Sahis, my apologies, i thought you meant Seguin and Hamilton both (on their own) were more valuable, not as a pair. You've now cleared that up, and i see your point and it does make some sense. I'm sure there's a few like you mentioned who would be worth more, but i get what you were trying to say.

Bet you cant wait for the season to start Bean's. Love that the bets for your avatar, signature and such has lasted this long.

Only about 5 days left Beans. You really got screwed with that lockout, even though it's been awfully quiet around here because of it!

Guest9281 ( )

Posted - 05/16/2013 : 09:38:52

In the first time we could compare this trade directly when it mattered most, Toronto won this trade. Kessel with 6 points compared to 1 point for Seguin and Hamilton combined. Kessel was a force in this series while Seguin and Hamilton struggled. Hopefully this ends this debate.

In the first time we could compare this trade directly when it mattered most, Toronto won this trade. Kessel with 6 points compared to 1 point for Seguin and Hamilton combined. Kessel was a force in this series while Seguin and Hamilton struggled. Hopefully this ends this debate.

Uhhhmm....you do know the results of that series don't you? It's been bandied about by more than a few posters to date.

The results of a trade, in my opinion, would be to improve the team. Not sure if one can say anyone 'won' that trade yet, Toronto made a heroic run at the Bruins, but in the end are still golfing early. I would think if anything, this trade helped both teams, making it more of a draw than anyone's 'win'.

Guest4350 ( )

Posted - 05/16/2013 : 10:27:56

quote:Originally posted by fat_elvis_rockedUhhhmm....you do know the results of that series don't you? It's been bandied about by more than a few posters to date.

The results of a trade, in my opinion, would be to improve the team. Not sure if one can say anyone 'won' that trade yet, Toronto made a heroic run at the Bruins, but in the end are still golfing early. I would think if anything, this trade helped both teams, making it more of a draw than anyone's 'win'.

Or until Seguin and Hamilton do something that helps Boston advance beyond this round. Which is what they have the opportunity to do. Whereas Phil is golfing.

Seguin worked his tail off for that one assist and it turned out to be on the series clinching goal. He's also some 5 odd years younger than Kessel so lets see what he's doing in the playoffs when he's Phil's age.

Not to take anything away from Kessel he is a great player and pure goal scorer. However, I think long term Boston still wins this trade by a mile.

I can't believe we are still discussing this trade all these years later. Boston with great contributions from Seguin won the cup. Boston and Seguin beat Toronto many, many years later in the playoffs. Boston has spent less on Seguin during this time and has prospects out the wazzo thanks to Toronto, which 3 years later has finally acheived a miracle, a playoff appearance.

I maintain Seguin, Hamilton and any other player received during this trade won. Boston was able to maintain cap space to maintain success which to me was a win on its own, while Toronto has just now recovered from this trade 3 years later and still fell short of Boston in the post season. Proof is in the pudding my friends.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

I can't believe we are still discussing this trade all these years later.

Really? That was the big talk 'round these parts going into the series. Simplified, of course, to Kessel v. Seguin. Kinda surprised nobody brought it up earlier, to be honest. Toronto media is, once again, going overboard to find the silver lining.

No more "choke" headlines. Now it's "Wow! Look what we did! Imagine what we can do next year! Look how everybody has improved so much! Nowhere to go but up!"

Good for the Leafs for taking Boston to 7. Good experience for the young 'uns. What lies ahead for this team is still up in the air. Nothing was defined in round 1 except maybe that 'choke' thing.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.

Guest2626 ( )

Posted - 05/17/2013 : 07:52:48

you cant grade the deal on one playoff series which Boston won by the way.

One or two players does not a Cup make. Even the great Waynge Gretzky and Bobby Orr struggles and did not win Cups without a strong supporting cast.

Kessel, Seguin, and Hamilton are all key pieces to a supporting cast needed to win a Cup. I too, don't agre this trade can be measured today. If you had to, it's really tough. You have Kessel in one hand as a legit top 10-15 scorer in the league. In the other hand, you have two very promising stars in the making that are contributing to their teams today at a very reasonable salary cap hit.

We will see next summer when Kessel's deal is up. If he leaves TO, the trade will be Boston's. If he stays and the Leafs continue to grow and develop, it will likely be a closer debate.

Ultimately, both teams got what they wanted. The Leafs got a legit and elite scorer. Boston got great young talent at an affordable price. The question is less about this trade as both teams 'won' in getting what they wanted. The question is what is worth more?? An elite scorer or potentially two stud players??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Guest9848 ( )

Posted - 05/17/2013 : 18:37:33

Maybe I don't watch enough Boston games to judge but I don't see what the hype about Seguin is, ya he had a great first season but since then he hasn't really done much and everytime i seem him play he dosnt seem to do anything special.

People talk about kessel as if he is an older player . This guy is still really young too. ( in my opinion ) kessel is still getting better all the time and still has not reached his peak.....of course Seguin hasn`t either.

Both are talented guys, but these two facts have to, at the very least, be noted by any Kesseltradoligist:

1. At a key moment in the playoffs in his 1st year, TS came through2. At a key moment in the playoffs in his 3rd year, TS came through

Moreover, I think any Kesseltradoligist could also probably infer from both the above and other factors that Peter Chiarelli is not madly searching for a time machine in order to go back to mid-September 2009 to undo "the trade."

Guest2762 ( )

Posted - 05/19/2013 : 06:31:00

What will Leaf nation have to say if Kessel does not resign. Not saying it is going to happen, but all have to agree its possible. Im sure hes not going to take a discount to stay.

Guest9848 ( )

Posted - 05/19/2013 : 09:21:13

I don't know why Kessel would wanna stay with the way some of the fans in Toronto treat him, when the fans of your team constantly talk about you like you were the worst trade ever while your working hard and scoring for them why would you wanna keep working for them when they aren't appreciating what you do for the team

I don't know why Kessel would wanna stay with the way some of the fans in Toronto treat him, when the fans of your team constantly talk about you like you were the worst trade ever while your working hard and scoring for them why would you wanna keep working for them when they aren't appreciating what you do for the team

What i don't get, is the fact that i actually don't hear a lot of Leaf fans complain about this deal. Granted, i don't have a ton of Leaf friends here in Vancouver, but on this site and others, i see more Leafers defending this deal by a big margin than those dissing it. It's us non Leafers who think Boston won this hands down. So, anyone in Leafland out there wanna come clean with what the attitude has been in the TO area over the last few years since the deal? I'm not talking today when Leafers are pleased at Kessel finally doing something vs Boston, i'm talking since the deal was made!

Not a Leafer, obviously, but I would describe it as 'guarded optimism'. Most seem to agree that the Jury is still out. Certain statistics may skew the argument, but who wouldn't cling to what they have, rather than what they coulda'?

As an Oilers' fan, I enjoy the fact that we picked Hall above Seguin. Obviously, even Phil Kessel has had much more playoff success than Hall (i.e. Hall has zero games), but,, chances are, TS would have no playoff experience had the Oil picked him.

Time will tell who is on pace for an upswing. Nobody knows if any of these three will have a HOF career.

As an aside, though Kessel may have been more productive throughout the series, nobody can deny it was a coaching battle in which Carlyle did admirably, but lost to Julien.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.

Guest9848 ( )

Posted - 05/20/2013 : 07:46:51

I live in Toronto and listening to the fan 590 I constantly hear Leafs fans calling in and complaining about Kessel and the trade, not as much as they complain about Phaneuf however.

Guest7752 ( )

Posted - 05/21/2013 : 14:33:14

quote:Originally posted by Guest9281

In the first time we could compare this trade directly when it mattered most, Toronto won this trade. Kessel with 6 points compared to 1 point for Seguin and Hamilton combined. Kessel was a force in this series while Seguin and Hamilton struggled. Hopefully this ends this debate.

You waited for now to make up your mind and then END THE DEBATE !!!Where have you been the part 2-3 years?If you're going to tally-up numbers - start from the beginning.GEEZ....

In the first time we could compare this trade directly when it mattered most, Toronto won this trade. Kessel with 6 points compared to 1 point for Seguin and Hamilton combined. Kessel was a force in this series while Seguin and Hamilton struggled. Hopefully this ends this debate.

You waited for now to make up your mind and then END THE DEBATE !!!Where have you been the part 2-3 years?If you're going to tally-up numbers - start from the beginning.GEEZ....

This thread has gone from "insane" to "epic" to "ridiculous". It's like a Leviathon. Just when you think it has gone away, it comes back strong than ever before.

Guys, Toronto won this trade. I've said as much from the very beginning. Meanwhile, FatElvis and Beans have been sputtering poetic about Seguin's skating ability. Which is great. But, it doesn't win the debate.

There is an old adage in Hockey Trading: Whoever gets the best player in the deal wins the trade.

Phil Kessel is best player here. Therefore, Toronto wins the trade. Good night, have a nice sleep, thanks for coming out.

Now, we certainly are NOT going to use the playoffs as proof of this - a sample of 7 games is too short.

But, can we use the regular season? I mean, please? Does anyone actually read any statistics before posting on here??

Phil Kessel: 20G, 32A, 52Pts, 4GWGs, 161SOG. On a tear to end the season - 41 points in his final 32 games (including playoffs). Comparable stats: Eric Staal.

89 goals since the trade, 109 assist since the trade, 198 points since the trade.

Since the trade 7 games of playoff experience, 6 points, 1ppg, 2gwg

If you toss out the rookie campain where Seguin only received decent playing time towards the post season, although he was an incredible player who helped them win the cup, the stats for the last 2 seasons are closer. Both are similar in goal totals the last 2 years, while Kessel has the edge on assists this year by a large margin. If you look at the dreaded +/- numbers nobody really pays attention to anymore, you will see Seguin has a huge lead here. I don't think anyone is arguing Kessel isn't the more Dynamic offensive player than Seguin, but from Bostons perspective, they have played Seguin and the remainder of what they received in at least 30 playoff games, in all situations, won the cup and knocked the Leafs out of the playoffs the 1st time they faced them in the post season, since the trade. All the while they got good 2way play (not Kessel's specialty) and paid less for the services. Toronto got the scorer they were looking for, but paid a heavy price which may have cost them years of post season play and the 1st time they matched up with the B post season, Seguin assists on the point that send Toronto to the golf course early. If this was a Mastercard commercial, this is where you cue the (Priceless)

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

So who won the Eric Lindros trade?? I mean, Philly got the best player right?? But Colorado did get some guy name Forsberg, Hextall, Simon, Duchene, Huffman, 2-1st rounders, and $15 million in cash.

Eric Lindros is the best player in the group althoug Forsberg is a close second. But do you really think that Philly won that trade?? I don't!

Also, maybe we should take a look at Seguin at the same point in his career as Phil Kessel. Let's look, shall we??

Seguin through 3 seasons played 203 games and scored 56 goals and 65 assists for 121 pts and a +53 rating playing for Boston

Kessel, through 3 seasons, played 222 games and scored 66 goals and 60 assists for 126 pts and a +5 rating playing for Boston.

You say that Kessel is only 25 and as a smaller player will likely peak around 30. So I guest Seguin is not a small players and is not 4 yrs younger than Kessel and isn't about the same size??

So assessing the trade, straight up Kessel for Seguin, it's pretty close. Some could argue that Kessel is a more dynamic scorer and more of an offensive threat. Others would argue that Seguin is a better all around player and has now been clutch in the playoffs on more than one occasion.

But wait, I forgot there is this Hamilton kid who is looking pretty good too.

I don't agree that a) Toronto did get the best players as the jury is still out and b) that the team who gets the best player wins the trade. Especially when one team got to good to arguable great players compared to the other team getting one player.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Beans, bad example imo. As far as i'm concerned, Forsberg was the best player in that deal!!! As far as that "old adage" goes, it's garbage and we could look at many deals that would prove it. When do you claim "the best player" for example? How about 5 years from now and Seguin is a 100pt guy and Kessel a 40/40 guy? Is Kessel still the best. What if the Leafs traded Lupul to the Canucks for Tom Sestito and the Canucks next 10 first rounders? Do the Canucks really win this deal because Lupul is the best player, or do we wait to see what the 10 draft picks turn out to be???

Regardless, Crock has made this look like a Kessel for Seguin deal when it obviously wasn't! Unfortunately for the Leafs, Seguin is a young talented centerman and that is exactly what the Leafs need! Throw in a potential stud dman and another player and.....wait, wait just a sec, we've got 9 pages of this crap already.....

Beans, why can`t you just accept the truth....right now Phil kessel is the BETTER player in this deal...accept it....he may always be the better player in this deal.....look at his stats ....not only is kessel an elite goal scorer, he is a superb playmaker, his passes are perfect, tape to tape....this player is a star by NHL standards, until Seguin proves it...he is NOT !!! So for you and all other leaf haters.....Deal With IT...

You once posted that the kessel deal was one of the worst NHL deals of all time...for the leafs, what a joke !!!

With regards to the kessel deal......why do you bring up nonsense about the Lindros vs Forsberg deal ???.....is this some kind of twisty - turney...mumbo - jumbo to throw off the facts of the kessel deal ??...ain`t gonna work my friend....again, kessel is an NHL star player.....Boston DID NOT...rip the leafs off on this deal, leafs got a great YOUNG player.

If this was the Rask for Raycroft deal....Toronto got ripped off big time, this deal makes me sick...dumb - a$$ J.F.J, no wonder he got fired.

Beans, you say the flyers received the best player in the Lindros / Forsberg deal......i say you are WRONG again....in my opinion Peter Forsberg was a better player, year in and year out than Eric Lindros ever was.

Not only was Forsberg a much better player on the ice, ( in my opinion ) his leadership abilities, hockey knowledge and complete package combination made him one of the all time greats to ever lace them up.

Peter Forsberg with his combination of goal scoring, play-making, defensive play, skating ability, toughness, leadership, cycling ability, loved the corners........made him as close as you can get to the perfect hockey player.

Yah, just deal with it, like Duke said. Except Bean's and myself have made valid points which you and the guests are giving no validity to because that is your point of view. I for one would rather the cap friendly entry level deal for the player with post season experience, similar goal totals and 2way game over the $5million+ a year contract on Kessel with his 1 dimensional game, especially if you add all the other prospects and intangibles of the deal (ie, stanley cup win on the back of Seguins stellar play). Remind me, wasn't Kessel also injured at that point in his career and Toronto not only sacrificed that season, but the next 2 more chasing a superstar when they could have built depth sooner. Depth wins playoff rounds my friend. Took Toronto 3 years to reach the post season to fall short to the depth provided to the Bruins thru this deal. I am gonna bet you that management in Boston has no regrets from this deal.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "