The Doctrine of Additional Prophets

To My Long-Time Friends and Associates

We have a lot in common. We have spent years worshiping together and providing service in the church. We have served in Bishoprics, on High Councils, in High Priest groups, as teachers in the Primary and in a multitude of other callings over the years. We have taught seminary and Sunday school together. We have been missionaries and have sung together in the choir. It has been forty years since my first calling as a teacher at age seventeen. Know this: I love you and love my association with good people like you.

I understand the orthodox, standard and correlated doctrines of the church. I have studied and taught them all my life. From my earliest days in Sunday school, Primary, Seminary, religion classes at BYU-I, institute classes, adult Sunday school, including years teaching the doctrines and history of this church, I have loved every minute of it. I have tried to develop gifts of the spirit in teaching and preaching. Some of my most spiritual experiences have been in prayer, while preparing lessons to be taught on Sundays.

A Rich Tradition of Conserving the Past

I recognize most leaders and members of the LDS church are conservative by nature. We hold dear the traditions of our church and our nation. We love the ceremonies of remembering, partaking of the sacrament, participating in home and visiting teaching, striving to find our ancestors through research in family history and taking the names of our ancestors to the temple to perform ordinances of salvation. This is right and good. I am also conservative by nature. I cherish our long history and rich traditions.

I can’t tell you how much I love singing the songs of Zion in Sacrament, Sunday school and priesthood meetings with you. I’ve enjoyed my time on the Stake High Council, in Bishopric meetings, ward council and PEC meetings. My association with you has blessed my life and caused me to reflect many times on the happy state of those who are righteous, of those who strive to live after the manner of happiness. I see the result living the gospel has brought to your lives and have tried to emulate your good examples.

We Are Each A Little Different

I’m sure you have recognized I am a little different in that I am quiet, introverted and somewhat shy. I learned to immerse myself in books and studying the gospel from the time I was seventeen. I have spent over forty years studying the doctrines of this church, trying to understand what we really believe and what we are supposed to accomplish with our lives. For the most part we are agreed. I have been able to “put questions up on the shelf” as we have been taught to do, while waiting patiently for answers.

Because I know I am responsible for my own salvation, I have sought those answers diligently. Over the past few years I have come to see things a little differently. I have come to view certain passages of scripture with a different interpretation than what we have been taught all our lives in the standard curriculum of the church. I know this is bothersome to some of my long-time friends. I know you are concerned about me. You have told me so. I appreciate your kind expressions of love and concern.

I Love the Lord, I Love His Church

Please know I am not seeking to disassociate myself from this church and certainly not from our long friendships. I have no desire to create doubt or confusion. I do not wish to be blamed for influencing your children to turn from their membership in this church we love and have loved for so long. I am a Mormon and intend to remain a Mormon as long as this church will allow me to stay. Because I love the Lord, and believe in the principle of personal revelation so strongly, I intend to do as He directs me.

The Lord has directed me in the scriptures and in my personal prayers to places I had never imagined I would go. I have always thought of myself as a true-blue, died-in-the-wool Mormon, believing all I had been taught about our history and how we should view certain events in that history. You may ask why our history is so important. It is critical to our understanding of what this church has to offer and what the Lord is doing with His church. Note I still refer to the Church as the Lord’s. I do not doubt that fact.

I Sustain the Authorities of This Church

I have repeatedly stated I sustain the local and general authorities of the Church. I continue to reaffirm that commitment. I sustain these men as prophets, seers and revelators as we have done by common consent since the days of Joseph Smith. Although I do not understand the principle of keys as well as I would like, I have always and will continue to affirm the living prophet, Thomas S. Monson, as a prophet of God, the only man who is authorized to exercise all the keys of the priesthood as I understand them.

The big difference, and what has changed in my life over the past few years, is my belief in additional prophets of the Lord, outside the hierarchy of the LDS Church. For this I have been chastised, warned and pleaded with to be careful, to turn from this erroneous belief and to keep my beliefs to myself. In a desire to be honest and give my local priesthood leaders full opportunity to determine my worthiness to continue serving in my current stake calling, I turned in my temple recommend a month or two ago.

Response to Turning In My Temple Recommend

I was surprised at the reaction. You would think I had done the worst thing any member of this church could do. Especially astonishing were the responses of former associates in stake leadership positions – in a previous stake – whose words caused me to feel I had turned my back on all I hold precious and true in my life. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have done nothing of the sort. I am loyal to a fault. I have no desire to do or say anything to cause others to doubt their testimonies of the restored gospel.

I know I am not the first to go through this experience, but perhaps I am the first to make such a public issue of the matter by explaining and describing the process on my blog. I am striving to honor direction from my local leaders to not share details of our meetings, and believe I have kept that promise. The funny thing about my declaration and my actions is that it is so in line with what we find in the Book of Mormon, I can only surmise people have not read or do not accept the Book of Mormon on this matter.

Multiple Prophets Currently Lead Our Church

We currently have fifteen men we sustain as prophets, seers and revelators. Every General conference and at least in one Stake Conference per year, I raise my hand with you in sustaining them in this calling. Many of you know my sister is the secretary to one of those apostles. I am grateful to have met Elder Perry both in his office in the Church Administration Building and here in my home ward a few years ago. I find him to be a delightful man, worthy of the position he holds, filled with the light of the Lord.

The Scriptures teach the Lord reveals His will and directs His children through prophets. I fully accept this doctrine. If we study the scriptures closely, especially the Book of Mormon, we will note the Lord does not limit Himself to prophets within the prevailing institutional hierarchy. In other words, it is more common for the Lord to send prophets from outside the leadership of the day than it is from within that church. Think of Enoch and Moses, then Lehi, Alma and Samuel the Lamanite from the Book of Mormon.

There Is a Strange Thing in the Land

We are studying the Old Testament in our Gospel Doctrine class this year. We just learned about how the Lord called Samuel, even as a boy, who replaced Eli, who served as the Presiding High Priest in Israel at that time. In the New Testament we have the examples of John the Baptist and even the Savior who came from outside the accepted hierarchy of the day. The more you think about it, the more you will come to realize the Lord has always sent prophets to warn us of destruction and prepare us for Zion.

Just so I’m not misunderstood, I am going to be as clear as I know how to be. Although I am not the first to make this declaration, perhaps because of my leadership positions in the church over the years, and because of the prominence of my blog, I am going to place everything on the line in proclaiming what I know to be true through study and prayer. It will go contrary to what you have been taught over the years. You may find it outrageous and may be offended. Nevertheless, this is prompted by the Lord.

My Declaration of a New Prophet

I declare unto you, in all words of soberness, in words revealed unto me by the Lord, that He has sent a prophet to us within the last few years from outside the hierarchy of the Church, with a mission to teach us, to warn us, and to lead us to the Lord. I have spent hundreds of hours studying his published words. I have listened to his recorded teachings over this past year and have found truth in what he has shared. I have sat in his presence recently to test his spirit. I found no fault and have had my witness reaffirmed.

I declare unto you this prophet is acting as an Elias, or a John the Baptist, with the mission to prepare us to receive the Lord. More importantly, he is as Moses in striving to show us the way to the Lord, that we may enter into His presence in this life, to be prepared to be caught up to meet the inhabitants of the City of Enoch at the coming of the Lord. That event will be accompanied by great destructions. This is well known. Not as well-known is just how soon those destructions will begin to be poured out upon us.

I Am No Apostate – I am True and Faithful

I make this declaration knowing full well it is contrary to the traditions of our fathers and of our church, but it is not contrary to the ways of the Lord. You will know this if you take seriously the message of the Book of Mormon. Use the current mantra of the church in “Follow the Prophet” to study the words of this prophet. How can you judge a matter without studying it out, pondering it and praying about it? You may find it uncomfortable and unfamiliar at first, but I promise you, the Lord bears witness of the truth.

I am not alone in this declaration. There are hundreds, if not thousands, who also know this man to be a messenger sent from the Lord. You would think a church that teaches the importance of studying the Book of Mormon would stand by this doctrine of prophets coming from outside the hierarchical order of the established institution. Instead, they have cast this messenger out as an apostate. In so doing, they have violated the principles of the priesthood, and in effect, have rejected the fullness that was offered.

The Lord Will Reveal Himself to Us

The day of the Gentile is now past. It is over. The Gentile church rejected the fullness as prophesied. I am saddened to have been a witness to this event. I did not think it would happen in my day. I do not know the timetable of the Lord, but I do know we are now in the last days, not just the latter-days. I do not know what will happen to me. I only know I must do what I have covenanted to do. I have promised to stand as a witness of the Lord in all times and all places. I am called upon to bear my own witness.

I bear witness the Lord is willing to reveal Himself to us. We should be diligent in seeking His face. He has promised to come unto us, to not leave us comfortless. I know this is true. He has promised us He will bear witness of the truth of all things if we will but ask Him. I have done so. The Lord has made it clear I must share my witness in order to progress. I dare not disobey Him. I love Him. I seek to do his will. If I am cast out as an apostate, so be it. That will not change the priesthood He has given me.

A Few Closing Thoughts

You can hear this prophet for yourself. He is now declaring the message the Lord has given Him. He will be teaching in the desert for two days at the end of July – First in Las Vegas and then in St. George. This will give time for people to soften their hearts before the final message to be delivered in September in Phoenix. I pray the Lord will soften the hearts of the honest and believing blood of Israel before we reap the bitter harvest of our rejection of the fullness. The time is short. Great destructions now await us.

You can tell false prophets by their fruits. But you must study and understand the message they deliver before you can tell the Lord you have done as He has asked. Let the Lord take control. Let Him compel you and have dominion over your heart. Seek righteousness in your judgments. Do not add your “amen” to the rejection of a prophet, a true messenger sent to guide us in the way of salvation. I, for one, cast my lot with the Lord and what He has revealed. I stand by my sacred covenant. I am true to my promise.

Update (7-14-14): There has been so much misunderstanding in regards to my declaration above, I feel the need to clarify. Note I did not proclaim this man was sent to be a prophet within the LDS church. In fact, I thought I made it especially clear he was sent from outside the hierarchy. I did NOT proclaim him to be an LDS prophet. I declared he was sent to us as a servant of the Lord with a message for all who would hear it.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, thus my declaration that he was / is a prophet. I stand by what I wrote. Please don’t add inference that the messenger / servant I refer to has anything to do with the LDS church hierarchy. He is not part of the institutional church. Members of the LDS Church vote on our prophets. They are called and sustained by common consent. The whole point of the post was / is that this man was sent by the Lord with a message.

Update two (7-18-14): Many of you know I took my blog down for a day or two at the recommendation of my Bishop. There was so much interest in this post, my declaration and the ensuing commentary that I could not bear to disappoint those who come here for discussion. I brought the blog back online after 24 hours. I thank you for allowing me to read your comments. I am simply amazed at the awesome thoughtfulness that goes into the ideas you share. God bless you all.

Some of you know Jules and her blog, 2nd Witness. Although I promised I would not add any new posts until after I return from the two lectures in Las Vegas and St. George next weekend, I was made aware of this letter from Jules to her bishop(s) and simply could not resist sharing: http://2ndwitness.com/letter-of-dissent-jules.html I found it especially interesting as she added so many insights in the area of this original post: The Doctrine of Additional Prophets.

308 Replies to “The Doctrine of Additional Prophets”

“And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. . . . And Moses said . . . would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:27, 29).

“My knowledge is, if you will follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, every man and woman will be put in possession of the Holy Ghost; every person will become a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and an expounder of truth. They will know things that are, that will be, and that have been. They will understand things in heaven, things on the earth, and things under the earth, things of time, and things of eternity, according to their several callings and capacities” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:243).

Yes, that is true, of course. But that does not give the “everyday Prophet” the authority to guide the LDS Church. Look here, there are many truths that I have from the Lord that I will not shout from the house tops, because its not my job. Denver may be a prophet in his own home. (I certainly consider to myself to have certain powers — more than a man — due to certain gifts of the Spirit that I receive from time to time.) But I don’t see that its my job to teach all I have. (I don’t go around teaching Adam-God, for example, because the GA’s have said we will ex you for that teaching.) yes, I open my mouth, and I’m fairly daring; but I’ve not had any takers, in all my years of showing people great stuff. Its an individual thing. Most people are not ready; they’re just not ready. In fact, the BoM tells us exactly how far we are intended to go publicly. See 3 Nephi 11. Up to and through Baptism of Fire is what we are commanded to teach (no more and no less — which was an issue for me, but I let it). Entering Christ’s present through the use of temple ordinances is not taught in the BoM — see, because it is a mystery, not to disclosed to those who are not ready.
However, I think there is a doctrinal issue (something lost to general knowledge) that takes the pressure off of one (to some degree) and removes the intense need to redirect the church during this cycle of “time and eternity.” You guys are all good folks; I see that; Denver is great with the history; but he’s not heavy in doctrine, really. This is a Telestial Kingdom; a judgement sphere. (Listen to the Temple narrative — oh, Tim, you can’t do that any more 🙂 Anyway, once you realize that Joseph and others have taught that this TK is not a one-chance system, then you realize that its not so important to press everyone to reach your level. (I have a short blog on the subject, that no one reads, so I don’t get in trouble. http://dgenetaylor.blogspot.com/2013/07/eternal-progression.html
The point is that its not so critical to “save” everyone this “time” around.
Open you eyes; hear what the temple teach about doctrine. Once you realize that even David has another shot at exultation (in the highest kingdom) then you can relax a bit. Work on your own progression; help where you can.

In response to Donald Gene Taylor’s comment: “Yes, that is true, of course. But that does not give the ‘everyday Prophet’ the authority to guide the LDS Church. Look here, there are many truths that I have from the Lord that I will not shout from the house tops, because its not my job.”

Denver Snuffer is not trying to “guide the LDS Church” or displace any of those who preside. He is simply declaring repentance to this generation and extending an invitation to come unto Christ to any who will hear. I have received a witness that the words he declares come from the Lord. Any time the Lord has a message to deliver He may choose whom he will to deliver that message, whether it be from the hierarchy of His Church or whether it is delivered through another vessel. In fact, if the Lord sent this same message to us through President Monson I would just as readily receive it and recognize it as a message from Him.

As well, if YOU haven’t been commanded to deliver a message to anyone outside your delegated authority then so be it; but that doesn’t mean others haven’t been asked or required to do so.

You would decide FOR GOD whom he may speak through? I wouldn’t dare presume to decide what he may or may not do.

My responsibility and privilege is to hear His voice from whomever he chooses to send.

I praise and thank God for speaking to us again through a prophet and for giving us this opportunity to come unto Christ and prepare ourselves for His return.

Tim,
I too am looking for the light The Lord has/will send to help prepare us. The Lord counted the Jews as His people until they rejected Him. I wonder if the times of the Gentiles has ended or if it will end when they reject Him? Why do you think the times of the Gentiles is over?

Thank you Tim. I agree and appreciate your witness. I especially appreciated this:

“The Lord has made it clear I must share my witness in order to progress. I dare not disobey Him. I love Him. I seek to do his will.”

The Lord has asked me to do something hard and something that seems contrary to the traditional way, but like you said, if I wish to progress, I must obey. Thank you for providing me an additional witness of that path.

I would like to confirm your witness as well. I haven’t posted a comment here before but wanted you and others to know Tim, that I really enjoy your blog (as well as Denver’s). I now look more carefully for the truths in all things and let the spirit take precedence over what I might think is right. I’m quicker to turn to The Lord for guidance and in gratitude for everything. I’m quicker to look for what I’m supposed to learn through my experiences. Although I wish I had a better mastery of the scriptures, Denver is directly responsible for my “reinvestment” in the scriptures/gospel and my relationship with Christ. Years ago I was struggling and on the verge of giving up on scripture study when in answer to serious prayers I was directed to his books. I received guidance and direct answers to my questions as well as a confirmation that what I was learning was true. I continue to carefully & humbly take the information to The Lord for confirmation and guidance. He has been so very kind, patience and loving in dealing with someone so slow (me). I thank you and those like you for doing what you do, you have played a huge roll in strengthening my relationship with my Savior.

Thank you Tim. I was just in the Temple this afternoon. When the words of the law of conseration, wh. includes “for the building up of the Kingdom of God upon the earth and for the establishment of Zion” was presented, the Spirit testified to me that the Church is not doing this, rather, the Lord is calling people from outside the hierarchy to accomplish this. I too testify of the prophet you mentioned. He has been cast out just as Abinidi and (figuratively) burned at the Stake.
I have a testimony that he is indeed a prophet, something I have never received regarding the 15 who claim that title and wear it like a badge of distinction.
JR

I am a follower of the Tim Man! Yes you have followers and I am inclined to trust you. Make sure you know what you are doing, but I promise I won’t hold you responsible for me. I would like to see you stay in the Church I have enlisted in and I don’t want you ex’d either. We can’t defend our church from the outside.

The current definition of “apostasy” and the TR question that asks if we “affiliate, support or agree” with anyone or anything contrary to the doctrines of the church means that anyone can have their recommend pulled, or be ex’ed, at any time, for nearly any un-correlated thoughts, words, or actions.

In 1996 I summoned to a disciplinary council called to determine if I had apostatized, which was the accusation being alleged. Beforehand, I had determined that because, like so many other terms used by the church over the years, that have transpired since the restoration, to define doctrine, I felt that word too had been redefined to mean something entirely different than its original intent. After giving my thoughts on the subject, I asked the stake president to clarify the term apostasy in the context of the church. My understanding of the term was as follows: The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia (“ἀποστασία”) meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as “a willful falling away from, or rebellion against one’s former belief. Then I asked him if my understanding of the church’s definition was correct, i.e.. “to be out of harmony with current practices and teachings”? He said that was correct. Well then by logic, that means that in order to fit that definition, the doctrines of the church can and have changed. So to whom does the original intent of the word apply?

For the record, the church did not start sustaining both the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators until sometime in the mind 50s. My father remembers when they made this change. Previous to this, only the president of the church was sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator. The scriptures make no case for anyone other than the president of the church being, or having the duty to becoming, a prophet, seer, and revelator. Our sustaining all 15 as prophets, seers, and revelators is new doctrine. It is false doctrine.

I will do some research and try to pin-point when this change took place.

It appears I may be wrong about this. According to the official records I’ve found, the General Conference of the church sustained the President of the church, and ‘The counselors in the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles. and the Patriarch to the Church as Prophets, Seers and Revelators.” between 1936 and 1969, and between 1897 and 1899. Between 1900 and 1935 it doesn’t look like the Patriarch to the church was sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator. I don’t now where to find access to the General Conference reports from before 1897.

I don’t know how accurate these official reports are, or if they might have been changed.

I think that what my father was possibly referring to was changes in the temple recommend questions. I really don’t know though.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the only ones ever referred to as prophets, seers, and revelators were Joseph and Hyrum.

The official history of the church claims the Twelve were sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators during the Kirtland Temple dedication; but that record was continually revamped into the late 1800s and is far from reliable.

Bottom line: there are many incongruencies here that we are far from getting to the bottom of.

“We sustain our brethren of the twelve, as prophets, seers, and revelators; and I have heard it remarked by some brethren, that they could not see any need of doing so, and that holding up their hands does not make those men prophets, seers and revelators. That is true enough as far as it goes. But by sustaining these brethren in our customary way, we manifest to God . . . that we are willing to receive any revelation that the higher powers may see fit to communicate through them in that capacity. . . . we have men presiding over us in this Church through whom the word of the Lord will come in our present circumstances for our guidance and for the guidance of the whole Church in its onward march, as the exigencies of the case may require. And when we lift up our hands to heaven to sustain them, we manifest that we hold ourselves in readiness to receive the word of the Lord whenever he sees fit to impart it to us. They are the legal channels; they are the appointed receptacles to receive the words of the Lord for us as an organized body; and by lifting up our hands to heaven in this way, we show to God and to angels, that we are ready at any time, if the Lord has a word of revelation to communicate to us, to receive it” (Charles Penrose, JD 21:47).

“We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts. But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. . . . Now I don’t think many of us have attained to these gifts, but it is not the fault of the Almighty, but the fault is in ourselves. And can they be realized by us? Certainly they can, if we are faithful in seeking for them” (Orson Pratt, JD 25:145).

But as Karl posted earlier, below:

All the hand wringing and angst over what the Brethren do is totally unnecessary.

God can do all things. If God wants someone to receive a certain blessing, nothing can stand in His way.

“[D]on’t make any hasty moves, you may be saved. If a spirit of bitterness is in you, don’t be in haste. You may say, that man is a sinner. Well, if he repents, he shall be forgiven. Be cautious: await” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:315).

I remain patient that God is well aware of what’s going on in the Church and in the world and will handle things as He sees fit.

Wouldn’t common consent have made it legal and commonly consented which makes it OK? The Church is ebbing into an inevitable round of apostasy (or chaos), but isn’t that natural and needed in order for us to be restored in Zion? Our church’s problems and strengths are the sum total of all for all. Finding something false therefore about doctrines or practices is like finding well-exposed easter eggs on an open lawn. The trick is in how we endure to the end without losing our peace with God.

Tim, I agree, Pr. Monson is THE prophet, but there are others! I can say that I received a witness of the First Presidency three years ago during a General Priesthood session and it was strong, that they were there at the hand of the Lord and his servants, it came “without my supplication”. I didn’t know why until recently. I too have felt the spirit and “authority “in Denver’s work! So wow!

Not to be too mean spirited, but I actually do hope that Tim loses his membership, and sadly many others here also. Frankly, Tim’s seemingly contrite declaration of his faithfulness to the Church appears to me to be quite disingenuous in light of his declaration and criticism of the Church for its action regarding Denver. I’m a great believer in personal revelation – the operative word being personal. What I see here is the same old tired form of apostasy that we have seem for multiple millennia and especially since the restoration. THIS is the day which tests our obedience. How many of us here are totally faithful to the counsels given by past and present prophets? Are we diligent with meaningful personal and family prayer, FHE, scripture study, and teaching our children. Are we faithful home teachers, missionaries, temple attenders, fellowshippers, and friend shippers? Are we out of debt, living within our means, temporarily prepared with food and finance. Do we truly magnify our callings and fully sustain and support our local leaders? Carefully avoid all forms of pornography and other unseemly entertainment? Keep the Word of Wisdom in all regards and are physically fit? Full tithe payers, fast and pay fast offerings? Faithfully attend all of our meetings? I suspect that if we all were following the prophets we wouldn’t need Denver Snuffer to lead the Second Comforter to us – He would find us on His own. Without obedience all the following covenants are meaningless. And you say we need a 16th prophet? Let that 16th prophet be ourselves for ourselves. Tim, I am sad for you. Don’t let the adversary win this one.

Jim Jones,
WOW, if all members of the church were as un Christ like as you, I’d volunteer my membership in the church and run! Your laundry list is void of Christ, which is the message. And I can honestly say yes to all of your list, but without Christ its meaningless!

I didn’t expect to win friends with my post. Nor was the “list” intended to be judgmental, but only to point out that very few, if any of us (yes, including me), can say we have mastered the counsel we have already been given. I obviously haven’t mastered political correctness. However, I have a granddaughter who appears to be succumbing to Kate Kelly and my wife’s family was RLDS. The good friend who introduced me to the Church and baptized me now thinks he’s the One Mighty and Strong. All I’m saying is that we have enough to do to pound in the stakes of Zion through-out the world to prepare the world for the return of the Savior, without counseling those who the Lord has called to lead the work. I’m all for discussion and I immensely valued most of Denver Snuffer’s books. But many of the posts in this thread prove my point. This is the time when the very elect will be deceived by those who merely intend to steady the ark. sfort, clever response, but I think you know the test of obedience isn’t whether we keep the commandments, for none of us do. Rather, will we bow to the will of the Lord. If the Brethren asked me to take down a blog, I would take that as a test of obedience. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls!” Jacob 2:16.

Thanks for acknowledging, but you missed my point. It is the works driven nature that sabotages all the Lord tried to accomplish with the restoration and with his record of the visit to the Nephites. When we focus only on the works and the outward appearance for the submitting to counsel sake, the spiritual manifestations seize. We are not saved by obeying man with every performance known to mankind. It is following the spirit exactly that the Lord begins to trust, not whether we follow with every detail what man offers. The Spirit is left out of your scenario. We are all on a journey and to wish that Tim gets his come-uppance is neither Christian nor filled with the Spirit. It is the “outward appearance” aspect that precludes our visiting the Lord at the veil. Thank you for your journey.

Lynn and I used the “prophet” word to describe the role of that man a few months ago during one of our discussions. We jointly and quietly marveled at this. We agreed that his fruits were truth because as we have read his words our hearts have burned within us. The same burning I have felt when reading The Book of Mormon or the Lectures on Faith or passages from the Bible that testify of Christ. Thank you for sharing your witness.

Thought in passing, speaking of the Lectures on Faith, why did Heber J. Grant see fit to remove them from the then canon of scripture without the consent of the church? They were added to the D&C and excepted by vote of the church in conference. The Lectures were considered the doctrine and the revelations that followed were the covenants. See the D&C before 1921. I have my grandmother’s copy which included the LOF.

Tim,
Thank you dear and beautiful Brother for your testimony and standing for His Gospel. I stand with you Brother that The Lord has provided to us “another voice ” in a Special Witness and Friend to Him. I testify that President Monson and the brethren are called by The Lord to teach and testify to the masses and majority of His Church. These are they who are willing to only hear the words of “milk” and not prepared to hear and start to live the words of “honey”.
There are plenty of prophecy warning us about worshipping the “culture of the church” and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. These are those days in which we live.

Still no prophecy there. In any event, the ordinances are real, and they are symbols. Baptism in water is a symbol for the experience we are intended to have by “eventually” by being immersed in the Spirit. (Baptism of Fire.) Temple ordinances are the same. They represent the real thing that we must experience. So the Church Claims authority to Seal, etc., and they probably have that wrong, in one sense, not realizing its a symbol, a teaching tool. We have family members who received their Calling & Election under the direction President Monson; after that, I don’t think this couple was looking for more (what I would call the real thing under the hands of the Lord.) So Denver’s teaching is mostly true, but where’s the beef? (no prophesy is what you have listed.)

“I could write my own Gospel. I could bear my own testimony. I could invent a new narrative about our Lord, if it were necessary to do so. But I will tell you the only thing that is necessary is to open the scriptures and read them, and to tell you, the things that we looked at tonight are true. Like Jacob.In fact, if you go all the way back to Jacob chapter 6:
1: “
And now, behold, my brethren, as I said untoyou that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy
—
that the things which this prophet Zenos spake,concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive-tree, must surely cometo pass.
”
So here are the words my prophecy: That the things that we have looked at this evening,restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the seer named Joseph, the son of the father named Joseph, fulfilled the promise of Joseph of Egypt, and they are all true. I know them to be true. And you could know them to be true too. But the price you have to pay to gain that knowledge is to study what was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Otherwise, they’re just something gathering dust on a shelf. Don’t read them as if you’re trying to vindicate the religion you already understand. Don’t read them as if you’re trying to defend your current group of preferred doctrines. Read them as if you are as ignorant of the will of God as the convert you hope to make living somewhere in Florida or New Guinea or Guatemala. Because the truth of the matter is we have been devolving in our understanding from the day of Joseph Smith until today at an ever accelerating rate. And what we have left, Enoch called gross darkness.I bear testimony that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. I bear testimony that our Lord lived and lives.I’m one of those who can say that I am a witness of that. I have seen His suffering. I have heard His voice. He doesn’t intend that I be a solitary witness of Him, or Joseph be one. He intends for everyone of you to rise up and do as James bids you to do. If you lack wisdom, ask God. He gives to you, He gives to all of us liberally. He is real. It is His work to bring this stuff to pass. The only thing that we can do is to offer to be a servant. And I am confident that I am a poor one of those. But I am His servant. I serve Him however poorly, however offensively, however inadequately. He intends to call, in the plural, servants to fulfill what needs to be done in the last days. He does intend to bring again Zion. That will be his, and not a man’s work.”

Tim,
You have such amazing faith and strength…I share your testimony about Denver…I listened to his message in Ephriam and my heart sang with joy… He has led me closer To Jesus than I ever have been. He revealed the truth about the return of The Lord…if we are prepared then Jesus will come as a Lamb..if we are not..then His coming will be as that of a fierce Lion! I have never felt more of a desire to cast off all my sins…The day of The Lord is verily at hand .

Tim, I almost don’t dare to ask……something is different with this post…..the language you are using….your witness….your covenant….priesthood….I hope you have received what you have been longing for! God bless.

Tim,
I want to thank you for your courage in presenting your thoughts and experiences. When I read your comment that Denver is the Elias, it triggered my memory that the Spirit testified of that same fact to me a while back. Yes, this man is the forerunner, sent to prepare the way because those charged with that responsibility have fallen asleep. Just as in Father Lehi’s day, the leaders of the Church are too busy running to and fro over the world and guarding the “sanctity” of the doctrine to do what needs to be done in truly building up the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and establishing Zion, so the Lord is calling prophets from outside the hierarchy. We have entered the time which Ezekiel spoke of in Ez. 34, when the Lord Himself will gather His sheep and feed them and lead them to Zion, because the shepherds have been too busy feeding themselves and clothing themselves with the wool they have sheared from the peope. I also agree with the writer above who mentioned that Denver’s words lift him like the Book of Mormon does. Both are truly inspired of the Lord.
JR

Tim-I very sorry to see you make this announcement. I believe you are deceived. The Book of Mormon teaches the following regarding times like we’re living in now.

15 And it came to pass that after there had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes;
16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes…behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people—
17 For behold, king Benjamin was a holy man, and he did reign over his people in righteousness; and there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people—
18 Wherefore, with the help of these, king Benjamin, by laboring with all the might of his body and the faculty of his whole soul, and also the prophets, did once more establish peace in the land.

(Book of Mormon | Words of Mormon 1:15 – 18)

Denver Snuffer is not assisting the prophets. He is leading faithful members away. You’re an example. I hope you will find your way back.

jared, I’m having trouble seeing how that passage fits our times. What prophets “are among the people” now?

When the Book of Mormon says “prophet”, it means one who actually carries the same kind of mantle, who does the very same work, whose life bears the same fruits, as prophets in the scriptures. If we have many of these, I would love to know where they are hiding, and what they have prophesied. Samuel stood upon the city wall. Jonah cried aloud in the streets of Ninevah. Aaron stood before King Lamoni’s father. Joseph taught the assembled saints many, many times. Scriptural prophets are, literally, among the people. Living in their cities, eating with them, working side-by-side with them, interacting with them on a daily basis as members of their communities.

What false christs have there been among us? What crimes have they committed? How were they punished?

When the Book of Mormon says “many”, it really means *many*. Not one, not a handful or two. Many.

The Lord of Hosts works openly, so we can see that His words are being fulfilled. He will not pour out the judgements prophesied after His servants quietly fulfilling everything in some remote, shadowy corner. Those who stand to reap the whirlwind do so after repeated warnings and opportunities to return to Him.

Annalea-I’ve learned in the nearly eight years I’ve been blogging and commenting in the bloggernacle that it does little good to attempt to answer questions such as you have asked. It ends up being a debate and usually accomplishes nothing.

In the verse I quoted above a church hadn’t been organized. An organized church in the Book of Mormon didn’t exist until Alma the older’s day. Alma was “the founder of their church” (Mosiah 23:16).

Prior to that they obviously had prophets but not apostles. They had priesthood authority to baptize for the purpose of receiving the Holy Ghost. They practiced the law of Moses, but they didn’t have a church as we do today.

It wasn’t until the Savior came among the Nephites that they had a church with apostles and prophets.

I assume you know all of this but your question left me wondering.

Lastly, we have prophets in every ward and stake in the church.

The definition of a prophet is a person who knows by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, “for the testimony of Jesus is is the spirit of prophecy.” Rev. 19:10.

Jared91, thank you for your response. I understand your approach, as I’ve used it many times myself. Answering every question raised only serves to obfuscate the underlying issue. I could have just as easily posted my first sentence, and left it at that.

Your response, though, doesn’t help me see how the scripture you quoted fits our times. Could you elucidate that a bit for me, please?

When the Cambellites (Sidney Rigdon, etc.) discovered the “Mormons” and their golden Bible, they concluded that the time to “restore” the New Testament church had, at last, arrived (as they had hoped it would). Rigdon embraced the golden Bible — and Joseph Smith’s teachings — and encouraged his congregants to do likewise, thus tripling the size of the nascent “Mormon” sect. He subsequently persuaded Joseph Smith to seek guidance on how to “set up” the Church. Joseph received the pattern we have today (more or less) in answer to his prayers.

It is a divine pattern — patterned after the family of God: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob — but it is certainly not the only pattern.

The Cambellites wanted a church. You’ll notice there is no “church” like the LDS Church in the verses you quoted. The “prophets” were “among his people” and “in the land”, like Snuffer is. Tim is right. We should all be prophets. Does the sun only shine on 15 acres of land? Or does the rain fall into only 15 buckets? Tim is not advocating that anyone reject the LDS Church or even not follow its leaders! What he is saying is “Lo, here! Here is another prophet!” So what? By their fruits ye shall know them.

I see nothing but good (so far) in what Denver Snuffer has done and taught. Like Pontius Pilate said, I find no fault with the man. Why is he now an “apostate”? What “crime” has he committed? What “false doctrine” has he taught? I know of none.

Denver Snuffer has brought me closer to Christ than anyone, save Joseph Smith. Is that a sin?

Jared,
When I watch the smooth talks in general conference sometimes it makes me gag…talks about their wife’s brownies and other feel-good-about-yourself tripe is worthless in bringing people to Christ.
In the scripture you quoted “there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people”. I can’t even remember the last time I heard a general authority speak the word of God with “power and authority and sharpness”.
If Denver is not assisting “the prophets” it is because “the prophets” are too busy feeding themselves and resting on their plush red chairs high up on the podium to do the Lord’s work. The Lord is calling other men to do His work because the shepherds have fallen asleep.
JR

Tim, I share your frustration at what passes as prophecy, revelation and seership in the modern form of the church. Members high and low are hungering and thirsting after righteousness and all they get are recirculated spiritual leftovers, meal after meal. I get that. Further, I see no scriptural basis whatsoever for giving the title of prophet, seer and revelator to the Twelve. The D&C never gives that designation to them. If only one man holds all the keys, then that is the only individual that should be designated with the title. As for the use of the term prophet, any man that has the testimony of Jesus, has the spirit of prophecy, and is hence a prophet. That’s according to Joseph Smith. I do believe it is possible that the leaders are focused on all the wrong things, and that the only way the Lord can get the restoration moving strongly again is to have those arise outside the hierarchy to start pointing the way. These antagonists are not there, however, to “compete” with the Brethren. They are there to be a thorn in the side of the Brethren, until the Brethren are willing to humble themselves and get refocused on the fundamentals of the gospel message, and get in line with what they should have been spending their time on all along. So far, as illustrated well by the Kate Kelley debacle, the Brethren are not budging from their standard response to lay members which has been control and suppression of all antagonists. But make no mistake: Mormonism can and will begin to change; but like a huge ocean freighter, change takes time and energy. You can’t change 100 years of doctrinal drift in an instant; such a drastic change would tear the body of Christ asunder. This will have to be done in degrees. We can pray for the Brethren and exercise utmost charity for their situation. Please understand that the Brethren have inherited from their predecessors 100 years of doctrinal drift. I believe that Lowell Bennion, Hugh Nibley, Paul and Margaret Toscano, Avraham Gileadi, along with many other, and now Denver Snuffer are all coming from the same tradition. All we can do is pray that the Brethren will start to pay attention to these messengers. In this sense they are all prophets, as every one of us are called to do. All the hand wringing and angst over what the Brethren do is totally unnecessary. If the true way to salvation is open to each individual, which is a prime message of Snuffer, then every individual can find their way home, without regard to the machinations of leaders. We can both be faithful to the leadership in terms of sustaining, etc., while understanding that applying the gospel and obtaining the fruits is an individual pursuit. Even if you believe the Brethren are totally off base in what they are doing and pursuing, so what? That doesn’t stop you from obtaining the constant direction of the Holy Ghost, then the spiritual gifts, then revelations, visions, C&E visitations from Angels, and then a visit from the Lord Himself as the Second Comforter. I fear that way too many bloggers are using these problems in administration in the Church as an excuse to get off or take a break from the Straight and Narrow Path, and are thereby losing their way in the Mists of Darkness. I know from my personal experience that traversing the Narrow Path is arduous, and the further one goes, the tougher it becomes. It is tempting to take a break, and get sidetracked, even by diversions that seem worthy of our attention. Personally, I won’t make any comment or action that could be construed as an assault on the Brethren, because for me it would be a diversion from my prime goal which is to finish my course on the Narrow Path. May God bless all of us in our pursuit to gain all the promises of the Gospel.

Doesn’t it feel good to get that out? I too have been carrying this around for way too long and I wish that I were an angel and could declare it with the sound of a trump. God is moving and it is glorious to witness. Denver is a Prophet called by God and we ignore his message at our peril! May we all soften our hearts as Tim has encouraged and look deeper into the things of God, especially the Book of Mormon and hear it’s true message.

I think these verses from D&C 45 are being fulfilled as we speak. The light is breaking forth.

22 Ye say that ye know that the end of the world cometh; ye say also that ye know that the heavens and the earth shall pass away;
23 And in this ye say truly, for so it is; but these things which I have told you shall not pass away until all shall be fulfilled.
24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;
25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.
27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Amen. Like you, I’ve pondered these very same verses of scripture for months now.

I think you would also find the JST of Isaiah 42:19-23 interesting and the entire chapter 42 of Isaiah, which speaks of “…for a covenant of the people for a light of the Gentiles.”

JST Psalm 14:7–“Oh that Zion were established out of Heaven, the salvation of Israel. O Lord, when wilt thou establish Zion? When the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.”

The cure/my cure lies in repentance and regardless of what may come, I know the Lord will still work to save men’s souls.

I also encourage all to study and listen to the message that Denver is teaching. It has helped me become close to my Savior and Know Him better than I thought possible.

“But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as PLAIN, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.” (Moroni 7: 13 ,15)

“Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he KNEW that the dark VEIL of UNBELIEF was being CAST away from his MIND, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness—yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God.” (Alma 19:6)

It is not always necessary for an established leadership to be out of the way, or asleep, for the Lord to send another messenger.

Nephi was alive, well, and preaching when Samuel the Lamanite was sent. In fact, those who believed Samuel’s teachings sought out Nephi for baptism. God could have had Nephi give the prophecy, but sent Samuel instead. Did Nephi see that as a threat to his authority among the Nephites?

It may be that the Lord has been working outside of the hierarchy as a test of the latter-day saints. It also protects, to a degree, the agency of the members of the church. Denver’s words aren’t binding to the church as a whole as something from Pres. Monson would be.

I agree God’s word is binding, but there is also a principle of being accountable to the light given you. Even Jesus used parables to conceal meaning from those unprepared.

I think that if such messages came via “official” channels, some would accept it only because of the office. Do we as LDS idolize the president to the point that receiving a message through him is no longer a test but a source of pride?

I agree with that completely! Denver has thus far been expounding the very scriptures we currently claim to believe to be the word of God. We have these truths in front of our eyes, the accountability already exists and no member of this church will be able to say they didn’t have access to the truth.

bd, on July 6, 2014 at 12:19 pm said: I would use a different word, idolize, (nearly worship as infallible, God will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray, etc..) Consider the following way Joseph Smith viewed such extreme notions of obedience:
Because of these facts, and the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority the question is sometimes asked, to what extent is obedience to those who hold the Priesthood required?
This is a very important question, and one, which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to
the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but, we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to
tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who
presided over them, (even) even if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should
not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal
right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of
their authority to cover it with, lest is should be discovered by their superiors, (God or whom ever we are accountable) who would require an atonement at their hands.

You realize, of course, that Joseph warned of idolizing him or any other man, be he a prophet or not. If you set up Denver in this way, you are only giving your agency to another, who may give you delusions… Because that’s what prophets do.

The Gentiles will not have kings who raise up to them. Brother Brigham tried that road, and take a look at the fruits of his kingdom. Just be careful, because we Gentiles have a way of either killing or worshipping our prophets. I have yet to see an exception.

I’m having a hard time reconciling your statement that you sustain the church leaders with this statement: “In so doing, they have violated the principles of the priesthood, and in effect, have rejected the fullness that was offered.”

Hi Tim, I have followed your blog for awhile now and love the deep doctrine you teach through your blog, you are a smart and amazing writer, I have learned a great deal from your blog. I also have read Denver Snuffer’s books and followed his blog but something to me does not feel right when so many people are being led away. I went to the temple in deep prayer and felt some things are off about him, everyone is entitled to their worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of your own conscience, you live and believe what you feel is right but I honestly believe that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God for this church, I believe that Joseph Smith restored the true gospel and is a very humble and loving man that has spent more time with the saviour than anyone, he gave his life for us, that in this day and age when evil would take over in leaps and bounds we would feel the protection through living gospel principles. The prophet and apostles dedicate their lives through the world over to bring us the Standard of Truth, I really love alot of your work but I think Christ should be your focus through the book of mormon and temple covenants.

Tim as you know i have occasionally disagreed with you. i still see your turning in your temple recommend as unnecessarily empowering your ecclesiastical leaders to exercise unrighteous dominion but I agree with your assessment of Denver Snuffers mission. I was there listening to him and while I have read all his books and attended or listened to all of his lectures and found them all profitable my experience in Epharim was qualitatively different. i received a strong witness that he was speaking as a “true messenger” and we ignore his words at our peril. i assume sadly that you will be excommunicated but stand with you as you do those things the Savior has commanded you. I will, as William Tyndale did, pray earnestly that God will open the eyes of our leaders and that you will not be sacrificed in the cause of the Savior. God bless you.

I confess I had not expected this response. I removed the links to Facebook as requested by my local priesthood leader. Most of the private emails were coming from old friends there. That apparently did not make a difference with this post. Apparently I have upset more than a few people who were willing to break their silence in correcting me privately. I appreciate their loving concern and promise to keep those private emails private.

I would like to respond in a general nature to some of the points raised. First, how does one know a prophet? One answer is in Ex 33:11 – “The Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto a friend.” How many men do you know who have said The Lord appeared unto them and spoke with them face to face? So far, I only know of biblical prophets, Joseph Smith and one other.

Response to the second point made by so many in emails and other conversations this day: “God doesn’t work that way today. You are not supposed to talk about those things.” With all due respect, if a man does not declare to me and the world he has seen and spoken with The Lord, how am I to know I should listen to him? Although I have not heard President Monson proclaim he has seen and spoken with the Lord face to face, I follow the traditional and customary practice of sustaining him as a prophet.

One more scripture may be helpful: Numbers 12:6-8 – “If there be a prophet among you, I, The Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth…” This is how we can know if The Lord has sent us a prophet.

I know a man who says he has seen The Lord. He says The Lord has asked him to help us understand the scriptures as they relate to what The Lord is about to do in these last days. Everything I have heard from this man is verified, at least in my studies, by scripture and by the whisperings of the Holy Ghost unto my soul. I have learned to trust that spirit, promised to me in my patriarchal blessing.

How can anyone say a man is not a prophet if they have not studied his words? How can anyone say The Lord would not allow a man to declare he has seen The Lord? How else can we know? If The Lord visits us and asks us to bear witness of it, we can and should do so, no matter the cost, or so we have been taught and believe as Mormons. Otherwise our belief in the testimony of Joseph Smith is in vain.

On another thread, I presented this definition of a “prophet” which I think is appropriate for this discussion.

The Hebrew word of the Old Testament that is translated as “prophet” is pronounced naw-bee. It means an inspired speaker, as in an in-spirit-ed speaker. The key to knowing whether a prophet is of the LORD, or not, is to recognize what spirit the prophet is inspired by – the Holy Spirit of God, or the spirit of Satan.

The Hebrew definition certainly leaves room for prophets through out all of history and more than one prophet at one time.

Isaac Newton, not only was a key figure in the scientific revolution, he was also considered a “prophet” by the Hebrew definition. He was considered to be devout but unorthodox Christian and was at odds with the Church of England because he rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Newton predicted or prophesied many things… one being “In a manuscript he wrote in 1704 in he estimated that the world would end no earlier than 2060.” (Hmmmm we’ll see how close he comes.)

In 1807 William Wordsworth wrote “Ode: Intimations of Immortality. Its prophetic message expresses insights that Joseph Smith would later confirm.

In the fifth stanza, he proclaims that human life is merely “a sleep and a forgetting”—that human beings dwell in a purer, more glorious realm before they enter the earth. “Heaven,” he says, “lies about us in our infancy!” As children, we still retain some memory of that place, which causes our experience of the earth to be suffused with its magic—but as the baby passes through boyhood and young adulthood and into manhood, he sees that magic die. In the sixth stanza, the speaker says that the pleasures unique to earth conspire to help the man forget the “glories” whence he came.

My understanding that Lehi was one of many prophets of his day. He was “visionary man,” which disturbed his family greatly. He learned to trust his dreams and when the Lord told him to leave Jerusalem, he pack up his family and left. Nephi, wanted to know what his father knew and because of his great faith, he was given the opportunity to see visions, and reported what he had seen. Wow… two prophets in one family.

Yes, based on the Hebrew definition, many prophets can and do exist at one time. Denver Snuffer fits in this category.

I find his words to be extra ordinary. They have inspired me to take a new look at who I worship and why. Through his admonition I have dug deeper into the scriptures, like never before. I have grown to love the Book of Mormon much deeper than ever before. I have never had more of a desire to strengthen my relationship with Christ as I do now. His writings and have had a powerful influence on me for the better.

However, with that being said, I have not yet had a witness that he replaces or stands before the agreement I have made to honor and sustain Thomas S Monson as the prophet of the Lord for His Church at this time.

I believe there are many who are “sleeping through the restoration,” but I don’t believe it’s Pres. Uchtdorf, nor his associates. I trust that they are guided by the spirit. I believe that we all kind of get into “zones” with the spirit, meaning that we tend to hear what’s in our zone, and then begin to feel that any other thing outside that zone is false. I did this with Ordain Women—feminism is outside my zone and I presumed it to be false. But her on Tim’s blog, and other blogs I have read a lot about the teachings of Jesus to study, ponder, and pray. Over the past year, I did this with OW and other sites. I have learned how narrow my zone is and that the Holy Ghost, the testified of all things true, is far greater than all our zones put together. And beyond that. And still beyond that. Perhaps the Brethren do not sleep, but have “zones” also– more zones then we do, perhaps, but still zones.

I have read all DS’s books and most of his blog. I have a hard time getting past my zone sometimes with a few of his teachings. But far and away, I have felt the spirit when I’ve read his writings. He has blessed me to search, ponder, and pray with greater faith and hope. So has Kate Kelly. So has John Dehlin. There are others who have helped me grow closer to the spirit and the Savior, when at first assessment I would have been sure this could not be the case.

They did this to Samuel, the Lamanite. They shot arrows at him to destroy him. Because he wasn’t a Nephite? In Nephi’s presidency? Because he wasn’t Nephi?

It’s worth noting, for the benefit of the SCMC reading here, that there is a big difference between Brent’s statements that he was ex’d for, and what Tim is saying here. Brent said that Snuffer is a prophet and Monson isn’t ; Tim still proclaims that Monson is a prophet.

A reader, your post makes me wonder WHY you would want to point something like this out. Are you part of spy on the members committee? I might be wrong but if I remember things right, Brent said he hasn’t received a confirmation/answer/testimony that Monson is a prophet and that he felt Denver is a Prophet like Joseph Smith is and that there hasn’t been a Prophet like Joseph Smith since Joseph Smith died.
Tim, thank you so much for this blog post. I understand where you are coming from and completely agree with you! My best!

I did not see a reply button under your last comment so I will use this one. I am not really offended, I wanted to point out that what I remembered was different. So for your behalf and those who are in the spy on the members committee, I will copy paste a part of Brent’s comment he made to a 70 that was interviewing him. (which by the way, I totally do not think anything Brent said online was something he should have been excommunicated for! The church makes up their own definition for apostasy and I don’t think that is right!)

Larsen: ………. I mean, I’m just saying I don’t have a testimony of Thomas S. Monson. I’ve asked; I just haven’t gotten one yet. Maybe I’ll get one later; I don’t know. And yet, by the same token, I think that Denver Snuffer is, but he has no keys, he has no authority, he can’t get—what—who cares? It’s so unimportant that it’s amazing to me that it’s—I mean, I said in my, in the letter and, you know, in the thing like I believe Luke was a prophet. And I don’t think that that’s not okay. Luke was never a member of the quorum of the twelve apostles, and I really think Luke was a prophet. It’s just my definition. By the same token, I think that the Doctrine and Covenants gives that mantle and that title to Thomas S. Monson, and I sustain him as such. But that’s different from having had a witness that he is.

AND Brent said in this statement that he Does sustain Monson…..so I do feel like I want to put this “out there” for people to read….I get putting our own opinion of what we understand what people say….but clearly…I do believe Brent was clear in what he said. Brent does not even know who I am, I am not related to him or anything…..
By the way…spy on the members committee…I too know that Denver is A Prophet…In the TRUE Biblical Sense!!!

I have followed Tim’s blog, and many others, and have felt to share some things on occasion. I have always been one who likes to see the best in people even if I didn’t agree with them.

It is the desire of all of us to be understood in what we say or do. We also seek to understand what other’s are sharing with us. Indeed Bro. Covey said it best in his book, “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People”, ‘seek first to understand, then to be understood’. This is great counsel. It feels good in my soul and expands my understanding of others.

I have seen so much judgement in some of the statements here. One has no right to interfere in the path another takes. For me to judge Denver I would have to understand the man, the mission he feels he is on, and the sum total of his life’s experiences. At the least I would have to read all of his books in order to judge the man. No one should be judged in ignorance. That’s not in the gospel plan.

I sense that too many have judged Denver Snuffer on perceived injustices they feel he has committed. He is a humble man and one who wants no following. He wants no accolades from the masses. He shy’s away from any kind of “worship the man” in any of its forms. Is he bold in his statements? Yes, of course he is. He has practiced his profession very successfully; and as an attorney he speaks matter-of-factually. He shows both sides of the pictures as I would expect an attorney to do so. That does not make him “anti-Brethren”.

Let the Holiest Father work his work and then measure the fruits. As far as I can tell in everything that Denver has published he has sought to bring others unto Christ and to the Father. Let them be his judge. We have to be careful on how we judge another who may very well be doing what the Lord has given him to do.

As Joseph Smith said the priesthood is “an onerous responsibility” and not something to benefit from. As soon as we engage in any kind of hypocrisy or ridicule by virtue of the priesthood then “Amen to that priesthood” (D&C 121).

Tim is a humble follower of his God and I hope he has the strength to stay the course that he believes the Lord has placed him on. We should all feel so impressed to help each other bear one another’s burdens and thereby live or take the higher road.

Brigham Young: “Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question – Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it ? I answer, no ! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived; the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice.” Journal of Discourses 1:133.

Please pardon me for not being engaged in the dialog here today. I have been in meetings and with friends for most of the day. It has been a day of fasting and prayer. It has been a day of counseling with my bishop. Because I love my bishop and value his counsel, I am going to take a break from blogging at least until after I return from Las Vegas and St George on the 25th and 26th. I look forward to reading and responding to your comments, including the private emails, over the next few days. Thank you to everyone who shared their thoughts.

There are several places in the bible and the BoM where we are told that prophets (plural) came to preach and warn the people. These were men not necessarily in the leadership of the religion. I don’t understand why people today would reject that notion when it is clearly scriptural. The difference is that they may not hold all the keys, as the lds leaders do, but they are prophets none the less. I don’t have the exact verse at hand, but I believe it was Moses who said he wished that all men were prophets . Let’s study the scriptures people!

“Update: 7 July 2014 – At the request of my local priesthood leaders, I have reverted the blog to an earlier version that does not contain the controversial / offensive posts to orthodox / conservative LDS readers.”

Well, at least I have some email newsletters, but I REALLY REALLY enjoyed your perspectives on so many things that I have wondered about AND you have hlepd me STAY faithful in the LDS church ((((church)))

Is there a way of making your “removed” site like a private FB group for those that see HELP in your posts?

It was pointed out to me that the blog is archived in Google and Yahoo, so why remove it from public view? All that does is punish my readers who want to continue the dialog. I have restored the DNS links to the original site and look forward to reading and replying to your comments.

My agreement with the Bishop was to wait until after I returned from the Vegas and St George lectures. I very much want to share my impressions from the Ephraim lecture. I will have to do that in the comments here. I also want to examine both sides of this question about prophets from outside the hierarchy. The pushback from the orthodox membership was overwhelming. I obviously touched on a sacred cow – follow the prophet.

It’s apparently verboten to even ask, “what if he’s incapacitated,” or “what if he’s expressing his opinion?” Are we no longer encouraged to get a witness of the truth for ourselves? I’m not trying to evoke doubt. It just seems there’s an element of our membership that is very, very uncomfortable with even asking questions. Why is it so wrong to ask questions? Isn’t that how we get answers? Sorry…didn’t mean to go off on you there.

Yes, I fully intend to continue blogging. I tried to take the blog down in an effort to remove access to this latest post that is apparently so offensive, but all it did was get me dozens of emails asking for private copies, asking for the dialog to be restored so they could continue it privately and asking if the latest post could be transfered to the backup blog. It seemed pointless after so many reminded me the posts are always out there. The Internet never forgets anything, does it?

Indeed. I’m ashamed to admit that in my missionary set of scriptures, that infamous sentence on the Lord never allowing any man to lead the church astray is underlined in bright red. I wish I could say it had been crossed out and rejected, but I bought the notion, hook line and sinker for a long time. Oh well, live and learn.

In regards to your interest in the question of prophets being called from outside the priestly leadership, here is one precedent established by the Book of Mormon. There are, of course, others. But it clearly lays out a point in history in which prophets were called directly from heaven to go to the people, bypassing the leadership of the churches, who then conspired in their chagrin to protect the men who murdered these prophets.

3 Nephi 6:20-29
20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.

22 Now there was no lawyer nor judge nor high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land.

23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death.

24 Now behold, this was contrary to the laws of the land, that any man should be put to death except they had power from the governor of the land—

25 Therefore a complaint came up unto the land of Zarahemla, to the governor of the land, against these judges who had condemned the prophets of the Lord unto death, not according to the law.

26 Now it came to pass that they were taken and brought up before the judge, to be judged of the crime which they had done, according to the law which had been given by the people.

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.

The scriptures are filled with examples of prophets not only called from without the hierarchy, but sent from heaven to call the hierarchal leaders to repent of their wickedness. It’s such a recurring theme that it should be rather hard to miss. It blows my mind that people who claim to study the scriptures are offended by the notion that there could be “non-hierarchal” prophets today.

I also want to examine both sides of this question about prophets from outside the hierarchy. The pushback from the orthodox membership was overwhelming. I obviously touched on a sacred cow – follow the prophet.

It saddens me that you get push back from members about the propriety of the idea that the Lord could send an authorized messenger to deliver a message from outside the hierarchy when it is so clear from scripture that that is how the Lord has always heretofore operated.

It may be a modern day orthodox belief but I don’t believe it is defensible as an orthodox perspective anytime before at least 1890.

Because He has spoken one word cannot the Lord speak other words? (2 Nephi 29:9)

Has the Lord our Redeemer done his work and turned over all of his power to men? (2 Nephi 28:5)

As Charles Penrose once said when ask about restoring the method of ordination to the priesthood vs ordination to an office in the church, “why if we do that, they’ll have the same authority that we have” Maybe it has something to do with pride and control eh?

Hi Tim, I’m a long-time reader of your blog and have never posted a comment until now. I’m thankful that the “uncorrelated” version of your blog is back. I truly believe the Church needs people like you, faithful people who have doubts and ask questions, to be heard and not silenced. I am praying for you that you may remain in fellowship with the Church. Rom. 8:28, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

The fact that so many people would be so very offended at the idea that other prophets could be sent by God exterior to the LDS general authorities, or that the LDS church could in any way be in error is very telling of the extreme idolatry and priestcraft had within the LDS church.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.
29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion. (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 26:28 – 29)

The LDS church sets itself up as a light unto the world. They set the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve up as a light unto the world. They do not teach the fullness of the gospel, to include the Second Comforter, nor do they seek to establish a Zion where Christ dwells among us. Rather, the light is all on them. Just look at the curriculum. The LDS church is guilty of priestcraft and of casting out the Lord’s prophets sent to warn and teach the fullness of His gospel. Furthermore, they seek to enforce their priestcraft with the sword of church discipline.

I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that unless this is repented of very soon this will prove the entire downfall of the LDS church as we know it today.

This is indeed a very sad day. I pray that there will be at least one Alma had among the modern priests of wicked King Noah.

Tim, your meekness and submissiveness to your “priesthood” leaders is like crazy righteous. In your shoes, I don’t know that I could be so meek and humble. God bless you my friend.

Okay, finished the homework assignment. Being an optimist, I’d have to say that . . . it’s better than nothing! 🙂

Seminary:

Those members of the Church who devote themselves wholly to righteousness, living by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, make their calling and election sure. That is, they receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. (Bruce R. McConkie, as quoted in Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual, Lesson 138)

Institute:

Jesus promises the saints that they can have, here and now in this life, the following: (1) The gift and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost . . . the revelation and the sanctifying power which alone will prepare men for the companionship of gods and angels hereafter; (2) Personal visitations from the Second Comforter, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, . . . and (3) God the Father . . . shall visit man in person, take up his abode with him, as it were, and reveal to him all the hidden mysteries of his kingdom. (Bruce R. McConkie, as quoted in New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, John 13-17)

In the revelation on priesthood, . . . the Lord says that the Melchizedek Priesthood is everlasting; that it administers the gospel, is found in the true church in all generations, and holds the keys of the knowledge of God. He says that it enables the Lord’s people to be sanctified, to see the face of God, and to enter into the rest of the Lord, “which rest is the fulness of his glory.” (See D&C 84:17–24.) (Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith, 164)

Recent General Conferences (more subtle):

The example in the Book of Mormon of “many, exceedingly great many” (Alma 13:12) in the ancient Church who were pure and spotless before God is a source of encouragement and comfort to me. I suspect those members of the ancient Church were ordinary men and women just like you and me. These individuals . . . “were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God” (v. 12). And these principles and this process of spiritual progress apply to each of us equally and always. (David A. Bednar, “Clean Hands and a Pure Heart,” October 2007)

These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the “more sure word of prophecy.” What was once a tiny seed of belief for me has grown into the tree of life (Jeffrey R. Holland, “Lord, I Believe,” April 2013)

Someone has made a comment earlier that Samuel the Laminate had a prophetic message, even though Nephi was still THE prophet. A notable difference in this scenario is Nephi didn’t cast-out/excommunciate Samuel or his message. When the fullness is rejected . . .” they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people” (3 Nephi 16:15)

Now, it’s easy for us to give lip service and root for Tim and prod him on.

And I think Tim wrote elsewhere that he will follow what the Lord commands him to do, even if that leads to excommunication.

But I’m curious:

If Tim ever does get excommunicated, will we, to show our full support, ask to have our own records removed? At the very least, will we make bold public statements and let our local leaders know about them?

Or will we just shrug it off and think, “oh well, that’s kind of too bad, but that’s just Tim’s problem now”? Do we safely (& many anonymously) hide behind Tim’s blog and use him as our “fall guy”?

I think it would be best if we “followed” what the Lord would have each one of do. It may not be the same for everyone. I for one would probably make public statements that I disagree with that course of action-if that ever happens. I would let my local leaders know what I think IF I am prompted to do so by the Lord.

It’s not a matter of how to “root” for Tim. Like letyourlightshine, I believe the Lord will ask different things of each of us.

For example, I am also dismayed by the trends in the governance of the church. I also have been profoundly affected by the writings of Denver Snuffer. Honestly, I don’t care if he’s a prophet or not–what does that have to do with me? He has been a catalyst in my life, helping me change for the better. And that’s what I believe a true prophet should be: a catalyst who inspires others to believe in God and repent, not a leader we owe obedience to. So the label “prophet” makes no difference to me.

I also feel no compulsion to reconcile what I believe about prophets, the last days, and the priesthood with the doctrine and tradition commonly accepted by the Church. Either I’m right or I’m not; either my beliefs help me down the path toward righteousness or not. I try to search for truth as I ponder the scriptures, and look for things that bring forth good fruit. I try to follow the guidance of the spirit as I choose how much to share with others in gospel discussions.

So far, I have felt impressed to keep certain things to myself and never say anything openly heretical at church, although I have been prompted to cross out of people’s comfort zones–it is good to shake the foundation a bit, so those who build on sand become aware of the fact sooner rather than later.

I think maybe the Lord is putting the church on trial, and so He chose a few people through which to do it. It would explain why Tim feels compelled to force a confrontation with the leadership, although I think Tim is anything but confrontational. If he is excommunicated, I will mourn and pray for him because I know it will be hard on him and his family, but I will continue to do what I have been doing in my own branch until the Spirit tells me otherwise. We each have a role to play in what comes next; there’s no bandwagon, just the script God gives each of us individually.

Excommunication is such a huge deal, socially, in our church that I cannot see gentle-hearted Tim wanting others to bring it down upon themselves and their families in the name of solidarity to a friend.

That said, if Jesus directs you to do so, then by all means, follow Him. 🙂

I was not silent in mid-June when Kate Kelly, John Dehlin & Rock Waterman were all notified of their impending discipline. I was told clearly that I was not to be a mute witness to that bullying, but to speak up.

But with nearly everything else so far, I have been told to publicly hold my peace and bear record of what is happening all around me. (Online discussion seems to not be “public”, for which I’m glad.)

As others have said, let me add a third witness: we must listen to and follow the Lord as events continue to unfold.

Of course Tim will insist that we not follow him, and he won’t blame us for any adverse outcome. He’ll take full responsibility for his choices (good or bad).

However, should this be our message? “Tim, you go ahead and keep doing those things that could get you excommunicated. Oh, by the way, I myself (fortunately) have a different path, one that keeps me safely away from disciplinary action. Good luck!”

“We will boo your opponents and walk with you to the cliff and watch you jump off. We are not you, so we don’t absolutely know for sure if you’ll fly and soar, or crash and burn. But as for us — we will carefully climb down; we’re not jumping with you.”

Is this true unity?

I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes [current temple recommend] and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags [excommunication] and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38:25-7)

I am in Tim’s ward and serve with his stake presidency, so I’m probably closer to the situation than anyone else here. People (including my daughter) come up to me privately asking about Tim. Now, we could brush them all off with a wave of our hand, thinking, “Aw, they’re all spiritually weak.” However:

Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge . . . and their conscience being weak is defiled. . . . But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. . . . And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:7, 9, 11-2)

1) Do you love your spouse more than your cherish your fears? Fear is the enemy, and God NEVER works through fear.

If the answer to #1 is yes, then it’s time to lay those fears down, because exploring whatever it is that the other spouse is learning about is vital.

2) Pray. Immerse yourself in scripture. And pray more.

3) Find God, for yourself. For real. So that you have the fruits & gifts of the spirit in your life. So that you have a living, breathing connection with Heaven that informs your every day, your every thought, word & deed.

Julie: On the day of the Ephraim lecture, Carol was in Farr West for a family reunion. She knew how much I wanted to attend the lecture so she surprised me by renting a car for me to drive down to the lecture.

We have hotel reservations for both the Vegas and St George lectures. She may or may not attend the lectures with me. I hope she will. We have not worked out our differences with how we each feel about what Denver Snuffer is sharing, so we try to focus on the message of Christ. Of course, that’s the subject of Denver’s next lecture so I’m really hoping she will feel comfortable with attending.

Tim, I empathize with you. I wish the climate and culture of the Church were different today. Alas, it is a titanic ship that does not turn quickly. Although I don’t see why it couldn’t if the presiding brethren made some bold decisions. It also seems that western, corporate, even Babylonian, culture has penetrated our beloved institution. We still haven’t really shed our persecution complex and self-defense reflexes developed during our cloistered inter-mountain polygamy phase.

This I will say, and it may sound like a warning, if you value your membership, you should avoid touching – and this seems to include questioning or theorizing outside the traditional narrative – the sacred cows, or golden calfs as you might see it, of “prophet”, “priesthood”, “keys”, and “witness of Christ” – which seem to be guarded very jealously at present. In other words, proceed at your own risk. People are being spiritually executed (excommunicated) for touching these topics (I’m not saying it is ratified by Heaven). Denver suggested that something was lost with Joseph’s and Hyrum’s deaths – he touched on priesthood authority vs power, keys, a view of our history interpreted by prophecy and scripture that paints the saints more as having failed to qualify for and establish Zion (some fairly obvious facts) – he was ex’d for proposing and publishing. Brent and Will were ex’d for declaring in some way or another that Denver was “a prophet” (not “the Prophet”) – and even with all the caveats they added, like not to be sustained, not holding keys, not for the Church, etc. – they were both ex’d. All of their appeals to the First Presidency were denied.

It is true I wrote a book [Passing the Heavenly Gift]. But the book is overpriced to discourage its purchase [true that, $26 on Amazon for the paperback]. It is not easily available, not advertised, not promoted and I’ve never handed it out to anyone. I think it is true. But it was written to help, not hurt. I think it does help.

I believe Joseph and Hyrum died in a worthy cause. I think the energy and light that exploded onto the world through Joseph Smith’s ministry has powered the LDS Church since his passing. Joseph’s profound effect was so great that, even in the absence of any leader even a fraction of Joseph’s stature, the LDS Church has been able to amass followers and do some considerable good. The absence of another leader like Joseph has slowed the momentum, and now the energy is almost entirely gone. But that does not change the goodness yet to be found inside the LDS Church still.

The forces who are in control of the organization are working harder to stifle what little light that still remains. But those who see this should not desert the battlefield. Stay and testify to what you know to be right. Fight against the darkness. You can be holy even if those around you are not. Read the circumstances in which Mormon and his son Moroni lived. We have not yet fallen to that state.

There are problems to be sure. Why run from them? Why not confront them by your quiet example, your goodness and firm testimony of truth? Why not bring to the attention of others what they have not yet noticed on their own? If they cast you out, then it is their doing, not yours. Let them be the aggressor, and you stay true to the Lord and His path. It is better to offend them by your example of righteousness than to take offense at their example of unrighteousness. Christ is your example.

He asks some provocative questions there at the end. Why not…? There may be some reasons why not, but fear should not be one of them. But rather our reasons should be based on faith. Be bold, be true, be faithful. If the Lord inspires you to speak up or stand up or go and do something for Him, do it! If their are unjust or unrighteous repercussions from doing His will, even from within His authorized institution, well what do you expect? We’re here to obey Him and sacrifice to Him, to obtain light, truth, grace, faith, hope, and love by our diligence and obedience. His grace and Atonement allow us to continue on this path which leads to eternal life.

Responsibilities of work and family have not allowed me to respond to the dialog as I had hoped. But I do read – or at least quickly scan your comments. I have literally forty or fifty private messages in addition to the comments here. I simply can’t respond to them all. I feel the need to make some general comments. I hope and pray they are inspired.

First, an expression of love: If, in our dialogs here or elsewhere, we find ourselves criticizing each other, then perhaps we should stop and ask what we are trying to accomplish. I blog as an expression of faith and as a means to grow. It motivates me to study the gospel. I truly enjoy your comments, when they are filled with compassion for others.

The question being discussed is the possibility of the Lord sending prophets or messengers, or servants, from outside the hierarchy of the church. There is ample scriptural evidence to support this conclusion. It is obviously contrary to our traditions and even some modern scripture. I know this idea infuriates some members of the church. I debated long and hard with the Lord if he wanted me to share what I did in the post.

This is not about Denver Snuffer. It is about personal revelation and it is about receiving messengers. It is about the temple and about the way the Lord instructs us in this world. It is about the current mantra of the church, “Follow the Prophet,” which apparently precludes any other source of revelation or direction in our lives. That is a false doctrine. Sometimes the Lord may ask us to do things that seem to go against our tradition, or what it is we interpret to be “following the prophet”.

I wish I had the time to go through President Monson’s conference addresses and other recent talks from whatever source. I wish I could compile his words on listening to the still small voice, of following the promptings of the spirit. He is well known for doing just that. His visits to those who needed him are legendary. We can be the same way. I so much appreciate the calls and visits from some of you who reached out to me, seeking to know my heart and to know what I’m trying to do here.

My Bishop and Stake President have been most kind and patient. They are NOT exercising control, compulsion or dominion in any degree of unrighteousness upon me. I delight in the dialogs with my bishop, which I have promised not to divulge. I know he is concerned about me. I am trying to follow his counsel. I also recognize the “tone” in my posts, especially this one, is not in harmony with the way we normally do things in the church. I knew that when I wrote it the way I did.

No, I am not looking to get excommunicated. Yes, I have publically stated I would accept that if it were the judgment of my local leaders that I am in a state of apostasy. No, I am not asking anyone to follow my path. Yes, I have fasted and prayed about what I am doing and will continue to do so. No, I am not trying to weaken or destroy faith. My goal is to come unto Christ. I assume that is also your goal, else why would you be here? If we are not focused on Him, then all is in vain.

I express my love for you. I don’t care if you disagree with me and feel I am an enemy to the church. I am not. I love this church. I have no ill will toward the church, the leaders of this church, general or local. I simply feel the church does not have a corner on the market when it comes to revelation. The church should not be the only source of guidance and direction for our lives. The Lord expects us to seek and find truth from whatever source. He will lead us if we ask for his help.

I love the Savior. Please don’t doubt that. For those who feel I have gone beyond the mark, please don’t judge me. I thank God for the organization He put in place with Bishops and Stake Presidents to give us counsel. But in the end, it is the Lord to whom we should be most responsive. As strongly as I know how to say it, please get this: If you want to come into His presence, He may ask you to do something that may not make sense to our traditional way of things in this church.

You are very welcome Tim. Most leaders, local and general all want to do the right thing. Sometimes it isn’t the case, but generally it is. The problem isn’t with the local leaders. They follow instructions from the Church handbook, which they pay obesiance to. It is the structure that is flawed that causes a ripple effect across the church. There are many good men following flawed structure. Therefore, no judgment is forthcoming to them. But to not go outside this structure displays spiritual immaturity, since all are important to the Lord and each journey is unique to us. Therefore judgment from the Church should be characteristic of that. The stamp of apostasy is indeed institutional. The book, “So You Don’t Want To Go To Church Anymore” is a great representation of the “protecting the institution at all cost” concept. The book is beautifully written with dialogue by a man named John, who is thought to represent John the Beloved, but no one knows. The individual salvation must come before group salvation. Follow the brethren is group salvation. We all know the immense pressure upon your actions day by day and the careful mental process you have to go through to walk this fine line. May we all have love for one another

Tim, I see your pain and dilemma and wonder how many remember George W. Pace. He was a religion professor at BYU some years ago, and wrote, what I consider to be a great book, on a similar subject, even though it was small as to the number of pages. In it he admonished the reader to “come to know Christ” on a personal level. The book soon got him in hot water with the brethren as some college students had misinterpreted his teachings to mean that one should pray to Christ, which was never his intent, nor was it taught in the book. In the end he was chastised in public, at the BYU Tuesday devotional, by Bruce R. McConkie. The book was called “What it Means to Know Christ”. In it he endeavored to teach how to accomplish that all important task. I started me on what I called “my Pace project”, a work still on progress. And he even very strongly advocated the position of the brethren and the importance of sustaining them. In the end, however he did as the brethren required of him, i.e.., retract the book from print. They had determined the basic premise found therein, false doctrine. The doctrinal counsel given by them was “follow the brethren”. The book was not on the correlated reading list. This even though one of the 12 came the following week, in his office at BYU privately and apologized for the actions of Bro. McConkie, saying the quorum had to show the appearance of harmony. I am pretty sure the visitor was Boyd K. Packard. Deseret Book put it on the junk book table and sold all copies for pennies on the dollar. Then soon it could not be found at all, except at some used book stores or websites. Brother Pace possesses one of the sweeties spirits I have ever known and is kind to a fault. He also has 12 children. One of those children was in the audience at the time, while preparing for his mission at the MTC. Not sure his final status but he did all he could to remain in the church. Bro Pace never lashed out or probably ever commented on what had happened but I know it broke his heart. He loved/loves the church and the brethren.

Do you mean that I have read, listen to, and pray about everyone outside of the hierarchy of the church who claims to have a message of truth and repentance and coming unto Christ? Ain’t nobody got time for that.

The Book of Mormon shows pretty clearly that we must pray always. When we live that way, we are able to recognize truth when we encounter it because we are listening to the Holy Spirit. The Lord continuously offers us knowledge and light that will bring us back to Him. It’s our job to keep an open heart & mind and recognize messages from Him, whatever form they take.

Reminds me of the following dig against science in general: “The number of rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon is infinite. . . . If the purpose of scientific method is to select from among a multitude of hypotheses, and if the number of hypotheses grows faster than experimental method can handle, then it is clear that all hypotheses can never be tested. If all hypotheses cannot be tested, then the results of any experiment are inconclusive and the entire scientific method falls short of its goal of establishing proven knowledge” (Robert Pirsig, ZAMM, 100).

I was praying one day and the following words came into my mind: “All knowledge is a gift from God.”

Yes, how blessed are all of us to be able to receive personal revelation, knowledge, directly from God!

We don’t have to study every single religious text on Earth before making a decision on a religion.

We don’t have to investigate the claims of every single person on the Internet who claims they have met the Savior (there are many).

Once we know the truth, we are freed from need to explore other hypotheses and options.

I actually did take the time to read the full text of Denver’s visit to my town. He said that his message wasn’t for me: the correlated member, the sheep, the ones that are satisfied with the narrative. Well, I know a prophet who has a message to share that IS for everyone. I know a prophet who loves me and loves my family and prays for us daily. His name is Tommy Monson and he has taught me to seek The Lord’s face too.

I may not have as much time as I want to delve into the mysteries, but I’ll tell you what I did have time for last week. I had time to drive 60 minutes roundtrip to the furthest reaches of my ward boundaries on a dirt road to visit a woman whose mother, in another state, called to ask me to go check on her daughter because she feared she was suicidal. I had time to help a another sister move because her divorce is final and she has find a cheaper place to live for herself and her five kids. I had time to sweep dog poop for four hours because another sister is suffering with depression and allowed her dogs to use the whole house as a litter box.

As I served my sisters, I looked in each of their faces and I saw the face of Jesus. I saw Him who served and saved us all. Not because I’ve read Snuffer books, not because I was smart enough to follow Tim’s blog, but because I served.

So I hope when Denver reaches that high-horse heaven and he sees me down below in my lower echelon, I hope that he has the charity to come down and do a little missonary work and give me another chance with his only-for-the-special-people message, because I was busy doing other things.

I wonder if you understand Snuffer’s message when he states that he is not speaking to those who are “satisfied” with what they have. He is not being condescending at all.

I just sat through a week of training for AP chemistry teachers. (I am NOT one of them…yet.) Most of what I heard went completely over my head. I wasn’t even capable of assessing whether I was hearing “truth” (but I suspect I was) because I didn’t even understand the subject matter well enough to have a rational basis upon which to form an opinion. It was all “gobbledigook” to me! Ever been there?

Those people “summoned” to Snuffer’s discourse have “seen the light” regarding their current state. They know what they have (and don’t have) and see definite incongruence and truths that are not being addressed by the Church that they believe are essential. They are not, for the most part, weary of well-doing. They want more. (Is that so bad?) They want to experience more. Like Nephi, they want to see and hear the same things that their “father Lehi” saw and heard. They want to “know” for themselves.

That seems to be a fairly “scriptural” proposition, does it not?

Is the Church offering that?

Not from my point of view. The Church offers less and less. It is becoming increasingly more restrictive and compulsive in administration, while simultaneously more vacuous and repetitive in instruction. We are consequently going in circles, not “pressing forward” as a Church.

If you’re satisfied with what you have, that’s fine! (What I’m about to say is not meant to be condescending; it is just a fact.) Children who are happy riding tricycles (and not bicycles) are not ready for bicycles. And some children, thinking they are ready for bicycles — when they’re not — try to ride them anyway…and fail. It’s life. That’s the way it works. Those who “press forward” do so because they want to…because they can. Those who don’t…don’t.

No compulsion. No put-downs. No judgements. We are all growing at our own pace. And that is good.

Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice”. We hear Him when we’re ready to hear Him.

“Individual members of the Church, the major strides which must be made by the Church will fall upon the major strides to be made by us as individuals. We have paused on some plateaus long enough. Let us resume to journey forward and upward.”

Both Denver and Tim both advocate coming unto Christ and neither has advocated leaving the LDS Church. In fact, both have been strong supporters of it. (One still is.)

I was a strong supporter of the LDS Church, too, until “they” excommunicated me a few months ago for apostasy. They claimed I taught false doctrine. What did I teach that was false? They wouldn’t say. But they used the fact that I agreed with Denver Snuffer — an “apostate” they “created” — as “evidence” that I, too, must be an apostate. And so I was “out”!

“Surely thou art one of them: for…thy speech agreeth thereto.”

What did Denver teach that was false?

To my “ear”, Denver speaks the truth. Does that make the LDS Church “false”? No. Must one abandon “milk” — or claim it is “bad” — in order to eat “meat”? No.

Eat “meat” when you’re ready!

The LDS Church leadership are now unjustly persecuting and maligning those who refuse to keep quiet about what they know to be true about the Church (its doctrine, history, etc.) and about God (His doings, witnesses to us, etc.). They (the leadership) are demanding allegiance to men as if “following” any man is equivalent to following God. (It is not and never has been.)

The whole “LDS thing” is rapidly devolving into idol worship — worship of men, temples, programs, etc. Church leaders, convinced that their own “salvation” depends upon their own slavish devotion to and deference shown to men (but only toward those men, ironically, who are higher up the perceived “pecking order” of “priesthood authority”) actually use the threat of withdrawing that “salvation” from others to coerce and compel compliance with their wishes. Their will and words, in effect, must now be followed with the same deference and devotion that one would show to Christ Himself.

Or else.

One who truly “has” priesthood, by contrast, says “Follow God. Come unto Christ.” He doesn’t interject himself (or anyone else) unnecessarily into that relationship…because he knows that higher priesthood itself is only “obtained” by gaining knowledge from God directly, in association with Him! (It cannot be conferred by the laying on of hands by mere men alone.) Anything else is certainly less, with no real “power” to speak of.

Priesthood is not about power and control. It is about helping others connect with God. It is the ability to serve others as directed by God. And, for some, it is the responsibility to open the doors to the chapel on Sundays, to pay the power bills, and to organize who does what (by invitation only). For others, it is the “authority” to perform ordinances. Other than that, there’s not much “priesthood” in the LDS Church nowadays. Very few (if any) in the Church are actually communing with God (beyond receiving the influence of His Holy Spirit).

For those who wish to (or who have) come unto Christ in the flesh, the LDS Church is a fairly unwelcoming place nowadays, unfortunately.

Good Will, on July 11, 2014 at 8:45 am said: This is exactly the same doctrine that is taught by the Catholic church, i.e. infallibility of the pope, for he is the Vicar of Christ on the earth, namely His spokesman and the only one who can speak with or for God. Why is that any different than current LDS practices and teachings.? It seems that almost all organized groups/churches have the same mantra.

I will be there. If you plan to go make your hotel reservations for St George now .There are other conventions in town and I had to try 3 different places before I could find a vacancy. The other piece of advice is get to the Las Vegas venue early if you want a seat. Last time there were probably 500 people in attendance. Hope to see you all there. Save me a seat. Boo

Note: The Ephraim talk is now online for free download at Scribd : http://www.scribd.com/doc/233544493/Ephriam-Transcript-Christ. How can anyone claim this man is teaching false doctrine? I still can’t believe the church cast him out. If you have trouble getting the lecture, let me know. I have it in both text, PDF and Audio. I am studying it this weekend. I also have all the previous talks in the same format. You should buy the audio files from Doug at http://publishinghope.info

“Don’t have a hard heart. Don’t be blinded by the lies, the half-truths, and the incomplete things that you are taught by those who are trifling with your souls. You may disagree with me, and you are entitled to do so, but I declare the things He has declared to me. The truth matters while I do not. God cares about your salvation and offers it to you. But you must rise up to become like Him, and have no time to idle away with foolish cares. You have no time to waste participating in false, vain and foolish religion.

The Lord Explained To Me, Using Scripture, The Things I Now Declare To You

“I know there are arguments against me. There are also reviews written about the things that I have said. There is no criticism made against me, no scriptural exegesis an orthodox member of the Church can advance that I did not advance in argument with the Lord. I have made better scriptural arguments against doing what I’ve done than those that have been leveled at me. I had more scriptural proof to discourage the Lord from asking that I do any of this stuff. I argued with Him! And the Lord has explained to me, using the scriptures, the things I now declare to you.

I’m Not Here on My Own Errand

“I’m not here on my own errand. If I were doing what I wanted to do today, it wouldn’t include any of you! Well, I guess it would include my wife and she is here. I was a careful and devoted student of the LDS Church. I trusted Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. I was a disciple of the Brethren. I could quote them, because I was converted to follow them. There was nothing written by Bruce R. McConkie I didn’t own and hadn’t studied. When he came to BYU to criticize Brother Pace, I was in attendance at the devotional. I felt bad for George Pace, but I believed Elder McConkie.

It is Impossible to Please Both Christ and the LDS Church

“In my faith I was the strictest of true believing Latter-day Saints. Therefore when the Lord appeared to me, He appeared to a faithful, devoted member of the LDS Church. At first I believed He did so because I was a faithful Latter-day Saint! But the Lord knows more than do I. I’ve never won an argument with Him. I labored to reconcile all I knew with all that was asked of me, and found it impossible to please both Christ and the LDS Church. I made my choice. None of you are more devoted to the Brethren today than I once was.

No Institution Will Substitute for Knowing Christ

“You say you are in “the Lord’s true church” and I say unless you know Him, no institution or gathering will substitute. Life eternal comes from knowing Him, not another man. Even if a man is sent to declare Him to you, focus should be on the Lord, not on His messenger. Only a false messenger, who seeks approval, and who hopes for gain, will divert attention from the Lord to himself. A true messenger would not dare do so.

The Lord Has Spent More Time Teaching Denver than Joseph

“I am not explaining these scriptures to you because I think they might fit together in this way. Like Paul I can declare, “Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.” (Acts 17: 23.) I have read all of the accounts Joseph Smith left behind of his visits with the Lord. If you add them all together, still the Lord has spent more time with me than with Joseph. I attribute that my poor understanding, the harness of my mind, my inadequacy as a pupil, my stubbornness and my stupidity.

The Lord knew the Church would Cast Denver Out

“I defended the Church to the Lord. I was a latter-day “Pharisee,” like Paul. I explained to Him why He needed to honor the Church, and asked that He let me do so also. He told me that they, not I, would sever the relationship. He told me they, and not I, would be accountable for that. And He told me that was in His heart for a long time beforehand to let the scriptures be fulfilled. I was His instrument to accomplish His purpose, which He has now done.”

” I had more scriptural proof to discourage the Lord from asking that I do any of this stuff. I argued with Him! And the Lord has explained to me, using the scriptures, the things I now declare to you.I am reminded of the “The account of Jacob wrestling with God/an angel is a story found in the Book of Genesis, and referenced elsewhere such as Genesis 35:1-7 and Hosea chapter 12. The account includes the renaming of Jacob as “Israel”, literally “He who struggles with God.” It’s correct principle.

“If you will receive it, faith in Him comes by hearing the word of God. Not by a pretender, not by someone guessing, not by someone offering up their theory of how the scriptures ought to be understood. Faith does not come by hearkening to someone citing you a bibliography. Faith comes only by hearing the word of God delivered as He would have it delivered, by whomever it is that He may choose to deliver it.

Receive God’s Word From Someone He Sends

“If you receive God’s word sent by someone He sends, then you might have faith, and that too in the Son of God. Then you also might receive Him. But if you will not, if you will harden your hearts, if you will blind your minds, if you will not receive what He offers from His mouth in your day, then you do not have faith in Him. You will fall short of that faith required to become His son and His daughter.

Either I Am a Liar, or I Have Been Sent

It is that way, it has always been that way, it will always be that way. There is no other test. Therefore, either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I’ve said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril!

It Requires a Sacrifice to Do What I Am Doing

“It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I’m a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I’m saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I’m talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing.

I Am Come As A Second Witness

“I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine. He (Christ) was in the world and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. Why did the world not know Him? The world did not know Him for the same reason people would not know a messenger when one is sent today.”

“This is the seventh of ten talks I will give. In these I bear testimony as a witness to the truth. I would not blame you for thinking I am doing this to get noticed. That is not true, but it is the obvious thing to accuse. Unless, of course, what I declare to you is Truth and is Light. If I am telling the truth, then how you respond is important. I would ask you, for your own sake, to not falsely accuse me.

You Do Not Need to Like Me

“You do not need to respond to me. You do not need to like me. You do not ever need to mention my name again. But if what I am saying is the truth, you need to respond to it. This is between you and God, not you and me.

I Am Not Going To Be Your Leader

“You need to choose how you will live your life from this day forward. The Lord is coming to judge the quick and the dead. You need to get right with Him. I am not going to be your leader. I am not going to form a church. I am not going to do that because it would not work anyway. But you can be healed, you can come to the Lord, and you can live your life differently. Look at the same scriptures in a new light and let His Spirit fill you and make a difference in the lives of others.

I Do Not Want You To Rely On Me

“I do not trust myself to innovate. I will only say what I have been told. I fear my weakness, and my inadequacy. I fear offering up my own ideas. I do not want you to rely on me. Do not do that, when I am asking you not to do so. You rely on Him.

He Is Not Going to Make it Easy For You

“Just remember, when He speaks, I have described how He came! He is not going to do it differently. He is not going to make it easy for you. He is not going to tell you: “I’m going to put my thumb print on this, and here’s the hall pass. Who wants the hall pass?” Nor is He going to declare about some leader: “He’s got the hall pass! Follow him! He can never lead you astray! And were he to do so, I will remove him!”

Beware of Lies and False Doctrines From Institutions

“These are lies and false doctrine offered by institutions who claim to possess keys of salvation. They claim God has finished His work, given His authority to men, and therefore they have the power to redeem you.

I Offer You No Such Pretended Keys

“I offer to save you using no such pretended keys. I only offer you the Lord. I ask you to give heed to Him. I will tell you no man can be trusted for all men are weak. Even Peter, the night of the Lord’s trial, was a broken reed. If you put your weight on that, it would pierce your hand. That is what men are, but not who our Lord is, for His course is straight. He does not even cast a shadow to the right or left, for His course is true.”

“I bear witness of Christ. I have seen Him! I know He lives! I know He is coming in judgment, and I know that before His coming, He has wanted some things to be declared. I have been as faithful as I can be in declaring the things asked of me. I sense keenly my own inadequacy. I beg you to overlook all that and not let me become a stumbling block. Look at the scriptures, look at the words of Christ, look at the explanations we got from Joseph, look at the things that are true, and go to Him in faith believing.”

Denver Snuffer, Ephraim Lecture, p. 75

I attended the Ephraim lecture in person. I purchased and listened to the CDs of the lecture earlier this week. I have read the lecture this evening. I feel the same. This man is a servant of the Lord, sent to us with a message for us to ponder, contemplate, hear and to which we need to respond. There are invitations in this message, mainly to overcome our own inadequacies and limitations of our own lack of faith. It will take courage to respond to the invitations contained in this message. Such responses may cost us dearly. But they are clearly from the Lord, at least in my mind, and not from man. God bless.

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The scripture you quote does not address Christ’s kingdom being divided against itself. That scripture refers to us the people not the kingdom. Christ is not going to tell the brethren one thing and Snuffer another. There is no middle ground here.

What has Christ personally told you about His kingdom? What does the Holy Ghost testify to you? It really is a soul splitting experience, what is upon us (and yet, we must be one, wholly congruent). It appears as though we are experiencing just such an endgame sifting scenerio.

As an aside, how you define Christ’s kingdom, would certainly influence your interpretation of the initial scripture. Christ’s kingdom is not being divided.

So who here thinks the Savior is going to give conflicting revelations and instructions to the brethren and Denver Snuffer? That would be dividing the kingdom against itself…..and the Savior has already stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Again my tone is one of humility and not attacking whatsoever…..we all learn from each other.

noche32, how do you reconcile Joseph (“ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed”, TPJS 169) and Isa. 24:5 with the Brethern changing the ordinance of the temple endowment in 1990, eliminating the penalties which were a key part of Hebraic covenant theology?

I know a Father’s love. It is compassion and charity that both the church (TM) and Snuffer are available. There is no conflict, although they represent two very different “destinations”. They are dichotomous enough (and the consequence of that choice great enough) that you will only be able to reclaim one of the paths, not both. The conflict is within you, and your heart. Once that is resolved, and there is both peace and congruence, you will step forward in identity and relationship … and really neither will matter.

I understand we only reconcile ourselves to Christ……but no one seems to want to answer the questions directly concerning a kingdom being divided against itself. Again, Christ is not going to give different revelations and directions to the Brethren and then to Snuffer cause that would divide the kingdom against itself and thus it cannot stand.

When a kingdom is in disrepair, what non-earthly methods would you use to repair it? Prophets in times past did one thing: preach repentance. When the Nephites slackened after the Saviors interlude and the ancient Christain Church did the same, do we know the pains the Lord took to recover? There will be things done soon that you may not be able to explain. If you take the immovable stance that the current kingdom is not in disrepair, you will have resigned yourself that the Lord cannot do marvelous things. Seek for truth and do not get caught up in years of a belief system that cannot be changed. My heart goes out to your journey. Truth always comes out in front eventually.

Time of the Second Coming
This item needs to go up the flagpole to someone in military intelligence who will put the Russia-China military drills of 8May2015 on the watch list. The date of these drills couples very closely with the previously developed Second Coming time-line for the [described in Isaiah] start of a sudden attack on Egypt [Isaiah metaphor for modern America] starting a Major War. Below the time-line on Second Coming events is described in brief. Real world events do come together with prophecied events.
A timeline on the Second Coming was developed in 2008. Time-line data was obtained only from the scriptures and nothing has been learned that changes the time of these coming events as previously related and reviewed below. Should someone have data to tell the time different, please send it.
The scripture-based Second Coming timeline write-up can be sent upon request. The purpose of this send is to have as many people prepared as possible.
Thanks,
TedC

8May2015 is a possible date for the start of the WOE 2 War as described at Revelation 9:12-21. Such may be under the cover of a Russian-Chinese joint military drill. Why is it that these 8May2015 drills are publicly announced so early on 9Jul2014? Are these drills to be a cover of other intentions?

Russia, China Hold Military Drills to Strengthen Bilateral Cooperationhttp://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140709/190857987/Russia-China-Hold-Military-Drills-to-Strengthen-Bilateral.html
BEIJING, July 9 (RIA Novosti) – Russian-Chinese joint military drills are aimed at strengthening bilateral cooperation, not threatening alleged enemies, Kremlin Chief of Staff Sergei Ivanov said Wednesday during a meeting with students from Beijing University of Foreign Languages.
“We are sovereign states, we are not carrying out these drills against somebody. We are holding it to strengthen our bilateral cooperation. We are not violating any international laws; it is a sovereign choice of two states,” Ivanov said.
The official noted that Russia and China held their first joint military exercises in the mid-2000s, which met a mixed response from the West.
Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping recently agreed to hold joint drills next year to mark the 70th anniversary of the victory in the Great Patriotic War, a term used in Russia and other ex-Soviet states to describe the conflict between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany during World War II.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_in_Europe_Day
Victory in Europe Day, generally known as V-E Day, VE Day, or simply V Day was the public holiday celebrated on 8 May 1945 (7 May in Commonwealth realms) to mark the formal acceptance by the Allies of World War II of Nazi Germany’s unconditional surrender of its armed forces. It thus marked the end of World War II in Europe.

The timeline prepared from the scriptures shows where we are in the last days with The Second Coming at the Feast of Tabernacles 2016 (15Sep-2Sep2016). Timing is based upon the meaning of the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles and the eclipses (Gen 1:14-16, Matt 24, Luke, etc.). The series of two Blood Moons and two Solar Eclipses in 2015 tell the year of the Second Coming as 2016. The Feast of Tabernacles tells the time in the year of the Second Coming (Numbers 29 & 30).
In Rev 18;10,17-19 we are told three times our corrupt, fiat, Babylonian money system comes down. John tells of the merchants lamenting, “Who will buy our goods?” The dollar and most other currencies are central bank fiat currencies and they are extremely inflated by printing presses. Many economic experts say 2014 is the year for currency collapse. Read at http://www.jsmineset.com for one source of daily news references and on-going economic analysis and commentary. Jim Sinclair is a “gold bug” and promotes metals for wealth preservation. What Sinclair reports, references and summarizes is ominous and likely true – only who in the time of food shortages will sell their food for gold or silver?.
World events must come together with prophesied events. A dollar collapse per Rev 18 will end much of commerce as we know it and the stores will be without food. Hence the coming need for a year’s food storage (to be needed starting this fall and needed for use over the next 12 to 24 months). America without food in the big cities leads to BIG Problems – Isaiah 6:11-13 – and the cities are emptied. Each needs to read is Gileadi’s Apocalyptic Commentary of The Book of Isaiah to help all comply with our learning and understanding of Isaiah per Christ’s commandment at 3 Ne 23:1-5. The King James Bible version of Isaiah is so difficult that most miss most of Isaiah’s messages.
Heber C. Kimball prophesied of a time of civil fighting – “neighborhood against neighborhood and city against city.” Kimball does not say why, but it appears that the coming contest is over “Who has the food?” Such unrest and fighting will empty large metropolitan areas.
A dollar collapse will largely end American’s ability to defend and police the world. Food shortages and the internal fighting will limit American’s ability and effectiveness in defense. These developments in America will be seen by Russia and China and they may invade and start the Woe Two War of Revelation 9:12-21 because recent Western actions in Ukraine have resulted in anger and there will be no one to stop invasions. Read: “Putin clearly sees all moves of the West.”http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140701/190805021/Putin-clearly-sees-cold-bloodedly-counts-all-moves-of-the-West–.html
Read the related side-bar pieces also.
The duration of Woe Two is a year, a month and a day wherein an army of 200,000,000 soldiers cause the death of a third of the world by war plus another third by plagues. This sequence and timing of Woe Two is reasserted and at D&C 77:13. The Woe One War of 5 months was the Gulf War of 16Jan1991 – 16Jun1991. The 7th Seal opened some time in 1990. The Woe Two War results in the conquering of the World, hence “the end of all nations” per D&C 87:6.
The Mathew 25 10-virgins parable is about the Temple Recommend holders; 5 have food storage and 5 do not. Oil in the parable is a metaphor for something that is purchased, is stored and is consumed – that is food storage. Those without food storage do not make it through the “no food in the store time” (winter 2014-spring 2015 and maybe until spring 2016). Hence they do not meet the Bridegroom Christ who comes to his church – the Church of the Firstborn (CFB).
The salvation out of this situation is that after the invasion (beginning about May2015), Rev 12:6 tells of the church going into the desert – that is the CFB. The CFB is the formation of Zion here on the earth, which The Lord has to do to keep his covenant with Enoch and is formed out of modern people in captivity (likely us). Such is a repeat of when the Israelites were led out of Egypt when they were in captivity. Isaiah tells that a cloud will shelter and warm in the winter and shade in the summer, as does the D&C.
In the season of the Second Coming, Christ makes at least four public appearances. The Coming of the Bridegroom to CFB (about Jun2015), Adam-ondi-Ahaman (about Jul-Aug2016), The Glorious Second Coming at the end of the 6th Seal (Tabernacles 15-22Sep2016 and still we do not know the day or the hour), and 3.5 years later to the Mount of Olives (about Passover 2020).
Things will be moving fast. All we have to do is be good, have our temple recommend and have food stored. Tell your kids and friends. The papers written and detailing these events can be sent upon request. In spite all of the above, commerce in some form will occur, life will continue, and marriages will be performed. After 2020, Life will be better during the Millennium.

I would ask how you define “being good”. Is it being able to check off the boxes on a list of do’s and don’t’s assigned by the church policy of our day, or is it in constantly pursuing greater obedience to the Lord in everything He asks us to do, moment by moment?

The Way has never been easy . . . but it will be worth it.

If we are walking in total obedience to Jesus Christ, He can take care of the rest. Walking in obedience may very well include socking away food storage and having a temple recommend, if that is what He needs us to do. But He may tell someone else to buy land and build a large home. Or take out loans and study their guts out to learn a certain skill set. Or something else, entirely. Abraham set the pattern of obedience . . . but we are not all asked to bind our children to altars.

Water into wine. Food to feed 5,000 from a few loaves and fishes. Healings, revelation, protection, and all the rest. We need to stop listening to the good ideas of mortals and find out what the Lord Jesus Christ asks us each, individually, to do, every day, even with every breath.

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” ~John 3:8

The word translated “bloweth” in that verse means “breathes”. The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, and it breathes new life into us each moment we choose to listen to and obey God.

indeed; the parents of the little LDS children who are going hungry now around the world cannot afford food storage–

I am skeptical about any EOTW scenarios taken from the bible; the Book of Mormon says very little about it–

Frankly, IF I have the $ to invest in food storage and other righteous saints do not, I don’t think I will be blessed. And if they are in Guatemala (I have no hungry saints near me; most of the members in my area have more resources than I do)–

I don’t think I will be counted as more righteous; I used to get ‘into’ this kind of thing; not any more–

Nice scenario; however it doesn’t even come close to Skousen and Crowther. The half hour of silence is 21.5 years. When did the 7th seal open? It may be hard to take this as absolute when there will be no buying and selling coming, for span, 7 years peace in Israel, a temple built in Jerusalem, Crowther says there will be war between the Bear and Eagle, the eagle will be victor, we will be praised and then our internal society will break down. All this from the scriptures. I think these blogs should point to spiritual refinement which will help us to be ready for such events, but not look to someone’s interpretation of a timeline. But thank you for your mega involvement.

It’s okay with me that there are multiple theories. I think the moment of panic I had earlier when I read TedC’s comment was healthy: “oh crap, maybe I’ve only got a couple months before the world ends!” I fervently hope it’s not true, and that we all have a bit more time, but I’m grateful for the wake-up call, no matter what form it takes.

There is a book called the Harbinger that addresses dual prophecies of Isaiah. Isaiah 9:10-11 talks about judgements with the initial attack from Assyria. Israel in their arrogance said, “We will rebuild, we will make it stronger. That is exactly what happened on 9/11. We said the same thing. Now you have to add the years from the first attack until the sweeping of the nation of Israel and that will give you the time of the attack forthcoming in years from the first warning of 9/11. Isaiah Chapter 9 is our judgement.

the parents of little LDS children who are starving to death are probably blessed not to have access to Crowther and Skoussen (just men)–

but I have a feeling they are spending more time praying for food for their children or a way to get it than worrying about what the Lord will reveal to a bunch of white people up north (all of those who are starving are in places far south of most of *us*)–

and they certainly don’t know that they will need to go and hear Denver Snuffer’s lectures or be locked out.

I think it’s time for realism; are *we* thinking, we foolish gentiles, only of ourselves, or can be spare a piece of heart for members of the church who are trying to feed their children in South America, Central American, Southeast Asia and Africa–

or . . . the children who have no parents to feed them?

This is all so myopic. I think that Denver Snuffer is probably a very good man; he very well may be on a God-sent, unique, individual mission, but I can tell you that there are people “out here” who are struggling to get through each day who are FAR from where he is and who are already relying for every little thing from the Hand of God–

possibly those parents of hungry children and those little LDS orphans in Africa . . .

don’t really need Denver Snuffer right now–

and those of us who pray for them all night long–

and do as much as we can–

already know that the Lord is there and that our culture is doomed–

forget about EOTW scenarios; a culture as selfish and self-absorbed as *ours* cannot go on much longer. We deserve it, until we get on our knees and cry for forgiveness for being so fat and foolish.

The High Priests in our ward spent the ‘4th’ in the home and on the acreage of a very wealthy family in our ward, and they paddled around out on the lake in pontoon boats–

and had very nice food–and talked about light things–

well, not all the high priests; some were not well enough to attend–

Tell these people about Denver Snuffer, and you will get laughed at or mocked; tell them about the hungry LDS babies/children, and you will get complete scorn.

I apologize for the anger (towards the bible, I guess) that is coming across in my post(s).
I do feel some anger, indignation, whatever. Reading the Book of Mormon every day for many decades, using it on a mission, always tied to the bible, I did not know the book. At all.

3 years ago I felt God telling me to stop reading the bible and focus on the Book of Mormon, but I had this large-print quad (bad eyesight, not young anymore–LOL!)–

with all the doodads in it, all those little letters, etc., etc.–
(the TG)–

and it still wasn’t a ‘book’–

but I kept on, and then about 4 months ago I started Smith’s reading project–

and I saw for myself what a ‘job’ had been done on LDS for 180 years. If there has been a heinous conspiracy, that has been one. Works of darkness–

to cover up that book. I’m still trying to process the intense feeling of betrayal.

Interesting that a grandparent of mine about 50 years ago told me that that had happened (no details, nothing like Smith) and gave me a little warning. But I didn’t have the context, the framework, to understand. My entire family was deceived, all my missionary companions, thousands of ward members from dozens of wards–

it was done so handily; it was done so incredibly well, with so much skill–

how many other things (in the world and church) have been stumblingblocks?

A person has to stop and take a deep breath and pray for the strength to go on.

Thank you, mm. Your comments, in context, make perfect sense to me. (I wondered if you were referring to Daymon’s stuff, since during my lifetime, the Book of Mormon has dominated the Bible pretty handily . . . except that not many folks are reading the Book of Mormon, either.)

To illustrate what Denver said so succinctly about the expression of virtue in one life not looking like the expression in another’s, just over a year ago, I was prompted to mostly read the Bible. I participated in our family’s daily Book of Mormon study at night, but my personal study was nearly all Bible . . . both New & Old Testaments each day.

As I read the Bible, using a few different translations, I learned two things that absolutely revolutionized my relationship with God, and pulled down two strongholds of unbelief in my life.

From the Old Testament, I learned that our God is powerful beyond all understanding, and He waits, patiently, eagerly, willingly, to step in and work mind-blowing miracles in our lives. The children of Israel believed He could, and even in their pouting and complaining, He did. (Water from the rock, manna & quail in the desert, etc.) He healed, He provided, He revealed, He protected. In crazy huge miracles. On nearly every page. He is no respecter of persons, and will do the same for us, if we don’t prevent Him through unbelief.

From the New Testament, I learned Jesus’ incredible love for us. I can’t point to any specific passage . . . it just felt like the NT was a series of love-filled letters from the most devoted and tender-hearted and lion-hearted dearest friend ever. I saw Christ rescuing those completely unable to save themselves, all because they honestly and earnestly believed He could. And He did. His soul was full of beauty and love and kindness and forgiveness, even when His life was filled with poverty and rejection and hardship. (Apocrypha says he came from a long line of poor & hard-luck folk.)

The OT showed me His power, and His willingness to use it, even for the children of Israel in their rebellion and blindness. The NT showed me His love for the one, the lost, the hurt, the seeking.

I would encourage you to, when you have given your hurt and betrayal to Him and He has healed your soul, to take another look at the Bible (I love the New Living and Amplified Translations), and see what He can teach you from its pages. Jesus is the Healer, and the Great Teacher. He knows what you need, and He will supply your want. 🙂

I know you don’t mean to patronize me–
I have spent years and years studying the Old Testament and the New Testament. I took a class from one of the most renowned Old Testament scholars 43 years ago at BYU, and he was not ‘popular’ at all–
He now has achieved a degree of respect for his work. I studied the New Testament at great length. Perhaps, in fact, indeed, I had many of the experiences you had. I used to enthuse and sing over the Old Testament and the New Testament, and I taught my children from those books.

I have associated off and on for many years with Christians who know their bibles inside and out, and they have told me that I am one of the few people they know who is not a “Christian” (bearing in mind that many despise LDS beliefs and sometimes even the people)–
who knows the Bible.
I don’t think the betrayal will go away. I think that my time is past for the bible. I may not have much time left here anyway, and I will focus on the Book of Mormon. This is what I have felt strongly that I need to do. I almost have a physical revulsion when I see the bible or hear or read of people talking about the bible. Or quoting from it. The betrayal is permanent, believe me. I am not a Mormon, if not for the Book of Mormon. I could just as well be anything else. But God led my ancestors to this church, and I inherited it, and I know He approves of my being in it. I daresay very few people, and I don’t know them, have ever become as deeply and emotionally involved with the Book of Mormon as with the bible, since there have been many centuries of cultural experience with it. And since it got hidden for 180 years in “Mormondom”.
What I need to beware of is not to scatter my own feelings of repugnance for the hijacking that took place, by *my own* ancestors or their living peers.
I do not follow Denver Snuffer. I am reading Daymon Smith. I know he puts his own twist on things, but his copies of original documents say it all. If a person reads his entire books, cover to cover, it is hard to deny or ignore. I am concerned with all the ‘following’. Mormons love to follow.
I am probably too enthused about my new beliefs about the Book of Mormon (which to a great extent pre-dated my knowledge of Daymon Smith by years; I literally was told to stop reading the Bible long before I knew about the work of that young man)–

and need to realize that each person must make his/her own choice, so I probably am doing no good on any Mormon blogs. I don’t follow Denver. I don’t think that those who ‘follow’ him or attend his lectures or read them, etc., realize how they are separating themselves and even looking askance at those of us who don’t see the need to attend to Brother Snuffer. I feel TERRIBLE about what happened to him, and it makes me sad and powerless-feeling. But I have felt the cold shoulder from those who are enthusiastic about him, because I am not. If I were to meet the man, I daresay I would not share with him my close encounters with Diety. Perhaps the Lord has told him to do so; me He has not.
And my new feelings about the Book of Mormon and that I scarcely know the book after reading it every day for 37 years–
(and before that on a mission and for classes, etc.)–
are probably really not welcome. I daresay I am helping nobody.
I know how enthused people on here are about Denver Snuffer. I have no doubt he is a fine man. I do not live in the intermountain west, and I have no connections there, and I have no plans to visit there or no need or desire or ability.
I apologize if I am obtuse. Or unkind. Or even close-minded now, after years of trying so hard to keep all the windows open. Or whatever I might be. I am rarely around people anymore, so I might have lost my ability to say things in ways that are not offensive. For now, if it’s not in the Book of Mormon (with a few, very rare exceptions of some things Joseph might have said in the D&C, and I am wary of those)–
I don’t want to hear it. I realize that this is the sort of thing that happens when people become old(er) and infirm and no longer have a finger on the world–
and I realize that I can be laughed at easily–
but I am closer to that other world many times than this one–
and I feel an urgency to say what I say about the Book of Mormon while I can–
to anyone who might listen. I have a feeling very few will. Mormon blogs are my only ‘platform’.

I just realized, Annalea (and I have appreciated your posts wherever I have found them)–

that as I was talking about my experience with the Book of Mormon and the Bible and the feeling of

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you;

(Ether 8)

“awfulness” that I have experienced, dismay, disappointment, a feeling of having been deceived–

combined with this:

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

(section 84)

and the urgency I feel, and how mostly since I have felt that I need to bear my witness of the Book of Mormon and of the travesty that occurred with regards to it–

I have been patted and smiled at and indulged or ignored pointedly–

and you bore your testimony of the Bible in response to what I am feeling–

and, I admit, that waking up is painful (I woke up politically 35 plus years ago, and I have been awake to the problems of the corporate church for at least two decades)–

and not necessarily a ‘happy, joy, joy’ thing–

so I may seem a bit of a curmudgeon, and people don’t want to hear–

but you bore your testimony of the Bible to me in response.

The irony is actually making me chuckle now. Thanks for lightening my day.

Before I served a mission I attended two non-LDS universities (BYU was my last visit before graduate school, and my only church college experience, and definitely the inferior experience with few exceptions)—

my experiences in grade school, junior high and high school were ‘solo’ Mormon–

and I spent so many decades trying to prove that *we* Mormons loved, adored, followed, read, studied the bible, so that people would not throw rotten things at me–

and now . . .

an ostensibly fellow Mormon, when I rise up in all the strength I have left to . . .

quaveringly say, “Read the Book of Mormon, please, please”–

bears her testimony of the Bible to me. I needed to laugh. Thank you.

Sometimes when we have an inner fire we need to quench it with some humor.

I know Jesus heals. I have not given up on Him. He has not given up on me. I hold His Hand day and night.

I am coming back to admit that I made a mistake, probably a serious one.

I have been trying to ‘convince’ people of what I believe is the urgency of reading the Book of Mormon and using that book to Come Unto Christ.

I didn’t bear my testimony or my witness.

Well, the fact is that I don’t have one, not about the Book of Mormon. I have one that I have been led to focus on that book, but that is just my own personal experience, though it is mine. I am not claiming that God has told me to tell anyone else what to do. And that is part one of my mistake–
part two is that I didn’t bear a testimony. This is my path, and I have no right to tell anyone else what to do.

I followed all the ‘rules’ with regards to the scriptures for years, and I did all the praying at the moments when *we* were told to pray (about the Book of Mormon)–

but now I realize that I don’t know the book at all, and that is after reading it every day for 40 years. I read it with the gadgets and doodads in it–

Now I am reading it with no doodads, no little letters–

just the book, and the difference is kind of ‘scary’.

So, the only thing I can witness is that after 40 years of reading the Book of Mormon every day, because I read it with the Bible pasted over it and on it–

I did not get the essence of the book at all–

I was blinded somehow; it really is kind of frightening now to realize that that happened. I mean, HOW?

But reading it alone, all alone, I am beginning to feel something I’ve never felt before.

I hope I gain a testimony of it. I do have a testimony, very real, of Jesus Christ–

but I know now the mistake I made, and I am admitting it.

I have no business telling anyone else to do, but I can share my experience, and that I just did. 🙂

And thank you, mm, for all you have shared. I have honestly enjoyed our exchange, and with this final comment, I can see the similarity of our experiences. The Lord led each of us to receive, from Him, the message He had for us from a book of scripture we had neglected. And our lives have been revolutionized as a result.

Thank you for your humility, your earnest desire to help and warn, and your rare openness of mind. Whenever I come across someone whose heart is as yours is, I rejoice, because it is such a blessing. 🙂

mm: I am interested. I thank you for sharing. You prompted me to ponder my own experiences with the Book of Mormon. I was blessed to read it out loud with my mother, a new convert herself, before I was baptized. I can literally say I learned to read through the Book of Mormon, along with a lot of Peter Rabbit books 🙂

For me, I find my study of the Book of Mormon is by subject these days. For example, today I am studying the subject of how fear keeps us from the blessings God intends to give us, and I specifically mean manifestations of the spirit – answers to our prayers. God bless you in your reading as I pray the same blessings upon me in mine. Cheers.

Please relax and read my comment in its entirety. If you read the parallelisim with my comment concerning TedC, it was not promoting the timeline. There have been so many scenarios of last day stuff that if you subscribe to these, you will miss the spiritual preparation and only focus on the temporal preparation. I think a deep breath is in order. Rely on the Baptism of Fire and the Spirit will teach you all things that ye must do. It is insignificant that you know the hour if you are prepared spiritually; and you will consequently be prepared temporally. The Horseshoe prophecy states that if we follow the leaders of the church we will be spared. This was John Taylor. How does this sit today? The Spirit must be the driver and then no fear will resound.

There are alot of good people on here and I know you all mean well but for people who claim to follow Christ and not to rely on the arm of flesh, hang on every word Denver Snuffer says, It seems to me that you guys do rely on Denver Snuffer quite alot.

Sorry Nathan that is not what is going on here, people are relying on everything Denver says, People who rely on all sources, quote more than just Denver Snuffer. I for one actually like what Denver has to say but he is far from my only source, he is actually only one of very many.

@ BBB — I have to agree. I understand what you are saying. It is a step. Denver is playing a specific role, for a specific “family”. This particular family has some pretty “unique” qualities and attributes, and needed an individual who could / would walk a certain walk, speak a certain “language”. The transition had to be offered, and be facilitated by someone who understood all these variables.

Unfortunately, some will still struggle, get caught, because of their inability to see beyond the messenger to the actual message. They have simply traded one “Moses” for another.

You are absolutely right, truth is truth, and available from many “sources,” the most important being Heaven itself. By our fallen nature, individuals just tend to have challenges when it comes to drinking directly from “The” source.

Regardless of the vehicle, its just awesome to see the whole thing unfold … a collective awakening!

After the DS Ephraim talk it can’t be said he’s just “another” voice or source. He is either the biggest fraud and apostate we have or will see in our lifetime, OR he is what he says, a prophet sent in our day to set things in order for the return of the Savior, you can’t have it both ways after Ephraim anymore. He’s claiming the Lord is not and has not been speaking to the brethren, that the Lord is speaking to him! His message is follow the Savior NOT any man, including him.
The answer to that claim can come from the Lord only, not from reason alone!

Annalea I’m not sure if you mean me or not but I do love Denver Snuffer’s work, he is very learned and has opened my eyes to many things but I just believe he is one of many and if I am correct he doesnt really want a following, he wants us to rely and follow Christ through all sources.

I understand your enthusiasm for Denver. I too listen to his lectures and attend them as well. But he doesn’t claim the prophet status, just that the Lord wants him to say unto us what he has delivered. He doesn’t want the noteriety and wishes us not to think of him this way. Tim also is doing what the Lord wants him to do. “I would that we were all prophets”. We all will do some amazing things coming soon. But the attention on the title is not one of them. There will also come one mighty and strong. Maybe we don’t know yet just who this is, but it is more important we keep our eyes and ears open for truth, from whatever source. Thank you all for the interest in these things. You are awake!

Nothing to be afraid of. Denver has lived quite a lot longer in years than Joseph. Remember that Joseph’s main action as stated by the Lord was to translate. The Saints are the ones that demanded more and the Lord gave it to them. Time is irrevelant as to whether or not one foreordained calling has precedence over another. Denver claims he was subborn and lacking; that is why the timeframe. Goodness will eminate from truth. It will be found in many obscure places. I understand your concerns, but cheer up and be glad. Many beautiful things are coming.

Well before the beautiful things, always comes the ugly!
I too have read his books and talks. I plan to attend Las Vegas and St. George to FEEL for myself! But again, I’m afraid I already know the answer. And I’m not afraid for myself as much as for others, I’m in good standing with the Lord, right now I’m just working some things sure!

I appreciate your thoughts johnD. Perhaps we will meet. Opportunities are always daunting. Faith will eschew the ugly things for sure. No one is looking forward to the mechanics of what is transpiring, but the end result is what is precious. Look to that. Thanks for your response.

sfort
I agree with what your saying, I’ve been waiting all my life for this time (56 yrs.) My PB says 4 different times I will help in making things ready for HIS return, its now looking sooner than later! 🙂

I appreciate your bold witness, and I agree with everything you have eloquently stated. A couple of quotes come to mind about the current situation:

The Lord: “How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.” (D&C 121:33)

Adam: “These are true messengers. I exhort you to give strict heed to their counsel and teachings, and they will lead you in the way of life and salvation.”

Update: There has been so much misunderstanding in regards to my declaration above, I feel the need to clarify. Note I did not proclaim this man was sent to be a prophet within the LDS church. In fact, I thought I made it especially clear he was sent from outside the hierarchy. I did NOT proclaim him to be an LDS prophet. I declared he was sent to us as a servant of the Lord with a message for all who would hear it.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, thus my declaration that he was / is a prophet. I stand by what I wrote. Please don’t add inference that the messenger / servant I refer to has anything to do with the LDS church hierarchy. He is not part of the institutional church. Members of the LDS Church vote on our prophets. The whole point of the post was / is that this man was sent by the Lord with a message. I, for one, am grateful for that message.

Tim I think you are exactly correct. I, like others ,analogize his task to that of Samuel the Lamanite or Lehi . Both served as true messengers outside the existing hierarchy even though there were other recognized prophets at work simultaneously ( Nephi and Jeremiah). Certainly so far as we know neither Samuel of Lehi tried to set up their own church or organization. They delivered their divinely commissioned message and moved on as directed by the Lord. Neither was a “threat” to the existing hierarchy except to the extent that truth is considered dangerous

Some would say our Lord came with no particular bona fides or status….no particular standing or status….outside the institutional hierarchy of His day. Among other things he was a simple carpenter. fwiw

Intrigued and captivated as always by Tim and his expressions and by the many viewer comments. This seems to be the watershed post for Denver like minded thinking folk to come out and align with greater vigor. I love that you love our Savior and desire to follow and do his will. As I sit hear in the wee hours of the night and write–I am flooded with many many marvelous and miraculous and sacred experiences I have had as a Orthodox follower in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. I know something of precious and sacred experiences in the holy temple. I have been a participant/witness to many miracles through the holy melchezideck priesthood. I know something of having the veil thinned and being able to see. I felt incredible joy and my heart burn in the presence of Jesus. I know something of visions in the day and night. I have seen in vision our merciful Savior embrace my father (who struggled mightily in mortality ) as he departed this earth. I have been given profound witnesses of the Lord’s modern-day prophets and apostles. When I have not trifled with their words but have an open mind and heart and ears and have hearkened unto their voice The result has brought me all the closer to my Savior Jesus Christ. I have Served a mission and have had multiple investigators administered by by angels. I know something of the impressions of the Holy Spirit and hearing the words of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I have had it revealed to me through the Power of the Holy Ghost through many glorious weeping moments that Jesus is the Christ. I know something of evil and opposition and the efficacy of the priesthood to cast it out. I know something of hearing heavenly choirs in the early sacred waking hours in the morning. I know something of the efficacy and validity of the keys of the kingdom working and being alive in their proper order from the brethren down to local leaders. I know Something of sacred promises given to me of Glorious days ahead. These and many more heavenly wonders revealed to me in full faith and membership in the restored gospel. I do not wish to stand in judgment Denver. I do know however much of what Denver Proclaims runs contrary to the witnesses that God has given me. If you have a desire to know the truth and sustain the church as it is Presently constituted through a voice ( independent of the brethren but sustaining of) of great inspiration I would strongly encourage the direction of John Pontius. My love for you all, and a great hope and faith for all of us on that beautiful path that leads us to our Savior Jesus Christ.

All kidding aside, I respect and acknowledge your testimony shared. Thank you. And I don’t challenge or dismiss anything you wrote…except that last part.

If you had asked me on April 8, 2014 if the Church were “true”, I would have said “Yes!”…with the understanding that “true” does not mean “perfect”, “inerrant”, etc. (any more than my true family is any of those things). I would have stated that the Church is a God-appointed vehicle to do some of His work (namely, flood the world with the Book of Mormon, provide essential, basic ordinances, build temples, etc.).

Denver, myself and many others were willing to work within the system and abide by the current regime, showing due deference and respect to those in charge. We sought neither leadership nor following. The problem arose when those in charge assumed powers unto themselves which violated our agency, conscience and testimony.

Have you ever had a church leader pull you aside after Fast and Testimony Meeting and say:

“Stick to the testimony glove” (or, as they call it, “The five pillars of Mormonism“)?

Have you ever been told that if you have not received a personal revelation from God regarding Thomas S. Monson that you are not worthy to hold a temple recommend or even qualified to be a member of the LDS Church? (Which is quite bizarre inasmuch as I never so much as quibbled about the man! Nor did I fail to “follow” anything he said! How much “obeisance” is required to be a “good Mormon” nowadays?)

Have you ever been accused of teaching “false doctrine” simply for teaching that we follow Jesus Christ, not a prophet or that one must receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost in order to be “born again”?

Have you ever been told by one of your church leaders — one of the high priests who excommunicated you — that he never experienced any “baptism of fire”, neither had his father (a “two-timing” bishop!), neither had either of them ever had any interaction with Jesus (that they knew of)…and, yet, if it was good enough for them to be “saved” in the Church, by the ordinances thereof (so he said), then it ought to be good enough for anyone else and teaching anything other than that was clearly “false doctrine”?

Can you honestly say, with all your knowledge and experience, that leaders of the LDS Church have never “officially” taught false doctrine; openly disagreed with each other about subjects as basic as the nature and identity of God, leading millions astray; unfairly denied gospel blessings and ordinances to many; and committed whoredoms and abominations in the name of Deity, without revelation or doctrinal justification?

If not, then in what way is the LDS Church “true” and what justification would anyone have for “following the Brethren” and partaking of such folly? Could you not be more circumspect or humble regarding your “condemnation” of those who have simply acknowledged the truth?

Jared
I loved John Pontius, I met him and “Spencer” I felt the spirit strongly, the Lord led me to him. The message of coming unto Christ by following His spirit and receiving the second comforter in this life was his message, as is Denver’s. John had his enemy’s in the church for what he taught as does Denver. John was very supportive of the church hierarchy.
That’s where Denver differs, he’s been and is now critical of the hierarchy. However he says he has a reason, if the directive he claims from the Lord is false, he truly is an apostate of greatest proportion, if “IT” is real, it’s of great import to understand in my view.

JohnD, besides what I have witnessed which goes contrary to what D.S. Is teaching and what I -also- know to be of truth born of the spirit through J.P’s and Spencer’s published writings —as a result, D.S. Current promoting ideas are held in great doubt by me. I know from an unquestionable source That john Pontius who was a friend of Denvers he visited with Denver (shortly before he died) and plead with him to humble himself and submit to priesthood authority. John warned denver that he was on the path to excommunication. John stated that Denver went way beyond the bounds with his criticizing of the church and the brethren. Those of you who know Denver, he will validate this exchange, if asked. For some of you, this exchange will not make a bit of difference. Those of you who have had the spirit bear mighty witness of john Pontius and Spencer’s latter day witness –John’s exchange with Denver is very relevant…

Spencer was recently made bishop in his ward. his Stake president through inspiration obviously appointed him in this new calling. I also know that the brethren gave their blessing for this to occur. Those who have hearts and minds to understand know that there is a beautiful message in this occurring…..

Elder Maxwell stated: “whether you realize it or not you are generation drenched in destiny. if your faithful–you will prove to be a part of the winding up scenes of this world and as participants and not merely spectators–though on future occasions you might understandably prefer the latter”

I Testify that Joel 3 participants are among us in great number. God in his great mercy wants a prepared people. I testify that Christ wants to administer to us personally, in the flesh. I testify of the framework of Christ’s church through his presiding authorities etc are given for our benefit in this/these glorious pursuits and for our preparation in the redeeming of Zion leading up to his glorious second coming. Will we allow our hearts to understand– eyes to see our ears to hear and our minds to be open to these truths and further mysteries of heaven? It Is my fervent hope and prayer that we do.
Love for all, Jared

Jared
That’s awesome regarding “Spencer”, I can’t imagine a better bishop. I appreciate your testimony and I agree with it. However you are blind if you don’t see the issues we’re facing as a people, there is a dearth in the gifts of the spirit and a rejection to seeking after and trusting them. I have been in ward councils now going on 8 straight years and find it shocking the way most have abandoned receiving direction from the spirit and embraced direction from church manuals with the overarching ideal of group salvation vicariously through the brethren. I work one on one with men who have gone on missions, married in the temple with children who have no testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ, let alone the Savior or following Him as a true disciple and not a few, but many, if not most.
I’m no disciple of John Pontius or Spencer’s or of Denver, but the Lord has led me to receive messages that have helped me in gaining further light and knowledge in preparing to receive the Lords rest. Most of what I have gained has come directly from the Lord but He does use others to give additional direction, I trust He is here.
There is something wrong in the church, I’ve felt if for years, I’m keeping an open mind because as I have read the Book of Mormon I can plainly see it is prophesied in our time. I will NOT let any man, get between me and the Lord, Denver, or President Monson, but I am listening to both right now to see if an answer is found about how I’m feeling and what I see.
I too have received the baptism of fire and looking for more!
Your friend in Christ.

Nothing I or Denver says will steady the ark. In my opinion such things can only sow discontent and challenge testimonies and darken faith. He apparently sees his mission differently, which is just marvelous. Some must push, and some must pull.

Honestly, if the Lord came to me and told me to take a different tack — I surely would. But, He has not, so I bow my head and wait, and I support and love and honor those who man the oars, sails and bilges of the latter-day work. But, my calling is to stand on the bow and shout encouragement, not to fret about the depth of the water beneath the keel.

I also candidly give to Denver the benefit of any doubt that he may truly be called to say things that I am not. When I speak with him I feel the Spirit, I feel his goodness and his faith, and believe that he has seen what he claims. But for me and my house, we will stand in our Holy Places, and wait.

It may be of no interest to you now, but I did want to “clean up” a few things before I move on. Now that bd has quoted JP himself to practically refute the insinuations you attributed to him regarding DS, what is your response?

And would you please answer the questions I posed to you (a few comments above this one)? Not for my benefit, but for yours.

Jared wrote in part:
” I know from an unquestionable source That john Pontius who was a friend of Denvers he visited with Denver (shortly before he died) and plead with him to humble himself and submit to priesthood authority. John warned denver that he was on the path to excommunication. John stated that Denver went way beyond the bounds with his criticizing of the church and the brethren. Those of you who know Denver, he will validate this exchange, if asked.”

I must respond right quick:) the stepping o/s the bounds was a private oppinion held by John. The other stuff he did share with Denver. However I will keep the on record And not share any more off record stuff. You can count on that. It was made clear to me John’s respect and love for Denver. How beautiful John’s post was in describing this And other info. haring unquestionable sources causes consternation and I’m sorry for that. Looking forward to posting tonight. I have had wonderful thoughts course through my mind and heart inspired by posts:)

Denver Snuffer has certainly sent the first shot over the bow with his Ephraim talk. I remain officially neutral about what this all means. I recognize there are deep troubles in church administration, history, and doctrine as currently codified in the correlated, controlled, modern version we have been taught. I loved his Second Comforter book, which was doctrinal, and mainly quoted the scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. How can you fault that? I love the idea that any common member can progress until their C&E is sure and they ultimately reenter the Lord’s presence in mortality. So far I am right on board. However, that last book, PTHG, largely historical, is in my opinion, an absolute mess. I think Bro. Snuffer misses the mark on every main claim he makes (I think his interpretation is just plain wrong). Still, I would NOT have disciplined him over his writings (why are we so thin-skinned and intolerant in this church?) So, now we have the Ephraim talk, where Denver Snuffer is in effect, implying that He has it, and that the current Brethen, do not. The difficult thing here, is that no one has spoken with this much authority and voice since Joseph Smith. But, whether you like DS or not, make no mistake about it: this is leading to a confrontation of epic proportions. You may say DS does not desire a following, this is not about him, etc., but to me it seems like this is indeed leading to a showdown of Authority at some point. I must admit this is a lot more interesting than Sacrament Meeting. Will the amazing Bro. Snuffer pull up before he crosses the line and states it directly (that He is the Man, and the Brethren are in Apostacy)? Stay tuned–this drama is only going to get better. The Brethren haven’t had anyone on their hands to deal with like this, since John Koyle and his Dream Mine. Be of good cheer, and may God bless us all.

Karl: Great addition to the dialog. Thanks for adding your thoughts. Here are two links that might be helpful to 1) those who haven’t read PtHG and 2) to those unfamiliar with the Dream Mine / Relief Mine:

I think the stepping stone for me was the book “Nephi’s Isaiah”. It used Isaiah’s metaphor and dualism with Nephi’s take as to the state of the Church today. It was enlightening and well understood. Gileadi means well but he puts me to sleep. Denver’s book was the catalyst and was worth the short read.

Brother? good will, I feel your spirit-you are a good person. I’m sorry for your difficulties in the church. I will try to address some of your difficultiese later tonight. I’m a little tied up now father of five all under the age of 11 🙂 love for you my brother, Jared

Good Will: your treatment points out the real problem(s) with administration in the church. In my opinion, the Brethren have legitimate authority, but this concept of practical infallibility of the Prophet has gone way overboard. The central leaders are in effect, demanding loyalty to them personally (or to their offices) on a par with our allegiance to Christ. This is the problem. No men, even righteous and well-intentioned, should get in the way of our worship of Christ. Last testimony meeting one of the members in our ward called the President of the Church “our conduit to God.” That’s about the most Catholic thing I’ve ever heard in church, and a ridiculous idea. The church swings Catholic in terms of central authority and administrative, and at the same timing is swinging Protestant in terms of the teachings of coming to Christ, receiving Grace and Mercy, etc. It’s a peculiar way things are shifting and unclear how this will all end up. And you are correct: numerous (most) of the teachings that we believe are in the stone, hardcore mormon “doctrine” turn out to be nothing more than one of several plausible interpretations of what might be correct. The rigid, dogmatic Mormonism of the last 100 years is going to have to crack apart, before these things can be corrected. Watch closely because the next half dozen new members of the 12 are going to have a huge impact on the way the church teachings swing over the next couple of decades. Lastly: I will hope and pray that church discipline is reviewed so that people are not kicked out for what they hold as beliefs, especially where very few of these “doctrines” can be upheld under scrutiny. I would rather have a church where a million members have actually had the experience of Being Born Again and received the Baptism of Fire (as I have and I think you have too), then a million members that are dutiful administrations, but are dead as to the things of the Spirit (a situation I fear we do currently have). I would rather have a million Denver Snuffers, than a million High Priests snoozing through priesthood meetings. Best.

Nice comments. We could go around and around with this for well into the 22nd century. Isaiah spelled it out with Nephi when he spoke to us regarding the precepts of men. Jared pointed out in heartfelt emotion but was in error. The Church is not the gospel. Our everlasting covenant that has been broken according to Isaiah and Nephi, but this covenant is not with the church, it is with Christ. The powers of heaven come from Christ. The insitution cannot believe that with all the restorations that have taken place in the last 6,000 years, that we are special and the apostasy will never happen to us? It has happened to all the recipients throughout the years and there is as usual a cleansing and another restorative process.

History is as reliable as a teacher can be. But no, we will never fall because we are the special ones getting ready for the Lord’s return? You are not any smarter nor better than the Israelites, the Nephites, the Saints at the meridian of time and the early members of the restored church. The latest living characters always think they are the smartest and wisest. We need to put ourselves as low as the dust before our confidence can wax strong in the presence of the Lord. 2nd Nephi 31 outlines the beauty of what the Lord wants. No works established by an earthly institution will compensate. Alma speaks of our ordination in the beginning because of our exceeding faith and good works. Works for who? The Lord’s cause of course. The Church is under condemnation still. It hasn’t been lifted. We must cling to the Spirit to guide us and for some it will be a different journey. Peace out.

Sfort, let me clarify. I agree with Elder Maxwell: the church is the scaffolding helping to hold up the gospel. They very much are separate. Your last bit of advice in your email is spot on. Love for you, Jared

A few ideas keep swimming around in my head, that just have to be said. I have been walking this path a very long time; interacting, communicating and meeting with others, well, for just as long.

One of the distinctions that I made long ago was around “content” and “process”. Maybe I’m just stating the obvious, but for those not willing to through the baby out with the bath water (meaning, disregard a person entirely) … all of us share many of the same process-like variables. That is what makes people like Denver, John P, Tim (I use these three simply because of the “box” I’m speaking with). Concepts like compassion, charity, keys, priesthood, etc. are things that apply to all of us.

What typically gets people’s britches in a twist is when it comes to “content” or the specific ways in which individuals manifest these “process” like qualities, attributes and characteristics. Yes! we all fall short, screw up, whatever. But the “plan of salvation” is NOT a one size fits all! Times are truly winding down. EVER day, multiple times, I hear individuals say “I testify” “I know” “God revealed to me …” “The ONLY way is…”

There is no doubt that it can only strengthen a help each of us to love, support and hold one another in process, if that is all we can do. What fool, absolute fool, would trifle with another’s soul. What fool would stand in judgment over another’s path. The veil is thinning! The spirit is being poured out in greater abundance on all true seekers. It is time. And can any of us sit in God’s perspective and call out over another brother or sister and say “I know your identity” “I know your relationship” “I know who you are there … manifesting here”?

In content, we will begin to see things we have never seen before! Individuals are now and will soon be shedding their mortal for the immortal. Whether or not one believes, is the judgement really so important as KNOWING your own identity, your own relationship, having received your own calling and election… etc.

Jared — what a powerful testimony!! I have read your comments. Thank you. I genuinely love and support you. You the individual. How could I read your words and not!?

Having said that, I recall reading the manuscript of “Spencer’s” book (pre-publication). There were times that I WEPT through some of the experiences in the book, times that I cried the spirit was so strong — testifying of specific things relevant to me and my path. And then I got to about page 100 and I can not tell you what hit me. The spirit left and all but commanded me to stop reading. I couldn’t look at another page. What happened? Is Spencer deceived? Am I deceived … NOT my judgement. My point is … not my path. In addition, years ago I read Pontius’ come to the light book, and I attempted to wrap myself around his Zion book. Totally NOT my cup of coffee (humor intended). I mean no judgement at all. I’m sure, I know, they are both great guys… no doubt. BUT HONESTLY … we are boiling down to end game, and totally not the time to be aligning with “men” or “institutions”.

Jump forward, mid-June, God took me into the desert for the better part of a week. Unless commanded or directed by God to read something, this is my kind of learning / receiving. Alone (well, just me hiking), this brief sojourn was long over due, and gave myself and Father the needed time to really hash some things out. It isn’t important in “content” what was shared — would it matter? Sometimes Father picks us up completely out of our little boxes, little mortal roles and responsibilities to endow us with a greater understanding, perspective; and with that we are then inserted back into (sometimes the same, sometimes different) certain roles, responsibilities … with a greater capacity and / or ability.

We would all be well to find more supportive ways to walk the “extra mile” that is certainly coming … soon. The subtle judgments, ego contentions of my sensei can kick your sensei’s butt … we are only revealing our idol worship. We all need our best foot forward. Serious stuff is coming, and even if you don’t believe this or that … mortality itself, your soul, it is all so worth this important focus… YOUR identity, YOUR relationship, YOUR visions, YOUR purpose, YOUR intentions, YOUR intuition …

I apologize if my words got sidetracked or came out wrong. My intention was compassion. My intention was love, was / is pointing individuals to eternity there and then bringing back the absolutely very best of what is there to experience here.

My suggestion, we could all do better to loose the judgment and look inside our self. Work through our own junk and start singing the song we were sent here to sing. NOW, that is beautiful!!!

As always Tim, thank you, for the space your song created as a platform for discussion like all that is being shared.

Good will, surely I will respond.my phone and iPad are my only Internet. My battery died on my iPad last night:( it was very late, too. My heart and mind are not closed. Love the JP post. At work now. I love what I have read in these past few posts. I truly desire To speak more to these things. See you in the late hours of the evening early morning :)I

This is certainly a time of anticipation as we look at the dramatic reshaping of the world around us. This fervor is dramatically evident in the Church today.

I have been a diligent student of the scriptures, and heavy doctrinal books for better than 40 years: Joseph Fielding Smith, Talmage, Widtsoe, BH Roberts and McConkie and others. I have always sought for greater understanding of the gospel than what is presented in the correlated manuals.

Reading the Ensign and watching all sessions of the conferences.
have been inspiring, but my heart has rarely been set on fire in recent years.

When I read books like Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith, I have thought, “Why don’t we hear something like this today?”

For years I have sat at the back of the chapel listening to “Milk Toast” messages from the pulpit, many of them coming straight from the Ensign. Often I find it necessary to bury my head in the scriptures to keep myself from running out the door.

I have long given up hearing anything but “milk toast” in RS but have made up my mind that the messages are not as important as the fellowship and the spirit of love I feel from being among faithful sisters.

I have long quit going to the “Women’s conferences” twice a year because I cannot bare to hear one more talk about how “wonderful” we women are. Even though the speakers are sincere, those particular talks are all the same and feel condescending as they “Scatter Bread Crumbs.” (And no… I’m not asking for the Priesthood.)

My good, diligent, gospel loving sons always attend “General Priesthood Meeting” with their sons but often come away feeling a bit “Beat Up” as they seem to be continually challenged to “Get on the Stick.” They are faithful, and will continue to go, even though they don’t feel they get much positive reinforcement for their continued efforts.

Where does one go for a little “Meat” as with the old authors? The books now seem to be filled with “little stories.”

In 2008, a friend gave me a copy of The Second Comforter. I was so thrilled to be given a message of “Meat.” DS opened the scriptures in such a way that reading the “Book of Mormon” took on more depth…. especially Nephi… as the steps that he took to eventually see the face of Christ was pointed out. Simple, but such an appreciated revelation.

Since then I have read DS’s other books, followed his blog and have read the text of all of all his meetings this past year. All I can say is they have stirred my soul like no other messages have for a long time. During all the “Women and Priesthood” hoopla a couple of weeks ago, Denver put a post on his blog about Women that resonated more clearly about the value of women than any address I have heard from any pulpit in a long time. Soooo powerful.http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/06/women-witnesses.html

In his recent Ephriam talk transcript, I read, over and over again, the part about how women fit into the gospel plan. I wept and wept. For the first time I felt a “Real Place” in the gospel plan.

I sustain the Brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators and realize they have a challenge to nurture new members and keep those who are seasoned in the gospel message stimulated also.

Therefore, I’m grateful for messengers, such as DS who set my heart and spirit on fire, that make me want to be a better person and seek the Lord’s counsel first.

Thanks Tim for your blog, where there is a place for open discussion. You do it at great risk. I appreciate the other bloggers, like Will Carter, who put their neck on the line for such discussion but unfortunately have be forced to leave the membership. Some of the brightest and best are leaving or being forced out.

I fear the door has been opened for “witch hunts” against those seeking to have greater understanding and knowledge than what is provided for new members in the “Milk” commentary of the Church.

Goodwill, let see—where to start. first off, it saddens me that you’re not a member. Are you working to get your membership back? What has been the process for you? Hoping full membership can be restored for you in due course. That such a course is important to you?

Bruce R McConkie stated: I do not understand all the providences of God–I do know that he allows false doctrines to be taught in and outside of the church–such is a natural sifting process of mortality.

The difficult church history questions that you posed—Who among us, knowing about them, has not grappled with?

To be direct and simple with you sir, it is –conversion– that has anchored me and helped me not to be sifted.

For me, the fruits of my conversion that have top priority are those that bring joy. Through this restored gospel my joy cannot be conditioned; that is, Lasting joy—JOY born of the Spirit.

Goodwill, I was very fortunate growing up. My mother was a mother “who knew” she radiated peace and great joy. miracles, also, were ubiquitous for this sweet lady…. Have you ever been in a person’s presence before where you have been healed mentally emotionally etc just being in their righteous shadow? How amazingly fortunate I was to be in this –deeply converted–woman’s life growing up. When the time came for me to Flap my own spiritual wings and cut the spiritual apron ties how could I not benefit from the Christ like example she set. When I finally chose to find and know the power of Jesus our dear Lord and Savior–I realized I knew him all along through the example of my mother. So, yes! I tell you the Journey that has had the most profound effect for me is the journey that has lead me to the day by day aquaring of the joyous attributes of Christ. When the troubling waters of some of our church history has Caused me consternation—I rejoice and take comfort in the most important byproduct of my conversion –JOY–that anchors me. Though I have been blessed to receive spiritual manifestations nothing brings me greater satisfaction In this ” vale of sorrow” condition that we live in then to partake of the fruit of the tree of life. The Love of God that sheds throughout our hearts truly is the most joyous spiritual gift that we can be given… Nothing has greater power to help us to standfast in the difficult mortal seas of life.

I Love and Place Great Value on intellectual inquiry–for me, however—this does not and never will trump The *condition* that comes from becoming a saint through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Be rest assured I have had my fair share of difficulties in this life. The JOY at times has been fleeting due to my poor use of agency. But when the JOY returns, oh the wonderous stabilizing effect it has….. Love for you my friend, Jared. Ps I want to speak to the other points that I have read in recent posts. Oh the dread condition of “time” in this
Telestial experiance—Carpe diem! Thank you brother Tim for the blog. I feel that I am amongst wonderful people….

Thank you for the comment to Will. I think that you are scripting non-intersecting thoughts. I can’t speak for Will, but if you were speaking to me and I wasn’t a member anymore, I would have the same issues seperate from the thoughts you presented. You mentioned Christ like example and love. This is truly thee power that comes from living true principles. The fact that you say that happiness only comes from concurrent membership in the church with your love of the Savior are not emphatic nor a given.

Most of us are members of the organization. To persuade people that you are only happy whilst a member is not correct. Our journey serving Christ comes in many forms for all people. It is the random acts of kindness, serving the family and preaching truth that brings happiness, not because you are part of the earthly institution that could have possibly been hijacked by ole’ Brigham, who never declared he was a Prophet. Heber J. Grant amassed massive amounts of debt which took until David O.MacKay to finnaly eradicate. Ole’Heber also professed that the only thing he new in the Church was money…and not really. The institution is limping along keeping the roots alive to spread the gospel as contained in the Book of Mormon.

The institution should never take precedence over our devotion to the Savior which can be concurrent but also seperate. Any act of service brings joy, but the devotion to the institution taking precedence over the search for truth and light is and never has been the correct path. I would postulate that if people read the book,”So You Don’t Want To Go To Church Anymore”, written by a non member, explores the trap and earthly insitution of power regardless of what it is, perpetually seeking to defend its position and to maintain its control as viable. Anything run by man will produce the same results. The Savior said, “Follow thou Me.” Can we truly follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? The commandments of the Father are to be baptized and to receive the Baptism of Fire. It is the precepts of men that have instituted other means by which we work our way to the Father. Excommunicating those who seek for truth and discover the precepts of men past and today generating the tithing and offerings for perpetuity of the employess and massive budgets is neither brotherly love nor patience. In DS or Will’s case, there still was no answer as to where in the scriptures they went wrong. It was all predicated in not following the brethren exactly.

How can men take away our baptismal covenant with the Savior? How can man take away our devotion to our wife and children while we teach them truth and right by stripping covenants we have made? How can men take away the Holy Ghost when obedience to the Savior is all one seeks to do? Submission has been bastardized and morphed into obedience to man and not to God. You really need to read that book. It will shed a new light on mankinds susceptibility to the evils of the Telestial. WE ARE NOT IMMUNE TO NEPHI’S PROPHECY AND WHAT HE SAW. My blessings go with you always

SFort, I’m sorry what I shared did resonate with you. Good brother, you made many wrong inferences about my comments. Speaking generally and not specifically to you–” I do know that pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I know that the heart and core of pride is ENMITY. Saton wants us to have enmity toward God and man. Enmity is having hatred and hostility towards and being in a state of opposition. This is the power which satan chooses to rule over us” .E.T.B. I feel see and dicern too much of this emotion in life. I hate its affects when it is in my life. I know when I feel see and dicern moroni 7:45 in a persons walk and talk in life truth is more readily present….

Recognize. It brings me to a path to walk with the Savior and not to get glued to or seek at all costs to defend the insitution. Your thoughts are good and will seek to encompass my soul with them. Thank you for your caring. I had a dream about the temple a year or so ago. I can’t interpret it. Perhaps you can get your email to me and I can share it.

sfort, you honor me. This would be a first for me. Just recently I had the spiritual noon day sun shined upon a dream that I was lacking satisfactory interpretation with. Brother, I know that what you are seeking will come. you are the one privy to the insight you lack. let me share some things with you that will help set the stage for this enlightenment:

Thomas Griffith, an editor for Time magazine some years ago, wrote of our era: “We are so caught up in the complexity and clamor of our way of life that we do not realize how much all of these powerful efforts to attract or divert us are a tax on our spirit: they do a double harm, in the triviality of what they offer and the fatigue which they engender, that keeps us from doing something more profitable with our time. Even to screen out that portion of our culture that we do not want becomes an effort of will. Simplicity of life is no longer ours to begin with, as it was in the days of remote farms, and of school lessons written on the back of a shovel. In a world of congestion, shattering noise and an infinity of seductions, we must, in the midst of a carnival, find and insist upon our own decent simplicity” (The Waist-High Culture [1959], 188).

Boyd K. Packer: ” The spirit does not get our attention by shouting or shaking us with a heavy hand; rather it whispers and caresses us so gently that if we are preoccupied we may not feel it at all”

Joseph Smith Jr: ” A person may profit by noticing the first intimations of the spirit of revelation. for instance– when you feel pure intelligence flow into you it may give you sudden strokes of ideas… thsu by learning the spirit of god and understanding it you can grow into the principle of revelation until you are perfect in Christ Jesus.”

My suggestion to you ( that you all ready know) is to crowd out the noise. let the spirit speak to you on how you need to minimize the static and receive the spirit, in tune…. it has been about a year since I turned the radio off in my car and sharpened my focus all the more on what I watch, listen, to and participate in. I have not gone unrewarded:) I love the power of the fast. I have longed for its affects when I am away from it. ( It has not always been this way) We truly are “upgraded” or our weak flesh “elevates” itself all the more to our willing spirit when we participate –to the best of our given abilities– to have a eye single to god’s glory in this pursuit….. sfort you have a marvelous experience awaiting you. Love for you Brother, Jared
send me your email if you would like. 🙂

Sfort, you honor me. Never been asked to participate in the interpretation of dreams before. 🙂 I will tell you though– as you already know, you are the one privy to experiencing the clear insight you lack. Just recently I had the spiritual noon day sun shine on a dream that I was lacking a satisfactory interpretation of. Let me share some things with you that will help aid you in this journey:

Thomas Griffith, an editor for Time magazine some years ago, wrote of our era: “We are so caught up in the complexity and clamor of our way of life that we do not realize how much all of these powerful efforts to attract or divert us are a tax on our spirit: they do a double harm, in the triviality of what they offer and the fatigue which they engender, that keeps us from doing something more profitable with our time. Even to screen out that portion of our culture that we do not want becomes an effort of will. Simplicity of life is no longer ours to begin with, as it was in the days of remote farms, and of school lessons written on the back of a shovel. In a world of congestion, shattering noise and an infinity of seductions, we must, in the midst of a carnival, find and insist upon our own decent simplicity” (The Waist-High Culture [1959], 188).

Boyd k packer: ” the spirit does not get our attention by shouting and shaking us with a heavy hand; rather it whispers and caresses us so gently that if we are preoccupied we may not feel it at all.

Joseph Smith jr: A person may profit by noticing the first intimations of the spirit of revelation. for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flow into you it may give you sudden strokes of ideas… thus by learning and understanding the spirit of god you can grow into the principle of revelation until you are perfect in Christ Jesus.

It has been about a year since turning off the radio in my car– also, I have been very selective with what I watch, listen to and participate in. I have not been unrewarded in my efforts:) truly, the stakes have never been higher… I have such a testimony of the fast. I long for its affects when I am away from it. (It has not always been this way) I testify that the weak flesh ‘elevates” to our willing spirit when we fast with an eye single go Father’s glory in this blessed pursuit. We truly are upgraded when we fast for a righteous purpose and with the desire to be all the more in compliance with Father and his will. How wonderful it is to through the great enabling powers of the Atonement see the affects of the natural man diminish and rejoice in becoming more of a saint through the atonement of Christ. Truly, “our Saviors grace is sufficient.. and he is mighty to save” sfort,what a marvelous experience awaits you. God’s speed my brother.

I sent a similar post earlier. does not look like on my end it took. if this is a duplicate. sorry love for you, Jared
please feel free to send email if you would like:)

Sfort, I do not mean to offend. You very well could be engaged in the behaviors reccomended. If you are anything like me– I constantly need to be reminded via many channels to be the “better angel of my nauture” and how to accomplish that worthy objective. 🙂

I do not offend in deed. I hometeach and serve willingly at this point. I serve and preach Christ to the membership. Just because I know the follies and path the restored chrch took on after Joseph’s death does not mean truth is not my beacon. We have to follow the only saved being from this earth to live as he does in that condition. It means serving humbly our fellow man. I however am not superflous and I especially do not do things the same way and expect different results. The church is in this mode expecting miracles when involved in unbelief. Something is coming soon and I want my eyes to see and my heart to feel seperate from what man dictates. The scriptures never teach “Follow the Prophet”, they infer listen to the Prophet. When something is said that blends with my spirit, I will listen and do. I am ready when it happens.

The jury is still out for me on Denver Snuffer. I do not feel compelled to learn of this movement other than what Tim offers. I have felt compelled to come for this blog. Genuine seekers of Christ–what a marvelous crowd. I do not want to judge anyone. I do not want to judge Denver snuffer. I genuinely apologize if I have come across in judgment of Denver or of any of you good people. My path seems to be different. It often has been a path filled with the joy of Christ and his Gospel. I have been given a very recent witness that Thomas S Monson is what believers believe him to be. I feel not to discredit what believers believe Denver to be. Maybe I will feel more compelled sooner than later to crack open one of his books or read of one of his lectures. I will follow Christ., And work and pray always for him to be in the details of my life. In The meantime, let us all promote with fervor the goodness of Jesus to all who come into our path. Love for all, Jared

Annalea, Appreciate that– thank you! It has been an enjoyable day off spent here and there with the ” Tim power forward/blogger MALONE family:) I have enjoyed all your posts. Your personality very much shines through your written expressions… I agree whole heartedly with the repentance quote. Love for you good sister, Jared

Jared
I have appreciated your comments and admire your dedication to the gospel, Christ, Pres. Monson and the brethren. As I have mention in an above commentary I respect them also and consider them prophets, seers and revelators. However, though out the years I have enjoyed the voices of other messengers who speak with the spirit, no matter what religion they belong to.

Sometimes hearing the gospel message in another tone or voice can bring a fresh look at an old subject. For instance I have enjoyed the soft spoken, poetic messages of the Asian cultures in relationship to the Greek or Hebrew voice. I believe all “God loving people” can contribute to the edification of the whole.

Like you, I have also enjoyed the writing of John Pontius. His message of “Follow Christ” has the same goal in mind as Denver encourages. Work toward and live worthy enough to seeing the face of the Lord in this life time. Their approach is certainly different, but the goal is the same.

I have loved reading Denver Suffer because he as the ability to combined scriptural references in a way that helps me “Get It” more clearly. I don’t always agree with some of the things he says…but he has brought a freshness to gospel subjects that I have not seen for a long time.

I especially like his latest blog post introducing “Mormon” in a new way. If you are so inclined…take a look. I think you would enjoy this one. http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/07/mormon-in-context.html The Book of Mormon messages leap off the pages when I read it again after seeing them through the eyes of someone else.

I’m also a follower of the Heartland Theory of the geographical location of the Book of Mormon. Now the history, physical details as well as the spiritual insights I have gain recently make reading the book a whole new experience and has deepen my testimony of it’s truthfulness.

For me, all this excitement has come through messengers other than the hierarchy. Just new tone and additional insights through different eyes… that’s all.

Kathy, thanks for what you have shared and how you have shared. Well recieved by me:)my older sister who I think is about one of the most amazing people to walk planet earth–she and her fam are on the 1weel/2 week? Tour of the heart land book of mormon areas. Does the restored gospel have a monopoly on truth? Absolutely not! So many beautiful inspired heart warming–extend our vision truths! out there. Any thing that promotes goodness and behavior that reflects the beauty of Christ, I embrace. I love drinking deeply from the choice musings of saint Abraham Lincoln etc:) it is the authority to perform sacred saving ordinances and the keys that give permission for that authority to be used in such a manner that obviously distinguishes. Have a wonderful day good sister. Love and appreciation for you, Jared

Kathy — thank you for your on-going comments. Not to be direct to you, but considering some of the thoughts that came to mind as I read through some of your ideas AND kind of being in the space of feeling a little squirrelly today…

I don’t understand why we don’t have a harder time when it comes to the displacement of our divinity, choice, agency, priesthood, identity and relationship. How is it that is has become so easy, even “natural,” to hand over our signs and tokens.

True messenger after true messenger points to Christ (His path, His message, His process), to Father and to the Powers of Heaven.

And what is that message? DS quotes JS in his most recent talk (again, using DS because of the box I’m speaking in right now). But aren’t the words of of DS and JS the same? And as they point to Christ, isn’t His message the same?

What did JS say the real “first principles” of the gospel were?

All true messengers lift, even begging. And its almost like we kick them in the face as they try and lift us up onto their shoulders. And yet, to even quote Christ in this context, or to quote and / or even try to reclaim our eternal status here in mortality we are immediately stoned, cast out or burned for acknowledging TRUTH. And if not the aforementioned, you are told your are “minimizing Christ,” called a new-ager, or put in some Christ consciousness box?

How can we grow, change and develop if we are lying to ourselves and each other? How can true progress be made if we labor under an illusion? How can we create here in mortality, embody and manifest the very qualities and attributes of deity if we are ever so quick to hand over this process to our majority rules, common consent “prophet, seers and revelators”?

If we are not honest, we can not change.

In therapy its called co-dependence, enmeshment and dysfunction. The whole inability to look down, lift up your shirt, acknowledge the umbilical cord that is somehow still attached … and cut the sucker! 🙂

And since I’m feeling a little extra saucy today … I’ll add the following 🙂

(Only because truth is truth, he is soooo not Mormon and for the heck of it! Smiles)

Russell Brand – Awakened Man

Father, please help me to change! Help me to reclaim the birthright I have sold, displaced, offered up the the arm of the flesh! Help me to truly see! To walk directly, unmediated, into your presence!

(Sorry all — the message is mine! The past couple of days been taking a sledgehammer to my illusions. Sorry for the projections. My path, my process. Genuine gratitude to Tim for this sacred space).

Well, it’s magnanimous of you to withhold judgment on DS. However, if you want to even understand the discussion on this blog about DS, then you need to crack a book of his or at least read his blog and get yourself up to speed on the issues discussed here. Otherwise your comments about DS are basically irrelevant, no matter how well-intentioned. Like it or not, DS is hitting a huge nerve in Mormonism. And he is just the tip of the iceberg. There are very serious issues coming up in Mormonism, and these pressures have been building for a couple of generations now. At some point these issues will boil up and the central leadership of the church will be compelled to address them. Whether this focal point will be DS and/or someone else, I don’t know. Personally, I agree that our focus should be Christ and following the pathway back to His presence, and that we have sufficient authority and knowledge to make that journey. However, DS should be taken seriously, because though I do not agree with his analysis of Mormon history, he is framing some very important and crucial issues for the future of Mormonism. Like it or not, there are big problems in the way leadership has addressed history, doctrine, practices, and policies for the past 80 years or so.

I too have visited the Book of Mormon sites throughout the Heartland. I went with Wayne May and Bruce Porter to discover the places where the Book evolved back in 2011. Especially the “Waters of Mormon”. Their is a place just south of St. Louis called the Current River where 2 million gallons of spring water come forth. It is pretty awesome to see where Alma may have baptized. This indeed is pure water. The Hopewell and Adena cultures have left miraculous signs of the Jaredites and Nephites. Though it seems the signs of their history have come to us slowly for a good reason. The Lord wants our spirits to receive witness not of and rely exclusively on physical evidence. The Church has also many artifacts they are holding and won’t release. Hmmm, all in due time of course. The Lord is in control and will release as we are ready as well as the rest of the Book of Mormon. Their are discoveries and miraculous events that will turn our hearts to the fathers, and it isn’t temple work as we are led to believe by the traditional narrative. Thank you for your spirit of openess with your writings.

Sfort… I read your commentary above and I like what you said, “Follow Christ and Listen to the Prophet.” The admonition to “Follow The Prophet” has bothered me for some time. The words really do belong to Christ. Like wise, the term Beloved Prophet bothers me also. For me that term is reserved for our Father when introducing his Son.

We are certainly funny people…. we insist on having idols and will build them disguised in terms we think are acceptable.

I think the term “Follow The Prophet” has made the Saints in general, lazy. It has given a false sense of security that all we have to do is “Follow the Prophet” and all will be well and we will be safe. In the meantime we can spend hours on social media, playing games on our phones etc. etc. because Thomas Monson is the link between God and the Saints. He will warn us in time. He’ll tell us when it’s time to pack up and leave for Zion. It gives a faults sense of security.

I believe Zion will be built one saint at a time by those who are diligent in their own study and in their own quest to be closer followers of Christ and follow his voice on a personal level. We must leave Babylon behind in a very real way and very personally.

Jared mention above how turning off the radio, being selective on what he watches and cautious about what he participates in has help him in turning from Babylon. I too made that decision several years ago. Although I have not had the results he has, I feel it was a start in the right direction.

I like what Denver states in his latest post, “An entire nation can be blind, but that does not prevent disciples from seeing. Neither religions, traditions nor governments keep an individual from repenting.”

As Saints, we can not place the burden on President Monson and the other brethren to “save” us from ourselves. We must do the individual work more diligently than ever by “Following Christ” in a very personal way. As you said, “The institution should never take precedence over our devotion to the Savior which can be concurrent but also separate.”

Jared and Kathryn both made curious observations. My wife and I chose to “turn off” cable tv about 8 years ago. It made a BIG difference in our home and lives. (We suffered from “withdrawals” for about two weeks…then never looked back!) Some of our children have NEVER seen a commercial. Imagine that!

I used to be a BIG “talk radio” junkie. Now, I spend my 45-minute commute to work each day communing with God. (Even though I have satellite radio, I get better “reception” with the radio turned OFF!)

Disengaging from Babylon is an important step toward coming unto Christ.

I too do not watch TV. There is no reason period. I believe you will get all the spirit speak you hope for. There are a nice group of folks doing the little things to shed themselves of the world. The church and world are in your hands. Thanks for sharing.

We also turned off the cable quite some time ago. We were a young couple, with just one baby, and worried what our ward would think, so we played the “budget” card, and said that we chose to use the cable money to rent a piano instead. (I still wish I had been able to buy that piano. It was so lovely for an upright.)

We kept the TV for a few years after that, for the occasional movie night. We found, once there wasn’t a TV to just turn on, we had so much more time. Being intentional about what we watched, and when we watched it, has reaped real dividends.

We disconnected before commercials & sitcom content took a nose dive, and way before reality TV hit. I’m so glad that we’ve “missed out” on all of those things . . . what we’ve gotten in return has been so much sweeter.

I concur with everything. The lazy ways are emcompassed in the temple recommend. The saints think that if they put the exact things in their mouths, they are saved. They think if they Sustain the President as a pophet serr and revelator, they will be saved, they think if they avoid all truth and divergent info they will be saved. They think if they pay their way in the temple, this sacrifice is enough. “We better not be caught without our temple recomend when the Savior comes or else? How many times have you heard that? What happened to the desire of our heart? It is not what we put in to our mouths but what comes out that is important. Because an admonition was mysteriously turned into a commandment and temple entry restrictive? What year did this happen with these questions.

When the early Saints waited for entry into Kirtland, were they asked questions? I understand the formulation of all the work that is going on needs some balance of control, but whether a person drinks coffee, has a beer (which I couldn’t do anyway, because I don’t care for it, not that it is a commandment) exempts them from worshipping God: and the saints continue the junk food, overweight, and a million gallons of soda? These Israelitish performances were exactly which kept the early people from seeing the face of God, and we don’t even realize we have paralleled and asked for the same things they did? This is what is called unbelief. The Lord looks upon the heart, which should be broken, and the spirit needs to be contrite. We have replaced this with submission to our leaders. If it’s Tuesday, it must be Belgium. Thanks for your response

The temple is a place of peace for me. I love to worship there. I enjoy attending the temple and sitting in the Celestial Room pondering and praying.

I realize that there must be a standard in place for being able to enter the temple. I have seen many changes in the questions asked for a recommend and have wondered about the changes made in the ceremony. I have had to put those things aside that bother me and concentrate on my own experience while there.

The temple questions have increased and become more restrictive than 50 years ago. It concerns me. I predict that the questions are going to change again after this woman/priesthood hoopla. And, it wouldn’t surprise me if the seventh question, which focuses on affiliation or sympathy to other ideas other than the institution will be changed to stronger language in order to weed out followers of other messengers of Christ, such as DS.

I have wondered why they just don’t ask me about my personal testimony, until I recently found out that there are 5 pillars to validate a testimony. Where have I been? I nearly croaked. Does it mean that one has not “arrived” unless they have all 5 pillars in place?

It was my understanding that testimony is personal. What if I can only testify of one of the pillars… does that mean I’m not in good standing and my witness is less than someone who stands at the pulpit and by rote sound the 5 pillars? What are we doing to each other?

I don’t know about you, but my testimony as evolved over the years and has certainly not been in the prescribed suggested order. My witness of the Book of Mormon came first and I didn’t where it came from and who the translator was… I just knew it was true. After that… other confirmation of the gospel of Christ has falling into place over the years.

Frankly, I have not held Joseph Smith in the highest esteem, (I have a Polygamy issue. Ya think it may be a Woman issue?) And, I think Brigham Young was a “Bully.” I’m sure glad that the Temple Recommend questions haven’t ask: Do you love Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I wouldn’t have been allowed up the drive-way.

It has only been recently that I have come to love the Prophet Joseph Smith since I have taken it upon myself to study his words more… especially the Lectures on Faith. My testimony of his mission has increased immensely. I still think Brigham was a Bully … so what… it’s just a point of view.

My point is… we are being controlled by “Lists” which are confining and don’t allow for the natural growth and expansion of the our Spirit and testimony. Just more rules to “judge” each other by.

Do I have the answer? Perhaps this is the best than can be done but my spirit has a tendency to recoil from such control.

Kathryn, I found Rock Waterman’s view on polygamy to make tremendous sense. I could never bring myself to believe that Joseph Smith could have done all of the amazing things he did, brought forth all of the light he did, while being a blatant liar. He preached and taught and testified (including in courts of law) AGAINST polygamy, continuing through when he was arrested and put into Carthage jail. He was only alone at night, with Emma in their room during the last several years of his life . . . he always had a scribe, companion or bodyguard or several with him, so he couldn’t be accused of polygamy, among other things.

amen; amen; amen; amen; amen. Goodness, looks like I appreciate what you are saying.
He was in jail constantly–
but the others weren’t. Was Brigham ever in jail? Was Brigham ever tarred and feathered? Did his children die as a result of tarring and feathering?
No. None of those. How did he escape it? I don’t know, but I don’t think he was around very much, and I don’t think he knew Joseph well, and I think “mainstream” LDS scholars (like Bushman) are the ones who are contributing to the growing disregard of Joseph Smith, but Brigham’s reputation hasn’t changed at all for 170 years–

same old . . . “bully”. I like that. 🙂

Brigham didn’t get bodyguards who loved him; he had a high fence with scary things on top it to keep people out of his Beehive House. I suppose he hired people, because for him it was all about paying and receiving.

No, there was nothing the men had in common, at all. And I wash my hands of Bushman and all the others who have oh, so gently tried to tell us that Joseph Smith was great but had that one little failing–

No, sirs.

Annalea, thank you for the discussion, too. You are very kind. I always read you, and what you had to say helped me to refine and hone my own feelings about some things and make greater sense of what Father and Jesus are doing with me.

🙂

I happen to think Emma Smith was one fine lady, and if Brigham Young didn’t like her that says more about him than about her. He didn’t know how to treat a lady! And her dislike of him says a lot, too.

Yes, she married a nonmember who had always been protective of the ‘saints’–
always. He was already ‘involved’ with another woman, and she knew it, and I daresay there was no real marriage, but she was concerned about the safety of her sons, with very good reason.

He may have been a drinker and a carouser and etc.–but he had always had the best interests of the Smith family at heart–and most of the saints–

Thank you Tim for those links, sorry if I sounded out of line but so many people are descendents from polygamy in the church, I am actually a woman and would prefer not to practice it but it was just such a big part of our history its hard to deny.

Hello wonderful Saints. Enjoy this beautiful message : ) if you feel so inclined, share your own “Baptism of fire” story for the insperation and –edifacation of this fine audience. What beautiful blessings/gifts Christ so willingly offers upon king Benjamin –Saint– adherence. Love for you–Jared

True. It is strange and unusual. I don’t pretend to understand it even though I have been reading about it since I was a teenage boy. It’s been a part of almost every serious historical work on the church I have ever read. It seems everyone has their opinion, but I am only interested in what the Lord reveals to me. The closest I have seen is what Denver shared – that is was more about the sealing power and building a family that could be claimed in eternity. Brigham changed it and I don’t believe Brigham was inspired.

The Lord saw our day, he is in control, just like in Brigham’s time and Zedekiah’s time. Each fills a roll designated beforeehand by God himself. This isn’t happenstance. This was always foreknown. The key point being how we will wade through it, and how it will be our foreordination. Thanks for your thoughts

Reading the book,”In defense of Joseph”, or “Joseph Faught Polygamy”, it bodes well. However there was a dark time in the Church back then when relelations were sparse and some awful things happened that the Saints instigated. There is something to The Watcher’s Atonement Staute and Scapegoat Doctrine. IT seemed there was a time Joseph was a little muddled. It didn’t affect the restoration with the Book of Mormon and the revelations prior to the end, but there is a strange delusion with the Temple ceremony that Brigham tried to remember the best he could and other things. The Lord’s hand was involved in putting this delusion among the Saints. Joesseph kept saying that he was trying to bring the Saints up to higher things, but they just wouldn’t get there.

It amazes me the writing today of many that frame the subject with pertinent scriptures It is either an amazing mind or the best word crunching program ever or it is the Spirit of the Lord, or all three. I am not going to take each piece and try to wrought against this, it was too powerful. Amazing presentation. So if the gentiles have sinned against the Gospel, what next? It will eventually have to be where a few members get together in their homes, “where two or three are gathered in my name, there will I be also”. But we are not quite there. Thanks for adding this into the conversation.

I sent this to my brother, who is not really traditionally active, but has a very studious mind. He immediately said he saw holes in this letter and wondered it is is that one becomes so radical. This surprised me. But he sets his whole premise on the fact that the leadership is not tarnished. Under these circumstances, I see his position. This is most members supposition. The following is his response:

! So amazed at how these radicals get to this point.
> even to me, the holes in her case are a mile wide. Clueless.
>
>
Here are just a few from the first couple of paragraphs.

1. “…many leadership decisions I’ve been unaligned with”. I know that church leadership is chosen through the spirit. They hold the keys to their positions. they are given insights through the spirit. The glaring admission that she is not aligned with certain processes tells me she is using her ‘natural man/woman understanding as opposed to seeking understanding and discernment through prayer (which she may not have perceived correctly since she has shown evidence in her writings that she does not have the spiritual enlightenment)

2. “….and the direction of the church in general has concerned me.” We sustain leadership based on our faith of them being called of God with the expectation that they will continually consult with Heavenly Father for direction. She has not been given the authority as a seer or revelator to understand what God has revealed to leadership. We rely on leadership to direct us and it’s up to us to pray and receive confirmation…..which, based on the life we are living, may or may not be revealed to us.

3. “…gravity of a few things in particular have altered my ability to sustain the leaders. ” How is she able to discern the gravity of the situation to the extent that priesthood leadership can?

4. “…..who support and purport certain doctrines, policies, and decisions in the church. Suddenly she is capable of “purporting doctrine”? She needs to go back and study how doctrine is received and disseminated.

5. “….this church was organized as one requiring the common consent of the members:”
I think she has misinterpreted that scripture. She has to recall how the church was brought back to the earth through one worthy individual, Joseph Smith. In fact, the reason the Church had to be brought back to the earth through the proper authority is because 59 million people since Christ left the earth, have changed and created their own churches based on their personal perspectives, abandoning direct authority and revelation to one those that God has called. Why wasn’t the Church restored to the earth through a consensus of a congregation?Does she really feel that every single member of a congregation would have the direct relationship with Heavenly Father to receive the prophecies? Why isn’t every member of her ward a Prophet?
6. 3 party covenant with God, Church and herself. I believe that covenants are between God and me. The very fact that she includes that Church in her 3 some covenant tells me she doesn’t understand what a covenant is.

So goes the battle. To win hearts and minds are beyond man’s ability. The Lord has to set the course on this. We shall see.

Great responses. Thanks for sharing. So goes the battle indeed… but take positions we must, one way or another, for that is why we are here. We cannot be lukewarm. We must be either hot or cold, but how can we decide unless we study it out? Both sides are important to me. Oh, how I appreciate the dialog, even if I don’t add much.

You are probably a man. Most LDS men don’t get very upset about polygamy (wonder why . . .)–

some do, but they aren’t as adamant about it, generally speaking, unless they are painfully honest men in terms of wanting to know what is really right–

as women.

However, Jacob in the Book of Mormon (remember what Joseph said about its being the most correct book here)–

condemned it roundly; that one little vague verse in there about “if I will command”–

has to do with “seed”–

it doesn’t say “if I will command polygamy”–

And, no, polygamy isn’t mainstream, but most “saints” have gone along with it, because the institutional church allows men to be sealed to more than one woman–

There were a lot more people than most realize who refused to live it, often following the Spirit in doing so–

refused to ‘follow’ the sheep–

There was a group who went with Joseph Smith III to Utah to preach, after being invited by the Utah leaders–

and they drew large crowds, and they (especially his son) told the people that Joseph had not lived or encouraged polygamy–

and many of those people went to a state near Utah–which never had a polygamist colony.

I can tell you from personal ancestral experience and even from the stories of my ancestors that they people had large, happy famiies, strong marriages without polygamy. The idea of ‘choice’ seed is ludicrous–

and elitist. It’s spiritual eugenics. It’s based upon the philosophies (indirectly, but very much related) of such “Godly” men as Charles Darwin–

and yet that was ‘peddled’ for years by the church leaders and most people accepted it, except some who actually listened to their ancestors whose ancestors chose a different path.

Some of *us* have both. I can tell you that in the case of my family the plural families were small and unhappy, of course, especially the women, but also many times the children.

The “church” has sanitized much of this–
in an effort to get modern LDS to believe the practice was more widespread than it was–

and to accept it as continued practice, but as serial monogamy–

happens all the time–

there are men in the church who are sealed to several living women; they divorce, leave the wife and children, marry another woman, are sealed to her and go on. It’s shamefully common.

And very unrighteous. It’s an abomination. I realize, of course, that not all men are the ‘bad guys’ in divorce; I realize that powerfully–

but the sealing situation makes things very complicated–

and certainly puts a divide between men and women. President Hinckley announced that it (polygamy) was not doctrine. But many LDS still think they will ‘live it’ someday–

You do not have to accept it; the Book of Mormon discourages it powerfully–

D&C 132 is one of those possibly muddled (because it passed through so many hands before the general church public saw it)–

the evil and conspiring men (The Book of Mormon warns about secret combinations SO much that if anyone is reading it they might be wary)–

did such a good job of meshing polygamy into the ‘gospel’ that most people believe the same thing–

well, if polygamy is wrong, the ‘gospel’ is wrong. Absolutely not!!!

But that is how evil and conspiring men work. I strongly urge you to read the Cultural History of the Book of Mormon by Daymon Smith. He proves by original church records that the Book of Mormon was basically hijacked–

it’s more complicated than that, and most of the people involved were just followers and not probably ‘evil’, but I’m sure there were evil and conspiring people behind much of it–

doing satan’s bidding–

often young, honest people who have been taught to be chaste find polygamy to be the huge stumblingblock that leads them to leaving the ‘faith’–

The Bible espouses polygamy completely–

ONE section of the D&C mentions it, and those who have studied it say that its authorship is very much uncertain (132)–

the Book of Mormon preaches against it in more than one place–

the other one is very low key and in an entirely different book, but it’s there as ‘proof’ of how polygamy leads to destruction or follows it or accompanies it–

I will be the first to share. I appreciate the personal nature of the request that I have asked. As you may know by now , I am a comfortable soul when it comes to sharing my testimony/experiences. I love sharing and receiving such– I share as the the spirit prompts. one of you mentioned that this is “end game time” If I can help buoy you up and you buoy me up in this lone and dreary exsistance by doing such–should we not!? I value and find so true then Elder Packers admonition/promise ” that which we share / give away–in way of testimony, there will always be given a REPLACEMENT– WITH INCREASE” 🙂 It all started for me in a serious way— this way :

My parents divorced when I was 10– resulting with my Father choosing to be absent from our lives. Regrettably, I chose to use my agency poorly in my teen years. Tragically, mom was diagnosed with a terminal cancer when I was 14. She was told that with chemotherapy and radiation she could possibly live 8 months. She explained to the doctor that she had faith she would live long enough to see her last children off. Very shortly after this, she was given a priesthood blessing that told her as much. Miraculously, her bone cancer multiple myaloma, went into remission. My sweet angel mother was about as perfect as mom (Child of God) could be. She was a fervent follower of Jesus in word and deed. There was no duplicity in her; truly, this elect woman was without guile and was wonderfully filled with and emanated the pure love of Christ. Miracles too, were ubiquitous for this saintly woman. So many over cast times in my life I would be healed mentally, emotionally, and lifted spiritually just being in her righteous company.

I will never forget a time in my life when I was 16 watching “Geraldo” (a tv talk show) downstairs in my room. The theme of the show that day was: people who were abducted by aliens and returned. Sounds so comical now, but, at that time of my life– it created a faith crisis. Geraldo’s guests were most convincing. As the show progressed, I became increasingly convinced these folks –had– been abducted. Panic filled my heart. The thoughts that raced through my mind were “how could the church be true– why would God allow these things to take place–Alien abductions were not supposed to be apart of the Plan of Salvation”?

I knew I had to speak to the resident- spiritual authority in my home. Hollering to see if my mom was upstairs– She replied that she was. I wanted at some point in my life to embrace the faith that my mother so beautifully reflected. I knew that my lifestyle was practically void of the happiness and serenity she had in abundance. I was feeling very forlorn as I walked up those stairs. I most assuredly hoped, but was not so convinced, that my mother could pour oil on my troubled waters. When she saw me, she asked sweetly what she could do for me. I observed that she was sitting in her favorite dimpled leather chair reading her oh-so-loved- scriptures. Upon being in my mother’s presence I was immediately filled with incredible peace and joy. All feelings of emotional pain, anxiety, and confusion were completely purged from me. So thorough was this cleansing– that I didn’t even ask my mother a single question. Astonished by this beautiful and immediate result– I simply told her “oh nothing” turned around and went back downstairs.

Though I had this profound experience, numbskull me, Still chose to live a life That was unbecoming of a Latter day Saint. The 19th year in my life was approaching fast. I was settling in on the idea that a mission was going to be a part of my future. This was a strong wish and desire of my mothers. My mission call came. The day came for me to leave to the MTC. My angel mother passed that morning. My twin sister had already left the home. Departing to the MTC that morning, I was the last of her 9 children to leave. The power of this righteous woman’s faith, and the power / efficacy of the priesthood blessing she received– resulted in her righteous desire and wish being fulfilled –to the day–

The Lord’s mission I was called to serve to was a difficult struggle, initially. President Benson talked about having a vision seeing an army of missionaries that could “match the message,” this–I was not. Growing spiritually during my formative years was largely wasted. The lead surgeon in the county that we labored in — my first area–Invited us over to teach a friend. Introducing my companion and I– he explained in glowing details what a great missionary my trainer was. He explained with an un-enthused tone that “this elder means well as a missionary–but he is not quite up to speed.” I was devastated. No doubt he was right. As we entered our apartment that night, I asked to be alone in the bedroom. Pouring my heart and soul out to Father in Heaven– I cried and cried asking forgiveness for not being prepared and pleading for help.

That first area I nearly read the Book of Mormon 3 times. A miracle occurred. Nothing short of the Red Sea parting. Not only did the gospel make crystal clear sense, but my intellect (by my standards) soared! I went from an unorganized somewhat unkempt fella– all the sudden I felt to be organized and precise in my actions. So much fog lifted– my mind was expanded and made much more clear. My previous swollen twisted tongue shrunk to size and was “loosed” I truly was going through a glorious- spiritual rebirth. The last fast and testimony meeting before I was transferred to a new area this lead-surgeon member stood to bear his testimony. He stated that amongst other things helping him to know that the church is true– he testified that another feather in his cap of testimony was seeing a miracle with my transformation. He rightly knew that I was a lowly way behind the curve missionary when I first entered the mission field. He also knew that nothing short Of God’s tender mercy and miraculous help could have done for me what had occurred and was occurring.

I know unquestionably, Nothing unlocked this door for me so profoundly as did the study of the Book of Mormon. Father in Heaven and my Savior Jesus Christ became so wonderfully real and close to me. I can honestly say that I read a total of 6 books in 19 years of living. The majority of those in the fourth grade. I gave little to no energy in my studies from junior high to high school. Suddenly, to study the Book of Mormon, a book littered with thee thou and thines etc — for it! to come alive! Wonder of wonders…

I became infused with the Spirit of God. I truly was a “New Creature in Christ”(2Corinthians 5:17) I do not know how many times I read The Book of Mormon on the Lord’s mission. I do know that it was approaching somewhere around 15 times. I read certain books with in the Book of Mormon a hundred times and more. Joy and anticipation came arising in the morning to read the Book of Mormon. I could not wait to come home for lunch to read the Book of Mormon. I truly hungered and thirsted for the glorious affects that came into my life reading the great “Stick of Joseph” (Ezekiel37:19) When you are near SPIRITUALLY–blind, lame, deaf, and dumb and you discover sooner than later your relationship with deity becoming so real and sacred for you– and you are suddenly given beautiful new gifts and your known talents heightened–wondrous spiritual vistas are opened up to you–the voice of the Lord (via the Holy Ghost that blessed “Comforter” (John 14:26,27) is heard and obeyed–when great clarity of thought and speech increase and all of this from these fruits given through sincere study and prayer from reading a book! Incredible! What amazing love and appreciation fills your whole being…

I always knew my mother “knew it” she truly was a mother “who knew” I testify that to become a person “who knows” the expedited path is the path that leads you to the unending feast, even the great spiritual banquet –which is– the BOOK of MORMON–book of all BOOKS! (Ether 12: 6)

I don’t know how to ‘like’ something; others have managed to do that. Let me just say that the personal way in which Jesus/Heavenly Father touch our lives just never ceases to amaze me. Beautiful story about your mother and God’s loving presence in both your lives. Thank you.

Karl, as promised here is my reply. I agree with Denver if I have not read his stuff I am not in a position to fairly asses his stuff. I am told in his S.C. book he acknowledges support for the brethren etc. That is a book I would not mind reading. I have read some of his blog we have a family member in his camp and I have heard a partial interview with John Dehlin. Before my phone shut down the pcast I heard DS mention thetemple ordinances are not real etc. I believe I hd heard correctly. I have learned alot from Tim obviously and a few other sites. I have had privilege ed experience s in the temple and with the M. Priesthood. Here recently at family members sealing. Unmistakable joy born of the spirit particularly as sealer stated priesthood authority. Levels of increased joy lasted wellbeyond sealing. John d many saints are sleepy no doubt. Tim send my email to johnd and sfort please. John, often I pray not to trifle when at church the lord blesses me i feel increased love snd sbility to affirm strengths vs judge. Often I relize who am i to judge or criticize when I ealk imperfectly. I learn so much from everyone. Enmity is real in the church. I hear grivences on this blog often i feel it enmity inspired vs cleansing the temple rationale. Two very rightous bro onlaws have had deceased friends. appear to them in dreams multiple dreams the message was for their desire for temple work to be done. My sisters husband has the gift of beholding administering angels. When he does temple work for his ancestors they appear to him in the stll of the night with gratitude. Is pres M a 1afamily prophet or just a A prophet. Really does not matter. I know he holds the keys. As i baptized my little fella not the to long ago i could not even make it through the authorized expressions so powerful and seet were the feelings. Feelings born of the spirit. Keys alive keysauthorized this saving ordinance Event.

Jared
I think, maybe, you misunderstand my position. The problems in and of “the church” don’t have a considerable effect on those who are looking to be true disciples of Christ and seek after further light and knowledge from the Lord. I believe that we have priesthood authority, but priesthood power is driven by faith for the most part. I believe however that true priesthood power, power in the priesthood, including the sealing power of that which is spoken in scripture held by people such as Elijah, Enoch, Nephi and others, to seal on earth and in heaven comes DIRECTLY from the hand of God Himself. The sealing power we have today requires an additional sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be ratified in the hereafter. I believe that’s the position, or in the ballpark anyway of DS, but you’ll have to ask him, that’s my opinion only.
My concern and also of many here in this blog, is we as an LDS people are spending so much time and energy in everything BUT gaining a REAL knowledge of Christ and a true testimony of Him, that all the church programs and apostles in the world couldn’t save a soul.
There is no group salvation, or vicarious salvation through the brethren, but that seems to be the subconscious position at least, of so many of the LDS community.
I could go on for pages but that’s my concern for the church in a nutshell.
My concerns ARE NOT for me! I know where to find salvation, I’m just worried about so, so many who are trying to find salvation by checking off a long list of boxes of does and don’ts, but have lost track of just who they say they are following. (The prophet, the stake pr. The bishop, the spouse)?
Salvation comes only by and through the Savior Jesus Christ! And the gospel, as restored by the prophet Joseph Smith, is by far the best way to find it!
And yes, I am an active temple holding member and plan to stay that way.
Your brother in Christ

Thanks John D, I fully appreciate a cleansing is going to occur…. Let’s continually do our part to lift inspire testify buildup etc. A pessimistic spirit does not help. I very much appreciate the gravity of what many are saying. Our metric should ne this with our walk and talk: do we reflect the 2to great commandments? Love you my brother, Jared

Nice comment. I think you are my clone. I have mentioned many of these things in times past. The sealing power is not what the Saints think it is. Remember thet Brigham tried his best to remember what Joseph reiterated with the ordinances. When Speaking with Denver, he said the only legitinate ordinance done in the temple refers to the Baptismal font. I am not here to speak for him, God forbid; but, he confirmed my thoughts on the matter. Why process spiritual rituals for those in the Spirit? Water is temporal and ones c omittment to Christ stems from the earthly experience where we will be judged by our works in the Book of Life but judged according to God in the Spirit. The only direct baptismal occurrence for the dead appears in Corinthians. The Lord also told Joseph to stop baptims for the dead outside the temple and to wait until Nauvoo was built. Why did Joseph not write about these other ordinances but we later get it from Brigham? The only ceremony I have read about in 1843 was between Emma and Joseph in a store at Nauvoo. Many things we follow and just follow. The Temple is where the Lord visits his people. DS saw the Lord there. I have had revealed to me from two differnt sources what my grandchild was to be named. It doesn’t speak of ceremony adherance. But it is where the Lord will talk to his people. Thanks for your thoughts.

I am sorry I assumed you were a man. It’s about black and white. * Some of those people were doing their best. My ancestors, some of them, very few, ‘lived’ polygamy; there was never a happy situation, and why can’t I realize they were human and forgive them? I do. I just know the non-polygamous families were bigger and happier and more stable.

We aren’t supposed to ‘worship’ our ancestors, but many Mormons do. Somehow belief in Jesus Christ got mixed up with thinking our ancestors were better than those people who were not LDS?

How could that have happened? But it did. For example, I do not celebrate the 24th of July. I think of it as a day of mourning for the exile of a people who did not obey–

Yes, I had some who showed up around that time.

We can forgive our ancestors. We should be aware of the mistakes they made. And we should look for how God worked in their lives. I can see some of it, but most of it is with those who didn’t practice polygamy and how they were delivered from it–

oddly.

Helaman 15:15 talks about the traditions of the fathers in a way that explains this well.

See their mistakes. Learn from them. Forgive them. Don’t repeat them.

It’s all about Jesus anyway and His Atonement. It’s not about polygamy.

*I know, because I AM a Mormon–LOL! Some Mormons can be very ‘black and white’, all or nothing–

Hi mm I dont worship my ancestors I am not even from Utah, Im not even from the US, not sure what July 24th is? Yes I am a woman, I wasnt going to reply as that did offend and did not want to start bashing anyone but I accept your apology and all I can really say is we have to agree to disagree, I really dont wish to offend anyone but I hope you have a great Sunday with your family. 🙂

I really just wanted to assure you that polygamy isn’t a ‘tenet’ of *our* religion, at all.

Jesus Christ is the foundation.

We have been blessed, abundantly, as a people to have the Book of Mormon, brought to us by a prophet.

Through the Book of Mormon we find Christ.

What do we disagree on here? 🙂

There are those who claim Joseph Smith ‘lived’ polygamy. Yes, he was ‘experimenting’ (many believe) with sealings. I believe there is great validity to sealings, but I don’t think we have all the information regarding the concept.

But there is no proof he ‘lived’ polygamy at all. There are no children. All DNA testing on descendants of women who claimed they had ‘his child’ have shown that those children are not his.

I don’t know what we are disagreeing about. I wouldn’t give up on the ‘church’ of the ‘gospel’, because of polygamy.

I’m just encouraging you not to let something so little upset your faith.

You must ground it in Jesus Christ.

I really do apologize. I didn’t believe you worshipped your ancestors; I know many Mormons who, sadly, do–very much so. They really prop those people up and make a big deal about them.

the 24th was when Brigham Young arrived in the ‘valley’–

It’s good to have someone who is not a Utah Mormon or from America on here. I really hope you won’t think I mean any offense–

I want to be a faith builder. I guess I said too much about things you just weren’t interested in. I apologize for that as well–

But I wish you would tell me what we disagree on. When I began to discover that polygamy might have been a mistake a few overzealous men made after Joseph Smith’s death and that there was no proof Joseph lived it or preached it, I felt my faith built, not shaken. I can still love my ancestors who did it–

I do.

I just don’t admire them as much as those who didn’t.

Please tell me where we disagree, and we can try to work it out.

I am sad that I have hurt your feelings. I am only on the internet to try to build faith in Jesus Christ, and we LDS have more hope in Christ because of the Book of Mormon than any other people, and yet we have taken that book lightly. I just encourage you to read that and try not to think about polygamy or anything I have said to offend. I am much older, and I tend to give advice; if that is offensive, I apologize for that as well.

But there is no proof he ‘lived’ polygamy at all. There are no children. All DNA testing on descendants of women who claimed they had ‘his child’ have shown that those children are not his.

That overstates the DNA case a bit.

1) If Joseph fathered any children we can only get DNA samples from their descendants if, in fact, they survived childhood and have living descendants themselves.

2) All of the “negative” DNA results have been for purported sons based on Y-chromosome testing.

3) Since daughters don’t get a Y-chromosome different types of DNA tests are required (i.e., autosomal DNA) whose results to date have been inconclusive one way or the other. Josephine Lyon is a strong candidate for being Joseph’s daughter.

I predict that you go the way of Snuffer and Skousen. You obviously are being overtaken by false spirits. You will either withdraw your name from the records of the Church or you will eventually be excommunicated.

You know, I was just on another Mormon blog where a number of readers were discussing The Book of Mormon and uplifting things in it–

and happy things that we feel assured the Lord has in Mind for His Children–

and it was very uplifting, and then someone came on and said some ugly, critical things about the blogmaster, and the Spirit just kind of went away.

And I thought, “lemon sucker; pin swallower, didn’t get all the pins down”–

I wonder what drives people to say ugly or hopeless things about other human beings–

to predict bad things for others. How sad your life must be, Don, that you have to do that.

Maybe you don’t suck on lemons or swallow pins whole–

but I wonder what makes people want to deflate other people–

do you know? Maybe you can help me out.

Now I need to realize that we all have bad experiences in life, and sometimes some people revel in others’ heartaches, I guess, maybe because they had too many heartaches themselves. If that is the case with you, I am sorry your life has been so hard that you predict grief for others.

I hope I don’t suffer the same fate as Denver and Max. I’m not nearly as prolific as they are. I refuse to resign. I have no desire to do so. I love this church and the good people in it.

I have already met with my Bishop and Stake President about my questions and concerns. I am making every effort to follow the counsel from my Bishop. I am grateful for his friendship and Christ-centered concern for me.

Let’s talk about false spirits. It’s actually rare these days anyone wants to admit they exist. I’m curious to know what experience you have with false spirits. Would you mind sharing? I am very sincere.

Hearing the voice of the Lord and discerning it from false spirits is a major key to our happiness in this life and our preparation for the life to come. Tell me how you are able to discern between them.

I have done a lot of research over the years and have posted perhaps a dozen blog entries on the subject. Here are some of those posts. You may be interested in perusing them:

I am always concerned when someone commences an explanation of action by saying something along the lines of “I have to be honest with myself” or ‘I would not be being honest with myself if…”

In my experience it is never about honesty. It is rather less complicated than that. Sometimes people are “honestly right” and sometimes they are “honestly wrong”. It is not the honesty that is in question…it is what is right and what is wrong.

In this regard the test according Moroni is quite straight forward – for those more competent than I. My preference for the past sixty years is to defer judgement and while waiting on further light and knowledge, go visit the sick, the poor, the imprisoned, the widows, the fatherless, take care of my Home Teaching families and allow time to deliver the harvest. It’s worked well so far.

Cheers
Rikitiki

P.S. I don’t know that God actually recognises “resignation”. Resigning is what you do from a job, or a club, or a political party. If that is what you consider the church to be then membership is already an irrelevance.

Don, I hope you are just having a bad day? Though I also have issues with the letter in question — I have learned that there ismuch good fruit that hangs from the Tim Maone tree. A. Licoln said it best and I would admonish you to give heedto his words: malice toward none charity for all and I would adapt and tell you Don that your youapproach to” bind up (Tim’s perceived) wounds is lacking… Don,you can– we all need and can! do better at applying moroni 7:45, 46. Love for you my brother, Jared

This is not directed at anyone. I just wanted to share something that struck me as I was reading on p. 409-410 of PtHG this Sunday evening:

“False prophets benefit from their claims. True ones are never popular, and always preach repentance … any time a true prophet is sent, all who reject him become a part of the world. Those who are of the world fail to receive the messengers God sends, preferring the false ones that men admire.”

And from Joseph (TPJS, p. 206):

“The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves ‘in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth,’ and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men”

And just because I believe in equal time for both sides in considering a question, I offer this from Joseph:

“When a man goes about prophesying, and commands men to obey his teachings, he must either be a true or false prophet. False prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones” (TPJS p. 365).

And this from Elder Ballard:

“Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church.

“Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views.

“They ‘set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion’ (2 Ne 26:29) CR, Oct 1999, pp. 77–78 or Ensign Nov 1999 pp. 62–63.

——————————

I like that. Seeking the welfare of Zion is a great way to determine if someone is a false prophet. Of course, you then have to determine how the Lord has established Zion in the past – by sending a new messenger with authority and a message received from the Lord.

By the way, as far as I know, Denver has never claimed he was a prophet. It is my view he is acting as such, or as a messenger or servant. He may ask me to stop writing about his writings and lectures, but I see a message in his work that appeals to me. How about you?

How bout me? This is me. DS does not set himself a light unto the world, therefore he does not employ priestcraft. His theme across the board is always Christ and lifting up ourselves toward him. He seeks no noteriety, nor to be followed. He seeks no gain whether we follow him or not. The content of DS is what endears those who read and listen to him. If Alma were alive and preched to me as a Zoramite, I would listen and pray and then seek direction. Would I follow Alma? No. Would I follow Ammon if I lay postrate for three days and being visited by the Lord and having the baptism of fire. I would indeed thank him and love him, but I would not hang on his every word. This is the challenge of listening and hearing truth; you can’t help but follow to a certain extent, but being mature in the spirit, your actions seek for Christ and you seek to hear words from Him in addition. There is only one example of a saved person, and that is Christ. We follow His example. That is DS teaching. It rings loud and true for me. But he is just one of many sources I seek. Thank you for the platform.

My question is… why do I have to chose sides as long as my intent is to “Follow Christ?” Why is it necessary to pit one messenger against another, which Don’s comments seems to imply?

I have never felt that you and most of those who have commented on this blog has not given due credit to President Monson as being the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints…. with the authority to carry out the necessary administrations of the organization. On top of that, he has the power and privilege of being a prophet, seer, and revelator, if he takes that opportunity.

I like what Brigham Young said:
“I have often said to the Latter-day Saints– Live so that you will know whether I teach you the truth or not.

Suppose you are careless and unconcerned, and give way to the spirit of the world, and I am led, likewise to preach the things of this world and to accept things that are NOT of God, how easy it would be for me to lead you astray!

But I say to you, live so that you will know for yourselves whether I tell the truth or not.

That is the way we want all Saints to live.” JD 18:248

By the same token, can there be other messengers that can teach, and inspire us to do good and to follow Christ? Why not? Why are titles necessary? Do we need to give them titles… like “Prophet” or something similar, to validate their words? A messenger’s words should be able to stand on their own without any title attached. “By Their Fruits, Ye Shall Know Them.”

I am presently reading Journey to the Veil, by John Pontius. I have recently been struggling with a couple of personal issues and have found answers in reading his words. I believe this messenger was sent to me to provide answers in a way that I could understand.

By the same token, I believe that Denver is a messenger. He has inspired me to take a closer look at my own relationship with the Lord and has opened deeper understanding in many other subjects. Sfort…. Like you said, “He is one of many sources that I seek.”

The Brethren may have said the same thing in a different way, but for some reason their words on these subjects have not pierced my soul the way the Denver’s words have. Does that make the brethren uninspiring? Absolutely not. Many have had their lives changed by their words on particular subjects, of which I was not able to tune in.

Denver has never claimed to be a prophet and that title “Prophet” has been attached to him by some readers of his words…. which really is unfair because it may put him in an awkward position that he does not want. Why do we find it necessary to attach labels or titles to people? Are we so insistent on building “Idols” that we do this to our messengers?

In response to Jules letter: I believe the way the brethren handled their responsibilities, (whether we approve or not) is between them and the Lord. If there has been or is wrong doing, that also is between them and the Lord and in due time it will be handled. We are not their judge. We either believe and obey their counsel or not. It is our responsibility to confirm their words and know whether they speaks truth or not and act then accordingly.

Her words were a little harsh for me…. but she has a right to air her grievances in a tone she feels inspired to do. By the same standard we should apply to the brethren, should be apply to all messengers and believers who issues warnings.

I’m tired of the rhetoric and speculation, the “lo here” and “lo there”, the sounding brass and tinkling cymbals, of “I think this” or “I think that.” I’m sick of scribes and pharisees. I want to eat and drink directly from the waters and tree of life, to hear directly from God or His true messengers, or true servants, ones who know as surely as they know that they live and the power of the Holy Ghost affirms it like fire. If you are one of these, please share what you can share. True messengers and servants try to teach others how to make the same direct divine connection as they have.

2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

Nephi inspires me. 1 Nephi 10-15. He saw and heard and knew Christ and witnessed him. Anyone like him inspires me by their testimony of the truth, no matter who scoffs or point their fingers in scorn. I want to fall down at the Tree of Life and partake of the fruit of eternal life and love of God.

Maybe this is why Jesus went into the wilderness for forty days. I’m not sure blogging and reading books, unless they are the words of Christ, is going to get any of us closer to where we want to be, except perhaps to increase our own desire to see, hear, and know for ourselves. Alas, there is no shortcut to further light and knowledge. We must commune with God to learn what only He can teach, the things which surpass all understanding and would not be lawful for us to tell each other.

Are we mighty and strong and chosen? More than likely we are unbelieving, proud, wicked, ignorant, stiffnecked children who need to humble ourselves in the dust. “Because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love.”

We gravitate towards and validate emotions we nurture to our souls. Be most wise about the emotions you let in. God’s approval will either eb or flow as a result. I testify as you love him and your neighbor as your self inspiration flows…. gratitude and love for all of you, Jared

All true, but we cannot be saved in ignorance. A closed mind will save no one. To seek further light and knowledge is a requirement.
I have a trip planned this week south to the desert, where I hear things being taught that ring true to my soul, and so I’ll go see, listen and feel with an open mind. And then fasting and mighty prayer will ensue in earnest!
Your brother in Christ

The LDS church is the gospel net which is being cast out and catches all sorts of fish. Then we have the gathering to be done by the angels who go through those fish, some of whom are smelly, and the angels seal those who are ready to a heavenly inheritance. No one with any sense will voluntarily remove himself from among the smelly fish because we are under covenant to reside with smelly fish until we become un-smelly (redeemed). The LDS church is the initial fishing vehicle. In reality, the vehicle is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. We use the Book of Mormon and the gospel of repentance to qualify to become “sealed” by angels and to enter the general assembly and the church of Enoch and of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:67) We live in a day where this is actually being taught by some and being accomplished by their faithful followers.

The Book of Mormon has all sorts of interesting things to say to us, the gentile church. There are only two churches after all. The Church of the Lamb of God (Church of the Firstborn) and the church of the devil. (1 Nephi 14:14) The LDS church is the path we follow so we may be qualified for the Church of the Firstborn. It is the vehicle provided to give us all of the ordinances to qualify for Eternal life. Our goal should be to use the LDS church to qualify for the higher church of the Firstborn membership. By covenant we cannot remove ourselves from obedience to the gospel we are sworn to uphold, and the vehicle, for now, is still the LDS church as I see it. That membership (in the LDS church) cannot bar us from seeking to know God as that is our responsibility to achieve while in the flesh.

Some are concerned that the “watchers” who have responsibility to point us to Christ are pointing instead to themselves. But our church leaders know that a testimony of man cannot save anyone. Running a corporation, even a good one, will save no one, unless that institution connects us with the Redeemer. Malls cannot save and neither can buildings or ranches. If the “watchers” are just watching the food court we are in trouble.

There is a puzzle caused by a concern that the LDS church is silencing those who are teaching that we can and should connect with Christ. The alleged censorship began with Bruce R. McConkie who criticized Brother George Pace for teaching us to develop a personal relationship with Christ. It arguably continues as some in the church feel compelled to silence or attempt to silence voices who are teaching that we can only be saved by knowing Christ. A testimony of the prophet is only good if you want to go to the telestial realms. (D&C 76: 99-100) Eternal life can only be achieved by knowing God, not some man, even a good man. Obviously a prophet can lead men astray. Nephi warns us of relying upon the arm of flesh.

Snuffer was thrown out of the LDS church for teaching the Book of Mormon. The only way to salvation is Jesus Christ. This is what Snuffer teaches. Is that such a bad thing to teach? The church feared some mud being thrown their way. But, that may explain why the church is still under condemnation for failure to teach the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon continually calls the church to repentance.

The Book of Mormon accuses us (the LDS church) of seeking the arm of flesh and saying “all is well,” (2 Nephi 28) instead of following the spirit. Nephi sees our day and says we have “all gone astray save it be a few.” That is because of pride, wickedness, abominations and whoredoms. The right way of the Lord is being perverted, by us. Those who call themselves Zion shall say (or even sing) “all is well.” “Yea, Zion prospereth.” (2 Nephi 28:21) Yea, Yea, Yea, we are so wonderful.

Moroni sees us and asks “why have ye polluted the holy church of God?” (Mormon 8:38) He accuses us of selling ourselves for that which will canker. Did he see our malls. Who is the holy church of God, if it is not us? And Moroni sees our day and asks why we have polluted the holy church.

We are accused by the Lord of treating the Book of Mormon lightly. We are still under condemnation for that failure. (D&C 84:54-58) We will receive a scourge and judgment to be poured out on us for that failure. (D&C 84:58)

Christ taught the Nephites something that the Father commanded Christ to teach the Nephites: “At that day when the Gentiles (LDS church) shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel. . . I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them.” (3 Nephi 16:10) We’re there. The gospel was originally given to the house of Israel who rejected it and it then was given to the gentiles. Now, in the last days, it was given to the gentiles (LDS church) who have now rejected the fullness and it will now be given back to the house of Israel. The fullness of the priesthood (Patriarchal Authority) was lost by the early LDS church by the time of Nauvoo. (D&C 124:28)

I am puzzled by various debates over the greatness of our church. Those who think the church is so great (and it is very good) fail to look at our church through the eyes of prophets as in Book of Mormon prophets. They see us as a bunch of screw-ups. Perhaps we should listen to what they say to us and about us.

Why would anyone who is seeking the Lord voluntarily remove themselves from full activity in a church and temple while believing the church is fallen or in the process of falling? Who is more worthy of temple blessings than someone who knows the truth about what is happening? Christ continued to help cleanse the temple even though he was cast out of the synagogue and he knew the High Priest (prophet) was out to kill him. If the church severs the covenant made with an individual, then that person will be free to teach openly about what is really going on.

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/21/13396374-mormon-in-america-meet-the-jacksons-a-modern-mormon-love-story
Some of you might want a glimpse and see what my mom was like? Seeing my sister in action, you see my mom:) Al, my sisters husband in the video after converting in his 20+ years in the church he has served in many capacities: branch pres; 2 times bishop brick counsler; bishop; stake presidency ; high council man etc. Now ,captain moroni this does not make. However, God is merciful and desires to bless us with our righteous desires (as you watch the video you will know where I’m coming from) May we all be people in Christ like captain moroni where the gates of hell are shut and shake continually before us as a result! 2 NEPHI 25:26 Christ truly is our all. May ee also live to make a reality of the words of this song in our walk and talk of life “I oh babylon oh babylon we bid thee farewell” ….. love for you all, Jared

I am trying to figure out what you are trying to say? You hold fast to the structure of the church and then on the other hand you deride them for their actions against those who testify against them? A little verbose. We are all interested in what you intended to say. Let’s narrow it down. What is it?

The Book of Mormon prophets tell us we, the LDS church, are in a state of apostasy. The D&C tells us we have lost the fullness of the priesthood. According to scripture we are a cursed and condemned people. This is born out by our actions such as Mountain Meadows murders and the adultery of our early church leaders. But we continue to say all is well. It is not well. When a true prophet, Snuffer, calls us to repentance, we (the LDS church) throw him out. But it is easier to help the church repent from within. Until they X all true believers we have a duty to help others repent using the church. Is that clearer.

A little better. You empasized the church quite heavily in the beginning. The Mountain Meadows massacre did not signify apostacy. That was the few. The apostacy happened somewhere bewteen 1834-35. The church functions only to keep the roots alive. It spreads the Book of Mormon and baptises with the preparatory priesthood, of which we have. But contained within the missionary church is the supposition that a prophet exists on the earth today to give continued revelation. That false assumption contained within the missionary dialogue stunts the process. The Church is the vehicle to get the Book of Mormon throughoput the world. Hopefully the participants can become closer to Christ in the process. You don’t need to be offended when the precept brought forward is unclear to all. We just wanted to know what your monologue was. I understand more fully after the last response.

With regard to the Gathering of Israel to first take place in the tops of the mountains, it’s my understanding this has a two fold meaning to it. The first meaning would involve the chief tribe of Israel ( Ephriam ), given the Birthright Blessing and tasked with the responsibility of first gathering themselves while headquartered in the tops of the mountains of the far west.

Once that was accomplished and Ephriam has been gathered, then the times of the Gentiles ( Ephriam ) will have been fulfilled and the time will come to gather the rest of Israel of the Lost Tribes.

The second meaning would involve the tops of the mountains being referred to as the tops of all nations in which the Lost Tribes have been scattered and have been pre gathered and are awaiting Ephriam’s que to begin the overall gathering to the New Jerusalem headquartered in Independence Mo. once the times of the gentiles has been fulfilled.

As far as Denver Snuffer being the Lord’s New prophet sent to lead the way to Zion is concerned, I would first ask him if the Lord, through personal visitation with him, has prescribed this. Anything of this magnitude would require this. I do believe everyone of the 144,000 angels of God from each of the tribes of Israel WILL become Prophets in their own right, yet lead by One Prophet. So he could be prefunctioning in THAT capacity while awaiting his call.

If Denver Snuffer makes the claim he is the one mighty & strong sent by God to place the Lord’s House in order and differenciates himself from the Prophets of the 144,000, I would ask him that question directly and then pray for confirmation, & not merely just rely on good feelings that leads one in that direction by virtue of truths he has taught. Satan can lure us in incrementally by presenting many truths that are ultimately designed to lead even the best of us off course.

I think the smart and surefire way to resolve that question is to stop speculating on it’s possibility and outright put a direct question to him that requires a yes or no answer and take that to the Lord. Or ask him if he be one of the 144,000 helping members and simply preparing for things to come when the Lord’s Work of separating the Goats from the sheep begins. Otherwise, we would be allowing ourselves to be strung along by many truths which may ultimately culminate in disappointing sorrow.

He COULD be a chosen man of God. But then it becomes an issue as to WHICH man of God he is. If Our Father & Brother in Heaven has confirmed himself through personal visitation and Vision to be the one mighty and strong, he would be entitled to reveal that to anyone who is honestly seeking an answer to that question. Otherwise he just keeps it to himself.

But if he is setting himself up to be this man and has not actually had this conformed to him by God through a personal visitation and visions imparted to him concerning this Great Work to come, and is honestly asked this question, he must answer it yea or ney and then you will KNOW FOR SURE what he is all about.

If he is a fraud, he will AVOID answering a direct question concerning what God already knows.

I forgot to mention that the Lord will not deny us the answers to ANY of the questions we may have concerning His Plan to redeem Israel, if the right questions are asked of the right persons and under the right circumstances.

He denies no individual who seeks these truths from knowing them, even before it’s time to begin His Great Work, when it is sprung on the opposition as a Great Surprise, as the time comes when He “Acts Suddenly” to expose the evil within Our Ranks.

He accomplishes this by sending the One Mighty and Strong “HOLDING the Scepter of POWER” to ENABLE him to do the Lord’s Work and is “Clothed with LIGHT” for a covering….Earthly flesh becomes Heavenly Flesh ( Angelic ).

These are things that should remain to one’s self until the honest and sincere question to know is asked of one of the Lord’s Servants. A sincere quest for truth is not met with denial. Those answers the Lord will give and the Lord will Confirm to those wanting to know.

Tim is a computer technology professional providing desktop support, network administration and systems management in the Small and Medium Business market. After twelve years, he recently retired as the IT Director for a private corporate jet management company located at the Burbank Bob Hope airport. He began his career as a programmer but switched to tech support many years ago. Tim is married, has one adult son, and is very active in his local community church. He spent two years in Central America as a missionary. He enjoys hiking, reading, research, writing, correspondence and has a special interest in alternative medicine and events of the last days. You can find him online every day on various internet communities and blogs, especially in the tech area. He maintains three blogs online, one on technology, one on current events and one on health research.