The Lurkers Really stood out.It wasn't a showmanship, but a strategy in order to Win. I think you MaY be able to see a Hydra-Lurker battle in one or two years. I want to show everyone more entertaining Zerg versus Zerg matches from now on. From now on I want to try different kinds of strategies in Zerg matches and I want to be person to lead that trend.

If TvT is the match-up Where you would take a nap...waiting for Actually interesting match to be played in the next set. ZvZ is the match-up Where you go take a snack. your typical ZvZ consists of build order loss, lings battle, muta/scourge battle, 10 workers mining all Game long, and an average of 7 to 10 minutes per games. Nerve wrecking...but not very spectacular.(in my opinion)

the queen's most usefull spell in this match-up, ensnare is a Green goo the queen launches that splashes in a 5x5 matrix area. units nuder effect of ensnare have their movement speed halved. Units that are speed upgraded revert to their original speedinstead. Ensnare also has effects on the rate of Fire of units, the reduction varies depending on the units.(ie: a siege-tank suffers no decrease while a stimmed Marine suffers a 42% percent decrease)

Mutalisks suffers a 18% decrease.

A queen can cast ensnare over 10 mutalisks (and it is rare a queen will hit under 15 or so mutas considering how stacked they are) and you are now fighting an effective force of 8.2 mutas.(plus their movement speed is halved)

it is also possible to use ensnare to delay the mutas and do some harassment like this.

stop at around 11:29

A small hope came from ZerO vs type-b...what if ZvZ could become interesting? what if, with these new innovations long ZvZ became a bit more standard? That small hope was quickly crushed as the good old muta/scourge ZvZ would still be used in every single games.

yet, on the 12th of June 2010... events of unforeseeable importance took place

4 th set of woonjing vs KHAN, woonjing up 2:1Neo.G_soulkey vs great

Game starts off like your normal ZvZ, with great going overpool and SoulKey doing 12 hatch. SoulKey is forced to put down spores to fend off the faster mutas. Game draws on without any Major muta engagement so SoulKey starts teching toward hive and gets queen. great, decides to take a rather fast third. SoulKey gets devourer. but great gets hydras, this was probably the First time I saw hydras in a Modern professional ZvZ (keep in mind hydras do 5 damage to mutas not 10 because of explosive damage).

SoulKey tries to take out great's third and nearly succeeds.

but SoulKey's muta/scourge/devourer/queen are fended off by great's Hydra/muta/scourge

great then morph some hydras Into lurkers and busts SoulKey's Natural.

while the Game was very interesting and showed many under-used units in ZvZ, what caught my attention the most was the post-game interview.

The Lurkers Really stood out.It wasn't a showmanship, but a strategy in order to Win. I think you May be able to see a Hydra-Lurker battle in one or two years. I want to show everyone more entertaining Zerg versus Zerg matches from now on. From now on I want to try different kinds of strategies in Zerg matches and I want to be person to lead that trend.

In this game, ZerO uses muta/queen to trash RorO who uses a standard muta/scourge composition. the video showing off an harass trick using ensnare earlier in the article is taken from this game...

and This morning,

*SEVERE SPOILER AHEAD*

I would just like to point out that in ALL of the previous games, including ZerO vs type-b, the Build orders were 9 pool (but not 9 pool speed) or overpool for one of the players and 12 hatch for the other. This is important since 12 hatch gets mutas significantly later for one of the player, thus, that player is forced to spore up to deal with the mutas early on. With the spores in place, being aggressive early on with his mutas is much harder for the 1 basing player while the 2 basing player don't have the muta count to be aggressive right away. so the 1 basing player usually will take his Natural and the Game will often go Into late-game.

On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote:About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.

but in this Game, great went for a 12 pool while ZerO went for a 12 hatch. Yet, even though ZerO's mutas production was not significantly behind great's(from the vod around 15 seconds after, clearly not enough to force you to get 2 spores, thus ZerO planned to get these spores and go into late game no matter his opponent's build), yet he still got spore colonies and prepared himself for a long Game by getting his queen nest up. Meanwhile, great massed more mutas and engages ZerO in a muta Battle.

ZerO BARELY manages to survive the muta battle by adding new spores and by puling off good ensnares. Having traded armies, great adds a rather fast third base and gets a Hydra den with a 4th hatchery. great's unique touch to late-game ZvZ is that he likes hydras and he stays on lair for quite a long time. Meanwhile ZerO get's a greater spire for devourers. great puts spores in his base and both players are alright with teching. As soon as devourers pop, ZerO moves out with his forces while taking a third base but great's spore/muta/hydras defense is too strong for ZerO to get any Major damage done. Both players get double defiler mound up for fast plague but ZerO also makes a Hydra den. great also takes a fourth base. ZerO takes his own fourth and both players get lurkers.

from then on the Game was composed of defiler snipes using broodlings, hydralurk/ling defiler forces clashing, doom drops, and a final transition Into ultras by both players..

great plays a very creative late Game ZvZ. whilst every other zergs like to tech and get defilers/devourers and queens out quickly. great plays a very defensive Style and gets hydras to defend against the mutas while taking a fast third base...he then transitions Into an hydralurk army. This very economic Style of late-game ZvZ has been working very well so far.

the most important part about this morning's Game though... is not the pure epicness of it but rather the fact that for the First time, one of the two players(ZerO) decided to put down spores even though he did not need them to survive and thus decided to send the Game Into the late-game. Every single game before that was he 12 hatching player FORCED to put down spores and the game was FORCED to go into late-game.

changes are happening in ZvZ, and much faster then anyone thought possible, 33 days ago, great predicted that we could Start seeing hydralurk battles in a year or two. Yet this morning we saw the First one. this new trend spearheaded by ZerO and great is sure to make ZvZ a VERY interesting match-up and no longer the part Where you go take a snack and wait for an Actually good game.

Only time will tell if this is Just a temporary trend or the End of an Era.

Edit: I just want to make clear that I am NOT saying that getting spores to go into late-game is BETTER but rather that this is currently a possible road ZvZs might take once in a while

ok so I already talked about ZerO sending the game into late-game deliberately by building uneeded spores in ZerO vs Great

well here Effort basically took the concept to another level...completely.

Both players go 12 pool with hyuk putting his second hatch inbase and Effort putting his second hatch at his mineral only.

at around 3:15 Effort takes ANOTHER expansion so he is now at 3 base and two gas... of course this delays Effort's Lair a lot and his mutas will never be in time to block hyuk's mutas, so Effort puts down 1 or 2 spore colonies at each of his three base and drone-up, being off 3 hatches, Effort can keep a higher ling count then hyuk and force hyuk to spend larva into zerglings to keep up.

Once hyuk's mutas arrive at destination, they have a little surprise in the form of spores and no mutas out for Effort...

hyuk starts massing his muta ball while Effort produce a pretty massive(for ZvZ) amount of drones and tries to get lair running... Hyuk tries to snipe the spore at Effort's third but hyuk manages to get new spores just in time... Effort is rolling on such a larger Economy that he can easily afford to spend drones making spores.

sadly hyuk fails because of the new spores morphing

Hyuk then tries to break Effort's mineral only with a large mutaling force but gets fended off by Effort's simcity and 3 hatches worth of lingpump.

it looks like it will work

reinforcements from 3 hatch imba

Effort finally starts his spire...9:15 into the game(lol)

at 10:00 hyuk takes his second base (gas)

at 11:00 Effort's takes his fourth base at the 10 o'clock while hyuk takes his mineral only.

at 11:30 Efforts first mutas pop and he makes a queen's nest

Effort then starts harassing hyuk's drone line (a luxury Hyuk can't afford since Effort's bases are covered with spores) Effort also does a magnificient job of avoiding muta battles because he still is on inferior muta count for now.

With hive done Effort makes a nydus canal...

[center]I sense something cheesy[/center]

Hyuk moves in to finish Effort's fourth but Effort attacks hyuk's third at the same time with a crackling(yes crackling) and muta force...forcing hyuk to back off and manages to snipe off Effort's mineral only and his spire. Yet in the midst of all this crisis... an Image says a 1000 word they say?

Effort attacks hyuk's mineral only

ninja nydus

I think that spawning pool will go down

(the spire got sniped by Effort's mutas...could not highlit that with a picture)

with both the spire and the pool down and sitting on only 2 base against his opponents 4, hyuk tries a last muta/ling break and is finished off swiftly.

Coach is happy

with this game Effort showed again, and very shortly after ZerO did, that it is possible to force lategame ZvZ to happen AND NOT JUST ON THRIATLON (aimed at those who said Zero's play only worked cause it was thriatlon). now some might argue that this play is only possible on maps with easy minerals only... maybe that's true or maybe not, only time (and EffOrt) will tell.

Edit: here is a nice post by GHOSTCLAW, telling how he thinks this new, turtlier style of zerg is due to the maps getting bigger and 12 hatch becoming a more "standard" opening

On July 19 2010 14:07 GHOSTCLAW wrote:I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.

Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.

I think it was just a one time thing. Zero just stopped mutalisk production because he was afraid of plague/spores, but I think if he continued with that he would have won. It was a crazy and cool game, though.

On July 16 2010 06:01 Crunchums wrote:You can't ignore that the game was played on Triathalon, which is a pretty crazy map for ZvZ.

that is true, yet there have been a large amount(compared to what we used to have that is) of long ZvZ lately and they are not all on Thriatlon

I just want to make clear that I am not saying that this WILL happen or that getting spores to get the game into late-game is BETTER but rather that it might become a possibility.

On July 16 2010 06:07 deathgod6 wrote:I think it was just a one time thing. Zero just stopped mutalisk production because he was afraid of plague/spores, but I think if he continued with that he would have won. It was a crazy and cool game, though.

hmm I am not sure... great's hydralurk army was pretty damn powerful ...especially with swarm and plague support. You must also consider it probably worked for great MANY MANY times in practice for he to do it i such an important game. Ground army late-game ZvZ is all up to great at the moment.

(considering what Great said in his interview I think we will see these kind of plays from him a lot more often from now on)

Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).

Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."

On July 16 2010 09:39 Fiel wrote:I always wondered why progamers used 600m/600g on mutalisks against an opponent that could block him with a measly 300 - 500m worth of static defenses across 2 hatcheries.

Uh... because those defenses across 2 hatcheries don't defend anywhere else on the map? The player with mutas can just expand anywhere.

On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote:Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).

while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)

Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.

On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote:Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).

while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)

Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.

Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.

Like I said, the only time a ZvZ goes to late game is under ridiculous circumstances (like that JD vs YEllow game where jaedong is in a sizeable disadvantage so he starts to hide behind spores) or an obscure map (triathalon)

Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy

Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."

On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote:Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).

while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)

Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.

Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy

??????

I'm the guy who wrote the article about Dreamliner that is in "on the spotlight"... maybe that's why my ID rings a bell. Edit: also...the only thing I post in tourney is woonjing fighting or Oz fighting or Hiya= mega baller so I doubt it's meEdit: personnal attacks DON"T WIN ARGUMENTS btwyou don't actually get spores if you are in an advantage ZvZ... 12 hatch against 9 pool you will get spores because your mutas are out much later and you need some way to fend off the first mutas.

and If I recall Jaedong was in a fairly bad situation after losing 4 drones defending against the lings(if I recall).

so what was SO important about this morning's game was that ZerO showed he could purposefully FORCE the ZvZ to get into late-game... all the other ZvZ before that were 9 pool(not speed) vs 12 hatch so 12 hatch would still get spores...but against their will to defend against the mutas.

now you are right that it is rare to see a ZvZ get into late game but we just had 4 late game ZvZ in a month...we used to get that like once a year? I doubt this is coincidental, players are starting to get spore more often now, again we will need quite a bit of time (and more great/zerO ZvZ goodness) to find out if ZvZ is actually changing or if it will stay the same forever.

On July 16 2010 11:20 SubtleArt wrote:

Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.

Did you watch the games??

Great did get a good load of mutas... just that instead of teching toward queen, devourers like every other zerg once late-game ZvZ comes around Great techs to hydras...of course you die if you don't get mutas NO ONE is EVER gonna argue against that, and also yes you can get a hive and tech...the minerals spent on getting a queen/devourers will FAR outweigh the mutas you don't have in your army. Getting a queen is standard in ZvZ(if you have spores...which you have if the game reached this point). just that little queen will give you a massive edge once the big muta battle comes around.(a 18% edge)

On July 16 2010 06:01 Crunchums wrote:You can't ignore that the game was played on Triathalon, which is a pretty crazy map for ZvZ.

that is true, yet there have been a large amount(compared to what we used to have that is) of long ZvZ lately and they are not all on Triathlon

I just want to make clear that I am not saying that this WILL happen or that getting spores to get the game into late-game is BETTER but rather that it might become a possibility.

Well it's like you said; these sorts of ZvZ's happen when one player is forced to go spores and then the game stalemates. Higher tech (eg ensnare, plague, devs) is really effective in ZvZ, the problem is without the stalemate part you can't get there without dieing.

Getting spores to get in to the late game and higher tech is not something you go into the game planning on doing. My point is that Triathalon is an exception to this rule.

I think there's tons of unexplored depth in the ZvZ matchup once you reach the point where you can tech to anything other than a spire without dieing. But going spores is only really something you do when you are forced to and if you're making them otherwise you should get destroyed and I don't think it's possible to plan your games so that you always reach that point; too much relies on your opponents build.

On July 16 2010 09:39 Fiel wrote:I always wondered why progamers used 600m/600g on mutalisks against an opponent that could block him with a measly 300 - 500m worth of static defenses across 2 hatcheries.

Because your econ will be fucked; that "measly" 300 - 500m also represents about a fourth of your drone count. Meanwhile your opponent has free reign to do whatever the fuck they want while you are scrambling to not die to lings.

On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote:Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).

while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)

Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.

Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy

??????

I'm the guy who wrote the article about Dreamliner that is in "on the spotlight"... maybe that's why my ID rings a bell. Edit: also...the only thing I post in tourney is woonjing fighting or Oz fighting or Hiya= mega baller so I doubt it's meEdit: personnal attacks DON"T WIN ARGUMENTS btwyou don't actually get spores if you are in an advantage ZvZ... 12 hatch against 9 pool you will get spores because your mutas are out much later and you need some way to fend off the first mutas.

and If I recall Jaedong was in a fairly bad situation after losing 4 drones defending against the lings(if I recall).

so what was SO important about this morning's game was that ZerO showed he could purposefully FORCE the ZvZ to get into late-game... all the other ZvZ before that were 9 pool(not speed) vs 12 hatch so 12 hatch would still get spores...but against their will to defend against the mutas.

now you are right that it is rare to see a ZvZ get into late game but we just had 4 late game ZvZ in a month...we used to get that like once a year? I doubt this is coincidental, players are starting to get spore more often now, again we will need quite a bit of time (and more great/zerO ZvZ goodness) to find out if ZvZ is actually changing or if it will stay the same forever.

Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.

Did you watch the games??

Great did get a good load of mutas... just that instead of teching toward queen, devourers like every other zerg once late-game ZvZ comes around Great techs to hydras...of course you die if you don't get mutas NO ONE is EVER gonna argue against that, and also yes you can get a hive and tech...the minerals spent on getting a queen/devourers will FAR outweigh the mutas you don't have in your army. Getting a queen is standard in ZvZ(if you have spores...which you have if the game reached this point). just that little queen will give you a massive edge once the big muta battle comes around.(a 18% edge)

No you don't have the time to get hive, nor do u have the time to get a queens nest and queen in a normal ZvZ. All you're pointing out in this thread are exceptions and your whole premise is basically "well we're seeing more exceptions than usual so somethings changing". First of all 4 isn't that much considering all the ZvZs played. Those games were all exceptions to normal ZvZ and for a reason. Also Triathlon is a weird fucking map, (thats the only example u have of a zerg going lategame "because he just wants to". If going late game were truly a strat great loved and thought was awesome and flexible we'd see it a lot more, not just under freak circumstances (which is what all of these games are). Absolutely nothing is gonna change in ZvZ. You can PM me in 1 month, 2 months, 10 months, or on your deathbed to confirm im right. Also zergs DO get spores on cases other than 12h vs 9p, for example when their muta ball is smaller and they have no choice (see yellow vs saint).

Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.

Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."

About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.

I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.

"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."

On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote:About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.

I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.

That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,

thanks for your input

I will edit this to OP

On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:

Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.

I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,

well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,

I think its wrong to compare lings to spores with regards to min only. If you look at the fact that the more eco player will have more min (drones), and all gas is already being spent on muta/scourge, then getting spores makes the most sense, which then leads to a longer game naturally.

I think there is some good theorycrafting potential in here (who doesn't love theorycrafting?). A strategy that looks to reach hive tech with a 3rd will probably need to prioritize: lower unit count / higher static count, defensive posture - less freedom to harass or punish, scouting - just enough expendable units to keep track of whether your opponent is massing, expanding, or teching.

If a strategy can survive a mass ling and/or muta break at any time while staying even on bases and ahead on tech, then it's hypothetically a superior strategy to the norm if the Hive tech and strong economy make up for your insufficient units and give you a timing to strike your opponent (the duration for which they are lacking in technology).

I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.

I've felt for the most part like these types of ZvZ's are somewhat the result of poor players, in that top line ZvZers could kill their opponents before the late game. However, Jaedong getting into a game like this changed my perspective. great and ZerO are also not poor ZvZers either, despite the latter's much noted woes in the match-up.

So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.

On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote:I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.

So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.

Thanks,

well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable

hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works