DALLAS February 5, 2013 – In a surpise move, a commission of the Turkish Parliament last week accepted a petition from a Turkish citizen to reopen the Hagia Sophia as a place of worship for Muslims.

The center of Orthodox worship in the Eastern Roman Empire for over a thousand years (360 – 1453), the Church of the Holy Wisdom, more commonly known by its Greek name Hagia Sophia, has been a museum since 1935 and draws millions of visitors every year. After the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453, it became the first imperial mosque of the Ottoman Empire, and the call to prayer sounded from its minarets for almost 500 years.

"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

“The Hagia Sophia Mosque in Trabzon has, unfortunately and for no good reason, been used as a museum until now. This sort of thing won’t happen as long as we are in power. Mosques are for worshipping Allah. No law can ever change its original purpose. If Allah is willing, we will all together reopen the Trabzon Hagia Sophia as soon as possible. If Allah is willing, we will go to Trabzon. We will line up for prayer and say ‘Allahu Ekber’ in the mosque of our ancestors.”

The neo-Ottoman aspriations of Islamist politicans like Arınç are no secret. Statements like the preceeding are standard fare in Turkey’s cultural war.

The problem with that statement is that its original purpose, dating back to the first building, was as a Christian church, not a Muslim mosque - hence why some of the original mosaics have been plastered over.

I frankly think it should just stay a museum. By this point the building has been used as worship for both Islam and Christianity and is important to both groups, so the relics/artifacts in it should be open to all (and those who aren't religious) to view. As the article states earlier it'd just reopen old wounds and leaving it as is is showing consideration (neutrality) to both sides. We'll see what happens though.

Maybe it will collapse on them (and no, I don't feel this is wrong at all - if someone decides "Hey, lets go worship at our newly reconquered mosque" I think it is evidence enough of them being a scumbag).

Maybe it will collapse on them (and no, I don't feel this is wrong at all - if someone decides "Hey, lets go worship at our newly reconquered mosque" I think it is evidence enough of them being a scumbag).

That would be good too.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:23:33 PM by Cyrillic »

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

DALLAS February 5, 2013 – In a surpise move, a commission of the Turkish Parliament last week accepted a petition from a Turkish citizen to reopen the Hagia Sophia as a place of worship for Muslims.

The center of Orthodox worship in the Eastern Roman Empire for over a thousand years (360 – 1453), the Church of the Holy Wisdom, more commonly known by its Greek name Hagia Sophia, has been a museum since 1935 and draws millions of visitors every year. After the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453, it became the first imperial mosque of the Ottoman Empire, and the call to prayer sounded from its minarets for almost 500 years.

First they take Deir el-Zafaran from the native Syriacs, now this. Sick, sick people.

It's been a mosque for 500 years and since the Catastrophe of the 1920's there aren't many Orthodox left in Turkey.

Deir el-Zafaran? Deir Mor Gabriel? No and no. The first actually still has about a dozen people in it (a handful of elderly monks, plus a few young students from local Syriac families), but regularly faces the same sorts of pressures and accusations that come as "evidence" before Turkish courts against the already-confiscated Mor Gabriel (e.g., its existence is an affront to local Muslims, so they have to come up with something to get it taken away...as I understand it, they are waiting for the last elderly monastics to die so that they can take it). Neither has ever been a mosque, to my knowledge, and even if they were, so what? Muslims get to take everything, and nobody can say otherwise? That's a load of garbage. The only reason it's even like this for Christians in Turkey in the first place (whether Greeks and their Hagia Sophia, or Armenians and their various destroyed churches, or Syriacs and their destroyed and confiscated churches and monasteries) is because the Turks' and Kurds' attempted genocide of all Christians in that part of the world. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see the perpetrators of genocide rewarded for having so successfully crushed the minorities in their midst by allowing them to continue their re-Islamification of Christian places of worship just because it started some centuries ago. It was wrong then (1453, 1890, 1915...how many times do we have to watch this happen?), and it's wrong now, and it will always and forever be wrong.

Dzheremi, I was talking about the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, Nicaea and Trapezounta. I know about the Syriac monasteries that are being harassed by the Turks, it's truly awful

« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 01:28:46 PM by Cyrillic »

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"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Dzheremi, I was talking about the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, Nicaea and Trapezounta. I know about the Syriac monasteries that are being harassed by the Turks, it's truly awful

And I am saying it's all the same crap, and I'm sick of it. If all genocide is equally terrible, the Turks should be hunted down to the ends of the earth and never given a moment's peace (as elderly Nazis still are; hell, the stolen art looted by the Nazis has been pursued with greater vigor than the genocide of the Christians of Turkey has even been addressed), not excused from the effects of the genocides on which their current hegemony is built when the oppression of the remnants of those same massacred populations is ongoing, and this latest aggressive attempt at re-Islamification is but the latest expression of their contempt for the natives of the region who have the audacity not to share in their false religion. (Note that ethnic Turks who have converted to Christianity in recent years are criminally prosecuted for the made-up crime of "insulting Turkishness", just as certain Turkish authors like Orhan Pamuk have been prosecuted under the same statute for admitting that the genocides did in fact take place.)

Turkey is in major denial, and ought to be shamed by the world, not cooperated with or catered to in any way.

Dzheremi, I was talking about the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, Nicaea and Trapezounta. I know about the Syriac monasteries that are being harassed by the Turks, it's truly awful

And I am saying it's all the same crap, and I'm sick of it. If all genocide is equally terrible, the Turks should be hunted down to the ends of the earth and never given a moment's peace (as elderly Nazis still are; hell, the stolen art looted by the Nazis has been pursued with greater vigor than the genocide of the Christians of Turkey has even been addressed), not excused from the effects of the genocides on which their current hegemony is built when the oppression of the remnants of those same massacred populations is ongoing, and this latest aggressive attempt at re-Islamification is but the latest expression of their contempt for the natives of the region who have the audacity not to share in their false religion. (Note that ethnic Turks who have converted to Christianity in recent years are criminally prosecuted for the made-up crime of "insulting Turkishness", just as certain Turkish authors like Orhan Pamuk have been prosecuted under the same statute for admitting that the genocides did in fact take place.)

Turkey is in major denial, and ought to be shamed by the world, not cooperated with or catered to in any way.

Is this really any different than if a petition were sent to Congress then they'd have to consider it? (depending on the number of signatures)I dunno if that's how our federal government works, but I know in my State if I get enough petitions on anything I can send it and our state legislators have to consider it.

Also, one of the quotes later on in the article refers to the church in Trabzon and not Istanbul.

Either way, I doubt we have much to worry about. I really don't think they'd change it back to a mosque.

I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

I've heard this argument before, and it is intriguing but I kind of wonder how it works, given the reality that Europe is not a Christian polity. In today's political and religious climate in the West (meaning, in Europe and increasingly in the United States), in which Christians and Christianity are increasingly disrespected and the public profession and expression of Christianity is increasingly legislated out of existence/made legally irrelevant, how is it that incorporation of Turkey into the EU should make things better for Christians in Turkey? Because all of these people who hate Christianity in the EU will suddenly care so much about it in Turkey? Seems unrealistic to me. I have seen maybe half a dozen examples of Western European politicians truly standing up for Christians in Turkey (like YouTube sensation Austrian MP Ewald Stadler), but they are often treated as extremists and paranoid people for expressing their anger at Turkey's two-faced hypocrisy.

So, yeah...I don't really see how this is supposed to work. Are you European? Can you help me understand this?

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.

I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

I've heard this argument before, and it is intriguing but I kind of wonder how it works, given the reality that Europe is not a Christian polity. In today's political and religious climate in the West (meaning, in Europe and increasingly in the United States), in which Christians and Christianity are increasingly disrespected and the public profession and expression of Christianity is increasingly legislated out of existence/made legally irrelevant, how is it that incorporation of Turkey into the EU should make things better for Christians in Turkey? Because all of these people who hate Christianity in the EU will suddenly care so much about it in Turkey? Seems unrealistic to me. I have seen maybe half a dozen examples of Western European politicians truly standing up for Christians in Turkey (like YouTube sensation Austrian MP Ewald Stadler), but they are often treated as extremists and paranoid people for expressing their anger at Turkey's two-faced hypocrisy.

So, yeah...I don't really see how this is supposed to work. Are you European? Can you help me understand this?

+1

I'd only add that to say that "Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries." makes it sound so incredibly benign, and I suppose that, on the surface it may well be. But with static or falling birth rates for non-Muslims in Europe and much higher birth rates for Muslims, well...it don't take no genius t'figger out how dat'll end up . (I can see this thread getting moved to "Politics", eh .)

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

How is it that incorporation of Turkey into the EU should make things better for Christians in Turkey? Because all of these people who hate Christianity in the EU will suddenly care so much about it in Turkey? Seems unrealistic to me. I have seen maybe half a dozen examples of Western European politicians truly standing up for Christians in Turkey (like YouTube sensation Austrian MP Ewald Stadler), but they are often treated as extremists and paranoid people for expressing their anger at Turkey's two-faced hypocrisy.

So, yeah...I don't really see how this is supposed to work. Are you European? Can you help me understand this?

Turkey is a secular state - Europe is a secular-minded confederation of states. Right now, things are considerably worse for the Christian minority in Turkey than they are for Christians in the EU.

Maybe the EU could fund the restoration of Christian monuments in Turkey. Maybe the Greeks, Arameans, Armenians with roots there could more easily visit their homeland and perhaps even return to live there. Maybe the EP wouldn't have to consider the prospect of abandoning Constantinople and moving the Patriarchal See elsewhere. Maybe a secular (Muslim) European state would balance the political equilibrium in the area. Last but not least, Turkey could not continue with it's "two-faced hypocrisy" indefinitely, once it became part of the EU.

I happen to live in the EU, but I wouldn't describe myself as too much of an enthusiast. I know European integration comes with strings attached for Christians, but overall I think it might be a lesser evil than the Turkish yoke is right now.

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.

LOL! I don't think the Israelis have the guts for that. But it's nice to think about, anyway.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

I'd only add that to say that "Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries." makes it sound so incredibly benign, and I suppose that, on the surface it may well be. But with static or falling birth rates for non-Muslims in Europe and much higher birth rates for Muslims, well...it don't take no genius t'figger out how dat'll end up . (I can see this thread getting moved to "Politics", eh .)

Yours is Pharao's logic: "Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us." (Exodus 1, 9-10) If they are having more children than the (ex-)Christians, then it must be God's will for them to increase and for us to decrease. Or our will and God's allowance.

Not surprising. Time to ban mosques in Greece, again...until WE get it back.

I have a better idea. Let's tear down the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem if Turks become courageous enough to do what they have long been dreaming of. If Hagia Sophia is turned into a mosque, the Dome of the Rock in Israel must be turned into ruins. The USA and Israel should join forces to realize this.

LOL! I don't think the Israelis have the guts for that. But it's nice to think about, anyway.

I gotta disagree with you there--I'm pretty sure the Israelis do, but the Americans would wimp-out and try to keep them from doing it.

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

I'd only add that to say that "Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries." makes it sound so incredibly benign, and I suppose that, on the surface it may well be. But with static or falling birth rates for non-Muslims in Europe and much higher birth rates for Muslims, well...it don't take no genius t'figger out how dat'll end up . (I can see this thread getting moved to "Politics", eh .)

Yours is Pharao's logic: "Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against us." (Exodus 1, 9-10) If they are having more children than the (ex-)Christians, then it must be God's will for them to increase and for us to decrease. Or someone ourwill and God's allowance.

I can't comment on whose will it is or isn't--just pointing out the situation. One can always take the viewpoint that anything that happens is either God's will or someone else's will and God's allowance. I dare say that it's almost impossible to argue with that--not that I necessarily would, except perhaps, if I was having a particularly curmudgeonly day .

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

I can't comment on whose will it is or isn't--just pointing out the situation. One can always take the viewpoint that anything that happens is either God's will or someone else's will and God's allowance. I dare say that it's almost impossible to argue with that--not that I necessarily would, except perhaps, if I was having a particularly curmudgeonly day .

Nothing can be done about it, unless Christians freely decide to have more children.

All sort of state-enforced demographic policy is bound to be disastrous. Under Ceaușescu's dictatorship such attempts were made in Romania - we ended up with overloaded orphanages and lots of homeless children on the streets, which our society was never capable of integrating.

Shutting the borders of the EU and adopting right-wing discriminatory policies towards immigrants isn't an option either. The ideal is for them to be efficiently integrated. And then, if they are open and the Church is up to it, evangelized.

I was pretty appalled by this news and wanted to post it. Please, no EU for Turkey. Ever.

No EU for Turkey means that things are bound to continue from bad to worse for what's left of the Christian minority in that country. Besides, lots of Turks have already moved to Europe.

If they are doing well economically and agree to amend their ways with minorities, why not? It's not like Europe were a Christian polity any longer... Muslim communities are already flowering in Western European countries.

I can't comment on whose will it is or isn't--just pointing out the situation. One can always take the viewpoint that anything that happens is either God's will or someone else's will and God's allowance. I dare say that it's almost impossible to argue with that--not that I necessarily would, except perhaps, if I was having a particularly curmudgeonly day .

Nothing can be done about it, unless Christians freely decide to have more children.

All sort of state-enforced demographic policy is bound to be disastrous. Under Ceaușescu's dictatorship such attempts were made in Romania - we ended up with overloaded orphanages and lots of homeless children on the streets, which our society was never capable of integrating.

Shutting the borders of the EU and adopting right-wing discriminatory policies towards immigrants isn't an option either. The ideal is for them to be efficiently integrated. And then, if they are open and the Church is up to it, evangelized.

What does *that* mean?

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

Getting a decent education, learning the language of their adoptive country, getting decent jobs in areas where they are capable of contributing to the welfare of society, not being segregated as outsiders or discriminated against.

In short, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"; "you shall not wrong or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt".

Getting a decent education, learning the language of their adoptive country, getting decent jobs in areas where they are capable of contributing to the welfare of society, not being segregated as outsiders or discriminated against.

In short, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"; "you shall not wrong or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt".

And what are the chances of all that happening in an increasingly non-Christian (or is it *un*-Christian?) society like most of the EU?

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

And what are the chances of all that happening in an increasingly non-Christian (or is it *un*-Christian?) society like most of the EU?

I don't think people must be Christian to be decent to foreigners. In fact, some who like to think of themselves as good Christians wrongly assume that it pleases God for them to mistreat/discriminate against foreigners.

And what are the chances of all that happening in an increasingly non-Christian (or is it *un*-Christian?) society like most of the EU?

I don't think people must be Christian to be decent to foreigners. In fact, some who like to think of themselves as good Christians wrongly assume that it pleases God for them to mistreat/discriminate against foreigners.

This is true, but it doesn't answer the question.

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

Getting a decent education, learning the language of their adoptive country, getting decent jobs in areas where they are capable of contributing to the welfare of society, not being segregated as outsiders or discriminated against.

You're dreaming. They do not want any assimilation.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

If the supposedly secular nature of Turkey and the EU is to be the nexus point at which the two can comfortably meet, then I would think that the properly integrated Muslim, in this schema, is one who ceases to view his religion as inherently more worthy of respect, toleration, or deference than any other, nor his community as being more worthy of any of that by virtue of their religious or other cultural identities (and as a corollary to this realization, also feels the same sense of equality with the Christians in his native land). I'm at loss as to how learning the language, having a particular kind of job, or living in a certain area does that. As has been pointed out in many different contexts, many a future terrorist obtained degrees from Western universities and was highly respected (and well off) in advanced fields of medicine, law, and other prestigious professions. This did not stop them from becoming terrorists.

I would hope that the standard by which people consider the idea of 'integration' would be something a bit more realistically effective, such as I don't know...wanting to integrate, including respect for the existing laws and pluralistic cultural values of the new host country. I mean, as a point of comparison, a lot of bad things have been said about how supposedly terrible the "invasion" faced by the United States from our neighbors to the south is, but I can't recall the last time a Latino killed a non-Catholic priest as an act of fomenting sectarian hatred, or killed his own daughter for dating a boy, or insisted that the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible be placed above all other religious books in a library in light of its obvious superiority and what a terrible insult it is to place inferior texts around it, or suggested to the senate that Christians take over mosques in the North America, etc.