A few comments on the topics/discussion:- To me, this gen really seems to be about everything BUT graphics. Or at least, that's how it should be regarded.- Xbox One's Kinect sensor legit works- I don't consider Microsoft at fault for Rare's current situation. Rare was given some opportunities on the 360 to make good games. They accomplished that to some degree, but none of them were overly successful games. Microsoft not having many studios (less then than they have now) someone had to work on Avatars, but I think based on reading I'd done not long ago actually referring to Phil Spencer, that Rare has actually chosen to do the Kinect software. MS Game Studios have not been assigning them the projects. I think it may have come up in the spot where they talked about wanting to get them doing more traditional games again, and mentioning that something is in the pipe.- FWIW, I haven't followed the situation that closely, but what I read regarding the Killer Instinct fiasco was that the console this happened on was NOT the home console for the game and as such WOULD BE subject to the 24hr check in. Could be wrong though.- Kameo WAS good.- Google Plus is slowly, methodically killing YouTube.- lol Bitcoins

A few comments on the topics/discussion:- To me, this gen really seems to be about everything BUT graphics. Or at least, that's how it should be regarded.- Xbox One's Kinect sensor legit works- I don't consider Microsoft at fault for Rare's current situation. Rare was given some opportunities on the 360 to make good games. They accomplished that to some degree, but none of them were overly successful games. Microsoft not having many studios (less then than they have now) someone had to work on Avatars, but I think based on reading I'd done not long ago actually referring to Phil Spencer, that Rare has actually chosen to do the Kinect software. MS Game Studios have not been assigning them the projects. I think it may have come up in the spot where they talked about wanting to get them doing more traditional games again, and mentioning that something is in the pipe.- FWIW, I haven't followed the situation that closely, but what I read regarding the Killer Instinct fiasco was that the console this happened on was NOT the home console for the game and as such WOULD BE subject to the 24hr check in. Could be wrong though.- Kameo WAS good.- Google Plus is slowly, methodically killing YouTube.- lol Bitcoins

Thanks for listening, Sypher :') Really glad you enjoyed it!

Sypher_04 wrote:

To me, this gen really seems to be about everything BUT graphics. Or at least, that's how it should be regarded.

Graphics or not it's hard to see the general direction; there's quite a lot of experimenting going on or trying out the same stuff in different ways that seems somewhat unnecessary. Sony's now focusing entirely on the 'gaming experience' whereas Microsoft has now switched places and is now focused on making the Xbox the one entertainment hub you'll ever need in your living room. None of these directions made by either player averages out to a single focus. From what I've seen I'd probably extend that argument and say that this gen really seems to be about everything but the games; everything around games is taking precedence, either for better or worse. You could argue that last gen wasn't 100% about games either but I think it'd have the upper hand if you compared it to this one.

Sypher_04 wrote:

- I don't consider Microsoft at fault for Rare's current situation. Rare was given some opportunities on the 360 to make good games. They accomplished that to some degree, but none of them were overly successful games. Microsoft not having many studios (less then than they have now) someone had to work on Avatars, but I think based on reading I'd done not long ago actually referring to Phil Spencer, that Rare has actually chosen to do the Kinect software. MS Game Studios have not been assigning them the projects. I think it may have come up in the spot where they talked about wanting to get them doing more traditional games again, and mentioning that something is in the pipe.- FWIW, I haven't followed the situation that closely, but what I read regarding the Killer Instinct fiasco was that the console this happened on was NOT the home console for the game and as such WOULD BE subject to the 24hr check in. Could be wrong though.

I guess in the end a lot of it is just the denial that whatever happened to Rare's image and freedom of development over the past few years is not applicable to any other game studio; the reality is 5 years ago budgets were smaller and risk toleration was much higher, and I guess Rare ended up getting caught up with that regardless of the acquisition. Only very few studios have managed to prevent themselves from getting tangled in that, either with an IP that allows them to do just that or through other ventures (e.g. Valve with Steam), and I guess people are frustrated that that didn't happen with Rare.

I guess in the end a lot of it is just the denial that whatever happened to Rare's image and freedom of development over the past few years is not applicable to any other game studio; the reality is 5 years ago budgets were smaller and risk toleration was much higher, and I guess Rare ended up getting caught up with that regardless of the acquisition. Only very few studios have managed to prevent themselves from getting tangled in that, either with an IP that allows them to do just that or through other ventures (e.g. Valve with Steam), and I guess people are frustrated that that didn't happen with Rare.

Rare was allowed to make Grabbed By The Ghoulies (Clearly their sole decision, and an HD remake of Conker [Amazing btw] for the Xbox. They had Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero at 360 launch. Kameo was good. PDZ was below minimum expectations. Perfect Dark HD was released on XBL. So was the Banjo games (Lame!). Viva Piñata was probably one of the most addicting/exciting/successful new IPs this gen (TV show AND Nintendo DS release). Throw in that they did Wii Sports far better tha Wii Sports (From someone with both), and Rare was amazing this gen.

I truly believe Nintendo fanboys can't accept non-ninty Rare, along with people thought their games were better than they really were back in the snes/Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR days.

I guess in the end a lot of it is just the denial that whatever happened to Rare's image and freedom of development over the past few years is not applicable to any other game studio; the reality is 5 years ago budgets were smaller and risk toleration was much higher, and I guess Rare ended up getting caught up with that regardless of the acquisition. Only very few studios have managed to prevent themselves from getting tangled in that, either with an IP that allows them to do just that or through other ventures (e.g. Valve with Steam), and I guess people are frustrated that that didn't happen with Rare.

Rare was allowed to make Grabbed By The Ghoulies (Clearly their sole decision, and an HD remake of Conker [Amazing btw] for the Xbox. They had Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero at 360 launch. Kameo was good. PDZ was below minimum expectations. Perfect Dark HD was released on XBL. So was the Banjo games (Lame!). Viva Piñata was probably one of the most addicting/exciting/successful new IPs this gen (TV show AND Nintendo DS release). Throw in that they did Wii Sports far better tha Wii Sports (From someone with both), and Rare was amazing this gen.

I truly believe Nintendo fanboys can't accept non-ninty Rare, along with people thought their games were better than they really were back in the snes/Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR days.

All the games that you mentioned failed to meet revenue expectations; hence the massive restructure in 2009 that was responsible for cutting out a lot of people that were with the company for a long time as well as another set of layoffs in 2011 despite their new success with Kinect. Grant Kirkhope also left in 2008.

That and we're ignoring the fact that the foundersleft in 2007, just like that. Does that really happen?

I'm not denying the fact that they still make great games, but you also can't deny that something happened to Rare, and it looks as though a lot of people that were originally with the company decided not to stick around, or were forced to do so; the last decade was unfortunately not a smooth ride and you can expect a lot of people to be disappointed with the fact that the same company and brand is now based on a largely different set of people.

People didn't support them enough to justify the price Microsoft paid for them along with their absolutely atrocious dev times.

A restructure HAD to happen if there was any hope for Microsoft to make any money at all from Rare. Kameo, Ghoulies, and PDZ were all very much Rare games. They had a chance, and they were decent, but the biggest issue was that Rare didn't evolve along with the tech and game design. Kameo and PDZ would've been more at home somewhere around the year 2000. They're not BAD (especially in the case of Kameo), but they weren't as good and polished as they should have been given the time they had.

Also, any company that WOULDN'T restructure after the amount Microsoft paid and the relative ho-hum reception of their first 4 or 5 games is financially insane and would rightfully be in a financial hell. Rare hadn't been relevant since the Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR. They weren't going to be without some SERIOUS changes. The fact that it's not the changes old fans (from the Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR days) wanted is pretty irrelevant, since they largely weren't supporting their efforts anyway.

People didn't support them enough to justify the price Microsoft paid for them along with their absolutely atrocious dev times.

A restructure HAD to happen if there was any hope for Microsoft to make any money at all from Rare. Kameo, Ghoulies, and PDZ were all very much Rare games. They had a chance, and they were decent, but the biggest issue was that Rare didn't evolve along with the tech and game design. Kameo and PDZ would've been more at home somewhere around the year 2000. They're not BAD (especially in the case of Kameo), but they weren't as good and polished as they should have been given the time they had.

Also, any company that WOULDN'T restructure after the amount Microsoft paid and the relative ho-hum reception of their first 4 or 5 games is financially insane and would rightfully be in a financial hell. Rare hadn't been relevant since the Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR. They weren't going to be without some SERIOUS changes. The fact that it's not the changes old fans (from the Nintendo Sixty FOOOOOOUUUUUURRRRRR days) wanted is pretty irrelevant, since they largely weren't supporting their efforts anyway.

I guess the bigger question would then be why Rare wasn't really able to keep up—sure it's easier said than done, but it's not something that you see happening to every game dev out there (fortunately, I guess).

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