“Some $54bn of the lucre Apple’s reaped from its iPods, iPhones and iPads is outside the US,” Richard Blackden reports for The Telegraph.

“Apple’s pile is a mere fraction of the $1 trillion to $1.5 trillion of profits that JPMorgan Chase estimates US companies have locked away overseas,” Blackden reports. “As the US recovery stumbles, this wall of cash is becoming an increasing source of agitation to some in Congress. And it revolves around the hottest political and economic subject in America at the moment: tax reform.”

“Senator John McCain last month became the latest, and certainly highest-profile politician, to push for a plan to get the money back. He wants the tax that companies pay when they repatriate their cash to be cut to 8.75% [from 35%] for one year – a tax holiday that supporters insist will unleash a wave of money that will roll into America and create jobs,” Blackden reports. “Dave Camp, the Republican chairman of the influential House Ways and Means Committee, is also pushing a similar plan.”

Blackden reports, “There’s no mystery why its appeal sharpens as weeks go by. The economy mustered growth of just 0.6pc last quarter and there’s little immediate reason for optimism in 2012. Any stimulus based on government spending will be stamped DOA – Dead on Arrival – a nasty little acronym much used in the US. That’s before politicians begin tackling the more than $14 trillion of national debt, creating another headwind for the economy. Those companies with the biggest foreign cash piles have sensed that momentum is shifting and are lobbying vigorously. ‘We’re better off with these dollars inside the country,’ says Dean Garfield, chief executive of the Information Technology Industry Council, a group whose members include Microsoft, Google and Apple.”

I didn’t read the whole article, I see he wants them to bring it home at the lower rate.
I quickly skimmed through it thinking it was the typical money grab by congress to money that’s not theirs, but they want to tax and spend it..
Which is the main reason companies keep it overseas to begin with.

Why haven’t Apple been paying taxes on those billions anyway? Surely they’ve been declared on their profit statements.

Or is this yet another ridiculous tax loophole in the US that Apple are just taking advantage of? Surely if the US government mandated that all profits declared by US companies have to be taxed as if they were in the US they could dramatically cut the corporation tax for all businesses across the country? Think of the effect that would have on the US economy.

Ah good. The knee-jerk “commie” response. Looks like I’m thinking along the right track 😉

Digital Mercenary

Thursday, November 3, 2011 - 6:09 pm ·

Nope. Completely off track. Money earned overseas is taxed by the countries it is earned in. Bringing it back here means that Apple has to pay taxes on it twice.

Dave H

Friday, November 4, 2011 - 8:16 am ·

Well I fail to see how suggesting ways to mitigate such a ridiculous system can be described as “commie” especially when the result of said suggestion benefits small and medium sized US businesses and their owners.

Unless of course the commentator is completely ignorant of what “commie” actually refers to 😉

Apple and all the other companies made this money in other countries and already paid taxes on that money in those countries. For instance, do you really think it makes sense that Apple Japan should have to pay taxes to Japan for money they earned in Japan and then pay the US for that same money they earned in Japan if that money stays in Japan? To me that sounds ridiculous. If they money never comes back to the US then the US should not get any of it.

Actually, no taxes have been paid on the overseas profits – that’s why they are overseas; they pay no taxes until the money comes home. Ask Google, they were just busted by the IRS for booking domestic profits to overseas operations to avoid taxes. The money needs to taxed at normal income rates with credit given for taxes paid. Just like every other “citizen”.

According to a recent report that tries to expose companies that don’t pay taxes, Apple pays 31.3% on its US income, over the last 3 years, or about $4.4 BILLION.

The question is why you presume Apple is not paying taxes?

Now, Apple PAYS taxes on income earned overseas, already. It pays what those foreign countries require. The question is why the US, requires US companies to pay again, as if those products were sold in the US, when those products were not? Most other developed countries do not tax income a 2nd time if the relevant taxes have been paid in the country of sale. It’d be like California applying sales tax to a product sold in Maine, just because the company was based in California, even though sales tax had already been paid in Maine.

If YOU work overseas, or have investment income overseas, the IRS WILL make you pay US taxes on it. If you don’t, and they find out, then you will face the same penalties you would as if you earned it here.

If corporations don’t have to pay it, then they should be happy. But I see no reason why they shouldn’t pay the 35% tax if they want to bring it back.

Our jobs issue is NOT how much money companies have in the US – many US companies have posted record profits in the last two years – THE ISSUE IS A LACK OF DEMAND.

It doesn’t matter how much of this hoard they bring back, it won’t create a single job, period!

KenC

Thursday, November 3, 2011 - 1:42 pm ·

Yes, but the US is the only major developed country that does this.

And, this creates an incentive for US corps with foreign profits to reinvest those profits overseas, rather than bring them back to get taxed further.

misterME

Thursday, November 3, 2011 - 2:38 pm ·

No, actually you do not pay taxes on money you earn working overseas unless you make more than $96,000. You earn that first $96,000 free of US taxes, and only pay tax on what you earn above that. Get your facts straight before you spout off…

MisterME is correct.
I lived and worked overseas for 26 years and was funded by an American organization with US dollars. I paid INCOME taxes there but Social Security was paid for the US. Under $96,000 was not taxed in the US.

One thing NOT mentioned so far, maybe below is that in some countries, they charge from minimal to 80% to repatriate that in-country profit back to the US. Each country is different and exceptions are made in most cases.

They don’t technically “pay again.” What the story fails to mention is companies get a 100% credit of any taxes they paid to a foreign government on the money they repatriate. So if they made $100 and paid yourgovernmenthere $20. Then they pay the US the balance of $15 for a _combined_ tax rate of 35%

KenC

Thursday, November 3, 2011 - 1:46 pm ·

Correct, they’re not paying more than 35% in aggregate. However, the notion is one of tax sovereignty. If your subsidiary does business in a country, respecting all of its tax laws, then why should it be penalized for bringing those funds back? Those funds weren’t earned here. The additional US repatriation taxes paid do not result in any additional benefits received. The net result is that companies keep that cash where it was earned.

Dave, grow a brain. Please. Think about it: if you had a choice of bending over, grabbing your ankles and being taxed at a rate of 35% on every penny you save, or having the chance to park it offshore without taxes, what would you do?

On second thought, you might like the pain.

It’s our government’s fault for creating the disincentive for companies like Apple to park money offshore. Thanks to our geniuses in the House and Senate, you have this situation. Of course, to those camping out and banging the drum all day, any business large or small that makes even a penny of profit is evil. The State should take all money from businesses, make them beholden to unions and the Socialist State and have all business owners submit for daily flogging and be volunteer to be sent to Socialist people’s re-education and labor camps.

But then, these trust-fund children demanding all this can always book a limo back to the Hamptons when it gets too cold or boring to raise hell in a park in the south end of Manhattan, and never mind that they’re suckling on the teats of a father who is probably a Wall Street Hedge Fund partner anyway.

Actually, you don’t know what Apple “wants”, nor does anyone know whether Apple has been “lobbying for it”. Of all the large companies with large amounts of profits overseas, Apple spends the least on “lobbying”. Now, it stands to reason that any company, including Apple, would not like to be taxed again on its profits earned overseas. If you sell a product in a foreign country and pay taxes in that foreign country, why should you have to pay more taxes in the US?

Apparently Apple has been pushing the government to allow them to repatriate the money. I can assume that Apple “wants” this based on the fact they asked for it or do you think Apple doesn’t actually want this and is just asking to be a pest? Maybe it’s a big joke and Apple just wants to see if the government will say yes. Then Apple will scamper off giggling.

Yes, but if you read that story carefully, there was no actual evidence of Apple doing anything. Apple is part of a group that is pushing for tax reform. Apple spends very little on lobbying, much less than virtually every other company, and yet this article makes Apple seem like a ringleader. They don’t know diddly. I wrote the editor, and they altered the headline over the video that accompanies the article to make it less inflammatory. There’s no doubt that any company would like to see lower taxes, but the notion that Apple is the ringleader is just hearsay.

I am all for companies bringing the $$$ home but:
1. Was the money shoveled offshore to avoid taxes in the first place?
2. Was the profit already taxed by foreign governments?
3. Is this really a problem with ridiculous tax loopholes or absurd tax rates in the U.S or idiotic, convoluted U.S. tax code?

I have pretty good faith that Apple will do very smart stuff with its money, but I afraid other companies will waste it on undeserved bonuses, stupid acquisitions and unnecessary corporate jets, wasting their stockholders investments.

If there is a way to make sure that companies invest in new jobs, this idea would be fantastic, but I don’t see how the government can do that without wasting even more money.

Answers:
1) Yes, by some companies, like Google, who moved their search algorithm IP offshore for tax reasons.
2) Yes, the income was already taxed by foreign governments.
3) No, nothing to do with tax loopholes or absurd rates, it’s just a question of sovereignty. Very few countries tax a company’s profits a 2nd time if they have already paid the relevant taxes in the original country of sale. As I noted in another post, it’s like California applying sales tax to a product sold in Maine, even though Maine sales tax was paid, just because the company is based in California.

As for wasting the money, it won’t be wasted on “bonuses”, as this is declared income. Bonuses have already been subtracted.

I have proposed that for every 1000 jobs created in the US, over the last 5 years, the company can bring back $1B tax-free. For a company like Apple that has probably created over 30,000 US jobs in the last 5 years, that would mean being able to bring about half of that cash back.

It has everything to do with tax loopholes. Almost all large companies in the early 90’s (remember when the budget balanced under Clinton?) moved all of their Intellectual Property (IP) to offshore to tax havens and low tax rate countries. To do that, companies had to fair value the IP, and paid a one time tax on that value (hence the budget balanced for a few years). Since then, those same companies have been charging royalties (off shore income) to use the IP, (now owned by tax haven off shore companies) against the US operations (tax deduction). This is a significant portion of the proceeds these companies want to now return without tax!

If you do an EGG graph with LATTE curves adjusted for PBAJ, showing overall cash based on repatriation and tax fluctuation over time, Apple saved a cool 20 billion by waiting for a tax holiday that will likely come.

@ FTB : perhaps you are unaware of the legal concepts at play here. Let me refresh you:

In the USA, the people are sovereign. The people elect representatives to effectively manage the workings of society (government). These representatives can be replaced if they do not act in good faith to accomplish what the majority of people wish.

State governments grant charters for the creation of legal business entities: Sole Proprietorships, Cooperatives, Limited Liability Corporations, and so forth. If these business entities break laws or do not act in good faith within the bounds granted in the charter, or simply no longer act in the best interest of the sovereign people, then THE SOVEREIGN CAN REVOKE THE CHARTER.

I think we all agree that Apple does more good than evil. However, don’t forget that the existence of Apple to conduct its business is granted by the people — not by Apple’s board of directors, by Apple’s management, or by Apple’s employees. The people of the state of California hold sovereignty. If Californians aren’t happy with Apple or any business in their state for any legitimate reason, they can and do revoke business charters. It is not outside of the realm of reality that offshoring corporate profits into tax havens is against the interests of the sovereign people in the state which grants Apple the right to exist.

Now if you believe that American democracy is old-fashioned and that multinational corporations should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, trodding over national sovereignties with impunity, then we have another discussion.

1. I’m not sure but Apple is likely incorporated in Delaware as most C Corps are due to delaware’s insanely flexible corporate code and experience specialized corporate law court.

2. Corporations are generally held to only have a fiduciary duty to its shareholders. US corporate statutes including California’s require little of a corporation but to adhere to the minimal corporate formaltities ( annual meeting, centralized power separate from shareholder etc.), to pursue lawfully making money and paying taxes. As long as no laws are violated then there is no issue no matter how to the line a corp may tread.

3. Even if California citizens decided to alter the state corporate statute to be more burdensome and create a new affirmative duty in regards to taxing money made oversees it would simple spurr and exodus of businesses out of Ca to more business friendly states. A business can incorporate and operate in any state it wishes to. There is nothing geographically specially about silicon valley. Those corporations would just move out and create a new one somewhere else.

2) not quite. corporations must also act within the charter specifically granted to them. as you noted, most US corporations go to Delaware, which offers amongst the least restrictive charters on the planet. however, the professional MANAGERS of said corporation are indeed bound by interpretation of several different corporate laws that they must execute their contractual purpose: to provide maximum fiscal returns to investors.

3) this is exactly why corporations hold the upper hand: they play states off one another, and they play countries off of one another. and now, with their multinational size, they are “too big to fail”. No single government is willing to exercise authority over them. Or, as in the case of the USA, the government representatives are now effectively puppets for them, so corporations are now writing their own regulations and electing their own puppets — directly undermining the sovereign rights of the people and the democracy that our forefathers put in place.

As Jamie Dimon actually admitted, the 99% protestors actually have good points. Corporatocracy that was spread under the guise of “free market” and “free trade” has yielded an unbalanced playing field exploited by the few. Commerce has been corrupted to disproportionately reward the leaders of the corporation, not the sovereign people. Worse, corporate leaders have crushed the very democracy they claim to love by essentially buying elections and commanding the lobbying process such that no sovereign person has a legitimate voice in his own government.

People, wake up and question the system we have, and realize that it needs reform. Corporations are not people, they are supposed to serve people. ALL people, not just shareholders or executives or employees.

So actual problem is with all the douches and turds in politics and in the boardroom. Until that’s addressed, raising taxes, lowering taxes, repatriation… Ha! None of it makes a damned bit of difference.

We always get back to capital for investment. You can hang the so-called fatcats if you want, but the wealth of the country comes from investment- if Apple or anyone else think they can profit from expanding business here, they will do it. If they can do better somewhere else, the money will go there. It’s global competition for investment money- and if you take their toys away they will move- rich people can live anywhere- and of you make doing business harder here than anywhere else, well, good luck with your increased share of nothing 😉

McCain is on Apple’s side and he is on the right side of the issue, as is the case, more often than not.

Obama, of course, opposes it, because his ultimate goal is instability in order to create the impression that people need massive government intervention into citizens’ daily lives in order to survive.

You seriously believe a presidents goal is instability?!? That is ridiculous. I personally agree with McCain on this but I don’t think any president wants instability, thats verging on paranoia.
People tend to disagree with things because they think they’re right. Obviously Obama thinks he’s right. I think he’s wrong but I don’t think he’s actually trying to destabilize the country.

Have you read the recent reports showing that upward mobility is much higher in socialist democracies than in the US? There’s smart socialism and dumb socialism, and there’s democratic socialism and totalitarian socialism. Just as there’s smart democracy and there’s “democracy” run by the people with the money, media, and power to shape public perception. I don’t think Obama is a socialist, but socialism isn’t the boogie-man anyway. Hyper-partisanship and an unbalanced economy based on greed is the enemy, not “socialism.”

Communism is not a matter of one’s belief being right – it is an abomination to individual rights, period. Collectivism does not eliminate tyranny, it invites it, and the few dominate the many. It is not all for one, and one for all. It’s all for the guys at top and frack the rest. Wake up.

In 2009, benefit of the doubt? Sure. In 2010, the argument was getting tougher. In 2011, there’s no doubt my friend.
– Look at the industries he has targeted and in some cases shutting down.
– Look at his stubborn insistence on repeating failed methods of economic stimulation, while ignoring the most simple answer, to trust the American people with their investments.
– Look at the hatred he has verbalized against the success of this nation and the apologies he’s made to the world for it.
– Look at the mentors he has studied, read THEIR literature on how to generate social instability and compare that with what is happening under his leadership.

Oh and remember, the news is a product made for mass consumption. Don’t let them decide what you are permitted and not permitted to know.

Wow. I believe that that is going to be too much truth for this group. Many years ago when the government believed that they should take their piece of the action (taxes), they created a wall blocking that money from being used on American soil. I believe that even the 8.75% is too much. Was that money already taxed in the country where the sale was made? Isn’t that double taxation? We are taxed at every step in each product or service. You are taxed in the phone, electric, gas, … bills. The real-estate tax. It goes on and on.

It would be great if the government only did what they are suppose to in the founding documents and not what they created so they could get re-elected and gain power and wealth by playing the political system. If they did just that, would 1% to 5% create excess cash for them doing only what they were suppose to do and nothing else?

Maybe it is time to hit the reset button before it locks up like Greece and many countries that came and went years ago.

As Ken noted in a post above, if you paid taxes to the local foreign government when the money was made, you get a tax credit for that amount paid in taxes when you pay taxes here. So no, there’s no double taxation. If you paid higher taxes there, any tax owed here just might be zeroed out by that credit, but would almost certainly be greatly reduced.

This is just a money grab by the Republicans, just as they always want to reduce taxes to corporations and the rich.

Again, the problem we have today is NOT how much money the rich or corporations may have – both the top 1-2% and corporations have seen record profits and income in recent years. The problem is how much DEMAND companies see for their products – if there isn’t any demand, they won’t hire any more people, because they don’t need to produce any more goods! Why would they? The amount of money they have in the bank is not an issue in this situation because there is no reason to add to the workforce.

So you are saying that Obams created this recession that happened BEFORE was elected president and was caused by the Bush administration’s refusal to regulate the banks and stock brokers who destroyed this economy with the aid and assistance of the Republican administration?

Educate yourself! The housing bubble was not the reason for the crash, but the bundling of subprime mortgages into “investment” packages, which were then sold to unwitting buyers, was. This whole thing blew up before Obama got into office and was caused because there were no regulations to prevent those “investment packages” from being created and sold.

These aren’t “talking points”, for liberals or anybody else, but are well known and recognized by any reputable economist.

OK, so the banks are required to give loans to people who can’t pay them back. Then from what you’re saying, they were supposed to just sit there and what, let themselves go bankrupt when these loans started defaulting en masse?
Would it not have been better if the government left the proven housing mortgage system alone in the first place?
How on EARTH can de-regulation be blamed for this mess? [face-palm]
Like I said… talking points.

Clearly America only taxes those profits if they reach US shores. As I posted above, apply it to all profits wherever they lay and massively drop the corporation taxes to compensate. Small businesses across the US would get one hell of a cash boost.

What do you mean WHY businesses have been doing this? This is money legitimately made overseas by doing business–selling stuff to people outside the US. According to the rules, US taxes are not paid until the money is repatriated (brought back). The businesses do pay foreign taxes.

Something is broken with tax code. Too many corporations and rich people have figured out how to legally not pay taxes. It should not be this complicated. It should not be so complicated and full of loopholes that allow the wealthy to use tricks to avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

The converse may also be true…too many poor people get away without paying their fair share as well. In my opinion, everyone should pay something. When nearly half of the people pay nothing they become consumers of government and will elect anyone who promised to give them more of the other people’s stuff. We all need skin in this game.

There are international treaties in place so that if taxes are levied in one signatory territory they will not be taxed again in a second. Whether the USA deems it too “communist” to sign such agreements I don’t know. I suspect they’re doing the usual thing and expecting the rest of the world to follow the US way, rather than falling in with other countries to the benefit of US citizens and businesses.

It isn’t taxed twice, the US tax code allows for a tax credit on taxes paid to foreign governments. So any tax paid on that money overseas is credited to a tax bill here, so that bill is either smaller or even wiped out if enough was paid originally.

Then can someone please explain what Apple and co. are complaining about here? Are these corporations pulling the usual rights without responsibilities crap they’ve been allowed to get away with for too long?

Changing the tax code will not stimulate the economy. The flat tax, fair tax, whatever you want to call it. None of that fad talk does anything to improve the economy.

The economy works when there are transactions. As long as govt discourages transactions by regulations, uncertainty, and fiscal irresponsibility, the economy will be stagnant.

Let’s get some basics. If you or your company pays the government x% in taxes then they own you or your company by x% (just like an investor). If the govt rgulates you or your company then they own you (just like an investor). The problem is the govt is a forced investor (aka a parasite)

The govt has become the owner of our souls the more it regulates and taxes. This is the premise used to say we lose our freedoms when the govt is too busy getting into our business, personal or otherwise.

Once the transactions start then the govt will reap the increase in tax revenue. Taxes are paid on transactions. Taxes pay for common service so I am not advocating eliminating taxes, just minimizes them and regulation.

Your comment has nothing to do with the quoted article.
The money was already taxed by the foreign nations where it was earned. It’s not out of the country in some tax shelter.

And what you call a loophole, I call a legal way to avoid having the government take what is mine.

Let me ask you, when you do your taxes do you take the standard deduction or do you itemize in order to pay less? If you itemize and pay less, then you just used a ‘loophole’.

I do agree that the tax code is needlessly complex and wastes billion/year supporting a tax prep industry that contributes nothing tangible to our economy except shifting wealth.
That’s why I like the idea of a flat tax.

well duh…socialism does not work, every dollar in taxation by the Federal Government, regardless if its a corporation or the guy who picks up your trash on Tuesdays, has destroyed what was the once the economic envy of world history.

This cash is left offshore due to the US’s antiquated tax code. Canada, UK and many other countries would allow these profits to be repatriated tax-free, and why shouldn’t they be? They were earned by an active business in a foreign jurisdiction (and already been taxed there) – why is the US trying to tax it?

Itd,
You are absolutely correct. The US had nothing to do with the income and would benefit greatly by having it reside in the US – the so-called foreign tax havens where US corporations allegedly “shelter” their cash are just the locations where the income was earned and the US tax code keeps it there by claiming a right to tax it at 35% if it is brought to the US. – McCain is fighting for Apple on this but 8% is still an exorbitant tax rate on money that has already been taxed. I’m sure Apple would pay a dividend to “investors in their success” , i.e.., shareholders, if they didn’t have to uselessly pay the US for the privilege of earning it elsewhere. A 0% rate on bring the money into the US is the only valid taxation rate. Conversely, for money earned in the US – okay, the going taxation rate is fair.