Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

Logged

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[60]

He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[61] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[62]

As for the rest; some could not break the conditioning (since infancy) of the un-logic implanted by the Church, others knew to do so could destroy them (as had happened to Galileo), this applies especially to the politicians. Also, I'm certain a considerable number, despite their intelligence, were just plain hoodwinked.

Logged

A confidence man knows he's lying; that limits his scope. But a successful shaman believes what he says — and belief is contagious; there is no limit to his scope.

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

It also leaves room that it could have been One Above All, a deity Who actually posts on this forum.

There's also the concept of pandeism, and the somewhat similar concept of lila in Hinduism, whereby a god transforms itself into the universe. What if the Big Bang was a god blowing itself up in order to create the physical universe? That hypothesis would at least explain the dearth of physical evidence for gods out there in space.

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

It also leaves room that it could have been One Above All, a deity Who actually posts on this forum.

There's also the concept of pandeism, and the somewhat similar concept of lila in Hinduism, whereby a god transforms itself into the universe. What if the Big Bang was a god blowing itself up in order to create the physical universe? That hypothesis would at least explain the dearth of physical evidence for gods out there in space.

What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Logged

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Didn't you do your debate homework?

Shifting the burden of proof is a quick way to get people irritated.

For example, "Prove that a magical blue, green, and orange, potato is not in my sock drawer."

Logged

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Rather in the same way that New York is a long way from Adelaide? At least they're on the same planet. The alternative of something magicking life into existence is certainly far more complex to understand.

Quote

Takes a leap of giant faith...

I don't know what faith giants have... you probably mean, "Takes a giant leap of faith.

Here's a definition of "faith" - "FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow. That is a great list of amazing people! Many of whom were imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians!

Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

The point is that there is no faith in abiogenesis, which was your claim. We atheists, in general, don't require faith. We require evidence, the antithesis of faith, so please stop trying to build strawmen and false accusations. It makes you seem disingenuous.

When we say "I dont know", does that also leave room for any and every creation story, past, present, and future? If not, why not?

Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

Not exactly. We're taking the default position that if there is no evidence of a god (hidden or otherwise), there is no sense in imagining one. Why make one up?

Quote

So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

Nope. Please consider the following: How much faith does it take to not believe that ancient aliens populated this planet? I mean, it could have happened, right? So it takes a leap of faith for both sides, right? Really?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

1) what if I say "I don't care??" :-) In an academic sense of course I do care, but knowing the answer will not, I think, substantively change my day-to-day life. Unless cool scientific advances come from the answer...

2) The fact that every question on how things work that has ever had a satisfactory answer has come from science, and not from a supernatural being, lends credence to putting a trust that sciene will eventually come up with an answer to any question that science *can* answer. Saying "I don't know" is part of the scientific process. While it's technically true that "I don't know" leaves room that it could have been *a* god, it could have been ANY god. Add to that the fact that with every answer science gives its track record improves, while further worsening the track record of the supernatural. Given all that, it's nonsensical to say that "Well, since I don't know, then god!"

Logged

It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today. I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.~jdawg70

Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

First off, that's a stupid statement. You think you backed me into some kind of conundrum?

I live my life based on things that are not hiding (lord knows why a god would hide himself), nor would I have faith in a god that doesn't exist. But you are right, there is no difference between the two.

You just keep swinging and swaying trying to avoid the evidence bullets, but you've been shot full of holes.

Logged

A confidence man knows he's lying; that limits his scope. But a successful shaman believes what he says — and belief is contagious; there is no limit to his scope.

What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow. That is a great list of amazing people! Many of whom were imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians!

I made a statement close to this on page 1 it was ignored

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow. That is a great list of amazing people! Many of whom were imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians!

I made a statement close to this on page 1 it was ignored

And I said this....

Quote

You just keep swinging and swaying trying to avoid the evidence bullets, but you've been shot full of holes.

Can you say TROLL?

I am waiting for one True Christian to be able to answer most of our questions legitimately, but all they do is dip, dodge, wiggle, twist, philosophize and say we have no morals.

Logged

A confidence man knows he's lying; that limits his scope. But a successful shaman believes what he says — and belief is contagious; there is no limit to his scope.

Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So the god in the OT could be trying to hide himself because he is really the demon Baal in disguise?

No wonder you found that Catholics use Baal's symbols. They got it right. In many places in the OT it slips out that he is really Baal and in one place Baal says don't call me Baal anymore I'm hiding in disguise, call me Yahweh. (Hosea)