1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I mention some things that perhaps should 2be done before speeches. One is the Muller document. 3MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is in hand. It is being dealt with by 4Dr Longerich who is dealing directly with Munich and I 5think also with Ludwigsburg where it is thought there is 6another copy. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bearing in mind how quick Munich was to 8respond on the other document, I would be hopeful that you 9would be able to let me have something this week. 10MR RAMPTON: Yes. This is more problematical because they have 11been given the wrong file reference. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought they had tracked down the right 13file? 14MR RAMPTON: No, they know that it is the wrong one. They 15think they have the document but they have got to find 16it. 17MR IRVING: The problem with Munich is all that all that they 18have is a duplicated copy. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know and that is why enquiries are being 20made of other archives, as I understand it. That is 21fine. Mr Rampton, the other thing, and it is the only 22thing that I think I need to ask you about is, I think you 23were going to give me a little bit help on what you might 24call the American Civil Evidence Act statements. 25MR RAMPTON: Yes. That is in charge of Miss Rogers. We are 26just down to the one now. The only one of the factual

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1Civil Evidence Act witnesses we want to use is Rebecca 2Guttmann about the National Alliance which I have already 3cross-examined on. Your Lordship can have this. It has 4file C, Rebecca Guttmann, and the rest can be chucked 5away. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say the rest, can I be absolutely 7clear about what can be chucked away? 8MR RAMPTON: Everybody else in file C. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: File C or C1? 10MR RAMPTON: I call mine C. It has 425 pages. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. 12MR RAMPTON: And it is called Defendants Witness statements 13I should think. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I now seem to have back the file I swore 15blind I never had. 16MR RAMPTON: That is the one with the National Alliance 17material behind it. 18MR IRVING: When you say you are using Rebecca Guttmann's 19statement, does that mean to say you are also using all 20the appendices to it, or relying on them? 21MR RAMPTON: Yes. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was going to ask. 23MR RAMPTON: Yes, I rely on the material that she picked up at 24a National Alliance meeting in 1998 at which Mr Irving 25gave a speech. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.