UberDave:They're saying all this started because of Boris Vallejo? Ok...I can see that.

and Ironically, Boris drew the male form just as scantily clad and unrealisitic as the female one. His male models were the professional body builders who hung out in Venice beach, including a young pre-Mr. Universe Arnold Schwarzenegger. There is a reason Arnie looks like he was born to play Conan

FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.

Theaetetus:I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc... So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Theaetetus:I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc... So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Disposable Rob:FTA: "I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."

While understand the intent, an overweight 38-year-old guy is always going to look ridiculous emulating anything a perfectly proportioned, 20-something woman is doing, even if it's sitting at a table eating cereal. This doesn't prove anything.

This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."

WinoRhino:This reminds me of a moment in high school history class 25 or so years ago. A friend of mine used to draw absolutely amazing fantasy D&D type drawings, usually featuring scantily-clad females. One time the teacher walked by, saw one of the sketches, and said "You know, I hate to break it to you but real women don't ever look like that." And he replied, "That's kind of the point."

This was drawn by a female friend of mine. She likes female characters to be sexy (and she's not a lesbian). People shouldn't assume that women don't want fantasy (or game) characters to be attractive.

Magorn:Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: serial_crusher: I was always a fan of this one.[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

Looking at that, I think we can agree that the original idealizes the male body as well...chest, muscles, etc... So, point of order, it is doubly sexist.

But the way they're idealized is different... Women in fantasy art are frequently posed in submissive or sexualized positions, butt towards the viewer, off balance, etc.:[3.bp.blogspot.com image 850x1267]

Holy shiat! You mean that in our fantasy we want men to be powerful warriors that are forces to be reckoned with and our damsels to be sexy? Young men want to be white knights and the princess they rescue to be as beautiful as she is grateful? Let's face it. No one is going to risk life and limb to rescue an uggo. That is why only cute women that go missing make the news!

This is outrageous! Everyone knows that no woman ever, like 0.0%, ever pictured themselves as the damsel in distress and a powerful and courageous man coming to save her. Women do not pretend to be princesses, hell, they don't even like princesses, which accounts for the universal hatred of Diana.

When will the world realize that there are no differences between the wants and motivations of men and women and no need for different marketing techniques that apply to them separately?

serial_crusher:I was always a fan of this one.[rawrgg.com image 720x377]

I was always impressed by that one with Psylocke jumping down on someone with something that looks like a weird 3rd leg sticking up. Can't find a copy of it at the moment, but I'm sure someone will provide.

To be honest, I stopped caring after it was pointed out that it's impossible to draw a sexually appealing woman without being sexist, because being sexually appealing is inherently submitting to the male desires that define sexual appeal (or something similar - the derp level in that class had gotten so far that I sort of zoned out).

So if it's impossible anyway, then who cares? Draw and enjoy what appeals to you, and everyone else can go fark themselves if they don't like it.

Actual literary Sci-Fi and Fantasy do no such thing. However, pulp subgenre books for every genre will do literally anything to catch the casual viewer's eye and get them to pick the book up. Some of the worst offenders are actually Detective/Mystery novels, even the ones ostensibly written for women.

Here's the difference:

Hard SciFi cover (space opera):

Pulp Scifi cover (space opera)://Though, in all fairness, the pulps have had a large influence on more adult-ish works, so there is some merit to the "it's just a tradition" argument.