I think if we do not ever get round to testing eastern Europe for L21 we will never be able to even start guessing how far east L21 fist happened. I suspect S116 first happened quite far east, perhaps in the Balkans, and that L21 happened somewhere along the Danube. I base this on the basis that S116* is found on both sides of the Alps but L21 is only found on the north. In eastern Europe the Czech Rep-Slovakia-south Poland axis was an important Celtic metal trade area in the Iron Age. To the south, the Danube is the natural route (Austria and Hungary) between the east and west north of the Alps. Almost all L21 lies north of the Alps and Pyrenees so its pretty clear that its an axis L21 would have travelled along.

This is tantamount to saying Italo-Celtic speaking peoples carried a lot of P312* with them and that L21 originated on the Celtic side of the Italo-Celtic split.

Did the LBK stay north of the Alps and Pyrenees? Is south all Impressed Wares lands?

/quote]This is tantamount to saying Italo-Celtic speaking peoples carried a lot of P312* with them and that L21 originated on the Celtic side of the Italo-Celtic split.

Did the LBK stay north of the Alps and Pyrenees? Is south all Impressed Wares lands?[/quote]

Roughly speaking yes. There was a large area in between them that wasnt settled by either the classic LBK or Impressed Ware but LBK seeems to be the root of descendant cultures like Rossen and Michelsburgh, Funnel Beaker, probably the isles Neolithic etc and there expansion filled in most of the gaps. The problem with the idea that S116 travelled west by both the Danubian and Mediteranean routes is that that requires S116 to have already happened in a common shared root cultute before the two cultures parted c. 8000 years ago somewhere in the Balkans and L21 to have happened by perhaps 7000 years ago.

A number of these guys appear simply as kit numbers on our Y-DNA Results page because they have not put anything into their "Plot Ancestral Locations" pages. I have no control over that; it's up to the individual member to complete the "PAL" page.

I emailed FTDNA about Barbier because I thought such a fast result impossible and probably the product of a computer error, but they said no, he was tested and is L21-. :(

Hopefully things will be better for the rest.

Got to say if even 5 or 6 of those 9 come in L21, it will make a real impact on the L21 map. There seems to be a real momentum at the moment. I hope public interest continues and some more donations are made allow the progress of the last 6 months to continue.

I've been trying to recruit some others for testing, but it is apparently harder to give away L21 tests than I thought it was.

Strange. I think sometimes the main remover of motivation may be that what they think L21 represents may not correspond with their identity. For example Neilthered's example of Danish guys who were perhaps not overjoyed with the idea of going to the bother of testing to prove they were British slaves or something. So, its probably worth regularly pointing out on boards and lists that we do not know what it means really and are speculating and that the out of the isles idea does not make any sense in light of the numbers in France and adjacent areas and in the light of archaelogical evidence.

It seems to relate to a prehistoric spread that was of huge importance in NW Europe. It seems to have been especially high among the Celts but that is not to say that it was spread by people who were already Celts. Judging by variance dating, when S21, S28, S116* and L21 spread, they were all very recent branches of the same R1b1b2 tree seperated by only a number of generations and so were essentially the one people probably speaking the one language. They also in most areas seem to have been thoroughly mixed together.

So, the differentialtion into Celtic and German would then have really been down to geography, networks of interaction and political considerations, not down to how many L21s or S28 there were in one area. So, I do not think what made a Celt a Celt or a German a German had anything to do with these clades otherwise how do we explain the high L21 in Ireland and parts of the isles and, the mix of L21, S28 and S116*etc in France, the dominance of S116* in Iberia, etc even though they were all Celtic spreaking.

So I am saying there do seem to be trends like a lot of L21 and S28 among Celts and S21 among Germans but they probably were never absolutes and what clades predominated in one area or other probably initially made no difference in terms of language etc. The actual patterning we get among the clades is probably due to a mix of founder effects and chance during the early spread and later perhaps certain dynasties or elites helping clades to mushroom and perhaps later migrations and elite dominance. The variance dating seems to suggest that the deep time story is an R1b1b2 one not an L21 per se.

Strange. I think sometimes the main remover of motivation may be that what they think L21 represents may not correspond with their identity. For example Neilthered's example of Danish guys who were perhaps not overjoyed with the idea of going to the bother of testing to prove they were British slaves or something. So, its probably worth regularly pointing out on boards and lists that we do not know what it means really and are speculating and that the out of the isles idea does not make any sense in light of the numbers in France and adjacent areas and in the light of archaelogical evidence.

It seems to relate to a prehistoric spread that was of huge importance in NW Europe. It seems to have been especially high among the Celts but that is not to say that it was spread by people who were already Celts. Judging by variance dating, when S21, S28, S116* and L21 spread, they were all very recent branches of the same R1b1b2 tree seperated by only a number of generations and so were essentially the one people probably speaking the one language. They also in most areas seem to have been thoroughly mixed together.

So, the differentialtion into Celtic and German would then have really been down to geography, networks of interaction and political considerations, not down to how many L21s or S28 there were in one area. So, I do not think what made a Celt a Celt or a German a German had anything to do with these clades otherwise how do we explain the high L21 in Ireland and parts of the isles and, the mix of L21, S28 and S116*etc in France, the dominance of S116* in Iberia, etc even though they were all Celtic spreaking.

So I am saying there do seem to be trends like a lot of L21 and S28 among Celts and S21 among Germans but they probably were never absolutes and what clades predominated in one area or other probably initially made no difference in terms of language etc. The actual patterning we get among the clades is probably due to a mix of founder effects and chance during the early spread and later perhaps certain dynasties or elites helping clades to mushroom and perhaps later migrations and elite dominance. The variance dating seems to suggest that the deep time story is an R1b1b2 one not an L21 per se.

The problem with all that, though it may be perfectly true, is that what sells tests is the chance to identify with a particular historical group, especially if that group has an adventurous, exciting, warlike reputation or at the very least an interesting one.

Testing merely to find out that one's y-dna ancestors were part of an undifferentiated conglomeration of hairy Neolithic drudges isn't likely to attract a lot of interest, I'm afraid.

That's why the initial discoveries of S21 (U106) and S28 (U152) were greeted with such enthusiasm back in 2005-2006. For better or worse, accurately or inaccurately, a few partisans (one of whom had a pecuniary interest in test sales) were able to sell those clades by depicting them as Germanic and "La Tene Celt" respectively, thereby whipping interest up to a fever pitch. Throw in a pinch of "Viking" here and there, and the case for those SNPs was made.

Had they been depicted some other way - as the progeny of Iberian cavemen or Neolithic farmers, say - I doubt they would have attracted so much attention and so many sales and so much comment on Rootsweb and other dna lists.

Its a pity people feel much more drawn to later times and especially to named peoples, some of which are really best known for their ability to bash other people. Says a lot about what impresses even 21st century people!

Thing is in much of NW Europe the monuments in the countryside dating to the Neoltithic and Early Bronze Age are far more impressive and interesting and suggestive of sophistication than in the later periods where monuments tend to be a lot less impressive and you really have to look at artefacts in museums to get a feel for the period. These later parts of the prehistoric period and the early historic periods tend to be militaristic and about better and better ways of bashing someone on the head and showing off status.

There is arguably a lot more to admire in the more balanced society implied in the Neolithic remains which often suggest sophistication, a more inclusive society (in ritual and burial) and one that was less concerned with individual showing off. Kind of puts me in mind of a very much smaller scale version of the very ritual orientated and spiritual theocratic society (that could also clearly handle itself) that existed in ancient Egypt.

The thing is too that people think that later phases like the beaker or corded ware cultures were some sort of master warrior race but in fact they had very little in their armoury that was better than the pre-beaker Neolithic people. Soft unalloyed copper knives and axes are not really an improvement on flint knives and stone axes and the main weapons for both were flint arrows and archery. The corded ware culture didnt even have the copper. Their stone battle axes were no real improvement when dealing with guys who had had flint axes already and surely archery made the hand to hand stuff little more than posturing. We know that in pre-beaker times fortified enclosures were subject to mass archer attacks between waring tribes so although the Neolithic people had sophistication of some sort they were also militarily prepared. Gimbutas etc have given people a false impression of the early Neolithic people.as some sort of soft touches but it seems to me they could handle themselves and at the same time had a greater level of sophistcation philosophically to boot.

Arguably, the later periods saw the loss in balance of the society towards crude indivualistic material showing off and militarism and that this continued through into the historic periods. So, I would feel that the early Neolithic period would be a period I would be happy about if that turned out to be the phase my ancestors arrived in.

I've been trying to recruit some others for testing, but it is apparently harder to give away L21 tests than I thought it was.

Strange. I think sometimes the main remover of motivation may be that what they think L21 represents may not correspond with their identity. For example Neilthered's example of Danish guys who were perhaps not overjoyed with the idea of going to the bother of testing to prove they were British slaves or something. So, its probably worth regularly pointing out on boards and lists that we do not know what it means really and are speculating and that the out of the isles idea does not make any sense in light of the numbers in France and adjacent areas and in the light of archaelogical evidence.

It seems to relate to a prehistoric spread that was of huge importance in NW Europe. It seems to have been especially high among the Celts but that is not to say that it was spread by people who were already Celts. Judging by variance dating, when S21, S28, S116* and L21 spread, they were all very recent branches of the same R1b1b2 tree seperated by only a number of generations and so were essentially the one people probably speaking the one language. They also in most areas seem to have been thoroughly mixed together.

So, the differentialtion into Celtic and German would then have really been down to geography, networks of interaction and political considerations, not down to how many L21s or S28 there were in one area. So, I do not think what made a Celt a Celt or a German a German had anything to do with these clades otherwise how do we explain the high L21 in Ireland and parts of the isles and, the mix of L21, S28 and S116*etc in France, the dominance of S116* in Iberia, etc even though they were all Celtic spreaking.

So I am saying there do seem to be trends like a lot of L21 and S28 among Celts and S21 among Germans but they probably were never absolutes and what clades predominated in one area or other probably initially made no difference in terms of language etc. The actual patterning we get among the clades is probably due to a mix of founder effects and chance during the early spread and later perhaps certain dynasties or elites helping clades to mushroom and perhaps later migrations and elite dominance. The variance dating seems to suggest that the deep time story is an R1b1b2 one not an L21 per se.

I absolutely agree with your analysis. Unfortunately Rich has a point as well. Most of the people who are interested in deep clade testing just want to be able to say their ancestor was a Celt/Germanic/Viking/Norman or whatever. Sadly those with an academic interest in the populating of Europe are few and far between.Perhaps we should try sell the idea of R1b as Indo-European invaders. "Find out which route your ancestors took as they laid waste to the primitive inhabitants of Europe."

"For better or worse, accurately or inaccurately, a few partisans (one of whom had a pecuniary interest in test sales) were able to sell those clades by depicting them as Germanic and "La Tene Celt" respectively, thereby whipping interest up to a fever pitch. Throw in a pinch of "Viking" here and there, and the case for those SNPs was made."

Man, keep telling the truth, it was all about sales and how much money they could make before reality set in. And don't forget his need to be the self-proclaimed hard-nosed scientist expert of all things genetic.

"One has to admire the job (snow job or otherwise) that was done to market those clades that had the good fortune to be discovered first.

Maybe if I put an image of Mel Gibson as William Wallace on the project web site, that would help? ;-)"

Hey, Mel Gibson as William Wallace might not be a bad idea. That was a great film.

I could write fake archaeological book about the conquest of the world by the beautiful L21 sons of light hyperborean master race from Atlantis who arrived in gleaming flint boats with sails made of eagle feathers before wiping out the tyranical I clade folk and saving the earth from their wicked 5000 year reich. Watch our Eric Von Danikan :0)