I just wanted to make an official announcement that Goodreads has added me on as a Moderator for this group (because Wendy and Michelle who so awesomely created the group have been absent for a year). Leea graciously offered to help me.

I just wanted to let you know in case you see changes in when you come visit the group. We'll be deleting old threads and rearranging folders and stuff. Trying to create something more orgnaized.

The only time we may close a current thread will be if we have one that's the same from previous. Then we'll be merging them together.

we'll also be creating a thread for suggestions. Please let us know if you'd like to see something in the group.

That's right, I did delete a bunch of duplicate threads. I did keep one thread for each of the books that had the most posts, but Outlander surprisingly didn't have one so I had to create a new one. (Or at least I didn't see one.)

Maybe because it's the first one and most of us joined the group well after we had read that one?

I know that I didn't comment on Outlander very much because it gets a little distant after reading all the other books. Now I am re-reading Outlander and I would gladly discuss it. I am enjoying it so much the second time around.

Question: when do you think Jamie first fell in love with Claire? and Clarie with Jamie?

I wondering if Jamie is in love with Claire the few days after their wedding and wedding night.They are on the hill over looking the inn that they are staying in. He speaks so lovingly to her. He tells her that he is feeling different. He says that he has held other women and kissed other women before and he says:

" it was verra pleasant indeed. Made my heart pound and my breath come short, but is wasna at all as it is when I take you in my arms and kiss you" "suddenly it's as though I've a living flame in my arms, and I want only to throw myself into it and be consumed".

Tina wrote: "When does she cry in his arms? Before of after they are married?

I wondering if Jamie is in love with Claire the few days after their wedding and wedding night.They are on the hill over looking ..."

Jamie admits that he loved Claire the first night they arrived at Castle Leoch and she allowed him to comfort her. Claire had just re-bandaged his shoulder (and traced the scars on his back for him). She started crying over Frank and her situation. Jamie gathered her in his arms and comforted her while she cried. Claire had that thought about if she were a horse she'd let him ride her anywhere (LOL) and then she realized he was "over-excited" and got off of his lap. He tells her not to be afraid of him and that he would protect her and look out for her. I love this scene.

After they were married and went to Lallybroch, Jamie admitted to Claire that he "wanted" her from the moment she bandaged him up at the cottage, but that he "loved" her from the moment he comforted her at the castle.

I absolutely love Janet "Jenny" Fraser Murry in Outlander. When Jamie takes Claire to Lallybroch Jenny is just a love. I love how she talks, how she cares for everyone, especially Jamie. She just loves him sooo much. She also takes Claire under her wing and cares for her like a sister. She is one of my favorite characters.. in this book.

As suggested by Wendy I copied below mentioned message from the Outlander Jan/Febr. discussion to this thread.

For more than one week there were no more suggestions here, do we run out of material for Outlander?

How glad I am that we've got a Febr. 29th this year, it's just in time for this one: Yesterday I finished my Outlander re- (do not know how many times!), this time by listening to the wonderful Davina Porter. I had the feeling that listening makes it many times harder to get through the Wentworth Prison section and its aftermath, than reading it to yourself. But then, just before the story turns to a happy ending, there it was - the pearl bracelet! It seemed to be lost somewhere in the depths of my memory, and after we learned who had given the pearl necklace to Jamie's mother Ellen some chapters earlier, MacRannoch sent the matching bracelet to Claire.

But what happened to this bracelet, does anybody know, did it ever turn up again? Whereas the necklace keeps being reported from time to time, I cannot remember what became of the bracelet.

I also seem to have lost track of the necklace, though. Having just finished Outlander, I recall it there. Claire must have taken it with her leaving Lallybroch, because she could try to barter it for help to free Jamie.

IN DIA (view spoiler)

I do not remember it ever being mentioned in Voyager. (view spoiler)

In DOA (view spoiler)

I do not know anything about it in Fiery Cross, it was back again in ABOSAA. (view spoiler)

And finally AEITB: where is it, with Claire or Briana - do we know? I certainly do not.

Lotte: I remember the bracelet, but now that you mention it, I don't remember what happened to it. Maybe in the group Dragonfly in Amber read we'll re-discover it? I'm about to do a word search thru my Kindle books to find it!

But a nagging something told me that *perhaps* (view spoiler)[the bracelet was sold in Dragonfly... (hide spoiler)] not sure, but now that you've got me wondering, I'll do the search.

As for the necklace, I thought that Bree still had it. She definitely had it (view spoiler)[ in Drums of Autumn when she left Lallybroch, because she snatched it away from Leoghaire, remember? (I never could figure out how L thought Jamie owed her 500 pounds, by the way)) And at her wedding in The Fiery Cross, I thought Bree was wearing the necklace. So I "assumed" that Bree just took it back with her through the stones. (hide spoiler)] But interesting question!

Oh, what a shame ! The spoiler thing does not work whan being copied. Sorry for that, mayby you could look in the other thread. I think we could still read it though not put messages any more, am I right?

Sandy, I've put this in my DIA-spoiler.

Lori, I looked up the ABOSAA bit, it is at the very beginning in chapter 34: (view spoiler)[ There we've also got the body's complete name, Lionel Brown. "On my mule Clarence, dressed and cloaked in indigo wool - which played up the paleness of my skin and beautifully highlighted the yellow and green of the healing bruises on my face - with my necklace of freshwater pearls about my neck ..." (hide spoiler)]

This is another interesting thing, what Jamie has to pay L. Though I can quite well remember most details of what I read, it is not true for figures. Maybe we should go back to Voyager and put down what they agreed on with Ned Gowan, no much better: this will be something for the Voyager reread, don't you think so?

Well I think it was a settlement for (view spoiler)[marrying Loaghaire when there was a chance Claire was alive. It was to prevent her from suing him for bigamy. Jamie said he was happy to pay it. His sense of responsibility was great. He swore to take care of her in front of an alter so he felt that he should still do it anyway, and Loaghaire's girls too. I may not like Jamie, but I thought that was a great testament to his character (hide spoiler)].

My issue with Leoghaire is in "Drums", so maybe we ougta move my comments and these answers there? But (view spoiler)[ when L tries to grab the pearl necklace from the table where Bree put it, L claims that she's owed $500 by Jamie. Now... to my recollection, Jamie agreed to pay L 100 pounds per annum as alimony (more or less, even tho they weren't legally married or hush money or pain and damages/suffering, if you will) PLUS Marsali's dowry PLUS Joanie's dowry. Marsali's dowry was paid out of the whisky money; since Marsali did most of the work, they got most of the profit - mentioned in ABOSSA before Claire is kidnapped. I also thought in Voyager that the bat guano money was part of M's dowry, but it might only have been for Fergus' upkeep, which Jamie also promised. (The promise to take care of him for life.) Gee, Jamie has lots of people depending on him for not being the laird anymore!

Joanie's dowry wasn't paid until Echo, when she worked out a deal with Ned Gowan for only a small portion of her dowry to go to the nunnery (which I assume won't happen in the Joanie-Michael Murray story) and the rest to go to her mom (L) on the condition that L marry crippled Joey Murphy. And Jamie was to be the one to dole out the remainder of Joanie's dowry portion at 20 pounds per annum.

But back to the issue about the 500 pounds... even if L thought she was to get Marsali's dowry (which doesn't make sense), I still can't figure out the 500 pounds. Unless L was trying to say that Jamie was in arrears? But Jamie and Claire had been selling off gems to pay L annually, at cost to themselves - especially when Jamie had to buy all those guns in The Fiery Cross. (hide spoiler)]

Small thing, but it bugged me when I read it again this time through.

And Wendy... if we move this thread, where does it go? Voyager? Drums? Fiery Cross? LOL - lots of mentions.

Lori wrote: "My issue with Leoghaire is in "Drums", so maybe we ougta move my comments and these answers there? But when L tries to grab the pearl necklace from the table where Bree put it, L claims that she's..."

Yes Lori, your issue is in DOA, but the origin of it is the deal made by Ned Gowan in Voyager. I again collected all my books around me and tried to trace this bit, it seems to be not as convenient as with a Kindle, though. But here it is:

Voyager, pages 585/6 (paperback), towards the end of 1766: (view spoiler)[ Here Ned Gowan suggests and Jamie accepts the following - Pounds 500 as compensation for disress, inconvenience,... Pounds 100/year for houshold maintenance... Pounds 300 each as bride-portion for the daughters

page 828: Jamie:"... half the profit of this cargo against the dowry I promised her." The amount seems to be rather vague; who knows the profit of a shipload of bat guano, and would "against the dowry" mean the whole Pounds 300 or just part of it?(hide spoiler)]

And then on to DOA, page 125, and June 1767: (view spoiler)[ Here they had sold the 2nd stone, the ruby: "...with money from the sale of the ruby at hand..." no amount being quoted

page 138: "... he had arranged to send the bulk of the proceeds from the sale of the stone to Scotland." also without an amount (hide spoiler)]

And finally to page 584 and June of the year 1769: (view spoiler)[ Here we've got your Pounds 500: remark by Ian "... you and Hobart...trying to squeeze Pounds 500 from me..."

Let's omit the bride-portions for the moment, they are not due to L. At this moment, June 1769, Jamie owes to L the "distress money" of Pounds 500 and Pounds 200 or 300 for the household maintenance per year, depending whether it had to be paid at the beginning or end of each year.

No wonder DG left it rather vague, giving neither figures for the sale of the stone nor what had actually been sent to L. But I think it could have made the Pounds 500, did you consider the "distress money"? (hide spoiler)]

Does anybody think DG expected the readers to keep track of the money being involved in this separation contract. But that's us! ... this might lead us to keeping track of "the stones" ...

RE Tina's question, I came at outlander cold, only having briefly read the blurb but never having heard of it otherwise, and I found I had no idea who the hero was was supposed to be until Claire and Jamie actually got married. I suspected Jamie would be a love interest but then Claire speaks of him like he's a child or a much younger brother. Did anyone else get this impression?

I came to Outlander cold too. At first, I thought maybe she was going to be Captain Jack Black and travel back and forth. I was definitely along for the ride on this one. Once it became obvious I was all about Jamie. Which I assume is what DG was going for and achieved--what a great writer.

I've just started re-reading Outlander and was wondering if DG knew before she started writing who Claire's hero would be or if the writing led her to Jamie. Either way I agree that DG is an incredible author

Sussann, that was part of the beauty of Outlander to me... that I wasn't sure the Jamie was the hero until I was well into the book and very much in love with him! He kinda snuck up on me, as I think he did with Claire.

And that, to me, was why I fell in love with Diana G's writing. There's always the unexpected, the sleeper person or event, the villain that just might be part human, and so on. She's not a black-and-white kinda person, and neither are her characters or her stories.

Sussann wrote: "I've just started re-reading Outlander and was wondering if DG knew before she started writing who Claire's hero would be or if the writing led her to Jamie. Either way I agree that DG is an incred..."

Well said Lori McD! I had to check the back cover of the book to see if Jamie was the love interest... Clair kept seeing that "nice young man" everywhere ;)

I don't see much posted since September, but thought I'd try a question....there seems to be many different opinions about the "violent" sex scene with Jamie and Claire just after he gives her the wedding ring in The Outlander. I have read and re-read this scene and my first reaction was that he was being cruel, but now I have come to the conclusion he loves her so fiercely that he needs to take her in the way he does to tell her she is his and his alone. What are other thoughts on this scene?

I never saw it as cruel, myself. They said some awful things to each other, and she had just told him that she had no claim on him if he wanted to be with someone else. I think it just made him feel like he needed to show her the claim on each other.

I admit that I wasn't all that comfortable with that scene the first time I read it, either. Which made me read and re-read that scene a few times to try to figure it out.

I concluded that Jamie & Claire are both very physical people; they tend to express their deepest feelings through touch - and between them, sex. They were both angry and dealing with a lot of their own personal emotional baggage. Claire wasn't quite willing to admit to herself that she could and did love Jamie; she was still conflicted about Frank and feeling very vulnerable. I think she was afraid that perhaps Jamie was only saving his own skin and wanting sex from their marriage.

That scene, as tough as it might be, IMO cemented their commitment to one another. Claire didn't exactly surrender, but she did. Jamie did claim her, but she claimed him, too. And I loved their thoughts when it was over... what Jamie said to her about mastering her, but she'd mastered him, too. And then Claire thinks to herself that Jamie gets it like Frank never did. Wow!

Help! Can someone tell me the last scene in Outlander? I think I finished the book but am not quite sure. At the end of mine, there is a preview of DIA. I didn't want to tell what I had because I don't know who is on their first reading or 100th.

I am on read #2 of this book (I convinced my husband to read it, so we're reading it together, one chapter at a time) so I am looking forward in joining in the discussion. As far as the rest of the series, I have read DIA, V and DOA...stopped at TFC to give my brain a break!

In my opinion:

Jamie wanted Claire from the first moment she started touching him to bandage his wounds...pretty much right after they met, but as he said, he was burning pretty badly, right? He said later that he loved her from the first time he held her in Castle Leoch shortly after their arrival when she is like, well, yes, no, Frank's dead, I don't know, and just falls apart when she realizes the situation she is in.

As for Claire...well, let's be honest. She kept looking for any excuse to see him from the get-go. Remember the time she went down to the stable to take him food and look at his shoulder and then realized that oops, she forgot to check it? Who could blame her really...between Frank and Jamie, it's no contest on the hotness scale and Jamie is a LOT closer to her age than Frank. As far as the love...well, I think something stirred in her when he said that she had the protection of his body (I mean, let's be honest, that's freaking HOT), she realized she really cared when she walked away to go back to the stones and ended up being captured by the English. The connection that Jamie GOT it and Frank didn't really smacked her in the head. She then finally admitted that she loved him in the thieves' hole. The deal was cemented when she turned back from the stones when he released her and told her to go.

As far as that sex scene after he gives her the ring...well...she DID say that a little pain isn't necessarily a bad thing and she IS the teacher, so who could blame wee Jamie for going after his 23-year-old impulses? Bwahahahaha!!!! I don't think Claire was complaining too much after it got going!

And yeah. I HATE LAOGHAIRE. What a freaking see-you-next-Tuesday.

With that, I look forward to joining in the discussion. :) If we can, please mark any references to TFC (or any of the other books) as spoiler since I haven't read it yet.

Sussann wrote: "RE Tina's question, I came at outlander cold, only having briefly read the blurb but never having heard of it otherwise, and I found I had no idea who the hero was was supposed to be until Claire a..."

Me too. I had heard about Outlander but didn't really know much other than Claire travels back in time. Two years ago I got a Nook for Christmas and not long after that Outlander was free for Nook. SO I snatched it up and started reading. This is gross to think of now but I thought that maybe Dougal was going too be her love interest. I was picturing Jamie as being too young.

i 'read' the series on audible.com with an amazing narrator. i bought it b/c it was on sale.and long, so a good long listen while i was running.. . and that was it.. i was hooked .. Jamie's mixture of warrior and innocence is charming and captivating

Agreed. Dougal was always a tough character to just toss into the "evil" category. His tactics where reprehensible, but you can't say the dude didn't have conviction. He, to me, was the perfect embodiment of Scottish Pride (for the times).

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