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Topic: foundationless frames (Read 2215 times)

If I buy bees and a queen (or do a shook swarm) can I put them in a hive with all new foundationless frames to draw out? Or should I alternate the foundationless frames with the piercos from my inventory? I'm wondering if they will draw the comb straight in an organized fashion without the piercos as a guide.

Just trying to avoid a situation where my first cut out is from my own hive :-\

I mostly use foundationless frames. I have wedge top bars that i turn the wedge sideways. I normally put one frame of drawn comb in the middle and that's it. Putting one frame of foundation in the middle should work also. You don't want to alternate foundation and empty frames because you will have a big mess. The bees will draw the foundation real fat. I learned this the hard way.

But you can start on all foundationless as long as you keep an eye on them in the beginning. I use all foundationless in my swarm traps and they draw out perfect comb 99% of the time.

I use every other frame drawn and then foundationless. I also have a bunch of pf120 frames and I agree that if you put them in undrawn with the foundationless ones then you will end up with the foundationless ones being drawn out too fat. The easiest is to alternate drawn and undrawn. Once all are drawn you can start the next box with half of the last box.

Hi Gov, That is exactly what I was wondering. Thanks for your insight.

Hi Jim,

I have been reading on Michael Bush's website as well as a German site I found while researching hygiene called resistantbees.com. A good video there but it's in german and I can only pick up 70% of the specific vocabulary. The big picture is clear though, and this 'theory' is that the artificial increase in cell size (in an attempt to maximize honey production) has lead varroa to propogate indiscriminately in workers cells (as they have become similar in size to drone cells).

I would love to find an English translation (or subtitles) for this video ... if anyone knows of such a thing a link would be appreciated. If there is no link I am considerating enlisting some help to undertake it myself (you'll be one of the first to know!). If the snow continues to hang about here this spring I just may have the time for it soon!

In his video (on resistantbees.com) Stephan cites the significant research done by American pioneers like .... Ed and Dee Lusby and .... 'someone' named Michael Bush 8-)

Setting up with foundationless is the first step. After that I'll start picking brains for the right steps to allow cell size to regress to a natural size. I know Michael has it all in his website (and book!) but there's 'many a slip twixt the cup and lip' and puttting this into practise involves a lot of head scratchin for someone that's been stung as few times as me! As I'm starting out be a lot easier to do er right the first time.

Would love the chance to hear you speak Michael!

Slowly (very slowly) it's becoming clear.

BTW this forum and the experience that's in here is fantastico and I appreciate all the help immensely!

I started last year and went foundationless. I tried a few frames with foundation (waxed), even between drawn frames. My bees would even start in an empty frame a box up to avoid the foundation. They just did not want to build on foundation unless there was no other place to make comb.

I also learned last year, they will pretty much build straight comb for the brood area. Especially when I put foundation in between foundationless. They built on the empty frames and were the right 'size' and were fairly well centered.

But up in the honey supers....the comb was too thick, went the wrong way, and was generally a mess every time I inspected. I finally figured out, leave the supers alone until you want to harvest....so what if the comb crosses frames, when you want the honey you are taking the whole box off usually anyhow, and can make the mess in the honey tray.

Foundationless frames allow bees to determine the size of their cells instead of beekeepers. Brood frames are pretty simple, bees draw them out very nicely. Honey frames as already said, can be a bit tricky, but we 'crush and strain' most of our honey so its not usually a problem.

Sticking with it results in survivor bees (and cells) becoming smaller as they pass through several generations. I think the last time I bought foundation was 2007.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 09:22:04 AM by T Beek »

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My bees have created their own wax since 2007. Varroa issues have been minimal. Other than 2 packages my bees are treatment free. I do freeze drone frames periodically whenever I think drones are too numerous. Not yet certain if it helps….buy as said…I and my bees have minimal issues with varroa.

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

We just used top bars with a triangle starter strip. They built pretty straight. and I do insert new bars (after you have them) in between straight comb when doing swarm maintainance.

We have small cell, natural size, and survivor bees (supposedly). After a season, one of 5 hives are showing some varroa so I don't think it is a cure all for varroa but it seems pretty good. The hive with varroa is actually pretty strong right now. I am considering killing off the hive with varroa to stop the spread.

We just used top bars with a triangle starter strip. They built pretty straight. and I do insert new bars (after you have them) in between straight comb when doing swarm maintainance.

We have small cell, natural size, and survivor bees (supposedly). After a season, one of 5 hives are showing some varroa so I don't think it is a cure all for varroa but it seems pretty good. The hive with varroa is actually pretty strong right now. I am considering killing off the hive with varroa to stop the spread.

We just used top bars with a triangle starter strip. They built pretty straight. and I do insert new bars (after you have them) in between straight comb when doing swarm maintenance.

We have small cell, natural size, and survivor bees (supposedly). After a season, one of 5 hives are showing some varroa so I don't think it is a cure all for varroa but it seems pretty good. The hive with varroa is actually pretty strong right now. I am considering killing off the hive with varroa to stop the spread.

Homestead,Are you seeing the varroa on the bees, in a sugar test jar or are they on a board at the bottom of the hive?If they are on the board at the bottom of the hive only, you will bee killing the best hive you have. My observation hive gets varroa mites on the bottom trays but I never see them on the bees. The glass is very clear and it is easy to see if they had any mites. Are the mites alive or dead on the board? I used to see them walking in the tray. Now I only see them dead. I believe they are being pulled from the cells before they are fully developed. I am not sure if the bees bite and kill them or if they perish quickly in the clean out tray. I also do not see larvae being pulled from the cells very often now. Used to see it but it has been a long time since I have seen it. The mite droppings comes in waves. Every so often they are there and then I will go for weeks with out them, usually during the summer. Jim

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TBeek - I would think the 4 without varroa in the same exact location would be the hygenic, survivor bees. They are strong to me coming out of winter, I am a newb. But I'm seeing some deformed wings so it just maybe the beginning of the problem. Another hive (of mine) I watched the healthy bees carrying out the unhealthy bees and not letting them wonder around the hive. That seems like the way you want to go, but I am new. My hubby did suggest taking them out to our other location and just letting them go to see if they survived, but away from our current hives. I am just excited with having all 5 make it through the winter. While it is mild here, we did get a hard freeze that lasted over 14 hours and the 5th hive was started late in the fall so it never got to a good population. I thought for sure it would die over the winter but it is still there and I just added some capped brood frames to help it along (not from the varroa hive). I appreciate your thoughts and if you have more let me know cause I am a newb.

sawdstmaker - I believe I saw them on some of the bees, and I'm seeing deformed wings with whitish bees (only a few thank goodness). I just went in yesterday for the first peek in months so I'm still gathering my bearings. We just replaced our oil trays which I have found are good for small hive beetle and I am really sorry I didn't replace them right before winter hit because I have quite a few small hive beetle but no sliming yet and I'm not too worried because with new trays they the bees have always seemed to be able to keep them in check. I only got to 4 hives yesterday because it is still a little cool here and it can take a while to go through the number of bars involved. I'm going to check on my last hive hopefully today and then I'll break out the camera and go back into the varroa hive and take some pictures. I found I can see a whole lot better when it is a still macro picture that I can zoom and look at without worry if I'm going to get stung or that I'm letting the brood chill while looking. The sugar test is next up if I can convince hubby to do it. He has experience with that and I'm not in the mood to do it just yet.

All colonies have some varroa. Some colonies cannot survive an onslaught, some can and do. Those that survive despite varroa infestations are 'keepers' IMO.

'Deformed Winged Virus' is another matter……an old bee can have pretty raggedy looking wings……….."undertaker bees" are a great service to your colonies and example a generally healthy hive :)

AGREED: keeping colonies alive is the essence of beeKEEPING :) Adding some brood to weak colonies is usually a good idea……but personally I'd be watching that varroa infested colony for other signs that they are not only tolerating the little buggers but killing them, grooming them from one another, embedding them in propolis….all 'good' signs IMO.

Again; if you have a reasonable healthy colony that is thriving despite varroa (they all have some), THAT is a colony worth keeping.

:lau: a 14 hour hard freeze!? N/W Wisconsin just surpassed several old records and we;re not even close to being done 8-). We've had over 60 days with below ZERO F temps, beginning last November, 2 below right now :)

Q? those 'whitish' bees, were they alive or dead? Inside or outside?

GOOD LUCK to you and yours…..

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."