Pastor Leaves Nasty No-Tip Note to Waitress, then Demands she be fired (article)

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This is something that came up indirectly in a previous discussion at some point in the last month or so in Hot Topics-- I think what this story illustrates is that there is still very much a perception of social class in America that pertains to what someone does, and in particular service people, particularly food service people for some reason, are treated as beneath almost everyone else. Anyone who's worked in food service will pretty much know what I mean, people really talk to you sometimes as if you're from a separate subspecies just because of the job you're doing. If anyone has read any of the books that the series "True Blood" is based off, those books really captured a lot of the bias and bigotry that people have towards food service workers, as the main character is telepathic and works as a waitress, and can always hear what people are thinking about her.

And apparently even pastors aren't immune. Despite similarly living "in a field of service", the connotation of where they rank in the social order is just nowhere near someone like a waiter or waitress.

This infuriates me. We treat people in the retail and service industry like they're not even people. It's disgusting and reprehensible.

And there's definitely other similar fields too. Teachers, I feel, in particular are someone that society gives lip service to praising-- but parents who actually have a kid in a particular teacher's class always seem to feel that they know better than the teacher. And I think there is definitely among middle class parents the idea of ... "well if they were so smart then why the heck are they teachers making x amount instead of something better." A lot of the friction in American classrooms today is the general belief, I think, that parents know more than teachers. The amount of people who leave teaching because of parents is not at all insubstantial.

As a Christian and somebody who used to work retail and fast food I will agree. Religious groups are terrible tippers. The Sunday afternoon crowds are awful. You see them all come in dressed in their Sunday best, women with their hair done up like Little House on the Prarie; right away you know they are going to be the most demanding, short tempered, and ill giving.

This infuriates me. We treat people in the retail and service industry like they're not even people. It's disgusting and reprehensible.

Let's not over-generalise. This is just about a low-life pastor, and I do believe that most of us are respectful and kind towards food servers and store clerks. I see a lot more people who are better than this pastor on a daily basis, and yes it's true that there are still those who need to be educated about how to treat others - be it a homeless person, an elderly, a child, or service workers - with respect and kindness.

When I have lived "check to check," I certainly didn't piss away the job I had to retaliate against a customer.

I've worked restaurants, college cafeterias, and retail department stores. What I read on JUB is a perpetual lopsided bias against customers and for waiters. It's a 2-way street and there are plenty of guilty on both sides. The majority of customers respect wait staff and the majority of wait staff try to do a good job.

All the back-and-forths when there is a tresspass are just advocate positions of inherent bias, in most of the threads on JUB.

In my view equating someone's job they live on with the pastor being a little embarrassed is exactly the same sort of dismissal of servicepeople as "beneath" that I alluded to in my first post.

No, it doesn't require any vertical concept of society at all. It requires people who act terribly to be accountable.

The pastor is outed as petty and cheap.

The waitress for airing private business that is the prerogative of her employer.

It is fallacious to assume that the waitress is desperate, unemployable, or anything like that. She got fired. Lots of restaurants won't care what she did as long as she doesn't do it again. There are always waitering jobs to be found.

I still say they deserve each other. Fate drew them together.

I'm somewhere between Democrat and Socialist in my political views, but that doesn't mean any particular party in a conflict necessarily gets a bias.

And to be clear, I didn't use the term "equal" or "equate." You did when you characterized my view. I said it was just.

I don't even know why politics are being brought into it. I can't say it better than I did in the previous post really. Equating embarassment with losing a job dismisses the waitress as being beneath the pastor.

In this case, the service charge had already been included on the check. The pastor crossed it off, and put in place of it, a big fat zero. He designed it to be purposely offensive.

Please go back and look again at the check.

I did see it Johann and agree that no customer should be automatically assessed an 18% tip in the US where the practice is not the norm.

On the other hand...just because some nasty cunt pastor thinks that a server should get the same tip as they give God....well fuck them and the horse they rode in on...God doesn't work for the scraps off the table. No matte what the smug magic christians might think.

Because class is inherently a political thing. Posturing about class is a political position.

Their fates may be equated for you, but you haven't established why it must be equated.

I said that both deserved what happened to them. At no point did I say that their consequences were equal, only that they got what they deserved.

Watching the video of the pastor, one will hardly claim that she appears to be of some middle or upper class in income, speech, education, dress, or manners. She seems every bit as impoverished as any imagined waitress.

"Posturing about class?"

I already made it clear in my post that I wasn't talking about inherited wealth. I was talking about the judgment that goes on in America regarding job, particularly in the case of service and food service jobs. They are viewed and treated as not deserving of the normal consideration you'd give other people. Everyone who works in food service will tell you this.

Yes, saying they were both dicks and both in the wrong and then saying they both got what they deserved when one faced no real repercussion at all and the other lost their job is engaging in exactly this kind of dismissal of someone based on what they do. A pastor regardless of personal wealth is never treated the way a waiter or waitress is, despite both technically "serving" people.

Well, I did not experience degradation when I bussed tables, nor when I worked in a cafeteria, nor when I worked as a retail clerk. I can't believe that there is more class distinction today than there was 35 years ago.

Well, believe it. Ask teachers today how they are supported by parents and compare that to 35 years ago. Times have changed even if your personal experiences didn't show you so.

OK, I missed your turn there. What does the teacher supported by a parent mean? I was a teacher in the 80s and again in the late 90s and in a state that ranks among the poorest in the nation -- Arkansas. I never had assistance as a teacher and was a single income teacher with no savings and no graduate degrees or extra income. I was poor then, and teachers are poor yet. How has that deteriorated? I rented a bedroom from an old lady in her home. I later rented tiny and then very old houses. When I left teaching to work in a factory, I made more money and not status changed.

To that point, the lack of respect for teachers was huge in the 80s when I left it. Honestly, I cannot imagine it being any worse now. I felt like the custodian got as much respect as I did as a high school teacher, and that's pretty egalitarian.

It hasn't been Mayberry out there since the early 60s.

Then you see my point. There are jobs in this country that people treat like dirt because of how much it earns and not necessarily a reflection of its contribution or worth. And people should not be treated differently based on their profession anyway, but they are.

OMG. The so-called 'democratic' America has the same class conflict as everywhere else in the world!

I know you don't want to hear gratuitous advice from non-Americans. But I'll give it anyway.

We outlawed mandatory tipping in my country but we do have mandatory laws stating a minimum wage and to protect employees.

And we don't give tax exemptions to religious cults and shonky ministers.

I would much prefer a system like Japan's where the server's pay is built in and you are not even supposed to tip. It makes more sense both from the server's point of view (they're going to make living even if they get a slow shift or unfavorable workdays) and even from a tax point of view since tips are notoriously variably reported. I would be more than willing to pay more to eat out to pay for it.

When I entered teaching in 1983, people paid teachers low wage and did not respect them.

Today, it looks the same to me.

I don't buy that low wage equals low respect given. In the places where I have worked, custodians are treated with respect.

Bus drivers aren't treated with contempt.

Cashiers are denigrated.

Nursing staff aren't treated like crap.

Any position CAN be disrespected, and sometimes by those who think they are better because of income, but I don't see that as being any worse than it was 40 years ago, and I was poor back then, so I remember.

I never claimed it was consistent. As I pointed out, it's not as if pastors are all rich but the way they will be generally deferred to is totally different from how a waiter or waitress gets treated. Perhaps because there is a perception that a pastor chose a life of little riches for some "other reason" whereas people tend to view people in food service as "not being capable of anything else." But nevertheless the distinction in social treatment is there.

To be honest I don't see "I saw a janitor get treated well" as much representing any general picture. It's always been my experience that the great majority of people literally act as though they do not exist, including avoiding eye contact and not saying hello to them. Much the same treatment homeless people are given.

We have just experienced the world very differently then. I have worked for companies large and small, and it is the norm to speak to the custodians, to thank them, to get out of their way when cleaning, etc.

Maybe it is a regional thing. I have worked and lived in Arkansas, Alaska, and New Mexico. The companies I have worked for have been as small as a couple of dozen people and as large as 200,000 employees.

Hard-up no rudeness intended, I find this anecdotal line of argument to be as worthless as you rattling down a list of all the black people you've known and saying that you feel none of them were ever treated differently for being black, and that therefore, you reject the notion that black people in general ever feel they are treated differently.

I don't have any doubt whatsoever that in the viewpoint of people in lower end service jobs-- cooking and cleaning and direct service-- would almost unanimously report feeling treated badly or as beneath common courtesy by many people in the normal course of their jobs. I'm almost certain that the people who would say they almost never run into that would be the exception or would work in very small, casual/friendly environments.

The service-charge at Applebee's is clearly stated. Had the pastor not wanted to pay it she shouldn't have made the choice to eat there. I consider her evasive "cancellation" of the charge the equivalent of theft.

If she felt she was somehow blindsided by the policy she could have notified the management. I have no doubt they would have waived the charge, explained the policy and invited her to come back adequately informed of it.

This sort of self-entitlement is unfortunately very common.

Somali Ostrich

The worst thing...is not energy depletion, economic collapse, conventional war, or the expansion of totalitarian governments. As terrible as these catastrophes would be for us, they can be repaired in a few generations. The one process now going on that will take millions of years to correct is loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us.--e.o. wilson

My experience in low wage jobs makes me question the bad treatment perception by my co-workers, as I worked alongside a great many peers who a) resented working, b) resented not having high paying jobs, c) regretting throwing away their opportunities when they had rejected academics, and d) often blamed their employers and the business' customers for their unhappiness.

This statement, to me, hints at implying blame at people in lower end jobs for the way they get treated.

It was always my experience in these jobs that I got treated worse, for smaller 'offenses', more rudely and with a far smaller chance of receiving any sort of apology than once I entered the "professional"/salaried world. And frankly, you're the first person I've ever run into in my entire life who claimed this wasn't a fairly universal truth about low end service jobs in the U.S.

I don't believe the attitude or the aptitude mattered. I was treated plenty of times as though I were stupid, even sometimes as if English were not my first language, when (being modest) I would consider myself more than passingly intelligent and certainly more than fluent in English. The way many customers treat someone who is just trying to help them for literally no reason I could ever ascertain other than because of the 'level' of job they were doing was downright offensive, both to me and to nearly all of my coworkers, many times.

And even if we're going to give a little light to your allusion that people in these jobs don't perform well or have a bad attitude-- the very, very easy flipside to that is, why are people expecting 4 or 5 star service and a happy attitude from someone trying to survive on minimum wage in this country? We don't pay minimum wage jobs enough for the people to have a true passion about what they're doing. They do it because they need the money. So even assuming 'servicepeople's attitude' is 'part of the problem', an innuendo I do not agree with by the way, the fact that people expect someone simply by virtue of being a waiter or minimum wage serviceperson to act like a delighted house slave to meet their romanticized notion of old-fashioned customer service is still part of the equation when we discuss how people treat servicepeople.

Of course I expect a certain level of service or civility from servicepeople. But I remember working those kinds of jobs, and I certainly don't expect them to suck my dick or act absolutely thrilled to be working at Del Taco. I question how in touch someone is if they would find that a reasonable expectation for someone making 6 bucks an hour with no benefits.

There was no hint. I stated openly that they often develop bad attitudes, and of course it shows. That is not to say it is the majority or can be quantified, but it is common.

And, as I stated repeatedly in this thread, the great majority of customers and wait staff are respectful to each other in the restaurants I frequent here, so there is no reason why I need to blame one side unduly or excessively.

I'm just not going to concede to being biased against the poor, the low-wage, or the low-skilled in the workforce. I'm calling it as I see it, and I see it as hard work but not excusing of bad behavior. Likewise, I don't defend customers treating cashiers, clerks, and wait staff with disrespect, nor have I in this thread.

The debate seems to need to create a need to uncover or expose some sort of lurking elitism, whereas I simply don't see any such thing in the posts.

If one doesn't want to see it, and one is willing to dismiss everyone who says they see it (including your own story about how you were treated as a teacher), then sure, it doesn't exist.

I have no motive to not want to see it. Because we differ is not cause to impugn my perception or to impute willful ignorance.

My comment about disrespect to teachers wasn't about salaries. Parents abuse teachers, and disrespect them, because they indulge their children in many ways, and it inevitably puts them into direct conflict with teachers who may not sway to the willfulness of children who are being asked to do difficult work in class.

If teachers were paid 200,000 a year and had secretaries, you believe parents would so shamelessly walk in and disrespect them as if they were their child's personal servant?

OK, then I tried to engage with respect. If we can't do that, then I won't engage. I don't intend to be drawn into that sort of demeaning exchange. That's too bad, really.

I said fairly early in I don't see anything productive coming out of "well that's not what I saw." I can't vouch for what you saw other than saying what I already said, you're the first person I've ever heard make the claim that people in low end service are about as respected as anyone else unless their poor attitude warrants disrespect. That isn't what I've seen, it isn't what I've heard out of anyone from a service job, and it wasn't my experience. And it is essentially a Just World viewpoint.

And I won't defend a position I did not take. I could impute an array of arguments to you, but if that is legitimate debate, then two parties aren't necessary: you can argue for your opponent and then counterargue, and surprisingly, you will win because you have stated both sides rather than merely rebut the one actually argued.

As I said earlier, I'm through, as it is not debate, it's just an attempt to demean and ridicule. I'll yield the field, as it matters not how I am made into caricature, as those who know me, even on JUB, know better. Imputing malicious or simple-mindedness to the other side is gratuitous. I don't need to believe I'm smarter or superior to the other side of a debate in order to make an argument well put.

I've spent a good deal of the discussion correcting you making assumptions about my posts, or making assumptions based off having missed what I said in previous posts.

The Pastor's reference to "I only pay God 10% why should get 18%" is interesting and rather confusing. Is she saying that if God is only worth 10% of the total income a person can generate, then why should a server be paid a tip of 18% of the value of a meal? I doubt the tip would have equated to 18% of the pastor's total income, still we don't have that restaurant chain in Australia so I'm not sure of the prices.

Watching the news clip I wasn't at all surprised to hear the Pastor painting herself in a good light, particularly in relation to calling the restaurant to complain about the post on reddit. I highly doubt she was that calm and nice when she called. I'm sure she knew the young woman would be terminated from her position.

Mind you the young woman seems to be a bit of a twit. Reading the article in the OP she says the signature was illegible. Unless that means something different in the US than it does in Australia I'd say that's a load of bull spit. I could read her signature quite clearly. I'm assuming it was the posting of the signature, more than the actual receipt that cost the woman her job.

That said, I've never fully understood the need for mandatory tipping. In Australia our service staff are paid a minimum wage that, while not luxurious, is enough to live comfortably, our Government made sure that all Australian's are entitled to a minimum wage. In Oz tipping is left to the customer, it's more a bonus for excellent service than anything else. There's one place my friend and I go that seems to think it should be mandatory, but they leave the actual amount up to the customers.

People in service positions should not be reliant on the customers to make a living. They should be paid a fair salary for a fair days work by their employer. To be reliant on tips, only to have those tips shared out amongst a whole range of people is unfair. There's no reason why employers shouldn't be paying their staff a proper wage.

But back to the thread, I think the Pastor should learn to keep thoughts as thoughts. At best what she wrote was uncharitable and rude. Not necessarily the path a Pastor is supposed to take.

So being a person who holds both a good paying, professional job as well as a retail level services job, I will say the difference is night and day in how people treat you. I have actually dealt with people in the retail environment that will be nasty, condescending, and rude to me, even going as far as to throw out their profession as evidence of why they are right, and then will completely change their behavior when they find out that I am a full-time professional outside of the retail environment. There is no doubt an attitude that many people have that because someone works in retail or services, they are automatically inferior and deserve to be treated as such. What's even sadder is that this attitude has become much more prevalent to me in the last 7 1/2 years and I honestly blame the corporations that reward this type of behavior and treatment with giving the customer whatever they want instead of standing behind their employees and showing people that treating another human being like that doesn't get you anywhere.

So being a person who holds both a good paying, professional job as well as a retail level services job, I will say the difference is night and day in how people treat you.

Quoted for truth.

The difference is enormous.

I think I receive more apologies for short tempers or snappish words from clients on a weekly basis in accounting than I ever did total in years of working in fast food.

Oh, and I didn't receive Christmas presents from customers when I was in food service. Or have people apologize because "they knew I was so busy" when they had some kind of additional request.

A very large proportion of people believe not just "you get what you pay for", but also "you're worth what you're paid." No matter how much they may say they respect teachers or janitors or anything else, their actions speak louder than words.

It’s interesting to see how people on the net use their blinkers to focus on just the parts of a situation/story that they want to see, and disgusting to watch them try to force others to only see (be outraged by?) that same narrow-minded view.

Actually, the entire thread digressed into the recurring debate on JUB, pitting people in service jobs against their customers. For the germ of that, it was absolutely about the waitress being deprived of her tip, being righteous in anger when she chose to publicize it, and it being compounded by the fact that the cheap customer flaunted her reasoning as being her religious status.

As far as the epithet of miscreant goes, both of the women in the altercation deserve it. It is just that the waitress has more of a sympathetic audience on JUB, and I'd suspect that it is for the reason that gays are disproportionately represented in service occupations and often resent it, thereby justifying the bad behavior by the employee in this story.