I think it's just a final big push. 8+ years spent trying to figure who's who and exactly what to do or needs to be done. 8+ years of trial and error making progress. Now, they push hard to get the rest out.

they are doing it, just that Taliban outsmart them every time or they just can't figure out the right strategy. most likely W and his dumb ass generals keep marching on the wrong track.

Congrats on talking out your ass.

everything has a first try.

ok here is what i think. they pay less attention to Afghan and Taliban when shit start in Iraq. The operation and strategy, no doubt have been established but there is no way to increase the troops or higher budget when under fire from voters. only when God disguised as a half-black man order them and nobody questions so much.

Heartless: Why did they tell everyone what they were doing before they started?

For a variety of reasons. The two most important however is this:

1) You're a dirt farmer, little English, hell, little understanding of America and the American Military. All you know is what the Taliban has been drilling into your brain for decades. Now, if you hear that this giant of coalition of nations bearing down upon you, breathing smoke and fire, you're first initial reaction is to run fast, and run far away.

2) You're actually an insurgent. If we caught you by surprise, you're most likely to stand and fight to prove a point, if nothing else. Now, if you also knew that your coming death was imminent, and if you melted back into civilian life, you might have a good chance of living a normal life.

Does that make sense?

--------------------

QUOTE (Qdeathstar @ Mar 13 2009, 01:45 AM)

The reason is that when heartless says something stupid, he really means it and believes it.

“They refer to me as an uneducated barbarian. Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians, it is an honored title to us. We shall rejuvenate the world. This world is near its end.”

Bullshit. How can you be an insurgent in your own country? No offence to anyone but the lack of knowledge in these political topics is laughable sometimes.......and for that reason I'm out!

Uh, yes you can be an insurgent in your own country as insurgent is simply another term for rebel, they are interchangeable.

According to international law an insurgent is a person or group that rises in revolt against an established government or authority but whose conduct does not amount to belligerency. The Taliban are fighting against an occupation force because they want their country back, not because they hate NATO or are seeking to gain from the warfare(wanting the power back that the occupation force took from them doesn't count as 'gains'). Right or wrong they are a resistance force fighting an occupation not a military force fighting a war, they are insurgents/rebels.

Whether or not the force/government they are rebelling against is legitimate or whether or not it deserves to be revolted against is irrelevant, it's still a rebellion - still an insurgency.

I refer to it as a war myself since it's easier than saying "state of armed conflict" or "armed resistance/insurgency against the occupation", but war is not really what this is. Like the Israel-Palestine conflict isn't really a war, it's one overwhelmingly superior military force occupying another country and fighting rag-tag groups of resistance fighters using whatever means they can to survive.

QUOTE

For a variety of reasons. The two most important however is this:

1) You're a dirt farmer, little English, hell, little understanding of America and the American Military. All you know is what the Taliban has been drilling into your brain for decades. Now, if you hear that this giant of coalition of nations bearing down upon you, breathing smoke and fire, you're first initial reaction is to run fast, and run far away.

2) You're actually an insurgent. If we caught you by surprise, you're most likely to stand and fight to prove a point, if nothing else. Now, if you also knew that your coming death was imminent, and if you melted back into civilian life, you might have a good chance of living a normal life.

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense. The reason the Taliban are still a force to be reckoned with after 9 years is because we always tell them when we are going to attack them, so they just leave the area and wait till we're done and come back and make a mess of things again.

Reminds me of the spring of '03 or '04 when NATO announced it would be conducting a huge airborne operation into the mountains during the Summer to take out the Taliban during the fighting 'off-season' when most Taliban were busy farming crops of Opium to fight(hence why the winter is most bloody since there isn't much farming to distract the Taliban from fighting). The Taliban weren't there by the time they went in and though they claimed the operation was a success they only managed to burn down/blow up some empty buildings they suspected of being used by the Taliban and killed a few guys with AK's that probably weren't Taliban at all.

This war can't be won by showing the Taliban that kind of mercy, nor can this war be won by being merciless as that would just cause more civilians to join the Taliban's ranks. This war can't be won, period.

Unfortunately NATO isn't going to stop trying(and failing) for quite a while as Afghanistan is the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" and is far too strategically important to just hand back over to the Taliban. Just ask the Russians, they payed the price before and are now laughing at us for not learning from their mistakes.

Some people say Afghanistan doesn't have any resources so the war isn't about imperialism or corporate war profiteering and such, yet they clearly have never picked up a history book or geography book/map as if they had they'd know that Afghanistan has one of the most valuable resources in the Mid-East for the U.S and it's allies to exploit - location, location, location. It's not the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" for no reason, controlling the Mid-East can not be achieved without controlling the 'Stan.

The U.S doesn't give a shit about the Afghan people, they've done nothing but blow things up and destroy what economy they actually have(mainly Opium farming) pushing thousands of former farmers into working for the Taliban to support their families. But hey, we build them a new school every once and a while(so we can ensure they get a "proper" brainwashing, err... education), surely that will make up for destroying their lives.

I mean having my livelihood destroyed right now will surely be made up for by the fact my kids will be able to maybe have the intelligence to start businesses and such themselves, in 10 or 15 years... In the mean time rather than get paid by the Taliban to fight NATO forces I'll just do nothing and let my family starve.

NATO attempts to provide new options for sources of income have failed miserably, most of their programs don't pay enough for people to support their families and by participating in those programs they're families will likely be killed by the Taliban because NATO doesn't have enough forces to protect the people it woo's over by telling them they'll be protected.

Operation Enduring Clusterfuck will continue till NATO either is defeated or breaks apart due to internal strife caused by it, of which there is plenty.

For the record I have always opposed the Taliban's extremist religious belief's but most of the Taliban fighters these days are no more religiously extreme than an atheist, they are simply people with no other choice but to accept paychecks from the Taliban to support their families or people who have come to hate the occupation, as any sane person eventually would. I harbor no hate for those individuals, only for the NATO leaders that forced them into those positions.

1-No, it doesn't make sense. The reason the Taliban are still a force to be reckoned with after 9 years is because we always tell them when we are going to attack them, so they just leave the area and wait till we're done and come back and make a mess of things again.

2-Reminds me of the spring of '03 or '04 when NATO announced it would be conducting a huge airborne operation into the mountains during the Summer to take out the Taliban during the fighting 'off-season' when most Taliban were busy farming crops of Opium to fight(hence why the winter is most bloody since there isn't much farming to distract the Taliban from fighting). The Taliban weren't there by the time they went in and though they claimed the operation was a success 2-they only managed to burn down/blow up some empty buildings they suspected of being used by the Taliban and killed a few guys with AK's that probably weren't Taliban at all.

This war can't be won by showing the Taliban that kind of mercy, nor can this war be won by being merciless as that would just cause more civilians to join the Taliban's ranks. This war can't be won, period.

Unfortunately NATO isn't going to stop trying(and failing) for quite a while as Afghanistan is the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" and is far too strategically important to just hand back over to the Taliban. Just ask the Russians, they payed the price before and are now laughing at us for not learning from their mistakes.

Some people say Afghanistan doesn't have any resources so the war isn't about imperialism or corporate war profiteering and such, yet they clearly have never picked up a history book or geography book/map as if they had they'd know that Afghanistan has one of the most valuable resources in the Mid-East for the U.S and it's allies to exploit - location, location, location. It's not the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" for no reason, controlling the Mid-East can not be achieved without controlling the 'Stan.

3-The U.S doesn't give a shit about the Afghan people, they've done nothing but blow things up and destroy what economy they actually have(mainly Opium farming) pushing thousands of former farmers into working for the Taliban to support their families. But hey, we build them a new school every once and a while(so we can ensure they get a "proper" brainwashing, err... education), surely that will make up for destroying their lives.

I mean having my livelihood destroyed right now will surely be made up for by the fact my kids will be able to maybe have the intelligence to start businesses and such themselves, in 10 or 15 years... In the mean time rather than get paid by the Taliban to fight NATO forces I'll just do nothing and let my family starve.

NATO attempts to provide new options for sources of income have failed miserably, most of their programs don't pay enough for people to support their families and by participating in those programs they're families will likely be killed by the Taliban because NATO doesn't have enough forces to protect the people it woo's over by telling them they'll be protected.

4-Operation Enduring Clusterfuck will continue till NATO either is defeated or breaks apart due to internal strife caused by it, of which there is plenty.

For the record I have always opposed the Taliban's extremist religious belief's but most of the Taliban fighters these days are no more religiously extreme than an atheist, they are simply people with no other choice but to accept paychecks from the Taliban to support their families or people who have come to hate the occupation, as any sane person eventually would. I harbor no hate for those individuals, only for the NATO leaders that forced them into those positions.

1-Yes and No.

2-Something we have been doing and will do in the future has not and will not be on the news. They know a small part of the story. Taliban that is. 2-Also, you're dumb for saying that.

3-The ignorance with which you post is hurtful. We have put thousands in a terrible position in war to help the Afghan people. We are even training infantry to act as police and part of patrols in instances is literally to go talk to people, many seen on a day to week basis, just to talk about how things are going and how they feel.

1-No, it doesn't make sense. The reason the Taliban are still a force to be reckoned with after 9 years is because we always tell them when we are going to attack them, so they just leave the area and wait till we're done and come back and make a mess of things again.

2-Reminds me of the spring of '03 or '04 when NATO announced it would be conducting a huge airborne operation into the mountains during the Summer to take out the Taliban during the fighting 'off-season' when most Taliban were busy farming crops of Opium to fight(hence why the winter is most bloody since there isn't much farming to distract the Taliban from fighting). The Taliban weren't there by the time they went in and though they claimed the operation was a success 2-they only managed to burn down/blow up some empty buildings they suspected of being used by the Taliban and killed a few guys with AK's that probably weren't Taliban at all.

This war can't be won by showing the Taliban that kind of mercy, nor can this war be won by being merciless as that would just cause more civilians to join the Taliban's ranks. This war can't be won, period.

Unfortunately NATO isn't going to stop trying(and failing) for quite a while as Afghanistan is the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" and is far too strategically important to just hand back over to the Taliban. Just ask the Russians, they payed the price before and are now laughing at us for not learning from their mistakes.

Some people say Afghanistan doesn't have any resources so the war isn't about imperialism or corporate war profiteering and such, yet they clearly have never picked up a history book or geography book/map as if they had they'd know that Afghanistan has one of the most valuable resources in the Mid-East for the U.S and it's allies to exploit - location, location, location. It's not the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" for no reason, controlling the Mid-East can not be achieved without controlling the 'Stan.

3-The U.S doesn't give a shit about the Afghan people, they've done nothing but blow things up and destroy what economy they actually have(mainly Opium farming) pushing thousands of former farmers into working for the Taliban to support their families. But hey, we build them a new school every once and a while(so we can ensure they get a "proper" brainwashing, err... education), surely that will make up for destroying their lives.

I mean having my livelihood destroyed right now will surely be made up for by the fact my kids will be able to maybe have the intelligence to start businesses and such themselves, in 10 or 15 years... In the mean time rather than get paid by the Taliban to fight NATO forces I'll just do nothing and let my family starve.

NATO attempts to provide new options for sources of income have failed miserably, most of their programs don't pay enough for people to support their families and by participating in those programs they're families will likely be killed by the Taliban because NATO doesn't have enough forces to protect the people it woo's over by telling them they'll be protected.

4-Operation Enduring Clusterfuck will continue till NATO either is defeated or breaks apart due to internal strife caused by it, of which there is plenty.

For the record I have always opposed the Taliban's extremist religious belief's but most of the Taliban fighters these days are no more religiously extreme than an atheist, they are simply people with no other choice but to accept paychecks from the Taliban to support their families or people who have come to hate the occupation, as any sane person eventually would. I harbor no hate for those individuals, only for the NATO leaders that forced them into those positions.

1-Yes and No.

2-Something we have been doing and will do in the future has not and will not be on the news. They know a small part of the story. Taliban that is. 2-Also, you're dumb for saying that.

3-The ignorance with which you post is hurtful. We have put thousands in a terrible position in war to help the Afghan people. We are even training infantry to act as police and part of patrols in instances is literally to go talk to people, many seen on a day to week basis, just to talk about how things are going and how they feel.

4-Wait, hold on, that just validated everything you said.

1. care to expand?

2a. It doesn't matter if they only know a small part, the way a guerrilla force survives is by moving from area to area to evade the occupation forces main elements and going for the weak spots so if they even get a hint of an operation in a certain area they bail out and go wait it out elsewhere. I've read of NATO announcing operations in certain areas in attempts to get the Taliban to move to the actual area of operations but none apparently have been too successful since the Taliban just spread out rather than moving to another area and grouping en mass there.

Sometimes the Taliban does stay and do battle but most of the time they run, if they didn't run this conflict would have been over long ago.

NATO constantly ends up spending too much money and time on operations that have very limited success, that fact is not exactly a secret and is the main reason there is so much strife in NATO surrounding the Afghan mission and why so many countries want so little to do with it all.

2b. So it's stupid to mention that mostly what they achieve is blowing up empty buildings that are easily rebuilt and killing anyone with a gun that looks menacing in any way(usually just a few of them), even though as in Iraq households are allowed to have a gun and someone having a gun does not automatically make them Taliban just because they are in an area NATO forces are conducting an operation in.

What if someone wants to defend themselves so they get a gun and then when they hear some shooting they get their gun and go to check it out to try to protect their families and get blown apart cause some NATO trooper saw a raghead with an AK and that was good enough reason to blow him away?

Never mind the fact that there are all sorts of criminal elements that have nothing to do with the Taliban that get grouped in with them too, anyone with a gun that gets killed is Taliban whether true or not. Just like in Iraq when in many areas most of the violence was caused by criminal gangs rather than AQ terrorists or insurgents it was referred to as "insurgent violence" anyways. Do we call gangbangers or gangsters insurgents in America, Canada, Brittan, Germany, etc.?

3. Yeah, out of hundreds of thousands of troops we're sending out a few thousand to talk to people and listen to people and help people, then because we don't have enough troops there to protect them the Taliban see them talking with NATO troops and punish them by killing their families and making examples out of them. A little bit of fear goes further than a little bit of kindness mixed in with a whole lot of hell.

The CAF has attempted a few goodwill operations to provide medical aid and food and such to some villages in Afghanistan but those programs only worked till the troops got pulled from those villages to assist in combat operations elsewhere and those villagers became sitting ducks for the Taliban to exact revenge on them for taking aid from NATO.

Killing Taliban and jacking up those kill stats takes priority over protecting the Afghan people. When NATO forces come to a town/village and set up shop and say they'll stick around and protect the people but then some Taliban forces in another area cause a ruckus so those troops get sent there to reinforce instead then those villagers don't care about the big picture, they care that they have now been left defenseless against the local Taliban forces after they were told NATO would protect them.

You may see redeploying forces from one area to another to deal with the most violent regions as a priority for fighting a larger war but the Afghan people being left behind after false promises of security don't care about the larger war, they care about their own asses being left hanging in the wind for the Taliban to come back and make examples of them about why Afghan's shouldn't help NATO.

And then you say they should fight back themselves and help themselves against a militant force that a coalition of the world's most powerful militaries can barely handle and have not come close to defeating after over 8 years of heavy combat with advanced weaponry and equipment.

Yeah sure, why don't they go pick up an AK and go kill some Taliban, then the Taliban can exact revenge with a truck bomb that levels their whole village and gives them no chance to defend themselves. I can't understand why they wouldn't want to do that, they clearly are cowards... [/sarcasm]

4. So what, are you implying OEF hasn't been one giant fuck-up even after many of the commanders of NATO forces in the region have admitted that there have been a lot of problems with management and achieving operational successes over the many years this operation has been stumbling along?

You can blame it on the climate of the conflict and the damn libtards whining about civilians all the time and being pussies or you can blame it on Pakistan and their lack of ability to secure their country and it's borders but the fact remains warfare is about exploiting your enemies weaknesses in order to defeat them and the Taliban are exploiting the few weaknesses that the world's most powerful armed forces have in the region - ie, their arrogant stupidity in underestimating the Taliban early in the war, lack of proper knowledge of the people and culture they are fighting, and of course the political horseshit.

Less of Afghanistan is controlled by NATO forces now than in past years, the political climate of the war is changing and people are getting sick of this conflict(right or wrong) dragging on and on without a clearly foreseeable successful conclusion; as the Russians know well we picked a fight we couldn't win and now we're just wasting money and time and lives trying to save face.

Having a big body count may make you feel good and make it seem like we're winning but practically everything else says we're losing. It's too late for hearts and minds now and we did a shit ass job of it before and anti-NATO sentiment is growing, even many of those who support us are getting sick of us being there and it's time for us to stop pretending like we can win this.

If there's one thing that has been proven in Afghanistan it's that the longer we stay the more enemies we have to fight. Even beloved liberators turn into despised occupiers eventually when their presence just means continued violence.