00081 I have a cuple of fluted barrels from bolt actions that I may try to use. I dont think there are any accuracy gains from fluting a barrel..Possably it might not get as hat as fast and walk less but Im sceptical. weight saving and looks are thae main reason people go that route. ill likely go with a AMD lengt or standard pistion . i dont see any advantages to going with a short pistion unless the GB location some worked as barrel tunner in certain area. (hmmm may build it with no port and slide the gb up and down testing it with out gas )

I started a thread oin doing a swithc barrel buld a year or so ago. Its on hold untill I get caught up with a few things around here. I have about a dozen caliburs in mind. and the barrels in hand. I got a m70 trunion bored out to take a thread that is avaliable in a common tap size. and it kind of ended there.

12-08-2011, 07:02 PM

1biggun

00082 FROM KRIEGER WEB SITE.

Q: How does fluting a barrel help?

A: Fluting reduces weight while increasing rigidity (over an unfluted barrel of the same weight, ie: smaller contour) and changing barrel vibration and whip. By exposing more exterior surface area, it also aids in cooling your barrel. On the barrel contours that we will flute, we expect the same practical accuracy out of a fluted barrel vs. an un-fluted barrel as long as it is fluted by us. A note on fluting done by others: We have researched and performed fluting using many different methods over the years and have really perfected the system we use. Like any other outside operations performed on our barrels, we will not be responsible for the results of other methods of fluting performed by gunsmiths/machinists other than Krieger Barrels, Inc.

NOTE THEY SAY OVER A NON FLUTED BARREL OF THE SAME WEIGHT NOT THE SAME PROFILE. IN OTHER WORDS YOU CAN HAVE A 5 POUND FLUTTED BARREL THAT IS STIFFER THAN A 5 POUND SAME WEIGHT BUT SMALLER PROFILE BARREL. TO ME THAT MEANS IF YOU GO WITH A FULL BULL BARREL IT WILL BE STIFFER THAN THE SAME BARREL AFTER ITS FLUTTED . IM OPEN TO PROOF OTHER WISE. SOME WERE A BARREL MANUFACTUR SHOWS THE AMOUNT OF FLEX OF TWO BARREL UNDER A LOAD. IM TRYING TIO FIND IT.

VOLQUARTSEN SAYS HE SEES A IMPROVMENT. IMOO THAT MAY DUE TO BTTER HARMONMICS BUT NOT DUE TO ACTUAL STIFFNESS.

IMOO ITS THE HOW REPEATABLE AND CONSISTANT THE HARMONICS ARE THAT MAKE THE DIFFERANCE. IF YPOU GOT CRAP AMMO A STIFFER BARREL SHOULD PRODUCE BETTER ACCURACY AS THE BARREL WILL MOVE LESS AND VARIATIONS IN THE AMMO WILL NOT CATCH THE BARREL AT AS MUCH OF A VARIANCE. THE BETTER TTHE AMMO THE MORE CONSISTANT THE HARMONICS THE LESS THE BARREL WEIGHT SHOULD MATTER. AS LONG AT THE BULLET LEAVES THE BARREL AT THE SAME PLACE INTHE BARREL MOVEMENT IT WILL HIT THE SAME PLACE. OF COURSE AI COULD BE COMPLETLY WRONG I BARRELY PASSSED HIGH SCHOOL AND CANT SPELL OR FIND THE CAP LOCK BUTTION. LOL :)

12-09-2011, 08:17 AM

1biggun

00083 the cooling is were the fluting helps. The more surface area the faster it can cool off.

12-09-2011, 04:21 PM

Clarence Davidson

To jump back into this discussion. I'm immediately wanting to build a basic AK rifle for my daughter to be done as precisely as possible. After all, she's my daughter and she deserves the best. I'd like to have the bolt lugs lapped and the bolt face squared with the receiver, just as would be done on a match rifle, before having key parts nickel boron plated. I'd expect the rifle to do two inches or under at 100 yards using Lapua or other quality ammo.

As for a heavy barrel, a standard AK could be built using a Bulgarian rear sight block with a .730 diameter barrel hole. this would allow a barrel of nearly three quarters of an inch in diameter to be installed. Custom gas blocks and front sight blocks would be needed for a barrel that big. I like the idea of a custom gas block that is adjustable, which could be set to allow just enough gas to flow to function the action, but not slam everything around real hard. A front sight could be done away with on a rifle to be used with scope only. Right now, I'm thinking a TWS dog leg top cover and rail would provide an adequate base for a scope and still allow precision shooting. The TWS accepts a rear peep sight. If the precision AK had the front sight, even a custom one, and the TWS peep, accurate shooting could be done without a scope, if desired. The TWS wasn't available when this thread started, but it is proving itself a precision bit of equipment.

A free floated barrel like the one on the PSL linked to above should be a part of a precision AK. I have read cryptic references on-line to short gas systems being better for accuracy. The 1000-yard AK built by Red Jacket for the Sons of Guns show used a short Galil gas system, as I recall. I believe an experimental 6.5 Grendel AK built by Krebs also uses a short gas system. I'd like to know more about any possible advantages of a short gas system. Also, I've read a couple of remarks saying that recoil spring guides made of telescoping tubing, rather than the bent wire of the standard AK are better for accuracy than the common wire item. My knowledge of AK variants isn't great enough. I am unaware of any that use telescoping tubs as spring guides. Are there any?

12-10-2011, 11:55 AM

1biggun

00084 HMMMM I can tell you this for fact. I shot my gun over a 1000 rounds with no gas system or GB, it shot no differant than when I added a very heavy custom gas block and added gas. In fact my best group ever ( under 1/2" 5 shots at 100) was done with the gas syystem installed and working. look at the slow motion pictures the bullet is out of the barrel before the action does anything i dont think anything as far as recoil springs , buffers, ect will make a differance. My guns barrel is over 1" after it leaves the trunion. and its a heavy barrel profile exactly how it savage made it after that. ( I did straighten it out were the GB rides).

an adjustable GB is not a good thing for accuracy as the hole has to be oversize and larger than needed to allow it to be adjustable. my advice begin by using the lightest loads you plan to shoot and get it to cycle. thats what I did I then went about .005 larger to give it a a bit more reliabilty to extract from a dirty chamber as well as handel steel cases for when i want to shoot cheap. for a true accuracy build you only want as much port as needed to cycle the ammo you will be shooting. If you plan on shooting light loads and heavy loads and all kinds in between and then go subsoink a adjustable GB is for you but it will not likely be as accurate as a minimual port. that hole in the barrel is a imperfection in the bore it will never help accuracy so keep it to the minum. how much it hurts I dont know on my build my .080 or so hole showed no change in accuracy. again im not a bench rest shooter so maybe i could have shown a differance if I was a better shot. ALSO KEEP THE PORT IN THE GROOVE NOT IN THE RIFLEING.

My barrel does free float the only thing touching the barrel is the gas piston that is very loose in the threads the gas tube exerts no pressure on the GB. The RSB is pressed tight to the trunion an was also lapped to reduce any side stresses between ther two parts.

A short gas system might be OK but Im not sure you will gain anything it might help balance the gun out some. as i mentioned before I saw no differance with out a gas system or with. the bullet is out of the barrel before the pistion moves the action.

annything that touches the barrel and its placement will affect accuracy either - or +. So it is possable that moving the GB back or forth will affect change things + or - as it weill affet the harmonics. a barrel tunner works the same way. Id be willing to bet if you could move the GB up and down the barrel you would find a sweet spot over other locations.

I get a little concerend when guys are running such a short pistion with a very long barrel. I cant prove when the the port timing becomes unsafe and would aid in premiture unlock of the action. I suspect that going to short can be unsafe. Wills 308 Saiga conversion does use a a galil pistion and it got a long barrel and shooting high pressure rounds and it didnt blow up so how short is to short i dont know? If it helps accuracy I dont know.

why would the original designers use a long pistion costing more to make and adding weight if it was not needed???? I DONT KNOW, BUT THEY DID. AND THE PISTION IS EVEN LONGER ON THE 7.62X54 VARAINTS AGAIN WHY THE GUN IS ALREADY NOSE HEAVY. ID ASK THE DESIGNER IF I COULD

IMOO any scope rail that touches any part of the reciver or anchors in the rear trunion is going to be a detriment to accuray perticualry on a stamped reciver. Ill stick by my hundreds of proven groups as proof. I havent seen any AK out shoot mine at 100 yards with a scope mount touching the reciver untill that happens Im going to say you need to get the raill away from rhe reciver.

I reliaze that is not a option for many builds. so I then say go with one that is not a side mount and keep it as low to the barrel as possable and make sure its tight fitting and cant move.
some day im going to put a side rail and a canterlever type mount on a build and do back to back tests. any one want to donate a side mount for testing???

no disrespect to Will as Red Dacket but I havent seent the gun prove its accuracy at 1000 yards. or any range. He may have done more since he posted here back when the show came out on other forums. Id love to hear more about what got out of that build. The barrel should be capiable. he does post here from time to time. IMOO the Scope mount is going to be a limiting factor.

I would have went with my own style mount regardless of what was avalaible at the time. i have continuned to use the the same set up on several guns and they all shoot better than any thing I have done with a other system. why change what works??

Quote:

I'd expect the rifle to do two inches or under at 100 yards using Lapua or other quality ammo.

almost any AK with a good barrel will do that as is with optics and a mount like mine and a trigger job and of course the ammo. I havent shot any factory Lapua ammo so I cant say how good it is. i dont have a build that wont do under 2" with a good barrel with hand loads . (my loads are nothing special)

the goals you are setting are well with in reach. I would thing theey are doable wioth the mount you decribe. at 100 yards. . you likely would noot need to do any thing to the bolt if its not realy out of wack. truing a bolt will not due much if the chamber has
.010" of side clearance and a mile of free bore. Set the head space as tight as you can and if your going to shoot one ammo brand set it to be optimum to that brand.

I have done several AMD 65,s as pistols with a scope mount litteraly welded to the gas tube and have shot around 1" with them. there was no bolt truing, not headspace changes, just a trigger job and hand loads. so you goal is very reachable.

Quote:

Also, I've read a couple of remarks saying that recoil spring guides made of telescoping tubing, rather than the bent wire of the standard AK are better for accuracy than the common wire item. My knowledge of AK variants isn't great enough. I am unaware of any that use telescoping tubs as spring guides. Are there any?

NO CLUE AS TO WHAT THAT WOULD BE. KEEP IN MIND THAT MANY WHO POST ON THE NET HAVE NEVER ACTUALY DONE ANY THING THEY CLAIM THEY WILL POST IDEAS AS IF THEY HAVE DONE IT AND LIKELY CANT EVEN OPEN A AMMO CASE WITH OUT HELP. IF YOU HAVE A LINK TO THOSE POSTS THAT WOULD BE GREAT. i USED TO POST ON THE AK FORUM AND SOME OF THE REPLYS AND IDEAS OVER THERE WERE VERY OFF THE WALL.

There have been a few heavy barrel AK built since mine some with really heavy barrels. however the barrels are useualy from a machine gun or somehting and likely were not supper accurate to begin with. also turning down a heavy barrel blank can cause stress in the barrel and cause other issues also. Just because you put on a 2" OD barrel on a AK dont mean you will gain any thing. The bore and the amount of internal stress are what matters. takig a heavy barrel and turning it down to 23mm will cause a lot to happen to the barrel if your not really carfull and go slow. Id chamber the barrel after the profile has been cut as the ID w ill likely change if you dont work very slow.

IF YOU HAVE A BARRELESS KIT ID START WITH A GOOD QUALITY BLANK AND HAVE IT MADE. DONT USE A $50 MADE INT HE USA SPECIAL YOU DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. IF YOUR DOING A 7.62X39 LOOK AT THE PAC-NOR BLANK. IF YOUR DOING 223 THEN THERE ARE LOTS OF CHOICES.

SORRY FOR THE CAPS AND SUCH IM IN A HURRY.

12-10-2011, 12:15 PM

1biggun

00085 HEY THANKS FOR THIS LINK. BEAUTIFUL BUILD TO BAD ITS NOT VERYY ACCURATE YET.

The AK Files Forums - Heavy Bull barrel PSL project

might be the whole turning down a heavy machne gun barrel issue. the barrel just might not be accurate. i was going to get one of those barrels for a mosin build. but decided it might not shoot good. have heard that mosins with those barrels do well. or there owners aere afraid to admit they dont LOL.

I loved his wood work Id lke a set for my builds. I loke how he floated the foreend with side supports. mine the suppoert is under the reciver.

That same build could be done on a AK kit for not a lot of monnyey and if the barrel was good would shoot verry well.

again thanks for the link.

12-10-2011, 01:56 PM

AZAKMS

1biggun,
As far as the best way to mount a scope to an AK. I still think that the old mount of the Super Vepr (quick detach rail on the top of the gun) is better then a standard scope mount because it's anchored to both sides of the rifle with machined rails welded to the receiver and it's also anchored to the rear sight base/barrel trunnion (not like a standard AK rear sight base that extends quite as far over the barrel). I like the mount because it's anchored at 5 points, the mount is centered over the bore, and the mount is lower then any other AK mount I've ever seen.
Any AK scope mounted off of the side rail is going to have flex and play to it due to the side of the receiver being a large spring. The AK receiver flexes as it shoots, especially the 1mm type. The thicker receiver has less flex, but still has movement due to the side rail being riveted to the floating sheet metal surface of the side of the receiver with one rivet being shared with the rear trunnion on most installs.
The mount usually is made of aluminum or another light weight metal and is held in place by pressure applied to the rail by compressing the dovetail mount on the scope rail. The scope mount then has to float around the side of the receiver and dust cover to come over the top of the rifle. Even on a milled AK, this does not create an ideal mount. If you try to move the mount back and forth when it is on the rifle, it's going to have quite a bit of play (using a side rail mount with rings and a standard scope). Some of this can be addressed by using a low profile steel mount but it's still going to have to extend over the side of the gun to be on top of the receiver cover. The PSO and POSP scopes are better, but still not ideal and you're restricted to the lower power Russian scopes. The SVD mount (smaller then the AK type mount) going onto the NDM-86 rail machined into the side of a milled receiver is pretty darn rigid but still not ideal in my opinion.
Again, the old version of the Super Vepr mount being anchored off of two welded lugs in the back that are very close to the top rail gives the mount superior rigidity in the rear. Up front, the mount engages both sides of the rear sight base and has a cam lock on the top for 5 points of contact.
I'm using very low profile Molot 30mm rings and I have no play in a massive scope that's 16" long without sun shade and close to 20" with sun shade.

12-10-2011, 04:03 PM

1biggun

00086

Quote:

As far as the best way to mount a scope to an AK. I still think that the old mount of the Super Vepr (quick detach rail on the top of the gun)

got any close up picks of one?? any thing is beter than the side mount set up. when you can the but sock in the foregrip in sperate hands and litterly twist the reciver, that is the last place i want any of my mount touching. if you cant do a canterlever type mount then your sort of stuck. using a mount that braces up the reiver is a better option than a side mount that. the dust cover mounts are ppoint less for much unless you working in close quarters and are not trying to shoot with real accuracy they will n ot hold there point of aim.

if it flexes when handled, fired, lifted or set on the ground then its not going to hold zero.

if you have to have it on the rciver then it needs to be as stiff and mounted in a way that reciver flex will affect it as little as possable. the Super Veper is a much thicker reciver than most AK,s so they will work better.

Its a shame no country has made a RSB designed to take the scope avaliablke on any of the kits whe get. there is a south american version made that uses a canterlever mount very much like what I build. (stole my idea LOL)

12-11-2011, 12:54 PM

1biggun

00087

Quote:

. I'm even thinking that with some work, of course, 7.62X39 brass could be swagged to .22 caliber, neck reamed etc. and there'd be reloadable cases for the rifle.

ITS ALREADY OUT THERE ITS CALLED THE 220 RUSSIAN AND IT WAS DESIGNED FOR RUSSAIN TARGET RIFLES. THE 220 RUSSAIN IS THE PARTENT ROUND OF 22 AN 6MM ppc. THEY ARE ARGUABLE THE MOST ACCURATE AMMO ON THE PLANET.

I MADE A TOOL TO INDEX THE RIFLEING SO i CAN LOCATE THE PORT. THERE IS A THREAD HERE SOME WERE ON IT.

ID PASS ON THE IDEA OF USING 5.45X39 CASES AND THEN LOADING THEM WITH 5.56 BULLETS WAY TO MUCH WORK NOT GOOD BRASS IN THAT CAL AND IF THERE IS BRASS ITS TO COSTLY. IF YOU WANT A 5.56 THEN BUILD A 223 AND BE DONE WITH IT CHEAP BRASS VERY DOABLE ON A AK THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS TO GO. 2 220 RUSSAIN CAN BE DONE AND CASES CAN BE MADE FORM 7.62X39 NECKED DOWN BUT A 223 IS EASY AND ITS ALSO ONE OF THE MOST DEVELOPED ROUNDS IN THE WORLD THERE ARE HNDREDS OF PROVEN LOADS .

ILL POST MORE WHEN I CAN OR PM ME. GOT TO RUN

12-11-2011, 01:32 PM

Coils

Quote:

Also, I've read a couple of remarks saying that recoil spring guides made of telescoping tubing, rather than the bent wire of the standard AK are better for accuracy than the common wire item.

That's total BS, the recoil spring assembly has nothing to do with the accuracy of these rifles.
And yes there is a telescoping rod style, it was mainly used in the RPKs.