yep that is what I think too. I guess we will see this weekend. But if the MM's cant bring apple down by friday they will lose a truck load of money. All my position are in, I have protective puts in FEB and longs in JULY, so whatever happens I am covered. Still pretty interesting week.

One of the great ironies of the 21st century is that most of our marvelous hi-tech toys are made entirely by hand, in sweatshops, by desperate people whose pitiful wages can't purchase even one of the hugely profitable devices they make.

If you don't feel dirty, you aren't paying attention.

Have you seen the scale of electronics in a smartphone? Obviously not - because you woudn't make such a foolish statement as this. No human hand can place these parts precisely, with 99.999% accuracy, repeatedly - these boards are assembled by robotics. The assembled PCB's are then inserted into metal frames (also made robotically) and screws may be place, or glue. They are not entirely hand-made; and never were.

Or, would you prefer we build these products elsewhere, and let the 100's of thousands of Chinese workers lose their jobs? It's one of the stages of economic growth. At one point in time, the US was a source for cheap production (primarily agriculture). As a country develops, it moves from labor, to manufacturing and develops to Services. It's a stage that every country on the planet has undergone, since man started leaving footprints. Get over yourself.

I don't get the issue with children working as such. The fortunate few in the so called "west" seem quite enraged by it. Curious thing that, I suppose they want the children to die, or perhaps be picked up by a pimp for sale.

Children working has always been the way, it is only a recent perversion of the "west" that children should sit around screaming out their wants, to be waited on and then end up kinda useless when they pretend to step out on their own, like to the mail box.

This idea is quite stupid. Children are not supposed to work in industry. They are supposed to go to school and learn to read and do math as well as sports and other childlike activities. Doing errands at home or on a small family garden/farm after school or during the months when school is not in session is perfectly acceptable as long as it does not interfere with their studies.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for modern citizens to prefer that their products made overseas are not done so with child labor.

An interesting flip side to child labor is the recent trend in China where students are staying up all night in professional paid for after school study groups in order to excel in science. The government is actually driving around looking for lights on in business districts after midnight and cracking down on these shops for health reasons because the kids are not getting enough sleep.

Wage rates don't matter. What does matter is how many hours does someone have to work to afford a home or a refrigerator or food, etc.

That depends on what you mean by "matter". Look at all the articles accusing Apple of using slave labor because the Chinese get paid $17 per day. No one seems to mention that $17 per day (especially when you get to live in a dormitory and eat your meals for free) is a very attractive salary in China.

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Originally Posted by zoetmb

Brazil was very smart. They told Apple to either build the products there or face huge import taxes. So Apple had no choice. In the U.S., we let companies like Apple do whatever they want. I don't want to criticize Apple too much because they are expanding the number of employees in the U.S. and most of the jobs are well-paying jobs. Even the retail jobs, which don't pay all that well, pay more than factory jobs would have if Apple had factories (whether directly or indirectly) in the U.S.

It remains to be seen whether Brazil was smart. There is plenty of research that suggests that trade barriers hurts a country's economy in the long run.

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Originally Posted by zoetmb

What does surprise me is that it's Foxconn who is building the Brazilian factory. I would have thought it would have been a Brazilian company.

How many Brazilian companies have the experience, skills, and resources to do this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoetmb

My personal view, which I've expressed before is that ethical companies will build products close to the markets that they serve so that the people who buy the products get the benefits of the related factory jobs.

As for Apple, who I don't expect to change the policy of building in China (Brazil obviously excepted), they do need to insure that workers are treated decently with safety the primary consideration. Obviously, from that photo posted of Chinese job applicants, they want to work at Apple in spite of the reputed poor working conditions. But that's still no excuse for employees being exposed to toxic chemicals or subject to explosions caused by aluminum dust and the like. Apple may not own the factory per se, but they are going to take the hit to their reputation and brand when these things happen.

And Apple does far more than anyone else to prevent it.

Even in the U.S., people are exposed to unsafe working conditions. It is virtually impossible to ensure that no one ever gets injured or dies in a factory. What is necessary is for companies to make reasonable efforts to prevent it - and Apple is clearly doing so, unlike all of their competitors. Last year, during the suicide 'scandal', several subcontractors stated that Apple was the ONLY company to have ever audited them. And Apple has increased the frequency of its audits since then.

All the complaints against Apple are horribly misguided for that reason alone.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"Gatorguy 5/31/13

No doubt it's better than China, but the working conditions and wage rates are still far below the U.S. Since there has been so much complaining about wage rates and working conditions in China being below the U.S., I expect that it will continue with Brazil. Other than their maternity benefits, they are far behind the U.S. in almost every regard.

Agreed. And the jobs in the US just keep on going...all for greed and profits....oh and I guess for lobbying money too, can't forget that.

Now we'll get to hear people complaining that wage rates in Brazil are lower than the US and Apple is exploiting those poor Brazilians......

Only stupid or ignorant people would say that, usually the same people who think Brazil speaks Spanish, has Buenos Aires as its capital or is composed of indigenous "latinos" (whatever that term means).

Brazil, a traditional Western nation with overwhelmingly European roots, has one of the highest labor costs and an extremely rigid protection net for workers (it's much safer, legally, to be an employee in Brazil than in the US); this is why you don't see "Made in Brazil" in every product out there.

Obviously, AVERAGE salary levels are still lower than in the US or most of Western Europe; but they are FAR above anything like African countries, China or India - however, it must be noted that management- and C-level remuneration in Brazil is already the highest in the world, due to the attractiveness of that market, insufficient supply of extremely-skilled labor and the overall positive situation of the economy.

So Foxconn is going to Brazil because of three main reasons:

- Favorable tax incentives meant to lower the stupidly-high prices of electronics in Brazil (legacy of import substitution, high-tariff industrial policies and a lack of transparency on the part of companies there when it comes to pricing);
- Creation of an alternative shipping route to the US, as well as booming markets in Latin America and Africa;
- In order to cater to Brazil's gigantic market, its majoritary middle class and the increasing demand for Apple products, as already reported by Tim Cook.

No doubt it's better than China, but the working conditions and wage rates are still far below the U.S. Since there has been so much complaining about wage rates and working conditions in China being below the U.S., I expect that it will continue with Brazil. Other than their maternity benefits, they are far behind the U.S. in almost every regard.

Absolutely wrong, especially since these "reports" mainly talk about remote areas (Amazon and other hinterland) where enforcement of laws is lax, and which are obviously NOT targeted as industrial sites by a company such as Foxconn. Besides, São Paulo is the richest State in the country, with an overall level of development and GDP that rivals those of industrialized countries.

It's time to STOP thinking that Brazil is a little speck in the universe of countries - it has a territory as big as the continental US, with vastly different landscapes, development levels and demography - I can assure you there will be ZERO "child workers" at any Foxconn site over there...not to mention that at least we are not as racist as the US, which continues to have appalling crime levels in ghetto areas and virtually NO mixing between whites and blacks (35% of Brazilians are of mixed blood just as Obama, which is oddly called "black" in the US due to its racist "one drop" policy).

The U.S. should setup an industrial zone with special labor & tax laws that make it possible for FoxConn to setup factories in the U.S. Even though pay would be peanuts at least it would give teenagers an alternative to working at McDonald's.

Absolutely wrong, especially since these "reports" mainly talk about remote areas (Amazon and other hinterland) where enforcement of laws is lax, and which are obviously NOT targeted as industrial sites by a company such as Foxconn. Besides, São Paulo is the richest State in the country, with an overall level of development and GDP that rivals those of industrialized countries.

It's time to STOP thinking that Brazil is a little speck in the universe of countries - it has a territory as big as the continental US, with vastly different landscapes, development levels and demography - I can assure you there will be ZERO "child workers" at any Foxconn site over there...not to mention that at least we are not as racist as the US, which continues to have appalling crime levels in ghetto areas and virtually NO mixing between whites and blacks (35% of Brazilians are of mixed blood just as Obama, which is oddly called "black" in the US due to its racist "one drop" policy).

And why should we believe you rather than published reports?

For that matter, why should I believe you rather than my own eyes? I've been in parts of Rio that make Harlem look like paradise. So I'm well aware of how things are in Brazil.

The fact is that their standards for working conditions and wages are lower than in the U.S., so some people will be whining that Apple is using slave labor there, too.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"Gatorguy 5/31/13

For that matter, why should I believe you rather than my own eyes? I've been in parts of Rio that make Harlem look like paradise. So I'm well aware of how things are in Brazil.

The fact is that their standards for working conditions and wages are lower than in the U.S., so some people will be whining that Apple is using slave labor there, too.

You should believe me because I rely on facts, not hearsay or geographically-biased reports...and your reference to Rio is risible to say the least, when we all know that "rich" cities like New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C., Buffalo, Miami, Philly all have homicide rates which are from double to triple the rates of a large "violent" city like São Paulo or even Rio.

Even if average wage levels for blue collar workers may not (yet) be as high as in the US, at least labor rights and safety nets in Brazil are VASTLY superior to the legal slave labor in US, where people struggle to have even SEVEN days of vacation a year, not to mention the totally insecure conditions that make one be hired one day and fired the next by ruthless employers.

Again, try to do your homework instead of thinking that São Paulo is in the middle of the Amazon jungle...and I say that both as a Brazilian AND someone married to an American girl (having been to many good and not-so-good parts of your country as well).

To believe some nonsensical allegation that São Paulo's Foxconn factories are gonna have "slaves" or "child" workers like in China is gullible, to say the least - unless you also think we speak Spanish, of course.

not to mention that at least we are not as racist as the US, which continues to have appalling crime levels in ghetto areas and virtually NO mixing between whites and blacks (35% of Brazilians are of mixed blood just as Obama, which is oddly called "black" in the US due to its racist "one drop" policy).

Careful! You are letting your "I am from the developing world, therefore even though I am wealthy and educated, I still believe in lots of conspiracy theories," aspect show.

He is called black because he looks black, and if he came out looking the other way he would be called the other. No one believes in "one drop" nonsense.

They should build one in every right to work state and only hire workers that never were associated with a union. I can't believe that Brazil is turning out more engineers and tech works than us.

These aren't engineering or tech jobs.

These are tedious manufacturing jobs. Person puts parts A, B C on part D. Machine solders A, B, C to D. Person puts parts E, F, and G on D and hooks wires up. There is no thought in it, just procedure. And you do the same thing, over and over and over...

You might find a few high-school graduates or high-school drop-outs in the US or Canada to do it. Certainly any University engineering or tech graduate won't want the job.

Careful! You are letting your "I am from the developing world, therefore even though I am wealthy and educated, I still believe in lots of conspiracy theories," aspect show.

He is called black because he looks black, and if he came out looking the other way he would be called the other. No one believes in "one drop" nonsense.

Please stop your nonsense - Brazil is the 6th economy in the world with just under 200 million inhabitants. I don't need to exercise any inferiority complex; as part of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society (I am mainly of Italian origins, just like 70% of people in my State), I just like to break old stereotypes embraced by people like you.

Obama is called black because the old "anglo-saxon" settlers in the US think that the country should remain white and unmixed, that's all.

So people came up with the infamous one-drop rule whereby anyone with a bit of African heritage is BLACK, no matter how WHITE he looks. In Brazil, on the other hand, at least 40% of the population is of mixed race - so even stupid afirmative action laws wouldn't apply there, because IN FACT most people living in slums are actually WHITE - prejudice there is against the poor, not against the colored.

Once more: Obama is a MULATTO, a biracial person, half-black/half-white if you prefer.

As for the "ironic" comments on the aforementioned rule, check below before spouting self-righteous words:

These are tedious manufacturing jobs. Person puts parts A, B C on part D. Machine solders A, B, C to D. Person puts parts E, F, and G on D and hooks wires up. There is no thought in it, just procedure. And you do the same thing, over and over and over...

You might find a few high-school graduates or high-school drop-outs in the US or Canada to do it. Certainly any University engineering or tech graduate won't want the job.

So let me understand it:

- The US only has highly-skilled workers, of course...that's the kind of thing I see all over your impoverished South;

- these lowly jobs should remain in China because we are oh-so-educated, right?

One of the great ironies of the 21st century is that most of our marvelous hi-tech toys are made entirely by hand, in sweatshops, by desperate people whose pitiful wages can't purchase even one of the hugely profitable devices they make.

You should believe me because I rely on facts, not hearsay or geographically-biased reports...and your reference to Rio is risible to say the least, when we all know that "rich" cities like New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C., Buffalo, Miami, Philly all have homicide rates which are from double to triple the rates of a large "violent" city like São Paulo or even Rio.

Even if average wage levels for blue collar workers may not (yet) be as high as in the US, at least labor rights and safety nets in Brazil are VASTLY superior to the legal slave labor in US, where people struggle to have even SEVEN days of vacation a year, not to mention the totally insecure conditions that make one be hired one day and fired the next by ruthless employers.

Again, try to do your homework instead of thinking that São Paulo is in the middle of the Amazon jungle...and I say that both as a Brazilian AND someone married to an American girl (having been to many good and not-so-good parts of your country as well).

To believe some nonsensical allegation that São Paulo's Foxconn factories are gonna have "slaves" or "child" workers like in China is gullible, to say the least - unless you also think we speak Spanish, of course.

Not to mention, of course, that you're completely misquoting me. I specifically said (several times) that Brazil was better than China.

And stop with the stupid name-calling and allegations. Not everyone is as uneducated about foreign countries as you appear to be. As I said, I've been in Brazil (along with 27 other countries), so I have a fairly global perspective.

"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"Gatorguy 5/31/13

If apple can ask Foxconn to build in brazil, they can ask Foxconn to build in the USA. Our supply chain is not inferior.

Foxconn needs engineers, less regulation of factory design and waste outputs, less liability, and low wages as much as it needs a supply line. Access to all the South and North American markets is another huge plus. Steve Jobs said it pretty clearly to the President, "Those jobs are not coming back." Any other view of the situation is a pipe dream.

On a side note, this sounds like Foxconn decided to produce the robotics style factories in Brazil rather than replace the workers at the Chinese factory with robots. In China a factory to produce iPhones has hundreds of thousands of workers. They are only talking about 1000? Can any one else come up with an explanation for the difference?

So people came up with the infamous one-drop rule whereby anyone with a bit of African heritage is BLACK, no matter how WHITE he looks. In Brazil, on the other hand, at least 40% of the population is of mixed race - so even stupid afirmative action laws wouldn't apply there, because IN FACT most people living in slums are actually WHITE - prejudice there is against the poor, not against the colored.

Once more: Obama is a MULATTO, a biracial person, half-black/half-white if you prefer.

As for the "ironic" comments on the aforementioned rule, check below before spouting self-righteous words:

Um, Obama is called "black" because that's how he views himself. He self-identifies as black.

Why don't we ask the people in question? The only people who I ever hear spouting off about this "one drop" nonsense are white people who want to appear anti-racist and enlightened. How about we appreciate your diversity? You act like its offensive to call Obama black.

Normally, people who are darker identify themselves as "black", also sometimes to identify with part of their heritage. I refer to myself as "white" even though I have pigment.

Also, I don't know where you've been, but there isn't segregation where I'm from, and a lot of my friends are married to people of different races, with "mixed" offspring to boot.

Wage rates don't matter. What does matter is how many hours does someone have to work to afford a home or a refrigerator or food, etc.

Brazil was very smart. They told Apple to either build the products there or face huge import taxes. So Apple had no choice. In the U.S., we let companies like Apple do whatever they want. I don't want to criticize Apple too much because they are expanding the number of employees in the U.S. and most of the jobs are well-paying jobs. Even the retail jobs, which don't pay all that well, pay more than factory jobs would have if Apple had factories (whether directly or indirectly) in the U.S.

What does surprise me is that it's Foxconn who is building the Brazilian factory. I would have thought it would have been a Brazilian company.

My personal view, which I've expressed before is that ethical companies will build products close to the markets that they serve so that the people who buy the products get the benefits of the related factory jobs. .

No, Apple was very smart. Brazil didn't tell them anything. Like most imported products, an iPad will cost between 3-4x what it costs in the US. Import duties alone will double the price, the rest is freight and mostly price gouging, even when sold by Apple themselves. Then factor in the average Brazilian wage and that 4x becomes 8-10x. It's rediculous. What's more, if you think that now (soon maybe, no Brazilian made iPads are shipping yet even though they were supposed to start producong them last November), Brazilians will have access to iPads at comparable prices to the US, think again. Brazil is not China by a long shot, but Apple will certainly sell factory loads of Brazilian built iPads at even 2-3x what American pay for them. See? WIN, WIN situation! Just like the Brazilian auto industry! Cheers

It may be that one day, intercontinental shipping costs will severely impact profitability. Brazil servicing South America, Turkey servicing Europe and the Middle East, China servicing Asia and (eventually?), South Africa supplying Africa is a developing pattern that will permit overland transportation. Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.

Did Steve Jobs say in his response to Obama's question, that 'those jobs would not be returning to the U.S.'? This might be telling in that Apple might be waiting until they have developed and refined robotic systems to the point where manufacturing in more (labour) expensive countries becomes attractive, in which case those jobs would not need to return.

As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods and given Australia's population and demand, Apple will probably wear the cost of shipping.

Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.

I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America — still part of the N. American continent — is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.

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As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods...

That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America still part of the N. American continent is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.

That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.

I guess that at the moment, security and cost of manufacture are the issues, shipping it seems is quite cheap. Apparently for example, it costs about $25 per tonne to ship ore from Australia to Europe.

Obviously, from that photo posted of Chinese job applicants, they want to work at Apple in spite of the reputed poor working conditions.

Just to clarify something. they are NOT working at Apple. They are working for a company that has Apple as one of over a dozen clients.

Even if Apple demands better conditions for the workers that deal with their products, what about the other 800k or so people that make XBoxes etc. You know, the group that had a mass suicide threat a few weeks ago (and was larger than the total number of actual jumpers for like the last 5 years)

I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America still part of the N. American continent is much more likely for a Foxconn factory.

Which part of Mexico? Doesn't matter, I suppose; Apple could use their $100B to buy a private military and protect their factory from the drug lords.

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Originally Posted by SolipsismX

Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.

They could use the robots as soldiers. The robots would be controlled by Siri. Don't make Siri mad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX

That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.