My experience of FF and RPGs in general is that the only factor which determines success is investment of time in the game: more time spent playing = higher levels. The battles are formulaic (use strongest attacks until required to heal, occasionally use some kind of status changing/magic reflecting ability). And the only strategic element of the games is having to equip weapons and so on (equip the best stuff you can afford).

Wouldn't it be better if there was no 'leveling up'? Which RPG games would you recommend for someone who is disillusioned with the genre for the aforementioned reasons?

There aren't many/any traditional rpg's that use hand eye coordination or reflex. If you're willing to branch out from the traditional medium though, it is my understanding that Dark Souls is extremely challenging and would call on those requirements you have listed.

On the topic of Final Fantasy, while it is true that most enemies can be defeated through power leveling, that is not the way to beat them, but more of a last resort. The fact that so many of the FF's have fan challenges like using only 1 character, or beating the game as low a level as possible, it's proof that bosses CAN be beaten through other means than OP levels and equipment. Admittedly though it's so easy to level up it's hard not to go that route when any decision to make the game more difficult has to be enforced by you and not the game.

For difficult traditional rpg's, I would recommend nearly any game from the Shin Megami Tensei family. They almost universally release games that kick the players ass, where leveling is still important, but rather than letting you overpower the enemy it's more about letting you survive long enough to figure out how the hell to take the enemy down. Persona 4 is probably one of the easiest (Though still god damn hard) games in it, and a good entry point if you're interested. It also recently came out on the Vita, which means you could actually find it in stores rather painlessly.

Valkyrie Profile 1, which I believe is available on PSP these days, is also rather challenging if you're going for a good ending. The game has a set amount of periods to accomplish what you're after, which means there's very limited time to grind, and the combat style if very timing and reflex based, while still retaining a turn based rpg vibe.

For hand-eye coordination, there are games like Legend of Dragoon and Xenogears which have a skill system that requires you to hit combos. LoD has a timing system built into battles so you need to hit your buttons with precision in order to deal the most damage. FFVIII is similar to this in a less challenging way. Squall's Renzokuken requires timing and Zell's limit break requires combos and fast eyes and hands to get to your desired limit break. Xenogears has a different combo system that's very satisfying. You aren't given any real good combos at the beginning and you really have to just make up your own, but successfully mastering them can give you very strong attacks(I forget what they're called, but they're like limit breaks) that hit multiple times.

If you're into strategy and planning, you're probably better off playing tactical RPGs since that's what they're made for. Story and gameplay are all there, so it's worth a try. FF Tactics has been praised as a very good TRPG. A lot fans would even say it's easily one of the best.

As for power leveling. You can try FFVIII since the monsters level up with your characters. But you can grind in a whole different way in that game by drawing a bunch of strong magic and junctioning it to your character's stats.

Either way, depending on how you play the games, they're all pretty easy if you don't challenge yourself. I replayed FFVII not too long ago and found it to be EXTREMELY easy. I never once stopped to grind. But I already know where tons of great materia is. Bred a gold chocobo and the game was pretty much a breeze after that. Fighting the optional weapons when you aren't prepared is a completely different story.

I suggest NEVER using a walkthrough for any kind of information, no matter how lost you are when playing the original PSX FF games. They're amazing for getting lost and doing random sidequests before getting to the event you were supposed to reach.

No they require strategy, not skill. Strategy's something you can write down on paper and have someone reproduce in game. The complexity of the strat's usually dependant on the character's levels...High level strat - Auto attack until low health, use Curaga, back to Auto Attack.

For hand-eye coordination, there are games like Legend of Dragoon and Xenogears which have a skill system that requires you to hit combos. LoD has a timing system built into battles so you need to hit your buttons with precision in order to deal the most damage. FFVIII is similar to this in a less challenging way. Squall's Renzokuken requires timing and Zell's limit break requires combos and fast eyes and hands to get to your desired limit break. Xenogears has a different combo system that's very satisfying. You aren't given any real good combos at the beginning and you really have to just make up your own, but successfully mastering them can give you very strong attacks(I forget what they're called, but they're like limit breaks) that hit multiple times.

then you have the Mario RPGs where timing can help you deal more damage and take less damage. Eternal Sonata employs the same design principle, only instead of being a great help, it's bloody vital to get the timing down for the guard command.

that's usually what keeps these games challenging which makes you think

what if enemies' stats and shit scaled with your party's levels like in Oblivion, or there's a point where the enemies get heaps stronger like in Kingdom Hearts? more turn based JRPGs need to employ those kinds of things, especially level scaling, so that it minimizes grinding while it keeps it at least somewhat challenging. hell, I'd be for a levelling system that's more about teaching you new attacks or lets you power up a certain skill like in most WRPGs.

plus there are the Persona games that like to dick you over with tricky bosses but they're like a million hours long.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

I like a lot of the action focus on RPGs these days. i'm playing the Tales games (Xillia and Graces) lately and running around beating stuff up is a good change from more traditional turn based systems.

Some systems work in the interactive elements to turn based. As mentioned LOD, but also Shadow Hearts and the ring timing. Excellent system. Definitely requires good coordination.

Active Time systems like FF7+8+9 don't require coordination, but there's skill in the fact that you have to make your mind up quickly.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Well if it's an action RPG then its an RPG smarty pants. Get off my case, dude.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Well if it's an action RPG then its an RPG smarty pants. Get off my case, dude.

well you came in this thread saying he should play tomb raider and Alice when he specifically ask for info for final fantasy series. Who's the "smarty pants" now.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Well if it's an action RPG then its an RPG smarty pants. Get off my case, dude.

well you came in this thread saying he should play tomb raider and Alice when he specifically ask for info for final fantasy series. Who's the "smarty pants" now.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Well if it's an action RPG then its an RPG smarty pants. Get off my case, dude.

well you came in this thread saying he should play tomb raider and Alice when he specifically ask for info for final fantasy series. Who's the "smarty pants" now.

No he asked for someone to suggest new rpgs.

lol I *bleep*ed up... Shouldn't of stopped half way through his post, sorry.

Personally, I feel like the final fantasy battle system does get tedious sometimes, even though I love Final Fantasy.

I would recommend the new tomb raider. The one where she's on the island. The gameplay in this game is very exciting. You have to have good coordination and timing to beat this game.

Or Alice Madness Returns especially if you're into horror. This game is like a horror version of Alice in Wonderland. It's also the sequel to another great game, but it's a major improvement. It takes place in this crazy girls weird hallucination but it's eerily realistic.

but that's not what the OP was asking. I doubt the OP would be interested in those games since they are not RPGs.

Well I only found those games for myself on websites that listed them as RPG's. So I'm pretty sure they're considered RPG's. I can sortof see the second one being considered something else because you don't level up your character, but I know Tomb Raider is because it says so on the cover.

they are not traditional RPGs. They are more action based hence the term "action RPGs ". Final fantasy is a jrpg. Although FFXV will most likely change that.

Well if it's an action RPG then its an RPG smarty pants. Get off my case, dude.

well you came in this thread saying he should play tomb raider and Alice when he specifically ask for info for final fantasy series. Who's the "smarty pants" now.

No he asked for someone to suggest new rpgs.

lol I *bleep*ed up... Shouldn't of stopped half way through his post, sorry.

As for no levelling up RPGs, I don't think there is such a thing lol

No, you just shouldn't go around acting like you're a mod or something.