Post by deyana on Sept 19, 2015 11:58:35 GMT

i think the fact that the majority is men has among other things to do with that a lot of them might want to flee from the danger of being recruited by different fighting factions. and i can completely understand that. why don't they stay and fight is easy to say for anyone who is not being asked to kill and run risk of getting killed. i have no idea what i'd do - i am not a fighting type of person (and nor are my brothers or father or husband), and while i might feel also a wish to defend my home, the wish to survive would likely be stronger.

of course there are more reasons, dangers of sexual violence during the journey for women, the way men and women are expected to act in different cultures, the men seeing it as their responsibility to face the dangerous journey first and then try to get their wife and children (or mother and siblings) to follow them once they found a place to settle, etc. ... but why would that mean they have no right to flee?

(it's not just in the case of fighting that i think it is somewhat cynical by the way - a friend was told by the person in the state office that refused her attempts to stay here that she should go home and help build up her country, as the war is over - this was a woman in her late thirties with no living relatives, and i was told from other sources that a woman in such a situation in her country is pretty much doomed - so no matter what is thought whether she has a right to stay here or has to go home, telling her she should help build up her country is really cynical when what she will face is a struggle for survival)

I agree with what you are saying, Rikita. I think much of the negative opinions towards the young male refugees come from the white man of the country they are trying to enter. Paranoia runs supreme. But it's more than just that, it's almost like they feel threatened by these young men, and not because they could be "terrorists" or they think they should stay in their own countries and join in the killing there. And it annoys me that if they had found themselves in the same situation they would flee a war zone the first chance they got. Hypocritical.

Post by onlyMark on Sept 19, 2015 14:26:24 GMT

I think much of the negative opinions towards the young male refugees come from the white man of the country they are trying to enter.

As probably 95% of Europeans are white then of course those with a negative opinion are going to be white.It's a bit like me saying I wanted to live in India and if someone had a negative opinion about it, they were Indian.

And why do you think the white men of Europe who do have negative opinions feel threatened by them? In what way then? What do you base this on?

Edited to add - and you seem to gloss over the fact that those expressing a positive opinion and are willing to help are white, (for the same reason because 95% of Europeans are white in any case).

Anyone complaining about the few Europeans who are complaining maybe ought to vent their ire on those countries above instead who are accepting none, zero, zip, not one, nada (and they are not the only countries. I'm looking at you, Denmark).

Post by kerouac2 on Sept 19, 2015 17:18:16 GMT

Since it has been determined that the grand total of all of the refugees (economic or otherwise) trying to get to Europe represent 0.1% of the population of the EU, fearful and negative reactions seem to me to have been disproportionate. Compared to countries like Jordan or Lebanon where 30% of the population is now composed of refugees, it would be laughable if it were not tragic.

I don't think that the argument of "different race and religion = big problems" holds much water since frankly there are no examples from the past that can be used for comparison, other than just a simple fear of the unknown.

In any case, people of the same race and religion have been treated horribly in the past. One needs only to read up on the Great Famine in Ireland to understand how the governments of the time were completely willing to let more than one million people die of starvation and disease and how the other million who emigrated were treated with repugnance in England and the United States.

As for the GCC countries not offering asylum to the refugees, I find it pretty disgusting, but they are at least paying billions of dollars to finance the refugee camps in the region. If our countries were paying billions of dollars in those countries, the refugees might not find it so urgent to move along elsewhere. And yet, I do understand to a certain extent why the GCC countries do not want to accept more foreigners. You only need to take a look at the current statistics for the number of non-nationals already residing in those countries. If our own countries had such percentages, I would very easily understand our reluctance not to want more foreigners as well.

Post by onlyMark on Sept 19, 2015 20:39:25 GMT

So you can't qualify why you say white men feel threatened. If in fact they do.

Nor can you accept that as Europe is 95% white then anyone who does complain is virtually guaranteed to be white anyway. Of course they are. You just throw out an inflammatory statement denigrating white males without a thought and expect it to be accepted. Sorry, no.If I said I'd been discriminated against by black males in Africa you wouldn't stand up for me because all discrimination is wrong, nor as a male if I was discriminated against by females. You have to understand that ALL discrimination is wrong no matter what sex, race, colour or whatever. Not just white on black or male on female.You can't simplistically say, "....much of the negative opinions towards the young male refugees come from the white man..." without consequences and without accepting the bleedin' obvious concerning the colour of Europeans.

Post by fumobici on Sept 19, 2015 21:46:26 GMT

So you can't qualify why you say white men feel threatened. If in fact they do.

Nor can you accept that as Europe is 95% white then anyone who does complain is virtually guaranteed to be white anyway. Of course they are. You just throw out an inflammatory statement denigrating white males without a thought and expect it to be accepted. Sorry, no.If I said I'd been discriminated against by black males in Africa you wouldn't stand up for me because all discrimination is wrong, nor as a male if I was discriminated against by females. You have to understand that ALL discrimination is wrong no matter what sex, race, colour or whatever. Not just white on black or male on female.You can't simplistically say, "....much of the negative opinions towards the young male refugees come from the white man..." without consequences and without accepting the bleedin' obvious concerning the colour of Europeans.

Post by rikita on Sept 19, 2015 21:59:47 GMT

I use the word refugee to mean someone looking for refuge. Many of these people are "economic migrants", looking for a better life and some could be terrorists in disguise.

from what i understand, a big part of the current refugees are coming from war areas, so i'd say they are indeed looking for refuge and thus would fit your definition, wouldn't they?

i suppose economic migrants are not refugees in that sense, but i still have a lot of understanding for them, looking for a better life is a part of human nature ... i have at times considered looking for a better paid job in other towns, or other countries, though i have the luxury to be able to do so without moving until i find such a job ...

Post by questa on Sept 19, 2015 23:56:55 GMT

In 1916 Britain and France, and to a lesser extent, Russia, devised the Sykes-Picot Agreement which carved up the old Ottoman territories into French and British territories and created the mess the Middle East soon became. From that time there have been countless wars, tyrants and large sections of populations massacred. Waves of people seeking refuge from war and persecution are not new in this region. The shadow of Sykes-Picot still hangs over it all and until France and Britain acknowledge their greed and self-interest in re-drawing the maps, the troubles will not cease.

They could start by doing more in the current situation...air-lifts for the refugees stuck at the borders of recalcitrant countries for a start. Then more done to re-settle displaced families etc."The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) claims one of the goals of its insurgency is to reverse the effects of the Sykes–Picot Agreement. "This is not the first border we will break, we will break other borders," a jihadist from the ISIL warned in the video called End of Sykes-Picot. ISIL's leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in a July 2014 speech at the Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul vowed that "this blessed advance will not stop until we hit the last nail in the coffin of the Sykes–Picot conspiracy".

Travel! Set out and head for pastures new[br] Life tastes the richer when you’ve road worn feet.[br]Ibn Battuta[br]

Post by kerouac2 on Sept 20, 2015 5:32:02 GMT

It is indeed true that so much of the current situation is the result of empires and other colonial rulers who drew arbitrary lines on maps -- and so much of the rest of the problem is due to the cancer of religion sweeping across continents over the centuries with the "enlightened" preferring to eliminate all miscreants rather than allowing them to live in peace.

Post by bixaorellana on Sept 20, 2015 14:59:14 GMT

I use the word refugee to mean someone looking for refuge. Many of these people are "economic migrants", looking for a better life and some could be terrorists in disguise.

from what i understand, a big part of the current refugees are coming from war areas, so i'd say they are indeed looking for refuge and thus would fit your definition, wouldn't they?

i suppose economic migrants are not refugees in that sense, but i still have a lot of understanding for them, looking for a better life is a part of human nature ... i have at times considered looking for a better paid job in other towns, or other countries, though i have the luxury to be able to do so without moving until i find such a job ...

Economic migrants can certainly be considered refugees when they're fleeing circumstances such as their children dying from lack of medical care or the family suffering from malnutrition, or even simply wanting to work and there being no jobs. The Irish famine was mentioned earlier in this thread as such an example. One of my great-grandfathers & his brother migrated to Colorado for a spell of working in the mines. They were farmers, not miners, but desperate to make a living.

Post by casimira on Sept 22, 2015 20:25:15 GMT

Well, I do profess ignorance with regard to much of the data and overall saturation of so called " information" that is "out there" in more ways than one, and what one" buys as the truth".I rarely, if ever, comb through all the plethora of the internet's onslaught of so called facts and attempts at persuasion, either one way or the other.( I do live with a man who does and that's enough for me )

I knew you were going to throw in the Trump reference, "twas bait actually,all in jest I assure you.(As I commented earlier on, in another thread, it's all Kabuki Theater...).

The US has supremely neglected it's own citizens, American Veterans in particular.We have been housing someone who is a veteran, and despite all our resources with the many contacts we know and them some,this gentleman has yet to see a penny come his way and this has been going on since May of this year.And yet, the First Lady and mayor of our fair city have touted how successful the "veteran problem" has been solved as they wined and dined at a press conference this past spring at one of the finest eateries in town.F'n infuriating.Yeah right....

I try and put my energies into my own "backyard", and keep abreast of local issues, rather than try and tackle global issues of which I remain powerless.

Post by questa on Sept 23, 2015 0:48:34 GMT

The word 'refugee' has come to mean so many different things, from the homeless man in the street seeking refuge from the cold nights, to the massive movement of people across the world we are seeing now.Casi is doing her bit in the "think globally, act locally" manner and is right to bewail the absence of government or community support for her 'refugee'. My cynical self says "it doesn't make good TV pictures" so there is little help available.

All governments have been too slow to respond to the crisis, being too hung up on the politics and not seeing the need to help the grieving, scared, lonely, hungry people just looking to keep what is left of their families together. These need must be met first then argue the politics later.

Australia opened its doors to many Hungarian refugees in 1956, and refugees from the break-up of Yugoslavia more recently. Now these countries have closed their borders to the newest wave of people seeking help. Shame on them.

As a footnote...1974, Cyclone Tracy destroyed the city of Darwin in Northern Australia. Many residents chose to drive thousands of Km south and staging posts were set up to help them on their way. I was at one post where, in haste, someone had scrawled a sign, "Darwin Refugees Staging post"A battered car rolled in and a man got out and read the sign, "Better change that sign, Mate" he said, "They're not refugees, they're just people like us".

Travel! Set out and head for pastures new[br] Life tastes the richer when you’ve road worn feet.[br]Ibn Battuta[br]

Post by whatagain on Sept 24, 2015 15:37:43 GMT

The most racists of the French (FN, not to cite them) are now all saying taht we should pay attention to our own tramps.Which they superbly ignored for decades.

You don't have to look much to find excuses to do nothing. And claim it is beyond your reach.I guess some people said the same in 1933 when some guy started having laws against Jews.

If I donate money for the blind, should I ignore the olds ? If I support the olds, should I not do anything for dogs ?We are not forced to help everybody but we should at least refrain from slowing down help for others.

As for me, I'm always surprised to find debate on travelforums - I would think that people well travelled would realize that we are all the same everywhere. Some are just lucky to be born in the US instead of in Niger...

As for those closing their borders, I just saw on these UNDP stats that I downloaded yesterday that Hungary has 4,7% of immigrants in their country. Against about 12% in France and Germany.Romania 1% ... seems the less immigrants you have, the faster you close your border.

US has 14% of immigrants. However depending on when we set the time limit to declare someone a migrant, I'd say US has 99% of immigrants : people who fled Europe because they were too poor or adventurous ones, and slaves bought from Africa.

You mix that and add some illegal immigration from a country that US invaded in 19 century and you get (mostly) great people.So, I'd say immigration can be a source of immense progress.

Post by bixaorellana on Sept 30, 2015 14:53:42 GMT

Truly a mission of mercy. It's hard to think of what constitutes a good basic list when, as you say, we take those things so much for granted.

One thing I would add to such a list is something I took away from Europe and am hoarding. You all who live there will laugh, but the facial tissue mini packs there are so much better than the ones available on this side of the Atlantic. I have some from Carrefour and some I bought in Turkey -- store brand, not fancy brand -- and they are large enough and sturdy enough to use for general wipe-ups at the table, etc. And baby-wipes aren't just for babies' bottoms. I see all those people struggling to carry their kids and possessions and having to stand in line for toilet facilities and think how they don't even have these small modern conveniences to fall back on.

Post by questa on Sept 30, 2015 15:07:27 GMT

US has 14% of immigrants. However depending on when we set the time limit to declare someone a migrant, I'd say US has 99% of immigrants : people who fled Europe because they were too poor or adventurous ones, and slaves bought from Africa......

So, I'd say immigration can be a source of immense progress.

Given that Australia was already peopled by Aboriginal and Torres Strait communities for 40,000 years before European settlement 230 years ago, 97% of our population today are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Currently one in four people were born overseas or have a parent born overseas. They came to escape war and persecution and make better lives for themselves.

The current problem is the vast numbers on the move at one time, and meeting their needs.

Travel! Set out and head for pastures new[br] Life tastes the richer when you’ve road worn feet.[br]Ibn Battuta[br]