Please correct me if I am wrong on this. I do not own UE and am working off of memory (Courageous = + 1/2 weapon enchantment bonus to all morale bonuses).

I would agree with people that Courageous is a decent enchantment to grab. The problem I see is that you need a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon before you begin to see the effects on you damage/hit/hp (unless you are at an odd ability score). I think where this shines is saves ...... superstition is a moral bonus.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this. I do not own UE and am working off of memory (Courageous = + 1/2 weapon enchantment bonus to all morale bonuses).

I would agree with people that Courageous is a decent enchantment to grab. The problem I see is that you need a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon before you begin to see the effects on you damage/hit/hp (unless you are at an odd ability score). I think where this shines is saves ...... superstition is a moral bonus.

Things that are a morale bonus:

-RAGE
-Superstition
-Your generic will save bonus that applies if it's somehow not a Spell, SLA, or Su.
-Any of the stuff that Bard in the back does.
-Surprise Accuracy

I struggle with the value of Spell Sunder. I think it's absolutely great, but in a well balanced party, it seems there is little need for it when either the wizard and/or cleric will have dispel magic anyway.

On the subject of Courageous Weapons - I think Furious arguably provides more bang for the buck at lower levels, but a barbarian should add Courageous to his weapon as soon as he can afford it after Furious.

At best you need a +4 weapon with furious on it to gain the total +3 from courageous. The +3 is only good if the numbers it's added to, score wise, is an odd number. For everything else like Trina's just mentioned the +3 is highly beneficial.

+4 keen, dueling-fg, furious, courageous falchion coming up.

As for spell sunder... The casters can't dispel whenever they want. For as long as I have a rage round left, which is much more than the casters have slots, I can spell sunder. Plus no concentration checks or spell failure. All. Need is to pump up my sunder CMB and m golden. Plus it works on multiple levels. Spells period, spells on creatures, spells on objects.... Get another rage power, and I can temp. Stop enchantments and enhancements on items. Casters can't.

Btw, what's the best or a really good option for a reach weapon?

I currently only use my falchion for the high crit range... Read somewhere that there is a cutoff for where a great sword or something similar is not as good as a falchion when your adding hard numbers for damage past like +20 or something.

I'm also not aware of many Caster Level check bonuses as effective as Strength Surge.
(or True Strike always works... get a Familiar via Eldritch Heritage to use it on you)
For fights vs. higher level BBEG casters, especially the nasty, optimized kind, Spell Sunder is great...
Going Dwarf is kind of the way to go if you don't want to deal with the hassle of Superstitious but like godly Saves,
and you can use the ARG material to access Spell Sunder without Superstitious.

+1 on the Surprise Accuracy mention, especially with Courageous to boost it, and even without it's definitely useful for getting big to-hit, e.g. vs. mega-CMD or uber-AC opponents... At later levels I might say that it combined with Courageous means you don't need Ferocious any more (at low levels Ferocious is probably a good idea).
There's multiple other to-hit boosts, but many of them are limited in some way, so having another option is always great, especially if you don't want to drop Rage (because you want both on-your-turn and off-your-turn benefits of Rage - how many times per round you can use the Free Action to enter/drop Rage is entirely up to the GM, so multiple Rage entries/round, at extra rage round cost, is not always an option).

The mention of this deathless build that can fight at huge negative HPs
reminds me of my idea for an alternate approach to Rage HPs that boosted one's 'death point' massively... (without lessening healing/cure needs)
I'd be interested to see how you work that idea out with RAW options.

but i just looked it up now (d2pfsrd), and it is a *10th level Fighter* pre-req Feat (Dwarf only),
so you are going to be very deep Ftr/Barb multiclass if you can make use of it w/ Barbarian Strength Surge.
Given Ferocious, Courageous, and Steel Soul, that could still be combo that's very workable though.

I'd rather go the 6 levels barbarian to get spell sunder than to have to go 10 levels as a dwarf fighter for the same thing. Besides barbarian is better all around for those 4 extra levels.

As for sunder, let's run some numbers.

First, the dueling property, the one from the field guide, does boost sunder even if not listed, because it's the only combat maneuver NOT listed for the property,which makes no sense, especially since it is for doing the CMB with your weapon. They need to update and fix it to include sunder. If they dont , they STILL need to mention sunder if it works or of it doesn't. With that in mind...

I'd like to see a caster try to dispel with that type of number at level 10. I can dispel any magic on a creature with a caster level 28 or lower, at level 10. Oh yeah, now the barbarian is working.

If your DM doesn't allow the dueling property, or how it really works, the your CMB is +35. On our typically CR 14 minster is in the high 30's to low 40's for CMD. Meaning you need less than a 10 to hit.

IMPROVED SUNDER: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.

SPELL SUNDER: Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.

Wouldn't the bonus for Improved Sunder NOT be added to spell sunder checks since the barbarian isn't trying to sunder an item? I understand Improved Sunder allows the barbarian to avoid the AoO when spell sundering, but can someone explain if/how they'd still add the +2 sunder item bonus?

Hmm, forgot that part. Even still, it's a +47....or +33 CMB, depending as I posted, still huge numbers. The +2 is giving you a small bump if your GM does not allow dueling, if they do, as mine does, so this works for me, then the bump isn't as significant considering the dueling property will by itself add +14, so a +2 bonus is not that big a deal.

This is huge reason for why I want paizo to errata the dueling ability to include it in the listing for its use. Even if th say Dundee doesn,t they need to list that. It's the only combat maneuver not mentioned, and the ONLY combat maneuver, outside those using IUS or something that makes their natural attacks as weapons. To sunder, you practically need a weapon, same as trip or disarm. To not include it is nonsensical.

Edit: btw, seeing as ow it came up in my groups Thursday game, with me trying to do it...

It migh, I repeat might, be possible to sunder a construct. If you look up what a construct is it names two things. Either an OBJECT which has been made animated by magic OR it was artificially crafted using alchemical power runes and carvings and such, by using the craft construct feat. So again, one way is by magic the other is not. If you can get your party casters to find out which one of these the construct falls into, you could possibly sunder the magic of the animated object. Also, you could sunder the construct normally because for that choice IT IS an object. Unless it changed that fact when it becomes animated and is now oly a construct and not an BN, which makes no sense and seeing as how I mentioned constructs are either an object or artificially created, than you could sunder it as well.

IMPROVED SUNDER: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.

SPELL SUNDER: Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.

Wouldn't the bonus for Improved Sunder NOT be added to spell sunder checks since the barbarian isn't trying to sunder an item? I understand Improved Sunder allows the barbarian to avoid the AoO when spell sundering, but can someone explain if/how they'd still add the +2 sunder item bonus?

Normally, Sunder only works on items. Spell Sunder gives you a new way to use Sunder, so it is considered a Sunder for the purposes of everything that has to do with Sundering. In effect, it's making the spell into a 'Sunderable Item' because you just punch that hard.

It migh, I repeat might, be possible to sunder a construct. If you look up what a construct is it names two things. Either an OBJECT which has been made animated by magic OR it was artificially crafted using alchemical power runes and carvings and such, by using the craft construct feat. So again, one way is by magic the other is not. If you can get your party casters to find out which one of these the construct falls into, you could possibly sunder the magic of the animated object. Also, you could sunder the construct normally because for that choice IT IS an object. Unless it changed that fact when it becomes animated and is now oly a construct and not an BN, which makes no sense and seeing as how I mentioned constructs are either an object or artificially created, than you could sunder it as well.

You can 'Sunder' any construct by reducing its HP to 0, but you can't Spell Sunder it to remove the spark; that isn't considered an active spell. And sadly, it isn't considered a Sunder too reduce its HP to 0. :(

The spark as you put it, is for one of the two ways that a construct is made and you should be able to considering the spell as listed is animate object.

Also, you can sunder it if it is an object because just reducing it to 0 HP is merely destroying it. If

Quote:

Construct: A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature.

- Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).

Animated Objects: An animated object is not simply one monster, but a whole category. Stats are included here for Tiny through Colossal animated objects (with Construction Points that have not been spent to gain additional abilities), but any object can become animated, most commonly via the spell animate objects. Permanent animated objects can be built using the Craft Construct feat. Unless an animated object uses a Construction Point to be made of another material, all animated objects are made of wood or material of equivalent hardness.

Based on this, you CAN spell sunder the animate object spell on the construct if it was made that way. Using terms like life force, or spark take away from the actual meaning are not RAW or even RAI. It makes it easier for people to understand, but not at the expense of using it to explain why my barbarian can't remove the magic that holds it together.

As for Sunderland the construct the normal way vs. just damaging it, what about if your sunder numbers are higher than your normal attack numbers? Also, what about their AC vs. their CMD? Which is higher? In the case for me, it might be easier for me to sunder them than to just attack because the numbers to hit can be that much easier for me. Again, this only works for constructs, but they have always been a special case for many things.

As an orc, endurance is virtually free (Shaman's apprentice lets you trade a +2 skill bonus for it). Die Hard is required - we're going to be at -HP a lot, and we'd better not actually die when we're down there.

We're too stupid to get combat expertise. So Stalwart/Improved Stalwart, with acrobatics, would net us like 6 DR total. Which seems iffy, given that we already don't have a ton of feats hanging around.

-Cross

Well, you spend two feats on Extra Rage Power: Increased Damage Reduction, which are trading two feats for a total of +2 DR while raging. Those two feats could instead be spent on Stalwart and Improved Stalwart, and with the requisite ranks in Acrobatics, you have the option of taking a -4 penalty on attack rolls for +6 DR. Not sure how I feel about trading a semi-permanent DR 2, for the option of getting DR 6 at a significant, though not insurmountable, to-hit penalty.

However, you could ALSO pick up Crane Style in place of something else to instead make that a -2 attack penalty for +8 DR. That's pretty hefty, and I'd argue much better than a passive 3 DR. You could drop the two ERP: DR from Stalwart/Improved, and replace Increased DR when you take it at lvl 8 with a different rage power from later in the progression. If you still want the ERP:IDR, you could pick one or two up later in the progression perhaps.

As an orc, endurance is virtually free (Shaman's apprentice lets you trade a +2 skill bonus for it). Die Hard is required - we're going to be at -HP a lot, and we'd better not actually die when we're down there.

We're too stupid to get combat expertise. So Stalwart/Improved Stalwart, with acrobatics, would net us like 6 DR total. Which seems iffy, given that we already don't have a ton of feats hanging around.

-Cross

Well, you spend two feats on Extra Rage Power: Increased Damage Reduction, which are trading two feats for a total of +2 DR while raging. Those two feats could instead be spent on Stalwart and Improved Stalwart, and with the requisite ranks in Acrobatics, you have the option of taking a -4 penalty on attack rolls for +6 DR. Not sure how I feel about trading a semi-permanent DR 2, for the option of getting DR 6 at a significant, though not insurmountable, to-hit penalty.

However, you could ALSO pick up Crane Style in place of something else to instead make that a -2 attack penalty for +8 DR. That's pretty hefty, and I'd argue much better than a passive 3 DR. You could drop the two ERP: DR from Stalwart/Improved, and replace Increased DR when you take it at lvl 8 with a different rage power from later in the progression. If you still want the ERP:IDR, you could pick one or two up later in the progression perhaps.

As noted in my above post, the DR from the rage power gets doubled against nonlethal damage, which you're going to be taking all the time. So you're spending 3 feats for 6 DR.

If you get crane style some way other than unarmed master, you're blowing 2 feats as a pre-req, which is a waste. If you get it with unarmed master, you're losing a level of barbarian - half a rage power, and 2 DR every odd level.

I'd rather rage cycle now with the stubborn cord belt. Now my invulnerable eager will take 0 damage, not have to cross class to oracle for a level, and lose out on many benefits earlier, with one item.

Rage Prophet lets you cast cure spells on yourself while raging, and later cast "personal" range spells on yourself while raging.

If I have Superstition, do I have to save against my own cure spells (most personal range spells don't have a save)?

If so, it seems pretty harsh on all the Rage Prophets out there with Superstition. And yeah, I know I can rage-cycle or moment of clarity in order to cast, but that seems to miss the point of the Ragecaster ability.

What are people's opinions? My GM has ruled that my character won't have to save against spells he casts himself while raging.

Edit to include the relevant wording:

Superstition wrote:

While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

Usually you're your own ally, right? It seems like Paizo either missed this issue, intended the Rage Prophet abilities to bypass it, or intended Rage Prophets not to take Superstition.

Rage Prophet lets you cast cure spells on yourself while raging, and later cast "personal" range spells on yourself while raging.

If I have Superstition, do I have to save against my own cure spells (most personal range spells don't have a save)?

If so, it seems pretty harsh on all the Rage Prophets out there with Superstition. And yeah, I know I can rage-cycle or moment of clarity in order to cast, but that seems to miss the point of the Ragecaster ability.

What are people's opinions? My GM has ruled that my character won't have to save against spells he casts himself while raging.

Edit to include the relevant wording:

Superstition wrote:

While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

Usually you're your own ally, right? It seems like Paizo either missed this issue, intended the Rage Prophet abilities to bypass it, or intended Rage Prophets not to take Superstition.

Bolded your quote for emphasis. Superstition means you always have to make a save while raging. It's not completely bad as even when you save you still get half healing. The only healing I have seen that does not require a save is positive energy channeling. No saves are required when your not raging.

I'd rather rage cycle now with the stubborn cord belt. Now my invulnerable eager will take 0 damage, not have to cross class to oracle for a level, and lose out on many benefits earlier, with one item.

The downside is that they made that item a belt! I am sure it was done in part to balance the items out. However, in a PFS setting that makes it extremely hard to justify (PFS can not combine multiple magic effects into one item). The Ioun stone + rage power is a way to have both.

In addition, I have found GM's in PFS to be very against the idea of rage cycling as a misuse of RAW rather than a class feature. This is a reason why I wish they would come out and say whether rage cycling is ok or not.

I think Rhino Hide armor is balanced around the concept of only being used by a character without pounce, but I think that they didn't write it well and opened it up to being useable by pouncing characters.

If you think about it, 2d6 averages out to 7 damage, which means you're averaging an extra 7 damage on a charge as a normal character.

Considering that now characters can get multiple attacks and pounce, it gets significantly better, possibly granting upwards of 28-35 average damage a round for characters who manage to land all their attacks.

As I read the armor, I think it works for pouncing characters. I don't however believe it was intended to work that way, although I could certainly be wrong.

I believe that SKR wrote that Rhino Hide only applies to ONE attack, so it's certailny still GOOD if you are a Pounce/Charger, but it isn't EXPONENTIALLY GOOD.

that's certainly not RAW, but what the heck...
(i hit the FAQ though, since that's certainly not legit enough for PFS, since it's not even close to a plausible interpretation of RAW, but something totally distinct)

Wasting a crucial feat, so that it can combo with a weapon ability, and only at higher levels, due to the +5 enh. Total price, doesn't seem worth it at all. On top of that, the feat is very limiting in its use. Only in certain conditions.

Considering how 4 feats (weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, and greater weapon specialization) can only net you a +2 to hit and +4 to damage...I'd say that one feat that can give you +3 to hit and damage is pretty sweet.

Granted, I wouldn't take this feat until late level, but I would still consider it a very worthwhile feat investment. The conditions aren't that hard to meet, especially if you tell your party 'BARBARIAN FIGHT BETTER ALONE. DON'T VIOLATE BARBARIAN SPACE BUBBLE! SPACE IS VERY IMPORTANT! 10 FEET AWAY AT ALL TIMES (UNLESS YOU ARE HOT AND SEXY LADY, THEN BARBARIAN MAKE EXCEPTION)!

It is awesome if...
1) It applies to all attacks on a pounce
2) You can further enhance it

If these things don't apply I would skip it. Aka....it's not a great PFS choice because named armor can not be further enhanced. Thus you have a barbarian with very little survivability. I went the +1 mithril agile breastplate with moderate fortification route for my barbarian. Gives much greater survivability and to be honest the extra 2d6 on a pounce is wasted because most things die when I full attack them anyway. Dead is dead.

i agree with Lab_Rat's point on #2, if you can't further enhance Rhino Hide it quickly begins to suck...
at least if you're the type who actually cares about their armor/AC/etc... if you don't, just use it for it's offence ability.

re: #1, I think it's still great for just 1 attack, assuming you CAN further enhance the armor, the Rhino Hide is just a +flat cost adjustment, not an Enhancement Bonus equivalent.

Also, you may likely be able to afford Rhino Hide armor before gaining Pounce, in which case you will get alot of use out of it, and may as well keep it (if you don't care about further armor/are able to further enhance the Rhino Hide).

I don't really go for AC beyond the 1st 5 or so levels, I feel it's a losing game for players at high levels.

If AC scaled linearly, that would be one thing, but I find at higher levels, while I wouldn't call it "Exponential," the AC curve does increase drastically.

This means that unless your AC is ridiculously high (Which more likely than not means you sacrificed in other areas to get it that high) you are going to be hit rather consistently by monsters. And even if your AC is ridiculously high, can you say the same about your saves? What about your CMD? Because if you're dumping all your money and other resources into AC, those are resources that aren't being used to protect you from things like will saves and being grappled.

I prefer to go the mitigation route at higher levels. Stack things like DR, Shield Other/Ring of Friend Shield, Energy Resistance, and have a big HP pool. That way you can take hits, reduce the damage, and patch up faster.

I don't really go for AC beyond the 1st 5 or so levels, I feel it's a losing game for players at high levels.

If AC scaled linearly, that would be one thing, but I find at higher levels, while I wouldn't call it "Exponential," the AC curve does increase drastically.

This means that unless your AC is ridiculously high (Which more likely than not means you sacrificed in other areas to get it that high) you are going to be hit rather consistently by monsters. And even if your AC is ridiculously high, can you say the same about your saves? What about your CMD? Because if you're dumping all your money and other resources into AC, those are resources that aren't being used to protect you from things like will saves and being grappled.

I prefer to go the mitigation route at higher levels. Stack things like DR, Shield Other/Ring of Friend Shield, Energy Resistance, and have a big HP pool. That way you can take hits, reduce the damage, and patch up faster.

This definitely holds true for barbarians more than other classes. The big issue is the #2 that I brought up. If you can not further enhance Rhino Hide then it's not worth it in the long run.

For a barbarian, the armor enhancement of choice is fortification. Start out at light and just keep on upgrading it until you hit heavy. With such a huge hit point pool the only thing that is really going to knock you down and kill you is a massive crit. The more you can negate that chance the better off you are.

Sadly, extracts and mutagens do not function in the same way as potions or Ale, and here is the explanation why:

typically speaking, a player must spend a move action to retrieve a potion, and then must spend another move action to drink it. However, Extracts and Mutagens specifically bypass this limitation and only require a 'standard action' to retrieve AND drink.

Oh, and for added benefits of my 'weapon trick', go ahead and take Ghost Rager as well. Basically, if you combine Ghost Rager with your huge Superstition bonus combined with the benefits of a Courageous weapon, you basically become immune to touch attacks as well.