Personally I think O'Rahilly grabbed hold of this entry for two words to claim they represent a pre-goidelic language. However languages do shift, there is plenty of Irish from middle ages that could be termed "íarmbélre" or íarmbearla" today. Particulary that of the "bardic standard" which was a heavily stylished writing style which didn't reflect the vernacular (Caint na nDaoine -- Speech of the people)

If you can't tell, I'm really intrigued by any common non-IE (non-PIE specifically) word set between Italic and Celtic languages.

There must be more than just a couple of shared "base" non-IE words between the two as my understanding is there is a good case for an Celto-Italic dialect of IE prior to the split to proto-Celtic and proto-Italic.

If this word set is full of words related to Mediterranean flora and fauna, i.e. olives, wine, then we might see the Italic-Celtic split in some place like the Italian Peninsula.

If we see a lot of words related to mountains or cold weather may be we are talking about the Alps. Maybe there are particular crop or bovine species that are more northern than southern.

If we see a lot of words related to salt water boats, maritime activities, seafood, etc. may be we are talking about the Mediterrean again and Iberian Atlantic coast.

One word that stands out to me is that for salmon, in gaelic it is bradain. In that list it is esok. The latin name for a pike is esox.

And the Irish for fish is iasc, which appeares similar to esox, and is related to the IE words fish and pisces. In Irish the "p" (f) sound as been dropped completely as it has in many words.

The dropping of Indo-European P is a fundemental feature of all Celtic languages. A language cannot be defined as Celtic if it retains Indo-European P. What did happen though was later that some Celtic languges developed their own P sound which was however a shift of Indo-European Qw -> P, so in languages like Welsh and Gaulish P sounds appear in locations where you would find Qw in other IE languages.

Here is a comparison between Celtic and Italic regarding the loss of Indo-European P (using the example of Fish)

I would like to note that Basque language lacks the F (Ph) sound replacing it by the sound P. For instance latin Fagus into Basque Pagu. That easily delimits the borders between Celtic and nonCeltic Basque in ancient toponyms.

If you can't tell, I'm really intrigued by any common non-IE (non-PIE specifically) word set between Italic and Celtic languages.

There must be more than just a couple of shared "base" non-IE words between the two as my understanding is there is a good case for an Celto-Italic dialect of IE prior to the split to proto-Celtic and proto-Italic.

If this word set is full of words related to Mediterranean flora and fauna, i.e. olives, wine, then we might see the Italic-Celtic split in some place like the Italian Peninsula.

If we see a lot of words related to mountains or cold weather may be we are talking about the Alps. Maybe there are particular crop or bovine species that are more northern than southern.

If we see a lot of words related to salt water boats, maritime activities, seafood, etc. may be we are talking about the Mediterrean again and Iberian Atlantic coast.

One word that stands out to me is that for salmon, in gaelic it is bradain. In that list it is esok. The latin name for a pike is esox.

And the Irish for fish is iasc, which appeares similar to esox, and is related to the IE words fish and pisces. In Irish the "p" (f) sound as been dropped completely as it has in many words.

The dropping of Indo-European P is a fundemental feature of all Celtic languages. A language cannot be defined as Celtic if it retains Indo-European P. What did happen though was later that some Celtic languges developed their own P sound which was however a shift of Indo-European Qw -> P, so in languages like Welsh and Gaulish P sounds appear in locations where you would find Qw in other IE languages.

Here is a comparison between Celtic and Italic regarding the loss of Indo-European P (using the example of Fish)

In Proto-Germanic this sound actually shifted to F, thence fish in english.

The later development of an indepenednt P sound in Brythonic and Gaulish can be shown with this example:

Quote

Irish: CeathairFrench: QuatreLatin: Quattuor

vs.

Welsh: Pedwar/Pedair (Masculine/Feminine)Gaulish: Petuarios

Eo is also a word for Salmon in Irish, in old-Irish it was eó. So for example the "Salmon of Knowledge" is also known as "Eó Fis". The word in latin is actually a borrowing from Gaulish.

Eo -> Eó -> esōx (Proto-Celtic)

In Gaulish it was: *esoks.Modern welsh has the word Eog which is cognate.

I totally see where you are coming from Mike. I cant think of a paper on this but it would be astonishing if no linguist has looked at the various substrate non-IE words in various branches to see what is shared between branches. I did notice that a number of the unique possibly non-IE words in Celtic are shared by similar words in Germanic and Italic as well as some others. This lists some:

These all seem to relate to some sort of defenses. its interesting that the Celts and Germans shared these words and its also interesting that their ancestors seem to have encountered such structures and felt the need to borrow the word from the natives. That is very interesting. Large enclosures (defensive or otherwise) were common pre-beaker times in many area of western Europe (not in the Mesolithic though). You could read into that that the IEs who entered the future Celtic and Germanic area found some structure types that they themselves were not familiar with but that might be being overly simplistic.

I have sorted the non-IE words in Proto-Celtic (shared with Germanic and others in some cases) into categories that make it easier to analyse. I think the thing I tend to think is words borrowed could be indicative of unfamiliar or rarer or less important things in the point of origin of these IE groups compared to where they moved into.

I am going to have a good ponder over these but they seem to imply to me that the IE's who arrived in northern Europe were not as familiar as the locals with a land that was by maritime, featured a lot of mountains, moors, woods, rocks and bogs i.e a northern European type environment. I think there is an indication that they were less familiar with northern European woodland and upland flora and wild fauna (pig could be wild or domestic but in both cases was woodland associated). They were less familiar with fortifications/enclosure (apparently less familiar with round features). The oats borrowing is interesting too as this was not part of the Neolithic package. Its as if they hadnt encountered oats being of any importance in their journey until they reached the north-western lands. Another indicator that the IE's who were ancestral tot the Celts had lived in more southerly or certainly different climes. They may have been unfamiliar with the cloak and tunic northern clothes that pre-existed suggesting they had a different standard outffit. The awls and razors borrowings are curious too. I need to research that. The war chariot aspect may be significant too. Either this was already known in the areas the IE's arrived in or perhaps (seems very unlikely) it was originally encountered by proto-Celts from non-IE's (something that is definately possible for the advanced war chariot).

The oats aspect is hard to interpret. Oats were a weed among other crops and probably originated in the wild in the fertile crescent of Anatolia. What little I can find on the web indicates that the first sign of actual cultivation of oats was in Bronze Age Europe (Switzerland).

So if it was a weed spread into Europe from the fertile cresent or Anatolia by man by accident with the Neolithic's main crops of wheat etc then a word may well have existed for the weed. However, it is nevertheless of interest that the Proto-Celtic speakers and pre-Germanic IE's seem to have taken a word for oats from the northern European locals when they arrived rather than a wider known word. Again it maybe hints that oats were seen as more significant in the colder parts of Europe to the locals than the IE incomers. Oats of course can grow in cooler, wetter climates in areas with poor summers in a way that wheat cannot and certainly later became very important in the cool and wet areas of temperate Europe. its a little tangetial but it again seems to indicate that the proto-Celts and pre-Germans were relatively unfamiliar with oats, another hint that they were from different climes.

I dont want to push this too far but the way I look at it is its not necessary to imagine the things represented by these words were unknown by the proto-Celts and pre-Germanic peoples. All it might represent is that these things were relatively rare or unimportant among the IE ancestors compared to how important they were to the local non-IE elements they found. It is possible that this might represent evidence for a steppes origin of the proto-Celts and Germans or their immediate IE ancestors but other possibilities probably exist. The general impression of that group of words that the proto-Celts and pre-Germans or their immediate ancestors very much gives a pen portrait of temperate western and central Europe as far as I can tell. The fact that so many words were borrowed suggests to me that the origin environment of the proto-Celts and pre-Germanics was different enough for native words to be borrowed or eclipse PIE words for the same things.

I am curious about the history of awls and razors as they are on the non-IE proto-celtic list. If we ignore the lithic versions of these tools, I undestand that awls and beads were the very earliest objects made in copper in places like Anatolia and are really old (5000BC?). So, a non-IE word for these may make sense. As for copper or bronze razors, I am not clear about their Eurasian history. I know that were around by the late beaker period but I am unclear if they are older than that in Europe. If they were then again a pre-IE word for them might make sense. I will have to dig around a bit more.

EDIT=The best I can come up with on the internet is that copper razors existed before 3000BC in Egypt and adjacent. So, perhaps they were known about in pre-beaker times in Europe. Perhaps this proves that the makers of the very earliest copper in Europe were pre-IE or non-IE. Certainly the fact of all the metal objects, the awl, the earliest practical copper object by some distance and apparently made by cold hammering of narive copper, is the one that the people the proto-Celts seem to have encountered already knew and had a word for. It could suggest that the copper awl's spread may provide a terminis post quem for the Proto-Celts. However, I understand that the earliest copper awls are pretty old and would long predate PIE anyway.

I think its important to not that these are likely not words that were borrowed in the west by incoming proto-Celts. Quite a lot are shared with Germanic and others and they may be central European substrate words picked up by the common ancestor of the centum languages somewhere to the east of where we find Celts around the time of the opening of written history. In fact, I think that is probably because it seems unthinkable that people heading from somewhere like the steppes would not have had to pick up words for landscapes with woods, moors, crags, bogs etc and the flora and fauna that goes with that. I imagine that as soon as even the west end of the Ukraine and adjacent areas were reached they would have encoutered these things. That is another reason IMO to think these words were picked up at some sort of stage that was ancestral to both proto-Celtic rather than the latter. I definately get the impression from that list that the same substrate was encountered by the Proto-Celts and pre-Germanics in particular.

I think its important to not that these are likely not words that were borrowed in the west by incoming proto-Celts. Quite a lot are shared with Germanic and others and they may be central European substrate words picked up by the common ancestor of the centum languages somewhere to the east of where we find Celts around the time of the opening of written history. In fact, I think that is probably because it seems unthinkable that people heading from somewhere like the steppes would not have had to pick up words for landscapes with woods, moors, crags, bogs etc and the flora and fauna that goes with that. I imagine that as soon as even the west end of the Ukraine and adjacent areas were reached they would have encoutered these things. That is another reason IMO to think these words were picked up at some sort of stage that was ancestral to both proto-Celtic rather than the latter. I definately get the impression from that list that the same substrate was encountered by the Proto-Celts and pre-Germanics in particular.

There are a few words there which have cognates in Italic and Baltic; not much admittedly!

I think its important to not that these are likely not words that were borrowed in the west by incoming proto-Celts. Quite a lot are shared with Germanic and others and they may be central European substrate words picked up by the common ancestor of the centum languages somewhere to the east of where we find Celts around the time of the opening of written history. In fact, I think that is probably because it seems unthinkable that people heading from somewhere like the steppes would not have had to pick up words for landscapes with woods, moors, crags, bogs etc and the flora and fauna that goes with that. I imagine that as soon as even the west end of the Ukraine and adjacent areas were reached they would have encoutered these things. That is another reason IMO to think these words were picked up at some sort of stage that was ancestral to both proto-Celtic rather than the latter. I definately get the impression from that list that the same substrate was encountered by the Proto-Celts and pre-Germanics in particular.

Alan, thank you for digging into this.

I've never really accepted that probability that R1b-P312 or its predecessor lineages came west primarily via the Mediterranean. I acknowledge that is possible, but I keep looking for clues of related to travel by islands through the Aegean Sea, the Adriatic, peninsular Italy and over to Iberian coasts to perhaps around Gibraltor to Portugal.

I'm not saying the R1b-P312 didn't have maritime skills. Obviously, they did... or at least the Bell Beakers did.

Since you seem to be leaning towards early Germanic and Celtic connections and since we aren't finding the Mediterranean flora and fauna links, I think the main settlers came overland. Sure, there could have been explorers, pioneers and early colonizers by Sea and along the Med but it looks like the languages and genes were ultimately trumped by overland (via river valley) people. Just my thoughts.

Some have argued that, religiously, Q Celts became Qatholics, while P Celts became 'Piscopalians. ;-)

Think about it.

Many liguistics books state, that P-Celtic was created in the western alps with a mix on vindelici, rhaetian, lepontic and ligurians and fits with U152.......Q-celtic was created in the eastern alps and is mixed with northern illyrian, Ladin ( not Latin) and venetic and fits with U106.

The etruscans where left out as they could not prounce the early indo-european languages

I think its important to not that these are likely not words that were borrowed in the west by incoming proto-Celts. Quite a lot are shared with Germanic and others and they may be central European substrate words picked up by the common ancestor of the centum languages somewhere to the east of where we find Celts around the time of the opening of written history. In fact, I think that is probably because it seems unthinkable that people heading from somewhere like the steppes would not have had to pick up words for landscapes with woods, moors, crags, bogs etc and the flora and fauna that goes with that. I imagine that as soon as even the west end of the Ukraine and adjacent areas were reached they would have encoutered these things. That is another reason IMO to think these words were picked up at some sort of stage that was ancestral to both proto-Celtic rather than the latter. I definately get the impression from that list that the same substrate was encountered by the Proto-Celts and pre-Germanics in particular.

Alan, thank you for digging into this.

I've never really accepted that probability that R1b-P312 or its predecessor lineages came west primarily via the Mediterranean. I acknowledge that is possible, but I keep looking for clues of related to travel by islands through the Aegean Sea, the Adriatic, peninsular Italy and over to Iberian coasts to perhaps around Gibraltor to Portugal.

I'm not saying the R1b-P312 didn't have maritime skills. Obviously, they did... or at least the Bell Beakers did.

Since you seem to be leaning towards early Germanic and Celtic connections and since we aren't finding the Mediterranean flora and fauna links, I think the main settlers came overland. Sure, there could have been explorers, pioneers and early colonizers by Sea and along the Med but it looks like the languages and genes were ultimately trumped by overland (via river valley) people. Just my thoughts.

The early germanic - celtic connection seems wrong unless you refer to times after the Roman empire. there where no germanics in southern germany or austria while the romans where around. The germanic came from the north into southern germany and the east germanics came into northern italy via the east ( ie, goths) all after the roman empire

La tene culture was clearly started by the vindelici people of southern germany. The vindelici where not germanic...more likely they where a race that has since disappeared or they where gallic people

.... The early germanic - celtic connection seems wrong unless you refer to times after the Roman empire. there where no germanics in southern germany or austria while the romans where around. The germanic came from the north into southern germany and the east germanics came into northern italy via the east ( ie, goths) all after the roman empire

La tene culture was clearly started by the vindelici people of southern germany. The vindelici where not germanic...more likely they where a race that has since disappeared or they where gallic people

I think the important period would have been long before La Tene. It would have pre-Roman Empire for sure as well

The period I'm trying to understand is the pre-Celtic, pre-Italic period. Neither language existed and Germanic didn't as well. This would have been different dialects of IE speakers going different directions. According to the most IE language trees the Celtic and Italic grew out of the same dialect of IE. The pre-Germanic speakers were not as closely related although at some point the pre-Germanic was also just another dialect of IE. These three are all Centum, not Satem like Baltic and Slavic. Somewhere along the line these broke off, but if the pre-Germanics and pre-Celtics had common non-IE base words, not loan words, then that means they were in a similar vicinity. Germanic clearly seems northerly so it's just one more weight pulling Italo-Celtic origins north a bit away from the Med, or at least the central and eastern Med.

Mike- I would think that either the commom ancestor of both Celtic and Germanic encountered a similar substrate or Proto-Celtic and Pre-Germanic IE developed but both then encountered the same substrate due to the territories they moved into. Unfortunately despite a lot of speculation it probably fair to say noone is sure of the exact route of their ancestors.

The general impression I get is not that the IE's did not have words of their own for most of these things (thats clear in the PIE lexicon) but that they may have defered to local words that conveyed slightly nuanced meaning or for things which were relatively rare or of peripheral interest in their homeland but were common/important/left to the pre-IE natives. Its like the locals having far more words for snow if you know what I mean. Not all, but a lot of those non-IE words in Proto-Celtic sound like natural landscape and wild flora and fauna words for a temperate non-steppe country. I already posted that the Gaelic-specific list of apparently non-IE words seems really strongly to relate to things of interest to fishers or hunter-gatherers. Perhaps to the IE incomers these things were very peripheral to their main economy and mainly practiced by local substrate elements and so they deferred to them in this area of life even if they had words of their own for them (which they usually did).

The issue of the word awl and the supposition that this specifically refered to the copper ones which were one of the only types of object produced in natural copper in really remote times - over 8000 years ago I believe. All the other metal object types that existed at say c. 3500BC in parts of Europe have proto-IE words. Many of these had been produced from 5500BC. The non-IE nature of the word for awl might be down to the fact the copper awl was a much older product (pretty well THE practical copper item in pre-5500BC times) and dispersed through some parts of Europe in pre-PIE times.

Some have argued that, religiously, Q Celts became Qatholics, while P Celts became 'Piscopalians. ;-)

Think about it.

Many liguistics books state, that P-Celtic was created in the western alps with a mix on vindelici, rhaetian, lepontic and ligurians and fits with U152.......Q-celtic was created in the eastern alps and is mixed with northern illyrian, Ladin ( not Latin) and venetic and fits with U106.

The etruscans where left out as they could not prounce the early indo-european languages

And a joke was what I attempted to create in my last post, the one you quoted above.

Kind of like this one, which I also made up (unless someone thought of it before me):

Confucius says, "Sick man traveling by himself in Spain is going to Barfalona."

Yeah, I know. I was born in a cornfield, and I shouldn't quit my day job.

Some have argued that, religiously, Q Celts became Qatholics, while P Celts became 'Piscopalians. ;-)

Think about it.

Many liguistics books state, that P-Celtic was created in the western alps with a mix on vindelici, rhaetian, lepontic and ligurians and fits with U152.......Q-celtic was created in the eastern alps and is mixed with northern illyrian, Ladin ( not Latin) and venetic and fits with U106.

The etruscans where left out as they could not prounce the early indo-european languages

And a joke was what I attempted to create in my last post, the one you quoted above.

Kind of like this one, which I also made up (unless someone thought of it before me):

Confucius says, "Sick man traveling by himself in Spain is going to Barfalona."

Yeah, I know. I was born in a cornfield, and I shouldn't quit my day job.

I liked the Q/P one better. P(icts) is also for Presbyterian in Scotland

Some have argued that, religiously, Q Celts became Qatholics, while P Celts became 'Piscopalians. ;-)

Think about it.

Many liguistics books state, that P-Celtic was created in the western alps with a mix on vindelici, rhaetian, lepontic and ligurians and fits with U152.......Q-celtic was created in the eastern alps and is mixed with northern illyrian, Ladin ( not Latin) and venetic and fits with U106.

The etruscans where left out as they could not prounce the early indo-european languages

And a joke was what I attempted to create in my last post, the one you quoted above.

Kind of like this one, which I also made up (unless someone thought of it before me):

Confucius says, "Sick man traveling by himself in Spain is going to Barfalona."

Yeah, I know. I was born in a cornfield, and I shouldn't quit my day job.

I liked the Q/P one better. P(icts) is also for Presbyterian in Scotland

Yeah. I was working on the Pee inherent in P-Celts and the sound of 'Piscopalian.

But, then again, I thought traveling in Spain by himself . . . going to Barfalona (Barf-alone-ah) was pretty funny. ;-)

Some have argued that, religiously, Q Celts became Qatholics, while P Celts became 'Piscopalians. ;-)

Think about it.

Many liguistics books state, that P-Celtic was created in the western alps with a mix on vindelici, rhaetian, lepontic and ligurians and fits with U152.......Q-celtic was created in the eastern alps and is mixed with northern illyrian, Ladin ( not Latin) and venetic and fits with U106.

The etruscans where left out as they could not prounce the early indo-european languages

And a joke was what I attempted to create in my last post, the one you quoted above.

Kind of like this one, which I also made up (unless someone thought of it before me):

Confucius says, "Sick man traveling by himself in Spain is going to Barfalona."

Yeah, I know. I was born in a cornfield, and I shouldn't quit my day job.

I liked the Q/P one better. P(icts) is also for Presbyterian in Scotland

Yeah. I was working on the Pee inherent in P-Celts and the sound of 'Piscopalian.

But, then again, I thought traveling in Spain by himself . . . going to Barfalona (Barf-alone-ah) was pretty funny. ;-)

I asked along time ago about the possesional tense in Irish (probably all Q-Celtic) and how you don't 'have ' something it is 'on you', 'at you' or 'with you' etc. In view of these recent posts does anyone think it could be influenced by meso. hunters?

A little of subject but kind of relavent is there was a BBC program about Neanderthals apparently we carry up to 5% of there DNA with a cline from East -West. 5% is what we get from our G-G- gandparents (this is according to a U.S. guy forget his name but he work on the ancient DNA found in Russia) how did that remain so long after their extinction?

I asked along time ago about the possesional tense in Irish (probably all Q-Celtic) and how you don't 'have ' something it is 'on you', 'at you' or 'with you' etc. In view of these recent posts does anyone think it could be influenced by meso. hunters?

A little of subject but kind of relavent is there was a BBC program about Neanderthals apparently we carry up to 5% of there DNA with a cline from East -West. 5% is what we get from our G-G- gandparents (this is according to a U.S. guy forget his name but he work on the ancient DNA found in Russia) how did that remain so long after their extinction?

I love the possesive in Irish! It's way better than in English, and I love how many Irish still use it years after Irish has been spoken in their area of Ireland. My Dad often said thinks like, "He's got alot of anger on him" and "She's had a cold on her for weeks". Someone once said that our use of sayings like, "I bought it off him" come from Irish. I think Welsh and Breton use the same type of possesive.

I'm 2.4% Neanderthal according to 23andMe. The average for Northern Europeans is 2.6%

I have sorted the non-IE words in Proto-Celtic (shared with Germanic and others in some cases) into categories that make it easier to analyse. I think the thing I tend to think is words borrowed could be indicative of unfamiliar or rarer or less important things in the point of origin of these IE groups compared to where they moved into.

I am going to have a good ponder over these but they seem to imply to me that the IE's who arrived in northern Europe were not as familiar as the locals with a land that was by maritime, featured a lot of mountains, moors, woods, rocks and bogs i.e a northern European type environment. I think there is an indication that they were less familiar with northern European woodland and upland flora and wild fauna (pig could be wild or domestic but in both cases was woodland associated). They were less familiar with fortifications/enclosure (apparently less familiar with round features). The oats borrowing is interesting too as this was not part of the Neolithic package. Its as if they hadnt encountered oats being of any importance in their journey until they reached the north-western lands. Another indicator that the IE's who were ancestral tot the Celts had lived in more southerly or certainly different climes. They may have been unfamiliar with the cloak and tunic northern clothes that pre-existed suggesting they had a different standard outffit. The awls and razors borrowings are curious too. I need to research that. The war chariot aspect may be significant too. Either this was already known in the areas the IE's arrived in or perhaps (seems very unlikely) it was originally encountered by proto-Celts from non-IE's (something that is definately possible for the advanced war chariot).

Looking through just the first part of the huge IE lexicon it seems to me that the Irish for Badger and Hut do correspond to the IE root so I am wondering how much that list can be trusted.

The list of non-IE in proto-Celtic includes for example the words for hut and badger but in fact the IE lexicon includes bhūtā́ and bhrogkos which seem clearly the linked to the proto-Celtic (and modern Celtic) words for hut and Badger. Same with Garlic. Hmm