by Meghan

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2014 at 1:12 PM EST

Glenn opened this morning’s radio program with a candid monologue about why he is pro-life. In light of New York Governor Andrew Cuomo’s recent comments about “right-to-life” “extreme conservatives” not being welcome in his state and prominent Republicans and Democrats stating abortion will be a major theme this election cycle, Glenn decided it was time to broach the sensitive subject and explain why he believes abortion is murder.

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Well, get ready. Both political parties have said that they plan to make abortion one of the main issues this election year. Now, why are they doing that? Well, let me give you a real quick snapshot on Cuomo. The reason why Cuomo came out and said: There’s no place for people who are pro-life and everything else is because of Bill de Blasio. Bill has taken the party over in New York, and the Democrats have fully gone leftist in New York. Governor Cuomo is deciding now that he’s got to play a role in that, so he’s got to go as hard left as he possibly can.

This show, while all of us here feel passionately about abortion, we are intensely pro-life, we have never really focused on it. In fact, it was one of those topics that we said we will never really talk about. We don’t want to get into that because it’s so divisive, et cetera, et cetera. And when you have a discussion about it, you just go back and forth in circles and you usually get shouted down with some bull crap about back alley clinics and a war on women. But since it’s about to become a major election issue, and since New York Governor Cuomo has just made being pro-life a big reason for not being welcome in his state, I am going to talk about it.

The biggest problem with this debate is that we as conservatives have lost it. We lost it the day we allowed abortion supporters to get away with the biggest language coup in the history of the world. And because of that coup, the other side is not for killing babies. They are not for mass genocide, which has taken the lives of 55 million children since 1973… They are pro-choice. If we were simply trying to decide whether we have, you know, Rice Krispies over Cap’n Crunch for breakfast, then I would understand calling it pro-choice.

Now, how did this happen in a conversation that is so unbelievably important? They still argue that all they really want is for [abortions] to be safe and rare. But that’s all. Rare and safe. Let’s ask the tens of thousands of women in the horrific abortion mills in Philadelphia and Houston how safe their choice was in a story that the press didn’t want to cover. Let’s ask the untold women whose lives have been torn apart by that choice that you never see in the media because of an agenda. Mentally and physically the relationships that have been destroyed with massive regret for their entire life… Not to mention that with 1.2 to 2 million of those choices every year, adding up to 55 million since 1973. Doesn’t really seem to be that rare at all. Yeah, instead of the death of a baby, instead of the deaths of tens of millions of babies, including a disproportionate number of minorities… it is indeed just a woman’s right to choose.

Forget about the choice that she had about her spouse or boyfriend or whoever had nine months earlier. See, that’s where choice comes into play. That’s where choice comes into play… Forget about the choice she makes at conception. None of that personal responsibility nonsense can even be considered. There can’t be any consequences for anyone’s actions today. No man must pay for his sins. You have to be allowed to choose what goes on with your body. Women need to choose what goes on in their body and with their body.

[…]

But there again, the debate gets side tracked. We can’t even call what’s in the womb life. Can’t do that. It’s not life at all… We have come so far in the past 40 years since Roe vs. Wade. Now it’s some sort of inhuman abuse of women. It’s an extreme violation to even ask a woman to look at what is growing inside of her. Before you make the ultimate, irreversible decision to end your baby’s life, just look at the ultrasound, see what is inside of you. Look at how amazing this is. This is what we do if you’re seeking an abortion in Texas. God bless the Republic of Texas. So why do abortion providers and supporters so vehemently oppose a pre-abortion ultrasound? Well, here’s the reason. Because 90% of the women who have one realize what is in their womb is not tissue. It’s not a knife. It’s not a fork, a spoon, a shoe. It’s a baby. It is her precious living human baby.

But the old adage is true. Control the language, control the argument, control society. Nothing proves that point more vividly than the abortion debate. The other side never even talks about a baby. No human life is even involved at all. In fact, the father and his wishes never, ever even enter into the equation. It’s about a woman and her right to choose, never about the man. What does a man feel? If we object, we’re of course waging a war on women. We’re the oppressors.

We’re the Nazis, which is really ironic, given the fact that again, 55 million human beings were killed in this country and we’re the ones who are trying to desperately stop this genocide because we’re the Nazis… It is a genocide, and I know that’s strong language, but I’m sick and tired of pussyfooting around on the subject. It is time for strong language… It’s murder… I’m immovable. Abortion is murder. Period… The left tries to tell us just as they do with global warming that the debate is over. It’s all settled. Roe vs. Wade, 40 years ago. It’s a Constitutional right. Really? Show me that Constitutional right. Show it to me… It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist in either of our founding documents. It doesn’t exist in our Constitution. It doesn’t exist in the Declaration of Independence. In fact, the preamble of the Constitution specifically protects the unborn. Let me read it for you:

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, To ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America.

Who are our posterity? Our unborn children – those who should be born and will be born. And the Declaration of Independence protects their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[…]

But there are a couple of tough questions regarding abortion. And actually, the first one for me isn’t tough at all: If the mother’s life is in danger. I’m sorry, but if I have to choose between my wife and the mother of my children, and the baby, I’m choosing my wife. Does this make me inconsistent? Perhaps. Does it make me a flawed person? Perhaps it does. Maybe we’ll try again for the baby, and Lord, forgive me, because I am only human. But I need her. My other children need her. I think most people are on board with that. Some people aren’t. And that’s fine. I’m flawed. I pray that I can have a better understanding.

But here’s the really, really hard question. What about the real choice of the woman? What if her right to choose to create a baby was stolen from her [because of] rape? Now you have taken away her right to choose… If you’re asking her to carry to term nine months, a baby from a monster – not the baby’s fault, obviously – but from the woman’s perspective, that reminder, that act of violence, that horrible violation, the trauma of that? I can’t even begin to comprehend. And again, I know that makes me a flawed human. Maybe. I’ve tried. I guess some people would ask her to carry the baby full term because it is either killing a baby or it isn’t. But if she can’t deal with the baby because of the circumstances of conception once the baby is born, give her up for adoption. I understand, I have an adopted son. And he has changed my life. But if it is my wife or daughter, I can’t demand that of her. Horrible flaw in me, I’m sure. But it is who I am today.

But I want to make it very clear: The only reason why they’re going to talk about abortion is because they win. They will separate us and try to make us hate each other. The Republicans will do it to the Democrats and the Democrats will do it to the Republicans. Don’t fall for that. But don’t you dare shy away. We hold these truths to be self-evident for ourselves and our posterity. We must stand up, square our shoulders, and be better than we think we can be, as guardians of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Anonymous

When one looks back to the human atrocities suffered within Hitlers WWII Nazi concentration camps, the slaughtered bodies hatefully heaped upon one another like so much trash, its even more difficult not to compare that hellish-image with the 56,605,430 Americans unborn infants, murdered since 1967 and that, here in the land of the free. .

landofaahs

I know this for a fact that the Nazi’s produced experiments to leave newborns to go without human touch or affection but merely fed and changed. They all died. What kind of evil bastards can do that let alone kill them in the womb?

Anonymous

Godless bastards, that’s who, and as we speak, America is headlong in the process of removing God from our society. Coming to grips with that, doesn’t lend to the promise of hope and change.

Are disparage and destruction our new course, God help us!

David

Tell me why don’t people murder zygotes just like people murder fetuses? They were both made by God. They are both not fully formed yet but they both have the potential to become something beautiful once they are formed..

Anonymous

The human fetus has the ultimate potential to be born into the very family of God as his sons – becoming very God ourselves. That is what has never been preached in this world of Babylonian religious confusion. Christ was murdered for speaking those words. That information is exactly why humans should not kill other humans. God has big plans for the human-race.

Anonymous

GOD knows us while we are being formed in the womb. Ps.139 13-16. It is murder because someone GOD knew died…

landofaahs

The blood of Abel crying for justice. Rachel, weeping for her children but they would not be comforted because they are no more.

Anonymous

Did you mean Jeremiah 1:5?

Anonymous

Yes,thanks.

landofaahs

America’s judgment is coming. God does not tarry as men think. God is giving us both time for repentance or sufficient time to fill our cup of judgment. The time is short before we hear the words “Babylon the Great is fallen” the nations will mourn for she no longer buys her wares. A third of the waters will be poisoned, thus a measure of wheat for a days wages. This comes throughout history even if it is not at the end. God judgments are always just and predictable. It is a repeated chapter of history which men never read or remember.

I disagree with you a lot Glenn, but on this issue, we will not be moved. upon this rock of truth we can safely place our lives and fortunes.

Jeffrey

I’m assuming that Glenn believes that every life is created equal. How then can he choose one life over another? How can he designate one to die (i.e. the mother over the baby)? Abortion is a moral maze. To me, it’s all about deciding when life begins. There are an abundance of opinions. Some say before conception (the sperm/egg are also alive, after all), some say conception, some say when the brain and organs start to develop, some say when the heart starts beating, some say when the fetus can feel pain, some say not until birth, and the list goes on. Many argue that there is a distinction between being alive and being human as well. What makes us human after all, as opposed to just being alive? Others contend that disallowing abortions leads to greater level of poverty (which spreads due to the poverty cycle) and lower standard of living because babies are born to parents (or just one parent in all likelihood) who are unable to provide anywhere near sufficient care. Every year that a child spends in poverty will result in $11,800 dollars in lost future productivity. So many children are disadvantaged in life from the start and have children that will be disadvantaged in turn. I have struggled with keeping a completely anti-abortion stance. How can you set a clear moral path for deciding between a mother and her child if one has to die? What about rape and incest? I can’t imagine the pain a rape victim feels (and the horror of such a situation cannot be expressed in this post). And incest or anybody who accidentally became pregnant and is completely unprepared/unwilling to care for a child? Should they be forced to raise a baby or send it away because of one mistake? How can I make exceptions when my previous anti-abortion stance declares any abortion after conception to be murder? After thinking through all the moral considerations, I am inclined to say that abortion should be allowed for 12 weeks. 12 weeks is where the brain and organs start to develop and it would give rape victims enough time to receive an abortion while still at a VERY early stage. My only point is that abortion is an extremely COMPLEX issue, and there are valid moral consideration raised by both sides. No one can prove where life beings, lets all try to be respectful of opposing beliefs and engage in respectful and intelligent discussion. I hope everyone understands my position and I remain open-minded on this issue.

“One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him.”

Anonymous

The only reason men are born, is to some day be – reborn – into spirit bodies. This human life we are so found of, is comparable to that of an unborn human infant. Although, unborn, fully equipped with the potential to become human. In the end, to abort any unborn life, is essentially, murdering a future son of God, something tells me, he won’t let that unwise decision go unnoticed. –

Nice video. As a Christian myself, however, I know that many people have differing opinions on when life begins and even what constitutes a human being. I also realize that refusing abortions can have negative consequences (i.e. terrible quality of life which spreads to future generations or leads to an early death in many cases). It’s important to consider that even if abortion was made illegal, a black market would still open up in which the most horribly egregious abortions would take place (and at a much later stage) by doctors who are not qualified. Just because a law is in place doesn’t mean it will be followed unfortunately. I don’t know if I believe that a pregnancy made possible by rape was ever supposed to happen. In any case, I hope we can reduce the amount of weeks abortion is allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

So you’re saying God cannot create a human being in the womb?

Jeffrey

I don’t know what you’re getting at, maybe a few more details please? I simply said that people have very different opinions on where life begins. What is it that makes us alive? It’s VERY complex from a scientific perspective if you study the topic. Depending on where I personally believe life begins, I draw the line on where I think an abortion should be disallowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

You mentioned rape. Now if God were in control of creating life to this day wouldn’t the baby that was conceived during rape would be something God planned?

Jeffrey

No, I do not believe that God plans rape. I do not believe that God has a hand in any of the terrible things that happen in this world, though he makes it clear that life will be far from perfect. God supports babies being born into a loving household with two adults who consented to having a child. I believe that if both parents had not in some way consented to sex, the baby was not supposed to happen. The victim should not have to be tortured for the rest of her life because of a terrible crime against her that was wholly out of her control. The pain would probably be enough to put most victims on suicide watch, and I doubt you would recognize driving a person to take their own life to be a good thing. You really need to consider what your reaction would be if this was your sister or something. The pain she would experience. God has no hand in such evil deeds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

But you’re ignoring a lot of things to come up with that conclusion. First you are ignoring the fact that God craft’s every single one of us in our mother’s womb. Tell me if what you said is true then why would God even waste his time in creating life in a rape victim. Second thing you are missing is that God does not give us more than we can handle and works good out of all trails. Who are we to play God with beings who had no choice how they were conceived? Truth is we have no right and I would like you to point where in God’s word where he says it is ok to kill an unborn child. Last thing I would like to point out I personally know someone where this has happen to them but the chosed to keep the child and it happens all the time and the never felt the need to kill themselves and knows their child is a gift from God. To say God cannot turn an evil deed into good in the end is to deny God’s power. Yes God did not tell evil men to act like pigs but yet in the end he brings good things out of evil and if you do not believe me than maybe you should look into the word of God where you can find many examples of God doing so. I have also heard stories of rape victims after aborting a child going thru so much and not being able to live with themselves because they took a life.

Jeffrey

Sam, I’m happy that the person who you know eventually came to have peace with her situation. Sadly, however, that is far from the reality in all cases. It’s an interesting argument, but I don’t believe that just because God initially created life in the beginning, that all pregnancies are a result of his doing. God created man and gave us the ability to reproduce. The rapist is entirely responsible for getting a victim pregnant in my opinion. There are many other instances (that I’m sure you can imagine) where girls becomes pregnant under circumstances that are far from anything I would associate with God. Anyway, we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. I respect the argument you made though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

Than adoption why does an innocent child of a crime he or she had nothing to do with it has to pay for the father’s sin?

Heather

God decides when life happens. PERIOD.

Jeffrey

God created humans with the ability to reproduce. Men can choose to get a woman pregnant, even though God knows we are sinners. Did God decide that that a date rape should happen, or that a creepy rapist forcibly get a girl pregnant, or that a teenager get pregnant and the father leave her to fend for herself in poverty with no resources to raise a child, or that babies should be born premature or with disabilities, or that a person on drugs or alcohol have sex, or incest, were all those actions done by God? Doesn’t sound like we worship the same God, Heather. How could God be responsible for these atrocities and the horrific future state of the children born in such scenarios?

Anonymous

As you claim to be a Christian, I then, would assume you will agree with me, that all humankind, are responsible for their own decisions made during our human lifetime. Although, I do not see in-depth understanding throughout the halls of science, or for that matter, where is the authoritative voice of organized religion on the subject, testifying to the order of events, that lead to the ultimate eternal life that all humanity has freely been offered.

The bible should be the number-one guide we use, so then, what does God say about the subject of life.

We humans were created a little lower than the angels – having a far superior inheritance than they. Scripture simply states that for now, while in the human form, we are only slightly, a little higher, than the animal kingdom. But later, our human potential is higher than the righteous angels, meaning, as Jesus himself taught us, that men have the unimaginable potential to become Gods, who by the way, are higher than the angels…you see, that is what human life is all about, but, before God will except any of us as his very begotten sons, we must first become perfect ourselves. In order for us to do that, he has given we humans, an allotted amount of time, to accomplish that difficult feat before our ultimate death. The human lifespan is a period for development in the process to be born into Gods family. The unborn baby is very much, similarly, now in the developmental stage for becoming a member of the human family. The unborn human is simply now in the first stage of becoming re-born into Gods family. It really is that simple. The act of abortion (in any case) is destroying that chain of development in our human-Godly-life potential, which lasts forever. Our clergy have not understood this process of life, shedding light on their ignorance of what they profess as to be, the true gospel of Christ.

Jeffrey

Zerogon, I am a Christian who lives by the New Testament of the Bible. I believe that science and religion ARE NOT separate entities, just as Saint Francis of Assisi made no distinction. I also contend that the focus of the church should be peace, love, and charity. Politics and its complexities do not foster any of these virtues. Politics fosters hatred and division. I believe that culture war issues (like abortion) are tearing the church apart. We have to change our focus and realize that the political issues the church involves itself in are quite complex and there are moral arguments to be made on either side (as I’ve breifly outlined). The church has not done well in making judgments on scientific issues (i.e. the world is not flat). Edmund Burke, the founder of conservatism, recognized that no political issue is simple. They are all quite complex if you truly understand the other side. Thus, when the church makes these issues a top priority, those who have differing political positions leave the church in droves (which I have unfortunately seen firsthand). The Bible says nothing about abortion. What I’m saying is that the involvement of the church establishment in politics has been quite detrimental, and even leads Christians to act in very hateful ways toward those with differing political positions. Unfortunately, many Christians do not act as Christ would. It’s like Ghandi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Basically, what I’m trying to say is, it’s hard to determine what the most moral path is on issues like this. Again, just because abortions are made illegal, does not mean abortions will stop occurring. In fact, even more terrible abortions would take place in the black market. In any case, we should try to talk to others with differing viewpoints as Jesus would. Not with a message of anger that reflects poorly on Christians everywhere.

Anonymous

God instructs those who he considers “Christian” to live by not just bread alone, but “by every word of God” – Matthew 4:4 – now those are Christs own words and they are speaking to us directly out of the pages of the new Testament – every word of God means – the whole Word of God in print – the holy bible, both old and new testaments.

I will agree that science is part of the make-up of the Eternal God, anyone who would suggest otherwise, simply does not understand God.

The focus of Gods chosen – his church – should be the correct teaching of the gospel or “good news” of Jesus Christ, peacefully and done in the spirit of charity and love. The truth of God is free to anyone who desires it.

As far as Gods church becoming involved in the political affairs of men, that concept is not biblical, let the blind follow the blind, but for those who have eyes to see, we must look to Christ for direction. He instructed us, to keep our eyes firmly on world news Luke 21:36 “to watch therefore and pray always, that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will surly come to pass” He was speaking of the very days that are now upon us – a day of tribulation, so bad, that there is no other such . time that equals it. We’re talking nuclear war.

The bible doesn’t mention abortion by name, but it certainly instructs mankind not to murder, it also instructs, as I stated above, the breathtaking human potential to be born into Gods very family, becoming very God beings ourselves. If more of our people understood that little known fact, then many of our problems now troubling us in this sin-sick-world, such as abortion, would drop dramatically overnight. That’s what teaching the correct message hidden in the gospel does, it gives people a better perspective to work with, in answering the question of why we humans are here in the first place.

I agree with Gandhi, in the book of Revelation God emphatically states “the whole world is deceived” – including organized religion, see the last half of verse 9, in the 12th chapter. The religions of this world are wrong, they simply do not know, or understand the meaning of life well enough to teach it to others, what life is all is a mystery to even our clergy, therefore men are left in the dark and the saving grace of the living God escapes them.

It is more than obvious to me, that men do not care for following law – not mans law, and especially, not – Gods law. The whole history of men has recorded that fact. America has quickly become a land of Lawlessness! God will hold our people accountable for our sins, one of those sins is murder – no matter who it is.

Jeffrey

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. — Matthew 7:1-2

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. — Luke 6:41-42

There are too many Christians out there who do not adhere to these lessons. We angrily denounce those who are pro-choice as murderers, despite the many moral and scientific complexities. And the Church as an establishment takes political stances on many issues featuring sound moral arguments either way, failing to consider the complexities of the issues they take a stand on. Just as Jesus avoided politics as a platform for his views, I would like for the Church LEADERSHIP (though not the individual people of the Church) to also avoid such an approach. I want a Church focused on the poor, not on politics. The Christian treatment of gays, for example, has been far from anything that would resemble Jesus. We are all sinners, yet many Christians feel comfortable saying things like “God hates gays” and suggesting that anyone who is gay is bound for Hell. Can you imagine a gay person trying to go to church? He would be most unwelcome there. “Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club for Saints,” after all. It’s like Pope Francis has said, we’ve become too obsessed with these divisive culture wars topics, and the hateful approach of some “Christians” has caused many with different viewpoints to leave the church. It’s not hard to imagine why people have been coming BACK to the Church in droves after Pope Francis changed the focus. We are far too JUDGEMENTAL, and this is not at all in the spirit of Christ. How did Jesus approach the taxpayer, the Lepor, and the adulterer – who were all guilty of sin and considered to be despised by God? With kindness and compassion. We should try to approach our society as Jesus approached his. Many Christians do not approach people who have a difference in much the same way. Also, I tend to go mostly by the teachings of Jesus and his disciples. I may very well be wrong in so doing. This quote will give you an idea as to why.

“In practice, Christians do not follow the dictates of the Old Testament. If they did, polygamy would be legal, and things like tattoos, wearing mixed fabrics, eating pork, and seeding lawns with a variety of grasses would be forbidden. If Christians followed the dictates of the Old Testament, then today if the parents of a new bride could not, upon her husband’s request, prove that she was a virgin, that bride would have to be stoned to death. Christians would also have to stone to death any Christian guilty of adultery. And the Christian day of worship would be Saturday, not Sunday.”

The language of the Old Testament is quite different from the language of Jesus in many instances. The language of Jesus is peace and love. I don’t dismiss the entire Old Testament of course, but you have to realize that the Bible was written and assembled by a variety of different men. It is not outside the realm of possibility that some of the included teachings do not truly represent the word of God. Rather, they could just represent the word of a certain man claiming to be speaking for God. I also have a huge problem with your declaration that the end of days are upon us because of nukes. Christians have been claiming that the end is near since the Roman Empire. It is important not to let war propaganda blind you into thinking that world issues are black and white. America has committed plenty of atrocities in the world and no country has ever attacked another country who is in possession of nuclear arms. Some “Christians” even propose that we use nukes on other countries, when countless innocents would be murdered. We should realize that we are all God’s children, no matter what religion you belong to. Do your homework and look past the dramatization. In short, politics is again a hateful and divisive arena full of complexities that go unnoticited by the highly partisan masses. I would just like to see the Church and its members act as Christ would a little more often. If our first priority continues to be politics, the membership of the Church will continue to decline. I want a Church focused on the poor. A Church focused on peace, love, and charity. A Church where ALL feel welcome and comfortable, regardless of their political affiliation. A Church that is not judgemental. In essence, a Church of CHRIST.

Also, it’s important to note that American is fairly alone in mixing religion and politics. For example, England has an established religion, yet religion is not used as a basis for any political decisions. On the other hand, the U.S. has a separation of Church and State, yet the opposite is true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

And their are to many Christians that ignore right and wrong by misusing Matthew 7:1-2 and Luke 6:41-42 which I do not know why you had to split the same passage into to and take them from two different parts of the Bible.

Jeffrey

The point is that we are all sinners. A Church with members who are busy judging the perceived failings of others is not acting as Jesus would. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus treated the people considered to be the worst of his society with kindness and compassion. He forgives those who are truly sorry for their sins and are ready to try to lead a better life. If you read the Bible, Jesus was no fan of the self-righteous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

And he also called the pharisees all types of names and called them out time and time again.
Matthew 23

Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:

2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.

4 They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels[a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers.

8 But none of you should be called a teacher. You have only one teacher, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. 9 Don’t call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. 10 None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader. 11 Whoever is the greatest should be the servant of the others. 12 If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored.

13-14 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in.[b]

15 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You travel over land and sea to win one follower. And when you have done so, you make that person twice as fit for hell as you are.

16 You are in for trouble! You are supposed to lead others, but you are blind. You teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the temple. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gold in the temple. 17 You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

18 You also teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the altar. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gift on the altar. 19 Are you blind? Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Anyone who swears by the altar also swears by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple also swears by God, who lives there. 22 To swear by heaven is the same as swearing by God’s throne and by the one who sits on that throne.

23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.

25 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.

27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You’re like tombs that have been whitewashed.[c] On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 That’s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good.

29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?

34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35 That’s why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah’s son Zechariah,[d] the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

Jesus Loves Jerusalem

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! Your people have killed the prophets and have stoned the messengers who were sent to you. I have often wanted to gather your people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now your temple will be deserted. 39 You won’t see me again until you say,

“Blessed is the one who comes
in the name of the Lord.”

Look not judging others about their past is a noble thing and I wish more of us did that but at the same time Jesus never said to egg people on who are in sin. What if your child brother sister or parents where doing wrong are you just going to sit their and let them do wrong to themselves or others or are you going to stand up and say look I love you but you should not be doing this? I mean a great example where this lead to evil is what happen in Nazi Germany. No I am not calling you a Nazi or anywhere close to one and I know it is a very extreme example but my hero Dietrich Bonhoeffer had to fight with people in order for the church make a stand and quite a few people were using Luke 6:41-42 to justify their in action. Should we judge other no should we stand by while their is a genocide happening in our own country? Even the early church was against such barbaric behavior of killing children they would even wait by the river to save drowning babies from a form of Roman abortion so please wake up your backing a sin for the sake of not judging and that is equally as wrong as judging because you are enabling such behavior by defending it.

Jeffrey

Sam, I don’t think you quite understand my position. I said that Jesus was not self-righteous. He did not treat the sinful as others did, he treated them with kindness and compassion. And he of course showed them the correct way to live their lives. We are all sinners, yet some Christians get on a high horse and act as though they are above others. Of course, if your brother or sister is doing something wrong then you should try to guide them to the right path. The point I make on abortion is that not everyone agrees that life begins at conception. You have to understand that some people have a different opinion than you. Not everyone agrees as to what even constitutes life. Therefore, some people believe that abortion should be allowed up to a certain point. If babies are born to a teenage parent with no job or a rape victim or anything else, they are growing up highly disadvantaged. That is another moral consequence that has to be at least considered. Learn about the poverty cycle and what the root causes of poverty are. It has an impact for generations. And many children die young due to malnutrition because they could never acquire appropriate care, leading short and miserable lives. Also there is the black market to consider. My only point is that there are moral consequences either way, though to us taking what we believe to be a life should trump the other side. I tend to believe that life begins at a very early stage and thus abortion should be prohibited. But when I’m debating with a liberal, I don’t call them a baby killer. I am respectful of their views and they TRULY consider mine in return. I don’t want to get into world affairs and history. I only want for the Church to avoid making politics its number one priority because then Christians become mean and divisive, pushing people who have a different opinion away from Jesus (which I have again seen firsthand). I know people who would go to Church but refuse to because the Church has different political stances than them. This upsets me. I don’t want a service about abortion, I want one about peace, love, and charity – a message that is appealing to everyone. The people of the Church, however, can lobby as they see fit of course in the political arena regardless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

SO basicly your one of the people who love to sit on the fence on everything so you don’t offend people. I am sorry to point this out to you but Jesus never acted this way. He never sat on a fence just because some people found his talk offensive. This is why I refuse to call myself a Christian anymore. Because we have people who think you have to do this this and this to get into heaven. Than we got people like you who are all over the place wanting to bring everyone into the church but at the same time taking the rules Jesus and his followers put down and just tossing them out like it is trash. Both Ideas are wrong and both lead away from Jesus himself because both ideas do not fit with what Jesus teaches. Just because the world says it is ok to kill inside a womb it does not mean we should sit back and do nothing. I cannot do that and God will not forgive me if I just let people die for convenience. Jesus was not about that and neither am I. What you preach is cheap grace worthless grace.

“Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?…

Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Jeffrey

I just want the Church as an establishment to prioritize differently. If you as a person want to use the Bible as a means to justify a political position, by all means do so. I just want Church leadership to PUBLICLY focus on different things. The people can fight for what they believe is correct from a policy standpoint all they want. You have to understand morally the complexities that accompany any political issue. Do you really think it’s as simple as this side is in favor of murder and that side is opposed to murder? We also (and this is important) have to consider the context of Biblical writing. For example, the Church as an establishment says that being gay is wrong, yet if I read an argument putting the Bible into context, a strong argument is made that that may not necessarily be exactly the case. Take this article for example …

In any case Sam, you should NOT decide whether to call yourself a Christian based on what I or anybody else says. Who cares about the opinions of those who think you have to do this or that to get to heavan? Who cares about people like me? It’s all about you and what you know to be correct. It’s about you and God. Heck, I think there are a lot of religious fanatics, but I think I know what being a Christian is all about so it doesn’t bother me. The opinions of other people don’t push me away and they shouldn’t push you away either. Honestly, you may be right about everything we’ve argued about. I have examined political issues to such an extent that I am very open-minded in just about any discussion. I’ll admit I’m still trying to figure out what’s right on certain issues. Usually I just play Devil’s Advocate to challenge the beliefs of others, even though I might completely agree with them. Anyway, I do appreciate that you take a stand for what you believe in a respectful manner, unlike some people on here. Again, it’s not about what people like me say, it’s about what you know to be correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

Well you doing a good job at it. I feel God says a sin is a sin for a reason really look at what God calls out as a sin and piece it together. You are smart enough to do so.

Anonymous

Being judged is part of the Christian life. God is forever watching the way we humans live our lives, this judgement is a daily reality for those who understand and walk with God. The sentencing for ones life – either for that of good – or bad, comes in a future time, when Christ resurrects humanity from the grave.

We humans make many bold claims about ourselves. I could easily boast that I’m a rocket scientist, but just saying that, it doesn’t in fact, make me one. If I were to show up on the steps of NASA, and they gave me a job to do, it would soon be made painfully obvious, that I had no idea of what I was talking about. The same can be said about millions of people who make the claim of being a Christian, God clearly acknowledges, “we are known by our fruits” – for the one who truly understands biblical scripture, that person, can spot a fraud a mile away.- its not judging that person in the same sense God will judge, it’s more of a judgement call, based on biblical understanding and fact.

You have clearly demonstrated, that you sir, have not received a good understanding into the mind of God. You accuse me of being hypocritical based on your wrong assumption, of who and what God is, and why we humans were placed here on the earth. You have shown by your many words, that you are thin-skinned and become easily irritated, when others do not agree with you – why then, if I may ask, are you here?

When you assert that “there are too many Christians out there, who do not adhere to these lessons” – what lessons(?) – lessons taught by misinformed men, who have wrongly created their own personal gospel and have tossed aside the life-saving words of God in favor of their own. Again, simply saying that one is a Christian, does not make it so. God instructs us “to prove him at his word” – listening to the reasoning of a deceived human, will always land us in trouble.

The topic at hand, is that of, a modern genocide currently being carried out against defenseless infants – we humans love to put a clever sounding title on our barbaric practices, one is commonly known as abortion, but that doesn’t change the fact, that God simply calls it murder, and murder is taking the life, or the killing another human-being. “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always hold the face of my Father who is in heaven. What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray. If he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices more than the others who never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish” Mt.18:10-14

At this very moment, there are millions of young people, mothers and fathers in America, who, “despise” their unborn babies – God takes high-issue with that warped sense of ignorant understanding, which derives from an evil mind, absent of the good word of understanding in-which, only the truth of God provides. Our youth have become woefully ignorant of the true purpose of man. “Let the children come unto me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” Mt. 19:14 With statements made like that one, coming from Jesus Christ himself, are we to think that children, including unborn-infants, mean nothing?

Remember the song our children used to frequently sing at bible school….”Jesus loves the little children…all the children of the world” – What has happened to us? How is it that we have placed God to the back of our minds and have thrust to the forefront, that which produces evil and destruction…and in this case, the destruction of millions of unborn American citizens. Who are we anymore?

After reading through your post, it is clear, that you babel on like a clanging noise, having much sound – but no meaning whatsoever.

The nameless quote you provide above, must be one of your own, because it does not, not even in the slightest way, reflect what the nation of Israel was instructed to do in old-testament times. Read for instance the book of Deuteronomy, check out for yourself what God calls “clean and unclean foods” and how to distinguish between the two. Even though, yes there are differences from the old and new testaments, it does not necessarily mean that the old testament is irrelevant, on the contrary, most of the books found in the old testament have dire prophetic meaning for our very day in which we live. These books were written to the nation of Israel, who by the way, in most cases, had already been removed from their lands for disobedience toward God, something that America is clueless of, God today, still punishes nations for our collective national sins, and I cannot stress this enough, abortion is an abomination to our people and we will most-definitely, be judged according to our lax attitude toward the murder of millions of our own fellow citizens and that, by our own hand! America is a part of modern-day Israel, though the world know it not, therefore the prophecy of national destruction is directly aimed at our people, but because of ignorant men pawning themselves off as the servants of God, the masses have been misled.

We have forgotten the God who saved our people time and time again, from disaster, civil-war and wars against tyrannical dictators. He has made our people the most prominent people on the planet, but yet we have forgotten him. We have also forgotten what our founding fathers once understood, that the Sabbath of the Lord, is the last day of the week – from sunset to sunset. THIS, after God clearly instructs us to “Remember the Sabbath Day, by keeping it holy, six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the seventh day, is a Sabbath to the Lord your God…for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy” Exodus 20:8-11 Today organized religion teach a wrong concept that the Sabbath has somehow been removed by seven full days, from where God originally placed it and by the way, he blessed it and made it holy…no other 24hr period of time – during a seven day week, has been so blessed. We have forgotten the Lord our God! And the churches of this evil world teach lies calling them good and call good evil. Churches found in organized religion can be blamed for their part of this abortion practice, because they do not know, or understand God given truth – therefore, they do not instill right knowledge into our young people, making it easier for them to except wrong choices such as abortion. There is much blame to be placed squarely on the shoulders of false religious ideology. Our clergy do not teach truth, because they do not understand God. They are liars and follow the god of this world Satan the devil.

By you not understanding even simple biblical revelation, is the main reason you cannot understand the signs of the times. A whopping, one whole third of the bible is prophetic writing, ninety percent of those writings are just now, today, beginning to take place…they will not stop until they have exhausted themselves at Christs return to save mankind from self-destruction. You have willfully followed errant men, and have allowed yourself to become completely deceived in all your so-called-biblical-understanding. You don’t have the first clue of what you are talking about.

You show more faith in the American nuclear-arsenal, than you do in God. As we speak, Germany is in possession of several American made nuclear bombs, and from what has taken place recently, within the Obama administration concerning how the NSA collects its data (even on the German chancellor ) that practice has not gone over well with the German people. The bible boldly states that America will be destroyed by a German-led European Super-power, and that will happen in the soon coming years, in fact, all the players are already on the stage, history is only waiting for the curtain to open for the playing out of the fulfillment of bible-prophecy.

The Church of Rome, is currently calling her harlot daughters, back into her fold, the church of England has forgotten its past with Rome and have blindly yielded themselves to the great whore who is spoken of in the last book of the bible.

You have swallowed whole, the lie that the Catholic church has proclaimed…it is the devils church, which carries out his evil bidding…the final and last era of the Holy-Roman-Empire is now upon an unsuspecting world.

Some advice…do not receive the mark of the beast, for it is a number that you can count…those who have it, will suffer the seven last plagues of God upon an evil world.

.
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Jeffrey

You twisted just about everything concerning my argument to suit your perspective. The rest is pure insanity. You apply Bible passages of no clear relevance to abortion. You claim to be a Christian, yet you resort to insults. You fail to realize that the Church is losing member because of politics and people like you who are obsessed with the Apocalypse. The reason I live by the New Testament is because the God of the Old Testament is very different from the God of the New Testament. It seems that you believe a nuclear war is going to occur and that there is nothing we can do to stop it. It almost feels as if you welcome it. No country is going to launch a nuclear weapon at us, and even if a country did choose to, it certainly wouldn’t be Germany (nuke us because of the NSA, REALLY???) or any European country (as if it was some big secret that the NSA spies on foreign leaders). You hold America up on high, yet ignore the fact that we created nuclear weapons and are the only country to have ever used them (killing 100,000 innocent Japanese citizens, our POWs, etc.). Generations suffered from radiation. We’ve run all around the world setting up bases, supporting terrorists and dictators, and bombing countries, yet we are the nation worthy of God. You need to learn history. The concept of many different countries in the world wasn’t even created until well after Biblical times. You would do well to remember that the GOVERNMENT CREATED America idealism back when our country was still developing to persuade Americans that they were a special nation in God’s eyes, in order that the public look past the wrongdoings of our leadership on the world stage. The higher the level of patriotism, the more supportive citizens are of going to war. That whole line of thinking was CREATED by the government to increase support for wars they wanted to start. You can keep looking for the signs of the times, I’ll keep looking for ways to foster peace in the world. BTW, the last country to be as patriotic as America was Nazi Germany, just FYI. It is arrogant and naive to suggest that America has some special place in the Bible.

Anonymous

The Word of God is the God of the Old Testament, he is the same personage, or God of the New Testament.They are one and the same.

The bible references applied, show the deep respect that God holds for our children, but you wouldn’t understand that concept, with the god you follow.

One would have to be a fool to welcome such devastating nuclear war. One third of all our people will die in such a hellish nightmare. I in no way, take that as a joke, but I do welcome the return of Jesus Christ to stop mankind in his tracks from human annihilation. Jesus – the King of kings, will soon replace the evil governments of this world and take control of the throne of the earth.

Germany has a record of bloody conflict with the US, or did you miss that history lesson. The NSA plays only a small part of the overall big-picture which soon leads to hostilities between our two nations.

God gave the US its world dominance – including its nuclear arsenal – we were, that is past tense – were – the lion of the world keeping the peace of the planet for quite sometime, but the silly minded, almost childish policies of our current administration has foolishly bartered it away in return, for the promise of nothing. Our strength is routinely spent in vain, because of idiots who proclaim to be wise. America is hated around the world and make no mistake, Germany is not our friend and never has been, they simply lost the war and went underground and now, once again, have become a power to be reckoned with, they will assert themselves in the roll of world policeman as the US continues to leave important strategic hot-spots around the globe. Our political leadership is utterly clueless, and our clergy is even worse. Our education system is in complete shambles because of both former mentioned.

It was Pax-Britannia who secured the peace of the world, until Pax-Americanism peacefully took over and assumed that roll, the world has known relative peace and prosperity because of those two democracies. No nation on earth is perfect, including the US, but within a very short span of time from now, the world will get its first taste of Pax-Europa – at first, everything will seem much better than before, from what the Brits and the Americans offered, but in an instant, that naive mindset, will change and the world will once again be plunged into world conflict. It all centers around the weak foreign policies that the US is currently engaged in.

Calling God arrogant won’t solve a thing, discovering the error of your thinking and then acting accordingly, will. It is God who created nations – if you’re not satisfied with his job, take it up with him.

Again, and this cannot be stressed enough, your ignorance of biblical knowledge will be your downfall – go ahead and follow along like the good little sheep you are, but you have it all wrong.

Jeffrey

God gave the U.S. nuclear weapons? Well I guess he gave them to Germany too, and Pakistan. I guess since China is set to become the greatest economic power in the world soon that God gave them that as well, because their government is so wonderful. Germany was our enemy during World War II, just as Japan was. In case you haven’t noticed, it’s 2014 and that’s no longer the case. We have good relations with these nations. A European country would never attack the United States, they would essentially be opting to destroy themselves. Again, no country with nuclear weapons has ever attacked another country with nuclear weapons. No democracy has ever waged war on another democracy. We have 3,500 nukes and Israel has 300. No country is going to attack either of our nations with a nuke. In the history of mankind, the United States is just going to be one tiny piece of history. You really think that the U.S. has been a keeper of peace? We have been anything but a keeper of peace in the world, and the people around the world HATE us for our involvement in their countries. Well, actually most people outside of the U.S. don’t really care about our nation at all, any more than you care about what’s happening in Argentina. You fall for dramatization by our politicians and the media. Take, for example, Iran. Have you ever wondered why the hardliners in their country despise the United States. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically elected government using our C.I.A., installing an oppressive and corrupt monarch. After living under his BRUTAL control for many years in which he used our C.I.A. as his secret police, the 1979 Iran Hostage Crisis was essentially blow back stemming from our actions. Later, during the Iran-Iraq War, we supplied Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons which he then used on Iranians. We did not condemn the actions of Saddam Hussein; in fact we provided him with whatever funding, intelligence, or military resource he required. In addition, during this war we shot down an Iranian airliner containing about 300 innocent civilians. We did not apologize. We used to be allies with Iran. It is frequently argued by many that the U.S. only engages in good deeds in the world when our own self-interest is served in some way. Our actions in many countries have mirrored Iran. Nobody knows their history. They just know we have people who don’t like us and that more wars need to be started. I’m absolutely convinced that the greatest threat to world peace is the uninformed hardliners, such as yourself, who try to make issues a matter of good and evil while buying into the misinformation and dramatization that is meant to lead us to war. Eisenhower warned us to beware of the military industrial complex. You would do well to remember it.

Anonymous

God gave the US, the ability to be the strongest nation on the planet, if not for us developing this powerful atomic weapon, the Germans may have gotten theirs first, so yes, God gave us the power we needed to secure world peace. The Japanese, were given ample warning – two times – before these destructive weapons were unleashed, each time, they scoffed – each time, they were wrong, the war abruptly ended saving uncounted American, and for that matter, Japanese lives. It was supposed to be the war to end all wars, (at least that’s what the war-scholars projected), but because America has since refused to use that power, the world has had no peace from that day till this.

Weak-minded politics and liberal minded education, not to mention ignorant clergymen, who have no clue as to, what they are talking about, have brought about this glaring shift in global dominance.

You make a number of guesses – but bible prophecy clearly demonstrates who God gives power to, and yes, the Chinese are one of those nations. The book of Daniel gives precise information about the later-days, the time in which we are fast approaching. Daniel talks about the king of the south (Iran), pushing at the king of the north(German led Europe) and the response by them, which starts world-war-three. This conflict is quickly joined by the king of the east (Russia led Asia) mustering an army of 200,000,000 men – that’s two-hundred-million. Yes it is God who gives nations their power. But it is, also he who corrects nations. Christ will soon end the madness, but not before the world has learned its lesson because of it.

Your willingness to believe stupidity, speaks volumes about you. In recent days, Japan has taken on more of a stance for pre-world-war tradition, and the Germans are fast becoming a threat to Europe, many nations on that continent, have noticed the sudden return of arrogant behavior right out of Germany’s past. This nation has always exhibited an image of the bully.

Don’t be so certain what other nations would do when it comes to replacing American power – with their own. Setting themselves up as the dominant player the world over.

Because of your lack of information, due to you avoiding looking into the old testament, there is much you do not realize. One major reason the US becomes vulnerable to foreign attack in the coming days (it could be years, but probably no more than two or three) we will once again break out into civil war. The bible describes the savage conflict, where a full one-third of our people perish, because of this future political-chaos (civil war) we become susceptible to foreign attack, which is exactly what happens. Two thirds of our people will cease to exist after civil war and then, suffer a a double-cross by our good friends the Germans. Our people (the one third of us who are left) will be taken away captive as slaves, where 90% of those people will die brutally, at the hands of their captors wherever they may be. Human trafficking is big business, but this time it will be Americans sold as slave labor. And I thought you said you understood scripture, you are a liar and a fraud.

Even though it was God who gave the United States her unprecedented powers , it is he, who will also take their power away. He is not happy with our people, not with those in government, not with those in education and most of all, not with those who claim they represent him and do not. Yes America has its many faults, that’s what happens in a Godless society. Our people do not reflect his attributes, or character – we will be destroyed for what we have become and abortion plays a major roll in Gods decision to destroy us.

Jeffrey

This is pure madness. We saved lives by using nuclear weapons??? Yeah, we saved the lives of some Americans soldiers while killing about 100,000 innocent Japanese civilians who were just like you and me and weren’t even fighting in the war, along with anybody else who happened to be in the country at that time (tourists, our own POWs, etc.). The radiation led to absolute horrors for their people for years to come. I guess that all men are created equal unless you’re an American. I was even tempted to stop reading after you seemed to be advocating for an increased usage of our nuclear weapons on what would be civilian populations in other countries in the world. Let me make this PERFECTLY clear to you. The usage of a nuclear weapon is NEVER justified. EVER. And you question me as a religious individual? And you wonder why we (the U.S.) have a bad reputation in some countries in the world. You are no Christian. You don’t have the first clue about world affairs or history (other than the highly distorted versions you willingly accept). I’ve had people tell me that religion is the greatest threat to world peace, and with people like YOU it’s hard to completely disagree. No matter what country you are from, we are all people, we are all God’s children, and the murder of innocents by our country is never acceptable. EVER. We are supposed to demonstrate peace and love toward all others as Christians. We are supposed to be the example of what is good. Don’t bother responding. You are blind one. It’s good to know that our politicians can count on all of the sheep like you out there who buy into whatever propaganda they put out. Don’t worry, it’s clear Iraq wasn’t enough. They’ll be needing your support for all of our unnecessary future wars.

Anonymous

Now I know I’m only wasting my time talking with you. You certainly have a strange sense of reality. Without American might, the second world war would have meant the German Nazi-party, would have been victorious. Without our atomic weapons being used against the Japanese, countless live’s on both sides would have been lost – much more than what the two nuclear arms produced. Peace through strength is not only a policy of strong nations, it is also how God operates

I’m not abdicating the use of nuclear weapons, but if that’s what it takes to keep the peace of the world, then American leadership should get their butts in gear and stop the acceleration of rogue nations from obtaining their own, for instance, Iran, a nation who has made a sworn oath to their God, Allah to literally wipe the tiny nation of Israel off the map.

No not us – not the brilliant minds that now wield power in DC – they are in fact completely ignorant of world history, and because of that blatant misconception, they are bound to repeat it. But this time, bible prophecy reveals unwelcome news – we lose, and its because of weak progressives in control, who think much like Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam war, she turned on the US in favor of communism, siding with the enemy. Much like you describe about yourself. The plain and simple truth unbenounced to you liberal types, is that, this world is an evil place, it always has been, the whole history of the planet is nothing but war, and the overwhelming power of the US and Britain before us, staved off dictatorial governments having barbaric treatment of their own populaces

This world follows the evil dictates of the devil, the overwhelming mass-majority of all humans now alive, are not children of God, and why, because they utterly refuse to learn who he is. They prefer to follow a lie, calling evil good and that which is good, they call evil. You are a very dangerous ideologist who has been sucked into the political correctness hype that rules the day. That backward philosophy will come back to us, in the form of our own destruction.

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Jeffrey

You have no sense of reality. Therefore, any discussion with you is CERTAINLY a waste of time. I’ll say again, people like you are a great danger to peace. It is not true that our use of nuclear weapons saved more overall lives than we would have lost. That is not historically accurate at all, it is a distortion, an excuse for our actions. Japan was not too far from defeat, though they did bitterly refuse to surrender. We just wanted an excuse to use our new toy. In any case, we fight by using our military. We never fight by killing innocent people until the other side surrenders. Seriously, what are you a member of Al Qaeda? You call yourself a Christian and then try to justify our country blowing up entire cities of INNOCENT people? How is such a moral approach any better than the Germans? Do you even know why other countries get nuclear weapons? They usually get them because they feel threatened in some way and want deterrence. We have pushed other countries to pursue these weapons through our constant invasions and bombing, getting involved in their affairs to install puppet governments, and putting our own military near every country all around the world. You think we have knocked bad governments out of power? The opposite is true. We have installed the most terrible types of leaders in other countries. It doesn’t matter what they do as long as they’re a puppet for us. The examples are endless. Heck, we even supported Democracies being thrown out in favor of Communist governments in Latin America, in addition to Iran. You do realize that we we laid the groundwork for Iran becoming a theocratic state ruled by a Supreme Leader. Iran was on the path to democracy prior to our involvement in their country.I could give you a lecture on America’s wrongdoing in the world, but that would take all night. The reality is that hardliners in other countries think that we’re evil and people like you think that they’re evil. Also, Iran never threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the map, but don’t expect the media to inform you of that. Seriously, get informed and stop buying the war propaganda. Iran hasn’t attacked another country in 300 years.

Man you must sleep on your head, you seem to view the whole world upside-down. It wasn’t the Americans who started the second world war, thank God that it ended in our favor. Nuclear arms ended the nightmare. The Japanese people stubbornly refused to peacefully end hostilities themselves, in fact, they swore to fight on to the last man, and after witnessing the viciousness of the “holy warrior” the US made the right decision to end the conflict sooner than later. Does it really make all that much of a difference what weapon ended it – death is death and we won. Argue all you want about the unfairness of the Americans, if memory serves, it was the unprovoked attack on America in the first place, that turned our full attention towards the Japanese anyway

Never did I say that American foreign policy was an example of stellar perfection. I’m well aware of American intervention that should have never taken place. I have clearly stated and have not wavered from that point of view – that even God is very unhappy with the conduct of, well, almost every facit of who we are as a people.

From politics, to education, to religion he is not happy. We have squandered our wealth away and have not led the world by good example. Our people will pay a heavy price for allowing things to become so far out of hand, after all, are we not a nation who’s government is “of and by the people”. Abortion, if I recall , was where this story line started, but the subject entails much more depth about who we are as a people and how God perceives us, than from what is being discussed within the bustling halls of higher learning. That demographic is also the largest subscriber to the idea of experiencing sexual intercourse without repercussion. This self-centered attitude has been installed by a hapless authority which has placed its stamp of approval for lewd behavior.

I’ll let the words of prophecy do the talking, maybe you might believe your eyes rather than the words I write. Look for Iran to – either directly, or indirectly (using one of its many proxies) to attack the city of Jerusalem, this religious aggression, causes religious Europe to respond. So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then know that the time is near. – Europe will respond using blitzkrieg warfare, it will also become nuclear very quickly. The wise understand because they know God, the vast majority of mankind who think like you, will become trapped in the snare of death. Good luck to you – you’ll need it.

Jeffrey

I find it laughable that you started by claiming to be for the sanctity of life and saving babies, yet then propose a foreign policy of nuking countless innocent people. But you are clearly devoid of reason. You do know that there have been other wars in the history of mankind other than WWII right? WWII is probably one of the most justifiable wars in our limited history. Others not nearly so much. Wars should be fought between MILITARIES ONLY. We don’t kill innocent civilians until the other side surrenders. That is a tactic of terrorsts. Do you have any idea of the negative impact of being the only country in the world to have used a nuclear weapon? Do you know why Japan attacked us to begin with? We were imposing sanctions on their country. Sanctions are essentially an act of war as you are forcibly preventing goods from entering a country. We were not totally uninvolved as you have obviously been led to believe. Japan attacked us for a reason. Iran as a country is no threat militarily (they barely even have a military). Their threat is constantly dramatized in the news. It’s war propaganda. It’s laughable. But don’t worry, my friend. There are plenty of sheep like you who would oppose any dialogue with these countries. There may very well be military action taken against Iran, but right now I would place the blame squarely on hardliners like you in our country (and Iran) for doing everything possible to ensure that that is the case. It’s amazing how soon people forget the lessons of Iraq. Did you enjoy that war? Israel was all for our involvement in that war. Now how about some history? I do think the Cold War would have made a much better end of times scenario, but whatever. People have always believed that they’re living in the end times. Always looking at world events hoping for some apocalyptic sign, rather than pursuing peace.

.The Cuban Missile Crisis is a lesson in history. JFK was told by his military advisers to strike the nuclear weapons sites in Cuba. Instead, JFK decided to TALK to Khrushchev and the weapons were peacefully removed. These were ACTUAL nuclear weapons as well (and there were plenty of them). However, JFK also recognized that there were political pressures in the Soviet Union, just as there were in the United States. The Kremlin couldn’t just remove the weapons and be seen as giving in to the United States. JFK was called WEAK for not attacking, when in fact his actions prevented an certain nuclear war. JFK allowed an old missile defense installation to be shut down in exchange for the removal of the nukes from Cuba, so that Khrushchev was able to sell the deal to his people in the Soviet Union as being a win (while we also sold it as being a win in the U.S.). This is just one example of catastrophe being averted through talking and NOT military action. Diplomacy does not involve just getting whatever you want; it involves compromise that can allow the other side to sell their end of any deal in their country as well. You cannot solve the problems we face in this world with war. Our bombing of countries has just killed innocent people and created more individuals who want to do us harm. Not to mention given us the terrible reputation of being trigger happy. Learn some history please.

Anonymous

I find your sympathy regarding those who despise the US down right astonishing. You fight for pro-choice, stripping all rights from unborn defenseless infants – these innocent creatures have no say, in your tiny self-centered world. But hey, you claim to be a Christian so all is good right. All the while exhibiting little, or no understanding of who, or what God is, or why he operates the way he does, or even, the role he placed America in – a position by the way, we have turned our backs on entirely and refuse to do. You are clueless in your arguments, basing your fruitless efforts on stupidity. Talk about having no real concept of world events, or, how the world has always operated and solved its problems, but yet, you somehow blame all the troubles the world experiences on US foreign policy.

If you truly understood God the way you claim, then you would have available to you, the information needed to understand Americas long running history with that same God Your words alone, prove you to be a liar and the truth of God is no where in you, in fact, it is far from you.

God teaches what the vast difference are of those nations he calls “Gentile” and who he classifies as “Modern day Israel” – if you had that elementary-element in your mind, you would fully understand how foolish you look.

The bible is a book about the nation of Israel, the boxing arena the world has just entered into, God classifies as “the times of the Gentiles” – temporarily speaking – the time of Israel, has suddenly been brought to a halt – it is over. God has removed our power because of lawlessness permeated within our society.

School teacher you’re not. As far as your view of history goes, you have no idea of how God looks at things. Do you actually believe your own words “that wars should be fought between military’s only” if you’re attempting to add a little humor into the conversation, it worked, Your comment would have made me laugh out loud – but then, I suddenly remembered the worlds paramilitaries sponsored by rogue states who do their dirty work by using humans as “bombs”. You’ve heard of terrorism before haven’t you, its where men are trained to conduct covert operations in secret. Then lie about who they’re working for, everyone currently lodged at Gitmo, of course, are innocent you know.

Are you sure that you’re an American? How is it, that you have more sympathy for the nation of Japan because of US sanctions before the second world war. If you recall, Imperial Japan, was well into their quest for world dominance. The brutality towards the Chinese was unspeakable, everything from poison gas, down to basic routine torture was exploited. The US sanctions were meant to slowdown the Japanese advancement. These hell-bent radical extremists had nothing to do with peace talks – in fact – during the last high-level meetings between our two nations the Japs walked out. That same day, unannounced, with no declaration, Japan invaded sovereign US territory. As I stated before – with radical religious nations – there is no negotiation, proof of that came when Japan refused to surrender after the first atomic weapon was unleashed, to suggest that they’re not responsible, in any way, for the second bomb being dropped is naive at best.

And now you want to infuse your expert war opinion to the subject of Iran. It seems – at least in your make-believe-world – that “poor-little-humble-Persia” is always being picked on, and once again, by the American great-Satan. How foolish do you think I am, George Bush should have continued on with the fight while still in Iraq – Iran should now be US territory – sort-of like a 51st State. But nooo’ our political elect sought peace by packing up our troops and bringing them home. Now, today, Iraq is being run-over by the radical element of Iranian religious jihad – thus, the Iraqi government has recently asked for US troops to return. Of course that will not happen due to the new ideas of negotiated appeasement coming out of Washington. Again if you understood scripture, you would know why God places the Iranians as the – “king of the south”. The bible indicates that the Iranians may even be successful at producing their own atomic weapon, preemptively striking Israel. But as you suggest, we should open up our hearts to the Persian world and embrace their loving culture. These nuts have far more blood on their hands than the US ever did, but yet, you support them. Your ideology is simply amazing.

Your refusal to understand end-time-prophecy will be your undoing. Go ahead and give me one of those big plastic liberal smirks, laugh all day if you want, but God is no liar, in fact, he says, he cannot speak a lie. So what he inspired to be written down so long ago, pertaining to these very days we now live , will shock a disbelieving world, and prophecy will run its course exactly as described. Something tells me you won’t be laughing then.

When you wake up from your very long nap. God will explain to you, how your vision of the world was more than twisted. You’ve got it all wrong…once again, you call evil – good and good – evil. Learn some history yourself. Better yet, learn your scripture, then history falls into its proper place.

I never said I had sympathy for those who despise the U.S. I explained to you WHY some countries hate the U.S. (and their reasons are often quite justifiable). Your ignorance is astounding. And for the last time, I am generally pro-life, I just recognize that the abortion debate has many morally challenging questions. Would you call Glenn Beck a murderer too? I struggle with the same questions he does (rape/incest/life of the mother). You think that God has removed our power because of lawlessness in our current society? How laughable. Our nation was founded on the genocide of the American Indians. We kept African Americans as SLAVES for much of our history, but I guess God agreed with the Supreme Court ruling that an African American is only 3/5s of a person. I guess God agreed with widespread hateful racism. Our country has never been an example of moral perfection. Other countries that have risen to power/are rising to power certainly have not/do not fit the bill of being favorable to God either.

And yes, America is supposed to be an example. We should not stoop down to the level of terrorists or any nation. Forcing a surrender by killing innocent people should never be an option. And you question that I’m an American because I constructively criticize my government? I explained to you the reason why Japan attacked us during WWII. Our Constitution clearly calls for a non-interventionist approach to foreign affairs whenever possible. Not abiding my that has made us a target for many people. You apparantly have never read the Constitution (what a shock). The sanctions we enforced militarily made us a target of Japan (though WWII was an example of a justified war unlike many other wars). Also, you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of Asian history. There are reasons that many Asian countries hate each other. It’s scary that you treat Japanese people as all being the same. There were many different people inside their country, some more extreme than others (just like anywhere else in the world). Yet if any other country in the world had nuked New York/Los Angeles or other cities until we surrendered (or whatever region you’re from), you would consider that to be a horrendous evil. Maybe you would have a different opinion if you had been in Japan at the time and looked into the eyes of everyone who was going to die/suffer horrendous maladies from radiation due to our use of nuclear bombs. But you act as if only Americans are people. Their citizens had lives and families just like you and I. It’s a stain on our nation’s history. We fight the bad guys with our military, not threaten them with the murder of civilians. Again, you are promoting the tactics of terrorists by our government. Astounding.

According to your logic, if I hold a gun to your head and give you a command which you then refuse to follow, my pulling of the trigger will be your doing/responsibility? You’re placing the blame for a murder on the victim. The murderer committed the act and is responsible, PERIOD. And again, it’s worthwhile differentiating between the citizens of Japan and their government/brainwashed military. Nothing can excuse the mass killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent people. I don’t care if we gave them a warning. The U.S. government just wanted an excuse to use their new toy. What a twisted logic you employ in a blind defense of the indefensible.

To answer your question, you are quite foolih. However, because you are a tool of the government, you naturally do not understand your own foolishness. You have no knowledge of history nor are you capable of an independent perspective. We used to be allies with Iran. And now you say we should have overtaken Iran and made their country a 51st state? WOW. Then you turn around and criticize other countries for taking territory? Such a hypocrite. George Bush labeled Iran a member of the Axis of Evil back in the day. The Iranian hardliners naturally did not take kindly to that label, just as the people of our nation wouldn’t. The fact that you support the war in Iraq is befitting. The only thing the Iraq War has accomplished is the killing of thousands of our troops. And that is the only thing further involvement would accomplish. I don’t think you quite understand the political atmosphere in Iran. Most of their citizens bear no ill-will toward the U.S. and want to see relations improve between our nations. Hence the election of Hassan Rouhani. It is the hardliners in their country that stand in the way, just as you would stand in the way in this country. I have already explained to you why the Iranian hardliners have referred to us as the Great Satan, yet apparantly you just ignore the wrongdoing of our nation no matter what. This is not to excuse Iran’s faults, but to make the issue a matter of good and evil (black and white) is ridiculous. Remember what I said about American Idealism? Sheep like you are proof of its success. Have fun hoping for the apocalypse. I’ll be working toward peace on earth like a true Christian in the meantime.

Anonymous

Then well talk after the coming third world war, maybe you will see things differently then.

Anonymous

Jeffrey,
You are obviously an intelligent man and present reasoned arguments, however it is not man that sets moral standards – God does. He has quite a bit to say about the fuit of the womb:
psm 139:13 “For You have formed my inward parts; You have covered me in my mother’s womb.” – it is God that knits us together in our mother’s womb, what right does any man or woman have to rip assunder what He is in the process of building?
Psm 127:3 “Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb is His reward.” – He creates us for Himself, what right does any man or woman have to deliberately destroy that which He creates for Himself?
These are only 2 sciptures – there are many, many more as anyone who’s read the bible for themselves knows – that make clear God’s view on unborn children.
As for “science”, so-called scientists used to say that evolution was replicated in the developement of the fetus -‘ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny’. With the invention of the ulltrasound, this ‘science’ has been absolutely disproven. The mind of man has always sought to find excuses to avoid the consequences of denying God’s sovereignty and/or His laws & statutes. In the end, it does not matter “when life begins” because from start to finish we are His creations, built by Him (DNA strand by DNA strand in the womb of our mother), for Him and abortion is never “justified” as all life belongs to Him.
The “rape or incest” argument is specious because less than 2 percent of all abortions performed are due to these causes and just because someone is going to do it anyway, doesn’t mean that God is going to change His laws & statutes. Abortion is premeditated murder, it’s not even a crime of passion, it’s a crime of inconvenience.
If the church anyone attends does not teach/preach truth and righteousness as well as peace & charity & love – they should leave it and find one that does!

Anonymous

Remember that scientists themselves also have a dismal record regarding scientific issues. Hence the ever changing views of scientists. In the issue of Galileo vs. the Roman Church it was not only the clergy who erred but the majority of the scientific community.

kanakattack

You’re twisting the truth here Jeremy. You’re saying, ALL abortions = medical emergency where the life of the mother is in jeopardy. That is absolutely false. A very small percentage of abortions fall into this category. So upon that FACT, you can leave that argument at the door.

Women “unprepared” or “unwilling” to raise their child is okay to murder that child?! What kind of a sick argument is that???

A child will be “disadvantaged in life” or doomed to “poverty” so it’s okay to murder that child. Again what kind of a sick argument is that and who exactly has this amazing ability to see the future of a person???

Now when it come to incest and rape I think we can start making some judgement calls on whether it should be allowed or not. Other than that the woman’s decision finished when she decided to engage in intercourse. The consequences of that decision are not up to her or anyone else’s discretion. At that point the endowed right of ‘Life’ as protected in the Constitution of the United States of America is given to that child. Any person with the intention of taking that right away should be punished accordingly.

Jeffrey

Kanakattack, you are twisting the truth quite a bit. I never said that all abortions equal a medical emergency in which the life of the mother is in danger. I said that circumstances like that DO ARISE on occasion and it is hard to determine what to do morally in such a situation.

I also pointed out that some people have differing opinions on when life begins. Therefore, some abortions are OBVIOUSLY not considered to be murder from their perspective. Imagine that you have a young daughter who gets pregnant and is in no position in her life to raise a child (i.e. she is unprepared given her status in life and has no resources, monetary or otherwise, to do so). She made a mistake. If you allow such a child to be born, they will in many cases have very poor care (which can lead to a multitude of things I’m sure you can imagine) and thus a very low quality of life. The parent might be an extremely poor role model or they might be forced to raise the child alone). You have to understand poverty and its implications to truly understand the moral point I’m making, but since you don’t, we’ll just move on.

You clearly believe that life begins at conception and abortion clearly equates to murder anytime thereafter. However, then you state that “when it comes to incest and rape, I think we can start making some judgement calls on whether it should be allowed or not.” In essence, you statement is quite hypocritical. You are stating that you believe something to be alive, but in certain extreme circumstances you might ALLOW it to be murdered. You are saying that MURDER might be acceptable in certain scenarios. At least in my position I believe life to begin at 12 weeks. Therefore, you condone murder in certain situations and I do not. Again, realize how hypocritical what you are saying is. MURDER should never be acceptable, no matter what the circumstance. Just because the rape victim has had a tough time does not mean that an innocent should have to pay the price. At least according to your logic.

Anonymous

Does anyone really think the growing entity in a woman’s womb isn’t alive? Assuming most people are sane enough to at least know it is alive, then what is it if not human life?

I think most pro-aborts understand it is human life although many may be in denial. After all, most of these same people would scream and holler if you dared destroy the unborn life of an “endangered” species. They wouldn’t say…”no big deal, it wasn’t a spotted owl anyway it was just fetal tissue”.

Add to this certainty, our laws protect unborn children as human beings if a crime is committed against a mother and the unborn child is harmed. No big outcry from the average pro-abort about these laws. Again, further prove they know an unborn life is a human life.

Jeffrey

What constitutes life? What makes something alive? How is a plant alive, for instance? You likely contend that life begins at conception, but weren’t the sperm and egg alive prior to conception? It’s a complex issue if you actually study it. No reasonable liberal believes they are endorsing a stance that actually equates to murder (I have talked to many). But yes, I have also commented on how liberals claim to be for the poor and helpless, yet on this issue that notion does not seem to hold true at all. It’s quite hypocritical. Just as many Republicans claim to be for the government staying out of people’s lives, yet on issues they oppose, they are all for the government becoming involved intensively. We have two hypocritical and highly partisan parties.

Anonymous

Not so complex an issue really. Sperm and egg carry a living code and are alive but it is the union of the two that defines the person. In the instance of abortion the issue is justice for human beings [persons]. Sperm and ovum have no claim to personhood individually.

Lucas Forde

Abortion has only one tough question the of mother or the baby if mother life is in danger. Both lives are equal but which do you choose? Their is no right answer and that debate will live on forever. Why is the right to life been lost?

Anonymous

Pro-lifers oppose consequences, not causes. Hating abortions is as effective as hating hate, or cursing the darkness. The primary causes of aborting unwanted children are narcissism, rape, adultery and sex without marriage.

Since most of us have done it or have children doing it, it is safer, more politically correct and less judgmental if we only talk about abortion consequences
and the killing of unwanted children, not the causes. Then we can blame the government for not making abortion illegal.

Outrage about narcissism, rape, adultery and sex without marriage begins with us, with families and in the Church.

We don’t condemn sex without marriage because want to be seen as loving and tolerant. Churches don’t condemn sex without marriage because it might empty the pews.

A.

I am ALMOST in agreement with Glenn. I do think that abortion is murder, and that unborn children are protected under the Constitution, in part by the preamble he mentioned. For those who contend that the fetus is not a human being because it cannot survive outside the womb, I would argue 1) does that make someone on life support “inhuman” because they cannot survive on their own? and 2) having lived through a twentieth century in which atrocities were committed under the argument that the victims were not “human” or “fully human,” I think we should tend to err on the side of those who are being KILLED by the abortion, which is not the mother in most cases.

I think Glenn’s argument about WHY abortion should allowed to save the life of the mother is flawed. My argument would be that just as the Constitution allows for killing in self-defense in most circumstances in which the killing would otherwise be murder, from a LEGAL standpoint the State/Government cannot possibly have the authority to order a woman to DIE for her child. Therefore, from a legal perspective (I know morally it is always questionable when we have to choose between who lives and who dies), I cannot envision a scenario in which the State could force one person (the mother) to die for another (the child).

I also disagree wholeheartedly on the question of rape or incest. Those are indeed horrific crimes, perhaps second only to murder or torture, but the presence of one crime cannot excuse another. The CHILD is innocent. Glenn’s position seems to be that the child should face DEATH for the sins of its father (the rapist). I find that unconscionable and nowhere in the Constitution is the right to life inhibited by mitigating circumstances, no matter how grievous those circumstances are. Again, the Constitution by its protections of the right to self-defense may be used to justify abortion to save the life AND ONLY THE life (not the “mental health”) of the mother. In any other situation I believe it runs counter to the Constitution and the Declaration. I suggest you think carefully, Glenn, of the implications of allowing what you would otherwise deem to be murder based on the CIRCUMSTANCES of the victim or his parentage. That is veering dangerously close to ideologies such as Nazism, in which a person lost his humanity by being a Jew OR OF JEWISH LINEAGE, which is important to remember.

The Blue Tail Gadfly

Excellent points!

You can also add the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men…”

Until America wakes up and stops these government sanctioned murders, we will have the government we deserve, one that does not value human life and looks at us as cattle.

Re: “That is veering dangerously close to ideologies such as Nazism”

Our country has been brainwashed into accepting Pantheism, which is the worldview Nazism is based on.

~BTG

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness — these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.” ~George Washington

Anonymous

I am anti-Liberal !

Anonymous

Glenn makes a good argument about the beginning of life, but most people over 14 already know how and when physical life begins.

Why doesn’t Glenn spend most of his time on this subject arguing about the high risk of fornication and adultery – the primary sins causing 74% of the
terminations of unwanted new life? (Data shows 26% of the remaining abortions are caused spontaneously)

No biblical prophet or teacher preached or taught against abortion, but they certainly raised their voices against fornication and adultery.

Terminating unwanted life is murder but only a symptom – not a cause.

klr56

Exodus 21:22 “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished,…”

Anonymous

Perhaps, and that is a big perhaps, prior to being able to see stunning pictures of babies inutero there may have been some questions about when life begins. I am expecting my first granddaughter and have seen numerous images of her, her features, her little arms and legs, her heart racing with a big kaboom. There is absolutely zero excuse to continue the mass murder of these precious little ones. Our Supreme Court got this one so wrong and brought out the crystal ball to see something in the Constitution that is not there. They got it wrong then, just like they got in wrong during the Dred Scott decision, declaring black people 3/5ths of a person. Those who made abortion Constitutional have blood on their hands, period.

Jeffrey

Assuming that all abortion is made illegal, we know from experience that a black market would open up in which abortions would be performed by inexperienced doctors at very late stages. These operation would be far more grotesque and immoral than is currently permitted by law. Would the lawmakers who disallowed all abortions then also have blood on their hands? A law does not prevent certain actions from occurring. Did prohibition stop people from drinking alcohol? No, it created Al Capone. BTW, I most liberals I know allow abortion, just not at too late a stage. Just interested in your reaction …

Burton

you realize that even with abortion legal, there are inexperienced, unlicensed hacks performing abortions in dark alleys, right? my question is, if baby killers are so concerned about competent care for mothers, why are they opposed to laws requiring admitting privileges at a local hospital? the fact is that they’re not concerned about mother or child. they’re concerned about money.

J Oakman

By your reasoning, there would be no laws. After all, people are still going to violate other’s rights, defame, steal, or murder in really dark alleys and in painful, dangerous ways, often in order not to get caught and prosecuted. Therefore, do you consider that if these acts were perpetrated in regulated ‘safety’ that they would be any less heinous. Or, by their commission despite these laws, in such awful circumstances, does it make you and me somehow responsible for the unlawful acts of another?

Jeffrey

I believe in a Libertarian system much like Glenn Beck. I know that laws have unintended consequences and that some laws are inherently flawed (i.e. African Americans are 3/5 of a person). I also realize that a black market for goods and services opens up when something like this is made illegal. If guns were made illegal, they would still be sold illegally. We know that abortions will still take place, even if the law prohibits them. Marijuana being illegal funds the drug cartels in Mexico, who supply the drug in the U.S. (and believe me tons of people do marijuana even though it’s technically illegal). Alcohol prohibition created Al Capone. My only point is that the most moral choice is not always clear. With abortion, my point is that if an abortion takes place at an early stage by an experienced doctor, that might be better than at a VERY late stage by people who have no idea what they’re doing in a grotesque operation. I’m just weighing things, not necessarily stating my opinion.

Trisha Holmeide

Yes, it is now illegal to murder people, yet some do it. Difference is whether the state (that represents the people) condones/supports/advocates/pays for it or not. Personally, I believe taking the life of an innocent human being is the most despicable action anyone can take, but I fear for my own salvation if I start telling everyone else what they should do under what circumstances. That has to be between Heavenly Father and each of His daughters individually–

Jeffrey

The point is that laws have unintended consequences. If you make abortion illegal, a black market will open up with egregious procedures. If you make alcohol illegal, you get Al Capone. If you make marijuana illegal, you fund the Mexican Drug Cartels. I was simply pointing out that the most moral choice in creating laws is not always clear. And again, that it is murder is YOUR opinion, not the opinion of everyone. All I am trying to do here is provide the other perspective.

Anonymous

That’s a ridiculous argument! If I walk into your house and shoot you, I’ve committed murder. If I have an abortion, I’ve committed murder. One can land me in jail. The other? Somehow just doesn’t count because liberals pretend certain human beings have no rights, not even the fundamental right to life.

You need to really think about this one, okay? You have to remember that during the time period when abortion was first made legal, having a child out of wedlock was still a big societal no-no in most circles. Women were terrified of being “found out.” That has changed. The scaremongering – “If we don’t do this legally, women will be dying in the streets!” – is no longer a valid argument. You cannot prove that suddenly millions of women would be getting back-alley abortions. Would some? Quite possibly. But that cannot be reason alone to allow the sacrifice of millions of innocent human beings.

Meanwhile, liberals (who think so, so highly of themselves) keep refusing to grow the heck up and take responsibility for their actions. Killing your own child because he’s in the way of whatever you want is horrific. No one has ever really produced a solid argument in support of it. There’s a lot of desperate rationalization going on, but then, I imagine the same can be said of serial killers and child molesters. Abortion is murder. We know from basic life science the difference between a living thing and a non-living thing. We also know from that same basic science that the genetic coding of a living thing identifies the species. From the moment of conception, we have a human being. If we are going to murder him? We’d better have a d*mn good reason for doing so. Only in the sick and twisted mind of a liberal is, “Well, gosh. Pregnant for nine whole months? Adoption? Are you kidding me?” a valid reason to kill someone.

Jeffrey

Once again, in your partisan rant, you forget that liberals do not believe the fetus is alive. Nobody know when life begins. You have YOUR opinion and they have theirs. Nobody can even tell me what makes a person alive. I’ve talked with people of differing views on abortion and they make reasonable arguments. They all agree that after a certain early point, it shouldn’t be allowed. People just have disagreements as to what that point should be. For you to just call people with a difference baby killers is madness. It’s why we can’t have a dialogue with anybody in this country. I believe Glenn even touched on that. Go ahead and call people murderers. See how many are converted to your perspective. The Republican Party is becoming a joke because of people like you.

Heather

They should ALL be performed with a coat hanger and no antibiotics. Think you are justified killing an unborn baby? let God decide if you should live through the process!

Jeffrey

Again, the reasonable people who are pro-choice do not believe they are killing anything. There are differing views on when life begins and even what constitutes life. You have YOUR opinion. God is not a fan of the self-righteous either, just fyi.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. — Matthew 7:1-2

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. — Luke 6:41-42

Mark Andrew Olsen

Great to hear you weigh on this subject, Glenn. I always believed you were strong on the subject, and wished you’d speak out more. BTW: all conservatives believe in “choice,” the “right to privacy” and the right to control one’s own body, far more than any liberal. Pro-lifers just don’t believe those things outweigh the right to live. So I’m pro-choice and a champion of the right to privacy. I just don’t think those things sanction murder.

Anonymous

I’m just wondering if the answer might be proper education, both parental and school. How many parents are willing to talk to their youngsters about birth and pregnancy? How many educators talk about what effect unwanted children have on society? Look at Africa, where an average woman has more than 10 babies during her lifetime and look at the poverty. Look what permissiveness does to morals in America. In our modern age of easily accessible birth control, we must stop these unwanted births not by abortion, because that is killing, but by birth control means to prevent pregnancies at all costs.

Anonymous

I’m sorry, but abortion is MURDER….the act of killing a living human being. While I might understand the pain a woman would go through carrying to term a life that was created via violence, IT IS STILL A LIFE! Perhaps we can spend more time and money learning how to help these women through these pregnancies, supporting them and finding homes for the INNOCENT babies. Do you honestly think God will say “Well, because you didn’t CHOOSE to get pregnant, it was okay to KILL a life that I preordained”? I don’t think so. How many great people have there been who were almost aborted??

Canadianlady

Absolutely right. That baby is innocent, period.

Anonymous

What could help those women is to not focus on this baby being solely from the rapist because he/she isn’t. The baby also has the mother’s
DNA and might resemble her or her side of the family. Once people start looking at that fact, that this is their own flesh and blood and not a completely foreign body or entity, it helps shift perspective.

Anonymous

I agree. Since when are genes the determining factor of how good a person will be? Certain physical traits and even personality can be influence by DNA, but all people have free will. Look at the lineage of King David and Jesus Christ. Both have prostitutes and notorious liars in their family tree. Prince Johnathan was the son of King Saul, who became a villain before all was said and done. Aaron was the Lord’s very first chosen High Priest of Israel, and his sons were so evil God consumed them with fire. Morality is about who you choose to be, not who you’re born from.

CrapsDealer

I don’t believe rape is the reason for a large percentage of abortions. I believe most women who get abortions are irresponsible and simply use it as a means of birth control.

Anonymous

Oh absolutely, same here. I once read an old statistic that said that around 1% of all abortions are sought due to rape. 1 %. The number of women whose life is threatened by the pregnancy is even rarer. So yeah, that begs the question, what is everyone else’s excuse? There’s no doubt that they’re facing a hard thing. Either way. raising a child is hard (heck, even for those of us who wanted them!), giving a child up for adoption is hard, and enduring an abortion and living with the mental demons for the rest of one’s life – hard. To me, a lot of the pro-abortion argument basically boils down to: you’re gonna make me do something unpleasant and hard? No way! I’m from Germany and abortion is legal there until the 12th week. Germany has stellar maternity and paternity leave provisions and federal aid for every child born. yet they can’t get German women to choose motherhood over career advancement anymore. No matter how they incentivize. It’s pathetic. Because for far too long women had been told that motherhood is the pits, the least that you can do and achieve with your life. Now there’s the harvest of that in a low birth rate that caused the German minister of Family to say a few years ago, “Only two types of people have kids anymore: welfare cheats and Christians.” (Bam… that caused a furor but only because it contained truth)

Linda Shelton

God will never support killing, no matter what stage the life, from the tiniest baby in the womb or the neighbor next door.

I have carried two babies to term, after my body rejecting several more. While it is not necessarily comfortable, the short term pain, once you see the living creature you produced, the pain is forgotten(until the next time).

I will NEVER support abortion.

TexasBirdGirl

He explained he is struggling with this. I am a strict abortion abolitionist, but I understand how someone might struggle with this.

Jamie Proctor Pataky

YEs Me too.. I respect the fact that Mr Beck admitted his thinking is flawed. It is very difficult to know what you will do in this situation~ As for me and mine ABORTION is NEVEr an option! I explained to all of my children that they clearly have fee will and that they have a choice in raising kids… BUT that adult decisions like engaging in sexual relationships bears an adult consequence! I am the mother of three teens and a 20 year old~ ALL four of them were told that if they make that decision and face the consequence, they must take on the responsibilities that go with it! If more parents hold their children responsible for their actions and start taking responsibilities for their own actions … The whole issue would be much different! We should not tolerate EVIL because there are a few exceptions that could be considered. MEDICALLY the Dr. would arrange termination of a pregnancy if it threatened a mothers life. This is so rare that it could be handled case by case at a state level. The RAPE exception needs to be eliminated. GIRLS DO become pregnant from rape.. more often than we like to admit but most of these women want their babies… We should be looking for ways to support these women in these situations. ABORTION is not what they need. I say this because statistics show us very clearly that those who have chose abortions end up with more negative struggles for years to come, those who keep their babies and seek counseling lead more successful and positive lives.

Anonymous

Glenn, you can’t absolutely declare that abortion is “murder” and at the same time say that you’d be ok with it in cases of the mother’s life (which virtually never happens) or in cases of rape. You are normally so terribly consistent, but in this case, I have never understood you. It’s utterly illogical. Make up your mind, either it’s murder or not. If it is, how can you be ok with participating in “murder” just because the circumstances are very difficult? I hate – so hate – that you always mess up your “pro-life” dialogues with these “exceptions.” You – are pro-choice after all.

ksrgl444

Legally speaking, there are varying degrees of murder/homicide, recognizing actions based on intent, passion and accident. I am not saying Glenn is right or wrong. Just pointing out that you say it is or it is not. The law says, look at the circumstances.

Anonymous

What heck are you talking about? The discussion is not the legal definition of “murder” – the discussion is about the moral definition – the taking of an innocent human life.

Burton

it took me a while to get to the place where I believe there is NO valid reason for an abortion, but I’m surprised someone like Glenn hasn’t gotten there yet. dollars to donuts after airing his feelings this, it won’t be long until he has to go one way or the other.

Anonymous

Yes I know! I’ve heard him spout this for years now and I just don’t get it. He sounds like a ridiculous liberal when he says this, as if words mean nothing. As if you can turn a reality into something else just because it’s difficult. He just confounds me in this.

Anonymous

Cranboh, you said: “in cases of the mother’s life (which virtually never happens)”. I know that pregnancy occasionally does put the mother’s life in danger. A friend of mine, 5 months pregnant, was advised by specialists to terminate her pregnancy because her blood pressure skyrocketed and she would likely die. They ended up not needing to make this decision as she miscarried shortly after. It was her first pregnancy after several years of trying and they didn’t want to abort. Thankfully, she was later able to carry two babies to term.

Anonymous

I believe I said “virtually.” I’m truly sorry for your friends loss, it must have been devastating. But at five months, or about 20 weeks, that child could have already had a chance – if slim – if delivered early. What kind of doctor advises the trauma of an abortion at 20 weeks? I would never again remain in a doctor’s care the recommended something like that.

Anonymous

Examine it from pure ethics. Murder is the taking of an innocent life. Killing another is allowed to save your own life. If the pregnancy puts the mother’s life at risk, the ethical situation changes from murder to self defense.

klr56

For all those “Christians” who say that the Bible says nothing against abortion… Try this one —
Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished,…”
That is pretty clear cut denunciation of abortion in the Bible. There are others but this should at least stop the “Bible Believers” from making more errors.

Jeffrey

This doesn’t really prove anything. The baby was clearly at a very late stage if it departs from her, and no reasonable person really supports abortion at such a late stage. In fact, this is not my opinion, but some have even argued that this passage endorses abortion given that only a fine is necessitated for the action according to the Bible.

Anonymous

Is it abortion if a woman loses her child due to injury in a car crash she caused? Is it abortion if a woman spontaneously passes her fetus she wanted and protected?

Arguments against abortion always become circular because few will focus on the biblical cause – adultery, child abuse, rape and sex without marriage..

Anonymous

The SOB President said today that he still support the Court Decision Roe Vs Waid. Translation, he does not give a dam about the killing of 55 millions babies since that ruling.

Anonymous

Controlling the language of the debate has definitely been the only reason abortion is still legal.
If people had to admit that an unborn baby is a person, and that the question is about whether an unborn baby has a right not to be killed, there would be very few who support abortion.
But as long as the question is about “women’s reproductive rights” (what a bunch of bull), then enough people will continue to be fooled into supporting abortion to keep it legal.

Jeffrey

Calling someone who disagrees with you a baby killer is not a great way to start a dialogue. If people come to understand this, a lot of progress might be made.

Anonymous

Who’s calling anyone anything?

The question is: does a baby in the womb have the right to live?

If answering no to that question makes you feel like a baby killer, that’s not on me; that’s just reality.

Jeffrey

All I’m saying is that people who resort to calling others baby killers will not get anywhere with the people they are trying to convince. It will likely to get heated and both sides will consider the other to be irrational. If you are respectful in dialogue, however, people will be more open to considering your views.

“One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him.”

Anonymous

Hmmm. So, I guess if you ever had to talk to a serial killer, you’d look for some “kinder” way to describe him, to try to “show him the error or his ways?” Or a child rapist? The problem isn’t calling them baby killers. The problem is not calling them baby killers *enough*. The whole reason they’ve gotten away with it for so long is because they’ve been allowed to claim these babies aren’t really human beings with rights of their own.

There is no respectful way to call abortion what it is while still telling the simple truth. Abortion kills a human being. Supporting abortion makes a person an accessory to murder. It’s only legal because the left doesn’t want to face the consequences of their own reckless and irresponsible behaviors. Sugar-coating it does nothing more than let them lie to themselves and pretend they aren’t absolute, depraved monsters.

Would you support the right to rounding up homeless people and killing them to put them out of their misery and get them out of the way? If a law was passed making homeless hunting legal, would you be telling us we need to not call anyone who took up the “sport” a killer, because then these murderers might not listen to us? Killers are killers. We shouldn’t allow certain killers a free pass just because they refuse to face the truth and own up to who they really are.

There are some lines that should not be crossed. Some acts that are so morally reprehensible they should never be condoned and legal. Murder is absolutely one of those things. That the left is okay with killing certain human beings (wholly innocent, defenseless, vulnerable human beings who can’t even fight back) is what ultimately robs them of *any* claims to morality or even basic humanity. And in defense of their victims, we should be calling these murderers what they are. Every single day. It doesn’t matter that the state lets them get away with it. They kill babies. They are baby killers.

Jeffrey

This post is laughably absurd. You compare liberals to serial killers and equate what they are doing to knowingly rounding up homeless men and killing them. You without a doubt are exhibit A as to what’s wrong with conservatives and the Republican Party. I’ve never talked to anyone who is pro-choice and believes they are killing anything. They have THEIR opinion on when life begins and what constitutes life, and you have yours. Also, no liberal I’ve have ever talked to believes in abortion after a certain point, which most agree should be fairly early. Calling other people names is no way to open up a dialogue and convince people that your viewpoint is correct. Mutual respect is. It is a good way, however, to convince people that you’re are nuts and that your opinion has no merit. Go ahead and talk to people with a difference and call them baby killers. Let me know how many you convince that your political perspective is correct. The EXTREME partisanship in this country that has grown by the years is tearing us apart. Both sides are just lunatics now.

Anonymous

1. A fetus is a living thing. It is not a rock, a pencil, or a basketball. A fetus is made of cells that grow and divide. Non-living things are incapable of that.

2. A human fetus carries human DNA from the start.

3. Saying a fetus is not alive is no more scientifically valid than saying the sun is made up of cotton balls and spray paint.

You are being academically dishonest in order to give unfounded merit to your claims. You refuse to state the truth, for whatever reason, and so label me as the extremist and whatever other name you can lob at me to deflect. This whole “opinion” on when life begins bit is utter crap. Science is not about opinions.

And it doesn’t matter AT ALL that “nobody can even tell me what makes a person alive.” You and your liberal friends have no right to place that kind of value judgment on anyone else’s life. You don’t get to choose that! Who the heck do you think you are, anyway? Science tells us that the baby is human from conception. Ethics tells us that killing him is taking gross advantage of our superior position. Morals tell us that taking the life of another human being without cause is wrong. You have no right to say a baby can be killed because you and your liberal buddies have some whacked out philosophical “meaning of life” crisis going on, where apparently your own lives have enough value that you’re still here, but the lives of those babies are forfeit on your saying.

There is no madness in calling the killers of babies baby killers. The madness is in your own head; this frightening need you have to give them a pass for their horrific crimes.

Oh, and as to your oh-so-smug question? Twenty-two years ago in college I took an ethics class. The professor asked us who was pro-life. Only three of us raised our hands. He invited us to speak. I did so, using the same language you are reading here. And then the professor asked again who was pro-life. The ENTIRE class raised their hands. So, a couple hundred, at the very least. Liberals are hiding from the truth, enabled by people like you who won’t stand up and do the right thing. The only help these defenseless babies have is if we constantly shine the harsh light of truth on what really happens when an abortion takes place. Pretending liberals have a valid “difference of opinion” is no more right or just than when we let slave owners get away with the “opinion” that black people were only partially human. I’m sure they had some “reasonable arguments” for their beliefs, too. Well, reasonable if you were willing to let go of whatever shred of humanity you possessed.

Jeffrey

A few years back when I was taking a philosophy class, I was one of only two people in the entire class who was pro-life and argued the pro-life position. I explained my perspective in a rational way, and the class of fifty or so who were clearly pro-choice CONSIDERED my viewpoint as a result. When we worked in groups, everyone explained their rational for picking a stage when life began in a thoughtful and rational way based on the scientific evidence. Everyone who I have ever talked to about abortion who is pro-choice starts by denouncing people who just call them baby killers as crazy. People like you push them away. You have the opposite of your intended affect. When a liberal just tells you that you HATE poor people, does that make you feel more inclined to support welfare? Of course not. I can assure you that science has NO certain conclusion on when life begins. If it did, abortion wouldn’t be legal because we have the right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country. You really need to study the other side my friend. And BTW, I am much closer to conservative than liberal in my beliefs, but the extremism in the Republican Party has been pushing me away for a while now if I’m being totally honest. I have still never voted for a Democrat, however. What we need in this country is for people to truly understand the other perspective. Right now extreme and blind partisanship is tearing this country apart. That’s why I’m trying to provide the other perspective and teach people how to discuss issues with others in a way that will earn respect and consideration. Screaming and name calling never gets anyone anywhere. Intelligent discussion does.

Oh btw, you make statements like “morals tell us that taking the life of another human being without cause is wrong.” You do realize that there are different moral systems, etc., that would say different things, right? Kantian, Utilitarian, etc. Oh never mind … the funny thing is that we basically agree on when live begins, I’m just advocating for a different type of dialogue than the kind that’s been used by you and failed. You keep doing your thing though, and Republicans will keep failing to get elected.

Anonymous

You have got to be kidding me. You can “assure me science has NO certain conclusion on when life begins”? What did you use as a science textbook in middle school? The Red Book of Fairy Tales? Are you seriously trying to say that although a fetus is made up of living, growing, dividing cells it’s still a non-living thing? Like a ball of foil or a picture frame? This makes *sense* to you?

Just because you’ve decided to buy into the lie liberals spread about this, doesn’t make it suddenly true.

When a liberal tells me I HATE poor people, I laugh. I spend several hours a week volunteering in a thrift store/soup kitchen. I’ve done so for decades. Even though I have only $400 a month to feed my own family of four, I still manage to make monthly donations to our food bank. The same delusional fantasy that lets a liberal (and apparently you) say, “Well, yeah… those are living cells and all, which means it’s a living organism and not a non-living thing, but, you know, science doesn’t *really* know when life starts.” is the same delusional fantasy that says, “Conservatives HATE the poor!” Why would I let such sheer rubbish bother me or affect my behavior? I’m a grown-up, not some silly child who gets her feelings hurt when someone hurls false accusations at her.

I am well aware of various moral codes of quite a few different cultures. Interestingly, for the most part, murder is panned in the vast majority of them. But, no, I will not compromise my own and pretend that killing babies is okay just because some people deny the simple science and therefore feel perfectly justified in taking the life of another human being.

I know you’re feeling quite proud of yourself at the moment. You think you’re being all reasonable and talking to some hard-line extremist who doesn’t get it, but let me ask you something. If you were sent into a room of pedophiles and they all talked to you earnestly about how their abuse of children is really just a sign of deep love, would you have this same attitude? Would you be saying, “Well, golly, sure it’s rape to some people, but these guys don’t see it that way. We need to have respectful and intelligent discussions with them and then let them go home and keep on abusing those kids.”?

Where do you draw the line, Jeffrey? From conception, that baby is *alive*. Denying it is ridiculous. It’s the desperate rationalization of desperate people. These babies need people to stand up and fight for them.

“If it did, abortion wouldn’t be legal because we have the right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country.” Precisely. Try it again. Sit here and tell me, well, those are living cells, because only living cells can grow and divide, but I’m still running with the “fetus is a non-living glob (with magical, life-like growth abilities!)” theory because surely if it was alive, why then everybody would instantly do the right thing and abortions would be banned.

Which one of us is actually being irrational here?

Jeffrey

I never advocated for discussion with pedophiles. I am not proud of myself, I’m actually quite tired from all of this stupid arguing. Does anyone, Republican or Democrat, have a different opinion on pedophilia? Of course not. I’m going to try this ONE more time. Just as you laugh off the person who says Republicans hate the poor, the Democrats you call baby killers will also laugh off (or just get angry at) your remark and consider you to be crazy. You have to be respectful and logical in the way you argue with people of different views if you want them to truly consider your position. You are the one buying into fairy tales if you think science has agreed on what constitutes life. Scientists are at odds on that point, though I tend to definitely AGREE with you. I just don’t agree with your approach. Not that I care what you think, but again I am not a liberal. I believe that life either begins at conception or when the brain starts developing very early on. Heck, we are very close on that, yet your approach almost makes me want to run over to MSNBC and agree with all the nutty posters there. I want people to start a rational dialogue with those they disagree with and truly understand opposing arguments. It would be good for our country and it would be a step in the right direction toward disallowing abortion. You spend all your time on Glenn Beck and FOX, while the other side spends all their time at the HUFF POST and MSNBC. The result is two groups of partisan ideologues who are irreconcilable. YOUR approach of calling people murderers just gets people angry and pushes them away. Sorry but that’s the truth. I know from experience. Where are we in this country when we can’t even talk to the other side anymore? I want the same thing you do, I just think there’s a better way of getting it.

Anonymous

So, the short answer is yes. You buy the crazy lie that a living organism is also non-living because someone told you “science hasn’t determined when life begins” and it apparently hasn’t crossed your mind that maybe people just say that (as irrational as it is) to justify this whole abortion thing in their own minds. Got it. Again, slavery, pedophilia, abortion – these are all crimes against other human beings. It’s bizarre to me that people have no problem standing against two of these things but then suddenly think there’s some kind of valid debate on the third. I’m sorry, but maybe you *should* run over to the “nutty posters” on MSNBC. It seems to me that you have a real desire to adopt their flexible morals rather than take a stand for the victims of abortion. This is much more in line with liberal thinking than you want to believe.

Yes, people get angry when we call them murderers. They should be angry. Of course, it’s misdirected anger, because they should be angry with themselves for ever allowing this to happen. What you are advocating is placating the baby killers like that’s somehow going to make them rethink things. You give them a legitimacy they do not deserve, and in doing so passively allow these deaths to go on. Quit making this sound like we’re simply disagreeing over whether or not chocolate or vanilla ice cream is better! We are talking about the life and death of innocent human beings.

You make me think of an old saying. If a defenseless baby can’t trust you to do the right thing, why should I? Do you “respect” pedophiles? Do you “respect” slavers? If the answer is yes, there’s little hope for you. If the answer is no, then why do you give abortionists a pass? Do you *really* think their rationalizations are any more valid than what the other two groups espouse(d)?

Jeffrey

Let me break down what I’m saying into 3 simple and easy steps since you just don’t seem to be getting it.

1) I basically agree with you on when life begins. I have always held that just because something is small and simple does not mean it isn’t alive or a person.

2) Some people don’t agree with us, having studied the science concerning the beginning of life (which you are apparently unaware of), and coming to different conclusions.

3) Screaming and calling said people baby killers will not get people to agree with us. Laying out why you believe life begins at conception in a logical way while being respectful WILL.

And for the record, I have convinced several pro-choice people to switch to pro-life. On the other hand, people like you have driven quite a few people in the opposite direction. That is just my experience. I guess that means that I’m saving babies and you’re not. I guess that makes you a murderer. Did that last sentence upset you? Well, that’s exactly the kind of approach you are employing. It’s frustrating to have to listen to, isn’t it? Nobody wants to listen to anyone who argues like that.

It’s just like when Democrats say Republicans hate the poor. Or when Vegetarians say people are murderers for eating a hamburger. These are no ways to open a dialogue that will lead to the all important exchange of ideas. It just pisses people off. I believe that Glenn Beck said exactly the same thing I’m saying.

Anonymous

Some scientists also insisted straight through the 80s that there was absolutely no harm at all in smoking cigarettes. That did not make it valid science. I have no idea why you want to give bad science an okay by acting like there’s any validity to the “it’s living but non-living” nonsense. These people did not examine facts and come to a different “scientific” conclusion. They denied and continue to deny the science because it doesn’t work with their agenda. They are lying! To themselves and the rest of the world. (For the record? I have a degree with a double major of mathematics and natural sciences. I graduated with a 4.0. I had courses where I finished with a 100. Yes, 100. That means I got a 100 on every assignment, quiz, paper, and exam. You are the one butchering science here by giving their bunk non-science any credence.)

I have no idea why you think I’m not getting what you’re saying. I get it loud and clear. You seem to be deliberately obtuse on this. You say you believe that life begins when life absolutely begins – the science is NOT in question to anyone being honest about it – but then turn around and basically say people can make up their own science when the facts don’t work the way they want them to and that’s okay with you.

Your sentence did not upset me in the slightest, because it isn’t remotely true. I’ve changed many people’s minds and I suspect much more directly than you, because I also volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. You, on the other hand, are apparently fine with saying things like, “Science is totally flexible and based on opinions rather than facts, so we can even say living cells aren’t alive and then bestow the title of living on them whenever we feel like it to suit our needs.” By refusing to call people out on that load of horse droppings, you allow them to believe they have a real argument and keep this debate going. Like I keep saying, you are legitimizing them and giving them reason to think they have a valid stance. We can “exchange ideas” about many, many things. But we should also be prepared to draw a line when it comes to protecting the lives of innocent children. You are okay with giving their killers a pass and excusing them because you seem to think science is a big joke that can be “interpreted” to any conclusion desired rather than stated and supported by fact. I am not.

Can we be done here? Because I also happen to have a psych degree.(Another 4.0, dear. And I had such a knack for that, I was taking graduate courses when I was only 18 years old.) You probably don’t want to know what I think you’re really up to at this point.

Jeffrey

Yes we certainly can be done. I have a double major in Political Science and Economics. Good for me and good for you. You got good grades. Big deal. Math and psychology have little to do with political discussion as far as I’m concerned. And having a degree in the natural sciences doesn’t mean that you’re right on everything my friend. In fact, you just correctly pointed out to me that science is often wrong. Quite hypocritical! Then you act as if your “degree” in the natural sciences somehow makes you the authority on this matter, as if your knowledge somehow trumps everyone else. If it was that obvious to those “majoring” in science, then this Genetics PhD would have come to a less obviously CRAZY conclusion.

Anyway, as a final note, arrogance as you demonstrated in your post also tends to push people with differing beliefs away. Just FYI. And for the last time, I agree with you on when life begins. I was trying to explain how best to talk to those treating science in the way you describe on this issue. Have a good one!

Tom Sawyer

Jeffrey, you are misguided in the fact that you are assuming the use of hard language against people who murder babies is meant to try and convince them to change their opinions. It isn’t. It’s calling a spade a spade. It’s for all the people who have not yet formed an opinion on the subject, the rising generation who will be influenced by what they see and hear. The people on the fence.

It’s fighting back in the war on words that is currently being waged by people in the media who are currently doing an excellent job of propping up their own agenda. They do this through nice little politically correct terminology that suddenly transforms “murder” into “choice” and “shoving a crude object deep into a woman’s body and squashing the head of an unborn child” into “abortion”. To abort. What a clean word for such a messy, disgusting, inhuman act. It’s a war on public perception, which has transformed completely from 40 years ago, when many of the things that are commonplace and “normal” now were once forbidden and horrific.

As for your argument about “making things illegal will only form black markets”, it is a perfect example of an ideology that has been used to excuse a whole host of terrible things to society as being “normal” and okay, not to mention legal. It is not a sound argument. As has been mentioned, murder is currently illegal. Thanks to this fact, there are people who so desperately want to kill someone else that they will do it in secret, in “back alleys”, they will risk their own lives to do it. There are illegal criminal groups that have formed to help people accomplish this in secret, though joining or receiving assistance from these groups is incredibly dangerous for the person involved. Yet murder is still wrong, and the person who tries to do it in secret knows that it is wrong. THAT is what is at stake by making these illegal, horrible activities “legal”. It then becomes acceptable, and many people who would otherwise NEVER seek out such practices will come to find them as normal as time progresses. It is making a bad thing appear “good”. This is much, much worse than having bad people do illegal secret things to accomplish their immoral desires. The same goes for abortion.

Jeffrey

40 years ago we were just finally passing the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It’s not like society was perfect back then either. Look, first please read this article and try to understand where the other side is coming from.

You won’t get anywhere calling them murderers, but if you talk to them about why you believe life begins at conception, they might just come to agree with you in time. I base this off of personal experience. Also, the media has made everyone who is pro-life out to be crazy. We can’t fall into that trap and look like the people they’ve made us out to be when talking to others. It’s clear that the Republican approach is not working. We’re falling apart as a party. I’m with you on this issue, you just have to understand why some people have a different opinion. Trying to force I’m right and you’re wrong down someone’s throat doesn’t get you anywhere. That is just my opinion as an approach to converting people. For example, instead of calling people baby killers, explain the science behind why you believe life begins at abortion. Make a convincing argument. No one agrees with abortion if they believe that it is an alive human being (well barely anyone that it).

As for the black market argument, it’s just weighing costs and benefits. I agree with you. I have no idea in what way that ideology has been used to excuse terrible things, aside from this issue??? Anyway, my only point is that abortion is currently only legal to a certain point today. In the past, when abortion was illegal, abortions that were VERY late were performed by people who had no idea what they were doing and it was even more grotesque and inhumane than anything they do today. All I was doing was raising a point, not expressing my opinion.

Anonymous

A dialog requires two people and at least one outstretched hand. Sometimes, all the other person desires to do is to cut off the hand. The other hand is extended. The other hand is chopped off. Both hands held contact poison.

Still, someone must extend a hand. Who offers a hand? Who will grasp it?

4,000 children living today will not be living tomorrow.

Lies are easy, Truth is difficult. The Liar we embraced has made it so.

Trust in the Lord.

Jeffrey

And when the other person just wants to cut off the hand, they are not rational to begin with. Most people do not fit this mold, they will listen to what you have to say (if you take the right approach and be respectful). Right now, we are the party who is cutting off the other hand and shutting down dialogue. That is not halting abortions. Look all I’m saying is this. Make a convincing scientific argument to people as to why life begins at conception. No one will listen to you if you just call them a baby killer, yet at the same time if you can convince people that life begins at conception, they will generally oppose abortion. Also, who do you think Jesus would be in the dialog? We have to be the ones with our hands extended. It improves our image, which is a big first step.

Matt Beggs

Honestly, I agree with you Glen. Or I used to. I used to think that in the case of rape abortion was one of two reasons that are justifiable, along with life of the mother. I was convinced on rape the same way, who would be able to move past being violated when the product of that evil is a walking talking person calling you mommy? What changed my mind and made me see that is a false argument is the fact that I was being very stupid. How wrong is it of me to assume that a woman could ever forget that face of evil taking away her innocence. Yeah, the baby won’t let her forget right? Ask a woman who has been raped if they forgot all about it because they didn’t get pregnant.

Jack Maverick

Thanks, Glenn. I’ve made the point for years (or tried to make it) that the free CHOICE is the choice to have sex, which may result in pregnancy. That’s where choice comes in. Abortion is a waaaay-after-the-choice, immature, irresponsible attempt to avoid the consequences of one’s choices.
And you’re right about the language change – no one calls it a “fetus” unless they want to kill it. No one ever asked a woman who’s HAVING her baby, “How’s the fetus?”

Dan Heizinger

Like you were immovable on sodomy being taught in schools, right Glenn? You’re as bad as Cuomo

Fat Lip

Go take out the trash oh and stay right there with it i’m sure it won’t be long they’ll get ya picked up soon.

Fat Lip

I’m getting older now my first girl friend had an abortion when we were in our late teens totally accept my wrong doings at that time i’m not to concerned what anyone thinks about it . Because I think of it everyday.
Don’t think i’m looking for words of encouragement , but know this when the good Lord opens up my record here on earth it scares the hell out of me because we did a horribly bad thing,so us guys think about it to ladies ,contrary to popular belief !
WE BLEW IT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

I would be terrified of what he finds in my life story.

Fat Lip

Hey bro I got ya on that but my spirit tells me now this one is a biggie (murder)cut and dry I blew that commandment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8FvmesaxXg Sam Fisher

Jesus said even having hate in your heart is no different than murder and Lord knows I hated a lot in my past.

Fat Lip

You are a blessing my brother

Anonymous

We all should be.

And He already knows.

Fat Lip

Amen brother

Anonymous

My take on it is: Liberal-democratic parasitic criminal filth love
spending everyone else’ money. They’re about perverted sex too.They’re
the lower forms in any society. But what they enjoy the most of all, is
killing unborn babies. It doesn’t matter whether it’s their own
offspring or others, they get off on the thought of murdering humanities
defenseless. Today they’re killing other people’s (mostly black) babies
too around the world.That’s a fact. Hitler would﻿ blush @ today’s
know-it-all-liberal, why then are they allowed to govern other people?

Abortion is murder, period. God created us and He is the only one who has the authority to end our lives here. He has a plan for each and every one of us, we are so unique He has even numbered the hairs on our heads! Even though a mother dying to try to save the life of her unborn child is devastating, God has a plan, and He will make a way where there seems to be no way! God is still in the miracle business, but how can we know this, if we take circumstances into our own hands? We need to trust Him and stop thinking of ourselves. Focus on Jesus and He will walk us through the fire…. We will be blessed beyond our imaginations!

4life622

Abortion is traumatizing no matter the reason. I know because I had one 36 years ago, and I still remember and regret it. Who was not born and is not alive today because of my choice? I am now a long-time counselor helping women in their unplanned pregnancies and with their past abortion experiences. A woman who is impregnated from rape will be doubly traumatized if she aborts. I know women who conceived because of rape, chose to carry their babies to term and have no regrets. Their beautiful babies remind them of the sanctify of life–not violence. Life trumps violence. I also know people who were conceived in rape who are beautiful individuals full of life–some having children of their own now. To hear they should have been aborted because of how they were conceived is very disturbing to them and many of us….

Jeremy Armour

I agree completely on the life of the mother. You can not force a person to trade her life for the life of another, even her child. If it came to me to make the choice between my wife or the child I would choose my wife without hesitation, but I simply can’t go there with rape. I can’t even imagine what it must be like to be raped, and I’m quite certain that I wouldn’t want to even if I could, but neither can I say that it’s OK to murder the single most innocent person involved for the ‘crime’ of having a rapist for a father. Saving the life of the mother is different. When it comes right down to it that’s self-defense. Self-defense is not murder, but with rape & incest the ‘Morning After Pill’ is as far as I can go. Maybe that’s inconsistent or illogical, but it’s all I can do.

Guest

Abortion is traumatizing no matter the reason. I know because I had one 36 years ago, and I still remember and regret it. Who was not born and is not alive today because of my choice? I am now a long-time counselor helping women in their unplanned pregnancies and with their past abortion experiences. A woman who is impregnated from rape will be doubly traumatized if she aborts. I know women who conceived because of rape, chose to carry their babies to term and have no regrets. Their beautiful babies remind them of the sanctify of life–not violence. Life trumps violence. I also know people who were conceived in rape who are beautiful individuals full of life–some having children of their own now. To hear they should have been aborted because of how they were conceived is very disturbing to them and many of us….

Ronda Doucette

When you spoke of “safe and rare,” you missed part of that, that would have tied in well with your point regarding the legal demand for ultrasounds in the State of Texas:

The statement that “we” (hear President Clinton) wanted them rare begs the question, “Why?” If the matter at hand were a medical issue with “excess tissue” in a woman’s body, I, certainly, have no opinion, nor a right to an opinion, regarding its disposition. The only reason we might have an interest, and hope for rarity, is that we know something is wrong about abortion. So, those removed from the no doubt painful decisions a pregnant mother might face may absolve themselves of some guilt by hoping for rarity.

Rare is of no benefit, unless we confront the truth that abortion kills a human, that a fetus is indeed a live human. So, just as the legal demands in Texas force a mother to confront the fact that she is carrying a human life, the hope for rarity should force someone to confront that same fact.

Anonymous

I have had people argue it is not a baby until it can survive outside the womb. That needing a warm body to grow means it is not viable and without it it will die, so not a baby. Only thing is if that is true no child is safe from abortion. Because even when it is born healthy and strong. It still requires another warm body to survive. Walk away from it and it dies. So by their definition it is not a real baby till it is able to forage and survive on its own. So we could abort them till what? Age 5or 6. These people are inane.

Genny Wood

Glenn, read this quote by Pam Stenzel, speaker at Georgia March for Life today in Atlanta.
“This particular girl chose to give her child life and then to place that child with an adoptive family and that child was me,” Stenzel says. “My biological father was a rapist. I don’t even know my ethnicity, but I’m still a human being and I still have value. And I tell people I didn’t deserve the death penalty because of the crime of my biological father.”

Best defense I’ve ever heard to preserve the life of a child conceived in rape. God bless you Glenn as you wrestle with this.

Take 2

Glenn, the majority of females going along with aborting human life… Need seeing an actual early stage (in its little triangular sack) with his or her little cord cut with absolutely no right. I was forced to see an actual lose of life ie NO XHOICE and re live it every second of my life. Sure baby was not in my body BUT under 3% of all females are abortionist… So. Not a smart political issues with 97% majority of females cattle prodded to vote for 3% with harden hearts. Get it that DEM party is 2/3 atheist – Communist and are baiting female race over a small percentage issue. Read why God through Moses made laws for the lowest percentage issues and what Christ replied when asked about why Moses via God created laws for harden hearted humans.

CathMama8

Glenn, I’m sure this has already been covered by someone much smarter and more eloquent than I, but please consider this…..If we truly believe that God is THE creator…THE author of all things, then why would we, as imperfect, flawed human beings, find it necessary to question and determine whether or not the life of the mother is more important than the life of the child she is carrying or that the trauma that she endured by being raped is more powerful or more lasting than the life of the soul that God allowed to be created in that act of violence? Are we willing to stand firm and shout from the roof tops….”I don’t trust God as much as I trust myself and what I determine to be right and just”? We don’t have to understand. We just have to trust. Women die and leave behind husband’s and children every day. Without a choice. We can shake our fists and curse God until we are blue….it simply doesn’t change the fact that HE is in charge and either we are willing to accept it or we aren’t. Are we going to say that because a Doctor (a flawed, mortal, human being) determines the mother’s life is in danger if the pregnancy is not terminated, that miracles are not possible at any point…..whether he is correct in his assessment or not? Are we willing to say that an act of violence is more powerful than the healing power of God? If we allow the murder of innocent children, we eliminate the power of God to work the miracles that HE has intended in either situation. It’s all about TRUST…..we either trust God to be in charge and work in our lives and the lives of others or we don’t. It’s really that simple.

Anonymous

Yes it is murder and we have no RIGHT taking that life – only God has that right. All the ones out there who are pro-choice imagine if their mothers had felt that way. They would not be here now. The mothers of the ones that are pro-choice loved their babies that is why they had them. If you don’t want to have a baby then you need that birth control obama was giving away for free. The young people now days need to grow up and be responsible.

Anonymous

Why does the left always say “safe and rare?” I get the safe part but if
abortion isn’t wrong then why make it rare?

Anonymous

250 for 1.2 million.

In 1965 according to the USA Vital Statistics about 250 women died from botched abortions along with 250 children. I don’t know the number of botched abortion deaths today but I do know that approx 1.2 million children have died every year by choice since 1974 in the USA alone.

Why? Because of the failure of the Lies of Contraception, Abortion, failure of the Supreme Court and the failure of people. We were sold “freedom”. We bought a bill of goods. Back then Abortion was considered evil by almost everyone and those who chose Abortion suffered badly. With Roe vs. Wade *opinion* the “suffering” was removed and the flow of bodies began.

250 Evils traded for 1.2 million evils.

The repercussions are immeasurable: 55 million less workers, future workers, taxpayers, homeowners, care people. The workforce is aging. The young do not want to “pay” for the old. We taught them to devalue life, not just children. Euthanasia. Death by choice. What value are the sick and old? There are “too many” of them. For their pride, they are eroding the foundation of this country and civilization — they are convincing the young to murder the youngest. Ultimately, they are not concerned with health and the future, they are deceived by an idea — an idea that declares certain people’s lives are not as important as theirs, not as deserving as theirs and not as equal as theirs.

250 mothers-not-to-be traded for ??? deaths?

Be wary of the wordsmiths those who advocate “population control” and “population change”. They are advocating Abortion and, perhaps secretly, “Murder as needed” (their needs, not yours).

The Abortion, pro-death champions throw fundraisers, celebrate supporters and organizations, They celebrate, smile, cheer and march. They are deceiving into thinking that they are achieving “equality”. They are deceived.

4,000 children today will not see tomorrow. By “choice”. Day after Day. The Lies of Contraception and Abortion create nothing but misery and death.

That is nothing to champion.

David Yu-lin Chiu

Pro-choice = pro-rape
since the easy availability of termination
emboldens rapists, and it also generally makes women
more willing to risk pregnancy when pressured for sex
they would otherwise refuse… it’s highly likely that rape
of minors (statutory rape) whether violent, abusive, or
simply between “consenting ” non-adults is more than
100% more frequent due to abortion access — if it was
announced that no speeding tickets would be issued
for less than 20 mph over the posted limit, how many
cars would stay at the “legal” speed?
evidence? there have been several investigations
proving how readily PP does abortions on early teens
w/o checking to make sure it’s not from rape…

Leif Hansen

I believe that abortion as it currently stands is not only murder but unconstitutional. Hence Illegal.

The Declaration of Independence

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The Declaration of Independence(1776) is the moral foundation upon which the Articles of Confederation(1777) and U.S. Constitution(1787) are build upon, as well as the Constitutions of each of the 50 States.

The Declaration of Independence defines in large part what you might call American Republicanism.(The system not party) The basic system of ideals which all Legitimate American governments must be build upon, in general the idea that all rights originate form the people not government.

That as a consequence the people have an incontestable right to remove or reform governments which violate their rights.

It is also technically U.S. federal law as it was in acted by congress.

cre·ate
[kree-eyt]
verb (used with object), cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing.
1. to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.

An embryo is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination. In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks after the last menstrual period or LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.

The development of the embryo is called embryogenesis. In organisms that reproduce sexually, once a sperm fertilizes an egg cell, the result is a cell called the zygote, which possesses half the DNA of each of its two parents. In plants, animals, and some protists, the zygote will begin to divide by mitosis to produce a multicellular organism. The result of this process is an embryo.

So, Now if We are all created equal. The embryo Has the same equal rights as everyone else. To LIFE,LIBERTY,and the pursuit of Happiness.

Sorry to all the Bill de Blasio supporters. But yall are in the wrong. Sorry to all the Pro-Abortion supporters. Yall are in the wrong.And sorry for the Affordable Healthcare Act. You dont override the United States Constitution. Since it does accept abortion as the bill currently stands.

Anonymous

Mr. Beck, though I agree with quite nearly all of what you say, I cannot in good
conscious follow your logic on the grounds of abortion being available
to women that become pregnant due to rape. A baby in the womb
is either human or not a human. His right to life isn’t contingent on
the circumstances surrounding his conception. If a child in the womb is
human (and I believe he/she is), then their right to life cannot be
compromised due to the actions of another, same as if he’d already been
born. Otherwise, a child already born could logically be terminated
just as easily after birth, at 1 month old or 50 years, were he the
product of said circumstances.

Logically,
if there is life in the womb, nothing another person does should be
allowed to deprive him of His rights endowed by his Creator. Make no
mistake, I take rape very seriously. One of my family members was
raped, and if there is anything in this world I could do to undo this
crime and spare this person the pain it caused her, I would–even if it
cost me my own life. But the difference is, it is my life to give and
my choice to make. The baby has no such choice if he/she is aborted.
Not to mention aborting the child doesn’t undo the rape. Nor should
this heinous crime be an excuse to commit another one. Two wrongs don’t
make a right. If someone stabs me, that doesn’t give me the right to
shoot someone else merely because I’ve been wronged. If the mother
wants to give the baby up, there’s a waiting list of couple that want to
adopt. Some of them, like my aunt and uncle, wait up to two years to
adopt a baby. I’m sure you probably already know this adopting yourself. I believe you mean well with this statement, but I don’t see
how you can believe a baby is a child in the womb with a right to life
and believe rape makes it ok to rob him of said life. He’s either alive
with all the natural rights of any child, or he isn’t and any
abortion for any reason is ok.

In case of the mother’s life, I am a single man and can’t imagine what that would be like. To me that would be like being a fireman in a burning building with two trapped people and only enough time to save one. I honestly don’t know what I would do or how I would choose. I think it should be approached with prayer and only after an attempt to save both is made or deemed impossible. Perhaps it would be best to let nature take it’s course and pray that somehow both live, but that’s very different than rape. My fervent hope and prayer is that this country would not only reverse the way it views life in the womb, but all life and the natural laws that govern it. We’ve strayed too far from the path.

Anonymous

I have carefully not read all the arguments (in the proper sense of the word) on this thread – and have only scanned Glenn’s long post on the topic, but read carefully his excellent last three paragraphs. I did it this way so my own post would be my own opinion as developed over my 78 years. I have introduced myself before, but will do so again. I am agnostic, and often refer to myself as atheist (not an Atheist). The distinction comes from the original meaning of the words. I believe in the sanctity of life and in the Ten Commandments – but don’t believe that those necessarily come from the dicta of a God as they are good rules whether from God or from humanity as evolved.

That said, we now come the great distinction of when human life begins – and the dichotomy of choices in Glenn’s last three paragraphs.

Life begins at conception, there is no doubt of that. As soon as an organism can grow by cellular division it is alive. But that includes bacteria, parameciums and other primitive life forms that have existed for billions of years. There was an old theory – the development of the zygote into the fetus into the baby followed the same sequence as the evolution of life forms. In other words, we started as primitive life, then fishes, then early mammals, then became human – and all in the womb. It is discredited now, but there is something to be taken from it.

I fully agree with those on this list who call abortion murder when it is performed on a “humanoid fetus” (please pardon the term, I invented it for this discussion). We know from the sonograms that long before “viability” outside the womb the “fetus” has a human sentience and awareness, even if limited. The question is when?

As one who had an active sex life in his younger days, and that before the pill or the “sexual revolution”, I’m not sure whether I impregnated any women – or if they had abortions at an early stage. I consider myself moral, but there was an old phrase I won’t repeat that said a certain object “has no conscience”. I knew no women who had an abortion, but I knew some who had a “D and C” (we men didn’t know what that was, but the ladies winked at each other about the dilation and curetage). I now understand it, but it was as a very early stage.

The Texas law so denigrated by the left, the “choicers”, was 20 weeks. That is five months! That is 5/9ths of a full term pregnancy, the fetus has developed a form of humanity, although not yet a viability outside the womb. At 20 weeks is is a baby not fully formed.

A woman may not know that she is pregnant at the first missed period, but she can be suspicious. The period varies but an average is 30 days. Let us allow, for sake of argument, a second missed period before she is aware of the possibility – that is 9 weeks, so make it 10. Now she has a pretty good idea that she is pregnant.

Pardon that this is a bit disorganized, I’m trying to balance the two sides of my thinking.

I fully understand and respect the religious viewpoint that human life begins at conception – but I also fully understand and respect the woman’s “right to choose” to abort the development of a primitive life form before it becomes human. The difference in viewpoint is a matter of faith and belief.

But I object to the woman having the choice to medically kill a being in her womb that has developed a sentience. I don’t know how one can define that level of development in secular terms (I am aware that in religious terms it is the moment of conception).

The ant I step on, or the spider or gnat that I slap, is a life. The baby to be is a life at the moment of the first cell division. When does it become a human life?

In summary, the religious among us will always consider human life to be started at conception – and I respect that view. Those of us who are not religious may have varying definitions of the start of human life, but if we are moral we will have one. Professor Singer, an Australian now at my alma mater (Princeton) takes choice so far as to advocate the killing of the newborn if they are “inconvenient” – one of the reasons I give $5 a year to the college instead of more, I give that only in support of my class of 1957,

The old rule for abortion by choice was the “first trimester”, which is a bit more than 12 weeks. I have not seen sonograms of a 12 week fetus/baby so have no way to adjust my feelings on that. If I had to make an uneducated decision on a law I’d make it that the woman could choose for 12 weeks, and that thereafter the choice would have to be a medical one were the woman’s physical health or life be threatened by continuing the pregnancy. None of this crap about her mental health or life style at 24 months, or whatever. Nor would I support abortion because of rape after that trimester, if she didn’t figure out that it was rape after three months then the accusation is suspect.

Glenn, you are not flawed in that first of the last three paragraphs. Life is sacred, even to one like me who doesn’t believe in God, but sometimes one must make a choice between one life and another when both are in danger. Do you save the mother of your other children and the love of your life? Or do you save the potential of the nearly born child who may become the saviour of the world as a great diplomat or scientist? A car is out of control and bearing down on your mother and grandmother and you can only knock one out of the way. Do you choose to save your mother who has a long life ahead of her or do you choose to save your grandmother who can’t possibly jump out of the way and trust that your more active mother can save herself. You will never know unless it happens, the decision can’t be made in advance.

I hope this offers some thoughts to each side. Those who believe that human life begins at conception can’t agree with early abortions. Those that believe that “a woman has a right to her body” can’t agree with any restriction on abortions. In the middle there are those like me who don’t believe that human life begins at conception (the first cell divisions of the fertilized egg), but also believe that it begins at a certain point during development when the cells differentiate enough to have human reactions. When that is is up for grabs as we watch sonograms and so forth.

The Texas law, so denigrated by Wendy Davis, was overly liberal in my opinion. Twenty weeks is far too late in term for optional abortion. Where to put the limit is beyond my knowledge.

For those who might wonder at my experience, my son was being strangled by the umbilical cord after 13 hours of labor – the OB had sent me out to get a drink a half hour before saying this will be hours yet. I got two sips of a scotch on the rocks at the NYC apartment of my wife’s ex-roommate and her husband when the phone rang – “get your butt here, I’m doing an emergency Caesarean”. HIs heartbeat had gone in the womb, he was technically dead. Chip spent four days n the ICU with blue skin and suspected brain damage. That was 1965, he graduated magna cum laude from Carleton College in about ’76, and summa cum laude from U. of Minn. law school (and editor of the law review), and is now a professor of law at Texas Tech. My daughter was born two years later, and the birth was intended to be natural – but, same doctor, same hospital, the doc decided at the last minute to perform a Caesarian. He chose right, same syndrome, the umbilical cord wrapping around her neck so she would have strangled in delivery. Her professorship is at De Paul in communications.

Again I beg your pardon, this time for the personal stories. The hospital was a major one in NYC and we lived fifty miles out of the City in the exurbs. My wife had had difficulty in pregnancies (lost two with miscarriages early). We chose to be sure and go to the best. In a smaller hospital my son would have died, the emergency Caesarian couldn’t have been set up in time (the doc told me “I called for the residents and seven of them rose up from the floor”).

My point is that I respect life as much as the most religious of you. Our difference is in when human life starts. I didn’t cry or grieve over the early miscarriages, they were unformed masses of tissue with only the potential of becoming human (I saw them, they were within the first 8 weeks). I respect your view that even the first living tissue from conception is a human life, but I don’t agree. I can’t put a time on it, but I believe that there is a later point when the fetus becomes a developing human baby – my guess is about the end of the first trimester. I agree with you that it becomes murder after that. But to absolve Glenn’s flaw, I’ll add that intentional killing isn’t always murder – when two lives are in the balance and only one can be saved the choice of one is the killing of the other. That is a heavy burden, and I’m happy I’ve never had to make the choice.

Anonymous

AMEN !

Well stated, well reasoned. (I know, you felt like you were rambling at times, but still….)

Even though you call yourself atheist (little a), you still make an excellent case for God. Look at potential. A handful of dirt has the potential for life, as it contains all the elements that go to make up a life form. BUT — just sitting there, that handful of dirt will never generate life. That was the old “spontaneous generation” thing. However, plant a seed of wheat in it, water it, give it some light, and life will grow out of that handful of dirt. The seed is the obvious carrier of life there.

Now, some will castigate me for comparing a handful of dirt to a baby, or even a fetus, or a “blob of cells.” But Still, that egg and spermatozoa carry that potential for life, even before they are united, and the womb has been prepared for the now fertilized egg (the union of spermatozoa with the egg) to be planted therein. Just as that seed of wheat may have lain dormant for some time, it had at all times that potential of being planted and producing life, and a new head of wheat to continue the strain. Also just as the egg and spermatozoa have the potential for life (admittedly, a much shorter time than a seed of wheat), that potential, when united and ready for realization, can also mature into a fully formed human being, with the allowance for growth and development even until the moment of death. (An 80 year old man learning a new language, for his progress in life?)

Yes, there are arguments for and against abortion in cases of rape, incest and threat (may I emphasize threat, not just “wishes”) to the life of the mother, and these arguments are, as Glenn points out, difficult of resolution. Still, laws should allow for such discussion to take place, on an individual basis, to allow the outcome of those individual discussions to be realized, in a humane and moral atmosphere. For this side, I applaud Texas for requiring the mother to just look at the ultrasound. That puts it into the moral camp, where the innate morals of the mother are addressed. Then she can make her decision. Does she now clearly see the differentiation between “abortion is murder” and “my choice lets me do what I want” — to essentially keep playing around, without lasting consequences.

Consequences. Now there is the crux of the matter. There are consequences that begin the moment she spreads her legs, and maybe even long before, as she develops her own internal moral compass. Then there is the question of what does the man, in this equation, bear? His moral compass is flawed also, by looking only for the moment of pleasure, with no thought of the consequences. I feel he should bear his share of the burden, if it is considered a burden, for the ultimate consequences of his actions also. But he is all too often passed over, forgotten, let roam free, with no consequences that accrue to him. Sad that society is so one-sided here.

Such is society, now, devoid of any positive moral compass to aid in a fair, reasoned discussion of this oh-so-divisive issue of abortion. Do we not all, as a now-spoiled society, have some responsibility for the difficulties we now find ourselves in? Have we aided progress, or worked for retrogression of our moral standing as a nation?

Do we accept and shoulder our responsibilities for our own actions, as the consequences develop? Hopefully, we can grow into a more moral society, as we see the choices becoming more starkly defined between good and evil. And the consequences, for further good or evil.

Laus Deo

Anonymous

Pardon the delay, and I thank you for your kind words and your own well reasoned discussion.

I just lost a beautifully written answer (if I may be so bold as to compliment myself) by trying to look up the Ten Commandments on Google to see which I accepted. I’ll try to be briefer on this second try. The first several have to do with God being God, and a requirement for the belief in God – but those could also be interpreted as mankind’s concept of morality and his ascription of the following moral strictures to God, or a god.

Your last several paragraphs express the real issue – the moral compass of mankind. I am now going to make a provocative statement on that – just for fun.

Religion, by defining the moral laws as coming from God, has caused the loss of moral compass in the society of today. When the non-religious, or anti-religious, think that the moral laws of mankind are dictates from God, or a god – and they no longer believe in God – then they lose the moral compass that may have been evolved in the evolution of mankind. By emphasizing the “tablets of stone” the religious defeat the purpose of morality.

OK, I was brought up in a home with parents who were sort of religious – they were Episcopalian (in the days when it was still a religion instead of a social movement). I went to Sunday School and was a choir boy. I remained in the choir even after I decided that I was atheist (not anti-theist). The service was a time of contemplation, the hymns and anthems a paean to mankind and his god. To this day I contribute my voice to the hymns and anthems when i attend one of the too many funerals I to go to, too many as at my age my friends are going more often.

It doesn’t matter to me where the rules come from, they are the civilized rules. Perhaps I first really learned them at about age 10. My mother noticed a plastic soldier in my collection (1945, we couldn’t get tin soldiers) that she hadn’t bought for me. I confessed that I “hocked” it from the five and dime. She didn’t chew me out – she merely took the soldier, and me, to the five and dime and called for a manager. (As I think of it now, she probably set it up with a phone call). I was required to hand the soldier back to the manager and say “I stole this”. He accepted it back with a thank you, and I was absolved – but not without trauma, the admission of guilt.

Thou shalt not cheat, thou shalt not steal, and the other “thou shalt nots”. I learned them more in that moment than I could have ever been taught in church or Sunday School.

Moral compass doesn’t require religion. Religion is a faith, and has many variations – the various beliefs of Christian sects, Jewish sects, and Islamic (although they are more in the detail than the philosophy). Anti-religion, the Atheist, is also a faith – and the counter religious among us tend to be fully permissive, and by doing so reject the possibility of the rules of mankind that allowed us to evolve as societies. They don’t understand the concept of faithfulness without faith.

I am being watched in every action I take. I am not being watched by God, nor by my mother in heaven – I am being watched by myself and the personal values instilled in my by my parents.

None of this is to say that I don’t hope I’m wrong. Eternal life and a joining with my late parents and all the friends I’ve lost in an eternity would be rather nice. I’m open to the possibility, and hope it happens.

With or without God we should be responsible for our actions. Good and evil exist in mankind. God may have created Earth and mankind in the recent past, or may have been the ultimate Creator of the universe 13.5 billion years ago and set up the evolution, or may just not exist and it is all without plan. I don’t care! I shall lead my life, and have my opinions, based on a moral compass. .

I don’t know what I would have done, or recommended, had one of those ladies who “spread her legs” in my younger days let me know she had become pregnant – it was not a time of easy sex so it wasn’t that often. My moral compass was the same as now, but perhaps not as well developed. My guess is that I would have accepted my shared responsibility.

Anonymous

I believe that we at least need TRUTH IN ABORTION LAWS. Most women, teens, children are not told the whole truth and nothing but the truth about their pregnancy. Everyone should be told and given all of the possible negative out comes and given a 3D sonogram of their Babies. The truth is completely hidden from the general population. Seek the truth. Demand that women are told the truth. The Truth will help us break free from this. I think the republican party should campaign on this idea.

Jim

Agree with you 100% Glenn. Another argument you should share on your show since you have such a large audience, google “sled test” frim focus on the family. Keep up the good work.

Shirley

I heard a woman speak a few years ago who had been raped and did not have an abortion. She gave the baby up for adoption. she said that knowing that she would be and did make a family very happy gave her the strength and the peace to make it through the pregnancy. I hope this helps anyone who may be in that terrible situation. May God give any woman who finds herself in this awful situation the strength to survive.

Sharon Tomalavage

The baby is no less a baby because it was conceived thru violence, any more than a born baby would be or should be less valued because it was conceived thru the same violence. As soon as we recognize that because we are a civilized society, the better we will be for it.

Anonymous

You are not inconsistent, Glenn. It is ethical to take a life in self defense. The mother’s life being in danger makes the issue one of self defense.

jevans

Glenn, I am so disappointed in you. You have followed the mentality of the mass media in regard to rape conception. Your position is very hurtful to women who conceive in rape. Perhaps you should talk to some women who have walked in those shoes and find out what they have to say.

As the mother of a child conceived by incestuous rape, I am insulted and belittled on many levels by the connection of abortion and rape. I am sick of abortion
campaigners exploiting rape victims to serve their agenda.

1. Statistics show more than 70% of women who conceive in rape DO NOT
choose abortion. The expectation by society that these women WANT to have an
abortion is just an excuse to approve of abortion on some level in our society,
and it is demeaning to these women and their children to be pointed out as a
segment of population as humans having no value.

2. My child is just like every other child, she feels pain, she laughs and loves and
lives her life. Her method of conception has nothing to do with her human-ness or her quality of life. My child gave me hope for the future and a purpose to go on in my life. She was the good that came from a bad situation. She saved me from despair after rape.

3. An abortion does not make the rape go away. It only makes the woman both raped and the mother of a dead baby. Putting those two things together only
worsens a woman’s position, it doesn’t resolve it.

4. Rape is violence. Abortion is violence. A woman who has been raped does not want to commit violence toward another human being. She does not want to be like her attacker. She views her baby as another victim of her rapist, and wants to protect her child, not harm it.

5. It is time for society to stand up for these women and children as strong and capable human beings that can face adversity and win against it. They are not poor little victims. They can and do grow from the experience and often become better human beings full of compassion and purpose that comes from their bad experience. Everyone has tragedy in life. Its what you do with that tragedy that matters.

Please listen to what these women have to say, and then rethink your position to support them and their children. They have infinite worth and something important to teach others.

“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.” ~Elisabeth Kübler-Ross.

Genny Wood

Thank you for sharing your extremely wise and insightful true story. Please keep speaking out – you deserve a platform.

Anonymous

Maybe teaching women to redirect their anger at the person who deserves it — they are taking the anger out on the baby. It doesn’t affect the person who raped her or the male who ran away after she gets pregnant; she has done them a favor. Teach women the best revenge is to protect the unborn child (a law that prevents the man from knowing about the child if he is a rapist) or if the man ups and runs, his social security number has an alert set up for child support payments and if he is threatening because he didn’t want to pay; she can get a protection set up that he can’t not find her but the funds go child support go to a special account for her. Males who don’t want to pay, will never be able to have a good paying job, they will live like bums until they do the right thing. In other cases such as; I have seen women get abortions because they can’t afford a set of twins and only want to keep one, there should be a law; no abortion but they can put the unwanted baby up for adoption and so on.

Lisa Van Drese

I cannot condone abortion unless it is medically necessary for the mother. I believe that the choice is made when you decide to have sex. I think we are all born for a very specific reason, and we all deserve a chance at life. As a mom who waited many years for a baby, I can’t imagine someone snubbing out an innocent baby. There are many that would cherish that child.

Becky

Glenn, if you say you believe in a rape exception, you are saying to that child, “Your life has value UNLESS…” How can that be a prolife position?

People should only have sex for the purpose of procreation. So if you want two kids you only have sex twice in your life.

Jamie Proctor Pataky

The Abortion issue is HUGE~ You are right it is time to talk about it!! I am a nurse and I work with pregnant women every day! I have seen alot I have delivered still born fetus’ at 12-17 weeks gestation that are fully developed, fully recognizable male or female and undeniably a LIFE…. I once sat beside a DOc as we delivered a 26 week baby girl and watched and prayed as a neonatal team fought to help her live… as her momma cried! ( That same momma brought her back 2 years later to thank us!!) I have been party to adoptions, premature births that ended good and not so good… I have witnessed drug addiction babies and once a drug addict mom even abandoned her baby with us at the nurses desk, walked away ….never to return! I have been doing home visitation for the past 6 years and I have met some of the most BRAVE and Courageous young women… Five total who were victims of rape.. Some strangers, some date rape, one incest and one gang rape, ALL of these women chose to keep their babies!! Each of them with a remarkable story of God’s grace. They each understood that their children were innocent, yet created by GOD to bring them Grace, Mercy and Healing … Not suffering and a constant reminder of the trauma! I am not GOD and I do not understand the whys and reasons bad things happen~ BUT I KNOW that God creates life, he ordains our steps! If not by the Grace of God any one of us could have been aborted! My mother was 15 years old when she found herself pregnant with me.. BUt GOD had a purpose for me on this earth and I am so thankful that I lived to walk it out~ unlike my sibling twins who did not have the chance to fill GOD’s divine purpose! My mom was “Pro-life” and at 18 she did not want anymore of my dad’s children… It was 1975 and she did not like him anymore… She had a choice! ( that sounds ridiculous to me) My father never learned of this “CHOICE” until he was lashing out his liberal views on the subject at me one day~ so I told him. 40 + years down the road ABORTION has had an adverse effect on all of us. I am 100% Pro-life without exception Mr. BEck! I respect that you admit you have flawed thinking… I even understand why. It is very hard to relate to a situation of this magnitude unless you are living it. It is impossible to know what you would do. I even met a woman whose life was in danger and four Doctors urged her to terminate her pregnancy to save her own life… I then met her 18 month old beautiful daughter ~ A young girl whose life was created by The Great Physician who knew more than any Dr here in America~ Her days are numbered and she was put perfectly in her mothers womb… for such a time as this! I will pray that your mindset can be changed as God deals with your heart on this issue… The pro life movement must unite as we make a STAND for LIFE… to change the mindset of future generations~ WITHOUT EXCEPTION

Tom

Pro-Life for some reason seems to end after nine months. Why is that?

Russell Williams

Maybe its time for a different tac on Roe v Wade. In my
understanding, the defination of when life begins was never established. The
Declaration of Independence states: “We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the
pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
among Men. “ Rights precede government.

Roe v Wade did not error on the side of caution but on the
side of convienence. If it is found that life begins at conception, will all
those who pushed in favor of the abortion issue be guilty of conspiracy to
commit murder? Where will we put them all?

A solution to the rampent aboration rate is to require the
all women who have aborations get fixed. If a woman chooses to end the life of
her child, remove the overies at the same time. If in the case of rape, have
the man be castorated. This will cut down on the number of casual hookups that
can lead to the want of an aboration.

In the case of danger to the life to the womans life, let it
be known that the physican who determans the need for the abortionshould be on
the hook for the life they are taking. Let there be prison time involved if the
womans life is not truly in danger. This will scare off those who would profit
from the death of the unborn.