from the sounds-good-on-paper dept

One of the more controversial subjects we've discussed over the years is immigration & visa policy when it comes to skilled foreign workers. At this point, there's more than enough evidence to support two key points: that a skilled immigration & visa program done well creates economic growth and jobs within the country (as opposed to pushing those folks to other countries where they create growth and jobs away from the US) and that the current skilled visa system is massively abused. This often makes it difficult to have serious discussion on the topic, because every time we talk about the importance of getting a program that works well and doesn't send skilled workers away from the US, opponents of the system focus solely on the abuses of the program. However, if you can separate the two issues out and recognize that immigration is not a zero sum game (i.e., a foreign worker doesn't necessarily mean one fewer job for an American worker), then you can start to look at creating a better program for skilled workers.

It looks like Rep. Zoe Lofgren is trying to do exactly that, with a new bill (which again, has a terrible acronym): the Immigration Driving Entrepreneurship in America... or IDEA Act. On the face of it, the bill seems to hit on a few key points that we've discussed in the past. It focuses on getting immigrants with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) green cards, and making it easier for students in those areas to get visas. This has been a huge issue, where top notch students and skilled workers were often forced to go back home, rather than create jobs and growth in the US.

Also, embedded in all of this appears to be a version of the startup visa, that we've discussed for many years. I still have significant concerns about the specific implementation of a startup visa, and the fact that it still relies on venture capitalists as the gatekeeper. That is, a foreign entrepreneur needs to secure money from a venture capitalist to get the visa. I think this relies way too heavily on the venture capital system, which (contrary to what some VCs believe) is not necessary to build a successful startup. It also could put the entrepreneurs in a tricky position where they need a venture capitalist's support not for monetary reasons, but for immigration reasons, and that opens up the system for abuse. However, the overall concept of granting visas to entrepreneurs is good, and hopefully the specific details will help get around these concerns within the bill.

Importantly, the bill also does not pretend that the current H-1b and L-visa programs are free from abuse. Instead, it tries to reform both of those programs to stop the widespread abuse, wherein those visas too often are used as a way to sneak in cheap labor, rather than for their actual intended purposes of keeping significantly skilled labor here.

Finally, the program appears to try to use the money from these new visas to invest in scholarship programs in those important STEM areas, which seems like a good way to invest back into education for future workers.

There are some devils in the details, but it's nice to see a comprehensive attempt to take on a few of these issues that really are impacting US innovation and economic growth.

Investing in education for future workers

I've said it before here and I'll say it again, if that investment isn't for American students then I'd be against this bill. If you study public American universities, more often than not, graduate students at a public university are foreign than American. I don't care about private universities, even though they recent some public money, but at a public university, when foreign students are taken over American students with the same test scores, I have a huge issue with anything that could further increase that imbalance.

Another Question: What Would They Do ?

As someone in the 'skilled worker' category, I don't see many (if any) opportunities to do any actual work. The US does not make anything here, we don't engineer anything here, we sometime have an 'idea' that we don't fabricate here - and we have plenty of people who can screw-driver final assemblies (made elsewhere) together for 'Made in USA' purposes. Could this a ploy for cheaper labor to sell/clean/pick stuff or a stealthy attempt to get someone with intelligence but no authority working in the government ?

It is time for real immigration reform

As someone who dealt with the various subparts of the U.S. visa & immigration system to ensure that I stayed in the U.S. legally, I think it is time for real immigration reform.

Such a system would have only three main categories: Immigrants, tourists, diplomats. In addition to background checks, immigrants would have to pay a flat fee for each member of their family who wants to move to the U.S.

Real immigration reform is not accommodating people who have already broken laws, but about making sure to attract with the highest productivity. Given the choice between paying $10,000 to the U.S. government and being a legitimate member of society versus spending the same amount of money to pay human smugglers who enslave them, even the poorest immigrants would prefer the latter. The U.S. would benefit not only from more programmers but also from more low-skilled workers. Details on my blog: http://blog.qtau.com/2010/05/real-immigration-reform-now.html

Ideally, along with such real immigration reform, minimum wage/prevailing wage laws would also be abolished.

Re: Another Question: What Would They Do ?

Re: It is time for real immigration reform

The U.S. would benefit not only from more programmers but also from more low-skilled workers.

Exactly. If foreign competition for SOME jobs is good, why not ALL jobs? It seems to me that most of the arguments for or against some could be applied to the others as well.

Ideally, along with such real immigration reform, minimum wage/prevailing wage laws would also be abolished.

Correct, again. If U.S. employers could hire workers cheaply enough, then they could afford to hire more workers and invest in creating more jobs and growing the economy. On a personal level, more people could even afford to hire household or personal servants if they were cheap enough. But, for that to work, workers have to cheap and plentiful, and that means bringing them in from other countries and getting rid of minimum wage laws. If somebody WANTS to work for two dollars a day, why shouldn't we let them?

Of course, you have to also make sure that they don't become an economic burden. That means no children, no elderly and no sick. If a foreign worker gets pregnant, old or sick, you just send them back where they came from and replace them with a new one. That's the way free market competition works.

The primary purpose of Lofgren's bill is to flood the market with less expensive foreign workers. Prof. Norm Matloff showed that under the proposed bill, wages for these workers would legally be set at a level well below those of current market wages.

The bill also establishes the Masters degree as the de facto minimum qualification to work in many of these fields.

The bill increases the number of young workers, specifically in the software field, where experience is considered to have little value. Everything changes very rapidly - 5 to 7 years experience is the best you do since anything older than that, is out of date.

I know older tech workers who were laid off in the past 2 to 3 years (they were actually the last to be laid off) but have been unable to find work since.

The age discrimination issue is a serious problem. My former manager was forced out due to age discrimination (after he was over 40 years old - he later received a settlement). Several other workers were in the process of being discriminated against when due to adverse publicity, the company changed its policies.

I have an undergrad degree in computer science. I've worked in Silicon Valley and in the Seattle tech scene. At the age of 41, I earned an MBA. At the age of 52, I am back in grad school earning an MS in software engineering.

Unfortunately, I live in a fading city with a dying (almost dead) tech sector that has lost about 90% of its positions, which means in this depression, I'm out of work, hence, grad school.

I have fears and a lot of anxiety as to whether I will be able to find work next year when we move to a better city for tech.

Presumably I need to start a business and hire and exploit young foreign workers. That is the precise policy implication as it provides incentives to do that.

Let's help US Students FIRST

I'm a high tech pro in the industry over 10 years and I can tell you first hand that our corrupt corporate visa programs are ruining the lives of tens of thousands of American families.

I also teach computer skills in a community college to help recent HS grads and laid off Americans gain new skills to compete in the job market.
Sadly two of my best students last year and their young families became homeless because of H-1b and alphabet soup visa fraud. These people are hardworking, talented and determined. I am 100% confident they have equivalent if not far better skills to the imported visa workers that replaced them.

The US must eradicate unfair corporate visa laws that allow employers to bypass American citizens.

The ONLY reason companies can't find skilled American talent is because they don't want to.

This is nonsense. American geeks, it is high time for us to do more than blog - move away from your computer,get the facts, fax your elected officials, contact the local media ask what they are doing about the problem - and demand they do something to abolish segregated employment against US citizens. sooner not later.

Otherwise the laissez faire media and paid off lawmakers will pass b.s. like this bill and we're lost more ground than we've gained. Corporate visa fraud is a bi-partisan problem and paid off elected officials on both sides of the aisle are NOT representing American citizens.

A big reason nothing has happened is because geeks like me are too wrapped up in their own worlds to realize it can happen to them too - that is until it is too late.

Some brave techs are doing something about the problem - and Dan Rather Reports is telling our story. Don't miss the episode. And, when you finish tell your friends, family and colleagues - make sure all of you call you elected officials and local media and demand they take action

Techs can no longer roll over and play dead on this topic and need to do more than blog to change these laws. Make sure YOUR voice is heard, the job you save may be your own.

Dan Rather Reports With the unemployment rate over nine percent, why are lawmakers, lobbyists and pundits across the political spectrum clamoring to increase the flow of high-skilled guest workers from overseas? Business advocates say U.S. companies need the world’s “best and the brightest” in order to out-innovate global competitors and to create new jobs. Critics claim the federal guest worker visa programs are rife with abusive practices and that there’s no shortage of the best and brightest talent right here – especially now with more than 20 million Americans jobless or underemployed.

Re: Re: Re: It is time for real immigration reform

Are you familiar with the phrase "The industry minimum quickly becomes the maximum"? What happens is that once all jobs in a field can conceivably be filled by people willing to work for scraps, then everyone will be forced to work for scraps, or else not eat at all.

What you're describing is a step backward from a century of social progress. Unions aren't perfect, god knows, but the fundamental reasons for their existence--mainly to keep workers from being taken advantage of by employers--are quite sound.

And the idea that we'll be able to hire our own personal servants, because we can pay them next to nothing? That's rich. How can I afford to pay someone two dollars a day when I'm only paid two dollars a day for my work? Of course companies could hire more workers if they paid them nothing. Then those workers have no income to contribute to a flowing economy. We need more circulation of money, not more of it staying exclusively in the hands of the wealthy. The more money the lower class has to spend, the healthier the economy will be. You'll have a large pool of consumers to sell to. Workers are useless without a consumer base.

Methinks that you've never actually held a minimum wage job. Trust me, if you give business owners the opportunity to screw over their workers, then that's exactly what you're going to see.

Re: Re: It is time for real immigration reform

The U.S. welcomes over one million legal immigrants to the U.S. every year. This is more than enough.

We cannot accomodate the billion plus people who want to come here immediately. Some will have to take no for an answer.

How do you know what is enough? And no, open borders would not mean that billions of people would show up. Immigrants are not stupid and they won't all show up unless they can find employment and a place to stay. If anything, land prices would prevent infinite immigration.

As for abolishing the minimum wage, you are describing bringing back legal slavery.

You would allow an employer to be able to tell someone, "You can work for scraps of food and a mat to sleep on the floor, or I will find someone from abroad who will."

So what you are saying is that there are some people who are in such a horrid situation that working for scraps of food and a mat is better than their currently horrific situation and your solution is to say: "Sorry, you can't even have food scraps and a mat. You'll just had to starve and sleep under a bridge." How generous of you.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is time for real immigration reform

Re: Let's help US Students FIRST

Really sorry about your students. Some people sometimes get in a very difficult position and it can be heartbreaking. That does not however excuse spouting ignorance.

By having more workers, we can produce more stuff more cheaply (which is exactly what economic growth is) which raises the general standard of living. Yes, some people are going to lose in the short term, but assuming you are smart hard working and flexible, you will benefit significantly from the growth.

Seriously... WTF?!

I have absolutely no idea why there are such negative views on allowing more student visas, and more immigration in any way, shape or form. People from other countries want to come into the US with the express purpose of bettering themselves and the lives of their own communities. We have very smart people from India, working in programming.

We have seasonal workers from Mexico (despite an obviously flawed border wall) that comes in to work on crops in the summer seasons.

We have the most needlessly complex immigration system, next only to Japan and their admitted xenophobia on low income workers.

I have friends in quite a few different countries that would absolutely LOVE to come into the US as skilled workers and the system is what is failing them. You already have an ingrained "They took our jobs" stigma from US workers along with a poor job market. People would love to work and learn, making our foundations even better in the US! And suddenly I'm supposed to believe that these people from outside the US shouldn't have the opportunity to advance themselves?

That's absolutely asinine. If this bill can help to bring out the best in other countries, I, for one, believe it should help to bring about the competitive spirit in this complacent US.

Re: It is time for real immigration reform

So what you are saying is that there are some people who are in such a horrid situation that working for scraps of food and a mat is better than their currently horrific situation and your solution is to say: "Sorry, you can't even have food scraps and a mat. You'll just had to starve and sleep under a bridge." How generous of you.

That happens already. Have you visited a car wash in the NYC metro area lately? Or seen what happens in Chinese restaurants?

However, more importantly for citizens, minimum wage laws hurt low skilled workers by preventing them from being attractive enough for an employer to take a chance on them thereby limiting their opportunities to gain work experience.

Minimum wage laws would have to be abolished along with real immigration reform so that coming to the U.S. does not look artificially more attractive to foreign low skilled workers. The only people who would willingly choose to take the risk of starting a new life would be those who believed their output would afford them an acceptable living standard after they have paid the fee, ensuring that only net positive contributors would arrive.

Minimum wage/prevailing wage laws constitute an exercise of market power by those who already have a job to keep competitors out.

Re: Re: Re: Let's help US Students FIRST

I know... The fact that they have no capital goods, no infrastructure and no education system has nothing to do with their current standards of living. Of course population growth is not enough. Nobody here said it was. All that I said is that people are a resource because they are a factor of production. (The other two being land and capital) Having more resources available is a Good Thing. Kicking resources out is a Bad Thing.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It is time for real immigration reform

Given the constantly increasing discrepancy between the rich and poor, it's obvious that 'trickle-down' economics is pretty worthless. In the end, the rich just keep getting richer because it's all designed to benefit them. "Give the rich more and maybe they'll throw a few more scraps everyone else's way."

As for the minimum wage, most of Europe operates one, and in this climate, it's good to know that people won't just force the wage down even further below minimum living standards, or more importantly, be able to import people, vountarily or 'involuntarily' (and don't pretend that 'slavery' is no longer a problem anywhere in the West) who earn less than a regular native worker in the same job.

Funny how it's always the same sorts of people who whine about a minimum wage. I don't think you'll EVER find someone living on or near the minimum wage complaining that they are 'over-privileged' or 'damaging' the economy. In the end, the more people who have money for more than the absolute basics, the more money will be spent on real things in the economy, not ridiculous luxuries.

Re: Let's help US Students FIRST

Re: Seriously... WTF?!

I think the blame rests squarely on those who have given us this weird idea that jobs are a resource that must be shared as opposed to being voluntary exchanges which make both parties better off. If only we could shake off this absurd concept, there are a lot of stupid laws that would disappear and a lot of people would be better off.

Re: It is time for real immigration reform

And the idea that we'll be able to hire our own personal servants, because we can pay them next to nothing? That's rich. How can I afford to pay someone two dollars a day when I'm only paid two dollars a day for my work?

Why would you be paid two dollars a day for your work? Do you not produce anything of value?

Also, even among low skilled labor, there is opportunity to distinguish oneself and command a higher pay by the quality of one's work. Except in union shops where you cannot treat good workers well and get rid of bad workers.

It is amazing to see how quickly people respond with hate and rhetoric without understanding facts about high-skilled immigration.
While the H1B system has its flaws, the authors here hit the nail on the head when it comes to depicting how our immigration system (read high-skilled green card system..this is DIFFERENT from H1B) actually harms US innovation and technology by making skilled talent wait for decades to get a green card. It is a FACT that most companies in silicon valley (including Google) have been founded by immigrants with advanced skills. A stagerring 25-30% of international patents originating from the US have a foreign inventor’s name listed.
People stuck in green card backlogs for years are not taking away anyone’s jobs. And it is a myth that foreign green card holders reduce wages in the economy. If you actually STUDY the immigration process, you will know that each green card applicant and employer has to demonstrate that they are paid ABOVE the prevailing wage for the skill set in that geographic area. So please see through these lies.
Foreign high-skilled green card aspirants (not referring to H1B here) have been living, working, owning homes in the US for years and are part of this country. I have worked with several companies across the US and have always received only appreciation and respect from my American colleagues who value knowledge and talent. I only hope everyone is as aware and open-minded as they are. If we do not resolve the high-skilled green card backlog problem, the next Google or Ford will be created in China, taking away even white-collar jobs from the U.S – in addition to the blue-collar jobs we have already lost.

Re: It is time for real immigration reform

I don't understand why you would want to institute a fee for immigration. What is the advantage of that?

The idea is to set the fee somewhere near the poverty line to ensure that only people who expect make more that (i.e. who believe they can provide more value than they might impose social costs in today's generous welfare environment) to choose to come. Plus, $10,000 is comparable to the monetary outlays --if not the psychic costs-- people incur to come to the U.S. to work illegally, and why not take that rent and maybe fund stronger border controls etc.

Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

That has nothing to do with the argument put forth, namely bringing over skilled workers (ie engineers, mathematicians, architects, etc.) who ply their trade in various ways.

"Is your job at risk from this initiative?"
And what job is currently at risk?

"Does your career value experience or not value experience?"
The "career" that I'm pursuing values skilled workers highly regardless of their background. I don't see your point.

"Most people who favor these initiatives do not have their own jobs threatened. "

I'm well aware of the stagnant growth of jobs in the US. I'm also well aware of the various laws that frustrate the job market in the US. However, it's a very difficult position to try to pigeon-hole someone into believing the *only* way to assist the US job market is discriminatory practices against immigrants. This leads to ICE deporting political refugees seeking asylum. This leads to separation of families because parents are not born on US soil, while the daughter/son is. It leads to the deportation of "foreign immigrants" who have lived in the US their entire lives.

Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

In your view, should there be no limits what so ever on skilled immigrants entering the U.S.? Any limits would be "discriminatory practices", which you oppose.

You managed not to answer any of the questions I asked, which does harm the credibility of your argument. The questions are very relevant.

I suspect your job and career is not threatened - mine very much is and I am scared and anxious about whether I will be able to resume work ever again in this field.

As best I can tell from your non response, you do not care about the actual harm being done to hard working American citizens who working incredibly hard to compete. You simply don't give a damn, do you?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

As best I can tell from your non response, you do not care about the actual harm being done to hard working American citizens who working incredibly hard to compete. You simply don't give a damn, do you?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those in a position to profit from the misfortune of those such as yourself.

Re:

It is amazing to see how quickly people respond with hate and rhetoric without understanding facts about high-skilled immigration.

Especially in regards to doctors. It's about time the government let people make their own health care decisions and pick their own doctors according to their own desires, not just government approved ones. Opening the doors to cheap foreign doctors would do a lot to bring down health care costs.

THE UNDOCUMENTED AND DOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE PAYING MORE TAXES THAN YOU THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE PAYING MORE TAXES THAN YOU THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMMIGRANTS AND TAXES:
Q: “Is it true that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes and drain our economy?”
A: As Ben Franklin said, “Nothing is certain but death and taxes.” Like the rest of us, unauthorized immigrants pay taxes on their property and anything they buy. More than half of them have taxes taken out of their paychecks, but because our immigration system is dysfunctional, these taxes are paid under false Social Security numbers. We need a new regimen in which we know who is paying taxes and can ensure that no one is getting a free ride. The only way to do that is to pull unauthorized immigrants out of the shadows and get them on the right side of the law.
Three state-level studies have found that unauthorized immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in benefits. In Iowa, unauthorized immigrants pay an estimated $40 to $62 million in state taxes, while they and their employers contribute an additional $50 million to $77.8 million in federal, Social Security, and Medicare taxes from which they will never benefit. In Oregon, unauthorized immigrants—who are not eligible for any state benefits—pay between $134 million and $187 million in taxes each year. Finally, in Texas, the State Comptroller found that, without unauthorized residents, the gross state product in 2005 would have been $17.7 billion less.

THE BOTTOM LINE: Undocumented immigrants are an important component of the U.S. economy. They meet the labor demand in sectors in which they do not directly compete with U.S.-born workers. The great majority of migrant workers are taxpaying, hardworking, and law-abiding people who are integrating into U.S. society.

The economics of immigration, Stephen C. Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration and someone who enjoys bipartisan support for his straightforwardness, said that by 2007, the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.
That represented an astounding 5.4 percent to 10.7 percent of the trust fund's total assets of $2.24 trillion that year. The cumulative contribution is surely higher now. Unauthorized immigrants paid a net contribution of $12 billion in 2007 alone, Goss said.

Previous estimates circulating publicly and in Congress had placed the annual contributions at roughly half of Goss's 2007 figure and listed the cumulative benefit on the order of $50 billion.

The Social Security trust fund faces a solvency crisis that would be even more pressing were it not for these payments.
Adding to the Social Security irony is that the restrictionists are mostly OLDER AND RETIRED WHITES from longtime American families. The very people, in other words, who benefit most from the Social Security payments by unauthorized immigrants.

Comprehensive Immigration Reform Would Boost the Economy & Help ALL American Workers: As opposed to the mass deportation, enforcement-only approach, addressing and fixing the immigration system in a wholesale manner will be a boon to the U.S. economy and all U.S. workers. That is why both the AFL-CIO and Change to Win created The Labor Movement’s Joint Framework for Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Dr. Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda conducted a 2010 report for the Center for American Progress and the Immigration Policy Center that found that “Unlike the current enforcement-only strategy, comprehensive reform would raise the ‘wage floor’ for the entire U.S. economy—to the benefit of both immigrant and native-born workers.” According to the study, granting legal status to undocumented immigrants and creating flexible legal limits on future immigration flows would generate enough consumer-spending to support 750,000-900,000 jobs. The report also found that the mass deportation approach would reduce GDP by 1.46 percent annually, amounting to a loss of $2.6 trillion over 10 years.

MYTH: Immigrants take jobs from Americans.
FACT: Immigrants create new jobs, and complement the skills of theU.S. native workforce.

MYTH: Immigrants drive down the wages of American workers.
FACT: Immigrants increase overall economic productivity and have no significant effect on overall wages for American workers.

MYTH: Immigrants will cause massive, unnecessary population growth
in the United States.
FACT: As the baby boomer generation begins to retire and the U.S.fertility rate declines, it will be necessary to replace our aging workforce with immigrants to maintain economic growth.

MYTH: Undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes.
FACT: Undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in taxes each year, often for services they will never receive.

MYTH: Immigrants come to the United States for welfare benefits.
FACT: The law forbids immigrants from using welfare services.

MYTH: The Government should just enforce the law to solve our
immigration problems.
FACT: Enforcement alone will not solve our immigration problems. The cost would be prohibitive, it would have a detrimental effect on
the U.S. economy, and it would simply push certain immigrantsfurther into the underground economy.

MYTH: Immigrants are not assimilating.
FACT: Immigrants are assimilating at much the same rate as pastwaves of immigrants.

MYTH: Immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than
U.S. natives.
FACT: Immigrants have a much lower incarceration rate than U.S. natives.

MYTH: Workers that come to the United States as temporary workers
will stay in the country once their visas expire.
FACT: Historically, migrants from Mexico worked in the United States for a few months or years, but then returned home. Border enforcement has made that pattern much more difficult.

I AM NOT SAYING DONT CLOSE THE BORDERS. I AM SAYING STOP THE IGNORANCE & HATE.

Read this whos to blame for our economy, its NOT the POOR MIGRANTS.

300 BILLION$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are not paid in taxes by USA CITIZENS, WHO CHEAT ON THEIR TAXES THAT's A TRILLION$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ EVERY 3.3YEARS.
DONT BLAME THE POOR, STOP CHEATING AND OUR NATION IS OK. :):)

Before you Scream and show Ignorance and Hate at least read the Immigration Law regarding Undocumented Immigrants.

UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT CRIMINALS. Its a Civil Matter.

The whole thing is perplexing to people who don't understand that being an illegal immigrant in and of itself is not a crime. The most pervasive comments made in news stories about Secure Communities go a little like this: "Illegal immigrants are what they're called — they're considered criminals by mere definition. Illegals who broke a bunch of laws to enter and live here should be subjected to immediate arrest and deportation — that's fair for everyone."

That's not accurate, but a lot of people have that same misunderstanding — even law enforcement professionals.

During a teleconference last month on the troubles that Secure Communities is bringing to local law enforcement agencies, a few sheriffs on the call commiserated about their misunderstanding of immigration violations.

"I was always told it was a felony federal violation of law and was always under the impression that turning over any illegal immigrants (to ICE) was mandated by federal law — and so did my employees," said Sheriff Ed Prieto of Yolo County, Calif. "But after we met with the Mexican consulate in Sacramento we learned it's not. Then I started looking into how many of our people are being deported before trial and I became very uncomfortable contacting ICE for nonviolent offenders."

Kane County, Ill., Sheriff Patrick Perez said that "90 percent of law enforcement officers believe (just being an illegal immigrant) is a crime, but I learned after talking to an immigration judge that it is just a civil offense."

Sara Dill, a member of the American Bar Association's Commission on Immigration and a member of the ABA's Criminal Justice Council, explained it to me this way: "States are seeking to criminalize what is only a civil violation in federal law." Dill said that failing to get a permit for home construction is one example of a civil, not criminal, violation. "Putting illegal immigrants in a criminal context confuses merely being present in the United States without authorization with crimes such as falsely claiming citizenship or identity theft, which are crimes under federal law."

Everyone knows that of the universe of illegal immigrants, some have committed nonviolent and violent crimes — and everyone believes these should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

But believers of following "the letter of the law" cannot continue equating all illegal immigrants living in this country with criminals, who have plenty of civil rights of their own. That's not the American way.

If you are an American citizen, don’t let anyone tell you that you are downtrodden.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

"I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those in a position to profit from the misfortune of those such as yourself."

I'm not. I'm a student similar to Ed, and I'm pursuing a higher end degree (engineering). It's not a non response, I just don't see how my "career" field threatens his plans. In fact, my career field actually helps to create jobs for others. When you suddenly lose people to immigration, it's a rather disheartening proposition. Suddenly, you have even less people working on a job and you're stunting growth in an industry.

I actually happen to know some of those skilled workers that happen to be born in other countries, but can't come here because of our byzantine law. I see it from the other side of the field, nothing more. My career field isn't threatened by more skilled laborers. It's enhanced.

"Any limits would be "discriminatory practices", which you oppose."

I oppose the problems that arise as stated. In regards to the visas, they are ripe for abuse if a job is tied to one's immigration status.

"As best I can tell from your non response, you do not care about the actual harm being done to hard working American citizens who working incredibly hard to compete."

I'm not a fan of this appeal to one's emotions. The job market is invariably more complex than just giving Americans jobs.

Yes, we need immigration with our own aging society on various levels. I don't know what your careers of interest are or how they apply. But asking if I feel the need to protect a job when petroleum engineers usually don't keep jobs longer than 5 years tends to reek of protectionism.

The question that you and Ed seem to ask is do we need to protect American jobs at the expense of greater growth in various industries, and possible higher learning potential for students from other countries?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

I'm not. I'm a student similar to Ed, and I'm pursuing a higher end degree (engineering).

As a graduate engineer, I wish you luck. You'll need it.

My career field isn't threatened by more skilled laborers. It's enhanced.

You're naive. Many of us American engineers have been replaced by cheaper foreign engineers, myself included.

The question that you and Ed seem to ask is do we need to protect American jobs at the expense of greater growth in various industries, and possible higher learning potential for students from other countries?

I choose the latter.

Ah, so you choose "possible higher learning potential for students from other countries" over keeping jobs for Americans. You wouldn't just so happen to be one of those "students from other countries", would you?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

"You're naive. Many of us American engineers have been replaced by cheaper foreign engineers, myself included."

Wait, what...?

I am looking at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics and engineering is a good field in general. Most have a growth of at least 2% (save Chemical, given the US stigma on drugs, I can see why) or more. Where are you getting your information of American engineers being replaced by cheaper foreign engineers?

Furthermore, where is your proof of finding and using cheaper engineers when there those skills continue to be in high demand on American soil?

"Ah, so you choose "possible higher learning potential for students from other countries" over keeping jobs for Americans. You wouldn't just so happen to be one of those "students from other countries", would you?"

No, I'm American born and as I said before, I have friends in other countries that have had to deal with a very complex and byzantine set of laws on the rules that discriminate against other students/workers. The implication that if I'm not American, I'm suddenly not worth a damn doesn't go unnoticed however.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

I am looking at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics and engineering is a good field in general. Most have a growth of at least 2% (save Chemical, given the US stigma on drugs, I can see why) or more.

Which is about 8% slower than the average for all occupations (10%) according to that same source. Kind of left that part out, didn't you?

Where are you getting your information of American engineers being replaced by cheaper foreign engineers?

Personal observation from within the profession as a practicing engineer. I've seen it happen many times. And you?

No, I'm American born and as I said before, I have friends in other countries that have had to deal with a very complex and byzantine set of laws on the rules that discriminate against other students/workers.

All countries that I'm aware of have restrictions on foreigners who want to live and work there. If that's "discrimination", then I bet the very countries your "friends" come from "discriminate" as well. Of course, you complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

The implication that if I'm not American, I'm suddenly not worth a damn doesn't go unnoticed however.

The only one making such an implication is yourself, in an apparent attempt to play some kind of "discrimination" card (yet again).

Re: Seriously... WTF?!

You will change your tune when you exhaust your life savings to pay for college for your child only to realize that - all the seats are occupied by foreign students receiving subsidies and in the country on special visas.

Once they graduate, your children will be denied a fair chance to compete for the jobs in our own country because these corporate welfare visas do not require employers to EVER hire an American, even if they are highly qualified.

My comments are NOT academic, I was replaced by foreign visa workers, participated in worker retraining and unable to register for classes because they were filled to capacity with foreign visa workers.

Charity begins at home. There are plenty of schools in foreign countries for their citizens. First and foremost America must ensure that American citizens get a fair chance for seats in our colleges and jobs. Period.

Re:

The minor inconveniences experienced by foreign visa workers are pale by comparison to the American citizens who have lost our jobs, homes, healthcare, life savings and sadly so much more.

See first hand how these fraud ridden programs impact tens of thousands of American citizens like me and the people interviewed on Dan Rather Reports.http://www.hd.net/programs/danrather/

This is no laughing matter and there is no room for people to insult the integrity and skill of hardworking Americans.

Lofgren and her patsies are paid off by Nasscom and greedy corporations to draft nonsense legislation like this bill. Don't believe me, google lofrgren and India pac to see her on video talking about this - and check opensecrets to see who pays her bills - shocking....

I hope the voters in her district recall her - Weiner screwed some women, but Lofgren screwed the people in her district and the American public.

The H1b propaganda machine is in high gear - but the GREAT news is that law enforcement, the DOJ, and other Federal Agencies are on the case and doing something about it.

Re:

The minor inconveniences experienced by foreign visa workers are pale by comparison to the American citizens who have lost our jobs, homes, healthcare, life savings and sadly so much more.

See first hand how these fraud ridden programs impact tens of thousands of American citizens like me and the people interviewed on Dan Rather Reports.http://www.hd.net/programs/danrather/

This is no laughing matter and there is no room for people to insult the integrity and skill of hardworking Americans.

Lofgren and her patsies are paid off by Nasscom and greedy corporations to draft nonsense legislation like this bill. Don't believe me, google lofrgren and India pac to see her on video talking about this - and check opensecrets to see who pays her bills - shocking....

I hope the voters in her district recall her - Weiner screwed some women, but Lofgren screwed the people in her district and the American public.

The H1b propaganda machine is in high gear - but the GREAT news is that law enforcement, the DOJ, and other Federal Agencies are on the case and doing something about it.

Re: Let's help US Students FIRST

Dan Rather Reports With the unemployment rate over nine percent, why are lawmakers, lobbyists and pundits across the political spectrum clamoring to increase the flow of high-skilled guest workers from overseas?

--> How many in that 9% are tech workers? How many in that 9% can create jobs? How many in that 9 percent kids will go to STEM degree?

You are thinking what you want, not what company wants. When you create a company, you aim is to make profit...more profit... I haven't seen a company is created just to create jobs and not make profit.

Re: Re: Seriously... WTF?!

Charity begins at home. There are plenty of schools in foreign countries for their citizens. First and foremost America must ensure that American citizens get a fair chance for seats in our colleges and jobs. Period.

>> For US Kids to get into school, have them get scores in tests and GPA that matches foreign kids.

Re: It is time for real immigration reform

Highest productivity? That sure wouldn't be India and China. China's economy is a mere 1/3 of USA's and India's a mere 1/7th despite having 4 times more manpower than USA. Japan's workers produce 1/3 the USA's GDP but have a mere 1/10th of China's manpower. Why aren't we importing Japanese and Germans who have already proven they are more productive than India or China? Or is it that that is just an excuse to further the socialist program called Globalization to give something to free to other countries who don't deserve it?

Re: Re: Re: It is time for real immigration reform

Where does all this nonsense come from that cheap is better? Better for whom? A few corporations? Not better for America. The American middle class was built on the idea that workers should be paid more. Henry Ford said "I have to pay my workers enough to enable them to buy my product". Indeed Ford paid his workers THREE TIMES the going rate at the time. As Ford boomed, other companies followed suit and the US middle class and economic booms were born. If US corporations want to live here, they have to be good citizens like everyone else. You're also not considering the national security implications: if we transfer all our tech and manufacturing knowhow to other countries, soon we will not be able to make things we need for defense.

Cheap labor is a stupid idea and must be stopped or the USA will cease to exist.

Re: Re: Re: Re:

In the 2008 International Math Olympiad China scored #1, USA #2 and India scored.... 14th! BWAHAHAHA!!! What a joke. This is a country that can't build enough toilets, master an organized sewer system, and that has many buildings fall down routinely due to poor engineering. India couldn't even master steel until Mittal bought EU's Arcellor. Oh, and lots of the WTC scrap steel was sold off to India because India's steel formulations are know the world over for being unreliable and brittle.

Does she represent Americans or Indians

With millions of Americans unemployed she cares more about foreigners taking our jobs.
America needs to innovate from within..with heavy unemployment the government should cancel the following visas: H1-b, L1, OPT, EB1, EB2 and EB3 which allow foreigners to take American jobs. That's one way we can promote economic growth.
All I have to say is: the politicians that dreamed up NAFTA, CAFTA, and the like including outsourcing must have had rocks for brains to have ever thought those things would be good for our country. How in the world (no pun intended) could fair trade (what a joke) with all those other countries be good for us!!! It was the beginning of unemployment when those things were voted in. Our companies took off for the cheap labor, and our people lost their jobs. Personally, I would rather pay more for things and have Americans employed than to have cheap products from China that don't hold up for long anyway!!!!

Why is our government STILL bringing in 1.5 MILLION foreign workers a year?http://www.americanworker.org/ The vast majority of foreigners here on guestworker visas are ordinary white collar workers with common skill sets. Why, why, why????