I use two ladders because I hate etriers. Ladders I can walk up and down without looking or thinking about my feet. I can't do this in etriers. I had the same problem with russian aiders. I also haven't really found that much difference in comfort between standing in two versus one ladder, maybe because the spreader bar prevents pinching, probably because I instinctively cam or climb with my non-laddered foot on the wall.

Plus it's lighter ;P But seriously, I purposefully climb heavy, carry everything with me on the pitch, and like the freedom my heavy ass bag of tricks gives me. Since the 4 ladders hasn't given me any comfort advantages when I've played with them, I've pushed the use of that weight into bringing more of something else. But granted, I've never really used the rest step. I'll head back into the gym with 4 ladders and 2 ladders and a spare etrier to see if I can incorporate the rest step. I'm always up for new things.

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Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

This is a pretty interesting discussion. Cobbledik, some of your observations about climbing with two ladders are some of the most useful I have seen on the subject. It also reinforces my own opinion that it may actually be more technical to climb with two aiders instead of four. You can rest step with two aiders on vertical to slightly overhanging ground, but it gets worse as it gets steeper. I like climbing without clutter on easy routes, but I agree 100% with Mark H. about four aiders on hard aid. I am completely blown away by what Chris Mac and Ammon can do with just two aiders, especially hard hooking with just two aiders as seen on Wings of Steel. I find it pretty painful to be topstepped in just one ladder, especially if you are steep terrain where you must balance up against a fifi or daisy, further increasing the force on your feet. It's fine on a bolt ladder or something like that, but not if it's a hard copperhead placement or similar (In this case you would be standing in both aiders even if you only had two). The other thing about using 4 aiders is that when climbing a wall, you will be making the least possible amount of clips, which your hands will appreciate.

I was surprised that some of my faster times recently were using a floater. One reason might have been is that sometimes if you are using 4 aiders, you weight the first one and find that you have trapped the other aider under it. But using a floater also goes against my preference for making fewer clips. Of course you don't have to use a floater for every move.

As far as attachments go, I have a quick clip on the belay loop (ideal for first and third step) and a short fifi for second step (as Chris Mac describes).

More recently I have been experimenting with the Kong adjustable fifi, but usually only use it when it's really steep. Another experiement: for most of my second step clips, I'm tying one of my daisies around both waist belt and legloops with a sheet bend and have a keylock carabiner on the loop that is formed for these short clips. The other daisy is girth hitched around my belay loop.

I don't know about others here, but I'm pretty big on daisy testing when things are getting real.

I went out this morning and knocked thirty minutes off of my time climbing and cleaning my usual practice route. The more I use the regular fifi, the more I think it's time to seriously consider switching to Mark's adjustable fifi method or to adjustable daisies. It appears that most of my lost time right now comes from when I struggle to get the fifi hooked once I climb the ladder and then I just waste time resting because I expended too much energy fiddling with the hook. I'm going out tomorrow to observe one of the guys that made the FA of this route: http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=269.0 and he's going to climb the first pitch and have me clean so he can teach me a few tricks. I'm going to check out what he does and take his system into consideration too.

Also, I haven't made it to the second step on the ladders yet but I did get into the third step every time on the vertical sections. That's still improvement so I'll take it. Overhangs still are too hard for me to get higher than the 4th step but I have no reason to think that won't improve with practice.

Two Yates ladders is all I use and no daisies until it gets very steep or going over roofs...

When I do use a daisy I use the adjustable fifi.

Taylor your find that you're go through serveral iterations before you dial in your system. I'm always making slight changes from what other people are using. Sometimes I include their tricks sometimes I don't. Just depends on what works for me and my body length.

I got a chance to second on a route this past Sunday called Center Stage and All Alone. I had the opportunity to try ascending with a left and right ascender when I borrowed the leader's but I hadn't been able to practice it ahead of time so I quickly switched back to the ascender and gri gri because we were losing daylight. It was my first opportunity to clean pins and beaks, which was fun to learn. Now I see why pitons damage the rock: it's half the equipment and half the goofball waving the damn hammer around. My first beak took about 20 minutes to clean, including about 5 minutes attempting to pry with a crowbar we found (possibly a remnant of the construction of the train tunnel underneath the climb... there were lots of artifacts around.) The second beak took only a fraction of the time because I understood what to do. The knifeblades and lost arrows were simpler to understand their removal.

Seriously, aid climbing is fun! I love this stuff and it's fun to share the little lessons I learn. There's no substitute for experience!

I'd say it's 100% the hammer-wielding goofball. Pins of all sorts can work magically when hand placed in scars.

Next time on thin nailing I'm going to carry a small screw link or two for horiz Pecker and Tomahawk placements and for cleaning. I knotted tie-off would work, too. Good to be able to funk that blade in the exact opposite direction it went in, instead of relying on the placement being opened up by rocking it back and forth.

Beak-type pins do a lot to reduce impact. They almost always fit where a LA was driven, and can really hook like a MF with hand placement or a light hammer tap to set.

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Say no to limbers, excavators and retro-bolters. No matter how much he smiles.

I def agree that I've made faces when watching my cleaning partner of old get a little overly agressive when cleaning. I've done similar damage when heading without a punch.

I can list the routes that I know have been obviously scarred this way by a partnership I was part of and they haunt me constantly. Do everything you can to avoid the damage; if not for the sake of the rock, then at least for the sake of your own sense of well being and self respect.

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Sometimes the difference between a layman and a journeyman is simply what he is allowed to believe himself to be.

Just to be clear, I didn't really do anything with the crowbar other than attempt to fit it behind the bottom of the beak to make some sort of fulcrum. It didn't work so well. In the end what actually worked best was just wiggling it with my fingers over and over again. Lesson learned: sometimes a finer touch is all you need. Any damage done to the rock was purely accidental; usually off-center blows due to muscle fatigue or awkward angle.