quote:Originally posted by Steen: Steen wrote:Make your own choices, folks, but quit bashing each other and spreading FUD.

Damn... I was hoping everyone would notice that line. *sigh*

I pretty much said the same thing, without the FUD remark, but it also went unnoticed.

I am a bit disappointed by the gross mischaracterizations that have been bandied about. *sigh*

--------------------There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...Posts: 9334 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001
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posted January 24, 2007 12:29
Hi All__________________________Again, just a small sub-note. Some of the do gooders around the state thought that the deer were starving and some were. So the dogooders took hay, alphaha and other grains out to feed the deer. Seems that in the winter deer can not digest hay or grains so they were finding deer with full stomachs malnurised and dying, When the deer were presented the natural food of the season they would not eat it because they were full of junk food, hay, and corn. It seems that their digestive system changes from season to season

posted January 24, 2007 13:21
And around here, we have deer overpopulation, and hunting with permits is even permitted on the outskirts of cooperating residential property.

--------------------There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...Posts: 9334 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001
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I'm sorry you lost respect for me, due to a typo no less. Really, that's a little harsh don't you think? Also I'm of a philosophy where I feel the same about myself no matter what others opinion of me are. To explain further, my self esteem isn't dependant on others, it's dependant on how I feel about myself. That philosophy is what mental health professionals advocate, btw fyi.

I do live up to my reputation.

The typo wasn't what set off the loss of respect, I was merely using it as an aside. I lost respect for you because:

- You are promoting a nutritional plan that's been scientifically proven to lack essential vitamins, calcium, and animal protein as a "healthier and more enlightened" way of living.- By promoting this, you imply that I am somehow less "enlightened" by eating animal products. (Did you take into account that my allergy to soy might also prevent me from being as "enlightened" as you are, as well as personal choice?)

The lack of respect for the animals killed while processing the grain, soy, and vegetables that now comprise your diet is far more horrifying to me than slaughter for food. You're not "leaving animals alone," you're remaining ignorant of their deaths because it's more convenient for you to do so. (While it is intended as a humorous rant, the Maddox post does bring up a good point, in my favorite method: peppered with personal insults and profanity. ) Maddox also leaves out the fact that vegetable farming also introduces pesticides to the environment, wiping out necessary species of various invertebrates. (While bugs might not be as cute as cows, they're just as important to the ecosystem.)

If it was feasible, I would do all this on my own: head for the woods, grab a prey animal by the throat, and make it for dinner myself. Unfortunately, working a 9-to-5 in a big city far from the woods gets in the way of my being Rambo, but it would make for the smallest environmental footprint...lots smaller than mass farming. (Also, it would be totally metal. )

(Also note that, due to my own set of ethics, I only eat free-range meat, free of growth hormones, and due to allergies, I can only eat organically grown vegetables and fruit. Is this still less "enlightened" than ignoring my dietary needs and allergies?)

As for the DSS, it is not promoting "fascism," it's promoting children's health and proper nutrition. If you fail to properly feed a cat or a dog, animal control comes to take them away from you. I don't see why it should be any different for children.

Go ahead and do your own thing, but don't think for a second that you're any better, more moral, healthier, or more "enlightened" than those of us who follow our biological drives and eat what we're genetically predisposed to eating.
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posted January 24, 2007 15:22
I could never be a vegetarian, let alone a vegan for the same reasons as Stereo, I just love food to much. The only vegetarian meals that I have enjoyed and felt satisfied by, have been Indian ones. On the other hand I do eat a lot less meat than I used to, and try to ensure that the meat I buy is not factory farmed. It is also interesting to speculate what much of the countryside might look like if it were not grazed.

The other thing that niggles me is when you invite people for a meal, and then find out that one of them is a vegetarian or vegan, as I like the whole symbolic intimacy about sharing food with friends, indeed if someone is eating different food they actually place themselves apart from the rest. In those circumstances I usually prefer to make a meal that everyone can eat, even if I feel the majority would prefer something else, but I don't feel particularly happy about it.

I'm an omnivore by preference. The meat I have the most access to is that of the student meal service here; very low grade stuff. So I try to supplement my diet with apples and banannas from the supermarket, if only to keep me from getting hungry enough to order a greaseburger.

However, that doesn't stop me from loving meat. I'm a huge beef fan, and I hunt regularly. In fact, my dad still has some of the pheasant we harvested back in October... maybe I'll make something out of them when I go back home this weekend.

I've always preferred eating meat that I have harvested myself. The whole process (stalking, shooting (rifle or bow), gutting, butchering, etc) gets me a whole lot 'closer' to my food. Weird thinking, I know, but it makes you realize what all goes in to feeding somebody.

I have no moral qualms about eating mammalian food (unless it's a dolphin or a human or something of a similar intelligence level), and I especially don't mind eating beef. Coming from a state where people are outnumbered 3-to-1 by cattle, I can tell you that cows are über-stupid. They're not cute; they don't have personalities. They're just mangy-looking and delicious.

One thing I've always wanted to do (along with setting up a homestead that used solar, wind, hydro, and bio-fuelcells) is to try and survive on food I'd only procurred myself: vegetables I'd grown, or meat that I'd harvested. Besides which, farm-fresh eggs are god's gift to man (real eggs are brown in appearance with an orangy yolk, and you can eat them raw without much fear of death. Compare that to the paltry pale supermarket eggs most people eat).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, to each h[is|er] own. Nitrozac is going vegan for her own unfathonable reasons, but they make sense to her, and they don't hurt any humans, so no harm no foul. On the opposite extreme we have Demos with blood still dripping down her chin from biting out the throat of a whitetail, but she's still not hurting any people, so the same concept applies.

--------------------"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. PirsigPosts: 948 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted January 24, 2007 16:09
When I have dinner with people it's usually the company I remember, not the food, and, unless someone calls me out on it and tries to humiliate me over what is and isn't on my plate, I'm not going to feel exiled because the main dish just isn't for me. I can put together a perfectly satisfactory meal out of side dishes. But every now and then, someone who doesn't know me very well decides to get offended and defensive over the choices I make, and I get the whole tiresome round that we've seen on this thread already. And I find that really annoying, because the comments really aren't as clever as the omnivores think they are, I'm not vegetarian over any philosophical reasons, and I'm not trying to evangelize. I'm just trying to eat.

I've met some people who only eat meat they caught and killed. So they eat vegetarian a lot, because hunting isn't as easy as you might think it is. I have a lot of respect for that approach. There're a lot of issues with the food supply in industrialized countries. It's up to individuals if and how they make their stand, and you can always get self-righteous, shake your finger and tell someone they aren't doing enough, but not enough is better than nothing. And there's limits to what people can do. To grow your own food, you need a yard, and you need to be in a place where growing stuff is feasible ie, if you live in the desert, you might not be able to afford the water a vegetable garden requires; if you live in the PacNW, water is no problem but adequate sunlight certainly is. To buy organic food only, you need a bidget that will accomodate that. To hunt or grow your own meat, you need land where you can do so. And so on. So make your choices, take whatever stand you will, and stop sniping at others because they can't or won't do as you do.

--------------------And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?- The DecemberistsPosts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Xanthine: To grow your own food, you need a yard

But not a big one.

Here at Casa del Druid we have a small veggie patch in a corner of the back yard, probably about 4 square metres. It's amazing how much food such a small plot of land can produce, not enough to feed the family, but enough to have something fresh from the garden with almost every evening meal, and the difference in quality is fantastic. Shop-bought veggies just can't compete with an ear of corn or a tomato that was on the plant 15 minutes ago.

Even apartment dwellers can grow herbs and tomatoes in pots if they're on the right side of the building.

--------------------If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.Posts: 10681 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted January 24, 2007 17:42
as i quickly glanced over all your posts (i have exams so i can't stay on long) there are some misleading facts.

First about the male calves being shot on site right after being born and put on the manure pile is mostly false. Yes there are some farmers who might go against the law and do that but i know that 99 % + of farmers don't. As for on my dads farm after a week the male calfes are sent to a neighbouring farm where they live happilly running around fields for 1 year +.

As for older cows being shot is also false. Again some farmers do this but as for the case on my dads farm usually healthy cows live for 7 + years which is standard age for a cow. again what about the unhealthy one's? now actually cows live longer on the farm then in the wild because we have medicine and other vetinary supplies on hand to try and save as many ill cows as possible.

As for the manure getting into the water along with dead animals is also false. You are most likely to drink racoon piss then cow manure. Yes again it has happend before where manure has gotten into the water but trust me 99 % of farmers make sure this doesn't happen and if it does it costs them thousands of dollars so that the water can be cleaned. Plus manure is benefical to the land as well.

Next about the mad cow. yes there were actually two mad cows in canada but if you think about the ratio of harmfull cow diseases to humans vs. harmfull plant diseases to humans you will find that plants are more likely to kill you then cows. But the fact is that mad cow disease is in most cases quickly caught and stopped at the source and causes no harm to humans.

As for general cow lifestyle i will give you a little insight. In the morning the cows spend about an hour waiting and getting to be milked which is a quick and clean process. The rest of the day the cows spend eating a well balanced diet which has been customized to the specific season and vitamin, etc contents by a trained proffesional. They drink purified cold water which is available 24/7. They sleep in ergonomically correct sand boxes which provided the most clean enviroment for cows. And in the summer they spend their days eating/sleeping/ running around a large field of delicious grass.

As for the cleanlyness of the milk. First everything about the farm which the milk was produced in has to be grade A quality or it doesn't get accepted. The farm is only accesible to farm personal and business people - other farmers aren't allowed to come near the cows or other things to stop the spread of disease.

There is nothing bad about drinking or eating dairy products. and you will be glad to know that the dairy industry is very keen on animal welfare.
Posts: 1199 | From: Canada eh? | Registered: May 2006
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As long as you've given this thorough consideration, I'll give your choice the same respect you give mine; that is to say, as long as you don't give me the "Meat is Murder" speil, I won't give you my "Fruit is Abortion" shtick.

As for me, we read Margaret Atwood's The Edible Woman in high school. The protagonist swears off various meats, then eventually all meat, for various emotional reasons. Then, suddenly, she's struck by a mental image of rows of carrots slumbering peacefully in their earthy beds, then being brutally ripped out of the ground, herded into trucks, and carted away screaming in terror to be butchered alive at the packing plant. Really not the point of the novel, I'm very well aware, but it's an image which always leaves me cold and trembly inside and desperately needing to curl up with a warm steak... --From life, to death, to life, circle without end. These lives have ended that ours may be nourished and continue; for this we offer thanks and respect, and remember that one day this flesh, too, will become food.

posted January 24, 2007 18:55
Okay, I just went back through the posts and found this...

quote:Originally posted by Nitrozac: ... Friggin' farms and their friggin' cows shitting in the friggin' drinking water!!!! My personal and precious drinking water is being poisoned, so much so, we've had to boil the water for 2 minutes to kill the shit bacteria in it. Like, come on! It's a basic human need to have clean water and because of livestock, it's threatened!

Bull$4!t. (Er, wait, I meant...) If you're talking about Walkerton, that wasn't the friggin' cattle shitting in the friggin' drinking water, that was the friggin' drunkard water system operator getting friggin' likkered up on the friggin' job, then friggin' lying about the friggin' water analysis! I grew up, and still live, on a pasture farm (beef cattle, thank you very much!) which is bisected by a small river. Before the Guv'mint made us fence off the river to keep the cattle from getting fishpiss on their hooves, I would regularly see cattle walk into the water to drink or cool off, then climb up on the bank for the express purpose of taking a crap on dry land. The shit in the water is not from livestock, but from municipal sewage treatment plants dumping raw sewage (that's human shit) whenever a rainstorm fills up the lagoons. I don't have the supporting figures within reach, but if you want to make an issue of it I can probably find them again.

As for the problems the Lower Mainland had this past year, I understood that was mooseshit...

quote:Originally posted by Xanthine: I'm not vegetarian over any philosophical reasons, and I'm not trying to evangelize. I'm just trying to eat.

Bravo!

When I was living the vegetarianism lifestyle, it was a much too common thing to get crap from both sides. The hardcore "meat is bad" vegans and the "let's grab a steak, you are malnourished" omnivores. And neither one particularly appealed to me.

I quit because I didn't feel like eating meat. I started back when I felt like it.

posted January 24, 2007 19:17
Cow pooping thread jack:Mr. Dave: Where we lived previously, 2 years ago, we could see (from our front window) cattle going into the small lake that is the drinking water for the community. Yep, they would poop in there. And on the land too. The cows I know both here in B.C. and back in Ontario don't differentiate between land or water to poop on/in. They just go poo-poo when they have to.

So there the problem was farmers were being allowed to water their herds in that manner. We contacted the health authorities and they forced the farmer to move his cattle. Unfortunately for us that resulted in slashed tires and personal threats from the farmers. We had to move shortly afterwards. Posts: 8118 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends: I have no moral qualms about eating mammalian food (unless it's a dolphin or a human or something of a similar intelligence level), and I especially don't mind eating beef. Coming from a state where people are outnumbered 3-to-1 by cattle, I can tell you that cows are über-stupid. They're not cute; they don't have personalities. They're just mangy-looking and delicious.

Actually, I've found that cows can have quite a bit of personality. They aren't tremendously bright, but they aren't as stupid as sheep, either. You won't see it on large farms, where they don't have a lot of contact with people other than milking and feeding, but when they get used to people, they can be rather like a dog. I've known more than one that seemed to like playing tag.

quote:Originally posted by The Famous Druid:Even apartment dwellers can grow herbs and tomatoes in pots if they're on the right side of the building.

Only if you have a place to put said pots. Which I, a basement dweller, do not. Not that it would matter...I'm not on the right side of the stinkin' building. *grumble*

--------------------And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?- The DecemberistsPosts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001
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--------------------And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?- The DecemberistsPosts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted January 24, 2007 21:11
Lettuce rejoice that we have such a wide range of dietary choices..

--------------------If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.Posts: 10681 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted January 24, 2007 22:30
Stevenback7's account of his family's farm has softened my view of farmers, and I applaud his efforts and really appreciate their concern of drinking water and keeping it clean. Wouldn't it be great if all dairy farms treated their animals as well as his family does?

Xan: Good posts!

I was kinda hoping there would be more vegetarians and vegans posting... oh well.

Oh, and someone said something about it's all ok, as long as people aren't harmed... Ok, you better stop eating fish unless you catch it yourself or know who did, because I can tell you, living on the coast where folks work in the fishing industry, there's always a couple fishing men who accidentally fall over and drown, it does happen.

posted January 24, 2007 23:11
My opinions on this matter aside, whilst savoring some coffee, and reading up on last night's spiel, I read this in the Times tonight, and figure it ought to be of interest to a few of you:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/dining/24vega.html(See the "Related" box at top left for recipes.)

--------------------There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...Posts: 9334 | From: Westchester County, New York | Registered: May 2001
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posted January 25, 2007 00:27
I've actually gained weight as a vegetarian, but I'm a "Junk Food Vegetarian". Also in the past 12 of my 18+ years as a vegetarian I've sat at a computer and not gotten much physical activity, so it's more of me being lazy. Plus I love my carbs!
Posts: 1641 | From: Grand Rapids, MI | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nitrozac: Oh, and someone said something about it's all ok, as long as people aren't harmed... Ok, you better stop eating fish unless you catch it yourself or know who did, because I can tell you, living on the coast where folks work in the fishing industry, there's always a couple fishing men who accidentally fall over and drown, it does happen.

That was me. Firstly, I live in Montana, so I really don't get much fish unless I catch it myself (a rarity... I don't enjoy fishing very much). Secondly, those fishermen are payed for their efforts; nobody is forcing them to fish. It's an occupational choice, and they are justly compensated for it.

--------------------"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. PirsigPosts: 948 | Registered: Mar 2005
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