Should we leave the EU?

JLP wrote:This might be a dumb question but why, if there is no hard border between EU states, do I need a passport to go to mainland Europe. We went on a coach holiday to Germany last year. We had to show passports at the ferry terminal and I got my bags searched but when we got to the border with Holland and Germany, we never even stopped.

Holland and Germany are both Schengen zone, UK is not. You don’t actually need a passport; any photo ID is acceptable, but in reality passports are far easier.

But yes - there’s already a controlled border between the UK and most of the EU. It’s a Brexit myth that we need to ‘secure our borders’.

JLP wrote:This might be a dumb question but why, if there is no hard border between EU states, do I need a passport to go to mainland Europe. We went on a coach holiday to Germany last year. We had to show passports at the ferry terminal and I got my bags searched but when we got to the border with Holland and Germany, we never even stopped.

Holland and Germany are both Schengen zone, UK is not. You don’t actually need a passport; any photo ID is acceptable, but in reality passports are far easier.

But yes - there’s already a controlled border between the UK and most of the EU. It’s a Brexit myth that we need to ‘secure our borders’.

Holland? Not the rest of The Netherlands?

We went to Holland on holiday in the half term and our friend got to the tunnel before realising he'd forgotten his passport. He got through on his driving licence in both directions with no problem.

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JLP wrote:This might be a dumb question but why, if there is no hard border between EU states, do I need a passport to go to mainland Europe. We went on a coach holiday to Germany last year. We had to show passports at the ferry terminal and I got my bags searched but when we got to the border with Holland and Germany, we never even stopped.

Holland and Germany are both Schengen zone, UK is not. You don’t actually need a passport; any photo ID is acceptable, but in reality passports are far easier.

But yes - there’s already a controlled border between the UK and most of the EU. It’s a Brexit myth that we need to ‘secure our borders’.

Thanks for the explanation. At least with a secure border, all those pesky foreign Johnnys won't be able to come here and take our jobs thuis keeping wages down whilst taking all our hard earned benefits as well.

JLP wrote:So if there is no hard border, people will still be able to travel to Ireland and on to Northern Ireland. From there to mainland UK? Bugger no pay rise then

Yes.

And if the UK can’t come up with a unique solution to Northern Ireland that maintains the GFA whilst also exiting the EU, the default position is a Norway-style system whereby we effectively stay in the EU.

So Brexit is cancelled, unless:

1) Ireland leaves the EU2) Northern Ireland leaves the UK3) Northern Ireland can be physically split off from the Republic, perhaps by means of planned earthquakes (see North America thread)

JLP wrote:Thanks for the explanation. At least with a secure border, all those pesky foreign Johnnys won't be able to come here and take our jobs thuis keeping wages down whilst taking all our hard earned benefits as well.

Spoiler! :

That's a joke BTW

You make it sound like you are a hardened 'Remainer' JLP, but as I recall, you didn't know which way you were going to vote. Now all you do is agree with 'Roger'.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this, to be honest. My head says that this is probably the best-case scenario we can have, and many remainers will be happy or at least content with the result, but my heart says that we haven't really left at all, and feel cheated. Who knows, maybe this will be the best solution available, but I will always wonder- the EU is sort of like the Hotel California- you can check out any time, but you can never leave!

Give me... chocolate!"We are living in an era of 'woke' capitalism, in which companies pretend to care about social justice in order to sell products to people who pretend to hate capitalism."

I seriously think there will be a General Election soon. The Tories will almost certainly split over this latest 'deal'. Credit to Theresa May for trying, but it's hopeless, absolutely hopeless. I expect she knows what's about to happen and is probably relieved to be honest.

I have said many times that I didn't think Brexit would actually happen and now it's patently obvious that it's dead in the water. Any deal that includes any sort of a role for the ECJ can never be acceptable to anyone who put a x in the 'leave' box. It's not acceptable to me at all, this is not what I voted for, but it's what I expected to happen.

The most annoying thing about it all is that the losing side now talk as if they were all experts on Customs Unions, trade tariffs and the NI situation, when like most people they knew nothing about it at the time that they voted (not El). Not that the Brexit vote outcome would have changed, because there is a real, intense dislike of the EU in this country and that will surely now deepen.

fairydandy wrote:The most annoying thing about it all is that the losing side now talk as if they were all experts on Customs Unions, trade tariffs and the NI situation, when like most people they knew nothing about it at the time that they voted (not El). Not that the Brexit vote outcome would have changed, because there is a real, intense dislike of the EU in this country and that will surely now deepen.

I know nothing about Customs Unions and trade tariffs, but I’m fairly well versed in Irish politics (albeit nowhere near as well as people who live there!), being part-Irish myself. I’ve been pretty vocal about my stance on Ireland for years now - see discussions about poppies, Bloody Sunday, etc.

Edit: Just seen your edit

Edit 2: I seem to have even quoted it! Was it even an edit? I think I might be losing my marbles.

It was a groundbreaking feat of diplomacy at the time and has led to relative peace on the island of Ireland for over a decade. However, it IS fundamentally incompatible with there being a controlled border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Northern Ireland is less than 5% of the population of the UK, and in this post-Al Quaeda and ISIS world, the IRA don’t seem that scary any more. So I can completely understand why people living in England, particularly those with no Celtic connections, might feel that maybe Northern Ireland should just get on with it and do what the majority have said they must do.

I think that would be a very honest stance; far better than this silly idea that the likes of Rees-Mogg have that we can have a Hard Brexit and a soft border. I’d disagree completely of course, but at least we’d all be operating on the same level of reality.

Last edited by Roger on Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Roger wrote:Question fd - do you think we should scrap the Good Friday Agreement?

Why would anyone want to scrap it? The 'troubles' were not something that I would ever want us to return to, not that I ever understood the troubles on any sort of a deep level anyway - I'm not sure that many people did! I don't know what the answer is though...and thankfully it's not my job to find it. The government offered the country a referendum, it's down to them how they deliver it and how they navigate the issues.

Maybe we should ask Trump to declare that Dublin is the capital of NI or something...