Omni can jungle fine, most heroes can. You don't see it much because it really just doesn't add much to your team. Jungling is typically reserved for heroes who need gold and can't reliably get it in a lane. Enigma wants to rush his blink, Axe wants to rush his anything, N'aix/Lycan/Ursa can't really lane well against most anything.

I've gone jungle Omni and done just fine (though I rushed Lothar's because I was trolling a 4 agility carry pub team), but I wasn't really rolling in gold or ahead in levels. Probably would've done about the same in lane.

Also, Enigma's jungle is not really safe. A hero like DS can easily just run up to him at level 1 with ion shell and force him to the fountain instantly. Eidolons cost all of his mana and are extremely easy to smash at level 1/2. I have stolen Enigma camps before as DS, killing his 3 eidolons and then taking his 3satyrs is a quick level 2 to surge away if anyone tries to help. If they do, now you've screwed over TWO people on their team. The biggest thing about Enigma is that no one really ever invades him because he can just walk away since he will be full health and is ranged and has a stun.

Omni can jungle fine, most heroes can. You don't see it much because it really just doesn't add much to your team. Jungling is typically reserved for heroes who need gold and can't reliably get it in a lane. Enigma wants to rush his blink, Axe wants to rush his anything, N'aix/Lycan/Ursa can't really lane well against most anything.

I've gone jungle Omni and done just fine (though I rushed Lothar's because I was trolling a 4 agility carry pub team), but I wasn't really rolling in gold or ahead in levels. Probably would've done about the same in lane.

In pubs people tend to see Omni as a pure support and get really uppity if you say something about needing farm. Jungle won't get you levels any faster than lane, but it'll get you more gold than if you were having to rely purely on pulls. And while I'd say Omni's useless for initiating a gank, he could pop out of the jungle to counter a gank, which I guess is useful.

Also, Enigma's jungle is not really safe. A hero like DS can easily just run up to him at level 1 with ion shell and force him to the fountain instantly. Eidolons cost all of his mana and are extremely easy to smash at level 1/2. I have stolen Enigma camps before as DS, killing his 3 eidolons and then taking his 3satyrs is a quick level 2 to surge away if anyone tries to help. If they do, now you've screwed over TWO people on their team. The biggest thing about Enigma is that no one really ever invades him because he can just walk away since he will be full health and is ranged and has a stun.

Venomancer can mess with Enigma for a couple of levels, too. DS fucks everyone because lol he's DS and a hero that's broken because he's too good at pretty much anything and everything. Ion Shell's just so damn versatile.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

I don't know, people solo the long lane with DS all the time and it's pretty easy to stop. Last night I played a game with friends (RD I think it was) and we laned radiant pudge(me)/PA bot lane. I just sat in front of the wave - barely in EXP range - while PA farmed. DS was level 1 when we were level 5. He was probably getting gold from spamming shell, but he died twice without having surge (lolol stifling dagger > hook/rot). Eventually their Venomancer had to come bot and help just so he could get experience (we killed him, too, since he was underleveled from the trilane top).

He can also be counter jungled by anyone with a hard nuke. See what ES can do with long range fissure. You have no way of finishing camps off quickly so he can just stand there until you have the camp at 100 health and take all of it with fissure.

I don't know, people solo the long lane with DS all the time and it's pretty easy to stop. Last night I played a game with friends (RD I think it was) and we laned radiant pudge(me)/PA bot lane. I just sat in front of the wave - barely in EXP range - while PA farmed. DS was level 1 when we were level 5. He was probably getting gold from spamming shell, but he died twice without having surge (lolol stifling dagger > hook/rot). Eventually their Venomancer had to come bot and help just so he could get experience (we killed him, too, since he was underleveled from the trilane top).

He can also be counter jungled by anyone with a hard nuke. See what ES can do with long range fissure. You have no way of finishing camps off quickly so he can just stand there until you have the camp at 100 health and take all of it with fissure.

Wall of Replica is definitely absurd, though.

How were you threatening DS right from level 1? Pudge wouldn't be scary until level 2, and I'd certainly hope a solo DS would hit level 2 before a duo Pudge/PA lane.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

They're all melee heroes, so with some proper denying is not impossible, also dagger+rot slow you to a crawl, so he'd have to be extra careful (rot's slow lasts a small duration, so by rapidly activating/canceling it you only take minor damage).

DS walks to lane, shells creeps, pudge comes and rots the hell out of him. DS forced out, PA does't push lane, pudge keeps rotting DS cuz hes prolly too cool to shell himself and go fuck with pudge(and even if he does that, the pa can help pudge, and its a 2v1)

Yeah, DS had to tower hug the entire time. Especially once I was level 2 and he was still 1. He tried to shell me and fight but PA just blink strikes to him and he has to run anyway.

I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.

I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.

Level 1 shell doesn't hurt that bad, PA just nuked the creep and denied after that.

Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.

I usually play him as a "bruiser" type hero. so My item build is More- Boots of travel, Basilius, Hyper stone (for armor only), a slow (SnY for extra speed, or the one that has maim and evasion- depending on needs) and Desolator. Its a build most don't expect and ends up working well if your team mates haven't feed all game, or ones self.

If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.

How did Tide escape nerfs in 6.75? Seems like a hero with no glaring weaknesses, just a good generalist that seems to be just a little too good at too many things, like DS was (arguably still is.) Okay, well, Ravage speed got nerfed some.

But he otherwise was left untouched. All of his skills are very strong at every phase of the game, his stats are overall pretty good, and he doesn't need many items - usually just arcanes and blink dagger as necessities - so he can be played as a hard support effectively, but he's also effective when given some farm. He's seen in aggressive trilanes, is a fairly common solo offlane due to his immense tankiness without items, and can be effective in an aggressive duo lane role with Gush and Anchor smash for quick damage.

Just seems like the guy's just a little too good at everything, maybe due to his complete non-reliance on items combined with his powerful skills (which all remain good even in the late game since they all scale decently.)

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

Because the anchor smash nerf back in the DotA1 days was enough to make him a boring hero forever. R.I.P. carry TH </3

Also, it seems that the balance changes were geared toward bringing other heroes up to this level instead of bringing heroes down. Morph is still mega stupid, increasing the mana cost of morph strength does not in any way/shape/form prevent him from diving past three towers at level 6 or escaping a 1v4 gank. At the same time, Jakiro made a massive leap up to at least A tier support and makes CM an extremely questionable pick for any occasion now, in my opinion. The buffs to Clock made his early game fantastic and Undying's tombstone is just absurd in all ways, taking him from easily one of the strongest laning experiences in the game right now to actual mid-game team fight initiation/utility. Many heroes that were rarely picked you will start to see very often as the community catches on to how awesome some of these changes are.

Could you for once at least attempt to properly articulate why Tidehunter needs to be nerfed? Other than hero is good, no weakness, op op op. My grandmother probably could tell you about Tides weaknesses in 2 seconds if I asked.

But I agree, the old Anchor Smash was pretty hilarious. I do prefer the new one, but constantly doing pirouettes with Battle Fury was funny.

Seems like they increased the width of the path along with everything else. I do agree it's probably a little bit too good right now. Maybe an extra second or two on cooldown is needed.

Originally Posted by Hermanni

Could you for once at least attempt to properly articulate why Tidehunter needs to be nerfed? Other than hero is good, no weakness, op op op. My grandmother probably could tell you about Tides weaknesses in 2 seconds if I asked.

But I agree, the old Anchor Smash was pretty hilarious. I do prefer the new one, but constantly doing pirouettes with Battle Fury was funny.

I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.

I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.

If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.

Missed this, Omni's swing is slow as shit, but out side of that he has decent damage and Degen aura is annoying as hell. Phase boots are a good start, but BoT and a SnY are where its at, SnY gives you maime and run speed that you other wise have to go manta/halberd for (2 slots- probably better options, needs testing) will agree with vlads- damage, life steal and mana are always a plus on melee mana heros. I'm not a fan of Soul ring in general, but medallion would be good choice too. All of that is what makes playing omni as a Bruiser possible.

I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.

You're just describing every support and utility hero in the game. Yes, Tide is good. But why is he too good? He isn't amazing in late-game where getting a good Ravage in time can be very hard againt one or more BKB's. You can reach a point where you're just a walking Ravage but whenever you're not landing spectacular ones that result in full team-wipes the enemy might be able to retreat, buy back if they lost someone and push your racks while you don't have Ravage. Tide is very mana-dependant as a melee support, meaning he will have little impact on lane without mana and can't chase people away from lanes easily. You're fairly useless against pushes until you hit level 6 or whenever your mana or Ravage are down.

Tide's always been a good hero, but I don't see any reason to why he should be nerfed. Every hero in the game has serious weaknesses and it shouldn't take more than a moment of consideration to find them.