I'd blathered in the Iron Lore thread about that Black Legion game that they've shelved apparently.

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Crate's new project will be "small-scope," and will launch at a price "significantly below normal retail," Bruno said. It may be exclusively digitally distributed, and by now you may have guessed that there will be no massive marketing campaign for the game. Crate holds no big hope that the unannounced title will have the same kind of sales as Titan Quest.

But while big sales are desirable, Crate's project doesn't need to be a huge hit by any means, Bruno said. "With no publisher and a very small development budget, if we can even capture 10 percent of [Titan Quest's total] sales, we’ll be doing OK." Crate could keep revenue flowing through "frequent expansions and optional content."

I guess that sounds smart enough. To some extent it sounds like what Flagship was going to try to do with Mythos (a Diablo style game, but expanded regularly with MMO-style updates).

To me the main bummer is that a shoestring budget isn't going to support Battle.net-style secured servers, so I imagine that would remain a player complaint and exploits would remain rampant (assuming this Not Titan Quest supports multiplayer still in some form).

Of course, my infamous wrist tendinitis would probably keep me from playing this. Just the mere mention of Titan Quest makes my right wrist cry.

While I'm happy to hear that they're working on a new game, and I'll probably purchase it Day 1, I really, really, really, really hope they don't feel the need for another Typhon-like boss.

I enjoyed the new features of Immortal Throne, but I never got to see any of the new content areas because I couldn't beat Typhon (post-patch).

I actually had one character that beat Typhon, but that was back when you could destroy the four columns and that character was long gone (on an old computer) before I ever got the Immortal Throne expansion.

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Xbox Live: SukaroPSN: Suroka

Until I die I'll sing these songs on the shores of BabylonStill looking for a home in a world where I belong~Switchfoot

Oops, I figured this should go here rather than the "re-visiting Titan Quest/Immortal Throne" thread...

Apparently "Grim Dawn" is the title of Crate's upcoming game. I thought a PC version wasn't confirmed yet, though apparently the Crate guys are researching some alternate distribution routes for the game (given that rampant piracy is blamed, accurately or note, for Titan Quest's disappointing retail sales), including Steam, Impulse, Direct2Drive et al.

I can understand people preferring having a DVD, but if folks believe disc piracy helped kill TQ's sales, I can't really see why the folks there are arguing about it. I also gotta figure that some sort of digital distribution will cut down Grim Dawn's expenses tremendously and presumably put more money directly into Crate's coffers instead of a retail/distribution publisher's.

Those people going off about the Distributor taking 30% need to know that's still a far better deal than most devs get for for regular retail. With box copies a regular dev would never see anywhere remotely near 70% of the sales.

I got an update from the Titanquest.net fan site. Crate is trying this new thing small devs are sometimes doing, which is "early-pre-selling" the game to avid fans as a means to ensure there's enough development money, and in this case to hopefully let them retain ownership of the Grim Dawn IP (rather than sell it to a publisher, and lose most of their independence).

We have received many emails from enthusiastic fans asking if they could donate money to Crate Entertainment and Grim Dawn. After the success our friends at Unknown Worlds have had with pre-orders of their upcoming “Natural Selection 2” (Gamasutra article: Pre-Sales Completely Changed Our Financial Picture), we've decided to follow their lead.

We hope that with your donations, Crate will be able to keep Grim Dawn privately funded, develop more content for the initial release and perhaps even sneak in some of the new features most requested by our fans.

$48.00 * Direct-download the full game upon release * Entry to alpha and beta * Your name in the credits! * TBA in-game accessory * Holy reverence$32.00 * Direct-download the full game upon release * Entry to beta * TBA in-game accessory * Bragging rights

$19.85 * Direct-download the full game upon release * Knowing you made the world a little better

It's a pretty big leap of faith, if you ask me, to chuck your $19.85-$48 ahead of even the game's completion, much less its release. But if you're tired of money-grubbing publishers getting the money while the dev is left with the bag, here's your chance to directly fund a new game.

Apparently Unknown Worlds has been able to generate about $220,000 in player donations. I guess I'd just want some assurance the money was going towards equipment, bills and paychecks rather than say, a 10 pound jar of Gummy Bears....

I don't have a problem with the advance money thing when it's a team that has proven they can make something I like and support it. I've been burned on the advance money thing on another game before though.

I forked out for the Legendary preorder (the $48 one). Considering the current exchange rates between Norwegian Kroner and USD it was cheap anyway, and I loved Titan Quest. I've also got a soft spot in my heart for indie developers, so I wanted to support this. Looking forward to trying the alpha whenever it's ready.

If they had gone the M&B way and wanted 10 bucks, I'd be happy to shell that out - but, those prices are way too crazy for me to even think about it.

Oh? The cheapest preorder is $19.85. That's 105 DKK with our current exchange rates. I bet you spend more on your Saturday dinners.

so true - its not that much, but its still money where I have no guarentee at all I will get anything from my money. I know I WILL get my saturday dinner though ;-)

As a reference, that guy, Derek from Mindtoygames I think it was called, who was making a game and posted a bit over at OO about it - I gave him my money in advance. Now its what -3 years later, and still nothing.

If they had gone the M&B way and wanted 10 bucks, I'd be happy to shell that out - but, those prices are way too crazy for me to even think about it.

You forget, and this is a huge distinction, that Mount & Blade had something that you could play before ever asking for any $. I suppose at first it wss kind of an alpha, but the combat was in there and it was playable and fun even in that state.

This and Derek's Mindtoy games scam are completely different imo. You are buying an idea and nothing else.

Eh, I can some correlations between the two. As noted, the game doesn't even have screenshots at this point and the supposed target date is early 2011. It's *still* potential vaporware, but I agree that there's a much better chance of this one working out. Just don't ever take any of these opportunities as promises of anything but an attempt to develop and release the game.

I'm not sure this has any better chance than Derek's did. This team has put out one game and an expansion and is creating a new one that is similar. Derek had put out multiple games in the same vein as the one he was planning to make. Sure Derek was basically a one man operation minus some farmed out art work, but his games did not require a team to create. If anything I think this one has a bigger chance at failure due to the scope of the game and the fact they have no funding. Bigger game with a large scope with no funding versus a text based simulator with no funding.

These guys have a fully functioning, tried and tested engine though. An engine that has been used for exactly the same type of game before. They are probably able to jump almost immediately to content creation instead of spending months on getting the engine to behave.

These guys have a fully functioning, tried and tested engine though. An engine that has been used for exactly the same type of game before. They are probably able to jump almost immediately to content creation instead of spending months on getting the engine to behave.

Good point I see they are using a modified version of the same engine. Yet, still no screenshots.

How do you calculate this having a higher chance of succes, than anything else? Basically, we have a company which has admitted they need money, and they seem to operate like a true developer house, i.e. costing LOADS of money. And they ask the potential buyers to purchase the game now??

How do you calculate this having a higher chance of succes, than anything else? Basically, we have a company which has admitted they need money, and they seem to operate like a true developer house, i.e. costing LOADS of money. And they ask the potential buyers to purchase the game now??

How are they going to make ANY money? I dont get this scheme...

They are 6 developers who work for cheap. I can't imagine many other big expense posts in their budget. Marketing is probably non-existent and based on word of mouth. It's not an easy way to develop a game, but their pre-orders make it much easier.

I've been in the same situation myself, leading a 4-man development team for an indie game. We never achieved our goal, but we did manage to keep development going for 3 years with minimal amounts of money. Most of our time was spent on engine development. If we could have skipped that and gone straight to content development, reaching our goals would have been relatively easy.

I have faith in this project because they have clear goals, an experienced team (not only with general game development, but with the same engine and the same game genre), a fully working engine and a revenue stream that can let them avoid the problems an investor would cause.

I'd buy in if they showed more progress on the game, just like I did with Natural Selection 2.

That is my biggest problem with it. It just seems shady (for lack of a better term) to be asking for cash at this stage in their development. I don't get the impression that this was their plan all along but has recently been implemented because they have cash flow issues. Do they even have a back up plan? I wish them luck, I liked Titan Quest well enough. I'm just not willing to 'invest' in their project.

They seem to have had only one plan initially: To get an investor. When the pre-order method was suggested to them they realized that they could use this to retain control of the franchise. If pre-orders go well (and they seem to), they won't need an investor at all.

I just looked over their feature list. I not really seeing anything that compels me to preorder anything. Its getting harder and harder to get excited about yet another Diablo clone. I already have a shelf full of them. Granted TQ was one of the better ones, but its going to take a bit of innovation to convince me that I shouldn't just play one of the other few Diablo-likes coming out or wait for Diablo 3.

They seem to have had only one plan initially: To get an investor. When the pre-order method was suggested to them they realized that they could use this to retain control of the franchise. If pre-orders go well (and they seem to), they won't need an investor at all.

Technically speaking, this game *is* their backup plan.From that article, their first plan was completing Black Legion for the 360. That fell through, and now they're working on this.

I hope it works out for them ... and us.

Quote from: Aganazer on January 21, 2010, 06:07:21 PM

I just looked over their feature list. I not really seeing anything that compels me to preorder anything. Its getting harder and harder to get excited about yet another Diablo clone. I already have a shelf full of them. Granted TQ was one of the better ones, but its going to take a bit of innovation to convince me that I shouldn't just play one of the other few Diablo-likes coming out or wait for Diablo 3.

Yeah, the feature list looks a little out there - kind of a "Hey, let's write anything that sounds great for a Diablo clone." Unfortunately, that leads to going over a lot of the same ground. Where it doesn't, I really need to see something in action to see how well it works.

As an aside, I've enjoyed a few Diablo-clones more than I enjoyed D2, namely Torchlight and Titan Quest. I'm sure I'll grab D3 when it comes out, but I don't necessarily think one will be better than the other.

Then again, take everything I say with a grain of salt - I loved Sacred 2, lol.

Don't know if I mentioned earlier -- "Medeirra" is Arthur Bruno, who was lead designer on Titan Quest. "Big name" producer Brian Reynolds was quoted more often in interviews back in TQ's day. I don't know if they'd expect people with more general gaming interests to chip in early. I mentioned it just as a news update, not as their marketing director.

TitanQuest.net has a very large and devoted base of people still playing TQ to death. I imagine most of the regulars there will gladly chip in at some level. Me? Well, since I contracted "Titan Quest Tendinitis" after playing TQ: Immortal Throne too much in 2007, I'm a little averse to Diablo clones. My 40ish year old fingers don't mind crunching MMO hotkeys to death but the wrist-tendon-strain of frantic mouse clicking is maybe a bit much now.

Torchlight was excellent but short-lived for me (I haven't played it in many weeks now).

I'd buy in if they showed more progress on the game, just like I did with Natural Selection 2.

That is my biggest problem with it. It just seems shady (for lack of a better term) to be asking for cash at this stage in their development. I don't get the impression that this was their plan all along but has recently been implemented because they have cash flow issues. Do they even have a back up plan? I wish them luck, I liked Titan Quest well enough. I'm just not willing to 'invest' in their project.

I totally understand your viewpoint, but I don't think "shady" is a proper term, because it implies they are deliberately trying to trick people into something. They are simply asking for a 100% voluntary DONATION to help with their financials based purely on their reputation and past performance. Anyone who participates should be intelligent enough to make the choice on their own whether they feel like donating to this project, and understand what the risk/reward ratio is for them.

What if a group of GTers decided they were going to design a new game with every intention for it to be released in a few years? Would it be "shady" or dishonest of them to ask for donations to help them with some funds at the outset?

I forked out for the Legendary preorder (the $48 one). Considering the current exchange rates between Norwegian Kroner and USD it was cheap anyway, and I loved Titan Quest. I've also got a soft spot in my heart for indie developers, so I wanted to support this. Looking forward to trying the alpha whenever it's ready.

Ditto!!!

Quote from: skystride on January 21, 2010, 09:44:00 PM

There's just too many ifs' with this. Even if they deliver a game, how do we know it will be any good? Good teams often make terrible followups (anyone play Divine Divinity 2?).

Of course we have no idea if it will really be any good, but some times it's worth taking a gamble for a unique cause - and like Tilt, I have a soft spot for these kind of indie developments, particularly in my number one favorite game genre. I would have done the same thing for the Torchlight guys, and essentially I did something similar for Hellgate. At this point I'm just considering the money lost, like I gave it to a friend to do whatever he wants with it. If it turns out I get everything that was promised and the game is good, I'll be thrilled.

I think the key is that they want to add some things that players specifically wanted in TQ but didn't get, including an optional, manual-camera adjustment (in case you don't want to play in a fixed Diablo perspective). I don't get the sense they're going to veer so far off from the TQ mold (DD2 introduced battle towers and all sorts of "innovations" that seemed to turn off the original games' fans in droves) that it's going to alienate those fans. Those are the folks they're counting on.

I don't think this will draw in anyone who didn't like TQ or just dismissed it as Diablo-wannabe. I thought TQ by itself was just OK, but that with Immortal Throne installed, it was a blast, much improved, and had far more interesting quests.

But the one thing TQ needed imho -- and Torchlight for that matter -- was a Battle.net type secure server to play on and Iron Lore said it just wasn't in a financial situation to offer that sort of thing, and I'm pretty sure Grim Dawn won't have it either.

They have an engine they claim, but no screenshots on their website? The whole money before the product is even there thing is...shaky at best - While not exactly shady from their point of view, its definitely not something where your money is put in a safe place.

hmm, sorry - don't mean to be all out offensive , like I think I sound. I just find the whole deal a bit...shaky - yes, thats my word for it - Shaky! :-)

It's a risk, but it's a $20-$48 risk for any individual. Not going to break the bank for most of us if it goes bust. You know how far $48 goes in a gentlemen's club? ... and there's way less promise of payoff.

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It was this moment that took the movie from being a little ho-hum to “holy shit, did that shark just eat a plane!?”

And yes, shaky is the right word. I would also reassert that it's not something I would view as a purchase were I someone on the fence, as much as it is a better use of extra cash than said "gentleman's club."

Shaky sounds good to me too, funny how just one letter makes such a big difference

I really wish these guys the best of luck, and hope we get a good game out of it in the long run. And for the even longer run, would love to see them do well enough to get closed/secure servers. Just out of curiosity, how hard/expensive would it be for some smart folk to set up a dedicated server for something like this - let's say Titan Quest for GT members only as an example.

I suppose if we wanted to set up our own closed "economy", we could do it by honor system and all agree to create characters/games only for use in the economy, maybe name them all with a -GT or something like that.