At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.

No, it can also be infinity regressive or based on something axiomatic.

Lets allow Sheldon to explain.....

Axiomatic arguments are ultimately circular. Regressive arguments ultimately never solve themselves (correct?). Yet still any argument draws support from the laws of thought, which is non-falsifiable and presupposed in any attempt to disprove it. Its circular.

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

"I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church." - St. Augustine of Hippo

Canon of Scripture was given in Pope Damascus I's Sacred Council of Rome in 382, ratified in Synod of Hippo 393, accepted at the Sacred Council of Carthage 397 and 419 under St. Augustine, and Pope Innocent I reiterated it to a Bishop in 405.

Point being is that eventually to give existence some form of coherency some things must be presupposed and those things are non-falsifiable. That makes all coherent reasoning circular. Extended point being that just because something is circular does not mean it is unreasonable.

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.Axiom:All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.

At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.

At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.:

Allegedly... no way to confirm the veracity.

Merely meet God and interact with the power of the saints. Verified.

2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.:

Self-imposed importance... no way to confirm the veracity.

God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.

3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.:

Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity.

That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.

At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.:

Allegedly... no way to confirm the veracity.

Merely meet God and interact with the power of the saints. Verified.

2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.:

Self-imposed importance... no way to confirm the veracity.

God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.

3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.:

Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?

Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.

Wow Gil that last part has earned a place in my signature. Nicely said :)

"Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under." - Gileandos

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice - Proverb

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.Axiom:All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.

The only way you can even form that axiom is to presume the laws of thought. Its circular.

I've been trying to set up a meeting with him since I was a child... He never answers. Ever. And as for his "saints":

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Gandhi

God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.:

So by that vaccuous rationale, I can assume the same God-imposed importance exists for the Mormon church and for Islam.

That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?:

Extraordinary claim, aye? Trillions upon trillions of people believed in what you would consider false gods from the Pantheon for millennia... That enough proof for you, sport?

Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.:

It is possible that I'm deluded, just like I said they are [possibly] deluded. You sure like to cherry pick.

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.Axiom:All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.

The only way you can even form that axiom is to presume the laws of thought. Its circular.

Food for thought:

Laws of thought properly called logic, are based upon an evidentiary process.Laws of logic are universal and self existent. We discover them through a process of philosophy. We do not presuppose logic works but we see the experiential evidence that it works.

These are not presuppositions.

Circle = to work around the same premise. Supporting premise with the premise.Presupposition = to work back the mere statement/claimAxiom = to work back to the evidentiary base