Ziz wrote:I have become better informed because of things I've read on forums - and that has shifted some of my views rather than changed them.

And I've become generally more tolerance of people, for example, as I've see more human weaknesses and frailties revealed by forumers.

Extreme views and intolerance of others on forums have opened my eyes up too....I don't know of many people in the real world who swear and name call if someone has an opposing viewpoint.But one of the most informative things on forums is being in the company of people you would never meet in real life...the good and the bad.I think I probably learn something new every day I post. Like you I have had a few long held beliefs nudged a bit rather than changed....but life is a learning process for us all..

Ziz wrote:I have become better informed because of things I've read on forums - and that has shifted some of my views rather than changed them.

And I've become generally more tolerance of people, for example, as I've see more human weaknesses and frailties revealed by forumers.

Extreme views and intolerance of others on forums have opened my eyes up too....I don't know of many people in the real world who swear and name call if someone has an opposing viewpoint.But one of the most informative things on forums is being in the company of people you would never meet in real life...the good and the bad.I think I probably learn something new every day I post. Like you I have had a few long held beliefs nudged a bit rather than changed....but life is a learning process for us all..

It is Syl, if we learn then we can all move on, be better. We all have learning curves everyday, its how we deal with them that matters.

Ziz wrote:I have become better informed because of things I've read on forums - and that has shifted some of my views rather than changed them.

And I've become generally more tolerance of people, for example, as I've see more human weaknesses and frailties revealed by forumers.

Extreme views and intolerance of others on forums have opened my eyes up too....I don't know of many people in the real world who swear and name call if someone has an opposing viewpoint.But one of the most informative things on forums is being in the company of people you would never meet in real life...the good and the bad.I think I probably learn something new every day I post. Like you I have had a few long held beliefs nudged a bit rather than changed....but life is a learning process for us all..

Most "extreme views and intolerance" are/is generated by testosterone fueled dick-waving - we chaps tend to suffer from that - silly I know.

Extreme views and intolerance of others on forums have opened my eyes up too....I don't know of many people in the real world who swear and name call if someone has an opposing viewpoint.But one of the most informative things on forums is being in the company of people you would never meet in real life...the good and the bad.I think I probably learn something new every day I post. Like you I have had a few long held beliefs nudged a bit rather than changed....but life is a learning process for us all..

It is Syl, if we learn then we can all move on, be better. We all have learning curves everyday, its how we deal with them that matters.

Yep....my mum used to say 'You are never too old to learn' and that's so true.

Extreme views and intolerance of others on forums have opened my eyes up too....I don't know of many people in the real world who swear and name call if someone has an opposing viewpoint.But one of the most informative things on forums is being in the company of people you would never meet in real life...the good and the bad.I think I probably learn something new every day I post. Like you I have had a few long held beliefs nudged a bit rather than changed....but life is a learning process for us all..

Most "extreme views and intolerance" are/is generated by testosterone fueled dick-waving - we chaps tend to suffer from that - silly I know.

On certain forums the women are far worse than the men......not sure what they are waving about but some of them are quite vicious.

The nearest I have been to the topic question was deep listening to a debate of some length on illegal drug taking way back when I first came onto forums, may have been the Daily Mirror, twas interesting but I am still wholly against it.

I do not wanna hear anyones views who support Muslim terrorists and their sympathisers, I will never change on that one..

_________________LOOK AFTER OUR OWN FIRST.

Comment on that which I say, not that which you assume I mean.

RACISM MEANS PATRIOTISM WHICH MEANS YOU LOVE AND PROTECT YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

I've had my views shaped by discussions held over years with a guy I used to be on two forums with, he's an anarcho-capitalist and believes there should be no government anywhere in the world, or at least that you should be able to opt out if you disagree ("voluntaryism").

I obviously don't agree with him completely, but I came to believe some of the things he talked about, like self-ownership and the rights that arise from that principle.

Syl wrote:Or do you know your opinions are right and no one on a chat forum can change your mind about real life issues?

In answer to the thread title... no... I have not changed any of my opinions...

Not saying ive always been so totally convinced of any of my opinions to be 100% sure each is right because I haven't... I only base my opinions on what I know, and my opinions are always up for change because I also know that others might know stuff that I don't know and which might well be a cause for me to revaluate/change my opinion...

But being on a forum, and able to say my opinions and then able to successfully argue/support them with facts and reason in debate with other intelligent people against their differing views, HAS somewhat confirmed my opinions to me as being right..!

Good thread by the way...!

I'd be interested to know if I've been a factor in changing any of other posters views on anything...?

_________________“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

'The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.' — George Orwell

I've had my views shaped by discussions held over years with a guy I used to be on two forums with, he's an anarcho-capitalist and believes there should be no government anywhere in the world, or at least that you should be able to opt out if you disagree ("voluntaryism").

I obviously don't agree with him completely, but I came to believe some of the things he talked about, like self-ownership and the rights that arise from that principle.

How would you run a country without some sort of ruling body? If most people were fair and smart and loving toward each other then I'd see that working....but I can't get my head round having no ruling body (though I've often tried it) so how that would work?

_________________“I’m writing to reach you now but...I might never reach you,Only want to teach you...about you”.

To his credit, this guy admits that people would have to behave a lot differently from how we do today in order for it to work. He has the idea that childhood spankings teach people that it's okay for an authoritarian figure to violate your personal sovereignty ... not sure I agree with that but it's food for thought

Some of these anarchist types do come up with some absolutely insane ideas, though. Check this out:

There remains, however, the difficult case of children. The right of self-ownership by each man has been established for adults, for natural self-owners who must use their minds to select and pursue their ends. On the other hand, it is clear that a newborn babe is in no natural sense an existing self-owner, but rather a potential self-owner.1 But this poses a difficult problem: for when, or in what way, does a growing child acquire his natural right to liberty and self-ownership? Gradually, or all at once? At what age? And what criteria do we set forth for this shift or transition?...

Even from birth, the parental ownership is not absolute but of a "trustee" or guardianship kind. In short, every baby as soon as it is born and is therefore no longer contained within his mother's body possesses the right of self-ownership by virtue of being a separate entity and a potential adult. It must therefore be illegal and a violation of the child's rights for a parent to aggress against his person by mutilating, torturing, murdering him, etc. On the other hand, the very concept of "rights" is a "negative" one, demarcating the areas of a person's action that no man may properly interfere with. No man can therefore have a "right" to compel someone to do a positive act, for in that case the compulsion violates the right of person or property of the individual being coerced. Thus, we may say that a man has a right to his property (i.e., a right not to have his property invaded), but we cannot say that anyone has a "right" to a "living wage," for that would mean that someone would be coerced into providing him with such a wage, and that would violate the property rights of the people being coerced. As a corollary this means that, in the free society, no man may be saddled with the legal obligation to do anything for another, since that would invade the former's rights; the only legal obligation one man has to another is to respect the other man's rights.

Applying our theory to parents and children, this means that a parent does not have the right to aggress against his children, but also that the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.2 The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.3 (Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.) This rule allows us to solve such vexing questions as: should a parent have the right to allow a deformed baby to die (e.g., by not feeding it)?4 The answer is of course yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die. (Though, as we shall see below, in a libertarian society the existence of a free baby market will bring such "neglect" down to a minimum.)

That's just seriously fucked up. I understand the concept but it's just ridiculously stupid. I'd love to go to a lecture about it though...that would be very interesting. I'd like to see if I would come out saying "Wow. That made sense!"

_________________“I’m writing to reach you now but...I might never reach you,Only want to teach you...about you”.

My opinion has changed on some topics through debate, but not through forums.

My views have been confirmed by forums but never completely altered. I always find hearing the alternative interesting though.

I think stubborness and pride are sometimes factors in those who never shift ground.

Topics my opinion has altered on include, switching support from Clinton to Sanders, defending meat eating to accepting it is really indefensible today (while sadly still doing it), opposing to supporting a nuclear deterrent and accepting slapping a child as punishment as a last resort for parents to completely opposing it.

eddie wrote:i have definitely took on board others' opinions and I will always listen. I think it's rotten to judge a whole person on one opinion too.

Great thread Syl

Thanks Eddie.It would be daft to judge anyone on one opinion. There are some people whos opinion we may strongly disagree with on some points and agree with on others. Alternatively there may also be some people we seldom agree with but we get on with anyway.....and sometimes people with the same opinions as our own we instinctively don't really like.Most peoples opinions (if they can relay them without insults) are worth reading though imo.

Syl wrote:Or do you know your opinions are right and no one on a chat forum can change your mind about real life issues?

In answer to the thread title... no... I have not changed any of my opinions...

Not saying ive always been so totally convinced of any of my opinions to be 100% sure each is right because I haven't... I only base my opinions on what I know, and my opinions are always up for change because I also know that others might know stuff that I don't know and which might well be a cause for me to revaluate/change my opinion...

But being on a forum, and able to say my opinions and then able to successfully argue/support them with facts and reason in debate with other intelligent people against their differing views, HAS somewhat confirmed my opinions to me as being right..!

Good thread by the way...!

I'd be interested to know if I've been a factor in changing any of other posters views on anything...?

Eilzel wrote:My opinion has changed on some topics through debate, but not through forums.

My views have been confirmed by forums but never completely altered. I always find hearing the alternative interesting though.

I think stubborness and pride are sometimes factors in those who never shift ground.

Topics my opinion has altered on include, switching support from Clinton to Sanders, defending meat eating to accepting it is really indefensible today (while sadly still doing it), opposing to supporting a nuclear deterrent and accepting slapping a child as punishment as a last resort for parents to completely opposing it.

It's great to have an open mind which you clearly have.

Your last point I can relate to and I have also shifted my opinion about.Smacking a child was for me the last resort in disciplining my own son. I did smack him a handful of times and it did work. Once a holiday abroad he was ruining was changed for the better after I slapped him. This was done days into the holiday, and I admit I was at the end of my tether. One short slap did the trick, though I felt bad at the time I always looked back and thought I handled the situation in the right way.

Now however, after being involved in a few debates about slapping children I question this.I know if I was bringing a child up now I would NOT smack.

Another thing....forums give you a chance to write your opinions down and sort out stuff in your own head you may not have previously given any thought to.

The thread going on now about the young girl who has been cryogenically frozen. I started off dithering, what would I do if it was my own child, she has had no life and desperately wants the chance to one day live.

Reading others opinions on it, and sorting out my own thoughts I have changed my mind to a 'not sure' to a definite No.

No, I've always held my views, in fact they've probably strengthened a little more by the actions of others, although I'm a little less pro monarchy than I used to be, but I still hold the view that the British people are better off with a constitutional monarchy.

And I've become increasing convinced by actions rather than words that forums are becoming more organised by the extreme far right as part of the political agenda to silence through threats those on the left for exposing the truth.

Another thing....forums give you a chance to write your opinions down and sort out stuff in your own head you may not have previously given any thought to.

The thread going on now about the young girl who has been cryogenically frozen. I started off dithering, what would I do if it was my own child, she has had no life and desperately wants the chance to one day live.

Reading others opinions on it, and sorting out my own thoughts I have changed my mind to a 'not sure' to a definite No.

This post right here....the reason why you're one of my favourite posters.

_________________“I’m writing to reach you now but...I might never reach you,Only want to teach you...about you”.

Another thing....forums give you a chance to write your opinions down and sort out stuff in your own head you may not have previously given any thought to.

The thread going on now about the young girl who has been cryogenically frozen. I started off dithering, what would I do if it was my own child, she has had no life and desperately wants the chance to one day live.

Reading others opinions on it, and sorting out my own thoughts I have changed my mind to a 'not sure' to a definite No.

This post right here....the reason why you're one of my favourite posters.

but you said Raggs was your favourite poster, a tad fickle perhaps, out of interest are there any LW posters you don't vehemently hate?

Eilzel wrote:My opinion has changed on some topics through debate, but not through forums.

My views have been confirmed by forums but never completely altered. I always find hearing the alternative interesting though.

I think stubborness and pride are sometimes factors in those who never shift ground.

Topics my opinion has altered on include, switching support from Clinton to Sanders, defending meat eating to accepting it is really indefensible today (while sadly still doing it), opposing to supporting a nuclear deterrent and accepting slapping a child as punishment as a last resort for parents to completely opposing it.

It's great to have an open mind which you clearly have.

Your last point I can relate to and I have also shifted my opinion about.Smacking a child was for me the last resort in disciplining my own son. I did smack him a handful of times and it did work. Once a holiday abroad he was ruining was changed for the better after I slapped him. This was done days into the holiday, and I admit I was at the end of my tether. One short slap did the trick, though I felt bad at the time I always looked back and thought I handled the situation in the right way.

Now however, after being involved in a few debates about slapping children I question this.I know if I was bringing a child up now I would NOT smack.

For me, the decisive argument that swayed me was the idea that slapping only comes when a parent has lost control, which they should never do. I was slapped rarely as a child, and I don't hold it against my parents, but I now believe it should never really come to that.

eddie wrote:I said rags was one of my favourite posters - as is syl. I can like a poster despite some of their opinions cos I grew up a long time ago. Please try and read my words as they appear on your screen.

Also, I'm not too sure why you care whom I like and dislike. It shouldn't really bother you.

Hell scrat, I don't even dislike you! I'm not really made that way tbh.

So you only like far right posters, ok that's cool.

I like quite a few far right posters because they don't abuse me.

Surely it's best for forums to allow a spectrum of ideas rather than trying to facilitate the production until there's only one extreme far right ideology.

eddie wrote:Hahahahahaha yes scrat, look around you...I only like far right posters.

Your posts only prove to me that you're either totally tunnel-visioned or you're only here to troll.

I don't think it's tunnel vision when the vast majority of Popular posters on here are either far right extremists or tinkering on the edge of being far right terrorists, but I guess that's only the brit contingent, Ben, Quill, Veya, Wolfe etc seem far more balanced, Irn, Ziz and Eilzel are decent moderates and Andy, Sassy and my goodself are the only slightly left of centre moderates.

I don't see it as trolling to point that out, but then I guess everything I do offends you!

Perhaps we should have some representation on here to restore that balance?

I'd like you to find someone who agrees with you but I know you can't. So far, you're a man on your own island.

I'd hate to be as judgemental as you and of all the people you have listed....none of them are like you at all, and there's the joke.And I like all of them.

Now I am going to bid you farewell and good luck, because I've wasted enough time trying to reason with you and I can see that you're one of those people who are really and truly, the type I need to avoid right now.

_________________“I’m writing to reach you now but...I might never reach you,Only want to teach you...about you”.

eddie wrote:I said rags was one of my favourite posters - as is syl. I can like a poster despite some of their opinions cos I grew up a long time ago. Please try and read my words as they appear on your screen.

Also, I'm not too sure why you care whom I like and dislike. It shouldn't really bother you.

Hell scrat, I don't even dislike you! I'm not really made that way tbh.

So you only like far right posters, ok that's cool.

I like quite a few far right posters because they don't abuse me.

Surely it's best for forums to allow a spectrum of ideas rather than trying to facilitate the production until there's only one extreme far right ideology.

Yes... so stop abusing everyone who dares to have any other view than yours...!

_________________“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

'The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.' — George Orwell

Surely it's best for forums to allow a spectrum of ideas rather than trying to facilitate the production until there's only one extreme far right ideology.

Yes... so stop abusing everyone who dares to have any other view than yours...!

Hi Tommy, you're one of the far right chaps I quite like because you can banter without getting particularly nasty or calling for me to be banned, I'm not saying you're normal, I just don't see a hidden agenda in you, so what views should I stop confronting, so that I can understand you better?

What an interesting thread, I don't think my mind has been altered completely on any one subject but my views have certainly shifted on a few subjects. We can learn from others, no matter how much their opinion differs from our own. Surely believing one is always right is the epitome of ignorance itself?I am trying to read the Soham thread at the moment, I'm not very well so its slow going. It's fascinating though because it's all new to me. Too many threads are derailed by trolling nonsense though.

Miffs2 wrote:What an interesting thread, I don't think my mind has been altered completely on any one subject but my views have certainly shifted on a few subjects. We can learn from others, no matter how much their opinion differs from our own. Surely believing one is always right is the epitome of ignorance itself?I am trying to read the Soham thread at the moment, I'm not very well so its slow going. It's fascinating though because it's all new to me. Too many threads are derailed by trolling nonsense though.

Hope you feel well sune, Miffz.

_________________LOOK AFTER OUR OWN FIRST.

Comment on that which I say, not that which you assume I mean.

RACISM MEANS PATRIOTISM WHICH MEANS YOU LOVE AND PROTECT YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

Miffs2 wrote:What an interesting thread, I don't think my mind has been altered completely on any one subject but my views have certainly shifted on a few subjects. We can learn from others, no matter how much their opinion differs from our own. Surely believing one is always right is the epitome of ignorance itself?I am trying to read the Soham thread at the moment, I'm not very well so its slow going. It's fascinating though because it's all new to me. Too many threads are derailed by trolling nonsense though.

Another thing....forums give you a chance to write your opinions down and sort out stuff in your own head you may not have previously given any thought to.

The thread going on now about the young girl who has been cryogenically frozen. I started off dithering, what would I do if it was my own child, she has had no life and desperately wants the chance to one day live.

Reading others opinions on it, and sorting out my own thoughts I have changed my mind to a 'not sure' to a definite No.

This post right here....the reason why you're one of my favourite posters.

Your last point I can relate to and I have also shifted my opinion about.Smacking a child was for me the last resort in disciplining my own son. I did smack him a handful of times and it did work. Once a holiday abroad he was ruining was changed for the better after I slapped him. This was done days into the holiday, and I admit I was at the end of my tether. One short slap did the trick, though I felt bad at the time I always looked back and thought I handled the situation in the right way.

Now however, after being involved in a few debates about slapping children I question this.I know if I was bringing a child up now I would NOT smack.

For me, the decisive argument that swayed me was the idea that slapping only comes when a parent has lost control, which they should never do. I was slapped rarely as a child, and I don't hold it against my parents, but I now believe it should never really come to that.

Yes I agree, I would have argued once that when I slapped my own son I had not lost control, but maybe we make excuses for ourselves, especially when a quick smack on the leg has worked.

My grandson was never slapped, mind you he was as good as gold and he responded well to bribes.

scrat wrote:No, I've always held my views, in fact they've probably strengthened a little more by the actions of others, although I'm a little less pro monarchy than I used to be, but I still hold the view that the British people are better off with a constitutional monarchy.

And I've become increasing convinced by actions rather than words that forums are becoming more organised by the extreme far right as part of the political agenda to silence through threats those on the left for exposing the truth.

I think you are paranoid tbh.....not everyone you accuse of being 'far right' actually are. I am not particularly political at all, plus I have always been a Labour voter, yet you have accused me (along with plenty others) of plotting in secret rooms etc.

Miffs2 wrote:What an interesting thread, I don't think my mind has been altered completely on any one subject but my views have certainly shifted on a few subjects. We can learn from others, no matter how much their opinion differs from our own. Surely believing one is always right is the epitome of ignorance itself?I am trying to read the Soham thread at the moment, I'm not very well so its slow going. It's fascinating though because it's all new to me. Too many threads are derailed by trolling nonsense though.

scrat wrote:No, I've always held my views, in fact they've probably strengthened a little more by the actions of others, although I'm a little less pro monarchy than I used to be, but I still hold the view that the British people are better off with a constitutional monarchy.

And I've become increasing convinced by actions rather than words that forums are becoming more organised by the extreme far right as part of the political agenda to silence through threats those on the left for exposing the truth.

I think you are paranoid tbh.....not everyone you accuse of being 'far right' actually are. I am not particularly political at all, plus I have always been a Labour voter, yet you have accused me (along with plenty others) of plotting in secret rooms etc.

I don't think that being concerned with our future is paranoia, I admit that my observations are tempered by the world we live in, perhaps in my selfishness I concern myself with Britain as I mostly observe what is happening here.

They're creating wars to sell bombs, and blaming the people they're bombing for being immigrants.There are 120,00 homeless children20,000 homeless exservice personnelThey're cutting the living standards of disabled folk.Cutting benefits to the poor, whilst rewarding the rich with tax cuts.Privatising the NHSForcing the new underclass and immigrant workers to exist on the minimum wage, no contract zero hrs, mothers are once more giving birth in workhouse toilets.They're doing this for greed, and because their greed is never enough they're going to frack this beautiful island and poison our drinking water.

When I observe this I consider anyone who defends this or votes for this to be far right extremists, because I struggle to find any other word for it.

I think you are paranoid tbh.....not everyone you accuse of being 'far right' actually are. I am not particularly political at all, plus I have always been a Labour voter, yet you have accused me (along with plenty others) of plotting in secret rooms etc.

I don't think that being concerned with our future is paranoia, I admit that my observations are tempered by the world we live in, perhaps in my selfishness I concern myself with Britain as I mostly observe what is happening here.

They're creating wars to sell bombs, and blaming the people they're bombing for being immigrants.There are 120,00 homeless children20,000 homeless exservice personnelThey're cutting the living standards of disabled folk.Cutting benefits to the poor, whilst rewarding the rich with tax cuts.Privatising the NHSForcing the new underclass and immigrant workers to exist on the minimum wage, no contract zero hrs, mothers are once more giving birth in workhouse toilets.They're doing this for greed, and because their greed is never enough they're going to frack this beautiful island and poison our drinking water.

When I observe this I consider anyone who defends this or votes for this to be far right extremists, because I struggle to find any other word for it.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say above, my point is not everyone on here who may disagree with something you do say are far right extremists who plan and plot to bring about armageddon.