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Ygirl and I quite often see eye to eye on these things, with two distinct ways of "talking." I find that Ygirl gets to the point in a different way and can be very blunt. She does however, in my experience, get that way out of concern for others and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes she evokes some strong emotions for people, and while they can evoke anger, I believe she does it with a bit of tongue in cheek and as a way to make people look at their shit from an un-sugar coated approach.

Good for you for giving her a good yelling at. I was beginning to think that you didn't have that in you and that you let people walk over you. I'm glad to see that my assumption was wrong Nice to see some strong woman in you, because by all accounts your situation doesn't indicate its in you, just yet.

I am plenty strong enough. I'm known for it.

I didn't feel that YGirl was concerned for me, it just felt as if she was having a go.

As for looking at my shit - yeah, I'm able to do that, known for that as well.

After the drubbing I received earlier, I am now chary of giving any more information.

However, I can say that it has helped to clarify some of my thinking and experience.

I will say this: T has not said to me 'I'm not greedy or needy about your time, energy or attentions.' He has consistently demonstrated it by his behaviour.

Wow, sorry that it felt like a drubbing. I didn't mean to pry. I do hope his circumstances will be conducive to his idyllic-sounding willingness to accommodate your situation.

Because, although most comments focused on your relationship with your husband, I presume that your relationship with T is equally important to you, and has its own internal dynamics which are also significant.

In my own experience, though my secondary and I are both married, she feels under-appreciated by her husband, whereas my wife is very loving and I really have no complaints. Even this minor asymmetry has led to some insecurities, deriving from her wondering, 'Do I need him more than he needs me?' My answer to her is 'no,' but at a distance, it can be easy to misinterpret and imagine otherwise.

It sounds to me like this man did a good job rescuing you. ...snip.... That is lovely and very caring, but might suggest that it is time to take the show on the road and get out of this co-dependency.

Yes, I do love him. Not just because he was able to see in me the potential for healing, but because he is patient and loving and all kinds of other good things.

It's kind of irritating that it's been decided that my relationship is based on co-dependency. I'm not going to get into this here. Suffice to say that, while we do of course have issues (who doesn't), we are not dysfunctional. I can't prove it to you, you'll just have to accept that I know what my relationship is like better than you guys do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

This thread has turned into a concern for your primary relationship...snip... have not taken all the steps to being self actualized.

Don't you see that this is a huge and judgmental assumption on your part?

While I appreciate the concern, I have not felt supported by this concern. To the contrary, I've felt scolded and judged.

If by self actualised you mean:

"the desire for self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for the individual to become actualized in what he is potentially. This tendency might be phrased as the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming"

...then I am the living embodiment if the concept! And L has supported me unstintingly in this journey. Again, I can't prove it, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

Part of that is that you seemingly have no problem with these women thinking they are better than you when it comes to your husband. No one should EVER think they are better than you. I am still concerned by this.

But nowhere have I suggested that I'm happy or okay with these women's behaviour! I agreed with YGirl way back when she first said "it's unacceptable".

I do have a problem with their behaviour, and it is an issue between L and me. Nor am I happy that L doesn't pull them up for it. I have said this several times.

I do not think they are better than I am, in their own right nor in relation to L. I think they're kooky fuck-ups, with unresolved issues, I think they are rude and need to learn some manners. I think they are needy, self absorbed and ridiculously short sighted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

Your husband is right. ...snip... Therefore he may fear that he won't be attracted to you anymore.

This is one of the ongoing conversations that L and I have. It refers not only to his girlfriends, but also to our own private relationship. When I said way back earlier "It's an interesting dynamic and I have given it much thought", this is what I was referring to.

I find it really annoying that you have all apparently decided that I seem to have no insight, no curiosity, no ability to think things through, no emotional intelligence. What do you think we've been doing for 20 years, L and I, if not building, negotiating, developing, evolving, nurturing our relationship??

Perhaps - wow, here's a thought... - perhaps L has some issues around women and his own feelings of adequacy, and I am helping him to resolve those? Perhaps we work together with patience and empathy, maybe? Maybe he's stubborn and finds it hard to shift (oh, y'know, I think I did mention this trait when I was asking for guidance about how to help him to shift towards acceptance of polyamory...) and I'm by nature patient and prepared to work at his pace (oh wow, I think I did mention my patience as well, way back up there somewhere, in that same context).

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

As a self actualized individual I would NEVER let anyone think that it is okay that they treat me the way you describe. ...snip... I'm afraid that they would be pulled aside and quickly put in their place.

Once again, I don't let them think it's okay. They do NOT have any rights over me, of course they don't. Where have I implied that I think that they do?? Please do point this out to me because I really don't know where I gave that impression.

If they behave ill towards me when we are in public, I ignore them. We are in public, and I'm not interested in making them feel shitty. If they behave ill towards me in my own home, I make it clear that I will not engage with them unless and until they behave better. I pull them up, I comment as calmly as I can. I have conversations with them when appropriate. Some, over the years, have become good friends. Some have fallen away but later come to me to apologise. And some continue to behave badly. So they never become friends, and they fall out fo favour with L too, sooner or later.

The issue is more about L's inability or reluctance to put in place appropriate boundaries and maintain them. And, once again I say, for the third time, I am hoping that if we can arrive at an acknowledged position of polyamory, we will be better able to resolve this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

My husband and I have negotiated veto power for such occasions. If there is someone in our lives that the other has a problem with then we reserve the right to ask that they not be a part of our lives. ...snip...We are very practiced with this by now. It takes time. We are used to calling each other on stuff and those that are close to us.

Good for you, I'm glad to know this dynamic can work. And this is exactly why I have come to this forum to ask for guidance and input from experienced people to bring L to a point where he can accept and acknowledge that we are (and I think have for some time been) having a polyamorous relationship. The sooner we can arrive at such a point, the sooner we can openly discuss and negotiate ground rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

I am amazed that you have this dynamic and find it fascinating. ...snip... The difference being that they have an arrangement that is acceptable to both of them, I am unsure that it is acceptable to you.

Um, okay... Weird... There is course a push-pull in our relationship, isn't that true for all relationships? Sometimes / in some areas, I'm in charge, and sometimes / in some areas he's in charge. I never thought of us in D/s terms... I'll give it some thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

It's a shame he won't go to therapy with you...snip... His unwillingness makes me wonder if he is fearful or just doesn't want you to reach your potential because he doesn't dig women that have.

If he was really not into me being well, we'd have finished a long time ago.

I agree, there is an issue about how he likes these kooky chicks and enables them to be rude to me. Yes, this is an issue. No, I don't like it.

And yes, it is an issue we both have to address. I love him enough to want to work through it with him, with us.

I don't know how I can make this any more clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

I wonder if you can take yourself out of the realm of whatever makes your husband such a celebrity and see this for what it is, two human beings trying to make their relationship work.

As I said, he's only a bit famous. It's not a day-in-day-out thing. Most of the time we are normal, standard, run of the mill people. We

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

It makes no difference what he does that makes him acknowledged, as a human right, you are entitled to respect. You deserve it as a fellow human being. If all of you were sitting in my living room right now and as I don't know who your husband is and in what way he is famous, I would expect him to treat you with dignity and respect.

And so he does! Friends and acquaintances often comment on how lovely we are to each other! One of the reasons he's so popular with these kookies is that he is such a great, patient, loving, kind, gentle, thoughtful person. He made me breakfast in bed this morning, he came to the market with me this afternoon and carried the bags. Just now he came upstairs and brought me a cup of tea, he did the washing up after supper..... The other evening when we were entertaining friends he sat on the floor by my feet and kept my wine glass topped up... When we're out he holds the door open for me, if I arrive after he does he always comes to greet me and buy me a drink, he is publicly affectionate, in private he is attentive and loving...My goodness! I have no complaints.

I'm really sorry that I've given any impression to the contrary, that was a disservice to him.

And no, this is not backpeddling. Please show me where I have given the impression that he is disrespectful to me.

The issue - once again - is that he allows his girlfriends to behave disrespectfully to me. No, it's not even that, it's not that he allows them, it's that he doesn't actively step in and actively stop them from doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redpepper

I would hope that you would ask for that and demand that. It's nothing to do with how much you love each other, or what is going on for others around you, it's a right.

I had a thought. As it doesn't seem that he "gets off" on the fact that they disrespect you then perhaps you could be helpful to them too. After all, you have been where they are and can show them, tell them with your own story what can be accomplished in life and how they can gain their own self esteem for themselves rather on the backs of others.

Yes, these chicks have often responded very well to what I am able to offer them. And these are the ones who have gone on to become friends.

The ones who seem to have issues with their own mothers are those who have a problem with me.

Wow, sorry that it felt like a drubbing. I didn't mean to pry. I do hope his circumstances will be conducive to his idyllic-sounding willingness to accommodate your situation.

Because, although most comments focused on your relationship with your husband, I presume that your relationship with T is equally important to you, and has its own internal dynamics which are also significant.

In my own experience, though my secondary and I are both married, she feels under-appreciated by her husband, whereas my wife is very loving and I really have no complaints. Even this minor asymmetry has led to some insecurities, deriving from her wondering, 'Do I need him more than he needs me?' My answer to her is 'no,' but at a distance, it can be easy to misinterpret and imagine otherwise.

Your post didn't feel like a drubbing Marcelo It was earlier input that felt that way. Nor did it feel like prying.

It is certainly an interesting angle, and one that I will consider. Thank you.

Alexandra, like I said in my last post in this thread, you have answered your questions far better than any of us ever could.

But I will hone in on one specific thing. If the ONLY ISSUE is how you are treated by these females in your own home, and if you are as much of a spitfire as you claim to be and have demonstrated that you can be to us, then why don't you just say to them "Hey look, you're in MY HOME. If you can't treat me with the respect and dignity that you would expect to receive in YOUR home, then there's the door. Shape up or ship out." Period. Non-negotiable.

I fail to see why you require your husband to do this FOR you. The only thing I can think of is that he pays all the bills and supports you financially so you don't feel that it is your place to criticize his "guests".

Furthermore, I'd wager that he probably HAS had sex with some of his girlfriends and that is why he wished that you had had an affair instead of trying to be forthcoming with regards to your boyfriend - it would level the playing field, so to speak. But you are right; I couldn't POSSIBLY know that (especially if YOU don't know it). What I do know however, is that some of the most controlling and hypocritical people in history have also been among the most charming and charismatic. So if it seems offensive and improper that I'm suggesting your husband might have a darker side that you're only beginning to uncover, then that is how it will have to seem. If it seems like I'm "having a go" at you, then that too is unfortunate; I can see how it is easier to be pissed at me for giving you my opinion than it is to confront someone you've lived with for so long and have to deal with every day.

You say those girls remind you of yourself when you were their age; well, I'm a few years YOUNGER than you and your CURRENT situation reminds me of myself 15 or 20 years ago or so. Of course I only know you from what you have written here, but go back and look, it is a fair chunk of change, even though I am SURE you have barely even scratched the surface.

Believe me, I have nothing to gain from being "nasty" to you. I am not one of those girls that your husband makes "feel amazing". I wish you would stand up to them (and by extension, to your husband), the way you just stood up to me and the other folks on this forum. If you want to think of me as your enemy just because I gave you my raw anonymous opinion on an internet message forum, that's also your choice to make. You don't owe anyone an explanation, and no one owes you the answers that you want to hear.

Have a good life.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 11-30-2009 at 12:06 AM.
Reason: I keep adding to this and I'm gonna force myself to stop now.

Thank you for your long reply and for breaking down everything I said in order to explain. I understand where you are coming from more now and think I understand. I understand also that you wanted to know about adding T to your life, not what this thread became. For that I am sorry and if you desire to get back on track with that, I will respectfully leave the topic alone as I sense that you have had enough of it.

It seems to me that you think that everything is under control with L except for these women he chooses to be girlfriends with. I go back to my earlier post and say the same thing.... if you start sleeping with T then he will want the same thing and I suspect that the whole "thing" that you dislike about his relationship with these woman will be exacerbated. It seems that needs working on first in my opinion.

Thanks again for explaining so much. I'm sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but I hope some of it challenged you enough to think about it all as it seems a lot of us were concerned or we wouldn't of bothered writing at all.

Good luck, I hope it all goes well and you reach your desired out come in harming none and helping all.

Hm, this thread got weird. I'm not sure why; lots of people post here with what sound to me like much more... challenging situations than this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper

I feel no remorse or guilt at all, but I do feel the pain that L is experiencing, and I hate that I am causing him pain.

Well, T does have an agenda -- a romantic relationship with you.

I don't see how honour has anything to do with it, and I don't know why you would feel remorseful or guilty. I'd go so far as to say that you're not really "causing L pain". He's experiencing jealousy as a response to the situation that the three of you find yourselves in, but it isn't as if your falling in love with an old flame was a plot to make him feel bad, or that you have some sort of absolute control over his emotions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra

L either can't or won't talk about it. It's become the elephant in the room.

How can I negotiate this, how can I make it easier for L?

I assume that L is acting the way he is because he feels that his relationship with you is threatened and he wants the situation to go away. I think that the key insight here for L is that his behaviour right now is damaging your relationship in a way that's worse than the consequences of your being with T would (likely) be. You have this important thing in your life that's confusing and exciting, and your husband should be your best ally in helping you figure out what's going to work well for all of you. Instead he's doing things that create distance (and likely resentment).

There are a lot of poly- resources out there on coping with jealousy, but you can't do it for him. But it may help inspire him to do the work if the goal is a better relationship with you, as opposed to the goal being his being okay with your relationhip with T.