And Now For Something Completely Different (Warriors 96, Jazz 81)

The Warriors’ Friday night meltdown against Charlotte was a stark warning. If the Warriors want to be relevant, they need to outgrown their soft, sloppy, defenseless play. Sunday night against a Williams-less Jazz was a golden opportunity not only for redemption, but to show a different face then the one that got pummeled a few nights earlier. The team we saw in the first half looked far too familiar for comfort, squandering whatever lead they could build with careless, unfocused play. But the second half held two surprises. The first got the Warriors the lead, the second let them hold it.

Surprise number one — the Warriors found a way to open a double-digit second-half lead against Utah despite next-to-nothing offensively from Monta Ellis. Give tremendous credit to Raja Bell (and Jerry Sloan’s general gameplan) for smothering Ellis and depriving the Warriors of his usually reliable offense. But give equal credit to Ellis for not letting the Jazz’s plan of attack sink the Warriors’ chances. Ellis didn’t force the ball or demand shots. He became a willing passer, trusted his teammates and found other ways to contribute (defense, unfortunately, was not one of them — as Bell worked his way out of a shooting slump against Ellis’ loose coverage). With Ellis locked down, the rest of the Warriors finally broke loose. Biedrins scored 4 in the quarter, Lee 6, and Curry 9. They attacked the Jazz in the paint or close by it, rather than settling for threes and long jumpers. On defense, they seemed to turn the intensity up just a notch. Curry and Biedrins in particular, two of the Warriors’ usual defensive liabilities, worked earlier to establish position, slow down the Jazz’s attack and anticipate where they needed to be to challenge shots and penetration. It was by no means a flawless defensive performance, but the burst of energy at both ends turned the Warriors into the aggressor.

Surprise number two (the real shocker) — Keith Smart prioritized late-game defense. The Warriors expanded their lead in the early fourth quarter with Ellis on the bench thanks in part to Reggie Williams doing what he must do to be a contributor (hit shots). Then, with the lead up to 15 points and roughly 9 minutes to go, Keith Smart also pulled Curry. For a team with the stench of an epic collapse still hanging about them, sitting your three big-name players (Ellis, Curry, Lee) against a veteran Jazz team superficially seems like a recipe for disaster. But the line-up Smart put on the court for this crucial fourth quarter stretch — Law, Williams, DWright, Udoh, Amundson — featured his four best defenders. Smart had previously dipped his toe into closing games with better defenders by choosing Law over Curry for crunch time of at least one prior game. But he hadn’t yet tried anything like this. Trusted with the lead, the defenders did exactly what you’d hope for — they stopped the other team from scoring. When Dorell Wright checked out 6 minutes later, the Warriors’ 15-point lead was unchanged. The five players Smart empowered for the middle of the quarter didn’t have enough offensive oomph to get the team a lead, but they had the defensive skill and hustle to hold it. It was all the Warriors needed at that point for the win, but something they’ve lacked far too many times this season (including Friday).

I’m hesitant to put too much weight on the Warriors knocking off the the Jazz without Williams — he’s a huge part of their success and an infamous Warriors killer — but it’s uniformly encouraging that this Warriors team found a different way than their normal approach to win this game. Beyond the backhanded compliments above to Ellis (for not forcing his offense) and Smart (for prioritizing late-game defense), there were plenty of performances deserving of outright praise.

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Stephen Curry had a good night at both ends of the court. His 10-18 shooting — particularly when he started attacking the basket in the second half — was crucial in getting the Warriors the lead. At the other end, Earl Watson and CJ Miles aren’t Deron Williams, but they’re both capable players. Curry kept them from getting easy shots and finding any rhythm. It wasn’t a performance that’ll get Curry nominated to the All-Defensive first team, but it was an upgrade over the effort and intensity we’ve seen this past week.

Lou Amundson finally looked like the player the Warriors thought they were getting when they signed him this past summer. He was everywhere during his fourth quarter run, blocking shots, bodying opponents in the post, snagging offensive rebounds, and tipping in misses. His energy was infectious for the Warriors and just the boost they needed at the stage when opponents usually trim down the Warriors’ lead. They’ll need another game like this against the bruising Bucks on Thursday.

The Jazz bigs, since Boozer departed, are actually pretty decent match-ups for Andris Biedrins. Both Milsap and Jefferson like to work facing the basket. When they turn on Andris and make their move, Biedrins’ lateral quickness gives him a decent shot at stopping them. Together with the other Warriors’ big-men, Biedrins held the Jazz’s twin towers to 11-31 shooting. Many of those were jumpers because Milsap and Jefferson were unable to get to the rim. Two streaks of note for a quietly resurgent Andris: back-to-back double-doubles and three free throws in a row. Let’s hope both streaks continue.

Rounding out the contributions from Warriors’ big men is Ekpe Udoh. Two things impressed me about Udoh’s minutes, particularly in the second half. First, he brought an energy to the court that was largely missing with the rest of the squad (except for Amundson). His switches were quick and crisp on defense, and he worked hard every time down establish post position — and therefore tying up a defender — despite not getting many touches. Second, he finally hit the defensive glass. Although one board came in the final seconds of garbage time, the added effort on rebounding was clear and encouraging. When he’s paired with Amundson, who frequently goes for blocks, it’s even more important that he seal off his man and deny teams second chance opportunities.

Reggie Williams won’t go 6-6 every night, but it was very encouraging to see him playing the microwave role he needs to assume on the team’s offensively challenged bench. As the team demonstrated in the fourth quarter, it can get away with playing more defenders when Williams is connecting with his shot. Instead of going with Radmanovic at 4 for an extra bit of offensive help, Smart can instead go with Udoh or Amundson. A bench full of role-players can work, if those guys actually play their roles. Far too many games this season, Williams was anything but the offensive force he’s expected to be.

Acie Law had the best 3 point, 1 assist game you’ll ever see. He worked hard defensively, initiated early offense, attacked the Jazz’s interior defense to get to the line and generally kept the team steady even when Curry and Ellis went to the bench. For the Warriors’ star guards to get the rest they need, Smart needs to feel like he can have both off the court at least for limited stretches. More aggressive, relatively mistake-free performances like this one should earn Law more opportunities — likely to the benefit of all involved in the rotation.

This victory over the Jazz isn’t the high-point that the early season home win was, but it’s still important. The Bobcats game on Friday should have been marked on a win on the Warriors’ calendar. This game should have been marked as a loss. They let the first game slip away, but with some bad injury luck for the Jazz and a relatively focused second-half performance, the Warriors found a way to steal a win.

Adam Lauridsen

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thanks for doing the homework for us readers, however there your logic is not sound:

1) Of all the combinations on the list, only two PGs are HOF material, Francis and Snow. So for you to think Curry and Ellis are in the Cousy, Thomas, West mold, well I won’t even give you credit by even going there. Plus Snow played next to Iverson who at that time in his career was in his prime, ounce for ounce best small bball player in the world.

2) Why don’t you do the rest of your homework and list for the readers who the front court players were on these teams. Perhaps also take it a step further and list the top reserves. I’m positive the current warrior frontcourt and bench will pale in comparison.

3) at the core of the argument is the issue/question if Curry is even a point guard. he is a pure shooter, who knew coming out of college the his future in the league to get drafted was to play point. As pure a shooter as he is, I do believe the switch to PG came at Davidson. Players like cousy, thomas, west, any great PG grows up with the mentally till it becomes innate. You see Curry sometimes and he is thinking too much or makes the wrong passes. Curry is a great scorer, I’m a fan, but is he a true PG? questions remain. On top of that inherent breakdown in the ellis / curry combination (the size question) Curry is not a great athlete. He may have quickness, but his speed and jumps are nowhere near others; compare him to a another young PG like Westbrook, and not even in the same ballpark.

The ellis / curry combination could work if the W frontcourt had players like Russel, Chamberlain, Olajuwan, etc. However the odds of that are slim and thus with the two, the Warriors will continue to be a 500 club who for bay area fans are “fun” to watch. However, to basketball purists, will continue to prove how unrealistic the current W braintrust is in it’s pursuit to develop a winning team.

SJ Jim

bry @347 “Frank….. Your #340 is a facepalm imo.”

bry, as is so often the case, it’s really not a matter of opinion. Sigh…

Friday

forgot to mention bry, that it IS about standing reach as you point out imo when a player reacts late to a shot, seen those kind of blocks many times, so don’t get me wrong; the kind I described is the kind I see when facing up playing one’s man tough, which seems to be how Udoh gets his and Turiaf too, whereas the other help kind swinging over to a slasher or the like is how I remember Randolph getting his…fwtw.

Seems that AB is our tallest and strongest (?) big; that BW probably has the highest standing reach and is very weak; that no way can one say that EU will out-jump many centers, especially not DHoward, in spite of Frank’s wishful thinking.

Of course, Larry Bird only had a 28″ vertical, which happens to be the league average. See source below

What happened to my post? A few minutes ago I posted the physical stats on our bigs: AB, DL, EU, BW and LA. Referenced all my sources.

Can’t be bothered to gather this info one more time.

Tarheel Warrior

But this I gathered from sources:

AB is our tallest and strongest (!) player. Jumps higher than EU and 1″ less than BW and LA. Bench presses 185 lbs. 15 times, EU only 10 and BW only 2 (!).

EU has longer wingspan than AB by 3″, but AB is close to 3″ taller, so their standing reach should be about the same. BW reaches higher than both of them.

Tarheel Warrior

Sorry about last 2 posts…guess things were slow at the Merc site.

Friday

Tarheel, according to the sources you list, you got Amundson’s and Wright’s wingspans wrong (you gave them more than they measured) and you got Udoh’s wrong too (gave him less than he measured).

meir34

Sam the only direct things Melo has said have been ambiguous save for his visits tot the teams. He like so many others including both James and Bosh said in the newsconference there how wonderful it would be to play in NY, or something close to that. Just like he just said no I didn’t refuse to meet with NJ Brass, false report, I’ll meet with them.

He’s cagily kept his mouth shut and likely at the advice of his agent. Yet it was his agent who reportedly put together the NJ reported offer. And Melo has made a point, several times this season, of noting that he hasn’t ruled out coming back to Denver.

All the other reports are from “sources”-unnamed. He has an entourage reportedly of 20 guys (James, the report said had 30 and some of them got jobs with Miami as part of the deal we assume. These guys live off of the superstars, get women because of them, get interviewed and profs and good treatment because of them, etc. But I’ll bet soup to donuts that he doesn’t confide this with them, and a steak to a bowl of soup that his agent warned him against doing so.

We all know he’s from NY. And maybe he’d like to go back there. But it’s’ a pro game and rarely do guys make bad decisions just out of things like that. It’s known but rare.

Nor has he shot down reports of him being interested in Chi, and didn’t on having supposedly told MJ he wouldn’t resign to go to Charlotte, etc.

NYK may be the favorite but it’s no done deal by any means. And favorites lose every day at the race track, check it out. And he has said he wanted an extension in place before the Summer’s CBA bargaining.

Denver and Melo both have to be satisfied and both have leverage, contrary to what anyone says here or on any blog.

My own odds have NYK now about a 35% chance, Denver resigning him about 30% and 35% some other team–including us in that last grouping.

Sam

Great so we’re back to judging basketball players based on their NBA combine measurements again. I thought we were talking about basketball, not big game hunting.

Friday

Is there a metric for their bball IQ?

Sam

Meir,

The difference here is that Carmelo wants a sign and trade whereas Lebron would not sign any contract before free agency. Carmelo has said that he would agree to a sign and trade with New York, and he has agreed to a sign and trade with ANY other team. That gives New York a huge edge in the Carmelo sweepstakes.

If he said outright that there was more than one team he would sign with it would change things. He wouldn’t even have to say who those other teams were. That’s why I think he is fixated on New York.

Sam

I think he is trying to make these negotiations more difficult for Denver so that Denver ends up having to settle for a weak S&T package with New York. That way he gets the larger deal and his new team loses the least number of valuable pieces.

It’s really screwed up what he is doing to his current team in my opinion.

Tarheel Warrior

About AB:

After getting off his bandwagon, I’m tentatively putting one foot back on it, following last 2 games.

When we drafted him, after 2 years it seemed to me we had wasted a pick. But came Nelson and AB bloomed. Averaged double/double for 2 season (2007-2008 and 2008-2009). By all measures, he was definitely a top 10 center those 2 years. I previously posted the stats but if you don’t believe me, look them up yourself at hoopdata.com.

That is one great report, makes AB sound like a future all-star. Now…if only he would revert to the AB of 2 years ago…

Tarheel Warrior

Seems we have won half our games when Lee plays. And this despite these facts:
1) he didn’t play very well after THE BITE
2) Curry and Monta also missed games
3) AB too often sucked.
4) the bench was usually thin (no Lou or Udoh) and useless.

Looking at things this way, my hopes are raised (once again). If these 2 things happen, we could be good:

1) Everyone stays healthy.
2) AB plays his butt off, plays like he did from 2007 to 2009.

Tarheel Warrior

Sam,

No. Not using combine metrics to judge players. It’s just that some here, for example Frank, make some outrageous and untruthful claims, such as Ekpe jumping higher than DHoward…when he doesn’t even jump as high as AB.

Just trying to give some perspective here, which is why I threw in Bird’s vertical and the league average.

The real vertical king might be this kid in Utah. 58″ jump onto a platform from a standing start.

BoKnows and scotch: Thanks. Terrific Vecsey interview with Monta; he gets the guy to talk more than any of our beats can. And Monta’s got a lot to tell us. Seriously.

Time to give Juanika her props. Monta’s done it; but she showed him the way — along with his grandparents.

Oh, and put down my vote for the Oaktown Warriors. I don’t HATE Golden State. Much. But I like the “local” hitch.

Still, I’d rather have a good five, or at least a really strong, defensive two. They’re much more important. And, of course, it’d be nice if they really were Warriors — on defense, at least.

Sam

Holy Crap 58 inches?

I thought the record was somewhere around 50.

Sam

I actually like Golden State Warriors. It has a nice ring to it.

Friday

When were the vertical leaps measured, I wonder…If it was at draft time, then a 7 year vet for example is probably nowhere near those numbers today, unless a workout monster, which I understand some are not.

Tarheel Warrior

Seems it was only 56″, but recognized by Guinness as a world record. Not bad for a short white kid.

Fascinating stuff (for me, at least) about jumping. Stefan Holm, a 6′ tall Swedish world class high jumper (won gold at 2004 Olympics) who has gone over a 7′ 10″ bar, has a standing vertical of only 23″!

Adapating from source below:

“The question is: How can Holm jump that high? He equalizes it with an extremely high run-up velocity, which is with 30km/h (18,6mph) one of the fastest worldwide. Decisive for his high vert. leap is the moment in which he transforms velocity into ?buoyant force? (lift).

The takeoff: Holm’s body is forming a straight line. Using a normal staff you can demonstrate why a stretched body pushes the body upwards.
If you throw the staff diagonal on the ground, it jumps with a ?rotation movement? upwards.

The horizontal momentum of the run-up-velocity is turned into a ?rotation movement? upwards during the moment of jumping-off the ground. (6:46-7:10). This movement is called: ramping Rotation.
During the Run-Up velocity is turned into kinetic energy.
Holm takes over the role of the staff: the more his body is straight, the better kinetic energy is transformed into ?buoyant force?.
But not everybody is able to use this phenomen.

In the moment of takeoff, the takeoff-leg is extremely high stressed.
The shock equals 650kg (1433 lbs). In the case of Holm it is 10times his own bodyweight. The left foot?s ankle is heavily loaded too.

All in all 3 factors are determining for Stefan Holms incredible vert. leap.:
an extreme highspeed run-up, a straight body and a left leg, which is strong as an ox, with this he is compensating his small height.”

Sam at 367, well, he hasn’t said he will sign with NY either. Reports sourced to unnamed people have said it. He hasn’t. Just that post game interview that was like so many. Ditto in Chicago as well for James and Bosh.

It’s not a true sign and trade, though as you’ll recall, in the end, post facto as it were, Lebron and Bosh both technically did go by S and Ts and Miami gave up first round picks as a result.

Denver has to be satisfied or else Melo will be subject to the new CBA.

Melo clearly has the most leverage but Denver has plenty of clout themselves or NYK would already have had Melo.

One thing I’m certain of: the vast vast majority of all reports on what he wants and doesn’t want are made of w(hole) cloth.

And whatever his predisposition is, as far as destinations goes, it’s subject to change. Hell, even college letters of intent get ignored when better offers come along. RARE is the NBA player who limits himself to one market and one only. While it behooves Melo to get the ante bid up by keeping other teams interested, if he really wanted to go only to NYK, and that was a high intensity choice, then those other bids might make the payment to Denver too high to be met by NYK. So why not publicly say I want to go to NYK and only nyk. If Denver wants me to play out my contract I will. But I won’t resign with Denver and that’s final!! But he’s said the opposite. And to me that’s probably significant.

Might get them to play stronger down low. And certainly rings of an Oakland phrase.

Sam

If he says New York and only New York then New York offers nothing at all, plays out the year and then signs him at the lower rate which will be all anyone including Denver can offer.

By leaking that New York is the only guaranteed place he will sign he keeps other teams somewhat interested and forces New York to make a sign and trade offer.

Sam

Personally I think the best trade targets are the teams that lose out on the Melo sweepstakes and are desperate to prove that they still got a top scorer before the deadline. I would never trade Monta for less than huge value in return, but the Melo chasers are all desperate for a clutch pure scorer, and we happen to have a clutch top 5 potential superstar scorer.

Why would those teams like the Nets not turn to us in desperation and make the same mistake with us as the benefactor. The Nets have awesome draft picks and a young potential star big in Favors (and I want Morrow back). The Rockets are desperate for a scorer at either SF or PG and may be willing to lose Scola and some draft picks. Either of those seems like a deal to me.

meir34

Nope, Sam. NY and only NY and still Denver must be satisfied or they can either force Melo to play until the season ends or trade him to some team for the months left.

Recall he said he wanted to have an extension before summer. If NY simply said, okay we’ll get you for free this summer and to hell with you and your needs or the CBA, while retaining the right to even not go after him, I don’t think that would sit well with Melo.

Face it, none of us knows what Melo really thinks. How strong and certain is his desire to play in NY. Hell, I’d bet that if the Lakers came around and made an offer he’d be glad to be a Laker and vie for the Chanpionship from day 1, whereas NY even with him is not a championship contending team. There are lots of variables at work here and the data upon which we are “guessing” is flimsy at best. Sure we all know he came from Brooklyn and we all know that he’s said after a game basically who in hell wouldn’t want to play here. That doesn’t lead me to conclude that NY is the only destination he’d go for and he’d go for it even if it cost him money to do so. Sorry, it’s not a logical conclusion from the data.

Our Team

Sam383: Trading for Melo is much different than trading for Monta. Melo is 6 7″, and was a star for Team USA. NJ is not stupid; they won’t trade an emerging star 4 for an undersized 2, no matter how much Monta can score. And I doubt Houston would give us Scola for Monta either.

Sam

I agree that he would be willing to play for LA but they aren’t allowed to offer him anything because they are over the cap. They are limited to the 4 million dollar MLE.

Even if it didn’t sit well with Melo would he sign with a team he didn’t want to just to spite the Knicks? No other team would be able to offer more than them at that point.

Sam

Our Team,

If they would give up Favors, Morrow, Harris and 3 first round picks for Melo why wouldn’t they give up Favor, 2 1st round picks and some cap matching filler for Ellis?

monsta

Thanks TW

here’s one for you

it’s Adrian Wilson of the Cardinals jumping over a bar set at 66 inches. He takes a couple of little steps before it, but it’s crazy

I merely gave my opinion that I didn’t think there is another center who could jump as high as him and would like to see him jump against Howard. I did not say he could jump as high as Howard. I provide no stats on Udoh’s reach. It was my opinion, it was not based on fact.

From there, posters have provided all different individual stats for various players. Some site material that indicates that Udoh has a 7’4 wingspan, the same as B. Wright of the Warriors, and 3″ more then Biedrins.

One claims that Udoh is three inches shorter then Biedrins. I don’t think that is true.

No one has provided Howard’s wing span nor vertical leap. One poster indicated that it was quickness and wing span, not vertical leap, that determines blocking a shot. (Friday, 354) Udoh seems extremely quick.

Others have said that AR has a vertical leap of 35″, and Udoh 33.5″. But I don’t think, based on observations, that either jumps that high when either going for a rebound or trying to block a shot.

I actually wrote what I did to provoke a discussion regarding claim that Udoh is a PF, not a true center. I like the reference to Bill Russell who claims that rebounding takes place below the rim. Who can argue with Bill Russell.

So, maybe the discussion should be who is the best at altering and blocking shots. Such would seem to depend on how close a player get into the face of the player shooting, his quickness, wingspan, timing and vertical leap. So there appears to be a lot of variables. And wouldn’t stats be influenced by whether the blocker is blocking a big or a guard? Howard clearly has the blocking stats.

There is no quick answer as to who is the best at altering and blocking shots. I guess, blocking stats is one indication, but is it the final arbiter? Especially since players like Biedrins often block the shots of guards coming into the lane.

Sam

Monsta,

Based on what I’ve heard from the Nets owner, he isn’t too concerned with ticket sales. Plus they’ll be in Brooklyn in 2 years, and their games will all be sellouts.

Sam

Have there been any reports on the injuries that Ellis and Curry are playing with right now? Will they both be 100% (relatively speaking) by tomorrow’s game?

Tarheel Warrior

Monsta,

That Stefan Holm guy, who’s a tad less than 6′, is jumping over hurdles set at what looks like at least 6′, in this video.

Maybe Frank should try basing his bb opinions on facts. But that’s only my non-bb opinion.

When you put your opinion above facts, you end up with climate change denial, Holocaust denial, and many other absurdities. You end up voting for Republicans.

monsta

Sam
Hmm. Glad ticket sales don’t matter to the russian.

But ticket sales (meaning how marketable your team is), that matters to everyone — you make money on excitement, and melo generates that. Everybody wants buzz.

I’m not pulling a meir and saying No Sam, I’m just saying it’s a different scale when you’re dealing for Anthony, because you’re not doing it just for basketball reasons. So Denver asks for more than that player is worth on a team, and the Nets will pay it — because they get more than basketball skills from acquiring Anthony.

Ellis doesn’t give you that, as an owner. He gives you exciting play, not marketable play.

When the Dubs visit other cities, are the preview hype ads saying come watch Monta Ellis and company take on the Whatevers? Or are they selling Curry, who captured people’s attention last year and who’s more marketable right now?

Thanks. That may be, but they are still broadcastingg the game Boston vs. Sacto, and I’m watching it.

Our Team

Sam: because Favors is going to be more valuable than Monta at a key position and he’s younger. God knows I wouldn’t have offered Denver what NJ did for Melo, but Monta is not Melo. If Monta were 5 inches taller and another 40 lbs it might be a different story. But if that were the case, the W’s probably would never trade Monta anyway.

Sam

That’s why I don’t think we can get nearly as much for him. I like our team and can live without a major deal. That one just happens to be the best I think we could pull off.

Sam

Our Team,

Favors being more valuable goes right back to the potential argument. Sure he could become a superstar pf someday, but he could also end up being Troy Murphy or Brandan Wright. The Nets have promised their fans that they will be contenders within 3 years including this one. Draft picks and Favors don’t fit that goal.

Avery Johnson is also completely enamored with Humphries for some unknown reason and has told both Humphries and the media that he intends to keep him. That leaves Favors open along with picks.

believewhat

Thanks Tired, I tried to look at Warriors perspective instead of a Monta or Curry perspective.

sartre

I’m still unsure that Monta and Steph can play together longer term on this dubs team. But it seems that whichever one is currently slumping becomes the favorite piece to move. I’m guessing the team keeps them both this season because there is no worthwhile trade using them out there and because it is a priority for the organization to make the team around them stronger before having to make Sophie’s Choice.