Momo, there is a post about "karma" on this thread. I suggest you read it.

Paul, how far do you think a conspiracy charge involving his father would have gone? It's more than 2 years already. But we both know how the other feels about this. We need to just be satisfied that we agreed with eachother on another thread about something completely different.

BB, they definitely would have been found "not guilty" but they were guessing (with great legal advice) that this would have blown over & ultimately cost less due to the legal fees & the fact that NJ would have strung this out as long as possible. They were told by counsel that Eric would be able to get licensed in other states (PA & NY), which I disagreed with. But make no mistakes, he has definitely been blacklisted.

Dolfan,

I am not passing judgment one way or the other on the legal merrits of a possible guilt or aquittal of Ledford had his case gone to trial. He cut himself a very good deal under the circumstances.

All I am saying is that even if Ledford were to have gone to trial, been aquitted completely and had every jury member come out on the record and say the charges were a sham, I still believe racing, either officially through the commissions or the tracks individually, either through exclusion or an off the record suggestion, would have made sure Ledford was gone.

I go back to Herve Filion. They dropped the charges related to fixing races. It never went to trial. They got him on taxes only and New York was not going to let him back on the track. It was common knowledge here that the boys in the NYSRWB did not want him no matter what and got word to him that they would deny any application.

Forget giving him the license and then letting Yonkers Raceway or the individual tracks exclude him. They just got word to him that they would cut him off at the NYSRWB. Even after he served his time and he started to drive in Delaware and Pennsylvania and even after some sentiment started to grow for him when Monticello held their Legends Day, no Filion. Its common knowledge here now that they told Filion that he could reapply but they would drag out his application as long as they could and would drag out the hearing to make him relive everything and every suspicion.

Maybe you should come to work with me one day and read through some of the hundreds of civil written decisions that cross my desk where a Judge uses the word "innocent"

I have no idea what you do for a living, but I was talking about the criminal case against the Ledfords. Last I checked there was no civil case. There was a negotiated administrative law settlement regarding their racing licenses.

Have you read any criminal cases coming across your desk where a verdict of "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty" has been returned? What is the legal standard for "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty"? I've never seen it.

Are you familiar with the difference in burden of proof for a criminal case... "beyond a reasonable" doubt" as opposed to a civil case...by the "preponderance of evidence"? Do you know that someone acquitted of criminal charges can still be found liable in a civil case? (Just ask OJ Simpson about that.)

I have no idea what you do for a living, but I was talking about the criminal case against the Ledfords. Last I checked there was no civil case. There was a negotiated administrative law settlement regarding their racing licenses.

Have you read any criminal cases coming across your desk where a verdict of "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty" has been returned? What is the legal standard for "innocent" as opposed to "not guilty"? I've never seen it.

Are you familiar with the difference in burden of proof for a criminal case... "beyond a reasonable" doubt" as opposed to a civil case...by the "preponderance of evidence"? Do you know that someone acquitted of criminal charges can still be found liable in a civil case? (Just ask OJ Simpson about that.)

I am not a lawyer or paralegal but wont get into my job too much otherwise but I have seen the term "innocent" used in Civil Court written rulings, particularly in courts north of Westchester and cases before Arbitrator cases which can be appealed top Civil Court Judges. I have read Administrative Court Judge written decisions where the term "innocent" has been used.

We have seperated "innocent" and "not guilty" as "Not guilty" meaning the case wasnt proven and "Innocent" to be stronger in saying the person/corporation proved they didnt do what they are accused of.

let's not forget that team ledford juiced up many horses that were part of other stables for the purpose of wagering. everyone knows that EL was the man behind the operation and not SL. and you know what, just because bad people are not found criminally guilty in a court of law does not mean they are innocent. team ledford consisted of truly bad people who inflicted untold pain and suffering upon owners, trainers, wagerers etc. the price they are paying can never be paid back. when the public court of justice has more then enough ethical/moral/factual evidence we have the absolute right to punish/persecute these criminals to the fullest extent of our laws. momo

I am not a lawyer or paralegal but wont get into my job too much otherwise but I have seen the term "innocent" used in Civil Court written rulings, particularly in courts north of Westchester and cases before Arbitrator cases which can be appealed top Civil Court Judges. I have read Administrative Court Judge written decisions where the term "innocent" has been used.

We have seperated "innocent" and "not guilty" as "Not guilty" meaning the case wasnt proven and "Innocent" to be stronger in saying the person/corporation proved they didnt do what they are accused of.

Not to belabor the point, but once again, I am talking about criminal cases, not civil, and certainly not matters decided by arbitrators. By the way, a year or two ago The New York Times did a series of articles exposing the corrupt system of local magistrates who act as "judges" in upstate New York, despite their frequently having no legal training, and often a personal agenda that they pursue. They often ruled in ways that did not comply with federal and state laws, and often violated the constitutional rights of those who were unlucky enough to come before them. If you're relying on the rulings produced by that sort of "judge" you're doing yourself a disservice.

Obviously it is possible to essentially be proven "innocent" in very specific circumstances, but there are not three levels of criminal verdicts in the court system. It's not "guilty", "not guilty" or "innocent"...the latter does not exist.

I agree with you on all of your points. (This could only happen while leaving GG out of it! )

Do you think the same will happen with Case when it's his turn?

Dolfan,

I am a long time admitted fan and supporter of Case as a driver. So that said, my answer will come across as biased and tainted. However, that wont stop me from giving it any way.

In my honest opinion, I believe there are vast differences between Eric Ledford and Walter Case. I dont mind giving my opinion on it but I am not looking to turn this into a Ledford vs Case debate but there are differences to me. What I will say though should not at all be taken as me making an excuse for what Case did or justification for it. However:

1) Walter Case's crime had no direct connection to harness racing. You can argue indirect connection if you like but the actual crime itself was not done to harness racing. Eric Ledford's crimes were done directly to harness racing.

2) Walter Case had an unchecked, untreated drug/alcohol problem with what many believe was/is an unchecked, untreated compulsive behavior problem when he committed his crimes. In other words, Case was not sober and of sound mind or body. Ledford was stone cold sober throughout his entire event.

3) Eric Ledford directly cheated the sport, those in it and those who come out to support it. He ultimately took money from people in and around the sport that he wasnt otherwise entitled to or earned. For all the things Case did, he never used illegal drugs on horses and/or fixed races.

4) Yes, Eric Ledford served his criminal sentence but in my opinion, he did not serve any penance in the eyes of the sport. He did not work his way back. He did nothing to try to regain the trust of the sport again. The second he ended his sentence, basicly demanded his license back in New Jersey and wanted to drive at The Meadowlands like nothing happened. Well the people he cheated were those people he now wanted to go back up against. I believe people resented that. Now we dont know what Case will do when he is released but I hope he just doesnt try top kick the door down like Ledford did. I hope he shows humility and works his way back.

I believe the analogy is what Major League Baseball has with gambling and drugs. Using drugs is bad but gambling and cheating is cardinal sin

Most of the horses Ledford were listed on were assigned by the judges as a direct result of the original listed driver opting off in favor of a different horse.

Several owners were surprised when they opened the program and saw Ledford listed to drive their horse. On more than one occasion late driver changes were made replacing Ledford with anyone else. Some of these owners were the very same people that lost purse money as a direct result of the antics of "Team Ledford." How could they be expected to support Ledford?

After complaints from owners about being "gifted" Ledford as a driver, the judges took the position that Ledford would only be listed if a trainer requested him. He would no longer be assigned drives by the judges in the event a trainer failed to list a driver of their choice.

Most of the horses Ledford were listed on were assigned by the judges as a direct result of the original listed driver opting off in favor of a different horse.

Several owners were surprised when they opened the program and saw Ledford listed to drive their horse. On more than one occasion late driver changes were made replacing Ledford with anyone else. Some of these owners were the very same people that lost purse money as a direct result of the antics of "Team Ledford." How could they be expected to support Ledford?

After complaints from owners about being "gifted" Ledford as a driver, the judges took the position that Ledford would only be listed if a trainer requested him. He would no longer be assigned drives by the judges in the event a trainer failed to list a driver of their choice.

I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from. In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me! No way, no how. That's not the way it works. That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.

BuffaloBoy,

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing. We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track. The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve. Case was tossed around as well. I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone. Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances. NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof. But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof. Nothing, no positives. Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up". We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it. Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...

I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from. In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me! No way, no how. That's not the way it works. That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.

You are 100% wrong. That is exactly how it works. If a driver is listed on multiple horses, including yours, and picks a horse other than yours, and either you or your trainer do not call in by scratch/program time to check on the driver choices, a driver is assigned to your horse by either the judges or the race office, depending on the state. In NJ, the judges make the assignment. At the Chicago tracks I believe it is the race office.

If you (owner or trainer) wish to make a driver change after that time, you may do so, but you will be fined.

I have no idea who you are & where you think this kind of info is coming from. In the years that I owned horses in Florida, Chicago & New Jersey, never would a judge "assign" a driver for me! No way, no how. That's not the way it works. That would be totally unacceptable to any owner with 1/2 a brain.

In fact, your argument is so ridiculous, I'm not even going any further.

BuffaloBoy,

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing. We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track. The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve. Case was tossed around as well. I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone. Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances. NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof. But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof. Nothing, no positives. Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up". We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it. Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...

Proof! So you think the Ledfrauds just bought the drugs to have around in case one of them got cancer, had chemotherapy, and needed it to increase the marrow production of RBC's?? I was born at night- not last night. Pork

You are 100% wrong. That is exactly how it works. If a driver is listed on multiple horses, including yours, and picks a horse other than yours, and either you or your trainer do not call in by scratch/program time to check on the driver choices, a driver is assigned to your horse by either the judges or the race office, depending on the state. In NJ, the judges make the assignment. At the Chicago tracks I believe it is the race office.

If you (owner or trainer) wish to make a driver change after that time, you may do so, but you will be fined.

Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick? If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

http://Proof! So you think the Ledfrauds just bought the drugs to have around in case one of them got cancer, had chemotherapy, and needed it to increase the marrow production of RBC's?? I was born at night- not last night. Pork

Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict. Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served. What you or I think doesn't matter. My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything. There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning. So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.

Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick? If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict. Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served. What you or I think doesn't matter. My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything. There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning. So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.

Yes, proof is required for a guilty verdict, but proof does not require direct physical evidence. There are thousands of criminals languishing in jail thanks to convictions based on circumstantial evidence.

Yeah, call me crazy but here in the U.S. proof is required for a guilty verdict. Unless you plead it out which is what Eric Ledford did - plead to conspiracy, fined & suspended for 1 year, which he served. What you or I think doesn't matter. My argument was that should never have pleaded to anything. There were never any positives & the frozen blood has never produced anything worth mentioning. So it doesn't really matter what night you were born.

If you are intelligent enough to write your own name, you know that the only reason a trainer or driver who really is the trainer has drugs like that is to cheat. Done. Over and out. Pork

Of course you have to have someone named by scratch time but are the owner & trainer both sleeping & snoring so loudly that you let the judges pick? If that happens, you deserve to end up with Ted Hagopian.

Never ever ever happened to me that way!

Dolfan;Allow me a little play by play.10:00 AM Done Training. Check the overnight. My listed driver is down on only my horse in the first, and two three others later on. So I feel safe about a driver.10:15 AM I jump on the tractor and head to the field to cut hay.1:00 PM Back for lunch and check for messages. Hello this is Bob Larry at Maywood . It is 10:20 Dale just called in and took himself off all his drives. I need a driver by 11:00 Click.I call at 1:15 and the race office is closed.That is only one of several true life examples.

Dolfan;Allow me a little play by play.10:00 AM Done Training. Check the overnight. My listed driver is down on only my horse in the first, and two three others later on. So I feel safe about a driver.10:15 AM I jump on the tractor and head to the field to cut hay.1:00 PM Back for lunch and check for messages. Hello this is Bob Larry at Maywood . It is 10:20 Dale just called in and took himself off all his drives. I need a driver by 11:00 Click.I call at 1:15 and the race office is closed.That is only one of several true life examples.

Yes, proof is required for a guilty verdict, but proof does not require direct physical evidence. There are thousands of criminals languishing in jail thanks to convictions based on circumstantial evidence.

Read bigapple's post. If you think that the judges were putting Ledford on while NOBODY wanted to use him you are as naive as Barack Obama. And I don't slither. You know Paul, you once called me a nasty name, then a "troublemaker" when I posted about Barn-To-Wire's association with Carmine Fusco. Now you're saying I slither. That's about enough from you!

To Looking In,

Thanks for the real-life example. I just don't know anyone personally who has experienced this. Nor have I ever heard an owner complain of this but maybe they do it differently at PPK.

I will however repeat - I know (first hand) of several trainers being "told" not to use Ledford by Meadowlands track mgt. It would be counter-productive to then seat him on somebody's horse.

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

I'm not comparing Case to Ledford, actually it was more of a comparison of Herve to Case, since Herve's "crimes" were not linked to harness racing. We all know that besides their problems off the track, Herve & Walter were both accused of many wrongdoings on the track. The theory of course, was that NY state among others, were looking for a reason to ban Herve. Case was tossed around as well. I was just wondering what you thought might happen when Case is released - not what you hoped for.

As far as point # 4, everyone on this site believes that The Ledfords "cheated & stole" from everyone. Since I was one of their owners, I guess you'd put me there too however, there was NEVER any proof that any of their horses was given EPO, Aresept or any other illegal substances. NJ claimed that they didn't have a test for that at that time, therefor there is no proof. But blood was drawn & suppossedley frozen, so that when they did have a test (as they do now), there would be proof. Nothing, no positives. Now don't you think that maybe, just maybe Eric doesn't feel that he deserves any more "penance" after agreeing to stay out of the sport where he makes his living for 2 years for something that he didn't do?

BTW, my horses raced well for The Ledfords but they never made any earth-shattering jump ups in class or won so unexpectedly that anyone would even consider them "doped up". We raced in the right class, with good drivers (except the 2 times Ron Marsh drove for us) & we weren't afraid of dropping our horses to the proper level or giving our horses a week or two off if they needed it. Mostly logical stuff - don't push them hard from outside posts,...

Dolfan,

I know I will probably sound contradictory on Herve Filion but from my understanding of the charges against him back then was he was on tape talking about how to fix a race. In my opinion, since the race fixing charges were dropped before trial then that should have been the end of it as far as race fixing is concerned. I believe dropping charges before trial is just a slap in the face to a Prosecutor as to how bad their case is.

HOWEVER, for just even discussing how to fix a race such as he did, I would have had no problem at all with a six month suspension and large fine against Filion. I do not believe the tax charges should be addressed by harness racing.

I want to believe in second chances but in all honesty, had Filion been convicted of the race fixing, I would have to ban him for life.

Going back to their on-track rule breaking. In my opinion with Filion and Case, they paid their fines, served their days and cut their deals. They should have clean slates.

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

In all honesty, I hope he gets treated worse in the future.

Is it possible we can just get you and Dolfan to sit down and settle this feud?

I like your posts and do think you add great stuff here, even though you called me naive

I wanted to say that so you don't feel what I am about to say is trying to pick a fight...as I have enough problems in real life, I dont need more on here...

now...on the particular subject of eric ledford it is my belief that you are not going to get too many of us to express sympathy for him or to feel that he was treated unfairly or anything else. Harness racing does not need this guy, AT ALL.

In all honesty, I hope he gets treated worse in the future.

I know that I have very little support on this subject which is why I usually comment. I was treated so well by The Ledfords that I find it necessary to defend them - even if I stand alone. You're all entitled to your opinions. But I do not accept the word of the police, even though they themselves admitted that there was never any proof that any illegal drugs were used. Proof is a biggie for me as I knew someone in NY who was convicted of a violent crime (raping a minor) that he did not commit. After serving many years in prison, he was exonerated by his accuser, who was then an adult. There was no way of ever recovering those lost years or wiping away the doubt that his friends & family had.

As for me, I've known so many people who have wronged others that I feel forgiveness for the large majority of them when they ask for forgiveness or pay their debt. (I obviously don't feel that Eric Ledford owes anything else to anyone.) If I am "crucified" for feeling this way, then so be it.

To Buffaloboy,

I agree with you on Case & Filion. In Walter's "case", he needs to maintain status in a recovery program to qualify, IMO. Oh and no real feuds with Freelegged. Any opinions are acceptable to me if they are not malicious (NJ Horseman).

To Pork,

Go convict everyone who's accused of anything. You just better hope it doesn't happen to you.

Guilty! No questions asked. Whatever the police says, its true. Lynch him! No proof necessary. We have circumstantial evidence.

Read bigapple's post. If you think that the judges were putting Ledford on while NOBODY wanted to use him you are as naive as Barack Obama. And I don't slither. You know Paul, you once called me a nasty name, then a "troublemaker" when I posted about Barn-To-Wire's association with Carmine Fusco. Now you're saying I slither. That's about enough from you!

To Looking In,

Thanks for the real-life example. I just don't know anyone personally who has experienced this. Nor have I ever heard an owner complain of this but maybe they do it differently at PPK.

I will however repeat - I know (first hand) of several trainers being "told" not to use Ledford by Meadowlands track mgt. It would be counter-productive to then seat him on somebody's horse.

Dolfan:

I read what bigapple said and it is true. You would be very hard pressed to find an honest trainer or owner here who wants anything to do with Ledford, and that is why he wasn't getting drives. I'm sure that from your perch in FL you know a lot more about what is going on in NJ than those of us who are up here.

Apparently you don't understand the law. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable, and being convicted on circumstantial evidence is anything but a lynching.

By the way, I can't recall the Carmine Fusco comment. if you can find it I'll be happy to revisit it.

You have the typical wise-ass dismissive attitude of someone whose opinions simply run counter to the facts.