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Hey Let's Talk About Mormons!

Posts

I love how people mix up Mormonism with some of the other "fringier" sects of christianity?

No birthday parties? Nope that's the Jehovah's Witnesses
Can't take medication? Try again! Christian Scientists
Church is on Saturday? Nope! Seventh Day Adventist
Speaking in Tongues? You were looking for Pentecostals

I knew all of those.

Coffee and Tea are evil? Bingo! we have a winner!

I've never even heard of this. What do Mormons have against tea?

Yup, thats true. Caffeine affects the way your brain works and is therefore considered a "drug" to mormons

EDIT: Checked out MoDo's link. I guess it all depends on what "Ward" youre in then

On the subjct of the word of wisdom it includes, tobaco, alcohol, drugs, coffee and tea, and when i say tea i mean black, green nd iced tea. The main reason for tea is that it is a stimulant, as far as coffee, its not specificaly the caffine,point in case for me is that i know the comandment is true, so im willing to obey it. there are also lots of new studies showing the danger of coffee,(tanic acid).

something interestig to note is that when Joseph Smith recieved this revelation in 1833, the medical dangers of these substances were not known, in fact back then, peop0le claimed that tobacco made you stronger, it wasnt untill the 1930s when we discovered the dangers of it. As for soda that contains caffine, its not prohibited, we can drink coke and go t the temple, but it is cauioned against, and i have made an effot to not drink dr pepper(as wel as ny soda because its just unhealthy)

Fuck Mormonism. You know the whole debacle with creationists trying to get into biology classrooms? Archaeologists and Egyptologists have had to deal with similar shit from Mormons for far longer because their religion says that Joseph Smith found some plates written in "reformed Egyptian" and that Native Americans are direct descendants from Hebrews and other such nonsense.

Are Mormon teachings any less batshit insane than other Christian teachings? Perhaps not, but the insanity of their claims are much more apparent because of the fact that Mormonism started in recent history so there is a wealth of good historical information that we can look at regarding their claims and many of their claims are easily falsifiable with modern science. For example, Native Americans definitely did not come from Hebrews.

Also, their religion was supposedly given to them by a being named Moroni. MORONi. Come on. That says it right there.

I love how people mix up Mormonism with some of the other "fringier" sects of christianity?

No birthday parties? Nope that's the Jehovah's Witnesses
Can't take medication? Try again! Christian Scientists
Church is on Saturday? Nope! Seventh Day Adventist
Speaking in Tongues? You were looking for Pentecostals

I knew all of those.

Coffee and Tea are evil? Bingo! we have a winner!

I've never even heard of this. What do Mormons have against tea?

Yup, thats true. Caffeine affects the way your brain works and is therefore considered a "drug" to mormons

EDIT: Checked out MoDo's link. I guess it all depends on what "Ward" youre in then

I wish Mormons would take that belief to its logical conclusion. Sugar affects the way your brain works. They need to stop eating all sugars.

It's not misleading at all actually. Section 132 of "The Doctrine and Covenants" declared that a man can't enter Heaven unless he's married at least three women. I paraphrased. And I'm not sure that's in the current edition, and no, I can't tell you what edition it would be in.

wrong, i have no idea how you came to that conlusion, it says we have to accept the doctrne of polygamy when comanded by the lord, there is no given number that you have to marry however many wives.

And apparently it was so widespread among Mormons that James Buchanan sent the U.S. Army into Utah to dismantle the then Brigham Young led church due to the anti-polygamy sentiment that had gripped the country.

that was not because of polygamy, utah had been trying to become a state for some time, unfortunately due to the anti mormon sentiments that existed long before polygamy was announced, the teritory kept recieving corrupt govenors who often left their post after some scandal (like calling mormon wome whores or getting caught with a gentile prostitute) the returned with ill feelings to the church and spread lies of rebellion, thankfully for people like Doniphan. a non mormon politician, it was eventully stopped,

Just because it fell out of favor and it's historical importance removed from the teachings, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and wasn't at one point, one of the most important aspects of the religion.

we dont deny that we practiced it, in fact saying on the front page that we do not believe in the doctrine of polygamy any more is untrue, we do stll believe in the doctrine of polygamy, but do not practice it because it is not needed any more .

The nice thing about Mormonism is that all their beliefs, from the beginning of the religion to current day, are all available to research. Everything's been published, so it's easy to have an actual, fact-based discussion about it.

itd be nice if you were using facts

And just for the record, I prefer any religion that I am a part of to have its central figure long dead and untouchable. I'm not saying I hold to a particular belief, I'm just saying I don't want to personally know my prophet. That's just ripe for a big letdown.[/QUOTE]

How did I miss this thread, there is somuch debunking to be doing. also im giving plasma so i have to type with one hand. to start off, the front page says that blacks were not allowed into the church untill the 70's. this is a complete lie, they were prohibited from recieving the priesthood, such a reason which is too depth to talk about right now. there is a book called "the truth about mormons and blacks" written by the first black person to recieve the priesthood, you could check that out for starters.

oh this is going to be fun...

I don't think it's going to be as fun as you think it is. The only thing that makes Mormanism slightly more palatable then Scientology is the fact that we've been trying to throw it up for longer.

Sentry on October 2008

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

wrote:

When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'

On the subjct of the word of wisdom it includes, tobaco, alcohol, drugs, coffee and tea, and when i say tea i mean black, green nd iced tea. The main reason for tea is that it is a stimulant, as far as coffee, its not specificaly the caffine,point in case for me is that i know the comandment is true, so im willing to obey it. there are also lots of new studies showing the danger of coffee,(tanic acid).

I agree that caffeine is to be considered a drug. I also think that drugs are just fine (certainly a potential health risk, but beneficial in non-physical ways).

Here's what's so tricky about mormons for me: in my experience, they're really nice people, even though their beliefs aren't based in reality (kind of like Scientologists, but a dash less brainwashy). You've traded truth for happiness, and on some level, there's no way to argue with that.

You have studied edited/revised documents. This has already been mentioned.

So any claim i use, you reply that it is false information from a biased source, where as any information you use, is most likely from an anti mormon source that distorts the truth and leaves out important information, oh this is sur to go somewhere quick

By the way, what you could do, is you know, start posting actual sources. Both sides. Should be good fun.

I'm done donating plasma, so it would be easier, but i have enough homework that ill be pretty busy. I think its obvious that I am probably the only ACTIVE member of the church on these forums, the only thing i can ask is that, honestly, there is so much distorted notions of the church out there, that you allow me the opportunity atleast to answer whatever claims are made.

To be fair, polygamy was never widespread through Mormons even when it was at it's height. When polygamy was the most widespread, it was only practiced by about 10% of them. It was a radical and controversial issue among them even then. It's extremely misleading to say that mormons simply believed in polygamy.

It's not misleading at all actually. Section 132 of "The Doctrine and Covenants" declared that a man can't enter Heaven unless he's married at least three women. I paraphrased. And I'm not sure that's in the current edition, and no, I can't tell you what edition it would be in.

And apparently it was so widespread among Mormons that James Buchanan sent the U.S. Army into Utah to dismantle the then Brigham Young led church due to the anti-polygamy sentiment that had gripped the country.

Just because it fell out of favor and it's historical importance removed from the teachings, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and wasn't at one point, one of the most important aspects of the religion.

The nice thing about Mormonism is that all their beliefs, from the beginning of the religion to current day, are all available to research. Everything's been published, so it's easy to have an actual, fact-based discussion about it.

And just for the record, I prefer any religion that I am a part of to have its central figure long dead and untouchable. I'm not saying I hold to a particular belief, I'm just saying I don't want to personally know my prophet. That's just ripe for a big letdown.

Do you have a link to that portion of the D&C? Because I looked and I can't find it.

It is also true that only a portion of the Mormons (mostly higher-ups in the church) practiced polygamy. It's really expensive to take care of a family with that many people. Described in Under the Banner of Heaven (not exactly a pro-Mormon book.)

Yes, the Army was sent to "deal" with the Mormons. Definitely not just because they were polygamists. There was a lot of anti-Mormon sentiment around the country (as there was everywhere they had lived, hence why they kept moving around and eventually ended up in the middle of nowhere). People were not happy with the polygamy angle, but the government was more concerned with the fact that the Mormons wanted to be more and more autonomous and independent from the rest of the Union. Also the backlash from the Mountain Meadows incident (massacre) and other harassing/attacks on non-Mormons in Utah Territory.

To be fair, polygamy was never widespread through Mormons even when it was at it's height. When polygamy was the most widespread, it was only practiced by about 10% of them. It was a radical and controversial issue among them even then. It's extremely misleading to say that mormons simply believed in polygamy.

It's not misleading at all actually. Section 132 of "The Doctrine and Covenants" declared that a man can't enter Heaven unless he's married at least three women. I paraphrased. And I'm not sure that's in the current edition, and no, I can't tell you what edition it would be in.

Again, would be kind of hard since that "portion" doesn't exist. Nor did it ever.

Is there an online text we can agree is a fair/accurate representation of Mormon beliefs?

Well I don't really care on whether we can agree if it's fair/accurate; I looked through D&C 132 on lds.org and couldn't find the part eHero was talking about. But Magus said that people were reviewing "revised" texts. So show me the unrevised text - Mormonism isn't that old, it must be somewhere.

By the way, what you could do, is you know, start posting actual sources. Both sides. Should be good fun.

I'm done donating plasma, so it would be easier, but i have enough homework that ill be pretty busy. I think its obvious that I am probably the only ACTIVE member of the church on these forums, the only thing i can ask is that, honestly, there is so much distorted notions of the church out there, that you allow me the opportunity atleast to answer whatever claims are made.

Fair enough. I'm not even going to try be a moderator in here-just going along for the ride.

Is there an online text we can agree is a fair/accurate representation of Mormon beliefs?

Well I don't really care on whether we can agree if it's fair/accurate; I looked through D&C 132 on lds.org and couldn't find the part eHero was talking about. But Magus said that people were reviewing "revised" texts. So show me the unrevised text - Mormonism isn't that old, it must be somewhere.

Okay, I may be willing to concede the three wife rule at the moment. I can't find a good source for that anywhere, and every search I come up with leads back to my original source, which was "Under the Banner of Heaven." That passage is quoted several times, as it relates to section 132 and three wives. And if that source is incorrect, then so am I.

Regardless, polygamy was still a major part of Mormonism, and it was only pushed in the background due to public pressure. My problem with this is that everything else I've read leads me to believe this was a central tenet of the faith. You don't just push these things to the back because the public is against it. This is a mandate from God! Other religions have done this too, and if we ever start up a thread on them, I'll try to chime in on how that irks me.

And here are two articles right quick that talk about anti-polygamy sentiment during the James Buchanan era. Not necessarily anti-Mormon. I understand that Mormons could have been the only people practicing it, but from what the articles state, it was the polygamist practices that got them in trouble.

Look, I obviously have a dim view of this particular religion. And honestly, of the five Mormons I've met in my lifetime, I disliked 100% of them. Mostly due to their, "I'm better than you, my light shines brighter than yours" rhetoric that they never seemed to shut up about. I'm sure there are good Mormons out there, just as I'm sure there are politically-biased news reports on Fox. But this is my experience, and if five people have the exact same character flaws, well, I'm only human and I'm quick to judge.

But I'm perfectly willing to admit a mistake if I cite a source wrong, or if the source I cite is wrong. I'm only as good as the research I'm capable of doing. I'm certainly not spouting off things I'm just making up off the top of my head, just to prove my point. And I apologize if it seemed that way. If someone does find an unrevised link to Section 132 though (which may actually be a different section number originally), let me know!

By the way, what you could do, is you know, start posting actual sources. Both sides. Should be good fun.

I'm done donating plasma, so it would be easier, but i have enough homework that ill be pretty busy. I think its obvious that I am probably the only ACTIVE member of the church on these forums, the only thing i can ask is that, honestly, there is so much distorted notions of the church out there, that you allow me the opportunity atleast to answer whatever claims are made.

Well, your job would be made easier if those making claims about the Mormon Church would post sources, at which point you'd need only refute them.

By the way, what you could do, is you know, start posting actual sources. Both sides. Should be good fun.

I'm done donating plasma, so it would be easier, but i have enough homework that ill be pretty busy. I think its obvious that I am probably the only ACTIVE member of the church on these forums, the only thing i can ask is that, honestly, there is so much distorted notions of the church out there, that you allow me the opportunity atleast to answer whatever claims are made.

Well, your job would be made easier if those making claims about the Mormon Church would post sources, at which point you'd need only refute them.

I'm not sure I'm buying those as impartial sources, particularly of historical Church doctrine.

He was asking for a fair represenation of our beliefs, if you want to know what a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ believes, ask him, if you want to know what a catholic believes, ask him, protestant? better ask that guy. Hindu? theres a Krishna Temple in Spanish Fork i can point you to.

Yeah, I think what Mcdermott is referring to is finding out what a church HISORICALLY believed. For example, ask a Catholic if they believe it is okay to help the Nazi's hide the extermination of 6 million Jews. The answer may surprise you!

In other news, quit being deliberately obtuse.

Sentry on October 2008

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

wrote:

When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'

I used to have this awesome flowchart of Mormon cosmology and afterlife theology. I copied it down from someone who worked at a Mormon daycare center.

Let's see if I remember.

â€¢*When your soul starts out, there's a 33% chance that it gets thrown into "outer darkness," with Satan. The rest of the souls are born onto earth.

â€¢ On earth, you can get saved by Jesus, so when you die, you go to one of three levels of heaven.

â€¢ The first level is called the terrestial sphere. It's kind of normal.

â€¢ The second level is called the telestial sphere. I think it's a little better than earth.

â€¢ The third, top, level is called the celestial sphere. This is the place to be. In fact, a small number of people in the celestial sphere get to go off to other planets, where they become Gods of their own world. Our God is actually one such example of this.

â€¢*Some people die without being saved, but they aren't immediately thrown into outer darkness. The people from the three spheres have a chance to a purgatory-like place and save them.

I was raised in a Mormon church til I was about 14 yrs old.
I donâ€™t remember anything about a 33% chance of failure for new souls
But one thing that was very prominent was the belief in baptism for the dead. Meaning people on earth can be baptized on behalf of those who died without being baptized themselves. Doing so saves them from the "Outer Darkness"
Thatâ€™s why Mormons are so big on genealogy
We used to make long roadtrips to the nearest Temple and have weekend long baptism sessions in these crazy big baptismal fountains sitting on top of 12 golden bull statues which represented the twelve tribes of Israel

I also remember an elder telling me that I was not to discuss what goes on in the temple with people outside the church.

meh.

The 33% are the ones who joined Lucifer in his war with God.

The whole "Outer Darkness" thing is misunderstood. It's not the same as Hell and not all sinners go there. It's for the worst, the unredeemable, the truly dead souls.

Whoever told you that got the Terrestrial and the Telestial kingdoms backwards.

I didn't hang around the Mormon church after age 17, so I didn't get to see the truly nutty parts of temple worship.

There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.

I don't think Mormon doctrines are significantly crazier than mainstream Christian beliefs. Are divine underpants really farther out there than a cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father that sacrifices himself to save humanity from his own judgment?

Mostly I judge Mormons as individual "asshole / not asshole", much the same way I judge other Christians. In general, "not asshole" wins out, but there's a Glenn Beck in every sect.

There's no point in you getting both of yourselves all worked up and ready to chart the undiscovered country, then having her flush crimson red, run to the bathroom, and spend twenty minutes straining and grunting and stressing out because you're all ready to deliver your package but there's a three inch thick Sunday paper clogging up the mail slot.

He was asking for a fair represenation of our beliefs, if you want to know what a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ believes, ask him, if you want to know what a catholic believes, ask him, protestant? better ask that guy. Hindu? theres a Krishna Temple in Spanish Fork i can point you to.

Yes, but at least some portion of this conversation has been about historical Mormon beliefs. Not what you believe, or what the Mormon down the street believes, but what a Mormon a hundred years ago believed.

And at least some of your responses have been, IIRC, an attempt to refute some of these historical beliefs.

Sorry, I'm not buying current Mormon-run websites as reliable sources of info regarding Church doctrine from a hundred years ago.

I get a little irritated when people believe that a bunch of ridiculously implausible stuff happening a long time ago is more reasonable than it happening more recently. That is, a burning bush carving commandments in stone tablets is reasonable, but reading stones through a lens is ridiculous?

I love how people mix up Mormonism with some of the other "fringier" sects of christianity?

No birthday parties? Nope that's the Jehovah's Witnesses
Can't take medication? Try again! Christian Scientists
Church is on Saturday? Nope! Seventh Day Adventist
Speaking in Tongues? You were looking for Pentecostals
Coffee and Tea are evil? Bingo! we have a winner!

On the subjct of the word of wisdom it includes, tobaco, alcohol, drugs, coffee and tea, and when i say tea i mean black, green nd iced tea. The main reason for tea is that it is a stimulant, as far as coffee, its not specificaly the caffine,point in case for me is that i know the comandment is true, so im willing to obey it. there are also lots of new studies showing the danger of coffee,(tanic acid).

I agree that caffeine is to be considered a drug. I also think that drugs are just fine (certainly a potential health risk, but beneficial in non-physical ways).

Here's what's so tricky about mormons for me: in my experience, they're really nice people, even though their beliefs aren't based in reality (kind of like Scientologists, but a dash less brainwashy). You've traded truth for happiness, and on some level, there's no way to argue with that.

I was raised in a Mormon family, did the whole Mormon thing until I was 15 or 16. In my experience, most Mormon's beef with caffeine isn't that it's a drug, it's that you can become addicted to it (though I guess there's some controversy on whether or not that's a physical addiction or not? I dunno, never cared enough to research it myself). I don't really remember the exact idea behind it, but it involved something along the lines of your body being a "temple of the Lord" so you should keep it as pure as possible, and having a dependency of some sort on something like caffeine is bad. I was told there were some Mormons that actually followed the whole no "hot drinks" thing, but I have never ever met a single Mormon who actually follows that (and very few who won't eat chocolate because it contains a tiny amount of caffeine).

The 33% of souls don't get to have bodies is right, though I dunno that it was a "33% chance." The idea is Satan had a plan of some sort for Earth (I think it was forcing them to obey God's commandments), 1/3 of the souls in heaven thought it was a good plan, they all get thrown out of heaven and don't get to have bodies like all the cool souls (AKA: the ones who liked Jesus's plan, which I was think was having free-will and choosing whether or not to obey God's commandments). That whole event was known as the "War in Heaven." End result is still the same, and really what Qingu said was pretty accurate.

And for the 3 levels of heaven , they're all a big step up from the Earth (the stars, moon, and sun are supposed to be something like a brightness to awesomeness ratio).

Really, I don't see how Mormons are any more ridiculous than any other Christian denominations. It's different than other Christian beliefs, but not anymore far-fetched.

I don't think Mormon doctrines are significantly crazier than mainstream Christian beliefs. Are divine underpants really farther out there than a cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father that sacrifices himself to save humanity from his own judgment?

Mostly I judge Mormons as individual "asshole / not asshole", much the same way I judge other Christians. In general, "not asshole" wins out, but there's a Glenn Beck in every sect.

As far as it goes, I have found Mormons far easier to get along with than any other faith that required prostelytising. Never met one that was not a nice guy(and I met a bunch in the bikeshop. You think those guys could have a car, they could cover more ground)

I was in a couple year realationship with a mormon years ago, met lots of fellow Mormons, most of whom were very wealthy, and very nice. Attended a baptism as well as a pagent of the Joseph Smith story and personally came to the conclusion that they were a common cult, mainly becuase of the importance placed on money going towards the church, and the undeniable infallibility of whoever holds the position of prophet.

Though to their credit I never really felt pressured to join but there was a palpable "holier than thou" atmosphere.

Things pretty much ended when she found http://www.exmormon.org/ in my browser history, I'd been doing some research and read a lot of the stories on that site which definitely influenced my opinion of the church. Not to mention some of the weirder things I saw first-hand that would be uncouth of me to list...

Magic underwear, "party like a rockstar until I go on a mission then it's all ok"-mentality among a large number of the youth and "no homers" style temples among them... but all religions are weird to me