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Hi mouser...

Hi all, I can relate some with many of you. I have been married 18 years and have a 5 year old son. Early on, the hubby ran the relationship with his anger and disapproval, I was young and hopeful, and walked on eggshells for a long time, my feelings slowly died, as did I inside. As life became stable, and I approached my mid thirties, we seemed better, he could laugh stuff off rather than get mad or pout, so I thought is would be safe to have kids. So for 5 years I have been a mom at home.

When my son was 9 mos. old, I was diagnosed with MS. Big surprise I would get a disease where my own immune system eats at my nerves. But that allowed me to address my anxiety and depression. With prescriptions and therapy, I have gotten much stronger. Of course, with the added stress of parenting, the hubby has reverted to trying to run things with his dissatisfaction.
Now I listen daily to criticisms, nags and complaints. If I tell him I don't like listening to his negativity, he says I don't communicate, I don't compliment or appreciate him. He says he is the only one who tries, who changes and who makes any effort. Any complaint of mine is met with accusations that I think I am perfect.

Obviously he is insecure, but I am not sure why. He is a big, tall man, hardworking and admired by his peers, but he has an intense need for perfection, he keeps score, finds fault and relishes the mistakes and misfortunes of others. I definitely feel like he is competing with me whether I play or not. Anyone would not appreciate living with the stress he puts out, but with my MS, it can have serious health effects. I have told him so, but again with the games of how only he tries, and I think I am perfect.

Dr. Phil says we teach people how to treat us. I definitely used to be a doormat, but have changed that. He still tries like heck to get me to cave into the old ways. I got him to go to counseling for a while, but money issues put that to a halt. And in the end, he only took from it how he thought I needed to change. He says he has no problems by himself, just with me.

Also, he has begun nagging our son to be perfect. To perform with being told once. He gets upset when my son chooses me for an activity. He questions my son as to why he wants mom and not dad. He seems to look to my son now to validate his worth. What a burden for a 5 year old! I have told him he needs to be the adult, but he pouts.

So, now what do I do? Do I leave? Does staying tell him his behavior is ok? Do I make a plan like the others on this board have done? I don't want to live like this. His moods suck the life out of me, but I hate to break up my son's home. He has many good qualities, hardworking, reliable, faithful. If there is something I can do to turn this around, I'd like to try. I know I can't make him change, can't make him get treatment for what seems to be a depression of his own, but I feel like I haven't tried everything. Dr. Phil says people leave to easily, so have I earned my way out yet? Shall I tell him to get help or I leave? Leave and tell him I'll come back if he gets help?

I am tired of the round and round. Any words of wisdom?

M.

Perfection is a FARCE! This burns me up -- because my Ex used to do this to my kids. It is like he wanted them to be the perfect mirror of HIM. How people viewed/judged his kids was a reflection on HIM. It was like they were his possessions, not human beings with thoughts and feelings.And I believe there is a balance between letting your children be who they are and training them to be socialable, functional people in society.

Perfection -- What a CROCK!

Here are some answers to your questions...

So, now what do I do? Educate your self about abuse especially verbal and emotional. There is ALOT you can do about it. Get MORE support. If you've lived with hubby for 18 years, then you have 18 years of brainwashing to undo. You need reality checks and options -- support helps with that. You need MORE THAN ONE source so that when one isn't available you move on to another. More support INCLUDE counseling, abuse support groups, family/friends, church/clergy and US or other online message boards. Know your LEGAL RESOURCES -- if you don't them, find out. HAVE A PLAN. Even if you choose not to leave, you STILL need a plan for your life. You need to figure out for yourself how you can STOP letting someone else dictate your mood and "suck the life out of you". You can stop that anytime you like (once you know how).

Do I leave? Not if you feel you haven't done EVERYTHING in your own heart that you know to repair the relationship/fix the problem.Because you have kids, you have to weigh heavily whether your DONE yet or not.The real question you have to ask yourself is:Can I continue to live this way if nothing changes?The answer to that is simple – it’s NO!

Does staying tell him his behavior is ok? Yes, it sure does.

Do I make a plan like the others on this board have done? Yes.Whether you go or stay, you NEED A PLAN.

Have I earned my way out yet? I have to answer this with another question.Have you reached the point where you KNOW in your heart of hearts that hubby is incapable/unwilling to be the kind of man/husband/father you and your son need?Have explored FULLY how YOU contribute to the problems in the relationship and have you fixed those?Once you have a pretty clear answer to those things, you have earned your way out of the relationship.

Shall I tell him to get help or I leave?Not only does HE need help, so do you.You both need SEPARATE counseling.Once you are both stronger and more willing to be the partners EACH OTHER needs then you may need counseling together.And if he won’t go, you go anyway.The reason for that is… because you will repeat these cycles in your next relationship if you don’t figure out how you stay a victim of his abuse.

Leave and tell him I'll come back if he gets help?No amount of manipulation or coercion is going to “make” him change.He has to WANT to do that himself.He is responsible for HIS happiness.You are responsible for YOURS.Do not allow him to shirk his responsibility to sluffing his unhappiness on to you.As partners, we ARE accountable to our partners for our consistently unpleasant, unproductive, unconstructive behavior.You are NOT to blame for HIS unhappiness/anger/general nastiness.HE is.The same goes for you.Your responsibility to get the help you need to STOP being victimized and that very well may mean leaving.

DO NOT CAVE! Require that he be a better person and if he is incapable/unwilling and you have done ALL you can to rectify your shortcomings, THEN it's time to leave.

Oh GAK...

last night we had a counseling session with the court appointed guy. he called my h in and talked to him alone for 45 minutes then talked to the two children together for about 8 minutes. we left there and went straight to my daughters cheer practice. my h was agitated and he was most unhappy when i asked him to take our son home that i would stay with our d. he phoned me and asked to speak to our d. i said i can't interupt her cheer practice so he asked me what she wouldllike from micky ds since i didn't go grocery shopping. i said there was only 42 dollars int he checking i could not go food shopping. an hour later when cheer was over and my d and i got home, she started to cry bc her food was cold (she is 10). i tried to calm her down and my h started saying that she was a ridiculous fool and so was i. she started to cry more and screamed that her dad hates her. he said if she wants to play mind games, so bei it. if she thinks he hates her well then that's how she feels and he can't do anything about it. i then stepped in and said to him that he was abusing her and i won't let her hear anymore of it and that he was abusing our son bc he was witnessing it. i told the kids to get in the car and we left. i went to mickey ds and called d.v. they wanted to put us in a shelter for the night. i called him and said i called dv and don't need to put the kids in that siutation at home, is it safe or do i need a police escort to take us home to get some stuff. he daid he didn't do anything wrong and didn't abuse his d and i had no reason not to feel safe. anywho, we went home and the kids slpe with me, they were still upset & frightened. today i called my therapist and left two messages with the therapist we saw last night and my lawyer won't be in until after 1:30. i am very upset and frightened. i don't know what to do................thanks, gak :(

I am sorry.

Calling his daughter names is verbal abuse. Neither you nor any of your children need that.

I can understand completely why your daughter feels like he hates her. He treats her just like he treats you. Personally, he lack of respect toward you and her leads me to believe that he has little respect for women as a whole -- but this is an assumption.

Just because hubby is in denial about his own behavior doesn't mean you need to be. If he can not be civil to EVERYONE ESPECIALLY THE KIDS until the frickin' 25th, then HE needs to leave.

I'm glad you called the therapist. I'm glad you called your attorney.

If you feel things are escalating, let EVERYONE know and take precautions. Any prudent parent would do that.

ALSO...

Calling his daughter names is verbal abuse. Neither you nor any of your children need that.

I can understand completely why your daughter feels like he hates her. He treats her just like he treats you. Personally, he lack of respect toward you and her leads me to believe that he has little respect for women as a whole -- but this is an assumption.

Just because hubby is in denial about his own behavior doesn't mean you need to be. If he can not be civil to EVERYONE ESPECIALLY THE KIDS until the frickin' 25th, then HE needs to leave.

I'm glad you called the therapist. I'm glad you called your attorney.

If you feel things are escalating, let EVERYONE know and take precautions. Any prudent parent would do that.

Hang in there hon. Q

Do NOT hesitate to stand up for your children if you feel they are being abused.

I can't tell you the number of times I didn't do this and wish I had. Eventually, when I got strong enough, I got better and better and standing up for my kids and as a result I also got better at standing up for me.

I got myself to the point that I REFUSED to let my own children be BULLIED by their Dad.

It is very normal for children to try and manipulate their environments/situations. It is one way they learn what the limits are. In light of the stressful situation THEIR DAD has put them in by remaining in the home while divorce proceedings are taking place, ANY child is going to be on the emotional side regardless of whether it's cold french fries or someone simply looking at the the wrong way.

Your child was NOT out of line for crying -- screaming maybe -- but given what ya'll have been going through for the last 12 years, I would even expect that.

So you know.... very often, people who label others' behavior are really expressing what THEY DO themselves.

When your hubby is telling you and your daughter that you are playing mindgames, that is called PROJECTION and it's more likely that DAD is the one playing mindgames not you guys, okay?

Ask YOUR counselor to explain what that is and what you can do about it.

follow up

J: I found Realgood2U but what I found had mostly to do with infidelity. Do you have a link? My primary concern now is for my son. I know that if left unchecked, my hubby’s antics will damage him. But my son also loves and dotes on his dad. Somehow I keep intervening and hoping he will get it, but I won’t wait forever.

Q: I do know perfection is a load. I was a high achiever in school, and had great anxiety over excellence. Over time and with maturity, I learned fear of failure doesn’t make you excellent, it holds you back. I don’t want my son burdened with those anxieties. When the hubby starts pulling his act, I do call him on it. He tells me I am undermining his parental authority and gets mad. I tell him browbeating isn’t proper parenting. I keep telling him, I am not just taking his crap, but he is on a self-pity trip when he isn’t crabbing.

I think I am fairly informed on what emotional/verbal abuse is, but more knowledge can’t hurt. I have some support, but yes, I could use more on this subject specifically. My sisters and friends do help. Otherwise, my family likes him; he is helpful and personable around others. He is much like his mother as are many of his siblings, having to run things, having to be right, to be better than others.

With the counseling I did receive, I learned about my own self destructive thinking patterns that allowed him to get to me in the first place, and I think my head is on pretty straight under the circumstances. This is just an exhausting struggle. His negativity and self-pity are tiring. At times I think he hears me and then we go backward. When he tries to push responsibility for his misery on me, I push it right back, but he is stubborn.

I have not yet sought any legal counsel, but should I decide it is time to go, I am not afraid to find it and act on my rights. As for other plans, I am working on a business I can do from home, one that uses my talents, and something I think I could really love doing. He of course, keeps suggesting low-wage entry-level type jobs. Heaven forbid I should ever be a success. He’s either discouraged or tolerated my educational pursuits.

Have I done everything? I am not sure. Some days I feel like he might be getting it, and others, we seem to be riding the same old merry-go-round of bull. Since I keep my emotional distance to protect myself, we can not be truly on the mend because he still plays to win, and will use any ammo I give him. I am just tired. The MS brings fatigue, so I don’t have the average fortitude. It is like new discipline for a child, it takes a long time for them to get you mean business, and that you won’t cave, but he got his way for a very long time. I just wish he’d grow up and get a friggin’ clue.

Thanks Q

So are you saying that you asked her to leave the home? Or has she moved out?

I would NOT just let go of this situation.

I'd be having a REALLY serious talk with your abusive daughter. I would make her understand that what she did is ASSAULT and BATTERY and she COULD go to JAIL! Heck maybe she ought to go to JAIL! I think the best thing for her may be natural consequences. It may be a great lesson for HER to live in her car. I might even go so far as to say the I would be willing to keep her son while she lives in the car if she can't be a civil, decent human being. I don't care how many emotional problems she has -- wrong is wrong.

Don't blame your self for HER actions. You and hubby did teach your kids to be victims/abusers, BUT they are ADULTS now and they know right from wrong.

If I were your grandsons' Dad, I wouldn't take her back either and her son may be better of with his Dad while his Mom is homeless. It's not like she can't come visit her son.

Sheesh -- unbelievable.

Try not to let the guilt eat away at you. You did better when you knew better. Your eldest is going to have some tough lessons to learn -- better that it happen now with family than with some stranger who could cause ALOT MORE harm to her or your grandchild.

I know it's tough. Q

I'm feeling lots better now!!! My younger daughter - S - just got back from the dentist & he was able to pull the teeth part way back to their original position. Good news - no fractures, the teeth WOULD HAVE been knocked out but the braces stopped that from happening. Bad news - we need to watch these teeth for the rest of her life - could need root canal on 3 of the teeth someday, the roots could begin to desolve!, or her teeth could turn black & need to be pulled. BUT these things may never happen. It's in God's hands now how well her body can heal. She is young & healthy - the trauma could have been worse.

A has moved out. I told her that she needed to leave by the end of the day. She actually went back to the marital house "temporarily". The soon-to-be-X seems to be on HER side in this. I guess she has manipulated the situation to her advantage once again! She is a master at that! Little G is HOME!!!!!!! I keep telling myself that it's better for him that he's at his own house. My house is a nice place to visit but it was never his home. I got the key to the house back too so there will be no surprise visits.

No charges were filed - not S's style (revenge). I DID tell A that things could have been SO much worse & that she could have been arrested! Nothing like a police record for violence to dampen the chances of custody!!!!!!!!!! She's SO lucky!

A is "angry"!!!!!!!!!!! Unbelieveable! SHE is angry! Just like the father - always placing blame on others!!! It was S's fault - she was asking for it for months!!!!!!!!! Sound familiar anyone??!!!

Bottom line - she is gone from my home now & S & I have peace once again. Hard when it's your own child that is becoming the new abuser in the family!!!!!! INCREDIBALLY HARD! She makes her own bed - just like her father did! Hope she heals before she's 57 like her father! And even HE still doesn't "get it"!!!

I know I did the right thing. Thanks for all your support!!! God Bless - LS >^.^<

Thanks so much!

Allowing abuse is never the answer. If your daughter that is having marital problems, knowing she has no other place to go, can't control herself long enough while staying at your house, no wonder she is having problems in her marriage.

The one that is married, has had her chance, and she blew it. The daughter that was struck, was struck in the safety of her own home. You need to get the abusive daughter out of your house, and out of harms way of your daughter that still resides in your home, even if that means living in her car. I am sure there are shelters somewhere in the area, and if she stayed a few nights in one of those, it may wake her up enough to calm her butt down, and act like a human being. There is NEVER a valid reason for violence, unless it is protecting your life, your families life, or your "castle. I don't think any of those apply in your case.

Your daughter has committed battery on her sister. This is not just sibling squabble at this point. If she is mature enough to assume the roll of spouse, sheshould be mature enough to keep her hands to herself. Do you really need the extra stress? I hope this helps

I know I did the right thing. She is gone now. I knew I could not ignore this, bury my head in the sand, retreat to my room & cry, or try to fix it!!!!!!!!! I tried for more than 20 years to fix her father with no success!!! I am not about to try to fix someone else! Separating the 2 was the first priority. I wanted my younger daughter to feel safe in her own home again. She deserves at least that much! A has picked on S since they were children - always threatening to hit her if she didn't do what she wanted. They are not children any longer! A is old enough to know better! You're right, she blew it! She had a wonderful chance to get back on her feet again here in her childhood home. Had me snowed into believing that she herself was abused & suicidal. Sad that she used my own past against me!!! She knows that I feel used by her - I told her several times that I felt she "played" me to get here. She was supposed to have a job BEFORE she moved in here but she didn't - lead me to believe she was at the end of her rope so I would let her come jobless! Borrowed the money for the 3 months she lived here for "board" from friends. Played games on the computer all day instead of properly taking care of the 3 year old OR looking for a job!!!

I also tried to teach her to keep her hands to herself since she could talk!!!!!!!! At 22, it's obvious that I didn't succeed!!

I also think that her telling me she would have to live in her car was just another play for sympathy!

I'm a survivor & still trying to get my life back on track - NO - I don't need the added stress & drama!!! Had enough of that to last a lifetime!!! Doing well otherwise.

Any 2 cents are pennies from heaven

Does he hear me? Well, sometimes I think it is better. He was awful before counseling, outright mean, venomous even. That is when I told him I'd leave before I allowed him to make sick. He challenged it and kept insisting on his way, yammering on and on. I told him then that I couldn't take it and maybe we needed to separate. I was serious and I think he finally got it a little. He has mellowed since then. Now, rather than using anger, he pouts. I guess it's anything to be the center of attention. Any emotion to run the show. As long as he is center I guess it eases his insecurities. Gads, does he ever hate it when I tell him these things. You know, the "You think you can analyze me, you think you are so smart." Well, I couldn't be right because then I would 'win' wouldn't I? Can't have that. He is not one to apologize, he just behaves better the next day and for a while.

I guess I can work on it a bit longer. What are the books that would teach me how to respond to him? Perhaps I am already doing it, I'm not sure.

update

last night, my son had hockey and my daughter had cheerleading, both at the same time. They both said to me that they didn't want their dad taking them home. I called a friend that has a daughter whom cheers and asked her to take and pick up my daughter from cheer so I would take my son to hockey then get my daughter after all the practices at her house. Everyone was fine with this except................my h! He phoned me while I was in the car in between dropping my d off and getting my son to practice. He wanted to know which child to pick up, i said neither it was covered and he hung up on me. He showed up at the ice rink and was very hostile to me. He said I had NO RIGHT to do what i did the night before and i also had no right to make arrangements for someone else to pick up his daughter without asking him first! I said that i did have that right and i am sorry he feels that way and tried to walk away from him. He kept at me at said he was going to go get his d. i told him it was not a good idea and he would cause a scene bc she is expecting to go home with friends and doesn't want to go with him. I called my lawyer and left a message about what transpired and i called my friend to let her know. My friend told the head cheer and head football coaches about what was up. They were prepared to call the police bc i signed the forms and i gave permission for my friend to take my d home. My son came off the ice early bc of an injury so we were able to go to cheer early and get my d. But h followed and he parked beside me and walked onto the field with me and our son. he stood by me like i couldn't get 5 feet away from him. then i brought both kids home and he followed us home. I AM SCARED OF HIS BULLYING! I am going to call everyone again today and let them know how bizarre he is. thanks again for listening to me... oh i called dv yesterday to check in and there is a support group that meets thursday nights. If I can find some fiends to take my kids that night and I'll go!!!

It never fails...

I'm feeling lots better now!!! My younger daughter - S - just got back from the dentist & he was able to pull the teeth part way back to their original position. Good news - no fractures, the teeth WOULD HAVE been knocked out but the braces stopped that from happening. Bad news - we need to watch these teeth for the rest of her life - could need root canal on 3 of the teeth someday, the roots could begin to desolve!, or her teeth could turn black & need to be pulled. BUT these things may never happen. It's in God's hands now how well her body can heal. She is young & healthy - the trauma could have been worse.

A has moved out. I told her that she needed to leave by the end of the day. She actually went back to the marital house "temporarily". The soon-to-be-X seems to be on HER side in this. I guess she has manipulated the situation to her advantage once again! She is a master at that! Little G is HOME!!!!!!! I keep telling myself that it's better for him that he's at his own house. My house is a nice place to visit but it was never his home. I got the key to the house back too so there will be no surprise visits.

No charges were filed - not S's style (revenge). I DID tell A that things could have been SO much worse & that she could have been arrested! Nothing like a police record for violence to dampen the chances of custody!!!!!!!!!! She's SO lucky!

A is "angry"!!!!!!!!!!! Unbelieveable! SHE is angry! Just like the father - always placing blame on others!!! It was S's fault - she was asking for it for months!!!!!!!!! Sound familiar anyone??!!!

Bottom line - she is gone from my home now & S & I have peace once again. Hard when it's your own child that is becoming the new abuser in the family!!!!!! INCREDIBALLY HARD! She makes her own bed - just like her father did! Hope she heals before she's 57 like her father! And even HE still doesn't "get it"!!!

I know I did the right thing. Thanks for all your support!!! God Bless - LS >.<

When you set the right boundary and deal with toxic folks in healthy ways, you end up KNOWING you did the right thing.

I am not surprised one bit that your eldest is angry -- her sense of self-entitlement is LARGE.

Trust that she may learn her lessons -- or not.

But the key here is... that YOU'VE learned YOURS.

The best thing for manipulative/abusive people is for YOU to set YOUR boundaries and protect them.

You did that. I'm proud of you! But I know it is not what you want for your child or your grandchild.

Hi GAK...

last night, my son had hockey and my daughter had cheerleading, both at the same time. They both said to me that they didn't want their dad taking them home. I called a friend that has a daughter whom cheers and asked her to take and pick up my daughter from cheer so I would take my son to hockey then get my daughter after all the practices at her house. Everyone was fine with this except................my h! He phoned me while I was in the car in between dropping my d off and getting my son to practice. He wanted to know which child to pick up, i said neither it was covered and he hung up on me. He showed up at the ice rink and was very hostile to me. He said I had NO RIGHT to do what i did the night before and i also had no right to make arrangements for someone else to pick up his daughter without asking him first! I said that i did have that right and i am sorry he feels that way and tried to walk away from him. He kept at me at said he was going to go get his d. i told him it was not a good idea and he would cause a scene bc she is expecting to go home with friends and doesn't want to go with him. I called my lawyer and left a message about what transpired and i called my friend to let her know. My friend told the head cheer and head football coaches about what was up. They were prepared to call the police bc i signed the forms and i gave permission for my friend to take my d home. My son came off the ice early bc of an injury so we were able to go to cheer early and get my d. But h followed and he parked beside me and walked onto the field with me and our son. he stood by me like i couldn't get 5 feet away from him. then i brought both kids home and he followed us home. I AM SCARED OF HIS BULLYING! I am going to call everyone again today and let them know how bizarre he is. thanks again for listening to me... oh i called dv yesterday to check in and there is a support group that meets thursday nights. If I can find some fiends to take my kids that night and I'll go!!!

You had EVERY RIGHT to PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN from his OUTRAGEOUS OUTBURSTS!

EVERY RIGHT! Do NOT listen to him. Glad you didn't.

There is NOTHING more powerful than a mother protecting her babies.

BRAVO on trying to get more support. I absolutely believe you need MORE support. Sometimes support groups will have sitters to watch the kids. So if you get the chance to go, ask about that.

He IS a bully -- that's a fact.

But remember that deep-down bully's function from a place a FEAR. While you are afraid of his abuse, he is also afraid of losing his kids and so he is intensifying his aggression to you in line. The best thing you can do is... do what YOU FEEL is the right thing for your children.

Do NOT be afraid to call the police if you get really scared. Everytime I had to call them, like when my Ex showed up at our house DRUNK and terrorized my sitter -- even though I had an order of protection, they were VERY understanding and helpful. It might also be a good idea to work out a safety word with friends/family so that they know to call the police for you and/or work out ahead of time for a short term place to stay if you get so scared you can't stay in the home. If you do that, go ahead and a pack an overnight bag just in case. Better to have a plan to fall back on than none.

I think you have handled this whole situation MARVELOUSLY! You held firm on your boundaries and removed yourself from the conversation as much as you possibly could-- BRAVO!!!

So you know... legally the police could not have kept the kids' Dad from picking up his children. So the sooner you guys get a visitation agreement the sooner all this mess will ease. I know you are probably counting the days before this mess gets over with.

I don't know how long y'all's cheer/sports practices are but I would not hesitate to ask friends/family to pitch in with picking up your son/daughter until your hearing. It makes perfect sense to keep the kids away from any scenes hubby may cause. The worst that can happen is they say No -- odds are that won't happen.

I am here to listen ANYTIME -- oh, and before I forget, click on my qqqhhh link and jot down my email addy so you have it. I generally read email about every other day since we can't read it at work anymore but I DO read it and I WILL respond.