I wanted to make a quick post and bring everyone who is interested in this project up to status with the game. I am working on the diceless system first. I have nothing against making the diced system it's just the diceless system is much easier to create because, there are almost no number involved and it links directly to our miniatures game. Not to mention there is little need for extensive play testing with the diceless system to ensure balance in and out of combat. As for where I am with the diceless system I have finished the basic setup, character creation (race, title / job / class, abilities, traits and allocation to miniatures game). Next up is purchasing new skills, abilities, traits and translating the character for miniatures combat. So, not to much work left. Just need to work on what I call "future character features" this is how the character can grow and eventually become a questing knight then eventually a Relic Knight. Just like all the characters in Relic Knights you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

Back to the diced system. I am trying to figure out which would work better a familiar D20 based system that almost every RP gamer knows, or do I go a different route and use something similar to a D6 system that is familiar to almost all miniature wargammers. D6 systems are used in almost all miniature war games such as Dust, Warhammer, Warhammer 40K, Warmachine, Hordes, ect.. ect.. and my provide a easier transition from the war table to the character sheet. Or, I can go a completely different route and offer something completely different such as a percentile based system, D10, D12, or even Tri-stat. So, I ask those of you who are interested in the diced system, which would you prefer?

Also, while I'm in here posting there is another question I have been meaning to ask. In the poll I put options for a Relic Knight RPG. One of which was a No option. This option was put there so I could show SPM the ratio of people wanting to see a RPG because, I expected it to be insanely high compared to the No's. So, my question is if you came to a forum labeled Relic Knights RPG and selected the NO option why? I mean if you don't want it to happen why did you even click the forum title? Was it because you were curious about it? Or was it because you wanted to make sure the project didn't gain to much backing? Or was it because you didn't like where I was going with it and voted it down as a indicator to "hit the drawing board again"? If you clicked No, why?

Thanks for posting guys. I agree that adding another D20 game (Relic Knights D20) to the list of only a billion of them out there might be a bad idea. If the feedback is high enough to make the diced system D20 I will do so. But, I am worried that it will just become another nameless face in a way over saturated gaming system. It will need something to make it really stand out to last two seconds as a D20 game. And, if asked I would be willing to try and make that happen.

I would like to add my two cents to your guys conversation. I feel that game engine / mechanics HEAVILY effect the story line. Take for example the D10 system used by White Wolf in Old World of Darkness. Because the game uses the D10 system there are a lot instances where you think twice about what your going to do in the story or how things are going to effect you because there is a huge room for failure. You usually only stand 3/10 chance of success per die. One of the main arguing points made by those who are anti D10.

In the D20 system there are many ways that the system slows down the plot or changes the storyline because how the mechanics are set up. Sometimes a bad / good roll can completely change the story line and move it in a whole new direction. And often, there are pauses for contested dice rolls, it can eat up a lot of time and make those who have no awesome specific skill sets or combat abilities feel board or unimportant. Example of this is how one of my Pathfinder players has switched classes 4 times because she was tired of not being useful to the party with her character. Finally 4th time she chose a combat heavy Rogue, this way she can have something fun, meaningful and important to add to the party / game.

As for diceless systems I will use Golden Sky Stories as a example. The entire game is storyline, there is no mechanics there to slow down game play or plot, when something happens and you need to interact with it you do. How do you determine success or how do you do things to make your character special? You have a certain number of points called "dreams" that you can meet the threshold to succeed or use a special ability. But, because you are limited to a specific number it makes everyone even and you can spend points on what you feel is truely important. Because, it is point based it does not slow down the game, you simply are told you need skill X to equal three. You spend the points to equal 3 and move on. Because, of the game mechanics being so simple it has a powerful effect to keep all the players engaged in the plot. All characters are aware of the limited number of points so they are more likely to often help assist and everyone is equally important. It is A LOT different than seeing that LVL. 5 fighter / 3 rogue get all the attention because of they are so important in and out of combat with huge damage and a skill set that is often used.

the diceless system is much easier to create because, there are almost no number involved and it links directly to our miniatures game. Not to mention there is little need for extensive play testing with the diceless system to ensure balance in and out of combat.

Back to the diced system. I am trying to figure out which would work better a familiar D20 based system that almost every RP gamer knows, or do I go a different route and use something similar to a D6 system that is familiar to almost all miniature wargammers.

D6 systems are used in almost all miniature war games such as Dust, Warhammer, Warhammer 40K, Warmachine, Hordes, ect.. ect.. and my provide a easier transition from the war table to the character sheet.

Or, I can go a completely different route and offer something completely different such as a percentile based system, D10, D12, or even Tri-stat.

Lots of questions there.

Diceless will require balancing and playtesting. The cards are basically an unbalanced "d3", giving 0 / 1 / 2 Esper points in non-standard ratios. There's also the secondary suit, which gives 0 / 1 Esper in another color. You could look at the deck as a very badly-balanced d7 that gives 0+0 / 0+1 / 1+0 / 1+1 / 2+0 / 2+1 / 2+1 Esper of the colors you want. Playtesting this is actually more complicated, simply because the distribution is very far out of the norm.

D20 following DnD 3.0 OGL for "pure" RPGs, in which players control 1(+1) model.D6 per Warhammer for skirmish battles, in which players control multiple commanders and sub-teams.

BTW, look at Warhammer Mordheim for team vs team battles - it's an excellent team-management RPG disguised as a small battles game.

I would avoid other mechanics as you put the player in the position of learning new mechanics over simply playing a game. The fewer mechanics, and the simpler they are, the better.

@Pride - a lot of the point of such a conversion is to genericize the gameplay, similar to what OGL did for D&D. Use a basic, generic engine, and minimally flavor it for the genre and factions for faster, smoother play.

GrauGeist wrote:

The game engine doesn't affect the storytelling.

My extreme hate for generic "do all" systems is one of the factors in me just designing my own games. No matter what minor flavor you add it usually ends up just not feeling right. That's why a light saber doing d12 damage doesn't feel like star wars, and why D20 Modern doesn't feel like... well, anything (IMHO). And just because a game is specifically made for a setting doesn't mean it can't be simple.

@FireaspectDiceless has to be done very carefully. If, for example, you just use JUST the esper deck for the rpg you might run into situations where the player can't do anything. "There are three corsairs in front of me but I only drew purple, so I guess my turn is done." This is fine in a mini game because that's only one model/unit and it can do other things, but if a player draws a useless hand for two turns he's going to start to hate it.The reason the deck of cards works for Deadlands (besides thematically) is because there are still numbers on them, so someone might fail but they can still attempt.

I haven't played Golden Sky Stories, so I could be wrong, but it sounds like an all or nothing kind of game. The kind of game where I always know if im going to succeed or fail, and even if I fail someone else will just succeed for me. There is a lot of fun you can have in a game when a player fails a roll and you have to keep going. It adds tension to know if I mess something up it could call more guards, or slow me down in a chase, or get another player killed. It doesn't sound like that exists in that game.

Seems to me that an RK RPG would be heavily esper based, with you accumulating and spending esper to perform awesome feats or even enhancing your social interactions, depending on the esper types.

Funny you should mention that: FATE Accelerated Edition uses a set of six Approaches rather than Skills to augment your checks for success or failure; I'd bet you could easily incorporate the six types of esper with the six approaches and have a really interesting setup where your affinity with esper determines how you approach a problem and vice versa.

The 7th Sea system and it's emphasis on over the top dramatic moments would be a good system to use I feel as a skeleton. We played it a lot here recently and a friend took the system and them made a Star Wars version utilizing the system.

The 7th Sea system and it's emphasis on over the top dramatic moments would be a good system to use I feel as a skeleton. We played it a lot here recently and a friend took the system and them made a Star Wars version utilizing the system.

Change Drama Die for Esper Die.

I actually had problems with 7th sea. It felt so forced. When it was easier to ride a chandelier rope to get to a second floor than it was to walk up the stairs, in basically any given situation, mechanically...it just felt weird. Though that system also didn't allow for, really any, flexibility in character creation. That bugs me on a personal preference level. So, overall, i wasn't pleased with 7th sea, and wouldn't want to see much paralleling between that and the theoretical Relic Knight RPG.

It's nice to see there is a new found interest in this again. Why did it go silent before? I got caught up with working on the character creation and the advancement systems. But, I am happy to report that I am ready to start the beta phase (diceless) and have events planned with my gaming group to do so. Once, we work out the kinks (hopefully there are none) I will host a few online sessions to get your guys / girls feedback. If your interested in taking part in the online beta testing and feedback please comment or message me. I want to do extensive testing before I pitch this to the SPM / Ninja Division crew.

Feel free to ask any questions that you may have. I will try to answer them as soon as possible.

I'd be interested in an online session. Since it's diceless, does it use any sort of card mechanic? Perhaps the standard esper deck? I'd love to learn more and give any feedback I can provide. I do love RPGs...

Yep, it uses a point based system and battle / skills use the standard esper deck. This way there is nothing extra to buy and it fits right into the regular Relic Knights game if you wish to add your character. Also, by using a point / esper system it allows "luck" and fairness through out the game, keeping everything balanced.

Thank you for letting me know you would be interested in the online campagin. As soon as I run the beta test with my group and the bugs are worked out I will send you the invite. Note: Online game will still be a few (possibly 3 months) away. If you have any questions or comments please ask.

Just throwing it out there, as I'm an RPer first and a mini gamer second...

Tri-Stat, the final version of BESM that GoO put out before they closed their doors was given out free to the public. It has rules for using various dice and I think it'd be an awesome route to take if you wanted to do a dice based game. I'm certain you can find it somewhere for download but, if not, maybe I can host the PDF for a bit.

Personally though, I'm excited for the resource management system that's inherent in Relic Knights as it is! As with the post a few up from this, I'm very interested in play testing and helping out all I can! I think this system will be SO much better than what Wyrd did with Through The Breach. It's almost as if they copied and pasted sectinos out of Malifaux thinking it'd work just fine for an RP; some things just don't make any sense.

Thanks for finding this old topic. I'm sorry for going silent for so long. The BS in real life has a way of interfering with how much I would like to post and talk here. I will be honest, I have received awesome feedback and suggestions from you guys / girls and I truly appreciate it. Because of the ideas, comments and suggestions I have made what I think is a unique fun way to play Relic Knights. My friends and gaming group of testers (currently 65 group members) enjoy our time taking on our own characters set in the RK universe. With the votes of just as many forum members interested in a awesome RPG setting like Relic Knights I think you would all enjoy it as well.

I will be honest here. I was just recently burnt badly by another gaming company who I found out used my ideas and concepts to make a $500k Kickstarter out of them. Don't worry the game was a deck building card game and not a RPG, so it has nothing to do with this game or the rules that I have written for it. I will apologize now and say I'm sorry if any of my post are vague from here on out because of the caution that the other company has installed into me. I will try to do what I can to get this set of rules for the RPG out to you guys as soon as possible (or SPM / ND release them to us in a beautiful hardback book if we are lucky). Having talked with John and Deke multiple times through e-mail and Facebook in the past, I will try to talk with them to see if there is a interest in pursuing this any farther or if it will just be a game played among us fans.

@TyraeKlouds: If by resource management you mean the game is dependent on you managing your esper as a resource then, yes. This game is much like the miniatures game. It requires players to use esper to give them their advantages and abilities in combat. But, esper has many other functions in and out of battle through out the game that makes it different than most.

Frankly speaking, this discussion has received more views and replies than almost any fan made topic here in the Sodapop Relic Knights forums. Official topics by Sodapop Miniatures crew or moderators have received more but, are usually about business aspects or official rules so I don't count them. Reason I am mentioning this is because even with all this talk and interest in a RPG I'm worried that we maybe just wasting our time. Without any confirmation or even smiley from Sodapop / ND I'm not sure if they would be willing to hear us out. I know that John, Deke and all the others have a lot on their plates with cons, expansions and Kickstarters going so I know it is hard for them to log in here to check topics.

Where I am going with this? After being burnt by the other company I'm just curious as to where this thread is going. What is the next step here? Do we keep talking about this project and building a interest? Do we talk more about the diced system or where I am with that idea? Do we move on to the next part and start talking over how we would like to incorporate organized play? I'm just feeling lost as to what next?

For those who are interested in the diced system and have announced many times over that they wouldn't want it any other way. I will reassure you that I am still working on the diced system and am still trying to put together a diced system that promotes balance. Honestly, I have had no luck finding such a system. I know many of you will argue that statement but, it is just what I have observed. I will write more on the diced system in another future post as I continue looking for one that I would like to use. Many of you have favorite systems that you like to use and I understand that. I just feel that if you have a favorite system you will end up using it anyway in your own games. So, please do not get offended if I do not write the diced system in your favorite.