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As I stated, I have no wish to be involved in this political issue: it is a political issue, even though you yourself did not call it such. However, I will briefly reply to your post. My replies are signalled PAG.

[quote=Joey Davis;176530][quote=Peter A Goldsbury;176526]

Quote:

Joey Davis wrote:

who is mentioning "politics?" the point, which is being overlooked, is that if people doing aikido cannot be friendly to one another, even in the midst of differences of opinion, it is a disgrace and discredits many of the fundamentals regarding the promotion of peaceful interaction between people.

PAG. In the original article, the allegation was made that one group had been banned from making friendly greetings with the other. I thought that the original discussion of the article already suggested that there had been no such ban.

The Aikikai-Iwama split is usually taken as an example of aikido 'politics', even though you did not specifically use this term.

I myself share your opinion, as expressed above, provided that cultural norms are also respected. Are you aware of the Japanese distinction between tatemae and honne? The distinction is fundamental in Japanese culture and is in play here.

In Japan people with opinions that differ regarding fundamental issues simply do not communicate with one another and this is not regarded as being unfriendly. The issue of friendliness simply does not arise. Non-Japanese may be horrified about this, and non-Japanese deshi in Iwama might not understand the issues here, but it is the case and has to be accepted as an example of differing cultural values.

Quote:

Joey Davis wrote:

a previous post of yours mentions "I will raise the question at the IAF Directing Committee Meeting, to be held in Paris in March 2007."

PAG. The relations between the Tokyo Hombu and the Iwama Dojo run by Hitohiro Sensei do not directly involve the IAF, so the issue was not raised directly. However it was discussed outside the formal meeting.

Quote:

Joey Davis wrote:

until now I have not seen any postings regarding this meeting and the situation in point. if they have appeared elsewhere could you please point me to them.

PAG. Try the IAF website.

Quote:

Joey Davis wrote:

having given your opinion extensively in the past, could you shed some light on your above meeting in regards to these incidents?

PAG. Ah, you have presented me with a dilemma. Having given my opinions extensively in the past about other issues, it would be inconsistent with my previous practice if I did not give my opinions about this issue. However, I will not do this here.

So I have a suggestion. If you wish to discuss this issue further, I suggest that you do so with Isoyama Shihan directly. If you PM me I will give you his e-mail address. He understands English, by the way.

You didn't think we in the West were the ones that screwed things up did you? I used to feel guilty, feeling that we in the West were wrecking Aikido. I don't any more as it is eminently clear that the Japanese are quite capable of wrecking things own their own without any help at all from us.

Seriously, there are Japanese teachers who want nothing to do with this type of political behavior and there are those that purpetrate it. In the West we have those that buy into it and keep it going here and we have folks that don't. Our only hope is to simply not buy into it. I am good friends with a senior student of teachers who do not in any way get along with my own teacher. We simply decided that we didn't need to buy into conflicts which started back in the "old country".

I frankly don't know why anyone would be surprised at the described political events at the shrine. At the Aiki Expo, the very people who are now being excluded at the shrine were told by their teacher not to attend the classes offered by the other teachers... What goes around, comes around.

The students, especially the seniors, of one of the oldest and largest Aikido organizations in the United States are not allowed to train with people from outside their limited set of organizational affiliations. I periodically meet them at various seminars when they have "snuck out" to train with new teachers. They are always worried that Sensei X will find out. Not only does the Shihan in question enforce this but the other seniors bring heavy peer pressure on anyone who steps out of line by attending non- approved events.

I have a friend who is a student of a Japanese Shihan with whom he trained in Japan. He currently trains at a dojo here in the states. He wanted to bring his teacher over to do a seminar. One would not have thought that this would be a problem as the teacher in question had been a honbu dojo instructor for many years and is listed on the Aikikai website as one of their affiliated teachers. But the dojo in question received word from the Shihan that oversees them in the states that they were not to host the Shihan from Japan. So my friend had to set up the seminar on his own and any mistaken association with his home dojo was quickly disowned.

This is all complete crap as far as I am concerned. You have American Aikido practitioners of 6th dan and 7th dan who feel they have to restrict their training because some Japanese Shihan gets paranoid. This kind of carry over from feudal times is ridiculous and we need to start acting like the adults we are, not kids dependent on some adult figure for our survival. Obviously, we cannot change what the Japanese choose to do at home. But we do not have to buy into this here, period. We need to refuse to participate.

I train with anyone I feel has something to show me. Anyone from any organization, any student of any teacher, is welcome at my dojo, and, in fact, is welcome at virtually all the events our organization holds. For this type of thing to continue you have to have people who perpetuate it. Just stop. Just say no. Take your lumps from that Shihan who tells you not to train with so and so. The only ability these guys have to control things come from the fact that they can withdraw their support from individuals who cross them. If people collectively just said they didn't want to play any more, what do you think would happen? Can you see the Shihan disowning all of his seniors students? I don't think so... He'd learn to live with it. Maybe he'd find that his students still love him even if they see some other teachers. Maybe he might feel the need to innovate a little to keep his students instead of restricting access. Now, that's a concept...

I think that this is one aspect ofthe whole Japanese thing that we can simply REFUSE to participate in. If no one around the wrold payed any attention to these ridiculous political machinations, I suspect that not only would the leaders in Japan learn to live with it, but they would probably start to change themselves. We can be the incentive for them to do so if we choose.

I feel that there are levels at which we must refuse passively/actively and levels at which we need to speak loudly. To refuse simply is not always enough. There are those out there who have been politically banned and no one is saying anything. Some people go into their 'it isn't any of my business' routines, some others don't know segregation when it's under their noses, and some others still participate aggressively in the defemation of character who step out of line.
I've been involved in this garbage in my own training and as a consequence I'm sensitive to it(kind of like an allergy). I tend to speak up loudly when I notice this infraction of power, sometimes too loudly, because it is soooooo damaging.
I fee if we aren't courageous enough to speak up within our own communities we can't expect to have or to believe in aiko, the spirit of loving protection.
This is our training. Let's make it as powerful and as beautiful as our lifetimes will allow.

I don't know anything about any of the politics involved in this, but I wondered the same thing upon reading the article. On the one hand, it is hard to imagine what I would consider a decent excuse for being systematically rude to people of a particular organization or affiliation, even less instructing others to do so... even less still when one's art is supposed to be about 'harmony'. The experiences in the article seem to be evidence of this. On the other hand, why wouldn't Mr, Homma have gone to someone in charge and asked them directly what was going on and why? Even if the response was denial or evasion on the part of whomever he consulted, an account of that exchange would have made the article's case much more compelling.

I'm grateful to Sensei Homma for writing the article in the fashion that he did. It came at a very important point during a similar incident here in California. From a journalistic point of view, it was much more relevant to the population of aikidoka to have written an open and heartfelt article based on his senses and experience
than to have mired it into some aiki governmental complaint beaurocracy. As you see, given the variety of responses here, it may have taken him a very long time to validate his impressions through someone elses lense so that he could share his impressions. None of us who have gotten to hear him or even talk about this very alive subject.
We can all have room to speak, especially in America where that is our specialty, and we can disagree, and we can discourse.
Thank You to people who speak out.

I'm grateful to Sensei Homma for writing the article in the fashion that he did. It came at a very important point during a similar incident here in California. From a journalistic point of view, it was much more relevant to the population of aikidoka to have written an open and heartfelt article based on his senses and experience
than to have mired it into some aiki governmental complaint beaurocracy. As you see, given the variety of responses here, it may have taken him a very long time to validate his impressions through someone elses lense so that he could share his impressions. None of us who have gotten to hear him or even talk about this very alive subject.
We can all have room to speak, especially in America where that is our specialty, and we can disagree, and we can discourse.
Thank You to people who speak out.

Yes, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I have no objection whatsoever to Mr Homma writing an article about bad relations between the two dojo in Iwama. However, I would like to ask why Homma Sensei did not speak directly to Isoyama Sensei about this issue. After all they were both uchi-deshi of O Sensei in Iwama.

the issue is, will this year's Tai Sai be any different, has anything changed, what were the results of Goldsbury/Isoyama meetings in March 2007?

Hi Joey -

I'm not sure I understand your position here. You seem to be asserting that these meetings or discussions are somehow a matter of public record. Why would that be the case? I'm almost inferring that an obligation exists to publish answers to your questions, which confuses me.

there was much discussion about this, mostly that it was all coming from one side and about not hearing from the other side.

it was inferred that the results of a certain meeting would achieve that balance, if no one else who was present during that time could do so.

the meeting in question was more than a month ago. no results have been posted. any inference to obligation refers to the fact that there should be an obligation on all of us to talk about and actively resolve an issue as upsetting as this.

there was much discussion about this, mostly that it was all coming from one side and about not hearing from the other side.

it was inferred that the results of a certain meeting would achieve that balance, if no one else who was present during that time could do so.

the meeting in question was more than a month ago. no results have been posted. any inference to obligation refers to the fact that there should be an obligation on all of us to talk about and actively resolve an issue as upsetting as this.

I should clear up some possible misunderstanding. The Aikikai has never presented its opinion publicly on the Aikikai/Tohei split and has never presented its opinion publicly on the Aikikai/Iwama split. I understand that this was due to a deliberate decision. So there is no chance of hearing the other side of the story from the actual source. You might not like this, but there it is. And I am not going to break ranks here.

In Paris there were several hours of formal meetings following an agenda and I am now going through the Minutes of these meetings. When they are ready, they will appear on the IAF website. Discussions about Iwama did not take place during the formal meetings, but there were many hours of informal discussion about various topics outside the formal meetings.

Best wishes to all,

EDIT to Joey Davis.
Since it is not publicly available, I need to obtain Isoyama Shihan's permission before revealing his e-mail address to those he does not know. So I suggest you write to him at the e-mail address given on the Ibaragi Dojo website. You can find it on the English language site at aikikai.or.jp

Yes, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I have no objection whatsoever to Mr Homma writing an article about bad relations between the two dojo in Iwama. However, I would like to ask why Homma Sensei did not speak directly to Isoyama Sensei about this issue. After all they were both uchi-deshi of O Sensei in Iwama.

still waiting on Mr Isoyama's contact details so I can "put my money where my mouth is" and ask him myself.

I think OPEN discussion is the way to resolve an issue like this.

Behind closed door conversations that create undisclosed policy create divisions because people are still "in action". That is, they are acting out the policies.

Perhaps, though, a way to be more active in this isssue is to look around at your immediate aikido community and see if you find traces of segregation, traces of prejudice, traces of feuds.There is a legacy of segregating behavior that has come down through the generations. If you find that there is evidence, even on a small level, follow up on it with your Sempai or Sensei. Voice your concerns.Maybe even use the example of Iwama as your basis.

One of the beauties of aikido being an international art is that it can benefit from a cultural diversity of approach. We don't necessarily do things the way the Japanese have or do and that can be a very good thing. Just as we benefit from the restraint perspectives of the East, the East benefits from the freedom perspectives of the West. We're all in it together. There's no bad guy here. Only learning, refining and recreating for the purpose of misogi (cleaning our own houses collectively and individually).

This is kind of off topic, but just in response to the guys who believe Takemusu people are the innocent ones. I have previoulsy trained as a visitor at 3 Iwama style dojos, while Saito sensei was still alive. The 3 teachers I've met didn't know eachother, but they had one thing in common, hatred of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I cannot tell you how many times I heard the name of the second doshu mentioned in a very demeaning way by the instructors. The funny thing was that my technique was much better than their own students, even though I came from the lowly aikikai who got all the techniques wrong under the influence of that ingrateful Kisshomaru Ueshiba. So it seems to me that Takemusu aikido was and still initially based on hatred towards aikikai rather than differences in teaching.

This is kind of off topic, but just in response to the guys who believe Takemusu people are the innocent ones. I have previoulsy trained as a visitor at 3 Iwama style dojos, while Saito sensei was still alive. The 3 teachers I've met didn't know eachother, but they had one thing in common, hatred of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I cannot tell you how many times I heard the name of the second doshu mentioned in a very demeaning way by the instructors. The funny thing was that my technique was much better than their own students, even though I came from the lowly aikikai who got all the techniques wrong under the influence of that ingrateful Kisshomaru Ueshiba. So it seems to me that Takemusu aikido was and still initially based on hatred towards aikikai rather than differences in teaching.

Intresting, wich Takemusu associations would that be? Since both the Takemusu Aikido Acc in USA and the Takemusu Aikido Kyokai in europe is affiliated to Aikikai. And my impression is that also the "Iwama group" in CAA also maintains strong links to the Aikikai.

This is kind of off topic, but just in response to the guys who believe Takemusu people are the innocent ones. I have previoulsy trained as a visitor at 3 Iwama style dojos, while Saito sensei was still alive. The 3 teachers I've met didn't know eachother, but they had one thing in common, hatred of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. I cannot tell you how many times I heard the name of the second doshu mentioned in a very demeaning way by the instructors. The funny thing was that my technique was much better than their own students, even though I came from the lowly aikikai who got all the techniques wrong under the influence of that ingrateful Kisshomaru Ueshiba. So it seems to me that Takemusu aikido was and still initially based on hatred towards aikikai rather than differences in teaching.

it's this type of response that simply invites a student of the Iwama style to then put down an aikikai dojo or two in response.

not only is it off the topic, it goes against everything that this thread is trying to get to - that we, the current students NOW need to encourage the habit of being friendly to one another.

there is plenty to bitch about on both sides I'm sure, but will that help the matter?

is that where you want to spend your energy?

what's means more to you - getting your story off your chest or learning from it and making sure that you never do that to anyone yourself?

Behind closed door conversations that create undisclosed policy create divisions because people are still "in action". That is, they are acting out the policies.

Perhaps, though, a way to be more active in this isssue is to look around at your immediate aikido community and see if you find traces of segregation, traces of prejudice, traces of feuds.There is a legacy of segregating behavior that has come down through the generations. If you find that there is evidence, even on a small level, follow up on it with your Sempai or Sensei. Voice your concerns.Maybe even use the example of Iwama as your basis.

One of the beauties of aikido being an international art is that it can benefit from a cultural diversity of approach. We don't necessarily do things the way the Japanese have or do and that can be a very good thing. Just as we benefit from the restraint perspectives of the East, the East benefits from the freedom perspectives of the West. We're all in it together. There's no bad guy here. Only learning, refining and recreating for the purpose of misogi (cleaning our own houses collectively and individually).

Aikido is medicine for a sick world. Lets get well together.

Mr Homma wrote his article as an individual who was once a deshi and so his view is a personal view. I think that it is very unlikely that any shihan will appear in this discussion forum and give the 'other' viewpoint, even a personal viewpoint. Moreover, the reasons for this are not so easy to condemn.

So, while I, too, am in favour of open discussion, I think we need to be clear about the cultural dimensions here. I have had many 'open' discussions at the Aikikai Hombu, meaning that I have discussed matters that were once taboo (for example, the 'international' education of the present Doshu's son and the violence of a particular shihan in his own dojo ). These 'open' discussions were behind closed doors and involved only certain people, but the fact that they actually took place constitutes a minor revolution.

I think the 'open' discussion you have in mind is a discussion where anyone can participate, such as here on Aikiweb. Such discussions can be very illuminating in many ways, but I have my doubts whether such discussions would solve the 'problem' of Iwama. They might help the deshi who go to Iwama to be more friendly to those on the other side of the wall--and this is a good thing. But the roots of the problem are more complex and lie elsewhere.

I think that what you have in mind is a typical 'win-win' situation, where everybody leaves the 'negotiaton encounter' feeling good about what has happened. You might think that this is so obviously desirable as to be beyond question. I disagree.

Earlier this evening, I had my seminar on 'Cross-cultural Negotiation'. I have seven students in my seminar: five Japanese and two Chinese. The text I am using is the latest edition of Negotiation, by Roy Lewicki & others. Lewicki uses the 'win-win' model, but all the students took issue with this negotiation model: it was too western, too 'American'. The Chinese students argued that negotiation was actually a form of warfare and all students agreed that honesty and openness were not necessarily conducive to successful negotiation. I was surprised, both at the strength of the opinions offered and at the unanimity.

Iwama is an issue involving Japanese. Of course, it also involves non-Japanese, since there are many generations of non-Japanese deshi who have trained in Iwama and these senior shihans are also actually part of the problem. That is, there is a historical dimension, formed when Morihiro Saito Shihan was still alive. But, given the vertical structure of aikido, the owners of the dojo and main opinion formers are Japanese and the problem will eventually be solved, if it is solved at all, by the Japanese themselves, sitting down together and working out some kind of solution.

Gaiatsu (outside pressure), however, has always been a potent force for change in Japan and there is no reason to doubt that it will be effective in aikido. The occasion of 'scandal' to pious believers has always been a potent source of change in the Catholic Church. So, I would think that several thousand letters,

1) addressed to the present Doshu, and with copies sent to Hiroshi Isoyama and Hitohiro Saito,
(2) expressing outrage at the scandal given to the aikido world by the existence of TWO separate dojos in Iwama--the place where O Sensei lived for much of his life and where there the Aiki shrine is located, which appear to have no amicable relations with one another,

might have some effect.

The point is that the lack of amicable relations between the two dojos is most obvious and is also the source of scandal. There would be no need to mention the deeper issues involved.

Intresting, wich Takemusu associations would that be? Since both the Takemusu Aikido Acc in USA and the Takemusu Aikido Kyokai in europe is affiliated to Aikikai. And my impression is that also the "Iwama group" in CAA also maintains strong links to the Aikikai.

Well, there is no need to point fingers but I can tell you the said dojos are located on 3 different continents. My (previous) sensei's reaction when I told him was that Takemusu was part of the aikikai and he was very surprised at this kind of disrespect to the son of the founder.

Of course I was aware this was off topic as I clearly mentioned in my post. I do not take these incidents too personally and I do not need to get them off my chest. I have enjoyed the training, and couldn't care less if the instructors believed that K. Ueshiba was a jerk or not, and if Saito sensei had the real technique of Osensei or not. The point is during a period of my life I took aikido very seriously, and was trying to train at any dojo of any style at any country I travelled to. The above incidents are the only instances where my affiliation and not my aikido abilities were criticized. Just to show you that this "allergy" is not very recent.

Quote:

Joey Davis wrote:

it's this type of response that simply invites a student of the Iwama style to then put down an aikikai dojo or two in response.

not only is it off the topic, it goes against everything that this thread is trying to get to - that we, the current students NOW need to encourage the habit of being friendly to one another.

there is plenty to bitch about on both sides I'm sure, but will that help the matter?

is that where you want to spend your energy?

what's means more to you - getting your story off your chest or learning from it and making sure that you never do that to anyone yourself?

People who puts more weight on image (affiliation, lineage, political issues, agendas, personal stories, fiefdoms, power struggles, public recognition, cultish behavior and the like) than on performance saddens me.

There's lots of the first kind of people in the Aikido world. I try not to became one of them. That and the fact that i don't have all the info about the causes and circunstances related to the issue at hand(like Mr. Goldsbury said: " ... the roots of the problem are more complex and lie elsewhere.") makes me keep my opinion to myself.

I think that what you have in mind is a typical 'win-win' situation, where everybody leaves the 'negotiaton encounter' feeling good about what has happened. You might think that this is so obviously desirable as to be beyond question. I disagree.

Earlier this evening, I had my seminar on 'Cross-cultural Negotiation'. I have seven students in my seminar: five Japanese and two Chinese. The text I am using is the latest edition of Negotiation, by Roy Lewicki & others. Lewicki uses the 'win-win' model, but all the students took issue with this negotiation model: it was too western, too 'American'. The Chinese students argued that negotiation was actually a form of warfare and all students agreed that honesty and openness were not necessarily conducive to successful negotiation. I was surprised, both at the strength of the opinions offered and at the unanimity.,

Peter, many thanks for including this, it is indeed fascinating and a revelation ... and something we'd hope folks in Foreign Service, multinational business, etc are aware of...doh!

I am not Demetrio, but I will give my opinion. I really have no desire to be involved with this sort of 'aikido politics'. Mr Homma wrote an article and gave his opinion from his viewpoint, neither of which are shared by others in Iwama.

The IAF held a meeting in Paris last month and Hiroshi Isoyama Shihan took part. The meeting lasted for a week and I had many occasions to talk to Isoyama Shihan. Of course we discussed training in Iwama, both when Saito Morihiro Shihan was alive and now.

However, since the discussion last year apparently did not "get to the heart of the matter", I leave that to others who are closer to the heart of the matter than I am. If you look at the English version of the Aikikai Hombu website, you can see information about the Ibaragi Shibu Dojo and can access the Dojo's website, in English and Japanese. Both versions have an e-mail address for Shigemi Inagaki.

So I suggest that you guys put your money where your mouths are and contact the Ibaragi Dojo directly. Tell him about the Homma article and ask him for his opinion.

I agree that it is important and fruitful for people with interest and operarating opinions to get more information about this subject. I believe that the population of aikido should recommend and voice their views based on their feelings and perceptions. Right or Wrong, as it were, our voices and will are connected and information is enlightening.

O'Sensei let us know,
"Aikido is a way to create the world as one family."
it is up to us as to whether that will be a functional or a disfunctional family.

now all we have to do is figure out why the deshi of different associations can't remain friendly even in the midst of their differences.

what do you think would be of help in resolving tensions there in Iwama?

have a good day.

J.D.

I went to Iwama in October of last year for the first time and coincided with Bryan as uchideshi to Saito Hitohiro Sensei. I guess by the time he returned (it was his third trip) the "issue" had blown over.

I started my Aikido training under Homma Sensei, and currently train in an Iwama Ryu dojo in VA. I occasionally fly back to Denver for business and train at Nippon Kan. I have also trained in seminars with aikidoka from other styles or associations. Regardless of styles or influences, I have never had a problem talking to or training with anyone.

Iwama is not a big town, and uchideshi from both the Shin Shin Shurenkan (Saito Sensei's) and the Ibaraki Shibu Dojo (Isoyama, Inagaki Sensei's) ran into each other at the coin laundry, the Hot Spar (like a 7-11 where all uchideshi tend to stop when running errands) and just riding the bikes around town. The Ibaraki Dojo is in Yoshioka Nijuroku, or Yoshioka 26 so it is next door to Saito Sensei's house. Invariably we all saw each other quite often, since Saito Sensei's uchideshi stay at a building in the premises of his house. We talked, said hello to each other and communicated without any issues. None of us had any problems and to be quite honest, the experience was so good that I can't wait to go back.

One day while Bryan, Denis (the Frenchman), Anker (the Dane) and I were branding our jos and kens with the Shurenkan brand, while Saito Sensei gave us instructions on how to do it. Lo and behold, one of the Senseis from the Ibaraki dojo stopped over, and chatted with Saito Sensei briefly. He then jokingly asked us if we were barbequing our jos. We all cracked up laughing. Is that enmity?

Besides the excellent training, this was one of the best lessons in human relations I have had. It is typical for people to create a "hurricane inside a teacup" by sometimes assuming there is no communication, when in fact all it takes is honest and good natured talk. I encourage all those who have assumed there is a problem to go there and train at either dojo and experience the whole thing first hand.