:
Would you prefer "This champion is so hard to use but also so powerful at high skill that when they're in a game, their player is the sole determiner of which team wins"?
Because the fact is that that's much worse. So deal with it. Gameplay needs to be balanced around high skill, because the variance inherent in gameplay of lower-skill players means that the balance doesn't actually matter as much for them.

> [{quoted}](name=Vacus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OdEOR6HX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-22T13:29:48.196+0000)
>
> Would you prefer "This champion is so hard to use but also so powerful at high skill that when they're in a game, their player is the sole determiner of which team wins"?
>
> Because the fact is that that's much worse. So deal with it. Gameplay needs to be balanced around high skill, because the variance inherent in gameplay of lower-skill players means that the balance doesn't actually matter as much for them.
The game should be balanced around high skill IN SOLO QUEUE, not professional tournaments.

:
Idk, wouldn't they aim to make all champs or at least majority viable in pro if they were catered to .01%, unlike this relatively stable meta?
In two words, git gud, these are just excuses.
>so now nobody gets to play it.
Stop acting like any champ is unplayable under masters(even there, otps of every champ exist).
Also which champ?
Play Dota, you will change your opinion about balancing around pros and also about how counterpicks matters if you believe in counterpick meta in LoL.

> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMonkeyCZ,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OdEOR6HX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-22T06:14:50.183+0000)
>
> Idk, wouldn't they aim to make all champs or at least majority viable in pro if they were catered to .01%, unlike this relatively stable meta?
>
> In two words, git gud, these are just excuses.
>
> Stop acting like any champ is unplayable under masters(even there, otps of every champ exist).
>
> Also which champ?
>
> Play Dota, you will change your opinion about balancing around pros and also about how counterpicks matters if you believe in counterpick meta in LoL.
I'm not sure what point you think is being made here because you seem to have no idea what's going on in this game. The game is mess because solo queue and pro player are so vastly different you're practically looking at two different games entirely and the balance team only cares about one of these things. Pro play.
They don't care whether or not the average player, the millions of people playing this game, are having fun. And it's a problem when the majority of people who play your game are giving you feedback saying they no longer enjoy the game due to how you balance it. They just want to keep making the pros happy.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-09T14:52:48.168+0000)
>
> You literally don't have to spend a single dime to play and enjoy it. Again, you're just being an elitists that hates seeing people enjoy playing a game you don't like. It's sad.
Never said you did? Cash grab games don't require you to spend money, but do you honestly think Riot would keep this game up permanently if there wasn't so much cosmetic potential? I don't give a shit if people like it or not, the truth is it's an entirely RNG based game. Games that take no skill and just require you to get lucky are doomed to fail, so enjoy your cash-grab while you can.

> [{quoted}](name=JustDonnyy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-10T01:35:58.020+0000)
>
> Never said you did? Cash grab games don't require you to spend money, but do you honestly think Riot would keep this game up permanently if there wasn't so much cosmetic potential? I don't give a shit if people like it or not, the truth is it's an entirely RNG based game. Games that take no skill and just require you to get lucky are doomed to fail, so enjoy your cash-grab while you can.
Cash Grab games involve manipulating people into spending money. Sure a game like "Candy Crush" is "free" but they intentionally throw in as many road blocks as possible that require you to spend money to get past or wait on arbitrary timers. League is as much of a "cash grab" as TFT.
What's the point of raging on the internet that other people are enjoying a game just because you don't like it?

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T12:47:21.536+0000)
>
> Does it matter when your entire argument is "I don't personally like this so nobody else will."? Because the argument of it being "too late" is already proven false given its popularity.
>
> Why are you such an elitist that you want a game to die because other people like playing it?
Because it's been proven many times by other people that's it's just an RNG based cash grab? Looks like you're one of the poor players that got sucked into it.

> [{quoted}](name=JustDonnyy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T20:07:48.698+0000)
>
> Because it's been proven many times by other people that's it's just an RNG based cash grab? Looks like you're one of the poor players that got sucked into it.
You literally don't have to spend a single dime to play and enjoy it. Again, you're just being an elitists that hates seeing people enjoy playing a game you don't like. It's sad.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-08-07T12:06:53.963+0000)
>
> People said the same thing about world of Warcraft
> People said the same thing about league of legends
> People said the same thing about fortnite
You're comparing entire games with hundreds of hours of content in them to a mini game that riot developed in a few months.

> [{quoted}](name=JustDonnyy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-08-07T19:49:08.110+0000)
>
> You're comparing entire games with hundreds of hours of content in them to a mini game that riot developed in a few months.
Does it matter when your entire argument is "I don't personally like this so nobody else will."? Because the argument of it being "too late" is already proven false given its popularity.
Why are you such an elitist that you want a game to die because other people like playing it?

:
It will. Riot got into the whole Auto Chess hype train a little late, and while they probably sparked it up for a few more months, it'll die out eventually. It's literally the most boring gaming experience I've ever had.

> [{quoted}](name=JustDonnyy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5uJRyLIR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-07T06:53:25.316+0000)
>
> It will. Riot got into the whole Auto Chess hype train a little late, and while they probably sparked it up for a few more months, it'll die out eventually. It's literally the most boring gaming experience I've ever had.
People said the same thing about world of Warcraft
People said the same thing about league of legends
People said the same thing about fortnite

> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4td1l3ks,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-08-02T08:15:24.420+0000)
>
> when is the wedding?
Interesting situation. He wants to buy us a house. He thinks we should postpone marriage so that if something happens to him I don't inherent the debt. I think that's silly and he's overthinking things.

> [{quoted}](name=The Stripy Bag,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PiGzXNJm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-31T08:50:45.811+0000)
>
> You missed the no part of the line and don't worry Riot balance team already took care of the resurrections.Good meme though.
That’s the joke

Runes sucked. New players had to choose between investing in runes and characters which really isn't justifiable at all. There was no "diversity" in runes as 99% of the playerbase was copy/pasting their rune pages based on what the pros did. There's almost no difference in how the game is played if we swapped back to the old rune system/mastery system.

First thing they need to do is handle CDR. There's no reason why every build on every champion in every lane should have 40% CDR by the 6 minute mark (yes I'm being hyperbolic). If you wanted that CDR you hard to build for it and that depended on your champion. Now you just get handed free CDR for simply installing the client.

> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMonkeyCZ,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=nmbV2k6L,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-10T08:35:23.316+0000)
>
> You played in S3? Same thing.
Not even remotely close.

People who complain aren’t the ones buying them. People complain because Riot knows that Ezreal, Lux, and Ahri skins always sell well so they justify giving those characters 1-2 skins a year while other characters go years without anything. It’s a visible sign they do not care about the community. They only care about your wallet.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-05T06:55:32.752+0000)
>
> And as I’ve said the amount of luck influencing the game mode is exaggerated. He didn’t even attempt to counter that point.
I don't think it's overly exaggerated. I'm pretty sure that it's roughly as random as Nexus Blitz but there's fewer chances to influence how much said randomness affects your game in TFT.
Sure, you can pick which champs to go for based on what others are building and your rolls. But that only goes so far if your opponents got the rolls they needed before you did. In Nexus Blitz, there's actual gameplay you can use to deal with a big advantage or disadvantage. TFT doesn't really give you that option without significant luck, even though said luck is affected by your HP.
Positioning champions/items in TFT is about the same as buying items in Nexus Blitz. But Nexus Blitz still lets you play the game rather than hope the AI doesn't screw you over for some stupid reason.
Nexus Blitz still had random gameplay events that could greatly hamper your team if the wrong ones happened early. No different from being unable to do anything with your champion rolls in TFT. But in Blitz you could still outplay even from a disadvantaged state. You simply don't have that in TFT.

> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T07:25:56.362+0000)
>
> I don't think it's overly exaggerated. I'm pretty sure that it's roughly as random as Nexus Blitz but there's fewer chances to influence how much said randomness affects your game in TFT.
>
> Sure, you can pick which champs to go for based on what others are building and your rolls. But that only goes so far if your opponents got the rolls they needed before you did. In Nexus Blitz, there's actual gameplay you can use to deal with a big advantage or disadvantage. TFT doesn't really give you that option without significant luck, even though said luck is affected by your HP.
>
> Positioning champions/items in TFT is about the same as buying items in Nexus Blitz. But Nexus Blitz still lets you play the game rather than hope the AI doesn't screw you over for some stupid reason.
>
> Nexus Blitz still had random gameplay events that could greatly hamper your team if the wrong ones happened early. No different from being unable to do anything with your champion rolls in TFT. But in Blitz you could still outplay even from a disadvantaged state. You simply don't have that in TFT.
People make similar arguments against card games. That’s it’s mostly down to luck. But this isn’t true. It’s mainly an argument used by people who don’t understand the game or people who are bad at it.
Sure there are moments where you can get screwed or your opponent can seem blessed. But these are the exception. Most games, with two equally skilled opponents, comes down to deck building and mistakes made while playing the game. Because even if you’re equally skilled you’re still prone to making mistakes.
The vast majority of games your opponents are on an equal playing field as you. So it really does come down to those minor decisions made each turn snowballing into the Endgame.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T05:44:12.514+0000)
>
> You’re literally acknowledging that skill is an important factor
He said luck trumps skill when comparing to two equally skilled individuals.
I'm not inclined to disagree with him.

> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-05T05:47:47.963+0000)
>
> He said luck trumps skill when comparing to two equally skilled individuals.
>
> I'm not inclined to disagree with him.
And as I’ve said the amount of luck influencing the game mode is exaggerated. He didn’t even attempt to counter that point.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T05:44:12.514+0000)
>
> You’re literally acknowledging that skill is an important factor
Skill is always an important factor, though in this I'd say knowledge, not "skill". But if you go to even skills guess what? Luck becomes WAY more important than skill, and that's a problem for ranked no matter how you try to spin it in your own little world.
When you get into a tournament with top players with the same knowledge (which is skill in this game) then you're rolling a dice to see who wins, because who wins is luck at that point. They both know their stuff so well that the only factor left is luck because there is a LOT of it in this game. Too much for skill to matter when you talk competitive play. At that point "competitive" becomes pointless.
It's clear you've never competed in E-Sports before.

> [{quoted}](name=Beerstein,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T05:47:03.431+0000)
>
> Skill is always an important factor, though in this I'd say knowledge, not "skill". But if you go to even skills guess what? Luck becomes WAY more important than skill, and that's a problem for ranked no matter how you try to spin it in your own little world.
>
> When you get into a tournament with top players with the same knowledge (which is skill in this game) then you're rolling a dice to see who wins, because who wins is luck at that point. They both know their stuff so well that the only factor left is luck because there is a LOT of it in this game. Too much for skill to matter when you talk competitive play. At that point "competitive" becomes pointless.
>
> It's clear you've never competed in E-Sports before.
Comparing them to dice rolls is false equivalence as it fails to acknowledge your ability to make impactful decisions over the course of the game. And it’s sad you choose to blame luck to compensate for your lack of skill when it comes to making these decisions.

:
Items are important and anyone who says otherwise has clearly not played too many games. On top of early 3-star units, it's the guys who get to build 6 hourglasses or 4 rageblades in their comp who tend to win or make it to late game. And I've been subject to the hourglass BS.
There is strategy in going after units that aren't being as highly contested or positioning, but RNG currently plays the biggest role in the game mode and it needs to be tuned accordingly.

> [{quoted}](name=Namenloses Licht,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-05T05:24:42.341+0000)
>
> Items are important and anyone who says otherwise has clearly not played too many games. On top of early 3-star units, it's the guys who get to build 6 hourglasses or 4 rageblades in their comp who tend to win or make it to late game. And I've been subject to the hourglass BS.
>
> There is strategy in going after units that aren't being as highly contested or positioning, but RNG currently plays the biggest role in the game mode and it needs to be tuned accordingly.
Most of the strategy is going after powerful characters that others aren’t while keeping in mind to get comp buffs that synergize with each other.

> [{quoted}](name=Beerstein,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sIcteeL5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-05T04:20:41.479+0000)
>
> So you beat lucky people that suck. Good luck when you end up playing people of equal skill that get lucky...Yep, ranked ready confirmed. lol.
You’re literally acknowledging that skill is an important factor

:
> [{quoted}](name=jocomotion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BrWEFBsf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-17T00:29:44.961+0000)
>
> _but he didn’t take CS_
>
> Doesn’t the dude go spelltheifs? He literally can’t take CS without being punished for it. Maybe if his laner leaves without pushing the lane, but if THATS ban able than I too should go down.
>
> If you gotta ban a man at least give a legit reason
He doesn't have a duo, he doesn't have consent from his team, let alone not even telling his team he's gonna do it.
He makes the game unfun for his teammates, who he should be cooperating with.
Both of which are bannable.
Basically everyone in high elo/everyone he plays with thinks he ruins the game and should be banned, so clearly he didn't get their consent to practice his off meta strategy on to them, affecting the whole game in a negative way.

> [{quoted}](name=TacoComes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BrWEFBsf,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-06-22T03:14:24.416+0000)
>
> He doesn't have a duo, he doesn't have consent from his team, let alone not even telling his team he's gonna do it.
> He makes the game unfun for his teammates, who he should be cooperating with.
> Both of which are bannable.
>
> Basically everyone in high elo/everyone he plays with thinks he ruins the game and should be banned, so clearly he didn't get their consent to practice his off meta strategy on to them, affecting the whole game in a negative way.
Nunu player realizes by taking Nunu support with smite he can effectively counter jungle the enemy and complete take the enemy jungler out of the game. A Rioted noted how impressive his winrate was going this route. He would communicate with his team.
He was banned for not having “consent” which is complete bullsht and you know it.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/FrILlWp7-14-day-ban-because-playing-nunu-support-with-smite-is-stealing-other-peoples-roles
Nubrac was banned because NB3 begged his Riot friend for it.

Long time ago when Yorick’s ultimate created a ghost of an ally and if they died they temporarily controlled the ghost.
Yorick would only ever ult himself and would never put it on the vayne vs a dive the carry comp.
We asked Yorick why he wasn’t ilting Vayne. His response....
“For the damage”

> [{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2019-07-03T00:15:08.096+0000)
>
> Who are these people??? Who is Lyte who is Nurac wthhh
Lyte was a previous Riot employee who was infamous for how he tried to deal with toxicity in the game.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-02T05:22:57.539+0000)
>
> “Post impassionately, they say you don’t care.
> Post nothing, they say you ignore.
> Post with passion, you incite trolls.
> Posting fluff, you say nonsense.
> Post what little facts you have, they whittle down with rationale.
> There is no win.
> There is only slow degradation.
> Take note. It is the first and only time you’ll see someone in my position make that position.
> You can be me when I’m gone.”
> -Tseric
>Post what little facts you have, they whittle down with rationale.
Hold up, this is not how that works.
Rationale is a set of reasons or logical basis for a course of action or belief. So if someone beats you in a argument using that then the discussion is by all means healthy, logical and reasonable discussion always will be so.
Tseric, whoever that may be, is hella clueless if he believes that´s basis for degradation.

> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-07-02T16:46:23.053+0000)
>
> Hold up, this is not how that works.
>
> Rationale is a set of reasons or logical basis for a course of action or belief. So if someone beats you in a argument using that then the discussion is by all means healthy, logical and reasonable discussion always will be so.
>
> Tseric, whoever that may be, is hella clueless if he believes that´s basis for degradation.
Tseric was an infamous blue poster (Blizzard's equivalent to Riot red posters) who was supposed to be dealing with forum trolls and handled the situation as poorly as possible.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-07-02T05:36:18.478+0000)
>
> Because a game is first and foremost supposed to be an enjoyable experience and a toxic community completely destroys that experience.
You peoples are so out of this world, it's like football players getting a red card because after getting STABBED by his teammate he screamed at the attacker.
So out of this world, Riot manipulated you all in being missionaries of a wicked idea.
You call everything that doesn't agree with you toxic, you all repeat the same thing it's almost like you take everything they say for granted without using your own brain.
I wanted to just say that i am not a part of this.
Have a nice day you all!

> [{quoted}](name=Acekill3r,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-07-02T10:06:39.363+0000)
>
> You peoples are so out of this world, it's like football players getting a red card because after getting STABBED by his teammate he screamed at the attacker.
> So out of this world, Riot manipulated you all in being missionaries of a wicked idea.
> You call everything that doesn't agree with you toxic, you all repeat the same thing it's almost like you take everything they say for granted without using your own brain.
>
> I wanted to just say that i am not a part of this.
> Have a nice day you all!
I like how instead of providing any kind of counter argument you just go for personal attacks.

:
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-07-02T05:36:18.478+0000)
>
> Because a game is first and foremost supposed to be an enjoyable experience and a toxic community completely destroys that experience.
Nah, you're in control of your feelings and the things you take personally. In the last month I think I've experienced a handful of actual intentional feeders. The real problem with this game is the unbalanced nightmare, the russian roulette ranked queues, especially if you're a top main, constantly asking yourself "is that their ADC? Or are they taking it top... do I need to play off meta for this? No... no... just play your main, it's definitely not their top.... oh... garen... I guess I'll get my shit pushed in for 15 minutes because his armor scales so hard I'm just slapping him with a pool noodle... great..."
The unbalanced hellscape that is the rift creates a LOT of the toxicity you're complaining about. People are locked into a game with 9 other people that they can't leave no matter what without risking a ban. The whole game breeds "toxicity", what could have been an "enjoyable" 30 minutes turns into a fucking nightmare when velk off-meta adcs and completely deletes your adc, support and jungler at level 6 and the spiral begins. 100? 200? 500? 1000 games like that is enough to make anyone "toxic"
Seriously. League is like being forced to chaperone a 10 year old kid's birthday party. There's 9 kids running around screaming their heads off, they're throwing cake everywhere, all over your house, they're breaking shit, they're completely trashing the place, but you can't hit them, you'd to to jail for hitting a minor. You can't leave, you'd go to jail for child neglect. You're stuck there... there is no escape.... so you bottle it up.
Now imagine it's your job and you can't quit because the economy is so fucked if you quit you'll never find another job, you're stuck there looking after 10 year old little shits, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 365 days a year.
One day they're going to read about that guy driving his car into an orphanage. That's league. A prison you can't escape without getting banned. A prison you can't vent in without getting banned or a 10-25 game chat restriction.
GG bruh

> [{quoted}](name=CarpeConundrum,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-07-02T05:45:17.498+0000)
>
> Nah, you're in control of your feelings and the things you take personally.
What’s even the point of making this bad argument if you’re just going to immediately contradict yourself and argue that the balance is making you mad when by your own argument you’re choosing to be mad about it?

:
I don't understand why people give a shit about toxicity in a game with so many balance issues. Why is so much effort put into dealing with "toxicity" and relatively zero effort is put into dealing with the balance issues.

> [{quoted}](name=CarpeConundrum,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Kt12rR7A,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-02T05:34:35.844+0000)
>
> I don't understand why people give a shit about toxicity in a game with so many balance issues. Why is so much effort put into dealing with "toxicity" and relatively zero effort is put into dealing with the balance issues.
Because a game is first and foremost supposed to be an enjoyable experience and a toxic community completely destroys that experience.

“Post impassionately, they say you don’t care.
Post nothing, they say you ignore.
Post with passion, you incite trolls.
Posting fluff, you say nonsense.
Post what little facts you have, they whittle down with rationale.
There is no win.
There is only slow degradation.
Take note. It is the first and only time you’ll see someone in my position make that position.
You can be me when I’m gone.”
-Tseric

:
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=in2pogJc,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-07-02T04:07:48.251+0000)
>
> .
>
> this is so demonstrably false that I don't even know where to begin.
Your decisions in TFT are heavily gated by your luck.
Having a champion you're inexperienced with can be compensated for with mechanical skill.
Do I really need to explain that any further or do you not know where to begin because I've already closed off all of your avenues for argument?

> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=in2pogJc,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-02T04:16:08.467+0000)
>
> Your decisions in TFT are heavily gated by your luck.
>
> Having a champion you're inexperienced with can be compensated for with mechanical skill.
>
> Do I really need to explain that any further or do you not know where to begin because I've already closed off all of your avenues for argument?
I think a good way of looking at it is the start of an ARAM match is one major dice roll where as TFT is many small dice rolls over a long period of time.
I can see somebody going early assassins and prioritize characters that are resistant to that strat and position my team to make them less vulnerable.