The Future of Loyalism session at the Political Studies Association conference started with two academics – Jim McAuley and Graham Spencer – introducing the Political Studies Association delegates to loyalism, loyalist themes and transformation efforts so far. Rev Chris Hudson – who acted as a conduit between the Irish Government and the UVF – spoke about his journey. [Click on their names to hear their 10 minute introductions.]

Finally, Jackie McDonald – introduced as a former UDA prisoner – spoke about his own experience of loyalism. He talked about experiences on his estate before the UDA was formed (when white collar workers met and sought to limit any increase in Catholic occupancy of their area), gave his view on Gary McMichael’s strategy and drugs entering the organisation.

(It was hard at times while listening not to sceptically wonder how far his revisionist dial was cranked up and contemplate which inconvenient facts were being overlooked or vastly simplified.)

In the Q&A session the opening remarks, Jackie McDonald was asked about the Orange Order. You can hear his five minute reply. But in the second half he questioned aspects of the Orange Order Belfast District’s plans for a ‘Covenant parade’ in May.

On the 19th of May – I’m not sure if everybody would be aware – the Grand Lodge is going to have (to celebrate the centenary of the Covenant which is going to be on the 28th or 29th of September) but they’re making that their baby, their thing, so the Belfast District are having one [a parade] on the 19th of May which is going to go to Ormeau Park.

But they’re allowing loyalism to join in. There could be 35-55,000 people walking. There will be thousands of people lining the route. There will be thousands of people in Ormeau Park to welcome them there.

The problem we have is … the Orange and the bands will take the first part of the parade, and then it will be the UVF in the Somme gear – the Somme associations and what they’re telling us is they’ll have the uniforms, they’ll have the antique motors with the machine guns on them and all the paramilitary flags – and the UDA will be suited and booted, the Ulster Defence Union will be wearing their green blazers and what have you.

If you’re a nationalist – and this parade passes parts of Short Strand or wherever – how are you going to feel? Are you going to feel threatened? Is that going to be a positive thing or a negative thing? And I’d very wary that as part of the peace process we should all be moving forward and we should be taking into consideration how the nationalists feel. But the Orange Order are saying “that’s not our problem, that’s the police problem”. People belonging to us have asked them what happens if the dissidents attack the parade? “That’s not our problem. That’s the problem for the police.” What happens if some of the local blue bag brigade joins in and causes problems? “Oh that’s not our problem. That’s the PSNI problem.”

But it’s not. It’s their problem. It’s their parade and they’re responsible for the behaviour of the people in it.

He finished the answer with the statement:

I support the Orange, but I don’t want anything to do with them if you know what I mean.

It’s positive that Jackie is publicly thinking first through the eyes of others. It puts his rhetoric in the same league as Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness who frequently now make statements that are deliberately inclusive and question their own community’s reaction to their neighbours. While the relationship between Jackie, the UDA and the Orange Order is no doubt much more complicated and baggage-laden than he expressed yesterday, his observations do raise questions about the institution’s plans to commemorate the signing of the Ulster Covenant.

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About Alan Meban (Alan in Belfast)

Alan Meban. Normally to be found blogging over at Alan in Belfast where you'll find an irregular set of postings, weaving an intricate pattern around a diverse set of subjects. Comment on cinema, books, technology and the occasional rant about life. On Slugger, the posts will mainly be about political events and processes. Tweets as @alaninbelfast.

This from McDonald is encouraging at least. I think we’d wait a very long time before hearing these concerns expressed by Robinson as he still supports the coattrailing of orangemen through the contentious areas in spite of his claims to be reaching out. It’s all empty gestures with Robbo.

keano10

This sort of provaction has been going for years as Orange Pardades have passed Short Strand so it’s nothing new to be honest.

McDonald’s words are encoraging but nobody is going to listen to him. They simply enjoy it too much. They enjoy the provocation. Full stop.

Anyone who has ever stood outside my local church, St Matthews Chapel, as they deliberately halt their Orange parade, play the Sash and dance all over the roads, will be aware of this. (Often is spite of Parades Commision Rulings not to do so).

Institutionalised Unionism in the form of The Orange Order specifically was always going to be the hardest and most difficult starnd to change. Simply because they dont want to…

keano10

** strand to change ***

andnowwhat

Maj, you’re fotgetting that Jackie has a new Irish president to break in. I’m Joking BTW.

Fair play to Jackie because it won’t be the first minister, the one who is doing all the supposed taig love, who is going to say to the Orange, now lads.

Essentially there is a choice between Historical Accuracy and the Common Good (Community Cohesion). The nature of the upcoming commemorations is that they appeal to one side or the other. But not both.
In a very real sense, the re-enactment (and interestingly re-enacting is a comparatively new feature) of events which were controversial, possibly provocative and possibly threatening cannot be depicted without re-enacting controversy, provocation and even threat.

In that sense it is historically accurate. The alternative, is a semi-official sanitised version, all “outreach” and “inclusive” but hardly accurate.
Re-enactment…..or as some would have it “dressing up” is an interesting comparatively new development (not counting the Sham Fight people). Whether it is Sealed Knot Cavaliers and Roundheads, Scottish Highlanders at Culloden or the (claimed) one million Americans who spend their summer weekends “in civil war camp” or the Waffen SS guys………I dont think it is possible to dress up and carry props without in some way taking on the belief systems of those who originally wore the uniforms and carried the props.
Re-enactment …..and surely it will give licence for more dressing up and prop carrying at Easter 2016….is therefore more likely that people will be strengthened in their different beliefs rather than break them down. And it wont be possible to detach the events from the 1960s and early 1970s from these events.
It will therefore turn out to be a nightmare for those who talk of “shared history”.
Reporting the Titanic 2012 thing (and I have issues with that) was comparatively easy. It is arguably the “softest” centenary.
But the reporting of the Covenant events will be interesting.

Silly of me, Kal to forget that. By the way what happened to the wall to wall coverage on BBC and utv of the titanic exploitation? the backlash has started I think. Back on topic, the election threat over the prison officer’s insignia reveals the freudian slip by Robinson. The mask was soon back in place.

Drumlins Rock

Alan, I and hundreds of others have paraded through Belfast and many other towns in a reproduction military uniform, with reproduction weapons, both handheld and mounted, marching in ranks and taking instruction from a commanding officer, however all of which were glorified fancy dress based on the late 17th C, so I doubt any offense was ever caused. If sometihng similar is the intentions on the 19th of May, I will probably attend and take part, but I want no part if it is a thinly disguised glorification of the so-called loyalist paramilataries, and would hope any decent Orangeman would feel the same.

FJH. Clearly for the unionist establishment and media here the hardest 1912 centenary to mention is the forced eviction of thousands of catholics from the shipyard which is now being so lovingly embraced in prinrt and broadcast. That’s one exodus gregory won’t want to hear about as he’s very selective about this.

Blue Hammer

Celebration of the UVF is fine. So long as the UVF in question is the original version from 1913-16. That bunch of yahoos who missappropriated that honourable name and emblems in 1966 to date are worthy of nothing more than scorn and a cell in gaol.

I know little of this planned event, but it is clearly indefensible to march a group of paramilitaries past the scene of some of their worst crimes.

salgado

Blue Hammer – even a commemoration of the original UVF could be pretty intimidating. I don’t think people in Short Strand will really care which era is marching past, either way it’s pretty tactless.

DC

Can they not organise these events for Carrick instead of divided parts of Belfast?

Blue Hammer

Salgado

I take that point. I have no interest in any marching, but just thought that a historically themed parade of guys in WW1 gear on antique vehicles is surely less incendiary than one with participants who tended to operate in jeans, leathers jackets and balaclavas.

Mike the First

Sickening and disgraceful if the modern day UVF and UDA terrorists (even in their “UDU” incarnation) are being included in this.

salgado

True, it should be less incendiary, but commemorating armed loyalist groups (even antiquated ones) near areas that have been terrorized by their descendants (whether the name is misappropriated or not) is still tactless.

Tochais Síoraí

Maybe the same characters can continue their commemorations and do a recreation of the Battle of the Somme for us (with live ammo) in 2016.

Blue Hammer

Tochais

Meanwhile we can round up a few republican leaders from a Post Office ( we can schedule it for giro day!) and execute them by firing squad. All in the interests of mutual respect for commemorations and re-enactments of 1916 events of course.

cars1912

Well he got part of it right but a good bit of it wrong. Never let the truth get in the way of half truths. Glad to see that you all have accepted what he has said as the truth. There will be no guns for starters but what the hell if Jackie says there will be who am I to challenge him.

Yes it will walk up the Newtownards Road which the last time I looked was a road populated by Unionsts. Sure Short Strand will hear and if they go out of their way see the parade.

As for the numbers quoted by Jackie I suppose we will have to take them as gospel to. Dream on.

CoisteBodhar

So they’ll be going up the Ormeau Past the bookies or making some kind of detour?

Ardmajel55,
As one of the nine galleries in the Titanic Exhibition Centre allows visitors to experience life as a shipyard worker in early 20th century Belfast, I would assume that for historical accuracy there is some interactive “Belfast Shipyard Confetti” to allow Catholic visitors to get the fully authentic experience.
But as other contributors have stated there is a backlash against the “soft” approach taken by the media when dealing with people from the Titanic Experience, Arlene Foster, City Council, Norn Iron Tourism.

I went along to the site on Saturday and franly the young folks from the Free Presbyterian Church were the only people who really “got” the Titanic.
I have seen (elsewhere in Belfast) a souvenir of a little statuette…..a child in dressing gown and life jacket clutching a teddy bear and suitcase which isI think tacky.
Only a few years ago I pointed out to an incredulous manager at the Welcome Centre that the Titanic ashtrays were inscribed “BARLAND” rather than “Harland”.

There is actually a genuine debate to be had as to whether the media should be part of the “official” project of the Decade or whether it should be detached.
Does the media have a “duty” to consider the bigger picture of community cohesion or be detached and impartial? My impression from last weekend that the media was just a little too enthused.
In cases of civil unrest, war (including the Troubles themselves) this was an issue between government and (particuarly public service) broadcasters.
In fairness, it is probably a grey area, in the case of a full scale war, the national media probably has a duty to be little more than an arm of government.
At a seminar in the Ulster Museum in March 2011, the Arts Community rejected they had to paint or write for the “public good”. It is basically dishonest.
But I cant see how that really fits into the upcoming Decade.
I just think each community should be “allowed” to get on with their own celebrations/commemorations.

andnowwhat

Why is the event in Ormeau Park, within the earshot of lower Oremau residents.

We all know the issue there with the bookies and marchers doing the finger taunt some years ago. Personally, I find that more offensive than the Short Strand issue.

Reader

ardmajel55: Clearly for the unionist establishment and media here the hardest 1912 centenary to mention is the forced eviction of thousands of catholics from the shipyard which is now being so lovingly embraced in prinrt and broadcast.
That would be 1920, I think. A busy year.

Reader. Ok, that’s corrected, thanks. I’d only recently discovered this story and thought I read it was 1912,
I believe there was a big riot in derry in july that year afortnight in fact after my late father was born. Serious period in history in ireland

FJH. The news editors at ormeau and havelock house lost ther run of themselves completely and only noel thompson made a valiant effort to balance things last fridday in what was otherwise a newsline edition which went completely ape. Their facebook page shows their irritation at the less than grateful public’s reaction. The gin and titonic promo showed the complete lack of commonsense or judgement by the organisers.

Drumlins Rock

for goodness sake, now its “within earshot”

MOPE MOPE MOPE MOPE MOPE

andnowwhat

Not really moping DR.

Don’t forget that it was Orangemen who put the final nail in the coffin of the Ormeau marches.

Now, that we protest they do at the bridge and the bi weekly one they do at Garvaghy, that’s some serious MOPE MOPE MOPE.

How many years have they been doing that crap for?

DC

Mind you, if the band plays this tune below there will be many a nationalist unsure of what to do:

FJH 1[.47] Sorry, I didn’t get much time earlier to go through all of what is a substantial post, FJH. I haven’t yet been to Belfast adn have only seen the outside on TV etc. The frontage which dwarfs the ground floor entrance is totally out of proprtion and looks a bit like an outsize wardrobe apparently about to take flight. There’s little dignity in that, frankly. Only slightly less ridiculous looking than the giant fake jelly on the truck reggie perrin was driving in the original series.

Comrade Stalin

If a former UDA prisoner thinks the thing is over the top then it is hard to dismiss all this as nationalist mopery.

Given that the Orange Order apparently still can’t demonstrate any of the responsibility associated with its role as a principal parade organizer, here’s hoping that the Parades Commission place heavy restrictions on any of this provocative nonsense.

andnowwhat

Comrade Stalin

Maybe Jackie has sussed the bleeding obvious; that such behaviour keeps the spirit of division alive. Suits me fine for my agenda.

lamhdearg2

Thou shall not march within earshot of a irish nat, this is the rule the fascists will push, i seen this coming, and have mentioned it before, expect resistance to this rule.

andnowwhat

Now, you know full well the issues with the Orange, the lower Ormeau, Orange men holding up fingers re. the amount of people shot in Graham’s bookies.

Before anyone comes off with the usual toss about it being bandsmen, there’s a nice clear photo of an orangeman in his collatrette doing the finger thing on the net. Actually, there’s about 5t sources for it

cars1912

Jackie McDonald does not speak for anyone other than himself in this tape. He is entitled to dislike the OO for whatever reason. I don’t care what he thinks or says.

The parade is not going up the Ormeau Road end of. The routes of the parade have been on the world wide web for some time if people tried to look for them. Deirdre Hargey take note.

Yes people on the Ormeau Road may hear bands but so what. There will be no guns, no paramilitary flags and there won’t be 50,000 in the parade. McDonald needs to listen to the loyalist community and what they are planning. If he did he wouldn’t talk bull.

The organisers have scheduled talks with the residents of SS. This has been planned for a while now. Not sure what the residents of the Lower Ormeau would want to talk about. Oh yes we can hear your dreadful music now clear off.

Mind you the organisers could have given you something to really gurn about and opted to walk along the Alberbridge Road. Guess what they won’t.

For the record the Council deem Ormeau Park as shared space. I guess that means we can use it to.

SF have been aware of the parade and that there are no feeder parades since the late Autumn.

carl marks

Can anyone answer these questions?
1/ will there be homage to the “old uvf.
2/ will the present day uvf and uda be marching in the parade.
3/will the parade be marching past a nationalist area.
If the answer to all these is no, then knock yourselves out boys.
If the answer to either 1&2 are yes then I would ask the PUL posters to remember the anger they felt when a group on nationalist youngsters were dressed up as provos in Crossmaglen and firmly condemn the march, this should happen no matter where the parade is being held, after all the kids in Crossmaglen where nowhere near a unionist or loyalist area and unionists were still offended.
Failure to come out against paramilitary involvement will once and for all expose the hypocrisy of unionism when they give off about nationalists and their support of terrorism.
IF 3 is right then proper consultation with the community in question is to be expected.

Mick Fealty

Hear what you sat Carl… But do expect that will take us through all commemorations in the next decade?

carl marks

No Mike i dont, each one will present its own problems.
each one will require its own solutions, thats if there are solutions.

carl marks

FJH may well be right, some things in this place cant be shared.

andnowwhat

Carl Marks

Wise up. Why wouldn’t nationalists not which to support the celebration of a document that swore signaotries to ” (use) all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland”

Can’t see a single thing for us nationalists to object to at all. Now, I’m off to stick a size 10 knitting needle in my fenian eye for God and Ulster

carl marks

andnowwhat
Im sorry could you tell me wtf you are talking about.

cars1912

1/ will there be homage to the “old uvf.- no
2/ will the present day uvf and uda be marching in the parade – as far as I know yes.
3/will the parade be marching past a nationalist area – its walking up the Newtownards Road and the residents are welcoming the parade. Short Strand is in the locality.

As already stated there are scheduled talks arranged with SS.

Period costume will be that of the Ulster Clubs of 1912. Same as the people we see at all the Titanic stuff. No guns.

I see no reason why the UDA and UVF cannot be involved. After all we have Provos running the country and many other aspects of our life and guess what I don’t complain.

carl marks

cars1912
I see no reason why the UDA and UVF cannot be involved. After all we have Provos running the country and many other aspects of our life and guess what I don’t complain.

You honestly don’t see a problem with terror groups parading and pretending to be some sort of heroes.
You honestly don’t see why nationalists (and a lot of unionists) will have a problem with this. You honestly don’t see the hypocrisy of complaining about nationalist links with the provos then marching with loyalist terror groups.
I think you got to the knitting needle before andnowwhat

Comrade Stalin

andnowwhat

Can’t see a single thing for us nationalists to object to at all. Now, I’m off to stick a size 10 knitting needle in my fenian eye for God and Ulster

I don’t see how we can sit here shortly after the Queen laid a wreath at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin and talk about how unreasonable it is for unionists to want to commemorate the convenant. Suddenly it’s nationalists who are yelling “no” down a megaphone.

To me, the convenant and the Irish war of independence are two sides of a rather dark and bloody coin, personally I’m not interested in either of them. But there are plenty of people who feel they are important, so provided the celebrations are lawful and respectable I can see no reasonable grounds for objection.

Back on the subject of Jackie McDonald’s comments here, having considered it a bit more I’m wondering if there is any kind of UVF/UDA rivalry going on here.

USA

What on earth are the Orange Order doing inviting the modern UDA and UVF to participate in one of their parades?

Harry Flashman

FJH

I think Kevin Myers debunked a lot of the nonsense about the shipyard and the Titanic in a recent article, pointing out that H&W’s owner was an avowed home ruler who shut the yard down in protest at attempts to intimidate Catholic workers.

Drumlins Rock

CS, It is difficult to take Jackie at face value considering his history.
USA, maybe the OO is trying to curtail the UVF & UDA organising their own parades? which wouln’t be good you will agree, lesser of two evils? just a guess.

Comrade Stalin

I think Kevin Myers debunked a lot of the nonsense about the shipyard

ROTFL

Harry Flashman

Sorry CS, I forgot the pavlovian reaction among some people to the name Kevin Myers. But my assertion remains, he did point out that H&W was not a unionist bastion in 1912, that’s a historical fact no matter how much the red mist descends at the mention of the man who states it.

Oh and the hull’s registration number didn’t reflect as “No Pope” [3909 ON] another cherished myth.

Comrade Stalin

Sorry CS, I forgot the pavlovian reaction among some people to the name Kevin Myers.

I’ve seen articles written by Myers that were factually incorrect. Not just slightly inaccurate, but completely wrong. He can’t be trusted as a source.

he did point out that H&W was not a unionist bastion in 1912, that’s a historical fact

I’d like to see exactly what the sources are for that “historical fact”. The rampant discrimination and inequality here didn’t happen overnight during December 1922.

Oh and the hull’s registration number didn’t reflect as “No Pope” [3909 ON] another cherished myth.

That particular myth is pretty easy to debunk by noting that there are plenty of clear photographs and drawings of the Titanic, and none of them show this fabled registration number anywhere.

Harry Flashman

” I’d like to see exactly what the sources are for that “historical fact”.”

“In fact, until the disastrous decision to give home rule to Northern Ireland, the workforce of the shipyard was pretty much divided on demographic lines. And far from the company being “unionist”, its chairman, William Pirrie, was a keen Home Ruler who acted as Winston Churchill’s host during a nationalist rally in Belfast; and for this, he was roundly hissed by unionists in the streets. Moreover, he shut the yard down when there was an attempt to eject Catholics, and warned it would remain closed until guarantees were given about the safety of the Catholic workforce. ”

But Kevin Myers said it so we must ignore it, isn’t that how it works?

carl marks

D.R.
I’m sorry that doesn’t do it for me. If what we have heard about this march is true, ( by the way I’m finding it hard to believe that the OO is this stupid) there is no excuse and to be honest the lesser of two evils thing sounds like clutching at straws to me.

Comrade Stalin

Harry,

As I said, I take all claims from Myers that are unsourced with a huge pinch of salt.

A suggestion that a lockout occurred at some point in 1912 does not, and cannot, debunk the documented reality that the shipyard in common with the rest of Belfast’s manufacturing industry didn’t employ Catholics almost as a rule. There were exceptions to that rule (Martin McGuinness commented that he had a relative in the shipyards), but they were just that – exceptions.

(and what became of that lockout – did it go ahead ? How long was production at the shipyard stopped for ? What guarantees were received in exchange for lifting the lockout and who underwrote them? Did the other directors at H&W agree to all of this ?)

This sort of revisionism is typical of Myers’ myopic contrarianism. Moreover, it seeks to deny the family history of many of us here. It was extremely difficult for Catholics to obtain employment here and this problem didn’t begin to be properly addressed until the late 1960s.

HF You forgot conveniently to say this was before Partition so youre using a pre partition situation to cover the rest of H&W’s’ tenure. nice work but it doesn’t cut it.

Harry Flashman

“HF You forgot conveniently to say this was before Partition so youre using a pre partition situation to cover the rest of H&W’s’ tenure. nice work but it doesn’t cut it.”

Cut what? I was referring to FJH’s assertion that in 1912 H&W was a loyalist bastion, I am pointing out that on the contrary the owner was a Home Ruler, the rest of your post is frankly unintelligible.

CS

Myers states that the ratio in 1912 was “demographic” by which I assume proportional to the local population, East Belfast would have been massively protestant at that time if I am not mistaken.

The worst anti-Catholic purges in H&W occurred from 1920 onwards when former workers returning from the War claimed that all their jobs had been taken by “disloyal” workers, ie Catholics.

Seems that H&W as an employer didn’t have a particular objection to hiring Catholics in large numbers, even if their staff did.

You’ll have to back up your previous assertion that Myers has made many completely false historical statements with examples if you want to get into a discussion on his factual reliability.

As I recall back about ten or fifteen years ago he admitted that one of his previous posts on the 1919-21 war was based on misinformation and he withdrew it, beyond that I’m sure you will come up with a host of inaccuracies.

Comrade Stalin

Myers states that the ratio in 1912 was “demographic”

Everything that Myers “states” is subject to suspicion. As I’ve said three times now.

by which I assume proportional to the local population, East Belfast would have been massively protestant at that time if I am not mistaken.

The demographics of the local population isn’t the issue. Places like Mackies and the Gallagher tobacco factory in N Belfast were situated in areas with a lot of Catholics nearby and yet they employed hardly any.

Seems that H&W as an employer didn’t have a particular objection to hiring Catholics in large numbers, even if their staff did.

Maybe, but I don’t see any evidence for this. Bearing in mind that the individual supposedly involved in the aforementioned lockout was one out of the three principals in the company.

You’ll have to back up your previous assertion that Myers has made many completely false historical statements with examples if you want to get into a discussion on his factual reliability.

I have to do no such thing. You can’t quote op-ed or opinion piece stuff as fact, without reference to the underlying sources.

between the bridges
Any comment to make about the UDA andUVF marching. or does that not matter.

between the bridges

carl i think the fact that the uda is not marching may have more to do with Brig jackie’s comments, which portray a somewhat differ event to the one which has the support of Belfast City Council, the Heritage Lottery Fund and the Community Relations Council…

carl marks

Now you say they aren’t marching but CARS1912 says they are. Jackie says they are. And you haven’t mentioned the UVF. So which is it if you have facts share them with us.

between the bridges

carl to the best of my limited knowledge neither the uda or the modern version of the uvf will be parading. the 1912 uvf will be commemorated/recreated, now i am sure we can debate the difference needlessly without agreement, but the fact is the 1912 uvf and the 36th ulster division have merged in PUL history/folklore, a fact that i am reminded of on my occasional attendance at my local cathedral.

tacapall

BTB so who will be recreating the old UVF, will it be the modern day UVF members or actual members of the Orange Order ?

between the bridges

T..i believe the organisers have encourage participants, where possible to parade in period costume…

tacapall

Participants ! So will they be Orange Order members or members of the public ?

carl marks

between the bridges.

This is very important; it will be the first of a lot of this sort of thing coming up and will set the trend.
Before i am misunderstood I don’t want 1916 to be turned into a paramilitary display, As to the old UVF being portrayed, I don’t like it but I see your point, but to march them past the Short Strand is insensitive to say the least as I’m sure you would find a old IRA display marching past the Shankill say.

Indeed you don’t, but if you refuse to do so it rather renders utterly irrelevant your claim;

“Everything that Myers “states” is subject to suspicion. As I’ve said three times now.”

If you three times impugn a writer’s integrity the onus is on you to back your claims up, if you can not or will not do so the rest of us can safely dismiss your thrice-made claims as so much hot air.

I suspect your original claim that you personally have on many occasions found inaccuracies in Myers work to be bunkum, if you like I will say that three times.

cars1912

Comrade Stalin in reply:

You honestly don’t see a problem with terror groups parading and pretending to be some sort of heroes.

I think they have been parading for years. Who says they are parading as heroes. Parading to remember our forefathers? Yes. As heroes? No. So what’s the problem now?

You honestly don’t see why nationalists (and a lot of unionists) will have a problem with this.

Of course I see that many people have a problem with this. Doesn’t mean to say it cannot happen. I assume that all shades of IRA have been parading over the last couple of days. Do the same rules apply to them?

You honestly don’t see the hypocrisy of complaining about nationalist links with the provos then marching with loyalist terror groups.

I’m not complaining.

Comrade Stalin

cars1912,

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It might be more obvious if you didn’t make assumptions about my underlying motivations (which are almost certainly incorrect).

hurdy gurdy man

Comrade Stalin (& cars1912)

Cars’ 6.15 is actually a response to Carl Marks’ 9.13 on the 6th April. He’s got the handles mixed up.

andnowwhat

I think it’s a measure of Myers to see the reaction on southern sites when he is quoted or linked. He, like Harris, is regarded as a complete joke.

Whilst fine trades suffer, the contraversialist seems to be a thriving business.

andnowwhat

I meant “contrarian”

Harry Flashman

“He, like Harris, is regarded as a complete joke.”

Odd then that the two of them are among the highest paid commentators in the Irish media.

It would be more accurate to say that Myers and Harris are hated by a certain narrow section of Irish society for their courage in showing up the fascists in the Provisional movement for what they are.

I can take a line through someone’s pavlovian reaction to Myers and Harris and can instantly judge the character of the critic and what his opinions will be about other issues.

Cars.
I apply the same rules to republican groups as I apply to loyalist groups.
I Have been informed by BTB on his post of 7 April 2012 at 10:54 pm
That the UVF and UDA are not going to march, I hope it is true ( he normally seems to be in the know about the OO) but answer me this if they do march what will be the order of march.
Could I suggest that they march in teams perhaps first the drug dealers then the pimps and bringing up the rear perhaps having a collection the lads running the protection racket.
Will the beast from the east take the salute, and wiil the Mount Vernon lads get a place of honour.

Comrade Stalin

Odd then that the two of them are among the highest paid commentators in the Irish media.

That tells us nothing about the quality or veracity of Myers output. Only what we already know, which is that controversy and hyperbole sells.

It would be more accurate to say that Myers and Harris are hated by a certain narrow section of Irish society for their courage in showing up the fascists in the Provisional movement for what they are.

No, it’s because Myers opinions are offensive to reasonable people. They are decisive, hateful, negative and insulting; they are the thoughts of someone who clearly has some sort of deep seated self-loathing going on.

The man is more than entitled to his opinions and the means by which to publish them, but this does not change the fact that they are opinions, and not fact.

Talking about fascism, that article that Myers did a few years ago about Africa and how aiding it would only increase the problems of AIDS etc is the sort of thing that our locally grown Nazi organizations would have circulated among their supporters at length.

PaddyReilly

The structure of Kevin Myers’ “debunking” is very curious.

He shows, or purports to show, that there was no discrimination against Catholics in the Shipyard in 1912. This is then taken as showing that stories told of a non-existent Catholic workforce there by Belfast Catholics of our acquaintance are “myths”. But one might legitimately ask, how many people that I or anyone else have spoken to, even decades ago, were talking about 1912?

Why not take the argument one stage further, and assert that since everyone in Ireland in 1500 A.D. was Catholic, there has therefore never been any discrimination against Catholics, ever?

impongo2

and republicans walking through various parts of belfast over easter warrants no comments from any of you
or is it the usual one sided rhetoric from the usual suspects

Harry Flashman

Given that FJH, Myers and I all specifically referred to 1912 and the building of the Titanic I’m not entirely clear what your point is Paddy.

Harry Flashman

“our locally grown Nazi organizations would have circulated among their supporters at length.”

Godwin strikes again, so saying that throwing eleventy gazillion, bazillion dollars of “aid” at Africa over the past half century might well have exacerbated rather than ameliorated the problems of that benighted continent makes one a Nazi now does it?

Sheesh, hysterical much?

Still haven’t pointed out the many factual errors that you have personally noticed in Myers’ writing I notice. I wonder if you were bluffing.

PaddyReilly

Kevin Myers wrote “Catholics cherish the myth that they weren’t allowed to work in the shipyards”.

To show, or in fact merely to assert that they were allowed to in 1912 has no bearing on this. The period complained of was not 1912, but sometime in the lifetime of the complainant. Many abuses were brought in after 1922 which would not have been tolerated before that. The Orange Order was banned for a while in the early 19th Century, as contrary to good order. The reason for these abuses was the special requirements of the Orange state, whose continuation required that there be no demographic change, at least not in the direction that favours Catholics.

Comrade opines that The rampant discrimination and inequality here didn’t happen overnight during December 1922. This I suppose is true, and the Pirrie story shows that there was already a movement afoot to eject Catholics, just that on this occasion it was not allowed to succeed.

Myers continues “And of course, there is the myth that the Titanic was unique, when she wasn’t.” As far as I know, the story of the Titanic is that it was a ship, reputed to be unsinkable, which sank. Lots of people drowned. There’s nothing about it being unique.

So Myers’ particular style consists in making things up, falsely attributing them to others, then refuting them and claiming that these are “myths” which he has “debunked”. Oh well, I suppose he has to write something.