posted
Ok, a little about me: I'm 20 yrs old, female and gay. I'm not religious, instead I'm here because I'm hoping you good people can help me with my uni work. As much as I may not agree with some of your views I'm not here to attack, so I'm hoping for the same from you. I'm doing my dissertation on homosexuality in sport, therefore I'm looking at issues such as homophobia, and why it's not accepted by some people. So I thought I'd get the religious point of view, and see if I can possibly change your minds on the topic of homosexuality - afterall, some people believe feelings of attraction can be changed, so why not opinions?!

Below are a set of questions, or just general points I wish to make. If you agree with anything I say please say so, or feel free to answer the questions.

a)I found one website claiming that homosexuality can't be healthy because suicide rates are higher, has anyone ever thought that maybe its opinions like that that cause the suicide? People get depressed because they realise they can't help who they are, but they get attacked for it, both physically and verbally, and told that they're wrong.

b)Alot of groups claim to be able to 'cure' homosexuality, how can feelings change? If you were told to stop loving your partner just because a group of people thought your love was wrong, do you think you would be able to do it?

c)Homophobia - People get beaten up, rejected by friends and family, all because of who they're attracted to. Some people are murdered because of it, and one case study reported of a 4 year old boy who was tortured, beaten, starved and finally murdered by his mum because she thought he was gay. How can you tell gay people they're wrong and need to change, when we're fighting against homophobia to prevent innocent people being attacked? If you believe homosexuality is wrong, do you agree with people being murdered and beaten for it?

d)Alot of religious websites I found claim it's a choice, or an addiction. When you realise you're gay you have to deal with homophobia, being attacked if you want to hold hands with your partner, coming out to friends and family and being told by the ones you love that you're wrong and should be ashamed - how can anyone claim that being gay is a choice?!

e)Have any of you ever known a gay person? If so did/do you accept their sexuality or would you rather not know them?

f)The world and society is changing, and people are becoming more open to homosexuality. I know many straight people who will happily go for a night out in a gay bar because they know they'll have a trouble free night. Also, how often do you hear of a gay person commiting kidnap, murder or rape? Do those points not suggest what friendly people the gay community are? Yet we still get told that we're wrong because of who we'd rather share a bed with.

g)One website I found gave help on what to do in order to help a gay person, it said something along the lines of "See a person, not a homosexual"...Is that not slightly hypocritical? If they're saying that, why can't they see a person instead of a 'sin'? You don't hold groups to try and change peoples skin colour, and we're taught that to treat people of another race differently is wrong because we're all the same deep down. So why treat homosexuals different just because of who they're attracted to?

Ok thats all for now. Please note I'm not directing these questions personally to any of you, if I've said the word 'you' I mean religion as a whole, the websites I found didn't have a message board where I could voice my opinion - so I was hoping you could shed some light on the issues I've raised.
Posts: 9 | From: Southampton | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Here is my take on the subject:For centuries the Christian Church has discriminated against and persecuted homosexuals for their sexual orientation, viewing them as an abomination. Poet Louie Crew, tired of having to hide who he was, became the voice for the homosexual. He founded Intregrity, a not for profit organization for the inclusion and acceptance of homosexuals in the Christian circle and has made leaps and bounds for his cause. He has stood firm in the face of adversity and has openly and proudly declared that he is a homosexual and a Christian. According to his interpretation of scripture, he believes that homosexuality is not a sin and therefore feels repentance is not necessary. His adversaries, predominately religious leaders, vehemently disagree. So what is the answer? Is homosexuality a sin? Or is it a lifestyle accepted by Christ? Proponents for the acceptance of homosexuals proclaim that no where in the bible does it say that a committed and consensual homosexual relationship between two people is a sin. In fact, many refer to the book of Samuel in the Old Testament which details the intimate relationship between Jonathan and David. One passage in particular discusses David's lamentation over Jonathan who has fallen in battle. "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me. Your love to me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women." (Spirit Filled Bible, 2 Samuel 1:26) The original Hebrew word for love (Ahabah) in this passage means: love, of man toward himself, of man between man, between man and woman, sexual desire, or God's love to His people. On the other hand, the bible has many passages declaring homosexuality to not only be a sin but an abomination, detestable in the eye's of the Lord. One verse in particular, states "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination." (Spirit Filled Bible, Leviticus 18:22) The book of Leviticus goes on to further discuss sexual immorality and the wages of sexual sin. Given this information, under Levitical law, David and Jonathan would have been stoned to death if they were homosexuals (Spirit Filled Bible, Leviticus 18:22 - 30, 20-13). So, who is right? Well, there really is no clear cut answer to that question. But I know this, the Lord commands that we are "To be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32). Often times we need to agree to disagree in order to move forward. "For the Lord searches all our hearts, and understands all the intent of our thoughts." (Spirit Filled Bible, 1 Chronicles 28:9).
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We realize that with the growing popularity and glamorization of homosexuality, that this subject can be a very difficult one to address. Furthermore, as hate crimes specifically committed against homosexuals occur, many feel that this issue shouldn't be addressed at all for fear of only adding to the hostile environment that many homosexuals face. Despite the cultural climate in which we live, this issue must be addressed according to the Word of God. God's laws are always for our good, although man may see them as restricting. In the end, only obedience to the Word of God can bring true freedom. We address this issue out of God's love for the homosexual to bless and help him.

Much of our society has embraced many perverted sexual practices that are considered in the Bible as abominations to God. Homosexuality is among the list of deviate or abnormal sexual practices however, there are many other practices that can be included as well. Pornography, pedophilia, prostitution, bestiality, oral sex, phone sex and computer virtual reality sex, just to name a few of them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Although the Bible doesn't detail each and every one of these sinful acts, it does clearly speak out about many of them. Any deviation from God's original plan for sex between a married man and woman is still a sin in God's eyes. The main reason we call these things perverted is because they are unnatural and scripture clearly tells us those who do such things are committing abominations. Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."

Homosexuality is also referred to as the sin of sodomy. This reference comes from an account in the Bible of two exceedingly wicked cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, which the Lord destroyed. Sodom was known for its rampant homosexuality and unrestrained sexual lust, as well as other sins such as arrogance, haughtiness, and disregard for the poor. When the Lord sent angels to warn Lot who lived in the city that it was about to be destroyed, the men of the city actually wanted to rape the angels! Genesis 13:13: "But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly."

In the Old Testament the penalty for this sin was severe. Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Today the penalty of death comes in the form of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. It also brings death to the soul and spirit of man because the life of God is pushed out by indulging in something that is an abomination to God. God wants to deliver all who are trapped in this unholy practice and He will if anyone calls out to Him with a sincere heart.

Romans 1:24-32:

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

These scriptures clearly state that these vile affections of men lusting for other men (gay men) or women lusting for other women (lesbians) are not the natural affections God created men and women to have for one another. Let me say here that God loves all homosexuals! However, He hates the deeds of homosexuality because they are sinful. God did not create any human being as a homosexual. They are not born that way, just as murderers are not born that way. However, these spirits can be transmitted to children, especially if someone who had this demonic spirit seduced or raped a child--or even if they were close to gay people. These demons can also be imparted to others through unholy sexual acts.

People become homosexuals because they yield to abnormal acts or lust. It is through some source that they have received a demonic spirit that drives them to their lust. Viewing evil videos or pornographic books is a way of opening the door for Satan to give one an evil, perverse spirit. Though people are not born as homosexuals, the Bible does say all human beings are born with a sin nature. If we yield to the evils of our flesh it will lead to our destruction not only in this life, but in the life to come. However, through faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross we can break the hold that sin has upon us. We do not have to yield to the old fleshy nature but we can now overcome evil temptations and live our lives controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Sex is God's idea and its purpose is not only for procreation, but also for recreation and the development of a deep relationship between man and woman. Nothing is wrong or dirty about sex when it is engaged in the bonds of marriage as the Lord commanded in the Bible. However, when perversions are committed inside the marriage relationship, this can be sinful also. God made man and woman and brought them together "face to face." Oral sex is of homosexual origin that replaces the normal "face to face" relationship God intended in a marriage. The Bible describes the sex act in Song of Solomon Chapter 4. In this chapter it speaks of this "face to face" relationship by describing looking into his lover's eyes and kissing his lover's lips and fondling his lover's breasts. Oral sex is not normal or natural as it is an unclean act.

No one has to live in bondage with an abnormal life of homosexuality nor any other abnormal behavior. No one has to be controlled by pornography. No one has to have evil thoughts plague their minds. There is a way out through what Jesus has done for us. He loves sinners and wants to free us from any evil practices. He will empower those who cry out for deliverance to get free and stay free. Here are the steps you must take to get free:

(1.) Make a total commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ. Be willing to turn your life completely over to the will of God and yield to His plan for your life. This means you must be willing to do anything, go anywhere and give up any thing as He leads. Remember, God will never lead you to do anything that is not in agreement with the Bible. You can trust God. He created you and has a better plan for your life.

(2.) Your must pray and read your Bible daily. You must study and apply the Word of God to overcome Satan's attacks. The way that you resist the attacks of the devil is by quoting the Word of God to him. When the devil came to tempt Jesus, He simply quoted the Word to him. Good praise tapes will also be of a great help when you are tempted. Put one on and start singing along with it.

(3.) You must pray for and seek out a strong Bible believing group of Holy Spirit filled people. You will need their help and fellowship. As you humble yourself and seek help, the Lord will deliver you. Ask God to lead you to someone that can pray the prayer of deliverance for you, as you probably will need to be set free from a demon. You should also seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit as you will need His power to get free and to remain free.

(4.) You must cut off all sources and relationships that would lead you back into sin. The Bible tells us to flee fornication (sexual sins). You must get out of any corrupt entanglements, or areas that you know will be a temptation to you. If you have been hooked on internet pornography subscribe to an Internet Service Provider that will filter out the pornography for you. Destroy all evil books and videos.

(5.) Should you slip or fall back occasionally, repent and get right back up and go on with God. Do not allow the devil to condemn you once you have repented. Put your sin under the blood of Jesus. He will strengthen you and you will win this battle because of the Lord's promise to you. Remember, He loves you and is there to help you. Run to Him when you get in trouble, never run from Him. He will not ever give up on you! We too, will be standing with you for your total healing and deliverance. Philippians 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

(6.) You must forgive everyone that has ever hurt you. You can only do this through the power of God. You must by a simple act of your will voice the forgiveness and then the Lord will give you the feeling of forgiveness. This may be a while in coming but just keep forgiving when you think of any wrong that has been done to you. The Lord will give you His love for those people who have wronged you.

Prayer for Deliverance

Finally we want to pray for you right now if you need it:

Dear Heavenly Father,

We come to you in the mighty name of Jesus and we ask that you touch this one right now, first of all with your love and forgiveness. Lord, wash their sins away. Wash away all the uncleanness and guilt. Lord we ask you to free them right now from the powers of darkness.

Now, we speak to Satan and his demons and we command them to leave in the name of Jesus! Satan, this one is no longer under your power. The blood of Jesus has set them free! We resist you and you must flee! This one belongs to God and you have no more authority over them! Be gone!

Dear Lord, thank you that you have set this one free and we are believing that you will lead them to the right people that will help them to walk out this deliverance. We break every chain of iniquity over their life and cancel every evil word that has been spoken against them. We declare they will walk in your victory and that you will enable them to do it. Lord, fill them with your Holy Sprit and guide them in the ways of God! We speak blessing and success to them. Most of all, we pray that they will feel your love for them right now. We ask this all in the precious name of Jesus. Amen.

If you need further help, email us or you can get help from the ministries listed below: (Please go to these links so you do not have to struggle with this issue alone.)

Desert Streams: http://www.desertstream.orgThis is a California-based Christian organization which offers programs for people seeking sexual and relational wholeness and healing.

Pure Life Ministries: http://www.purelifeministries.orgThey are out of Kentucky. They have a great workbook on repentance that may be able to help you.They can be reached at:Pure Life MinistriesP.O. Box 410Dry Ridge, KY 41035(800) 635-1866 (To Request Information and Applications)(859) 824-4444 (Office)E-Mail: info@purelifeministries.org

posted
Quote: "People become homosexuals because they yield to abnormal acts or lust. It is through some source that they have received a demonic spirit that drives them to their lust. Viewing evil videos or pornographic books is a way of opening the door for Satan to give one an evil, perverse spirit."

----------hi, I've been away from this board for several years. Testing the waters at other christian websites.

Homosexuals complain about christians putting the pressure on them, but the shoe is on the other foot now, with christians being thought as narrow-minded, and many of the political, media, and entertainment leaders supporting greater freedoms of sexual deviations. But have those involved in sexual liberation, considered that occult forces might be infiltrating, and taking captive of their souls?

A possible explanation for babies born with homosexual tendencies might be the sins of the parents, just as cocaine addiction or AIDS is sometimes transferred to the child. The sexual revolution may’ve seemed like fun without a price, but homosexuality, divorces, abortions, and other social traumas, may’ve been a result. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

There’s a verse in the bible that indicates that in heaven there are both male and female angels, so it’s natural for there to be male and female in the human race.

Jesus said “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened unto you.”

posted
Skippy you have gotten the biblical side of why homosexuality is sin and wrong and I agree with Caretaker's well written post. However, I would like to address the homophobia part of your post.

Many Christians that I know are not homophobic. I would never ridicule you for your preference even though I wouldn't agree that what you do is right from the biblical stand point. I love and accept all people, but I will openly discuss my beliefs at the same time, while listening to what others have to say also. My neighbor is a Pagan witch and I'm very friendly with her and I bring her food all of the time, but I don't visit her in her house because I don't want to be around the demonic influence that is there.

So, I'm not homophobic, but I do believe that homosexuality is a sin. I also believe that Christians are to show love to ALL people, even those that live a lifestyle we don't accept as being healthy.

I think that it's easy for people to label others as homophobic just because they feel homosexuality is wrong, but there is a huge difference. Homophobia is someone that has a hatred or fear of homosexuals. Most of us don't have either. We just know that the bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination to the Lord. We can not pretend to support this lifestyle when we know it's a definite sin to God.

Often people turn away from Jesus because they don't want to know the truth. However, if you turned to Jesus instead, you would find an incredible, unconditional love that compares to nothing else in this world. Jesus loves you unconditionally, but homosexuality is a sin and He can not look into your heart and see that sin since He is perfect and pure.

So in answer to your question, it isn't about homophobia at all, it's about SIN!

posted
Hey Carmela, thanks for your post that's really helped. Just one thing, you mentioned that people turn away from Jesus, I don't turn away from him... I don't turn to him, I'm not religious so I don't believe. But do you believe that if someone was to turn to him then they wouldn't be homosexual? If so I'd like to re-address part B of my post about feelings of attraction.

I'm under the impression that christians believe homosexuality is a choice, but is it more of a case that you believe its an evil spirit controlling the way you think?
Posts: 9 | From: Southampton | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Don't mind me, just talking to myself. Most christians as well as medical science prefer to abstract the basis of homosexuality, and avoid occult powers as a reason. By saying that it's sin, and that faith in Jesus can take away the sin is valid, but it can be very disillusioning if nothing happens. On the other hand, medical science is trying to get around any spiritual force by saying that it's probably genetic and environmental. But their theories don't change anything either.

In the current generation, with books and movies like Harry Potter and the Hobbits, young people are becoming more aware of the possible effects of an occult world.

After WWII many people turned their hearts away from Christ -- "how can a loving God allow such devastation, we'll do it our own way?" But without Christ, the occult forces had much less spiritual resistance, and quietly infiltrated, just like a rotten apple in a basket of apples, or like terrorist operatives sabotaging physical and social infrastructures.

That's why I posted the verse "Seek and you shall find...." based on a true relationship with Christ, just as good parents will try their best to work out a difficult problem for their children. But Christ has more power, because He's the king of kings and lord of lords.

posted
Caretaker and Carmela, very good posts! JohnL., that is a very plausible explanation and if you look at Romans 1 it could be talking to all of us and at this time and not just to individuals. It's a way of looking at it that I had not fully realized.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Whatever explanation the world wants to give it, it is a spiritual battle that is being waged. We can all ,humanly speaking, justify our words/actions to suit us. Sooner or later we will ALL face judgement whether we choose to believe it or not. And although it may seem that we are making no choice, in reality we are. It's true with everything in life. Practically speaking by not choosing to buy a car for example, you are choosing not to.

Judges chapter 19 is an interesting passage on this as well. Look at what these men did to the man's concubine. Also in the case of Sodom & Gomorrah Lot offered his virgin daughters so they would not harm the angels. One really need look no further than the Catholic church today to see what homosexuals are capable of doing to others. They are not all so happy, gentle, nonviolent...

Bottomline it is sin and if not dealt with in our hearts in this life, it will eventually be dealt with by God. But God loves us with love unfathomable no matter who we are or what we have done...Thank God! He is not willing that any should perish in Hell.

Btw, someone here posted about David/Jonathan. That was not a homosexual relationship and the Bible in no way states that it was. God's Word is not contradictory. He merely described feelings and there is alot more to relationships than the physical.
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posted
Skippy most Christians believe that there is only one Jesus and when someone chooses not to believe, it means that they have basically turned their backs on Jesus. Some don't even realize they are doing this.

quote:But do you believe that if someone was to turn to him then they wouldn't be homosexual? If so I'd like to re-address part B of my post about feelings of attraction.

I know several people that were homosexual and when they accepted the Lord, they did change. Totally. In fact one person I know preaches in my area in Vermont where I'm actually from, about how homosexuality is a sin, it's a choice and it often stems from some type of abuse a person suffered in their life which caused them to turn to homosexuality. In some cases of people he talked to, the people were abused as children and didn't even realize it was the determining factor that caused them to be gay. I heard a preacher on the radio once that said he was once gay and although he is now married and has children and has no desire to be gay, he is drawn to gay bars still. He doesn't go to them because he knows that if he does, then he will probaby fall but he said his attraction isn't to males but to the atmosphere that use to be so familiar to him. I guess each case is different. However, I do believe that it can be stopped but sometimes a person needs prayer, counseling or even a friend to help them and to hold them accountable.

As far as feelings of attraction, I can't answer that from a homosexual perspective but I can answer it from my perspective. See, Jesus taught that when we are married we are to be faithful to only one husband. A heterosexual person will sometimes use excuses as to why they feel it's right to divorce their spouse for another partner or to have an affair. I'm 38 now so I know this struggle. However, I have made a choice to stay faithful to my husband and although I was once in a tempting situation where I was drawn to another Christian man, I didn't act on that temptation. My husband wasn't a Christian and he later had an affair and left me, but he didn't know of my temptation so it had nothing to do with it. I had to make up my mind not to let my imagination get carried away which would cause me to stumble. I also had to choose not to put myself into a situation with this person that would tempt me. It was a choice I had to make and although it wasn't an easy one at first, to this day I'm glad I made it.

quote: I'm under the impression that christians believe homosexuality is a choice, but is it more of a case that you believe its an evil spirit controlling the way you think?

I don't believe that this is always the case, but yes I do believe that sometimes homosexuality is caused by an evil spirit. My cousin experienced this once. She made love with a man and something was imparted into her and she came to me because all of a sudden she could see that she was different and she didn't understand why. She started thinking things she never use to think and obsessed over things she never use to struggle. I prayed with her and taught her about taking authority over those spirits. When the thoughts came back she told them to leave and called out to Jesus and she had to do this a couple of times and then they left her and it all stopped. So I do believe that there are spirits imparted into some people.

However, homosexuality can also be caused from abuse as I discussed earlier. In those cases it isn't always an evil spirit. At the same time, there could have been an evil spirit imparted into a person by an abuser and the person may never realize it until they are told about it. Abuse can kill a person's spirit inside. By this I mean that when a person is abused they are changed forever. I say this from experience. I was abused in all ways imaginable and sex abuse started when I was six. Although I didn't become homosexual, it affected every aspect of my life. I hated myself, blamed myself, struggled with depression, didn't trust anyone, the list goes on and on.

I know this is long, I hope it answered some of your questions. I also hope you know that I'm not condemning you. Although I feel homosexuality is a sin, I also know that you were created by God and he loves you and accepts you very much. He doesn't like the sin, but He loves you as a person. The bible says He knew you even before you were conceived because He planned you.

Homosexuality is a demon spirit. Many people receive it when they are very young through abuse or some adults's sins toward them, and that's why so many homosexuals feel they were born with that desire.

One's feelings can change when they are delivered of this demonic spirit, but they must be able to agree with God of the Bible and that homosexuality is a sin, to be delivered.

Many homosexuals do get saved, but still cling to the belief that they are "born" that way and never seek deliverence and strugggle all their lives with this and often will give up on God or just makes excuses and they do suffer.

God Loves all people in spite of whatever sin they struggle with and He send His Son , Jesus as a way to be an overcomer in all things.

I've been delivered of a spirit of depression and I thought I was just born that way, until I was delivered, and then it was just gone. I thought it was part of my personality, but it wasn't. That's how one's "feelings" can change in these situations. Power of Jesus and one must be willing to agree with God.
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posted
Another great post WhiteEagle. You reminded me of something. Being raised in abuse or alcoholism or drug addiction and/or other dysfunctional situations has a devastating affect on us. Partly because as WhiteEage said, it becomes normal to us. Often people that are physically abused end up with a partner that physically abuses them. The same is true with alcoholism and others. However in reality, there is nothing "normal" about that at all.

When someone is raised believing that homosexuality is ok, it becomes normal. God specifically said that He created man and woman together and He even went as far as to say He did not intend a woman to lie with a woman or a man to lie with a man. So, as far back as the beginning of creation, homosexuality was not considered normal.

Today, society is trying as hard as possible to make homosexual relationships acceptable. It is trying just as hard to make clothing acceptable that is extremely revealing and causes others to lust. Even young children are wearing this type of clothing. In fact, someone gave my daughter a My Scenes doll and she said, "mom can you believe how she is dressed?" At age 9, I wasn't expecting my daughter to even realize how bad todays styles are but she did and she changed her dolls clothes and then showed me how much nicer she looked. This just goes to show that even toys are made to have a negative influence on our children.

We can't just sit back allow our society to go down hill like this. I just wish I knew what I could do to take part in changing things. I have done my part by teaching my daughter and she will help influence her generation, but there must be more we can do.

quote:Originally posted by Study: One question.Why is it a gay female is never attractive to a gay male and a gay male is never attractive to a gay female?

Can anybody answer this?

Do you mean gay women aren't attracted to gay men? Maybe because gay women aren't attracted to men full stop, doesn't matter what their sexuality is! But they can be seen as attractive, although I'm gay I know a good looking man when I see one, gay or straight... I just feel no desire to be with them.

Someone mentioned homosexuality is a choice, and I can't stress more strongly that it isn't. I don't see how someone who's straight can suggest thats it's through choice when they don't experience it. Believe me its such a harder life the stress you have to go through because you're different, no one would choose to be this way. Alot of people suggest its because of abuse, I wasn't abused, infact I know of very few gay people who were, so that can't be seen as a reason.

posted
Thanks for answering that question Skippy01. It was just a question I have always asked within myself and a few others within a conversation on this subject. No one has ever been able to give me an answer that made any sense.

Homosexuality is a demon spirit. Many people receive it when they are very young through abuse or some adults's sins toward them, and that's why so many homosexuals feel they were born with that desire.

One's feelings can change when they are delivered of this demonic spirit, but they must be able to agree with God of the Bible and that homosexuality is a sin, to be delivered.

Many homosexuals do get saved, but still cling to the belief that they are "born" that way and never seek deliverence and strugggle all their lives with this and often will give up on God or just makes excuses and they do suffer.

God Loves all people in spite of whatever sin they struggle with and He send His Son , Jesus as a way to be an overcomer in all things.

I've been delivered of a spirit of depression and I thought I was just born that way, until I was delivered, and then it was just gone. I thought it was part of my personality, but it wasn't. That's how one's "feelings" can change in these situations. Power of Jesus and one must be willing to agree with God.

The choice to commit a sexual sin has nothing what so ever to do with clinical depression or demons.~IMHO~

I became friends with a beautifull lady and was greatly attracted to her phyisical beauty at first. She did not wear a ring so I assumed available for courting/marrage.

The more we talked the more I fell in trust with her and her with me. Till one day she told me she was still married.

This put me into a great inter conflict of Spirit and Soul.

Right away I knew I was in violation of thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife and comiting adultery in my heart. For I had marrage in my heart at the time but now this was a sin because of the light that had been shed.

I have been alone for more years than I care to say and the "Fellings"did greatly challange my resolve to do the right thing.

She is in process of a divorce. Yet I will not be part of the destruction of another mans family, whose innocent children are most important.

Yet I crave our closeness and found myself needing to see her smile each day when I went thru the line she took care of.

No demons here. Just some difficult Biblically correct decisions that needed to be made, no matter how hard it hurts to do.

I think this may be the fight that a born~again brother or sister in Christ must face each hour of each day in these same sex attractions.

I have not been delivered from my Souls fellings for this woman but by the Grace of God, I will suffer thru the pains of doing what is Biblically correct, till I am.

I know I may be most miserable for a time , yet in My Christ will I trust.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

I now pray that this lady be given more Grace and that her husband turn arround and remember the day they did first hold hands.

posted
Lol, thanks WildB... everyone's being really helpful. And thanks for your story, just one question... This lady you mentioned, you resisted temptation because she was married and therefore couldn't pursue your feelings. But if she's getting a divorce, does the future not looking promising for you two once the divorce is out the way? I'm not well up on what the bible says about divorce and remarriage!

Oh, and I completely agree with your first comment:"The choice to commit a sexual sin has nothing what so ever to do with clinical depression or demons"Thanks Posts: 9 | From: Southampton | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Skippy01: Lol, thanks WildB... everyone's being really helpful. And thanks for your story, just one question... This lady you mentioned, you resisted temptation because she was married and therefore couldn't pursue your feelings. But if she's getting a divorce, does the future not looking promising for you two once the divorce is out the way? I'm not well up on what the bible says about divorce and remarriage!

Oh, and I completely agree with your first comment:"The choice to commit a sexual sin has nothing what so ever to do with clinical depression or demons"Thanks

I like you Skippy01,

So I will answer your ~Q~ Well Let me make this very clear that I do not wan't her to break up the family, im lying. I am very lonely and her presence meet's my need as a partner for life.

Part of me wan'ts her to do the wrong thing, in which my temperal needs will be met.

What is that and who does it really serve?

Oh~being alone so long does tend to set asside the Laws of God. (hint)

1. [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 2. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

posted
The social conflicts that WildB and Skippy01 have written about shows that in this world, there isn’t the perfect holiness of God that’s in eternal heaven, where the angels (I think both male and female) live in harmony and purity. And man has tried both mechanically and mystically to try to harmonize with the world and each other, but have completely failed.

The question of sin isn’t just homosexuality or adultery, but man’s separation from God the Creator and heavenly father. Jesus like the good shepherd is looking for His lost sheep, in times where the dark powers of sin, lust and violence are strong, but true believers in Christ are like lighthouses in a stormy sea, to light the way for storm-tossed souls. And there are many counterfeit lights to steer the ship astray, but Jesus knows how to call His own.

From the song “Softly and Tenderly” –“Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling, calling for you and for me.See on the portals He’s waiting and watching, watching for you and for me. “Come home, come home, ye who are weary come home. Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling, calling O sinner, come home.” (by Will L. Thompson)

posted
Skippy I would like to ask you a question. You don't have to answer in the forum because I don't want to put you on the spot and it's just something to think about.

I have a 10 year old daughter and I try to be a good mom so that the legacy I leave behind for her will be a good one.

As I was reflecting on this one day I started to wonder something. This is the question for you, that I had pondered on a while back.

If you are right and there is no God, you probably feel like you have nothing to lose right?

What if you are wrong and there is a God? What if some day you have or adopt a child and you teach that child that there is no God. Then, you die and realize you were wrong and there is a God. What legacy are you leaving behind for your child that will some day die and if someone else hasn't witnessed to him/her, she too misses out on the promises that God gives to us? A promise for a perfect body, a new life that no longer knows anything bad or pain, to live for an eternity in paradise, and there are more also! Or how about the people that you talked to and said there isn't a God, only to find out there is and your conversation with them caused them to make the wrong choices also?

I use to ask myself these questions a lot. I use to wonder what would I lose if I chose not to believe in God. If I believe in God and there isn't one, then I lose nothing because I spent every day of my life working toward becoming a better person. A person that lives by values and standards that I can be proud of and proud to share with my daughter. BUT....If I find out there really is a God (and I believe there is)then I miss out no His promises. I miss out on the gifts that He has for me and I end up tormented eternally instead as Revelations talks about. I don't follow God out of fear, I follow and believe in God because He loved me first, and I love Him back. However, I also wouldn't want the legacy I leave for my family and friends to be one of eternal torture.

As a Christian, we often have to make adjustments in our lives and stop doing the things we want to do and start doing the right things. It often requires a sacrifice and I think that sometimes that is why people decide that they don't want to be a Christian. I can tell you this though, the sacrifices have all been worth it. I have been rewarded already for the sacrifices I have made because God is a real God and He blesses us, even today. He loves us because we are His children. He has provided for all of our needs and that is only a portion of what keeps us desiring to follow Him.

Firsly, I'm very open to beliefs, religion etc. Last year my dad started going to a new modern church and took me along one sunday so I could see what it's like. He never used to be religious, so I figured if he enjoys it then why not give it a try? I didn't go along intending to become religious, I just thought I'd see what the modernised church meetings are like. I enjoyed it, everyone was really friendly and welcoming, however some of the stories people told and everything that was said I found a bit far fetched and hard to believe. I'm not saying there isn't a God, who really knows? I just choose not to devote my life to something that people have no real evidence over. I'm happy with my life, I'm in a happy relationship, have great friends and I make the most of things, living life to the full... which I think is more important.No doubt, one day I will have/adopt a child, and I won't teach him/her that God doesn't exist, I'll let them make their own decision as to whether they believe or not. Similarly, I don't tell anyone else that God doesn't exist, and I never have. I know a few religious people, one being a vicar who's a good friend of the family, and another a very good friend of mine... He knows I don't believe, and has openly told me I'm going to hell for my sins. I don't take it personally because I know he don't mean it like that, but he has his opinions and I have mine.

If, when I die it turns out there is a God and I'm going to hell, well then not much I can do by that point! But if everything that you and others have listed is actually a sin, then I've a feeling I'll be seeing alot of my friends there! Sorry if this appears I'm not taking your question seriously, I am... All I mean by this is that I'm a very laid back person, what happens happens. I'm extremely happy with the way my life is now, so I wouldn't want to change that on the off chance of something happening when I die.

posted
Some of these posts are very sensitive and thought-provoking, while I plod through like a voice in the wilderness, not the J the B version.

The longer a seeker waits, the harder it might be to find the way, as the modern church is kind of losing the thread of true faith in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. New Age occult ideas are being incorporated into some "progressive" churches.

With so many christian forums being spammed by new age ideas, I'm surprised to come back to this forum and find the basic truths still being upheld.

I just sent this email re the topic:

Re your email about the hate-bill legislation, I've been posting at a christian website ... that homosexuality isn't good, partly because there may be both male and female angels in heaven, and it'd be natural for male and female relationships in the human race.

(additional thought) Which might be why Jesus emphasized the need for purity, to learn to live by purity on earth ("Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.") It might've been the desires of Lucifer to break out of the box of God's purity that led to the downfall of Lucifer and the fallen angels.

I can partly understand why some people want to try to legislate out hate among fellow human beings, especially with the intensifying human conflicts in the world, but denying free speech might defeat the purpose for which it was intended, -- to foster better relationships without prejudice. Silence with pent-up bitterness can be much more devastating than reconciliation through mutual respect. The joker in the deck is that for the last 30 years, a lot of people have become occult-empowered or demon-possessed, depending on the perspective, which makes anti-hate legislation work in their favor -- no social resistance to encroaching occult spirits.

(end of email)----------------------

What Scotty01 wrote reminded me of the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Luke 15:12-16 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

Luke 15:17-18 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

----------------And his father accepted him back, just as Jesus looks for His lost ones.

Even if there's peace and prosperity for a very long time, how much is being given up for losing an eternity in the kingdom of heaven, where the heavenly angels are? Christ has especially blessed the anglo-christians in the last 400 years, as most of the true missionaries to the rest of the world have come from anglo-countries. Is it any wonder that Lucifer and the fallen angels of the astral realm would want to offer the world's best delights to turn their hearts away from the Christ who has spiritually blessed them so much? Is it really being offered out of kindness?

posted
Skippy it's good that you are open and I think you seem like a really sweet girl. However, at the same time, many people feel that they are ok so they don't have to worry about finding out who Jesus is. I would suggest that you at least study the life of Jesus so that you know who He is and what He came for. It's a really good historical event to study.

Your children will watch everything you do. You don't have to teach them anything, they do what they see their hero doing and their hero is mom. Usually mom and dad. Either way, whether you mean to or not, you are the one that will influence the decisions your child makes.

You seem like a great woman. I would just hate to see you make a choice that could affect your eternal future. Especially since being with your friends in hell, isn't actually going to be as you may think it will be. It's eternal torment, not a fun place to be.

posted
Hi skippy,I am new to this site and like you i am a very questioning person with a open mind.I have found that life is a journey,we all have choices and decisions to make.As a Bible believing Christian I think homosexuality is wrong and is a sin as mentioned in the scriptures along with all the others.Pride,Envy,Lust,Gossipers,Tax Cheaters >ect< You ask the question is it wrong .I think we all have the ability to know what is right and wrong.Intrestingly I find myself always leaning in the direction to make wrong choices and decisions.I look ata 1-4 yr old child and wonder what he,she,would look like having fits and tantrims because they we're never told or taught how to act.There seems to be a common theme thing to me ,we all know how to do wrong ,but we need to be taught how to do right.As a bible believing Christian I believe that God wrote the scriptures for that very purpose.Explaining in it!Who He is and who we are.So this is where I get my information on living my life and making choices and decisions.To me,It is kinda like a driving manual from D.M.V with a bunch of rules, regulations and warnings to keep me safe from myself."Example" if I choose to go 100 miles an hr around a curve that has a posted sign that says 35 mph I am going to crash and burn and hurt myself with possible life long affects along with others who had no chioce in my decision.God knows what is best for us and that is why I think He wrote a manual on how we should live our live.To avoid as much pain as possible. I do not believe He is up there with His Giant flyswatter just waiting to swat us when we do something wrong but I do believe that he wants us to live healthy and peaceful lives.I find it intresting with all the research you did on homosexuals,it seems to me that they are not very happy with the choices they have made.Thier unhealthy and unpeaceful lives seem to collabrate what the scriptures teach. It would be helpful for you to research other sins of the scriptures especially the unsexual ones.Maybe Slanderers,Liars,or bitterness.I think you will find the same results or worse.We all Sin and that is one of the main reasons the Bible was written.God wrote the bible in a way so that a 7 yr old kid could understand His basic Message of what it is truely about.BIBLE stands for> Basic,Instructions,Before,leaving,Earth. We all have that question in our minds!!!(Do I know where I am going after I die)I say to Skippy!!! You Go Girl!!!! and never stop asking questions.
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posted
Carmela - Regarding my children, I'll do my best to inform them of religion, and I'm sure they'll learn about it in school as I did. Obviously, the chances are that if I don't believe then they won't, but I won't hold them back from exploring the religion if they wish.As for hell, I didn't mean it quite how it sounded that I'd be hanging with my mates there! All I meant was that everyone I know commits what according to religion is a serious sin, so I'm definatly not alone.I appreciate you worrying that I'm making the wrong decision, but at the moment I don't see how I could be any happier - simply because of the company I have amongst friends and my partner, and what I have going for me. Therefore I wouldn't change anything, especially for something I don't believe in.

Steven - The gays and lesbians I know are very happy with who they are, I'm just saying it has its downsides, doesn't mean we hate being gay. And it can't be called an unhappy life style, everyone experiences stress in their life for whatever reason, I'm probably alot happier in life and more successful than many straight people. Life's what you make it, but what I meant is that its hard to hear abuse from people telling us we're wrong, it doesn't mean we're anymore unhealthy.Oh, and I will explore other sins - thanks for your help Posts: 9 | From: Southampton | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Skippy in the spirit of understanding one another, can I tell you that there is probably not one of here posting that considers themselves to be "religious" or to practice "Religion"; Relgiousness and religion to a born again Christian is a term that refers to us speaks of the pharisee - those who looked the part on the outside and had not a clue about God in reality... those who had faith in their traditions and rituals and even in their own ability to keep the Law and follow the rules and not faith in the Living God. So it is kind of insulting to call a born again Christian religious or Christianity a religion.

We believe that we are born again children of the Living God creator of heaven and earth and that we walk in a familial relatiohsip with HIM; we do not practice a religion.

I also want to say that most truly born again Christians in no way hate are prejudiced against or are in anyway afraid of people who practice homosexuality.

We view you as people who are blind to the fact that it is sin. And without God powerless over it.

Our Holy Bible teaches us that we are born with sin and have what the Bible calls carnal minds that are enmity with God and cause us to be estranged from him. The Bible teaches that the Carnal mind is literally unable to seek God, Obey God's laws. So in this sense you are right you have no choice about practicing homosexual sin.

But, those who believe the word of God that says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe on HIM could have everlasting life, are born again by the Spirit of God and part of that re-birth allows us to be free of sin's power over us and if we will renew our minds with the word, GOD will enable us to change... not just "feelings" but desires, wants, the flesh's power over us, and so on..... that you can CHOSE not to practice homosexuality.... not only that, but by the Power of God you will come to not desire homosexual relationships at all.

I know that this is truth.

Your carnal mind is unable to subject itself to GOD,but God loves you and knows that only subjecting yourself to GOD will keep you from Hell at the end of this life.

My prayer for you would be that you will seek to find GOD... if you seek HIM, You will find HIM; YOU can be born again.

YOu can be free of homosexual sin; you can have peace and joy in this life that is there in ALL situations; and you can avoid the judgment that is coming on this earth and the people that reject GOD and You can avoid Hell's fire when you die.

I pray this... not just for you but for those you love. Your partner.... IF you love this person, then I know that you do not desire to contribute to their sin and their ultimate perishing because of it.... and your daughter! I am a mother and I know that you, if you understood what you are ultimately appointing your child to by your ignorance or by your denial, you would now be on your knees asking God to help you.

Your denying God exisits or the things in his word to be true wont change anything. All men are born with inherited sin and thus are damned to Hell's fire at the end of this life.

And, if we are living in the generation that most of us believe that we are living in because the things happening in the world are foretold in the Holy Bible and we see them coming to pass at an unbelievable rate and to the letter of what was fortold more than 2 thousand years ago, the hell that is coming to this earth is frightful enough... there is just no way that you would want anyone you love to go through the things that are coming in this life or the next one without GOD. You would have to be a monster to want that and I dont sense that about you. I sense that you are a very caring person.

Please, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, just honestly ask HIM if HE is real; Ask HIM if HE exists; Ask HIM if I speak the truth to you. HE will show himself to you if you will call on him. Tonight, in the darkness of your mind as you go off to sleep just call out to HIM and ask HIM to show HIMself to you if HE be real.

There is a great book called more than a carpenter by a guy named Josh McDowell. He set out to prove that Christianity was a farce and that God did not exist and he found the opposite. You should read it. I will send it to you if you want to PM me an address ... maybe you have a po box or a school address that you would not be afraid to give out.

There is a lot at stake here Skippy for a lot of people. You cant afford to not know the truth. GOd is real and HE wants you to be reconciled to HIM; He wants to save you from the things coming to the earth, and He wants to save you from sin's hold and power over you, and He wants to save your soul from the fires of Hell and they are real.

I will pray that God would speak to you in your heart and you would seek him, if not for you... for your partner and for your daughter.

posted
Hey, not really sure how to phrase this without sounding ignorant - but I don't want to change! Firstly, I don't believe its possible... so I don't see the point in turning to something I don't believe in. Secondly - I can't imagine my life any happier than it is now. I have a perfect partner, and yes I love her and would do anything for her, but its not as simple as turning round to her and saying "Hey, I love you so I want you to be free from this apparent sin even though you're making me the happiest person alive, lets give it a go!"

I believe its who I am, you believe it's not. We all have different beliefs.
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posted
Oh, and just read the rest of your post - THanks for the offer to send the book, although at the moment I'm extremely busy with my final year at university. I'm aware it sounds an excuse, though I will look for it in the library once my works over if I'm still interested in the subject.

I believe its very hard to change beliefs, you either believe or you don't, but I realise some people do change. My close friend turned to religion when his parents died and found alot, and I'm thankful because its really helped him. I'm not ignorant to religion, I often talk to him about it and he tells me the same as what I've been told on here but after the conversations and my visit to church I still find it very far fetched.

You're right, I am a caring person; I'd do anything for friends, family and my partner. I've done volunteer work with kids coaching them to play football (soccer if you're in america), and from the age of 15 I spent 3 years working in nursing homes looking after the elderly, sometimes now I give up spare time to take residents from the home my mum works in to hospital if they're short staffed. So I fail to see how I can be doing something so wrong in life, just because at night I share my bed with a woman rather than a man? isn't the ultimate thing in life happiness? And I've found it!

Oh, and I don't have children - Carmela brought up the question as to what message I'd spread to my children should I some day have any.
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posted
Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Hi Skippy, I think this verse kind of says what HelpforHomeschoolers was saying to you. I pray that someday before it is too late for you that you do desire to change.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus Christ was lifted up from the earth and does indeed draw all men unto him. We can do NOTHING in and of ourselves to be saved. The Lord draws and convicts us in our hearts of our sinful condition.The only thing we can do is to say Yes/No. The Lord does it all...The drawing, the saving and the keeping!

I too challenge you to seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon Him while he is near...ask Him to show Himself to you.
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posted
What the Bible condemns is homosexual sex. It does not address the issue of same sex attraction. Sadly, many Christians assume a person with a same sex attraction is condemned and, even more sadly, many of those act less than lovingly toward those with same sex attractions. There is no getting around the fact that homosexual sex is an abomination to God. However, unless Christians learn to approach homosexuals with the love of Jesus we will never be able to help them.

posted
Sorry I didn’t get a chance to read the whole thread, but here are my thoughts

a)The statistics may be true (I don’t know) but it sounds like that web site is making some immature assumptions. Being acceptable to society and being acceptable to God are two entirely different things. After all, Christians also have often be shunned by society and been persecuted for it.

b)You don’t need to stop loving your partner, I don’t think that is the issue. I am married and have female friends that I could easily be sexually attracted to if I didn’t keep a tight rein on my priorities.

c)It is completely sinful to have any ill feelings towards anyone. Again, society has a grossly perverted sense of right and wrong. To my mind it is far more sinful for someone to commit adultery, which seems to be perfectly acceptable in society.

d)Personally I believe that it is a spiritual battle against a spiritual stronghold, not one that can be fought with any carnal reasoning. Certainly mortal man or society does not have any authority over it.

e)I must admit that I tend to steer clear of gay people who let that aspect of their lives overpower everything else. I guess I just feel uncomfortable having it thrust into my immediate consciousness. However, I would feel the same way about ‘straight’ people who focus continually on their sexuality.

f)I wouldn’t say being gay has anything to do with the propensity (or lack of) for other sins. Some of the most evil people in the world have been gay as well as some of the nicest. Again what is acceptable to society has absolutely nothing to do with what is acceptable to God. According to the Bible, EVERYONE sins so gay people are no less acceptable to God than anyone else.

g)I think some in the Gay community are equally at fault by identifying themselves as gay above everything else. Again society does not have the moral authority to judge anything, but try telling them that.

The Bible does say that homosexuality is sin, and even the physical structure of a male and female tells us that, and, were the whole world suddenly gay, there would be no propagation.

However, we all all sinners, including you and including me and including everyone else on this CBBS.

Howbeit, while I am a sinner, my sins are covered by the cross of Jesus. Which does not suddenly make me a "non-sinner"; only, when I sin, I acknowledge and confess to the All-Knowing and All-Seeing LORD YHWH of Israel that is is sin.

There are some sins that we like, usually sexual sins. And therefore we do them, because we like them. We do them because we are born sinners and are in need of having our sins covered by the cross of Christ.

Some sins are extremely difficult to break or stop, even if we were inclined or interested in breaking them, and I count homosexuality among "most difficult to break".

There was a long time in my Christian life that I "tried to be good", and my life was miserable to the point where I said, "if my life on earth trying to 'be good' is going to be this miserable, then I would rather no longer be a Christian".

But thanks be to God, there is salvation for all sinners in the cross of Jesus. Now that I am saved by the blood shed by Jesus on the cross, I at a minimum have salvation.

I may or I may not ever be able to stop this or that, but thanks be to God I have salvation. But I do not hide my sins but confess and have confessed to God that "I am a sinner":

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Luke 18:11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank You, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Luke 18:13But the publican {the hated tax-collector}, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes to heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Dear Skippy01, may you be willing to say to the resurrected Lord Jesus and to His Father YHWH, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner".

For when the time comes for salvation and our resurrection from the dead, the LORD will NOT look at our righteousness which is "as filthy rags", but the LORD will ONLY look to see if we substituted the righteousness of Jesus for our own filthy righteousness.

If we did ask in our life for Christ's righteousness to be substituted for our filthy righteousness, we shall be saved, not on our own abilities or lack thereof, but ONLY on Jesus's abilities.

Even in the end, we will still be sinners saved ONLY by the completed work of Christ in the cross. Our own righteousness will still count for nothing, even if we managed "to clean it up a bit".

Shall we sin then, since grace abounds? No, because when we accept salvation, we receive the Holy Spirit to counsel and guide us into paths and ways of righteousness; we will do a bit better than before, having the sure counsel of God. But whatever we still are in the end will be "sinners saved by grace" only.

What I am posting is not my view, but God's view through his word, here is some light to shed on the subject:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idalaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders will inherit the kingdom of God.

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God must have been really proud of his master blueprint when he created man and woman, to blend together in perfect harmony. With his careful planning, they were the same, but very different. In the electrical world it is impossible for negative and negative to make contact with each other, or connecting positive to positive will never work.

Ephes.5:22-33 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

It is impossible for two of the same sex to be united into one. All references about marriage in the Bible use the term 'a man and woman', so anything else is a diversion from God's perfect Divine Plan for an intimate and perfect union.
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quote:Originally posted by Skippy01:a)I found one website claiming that homosexuality can't be healthy because suicide rates are higher, has anyone ever thought that maybe its opinions like that that cause the suicide? People get depressed because they realise they can't help who they are, but they get attacked for it, both physically and verbally, and told that they're wrong.

It certainly makes sense that persecution and alienation could lead one to commit suicide.

quote:b)Alot of groups claim to be able to 'cure' homosexuality, how can feelings change? If you were told to stop loving your partner just because a group of people thought your love was wrong, do you think you would be able to do it?

Feelings can and do change but I agree it is difficult to change one's feelings.

quote:c)Homophobia - People get beaten up, rejected by friends and family, all because of who they're attracted to. Some people are murdered because of it, and one case study reported of a 4 year old boy who was tortured, beaten, starved and finally murdered by his mum because she thought he was gay. How can you tell gay people they're wrong and need to change, when we're fighting against homophobia to prevent innocent people being attacked? If you believe homosexuality is wrong, do you agree with people being murdered and beaten for it?

One can say that homosexuality is wrong while still believing it is right for homosexuals to fight against being attacked. I certainly would not defend anyone who murdered, beat, physically threatened, verbally abused, or alienated someone based on their sexual orientation.

quote:d)Alot of religious websites I found claim it's a choice, or an addiction. When you realise you're gay you have to deal with homophobia, being attacked if you want to hold hands with your partner, coming out to friends and family and being told by the ones you love that you're wrong and should be ashamed - how can anyone claim that being gay is a choice?!

Those who think sexual orientation is a choice don't know what they're talking about. However, whether one is straight or gay, we all decide if and when to have sex.

quote:e)Have any of you ever known a gay person? If so did/do you accept their sexuality or would you rather not know them?

I have no gay friends.

quote:f)The world and society is changing, and people are becoming more open to homosexuality. I know many straight people who will happily go for a night out in a gay bar because they know they'll have a trouble free night. Also, how often do you hear of a gay person commiting kidnap, murder or rape? Do those points not suggest what friendly people the gay community are? Yet we still get told that we're wrong because of who we'd rather share a bed with.

Many pedophiles are gay since they prey on people of the same sex. However, I agree that gays are not any more violent than straights.

Every attempt I've seen to show that homosexuality is immoral have failed. As a Christian I must admit that not every sin is immoral. It is quite possible that homosexuality is a sin but not immoral. As a less provocative example consider kosher laws. I certainly wouldn't view eating pork as immoral but it would be a sin for a Jew.

quote:g)One website I found gave help on what to do in order to help a gay person, it said something along the lines of "See a person, not a homosexual"...Is that not slightly hypocritical? If they're saying that, why can't they see a person instead of a 'sin'? You don't hold groups to try and change peoples skin colour, and we're taught that to treat people of another race differently is wrong because we're all the same deep down. So why treat homosexuals different just because of who they're attracted to?

I don't know the context you got that quote from but it almost sounds like they are suggesting that we treat people equally. To see someone as a person is to identify with them while seeing someone has a homosexual may put some distance between you and the other person.
Posts: 14 | From: Madison, WI, USA | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:Originally posted by Jayman:Every attempt I've seen to show that homosexuality is immoral have failed. As a Christian I must admit that not every sin is immoral. It is quite possible that homosexuality is a sin but not immoral.

Aren't immorality and sin basically the same thing?

Definitions:Immoral -violating principles of right and wrong To sin - commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law
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quote:Originally posted by HisGrace:Aren't immorality and sin basically the same thing?

Definitions:Immoral -violating principles of right and wrong To sin - commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law

I see morality as dealing with the actions between humans while sin deals with the actions between God and man. I think you should be able to defend all moral arguments without referencing the Bible or any other holy book.
Posts: 14 | From: Madison, WI, USA | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:Originally posted by Jayman:I see morality as dealing with the actions between humans while sin deals with the actions between God and man. I think you should be able to defend all moral arguments without referencing the Bible or any other holy book.

Numbers 25:1[ Moab Seduces Israel ] While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women,

Having not nor the intent of reading the posts here, I still would share the following:

Chapter 7

Of how Enoch was taken on to the second heaven

1 And those men took me and led me up on to the second heaven, and showed me darkness, greater than earthly darkness, and there I saw prisoners hanging, watched, awaiting the great and boundless judgment, and these angels were dark-looking, more than earthly darkness, and incessantly making weeping through all hours.

2 And I said to the men who were with me: Wherefore are these incessantly tortured? They answered me: These are God's apostates, who obeyed not God's commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince, who also is fastened on the fifth heaven.

3 And I felt great pity for them, and they saluted me, and said to me: Man of God, pray for us to the Lord; and I answered to them: Who am I, a mortal man, that I should pray for angels? Who knows whither I go, or what will befall me? Or who will pray for me?

Chapter 10

Here they showed Enoch the terrible place and various tortures

1And those two men led me up on to the Northern side, and showed me there a very terrible place, and there were all manner of tortures in that place: cruel darkness and unillumined gloom, and there is no light there, but murky fire constantly flaming aloft, and there is a fiery river coming forth, and that whole place is everywhere fire, and everywhere there is frost and ice, thirst and shivering, while the bonds are very cruel, and the angels fearful and merciless, bearing angry weapons, merciless torture, and I said:

2 Woe, woe, how very terrible is this place.

3 And those men said to me: This place, O Enoch, is prepared for those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature,

which is child-corruption after the sodomitic fashion, magic-making, enchantments and devilish witchcrafts, and who boast of their wicked deeds, stealing, lies, calumnies, envy, rancour, fornication, murder, and who, accursed, steal the souls of men,

who, seeing the poor take away their goods and themselves wax rich, injuring them for other men's goods;

who being able to satisfy the empty, made the hungering to die;

being able to clothe, stripped the naked;

and who knew not their creator,

and bowed to the soulless and lifeless gods, who cannot see nor hear,

vain gods, who also built hewn images and bow down to unclean handiwork, for all these is prepared this place among these, for eternal inheritance.

Chapter 18

Of the taking of Enoch on to the fifth heaven

1 The men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered,

and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and their was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me:

2 Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven?

3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and

three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon,

and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon (Mt. Hermon, Harmon) and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds,

who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity.

4 And therefore God judged them with great judgment, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord's great day.

5 And I said to the Grigori: I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till the existing heaven and earth shall end for ever.

6 And I said: Wherefore do you wait, brethren, and do not serve before the Lord's face, and have not put your services before the Lord's face, lest you anger your Lord utterly?

7 And they listened to my admonition, and spoke to the four ranks in heaven, and lo!

As I stood with those two men four trumpets trumpeted together with great voice,

and the Grigori broke into song with one voice, and their voice went up before the Lord pitifully and affectingly.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children: Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor. Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Silly talking is the 'foolish talking', and is ranked right up there with fornication *porneia* and whoremongering *pornos*.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

It is essential to acknowledge the structure of Ephesians, placing what is written with due prespective. In the simplest form, the structure is two-fold;Doctrinal chapters of instruction/foundational education:chptrs 1-3Practical chapters of the outworking in witness of the believer:chptrs 4-6
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quote:5 And I said to the Grigori: I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till the existing heaven and earth shall end for ever.

6 And I said: Wherefore do you wait, brethren, and do not serve before the Lord's face, and have not put your services before the Lord's face, lest you anger your Lord utterly?

7 And they listened to my admonition, and spoke to the four ranks in heaven, and lo!

As I stood with those two men four trumpets trumpeted together with great voice,

and the Grigori broke into song with one voice, and their voice went up before the Lord pitifully and affectingly.

I assume this is from the book of Enoch. I don’t know how accurate, embellished or outright deception there might be in the books of Enoch. Dante’s fictional book “Dante’s Inferno” about the different levels of h-ll, involved a lot of speculation, also.

However, the description of punishment for fallen angels who had deceived women on earth, as mentioned in Genesis 6, shows how extremely serious the choices of sinful lifestyles can be.

“Condemned them to be under earth till the existing heaven and earth shall end for ever” is a very harsh way to exist for such a long time, but it’s reasonable to assume the possibility that for fallen angels to possess and manipulate the women on earth to fulfill their lusts, would have dire consequences. These dire consequences are also mentioned in the book of Jude in the NT.

Jude v. 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

When Jesus was about to cast powerful demons out of a man, the demons pleaded that Jesus wouldn’t send them to the deep.

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

Then when Enoch asked why they didn’t ask for God’s forgiveness, it seemed like it was too late for them, the Grigons. These could be the same sad words of unrepentant sinners on earth, who thought they prospered in a sinful lifestyle, in spite of warnings from compassionate christians.

7 And they listened to my admonition, and spoke to the four ranks in heaven, and lo!....................and the Grigori broke into song with one voice, and their voice went up before the Lord pitifully and affectingly.-------------

So that song “Softly and Tenderly” – might be more than just a D.L. Moody crusade song, but it’s Jesus pleading for His lost children to return to Him, knowing what the consequences could be if they hardened their hearts to the provocative lures of the world’s lusts and sins. And the power of the name of Jesus can deliver both women and men from the manipulations of sinful forces.