Sorry about the delay getting this out. Things are busy this week for me.

Originally, I wasn’t going to say anything about the Elam-Frost debate. To me it was an epic failure from almost all perspectives that I best avoided. However, as I wrote my post on Man Up 2.0 & Game 2.0, I changed my mind because I realized there is a fundamental failure in in the Gamer vs. MRA wars. I will talk about that later in this post. First, to get a flavor of my thoughts (and of MGTOW in general about this), read what some of the men at the MGTOW Forums had to say about the Elam-Frost debate:

Frankly, while I think I follow their individual points, I can’t figure out just what the debate is supposed to be about. Seems to me it boils down to

Elam (zeta male): “Chasing pussy is more trouble than its worth!”

Frost (PUA): “No, it isn’t!”

So it mostly works out as both of them calling each other a fool or other slurs. I’m pretty disgusted by it. And I usually like Elam. Am I missing something?

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I don’t really see the point. The only overlap between the Game community and MRAs is within the values of individuals.

Being a PUA is about getting laid. Being a MRA is about actually changing things or at least making a stand. One group is focused on fucking women while the other is an activist group. The aims of the two groups are completely different.

I don’t have a problem with guys learning stuff to get laid but it has little to do with the legal and cultural realities we deal with.

——–

I’m so bored with the PUA versus MRA debate that I could spit. It’s as easy as ‘To thine own self be true’ imho. I’m not about to become dogmatic about MGTOW; seems like a contradiction to me. Men need to stick together these days. Pussy has divided us enough. To each their own.

——–

True. Men can go their own way and definitely have sex. There’s a difference between that and letting it “control” you though, (like a drug). Also jumping through hoops or ego boosting to get laid is counterproductive. If you don’t do those things, that’s great.

——–

I listened to the AVoiceForMen radio podcast last night and was so disappointed. As a MGTOW, I already feel pretty disconnected from most of the blue-pill world as it is. At least most of the PUA’s recognize thatsomething isn’t right. That’s enough for me to feel like those guys, while they don’t have the same end-goal as me, at least aren’t fumbling around in the dark wondering what happened. Basically, I never felt like the PUA guys are “the enemy”. And it seemed like Paul has been really pushing for that. Very disappointing.

——–

I think it’s important to understand that MGTOW, MRA and PUA aren’t mutally exclusive or inclusive. You can be all three at once or just one. The fact that most guys who fit in one category usually fit into one of the others doesn’t really mean that the three things are significantly related.

You can be a MGTOW ghost and not be an MRA, like I am. There are PUAs that are non-MGTOW pussy beggars and PUAs that are MGTOW.

——-

I thought MGTOW was about … Men Going Their Own Way … or am I missing something?

The Roosh and Trollsidian examples are sideshows compared to the real problem of scope here. The real problem comes from the Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 contingent. What is Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 all about? Co-opting game or manosphere ideas in general by providing minimal or fake empowerment of men for the purpose of benefiting women. In the mens rights world we have already dealt with the mens rights equivalent which include the socons/tradcons, white nationalists, and other fringe groups trying to co-opt the MRM. In the game world this has not been dealt with yet.

This isn’t just an academic question. Game 2.0 subverts game in a manner similar to how marriage 2.0 subverts marriage. It’s also no surprise that the same groups that promote game 2.0 are the same groups that tried to co-opt mens rights. Some of them are just trying to defend the status quo and the preferred female form of promiscuity like Susan Walsh. Others are just pissed that MRAs don’t hate blacks and Jews such as 1stdv who said this about the Elam-Frost debate:

I’ve long suspected that many MRAs are motivated primarily by a pathological hatred of white women and not women in general. For example, one MRA who I will not name gave a sperm sample and listed his race as Caucasian despite being East Indian – and then bragged about getting back at some white feminist when a brown baby comes out. This might be one of the sickest things I’ve read on the Internet, but it fits well into the pathological hatred of white women. Further, blaming (white) women for our troubles partially absolves “people of color”.

If one were to apply what Paul Elam said about game to just the Man Up 2.0/Game 2.0 morons, then Elam would me more or less completely correct. (The Game 2.0 morons do not need to actually understand game at all. All they “know” about game is that it can be used in a bastardized form to bludgeon men and attack mens rights.) However, Elam is not willing to make this distinction. The other side doesn’t see the problem.

There were also other problems with this whole debate such as other gamers who couldn’t understand that there is a false rape industry, but no rape industry, and many other side problems that are too numerous to list here.

Lastly, there is no one strategy that will defeat misandry by itself. The entire principle if MGTOW is each man going his own way, not Frost’s way or Elam’s way. I found Frost saying that the “seduction community” would defeat feminism incredibly laughable (beyond the fact that most of the seduction community has never heard of mens rights or is explicitly pro-feminist).

In the end I still respect Paul Elam. He does things to advance the MRM even though he doesn’t understand the actual problem here. I didn’t care about Frost before this, and I care even less about him now. I find his dedication to nebulous and poorly defined “self-improvement” a waste of time especially when it comes to the paleo diet plan, something that will be in the dustbin of history in a year or two like every other diet of the last few decades.

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31 Responses to “The Elam-Frost Debate Was A Disaster”

I agree pretty much with what you wrote. I think that there could be a modus vivendi between the non-G2.0/man-up types and MRAs, as I explained on Chuck’s blog, but we’re quite some ways away from that, and the G2.0 guys seem to be in the ascendancy right now in the manosphere.

I think there are a lot of generational issues seeping in as well. Guys like Elam and Zed and Anon69 and Glenn Sacks and the older MRA set are *not* guys who became MRAs because they couldn’t get laid. They were getting laid as they wanted. What motivate(s)(d) them was the legal and social climate.

The younger guys (here I mean the Frost/Bardamu/Chuck generation — age ~25 group) were attracted to MRA sites either through the Roissysphere and Roissy’s writing about MRA issues (while not embracing MRA at all, really) or through other MRM sites that tend to focus on how women are bitches and so on. So quite a few of these younger guys assume that most people involved in the MRM or most MRAs are guys who can’t get laid, and are therefore angry at women, and blame these guys for not “manning up” and learning Game. In other words, it seems to me that guys like Frost and even Chuck at times seem to view the typical MRA as an undersexed loser who can’t get laid, and who therefore hates women, and who is recalcitrant in his refusal to learn Game — the idea being (and was articulated by both of those guys) that if they learned Game, the problems they were complaining about wouldn’t really be problems, because Game solves just about everything. This is, of course, absurd — but it is a strong belief in some of these guys that they can effectively duck the problems MRAs talk about if they have good enough Game. That’s where the dysfunction comes in here.

The younger G2.0 guys may be right about the guys their same age who are on MRA sites and writing in comboxes — a good number of these guys do seem like guys who can’t get laid for whatever reason. But the guys in Elam’s generation are generally NOT like this, nor are the guys in my generation (roughly the same as yours). So when guys like Frost were saying that MRAs are just bitter losers, I was like “WTF are you talking about, son?”. Of course I didn’t say it that way, because I know that kind of condescension is pretty irritating and renders anything said along with it ineffective. But I do think they have quite a bit to learn about the limits of Game, and they need to work harder to avoid making grandiose claims about what Game can and cannot solve in the lives of men.

These two aspects really *should* be able to get along as two different and compatible approaches to life for men, with overlap for many men. Instead we have a lot of misunderstandings and recrimination, and a lot of it seems to be along generational lines, which makes it harder to solve.

the G2.0 guys seem to be in the ascendancy right now in the manosphere.

This is one of the big problems with this. A lot of guys in the MRA, ghost, and MGTOW (depending on how they GTOW) are very good at detecting a new form of man up and pedestalization for women. Regardless of the validity of anything about game, these guys will reject game because of the game 2.0/man up 2.0 aspect.

I think there are a lot of generational issues seeping in as well. Guys like Elam and Zed and Anon69 and Glenn Sacks and the older MRA set are *not* guys who became MRAs because they couldn’t get laid. They were getting laid as they wanted. What motivate(s)(d) them was the legal and social climate.

There are plenty of generational issues, but they play out in ways that neither side of this debate fully understands. It used to take decades before a man would be fed up with female BS. Now, for many men it only takes years. Somewhere in the Elam-Frost debate, Paul Elam pointed out how he gets email from 16 and 17 year old teenage men who are already tired of female BS. I have observed similar things. These guys, despite being young, aren’t going to care about whether game works or it doesn’t. All they know is they’re tired of women. This isn’t going to help the “older guys” either because they don’t fully understand the reality these young men face.

These two aspects really *should* be able to get along as two different and compatible approaches to life for men, with overlap for many men. Instead we have a lot of misunderstandings and recrimination, and a lot of it seems to be along generational lines, which makes it harder to solve.

The way game should fit it is the same way that going expat fits in to all of this. Game is a tool not a worldview like Frost, Chuck, and others have made it out to be, just going expat is a tool not a worldview.

I would wager a guess that Elam is a guy that women are strongly attracted to. That is why he said, “all you have to do is take a shower”. Frost on the other hand might have had some problems, or he just enjoys TALKING about how to go about getting women.

The real confusing thing for me – Paul Elam, in one of his radio shows said something like this, “I used to be a drug rehab counselor – I believe that you cannot listen to anything anybody says, you have to pay attention to what they do”

This is actually a time honored phrase, “By their deeds you shall know them”.

So, given that, why care about anything anybody says in these circles (or types) – shouldn’t we be focusing on what they do – like signing petitions, and whatnot?

Or perhaps even starting flame wars with other men or groups of men?

I am interested in hearing what the men in these circles think about this.

Its very easy to see how somebody who spends the bulk of their time focusing on the most brutally oppresive aspects of misandry, the kind that costs men their freedom, their fortunes, their careers,ect, might be quick to dismiss a man’s sexless or undersexed plight as a comparatively trivial concern. I think Paul Elam definitely either sees the struggle that so many men have with establishing and maintaining realtionships with women as exaggerated or as something that pales in comparison to what other men suffer under our respective feminist regimes.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of whatever legal obstacles are placed in the way, men will continue to pursue women, false rape industry or no false rape industry, it is what it is. Due to this one fact alone Game and those who teach it are essential to a man’s mental health and happiness. What I personally can’t stand about the PUA crowd is there ridicuilous pretentions about Game being some unstoppable cultural force that will somehow dismantle feminism and misandry. I really don’t know how they arrive at that conclusion, the only somewhat coherent answer I’ve heard from that faction is the same old ‘lets collapse the system and then rebuild a patriarchy from the rubble of the fallen matriarchy’, the same argument is made by most in the MRA and MGTOW camps. Hardly something new.

Those MRA’s who are truly activists are actually working to directly challenge misandry, whilst PUA’s only help individual men lead a more enjoyable life, they do nothing to counter to legal and cultural structures that create so much male discontent. Each have a role to play but they both need to remember their place.

As an aside, I too am disturbed by the amount of PUIA’s on Susan Walsh’s site, and remember its cunts like her who are the ones getting actual press attention, she’s acting as some kind of defacto spokeperson for critics of the current SMP. I can’t stand the crowd over there, brimming with women who want a man to commite to them, provide for them, marry them, but will accept nothing less than a man with tight game. Her agenda is to intice men into upping their game, while also trying to soften some of the harsh realities that women face is the current sexual market place such as inevitable spinsterhood and barren wombs.Susan wants women to have the best beta male stability and alpha male excitement. My stance is this, men are so helpless and disarmed when it comes to responding to womens constant, collective attacks upon us that we need to embrace whatever weapons we can find. If eventual spinsterhood is all we got then we need to shove this down as many female throats as we can find. If its the only way to make women suffer, they we should want as many women to suffer spinterhood as possible. It’s against the interests of all men for women to avoid suffering, the less they suffer the more unwilling they will be to allow changes to society. Therefore we in manosphere need to continue to ruthlessly name and shame Socially Conservative women who are obsessed with “making hookups fair” as Dalrock would say.

As an aside, I too am disturbed by the amount of PUIA’s on Susan Walsh’s site, and remember its cunts like her who are the ones getting actual press attention, she’s acting as some kind of defacto spokeperson for critics of the current SMP. I can’t stand the crowd over there, brimming with women who want a man to commite to them, provide for them, marry them, but will accept nothing less than a man with tight game. Her agenda is to intice men into upping their game, while also trying to soften some of the harsh realities that women face is the current sexual market place such as inevitable spinsterhood and barren wombs.

It’s actually worse than that over at Susan Walsh’s place. Consider the fact alone, that her blog is the only place that still links to and hasn’t banned or run off Trollsidian.

Susan’s agenda is very similar to the socon agenda of making sure hookups benefit women and getting women to look for a chump slightly earlier than they do now so that more kids (or any kids) get produced. Susan Walsh is worried that her daughter’s generation isn’t going to be able to follow the same alpha carousel and then marry a chump script that she did because men have wised up. That’s why she takes game ideas like the 80/20 rule, which says 20% of the men are having sex with 80% of the women, and tries to mutate it into 20% of men are having 80% of the sex but only with 20% of the women. This is a true game 2.0/man up 2.0 example, and it’s just like Middle Eastern dictators who say one thing in English for Western consumption, but the opposite in Arabic for local consumption in the countries they rule.

The only reason Susan Walsh gets a minimum of press attention is because she’s basically a female Bill Bennett without the religion (and gambling problems).

There are two things that constantly go on over there that tell you everything you need to know:
1. Anytime appropriate and rational skepticism is shown about a woman who decides to “stop being a slut”/”date different guys”, Susan Walsh will say something like accusing the skeptics of being equivalent to Andrea Dworkin.
2. Susan Walsh hides the reality of divorce in 2011.

Obsidian doesn’t much pull the stuff on her blog that he does after awhile at just about all other game/hbd blogs he used to post on. Were the blog is mostly white guys and girls he’d soon be doing his shtick of “what is it that smart white guys can’t get laid, with supposedly less intelligent brothers can”. When lots of black females are in attendence as they were for awhile at his own blog, he asks black females why are so many of them willing to gave no bf, rather than dane to go out with a non college graduate blue collar brotha (like himself). Then he’ll bring up that his supposed gf black sugar is a nurse. Same shtick endless with variations. Plus of course he does both of these things in increasingly baiting fashion, after getting a bit of initial cred on the blog.

You were doing fine until the last sentence, when you started talking about something you know nothing about. To wit, diets. I am guessing you are either a doctor, or believe what your doctor tells you. The M.D.s are pushing low fat; high carb, which guarantees you to have high blood pressure; diabetes; eventual heart attack; perhaps amputations and blindness from the diabetes; perhaps Alzheimer’s; increased chance of cancer, and in general poor health and low mobility.

Amazingly, it was already noted in 1814 that a low carb diet gave superior health. So much for modern medicine.

I don’t know about the Paleo, for sure. I do know about the Atkins diet, especially the New version. Unless you are very old and in perfect health, you may want to read GOOD CALORIES BAD CALORIES by Gary Taubes. He documents how the M.D.’s managed to get it exactly backwards.. And, why both AW and AM are such ugly, fat hogs, including the doctors themselves.

Any good low carb; high fat diet will make you healthy. I use Atkins, and the new version is so much easier. See THE NEW ATKINS FOR THE NEW YOU.

I am 69 years old; can unload 110 pound bags of cement from my car (in Mexico bags are 110 pounds); can walk five hours in the mountains, and weight what I weighed when I left the Army in 1966, 175, down from 220 pounds. I have been on an extreme version of Atkins for five years, because of hypoglycemia. Not once in that five years have I been hungry. Starvation diets simply do not work.

If you don’t know anything about the paleo diet plan, then why did me talking about it generate this reaction from you? Low carb is a general concept. Paleo is a specific diet plan. Personally, I don’t care if anyone here is following a particular diet plan. I just have to wonder why it’s getting pushed so much in the manosphere. I have seen lots of these diet plans come and go, all of which made the same claims as paleo, and I’m only 33. I’m not particularly impressed by any diet plan from the last few decades since they all end up getting declared bunk for one reason or another after a few years.

Now, I could certainly be wrong about this – and in light of this article’s premise, I don’t want to launch a 2 week debate – but I suspect that *most* paleo dieters are not obsessive about it; rather than a DIET with rules and journals, paleo is more of a trend; red meat, lots of eggs, cheese, some green vegetables and nuts, little to no pasta or bread (though I love me a good sandwich now and again).

Going on a more-or-less paleo diet has got me into the best shape of my life. When I was in the army I couldn’t do one-armed pushups; now I’m 30, and I can punch out 20, with each arm. My waist is down to a 33/34, and I suspect that if the italian in me didn’t crave pasta every so often, I could get it down to a 32.

Honestly, it works; all the scientific evidence I’ve seen lines up with it (aside from the obviously-broken studies used to support the modern diabetes diet). We evolved to eat meat, not grains.

The documentary ‘Fat Head’ is a fun introduction to it. I highly recommend you find it on megavideo.

What it comes down to is I have heard this all before. I’m only 33 and diet after diet has come and gone over the last 20 to 25 years. With each diet, there were lots of people proclaiming the virtues of that diet. Then a couple of years later the diet would be discredited, and everyone would move on to the next diet.

We evolved to eat meat, not grains.

This statement is problematic. Evolution does lead to a fixed steady state. It continues. Plus, there is such a thing as hacking biology so we’re not limited by what our ancestors were doing 15,000 years ago.

I tend to agree with Whiskey’s assessment on the situation, PUAs are directly playing into the feminist agenda. Given the opportunity most women would rather ride the carousel with game enhanced Alphas than play the MRA game where they have to cede control to men.

Even the most grandiose PUA will eventually settle (have yet to meet one who hasn’t) which means the carouseler gets to have her cake and eat it too, while keeping the feminist controlled legal matrix.

MGTOW seem to be the antithesis to the system but it is a burden too heavy for any significant block of men except for outliers (low value men and extremely high value men).

I’ll have to disagree with you on Whiskey. I vaguely remember his comments on Obsidian’s now-defunct old blog in which he argued that the reason mainstream feminists like Denise Romano and her ilk vehemently oppose Game is because they want beta males to “know their place” and basically become eunuchs propping up the status quo through hard work instead of trying to learn Game and become “counterfeit alphas”. His opinion was that women want real, easily identifiable alphas, not betas who want to come across as alphas so as to finally be able to have lots of sex. Whether he’s right or wrong is a different matter, but that was his POV.

On the other hand, he also argues that Game is basically a social non-issue because only a tiny minority of betas will ever learn and internalize it. Thus it’ll only have effects on the margins. I cannot disagree with him.

We shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking that Roosh, Ferdinand or Roissy care about men’s rights at all. For example, Ferdinand has once specifically stated that he isn’t an MRA, and Roissy’s indifference and even contempt towards MGTOW and the MRM is palpable. Their main goal – other than simply being bloggers for a hobby – seems to be narcissistic, attention-seeking self-aggrandizement in the form of utilizing their popularity as bloggers to cross over into publishing. Roosh has already done this, Ferdinand has said he’s planning to debut as a writer and Roissy has dropped hints that he wants a book deal by revealing his real identity to mainstream newspapers. I’m sure he hasn’t dropped that goal. I’m not saying this behavior is objectionable or misguided, but then again, it’s a clear sign they don’t consider themselves to be a part of any movement, be that the mainstream, sanitized, pro-feminist seduction community or the MRM. They seem to be interested in personal gain and nothing else.

I sense the same mentality among other bloggers as well. Obsidian and Alte, for example, were obviously aiming to leech off the growing popularity of the MRM by luring its leaders to their own blogs and converting them to their own creeds. It’s questionable whether they ever cared about the concept of men’s rights at all. Susan Walsh obviously craves some form of mainstream acceptance and exposure by preaching the concept which you correctly named “Game 2.0”. I’d guess her main eventual goal with blogging is also a book deal (or more precisely, deals).

All in all, it’d be misleading to frame all this as a clash between various movements. What I see are a bunch of competing attention-seeking bloggers with differing agendas but sharing the aim of cashing in on the obvious intellectual bankruptcy of the reigning feminist system by offering ideological alternatives.

Better stay away from Alte’s blog, Hollonhund and Hooking Up Smart, too.
Why? Because I will be sure to let the two bloggers know that you think their character is shit and they had bad ulterior motives.

People like you give the MRM a bad name. I’d have to have some, you know, actual evidence (besides disagreeing with YOU on this or that ) before I’d make such accusations.

I think that H actually makes a reasonable point here, Clarence, though he takes it to a cynical extreme..

Hey , I agree with the Hound from Hell. Who’da thunk it.?

“Their main goal – other than simply being bloggers for a hobby – seems to be narcissistic, attention-seeking self-aggrandizement in the form of utilizing their popularity as bloggers to cross over into publishing.”

I have noticed this too.. Bloggers cashing in on their popularity seeking to write a book. I have been reading blogs for sometime now and I have seen the attitudes of some change for the reasons H has mentioned above.

FWIW though, I don’t think S.Walsh falls into that category.. I don’t think that she is narcisistic at all ..She rolls with the punches. Takes criticism quite often ..(unlike some others who have glass jaws) And I have had run ins with Susan in the past as PMAFT well knows.

I do believe that she is sincere in her endeavours, however, whether one agrees with her or not.

Athol Kay, though narcisistic, I think started off with good intentions.. And some good advice..Much of his recent stuff is pure candy floss.. And the way he’s been plugging his book, I think the dollar signs are in the eyes now. 😉

This is the mistake people seem to keep making. It’s not about being a pickup artist, it’s about taking control of your life with regard to dating and relationships. SOME of the guys learning how to be better with women will be the stereotypical PUAs like what people probably have in mind, but the rest, and based on my experience with over 4 years in the community, the majority aren’t what most people would envision. In fact I dare say a good percentage, if not the majority, has no idea what the term PUA even means, nor have they heard of Mystery or read The Game. Most are looking for dating coaches these days and come from all walks of life. This is the new majority when I have classes or attend seminars. Most of the guys are “normal” and just want to be more proactive. Long story short, be careful when throwing around lingo and stereotypes.

I wouldn’t say they’re a huge problem. They’re easily identifiable. Again, the so-called Manosphere is exactly the place where they’re likely to be quickly refuted. See Roissy’s brilliant criticism of Bennett’s article.

Would you say it’s gaining, or just becoming more visible? I don’t know who that guy is, but for a long time there have been quite a few people who I have suspected of being proponents of Man Up 2.0 (before I was using that name) in the manosphere, who were just biding their time until they could reveal their true colors.

I’m not sure, but I see it popping up everywhere now. “Men need to man up”, “women are fucked up because men are not manned up and are not properly leading women”, “men need to get game and be the men women have always wanted, and returning to anything else pedestalizes betas” and so on. It is now running rampant.

This sort of attitude probably won’t achieve anything besides highlighting the intellectual bankruptcy of present-day feminism and further vitalizing the free-range men, as Zed calls them. Everytime bullshitters like Bennett and Hymowitz open their mouths, more young men abandon social conservatism and more free-range men get further proof that they’re on the right track.

I’d say the one thing we can say with any amount of certainty about this issue is that time is on the side of free-range men. The mentality which holds men exclusively responsible for all social problems is the remnant of the long bygone patriarchy, so we can be sure it’s destined to become more and more marginal. Socons like Bennett will simply die off and there are fewer and fewer like-minded useful idiots to replace them.

Absolutely brilliant thread PMAFT! This topic is so important and needs to be reiterated over and over. The main thing is that there are so many people who will extend a perfuctory, half hearted defence of men’s rights and anti feminism, but only as an extension of their own pet idelogy. In terms of actual empathy and righteouos indignation of the part of men themselves, they have none. Take Christian Social Conservatives, they are pro marriage and wish for women to be in a cermonial position of what they deceptively call “submission”. This cannot be acheived without men, so they are somewhat pro-man by default, but the moment men indicate their unwillingness to act as ultilties the claws come out. Very few Christian manopshere bloggers can recognise that, regardless of what men can and cannot due for society/women, they are currently getting a raw deal and deserve a redress of their grievances. The only Christian women that I’ve been able to discover who authentically care about mens rights are Grerp, Laura Grace Robins, and Hestia (when she was still around), the rest are worthless clowns who simply want to pimp their own pet ideology. Alte is particularly bad.

I have the greatest respect for A Voice for Men and The Spearhead because they are one of the few places that actual has its main focus on men’s rights, free of any one, single, uniting ideology or poltical belief.

[…] had this say about gamers and their fake MRA sympathies. We shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking that Roosh, Ferdinand or Roissy care about men’s rig… I sense the same mentality among other bloggers as well. Obsidian and Alte, for example, were […]

[…] It seems like gamers think that only one person with a million sock puppets disagrees with them. I came to this conclusion after reading the following comment at PMAFT’s. That “debate” was proped up by AlexNovy and Mr. 100 sockpuppets “hurr durr gamers have no self… […]

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