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Nice Knots! Are you a sideman here? I hear the sax player calling the tunes. It's great hanging out with a good player.

I found a super-nice sax guy here that's really super good but I haven't gigged with him (other than playing at a jam). But I'm not going to abandon my current sax player for him. I probably couldn't afford him anyway. I'm starting on my 3rd year with the same band members. At least I know what it's like to play with someone in the world-class category.

Jazzwee ... that Chopin Etude has exactly the technique you want to use for those II passages we're discussing. In particular, the II arpeggios (and Chopin's ... and as you know he's got that A major arpeggio in there that's unbelievably clunky to play!)

Hey printer1, I'm actually able to play those upward arpeggios now. I was trying to articulate every single note (just like in Chopin 10/1). That didn't work here for me. But what did work was just to play it like a chord. Then I broke it slightly. Meaning I keep a fixed hand shape on the upward arpeggio. Then it was simple. I was working too hard on this.

I think it was confusing trying to read what the notation meant, and every variation thereof.

It's cool that you decided to play the head on some of the tunes. Very nice!

Thanks Knots. I want to do trio gigs so I've got to hone down the heads. I rely too much on the sax player.

Careful for what you wish for, JW. I love playing trio, but its pretty hard to make it sound good most of the time, and I know that I'm probably the most to blame, even though I like to complain about how the other two should know the tunes better. At least with a sax or other lead instrument it felt like I could contribute without taking too much responsibility.

That being said, I'd always prefer trio over quartet or quintet, pressure and all.

I'm doing a quartet with a guitar player every month and I play the heads so I'm carrying a lot of the load now. Gotta learn to pace myself on the longer solos. My solo on Whisper Not was long...

Fortunately, Whisper Not is a tune that makes you sound good just because of the changes (minor ii-V's).

Reason for stop: Bass solo, but he then went to the drummer to do a solo. But what the heck, I didn't know that till it happened.

Also the Sax player didn't overplay either. Just lots of space and it worked for the first time. Usually, the sax player overdoes this tune leaving it too busy.

When I tried to do sixteenths, I found I was stiff that day. So I couldn't execute on a build up. So the solution is to start with a LOT less so there's room for some contrast even if it's just simple. The problem is that I've been playing with a Quintet most of the time and I typically only play two choruses of a solo. Trio thinking is a little different. Shaping a solo was a low priority before. But of course not now.

I have to learn to hold back. Relax. And feel the pulse.

RECORDING -- BTW recorder was closest to me and pointing at me. But I don't like my volume to be disproportionate to a real piano. It just bothers my senses. Anyway, I must have adjusted the volume because Dolphin Dance piano was much louder. Too loud in fact.

Fortunately, Whisper Not is a tune that makes you sound good just because of the changes (minor ii-V's).

I guess I've had a different view of this tune then. I've always felt it to be a bit elusive trying to tie together the Cm to Gm to Dm and make it sound like something musical. At a basic theory level it seems pretty easy, but to my ears there's many bad melodic choices to be made in this tune.

Originally Posted By: jw

RECORDING -- BTW recorder was closest to me and pointing at me. But I don't like my volume to be disproportionate to a real piano. It just bothers my senses. Anyway, I must have adjusted the volume because Dolphin Dance piano was much louder. Too loud in fact.

How odd. It sounds like its from some distance of at least 5 feet. Get it closer if this is the case and we'll hear a bit better sound from your amp. You don't need to turn up, just get yourself into the mix for the recording more.

Hey KnotsThanks for posting Nearness of You. You're great at these ballads in a major key. It can't be easy to play ballads.You listen so well to the sax when you comp.Very nice solo too, and I like your clear signalling during your outro when you hand back over to the sax.

Hi BeeWelcome back from the Himalayas or Antarctica or where-ever you were MIA.A friend saw Victor Wooten live in Sydney with Bela Fleck in Sydney a few years ago. What a talented bassist.

JW, Thanks, yes I got called in for this gig. Back in 2 months. Looking forward to it. More originals, which is great. I just hope he will give us charts a little more in advance. The original posted here is not really hard but it has a sharp turn on the bridge that I kept missing. It's also 3 pages long and I forgot my music stand... but let's just say a little more time would have been nice.

Cus, Thanks for your nice comments. I like short and sweet ballads. I like solos with a lot of space, it's easier to complement.

Blue Monk wasn't bad. You have to alter the rhythm of the melody to fit 7/4, but then it works reasonably well. We actually played a 7/4 pattern for the first 8 bars, than then swung the last four bars in 4. For the 7/4 pattern, we played on beats 1, 2 and 3, and the ands of 4, 5 and 6. That's a pretty easy pattern to groove on. This was just a fun class exercise, but everyone enjoyed playing it.

JW, Thanks, yes I got called in for this gig. Back in 2 months. Looking forward to it. More originals, which is great. I just hope he will give us charts a little more in advance. The original posted here is not really hard but it has a sharp turn on the bridge that I kept missing. It's also 3 pages long and I forgot my music stand... but let's just say a little more time would have been nice.

I've only worked as a sideman once. I just calculated that I had roughly 40 gigs last year. I already on a trend to have more this year and all of them are with me as leader.

I really like being able to control the set list. It makes me confident that I get enough time to woodshed.

Jazzwee ... that Chopin Etude has exactly the technique you want to use for those II passages we're discussing. In particular, the II arpeggios (and Chopin's ... and as you know he's got that A major arpeggio in there that's unbelievably clunky to play!)

Hey printer1, I'm actually able to play those upward arpeggios now. I was trying to articulate every single note (just like in Chopin 10/1). That didn't work here for me. But what did work was just to play it like a chord. Then I broke it slightly. Meaning I keep a fixed hand shape on the upward arpeggio. Then it was simple. I was working too hard on this.

I think it was confusing trying to read what the notation meant, and every variation thereof.

Just a funny comment I got today. We're playing Inner Urge again in a couple of days and after weeks of woodshedding, my guitar player just labeled the head IMPOSSIBLE. LOL.

In the meantime, I finally got to play it as written. Whew! I think it took me a month to unravel. So anyone here tried playing this head? Got to be the hardest I've encountered so far.

[So anyone here tried playing this head? Got to be the hardest I've encountered so far.

It's a tough one, those kind of things are much easier to play on sax than on piano (or guitar). If necessary I would just adjust the tune slightly, call it interpretation. The changes are tough as well, especially hard to get something sounding good on the chords at the end I think. Good for pentatonic practicing though.

Thanks, jazzwee, The postings have lots of information that I can cut and paste and try - and use for a reference. I have a minor surgery that will slow me down for about a week, and then I will be up to full speed. But all the posters including yourself keeping the threat alive especially helps those of us who are trying to get our feet wet in jazz and appreciate the help and support to all of us as we grow with jazz. Thanks.

Jazzwee! The (EXCELLENT!) way you're playing IU (now) is also the way to play that chopin etude (10/1)! Exactly as u describe for IU!

But, if you did (whatever the reason) want to articulate every note (in either) IE OR 10/1, then do all you've described AND let your hand BOUNCE from note 2 note... Bounce as if your fingers were endlessly skipping stones!

Hey Printer1 -- somehow Chopin 10/1 felt different. IU needed more finger strength. Chopin has a lot of arm movement while this one does not. I had to play a little of 10/1 to see the difference.

As I mentioned before, I had success only when playing it as a chord first and then breaking the chord.

One of the technique issues in 10/1 was to not pre-stretch the fingers and just bounce as you say. But I couldn't do that here. There was no time. So I just pre-stretched to the chord shape. I realize this adds tension but there was no other way for me to do it. I think I'd have to work backward on the tension thing.

I listened to some other pianists play the head and can hear that they don't do it perfectly either so I don't feel so bad. But I'm glad I got it. BTW my Sax player has been practicing this too and hasn't figured it out either too. So apparently it's not easy on Sax either.

It's a tough one, those kind of things are much easier to play on sax than on piano (or guitar). If necessary I would just adjust the tune slightly, call it interpretation. The changes are tough as well, especially hard to get something sounding good on the chords at the end I think. Good for pentatonic practicing though.

Yes, the last eight bars are pretty easy with pentatonics. I'm amazed at some people that come up with some really nice lines on that. I'm actually ok with most of the changes. It's starting to gel. It's the last 4 bars that is really hard to hear melodically.

To be specific, you go from C Major to A Major to Bb7 to G. There's nothing I have played prior that gives me any concept of how to approach this. So at the moment, I've attacked it with triad shapes.

You can hear is MS DOESN"T articulate every note. That's key for anyone playing this head (guitar, piano, violin, accordion, whatever ...)

What I'm not saying is the head is easy. Am I'm NOT saying you have to be at the level of MS (or JH) to play it. But doable? ... yes. the head is doable! As you've now found!

Hope this helps!

Wow to do that in Unison! But as you can hear, you can't unison those arpeggios perfectly.

When I started, I didn't articulate the upward arpeggio like most. I'm articulating it now. If I were giving advice on how to play this, I would say like you -- DON'T articulate the upward arpeggio initially. It gave me a sense of the time required to be filled so I don't rush it.

This was a fun little project! I'm glad I did this.

I've played this live twice now and will play it again tomorrow. We'll see if I get better (and not rush).

jazz wee ... sounds like you got quite a bit from this all in all! so, really, it just comes down to KEEP playing it! it's really really interesting as you've been describing your IU learning curve. .... bit by bit, we all get to see how your persistence (your own inner urge? .... sorry! a bad pun!) led o all kinds of solutions.

maybe worth saying ..... most of us try to be as technically perfect as we can. but, things like IE show it's not always necessary or even desirable. ... if mike stern and that pianist aren't totally in sync, well ... that's a message in of itself ...

technique in the end is what helps you to play great music but technique on it's own isn't great music! jim mcneely said in an interview somewhere that great great players that people talk about as in "they can sightread anything" ... sometimes said in the vernacular as "they can read fly [censored]!" ... well, JM says yes, there are those that can read that really really detailed stuff. and he also says that's what it often sounds like. FS! because it's technically perfect but that's all. so for him, those kinds of players *aren't* the interesting ones with whom he likes to work ...

those chords in IU in thirds ... ... triad shapes (as you mention) and pentatonics are really good for that. they make playing on those kinds of chords really easy (well, easier .... ) chick corea's "now he sings, now he sobs" has a ton of chord progressions like that. and chick just plays pentatonics over them!~

hope this helps but more importantly great to hear about what you're learning from IU ... it's helping all of us!

it's really really interesting as you've been describing your IU learning curve. .... bit by bit, we all get to see how your persistence (your own inner urge? .... sorry! a bad pun!) led o all kinds of solutions.

Well for awhile no one was responding so I thought everyone was bored. LOL. Or -- I had to think later -- no one else plays this.

I do think that handling challenging tunes is how we accelerate our learning. It might take a while before I can play this in my sleep, but the journey itself is fun.

Any other tunes to recommend that are fun to play but extra challenging?

Some I've played before but have forgotten are Tones for Jones Bones and Along Came Betty. I played Very Early yesterday and it's starting to sound better than my early tries a couple of years ago.

jazzwee. I'd recommend some Bud Powell tunes for challenge. As I think I wrote elsewhere, I've learned Celia and it's been a lot of fun. I also got a transcription, so I learned Bud Powell's left hand for the head, as well. Un Poco Loco would be a real challenge, but that would also take a lot of practice time with the band. Joy Spring was a pretty tough head, too. What's nice about these tunes is that the changes are easy, so once you've played the head, the blowing is no big deal. I'm with you that learning tough heads is the most entertaining way to improve technique.

Funny you should mention Night Dreamer. My bass player wanted to play that, but we're a piano trio and I told him I just didn't think we could make is sound right without a sax. You need the piano player knocking out the chordal riff underneath the melody. Happens a lot where my bass player hears a tune and he hears rhythm and melody, but doesn't have a sense of what can work with just a piano trio.

jazz wee, those are all excellent (and challenging) tunes that you mention. in terms of benny golson - stablemates has some interesting difficulties. IU in 12 keys would be an interesting learn. or you might get the original joe henderson album (maybe you have it already) and go through all of the other tunes it has. that'll give you a pretty good sense of what JH was hearing back in IU days.

or, bud powell stuff, as jjo says, is always amazing. there are all kinds tricky little things in that go in unexpected ways.

another great jazz composer is herbie nichols. anything by him is fabulous!

jazzwee. I'd recommend some Bud Powell tunes for challenge. As I think I wrote elsewhere, I've learned Celia and it's been a lot of fun. I also got a transcription, so I learned Bud Powell's left hand for the head, as well. Un Poco Loco would be a real challenge, but that would also take a lot of practice time with the band. Joy Spring was a pretty tough head, too. What's nice about these tunes is that the changes are easy, so once you've played the head, the blowing is no big deal. I'm with you that learning tough heads is the most entertaining way to improve technique.

Funny you should mention Night Dreamer. My bass player wanted to play that, but we're a piano trio and I told him I just didn't think we could make is sound right without a sax. You need the piano player knocking out the chordal riff underneath the melody. Happens a lot where my bass player hears a tune and he hears rhythm and melody, but doesn't have a sense of what can work with just a piano trio.

Joy Spring is definitely a head that I shouldn't ignore. The tune itself I've practiced on without the head. Which reminds me, I've forgotten how to play the head to Donna Lee. No one calls it at a jam and it is one of the most difficult long heads.

I'll check out the others. But these are just difficult heads but not necessarily difficult tunes. Reminds me of Ceora (Lee Morgan). I "assigned" the head long time ago to my sax player so I never had to play it. I cheated. Now I can't play it in trio. It's easy after the head.

jazz wee, those are all excellent (and challenging) tunes that you mention. in terms of benny golson - stablemates has some interesting difficulties. IU in 12 keys would be an interesting learn. or you might get the original joe henderson album (maybe you have it already) and go through all of the other tunes it has. that'll give you a pretty good sense of what JH was hearing back in IU days.

or, bud powell stuff, as jjo says, is always amazing. there are all kinds tricky little things in that go in unexpected ways.

another great jazz composer is herbie nichols. anything by him is fabulous!

Stablemates -- yes! Benny Golson has really great tunes. Saw him live doing Along Came Betty.

I remember now that I started on Con Alma. Easy head but the changes are unusual. I haven't tried playing this yet.

BTW -- have you guys kept count of how many tunes you've all played? I remember at the start that I played 20 tunes or something. Now I'm playing so many tunes a month, I've lost track. I just recall the 200 or so on my iRealB app that I use for set lists.

I thought it was impossible to remember so many. I just it just comes naturally.

I have to always be conscious of what I play at our recurring gigs so we don't keep sounding the same. This means that every month, I always add new tunes. Tough being a jazz musician!

If I were Led Zep, I'd just have to play Stairway to Heaven over and over....and over...and over...