CSX and GWE bugfixes

New features and content for CSX and GWE

New routes entirely

Since it was brought up recently that DTG isn't going to be focusing on the much asked about passenger information displays, as they don't deem that important this early on, that made me wonder, what does the community think is important this early on? As the customers, what we want is pretty important to what we will buy, and what we will buy is pretty important to what DTG wants to work on.

So, what do you think?
Are the long promised editors, multiplayer, and other core game enhancements the most important thing for giving TSW a kickstart of content and activity while it is still young?

Should CSX and GWE have the exterminator called to remove all these bugs since they are the only routes around this early on, and the better they are, the better TSW is?

Is it best for TSW to stick to CSX and GWE, but by adding new features, like on the topic of the passenger information displays and ATP, as well as new content from route extensions, trains, and scenarios?

Or is the best direction for TSW to just let go of the current routes, and move on to new routes (presumably what DTG is doing, and has done for the last 10 years)?

For now I'm mostly concerned about TSW not as a player (I can tolerate some bugs and not really in a hurry to see perfect game), but as a software developer too familiar with this development path that seems to be taken by DTG. Now they're laying foundation, and quite ambitious at that, for all potential future awesomeness. Graphics and physics engine, scripting system, these are the base for everything that comes after. And it is absolutely crucial not to cut corners while developing this. TSW isn't some one-off game, which works, releases and forgotten after a year. For a coming decade or more new content will be based on this core tech, new hardware will need to be supported, new software accommodated. For that to be possible, core of the game should be well thought-out, maintainable and, simply put, heavily invested in. Rushed release schedule leads to shitty unmaintainable code riddled with workarounds and "Nah, works for now" solutions. If you do this to your core code, you're *****d:
1) The more is based on it (DLC in this case), the more you will be breaking every time trying to fix your early hackwork in the core
2) After product is formally released and shipped you will have a reeeeeeally hard time trying to justify to the management necessity to invest any more time to fix a product that arguably "works" already. Depends on company of course, but DTG's reviews not doing them any favors here.
3) If you're really concerned developer or team leader, you can try and do fixes for old shortcomings while developing new features, but only to an extent. So I speculate that we'll see some bugfixing done on Sand Patch with the release of GP-40 in this manner, for instance.

This is all just a speculation of course and I don't have any insider knowledge here, but TSW development history for now bides with this pet theory of mine very well.

Since it was brought up recently that DTG isn't going to be focusing on the much asked about passenger information displays, as they don't deem that important this early on, that made me wonder, what does the community think is important this early on? As the customers, what we want is pretty important to what we will buy, and what we will buy is pretty important to what DTG wants to work on.

So, what do you think?
Are the long promised editors, multiplayer, and other core game enhancements the most important thing for giving TSW a kickstart of content and activity while it is still young?

Should CSX and GWE have the exterminator called to remove all these bugs since they are the only routes around this early on, and the better they are, the better TSW is?

Is it best for TSW to stick to CSX and GWE, but by adding new features, like on the topic of the passenger information displays and ATP, as well as new content from route extensions, trains, and scenarios?

Or is the best direction for TSW to just let go of the current routes, and move on to new routes (presumably what DTG is doing, and has done for the last 10 years)?

Exactly, that is why I'm doing this here. For our purposes, and DTG's purposes. Plus, doing it as a poll is more fair than trying to call out DTG on what they are doing as just one person. Numbers say a lot, so hopefully the numbers matter, even if the words don't.

I voted the second option and really hope they could do in addition some kind of dev diarys like scs or taleworlds are doing it once in a week or two to update us about their current Priorities and progressions.

Thanks for your reply Jay. Since I have you "on the line", I'd like to know if you (Dovetail) intend to improve the driving part, physics (brake system, wheelslip, acceleration etc.). Might be considered like a bug fix... maybe?

I definitely think development is too closed off - it might be because im used to different things, like Squad has recaps - but this development teams seems very shut off from the community, and all I see Jay posting is "we're working on it", I wish the team were more open and did say devblogs or recaps, just something to show us what theyre up too......as it stands it feels very us VS them.

im my opinion - bug fixes (REVERT the CSX graphical changes for high end systems and the pool table green pasted everywhere) > new routes/locos to keep it fresh

Thanks for your reply Jay. Since I have you "on the line", I'd like to know if you (Dovetail) intend to improve the driving part, physics (brake system, wheelslip, acceleration etc.). Might be considered like a bug fix... maybe?

Cheers

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Constantly working away at stuff, especially issues raised by the community.

Can't give firm details on exactly what we're working on right now (in case it doesn't make it into the next update) but I can say we are aware of and looking into a lot of this stuff.

I'm in favor of editing, especially scenario/session writing; and since this isn't among the specific (and somewhat limited) offered options, let me throw in switching scenarios/sessions on CSX, some of which is already available with GWE.

Every game has that issue of WIP features staying WIP too long to make it to release. This is not a case of "that other game's method won't work because TS is different," other games have the same things to worry about. I just think that other game devs aren't so scared of saying they are working on something as DTG is, which is why they still make dev updates.

Factorio, the great example through all of this, handled some feature delays quite well. They make next update roadmaps, over time say "hey look at this thing (something on the to-do list) we are working on" and then before the update outline what from the roadmap is actually in the update (probably what DTG should do, instead of taking the attitude of "if we say it months before the next update it'll have to go in to the update"), sometimes saying "this thing we covered earlier had to be pushed back" even if the thing in question is the update itself.

And there are no huge mobs of angry people over delayed features because all the in depth communication leads to everyone not only knowing what is going on, but understanding what is going on and why. With DTG's near to 0 communication, nobody knows what is happening or why it is happening, so there is 0 understanding, which just means angry mobs can gather and have no reason not to.

And if trying to avoid commitment to features in order to avoid letting people down is your only excuse for not communicating...that's sad. Avoiding commitment is the one sure way to get nowhere in life, while part having commitment involves the will to accept that sometimes people get let down (but most of the time, commitment raises everything up!).
[And maybe that's a bit too philosophical, but it is true.]

Besides, what DTG is doing now is probably making people more upset than otherwise. Because right now some person can assume anything: like "new paint jobs will come in the next update" because 'well, DTG has never said otherwise.' Then said person gets all angry when the paint jobs don't come, because as far as they cared, they thought it was going to happen.

Compare that to DTG saying "new paintjobs are coming in the next update" and then a week before the update saying "sorry, the paint jobs won't make it and here's why." [explaining why is super important to not making people upset!!] (and don't do this in the release notes of the update-waiting until the update is released to say that is a sure way to upset people)
With official DTG statements on it, and an actual explanation, everyone will be understanding, and as such, will have many reasons to not form an angry mob.

Maybe we need another poll to see if we think DTG should communicate? But I think the results are already obvious.

DTG are very poor at communicating with their players, and all we get is the occasional “We’re working on it.”

What exactly are you working on? It would be useful to tell us what the developers are working on. As previously mentioned, it is silly to say you don’t want to tell us anything in case it doesn’t make it to the next update. But how do we even know what is coming in the next update if you don’t tell us?

All games have bugs and obstacles to avoid, and these are usually resolved by updates were the developers actually keep people informed as to what is being done so there’s no excuse there.

All we’re asking is to stop being left in the dark and to get some news of what is being done, regardless of how long the update may take.

I fully agree with what has been posted before. It would be nice to know what the developers are working on, what is being prioritised and what is not, and what we can expect in general. I'm fine if a certain feature/bugfix is pulled from a release at the last minute, I know that's what happens at times and if you communicate well, people will certainly understand it.

Not communicating at all, however, is a completely different matter. "We're working on it" is way too vague of a statement... for all I know, you guys could be partying on the Bahama's (not that anything's wrong with that ).

Great write-up, pschlik!
Regarding communication though. Being reasonable and communicative works only with reasonable and communicative people, which really care about development process and future of this product. Any delay or under-delivery, and steam forums and facebook will again be full of passersby throwing "BUT MAH UPDATE!!" temper tantrums, regardless of how well it'd be explained and justified.

I agree DTG gives to less information to us. I spend a lot of time in TSW (about 200hours in CSX) and give bug reports and content suggestions feedback to DTG with support tickets, in the steam forums and here.

But I don't know if the bugs I report will ever be fixed, or do they try to fix them, is it WIP? Nobody knows.
Bug report tickets at kayako are getting closed without knowing will DTG fix them or ignore them? Most of my reported bugs there are still in the game. So i stopped reporting bugs there.
I will just post my bugs in my buglists in this forum and update them, if the developers looking into that lists even if I update it with new bugs, I don't know.

After every update I try to test everything again, if the bugs are solved from my long buglist or if there are new bugs etc., this is taking really a lot of time.
I do this to help DTG make this a really good and allmost bugfree Train Simulator but only getting a "we will pass this to the developers" and then you don't hear anything about it what happend to it is just a bit frustrating.

With the developers dairies before the TSW beta I really thought DTG changed their communication style with the community to show what are is worked on, what bugs to resolve, what features are planed, but sadly that didn't last long.
Now we are back to the top secret development where no or very spare informations are given to the community.
I just say a few keywords like scenario/content editor, steam workshop, multiplayer, Xbox version, next (German?) DLC, head bob (feature was promised for TSW release). I dont want release dates, just what is going on there, what features are planed with them. We know nothing about it.
And it's also pretty quiet in this forums from DTG as this is the official place where to communicate with the community.

Great write-up, pschlik!
Regarding communication though. Being reasonable and communicative works only with reasonable and communicative people, which really care about development process and future of this product. Any delay or under-delivery, and steam forums and facebook will again be full of passersby throwing "BUT MAH UPDATE!!" temper tantrums, regardless of how well it'd be explained and justified.

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That's true; a lot people who frequent the Steam forums are either very combative or cynical in the extreme. It doesn't make for a comfortable environment.

However, we seem to have a reasonable and communicative group here. So far we've been civil and amicable and as these are the official forums for TSW then they could focus that communication here.

It's a shame it wasn't possible to assign priorities to the options. I voted for option 2 for the same reasons that Jef-F outlined in his super post - namely that what's currently there will be the foundation of all future DLC and it's vital to get this right now.

I do really believe that option 1 should then be next in priority as we need the editor(s) to be available. Nice idea though services are they can become a bit repetitive after a while and like many I've finished the scenarios. A scenario editor would keep up people's interest in TSW whilst we await the next route.

DTG need to cover their core markets and get more dosh so option 4 needs to be third priority. Hopefully this would allow electric locomotives to be covered. This leaves option 3 as priority four.

I do agree that DTG should seriously think about releasing some sort of roadmap. In retrospect it's a great shame that TSW wasn't released as early access similar to FSW as I believe DTG underestimated the amount of work still outstanding but what's done is done. Engagement levels are much higher in FSW as well.

I do understand that their situations are different - FSW is taking an existing engine and either improving or replacing different sub-systems whereas TSW is trying to get an evolving engine to carry out complex operations in a performant manner.

FSW users have extensive experience with the engine being used and are also pretty aware of its limitations so they are more understanding when updates have hiccups. TSW users OTOH are used to the TSxx engine as well as third party train products and expect TSW to be a super, enhanced TSxx equivalent whilst still delivering TSxx performance out of the box . They also have experience of DTG's past shortcomings in addressing bugs. Consequently they are less forgiving when DTG gets it wrong or is perceived to be underdelivering.

Hearing you loud and clear regarding communication, I will do my best to step it up and glean as much information possible from the team in regards to what we are working on.

However, for clarity. Being unable to deliver on promises (which is how people will see it if we confirm we are working on something and ultimately it doesn't make the cut) invites hostility, not just within our community but within the gaming/hobbyist community as a whole. Totally understandable given all of our fans are here because they are passionate about the product and the subject matter itself, but causing disappointment/outrage is something we are keen to avoid.

However, for clarity. Being unable to deliver on promises (which is how people will see it if we confirm we are working on something and ultimately it doesn't make the cut) invites hostility, not just within our community but within the gaming/hobbyist community as a whole. Totally understandable given all of our fans are here because they are passionate about the product and the subject matter itself, but causing disappointment/outrage is something we are keen to avoid.

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I fully understand your position, having to disappoint people is never fun. However, if you communicate openly and frequently about why some things get pulled, people are more likely to understand and forgive you.

Although that might be more likely to happen here than on the Steam forums, so maybe you could consider giving more details here while keeping your statements on Steam a bit shorter.

Problem is, things are already full of chaos on Steam and social media. Better communication is only going to anger the kind of people that are already angry. Yes, all that bunch is no fun to be around, and is no fun to anger, I get that, but that is what is happening right now anyway. I know there are some good people in there that wouldn't be so upset if there was communication, but I couldn't give you anyone who would be less happy if there was more communication.

But I agree with Alex. Maybe the solution is to keep the in depth news and feedback gathering to less chaotic, more open places like the official channels-this forum included. It does sound odd to suggest that this forum should be a place of 'secret' news considering it is open to join, but I'm not seeing trouble causers here. Looks like something is keeping them away.

Not a whole lot I can add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. I have enjoyed my time with TSW and will gladly continue to support it as much as I can.

That being said I would love to see focus on more content for the game. I have played about 40 hours of TSW and I feel like I have exhausted myself of things to do within the game. I have completed all the scenarios and tutorials as well as completing a hand full of services. I get way more enjoyment out of the scenarios personally as I don't get all that much of a sense of accomplishment out of the services. I loved the scenarios for GWR as they each had something unique about them you can't get doing a standard service.

I have almost completely stopped playing TSW because of this while I wait for additional content. When the GP40-2 arrives I will surely be back in the game at least for a little bit and I hope some more scenarios come with it! I really do enjoy this game and I am looking forward to what future content is brought to it.

It takes a lot of time to develop new content, so it would be nice for us modders and potential third party developers to get started as soon as possible. I'll admit I'm really eager for more routes to play with too, so that's second on my list

for me it would have to be CSX AND GWE. it needs an exterminator to fix all the bugs. I can't do a single scenario with out a CTD. and if trying to do the tutorials to drives trains I can get 2 tutorials completed then on the third tutorial guess what that's right another CTD. I would be more focused on fixing what's broken then moving on to adding more content with even more bug then have to spend time fixing those as well. so I don't get the idea here? they know the base game has bugs. so why make DLC that has more bugs that your employees now have to spend more time to fix those as well? and then they wonder why they are getting nothing buy negative reviews right now? I want to use what I paid for. and not being able to do that yes I get upset. it is like going to the movies and paying 20 dollars to see a bad movie would you not be upset about that and want your money back?

well lets see as far as my pc specs and the game specs go. here what I have.
OS windows 7 64bit
I have 8 gigs of ram
as for storage I have a 1TB hard drive.
direct x is updated to the latest version
I have a GTX950 2 GIG GPU.
and a 3.10 G.H.Z processor.
so meeting the speciation's for this simulator is not the problem. it's all the bugs the simulator has. the textures going from dark to bright then flashing like a camera flash. the inability to finish scenarios. the broken achievements and scenarios and tutorials. does it still sound like a pc issue?

The texture issue on CSX is a noted bug, I'll give you that, and there has been reports of achievements either not unlocking or unlocking prematurely but you're the first person on these forums that has stated every scenario is crashing for them.

well the ones I know of right now are. a helping hand. and the GP40-2 power line scenario. as far as crashing tutorials I can complete the introductory tutorial yard switching and then when I go to use the turn table tutorial I get on the table and go to move the locomotive and get a crash there. then I have to start all over again.

Well I'm hoping one of the dev's will see this and be able to help you specifically but in the meantime you might try opening your Nvidia control panel and setting PhysX to use the GPU. I say that because the issue with the turntable sounds like a physics issue but I could be wrong.

Many games use PhysX, but only its CPU subset and that option in control panel has no effect on them, including CSX:HH.
Installing PhysX software separately isn't required either, it usually comes bundled with the game (as it is with CSX:HH)

Not absolutely sure, but it's very likely. You can even enable PhysX status display and it will show that it runs on CPU in game regardless of this setting. Will be glad to hear informed opinion from devs.

I remember this whole PhysX debacle being big back in the public beta (almost a year ago!) and this Pentacone dude (who bugs me anyway due to his horrid writing style with wayy too much punctuation) was fully convinced that TSW was built entirely on PhysX and that’s why it does bad on AMD stuff because it’s DTG sticking with Nvidia who is trying to make games not run well on other GPUs...blah blah blah. DTG’s response to this bickering was that literally the only thing that used PhysX are hoses. Notably the fuel pump hose, which was crashing people back in the beta due to it using PhysX. However, most physics don’t use PhysX-but those refuelling hoses did once cause crashes, so it is not that far fetched that PhysX is the problem. And could we please do this in another thread?