The Team

I follow a blog called "Fund My Mutual Fund." The title should be taken literally: the guy running the blog wants you to pledge money so that he can get a mutual fund based on his stock picking method off the ground. He's done amazingly well on a publicly-tracked simulator, has sufficient pledges to break even, and is in the process of getting SEC approval after establishing a years-long track record. He's good.

He struggles when his method (technical analysis) is battered by external events that cause the stock market to veer from a well-established logical way of doing things, which is happening a lot lately thanks to Ben Bernanke. He responds to these events by publicly reminding himself the underlying fundamentals have changed, that logic means one thing when you're talking about five years and another when you're talking about five days and that even if the market goes up for stupid reasons it's going up. Here's one from this morning. He also lacerates the country's financial honchos in sarcasm-laden posts that get a little tiresome the tenth time you read essentially the same thing. He went to Michigan, too. He might be my Tyler Durden, or maybe I'm his.

A couple weeks ago I proclaimed there was a "zero point zero" percent chance that Brady Hoke was named Michigan's head coach because I assumed Hoke's flimsy resume was only acceptable to people who really truly believe that Michigan Men are Michigan Men who make other Michigan Men, who in turn create more Michigan Men until you enter a warehouse and it's like that terrible Will Smith movie with winged helmets.

My underlying assumption was that David Brandon was a cold-hearted corporatist who would tell someone to assemble a powerpoint about head coaching candidates and take the Michigan Man stuff as merely a relevant bullet point. I was wrong. Brandon is king of the Michigan Men, and my predictive performance has lagged the market.

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Not much of consequence was said at yesterday's press conference to introduce Brady Hoke—that is the way of things—but at the very end Dave Brandon started pointing and became emphatic and the world rearranged itself:

That's the athletic director version of Kurt Wermers saying "not my kind of crowd." Rich Rodriguez never had a chance after the Ohio State game. Why David Brandon decided to go on with a dog and pony show even he admits was pointless should be a frustrating mystery, but it's not. People had to be placated. This program will eat itself alive if given half a chance.

So maybe Brady Hoke is the best choice. This organ transplant will not be rejected. Given time and an upperclass quarterback or two and a defensive staff that's not utterly clueless, Brady Hoke will quickly prove himself to be the one true Notriguez. He'll quickly improve the program and get Michigan back to being Michigan.

But I think the way this went down proves that all the things rivals say about Michigan are true. This is an unbelievably arrogant program convinced its past glories are greater and more recent than they are, certain outsiders have nothing to teach it. We will enter bowl games against opponents that say "boy, that Michigan just lines up and comes after you," and we probably won't win many of them. We never have, and trying to out-execute Alabama or Oregon seems like a tall order these days.

I hoped we could be block-M Michigan without that, that we could have an exciting, modern offense that pumped out Michigan Men and maybe shredded Oklahoma for 48 points in a BCS game. I hoped we could reboot the program, keeping the things we treasure about it but maybe leaving the dismal bowl record and recent inability to compete with Ohio State behind. For a lot of reasons we can't. We are who we are.

So, no, I'm not super happy. On the field I was done with Lloyd Carr, done with punting from the 34 and running the same damn zone stretch thirty times a game, done with the premise that it's only the players who have to execute on gameday. To me, getting back to being Michigan means going 9-3 and losing to Jim Tressel. I remember thinking "this is the year" every year growing up, expecting great things literally every season until Rodriguez showed up and Mallett transferred. I don't think that now, and I can't imagine feeling like that in the future. Sometimes having an identity feels like having a ceiling.

Non-Bullets Of Explanation

Selecting a coach is a lot like selecting a recruit. The resume is the equivalent of a recruiting ranking. With recruits, a high ranking correlates with success, but a correlation is only probability, not certainty. Sometimes high-ranking recruits flame out, and sometimes sleeper recruits turn into stars.

While I'm down on the hire except insofar as it appears to be the only one that would get institutional support, Hoke could surprise people. He's in a great spot to immediately improve a team that returns damn near everyone and should profit from that momentum. Rich Rodriguez was always pushing uphill; Hoke has a much easier path to positive attention.

I didn't want to say this during the many fire-Rodriguez discussions because it seemed like the most cynical thing imaginable, but cutting Rodriguez loose right now sets the new guy up to look like 2006 Ron English after he replaced Jim Herrmann and inherited Woodley/Branch/Hall/Harris: a freaking genius. We'd find out during The Horror that he was not, but for a year the guy was untouchable. Hoke is going to get all the rope left over from the Rodriguez era and then some.

So, yes, the internet has overreacted.

I will swear now. The inbox is overflowing with pleas of varying levels of politeness to get behind Hoke, stop being so negative, etc. If you phrased it nicely, I appreciate the sentiment and the too-generous belief that I have any influence over the success or failure of Michigan's head coach. I'm not going to change my opinion overnight, however, and this remains a No Sugarcoat zone. No sugarcoat. I can promise that I'll go into the Hoke era looking for reasons he'll work out (you know, on-field reasons, not "Brady Hoke is the best human" stuff), if only because of human nature. His flexibility with Nate Davis and successful deployment of Rocky Long as a 3-3-5 DC gives me hope he's not a stick in the mud, and I'm sure Craig Ross is mailing him the Romer paper as we speak.

If you called me a hypocrite for not liking the hire when I didn't like the three years of shit Rich Rodriguez had to wade through when I haven't said one negative thing about Hoke that does not boil down to "does not have a thrilling resume," please fuck off and die. Especially people complaining about how constantly negative I am when I spent the last three years as the last guy on to die on Rodriguez Hill, as a commenter whose name I can't remember aptly put it. Double especially for people complaining like that a week after calling Rodriguez a "hillbilly" because "only hillbillies leave their alma mater."

What I am negative about is the Carr-era players—like the hillbilly guy above—whose loyalty to the program stops at the water's edge. Aside from one recent Harlan Huckleby outburst, the Bo guys either shut their traps or tried in vain to support the head coach at the University of Michigan. But I've made that point over and over again. (Mike "I support the head coach x1000" Hart is an obvious exception to this and should have been the model for his teammates.) The culture that made the last three years happen is petty and arrogant and utterly fails to live up to the Michigan Man ideal it pretends to espouse, and though I'm about a day from shutting up about it because even I'm tired of it I'm not backing off.

This will be fun. I hope everyone loves Jason Whitlock columns, because we're about to get a boatload of them. As Over The Pylonpoints out:

In a panicked desperate move, the administration at BSU freaked out and hired an in house coordinator to quiet the fans and hopefully maintain the momentum that was building. Michigan did much the same, only the “in house” became “Michigan experience” and the “maintain momentum” became “rebuild the program”. In BSU’s case, the failsafe went 6-18. Let’s hope for UM’s, Brady’s and everyone associated with the Wolverines’ sanity that the performance isn’t also duplicated, lest they become the target of one particular columnist with a national audience, a significantly close connection to the head coach, and a nicely sized ax that could always use some grinding.

Carty on the dude. You can hate on Carty if you want but this is probably more interesting than anything that's been written about him so far:

The thing that separated Brady Hoke from most assistant coaches under Lloyd Carr was the confidence to be the same guy in a media interview as he was when the cameras were off. Michigan assistants never talked much in those days, and when they did, most of them were obviously concerned about saying something that would be met with disapproval by their boss.

Hoke wasn't very polished or made-for-television, something he poked fun at himself. He laughed a lot more than the other assistants did, at least in public. When he did do interviews, he asked more questions than most assistants and seemed genuinely interested in how reporters did their jobs. When a sensitive topic came up, he'd simply chuckle and say, "You know I'm not going to talk about that." He didn't shy away from criticizing players or performances when he had to. I don't ever remember him asking to go off the record or take back something he said, both common practices with assistant coaches at Michigan and elsewhere.

Search fiasco: somehow still growing. I still think Jim Harbaugh was supposed to be Michigan's next head coach before he backed out sometime after it became clear the NFL wanted him badly, thus resulting in the month-long post-OSU limbo and panicked search, but seriously if Dave Brandon means what he says about not offering Miles the job he traded the opportunity to not obliterate Michigan's chances with a few key recruits for some PR. If this was going to be the result Hoke should have been hired two seconds after Rodriguez went out the door—there were no serious overtures made towards anyone else except maybe Pat Fitzgerald.

Elsewhere, Or The Best In Overreaction

My verdict on the Hoke hire depends somewhat on my view of the Lloyd Carr era. I liked Carr as a coach and as a representative of the University, but I wasn’t upset when he retired in large part because he had not done a good job of surrounding himself with top-notch coaches. It’s in this respect that he is no Bo. Bo Schembechler created modern Michigan football and one aspect of his greatness was that his coaching tree was excellent. Carr, on the other hand, doesn’t have a coaching tree to speak of. Thus, the two obvious candidates for Michigan’s head coaching position were Jim Harbaugh – a Bo quarterback whom Carr declined to hire when he was looking for a quarterback coach – and Les Miles – a Bo lineman/assistant whom Carr reputedly did not want as his replacement in 2007. If Dave Brandon’s much-discussed Process was designed to bring back a Michigan Man from Bo’s lineage, then that would have been fine because hiring a Bo protege can be done on merit. The fact that the Process produced the one sickly branch from the Carr tree is the reason why Hoke’s hire has been greeted by articles with titles like "Advice for the Despondent."

This team spent the last three years building something, and I spent the last three years not simply waiting for future glory but anticipating it. Times were certainly tough, but I could still see the payoff at the end. The top ten offense paired with what I still believe could have been a fast, havoc wreaking defense with a couple more years of experience and depth--and probably a new coordinator. It wasn't always easy to watch the games, and the losing streaks against rivals always hurt, but I could take the taunts and laughter from other teams fans because I believed. That belief wasn't ever there under Lloyd. It was always just an ominous feeling that the other shoe was about to drop.

Another bit was not happy after the hire, either, focusing mostly on the Les Miles discussion that does not and never will end up being an offer.

You know it‘s a bad decision when one’s first reaction to the news is to draw easy comparisons between Michigan football and the Big 3 Automakers decline and to scramble to the Wikipedia page for the Romanovs to confirm that yes, this moment fits perfectly within the arc of a decaying empire. The emptiness that follows, however, is a bitch.

For its part, Straight Bangin' is "paralyzed." That's probably for the best.

In just over an hour, you've managed to put together a missive that deliberately misses the point of nearly every sentence Brian wrote. It would've taken me days to do that. And as a bonus, your post is written as though entirely ignorant of the large body of Brian's work that gives context to what he wrote today. Apparently you've just arrived here and already managed to rack up 30k-plus points at this insufferable, condescending blog.

I respect your opinion and I think it has merit, but for all the complaints you have about how this site has addressed the coaching situation, the vitriol you have directed at Brian (and by extension anyone who agrees with his sentiment) is just as depressing.

The problem I have had with the past few years has been the knee-jerk response to lump people into "pro" or "anti" something if they voice any displeasure. I hated how people who disagreed with the RR hire were framed as "anti-UM", and I tried my best to not neg or discredit legitimate arguments they made throughout the years. I also disagreed with the sentiment that agreeing with how RR coached the program lumped you into "slappydom", as if an intelligent person couldn't be happy with the offensive progress and still be disappointed with how the defense and special teams were run.

We should be above this, and yet this blog has certainly displayed many of the more unsightly elements of this fanbase's psyche. Carr was a good coach but toward the end definitely trailed off, and no amount of "he won B1G titles in 2004" will change that. RR tried something new, and I definitely think he made numerous missteps along the way, but was also hamstrung by factors not completely under his control. He should have been given another year, but I totally understand why a switch was made. I also think there was a faction of the fanbase that openly wanted him to fail, which is not what I'm sensing with the new hire (no matter how much you may think Brian is leading the charge). I think Hoke is a decent guy with a mediocre coaching record who could be a great leader and definitely wants to be here but, based on past performance, will return UM to the last couple of years under Carr - beat the scrubs, lose to OSU about 1/2 the time (at least until Tressel leaves), have a sub-.500 record against good OOC opponents. I still support Hoke because he is the coach, not that he gives a crap how I feel, but that doesn't mean I'm "sticking my head in the sand" or simply being contrarian because man isn't it fun to speak to power.

Those are my opinions, and I will respect yours even though I don't totally agree. This blog is best when discourse rules, not the finger-in-the-ears dismissiveness you claim some are displaying while you too dig wax from your ear canals.

Boy, this hire sure has united the fanbase! Probably the most important aspect of the hire (other than the obvious getting a good coach part) has not been met. At least not yet. C'mon Hoke, say and do the right things to unite the masses. Its on you now because Brandon sure as hell didn't help you out on that front!

Lloyd had better results because he inherited better players and was able to leverage that to good recruits over his career. Rich Rod had the exact opposite - he inherited a completely bare cupboard and a program that was on the decline and the butt of the conference after losing to a Div II team at home the previous year!! And when Rich Rod got here, he didn't even get to see HIS players get to their JR year. How can you seriously make that comparison.

LC took teams that were consistently stocked with NFL players and underachieved - again and again when the games mattered the most. He pulled great talent DOWN. How do you explain losing to APP STATE, at home no less, with a team that has almost half its players in the NFL right now? If LC had been amenable to change, the kind he finally acquiesced to during the Cap 1 Bowl, he would have gone out a multiple NC winner. That is why people don't like LC< because he turtled when the game was on the line and wouldn't great talent thrive.

Meanwhile, RRod left Michigan in much better shape and turned B Graham into a 1st round pick and an unknown sophomore into a record setting QB in his first year as a starter. We are a young team and the future was looking up with Rich Rod. Now I feel nothing but dread again - just like with LC.

I completely understand Brian's post. I almost feel like Michigan has retreated from trying to be great at football, as long as we can be good consistantly.

What I can't get over is how I could not see this coming.

This is all about pleasing the older-timer alumni and season ticketholders. People on the "blogs" may be numerous, but we don't hold enough coin to be listened to. People have filled Michigan stadium for decades looking for good, not great football. They take pride in "toughness" and duoble tight ends...because we are the manufacturing midwest!! These people (and other alums) are typically older and have more disposable income.

They will love the Hoke hire. I have not talked to one person over 40 who isn't crazed about it and I haven't met anyone under 30 who is actually excited.

Michigan football, more than anything is a business. Hire an old UM football player who runs businesses and this is exactly what you get. We live off of "history" and "nostalgia." Not change, the future or excitement...but safety from the fear of looking horrible even if that means never being great.

I am 23 and I love the hire. How can you say Hoke will keep us from ever being great? He hasn't coached a game yet. When Lloyd Carr was hired would you say he was going to ever keep us from being great because he was never even a HC, or looked at as a long term awnser. Before you say we were always really good before Carr but never great, He won us our only NC since the forward pass was invented, had us in the Big Ten title hunt almost every year including winning quite a few. RR's best season was worse then Carr worse season so I don't wanna hear how we were on our way to winning a bunch of NC. And the he needed to get his guys here argument, I don't wanna hear it. Saban, Meyer, Chizik, Tressel, and Miles won the NC within the first 3 years of taking over.

I think he will be a good coach. I think we will compete and win Big Ten titles. I also think that we won't be winning any National Championships with him.

As for RR, first, he was hindered unlike any of those other hires. Which one of those was thrown to the press by insiders who wanted practic-gate to get out? Which ones had almost zero support from the old regime and/or admin?

Anyway, we could have gone with some one else who had the capacity to win National Championships.

As for your age, maybe there is something to be said for "age being a state of mind." Do you find yourself agreeing with mroe conservative, older folks about politics and such? Or do you consider yourself young and liberal?

As for age I seldom agree with the old timers, I hate the Michigan man meme and was excited when RR was hired. I agree 100% that RR had every thing going against him right out of the gate, but that would have gone away quick if he had been winning. Gene Chizik was met at the airport by Auburn fans telling him they didn't want him and talking shit, I doubt you will find one Auburn fan now who doesn't love him. We all knew the RR transition would take some time, but if he would have brought his system in a little more gradually we could have been 6-6 minimum his first year. I know we were young and he didn't have his type of players, but we still should have won the Toledo, Northwestern and Purdue game that year. Starting 6-6 would have led to alot less turmoil then 3-9 did.

...I did not like 2006. We were similar to MSU this year. A paper tiger. As soon as we faced a really good BIG TEN team, OSU, we lost. Then it turn out that the BIG TEN was below the other conferences (after both OSU and Mich got trounced).

And you realize...good, not great. That is what we were.

(Plus, it set us up for a top 5 ranking and the Appy State overconfidence issue the next year.)

If 2006 is the ceiling of this program, we should just stop sending the team to any bowl games.

You and I are in 100 percent agreement on everything you just said. I am sooooo anti Lloyd Carr. I honestly believe he was behind the submarining of RR and in turn our program for the last 3 years. I used to be a huge LC supporter but not anymore. I cant wait till we get all of those LC cronies out of their postions of power (save Hoke, we need you buddy, and i dont believe he had anything to do with RR, Hoke is a good person and should have been the DC that we hired for RR year 4) so that our program can move forward, and be succesful, and not only set our sights on Rose Bowl wins but National Championship wins

Must be fun on Rodriguez Hill watching that Gator Bowl over and over and pleading for one more year.

I'd love to know why anyone thinks having Lloyd Carr's players love him would have made a difference in RichRod's tenure. It means absolutely nothing. They don't recruit. They don't gameplan. They don't coach. They had nothing to do with that abysmal Gator Bowl.

You honestly think that RR wouldn't have benefited from less pressure? Less pressure created by NCAA allegations that were "guided" to the Freep by insiders? Less pressure by having the vocal support of former players and coach Carr? You don't think that would have allowed Rich Rod to focus better? You don't think that the pressure scared away potential defensive coaches who did not want to get run out of town with RR? Hell, who knows what Carr would say when other coaches reached out to him to find out about Rodriguez.

Also, many people have already mentioned how the visual and vocal support of former players is going to help Hoke keep players on the team and help build up a recruiting buzz.

"Hell, who knows what Carr would say when other coaches reached out to him to find out about Rodriguez."

Ummm. Under what circumstances are potential defensive coaches calling Lloyd Carr to find out if they should work for RichRod? And who are these magical coaching wizards who could turn this squad around with a wave of their wand?

This is a bottom line business. These coaches are paid millions to deal with massive amounts of pressure. RichRod picked his coaches. He recruited the players. He coached the team.

This blog and its unrelenting snark about the 'Lloyd Carr illiuminati' has created a legion of oversensitive emo simpletons.

It was RichRod's job to win football games. He didn't win enough. The fault lies at his feet. He didn't recruit enough defensive playmakers, he didn't guide his defensive staff properly, he didn't prepare his roster to succeed. The end.

So, you only can process Wins and Losses? Everything else is too complicated for you? Or it isn't part of the bottom line?

So, seeing Rich Rod show progress of 3, 5 to 7 wins each year must mean you think he was on the right path. Brandon said it would all be about progress. Well, according to the narrow universe you live in, that is progress.

What are you going to do, look at some factors other than win/loss?

So, are you a hypocrite or do you think Rich Rod made progress over his three years at Michigan?

So we should read nothing into how the former players have rallied around Hoke then? Becuase, hey, they don't help with anything either.

And if Hoke goes 6-7 this year because of massive attritition or injuries, then I'm going to judge him as at least as bad a hire as RR becuase at least RR went 7-6. Context means something, and ignoring what one guy started off with compared to another is a diservice to everyone.

Yes. Don't read anything into former players rallying around the program. It has very little to do with the actual outcome of this hire. Brady Hoke's success will be determined by his actions. His recruiting. His coaching. His gameplans. These things will determine how Michigan fares.

For a blog that seems to place a great deal of importance on empirical thinking, it's users sure spend a tremendous amount of time whinging about things you cannot measure.

Attrition and injuries are things you can measure, so you should absolutely use them to create the 'context' around which Hoke will be judged. On the other hand, debating the merits of 'support' and 'goodwill' and 'former players love' is a fools errand.

And if Hoke goes 6-7 this year because of massive attritition or injuries, then I'm going to judge him as at least as bad a hire as RR becuase at least RR went 7-6. Context means something, and ignoring what one guy started off with compared to another is a diservice to everyone.

wut. So what Hoke is starting off with is better than what Rodriguez started off with is your main point?﻿ Offensively, sure. Defensively, not a chance in the world. It's a wash.

But you're free to say the Rodriguez hire is as bad as the Hoke hire if Hoke goes 3-9 next year.

...Brian has not been saying that RR should have been retained. He has clearly stated that after the bowl game he knew RR had to go. It is fair, however, for him to point out that the same folks who made RR's tenure here more difficult than it needed to be seem to have determined a search process that had a very narrow scope.

Brian, love your blog. I've been following site for quite some time, but just now finally set up an account.

I'm not here to tell you to support Hoke. I don't really care if you do.

The issue at hand for me is your unflappable love for RR. Was the offense improving?... yes, but there were still major problems in last few games. Was the defense improving?... no! Were the special teams improving?...no, except for a few decent returns. I know it's been said many times on this site, but i will be redundant... THERE ARE MORE PHASES TO THE GAME THAN OFFENSE!

I know in your world, that Lloyd Carr is to blame for everything that is wrong... you probably even blame him for Bernanke's quantative easing. With the state of the defense in such bad shape when RR arrived, why wasn't that more aggressively addressed early on in recruiting.... i know, Brian, you'll probably say he didn't have enough time. Why so many small slot receivers instead? Why force a new defense on a coach in the middle of a season? Wouldn't a great coach recognize a defense lacking talent earlier than he did?

You complain about people telling or suggesting to you who you should support or whateverthe....ever. In your love of RR or your dislike of LC, you really don't sound any different!

Define "long time"? As in "me love you long time"? Because that's what I'm thinking. If you'd been reading or following the site for longer than a week, you'd know that Brian had Rodriguez being removed after the bowl game. Honestly, did you just start reading after the Hoke presser?

Brian's been highly critical of a LOT over the last three years. Don't come on here and blow smoke up our ass and say you've been paying attention, because you haven't. There was very little support for Rodriguez out there from before day one. That the offense was this, or the defense was that doesn't take away from the fact that there were factions and our fanbase largely behaved like arrogant, intolerant, impatient bitches.

Now the same non-supporters / detractors from the last 3 years are out there lecturing everyone who doesn't hail Brandon's search and selection as the fairy tonic that's going to cure the last three years, and it's just sickening.

Hoke's a decent guy but we don't even know who his freaking staff is yet, and people like you are out there all panties-in-a-bunch at everyone who's not agreeing with your complete and utter optimism and faith in Brandon.

...of Carr-era players, not Carr. (he leaves it to us to conclude what we will about the connection there) C'mon, hasn't it sucked to be watching the beginning of an NFL game and to have to be worrying about what one of the Carr-era players is going to state as his school? Braylon and his *&^* "Lloyd Carr's Michigan," numerous high schools, etc?

that's some of the best stuff you've ever written. Heartfelt, honest, unflinching - I always appreciate what you have to say. You're calling out of the factions has been spot on and refreshing.

I don't agree with everything anyone says down to the exact letter, but, Brian, you're right far more than you're wrong, you're fairer than most, and because you wear your bias on your sleeve, you feel obligated to back up your arguments with more facts than anyone I know.

everyone think lloyd carr is some nefarious wizard behind the scenes? i dont understand how this was HIS idea. lloyd carr was fired, or let go, from the athletic department by, guess who, david brandon. why are we to assume that 1) david brandon subsequently asked lloyd for coaching advice 2) lloyd suggested hoke and 3) brandon acted purely on that suggestion.

no one knows what actually happened yet at the same time they have concluded, for no reason, that it is lloyd carr's fault . this is absolute insanity! the man hasnt coached a game since january 1, 2008 and he's no longer employed by the university yet he's still the scapegoat for all things wrong with michigan football. unbelievable.

I'm not saying our bowl record was stellar but I don't think we were terrible. We lost to some really good teams.

07: Beat Florida off their national championship year and they would go on to win a national title the following year.
06: Lost a close one to the defending national champs, USC, with 2 Heisman trophy winners on the team.
05: Lost a close one to Nebraska. Uncalled for.
04: Lost to Texas by 1, who went on to win the national title the following year.
03: Lost a close one to USC in rose bowl and a Heisman trophy winner
02: Beat a great, fast Florida team.
01: Lost to a 11-2 Tennessee team that almost played in the national title game if not for being upset by LSU the last game of the year.
00: Beat an NFL loaded Auburn team
99: Beat an NFL loaded Alabama team
98: Beat a good Arkansas team
97: Won national title over Washington state

2007 Rose Bowl we got owned by a 2 loss USC team when we had a ridiculous amount of NFL talent; I was there. 2004 Rose Bowl vs. USC wasn't that close either.

2008 vs. Florida was obv a great win and Lloyd broke out a ton of tricks, and ran a lot of spread style formations, I think partially because it was his last game. But we went 8-4 that year with a lot NFL talent Michigan has seen.

You've got a tough job proving that point-you really need to go a ways back (2002?), to find some clearcut bowl success. Obviously Rich Rod had no success but let's be honest about where this program was at: pretty decent but not a national contender.