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Topic: Dispensationalism/Rapture Christians (Read 48335 times)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6

Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6

Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago. One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6

Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

This is what I mean by Protestants delving into the occult and obsessive numerology. Either way, it's important to note that numbers in the Bible don't carry literal significance, rather, they symbolize spiritual concepts. This is an example of what I said earlier about Americans not giving enough attention to literary techniques and philology, only accepting things at face value. Also, none of what you said proves the rapture at all, it only advocates some weird Zionist conspiracy.

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds, you are mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago. One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.[/quote]

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.

Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago. One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.[/quote]

How exactly am I being arrogant by saying that I don't trust my own private interpretation on Scripture and instead rely on thousands and millions of believers who have gone before me to help? I don't see how taking one verse in Daniel out of context is a very solid basis for throwing out 2000 years of Church history and teaching.

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago. One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.

How exactly am I being arrogant by saying that I don't trust my own private interpretation on Scripture and instead rely on thousands and millions of believers who have gone before me to help? I don't see how taking one verse in Daniel out of context is a very solid basis for throwing out 2000 years of Church history and teaching.[/quote]

How is it taken out of context? Are you saying NONE of the believers before you could be wrong? So they are all infallible? I never said that one verse was a basis of throwing out ALL 2000 years of church teaching. I am saying YOU are arrogant if YOU think that everything has alrady been done and understood when it CLEARLY states that SOME things will be closed until the endtimes...

Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds, you are mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).” This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar. The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times. St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.). It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist. When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917. Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself.

St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment:

Quote

The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:

Quote

That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire. This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome. In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated

Quote

“The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…

In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/

The Church will not be removed, for the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).” This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

As St. Andrew of Crete says in his commentary on the Apocalypse (Book of Revelations):

Quote

…[The Lord] also says through the Apostle that the saints will be caught up in the clouds to meet him, and he will come (as) a judge, as creator and master of creation, handing over to the saints to judge those who opposed the truly divine and blessed slavery, as the Apostle says, Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3), that is, the rulers of darkness(Eph 6:12).

If you would like to understand what the Orthodox teaches concerning the so-called “Rapture”, I recommend reading the following:

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds, you are mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).” This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar. The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times.

which scripture tells you this? If it's true, why hasn't the Antichrist come to power yet? The guarantee of a prophet is that his prophecy comes to pass.

Quote

St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.).

see above - I'm St Rachel by the way since all Christians are saints.

Quote

It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist. When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917. Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself.

well this can;t be right because the Bible itself tells you that the spirit of antichrist was abroad and that was before the Tzar was ever HEARD of!

Quote

St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment: The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

so is this a different version to the Tsar one or not? Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I thought you had unanimity of belief.

Quote

Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:size=10pt] That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire. This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome. In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

but we don't see the Antichrist so something else must be stopping him. Also Daniel identifies the Roman Empire as the one destroyed by the Kingdom of God.

Quote

The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated “The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

Quote

In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

Jesus tells you this will just be the start.

Quote

This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/

this is why people will welcome the antichrist.

Quote

The Church will not be removed, for the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

the two are not mutually exclusive.

Quote

There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).” This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

You've just contradicted yourself by quoting the very passage which tells you there WILL be a Rapture! Regarding the timing - I've pointed out that the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent.

Quote

As St. Andrew of Crete says in his commentary on the Apocalypse (Book of Revelations): …[The Lord] also says through the Apostle that the saints will be caught up in the clouds to meet him, and he will come (as) a judge, as creator and master of creation, handing over to the saints to judge those who opposed the truly divine and blessed slavery, as the Apostle says, Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3), that is, the rulers of darkness(Eph 6:12).

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

Quote

the two are not mutually exclusive.

Yes they are. How culdn't they?

Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being. It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided. James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee? Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!... ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions. For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?" (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6

Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

This is what I mean by Protestants delving into the occult and obsessive numerology. Either way, it's important to note that numbers in the Bible don't carry literal significance, rather, they symbolize spiritual concepts. This is an example of what I said earlier about Americans not giving enough attention to literary techniques and philology, only accepting things at face value. Also, none of what you said proves the rapture at all, it only advocates some weird Zionist conspiracy.

This is a very odd thing to say. Gabriel told Daniel there would be 70 weeks and obviously he meant something by it. One minute one has an Orthodox coming on and pointing out the meaning of the number seven and the next you have one complaining about Protestant numerology!

As for the occult, it doesn't come into it - I could point out that the veneration of icons is occultic.

As for numbers not carrying literal significance, this is most strange. When God attaches a number of years to a genealogy for example, it tells us something literal. Now, the fact that Orthodoxy has no insight into these things is another matter. Why don't you just say so? Since your insight is supposedly 'spiritual', go ahead and give me the 'spiritual' meaning of Daniel's 70 weeks. It is the cover story for every gap in Orthodox thinking.

Now, as for proof of the Rapture; unless you're about to deny scripture outright, we know the phenomenon exists. The only question is 'when'. I have now pointed out a couple of times that Revelation 19 has the Church in Heaven immediately BEFORE the Second Advent. Either you have a rational explanation for this or you don't. If you don't EXPECT a rational expectation then clearly you are just prepared to disengage your mind on the subject - which is presumably why you've just come back to me with a blanket denial!

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being.

you may not have noticed that I'm having to exercise patience too.

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It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided. James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee? Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!... ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions.

aah! A forum without debate? That's novel!

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For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?" (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)

Do you remember when Samuel said to Saul, "what is the sound of bleating that I hear"? Do you think perhaps God may just be interested in our obedience and not in our rationalisations? I wasn't asking WHY you disobey, I was just pointing out that you do.

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)

do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)

do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)

the Gospel is having to be returned to the earth?

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. This does in no way indicate that the Church shall dissapear before the Second Coming. Again, this is just your interpretation.

If all christians could just interpret the scriptures by themselves, there would have been no reason for the apostles to write the Epistles. The christians in Corinth and Thessalonika and all the other places could just have understood the faith by themselves.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

As for numbers not carrying literal significance, this is most strange. When God attaches a number of years to a genealogy for example, it tells us something literal. Now, the fact that Orthodoxy has no insight into these things is another matter. Why don't you just say so? Since your insight is supposedly 'spiritual', go ahead and give me the 'spiritual' meaning of Daniel's 70 weeks. It is the cover story for every gap in Orthodox thinking.

I see. From Matthew 18:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Therefore, by Rachel's logic, we are obliged to forgive the sins of others up to 490 times. After that, we are not required to do so.

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)

do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)

the Gospel is having to be returned to the earth?

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. This does in no way indicate that the Church shall dissapear before the Second Coming. Again, this is just your interpretation.

that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

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If all christians could just interpret the scriptures by themselves, there would have been no reason for the apostles to write the Epistles. The christians in Corinth and Thessalonika and all the other places could just have understood the faith by themselves.

but this is just an assertion that there is no value in teaching. We KNOW why the Epistles were written; so that we can check men's ideas against them. That's where I check mine, where do you check yours?

that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

It is not! None of what you have quoted suggest that the Church will not be present. The Church is on Earth and in heaven, united by Christ, who is the head of the Church.

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but this is just an assertion that there is no value in teaching. We KNOW why the Epistles were written; so that we can check men's ideas against them. That's where I check mine, where do you check yours?

I read the scriptures, but at least I have the humility to accept that other people are more wise than I and trust that the early christians probably knew more about how the scriptures should be understood than we do.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

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But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.

There does not exist one definition of common sense. What is reasonable to one person may be nonsense to another.

try, 'that which is rational', as in, is it rational to assume the Church goes straight up and straight back down when Revelation tells us it's already in heaven?!!!!!!!

Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

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But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.

There does not exist one definition of common sense. What is reasonable to one person may be nonsense to another.

try, 'that which is rational', as in, is it rational to assume the Church goes straight up and straight back down when Revelation tells us it's already in heaven?!!!!!!!

As I have already said, the Church exists in Heaven AND on Earth. The Church shall never dissapear for Christ promised that he would be with us until the end of days and the Church is the Body of Christ.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds, you are mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).” This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar. The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times.

which scripture tells you this? If it's true, why hasn't the Antichrist come to power yet? The guarantee of a prophet is that his prophecy comes to pass.

“Until” does not imply that the Antichrist will come “immediately” after the removal of “He who now restrains".

St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.).

see above - I'm St Rachel by the way since all Christians are saints.

This statement indicates that you do not understand the meaning of the term or how it was used in the New Testament and in the early Church. Such interpretations of the saints have been accepted by the entire Church for centuries. It is the Church that is the “pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15)”. Upon the authority of the undivided Church we accept the Scriptures as inspired. Upon the same authority we accept the interpretations of the saints which have been handed down to us over centuries as being themselves authoritative. You claim to believe in the Scriptures, but these are our Scriptures; compiled, preserved, and handed down by the same Orthodox Church of which we here are members. If some members of this forum come across as offended due to your questioning, it is due in part to the frustration over seeing someone take what is ours, completely distort it, and then use it to beat us up with. Of course, this occurred even at the time of the Apostles. St. Peter wrote concerning the writings of St. Paul that, "our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15,16)."

It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist. When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917. Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself.

well this can;t be right because the Bible itself tells you that the spirit of antichrist was abroad and that was before the Tzar was ever HEARD of!

This does not say that “only then” will the spirit of antichrist spread abroad, but is speaking in terms of degrees. The spirit of antichrist will become even more pervasive and widespread after the martyrdom of the Tsar than before. History has shown that this is the case.

St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment: The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

so is this a different version to the Tsar one or not? Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I thought you had unanimity of belief.

No, the words of St. John of San Francisco are consistent with the quotes provided previously.

Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:size=10pt] That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire. This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome. In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated “The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

The statement above that “the world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist” does not imply a knowledge of who the Antichrist is, only that the world is more rapidly embracing the spirit of antichrist which will eventually lead to the enthronement of the Antichrist.

The Church will not leave at the Rapture. The word “Rapture” is not Scriptural. It is the invention of heretics.

In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/

this is why people will welcome the antichrist.

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The Church will not be removed, for the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).” This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

You've just contradicted yourself by quoting the very passage which tells you there WILL be a Rapture! Regarding the timing - I've pointed out that the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent.

There is no contradiction. It appears to be a contradiction to you only because you have interpreted the verse in a way that contradicts the meaning of the verse. There will be no Rapture in the sense of the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” which has been the focus of this discussion. As has been pointed out, the Church is even now in heaven and on earth. That is why we in the Church have such a close relationship with the saints who lived before us and who have been glorified by God for their obedience to his will. The Church is in heaven and on earth, and those saints who have come before us are part of the same body of Christ. They have fought for, died for, preserved, and handed down the same faith that they received from the Holy Apostles and continues to be followed in its entirety in the Orthodox Church.

I don't know if you have read the links I shared on the Orthodox view of the Rapture, but I do recommend reading them if you are truly interested in understanding and are not simply trying to "prove that you are right". Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum who wants to learn about and better understand the Orthodox faith. Your messages, however, seem to indicate that you are trying to "show that Orthodoxy is wrong" or "prove that your sectarian Protestant beliefs are right" based on strange interpretations of our Holy Scriptures. If you believe that you have the truth, then go your way. There is nothing anyone here can do to help you. Here we know that the Orthodox Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth", and so you are wasting a great deal of time and energy if your intent is to convert to or convince us of your strange personal beliefs. If you are genuinely interesting in learning and understanding, then please consider how your messages might be written to express a more humble and respectful attitude.

It is clear that Sola Scriptura, "Scripture alone", is a central doctrine of yours. If so, please read the following article from an Orthodox priest who also once believed this doctrine:

If you have questions about this doctrine that are not covered in these pieces, feel free to begin a separate thread on this forum to discuss your questions, or try to find an existing thread with a Sola Scriptura theme to post on. Or, better yet, contact the author of the article.

The biggest question raised by the thread so far is the question of interpretation and authority. If you begin to understand how the Scriptures came down to us from the early Church, and how the early Church (who understood the original languages and lived close to the time of the Apostles) interpreted the Scriptures, you will begin to understand why the Orthodox Church believes as it does and why we here find your approach to be filled with error. I don't know if you have any knowledge of Church history, but the Church has been confronted with enumerable heretics since the time of the Apostles, and we here who are familiar with this history, know how the heretics have always (mis)used and abused the Scriptures "to their own destruction", to use the words of St. Peter. To you, it may seem like you are starting a fresh debate. To us, it is just another encounter with the deceptions spread by the Father of Lies.

I don't know if you have read the links I shared on the Orthodox view of the Rapture, but I do recommend reading them if you are truly interested in understanding and are not simply trying to "prove that you are right". Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum who wants to learn about and better understand the Orthodox faith. Your messages, however, seem to indicate that you are trying to "show that Orthodoxy is wrong" or "prove that your sectarian Protestant beliefs are right" based on strange interpretations of our Holy Scriptures. If you believe that you have the truth, then go your way. There is nothing anyone here can do to help you. Here we know that the Orthodox Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth", and so you are wasting a great deal of time and energy if your intent is to convert to or convince us of your strange personal beliefs. If you are genuinely interesting in learning and understanding, then please consider how your messages might be written to express a more humble and respectful attitude.

It is clear that Sola Scriptura, "Scripture alone", is a central doctrine of yours. If so, please read the following article from an Orthodox priest who also once believed this doctrine:

If you have questions about this doctrine that are not covered in these pieces, feel free to begin a separate thread on this forum to discuss your questions, or try to find an existing thread with a Sola Scriptura theme to post on. Or, better yet, contact the author of the article.

The biggest question raised by the thread so far is the question of interpretation and authority. If you begin to understand how the Scriptures came down to us from the early Church, and how the early Church (who understood the original languages and lived close to the time of the Apostles) interpreted the Scriptures, you will begin to understand why the Orthodox Church believes as it does and why we here find your approach to be filled with error. I don't know if you have any knowledge of Church history, but the Church has been confronted with enumerable heretics since the time of the Apostles, and we here who are familiar with this history, know how the heretics have always (mis)used and abused the Scriptures "to their own destruction", to use the words of St. Peter. To you, it may seem like you are starting a fresh debate. To us, it is just another encounter with the deceptions spread by the Father of Lies.

The US is an adolescent country, and like all adolescents, it believes it knows everything there is to know about everything. Don't be too hard on the kid.

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'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

It is not! None of what you have quoted suggest that the Church will not be present. The Church is on Earth and in heaven, united by Christ, who is the head of the Church.

Are you suggesting that the WHOLE Church won't be present at the Wedding Supper?

MARRIAGE SUPPER7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

SECOND ADVENT

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

ARMAGEDDON19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

ah, you don't sin, so you don't need salvation ie. Satan has come along and whispered into your ear, "hath God said.....?" Have you never read of God's anger with Israel's sin?

He didn't say that. You're putting words into his mouth. Nowhere did he say that he didn't sin, he just gave another definiton of Salvation than you.

which of these do you dispute?

1.Orthodoxy believes that baptism is a precondition for salvation. Without baptism, it is impossible to have salvation.2.Orthodoxy considers baptism as a “mystery,” even “the first mystery” in “the first Gospel.”3.Orthodoxy claims baptism cleanses a person from all sins committed both by himself and his ancestors.4.Orthodoxy accepts the baptism of infants and small children who are baptized on the basis of the godfather’s faith, who then becomes the spiritual father of the child.5.Orthodoxy claims the name of the child christened under the godfather to be entered in the “Book of Life” that the Lamb possesses in heaven.6.Orthodoxy considers the name of the baptized one is recorded in the annals of “Those Born and Christened in the Church of Christ.”

Wow!! !! !! Are you serious right now???Where did you get this statements from? I'm just curious....

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being. It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided. James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee? Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!... ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions. For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?" (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)

To refrain, rachel, you've still yet to respond to this parable--which, clearly demonstrates that the concept of a rapture is unfound in Scripture.

And as a reminder, rachel, you still haven't proven the rapture to us--which is the original purpose of this topic--but have taken it off into twenty different directions alongside with personal insults. You've made it well known that you don't understand Orthodox theology, but you still insult us. You've ignored and/or misunderstood most of the arguments presented here, and you've asked the same questions after we've consistently answered them.

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?'The rapture is scriptural:1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Is God's word to be trusted? He says it is:2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

The rapture as the Dispensationalists expound it is definitely NOT scriptural at all. You misinterpret the scriptures. Paul told the Thessalonians that Christ would return in THEIR lifetime . He said that Christ would be revealed from heaven to give THEM rest from THEIR persecutions (2 Thessalonians 2:8-13).

Paul said that the living would be caught up to meet the Lord in the breath. Their dead bodies would be left behind for their loved ones to bury.

One of his doctoral dissertation has the most interesting of titles: Dissertation: Prolegomena: A Survey and Introduction to Method in Theology, Beginning with Presuppositional Epistemology and Resulting in Normative Dispensational Theology. That definitely interests me as I enjoy the relationship between theological method, epistemology, hermeneutics, Presuppositionalism and eschatology.

I am fascinated with your doctoral dissertation through the Trinity School of Theology as it touches on Presuppositional apologetics and Dispensationalism. Can you tell us a little about what it’s about?

The project was the fruit of years of research and teaching in the areas of epistemology, hermeneutics, and theological method. In observing the connection between each discipline and their interdependence, it seemed reasonable that we should develop our theology with consistency from the ground up, rather than appealing partially to various traditions that are sometimes mutually exclusive. In doing that work I recognized that presuppositionalism was more epistemology than apologetics, and should have a foundational role in theological method.

One of his doctoral dissertation has the most interesting of titles: Dissertation: Prolegomena: A Survey and Introduction to Method in Theology, Beginning with Presuppositional Epistemology and Resulting in Normative Dispensational Theology. That definitely interests me as I enjoy the relationship between theological method, epistemology, hermeneutics, Presuppositionalism and eschatology.

I am fascinated with your doctoral dissertation through the Trinity School of Theology as it touches on Presuppositional apologetics and Dispensationalism. Can you tell us a little about what it’s about?

The project was the fruit of years of research and teaching in the areas of epistemology, hermeneutics, and theological method. In observing the connection between each discipline and their interdependence, it seemed reasonable that we should develop our theology with consistency from the ground up, rather than appealing partially to various traditions that are sometimes mutually exclusive. In doing that work I recognized that presuppositionalism was more epistemology than apologetics, and should have a foundational role in theological method.

I went to register on a Protestant-oriented Christian forum once and it required registrants to pick one's end-time belief category on a list: Premillennialism, Preterism, Chiliasm, Post-tribulationism, Dispensationalism, etc. etc.

I justed wanted to pick "Normal", but that was not an option.

Someone on OC.net has probably come across that list.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 12:12:20 PM by rakovsky »

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Never has there been as stupid of a teaching using such big words and involving study of one's own made up theories as dispensationalism.

If you understood that God works out his will across multiple dispensations through sanctified human agents such as Saint Paul you wouldn't make such comments, rooted as they are in an antidisestablishmentarianistic sentiment vis-à-vis the kingdom of God and His sovereign will coming to fruition through American hegemony.

Never has there been as stupid of a teaching using such big words and involving study of one's own made up theories as dispensationalism.

If you understood that God works out his will across multiple dispensations through sanctified human agents such as Saint Paul you wouldn't make such comments, rooted as they are in an antidisestablishmentarianistic sentiment vis-à-vis the kingdom of God and His sovereign will coming to fruition through American hegemony.

Why do I suddently feel a lot less intelligent?

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.