CFITrainer.Net Podcast

The IAAI and CFITrainer.Net present these podcasts with a focus on issues relating to fire investigation. With expertise from around the world, the International Association of Arson Investigators produces these podcasts to bring more information and electronic media to fire investigators looking for training, education and general information about fire investigation. Topics include recent technologies, issues in the news, training opportunities, changes in laws and standards and any other topic that might be of interest to a fire investigator or industry professional affected by fire. Information is presented using a combination of original stories and interviews with scientists, leaders in fire investigation from the fire service and the law enforcement community.

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Transcript

Welcome to the IAAI’s February 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast. This week’s podcast features our interview with a commercial kitchen’s fire expert about what you need to know when you work a commercial kitchen fire. In the news, we cover the status of a revision cycle of the NFPA 921 and the invention of a new material that prevents electronic device battery fires. Finally, we’ll close with a report from the IAAI’s training summit and exciting progress on IAAI’s new skill practicums. Let’s get started.

In the United States, there are over 7,000 structure fires in restaurants every year, resulting in over $100 million in property loss. A commercial kitchen’s design, construction, appliances, functions, and operation are very different from a home kitchen. Therefore, many of the “rules” of investigating a home kitchen fire don’t apply. With us today to discuss the unique aspects of commercial kitchen fires is Phil Ackland, a commercial kitchen fires expert, textbook author, and technical committee member for NFPA 96, that’s the Standard for Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Equipment. Welcome, Phil. Thanks for being with us.

PHIL- You’re welcome.

Q- So tell us, what are the major differences between commercial kitchen fires and home cooking fires?

PHIL- Well, most likely the intensity. Restaurants cook thousands of meals a day as opposed to, you know, a house, so the accumulations of grease would be much more substantial. Housekeeping attitudes are much different, and obviously commercial kitchens have profit motives. So primarily it’s intensity.

Q- What are the major aspects of a scene examination in a commercial kitchen fire? What do you need to look for?

PHIL- One of the major considerations is to take a look at the code compliance, and a great number of restaurants, particularly older ones, were installed using what they call type II installation, and this meant that there was no clearance to combustible requirements and so forth, and whereas the cooking may have been non-grease producing at the time, over time the kitchens get remodeled and they take the steam kettle out and they put a char broiler in. In addition, the suppression system often the installation is not checked properly by the building or fire inspectors and so these systems don’t work. The greatest cause of malfunction, of course, is just an absolute lack of maintenance on the part of fire suppression servicing companies that aren’t doing the servicing as required so the systems get plugged up with grease and what not.

Q- What are the most common causes of commercial kitchen fires?

PHIL- Grease, just the absolute build-up of grease. Either you have grease accumulation on the filters and in the hood that propagate the fire to spread up into the ductwork, but just as often the grease accumulations will plug up the fire suppression system so that it doesn’t discharge properly. It may discharge, but the nozzles over where our fire’s taking place are plugged up with grease.

Q- What are some of the more unusual commercial kitchen fires that you’ve come across?

PHIL- I have had two that I can recall, one in which the young man who was the cook wanted to show off to his girlfriend and created, they had what they called a Pittsburgh steak or the outside of the steak is very well charred and the inside is relatively raw, and he was using flambé, that alcohol, and he showed off real well and sent the fire right up into the ductwork and it burnt the building down. Another one that I, it was Mother’s Day and this solid fuel restaurant was going to have what they, you know, it was the biggest day of the year for them on record, so the two cooks that were there decided that they had to build a really big fire in the solid fuel char broiler unit that they used to cook all these steaks, so that’s what they did. They built a really big fire to get started to get the coals down. One of them went into the freezer for the meat and the other one went out back to get another wheelbarrow full of firewood and as he was returning from the shed where they keep the wood, he noticed the roof was smoking and that proceeded to burn the building down. Again, just unattended fire and away the building went.

Q- How can the ventilation equipment present in commercial kitchen fires affect the spread?

PHIL- A commercial kitchen system consists of two primary components. Obviously, the appliances below and they are served by an exhaust system that includes a hood with usually filters in it, a duct that leads up to the roof or outside the building and then a fan, and the fan’s purpose is to pull the heat and smoke out of the building. Additionally, the commercial kitchen system will have a fixed pipe fire suppression system. Both of these components need to work together. Now when it comes to the effect of the exhaust system on a fire, the fan is naturally pulling our fire up into the ductwork. If we have grease in our exhaust system, it creates a very serious radiant heat effect which will ignite wooden members that might have been in close proximity. Also, if the fire is up into the hood, it should have engaged the diffusible length of the suppression system. Now the suppression system does two different things. One is it puts agent, wet agent on the fire, but it also shuts the gas off to the kitchen and that is tremendously important that second point. So if the fire suppression system doesn’t activate properly, our gas continues and no agent is put on the fire within the duct or the hood and the fan continues to pull it up throughout the ductwork. You’ve got a power ventilated volcano.

Q- What are some of your greatest obstructions to investigating a commercial kitchen fire?

PHIL- What were the effects of the fire department’s effort to put the fire out? Did they take filters out or were they out before the fire took place? Did they move the appliances in some way, or were they out of place? Did they take access panels off or were they not installed? So the effects of the fire department can have a considerable degree of influence on what you’re seeing. Also, if anybody has touched anything, the burnt grease on a steel surface is incredibly fragile and just simply touching it and it will just disintegrate.

Q- What should an investigator without commercial kitchen expertise do if he or she gets a commercial kitchen fire?

PHIL- Well there’s three very important things. One, photographs, and I mean not your obvious, you know, outside in photographs, but macros, in particular, of the fusible links and where the cable for the fusible link goes into the piping, we call it an EMT piping. There’s a steel braded cable that runs in through these pipes and so get pictures of just the opening where the piping is, get pictures of the nozzles - and close-ups so that you can actually read the writing on the nozzle or identify the type of nozzle and the manufacturer. Also, to take measurements so that you know the dimension - or the distances from the appliance to say the fusible link, the appliance to the filters and the location of the nozzles, the fire suppression nozzles over the particular appliances involved and the numbers of nozzles over each particular appliance. And then I strongly recommend if you don’t have any experience to have the most likely appliances secured as well as the hood duct and fan and the suppression system so that others in the future who are experts can get a real close look at these different pieces.

Thanks, Phil for sharing your expertise. Now, let’s move on to the news.

The revision cycle for NFPA 921: Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigation is well underway and an important milestone is coming up. March 5, 2010 is the deadline to comment on the Report on Proposals for changes to NFPA 921 in the 2011 edition. Information on proposed changes and the form to use to submit your comments on these proposed changes can be found at nfpa.org. Participation in this process is open to all members of the public and your comments will be considered by the Committee.

In other news, a new material has been developed to prevent fires in lithium-ion batteries, which are used to power most electronic devices, including laptops and cellular phones. Numerous electronics companies, including Apple and HP, have had to recall products with lithium-ion due to a fire hazard posed by overheating batteries. But now, researchers at the Industrial Technology Research Institute in Taiwan report that they have invented a new technology, called STOBA or S-T-O-B-A that prevents the internal battery shorts that cause fires. STOBA stands for self-terminated oligomers with hyper-branched architecture. STOBA is a nano-grade polymer that sits between the positive and negative half-cells of the battery. When the battery’s temperature reaches 130ºC or encounters external impact or piercing, STOBA transforms from a porous material into a film that “locks” the battery by interrupting the electrochemical reaction. This technology may usher in a new era of fire safety for the over three billion lithium-ion batteries manufactured every year.

Finally, we’ll close with news from the IAAI.

The IAAI Training Summit was held the week of February 8th, 2010 in New Orleans, Louisiana. The group of fire investigation instructors and class developers reviewed the ongoing training program of the IAAI and identified new class subjects and courses to be developed in 2010.

One of the most important innovations to be released in 2010 is the Skill Practicums. The Skill Practicums employ an intense, hands-on demonstration format to give the fire investigator the opportunity to display their skills in evidence gathering, scene evaluation, and scene management. A test will be conducted in the spring and the first practicums are scheduled for the summer of 2010.

IAAI’s Annual Training Conference is coming up May 17 through 21, 2010 in Orlando, FL. One of the highlights of this year’s ATC will be a one week training class which, upon completion, will allow the qualified applicant to meet the training requirements and test for the Fire Investigation Technician professional credential. In next month’s podcast, we’ll have a full preview of ATC 2010. For more information on these and other IAAI professional development opportunities, contact the IAAI office at 1-800-468-IAAI.

That concludes this IAAI CFITrainer.Net podcast. We’ll see you again next month.

Other Episodes

2019

April 2019 Podcast
- April '19 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. There are two new additions to CFITrainer.Net! A new podcast with Dan Madrzykowski from UL speaking about ventilation and Fire Flow, and a new module called “Fire Flow Analysis”.

March 2019 Podcast
- March '19 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast includes updates from the IAAI related to the election, the upcoming ITC, and a new website specifically about evidence collection. After the updates, you will also hear some news stories related to fire investigation.

January 2019 Podcast
- January '19 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we’re looking back on some of the biggest issues in fire investigation in 2018.

2018

November 2018 Podcast
- November '18 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we talk with Jeff Pauley from the IAAI’s Health and Safety Committee. Jeff is an IAAI-CFI and the Chairman of the Health and Safety Committee. In this podcast, he talks about ways to reduce exposure to carcinogens related to fire investigation. By listening, you will learn about ways to reduce your risks, learn about new resources that are available to assist you, and research that is coming soon.

October 2018 Podcast
- October '18 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month meet and learn about IAAI’s new Executive Director, Scott Stephens and plans for the future. After that interview, hear some wild stories from the national news related to fire investigation.

What you need to know about Arson Awareness week
- April '18 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we welcome Tonya Hoover, the Superintendent of the National Fire Academy. Superintendent Hoover came to the NFA with more than 20 years of experience in local and state government, most recently as the California State Fire Marshal.

Growing pot and earning Bitcoin can start fires?
- March '18 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. In this month’s podcast, hear a story about how the Bitcoin business might be causing fires? What similarities are there between Pot growers and now Bitcoin miners?

Training related to wildland fire investigation
- February '18 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast highlights new training related to wildland fire investigation featuring an interview with Paul Way, and this year’s International Training Conference. We also have a pretty wild story before we wrap up. Birds starting fires?

2017

Smart homes and digital data gathering issues
- December '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. In this podcast, we discuss two topics on the technology and forensics cutting edge. Michael Custer of Kilgore Engineering, Inc. and retired Special Agent Tully Kessler share some knowledge and give us a taste of the classes that they will be presenting at ITC 2018.

Discussion with Writer Monica Hesse
- September '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. In this podcast, you will hear some great news related to the IAAI and CFITrainer.Net and then we have an interview with Monica Hesse, the writer of a new book called "American Fire: Love, Arson, and Life in a Vanishing Land."

Discussion with Criminalist- John DeHaan
- June '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month on the CFITrainer.Net podcast, we talk to Criminalist, fire investigation expert and Author of "Kirk’s Fire Investigation", John DeHaan.

The Ghost Ship
- May '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. For this podcast, we hear from a retired Captain of the Long Beach Fire Department, Pat Wills. Pat has been in the fire service for 37 years. He has been a leader and an investigator, now he is an educator speaking around the country about the importance of code enforcement.

Fast Podcast about ITC!
- March '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we talk to David Bridges about what to expect at ITC and the training you won’t want to miss.

CFITrainer Podcast- A profile with an IAAI-CFI®
- February '17 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. Join us this month for our podcast as we interview IAAI member and CFI, Jeff Spaulding from Middletown, Ohio. Jeff talks about his work in both the public and private sector and then he shares an interesting story about how a pacemaker is helping in an investigation.

2016

An interview with Dr. James Quintiere
- December '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. In a discussion with Dr. James Quintiere, we learn about some of his work in fire sciences, a bit about his research, his opinions related to the World Trade Center investigation and what he thinks is important to fire investigation as a scholarly leader in our field.

September 2016 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- September '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we talk about the recent changes in the FAA's regulations for commercial and public sector use of UAS or "Drones".

August 2016 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- August '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we talk to Jessica Gotthold about the Seaside Heights fire in NJ from 2013

July 2016 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- July '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we talk to Fire Marshall, Ken Helms of the Enid, OK. Fire Department about his team winning the Fire Investigator of the Year award.

March 2016 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- March '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's fire investigation podcast from the IAAI's CFITrainer.Net focuses on the Youth Firesetting Information Repository and Evaluation System, which is called YFIRES for short.

February 2016 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- February '16 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's fire investigation podcast from the IAAI's CFITrainer.Net focuses on what you need to do to ensure the integrity of samples sent to the lab. A conversation with Laurel Mason of Analytical Forensic Associates.

2015

September 2015 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- September '15 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. Our podcast related to the legalization of recreational marijuana and its effect on fire investigation was one of the most popular podcasts ever on CFITrainer.Net. This month’s podcast is a follow up with one of our listeners from California who is an investigator doing training on this very topic.

August 2015 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- August '15 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast is about NFIRS where we interview the Executive Director of The National Association of State Fire Marshals Fire Research and Education Foundation, Jim Narva.

July 2015 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- July '15 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. In this special edition of podcast we’re going to meet the newest IAAI Investigator of the Year, Andrea Buchanan.

April 2015 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '15 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's Arson Investigator podcast from IAAI & CFITrainer interviews Dave Perry, a lawyer in Colorado discussing what fire chiefs, fire investigators, and the legal system are seeing in a state with legalized cannabis in regard to fire cause involving marijuana.

February 2015 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- Feb '15 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's Arson Investigator podcast from IAAI & CFITrainer interviews Mike Schlatman and Steve Carman who are both successful fire investigators and now business owners who have transitioned from the public to the private sector.

2014

December 2014 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- December '14 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast interviews Steve Avato from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives explaining the process of elimination and how it is a critical part of the scientific method.

April 2014 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '14 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast interviews with Don Robinson, Special Agent in Charge with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Currently stationed at the National Center for Explosives Training and Research, located at the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama.

2013

October 2013 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- October '13 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast focuses on the fire research work of Underwriters’ Laboratories, better known as UL.

February 2013 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- February '13 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month we have an interview with George Codding who returned from a recent trip to Saipan and gives us a closer look at the international activities of the International Association of Arson Investigators

2012

Mid Year 2012 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- Mid Year '12 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This podcast features a mid-year update on the IAAI’s new initiatives and ways for you to get more involved with the organization.

September 2012 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- September '12 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features an in-depth look at the recent live-burn fire experiments exercise conducted on Governor’s Island, New York by the New York City Fire Department, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, Underwriters Laboratory, and the Trust for Governor’s Island.

August 2012 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- August '12 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This is a special edition of the CFITrainer.Net podcast previewing the ITC 2013. There’s a new name for the Annual Training Conference from the IAAI now called the International Training conference.

April 2012 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '12 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features an interview with Chief Ernest Mitchell, Jr., the US Fire Administrator. Also we will discuss the upcoming ATC, Annual Training Conference, from the IAAI about to happen in Dover, Delaware.

March 2012 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- March '12 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features an interview with ATF Special Agent Billy Malagassi out of the Tulsa, OK Field Office about investigating fires in clandestine drug labs. We also report on NIST’s findings in the Charleston Sofa Super Store fire and IAAI’s Evidence Collection Practicum.

2011

December 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- December '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features one of the presenters from this year’s IAAI ATC and see how a single photo broke the Provo Tabernacle fire case.

October 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- October '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features an interview with Deborah Nietch, the new Executive Director of IAAI.

June 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- June '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month's podcast features a lot of exciting things that are happening at CFITrainer.Net

May 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- May '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month highlights the IAAI ATC in Las Vegas and the third installment in the "It Could Happen to You" series.

April 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This podcast announces the release of the program, The First Responder’s Role in Fire Investigation, which teaches first responders how to make critical observations and take important scene preservation actions at a fire scene.

March 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- March '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features some of the instructors from the upcoming 2011 Annual Training Conference, to provide a preview of the courses they will be presenting.

February 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- February '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features an update on fire grants and an interview with Steve Austin

January 2011 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- January '11 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features the release of the new edition of Fire Investigator: Principles and Practice to NFPA 921 and 1033, new flammability requirements from UL for pre-lit artificial Christmas trees and a growing fire problem in Dubai with factories turned into worker dormitories.

August 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- August '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast focuses on social media as a fire investigation tool, a potential problem with modular home glued ceilings and research from Underwriters Laboratories on the effects of ventilation on structure fires.

July 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- July '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast is a roundtable on some of the latest research and technical activities that impact fire investigation, featuring Daniel Madrzykowski (moderator), Steven Kerber, and Dr. Fred Mowrer.

May 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- May '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. The second in our safety series called "It Could Happen To You." Our Long-Term Exposure roundtable is moderated by Robert Schaal.

April 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. The first of our two-part safety series called "It Could Happen To You." Our roundtable is moderated by Robert Schaal.

March 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- March '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features a conversation about legislative affairs affecting the fire service with Bill Webb, Executive Director of the Congressional Fire Services Research Institute.

January 2010 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- January '10 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features a look at preliminary research on corrosion caused by Chinese drywall, a new database focused on fires in historic buildings, a warning on blown-in insulation, and the launch of the new firearson.com web site.

2009

December 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- December '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features cooking fires, highlights of the International Code Council’s Annual Meeting on code requirements, including requiring residential sprinkler systems, and an easy way to keep up with recalls from the US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

November 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- November '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features chimney fires, including recent news on surgical flash fires, a proposed national arsonist registry, lightning research and an innovation in personal protective equipment.

September 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- September '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features the relationship between climate conditions and fire risk, new research on formulating fireproof walls and the latest in IAAI news.

August 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- August '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month takes a look at the dangerous combination of summer heat and oily rags, the rise in vacant home fires, and preview research underway on Australia’s devastating "Black Saturday" brush fires.

July 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- July '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month features a look at outdoor grill fires, a fatal fire at a homeless camp in Southern NJ, new NIST research on human behavior during building fires, and IAAI news.

June 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- June '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features live reports from the 2009 IAAI Annual Training Conference held in May.

April 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- April '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast features the NFPA 921 chapter on marine fire investigations and the myth and reality of static electricity as a source of ignition.

March 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- March '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month focuses on the rise of the hybrid vehicle and what its unique engineering means for the investigation of vehicle fires, the rash of devastating arson fires in Coatesville, Pennsylvania from December 2008 to February 2009, and news from IAAI.

January 2009 CFITrainer.Net Podcast
- January '09 IAAI & CFITrainer Fire Investigator Podcasts. This month’s podcast focuses on the deepening financial crisis in the US and arson for profit fires, how going green may pose a fire hazard and see how rope lighting may be a source of ignition, and IAAI’s Expert Witness Courtroom Testimony course.