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Qualifying… and the future

The good news is that Formula 1 has broken out of the daft situation in which it found itself, with a hopeless and utterly complex qualifying structure that was being hung onto because the powers-that-be did not want to be seen to be defeated. I am not sure that the decision to give up was made because of any great love of the sport and or any desire to protect it, but rather that it happened because those concerned were worried that they were eroding their own credibility – which was what was happening.

The retreat had the proviso that the FIA and the Formula One group want to re-assess the format of Grand Prix weekends, with a view to introducing changes in 2017. The logic behind this is simple. They want to keep race promoters and TV companies happy by providing them with more of a show than traditional qualifying procedures. The pursuit of this goal had taken them off into wildly complicated schemes that were virtually impossible to explain to the public.

Simplicity is often the best and most elegant answer and there is, therefore, a lot to be said for the idea of having a qualifying race on the Saturday of a Grand Prix weekend. Races are complex things if you want them to be, but if you simply want to watch a race and see who wins, without worrying yourself about strategies, then you can. Qualifying races have been used in the past and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with them, so long as the ring masters don’t try to introduce artificial elements, such as reversing the top eight, as happens in GP2. This means that some drivers win races that they do not deserve to win because they won pole position by finishing eighth.

For the sport to be credible and escape claims of manipulation, the fastest man and the fastest machine should win – if they do a perfect job. If the car breaks down or the driver crashes then he suffers for it. A qualifying race would add excitement for the crowd, the opportunity for more TV coverage and it would also make Friday more important as there would be value in the qualifying to set the grid for Saturday, rather than two meaningless free practice sessions as is the case today.

The key element I think is that qualifying races should not involve World Championship points of any kind. They should exist simply to decide the grid order. There are plenty of other questions such as the distances of the two races and whether there should be pit stops and so on, but as a concept I think it would spice up a race weekend.

It is clear that as the formula matures, there is convergence in terms of the relative competitiveness of the different teams. This is a good thing and rule changes serve only the increase the gaps again, giving the advantage to those with the most money. The only way to negate the money question is to have spending limits that everyone has to adhere to. These are entirely policeable and would be self-policing because no serious player could risk being caught cheating.

It would also be a bit like the NCAP crash-tests that were opposed by the car manufacturers until they realised that the safety rating of their cars could be used as a selling point. If one is winning F1 races, spending the same as the opposition, the victory has more value than if it is achieved by having more cash. If there were spending limits in F1 the sport would be more cost-effective and thus one would probably see more manufacturers interested in taking part.

You could just use the finishing order of the last race … you know – simplicity!

And if this means that a driver wins every race because he always starts from pole (or the front) then so be it.
F1 is the only Sport I know where the owners and rule makers try to punish teams that do well.

In any other sport event, dominance is an acceptable part (though TV viewing figures may suffer from time to time …)

A number of US sports, notably the hugely successful and profitable NFL, seek to reduce long term dominance by giving the teams at the bottom first pick of the new players entering the sport at the start of each season. The current top teams are punished by having fewer good players to pick from.

You don’t know much then. NFL was mentioned below. In Touring Cars there is ballast for the teams that do too well. In WRC, the current championship leader starts in a disadvantageous position. In Speedway, better drivers start up to 3/4s of a lap back, depending on their results in past seasons/races.

While I agree that the qualify race would be more interesting to watch I also have to admit that the Saturday is only a day I’d watch if I have time. I am not sure how many people can spend the whole weekend watching the race. So I am not convinced that it would do something for the ratings.

I would also assume that more costs would be involved as the wear and tear for parts during a (sprint)race would be substantially higher then a few runs on Saturday.

There used to be plenty of track action when I was attending GP weekends. I remember seeing the Renault Espace F1 on track once, another year the Ford Transit F1, with plenty of other races to watch as well inc F3000, 911 GT3s, historics etc etc. You had to time your toilet and food breaks so as not to miss something! Plus there was so much to do around the track. Get back to those days and you won’t have to worry too much about messing with the traditional F1 weekend!

Bring back the BMW M1 Procars! For those who don’t know, BMW supplied a field of “identical” M1 sports cars for a supporting race at European GPs in 1979/1980. Professional sports car drivers had some seats and F1 drivers filled the others. They were all racing for “fun” and pride ($5,000 for a win) guaranteeing action on the track.

The firms which built the M1 Procars — BS Fabrications, Project Four Racing and Osella — used the BMW money to support their racing. It was a good result for everyone — including fans.

If we are to have qualifying races – and I think we should – why not select a non-F1 ‘qualifying car’? All 22 drivers in a neutral, identical car, to see who is genuinely the fastest? An Ariel Atom, Radical RXC500, BAC Mono – an actual track car, that isn’t affiliated to any of the F1 teams? The drivers would then revert to their team cars for the race proper. No points, but a huge selling point for the Saturday. Friday practice to continue as normal.

What effect would a Saturday race have on the number of engines needed and the mileage each engine has to endure. Surely this kind of weekend format change is the kind of thing the engine manufacturers would need to know now if it’s to be feasible in 2017.

I’d only be keen on a qualifying race if it’s done properly, as Joe said no daftness like reversing the top 8 and the quali race starting order MUST be decided fairly, i.e. best time from practice. I suspect however if the quali race is done it will be a mess, I just hope they don’t go down the road of where the driver finished in the last race, then some sort of reversing in the quali race. Go down the KISS (Keep it simple stupid) route and it could work. Also it would need to be a short race, firstly not to detract from the main race and secondly to make it more frantic (which in turn could make it more exciting than the main even which would cause problems).

I remember the one shot quali which didn’t work because the order was based on the finishing of the last race, so usually if you did badly in the race your next quali was compromised, so you again did less well in the race and again are in the wrong place for quali for the following race. The only time it was mixed up was due to weather, which just made it a lottery and not a good way to decide starting order!

The one-shot quali also had the problem that a Saturday sprint race does – that a single mistake or a technical problem on the Saturday torpedoed your chances for the main point-paying event.

There’s a degree of random chance which doesn’t actually make things any more interesting. Much as wildly shuffled grids are fun, it’s also nice to see a top driver fluff his lines once and then pull out a stunning lap under immense pressure at the end of Q3.

My worry about a sprint race on the Saturday would just be that it risks being as long and yet more dull than current qualifying. Somewhere like Monaco, the grid for the Saturday Sprint becomes all important, so all you’d do is push the issue elsewhere to, what, the practice sessions?

Frankly I’d still be quite happy to leave qualifying as it is. If you really want to mess with it, I’d prefer a handicap system – to be achieved either by a weight handicap (which would still leave cars in the same weight range they’re designed for, it would be less than gp-start fuelling) or lowering the limit on the max fuel flow rate on their engines during quali.

Complicated? Perhaps. Artificial? Yes. But a way to rein in those who dominate while still allowing them to prove how good they truly are.

Since 2004 the Macau Grand Prix has had a 10 lap qualification race on Saturday which decides the grid positions for the 15 lap Grand Prix on Sunday. The grid for the qualification race is determined by qualifying sessions on Thursday and Friday afternoons after morning free practice sessions. It works very well and, despite some damaged cars in the qualification race, there are rarely if ever more than a couple of cars missing (out of 30) from the Sunday race grid. I know it’s not Formula 1 but it is the FIA Intercontinental Cup for Formula 3 so the governing body has clearly sanctioned the arrangement. On the assumption that starting on Thursday would be unacceptable for various reasons in F1 circles, why not devote Friday mornings to free practice in two 90 minute segments with 30 minutes between, followed by the current ie 2015 qualifying arrangement on Friday afternoons to decide the grid for a qualification race on Saturday with the finishing order determining the grid for the Grand Prix on Sunday? All cars should start the qualification race on new, unused tyres and there should be no tyre changes unless the track conditions become substantially different. No refuelling, no points for the qualification race and no reverse grids. Race duration perhaps half the GP.

Or how about the teams’ third drivers contesting the qualification race and their finishing positions deciding the grid positions for the first/second drivers on Sunday. This would require two ‘third drivers’ per team but there is plenty of talent available. Just a thought! It might ‘mix things up a bit’.

I thought might produce some interesting results but may not be practical or realistic. How about they give everyone 5-10 minutes to set an initial time, and then the bottom 6 would then have to take part in the rest of the session by doing a series of one lap races where they both start on the SF line, the higher ranked driver goes on the side that would be inside of T1. only the bottom two would participate, so like 22 and 21 would do a one lap race, the loser is out. then 21 and 20 would do a one lap race and the loser is out, keep going until 6 people get knocked out. then the next session begins where everyone has to set a new time again to get a new bottom 6. I think that would have the potential of making qualifying interesting and occasionally mixing up the grid. I felt like the problem with the previous ‘musical chairs’ format is there wasn’t enough time for the next bottom person to react so they just didn’t bother to go out again. here they’re forced to do it

Well I have been banging on about this over the last few months so this in my view is very good news.

Simple solution for me is replace P3 with a qualification session and then have a race in the afternoon. However, they could easily replace P2 with a quali session thus meaning that Friday also has meaning.

“I remember the one shot quali which didn’t work because the order was based on the finishing of the last race, so usually if you did badly in the race your next quali was compromised”

Actually, it helped doing badly in the prior race. That was why Jenson Button was instructed to park his BAR Honda metres from the finishing line (despite being in a points paying position I think!) because it was advantageous to be towards the end of the qualifying ‘queue’ of the next race when more rubber had been laid down on the circuit.

This all comes down to do we want racing or ‘entertainment’. If pure entertainment is the name of the game then let’s forget qualifying altogether and determine start positions by drawing lots, imagine a front row of Manor and Sauber with Hamilton and Vettel having to fight their way through the field.

If racing is the wish then I suggest the old system of a set time with the drivers all on the circuit at the same time everyone trying to do the hot lap that gives them pole. No tyre restrictions, no fuel saving, flat out qualifying with the engines set to 11 !

I quite like the idea of a qualifying race. You could have a reverse grid of the drivers championship. The fastest driver doesn’t necessarily have to win the qualifying race, but just get as far up the grid as possible to give themselves a chance of wining the race on the Sunday when it actually matters.

Had proposed a ‘qualifying race’ a couple years ago on this forum and it was shot down in flames at the time, being described as ‘wacky races’. How times (and perceptions have changed)..

Agree that the format should be simple, stupid and should not contribute towards any WDC points. Current decision makers appear to be unable to help themselves with tinkering with rules in such ways that do nothing for the spectacle and complicate things unnecessarily.

For the starting grid, would like to see the WDC standings in reverse order be used as the starting grid for such a race. That way the WDC leader (the guy normally in the fastest car) would have to overtake every single other competitor over the course of a GP weekend in order to take the chequered flag in P1 (for the first race of the season, use last year’s final standings).

Fri should be left as it is, a practice period that drivers and their teams can use to work on setting the car up properly (to use that as a qualifying session without a car in proper race trim seems to be asking for trouble and inviting undue risk).

A 25 lap (or pick your number, but relatively low) qualifying race on a saturday would be wonderful for the fans and track owners/promoters.

As long as the teams have: Additional tires, additional engines beyond the current 5 unit allotments, and one spare car to offset any heavy damage encountered.

All of course accompanied by a heavy dose of additional funding to the teams to pay for some of the above. Oh, right, if it means CVC digging their fishhook hands into their change purse, we can forget all about a potentially great idea!

I quite like the 2015 system and am pleased it will be restored in time for my visit to the Shanghai grand prix, and I enjoy watching the technical changes being made by teams and driver to bring the best out of the setup.
I also like the idea of a Saturday short race to establish pole position, but it does need to be in an F1 car. The risks of crashing out or a technical issue is the same in qualifying as in a short race, so I see no problem with it.
I would like to include points for the fastest pit stop, it is an integral part of the race and those who get it right should be rewarded, although I concede it probably wouldn’t improve the spectacle of F1.
The idea of punishing those teams who are successful is madness, the whole point of a race is to win and those teams complaining, should get better not bitter.

Maybe it’s my unnatural love of qualifying, but I don’t care much for the idea. It would seem to me that it would make the sunday race a little too straightforward. If Mercedes dominated on Saturday, I may not be convinced to even bother tuning in on Sunday. With the current format, at least there’s a bit more mystery because teams do surprise with race pace on occasion (like Ferrari at Albert Park). You want to make qualifying more exciting, have Pirelli develop a tyre that will operate at its best for more than 1 lap. IndyCar has this with Firestone and driver’s have 2-4 laps on a set of tyres to lay down a flyer.

Do the broadcasters actually want a change or is it just Bernie that has said they do? I can see the Race Promoters would like something different but I imagine the broadcasters rely on their Ad Breaks during Q1, 2 & 3.

If we’re to go with Qualifying Races then I’d like the running order to be completely random. At least that wait it’s fair for everyone. You could have a televised draw 15 minutes before the start, cut to Ad Break and return for a 35-40 minute race. Or go back to One-Shot qualifying but again make the order random and not based on previous results or championship standing.

Crisis times require radical ideas: how about a short qually race where every driver races the same car! That way we’d have the best *driver* in the front, regardless of their team’s budget, etc.

You could use some standard, maybe a last-year’s model with a last-year’s engine, eg for this year they’d all run a 2015 Mercedes in qually: now that would be really exciting, expecially for people like Jenson and Fernando!! .. and you could take a slice from all the previous year’s profits to pay for it.

Friday afternoon Q1 – traditional 1 hour free for all as per the good old days. Because it’s Friday all the cars going out in the final 15 mins would not be a problem for TV. This would mix the grid up nicely as everyone would be on track together towards the end.

Saturday morning P2.

Saturday afternoon Q2 Race – a 45 min sprint race using the grid from Q1 to set the grid for the race proper. No pitting.

Sunday morning 30 mins warm up as per the good old days. Semi ‘parc ferme’ rules to prevent massive car changes and keep costs under control.

Sunday afternoon – race as per normal.

TV viewers and circuit spectators will all get to see a lot of action on each and every day. Race promoters will have something to sell on a Friday. Most TV viewers will be able to watch home recorded Q1 on a Friday night or before the Q2 Race.

How about a 30 minute race on the Saturday (grid place determined by championship position) with points awarded 9-6-4-3-2-1 and the driver’s fastest lap acting as their qualifying lap for the main race?

Just a thought on the idea of a quali race. I think there needs to be a bigger incentive than just the grid position. The danger as I see it is that you are not likely to risk too much if it means you may get demoted down the grid. Think there possibly needs to be half points on offer as well.

Qualifying race would only work if you had cars more capable of “wheel to wheel” racing. Otherwise you will wind up with a short processional race even more boring than current qualifying. Most overtaking occurs in races now because of different fuel settings and different stages of tyre life. In a short race there won’t be time for either of these factors to come into play. Go back to no holds barred qualifying and let the fastest and bravest show how fast and brave they are. That is meant to be a big part of racing isn’t it?

and with extremely few engines and gearboxes per year (to save money) we are then open to any accidents in qualy having a huge impact on that person or team for the rest of the year. We have spent a large amount of $ already re-engineering the gearbox to breakaway at a designed spacer weak point to ensure we save gearbox’s….. to save money. What’s next ?????

With the Hulabaloo around Qualy and going back to 2015 rules I don’t think a pre-race could fly for a few years yet, but it’s the best suggestion yet for a bigger package for the TV stations.

If we’re after something new, how about each team takes turns to put both of its cars on track. The two cars complete their out-lap and then are timed for (say) three laps, the total time over the laps determines the grid position. It’s up to the drivers to sort out the gap between themselves, however, they must cross the line for their first lap within (say) 20 seconds of each other. After they complete their third timed lap, the next two cars start their out-lap. The order of running can be either random, on rotation, connected with championship standings, or the last race.

This would ensure cars are on the track throughout qualifying and that fans at the track can see visually if a car was gaining or falling behind a team mate. It obviously pits team mates directly against each other, which should be fun. It’s a effectively a hybrid of racing against your team mate and the clock.

Obviously, floating an idea is a way of building acceptance/consultation. But before driving towards a qualifying race are there other alternatives proven in other top level motorsport.
Why, for example did Formula E, a new gimmick driven series, chose qualifying – Super pole?
Has FIA actually commissioned a study report on all these different grid selection methods, their pros & cons, with respect to F1?

If you want a qualy race (I don’t know if I’d like it) and you want some entertainment, why not do the following:

Line up in reverse championship standings. Start the race, checkered flag after three laps. The last four over the finish pull into the pits (they’ll form the last two rows on the grand prix grid), the rest line up on the grid again in race order. Another start, another three laps, another four eliminations etc, until there are only two drivers left. The final two line up side-by-side for a single lap that determines the pole position. Lots of spectacle (many standing starts!) and a mixed race grid guaranteed.

Complicated? No, just a number of 3 lap races in quick succession and the last man standing has the pole. Rather straightforward.

Artificial? Yes, it is. But then again, isn’t any complication you come up with for the quickest car+driver to be on pole artificial? When does a ‘challenge’ become an ‘artificiality’? I don’t know where to draw the line.

It sounds fairly straight forward as a format. Not sure there’s a need to have a stop every three laps. Just eliminate the final X cars every Y laps until you are down to the final few cars who shoot out for the top grid positions.

One of the most spectaculair moments in any F1 race is the (standing) start. You stop the race after three laps, so you can have another start. That’s entertainment. 😉

Now for the record, I wasn’t really serious, just trying to find out where people draw the line between “nice motorsport / fun to watch” and “a ridiculous gimmick”.
The format I proposed has very little to do with a proper qualifying format, where you reward the quickest driver with the best starting position. However, if you think F1 should be unpredictable and entertain every single second, then it just might work.

There’s no doubt the Australia Qualifying system was very poorly thought through (stunningly so, and stinks of incompetency), however I believe there was an extremely good qualifying system possible with only a few (but fundamental) changes to it. It also would have preserved the excitement and intrigue it was intend to bring in the first place.

PROBLEMS:
Main problems with the Australia Qualifying system: You are constantly watching the clock and calculating, drivers are suddenly left with no chance to finish their lap in time, there are periods where no one is on track leading to an anticlimax.

THE FIX:
• At the start of each qualifying session, there is 1 minute for everyone to get out on track when the pit exit is closed. From this point, if anyone pits before the end of the session, their time is locked and they cannot go out again.
• After each 90 seconds, the person at the bottom of the timings is not allowed to start a new timed lap, but must make there way back to the pits.

AFFECTS:
With fuel loads going down and laps times decreasing, no lead driver could take the chance to not be out until the end as there is always potential for the others on track bettering their time as their car lightens. Drivers on a good lap can finish their lap before they are forced out of the running. There is no timer watching as the time of the session doesn’t dictate whether a driver can finish his lap, but by referencing the screen graphic about who cannot start a new lap is all the information that is needed. We would still have the computer game elimination race element that this was designed to introduce, but to my mind all the problems fixed! It also introduces an interesting strategy: Low field teams may fuel for half a session to get a place or two higher. This would put some drivers slightly out of place and produce more passing in the race. Indeed the elimination style and pressure would increase driver mistakes (driving mistakes with more laps, maybe flat spotting tires, etc) which would only add the race quality by putting drivers slightly out of place.

Joe, if you agree even mildly, could you pass this on to someone with influence? Much thanks!