talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.

What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.

What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.

Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?

No way of knowing, but personally I think we're a team of good individuals who are all close as a team, but who are getting very little direction from on high (or they are getting direction that they don't believe in and therefore don't listen to) and are therefore largely doing their own thing.

That's why we'll get the odd sparkling performance (like against Sarries at the Stoop in recent years) or we'll get the odd gritty win (Wasps in the league this year) but ultimately it will never be consistent, and as you say if it doesn't immediately click we just fall apart.

They need someone to come in and shake them up, get them to do something a bit different and really buy into what the team is doing.

Simply based on my observation and instincts really. I mean I cant list any kissy kissy moments or anything but I am fairly widely read and do chat to individual people from the Club from time to time. Tis all.

RleQuinTruth is if it isn't addressed, another 2005 will come along and down we will go (again)!
RleQ

To be fair even in the last three years when we've not been any good, we still finished 32, 35 and 48 points ahead of the team who finished bottom. If (as we should) we beat Worcester tomorrow we'll already be 19/20 points ahead of the bottom team.

I think if we continue in the way we are we'll be down in the 9th/10th position, but at the moment we're a way off getting relegated.

RleQuinTruth is if it isn't addressed, another 2005 will come along and down we will go (again)!
RleQ

To be fair even in the last three years when we've not been any good, we still finished 32, 35 and 48 points ahead of the team who finished bottom. If (as we should) we beat Worcester tomorrow we'll already be 19/20 points ahead of the bottom team.

I think if we continue in the way we are we'll be down in the 9th/10th position, but at the moment we're a way off getting relegated.

That's mainly because there's been one rubbish club and not three or four like there was in 2005
RleQ

talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.

What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.

What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.

Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?

No way of knowing, but personally I think we're a team of good individuals who are all close as a team, but who are getting very little direction from on high (or they are getting direction that they don't believe in and therefore don't listen to) and are therefore largely doing their own thing.

That's why we'll get the odd sparkling performance (like against Sarries at the Stoop in recent years) or we'll get the odd gritty win (Wasps in the league this year) but ultimately it will never be consistent, and as you say if it doesn't immediately click we just fall apart.

They need someone to come in and shake them up, get them to do something a bit different and really buy into what the team is doing.

I don't think JK and the current team are able to do that.

The conundrum is that when it does click, we ARE good enough. So maybe the issue is a psychological one? Maybe it's a trust or confidence issue? Whether that's trust in coaches, players or systems.

I believe that if we can perform well consistently, we'd be contenders. I agree that the players are skilled and capable, but the inconsistency is what puzzles and frustrates me.

le tissThe truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.

You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.

Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.

I just think things have got a little bit too cosy for some people. Recruiting from within is all well and good for the sake of consistency, but is only really a valid exercise if whats gone before is worth sticking with. its only a matter of time before the supposed lesser sides improve to the point where our yearly struggle will start to become retaining our mid table standing. I could be wrong but it feels like we are starting to get left behind.

I can see why you say "cosy" but Sarries have spent a great deal of money in trying to create a togetherness that we already have in spades.

Mind you, if we get nilled at home by Wuss tomorrow I will be starting my own JK must go thread!!

Sarries players seem to buy into (hate that expression) the chosen game plan. Nev and Easter have said some of our players don't.

Doubt Yarde's attitude would be tolerated at Sarries. I'm sure our players are all good mates with each other. Not the same as togetherness on the pitch

le tissThe truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.

You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.

Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.

Not sure anyone has asked for instant success. How far have we come in the last few years? We've gone from winning and few years in top 4 to mid table mediocrity. Under JK's watch we have improved table position and got back into the top table in Europe, which is awesome, but I can't see any reason to say we've made strides over the last few years.

We have Ben Glynn starting most of our games. We have Dave Lewis as our back up 9. I'm sure they're lovely blokes but that is a sad state of affairs.

talkshowhost86
Whilst I don't doubt that our club have a good spirit amongst them, if that's not actually following a particular plan then it won't be enough on many occasions.

What I find heartening is the passion shown by the team, and the fact that they clearly have unity. When we win a vital turnover or scrum, you can see how close they are.

What I find disheartening is how this can crumble so easily during a game and heads drop when the going is bad.

Maybe it is because they don't all follow the same plan. Is it that they don't trust the plan, or that they aren't good enough? Or does the plan just not work?

No way of knowing, but personally I think we're a team of good individuals who are all close as a team, but who are getting very little direction from on high (or they are getting direction that they don't believe in and therefore don't listen to) and are therefore largely doing their own thing.

That's why we'll get the odd sparkling performance (like against Sarries at the Stoop in recent years) or we'll get the odd gritty win (Wasps in the league this year) but ultimately it will never be consistent, and as you say if it doesn't immediately click we just fall apart.

They need someone to come in and shake them up, get them to do something a bit different and really buy into what the team is doing.

I don't think JK and the current team are able to do that.

The conundrum is that when it does click, we ARE good enough. So maybe the issue is a psychological one? Maybe it's a trust or confidence issue? Whether that's trust in coaches, players or systems.

I believe that if we can perform well consistently, we'd be contenders. I agree that the players are skilled and capable, but the inconsistency is what puzzles and frustrates me.

As I've said, the reason I think we see them click sometimes is because we actually have a very decent squad of players when everyone's fit. Even if they were coached by nobody, their talent alone would get them the odd fantastic performance.

But in terms of why we don't see it consistently? I'd certainly be looking at the coaches before looking at any pyschological issues (not that the two are mutually exclusive).

Would be surprised if we didn't put Worcs to the sword tomorrow....we ALL know this just papers over the cracks......the Yarde/Marler/Sinckler situation is much more worrying...WTF is happening to the team spirit!!!!?????

Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

StoopermanI feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It’s not “just the way they play” because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!

StoopermanI feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. It’s not “just the way they play” because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!

My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.

But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.

StoopermanI feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. Itï¿½s not ï¿½just the way they playï¿½ because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!

My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.

But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.

To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.

Would that not be a case of the players influencing the board over the choice if coaches? I'm not sure it would be good for players to have so much power.

StoopermanI feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. Itï¿½s not ï¿½just the way they playï¿½ because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!

My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.

But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.

To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.

Would that not be a case of the players influencing the board over the choice if coaches? I'm not sure it would be good for players to have so much power.

Good point and yes, it would be the case. But the players always hold the power, particularly if they work as a group (e.g. England players going on strike). That's why it's important that they believe in the coaching and systems as they are far harder to change, quite simply because there are more of them. Furthermore, if even 2 or 3 are underperforming because of it, the whole team suffers as a consequence.

StoopermanI feel a bit sorry for JK to be honest.
Yes we have a team of superstars in many positions, but, naming no names, its been obvious for a few years now that some players got an easy ride because of their reputation. The rot started under COS not JK. This may be a crucial season for Quins and JK, I suspect a few well known names will leave because JK does not value them as highly as they value themselves.

ITs going to be a tough year, and recruitment for the future will be key.

I sort of agree. There are times when some of the top players (Robshaw and Brown excepted) have put in some absolute stinkers and played with no sense of responsibility. Itï¿½s not ï¿½just the way they playï¿½ because at international level they never seem to be anywhere near as daft!

My contention is that they don't believe in our trust the coaches/systems.

But regardless of whose fault it is, you can't change all the players. Well, you can, that that would be rather silly. Rather, you make a change of manager/coaches as you know the players are good enough, yet underperform.

To steadfastly refuse to address that is, in my mind, negligent.

Would that not be a case of the players influencing the board over the choice if coaches? I'm not sure it would be good for players to have so much power.

Good point and yes, it would be the case. But the players always hold the power, particularly if they work as a group (e.g. England players going on strike). That's why it's important that they believe in the coaching and systems as they are far harder to change, quite simply because there are more of them. Furthermore, if even 2 or 3 are underperforming because of it, the whole team suffers as a consequence.

What Cookie said.

And then also this: if the players are sacking coaches every whipstitch then you've got a problem. If, once in a blue moon out of sheer desperation and love of the club, there's a players' revolt (*) that's quite another matter.

Both valid points. As you say, IF there is a players' revolt then the issue needs addressing. If on the other hand, a few individuals think they rule the roost, then the issue is with the players. (Likewise, I have no idea if either scenario is true).

I remember reading the book about England's grand slam being derailed by Scotland, when Carling was made captain. They focus on the fact that some England players at the time didn't respect Carling when he was made captain, and how during the first team meeting some were playing pool. others reading a newspaper etc. Not sure why, but one of the previous posts brought that to mind.

The old saying about "one bad apple" may also ring true, as Cookie alludes to. Is it a possibility that the Yarde incident could help put things back on track? IF he was the bad apple (who knows?) then maybe the team will be better without him; or if he really was trying to exert too much power or influence, then maybe this will send out a message that no player is bigger than the club.

Again, this is all theorising. I really do want these players to play to their potential and would desperately like to know what the issue is. Many think it's the coaching, some specifically JK. I disagree on the latter, but agree that the former is a possibility. We shall just have to wait to find out.

For the record, as time goes on I'm starting to think that Tofty and Dippy maybe should be under the microscope.

The only coaches I'd absolve from blame at the moment is our scrum coaches Rowntree & Jones - but I was expecting them to be a big improvement on JK and actually I think JK did more with less. And it's probably grossly unfair, but I'd point out an entire first choice front row is currently suspended.

And yes, Mark Mapletoft is Head Coach. He bears direct responsibility for the others and their performance.

Not sure I'd include Dippy, he seems out the firing line as Academy and Global Development Director.

And someone is going to tell me that JK is ultimately responsible for all of them and therefore every mistake they make is directly attributable to him. Well I currently work for Vodafone (it won't last!) but were I to accidentally drop a production database for one of the clients, nobody jumps up and down and screams at Vittorio Colao (CEO) about what a poor job he's doing. They'd find me, and possibly my manager responsible!

The only coaches I'd absolve from blame at the moment is our scrum coaches Rowntree & Jones - but I was expecting them to be a big improvement on JK and actually I think JK did more with less. And it's probably grossly unfair, but I'd point out an entire first choice front row is currently suspended.

And yes, Mark Mapletoft is Head Coach. He bears direct responsibility for the others and their performance.

Not sure I'd include Dippy, he seems out the firing line as Academy and Global Development Director.

And someone is going to tell me that JK is ultimately responsible for all of them and therefore every mistake they make is directly attributable to him. Well I currently work for Vodafone (it won't last!) but were I to accidentally drop a production database for one of the clients, nobody jumps up and down and screams at Vittorio Colao (CEO) about what a poor job he's doing. They'd find me, and possibly my manager responsible!

Yes, but the clients would blame Vodafone, and if other problems were arising the shareholders would hold the CEO responsible. Im sure that a few would absolve him of blame and say it was his people who were the problem, but most would say it was his fault for bringing in the wrong people...

DOK - there is the principle in English law of vicarious liability - the company/top bod is responsible for the actions of everyone it employs.

With line management individuals are responsible for sorting out glitches in their department.

At Quins the coaches are the departmental managers and should sort out poor play and player faults in their technical area but the collective performance on the pitch is the responsibility of the DoR - just as the CEO at Vodafone is responsible for the overall performance of the company and the way it does its business.If major companies like Vodafone fail to meet stock market expectations the CEO goes.

le tissThe truth is something seems to have been rotten in the Quins camp since COS was in the chair. It has not got any better under the "new" regime and it seems like apathy has taken quite a hold. I am increasingly of the opinion that a new broom is very much needed or we will just continue meander to mid table at best year after year. Given the state of affairs for the last few years, I am quite surprised there are as many cheer leaders for the current set up as there are. I truly hope JK can prove my pessimistic view of the future wrong. The thing that worries me most is the refusal for the management team to admit they have a big problem at present. Too many heads in too much sand I fear.

You have a point le tiss we do seem to have had our ups and downs in recent years but the men in charge are not innocents abroad and other factors have contributed to the Club's up and down form, such as injuries, lack of a settled team, overcoaching by new men keen to earn their stripes and so on. Look how far we have come in the last few years. Its a journey we are on together and wanting instant success and always calling for the head of the man in charge is a little tiresome. No, its extremely tiresome. Suggest viable alternatives and put forward an action plan, yes, but JK must go is wearing a bit thin.

Mind you, the missus points out that several of our core players are starting families and settling down so whether that is a factor or not is debatable.

Not sure anyone has asked for instant success. How far have we come in the last few years? We've gone from winning and few years in top 4 to mid table mediocrity. Under JK's watch we have improved table position and got back into the top table in Europe, which is awesome, but I can't see any reason to say we've made strides over the last few years.

We have Ben Glynn starting most of our games. We have Dave Lewis as our back up 9. I'm sure they're lovely blokes but that is a sad state of affairs.

I mean how far we have come as a Club not just on the playing side. Ben Glynn is a wholehearted tryer who I thought had a good game today and Dave Lewis is behind Mulchrone who is perfectly adequate and his little cameo today was fine.

Coaches such as Blackadder,Mallinder and Richards have no problem in describing performance as unacceptable,not up
standard ,or poor.JK thinks leaking 6 tries at home against the bottom club merits no more than “looking at”.At the very least he and NE should be feeling very embarrassed

Usually Mapletoft is head coach. Maybe they're seeing whether splitting the role forwards/backs, attack/defence is any better or just giving people a taste of the job while the results are not too important.

This is truly a pointless thread. People using a good win against Sarries as an excuse to beat JK.

There has been some good things that JK has done this season and some bad things. His handling of the a-team does not fall into the "bad things" category.

However, yesterday's win could easily have become a narrow loss if the final kick had gone astray. I would still have been happy with the performance, but there would probably be another dozen "JK out" threads on this board.

Just watching Eddie J leading the England warm up with intensity and purpose written all over his face and fully engaged with the players.I contrast this with JK with his hands in his pockets looking like a spare part and bored with what’s going on as he wanders aimlessly about.
As a player who would fire you up more?

DibdenJust watching Eddie J leading the England warm up with intensity and purpose written all over his face and fully engaged with the players.I contrast this with JK with his hands in his pockets looking like a spare part and bored with what’s going on as he wanders aimlessly about.
As a player who would fire you up more?

DibdenJust watching Eddie J leading the England warm up with intensity and purpose written all over his face and fully engaged with the players.I contrast this with JK with his hands in his pockets looking like a spare part and bored with what’s going on as he wanders aimlessly about.
As a player who would fire you up more?

We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment.
We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals.
We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards.
If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing
abuse@sportnetwork.net