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I'm quite sure that some Eurocrats fully believe this is the ultimate goal. However, in practice it will take a large proportion of the EU community to also believe before it can succeed. That majority in not forthcoming in Europe any more than it was in the UK.

If history teaches us anything at all, it's that the majority is irrelevant against an organised minority holding the real power.

The EU has expanded far more and far quicker than originally intended. I believe that was largely due to UK and US influence...trying to turn Eastern bloc into Western bloc to capitalise on the break-up of the Soviet Union. It caused friction within the EU and the UK was very much to blame...to the point a backlash was inevitable.

I'm not sure what rate of expansion was intended at the formation of the EEC and I doubt anyone else does, or even that the EU was a vision at those early stages, but we know they went for quantity over quality, possibly believing that large numbers of mostly uninformed and economically dependent voters is the easiest route to victory.

Perhaps those that had visions of union based them on the status quo not changing quite so dramatically, and did not bank on new stuff like the www and other technological advances making information so readily available to the masses.

But it makes little difference if the EEC was a bait and switch or the switch was conceived later, because the European Empire is not what people want so soon after other failed Empires fragmented and folded.

I believe Eastern bloc price for entering NATO was EU membership. The pressure was put on the EU by UK and USA.

Originally Posted by cyrille

More stuff that BREXITers don't know making the things they don't know about look bad.

Hilarious, i am not sure why the UK is bothering to leave if we can exert so must power in the club, negotiation should be easy. So the UK was responsible for the inclusion of the visegard group et al. Well well well.

It sounds like you are trying to blame the British for encouraging former Warsaw Pact countries to join the EU,

The UK may have encouraged but if you read Troys post the blame for them joining is squarely the UKs, amazing how weak the EU was then when it cared about NATO and yet how little it cares about NATO now given its stance.
The Remainers are starting to moan like they have accused leavers for the last 3 years.

the populace might not keen to have a full integration, and some local politicians will play on this (LePen), but the stated objectives of the EU commissions was always full integration, and in 2004, the EU constitution was born, even though they had to rename it because it was too controversial

NATO can do a much better job, but that would mean France being a paying member and taking orders from their betters. That will never happen under any umbrella safety net, even an EU army.
You assume that the French would have a major say in the use and functions of an EU Army. That’s like giving your teenage son, the keys to your Ferrari and the liquor cabinet.

but he has a driving license, and your driving license was suspended for drunk driving

you forgot one thing, we are the only one in the EU to have nukes, so we are the defacto alpha male in the group

Germany is delusional to think that they can rely on NATO forever, they need to fooking grow-up and re-engage their army

This is still a long way forward, and adding shit Eastern Countries in the EU is not helping, a farewell gift from our English traitors friends

If history teaches us anything at all, it's that the majority is irrelevant against an organised minority holding the real power.

absolutely, hence why the populace not being too keen into a full integration, the EU commissions and EU politicians, with a few exceptions, are all pushing for that full integration, slowly but surely

we will get there eventually, and Brexit is going to be the accelerator we needed to achieve that

The accession state expansion of the EU has been a steady process since way back in 1957 when free movement was formalised as an essential article of its constitution and including the former Warsaw pact countries liberated by Gorbachev from the jackboot of Stalin oppression was a logical and desirable extension.

When Salazar and Franco shuffled off from the scene the accession of the Iberian countries was inevitable and one consequence of it was that London now had a reservoir of cheap labour upon which to draw in expansion of the leisure and tourist industry which had hitherto been hampered by an unwillingness of the British lower end to work satisfactorily. So from 1986 onwards we saw an explosion of migrant labour from those countries which fuelled an increase in UK GDP.

But by the late 1990s, the trends had established a new phenomenon and that was a dearth of labour in the hotel industry in the Algarve and elsewhere on the Iberian peninsula. I recall a holiday in the Algarve in 1998 when the hotel I was staying in produced a pamphlet explaining that despite all attempts they simply could not recruit enough chambermaids and warned guests they might experience poor room service. Indeed, I recall reading at the time that the industry was short of around 80,000 staff and in the end they got dispensation from the EU that thy could recruit workers from Poland to fill the gap.

By 2000 most of the modern western EU countries, particularly the UK, were experiencing such limiting shortfalls in labour that expansion and growth was curtailed. The 2003 expansion was the solution and it underpinned the growth in economies, a growth that fuelled the greatest boom in British economic history.

The thing is modernism is dynamic and it embraces change as it solves problems, Brexit is a clodhopping brake applied on that dynamism and the future has now become the past.

The most disgraceful thing about the lies of UKIP and Tory nazis is that they hoodwinked the stupid and the credulous into believing Tory austerity of 2010 onwards was a consequence of our EU membership and similarly the imbalance in wealth between the South and the North of England could only be addressed if we left the EU.

The sheer bone-aching stupidity of the British lower end is almost vomit inducing.

If California were its own nation, it would be the fifth largest economy in the world. With a GDP of $2.9 trillion, California would slot between Germany and the United Kingdom in the world's top economies.

Lots of rumours flying around about what the club are putting in their negotiating wish list, it appear almost anything is up for grabs. This is going to be fooking hilarious. Ireland will be asking for their wind back next - they can have their fukin Pikeys for free.

This is addressed to SA as much as the more simple minded UKIP types, who seem to think that Brexit will mean "Britain for the Brits", and that the UK will no longer be a willing magnet for immigration. You are dreaming- of course it will. Always has been, always will be. At least, as a sop to the Right, such decisions and policies will now firmly be made within the UK. But they certainly will not kowtow to any anti-immigration lobby. The British economy has always attracted immigrants, and despite the fact that a minority of them can be a worry, the UK's economic prosperity relies on it. Just like Australia.

Just bide your time, and soon enough you will find the more strident of the UKIP patriots out on the streets and protesting, when they realise that Brexit meant no such thing. Britain will need and continue to attract immigration, as it ever did. It is primarily about national Sovereignty, vs a creeping Eurocracy that seeks to erode it to the point that decisions involving such fundamental issues as Defence policy are made in Belgian corridors, not Whitehall or the Palace of Westminster. Britain has always been a part of Europe- but never a part of the Continent, with it's constantly shifting borders. Perhaps the fact that our land is girthed by sea explains the Brit attitude, but a Eurostate was never part of the deal. So I would think that Brexit is good news really for the more ambitious EU grand schemers, because the UK would never have consented to such a thing- unless of course, ˙ou want to do it over there. Thats your biz, and beyond Press commentary you will face no interference from the UK.

Like I said, after the wailing and nashing of teeth, and brinksmanship has subsided and the deals have been done, you're gonna find it's basically business as usual. The UK and EU have too much in the way of mutual trade and investment and existing relationships for it to be otherwise.

This is addressed to SA as much as the more simple minded UKIP types, who seem to think that Brexit will mean "Britain for the Brits", and that the UK will no longer be a willing magnet for immigration. You are dreaming- of course it will. Always has been, always will be. At least, as a sop to the Right, such decisions and policies will now firmly be made within the UK. But they certainly will not kowtow to any anti-immigration lobby.

Just bide your time, and soon enough you will find the more strident of the UKIP patriots out on the streets and protesting, when they realise that Brexit meant no such thing. Britain will need and continue to attract immigration, as it ever did. It is primarily about national Sovereignty, vs a creeping Eurocracy that seeks to erode it to the point that decisions involving such fundamental issues as Defence policy are made in Belgian corridors, not Whitehall or the Palace of Westminster. Britain has always been a part of Europe- but never a part of the Continent, with it's constantly shifting borders. Perhaps the fact that our land is girthed by sea explains the Brit attitude, but a Eurostate was never part of the deal. So I would think that Brexit is good news really for the more ambitious EU grand schemers, because the UK would never have consented to such a thing- unless of course, ˙ou want to do it over there. Thats your biz, and beyond Press commentary you will face no interference from the UK.

Like I said, after the wailing and nashing of teeth, and brinksmanship has subsided and the deals have been done, you're gonna find it's basically business as usual. The UK and EU have too much in the way of mutual trade and investment and existing relationships for it to be otherwise.

That's utter bollocks, and you know why? because the economics says otherwise... unprecedented mass immigration has been an economic disaster for the UK, and has fomented and ingrained a strong revulsion for anything resembling immigration. This is the impetus for Brexit, and revitalised the movement which initially was more of a patrician and intellectual rejection of Brexit. It's only with New Labour and its ideological evil that Brexit gained new impetus and emerged as a dissident force. The UK, thanks to New Labour and its global economic crisis created a cost-of-living crisis in the UK, and whilst the Labour Party tries to work out why it was comprehensively rejected from both Scotland, south Wales, and the North of England, and fails to understand, thus precipitating it's inevitable implosion, we now have a rising tide against all things immigrant, certainly until the cost-of-living crisis is abated. More than half of Boris's vote is Brexit, he can't afford to ignore the vehement opposition to mass immigration. That shit is over. The BBC is over. The NHS is over, and the cult of cultural Marxism is over, mass deportation is en vogue.

1. Continued unfettered access to all the UKs fishing waters
2. The return of the Elgin Marbles and any other perceived British plunder
3. All the same EU rules the UK is seeking to escape from.
4. A one sided enforcement of rules by the EU courts
5. The rejection of the UKs ability to throw back economic and other migrants that the EU has failed to police in its own borders.

this list will grow, we've not even seen the tuppence hapenny stuff from Begium, the Drunks country or the oirish. Just keep it coming Barnier coz the sooner this gets to the stage where we just fuk them off and get on with life under WTO the better.

1. Continued unfettered access to all the UKs fishing waters
2. The return of the Elgin Marbles and any other perceived British plunder
3. All the same EU rules the UK is seeking to escape from.
4. A one sided enforcement of rules by the EU courts
5. The rejection of the UKs ability to throw back economic and other migrants that the EU has failed to police in its own borders.

this list will grow, we've not even seen the tuppence hapenny stuff from Begium, the Drunks country or the oirish. Just keep it coming Barnier coz the sooner this gets to the stage where we just fuk them off and get on with life under WTO the better.

When will it sink in that if WTO was economically viable for the UK it would have happened already.