Life is a journey. The destination is death. This blog is all about the musings of a sojourner in her thirties, curious about the stops, the fellow passengers, the driver(s), the conditions of travel and the highlights and lowlights. All the while in a place of tranquility: the sanctuary.

Tuesday, June 3, 2014

The hunt for the patron saint of MGTOW is over: Meet St. Jerome!

Apparently, there is no limit to the depths of insanity to which I will sink :-)

Mea culpas aside, I must however keep to the 'feminine imperative' narrative and blame a man :-)

*Someone put me up to this. He set me a task I had never sought to undertake before, but which I relish because it is precisely the sort of daytime reverie I like to indulge in in my own personal time and space.

So, ahoy, descent into utter Madness we go (with a capital M)!

But first, a confession of sorts...

At Mass on 'Christi Himmelfahrt' or 'Auffahrt' as 'Ascension' is now known to me, the priest asked what I took at first to be a rhetorical question: 'Which period in The Church's calendar is the holiest of all?'
I smugly sat there thinking, 'but of course, 'Easter', when else?'

Turns out I was wrong. Apparently, the correct answer is....the ten days between Ascension and Pentecost!
Who'dda thunk? The holiest period in the Christian 'timetable' is now...
And here I am, a Christian woman, about to take a saint, a Doctor of the Church no less(!) to task about what he wrote 1700 years ago which offends my feminine sensibilities. :P

I feel a 'forgive me Father for I have sinned' coming on shortly...

With respect to the task at hand, I had been racking my brains for a few weeks now as to how to tackle my 'mission impossible'.
My brief was simply... a conversation with St. Jerome on his views on MGTOW.

Yes, St. Jerome, a saint of The Church thought 1700 years ago that men should not marry. That women were nothing but trouble.

And here I was thinking this was a modern problem :-)

I didn't get anywhere with this project until a plaque (of a poem by Christophe Plantin) hanging above my old piano startled me a few weeks ago. I have had this plaque ever since an old french-speaking relative of mine gave it to me around 15 years ago. Years of piano practice, and I never even so much as glanced at it. Now that I no longer live in my childhood home, I saw it as though for the first time, with fresh eyes, so to speak.

I provide the french version, because I think it is beautiful: I highlight the part which gripped me the most:

To have a comfortable house, clean and fair;A walled garden lined with fragrant trees;Fruit and fine wine, few servants and few children;The only lover of a faithful wife;

No debts, no love-affairs, lawsuits nor feuds,No wills to haggle out with relatives,Simply content, dependent on no magnate,And by a righteous rule to rule one's life;

To live in frankness, from ambition far;With conscience clear devoted to devotion,To tame one's passions until they obey,

To keep the spirit free and judgement strong,Saying one's prayers while looking to one's pear-trees:A kindly way at home to wait for Death.

I keep finding 'rules for a happy man to live by' everywhere I look these days...I even found one in Beethoven's music a while back, but this one seems to be the best blueprint of all.
So who was this Christophe Plantin?

According to Wikipedia, he was a french printer, a Catholic with humanistic tendencies (go figure). Significantly, he was intrumental in printing a lot of The Church's works, notably, those of St. Jerome.

I started to get excited when I noticed this.

After having read St. Jerome's 'Anti-Marriage rant' known as Adversus Jovinianus, Chapter 48, I suddenly got a sense of déjà vu on seeing Christophe Plantin's words again after so many years.

And I think the reason the words in bold struck me so much was the very real sense that they seemed 'out of place' in a 'Manosphere' anthem such as this seemed to be. It seemed to me that Christophe Plantin (born in 1520), had taken these words out of the mouth of St. Jerome, but had added his own little twist. Afterall, Plantin was a married man with six kids!

So what could I possibly say to The Venerable St. Jerome?

Here is a transcript of our conversation, which admitttedly took place only in my head.

ST: St. Jerome, I come before you with a sincere request.

SJ: (Polishes halo, strokes beard, squints at me).

ST: I would like to understand your work 'Against Jovinianus', especially Chapter 48. There is plenty in there that I do not understand. I wish to understand more.

SJ: (Picks up feather pen, adjusts robe): What I wrote in 'Against Jovinianus' is not meant to be understood by mere mortals of the female kind. It is what it is.

ST: (Retains composure, frantically fishing for an alternaive approach): It is by listening to what the elders of The Church teach that the rest of God's flock may be saved. I have no-one to turn to but you on this specialist matter. No other saint, it seems to me, understands this particular issue more than you. Hear me! Engage with me!

SJ: (Picks nose and flicks residue in direction of a dove, who dodges): I am hearing you. Speak, my child.

ST: I thank you, Your Holiness.

SJ: Call me Jerome. Or Jerry.

ST: (smiles). Jerome. Nice to meet you. (Shakes hand. Surprisingly warm hands for someone who has been dead a few hundred years).

SJ: Speak!

ST: Why do you wish to deprive your fellow man of a companion 'in this vale of tears' in the manner in which God ordained? Why do you only see women as evil, unclean, unworthy?

SJ: (Irritated): I do not!

ST: This is what you say, Jerome. Right here - 'We read of a certain Roman noble who, when his friends found fault with him for having divorced a wife, beautiful, chaste, and rich, put out his foot and said to them, "And the shoe before you looks new and elegant, yet no one but myself knows where it pinches." '

Another example: 'Whole tragedies of Euripides are censures on women. Hence Hermione says, "The counsels of evil women have beguiled me." '

Yet another: 'In all the bombast of tragedy and the overthrow of houses, cities, and kingdoms, it is the wives and concubines who stir up strife. Parents take up arms against their children; unspeakable banquets are served; and on account of the rape of one wretched woman Europe and Asia are involved in a ten years' war.'

Why do you only see the bad in women?

SJ: I only report what I see, ST.

ST: Yes, fair is thine word. But were there no better examples than the ones you chronicle in this book of yours? Were there no good women around you?

SJ: (Shakes head, sighs): You miss the point of my book!

ST: (Incredulous): But how? I quote back to you what you yourself say!

SJ: Yes, and what you quote back to me is taken out of context!

ST: (Inhales): So, explain me...this is precisely why I come to you.

SJ: There is a reason I wrote this book for men. A man would have understood what I wrote. Chapter 48 is merely a prelude to Chapter 49, in which I outline the rules for both men and women, in which can be found marital happiness if indeed a man must marry. In the instruction of a man, he must understand the risks of this undertaking that marriage is. The language I use is severe, yes. But it is the language that a man understands. For it is he who takes on the burden of a wife and family. I soften not my words for him, for in so doing, I fail him. I tell him what he needs to know. If after everything he hears from me he chooses to marry, be it on his head the consequences of his actions. A man must be responsible for the decisions of his own self and his household. This is not something I expect a woman however intelligent to understand.

ST: Forgive me, Jerome. I do not intend to belittle your advice to men. If it is not contrary to your principles, I still seek to understand. Is it bad for me to try to understand you?

SJ: Not at all. But you tread on dangerous ground. This path is not flowery. It is not pretty. It may not be safe for a woman. Do you wish to proceed nonetheless?

ST: By all means if it is not sinful so to do!

SJ: (Laughs): No, not sinful, no. Foolhardy, yes.

ST: Then so be it. I shall be a fool in the quest for knowledge!

SJ: So be it, then. Your wish is my command.

ST: Thank you. May we shake hands on that again?

SJ: (Waves a way my hand): No more handskaes. Once was enough.

ST: (Sharp intake of breath, mournful look): OK. I get it. This won't be pretty.

SJ: Exactly. Let's keep to the script. A man must get over his petty joys and pleasures and see the world as it is, before he takes on the responsibility of wife and child(ren). It is the essence of masculinity. Even with faith, this is a pre-requisite, for to do otherwise is a recipe for failure. From whence I get my various examples outlined in Chapter 48. Capisci?

ST: You are Italian-speaking, St. Jerome!

SJ: (Shakes head): Did you not know I lived in Rome, ST?

ST: (Smiles, then lightbulb moment): Ah! I see! So you are giving examples of where men can go wrong!

SJ: Exactly! See? You can be intelligent when you want to be.

ST: I see your line of thinking now. But I have to admit, it wasn't so clear reading Chapter 48.

SJ: You were never meant to read Chapter 48 in isolation.

ST: True.

SJ: In Chapter 49, I give advice to young women to be chaste. This is the best way to persuade men to marry them. Do you know what chastity in a young woman leads to for a man who marries, ST?

SJ: (Mock bow): Exactement! Well done, ST. This is the point your married friend Christophe Plantin was making when he lists the characteristics of a happy life for a man. Christophe found a femme fidèle. If he hadn't, he would have written his own 'Against Jovinianus'.

ST: (Mock surprise): How did you know about Plantin?

SJ: Come on now...I am a saint. I am immortal. Honestly, you mortals!

ST: (Laughs).

SJ: I am not against marriage, ST. I am very much for holy marriages. It is precisely because I see that many men are not yet ready for marriage, and indeed many women are chronically unsuitable for marriage that I give the next best advice: do not marry: seek an alternative path to salvation. The next generation is dependent on the sanctity of marriage. Done wrong, an unholy marriage is a breeding ground for devil's troops. I say it clearly in the first paragraph of Chapter 48: 'And shall he desire children and delight himself in a long line of descendants, who will perhaps fall into the clutches of Antichrist, when we read that Moses and Samuel preferred other men to their own sons, and did not count as their children those whom they saw to be displeasing to God?'
A good marriage produces 'soldiers for christ'.

ST: (Nodding): Because a holy marriage is a sacrament. An unholy marriage is just another path to hell...

SJ: Well, put that way, it seems harsh, but yes. You are beginning to get the hang of this.

ST: You are a good teacher.

SJ: They didn't elect me 'Doctor of The Church' for nothing, you know!

ST: True dat!

SJ: So, now do you understand? I teach what is right, for men. You women can also learn something from me. The details you can learn from the virtuous women of The Church. Of which there are many.

ST: Yes, like Our Lady.

SJ: Well, she is the best. But there are others. Saintly women dead or alive are everywhere.

28 comments:

Throughout the history there were many wise men who spoke against marriage, but as usual younger men think they know better and marriage was the route to sex, so...

As Daniel Tosh said: "Marriage is for women and gay men." ;-)

I think MGTOW left 'Manosphere' station some time ago already. 'Manosphere' is some kind of male version of hamster and there is no useful progress or growth. Only dog chasing his own tail i.e. GAME. MGTOW on the other hand is heading into 'unknown' as far as I can see. Stardusk and Barbarossaaaa are two good examples of what I'm talking about. Basically, rejecting previous preconceptions and starting with blank sheet of paper. This is both constructive and sooooo exciting. Can't wait to see what's coming!

Sorry for the week's delay in responding (I am, however, all moved into my mother's basement now :). But this St. Jerome MGTOW post deserved more than a just brief note of praise.

You are a subtle thinker and a gifted writer. If you ever do go by another nom de plume, I bet I will detect you: I know your voice.

That's some provincidence, that Plantin printed some of the works of St. Jerome. I'm like you (a Catholic AND a humanist?), I would read much into that: But of course! Plantin read Jerome's anti-marriage rant! And of COURSE, Plantin added the "femme fidele" exception clause! (Because his wife made him hahaha)

THOUGH, as you point out, ST, in the rest of your dialogue, even St. Jerome allows for the exception. He's marriage booster.

Somehow (although I sent you Adversus Jovianius link and put you up to it), I missed that part! :)

So your hieronymic dialogue not only made me laugh out loud -- it made me see something crucial I'd missed.

May this post do the same for many. Keep writing, ST! Keep thinking! (In that order? :) )

"Life is a journey. The destination is death." But _chez_ The Sanctuary, the waiting is sweet.

I haven't read the writings of St. Jerome, but after seeing this, I may have to.

Why would the idea of a faithful wife be unheard of in the Mannosphere? This of all places, where we see men who have been truly torn by the worst actions women and government have to offer...these men are the perfect people to discern the good from the bad. I'm reminded of Dalrock whose wife FELT unloved while he did what society told him regarding loving his wife, and Athol Kay who managed to marry a woman with a high tolerance for husbandly indecision. Both of these men independently found how game was able to help them secure their relationships...with their wives.

@ Metak

If you truly think there's no growth in the mannosphere, then you probably want to pay closer attention. In particular, I'm reminded of Tyler Durden of Real Social Dynamics. Compare and contrast his early writings with those that come later, and you will see someone who improves over time by stages.

Other times, writers come into the mannosphere, say what they have to say, then reduce their participation or leave. In this, I'm reminded of Danny from 504 and Badger from Badger Hut. That passing of the torch room for new growth to sprout among the ashes of the old.

Sorry for delay in replying for me too! Blog access has been skimpy for me all week. Apologies!

Metak,

Hahahahahahahaha, I know it doesn't look that way, but honestly, I HAVE let go of MGTOW. It was Mac's fault for taking me back there, LOL.

Metak, are you SURE that older men preach against marriage? Perhaps you mean that they see that younger men are not going about it the right way, or are not ready? It cannot possibly be true that young men en masse are advised against marriage. That would be the end of humanity and I think elder men are sensitive to the need for the perpetuation of the human race :-) Given that marriage (in whatever form it takes depending on the culture) is the most effective way to achieve the birth and raising of balanced, healthy children, I don't think marriage will ever be condemned by the elders. Perhaps like St. Jerome, our elders want to see it done right - or not done at all, which is different from saying that they are against marriage.

Do you chastise young men from seeing marriage as a route to sex??How could you??Should there not be a reward for men, in the same way as marriage provides a reward for women? Whoa, you are being harsh with your brothers today, Metak :-)

Also, I have to agree with Ceer. The Manosphere DOES grow - in different directions, but there is growth alright. Everyone is learning something, so it is not a perfect science yet, so to speak. But it is in general a good platform to address some of today's issues. Yes, there are those who are in it for the apparent discord, but most people, I think, wish to use it as a platform to air important views...

I never heard of Stardusk and Barbarosa...who are they? I welcome links!

Sanity? Metak, you KNOW I lost mine some time ago :-)

Glad to hear you've still got yours :-)

Mac,

Thanks for revealing yourself as the source of this wonderful project. Glad to be your first asterisk :P

And thank you for your compliments! Made my day :-)

I got really spooked when I made the link between St. Jerome and Plantin. That's when I really got started on this project. This is what I meant when I said I was following a 'lead' :-)

It was a great experience for me to think about a saint like St. Jerome in this way, having the familiarity it takes to 'converse' with him in this manner. Thank you for this experience. Perhaps I could do that with other saints? A few people on this blog mentioned St. Augustine, who as you know had similar views to St. Jerome regarding women and man-woman relationships...perhaps it's time to have a chat with St. Augustine as well!

I think you would enjoy St. Jerome's works. It would certainly seem familiar to you. He wrote loads on the subject of immorality, debauchery and the perils of hedonism in Rome circa 400 AD. He was a one-man Manosphere character of his day :-)

"Why would the idea of a faithful wife be unheard of in the Mannosphere?"

I see what you mean...

Perhaps this is an unfair accusation of The Manosphere as a whole, but one of the reasons MGTOW exists is that many men feel (and they are sadly not wrong) that the numbers of women who would make faithful wives are dwindling, due to the prevailing promiscuity of our modern times...

It is not the ONLY reason of course, but it is an important reason. Much of the Manosphere has taken this view, so it is (to me) a kind of 'Manosphere mantra'. Remember AWALT?

I would hope that many more men would realise that they have a role to change things in a way that would benefit them. Remember my 'Civilise us!' war-cry?One doesn't even need to be a father of a girl to do this - being a young man on the streets is enough. Show disapproval when your college friends are misbehaving. Women DO care what men think (at least the young ones do :-)

Anyway, I see the point you are making. Married men like Dalrock who DO have faithful wives of course know the value of a faithful wife - even if they have to 'game' these wives to achieve marital harmony :-) No-one said marriage was a bed of roses, LOL.

I second your sentiments on the evolution of The Manosphere...I do miss Danny, but I undesrtand why he had to leave. Certain things have to be consmed in small doses, mouthful by mouthful. The Manosphere is certainly one of those things!

I've been a lurker of your blog for a couple months. I'm also an early 30's Catholic Male whose swallowed the Red Pill, a PUA and now is MGTOW.

If you aren't already aware, on Reddit there's a community of women(red pill men are welcome too) called Red Pill Women

http://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/

They are traditionalists, anti-feminists and see the red pill as a sexual strategy to increase/preserve their SMV and making themselves as valuable(marriage/motherhood material) to a man as possible.

I believe these women are like minded to you. Why is a MGTOW man going to the trouble for a woman?? Deep down inside I have an extremely minute amount of hope there are still decent women out there. But I know in reality the probability of me finding one is minute. But even if I find one, i have no legal protection against Divorce Rape(live in the USA). All I have is a "Woman's word." That's not good enough for me. A lot of MGTOWs say "the only way to win is to not play the game." They're absolutely right. My Self preservation is on the line, my life. I'm not going to gamble when i know the odds are against me. The juice is not worth the squeeze.

But if there's anyone, even one person, even a woman who will listen, then it's worth preaching the Red Pill and strengthening a community of Red Pillers. All big things had small beginnings...

I don't have to have faith that there are good women out there, I've SEEN them with my own two eyes. Then again, I engage in social activities that include women almost by necessity. My issue with the cultural situation is that women are taught to devalue family AND men in the name of furthering a political agenda, THEN have the audacity to blame the very people they're fighting against for the problems in their own lives that adherence to their ideology causes.

Some women see through this. Many of the ones I know naturally realize that all people require some sort of negative reinforcement as a way of holding society together. Recently, one of my female friends remarked to me that it's very difficult as a woman to know proper etiquette. Such a woman can be forgiven for being confused. Men in our society are taught that ANY communication not completely in line with a woman's whims (or feminine imperative in general) is a serious application of misogyny. Why should that be? Women have to LIVE around men. In order to live around someone, means that you cannot have life all your own way. So, to me, ANY feminine worldview that doesn't take into account the needs and desires of men is inherently disordered.

Oh, dear... PUA, seriously Ceer? Any kind of growth in that department is just like cancer growth and PUA literally kills you from within (spiritually and mentally) like a cancer. God knows that I've went trough so much of their crap and it still makes me sick when I remember it. What these guys are selling is hardly something new and History proves it. Ultimately all PUA techniques boil down to man entertaining the "hamster" i.e. engaging in conversation to keep the "hamster" busy (hamster: neocortex, higher functions) while using other methods to "circumvent" it and 'influence' the lower part of the brain that responds, not thinks, plus if you're skilled and know how to throw in some NLP in your delivery... etc. This is where man's voice, touch, looks, smell, etc. etc. come in. It's more important how you say it than what you say... how you look... touch.. That's why PUAs have their to-do list like routines. They know which stimuli produce the desired results. What a gianormous waste of everything... time, energy, spirit, money, etc.

Manosphere will become mostly popular among Catholic men and other blue pill fractions who think they've took the rep pill or whatever... (MRAs etc.). Hence, dog chasing its own tail. Barbarossaaaa said that MGTOW needs to grow beyond that and Stardusk also touched on this very same issue in his video "Why MGTOW is the way forward". Moving away from all that mind-f*ck. Exploring new things, enjoying life, etc. I won't troll you further with my BS... ;-)

@ ST

I said WISER men, ST. ;-) (at least I'm getting older... 'wiser' part still eludes me...)

No, I don't chastise young men from seeing marriage as a route to sex. I'm just saying that once upon the time that was what men did. Now, they should know better and stay away from it.

LoL Women already 'infiltrated' MRM and good portion of 'manosphere' and all this talk about how husbands 'game' their wives literally made me wanna throw up when I read that post on Dalrock's blog about CAF forum and pissed off husband. Some men really have no self-respect and love for themselves.

As for the perpetuation of the human race... I see no problem.

You can't write about MGTOW without knowing who are Stardusk, Barbarossaaaaa, Spetsnaz, etc.

You don't say how you made contact with the saint, and I need to contact him urgently. Can you give an email address or some such? I wont be at all surprised if you tell me carrier pigeons are the only method of contact - in which case I'll need some advice on how to use these birds.

Having read the transcript of your discourse with him, I think he'd be the best man (saint) to give me some much-needed advice on a subject I don't want to disclose here yet, except to say it's a matter of the heart.

I see my old friend, brother Metak, is still prowling these portals, inimitable as always. If you read this, brother M, it's me, brother Down Under - still living in my secluded cottage. Peace!

Down Under

P.S. to ST: You play the piano? So did I for 15 years, starting at the age of 4. Mozart and Beethoven were my favorites.

I have heard of that Reddit site, but I haven't had time to go over yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems like a delightful place to discuss similar topics relating to the SMP. I shall have a look!

Thank you for the 'God bless'!Right back at you :-)

There is something in your post which prompts me to compose a whole new post, in a sort of reply to you on this point. Something to do with 'a woman's word'. Ceer, in his comment to you is on the same lines as me on this issue. Stay tuned!

Ceer,

Your comment to Anonymous is spot on. The world will never be balanced unless men and women learn to live together in harmony. Much of the time, one or other is being selfish. In the current era, it is mostly women who are being rather more selfish than men. This is alarming, because we were not designed to be the selfish sex, for obvious reasons. And of course we are seeing the fallout play itsef out right before our very eyes...

I agree with you that women who have the feminist view on life are of little use to society. Except that group that PVW called the 'good feminists' (gosh, she asked me to research this subgroup ages ago and I haven't managed it yet - aaaaarrrggggghh!) but I reckon this subgroup is not part of feminism at all. Perhaps they are mislabelled :-)

in all seriousness, the madness has to stop. How many more casualties of this insanity do we want to see before we call a halt to this war?

Mac,

What a lovely prayer for me! Thank you very much :-)

You're absolutely right, of course. It is precisely when I am not worthy that I need the most Grace!It's a nice, uplifting thought. I shall remember that!

Metak,

Thanks for the links! I shall have a look...

"Women already 'infiltrated' MRM and good portion of 'manosphere' and all this talk about how husbands 'game' their wives..."

:-)

Women...we get around, don't we, LOL.

I don't think it matters that women realise they are being gamed. It still has the same effect. It makes it MORE pleasant for a woman when she knows she is being gamed, not less! Bellita and I had loads of examples we shared about being gamed and finding it a nice experience (mostly). I think the woman Dalrock wrote about is actually a woman who HADN'T been gamed, and see how she was about to tear her family apart on the say-so of strangers on the internet, for (as it turns out) quite minor issues. These minor issues however only came to light after her husband intervened and wrote his side of the story. Without his testimony, it seemed as though he was a ne'er-do-well character who played video games all day... Not true, as it turns out. I hope he finds a way to keep his family together. Something tells me Game might come in useful.

Again I reiterate that I don't think Game is a 'solve it all' tactic for a man to get a woman to do whatever he wants. No. I think Game (when used properly) is a tool to enable a man to guide a woman to achieve a higher goal than just herself. Good men use Game very effectively. And it's wonderful when that happens. Where Game is used for low-end goals, every one suffers in the long run, including the Gamer.

St. Jerome says to tell you that he is very much contactable. No i-phone or computer necessary :-)Apparently, he never made it down under in his stay on Earth in circa 400 AD, but he doesn't see why he can't cash in on his saintdom and take a trip to see you at your beachside resort. It's a perk of being a saint, you see, all expenses paid holidays at the expense of the heavenly taxpayer, all in the name of 'helping out an Earthly brotha' :-)

Carrier pigeons? They don't do business with St. Jerome anymore...not after he was caught picking his nose and flicking it at them...but that's a long story apparently...

Nah, you have to make direct contact with old St. Jerry. Pick a time, date, venue of your choice, let him know you are there, and he'll be there.

:-)

You a pianist too?Fantiastic! It has always been a close call between Mozart and Beethoven for me, although I think for me, Beethoven just edges out Mozart. After that, the Sacndinavians Grieg and Sibelius hit the spot, closely followed by the heavy hitters Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Bruch, Elgar and Tchaikovsky :-)

I was referring to married men commenting on Dalrock's blog not the husband. My bad.LOL ST, I promised myself I wouldn't play that GAME with you... ;-)

When you visit St. Jerome next time, would you mind asking him to pass a question to his 'superior'? Something is bothering me... why would 'he' make pheromones in human women and iguanas a chemical match??? Funny how everyone talks about "attraction" and whatnot, but no-one bothers to mention something like this and its implications... oh, well.

Again, sorry ST, sometimes I just get frustrated when I take a peek over the wall to see what's going on "The Plantation". :-)

@ Down Under

Hello! Nice to hear from you again. :-)One of these days I'm gonna set all these portals on fire! ;-) Just kidding...Nah, I'm already on my way towards something like you have, small place to live and reasonably away from this crazy world. It really is beyond KU-KU crazy.Enjoy the dream, brother Down Under! ;-)

@ST,It is with sorrow I report that I tried everything you suggested and nothing worked. I have failed to make contact with the saint.

It concerns me greatly that I might be out of favour "up there". I mean, you made the contact apparently without effort! And here am I, with a need much greater than yours, left out in the cold (are you sure carrier pigeons wont work? Or horse-back? North Pole pony express?).

If all else fails, I was wondering if I could prevail upon you to act as messenger between me and St J, a kind of courier, so to speak. Sadly, I cannot offer you any worldly reward for this work. It would however be an act of kindness on your part, a charitable gesture of such magnitude, you should certainly receive many stars in your crown "up there". (The number 100 popped into my mind just then. Wonder where that came from - another message for you, perhaps?)

O dear, I failed to pay you the courtesy of a reply to your question "you got piano hands?". With the greatest of apology, haste and humility, here's my answer:

Yes and no. My paws are the size of a catcher's gloves, but the fingers of the left one are twisted due to injury. At a glance, they look like Franz Liszt's hands, but they no longer function like his, I'm afraid (sob). On second thought, they do function much as his do now, if you get my drift.

ST, may I add "compassion" to the large and growing list of your attributes?

That is simply a difference in emphasis. Both sides recognize the poison of the current situation, but choose different methods of making the best out of a bad situation.

Women as a whole CAN demand what they want in a man...they define the rules by which men play, just as men define the rules by which women play. The big threat to the future of society isn't either PUA or MGTOW, it's blue pillers that insist on continuing to build yesterday's society on top of today's moral code. It's like trying to build a castle on top of sand.

Allow me to indulge in metaphor. From my point of view, PUA says to build a ramshackle hut on available sand while MGTOW says to go inland and live in caves. If my goal is a castle on bedrock, what are those options to me? A true homebuilder has no option other than to deal with the reality of the ground under him, even if to reach bedrock, he has to remove some amount of loose earth by force.

@ ST

I'm sorry if the implications of the previous argument scare you...but I truly believe what I said in a previous thread.

What is clear is that women are a necessary part of the solution. You can't have men and women building a future together if women refuse to put in the effort. I don't have to remind you the alternative. My point though, is that because men's intentions with women will always be tainted by self-interest, it HAS to be women who work to undo the culture of hate that is feminism.

I was just yapping on how the 'process' works and why it's almost like a second or third job for a man just to make her heppppyyyy. Puas are more like Blackwater mercenaries that don't really have a moral code while mgtows enjoy the scenery and ponder on meaning of life and such... and you're right, about the blue pillers, but they can't really help themselves. Stupid is, what stupid does. There's still a whole lot of emotional growing up to do, to eventually catch up with rapid technological progress our species achieved in the last century.

"they define the rules by which men play, just as men define the rules by which women play"

Borg Consensus always wins. I know religious men hamster it all up, but even Taoists had it figured out centuries BC.

If were in your place, I would just make two goals and play some football... but, I know, that would actually be too close to enjoying your life. :-)I feel for men like you Ceer, I really do. Even though we live in times when it's getting harder and harder and beyond pointless for those 'homebuilders' to build their homes, they still persevere. One day, they come to a realization that they've been shoveling shit for better part of their lives, spending all that time basically, under surface trying to reach that bedrock... just to find a note that says "thanx for playing, better luck next time!". -> Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. Or something like that... :-)

Feminism is there to stay in the west, Ceer. It's not just women supporting it, there are also other parties involved in this, pouring huge amounts of money into all this. It will get only worse as time goes by.

Take care. (and if you insist on 'digging' through to the bedrock, may all gods watch over you ;-)

Might it be possible that you are crazier than I?:P(Rhetorical question)

Metak,LOL, is that true? Human and iguana pheromones are a chemical match?

:-)

Well, I put the question before St. Jerome to pose to Our Lord. I am yet to get a reply on that one though... :-)

Hey Metak,

Don't get frustrated! If a peek over the wall gets you down, might I suggest a naughty but effective solution? Every now and again, remove the 'k'.I shall leave you to figure that one out whilst I make my way to confession :-)

Hahahahahahahahaha!

(Forgive me Father for I have sinned. In a moment of weakness, I suggested a naughty action to my neighbour...but he needed cheering up and this is the first thing I could think of to achieve that...please don't judge me, I am only human, but I could do with some of that extra Grace you have in the pot for emergencies...)

:-)

Down Under,

I am so sorry there has been a delay with your making contact with St. Jerome :-(

I was thinking about why this might be...

Could it be that that pesky difference between men and women is holding you back just a teeny bit?Let me explain: you need concrete proof that something happened. For me, reality is whatever I make it to be, LOL.It's not a good policy to live life, in general, I know. But in this case, it helped me.

Mac, can you help?As you started all this with St.Jerome, do you have any tricks up your sleeve for your bros Down Under and Metak?

DU, about classical music...well, see what I've got for you in the next post :-)

Sorry to hear about your hand injury. I hope it doesn't prevent you from indulging in some good ole piano-playing now and again.

Ceer,

Yes, it's scary, but I will get over it.

"What is clear is that women are a necessary part of the solution. You can't have men and women building a future together if women refuse to put in the effort. I don't have to remind you the alternative. My point though, is that because men's intentions with women will always be tainted by self-interest, it HAS to be women who work to undo the culture of hate that is feminism."

You know, Ceer, this is the crux of the matter. We can dance around the problems of the SMP all day, but a la base, THIS is the most effective solution. I agree with you 100%.

The good news is that there are so many women who are willing to turn their backs on their errant mothers and try a different way. But will this be enough?

I sincerely hope so!

It would be so nice to achieve 'righting the sinking ship'. Sure, it will be hard, but I am sure it can be done.

There will be tears. There will be brutal bruises. There will be spilt blood. There will be sweat.

Ahhhh... I SEE. I spent a good hour analyzing your words :"Could it be that that pesky difference between men and women is holding you back just a teeny bit? you need concrete proof that something happened... reality is whatever I make it to be, LOL"... And then I saw the light! Instead of persisting with my hitherto unsuccessful approach ("breaker breaker calling Saint Jerome, calling Saint Jerome, do you read, over...") I will get in touch with my feminine side, get chatty, then pop the question. I tried it and it sorta worked BUT... should I be elated or deflated by his response? You be the judge.

Here's the transcript. I should explain:1. The words between square brackets are by way of clarification, and are not part of my discussion with St J2. When it comes to emoticons, I'm a newbie and some of them might not be appropriate. Please make allowances accordingly.

So, here we go:

Me: Jerr (i do sooo hope I'm not being too forward with the 'Jerr' but you have been my absolute favourite of all saints ever since I was in pigtails and i've always felt i've known you really really deeply all of my life ;)). i never tried to contact you before coz your way too alpha for humble little me! :P But i'm at a crossroads and-

Him [interrupting]: WHO. ARE. YOU?

Me: I am a WGHOW and-

Him [interrupting again]: What is the precise [sic] distance between your kneecap and your navel?

Me [taken aback and momentarily dropping my feminine facade]: With what degree of flexion at the hip?

The only thing is...next time, use your own identity. You don't need to be a chick to make contact with the Jerr. He is an 'equal opportunities' kinda guy, yer know :-)Actually, you might find that he prefers chatting to men than girls :PEspecially on this topic...

I realise I am dragging you out of your comfort zone by suggesting this exercise to you. So due allowance has been made to take into account your suffering!

You may well feel that you would rather gorge your eyes out than 'get in touch with your feminine side', so respect to you for trying!

where would I end up if I just remove 'k' here and put something else elsewhere... LoL ;-)You know ST, life is not a "Porky's" movie, you can't just put it in there if there's a hole in the wall... ;-)

I have all sorts of discussions in my head... and in different languages too. Okay, now I take it back ST, you're the 'normal' one here. ;-)

"(Now all I gotta do is convince Metak to try this as well...)"

It was a short one... I knocked... he said, "Wrong house... Brothel is just around the corner...".

I don't really 'operate' strictly in these terms, masculine & feminine side. It's just another unnecessary thing to do and I strive to make my life as simple as possible. Two sides of the coin. Useless to try to find 'left' or 'right' side. They're there and in many ways it's just necessary to unlearn some of the things we've learned as my master Yoda says. One of the reasons I walked away from religions long time ago. No wonder Jerr was pissed. ;-)

Having disposed of the Jerr issue, I can now apply my attention to your query, can I still play the piano?

Again, I have to say Yes and No. My right hand's okay, but with the left one I can only do glissando. So I tried to adjust. I went through every score I could lay my hands on and highlighted all the glissando bits. Then I played them, each and every extracted glissando, one after the other, all the way through. Strangely, no-one seemed to like it. They said it was too repetitive. The cheek of it! Combined glissando from Ravel, Debussy, Ginastera, Liszt, Mozart - all those composers - too repetitive?

Not to be defeated, I decided to go the whole distance. I would change my first name to Glissando. "Glissando Down-Under" had a nice ring to it, a certain erotic undertone, a suggestion of furtive busy-ness in low places, if you will..

To spice things up I added some glissando from Jerry Lee Lewis. I thought this was a stroke of genius. People would be sure to jump like Jerry when I came to his glissando - I mean, it was so well known! And surely they'd make the connection between "Glissando Down-Under" and "Great Balls of Fire"! But... they didn't. They couldn't even tell the difference between the glissando from Jerry and the glissando from the "Bread and Butter Waltz"! Jesus wept...

So I've retired from the piano. However, all that glissando has added some side benefits to my fingers that have made my life as a MGHOW a little easier to endure.