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it is the people that never train but just think all they have to do is put it in their pocket should not be carrying

I disagree. Defending yourself is a right. The founders of this country believed it to be a right given by god and so affirmed the right in the 2A.

People have to live with that. You can start qualifying and conditioning that right but you would be wrong. The training arguement is no more valid than all the other obsurd restrictions.... You can defend your self BUUUUTTT.... Not with a gun that holds more than 10 rounds, not with a gun with a removable magazine, not with a rifle whose barrel is shorter than 16", not with a gun that has a removable muzzle device, not with bullets deemed "cop killers", not if jamieg doesn't find your common sense up to par, not if you don't have regularly scheduled training....

Everyman has the right to defend.

"I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

I disagree. Defending yourself is a right. The founders of this country believed it to be a right given by god and so affirmed the right in the 2A.

People have to live with that. You can start qualifying and conditioning that right but you would be wrong. The training arguement is no more valid than all the other obsurd restrictions.... You can defend your self BUUUUTTT.... Not with a gun that holds more than 10 rounds, not with a gun with a removable magazine, not with a rifle whose barrel is shorter than 16", not with a gun that has a removable muzzle device, not with bullets deemed "cop killers", not if jamieg doesn't find your common sense up to par, not if you don't have regularly scheduled training....

Predators tend to avoid attacking targets that are likely to fight back. There are exceptions to the rule, but the overwhelming majority of criminals will target small people, people who convey a lack of confidence, people who are not paying attention, sick people, old people, handicapped people, and women.

An openly carried firearm, combined with confidence and situational awareness, is likely to keep you from
becoming a target.

I think it makes you less of a target in every day situations. BG's want an easy target, and a person carrying a firearm is not an easy target. I think the only time OC'ing would make you a target better target than anyone else is in a mass shooting situation. However, I think most mass shooters choose gun free zones, not the grocery store, park, or another place you might be. I will continue to OC until statistically proven that open carry makes me a better target.

I think it makes you less of a target in every day situations. BG's want an easy target, and a person carrying a firearm is not an easy target. I think the only time OC'ing would make you a target better target than anyone else is in a mass shooting situation. However, I think most mass shooters choose gun free zones, not the grocery store, park, or another place you might be. I will continue to OC until statistically proven that open carry makes me a better target.

Cite please on where an OCer has ever been preemptively targeted in a mass shooting event. Actually not necessary as I already know the answer - you can't cite what hasn't happened.

Even an alleged test/study was a set up failure as the bad guy expert had advance knowledge of where the defensive gun was, rather than going in with no information and tunnel vision.

On Saturday July 11, 2009 a violent criminal walked into Golden Food Market in Richmond, VA and immediately opened fire on the store clerk without warning. One of the customers in the store was openly carrying a single-action Colt .45; he shot the criminal in the stomach, saving at least six or seven lives.

In this video VCDL President Philip Van Cleave talks about his exclusive interview with the peaceably armed citizen who intervened and saved many lives that day.

More or less of a target

Ill be doing both. Conceal and carry and also open carry. Quite frankly, it's my choice and whether someone thinks it makes me more of a target....just doesn't matter to me. I take responsibility for my decisions. And this is my decision. Period.

Ill be doing both. Conceal and carry and also open carry. Quite frankly, it's my choice and whether someone thinks it makes me more of a target....just doesn't matter to me. I take responsibility for my decisions. And this is my decision. Period.

My thoughts exactly, if a person does not like my choices they might as well talk to themselves in the mirror, then they might have some control. My usual response when it comes to telling me what, how, where, and when is "bugger off".

This society would have a lot less problems if people would only worry about one person.

It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.

Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson

What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.

I think it all depends on the situation and the criminal at hand. Is he your average thief trying to hold up a gas-n-go? I think if he sees your gun he will think twice more than likely. Yet if it is someone that simply doesn't care about killing someone then yes I believe he will shoot you first simply because you are the first threat he sees.

I also think it depends on where you are geographically. Inner city, your probably shot first. Small town America probably not.

I pretty much agree with this post.

Also, let's not forget about gun grabs. I just read about a recent one today that happened to an OC person. Luckily someone near by helped the OC person out and the bad guy gave up and ran away.

I think it all depends on the situation and the criminal at hand. Is he your average thief trying to hold up a gas-n-go? I think if he sees your gun he will think twice more than likely. Yet if it is someone that simply doesn't care about killing someone then yes I believe he will shoot you first simply because you are the first threat he sees.

I also think it depends on where you are geographically. Inner city, your probably shot first. Small town America probably not.

Originally Posted by ScottE

I pretty much agree with this post.

Also, let's not forget about gun grabs. I just read about a recent one today that happened to an OC person. Luckily someone near by helped the OC person out and the bad guy gave up and ran away.

Perpetuating myths, urban legends and falsehoods doesn't make them true. There are two such that have become particularly offensive to LAC who responsibly OC. These are that the OCer will be preemptively taken out by a BG and that you will only have your gun taken from you. Both have been sufficiently debunked countless times/repeatedly. We have even come up with an illustrative mathematical expression of the odds of either happening = .00001%.

We speak to facts here, not I heard of it somewhere from somebody. The forum rules do address this. Credible user/posters understand, subscribe and adhere to this.

You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

Based solely on anecdotal evidence, quite a bit of anecdotal evidence by the way, OC is only a target for LE.

The only time someone has removed my firearm from my holster without my consent was a LEO. He illegally held on to it for about two hours and "ran" it, also illegally.

It wasn't a grab. He asked if he could take it. I said no. He informed me that he was going to take it. I told him that I did not consent, but that I would not resist his seizing my firearm. I suggested that the safest way would be to remove the entire holster, which he did.

I had a similar experience, the LEO (a newbie not quite up to speed on the law) "requested" to disarm me, I respectfully declined (I used your verbiage related to me by you in another thread many moons ago when still new to OCDO.....my apologies for the belated thanks). His partner (a veteran who knows the law) recommended to the LEO that I retain my firearm for the safety of all as long as my hands remained clear of my firearm. I asked if I were permitted to have my elbow rest against my firearm and the LEO got a quizzical look and the veteran waited about 10 seconds, shook his head and said that would be fine.

I provided my CCW endorsement as required by city code to "permit" OC (it's a Missouri thing) and was on my way, two minutes tops. The veteran cop thanked me for my cooperation turned and walked away, the LEO started to lecture but was interrupted by the veteran regarding another matter.

No harm no foul.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.

It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

Perpetuating myths, urban legends and falsehoods doesn't make them true. There are two such that have become particularly offensive to LAC who responsibly OC. These are that the OCer will be preemptively taken out by a BG and that you will only have your gun taken from you. Both have been sufficiently debunked countless times/repeatedly. We have even come up with an illustrative mathematical expression of the odds of either happening = .00001%.

We speak to facts here, not I heard of it somewhere from somebody. The forum rules do address this. Credible user/posters understand, subscribe and adhere to this.

I provided a link to the article. It won't matter though. You'll still deny that it happened.

I provided a link to the article. It won't matter though. You'll still deny that it happened.

Wow. That was presumptive. I know that he will not deny it. He'll check it out and likely conclude that the incident is real. He will then surely point out that this one incident out of millions of carries (likely billions) is strong support for the contention that gun-grabs are a non-concern except that we should have retention systems for our OCed firearm and always maintain situational awareness.

Re: Do you think open carrying makes you more or less of a target?

Originally Posted by ScottE

I provided a link to the article. It won't matter though. You'll still deny that it happened.

So... one instance proves a pattern? You may want to take a refresher on basic math. Statistically, OC does not make you a target. Plain and simple. Why is it that you feel the need to join an OC focused forum, and then bash the practice? How about you mind you own business if you have nothing helpful to contribute.

As my Great Grandmother used to say between scotchs and whoopins, "If you can't say anything nice, then shut your damned trap!". God rest her Irish Catholic soul :beer:

So... one instance proves a pattern? You may want to take a refresher on basic math. Statistically, OC does not make you a target. Plain and simple. Why is it that you feel the need to join an OC focused forum, and then bash the practice? How about you mind you own business if you have nothing helpful to contribute.

As my Great Grandmother used to say between scotchs and whoopins, "If you can't say anything nice, then shut your damned trap!". God rest her Irish Catholic soul :beer:

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

I never said it proves a pattern. But lets not all pretend this is the only gun grab on an OC'er that's ever happened. And no, I'm not going to google for you and provide you links to every single incident ever.

Statistically you'll never find yourself in a gun fight, yet you still carry right? So if you believe in the chance that some day you may need to draw your weapon, why wouldn't you believe in the chance that some day someone my try to grab your openly carried gun.

Lastly, does this forum not accept opposing views? I'm not here to troll people, just have open (no pun intended) and honest conversation.

Well, this rational person insisted my claim was a myth, an urban legend, and a falsehood. Basically called me a liar.

No, he did not. He bemoaned the perpetuation of such myths, and was correct to do so--and still is. As he pointed out in his post, isolated instances of gun-grabs out of millions of instances of OC mean that gun-grabs are unlikely. Using them as a reason not to OC IS perpetuating a myth, specifically the myth that OC puts one at significant risk of a gun-grab.

We deal with FACTS on this site. We routinely ask that contentions be supported (and thank you for the support of your contention of a single gun-grab). We bust myths left and right. None of that is calling one a liar. I would submit that saying GS called you a liar is, itself, a l....well the statement is untrue.

GS is one of the most rational and respected posters around here. You would do well to apologize and establish a ration-based relationship with him.

Originally Posted by ScottE

...But lets not all pretend this is the only gun grab on an OC'er that's ever happened. And no, I'm not going to google for you and provide you links to every single incident ever...

If you try to google it you will find two, maybe three. There are only two that I know of that have been confirmed--and we have spent years looking for them. If you choose not to google it, then scan this site. You'll see the gun-grab myth busted again and again. Apart from hugely isolated instances, it really does not happen.

No, he did not. He bemoaned the perpetuation of such myths, and was correct to do so--and still is. As he pointed out in his post, isolated instances of gun-grabs out of millions of instances of OC mean that gun-grabs are unlikely. Using them as a reason not to OC IS perpetuating a myth, specifically the myth that OC puts one at significant risk of a gun-grab.

We deal with FACTS on this site. We routinely ask that contentions be supported (and thank you for the support of your contention of a single gun-grab). We bust myths left and right. None of that is calling one a liar. I would submit that saying GS called you a liar is, itself, a l....well the statement is untrue.

GS is one of the most rational and respected posters around here. You would do well to apologize and establish a ration-based relationship with him.

Moving on.

The point is though, is that it is not a myth. It does happen. There are even classes that teach gun grab prevention and grappling - why? Because it happens. Even after I provided a link, you still make statements like, we deal with facts on this site. Good, then please deal with the fact that I provided you a valid report of a gun grab. The reason there aren't a lot more OC gun grabs is because to be honest, there are that many people that OC compared to CC. Hell most people with permits don't even carry on a daily basis. I know like 6 people with permits and only one actually carries, and she carries in her purse.

BTW - There are not millions of people in this country that OC - sorry, that is a fact. If you can provide a link with stats that show the number of people in this country that OC daily, please do, I would find it interesting.