Sunday, November 20th:

12:00pm: Liberty Square -"We, Spanish-speaking immigrant women of New York City, call on all women to join us ... to stand up, speak out, assemble and make our diverse voices heard with dignity and strength as we demonstrate in solidarity with the Occupy movement for democracy, dignity and equality for all people." Details Here

Bloomberg is not one of my favorite people and Newt Gingrich just said the 99% need to get a job but take a bath first. Newt old boy ever hear the expression ride them out of town on a rail or tarred and feathered Mr. unlobbyist.

Read below but no anti-Semities --Rudy, Murdoch, Christine Quinn not Jewish. I am.
Posted below comment on NY Post under newest post by NY Post eager to run OWS out of town and into oblivion which shows how threatened they are by OWS.
http://youtu.be/xkGvTLJloMk NY Post editors Murdoch will do anything to make sure you do not see two protests OWS joined us to demand a hospital and health care -- this is in front of St. Vincent’s. http://youtu.be/IJoHO65Zwc0 Here are empty chairs outside St. Vincent’s with empty chairs politicians who have failed us and also Bill Rubin and his PR titian and Murdoch’s and everyone else rumored to even by NYPD’s Howard Rubenstein accused of controlling media and politicans --- does he? Let us ask Rupert Murdoch what he thinks? Rupe’s pretty godo at that himself -- look how he paints OWS blacking out health care marches and protests as just one example. http://youtu.be/IJoHO65Zwc0

bloomies mom would turn over in her grave if she saw the way he acted against ows, she came here so he, bloomie, could enjoy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness not money...I'm also a descendent of the Hebrews.

After the UC Davis campus's very effective Martin Luther King style silent protest against it's chancellor's decision to call in the riot police and tear gas students, I suggest that the protest in front of Bloomberg's home be an organization of MASS SILENCE to shame him for his abuse of the police force. Everyone expects OWS to be loud and confrontational and the media will use that against the movement. Complete silence would be much more effective than loud drums circles, etc. that will upset neighbors and draw more criticism than support. Imagine the silent solidarity of a mass of people to show that we are obedient citizens in contrast to the violent tactics used by the police force. If you have not seen this video it is very powerful.

Beautiful!
Just a thought...
What if this movemt made a goal of making sure that 99.9% of all supporters are legally registered to Vote and That 100% of them WILL Vote...
In so doing the change we seek will be achieved!

Though I believe that people should be encouraged to vote, we should also acknowledge that voting is not going to change much. For one, the electoral college prevents the majority from having a say. Second, most people are likely to vote for someone in the two-party system. Third, a pluralistic form of voting is better than what we currently have. And fourth, it takes a lot of money to run campaigns, so campaign finance reform is a must. And then you're back to the power of for-profit corporations using their resources to draw negative attention to campaign finance reform laws. They have already tried to weaken such laws. And what do we do when such corporations strive to do so? Yeah, we need to get in front and argue that, again, we will not be blackmailed.

Not sure of the precise statistics, but I believe we have progressed to this mess in large part because people did not vote. IE: the stolen election of 2000. The Bank Heist of 2008 aside, there is no doubt that there would not have been 2 prolonged wars and an upside down tax code had Al Gore taken office.

99%'ers have been listening to 1%'ers for years. It's about time the 1% listened to the 99%. If drums is what it takes to get their attention, I say "Bang Those Drums!" They have annoyed us long enough...An afternoon of drumming should be my worst problem! Stay Strong & Keep Going OWS!

My only problem with this: Bloomberg doesn't live there. He only "entertains" sometimes - when he meets with his favorite lobbyists, henchmen - we did once a "Let them eat Cake" OWS event timed to such an event. Otherwise, your drums will only be heard by the neighborhood. His Billionairness is tucked away safe and sound elsewhere. So, if this is purely symbolic, you may reconsider the drums.

Forget a drum circle, protest in a way indicative of the outrage towards Bloomberg's plutocratic, oligarchic tendencies. Drive home the fact that he is willing to squelch the voices of the people in order to protect the Wall Street crew that helped make him one of the wealthiest men in the country.

I don't believe in using violence, but this certainly isn't a time for love-ins and art shows. If you're going to recognize Bloomberg as the champion of the elites that he is, make it clear that he is not a friend of the 99%.

The Drum circle puts the spotlight on Bloomberg and the peacefulness of this movement! A better use of outrage is to channel the energy into empowering the movement rather than venting it. The vent dissipates power.

Each city has it's own disturbance laws. What I heard was that being noisy after 10PM is considered disturbance in that area. In the footage that I saw the Drum Circle agreed to stop drumming per police order @ 9PM, but more likely remained in the area until 10PM. It was a nuisance to the surrounding neighbors. I agree with you on that. But the event itself was nonetheless peaceful.

I realize that I was overstating... but I was only making a point. Our freedom to protest should end when it becomes an intrusion on others to freely conduct their daily life.... especially in a case such as this.

Well if they live in the neighborhood of billionaires and millionairs they need to be disturbed by the consequences of their self serving policies that have driven millions of Americans into poverty and destitution.

I see. That's a bit presumptuous of you to assume that all of Mr. Bloomberg's neighbors obtained their wealth by nefarious means. Not all wealthy people are corporate bankers or Wall St barons. Believe it or not many rich have gotten their money by hard work. I might point out to you Michael Moore. He came from a middle class background and now is worth millions. He did it honestly, and hurt no one in the process.

Do you feel the same way about the very wealthy celebrities that have shown up at OWS for their photo ops? I'm sure they live in a *"neighborhood of billionaires and millionaires".

It would be better to protest the Congress men and women who have made fortunes on the stock market, because the laws that govern you and I regarding insider trading are not applicable to them. (Nancy Pelosi, John Boehner and I'm sure there are others)

I agree that there are wealthy people who are individuals of integrity and principles. However it is the major stock holders of these Wall Street barons on whose behalf many corporate policies and decisions are made.
It is not the small stock holder it is the stock holder who own thousands of shares. We do need to call attention to the legislators and reveal those to whom they have indentured themselves. It is not an either or proposition. But you are correct in pointing to the presumption in my remark. Details do matter.

Thanks for the response..... so many times people refuse to see that we can not vilify all of the wealthy.....

And I notice as typo in my post it should have read "insider trading are NOT applicable to them" (I changed it) The fact the very people that passed the laws that we are subject to managed to leave themselves out of the scope of who that law covers, makes me absolutely crazy. I am encouraging all my friends and relatives to really take a look at who will be on the ballot in 2012, and if those incumbents have not lived up to what we want to see changed then vote them out...

I totally agree with you that the legislators legislate favorable rules and regulations that enrich them. There are too few legislators like Bernie Sanders. These individuals are few and far between. In my experience Legislative corruption is directly encouraged by our campaign finance laws. Our campaign finance laws grant the loudest political voice and thus influence to the largest donors. In my view, until we as a people demand and hold a National referendum to separate speech from money it will matter little who our legislators are. We need a Constitutional Amendment that restricts all campaign financing to public financing for every level of government. Every office in government, appointed or elected must be limited to 2 terms including SCOTUS. No more career politicians. By law every elected or appointed official is to be prohibited for life to lobby any level of our government. Also government regulators cannot be employed by the industries that they regulate. Each State needs to create independent citizen panels that are responsible for redistricting. We cannot leave this in the hands of political parties. At least such laws would afford the voters the exercise of their power in and thru government.

Love wins, my dear brother I can feel your frustration. Tough we have seen what violence breeds, it always seems to look like the only way to resolve difficult situations. the truth is, the who sustains us all has said we should love even our enemy why not try that for, say, ten or fifteen years? We can always start another war or something. in love your friend bill

i lived in miami when the cubans 'invaded' and changed the am society. I said then they should stand up for their rights in Cuba, which they did not, they yelled and screamed in the streets of miami. I say now we usa should stand up for our rights here, support ows

I was at this protest and came away disappointed. First of all Bloomberg illegally blocked both sidewalks -- the one he lived on and the one accross the street.

There was some drumming on 5th Avenue, but at around 9 pm a squad of cops pulled up with flasing lights and paddy wagon vans and some fat cop got on a bullhorn and said the noise had to stop NOW. The protesters folded right away! No argument. When I started to question the police, several protestors including a ringleader named Freddie started badgering me to leave the police alone. Wtf? I ended up in a screaming match with this Freddie over his trying to shut down my First Amendment rights while the cops in full riot gear watched. It is one thing to want a protest to be non violent, but must we be so passive that we follow authoritarian authority without question?

You cared enough to fight for what you believed in. Bravo. The group that initiated the drum circle was taking responsibility to the people who initiated and ran this circle. Freddie and his group clearly decided against confrontation with police. That is their right as well. Sounds like you expected him to back you up and do what you deemed to be right. There will be disagreement. No reason to give up. Find the people in OWS who share your perspective and build consensus from there. Domination is what OWS is against.

I expected Freddie to do a little bit of protesting. He did not protest at all. As soon as there was something to protest about, he folded. He ran around the protestors shutting them down -- stamping out Freedom of Speech. It wasn't enough that he folded. It was very important to him that every protester fold as well.

I did not expect him to back me up. Until that moment I did not even know who he was. What I did not expect him to do was to become Bloomberg's mouthpiece.

I understand your dismay! This is the messy and contradictory nature of all new movements. It starts with people coming together and then the messy and disruptive process of bonding and binding together of a shared vision and commitment to a shared process begins. This is why few movements reach the state of unification with loyalty to the common cause. They are few and far between. This phase of OWS does require a lot of patience and understanding so the the coming together process can be kept active for the binding and bonding of diverse persuasions to take place. From there the opportunity for unification and consolidation of goals can proceed. With patience this can be an amazing process.

I will read more about this topic. I know so little. And I have not been at very many protests although I have been to Zuccotti Park numerous times. The Bloomberg protest was my first. I was excited to participate and glad it was practically in my neighborhood -- about 20 block away. I was dismayed when I arrived to learn that Bloomberg had created a "frozen zone" -- a no protest zone on the entire block where his residence was located. No pedestrian was allowed through. Not only did this prevent the protesters from getting anywhere near his residence, but it prevented the foot traffice that would bring people past the area that Bloomberg designated for Freedom of Speech.

So on top of that to see this guy Freddie running around and doing Bloomberg's dirty work really set me off. We had to stop drumming at 9 pm, allegedly because some children could not sleeep. Freddie ran around spouting this garbage. This is the most chic neighborhood in NYC. It overlooks 5th Avenue -- a very busy street and Central Park. These wealthy people have sound proof residences with triple glass windows. Childrens bedrooms do NOT over look the park. Yet Freddie was running around all worried about waking up some pretend billionaires child!!! Shut down the revolution. Billionaire children can't sleep!

I do see your perspective on this and agree that this could have been handled differently. It seems that Freddie took the helm and acted in accord with his persuasion. As well intentioned as he may have been, I do see your perspective on this. I'm familiar with many of the individuals who dismembered the former Soviet Union. A dangerous and life threatening undertaking. The disagreements between the various factions and people were at times explosive and destructive. They succeeded only because they persevered in rebuilding and fortifying the bridges that allowed them to unite in spite of their virile disagreement. With OWS , my position is to persevere and not allow the disagreement with others to dictate my commitment or course of action.

[UPDATE / 12:47 p.m.] @Newyorkist tweets, "Police massing, on 5th Ave at 79th Street, near Bloomberg's mansion" and posts the following photo. Will there be more cops than drummers? And who will be the first NYPD officer to play the cowbell?

112011bloomy.jpg
(@Newyorkist)

[UPDATE / 2:13 p.m.] The drumming has commenced! Just not on Mayor Bloomberg's block: the NYPD has apparently shut down 79th street to pedestrian traffic.

112011drummers2.jpg
@Newyorkist

According to @Newyorkist there's a "bottleneck" of drummers and protesters on the Northeast corner of 79th Street and Madison.

112011drummers.jpg
Drummers on the northeast corner of 79th and Madison (@Newyorkist)

OWS is becoming more about how to grab another spot in the media instead of actually…changing…things. A number of people on these forums (and one of the OWS website's own blog posts!) cite very specific legislation that should be enacted/reinstated as a first step. Figuring out how to make headway in Washington is not as glam as getting photos on the front page…but it will positively change things.

Beginning in early July of 2002, thousands of Nigerian women from various communities in the Niger Delta held peaceful protests against U.S.-owned Chevron-Texaco to demand for jobs for their sons, schools, scholarships, hospitals, water, electricity and protection of the environment. The women seized Chevron-Texaco’s terminals, airstrip, docks and stores, disrupting production of about 450,000 barrels of crude oil for each day the protests went on. "Oil site takeovers are common in Nigeria, the world’s sixth-largest exporter of oil, but the peaceful protest is a departure for the oil-rich Niger Delta region, where armed men routinely resort to kidnapping and sabotage to press their demands with multi-nationals."1

According to a State Department report on Nigeria, in mid-2001 oil production was averaging 22 million barrels a day. Unfortunately, the Nigerian government invests most of the revenues that come from oil in foreign exchange and not in local communities. The United States is Nigeria’s largest customer for crude oil, accounting for 40 percent of the country’s total oil exports. Nigeria is the U.S.’s fifth-largest supplier of crude oil, accounting for 10 percent of the oil imported into the United States. The United States has invested $7 billion in Nigeria, mostly in the energy sector, and Exxon-Mobil and Chevron-Texaco are the two largest U.S. corporations involved in offshore oil and gas production in Nigeria.2 The export of oil brings in approximately $20 billion to the Nigerian government annually. Despite all the wealth from oil, the Nigerian government, along with multinational corporations operating in the area, has not done anything to improve conditions in the communities surrounding the Niger Delta. The people of the Niger Delta region are not benefiting from the oil wealth and they remain poorer than the national average.

This was the first time women had protested against Chevron-Texaco. One group of protesting women furthered their stance against the oil company by threatening to take off their clothes if their demands for a better life were not met. In Nigeria, nudity of women in public is a traditional sign of shaming men. If the women stripped naked then their families would have to live in shame for what the women had done. The women wanted the officials to visit their communities to witness for themselves the dire conditions they were living in. They demanded investments to raise their standard of living. Most communities don’t have access to water or electricity. The environmental pollution is also damaging crops and wildlife. The Niger Delta is one of the world’s largest wetlands, and the largest in Africa. Oil spills are not an uncommon occurrence in the region, which cause severe damage to fish farming and agricultural activities.

As the women chanted, "Enough is enough," Chevron officials opted for talks with the women. According to Esther Tolar, spokeswomen for one of the groups of protesters, Chevron-Texaco agreed to create jobs for people from nearby villages, upgrade contract workers to full-time positions and create new contract positions. The company also agreed to set up a $160,000 micro-credit program to help village women start their own businesses. Tolar also said that Chevron-Texaco would provide schools, hospitals, water and electricity systems for the nearby villages.

Both sides celebrated after the deal was signed in late July. Tolar said, "History has been made. Our culture is a patriarchal society. For women to come out like this and achieve what we have is out of the ordinary."3 These women have inspired other women around the region to take a stand against oil companies and demand that they take corporate responsibility. One of the protest leaders, Anunu Uwawah, stated something we should all keep in mind when buying gas for our cars, or any other product. She said, " I give one piece of advice to all women in all countries: they shouldn’t let any company cheat them."4

Congress, Wall Street, Police Force are all house Negroes of the 1%
MALCOLM X:”THE HOUSE NEGRO AND THE FIELD NEGRO”:SPEECH TO SNCC WORKERS,SELMA, ALABAMA,FEB.4,1965
To understand this, you have to go back to what [the] young brother here referred to as the house Negro and the field Negro — back during slavery. There was two kinds of slaves. There was the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes – they lived in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good ’cause they ate his food — what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but still they lived near the master; and they loved their master more than the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master’s house quicker than the master would. The house Negro, if the master said, “We got a good house here,” the house Negro would say, “Yeah, we got a good house here.” Whenever the master said “we,” he said “we.” That’s how you can tell a house Negro.

Went to his mansion earlier today after this was posted. There was one police officer outside his door busy texting. A police booth about 70 feet away and one squad car along fifth avenue. This situation needs to be attacked from all sides regardless of consensus. Drum circle makes noise and noise disturbs people. If Bloomberg does not like the noise then he needs to meet with us to decide when we can occupy and camp at Zuccotti again. We need to follow Bloomberg wherever he goes and make some noise and then work on getting him evicted from office through a recall.

I was at this protest and came away disappointed. First of all Bloomberg illegally blocked both sidewalks -- the one he lived on and the one accross the street.

There was some drumming on 5th Avenue, but at around 9 pm a squad of cops pulled up with flasing lights and paddy wagon vans and some fat cop got on a bullhorn and said the noise had to stop NOW. The protesters folded right away! No argument. When I started to question the police, several protestors including a ringleader named Freddie started badgering me to leave the police alone. Wtf? I ended up in a screaming match with this Freddie over his trying to shut down my First Amendment rights while the cops in full riot gear watched. It is one thing to want a protest to be non violent, but must we be so passive that we follow authoritarian authority without question?

If you do not like the noise then complain to Bloomberg. If you and others complain to Bloomberg then we will have accomplished what we want to do. The OWS image is whatever you want it to be. It is people like you nopercenter that allow things to go bad for everyone because you are selfish and could care less what we are trying to do as a whole for the United States. Get off your butt nopercenter and join the forces because one day it will be too late and you will be left with nothing. Do you not understand how the entire country is falling apart due to the greedy criminals in finance? Do you not understand how politicians shield these criminals from facing charges?

That is the problem with OWS, it has no "image"of it's own, in spite of it's name. Perhaps, if you want to make an impact and some real changes, you might try actually doing something other than what you are doing now. Because their are a lot of people out there are looking at you a whole lot differently than they did even 4 weeks ago.

Spreading all over the world...... yes it is, nothing wrong with that at all. But it would be nice to see something other than what OWS considers a direct action, which seems to be marching with signs.

All of you non OWS participants are making suggestions of what OWS should do. So our image of you is lazy and complacent and have no pending issues that you believe will affect you later on. Is that correct? Is that the right image of you? I know of several people that invested with Madoff and warned them that the returns were too high and they need to research to make sure their $ were guaranteed. But it was not an issue for them until it became an issue. People need to get involved with issues and not get politicians involved at all. Politicians only answer to corporate lobbyists. Direct action on issues is the only way to save the USA. Sinead if you have a dog that needs medical attention and you believe that the vets bills are high then you should join OWS and learn why vets have to charge so much and by discussing with others what to do with high vet bills you can take direct action to lower the costs. OWS involves everything not just criminal bankers.

Lazy and complacent? No...just because I do not agree with OWS methods doesn't make me complacent...As far as your little anecdote about your friends....well that is greed and stupidity.. because let's face it.. if it seems too good to be true it usually isn't what you should be doing.

And I truly don't understand how leaving politicians out of the equation will result in getting anything changed at all. They are after all the ones that hold all the cards.

You all talk about direct actions, I just don't see you doing any "direct action" on anything,. Unless you call marching and carrying signs (and I don't mean to sound flip) a direct action. It may draw attention to an issue but it certainly isn't going to make a direct change happen. Just as the politicians that have offered words of support for OWS are doing nothing to change any of your concerns. I think they are very happy you are not focusing on them, that way they can go on with business as usual.

This country is facing a real possibility of financial collapse, Washington is doing nothing but fighting with each over it, and we are doing nothing but marching in circles.....

Opening dialogues over things is great.... but OWS was begun over a single issue, corruption on Wall St and the effects it has had on our ability to earn a living.... not over vet bills or any other issue we may have.
"OWS" involves everything....." All I can say to you is good luck with that.....

I have many times.... I think OWS should go en mass to DC.... I think they need to get into the faces, so to speak, of Congress and the President. And I do not understand their reluctance to focus on our Congress.... I simply don't see how protesting Wall St, or the banks etc... is going to achieve the things we all know need to be changed. I really think coordinating the encampments across the country would also help in moving things forward.....

Perhaps you can explain why OWS doesn't do these things... without the philosophical nonsense. It is not enough to tell someone we are raising awareness if the right people are not listening.

Sinead you make good points about the financial collapse. However congress is protecting the criminals causing the collapse. Almost every one of the 435 members of congress need to be recalled and/or exposed in a scandal that will lead to their resignations.

I understand what you are saying, however,one of the things that politicians are afraid of is losing their job..... Love them or hate them look what happened when the tea party put their focus on Congress.. It changed the face of Congress.

We have a stalemate going on in Congress now all because of Political Ideology, and that could be very damaging to this country, I believe if OWS had taken this movement in force to DC a month ago that the "Super Pac" would have come up with a plan.

This is an election year, what better time to hold Congress's feet to the fire? And with the kind of commitment that OWS has they are just the ones to start the ball rolling, that I believe would bring a lot of people to their aid.....

Right, Sinead. And those of us who have alternative points of view on how a "revolution" can happen are castigated because we don't want to sleep in a park or shout at rich people. I've been told by various OWS supporters that grassroots movements won't work for this cause, there's no use going to Washington because politicians are all corrupt, and that OWS is not here to make policy, it's here to "raise awareness." I'm ready to just give up on this whole thing -- it's futile to participate in OWS unless you fit into some predetermined OWS mold, apparently.When are we pragmatic optimists and agents of peaceful innovative change going to break off and form our own counter-movement? :)

If all of the people on here are honestly looking for a list of demands, a more organized, formal, group then why hasn't anyone started one?

No one says that you guys have to participate in OWS in the current way that its running. That's the beauty of this leaderless group. You can start your own organized faction with leaders and a list of demands/policy changes and what-not.

Go do it! Stop sitting behind a keyboard and complaining and actually do what you want! Make the change that you want to see!

Your time would be better spent on Sunday finalizing a list of tangible, specific demands and action plans that you can take to Washington, DC. Unless the goal of the Occupy movement is to perfect its street theater.

No it would not. The Obama strategy did not work in 2008, it won't work now. If it had there would not be an occupy movement here or anywhere else in the world. The problem is structural; the system is not distracted, it is built to not care about us.

So you're advocating literally going into corporate offices and political offices, dragging out the leadership, and replacing it with…what? I, as many people here who desire substantive change in our system, still wonder "what does OWS hope to see happen?" No OWS supporter can provide for us a vision of what the post-OWS nation will look like. Why is this so difficult? What is YOUR vision, bankrun?

Why does anyone owe you an answer. The system is working against the country and 99% of it's people. There is no one statement solution or resolution. You appear to be stuck in hierarchical thinking where resolution or creation moves from top down. What gives me faith in the OWS movement is that it is not not a pyramid scheme.

The chasm that stands between what is and what is to be is in many ways abysmal (i.e. like an abyss). The function of social orders in human history has been and continues to be to contain chaos thru limiting the exercise of power and authority. The systems so far have been one form or another of hierarchic systems. Representative democratic systems were supposed to be the counter to systems of hierarchy. Communist ideology attempted to take this one step further from the plutocracies that were taking shape in the the representative democracies. Communism 's answer was to decentralize and spread power and authority. It worked on paper but not in application. Communism failed because it too turned into a system of domination and wealth extortion including the implementation of an oppressive police state to enforce unquestioning compliance.

From this I conclude that any ideology is open to the implementation of exploitation and extortion by a small powerful elite. Both counter systems originated within an intellectual, moneyed and political elite and then was applied to the society at large. History is demonstrating the end result of the top down enforcement of a system upon the majority constituency of a society. It results in domination and exploitation! This is the current state in the Russia and China. For a new sociopolitical system to work for all, its creation and implementation must be born of the majority. Thus the majority of members within our current system must be able to come up with answers, proposals and system of implementation to create a system born of the synergy of the many rather than ideas from the few. This is a messy process as well as an unprecedented process. Yet with todays communications technologies and social networking sites we may have an optimal opportunity for this to succeed.

Why so defensive? Of course no one owes me an answer but with all the OWS talk about how there's no "action plan" yet because we're still all figuring it out…well, how better to figure things out than talking to fellow citizens and seeing what they're thinking? That's what I was told would happen at Zuccotti -- go and "talk to people." Well, I'm not able to get to the Park on a regular basis (and now it's decamped) so I'm here. What are these forums for anyhow? Arguing with each other or collaborating with each other on what a vision/your vision/our vision is? No?

Meesa- I think we can both agree that our political and economic systems are slated towards those who already benefit from them, and that they do not represent the needs of oppressed groups and minorities.

I also agree that if we are to dismantle our political and economic systems, we will need to think of what to do next. I believe our representative democracy is not actually representative, so I think it should be replaced with direct democracy--something that our movement relies on for decision-making.

This is a tenuous system for a number of reasons: Majority votes are difficult to come by, and we do not want to create underrepresented minorities; direct democracy works better on a smaller scale, so how do we implement it for a country like America?; how do we ensure participation, and how can we make decisions that will not overshadow those who do not show up to GA's?

But I think that this more anarchic form of government allows for greater freedom and greater possibility for access to politics than does our current system. As it stands, if your politics are more radical than democratic party-politics, there is no chance that your views will be represented by ANY representative.

In short, I understand why this is frustrating and difficult. I'm also sure that there are plenty of people in the movement that disagree with my political views (some people want to effect change from within the system). My approach is more anarchistic, but it isn't exactly utopian. I acknowledge that we will never live in a "perfect" society, and that we will probably never live in an absolutely egalitarian society. I do think, however, that we can change the way people think and behave by changing the way the state functions, and by having conversations like these. Hopefully this will bring us somewhere!

I agree that we do need to do more on education, bringing alternative theories to the population. There is no action plan, because it is not up to OWS to define an action plan. There are a number of organizations that have been in the process of doing that. This is about encouraging business and political leaders to allow us room to make the changes we desire and without being strangled by the power of corporate interests. Many of us have different desires and are part of different organizations ourselves, but what most of us share in common is that whatever we do, the corporate interests are going to try to interfere. It is time we stop allowing corporations to blackmail us, such as by threatening to increase prices, every time we try to support something that can better the population. Not only do corporations blackmail us, but they use the mainstream media to convince some of the more gullible sectors of the population into their way of thinking. It's simply time we rise up and tell them that we are not going to take it. There are some in the 99% that will not be blackmailed. And that is most of what OWS comprises.

I was responding to your statement: "No OWS supporter can provide for us a vision of what the post-OWS nation will look like. Why is this so difficult? What is YOUR vision, bankrun?"

The vision is in the making! The mission statement of OWS is quite clear: "This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society. The only solution is world revolution"

The key with OWS is that the focus is on empowering grassroots movements all over the world so that the 99% will draft what they see a Just social, economic and political system that ends the exploitation of the needs of the majority of the global population: a living wage and a Just social and political system that serves the needs of everyone. Today America is turning into a feudal state where the many work for the enrichment of the 1%. This is happening globally. Today the 1% MOVE ABOUT GLOBALLY EXPLOITING THE PEOPLE OF ONE COUNTRY AFTER ANOTHER. Thus the change must be global.

Your assumption that bankrun2011 is advocating dragging leaders and legislators out of their offices and replacing them with new leadership is baseless. The system is what needs to be changed then the people will chose the appropriate leaders and legislators for their new system of governance..

What a brilliant suggestion! This certainly would bring into the spotlight the sheer mass of people in the US living on the brink of poverty. There is immense power in such a exposure. I would not be concerned about doing the research on long or short term results. A more empowered focus is what do we want the results to be!

I agree. What you said sounds more like a mission statement and not necessarily an action plan. I think when people refer to an action plan, they are referring to something along the lines of what political parties or specific organizations tend to do, creating a large draft of points they are addressing and expect their supporters to advocate that. I don't see the OWS really doing that, nor do I think it would be in our best interest to do that.

You clarified the point lucidly. I totally agree that it would work against the movement and repeat the patterns of the past. The open and fluid state of OWS actions is that they allow for spontaneity and imagination to lead, rather than an action agenda list. This in my view creates the space for spontaneous cooperation rather than reinforcing the old system of obedience/submission.

Hi Messa, Thanks for contributing to this exploration. It is about engaging with our communities to discuss these very important issues. Here is what I wrote to DemocratButNotIdiot:.

"Allow me to share my understanding with you. The chasm that stands between what is and what is to be is in many ways abysmal (i.e. like an abyss). The function of social orders in human history has been and continues to be to contain chaos thru limiting the exercise of power and authority. The systems so far have been one form or another of hierarchic systems. Representative democratic systems were supposed to be the counter to systems of hierarchy. Communist ideology attempted to take this one step further from the plutocracies that were taking shape in the the representative democracies. Communism 's answer was to decentralize and spread power and authority. It worked on paper but not in application. Communism failed because it too turned into a system of domination and wealth extortion including the implementation of an oppressive police state to enforce unquestioning compliance.

From this I conclude that any ideology is open to the implementation of exploitation and extortion by a small powerful elite. Both counter systems originated within an intellectual, moneyed and political elite and then were applied to the society at large. History is demonstrating the end result of the top down enforcement of a system upon the majority constituency of a society. It results in domination and exploitation! This is the current state in the Russia and China.

For a new sociopolitical system to work for all, its creation and implementation must be born of the majority. Thus the majority of members within our current system must be able to come up with answers, proposals and system of implementation to create a system born of the synergy of the many rather than ideas from the few. This is a messy process and without historic precedent. Yet with todays communications technologies and social networking sites we may have an optimal opportunity for this to succeed.

Replacing the leadership with people who are more sensitive to the needs of the 99%. It's not that they have to agree with us, but they ought to show some level of decency on our part. I'm also kind of amazed at how many people are continuously asking us, "What do we want to see happen?" I have to ask, what are the resources you are reading on getting current events? #OWS is not necessarily about any specific plan, with many of us assuming our supporters have read alternative sources of information, preferably those that are not supported with corporate profits. There are a wide range of alternative economic organizations out there that are doing something. #OWS is not necessarily trying to do the things such organizations are doing. We are trying to bring the notion to the people that our leaders, both political and in business, are advocating against the 99%. And that when you advocate against the 99%, there are consequences for doing so, consequences the government fails to acknowledge and hopes that we will just sit back and take it.

I do take that thought seriously! :) I strive to recycle, re-use, reduce. Instead of getting new furniture and household items, I do a great job scavenging from the street and family/friends' hand-me-downs. Much of my clothing is from the thrift stores. So many people just discard things when they are out of style, no longer the latest model, or have a small chip or crack in them when they are perfectly usable. My approach limits landfill contents. I don't own a car (I don't have a license!) preferring to use my feet, bicycle and/or public transportation. I've been a "card carrying vegetarian" since the age of 12. I buy produce, grains and legumes largely from the greenmarkets. I opt for local shops instead of Boxes. I'm just trying to engage in some conversation here about others think because…if we all build our own private Idahos, well, we still need to live next to each other, right? Are you saying we should all just "do whatever we want?" :)

Great. Then you are already doing something. Why do we need to tell you what we expect you to do? It's one thing to live in a big mansion and scrounge the resources that others need and depend upon. It's another thing to live freely without scrounging the resources others need. If you have found a way to do that, great. Some, if not many, of us are probably doing what you are advocating. And you are advocating something. People should be allowed to do whatever they want, so long as it does not interfere with the resources others need and depend upon. Like, if you change the oil on your car and let it flow onto the ground, you are interfering with the water system that others depend upon, interfering with it by allowing yourself to pollute it. The 1% interferes with so many things the 99% depend upon, for the most part. It's time we refuse to sit back and put up with it.

Considering how well they've been run and with what consequences these last few years, i think we could turn over the executive leadership of the banks and financial firms to the people who made up the drum circle in liberty sq and do better than the CEO's and their yes men have done.

I agree with you Meesa, OWS needs to articulate its goals better. I'm giving them about 6 months to publish a list of goals before I give up on them. They are just beginning and I chalk up their lack of published goals to beginners disorganization.

NLD, what are you referring to? I spend way too much time at THIS site and in the working groups, reading meeting minutes -- went to Zuccotti twice. I get some info from the media (they are not all louts), and I get some of it here.

OK. I'm new to this, too. I haven't really seen that list before, probably since I am not even near New York these days. I have never been under the impression that we need a list of goals, since our primary purpose was to unite the 99% against the 1%. My personal idea on this is that we ought to educate the population on different economic theories and strategies, which can range from cooperative models to social democratic models. I do agree that we can't throw out the leadership without any viable plan that will work on behalf of at least most. With enough education, and using those resources that are already here for us, we can begin by building up and showing others that alternatives can work. But we do need to address the 1% while doing that, alerting them to the fact that their form of economic blackmail is not going to work. As far as what kind of changes or economy, if any, is going to result from this? Only time can tell that.

This sounds similar to the cacerolazo protests often seen in South America, in which people protest by banging pots and pans. In 2001, it toppled the current government and caused nearly five presidents to fall in succession. I doubt we need to go to as much of an extreme as they did down there, but, yes, Bloomberg, in his way of handling the situation, deserves to be taken down this road.

When people list their demands they legitimize what in their eyes is an illegitimate government - a corporate run government by granting authority to those who are perpetrating the Injustice they are standing up against. The corporations want this more than anything else. As said by bankrun2011: "The problem is structural; the system is not distracted, it is built to not care about us".

oy, scott walker. there's a true visionary leader for the free world.
he actually has almost no distinguishing political value at all except, for his supporters, that he is opposed by a vigorous regulator, someone who believes even rich people and rich companies should contribute to society.
radical, that.

http://youtu.be/v7JJU-CjhXo I have a flu like cold and I am standing near 120 West 12th Street Rudin “hospital” luxury condos sales office. If anyone can stand near the entrance, middle of the block or on the corner 6th 12th street....anywhere and protest....Rudin Profits People Die -- we need a hospital. Thank you.

This is why we need OWS - see video crony capitalism - 80% of 20 billion dollars worth of federal loans for green companies went to big financial backers and supporters of Obama - this cannot be accepted anymore,

If this is a leaderless movement who has access and makes decisions on how this growing fund is managed and dispensed?

Now that the movement has everyone's attention with street theater, who, what & where will this go to effectively change the way business is conducted on Wall Street, Main Street and K Street?
And in closing....
Those in power and corrupted by it are obviously amused by your folly with their low level employees AKA police and security forces and obviously unaffected by it all as they expend your valuable energy and credibility in the eyes of those of us who agree with a lot of the huge laundry list of concerns and support the concept of responsible uncorrupted representation. Please wrap collective heads around these simple questions, publish the responses and keep us better informed so that the working and supportive balance of the 99% can justifiably believe that your stand is going to be a significant and lasting turning point in history!
Thanks

I wish this movement will STOP counting on Facebook for involvement & support! Over a year ago for some f-n reason Facebook decided I needed to provide extra info; info I either forgot or whatever! So basically, I haven't been allowed access to my own Facebook page BUT for almost two years & according to my children my FB still f-n exists! SO as far as I'm concern they can GO F-THEMSELVES & I will never sign up FOR FB again &I've GROWN tired & RESENT that to be part of any resistance, movement or cause that I must have a F-N FB page!

Laws were created by the corporate to benefit the corporate. COOPS apt are homes to family, however, free mortgate apt can be taken away by the COOP board just if owner own a few dollars without even being foreclosure. They just evicted them. Housing court not even bankrutcy court protected them. Real Estates advertize APT for sale not SHARES for sale. THIS IN UNAMERICAN

What exactly are "elders from the civil rights movement"? The last time an 'elder from the civil rights movement' tried to address an occupy crowd (John Lewis in Atlanta) he was shouted down and sent packing.

the drum circle uptown is a bad idea. i support the movement. But it is hard to stand in "Solidarity" when events like this are decided without general consensus. Where is the fucking GA??? Our message is not about drum circles and stupid hippies and pissing off rich folks for shits and giggles. We are doing Fox New's work for them. We want to grow the movement through attraction. This kindergarden behavior will only lose people in the movement. we must have discipline. once again, where is the GA????

So now we have gotten to the point where we get to decide who is worthy enough to openly support the OWS and we can decide how the express it? Even if I don't agree with these methods (which I do agree, we would all be better off with a drum circle or two...wish I was there) the fact that they/we are attracting enough attention to convince people to fight these issues for a second time in their life is something to commemorate. The movement is gaining breadth and depth, change is nearly impossible if we stay our course on this long enough to see what can come out of it.

Woodstock was 40 years ago. Get over it. A modern day hippiefest that is intended to piss off one guy who probably won't be there anyway is ineffective. Whether you agree with that or not is besides the point. Tactics such as these should be decided upon through consensus. If they are not then who is running the show? Was this not supposed to be an exercise in direct democracy? has it just become chaos? How can you have solidarity with a movement when there is no order at all? It reduces the message, which I'm still supporting by the way. All I am saying is that we need to have at least some focus and discipline. If we have lost that, then we need to reel it back in fast.

If people are not breaking laws we should show support for their right to choose how the support. They weren't worried whether they pissed off one guy. They were merely vocalizing their support. I am not looking for woodstock, but I am one of the 99%.....just like you.....and just like them.

Why does anyone need to be running the show? It didn't become chaos; it was born OUT OF chaos. It is in the process of forming. It is simply people coming together with many different opinions but united by one thing in common -- they are outraged by Wall Street and by the fact that government is in bed with Wall Street -- and they are going to keep speaking out in as MANY ways as they can think of. (I only wish they'd use English so the rest of us can understand them.)

Good that the protestors are getting some comic relief for themselves and maintaining a sense of humor about all this. You can't put yourself into tense situations and face-offs at every single event, it'll wear you down just as quickly.

It's fine that he creates wealth for himself, but he should (before he buys the mansion) pay his fair share of taxes. The 1% in this country make over 50% of the income. Yet, they pay only 45% of the income tax. Clearly they need to have another five percentage points added to their taxes owed just so they are paying the proportion as the middle class:

you don't know what he does for charity. you make assumptions. he is one of the most generous wealthy americans that has ever lived not to mention a tremendous mayor. amazing how OWS feels it is their right to count other people's money. he should pay more tax before he buys his home? who do you think you are?

I have no idea what he does for charity, but I know that most billionaires are not paying their fair share in taxes. By that I mean they are paying a smaller portion of their income than the middle class by far. So, we do need to raise their taxes -- not by adjust their tax rates, but by eliminating their hundreds of exclusions, deferments, deductions, and credits that apply only to the wealthy.

Well, there is one tax rate we need to raise. What they make in capital gains needs to be taxed like all other income. The idea that not taxing capital gains as much would create jobs is obvious bunk. We've been following the Bush Tax Cuts for ten years, and we haven't had a worse job situation in decades. If it created jobs, they were all created overseas. Leaving billionaires with lower taxes on their gains that many others pay on regular salaries does not cause them to invest that money in factories here. They still flee to cheap labor elsewhere.

I live and own an apartment in NYC. Do you have any idea how my taxes have risen over the past 5 years? Do you have any idea of the capital gains i have to pay on the sale of real estate and/or stocks? I paid my way through both undergrad and grad school. I work in finance where I am "on call" 7 days a week which puts a great deal of stress on my family. I am not asking for your pity I am just telling you the way it is. These are my choices and I live with them. I have 3 kids all going to college shortly, not to mention the cost of living in NYC again, where I choose to live. I don't complain but I am up at 4:30 am and home many nights past Midnight. I pay huge income tax, state tax, city tax, capital gains tax and real estate tax. Not enough for you? Not acceptable to OWS? I had college loans and paid them back with interest over years. The choice I made. This is the life I chose. No acceptable with you? Not acceptable to OWS? Is the country perfect? No has it ever been? No will it ever be? No. If someone told you life was fair they lied. Look in the mirror pal. You and all of your occupy wall street friends. That is where the problem is.

None of that changes the fact that we need to pay our way as we go and stop pushing mountains of debt forward onto the people of future decades. That is what happened over the past three decades, and now time to pay the piper has landed at our door. I was a college kid when I started writing that this day of paying the piper for our huge debt spending would come and would practically destroy us.

The answer is not keeping back taxes so we can push the mountain of debt just a little further forward one last time to our children. Your children will be graduating from college without much hope of a job thanks to the desperate situation years of deficit spending have created (personal, corporate, and government). The ONLY way out of this great recession caused by excessive debt everywhere is to to cut government expenses wherever we can without doing seriously greater harm to the economy and without taking away the social security that was PROMISED to people for their retirement years, which they made part of their retirement plans for years because of government promises and cannot now undo) and increase our taxes to the point where we maximize revenue. Even then, it will take YEARS to claw our way back out of it -- maybe a decade if we do the job well, but we can leave the world back in decent shape the way we found it when we arrived here.

We simply cannot keep pushing the mountain of debt ahead. The mountain, itself, will not give us that option.

I'm not so sure it is YOU that the occupy movement is after, as you seem to think. If you are in the top 20%, then you are definitely underpaying when it comes to taxes; BUT if you are in the top 20% then none of what you say about the difficulty of your situation is true. If you are in the top 20% and are finding thinks that difficult, it is simply because you are living beyond your means. IF, however, you are in the middle and are finding things that difficult, you are exactly in the group the OWS is supporting. You are, in that case, right that YOUR taxes are too high, and the reason they are too high is because the top 20% is paying a smaller portion of their income in income tax than you are. That's a fact:

just to be clear, I am not saying my situation is difficult. I feel blessed and while I pay lot's of taxes, i have also worked hard and earned what I have. I am saying that things are never easy and I chose the life I chose. I believe that applies to most people. Life is just not fair.

Great - after drumming non-stop for 2 months across from the financial titan known as Charley's Pizza and Cheesesteaks and a high school while class was in session - it seems you have actually picked a relevant target to irritate. This is growth!