River, just curious if we win the appeal why the city would still put the priority hires in? That's the judges decision so why if the decision is overturned would the city still follow? I can see them doing that so that they could fill a class, but they are processing the OC guys at the same time so there would be no problem filling the class, no?

I'm no law wiz so I'm just wondering if they explained the reasoning any further.

River, just curious if we win the appeal why the city would still put the priority hires in? That's the judges decision so why if the decision is overturned would the city still follow? I can see them doing that so that they could fill a class, but they are processing the OC guys at the same time so there would be no problem filling the class, no?

I'm no law wiz so I'm just wondering if they explained the reasoning any further.

That was the gist of the explanation. The city was told initially to expect a decision by fall 2012 which might be why they never asked for a stay on the judge's order. Obviously that hasn't happened and doesn't look like it will until closer to the summer 2013. From my understanding the city needs to give candidates a certain amount of time to train for the CPAT (around 3 months?) and by the time summer rolls around they simply wont have prepped enough OC list guys to fill in for the PH's if the case is overturned.

All that being said the second circuit court is very closed doors about everything and that was just what the lawyers thought was likely.

On a positive note they seemed to think one of the reasons the 2nd circuit court has taken so long is because they are overturning some if not all of Garaufis' rulings or at least getting ready to send it back to a lower court for a real trail with a new judge. If that's the case then it makes sense that they'd need way more time to hammer out the logistics of what gets turned over and how.

So River in your opinion, what number on the OC list will they reach for the academy this summer?

Wish I had a clue. There are just so many factors seeing as how there are three pools of applicants they'll be drawing from.

Who knows how many EMS promos will be available this time around? They traditionally have a better hiring ratio (about 1:2) than the OC list.

How many of the PHs are gonna make it to the rock? I think they have a smaller chance of passing all the hurdles than the OC guys do but seem more likely to take the job if offered.

And the OC list is usually 1:3 or 1:4 at the top of the list.

The city always seems to overshoot on the number of people they sent packets to for both NYPD and FDNY to cover their bases but if you are one of the lucky ones who got one just assume you'll be called and bust your @$$ everyday. Worst case scenario you have to wait another 5 months but at least you'll look great on the beach all summer.

Okay so I was actually thinking about this when I was at the gym. This is the numbers I was guessing and by no means ANYONE take this as anything more then me GUESSING.

So I just started with a base number of 100 EMS guys going into the summer class. Leaving 220 spots.
I assumed since we are at the top of the list the ratio will be higher than the 1:4 predicted for this test. Gave it a simple 1:3. I was trying to figure out what number on the OC list they may get up to.

NOW...here is where it get tricky. The PH variable. There are 490 who passed the exam. There are a few obvious factors that will determine there ratio. A) The amount of people just looking for a payout. B) The amount of people that can't pass the medical(Ill explain this) C) The amount of people that just simply dont want the job like others who take the exam and then decide against it.

Okay so the reason I think it will be harder for PH to pass the medical is becuase of the stair machine everyone has to do for 5 minutes. The way you determine heart rate max or in this case 90% HR max is 220-age x .9 ... Now for someone who is 40 this number is 162. This is much harder, just because of age.

My generous guess is that 100 PH will take the job. Leaving 120 spots for OC guys. Getting to around 350-400 on the OC list

**And saying they sent out packets to the first 730 guys, Im also guessing this is a fair assessment

Okay so I was actually thinking about this when I was at the gym. This is the numbers I was guessing and by no means ANYONE take this as anything more then me GUESSING.

So I just started with a base number of 100 EMS guys going into the summer class. Leaving 220 spots.
I assumed since we are at the top of the list the ratio will be higher than the 1:4 predicted for this test. Gave it a simple 1:3. I was trying to figure out what number on the OC list they may get up to.

NOW...here is where it get tricky. The PH variable. There are 490 who passed the exam. There are a few obvious factors that will determine there ratio. A) The amount of people just looking for a payout. B) The amount of people that can't pass the medical(Ill explain this) C) The amount of people that just simply dont want the job like others who take the exam and then decide against it.

Okay so the reason I think it will be harder for PH to pass the medical is becuase of the stair machine everyone has to do for 5 minutes. The way you determine heart rate max or in this case 90% HR max is 220-age x .9 ... Now for someone who is 40 this number is 162. This is much harder, just because of age.

My generous guess is that 100 PH will take the job. Leaving 120 spots for OC guys. Getting to around 350-400 on the OC list

**And saying they sent out packets to the first 730 guys, Im also guessing this is a fair assessment

Great analysis, but keep in mind that all of use are giving a substantial amount of time to prepare ourselves physically. A lot of guys are putting a lot of focus on age and health, but you have to remember the CPAT is easy. All it takes is two month max to get in shape for the CPAT for someone who is not considered physically fit. I see the potential of becoming a firefighter is motivating you in the gym. You are not the only one. I went above in beyond this morning in the gym while thinking about this who process. Just keep preparing yourself physically and when your time comes for the CPAT and the academy, it would be easy. keep up the good work.

Also, the PH doesn't have options of either getting the payout or the job. It is both. So, if the lawsuit falls in our favor, I am sure most are going to except the pay out and more than likely except the job offer also.

Will the instructors even know whos a PH from whos not? I dont think that knowledge goes past those involved in the applicant process division. It certainly shouldnt go past the instructors at least although i doubt theyll even know. I mean, i dont think any of the houses are gonna recieve memos saying "Youre getting 6 probies (2 of which were priority hires shhhh..)".

I dont think theyre that screwed up. But i could be wrong. That would be kinda funny tho lol.

Most likely those who get in as PH's wont hear anything from anybody at the house for the rest of their career unless they open their mouths. The issue itself will most definetely continue to be talked about but i wouldnt worry about any personal attacks of retaliation from any of the brothers themselves, the instructors or the department for that matter.

Of course they going to know,.... The probies would know too .... That probie going to look old with white hair duhhh

Also, the PH doesn't have options of either getting the payout or the job. It is both. So, if the lawsuit falls in our favor, I am sure most are going to except the pay out and more than likely except the job offer also.

Sorry to say but the PH will have seniority also. In other words, the PH will come in at max salary. But, we still have to wait 2-3 years before we can take any promotional test (lieutenant).

I'm telling you right now that regardless of the theoretical seniority that you will be rewarded, you have to earn the job in the academy and in the firehouse as a probie, like everyone else. I imagine if you do what's asked of you then you will be accepted just like anyone else, but don't think just because you got back pay and backdated seniority that the academy staff is just going to hand you the job. They expect 100% from you, 100% of the time.

thanks, so from my non Fire Fighter understanding, it is just seniority pay and nothing else.

What is considered nothing else. Give me some examples. One thing I am sure of, we will come in with time. Example, if someone took the test in 99 and their hiring date; give or take would have been no later than 2002-2003. That means they will have at least 11 years on the job if you add the years from 2003-2013. Yeah, that is crazy!!

I'm telling you right now that regardless of the theoretical seniority that you will be rewarded, you have to earn the job in the academy and in the firehouse as a probie, like everyone else. I imagine if you do what's asked of you then you will be accepted just like anyone else, but don't think just because you got back pay and backdated seniority that the academy staff is just going to hand you the job. They expect 100% from you, 100% of the time.

I agree and I expect nothing less from the FDNY. And if hired, I intend to give my all and represent the FDNY with respect and dignity.

Great analysis, but keep in mind that all of use are giving a substantial amount of time to prepare ourselves physically. A lot of guys are putting a lot of focus on age and health, but you have to remember the CPAT is easy. All it takes is two month max to get in shape for the CPAT for someone who is not considered physically fit. I see the potential of becoming a firefighter is motivating you in the gym. You are not the only one. I went above in beyond this morning in the gym while thinking about this who process. Just keep preparing yourself physically and when your time comes for the CPAT and the academy, it would be easy. keep up the good work.

Also, the PH doesn't have options of either getting the payout or the job. It is both. So, if the lawsuit falls in our favor, I am sure most are going to except the pay out and more than likely except the job offer also.

Oh i most of mistyped. I didnt mean to say there was an option of one or the other. I just meant I can see many just taking the settlement and moving on. Because realistically only 1 in 3 take the job on OC list so there is no reason to think this will be any different(or a much higher ratio)

And plz almostthere dont take my analysis as any sort of attack on you. I have kept my mouth shut threw all of the posts i have seen regarding the PHs. How i feel about the whole situation is neither here nor there.

My BS is in physical education and I have an extensive background in kinesiology. So what i was trying to say is that honestly the 90% HR max test on the stair mill will not favor someone of a higher age(note this test is on the medical not the CPAT). Not that he/she wont be able to. Just the way HR max is determined there is a large +/- that is not taken into consideration.

I agree and I expect nothing less from the FDNY. And if hired, I intend to give my all and represent the FDNY with respect and dignity.

Then best of luck to you. I actually agree with some points that the Vulcans have, however I disagree with their charge of intentional racism on the part of the department/city. I also disagree with the priority hiring, but I am not a federal judge, so my opinion on the matter is somewhat irrelevant. While I disagree with the ruling, I don't fault people like you for taking advantage of an opportunity presented to you, I think anyone else would do the same. If it's really what you want I hope you put the work in when the time comes.

Oh i most of mistyped. I didnt mean to say there was an option of one or the other. I just meant I can see many just taking the settlement and moving on. Because realistically only 1 in 3 take the job on OC list so there is no reason to think this will be any different(or a much higher ratio)

And plz almostthere dont take my analysis as any sort of attack on you. I have kept my mouth shut threw all of the posts i have seen regarding the PHs. How i feel about the whole situation is neither here nor there.

My BS is in physical education and I have an extensive background in kinesiology. So what i was trying to say is that honestly the 90% HR max test on the stair mill will not favor someone of a higher age(note this test is on the medical not the CPAT). Not that he/she wont be able to. Just the way HR max is determined there is a large +/- that is not taken into consideration.

I didn't take your analysis as an attack, I actually thought it was a great breakdown. And by no means, express yourself in regards to the PH/lawsuit situation. Nothing wrong with venting and expressing your opinion.