I-912/Irons Vigil: Day 5

So here’s where it stands… Dave Irons record strongly suggests that he opposes Initiative 912 and strongly supports the state transportation package and its 9.5 cent gas tax increase over four years. Reliable sources tell me that Irons privately made clear his opposition to I-912, in earning the endorsement of the pro-business Alki Foundation. And the two people listening to the Mike Siegel Show Wednesday morning report that Irons stated he would vote against I-912.

So it seems pretty clear: Irons opposes I-912 and supports the gas tax. I guess I should end my vigil, right?

I’m not so sure.

While I appreciate the fact that Irons actually answered Siegel’s question — if in a tortured and round about way — as a candidate for King County Executive he needs to show leadership, and get out in front on an initiative that would have a hugely negative impact on the ability of our region to fix its looming transportation crisis. This is not just about the personal safety of the few hundred people who might be unfortunate enough to be driving on the AWV at the time it inevitably pancakes. This is about providing the necessary infrastructure to permit our region’s economy to grow and prosper.

And the thing is… Irons seems to understand this.

This is about leadership… leadership that Irons refuses to deliver on the most important issue facing voters this November. If I-912 is going to be defeated, prominent Republicans need to be as much a part of the coalition opposing it as they were a part of the coalition that passed the transportation package in the first place. It’s not enough for Irons to mumble to a handful of listeners that he’ll vote against I-912. He needs to start explaining to the public — including his own supporters — why I-912 is such a bad deal for King County… the county he says he wants to lead.

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Back to Alaskan Way Viaduct. Looks like there is one option that would only cost $100 to $200 million at most, and wouldn’t involve total disruption to traffic patterns for the next seven to nine years (or more).

Bruce Ramsey, Seattle Times editorial manager, admits this option is a reasonable possibility on an 08/18/2005 editorial blog posting on the Seattle Times website (which probably not very many people at all read):

(There is another option officials don’t talk much about, which is to shore up the existing structure with steel, as was done with the Magnolia Bridge. I have talked to several retired engineers who say this is quite feasible, but the state says it is not because of the continuing risk of failure. I hear this idea often from members of the public, but officially it is not on the table.)

Many emails are pouring in about the fighting yesterday. People are asking about LTC Kurilla being shot.

I was there for the intense close-quarters fighting, and am preparing a dispatch now. It should be ready by about Monday, depending on the breaks here.

I can say that the two leaders of Deuce Four–LTC Kurilla and CSM Prosser–fought hard and close. For CSM Prosser, after LTC Kurilla was shot three times, it became brutal hand-to-hand combat. I was up close, and saw the entire fight. These men have once again earned their reputations.

Hey, Righton, can’t you read? I said I wanted to see the option Pope was referring to. I just wanted to see some better supporting evidence that “retired engineers told Bruce Ramsey.”

I’m not for any damn tunnel, or for just tearing it down. I want the Viaduct replaced with another elevated highway. That’s all the money there is. If you read Ramsey’s blog that Pope cited, you’ll see even “tunnel or nothing” Steinbrueck realizes that.

The whole lack of leadership (and gumption) of supporters causes me more worry than Irons. There appears to be no will to step up to the plate and take on what may be an admittedly formidable task. The Gov, unions, and business leaders who say we need this need to look at he polls and not back away, but roll their sleeves and say we have a challenge, but we are going to turn it around. With some money and creative campaigning it can be changed–but the will appears not to be there.

NoWonder@12 Very true, he should at least do what he is doing for the war effort in Iraq if for no reason but saving lives. Why hasnt the fire department condemned it for safety, much as they would an old school or building? No I think the viaduct is just a bunch of spoiled children drinking latte and crying wolf.

Over here on the east side of the mountains it is WAY to quiet about I-912. Kinda freaky. I have a problem with that as well. The onslaught of television ad’s will probably hit late September. I am sure these will demonize the gas tax and the politicians who support it.

Jimmynap the silents is deafening, that’s due to the slow burning anger with the local goverment. They should tear down the AWV and allow the traffic to move on to I5. Then maybe they would spend less money wideing the freeway, or charge a toll to exit to downtown Seattle. You know a real large toll like $50.00 per car unless the car weights less than 1800 lbs. You can also remove the train tracks, put the train in a tunnel to noware, and route the AWV traffice over where the train ran.

I am not sure where JImmynap resides over here; i live a short walking distance from views of most of the bridges crossing either the Spokane River and the rail/I-90/Sunset Hwy bridges over Latah/Hangman’s creeks. There is a sentiment locally that whatever comes down regarding the AWV will portend a future for how the repair and retrofitting of some of these existing structures play out in the future. It is a great deal of wait and see.

One of the Spokane bridges has been undergoing repair now for a long time; it was almost completed then new cracks were discovered in the new segments. It is supposedly getting close to being finished now. That leaves four more to be redone at some point given funding and initiatives to do so. It is erroneous to believe that the East side is significantly less geologically threatened; though it is correct in recognizing that the AWV is relied upon by vastly more motorists. Local concern here is not so much for the Interstate’s structure but for the rail bridges, which are older and less stable. Few recognize that the three trestles crossing water just down the street from me are the major east/west route for all that is transported by rail. I run around and over these bridges as part of my daily workouts; they are old and vibrate excessively.

If I-912 is approved and the various funding mechanisms for retrofitting and repairing these types of structures is thrown back into the mix of state politics, it need be noted that the Eastside will be queueing up for their fair share lobbying hard for $$ that may or may not go to the AWV. Klake makes a point in closing and tearing it down asap.

klake @ 19 – Now you know we can’t do that… It would run right through the trailer park you live in….

Comment by fire_one— 8/20/05 @ 12:43 pm Which one, they would have to divert the traffic to the Eastside on 405. I have a place in Bellevue, Redmond, and Bellingham. The AWV wasn’t to stay up over two years, accourding to my friends that work for the state highway department. If you knew how unstable it is you wouldn’t travel over it. Remember we took the King Dome down for the same reasonsand it took less than two years to do it.

Here is a story from the Seattle Times of November 7, 2001. The type of earthquake that would collapse the viaduct and kill people should come along only once every 350 years. Further, it would be a lot cheaper and just as effective to simply shore up the existing structure.

I live in the Tri-Cities. Looking at the project jeapordized by I-912, Benton and Franklin Counties don’t really benefit all that much. Although the projects on the table have significance when you look at safety improvements etc… There isn’t much to get excited about. That worries me in that folks in the mid-columbia would vote for I-912 because of the perception that we don’t get much. Reality is the long term effects 912 would have.

Our local paper put out an editorial last Thursday, not specifically about 912 but rather to remind people to get informed. Hopefully they will see 912 for what it really is. Just another bunch of cowboys shooting their pistols in the air railing on politicians.

Even our local republican representation opposes 912 and voted for the gas tax noting the overall impacts of its passage.

I will have to go look again on the Spokane projects and get some more info.

Here is a story from the Seattle Times of November 7, 2001. The type of earthquake that would collapse the viaduct and kill people should come along only once every 350 years. Further, it would be a lot cheaper and just as effective to simply shore up the existing structure Comment by Richard Pope— 8/20/05 @ 1:29 pm

Pope you can get better info from the Seattle Weekly, but my friends did the repairs to the AWV and the stories they told, you be crazy to drive over that crack piece of junk. If you want to wait till the next earthquake, which could be anytime soon, and stay on the top deck. The best soultion is to tear the piece of junk down before it falls down. But if want to shore it up put city hall, country and city jails, and King country offices under the structure to hold it up. When the great event happens it will be the greatest blessing that happen in Seattle. You will clean up city hall, King country, and the prison population will dimish.

Klake @ 27 – I’m always leery of “official” gummint reports, so I like getting reports from ground level. Your “friends” who did the repairs… are they licensed structural engineers who know how to evaluate structures, or are they the guys who installed the reinforcements?

Hmm, story then: 5,000/month dead if you only count children that died due to sanctions. Story now: 200/month total people who died.

Comment by Michael— 8/20/05 @ 1:49 pm

Michael don’t belive everything you read, but great analogy. The Iraris didn’t used the morgue back then unless you were lucky. The mass graves was the perfered method of deposal of the local people. I could tell you some stories of what they did in Kuwait, but we won’t go there. The paper I refure you to has a jaded view, but worth reading, they present a different vantange point on the subjected matter. The numbers game is not important unless you are one of the victims, that is why we don’t count the dead enemy anymore. That’s right Wribbit we don’t practice that custom since Nam.

Klake @ 27 – I’m always leery of “official” gummint reports, so I like getting reports from ground level. Your “friends” who did the repairs… are they licensed structural engineers who know how to evaluate structures, or are they the guys who installed the reinforcements?

Comment by Mark The Redneck— 8/20/05 @ 5:21 pm

Mark these folks have been repairing structurals for many years and are just a knowledgeable on the subject ase a licensed structural engineers. These chaps have save more engineers asses that the state has engineers. The degree is great, but the folks who does the work has better knowledge and experence on the end results.

Klake – Don’t get me wrong. I’m not demeaning the guys who do the heavy lifting on the repairs. Those are difficult, complex and technical jobs that require great skill, and in some cases big brass ones. I was just wondering where you’re getting your information.

But… I am a licensed Mechanical Engineer, and I have many friends who are also licensed PEs. Seismic analysis of large old complex structures is not for rookies. And while I have great respect for the heavy lifting guys, they are in no position to understand the details of structural seismic analysis. That’s not a slam… but there’s a limit to what they know and understand.

“There is a sentiment locally that whatever comes down regarding the AWV will portend a future for how the repair and retrofitting of some of these existing structures play out in the future. It is a great deal of wait and see.”

I think they’re probably right over there in Spokane. If the rest of the state shits on Seattle, voters over here won’t be very supportive of continuing to pay for improvements over there. They’ll want that $127 million of gas taxes they send to other counties every year to stay in King County for our needs here. There’s already talk of an initiative to that effect if I-912 passes, although I think the Seattle delegation in the legislature could get it done by themselves.

Klake- I read the link. It is interesting but had nothing in it I already didnt know. I thank god that we have freedom of speech and also that we have a alternative to the donk MSM we have to put up with.

I guess I think the reason want to bury the AWV truly is a big cover-up.

I have heard, from hanging around meetings in town, that a second troubling worry is the sea wall. We all have heard that the whole area is built on ‘reclaimed’ land, which was made from saw-mill-dust years ago. This area, which was really far from the Nisqually earthquake, took a lot of damage during that earthquake. It’s a marked liquefaction zone. My house is a mile away, Nisqually is about 38 miles away. Why did my area not take damage more on the order of (37/38)^2 fraction?

In other words: I think you could butress the AWV, but how are you going to fix the soil?

My impression is that a lot of people want a tunnel because its center of mass is lower, so it can’t sink; and it’s an excuse for repairing the sea wall without making a public noise about the problem near a tourist attraction.

So, to give some of you another way of looking at this: the problem is not that the AVW might pancake. The problem is that the AVW might pancake and wash out into the Sound with Pike Place Market bringing up the rear.

Goldy, Irons said on Siegel’s broadcast radio show that he’s against I-912, so I think the “vigil” is over. The fact is, it’s a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t situation for him. Regardless of what he says, you’ll always stick up for Ron Sims’ “leadership.” You haven’t given Irons much of a reason to waste his time on you.

Health you are getting real close to why the AWV will pancake. The real problem is with that wall and what is behind that wall is very ugly. Some one made a comment about the Boston. Well they are closer to what the price tag will be to complete. My friends found some real nasty stuff in the ground when they made the repairs after the earthquake. My dad did not like what he saw in Pike Place Market; and suggested the foundations need to be replaced. The city of Seattle needs to condemn all the buildings and structures that do not meet the latest building code. Forget the tunnel, cleanup the mess and tear down the AWV and run the new road over the rail line or let the overflow land on I5. Seattle needs to join the next century running like a big city not a rural area.

Pretty artist renderings BUT the gas tax (if it survives I-912) will provide $1 billion and I think the feds are kicking in $200 million — so where will WSDOT get the other $3 billion? From King County taxpayers?

That’s $1,659 per King County resident, not counting interest, and before you add on for the local share of other King County projects (e.g., 405, 520).

Not worth it for downtown beautification. Go functional and keep the cost down.

Assuming the type of earthquake that would collapse the viaduct and kill people should come along only once every 350 years is correct. From what I have read it appears that an earthquake of this magnitude hit the Puget Sound region in January of 1701. That was 304 years, almost 305 years ago. It’s not qoing to be exactly 350 years, so it might not happen for another 100 years, or it could happen any time now.

The viaduct gets $2 billion in state gas tax money (if it isn’t repealed by I-912). For the state legislature to provide that amount of money for a single project I think that at least some legislators and the gov., also WSDOT, know in more detail than the general public that this structure is on borrowed time.

Why not close it? Because if they close it and cause gridlock in Seattle and nothing happens to make it collapse a lot of people are going to be very angry. If they leave it open to traffic and it falls down and kills people when that once every 350 years magnitude earthquake hits, people will be very angry. So they decided to raise the gas tax to keep up with inflation and provide most of the money to replace it with a safe structure. And in the meantime hope like hell the big quake doesn’t hit before it is replaced.

Then a couple of right wing talk show hosts at KVI decide it would be great fun and improve their ratings if they stirred up public anger and had someone file an initiative to repeal the tax, which they then pushed on the air.

So if you were a legislator who voted for the transportation bill just what DO you do now?

I’ve got a hint; take a stand on the issue one way or the other. Some elected officials already have taken a stand, but from most, the silence is deafening.

the stand from the right, and even from a couple of you lefties is, “get an honest study, and if needed rebuild it, or fix it, but do it cheap; no salmon beaches, tunnels, homeless shelters, artwork, etc.”

Problem is Seattle is so 1 party, PC, that nobody gets an honest voice debating this. So you get righties like me carping, but nobody in Wallinford or Queen Anne ever calls BS on it.

Why does everyone keep saying that the Tunnel is Off The Table, when the Tunnel Alternative remains — to this very day — the official choice to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. If you don’t believe me, check it out for yourselves:

“WSDOT, the Federal Highway Administration and City of Seattle have selected the Tunnel Alternative to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct following three years of environmental and engineering review, 76 initial concepts, over 200 community meetings and over 4,500 public comments.”

If we fail in Iraq — and I don’t think we will — it won’t be because the American people lack heart, but because leaders and institutions have failed. Rather than fretting about support at home, let them show themselves dedicated to waging and winning a strange kind of war and describing it as it is, candidly and in detail. Then the American people will give them all the support they need.

The scholar in me is not surprised when our leaders blunder, although the pundit in me is dismayed when they do. What the father in me expects from our leaders is, simply, the truth: an end to happy talk and denials of error, and a seriousness equal to that of the men and women our country sends into the fight.

– We did get an honest study. The overall conclusion of how much the shoreline needs a 5-lane seawall is kind of not advertised, for ‘some reason.’

– The price tag came in at the cost of a new Space Shuttle.

– We got 30% of that covered with the gas tax and federal moneys, probably.

Now, I am a KC resident who would pay $1653 (over 5 years, let’s say), for the AWV replacement tunnel.

It’s not realistic or honest to suggest just taking it out. :) People who suggest that must be joking or live very far away. Imagine if you were the living out in your desert villa, and it somehow took you 20 minutes in traffic to get to the nearest 4-way stop sign. The AWV is loud because it is busy[ It’s also an express lane for trucks going to SODO, the W. Seattle Bridge, etc.

If I could touch up those pretty drawings, I would only add a bottom level of trains, trucks, and busses. It would be a lot nicer if we had a ‘cargo express’ system that kept commerce and business in balance.

I have to wonder where $4B came into it. It isn’t that big.

I notice that there are suggestions of S. Lake Union improvements, too. I hope the city isn’t planning on handing Paul Allen another gift. The man’s Vulcan Venture does have its own money.

The other problem with the tunnel, besides the price, is that a lot of trucks won’t be allowed to use the tunnel, and will be forced on to I-5. The tunnel would actually cause more traffic congestion, not less.

That guy knows more about it than I do, and his opinion deserves consideration, but common sense argues that we can’t dictate what happens in another society by invading that country.

Iraq is not a nation, and never has been. It’s an artificial construct, created by Europeans who draw arbitrary lines on the map to further their own selfish interests. That part of the world is still stuck in the tribal phase of human social development. The creation of “Iraq” threw together three different ethnic/tribal groups who historically didn’t get along. The country was held together by force. When we removed the regime, there was nothing to keep these groups from going at each other’s throats except American troops, and unless we’re willing to keep American troops there forever, sooner or later the rival groups are going to have it out with each other. They may temporarily be making common sense to some extent for the time necessary to throw out the foreign invader. But given that country’s social history, it’s inevitable there will be an intertribal contest for power that most likely will be settled violently, to be followed by another iron-fisted regime.

I would be interested to hear more about why and how the good professor thinks our objective of a peaceful democracy can be achieved in Iraq. Maybe he knows something I don’t. I’m always willing to consider new evidence, and revise my conclusions in light of further evidence.

Of course, this type of analysis does not answer the question of whether we should be spending American lives to bring democracy to Iraq even if it’s possible. That’s a value judgment that depends, to some extent, on whose lives are being spent.

And it also does not answer the question of whether bringing democracy to the Iraqi people and improving their lives was our real motive for going in there, or is even our government’s present objective. There are lots of other countries ripe for similar “improvement,” the difference between them and Iraq being that Iraq sits on top of lots and lots of oil.

The thing liberals supporters of the AWV et al. have to wake up to is we can’t design the best solution for traffic or commerce or whatever, then ask people to pay for it. It has to be designed so people can afford it, even if the resulting design isn’t ideal from other standpoints.

In my household, if our family can’t afford something, we don’t buy it. Need, justification, or rationale is irrelevant if you can’t pay for it. Resistance to taxes is not much deeper than that. The average middle-class family is getting pounded from all sides by expenses and demands for money that in the aggregate far exceed what the family can pay, so middle-class Americans have learned to say “no” to demands for money. The problem, from their point of view, is not that they’re being asked to pay another 9 1/2 cents gas tax, but that they’re being asked to pay the increased gas tax on top of 10,001 other taxes, bills, and expenses.

If Democrats want to win elections, we have to learn to set a budget for government, that is reasonable in terms of what taxpayers can afford, then spend within that budget by setting priorities, managing for efficiency, and saying “no” to spending demands that don’t fit within the budget. If we want voters to trust us to run government, then we have to run government like we run our households. We have to offer them good management as a reason to put us in charge. If a business can’t do that it won’t survive, and if we don’t do that we won’t win elections.

Which brings me back to the AWV. Keep in mind, Heath, that AWV is only one of several expensive projects taxpayers are getting hit up for. Others include the Narrows Bridge, monorail (?), light rail, Hood Canal and 520 floating bridge replacements, I-405 widening. Many projects, but each taxpayer has only one pocket, and the taxpayers are getting frustrated by government coming back to them repeatedly for more and more money. No small number of taxpayers believe they can survive this barrage only by saying “no.” And the more times they have to say “no,” the more automatic it becomes.

I don’t think we can spend $4 billion on a tunnel if there’s a cheaper alternative. Nor do I believe the tunnel can be built for $4 billion. That’s the come-on price tag being touted by its promoters before you see the hidden costs (e.g., interest and inflation). You’re talking thousands of dollars per King County household for this one project. I think the whole project is in jeopardy if the planners don’t sharpen their pencils and get more creative at finding a more cost-effective solution. I’m prepared to vote against the local funding package that will be necessary to back up the state gas tax increase if they don’t.

Richard, I’m just trying to pound some sense into my fellow liberals because I’m sick of Republicans borrowing money like high school kids with stolen credit cards, spending trillions on baubles, and blowing stuff up. I want to win elections and restore rationality to our public life.

Look out, Mark, I’m dangerous! With more Democrats like me around, it’ll be harder for Republicans to get away with the things they excel at — stupidity, greed, and fiscal irresponsibility. Hell, I might even turn YOU into a Democrat if this goes far enough. :D

I’ve been looking over the state budget this afternoon. It’s a largish collection of arcanish documents. Not really far enough into to draw big conclusions. Just wondering where that 12% increase went.

I see a $1 billion increase in DSHS spending that mostly went to medical inflation and vendor rate increases. Medicaid is by far the biggest item in DSHS’s budget, and dwarfs spending on TANF (the main welfare program) by a factor of nearly 10. However, DSHS’s overall budget increase was about 6%.

The Department of Health experienced a large percentage increase (17%) but is a much smaller agency; about 2/3rds of its $137 million boost appears to be general and medical inflation, and the only really big new item is $49 million for county public health assistance. Hmmm, I wonder if that’s a new program, or what’s going on in that sector. I should look into that.

I see a big increase in the K-12 budget, almost $1 billion, mostly caused by population growth, enrollment increases, and general inflation.

WSDOT’s budget was actually cut by about $150 million from the previous biennium.

Ecology’s budget increased $60 million (18%) because of toxic cleanups and costs of implementing Initiative 297, the voters’ response to nuclear wastes. Looks like industry is succeeding in externalizing more pollution costs to taxpayers.

Corrections experienced a roughly 10% increase ($100 million), much of which is medical inflation. About 25% of incarceration costs (roughly $24,000 a year per prisoner) are inmate health care.

The UW’s budget increased only 3.6%, mostly COLAs and health benefits for employees. Medical inflation is everywhere. However, community colleges got $200 million more, mostly for enrollment increases. The state also is investing in more student financial aid in this biennium.

Otherwise, I don’t see very much agencies with double-digit increases, even little ones. It looks like the increased spending went largely to adjusting existing services to population growth, modestly expanding higher education enrollments (one of Gregoire’s campaign promises), and medical inflation. State employees collectively got a 5.2% pay boost over two years, but this pay raise is the only one they’ve received for a 6-year period. The COLA shows up in individual agency budgets but does not appear to be a major driver of the 12% spending increase.

This appears to be an “education” and “medical care” budget, with some population growth and increased enrollment thrown in for good measure.

I have a hard time with the idea of a 12% increase when inflation is only 3-4%. Real increases of 8-9% are unsustainable. Ref your earlier note of government running like households, this is the kind of stuff that continues to fuel the taxpayer revolt. If government refuses to act responsibily, then the bill payers are left with no choice but to cut off the air supply.

Medical inflation isn’t 3-4% and hasn’t been for many years. As I pointed out, medical inflation is a major factor in this budget. You also forgot to factor in population growth, w hich was 2.5% over the last 2 years. In addition, the state has to play catch up from 4 years of a weak state economy. We are shortchanging good students because we don’t have space for them in our community colleges and state universities. Also, as I pointed out, nearly $1 billion of budget growth went to K-12 education.

Being a heartless conservative you’d no doubt be happy to eliminate Medicaid for children and elderly. That’s a $7 billion. Yes, you can cut state taxes by $3.5 billion this way, while other states happily take the $3.5 billion of federal matching money off our hands. The nursing homes will be emptied onto the curbs, and Washington’s child mortality statistics will be competitive with Bangladesh.

Rabbit @ 69 and 70 – be careful on the roof. Easy for old geezers to fall off, and then I’d hafta pay all your medical bills.

Ref the thing with kids on medicare. We certainly can’t throw them out now, and not even a mean spirited greedy selfish heartless asshole conservative like me would suggest that…. but while you rail about corporations “externalizing” costs, doesn’t the same thing apply to women who breed indiscriminantly? Why is it OK for them to externalize their costs but not corporations? And if we continue to shield them from the consequences of their choices, doesn’t that just encourage more bad choices? How do we break the cycle? It’s clearly unsustainable the way it is.

How the fuck can anybody take the NYT seriously? Listen to the words they use. Tell me they aren’t just left wing hacks masquerading as journalists.

“…reading from the playbook…” “…Mr. Bush embraced the institute’s talking points…” “…Financed by some of the same Christian conservatives…” “…a fringe academic movement…” “…Like a well-tooled electoral campaign…” “…a 1999 Discovery manifesto…” “…the moral crusader…” “…The institute would not provide details about its backers “because they get harassed,” (and then the article proceeds to name many of them, presumably so they can get harassed)

This isn’t reporting. This is a hit piece. And it sure as shit isn’t “fair and balanced”. Fercrissakes moonbats, stop drinking fucking kool aid like this. Turn on Fox and find out what the fuck is really going on.

“while you rail about corporations ‘externalizing’ costs, doesn’t the same thing apply to women who breed indiscriminantly?”

Yes; but why do you omit to mention the men who, ahem, also have a hand in this?

“Why is it OK for them to externalize their costs but not corporations?”

I didn’t say it was OK, but why do you think it’s always the woman’s fault? (Had a nasty divorce, did you?) If kids end up on state assistance because papa (a) walked away, (b) beat the shit out of mama, or (c) had sex with the kids, should we blame mama?

In my opinion, there’d be a lot less of this externalizing if zippers didn’t come open so easy.

Rabbit @ 75 – Women have 100% control of the reproductive process. They decide if/when to put out. They decide whether to use birth control, and are under no obligation to inform the man if they decide to stop. They decide whether to abort or carry. They decide to keep or adopt. A man has zero vote on any of it. Therefore, women have 100% responsibility.

That’s why it’s called “pro choice”… women want all the choices and none of the responsibility or accountability.

I would say it is only at most 40% that women have primary control over:

(a) First 20%: “They decide if/when to put out.” EQUAL — it takes two to tango.

(b) Second 20%: “They decide whether to use birth control” EQUAL — either partner can choose to use birth control (did you know that A MAN CAN WEAR A CONDOM?)

(c) Third 20%: “are under no obligation to inform the man if they decide to stop” ADVANTAGE WOMAN — a woman can lie about whether she is using birth control and fool a man, while it would be hard for a man to only pretend to be using a condom.

(d) Fourth 20%: “They decide whether to abort or carry” TRUE ENOUGH

(e) Fifth 20%: “They decide to keep or adopt” EQUAL — adoption requires the consent of both parents, or a court proceeding to take away the rights of the parent (or parents) who don’t consent (in which case a very high burden of proof is required)

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