Dechen Norbu wrote:Of course. I read that manual too. That's why I said putting a pair of shades in Tara would be going too far. Ornaments have a goal. And they don't spoil the visualization either. Most are pretty cool in fact, even the weirder ones.One can and should give life to visualizations and, if possible, do a better job than artists did in their thangkas. I believe a similar comment was recorded in a video or something too. Can't say which one though.No worries about giving deities a better (or fiercer if that's the case) look. They must look alive and the intended visualization should match the description. So if, for instance, a certain visualization is supposed to arouse you, or if a deity is young and beautiful, I'm sure the kind of traditional depictions won't serve that purpose. The same goes for wrathful manifestations and so on. Just keep common sense and know when one is already deviating and practice becomes noneffective.

Anyway, I recently read a really neat entry on Tsem Rinpoche's blog of a rare form Manjushri statue that he had just received from a very sincere student. It's a rare form of Manjushri statue that he had dreamt of many years ago but he could not find information about it anywhere and not even from his Gurus. Anyway, he found an image of this form of Manjushri in a book and he excitedly showed his Gurus. They told him that it is possible that this form of Manjushri exists because Manjushri has thousands of emanations. So, he commissioned an artist to paint this Manjushri, which he eventually gave to a student. Recent, a student commissioned a very special statue for Rinpoche and pictures of it was posted on the blog, which he dubbed Dream Manjushri.

Steveyboy why do always start posts with 'I saw a nice entry on Tsem Tulku's blog........' Is it that you think you should do a bit of promotional work here? Pretty much every other post mentions Tsem Tulku. There have been a few posters here who are his students and they do the promotional thing as well. It's a bit sad in my opinion.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:Steveyboy why do always start posts with 'I saw a nice entry on Tsem Tulku's blog........' Is it that you think you should do a bit of promotional work here? Pretty much every other post mentions Tsem Tulku. There have been a few posters here who are his students and they do the promotional thing as well. It's a bit sad in my opinion.

Well Andrew, I think I have to quote the source of where I got my information from right? I usually prefer to quote from a valid source instead of just making up empty statements and Yeah, sometimes I do promote some of the more interesting posts that I fancy.I am surprise students of other Lamas don't quote their Lamas more. Perhaps, they don't have an online resource for that.

Steveyboy wrote:Anyway, I recently read a really neat entry on Tsem Rinpoche's blog of a rare form Manjushri statue that he had just received from a very sincere student. It's a rare form of Manjushri statue that he had dreamt of many years ago but he could not find information about it anywhere and not even from his Gurus.

Your post reminds me of something Joseph Campbell said about myth (in the sense of metaphysical religious belief, not implying truth/untruth) - that it is on the same exact level as dream. To him, this is related to why mythological images are "affect images", in that they hit you on a much deeper level than just pure logic. I should probably remember this when approaching the Buddhas, Boddhisattvas, and Deities in Buddhism.

As an aside, I mention Joseph Campbell a lot. I like the guy because what he said resonates with me and I know I butcher his teachings in my feeble attempts at repeating them. Like you, I mention him to establish where I got my info and to maybe give readers a pointer for where to go if they want to learn more. Campbell's dead; he and I have nothing to gain from mentioning him, it's not a form a "cheap promotion." I figure you're the same. While I'm not a huge fan of Tsem Rinpoche's videos, I think he'd be a cool guy to drink tea & talk dharma with, and I sincerely hope his health improves.

Andrew108 wrote:Steveyboy why do always start posts with 'I saw a nice entry on Tsem Tulku's blog........' Is it that you think you should do a bit of promotional work here? Pretty much every other post mentions Tsem Tulku. There have been a few posters here who are his students and they do the promotional thing as well. It's a bit sad in my opinion.

Well Andrew, I think I have to quote the source of where I got my information from right? I usually prefer to quote from a valid source instead of just making up empty statements and Yeah, sometimes I do promote some of the more interesting posts that I fancy.I am surprise students of other Lamas don't quote their Lamas more. Perhaps, they don't have an online resource for that.

People don't quote their lamas more because they don't want to turn Dharma Wheel into a spiritual marketplace. Imagine if everyone just replied to each other quoting what their lama has said? How childish is that? This forum is about what you and I think. It's not a place where we put on show the perceived wisdom of our teachers.I consider what you and Waimengwan are doing as being very close to spamming. I know others will disagree with this and they think that you can use this forum to promote Tsem Tulku. I know for instance that Waimengwan works for Tsem Tulku. I find your constant promotion of Kechera and Tsem Tulku a bit creepy and cultish. I would welcome chance to discuss Dharma with you where neither of us referenced our teachers. Let me say one more thing. When we die its our experience and deep understanding of dharma that counts. We won't be able to link to a blog or teaching to get us through. So we have to stand on our own two feet and really trust the meaning of what we have experienced. It might be good for you to talk and debate dharma issues without holding on to your teachers hand. The spamming you are doing reminds me of the NKT in the 90's.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:Steveyboy why do always start posts with 'I saw a nice entry on Tsem Tulku's blog........' Is it that you think you should do a bit of promotional work here? Pretty much every other post mentions Tsem Tulku. There have been a few posters here who are his students and they do the promotional thing as well. It's a bit sad in my opinion.

Well Andrew, I think I have to quote the source of where I got my information from right? I usually prefer to quote from a valid source instead of just making up empty statements and Yeah, sometimes I do promote some of the more interesting posts that I fancy.I am surprise students of other Lamas don't quote their Lamas more. Perhaps, they don't have an online resource for that.

People don't quote their lamas more because they don't want to turn Dharma Wheel into a spiritual marketplace. Imagine if everyone just replied to each other quoting what their lama has said? How childish is that? This forum is about what you and I think. It's not a place where we put on show the perceived wisdom of our teachers.I consider what you and Waimengwan are doing as being very close to spamming. I know others will disagree with this and they think that you can use this forum to promote Tsem Tulku. I know for instance that Waimengwan works for Tsem Tulku. I find your constant promotion of Kechera and Tsem Tulku a bit creepy and cultish. I would welcome chance to discuss Dharma with you where neither of us referenced our teachers. Let me say one more thing. When we die its our experience and deep understanding of dharma that counts. We won't be able to link to a blog or teaching to get us through. So we have to stand on our own two feet and really trust the meaning of what we have experienced. It might be good for you to talk and debate dharma issues without holding on to your teachers hand. The spamming you are doing reminds me of the NKT in the 90's.

Whats up with the susceptibility? I dont see whats the problem with him quoating tsem tulku as long as he stays on the topic of the thread. Your post on the other hand doesnt talk about deitys at all.

Last night my lama talk about deity yoga in a very detail way. I wish i could remember it well but i think i might screw it up if a post it here . Maybe ill ask him again and take some notes to discuse it here.

It's funny, while I think Steve Jobs wasn't the best example of a human being - for discontinuing Apple's charity projects, I do recognize the fruits of his efforts. I am able to listen to HH the Dalai Lama teach me about Lam Rim and audiobooks of the Nikaya Sutras on my iPod as I drive into work in the morning. I also use my macbook for a lot of my Dharma research. I hope he's receiving the merit somewhere out there for the work he's done in helping people study the Dharma.

The Gelug Section would be pretty much dead here without Tsem Rinpoches dedicated students, I'll never understand why some people have to be continually negative about others sincerely trying to stimulate Dharma discussions.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Caz,In some cases there have been efforts to stimulate dharma discussions. Steveyboy's post in this particular thread was very much on-topic. However, there have been other postings of for example a book promotional blurb with a huge photo of Rinpoche and perhaps 4 lines of text underneath.That is not stimulating discussion, which is why I expressed my frustration at this and requested Stevey to post some segments from the book so we could have an actual discussion. Once he did that, there were a few pages of fruitful discussion.I would love to advertise for Geshe Sonam's teachings in many threads. As his translator maybe perhaps it is even my duty to promote him. But I would not do it outside the context of the books/events forums.The primary motivation here should be to discuss essential points of Gelug doctrine and practice. Sometimes the posts of TR's students do that. But there are many other cases where they do not.My teachers tend to be lower key as well but I don't know maybe since this is the digital age I should recommend more PR on the web, though somehow I wouldn't feel right about it.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

JKhedrup wrote:Caz,In some cases there have been efforts to stimulate dharma discussions. Steveyboy's post in this particular thread was very much on-topic. However, there have been other postings of for example a book promotional blurb with a huge photo of Rinpoche and perhaps 4 lines of text underneath.That is not stimulating discussion, which is why I expressed my frustration at this and requested Stevey to post some segments from the book so we could have an actual discussion. Once he did that, there were a few pages of fruitful discussion.I would love to advertise for Geshe Sonam's teachings in many threads. As his translator maybe perhaps it is even my duty to promote him. But I would not do it outside the context of the books/events forums.The primary motivation here should be to discuss essential points of Gelug doctrine and practice. Sometimes the posts of TR's students do that. But there are many other cases where they do not.My teachers tend to be lower key as well but I don't know maybe since this is the digital age I should recommend more PR on the web, though somehow I wouldn't feel right about it.

If no one says anything about the works their teachers do no one will know anything will they ? Id very much like to hear the good qualities of Geshe Sonam.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

If you had to ask me which of my teachers was the most kind, the answer would be difficult. But the one from whom I have learned the most, and has the patience to bear my faults, is definitely Geshe Sonam. I have never heard him advertise his qualities, contend with others, or seek his own advantage in situations. The translator in Italy told me he is like an old Kadampa master, quiet and tamed, delivering a pure, unadulterated dharma of true integrity. His humility is the quality that people tell me moves them the most.

Whether it is the rabbit that we rescued while in Germany, the countless babies who approach Geshe-la in trains and supermarkets wanting to be held, he gives equal attention to those both large and small, with equanimity.

Sometimes I have to pinch myself.... I get to work with this kind of lama on a daily basis? Me??? I would have never thought I would be so fortunate and try to treasure every minute.

Any more than this and Geshe la would be perhaps be not so impressed. I do have transcripts and things of his teachings. Those that are not copyrighted I can send when requested. I am posting the links below because they have pictures, quotes of Geshe la, but if I ever do decide to do publicity of his teachings I will do it in the events thread.

Geshe Sonam Ngodup was born in Kardze, Kham in 1968. From a young age he learned to read and write through looking at scriptures with his uncle at a monastery nearby his home. At the age of 13 he left andundertook the journey to India to begin his formal monastic educationand entered Sera Jey Monastery. Subsequently he received his vows of novice and full ordinationfrom His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Studying with esteemed teachers including his uncle Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Delek, he eventually entered the Lharampa Geshe class, and graduated in the top three of his year from amongst all the Geshes of Sera, Drepung and Ganden. After completing his studies at Sera, Geshe Sonam completed a year at Gyume Tantric College, where he study the philosophy and rituals of tantra. Eventually returning to Sera Je, Geshe Sonam became a scripture teacher (petri gegan), one of a handful of Geshes officially selected for this role by the monastery. One of the most popular of the young teaching Geshes in Sera , he is well loved by his many students to whom he teaches a broad variety of topics. Geshe Sonam has taught extensively at Nalanda Monastery in France on several occasions, most recently for a year. Geshe la explained a wide variety of topics, including several modules of the Basic Program and a nightly class on the Lam Rim and Bodhisattva's Deeds. A very well-loved teacher, Geshe-la is known for his warmth, accessibility and modest conduct.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

If you had to ask me which of my teachers was the most kind, the answer would be difficult. But the one from whom I have learned the most, and has the patience to bear my faults, is definitely Geshe Sonam. I have never heard him advertise his qualities, contend with others, or seek his own advantage in situations. The translator in Italy told me he is like an old Kadampa master, quiet and tamed, delivering a pure, unadulterated dharma of true integrity. His humility is the quality that people tell me moves them the most.

Whether it is the rabbit that we rescued while in Germany, the countless babies who approach Geshe-la in trains and supermarkets wanting to be held, he gives equal attention to those both large and small, with equanimity.

Sometimes I have to pinch myself.... I get to work with this kind of lama on a daily basis? Me??? I would have never thought I would be so fortunate and try to treasure every minute.

Any more than this and Geshe la would be perhaps be not so impressed. I do have transcripts and things of his teachings. Those that are not copyrighted I can send when requested. I am posting the links below because they have pictures, quotes of Geshe la, but if I ever do decide to do publicity of his teachings I will do it in the events thread.

Geshe Sonam Ngodup was born in Kardze, Kham in 1968. From a young age he learned to read and write through looking at scriptures with his uncle at a monastery nearby his home. At the age of 13 he left andundertook the journey to India to begin his formal monastic educationand entered Sera Jey Monastery. Subsequently he received his vows of novice and full ordinationfrom His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Studying with esteemed teachers including his uncle Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Delek, he eventually entered the Lharampa Geshe class, and graduated in the top three of his year from amongst all the Geshes of Sera, Drepung and Ganden. After completing his studies at Sera, Geshe Sonam completed a year at Gyume Tantric College, where he study the philosophy and rituals of tantra. Eventually returning to Sera Je, Geshe Sonam became a scripture teacher (petri gegan), one of a handful of Geshes officially selected for this role by the monastery. One of the most popular of the young teaching Geshes in Sera , he is well loved by his many students to whom he teaches a broad variety of topics. Geshe Sonam has taught extensively at Nalanda Monastery in France on several occasions, most recently for a year. Geshe la explained a wide variety of topics, including several modules of the Basic Program and a nightly class on the Lam Rim and Bodhisattva's Deeds. A very well-loved teacher, Geshe-la is known for his warmth, accessibility and modest conduct.

Thats wonderful

You should certainly do more to help him spread Buddhadharma by sharing his teachings more frequently

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

JKhedrup wrote:Caz,In some cases there have been efforts to stimulate dharma discussions. Steveyboy's post in this particular thread was very much on-topic. However, there have been other postings of for example a book promotional blurb with a huge photo of Rinpoche and perhaps 4 lines of text underneath.That is not stimulating discussion, which is why I expressed my frustration at this and requested Stevey to post some segments from the book so we could have an actual discussion. Once he did that, there were a few pages of fruitful discussion.I would love to advertise for Geshe Sonam's teachings in many threads. As his translator maybe perhaps it is even my duty to promote him. But I would not do it outside the context of the books/events forums.The primary motivation here should be to discuss essential points of Gelug doctrine and practice. Sometimes the posts of TR's students do that. But there are many other cases where they do not.My teachers tend to be lower key as well but I don't know maybe since this is the digital age I should recommend more PR on the web, though somehow I wouldn't feel right about it.

If no one says anything about the works their teachers do no one will know anything will they ? Id very much like to hear the good qualities of Geshe Sonam.

Thank you Caz, you understand my intentions along with many others here very well. I am not the perfect student but I do appreciate my Lama's teachings and I think that they will benefit someone out there since it has benefited me. I may not always present the teachings in the light that encourages discussion as different people have different ideas of what interests them. I think that doesn't matter as long as it will help somebody. I feel that many people here usually like to discuss philosophical Dharma which is good but there are other more practical aspects of Dharma that can be discussed too. I know that the Buddha said that people can pick and choose the teachings but I think that should apply to people who are new to Buddhism. Once we have taken refuge, we should accept or the very least respect all forms of Buddhist practice and not criticize and call a practice superstitious. I think that's very nice.

I don't think anyone used the word superstitious.I just want to make sure that postings contain enough material for us to discuss, whether philosophical or daily life dharma is not so important. What is important is to somehow make the promotions relevant to stimulating discussion.So, for example, Tsem Rinpoche's teachings could be presented according to a topic or excerpts could be posted for discussion. I don't think that the huge photo with the blurb does that, but that is just my opinion.From what I have seen, Wai Meng and others here have understood the sensitivities of some users and are now trying to post in a way that is less like publicity. This is good for all of us in the end, and also good for TR's students, who would benefit from more people participating in the threads.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

JKhedrup wrote:Caz,In some cases there have been efforts to stimulate dharma discussions. Steveyboy's post in this particular thread was very much on-topic. However, there have been other postings of for example a book promotional blurb with a huge photo of Rinpoche and perhaps 4 lines of text underneath.That is not stimulating discussion, which is why I expressed my frustration at this and requested Stevey to post some segments from the book so we could have an actual discussion. Once he did that, there were a few pages of fruitful discussion.I would love to advertise for Geshe Sonam's teachings in many threads. As his translator maybe perhaps it is even my duty to promote him. But I would not do it outside the context of the books/events forums.The primary motivation here should be to discuss essential points of Gelug doctrine and practice. Sometimes the posts of TR's students do that. But there are many other cases where they do not.My teachers tend to be lower key as well but I don't know maybe since this is the digital age I should recommend more PR on the web, though somehow I wouldn't feel right about it.

If no one says anything about the works their teachers do no one will know anything will they ? Id very much like to hear the good qualities of Geshe Sonam.

Thank you Caz, you understand my intentions along with many others here very well. I am not the perfect student but I do appreciate my Lama's teachings and I think that they will benefit someone out there since it has benefited me. I may not always present the teachings in the light that encourages discussion as different people have different ideas of what interests them. I think that doesn't matter as long as it will help somebody. I feel that many people here usually like to discuss philosophical Dharma which is good but there are other more practical aspects of Dharma that can be discussed too. I know that the Buddha said that people can pick and choose the teachings but I think that should apply to people who are new to Buddhism. Once we have taken refuge, we should accept or the very least respect all forms of Buddhist practice and not criticize and call a practice superstitious. I think that's very nice.

I have great respect for Tsem Rinpoche he is one of my favourite Lama's after my own.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

JKhedrup wrote:I don't think anyone used the word superstitious.I just want to make sure that postings contain enough material for us to discuss, whether philosophical or daily life dharma is not so important. What is important is to somehow make the promotions relevant to stimulating discussion.So, for example, Tsem Rinpoche's teachings could be presented according to a topic or excerpts could be posted for discussion. I don't think that the huge photo with the blurb does that, but that is just my opinion.From what I have seen, Wai Meng and others here have understood the sensitivities of some users and are now trying to post in a way that is less like publicity. This is good for all of us in the end, and also good for TR's students, who would benefit from more people participating in the threads.

Yes, someone did use that word but that word is not my point. It is that people often judge and make assumptions of what we can or cannot post here. With all due respect, I think it is fine whatever I post because I am only posting what inspires me. Yes, what inspires me may not inspire you but that's my prerogative right? As long as it is within the context of Buddhadharma, I think I should be able to post whatever as I think it is bound to benefit someone out there. I don't think everyone that comes to this forum also stay to comment. Some people are just here to glean information or to read whatever that they find interesting. Anyway, thank you for your feedback.

beautiful breath wrote:Hi, can someone tell me how Deities exist? A blunt question but after man y years studying in the Tibetan Tradition I still struggle with how some can speak of Deities as if they have an independent existence - then in the next breath explain how they're as empty as anything else.

My experience of phenomena is that conventional truths appear to my mind and are valid appearances. I have no such experience of Deities other than a Generic image that I liken to the ones I have of Tolkien characters. PLEASE don't be offended by that statement its meant literal not glib.

BB...

The pantheon of deities exists because they represent the practitioners of the distant past have realized Buddhahood and manifests in these forms to benefit sentient beings. According to the King of Prayers, one of the abilities of the Buddha is the 'Power of Magical Emanation' and that means the Buddhas can manifest in countless forms simultaneously to benefit us. Many of the pantheon of Buddhas like Manjushri, Chenrezig, Tara and so forth have appeared to yogis and great masters of the past and they have recorded it down as sadhanas so we can propitiate them for a particular result or blessing. Their appearance is not arbitrary and when visualized correctly, it will have a certain blessing/effect upon our mind. I hope this little explanation answered your question.

Why is it that when we visualized them,it will have a certain blessing upon our mind?what if we visualized our friends or video game characters or others?. ..Does it have any effect?. ..