The hard life of the Alpha male. Get it? Get it? It's a double entendre. Heh heh. Penis.

Life is tough for the beta male. During his twenties, as Manosphere dudes never tire of reminding us, women reject him, choosing instead to throw themselves wantonly at caddish alpha males.

Only after these cruel, callous women have squandered their youth and beauty – by the age of 30 if not earlier – do they turn at last to the betas, who’ve been patiently waiting in the “friend zone” the whole time. Those poor betas, nice guys and good providers all, are then lured into marriage with these now-ugly shrews, who are no longer interested in sex, and want only their money, often used to provide for kids sired by alpha males. (See here for Holly Pervocracy’s more detailed analysis of the “Greek system.”)

But life can be tough for the alpha male as well, driven to exhaustion by nearly constant sex with an incredible array of horny twentysomething women. The movie trailer below will give you some idea of just what the typical alpha male has to deal with on a daily basis.

You stated that the point of sex is high sociosexual status, but the point of high sexual status is sex. Therefore, should I deduce that the point of sex is to convince yourseld, or other men, of your self worth?

I think it’s more something like how in that other kind of “game,” you level up in order to get better gear, and you get better gear in order to level up.

why don’t you and PUAs (since you don’t count yourself as one) don’t aim for that instead of desesperatly negging woman after woman to get one night of hook-up? I’ve never heard any of you guy speaking about that.

He already said, at least this one did: because “relationships” are just a big ol’ scam wherein you actually have to “give” something BACK in exchange for Teh Secks. Like money, or pretending to enjoy the woman’s company after the three minutes are over. “Processing.” “Talking.” “Cuddling.” “Making coffee.”

I still want to know about this dude’s childhood. Vhs, were you breast fed?

Actually, given how PUAs feel about feminists, I kind of feel like we need to start wearing a specific symbol to identify ourselves, as a way to ward them off. It would be like wearing the Hamsa, but for warding off assholes instead of evil spirits (encountering a PUA could certainly be considered bad luck, so no change there).

And alone in my apartment, lying tangled and sweaty in the bedsheets, I masturbated angrily, thinking about that pregnant woman, thinking of the inconvenience I caused her, thinking of her now, wherever she was, a bit more tired than she needed to be.

kyrie: Two things about the poly/open relationships:
– why don’t you and PUAs (since you don’t count yourself as one) don’t aim for that instead of desesperatly negging woman after woman to get one night of hook-up? I’ve never heard any of you guy speaking about that.

Because they don’t want relationships. They also don’t want to admit women have agency. The only, so far as they can see, “just” ordering of the world is, “Men on top, Alpha Males on top of other men. Me an Alpha Male.”

Look at his definition of Alpha:

1: Gets lots of sex
2: Can sleep around, even when married.
3: Women can’t live without his magic cock.

What I genuinely don’t understand is why having sex with lots of women that you don’t particularly like (and vice versa) is considered to be any kind of sensible aspiration. Presumably it’s the “having sex with lots of women” bit that trumps everything else in their weird little universes.

Two things about the poly/open relationships:
– why don’t you and PUAs (since you don’t count yourself as one) don’t aim for that instead of desesperatly negging woman after woman to get one night of hook-up? I’ve never heard any of you guy speaking about that.

The link also answers your second question – it does not hurt him, it is required. For others, it’s that it’s easier to get everyone involved to agree to non-exclusivity if it benefits both.

You can also find discussions in other guys’ materials. It’s not that common, because many in the community are romantics at the core and want a girlfriend and later wife (plus possibly some swinging).

“The link also answers your second question – it does not hurt him, it is required. For others, it’s that it’s easier to get everyone involved to agree to non-exclusivity if it benefits both.”

Well, then my question doesn’t apply to him. vsh seemed to think that a relationship open both way was necessary detrimental to a man.

“You can also find discussions in other guys’ materials. It’s not that common, because many in the community are romantics at the core and want a girlfriend and later wife (plus possibly some swinging).”
I… I don’t know what to answer. PUAs are romantic? Are we speaking about the same people? The community that invented “negging”, that train themselves to lie and manipulate women to have one-night sex? The fucking community that invented “rape game”? (disclaimer: it’s actually rape, but you pretend it’s not and the girl want it. Like most rapists)

Also you seem to imply that nor open or poly relationship can be romantic or lead to marriage. That’s just silly.

vsh pretty much confirms my suspicions that PUA is basically nothing more than homosocial bonding through competition. Sex is incidental to the whole enterprise and it’s pretty much just there as a ‘counting coup’ mechanism, where the status in the in-group is all about how much you get to humiliate or pull one over members of the out-group (women). They then project their scoring rules onto society and claim it’s universal instead of simply something that arises in their little clique. They then build an edifice of self-justification through pseudoscientific bullshit, for instance, the idea that 20% of the men get to hog all the sex.

Well, then my question doesn’t apply to him. vsh seemed to think that a relationship open both way was necessary detrimental to a man.

You are right, that question was directly about vsh’s opinion. I just added that part as supplemental information to the first question to show that not all people are quite as unreasonable as vsh, and that open relationships and polyamory are discussed.

I… I don’t know what to answer. PUAs are romantic? Are we speaking about the same people? The community that invented “negging”, that train themselves to lie and manipulate women to have one-night sex? The fucking community that invented “rape game”? (disclaimer: it’s actually rape, but you pretend it’s not and the girl want it. Like most rapists)

Yes, I think we are. It’s a wide community; some seek monogamous, others are into polyamory, many seek partners for casual relationships and still others just want random one night stands. What is actually taught varies even more widely. You mention negs, this is a very polysemous term. Clarisse Thorn has an article about three concepts associated with this term on the GMP, http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/feminist-sm-lessons-from-the-seduction-community-part-one-the-neg/
She enjoys one of them, finds the second manipulative, but not necessarily harmful, and the third horrible and misogynistic. And some branches do not teach negs at all, and recommend not using something like that. Lying is quite controversial, often honesty is one of the central values (“Honesty and Integrity are key”, “Honesty is the greatest aphrodisiac” etc.). Of course, all the bad stuff exists too, I do not wish to deny that, and it can be horribly vile; I don’t know much about that stuff except what David posts here, and that tells me enough to stay far, far away.

Also you seem to imply that nor open or poly relationship can be romantic or lead to marriage. That’s just silly.

That would indeed be silly. I did not phrase this well, and should have expressed myself clearer. I apologize. What I meant to say was that many subscribe, at least in part, to traditional notions and want to find a partner they can be exclusive with, preferably long-term. Of course, poly relationships can be romantic and commited, and I am glad for everyone who is in a happy arrangement, no matter how many people are involved.

vsh pretty much confirms my suspicions that PUA is basically nothing more than homosocial bonding through competition. Sex is incidental to the whole enterprise and it’s pretty much just there as a ‘counting coup’ mechanism, where the status in the in-group is all about how much you get to humiliate or pull one over members of the out-group (women).

This seems impossible to deny, on the basis of the evidence.

Part of the problem is that, almost by definition, these people have never been in a successful long-term relationship – in fact, with their mindset, I’m not sure they ever could be. Which is why such things usually don’t enter into their equations at all, or get glibly dismissed as the sort of things that “betas” let themselves be sucked into by evil scheming women.

At the risk of sounding like B____don, I had sex last night, and it was sensational. When you’ve had the same partner for over a decade and remain on the same physical and emotional wavelength, there’s nothing to touch it. It’s not about performance, or “proving” anything: by now, we know instinctively what buttons to push (metaphorically and literally) and exactly how to spin things out to precisely the right length of time that both of us need, and so we can concentrate on just enjoying it, and each other.

No-one can tell me with a straight face that that’s a lesser experience than fumbled, often embarrassing sex with someone you don’t even like very much (or at all), and who probably feels the same way about you. At best, it’ll be a coldly mechanical physical process with precisely none of the elements that I routinely get out of it. At worst, it’ll be humiliating.

“How about we do a quick Google search?
For yaoi I got 53.500.000 results. Hm, does seem quite a lot for a weird outlier thing, but oh well. Let’s look up slash fiction too: 16.000.000 results. Apparently, those few outliers are quite productive!
Now let’s search for PUA! 19.400.000 results. At least it’s a bit more than slash fiction?
Maybe if we look for MRM, just because I’m nice!
15.400.000 results, and none of them on the first page are about the Men’s Rights Movement. What about MRA? 18.000.000! Oh well, that’s a bit more. But what’s this? None of the results on the first page say anything about Men’s Rights Activists! However, I now know where to get motorcycle windshields 😀
For a cultural meme, you guys seem to have less influence than women who like to see hot guys bone each other. And if you think THEY are weird outliers (which is especially rich considering you joked about fantasizing about lesbians earlier) then what does that say about your movement?

Pretty much every female friend I have digs guy-on-guy action, so that’s why I wanted to throw in my two cents!”

—-

Most women are much more social and verbal than most men are, so it’s not surprising they’d be more hits/pages for even a fetish women are into. And the fact that women want to see most guys emasculated and made “gay” is consistent with my thesis that most women wish most men (betas) would be submissive, “gay” – so they’d lose sociosexual status/value, and be easier to control by both women and alphas, who of course are not going to be forced to do anything “gay”, unmanly, and undesirable. “Gay” sex is a loss of sexual value for straight men. Those same women into seeing betas act gay would happily assume the feminine role for the alpha and not expect him to be “gay”. It really is femdom on a mass scale, where most men are made (against their will) to be submissives/cuckolds/”gay”/wimpy/feminine and a few men are allowed to be dominant, masculine and high status. One has to wonder why so many feminists (even on this thread) are into bdsm and other sick sadistic shit that isn’t even sexy to most people – it’s all about forcing most men to be women (“equal” to women) while alphas get away from this.

Back to the point about game becoming a major cultural meme and movement far greater than any “gay” fetish that few normal people know about. My point is that most men know about the basic narrative of game/pua: that women want alphas and bad boys while using betas and nice guys, i.e nice guys finish last. The narrative has fully been absorbed by the male collective consciousness by now. Whether any particular male agrees with it or not, he knows about the basic narrative which game/pua builds upon. Just search youtube and google for terms like “pua ; game seduction ; nice guys ; nice guy vs bad boy ; alpha male ; beta male ; seduction community ; pick up forums ; mASF forums. There are countless other terms associated with game/pua that would get countless hits. The seduction community started many years ago in the early days of the internet as alt.seduction.fast newsgroup and the moderated.alt.seduction.fast (mASF). Then you have all of the various pick up gurus past and present and all of their material. MRA is far smaller than game/pua/seduction, but many of the same themes are there.

Just a mainstream example, “nice guy song” by nigahiga has over 31 million hits in its most popular version and there are other versions and others songs and videos like it by that same youtuber. Notice how the video ends all politically correct and niceguyish (of course to appease the feminazi’s who would just try to have it taken down if it didn’t). But it is perfect in describing the entire narrative (and the dillema/torment) that has shaped many if not most men’s lives who grew up under feminism, and the response to this which is game/pua.

VHSdelusionalcreeper, you do realize that just repeating the same nonsense over and over again, after people have already analyzed it, debunked it, and rejected it, isn’t going to change anybody’s mind, right? You are aware of this, correct?

One has to wonder why so many feminists (even on this thread) are into bdsm and other sick sadistic shit that isn’t even sexy to most people – it’s all about forcing most men to be women (“equal” to women) while alphas get away from this.

One of the reasons I keep coming back to this board is because so many of our trolls come out with something that would actually be progressive if they didn’t back it up in the weirdest way possible. Sometimes they advocate for male birth control–not because it’s a worthwhile thing for all genders to be able to control their own reproduction, but because all women want to trap you into making babies. Other times they support women being able to work outside the home–but it’s only because marriage is for suckers.

Now, they’re arguing that dominant women do, in fact, exist, which is something that’s rare even in the BDSM community. But vhs thinks this is true because femdoms *really* just want to make men as *unattractive* as possible? o.O

vsh: I just read the OP again… Dave never mentioned you. No one here asked you to speak, so just keep your fingers in your lap and you might learn something.

Well, no, I don’t think so. You are deluded. You’ve built a myth of how the world works and any actual facts (like the fondness of women for yaoi or that they like sex for the sake of sex, and “status”, Α/Β/Μ/Θ/Φ/Ω what the fuckever you want to call the fairies in your little fantasyland have nothing to do with it.

Facts be damned, as far as you’re concerned, so there’s no point in trying to help you see the error of your ways. You want to wallow in the Slough of Despond, go to. None so blind as those who will not see, etc..*

We’ll go on living happy, satisfied lives. The feminists among us (the women and the men) will continue to fuck whom they want. Make love to whom they want. Not fuck whom they want. Love whom they want, and pity those who (take a look in the mirror) who refuse to admit this simple fact.

Men and Women are so much more alike than they are different that the only sensible thing to do is treat them as equals.

*NB, this is not an MRA double period, it’s a stop after an abbreviation

@vsh:
‘gay’: you keep using that word. I do no think it means what you think it means.
See, in my world, gay men are a group of people who are… not very interested (sexually or romantically) in people like me (ie women). Therefore I don’t want all men to turn gay, I have zero interest in that, especially not if I want to control them. (The idea of “controlling with pussy” a gay man is absurd)

So…women sexually fantasize about beta males so more men will become betas, so there will be fewer alphas, who are the only men women are really attracted to. Because women want fewer attractive men around. And the men they find attractive are the opposite of the men they have sex fantasies about.

I think I just tore something in my brain.

Dude, not even female chimps want alpha male chimps. Look it up; the betas get laid more, probably because they’re not tired out from defending their status with other males.

Most women are much more social and verbal than most men are, so it’s not surprising they’d be more hits/pages for even a fetish women are into.

Huh, I thought they were only weird outliers? And many nerdy women who write tend to be quite socially awkward as well. (in b4: “they are just ugly geeks who can’t get laid!!!!11!”)

And the fact that women want to see most guys emasculated and made “gay” is consistent with my thesis that most women wish most men (betas) would be submissive, “gay” – so they’d lose sociosexual status/value, and be easier to control by both women and alphas, who of course are not going to be forced to do anything “gay”, unmanly, and undesirable.

Uhhh, if I told you that one of my female friends who writes (smoking hot, I gotta admit) fiction where quite manly and not at all “emasculated” (nice homophobia there) guys (who you would probably see as “alphas”) have quite rough sex, you would probably just see that as proof that women dig alphas. So it there a way that will convince you that some women just dig good looking guys?

“Gay” sex is a loss of sexual value for straight men.

ಠ__ಠ

I know there are some bi/homophobic women who think that sex with guys who had sex with other guys is icky, but there are also many women who really dig having two dudes make out with each other, and wanting to have a threesome with them! I talk from experience.
It’s what being objectified can feel like.

One has to wonder why so many feminists (even on this thread) are into bdsm and other sick sadistic shit that isn’t even sexy to most people – it’s all about forcing most men to be women (“equal” to women) while alphas get away from this.

I’m just gonna ignore the homophobia and get straight to this.
What the fuck does it matter that some women like stuff that most some people are not into? And now dommes are about forcing men to be women?
You have no fucking idea about how BDSM works, have you?

Back to the point about game becoming a major cultural meme and movement far greater than any “gay” fetish that few normal people know about.

Yeaaaaah…that’s why “yaoi” has a lot more results than PUA, and why shows like “True Blood” or the BBC “Sherlock” are pandering to women who dig that stuff are so popular, or why there is actually an industry of games with homoerotic content targeted to women.

My point is that most men know about the basic narrative of game/pua: that women want alphas and bad boys while using betas and nice guys, i.e nice guys finish last.

Just a question: do you consider yourself a “nice guy”? Because, believe me, you are not nice by any stretch of the word. The reason women won’t date you isn’t because you are too nice, I assure you.
I am nerdy, socially awkward and shy as heck, yet there are women interested in me, even though I’m what you would call “nice”.
The difference is, I’m not nice to get laid, I’m nice because I genuinely enjoy being a decent human being and making people happy.

So, yeah. I think you really, REALLY underestimate women’s sexual agency.
I assure you, the women who dig gay porn don’t dig it because it’s “emasculating” to guys. They enjoy it because they like hot guys, the more, the better.

Again, you said you like fantasizing about hot lesbians. WHY IS IT DIFFERENT WHEN WOMEN DO IT?

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