August 24, 2011

Does it matter that he used an alias in the movies? That he won awards for his film performances?

[Shawn] Loftis was suspended from his substitute teaching position in the Miami-Dade County Public Schools in January; his teacher's certification was revoked in April, despite his insistence that his porn days were over.

Loftis' porn shtick was to film in exotic locations around the world and slide sight-seeing and history segments into the dirty flicks. He took a similar travel-focused approach to his citizen-reporting gig with CNN.

Loftis is a popular CNN "citizen reporter." Here's one of his clips:

He'd left porn to go into teaching. Now, kicked out of teaching, he's back to porn.

Would you fire a teacher because he used to be a porn actor?

Yes. No matter how good a teacher he was.

Yes, but only if there were some other problems.

No. But this could be a factor if there were serious other problems.

No. This should not be a factor at all.

No. It's to his credit that he had a successful porn career and left it to teach.

ADDED: This may be a remnant of an old belief that teachers of young children shouldn't be sexually active at all. My maternal grandmother was a teacher at a time when female teachers were required to remain single. She hid her marriage to retain her job.

Schools are part of city and town services, which invariably are funded by taxpayers, and hence should be responsive to the taxpayers' wishes.

As a parent I'd have a hard time (no pun intended) if my kids were in his class. I'm guessing enough parents felt the same way, put pressure on the school board, and the board acted accordingly. Democracy in action. No big deal in my book. Sorry; our choices do have consequences. There are lots of other jobs this guy can do.

It's going to get out no matter what, and there's no way for the kids to take him seriously once it does. Plus, the kids shouldn't be considering that sort of thing, or trying to normalize it. I can't think of a non-sex related hypothetical that would be similar, but I'm sure that there is one (Maybe if he were one of the Jackass guys? That would be enough to say no teaching, IMO.)

Didn't we have almost this exact problem before with a woman? Seems like there was something more shady about her, though...changed her name? Ex-soldier?

Regardless, my takeaway from that discussion was one of maintaining the credibility of the authority figure that is the teach in the classroom. It ruined hers, it ruins his.

The gay thing doesn't matter to anybody except those it matters to, if you get my meaning. For students who consider it a big deal, the teacher's credibility of authority is eroded even further than what it would be for mere porn.

At some level, teachers need to have the appearance of being role models. In the world of google, when kids take classes on being computer literate, how can one not expect that on the first day of google instruction, the kids won't google their name and the name of , oh say their teacher?

which leads you in two steps from Shawn Loftis to Collin O'Neal to "World of Men", to supension from school for bringing gay porn into the classroom.

Get an A in Google, get suspended.

I'd feel the same about Linda Lovelace. Ex-Porn stars will never work out as middle school teachers, children being children. parents being parents.

So redemption plays no part in Pogo's morality? I'm not saying Loftis has "redeemed" himself or even claimed to have done so. I'm just curious how the people who are former "insert bad social stuff here" ever reenter a society where Pogo controls the rules. I'm also curious why a person with a drug addiction, or who has sex for money (on camera or off), is equated with terrorists. Jenna Jamison = Mohammed Atta in Pogo's world? BTW, Casey Anthony wasn't accused of killing other people's kids, just her own.

It's a legal profession. [Or, one could say, it's a branch of the legal profession.]

How about firing teachers because they were/are liberals. They would probably corrupt the students more than a former porn star. Conservative parents should get up and make a stink about it; let's see what happens.

ALL of the examples Pogo gave involved criminal behavior and/or terrorists, which isn't really comparable to being in the porn industry. Are there any legal professions that ya'll beleive should disqualify someone, for life, from teaching? That's all I'm asking...

Just another reason for Libertarians to build that floating libertarian utopia out at sea - porn actors can moonlight as teachers, or vice versa - I mean, it's nobody's business which one is the real job and which is the part time one, right?

"I'm just curious how the people who are former "insert bad social stuff here" ever reenter a society where Pogo controls the rules."

There are more jobs than teaching.

"I'm also curious why a person with a drug addiction, or who has sex for money (on camera or off), is equated with terrorists."

No, actually you're not because it was a list of credentials one wouldn't want a teacher to have. In that manner, and that manner only, was he equating the two. But you knew that, you were being disingenuous.

"BTW, Casey Anthony wasn't accused of killing other people's kids, just her own."

The question, from an employment standpoint, is what did the school district know when they hired him? If they didn't know about it, I'd say he's got a disclosure issue regarding other employment. Depends on the local rules/statutes.

My standpoint on whether it's "right" to allow gay porn (or any porn) actors to teach middle-school children boils down to what I want my children to think is "right". In the last year, my oldest has gotten seriously involved with a wonderful girl at college. They've come home to visit a couple of times and she's definitely a keeper. The first time they were due to arrive to stay for the weekend, my wife and I were discussing sleeping arrangements. Initially, I didn't really think about anything other than the fact that I was pretty damned sure they were sleeping together at school, so it didn't really matter to me for them to share a fold-out in my house.

My mother made a very good point. When I was that age, she was adamant about girlfriends sleeping separately until they became wives. She pointed out that while it was a moral question for her and asked if things like that instilled a healthy respect and regard for marriage over just shacking up. I couldn't say that it didn't.

In other words, if you value marriage, there is a certain level of discipline you have to have about the topic if you want to instill that or inspire that in your kids.

I bring this up because I believe it's the same with porn and, depending on your outlook, gay porn. If you want to instill or inspire a certain regard for porn in your children, a certain level of discipline, including lines in the sand, must be maintained.

Pornstar (and arguably KKK Dragon) do not necessarily include criminal activity. I assume that Miami Dade does a background check on their employees and he cleared that check initially. Did they reconsider his morals based on the porn revelation? Do they doubt his ability to teach or control a class room based on the disclosure? Even if he can be fired for his past how does a teacher's certificate get revoked?

"Buried in the story is the information that he was in "non-compliance with the school's code of ethics.""

I know, and it made me wonder if there's more to it, for example, it seems likely that he was required to fill out a form listing his past occupations and that he left that out. If they could have refused to hire him on this ground but didn't know it, I think they should be able to fire him for it.

But I don't think this should be a reason not to hire someone.

I certainly don't think he seems like he might do something sexual with children. Quite the opposite!

Redemption has nothing to do with this. You're implying pornography is a bad thing (hence the need for redemption) while simultaneously implying it is not a big deal or disqualifying condition when it comes to teaching children.

The guy can still do just about anything he else wants. I'm not saying he's a bad guy and I'm not even saying pornography is an evil industry. It just doesn't mix with school kids.

I can't believe the guy made it through the hiring process. How'd that happen?

Yes, it absolutely true that there other jobs than being teachers. More and more employers are litigation-averse, however, so the fields of "respectable" employment narrow every year.

Which brings me to my first earlier point. At what point are people who have done something bad forever condemned for that bad thing?

Which leads to my second point. When compiling a list of bad things to exclude folks from being a public school teacher, why did Pogo equate porn actor or drug addict with terrorist?

Simply saying that they are all things we wouldn't want teachers to have in their past is an attempt to blur the thought process I'm criticizing; one which picks "terrorist" as something that would naturally be included on a list with "porn star."

I'm not defending porn stars or terrorists. I'm interested in the thought process that equates them because it is the same thought process that apparently leaves no room for redemption of others.

"Non-compliance with the school's code of ethics" sounds a lot like code for "we really want to get rid of him." If he had some specific infraction you can bet someone would have leaked it to the Daily News.

Tim said... Just another reason for Libertarians to build that floating libertarian utopia out at sea - porn actors can moonlight as teachers, or vice versa - I mean, it's nobody's business which one is the real job and which is the part time one, right?

There is so much stupid and ignorance in this short paragraph it's hard to quantify.

A classic no-nothing anti-libertarian comment. Really, if you want to be anti-libertarian, up your game a little.

They are teaching analingus to eighth graders in my school district. No seriously, "It works for both sexes." Sounds like this guy would be a star. We have a program in my state to bring in new teachers with real world experience in areas. why limit this to engineers and scientists?

I almost worked in Florida as a teacher. Subbed and was ready to go, but I decided I really didn't like FL. The state.

One thing I'll tell you, their research is *very* thorough. They found an arrest I had as a kid because I was picked up with a bunch and then released and everything dropped because I wasn't involved in the original charge.

I've worked Fed, State, County, City, Military and other governmental contracts and not one background check unearthed that.

FL FOUND it. I was just 18 at the time and everything was dropped and it was in a friggin' podunk town in KS.

FL FOUND it and questioned me. My account squared and they dropped it.

FL is strict. You lose your job if you have three DUIs or get one out of state and don't report it.

I do sometimes watch straight porn though. But it has to be amateurs, not "stars" and it has to be grainy footage.

My favorite part of watching porn is if there is a comment section. The comments are hilarious. Everyone is a critic and they are fucking serious.

I need something authentic and real in porn.

Studio porn is too stylized and boring. I always think of Boogie Nights. The "directing" aspect of porn bothers me. All I can think of when watching it is someone behind the camera shouting commands which I find to be a turnoff. I want spontaneous.

Someone filming themselves in their bedroom is much more interesting.

Did this guy fly around the world filming porn? He seems to particularly like Cuba.

It's very hard to separate your professional lives in the age of google. If he's been hired after full disclosure of his past, I'm not sure how they can fire him.

This is an interesting discussion timing-wise, as my son registered at HS on Monday, and he got some god-awful non-pornstar-past teachers (that we are agitating to change now). If the past is not an issue in the classroom -- that's a big If -- I would retain a good teacher. Was this teacher's past/present effecting his classroom?

How 'bout we get rid of all the bad teachers. Then we can start deciding how many of the good ones we should fire because of their past careers, what they say about same sex marriage on the internet, etc.

I didn't even realize there was such, but one of the best up and coming young comedians today, Hannibal Burres does a long bit about youporn.com and it's comments section. In particular, interracial videos and the racism in the comments section. He riffs about horniness overcoming racism and the entire bit is hysterical.

Last school year my son's high school jazz teacher was forced to resign after porn was found on his district-issued laptop. A student opened his laptop and rifled through it while he was out of the room, and saw the photos. He went home and told his mom who triggered an investigation by the school district.

The music teacher was excellent; just before this incident one of his jazz bands won the competition as the best in state; they performed at Monoma Terrace during Wisconsin Music Educators Conference and held master classes at some Madison high schools.

In the last few years three of his jazz students have gone on to Berklee and on to the Julliard School Yet despite all that he was forced out for pictures of adults on his computer.

PP said: Are there any legal professions that ya'll beleive should disqualify someone, for life, from teaching? That's all I'm asking..."

I did address this earlier (I suggested the Jackass guys), I'll add that I would disqualify most anyone who'd appeared on a reality show (the conflict-driven kinds, not the fluffy/documentary/competition ones), hookers, strippers, members of horrible (but legal) organizations (i.e. KKK, Phelps' church, NAMBLA), and people who had been outspoken proponents of illegal behavior, such as drug advocates.

These would count even if the person had renounced the prior behavior. It's about whether they can be an effective teacher while the kids know about their past (which they will know). Sometimes its not even fair (I, for example, am sympathetic to drug legalization, but I still wouldn't want my kids to have a teacher who had, say, videos on the net which the kids could and would look up, proclaiming the benefits of pot. Most kids are too immature to sort out the nuances there. Heck, most adults are, too.)

Pogo's revised list is mostly focused on the sex industry...with a medical marijuana dispenser (How about the guy who dispenses Viagra, you REALLY want that kind of person teaching your kids?!) & Congressman thrown in for laughs.

Many of the soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghan have had to actually kill children while in the course of their duty. Should a school-board deny them employment based on that?

"... In the last few years three of his jazz students have gone on to Berklee and on to the Julliard School Yet despite all that he was forced out for pictures of adults on his computer..."

Is it that hard to find qualified teachers who can display a shred of good judgment?

He put porn on his work issued laptop and then left it unattended and openly accessible. In many companies, just the latter two security lapses sooner would be grounds for termination. Heck, what private student info could that kid have accessed?

Letting him go seems reasonable considering his lack of good judgment.

Most large companies use outside companies to conduct background checks. The candidate fills out a form and the background check verifies information they give you. They generally don't seek out any additional information. They want to know if you graduated from college, are not a criminal, and have a solid work history.

I never worked for a company that googles someone before hiring them.

The Recruiter may google them just to see if they can find out anything about the person but this is generally not a policy of a company.

I have only worked in large, fab., multi-layered PRIVATE, yet publicly traded companies.

I have no idea what PUBLIC/Commie/Schools require from Background Checks.

Do you think Obama would have sent his kids to the Sidwell Friends School if they had ex-porn actors in their faculty? Do you think Sidwell Friends School would ever hire an ex-porn actor? More liberal do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.

As an academic thought exercise, this is fun. In the real world it has no legs.

>>Is it that hard to find qualified teachers who can display a shred of good judgment?<<

Except that he was replaced by a young woman who graduated from Wisconsin last year. I was more concerned about her fraternizing with students not much younger than her than anything a 55 year old guy could have done.

Are you saying that no children are being killed in those war zones? Or are you suggesting that the kids are getting shot because it is something the troops simply want to do, rather than have to do? Or are you just trying to take a cheap personal shot without really giving any thought to what was actually said?

I was more concerned about her fraternizing with students not much younger than her than anything a 55 year old guy could have done.

That's a heaping helping of cart before the horse, isn't it? Sprinkled with your own hangups? What about being male and 55 makes one more responsible or have better judgement. On the one hand, we have a young, female teacher who's basically an unknown. But, as far as your story relates, she hasn't been caught with porn on a school-issued laptop yet.

Unconscionable that the student was not punished to the largest extent possible. A message to other students that invasions of privacy are okeydokey.

"Yet despite all that he was forced out for pictures of adults on his computer."

I've worked that industry. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that said laptop was provided by the school system. If I'm wrong there, I'd bet he had hooked into the school's wifi more than once. That meant he exposed school resources, as porn is the primary vector for malicious code along with dumbasses clicking emails. That's why those rules occurred; cost, not the kids.

I dealt with porn problems with tech guys for years before schools had those resources.

"o Teachers use public schools as platforms for political indoctrination

"o Teachers are overcompensated

"o Teachers receive overly generous benefits"

Who says teachers use public schools as platforms for poltitical indoctrination? How do you know? Are such incidents--if any--widespread or anomalous? Do you have documentation or merely anecdotal hearsay? Or just speculation?

As to whether teachers are "overcompensated" or receive "overly generous benefits," who are you to say? Is this nationwide or just in certain states? Again, how do you know and by what standard are you gauging what levels of compensation and benefits are "overly generous" or "just right?"

Especially part time jobs or Porn Star jobs. Or a job that they had 20 or 50 years ago.

They just leave it off, so there is nothing to verify.

Driving Records will be verified if you need to drive in your job. You can have a few speeding tickets and perhaps one DWI and still get hired-at least a the companies I worked for. But the DWI should of been something many years ago, not last week. Driving Records are cleaned after 7 years.

If they are a recent college grad and did something stupid and were arrested they may be cut some slack. Although, I don't usually work with those employees because they are too junior and too below on the Corp. Org. Chart. I would rather not have any interaction with them. I prefer Senior Management or Executive interaction.

Some companies would not give a shit about his porn star status. He needs to find that company. It would be a better fit.

My perspective is as a former member of two different branches of the US Military. (11-Bravo and a Squid)

American Soldiers and certainly not Many American Soldiers, do not purposely or accidentally kill children.

Not according to the briefings at least two units were given when getting ready to roll with a convoy. I heard from two different grunts that they were told to run over, rather than stopping the vehicles, if anyone was in the road. When asked if that included children, the answer was "of course".

I ain't saying combat is pretty, and I ain't holding judgement against those men&women...rather, I'm asking if being a former solider in a combat zone would be enough to disqualify someone from teaching in a classroom.

They're my kids. That's of course number one. I love them and want for their safety and well-being. And you nor anyone else can tell me that this desire is wrong or bad.

This means I want to ensure the best I can for their education. If my selections are forcefully restricted by say, the government, then I certainly have a right to poke my nose in and stir things up for the first reason.

This includes who they select to spend eight hours a day with my child.

>>That's a heaping helping of cart before the horse, isn't it? Sprinkled with your own hangups? What about being male and 55 makes one more responsible or have better judgement. On the one hand, we have a young, female teacher who's basically an unknown. But, as far as your story relates, she hasn't been caught with porn on a school-issued laptop yet.<<

You know I might have been tempted to take you seriously until you declared "I tend to take the view that character flaws are a lot like icebergs. What you can see is probably only about 10% of the underlying hidden problems. "

Arguably we all have that "character flaw" since practically all of us have been exposed to porn, or actively sought it out, at some time.

I searched the young woman's name online and noticed she was heavily involved in activist circles at Madison while a student there. As far as I am concerned that's more offensive than what the guy did.

@Oligonicella. You're right; and I've had to let people go for violating Internet policy so I'm aware of the issues. But in the particular example I cited it seems a high price to pay (a 30 plus year career gone, revocation of license, etc). Perhaps there were other things I don't know about.

Arguably we all have that "character flaw" since practically all of us have been exposed to porn, or actively sought it out, at some time.

You're not getting the point then. Being exposed to porn is not the problem. Seeking it out is not the problem. Making the conscious decision to download it and put it on your school-provided laptop is a huge lapse in judgement. In the context of that, we see a serious character flaw (lack of good judgement) which is probably riding on top of a nice jumble of unseen problems.

Why is Anthony Weiner out of a job? It was Weiner's own party-led by Barry and Pelosi-that ushered his departure. What exactly was his fireable offense? There were no charges filed. And what standards were Democrats applying within their own party?

Pelosi and Barry cited him as a 'distraction' who 'wouldn't be able to do his job going forward'. Is there a parallel here?

ALTHOUSE: He was not a porn star "in the past." He was working as a porn star CONCURRENTLY, while he was teaching. He was also having live sex shows on webcam sites, tweeting about his productions, blogging photos from the set, releasing DVDs, uploading YouTube clips, etc.

I hate how the story has become "former" porn star (just because he said he was!) when this idiot NEVER left the industry and thought he could simply have both jobs at the same time. He told the Miami New Times (which first reported this story) that he had "dumped" his porn career, but they didn't even bother to check.

Link that documents how insane this guy is (ads on site NSFW): http://thesword.com/collin-oneal-loses-substitute-teacher-job-due-to-porn-present-not-porn-past.html

Women have been fired for this, so equality demands it.Beyond that, students need to respect their teachers. Being in porn is a disreputable activity. Want to be respected? Then don't do disreputable things.

Teachers are afraid of being found out smoking pot not because it is immoral, but because it is illegal.

The teacher with porn on his laptop should have been fired because the laptop is the property of the school system.

The student who went into the laptop should have been disciplined as well, for reasons mentioned by others.

I have no information whether Loftis has been redeemed or has claimed to have been, and his redemption status isn't germane to my overall comments posted previously.

I'd be curious to know where this school district ranks in objective measures of student achievement vs. less-"moral" school districts, after controlling for the usual statistical demographic categories, and if the hiring policy in this district leads to statistically-significant improvements in those measures of student achievement.

Or if it is merely a means of providing legal liability risk management, which is most often the case with such hiring policies.

As regards parents' feelings: if you truly feel that committed to the best environment for your kid, home-school. Give up some material luxury for the sake of your kids rather than try to run off otherwise competent teachers because they have legal, though admittedly "icky," activity in their previous professional career.

At what point are people excluded from society due to previous bad behavior? This is the essence of what I believe Althouse was asking in the original post. Is redemption never possible for certain activities, even if those activities are legal?

Why is porn actor or drug addict considered equivalent to terrorist by some, Pogo in particular? Is being paid to perform sex on video the dividing line and everything beyond that is the same as mass-murder, planting bombs, flying planes into sky-scrapers?

Loftis may well be an opportunistic, attention-seeking, douche-bag. Certainly sees he is. Again, appeal to authority, or lack of authority in his case, doesn't answer the questions above.

1) "At what point are people excluded from society due to previous bad behavior?"Not excluded from society, excluded from mentoring the young as school teachers.

"Why is porn actor or drug addict considered equivalent to terrorist by some, Pogo in particular?"They suggest poor judgement. Demonstrating good judgement would be never seeking to become a mentor for the young as school teachers.

The very fact of asking to teach suggests they are still dangerous morons controlled by their id or ego or libido.

I agree on the question of redemption being questionable when one is still engaged in the sinful activity. Go forth and sin no more was what the Lord said, wasn't it?

The "sin no more part" is the hard part of living. One of the reasons I'm grateful to be a Roman Catholic is the recognition through the Sacrament of Reconciliation that "sinning no more" is a constant challenge that needs reaffirmation through the faith community.

Anyway, I'd still like to see my earlier questions addressed directly in the abstract case, as I intended them. Loftis was the means to open Althouse's discussion, not the whole and entire point of the discussion.

...and how soon will it be before a community (I'm looking at YOU, SanFran) decides that tobacco use is an immoral choice for an adult to make, and anybody who ever smoked should not be allowed to teach the children?

Filing bankruptcy or getting divorced are also signs of poor judgment. Should bankrupts or divorcees be dismissed from teaching, as well?

Or is it the sex piece of the equation that is the core issue? Or are you assuming that anyone engaging in non-standard sex with other adults would necessarily engage in sex with minors?

There are 2 issues here.

1. The first seems important, but we dont have the facts. Was he truthful in his application? If not, that goes to an underlying issue that I think generally rules in favor of the employers. Lying on applications for employment is a firing offense.

He can redeem himself all he wants. Just not as a schoolteacher. If the guy had any sense, he'd realize that too. It is instructive that upon leaving the teaching gig he went back to porn.

Suppose he just did porn in the summer, when school is not in session. That's ok, right?

Most parents are going to have misgivings about this. Those misgivings are not unreasonable, and porn acting is not a constitutionally protected status (yet.) The parents' concerns should predominate here.

"Putting two things in the same category does not mean you consider them equivalent. It means they both happen to share the defining traits of that category, however they may differ in other traits."

Re-read that and then tell me that I'm the one "confused."

Generally, things that share "defining traits of [a] category" would be considered to be equivalents, at least in the context of the category being discussed.

My question to Pogo was why he considered terrorists and porn actors to share defining class traits. He responded with the bit about "poor judgment." Which I asked about further.

No one has yet explained why, when putting together a list of disqualifying traits for school teachers, "terrorist" would even occur to anybody, except as an instance of humorous hyperbole. If that was the case when Pogo included terrorist, he hasn't said so.

Other responses alleging lack of understanding on my part essentially center on "porn is icky," but don't address how the icky standard should be more broadly applied to other cases.

There's little difference between a paid porn star and a prostitute. I believe it's a matter yet to be adjudicatedIt was in California.It is no prostituion since you dont pay to have sex with the person paying but with another person while watching. I tought that the first action is proxenetism and the second a voyeur but the Calfornia court ruled that

The Drill SGT has hit upon the crux of the entire discussion. Yes, screening for employment entails risk evaluation for the employer.

Differing levels of tolerance for past activities apply for different job categories.

So, back to Althouse's original question. We've concluded that many folks would not want a former porn actor getting a job as a school teacher.

The question is why? Do you think people who engaged in sex for money in the past are poor role models? Are teachers supposed to be role models or are they supposed to teach math and history and science?

Why is non-mainstream adult sexual behavior disqualifying and not smoking, or being bankrupt, or liking NASCAR?

Do you think people who engage in sex for money are necessarily pedophiles? On the basis of what?

Alternatives exclude. If you choose to be a porn star, you choose not to be a teacher, or the spouse of a member of the clergy, or the president of the PTA. You can drink and you can drive, but it is out of bounds to do both.....Like many here, I have wrestled with the idea of becoming a porn star. An easy way to make a few bucks, and God only knows the fortune I could have made in gay porn. But I chose a more arduous and more moral way of earning my bread. That's what we want to encourage in kids. We don't want to legitimize the porn industry as a vald career choice.

If I was of the beleif that part of being a homosexual meant that one was also sexually attracted to kids, then I'd totally agree with your opinion on this issue. While I don't agree with the basic premise, I appreciate being able to better understand your viewpoint.

As to being in porn showing, by definition, poor judgment? I generally agree with that for the vast majority of performers in that industry.

There are those in the industry who have made vast amounts of money when no other line of work was available, though. Depending on how we define "poor judgment," it might be said that they made a good decision, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Now that we've clarified the "poor judgment" standard, what other examples of prior poor judgment exclude someone from being a school teacher, or is non-mainstream sexual behavior the only, or principle one?

Re: Ayers. Obviously, being a former terrorist is not disqualifying to be a college professor. But being a porn actor is for being a grade school teacher.

Ponder that for a while.

No need to ponder. The fact that the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education thinks that being a terrorist is not disqualifying doesn't mean that sensible, intelligent people agree with that assinine judgment.

Seriously, you're going to put porn star in the same category as terrorist or child murderer?

At most you can say it's a disreputable profession, and that may be a colorable argument against later employment as a teacher, but just say that straight up. No need to bring eye-rollingly bad analogies--the dude ain't Hitler.

Now that we've clarified the "poor judgment" standard, what other examples of prior poor judgment exclude someone from being a school teacher, or is non-mainstream sexual behavior the only, or principle one?

Apparently -- despite your repeated comments on it -- you missed the fact that Pogo already proposed his list:

I'm not saying I agree with that list; but for you to claim that "...non-mainstream sexual behavior [is] the only, or principle [example]..." being cited is a flat-out lie. You made a huge stink about terrorist being on that list, and now you pretend the list had only one item in it.

Personally, I would exclude former cokehead from the list. While successful drug rehab is less frequent than I would like, I've known people who turned their lives around from drugs and are successful professionals.

I've also seen religious revivals where a former prostitute or former porn star tells the story of their redemption, and the church then embraces them as a witness for their faith. So I might exclude them, too. If redemption is good enough for the church, it's good enough for the school.

But you want some serious bad judgment? If the comments above are true (I'm not interested in the sordid research it would take to verify them) and he's not "former" at all... Or if he deliberately hid information he was required to disclose as a condition of employment (and assuming that requirement was legal in that jurisdiction)... Then those are poor judgment, poor enough to disqualify him.

"So it IS a cultural construct, and not an objective, rational standard? Fair enough."What makes you believe that cultural constructs are not objective, rational standards?

"Personally, I would exclude former cokehead from the list."I probably would, too. But erring on the side of caution as to degree of reform is important, as the porn star case here clearly demonstrates.

I just think including those who have actually harmed others, especially extreme harm like terrorism, in a list with those who have mainly harmed themselves was curious.

As regards KKK membership, apparently that is not disqualifying for the US Senate from WV. Nor is "cokehead" disqualifying for president of the USA, because the current occupant, as well as the two previous, have admitted cocaine use at one time or another in their lives.

Whether you would want any of them to be "role models" or teach your children? YMMV.

That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. I'm sorry that you got confused. What I wanted was to learn more about why you..and others...feel as you do about this.

I just find it kinda interesting how squeamish some folks get about s-e-x. Most of the teachers (even the single ones) are making whoopee, and there ain't much outcry about that...as long as it is consenting adults, of course. But videorecord those consenting adults and let other consenting adults watch it and suddenly it is as big of a deal as being a terrorist or molesting&killing a kid.

What makes the whole thing really interesting is that ya can't really explain why you feel this way...rather, you just know you do and anyone who disagrees with ya is showing "poor judgement."

I am being sincere..for real..when I say that I thank everyone for sharing their point of view. Threads like this one are, to me, what makes the 'net a wonderful place.

trumpetdaddy said... Are teachers supposed to be role models or are they supposed to teach math and history and science?

rephrasing:

teachers ARE role models, good or bad, whether we like it or not for their charges.

This district and/or its parents has made the normative decision that porn stars and/or liars are bad role models. that may be unfair to some, but it's a reasonable decision based on shared community values

Pogo...I love you. But you want to take the civil law as your basis for punishing criminals and mixing it with God's Torah that executes criminals so it never has to deal with this problem of recidivism.

And the Christian witness is to personal forgiveness to the same degree that we want God to forgive us. I hope God is not weighing my past life against me because he forgot the New Covenant part.

The Catholics know why confession is a necessary part of a survivable life. But the Reformed church wants to use belief in perfect doctrine as their basic priest free sacrament, but perfection ends up excluding most people most of the time.

Now where do we draw the line? You have to deal with Rom 8:1 and Gal. 5:1 or twist your doctrine into a pretzel anyway.

Well, we're talking about public schools. Government has a near-monopoly on taxpayer-funded K-12 education, and that makes a big difference in weighing who should have the trump card.

If parents had real choices then it would be different. If parents had real choices then socially conservative parents could choose to send their children to schools that did not violate their beliefs, and more permissive parents could choose schools that employ [ex-?] porn stars.

But, they don't. And therefore he should find another job. Such as (if he wants to teach chidlren) teaching at a private school. If he can find one that will hire him.

And, as a general principle, the needs of students- mostly as expressed by the students' parents- should always trump what teachers want. Because the school exists to serve the needs of students, not to serve the needs of teachers.

"ya can't really explain why you feel this way...rather, you just know you do and anyone who disagrees with ya is showing "poor judgement.""Not true.Human experience cruelly teaches that the failure to learn from experience is punished severely.

Those lessons, learned over millenia, are bundled nicely into tradition and religion.

What I have said is completely uncontroversial in all areas of the US save those dominated by the left.

They're considered no-brainers, they're so easy to decide. For the left, they require much useless cogitation, because, like purplepenguin, they have nothing on which to base a decision, having decided that tradition and religion are useless.

My 6th grade teacher was a playboy centerfold. Her past was behind her, but it still informed her persona. She was a walking playboy Miss Havisham - wore clothes fully 15-20 years out of date from her "Glory Years", full porn star cleavage showing, and had the little boys give her shoulder massages as a "reward".

We also had a male teacher with a huge long dick who wore no underwear - just let it hang down his jean leg. Our drama teacher was flaming as well.

Should she have been fired? I dunno. Almost all junior high teachers are or were freakish in one way or another. You'd have to fire them all except the favorites.

You're so sensitive at that age and adults are so sad and generally creepy. You've got nothing to do but look at them for an hour a day. And judge them. Hah. Is being creepy and sad around the Little Dears a fireable offense?

all this 'moralizing' about porn is nonsense. visual depictions of sex have been around since cave drawings and can, more recently, be largely credited for the growth of the video tape/dvd markets and the popularizing of the internet.funny how porn can simultaneously be a multi-billion dollar industry and the object of so much (public) scorn. put down the torches and pitchforks, zip up your pants, and just ask whether or not this past (and/or present) porn actor is a good teacher? that is, do his students learn from him? that's all that matters. the only teacher who should be required to be a 'saint' is maybe a nun...and i'll wager that even a few of them have a history that would shock some folks of delicate sensibility.

Oh sure, what is in the past is in the past. Right? And an award winner too. I'll never understand awarding porn actors some sort of accolade for their on camera deviancy. Oh look, Harriet, he's porking him sideways. Well, by cracky, give that shit-pusher an award.