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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

"As of how a Muslim like myself would end up being on a Mormon campus is a long story. But to make a long story short, I was interviewed in Gaza by two BYU professors who offered me a scholarship to attend this church-sponsored university. Many college students come to Utah only to be surprised how different it is from what they thought college life would be or what Hollywood told them it would be like. Alcohol, caffeine, Greek life and drugs are all replaced with root beer, brownies, church activities and ice cream. Making this conservative place a comfortable home for many Muslims."

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

We had Jehovah's Witnesses at our door today (didn't open it to them). I wondered today before seeing this topic.....what would happen had Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons came knocking at the door or Muslims.

With Calvinism, it's "once saved always saved", so if later you disbelieve, then what? With Sharia law, it's almost in practical terms "once Muslim, always Muslim", because Sharia law says that a forced convert is not a Muslim, but maybe it also says something about killing apostates. Calvinist "theocracies" in Massachusetts and Switzerland killed heretics too.

With Calvinism, religious paintings are bad. Same thing with Islam.

Intense simplification, pointing to the Bible and the Quran as THE sacred text, disregard for earlier religious traditions. In Islam, the angel came down to Muhammed and that's it, nothing since. Very simplistic, peeling away all the traditions and religious paintings.

Fr Hopko said that "new" religious phenomena, like Pentecostals speaking in tongues are not completely new, there were similar elements in earlier sects.

Islam is also like Jehovah Witness in the sense that they believe Jesus was a created being, although they respect him.

Bahai, Islam, Mormonism, Calvinism, Pentecostals, JWs, some new Asian religions and many other new religious movements base themselves on Jesus, calling him a prophet or even divine being.

Still, many Asians have not heard of Him, Judaism rejects Him, and the Orthodox Church keeps the traditions and faith of the early church. Some things sadly take a while to fulfill. However, having the faith of the early church cannot be a matter of conceit for us- since for example, sometimes it seems that the church itself has changed its position on things, like iconoclasm.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 04:47:35 PM by rakovsky »

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

But I think you're missing my point. I wasn't talking about the similarities between what Muslims and other quasi-Christian sects believe, since that's not really relevant to this thread. I was talking about the similarities between how the Muslim and Mormon sects began and grew into what they are today.

With Calvinism, it's "once saved always saved", so if later you disbelieve, then what?

Then you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place (note, I am quoting a serious Calvinist friend of mine on this one). A person has to persevere to their death for their faith to have been legitimate.

With Calvinism, it's "once saved always saved", so if later you disbelieve, then what?

Then you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place (note, I am quoting a serious Calvinist friend of mine on this one). A person has to persevere to their death for their faith to have been legitimate.

Besides the similar origins, it seems hard to see an alliance between "there is no God, but Allah" and "every man, woman, and child is a god in embryo, who if following the Word of their Father will grow to share and make Glory".

But I think you're missing my point. I wasn't talking about the similarities between what Muslims and other quasi-Christian sects believe, since that's not really relevant to this thread. I was talking about the similarities between how the Muslim and Mormon sects began and grew into what they are today.

Yes, there should be some similarities. Islam does have certain compulsion in its society that forced them to stay Muslim. Is there similar pressure in Mormonism to stay Mormon?

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

But I think you're missing my point. I wasn't talking about the similarities between what Muslims and other quasi-Christian sects believe, since that's not really relevant to this thread. I was talking about the similarities between how the Muslim and Mormon sects began and grew into what they are today.

Yes, there should be some similarities. Islam does have certain compulsion in its society that forced them to stay Muslim. Is there similar pressure in Mormonism to stay Mormon?

With Calvinism, it's "once saved always saved", so if later you disbelieve, then what?

Then you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place (note, I am quoting a serious Calvinist friend of mine on this one). A person has to persevere to their death for their faith to have been legitimate.

To keep the thread on topic, I am not debating this doctrinal invention, rather trying to show that there is a similarity between the spread of Calvinism and Islam, and show that this is part of a general phenomenon with the spread of Islam and Mormonism: part of the doctrine results in intense social pressure to conform.

In Islamic Sharia law, one must have a real, sincere conversion. Then Sharia law says that if you leave, bad things happen. The community members are all supposed to reject you at best. That's alot of pressure to stay in Islam.

Likewise, Calvinism invented the doctrine, like you said, that if you disbelieve then "you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place." In practical terms, the effect is that you have young people in Calvinist families who grow up assuming (and therefore believing) that what they were taught is true, but then they get older and have all kinds of religious doubts about the Calvinist system. "Maybe all the non-born agains aren't going to hell?", "Maybe the Orthodox are right?"

But how can they express these doubts? They have spent years telling the family they believe 100%, and now they have doubts? they question? That is not the sign of the saved, but the sign of the unsaved. There is lots of pressure in the society to rigidly conform to the Calvinist system without saying significant doubts or suggest that they could be wrong. No exploration of non-Calvinist ideas, only risk of rejection if you do so.

That is how Islam spreads- you get in, the others keep you in with lots of pressure.That is how Calvinism spreads- if you get in, it means you believe 100%, you are chosen irresistibly, so you cannot disagree with the system without showing yourself to be one of the "Totally Depraved" and risking ostracization.

In fact, in the pure Calvinist societies of Massachusetts and Switzerland, they did kill some they labeled heretics.

I understand that Muslim societies and Calvinist groups often do not work this way in reality (see for example many liberal Muslims in the former Soviet Union and common liberal attitudes in the modern-day Presbyterian Church USA). However, that is the way the school of thoughts works. If you leave, you get punished, or if you express disagreement, you get ostracized as a non-saved who deceives by claiming to be saved.

Of course, these schools of thought are problematic, which is why many movements coming from Islamoc Sharia or Calvinism, often fail to follow it exactly, if not in theory then in practice, Inshallah - God willing!

Regards

« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 08:23:58 PM by rakovsky »

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

But I think you're missing my point. I wasn't talking about the similarities between what Muslims and other quasi-Christian sects believe, since that's not really relevant to this thread. I was talking about the similarities between how the Muslim and Mormon sects began and grew into what they are today.

Yes, there should be some similarities. Islam does have certain compulsion in its society that forced them to stay Muslim. Is there similar pressure in Mormonism to stay Mormon?

There is a lot of pressure in Mormonism to stay Mormon.

Can you please talk about this? I heard there were some Mormon researchers who thought Mormonism actually allows women to have more of a role in their community. They printed their findings, and got expelled by some kind of Mormon court.

Scientology also has something called disconnection, where your families can't talk to you if you leave. Maybe some Amish do this with shunning.

Thus, we can look at the spread of some problematic schools of thought like Mormonism, Shariah Islam (I am not sure if that is all Islam), Scientology, Calvinism, and Amish, that are stronger because of doctrines that by definition make it hard to explore other ideas and leave.

However, one can argue back that these forcing doctrines might in fact push people away from them, since forcing doctrines are problematic- if it is the truth, why suspect people who explore disagreements, rather than address them as sincere.

Like Jesus talked about salt that loses its savor, can he not also find the stray sheep?

Further, one can point out that Jesus was actually rejected by the Chosen People. So it appears that unlike these post-Christian doctrines, God doesn't use "social acceptance" by one's peers as The Criterion to show that one has Right Faith (Orthodoxy).

Remember that the apostles questioned among themselves? One has to think about one's questions and pray.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 08:32:40 PM by rakovsky »

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Can you please talk about this? I heard there were some Mormon researchers who thought Mormonism actually allows women to have more of a role in their community. They printed their findings, and got expelled by some kind of Mormon court.

Mormon women do not have a priestly role, however, in the community they are expected to be the 'perfect wife'. The 'companionship role' is especially strong. Similarly, they are expected to to tend not only to their family, but to the needs of others within the community. Beyond, being a good neighbor, they fill many of the head roles in the church such as 'relief committee', adult and children 'catechism' study, taking care of the temple, etc.

Mind you, you don't 'sign up' for a position in the Mormon church. You're given a calling by your stake president or bishop (all men are priests who rotate in roles). This calling is considered a calling from God Himself, and should not be turned down, no matter the personal inconvenience.

There have been multiple "Mormon whistleblowers" who question Mormon practices or origins. In LDS, you DO NOT say anything against the church or you'll be excommunicated. Recent examples include:

Quote

David Wright (1994, for articles questioning the historicity of the Book of Mormon, Michael Barrett (1994, for writing letters to correct news stories about Mormonism), Brent Metcalfe (1994, for the anthology "New Approaches to the Book of Mormon"), Janice Allred (1997, for submitting theological papers to a Sunstone symposium), Margaret Toscano (2000, for writing on feminist issues), Shane LeGrande Whelan (2002, for his book, "More Than One: Plural Marriage, A Sacred Heritage, A Promise For Tomorrow").

The church is focused entirely on family. The Godhead is made of three separate persons. God the Father (Heavenly Father), is the literal father of your preexistent soul, who has a literal physical flesh body. Jesus Christ is the firstborn of these spirits and is the only born divine. The Holy Spirit is the only person of the Godhead to have spirit only.

So, from the get-go, the family unit is a small representation of the bigger picture. If you are Mormon and get 'sealed' in the temple through a 'celestial marriage', your marriage is seal forever so that you will exist together, married in heaven.

Just a touch on the theology, but you can see that if you left Mormonism, you are leaving EVERYTHING. You have turned you back on God, your family, your community, everything.

"As of how a Muslim like myself would end up being on a Mormon campus is a long story. But to make a long story short, I was interviewed in Gaza by two BYU professors who offered me a scholarship to attend this church-sponsored university. Many college students come to Utah only to be surprised how different it is from what they thought college life would be or what Hollywood told them it would be like. Alcohol, caffeine, Greek life and drugs are all replaced with root beer, brownies, church activities and ice cream. Making this conservative place a comfortable home for many Muslims."

I saw it as a possibility in regards to the Polygamy issue. But not in regards to this.

Mormons are moral people and so alot of muslims should find their culture appealing.

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

With Calvinism, it's "once saved always saved", so if later you disbelieve, then what?

Then you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place (note, I am quoting a serious Calvinist friend of mine on this one). A person has to persevere to their death for their faith to have been legitimate.

To keep the thread on topic, I am not debating this doctrinal invention, rather trying to show that there is a similarity between the spread of Calvinism and Islam, and show that this is part of a general phenomenon with the spread of Islam and Mormonism: part of the doctrine results in intense social pressure to conform.

In Islamic Sharia law, one must have a real, sincere conversion. Then Sharia law says that if you leave, bad things happen. The community members are all supposed to reject you at best. That's alot of pressure to stay in Islam.

Likewise, Calvinism invented the doctrine, like you said, that if you disbelieve then "you didn't really believe and weren't really saved in the first place." In practical terms, the effect is that you have young people in Calvinist families who grow up assuming (and therefore believing) that what they were taught is true, but then they get older and have all kinds of religious doubts about the Calvinist system. "Maybe all the non-born agains aren't going to hell?", "Maybe the Orthodox are right?"

But how can they express these doubts? They have spent years telling the family they believe 100%, and now they have doubts? they question? That is not the sign of the saved, but the sign of the unsaved. There is lots of pressure in the society to rigidly conform to the Calvinist system without saying significant doubts or suggest that they could be wrong. No exploration of non-Calvinist ideas, only risk of rejection if you do so.

That is how Islam spreads- you get in, the others keep you in with lots of pressure.That is how Calvinism spreads- if you get in, it means you believe 100%, you are chosen irresistibly, so you cannot disagree with the system without showing yourself to be one of the "Totally Depraved" and risking ostracization.

In fact, in the pure Calvinist societies of Massachusetts and Switzerland, they did kill some they labeled heretics.

I understand that Muslim societies and Calvinist groups often do not work this way in reality (see for example many liberal Muslims in the former Soviet Union and common liberal attitudes in the modern-day Presbyterian Church USA). However, that is the way the school of thoughts works. If you leave, you get punished, or if you express disagreement, you get ostracized as a non-saved who deceives by claiming to be saved.

Of course, these schools of thought are problematic, which is why many movements coming from Islamoc Sharia or Calvinism, often fail to follow it exactly, if not in theory then in practice, Inshallah - God willing!

Regards

But this isn't about Islam and Calvinism. This is about Islam and Mormonism.

"As of how a Muslim like myself would end up being on a Mormon campus is a long story. But to make a long story short, I was interviewed in Gaza by two BYU professors who offered me a scholarship to attend this church-sponsored university. Many college students come to Utah only to be surprised how different it is from what they thought college life would be or what Hollywood told them it would be like. Alcohol, caffeine, Greek life and drugs are all replaced with root beer, brownies, church activities and ice cream. Making this conservative place a comfortable home for many Muslims."

I saw it as a possibility in regards to the Polygamy issue. But not in regards to this.

Mormons are moral people and so alot of muslims should find their culture appealing.

I think the Mormon-Muslim Alliance (or MMA) will probably center around polygamy and the constitutionality of polygamy (or, more accurately polygyny), along with support of a greater 'moral public' (more restrictive zoning laws, maybe even greater restrictions on the selling of alcohol, e.g.). 'Moral public' issues wouldn't be all that strange to conservative Protestants (see the Blue Laws).

The MMA will be mostly a political alliance, within a secularized America no longer dominated by a Protestant mainstream. With Protestants no longer presenting a united front with will and purpose, the Mormons will have an opportunity to step up to the plate, with support from Muslims.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:58:50 AM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

"As of how a Muslim like myself would end up being on a Mormon campus is a long story. But to make a long story short, I was interviewed in Gaza by two BYU professors who offered me a scholarship to attend this church-sponsored university. Many college students come to Utah only to be surprised how different it is from what they thought college life would be or what Hollywood told them it would be like. Alcohol, caffeine, Greek life and drugs are all replaced with root beer, brownies, church activities and ice cream. Making this conservative place a comfortable home for many Muslims."

I saw it as a possibility in regards to the Polygamy issue. But not in regards to this.

Mormons are moral people and so alot of muslims should find their culture appealing.

I think the Mormon-Muslim Alliance (or MMA) will probably center around polygamy and the constitutionality of polygamy (or, more accurately polygyny), along with support of a greater 'moral public' (more restrictive zoning laws, maybe even greater restrictions on the selling of alcohol, e.g.). 'Moral public' issues wouldn't be all that strange to conservative Protestants (see the Blue Laws).

The MMA will be mostly a political alliance, within a secularized America no longer dominated by a Protestant mainstream. With Protestants no longer presenting a united front with will and purpose, the Mormons will have an opportunity to step up to the plate, with support from Muslims.

I agree!

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Looks like nobody told the Muslims that the Mormons are outright polytheists who believe in a multitude of gods, but that their obligation is only to one. Factor in also that every good Mormon becomes a god himself in the next life with his own world and band of worshippers and you have screaming red flags of shirk everywhere that would stop a Muslim's heart. I keep having to explain to those of them who travel westwards and whose small exposure to Christianity is restricted to the religion of their fellow countrymen that where they're heading the label Christian is one of the loosest labels and amongst the most cheaply bandied about and adopted. In fact, I would just as likely have to tell Middle Eastern Christians the exact same thing, for whom 'Christianity' simply means 'apostolic'.

Looks like nobody told the Muslims that the Mormons are outright polytheists....

Isn't that what Muslims already think about Christians? I figure Mormons are thinking, "Hey, they already think that the Trinitarians are polytheists. Might as well go all the way!"

« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:50:29 PM by Jetavan »

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Mormon teachings on God and the trinity would place them under the category of "polytheists", even more so than Catholic, Orthodox, or Reform. You can't pick a group more at odds with the main tenet of the Islamic faith. And yet the conservative lifestyle fits them better than your average lapsed Christian.

"As of how a Muslim like myself would end up being on a Mormon campus is a long story. But to make a long story short, I was interviewed in Gaza by two BYU professors who offered me a scholarship to attend this church-sponsored university. Many college students come to Utah only to be surprised how different it is from what they thought college life would be or what Hollywood told them it would be like. Alcohol, caffeine, Greek life and drugs are all replaced with root beer, brownies, church activities and ice cream. Making this conservative place a comfortable home for many Muslims."

I saw it as a possibility in regards to the Polygamy issue. But not in regards to this.

Mormons are moral people and so alot of muslims should find their culture appealing.

I think the Mormon-Muslim Alliance (or MMA) will probably center around polygamy and the constitutionality of polygamy (or, more accurately polygyny), along with support of a greater 'moral public' (more restrictive zoning laws, maybe even greater restrictions on the selling of alcohol, e.g.). 'Moral public' issues wouldn't be all that strange to conservative Protestants (see the Blue Laws).

The MMA will be mostly a political alliance, within a secularized America no longer dominated by a Protestant mainstream. With Protestants no longer presenting a united front with will and purpose, the Mormons will have an opportunity to step up to the plate, with support from Muslims.

I should clarify that 19th-century Mormons mostly engaged in polygyny, but some degree of polyandry (one woman married to two or more men) did occur.

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I remember this way back in 1983. I thought it strange then. My opinion hasn't changed.

Btw, BYU is doing a LOT of top notch stuff in Arabic and Islamic studies now, e.g. their excellent publication of Islamic(ate) philosophy in Arabic and English.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth