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Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

While I understand that vertical progression does indeed bar a player from the majority of content and currently forces the player base to be split among each other; I love vertical progression. Not for the fact that it separates the player base but because I enjoy having a high level curve to achieve.

My favorite leveling system that I've ever played with was Warhammer Online. They essentially had two forms of progression. The first was your actual PvE progression and once you maxed that out you still had your RvR progression. This allowed me to have a goal post PvE level cap.

I don't believe it's the leveling system that's the issue; so much as it's how developers are implementing it currently. The leveling progression is too fast and is greatly tiered which in turn splits the player base. Take for example Neverwinter Online, if you're a moderately good MMO player you'll reach the level cap in roughly 1-2 weeks. This is a major issue.

(1) You're leveling so quickly that it makes the content during the progression of the game almost completely worthless and I personally love actually being able to use the rare gear from dungeons and loot drops.

(2) Players only tend to play with each other only when they're doing dungeons or at the end game due to the different speeds at which people progress. Which results in lack of communication.

If a developer is going to implement a leveling based progression system they need to make the stats in which you obtain from leveling much more subtle. By lowering the stat bonuses from leveling you balance out the issue of higher level players being significantly stronger than lower level players. I'd also suggest slowing the leveling down or greatly increasing the leveling cap depending on how fast the progression in the game is.

I know many people don't have the "time" for them to spend grinding all the time in an MMO but lets face it. Leveling quickly in these games is a major issue and it takes a lot of the achievement and fun out of the game. I don't quite understand why people play MMO's for the "end game" I suppose people just love raiding. However, when I get to end game that's essentially telling me that the developer has no more gameplay for me to experience and it's time to find a game worthy of occupying my time.

Good points.

It would seem alot of the problem is not vertical progres but speed of progression, in todays games its easy to out level content, and friends/guild members in a matter of hours .

I would say slowing down progression tends to allow players to more frequently stay in the same level range, allows players to enjoy the content more fully (rather then accidently level right past it) and makes the actual progression rewards more fulfilling , as people tend to appreciate things they actually worked for more then things that were just given to them or easily aquired. unfortunately most times these days people don't understand this are tend to be the I want it NOW instant gratification type that complain when they do get it now that its not what they thought it would be and want more of something else (Now!) In short they don't understand it was they themselves that destroyed any enjoyment they would have gotten due to the ease they demanded it be given to them.

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Personally I'm a fan of diagonal progression, but I definitely agree that designers rely far too heavily on vertical progression and far too little on horizontal (for many reasons not discussed yet; hopefully I'll have time to articulate some later). e.g., an overemphasis on vertical progression makes it incredibly difficult to balance the game and manage power creep.

However, GW2 is NOT a good example of horizontal progression. In fact, it's a rather bad one. Horizontal progression fails when you bottleneck the extensibility and flexibility of the rewards. e.g., if I'm learning new skills that I'll never use, even though I might theoretically have a more diverse skill set, in reality, I'm rewarded with... nothing. You can't even change classes in GW2. As a result, there's a great deal of emphasis on vertical progression. There's only a significant amount of unrealized potential for horizontal progression, but a combination of making those rewards useless or just unusable COMPLETELY undercuts it.

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Horizontal progression is never the same amount of power, fundamentally it is suppose to be the same power with different options, but since no unlike options are perfectly balanced in these games, in practice something different is more powerful or weaker, likewise options equal more power.

It's just like a fighting game or MOBA where one player has all the characters and the other has one. The player with options can only have an advantage as his worst option is to mirror match.

And all of that is to assume horizontal options aren't cumulative. Unless they are sacrificing one option for another, the accumulation of options on one unit are very powerful, the biggest difference is that different actions are far more interesting than the same action with more power.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

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There are two games that come to mind that did Horizontal progression well TO ME.

First is Diablo 2. Yes there were best builds for classes and such but there were still many different viable builds that could still do the content, balance issues are well balance issues and is just a sign of failing at balance. End game was about PvP for some or creating builds to others. The different builds did things differently, some where good at different things aside from the most imba builds many builds were viable and there was not as significant of power creep as the game released more and more patches. Yes there was vertical progression I never said vertical progression was bad simply that the end game had good Horizontal progression.

Next is the Monster Hunter series and probably a much better example. Again yes there is Vertical Progression but again I am not saying vertical progression is bad. In this game though monsters of the same type get faster and have new mechanics based on the rank of the mission. Next is after you get to the highest rank is where to game really starts. There are no best weapons, each weapon has advantages and disadvantages based on the monster or a players play style. There are no BiS items. None not a single one. MH3U you can make a Lance build based on dodging or a Lance build based on blocking using different sets of armor to achieve different sets of armor skills. Not to mention gear is no replacement in this game for skill.

Again there are imbalances with the game with a team using Slime weapons in MH3U but that is a balance issue not something that was intended.

These both have Vertical progression as well as Horizontal progression. An issue with many MMOs to me is they don't have a good balance of both. As already stated by many WoW and its expansions are probably the worst offender of Vertical progression with no Horizontal progression.

The issue being that you can't really play a class different as time goes on, they always play the same. Specs don't change inside them selves. An Arms warrior will always be an Arms warrior and will never play differently, the spec is limited to one play style and no amount of gear will change the way the class is played. Unlike a game like Monster Hunter where each person can be using the same weapon type while using different weapons inside that type with different advantages and have a set of armor that completely changes the way they play.

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1) It's fucking boring and everyone is fed up with the same old crap from every MMO in existence.

If so, why millions are still playing MMOs?

Why are almost all of them failing to reach their projected numbers and going F2P, yet a recent game with very little vertical progression (GW2) smoked just about every release since WoW? That's a better question.

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1) It's fucking boring and everyone is fed up with the same old crap from every MMO in existence.

If so, why millions are still playing MMOs?

Why are almost all of them failing to reach their projected numbers and going F2P, yet a recent game with very little vertical progression (GW2) smoked just about every release since WoW? That's a better question.

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very nice post Sengi.

i agree almost entirely with everything you said.

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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and the number 1 recent why those 10 good reasons failed to change the way MMO is designed .....

People like vertical progression, and the skinner box works.

except for all the people that have started leaving MMOs.......

and the vast majority of gamers (who positively DWARF the MMO niche) who never played them, or barely played them because of how crappy they are.

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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1) It's fucking boring and everyone is fed up with the same old crap from every MMO in existence.

If so, why millions are still playing MMOs?

Why are billions not playing MMOs?

indeed. 8)

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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guess what ELSE is not primarily horizontal in most MMORPGs? EVERYTHING ELSE TOO!

lol

way to completely miss the whole point of the thread with your usual irrelevance to the topic.

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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1) It's fucking boring and everyone is fed up with the same old crap from every MMO in existence.

If so, why millions are still playing MMOs?

Why are billions not playing MMOs?

Because they don't have computers, internet, or food?

no.

EXISTING GAMERS that hate MMOs.

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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Originally posted by BahamutKaiserActually Dogblaster, horizontal development is almost always more enjoyable, if not for the horizontal changes coupled in vertical progression, you'd be doing the exact same thing at LVL 80 as LVL 1, just more damage, the addition of AoE strikes, lunge attacks, slow on your magic spell, all of these are actually horizontal, they are adding different actions, not empowering existing ones linearly.

yup. people are too simple minded on the issue, the same way they are with the sandbox vs. theme park crap.

most people act like you are only one or the other.

as you said, all current MMOs are a mix of vertical and horizontal progression.....RIGHT NOW.

this isn't about switching from one form of progression to the other.

its about turning one down, and amplifying the other. its remixing.

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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Originally posted by BahamutKaiserHorizontal progression is never the same amount of power, fundamentally it is suppose to be the same power with different options, but since no unlike options are perfectly balanced in these games, in practice something different is more powerful or weaker, likewise options equal more power.

It's just like a fighting game or MOBA where one player has all the characters and the other has one. The player with options can only have an advantage as his worst option is to mirror match.

And all of that is to assume horizontal options aren't cumulative. Unless they are sacrificing one option for another, the accumulation of options on one unit are very powerful, the biggest difference is that different actions are far more interesting than the same action with more power.

yep. great points.

as you say, even when the design attempts to be purely horizontal, some verticality is inevitable

The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects