About last night …

Michel Therrien’s explanation for benching his leading scorer for most of the third period in a game the Canadiens trailed by two goals:
“Team concept is very important.
“That will never, never, never change.”
Three “never”s.
Very emphatic.
Let’s see if we can top the kindly old coach:
The Canadiens will never, never, never, never make the playoffs if Therrien screws up P.K. Subban.

And the coach was not content with benching the Canadiens’ best player.

Down two goals late, Therrien did not bother pulling goaltender Peter Budaj.

What message does that send to his team?

“You bozos will never, never, never, never, never score a goal anyway, so I’m not even going to let you have an extra skater to try.”

And if I’m P.K., I’m on the phone to my agent Thursday morning telling Don Meehan to take my next contract to arbitration and then get my ass out of Neverland.

OK, that’s a bit extreme.

But the benching – along with a half-season’s worth of lukewarm, grudging praise from Therrien and general manager Marc Bergevin – has to have P.K. wondering whether the Canadiens’ braintrust is giving him the respect his talent deserves.

Canadiens fans love him.

General managers of 29 other teams would love to have him.

But in the executive suite of the Bell Centre, Subban seems to be something of an enfant mal aimé.

Maybe it’s because in their pre-game interviews with RDS’s Pierre Houde, P.K.’s hat was snazzier than Bergevin’s green shirt.

If the Canadiens were being run out of the Wells Fargo Center, maybe the coach sends a few messages. But this was a winnable hockey game, and the best skater wasn’t on the ice.

Yes, Subban took a bad and selfish penalty at the end of the second period.

As the siren sounded, he was roughed up behind the Canadiens’ net by Philadelphia fourth-liner Chris Vandevelde. A scrum ensued, and P.K. took an ill-advised poke at Sean Couturier.

Subban began the third period in the penalty box. Then he skated to the Canadiens’ bench, where Therrien kept him for the next 10 minutes.

The message was old-school and perfectly clear: You hurt the team, so you sit.

OK, fine.

But I guess the Western Union office closed before Therrien could send a message to Rene Bourque, who has yet to record a point in 16 road games this season.

Or to Max Pacioretty, who was comatose for 40 minutes but took a regular shift in the third period.

Or to whoever is drawing up a power play that has become predictable, easily defended and consequently impotent.

There was no shortage of potential message recipients. The Canadiens were awful.

Nor can he be blamed for the way this flawed team has stumbled and bumbled since the beginning of December. It’s frightening to imagine where the Canadiens would be without the only player who can be relied upon to consistently move the puck into the offensive zone or pass it to forwards in motion.

Here’s the message someone should be transmitting to Therrien: P.K. Subban is your best skater … by a lot.

Quit effing with him.

How will the benching of P.K. play in the Canadiens’ room?

Short-term results were not promising. They had five shots on goal in the third period.

The better indicator will come Saturday night, when the Stanley Cup champions visit the Bell Centre.

If the Canadiens play as badly against Chicago as they did in Philadelphia, the Hawks could duplicate that pasting L.A. laid on the home side Dec. 10.

• • •

Two Guest Comments, from the game blog thread:

Adidess wrote

Ok, I missed the game tonight. Looks like the only thing of consequence I missed is the benching of PK on a night where apparently most players didn’t come to play.

You know, I have tried to follow MT’s actions and thought process closely since his infamous “making PK a better player and better person” proclamation, which I continue to find laughably weird considering the well-rounded person Subban is.

But hear me out here… Could it be that one night after having been named on Team Canada as part of the elite among the elite in the NHL, and only a few months after Subban won the Norris Trophy, MT came into this game thinking he might need to start breaking this guy again to reinstate the fears, doubts, fake humility he’d rather see in Subban’s eyes or maybe just so that PK understands the coach is not done ‘correcting’ him?

Okay, I’m speculating wildly here, but does that penalty deserve that response when we’re talking about the team’s best player and we’re down 3-1.

And from my friend J.Ambrose.Obrien:

I really didn’t have a big issue with the benching, nor the refusal to pull Budaj. In the context of such a listless performance, I can forgive Therrien’s frustration. But that doesn’t change my opinion that MT is not a good fit for this club. And I do find his relationship with PK strained and strange. Am I the only one who found it odd that, while stating how he thought Carey deserved to be on the national team, he then added “and PK, too” almost as an afterthought ?

I’m not sure i watched the same game as everyone else but I wish today that I had PVR’d it last night.
It probably wasn’t just the penalty that got PK benched. He had at least 4 or 5 faux pas when handling the puck in his own zone and the “O” zone. The penalty may have was probably just the icing on the cake for MT. Do I agree with the benching? NO! The whole team played like s**t all night but you can’t bench them all. In fact it didn’t work for Murray, Bouillon, Eller, or Diaz and Bourque. The whole team needs a shot in the arm and I’m not sure firing the coach is the answer. I think more talent is. By a process of deduction, that means getting rid of some people.
PS: I would put Murray, Bouillon, Parros and Bourque in the press box (or where ever) for the rest of the year and call up help. These guys are done and the team is suffering because of them. Meritacracy? Haha.

“Being on the PP doesn’t make you an offensive threat anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.”
Henry Ford

Why are people surprised about Subban’s lukewarm support by the Canadiens’ administration? Historically, players who don’t ‘take their place’ and rock the boat, get tarred and feathered by Habs’ brass.

Patrick Roy, Guy Carbonneau, Shayne Corson, Mike Ribeiro, Chris Chelios, were all shown the door because they no longer fit with the Canadiens’ corporate image. In all the cases cited, a star player was thrown out of the club and damned little was received in return. It’s better to put up zeroes everywhere, like Rene Bourque, and say nothing, than to play with passion, make a mistake or two like Subban. Welcome to the conservative corporate world of the Montreal Canadiens.

If Subban is traded, or leaves Montreal, the person to blame is Geoff Molson, who hired Bergevin to make hockey decisions. Bergevin hired Therrien… hopefully if push comes to shove, Therrien, a .550 career coach, is shown the door, not a player who has just cracked the very talented lineup of Team Canada.

Excellent. And note that this corporate/protect-the-money attitude coincided with the Stanley Cup drought. If the Habs continue with this corporate attitude…. then how are they different than Toronto? We expect the Habs to be about winning – it’s how we want them to be different that Toronto’s corporate focus. Molson better do that or.. well, they’ll make money but we don’t get anything i.e. don’t expect a Cup parade.

i just wonder if you, me and pk were the only ones who saw the play correctly”

you have a fourth here Mr. Cobb

i liked it when i saw the play. pk was getting roughed up. he gave the guy a punch in the mouth with his glove on. a canadien pushing back. for his team and him self. mt is an immature bush league coach. team was playing poorly (again) reflects on him just how poorly….and looked for someone to take it out on. then when it came to his job of pulling the goalie, he acyually took his ball and went home!! this is a professional? this is the guy to lead the great montreal canadiens. there is no leadership on this team. they treat pk as if he is some kind of threat. club has issues. major issues.

If the Habs fall and somehow miss the playoffs, I’ll be completely on board with replacing Therrien….maybe with Guy Boucher. By the way, Boucher is a lot more offensive-minded than many people think. He did what he thought he had to do and possibly made some mistakes as an inexperienced NHL coach, but I think he has the hockey knowledge to get a fair bit out of some of the Habs players. His junior teams scored quite a few goals.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

I’d be willing to place him as an assistant coach to feel out his learning curve. But I’m biased – I like the guy and I also want Carbo back. Ideally – I wanted Muller. I’m from Kingston and heard about him when he was back in Kingston coaching. It seemed his knowledge of sports psychology (I’m not as knowledgeable w.r.t. hockey tactics) was impressive. And his results were excellent.

99% of people in the civilized world knew MT was a no good useless NHL Coach, but yet MB could not see it? I don’t think for one New York minute that MT was a fill in till a qualified Francophone Coach became available.

The #1 job of a Coach is to get his players to play hockey & win. Talking to the Media is secondary. Any die hard Habs fan should not care if the coach can speak French, if they do then they don’t deserve a team.

If MB or GM is waiting for the next best Francophone Coach then it will be another 20 years before Montreal wins another Stanley Cup!

I get your signature and generally agree, but it is the media that demands a Francophone coach, and the organization listens to that.

Some of the best players and coaches to ever play for the Habs were Anglo, and probably unilingual to boot. Not sure if Pollock or Bowman were, but I’m willing to bet their French was not as fluent as their English….

The point about waiting for a Franco coach to lead them to the Stanley cup is legit. If you can’t go out and hire the best available coach strictly because of the language they speak, you are handcuffing the organization.

Well-put… I work in a bilingual school (Spanish/English) and the people we hire are always the best possible…. How do we do it? We translate when needed…. Good grief, it is not that complicated…. this is the year 2014.

No one’s denying that the Habs’ current record under Therrien is good, or that the Habs’ record since his re-hiring is good.

The problem is that over the last 25 games (yes, including the last half of the win streak) Therrien has changed the Habs into a regressing, bottom-tier team that is routinely outplayed/outpossessed. That wasn’t the case last year or for the first few weeks of this year.

Like his time in Pittsburgh, his early success is being followed by a long stretch of struggles. The worst part is, like his time in Pittsburgh, Therrien seems unwilling/unable to (re-)adjust accordingly. All coaches need to adjust at times (i.e. admit they had the wrong idea for the team they have), and the good ones do (or at leas the one’s without big heads). Again, I see every sign that Therrien sees himself in the right and most individual players on his team as, by some trick, simultaneously struggling with his clever dump-and-chase changes – i.e. “not my fault”.

I think a GM with foresight would be justified in firing Therrien if this continues to the Olympic break. The issue isn’t his overall record. If that’s all that mattered, a whole lot of coaches would never have been fired. The issue is what’s been going on for two months and the signs that it’ll continue. If it would be best for the team, the GM should act, and the availability of certain other french coaches should affect the decision. They won’t be available for long, and we don’t want another dud.

I liked that analysis actually. Listless play is often a result of players who don’t care. And if players no longer care, who else is there to blame but the coach, whose job it is to motivate and teach.

Therrien is part of the team in my opinion, as are the assistant coaches the physios the GM and on down and up the line. When he starts using that term team all the time and then excepts himself from the concept, and thus any blame for last night then he’s surely bound to lose the room.

Man, to give up on a game cannot be the message you want to send to your players, no matter how crap the effort was.

Montreal Canadiens head coach Michel Therrien liked what he saw from Alex Galchenyuk at center on Saturday.

” The positive (in this game) is the adjustment we made with Galchenyuk playing [center] with Pacioretty and Gallagher. It’s something we’ve been thinking about and we decided to do it in the third period and I was really pleased. This is an experiment that we’re going to repeat again.”

November 7th-2013
It looks like Alex Galchenyuk will be back on the wing for Thursday’s match-up against Ottawa……

People wanting a coaching change and looking at Kivi(?) or Boucher should know that in the unlikely event the coach is fired, we’d probably get an interim from one of the assistants or even from Sylvain Lefebvre.

Combine MT’s actions last night and MB’s ill-advised comments about PK and the conspiracy theorist in me starts to wonder if there isn’t something going on with how the Habs are sabotaging the contract negotiations with their star player.

An RFA offer sheet appears that they don’t match and they avoid having to give him a $55M+ contract

It’s Molson’s money. I doubt he is worried about paying PK what he deserves. As far as MB, that’s likely part of his negotiation, which I think is ridiculous.
No way PK is going anywhere unless PK can’t take the heat.
I think he can.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

Because it’s really not that bad. The team is heading in the right direction. Maybe he likes the core and believes the Habs are on the right track.

Time will tell. If PK doesn’t want to play here, he’ll leave. I think and hope he does want to play here. If he signs even a 2 year contract, chances are Therrien will be gone before he is…and then he can sign long-term since the majority believe any other coach would be better than Therrien.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

If it comes down to a 2 year contract, PK is probably gone. He knows how good he is, and if the team that he dreamed of playing for as a kid doesn’t share that opinion, he’ll move on with a huge chip on his shoulders. And if the Habs find a way to screw up the retention of a generational player like Subban, they need to have their heads examined.

That is hilarious ! Being a Montrealer livng in Orange County California for the past 27 years , I remember Wandas as my first at a girlie bar and I was there every night afterwards fior about 5 years then to Chez Paree … ahh the warm FUZZY memories …

Man, i was just back and forthing with lagerhab and got me thinking about the whole Tremblay/Roy debacle in 95….First how did Molson Inc, let Ronald Cory bring in houle and tremblay, and how did Molson inc. allow Cory to keep tremblay and part with their franchise/face of the team player. Fore me tremblay would’ve been gone the next day.

Anyway, if you guys go on montreal canadiens 1995-96 wikipedia, there are quite a few points on roy and tremblay’s broken relationship going as far back as these guys being roommates. It is really quite interesting. Can’t believe Cory would go ahead and make that coaching choice as he undoubtably knew about this strained relationship. check it out. I would post the link where you guys just have to click, but don’t know how!

When you start every practice with shot blocking drills thats where your problem begins. One of the best games of the year was the Dallas game. I don’t mean best in terms of the win but in terms of fun to watch. The blow horn after goals are scored in Montreal are to wake us up because something happened…
“Habs” Watch and learn….! Or Not!

At this point, I’m really struggling to understand why Guy Boucher’s sitting at home like a goon while that mustard-stained a**hole screws the Habs up in both the short and long term by alienating PK.

No exaggeration, if management’s arrogance forces PK to walk, I’m done with this team. For real. It’s bad enough I had to sit through almost 20 years of abject garbage post-Roy. I’m not doing it again.

It’s more than the TOI. The benching, the general manner with which he’s handled; can you think of any other NHL superstar – because make no mistake, that’s precisely what PK is – whose team treats him this way?

Personally I believe this team is two moves away from going far into the playoffs. First move: replace MT with someone like Boucher or even Wilson or any coach that is better at getting his point across and has an approach that involves motivation and intensity. Second move: Trade Gionta and a draft pick for someone who is better in the room and on the ice who can lead by example and by presence.

Coaching staff is always about having the team improve and be ready.
So now a question for MT supporters.
Our starting point is the beginning of the year. Since then, how have the following improved:
Eller, Emelin, Gorges, Galchenyuk, Briere, Bournival, Bourque, 5 on 5 play, PP, the fore-check, clearing the zone, game readiness and playing with a lead just to name a few?

Eller started the season looking like he was about to take a leap forward, but has really regressed over the last two months. Why? Is it his own play, or the ways he’s been used and the minutes or linemates he’s been given? He has moments of brilliance, but has not come along as I expected based on the end of last year and the start of this one.

Same goes for Galchenyuk. Prior to the injury, it seemed like he had lost his confidence. Some of it may be attributed to the grind of the NHL schedule, but I think his use by the coach was also a contributing factor. I mean, no PP time for a guy this talented?!?! A supreme waste of such obvious skill and counter-intuitive to development.

Bournival has been bumped all over the lineup and needs to be given a chance to develop some chemistry and learn the NHL game. Hard to do that when you are sitting, then playing 4th line, then playing 2nd line, then 3rd, etc.

I think the others are more related to where they are at as players.

Emelin is coming off major knee surgery and is clearly not where he should be physically and mentally. Hard to jump in part way through a season. The Olympic break might be good for him.

Gorges is a nice player, but is probably being asked or required to do more than he is really capable of. A glue guy, but not a puck mover and not as physically effective as his effort level would like him to be.

Bourque and Briere are what they are at this stage in their careers. Unmotivated most of the time and lacking the tenacity and courage that would make the most of their skills.

Ultimately I think the coach has not done a great job motivating and helping his players be the best they can, and putting them in situations to succeed. I haven’t watched 24CH, but it would not surprise me if he is more interested in berating players than he is in reinforcing the positive aspects of their games.

I have little doubt that PK will be the first person to admit that he took a stupid penalty and got what he deserved. Down in the game, it’s an idiotic time to take a penalty in a scrum. Refs call one number plenty of times and they sure like to call #76. I am sure PK knows it and knows he went too far. It’s hard to condone the benching of our best player, but as far as hurting Subban’s pride, I wouldn’t worry about that much. He’s a mensch, he’ll handle it as such.

I just wish the princess wearing #67 would get the same treatment from the coach once in a while. Of course, he never gets within a mile of a scrum, except to shove Chara in the back after the game is over….

It reminds me of Sutter benching Drouin in the Jr’s. Why not just make them miss one shift and then say to them….you know what you did wrong and don’t do it again. No need to hurt the team to prove a point to one player when the entire forward core was sleeping.

We need help on forward big time. I know we need to build for the future but this team needs to make a trade of some D for forwards. We have depth at D but forward we don’t have much coming anytime soon.

I agree with you, just sit a guy for a shift, make your point, and then try to win the game. I wonder if Subban is getting bigger in the room, and his benching was to make a point to the whole team. If that’s the case, it’s almost over for MT.

As far as getting forward depth, we’ve got a package of old guys we need to move for younger stock: Plekanec, Markov, Gionta, etc. but so long as we’re in a playoff position it’ll never happen. I don’t think we’re that deep on defense, since once you remove Markov you’ve got a gaping hole. We have a slew of young prospects that are yet to ripen; in a couple years that depth may make itself apparent and only then will we be able to make the kind of trade you’re hoping for.

I’m in the blow-it-up, clear the deadweight camp, but it’s pretty much a forlorn hope.

Playoffs or no playoffs this team is not a contender currently and really has no strong shot at a cup. We may squeek out a round but money talks in the business and Molson won’t want to miss extra revenue.

We are deep on D if keep Markov for 3 years and PK is signed long term. Pateryn needs to be up in the NHL. He played in University and from what I have seen is ready for NHL playing time. I would move Diaz. He is too soft but he can make a good first pass so he does have some value. I am thinking he isn’t resigned because there is a few moving parts at the moment on what to do with next year’s team.

Maybe Gallagher, Gorges, Bourque and a 1st for Kane. Gallagher is a top 6 guy and Gorges is a stay at home guy who blocks shots and will help their PK and Bourque hopfully needs a change of scenery.

Not sure that they would make that deal though but Gallagher is a great forward and I wouldn’t want to lose him but for Kane that would be worth it just for his size factor.

The shove that got him a taste of the stanchion. The reason Chara tried to kill him. The retaliation was heavy, but the little b#$!& shove is what made it happen. Pacioretty is kind of a punk, in my books.

I know exactly which “shove” you’re talking about.
The only reason Chara the goon even retaliated is because he’s a poor sport.
He figures he’s Goliath, and no one should have the moxy to shove him around a little.
If there was someone who was considered the princess in that situation, it was that big goon.
He’s lucky I’m not on the disciplinary committee.

Eh, I don’t disagree that Chara’s got the Goliath mentality, but the shove was a peewee move from a player who shouldn’t be trying to play at being tough. #67 is anything but tough, except when it comes to healing from injuries. I can’t think of a dumber ‘sore winner’ move and I don’t fault Chara for taking umbrage. I’d be looking for the guy too.

If MT wants to make someone a better person, maybe start with Pacioretty because he’s the Invisible Man when he’s not scoring. It’s frustrating to watch Subban take all the heat for the team from his coach when other players are allowed to go their merry way and never have to pay a price.

Sorry Jim, but dumping on MB because MT is struggling with the troops isn’t what I would consider as positive reinforcement.
MB’s job isn’t to coach, but to structure the team for long-terms success. If we look at what he’s done with the scouting program, and his adjustments for lowering our GAA by hiring Waite, I think he’s doing a very good job.
And I believe him when he says that he’s actively looking for players needed for fill voids, like the elite C or another big D.
And I also believe him when he says that they’re just not available right now.
But he needs to reel MT in somewhat for this disturbing convoluted approach with PK. That’s the only issue that really irks me.
Well that and the fact that Bourque is still playing. He should be in the rafters.
Totally useless.
I say a straight trade back to Calgary for Cammy.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Bourque is “O” for……
He has what…. 7 points in 30 games.
I would bet that one or more of the Bulldog send-ups have more points in the NHL than he does.
For the first time in a while, I can’t even think of defending MT. They should have injected his a** with ibuprofen for even CONSIDERING benching PK for that long, let alone doing it.
I’ve read many comments regarding MT’s push to make PK a better person, and up until now, I’ve summed it up as a language translation issue.
But when you’re best player (by a mile, except for Plex and Carey) has an off-shift (you’ll notice Max, that I didn’t say a write-off night) and pulls a no-no which translates into a 2-minutes in the box, you don’t sit him for any length of time. Talk about a serious brain cramp.
I watched Bourque closely (during the times when I didn’t change channels because of the team’s embarrassing performance – or lack thereof), and maaaaaaan, he’s just brutal. Totally brutal.
No effort, no emotion, no reaction, no push and no points.
He dumps the puck, meanders in, gives the opposing D (whom he has 20 pounds on) a “meh” girly tug, and raises his arm to be replaced.
I’m no longer willing to defend MT, the team standings notwithstanding.
The beginning of the year was outstanding, but the league has figured out the one-dimensional strategy. The PP isn’t working, the youth are no longer exuberant, the old guys (hi Gio, Gorges and Moen) are just that …. old. (Ironic coming from a grandfather).
When you know that the opposition has figured out that you are a D-first team, then it’s time to show your coaching abilities and change strategies.
We have speed. Use it!
We have vision. Use it!
Give the guys some vitamins, or uppers, or something!
And stop benching Subban, before he calls his agent and asks to get him the hell out of Dodge.

Who would seriously spend a second round pick on Bourque?
And the team has been trying to get him to improve ever since he got here.
I don’t think having either of Bournival or Leblanc on the third in place of Bourque would hurt the team all the much.
At one point, you have to cut your losses, and as of now, Bourque is one we lost.

Totally agree with your approach. Instead of looking on this side of the bench one should look on the ice. Put aside the ones that you find met or exceeded your expectations (there are not that many) and look at the other ones that for many reasons have not met expectations maybe because they just do not have it in them. You cannot make filet mignon with minced meat we say in french, that`s basically the situation in Montreal. Until the farm team is functionnal and the heavy deals from the past done with, we have to squeeze all the juice we can from what we have. If it`s not enough then we must be patient and make the moves when it`s time.

I think Bergevin is following his plan, is actually ahead of where he thought he would be but is way more patient than so called HIO experts.

Bergevin seems to be in for the long, at least as it relates to his approach, he’s not been sacrificing picks or prospects, he has not made any real trades of much worth, he’s sitting on a team that he hopes will improve over time, which is ok, we have a solid group of young players.

Draft in that case is very important, but the team is already good enough, in a weak East division, to be in the top teams ensuring we get late in the rounds draft picks.

Heh I better stop now, this line of thought only leads to professing the team should tank….

I don’t care what anyone says! If you want to punish Subban for a stupid selfish act you don’t give up 2 points to prove your point. Come April those 2 points may be the difference between making the playoffs or not with the ressurging Islanders, Rangers and Carolina.
The gap isn’t that big!

I don’t agree! We’ve been watching them all year play 2 periods where they can’t do anything. But when they do come back who’s usually the one skating up the ice with the puck making it happen! Its certainly not Murray!

Like it or not, he will not be fired anytime soon. Bergevin and Therrien seem to be on the same page, so he isn’t going anywhere for the time being. And, unless there is an epic collapse and the Habs miss the playoffs this year, Therrien will still be the Habs coach come September 2014.

Stupid move by MT, benching PK like that. It was an ego move by MT, nothing less. A ridiculous way of making sure everyone knows “I am in charge”. Find a different way of handling PK. Maybe talking to him during an intermission and saying something like “PK, please keep your head on straight…the Flyers want you off the ice, they know the damage you can do…don’t let them.”

But no…go with benching him yourself and playing right into the Flyer’s hands. Nice way to help the “team concept”.

Let me say this. If PK pulls a Patrick Roy and demands a trade….If I were Mr Molson, I would not make the same mistake they made with Roy. There was a loooooooooong gap beteen Roy and Price of useless goaltenders.

Subban mentioned he called his junior coach right after getting named to Team Canada. Guarantee when he lifts a cup he won’t be calling Therrien who will be sitting on the panel providing “insightful” tidbits of when he coached Subban.

Good point. I am on the fence with it myself. I think it could have been turned into a positive by pointing out that he was the only one showing any emotion or passion.

I also agree with MT showing PK that it may have been bad timing (his opinion and he’s the coach). I truly believe if that happens at the Olympics, PK will be in a lot of trouble as far as ice-time goes. I wonder if Babcock sees that and cringes just a tiny bit.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

Your hockey team is presently 8 points into a playoff spot. Admittedly that 8 points looked better with only one game in hand on Detroit. Every team sets goals at the start of the season. Your team is on track to achieve theirs. Win some/lose some over the rest of the season will take them there. Some nights they aren’t really going to have that edge.

That said, seven D? Why not put Gorges up if you’re carrying 7? The puck is always bouncing into their net off him, slip him onto a line and hope it bounces into the Philly net. Everybody gets a laugh, he gets teased to death, and the season gets shorter.

Anybody consider that PK sat for a few on the bench to prevent him doing something stupider while he cooled down? Course not. The guy started calling out officials the other day. That’s part of why you love him. High strung and passionate. The NHL in NY doesn’t care much for that. Right call by the coach.

With so few choices for a change in coaching it gets tiring around here. We have about 3 choices of veteran coaches and most of them have been in the Habs system before. So we could get a junior coach. The sky will fall if that happens. I am more concerned that other teams have figured how to shut down the power play and we haven’t come up with something to counter rather to get bent out of shape for our star defenseman missing a few shifts.

Why for the life of me did MT start Budaj? Price was well rested and they knew that Philly was 9-0 at home and 5-1 coming off of a western swing. Don’t get it and especially the benching of PK. I too belive that the team is starting to tune the coach out. Time for a shake-up on the roster and coaching staff. Let’s not wait until we miss the playoffs befor efiring this clown and hire the best coach period not limiting it to just ‘french’ speaking BS coaches. Christ this is the the most valued team in NHL History and they deserve the best coach out there not a washed up has been.

He is doing things to this team that MT used to trash Martin about on LA!!

I agree with everything except you are being too kind to say that Therrien is a washed up has been. That would imply that he ever was any good. As for PK, he makes fewer mistakes of any type than most inferior players, and has much greater upside. I see nothing to indicate he is a selfish player. He is enthusiastic and cares alot about winning, something that apparently must be quelled by every Habs management team since 1995.

In the middle of the game Gallant answers cellphone, talks briefly, then walks over to Therrien and tells him MB wants him upstairs, pronto!
Stunned, Therrien leaves the bench. A couple of minutes later television cameras spot him being dressed down by Bergevin who then motions him to take a seat.
For the next 10 minutes MB pointedly ignores his coach and then with the wave of a hand, signals him to leave.
Therrien returns to the bench, resumes his stance — and wonders how the hell did the team score three goals while he was absent.

My scenario is slightly different. Gallant has a headset passed to him. He listens attentively for a minute, all the while nodding his head. He then removes the headset and walks directly behind Therrien. Gallant’s hand reaches up between Therrien’s neck and shoulder. Therrien goes down and is helped into the dressing room by the trainers.
Gallant takes over and wins the game. When he returns to the room, he sees Therrien lying on his back mumbling all the while. Gallant bends his ear to Therrien so he can hear “Never…..never…never…”

In actual fact, the season has gone very well. Adversity can be a good thing. Hopefully the issues are looked into and worked on. If the management and caching staff can recognize what the troubles are and will be going down the stretch, they can fix it before it gets really bad. I’m confident in our group….some of the best hockey people in the league.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

Adversity is one thing. Mismanagement is completely something else. Even the strongest dude will succumb under the kind of crap that PK is enduring in this organization. If it keeps up they are going to ruin a great talent.

Like a dog owner who’s dog bites a neighbor. He’s on notice that his dog is dangerous. This morning Bergevin is on notice that his coach is a loose cannon and dangerous for the development of his young star players.

Never thought that there would be so much barking about D-men playing on their opposite side and how much of a change it is. I guess if it’s a big deal for the olympic team, it should say something about the habs D. (i know things are different on the big ice surface) But the Habs D consists of 2 righties (Diaz and PK) and the rest are all lefties. Maybe MB has to address that. I’m gonna go and check hamilton’s D, and see what is going on down there.

Oh and never bench PK again, or he’s going to be walking on into the sunset and probably end up playing with his brother malcom…..could you even imagine that scenario!

WOW!

oh and hey everybody only another year and a half will we have to put up with MT……MB won’t offer this guy another contract, he’s too smart. I think!

I can’t remember the last time PK has taken a game off let alone a shift. He is always working, he comes to play every single game. His mistakes are usually associated with his excellent compete level. Why then is he singled out when just about every other player save Gally and Price have floated for shifts and in some cases whole games?
I can accept mistakes from our most talented player, especially when he is competing, its the lazy mistakes that burn me and PK makes few of those.

I know PK is smart and he has a good agent, Meehan knows what is going on and he can help PK at times like this.

I liked the hiring of MB, didn’t care for MT but I am really starting to questions their motives with this player.

I got to thinking last night, and I couldn’t come up with a similar situation where a GM or Coach of a team has treated their star player, a player who has just won a major reward, a player who brings it every night, a player who just two days ago was named to the best Olympic team, like MB and MT have in the last 24 hours!

Oh wait, there was that one situation about 20 years back involving a certain star goaltender and an idiot former player/head coach!
Worrisome!

This is true…..but the tender situation in Montreal is more delicate than any situation in any major sporting market. Carey and the fans have mended their relationship and will be fine for long time. Now with PK, this guy knows the fans love him, loves playing in montreal, Molson won’t let this guy go, therefore MB won’t let him go, therefore MT will go. PK will get a huge contract but the term is going to be short, just to make MB sweat a little, and when the new coach comes in (kirk muller and robinson) everything will be good again in Montreal. (for a day or two)

Not much else to add here. I just wish we could play a good game again.

I can’t remember last time this team play a good, solid 60 minute of hockey. And that is frustranting. And I think it is frustranting for MT too. My issue here is how MT deal with his frustrations.

The last 20 minutes of last night hockey game was unbelievable. Based on his decisions last night I only can imagine that MT has the total control of the locker room. Otherwise I can not see this team giving 100% for his coach next few games.

Of course, I am very far away from Montreal, from the team (daily basis), from the locker room. And maybe they are just fine, laughing about all this and planning on how to play a great game against Chicago…………oh man…

It always depends on what type of caoch you want for your team. That is step one before you hire the guy.

What kind of coach did this team need when Bergevin took over ? Authority or players coach (buddy buddy). In the situation i think they needed an authority figure to re assemble a team that was obviously in a sad shape and left to survive on it`s own. It was not just a problem with the former coach, it was deeper that that and the whole structure was rotten.

Although i can understand that some are mad against the coach and disapointed about players, one must look at the big picture. Nobody said it was CUP TIME , nobody said we were there yet, nobody said this year was the year. I still think this team is doing better than expected but it needs time like seasons . Will the same players and the coach be there when we reach the top ? Remains to be seen but one must not think that we are there yet.

Amazing to read these comments, including the ones from Boone. You’d think none of you have ever watched an NHL game. PK must be the only great player to ever be benched for a few minutes in the history of the NHL.
Look, I don’t agree with it. I think he should have turned it into a positive, told the others that PK was the only one to show passion, go kill that penalty and get some goals!
But to get all up in arms….FFS this is not the first time Therrien used tough love on PK, and if you hear PK talking, he has thanked and praised the coach and the staff for helping him all season. Sure you can say he has to say that, but he can just not say anything if he’s upset. PK said so himself…all he cares about is what he himself thinks and what his coach thinks.

It never ceases to amaze me how everyone freaks out over nothing here. If PK is not happy, he won’t sign here. If he’s not happy cause he’s whining about a benching, I don’t want him here. My bet is that he’s not really concerned with that at all, and he’ll sign here because he’s had success here and he wants to play in the greatest hockey city on Earth, despite the insanity of some posters and some journalists on a Habs Fan Site.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

You can’t treat everyone the same way. What works for some players may not work for others. A coach needs to know his players. Some need tough love and some need to be pampered. People have diferent personalities and need different treatment.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

PK doesn’t need anything from Therrien, was fine before him and is succeeded despite his BS. Davey and Max need baby treatment and pat on the backs? That just causes resentment in the room from guys who are actually earning there opportunities.

Hey Habsrule, I like that you often bring another perspective on here.
But I have to wonder, don’t you feel like the team is regressing or struggling?
They are not as good as they were at seasons start.
PP is going down, shots are down, while we allow more, it’s tough to be positive seeing those, and besides the team looks anemic too often on the ice.

As for Subban, if it were just one thing, I’d agree with you, but it seems such things follow him all the time, and has such it might weigh on him after it accumulates.

All I can see is that PK seems to appreciate his coaches. If he didn’t he could just not talk about them at all.

As far as the team regressing….yes, I see it. Same thing happened last year around this time. Perhaps that has more to do with the wear on many of our smaller/softer players. The PP needs some work. Let’s not forget there are 20 other teams working hard to adjust their PK to the top PP’s in the league. Let’s also remember that the Habs line-up is void of stars besides PK, and maybe Max is getting there. On paper this club should probably be fighting for a playoff spot, but for much of Therrien’s tenure, they have been among the top teams in the conference. I’m hoping that with all the great hockey minds in the organization, they will finish strong, but at the end of the day, they are a couple good players away from contention.

Go Habs Go!!

“Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

MESSAGE TO BERGEVIN AND MOLSON
Your retread experiment with Therrien is over!

No tread left on this tire at all. He has taken this club as far as his ability as coach can take it.

Find a coach that knows how to work a game plan with the talent he has been provided. Not have the talent conform to a plan that is not working night after night, while restricting exuberance and creativity.!!

This coach cannot adjust the power play or the 5 on 5, except to change up his lines and D pairings all the time! He does not have what it takes to get this team to the next level.
Goodby Therrien!

Hey ! There is always a first ! First time i disagree with you sir ! You are not looking at the big picture. This team is not at the level you think it is. It does not have all that it takes to complete the puzzle and only time will help it to get what needs to be added.

You are blaming the coach for not reaching goals he cannot reach with that group of players and it is not fair.

You are absolutely correct when you say that he does not have what it takes to get this team to the next level. It`s on the ice that he does not have what it takes. It has been proven in the last seasons but a plan is in the works to fix a few problems. Give it time !

-We seem to have gone downhill ever since the defensive pairings were broken up. Would like to see Subban and Markov paired together again. If it’s not broke don’t fix it.

-The PP hasn’t looked good for a while now. I know the DD line was originally given PP time earlier in the year to spark that line, but recently that first wave has been atrocious. Watching Gallagher and Desharnais lose puck battles down low and along the boards is just painful.

I don’t have the stats, but at the beginning of the year when the PP was effective Eller seemed to have a lot more PP time. Eller has the size to win puck battles and also has those quick little movements on his feet which allows him to create space for himself. He also really good vision as displayed last night with that pass to Bouillon.

For the record, I do understand teams have adjusted their PKs and are giving a lot less space to Subban and Markov up high. However, this creates space down low, which at the moment we can’t seem to take advantage of. I believe Eller would help in this regard.

I’m going to the Olympics. I’ve won a Norris Trophy. I’m the leading scorer on my team. I’m about to receive a contract offer of about 70 million from someone.

There are 29 teams in this league who would be treating Subban like a star, and one team that has a clown for a coach.

Subban is building a huge résumé of success folks, he’s capable of going to the Hall of Fame with the pace he is now setting. He has the body to play 20 years in this league and the smarts to avoid the big hit.

If I’m Bergevin I would be looking to make a change.

Therrien is not a leader.

A leader waits until after the game and then has a one on one with his best player in the privacy of his office.

We should expect a winning record with this many Olympians. Therrien is a stop-gap until we get a real coach I’ve said it from day one. I never would’ve imagined his inconsistency in how he handles his players.

CH management has always felt that they needed to manage PK’s ego so that he can continue to fit into his helmet. I can understand that, Post-Olympics selection hoopla, MT wanted to remind PK that he still plays for the team and therefore has team obligations. What I can’t understand – or excuse — is the impossibly public method he chose to send that message.

Never a fan of the MT hiring. The 2008-2009 Pens were barely in playoff contention while he was turning the likes of Crosby and Gino into better hockey players and people.Blysma won the Cup with them three months later.Now supposedly he has “learned and changed” although not sure into what.Must have been PK’s fault that the team that can’t score went with 11 forwards and 7 D thereby confusing both groups.Also, someone he trusts should tell him that waiting for 5’10 guys to muscle 6’3 guys off of the puck on chip ins is a fool’s errand. Maybe on Saturday MT can bench himself.

Jets management would have to have been left outside in the cold too long to trade any one of those guys. I bet that’s the first thing Chevy is asked about every time he answers a call from another GM.

While trades are tougher today than ever before, seems to me there could suddenly be surge of trades. Quite a few teams out there are struggling, and have struggled for quite some time. GM’s know the cap is going up, up and up in the future. This could make for a little more freedom in making trades, as the Capologists from each team might loosen the purse strings on what they can make work.

Perhaps Edmonton is one of those teams ready to make the next big move.

With the Olympic freeze it squeezes thing for the trade deadline.
Remember when the Goat got the Wiz for a second around the end of December? Great move at a good time.
If we get a player of that caliber for a second round pick, it could be interesting.

We just cannot afford to have that player turn into a free agent at seasons end who we choose/allow to sign elsewhere. I’m fine with a trade of a draft pick for a good player, but not a rental. Been there, done that, got the t-Shirt, those moves while good for the moment, put us in the mess we are now.

I agree, but signed players cost more.
And the team could have retained Wiz, but chose not to, his salary demands being quite high.
It’s tough to watch this team, which has not had much improvement outside of goal tending in recent years.
It feels to me like a move needs to be made, and I think some players to fans would not want to move should maybe dangled to see what the return his.
It’s easy to say deal Bourque, Gio or even DD, but those guys won’t really get anything to improve the team.

I’d like to see what market there is for players as Gally or Eller, even though I love them both, you have to give to get, and those 2 while giving good service could be replaced, I think.

Agreed, especially with a team now allowed to retain up to 50% of the salary-Cap Hit of a traded player
Maybe just a little more time is required because there are not enough teams really out of playoff contention.
In the East only 3, and in the West it looks like 4.

Therrien is an awful communicator, and even when the team was doing well it was already a thing, it mattered less then, spirits were higher and it was easy to move on from it.

Now, even with the record still holding up, it’s clear the team is struggling alot more. Allowing more shots while firing less, which leads to scoring less goals, the PP is faltering and only looks reasonable because of the excellent start.

I mean that first PP was just horrendous, and with our back end and speed we should be able to gain the zone more easily.
I was greatly amused to see Frankie Bouillon be the one to finally be able to get the puck deep in the o-zone, even though that did not lead to much.

Our first PP wave is being effectively countered and our second wave can’t do anything good.
Coaching does not seem to have tried to adapt or change the strategies.

I disagree with the poster below and frankly these constant remarks about the team not being that talented and overachieving are tiresome.
A team that ices Subban, Plekancec, Price, Pacioretty every night, plus some good secondary players (Markov, Eller, Galchenyuk) has talent and always has a chance to win.
This team is definitely more talented than the Jacques Martin teams which went to the semis and almost upset the Bruins the next year (p.s. we are noticeably smaller than those teams either) THEY got by on fastidious defensive discipline and THEY were overachievers.
I don´t get it, even Nilan, even our local writers say they are overachieveing. What is it with this mass inferiority complex we have?
Can a team overachieve for a whole season and half of the next season? Can they really overachieve that long? No. They are a good team with a good team mentality and if they stay healthy will be one of the most competitive teams in the conference (sure they aren´t nearly as good on paper as the top teams in the West, but nobody in the East is)

I toally agree with your post. Overachieving is not the word I would use either, they struggle at times yes and some nights they play a team that is simply more skilled. The struggling and inconsistent play I feel comes from lack of preperation and leadership. Primarily leadership. I do not think either Gionta or MT are good leaders. I think the skill is their but the mental approach to the game needs a spark a push and a collective win attitude. Intensity is word I think is appriopiate. When a team does not add intensity to their practice you notice it right away the passes are not on and the team seems to be two strides away from making the right play. I see this in the Habs game alot. I also noticed they get alot of practices off or optional. I do not think this helps the team. They need to practice intensity in order to have intesity in game situations. This requires time and preperation along with the coach setting the righ expecations.

Effective comunication is the key to any teams success. This goes back to leadership. MT has proven atleast in English he is not an effective communicator. Gionta does not communicate and it is left to others in the room like Gorges. We need better leadership period.

Bourque has been just woefull…tries but arrghhh.
Gionta..a respected captian who is surely on the downside of his career.
Briere..experienced but has lost an edge for sure (playoff guy)
Cube..tough as nails but again downside of career and getting slower.
Murray..tough sob but damn he is almost always out of position.

While those players may make mistakes in the course of play, or flat out not perform, they aren’t taking bad, selfish penalties.

Briere’s poor play made him a healthy scratch. That’s worse than a 1/2 period of benching.

A better parallel to PKs punch and benching last night is Ryan White’s foolishness of last season.

I’m not keen on the way MT handled it. It’s not what I would have done, however, If I was in PKs position I would not have thrown the punch or taken that penalty, so MT would have had nothing to handle.

Same thing year in and year out. Just good enough to maybe make the playoffs but no chance for the Cup. It has been like this for 20 years .

This team needs an overhaul once and for all. I would reevaluate Timmons and our scouting staff. You top of the line personnel here. Also the GM’s moves to date have been a little perplexing. For example he could have had Jagr for one year but instead chose Brier for two. Jagr has size and is better than Breier.. Moves such as these are inconsistent with what the team needs.

If you want to makeover the team then you use your one major asset. You trade Subban for two top six scoring forwards with size. Unfortunately I am not convinced with our ability to judge talent.

There are issues, but, quite frankly, scouting and drafting is not at the top of the list. Timmons has been among the best in the business over the last 10 years. I can find plenty of fault elsewhere, but it doesn’t lie with Timmons.

Therrien is an idiot, always has been, picks and chooses which players he picks on and hides behind BS mantra’s like no excuses (which are only applied to Subban for the most part).

Has the habs record been better than there 15th place finish? Sure, doesn’t take much and this team has a very young core that’s going through there natural development as players. I don’t think Therrien is the reason for that, bring in another coach and Subban still wins the Norris and probably doesn’t get as much critiscism around the league for his coach not trusting him.

Emelin is a ket player to this team. Look at the team´s record with and without him. And look at the win streak which ocurred shortly after he came back and wasn´t play too bad.
In a season where, as opposed to last year, a few of the forwards are underachieveing, it is essential that the team be able to grind out low scoring wins on nights when the puck doesn´t go in the net. With smalish forwards, the team needs a tough physical defence to compensate. With Emelin being a liability right now, the defence, though it can help win games offensively with Subban and Markov, is defensively thin.
They need to get him going in a hurry otherwise get some help back there.

I think you’re correct rhino. Nobody is going to trade a power forward to Montreal, nobody. Big, tough and mobile defenseman are hard to come by but not impossible.

The only chance the Habs have to escape mediocrity is to nail things down in their own end. At least make one of the two zones a real tough place to play. Hammer people, get the puck on your stick and get it out. Give the small forwards on the team a few more chances to score.

After seeing MT throw in the towel last night i must say its time for MB to move on with a new bench boss.
I was not a fan of the hiring of MT to begin with, but have to admit that he has done some good things here. His record is above average, which makes it hard to dismiss him.
But the fact of the matter is that his record may be “smoke in mirrors” as he has a world class goalie that keeps them in almost evey game.
Benching his best player while down 2 goals in the third, and refusing to pull the goalie to try and comeback is just not smart. Every point in this league matters and he quitting on his team is reason enough for dismissal.
This team needs a players coach, not a hard ass. Boucher would be ideal for this team. He expects alot from his players but also works with them and is great with young players.
Like i said, it would be hard for MB to pull the trigger when his coach has a pretty good record, but this is about that time of the season where MT starts to lose the room. See last years record after 30 games. The players get the message MT is sending, and they are sick of it.

One rabies shot and perhaps he is cured though Steve! This is the problem with the “Fire MT Immediately” strategy. What would be a suitable and beneficial replacement. We certainly don’t want to go through an interim process again.

Completely disagree. He would have the players he didn´t have at Tampa Bay. It starts with Price but we could also have a decent D with Markov – Subban, Gorges – Diaz and Emelin – Pateryn. I know, I know. Gorges – Diaz would not be great and I wouldn´t want them together in the playoffs but still much better than the current one with Bouillon, Murray and Emelin on the right which is just a joke.

Boucher was forced into playing a trap system in Tbay. His defence was laughable as was his goaltending.
He coached a high tempo game in hamilton. Just shows he can adjust his style to the team he is coaching. Plus he wont alienate his best player.

I think if we look objectively at what our fears were when Bergevin hired MT, to me it´s obvious he has coached better than what the expectations were. I think he has done well especially with the young kids; Gallagher, Galchenyuk, and Eller. Think for one minute how we couldn´t develop almost any young players for so many years.
Up to now, with less than 40 games to go, if you gave me these results with the day of his signing, I would take them.
Having said that, I think the last 35 games and playoffs will dictate wether he gets a renewed contract. I think they have to finish close to 20 games over 500 and probably win a playoff round.
If they don´t, I think it was a good short-term signing, no harm done, and definitely better than the other candidates who were out there. If he doesn´t get renewed, I don´t think he will coach another team, but I don´t think he´s been a bad fit for the habs. He doesn´t come across nearly as well in English, where he seems more tense, we see the best of him when he is being interviewd in French, where he exudes more passion and also some humor, qualities the club has needed during this time.

As Hab fans, we need to accept the fact that this current roster cannot beat teams that are bigger and stronger than us. Until they get either bigger or more skilled (and by skilled I mean players that score 40 goals and 80-90 points) the Habs will be a team that gets into the playoffs with Price carrying the team on his back then losing in either the 1st or 2nd round PERIOD. And nothing I mean nothing will change until we as fans STOP BUYING TICKETS to see this mediocre team and lets not forget that the Habs have to LIMIT themselves to coaching and management talent due to the political bilingual mess that Montreal is in because of the media. So until those things change, expect more of the same year after year after year

I don’t think Therrian is a disaster, but I also don’t see how he is getting the most out of his players.

Our overall talent level isn’t very high, but who is playing above their heads? Who is improving rapidly? Who is blossoming? It’s like we have middle of the road talent, and they are playing like a middle of the road team.

PK appears to be successful in spite of the coaching instead of because of it. If he goes to the right team, he could be one of the most dominant players in the game today. Here, they want him to be just another guy, fit into a system that plays boring mediocre hockey, and give him an occasional back-handed compliment.

I quit watching after the team fell behind 2-0 and showed no signs of life so I missed all the drama of PK’s benching in the third period.
From what I read, Therrien was sending a message many disagree with, and I share their sentiment.
If Therrien really wanted to send a message to his dream, he should have put five rearguards out on the ice to spark the club, because, as they say, the best defence is a good offence.
Or, in the Canadiens’ case, an okay defence is a so-so offence.
(Which is still better than what the Canadien forwards were showing last night. )

The listless play was painful to watch. THAT has to be put on the coach. The last ten games or so, the Habs have started with neither passion nor interest.
MT’s winning record will protect him for the short term, but I don’t see him lasting beyond April and another playoff swoon. (The only thing preventing that drop in the standings is other teams playing even more poorly than the Habs, difficult as that is to fathom.)

If PK’s benching doesn’t end Therrien’s run in Montreal & soon then Bergevin is as big an idiot as MT. Sick & tired of seeing that ugly mug behind the bench. Enough already, fire his ass today because I guarantee you it will be downhill from here on. May be when Subban decides to take his talents elsewhere, Bergevin will wake up.

I mentioned a couple of months ago that I feared Subban may leave like Roy and the next message from someone was that it was the worst message read…I will reiterate my thoughts, if MT continues to be like Trembleay, we will lose Subban. Could you imagine after the Olympics, Subban heading to Mo-town? Twenty one years is a long time. I do not want to wait as long as the Black Hawks or get into a funk like the Leafs. Hab fans demand and deserve a better product including the coach!

You sure Saku was always loved “even” though he couldn’t speak French?

I understand the gist of your post however, perhaps the European coach angle bypasses the anglo who speaks no french stigma. Chances are a coach from Europe would speak about 3 languages and perhaps some French smattered in.

I don’t place a great deal of stock in what Gary Lawless writes or thinks, but I do think Winnipeg is ripe for the picking possibly in a trade. Cheveldayoff worked in Chicago at the same time as MB I am pretty sure. Dudley was the GM in Atlanta when that team moved to Wpg. There is some ties between Habs and Jets, I still wonder if perhaps there is a trade in the offing there.

The whole thing is very frustrating Burly. You heard Bergevin again in his comments on here yesterday or the day before say that big and talented forwards don’t grow on trees. He also said nobody will trade them either.