Here is an article that was originally on Aelon.net. It shows the true character of the ex attorney Jack Thompson.

Jack Thompson… Straw Man

plagiarise, 16th July 1:09 amJack Thompson wants the world to think he’s a moral crusader with only the safety of America’s children at heart. His devotion to that cause could surely explain his regularly over the top and exaggerated statements right? So after his latest ‘open letter’ contained more than a few very poorly argued statements, I decided to do the man a genuine favour, and sent him a list of common pitfalls when arguing a point of view, that Carl Sagan once wrote. My e-mail signature mentioned that I write gaming related content for a website, and that seems to be where things started to get interesting.

When writing something such as this piece, you would help your cause by reading, understanding and avoiding the pit falls listed in the following bullet points. Accusing someone of resulting to personal insults and then doing just the same in return, does not elevate you above them in the eyes of anyone who reads your letter, and further more only goes to undermine your beliefs.Making sure that your piece isn’t guilty of numerous examples from the following list would make it much harder for your critics, and put you on much firmer ground.

Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric» Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.» Argument from “authority”.» Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an “unfavourable” decision).» Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).» Special pleading (typically referring to god’s will).» Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).» Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).» Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).» Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)» Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not “proved”).» Non sequitur - “it does not follow” - the logic falls down.» Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - “it happened after so it was caused by” - confusion of cause and effect.» Meaningless question (”what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).» Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the “other side” look worse than it really is).» Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle (”why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?”).» Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).» Confusion of correlation and causation.» Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..» Suppressed evidence or half-truths.

» Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as “police action” to get around limitations on Presidential powers. “An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public”Based on the book “The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark” published by Headline 1996 and written by Carl Sagan.

Yours sincerely,Ryan Acheson

Gaming writer for The Horror Channel’s Dread Central

I wasn’t expecting Jack to reply at all, but sure enough just a few moments later he replied. The text of his e-mail was a copy of a letter he’d sent to some Minnesota officials hoping to get them to file lawsuits against Best Buy and Target. It wasn’t really a reply at all, and was in fact also guilty of some of the things Carl Sagan warned against.

Given the facts, which are too numerous to relate here, it would appear that there is probable cause that Best Buy and Target are at their highest corporate levels involved in the criminal distribution and/or conspiracy to distribute sexual material harmful to minors in violation of Minnesota Statute 617.291 et sequiturIt was only in the subject of the e-mail where Mr Thompson addressed me personally. This is what he said:

Don’t need your help, junior. You’re the problem

Rather taken aback by this statement, I decided to send him a second e-mail clarifying that the first was honest advice that I thought would help him be taken more seriously, and to show him that I wasn’t totally biased towards gaming just because I enjoy and write about the matter myself.

Sir,I am presuming that your short fire e-mail is based more on the fact I am a gamer than on the content of my e-mail. I have no issue with the desire to legislate the game rankings, as I am from England that does just that.I am pained to see game stores selling games to minors, just as much as I am pained to see a fourty year old woman buying GTA: San Andreas with her 8 year old son in tow, telling the clerk who asked her if she knew about the extremely mature content of the game with no small pride that ’she isn’t the kind of mother who spies on what kind of games her boy plays’.

There are many violent video games that children, unchecked, could be disturbed by, and seeing gaming sites ignore the problem, and just make fun of anyone calling for change, bothers me immensely.

I want to see intelligent debate that isn’t based on knee jerk reactions. There needs to be such debate, and gaming needs to stop diverting the problem and address it head first. However, legislating just games, and leaving violent sadistic films unlegislated is what I take most offence with. The singling out of games as if only they could harm a child, as if there weren’t kids being violent before games showed up.

From your record, I know that you have voiced your concerns over films before in the past, but as an English citizen who is living in a country where there is such legislation in place for Film, Video/DVD content and gaming, to see it just being proposed for gaming seems to be a knee jerk reaction to me.The potential affect of a store clerk letting a child buy an M rated game, may be greater than a cinema happily selling a ticket to an R rated movie to a ten year child without a guardian, is no more or less irresponsible on the part of the clerk.

You are voicing legitimate concerns. The legislation you are proposing would help, but it wouldn’t solve all of the problem. From the point of someone living in a country where such legislation is in place, it isn’t nearly enough. Parents do need to be much better educated on the content of these games, and if the games industry is agressive against their critics and their critics misrepresent their games (which the game industry uses to justify ignoring their arguments) then nothing is likely to be achieved.

Take again my example of the woman in the gaming store buying the game for her young boy. Legislation wouldn’t prevent that, but better education for parents might. Providing the parents with information on what games aren’t suitable, such as MAVAV do, is a positive and effective approach. Empower parents to decide what games their children should and shouldn’t play with legislation and then teach them how to make an informed decision before they pick up the latest GTA game for their child with education.

By falling victim to common pitfalls in stating your argument, you make your argument more easily ignored, and I do not want to see that happen.I do not want to see the pro gaming group use you as a straw man to belittle the argument of concerned parents and politicians distrubed by what they see in games.

As someone who wants to see open honest fair debate, I want nothing more than to see you out their arguing your side for everything you’ve got. Maybe then gaming would have to do more to answer your concerns and maybe then we could see some real progress.

Taking Hot Coffee as an issue is very shaky ground. Third party modifications to a game of just about any rating could introduce or unlock content inappropriate content, but should the ESRB be held liable any more than the MPAA should be held liable for two hidden frames of pornography in the popular children’s movie ‘The Rescuers’?

The issue of mods is a whole other can of worms, as it relates much more to internet censorship and classification than selling a product in stores. Yes, a child could download Hot Coffee for San Andreas, but he could just as easily download porn. It’s a totally seperate issue tied into a much bigger problem. Games being sold to minors, or being bought for minors by parents that aren’t making informed decisions is the thing I think we both want you to focus on, and someone in your position promoting both legislation and education, on firm footing, would do nothing but good in my honest opinion.

The fact I play video games as an adult does not make me biased on the issue of whether or not children play them unchecked. I wish more gamers would wake up to the problem, but posting a long, and easily undermineable open letter isn’t going to have as much effect as a water tight one.

Yours sincerelyRyan Acheson

Gaming writer for The Horror Channel’s Dread Central.

Surely seeing this Jack would see that I too don’t want to see young children being exposed to M rated games. Surely he’d see that my advice was not so much based on what he was trying to achieve, but rather the way in which he was trying to achieve it.

I wasn’t sure if he’d reply to an e-mail like that at all, but I wasn’t expecting him to reply like this.

No, the gaming makes the email ridiculous. you gamers are all in a panic, which is why you are coming after me. if I were the lunatic you claim, you would ignore me. you are afraid, because you know that I am right

Normally, before I tear down anyone’s viewpoint as ‘ridiculous’ I take the time to read what that viewpoint is. Seeing that my e-mail hadn’t swiftly stated that I was hoping to see the same end result he was, I decided to reply to him one last time, to encourage him to actually read my previous e-mail, and to maybe get some sense out of the man who was starting to sound more and more deluded. I hadn’t claimed he was a lunatic, heck I’d given him some advice that I still think was sound. I hadn’t claimed that he was wrong, let alone indicated that I was afraid of him, just indicated that I didn’t agree with everything he proposed. I gave him advice on how to make his argument be taken seriously, on how he could be heard instead of ignored. I figured I’d give him one last chance. After all, we both just want to see parents empowered to decide what their child can and can’t play right?

Sir,I can only conclude that you didn’t read my e-mail in full, as you would see it isn’t anything like an attack on you. I’m sure you are receiving countless hate mails off of gamers, day in day out, but that does not make every gamer against you.

There are those of us that greatly enjoy games but still acknowledge that games can and have been damaging to children of too young an age. Not every adult who plays games is against you, and I hope you can realize that. The mentality that if they aren’t completely with me, they must be against me, is the only thing I can see in your reply if you did read all of my previous e-mail. I am not with ‘them’ Mr Thompson. I do not agree with all of your methods, but I agree with your goal: Preventing kids being exposed to games rated M and above.I do thank you for replying to me, at all, especially as I’m sure that many people are sending you inflammatory e-mails… I hope though that if you haven’t read my previous e-mail in full, that you will, as all I’m trying to do is offer you a perspective of a gamer who agrees this needs to stop, who lives in a place where legislation already exists, and is by no means negating the problem. I don’t doubt it’s helping though.

I can understand that you are probably at least as passionate about the issue as I am, which is why my first e-mail took the form of advice. Don’t make yourself a straw man Mr Thompson. Not just for your own beliefs but for everyone else fighting for this issue to be taken seriously. Even if I don’t agree that your approach is the fairest or the most likely to succeed, I think we can both agree that it isn’t taken seriously enough by the gaming press, the average parent, or the mainstream media. I hoped to help you achieve that, and had no intention of causing offence.

Surely… surely this time I’d get a more reasonable reply.Right?From: Jack Thompson [mailto:jackpeace@comcast.net]Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:20 PMTo: Ryan AchesonSubject: Re: Don’t need your help, junior. You’re the problemyou’re right. i have better things to do than bother with gamers’ ideas, which is the latest oxymoron.

Oh. Okay, how stupid of me. I decided not to respond to this last e-mail. What could I say to a person who believes that people who play videogames don’t have a valid opinion on issues relating to them. Jack says my ideas are irrelevant because I’m a gamer, and therefore can’t have any ideas. Whatever Jack.

I send you advice on how to avoid just being ignored by anyone who disagrees with you. I send advice on how to stop you becoming a Straw Man, and you belittle me and gamers in general… betraying your line of ‘think of the children’. It’s evident from your replies that your issue isn’t with children playing violent videogames at all, but that your issue is with everyone who makes videogames and everyone who plays them. Whether or not they’re a parent themselves. Whether or not they actually agree with your cause.

I’m the problem because I play videogames. Gamers can’t have ideas. It’s ridiculous for a gamer to send someone debating gaming issues advice on the issue.

You make yourself a straw man Jack. Nobody needs to do it for you. So long as you keep writing the kind of thing you write, people will have an easy target. Oh those people trying to get gaming ratings legislated in America, they’re just paranoid bigots… just look at that Jack Thompson.

Posted In: General, Gaming

CyrrisHow sad. If this guy was not on a half-minded crusade against the stereotypes he has formed in his own mind, he could well garner the support of the gaming community at large - and doing so would make his goal of protecting kids so much easier for himself, and for everyone else. The only people benefitting from his silliness are the media sites who report on it, as they get more hits from those who wish to have a good laugh at his illogical stance. But hey, they always benefit from bad things happening.16th July @ 1:35 am

HardflipThe guy’s going to achieve nothing as long as he keeps up an attitude worthy of an arrogant teenager who thinks he knows all. He’s just laughing material nowadays. The problem isn’t with games or gamers - it’s about the distribution of them and who to. If a parent wants to give their 10 year old GTA:SA, so be it, but then it becomes a parental problem. Games are not to blame.16th July @ 2:30 am

VermouthI’m not going to take up for this guy personally he’s clearly an asshat but I want to get this message, up. Never, even think about dismissing the power of the Plaintiff’s Chair. The Plaintiff’s chair is really one of the most powerful forces in modern society. Just ask the tobbacco companies for instance. It’s something people in the industry, particuarily marketing people in the industry need to be aware of and conscious of, how things are going to be perceieved.16th July @ 9:48 am

DesertChickenUnfortunatley, Mr. Thompson’s paranoia might be indicative of the gaming community’s prejudice against people with similar stances. If you ask me, Thompson responds to tons of gamer hate mail. That much negative exposure has poisoned him against gamers in general.Where did the gamers get their animosity towards Thompson? Gamers are building stereotypes for people like Mr. Thompson when they hear about all these illogical, badly made arguments in the media. So instead of writing well thought, intelligent letters, they’re probably writting things that are on the same level of Mr. Thompson’s replys to you.It goes to show stereotypes and hatred just lead to more of it. If only a majority of gamers could communicate as intelligently and as tolerantly as you did.16th July @ 3:01 pm

CyrrisGameSpot decided to test and see if the code required for the hot coffee mod was indeed put in by Rockstar. It would seem as though it was - and while this doesn’t surprise me, Rockstar definately aren’t doing any favours to themselves (or the rest of the gaming community) by not coming completely clean about it in the first place.It’s not an issue about it being in there, it’s about not owning up to it. Stirring up controversy like this is exactly what people like Mr Thompson seem to thrive on, and gives them a platform from which to launch their ill-conceived compaigns.16th July @ 3:29 pm

ThornhillboyWow…that guy seems like he didn’t read anything you put. As has been mentioned, he seems to rely on stereotypes of gamers having invalid opinions as they cannot possibly support what they are doing.This guy, whilst having a good aim, has bad methods of going about them.And on another note, am I the only one who cant see the Gravatas properly?17th July @ 11:21 pm

CyrrisNo, gravatar.com appears to be down. The only gravatars I can see are ones I have cached. It’s been like that for quite a few hours now, though I can’t find any information about it.17th July @ 11:59 pm

plagiariseI’m actually glad that the content was already in the game. Can you imagine what could happen to mods if it had been inserted? Any game open to modification could in theory have AO rated content inserted into it, and the potential for some kind of legislation trying to control mods to go way too far worries me.fortunately, that’s not going to happen now. that the game would get an AO rating for two pre rendered characters dry humping though… well, that’s a different matter. i really don’t see how dry humping, which you see in plenty of R rated movies, doesn’t fall under the ‘Strong Sexual Content’ the game is listed on the box as having already.there’s no nudity or genitals… just dry humping. heck, i’d argue that that wasn’t even strong sexual content.Rockstar have mishandled this, but at least that clears the ESRB and the mod community, which is the bigger and more important picture.18th July @ 3:21 am

SlayveI hadn’t considered the point plagiarise makes about the effect this could have had on the MOD community if the content hadn’t been put in by Rockstar. That is a very good point.However, I’m extremely pissed at Rockstar. Of all game devs (except maybe id), they should know better than to do something so inflammatory, something that gives their critics so much valid ammunition. And for what? Whether they did it because they were too lazy to take out some extraneous code before shipping the game or intentionally in order to create a guerrilla marketing event, either way it could potentially cost them millions of dollars due to lawsuits and lost sales because of an AO rating.But what is even worse is that Rockstar made the ESRB look bumbling and ineffectual and the game industry adolescent and untrustworthy at a time when the political climate in the US is extremely hostile to gaming. I know Rockstar is in the UK, but good God people, have you picked up a newspaper in the last 5 years, or ever talked to your legal department? This one screw up could cause serious damage to the gaming industry for years to come. And I’m not just talking about litigation and legislation, I’m more concerned with the lasting effects of negative public opinion. Gaming is mainstream now, let’s wake up and start acting like adults. Rockstar has just given invaluable ammunition to wankers like Jack Thompson and his vision of gamers as irredeemeable sociopaths. Thanks a bunch, Rockstar.20th July @ 6:52 am

SteveThompson claimed The Sims 2 had full nudity, but EA denies it. If it turns out that The Sims 2 does not contain any nudity, I hope EA sues this guy for everything he’s worth. He has committed libel and slander.23rd July @ 8:54 am

CalaquinThat was one of the best articles about this guy that I’ve read. Before I thought he was annoying based on some of his ridiculous claims, but now I see that he’s just an arrogant lawyer who thinks he knows everything. He’s not willing to hear another perspective on it even if it agrees with his own and that’s what’s ruining his chances of ever being heard by the gaming community.I have no trust in this man trying to protect America’s children.23rd July @ 3:20 pm

Tim KWhat a stupid asswipe… I sent him an email myself, regarding trying to get Sims 2 banned, because being able to remove the censor blur is ‘worse than Hot Coffee’ as it removes the kids blur, and it would be a pedophiles dream… And i fully agree with Steve23rd July @ 9:45 pm

KelmonThis might be a silly question, but has anyone passed the transcripts of these emails onto the professional media such that they can investigate (bodies such as The New York Times, BBC and others that are taken seriously)? It’s quite clear that Mr. Thompson has no intention of discussing his opinions and positions with “Joe Public” but I’m sure that he will have to clarify when requested for comment by the mainstream media. It might also be interesting to see the opinions of those that he would require support from in order to get any bill banning or regulating the gaming industry. I have no idea how the US system works so I’ll leave that up to anyone who fancies having a bash at this one.24th July @ 10:21 pm

SaadhKelmon, that seems like a very good idea. Jack Thompson has one of the most unprofessional responses that I could think of. I’d like to see a larger publication to look into this. I’m sure it could spark a bit of interest.25th July @ 3:25 am

sraI’ve seen responses like this from him to several different well-thought out emails. He doesn’t even bother to read them. Just sends back curt responses about gamers have no intelligence [seems quite fond of that oxymoron line] and doesn’t address any points made.26th July @ 5:39 am

Cypher of TyrHow pitiful. Your missives were well spoken and thought out. Too bad this man is on such a mission to prove that gamers are evil, gaming is a past time that will create killers and sociopaths and won’t even listen to advice on how to improve his arguments.May I post a link to this? I find it interesting and would like to share it in my blog as well with gamer friends.Thanks,Tanya26th July @ 7:12 am

JustChrisThompson’s not just afraid of games, he wants a total oligarchy. One that tells people what’s right and what’s wrong, regardless of the personal experience of the people in that oligarchy. It’s strange that there are people mandating laws regarding petty issues, such as video games, they have not experienced first hand.26th July @ 1:07 pm

CalebHe is just incredible. He’s completely blinded by his stereotypes and prejudices. He is just as bad as the KKK or any other hate groups. People like Jack Thompson who cannot argue a point in a dignified manner shouldn’t have a voice in politics at all.26th July @ 2:51 pm

KipsyHe’s no better than a racist, or homophobe. Your letters to him were well written, and he responded to you as if you were a moron, merely because you play video games.The ignorance that this guy is spouting is amazing. You should see what he has to say about The Sims 2. You can tell, just by reading thishttp://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html?tag=lastword_pc_headlinearticle, that he doesn’t even bother to see if what he’s saying is true, or flat-out lies.He claims The Sims 2 comes with full frontal nudity, including penis, pubic hair, and labia. Which is a lie. Buy the SIms 2, install it. You’ll see that the characters are behind a mosiac blur. Remove the blur, and they’re barbie dolls, no genetalia at all. Apparently somebody TOLD him this, and he couldn’t care less. He’s still right, even when it’s proven false. What a self-important, bigoted idiot.26th July @ 5:36 pm

Travis CarterI read the entire letter from Mr. Thompson, and to be honest, I wish I hadn’t. I will admit his argument starts out strong, mentioning that this is a nonpartisan problem. Sadly, his argument gets weaker as the letter progresses, going so far as to claim that Mr. Lowenstein’s founders are fictional characters. I kid you not, I had to struggle to finish it. Seriously, fraudulent and criminal excesses? The ESRB was CREATED as a compromise when this kind of controversy began. The industry has TRIED to police itself. The problem is, this kind of self-policing needs EVERYONE to work to its fullest. The parents are not doing their part, and it is at that level that the system falls apart.If you’ll allow me to relate one of my own childhood experiences, my mother let me play, and indeed own, Mortal Kombat II, well before the ESRB recommended age of 17. I even pointed this out to her, albeit after we had both decided to buy the game. I suggested to her that we return it after a few months, and she actually told me not to. She explained to me that she thought the game would help me get out my aggression; that is, by playing this game, I would NOT be inspired to attack real people. In this particular instance, she was right. The game helped give me the message “It’s OK to do this on your TV screen, but not in the real world.”While the above anecdote is certainly an extreme example in the opposite direction of Mr. Thompson’s letter, I believe it illustrates my point that, in the end, it IS the parents’ responsibility to make this kind of decision for their minor children. (For those that are sticklers for details, my parents were divorced by that time.) In this case, she made what she believed was the right choice, and I only hope that more parents will have the courage and wisdom to do the same. But, ten years of watching the post-ESRB industry, as well as limited firsthand experience, have taught me that many parents do not pay attention.In closing, I feel I must say that Mr. Thompson’s letter is, while quite long and citing some accurate sources, is largely an extended version of what many on the internet would consider a flame letter. It’s an embarrassment to both gamers and the Republican party, as it sounds as though it was written by a Democrat. That’s an issue for another thread, though. Thank you for listening to my long ramblings.26th July @ 6:32 pm

InfestedRabiteI sent this email to Thompson just now, and am awaiting a reply.Email starts from here down.I’ve read your website, www.stopkill.com, and I’ve seen the points behind your crusade.I just wanted to ask, you seem to be focused on the American game industry. What about overseas developers? You might be able to stop American kids from playing these games, but overseas, others will be exposed to these games. What is your opinion on that?Quoted from www.stopkill.com:In April 1999, eight days before Columbine, Jack Thompson appeared on national television to identify the role that shooter video games, specifically Doom, would play in future school shootings. A week later in Littleton, Colorado, Klebold and Harris, who obsessively trained on Doom, killed thirteen.I’ve read some articles about Harris, and his playing of Doom. I was first told of rumors that Harris had created levels for Doom based on the layout of Columbine High School, and played them. I looked into the matter further, and was told that Harris had created levels, but not ones based on the school. I don’t have the website where I got this information from, but should you choose to reply, I will look into it further.I’d hope that you would reply to this message.And that’s the end.Does anyone else have any information on the Harris/Doom/Columbine connection? I got my information from www.wikipedia.org, but I won’t tell him where unless he asks.26th July @ 7:50 pm

plagiariseI’ve been told by many that these are exactly the sort of responses ‘gamers’ always get and haven’t sent them on anywhere, but with this whole Sims 2 thing it feels like Jack’s blown a gasket. Ignored my advice and then ran off into the sun set laughing.I hope he realises that Ken and Barbie dolls can be defrocked and placed in sexual positions. The clothes they sell them in are an admission of guilt!Sue Mattel!The blur is there so that they don’t look stupid. If he wants to take on mods and therefore the whole internet, then he’s going to hit a brick wall. It still just pisses me off that he’s on TV talking about violence in games more than anyone else. Whatever his side on things, he’s definately the not the best educated person on the subject matter.26th July @ 11:06 pm

Jenecai CorvinaI’m… I’m shocked at this. Does he treat everyone like this, as an invalid without a third-grade education or the life-experience therein? I don’t understand why such a person has such movement with the american community… but he does, and there are people who agree with him a lot. It makes me sad that there are people like this…27th July @ 2:22 am

carnifexIt’s unbelieveable, not only that he thinks he can have a decent court case with attitudes like that, but that people like him actually exist.USPS free boxes anyone?27th July @ 4:55 am

mistamagooOh my god, am i glad i live in europe, a man like jack thompson would never even get into politics here. he would be in a mental institution. he sees conspiracies everywhere, and the guy apparently thinks he can make laws for all over the world or so, in europe even nuns laugh if they would see, this,why doesnt he make american woman wear burka’s or so, and forbids them to come out in the street, so man wont get tempted,A nipple on tv became a national scandal, now this, america is becoming more backwards than friggin afganistan or saoudi arabia.in europe, everyone understands that a adult naked body is not pornographic, i mean we all have one. are these people so scared of their own body or something ? just unbelievable.27th July @ 8:38 am

JustChrisSomeone told me that it’s dangerous to group all Europeans as accepting of public nudity, but that’s just me.Anyway, any games that support mods are automatically capable of having sexually explicit material. There were nude skins in the original Sims, to help players design their own clothes. That Sims game was also a big hit. Where was the scandal that time?Regarding the ESRB issue, I agree that parents aren’t holding up their end of the bargain to supervising and interacting their kids. If you don’t understand the games that they’re playing it’s more of a reason to participate with them. The lack of doing so is the cause of scapegoating and blind hate and ignorance to such activities. If you can participate in their little league softball game, how much harder is it to get in a session of Mario Kart once in a while?Parents seem to have less patience when they listen to their kid tutor them with something, than the other way around. At least, it’s how I see it.28th July @ 5:50 am

mistamagoo[quote]Someone told me that it’s dangerous to group all Europeans as accepting of public nudity, but that’s just me.[/quote]nudity on a tv or computer screen that the user self chose to install and see is something totally different than public nudity, and yes, on most west european beaches, you always see topless sunbathers, especially france and spain. and noone is bothered by a naked breast or so on tv.so your statement is totally wrong justchris28th July @ 8:32 am

ShepsTo quote Eurotrip: “You know America was founded by prudes, right?”I believe Mr. Thompson to be a direct line of that prudishness, a distilled prude, if you will.28th July @ 10:48 am