This has been going on basically since Bob Kohler first made a post on Magic Caf implying that Schoolcraft was the new kid on the block and Lassen customers would soon be flocking to ebay to off their Lassen products before they were worthless. Here is the link to that post. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/sear ... st=3564662 Due to my recent well publicized falling out with Bob, I laughed it off as a cheap shot. Soon though, a few other figures in the magic community that I had personal beefs with followed suit, with Dean Dill at the helm stating that Jamie Schoolcraft was unequaled. Tim Trono, whom I refused to further sell my products to, chimed in. Seth Kramer, who is a very close friend of Bob Kohler, was another. Thomas Wayne, who was manufacturing for Bob, was another. And so it beganthe Lassen/Schoolcraft war at magic caf.

Now I had been banned from Magic Caf for arguing with Thomas Wayne. However, I had also maintained that I carried no grudges or personal issues with Brooks about being banned for rather childish bickering with Wayne and the adding of a picture of myself wearing an anti-Wayne t-shirt. I might add that Brooks had repeatedly asked me to be a guest of honor there, but I had declined. In the meantime, some members of this small group mentioned above had become Magic Caf sponsors, namely Kohler, Schoolcraft, and Dill, and the bias began, all rallying behind Schoolcraft with Brooks backing them up with deletions, etc. to slant the posts. There was talk on Steve Pelligrinos website of Dean Dill working behind the scenes at Magic Cafe to encourage Brooks to delete and edit pro-Lassen posts.

A brief history about my relationship with Dean Dill. Dean was one of my first customers. I made his first explosion sets for him. I did all the research and development on that set of coins to produce a set that Dean was happy with. I added my touches to what he wanted, like making the last coin double sided and remilling the edges of all the coins and shells. My falling out with Dean came when he, after filling me with I would be The Man, etc., took all my work and handed it to Jamie Schoolcraft to copy. He did this without informing me of his intentions. I had to read about it on Magic Talk. He posted that he had a new manufacturer for explosion and that he would also be selling expanded shells. When I confronted Dean about why he hadnt forwarned me that he was going to change manufacturers, his answer was that they werent sure if they could do it. This was bogus in my opinion, firstly because he had just ordered $3000 worth of these sets from me only a few weeks earlier, and secondly I had confided some of my methods to Dean. I am sure that Dean passed these methods to Jamie Schoolcraft. Dean had passed Johnson methods to me, he had been inside Johnson and had seen their expanded shell making process, however my method for making shells is completely different than the Johnson method, and coincidentally, so is Schoolcrafts. I am not saying however, that I believe Schoolcrafts quality is the same as mine, nor does he know exactly the process which I use. I was smart enough to keep a few of the details to myself and my methods for making shells changed drastically about a year ago to a new procedure which I feel is much better.

Fast forward almost 2 years from Kohlers original post on Magic Caf. The ongoing feud is going full swing. I was accused of ripping off Dean Dill a while back for putting nests of coins on my website that contained 3 and 4 coins. Although listing the nests as single units, it was found that those in the know could buy 4 of them and reproduce the explosion set for a much cheaper price tag, sans routine of course. I believe the original nest of 4 coins was made by Johnson and sold as nest-o-halves, although this set didnt contain the improvements that I had added, of course. Deans copy set of mine did include all the improvements that I added. Other than this controversy, I guess the rest of the complaining about Lassen was based on personal grudges by Kohler, Wayne, Dill, Trono, and now Schoolcraft and even Steve Brooks. It has been brought to my attention that Brooks has a grudge against me for donating a set of coins to Magic Circle Jerk, however, at the time, I had no idea what contest Andy was going to have. I had no idea the contestants would enter such outrageous entries as, say for instance, Jason Wethington. Haha! Did anyone catch that one? But sorry, I cant be responsible for everyone. I simply donated the coins because I liked Andy and felt his website was outrageously funny, as did most in the magic community.

According to Brooks. Todd may not actually write a blog himself, but certainly supports those that do, often providing his hand crafted coinwork as prizes for blogs to give away in there ongoing quest to ridicule my staff and I. Todd Lassen was permanently banned from this website. That said, anything that discusses or promotes Todd's work will be removed. He lost his status as a member here and I will not be the one to help promote his work or products. So, if I sound like I have no sympathy for the man, you're correct - I don't.

These people in the magic community that I have chosen to have a beef with are no lightweights. They all have influence and their circles of friends, etc.. I also have many, many loyal customers and have made a great many personal acquaintances. So camps have formed and this whole thing has grown to proportions larger than I imagined. I see guys I havent even heard of badmouthing me. Ha.

Now lets have a look at Schoolcrafts new website. Before I started making coin gaffs, I dont believe there was anyone in the business that was making expanded shell sets that included 4 coins and shell. I dont believe there was anyone even making expanded shells out of soft coins. I dont believe there was anyone offering unexpanded shells with shaved and remilled coins, the sets Jamie refers to Deans Set. I dont believe there was anyone remilling the edges of the flipper coin inserts or even making them out of walking liberty coins. No one was making flipper coins from silver dollars or really any coin other than a clad kennedy half. The internal band idea for the flipper coin was an idea that I had prototyped years ago, and shown to few, so I had my suspicions about that, but I have no idea if it was developed independently by Schoolcraft. At any rate, I radically redesigned that before putting it on my website, and really only decided to release it after I saw Jamie knocking off my Triple Threat gimmick. To me, that is where he really stepped over the line. Now, looking at his offerings today, I see that several of his sets contain the EXACT coins that I originally incorporated into coin sets years ago. These sets are nothing but duplicates of sets that I have been offering since long before Jamie gaffed his first coin. With literally tens of thousands of coins available, why would he want to copy the exact same coins I have been using?

The most recent addition to my website was an expanded shell set made from east African dimes. I wanted to have something that would always be in stock and moderately priced. It wasnt a week after I put this on my site that I talked to a guy that had been at the Magic Castle swap meet. He informed me that Jamie had these on his table. Now I see he has them on his site.for more money. Come on.

When Troy Hooser lectured on Triple Threat at the magic castle this year, Jamie asked if he could examine the coins and Troy allowed him. Within weeks he was making a knockoff set that he now calls 3CM. He has taken a full page ad in magic magazine advertising it, and even had the nerve to offer links to Troys email to buy Troys notes to use with HIS knockoff. Fortunately, that option is not available now and only people that purchase the original gaff from me will be able to obtain the notes. Producing the Triple Threat was a joint effort between me and Troy. At Magic Jubilee, several prominent magicians informed me that Jamie was wanting to take photographs of my gaffs that they were using. Luckily he was declined and scolded. Troy was even approached this week by Brad Henderson, who writes reviews for Magic magazine. Brad is writing a review of Jamies knockoff of our Triple Threat. Great.

Now some good things have come out of all this. I think that the feud/competition has actually increased my business by a rather large margin. And the competition has certainly been a catalyst for me to improve my products. That is good for the consumer, and also I have developed more pride in my work over the course. However, I really have to shake my head when I see these blatant copies of nearly everything I do. Not only that, Schoolcrafts prices are substantially higher than mine, and I feel that I can safely say that I am putting a lot more time into making stuff than he is. Now I am getting advice to increase my prices to match his. Some think that higher prices mean better product, at least to those that arent in the know.

If you want to compare my product to anothers, all you have to do is hold that in your hand. If you do that and notice no difference, that is fine by me, buy from whomever you like, as it is pointless to point out differences that you wouldnt notice on your own. But glorifying and supporting someone that does nothing but copy his art from someone else is beyond me. And how can it be rewarding, especially when you look at the motives of the people that are supporting you?

Now I am sure there are going to be rebuttals here, and plenty guys not liking what I have to say, but not saying anything is not my style. :) Todd Lassen

Hi Todd, keep up the good work!Have been a customer of Todd's for some time and have many of his gaffs in my collection and I am not even a coin man, but do appreciate great workmanship and great magic.

While I am not able to determine if the allegations in your post are correct (or not) I find the timing of it a little disturbing. As you know Dean has bigger issues to worry at this point than this little game of who said what and who did what. From one human being to another I think that this issue could have waited until Dean is more fully recovered. In view of this I find the post at this time inconsiderate no matter what Dean might (or might not) have done to you personally.Let me quote a German saying which translates into: "Don't kick somebody who is already on the floor!"

Originally posted by WolfgangWollet: ... what Dean might (or might not) have done to you personally.

As I read his post, the theme seems to be that his works are being copied, yet his business is doing fine if not improving. I didn't get the feeling Todd wanted to focus on any bad feelings toward Dean.

It would seem a distraction to avoid discussing copying of goods to discuss Dean in particular at this time. There are some efforts underway to offer Dean some economic support and they are posted elsewhere.

Can someone disprove what Mr. Lassen said. Seems pretty simple. If it's true then Mr.Schoolcraft should stop ripping off others ideas. If it's true, how can anyone side with Schoolcraft, unless they have a bias against Lassen.

Originally posted by sphaleros: Can someone disprove what Mr. Lassen said. Seems pretty simple. If it's true then Mr.Schoolcraft should stop ripping off others ideas. ...

Respectfully, there are two ideological problems with the statements above. First, despite the tabloid press and our base natures in our society we prefer to treat each other as innocent till proven guilty. Second, magic is one of the places where everything we ask people to believe as it should be, is not quite the case. In magicdom the word 'should' is essentially equivalent to the phrase 'obviously not as I will now reveal'. For example let's use Doc Daley's Last Trick...if I put the red aces over here, that should leave me with the black aces...but (you know the rest)

It's Friday night, let's do something better than build a case against anyone.

I'm guessing it shows that "coinlover" is concerned that voicing an opinion that is unpopular might be problematic and limiting to ones standing in the community... I've seen a number of smart people get banned from The Cafe for being smarter than most people there, and not hiding their distain for idiocy. That's not really been an issue here on Genii.

One thing I have noticed in the past few years is that when it comes to "ethical behavior" most people are willing to cut their friends a huge amount of slack, while still holding to the fire the feet of people who are not their friends. Moreover, these people seem to have no idea they are even behaving in this way, or at least don't see their statements are being inconsistent.

I would hope that the timing of Todds posting has more to do with the release of Jamies new product than with Deans recent accident. But I dont know Todd, or Jamie or Dean so I cant speak about any of their motivations. This is why I will give him the benefit of the doubt about the timing just as I will give Dean the benefit of the doubt about his part in any feud. Since none of this stuff is patented, I dont think anyone believes they are doing wrong, whatever that means.

Since I dont have the good sense to hide behind a pseudonym Im sure I have my share of people who find me annoying. And I find myself in the awkward position of liking and having friendships with both sides of a number of the most recent feuds in magic and all I can think of is the comment written to me in an email recently by an occasional contributor to Genii, who was talking about how often threads degenerate into mean spirited name calling.

Can we also cut Pete, coinlover and Wolfgang some slack? It's natural when you see someone saying something negative about a friend (or a hero) to respond by assuming the worst about the person who says that thing.

The wonderful thing about friends is that they don't see our flaws, and they do have our backs.

Originally posted by sphaleros: Can someone disprove what Mr. Lassen said. Seems pretty simple. If it's true then Mr.Schoolcraft should stop ripping off others ideas. If it's true, how can anyone side with Schoolcraft, unless they have a bias against Lassen.

wrong question. Right question is can Mr. Lassen prove what he says. No.

I have purchased coins directly from both people in question. They both do great work. I had a set of nesting shells made by Johnson Products 17 years ago, so it is very difficult to be exact as to when what was made first and by whom, we do live in a world of secrets, and not all of them are for sale.

My concern is that all of the negatives seem to be coming only from one direction.

If each party is now no longer speaking, then let's let the market sort it out.

I truly believe there is enough room for more than two great coin craftsmen.

Originally posted by Buster Brown:If the timing is off, can Pete Biro, coinlover and Wolfgang please advise the correct period for Lassen to wait before posting something of this nature? Is it two weeks? A month? Who decides?

Come on and use your brain!

Lassen simply should wait until Dean Dill is by better health again, I second the thoughts of Pete Biro and others re the timing is completely off re telling us his story.

Apart from this, it's not the first time Todd Lassen is speaking his mind re what he wrote!

I'll tell you what, I bought diff. items from Todd Lassen and they where OK, he even corrected a communication mistake and did redo one of these items, so he treated me fair in THIS instance.

However, it almost took a lifetime to get the stuff and he was very cautious to get every single cent (that's his right) so he carefully adviced me to add extra 4% to the already nice sum, to cover the charges from PayPal,which PayPal ALWAYS does charge from ANY receiver of money, that was the very first time, I ever experienced a 'seller' was so concious about getting covered 'this' expense..again, fair enough, but of the 50 times or so I have dealed with sellers in the US, none earlier did charge that cover for using PayPal, it was part of their stuffs price...

Next experience is, that I wanted to order a new util and send an email to the 'genius', (a such one he must be, judging by what he wrotes about his stuff) which by now goes month back, despite of several emails, I never got an answer..

As he states, foreign customers have to contact him via email to get the complete price incl. shipping, this query was not 'abnorm' at all, neither a timewaste for him!!!

Obviously he spends more time in slagging REALLY nice guys like Jamie Schoolcraft instead of serving his customers!

At another board I mentioned this and IIRC the whole lot got deleted..

I also said, the way he runs his bizz, it will go down the drain sooner or later, no matter what exceptional quality he produces and I still stick to that statement.

Re Jamie Schoolcraft..

Now here is a guy that doesn't waste his time on posting silly postulations, but instead serves his customers and one does get a fast responce on any query.

I ordered a Schoolcraft item way back and the quality and precisionwork is at least as good as Lassens, to me, there is no doubt..

And I should know about mechanical precisionwork, and being able to judge, as my father was a finemechanical engineer and I've an similar education and am very picky about how precision work should be..I investigate stuff like this with a watchmakers eyeglass..

Apart from this, and without any query from my side, Schoolcraft made me an exceptional offer, an offer no other 'dealer' in all my years in magic ever made me.

It's not here to disclose what this is about -and it is not of anybodys business-, but it's just a tiny stone in the overall impression re how nice a guy Schoolcraft is, compared to Todd Lassen.

I've read very nasty mails Todd Lassen did send to some friend of mine, you wouldn't believe the language he used!

Again, it must be more important for Lassen to slag other ppl, then doing his job!

The favour Jamie did me happend a month or so back, and has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion outlined above, I formed my opinion re what to think about Todd Lassen several month back, also backed up to not even getting a responce to a serious order..

The reason for this I know..at *the other board* I told the members re my experince re not even being able to order from that guy and what I therefor thought about his way of doing business..

I'll repeat it here again..

The way he runs his bizz isn't a way to keep and get new customers, he'll find out sooner or later..

Sorry for the long posting, but Lassens ugly posting brings up the worst in me... :rolleyes:

Mr. Seitz. It's not by coincidence that you didn't get a response from me. I read all your cranky posts on Magic Cafe telling me how to run my business and actually going so far as to suggest that I wasn't using my time correctly. You predicted almost the same line that you have written here...that my business will soon fail, etc. and you were very arrogant about the fact that you had money to spend and no one wanted to take it from you. I beleive it all stemmed from the fact that it took me some time to respond to your email about ordering one of my new gravity flipper coins.

Believe it or not, trying to keep up with my emails is almost a full time job in itself. And I apologize to all those that have to wait for a response. But guys that get all demanding and arrogant and go so far as to post publicly about how I should manage my business, etc., are going to get pimped. No doubt. I must add though, that Werner is really one of the very few, maybe actually the only one in the last year or so, that I have ignored because of his attitude.

I think you have found your man Werner, and since you say that quality is the same in your perspective, go for it.Todd Lassen

What you describe as I was telling you how to run your bizz, is/was a simple remark about you should serve your customers, instead of wasting your time in slagging other ppl (Jamie Schoolcraft) under various and different names on *The Cafe*.

Obviously you have the time for THAT, but not for answering customers, wanting to place an order!

What you describe as arrogance, was the simple remark -after a couple of emails didn't get any responce- that money was waiting for you, a 'common' remark often used to accelerate a slow businessman.

It took you some time to respond to my request re your new gravity Flipper???????

You never have responded to that request re price incl. delivery, a request, by yourself asked for on your website, any foreign customer should forward to you..

Accordingly to the above reply from you, it is demanding and arrogant to place an order and beforehand asking for the complete price to forward to you in advance ? :rolleyes:

And yes...I have no intention to order anything from you in the future, you are correct!

I well know, it takes a lot of time to answer emails, but normally within a week or 2 would get accepted, but not even a couple of month could get a result.

You se, a lot of serious businessmen have an autoresponder throwing back a mail that ones request is received and one will get back soon with a responce.

So here is another advice.. as you have such a large clientel -as long as it does last-and so must earn a lot of money, I would suggest you find a such program to give an autofeedback to your customers, that's better then ZERO feedback, in the first place..

And yes, I really think you could need a lot of advice from people who know how to run a business..

My prediction still stands..you'll loose many more customers then 'just' me, the way you run your business..weather you like it or not, I hereby did repeat my arrogant and demanding advice, it's always a pleasure to help out people who need the help :p

For those not having followed the Todd Lassen debat not started by me!) at *The Cafe*, I also have to add, that my above mentioned remarks and suggestion, that one can't run a bizz the way Todd Lassen does, was just ONE of the complains other ppl had re the behaviour of that gentleman and his constant slagging of Mr. Jamie Schoolcrafts products..

I 'just' had to add 'my' story and experiences with that great maker of coingaffs, the only one that can do decent work (accordingly to his own statements in that topic).

So that thread was not at all about my postings telling my experience with Todd Lassen, but was started by other ppl equally annoyed by this gentlemans behaviour and choice of language..

I've hereby said what there is to say and will not respond back to any of Mr. Lassen accusations, whether he calls me 'arrogant' or whatever words he is able to use, I've seen with my own eyes in black and white, the way he communicates with people he dislikes..

After all, he simply shouldn't have the time to continue this rubbishness, for the in the earlier post mentioned reasons

Understandable, he does hold a bit back here at this board, re the language he otherwise does use, but the true Todd Lassen is well known to quite a few people, I just recently got the pleasure... :rolleyes:

I am not taking sides in this but wasn't this feud started over Bob Kohler selling more than the 300 advertised copies of three fly?

Bob Kohler goes a long way at keeping secrets and rightly so. This certainly should extend to Todd Lassen. It was Todd's work which allowed Kohler's 3 fly to sell so many copies. Bob continues selling high priced items because there is a market for it discovered with the 3 fly effect.

Of course the original fingertip coins across has never been published and keeping secrets should extend to Jonathon Townsend.

Originally posted by entity: .... but may I suggest a Christmas ceasefire? Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men (and Women) and all that?

You can always continue hostilities in the New Year.

- entity

Yes my friend :) , but note, who startet this thread, at Xmas time, and during Dean Dills still not too good health.

Also, starting a such thread -what the starter also mentioned and did know in advance- is an invitation to comments, positive or negativ, both sides exists in this 'battle', but not each and everybody speaks his mind, gives a true expression what one does think, one might get excluded/banned from this board?

I've the priviledge, also I do care, not bothering about getting banned, I'm so used to it :D , I prefer to say what I think, and if there is no board left for me to participate, I open my own, so there I then can brag and speak my mind :p

Saying all this..in good spirit,

Merry Xmas to all the good guys (and the nicy girls, especially those with big...eyes ;) , the rest I actually don't care..and I don't like cats, dogs are OK and funny... :)

Why are people worried about how fast one manufacturer can get the coins to the purchaser, when one is stealing the others ideas and material. So one is more prompt with getting his product out. Does that make it ok to steal others work? Every board that has created a thread about this issue has ignored the theft part.I did notice soon after Todd added an east african dime shell set, Schoolcraft had one out there.In 2000-2001 at a convention in St. Louis, Lassen had shared his Triple Threat coin with me. I also remember Todd selling it to one of the performers there. I bring this up because I don't remember Schoolcraft having any product available then.So what is it? Promtness or ethics?

Was the Flipper coin not created by Bob Swadling? I had one of Bob's early english Penny flippers and gave it to Jamie suggesting he try to make one out of a U.S. coin, but to call Swadling to get the OK. Which Jamie DID. I know for a fact as I also phoned Swadling on this.

From my understanding both Lassen and Schoolcraft have a hard time keeping up with orders. I know there are other quality makers out there, as well as hacks, but the market seems to be bigger than the suppliers (of the top quality stuff).

From my understanding both Lassen and Schoolcraft have a hard time keeping up with orders. I know there are other quality makers out there, as well as hacks, but the market seems to be bigger than the suppliers (of the top quality stuff).

So, what's the beef?

I guess 12 paragraphs wasn't enough for some of you. I think I have no more to say, but it is dissappointing that not everyone can decipher my message. I thought it was rather obvious.Todd Lassen

What I find as funny, is that my wife bought the East African Dime set from Jamie in Boston at the July 2005 SAM Convention. It appears on Todds site in August. There seems to be some silly resentment and way too much finger pointing going on. Resentment is simply "I take poison, you die". If everyone would instead just do what they do best, and that is make wonderful gaffs, they would not belittle themselves with cheap shots etc. I know Todd, Jamie and Dean. The world needs all their talents. This whole thread is pointless. Let it go, why is that so hard to do. I respect all their work, own gaffs and magic from all three, and consider them all some of the best there is. Period. Let it go.

Well, if the truth be told, I invented the Flipper Coin. Back when David Roth released his Folding Coins Through The Table and Folding Coins Across my friend and I had a local machinist make us a bunch of folding coins with only one cut. We liked Roths routine so much that it just made sense to have a custom folding coin for it. From there, the idea of affixing the folder inside a shell coin was a natural progression.

Of course, this was way after Eddy Taytelbaum, Phil Postma or Bob Swadling had the idea. But it convinces me that its not unlikely that lots of people had the idea of a flipper coin. And since no one seems to have patented the idea, no one has a legal right to complain of someone makes one, or improves the design.

In this case however, there shouldn't be a too large span of time between when one person got the idea and when another one got the same idea, if there are years between, the first one definitively can claim to be the inventor.

In case of the Flipper, as we konw it today, it looks to be Phil Postma, as Swadling years later first came up wityh the idea.

This issue is currently investigated to get this discussion settled once and for all..

Either Postma or Swadling do deserve to get this cleared up..

More will get known when Eddy Taytelbaum has responded to a query, WHEN Postma came up with the idea, others might try to get Swadling to come up with the date he thinks he got the idea...

Hold yer horses a minute there Craigster, no one said anything about resentment. You can get good and POd without resenting anyone. In fact, the whole resentment vibe seems to seep from the other side of the fence. That whole Cafe atmosphere seems to reek of dirty politics, whacked out egos, and censorship with a 3rd world feel to it. I don't think there are many oblivious do-gooders in the lot. So far Richard has allowed this to be a public place where I can come and blow off some steam. It's not pointless...I'm releasing man, and with all the dink rumors and fake weasely stories that I hear, sometimes it seems to be a "need to know" situation. People need to know what is going on. I ain't making this crap up. And in my opinion, right now Triple Threat is the hottest gaff to hit the coin world. It was a long time coming and Troy and I had alot of time, effort, and resources invested. To knock that off a week after Troy lectures on it, and to go as far as placing a full page ad, headlining your website with it, and getting Brad Henderson to review it for you, etc, etc., is rather playing hard ball, wouldn't you agree? No one in the magic community ever complains about getting knocked off...right? That would be pointless. Suppose I go around and knock off everything Joe Porper makes, or anyone else for that matter. I could. It would be pointless for them to complain about it...right? And another thing that really torques my jowls...to charge $100 above what I charge for a gaff that takes HALF the time and love that I put into every one of these is the biggest insult of all. So all you guys that think Dill and Schoolcraft are just a couple of nice guys, think again...from my perspective. And happy holidays to all.Todd Lassen

Originally posted by Wayne McEwan: My post on This subject at magiccafe gotdeleated....

Yes Wayne. As Steve Brooks might have told you, it is not okay to mention unpersons there or discuss cafe policy on the open BBS Threads.

The place has to be monitored like a playground in order to be safe for children. And yes, it is intended to be safe for children, not just the young at heart. So no discussing card tricks using mis indexed cards with patter about pre-operative transsexuals or transvestites.

By the way, first Dan Watkins's response to your post got deleted, so I sent you a PM.

Todd seems to be doing okay. And take it from someone who knows, it does not feel good to be copied without permission.

As a very small entry to this record, I've been completely happy with the extraordinary quality and above-and-beyond service I've encountered in dealing with Todd Lassen. I have not been happy with the business practices of some of the others named here. If you want the best in coin magic, more-then-fair pricing, and a pleasant human being at the other end, Todd is the man.

I get that the basic, unmagnetized concept belongs to Connie Haden. I get that the idea of the shim belongs to R. Paul Wilson. What I'm not clear on: whose idea was it for the shims to have different magnetic properties so that you could get the "two" to look as good as the "one"?