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Originally posted by thexrated

Looking at how amazing add-ons people make for single player games with good building toolks, like Oblivion, Skyrim and Neverwinter Nights, I do not see why MMOs could not be build as a collaborative effort. Naturally you would need some kind of peer review process for the additions, but practically anyone could create content from items to quests, to new countries and cities. Player driven content creation naturally needs a review system unless it very well defined and restricted.

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Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by Killsmallchi

THere are games out there that do this. The problem is that none of them are AAA producers, and you people dont want to support them to grow the community. If you want to complain fine, but if you want to do something about it go subscribe to someone trying to do something new or interesting. (i.e. Mortal online)

If SV actually showed some promise, then they'd be worth supporting. They haven't showed anything more than what some inexperienced hobby developer could do given the same tools.

I'm all for supporting indies, or rather, indies that know what they're doing. Take minecraft for example. Bought it, would buy expansions, sequals, etc because the developer has shown he can produce a product of not only innovation, but acceptable quality.

Oh, and I also forgot, PRICE. Indie games for indie prices, who thought of such a brilliant idea.

You do understand that mine craft is nothing as difficult as an MMO and that is was in beta for years right? Your expectations are not reasonable. And no, most hobby devs cannot do what SV did. Idiot. Probably never made a game in your life, aside from maybe realmcrafter.

Yes, expecting a semi quality product is not reasonable. Considering SVs main programmer is mainly an unreal scripter, I'd say a hobby developer could do more.

Whether making one type of game is harder or not, people without the required expertise to make such a game have no business trying to market their product.

Don't get mad a t me because you chose a shit example. I bet you would be bashing on Wurm and Notch made that too. Or do you think Wurm is a good MMO? If you think an indie team is going to be able to make a game with polish like WoW that sounds like a personal problem. Even WoW and TOR were loaded with bugs at launch.

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Really it is a lack of empty space. And if you have a shinys system like Rift or EQ2 you can really encouarge people to just run 15 minutes in some direction and just be in the middle of nowhere. There doesnt even have to be any questors -- just areas where people rarely are that collect shinys and some monsters to kill... Maybe some different kinds of monsters that might have different drops than the run of the mill ones people have quests for.

What did it was things like the planes of power clickies.

Since then pretty much everything has had a method of fast travel.

When it takes an HOUR to go from one level 24 hunting option to another level 24 hunting option and it means spending some time where the monsters are level 35 and you are running for your life -- then you have what the games have lost.

When you can just hit a button and enter a dungeon from the other side of the world, you lose it completely.

One valuable method of making a dungeon tougher // worthy of decent drops is putting it way out in the middle of absolutely nowhere where it takes you 20 minutes to get there and 20 minutes to get BACK there if you die.

THere are games out there that do this. The problem is that none of them are AAA producers, and you people dont want to support them to grow the community. If you want to complain fine, but if you want to do something about it go subscribe to someone trying to do something new or interesting. (i.e. Mortal online)

If SV actually showed some promise, then they'd be worth supporting. They haven't showed anything more than what some inexperienced hobby developer could do given the same tools.

I'm all for supporting indies, or rather, indies that know what they're doing. Take minecraft for example. Bought it, would buy expansions, sequals, etc because the developer has shown he can produce a product of not only innovation, but acceptable quality.

Oh, and I also forgot, PRICE. Indie games for indie prices, who thought of such a brilliant idea.

You do understand that mine craft is nothing as difficult as an MMO and that is was in beta for years right? Your expectations are not reasonable. And no, most hobby devs cannot do what SV did. Idiot. Probably never made a game in your life, aside from maybe realmcrafter.

Yes, expecting a semi quality product is not reasonable. Considering SVs main programmer is mainly an unreal scripter, I'd say a hobby developer could do more.

Whether making one type of game is harder or not, people without the required expertise to make such a game have no business trying to market their product.

Don't get mad a t me because you chose a shit example. I bet you would be bashing on Wurm and Notch made that too. Or do you think Wurm is a good MMO? If you think an indie team is going to be able to make a game with polish like WoW that sounds like a personal problem. Even WoW and TOR were loaded with bugs at launch.

Who's mad? I think you're mad. I won't really call Wurm great, but Wurm is better than MO, probably has a bigger player base too. Who said anyting about AAA polish? Some developers can't debug. Unfortunately, that's a required skill for professional development. MO is way past launch.

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It had been 18 months since I played vanguard and it was great seeing my old level 50 sorcerer sitting there waiting for me.

Now I had a beast of a computer with a 2560x1440 monitor and a GTX 590.I maxed out all the settings and was happy with what I saw.

I went to some really low level mobs to get used to all my skills again and today I headed off to lvl 50 -55 area.

I had forgot all about the countering and mirroring of incoming spells. It was tough and challenging to react so fast to them. Total contrast to SWTOR and yeah I died several times and had to race back looking for my tombstone and you know what I loved it.I was finally really enjoying the fact each time I went for a 4 dotter I could die if I didn't get a crit or two.It felt rewarding overcoming a tough mob.

I just need to find a new guild to join now.

Maybe going free to play could really resurrect this gem of a game.

The population is low but looking at the forums there seems to be more and more people joining everyday.

If people want an old style hardcore MMO then it's here waiting to be explored.

I really don't like the new starter island they have.I much prefer the old racial area's like Martok for example.If you start at the starter island with a toon then I think alts can then choose starter island or racial area start.My pick is the racial area's.

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Originally posted by Alasti

Unfortunately the genre of MMO's have been dumbed down so much to please the masses that people who loved the original MMO's (not discussing MUD's right now) like UO or EQ1 etc. will probably not like any of the current games out there.

What I think games lack now is a world where exploration is a huge part of the game. Exploration involves wanting to see new things, encounter new things, and being afraid of what might be around the corner. I have not been afraid of dying in a game since the beginning of EQ1 and Ultima Online. In EQ1, you left all your stuff on your body and you had 1 week to either get it back or lose it forever...death in a dungeon became a whole new quest ("Get my body back"). Similarly in UO, when you died, your stuff remained on your corpse and anyone could come by and take your stuff (heck, even the monster who killed you took something and you had to kill him to get it back). Again, a whole new quest was just created - "GET MY CORPSE BACK." What I'm trying to say is something is missing with all these games that has taken the excitement out of playing.

I don't want this to become solely a "death penalty" discussion, as I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing, and the fact that when i die, in pretty much ANY other current game, I don't even flinch, much less panic and need to round-up my friends for a "Search for and recover Alasti's Corpse quest."

Some super-wealthy programmer (who also feels the way I do and isn't making the game to maximize profits) needs to create a game that is NOT catered to the masses and focuses on what makes games fun, even if that doesn't make as much money as it might otherwise bring in. I for one would pay $50/month for a game where this was the case (or maybe even more).

I know this is a pipe-dream, but one can always hope.

If you want PvE you're out of luck, PvE to MMO Developers means easy-mode now. If you want a PvP game with serious penalities that make the game more interesting then I suggest you jump on board the Darkfall community, perhaps support Darkfall 2.0. Maybe even Archeage, though I'm not sure how that game will go.

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Originally posted by Xarnthal

Originally posted by Alasti

Unfortunately the genre of MMO's have been dumbed down so much to please the masses that people who loved the original MMO's (not discussing MUD's right now) like UO or EQ1 etc. will probably not like any of the current games out there.

What I think games lack now is a world where exploration is a huge part of the game. Exploration involves wanting to see new things, encounter new things, and being afraid of what might be around the corner. I have not been afraid of dying in a game since the beginning of EQ1 and Ultima Online. In EQ1, you left all your stuff on your body and you had 1 week to either get it back or lose it forever...death in a dungeon became a whole new quest ("Get my body back"). Similarly in UO, when you died, your stuff remained on your corpse and anyone could come by and take your stuff (heck, even the monster who killed you took something and you had to kill him to get it back). Again, a whole new quest was just created - "GET MY CORPSE BACK." What I'm trying to say is something is missing with all these games that has taken the excitement out of playing.

I don't want this to become solely a "death penalty" discussion, as I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing, and the fact that when i die, in pretty much ANY other current game, I don't even flinch, much less panic and need to round-up my friends for a "Search for and recover Alasti's Corpse quest."

Some super-wealthy programmer (who also feels the way I do and isn't making the game to maximize profits) needs to create a game that is NOT catered to the masses and focuses on what makes games fun, even if that doesn't make as much money as it might otherwise bring in. I for one would pay $50/month for a game where this was the case (or maybe even more).

I know this is a pipe-dream, but one can always hope.

If you want PvE you're out of luck, PvE to MMO Developers means easy-mode now. If you want a PvP game with serious penalities that make the game more interesting then I suggest you jump on board the Darkfall community, perhaps support Darkfall 2.0. Maybe even Archeage, though I'm not sure how that game will go.

I'm making PvE hard, support me! I know, I know, product first. Working on it. If I ever get into alpha you will know what hard PvE is like.

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Too much focus on endgame "mini-games" in new games. The focus is now getting evey single player who subbs to endgame with as little effort as possible. Then making everything at endgame accessible to all.

You got to level caps...yay so did anyone else with a heartbeat and 2hrs a day for a month.

Use to be more about leveling community and achieving things...not achieving stuff that is handed to you on a silver platter...because then it doesnt mean anything.

Does anyone else remember reaching or getting close to level cap meant you could stand around town while people "ooh" and"ahh'ed" over you and you would just help lower levels out...because that was more or less all there was to do? You did that becuase getting there was damn hard and most wouldnt get there.

This isnt about grinding...it wasnt grinding back then it was just playing the game and enjoying it for what it was.

Now i think we are one themepark generation away from hitting 50 after your first tutorial quest then queueing for death matches, capture the flag, and cross server dungeons...all activites where you wont form any community...

Problem is anyone trying to do something diffrent neglects the basic game mechanics and delivers a poorly preforming game with non-functional combat with a list of stuff everyone wants attached or already in game...earthrise just died this death.

Indy developers: Make a game that fuctions on its basic level then make it the sandbox we all want...no one wants a sandbox where combat and stability/client preformance are on ther TBA list...but where changing seasons and terraforming work (looking at you Xyson)

Reality of it all is that we might be getting older and society is changing. Younger people live in a world of instant gratification so why would they want to think during a game? Everything is isntant now...instant info on google...no need to read the book..instant communication...list goes on. I forsee a day down the road where we all have to go over to a private hacked UO server for our fix of real mmorpg...all while dodging the new cybercrimes division of the police...for you know...not playing "world of riftcraft wars 30k" like everyone else whos "normal"

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Originally posted by Killsmallchi

THere are games out there that do this. The problem is that none of them are AAA producers, and you people dont want to support them to grow the community. If you want to complain fine, but if you want to do something about it go subscribe to someone trying to do something new or interesting. (i.e. Mortal online)

Mortal Online is neither new nor interesting. It is 2 years old and just as buggy and devoid of content as it was at launch.

Giving MO money is a terrible idea if you like sandbox games, it will just encourage more shovelware and inept implementation. The resulting reputation will kill the genre, as no one will invest - just take a look at the company behind MO, they have lost 75% of their value on the stock market.

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As many of you know by now, in the past several years, I had the opportunity to work at CCP Games, developer/publisher of EVE Online. EVE has a non-standard model for character development that solves many of the problems with both the classic leveling system and the "earn by doing" skill systems, and we're going to encapsulate some of those ideas into the Pathfinder Online design.

In EVE, characters learn skills in real time. Players need not do anything other than select a skill to train. Even when the player is logged off, the character continues to train the selected skill. Skill training only stops if a character has completed a path of training and hasn't already queued a new skill to start training immediately thereafter.

Skills in EVE often add bonuses to various activities, and are prerequisites for using a variety of in-game gear, so a character with a lot of skill points is usually very flexible, able to do a lot of different things, and able to use a lot of different gear. Yet a character with far fewer skill points can be just as good as the more skilled character in one specific area if the player focuses on training just that set of skills. This means that newer players can compete effectively with older players even though newer characters will never "catch up" in terms of total skill points trained.

There are a couple of downsides to the EVE system. First, it's pretty confusing, especially for new players. Figuring out how all the skills, bonuses, gear, and benefits interact is daunting. The system has been constantly developed for more than a decade and it is rich, deep, and complex. It rewards those who take the time to master its intricacies, but that complexity can be a barrier to entry for the player who just wants a more casual experience. Second, even if you do understand the system it can be a challenge to figure out "how to get from here to there"—that is, in what order to train skills to both maximize the value of the training and to engage in a fun way with the game while the skills are trained. There are lots of helpful advice sites that try to give some guidance in this process, but the sheer complexity of the system means there's no "right" answer for most players.

The upsides outweigh these downsides. One huge upside is that unlike almost every other MMO, your character gets better in EVE even when you're playing another game! That makes it easy to make EVE your "second" MMO, the game you play in addition to something else (like World of Warcraft). It also levels the playing field between people who can only put in a few hours a day (or a few a week), and those who can play continuously. Finally, it encourages characters to specialize, but doesn't inflict overt penalties if the player doesn't do so. No skill training is ever wasted—the worst scenario is that you wasted some time training a skill you're not going to use right away. Your character's advancement doesn't create dead ends or "worthless builds."

&...

Infinity and Traveller AR also sound awesome for that Elite/Space Sim RT-combat, when one releases and the other seems to raise the bar on iOS - with tons of possibility for EXPLORATION

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Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.

A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.

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If you want exploration to be a big part of the game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?

Death penalties that are excessively severe get annoying, especially when you die without doing anything wrong (e.g., due to lag).

The problem with paying $50/month for a game highly suited to your tastes is that it won't be highly suited to the tastes of very many other people, and certainly not enough to support the game even at $50/month.

"I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing"

What made them fun was that things that are old and mundane to you now were new and exciting then. If a game is really exciting when you first play it, you still eventually get tired of it and quit. If you play another game that is a lot like the first game, then you're most of the way to being tired of the second game the day you start it. If you had played the second game before the first, you'd have enjoyed the second game a lot more and for a lot longer. You've changed more than the games you play have changed.

People change as well in their opinions about games and game mechanics. Many were much more open minded about it when UO/EQ released and just played the games for the fun of it. Over times, that openness changed into lists of things I hate in any game. That changes the players view on games.

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It had been 18 months since I played vanguard and it was great seeing my old level 50 sorcerer sitting there waiting for me.

Now I had a beast of a computer with a 2560x1440 monitor and a GTX 590.I maxed out all the settings and was happy with what I saw.

I went to some really low level mobs to get used to all my skills again and today I headed off to lvl 50 -55 area.

I had forgot all about the countering and mirroring of incoming spells. It was tough and challenging to react so fast to them. Total contrast to SWTOR and yeah I died several times and had to race back looking for my tombstone and you know what I loved it.I was finally really enjoying the fact each time I went for a 4 dotter I could die if I didn't get a crit or two.It felt rewarding overcoming a tough mob.

I just need to find a new guild to join now.

Maybe going free to play could really resurrect this gem of a game.

The population is low but looking at the forums there seems to be more and more people joining everyday.

If people want an old style hardcore MMO then it's here waiting to be explored.

I really don't like the new starter island they have.I much prefer the old racial area's like Martok for example.If you start at the starter island with a toon then I think alts can then choose starter island or racial area start.My pick is the racial area's.

Otherwise guys we have to hope EQ Next will be hardcore ....

Vangaurd is a steaming pile. Great that you and a few others like it but that game had it's one and only shot in the market and if failed. End of story.

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Im glad MMO's aren't like they used to be... I don't want to spend hours getting my corpse back or spending acouple hours traveling to a new loctation. It was fun when I was younger and had time to spare, but nowadays I get on a few hours a week and just want to play and have alittle fun.

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Originally posted by waynejr2

joining everyday.

If people want an old style hardcore MMO then it's here waiting to be explored.

old style hardcore MMO eh? Is it hardcore because no one plays and you'll have to solo a bunch of group content? I played vanguard for a couple of months way back when, and while its a decent game I think calling it an old school hardcore game is a BIT much...

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Originally posted by Alasti

Unfortunately the genre of MMO's have been dumbed down so much to please the masses that people who loved the original MMO's (not discussing MUD's right now) like UO or EQ1 etc. will probably not like any of the current games out there.

What I think games lack now is a world where exploration(Vanguard) is a huge part of the game. Exploration involves wanting to see new things, encounter new things, and being afraid of what might be around the corner(Vanguard) I have not been afraid of dying in a game since the beginning of EQ1 and Ultima Online. In EQ1, you left all your stuff on your body and you had 1 week to either get it back or lose it forever...death in a dungeon became a whole new quest ("Get my body back"). Similarly in UO, when you died, your stuff remained on your corpse and anyone could come by and take your stuff (heck, even the monster who killed you took something and you had to kill him to get it back). Again, a whole new quest was just created - "GET MY CORPSE BACK." What I'm trying to say is something is missing with all these games that has taken the excitement out of playing.

Vanguards death penalty is not as steep as EQ but compared to WOW/AOC/RIFT/EQ2/SWTOR/TERA/GE2 and many more,it's steep.You lose xp and instead of actully going down a level you just go up in the red.The further you go up in level in red the more you have to gain that xp back before you can start xping in the yellow.

Vanguard really does give you that"i care if i die feeling"

I don't want this to become solely a "death penalty" discussion, as I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing, and the fact that when i die, in pretty much ANY other current game, I don't even flinch, much less panic and need to round-up my friends for a "Search for and recover Alasti's Corpse quest."

Some super-wealthy programmer (who also feels the way I do and isn't making the game to maximize profits) needs to create a game that is NOT catered to the masses and focuses on what makes games fun, even if that doesn't make as much money as it might otherwise bring in. I for one would pay $50/month for a game where this was the case (or maybe even more).

I know this is a pipe-dream, but one can always hope.

Vanguard is the closet you will come to EQ1 in MMOs today,eq2 is far away from EQ1 even though it's meant to be set in the same world.I guess Luclin blowing up glued all the zones together in EQ2.

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Originally posted by uohaloran

Info and data collection websites have ruined the exploration part, I think. Even EQ and UO had fansites, but we were still crawling out of the dial-up dark ages, so information, while still readily avaliable, took a lot longer to gather and read about.

Without severely removing components such as maps, tool-tips, and stuff, you're going to have a hard time getting exploration back to what it used to be.

Fan wikis will slowly crop up and one will take hold. Players will start dumping all of their knowledge into one spot and the game will end up like what we have today; people ping ponging from each "best" spot to another. Info will naturally spread through the multiple forms of communication players use now for games (Steam, Xfire, game-wide chat systems, voice chat, etc.). The issue lies on the user's end now, because you're willingly removing the veil of mystique that made a lot of olders games so enjoyable on the exploration front.

If we stop using all of these external tools avaliable to us, stop reading global chat channels, and get back to just enjoying the game (almost roleplaying, to an extent), you'd find a lot of what we did have is still there (it's just hidden), but it's not something the developers can readily fix. That's why developers are rolling with the punches and just making games that best suit the can't-figure-quest-out-just-look-it-up syndrome.

How about incorporating self control and just not looking at such sites?

It's just like these Primo Strategy Guides they have with nearly every new hot console games release. People buy them when they buy the game...use them religiously...then complain their is no challenge to the game and it went by too fast. Which in all actuality...is mostly due to them using the guide. I never use these things unless I had been absolutely stuck for a week ro so on a particular area (Which is still rare). I know the potential is there to look it up and continue on with what the next part was faster...but it's not a race, and the challenge of figuring things out yourself increases the gratification in the end.

That is what those sites were meant for, as well as the strategy guides...but players now use them almost exclusively to get to that item, or zone, or quest faster than the next guy so they can boast first. Weird and sad times we live in these days in the gaming world.

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Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.

A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.

It's fairly detrimental to you...and whoever else may hold your opinions. But to others, it is not. It's called a difference in tastes, and I am sure there are many more have a taste for penalties than you think, and due to their own morals, personalities, etc, more suits what makes it fun to them than it does for you. And believe it or not, these people are entitled to games that suit their tastes too.

Problem is people like you who CONSTANTLY infest every thread expressing your deep rooted hatred for anything that doesn't allow you to be God-like and get everythng for practically nothing.

He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun. More so than being able to close your eyes and randomly run along slicing through dozens of mobs with little effort. MMO's now are like playing Eddie in Tekken 3...where you can stick your face on the floor and mash buttons and win without really having a grasp on the character. Or like any sport now for youth. Now, even the losing team gets a trophy. What does that teach? Other than you can fail and still be rewarded without having to really put forth effort to get better in order to win.

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Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.

A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.

He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun.

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So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?

At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.

Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...