Is there going to be a Love Ulster 2?

Willie Frazer was on Morning Ireland this morning with some interesting thoughts as he petitions the Garda for another, larger parade in Dublin this year: “Dublin is a multicultural society and everybody is welcome. Now is the time to prove it”. And later “At the end of the day the people down south are saying we must learn to live together and I believe we can live together with the people from the south. But people are going to have to respect our culture and our tradition. It’s not good enough to say that it’s okay to be a ‘prod’ so long as you don’t show it.”

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About Mick Fealty

Mick is founding editor of Slugger. He has written papers on the impacts of the Internet on politics and the wider media and is a regular guest and speaking events across Ireland, the UK and Europe. Twitter: @MickFealty

Fraser is out for trouble. Nothing more and nothing less… This has nothing to do with multi-culturalism or anything else. It is an opportunity for a blatantly sectarian grouping to stir up unnecessary conflict in what THEY would regard as being a hostile foreign country.

They should be told where to get off to be quite honest…

Cruimh

I agree Mac.

pÃ¡id

I hope that this time, it being summer time, and Celtic tops are in bottom drawers, that Love Ulster (well the part of it that was hived off) will walk in the sunshine without the slightest hindrance.

I Wonder

Frazer is in the same manipulative position as certain other loud mouthed extreme Unionists: blatantly bigoted and sectarian in their outlook, they prey on the tolerance of others to, basically, tolerate their intolerance.

Behaving provocatively is no more behaving like a Prod any more than it is behaving like a Taig. Unfortunately, there are those who will rise what is nothing more than taunting…

Billy

Paid

I agree. However, I would have liked the interviewer to ask Frazer if his marchers will once again include known UDA members and if they will again carry placards commemorating sectarian murderer Robert McConnell.

joeCanuck

Sort of takes you back to 1968/69 (in reverse).

Prince Eoghan

How so Joe?

I wonder.

Good post Jo, it simply is a case of forcing the tolerant to prove their tolerance by putting up with bigots with sashes. Sure after it’s all passed off peacefully most of the *ahem* reasonable Unionists will claim that the devious Taigs are trying to lull them into a false sense of security. It never ends!

jaffa

“Behaving provocatively is no more behaving like a Prod any more than it is behaving like a Taig”

Does anyone else think this is all a bit Peter Tatchell?

Maybe Love Ulster could change its name to Prod Pride.

I Wonder

Is “Peter Tatchell” an adjective? 🙂

PÃ³l

Very hard to know what to do. If you protest he will shout over you to say you are sectarian even though you may have legitimate claims.

Best idea is probably a line of people along the pavement of the march holding signs like “what about Robert McConnells victims?” and “were the reavey family victims?” etc.

Have to let him have his march though.

new dawg

Again Willie Frazer and his cohorts will stir up
the pot, when will they undersyand that their marching is like two fingers up to all the nationalist community. I ask would the KKK try
and walk through the Bronx in New York ?
When will the Orange Order realise that their so called culture is all one sided ?
Not impressed, but not surprised either tut tut
New Dawg in Belfast

If Willie had any sense then he would know that most people in Dublin couldn’t give a monkeys about his parade, and that he is welcome to show himself up in this manner every year.

Prince Eoghan

>>Thats some pretty skewed thinking there, what have Sashes got to do with it?
Your *ahem* proves your bigot credentials impeccably.<<
Ok Cromwell, It's indulge an eedjit day here so just how are my bigot credentials proved? Or is it like your evidence on other threads-it's all your say so?

Cromwell

Aye Prince, youre a belter.

I note you didnt answer my question.
The statement after the *ahem* kinda gives the game away!

Briso

I think Willie’s determined attempts to show that Dublin can tolerate the most extreme elements of loyalism are an excellent contribution to the campaign to remove partition. This march will eventually pass off peacefully (maybe not this year, which will nevertheless be better than last) and will help show that a united Ireland need not be a cold house for protestants.

Prince Eoghan

Cromwell

Every time there is an effort to change the way Nationalists and Unionists deal with each other, we always, repeat always have a significant amount of Unionists on here being suspicious of something or other. Them’s the facts! They are in the main (youself included I would argue) not reasonable, and certainly not interested in any meaningful dialogue that might lead to sustainable bridge-building.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, and you’re not a ‘down with all that’ type of guy :Â¬)

overhere

Has Wee Willie become the spokesperson for Unionist/loyalist/protestant/ulster-scots culture & tradition

I Wonder

WW got a few hundred votes in his own right in the last election. Paisley had hundreds of thousands. So, the answer is a resounding NO.

I Wonder

..lest we forget. This is how many people voted against power sharing and the current political deal. Wilie’s votes are in there – somewhere. 🙂

I’m an entirely reasonable person,(if a bit of a contrarian) just because I dont agree with you doesnt make it otherwise. I’m completely down with that!

Paul

Prince Eoghan

Every time there is an effort to change the way Nationalists and Unionists deal with each other, we always, repeat always have a significant amount of Unionists on here being suspicious of something or other

BogExile

‘When will the Orange Order realise that their so called culture is all one sided’

If you didn’t laugh, you’d cry. A one-sided culture – there’s a novelty! What next? A half-witted Republican apologist??

Willie Frazer articulates the extreme end of ‘victimhood’ – he therefore ought to have many admirers in Sinn Fein who have refined the art over decades.

Let him have his parade. Ignore him, let him have his walk in the sunshine and everybody wins. He did one thing undeniably well (if one confers some strategy to Love Ulster 1). He demolished the convenient fiction of an inclusive Ireland

The ’round hole’ mentality of GFA ignores the inconvenient number of ‘square pegs’ like Frazer who are left disenfranchaised by ‘peace.’ In many ways, he mirrors the spides who rioted against him – marginalised but still unfortunately relevant.

Online Shinners – a word of advice. If you want an inclusive Ireland, you need to understand, tolerate and even embrace this hate and this grief. It hasn’t gone away, you know.

Ian

I just hope that Raymond McCord Snr gathers a load of relatives of Protestant victims of loyalist killings, and goes down to Dublin for a counter-protest. If he does, RSF and IRSP should step back and let him get on with exposing FAIR’s hypocrisy.

I Wonder

“He demolished the convenient fiction of an inclusive Ireland.”

I’m sorry, but that’s bollocks. He’s a hair on a pimple on the arse of a long out-of-date Loyalism.

Certain unionists go out of their way to infer from the actions of a few unemployed lunatics and teenagers that the whole of the south is bigoted. Get your heads out of the sand, lads. I don’t like the Love Ulster crowd (what a stupid name!) but I’m not going to prevent them marching – there’s been enough bloody dissident republican demonstrations on O’Connell St, after all. Most people feel the same.

It might take time for a march like this to pass by without controversy, but that’s hardly surprising. If any unionist comes down here for any other reason other than to stoke up trouble I’m confident they’d find the majority of people reasonable, unbigoted and friendly to them.
Do Ulster rugby fans feel set upon when they come to support the Irish team (let’s not get into the whole anthem thing – that’s for the IRFU)?

Brian

Posted by BogExile on Jun 21, 2007 @ 02:57 PM
“Let him have his parade. Ignore him, let him have his walk in the sunshine and everybody wins. He did one thing undeniably well (if one confers some strategy to Love Ulster 1). He demolished the convenient fiction of an inclusive Ireland”

Well, sort of, but he’s going to keep going until, errrmmm, until his parade is tolerated and left alone, thereby proving, errrrmmmmm, that Ireland is tolerant and inclusive. Wierd. Why does he want to persist with this all-Ireland initiative? So he can eventually say, “At last I can march in our nation’s capital!”? Very strange and internally contradictory if you ask me. Can anyone explain?

Cromwell

Anonymous,

And your point is?
Robert McConnell was never convicted of anything.
The very fact you link to an Orange website of murdered members tells you all you need to know about the Provos dirty little sectarian war.
Were these people murdered simply because they were protestants?

Thats right Niall, they were just unemployed lunatics & teenagers, not republican unemployed lunatics & teenagers.

BogExile

‘Do Ulster rugby fans feel set upon when they come to support the Irish team’

No but obviously that’s because they are participating in an all-Ireland event which blurs our seperate identity as opposed to highlighting it like Love Ulster want to.

It’s an inconvenient fact but the lingering perception of Love Ulster 1 was a parade which was set upon and prevented by Republican extremists displaying the foulest, basest bigotry in the centre of new, modern Ireland.

The inclusive Ireland republicans purportedly want has no place for this brand of nakedly sectariam extremism. It brings shame on the same vast, bulk of decent, generous people who feel a fuzzy warmth when the prods go green for a game of Rugby (as I do).

Love Ulster with it’s raw, visceral, infantile, inarticulate rage is the vehicle of people who are excluded from our new orthodoxy. It represents the irreducible core of Unionist insecurity. You feed it with your ridicule.

SouthProb

“Itâ€™s not good enough to say that itâ€™s okay to be a â€˜prodâ€™ so long as you donâ€™t show it.”

Many of us ‘prods’ aren’t militant loyalists like that nutjob Frazer, some of us are infact fans of the republican form of governance! Id expect that the 2nd parade will be stopped, and the government will set Martin Mansergh on Frazer’s case to destroy any political capital he could try to make out of it.

young fella

I won’t be PC about this but Willie Frazer is a gobshite!!!!!
Is it Love Ulster or is it FAIR?Seems that he’d have a hard time with making either of these coherent since “Love Ulster” is actually “Love Loyalism”.Why would people in Dublin (“the foreign capital”) want to love loyalism when most people in Britain don’t.I mean, but thats only if it’s “love loyalism”,of course if its about loving Ulster culture then there will be workshops about Ulster poets and playwrites,Ulster-Scots,maybe some performances of music in a concert hall or something.

But then again maybe I’m wrong,it’s probably all about the loyalist victims,people who’ve been slaughtered by Dubliners down the years.I mean those Dubs need to remember all those people they killed up North.The provos of Dublin were after all, responsible for practically every loyalist murder in the North.It wasn’t like those loyalists were killed by their bloody republican neighbours in………guess where, Ulster.Mind,thats only when it wasn’t drug and pimp turf-war.

Though lets just say the murdered were being commemorated,what better way to commemorate them by than…….bringing murderers and placards of murderers to the place that they murderered.

Any man and his blind dog could pick a hundred holes in the supposed resaons for this parade until they were left with one simple unstated reason,”they wanna scrap,so they can scream intolerance”.

They are communicating Loyalist culture loud and clear;to be aggravating towards hosting communities by marching loudly,inconsiderately with a bunch of yobs, screaming about an identity which amounts to little more substance than “we’re not you”.Which is rich anyway because every pathetic gesture is a poor emulation of the actual civil rights struggle in the Catholic community in the late 60s early 70s,which as all UPRG reliably tell us was just exaggerated mopery.

young fella

Too be fair,I’ve seen FAIR is actually a “Prodestant” victims group not “Loyalists”.Apologies to all the unfortunate Prodestants that have been brutally murdered.
Most of my point still remains, Frazer, spoiling for a fight.

Robert McConnell was a State Sponsered Terrorist like Nairac and Robin Jackson. Frazer and his ilk (the Armagh OO as per my linked ref) donâ€™t see them as such although others do.

â€œRobert McConnell was never convicted of anything. â€œ

Because he was a STATE sponsered terrorist. He’d have to be arrested first & who was going to arrest himâ€¦ Harry Breen? who was also involved (see points 20, 21, 27, 28, 29 of the linkedâ€¦ http://www.seeingred.com/Copy/2.1_CODE_weiraff.html) or members of the British Army

â€œThe very fact you link to an Orange website of murdered members tells you all you need to know about the Provos dirty little sectarian war. â€œ

They were killed in the Troubles however any innocents will be looked at in less than favourable light if they are mourned in the same manner as a State Sponsered Terrorist like Robert McConnell. Many nationalists & republicans find it difficult to have sympathy for OO and UDR dead when there is no discinction between sectarian murders such as McConnell, Wesley Somerville & Harris Boyle.

â€œWere these people murdered simply because they were protestants?â€

I think I know why one of them was killedâ€¦. Robert Jackson was probably killed as he was a sectarian killer of innocent Catholics and someone who murdered with assistance from the British Govn (Brit Army / undercover element such as Nairac) to break the 1970â€™s ceasefires. Iâ€™d doubt he was killed because he was Protestant but because he was a sectarian murderer (who happened to be Protestant killing innocent Catholics based on their religion only).

Two others (the Stronges) were killed becauseâ€¦ â€œâ€¦When discussing the killing of the Stronges â€¦ a Tyrone republican and Gaelic Athletic Association veteran speaking to Ed Moloney said, “It’s a lesson you learn quickly on the football field…If you’re fouled, you hit back”.â€ Iâ€™d bet the Stronges were killed because they sybolized unionism and the old Stormont parliament rather than their religion.

I Wonder

He got 605 votes in his own home constituency – Newry & Armagh – and 73 votes in Foyle.
That’s the height of it, really.

lib2016

Who’d of thought it? Earlier this week I predicted that the Northern Prods would soon be running to Dublin as the only capital where they might actually have a voice and now Willy is blundering in as a sort of John the Baptist figure.

If that’s who unionists want to represent them how can a mere republican object? Onwards and upwards towards more Drumcree-type victories looks like the way the Orange masses are headed unless other more sensible types intervene, but then they’ve all been hounded out of politics long ago accused of the crime of ‘lundyism’.

Tough one, Bros!

Cromwell

Anon,

Any evidence whatsoever to back that up?

As far as the Stronges are concerned, so thats okay then is it? I suppose you could say that about virtually any murdered protestant, no condemnation, just excuses, excuses.

Its okay to murder themmuns because some prod somewhere might’ve possibly been in the UVF/UDA/RUC/UDR/ made the teas in the hall.

It was a dirty war in which both NI communities and the security services all disgraced themselves time and again.

Every republican I have discussed this with regrets the legacy of hate and the extent to which republicanism can be blamed for it’s part in causing that legacy, and regrets especially the undoubted sectarian campaign against Protestants on the Border.

If unionist outreach is so wrong what alternative do you suggest? Surely not the infantile posing of FAIR?

A quote from the Barron Comm. (that was the one which the British Govn didnâ€™t see fit to assist â€“ I wonder why?) â€œThe suspicion remains that the persons named by Wallace should have been identified as suspects in 1974. The suspects who emerge in late 1979, 1990-93 and 1999 are referred to by Wallace in documents from 1974 and 1975. The question which arises is, why were these names not circulated to the Garda or the Government as suspects in 1974? In particular, Wallace, in 1974 and 1975, refers to the Youngs, Jackson, Mulholland, of whom the Garda was aware, Hanna, Kerr and a Robert McConnell. While Wallace plays down the interpretation of what he calls an “excluded list”, a list that existed in the summer of 1974 ring-fencing certain names from military and intelligence observation, the fact is that those people on those lists are subsequently shown to be involved in various episodes and to have a notoriety. The Wallace letters explicitly refer to a connection between those people and a special duties team.â€http://www.dublinmonaghanbombings.org/oralsubdm27jan04page1.html

Stronges: Ed Maloneyâ€™s book as per my quote. Then thereâ€™s TPCâ€™s book The Green Book: I,

â€œAs far as the Stronges are concerned, so thats okay then is it?â€

re-read my post for what I wrote rather than what you wanted to read in my post. I didnâ€™t offer my opinion but posted the opinion of a Provo and labeled it thus.

â€œâ€¦just excuses, excuses. â€œ

I didnâ€™t give excuses I gave the reason why the Provos said they did what they didâ€¦ no opinion

â€œ 605 down there isnt bad when you consider the size of the community. â€œ

thatâ€™s what the Shinners used say when they had tiny vote percentagesâ€¦ Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

While the Shinners wrap the tricolour around themselves you seem to do the exact same w the union jackâ€¦ MOPE seems applicable.

Niall

“Thats right Niall, they were just unemployed lunatics & teenagers, not republican unemployed lunatics & teenagers.”

***I Predict a Riot!!
Loath as I am to quote a band like Kaiser Chiefs on these hallowed pages, itâ€™s the first thing that occurred to me on hearing that our friendly neighbourhood Loyalists from accross the border are planning on arranging another march through Dublin City Centre later this year.

After last years shenanigans, in which Oâ€™Connell Street was given a concrete makeover by a drunken hoard of Celtic fans and bigots who donâ€™t know why theyâ€™re bigotted, the question is – why?

What can this march possibly achieve? Itâ€™s sure to be seen as a kick in the balls to anyone who protested last time, itâ€™s going to make the government look (even more) stupid than they already do, seeing as last years events were poorly organised, poorly policed, poorly thought out, and pointless.

Last February, Michael McDowall (remember him?) decided on behalf of the people in the Republic that we were over all this hoo-haa about the 6 counties, and that a Loyalist march would go down a bomb (excuse the pun) were it to be held in Dublin. But he didnâ€™t account for Saturday drinking on the most republican street in Dublin. On the day of a Celtic match. Beside a building site.

Now Iâ€™ve nothing against Loyalists or their petty squabbles with the Nationalists up north. I know thereâ€™s a lot of history their, but itâ€™s not my history. Most people down here are the same. The last thing that we want is Dublin to become another Drumcree, where on the same weekend each year, petrol bombs fly and pitched battles between two sets of, lets face it, football supporters, take place.

Hereâ€™s my advice. Piss off back to your burnt out council flat up the north, and take the Celtic jerseys with you, where they belong. This is a real country. Weâ€™ve got flat screen tellys to buy and overpriced music festivals to go to.***

what Celtic game was on that day ?

None. The rioters simply wore the shirt as a means of distinguishing themselves… I guess that for the next Love Ulster riot they’ll wear GAA shirts or Rugby shirts.

Was Bertie out rioting… he’s a Celtic fan so by implication he and Dermot Desmond must have been throwing bricks at the Gardai, right ?

you’re writing generalizations there. If a rioter is wearing a Celtic shrit is doesn’t necessarily mean that Celtic fans are rioters like in your ramble above. It’s like me writing that all bloggers in Ireland are parrotts of the Irish Thames / Sindo and are incapable of independant thought.

“…our friendly neighbourhood Loyalists from accross the border …”

a partitionist, I see, contrary to the aspirations of the major parties of the Republic – not exactly a believer in majorities so.

“…but itâ€™s not my history. Most people down here are the same. ”

Oh but it is… don’t believe what the OpEd section of the Irish Thames says. Most people… since when were you voted as spokesman or what opinion poll are you quoting from ?

“flat screen tvs and burnt out council flats”

my aren’t you a believer in stereotypes… an education wasted !

Cahal

One for the Road:

I see your point. It really is embarrassing for ALL northerners when extreme loyalists take to the streets of Dublin looking for a fight.

Although quite a few Dubliners will be thinking

“pity the northern nationalists having to put up with this shit every summer”

quite a few will also be thinking

“we’re better off without the baggage of the north”.

I get the feeling this is the point of the exercise – to alienate southerners.

lib2016

Cahal,

They aren’t welcome in Britain, the Parades Commission is slowly squeezing their ability to make trouble in the North, and Scotland is clamping down on sectarian troublemakers. As I’ve pointed out earlier, the Northern loyalist has nowhere else to go but Dublin if he wants to express him/herself in the usual way.

Token Dissent

Frazier is a dangerous influence, who wears an exclusivist sense of victimhood as a badge. He is clearly ambivalent about causing trouble. However it is interesting that any mention of Orange creates such a bigoted responses from many contributors.

I like Joe’s point about this being 1968/69 in reverse. I wonder if Eamonn McCann, Michael Farrell and Bernie McAliskey think the parade should be banned? Is it always wrong to deliberately piss off a community with a parade, or is it just when unionists do it?

If only all marchers in Northern Irish history had accepted that with rights come responsibilities…

Token Dissent

“the Northern loyalist has nowhere else to go but Dublin if he wants to express him/herself in the usual way.”

So just to clarify lib2016, all loyalists (I am guessing you really mean unionists) are petty sectarian trouble-makers. Hey if only they would all just leave our beautiful tolerant island and let us build our Ireland of equals without them!

Indeed some said that Cork socialists were â€˜to blameâ€™ for the riot â€œâ€¦The Ireland edition of the Sunday Times in February, however, claimed to have received a leaflet allegedly issued and distributed by the union in the weeks preceding the rally calling for support for the counter demonstration.
The Sunday Times, nevertheless, decided to quote this bogus leaflet on the morning after the riot without bothering to verify the authenticity of the publication with any IWU official. Moreover, the newspaper’s Ireland editor Frank Fitzgibbon reinforced this erroneous assertion on RTE’s Questions and Answers programme the following day (26 February), when he repeated the allegation on national television.â€ http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/news/2006/dublin-riot/

Why bother with the facts when a few generalizations will do *But shure ya know how it isâ€¦ them fooking Rebelsâ€¦.Michael Collins and all dat*

Ath Cliath abu

lib2016

Token Dissent,

Erecting paper tigers so that you can destroy them is a pretty silly exercise which convinces noone. The loyalists made fools enough of themselves at Love Ulster 1 to have learned the need to do better.

There is a reason why their influence in the unionist community has waned, you know.

As for my own attitude? I would have thought that it was fairly obvious that I welcomed the emergent realisation by some loyalists that their future lies with Dublin rather than London.

Still think the fact that Willy is a leader of his community in spite of his many personal problems is a bit of a hoot, however. 😉

Aaron McDaid

The last parade obviously didn’t go very well. It’s important that this parade go peacefully for many reasons. The first is of course that we don’t want to see anyone get hurt.

It’s also vitally important that unionists realise that the troublemakers last year did not represent supporters of SF. Frazer was on the telly a few minutes ago on RTE and he tried to link the recent poor SF performance with the behaviour of the hooligans last year. I don’t know if he’s deliberately or accidentally confused on this issue, but either way more unionists needs to realise the SF percentage vote is roughly the same as last year and is not correlated with the hooliganism.

After last year’s trouble, it makes if a bit more difficult for Dubliners to credibly criticise some aspects of the Love Ulster march. If however, the march is very peaceful this year and the march is overtly glorifying sectarian murderers of civilians then it’ll make it very easy to force them to stay away next year.

Just as last year’s hooligans don’t represent republicanism, nor do these people represent unionism.

Token Dissent

Which paper tiger did you have in mind lib3016… sorry 2016?

How is Frazier a leader in his community? The unionist electorate has (unfortunately) chosen other fools to lead them!

I am not 100% sure that it was the ‘loyalists’ who made a fool of themselves in Love Ulster 1. I think that prize went to fools from another tribe.

Why are you calling Frazier a ‘loyalist’ and not a unionist? Your use of ideological terminology is very strange.

If by “personal problems” you mean the clear psychological scars left with Frazier after having his family butchered, well then you have a lovely sense of humour.

For the Yes there is / would be in common…
1. drunk stupid students and drunken stupid OO members
2. history of racially bigoted behaviour in the US southern states and history of racist bigoted behaviour of the OO
3. the colour orange

The vote for the No camp would be as follows…
1. too many â€œJohnny foreignerâ€ types (you know what I mean) in those photos you posted to be acceptable for the OO
2. The USA is a republic based on â€˜the one man, one voteâ€™, â€˜all men are created equalâ€™ and separation of church and state ideals (contrary to GWBushâ€™s aims) which might be an anathema to the OO types
3. positive discrimination was implemented in the USA to correct past errors â€“ not a very well supported ideal by unionists who canâ€™t even admit the deplorable situation in the Sick Cos during Stormont 1.

jaffa

Just give it 200 years anonymous!

I don’t think the orange is coincidental by the way – very definitely Williamite influence on Jefferson and Virginia.

Actually it’ll come faster. Mark my words. Within two decades all remaining Orange Halls will have become Ulster-Scots cultural centres holding regular ceilidh’s with the folk from the local GAC.

On Newstalk 106 today someone suggested that the people of Dublin put up a banner to welcome the Orangemen to their capital city. In response to this someone texted that this would only provoke Cork people to riot! (Unionists may or may not know that it is a cornerstone of Corkonian “wit” that their city is the “real capital”)

either that or the OO will become an embarassing unwanted, unwashed pariah in the mode of the KKK.

I believe the membership is way down because after Drumcree riots as they can’t give an appearence of decency. They’ve a huge problem with the media as their spokesmen are morons. The anti-OO brigade just need to point to the fire bombing of the 3 Quinn bros (similar to the KKK firebombings in the southern states of the US) as an example of the after-effects of OO-initiated turmoil.

re James Galway – its not the music nor the camp gear that they wear or the military marching that anyone complains about…. it’s because they are bigots and are the annual bonefire-hooligans w threats encouraged by unionists politicos appealing to the lowest form of sectarian tribalry. Then there’s the round robin picking of towns to stir things up every few years – “we haven’t gone away you know” they say after things settle over time.

I’ll admit that Ulster Scot does seem like the way to go for the Rossnowlagh type lodges but the KKK connections seems the way for the Blood & Thunder knuckle-draggers.

Diluted Orange

What exactly are they hoping to achieve with this march? How will this change anyone in Dublin’s perception of Unionists?

If they are so in love with Ulster then surely they wouldn’t care how Dubliners would react to them.

Slartibuckfast

Wilhelm himself admitted that he was cynically using the victims angle of the march as a smokescreen for his own anti-Agreement views. See this article from last year (I’ve highlighted the most interesting bit and cut some of it out because there were too many words in the post for it to be accepted – the Paisley bit at the end is amusing):

Dublin Braces for First North Irish Loyalist March Since 1936
Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) — Dubliners, spared street protests for decades while violence raged 100 miles away in Northern Ireland, are about to get a reminder that the conflict isn’t over.

Northern Irish loyalists, who have fought to keep the province under British rule for more than 80 years, are taking their demands, drums and flutes to Dublin streets in a Feb. 25 march, the first such parade in the Irish capital since 1936.

The protesters say the Irish government has too much influence over the North under a 1998 accord that helped start negotiations to end the conflict. The troubles, as they are known in Ireland, have claimed at least 3,500 lives since 1969. Nationalists and republicans want a united Ireland, while unionists and loyalists advocate continued alliance with Britain.

“They are saber-rattling, trying to provoke a reaction,” Colm O’Conaill, 33, who works as a university researcher in central Dublin, said in an interview while shopping in the city. “But we are mature enough to handle this one.”

More than 1,000 people are planning to go on the march, which is being organized by a group representing victims of republican terrorism, Families Acting For Innocent Relatives. The Armagh, Northern Ireland-based group said it agreed a route with the Dublin Police Department for the parade.

[b]“Broadly, we think there is too much interference in the affairs of the North by the Irish government,” said William Frazer, the march organizer, in a telephone interview from Armagh. “We are bringing that message down south.”[/b]

`Provocative’

British and Irish Prime Ministers Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern helped negotiate the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which brought Sinn Fein, the political party allied to the Irish Republican Army, into a power-sharing executive in Belfast. The administration was then suspended in 2002 over spying allegations.

Republican paramilitary groups including the Irish Republican Army are responsible for 2,055 deaths during the troubles, according to CAIN, a research group based at the University of Ulster, Derry. Loyalist paramilitaries are behind 1,020 deaths.

Republican Sinn Fein, a splinter group that still defends the use of armed force to win a united Ireland, plans a counter protest during the loyalist march.

“They are being deliberately provocative,” Des Dalton, vice-president of Republican Sinn Fein, which broke from Gerry Adams-led Sinn Fein in 1986, said in an interview. “It’s a loyalist march, and they would see it some kind of triumph for loyalism to be marching through the streets of Dublin.”

Police spokesman Jim Molloy said enough officers will be on duty to deal with any violence.

Orange Order

The sides in the conflict also tend to be divided along religious grounds. Loyalists are predominantly Protestant, while nationalists usually are Catholic.

The order opposes a united Ireland, excludes Catholics and pledges allegiance to the British crown. At least 300 of the expected Dublin marchers will be members, said organizer Frazer, who is himself a member.

During the last six years, the order has canceled proposed marches in Dublin and Cork because of safety concerns. Ireland, whose 4 million population is more than three times larger than Northern Ireland’s, is mainly a Catholic country.

The marchers won’t wear the full Orange regalia, typically an orange sash, white gloves, umbrella and bowler hat. Instead some will wear orange lilies to demonstrate their loyalties and sport the Union Jack and the Ulster Flag, also known as the Red Hand.

“We’re not trying to be provocative,” said Frazer. “We’ll give them a taste of our culture, but perhaps wearing the full colors would be too much in one go.”

`Traitor’

Some loyalists still oppose the Good Friday peace accord, which freed prisoners and created all-Ireland tourism, waterways and food safety agencies.

“Bertie Ahern, your writ does not run here in loyal Ulster,” Ian Paisley, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, the province’s biggest party, said on Feb. 4. “Any man that talks to Sinn Fein or the Dublin government about the internal affairs of Northern Ireland is a traitor.”

Paisley, who said at a party conference he “disliked” Irish President McAleese, said this week he wouldn’t apologize for his comments. McAleese last year in an interview compared Northern Ireland’s unionists to Nazis. She later apologized.

Token Dissent

anon – So essentially for Ireland to have a good future the Orange Order needs to disappear? You really don’t have a very good understanding of cultural diversity do you. Your condemnation of bigotry is hilariously hypocritical!

“The USA is a republic based on â€˜the one man, one voteâ€™, â€˜all men are created equalâ€™ and separation of church and state ideals (contrary to GWBushâ€™s aims) which might be an anathema to the OO types.”
– Mmm I wonder from what background many of the founding fathers came from?

To compare the Order with the KKK, and the level of discrimination in Northern Ireland with that of the American south is both surreally thick and extremely offensive to the black community in America.

This thread really has been ‘unionist engagement’ of the highest order.

Billy

Cromwell

“Robert McConnell was never convicted of anything.”

If you want to cling to that then go ahead but frankly it’s pathetic.

Several CONVICTED “loyalist” terrorists have named him as a member of the “loyalist” sectarian Glenanne murder gang who was involved in the murders of many innocent Catholics. He has also been named by British Army sources who served in mid Ulster at that time as a known “loyalist” terrorist.

However, whatever floats your boat.

I ask AGAIN!! – what about the comment (on Radio Ulster) from Frazer that the “loyalist” terrorists freed under the GFA should “never have been jailed in the first place”. Just to remind you – this included Johnny Adair + Michael Stone.

Doesn’t this strike you as an insult to the relatives of the innocent Catholics murdered by these terrorists? Do you also think that these terrorists should not have been jailed.

Does the fact that Frazer lost family to Republican terrorists give him the right to defend the action of “loyalist” terrorists (such as his friend Billy Wright)?

If so, does that equally give the relatives to Catholic victims of “loyalist” terrorism the right to defend the activities of Republican terrorists? Oddly enough, I don’t think you find that so acceptable as you seem to find Frazer’s position.

What is your opinion on the PSNI refusing Frazer a gun permit because of his clear connections with known loyalist terror groups? When Frazer challenged this in the High Court, the Judge said that the PSNI had provided clear and irrefutable evidence in support of their decision.

What do you think of the “Love Ulster” parade in memory of “innocent victims” having a number of high profile UDA members in attendance?

At no point, have I derided Frazer’s loss – I sympathize and unreservedly condemn what he suffered. However, this does not give him the right to go unchallenged about his hypocritical one-side condemnation of Republican terrorism.

I am not and have never been a Sinn Fein member, voter or supporter. I sympathise with all innocent victims and their relatives. I believe constructive dialogue is the only way forward.

I would describe the vast majority of my Catholic friends and relatives as being mild and moderate people.

However, I don’t know a single one who, while sympathizing for Frazer’s loss, doesn’t see him as a hypocrite and apologist for “loyalist” terrorism.

So far, you have accused me of being bitter and made a tenuous defence of Robert McConnell.

I have no problem if you can refute any of the FACTS about Frazer that I have mentioned or if you can sensibly tell me why any Catholic should
give him any credence given his statements and actions detailed above.

frnak

‘To compare the Order with the KKK, and the level of discrimination in Northern Ireland with that of the American south is both surreally thick and extremely offensive to the black community in America. ‘

Members of the orange order have probably killed more Catholics than The KKK killed members of the black community in the southern states in the last 40 years.

Take orangeman/apprentice boy/band member Joe Bratty for example, the uff commander killed around 20, then you have the Shankill butcher brethern another score. Brian Robinson, John Bingham,wesley sommerville, McConnell etc..

â€œ So essentially for Ireland to have a good future the Orange Order needs to disappear? â€œ

I didnâ€™t say thatâ€¦ I agreed w Jaffa that a lot would go the way of Sctoch Irish museums / interp centres while the Blood & Thunder crowd would just become a form of the KKK

â€œ Mmm I wonder from what background many of the founding fathers came from? â€œ

DDdduuhh, the idealism of Presbyterianism implemented correctly over time.

â€œâ€¦is both surreally thick and extremely offensive to the black community in America. â€œ

Iâ€™d accept this if you were an American black person but itâ€™s laughable in comparison when held against the following words â€œ Perhaps no class has carried prejudice against colour to a point more dangerous than have the Irish and yet no people have been more relentlessly oppressed on account of race and religionâ€ – Frederick Douglas 1818- â€˜95

Token Dissent

“Iâ€™d accept this if you were an American black person but itâ€™s laughable in comparison when held against the following words â€œ Perhaps no class has carried prejudice against colour to a point more dangerous than have the Irish and yet no people have been more relentlessly oppressed on account of race and religionâ€ – Frederick Douglas 1818- â€˜95”

That is THE textbook example of MOPE-ery! The slaves and Jews didn’t know how lucky they were not to be Irish! I bow to your superb comedy stylings.

This debate has been beyond facile.

Southern Observer

I think the parade and *peaceful* counterdemonstrations should be allowed go ahead (Voltaire and all that).The thing that particulary nauseated me about the fracas last year was the propaganda capital made of it by Ruth Dudley Edwards and her ilk.

BTW Wee Willies people were B-men; up for it. Prods had to take shit from them as well.

overhere

Has he invited people from Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan to attend as it is a lurv Ulater event?

Maybe the people of Dublin should stock up on the Ulster flag, you know the Red Cross and hand and yellow background.

Realist

Pity the Tricolour of the Irish Republic.

The white stripe remains redundant.

Prince Eoghan

Silly realist, pointing out the inherent bigotry of some Unionists does not mean that the rest have not been proffered the hand of peace if not friendship.

>>This thread really has been â€˜unionist engagementâ€™ of the highest order.
Posted by Token Dissent on Jun 21, 2007 @ 10:27 PM<<
You keep on mentioning Unionist engagement, however it is obvious by your comments on this thread that you are not willing to be engaged. Why criticise the game (unfairly) when you show petulant reluctance to take part?
This thread is as clear a case of facts versus pedantry that you will find! I acknowledge that quite a few Unionist posters have been on to condemn this nonsensical idea of FAIR, fair do's!

I Wonder

“Broadly, we think there is too much interference in the affairs of the North by the Irish government,â€™â€™ said William Frazer, the march organizer, in a telephone interview from Armagh. “We are bringing that message down south.”

What the F*CK has this got to do with victims?

Mayoman

Did anyone ever believe it was about victims?

manichaeism

So when Dublin is not involved it is somehow responsible for all the Protestant deaths but when it tries to do something to bring about a peaceful solution it is interfering too much.

Talk about being in a no win situation.

Token Dissent

Prince Eoghan – if you had bothered to read my posts properly you might have seen my criticisms of Frazier. But hey, why let the facts get in the way?

If you think that it is “pedantry” to point out that many posters on here basically want the Orange Order (of which I myself am not a supporter) wiped from the cultural map of Ireland, then I plead guilty as charged. Tolerance really is in the eye of the beholder.

It appears that many are trying to have it both ways, bracketing wee Frazier as a lone ‘loon’, but at the same time saying that he ‘represents’ unionism. Make your mind up.

Realist, sums it up perfectly. Grown up reconciliation between the two traditions is sorely lacking from both sides.

Prince Eoghan

>>Realist, sums it up perfectly. Grown up reconciliation between the two traditions is sorely lacking from both sides.<<
Bullshit! This site see's day and daily one sides contributors (of all variations and none) attempt to extend the hand of peace, whilst yourself and others bitch at legitimate and factual criticism, and most notably fail to address anything of substance mentioned. What have you contributed on this thread apart from nonsensical whataboutery and petulant reluctance to join in with any form of reconciliation, you deny the obvious. In your defence you are not alone.
There are gey few Unionist posters here who take things on face value without launching into conspiracy theories. I'm bored with the one way traffic, there seems to almost be an acceptance on here that one side has to do all the chasing whilst the other seeks not to get tagged. There are exceptions, Unionists who will engage in meaningful debate and who don't merely apologise for, or dismiss Unionist sectarianism.
I would be sad to think that the OO in it's current form are representative of the Unionist people. I do not think for a second that Fraser is, perhaps his form of hypocrisy and unconcealed intolerance is the identifying factor.

lib2016

Token Dissent,

Most modern republicans would repudiate the ideas of the Defenders just as much as they repudiate the Orange Order and it’s malign influence, or the republican dissidents of today.

If unionists, yourself included, truly feel that the likes of Willie don’t represent them why don’t they (and you) say so a bit more often?

The realities are that the North was governed by people with the ideals of the Willies of this world and that his ous relatives and their associates were state employees.

The Miami Showband were ed by members of the British Army in uniform, not by ‘lone loons’. Willie is an unashamed apologist for those and yet your post implies that moderate republicans are at fault for pointing that out.

Toke â€œmany posters on here basically want the Orange Order (of which I myself am not a supporter) wiped from the cultural map of Ireland, …. â€œ

Who did and when ?

I read Jaffaâ€™s post and re read my ownâ€¦ the opinions offered were that the OO was going two waysâ€¦ Scoth Irish interp centres and Blood & Thunder KKK lodges. So theyâ€™ll still be there in the mode of â€œthey havenâ€™t gone away, ya knowâ€.

I think you are reading what you want to believe in postings that you donâ€™t like. Try stick to the facts in black & white print.

If a nationalist believes that the OO, as a violent sectarian terror group in the mode of the KKK, is a primary source of the problems in NI, then why shouldn’t the hypothetical nationalist wish for the OO to disappear from society?

Slartibuckfast

“What the F*CK has this got to do with victims?”

Exactly nothing. Yet the dull will just ignore it or pretend he meant something else.

Token Dissent

This is tiresome, but for one final time here goes…

I am not in support of Frazer’s march, but I uphold his right to hold it, and deplore the riots that happened after the first one. Frazerâ€™s political vision is almost entirely negative and unrepresentative of the views of the community he claims to represent. Sorry if you find the “dull”, but hey I can’t hide my personality!

On the different point about the Orange Order. I myself am opposed to the Order – any reading of history will tell you that its overall contribution has been negative, and as has been stated its response to some of its members committing terror has been nothing short of a disgrace. I do not however dismiss the entire membership of the Order as bigots, or people with no role to play in society. Many here are trying to classify the Orderâ€™s remaining membership as being made up of solely â€œBlood and Thunder â€ bigots – this is nonsense. In many communities Orangemen play valuable roles. Most still are socially conservative decent people who have great relations with neighbours from all faiths and none. For superbly researched, critical accounts of the Order read the new work of Eric Kaufman and Henry Patterson. They highlight for example the brave role of many in the Order in opposing loyalist terror

Maybe these books could give certain contributors a more balanced view. Essentially you guys have been saying – I donâ€™t have a problem with these Prods as long as they stop being those kinda Prods. That is the same old trick as Unionists used to play when they said – I am not discriminatory against Catholics per se, just the kind of Catholics who actually live here.

To claim that â€œmoderate republicanâ€ opinion on this thread has aimed to further reconciliation is frankly insane. Are phrases such as, â€œa violent sectarian terror group in the mode of the KKKâ€, build on a nuanced understanding of the social and political history of the Order, and a wish to reach reconciliation?

Anon –
â€œToke â€˜many posters on here basically want the Orange Order (of which I myself am not a supporter) wiped from the cultural map of Ireland, …. â€™
Who did and when ?â€
Within the very same post you say that the â€œhypothetical nationalistâ€, has every right to â€œwish for the OO to disappear from societyâ€. At least make some effort to hide your inconsistencies! We also have had: â€œthe Northern loyalist has nowhere else to go but Dublin if he wants to express him/herself in the usual way.â€ And: â€œWhen will the Orange Order realise that their so called culture is all one sided ?â€. And â€œbigots with sashesâ€. And â€œmany nationalists & republicans find it difficult to have sympathy for OO and UDR deadâ€.

Lib2016 –
â€œIf unionists, yourself included, truly feel that the likes of Willie donâ€™t represent them why donâ€™t they (and you) say so a bit more often.â€ I donâ€™t claim to represent anybody other than myself and my national identity is of only secondary importance to me. But, in my no-doubt half-arsed way, I have always sought to support secular tolerant values.

â€œThe realities are that the North was governed by people with the ideals of the Willies of this world.â€ Yep I too am depressed by that state of affairs. But the people have spokenâ€¦the bastardsâ€¦and the assorted outdated tribal leaders (who are two sides of the same coin) are what they want.

I Wonder

“Essentially you guys have been saying – I donâ€™t have a problem with these Prods as long as they stop being those kinda Prods.”

Again, bollocks.

I and many others have a problem with bigotry bitterness and sectarianism and hypocrisy and will tackle it wherever and whever it appears.

Willie Frazer/FAIR demonstrate all of these qualities, are unrepresentative of victims as well as having negligible political support from thw wider Prod community. He would have gained some respect had he stuck to his famous hunger strike a few years back. He ended it in time for his tea.

Slartibuckfast

“He would have gained some respect had he stuck to his famous hunger strike a few years back. He ended it in time for his tea.”

That was hilarious. He said his ma came up with a fry for him and he couldn’t refuse it because she’d went to all that trouble.

lib2016

‘Many still are socially conservative decent people…..’

It’s called the banality of evil. I’m sure that many do love their families and mean well. Doesn’t change the facts – the OO is a gang of bigots who showed their true face for the cameras on the hill at Drumcree, just as they show it regularly off camera when they go out of their way to terrify isolated congregations of people at their places of worship or in their homes.

Banging big drums and singing the ‘Billy Boys’ at frightened pensioners and small children are not the acts of ‘decent’ people. Not to mention backing the acts of sectarian terrorists time and again.

I welcome the overdue signs that some members of the Loyal Orders realise that they need to change if they are to survive. Until they do succeed in changing those Orders the public’s judgement of them will not change.

Toke, You can cut and paste to your hearts content to incorrectly support your false perceptions, such as â€¦

*And â€œmany nationalists & republicans find it difficult to have sympathy for OO and UDR deadâ€.*

but what I wrote was â€¦ *Many nationalists & republicans find it difficult to have sympathy for OO and UDR dead when there is no discinction between sectarian murders such as McConnell, Wesley Somerville & Harris Boyle.*

which is a LOT, LOT different from what you wrote / misquote me as posting.

I wrote that â€¦ many have any issue w sectarian murderers (eg McConnell) being commemorated with innocents you read this as me having an issue with commemorations of OO members who were killed. You are reading what you want to read and not whatâ€™s in black and white type.

Out of context, misquoting, error of omission, take your pick as they amount to the same thing â€“ lies.

* Who did and when ?â€
Within the very same post you say that the â€œhypothetical nationalistâ€, has every right to â€œwish for the OO to disappear from societyâ€. At least make some effort to hide your inconsistencies! *

Lets start at the beginningâ€¦. Who did and when, who said â€œmany posters on here basically want the Orange Order (of which I myself am not a supporter) wiped from the cultural map of Ireland, …. â€œ

No one did. Jaffa and I said the OO might go the Ulster Scots route and I said that some would go the KKK route.

You brought up the fact that some posters might want the OO to be wiped out (not a phrase Iâ€™d use as it implies genocide but hey, you Toke, can type pretty much what you like â€“ free country and all that). I merely presumed that some nationalists might think if the OO changed from itâ€™s present form it might be no bad thing.

I think you have painted yourself into a corner, got all het up about something of your own making. Are you Wullie Frazer?

Hickenlooper

Why not the quidproquo solution? Willie gets to march on O’Connell Street after proving his own “tolerance” credentials by publicly demanding a simultaneous march by republicans/nationalists along Belfast’s Royal Avenue. This can then become the template for matching Garvaghy Road/Shankill road parades. And before we know it the Clonard Novena will be held at the Martyrs Memorial.
BUT ONLY AFTER WILLY’s PROVEN HE’s NOT JUST A LOW-LIFE PROVOCATEUR.