Hi friend, I searched for the means for conquering sensual desire and ill will, and found the following methods from "The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest" by Nyanaponika Thera (in addition to Satipatthana and Anapanassati, especially 4 establishments of mindfulness):1. Learning how to meditate on impure objects / metta;2. Devoting oneself to the meditation on the impure / metta;3. Guarding the sense doors; Avoid unwise attention to the things causing craving or aversion, and cultivate wise attention to the things subduing them.4. Moderation in eating (wholesome eating);5. Noble friendship;6. Suitable conversation (avoid talks that are “not leading to detachment, not to freedom from passion, not to cessation, not to tranquillity, not to higher knowledge, not to enlightenment, not to Nibbana”).

However, I feel these means are not really cutting the roots of the hindrances of greed and dejection. Probably it could work better if one can analyze the cause of each his clinging/aversion in addition to the general root cause of ignorance and delusion, for instance:

a. Clinging to money: the root cause is uncertainty about the future (for future security), which is the hindrance of worry/anxiety/insecurity. -- Try to penetrate that money is anicca (it is conditioned and beyond control) -- Try to penetrate that "all acquisitions are the root of dukkha"; money is "poisonous snake" and "prison". When we really see the harm in it, it'll become easier to give up. -- Remind oneself that money is not "MINE", is void, and there's no "I" to own it. -- Need to cultivate the faith in Karma law and “fate”?

b. Greed for gain (benefits, status) and reluctance to give: the root cause is selfishness –-Need to uproot the notion of “self” and cultivate the compassion and altruistic joy for others (metta/karunaa/muditaa/upekkhaa meditation); --Need to realize that neither “gain” nor “loss” is real, but are only delusions/papanca that the mind has created to fool itself; --No matter “gain” or “loss”, the actual net gain or net loss is zero anyway; --Need to realize that these conditioned things are all just Annica/Dukkha/Anatta and "double stupidity" (positive and negative stupidity), not worth grasping; --Need to consider them as the “bait” of Mara to get one attached to the samsara, and should contemplate the danger and escape from it: Contemplation of Danger: image the “burning aggregates” in the “burning mansion” – burned with passion/aversion/delusion and dukkha; “No fire like passion, no loss like anger”. Contemplation of Bless of escape: contemplate the release, peace and safety resulted from letting-go.

c. Clinging to physical sensual pleasures (beauty, nice music, pleasant aroma, delicious food and tactile sensation): the root cause is pleasant, comfortable feeling --Need to realize that all sensual pleasant feelings are only delusions of mind, like water bubble;need to realize that these conditioned things are all just Annica/Dukkha/Anatta, not worth grasping; --Need to consider them as the “bait” of Mara to get one attached to the samsara, and should contemplate the danger [all forms of sensual desire cause bodily and mental suffering] and escape from it. --Compared to the bliss of higher mind and Nibbana, such pleasures are not really interesting.

d. Clinging to mental (intellectual) pleasures (ideas, views): the root cause is for satisfaction of curiosity about things and mental thirst for knowledge/understanding of the unknown --Need to consider them as "the poisonous arrow" one was shoot with, and contemplate the danger of exploring the useless things about the "arrow" instead of getting cured of the wound. --The Buddha warned us: as long as our minds are not free from defilements, we should not trust our thoughts (which are all distorted delusions).

e. Ill will/hate: I once thought that I don't have ill will and hate; however, I realized that any irritation, resistance, dislike, opposition, dejection are kind of "diluted derivatives of hate"; their root cause -- uncomfortable or even painful feeling. --Need to realize ill will and hate are "poison" which destroy our own happiness and well being; contemplate the danger and escape from them. --Need to realize that all disagreeable feelings are only delusions of mind, like water bubble; --Need to cultivate the compassion for others (metta/karunaa/muditaa/upekkhaa meditation); realize that all unwholesome deeds are caused by ignorance which will bring the doers dukkha: what a pity for them!

I'm also using Anapanasati (combining the four frames of mindfulness in both Anapanasati and Satipatthana) to contemplate the "disenchanting, fading, quenching, and lettingo" of the attachment to the 5 aggregates and six sense objects.

Hope more friends can contribute some more wisdom and means on how to uproot the hindrances of sensual desire and illwill ...

With Metta,

Starter"A heart infiltrated by greed, anger and delusion is burning and painful day and night." "Grasp nothing. Resist nothing"So that the "fire" can be put out.

"And what is unyoking from sensuality? There is the case where a certain person discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from sensuality. When he discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from sensuality, then — with regard to sensual objects — he is not obsessed with sensual passion, sensual delight, sensual attraction, sensual infatuation, sensual thirst, sensual fever, sensual fascination, sensual craving. This is unyoking from sensuality." - AN 4.10

Vangisa: "I burn with sensual desire, my mind is enflamed (with passion). Out of pity please tell me the effective extinguishing of it."Ananda: "Your mind is enflamed because of distorted perception. Shun the aspect of beauty associated with passion. See constructions as other, as painful, not as self, (and thus) extinguish strong passion; do not burn again and again." - Thag 21

"Monks, any desire-passion with regard to craving for forms is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to craving for sounds... craving for aromas... craving for flavors... craving for tactile sensations... craving for ideas is a defilement of the mind." - SN 27.8

Last edited by starter on Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

"When the Buddha talks about sensuality, he doesn't say that you're attached to sights or sounds. The word kama, or sensuality, here doesn't mean beautiful or desirable sights, sounds, smells, tastes, or tactile sensations. It means the plans and intentions you have around these things. That's what we're really focused on. We're all attached to the ideas we have of the things we want, wanting them to be a certain way to give us pleasure. In other words, we're more attached to our dreams and plans about sensual pleasures than we are to the sensual pleasures themselves. . ... The desire is what we cling to. ...

The Buddha goes down a long list of all the pains and sufferings tied up with this pursuit of our dreams of sensuality. So as you look at the pursuit of sensuality in its entirety, you realize how much pain and suffering it involves. ...So the antidote here is to broaden your view, to see that your pursuit of pleasure in this way carries a lot of pain along with it. ... Every time your mind starts spinning a web of sensual desire, tell yourself: "If you're going to spin a web, spin the full web. Try to encompass the whole picture."

Or you can contemplate the body, in all its parts. ...

So when you think in these ways, you begin to realize that your sensual plans [dreams] and desires are really unrealistic [self-fooling], really misleading. They make you half blind so that they can take you down a path to suffering. Realizing this helps cut through the sensuality. You see how arbitrary all these dreams are, that you can't rely on them. That's what helps you let them go.

Or, When you find yourself addicted to a particular pleasure and yet you know it has its drawbacks, look to see when the felt need for that pleasure arises. What sort of dis-ease is there in the body, what sort of dis-ease is there in the mind, that incites you with a sudden urge to try to alleviate that sense of dis-ease in the same old way you've tried before? Exactly what are the triggers, what are the feelings? Watch them arise; watch them pass away. You'll begin to realize that the need you have, say, for a particular kind of food or particular kind of pleasure, a particular kind of object, a particular kind of relationship is not permanent. In other words, if you don't give in to that old impulse, the need is not going to stay there. It goes away. If it's a basic hunger, you may need to feed the body, but you don't necessarily have to feed it with something that's going to cause trouble later on.But so many of our other "needs" last for just a little while. If you have enough endurance to watch them from a different vantage point, you can watch them go away and you're done with them for the time being. A whispering voice in your mind might say that the impulse may be gone for now, but it's going to return, so why don't you just go ahead and give in now. But you don't have to be intimidated by that whispering voice. You can tell it, "We'll deal with its return when it returns. Right now I want to get over this one hurdle." If you get good at watching the need arise and pass away, you develop a greater sense of detachment from it." (Meditation4)

starter wrote:However, I feel these means are not really cutting the roots of the hindrances of greed and dejection. Probably it could work better if one can analyze the cause of each his clinging/aversion in addition to the general root cause of ignorance and delusion, for instance

Hi, you have lots of good ideas but I wonder if it is wise to aspire to cut the roots of the hindrances, for that ultimate eradication of them? Doesn't only the Ariyan do that? I think we have to accept that in all likelihood we are going to deal with greed and dejection for the rest of our lives, and as others said, be mindful of them and see that they don't lead us too far astray. But I guess there are people with the proper circumstances and developed understanding to have Ariyan aspirations and it is wrong for me to say discouraging things. So go for it!

I wonder if it is wise to aspire to cut the roots of the hindrances, for that ultimate eradication of them? Doesn't only the Ariyan do that? I think we have to accept that in all likelihood we are going to deal with greed and dejection for the rest of our lives

To aspire to it? How could that possibly be unwise? That's a wonderful aspiration.

I think I get your reasoning though, that we shouldn't compound our current suffering by longing for something that's in all likelihood pretty far away. But without some desire for change nobody would get anywhere. And I can see that you aren't saying that we should all take a defeatist attitude. I guess in the end it's up to the individual to decide what they think is a realistic goal, though I personally think it's more productive to aim high and try your best to get up there than to aim low in all probability and stay low.

Just to share with you that I've learned from the wisdom of Ajaan Chah (and eventually the Buddha) that to me the best way to uproot greed and hatred is to contemplate both the sense objects (No matter we like or dislike) and the body/mind as anicca/dukkha/anatta, tell ourselves that both the body and mind don't really belong to us, and ask ourselves -- "Do you really want to stay in the sufferings of samsara just to satisfy this body and mind?"

Your work in this area (hidrances,defilements) is all Right Effort. Go for it. But as you say, it is not removal of those particular fetters. That happens when a person reaches magga-phala- which requires the development of vipassana.

Thanks for the advice. I'd like to at least weaken the hindrances which can help samadhi. The deepened samadhi will help vipassana.

I'd like to add to my last post about Ajaan Chah's wisodm: no matter we like or dislike, feel happy or sad, we should contemplate the six sense objects and five aggregates in the same way -- anicca / dukkha / anatta, then they are of the same value to us.

Contemplating the five aggregates and/or the six sense bases as anicca, dukkha and anatta is an important step. It belongs to the realm of vipassana and perhaps more accurately yonisomanasikara as can be seen here:

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?" [yonisomanasikara]

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

As can be seen here Ven Sariputta does not confirm that this WILL lead to stream entry. The only place where a confirmation is seen (along with time frames to completion) is seen in a sutta describing the four foundations of mindfulness. So it makes sense that a person wishing the spiritual welfare of another would wish both methods to be followed. Following both methods is in line with what is mentioned as the steps to stream entry ( which I posted earlier). So I hope you will develop both - it maybe difficult to reach culmination of satipatthana development at home. You might want to consider going on a retreat like that of Mahasi sayadaw/Pa-Uk etc. I would be prepared to travel to Burma if that helps facilitate it, rather than being mislead by inexperience teachers.

Your kind and sincere advice has been most appreciated. I've been practicing four foundations of mindfulness, as well as the contemplation of five aggregates and six sense objects. If you don't mind, I can send the updated descriptions of my practice to your private mail, which is modified from the old version I sent you in December. I'm just a bit concerned that you probably have too many private mails in your mailbox to go over? I can imagine how busy you are to help so many dhamma friends online on a daily basis and to teach dhamma personally, with probably a full-time job and a family! Your kindness and generosity have moved me very much.

I appreciate your advice to visit Burma, but strangely the monk who started my practice advised otherwise. He spent many years in Burma (started his practice there), and has been practicing with many renowned and cave meditators worldwide for over 20 years. He advised me to visit Thailand, not Burma.

Well, I can understand different people have different experiences, and I'm open to different opinions. I've been reading "The Progress of Insight" which you kindly recommended many times. But because I'm very busy with my work this month and also am restraining reading, I've only read about half of it. I wonder if this system of practice is directly based upon the Buddha's original teachings (the suttas). It seems to me only one sutta MN 24 was referenced in "The Progress of Insight", which was taught by Ven. Sariputta:

... my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total liberation through not clinging. And it's for the sake of total liberation through not clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One.

However, I don't really see a direct link between the above teaching and the system (methodology) of training in "The Progress of Insight". Did the Buddha teach "magga-phala" and etc.? By the way, I'd appreciate some English explanation of some Pali terms you used if convenient.

The Rathavinita sutta is an essential guide to the development of insight. Ven Sariputta and Ven Kottita have this discussion about the various stages of 'purification' of the mind. However descriptions of these various pali terms are not found in the suttas.

This is where practical knowledge comes in. In my opinion Ven Mahasi Sayadaw's very practical descriptions are an invaluable guide in filling in the missing detail. This same process is outlined, in their own words, by other venerable monks and I see no reason to doubt this. Considering that Ven Ananda would have had a limited amount of time at the first council to summarize 45 years of teaching into a few days, he would have had to use summaries of each discussion the Buddha or his disciples had, leaving out the detail, perhaps because it was obvious or well known at the time. However it is clear that sermons must have been severely summarized and sometimes it is important to seek the help of a living master, to help ones practice.

"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I think the above sutta quote refers to three stages of developing insight into the aggregates. This first step is to learn about them and their characteristics; the next step is to investigate them using yonisomanasikara; and the final step is to use mindfulness/ satipatthana to take them apart completely.

If you look at the satipatthana 'refrain' it always mentions being aware of arising, being aware of passing away, being aware of both arising and passing away. This is simply being aware of the different places in the arising and passing away of phenomena where, when focusing on those specific spots, insight (initially into anicca) will arise. There is nothing more you need to do (or can do)- just keep your nose to the grinding wheel and the insight will take care of itself. Your energy must be relentless.. You must be there, before the phenomena arises, so that you may observe it.

As you may have noted, you will pass through stages of development with such names like 'revulsion' 'dispassion' etc. Be prepared! A strong samadhi will help you get through these stages- it also helps to remember the qualities of the Buddha and increase your sadda-faith when the going is difficult. It is also important to have faith in your teachers and that this is the right path. So your questions/doubts need to be clarified now, rather than when in these states. Whatever you do, do not stop- because the aim is to get beyond these states and reach the more peaceful states afterwards..and finally as you say..to reach 'total liberation through non-clinging'.

I am not answering personal emails as it, as you have correctly understood, is going to become impractical for me. However it is dhamma dana for both of us, to do this in the public forum, so many can benefit.

Frequently contemplate the uncertainty of life and the certainty of death, then the happiness and sadness really become not important. Such contemplation can also prevent us from grasping/rushing into the future.

Frequently contemplate anicca, seeing both the happiness and sadness are not lasting, neither are worthy of clinging; understand that craving for happiness and aversion to sadness will only bring us mental and bodily suffering.

Frequently contemplate anicca/dukkha/anatta of sense objects whenever they pinch our six senses, and drop them from mind with disenchantment and dispassion (no attraction nor aversion).

Please remember that even contemplating anicca, dukkha etc excessively can lead to sadness. It is important that this is an exercise in wisdom, and not an excessively emotional one. If you find yourself heading in that direction it is important to pull back and dwell on brahmavihara or buddhanussati etc which will give rise to joy. Using mindfulness to look into anicca has less of a risk of this happening as the faculties are more balanced.

feeding birds is a simple way of overcoming greed, ppeparing or buying and sharing a meal with someone is simple way of overcoming greed, donating to a monestary is a simple way of overcoming greed.

Dejection, for me, has often followed percieved failure of a specifik task or expectation and/or jealosy.

Remembering the law of kamma is a help for for shifting your focus on actions instead of results, if one beleives in kamma one realizes that one does not need to concern oneself with results, they take care of themselves by the causes. And the only thing to do is skillful actions now, even intention is an action. So for example I have reflected on a skillful, kind, generous action i have done in the past that had an apparent fruit, the wish to do a skillful,kind, genereous action again arose, this lightens the heart and there isnt much room for dejection in a light heart.

and jealosy is overcome by reflecting on a time where you had success big or small and the joy it caused, being mindful of that joy in you internally, you can by inference see that others feel the same thing(mindful of joy extarnally) and shift the focus from the object that causes their joy to the feeling of joy itself, which you also have known and can know, that is shared joy mudita

Please remember that even contemplating anicca, dukkha etc excessively can lead to sadness. It is important that this is an exercise in wisdom, and not an excessively emotional one. If you find yourself heading in that direction it is important to pull back and dwell on brahmavihara or buddhanussati etc which will give rise to joy. Using mindfulness to look into anicca has less of a risk of this happening as the faculties are more balanced.

With metta

Matheesha

Hi, thanks for the kind advice. Fortunately my contemplation doesn't lead to sadness, but to letting-go and peace. However, the things causing greed or aversion could come back to the mind, so only repeating the words of "anicca, dukkha and anatta" is not sufficient. We really need to analyze what has caused the disturbance and how to end it. It's not the rude words or actions of other people that are causing us aversion, but rather our identification with the feeling, perception, volition and consciousness of these things (as self) as well as our clinging to our dislike of them are causing us difficulty. Then the way to end such difficulty is not to avoid contact with such people, but to remove our identification with the mind and our dislikes of the rude fault-picking people. Metta,

…Whatever's compounded,wherever a state of becoming's obtained,all that has no one in charge:so says the Great Seer.Whoever discerns this,as taught by the Awakened One,would no more grasp hold of any state of becomingthan he would a hot iron ball.I have no 'I was,'no 'I will be.'Fabrications will simply go out of existence.What's to lament there in that?For one who sees, as it actually is,the pure arising of phenomena,the pure seriality of fabrications,there's no fear.When seeing the world with discernmentas on a par with grass & twigs,finding no 'mine-ness,'thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'he feels no sorrow.Dissatisfied with this carcass,I'm unconcerned with becoming.This body will break upand there will not be another.Do as you like with this carcass.From that I will feelneither hatred nor love.

Hi Starter,that was exactly the question I asked all my teachers 20 years ago in Europe. Letting go, not following greed and hatred or developing the opposites. But actually none of these teachers had overcome greed and hatred. So one of the teachers gave me a book by Than Acharn Maha Bua, straight from the heart, once I finished reading it, I knew If I wanted to get an answer I will have to see this Venerable Teacher.16 years ago I went to see him. He told me to contemplate asubha, e.g. the loathsomeness of the body, contemplate the 32 parts of the body, until the citta understands the true nature of the body. He further said, contemplation of the body leads you to sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami. Once you have reached anagami, the contemplation of the body is finished, then turn on to the contemplation of vedana sanna sankhara and vinnana until you reach arahantship. He further said, as a forest monk, there is no need to develop metta. Metta is an intrinsic attribute of the citta, that does not need to be developed, because it is there, we just fail to see it.When you do a lot of body contemplation, the kilesas are getting really angry and upset. That is a good sign, that your work of contemplation will bear fruits and undermine and destroy the kilesas of greed and hatred. You will have to find a way how to deal with anger and unpleasant feelings. One technique is sitting through pain, while one is investigating pain. This is just in short the path to anagami. Books to read as a start: Straight from the heart, then Things as they are. However the valuable teachings about contemplation of the body were given in 2510, e.g. 1967, but they have not been translated into English.Metta Martin