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Rakesh wrote:IR, after the down select....only the Rafale and Typhoon were left. Since the MMRCA selection was clean, either one - Rafale or Typhoon - would have been expensive. What other choice was there?

As I said earlier, I think MMRCA selection was clean. But, there is a saying, jitna bada chaddar, utna hi paer badhana chahiye. Our MMRCA selection was not based on that principle.

Katare sahab, Rafale is not expensive? It is one of the three most expensive fighters built in the history of mankind, the most expensive in production right now.

Rafael has only one counterpart in Typhoon today and since Rafael was L1 in Indian competition so from that pov it is not the expensive one.

Similar things were said about the mirage 2k, several decades back. We all know A well made product costs more upfront but it turns out much cheaper and more useful in longer terms. The cost of ~$100m/ aircraft is pretty standard today. Even smalles LCA mk2 may endup costing close to $80-100M/aircraft.

In front of half cooked Russian products everything looks expensive but that is not a good comparison in my opinion. It takes years if not decades to get those cheap Russian products at required/promised working standards. That is hidden cost which makes them look cheaper.

The Typhoon has great promise but is nowhere near the same level of maturity as the Rafale in terms of sensor maturity, sensor fusion, integrated weapons. Its a great hot rod though, and has a bigger nose than the Rafale, theoretically more capable against future LO threats.But as a package, the Rafale is exceptional. It brings F-22/F-35 levels of sensor fusion with the bomb truck capability of a F-15.The French scored a home run with the aircraft, only that the F-35 will surpass it in LO and hence the window for exports is shrinking.

Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.Ultra-compact packaging to the max.

AFM was nothing but a Typhoon PR mag, thanks to some of its contributors like J Lake.A better eval of dated "versus" capability, was the Swisss eval, the Rafale was far ahead of the EF, and TBH, the EF maturity is still suspect.

Karan M wrote:Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.Ultra-compact packaging to the max.

There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.

Cain Marko wrote:^ yes, its all over the BS monitor. Range is more than the MKI, yeah right - with what kind of load and fuel carriage I wonder.

Actually it is correct as per the discussion in the attached video.The points raised by IAF air marshal were-

1) Rafael has 1.5x action radius (whatever that means) of Su30MKI2) 2000KM ferry range 2) Rafael has highest ratio (2.5x) of empty weight (10ton) to all up weight (24.5 ton)of any aircraft in the world including transport aircrafts3) Rafael is rated at planned 5 sorties a day minimum while Standard IAF planned sortie rate is 3 sorties/day.4) Meteor range 180km, no escame range in head on mode of 150km5) SCALP has range of 300km, accuracy of 3 meter and payload of massive 1200kg.6) It’ll have strategic (nuclear) impact

Basically with 2 squadrons, we’ll get combat capability of 4 squadrons due to much higher range, sorti rate, serviceability rates, maturity of plateform and strong after sales support.

MKI needs super 30 upgrades soon, new boss is coming to town next year. Anyhow MKI will remain our main workhorse for next two decades, Rafael can only act as spear tip with these numbers.

@Katareji,That logo belongs to the French airforce. Its Red, white and blue concentric rings. The IAF logo is orange(keshari) on the outer most ring followed by white in the middle with green in the center.Regards

Katare-ji...please see both roundels below. Although the distinction below is very clear, in photographs (and videos) depending on time of day, hue, lighting, camera lens, etc, etc, etc...both roundels can look similar.

Karan M wrote:Just shows the level of investment the French put into their tech and how its paid off. See the small size of the Rafale radar above and yet it matches that of previous gen heavies with much larger radars.Ultra-compact packaging to the max.

There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.

I am not too sure of that anymore. They are fairly equivalent. The French investments in automated design tools, workforce, precision manufacturing and their overall electronics manufacturing industry (see UMS for instance) have meant their systems are very capable. No surprise then that we worked the LRTR with Israel and the MFCR from France. In platform level capabilities, the French are far ahead - they make everything from submarines, to arty, to aircraft to munitions. Their depth of heavy industry is ahead of Israel.

chetak wrote:There is one other country that does better packaging by far and that is Israel.

I am not too sure of that anymore. They are fairly equivalent. The French investments in automated design tools, workforce, precision manufacturing and their overall electronics manufacturing industry (see UMS for instance) have meant their systems are very capable. No surprise then that we worked the LRTR with Israel and the MFCR from France. In platform level capabilities, the French are far ahead - they make everything from submarines, to arty, to aircraft to munitions. Their depth of heavy industry is ahead of Israel.

Per the israelis, the packaging is more an art and not so much as engineering.

Even there, all are not equally accomplished and it is the russian jews who by far excel at this art.

Rafale is a wonderful aircraft. Very refined over generations starting with the originally Mirage, that’s four generations at least. Having said that some of the capabilities being touted here, on news channels, by sources and now an AM (no less) are physics bending.

Indranil wrote:Rafale is a wonderful aircraft. Very refined over generations starting with the originally Mirage, that’s four generations at least. Having said that some of the capabilities being touted here, on news channels, by sources and now an AM (no less) are physics bending.

Context matters and these TV debates all drop that. Su-30 can't have external fuel tanks. Rafale can field them. Using a combination of external tanks and internal fuel, Rafale can exceed Su-30 ROA.Similarly, the Meteor's RMax can be 200km. Its NEZ against a non maneuvering target can be high as well. The actual ranges against a maneuvering fighter will be much lesser.

Kinemetics NEZ claim of 150 km for Meteor is ridiculious , the nez of python-5 and derby-er which have more sophisticated sensor and manoiveribility does not exceed 30km against a manouvverable fighter

The 150 km nez would be against non manouvering target like cruise missile or helicopter

Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?

So MKI lugs around 2.5 tons on extra dead body weight as compared to Rafale standard. In other words if the airframe was composit and refined like Rafale it would weigh empty at 15.5tons.

That translates to 13.88% aditional dead weight on MKI. Assuming, without any supporting data, that french engines would be 10% more efficient than 1990s designed AL engines and Rafael aerodynamics provide 10% lower drag one could kinda see how Rafale can out range MKIs with their 5 wet pylons in some configurations but would that be efficient use of the plane remains questionable.

Austin wrote:Kinemetics NEZ claim of 150 km for Meteor is ridiculious , the nez of python-5 and derby-er which have more sophisticated sensor and manoiveribility does not exceed 30km against a manouvverable fighter

The 150 km nez would be against non manouvering target like cruise missile or helicopter

Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?

You may be right by curious as to what is the basis of claiming that python and derby-ER are more sophisticated?

MBDA website claims that Meteor has no escape zone of “many times” of current MRAAMs.

Btw, these rafales are being compared with the MKI that was inducted 20 years ago, let us see how much of this holds true after the MKI is upgraded, which would be a better Com parison. For instance, if the MKI is plumbed to carry 2000 liter efts like the su35, I doubt range would be anywhere near comparable. The 35 is supposed to have a range of 4500km with 2 x eft.

Austin wrote:Wasn’t Air Marshal Masand the same guy who commanded the mirage squadron at Gwalior in 80s ?

Air Marshal Harish Masand was a MiG-29 pilot. He wrote an article of his experiences of the MiG-29 vis-a-viv with the Mirage 2000 in an aviation magazine. He states that while the M2K had a beautiful fit & finish unlike the MiG-29, the latter out manoeuvred the former in every mock dogfight between the two birds. A very interesting article and I can no longer find it on the web. Wg Cdr Ramesh “Joe” Bakshi was his counterpart from the M2K squadron. Sadly Wg Cdr Bakshi was killed during an IAF Day event (Oct 08th) sometime in the late 80s. He was performing manoeuvres at the event - in a M2K - when he made a critical error and paid for it with his life.

Katare wrote:What is the significance of painting a symbol that looks like a target on once’s own assets.

A round symbol looks the same from any aspect and any angle making recognition easier during dogfights with planes maneuvering like crazy and incorrect identification having fatal consequences. A lot of operational experience goes into military matters - nothing happens by chance.

So MKI lugs around 2.5 tons on extra dead body weight as compared to Rafale standard. In other words if the airframe was composit and refined like Rafale it would weigh empty at 15.5tons.

That translates to 13.88% aditional dead weight on MKI. Assuming, without any supporting data, that french engines would be 10% more efficient than 1990s designed AL engines and Rafael aerodynamics provide 10% lower drag one could kinda see how Rafale can out range MKIs with their 5 wet pylons in some configurations but would that be efficient use of the plane remains questionable.

Katare ji,

if I am not wrong, i seem to have read somewhere that russki airframe designs, especially the newer ones, have much more internal fuel carrying capacity, when compared to their western counterparts.

There was even a move some time ago by some amerikis to import russki airframes (flanker??) and fit them out with the entire western suite of engines and all avionics.