Robert Fornell Ceramics

Intuit wrote:[...]I would be cautious about predicting success for your sake cup.

I know I took this out of context, but this line just cracks me up. You are such a stereotypical scientist Intuit. No disrespect man. I just started a masters of environmental science this fall, though I've been looking back the last three years thinking I would like to have gone for environmental engineering. Ah well, I'll just keep taking classes after I graduate.

Do you know if chilled (13*C-22*C) ethanol/water mix (~15% ethanol) is a more effective solvent than heated water (74*C-100*C) for tea? I know those are some huge ranges. I vary rarely heat the sake I buy and most of the time I drink it room temp. or slightly chilled. BTW, I'm fine with reapplying the starch periodically until enough sake residue builds up.

If this experiment fails, I'll mentally morph the vessel into a yunomi for sencha. It's large enough.

Like fine whiskey, most aromatic liquors offer their best 'nose' when served warm rather than cold. Cooling it takes the bite out of the liquor body, but also reduces the aroma unless you swill it around your oral cavity to warm it before swallowing.

Cooling the ethanol/water mixture slightly increases surface tension of the liquid, slightly reducing channel leakage tendency of your cup. It will not cure leakage problems as the starch film would.

Your best bet is to soak the crap out of the cup first to thoroughly hydrate wall matrix, then use the starch treatment steps, and dry carefully. Repeat the cycle. Then let it soak in water to test it before trying the sake.

If it still leaks, then yeah, use it for sencha and have Robert make you a smaller, less leaky cup with a finer-textured clay body.

Sake is Japanese sippin' whiskey. You not quaffing it like beer, boyo.

Thank you both Adam and Intuit for your thoughtful positions that you've both eloquently put forth here. While I don't have the pure science background of Intuit I do catch his drift, and that said, I do stand by what I make. Ceramics is not an exact science as there is a lot of "Intuit"ion involved in the art/craft. Does one go for the aesthetics one has in mind ie. a courser, earthier body which can be prone to weeping due to it's nature, or go to a tighter body with less "character". The trick is to find a balance one might say.

If we're dicussing sake here, we all have our preferences and I prefer 冷酒 reishu, or cold sake. I drink reishu exclusively now and have for many years as while heating sake make it easier for the body to absorb, and may make for a more olifactory stimulating experience, subtle nuances in flavor tend to be evaporated/masked in the heating process. Just my opinion...... however traditionally, poorer grades of sake were heated for this very reason, while more refined varieties were enjoyed at room tempreture or chilled..... or so it is said.

As an aside, one can make a fairly good nihonshu (Nigori, which is a raw, relatively unfiltered active culture variety) at home with a minimum of expense or equipment, which I have been doing of late. While sake yeast is available, I have found yeasts such as Blanc du Blanc or Champagne yeast make quite a dry yet pleasing brew with a good degree of subtlety. Of course the degree of refinement of your rice, water quality, and aging will all influence your final result. For those interested in persuing this, please refer to the following link.

ronin ceramurai wrote:Does one go for the aesthetics one has in mind ie. a courser, earthier body which can be prone to weeping due to it's nature, or go to a tighter body with less "character". The trick is to find a balance one might say.

Ichi tsuchiaji ni Kamataki san togeika. First clay, second firing, third potter.

The character of that base formative material can be so important.

ronin ceramurai wrote: If we're dicussing sake here, we all have our preferences and I prefer 冷酒 reishu, or cold sake.

This is by far my preference for drinking Nihonshu also. It really brings out the differences in the various sakes. On a hot summer day........ wonderful.

ronin ceramurai wrote:As an aside, one can make a fairly good nihonshu (Nigori, which is a raw, relatively unfiltered active culture variety) at home with a minimum of expense or equipment, which I have been doing of late.

I have been contemplating this of late. Thanks for the info and link, Robert.

ronin ceramurai wrote:If we're dicussing sake here, we all have our preferences and I prefer 冷酒 reishu, or cold sake. I drink reishu exclusively now and have for many years as while heating sake make it easier for the body to absorb, and may make for a more olifactory stimulating experience, subtle nuances in flavor tend to be evaporated/masked in the heating process. Just my opinion...... however traditionally, poorer grades of sake were heated for this very reason, while more refined varieties were enjoyed at room tempreture or chilled..... or so it is said.

Now there's a man who actually knows sake. Very eloquently described Robert. While I don't have many years of experience, I do like to think I know a good sake. I read lots of advice from those with much more experience than I before I started down the path. I'm very grateful that I did, though I do dabble in the crap-pool for a depth check every once and again (actually the most of the crap doesn't taste so bad to me).

Anyhooos, I agree with your temps. I almost always drink fine sake room temp to chilled. Mostly chilled. But if a friend buys crap sake and heats it, no complaints from me. That would be rude now...might as well partake and good times to follow, right?

ronin ceramurai wrote:If we're dicussing sake here, we all have our preferences and I prefer 冷酒 reishu, or cold sake. I drink reishu exclusively now and have for many years as while heating sake make it easier for the body to absorb, and may make for a more olifactory stimulating experience, subtle nuances in flavor tend to be evaporated/masked in the heating process. Just my opinion...... however traditionally, poorer grades of sake were heated for this very reason, while more refined varieties were enjoyed at room tempreture or chilled..... or so it is said.

As an aside, one can make a fairly good nihonshu (Nigori, which is a raw, relatively unfiltered active culture variety) at home with a minimum of expense or equipment, which I have been doing of late. While sake yeast is available, I have found yeasts such as Blanc du Blanc or Champagne yeast make quite a dry yet pleasing brew with a good degree of subtlety. Of course the degree of refinement of your rice, water quality, and aging will all influence your final result. For those interested in persuing this, please refer to the following link.

i love reishu too. cold nihonshu from various amazing rice/water producing areas in japan are amazing. had various tastings in and around tokyo this trip. john gaunter who both has a site and a couple books out gives insight into this wonderful double fermented beverage. one issue is remembering the names/kanji/regions/etc.

Well it's here. My Oribe yunomi.Wow, I love it, the inside is fabulous too.Happy snapz will follow.Someone buy the Chawan before I have to go homeless

I don't know a lot about sake, but I've had some nice unfilteredsake at the sushi bar. It comes in small brown bottle and served cold.

Again thank you Robert.can you tell me more about the clay?

Many, Many thanks to you Woozl and I hope that you and your new friend are getting acquainted and hitting it off.

The clay used on that piece is a dark, almost black firing body to which I added some local clay which was tailings from a local mining concern in an old coal mining town near me, Black Diamond. The surface effects include slip, black stain, clear glaze and Oribe glaze...... They are a lot of fun to make as they are all very different, yet related.

Below please find the Etsy images.....

Many, many thanks again Woozl!!!

Best wishes,R

Kindly click photos to enlarge.....

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Last edited by Robert Fornell on Oct 10th, '09, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

A few guinomi by Kubo Tadahiro which caught my eye this AM off friend Ms. Honma's gallery (Hi Iro No) site. Formerly of Kuroda Toen, she went off on her own a number of years ago and started her own gallery which has expanded over the years I have known her. While carrying a number of well known established potters, ie. Nakamura Rokuro, Kawakami Kiyomi, and the deceased Furutani Michio, she specializes in upcoming your potters sure to shine in the future...... Big heart!!!