Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.

Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.

Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?

Bingo.

I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think you make particularly good points about things being definitive in Catholicism and unclear in Orthodoxy. I will (hopefully) come back tomorrow and post a bit more, but for right now I'll provide a couple quotes from Noonan. I no longer have the book in question, so I'm stuck with what little I typed into a notepad file, but fwiw here's what I found that might be relevant...

Quote

"'Contraception is a term which could be applied to any behavior that prevents conception. Sexual continence is contraceptive in effect; sexual intercourse when an ovum will not be fertilized avoids procreation as much as intercourse where a physical barrier is used to prevent the meeting of spermatozoa and ovum." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 1

"In addition to these three chemical or mechanical ways of blocking conception, there was belief in a sterile period for women... Indeed, the first of the several contraceptive measures which Soranos prescribes is avoidance of 'sexual intercourse at those periods which we said were suitable for conception' (Gynecology 1.19.61)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 16

"The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

"...once married, one may not avoid children. It is lawless and shameful to lie with one's wife where the conception of offspring is avoided: 'This is what Onan, the son of Juda, did, and God killed him for it.' You may marry to give an outlet to your incontinence, 'but you ought not to temper your evil so that you exterminate the good of marriage, that is, the propagation of children' (Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 2, 12, 12)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 137

Cheers My Friend,

I was definitely aware of Augustine teaching, though on sexual matters he is one of the harshest Fathers, including casting quite a harsh glance at relations when the women is pregnant, or when a couple is elderly.

I remember reading an article a while ago, about the Patristics on this matter and they also almost exclusively used Augustine, that is why I was curious if other Fathers weighed in on the matter.

It is important to remember though that while NFP is often sold as "just as good or better then ABC" by those obnoxious pseudo apostles of NFP in the Roman Catholic Church the fact remaining is this, it is absolutely possible to become pregnant while using NFP, and that if it is being done for the avoidance of children as the primary end not the avoidance of some evil (Desitituion, forced abortion, a women in frail health) then it is still a grave/mortal sin.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biro!

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.

Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biro!

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.

God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

I can't tell whether you're serious or not. Since it's Christmas, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Ho ho ho!

Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

If you do, I'll be with you, biro!

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.

God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

How about the exact quote and source.

J Michael beat me to the punch; however, this paraphrase has upset 2 of the female members of the board who are (or were) connected to the Catholic Church

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

and yes his body is still incorrupt to this day.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad).

It is not a sin if a person tries to have children naturally and cannot.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.

"Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation. St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad).

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation. St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

I disagree with you. For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15 Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

As far as the Church Fathers go

"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1-4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps.”

Augustine, Against Faustus, 15:7, A.D. 400

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with His laws? Yet such turpitude. The matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks."

"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with His laws? Yet such turpitude. The matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks."

John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 24, A.D. 391

I'm not a big fan of contraception myself or anything but there were no oral contraceptives like the pill in antiquity. I don't think that the technology was advanced far enough to meddle with hormones. The "medicines of sterility" more likely refers to abortifacients and that's why St. John Chrysostom says "murder before birth".

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

and yes his body is still incorrupt to this day.

It is a grave/mortal sin to abuse NFP, it is a grave/mortal sin to use artificial birth control, it is even a grave/mortal sin to refuse the martial act if your spouse makes a reasonable request for it (reasonable request requiring sufficient privacy, each person in a proper state of mind (not drunk for example), and their health is not bad).

It is not a sin if a person tries to have children naturally and cannot.

Thanks for posting the original and the context--perhaps had you done so in your original post the 2 female members here who appeared to be upset by your "paraphrase" would not have been.

It is also important, I think, to add (if I dare to presume to do so) to what St. John Viannay wrote, that if a woman repented, through the Sacraments, of previously not bringing children into the world, either through contraception or abortion, when she was capable of doing so, her sin would be forgiven and she would not be condemned to hell. But all of that would be between her, her confessor, and God--not us.

It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing. To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."

Well, I'm going to Hell.

Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

"Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1864

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation. St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

I disagree with you. For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell? It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.

Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15 Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques. Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation. St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

I disagree with you. For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell? It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.

Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15 Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques. Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).

My understanding is that IVF is frowned upon as being immoral by the Catholic Church. How does the OC view it?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" :He comforted , my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it." The Cure'D'Ars St. Jean-marie Vianney by Abbe Francis Trochu pg 311-312

Thank you for the citation. St. Father Vianney was giving his own personal opinion for there's nothing in Scripture or Patristics to support that women who deliberately don't have children will go to hell.

I disagree with you. For a married women to intentionally avoid children while enjoying the pleasure of the martial act is to at least violate the scriptures in two places.

We could argue semantics - I was thinking of what happened if a married woman chose not to have sex, would she go to hell? It's more complicated when contraception and abortion are introduced.

Matthew 25, sexuality is a "talent" permitted to married people, to help build up Gods Kingdom on earth, to avoid the primary end of marriage (which the fathers say is the procreation of children) would be a grave sin.

and also "Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:15 Which clearly and states that a married women is saved through fidelity to this duty of childbearing.

Not every woman can bear children via "natural" techniques. Just as there is contraception and abortion, there's also In-vitro Fertilization (IVF).

My understanding is that IVF is frowned upon as being immoral by the Catholic Church. How does the OC view it?

Quote

The Orthodox view will always be to consult with one's priest, spiritual father and/or bishop to receive adequate spiritual guidance and moral strength.

Does anyone remember this scene in the book Pierced by a Sword ... a Mormon dies and sees a light far off. As he gets closer he realizes that the light is actually the fires of hell, and a demon greets him with the words, Contraceptives have made you mine. He replies, I didn't know it was wrong.

Filioque - whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the SonPapal Infallibility - Catholics say the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, Orthodox deny this.Papal Supremacy - Does the Pope have Universal Jurisdiction? Catholics say yes, Orthodox say no.

These are the big three. There are some more but they usually have less substance.

The pope is only infallible speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals......

Yes, that's so but I thought that was obvious. He isn't claiming infallibility when doing maths.

Actually, "speaking ex-cathedra on faith and morals" is redundant. "Faith and morals" is one of the conditions entailed in "ex cathedra".

To Catholicism there's only one real difference between the two sides that can't be explained away: what I call the scope of the Pope. Is his office divinely instituted to govern the whole church and teach for the church on faith and morals? Both sides believe the church is infallible; papal infallibility is a subset of church infallibility. Both sides believe the episcopate is divinely instituted (the bishops are successors to the apostles). But is the Pope's office, Bishop of Rome, just a man-made application for that divinely instituted episcopate, like the Bishop of Scranton or as the Orthodox believe about all their patriarchates? The last is what I think Orthodoxy teaches. (Orthodoxy doesn't per se hate the Pope! It venerates pre-schism Pope saints as Popes. As Ware wrote, in Orthodoxy a special place belongs to the Pope.)

Catholicism says sacramentally the two sides are the same but with that big difference, an inch wide but infinitely deep, they are on parallel tracks. Union is zero-sum; one side has to cave on that Pope issue. Since both sides claim to be the one true church, of course strict Orthodox rail against ecumenism.

The rest of it's either explainable (the filioque, purgatory*) or discipline not doctrine. Before the mid-1900s, being against contraception wasn't 'just a Catholic thing'; it was generally Christian. About it, most Orthodox now sound like mainline Protestants did in the '50s and evangelicals do now: plausible, cautious and conservative (for married couples only and only for good reasons; ask your pastor). Rome holds the line.

Beyond that? I'll stick to something not controversial here. I think we can agree that Rome made a huge mistake by trying to modernize its services in the '60s, making its liturgy more Protestant, less like the Orthodox. The professional theologians' claims, that the Second Vatican Council moved Rome closer to you, are, obvious to any visitor to each church, false. The older Mass (Latin Mass, Tridentine Mass) is obviously more like the Orthodox Liturgy. It's the preferred rite for Western Rite Orthodox! (That and orthodoxified versions of Anglican services. At first, the late 1800s, it was the only Western service the post-schism Orthodox approved for use.)

I think the Roman Rite in antiquity was probably simpler and duller than the '50s Mass. Around 1000 there was a reform in the Roman Rite in which much was copied from the more flowery Gallican Rite, which in turn was influenced by Eastern rites. So that and the many beliefs in common (priest, sacrifice made presence, Real Presence in the holy Gifts/Communion) explain the 'family resemblance' between '50s Catholicism and Orthodoxy. (Why a number of Roman Rite Catholics have taken refuge in Eastern Catholic churches.)

Orthodoxy to its lasting credit has kept alive a grassroots folk religion naturally resistant to wholesale changes ordered from the top, like the 'Reformation' or Vatican II. Historically Western Catholicism worked much like that too. (The Pope was actually a distant figure people didn't much think about.) Something the West should relearn from you.

*I'm not a credentialed theologian but 'from the Father through the Son', and prayer for the dead supposes an intermediate state. Orthodox enthusiastically pray for the dead. Purgatorial fire's not doctrine.

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

I've heard that Catholic Church used the doctrine of pugatory to make money in late Medieval.People can suffer less in pugatory fire if they donate more money to church.

How about 'Jesus ransoms us from Father'? Was this whole concept completely formed in late Medieval?

And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?

No. There is no "Jesus ransoms us from Father" that I know of. St. Paul talks about the crucifixion paid as a ransom to death, IIRC. And no, there is no Orthodox Church father teaching that the Father is some sort of psychopath that has to be appeased by a divine whipping boy in order to love us again. That is not Christian at all and frankly is blasphemous.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

Nice try, but no cigar. No mention of materiality or created nature of the fire.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.

And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.

The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church). Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.

However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates" here is some info on them from an orthodox websitehttp://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates

In the West, IIRC, indulgences did not begin by being sold. They were originally part of the penance system whereby a person says a prayer and can have his penance reduced--this before the general RC teaching on purgatory began.

And what references we have of "absolution certificates" being sold in the east is sketchy. My understanding is that it was not a universal practice. It's certainly not traditional.

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