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Friday, September 30, 2011

Pinned post for prospective faculty to IITs/IISc

This is a pinned post (i.e., this post will always appear at the top of this blog though newer posts appear below it) for prospective faculty to IITs/IISc.

Please, please read this site and the old posts, here, here and here. There are over 800 comments and replies to these comments in these posts. Read them carefully before you post here.

If you post a question that has already been answered several times, it will be deleted. If you require an answer to your question, post it with a name, initials, pseudonym or anything that is distinguishable.

Why it is the forum goes silent when some one asks an important question - what the take home salary would be for an assistant professor (contract) at any of the IIT/ IISERs? I see participants chip in eloquently on other topics, but, unfortunately, not in giving out a simple number on salary!

There is a search function - look at the left side corner of the blog. Further, the updated information is provided in the website,

https://sites.google.com/site/newfacultyiisc/pay-structure

The DA is not 35% but 51%. HRA is different from place to place. It is 30% in Bangalore. The income tax can not be calculated in this simple way - it depends on how much one saves in savings schemes of the government.

We (read as aspiring/prospective faculty) are grateful to your professional service in providing pointers as the moderator- equivalent to Dave Jensen (more relating to industry tips - for those interested in them).

Just to add some "current" figures, DA is likely to be 58% with effect from July 1, 2011. Also, there seems to be an error in what our host has quoted - the Transport Allowance is 3200 + DA on it while the referenced website has erroneously calculated it as 3200 + 15% of DA (so TA is actually now 3200*1.51 = 4832 and is likely to go up to about 5056 from July 1).

Dear Prof. Giridhar and Prof. Sriram,I got the offer letter from IIT and it says asst. prof. on contract for 3 yrs which makes sense since I dont have any post-doc experience. My Basic pay+grade pay is (26620+6000). My question is will I be promoted to PB4 after completion of 3 yrs. Or i need to first become Asst prof (permanent) in 3 yrs then again after 3 yrs i will get into PB4 payband which means it will take 6 yrs irrespective of what i do. Isn't that true?

My 2nd question is: How do they judge a faculty candidate to make him permanent from on-contract of 3 yrs. Will they form a institute committee or they will make a interview committee again with external experts like they did during my faculty interview. Also how often one get terminated during the probation (in my case its 3 yrs). Moreover, whats the parameter or the expectation from me. The answer from the HOD and Dept Director of the IIT was that I am expected to carry out cutting edge research with publication in high impact factor journal like i did in my phd and of course good UG/PG teaching. That makes me more confused about the parameters, like how many publications are required to get tenured after 3 yrs. my work is mostly experimental. So is it like top 10 school in US where u need to have atleast one Nature/Science or bunch of Nano Lett/Advanced materials to get tenured. I am specially concerned since I am not sure how much lab-space/how many students and how fast i will get the funding so that in 3 yrs i can show some output in INDIA.Your response will help me a lot to make up my mind about RTI and take up this job.Thanks a ton in advance!!Best regards,-Raj

Yes, I agree with Prof. Giridhar. Having got an offer from IIT, are you really believing that you can publish in science/nature in three years after research in IITs when professors after 20 years of experience do not have a single paper in science and nature.

IISc offers 5 year contract to all faculty. This was before the sixth pay commission and they continue to do so even now. What do they expect to confirm i.e., tenure the faculty after five years? One publication. Anywhere, even an Indian journal will do. These are the highest standards set by IISc. IITs will not expect anything better.

For a promising young PhD, if doing high quality research is not one of the reasons to join an IIX, then what is? More generally, if a young PhD has an ambition to achieve his/her academic/scientific potential and has a desire to get rewarded, respected and be cherished for it, would you recommend that the PhD joins IIXs?

I only pointed out the reality of research in IIT/IISc. For "tenure", nobody in these institutions will expect a science or nature paper. If you have one, great, they may even give the Bhatnagar to you right away (Not sure whether even Bhatnagar awardees have science or nature papers).

For "tenure" i.e., confirmation of the job after five years of contract, IISc expects ONE paper from the faculty. Not one in some great journal but just one in any journal. Do not expect IITs to have much higher standards than this.

I think I should have clarified that my question was not pertaining to the discussion on tenure standards that preceded it; though it was inspired by it.

In principle, would you recommend that a young PhD who wants "to achieve his/her academic/scientific potential and has a desire to get rewarded, respected and be cherished for it," look to join an IIX?

This is important because I feel that many US PhDs are returning with the hope of doing good research in IIXs. But they would also like be rewarded and valued for their work. The US has a system of rewarding people monetarily. Do the IIXs have a way of telling a faculty that 'you are unique, we value you. we encourage you to do your best.'?

There is no monetary reward for doing well. Prof. Giridhar Madras has written about it

"Continuous increment of 3% of Basic+AGP will ensure that one will reach the end of the scale of 67,000 at the end of 23 years, if never promoted (see orange columns). If promoted to professor under the IISc scheme of 6 years as assistant professor followed by six years as associate professor (see green columns), one will reach the end of the scale at the end of 21 years. "

http://giridharmadras.blogspot.com/2009/09/new-pay-scales.html

you can do excellent research in IITs and be rewarded by awards and accolades but not monetarily from the institute

Dear Prof Madras/Sriram,If one applies for DST Ramanujan with a dept in IISc/IITM as host, which committees of IISc/IITM will approve the application and forward to DST? How beureaucratic is this process and how long could it take?Thanks for your reply.

Though many people in this forum grumble about low salary in IIX, honestly speaking salary is not bad (could be better no doubt)at all. An Asst. Prof. makes about Rs. 80 K per month (including HRA+58 % DA). Summer is fully paid (even one can take vacation for 3 months) unlike US counterparts. The salary increase per year is also not bad (including DA adjustment).Funding scenario is also pretty sweet as well. In first year alone I got 5 grants approved without breaking much sweat. I cannot imagine this in US where success rate is around 12-14 %.

I wonder if your claim can be backed by some serious calculations given the real estate prices today. A flat in a metro requires at least 50 lakhs. If an asst prof starts with little or no savings, he would have to take a loan of at least 50 lakhs, which amounts to a repayment of about 50k per month for the next 20 years. This leaves with disposable income of at most 10-30k, considering that HRA is taken. This is the best case. If HRA is not taken, then taking a loan is almost impossible. Do salaries really seem attractive?

I have been reading this blog for some time and thought maybe I should write something. I was bit inspired by the write-up from Z about 5000K apartment. I will go philosophical so please be kind to me :).

I wonder if the questions are wrong how one can find the right answers, for an answer to be right the question needs to be corrected first. What is the question, If it is “Can I buy a 5000k house joining academia in the first year itself”, gentleman the answer is NO. If the question is “Do I want to live in a 5000K apartment from first year itself?” and the answer is YES then for sure academia is not the place for you, banks are the best place. Sell dreams of home with home loans and you would for sure manage to get one for yourself. Though even there you cannot buy a home the next day you join, you need to work for some time. But what if the answer is NO. What if the answer is when the govt. of the India is offering me two bed room flat (satisfaction has no upper limit so I am only talking for myself) why the hell would I want to buy a 5000K flat in a metro and not save money to buy a plot and make my own house far away from the city where I can grow grapes and brew my own beer after retirement. In the mean time I can focus more on research and not worry about buying a 5000K apartment. That makes ACADEMIA interesting right? :P

A gentleman by name William Shakespeare has long written “to be or not to be is the question” I guess it has now changed to “to do or not to do” :D

It maybe impossible to buy a house worth 50 lacs as soon as you join provided you are the only earning member. But if someone is into earning more money those avenues are also there. In any given year, one faculty can earn more money thru SID, consultancy, Gate related work, DST fellowships etc. Now i know of several faculties who have purchased their apartments (50 lacs+)through combined income, previous savings etc. Many in Vijnanapura campus has two cars and lead a very comfortable life. So given that IISc provide abundant academic freedom, very low teaching load, reasonable grants and free graduate students, the stress is limited. For people who talk about bad housing, the Vijnanapura housing in IISc (and main campus too) is located in a very good locality and are very airy. Although maintenance is not good in some cases,it is not bad at all.

Could not agree more. I used to publish two papers per year as a graduate student. After coming to IIT as a faculty, I know that the expectation from me is one paper per year with all my students put together. For each promotion, I have to publish around 10 papers per five years. That would be considered "Good" and "above average". The best here publish around 4-5 papers per year and they are "stars".

Thus, considering the stress free life with minimal work, the pay of around Rs. 1 lakh is really worth it.

There are quite a few people who have very good publication record in India. As an e.g. if you look at IISc ME there are atleast five faculties who have 100+ journal papers and quite a few has more than 50+ papers. the dept. has atleast three faculties who left tenured/tenure track jobs in US and came back. now publishing with advisor under direction is a different ball game than coming to the stadium and facing all the music (from grant, paper writing, guiding students) yourself without any help from advisor. So publishing papers with one's own ideas become difficult. Also funding scenario in India has improved only in the last 10 years or so. So paper trends will improve and people will publish more. In a nutshell, quality of some departments in IIxs are comparable to some good universities in US.

Gupta: I did not delete your comment of August 3, 2011 2:26 PM. It appeared later because blogger had marked it as spam and I had to mark it as "not spam" That is why it appears showing the same time as it was posted. I do not find your comment offensive at all (why should I?). However, you may consider that the 50th ranked university in the US will have similar averages and minimum requirements.

To Anon August 3, 2011 11:24 PM: If you join in July 2011 in IISc, you will be allowed to have vacation for three months from May, 2012 to July, 2012.

Dear anon August 3, 2011 11:24 PM, the vacation rules vary by Institute. At IITM, you can avail only 60 days a year as vacation (or accrue 30 days as earned leave if you don't take any vacation) and you are required to work for 30 days during the vacations. If you joined in July 2011, you can take vacation only in Dec 2011 and June / July 2012.

I have a couple of questions about the Ramanujan fellowship that I am hoping you would have an answer to. I am in the process of applying for positions, so your inputs would be helpful.

a) As I understand it, the fellowship can be applied for before the candidate is made an offer from an institution and also after such an offer. Would you have any suggestions as to whether one should apply before or after having an offer?

b) If one has an offer for a position and the fellowship is availed of, does one have to surrender the position? If so, is are there any benefits (campus housing, medical coverage etc) that the candidate would lose because of taking up this fellowship?

c) Do the years spent as a fellow count towards 'experience' for promotions?

d) The fellowship is for 5 years, but the amount remains the same. Thus, there are chances that at some point in the 5 years, an applicant may incur a financial loss as a fellow as compared to if he was in a regular position. Are there any safeguards against this possibility? Can the fellow chose to terminate the fellowship before 5 years, for example?

(a) If IISc has to forward an applicant for Ramanujam, the person should already be a faculty or be offered a faculty position from IISc.

(b) Campus housing and medical benefits are provided to all faculty of IISc. They can chose to get their salary or fellowship, whichever they prefer at any point of time. They can, however, continue to get the contingency grant from the fellowship irrespective of whether they chose to get the salary from the fellowship.

"(a) If IISc has to forward an applicant for Ramanujam, the person should already be a faculty or be offered a faculty position from IISc."

This is contrary to the objective of Ramanujan fellowship which states "the fellowship is meant for brilliant scientists and engineers from all over the world to take up scientific research positions in India, especially those scientists who want to return to India from abroad".

If IISc has already offered someone a job, it means IISc has the potential to pay the faculty from its traditional source (the same source which pays permanent faculties). IISc should, IMO, exploit the Ramaujan and other similar fellowships to hire more researchers beyond its regular hires. After 5 years, if IISc is not happy with the Ramanujan fellow, it can easily let him go. This will be a win-win situation for all.

This will give IISc an opportunity to test a hire for 5 years and take a decision as to keep him or not. In a regular appointment by IISc, although it gives an initial contract of 5 years, IISc is tacitly obliged to extend the contract after 5 years whether or not the hire performs to the best of his capacity.

From the hire's prospective, if he sees he has a chance of getting regular position in IISc, he would stick to IISc, else he would explore his luck elsewhere. He will have a better chance in other places when he has Ramanujan fellowship and IISc tags with him.

From country's prospective, this will be beneficial because the Ramanujan fellow will be under pressure to perform so as to increase his chance of getting tenured, unlike the direct regular hires who tend to take a government job for granted and start living a babu's life from day one.

Therefore, if IISc considers only its existing faculties or candidates with an offer from IISc, the purpose of Ramanujan and other similar fellowships is squarely defeated.

What I meant is that the department has to show considerable interest in the Ramanujam fellow.

Considering the person is brilliant by definition of getting the fellowship and there are empty vacancies in all departments of IISc, how can the department justify to the administration that he should hired only temporarily as a Ramanujam fellow only and not as a regular member?

You may now ask why should the department be interested. Suppose I have a Ramanujam fellowship holder and want to work in the chemical engineering department of IIT-M but they are not interested, what should IIT-M do? Let us suppose the dean (admin) and director are interested in hiring me but the department is not. What is the situation? How and where can space and students be provided?

When there are enough vacancies, where is the need to "exploit the Ramaujan and other similar fellowships to hire more researchers beyond its regular hires."

I understand that the department should be interested in providing space and facilities. Therefore, all applications in Ramanujan Fellowship are forwarded by the host departments. That part is clear.

Say, one department in IISc received 10 applications. After screening and interview, say 5 of 10 are unaccceptable by IISc standards. From the top 5, say the best 1/2 were offered positions. In that case, IISc should encourage 3,4,5 candidates to try their luck with other fellowships. After 5 years, IISc compares the 1,2 candidates with 3,4,5 candidates. If 3,4,5 performance is very bad (compared to 1,2) then let them go. If they are comparable to 1,2, then take a call based on other factors (like the need of the department, etc). And if they are better than 1,2, then tenure them.

As we all know, independent research is a different ball game compared to postdoc/phd research. Since most selection processes for AsstProf are on the basis of the performance of the candidate as a postdoc/phd, it is nontrivial to predict the future of the candidate as an independent researcher. In that sense, Ramanujan and its likes are the perfect solutions to correct the errors in current recruitment process.

By the way, what is IISc' decision on Ramalingaswamy re-entry fellowship of DBT? Is it exclusive for candidates from abroad with offer from IISc?

Your argument has a flaw. Ramanujam fellowship are given to the very best in the country (say 10 per year). Thus the number of people who get it are much smaller than the number of people who actually get offers from IIT/IISc.

In your scenario, the candidate chosen by the department as 1 will mostly get the Ramanujam fellowship, the others will not.

All your arguments are based on the tenure system. Tenure systems work in the USA but are unlikely to work in India for reasons that I will discuss later in a separate post.

Thanks Prof Madras. There appears to be a bias towards Materials/Chemistry/Biology in the list of Ramanujan fellowships for 2010. Would you know if this is intentional or is it simply that these happened to be the more deserving candidates? It is surprising that there are no candidates from mechanical/electrical engineering and none from economics. A related question - are candidates from across different areas compared with each other in determining their worthiness or is each candidate judged independently?

I am a new faculty at IISc, and I am told that I will continue to keep the start-up even if I am selected and opt for DST Ramanujan Fellowship (which I do not know yet).

In addition, the institute will provide HRA, medical, retirement benefits, etc on top of the 75,000 pm salary from DST. So the fellowship will work better for a few initial years. When the net institute salary is higher, you can switch to it but still keep the 5 lac contingency grant from the fellowship.

Now, I know for sure that can't be right (I wouldn't at all complain if it is right!). I think this is due to some confusion about calculating TA. Earlier it was 3200+15%DA which would turn out to be 5366. Now your website says its 3200+DA, which is quite a lot (=17k).

Another question: I got an offer in March which is based on previous DA. If I join in Sept/Oct, would I still get the same DA, or the revised one?

The DA changes twice a year. It does not depend on your recruitment. The recruitment letter can only mention your Basic and AGP. The DA is adjusted for inflation and by the time the next pay commission comes, the DA will exceed your Basic+AGP.

Yes, you can keep start up irrespective of whether you get the fellowship or not.

"From the top 5, say the best 1/2 were offered positions. In that case, IISc should encourage 3,4,5 candidates to try their luck with other fellowships."

Continuing on the above statement, if Ramanujam fellowship will be given only to the best, are there other fellowships at the "next" level? In that way, IISc can recruit more faculty and not be burdened with tenuring all of them?

At IIT Bombay, all new faculty gets Young faculty award of Rs 1 Lacs/year for 3,4 years. My question is that if someone from IIT B gets awarded Ramanujan then can he/she will still be getting this young faculty award? If not then Ramanujan fellow at IITB will get almost equal salary as that of regular new faculty(~62,500+ 8500)

I believe the IITB Young Faculty Award is a misnomer. It is given to all new recruits, as an incentive to join IITB instead of some other IIX. It was started by the 1982 graduating batch (corresponds to mine!) which started the fund raising for this and I would think that this would hence not be connected to any other payments - salaries or fellowships. It is presently given for the first 3 years after joining (there is some talk of growing it to 4).

The Ramanujan fellowship is not what it used to be. Before the sixth pay commission, the fellowship was comparable to the pay of a full prof with HRA. It was revised a couple of years ago (to the present 75K per month) - yet the current value is only about equal to that of an entry level assistant professor. If DST wants it to be prestigious, the value should be pegged at, say, 1 lakh per month as of now and grow annually with DA.

On a related note, IIX have no serious budget constraints on meeting faculty salaries and this is not preventing hiring. So, the fellowships helping IIX is not a valid argument - it may help bring good candidates to IIX instead of them going somewhere else. This too may not happen unless the fellowship is revised as I suggest above or unless the fellowships are made additive (like the Bhatnagar or JC Bose).

On a related note, IIX have no serious budget constraints on meeting faculty salaries and this is not preventing hiring. So, the fellowships helping IIX is not a valid argument - it may help bring good candidates to IIX instead of them going somewhere else.

Prof. Sriram: I don't think the IIXs are stretched for funds for salary, but, Govt. of India regulations do not allow for a compensation structure that tracks market conditions. So, this is indeed a serious issue as far as the hiring of new faculty is concerned.

In certain fields like Aerospace or Chemistry, while the salary that an IIX new hire makes might be very attractive, in engineering fields, such as CS or EECS, the current salary of an Asst. Professor is about 25% of what they can make in the industry in India. The government regulations do not allow for a distinction between the "fields" of teaching. In our system, a full professor of English at an IIT makes much more than an Asst. Professor of EE/CS, which, I find quite amusing.

It would help if the salaries of new hires had a "market-component", that the IIX was free to determine. Every time in the last few years I have talked to my friends about joining my IIX, they ask me the salary. Then, the conversation ends. I am in a field, where current Asst. Prof. salaries are about 25% of what they can make in the industry in India.

So, any fellowships that supplement the salary for such people will definitely help. Or, do you have any advice for me on how we can attract good faculty with 25% of what they can make in the private sector?

Thanks newfaculty. Since there is no last date for applying for the fellowship, would anyone here know approximately how many times a year and during which months the results come out? And if the fellowship amount is updated, do the current fellows receive the updated amount?

Anon@Aug 7 9:44 pm says "So, any fellowships that supplement the salary for such people will definitely help" and my point was that the Ramanujan and Inspire fellowships and similar are not supplementary but substitute - so they are of no use in this context. I have indicated supplementary type fellowships and these are typically impossible to get at the entry level. Even the IITB supplement is only of the order of 10% of salary, cant be of much help in addressing a 4x factor difference. It is unlikely that IITs or IISc would go towards "market" driven salaries in the near future.

A CS faculty in IIT with small consultancy makes around Rs. 12 lakh a year as salary, add medical benefits, LTC etc. The CTC comes to around Rs. 20 lakhs per year. If this is 25% of what a regular CS person earns in the industry, please let me know what is the name of this industry and whether this is the average of Rs. 80 lakhs per year.

As I said earlier,

""So given that IISc provide abundant academic freedom, very low teaching load, reasonable grants and free graduate students, the stress is limited. Considering the stress free life with minimal work, the pay of around Rs. 1 lakh per month is really worth it.

@Anon above (who, I think is Gupta). Are we even comparing apples to apples here? 1 lakh p.m. salary is for senior faculty. Fresh hires would get about 50k p.m. and 'on contract' positions from IIXs. In industry (EE/CS) these guys are getting about 2 lakh p.m.. I don't see how consultancy, benefits etc can make up for the difference.

The argument that many use to suggest consultancy as part of income ignores that consultancy earnings are some conjectured/anticipated income, so they need to be weighed with the probability of getting such options. To say that one can make up the difference of 1.5 lakhs p.m. is saying that you are guaranteed that you will get consultancy projects of that magnitude every month from the day you begin. If the chances of getting projects are lower, then the amounts have to be larger. All this talk about consultancy incomes is highly far-fetched, and mostly wishful thinking, in my opinion.

Likewise with medical benefits. One doesn't get paid in lieu of hospital bills for illnesses that don't occur - only in the event that you are hospitalised are you compensated. So, in theory, a healthy person earns nothing from these benefits.

Finally, consultancy takes time away from one's core duties, especially research. So earning can come at the cost of excellence or fame. In this whole argument, I think one has to make peace with the fact that life as a successful academic researcher in India will involve significant financial sacrifices, at least in the initial years.

The last result for Ramanujan fellowship (according to DST website) came around the end of Dec 2010. They have now removed earlier announcements, but the one before that was probably around June/July-2010. Based on these, we can guess that they make decisions twice an year, one around June-August and other towards the end of the year.

If the fellowship amount is increased, all current fellows' salary will get updated. This happened when they increased the amount from 50k to the current 75k pm (according to an attachment you can find along with the advertisement of fellowship on the website).

Critically speaking, one can argue that on average the amount that a fresh IIX hire will earn through consultancy will be at most 20% of what he would get in industry. This is because IIXs allow only 1 in 5 days for consultancy. So at best, each new hire is working for a company 20% of his time. Why would the average of all consultancy charges that companies pay to fresh hires be any more than 20% of what they would pay a regular hire, considering that both would have roughly the same qualifications and experience? Therefore if a CS/EE type of fresh hire is expecting to anything in the ball park of 50-75% of the best industry salary as consultancy earnings, that is highly unlikely, and I think impossible. In fact, as more and more well qualified people enter industry, consultancy earnings of faculty (especially those who do theoretical/ resource-light work) are likely to reduce. Please correct me if you think there is a flaw in this reasoning.

@ankur: YOur points above are quite valid. I have one thing to add. If you get an EE/CS person with 10 years of industrial experience, of which only 3 are "post-PhD", you cannot compensate them in any way for the 7 years of experience that "does not exist" under GOI rules. The industry counts this experience, and such a person currently makes 36-40 lpa in EE/CS fields in India.

It is typical for many good candidates to spend a few years in the industry after M.S, before they go back to school for their PhDs. Such people are penalized more by government rules on hiring.

Imagine a person with 10 years of post MSEE experience, and 0 years of post PhD experience. While he/she would make upwards of 36 lpa in some fields, an IIT can hire hire only as an APOC. And IISc will not even hire this person!

Consulting is like a "bonus" in the industry. When I was in the industry, on some years, I would earn 10-20% of my salary in bonus, while in other years, there would be none. Same with consulting, if you add that number to an IIX prof's CTC, you have to add it to the industrial job to compare apples to apples.

All companies pay for health plans (much better quality than IIX's) and nontaxable components to take care of LTC etc. The retirement plans in the private sector are much better than the new pension scheme in IIXs, which does not have defined benefits.

If you value the fact that you cannot be fired for any reason, then, that is probably a benefit. But, most IIX hires are good enough that they don't need to worry about getting fired in the private sector.

@anons above: My post was not meant to encourage the generic bashing of faculty salaries. I still believe that for the academically inclined, the salaries are decent. Indeed I have applied for these positions with full knowledge of the salaries. However, I have often had the feeling that some illusory impressions were being created about consultancy as a huge source of earning and I thought some reality check was needed. Of course the salaries could be better, but everything about this world could be better.

Please do your calculation. If you are comparing CTC, then you have to add LTC etc.

Regarding consultancy, you can do it only 1 day in a week but that does not mean it is restricted to 20% of salary. I earn around 5 lakhs per year on consultancy, some of my colleagues make much more. The current charges for consultancy is a minimum of Rs. 2000 per hour and goes up to Rs. 10,000 per hour. My senior colleagues earn the latter but I earn the former.

@Gupta I was ignoring HRA, but I was also considering 'on contract' positions. Perhaps 50k is an underestimate. Thanks for the correction.

However, argument is still holds. My bound on consultancy income was 20% of best industry salary. Best industry salary for EE/CS is 20-24 lakh p.a.. for entry level. With 5 lakh in consultancy income you are indeed achieving this bound.

I can not understand why there is so much focus on salary. If u think that u can make more money in industry then please go for it. The very fact that u r interested in Faculty position at IITs( this I can assume because u r reading this blog)suggest that you are looking at overall satisfaction.... No need to mention that money is one of the means to satisfy someone, but other means do exits which we r not accounting for..

Money is not everything, but also remember that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

IIXs are able to screen monkeys out pretty well, but the end result is that there is a severe faculty crunch in some specialized areas, and we are simply not able to fill such positions, since no one is willing to take a 75% pay cut to come to academia.

The logic about consulting is a complete hogwash. You can never fill up all of your 52 days in a year. In some years, you get none. IISc takes 40% of the consulting income you bring in, and the rest is taxable (another 30% gone). In US universities, you keep what you bring in.

Money may not be that important to you today, but after you look at how much you saved from your first paycheck, and how that adds up to your retirement/buying a house/other family commitments, you might change your mind. If IIX is the best paying job you can get in India, you live with the consequences. But, if you have to take a 75% pay cut to take up the job, after you look at your first paycheck, you will tihnk hard about it. Most people, do the calculations before joining. Hence, the inability to get good people in CS/EE.

2. A not-so-famous professor in physics in the university earns the same as the potential Nobel-prize physics professor in IISc. This is amusing, ridiculous, stupid etc. etc.

3. The salary of the director of IIX is fixed at the secretary of India i.e., Rs.80,000. The head of executive officers of civil services of India is the Cabinet Secretary and is paid Rs. 90,000. Therefore, all salaries are scaled based on this. Why should government salaries be scaled based on the highest government position?This is amusing, ridiculous, stupid etc. etc.

Other things that have been discussed and concluded are:

4. The lifestyle of a CS professor in IIX is like a beggar compared to a CS person employed in the industry.

5. The *average* income from other sources (includes consultancy, GATE/JEE, Swarnjayanthi, JC Bose, Bhatanagar, two fellows etc) is around Rs. 5 lakhs/year, which is peanuts.

6. If you pay peanuts, you will get only monkeys. Since, IITs pay only peanuts to CS/EE faculty, the people who join are mostly...

6. Please do not talk about money, satisfaction is not obtained with money alone.

Can we stop this discussion here, please? As iitmsriram put it,"It is unlikely that IITs or IISc would go towards "market" driven salaries in the near future." None of us here have any influence on increasing salaries for potential faculty or existing faculty. So, talking about the above issues result in no discernible use. If you still want to discuss this, why don't you read some 500 comments on this issue under Pay scales etc.

Dear Giridhar: Nice summary! Since this is a post for prospective faculty, salary is one of the key variables, and merits discussion. Your sarcasm is not lost on us, but in the "new" India of an economist prime minister, money is an important thing to have.

I will stop here. Only one suggestion for people who might be interested (Giri's sarcasm notwithstanding): peanuts taste better with black-salt and red pepper. Try it after you get your first paycheck :-)

This may not directly fit to the scope of the blog. But since the host is knowledgeable in such cases, I would like to know his opinion on, whether I can contact the advisor/secretary/sceintist C/D etc in the contact list of certain DST fellowship to ask if they have received my application which I sent by post and expect it to arrive 2 days after the deadline and if they are considering it. Which way it works best, email or telephone? Would my contact have any counter effect? thanks for your help.

You should call and find out. You are only asking whether they have received the application, not whether you are selected. Therefore, there is no counter effect. Sometimes, if you call, the concerned advisor/scientist will ask you to send an email. Send an email. If you receive no reply in a week, call again.

The list from their website shows 51 applicants of which 15 were successful for Ramanujan fellowship last time.

I divide the candidates into following 3 groups where group 2 has 4 subgroups. The 1st column is the name of group, 2nd column is the number of applicants from that groups and third column is the number of successful candidates from that group:

This clearly shows that the DST does not wish to consider regular faculty members of IISc (or other places in India) for this fellowship. I have no data about what happened in earlier years. I have no data about how many of the 14 successful postdocs had offer from IISc or other places in India.

Hi All,Does anyone have a good idea of take home salary and benefits of being a scientist in RGCB (Rajiv Gandhi Centre for Biotech) in C or E-I category? I need to make some quick decisions. Other than the RGCB website, where they mention the salary, there is no information about housing, leave/ holidays, initial funding, etc.Thank you very much in advance. This help is much apprecciated.Sunitha

There are around 100 Ramanujam fellowships given over the last five years. IISc has 11 of them.

You seem to imply that 5 faculty selected in IISc in 2011 is small. It is not. 14 faculty joined IISc last year, of which 5 are fellowship holders. This is not small. Further, some listed as postdocs in the list are currently in IISc.

You might notice in the current and previous notice, some faculty in IISc have been denied the fellowship. One of them has applied for the Swarnajayanthi fellowship while the other is already a Swarnajayanthi fellowship holder.

Sunita:Scientist C is basic of 18750 with 6600. Scientist E-1 is 21900 with 7600 AGP and is similar to assistant professor on contract in IIX. Leave/holidays rules are similar for all government jobs. Regarding housing, you have to contact there.

You misread the earlier comment. None of the 5 existing Asst Profs of IISc who applied for Ramanujan in the last round were successful.

We of course do not know how many of the 14 successful postdocs had 'regular faculty offer' from their present institutions before they were awarded Ramanujan as against the number of successful candidates who were 'only recommended for the fellowship but not offered a regular position' by their present host institution.

I am soon going to join IIT-M as AP (with two increments). Can anyone kindly let me know which quarters I am entitled to and are good to choose to stay with the family? Any input in this regard would be much appreciated.

Congratulations on your offer from IITB! I have earlier written about the housing options for new faculty in IITB (in response to a question by Ankur Kulkarni) in the comments (possibly the previous pinned post). Prof. Sriram has also compared (in the same post) the housing options in various IITs. Please go through these and if you have more specific queries, I will be happy to answer.

I thought I would inject some hard data about volume and value of consulting projects at IITM. For the last fiscal year, almost 200 faculty members handled assignments with a total value of about 39 crores. For the previous fiscal, about 150 faculty members handled about 30 crores. There are over 450 faculty members on the rolls as of today, so somewhat less than 50% of faculty members are consulting (for whatever reason). Those who are, are doing quite OK with an average value from above data coming to about 20 lakhs per head. There are a handful who handle upwards of 50 lakhs in consulting annually, so the average figure is reasonably representative. IITM takes 20% - 28% depending on the type of consulting project (retainer, research based etc), so for many of those who do consulting, it is quite lucrative. The main consultancy earners are in the construction line - Civil and Ocean Engineering; in several such departments, the value of consulting assignments exceeds the value of sponsored research projects.

I appreciate your helpful gesture in clarifying queries posted by hundreds of would-be faculty-position holders. Your blog is highly informative and extremely useful to us all.

I had a quick question: if a person has a PhD in engineering from a decent US school (top 20) with around 16 papers (7 authored + 9 co-authored, including a 1st-authored Nature/Science paper) and around 35 conference presentations (authored + co-authored), but has no post-doc experience at all (so fresh out of grad-school), then, could you please comment on what his/her chances are to get an Asst. Prof. position at IISc or TIFR ? Or is a post-doc a compulsory ?

To Anon @8:11am,I have the similar profile without any postdoc exp. Infact I am burning my midnight oil to prepare slides for my PhD defense next week. I got the offer from 2 iits as "Asst. Prof on contract" one with 3 yrs on-contract another being so kind to offer me 2-yr on-contract. This is kind of tenure system. So your chances are good. my whole application/interview process was really smooth, easy and fast. may be i was lucky to apply in time. But I was really amazed to get my offer letter in hand within just 3 months from the day when i sent my 1st e-mail to HOD. But then the big question is abt this 2-3 yr tenure-ship. I posted a question few wks back and i turned out to be joker :)). But this serious for me to make the decision and i dont have any cluse abt this tenure-system. Anyways good luck.Cheers!!Raj

Sorry i forgot to write one thing.You dont need to fly back home for the interview or seminar. you just send an e-mail to HOD then they will direct you from there. Its fast and smooth. you can give seminar/interview via video-conferencing mode.-Raj

Just to add to anon@ Aug 10 10:53 pm, there are two kinds of contracts - one is because you are a fresh PhD and the other is because you could not appear in person for the seminar and interview. In the first case, with the requisite experience, the infirmity is cured so rollover is automatic with no need for another interview. In the second case, this is not so and the permanent position will come only after an interview by another selection panel. This is not uniform across all IIX and there are variations on this. But in general, unless you pull something really dumb, there should be no problems in going from on contract to permanent.

iitmsriram: what you mentioned applies to all IITs more or less. But, IIsc has a contract for ALL assistant professors, even those with 3 years experience. The contract is renewed after 5 years of appointment, when an option is given to be on contract for another term of 5 years, or be permanent. Again, it is relatively easy to make the transition at the end of 5 years.

What are the startup grants offered by IIT's (both new and old)?I read your comment on New Prof in new India's blog where you said that some new IIT's give up to 2-3 crores to setup labs?Is this offered to everyone who demonstrates need of equipment etc. or on a competitive basis?Thanks!Himanshu

This is my first post. I have about 3 years post-doctoral experience and interested in applying for Assistant Professor post in IIT Hyderabad. Since I have a family, I tried searching in the net for info on facilities near the temporary campus at IIT like schools for kids, shopping center, faculty accommodation etc., but without success. Does any one have more info on life for a faculty at IIT Hyderabad? Appreciate any useful information.Cheers.

Thanks for your comments (anon above). Right now I am employed abroad and confused about this. I will of course try my luck with established IIT's first. In case that doesnt work out, I wanted to know which among the new IIT's is good for someone with a family to settle. Appreciate any suggestions.Cheers

As a new faculty (not at IITH though) I do want to say that institutions far away from the metros comes with its own baggage of problems along with the problem of infrastructure at the institute. Where there are things (ex. schools for kids) you will face the problem of quality and choice. For other things (just as an ex. a gym) you might not find one ! Or say you are into some specific type of hobby, forget it.

These places are usually nice to retire (for medical help though, you are better of depending on God) but if you have kids and think that you want to raise you kid a certain way you have to make many compromises.

As for the science, I am myself beginning to question the consequences of working in isolation - number of students, time to get things etc etc.

Do not mean to scare you but this is based on just my own experience .....

As a prospective applicant who is seriously thinking about an academic career in India, the issues raised by Anon on August 12, 2011 6:02 PM and the follow up posts (facilities such as education for kids and accommodation at new IIX) scare me. Can someone provide any information about these points- particularly w.r.t. IISER-pune?

I am new faculty at IIX and now trying to write a proposal to DST for some research grant. I have written proposals before in USA but this is first time with DST. I would be very grateful if someone can extend me few guidelines and share if you know any resources. Is there any limit how long particular heads should be (like Technical Details, Origin of the Proposal, Definition of the problem etc.) Prof. Giri and Prof. Sriram your input on this issue also would be helpful for us.

For writing proposals, format and the style, consult some senior faculty in your department.

IISER-pune cannot be compared to a new IIT without facilities. It is right in the middle of the town.

Himanshu: New IITs/IISERs give lot of money for young faculty if they want to establish a facility that will be useful to many people. For example, in chemistry, it may mean for XRD/TEM/FTIR/Raman etc. You set up this facility as a primary user but let lot of others use it. Old IITs/IISc also gives money for these central facilities but these are usually given to established faculty.

Good Morning.Any recently successful IISER applicants out there who are following this blog, please share your experiences. Any information relating to, but not limited to, how many years of post-doc experience you had at the time of application, how many publications and indicative impact factor range, how long it took for you receiving an offer from application date etc etc. I/others would really appreciate it. Thanks.

Anon: 14-Aug:IISER-Pune is smack in the middle of the big city. The new campus is still in the building stage. May be existing IISE-P faculty with school going kids, can shed some light on the accommodation and school infrastructure?

Dear Prof. Giri,Sorry to hack your blog. But i think its not too much out of the context!! Actually my response is to Abi's post bout 2-body problem I dont have any blog, and Abi doesn't allow anonymous to respond, hence yours is the last resort.Well coming back to the 2-body problem, I can say that i am the victim of the same. You and several others are correctly mentioned that there are examples of couples in the same insti and also in the same dept. Although the no of cases in same dept is very few. From my analysis, whoever got the position as a couple in the same insti were just in the right time at the right place. In one case i knew both of them were B.Tech from the same IIT and one of them was topper So that made their case to go back to their home insti. In the other cases, dept needed badly those people in their research areas and in some other cases they were just simply brilliant. Now I would like you all to take a look at those cases who got rejected. there are many who are brilliant, better than the existing faculty but still denied. They simply dont encourage a couple. In two IITs they told me on my face that they just dont take any couple because they had some bad experience. We always talk about judging a faculty candidate independently. We recruit them based on just merit. But honestly, having seen the faculty recruitment in the last 5 yrs in IIT, I have seen several spouses got rejected who did their phd in top 10 school in US, fantastic CV and everything, but Dept get biased when they judge a faculty spouse. They end up hiring a candidate who has similar or lower CV and did not prosper after getting hired.So you can say there are many cases in IIX where people dont get success or they just faded away. So there is no guarantee that a spouse will deliver. But can we really make sure that when we judge a faculty spouse we remain unbiased. What I wanted to mean here that the problem is in our perceptions, our conviction. Its much more complicated than the data shows to you like "IISc has the casefaculty couples who have put in 30, 15, 7 and 0 (just offered) years of service." When we reject a faculty spouse we just say S/he is incompetent. And we all know there is no discrete measurement parameter to judge a faculty candidate. We always take the chance to invest on a candi who has good CV and skills. But when we face a faculty spouse we just dont want to take that chance, hence S/he is incompetent. Well, in my case, my wife published more papers using various fellowships than the existing faculty in the last 5-6 yrs. I always knew that she is better than me. now we are in the same insti ofcourse in one of the new IIX. But I can feel how much it hurts when one gets rejected showing her/his incompetency just bcoz his/her spouse is a faculty in the same insti. It is big time now that we realize this delicate problem when we sit in a faculty recruitment committee especially when there are lots of well qualified couple who want to come back to their motherland.

Having said that I am not in favor of taking all the couples. But we should not deny a candidate who did phd in good univ with good advisor and who ha a good cv. We just need to more careful so that a faculty candidate is properly evaluated. We should put his/her case under the high resolution microscope as S/he is faculty spouse. Instead we should rather invest on that faculty candidate. We should take the risk. take the chance on him/her.ThanksAdam & Eve

Can anyone please tell me why the IISc takes 40% of consulting proceeds from faculty? I have heard that some IITs take as little as 10-15%. Does IISc provide any special services to get the consulting work or any value added services afterwards? If 40% is given to IISc, and another 30% of the remaining is paid as income tax, 58% of the money is gone. This sounds atrocious - to work hard on a project and get less than half of it!

Also, can the IIXs waive consulting "cuts" for new faculty for the first 6 years (till they become Associate Professor)? It will go a long way in showing "good intentions", which seem to be lacking on the administration's part.

Prof. Madras, has this issue ever been raised by IISc faculty through their association/senate etc ?

The average earnings through consultancy for many IISc faculty seems to be around 20 lakhs per year. Institute takes 40% of this as overheads and thus faculty earn only Rs. 12 lakhs per year and around Rs. 10 lakhs in salary per year. Really pitiable.

Instead of saying that IISc admin may not be in favor of reducing overheads, as a senior faculty and a powerful administrative figure, you should try to get the overheads reduced. What is the use of simply writing it in a blog?

Your information is incorrect. 20 lpa in consulting is made by "star" consultants. 5-6 lpa is average. I am a new faculty member in IISc, and in the last two years, I haven't received a single consulting offer, although I am in an engineering field in which many practical applications exist.

Last week, I was approached by a company with a prospective consulting offer, but, when I looked at the numbers i would finally make, I wondered if it is really worth it.

The 40% overhead should be waived by IISc for junior faculty, who are paid a lot less anyway. Bring back the overhead when they get promoted, but reduce the quantum:10-15% is a good number, but 40% almost screams in your face - don't consult!

Instead of complaining here, why don't all the young faculty in IISc get together and hold dharna, marches and protest against the administration for having high overheads? Fasting unto death (or 15 days) before the tata statue may also yield fruitful results.

What is the point of complaining in a blog maintained by a person interested only in publishing papers?

I am joining IIT-H from US very soon. What is the typical relocation reimbursement limit? I assume from the blog it is Rs. 1 lakh. Is that correct? Nothing was specified in the offer letter as such. Are the tickets need to be only from Air India and does it cover for spouse and kid too? I would appreciate if anyone can clarify. Also, I have a baby which is six months old. How about the medical facilities around the temporary campus? I am little concerned. Any suggestions from the experienced people will be highly appreciated.

I think if you book air India then issue would be straight forward. However, if you book any other airlines, which I believe you can, then your reimbursement would be equivalent to one way economy class fair by air India. In that case any non air India one ticket from anywhere in the west is much more expensive that one way air India fair; and same is true with two way ticket with non air India. So if you do not book with air India you have to pay the difference on your own. Hope this helps.

In my case flying by Air India was much costlier, and so I flew by non-air India. Since my offer letter from IISc does not mention anything about which airline to fly, I am hoping IISc will reimburse my and my family tickets. DId any one have an experience where IISc did not reimburse moving expenses because you did not fly air india? I appreciate any of your experience on that.

On a different note, yet relevant, what is one’s opinion or experience about foreign savings before returning to India as a faculty member? Most of the R2I (return to India) threads are dominated by software professionals and hence the savings they talk about are in the range of 100 to 200K plus. So what would be an idealistic ball park number for a post-doc/graduate student returning home - from your experience and/or from what you heard.

PS: Dr. Madras - I hope you will let this posting stay for comments that helps prospective and curious returnees. Thanks.

If IT guys talk about 100-200 K saving for R2I, the ballpark for postdocs could >10 or >20 H-index and research project that would have >10% return in 3 years. Note, in academics the unit for rate of interest is expressed as impact factor.

Would not it be too much to ask for a >10 h-index from a post-doc/recent graduate transitioning to a new faculty recruit? Latest assistant professor hires at couple of large R1 state schools in US have h-index less than 10.

Regarding savings before R2I, it depends on what you need and when. An immediate list would include furniture for your home, a bike, a car (maybe!), school admission for your kid(s). These days some of these can be bought in instalments or loan. In long term you may want to buy a home which again will come with a loan. Therefore, anything above $20K should not be bad. Of course sky is the limit...

>A decent apartment near IISc costs $200 K. IISc gives >excellent accommodation under a peepal tree, so you >may prefer that over buying a home.

Thanks for this. I didn't realize house prices in B'lore were so high. With my savings I certainly won't be able to afford a decent apartment. But if I am allotted a tree with a trunk diameter of at least 2m I will be very tempted.

I think the quantum of foreign savings that one should aim for depends on what one's goals are. It would help if someone with experience living on campus may provide information on the following. Using this one can work backwards to determine savings based on your own goals and timelines.

a) how much an AP on contract with a household of 2+1 or 2+2 adults and children manages to save with a (upper-)middle class lifestyle. You consider separate cases of two income or one income households.

2. Buying a car: A decent family car (hatchback) in India costs about 3-5 lakhs. If you want to take out a loan with 20% down, that is about 1 lakh at most.

3. House: Don't even think of buying in cities like Bangalore right now. There is a massive property bubble in Asian countries. If you don't like institute accomodation, you can rent an extremely decent 2 BHK close to the campus for 15-20k pm. They might ask for a deposit of 6-12 months of rent, you can usually get it down to about 3-4 months. So, that would be another 1 lakh, approximately.

4. Rainy day fund: I think it is a mature thing to keep 6 months of your expenses in a bank account. For a family of 4, that would be about 50k pm. So, 3 lakhs is a good idea.

5. Keep 1 lakh in bank for medical emergencies.

6. IISc pays a decent wage, and the job is more or less permanent. So, I wouldn't worry too much beyond that. So, if I add it all up, that comes to - 8 lakhs.

That will be a little less than USD $20K, or a year of an Assistant Prof.'s salary. If you have that in your savings, it will come in handy.

Don't worry too much about savings, the key to happiness goes way beyond your bank account. But, my estimate is to simply help you plan. Once you join the institute, you should max out your new pension scheme (NPS) contribution (10% of basic+da, matched by GOI), and get life insurance. Talk to a financial planner if you need to.

It depends on what you define as "near". One thing that goes against new IISc faculty is that the areas close to the institute (Malleshwaram, Sanjaynagar, Sadashivnagar) are as expensive as pricey school districts in the US. So, a 3 BHK apartment indeed costs around USD 200 K + in such areas, a single family home will cost about USD 500K+, sometimes, more expensive than US!

But, there are two things. Renting is quite affordable. Or you can buy in many places that would be a 30 minute commute for you. The prices would be almost half.

Finally, I have given this advice to many friends who wanted to choose between IISc and IITs. If you live in a city for 30+ years, you are tempted to buy a house. It is only natural. But, you don't know if you like the city till you have spent 3+ years there. At that point, you might decide if you want to buy a house in Bangalore, and more important, if you can afford it.

After you get promoted to the next level, you can move to an IIT of your choice, and buy a house if you like the place. Bangalore apartments may be unaffordable with faculty salaries, but there are many affordable cities in India with IITs, where you can teach.

Prof. Madras – there is little to no helpful pointers here from contributors about IISERs, which I would understand that this blog is primarily focused on IITs/IISc faculty aspirants. However, I wonder if you would be interested in inviting any IISER faculty to address posters questions relating to their organizations, on a time to time basis. This would help many others whose candidature won’t fit in IITs/IISc. I hope you could offer your kind help for several, in this way as well. Thanks.

Even the majority of IIT or IISc faculty who read do not write here unless there is discussion about money. iitmsriram is a notable exception but most of others seem to be worried only about the money. A quick search in this blog shows that any pay scale related issue gets the highest number of comments, while issues like lack of Ph.D students, output of research etc get minimal attention.

I am writing a project proposal and have to give the budget estimates for different heads. I would appreciate if someone expert out there could let me know that what should be the budget for one JRF for one year in IIT/IISc. Many thanks in advance for your input.

A day or so ago I saw a detailed comment on various expenses that one must prepare for as a new faculty, but I don't see it today. Could you please check what may be wrong? (The post appeared after my previous post @August 30, 2011 10:25 PM but before the next one @August 31, 2011 3:22 AM)

I am a new faculty at one of the old IITs and intending to submit a project proposal to DST. My budget estimates for three year project are around 90 lakh rupees, where my instrument which is very basic but essential for my research costs around 70 lakh rupees. My scientific arguments are seems to be convincing; considering and emphasizing I am a new faculty what are the chances of getting funding of 90 lakhs from DST? Can I combine my seed money from the institute with this project to reduce the budget estimates or am I not allowed to do so? Kindly provide input and some guidelines in this regard. I would really appreciate that.

Dear Prof. Giri,Sorry to hack your blog. But i think its not too much out of the context!! Actually my response is to Abi's post bout 2-body problem I dont have any blog, and Abi doesn't allow anonymous to respond, hence yours is the last resort.Well coming back to the 2-body problem, I can say that i am the victim of the same. You and several others are correctly mentioned that there are examples of couples in the same insti and also in the same dept. Although the no of cases in same dept is very few. From my analysis, whoever got the position as a couple in the same insti were just in the right time at the right place. In one case i knew both of them were B.Tech from the same IIT and one of them was topper So that made their case strong to go back to their home insti. In another case, dept needed badly those people in their research areas and in some other cases they were just simply exceptional. Now I would like you all to take a look at those cases who got rejected. there are many who are brilliant, better than the existing faculty but still denied. They simply dont encourage a couple. In two IITs they told me on my face that they just didnt take any couple because they had some bad experience. We always talk about judging a faculty candidate independently. We recruit them based on just merit. But honestly, having seen the faculty recruitment in the last 5 yrs in IIT, I have seen several spouses got rejected who did their phd in top 10 school in US, fantastic CV and everything, but Dept got biased when they did judge a faculty spouse. They ended up hiring a candidate who had similar or lower CV and did not prosper after getting hired.So you can say there are many cases in IIX where people dont get success or they just faded away. So there is no guarantee that a spouse will deliver. But can we really make sure that when we judge a faculty spouse we remain unbiased. What I wanted to mean here that the problem is in our perceptions, our conviction. Its much more complicated than the data shows to you like "IISc has the casefaculty couples who have put in 30, 15, 7 and 0 (just offered) years of service." When we reject a faculty spouse we just say S/he is incompetent. And we all know there is no discrete measurement parameter to judge a faculty candidate. We always take the chance to invest on a candidate who has good CV and skills. But when we face a faculty spouse we just dont want to take that chance, hence S/he is incompetent. Well, in my case, my wife published more papers using various fellowships than the existing faculty in the last 5-6 yrs after getting rejected. I always knew that she was better than me. now we are in the same insti ofcourse in one of the new IIX. But I can feel how much it hurts when one gets rejected showing her/his incompetency just bcoz his/her spouse is a faculty in the same insti. It is big time now that we realize this delicate problem when we sit in a faculty recruitment committee especially when there are lots of well qualified couples who want to come back to their motherland.

Having said that I am not in favor of taking all of them, just because they are couples. But we should not deny a candidate who did phd in good univ with good advisor and who has a good CV. We just need to be more careful so that a faculty candidate is properly evaluated. We should NOT put his/her case under the high resolution microscope just because S/he is faculty spouse. Instead we should rather invest on that faculty candidate. We should take the risk. take the chance on him/her.Thanks

Well the long post on 2-body problem is not written by me, but I just posted it because, i have not seen any response to that. I dunno who had written that, but i just noticed that. Its a serious prob for guys like me who are looking for dual position in IITs. -Ramesh

I am a new faculty at one of the old IITs and intending to submit a project proposal to DST. My budget estimates for three year project are around 90 lakh rupees, where my instrument which is very basic but essential for my research costs around 70 lakh rupees. My scientific arguments are seems to be convincing; considering and emphasizing I am a new faculty what are the chances of getting funding of 90 lakhs from DST? Can I combine my seed money from the institute with this project to reduce the budget estimates or am I not allowed to do so? Kindly provide input and some guidelines in this regard. I would really appreciate that.

With burgeoning new faculties in India, accompanied by burgeoning questions on how the system works (pay scale, grant proposals, training students, collaborations, travel funds, reimbursement etc.); may be now is the time for all the silent senior faculty readers and the speakers at last year’s Boston YIM event (may be from this year as well) who portrayed/shall portray rosy picture on Indian academia – to jump in and participate on this portal and address prospective/new hires questions; since it would be too much for a person or two to answer all of these.

The senior faculty in IIT/IISc will be glad to visit Boston and speak at events and also help if sufficient remuneration is provided in form of foreign visits, payment by government agencies for such purposes.

Do not ask them to help them for free. How do you get them to help you if you have already joined IIT/IISc. Simple, fall at their feet.

(I have not included unforeseen expenses, and eating out, since this is a minimalist budget. A decent meal for two in a high-end Bangalore restaurant can cost anywhere between INR 500-1000. Movie for two will set you back by about INR 300 in a multiplex. Personally, we like to reserve these for special occasions.)

I am trying to fill in a form for new faculty at an IIX where they ask for details of dependents. I have an unmarried sister, retired father who receives pension from a state govt (his total pension is not taxable) and mother (homemaker). Would any of these be considered my dependents? Can I put them on the institute health insurance scheme?

The definition of family is the employee's spouse, two unmarried children or divorced/separated daughter, parents (or stepmother but not stepfather), unmarried minor brothers, nmarried/divorced/separated sister wholly dependent on the employee.

Wholly dependent implies that the salary of the person is not more than some value, which usually differs from place to place.

In your case, sister, mother become eligible and your father will be eligible if his income from all sources is less than this value.

In IISc,

Father and Mother shall be deemed to be dependent if they normally reside with the applicant, and their combined income from all sources is less than Rs 3500/-pm.

Regarding DST funding, it differs from PAC (project advisory comm) to PAC. All PACs can allot up to Rs. 50 lakhs for a three year project. Anything above than that has to be scrutinized and granted by a bigger committee, if recommended by PAC.

Some PACs may be unwilling to grant large amounts for a new faculty, some PACs may be willing to do so. Check with your seniors in your department in IIT.

I was merely trying to help with typical numbers for expenses. I don't understand why you have to take pot-shots at Giridhar for everything. I know him personally - he is an extremely kind and helpful gentleman, and many new faculty owe it so much to him for all the help he has provided them.

You come across with an ‘old’, but not ‘mature’ etiquette. You should have spend those couple of minutes in addressing at least one question from a new faculty/faculty aspirant, rather taking shots at others' personal matters.

IISc_new _prof estimate is about correct regarding expenses. The in hand salary will be around 50 K for an Assistant prof. during first three years, so you will save possibly around 10-20 K including that you will eat outside sometimes or go to movies or go for small outings. This savings will be the min. amount if there is no other income source. Housing in Vijnanapura (where I stay) is decent barring some maintenance issues.

Thanks to all who share their experiences and opinions to the new aspirants. I have couple of offers from old IIT. However, I am waiting for the third one which I am interested in. It will take probably a month and half to know the result. But I am left with only one more month to send the letter of acceptance. Now my question is: Can someone decline the offer after having accepted the same?Thanks a lot.

About IIT in Karnataka, it seems to be a fast one pulled by Law Minister Veerappa Moily. There is no mention of it anywhere except in a speech given by Moily - see http://www.deccanherald.com/content/25455/iit-muddenahalli-11th-plan.html. See also how Moily fudges the statement made by Minister of State for HRD Purandeswari (IITs operate under HRD ministry) about 10th plan and 11th plan. 11th plan is current plan running from 2007 - 2012 and all 8 current new IITs are part of this plan. The only new IIT in the 10th plan was IIT Roorkee. The original proposal submitted by the MHRD to the planning commission in 2006 for the 11th plan only talked about 3 new IITs, but this was expanded to 8 at the implementation stage. In the planning commission documents (available at the planning commission web site; vol 2 page 29), the number of new IITs is mentioned as 8 only.

The senior faculty in IIT/IISc will be glad to visit Boston and speak at events and also help if sufficient remuneration is provided in form of foreign visits, payment by government agencies for such purposes.

Do not ask them to help them for free. How do you get them to help you if you have already joined IIT/IISc. Simple, fall at their feet.

Dear Professor GM,My husband and I are seriously thinking of moving to Bangalore. We currently live in the UK but have spent the bulk of our adult life in the US. He is a scientist (academic) and I am a social scientist (working in a quasi-academic setting) While we are aware of his job opportunities in Bangalore, I do not know of any for social scientists. I have seen that IISC has a new undergrad program. Do you know if they are likely to hire social scientists to teach undergraduates in the next few years? Or if not are there other non UGC institutes that one can apply to? Having spent 6 years getting a Ph.D. I don't want to take NET/SET or deal with political (and some parochial) issues associated with working for any regional University/Colleges. For both of us Bangalore will be a brand new place having lived in Western India until we finished our Bachelors; therefore my concern with being an 'outsider' in a regional University/college.

Any advice that you may be able to provide will be received gratefully.

Are you seriously suggesting that consultancy is coming in the way of helping applicants on this blog? In fact I doubt if there are too many faculty reading this blog, part from those we know. I do remember a former faculty commenting this blog - that was somewhat strange. And if hiring in the US picks up, I doubt if too many applicants would continue to read this blog.

Hiring is slowly picking up in US Universities. Check out Florida and Texas Universities. We have ongoing search for more than 10 open faculty position (Electrical, Mechanical and Biomedical) in my college. Of course, there are 200 applicants for each position.

Here's another question: are there any success stories of this blog? Anyone who asked questions here, participated in discussions, applied and is now faculty at an IIX? I know there are some new faculty who use this blog to get some information. But is there anyone who has participated here as a prospective faculty and is now a faculty?

There are many of us who have read this section of this blog extensively and the associated webpage and applied to IIXs.

Three of us came back to India. Two went to IITs and I came to IISc. I did call Prof. Giridhar to thank him after I joined here. Two other new faculty who joined IISc had also used the information in this blog.

A point was raised about if people who have read Giridhar's blog before joining IISc have benefited from it, and what their experience with the entire process has been like. I will list my two cents here:

1. The answer to if I have benefited from Giridhar's blog and the web site he put together for new faculty members, in collaboration with a few others, is a resounding YES. I have also come to know Giridhar personally after joining IISc. He is an extremely nice and helpful human being and it is a delight interacting with him. I have also seen from time to time, responses from Prof. Sriram at IITM and the director of IIT Guwahati here. Their responses are extremely helpful, and I think they are also extremely nice human beings, to share their opinion/experience with people like us, who are starting out in academia.

2. Salary: The short answer is, it is adequate for people with 3+ years of experience, when they are hired as APs. I find the entire business of AP on contact depressing, thankfully, IISc only hires people with 3+ years of experience.

3. Benefits: I don't think a government job is what it used to be. There is no pension any more, and the other benefits (such as medical, kids education are ok, not great). IISc accommodation is quite pathetic for new faculty, and I don't see a desire to do anything about it. It is a SIGNIFICANT hit in lifestyle quality, even if you lived in US/Europe in a 2 BR apartment as a postdoc.

The combined salary+benefits package in the private sector is much better, and if you are only looking for these, academia, in India, is a very bad idea.

4. Administration: In IISc, it is average, neither stellar, not depressing. Things move at their own pace. Sometimes, calling people can push things through. NEVER, antagonize the admin people by yelling at them etc. They get paid much less than you, and a little bit of courtesy goes a long way.

5. Politics: In IISC, I have seen none so far. But, I may be blessed with a better department. I have heard that it exists in some departments.

6. Funding: Government funding agencies are slow and sometimes, incompetent. Private companies in India, still don't have enough wherewithal to do serious funding. Consulting gigs are few and far between, and IISc is the worst place in India to consult, because for every Rs. 100 you bring in, IISc keeps Rs. 40! Then, you pay taxes on the remaining 60%, @30% rate. You get to keep only Rs. 42!

7. Location: Bangalore is probably the worst choice of location, even if there is a lot of prestige associated with IISc. If you live in a city for 30+ years, and like it, you probably want to buy your own home. In Bangalore, real estate has become extremely expensive due to corruption, land grabbing etc. But some areas at the outskirts, are still affordable. Unfortunately, all areas close to IISc, are the most expensive in Bangalore (Rs. 7000 psf+). People who joined IISc 15-20 years ago, benefited from cheap real estate and its subsequent escalation, but those days are gone. If you want to be a part of an "ownership society" and feel that you got something tangible in return for working hard, go to a new IIT. These are places, where you can still get decent and affordable housing.

8. Finally my own take on this: I like IISc, but, only for the time being. I do not plan to stay in Bangalore in the long term, because, I don't see myself becoming a part of an "ownership society" here -- professors have been priced out of Bangalore! I have no plans of working hard for the next twenty years, to make the local land-barons rich. At the end of my 1st promotion, I will probably apply to a new IIT or even a foreign university, if those are in India by then. I might even consider moving out of India. IISc is a great academic institution with extremely helpful colleagues and a great work culture, but, given the salary+benefits and affordability structure in Bangalore, it is simply not worth it staying here in the long term.

I am another new faculty at iisc (around an year now) who had followed, and am still following, this blog very promptly.

So far things have been going great for me. I am a theoretician/computational guy, and the start up grant is pretty much sufficient for several years; in the mean time I have also applied for regular grants and I have positive reviews on getting them. I have excellent colleagues both within and outside the dept. Our dept has decent staff who responded to my requests very well since day one (except for one guy who is damn damn slow). I also have a joint phd student with a distinguished colleague, and will get more very soon. You will also very easily get project assistants and JRFs, and their quality is decent.

A single most negative thing I find about IISc is the housing prospects. Salary is decent enough to lead a good life, but quarters - especially kitchen and bathrooms -- are aweful even for many people who never travelled to US. Asst. professors are eligibel for D type quarters, but they rarely provide them to new faculty citing lack of availability. We always end up getting C type during the first year, and we can only hope that a decent D type becomes available in 2nd year. That is a hope, but most likely you will get a bad apartment because they are in majority. As others have pointed out, buying a house/apartment in Bangalore on a single salary for the family is next to impossible.

For many experimentalists, I am told that the start up grant of around 25 lacs will only help them buy a few basic equipments but most likely they cant start the first experiment with that alone. But if you persist, are patient for first few years, and are sufficiently motivated, you will be well set for a great future (my view)!

1. Completely agree with you on housing. 72 E type apartments have being built and this will completely ease out the problem in 3 years. Faculty joining in 2014 will not face such problems.

2. Funding is available through several agencies. If you write four proposals (each of Rs. 50 lakhs, $100,000), you will get all the four at the end of the first year. For the first year, you can talk to a senior faculty who can help you out with consumables and sitting space for 1 student. The key, as you say, is to stay sufficiently motivated.

IITs have decided to increase fees 4-fold, but the amount will recovered over a few years after graduation. I think this is an excellent move and will be the first step towards ending the some of the absurdities caused by large-scale govt financing of education. The natural reaction would now be for other institutions to also adopt a more rational fee structure and a similar plan for financing it.

That increases in faculty and staff salaries were sought without commensurate increase in fees was always uncomfortable proposition for me. This proposal makes me a bit more comfortable because it is at least trying to be scientific in its calculations (we still don't if the amounts recovered will be exactly commensurate with further increases in costs). But regardless of that, I think this way of financing higher education is far more scalable, sustainable and fair than providing cheap credit through loans or through waivers.

The proposed 2 lacs/year is a bit of shocker but I suppose this was bound to happen sooner or later. I remember when I was studying at IITB a couple of decades ago I used to pay around 165 rupees per semester. This may not sound like much but after including the mess bill & other costs, I was responsible for spending more than a quarter of my father's income.

I actually quite like the idea that those who take up jobs in industry will have to start paying back immediately, while those pursuing further studies will get their fees waived.

Like many of my generation, I was very fortunate that my undergraduate education was debt free. This enabled me to pursue graduate studies and eventually fulfil my dream of achieving tenure at a top-ranked University. I dread to think where I would be in life if I was under pressure to earn money after graduating to pay off my debts. I hope kids from the lower middle class in India can still follow their dreams in the new system.

8 lakhs for a btech degree. i think the wise people can actually advice the students do join colleges which charge a lesser fee, than join these over-hyped institutions(IITs).

instead of increasing the fees, the iits could have basically increased the number of students per undergraduate class(than the current strength of 25-35 per class) which in itself would have drastically reduced expenditure.

so now to feed the under performing profs, the authorities have decided to steal money from the students!!, and in addition to this a poor student from the forward caste will not be allowed free waiver(only poor students from SC/ST/OBC??)ROFL

how about making the profs liable to actually get some money to the institution, or pressurize them to produce some groundbreaking research with regular interviews/checks once every 5 years to check their output/contribution?? but as we all know, once an iit prof gets a seat he/she can sleep through without any troubles till the age of 60 and retire peacefully.

i think the lesser respect indians have for the authority figures who run this country the more sane he/she would be

anon@WOOOOWW states "8 lakhs for a btech degree". It would appear that many are not up to date with the reality of fees. Private (deemed) universities are already charging thereabouts. For example, SRM university (tuition fee details available at their website) is charging 6 lakhs for most programs and for the AE program, tuition is pegged at 10 lakhs. IITs are currently charging about 2 lakhs. I am reminded of the IIM scenario from a few years ago, before they raised fees.

I absolutely agree with Prof Sriram. Faculty salaries have doubled by UGC after the 6th PC. Staff salaries have doubled. There is general inflation which I guess would increase the cost of consumables. And we want colleges to raise their standards - in infrastructure, equipment etc. How can fees not scale accordingly? I know education is not profit-making, but it should not, at any cost, be loss-making either.

I think fees across various education sectors need to increase and, possibly be decontrolled like petrol prices today. The remedy to high fees has to come from clever ways of recovering them.

i will give you a more detailed breakup. and maybe the content here is unobjectionable to prof giri and this comment maybe deleted, but anyway here goes

it is not reasonable to quote some random college and say this is the range of fees that should be charged. the average fees in most "good" schools(by schools i'm referring to say 7th-10th std) is around Rs1500 per month. now we know that there are certain "special" schools for the super rich which may even charge Rs 1 lakh per month. can this be used as an argument to charge Rs 1 lakh per month even for ordinary schools???

this is a very clear breakup of the fees structure and this has to be accepted even by the unaided colleges of karnataka. the fees breakup is Rs 30,000/32,500 for government seats and Rs1.25/1.00 lakhs per annum for the management seats per annum. and of course the fees for the reserved categories in the government quota isn't mentioned. now the average strength of an engineering class is 70 students in karnataka. but colleges usually boost the strength from 70 to 80 by including 10 extra seats. you can call this as the super management seats where the cost for these seats are sold at almost 8+/10+ lakhs per annum.

in the 70 students 35 come from government quota and 35 come from management, and 10 'super management'. so averaging the fees amongst these 3 categories one finds that the average fees per student per annum comes out to be around Rs 1.5 lakhs per annum. and all of these statistics are for "UNAIDED" colleges or colleges which receive no financial assistance from the government.

now taking the case of IITs. the primary purpose of IITs should be producing research output and making significant contributions to the scientific output of the country. goal of the IITs is not to train UGs specifically, although this is a very important duty of the IITs. so to adjust the financial expenses of IITs with the fees of a UG student is meaningless and baseless.

profs are employed by the government of India to do research. however they do still have to do teaching job and this usually consists of 2 courses per sem(atmost i guess 3 courses per sem, although i think this is very rare). now to do 2 courses per sem, it may take around 15 man hours per week per prof to do the preparation, teaching, paper correction, etc. but the prof is supposed to work 40 man hours per week(ideally speaking!!).

in addition to this a prof gets PhD/MSc and ME students to assist them in carrying out their research!!!! so even though a prof can spend only 25 hours/week on research(ideally speaking!!) he can amplify the man hours as he has research students working for him!!

so how can an argument like the increased prof salaries from the pay commission be used as counterargument to raise UG fees. if profs are paid more nowadays compared to before, it is because the government expects them to provide a higher scientific output, since india needs to increase its scientific output manyfold.

also facilities are talked about. many of the UG students will not be given access to all the labs. for ex: even PhD students in an institute like IISc (supposed to be No1 in India) are never easily given access to all the labs. sometimes if we go to a friend's lab just to see the equipments/ the way they conduct experiments, etc, many a time the prof in charge of the lab will chase us away, and there are even boards on the doors of many labs in IISc saying ENTRY STRICTLY PROHIBITED. lol. if PhD students themselves find it hard many a time to use facilities, how can UG students be charged fees on the basis of facilities.

is it morally justifiable if the cost of purchase of a TEM is billed and distributed amongst the fees of UG students in an institute like IISc/IITs??? such a thing is ethically and morally wrong.

then the prof above gives the example of IIM. see, government of India shoudn't really be funding an institute like IIM which is made for training post graduate business students. every country has a responsibility to fund research/science. it is the fruit of research and science because of which we enjoy many of the things we take for granted and use today. only a technologically powerful nation can truly be a powerful nation.

now given the points above, is it really morally/ethically justifiable to charge UG students 8 lakhs for a btech degree from an IIT(when management quoata seats in states like karnataka itself charge 5 lakhs for a btech degree!!!!).

arguments like prof salaries cannot be used to hike fees of UG students. a prof is paid a salary to primarily do research(in addition for which he gets research students to work for him) and thus make a contribution there. hence the salary expenses of a prof cannot be quenched by the fees of a UG student!!!!!!

2 lakhs is high enough and justifiable enough for a btech degree(surprisingly enough the poor students from forward caste will not even be awarded a fee reduction!!!!). if the government wants to cut expenses they can increase the intake of Btech students. currently most branches will have around 30 BTech students per branch/per class. this can easily be increased to 70 students per branch per class(remember most private colleges have 70 students as the strength of each class in UG and they are able to manage the resources perfectly fine).

if IITs do increase the fees to 8 lakhs total for a BTech degree i will look forward to it as i will see the IITs dying a slow and natural death as i hope to see research in india getting decentralized from the IITs/IISc and being carried out on a much higher scale than it is today

About Me

I am a professor in Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.
I work in the chemical engineering department and I am an associate faculty in Solid State and Structural Chemistry Unit (SSCU),
My interest is primarily research, which I try to perform without any diversions.
I believe in working with passion in whatever we do, however "small" the work may seem to others.
I named this blog "Life in IISc" because I spend all my time in IISc. If I am in Bangalore, I am in IISc, nowhere else!

The views expressed here are my personal opinions and certainly not that of IISc.