Who is gonna organize the attack on Stern at expo and demand answers from them on the spot? Or will it be the usual ass kissing contest?
Need to hammer away like this thread until they cave!
Tie yourselves together in a human blockade and block off the exits until we get some info!

Or no one attends! That would send a clearer message that people are not happy.

And now we have the latest news that Deeproot will offer a 10 year playfield warranty.
10 years.
Yes, it's still all talk but boy if they deliver, Stern and co have every right to be getting pretty worried.

Who is gonna organize the attack on Stern at expo and demand answers from them on the spot? Or will it be the usual ass kissing contest?
Need to hammer away like this thread until they cave!
Tie yourselves together in a human blockade and block off the exits until we get some info!

You know if a verbal question attack is staged on Jack, he will have Martin edit it out. Just like his attack on Gary was edited out from the 2011 TPF video that's out there.

I've never had a post do that to me in 22 years... badly placed or not.

Not necessarily the placement its the type ... it gets repeatedly nailed and sld have been designed stronger and have a nut on the other side with a washer so it dont give as much. Also with art under it and the playfield issues this is gonna cause it to mess the playfield up unfortunately.

I'm predicting a very tense and awkward Stern talk at Expo where they cling to the narrative that there are very few machines affected, and those affected should talk to their distros. And that is all that will be said.

That won’t work very well if there are 100 unhappy Stern customers all asking the same thing. Denial at that level will backfire. Expo will be interesting - the first big pinball expo since this problem became so widely known and so large in scope and machines affected. Especially with the newest ones coming off the line. Can’t wait to hear reports back. I can’t make this one or I’d be there also.

That won’t work very well if there are 100 unhappy Stern customers all asking the same thing. Denial at that level will backfire. Expo will be interesting - the first big pinball expo since this problem became so widely known and so large in scope and machines affected. Especially with the newest ones coming off the line. Can’t wait to hear reports back. I can’t make this one or I’d be there also.

That won’t work very well if there are 100 unhappy Stern customers all asking the same thing. Denial at that level will backfire. Expo will be interesting - the first big pinball expo since this problem became so widely known and so large in scope and machines affected. Especially with the newest ones coming off the line. Can’t wait to hear reports back. I can’t make this one or I’d be there also.

I’m not sure it’s very widely known though. When I brought it up at our weekly pinball league, even some of the route operators had not heard of it. I made sure to relay my first hand experience and point them to the pinside thread as well. Unfortunately, I think Stern is being somewhat successful in sweeping this under the rug

I’m not sure it’s very widely known though. When I brought it up at our weekly pinball league, even some of the route operators had not heard of it. I made sure to relay my first hand experience and point them to the pinside thread as well. Unfortunately, I think Stern is being somewhat successful in sweeping this under the rug

What exactly has Stern done that could be seen as “sweeping this under the rug”?

What exactly has Stern done that could be seen as “sweeping this under the rug”?

It's not what they've done, it's what they have NOT done, which is not personally calling us at home, knocking on our front doors, or sending us dear Mr/Mrs pinball owner letters, saying "We regret to inform you...."

Adding washers instead of dealing with the actual problem for starters...

Yeah, not getting it right doesn’t qualify as “sweeping it under the rug” in my opinion.
Appears as though they tried fixing it but their fix wasn’t successful.
Whereas “sweeping it under the rug” has a much more sinister meaning, in my opinion.

What exactly has Stern done that could be seen as “sweeping this under the rug”?

How about making public statements saying its not a widespread issue... then turn around and quietly change your builds to include washers... then change the art on a game to avoid it.. all while not acknowledging the issue for what it is?

It's typical stern.... try to handle everything on a 'case by case basis' to minimize exposure and do everything possible to avoid publicizing the issue... including denial.

How about making public statements saying its not a widespread issue... then turn around and quietly change your builds to include washers... then change the art on a game to avoid it.. all while not acknowledging the issue for what it is?
It's typical stern.... try to handle everything on a 'case by case basis' to minimize exposure and do everything possible to avoid publicizing the issue... including denial.

It's business, and why would they offer a playfield to those guys who dont think it's a big deal. Everyone wants something for free and if Stern publicly announced its offering replacements, even those (stop looking at your playfield with a magnifying glass) tools would be right in line with their hands out like everyone else lol

I’m not sure it’s very widely known though. When I brought it up at our weekly pinball league, even some of the route operators had not heard of it. I made sure to relay my first hand experience and point them to the pinside thread as well. Unfortunately, I think Stern is being somewhat successful in sweeping this under the rug

There's some truth in this. I know a few OPs and they had no clue this was happening until I told them and we looked at some of their machines and sure as hell post pooling was present. Silence will always be cheaper

How about making public statements saying its not a widespread issue... then turn around and quietly change your builds to include washers... then change the art on a game to avoid it.. all while not acknowledging the issue for what it is?
It's typical stern.... try to handle everything on a 'case by case basis' to minimize exposure and do everything possible to avoid publicizing the issue... including denial.

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More? You tell me. Stern has made changes the fix the issue which is light chipping around a couple posts, that doesn’t affect gameplay.
I don’t want an imperfect playfield any more than anyone else, but from their view, I doubt this is an issue worthy of stopping the production lines.
Hopefully they’ll replace some of the playfields with the biggest issues, but from a legal standpoint, I doubt it’s in their best interest to make an announcement, drawing people’s attention to light pooling, for the most part -that doesn’t even affect gameplay.
Now, let’s agree that there are different ways they could have handled this, and that you would have liked something different. Fine.
But that’s not the same as stating that they’re sweeping the issue under the rug. In fact, they changed the process and that seems to have fixed the issue.
I would expect they’ll continue to deal with some owners on a case by case basis, as warranted -but I expect that they won’t replace playfields for every owner who found light pooling after reading Pinside and rushing down to inspect their machines.

Who is gonna organize the attack on Stern at expo and demand answers from them on the spot? Or will it be the usual ass kissing contest?
Need to hammer away like this thread until they cave!
Tie yourselves together in a human blockade and block off the exits until we get some info!

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More? You tell me. Stern has made changes the fix the issue which is light chipping around a couple posts, that doesn’t affect gameplay.
I don’t want an imperfect playfield any more than anyone else, but from their view, I doubt this is an issue worthy of stopping the production lines.
Hopefully they’ll replace some of the playfields with the biggest issues, but from a legal standpoint, I doubt it’s in their best interest to make an announcement, drawing people’s attention to light pooling, for the most part -that doesn’t even affect gameplay.
Now, let’s agree that there are different ways they could have handled this, and that you would have liked something different. Fine.
But that’s not the same as stating that they’re sweeping the issue under the rug. In fact, they changed the process and that seems to have fixed the issue.
I would expect they’ll continue to deal with some owners on a case by case basis, as warranted -but I expect that they won’t replace playfields for every owner who found light pooling after reading Pinside and rushing down to inspect their machines.

You asked how they are sweeping it under the rug.. I answered that question. Dismissal... while quietly directly trying to cope with it to make it go away.

It's widespread enough that they invested time and resources to rework the game already in production. That should tell you all you need to know if it was materially significant or not.

We've seen this posture from Stern over and over and over. Be it splitting cabinets... ghosting inserts... failing cabinet decals... cratering PFs.. and now, wrinkling top coat. Stern bogs customers down by forcing claims through the distributors, while providing miserable support to the distributors for the issue, and using the pain and effort as a way to help minimize the number of claims. Then, hide resolutions behind 'case by case' basis policies that again drag customers through the mud of uncertain standards and no published guidelines to hold employees for accountability in decisions.

Deny, make it painful, and those that still manage to get through, scrutinize, and deal with the least number of failures as possible. It's the Stern way.. and always has been.

How widespread is it then, Flynn? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More?

Why in the hell would this matter? If even ONE game had a problem, it should be fixed - immediately. That's what being a manufacturer of products is. You put out a product, and then you support said product.

Why in the hell would this matter? If even ONE game had a problem, it should be fixed - immediately. That's what being a manufacturer of products is. You put out a product, and then you support said product.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Follow the post. The context was that Stern had said it’s not a widespread issue and Flynn states it is.

How widespread is it then? What percentage of owners have reported issues to Stern? 1%? 5%? More?

I doubt this is an issue worthy of stopping the production lines.

More. I have heard >10% from multiple distributors (and that’s only the games they are aware of). Obviously we won’t ever know the scope unless Stern releases more info (unlikely).

And, FYI, they already stopped the production lines to replace the JP playfields with the new design without the artwork under the posts.

Unfortunately, Stern now apparently considers pooling normal so I suspect there will be even more pushback when distributors try to get resolution for their impacted customers. Maybe a route operator sees pooling as a minor issue; most home buyers do not.

Not my point. Regardless of the stance of whether the problem is widespread or not, the issue should be given attention. And Stern's not giving it.
-wonka owner #08742206, play field #105, clear coat case #5107

Dude, you’re way out in left field. Nobody said issues should or should not be remedied.
The discussion was that Stern has stated it’s not widespread.
That’s all.

Dude, you’re way out in left field. Nobody said issues should or should not be remedied.
The discussion was that Stern has stated it’s not widespread.
That’s all.
Good luck with your Wonka.

If it’s true that Stern stopped the JP line to address the issue I’d say that’s proof enough it’s fairly widespread, if it was a couple playfields here and there you would think simply removing them from the line would be sufficient.

More. I have heard &gt;10% from multiple distributors (and that’s only the games they are aware of). Obviously we won’t ever know the scope unless Stern releases more info (unlikely).
And, FYI, they already stopped the production lines to replace the JP playfields with the new design without the artwork under the posts.
Unfortunately, Stern now apparently considers pooling normal so I suspect there will be even more pushback when distributors try to get resolution for their impacted customers. Maybe a route operator sees pooling as a minor issue; most home buyers do not.

And there’s a whole other interesting topic of discussion. Pooling.
ASSUMING it’s only ever pooling, and doesn’t get to chipping, should Stern pay to replace entire playfields? Not in my opinion.
Should they replace playfields with minor chipping near a post? I sure hope they do, cause I like my playfields perfect -but that’s the “collector” approach that I have. Assuming the chip doesn’t affect the gameplay, and the game still works as intended, why would a company offer to pay the costs of replacing playfields? Especially when they’ve previously syptated that playfields aren’t under warranty.
Only if it drastically affects future sales, is the answer.

Damn, I seriously hope we never get to paying for extended warranties as is common in some industries.

If it’s true that Stern stopped the JP line to address the issue I’d say that’s proof enough it’s fairly widespread, if it was a couple playfields here and there you would think simply removing them from the line would be sufficient.

Disagree. They may have noticed that it was 100% of playfields for a 1 week period and that they needed to fix it moving forward, but that 1 week worth of pins isn’t considered “widespread” in the grand scheme of things.
Something worthy of fixing does not indicate “widespread”.
Does it?

And there’s a whole other interesting topic of discussion. Pooling.
ASSUMING it’s only ever pooling, and doesn’t get to chipping, should Stern pay to replace entire playfields? Not in my opinion.
Should they replace playfields with minor chipping near a post? I sure hope they do, cause I like my playfields perfect -but that’s the “collector” approach that I have. Assuming the chip doesn’t affect the gameplay, and the game still works as intended, why would a company offer to pay the costs of replacing playfields? Especially when they’ve previously syptated that playfields aren’t under warranty.
Only if it drastically affects future sales, is the answer.
Damn, I seriously hope we never get to paying for extended warranties as is common in some industries.

What happens if you have pooling now and massive chipping in two years?

Disagree. They may have noticed that it was 100% of playfields for a 1 week period and that they needed to fix it moving forward, but that 1 week worth of pins isn’t considered “widespread” in the grand scheme of things.
Something worthy of fixing does not indicate “widespread”.
Does it?

So thoose saying they have chipping on beatles, maiden etc are all liars?

So thoose saying they have chipping on beatles, maiden etc are all liars?

No, of course not. I never said that anyone was a liar.
The discussion is whether there are enough issues to be called “widespread”.

I’ve posted enough on the subject as expressed my opinion.
You are all welcome to your own, and I respect that, truly.

I’m just not a fan if people labelling Stern when I don’t think they are intentionally deceiving anyone.
Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallets and avoid future pins u til such time as you feel supported enough to purchase.

No, of course not. I never said that anyone was a liar.
The discussion is whether there are enough issues to be called “widespread”.
I’ve posted enough on the subject as expressed my opinion.
You are all welcome to your own, and I respect that, truly.
I’m just not a fan if people labelling Stern when I don’t think they are intentionally deceiving anyone.
Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallets and avoid future pins u til such time as you feel supported enough to purchase.

I'm not crazy pissed, i havent got a dog in this, since i dont own either.
I just think it's frekkin disasterous managed by both stern, and esp jjp.
Jjp must have well known the mirpoo issues on pirates, so why the fuk do they release mirpoo wonka?
Lawler did an awesome game, only to be tarnished by a crap pf manufacturer.
Come the fuk clean and sort it out proper, not this washer, no paint shite, and make good on the customers. I realise they are cornered now and esp jjp probably would cave on total replacements, but come clean, there must be another solution, the way both companies are doing it now, is just digging a bigger hole.
Sorry for crap english /rant off.

Disagree. They may have noticed that it was 100% of playfields for a 1 week period and that they needed to fix it moving forward, but that 1 week worth of pins isn’t considered “widespread” in the grand scheme of things.
Something worthy of fixing does not indicate “widespread”.
Does it?

The problem has spanned multiple titles over titles shipped over multiple months. Hypotheticals that use ideas like 'playfields from one week' are disingenuous and dismissive. The problem clearly has been widespread... the affected percentage may be low vs the total.. but it's certainly not an isolated incident or momentary issue.

"worthy of fixing" is a balance of cost vs gain (or risk). Clearly Stern invested in the cost side of the equation to get JP fields reworked with new designs quickly... that alone projects what stern thought the other side of the equation meant.

And there’s a whole other interesting topic of discussion. Pooling.
ASSUMING it’s only ever pooling, and doesn’t get to chipping, should Stern pay to replace entire playfields? Not in my opinion.
Should they replace playfields with minor chipping near a post? I sure hope they do, cause I like my playfields perfect -but that’s the “collector” approach that I have. Assuming the chip doesn’t affect the gameplay, and the game still works as intended, why would a company offer to pay the costs of replacing playfields? Especially when they’ve previously syptated that playfields aren’t under warranty.
Only if it drastically affects future sales, is the answer.
Damn, I seriously hope we never get to paying for extended warranties as is common in some industries.

My playfield chipped in under 3 weeks of ownership. I have pooling/blistering at basically every post. Bottom line if Stern doesn't take care of me as a customer I will never do business with them again regardless what their "warranty" states. Not standing behind a product less then 30 days old qualifies as bad customer service to me and such a company doesn't deserve my money. Does Stern care? Guess I will find out eventually... My case has been open for about 4 weeks now and am still waiting for Stern to respond.

Just thought I would post what I see re: the clearcoat on the one JP2LE on location in my region. I'm lucky enough that it's just a mile away at the wonderful Tilt Pinball Bar.

So, I see...

1. A much thinner layer of clear, but I *don't* see any rough areas from insufficient coverage - the shooter lane, for instance.

2. A ring in the graphics surrounding the bases of various posts.

3. Plenty of typical dimpling, in particular around the truck toy - and this game was *just* installed. I saw it after three days of action, so it may have had 150 plays on it, tops.

If I had to deduce Stern's fix based on what I see, I would say they have *not* changed their playfield vendor, but instead have simply asked them to apply less clear. I can only guess if the clear being applied is truly a new formulation, but it seems plausible that it's same OSHA-compliant water-based clear that first appeared on IMDN playfields eighteen months ago. My sincere hope was that Stern would be pressured into making real/permanent changes to their playfields with respect to hardness/durability, but I see no evidence of that in this example at least. I do see a beautiful JP2LE though. Wow!

For what it's worth, I build musical instruments as a hobby, and there is a known issue with lacquer pooling around the guitar tuners on the headstock. I don't know if it is a similar cause here, but with regard to guitars -- if this happens, it has almost everything to do with curing. Here are some factors:

- 3 thin coats spaced 30 minutes apart, then a full nights cure, then repeat the next day. Then allow a few weeks before tightening the guitar tuners on. This allows the solvents to evaporate correctly between sprays. Applying too thick of a coat too soon will trap the solvents as the outer layer "skins." And while reducing the overall thickness of the clear would help prevent the problem, super thin clear coats aren't generally well received in the guitar world (where applicable) because they lack visual depth and have poor wear resistance.

- Tightening a guitar tuner on uncured clear will trap solvents under the nut. These trapped solvents will soften the paint or finish underneath. This will manifest as a flaking clear coat.

- In the luthier world, it's called creep. It happens to glue and clear coats. A thick glue, when squeezed together,will push out slowly over time during the drying process resulting in what is being called pooling here. This is removed before finishing, but a thick, built up clear coat will do this too. The continuous pressure on uncured clear will cause it to slowly migrate toward the outer edges and pool or bubble. The trapped solvents will then leach into the underlying finish, softening it, and making it flake off. If is unpainted natural wood, it is less likely to happen because the solvents leach into the raw wood and disperse better. The hardest part is that creep is difficult to catch because it all looks fine at first until a week or so later when the clear slowly migrates out to the edges.

The luthier community solved this problem a long time ago by applying more thin coats instead of fewer thicker coats, letting them dry between coats, and then allowing it to cure before covering up portions of it with screwed down nuts. Every so often, the issue re-emerges when a manufacturer decides to save time by changing up the process.

I am NOT saying that is what is happening to the PFs, and there are other things that can cause similar problems (like overtightening, bad lacquer chemistry, bad surface prep, etc.), but I can't help notice a similarity between these problems.
1 (resized).jpg2 (resized).jpg3 (resized).jpg4 (resized).jpg

My playfield chipped in under 3 weeks of ownership. I have pooling/blistering at basically every post. Bottom line if Stern doesn't take care of me as a customer I will never do business with them again regardless what their "warranty" states. Not standing behind a product less then 30 days old qualifies as bad customer service to me and such a company doesn't deserve my money. Does Stern care? Guess I will find out eventually... My case has been open for about 4 weeks now and am still waiting for Stern to respond.

I think we all can appreciate your stance, especially if the chipping has occurred in so many areas.
I would hope that Stern does take care of you. I would almost guarantee though that it won’t happen quickly.

For what it's worth, I build musical instruments as a hobby, and there is a known issue with lacquer pooling around the guitar tuners on the headstock. I don't know if it is a similar cause here, but with regard to guitars -- if this happens, it has almost everything to do with curing. Here are some factors:
- 3 thin coats spaced 30 minutes apart, then a full nights cure, then repeat the next day. Then allow a few weeks before tightening the guitar tuners on. This allows the solvents to evaporate correctly between sprays. Applying too thick of a coat too soon will trap the solvents as the outer layer "skins."
- Tightening a guitar tuner on uncured clear will trap solvents under the nut. These trapped solvents will soften the paint or finish underneath. This will manifest as a flaking clear coat.
- In the luthier world, it's called creep. It happens to glue and clear coats. A thick glue, when squeezed together,will push out slowly over time during the drying process resulting in what is being called pooling here. This is removed before finishing, but a thick, built up clear coat will do this too. The continuous pressure on uncured clear will cause it to slowly migrate toward the outer edges and pool or bubble. The trapped solvents will then leach into the underlying finish, softening it, and making it flake off. If is unpainted natural wood, it is less likely to happen because the solvents leach into the raw wood and disperse better. The hardest part is that creep is difficult to catch because it all looks fine at first until a week or so later when the clear slowly migrates out to the edges.
The luthier community solved this problem a long time ago by applying more thin coats instead of fewer thicker coats, letting them dry between coats, and then allowing it to cure before covering up portions of it with screwed down nuts. Every so often, the issue re-emerges when a manufacturer decides to save time by changing up the process.
I am NOT saying that is what is happening to the PFs, and there are other things that can cause similar problems (like overtightening, bad lacquer chemistry, bad surface prep, etc.), but I can't help notice a similarity between these problems.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

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