a chance for 07. I don't think Hall and Goodes can go on like this for much longer- they're bound to find form soon.
As for all this talk about swans playing ugly football with stoppages etc - would you please SHUT UP!! You're really irritating me. You can go on about it all day but you can't face the reality that swans often play a fast, fluid game as well. But of course, grumpy old ignorant men like pippinu will never admit it because their egos are stuck in 'the old days' and have some sort of prejudice against sydney being an AFL town . I feel embarrassed for them.

Posted by: worm on June 21, 2007 11:44 AM

OK, I knew my comment regarding the AFL blowing the NRL out of the water would attract the boofheads. In case you missed it, read it for yourselves.

" Dear WP Cooper, some of you blokes realy should stop believing your own propganda, be it AFL, or mouthpieces like Smith The NRL was here when the AFL started it will be here when AFL in Sydney is gone,do you thing you would get 8 people to march if the Swans buggered off.
As for the Gold Coast I would not hold my breath."

Posted by: John Ryan

Mr Ryan, your history is a bit poor and your grasp of reality is a little week. Australian Rules Football was played in Sydney long before the rugby league started in 1908. In fact Aussie Rules threatened to run through union in NSW like it Victoria.

Brisbane And Sydney maybe Rugby League and Union territory, but both of these codes are in farcical mess at the moment and the AFL is getting bigger and better.

Whether you like it or not, the triple flags to the Lions and the flag to the Swans has seen to it the AFL will be staying in NSW and Queensland for quite sometime. I believe both Lions and the Swans have more flags in them yet, and the more succees these two clubs the more it will assure the presence of the AFL stays in Sydney and Brisbane for quite sometime. Swans players Lewis Roberts Thomson, Leo Barry and Paul Bevan (who has a league background) are all Sydney siders. And ironically, Garry Jack's son is a Swan!

Also you underestimate the AFL's territory in NSW, go South and Sout West of Canberra and you will see what I mean. Wayne Carey and Paul Kelly are Wagga Wagga boys.

However I can't say the same for the NRL's Melbourne Storm or even the NZ Warriors who have struggled from day one and are lucky to still be in the comp.

The Storm will eventually move from Victoria because there is no grass rugby league in Victoria, unlike the AFL in Brisbane and in Sydney.

Do a bit of research and you will find that there has been quite a few AFL players come from NSW. Including some of the best players ever seen. John Longmire who is the Swans assistant coach and Roos likely replacement, is a NSW boy, and one of the best forwards North Melbourne ever had. And NSW in 1990 defeated Victoria in a State of Origin game at the SCG. Victoria had Ablett, Dunstall, Lockett, Brereton - basically all of their big guns playing, and John Longmire inspired the NSW boys to a win with an 8 goal haul.

You are right about the NRL, its here forever, but at the moment it is the joke of Australian sport - just behind Leyton Hewitt.

Gee whiz, I continue to attract more than my fair share of objurgation and personal abuse - and I am truly wondering whether this is fair.

Peter W - yes - I like the La Liga system (although many do not).

Worm - I believe you displayed far more prejudice than I in your succinct diatribe.

Coops - yes - I recall writing in the SLOG about 9 months ago, that if one were to wander to Trumper Park and have a look at the top of the dressing sheds (if the orginal ones are still there, don't know) - you can read East Sydney Football Club, est. 1889 (or something similar, can't remember the exact year - but it was a long time ago!)

James - you are misinformed - although in truth, if I were to divulgate the team I follow it would most surely elicit the same violent reaction.

My mate's Jonesey and Eddie are very "in" to the early Sydney history, especially with regards to Newtown, who were a footy power long before League ever reared its cauliflower head. We resurrected the Newtown Bloods as a pub team in the late 90s and early this century, but injuries were too many. Pity.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 21, 2007 9:21 PM

If Sydney defeat the Pies this weekend, they'll be 4th on percentage, and it's likely that they will at least hold that spot till the end of the year.

Watching league teams tonight on Fox, Tony Shaw made a very pertinent observation when he answered the question: are the Swans playing badly?

Sagely he said something like: the style the Swans play is such that its very best looks frighteningly similar to its very worst in outward appearance. So who really knows how well the Swans are playing? (I'm fair dinkum, and, well, it's hard to argue with)

Good luck to the Swans this weekend, I hope they get a big crowd who cheer on a Pies defeat. Both Michael C and I will be keen to post the crowd up on the FLOG - so make it a good one!

My dear Swansters, no matter how many horrible and nasty comments you might receive here from evil interlopers such as myself, please take some solace from the knowledge that we'll always hate the Carringbush even more!
_______
pippinu

So what - no other team aside from St Kilda, Freo and the Dogs have won as few as or less premierships than Sydney/SMFC in the last 80 years..

WP Cooper, I'm not renewing hostilities here, but just to point out - your post about AFL being in NSW before League is redundant. I'm sure when old mate said League was here before AFL and will be when it leaves, he was talking in practicality, not in actuality. So what if a game was played here 100 years ago - the USA and Canada played the first International cricket match but cricket lays no claim to being a more inherent sport in North America than sports that came long afterwards.

You knew what he meant - and he was right - AFL had no meaningful presence in NSW until recently, and regardless of miscellaneous matches played here, history won't change the fact that for 90 years, there was only two codes in NSW - league and union.

Posted by: Sam on June 22, 2007 10:27 AM

A fellow called SEN last night via listening on the net. He's up at Inverell. They have no worries getting the 18 together each week for the footy team, but can't get the number for the League team.

That's up b/w Grafton and Moree.

That I found particularly interesting.

Very interesting to see what people do when presented a clear choice.

Posted by: Michael C on June 22, 2007 12:19 PM

Very interesting to see what people do when presented a clear choice.

Posted by: Michael C on June 22, 2007 12:19 PM

Oh seriously wake up mate. Enough of the "mine is bigger than yours" rubbish - you sound like me with my constant anti-Swans style banter. "When presented with a clear choice?" What the hell is that supposed to mean? There are 200 senior rugby league players in Bathurst who have a clear choice but haven't joined the 50-strong AFL club - which has been around for donkeys years incidentally and never drawn raging hot figures - and is a composite of two clubs.

Add to that about 500 junior footballers (that's a guess but the senior figure is pretty accurate) and you have yourself a dominant sport.

Why the heck can't people just neck up and accept other sports - I hate rugby to the point where I'm even going for NZ in the World Cup but I still respect the right of people to enjoy it, and don't pluck a figure from a random location to point to it's looming extinction.

So League players are dumb - big deal - the entire Collingwood fraternity has the combined IQ of a chickpea but who's complaining. So league players aren't as fit - wow, throw Scott West or any other marathon man from the AFL and see if they could handle 3 100+ kg forwards trying exclusively to hurt you as much as they can using nothing but shoulders.

My game/your game is a waste of bloody time. It would really be a whole lot easier if everyone just watched all sports full stop.

Posted by: Sam on June 22, 2007 1:26 PM

Michael C

I was staying in Sawtell, about 12 kms south of Coffs, around 17 years ago. I recall at the time that they had a 5 team comp. It would be really interesting to know how it is going now.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 2:01 PM

WP Cooper, I'm not renewing hostilities here, but just to point out - your post about AFL being in NSW before League is redundant.

Posted by Sam.

Welcome back Sam. I agree with you regards to your top 4 predictions, although I think the Dogs are a little too inconsistent to be a genuine top 4 contender, and so are Sydney. But the premiership is wide open at the moment. I am tipping either another Geelong v West Coast shindig or Hawthorn v Geelong rematch for the GF.

But incidently how many flags have Geelong won?

Before you bag other clubs, look at your own. Geelong sit along side Collingwood as the biggest chokers of all time. They only played in 4 grand finals in 6 years, and how many flags came from those - zero. Not even God, as in Gary Ablett, could stop the choking curse.

No I don't think my comments are redundant at all, but yes you maybe right about the 90 years of union and league rule in NSW - but I think you are overstating the presence of these two codes in NSW period.

Its a bit like saying well Aussie Rules dominates Victoria and it has for a hundred and fifty plus years but denying that both rugby codes have never been played there when they have. Or that they have had a long presence in the state. That was the point I was making. But if you want to big note yourself at my expense, go a head.

I grew up in rural NSW and I was well aware of the presence Aussie Rules had in the state. The ACT has had a competition that use to be on par with the VFL at one stage with the ACTAFL - Prime T.V used to show the Grand Final. So to deny it ever had presence in NSW is just ignorant of fact. And the Swans presence in NSW has brought the code out the rugby covered darkness it was in - and thank God for that!

Having said that, I have been an Aussie Rules fan all my life. I was once a bipartisan football code man and supported Manly in the rugby league, but the super league really damaged my interest in the game and the after math of it has been dreadful for the NRL.

First they get rid of traditional clubs in a very cruel way, then they bring back clubs like the Gold Coast instead of perhaps giving the North Sydney Bears another shot via the Central Coast, and now players can swap sides willy nilly and clubs can steal players whenever they like and the salary cap robs the weaker clubs of a chance of getting back on their feet.

While league is slowly getting my interest back with Manly doing well, it will take more than that to win me back totally. The State of Origin is boring and the premiership has no real passion in it to sustain my interest.

Every match in the AFL is played like it is a war. League the players turn up because its their job - you see it on their faces. Its money and nothing else.

I suppose I will just have to let you win on this one because you will only come back with a smart arsey reply, call me an idiot, and be completely dismissive of what I have just said.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 22, 2007 2:09 PM

On NSW AFL following.

In the footy mad Riverina in the '70s everyone it seemed followed Richmond, Carlton and Essendon. I picked North because they were largely unloved and the ultimate premiershipless underdog.

Interestingly while many have now Sydney as their second team, other longtime NSW VFL followers display a pathological hatred toward them far outstripping the old woodies.

Never really got into the antiCollingwood business, probably due to the fact they'd done no damage to North and had an uncanny knack of losing GFs.

Now Hawthorn, there was a team to hate and Richmond, Carlton and Essendon. Annoyingly successful.

Looking forward to Sat nights game. Sydney will prob carve up if woodies go in with a short and/or inexperienced defence as well as having a lesser ruck division.

I've fathered a staunch Collingwood supporter, the only one at her school who doesn't go for the swans, so I'm not going to spoil her fun.

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 22, 2007 2:37 PM

My mate's Jonesey and Eddie are very "in" to the early Sydney history, especially with regards to Newtown, who were a footy power long before League ever reared its cauliflower head. We resurrected the Newtown Bloods as a pub team in the late 90s and early this century, but injuries were too many. Pity.
Posted by: peter warrington on June 21, 2007 9:21 PM

Yes Peter, I do remember Newtown Aussie Rules FC and what a power house they were in their domestic Sydney competition hay-day.

Can you please have your mate "Jonesey" to post up what did happen to that club in the end?

I was in a discussion with Michael C about relocation of Melbourne clubs vs new Franchises.

As my memory serves me Newtown FC eventually amalgamated with East Sydney FC as both were tenants at Trumper Park which leads me to acknowledge Pippinu's post of seeing a sign relating to the fact of a club established there in the 1800s.

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 22, 2007 3:04 PM

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 22, 2007 3:04 PM

I too recalled that conversation. Trumper Park is ironic given he was a key early supporter who then turned to the dark side chasing English coin on the back of Rugby. Ah, but for a twist of fate...hmm, but then Sydney might claim it for themselves...

Posted by: Sam on June 22, 2007 1:26 PM

You misunderstand.

I grew up in regional Vic near a town with a RAAF base - thus plenty of QLD fellows especially. There was a strong Rugby presence out of the RAAF base. They had footy teams too, cricket etc.

The region wasn't entirely buried in historical single code dominance. And - to that end, it really WAS interesting to see what people do when they have a clear choice.

My main thought is that here and there some people might just go for something different. For a change. Some people may get sick of the existing 'hierarchy' via the 'major' sports, and are able to establish their own 'identity' in an alternate code/team whatever.

And this is actually part of the approach of Aust Rules expanding in England and Scotland as examples. It's a means of engaging kids that otherwise might drop away from organised sports entirely.

So - I wasn't really looking at code vs code in the sense you thought.

btw - Scott West would bulk up a bit - many AFL players have actually had to try to lose 5 kgs in recent years due the increased pace. West might then also wear those little shoulder pads they do. And then he'd be like a Langer, or Lockyer or Johns or whomever and play his role. Sports people adapt to the game/roles they play.

Last comment about watching all sports - get's hard - on the Flog some single sports elitists are anti anyone who isn't 185% dedicated to all forms, locations and competitions of soccer 24/7/365.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 22, 2007 2:09 PM

I figure there's a fundamental difference between 'privately owned franchise clubs/entities' vs member owned football clubs. In a lot of cases, thats NRL vs AFL. Throw in the A-League on the corporate franchise front.

However,

pre the 80's and 'national comp's', there was no stepping on toes. So, people probably had less of an issue about supporting their NSWRL club AND a VFL club. But - then something happened to make it code vs code.

Oh - that and less sports in govt schools. Without St.Kevins in Melb there'd effectively be no 'junior' RL in Melb, and 75% of the 'emerging states' squad would not be available for selection. I wonder what other schools in WA and SA have a RL team?

Posted by: Michael C on June 22, 2007 3:51 PM

Koala Bear & Pippinu

I had the honour of running around to little noticable effect for the East Sydney Bulldogs in the 80s ( 1980s that is ) in the Under 19s and seconds.

I Think Newtown were gone by 1986/87?.
Easts are now combined with UNSW hence UNSW-ES.

We played in the old Footscray guernsey that Ted Whitten cherished.

Former players at the same time were MARK EVANS from AC/DC and MICK COCKS from ROSE TATTOO.

PAUL KELLY the balladeer also turned up later my sources tell me.

The teams were populated by rural refugees, interstaters and the odd 194cm yuppy local. Lot of hard nuts and hard drinkers.

The team song was to the tune of "BY THE SEASIDE".

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 22, 2007 4:41 PM

KB (#29), will do, when I get email back.

Coops, I think the Geelong choke is a bit overstated. They lost in 89 with an inexperienced mob to possibly the best team of all time. In 92 they lost to the battle hardened team that might have won the year before. In 1994 they fell into the GF because luck favoured them, and met the Eagles who dominated everyone that year. In 1995 they were 2nd but only half a game ahead of the Tiges, and a full 4 wins behind the Blues' powerhouse.

So in no year were they the fave heading into the finals or the GF. OK they didn't put up much of yelp, but grand final blowouts are pretty comon - one team's season's over after 45 mins.

I think the PIes 77,79 and 81 efforts are well ahead - could have won all 3 games, were faves etc etc.

like i've said, I reckon 97 was the one that got away from the Cats(was maybe pinched away.) I would have expected them to make a GF in 04 or 05, possibly both.

I doubt they;ll win it this year, but someone has to, and I don't think there's a super team out there.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 22, 2007 6:18 PM

I made a one-game comeback for UNSW-ES end 2005, and they were still wearing the Doggies' uniform. I now have an undersize pair of white shorts (used once) and Bulldog socks. the things you do for alumni. was my first and last blood rule - 188cm and 100kg going off for a graze on the knee. nice way to end a career.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 22, 2007 7:00 PM

Posted by: Pope Paul VII on June 22, 2007 4:41 PM

PP VII,
Many thanks for the information.
It was always in my opinion that we should have had an origninal AFL team born out of NSW and not a relocated VFL team to represent us at the AFL level.

But, in saying that the Swans have served NSW well. I only wish it would change its colours to NSW Blue or at least have introduced the colour blue somewhere.

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 23, 2007 9:37 AM

Why the heck can't people just neck up and accept other sports - I hate rugby to the point where I'm even going for NZ in the World Cup but I still respect the right of people to enjoy it, and don't pluck a figure from a random location to point to it's looming extinction.

Posted by Sam

That was the point I was making to Mr Ryan. And all ws doing was defending the sport and code of football I choose to follow and standing up to a one eyed moron who was completely ignorant of fact.

I personally have nothing against the game of rugby league. I am against the bureaucrats who have stuffed the game up - starting with Mr Rupert Murdoch down to Mr Gallop who is continuing to allow top line Australian league players to go to England because he won't swallow his pride and adopt a draft and trade system.

The amount of players that have gone over to England have been enough to bring back the North Sydney Bears and the Western Reds, and to split the West Tigers merger - its ridiculous.

Growing up in a country town besotted with league, it was a damn fun game to play as a kid. Although being a Manly supporter in Goulburn where the Canberra Raiders are gods, was not easy. But it was even harder being an Aussie Rules supporter.

I was lucky because I grew up with mates who were sport mad, so we played everything on our retrospective front lawns.

I can remember arguing over who was going to be Dermott Brereton, Peter Sterling, Allan Border and whoever else in whatever sport we chose to play ... those were the days! LOL My choices were always easy as I would pick Dean Jones, Michael O'Conner and Warwick Capper. (how sad is that! But he was a good footballer when he was actually a footballer)Although sometimes I'd be Gary Lyon or Steven Kernan or Mil Hanna, just for some one different. And no I don't need a luny bin - yet!LOL

We all followed Ainslie in the ACTAFL because they use to be the team that always played in the grand final.

AFL was mostly hated in Goulburn and called ariel ping pong and the pansies game because the players wore tight shorts. And this hatred was even worse in Sydney until all the bandwagon fans hopped on the "One Tony Lockett" bus and are now instant experts on the game.

But for me, I am an AFL fan first and foremost.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 23, 2007 11:47 AM

Thanks James. Keep it up for another 10 weeks and we might even sneak into the 8 : )

PS hope the Swans can kick 12 goals by halftime this week, but I won't die waiting for it.

and where's Dean - Richo's yours if you want him. only he could have turned what should have been an easy 8 goal haul into about 3.6 and 4 frees against, including a 50 that led to a goal. muppet. North Tasmanian - says it all. (Yet he still got named in the best 6. a joke.)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 23, 2007 1:53 PM

Wow - I now see that Tony Shaw was really onto something! And Roos reckons the modern day footy commentators don't know what they're talking about!

6 months since he first really kicked a Sherrin. Less than 20 career games of any level of Aust Footy.

I gather he can kick a soccer/gaelic ball to himself at least a 100 times, but apparently can do a Sherrin about 50 times.

Hmmm - now there's an interesting angle on 'true skill', or is it 'wasted party trick skill' or .....

...anyway - he certainly looks one to watch. And a good advertisement for some good players being good at whatever they turn their hands to.

Posted by: Michael C on June 25, 2007 10:21 AM

WP Cooper - I was not denying what you said was true, just that, while AFL is followed in the Northern States more than League is in the southern, examples of the game being played here before other sports doesn't really add up to much in the overall scheme of things. It is a throwaway fact that doesn't have a lot of consequence.

As for the chokes, and me bagging other clubs - purely a case of inter-team banter. My team could turn into cannibals and Id still try to turn it into a sleight on another team.

As for the footy, well this week's "Slog Grudge Match" looms as a very important match for you lot all of a sudden. 6-7 would leave you with not a lot of hope of a top 4 finish, and leaves you needing to significantly improve to simply make the 8. On the other side of the coin, the Cats have no tangible motivation for this game - the Eagle's loss means that barring a 100-point thrashing this week, we are guarenteed of top spot for another week at least. By the same token, having won two trips to Adelaide, knocked off the Eagles and Freo, and dealt harshly with every other team we've played in the last 7 rounds, Sydney are the only high profile club who we need to measure ourselves against, which provides a huge incentive to win. Should be a very tought game - if we can play our style, we'll canter, if we get drawn into a slugfest, we might struggle. Should be a very interesting month of football as we have the Pies, Dons and Freo at Subi all in the next 4 or 5 weeks.

Posted by: Sam on June 25, 2007 10:23 AM

Admittedly, I am growing impatient with the Swans poor showings. Perhaps the success of the past two years have caught up with the Swans - which happens.

I believe there will be a bit of a clean out come draft and trade time. Even if the Swans make the top 4 and another Grand Final, which I believe both is now looking very very grim.

Although no one can realistically expect the Swans to do it year in, year out - you only do that if you follow Collingwood, Carlton or Essendon.

However you at least expect better from a side that has made the last two grand finals and with the players they have. I'd rather us miss the GF through play well - like in 2003 - then make the finals when haven't deserved to be there.

As I have said, you can't blame th Swans style of play because the West Coast play the same sort of game - only with flare.

One thing that has been bothering me with the Swans, ever since we off loaded Shannon Grant to the Shin boners and Paul Kelly retired, is the midfield. It really needs an injection of flare and speed. Kirk might liken the Swans midfield to Cortina's - but they at least need one or two players with flare to liven things up.

I have no problems with defensive strategies of the Swans but they need the flare to compliment it - kind of like West Coast.

Goodes is the Swans best player and has that natural flare but he can't do it on his own. And when he is out of form, he stands out like dogs balls because the team is reliant on him to fire week in week out. People always talk about Chris Judd but he has the luxury of Daniel Kerr, Braun and Selwood who can cover for him if he has a quiet game - which is rarely ever.

Actually the Swans could experiment with putting Kennelly in the midfield and give a young tall defender a chance.

Barry Hall is woeful and is looking like a dud player - come on Barry get mad, get tough, or get out.

The discipline in the Swans has been poor as well. Some will squeal over the tactics and that the Swans are not adapting to modern football - of course Tony Shaw would say that and pippinu is on the bandwagon again.

Collingwood supporters pump themselves up with so much love and lust for their team its hard for them to hide their true colours. And as soon as they win their team is suddenly the master of Australian Rules Football - give me a break! I haven't heard any one more full of themselves then Tony Shaw.

Paul Roos is a smart coach. You don't get a record with the team he has by being a shit one. He knows he needs to get the midfield re - oiled. The grunt is going and the engine needs re - tunig - they only real way of doing that is by off loading players and getting newer and better quality players.

Perhaps Swans supporters might have to swallow missing the finals this year so we can get the better draft picks. I know it won't kill me if this happens.

Its embarrassing having the best ruck combination in the league but not having the midfield with the skills to compliment it.

Expect Crouch to finish up this season. Ben Mathews could also be in the firing line. And I am no convinced about Malceski.

I tip Geelong will belt us next week by at least 50 points, going by Saturday nights showing. Even Carlton will beat us if we play like that against them - Fevola will kick 10 if they do.

My bet for the Brownlow is for Gary Ablett Jnr. But Judd is too irresistable at the moment to say Ablett is a certain - but he is looking good.

Pippinu, No, I didn't play for the Goulburn Hawks, I trained with them though. I grew up with the grandson of the then club president. There was no junior footy comp's in Goulburn back then, and I don't think there is now. You had to go to Canberra to play junior footy - unfortunately. And by the time I was old enough to play seniors I had moved to the Gong and taken up with the local underground music scene.

Maybe that explains my bitterness towards rugby league!

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 25, 2007 10:42 AM

I think that somewhere along the line Peter W has intimated that this year could be as open as 1997 - and after the weekend's results - where the grand finalists from the last two years both lost unexpectedly at home - it's starting to look that way.

What happened in 1997? I think the final 8 looked like this at the end of the year (from memory):

But that's not all. After 8 rounds, Collingwood was on top with 6 wins and 2 losses! But then they failed to win a match in June and July for the next 4 years!
While Collingwood won't be as bad as that this year, I am still expecting them to be one of the teams that drop out by year's end.

Kangaroos, Essendon and maybe even St Kilda will be vying for those bottom two spots. Hawthorn look good enough to hold onto 2nd till the end of the year, and I reckon 3rd to 6th will look identical to 1997, but the big difference being that it will be a different finals system. I see both 1st and 2nd losing in the first week of the finals.

However, even if Geelong and Hawthorn finish first and 2nd, they will not win the premiership, indeed, I'd be surprised if even one of them make it to the actual grand final. The winner will come from 3rd to 6th, mainly because I expect a few of them to be peaking as we enter finals - and for Geelong and Hawthorn to be doing the opposite.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 25, 2007 10:57 AM

Pip, I like your analysis/predictions. for mine, Crow-Pie GF. or sts v eagles. or swan v cat. i.e. i have no idea.

but Saints were top in 97.

more evenness in that year in that any of Lions, Port, Blues could have had 8th on the last day (Tigers came from down at 3/4 time to knock the Blues off, ha ha). And that Doggies only just missed the GF (although if you watch the game again they were gone by 3/4 time, Crows just took their time to kill them.) and 7 beat 2 in the first week of the finals.

Coops, did you ever go to Sunami back in 96-7? on Crown St. PS Port Kembla rocks.

As for the Swans, it sounds like the drafting etc has gone awry - they put all their effort into a big ruck coup, but didn't anticipate the inevitable midfield fatigue. I bet they'd swap Spida for any of Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell etc right now. They could have bundled up 2nd and 3rd round picks for a decent young midfielder. I also think they've over-achieved relative to the skills levels, and that's evening out, especially as coaches work out how to beat them. (it;s also the downside of low injuries - not many of the young Swans midfielders get a go because Kirk and Bolton are made of steel.)

The Lions made us believe that longevity was possible - it was fluke. Swans 3rd in 2003 and 1st in 2005, 2nd in 2006 and then decline reads fairly similarly to Bombers' 3rd in 99, first in 2000, 2nd in 2001 and decline. and I think the Bombers had better players and arguably a better coach.

In the meantime, agree to Tagdh in the middle. Play Hall on-ball for a week or two - I'd hate to man up on him. Davis in the midfield. Put C Bolton at chf. you're on a hiding to nothing at the Cattery, so go down swinging.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 25, 2007 2:34 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 25, 2007 10:57 AM

Coll aren't that bad - compare their goal kicking potential of T.Cloke (if ever he gets on target), A.Rocca, A.Didak, D.Thomas (apparently now found the target) compared to the top Roos goal kicking targets of S.Grant, C.Jones and ....daylight (although if L.Thomas had kicked straight).

I'm not expecting miracles this year from my Roo boys.
But next year, with N.Thompson back on deck, and L.Harding getting a half season into him - then the contest just to make the starting forward six might give us something.

Posted by: Michael C on June 25, 2007 3:53 PM

PW - No I didn't go to Sunami, I was still only a new kid in town doing my HSC back then. But I am a regular at the Oxford Tavern. I have seen some salivating rock and roll shows there. And of course the Bulli Heritage Hotel.

I hope your tongue was in cheek when you were saying Port Kembla rocks! LOL

I am not looking forward to the Cats game. We haven't won at the Catery since Lockett took a big bag against them in 99. Its usually a house of pain for any Swans supporter. The only two wins we have had therem that I can remember, has been via a Lockett inspired win.

I rather watch them play at Subiaco then at Kardinia Park. Actually, I think Subiaco suits the Swans more than SCG. The only two sides who play better on that ground are the Dockers and the Eagles.

Yes I am a bit concerned about the midfield. I think getting Everitt was a good move, however, I don't think Roos anticipated such a quick drop off in form and in discipline. Everitt's presence has given Roos somthing to work with.

Hall would benefit a run in the midfield, I agree. He has the skill and the fitness to do it. He probably needs a chance to get a bit rough.

But I expect to see some experimenting this year. Even if the Swans make the finals they will probably fall on the first week, so look out for Goodes to go to full forward. He is star full forward ready to go ... he is the height and the strength of a Lockett, but much more athletic.

With the modern full forward role, he would frustrate the living daylights out of Scarlett and other defenders.

Another beef I have with Swans is, how on earth they missed out on getting local produce boys such as Justin Koschitzke and Lenny Hayes? That has baffled me for such a long time.

The Swans will recover, but they may need a time in the dolrums to get to where they once were, and may be they might get even better. The Eagles had some horror seasons when Malthouse left for Collingwood, but they recovered in grand style. There is no reason why the Swans can not do the same.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 26, 2007 10:48 AM

tongue not in cheek but definitely the family pride speaking. go look at that first Premiership side for Port and see all those Warringtons. my mum and dad both from there but headed to Tassie for opportunity in the late 50s - tells you how depressed Port must have been! Soft Fruit is a great film about the town (in fact, with Mullet and that old Karvan piece from Bermagui in the 80s there could be a fancy little triple at the Woonona Drive In.)

look out for my mate Brozza at the Heritage, he has a pointy chin and bowls left arm like Bedi, hence the Bish nickname. big fan of local product, but goes way back to Trilobites etc.

Sunami was tops, a guy I worked with at the Wilderness Society set it up with his missus. Think they went bust quickly (fire safety as usual, I think) but good on them for having a crack. They brought Billy Baxter and the Hollowmen, and the seminal Hurdy Gurdy, to Wollongong, for god's sake. We formed a 2-car convoy down the F6 to check it out.

There was also that Pulse news rag at the same time - like a local Drum Media. I wrote a few sports articles for them. I remember a deleriously hot night in late 1996 struggling over a piece advocating a Super League approach to band venue reinvigoration. You had to be there.

you ever get Bridezilla down there? I only know the song that FBI had on rotation a few months ago, but it's magic. They're high school kids from Newtown and sound like PJ Harvey fronting the Laughing Clowns i.e. the greatest band in the world.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 26, 2007 10:17 PM

We have had Bridezilla down here. I haven't caught them but I have seen them on the bill. I will be sure to check them out, I am big fan of PJ harvey and of girl rockers period. The Oxford and the Heritage, and now Waves, gets the good acts down here. Tumbleweed's success really opened up the scene here in Wollongong.

Its always been very vibrant but it really came alive in the 90's. It was slowing down for a bit but Hytest and the Watt Riot have brought it to life again.

I tell you though, I am spewing I missed the Go Betweens show at the Heritage a couple of years ago ... just before Grant McLennan passed away. I caught Sarah Blasko though - fantastic singer songwriter.

And I just want to say carn the Wollongong Lions! We have struggled since we entered the Sydney AFL, but there is a premiership in there somewhere - due in about 2020!

As for Port, it really suffers from a lot of pollution and has one of the rates of street crime in the Gong now - its not a pleasant place to live.

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 27, 2007 10:18 AM

Coops, underneath all of that Port still has a great community (I've got cousins that have been in the same house for 50 years +), tops beaches and a pretty little main street. Give it 10 years and it will be the Katoomba of the south. If the 'Gong-Shellharbour via Port light rail proposal ever got the nod, you'd be laughing.

Wow didn't know there was a Gong team in the S.AFL. They've just gained a fan. what colours - Royboys? or something appropriate to the Gong - what colour is cadmium? where do they play?

Caught the Go-B's in their 80s prime, and again when reforming supporting the genius Harvey at the Enmore in '01 (then flew to Europe the next day - life can be great sometimes.)

Posted by: peter warrington on June 27, 2007 5:17 PM

The Wollongong Lions are Scarlett and White, well Dark Red and White, pretty much the colours of the Illawarra Steelers, and they have a big lion head on their jumper.

They won the premiership in 2004 in the Sydney premiership just under the top Sydney AFL premiership. It surprised everyone - so they were promoted up to the big time.

Sine they have entered the main premiership they have struggled but Paul Roos has taken a shining to them, and its opened up a lot of opportunities and given Illawarra kids a chance to go and have a crack at playing AFL footy.

We might see a Swan born and breed in the Gong one day.

You know, I have to admit, I miss the Roy boys - I know they are Brisbane now, but Fitzroy is Fitzroy.

Yeah all the beaches down here are beautiful - I spent the last part of my teens growing up on the northern beaches such as Woonona and Bulli. Maybe I am just a northern snob! LOL :-)

Posted by: WP Cooper on June 28, 2007 12:07 PM

yep. snob. but i did love staying at Brozza's place in Bulli with the view right up the coast - looked like Big Sur after a few beers.

still trying to work out why they're Lions? obviously they have to have an animal not already in the comp. but why not snakes? goannas? petrels? gulls? wolves was already taken. why not call a spade a spade - The Wollongong Miners. sounds scary!

where there's home ground - might try and get some of the Newtown crowd down for a look see sometime.