The upcoming Star Trek video game is the feature cover story for the latest Game Pro Magazine, which also includes and interview with Star Trek co-writer/producer, where he talks about consequences, canon and more

Orci talks about Star Trek game and Star Trek sequel

The latest issue of Game Pro Magazine has a cover story feature about the upcoming Star Trek videogame (see TrekMovie first impressions). There is also an interview with Roberto Orci, which is available online.

Here is an excerpt where Orci talks about Star Trek II, consequences and the Star Trek sequel:

Kat: We’re both Star Trek fans. What do you think goes into the perfect Trek story?

Orci: I think all fans know that one of the perfect stories is Wrath of Kahn . It was a perfect Trek story because it had a great science fiction plot but it also maximized the friendship and the family feeling among all the characters.

That was the first movie I saw. It was the perfect Trek story because, to meet everyone at the height of their friendship, and the height of their knowing each other and loving each other. To me the perfect story has a great sci-fi concept, but also covers the personality of the characters that we know in the most real way. Whether it’s Spock as Mr. Logic, Kirk as Mister Leader, or Sulu as Mr. Help the Crew, everyone is their best self. It’s good sci-fi and good family.

Kat: So if Wrath of Khan is the perfect Trek story, does this mean that you’re going to kill Spock in the game?

Orci: In the game? Maybe. Both in the game and in the sequel that we’re doing – and by the way we consider them both very seriously together – we know that audiences are thinking of it as Star Trek II of the new universe, so we are aware that of preconceptions about who might die and what the sacrifices are. And we’re aware of those things as we generate the story for both the game and the movie.

Bob also explains how the new game fits into their new Star Trek universe and with the sequel:

Orci: So I would say that what’s going to be different about this game is that it’s going to fit into our new universe. It’s going to fit into the Star Trek that we were lucky enough to generate, and it’s going to be a story that happens within that universe and that story is not going to be fan fiction. It’s going to be a story that fits into our movies, and fits into between the first two movies. The things that we are thinking about for this game very much fall into what can happen between the two movies, and that’s exciting for me as a fan.

Kat: So when I watch the second movie. will I be rewarded in some way for having played the game?

Orci: Absolutely, that’s exactly the point. We would not allow a game to go out if it was not somehow a part of the continuity.

He also weighed in on if the game will be part of "canon":

Orci: True fans will tell you that canon is only what’s filmed. I’m not an authority on what is canon. However, I will tell you that this may be the first game that falls within the parameters of the people who are in charge of canon for now; the “supreme court,” as we call ourselves because we are the ones in charge of Star Trek for now. We won’t be in charge forever, but for right now we’re deciding what canon is, so I can tell you this is the first time where the game itself is generated by the people who are deciding canon and we generated the game to fit within canon.

This is the only game I have any interest in purchasing once it gets released next year. Probably cost an arm and a leg, but it will be for my kids’ birthdays (all three born in April/May) so it should be worth it. Oh… and to hear that lovely Pine/Kirk voice…sigh!

I could easily be accused of damning with faint praise, where the last film was concerned. But I would just like to say that the EV suits were among the details that were absolutely right.

They looked considerably influenced by those in “The Tholian Web” to me. Updated and considerably less bulky than those in ENT or the first couple of Star Trek films. Making them specifically department colours was great… and obviously helped keep the red shirt joke alive, where Olson was concerned.

I don’t mind waiting, but at least please come up with a good title so we don’t have to call it Star Trek 2 because new universe or not, its NOT the 2nd Star Trek movie, its the 12th, Star Trek 2 came out a long time ago, so please STOP calling it Star Trek 2.

#10 I’m curious to, I’m playing the Back to the Future game and a number of the actors are involved with the game so that increases enjoyment, but you don’t have to have original actors, you can get actors like the guy who did Marty McFly and probably sounds closer to McFly in the movies than Michael J. Fox does now. As long as they don’t do what Lucasarts did and get voice-overs that are so bad that it distracts you (like in X-Wing Alliance back in ’99) because you’re paying attention to the fact that those are NOT the characters you saw in the movie…

Please stop messing with Spock. He’s been through enough. Kill Kirk…LOL. Seriously, why kill anybody? It’s been done before, and will only feel like a rehash if done again. Do something wild, different, and crazy fellas. That’s what you freed yourselves up for.

Looking forward to the Star Trek game. I’ve seen a comment on another site that says it looks like a Mass Effect clone. Hey Star Trek should look up to the quality that is in Mass Effect. Intelligent and exciting at the same time. Look at the cover for GamePro, it features a Mass Effect 3 story too. I also wonder if they are going to use Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto’s voices. I hope there’s also a healthy dose of the troika’s third party and that’s McCoy! Sorry, Uhura. In Mass Effect 2, Mordin has all the funny lines. Just think of all the funny stuff we can get from McCoy.

Anyway, if this game comes out in 2012. Assuming it’s going to be a good game, that will keep us happy until 2013 for the new Star Trek movie.

They already have said Star Trek 2 / #12 will not be about “Khan” and William Shatner announced this week he is not going to be in the next movie. So if the video game (I assume) is about Khan, then cool I will buy it for the PC format, then the movie must be after Khan.
Well, I don’t really know. I hope they keep the story TOP SECRET. Eon Productions won’t even let the women who are auditioning for a role in the next James Bond movie, see the script during auditions. They have to read from the prior movie. Now that’s Top Secret.
JJ Abrams better get off his lazy *** and approve this new script and why is it only half-finished? Don’t they start filming this August 2011? If JJ does not feel like directing, then get someone else who will. Waiting 3 to 4 years for a new Star Trek movie is ridiculous. I would rather have a Star Trek movie every 2 years with a director who gets it done. Stop the laziness.

“Orci: True fans will tell you that canon is only what’s filmed. I’m not an authority on what is canon. However, I will tell you that this may be the first game that falls within the parameters of the people who are in charge of canon for now; the “supreme court,” as we call ourselves because we are the ones in charge of Star Trek for now. We won’t be in charge forever, but for right now we’re deciding what canon is, so I can tell you this is the first time where the game itself is generated by the people who are deciding canon and we generated the game to fit within canon.”

Usually agree and support Orci, but this is the most ridiculous thing I have heard out of the Supreme Court to date…this is right up there with Star Wars planking. I also really don’t appreciate this new and unexpected tad of arrogance here…”we’re deciding what canon is… the game itself is generated by the people who are deciding canon and we generated the game…”

Sheesh, this is bit of “holier than thou” attitude that I could do without, especially given how the script is now 1.5 years later and JJ still can’t commit to directing.

That’s tough love. I’ve read a bunch of your posts and you do support Bob Orci. So for being critical of Bob, I commend you for being even handed.

I see your point. Bob’s comments don’t bother me as much as it does you. Maybe because I’m still waiting for the next movie and say, news that the script is done. Oh, and news of who is going to direct the thing. After they announce the delay, what are we going to talk about? No TV series. No new Star Trek DVDs.

This game,I think,is going to be great! But,I must say something about what Bob said about said game and Trek 12. About killing Spock. Bob. I beg you. Don’t do it in Trek 12 for the sake of all things holy!!!! We saw it once,and I don’t think I could do it again,Spock’s my favorite,I don’t want to see him go and come back ‘again';what would be really bad? To see him go,and not come back!! I’m begin’ ya Bob,don’t do it!!

I’m a huge Halo fan, and I’ve never had any interest in playing any Star Trek game. But that it’s within the continuity between pictures and I like the experience of being part of the story — AND I like the first story — makes me seriously interested in trying a Star Trek game for the first time. I hope the story is good!

Only thing I hope to see is Kirk’s love of the enterprise to become more obvious. In TOS he seemed to have a love affair with her, and it was cool when every now and then he would actually talk to her as though she could hear him…

I think is was the episode “naked time” when he swears he would never lose her.

In the new movie he didn’t seem that impressed with her or mention much about it.

All I want is for the ships bridge to be re-worked a little bit. On the closing shot before ST2009 ends – you can see everyone in that shot clearly–except for Uhura. She’s hidden somewhat behind the computerized panel. When a shot like that takes place; I would like to be able to see the core members without obstruction. Otherwise–no complaints.

Bob
.mr.spock has already payed his dues.& given his life once for his ship in star trek:the wrath of khan. so please go.kill some one else this time . a red shirt!

hum, Bob a question I wonder if you have the nitpickers guide for the classic trekkers?

Orci: True fans will tell you that canon is only what’s filmed.

yes your darn right on that count.

I’m not an authority on what is canon.
um. ok

However, I will tell you that this may be the first game that falls within the parameters of the people who are in charge of canon for now;

cool!

the “supreme court,” as we call ourselves because we are the ones in charge of Star Trek for now. We won’t be in charge forever,

maybe not forever, but keep up the good work

but for right now we’re deciding what canon is

who’s we?

, so I can tell you this is the first time where the game itself is generated by the people who are deciding canon and we generated the game to fit within canon.”

whos making those desisions fellow writers , fans

I am a true trekker, I’VE been a fan sense day one (1966) this is what i perceive as what a canon is or is not:

when the content of a scripe or book is not put in a Movie Or Episode is consitered by us fans as a non canon.(i could be wrong about his)
when ever a scripe or book content is filmed in a movie or in any trek episold is written in stone & excepted as trekdome.
that is my personal opion of what a canon is .

#29 – “although the movies kind of did the enterprise worship to death. In TOS he seemed to be especially aware of the lives he was responsible for… I dug that.”

Yes, I agree. This “love affair” with the Enterprise on the part of Kirk was/is just so hinky/kinky/icky. Please no more. For the love of everything, allow Kirk to have a life outside of the Enterprise as well. Don’t let the three get to where they were in Star Trek V, where all they had were one another because…sheesh. Honestly, TOS Kirk/Spock/McCoy all needed to “get a life”! They are not monks and many priests and monks manage to have a more balanced lifestyle than those TOS guys did. I suspect that living and working in outer space could be difficult, but those ships are big with lots males and females…

“In TOS he seemed to be especially aware of the lives he was responsible for… I dug that.”

I totally agree with this. This is what needs to be shown in the sequel. This is one of the reasons why Kirk is “my captain”.

I think one reason why generally only those things which were filmed are considered canon is also, that other media don’t reach so many people. Much less people read Star Trek books and comics. The computer game will also reach much less people than the movies. A lot of people simply don’t play computer games/console games at all. For example my mother don’t even know how to start a computer, but she will still watch the new movie.

In my case I won’t be able to play the game, although I would really like to. I just don’t have one of the newest consoles and my computer is very probably not good enough for that game. I have a very old graphic card, which is more than enough for small flash games I like to play, but not good enough for other bigger computer games. Those big new computer games unfortunately always require an up to date hardware. :-(

I am completely against killing of Kirk, Spock and McCoy. The first two were already killed in a Star Trek movie and I like all three character too much to see them dead. ;-)

If you kill any of the other characters (Scott, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov), it would be sad, but I won’t mind it much as long as the character stays dead. Bringing back dead people is just so lame and it was already done with Spock in Star Trek III.

#22 – “Sheesh . Not trying to brag. Let me re- explain. As far as my understanding goes, canon is defined by whatever is FILMED. and right now, we are choosing what is filmed. Am i missing something?”

Mostly not, Bob. “Canon” was always a fairly arbitrary term anyway, and it’s been used more by fans arguing with each other than by the producers. The thrust of it all, of course, is to define what counts within an overall continuity.

These days of course, with everything that’s happened, the definition probably has to be amended somewhat, to something like this:

Canon – Whatever is filmed, in live-action, by the property-owner (i.e., CBS/Paramount)

Under the original definition, TAS counts (it became a point of contention because Mr. Roddenberry tried to back away from it, years after the fact). Also under the original definition, the fan films would count, too, and I’m pretty sure nobody’s really arguing for them to be considered canon. ‘Course, since nothing is likely to contradict the ones set in the Primeverse, they could theoretically be *treated* as canonical. For that matter, the same is true for the licensed books and comics set in the Primeverse, too.

And that takes us back full-circle. “Canon” is an *operational* concept, to wit, what we consider as “having actually happened”. And if Bob and Alex K. and JJ and Damon and the others who are writing and producing the movies at the moment are treating the game’s events as actually having happened in the continuum they are presenting to us, then the game is functionally canonical for that universe, irrelevant of the medium in which it’s being presented.

#7 – “And it honestly never once entered my mind that they would perhaps actually kill Spock in the game or the sequel. I am hoping that they don’t. Please don’t.”

I agree. Of course, I also felt exactly that way about Vulcan (even if it is a planet/civilization, rather than a person), and look what happened. :(

boborci, if there is any room for the solicitation of opinions, I as a long-term TOS fan would vote against anything other than filmed content to be considered “canon.” Right now, “canon” allows for at least a general sense of continuity in the broader Trek universe. If that definition becomes too broad, I fear the creation of a wedge that would imply *anything* could be canon, from every book that’s ever been written to any piece of second-tier fan-fiction. Canon defines the core universe around which the reality of Trek structures itself, warts and all; if expanded too greatly, the inherent and inevitable inconsistencies among all the pieces of Trek lore “in the wild” become impossible to overcome.

Keep it simple, keep the video games and books out, and just tell a good Trek story. Somehow, I think “canon” will take care of itself.

Everyone –
In most video games, the character “dies” at some point, thus forcing the player to restart the level, mission, scenario, etc.

Think about it. Kirk and Spock in the game WILL die, particularly at the hands of a lousy player. ;)

I would expect “reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated” from someone in the next movie. Super-fuel the drama, have the audience realize how important these characters are, how much they mean to one another, provided it’s an organic process.

boborci – many of us, IMHO, know you’re fully capable of delivering excellence. I’m looking forward to hearing updates on your guidance with the IDW ST comic books. And yes, I did understand that you meant “canon” as in what appears onscreen.

Enjoy the weekend, everyone! Happy birthday, America! Land of the free, home of Star Trek’s birth, too! ;)

40. I agree. The rules of what s canon existed before i arrived on the sene, and that s what i mean when i say i am not an authority on canon. We cant jus change the defenition. So thpugh thegame and comics may be consistent with canon, as far as my understanding goes, they are not canon.

I assum(ed) prime-Spock will assist in locating a new planet Vulcan, and take all the survivors there. That would be a GREAT concept for a novel or graphic novel. The Enterprise and crew can be included, to what extent, who knows…

The canon “rules” are dictated by the current regime, meaning you, JJ, etc. You can adopt the canon rules used by Lucasfilm (extended universe is canon until otherwise contradicted by filmed product) any time you wish. No one at Paramount or CBS will stop it. The fans would welcome it. The licensees would love it (just ask them). There is no reason not to just do it

Therefore the past 3 comics (COUNTDOWN, NERO, ADAPTATION), the upcoming STAR TREK ongoing comic and the ongoing STAR TREK game should all be deemed canon as they have all been made under your supervision. In any minor cases where they coflict with film then the film canon trumps, but the remainder of comic/game/etc remains canon.

Novels are a different issue as you have not been involved The young adult Academy books Could be reviewed for possible canon inclusion or just deemed noncanon. But I think a future series of adult novels could be given the same treatment as the upcoming STAR TREK comics and fall under the canon umbrella.

@46/Bob Orci: “So though the game and comics may be consistent with canon, as far as my understanding goes, they are not canon.”

Exactly Bob — we are in full agreement then. Thanks for reconsidering. Whoever is in charge of Trek does not get to define canon. Roddenberry defined Trek canon, and the fan base has supported that definition since Day 1. There is no need to change the definition now.

Also for the canon argument, I’m real easy. It’s all happens. Unless something is directly contradicted by the films / TV series (which interpretation is “Paramount”. Heh, get it?) it’s all canon. Hey, these people just live really, really, really busy lives.

Whoops. Guess my post got deleted for dropping an f-bomb. My bad, didn’t mean it in a malicious or offensive way. Anyway, yeah, Borg and Dominon as the baddies from the TNG era would rule and completely upend what you’d expect from a TOS game.

Newer mediums such as high-quality story driven video games are perfectly capable of supporting continuity and canon. This is especially true if writers like Bob are familiar with the medium and know it’s strengths. Do we really want to dismiss an entire chapter of Trek just because the medium wasn’t viable when Gene was around? I work in comics, so I know all about people dismissing an entire storytelling medium.

Bottom line is you can’t reconcile two Spock’s together in the same universe unless one is from an alternate universe, not just from the future. So Spock IS from the future. Of a parallel universe. Which we also call the prime universe. Which the new universe is a copy of in its earlier days.

I watched it last night, and I’m wondering why they changed Nero’s line for the movie? In the trailer when Nero is choking Kirk he says:

“Captain Kirk was a great man…but that was another life.”

In the movie Nero says:

“Captain Kirk was considered to be a great man…but that was another life.”

And I actually like the trailer version much better. It’s shorter, sweeter, and it’s more definite. Captain Kirk WAS a great man. “Considered to be” sounds too contemplative in a crucial moment where brevity works better.

66, I think that’s just a character bit where Nero would never admit that James Kirk was a great man so he says “considered to be” but I do kinda like the abbreviated version in the trailer too if only that it makes JJ-verse Kirk seem even more like an ant.

@67: I like the implication that Kirk’s historical legacy was great enough to be taught in the Romulan Empire as such. It’s also a tense moment where Nero is agitated and full of emotion, and “Captain Kirk was a great man” sounds more like he’s recalling a history lesson, whereas adding “considered to be” sounds more like he’s thinking dispassionately, which feels at odds with the emotion of the scene.

The new Star Trek movies will be watched by countless millions people worldwide over the next decades. Millions of people will see them, which are not even born yet.

The new game on the other hand will only reach a much smaller amount of people in the next few years. There are just much more TV viewers, than people who play computer/console games. Movies are also repeated all the time on TV, so there is a big probability, that someone sees it at one point in time. On the other hand you have to buy the expensive Star Trek game and it has a lot of other games as competition for the money. They will also stop selling it quite soon in shops and it will be replaced by newer games. So only a relative small part of computer/console players, will play it.

In some years the Star Trek game will also not be playable anymore for most people. Someday in the future it is simply too old and won’t play on new consoles and computers anymore. I have some old Star Trek computer games from the 90s and I can’t play them anymore on my current computer. They are just too old.

So in 20 (or even 50!) years people will still watch the Star Trek movies from 2009 and 2012, some for the first time, others for the 30 times. The game will be only a vague memory of a few middle age or older people. Most people won’t even remember or have ever known, that the game ever existed.

This is the main reason, why computer/console games are just not suited as canon material. They have a much shorter life time than the movies and will reach over the next decades only a tiny fraction of the amount of viewers of the movies.

So I would really only consider movies and series as canon. At least they have a long life time. Just look at TOS. People can still watch the series easily (TV, internet, DVD), if they want, while computer games from the 90s are already not playable anymore. I have read about quite a lot of new Star Trek fans, which watched TOS for the first time after they saw the last movie. On the other hand I bet no one will play the new game in 45 years.

It is by the way not bad, when something isn’t canon. I read a lot of Star Trek books, which were contradictory to the series/movies. Often they were even more interesting than those books, which didn’t contradict canon. Books which ignored canon were often more daring and creative.

I see books, comics, games and even fanfiction and fan films as additional material, which should just be entertaining and can contradict canon as much as they want.

@69 “So in 20 (or even 50!) years people will still watch the Star Trek movies from 2009 and 2012, some for the first time, others for the 30 times. The game will be only a vague memory of a few middle age or older people. Most people won’t even remember or have ever known, that the game ever existed.”

“Thanks for reconsidering. Whoever is in charge of Trek does not get to define canon”

I’m not sure he reconsidered, exactly. Also, who else but the team in charge would define it? Fans can decide for themselves what they consider canon (as they always have), but as far as an official policy, I’d say JJ/Bob/Damon are the folks to ask. I know plenty of fans that don’t consider Trek V canon, and even Roddenberry considered it only sorta canon, despite the fact that the official line has always been that it was canon.

As far as a game being considered canon, I have no problem with that. If Trek 2 references something from the game, then it’s canon, isn’t it? Simple as that.

@72. When I said they could not “define” canon, I meat this literally to be the definition of canon that was determined by Gene R — that canon is only what is on TV or in the movies in terms of live action drama. Obviously, whatever this new team puts on screen will not considered canon — so of course, they can “create” canon within their current series of movies. But no, I do not recognize any claim they may make to change the definition of canon to now include transitory video games or comics.

Oh it’s a parallel universe? So what? Can you explain ,if it is,why Spock did break the Prime Directive by changing the History and evolution af an entire universe just to put his friens in the Captain Chair? Does it mean that if Spock did have save Romulus in the prime universe, the parallel one would have been exactly the same as the first one? If they had to be similar, why are they different universes? You failed.

Kirk: “Did you find the engine room?”
Mr. Orci: “Right where I left her sir. …
Scotty: “Are you from the future?”
Mr Orci: “Yeah J.J. is. I’m not.”
Scotty: “Well, that’s brilliant. Do they still have Star Trek tv series there?”

So everything! Red matter created black holes PLUS travel into the past EQUALS creation of another universe on arrival.

– – “Can you explain, if it is, why Spock did break the Prime Directive by changing the History and evolution af an entire universe just to put his friend in the Captain Chair?”

Nero came through first and did all the damage. His actions altered Kirk’s life and changed history from occuring the way it would’ve done leading up to The Original Series. Spock was too late to prevent it all, and could only try to limit the damage.

– – “Does it mean that if Spock did save Romulus in the prime universe, the parallel one would have been exactly the same as the first one?”

If Spock had been able to save Romulus in time, there would be no Nero out for vengeance, no Parallel Universe and no film. All the differences in the new universe – destroyed U.S.S. Kelvin, orphaned Kirk, different designed starships including the U.S.S. Enterprise, destroyed Vulcan and probably more we’ve not seen yet… all cascade from the one event.

– – “If they had to be similar, why are they different universes?”

J.J. Abrams, Paramount and whoever else wanted to bring Star Trek back to its most famous incarnation. That’s why it has be similar in some respects. Different universes because they weren’t confident in making a straight-forward prequel. Not wanting to ask an audience to suspend their belief that the production designs now, could COME BEFORE those seen in a 45 year-old television series. I could buy into it, as I did the NX-01 on ENTERPRISE, but the general view they most wouldn’t be able to.

Apart from involving the characters of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the rest aboard a starship called Enterprise… I don’t think they should be similar. There the similarities should end. The Original Series exists and has been done. You want to see this gang take on the Doomsday Machine or Khan, then you can. If the universe is a big place, then the Abramsverse should seek out the NEW and not DO COMPLETE RETREADS of existing stories, as the comic-books seem to be doing. In a parallel universe, a whole other starship would probably be having those adventures.

Not bad for somebody who’s only seen STAR TREK (2009) three times, huh?

Impressive special effects because all films are like that – especially Summer Movies, more spectacle than anything else. And the storytelling is transparently ends justify the means type stuff. The end hopefully not being to remake TOS adventures for the sake of it. Same characters (more or less, given at least two are now damaged individuals) but the rest should be unpredictable.

Oh it’s a parallel universe? So what? Can you explain ,if it is,why Spock did break the Prime Directive by changing the History and evolution af an entire universe just to put his friens in the Captain Chair?

***

Sure. They’re operating under the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (MWI/QM). That’s the core premise the story hangs on. The attempted intrusion into the past by Nero through the black hole actually creates another branched-off universe that is parallel to the universe he and Spock came from, but which will also unfold differently because their existence is an unavoidable influence on events there.

Once Spock and Nero entered the new universe they also became its citizens. The very act of going back was the alteration to the past that created the universe they ended up within, so there would be no unfolding according to the original universe/timeline they knew for them to disrupt.

As citizens of the new universe they unavoidably contribute to its drama by their own actions, same as anybody else, because what would have been without them can never be the same with them there anyway, freeing them to act however they wish.

Gene was inconsistent on this point, though. At one point, TAS was canon. Then he decided it wasn’t. Trek V & VI were filmed, but he said elements of them should be considered ‘apocryphal’. He’s long gone, and now new people are in charge. I don’t see why the Star Trek definition of ‘canon’ has to be set in stone.

82: “I have decided to embrace that philosophy. So, since our own world wouldn’t have been the same without ME in it, I’m going to do WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT!”

Well you can do that at any moment of your life anyway. But then you have to live with the consequences too, Harry. ;-)

Point is they are part of the new universe just like everybody else. Spock has no special responsibillity to try to make things turn out the same as if he’s “fixing” the timeline because it’s not broken. It’s a different universe. So when he interferes to ultimately help Kirk become captain, it’s perfectly kosher and he’s acting to make things turn out the way he wants them to like any other citizen of the new universe might act. The idea of a temporal prime directive in this case would be absurd.

@83. He was consistent though in the broader definition that “live action on-screen Trek” is what is canon. He never deviated from that. He never considered the animated series, comics, games etc. as canon.

“…when he says that the books, and the games, and the comics and everything else, are not gospel, but are only additional Star Trek based on his Star Trek but not part of the actual Star Trek universe that he created… they’re just, you know, kinda fun to keep you occupied between episodes and between movies, whatever…” — Richard Arnold, 1991″

86: “…when he says that the books, and the games, and the comics and everything else, are not gospel, but are only additional Star Trek based on his Star Trek but not part of the actual Star Trek universe that he created… they’re just, you know, kinda fun to keep you occupied between episodes and between movies, whatever…” — Richard Arnold, 1991″

Well since Gene Roddenberry is gone, and nobody can replace him, then I guess nobody can create officially sanctioned Star Trek anymore.

Canon isn’t written when Gene Roddenberry isn’t involved. That is liberating.

“Well since Gene Roddenberry is gone, and nobody can replace him, then I guess nobody can create officially sanctioned Star Trek anymore.”

This is not what I was saying and you know that. Yes, the Supreme Court can “create” new canon within the movies, but for may part, I will not recognize them as being allowed to re-“define” canon to expand it to comic books and games.

If you want to buy you PS3 game of Trek and pretend it’s canon, no one is stopping you and you don’t have to agree with my position here. Perhaps have a Trek Game/Bicycle Movie night at your house — by all means, go for it! :-)

To my recollection, the old “it isn’t canon until it’s on the screen” bit generally seems to be the rule, although one item that I do recall being accepted as canon by the fans that was never on the big screen was the notion of Saavik being half-Romulan. IIRC, it was in the script, but the scene explicitly stating her heritage was cut from the final film – is it in the director’s cut?

(The other, of course, is Kirk’s middle name, which was first – to my recolleciton – stated as “Tiberius” by D.C. Fontana at one of the early ST conventions – and was accepted by the fans and finally used in a TAS episode (“Bem”) in 1974 and then later in the movies.)

My favorite canon story, though, has to do with Vonda McIntyre’s history of Sulu – in the course of her novel (“Entropy Effect”) she came up with a whole history of Sulu, the whole Ganjitsu thing, where he was born and raised and so forth.

Then, Star Trek 4 comes out and Takei, with his endearingly goofy smile, says, as the Klingon ship comes down over Golden Gate Park – “San Francisco – I was born there.”

There goes Ganjitsu, right? No – McIntyre was writing the novelizations of the movie at the time, and so in her version of ST4 she has Sulu say the line and someone else – Scotty? – says, “I thought you were born on Ganjitsu?” and Sulu replies, “No, I was born in San Francisco; I was raised on Ganjitsu”. (the preceding is not a direct quote; I’m too lazy to dig the book off my shelf right now).

I do consider TAS to be canon, although you may recall when DC tried to use Arex and M’ress in the comic, Paramount made them stop – just as the Sulu/M’ress relationship was getting interesting.

As for the new movie, my main gripe is still the notion of a still-wet-behind-the-ears kid being handed command of the Federation’s flagship. I’m hoping, therefore, for a scene in the next movie where Kirk sends out a distress call or something and the reply is, “You’re on your own, wonder boy.” ;)

Sadly a scene not included on any DVD. I remember seeing it in poor quality on Youtube. Somewhere. I gather it slotted in just before the “I feel young” scene – with an exchange between her and David. It may have been in the special TV cut which aired on ABC? back in the mid 80’s and that’s where the online clip came from.

Personally I found the scenes restored to the Director’s Cut disruptive to the flow, but that’s only because I’ve seen the theatrical many, many times. Whereas the TV cut with more about Scotty’s nephew, climbing up through the ship with a repeated use of the music going on, is other people’s preferred version.

I think it’s hilarious that the last movie was so ambiguous and unclearly written that years later even confirmed Trekkies (see “Ian” above) clearly did not understand the “future vs alternate reality” stuff.

I think the alternate reality angle was a brilliant way to move forward without disrespecting the old series and cast BUT the exposition CLEARLY did not pass the “wife” test. Mine’s pretty smart, but I know she didn’t get it either.

Well…”parallel reality” probably would have been the better term to use, because you can make the case even if the writers didn’t intend the meaning that “alternate reality” means either with respect to what might have been without the Nero/Spock incursion, or with respect to Spock Prime’s memories of the universe he came from, which in either scenario could be considered as now nonexistent vs. “alternate reality” with respect to the prime universe which still objectively exists. And that interpretation would be consistent with canonical City on the Edge of Forever rules because although McCoy erased the future he still maintained his own memories of it in the past as his recognition of Kirk and Spock proves.

This is why the conversation between the two Spock’s at the end referencing universe ending paradoxes is so crucial, i.e., because it precisely fixes the term “alternate reality” as meaning the objective sense, i.e., that Spock Prime came from the future of a different universe which still objectively exists.

And don’t get me wrong…I love the movie and it works fine for me as written, but obviously we’ve seen some fans trying to hold on to the past commenting in here with rancor on this issue, and it obviously didn’t work for them on a very emotional level.

Actually if anybody ever wants to save Vulcan, (and know the writers probably won’t – they probably have a rich storyline involving the race looking for a new home), BUT there’s a possible window in the movie and it uses Multi-verse theory.

If everytime a visitor exists the lightning storm, black hole, whatever, creates a duplicate universe. Then Nero came through in 2233 doing so. Then Spock did too in 2258. Universes identical to the way they were until the visitor actively participates.

So somewhere Nero sat waiting for Spock to exit in 2258. He didn’t. So gave up and didn’t attack Vulcan – No Spock around to show off to – He went straight to Earth instead.

The window of opportunity in that universe, for Kirk or whoever accidentally thrown back in time (from the future), is however many hours it takes for Nero to give up waiting and change his plan, strike Earth first instead.

Again, anybody that pays any attention at all to the science page of their newspaper or news web site, or casually watches pop science astronomy shows on Discovery channel from time to time, should know the basics of the multiple universes theory (“many worlds interpretation) that is now part of the current thinking in astronomy.

Heck, Jet Li made an action movie based on this theory over 10 years ago.

@104 “My wife passed the “wife” test, and got the alternate timeline right away, she even thought it was “lazy writing”

Well, apparently some people still don’t understand. So we have “lazy writing” on one group of people that got it, and “I don’t understand” from another group — sounds to me that Orci and Company hit it about right and found a happy medium of detail versus generalities that while not please both extremes, got the job done.

“This is why the conversation between the two Spock’s at the end referencing universe ending paradoxes is so crucial, i.e., because it precisely fixes the term “alternate reality” as meaning the objective sense, i.e., that Spock Prime came from the future of a different universe which still objectively exists.”

It was this bit that got me confused. I think I had a fairly good grasp of what was going on up until that point…duh
Although I did write in my story that both Vulcan and Romulus had been destroyed (nuKirk and the Enterprise were rescuing stranded homeless Romulans as well as stray Vulcans) until my wise-guy 14 year old son told me that Romulus had not been destroyed in this alternate universe, only in the other one. I wrote this story before the DVD came out and he had only seen the movie once at the cinema. Out of the mouths of babes…huh…:)

I have two things to mention here quickly. One, you gotta bring Carol Marcus in as a character in the sequel. There is so much great drama to mine out of that relationship. It gives Kirk a love interest, someone who fans will know and non-fans can fall in love with. But more importantly, it would be interesting to see how this Kirk reacts to being a father and subsquently Carol’s choice to raise the child without his involvement. Or perhaps she makes a different choice in this universe than she did in the other. In any event, I would love to see her in the new film.

Second, I feel like in the new film you need to show us more of these other worlds of the federation. You know have Kirk and crew journey to a world heretofore unseen or perhaps not executed the best on the television series or films. I would like to Kirk and company navigating a bustling city filled with all the different alien species in the Star Trek universe. I always felt that the films have all been too small. I want to see more of the universe that humanity is a part of.

I am sure whatever you have going now will be good. I love the cast you have now and your version of the enterprise looks great. Looking forward to seeing the next chapter in this crew’s story.

I never liked Carol Marcus, and the more I see her (as in watching TWOK), I have come to hate her.

Please, Bob & co – NO CAROL MARCUS!!!
(I’m not sure that she would have any right to choose to raise THEIR child without his involvement anyway.)

Of course, this new Kirk could choose to spend as little time as possible (if any) with any children he might have, but would this Kirk choose that? After all, he does know what is like to grow up without having both parents (especially on his birthday) and I think it is fair to say that the loss of his father did affect him deeply (ref. Pike’s observations in the bar). Since he (James Kirk) is very much alive (unlike his father), I would (like to) think that he would make the most of any opportunities he had to bring up personally any child(ren) he might have. Just makes sense to me. It is just and right.

MJ, we’ve debated this before but not everybody is going to understand what “alternate reality'” means in terms of physics. If Uhura had said, “By entering in this timeline, Nero created a a parallel universe” then I would have gotten it quicker. It helped after I saw the movie and coming to this website, that I saw Bob Orci’s interview from December, 2008. More could have been done in the meeting between Kirk and Spock Prime. If I were Kirk, I would ask, “What was my father like in the other universe?” “What kind of man was I, in the universe you came from?” etc. And trust me this is not a midi-chlorian situation since it’s a very complex concept; so a little more exposition would be helpful.

If a Trekker didn’t get it, I don’t view them as dumb or anything like that. That’s because we’re Trekkers not physicists. In fact, I have the Star Trek Time Travel Fan Collective. And those stories all deal with time travel as go back in time, you change the timeline. See DS9 “Trials and Tribble-ations.” Remember if you went back in time, you got a visit from the Department of Temporal Investigations. See also Ray Bradbury’s “A Sound of Thunder.” Remember at the 2010 Las Vegas Con, a number of Trekkers missed the parallel universe part of the 2009 movie. Link below.

Hey the cover of GamePro also says it has a feature about Mass Effect 3, a game which some gamers say Star Trek is going to be similar too. That’s a good thing.. Anyway Mass Effect 2 had some Star Trek nods, including some small parts for Michael Dorn, and Armin Shimerman; there was this bar scene from the game. The line used by the main character while ordering a drink, “It’s green.” is from TOS “By Any Other Name.” Check out this mash-up of both the game and the episode. (By the way, you can be a male or female in Mass Effect. It’s a great action RPG.)

boborci – canon is whatever CBS as the current Star Trek owner says is canon today, or whatever your creative team says is canon if you’re allowed to set such policy (presumably you are), not necessarily filmed Star Trek only. We base our canon policy on CBS statements in official sources, such as the Star Trek Encyclopedia or StarTrek.com, and there is nothing inherently superior about film as a medium that would bar other kinds of sources from being canonized as well.

For example, we would expect the following if this game were canonized:

a) Events, characters, ships and other elements from the game can be freely referenced in future movies without any legal or creative concerns.

b) You couldn’t dismiss elements from the game when writing future movies. For example, if the game were to establish that on March 9, 2250, Uhura spent the entire day doing X, the movies cannot show her doing Y on that same day.

119. Which is why i said in the interview that i am not an expert on canon, by which i mean it is not up to us define what is or is not canon. What IS up to us right now is what ends up in the movies, games, comics, and novels. Incidently, CBS owns Tv rights and paramount owns movie rights. So you maybe more correct in asserting that ViACoM, which owns both, decides what is canon, but I am sure some would disagree with that assertion.

Y’know… reading all this, I think we’re all kind of over-angsting about canon. ;)

The important and relevant part is that Bob, Alex, JJ, and co. have decided that the events of the game will be considered “in continuity”, and thus any “factual” material which the game establishes will be considered “valid” going forward. In the end, if that’s the case, then it really doesn’t matter whether the game is nominally canon or not, because, functionally, it is part of their universe.

And when one comes down to it, continuity is a much more important concept than canon, anyway. :)

The rules of canon have changed over time and can change again. And it doesnt have to be black and white. The LucasFilm team have done it in a way that I think can work, at least for the new universe. They have levels of canon. Filmed and Television canon (G & T canon) are the top two levels. The third level is C Canon or “Continuity Canon” is the books, comics and games. All levels are considered canon, but when one conflicts with the other the higher level wins out. So for example when the prequel movies came out they conflicted with some previous novels which were up to that time canon, but are now not.

It would be even simpler for Star Trek with Level 1 being filmed/TV canon and Level 2 being EU canon. This would mean that the STAR TREK game and STAR TREK comics overseen by Bob would be canon, but if he (or some future writer/producer) wanted to contradict something on film or TV that would be OK. And there is even precedent in the Trek universe, as Voyager novels written by Jeri Taylor were considered canon.

I can see no reason why COUNTDOWN/NERO/2009 ADAPTATION and the future STAR TREK ongoing series should not be considered as canon (in this “Level 2/continuity canon” sense). And the truth is there really is no one in Paramount who oversees this kind of thing to make a ruling, they have essentially handed Star Trek over to Bad Robot, K/O and Lindelof. There is CBS Consumer Products, but I suspect they would be fine with these materials being deemed canon as that would be a selling point. I know that the licensees would want them to be deemed canon.

Let’s face it, for this new alternative universe we are probably only going to get 3 movies, maybe more. So unlike the Prime Universe, there will not be over 700 hours of canon, there will just be the movies. I say let the EU for this alternative universe fill the gap and be canon.

It would increase the investment we as fans can make into this new universe and it would be nice to not have to flip between Memory Alpha and Memory Beta when reading about the history of the new Kirk, McCoy etc.

RE: Viacom
It was my understanding that Viacom (which still owns Paramount) divested entirely from CBS (who own the “Star Trek” brand) as they are now both publicly traded companies. I do believe that Sumner Redstone and family still have considerable holdings in both, as do many other investors, but they are separate legal entities since 2006.

123 – absolutely, which is why I specified practical, testable expectations as well under a) and b), as opposed to merely focusing on the word “canon”. The point is that by allowing the game to respresent something that really did happen in that universe, one raises its value in the eyes of a certain group of fans. I’m glad that it is up to the creative team to determine “what ends up in the movies, games, comics, and novels”, as Bob said.

Looks like a cool game. Hoping for some tholian involvement. though i totally miss the prime timeline, there is of course the opportunity to delve into aliens and charactors that were only mentioned in the orignal. I do sincerely hope though that not every movie/ game in the new seies panders to the “save the world” thing. star trek is about family and a good sci-fi story, but it’s also about the human condition and most important’y,

I would have preferred a clean reboot to the Handwavium “alternate reality” bit they stuck us with.

In canon, all Federation personnel (and it is implied civilians as well) are not supposed to be mucking about with time. In the event they are accidently time shifted, they are supposed to take all actions needed to minimize participation in history, and the Temporal Prime Directive requires them to act to fix any problems they DO cause.

Spock Prime, as someone from the universe where that rule is promulgated, utterly FAILS to follow the regulations. His actions (or lack thereof) are inexcusable. He failed to mimimize his presence. He failed to fix the paradox caused by Nero (which could have fairly easily been fixed).

129 – By going back to 2233 and waiting for Nero to appear from the distortion, then destroying him with…what? Even if Spock could manage that, we would still be left with two parallel realities, except that Kirk’s life and related events would be more-or-less the same as in the original his time around.

Nero didn’t change the prime timeline, he entered another one which for some reason was created side by side (kind of like installing Microsoft Office 2010 without uninstalling 2007). Spock would have had to jump realities first, travel forward in time to 2387, then prevent the explosion in order to “uninstall” the new reality. Unfortunately, we’re in no position to say that it could’ve been fixed “fairly easily”, since none of us are experts in those mechanics. Jumping realities may be the overriding problem in this case.

I would’ve preferred a clean reboot, though. Bob Orci has said that this approach would allow them to take the story in unexpected directions that need not follow the original stories at all in some cases, but I’ve never expected regular reboots to do so anyway (nBSG wasn’t constrained by anything it didn’t want to be constrained by; its writers used only those elements from the original which they liked).

The problem now is that according to Bob, everything before the divergence was identical to the original, but a lot of design elements, e.g. the size of the pre-Nero Kelvin, are difficult to reconcile with previous Star Trek, and then there are many fans trying to come up with convoluted explanations for how Nero’s influence caused Y to turn into Z, as opposed to merely accepting the changes as natural consequences of a reboot.

I like the original Star Trek, but I’ve no problem with multiple versions of it, mainly because Star Trek has already experienced a number of “covert reboots”, with TMP, TNG, “First Contact” and “Enterprise”, for example. In order to remain consistent with TOS, the NX should’ve looked like something out of 1930s serials, but it didn’t – it looked more like the redesigned Enterprise from the TOS movies.

What I got from that was 1. Although Spock was there at the acadamy, he was in the background as an observer. Watching the past (present) unfold again as his good friend got the captains chair one more time. He couldnt miss that right?

2. And he had to confront young Spock because he was still going to leave Star Fleet to help his people instead of joining Kirk on the Enterprise. Theres just certain things that hold true in any universe. He had to fix that (the friendship), the main thing his time travel messed up IMO.

Yeah, super easy. How, exactly? Go forward in time, somehow, and stop himself from using the red matter in the first place? I wish the film had made it a little clearer (or clear at all) that the time travel was accidental and unexpected. Time travel had become so ubiquitous in the original universe (along with the dominant idea that there was a single, correct, resettable timeline) that it made time travel stories kind of silly — why not just keep time travelling til you get the right result instead of following some arbritrary, “we only have power for one trip and we have to leave in 12 hours, or whatever,” if ourmain characters can time travel whenever convienient or necessary, well, why can’t a lot of other people with similar resources ? And, of course, all the ensuing paradoxes. It can be used to tell interesting “what if?” stories (which alternate realities work just as well for) or let our heroes struggle with “we have to let her die to preserve the timeline/save lives” dilemas…

But what would it mean if our characters just went back and reset history, if it were possible, every time they made a mistake, or after the death of one or billions (and which one, which billions)? Yeah, Spock caused the whatever that brought Nero there, but even if it were fixable — should he fix it (when the attempt could possibly kill far more people?

Sorry. A lot of caffiene today, thus, the continued ramblings of an
unemployed journalist.