Dwight, your personal feelings toward the effectiveness of Ultra None, aside, this poor car will never become a "Museum"
piece, as true museums (like the national Automobile Museum, in Reno) are interested in displaying original artifacts (or,
items in as-original-as-possible condition, like that of re-assembled pottery shards, etc).

In its as-unearthed condition, it could have been a centerpiece of the N.A.M.'s collection, similar to that of the as-raced
1909 Thomas Flyer, which won the Around The World Race and which is displayed in a nice diorama, there.

Once Ultra F-Up is done doing whatever-it-wants to do with the remains of the car, it will become essentially worthless as
representing any historical artifact.

How interesting would the Bonnie & Clyde Death Car be, if it were to have been RESTORED (which, from it's as-bullet-
riddled condition, COULD have been restored, to as-new condition)???

Ultra-Bungle has attempted to 'restore' (what a joke!) the car, for its own professional gain, in contradiction to what the
car truly represented, in its REAL "original" as-unearthed condition.

Anyone who saw the car, in person, in Tulsa , was truly emotionally affected by the car's appearance.

It would have been a HUGE 'draw', as a museum attraction.

With the proper lighting and isolated diorama display, in its own display room, its appearance and visual
effect, from all its unique colors and textures, and its physical condition, would have been overpowering
to the senses. Everything around the car should be in darkness, with the car alone being directly
spot-lighted.

Maybe Clive, or someone, could post some pics of the car, as displayed in Tulsa, on this thread (hopefully, with my own un-real rear-view of the car, to demonstrate what I'm trying to say, here).

I don't see how it could be said better Neil. I was there and I know that feeling you describe. How can the owner get any satisfaction in what has happened to Miss Belvie? To bad they did not ever experience that feeling, maybe she would still have her dignity...............MO

d500neil - 2008-10-23 7:15 PM Dwight, your personal feelings toward the effectiveness of Ultra None, aside, this poor car will never become a "Museum" piece, as true museums (like the national Automobile Museum, in Reno) are interested in displaying original artifacts (or, items in as-original-as-possible condition, like that of re-assembled pottery shards, etc). In its as-unearthed condition, it could have been a centerpiece of the N.A.M.'s collection, similar to that of the as-raced 1909 Thomas Flyer, which won the Around The World Race and which is displayed in a nice diorama, there. Once Ultra F-Up is done doing whatever-it-wants to do with the remains of the car, it will become essentially worthless as representing any historical artifact. How interesting would the Bonnie & Clyde Death Car be, if it were to have been RESTORED (which, from it's as-bullet- riddled condition, COULD have been restored, to as-new condition)??? Ultra-Bungle has attempted to 'restore' (what a joke!) the car, for its own professional gain, in contradiction to what the car truly represented, in its REAL "original" as-unearthed condition. Anyone who saw the car, in person, in Tulsa , was truly emotionally affected by the car's appearance. It would have been a HUGE 'draw', as a museum attraction. With the proper lighting and isolated diorama display, in its own display room, its appearance and visual effect, from all its unique colors and textures, and its physical condition, would have been overpowering to the senses. Everything around the car should be in darkness, with the car alone being directly spot-lighted. Maybe Clive, or someone, could post some pics of the car, as displayed in Tulsa, on this thread (hopefully, with my own un-real rear-view of the car, to demonstrate what I'm trying to say, here).

I am allitle confused here. Have you ever used Ultra 1? Have you ever met Dwight? Reading back through the history, it doesn't look like it. How can you make statements like that?

I am allitle confused here. Reading back through the history, How can you make statements like that?

.

Now I forgot why I came here today

See there is the Problem... I suggest you Read the Posts Again,, NO-ONE is saying the Product Doesn,t Work...

What is being said is , ULTRA are USING Miss Belvedere to Promote their Product at the Expense of Destroying A Piece of American History which will NEVER be Duplicated.. We where There in Tulsa to See It, So are talking Fact...
Why didn,t Ultra go pull a Old Car from Any Yard and use their Product on it.???? May it was because no -one would hardly pay attention, But by touching a piece of Irreplacable History , The world is Watching.. BUT all they are doing by attempting to Clean and Replace parts on Miss Belvedere is to Destroy History.. The Plymouth is a 1 of 1, Should be in a Museum as it was Pulled from the Tomb..

Write it and shout anyway you want,, It is a Fact that the Plymouth is now just another car being partly restored.. And it,s Value has been Halved.. Remember they are changing the Frame, Seats and Probably all the running Gear... When finished the Stainless will be all that,s Original.

Their Product is to remove RUST.. Miss Belverdere is only held together by RUST..

I am allitle confused here. Reading back through the history, How can you make statements like that?

.

Now I forgot why I came here today

See there is the Problem... I suggest you Read the Posts Again,, NO-ONE is saying the Product Doesn,t Work... What is being said is , ULTRA are USING Miss Belvedere to Promote their Product at the Expense of Destroying A Piece of American History which will NEVER be Duplicated.. We where There in Tulsa to See It, So are talking Fact... Why didn,t Ultra go pull a Old Car from Any Yard and use their Product on it.???? May it was because no -one would hardly pay attention, But by touching a piece of Irreplacable History , The world is Watching.. BUT all they are doing by attempting to Clean and Replace parts on Miss Belvedere is to Destroy History.. The Plymouth is a 1 of 1, Should be in a Museum as it was Pulled from the Tomb.. Write it and shout anyway you want,, It is a Fact that the Plymouth is now just another car being partly restored.. And it,s Value has been Halved.. Remember they are changing the Frame, Seats and Probably all the running Gear... When finished the Stainless will be all that,s Original. Their Product is to remove RUST.. Miss Belverdere is only held together by RUST.. Oh , and welcome to the Forwardlook Forum,,

That's not my impression. Being a new guy here, he left hints that the product doesn't work, the car is in poor hands, all sorts of twisted messages. I don't think that is right. I saw no indication this guy is an authority on the car or the product. Don't you think it was the true owner of the cars decision? I believe the owner has the right, don't they? I just like to do what is fair and right for all. I have not read that anywhere so far. So I personally take exception to his comments. But from I can see, it doesn't seem matter what I think.

Yes Chris, everyone is intitled to an opinion . Thing is- probably 95 out of 100 opinions is that Miss Belvie should not have been altered from how she came out of the tomb. This is the only car like it in the world. History has been changed by someone who was only interested in promoting themselves and their product. It's just that some express their outrage more than others. To late to do anything about it now except to remind Dwight how selfish he was. His product may be good, but it doesn't work miricles........................MO

I was not in Tulsa for the unveiling (I watched on-line),however,I did have an opportunity to see her in Dwight's shop.
She is a sight to behold,regardless.Not to mention the feeling you get looking at her.
Neil,have you met Dwight personally?? If not,I would suggest you set your opinions aside and go to Hackettstown,NJ and visit him and Miss B.
Maybe that would change your opinion of him and the car.It is a small shop where you can have a one-on-one with both Dwight and the car.
Dwight is helping--on the behalf of the winning owner's family-- to preserve what's left of a famous 1957 Plymouth for all of of us to enjoy.
Without treatment,she would continue rusting and crumble into pieces in no time after being exposed to fresh air,IMO.
The owner's family is thinking of her best interest.Dwight is only doing as he was asked to do.
Anybody who pulled a car out of a lake would have it towed to the scrap heap.
Not this one.Too much history behind it despite her current condition.
She is getting a royal treatment to avoid any further decomposition--even if that may require replacing parts-- so be it.
Neil,if you want to save the original 303 Poly ,you go down there and work on it to free it up.Dwight would love to see you do that since he is a one man show after all.

Dwight, from your description of him, I would apparently love to have an intimate relationship with a businessman who
is so short-sighted and unaware of historical importance, and uncaring about preserving a unique automotive artifact
that he would effectively tomb-raid it, to try to promote himself, and his product, for ONLY his personal gain.

Here Neil!
Now, lookey here what I found for you! Now, you can go DIRECTLY to Ultra One's web site/forums, and post to EVERYONE there, that Ultra Nun couldn't eliminate rust off of 904 stainless,,,,,!
Dwight is dumber than a wad of snot, when it comes to him/Hobby/others', careless 'touch' of, how do you say it, 'prized/valuable artifact' such as Ms Belvy,,,,!

Convince all on 'that' web site, just like you are doing on 'this' web site, of Dwight's immature, bas***dizing, (if there is such a word) of such a valuable Plymouth!!!

Just think, the owner/winner of Ms belvy just might be 'cruising' Ultra Nun's site/forums, and you just may convince HIM, of his error, ways, and he might contact YOU, Neil, for information/advice. Now, THAT would make you happy, wouldn't it?!

Y'know, when I was there Neil. There was ONLY 3 MoPars in the whole place! Ms Belvy, the '57 parts or frame car, and the Dodge that I rode in, to get there.
EVERYTHING else was LINCOLN. The Continentals, like in the TV series "Cannon" There was a whole slew of 'em! Ranging from a rusted parts car, to a B-J quality, to a nice convt conversion, to a EVERY option avlaible, and everything inbetween!
You think Neil, since, there are so many 'F0rds' there, Dwight might be anti 'Chrysler' and is,,,,, on purposely,,,, destroying a lowly Plymouth?
Why don't you ask him?!

Hell, as good as you say you are, in investigating, you might turn up a 'juicy' story!!

Rick; it's too late now....there is something of the Greek Tragedy (or, at least, of O. Henry) involved in this whole story, from its careless (OK: naive) internment---- should have been welded-up in a steel container, so that it could have been DRIVEN out of its container, in 2007 (wouldn't THAT have been spectacular?) to its ultimate destruction, at the hands of a 'restorer', for self promotion.

Geeze, Neil, from the beginning one would have thought that this was your personal event and that you should have called all of the shots and made all of the arrangements from the beginning, even though you were just another car enthusiast like the rest of us. And now you are internalizing some sort of grief over the fate of this ill-conceived and executed event to the point that you sound as if you have lost all contact with reality. Give it a rest, man, nothing (especially a rusted beyond repair Plymouth) is worth your outrage!! Wouldn't you much rather find an unrusted, low mile gem in a barn than than to go bonko over this piece of crap? Professional help may be in order!!

This may not be the place for it, but I have to get this off my chest.

It's disheartening to see such an attitude displayed. Some apparently are very strongly opinionated, right or wrong. My personal opinion doesn't seem to matter. I don't belong to the click, nor do I want too.

I have seen all those pictures many times already. As an avid Mopar guy, I have been following the car for the last 3 years, even in the planning of the unearthing. I was in Tulsa and saw where the car was burried. Did I go to Tulsa for the unearthing? No. I have other committments I need to meet.

It seems to me I read somewhere the actual owners of the car, an elderly woman as I recall, looked up Ultra1 and contacted them to give the car a try. I have not seen any published PR on Ultra1 promoting the product with the car. So far, all I have seen even remotely refering to U1 and the car has been right here, and all negitive.

With all due respect, I think the few who are critizing don't have any facts. They have made them up in their heads from what I read and across several means of communication. Frankly they ought to stick a sock in it. I am not one for Keyboard Bullys, they seem to be flocking on this subject. Come to think of it, in skimming the whole forum, you seem to have allot of them here.

Makes me wonder if my membership here is worth it. But you don't seem to care because you have yourselves. All it does is confirm what i have read on numerous other mopar forums about Forward Look. Why did Diva talk me into this place?

I'm hardly a graybeard, around here, registering in 3/05, but, that's still 3.5 years ago.

Jim Helm goes back to 4.5 years ago.

The Plymouth goes back to 1957, and, its fate has been discussed on this website's message boards since at least
12/23/99 (which is the earliest Archive-referenced message, on the subject of the Buried Plymouth ).

The first 'recorded' thread-message (12/23/99) was from "Tony", and he said/asked: "I'm looking for info a the 1957 Plymouth that was
buried in Texas or Oklahoma in a time capsule. It was buried in 1957 and is going to be dug up in 2007. What town is it
located in and does anyone know of a website for more info. Thanks."

John Zastrow responded on 12/25/99: "There is a very good web page on the '57, buried in Oklahoma, right here on the
Forwardlook site."

Dave Stragand, our Webmaster (aka: Fearless Leader), responded, on 12/30/99: "That's correct, thanks to Jim Benjaminson,
for the permission to reprint it [the basic information on the car's burial, as posted on our Home page]."

Our website also ran a "Countdown" calendar to 6/15/07, and had various site references to the Tulsarama festivities.

This message board was created in 2005, in order to discuss the car's fate, and our arranging to be there, for the Blessed
Event.

About 50 members made the Pilgrimage to Tulsa, from around the world, and, I'll bet none of them regrets making the
necessary sacrifices to BE there. The Plymouth Owners Club held their national meet there, and the Christine Owners club
was also present.

Those of us who were there have become emotionally attached to the car, and to the celebrations which occurred in Tulsa,
in June, 2007.

Some people, who were NOT at Tulsa, for varying reasons, have taken issue with the fervency of the attendees' positions
regarding the preservation of the car, as being a unique, irreplaceable historical artifact.

This particular message board was created in order to discuss that car's fate.

Once you enter this website, you are apparently doomed never to be able to leave it; "Diva" must have been correct,
in that regard.

If you wish to discuss any OTHER 1955 -1961 MoPar products, this website has many fine individualized message boards
where the subject of the Buried Plymouth will NEVER come-up.

Chris, if your sole purpose is to claim how right you are in defending what is being done to Miss Bslvie, I don't think you will be very successful. You think it is just a click that believes she should have been preserved as she came out of the tomb? you should go back and read all the posts by people who were there. It's commendable that you wish to defend your friend Dwight, but don't expect many converts. Hope you will join in on other discussions cause finned Mopars is something we all have in common.....................MO

Yeah, I can still remember calling this car back 2 1/2 years ago...First thing when everybody was talking like it was gonna come out of the ground in pristine shape, I said it was gonna be a rusted POS and Got bashed for it.......Keyboard bully's don't bother me...I give as good as I get..Can't stand the heat, get out the kitchen...

Chris, if that's the way you feel, then this just might NOT be the place for you, but let me be the first one to tell you...

If your looking for a forum ON LINE that DOESN'T do a certain amount of what goes on here, then your better off not getting on line at all.....Dude, it happens at all sites....I know, cause I'm a member at about four other club's..

I didn't go to this event even though it was less than a day's drive away. Things like that turn me off and , like dukeboy, I was convinced that the car would be destroyed when unearthed. But apparently some folks who got deeply involved in this thing, especially Neil, just can't let it go. I know of cars that have sat in junkyards for 50 years that are in better shape than this one, but if somehow the car has the ability to penetrate the mind and soul of those who see it, so be it. But I must ask: ever heard of an exorcist??

Now wait a minute Clive--you know that I haven't got any "mates" up on this part of the site! (Actually, I probably don't have any mates on any part of this site). So I didn't do it!! My posts here have been more bland than normal, and I don't have anything pro or con on the car or the "salvation attempt". This is Neil's playground--more power to him!!

HMmmmmmmmmm... 2 Newbies , No Profile Locations... Love to Kick Real Easy... is this ANOTHER of SH,s Sick Jokes.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OF COURSE it's Hobby again, Cleve...
The guy fits the bill as a self-absorbed egomaniac who LOVES to stir the pot.

What's the easiest way to know when Hobby has been able to infiltrate the site? That's simple...
If there's someone who WANTS to talk about Hobby, it's usually HOBBY himself.

(After all, most everyone else would rather let him slither back into the recesses of history.)

Over the years, this guy has led more lives than Shirley Maclaine...
62chrysler / 59 Saratoga / 59Saratogaa (Poor Joe V.) / BigButtMopar / Faahaulic / (The infamous) LARS / Steve880
And who could forget unibody_wide_fins??? Hubba Hubba! LMAO!

To me, it's blatantly OBVIOUS that FinFender is none other than our old buddy's multiple personality disorder. (I'm also convinced there are still more Hobby creations floating around on this board, too.)

Has he "ruined" the site? Not a chance. It takes more than one jackass to plow a field this large.
Meanwhile, he has managed to hurt some feelings along the way... and for that he should still be ashamed.

In the end, though... Hobby is like a rash. Leave it alone, and it will go away.
However, if you continue to scratch the inflamed area, you could be dealing with a major pain in the ass.

He feeds off this kind of attention... and it's my pleasure to turn over the rocks and watch him scurry back out of the light whenever possible.

Dwight, if you are for real, perhaps you could tell us something about yourself, your location, your cars, and your
history in the FWDLK world; do you belong to any clubs, organizations, or have you attended any national meets, etc?

How about posting some pics of your car(s), and yourself, on the Member's Rides board?

We've probably got several members who would be happy to meet with you and help you with your FWDLK projects.

Dwight, if you are for real, perhaps you could tell us something about yourself, your location, your cars, and your
history in the FWDLK world; do you belong to any clubs, organizations, or have you attended any national meets, etc?

How about posting some pics of your car(s), and yourself, on the Member's Rides board?

We've probably got several members who would be happy to meet with you and help you with your FWDLK projects.

Same PERSON.............. I had Real Suspisions Weeks Ago,, But thought i was becoming Nathan ( LOL) as in being Detective.. I Now wish i had mentioned this Earlier...........

"Canuckfins" a.k.a. The "OTHER Dwight" (or perhaps, Dwight-lite) is NOT Steve Hobby.... BUT it IS one of his flying monkeys from "mopar fins dot com". Leaburn Patey is also active over on "C Body Drydock"... The guy's name over there is CBARGE... I'm posting a picture of him below.

As it turns out, "DeSotoDiva" isn't Hobby either... In fact, "Diva" isn't even a female at all. "She" is actually Matt Aker (MoParMatt - also from moparfins dot com and C Body Drydock)... As far as "her" um... relationship with FinFender, I mean STEVE HOBBY... who knows just how close they are? I don't think I even WANT to know. For a look at this guy (who apparently likes to pretend he's a girl):

And I KNOW you've seen this thread, too!
"FinFender" was last logged on just yesterday (10/30)... but oddly, didn't post anything. Hmmm....

I'm guessing that you've chosen to take a breather from posting while you craft some kind of bullsh!t alibi. We won't see you back on here until you can artfully deny everything, right?

Meanwhile, "DeSotoDiva" hasn't bothered to log on since October 14th...
And "Canuckfins" (the "other" Dwight) was last online on October 27th...

"Diva" and "Dwight" have likely been sucked into this sick game by a guy they trust as a friend. (Are they truly unaware of the sh!t-storm than can ensue once you allow Hobby to gain a foot-hold?)

Beware Leaburn Patey and Matt Aker... Participating in Hobby's shenanigans will eventually destroy your character one way or another. Tick-Tock-Tick-Tock... The guy is a time-bomb - and y'all are standing WAY too close!

Nathan is right. It only took me like 10 minutes on Google to be able to track down all of the clues and make all the connections (below) myself. It's all publically viewable, if you want to check it out for yourselves as well - just get to googl'in'.

I'm really disappointed that he's still playing these games. When was that, like 3 years ago? Even more disappointing is that he has enlisted the moderators from his own forum to attempt to instigate trouble here. How deceitful, embarassing, and just plain shameful is that? I had hoped he would be more mature than to stoop to that kind of level. It's time for him to just move on already - we all left this behind years ago.

Thanks DAVE for Suspending ALL the Dodgy Accounts,, When i replied to FinFender a while Back to Explain No-one was saying Ultra,s Product didn,t work , And members where saying it was Wrong to attempt to Restore Miss Belv, FinFender just wouldn,t have it and wanted to keep Arguing.. By this Time it was Plain to See who was Behind it all ,, I Should have Shouted Earlier and Not waited for the NAT-MAN to say it as it Is.. Hopefully this is the End to it..... BUT i doubt it.... The rumour is, It is the Only way the Guy Gets Off.. !!!!!

Last time i checked you 2 were Kissing Cousins.. Actually Agreeing on Stuff.. Personally i felt Sick as i thought the Whole Forwardlook Website would fall apart with you 2 onside... Please don,t say the Truce has been called Off...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO

OK, Neil, if you want me to continue "stirring the pot", just keep it up. I typically find your "rants" merely amusing--and there are a lot of them! 4462 posts at last count, far more than anyone else on this site!Seems to me that you may need a good dose of "Miss Belvedere detoxification". You want to throw your opinions and guesses out as fact without challenge in just about every thread on this site--sooner or later, some are going to get fully fed up with it. If stirring the pot is disagreeing with you, I guess I am guilty as charged. But somehow I don't think I'm the only one??

I don't know how you guys can be here so long and STILL not realize we have a whole site full of "Pot Stirrers". They're full of something else too I think.

I want to know:
A. Why some guys have so much time to do a lot of Googleing.
B. What search you were doing to come up with all the info Dave and Nate came up with.

If that is definitive results in Daves post, we now finally put LARS in the Hobby category with out question? We all knew it, but no one's ever proved it before.

Mike

Yeah, Mike...

There ARE plenty of pot-stirrers here. That's for sure.
Meanwhile, I've learned that most of them are harmless and sometimes (to be quite honest) pretty fun.
Hobby (et al) has proven to be the only real malicious or truly threatening character we have encountered.

As far as the Google-ing questions:
A) I'm fortunate enough to have a job that allows plenty of time on the computer. Otherwise I'd have to take vacation during Hobby-hunting season.
B) If we told you, we'd have to kill you! (LOL)

The only comment that I've made, which was incorrect (you can look it up) about a subject, was about your former
convertible, which just happens to have been made to resemble another, real, red/white 1959 (single 4-bbl) D500
convertible.

What may appear to you to be "opinions and guesses" are actually facts which are the result of my having spent almost 30 years, now, in researching 1953 -1961 Dodges.

You will note that I don't comment on the other MoPar models, regularly, as I readily admit
not to knowing much about their histories.

61plymy - 2008-10-31 4:20 PM I don't know how you guys can be here so long and STILL not realize we have a whole site full of "Pot Stirrers". They're full of something else too I think. I want to know: A. Why some guys have so much time to do a lot of Googleing. B. What search you were doing to come up with all the info Dave and Nate came up with. If that is definitive results in Daves post, we now finally put LARS in the Hobby category with out question? We all knew it, but no one's ever proved it before. Mike

a) I'm a computer guy; I do I.T. security and forensics. At least half of my job is researching different things on the net.b) Just read through all of their posts. I'll bet the stuff you should google will be obvious to you. One of them called moparfins "my forums". Wonder how we all missed that, eh?

I've been following this for months/years without comment. The one ineffable FACT is that the owners were not forced by anyone to turn the car over for "stabilization", or whatever it may turn out to be, and Ultra-One can't cavalierly do whatever they feel like doing without the owner's patent approval. They obviously don't share a desire to leave it the way it came out of the tomb, for whatever reason, opinions of the purists notwithstanding, and it is time to let it go, along with whatever may have happened here in the past. To my mind, to get so bent out of shape over the fate of an unearthed rusty hulk of a car is borderline pathological... jeezum, lighten up fer crissakes.

Oh, Neil, you are just such a warm and fuzzy guy--I'd just like to give you a big hug!! But I hate to tell you that you know absolutely nothing about the origins and building of my 1959 Dodge convertible, so there you go with more opinions and hearsay. But I still love ya', big guy!! And I agree with firedome's post above!