The Strange Death of Europe - Douglas K Murry

It’s worth taking on a couple of arguments going on here. First, the idea that liberalism is a preserve of the elites; but look at the type of person spearheading the counter-argument. Murray is an old Etonian, while the major Vote Leave politicians - people like Douglas Carswell, Farage, Hannan - were all blessed with a private education. Contrary to popular opinion, the racism which lead to European Fascism in the early 20th century was spearheaded by intellectual intelligentsia who endorsed phrenology, eugenics and in Germany a distorted view of an ancient Indian belief in Aryanism.

Today, the intellectual basis for Islamophobia is spearheaded by the alt-right, which is funded by millionaire’s like the Regnery’s and supported by billionaires like Robert Mercer. It’s been legitimised by another billionaire, Trump, making his way to the White House on the back of often falsified, incendiary racist remarks.

But regardless of the top down way in which racism Myers our society, it feels like we still need to win arguments like the one made in the opening post. Is there an issue with some Islamic attitudes towards women? Yes. But before we become too culturally proud, let’s not forget that we only stopped burning witches around 7 generations ago, and we legalised homosexuality around 100 years after the Islamic Ottoman Empire did. Why does this matter? As it shows that societies and cultures, just like ours, can drastically change their perceptions and values.

If we believe in our culture, we should be strong enough to believe that integration within it will allow these communities to see the light. Many Jamaicans who came over in the 50s and 60s had similar misogyny issues, yet today we have several success stories of Caribbean women in our society.

If we believe these communities instead to be intransigent and beyond redemption, we are allowing millions of the poorest and most needy asylum seekers in the world to die or suffer, most of whom are in fact proud people whose values will probably be very close to have ours. The thing that makes me laugh is when these arguments are framed in a Christian vs Islam context. What do people who believe in this think the parable of the Good Samaritan tells us? What do they think Jesus would do in today’s world? What would they make of the fact that Jesus, as a Palestinian, would hav today been born in to almost certain refugee status, in need of the help and benevolence of us in more fortunate countries?

Edited by serial thriller (04 Dec 2017 11.15pm)

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

It’s worth taking on a couple of arguments going on here. First, the idea that liberalism is a preserve of the elites; but look at the type of person spearheading the counter-argument. Murray is an old Etonian, while the major Vote Leave politicians - people like Douglas Carswell, Farage, Hannan - were all blessed with a private education. Contrary to popular opinion, the racism which lead to European Fascism in the early 20th century was spearheaded by intellectual intelligentsia who endorsed phrenology, eugenics and in Germany a distorted view of an ancient Indian belief in Aryanism.

Today, the intellectual basis for Islamophobia is spearheaded by the alt-right, which is funded by millionaire’s like the Regnery’s and supported by billionaires like Robert Mercer. It’s been legitimised by another billionaire, Trump, making his way to the White House on the back of often falsified, incendiary racist remarks.

But regardless of the top down way in which racism Myers our society, it feels like we still need to win arguments like the one made in the opening post. Is there an issue with some Islamic attitudes towards women? Yes. But before we become too culturally proud, let’s not forget that we only stopped burning witches around 7 generations ago, and we legalised homosexuality around 100 years after the Islamic Ottoman Empire did. Why does this matter? As it shows that societies and cultures, just like ours, can drastically change their perceptions and values.

If we believe in our culture, we should be strong enough to believe that integration within it will allow these communities to see the light. Many Jamaicans who came over in the 50s and 60s had similar misogyny issues, yet today we have several success stories of Caribbean women in our society.

If we believe these communities instead to be intransigent and beyond redemption, we are allowing millions of the poorest and most needy asylum seekers in the world to die or suffer, most of whom are in fact proud people whose values will probably be very close to have ours. The thing that makes me laugh is when these arguments are framed in a Christian vs Islam context. What do people who believe in this think the parable of the Good Samaritan tells us? What do they think Jesus would do in today’s world? What would they make of the fact that Jesus, as a Palestinian, would hav today been born in to almost certain refugee status, in need of the help and benevolence of us in more fortunate countries?

Edited by serial thriller (04 Dec 2017 11.15pm)

A few counter arguments but first, thanks for acknowledging the intellectual anti-migration angle. Are they not just clever racists though?

I'm not really sure who you're suggesting needs to change when it doesn't appear to be the recent visitors as yet. Post WWII migration was a great success but there is still the 'cultural' defense applied to criticism and I'm not sure your example of successful women is proof of any major shift, when British misogynism was still pretty rife at the time. A different issue altogether, when the focus in on extremism, but are you absolutely sure there is an obligation to assimilate when many on the left put freedom to express ones religious beliefs over anything else? Thankfully I'm satisfied that this is not the case from a legal perspective and such people are not presiding over the courts.

And the humanitarian implications don't seem to have much impact on Germany's recent payments for migrants to leave. Presumably those who can return somewhere safer than Syria will be accepting the offer, which only really highlights those who weren't fleeing any major hardship. I await the figures of the uptake.

"Naked racism may still be unacceptable in polite society. But post-Brexit vote there’s a clear market emerging for a slightly posher, better-read, more respectable way of saying that you’d rather not live next door to Romanians or think Muslims are coming to rape your womenfolk. Think Daily Mail columnist Katie Hopkins, but with longer words, and for people who wouldn’t be seen dead on an English Defence League march – although one of the more ridiculous contentions in this book by the journalist Douglas Murray is that the EDL are actually terribly misunderstood chaps, who have a point, and aren’t really to blame for the way their rallies regularly end in violence."

Clearly Mr Murray is a true sage of our times for (naturally) all objective, unbiased and unprejudiced readers

and that your honour concludes the evidence of the prosecution against the lefty sympathisers who cry islamaphobia and rascim at every opportunity.

No it doesn't.

It shows that the right keep dragging up the rape gang stuff which means that my mate Mo who runs the papershop has to endure a love hate relationship with his increasingly racist clientele.However heinous the crime, to use it to stoke and perpetuate islamaphobia is plainly wrong.

I still contend from personal experience anyone who accuses an opponent of calling them racist tends to be one. Whether they consciously realise they are or not is an interesting debate.

It shows that the right keep dragging up the rape gang stuff which means that my mate Mo who runs the papershop has to endure a love hate relationship with his increasingly racist clientele.However heinous the crime, to use it to stoke and perpetuate islamaphobia is plainly wrong.

I still contend from personal experience anyone who accuses an opponent of calling them racist tends to be one. Whether they consciously realise they are or not is an interesting debate.

It shows that the right keep dragging up the rape gang stuff which means that my mate Mo who runs the papershop has to endure a love hate relationship with his increasingly racist clientele.However heinous the crime, to use it to stoke and perpetuate islamaphobia is plainly wrong.

I still contend from personal experience anyone who accuses an opponent of calling them racist tends to be one. Whether they consciously realise they are or not is an interesting debate.

haha unbelievable "dragging up the rape gang stuff" yeah lets just sweep it under the carpet for fear of upsetting people and not tackling the under lying issues? you have just confirmed Douglas Murray's point!just take a second and listen to yourself will you instead of jumping all over something without thinking it through.and as for the second part of your reply you are calling me a rascist which confirms my origanal point. wow just wow!

cant you see that the far left are creating this big divide? you won't believe me but i was politically in the centre a swinging (dont go there)voter but the fact we are not allowed to ask these questions and debate such an ideology with out fear of retribution is making the problems worse?

here's a clip of people being acussed of being rascist who happen to be black,mixed race and ex muslims for just airing their concerns about extremism and islam.

haha unbelievable "dragging up the rape gang stuff" yeah lets just sweep it under the carpet for fear of upsetting people and not tackling the under lying issues? you have just confirmed Douglas Murray's point!just take a second and listen to yourself will you instead of jumping all over something without thinking it through.and as for the second part of your reply you are calling me a rascist which confirms my origanal point. wow just wow!

cant you see that the far left are creating this big divide? you won't believe me but i was politically in the centre a swinging (dont go there)voter but the fact we are not allowed to ask these questions and debate such an ideology with out fear of retribution is making the problems worse?

here's a clip of people being acussed of being rascist who happen to be black,mixed race and ex muslims for just airing their concerns about extremism and islam.

Why aren't you bringing up the convicted paedophiles that were in the BNP over and over again.

The rape gang were cunds, as is any rapist. You go on about stopping terrorism yet bring up the rape gang stuff that has nothing to do with ordinary law abiding British Muslims, yet they are bearing the brunt of the racists who can't see a difference between rapist and non rapist , just a muslamic.

And it's repeated and repeated and drip fed and soon imbeciles believe that's what they're all like.

I don't understand why you are using non white people being racist as some sort of justification.

Why aren't you bringing up the convicted paedophiles that were in the BNP over and over again.

The rape gang were cunds, as is any rapist. You go on about stopping terrorism yet bring up the rape gang stuff that has nothing to do with ordinary law abiding British Muslims, yet they are bearing the brunt of the racists who can't see a difference between rapist and non rapist , just a muslamic.

And it's repeated and repeated and drip fed and soon imbeciles believe that's what they're all like.

I don't understand why you are using non white people being racist as some sort of justification.

Is there a network of BNP paedophiles operating across towns and cities like these, systematically targeting young girls of a particular ethnicity? Do they burn the letter of their forename next 13 year old girls' anal passages with a metal wire? Ply them with cocaine? Do they shove metallic baseball bats up the v*****s of these girls? How about choking them while they rape them? Do the "BNP rapists" single out their victims because they specifically consider them, by virtue of their ethnicity, "promiscuous, decadent, sleazy... impure and immoral" (not my words), thus entirely deserving of their "punishment of exploitation and degradation?"

...yet they are bearing the brunt of the racists who can't see a difference between rapist and non rapist , just a muslamic.

And it's repeated and repeated and drip fed and soon imbeciles believe that's what they're all like.

Edited by nickgusset (05 Dec 2017 1.06am)

I no more think that than I think my vote for Brexit was to "bring back the Empire". But there you go, as ever. Telling us all what we think, so you can burn down that straw man you've just constructed.

It's why we won.

I've said my peace. You've amply demonstrated the utter futility of engaging on these types of issues with those of your ideology. To that end, I will do so no longer.