On 22/11/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Here are my thoughts on all the bolt options for Taipan>>Bash in carrots - super low visual impact and extremely amusing in the>response they extract from visiting yanks and euros. Somewhat disturbing>safety wise given the rather large bolt spacings.

Also problematic in the quality of placement and extremely variable longevity.

>>Non-stainless expansions - Probably fine safety wise, but incredibly annoying>to replace 20yrs down the track. As Neil said, once the sleeve rusts through>they probably need to be drilled out resulting in a double hole which can>only be reused for a glue in. Surely no one thinks its a good idea to place>anything other than stainless these days?

Agree.

>>Stainless full sleeve expansions - My preferred choice in hard rock, more>reliable than trubolts and easy to replace. Apparently gramps rock isn't>strong enough to be sure that they'll be good long term (this obviously>goes for the non-stainless ones too)>

Replacement in the same hole with the same size can be a problem where the initial compression zone will not allow 'take up' on the sleeve with the new compression zone being shallower. Often the hole needs to be drilled out and the bolt size increased to ensure longevity.

>U's - Can be horribly ugly, require an extra hole. I'll take Sliamese's>word that extraction and replacement at a later date can be done without>damaging the rock.

Agree.

>>Rings - Require a notch to be drilled, seriously difficult to remove and>replace without damaging the rock>

Agree, though with an adequate stock bar size (10-12mm) these may have the greatest longevity, particularly if they are case hardened.

>Tru bolts - fuching annoying devices which seem really good, but in fact>have safety problems, durability problems, and are almost impossible to>extract and replace. I don't like these things at all, and believe that>future generations will curse the developers currently placing them.>

Suitable in some locations, not in others.

>Glue in stainless machine bolt with fixed hanger - This would be my suggestion>for Serpentine. Replace the hanger equipped bash ins with hanger equipped>glue ins, reuse the sweet HB stamped hangers (which are still in great>nick). Doesn't require extra drilling, can be twisted out of the glue when>replacement is next due.

This would be a reasonable compromise.

With regards to leaver biners and rapping off if needed. On Serpentine you can get to the top and clean the gear. If you are making the effort to get on the route, work it etc getting to the top to get additional gear off should not be an issue. Though these things may be irritating, they are part of the skills needed to be able to climb safely. Unclipping a leaver biner and putting on a draw takes less time and effort than placing a wire or a cam so is not really an issue.

On 18/11/2013 sliamese wrote:>Ill happily replace shit bolts without permission after someone showed>zero respect to the rock in the first place by placing shitty, sub standard>mild steel dynabolts or carrots. But please please dont fuch up a classic>with glue smears and worms everywhere! >>As for replacing u's? Easier and more consistent than hangers. No heat>required, bolt cutters to snip the apex, now a wrench can twist the two>J legs and vice grips wiggle em out. Drill out the two holes and re-use>both. This would be after about 50 years with current good glues i reckon,>not chemset 101!!

Have you guys had issues with this 101 glue in Tasmania? Im curious...

After reading this thread I went to Hillwood yesterday to check on the carrot bolts that were placed in about 10 routes in 1997 in the first few months of development.

They were 5/8 (about 9.7mm) 316 stainless machine bolts hammered into a 9mm hole to a depth of 75mm with a fixed hanger. The rock is basalt. A shifter would not rotate the bolts at all. A hefty crowbar between the hanger and the rock would not budge it. No amount of bashing the shit out of it would loosen it. You would need some sort of extraction device or just a hacksaw to remove them.

There was one particularly ugly one I was worried about because I hadn't drilled the hole deep enough and it was protruding about 5mm and not flush against the hanger and the rock, and I'd mangled the head by smashing it with the hammer.
Once again it passed the crowbar/shifter test, but I placed a new bolt beside it anyway. In that rock, I'm convinced they are bombproof and there is no need to replace them. Yes its old technology and I haven't placed any carrots since 1997, but if they are solid, why go to the time and expense to replace them.
As someone said on the thread, its more or less a circular piton and people have been falling on rusty 30 year old pitons at Arapiles for years (Snowblind, and that 23 of Tempests in Yesterday gully - Lunatic?), and no-one is replacing those.

Same with a handful of expansion bolts at Hillwood that came loose and pulled out. I was shown one of the offending bolts and placed it in the kerb outside my house, and tried to pull it out with a car. The bolt didn't budge, but the climbing rope snapped. So any loose expansion bolts simply need to be tightened, and if tightening some bolts every 10 years is the price to pay for using that type of bolt then fine.

But Sliamese and others down here are talking about wholesale re-equipping of routes at Hillwood to bring them into line with modern practice. I think you'd be wasting your time and money Simon. If the bolt is solid then leave it alone.
The carrots at Hillwood are not time bombs about to fail and hurt someone, and neither are the expansion bolts. They have passed the Subaru test, the crowbar/shifter test and the bash the shit out of it test.
I think it should be approached on a bolt by bolt case - that if a suspect bolt is discovered, then replace it.

On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:>As someone said on the thread, its more or less a circular piton and people>have been falling on rusty 30 year old pitons at Arapiles for years (Snowblind,>and that 23 of Tempests in Yesterday gully - Lunatic?), and no-one is replacing>those.

Well Snowblind is a bad example because the piton did fall out (with the rock) and someone decked badly breaking leg/s. Then it was replaced with a ringbolt, that then that got chopped and another piton got placed in a nearby crack.

>Same with a handful of expansion bolts at Hillwood that came loose and>pulled out. I was shown one of the offending bolts and placed it in the>kerb outside my house, and tried to pull it out with a car. The bolt didn't>budge, but the climbing rope snapped. So any loose expansion bolts simply>need to be tightened, and if tightening some bolts every 10 years is the>price to pay for using that type of bolt then fine.

I agree, expansions should be totally fine at a place like Hillwood - bomber rock, mostly vertical and with low traffic. Someone just needs to keep an eye out for spinners and re-tighten them. Did they actually "fall out" or did someone wiggle them out with their fingers when they got loose? Because I would be very surprised if they fell out! Tests that Malcom did in the 90s showed that a finger tight dynabolt in good rock will still hold a large fall. In fact, with only the last few centimetres of the bolt in the rock it still held a huge amount. The biggest problem is the nut actually loosening so much it falls off. That happens quite a bit - in fact this happened recently to anchors bolts on a route of mine I did in the early 90s.

>The carrots at Hillwood are not time bombs about to fail and hurt someone,>and neither are the expansion bolts. They have passed the Subaru test,>the crowbar/shifter test and the bash the shit out of it test. >I think it should be approached on a bolt by bolt case - that if a suspect>bolt is discovered, then replace it.

I'm just interested how the carrot bolt in question (the one I pulled from After Midnight) passed Malcolm's meticulous installation. Surely if it felt flimsy on the way in he would have replaced it? It held a big fall previously (mine!) - but why did it suddenly fail?

On 27/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>The biggest problem is the nut actually loosening so much it falls off. That happens quite a bit - in fact this happened recently to anchors bolts on a route of mine I did in the early 90s.>
Would a spot of Loctite on the thread at time of installation fix that?

On 27/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 27/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>The biggest problem is the nut actually loosening so much it falls off.>That happens quite a bit - in fact this happened recently to anchors bolts>on a route of mine I did in the early 90s.>>>Would a spot of Loctite on the thread at time of installation fix that?

I'm undecided about Loctite. Sometimes a bolt gets loose because it gets pulled out of the hole a touch after extensive usage (rock has to be soft for this to happen generally as it collapses). So you would end up with a spinning hanger and loose bolt but not able to retighten it. Would it also make it impossible to undo the nut when it gets time to replace it? And how do you Loctite a flush head dynabolt? Put the Loctite inside the hole on the expansion cone??

On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:>As someone said on the thread, its more or less a circular piton and people>have been falling on rusty 30 year old pitons at Arapiles for years (Snowblind,>and that 23 of Tempests in Yesterday gully - Lunatic?), and no-one is replacing>those. >
Tastrad really needs to get his facts right before making rubbish claims.
Pitons at Araps have been falling out and being pulled out for longer than 30 years yet some people still insist that they not be replaced by bolts (but only on some climbs). It's just ridiculous because they're just not reliable and they cannot be reliably tested except with a hammer.
I think the peg on Lunatic was replaced by a bolt years ago but I may be wrong.

On 27/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>I'm undecided about Loctite. Sometimes a bolt gets loose because it gets>pulled out of the hole a touch after extensive usage (rock has to be soft>for this to happen generally as it collapses). So you would end up with>a spinning hanger and loose bolt but not able to retighten it. Would it>also make it impossible to undo the nut when it gets time to replace it?>And how do you Loctite a flush head dynabolt? Put the Loctite inside the>hole on the expansion cone??

I was only referring to the loose nut aspect, and wouldn't be putting loctite in the internal workings of a dynabolt as it would make it difficult to nip them up tighter in the future if they needed it.
It comes in various strengths from 'mild-fixing' applications through to 'permanent-fixing' applications, which require very high strength torque to break the bond.
It is fast setting (though full strength takes 24 hrs?), and is temperature resistant, with a single drop on the nut thread before doing it up, being sufficient for most applications.

The lighter strength versions would still enable the nut to be removed if ever required.

On 27/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>On 27/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>And how do you Loctite a flush head dynabolt? Put the Loctite inside the>>hole on the expansion cone??>>I was only referring to the loose nut aspect, and wouldn't be putting loctite in the internal workings of a dynabolt as it would make it difficult to nip them up tighter in the future if they needed it.

Take a look at how a flush-head dynabolt works - there is no external nut, instead there is a threaded bolt and threaded cone inside the hole. So the only place to Loctite it would be inside the internal workings.

>It comes in various strengths from 'mild-fixing' applications through>to 'permanent-fixing' applications, which require very high strength torque>to break the bond. >It is fast setting (though full strength takes 24 hrs?), and is temperature>resistant, with a single drop on the nut thread before doing it up, being>sufficient for most applications.>>The lighter strength versions would still enable the nut to be removed>if ever required.

The nuts undo because they get huge sideways forces put onto them when people fall off - especially on roof routes. So I doubt lighter versions would be strong enough to hold these forces at bay.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone that has used Loctite successfully to stop nuts coming off on high trafficked routes.

I have never thought of pitons in the same way as bolts. Pitons were designed to be removed by the second. I'd suggest you all consider them in the same class as a fixed wire or sling, just more likely to damage the rock.
Bolts on the other hand are intended to stay put for a long time so anyone placing them should take a long term view.
- Does the climb really need bolts?
- Does it suit the environment and ethic of the crag?
- How can they be located optimally, for safety, rock integrity, different height climbers, etc?
- Is the bolt technology right for the rock type and geographic location?
- Is there another technology that will be easier to replace when the time eventually comes?
As is it hard to predict how popular a crag might become in future I don't think this should be considered. Doing a half arsed job because you don't think many people will repeat a climb calls into question whether the climb really needs bolts to begin with.
Hand drilling on lead is an entirely different category, and rare these days. When the time comes to re-equip such routes I think all the questions above should be asked rather than assuming a like-for-like replacement is appropriate.

On 27/11/2013 shiltz wrote:>Doing a half arsed job because you don't>think many people will repeat a climb calls into question whether the climb>really needs bolts to begin with.

Like

>Hand drilling on lead is an entirely different category, and rare these>days. When the time comes to re-equip such routes I think all the questions>above should be asked rather than assuming a like-for-like replacement>is appropriate.

No, they didn't fall out - a few were found to be loose and pulled out with fingers - retightened they are fine. A subaru wouldn't pull it out of a gutter. What I don't understand is Sliamese and others taking it upon themselves to be the rock police and saying they would replace what they think are bad bolts without discussing it with first ascensionists.
I think the first ascensionist should have input to decide the future protection on a route if people are intending to change it. If the initial bolts were proven to be dodgy, then a reasonable person should agree to have them replaced. But I would draw the line at adding bolts and also changing the position of bolts.
There is talk for instance of a grade 16 having bolts added so it is safer for beginners. I initially led it on wires, but then retrobolted with 3 bolts (99% of routes at Hillwood initially led with some gear have been retrobolted). Its a bit runout and you might go close to decking, but climbing is a dangerous sport, and people don't have to rope up on that route - its not my fault if someone hurts themself - they chose to climb it. If one of the bolts I installed failed and someone got hurt, then I would feel a degree of responsibility, but of course a first ascensionist should take all diligence to install the best possible gear he can manage/afford based on research and advice of other experienced practioners. But climbers also also need to realise they climb at their own risk and not to blindly trust fixed gear.
There are some new routes down here still being established with carrots and with no lower-offs by some climbers for several reasons - environmentally less obtrusive - and also a philiosophy which says they only put enough bolts in (and the type of bolt) to get up the route themselves, and stuff future ascensionists. I can understand that - I don't have to repeat their routes.
There is no universal bolting standard, and I think its unwise for Sliamese and others to decide what is the ultimate bolting standard and imposing that on everyone by replacing all bolts that don't meet his standard. Then he takes on that responsibility for everyones safety which is a dangerous precedent.
Are we getting closer to the day where there is an Australian/international standard that we all have to adhere to, have training to industry standard and a bolting license that is checked by the rock police and fines imposed because we set up a dodgy climb. Climbing has always been a bit anarchic and self regulated - lets leave it that way - as long as we are responsible in the equipping of our climbs.

On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:>No, they didn't fall out - a few were found to be loose and pulled out>with fingers - retightened they are fine.

As I suspected. So they are fine then. I actually found when I started placing expansions I was afraid to tighten them heavily (after I snapped the head off a 10mm dynabolt doing so), so I suspect some of the loose expansion bolts were never correctly tightened anyway.

>What I don't understand is Sliamese and others taking it upon>themselves to be the rock police and saying they would replace what they>think are bad bolts without discussing it with first ascensionists.

You guys need to sit down and talk with each other it seems!

>I think>the first ascensionist should have input to decide the future protection>on a route if people are intending to change it. If the initial bolts were>proven to be dodgy, then a reasonable person should agree to have them>replaced. But I would draw the line at adding bolts and also changing the>position of bolts.

Yep I agree. But there does need to be some room to move on both sides. Input does not equal "the last word".

>There is talk for instance of a grade 16 having bolts>added so it is safer for beginners. I initially led it on wires, but then>retrobolted with 3 bolts (99% of routes at Hillwood initially led with>some gear have been retrobolted). Its a bit runout and you might go close>to decking, but climbing is a dangerous sport, and people don't have to>rope up on that route - its not my fault if someone hurts themself - they>chose to climb it.

I'm interested to know why you would retrobolt your own route, but still make it so there is a potential ground fall. The worst bolted routes are the ones that are not immediately obvious that they are dangerous. I presume the guidebook warns people of the runout nature - even after the retrobolt?

>a first>ascensionist should take all diligence to install the best possible gear>he can manage/afford based on research and advice of other experienced>practioners.

I don't agree that "afford" should be a factor. If you can't afford stainless steel for example maybe you should keep saving and buy later.

>But climbers also also need to realise they climb at their>There are some new routes>down here still being established with carrots and with no lower-offs by>some climbers for several reasons - environmentally less obtrusive - and>also a philiosophy which says they only put enough bolts in (and the type>of bolt) to get up the route themselves, and stuff future ascensionists.

Why don't they use removable bolts then? Screwbolts - or finger tightened dynabolts also work well in this way. If they really don't want anyone to repeat their route they shouldn't be leaving bolts behind.

>Climbing has always been a bit anarchic>and self regulated - lets leave it that way - as long as we are responsible>in the equipping of our climbs.

Yes - I agree there shouldn't be a rule book that is enforceable. But you need to realize that breaking the rules goes both ways - you choose to bolt with whatever you want, but that also means someone else can choose to replace it with whatever they want! ;-)

I was comparing pitons to carrots which are essentially function as a circular piton. Some carrots are bombproof, but people are paranoid about them and want to replace them. But the point I was making is that there are old pitons at Araps (which are way dodgier than any carrot) such as on Snowblind and Lunatic, which remain. I climbed both routes last year and the old pins are still there. My understanding is that they remain to preserve the historical integrity of the route. So if such logic is applied to Serpentine for instance, leave Malcolms old bolts in if they are still solid.

On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:>I was comparing pitons to carrots which are essentially function as a circular>piton. Some carrots are bombproof, but people are paranoid about them and>want to replace them. But the point I was making is that there are old>pitons at Araps (which are way dodgier than any carrot) such as on Snowblind>and Lunatic, which remain. I climbed both routes last year and the old>pins are still there. My understanding is that they remain to preserve>the historical integrity of the route. So if such logic is applied to Serpentine>for instance, leave Malcolms old bolts in if they are still solid.

The issue is that carrots are presumed by many (normally correctly) to be reliable on a sport route if they look ok, when it's quite clear that inspection doesn't really work for assessing security, and that carrots can go from OK to failure over a short period of time. The odd piton on a trad route is treated by almost everyone as dodgy.
You're just creating a smoke-screen over the real points being discussed.

On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:> But the point I was making is that there are old>pitons at Araps (which are way dodgier than any carrot) such as on Snowblind>and Lunatic, which remain. I climbed both routes last year and the old>pins are still there. My understanding is that they remain to preserve>the historical integrity of the route.

The Snowblind piton is definitely a replacement, in a different bit of the crack, after the debacle that Neil referred to. It will probably come out on someone one day as well. There's not really any great gear to back it up, i think there's a bodgy flared 3 camalot. The low bolt on lunatic is also from the last decade, not sure if it replaced a piton or carrot though. The top piton can remain as long as it likes, there's a good micro cam placement next to it, no need for a bolt, just judicious use of judgement. I would always back up an old piton were possible.

On 27/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 27/11/2013 crackalackin! wrote:>>The odd piton on a trad route is treated by almost everyone as dodgy.>>~> ... This is an interesting perspective, and reflects a generational>change I guess.