събота, юли 09, 2005

Otgovor do Srbina

stevanjak wrote:

> Blgar,> > Your ingnorance is amusing. Is that all what one can expect from Bayo> Ganje (aka what is yours is actually rightfully mine). Right?> You did not answer any of my questions

Not one.Have you learn Macedonian and Serbian Grammar?Have you learn about Macedonian customs and folklore?Have you learn Slavic Grammar?Have you learn for whom Macedonians vote for church?Have you learn for whom Macedonians vote on 1908 elections?Have you learn who is Gligor Sokolovich/Lamevich?in Macedonia?Did you read Carnegie Report?Do you know that ALL Macedonia Voevodas were Bulgarian from Macedonia (notfrom Serbia proper :-) ).Did you see how Macedonians met Bulgarian Army in 1941 (see onmacedonia.sarmadzhiev.com)?

Do you know why in Macedonia had virtually no Serbian schools and paritet ofBulgarian and Serbian one?//spare us the crap the Turks are guilty, did they alter the Macedonian dialect to be same as Bulgarian? :-)//

Do you know Ilinden uprisingDo you know VMRO?Do you know why Serbian need colonizers in Macedonia?Do you know King Alexander slapping of the girl from Kumanovo and why?Do you know why 90 years Serbian were not able to assimilate Macedonians?Do you know why Morava is called Bulgarian Morava?Do you know why Albanians called Macedonians Bulgars and did not have wordfor Macedonians?Do you know why 30 000 Bulgarians were killed in Goli Otok after 1944?Do you know why ~ 800 000 Macedonians from Vardar and Aegean Macedoniaimmigrate in Bulgaria?Do you know why today in Macedonia people understand Bulgarian and graduatefrom Bulgarian universities better then Serbian although all books andtextbooks in libraries and Macedonians universities are in Serbian?

and so on, so on ...

> You say: "What is the name of Morava?> May be Bulgarian Morava, no?> Why it was called Bulgarian Morava? "

> There is another Morava and another Moravska area in Europe. Can you> guess where?> Did you happen to know why in the same region (Checz) you have toponyms> (place names) like Srpske Katovice, Srbi, Srbsko etc.> Of course you dont know. If you knew you would keep quiet.> Morava is a pure slavic toponym and has nothing to do with you UYGURS.> Hahaha

So the Turks chase Serbians from Chez Moravia?Are you for real?

Or again you found your claims baseless so let avert :-) After all you said Kosovo (in Balkans I believe) and Morava (obviously youmeant Chez) The name of the river is Bulgarian Morava - plain and square.Take big glass of water and you may absorbate that inforamtion.

> Then another pearl: "From Kosovo, servian, from Kosovo - not from> Macedonia. "> > The Serbian migration under Patriarch Charnoyevich included population> from Vardar valley as well. The chief military commander of the Serbs> at that time was general Jovan Monastirlija.> Bother to guess where was we he from?

Sure,According to the above also in Greece and Albania and Bulgaria - Serbians was living. You won't doubt Leopold information, right? :-)

> You say: "My point is - Serbian "Voevodas" was not welcome and almost> all of them (5)> came from Serbia, and operate in Kosovo border region where Serbian and> > Serboman villages were located (now the only survive Serbians are in> Kumanovo)."> > Let me feel you knowledge gap one more time,> > The local cheta commanders were as follows; Spasa Garda Pavlovic> (Prilep), Jovan Stanojkovic Dovezenski (Dovezenci, Kumanovo), Mihailo> Josifovic (Makedonski Brod), Micko Krstic Pavlovski (Leunovo, Struski> Drimkol), Jovan Babunski (Martinci, Veles), Doksim Mihailovic> (Tetovo), Gligor Sokolovic (Nebregovo, Prilep).> Majority of them were locals. BORN AND RAISED IN POVARDARJE.

OK they were not 5 - they were 8. My bad :-).

> And for all those that came from Serbia proper, YES CUDOS TO THEM> becuse they came to help their serbian brothers and that's why they> live in our memory!

May be because no enough "Serbians" lived in Macedonia :-)

> Then follows another blunder of yours: "Maps and census in Macedonia> are official documents of the States that made> them. Those are State-sponsored, usually from the Great Powers."> > Finally we agree, like I said, maps and censa are the reflection of an> individual or group opinion and interests. THEY ARE NOT POSITIVE> PROOFS.

Sure.They all wrong. They found - Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlahs, Arnauts andSerbians (in Kosovo) but of course they are wrong because they did not suityou.

> > I can quote, for example, the following; Pat Gordon, english geographer> in his work (Geography anatomize'd, VIII edition, London 1719, p179)> states the following:> "In Servia chief towns are: Scopia, Gustandil, Viddin, Nissa, Jagdon,> Belgrade, Bracco, Prisren."> > Does this make him right? Think twice before you write....

Sure. May be from London it was true. See the Austrian reports about Karposh andStoil in 1700 and Nish defence. And also the immigrants from Vidin area, afther Chiprovo uprising 1688-90are still living in Banat (Hungary and Romania) and guess what - they areall Bulgarians :-)

> Next you say: "... and Greeks also were Rayah (because Osmans put whole> bunch of them in> Macedonian censuses) ... "> > That's where you show again, your ignorance of course.> > Greeks had considerable economic power and religious authority. Greeks> had Patriarchate of Constantinople. The foundation of Egzarchate was> with the intention of weakening the influence of Patriarchate. Egzarchy> was formed with the ferman of Ottoman Padishah in 1870.

Were they Rayah or not?Were they convenient to the Turks or not?Why Turks all them to have such power?Why not Bulgarize them as they did with "Serbians" :-)Do not ever forget HUGE junk of Serbians became Musilmans, and they efectively rule Bosna and Sandjak.

> As an american historian Ferdinand Schevill says in his book ("A> History Of the Balkans", New York, 1921, p386):> "Since the much buffetted padishah had no reason to love the ever> rebellious Greeks better then the hitherto submissive Bulgars, he> yielded after the usual wearisome procrastinations, and in 1870> published the firman which established an independent Bulgarian> church........The head of the Greek church did not even hesitate to> issue a declaration of war in the form of a solemn excommunication of> the new Bulgar church, called into being, it is curious to reflect, by> an act of grace of the Moslem calif. "

As you can imagine, Constantinopole Patriarh did not recognize at first Serbian Church as well.So Bulgarian Tyrnovo Patriarh did rykopolojil Serbian patriarh.Bulgarian Exarh was rykopolojen from Greek Patriarh of Antiohia,

Also just for the record, Bulgarian Ohrid Archiepiscopy was demolish also by fermanand Bulgarian Exarchiate is descendant on that Bulgarian church (unlawfully diminish)

> As you see everything is in the books, you just need to open and read.> Then you say: " As for Marko Kralevich - in Bulgaria he is known as> Krali Marko, and he is> heroe even in the Thrace and Northern Bulgaria.> This does not make us "Serbians" "> > Of course he is a hero in Thrace in N Bulgaria, the simple fact is,> Bulgars didnt have one so they had to borrow (steal) someone else's> heritage!

So can you tell me how Ventian Dodj call in corespondency Marko?I will help you, Bulgarian king :-).

> In an artifical "nation", created by the grace of russian emperor, of> course there are no heros but only beggars....

My nation is not called Servian ... And is quite older then any Serbian could dream his people are :-).you have not even got the state before Bulgars ruled you and appoint the Knjaz :-).Not to mention who baptize Serbia :-).

> Finally, one of your last pearls: " know a lot of Serbians, and all> they neglet Macedonians, look on them from> above. Srbjancite even call fellow "Serbians" from Pirot with you know> how. "

It is today's case. Go in Belgrade and see for yourself.Or you can read Borba, - search the archive for Pirot and Bulgarin.I as well post one article from that newspaper here.

> > Finally let's conclude, with you saying:> "Tell us about Ilinden,> Why ALL Voevodas were Bulgarian?> Why ALL Schools in Macedonia were Bulgarian or Greek? "> > That's what you say, but facts are stubborn and they speak different> story.> > Majority of the schools before 1870 were SERBIAN and, of course, all of> those were soon closed after the Egzarchy was introduced in 1870's.> > Wasn't Ljubomir Miletich, the founder of "Macedonian Scientific> Institute" a son of one of those teachers (from Novi Sad, Vojvodina).> The one that "discovered" his bulgarian ancestry in his later age???>

> Again, the more we continue this conversation the more pain you will> feel my friend. Wisen up and run before its too late...

You did not answer any of my questions

Not one.Have you learn Macedonian and Serbian Grammar?Have you learn about Macedonian customs and folklore?Have you learn Slavic Grammar?Have you learn for whom Macedonians vote for church?Have you learn for whom Macedonians vote on 1908 elections?Have you learn who is Gligor Sokolovich/Lamevich?in Macedonia?Did you read Carnegie Report?Do you know that ALL Macedonia Voevodas were Bulgarian from Macedonia (notfrom Serbia proper :-) ).Did you see how Macedonians met Bulgarian Army in 1941 (see onmacedonia.sarmadzhiev.com)?

Do you know why in Macedonia had virtually no Serbian schools and paritet ofBulgarian and Serbian one?//spare us the crap the Turks are guilty, did they alter the Macedonian dialect to be same as Bulgarian? :-)//

Do you know Ilinden uprisingDo you know VMRO?Do you know why Serbian need colonizers in Macedonia?Do you know King Alexander slapping of the girl from Kumanovo and why?Do you know why 90 years Serbian were not able to assimilate Macedonians?Do you know why Morava is called Bulgarian Morava?Do you know why Albanians called Macedonians Bulgars and did not have wordfor Macedonians?Do you know why 30 000 Bulgarians were killed in Goli Otok after 1944?Do you know why ~ 800 000 Macedonians from Vardar and Aegean Macedoniaimmigrate in Bulgaria?Do you know why today in Macedonia people understand Bulgarian and graduatefrom Bulgarian universities better then Serbian although all books andtextbooks in libraries and Macedonians universities are in Serbian?

четвъртък, юли 07, 2005

Bulgars and Slavs in Macedonia

Jivko, I made it clear even for you.If you are interesting in my name or history of my family, I posted it on the internet. If you are engineer you will be able to find it.

However I would not comment on the names of others with sirname like yours (or other Macedonians). If you like to be precise at least change back your sirname to original form (pre-1944).

I would really be suprise if you know more about Slavs then me (or even Taso). You lack common knowledge for 1878 uprising (as when, why and where it started). I am not expecting you to know much about "Slavs".Let me make it easy for you, Slavs (real ethnonym is Sloven) originated in Pripet swamps area. Go to the map and check where it is. Originally we have two major groups South-East and Northern. We are from South-East one, we very heavy Sarmatian influence. The Western Slavs (Chez and Moravs) are with heavy Celtian influence. They were even mistakenly call Venetian (even today wendi are in Germany) with name of that Celtic tribe.

In Vardar Macedonia almost no Slavs were settle. This is why there are no pagan Slav graveyards in Macedonia (but few in Bitolia).

Slavs were not mountain people, may be this is the answer, or may be because at the time huge junk of Bulgars were already populated Vardar Valley.

On contrary a lot of Slav graveyards could be found in Moesia and Thrace and also in Greece of course. All over the place.

Slavs were mostly around Solun and Struma river and even in Chalhidiki but not in Vardar Macedonia. On the north the Beresiti were in today's Graovo district (Maleshevsko - Sofia - Nish). On the east (Struma - lower) you have Dragoviti and "Strumliani". In the Chalhidiki - Rinhini. In Aegean Thrace - Smoljani and up nor Dragoviti again (in Upper Thrace). In Greece - Milengi and Ezerci.In Moesia "Seven Tribes". Also Severi but it is not prove if they were Slavs.

The conclusion is very simple -> The Slavs in Vardar Macedonia are settle AFTER bathism of Bulgarians, and obviously by Bulgarians. Those are not my conclusions but one made by YOUR archaeologists, I already provide you a link.Just to mention several Bulgar stans are discover in Macedonia, Prilep, Bitolia and etc (prior to 863). Also the treasure of Kuber is found in Albania. Also in Macedonia you have over all more Bulgar toponyms - like Prespa, Ohrid, Pelester, Devol, Tomor and etc.

So see first your Bulgar ancestry first.

Just for the record:Today's Bulgarians are mostly descentands of Thracian (Latin speaking mostly) population. This include Macedonians in Macedonia. This if you believe to the DNA tests (although it is questionable how the research are conducted). Never the less we are Bulgarians, as Otec Paisii define it. He is the "father" of Modern Bulgarian nation. This not stop us to be ancestors of Bulgars, Slavs, Latin-speaking Thracian, Greeks, Turks, Cumans, Pecheneg and 50 other ethnoses.

P.S. You should tell Russians they are artificial nation too, and French and Americans and English and ... the list is very long. None of them are actually who the original people with same ethnonym were.

неделя, юли 03, 2005

Future of Macedonia in my mind

Almost 15% of population were put in like Goli Otok and 22 000 died there. Several notable trials were held, a lot of the educated Macedonians were slatered, even communist leaders that were Bulgarian were expell at best. And as of today big chunk of population is still Bulgarian and re-Bulgarize. If Bulgaria become a member of EU, not very long after that, yo will not have a problem with Macedonia name (in terms of continuity with ancient Macedonian). At least this is what I get from the people that visit Macedonia recently and the Macedonia press I am reading (in that *foreign* language).

Do not listen to the Ilinden and other Macedonist here. They are out of touch, and mostly dreaming.

For example:A month ago the book for Todor Alexandrov were publish in Macedonia by Macedonian historian, with real documents inside, and believe me it is not pleasant for Macedonist.

The only country at the region that support Macedonist is Serbia, but they steadily loosing the power over Macedonia, Tito Yugoslavia is dead, and more and more people in Macedonia understand that. On contrary almost half of Macedonian population have visited Bulgaria (and not only Pirin region). This making them a great impression, after all their lives they listen Bulgarians=Tatars, they eating Macedonians for breakfast and nothing in common and etc, and they are coming and seeing essentially the same people from Sofia to Varna and this make them very very cautions and alert. Macedonians (esp. younger once) understand and speak better Bulgarian then Serbian even after 100 years of heavy Serbinization, and Macedonizations.

Almost 20% of all university students in Macedonia currently graduating in Bulgaria, after 5 years in Sofia you should be idiot to think we are different from each other.

And this is noticeable in Macedonia. Government trying to prevent students from studying in Bulgaria. Do not allow building of direct train-track Sofia - Skopje, do not allow building of new border-crossing stations... ... let see how all will end,

My bet is - Macedonia will stop rely on and will return to its Bulgarian roots, acknowledge the same origin of the people and the division in 1944. Then I believe you will not have a problem with name, since it will not be used in bad intention toward Greece.

четвъртък, юни 30, 2005

Bulgarian and Macedonian languages

In order to claim some language is different by other you should prove that.
I ask you, is this article written form guy who have Macedonian or Bulgarian as mother tongue?
Why this is important,
Bulgarian is quite old and complex language.
We have at least 3 stages of it in history.
It is also mix of Greek-Slavic-Bolgar language, so we have a lot of cases when we end up with two words that mean the same:
Otec - Tatko - Bahsta (Father)
Ticham - Bjagam (Run)
Ela - Idvaj (Come)
Govorja-Zborja-Hortuvam and etc. (Speak)
Kraka-Noze (Legs)
Kotka-Machka-Maca (Cat)
Pes-Kuche (Dog) and etc.
You got the point. In the official, standard books, textbooks and etc - only one or two of those are mention. Others are trimmed.
Also the language (Buglarian) was heavily Rusified after Liberation, and bunch of Greek and Turkish words cut out.
So If you are native speaker, you may see how close are the two dialects. Bulgarian-Macedonian. Also part of Macedonian dialects are actually closer to standard Buglarian then part of Bulgarian dialects.

Grammar,
Grammar is important because it is more consistant in time. Although a lot of Serbian words came in Macedonian (like Sloboda, Odluka and etc.)
and many Serbian name (Zoran, Lubica, Vesna and etc.)
the grammar has not been changed. So today Bulgarian and Macedonian had the same grammar, quite different from other Slavic languages I must say.

Vocabulary
Root Macedonian vocabulary is same as Buglarian and have some differences from other Slavic languages.
Extend vocabulary, less then some Serbian words (in tens) and the foreign terms is same as well.

Venticular
Same as western Bulgarian.
The typical bulgarian sound 'y' or 'ъ' is there. You cannot find it in any other language (Slavic). Macedonians does not have a symbol for it :-), they shred it in 1944 to make it disappear :-). Let say it is still there :-).
Macedonians claim to have two more sounds, actually those are bi-sounds
d-z and d - zh and all of Bulgaria used them but we mark them with two letters. May be it is correct to put one letter for them, I don't know.

Saying above,
I believe I made my case for the language.
It is same. You may ask any Macedonian or Bulgarian they will tell you that. Infamous Ilinden here put it that way:
"Bulgairan adopt Macedonian language and alphabet. "

And most of the linguists that are familiar with the matter will tell you the same as above. You may search this news group I post many many articles about it.
In fact Bulgarian and Macedonian became an example of how the language could be . Pretty much the same is the case with Moldovan and Romanian.

As for nationality:
There are no doubt, Macedonians as a separate people did not exist before 1930's,
although some regional feelings you can find, but very limited if any.
If you read Macedonian (or Bulgarian) you may read the article I post yesterday from Macedonian Ph.D. and see

Draje Tito and Draje Dimitrov change that.
is it stable is yet to be seen.

Best Regards,
Nikolay

P.S. We should use the most common deffinition of language and dialect.
If you use the famous one - language is dialect with army - then you found your Macedonian, otherwise it is same language (under the definition I gave you in the previous post, as much inperfect it is).

Proto Buglarian names

Proto Bulgarian names:

Asparih - Aspa + rih (title, rex, Arian), Aspa is Indo-european wordTervel (Trivel) - SarmatianKardam - SarmatianSevar - Latin, I/E - check the Sevar clan in RomeKomepej - never heard of him - you made it up. Kopmisosh - correct is Kormisosh - Sarmatian (most likely) his name came only throu Greek and the real name is not knownVineh - I/E - Vino - I believe ou understand the root of it. Telets - Slavic (Telets - see bible) Sabin - Latin - see SabineUmor - Slavic (you should know what is mean)Toktu - not very well known cheracter, brother of Bojan - only 40 days rule BGPagan - I/E name, you should know what it is mean.Ditsehg - never heard, Detse-neh - also I/E name Tsok - is Slavic (you should know the meaning)Omirtag - sorrect would be Umortag - Umor (see Umor) + tag titleTele-rih - see Tele and see Rih

You mist some other proto-BulgariansKot-rig, Bojan, Altsek and Kuber - all sons of Kurt, Kubrat or Kroat (and brothers of Aspa-rih). Gostun - cosin of Kubrat, ruler of Buglaria just before him. Organa - uncle of KubratPresian, Ervnota, Malamir - sons of Umor-tag (all slavic name)Vladimir, Rasate, Simeon (after the baptising) sons of BorisKrum - father of Umor-tag

Out of almost 50 names above - only 3 are remotely turkish (or at least used by turic people) Bojan, Boris and Toktu (brother of Bojan). Boris is also name of the mountain cat (bars) in Caucasus so most likely name is pure Bulgarian since we use it first and came from there.