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this is a genuine question, before people start attacking my intent on the subject

many of the people currently teaching aiki and Aikido follow the thinking that O Sensei was a martial genius who had a mastery of "Aiki"

As most of these people training "aiki" nowadays have never met O Sensei, how do they know this? Disregarding second hand stories, and verbal accounts.

Looking at video footage, can this be seen through body movement, training methods, mechanics etc of Ueshiba Sensei or not?? What is it that can be seen? How do proponents of today's aiki know this immense skill was present??

The man is no longer here, so the stories of interactions with him have to do. Specifically the ones that involve people that weren't, at the time, his students and weren't invested in building his legend. Those are the ones that should carry the most weight.

Aikido in general always looks overly cooperative on video, even his, but there are a few vids where you can see his body skill at work.

With the highest respect to all, especially to the Founder, no one can claim mastery of Aiki.
O Sensei was an avowed lifelong student of Aiki, and hopefully, he is not alone. He was often quoted as merely being in the very first level of his pursuit if Aiki Principles, duly recognizing how vast and all encompassing true Aiki actually is. Let us correctly honor him for that, and for the example he set for all of us.
He can be appropriately credited with Ueshiba Aiki, the constant resource and inspiration for his gift of Aikido.

Funny that you should bring that up. I'm finishing up a book about Ueshiba's aikido and how it compares to Modern Aikido, especially in how Ueshiba's "aiki" was different. Look for it soon.

From a Modern Aikido perspective, though, if only a very few people under Ueshiba ever got some of his "aiki", then how would 99% of the aikido world know what "aiki" actually was?

Some things to think about ... if you are training techniques and are relying on timing to make them work, that isn't Ueshiba's aiki. How many are taught to get out of the way of the attack by timing the movements just perfectly so that some kind of blending can occur? Great jujutsu, but not aiki. (That isn't to say that jujutsu is useless. aiki alone is not a martial system. You become aiki and then whatever martial system you choose, you express aiki in it. You still need jujutsu.)

Remember, too, that when Tenryu could not push Ueshiba over, could not get the better of him, Ueshiba stated that it was because he knew the secret of aiki.

Ueshiba and his peers (Sagawa and Horikawa) both noted that aiki was a body changing method, not a technique based method.

Looking at video footage, can this be seen through body movement, training methods, mechanics etc of Ueshiba Sensei or not?? What is it that can be seen? How do proponents of today's aiki know this immense skill was present??

A further question I think might be an interesting follow-on Chris' question: of all the things we can see Morihei Ueshiba doing in his publicly available videos and second-hand accounts of private happenings, just because he did it, and we can't, does that automatically make it aiki? And the things he taught explicitly to his students, does that necessarily make it aiki, or just the curriculum he taught to them based on what may have been a circumstantial background knowledge to understand something he wanted to explain later?

Or put another way, do we define aiki as merely what aikido does, or is aikido a larger grab-bag of teachings, only some of which have explicit utility in expressing aiki, if any? What if he regarded his students as so remedial that he basically had to spend 99% teaching them Martial Arts 101 before he could spend 1% of his time teaching some of them what he really meant? And yet, what if that remedial knowledge is still so far above most of us that it seems just as profound? i.e. the separation of aiki from the notion of internal strength, or of internal strength from efficient body mechanics, and so on, ...

this is a genuine question, before people start attacking my intent on the subject

many of the people currently teaching aiki and Aikido follow the thinking that O Sensei was a martial genius who had a mastery of "Aiki"

As most of these people training "aiki" nowadays have never met O Sensei, how do they know this? Disregarding second hand stories, and verbal accounts.

Looking at video footage, can this be seen through body movement, training methods, mechanics etc of Ueshiba Sensei or not?? What is it that can be seen? How do proponents of today's aiki know this immense skill was present??

Take a look at the following two vids, and you should see similarities in what's being demoed.

Essentially, Ueshiba uses the same "kind" of force in each example, but with uses them different. First one he projects to the chest, the other he compressed then released as a pulse to the leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA
It's more or less being done along the same principles as posted in this vid:
:22 - :24
Same thing, different flavor. Actually this one is even more subtle than what Ueshiba was doing in the vid, but that's just me

So sure you can see the skills, you just a) have to know what to look for, b) it helps if you can do this stuff yourself.

Out of the three, the leg bounce is the easiest to do/understand in a relatively short amount of time ime.
(Note, I say "do." "Doing well" is a whole nuther ball park )

Funny that you should bring that up. I'm finishing up a book about Ueshiba's aikido and how it compares to Modern Aikido, especially in how Ueshiba's "aiki" was different. Look for it soon.

From a Modern Aikido perspective, though, if only a very few people under Ueshiba ever got some of his "aiki", then how would 99% of the aikido world know what "aiki" actually was?

Some things to think about ... if you are training techniques and are relying on timing to make them work, that isn't Ueshiba's aiki. How many are taught to get out of the way of the attack by timing the movements just perfectly so that some kind of blending can occur? Great jujutsu, but not aiki. (That isn't to say that jujutsu is useless. aiki alone is not a martial system. You become aiki and then whatever martial system you choose, you express aiki in it. You still need jujutsu.)

Remember, too, that when Tenryu could not push Ueshiba over, could not get the better of him, Ueshiba stated that it was because he knew the secret of aiki.

Ueshiba and his peers (Sagawa and Horikawa) both noted that aiki was a body changing method, not a technique based method.

When asked what aikido was, Ueshiba replied, "I am aiki".

Excellent post Mark, your thought lines seem to be the same as mine! I've recently read that dancers who are at the top of their game display aiki and that O Sensei awarded a dancer an 8th dan after watching a performance... not sure as to the legitamacy of this...? ?
I totally agree at the body changing method, one which I grappling with at the minute, but I'm just a mere novice and suffer from the old time and money syndrome

Please inbox me when the books out, I would be very interested in reading!

I do know these Aiki skills are fairly common within China especially, but I wonder why O Sensei was thrust to the status he was when he obviously wasn't the only person with these skill sets?
Was it for his martial ability in general, as like we know, he wasn't the first to display thses abilities??

Take a look at the following two vids, and you should see similarities in what's being demoed.
...

I am a little bit "unsure" about what you want to say showing these video-clips?
The movemtents you point out show Ueshiba doing things which are part of our training all the time.

So do we practice something which only looks like "his aiki"? Then watching videos wouldn't help us to detect the "real thing". (Because we do something looking similar but being something else.)
Or are we practicing "Ueshiba's aiki"? Then the whole debatte about IS wouldn't make sense to me because I do it all the time. ( Which is not the case I think ...)

Quote:

So sure you can see the skills, you just a) have to know what to look for, b) it helps if you can do this stuff yourself.

So I see things, I cant do myself. But it's not the clue to "Ueshiba's aiki". At least not for me and the poeple around me.

Funny that you should bring that up. I'm finishing up a book about Ueshiba's aikido and how it compares to Modern Aikido, especially in how Ueshiba's "aiki" was different. Look for it soon.

From a Modern Aikido perspective, though, if only a very few people under Ueshiba ever got some of his "aiki", then how would 99% of the aikido world know what "aiki" actually was?

Some things to think about ... if you are training techniques and are relying on timing to make them work, that isn't Ueshiba's aiki. How many are taught to get out of the way of the attack by timing the movements just perfectly so that some kind of blending can occur? Great jujutsu, but not aiki. (That isn't to say that jujutsu is useless. aiki alone is not a martial system. You become aiki and then whatever martial system you choose, you express aiki in it. You still need jujutsu.)

Remember, too, that when Tenryu could not push Ueshiba over, could not get the better of him, Ueshiba stated that it was because he knew the secret of aiki.

Ueshiba and his peers (Sagawa and Horikawa) both noted that aiki was a body changing method, not a technique based method.

I am a little bit "unsure" about what you want to say showing these video-clips?
The movemtents you point out show Ueshiba doing things which are part of our training all the time.

So do we practice something which only looks like "his aiki"? Then watching videos wouldn't help us to detect the "real thing". (Because we do something looking similar but being something else.)
Or are we practicing "Ueshiba's aiki"? Then the whole debatte about IS wouldn't make sense to me because I do it all the time. ( Which is not the case I think ...)

So I see things, I cant do myself. But it's not the clue to "Ueshiba's aiki". At least not for me and the poeple around me.

Any thoughts?

Mmm, get your hands on someone that's reported to be able to do this "stuff"
It should clear up any confusion pretty quickly.

But does that mean that looking at videos of Ueshiba doesn't say wether this is the same "stuff"? Even if knowing what to look for?
That's about what I am not sure.

Ok, if you observe and research enough videos of reputable guys doing demos, you'll notice a curious correlation and find that they generally do a a) static "can't" move me demos - Ueshiba's head push b) demos where they emit a significant amount of force with little windup - Ueshiba's knee twitch and c) off balancing demos (which can get silly) where the Uke is controlled to varying degrees.

It's common in both the Chinese and Japanese styles.
If you have a good eye, you'll see similar mechanics being used by both (Ueshiba included), the most obvious being "bounce" type movements (which is why I pointed out the knee trick), and mechanics involving the back almost like a spring or bow, mind you I'm really generalizing.

Its here that you can generally see the components for "Aiki" at work and has little to do with the actual techniques involved.
So yes, you can see them on video.

this is a genuine question, before people start attacking my intent on the subject

many of the people currently teaching aiki and Aikido follow the thinking that O Sensei was a martial genius who had a mastery of "Aiki"

As most of these people training "aiki" nowadays have never met O Sensei, how do they know this? Disregarding second hand stories, and verbal accounts.

Looking at video footage, can this be seen through body movement, training methods, mechanics etc of Ueshiba Sensei or not?? What is it that can be seen? How do proponents of today's aiki know this immense skill was present??

Hi Chris
I have about as much interest in repeating, as people have in wanting me to...meaning zero.
Suffice to say that the vast overwhelming majority of people in Aikido-to include its highest ranked Japanese Shihan, haven't nary a clue what Ueshiba even thought aiki was, much less how to do it.

For starters, he himself was discussing aiki as a union of ki in opposition within oneself to produce "The mysteries of Aiki" NOT, the later union of two people. This is being made clear in the new translations of his work. Translations that his own students couldn't even comprehend. It was simply over their heads.
Through the efforts of those same students, everyone was is left to... "trying to blend."
Full speed...in the wrong direction. Unless and until they make a dramatic shift in their approach to their art, they will never understand him, his message, or his aiki.
Dan

Funny that you should bring that up. I'm finishing up a book about Ueshiba's aikido and how it compares to Modern Aikido, especially in how Ueshiba's "aiki" was different. Look for it soon.

Please keep me posted

Quote:

Some things to think about ... if you are training techniques and are relying on timing to make them work, that isn't Ueshiba's aiki. How many are taught to get out of the way of the attack by timing the movements just perfectly so that some kind of blending can occur? Great jujutsu, but not aiki. ... You become aiki and then whatever martial system you choose, you express aiki in it.

Timing has focus when you start learning techniques to find waypoints if you will. Later on you do not need those waypoints anymore and feel the technique, the flow. And become one.

Quote:

Remember, too, that when Tenryu could not push Ueshiba over, could not get the better of him, Ueshiba stated that it was because he knew the secret of aiki.

When stated like this I cannot help but think: that is only mechanics! Would this imply that aiki is the mechanical use of body? This would concur with top level dancers....

What would the principles of aiki be?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

Hi Chris
I have about as much interest in repeating, as people have in wanting me to...meaning zero.
Suffice to say that the vast overwhelming majority of people in Aikido-to include its highest ranked Japanese Shihan, haven't nary a clue what Ueshiba even thought aiki was, much less how to do it.

For starters, he himself was discussing aiki as a union of ki in opposition within oneself to produce "The mysteries of Aiki" NOT, the later union of two people. This is being made clear in the new translations of his work. Translations that his own students couldn't even comprehend. It was simply over their heads.
Through the efforts of those same students, everyone was is left to... "trying to blend."
Full speed...in the wrong direction. Unless and until they make a dramatic shift in their approach to their art, they will never understand him, his message, or his aiki.
Dan

Dear Dan,
Please refer me to where you can read the new translations of O Senseis words. Who if any of the Japanese/other Shihan [in your opinion]grasped what O Sensei was about? Please tell me why you believe this is so .After all am I right in saying you are not an Aikidoka?If indeed you are not an aikidoka how do you arrive at your conclusions?All the best , Joe.

Ok, if you observe and research enough videos of reputable guys doing demos, you'll notice a curious correlation and find that they generally do a a) static "can't" move me demos - Ueshiba's head push b) demos where they emit a significant amount of force with little windup - Ueshiba's knee twitch and c) off balancing demos (which can get silly) where the Uke is controlled to varying degrees.

It's common in both the Chinese and Japanese styles.
If you have a good eye, you'll see similar mechanics being used by both (Ueshiba included), the most obvious being "bounce" type movements (which is why I pointed out the knee trick), and mechanics involving the back almost like a spring or bow, mind you I'm really generalizing.

Its here that you can generally see the components for "Aiki" at work and has little to do with the actual techniques involved.
So yes, you can see them on video.

Just to follow on from this exchange - "reputable guys" is a broad church - there are some interesting people out there all with following so its not necessarily so easy to pick one out....and when one does its not easy without an untrained eye to see what is going on.

Certainly in your vid of the 94 year old master...he's doing something but its hard to really decide what...unless you've been trained to look for it. So bear with us Aikido guys...some of us are playing catch up whether we want to admit it or not.

Anyway - thats not really what triggered my post. Carsten mentions that the vid of O'sensei is stuff that is practiced in most dojos...which is no surprise really since we are pretty much all trying to emulate the guy and do what he did...aren't we?

however to steal Ellis Amdurs catchphrase...so much seems to be 'hidden in plain sight'.

What we think we are trying to do now may not be what is actually demonstrated.

For instance...O'sensei does ikkyo....Student 2011 does ikkyo. Same thing? or not?

Theres no right or wrong answer - the student may be aiming at Aiki power - i'll call it kokyu-ryoku ...or he may be using ikkyo to develop kamae, maai, and shisei...or something else.

So it may look like same thing ...yet may not be.

In my thinking - The ikkyo is just an external form to be used by the teacher to teach whatever he want.

Most people who have been around a while know this - In dojos where the focus is more than an array of techniques, there are generally a small number of techniques deployed but these are used to teach different things at many levels, this enables 4th dans and beginner for instance to train together and gain something relevant to themselve - which may be totally different things.

Eventually practice has to drill through all of these things/layers and reach its inner level. For me this final level is kokyu-ryoku or generation of Aiki power. This is what I love about Aikido...there are multiple layers of training and ultimately the promise of great power...but it does take a long time to drill down to the essence and until this happens then ones Aikido is always exposed to questions.

Now this is where the likes of Aunkia & Rob , Mike Sigman and Dan come in. To me they offer explanations that are clear, structured and achievable of work to be done to really target this deepest layer of Aikido and speed up and expand its integration into the body.

I think this suggestion grates with many ...because the old ways are not without merit . O'sensei selected the techiques of Aikido because they were 'fit for purpose' and I do feel that through long hard training using them then there is benefit and some 'aiki' skills can be gained.

I think most of us here know and have experience that feeling of grabbing some normal looking person ...and feeling that abnormal power.

So there are people that have something sourced in 'traditional' training.

Couple this with the fact that some of the originals were amazing, From my own experience -Tamura Sensei for instance was incredible in the way he could allow seemingly anyone to try to put a technique on him then reverse it effortlessly and its hard to see any suggestion that such inspirational leaders could have lacked in some way.

But there were language barriers, they were not trained to teach with lesson plans, schemes of works etc...they taught by example...by watch and copy. Maybe this is not the most effective way and there is something in the rethink of practice offered by IP training...another thread perhaps for those that love debate.

I think the crux is that the IP argument & training is seen as being in opposition to, or as criticism of traditional training in some quarters whereas to me its just another level with an opportunity to really focus on power generation.

Its not new - Pierre Chassange was telling people 20 years ago about 'changing the software' ...at the time I had a view of this which was at best incomplete...but now I believe it was more about training the subconscious mind to use hara and the postural muscled instinctively rather than the obvious big muscles. I don't see any conflict with this and the IP stuff...My understanding might be pre-school level but I do feel its heading in the right direction.

Similarly Stephane Bennedeti suggested over a decade ago that the the techniques of Aikido were specifically selected as a form of conditioning. Again at the time I had a view that I no longer have....but can see how this correlates with the internal winding/spiralling that Dan H proposes rather than being a physical toughening that I originally though.

I'm sure there are many other examples of such synergy and I do not think the picture is a black and white as others suggest. Certainly the term 'modern Aikido' was not one that could be applied to Pierre Chassange and there are many that carry his influence in their practice.

With regard to IP training and traditional practice - In essense - yes...in many dojos its the same stuff ...although there are clearly examples where its totally not , but in my experience the IP training may well be better structured towards the kokyu-ryoku layer of Aikido....It fits with the lessons I've received from some highly respected Aikido instructors and the more I see of it the more it becomes visible elsewhere in the teachings and movement of 'the top guys' who are using their bodies in a way that is not obvious to the untrained eye...yet eye training opportunities are becoming more and more available.

Hi Dazzler, I believe my Sensei has trained with you in the past and speaks highly of you

Quote:

Eventually practice has to drill through all of these things/layers and reach its inner level. For me this final level is kokyu-ryoku or generation of Aiki power. This is what I love about Aikido...there are multiple layers of training and ultimately the promise of great power...but it does take a long time to drill down to the essence and until this happens then ones Aikido is always exposed to questions.

Now this is where the likes of Aunkia & Rob , Mike Sigman and Dan come in. To me they offer explanations that are clear, structured and achievable of work to be done to really target this deepest layer of Aikido and speed up and expand its integration into the body.

excellent post

Do you think we aikidoka are going about things the wrong way, and should be initally concentraing on connecting the entire body, internally, before spending the majority of time trying to understand the essence of techniques etc?

Quote:

For starters, he himself was discussing aiki as a union of ki in opposition within oneself to produce "The mysteries of Aiki" NOT, the later union of two people. This is being made clear in the new translations of his work. Translations that his own students couldn't even comprehend. It was simply over their heads.
Through the efforts of those same students, everyone was is left to... "trying to blend."
Full speed...in the wrong direction. Unless and until they make a dramatic shift in their approach to their art, they will never understand him, his message, or his aiki.

i totally agree Dan, but looking at videos of Ueshiba, can you SEE how he generates his power and that the stories are backed up with physical or internal power?

Quote:

It's common in both the Chinese and Japanese styles.
If you have a good eye, you'll see similar mechanics being used by both (Ueshiba included), the most obvious being "bounce" type movements (which is why I pointed out the knee trick), and mechanics involving the back almost like a spring or bow, mind you I'm really generalizing.

if this is as common as believed, how come nobody has really come close to replicating Ueshiba's power, martial ability and strength, or have they??

I think the crux is that the IP argument & training is seen as being in opposition to, or as criticism of traditional training in some quarters whereas to me its just another level with an opportunity to really focus on power generation.
D

not just power generation, that's just one facet of IP training. methink, more accurately, it's power manipulation from within and without.

Do you think we aikidoka are going about things the wrong way, and should be initally concentraing on connecting the entire body, internally, before spending the majority of time trying to understand the essence of techniques etc?

Hi Chris,

not particularly - I think there are plenty of ways to learn, some seem to be really good, some not so good. For me I'm a practical kind of guy and I needed something active to grab my attention and then overtime I've become more and more open to the deeper message.

Others like the 'cerebral' approach so maybe what you suggest would work for them.

What I do think we need to do is recognise that there are many levels of practice and many places to get stuck and fall short....and accept that the Art of Aikido is not the techniques but what can be learned from them.

Having recognised that there is more than one way to float this boat - when something emerges / re-emerges such as this IP training...well lets grab it and incorporate it into what we have.

Not reject it because of a perceived slight against our teachers, or some other reason.

For me its the final piece of the jigsaw - but the jigsaw does seem to keep changing shape.

Dear Dan,
Please refer me to where you can read the new translations of O Senseis words. Who if any of the Japanese/other Shihan [in your opinion]grasped what O Sensei was about? Please tell me why you believe this is so .After all am I right in saying you are not an Aikidoka?If indeed you are not an aikidoka how do you arrive at your conclusions?All the best , Joe.

Dan's already posted a few of them. I think that I did most of the ones he posted, so I'll try commenting.

Some (many) of the English translations are clearly in error, with parts omitted because they were not understood (or thought to be irrelevant) and other parts mistaken because of a lack of background knowledge. There have been some discussions about this on Aikiweb already.

That's not to say that the translators were a bunch of dummies - it's clear that there wasn't any greater understanding on the Japanese side.

How many times have we all heard direct students of the founder say that they couldn't understand what he was talking about?

Well, if a direct student couldn't understand what was being said to them in their native language how could anybody expect that a translation be a non-native speaker who wasn't even hearing the direct speech of the founder would be accurate?

It's possible to look back at the writings of various direct students of the founder and show that they clearly missed what ought to have been obvious if they had had the right background. Not their fault - Ueshiba should have provided that background. At least one example of this has already been discussed on Aikiweb.

That there is so much resistance to the idea that anyone who trained directly with Ueshiba (or even Ueshiba himself) may have misunderstood or been mistaken is a great weakness of Aikido. Just imagine if the same attitude were adopted by historians!

Whether or not Dan is not an Aikido student (although he has been) is really irrelevant to the validity of the opinions expressed, which are clearly demonstrable, as above. But for the record, his Aiki-do is excellent, IMO.

Dan's already posted a few of them. I think that I did most of the ones he posted, so I'll try commenting.

Some (many) of the English translations are clearly in error, with parts omitted because they were not understood (or thought to be irrelevant) and other parts mistaken because of a lack of background knowledge. There have been some discussions about this on Aikiweb already.

That's not to say that the translators were a bunch of dummies - it's clear that there wasn't any greater understanding on the Japanese side.

How many times have we all heard direct students of the founder say that they couldn't understand what he was talking about?

Well, if a direct student couldn't understand what was being said to them in their native language how could anybody expect that a translation be a non-native speaker who wasn't even hearing the direct speech of the founder would be accurate?

It's possible to look back at the writings of various direct students of the founder and show that they clearly missed what ought to have been obvious if they had had the right background. Not their fault - Ueshiba should have provided that background. At least one example of this has already been discussed on Aikiweb.

That there is so much resistance to the idea that anyone who trained directly with Ueshiba (or even Ueshiba himself) may have misunderstood or been mistaken is a great weakness of Aikido. Just imagine if the same attitude were adopted by historians!

Whether or not Dan is not an Aikido student (although he has been) is really irrelevant to the validity of the opinions expressed, which are clearly demonstrable, as above. But for the record, his Aiki-do is excellent, IMO.

Best,

Chris

Dear Chris,
No one as yet has answered my very simple question-where does one acquire the re written transcripts of O Sensei?I am beginning to think I am asking for some Sumerian text or newly found Dead Sea scrolls.Guys, be specific tell me where you get the latest translation.I do not want to spend valuable time reading a discourse [however good it might be ] on aikiweb..I want to read the newer source articles as presented by the authors.Is this too much to ask? Thanks , Joe.