(22-07-2015 12:28 PM)Melanie Wrote: No, he's absolutely right. We are free to choose. To say that some people are born evil or psychopathic mitigates the individual's capacity of free will. Because if they were born without the ability to love or care, that cancels the whole point of love being a choice. It also means that the faulty wiring of the brain is the primary cause of one's personality and not their own plain and simple voluntary actions. And in that light, people are NOT responsible for their thoughts and feelings, which upon deeper perspective, also mitigates free will. It also contradicts the fact that personality traits are entirely voluntary. People can choose to be empathetic, compassionate, caring and to abide by their consciences or not. Science is also gradually discovering this fact.

You may not like the implications of something but that doesn't mean it is not correct. Things aren't facts because you'd prefer it that way.

You also jump from "some people" to all people without recognizing that some people may actually have "faulty wiring" and be unable to choose even to the extent that "normal" people can.

Also, Melanie made a definitive statement by saying "we are free to choose" which means no other methods of explanation can be made that would counter that statement (enter black swan theory).

We know this is not the case, there are other possibilities of explanation in the realm of determinism, compatibolism and their respective sub-categories. Now, each of those potential alternative hypotheses may have their own problems but that's what everyone has to work through.

(22-07-2015 12:28 PM)Melanie Wrote: No, he's absolutely right. We are free to choose. To say that some people are born evil or psychopathic mitigates the individual's capacity of free will.

And to say that there is no god robs life from purpose? But seriously so what? You don't liking something does not make it less true.

(22-07-2015 12:28 PM)Melanie Wrote: Because if they were born without the ability to love or care, that cancels the whole point of love being a choice. It also means that the faulty wiring of the brain is the primary cause of one's personality and not their own plain and simple voluntary actions. And in that light, people are NOT responsible for their thoughts and feelings, which upon deeper perspective, also mitigates free will. It also contradicts the fact that personality traits are entirely voluntary.

Citation needed.

(22-07-2015 12:28 PM)Melanie Wrote: People can choose to be empathetic, compassionate, caring and to abide by their consciences or not. Science is also gradually discovering this fact.

People can choose? So all experts are lying or trying to help other make excuses? You are the one who is right? Steven Pinker in his book The Blank Slate cites that psychopathy is genetically conditioned (predisposed?) though it can have other causes as brain damage during early childhood*. You have better credentials than him? Or you just believe and belief is all you need?

(21-07-2015 08:03 AM)ClydeLee Wrote: What is fallen about mankind if man was given one free will choice to not break? Did Adam have free will if the tree of knowledge was never planted there?

If Jesus is God, how does that apply to humanity as evidence of free will? I'd like evidence of normal not god men having life after death to believe in it. Non comparable situations are poor uses of evidence.

When you and I make a decision against conscience (much of, most of) the time our conscience has pangs. Take a minute and imagine doing something you shouldn't. How do you feel? Adam and Eve felt that way.

Now, roll forward to you and I--it's way too easy to blame everything on God, or Adam and Eve--I do neither. You and I feel/know we shouldn't do certain things--we get the "willies" and do them anyway. We will be judged.

Your point is still related to using the term "primary." From your God-centered view; Humans exist and have the ability to have a conscience, why? because God created the world with that ability. It's not about blame or avoiding judgement, it's the sensibility to understand concepts you are talking about.

God to you has to be the PRIMARY source of everything. Every tiny little thing including every choice humans make Good or Bad. Nothing could exist without God, that makes him the primary source and cause of all there is.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

(22-07-2015 10:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Are you aware that some of the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary? I think of the Bible as sweet to the believer, rope to hang yourself with for the rebellious.

Again, you've not answered any of my propositions from before.

Also you said: "the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary"

Provide examples please? And after you provide those you will need to show that the bible was specifically talking about itself when it said those things. After you are finished with that, if you even get that far, you can explain to me how you get out of the circular argument that you have just created. The bible cannot say that the bible has set traps for people without begging the question.

Please, please, please l encourage you to learn the basic logical fallacies. They will help you much more in your arguments.

Finally, tell me why you are a Christian? Why do you believe in the bible?

Start with Matthew 13:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

--Which could be taken as begging the question, except that the question is answered! The "more unbelieving"--skeptics--constantly, continually screw Bible interpretation up, utterly. This is true across history since Jesus spoke these words! Again, the Bible is proven true.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

Also you said: "the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary"

Provide examples please? And after you provide those you will need to show that the bible was specifically talking about itself when it said those things. After you are finished with that, if you even get that far, you can explain to me how you get out of the circular argument that you have just created. The bible cannot say that the bible has set traps for people without begging the question.

Please, please, please l encourage you to learn the basic logical fallacies. They will help you much more in your arguments.

Finally, tell me why you are a Christian? Why do you believe in the bible?

Start with Matthew 13:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

--Which could be taken as begging the question, except that the question is answered! The "more unbelieving"--skeptics--constantly, continually screw Bible interpretation up, utterly. This is true across history since Jesus spoke these words! Again, the Bible is proven true.

All this does is create more confusion. If you're attempting to argue that Jesus produced an esoteric style of teaching so that people would not understand then this is in direct conflict of the pastoral epistles which teach that god wants all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4). I'm sure there are many others.

It's obvious that something is amiss here. Since the epistles were written much earlier than the gospels, it would appear that what is going on here is an attempt to undermine some other sort of theology by putting words into Jesus' mouth and using him as a ventriloquist to say what the author wanted to say.

Again, you proved my point of how confusing the bible is because of the myriad of views that exist, all pointing to a human book, not a book inspired by a god.

Also you said: "the Bible authors/speakers addressed your point, teaching that it is filled with traps for the unwary"

Provide examples please? And after you provide those you will need to show that the bible was specifically talking about itself when it said those things. After you are finished with that, if you even get that far, you can explain to me how you get out of the circular argument that you have just created. The bible cannot say that the bible has set traps for people without begging the question.

Please, please, please l encourage you to learn the basic logical fallacies. They will help you much more in your arguments.

Finally, tell me why you are a Christian? Why do you believe in the bible?

Start with Matthew 13:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

--Which could be taken as begging the question, except that the question is answered! The "more unbelieving"--skeptics--constantly, continually screw Bible interpretation up, utterly. This is true across history since Jesus spoke these words! Again, the Bible is proven true.

You never quite grew up, did you.

Reminds me of some Peter Pan lyrics.

I won't grow up!
I will never even try
I will do what Peter tells me
And I'll never ask him why

(the lost boys sing....)
We won't grow up
We will never grow a day
And if someone tries to make us
We will simply run away

I won't grow up!
No, I promise that I won't
I will stay a boy forever
And be banished if I don't!

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

--Which could be taken as begging the question, except that the question is answered! The "more unbelieving"--skeptics--constantly, continually screw Bible interpretation up, utterly. This is true across history since Jesus spoke these words! Again, the Bible is proven true.

All this does is create more confusion. If you're attempting to argue that Jesus produced an esoteric style of teaching so that people would not understand then this is in direct conflict of the pastoral epistles which teach that god wants all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4). I'm sure there are many others.

It's obvious that something is amiss here. Since the epistles were written much earlier than the gospels, it would appear that what is going on here is an attempt to undermine some other sort of theology by putting words into Jesus' mouth and using him as a ventriloquist to say what the author wanted to say.

Again, you proved my point of how confusing the bible is because of the myriad of views that exist, all pointing to a human book, not a book inspired by a god.

I'm afraid I'd restate your answer as "Sure, you just answered my question, but I don't like the answer, so I'll redact it to that passage being pseudopigrapha."

I'd prefer you go the traditional TTA route of saying "Holy cow, freakin' Jesus purposefully spoke to keep non-disciples wandering and lost--he sucks!" rather than "Oh well, the Bible is confusing because it has all these other sources contributing things to it I don't like!"

Jesus and other writers are clear in the Bible--it's meant to keep non-seekers barred outside. Based on how TTA'ers respond--Q must be insane to actually like that book--it's clearly working!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

--Which could be taken as begging the question, except that the question is answered! The "more unbelieving"--skeptics--constantly, continually screw Bible interpretation up, utterly. This is true across history since Jesus spoke these words! Again, the Bible is proven true.

You never quite grew up, did you.

Reminds me of some Peter Pan lyrics.

I won't grow up!
I will never even try
I will do what Peter tells me
And I'll never ask him why

(the lost boys sing....)
We won't grow up
We will never grow a day
And if someone tries to make us
We will simply run away

I won't grow up!
No, I promise that I won't
I will stay a boy forever
And be banished if I don't!

Thank you for insulting me. God will reward me for your persecuting me. Please return to this thread again soon with facts that establish your position, rather than taunts.

Because people who taunt other people are the people who never grew up to full maturity. Your post is self-contradictory.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

(23-07-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: I'm afraid I'd restate your answer as "Sure, you just answered my question, but I don't like the answer, so I'll redact it to that passage being pseudopigrapha."

LOL Q - I am perfectly okay with your answer. It's an interpretation though. That's why it doesn't matter what answer you give. Like I said before and you still cannot dispute: (Setting aside the potential circular reasoning for a moment) If you believe the bible is the divine inspired word of god then every word / idea held within those pages has to be true because god would not contradict himself. This is simply NOT the case and loads of people in this forum have pointed that out a number times. However, as soon as you try to harmonize one single section you immediately concede the the bible IS contradictory or else there is no reason to harmonize. The view you are interpreting: "Jesus talked in parables so that he could set traps for others not to know about the kingdom of heaven" is in direct contradiction to verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 and II Peter 3:9. So why would a loving god who wants "all to be saved and come to him" set traps to deliberately mislead people?
You simply can't have it both ways.

Quote:I'd prefer you go the traditional TTA route of saying "Holy cow, freakin' Jesus purposefully spoke to keep non-disciples wandering and lost--he sucks!" rather than "Oh well, the Bible is confusing because it has all these other sources contributing things to it I don't like!"

You can prefer all you want. I speak what I see. I see a direct contradiction which infuses confusion. 1 Cor. 14:33 - God is not the author of confusion - Well if he allowed two directly incompatible ideas to lie together in the same bed, that IS authoring confusion.

Quote:Jesus and other writers are clear in the Bible--it's meant to keep non-seekers barred outside. Based on how TTA'ers respond--Q must be insane to actually like that book--it's clearly working!

You moved the goal posts young man!! Now you are saying it's meant to keep "non-seekers" out. Either way, it doesn't work. Because if that were true, then so many people who sought with utmost sincerity, including myself, would not have disregarded and fled their faith because of lack of evidence, bad reasoning and inconsistencies on top of contradictions.