Panda changed the way dailies are handled a lot. You need the rep with Golden Lotus, Shado-Pan, etc... if you want to purchase Valor or Justice point items now, and the only way to get that rep is through the daily's. Blizzard's stance seems to be that the daily's aren't necessary to get geared, and as a result you don't need to do them, however I know myself and some of my friends are from the view point that, yes it's not necessary for gearing, but the plus sides to having access to Valor points and the other reputation perks, are too big to not do the daily's. Technically we aren't forced to do them, but practically, we are.

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"89.7% of the things you read on the internet are a lie, including this statement."

Hopes that one day we can live in a world were the RNG and Loot gods are nice.

In 5.1, you get double rep for your alts and once you hit Revered, you get double rep until exalted.

Not sure if the Double Rep from buying the token AND the double rep after revered stack or not, but if it did, reps will be really fast once you get Revered, especially on alts.

Either way, it is still quite a nice improvement, as this takes away 10,500 rep you need to get which is 25% of all the rep needed to get from 0 neutral to exalted from your main, and the total rep from 0 neutral to exalted on an alt (without stacking) is only 21,000. That's like having everyone start at Revered.

Not to mention, surely these double rep tokens stack with racial/guild perks too? So if a rep normally gives 250... you should get 500 from the token and then another 50 from the perk, bringing that up to 550 out of what was once a 250 quest?

As to whether or not you "must" do dailies...

You can get full 463 by doing Heroics and Scenarios; you can buy a few pieces of 476 gear that ain't that too hard to make (the plate armor uses 5-8 living steel per, plus spirits, but those aren't hard to get), and you can get 558 from Justice vendors, when you just can't fill a slot no matter what you try.

These are easily enough to get into LFR (which I've heard is quite easy). Some lucky drops with LFR and you'll be wearing 470+ in no time.

To what extent have there ever been dailies that weren't necessary in the sense you've defined? You want that we should go jousting?

Rep grinds have been annoying since their first introduction, these are at least less annoying than older ones. We aren't forced to grind for head and shoulder enchants and for that alone I'm deliriously happy.

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In Chinese: glasses are yanjing; eyes are yanjing, and the beer of Beijing is Yanjing. When speaking, the difference is in the tones. Did I just order a glass of beer or a glass of eyes?

Truly optional dailies like the Tillers & Anglers provide nice break. Much like Pet Battles, they enhance the end game by giving us something to do & work towards.

Forced rep grinds like Golden Lotus, or even worse gated rep grinds like August Celestials are bunk. They are simply a way to force people to log on and do something. Molten Front Dailies and ToC dailies gave you goodies, such as titles, pets, etc. You don't have to do it, to progrsss in raid content. But with the current set up, gearing up and pushing content without valour gear is doing it with one arm behind your back. Even more so after 5.1 and the gear upgrades. It is also clear that the playerbase doesn't enjoy it. More so they don't buy into Blizzards reasoning for it.

Obviously at some point later in the expansion they will make gaining rep become a joke, new & returning players won't want to come in and have to farm 3 weeks for Golden Lotus to get access to gear. So rep gained will be increased. Right now, it is the only stumbling block of an otherwise solid expansion.

Well other then Golden Lotus they are stupid quick, even quicker in a group, and almost all of Them have VP gear at Revered. Exalted is for mounts/special. So I dont understand why everyone is whining. I have 2 90 toons atm, Rogue 479 ilvl and hes almost exalted with everyone, and My warrior who's 473 and is only revered with Klaxxi, and Exalted with tillers cuase their easy.

So in other words if gear is your only worry just get revered and stop doing em. But On average tillers took about 15 mins to do, Golden Lotus about 40 mins(20 in a group), Klaxxi about 20 mins (Mostly depends on the daily group) Shadowpan about 20 mins, August celestials about 10-15 mins (depends on that days temple), and CloudSerpent people like 30 mins give or take.

Yes when your doing all the dailies at the same time it feels like overkill, and youll burn yourself out, and if you would prefer you can always go for a Hozen Peace Pipe.

So in other words if gear is your only worry just get revered and stop doing em. But On average tillers took about 15 mins to do, Golden Lotus about 40 mins(20 in a group), Klaxxi about 20 mins (Mostly depends on the daily group) Shadowpan about 20 mins, August celestials about 10-15 mins (depends on that days temple), and CloudSerpent people like 30 mins give or take.

Yes when your doing all the dailies at the same time it feels like overkill, and youll burn yourself out, [...] [/link].

Almost 2.5 hours (or more) to do all the dailies, solo, with the "needed" people? That is 30min shy (or all my time) of all my play time I can give during the week, and this is where my issue is at. I would totally tank more Heroic Randoms if I could just put a tabard on and run a few each night and gain rep with groups.

Golden Lotus is about 2 weeks of dailies that take 30-40 minutes to clear to hit revered. That is a lot of /played to open up yet more dailies to grind. I can agree with you on a level, but for the players who are trying to zerg it or multiple reps at a time it is an easy way to burn out.

Golden Lotus is about 2 weeks of dailies that take 30-40 minutes to clear to hit revered. That is a lot of /played to open up yet more dailies to grind. I can agree with you on a level, but for the players who are trying to zerg it or multiple reps at a time it is an easy way to burn out.

On the other hand, those same players who burn out from the rep grind never would have survived as raiders in vanilla.

Take that, clam stackers.

If the emoticon wasn't clear enough, this post was meant to be very tongue-in-cheek. The following spoiler is rated PG-13:If you were offended, please go **** yourself, because seriously, you need to get laid and obviously no one else is doing it.

If you are in a progression guild, you kind of do. My current guild isn't progression but we are top 10 on server (6/6 MoV, 3/6 HoF), we have 2-3 players who haven't done the dailies (myself included). I was about 15-18 Ilvl's behind our Druid who has everything maxed. I wasn't competitive, it took me getting some lucky HoF gear and getting Golden Lotus Revered to swing up to 481 equipped ilvl.

If I wasn't raiding with people I have played with since 2009 and was in a competitive raid group how long do you think they would put up with me not doing dailies to get upgrades?

Not sure if the Double Rep from buying the token AND the double rep after revered stack or not, but if it did, reps will be really fast once you get Revered, especially on alts.

The token is their way of putting in the double rep after revered. You have to be revered to buy them. A blue said that they didn't make it an automatic switch because there was no good way to show that you are now getting double rep. Plus it makes it easy for them to pick and choose which reps that want to have that halved at Revered part. So if they want the old school reps to still have the normal amount of revered rep, they can.

I guess I'm just mostly annoyed about the time thing. I'm in 12th grade right now trying to balance high school, college prep, and my free time. As a result, my free time isn't much. To have to do Golden Lotus just to do dailies with Shado-Pan and Celestials is really annoying. It's an additional level of grinding that I simply don't have the time to do.

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"89.7% of the things you read on the internet are a lie, including this statement."

Hopes that one day we can live in a world were the RNG and Loot gods are nice.

If you are in a progression guild, you kind of do. My current guild isn't progression but we are top 10 on server (6/6 MoV, 3/6 HoF), we have 2-3 players who haven't done the dailies (myself included). I was about 15-18 Ilvl's behind our Druid who has everything maxed. I wasn't competitive, it took me getting some lucky HoF gear and getting Golden Lotus Revered to swing up to 481 equipped ilvl.

If I wasn't raiding with people I have played with since 2009 and was in a competitive raid group how long do you think they would put up with me not doing dailies to get upgrades?

I understand that there may be circumstances that require you to grind dailies, but it's still a game and you chose to join a progression guild or a casual guild. There are no daily requirements other than those you've imposed on yourself.

There are no daily requirements other than those you've imposed on yourself.

Blizzard creates a carrot. For some players a mandatory carrot that is required in order to play at a level they have participated at for years. In Mists they then create an additional grind in order to access the carrot, above and beyond the time honored requirement of 'farming valor'. Then they put the blame on the player base for hating the content they are forced to play in order to get the mandatory carrot.

Almost 2.5 hours (or more) to do all the dailies, solo, with the "needed" people? That is 30min shy (or all my time) of all my play time I can give during the week, and this is where my issue is at. I would totally tank more Heroic Randoms if I could just put a tabard on and run a few each night and gain rep with groups.

Well if your playing 3 hours a week you arent the intended target, your not raiding, it sounds like, so you can pick and choose who you want to do and how fast, I mean of course your going to be slower the someone that plays 3 hours everyday.

bodhisattva wrote:

Golden Lotus is about 2 weeks of dailies that take 30-40 minutes to clear to hit revered.

Yes, but you can halve that if you find a group for those dailies.

bodhisattva wrote:

If you are in a progression guild, you kind of do. My current guild isn't progression but we are top 10 on server (6/6 MoV, 3/6 HoF), we have 2-3 players who haven't done the dailies (myself included). I was about 15-18 Ilvl's behind our Druid who has everything maxed. I wasn't competitive, it took me getting some lucky HoF gear and getting Golden Lotus Revered to swing up to 481 equipped ilvl.

Uhm Your not 18 ilvl behind the druid because your not exalted with ALL reps. He either had better/more drops, bought the crafted 496 gear, or saved all his greater tokens and got awesome drops with HoF LFR/Normal/Heroic MSV. I kinda show that with my 2 toons Bacon, the warrior was a week later hitting 90 and im 6 ilvls behind my main Dracian. The only way that would be more feasible is if you were 3k/3k VP capped every week and had nothing to spend your points on, and since the weekly cap is 1k vp anyway. It would take you 3 weeks to reach that point, which if you choose to do only 1 set of dailies a day, you should have enough rep to buy something ( **** you hit near half way thru Honored Klaxxi just doing the entire Dread wastes SL). Not to mention VP gear is ilvl 489 so even in full VP gear you would be behind him.

My point being. If you take out all non-gear related reps (Tillers, Cloud Serpents, Anglers), you're left with Klaxxi, Golden Lotus, August Celestials, and Shado-pan. So until revered with GL/Klaxxi, you only need to do those, I think Klaxxi you get about 1.5k-2k a day rep( I could be wrong) from the basic dailies, and GL you get like 1.2k a day, now Im going to guess after basic lvling/question in correct zones. you start off Neutral with GL and I'm guessing about beginning honored, so you need 12k Klaxxi rep to reach Revered or about 7-10 days. Maybe a tad longer if you didn't quest in Dread Wastes leveling. As for Golden Lotus, just dailies takes like 3-4 weeks to get to revered.

Now Ill completely agree with all of you about GL being a grind, but as for raiding it's less about the rep grinds for VP as your capped weekly anyway, and more about the lesser tokens for the 3 loot tokens a week, so as a raider you need at least 90 lesser tokens a week. How you get there is up to you, but if you do only the dailies for raiding, thats means 45 quests a week, or could be broken down to revering Klaxxi the first week, and Golden Lotus, subsequent weeks for 45 quests a week, by the time you had enough VP to buy all three of the Klaxxi purples you would be, close to Revered with Golden Lotus only doing dailies for your Loot tokens.

Sorry just to show you all something Im going to put all the mathy stuff out. Klaxxi VP items, neck (Honored,1250), waist(1750), pants(2250) ilvl 489 total VP to buy all 3 = 5250 VP Weekly VP Cap 1000, 5.25 weeks to obtain all VP gear Approx Rep a day 1.5k Totals number of daily quests a day, 8 Amount of Daily quests to get Greater charms a week 45, Amount of rep received if all 45 are Klaxxi dailies 6750 rep a week (45* 150 rep per quest). Approx. 3 weeks to go from starter rep (about half way throu honored) to revered 3 weeks (maybe less kinda estimating)

I think you might see the pattern. To fully Vp out every item it would take 21 weeks of VP cap every week, but would take about 16 weeks of dailies to revere every faction(with VP), ONLY DOING dailies for Lesser charms to raid which = only 3-5 days of doing dailies with just one faction.

Now were forgetting another point for the raider, Only MSV drops ilvl 489 (same ilvl as VP), HoF drops 496, and Not sure about TES (Terrace of Endless Spings)

So if a raider only did weekly lesser token (90) dailies, for greater tokens, Rep items suddenly become side/options for slot. So Bliz was right Vp is good for casuals doing Raidfinder, since it stays a higher Ilvl til terrace. But for raiders its outclassed by HoF.

Druid has replaced some of the vp gear already, but currently has 3 pieces of epic from Klaaxi that I don't, so 463 vs 489. 2 weeks ago when I was still mostly blue and HoF gear hadn't popped it was even more noticeable.

I had even watched the Weekly Marmot where Lore broke down the whole Daily grind, and at the time I agreed with him. However 5 weeks back into the game and I am loving the raid content, loving Tillers, loving professions, pet battle and haven't even found the time to start pvp'ing. But each time I force myself to do a daily I hate it just a little bit more. Thought to be fair in other threads I have stated that I have resigned myself to the fact that I am not willing to commit the time to grinding out an aspect of the game I thoroughly dislike and have come to terms with being behind the gear curve of my raid.

With the 5.1 upgrades, it has become even more important that I get those reps up because it is no longer a case only being a hurdle during the initial gear up, but not with the upgrades it will perform against raid gear unless you are pushing HM's, which I hope to do by the time it releases, but you never know

I can understand why many people don't want do to the dailies. But this "Blizzard forces us to do them" is just wrong. Sure if you want to be bleeding edge you have to do them. But that's entirely up to each player. I don't think Classic/BC were any less demanding for a hardcore progression raider. I haven't played Classic at all and BC extremely casual so I could be wrong. But that's the trade-off for being on top. A huge time commitment plus the skill to take the gear to good use.

And thanks to crafted gear, LFR, world bosses and the odd epic drop in HC dungeons it is possible to get decent equip without doing dailies.

I don't think Classic/BC were any less demanding for a hardcore progression raider. I haven't played Classic at all and BC extremely casual so I could be wrong. But that's the trade-off for being on top.

I can't seem to find it, but on my old guild forums, we posted a copy of the requirements one of the more progressed guilds on our server had for progression Naxx40 raiders. The list of weekly consumables was immense and ridiculous. I think I calculated it out to needing around 20 hours of farming a week at my gold/mats gathering speed at the time in order to be ready for the week's raids. And back then, many of us considered that completely reasonable.

I was in University & didn't raid in Vanilla, but in TBC, to be good for a 5 day week of raiding I farmed for maybe 1 hour a week when it came to consumables. That covered my flasks and mana pots when you could gulp multiple pots in a raid. The slowest part was having 2-3 stacks of food, depending on how lazy I was I would mooch it from someone in raid.

I had a run in netherstorm and another in Terrokar forest that was pretty minty. I also traded with a rogue, as the stuff he didn't use I used and vice a versa.

"Forced rep grinds like Golden Lotus, or even worse gated rep grinds like August Celestials are bunk."

They suck and I am not going to do them. It's annoying that Bliz would make so much of the game overly easy and simple to attract more customers, then do this kind of nonsense that many, many people just flat-out will not do.

So I read all of that. I would like to see a Champion system. Maybe I can champion one group, while doing the dailies with another but gain rep with each. In doing so the Other group's dailies are "done" for me for the day (to stop double gain). Would be awesome if I could earn rep with the "needed" ones while I did the dailies for the Farmers and the Fishers.

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Well if your playing 3 hours a week you arent the intended target, your not raiding, it sounds like, so you can pick and choose who you want to do and how fast, I mean of course your going to be slower the someone that plays 3 hours everyday.

Early morning post got me there :3 not 3hours a week, 3 hours a day. More on the weekend. I do raid, and we go 3 nights (we still have an issue with mechanics on Guard Dogs in Vaults, hopefully the issue with a few players can be resolved/weeded out this week) in Vaults. I've not stepped into LFR, but I may end up doing so maybe this week if the guild goes again.

The guy has a family, a job, and leveled nine freaking alts in ~48 days and he's complaining about not enough time to do one character's dailies up to Revered (so that he can get the double rep in 5.1)?

Um.......whaaaaaaat?

My God, if he can level nine characters that fast, surely he's got 30 minutes to spend per day doing a few dailies?

And pretty soon he'd be done with leveling (he can only have 11 per server) at that rate, and surely he can pick one "main" and do the dailies on said "main".

But that's just my opinion.

The Golden Lotus dailies don't take that long; once you do the initial few quests, you can do all the Golden Lotus stuff within half an hour. It ain't that hard, really. I wouldn't want to do that on multiple characters in the same day, of course not. I'd pick one and do it on them. Or get a guildie or buddy and group up with em and do it; it goes by even quicker.

Klaxxi, that's about 20 min or so once you've unlocked everything through normal quests (which gets you Honored by itself, without dailies).

Tillers? lol, I can get that done in 10-15min and it takes just over a week to get exalted.

Haven't tried Anglers or Cloud Serpents yet, but do they even sell gear?

I would love to get a reply from his family. Nine level 90's seems so ... addictive? Especially within 2 months. Maybe some were 85's to begin with, but it still seems a bit over the top.

Get some fresh air.

Don't know about everybody else, but starting from 85 in 377 gear even with the 372 weapon you get from the start...

It took me about 4 days to get my first 90 and during that 4 days I also poked around with a couple other characters, getting them to 87, doing a bit here, a bit there.

Then I got 2 more characters to 90 and... that's about all I could stomach doing. I burn out easy. But still. 48 days, 9 level 90s (assuming they all started from 85)?

Yeeesh.

He was probably leveling, what, 5 hours a day? At least? The first two characters probably didn't have much rested to speak of, the second two probably had a little, and the last four probably had a decent amount of rested.

Still though.

Nine 85->90s? In ~45 days? That's an avg of 5 days per character; I'm going to say that yeah he was probably playing at least 5-6 hours a day.

With a job and a family.

Yeesh. I work 25-35 hours a week and I can't even do 5 hours a day religiously. And I live with my parents.

How the heck does this guy manage that, and more importantly, why are the 30-min-a-day dailies turning him off so badly? He's no stranger to repetition; he likely did Kun-Lai Summit and Townlong Steppes nine freaking times. At least the dailies are random....

Yeesh. I work 25-35 hours a week and I can't even do 5 hours a day religiously. And I live with my parents.

How the heck does this guy manage that, and more importantly, why are the 30-min-a-day dailies turning him off so badly? He's no stranger to repetition; he likely did Kun-Lai Summit and Townlong Steppes nine freaking times. At least the dailies are random....

Slacker. Back in the old days, I used to play about 7-8 hours a day(more on the weekends), worked a 40 hour workweek and watched a daily 3-4 hours of anime. If you're having trouble adding that up, you're putting too many hours under "sleep". If he's spending 3-4 hours with the family a day and severely neglecting sleep like I used to, it's easily manageable. And with the sleep deprivation, it all blends together a bit anyway, so who cares about repetition.

Still funny that the dailies are the straw that broke the camel's back, though..

Yeesh. I work 25-35 hours a week and I can't even do 5 hours a day religiously. And I live with my parents.

How the heck does this guy manage that, and more importantly, why are the 30-min-a-day dailies turning him off so badly? He's no stranger to repetition; he likely did Kun-Lai Summit and Townlong Steppes nine freaking times. At least the dailies are random....

Slacker. Back in the old days, I used to play about 7-8 hours a day(more on the weekends), worked a 40 hour workweek and watched a daily 3-4 hours of anime. If you're having trouble adding that up, you're putting too many hours under "sleep". If he's spending 3-4 hours with the family a day and severely neglecting sleep like I used to, it's easily manageable. And with the sleep deprivation, it all blends together a bit anyway, so who cares about repetition.

Still funny that the dailies are the straw that broke the camel's back, though..

See, my issue is that I suffer from burnout.

I can only do the same zones so many times before I start getting "bleh".

And no matter how you roll the dice, you're forced to start in Jade Forest until at least 86 and you will be doing at least some Kun-lai and Townlong Steppes.

Valley and Krasarang are not going to get you to Level 90, not even if you do 100% Jade Forest, 100% Valley and 100% Krasarang; you'll be on about 88 and a half if you had rested, assuming no Potions of XP or Enlightenment.

So... Kun-Lai and Townlong are getting old as ****, lol.

I suppose there's LFD, but... I don't like the 30min wait as DPS, I suck at healing (and I always play melee when possible), and tanking.. not sure I like some tanking changes that were made since Cata. I can't seem to get the hang of it, not sure why.

My Alliance blacksmith is just newly 89; she's been 88 for like a week now because I just couldn't find the focus to actually get on and push her to 90, even though I know I need to get her on 90. Just like I need an herbalist on 90 or at least something close to that so I can start transmuting living steel. And my tailor? My horde side has a tailor with 30 some imperial silk.. haven't made a single bolt of it on my Alliance side yet because I haven't really had the energy to deal with that much crap I have to do.

The guy has a family, a job, and leveled nine freaking alts in ~48 days and he's complaining about not enough time to do one character's dailies up to Revered (so that he can get the double rep in 5.1)?

These dailies, while I like the quests themselves honestly, take way longer than that (for me at least.) The Lotus ones are much closer to an hour when you factor in the 2nd hub of them - Mistfall village is a nightmare simply due to the sheer number of people compacted in that little spot tagging/grabbing things. The ruins part is the same with Runes/spiders. It's not that the quests are hard, it's that it takes forever to get the number of things you need.

Shadopan can be the same way depending on which set you get. The one where you need 4 Elites takes ages for me - there aren't that many of these things, they patrol with huge packs of support, and everybody else is looking for them too. I find I can easily spend almost 30 minutes on this one just trying to *find* one of these guys and wait until he's reasonably safe to pull.

Klaxxi usually just requires a huge number of dead things and isn't too bad on its own. I don't like the area or mobs really but that's a personal thing.

Celestials, I actually think are perfect honestly. You pick up one quest which sends you to one of several different places, do 3 quests there then the "boss" quest and you're done. One location, four quests, 300-ish rep each in about 10 minutes.

And honestly, overall my problem with the dailies isn't the dailies, it's that they are literally the only place to get everything right now and so are nearly mandatory. And also at the same time, I feel like I am being punished for doing what they clearly want me to do as I now have nearly 10 stacks of Elder Charms clogging up my bags that I can do nothing with.

489 gear. You don't get anything close to it in dungeons. You can't get it in LFR. You can get it from dailies. Ergo, to me at least, this makes doing dungeons absolutely pointless anymore, and LFR only kind of worth it. So endless dailies it is.

But you can still only get 1000/week (roughly 1/2 a piece of gear) and get completely buried in Charms in the process.

My wife is far more casual than I am. She has 1 toon that she really plays. We raid 2 nights/week but other than that, she may log in and do more than check mail . .I'll say 2 other days/week on average. She *may* do a round of dailies once a week. If she feels like it. With this current system in place it is going to be months before she gets any gear.

We used to be able to spam a bunch of heroics for whatever pre-raid gear there was on a weekend or something but there's just nothing there now and no reason to go. That used to be a big thing - guildmates and friends and whatnot logging on together to run stuff to get phat lootz, dragging the ungeared one through to get him/her geared up. Now it's logging on by yourself to do the same 3 hours of dailies everyday because any group thing provides worse rewards.

Nah, I've done tillers in as little as 12.5 minutes. That's including picking, and planting crops. Now, granted, that's when the dailies send you to the Virmen Hill, not the Hozen Village. Hozen Village, add ~5 minutes because of trying to avoid all of those stupid monkeys and still complete your objectives. Seriously, I hate that stupid hozen village and its elites running around everywhere, not to mention the overpowered non-elite monkeys that do simply way too much damage.

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These dailies, while I like the quests themselves honestly, take way longer than that (for me at least.) The Lotus ones are much closer to an hour when you factor in the 2nd hub of them - Mistfall village is a nightmare simply due to the sheer number of people compacted in that little spot tagging/grabbing things. The ruins part is the same with Runes/spiders. It's not that the quests are hard, it's that it takes forever to get the number of things you need.

I've not done a _lot_ of Golden Lotus dailies, I'm not to Honored yet, but the first part + second part (they send me to that lake with the ruby eyes usually, though I got sent once to the place where you gotta knock apples out of a tree with fireworks), that usually only takes me about 20-25min. IF there's another quest hub -after- that, at Honored, then yeah it'll take a little longer.

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Shadopan can be the same way depending on which set you get. The one where you need 4 Elites takes ages for me - there aren't that many of these things, they patrol with huge packs of support, and everybody else is looking for them too. I find I can easily spend almost 30 minutes on this one just trying to *find* one of these guys and wait until he's reasonably safe to pull.

Haven't done Shado-pan yet...

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Klaxxi usually just requires a huge number of dead things and isn't too bad on its own. I don't like the area or mobs really but that's a personal thing.

With the ridiculously powerful buffs you get in there, Klaxxi dailies tend to be quick and easy, at least they are for me depending on what buffs you choose.

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And honestly, overall my problem with the dailies isn't the dailies, it's that they are literally the only place to get everything right now and so are nearly mandatory. And also at the same time, I feel like I am being punished for doing what they clearly want me to do as I now have nearly 10 stacks of Elder Charms clogging up my bags that I can do nothing with.

It'd help if they'd fix the ridiculously small chance of getting loot from LFR, to be honest. I've heard stories of players who have done LFR every week they could and have 0-2 pieces to show for it, even after spending bonus coins.

This should not be allowed; the % chance of a drop should climb every boss until you get something and then the counter should get reset. If you get lucky, you get it early. If you don't, you are still guaranteed to get something after <3 runs.

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489 gear. You don't get anything close to it in dungeons. You can't get it in LFR. You can get it from dailies. Ergo, to me at least, this makes doing dungeons absolutely pointless anymore, and LFR only kind of worth it. So endless dailies it is.

But you can still only get 1000/week (roughly 1/2 a piece of gear) and get completely buried in Charms in the process.

Charms are becoming a currency, and what happens when you get exalted? You're not going to do the dailies unless you want extra gold, so later in the expansion, all factions Exalted, you'll be needing those charms for later raids.

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My wife is far more casual than I am. She has 1 toon that she really plays. We raid 2 nights/week but other than that, she may log in and do more than check mail . .I'll say 2 other days/week on average. She *may* do a round of dailies once a week. If she feels like it. With this current system in place it is going to be months before she gets any gear.

I'm similar, though my problem is more alts. I'm not really complaining though; I'll get it when I get it. I'm not out for world firsts or anything like that. As long as I can see each raid boss die sometime during this expansion, or even just killing Garrosh this expansion, I'll be happy.

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We used to be able to spam a bunch of heroics for whatever pre-raid gear there was on a weekend or something but there's just nothing there now and no reason to go. That used to be a big thing - guildmates and friends and whatnot logging on together to run stuff to get phat lootz, dragging the ungeared one through to get him/her geared up. Now it's logging on by yourself to do the same 3 hours of dailies everyday because any group thing provides worse rewards.

They need to come out with a happy medium, true.

In Wrath and Cataclysm -- THOU MUST GROUP OR GET NOTHING. Solo people, go home with nothing. In MoP -- You need to do dailies if you want to spend your valor.

And to be honest, walking up to an NPC and buying a full set of current raid gear after doing enough Heroics was kinda stupid -- they're right about that. But yet gating everything behind dailies I'm not sure is the right answer, either.

So what IS the right answer, then?

Tabards for Rep? I always thought that was a stupid system -- you're suddenly best-buds with people you've never seen in person before because you wore their tabard and killed a bunch of crap in a dungeon? That never made sense to me.

They're getting closer to the right answer -- dailies SHOULD give good rewards. However, dailies shouldn't be so important to a player who wants to gear his character up, to the point that doing dungeons is nigh-useless without the dailies (especially with the hilariously bad chance at getting gear through LFR).

Some afterthoughts I had after writing that post, and didn't feel like making such a huge edit:

What I think they need to do with the MoP Endgame System:

1). Your Chance for getting a drop in LFR should increase by 30% every time you use a coin, to the point that every 3rd coin you use guarantees a drop. Once you get a drop after using a coin, this counter gets reset. So, on the first boss you use a coin, you have the chance from the boss drop + chance from the coin drop and +30% drop chance ontop of that. Second time you use a coin, you get the chance from the boss's drop, + chance from the coin drop, +60% drop chance. And the Third time you use a coin, you are guaranteed an item from that boss. This would also make coin use more strategic (last boss drops a weapon I need? I better use 2 coins and save the last for him) as well. If you Don't use a coin and get an item, the counter wouldn't be touched at all.

By doing this, you ensure that LFR remains a viable way to gear up (and you don't blow coin after coin after coin and see only 28g pop up in the window).

2). Leave dailies and reps alone (other than the bonus in Patch 5.1), BUT instead, make end-bosses from Heroics and Scenarios drop Rep Gain tokens. Said tokens give +250 rep (maybe 500? not sure) to a faction of your choice. Each Quartermaster would allow you to turn in said token for rep with that faction. That way, if you do lots of Heroics, you can gain rep in some way other than dailies, but yet not gain rep so fast that dailies are no longer necessary (which is how it was during Wrath and Cataclysm; who needs dailies when you get 2k per dungeon run?). Perhaps the Scenario bosses' tokens should only give half rep that the Heroic ones do; Scenarios are much shorter and easier than Heroic dungeons.

A great way to speed dailies up is just grouping with people. Just before you get the quests write something like "lfg Golden Lotus Part 1" in /1. When you have a party of 3 or 4 people it really speeds things up. Better yet, find 2 or 3 guildies that have a similar playing schedule like yourself and do the dailies together with them. Even with all the dailies that are available at revered I rarely need more than 40 minutes for all Golden Lotus dailies. Shado-Pan are a piece of cake also. IF you have a group.

I may have exaggerated some, but my point still stands I think. Even if you figure 15 for Tillers, another 15 for Anglers and 30 for each of the rest (which can honestly go either side of that figure depending on the set and number of other people competing), you get Lotus, Klaxxi, Celestial, Cloud Serpent, Shadopan at 30 min each for about 2.5 hours of dailies to do all of them.

Sure, once you get exalted you don't *need* to do them all anymore, but if you want VP, dailies seem the more . . .fruitful option than heroics by a good margin. The vp/hour rate is probably about the same with both and at least while doing dailies I can mine, collect usually at least a few hundred gold in rewards/loot. Dungeons don't seem to really drop vendor fodder anymore and the gold drop rate seems (maybe I'm wrong) a lot lower than it used to be so the profit is definitely in doing anything other than dungeons it seems.

I guess my problem with the whole situation rally boils down to the vast disconnect in gear level - the Valor 489s are *massively* more highly statted than the 463 dungeon blues. If you were able to get the same gear level from either dailies OR dungeons then I think it would ease the pain a lot.

But you can't. At least not currently. Maybe once I get exalted with all of them and actually have everything available to buy, then spamming dungeons will be a possibility to get VP that way instead. But to use my wife as an example again, she wants to run dungeons - she likes them; she doesn't want to do dailies; she doesn't like them. But now she's nearly Valor capped and literally can do nothing with it because she doesn't put in the couple hours a day to build rep with everybody. So somebody who just likes dungeoning and raiding is kinda screwed out of gear.

I like the rep token idea.

I think another option would be having the Valor gear and Heroic gear be the same level so it doesn't matter what you do to get it. Maybe have different looking sets for each.

And I agree about the LFR loot system; I think it's terrible. I don't like not seeing anything drop. I don't like the feeling of getting 28g for killing a raid boss. I use my roll tokens just to get rid of them but all I have gotten is the same robe 5 times now. I don't even know what any of them drop that I can motivate myself to try for because they don't really visibly "drop" anything anymore.

Grouping for dailies would probably be a good idea, I just never would have thought of it. I have been solo questing for so long it wasn't even a consideration. I haven't noticed or talked in /1 since . . .mid Wrath before the dungeon finder.

Reputation gear has higher stats than dungeon drops because it is harder (not talking skill here) to acquire. Nothing wrong with that. Also the moment you unlock Shado-Pan and Celestials you can stop doing Golden Lotus. Anglers are completely optional for gearing just like Loremasters. Tillers are not needed for gearing either. You just have to prioritize. Do Golden Lotus (until revered) plus Klaxxi. Then after they unlock do Shado-Pan plus Celestials plus Klaxxi. Once you have those high enough for your rewards you can alternate two or three factions each day until you have all at exalted. After that you just do enough each week to get 90 Charmes and Valor Cap.

Which brings us to: Don't try to cap Valor by doing only one activity. Do some dailies. Run some HCs each week (more than one/day is not effective). There are 3 LFR you can choose from. And scenarios. As I wrote in another thread here, with a healthy mix you get to Valor cap rather easy and without repeating the same task over and over.

I would recommend grouping with guildies not only for dailies but for scenarios and HCs too. Prevents brain damage.

There. You don't miss anything and burnout is much less likely to occur.

Oh man I wanted to voice my opinion on this stuff when that 'I love Mists of Pandaria' thread was started because this is a major sticking point with a lot of people on this expansion. If this system stays in place, I think this expansion is going to 'fail' as badly as Cataclysm.

And to all those saying it's easy to ignore the dailies you have two options: 1) Ignore the dailies and waste your justice and valor points. 2) Do the dailies.

Very few people opt for option one (almost no one who is interested in gearing for pve) so by default people are doing the dailies. Now, you have options for the dailies in how fast you do them (but this may not be too viable as I'll point out in a moment).

IMO it's a terrible decision. I feel like I still have to do dungeons and raids for the VP/JP (though I would be interested in seeing how the point gain compares to doing heroics and raids) so where is the option here? Reps (apart from the enchants) used to be a pretty optional activity - I never capped out on SSO, AT, or Molten Front and I felt like I could progress just fine. Not so now. You will do the dailies (at a fairly consistent rate - can't really sit on them for 6 months and go back and do them for the mounts) or you will stare at your unused valor points in your currency tab.

Here's my question though: what was wrong with the old system? There were JP and VP vendors and then you had rep vendors that had a couple gear and vanity items for purchase. They provided a nice supplement to gearing up. Don't like how fast tabards allowed rep gain? OK then dailies it is. The real problem is combining the JP/VP vendors and the reps. And JP items aren't as good as what is available in heroics? LOL what? Why? It just feels lazy. It's not real content. It's not *real* difficulty. It just feels broken.

And here is the deeper problem: we're all at least grudgingly accepting of the daily grind for now. I mean, it's going to end right? LOL. Uh, what if they do the same thing on future tiers of content? If you take the slow boat to rep city you quickly find yourself under water looking at all those 0/3000 neutral (or whatever underleveled value you're stuck at) reps. Uh, no thank you. /unsub

I would laugh if Blizz implemented a similar system for PvP gear. My own little bit of schadenfreude. I mean it makes sense right? Fair is fair Everyone has to jump through the hoops. Of course if they did that they know their pvp-focused playerbase would have none of it and subs would plummet.

It seems obvious that this is a terrible system. I mean it has to change, right? RIGHT!? /sigh Sometimes it's cathartic to just rant a little bit. I do wish they would come out with their longer term plans so that I could plan accordingly and maybe spend my time doing something else.

This is why I PvP. My rep is honor, and my valor points are conquest points.

Guess what I do to earn them? PvP.

I saw the beginning of this crap in TBC, and I hated it. Rep grinds are stupid when they're for progression.

Right now I only do the Tillers and Anglers. Because they're fun and easy.

The reason why PvP is so easy, is because you don't kill bosses for drops (not counting Sha/TB/Vault). The entirety of PvP Progression is "get points for killing players" which sounds right. You do PvP, you get points. You use points to buy armor and weapons.

PvE, however, is more complicated than that. People want fat lewtz out of killing bosses, right? That sounds sensible. However, bosses don't drop enough gear to keep everybody happy, AND there's too much RNG. You need to fill, what, 15 slots on your character sheet and there's 5 people in a heroic dungeon group. That's 75 slots to fill if my quick math is working properly.

But yet if you gear people TOO fast, then the content seems trivial and too easy. So they added a point system so that people are guaranteed to get SOMETHING even if it isn't gear.

In Vanilla, you had complaints "I ran xxxxxx and got nothing!" then they tried the badges and it was "OMG, it takes 90 badges for gear? GAH!" and now we have Justice/Valor, it was "It is kinda stupid you can run dungeons and just buy gear... what's the point of boss drops?"

So what exactly are they supposed to do to fix PvE?

Like I said, the current model is closer to the goal -- but still not perfect. Best thing we can do is come up with suggestions and ways to improve it and hope Blizz sees it and improves upon it.

This is why I PvP. My rep is honor, and my valor points are conquest points.

Guess what I do to earn them? PvP.

The reason why PvP is so easy, is because you don't kill bosses for drops (not counting Sha/TB/Vault). The entirety of PvP Progression is "get points for killing players" which sounds right. You do PvP, you get points. You use points to buy armor and weapons.

PvE, however, is more complicated than that. People want fat lewtz out of killing bosses, right? That sounds sensible. However, bosses don't drop enough gear to keep everybody happy, AND there's too much RNG. You need to fill, what, 15 slots on your character sheet and there's 5 people in a heroic dungeon group. That's 75 slots to fill if my quick math is working properly.

But yet if you gear people TOO fast, then the content seems trivial and too easy.

Bolded part.

PvP certainly has a 'gearing up process.' Mostly involving you playing a supporting role for better geared characters until you're geared enough to hold your own. However when you reach your gear cap the game continues to be intriguing longer because PvP is just a more dynamic environment. You really don't end up with the same situation as often, which is nice. Of course after a while there's burnout there as well (another OP Frost Mage... or whatever.), but (IMO) it helps keep it interesting longer.

Now if only they could find a way to make PvE more dynamic they wouldn't have to gate it so heavily to keep people playing for the same amount of time.

The reason why PvP is so easy, is because you don't kill bosses for drops (not counting Sha/TB/Vault). The entirety of PvP Progression is "get points for killing players" which sounds right. You do PvP, you get points. You use points to buy armor and weapons.

PvE, however, is more complicated than that. People want fat lewtz out of killing bosses, right? That sounds sensible. However, bosses don't drop enough gear to keep everybody happy, AND there's too much RNG. You need to fill, what, 15 slots on your character sheet and there's 5 people in a heroic dungeon group. That's 75 slots to fill if my quick math is working properly.

But yet if you gear people TOO fast, then the content seems trivial and too easy. So they added a point system so that people are guaranteed to get SOMETHING even if it isn't gear.

In Vanilla, you had complaints "I ran xxxxxx and got nothing!" then they tried the badges and it was "OMG, it takes 90 badges for gear? GAH!" and now we have Justice/Valor, it was "It is kinda stupid you can run dungeons and just buy gear... what's the point of boss drops?"

So what exactly are they supposed to do to fix PvE?

Like I said, the current model is closer to the goal -- but still not perfect. Best thing we can do is come up with suggestions and ways to improve it and hope Blizz sees it and improves upon it.

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 4:07pm by Lyrailis

Theoretically gear through VP rewards should be attained slower than from loot drops off bosses. If it's still too quick for Blizz's sensibilities they should have just lowered the weekly point cap. Instead we have... this. (imagine a disgusted look on my face)

BTW if a simple system is ok for pvp why is something similar not ok for pve? The old system (mostly) worked. The only issue appeared to be that rep gains using tabards was too lol (and that's arguable - some people preferred it and most didn't care).

PS The main (and first) issue with badges was that you were getting cutting edge pve loot from lower teir raids like Kara (which we nicknamed badgazan). '90 badges for Sunwell level gear? Sweet!'

PPS The current model isn't anywhere near any sort of goal. You have a situation where the majority of players are somewhere between '**** no!' and 'meh even though it sucks I'll deal with it.'

One thing that Blizz has said is that they don't like "Double-Dipping", which is throwing a tabard on, earning rep rewards through doing dungeons, earning drops off of bosses through dungeons, and then buying JP/VP gear with JP/VP you got by doing dungeons.

Therefore, Dungeons = The Only Thing You Do.

Blizz WANTS us to do Dailies AND Dungeons. They want us to do multiple different things to gear up our characters. You can gear up by just dailies, easily. You can gear up by doing JUST dungeons.... if it weren't for LFR's lame looting system, that is.

Hence why I stress that LFR loot is one of the huge problems with this model. It is the thing that prevents people from gearing up solely from dungeons.

What Blizz WANTED was for the people who do dungeons AND dailies to reap extra rewards from their efforts in both aspects of endgame WoW. They wanted you to be able to gear up from solely dailies and solely dungeons to give people a choice.

However.... LFR loot kills this whole model. IF LFR geared you better, then their goal would be met.

One thing that Blizz has said is that they don't like "Double-Dipping", which is throwing a tabard on, earning rep rewards through doing dungeons, earning drops off of bosses through dungeons, and then buying JP/VP gear with JP/VP you got by doing dungeons.

Therefore, Dungeons = The Only Thing You Do.

Blizz WANTS us to do Dailies AND Dungeons. They want us to do multiple different things to gear up our characters. You can gear up by just dailies, easily. You can gear up by doing JUST dungeons.... if it weren't for LFR's lame looting system, that is.

Hence why I stress that LFR loot is one of the huge problems with this model. It is the thing that prevents people from gearing up solely from dungeons.

What Blizz WANTED was for the people who do dungeons AND dailies to reap extra rewards from their efforts in both aspects of endgame WoW. They wanted you to be able to gear up from solely dailies and solely dungeons to give people a choice.

However.... LFR loot kills this whole model. IF LFR geared you better, then their goal would be met.

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 4:34pm by Lyrailis

What you described is triple dipping. Simple fix: take away VP from dailies and give them their own non-VP/JP based rewards. Let us spend our JP/VP without doing dailies. No tabards. There. Multiple ways of gearing up.

BTW is the LFR loot problem the same one where people want to see what they don't win? Or is it just that, unlike in a guild run where you're increasingly likely to get a drop (even if Bobby gets the sword this week, I'll get it next week), you could potentially run forever and never win anything? IMO LFR was never intended to replace normal mode raids. We need to get back to the glory days of wrathbabyism with 4 difficulty levels. It worked really well and was reflected in its popularity. Go back to that system and let LFR augment that. 10 man normals could be easy enough to pug and even the most casual of guilds could complete it. Would create less LFR loot drama.

What you described is triple dipping. Simple fix: take away VP from dailies and give them their own non-VP/JP based rewards. Let us spend our JP/VP without doing dailies. No tabards. There. Multiple ways of gearing up.

BTW is the LFR loot problem the same one where people want to see what they don't win? Or is it just that, unlike in a guild run where you're increasingly likely to get a drop (even if Bobby gets the sword this week, I'll get it next week), you could potentially run forever and never win anything? IMO LFR was never intended to replace normal mode raids. We need to get back to the glory days of wrathbabyism with 4 difficulty levels. It worked really well and was reflected in its popularity. Go back to that system and let LFR augment that. 10 man normals could be easy enough to pug and even the most casual of guilds could complete it. Would create less LFR loot drama.

That is a separate issue though.

They want people who do Dungeons _and_ Dailies to Double-Dip. People who do Dungeons and Dailies get extra reward, because they put forth more effort (and they see more of the dev's hard work in the form of the dailies And dungeons). They want Dailies and Dungeons to both be viable, but you get bonuses for doing both. They _want_ you to Double-Dip by doing both. It is supposed to be a bonus.

LFR?

The problem with LFR is that 1). The rewards are too low item level, and 2). You get gear too infrequently from it. There is way too much RNG and there are lots of players who spend lots of coins only to see the same item over and over again, or they only get a peasly 28g from their hard-earned coins.

One idea I had: increasing point gains similar to the buff found in ICC (and DS I guess?). The first week you get x amount of points (very small amount). The 2nd week you get more points per boss than the first week (and so on). By the end of the 'season' you'd be point saturated but that can be solved with a gold conversion and a reset. I suppose this would not only apply to vp gain but also cap. Just a rough idea.

They want people who do Dungeons _and_ Dailies to Double-Dip. People who do Dungeons and Dailies get extra reward, because they put forth more effort (and they see more of the dev's hard work in the form of the dailies And dungeons). They want Dailies and Dungeons to both be viable, but you get bonuses for doing both. They _want_ you to Double-Dip by doing both. It is supposed to be a bonus.

Once you are fully 463 geared there is no reason to do dungeons if you don't do dailies. There is no 'bonus.' If you don't want to do dailies you do dungeons and then you graduate to raids. If you don't do dailies there's no point in doing dungeons. And the grind of dailies isn't to be confused with hard work. If we're going to have that conversation then LFR ought to just be removed outright.

Also the tone of your post basically implies that it's the intention of Blizzard for us to do the dailies and not skimp or ignore them - and I agree. In the past dailies have been more or less optional outside the needed enchants (in BC you needed the rep but you got that from the dungeons themselves). Now they are more or less required (unless you want to cap valor and just stare at it). Any statement made that these are optional feels like BS propaganda.

One thing that Blizz has said is that they don't like "Double-Dipping", which is throwing a tabard on, earning rep rewards through doing dungeons, earning drops off of bosses through dungeons, and then buying JP/VP gear with JP/VP you got by doing dungeons.

Therefore, Dungeons = The Only Thing You Do.

Blizz WANTS us to do Dailies AND Dungeons. They want us to do multiple different things to gear up our characters. You can gear up by just dailies, easily. You can gear up by doing JUST dungeons.... if it weren't for LFR's lame looting system, that is.

Hence why I stress that LFR loot is one of the huge problems with this model. It is the thing that prevents people from gearing up solely from dungeons.

What Blizz WANTED was for the people who do dungeons AND dailies to reap extra rewards from their efforts in both aspects of endgame WoW. They wanted you to be able to gear up from solely dailies and solely dungeons to give people a choice.

However.... LFR loot kills this whole model. IF LFR geared you better, then their goal would be met.

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 4:34pm by Lyrailis

It doesn't work like this though.

Again, my wife is Valor capped. She can tank dungeons and LFR till the end of time. She will never ever see a piece of 489 gear doing this. Because although she's played, she's done stuff in game, she's earned her points, she hasn't played in the specific way she is required to in order to actually use the points she earned. It's not just her either, I know a good number of people in my guild and just around my main server in general who hate dailies and will not do them. They will not have the high end gear that daily-doers have.

The whole system seems ***-backwards; people who DO play this game as an MMO and group up for dungeons/scenarios/etc. are not able to get gear as good as people who play it as a solo game questing around and doing dailies because while, yes, you can get VP in several ways, you are only allowed to actually use it if you've done the dailies.

This is why I just do the dailies and ignore dungeons entirely - simple math really. An hour of dailies gets VP+Rep+cash+vendor fodder+mat farming; an hour of dungeon get VP+some cash. I see no reason to to run a Heroic for 40 VP and some cash when I could be getting so much more doing the dailies.

For myself personally, I want exalted with everybody anyway for all the mounts because that's kind of my thing. I have only Shadopan and Celestials left anyway and figure by the time I get exalted with them I'll just be pretty much "done" with my main. I only need I think 2 pieces of Valor gear to buy anyway so by then I'll be capped out on all reps and gear that I can possibly get on him outside of Real Raiding so doing anything on him will thus be mostly pointless. But then, I play a lot. And I remember how boring and mindless dungeon grinding used to be as well so to me it makes no difference really if I have to grind dungeons or dailies.

As to the point though, ya, I think the current system is pretty messed up even if it doesn't gimp me personally.

As I mentioned before, I think a lot of the problem could be solved if either A) the Valor and Heroic gear were the same level, B) Rep could be gained via either Dailies or Heroics, C) Rep was not needed to purchase Valor gear to begin with, D) Some other idea (like the Rep token thing mentioned above for example) that evened out one's ability to choose what part of the game to do without being shut out of rewards.

I'm not sure i agree that LFR has as big an impact as you do. The gear isn't as good as Valor to begin with, and you can only do it once a week anyway so it's not something you can really grind out. Run it once and pray you get something useful but that's about it for the week.

If you're an ordinary raider, questing gets you close to heroics, drops in normals supplement it, you get a weapon from Proving Grounds if you didn't get one from inscription/Archaeology, etc., you burn JP to fill in the gaps, and a judicious JC trinket/alchemist stone/etc. gets you in. Heroic drops, Sha PuGs, LFR if you're lucky, maybe a piece of crafted gear - gets you in to raids. Once you're into the first tier of normal mode raids, drops bootstrap you to the next tier (ilvl is higher than the next tier's LFR, even) - and as the LP said, you can drop dungeons entirely and focus on dailies. By the time you've despaired of finally ever getting the drop you need to move up - revered with one faction at that point should certainly be possible. You only need to do 13 dailies per day to cap your coins for the week. At that rate, you are at worst revered with your favorite and working on a second by the end of a month (four lockouts). I don't see a four to six lockout gate being a heinous restriction for something that was intended to be a gap filler in the first place.

If you're seriously progression-minded - well, extraordinary measures is what you signed up for. That's why it's prestigious, because it means that you not only had the skill to close the deal but the commitment to do whatever it took to get to that point.