WWI Digest 1036
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Mick Fauchon
2) Re: the silence - plus combat reports
by Ernest Thomas
3) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Mick Fauchon
4) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
5) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Ernest Thomas
6) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by KarrArt
7) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by KarrArt
8) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Ernest Thomas
9) Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
by Ernest Thomas
10) Re: the silence - plus combat reports
by Bob Pearson
11) Memorial Day
by "Leonard Endy"
12) Re: Mystery Jasta in Italy
by perrysm@juno.com
13) Hustads Dio
by mbittner@juno.com
14) Re: Hustads Dio
by "P. Howard"
15) Re: the silence
by Charles Hart
16) Re: Hustads Dio
by mbittner@juno.com
17) Re: Hustads Dio
by Ernest Thomas
18) Re: Hustads Dio
by KarrArt
19) Re: Hustads Dio
by "P. Howard"
20) Re: Woodman articles
by "Tom Werner Hansen"
21) Re: Hustads Dio
by mbittner@juno.com
22) Re: Hustads Dio
by mgoodwin@ricochet.net
23) RE: Hustads Dio
by Pedro e Francisca Soares
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:39:12 +1000 (EST)
From: Mick Fauchon
To: wwi
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID:
Robert,
> Always more room!
Thanks, mate. Glad to be aboard.
> improve my stuff. I'm not terribly sure of the history of figure painting, but
> it seems sometime in the mid 60s a certain "look" started developing that was
> an improvement over the traditional toy soldier approach, but since then,
> things have settled into a routine with little further progress. This stylized
> approach has not gone on to the next step- which is the realistic portrayal of
> light and shadow.
I think you'll find that it has. Without any false modesty, I use
it myself. Have a look at the great Bill Horan's work. If you want to
take this up off-air, I'll be glad to oblige.
I'm not quite sure how to phrase this- I hope I start seeing
> more soldiers arranged and painted with reality as the point insted of making
> a good looking model. Hustad's trench diorama that was in FSM a little while
> ago certainly was a step in this direction! I'd gladly steal ideas from him!
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hats off to Steve.
Cheers,
Mick.
-- --
Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
M M
M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*#@...!!" M
M M
M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M
M M
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:47:59 -0500
From: Ernest Thomas
To: wwi
Subject: Re: the silence - plus combat reports
Message-ID: <3569060F.3443@bellsouth.net>
mgoodwin@ricochet.net wrote:
>
> I was concentrating on various treatments for the existing wheels
> > on how to make them look right .... hadnt thought of photo-etch. I was
> > thinking about stealing the wheels off of a couple of 1950s era 1/43 F1 cars
> > (spoked wheels with, best of all, rubber tyres) but when I looked at them they
> > were not as good a match as I had remembered, the sizes are completely wrong
> > and, even if they weren't, they just wouldnt look right (the rubber is too
> > wide and doesn't look right for that era ).
>
> Dave,
>
> One word: SKIS! You needn't muck about with PE unless you really want
> to. I've read that Winters are long in parts of Russia, and these
> 'planes spent a good deal of time on snow.
>
> Riordan
He's got a real good point there Dave.
E.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:05:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Mick Fauchon
To: wwi
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID:
Ern,
> While I agree with most everything that's been said on this thread, I
> have to,1; make a plea for Verlinden,
Just so we get this straight: I'm not knocking *anyone's*
personal technique......I'll learn from anybody. What gets up my nose is
a rash of e.g. Verlinden clones, who won't venture away from "the technique".
and 2;ask a question.
> 1; Don't come down so hard on Verlinden.
I'm not. I don't mind his style, but I don't want to see it used
on every second figure I see.
> techniques, like Bill Horan's.
For whom I have a great deal of respect and appreciation.....but
again, I wouldn't insult him by using my copy of his technique.
Granted, some modelers will learn one way
> and think it's the only way. But not all of us. Some use the Verlinden
> method as a spring board to launch themselves into an exploration that
> will yeild new ideas and techniques. So please, let's not attack some
> particular style that, while getting stale, is still the best alot of us
> can do.
I respectfully submit that merely copying is *not* the best that
anyone can do. Most people develop their own personal syle by *adapting*
rather than copying what appeals to them in other people's styles. As I
said, even the old masters weren't averse to it.
> 2;How could the portrayal of light and shadow be more realisitc than the
> current popular methods?
I wasn't arguing that it could. Again, witness Bill Horan.
I'm not asking to imply that it can't be any
> better, it's just that I'm still trying to master the current popular
> methods. And if there's a better approach, I would like to know about it
> so I can study that one instead.
There's no better approach tha the one you work out for yourself
......with the best help you can get from others. Nothing wrong in that.
It just takes time. You'll probably find tht your style will change from
time to time as you try different methods. Nothing wrong in that either.
Witness the Old Masters again.
> Precariously balancing on the edge of the soap-box,
You've got finger-nails......hang on, man!
But careful as you come aboard; we don't have a lot of freeboard
left 80)
Cheers,
Mick.
-- --
Mick Fauchon | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
M M
M Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*#@...!!" M
M M
M Yosemite Sam : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M
M M
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:30:51 -0700
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <356A1B4B.18AB@connectorsystems.co.nz>
> 1; Don't come down so hard on Verlinden. I'm pretty new to figure
> painting(about 4 years) and I must say that seeing Verlinden figures was
> one of the things that got me interested in this really neat aspect of
> the hobby. And if it weren't for 'The Verlinden Way' I might have gotten
> frustrated with it and given up. It may be McTechnique to some painters,
> but it's a pretty decent basis for beginners. And now that I'm
> comfortable with his approach, I'm ready to start trying other
> techniques, like Bill Horan's. Granted, some modelers will learn one way
> and think it's the only way. But not all of us. Some use the Verlinden
> method as a spring board to launch themselves into an exploration that
> will yeild new ideas and techniques. So please, let's not attack some
> particular style that, while getting stale, is still the best alot of us
> can do.
No, it's not a shot at Verlinden, more a concern that this method is
seen by some as the only way - the making models of models approach I
mentioned earlier. The Verlinden Style has become THE style, one which
works well for an artist who has a sure command of colour and light, but
faslls short when the technique is applied without proper study as to
what it is supposed to depict.
I used to love my yearly Historex catalogue - there were a number of
French modellers in particular, who eschewed gritty realism in favour of
a sort of three dimensional oil painting in an appropriately Romantic
style. (Thinking of Romantic painters, who remembers Ray Lamb's Chasseur
after the famous Gericault painting twenty odd years ago?)
If Verlinden is Bach - all technique and intellectuallism -those French
painters whose names escape me now were the Handels - achieving stunning
effects within the means at their disposal.
> 2;How could the portrayal of light and shadow be more realisitc than the
> current popular methods? I'm not asking to imply that it can't be any
> better, it's just that I'm still trying to master the current popular
> methods. And if there's a better approach, I would like to know about it
> so I can study that one instead.
There's nowt wrong with the methods - the trick is to be subtle with the
shading and highlighting. Verlinden generally understood this, some of
those who came after didn't quite pick upon it. But I think there's
another question to ask as well -will the technique suit the subject?
That is possibly why those gorgeously painted Historex figures worked
for me. I associate the period with the Romantics, and a model that
evokes this by making reference to this style of painting is deeply
evocative. The atmosphere is an essential part of the success - a less
than perfect model may evoke this atmosphere better than a technically
perfect model finished in a fairy bland fashion.
Now, throwing this back on-topic, one of the things I assoociate with
WWI are grainy scratched photos or silent films of grim-faced men going
over the top under the endless grey skies of Flanders. There's yer
atmoshpere agin, but how to depict such an intangible thing? Perhaps I
should do a cubist MkI Tank or paint my models in Scratchy B&W. Scratchy
models I can manage without help BTW
Aidrian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:25:11 -0500
From: Ernest Thomas
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <35690EC7.713E@bellsouth.net>
KarrArt wrote:
>
I guess if I have a gripe with
> anybody, it's the judges who've come to expect a certain "look" and if any
> work deviates, it's outahere.
No argument on that one. Without boring you with the anecdote, imagine
figure painting in the impressionistic style.
I also have to say there are no sour grapes on
> my part because I've never entered a competition on these categories-
I enter these catgories so I won't be alone like I am in the Bi-plane
catagory. Which compels me to toot my own horn a bit. If you can put
your hands on the Feb 97 FSM,(AH-1W Super Cobra on the cover) the pilot
figure on page 45 in the Reader Gallery is one of mine that never won
anything.
> And I'll tell ya, Ern, welcome to the crate!
> Threads like this prove that there is a lot of mental ferment and questioning
Are you calling me a drunk?/%}
E.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 03:12:17 EDT
From: KarrArt
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <979d5e0a.356919d2@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-25 02:28:42 EDT, you write:
<< I enter these catgories so I won't be alone like I am in the Bi-plane
catagory. Which compels me to toot my own horn a bit. If you can put
your hands on the Feb 97 FSM,(AH-1W Super Cobra on the cover) the pilot
figure on page 45 in the Reader Gallery is one of mine that never won
anything.
>>
'Tia a bit late, my last check before drifting off into Robert's dream world-
but I shall have a look in the morning!
Robert K.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 03:12:18 EDT
From: KarrArt
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <3d996e6a.356919d3@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-25 02:28:42 EDT, you write:
<< And I'll tell ya, Ern, welcome to the crate!
> Threads like this prove that there is a lot of mental ferment and
questioning
Are you calling me a drunk?/%}
E. >>
Growing up between a little beer bar and a vacant lot, one day my buddy and
myself were flying u-control airplanes in the lot. My friend had just
performed a perfect landing ( which means nothing broke) with his ready-made
Dauntless when this drunk staggered out of the bar. A witness to this aviation
feat, he stumbled across the field, bowed to my friend and said "Son, if I had
a medal, I'd pin it on ya", saluted, then he walked away. I don't think this
answers your question, but it seems to fit the context.
Robert K.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:21:17 -0500
From: Ernest Thomas
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <35691BED.731C@bellsouth.net>
KarrArt wrote:
one day my buddy and
> myself were flying u-control airplanes in the lot.
Ah! Good old control line. My nickname for my 14 month old nephew is
049. Because of a sound he was making one day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:26:10 -0500
From: Ernest Thomas
To: wwi
Subject: Re: convention-was Are we filling too many seams?
Message-ID: <35691D12.33E2@bellsouth.net>
Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton wrote:
> Now, throwing this back on-topic, one of the things I assoociate with
> WWI are grainy scratched photos or silent films of grim-faced men going
> over the top under the endless grey skies of Flanders. There's yer
> atmoshpere agin, but how to depict such an intangible thing? Perhaps I
> should do a cubist MkI Tank or paint my models in Scratchy B&W. Scratchy
> models I can manage without help BTW
>
> Aidrian
Wouldn't that fall as much to scene and setting as to painting style?
Sure, getting good expressions is the real trick(and one of the problems
I find with the Verlinden approach, if I may now contridict myself and
stick a size 10&1/2 Converse Chuck Taylor Allstar tennis shoe in my
mouth) to figure painting. But it's the whole picture you're portraying
that makes or breaks you. And that can be real tricky. Steve Hustad's
trench dio is a real nice piece of work. Let me first offer this
disclaimer; I'm going from memory and don't have the picture in front of
me. But I don't feel that it expressed the story as well as it could
have. Every account of trench life I've ever read goes to great lenght
to describe and emphasize the mud. And I felt that was lacking from
S.H.'s trench dio. And something bugged me about the skeleton too. But I
don't remember what.
I guess I'll go to bed after that last bit of blasphemous rambling so I
can be well rested for the backlash tomorrow.
Ern
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:09:35 -0700
From: Bob Pearson
To: WW1 Mailing list
Subject: Re: the silence - plus combat reports
Message-ID: <08093559449094@KAIEN.COM>
Andy,
It boggles the mind how Graves could think that publishing books using these
stolen reports would go unnoticed - or were those he purloined different
from the ones in his MvR line of books?
Bob
----------
> From: "Andy Kemp"
> I saw these some time ago, and queried their provenance with the bloke who
> runs the site. He claimed that these were all legit, actually from the
> estate of a WW1 pilot. Believe that - I'm sure!!!
>
> FYI CCI are currently putting aside a budget each year for buying up these
> items, and returning them to the PRO - if they don't have a copy.
>
> Graves got a lot of stuff from the PRO - but fortunately the grerastest
> proportion was returned to the PRO when they caught him and searched his
> house. However, those awfully efficient people from the PRO didn't bother
> checking too closely which files the goodies came from. Check through half
a
> dozen files and you'll find at least one which has a "sundry document"
> inserted, which was nicked by Graves, and mis-filed on its return. I've
> found 17 Sqn USAS combat reports in 45 Sqn, RNAS station records in RFC
> files etc etc etc.
>
> Andy ...
>
> >> http://www.leisuregalleries.com/combatr.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:49:37 GMT
From: "Leonard Endy"
To: wwi
Subject: Memorial Day
Message-ID: <3569593c.10090003@legend.firstsaga.com>
I came across this little poem this morning while reading the paper
and thought I would pass it along:
We pause to remember those who died
With so much courage,
So much pride.
They'll never come back,
but memories endure
To remind us of freedom: fragile, pure.
We're worthy of their sacrifice
If we pause each day
Not just on the last Monday in May.
Len
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:05:16 -0400
From: perrysm@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Mystery Jasta in Italy
Message-ID: <19980525.080516.13198.0.perrysm@juno.com>
>39: Only personal markings are known on D.IIIs in Italy. Raben's
>raven.
>Another had thick vertical fuselage stripes. Another had horizontal
>white
>lines on fuselage and top decking. **I seem to remember seeing a shot
>of
>these planes in another photo, but they aren't the planes pictured in
>the
>photo I'm investigating.**
>
Kevin:
FWIW, on pg 2 of the Albatros Fighters Special there is a photo of 4
Albatros fighters from Jasta 39 in Italy. Two with stripes, Raben's
machine and a fairly standard colored one. The source is listed as Dr.V
Koos.
sp
_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:23:03 -0500
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <19980525.102304.16926.1.mbittner@juno.com>
Although I deleted the message from Ernest before I had a chance to
reply...
If you're wondering what's wrong with Steve's skeleton (and don't get me
wrong, he's a great friend):
Count the ribs...
Matt Bittner
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:02:50 -0500
From: "P. Howard"
To:
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <002001bd87f6$921cafa0$27868ece@phoward>
Oh No... Another rib counter... ;-)
Wait!!! I thought that mania was Robert's, and your's was really tiny
Nieuports!
Stop confusing my sterotypes! How can I look condescendingly down from
above, if you keep changing things up on me?
Why, the next thing you know, you'll be building in 1/48th scale...
Accurate Miniatures will announce an entire line of WWI Kits do to the
overwhelmingly large customer base.
Hasegawa will announce they intend to include parts and decals for all
possible versions IN ONE BOX!
Windsock Datafiles will be available at the corner drugstore for $2.95 per
copy!
"...Dogs and cats sleeping together; mass hysteria! The end of the world as
we know it..."
CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATELY MR. BITTNER
You have not cleared any of this through the proper channels, and so
obviously we cannot end the world today. :-)
You will immediately revert back to your previous psychosis, or I'll be
forced to push the YELLOW Button!
Paul H
The Righteously Indignant
-----Original Message-----
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: Multiple recipients of list
Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 10:24 AM
Subject: Hustads Dio
>Although I deleted the message from Ernest before I had a chance to
>reply...
>
>If you're wondering what's wrong with Steve's skeleton (and don't get me
>wrong, he's a great friend):
>
>Count the ribs...
>
>
>Matt Bittner
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:20:28 -0700
From: Charles Hart
To: wwi
Subject: Re: the silence
Message-ID:
Was someone lamenting about the lack of posts on this list ?
Charles
hartc@spot.colorado.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:22:59 -0500
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <19980525.113050.16286.0.mbittner@juno.com>
On Mon, 25 May 1998 12:05:52 -0400 "P. Howard"
writes:
>Oh No... Another rib counter... ;-)
>
>Wait!!! I thought that mania was Robert's, and your's was really tiny
>Nieuports!
>Stop confusing my sterotypes! How can I look condescendingly down
>from
>above, if you keep changing things up on me?
>
>Why, the next thing you know, you'll be building in 1/48th scale...
>Accurate Miniatures will announce an entire line of WWI Kits do to the
>overwhelmingly large customer base.
>Hasegawa will announce they intend to include parts and decals for all
>possible versions IN ONE BOX!
>Windsock Datafiles will be available at the corner drugstore for
>$2.95 per
>copy!
>"...Dogs and cats sleeping together; mass hysteria! The end of the
>world as
>we know it..."
>
>CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATELY MR. BITTNER
>You have not cleared any of this through the proper channels, and so
>obviously we cannot end the world today. :-)
>
>You will immediately revert back to your previous psychosis, or I'll
>be
>forced to push the YELLOW Button!
ROTFL!!!H!!!
That's good.
No need to worry, it's still The King's Scale and Nieuports for me...I
just like finding "flaws" with Steve Hustad's work. :-)
Matt Bittner
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:56:45 -0500
From: Ernest Thomas
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <3569B0DD.1725@bellsouth.net>
mbittner@juno.com wrote:
>
> Although I deleted the message from Ernest before I had a chance to
> reply...
>
> If you're wondering what's wrong with Steve's skeleton (and don't get me
> wrong, he's a great friend):
>
> Count the ribs...
>
> Matt Bittner
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Help me out here, Matt. What issue of FSM is the dio in? (just so I'll
know what I'm talking about).
I hadn't noticed the ribs. What I think bothered me was this skeleton
that has been striped of it's clothes, decomposed to the point of being
nothing but bleached white bones, yet still doing a good job of
maintaining it's basic skeleton configuration. I would think bones in
this state would be just a pile of bones at best, but more likely random
scattered bones. Especially in the unstable evironment of the front line
trenches.
But I could be wrong. Maybe we could get a medical opinion from one of
the good doctors on the list?
E.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:16:57 EDT
From: KarrArt
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <2f1b6ff2.3569b59a@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-25 14:00:33 EDT, you write:
<< would think bones in
this state would be just a pile of bones at best, but more likely random
scattered bones. Especially in the unstable evironment of the front line
trenches.
But I could be wrong. Maybe we could get a medical opinion from one of
the good doctors on the list?
E. >>
This perfectly explains why this list is so great.This thread started off with
ruminations about seam filling and here we are wondering about corporeal
decomposition!
Robert K. (busy counting his own ribs)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:41:47 -0500
From: "P. Howard"
To:
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <003901bd880c$c6c31260$27868ece@phoward>
Robert,
You're absolutely right! I am wondering about what corporeal decompostion
is... ;-) Just kidding.
But really, how many ribs do you have? I saw some ribs at the store the
other day and said "Hey Self, wouldn't those ribs be great with some hot and
spicy barbeque sauce on em." I figured after that great BBQ you were
telling us about, you might have come up a few short...
Hey, what is a holiday, if you can't become disconnected with reality? ;-)
Cheers,
Paul H
-----Original Message-----
From: KarrArt
To: Multiple recipients of list
Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
>In a message dated 98-05-25 14:00:33 EDT, you write:
>
><< would think bones in
> this state would be just a pile of bones at best, but more likely random
> scattered bones. Especially in the unstable evironment of the front line
> trenches.
> But I could be wrong. Maybe we could get a medical opinion from one of
> the good doctors on the list?
> E. >>
>
>This perfectly explains why this list is so great.This thread started off
with
>ruminations about seam filling and here we are wondering about corporeal
>decomposition!
>Robert K. (busy counting his own ribs)
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:22:28 +0200
From: "Tom Werner Hansen"
To:
Subject: Re: Woodman articles
Message-ID: <199805251922.VAA09808@d1o211.telia.com>
Greetings all
I guess I'll risk it. Here's the second part of Woodman's articles on
German national markings.
For pictures, contact me off-list.
Tom
This article was printed in Airfix Magazine Volume 15 nr.10 June 1974.
German national markings 1914-1918
Part 2: Army aircraft, July 1916 to March 1918
by Harry Woodman
AS WAS POINTED OUT in Part 1 of this series, German aircraft carried
crosses from the earliest days of the war. At the beginning, the variation
in style, position and proportion varied considerably and by mid-1916 the
variations still continued. It may have been an urge for standardisation or
pressure from the manufacturers for guidance which precipitated an order
dated July 25 1916 which sought to regularise the position. This order
addressed to all manufacturers and contractors stated that the size and
shape of the cross was to be according to the instructions enclosed with
the order. The sketch illustrates this cross, and with the diagram were
issued a set of proportions to suit most eventualities. The cross was to be
painted in the largest size that the surface would permit.
Order of July 25,1916, Proportions
H = Height, B = 0.4 of height, R = radius (1.3 of height)
H =500 600 700 1000 1200 1400
B =200 240 280 400 480 560
R =650 780 910 1300 1560 1820
(All measurements in millimetres)
At this stage no guidance was given, as far is known, regarding the
background to the cross, this apparently being left to the manufacturer's
discretion. However, another order was issued on October 29 1916 which
stated that day aircraft should carry a cross surrounded by a white
outline, 5 cm wide (about 2 inches). Night aircraft were to carry a plain
black cross only without any outline. The order went further and defined
the actual positions of the cross on the aircraft which merely confirmed
what had been general practice for some time. Crosses were to be carried on
the fuselage sides, fin/rudder (usually overlapping both) and, on all four
wing tips. Those placed on the upper surface of the upper wing were usually
situated so that the inner flat end of each cross was in line with the edge
of the aileron, but there were many exceptions to this.
Despite the order regarding the white outline to the cross, many
manufacturers did not include this on the crosses placed on the under
surfaces of the wings which were sometimes clear varnished or, by mid-1916,
light blue. Many of the Pfalz D III and IIIa series which were factory
finished in dull silver carried no white surround.
It is emphasized that this order was passed to the manufacturers and
sub-contractors so that new machines straight from works carried the cross
in the proportions indicated. It is quite apparent from a study of
photographs that many machines in service in the field did not have their
crosses altered straight away or at all and variations were still present.
The method of applying these crosses is interesting; the writer has in his
possession a picture (unfortunately not suitable for reproduction) showing
a workman applying the crosses to the wings of what appear to be Albatros
D.Vs. He is using a half template (split down the middle of the vertical
arm of the cross) made of some flexible material which is placed over the
wing. It appears that the white outline was applied first for the workman
is applying white dope around the edge of the template. The black cross was
apparently painted inside the white outline. In connection with this it is
interesting to note that the use of the white outline only which was seen
on many German aircraft of the Second World War (the black cross being
absent) was also used in the First World War, for there are several
pictures showing large bombing aircraft (Zeppelin Staaken and in the case
of at least one Friedrichshaven) where this 'skeleton cross' is applied.
The Iron Cross continued to be the national marking of German aircraft
until March 1918 when a further order was given which changed the shape and
character of the symbol. This will be dealt with in the next instalment.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 14:10:19 -0500
From: mbittner@juno.com
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <19980525.142809.11462.2.mbittner@juno.com>
On Mon, 25 May 1998 14:02:26 -0400 Ernest Thomas
writes:
> Help me out here, Matt. What issue of FSM is the dio in? (just
> so I'll know what I'm talking about).
December 1997.
> I hadn't noticed the ribs. What I think bothered me was this
> skeleton that has been striped of it's clothes, decomposed to
> the point of being nothing but bleached white bones, yet still
> doing a good job of maintaining it's basic skeleton
> configuration. I would think bones in this state would be just a
> pile of bones at best, but more likely random scattered bones.
> Especially in the unstable evironment of the front line
> trenches.
Well, the one thing I thought of was in the ever increasing mud,
it would keep the body pretty much intact. Then, when it was
exposed, it would be almost intact.
Unless it was exposed due to a shell. The there would be no
trace what-so-ever of the body in any state. :-)
> But I could be wrong. Maybe we could get a medical opinion from
> one of the good doctors on the list?
Oh heck, why do we need those guys? :-)
BTW, nice figure. I didn't put two-and-two together when I first
saw it - then again, I don't think I looked at it since it was
the wrong era. ;-)
Matt Bittner
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:19:06 -0700
From: mgoodwin@ricochet.net
To: wwi
Subject: Re: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <3569C429.7365@ricochet.net>
Ernest Thomas wrote:
>
> mbittner@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Although I deleted the message from Ernest before I had a chance to
> > reply...
> >
> > If you're wondering what's wrong with Steve's skeleton (and don't get me
> > wrong, he's a great friend):
> >
> > Count the ribs...
> >
> > Matt Bittner
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
> Help me out here, Matt. What issue of FSM is the dio in? (just so I'll
> know what I'm talking about).
> I hadn't noticed the ribs. What I think bothered me was this skeleton
> that has been striped of it's clothes, decomposed to the point of being
> nothing but bleached white bones, yet still doing a good job of
> maintaining it's basic skeleton configuration. I would think bones in
> this state would be just a pile of bones at best, but more likely random
> scattered bones. Especially in the unstable evironment of the front line
> trenches.
> But I could be wrong. Maybe we could get a medical opinion from one of
> the good doctors on the list?
> E.
Would an archaeologist do?
In my limited experience with historic remains, I can tell you that
muscles, tendons and ligaments tend to hold the body together as they do
in life. It is only through the vigorous efforts of scavengers,
necrophages (bugs, microbes,) and geologic processes that remains become
disarticulated.
Clothes tend to last an incredibly long time. There is a famous photo of
a skeletonized German soldier still wearing uniform, gloves and boots
that illustrates this beatifully .
FWIW,
Riordiana Jones
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:29:51 +0200
From: Pedro e Francisca Soares
To: "'wwi@pease1.sr.unh.edu'"
Subject: RE: Hustads Dio
Message-ID: <01BD881B.E0981640@fei1-p7.telepac.pt>
-----Original Message-----
From: mbittner@juno.com [SMTP:mbittner@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 25, 1998 5:24 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Hustads Dio
If you're wondering what's wrong with Steve's skeleton (and don't get me
wrong, he's a great friend):
Count the ribs...
Not only that Matt. The tapes are also missing. of course, they were =
probably taken by souvenir hunters, it's hard to resist those lozenge =
strips
;-)).
Um abraco=20
Pedro
------------------------------
End of WWI Digest 1036
**********************