Petals thru bone

Hopefully this will turn out to be a fun kinda thread, nothing really scientific and we'll see how bullets (ammunition) perform against some big, tough, bleached out range (as in open range) cow bones.

I'm going to start out with Winchester 127gr +P+ ammunition, baseline is using 1 gallon, soft plastic water bags to capture the bullet;

Just as there are mathematical formulas to calibrate loose/tight ballistic gel to a properly calibrated constant, same principle can be used to calibrate water to ballistic gel. According to Duncan MacPherson, bullets penetrating pig gut, ballistic gel and water expand to the same general diameter. Again according to Duncan MacPherson, beginning on page 251 (of his WTI book) and subsequent pages, there are tables, graphs and descriptions equating bullet performance in water to ballistic gel numbers. So, if one knows impact velocity, bullet weight and expansion diameter; ballistic gel numbers can be calculated.

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin) by 481

Nice expansion. Kinda neat to see that little "gold star" at what used to be the bottom of the JHP cavity.

Must mean that you did it right. :D

Strykervet

August 2, 2011, 09:28 PM

I always get a kick out of stuff like this. Good job. I also like it because I have the exact same ammo, the T series bullets in 9mm, .40, and .45, but haven't been able to do anything like this lately. They look like well designed bullets.

Something that would work even better if you can afford to do it would be to go to butcher and get a calf leg or something similar. Then the bone would wet and surrounded by tough tissue. You may even be able to find a butcher that would donate to watch... Not like you need a good cut or anything.

481

August 2, 2011, 09:48 PM

Well.............since we are sharing pictures of tests, here is one of my most recent ones...:D

I did not expect the 20oz bottle to violently explode firing this ammunition. A plastic fragged part of the bottle that fits near the bottle's neck can be seen in the trough. A number of bone fragments were found in and outside the trough.

Given the repeated failures of the 165gr GD at accelerated velocities like those observed in .400 Corbon and 10mm; these tests were very encouraging to witness what this bullet is capable of at factory design velocities.

This is good carry ammunition for those who choose to carry the .40 S&W in medium weights.

Bob

481

August 3, 2011, 10:42 AM

At that distance, did you hit the target on your first shot? To ensure hits I get about 6ft away to enjoy those 'free' showers of water.

In all honesty, of the twenty-five or so tests that I have run at this distance (21 feet for the sake of simulating the (in)famous(?) average distance at which gun fights occur), I've only "missed" once, that round hitting far off center bag on the Fackler trough and exiting the side of the test arrangement.

See? Placement does matter. :D

Since I declined on the "submariner option" :neener: for my chronograph, I try to keep my chronograph a fair distance from the impact face and such an arrangement dictates a sizeable offset to keep it dry.

481

August 3, 2011, 11:29 AM

I didn't know what to expect with today's bone test with Speer's #53970 ammunition.

A 20oz bottle placed in front of the cow bone yields 3" of water penetration that causes the bullet to expand prior to hitting the bone.

The 3" set-up that I refer to in these bone tests will look similar to this;

I did not expect the 20oz bottle to violently explode firing this ammunition. A plastic fragged part of the bottle that fits near the bottle's neck can be seen in the trough. A number of bone fragments were found in and outside the trough.

Given the repeated failures of the 165gr GD at accelerated velocities like those observed in .400 Corbon and 10mm; these tests were very encouraging to witness what this bullet is capable of at factory design velocities.

This is good carry ammunition for those who choose to carry the .40 S&W in medium weights.

All of the recent tests demonstrate superior permanent wound cavity mass (Mw) that exceeds the "level of adequacy" (a Mw of 30 - 40 grams) for WTI (within preferred penetration depth of 15 inches or less) established by MacPherson in Chapter 11 of his book, Bullet Penetration.

Greater penetration is desirable because, "...deeper penetration produces somewhat higher velocity at every penetration depth, and blood vessels are at least somewhat more likely to be ruptured by grazing bullet impact at higher velocities." (from Bullet Penetration, page 278), and this load does very well in that regard.

Thanks, Bob. :)

MagnumDweeb

August 3, 2011, 01:00 PM

Excellent thread guys, hope this one gets made a sticky because it helps those of us unable to do our own testing get some insight. I'm confirmed on keeping my Glock 23 and feel alot better about getting a Glock 30 and putting .45 ACP +P through it for SD. I'll be getting some 1911s to over then next year but the Glock 30 better fits my pocket carry CCW needs. The 1911s will just be for the love of 1911s.

Standing Wolf

August 3, 2011, 05:32 PM

I always get a kick out of stuff like this. Good job.

I'll second that, and add a question: would a fresh rather than dry cow bone make much difference?

THplanes

August 3, 2011, 10:42 PM

I'll second that, and add a question: would a fresh rather than dry cow bone make much difference?

That's a big question. Brassfetchers tests using a bone simulant show a nice neat plug of the simulant plugging the HP cavity and he only got expansion with the DPX load. 2zulu1 test here and on another forum with dry cow bones shows a much different result. I would tend to go with the real bone tests. But it does leave open the question as to which is closest to living or at least fresh bone

788Ham

August 3, 2011, 11:04 PM

The fresher bones, more moisture, would be a better test of the bullets. The dried out bone fibers will separate during this drying period, the fresher bones will still have marrow in them, a more life like situation. Try a leg bone, more life like scenario also, instead of the scapula, a lot thinner bone.

481

August 3, 2011, 11:34 PM

The fresher bones, more moisture, would be a better test of the bullets. The dried out bone fibers will separate during this drying period, the fresher bones will still have marrow in them, a more life like situation. Try a leg bone, more life like scenario also, instead of the scapula, a lot thinner bone.

Thanks for the input.

I think your perspective has a lot of merit and your point is well taken. Fresh bone would be the most realistic of all expedients, but at least dry bone is still real bone and what we are limited to for the time being unless 2z1 is inclined to pursue it to that extent.

In future tests, I may find the opportunity to incorporate fresh bone into one (or more) of my tests if I find ammunition that seems to call for it. I am thinking that I'll probably just find the thickest example of bovine scapula that I can find though since it is nearly as thick as the majority of the bones (ribs, sternum, clavicle, scapula) in the upper portion of the human COM anatomy.

KenB22

August 3, 2011, 11:57 PM

Great tests guys. Please keep up the good work

2zulu1

August 4, 2011, 01:34 AM

I'll second that, and add a question: would a fresh rather than dry cow bone make much difference?
There is a local slaughter house nearby and I've looked into using 'fresh' bones (pig/cow) for testing instead of the bleached out open range bones. Given the number of tests I've done and am currently conducting, cost became an issue. I'll stop in again and see if there's a way to work things out so the tests can be done with fresh bones.

On the flip side, even soaking the range bones for several weeks did not soften them up any. Dried out bones make for a very tough barrier to penetrate, especially after the bullet has expanded.

I had planned on testing a handloaded 10mm/180gr Nosler earlier today, but I couldn't fit it into my schedule.

Since there was a request for testing against leg bones, I can post several results with both JHP and WFN loads.

Bob

2zulu1

August 4, 2011, 01:51 AM

OK, now I am in a "forty-five" kinda mood....

Sure, it is "economy" ammunition, but it really expanded well despite the barrier....:what:

I wonder if soaking the bones in water for a day would change their consistency to the point of a measurable difference in a bullet's performance. Or maybe something other than water.

2zulu1

August 4, 2011, 02:15 PM

I wonder if soaking the bones in water for a day would change their consistency to the point of a measurable difference in a bullet's performance. Or maybe something other than water.
I've soaked them for weeks on end, they don't soften.

Bob

2zulu1

August 4, 2011, 02:36 PM

Well, this morning's 10mm/180gr Nosler JHP was a bust. It doesn't appear the bullet expanded much in 3" of water, bullet hit edge of bone and deflected to the right and up, bullet was not recovered. The 1 gallon bottle opened up a little and there were no bone fragments inside. Basically, it's not worth my time to upload and post the pics. :(

For those who hike/camp in bear country and choose to carry a 10mm pistol instead of a .44mag, the 200gr WFNGC is about as good as it gets.

A note on the 230gr WFNGC bullets/ammo from Double Tap; I weighed 10 bullets in a random sampling from a box of 100 bullets. There were some very serious QA issues ranging from a sporatic lack of lube in the lube grooves to bullet weights. The measured weights of all 10 bullets ranged from 221 grains to 223 grains.

Another issue with DT's 230gr WFNGC is that the bullets don't stablize in factory Glock barrels causing them to keyhole about 20yds to 30 yards after leaving the barrel.

Okay, with that out of the way; how did the 200gr XTP (1220fps) fair against a cow leg joint?

While this morning's 10mm/180gr Nosler bone test was a flop; here's a test that went very, very well for the handloaded 10mm/180gr Gold Dot. Now that Double Tap ammunition no longer loads Gold Dot bullets, if one wants to carry a bonded bullet in 10mm, then it'll need to be handloaded.

The set-up for this test was a double 1.5mm steel barrier plus a cow bone;

Increase the velocity to ~1300fps and faster and the GD can come apart with reduced penetration. Not all bullets will come apart at these fast velocities, but reliable expansion comes at lower velocities. From another baseline test at a slightly faster MV;

In handloading the 10mm, one needs to remember that the bullets being loaded are designed for .40S&W velocities.

Bob

481

August 4, 2011, 05:59 PM

While this morning's 10mm/180gr Nosler bone test was a flop; here's a test that went very, very well for the handloaded 10mm/180gr Gold Dot. Now that Double Tap ammunition no longer loads Gold Dot bullets, if one wants to carry a bonded bullet in 10mm, then it'll need to be handloaded.

The set-up for this test was a double 1.5mm steel barrier plus a cow bone;

Using the equations provided here ( http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf ) for determining the ballistic limit (V50) and residual velocity (Vr) against steel targets and the data provided above, it is possible to estimate the residual velocity of the exiting 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot and get a good idea of its potential for penetration in soft tissue.

Using two separate thicknesses of 1.5mm CRS panel having a BHN of ~149, the residual velocity of the Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot would be 820.931 feet per second assuming (immediate) expansion to full recovered diameter (0.582") upon impact with the first of the two 1.5mm CRS panels.

Penetration depth and permanent wound cavity mass may then be predicted using the MacPherson model-

I am not sure that there is an equation/algorithm that would permit an estimate/prediction of residual ballistic velocity through bone (much less dried up cow bone) and even if we had such an animal, I'd find it suspect under such circumstances.

Thanks for the test, Bob.

:)

Creature

August 4, 2011, 06:04 PM

Live bone is far different than old and dried bone.

2zulu1

August 4, 2011, 06:40 PM

481
Using the equations provided here ( http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf ) for predicting V50 and residual velocity (Vr) against steel targets and the data provided above, it is possible to estimate the residual velocity of the exiting 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot and get a good idea of its potential for penetration in soft tissue.

Using two separate thicknesses of 1.5mm CRS panel having a BHN of ~149, the residual velocity of the Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot would be 820.931 feet per second assuming (immediate) expansion to full recovered diameter (0.582") upon impact with the first of the two 1.5mm CRS panels.

Penetration depth and permanent wound cavity mass may then be predicted using the MacPherson model-

I am not sure that there is an equation/algorithm that would permit an estimate/prediction of residual ballistic velocity through bone (much less dried up cow bone) and even if we had such an animal, I'd find it suspect under such circumstances.

Thanks for the test, Bob.

~14 inches of penetration after passing through 2 steel barriers is impressive. :D

Thank you for running the equations. :)

Bob

481

August 4, 2011, 06:50 PM

You are welcome.

The 10mm is good for getting through lots of "stuff" when lots of "stuff" gets in the way. :evil:

The information is well presented and the photography is VERY good.
Glad you are enjoying the thread, hopefully we'll be able to share more tests in the future. May have to saddle a horse and look for more bones. :)

Bob

orionengnr

August 5, 2011, 09:49 PM

I am very pleased to see the results of the Ranger 127+p+ and Ranger 230+p tests, since those are the rounds that I have been carrying in my Kahr PM9 and my various 1911s for several years now.

I have been thinking of moving to the HST, but at this point, I may delay that move for a while. Maybe a good while. :)

pisc1024

August 10, 2011, 12:24 PM

Hey guys, cool tests... Where have I seen them before???? Hmm...:neener:

Cop Bob

August 10, 2011, 06:16 PM

Thank you for running these tests and posting your results...Very enjoyable read..

As for the comments about dry bone.. True enough.. can be overcome with a good long soaking, or going by the butcher shop and picking up some fresh.. It will not alter the results by much.. just in the interests of accuracy and fairness..

Many years ago, we ran very similar tests after our Planning and Research Division read the FBI reports on the effectiveness of handgun ammunition. They came to the range, asked our opinion, and handed over some Federal Grant money and asked us if we could replicate and confirm.. was a fun time on the government dime...

Good work... I KNOW you want to run more with different calibers and bullet options.. Keep us posted...

2zulu1

August 10, 2011, 10:50 PM

It was Texas Ranger Frank Hamer who carried the .38 Super at the demise of Bonnie and Clyde and it was in his hand as the smoke cleared.

An advantage of the .356cal Super is the ability to load it with .357 mag velocity bullets. Loading with a neutral powder, PMAX is lower than degressive handgun powders, yet the pressure area under the curve is the same between the two types of powders.

This 125gr XTP had an MV of 1491fps (chamber pressure under 34,000psi) and it proved to be a very tough bullet.

True .357mag performance from a 1911 combined with faster split times than a G17. :D

Bob

481

August 11, 2011, 02:55 PM

Since many are constrained by "tight finances" these days, I try to shoot the "economy brand" JHPs whenever I get a chance since they are better than most people think. Often, they perform as well, and in some cases better, than the more recent (and more expensive) JHP designs.

Regardless of caliber, I normally prefer "heavy-for-caliber" ammunition, but this stuff acquitted itself rather nicely in this test.

The performance of the WinnyUSA stuff is always a pleasant surprise for me.

Much of it used to be the old SuperX ammunition line and was used by LE through the 1990s (some places like Cinci PD are still fielding this stuff even though it is under the WWB label) until the need for better terminal performance was answered by the ammo manufacturers.

I'll have a test for the WinUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP posted pretty soon.

As for the .38Super stuff, Bob just likes to "hotrod" whenever he can find an excuse to do so. It doesn't take much, mind you... :D

Dried heavy bones are much harder on a bullet than fresh wet bones. They remind me of porcelin. I have never seen a JHP SD type bullet hold together when hitting dried out moose bones. Some of the hunting type bullets like the Nosler Partition Gold and the heavier Barnes solid copper bullets will hold up though. Good solid hard cast LBT type bullets and heavy JSP bullets like the Sierra 300 grain 45 and 44 bullets will bust right through and keep on going. So will good old 45 ACP 230 grain hardball and a good 200 grain FMJ like the thick jacketed Hornady in 10mm. I tested out a variety of bullets over the last week shooting through a solid chunk of tree root with a soft backstop to catch the bullets. In 10mm the 175 grain Silvertip and 200 grain factory XTP went through and deformed badly and stopped at the backstop. Double Tap 200 grain Montana Gold FMJ's went right through and deep enough into the backstop that I could not get them out. In 45 acp the 230 grain Hornady TAP +P went through the root and stopped at the backstop. This bullet really held together and expanded beautifully. 230 grain DT hardball loaded with the Speer TMJ bullet went through and deep into the backstop without a scratch on the bullet. No wonder hardball goes through bones so well. A tough bullet a moderate velocity can be quite impressive. Winchester 240 grain White Box 44 Magnum bullets went through the root and expanded like in a textbook with 100% weight retention. The penetration was about the same as the 45 acp TAP +P load with a little less expansion. A factory 300 grain 44 Magnum XTP went right through and deep into the backstop. The bullet was pretty roughed up but it did keep most of its weight. The Double Tap 255 grain Keith heavy loaded 45 Colt went through both the root and the backstop. To stop this one I had to put a tougher backstop behind the root. The recovered hardcast bullet deformed a bit but kept most of its weight. A heavy handloaded 158 grain Speer Unicore JSP in 357 Magnum was a real suprise. It went right through the root and into the backstop with a perfect mushroom and 100% weight retention. The Unicore expands like a tougher version of the Gold Dot JHP. These are very good bullets for the money. I did not waste my time testing out heavier hardcast 44 Magnum and 45 Colt loads as I already know it would take more backstop than this to stop the heavy weights. When I was a teen my Dad got me a 45 acp. I carried it for years on the trails. It was mostly loaded with 230 hardball. Not a bad load afterall.

2zulu1

August 13, 2011, 02:47 AM

Rob,

The performance of the WinnyUSA stuff is always a pleasant surprise for me.

Much of it used to be the old SuperX ammunition line and was used by LE through the 1990s (some places like Cinci PD are still fielding this stuff even though it is under the WWB label) until the need for better terminal performance was answered by the ammo manufacturers.

I'll have a test for the WinUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP posted pretty soon.

As for the .38Super stuff, Bob just likes to "hotrod" whenever he can find an excuse to do so. It doesn't take much, mind you... :D
Looks like the Win 115gr JHP you tested did much better than one of the RA9115HP+ that I tested;

Dried heavy bones are much harder on a bullet than fresh wet bones. They remind me of porcelin. I have never seen a JHP SD type bullet hold together when hitting dried out moose bones. Some of the hunting type bullets like the Nosler Partition Gold and the heavier Barnes solid copper bullets will hold up though. Good solid hard cast LBT type bullets and heavy JSP bullets like the Sierra 300 grain 45 and 44 bullets will bust right through and keep on going. So will good old 45 ACP 230 grain hardball and a good 200 grain FMJ like the thick jacketed Hornady in 10mm. I tested out a variety of bullets over the last week shooting through a solid chunk of tree root with a soft backstop to catch the bullets. In 10mm the 175 grain Silvertip and 200 grain factory XTP went through and deformed badly and stopped at the backstop. Double Tap 200 grain Montana Gold FMJ's went right through and deep enough into the backstop that I could not get them out. In 45 acp the 230 grain Hornady TAP +P went through the root and stopped at the backstop. This bullet really held together and expanded beautifully. 230 grain DT hardball loaded with the Speer TMJ bullet went through and deep into the backstop without a scratch on the bullet. No wonder hardball goes through bones so well. A tough bullet a moderate velocity can be quite impressive. Winchester 240 grain White Box 44 Magnum bullets went through the root and expanded like in a textbook with 100% weight retention. The penetration was about the same as the 45 acp TAP +P load with a little less expansion. A factory 300 grain 44 Magnum XTP went right through and deep into the backstop. The bullet was pretty roughed up but it did keep most of its weight. The Double Tap 255 grain Keith heavy loaded 45 Colt went through both the root and the backstop. To stop this one I had to put a tougher backstop behind the root. The recovered hardcast bullet deformed a bit but kept most of its weight. A heavy handloaded 158 grain Speer Unicore JSP in 357 Magnum was a real suprise. It went right through the root and into the backstop with a perfect mushroom and 100% weight retention. The Unicore expands like a tougher version of the Gold Dot JHP. These are very good bullets for the money. I did not waste my time testing out heavier hardcast 44 Magnum and 45 Colt loads as I already know it would take more backstop than this to stop the heavy weights. When I was a teen my Dad got me a 45 acp. I carried it for years on the trails. It was mostly loaded with 230 hardball. Not a bad load afterall.
Thank you for sharing your real world experiences. Hard cast bullets make for great game getters as you posted. In the Nov/Dec 2009 edition of American Handgunner John Taffin wrote about taking two 500+ pound feral hogs cleanly and quickly with a .44 Special/Keith bullet (250-260grs) at 950fps.

A scandium Smith .44 Special/WFN is my BUG while I'm working out back on the property when mountain lions come down from the nearby wilderness areas. One time I was in heavy mesquite and a lion took down a javelina about 30 yards away w/o me hearing/seeing it happen. It was a fresh kill with blood pooling on top of the ground, the blood didn't have the time to soak into the dirt.

Here's an example of what a hard cast bullet is capable of, entrance hole of a .357mag/180gr WFNGC;

One comemnt though: you get different types of bone, and different mineralisation along different lengths of the same bone.
The flat bones such as the scapula and skull don't fracture as dramatically as the cylindrical cortical bone such as femur and tibia.
With regards to wet vs dry, the wet will offer more resistance to perforation because of the presence of blood, marrow and periosteum. Other effects may be noticeable, for example if you shoot a wet head vs dry skull, you may find pressure-related fractures of the fine bones around the orbits, which doesn't happen when shooting dry skull.

Those fracture patterns of the bones you have shot, are not much different from the fracture patterns I have seen on real live GSW patients. Holes in the scapulae and iliac blades tend to be punched out. In bone epiphyses where you have more cancellous bone than cortical, you often see little fragmentation but in the shaft of a long bone it shatters into many fragments.

You can work out direction of fire through long bones on the patient's X-rays provided the two wounds have been marked with a paperclip or other radio-opaque marker prior to X-ray. The exit side often has a buttlerfly fragment with the apex of the trapezium pointing towards the entrance wound.

481

August 13, 2011, 11:39 PM

Nice thread!

One comemnt though: you get different types of bone, and different mineralisation along different lengths of the same bone.
The flat bones such as the scapula and skull don't fracture as dramatically as the cylindrical cortical bone such as femur and tibia.
With regards to wet vs dry, the wet will offer more resistance to perforation because of the presence of blood, marrow and periosteum. Other effects may be noticeable, for example if you shoot a wet head vs dry skull, you may find pressure-related fractures of the fine bones around the orbits, which doesn't happen when shooting dry skull.

Those fracture patterns of the bones you have shot, are not much different from the fracture patterns I have seen on real live GSW patients. Holes in the scapulae and iliac blades tend to be punched out. In bone epiphyses where you have more cancellous bone than cortical, you often see little fragmentation but in the shaft of a long bone it shatters into many fragments.

You can work out direction of fire through long bones on the patient's X-rays provided the two wounds have been marked with a paperclip or other radio-opaque marker prior to X-ray. The exit side often has a buttlerfly fragment with the apex of the trapezium pointing towards the entrance wound.

Odd Job,

Thanks.

So scapulae and skull bone tissue are both cancellous?

The reason I ask is that if we are shooting through scapulae and it is roughly analogous to skull in that aspect, then we are also seeing a bit of what can be expected with a head shot as well given the same property? :confused:

Am I also correct in assuming that ribs/sternum/vertebrae (Cervical thru Lumbar) are primarily cortical and more likely to shatter like a femur?

Now that I look at Bob's photos with the knowledge you've imparted above, I see how it is possible to ascertain the entry and exit through a bone esp. like a scapula.

Thanks for the contribution. I sure hope you'll stick around as this effort progresses as I'd appreciate your input whenever you have something to offer. :cool:

:)

481

August 13, 2011, 11:50 PM

I still enjoy WW Silvertips in my 9mm. 115 gr rounds run hot in my BHP clone.
If you are interested in saving a few bucks, I have it on good authority from two Winchester personnel that the 115 gr. and 147 gr. JHPs used in the WinchesterUSA loads are the same bullets used in the Silvertip ammo- minus the shiny silver plating on their exteriors.

481

August 13, 2011, 11:55 PM

Looks like the Win 115gr JHP you tested did much better than one of the RA9115HP+ that I tested;

Bob
Considering that there is a significant difference in impact velocity, I am not so sure.

Betcha if we over-drove the WinchesterUSA 9mm 115 gr. JHP to the same speed as that Winchester RA9115HP+, we'd get the same result as you did and I am willing to bet that the two bullets are actually one in the same design.

Odd Job

August 14, 2011, 11:02 AM

So scapulae and skull bone tissue are both cancellous?

It isn't as simple as that.
All bone has a cortex, and therefore some of it will be cortical. In some areas of the same bone, the cortex will be thicker than others. It is all about the ratio of cortical to cancellous that detemines whether you are likely to have a shattered vs a punched bone.

With real patients it is very difficult to work out trajectories through flat bones based on the fractures themselves, because most of the time all you see is a hole or a luceny on X-ray. You don't get to see the bevelling as in the dry bones.
Of course, if pieces of bone from the scapula or pieces of metal from the projectile extend away from the scapula then you can have a reasonable assertion that the fragments point to the exit.

Some variables to consider:

1) Post shooting handling of the person by emergency crews may involve reduction or worsening of fractures
2) In real living tissues you have a perisosteum around the bone (think of it like a thin sheath of sausage skin). That has to play a role in the limitation of the displacement of some fragments
3) Projectiles travelling parallel to flat bones can produce unusual fractures

481

August 14, 2011, 02:10 PM

It isn't as simple as that.
All bone has a cortex, and therefore some of it will be cortical. In some areas of the same bone, the cortex will be thicker than others. It is all about the ratio of cortical to cancellous that detemines whether you are likely to have a shattered vs a punched bone.

With real patients it is very difficult to work out trajectories through flat bones based on the fractures themselves, because most of the time all you see is a hole or a luceny on X-ray. You don't get to see the bevelling as in the dry bones.
Of course, if pieces of bone from the scapula or pieces of metal from the projectile extend away from the scapula then you can have a reasonable assertion that the fragments point to the exit.

Some variables to consider:

1) Post shooting handling of the person by emergency crews may involve reduction or worsening of fractures
2) In real living tissues you have a perisosteum around the bone (think of it like a thin sheath of sausage skin). That has to play a role in the limitation of the displacement of some fragments
3) Projectiles travelling parallel to flat bones can produce unusual fractures

Thank you, I appreciate your time. :)

OK, I think I have it now. So the proportion of cancellous or cortical tissue determines how the bone is generally classified?

While I realize that periostic membrane is present around many bones, I never considered it "tensile" enough to retain high energy projectile fragments, but the perspective you offer (arguably much more educated than mine) in this area is something that I will not fail to consider when viewing future tests.

Also, when you see luceny on an Xray, is that indicative of more of a complete fracture held in place by the surrounding structure(s)/tissues or more likely a fissure that might be a partial/incomplete fracture that hasn't progressed fully through the bone? Are these common at the impact site of a projectile perforation through bone (radially extending from the perforation)?

I am just trying to get an idea of the fracture mechanics involved here so that when I see test results I have at least a simple, if not improved, understanding of what I am seeing.

As you might have guessed by my questions, I find this topic very interesting. :cool:

Odd Job

August 14, 2011, 03:05 PM

Also, when you see luceny on an Xray, is that indicative of more of a complete fracture held in place by the surrounding structure(s)/tissues or more likely a fissure that might be a partial/incomplete fracture that hasn't progressed fully through the bone? Are these common at the impact site of a projectile perforation through bone (radially extending from the perforation)?
I am just trying to get an idea of the fracture mechanics involved here so that when I see test results I have at least a simple, if not improved, understanding of what I am seeing.

This requires a long answer with some images. I don't want to mess up the OP's thread so I'll make another one. Stay tuned.

481

August 14, 2011, 04:02 PM

This requires a long answer with some images. I don't want to mess up the OP's thread so I'll make another one. Stay tuned.

I will, count on it. :)

2zulu1

August 15, 2011, 02:42 AM

This requires a long answer with some images. I don't want to mess up the OP's thread so I'll make another one. Stay tuned.
OP is flexible, Hi-Power test in the morning. :)

Bob

newbuckeye

August 15, 2011, 05:31 AM

Great thread! I am glad to see my choice of rounds fairing well in your tests!

2zulu1

August 15, 2011, 05:22 PM

Slight rain delay this AM, Browning Hi-Power was used in today's test, bullet would cut into right edge of bone; but more on that later:

On my mind for today's test was the deflection of the handloaded 10mm/180gr Nosler JHP that also cut through the edge of a cow bone. I don't have an explanation as to why the lighter 9mm JHP stayed true to course and the heavier, faster moving 10mm bullet didn't.

Going back and reconstructing this test, we can observe why the Gold Dot expanded in an asymetrical manner. I was fortunate enough to cut into the bone about 1/2 caliber; the result:

What I interpet in the above picture is a snapshot in time, bullet rotation during a ~0.5" travel distance and the reason why 2 petals did not fold back as the remaining 4 did. The hole in the plastic bottle was also elongated as displayed by the bullet placed in the hole.

Given the very wide expansion, penetration for this GD will be much less than the 4 layer denim baseline test.

On my mind for today's test was the deflection of the handloaded 10mm/180gr Nosler JHP that also cut through the edge of a cow bone. I don't have an explanation as to why the lighter 9mm JHP stayed true to course and the heavier, faster moving 10mm bullet didn't.

Going back and reconstructing this test, we can observe why the Gold Dot expanded in an asymetrical manner. I was fortunate enough to cut into the bone about 1/2 caliber; the result:

What I interpet in the above picture is a snapshot in time, bullet rotation during a ~0.5" travel distance and the reason why 2 petals did not fold back as the remaining 4 did. The hole in the plastic bottle was also elongated as displayed by the bullet placed in the hole.

Given the very wide expansion, penetration for this GD will be much less than the 4 layer denim baseline test.

As you suspected, due to significantly greater expansion, this one went a little shallower than the baseline but the reduction in predicted penetration was about 1.5 inches (that's a penetration loss of a little more than 12%), not that bad considering what the JHP had to go through to get there.

Thanks, Bob.

:)

JTQ

August 15, 2011, 10:47 PM

Thanks for the hard work and expense of doing these tests. I find them fascinating.

I always hope to see a "control" round in tests like these. Set up a baseline for performance such as 230 gr. ball ammo, or 200 gr. semi-wadcutter rounds in .45ACP. These are probably the most shot rounds in .45ACP, yet both are virtually absent from tests done by law enforcement or ammo makers.

I realize both would most likely penetrate more and expand less than their hollow point brethren, but the comparison would be nice to see.

481

August 15, 2011, 11:47 PM

Thanks for the hard work and expense of doing these tests. I find them fascinating.

I always hope to see a "control" round in tests like these. Set up a baseline for performance such as 230 gr. ball ammo, or 200 gr. semi-wadcutter rounds in .45ACP. These are probably the most shot rounds in .45ACP, yet both are virtually absent from tests done by law enforcement or ammo makers.

I realize both would most likely penetrate more and expand less than their hollow point brethren, but the comparison would be nice to see.

JT,

Because the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 +/- 25 fps fps and other similar "un/less likely to-expand" designs are unlikely to expand in such tests (using either calibrated ordnance gelatin or water test medium), it is easier to just "plug the parameters in" to MacPherson's predictive equations (empirically researched in his book by firing over 400 rounds into over a ton of calibrated gelatin) and "skip" the test since it would take an awful lot of water to stop such a projectile. (somewhere between 60 and 75 inches of "water column" depending upon impact velocity)

For the sake of comparison, here are a few predicted penetration depths using ρ set to 1.030 grams/cubic centimeter for soft tissue/calibrated gelatin:

9mm 115 gr. FMJRN @ 1155 fps: 28.0"

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN @ 1120 fps: 29.7"

9mm 147 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps: 34.7"

.40 155 gr. FMJTC @ 1160 fps: 32.4"

.40 165 gr. FMJTC @ 1125 fps: 33.9"

.40 180 gr. FMJTC @ 950 fps: 33.5"

.45 185 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps: 28.1"

.45 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 fps: 29.7"

That help? :)

Usertag

August 15, 2011, 11:58 PM

What an expansion! That was a perfectly executed round. Every HP I see usually expands and goes into one-billion pieces. The Federal and the Winchester did great. But I would expect that from Federal.

Rail Driver

August 16, 2011, 12:28 AM

I'd like to see the tests with FMJ, though I know expansion won't be nearly as drastic, would there be any at all? The numbers don't really tell a lot of us less technical folks a whole lot.

2zulu1

August 16, 2011, 12:44 AM

JT,

Because the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 +/- 25 fps fps and other similar "un/less likely to-expand" designs are unlikely to expand in such tests (using either calibrated ordnance gelatin or water test medium), it is easier to just "plug the parameters in" to MacPherson's predictive equations (empirically researched in his book by firing over 400 rounds into over a ton of calibrated gelatin) and "skip" the test since it would take an awful lot of water to stop such a projectile. (somewhere between 60 and 75 inches of "water column" depending upon impact velocity)

For the sake of comparison, here are a few predicted penetration depths using ρ set to 1.030 grams/cubic centimeter for soft tissue/calibrated gelatin:

9mm 115 gr. FMJRN @ 1155 fps: 28.0"

9mm 124 gr. FMJRN @ 1120 fps: 29.7"

9mm 147 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps: 34.7"

.40 155 gr. FMJTC @ 1160 fps: 32.4"

.40 165 gr. FMJTC @ 1125 fps: 33.9"

.40 180 gr. FMJTC @ 950 fps: 33.5"

.45 185 gr. FMJTC @ 975 fps: 28.1"

.45 230 gr. FMJRN @ 850 fps: 29.7"

That help? :)
So, how did the original 130gr FMJ in .38Super/1300fps do?

Also in .38Super, handloaded 147gr FMJ at 1288fps? :)

Bob

481

August 16, 2011, 11:14 AM

I'd like to see the tests with FMJ, though I know expansion won't be nearly as drastic, would there be any at all? The numbers don't really tell a lot of us less technical folks a whole lot.

Rail Driver,

Unless they strike something hard and strong enough to deform them, FMJs typically show no expansion after penetration through only soft tissue.

The numbers provided above in my prior post to JTQ are nothing more than maximum potential depths of penetration expressed in inches for each weight and FMJ configuration impacting at the specified velocity if it were fired into test media long enough to contain it until it came to a stop and could go no further. (imagine shooting into a very long test block of ordnance gelatin)

Not very technical at all- just maximum penetration in inches.

I hope this clears it up for you.

481

August 16, 2011, 11:28 AM

So, how did the original 130gr FMJ in .38Super/1300fps do?

Also in .38Super, handloaded 147gr FMJ at 1288fps? :)

Bob

Sure.

.38 Super 130 gr. FMJRN @ 1300 fps: 33.99"

.38 Super 147 gr. FMJFP @ 1288 fps: 40.86"

If you want penetration against soft tissue, either load would provide a lot of it.

:)

JTQ

August 16, 2011, 05:43 PM

In reference to why not FMJ,
481 wrote,
Unless they strike something hard and strong enough to deform them, FMJs typically show no expansion after penetration through only soft tissue.
From the very first post in this thread
2zulu1 wrote,
see how bullets (ammunition) perform against some big, tough, bleached out range (as in open range) cow bones.

I think that is what is happing with, the "big, tough, bleached out range cow bones". I would think they would be hard enough and strong enough to deform them.

The ballistic gelatin test has been around for so long all the maker's top bullets pretty much perform the same. Penetration is within a couple of inches of each other (within the same caliber and bullet weight), weight retention within a few grains, and expansion within hundredths of an inch. There really isn't much of a measurable difference until you get to different style of bullet.

I think ball or semi-wadcutters would be interesting to test simply because they are different, but it isn't my test and I'm not doing the work or spending the cash. I do appreciate the testing and hard work expended, though. Keep up good work it is very interesting to follow.

481

August 16, 2011, 06:18 PM

I think ball or semi-wadcutters would be interesting to test simply because they are different, but it isn't my test and I'm not doing the work or spending the cash. I do appreciate the testing and hard work expended, though. Keep up good work it is very interesting to follow.

I am not sure, but Bob may've shot such a test in the past. I know for a fact that I haven't done so, but he may be able to post something that will satisfy your curiosity about such designs.

481

August 16, 2011, 11:48 PM

As I promised earlier in this thread, here are the results for the test of the WinchesterUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP-

I think ball or semi-wadcutters would be interesting to test simply because they are different

I actually like this idea... I use lead SWC in my carry 1911 Commander, and would love to see what these do to "fresh" bone (I wish I had a hog torso to donate. fair approximation to human). Maybe I'll have to go hunting and subsequently conduct my own test...

481

August 17, 2011, 05:29 PM

Another test of the WinchesterUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP with different and very interesting results-

Conventional (unbonded "cup and core" construction) Winchester JHPs regardless of caliber have a jacket that comprises about 17% of total projectile weight so when jacket separation occurs (all brands of unbonded JHPs are subject to this), momentum (ρ = mass x velocity) is reduced and performance suffers. Although penetration depth is similar, Mw is significantly less than the prior test of the same ammunition under the same conditions due to a smaller expanded diameter.

As much as I like to see a "perfect" test, the "failures" are what I find most illuminating.

Thanks for the hard work and expense of doing these tests. I find them fascinating.

I always hope to see a "control" round in tests like these. Set up a baseline for performance such as 230 gr. ball ammo, or 200 gr. semi-wadcutter rounds in .45ACP. These are probably the most shot rounds in .45ACP, yet both are virtually absent from tests done by law enforcement or ammo makers.

I realize both would most likely penetrate more and expand less than their hollow point brethren, but the comparison would be nice to see.
I can test both the .45auto/200gr SWC and 230gr FMJ-WWB. I'll attempt to deform both types of bullets against thick bone. :)

Bob

JTQ

August 18, 2011, 11:11 AM

2zulu1 wrote,
I can test both the .45auto/200gr SWC and 230gr FMJ-WWB. I'll attempt to deform both types of bullets against thick bone.
Thanks.

You don't have to try and deform them, whatever happens, happens.

I've found this article to be an interesting one concerning bullet shape and penetration.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

I have seen several gelatin tests with ball ammo (rifle and pistol) where the round did yaw and ended up exiting the media along the side rather than penetrate straight through as you more often see with wadcutter/semi-wadcutter and hollow point bullets.

481

August 18, 2011, 11:48 AM

Thanks for the link, JT.

That article offers by far the best explanation I've seen in a long while of the phenomena of (super)cavitation and how it facilitates the deep penetration produced by flatnose and truncated cone nose projectiles. The effect is counter-intuitive to most not familiar with the discipline of fluid dynamics, but once the mechanics are understood, it is really amazing to see how simple it really is.

When a body moves through a fluid at high speed and the fluid has to move around it at a rapid pace, the pressure in the flow area drops in terms of Bernoulli’s law. In the case of a bullet traveling through a medium such as water (or animal tissue containing huge percentages of water), the water or tissue has to flow around the bullet.
The faster the bullet travels through the water, the more the pressure in the flow decreases and a point can be reached where the flow pressure equals the vapour pressure of water (or any other medium it is traveling through). When that occurs, the water converts to gas and bubbles or cavities appear and that constitutes cavitation. The sharper the edge across which the flow occurs (such as a semi-wadcutter leading edge), the easier it happens. The more the cavitation due to faster flow (higher velocities) the more rapid the extent of cavitation, until a point is reached where all the small vapour bubbles fuse into a large, stable bubble around the bullet. The single large bubble enveloping the bullet constitutes supercavitation. The effect of which is that only the meplat on the bullet nose remains in contact with the terminal medium. The rest of the bullet travels in a capsule of low-pressure tissue vapour, much more comparable to air than water or flesh.
While encapsulated in this low pressure cavity, penetration reducing drag on the bullet as well as its tendency to tumble is reduced because it travels in a virtual atmospheric medium – not the 30-40 times denser water or body tissue.

JTQ

August 18, 2011, 03:41 PM

Most likely the reason Jeff Cooper favored the truncated cone bullet as a replacement for ball ammo.

Surprsingly decent stuff for "economy" ammo, I keep a fair amount (700-800 rounds) of it on hand as an "emergency stash" and occasionally load and carry it. Its expansion to nearly 3/4" is reassuring to say the least. :D

2zulu1

August 20, 2011, 02:44 AM

I went through some of my old tests looking for a hardcast bullet that was deformed.

This was a very light Unique powder load, only 1281fps/874fpe from a M629/6.5". Lasercast data shows a Brinell Hardness of 24 for their line of hardcast bullits. FWIW, Lasercast #1 has load data pushing this bullet into the 1500s.

Backstop was caliche clay, slick as ice when wet and hard as concrete when dry. :)

Bob

481

August 21, 2011, 03:07 PM

That's a pretty tough bullet to retain all that mass even after crashing into sunbaked caliche at close to 1300 fps and I'd bet that it wouldn't suffer as much damage if fired through dried bone.

2zulu1

March 4, 2012, 10:39 PM

I've pretty much recovered from a prolonged illness and it's time to resurrect this thread if there's enough interest.

I'm planning to baseline two more 357 mag factory loads; Remington's 125gr JSP and Federals 158gr JSP. It's expected that the JSPs will penetrate deeper than their JHP counterparts because they will expand less, but to what extent, I don't know.

We'll also learn how tough the 357/140gr XTP is against our bleached out range cow bones. :)

Ak.Hiker

March 5, 2012, 12:36 AM

Glad to see you are feeling better. Should be an interesting test. In my testing of 357 JSP loads for penetration I did find that through moose leg bones the 158 JSP out did any JHP that I tested in service calibers. The load tested was a Sierra handload to factory specs. Should be real close to the Federal. For an even tougher 158 grain JSP check out the Speer Unicore. Less exposed lead and Unicore construction make for a pretty tough bullet at handgun velocity. I have never tested the Remington 125 JSP but I hear it is loaded to match the velocity of the 125 JHP SD load. Should be pretty snappy.

2zulu1

March 5, 2012, 12:55 AM

Thanks for the heads up. Plan is to chronograph in the morning and then test, I also have some 170gr Gold Dots that can be tested. I'll take your lead on the 158gr JSP and find a thicker bone to try and bust up. :)

2zulu1

March 5, 2012, 12:03 PM

Remington advertises their JSP ammunition as having deep penetration with expansion, "perfect for hunting and practice".

Well, it certainly penetrates, but I'm unable to report on its expansion.

This morning's setup had six one gallon bottles filled with water and two one gallon bottles that had large chunks of ice floating on about 1" of water. Muzzle was about 6' from the first bottle which totally split open upon impact, it then penetrated all six water bottles and the two 'ice' bottles before exiting. The 'ice' chunks were reduced to ice slivers, but I believe the chunks were soft ice rather than deep freeze hard ice.

The plan was to capture the bullet, measure its expansion and then chronograph from 4" & 6" barrels, in addition, compare the JHP MVs with the SJHP MVs.

This morning's test used a M686+/6" and based upon the SJHP MV chronograph data, impact velocity was in the 1626fps range.

I'm surprised at what the factory 125gr JSP did and would have expected this from the 158gr JSP, total works out to 33" of water and 11" of ice. Bullet remained intact because no fragments or the bullet's casing were found in the trough.

481

March 5, 2012, 03:04 PM

Sounds like the JSP didn't expand.

This link, provided earlier by JTQ (thanks again for the link :) )...

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

...presents an excellent easy to understand description of why bullets with meplats produce greater penetration than their round-nose bretheren. It is a definte "must read" IMHO.

When a body moves through a fluid at high speed and the fluid has to move around it at a rapid pace, the pressure in the flow area drops in terms of Bernoulli’s law. In the case of a bullet traveling through a medium such as water (or animal tissue containing huge percentages of water), the water or tissue has to flow around the bullet.
The faster the bullet travels through the water, the more the pressure in the flow decreases and a point can be reached where the flow pressure equals the vapour pressure of water (or any other medium it is traveling through). When that occurs, the water converts to gas and bubbles or cavities appear and that constitutes cavitation. The sharper the edge across which the flow occurs (such as a semi-wadcutter leading edge), the easier it happens. The more the cavitation due to faster flow (higher velocities) the more rapid the extent of cavitation, until a point is reached where all the small vapour bubbles fuse into a large, stable bubble around the bullet. The single large bubble enveloping the bullet constitutes supercavitation. The effect of which is that only the meplat on the bullet nose remains in contact with the terminal medium. The rest of the bullet travels in a capsule of low-pressure tissue vapour, much more comparable to air than water or flesh.
While encapsulated in this low pressure cavity, penetration reducing drag on the bullet as well as its tendency to tumble is reduced because it travels in a virtual atmospheric medium.

Supercavitation eliminates all viscous drag components (save for a very small amount at the stagnation point) leaving only inertial drag components (these are governed by the material's strength properties) to slow and eventually stop the flat nose bullet.

If the .357 125 gr. JSP @ ~1600+ fps failed to expand, its flat frontal surface will act like a meplat and produce cavitation (but only at velocities in excess of 500 fps).

In such a case, MacPherson's penetration model indicates that it would've been capable of producing at least 38.5 inches of calibrated ordnance gelatin penetration which means that (using the penetration conversion factor ~2.5x for converting gelatin to water penetration) you would need at least 95-100 inches (about eight and a half feet) of water column to bring it to a halt.

Maybe it is time to start shooting into stock tanks...:evil:

481

March 5, 2012, 04:11 PM

Since it uses the exact same projectile as the Winchester RA9B, this is one of my favorite SD/CCW loads for the Glock 17...

:)
Nice test with decent numbers, now we can go ahead with the RA9B bone test once I pass the Android/Photobucket test plus the post pic test. Must be time for finals. :)

Have you run split times with this ammunition G17 vs P226?

2zulu1

March 6, 2012, 02:29 AM

Sounds like the JSP didn't expand.

This link, provided earlier by JTQ (thanks again for the link :) )...

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

...presents an excellent easy to understand description of why bullets with meplats produce greater penetration than their round-nose bretheren. It is a definte "must read" IMHO.

Supercavitation eliminates all viscous drag components (save for a very small amount at the stagnation point) leaving only inertial drag components (these are governed by the material's strength properties) to slow and eventually stop the flat nose bullet.

If the .357 125 gr. JSP @ ~1600+ fps failed to expand, its flat frontal surface will act like a meplat and produce cavitation (but only at velocities in excess of 500 fps).

In such a case, MacPherson's penetration model indicates that it would've been capable of producing at least 38.5 inches of calibrated ordnance gelatin penetration which means that (using the penetration conversion factor ~2.5x for converting gelatin to water penetration) you would need at least 95-100 inches (about eight and a half feet) of water column to bring it to a halt.

Maybe it is time to start shooting into stock tanks...:evil:
I find the cavitation quote interesting and it helps explain why WFNs penetrate deeply and can cause large crush cavities in the process. Another benefit is the bullet's capability to track straight, not change direction or tumble. As we witnessed with the 10mm/200gr WFNGC, it went through a lot of bone when a lot of bone got in the way.

The 357 mag/180gr WFNGC also performed very well through a large cow leg bone, perhaps its time to push the 125/158gr JSP designs and learn what they are capable of.

481

March 6, 2012, 01:01 PM

Nice test with decent numbers, now we can go ahead with the RA9B bone test once I pass the Android/Photobucket test plus the post pic test. Must be time for finals. :)

Have you run split times with this ammunition G17 vs P226?

No, not yet. Once we get warmer temps here I will.

Looking forward to the bone test with the RA9B- should be very interesting.

When it comes to the new smart phones, I give up. I am still looking for the wind-up crank that makes my computer run. :scrutiny:

2zulu1

March 12, 2012, 04:55 PM

Glad to see you are feeling better. Should be an interesting test. In my testing of 357 JSP loads for penetration I did find that through moose leg bones the 158 JSP out did any JHP that I tested in service calibers. The load tested was a Sierra handload to factory specs. Should be real close to the Federal. For an even tougher 158 grain JSP check out the Speer Unicore. Less exposed lead and Unicore construction make for a pretty tough bullet at handgun velocity. I have never tested the Remington 125 JSP but I hear it is loaded to match the velocity of the 125 JHP SD load. Should be pretty snappy.
How did the 158gr JSP compare with the 10mm/200gr XTP?

Hoping 481 will come along and ballpark 158gr JSP/1240fps soft tissue penetration, I'm guesstimating over 3.5' and less than 4'. :)

Since we've tested a few service caliber offerings, here's a 10 year old article written by Mas Ayoob and his bullets for caliber picks.

Since we're testing 9mm and 357mag on this page, the link is to the article's corresponding page.

FWIW, while breaking in a new 686P/4" over the weekend, I shot a duplicate 125gr factory load using 17.7grs/2400; not only was it loud, but I could see a muzzle flash under an afternoon Arizona sun. Also, I witnessed compressed air from the muzzle blast out to about 18", will try and figure out how to video this phenomenon. Night testing with this load gave off a very large orange colored flash under a bright full moon and it caused a neighbor who lives a 1/4 mile away to phone and ask what I was shooting?

Gotta love the mag.

481

March 12, 2012, 05:54 PM

Hoping 481 will come along and ballpark 158gr JSP/1240fps soft tissue penetration, I'm guesstimating over 3.5' and less than 4'. :)

Great tests guys.
It would be nice to see the results of those bullets after they are fired out of the more compact carry 9mm's,40's,etc. that are all the rage in the ccw world.
Would love to see how they would expand out of my Kahr PM9.

2zulu1

March 13, 2012, 07:25 PM

Great tests guys.
It would be nice to see the results of those bullets after they are fired out of the more compact carry 9mm's,40's,etc. that are all the rage in the ccw world.
Would love to see how they would expand out of my Kahr PM9.
You bring up some great points for testing compact pistols, currently the only 9s I own are a G17 and Browning Hi-Power. IIRC, we've tested the 135gr Gold Dot thru 3"/M64, but not the Ranger bonded or 158gr SWCHP. 200gr XTPs through a 2.5"/44spcl failed to expand and 165gr Gold Dots through a 4" Steyr performed very well. In 45auto all I have are 1911 Governments and a M25-2/6.5" and neither model is capable of velocities that can expand Sierra's 240gr JHC.

I can ask around, but living in a rather remote rural area there aren't many compact 9s, but there may be an XDC that can be used for testing. :)

FWIW, as much as I've carried the 1911/38 Super at my place, a M686P/4" has become my daily carry here and in town.

Ak.Hiker

March 15, 2012, 02:17 AM

Tested out some top end 357 Magnum loads for penetration out of my 3 1/16 inch SP 101. Solid 6 inch spruce log. The temp was about 10 degrees. The Speer 158 grain JSP loaded just below max hit hard and did not penetrate. This log was tough enough to stop a 255 grain Double Tap Keith 45 Colt load so this did not suprise me. The Keith 45 Colt load did make it to the back of the log and stopped in the back almost exiting. I then ran a 180 grain Grizzly cast load out of the little 357 and it easily cleared making a nice sized exit. Next up was a Buffalo Bore 180 grain hard cast. This load went right on through as well. It is a little bit hotter than the Grizzly and the bullet has a smaller meplate so I figured it would fully penetrate. Next up was some full power handloads with the Sierra 180 grain full profile bullet. These went right on through as well.

Ak.Hiker

March 15, 2012, 02:26 AM

How did the 158gr JSP compare with the 10mm/200gr XTP?
The 158 grain JSP in 357 magnum cut a straight hole through the bone. With out much expansion. The XTP's expanded so they had less penetration. I tried the 230 grain 45 ACP +P as well with similar results. I really like the XTP bullets and sure would not opt not to carry them based on my simple back woods testing. Of course we know if used on game the results would be different. However I sure was impressed with the 357 Magnum 158 grain JSP's ability to track straight when hitting bone.

2zulu1

March 19, 2012, 01:23 AM

XTPs are an excellent design as we've seen with the 125gr exploding a cow leg bone after penetrating a 14 ply semi truck tire.

Last week was hard on a pair of new handguns that I had planned on using for some new tests. The less than a week old M686P/4" had soft primer strikes after about 300 rounds. More seriously was a cracked SIG P220 SAO frame (600-700 round count) that ended up with a KB, stung the trigger finger a bit and left zebra stripe powder residue on my hands.

Anyway, Smith will take care of the 686 w/o any issues and the talk with Sig Sauer will be interesting. :)

2zulu1

August 13, 2012, 07:10 PM

In this front door encounter, not very much. Close distance here while going outside with the German Shepherd, heard a rattler and the GS followed the inside command and in doing so slid one of porch welcome mats over the rattler. Once the GS was inside, I slid the mat back and noticed the rattler was moving into a strike position.

Unable to get a clear vision of its head, I focused on the front part of its slithery movements as I drew my Hi Power and moved closer for the shot.

Most of my rattler head shots in the past have been done with 1911s in 38 Super, but the Hi Power felt great in my hand and it also points very well.
,,,
As this sequence of photos show, rattlers can continue to writhe about, even headless;

I know there are LEAs that have carried the HS designed bullet and have been pleased with its field performance. The only real world experience I know about the 230gr Hydra-shok occurred some years ago when an armed robbery suspect was shot in the shoulder and the bullet failed to expand during a failed robbery attempt. The suspect was subsequently extradited to Texas to face homicide charges.

In this bone test the Hydra-shok riveted to ~0.452", retained its mass and it would have performed/resulted as a through and through wound.

Compared to other designs we've tested against bone, there's not much to write about here.

Scipio Africanus

August 14, 2012, 03:15 AM

Again, thank you for this thread. This is really fantastic info and fun reading!

popper

August 14, 2012, 05:57 PM

So basically, any hard cast lead (> 12 BHN) would be thru & thru? The 2x4s I've accidentally hit just drilled through.

Dr.Rob

August 14, 2012, 06:33 PM

Is that a Mojave rattler? Never seen one so green.

2zulu1

August 16, 2012, 01:45 AM

So basically, any hard cast lead (> 12 BHN) would be thru & thru? The 2x4s I've accidentally hit just drilled through.
WFNs typically penetrate deeply, one example is the terminal performance of the 44 Special loaded with 250gr-260gr WFNs/Keith bullet on large hogs. Several years ago there was an article in "American Hand gunner" relating to a hog hunt that resulted in clean kills on two 500lb hogs using this combination.

I doubt the 230gr HS would have performed the same as the above 44 Special did on hogs, but it should be easy enough to calculate its penetration and that of Buffalo Bore's 255gr WFN in 45 auto.

2zulu1

August 16, 2012, 02:34 AM

Is that a Mojave rattler? Never seen one so green.
The green hue on the rattler is a very keen observation on your part. Without seeing its head I can't state for sure if it's a Mohave or Diamondback. As I understand it, tiny scales between the eyes mean it's a Diamondback and larger, less numbers, are attributive to Mohaves. Of critical importance is that the venom of the Mohave attacks both the central nervous AND blood systems.

For 7-8 buttons, the above rattler's combined shorter length than that of a Diamondback plus its green tint could be that of a Mohave, we have both in this part of Arizona.

Despite what college professors state, Mohaves have a well deserved reputation for being aggressive, like a Diamondback with an attitude problem.

I believe it's North Carolina that leads the nation in venomous snake bites, mostly from Copperheads. All varieties of rattlers in Arizona require immediate ER treatment if one is bitten. Although uncommon, we've had a couple of fatalities from rattler bites, one was a hiker from Germany who continued his hike out of mountains before going to the ER, the other was a stateside lady who didn't survive, even with treatment.

Having been bit by a Mohave from behind, it took a good two years to recover fully from the bite, and most of its venom was injected into my folded sock just over the top of a hiking boot.

Getting back on track, I have another pic that I'll need to upload, of a Diamondback that was shot in the heart area with a 38 Super, XTP IIRC, that didn't expand, but it stopped the DB immediately.

Dr.Rob

August 17, 2012, 12:19 AM

I had to ask because a hemotoxic rattlesnake that is also neurotoxic is pretty scary.

481

August 17, 2012, 01:07 AM

I doubt the 230gr HS would have performed the same as the above 44 Special did on hogs, but it should be easy enough to calculate its penetration and that of Buffalo Bore's 255gr WFN in 45 auto.

Sounds like a challenge to me. :scrutiny:

:)

2zulu1

August 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

I had to ask because a hemotoxic rattlesnake that is also neurotoxic is pretty scary.
It's also scary to me and a lot of others too, plus the fact that Mohaves are so darned aggressive. A friend and I were in the high desert looking for survey markers when he came across a coiled Mohave, jumping backwards and backpedaling as fast as he could, the Mohave chased him until until the last shot from his pistol scored a head shot.

About two hours later we went back to where the Mohave was and sliced it open in preparation to cook it, to our surprise, its heart was still beating w/o its head.

2zulu1

September 14, 2012, 04:10 PM

After doing a number of tests against a number of different types of intermediate barriers, this test epitomizes what the 9mm is capable of. The MV of this 147gr GD is slightly faster Double Tap's advertised MV.

This test was well outside the box and simulates the type of cover one may use at the work place or home. - redwood 4"x4" (door frame), washing machine lid (steel desk skirting), cow bone rib and water to capture the bullet should it penetrate these three barriers.

What I learned from this experiment is there are less protective places than I had previously thought, one being a door frame with its double 2"x4" construction.

Interestingly enough, the 147gr GD at this velocity tends to expand more through four layers of denim and penetrate less than Speer's sub sonic ammunition.

newbuckeye

September 16, 2012, 06:37 PM

Wow...thru a 4x4 and all that! Did you get a pic of the 4x4 also?

2zulu1

October 10, 2012, 05:18 PM

^^^^^^ I've looked and haven't come across it thus far.

btg3

October 10, 2012, 05:52 PM

Should any consideration be given to dead, dry, brittle, bone versus live bone? Or do we assume neglible difference?

Ak.Hiker

October 12, 2012, 12:07 AM

Dried bones are very hard on a bullet. I have seen FMJ's deform a bit on dried moose bones. I tested some 38 Special +P hardcast and FBI loads on a dried moose skull with wood as a backstop. The 158 grain lead HP had no problem punching through the skull but the bullet did deform quite a bit. I also tested a 158 grain 38 Special +P Keith load loaded by Double Tap. The hardcast went through the skull and most of the wood. I also tested a 200 grain DT 357 magnum hardcast. This one went through the shull, all of the wood as well as the backstop.

2zulu1

October 12, 2012, 11:31 PM

Should any consideration be given to dead, dry, brittle, bone versus live bone? Or do we assume neglible difference?
Page 2 begins excellent dialogue regarding bone GSW (gunshot wounds) from a medical viewpoint, plus there's excellent tests on moose bones and other barriers performed by AK Hiker.

Post #24 shows the performance difference between 10mm 200gr WFNGC and 200gr XTP through 4" of tough cow leg bone. Only a few fragments of the XTP bullet were found. :)

Ak.Hiker

October 13, 2012, 01:14 AM

the wood is probably what deformed the lhp. Either way I was pretty impressed with the old LSWHP +P load. It punched right through the skull with no problems. I wish I did have a soft backstop. Plus I only had one as it got mixed in with the hardcast 38 Special loads.

2zulu1

October 16, 2012, 05:29 PM

Autumn is a great time of year to live in Arizona, clear blue skies with temps in the low to mid 80s during the day, making it great for outdoor activities. It's also a time of year when we see increased mountain lion activity in the high desert valleys. From several years ago is this October lion print over my size 11 boot.

I'd finished grading some roads out back on the property and went on a walk, the next lion track was four feet away from the one in the pic. In less than an hour later this lion with a 5.5" print managed to travel down the same road as me w/o me seeing it. Since there's a lot of dense mesquite on that part of the property, I'll never know how close the two of us were..... and this wasn't the only time this has happened out back.

I've only experienced fleeting glimpses of lions and have heard them a number of times. My main goal is to see one of them long enough to snap a picture, but this goal has alluded my efforts thus far.

I realize lion attacks on humans are extremely rare, but I also realize that predator attacks on dogs is more common, whether from lions or javelina/coyotes, even raccoons.

While other platforms/calibers have been carried in anticipation of a rare lion encounter, seeing very large hog tracks have changed my carry options. One platform that's seen a lot of hip time has been the M29 Mountain, a comfortable carry that weighs approximately the same as a 1911 or loaded G20.

I've been experimenting with 200gr XTPs and N105 powder and I like what I've witnessed thus far. The 44/200gr sectional density is about the same as the 357/140gr, while the 44/210gr sectional density matches up with the 10mm/180gr. The 357mag/140gr JHPs traveling in the low 1500s have tested very well being very destructive. My goal with the 200gr XTP loaded with N105 powder was to attain the 1500fps level while reducing muzzle blast/flash and reduce felt recoil compared to other 44mag offerings.

That goal has been attained and it matches up with Hornady ammunition 1500fps/200gr XTP as measured from a 7.5" barrel. Well under max load the 4" Mountain has a 1471fps MV (ES 12fps, SD 04fps) while a M629/6.5" has a 1606fps MV (ES 25fps, SD 09fps).

Test gun was the M29 Mountain with a ~0.4" cow rib and water to capture the bullet.

The first two one gallon bottles simply exploded drenching me with water and hundreds of pulverized bone specs;

Several of those bone splinters were behind me and about 7 yards from the bottle. Bullet exited #3 bottle and was not recovered. That was my last cow rib, future bullet tests will be against larger and thicker cow bones.

FWIW, I now have a copy of the "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" book by Charles Schwartz and future penetration data will be posted using the Schwartz model rather than MacPherson's formulas. I don't have a scientific calculator yet, but forum member 481 has the new book, a good scientific calculator and he's agreed to do future calculations. His input on this thread has been top notch and greatly appreciated. :)

Odd Job

October 16, 2012, 06:30 PM

Nice tests.
If you gents can shoot a dry long bone (a cylindrical bone, shot in the mid-shaft area) that has been wrapped in several layers of cling film I would be interested in seeing the fracture pattern. I am looking to see if you get the same wedge fracture we see in live patients.

2zulu1

October 16, 2012, 07:07 PM

Nice tests.
If you gents can shoot a dry long bone (a cylindrical bone, shot in the mid-shaft area) that has been wrapped in several layers of cling film I would be interested in seeing the fracture pattern. I am looking to see if you get the same wedge fracture we see in live patients.
I have an intact leg bone.

A 125gr XTP caused this after penetrating a 14 ply semi truck tire, MV was in the upper 1400s from a 38 Super.

What do you suggest as a wrap to keep the fragmented bone from scattering?

Cycletroll

October 16, 2012, 08:47 PM

how about pantyhose?

2zulu1

October 16, 2012, 08:59 PM

how about pantyhose?
Good idea, do you have Joe Namath's phone number?

481

October 16, 2012, 10:35 PM

Good idea, do you have Joe Namath's phone number?

OH! :what:

481

October 16, 2012, 10:40 PM

FWIW, I now have a copy of the "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" book by Charles Schwartz and future penetration data will be posted using the Schwartz model rather than MacPherson's formulas. I don't have a scientific calculator yet, but forum member 481 has the new book, a good scientific calculator and he's agreed to do future calculations. His input on this thread has been top notch and greatly appreciated. :)

Yep, the book is right here next to my computer and my calculator is very hungry. It wants numbers. :D

Thanks, 2z1, without your work I'd have nothing to do. ;)

Thanks for keeping me busy! :)

Odd Job

October 17, 2012, 03:03 AM

I suggest cling film (clear sandwich wrap), and it needs to be documented exactly what surface was the impact point. I recommend making a dot on the bone with a permanent marker before wrapping it up.
I'll post a picture of what I am looking for in terms of fracture fragments, later.

2zulu1

October 17, 2012, 03:40 PM

Understand, but I'm not sure if the sandwich wrap is strong enough to hold the bone fragments in place, if I understand you correctly.

This frame capture is from a test I conducted some years ago, a Remington 240gr JSP impacting a thick wall cinder block.

In the above pic, the bullet hasn't impacted the berm, if it had there would be a considerable amount of clay/dirt dust in the air. Cinder block dust is traveling in three primary directions as the two liter bottle is being impacted. The two liter bottle was destroyed and there were hundreds of tiny pieces of plastic about 1mm in size strewn about on the ground, also, there was 2"x2" chunk of cinder block that was ejected at least 15 feet into the air, landing some 15 feet to the rear.

In bone tests I've observed similar phenomena as pictured above. In one test, a number of bone fragments/splinters were rapidly swirling in a one gallon bottle of water. I wasn't able to determine if the bone fragments had pierced the plastic or if the fragments were sucked in behind the bullet; however, there were also bone fragments in #2 bottle. Either way, the bone fragments in #2 bottle went through three layers of plastic and over 5.5" of water.

I have some heavy duty packing wrap that may or may not contain the leg bone fragments, it's a translucent green color.

Odd Job

October 17, 2012, 03:50 PM

My guess is the wrap (the cling film) will hold, three layers should be enough. Will be interesting to see...

481

October 17, 2012, 04:51 PM

2z1,

Why not just go with 5 layers of Saran, y'know, just to be safe. You could also place the bone in an open cardboard box with the open side facing the incoming round just in case some of the fragments/shards escape the wrap.

2zulu1

October 17, 2012, 05:11 PM

Here's the baseline test of the 200gr XTP in preparation for the leg bone test as suggested by Odd Job, I thank him in advance for bringing his medical expertise to this thread. Since I knew that I would get drenched by water, I let the bottles sit in the sun for a little while - good idea. :)

Nothing out of the ordinary, bullet came to rest in #4 bottle, a 5.4 grain lead fragment was located toward the rear of #3 bottle.

Good expansion ratio for the XTP while retaining 90+% of its original weight. It will interesting to see the penetration depth and crush cavity size for this load.

M29 Mountain 4".

2zulu1

October 17, 2012, 05:13 PM

2z1,

Why not just go with 5 layers of Saran, y'know, just to be safe. You could also place the bone in an open cardboard box with the open side facing the incoming round just in case some of the fragments/shards escape the wrap.
Good idea. :)

481

October 17, 2012, 06:55 PM

Here's the baseline test of the 200gr XTP in preparation for the leg bone test as suggested by Odd Job, I thank him in advance for bringing his medical expertise to this thread. Since I knew that I would get drenched by water, I let the bottles sit in the sun for a little while - good idea. :)

Nothing out of the ordinary, bullet came to rest in #4 bottle, a 5.4 grain lead fragment was located toward the rear of #3 bottle.

One of the regulars on the leverguns forum has tested various rifle rounds. He's a guide in Texas, and has compiled a list of cartridges and their performance on game. He's used fresh dead cows also, for penetration testing. Interestingly, when he used fresh dead cows (some stacked in drums) to catch bullets, he found that the bullets tended to penetrate about double what they did in live animals. I found that interesting.

Have you shot any bones with 22's? I've found that range bones can be holed reliably with 22 fired from rifles. I didn't test expansion, was just shooting the bones, and was surprised that they always shot through, even on the knob ends.

There are some fairly fresh deer and elk bones out in the hills where I dog walk. I'll see if there's some leg bones. I'll ask around and see if anyone has fresh bones also. Will try the saran wrapped bones and see what happens, or, I may be able to get the whole lower leg, skin still intact if that would be better?

2zulu1

October 18, 2012, 04:35 PM

This morning's test went well, bullet was captured in #4 bottle. High Performance packing tape, four layers, from 3M was wrapped around the leg bone. Small fragments of bone along with a piece of tape were found in what remained of #1 bottle.

Given the toughness of the bone, test went well, even with the jacket separation.

Going back to the baseline test, the XTP 'used' up about half of its 900 ft/lbs of energy in the first 3" of penetration, more than most of the service caliber ammunition offerings. :)

2zulu1

October 18, 2012, 04:43 PM

Very interesting thread! I've enjoyed reading it.

One of the regulars on the leverguns forum has tested various rifle rounds. He's a guide in Texas, and has compiled a list of cartridges and their performance on game. He's used fresh dead cows also, for penetration testing. Interestingly, when he used fresh dead cows (some stacked in drums) to catch bullets, he found that the bullets tended to penetrate about double what they did in live animals. I found that interesting.

Have you shot any bones with 22's? I've found that range bones can be holed reliably with 22 fired from rifles. I didn't test expansion, was just shooting the bones, and was surprised that they always shot through, even on the knob ends.

There are some fairly fresh deer and elk bones out in the hills where I dog walk. I'll see if there's some leg bones. I'll ask around and see if anyone has fresh bones also. Will try the saran wrapped bones and see what happens, or, I may be able to get the whole lower leg, skin still intact if that would be better?
Haven't tried 22, but that's interesting performance results against bone. In a "knobby" test of a 10mm/200XTP/1200s, pulverized the bone and only a few small bullet fragments were found.

These large dried out cow bones are tough on JHPs.

Looking forward to seeing your tests. :)

Odd Job

October 18, 2012, 05:37 PM

Thanks, that's very interesting, doesn't have the same fracture pattern as I would expect in a "wet" bone. Could be one anomaly though, would need a whole lot of untouched bones to be shot, to confirm.

481

October 18, 2012, 07:19 PM

This morning's test went well, bullet was captured in #4 bottle. High Performance packing tape, four layers, from 3M was wrapped around the leg bone. Small fragments of bone along with a piece of tape were found in what remained of #1 bottle.

Given the toughness of the bone, test went well, even with the jacket separation.

2z1,

A quick note before I offer up the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test. Because it is not possible to reliably predict/estimate the velocity lost by the test bullet as it passed through the bone, an impact velocity is impossible to detemine. Rather than "fudge" a number, I've simply used the muzzle velocity provided by 2z1, so please bear this in mind when looking at the analysis of the test.

Pushed to lay a number on it, I'd "guesstimate" the loss (given the bullet's behavior in the water after passing through the bone) as being no less than about 75 fps -100 fps- but even with that reduction in speed, penetration decreases by only about 2/3rds of an inch and a couple of grams of crushed gelatin/soft tissue. Not worth worrying about, IMHO.

All that aside, here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test:

Going back to the baseline test, the XTP 'used' up about half of its 900 ft/lbs of energy in the first 3" of penetration, more than most of the service caliber ammunition offerings. :)

It is interesting that you mention this- it is a very neat insight.

The Schwartz bullet penetration model's equation for calculating the "residual velocity" of a bullet (page 19 of "Quantitative Ammunition Selection") indicates that the bullet in the baseline test would've expended one half of its kinetic energy (960.77 fpe) by the time that it reached a penetration depth of 2.795 inches in gelatin/soft tissue- that's the KE possessed by a .40S&W 165 gr. JHP (1150 fps) at the muzzle. :what:

Of course, what it really important is what the bullet does with that KE.

After seeing Odd Job's comment, I am thinking that-

1) if Malamute can hustle up some fresh bone, we'll probably see the sort of fracture pattern that Odd Job is looking for

As we've witnessed before, dried bone is a tough intermediate barrier and this 'double' bone experiment is a great example. From the angled deformation of the XTP we see a snapshot in time of what the bone angle was when impacted. The top of the bone's center axis was tilted rearward and rotated slightly, what I referred to as a compound angle. IIRC, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the twist rate for the 44mag is 1x20", meaning there was minimal bullet rotation as it penetrated <4" of bone leaving asymmetrical holes.

Looking at the locations of the bullet holes in plastic water bottles, this bullet, despite its deformed shape, travelled straight and true in relationship to the M29's bore axis; from an eyeballing perspective.

By the way, did you notice the green cottonwood leaves and blue sky in the last picture?

481

October 20, 2012, 01:12 AM

By the way, did you notice the green cottonwood leaves and blue sky in the last picture?

Yeah, that's it.

Rub it in. :rolleyes:

:D

2zulu1

October 22, 2012, 03:18 PM

The current issue of American Rifleman has an article about using the Super as a personal defense caliber, albeit from very expensive Wilson and Les Baer carry models. In addition there's an article about the Coonan 1911/357mag.

In previous tests on this thread we've seen some results of using the 357mag/125gr XTP bullet in the Super.

Over the years I've witnessed some very violent bullet impacts against various types of intermediate barriers shooting different calibers and bullet designs. In one such test I handloaded an old tech 147gr Winchester JHP in the Super to ~1280fps, well beyond the bullet's velocity design. This 147gr loading isn't very far removed from factory 357mag/158gr/1240fps hollow points.

Using a 1.5mm hard steel barrier, five one gallon water bottles were placed behind the steel plate and on top of a 1/2" section of pressed board. The pressed wood was wet from two previous tests that were conducted in other calibers.

In the below pic is a gaping hole in the pressed wood caused by an explosive impact on #1 bottle after first penetrating the hard steel plate, seen on the left side of the pic.

Bullet exited #5 bottle and was not recovered, but given the violent bullet impact on the first two bottles, it appears that the bullet jacket petals folded inward upon impacting the steel plate.

Getting back to bone tests, there's still the other knob end of the leg bone that can be used in another bone test, but I haven't decided upon a caliber/bullet selection yet. I have a pretty good assortment of service caliber ammunition and handloads to choose from and I'm looking for suggestions from y'all. :)

RBid

October 23, 2012, 12:31 PM

This

Thread

Is

AWESOME!!!!!!

I'm 35, and I feel like a 5 year old on a candy store shopping spree!

481

October 23, 2012, 01:31 PM

Yeah, 2z1's tests, besides being very informative, are a lot of fun to look at.

:)

2zulu1

October 23, 2012, 07:12 PM

These tests are interesting to conduct and share the results with like minded enthusiasts. This time of year is when we see increased mountain lion activity and I've noticed increased signs the last week or so, scat and scratches in dirt. Also, I'm seeing widespread rooting from javelina, and today a large hog track and fresh bobcat tracks on a road out back.

This time of year is also change my "home" carry to a M29 Mountain, it's a very comfortable OWB carry and 44mag is a great brush caliber when loaded with appropriate hardcast bullets.

I haven't found the kill yet, but finding this part of a heifer leg outback escalates the seriousness of situational awareness to the next higher level.

Once a lion becomes acclimated to being around humans the odds of having an encounter increases, so far it's only been late at night using a strong Streamlight flashlight. The last night encounter was at 80 yards and its yellow eyes were above the 32" range grass it was standing in.

I expect the rancher that lost the heifer will contact Game & Fish, unfortunate for the lion, but the trade off is the safety of young children who live in the area.

I can go outside a thousand times and nothing eventful happens, then things happen in streaks.

If 481 would be so kind, what is the expected penetration of a 44 caliber, 255gr WFN, with a 0.350" meplat @1200fps?

481

October 23, 2012, 08:44 PM

If 481 would be so kind, what is the expected penetration of a 44 caliber, 255gr WFN, with a 0.350" meplat @1200fps?

Sure. Here at "Calculator Abuse Central", I am always happy to comply with such a request. :p

A .44 caliber, 255gr WFN, with a 0.350" meplat @1200fps will penetrate to a maximum depth of 40.85 inches in soft tissue.

If those cats out there are wearing 16 ga steel plate to make you look bad :evil:, a .44 caliber, 255gr WFN @1200fps will pass through it with and exit it at 1047fps- that's enough to go through another 37.66 inches of soft tissue.

2zulu1

October 24, 2012, 01:18 PM

Thank you, that's a lot of penetration given that the meplat is basically a 9mm caliber, I'll have to upload some pics for a side by side comparison.

The metal penetration calculation is more relevant than it appears, but to what extent I can't say with certainty. Since recent mountain lion activity here has been on my mind a bit, what many people don't realize is that a mature lion is capable of a 20ft vertical leap and a 40ft horizontal leap. With leaves on mesquite, there are a number of places out back that one can't even see 10 feet. When the leaves drop the visual distance will increase depending on the density of the branches.

If branches become an intermediate barrier, it's good to have a ballpark idea as to penetration depth because the bullet impact angle will undoubtedly be less than optimal. I don't know how many inches of mesquite equals 1.5mm of a hard steel plate, but we can run the numbers for double and triple plates to determine a 'worse' case scenario for bullet penetration through soft tissue. What we can also learn is that some calibers can be excluded from trail carry in areas where branches are present and the bullet may need to penetrate branches, but also bone before reaching vital organs.

It may be interesting to add branches to our bone tests to get an idea of what does and doesn't work in wooded areas. One of the biggest hurdles to overcome will be keeping the bone in place during bullet impact against branches.

Thoughts?

481

October 24, 2012, 07:17 PM

Thank you, that's a lot of penetration given that the meplat is basically a 9mm caliber, I'll have to upload some pics for a side by side comparison.

The metal penetration calculation is more relevant than it appears, but to what extent I can't say with certainty. Since recent mountain lion activity here has been on my mind a bit, what many people don't realize is that a mature lion is capable of a 20ft vertical leap and a 40ft horizontal leap. With leaves on mesquite, there are a number of places out back that one can't even see 10 feet. When the leaves drop the visual distance will increase depending on the density of the branches.

If branches become an intermediate barrier, it's good to have a ballpark idea as to penetration depth because the bullet impact angle will undoubtedly be less than optimal. I don't know how many inches of mesquite equals 1.5mm of a hard steel plate, but we can run the numbers for double and triple plates to determine a 'worse' case scenario for bullet penetration through soft tissue. What we can also learn is that some calibers can be excluded from trail carry in areas where branches are present and the bullet may need to penetrate branches, but also bone before reaching vital organs.

It may be interesting to add branches to our bone tests to get an idea of what does and doesn't work in wooded areas. One of the biggest hurdles to overcome will be keeping the bone in place during bullet impact against branches.

Thoughts?

(In my best Don Adams/"Get Smart" voice) Would you believe that I have a bullet penetration model for various wood species and other structural materials?

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf

That, and several other ballistic/material penetration models, can be found in Chapter 5 (5-10 through 5-14) of the document linked above.

Who needs to guess? :D

Ak.Hiker

October 25, 2012, 12:10 AM

I have done penetration tests with the 255 grain WFN 44 magnum loaded to about 1200 and they easily penetrated 7 inches of dry spruce. I have also found that the Sierra 250 grain FPJ at the same velocity in the 44 is another great standard weight bullet for deep penetration.

481

October 25, 2012, 10:57 AM

I have done penetration tests with the 255 grain WFN 44 magnum loaded to about 1200 and they easily penetrated 7 inches of dry spruce. I have also found that the Sierra 250 grain FPJ at the same velocity in the 44 is another great standard weight bullet for deep penetration.

Ak.Hiker,

That is pretty cool. :cool:

The penetration model for structural materials and wood that I got from the DoD document linked above says that your .429 caliber 255 gr. WFN @ 1200fps would produce a maximum penetration depth of 9.17 inches in dry pine (closest I could get to spruce so it'll have to do :() and would exit that 7 inch thick piece of dry spruce at a speed of 172.15fps so it seems the model agrees with you. :D

I know that one instance is hardly an "unshakeable confirmation" of the model, but it is encouraging. :)

2zulu1

October 26, 2012, 02:21 AM

Is that with bark attached or without? :p

Well, some critter took the hoof and the breeze we had yesterday also washed out my boot prints from two days ago. Came across another track, although somewhat muted, this is a big cat. It took a lot of force to break off that piece of leg bone.

481

October 26, 2012, 10:28 AM

Is that with bark attached or without? :p

I am sorry. I don't have a model for that. :D

2zulu1

October 28, 2012, 02:59 AM

Just wanted to take a quick moment to show the size relationship between two calibers. For those who don't handload or have a 44mag, here's what a 300 grain Sierra JSP bullet looks like compared to a loaded 9mm/147gr XTP.

While factory 147gr XTPs have a MV of ~1,000fps, the handloaded 300gr JSP out of this M29 has an MV that exceeds 1200fps and is capable of taking down anything in this part of Arizona. The slightly longer than SAAMI spec COAL fits in the S&W cylinder safely.

This nickel plated M29 is a BBQ get together conversation piece and will be carried at this year's Thanksgiving festivities. The backyard shooting range will be full of activity, including young people. :)

Ak.Hiker

October 29, 2012, 01:10 AM

Those 300 grain Sierra bullets are very tough. Even at 1050 or so they hit hard and offer deep penetration.

Dr.Rob

October 29, 2012, 04:58 PM

Prvi's 300 gr 44 mag load is pretty similar to that bullet. Just less exposed bullet, no channelure. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279197&highlight=privi+300

It's amazing just how much lead you are throwing downrange in a handgun.

That's some stout stuff in a pistol.

2zulu1

November 1, 2012, 04:03 PM

Prvi's 300 gr 44 mag load is pretty similar to that bullet. Just less exposed bullet, no channelure. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279197&highlight=privi+300

It's amazing just how much lead you are throwing downrange in a handgun.

That's some stout stuff in a pistol.
That Privi ammunition looks very promising for those who carry carry the 44mag. For the handloader, the 44mag may be the most versatile handgun caliber that delivers top tier performance in a number of different situations.

I load the 44 to levels to achieve very good bullet performance and controllable double action split times. Experimenting with different powders, and I'm not finished with load development, the above 300gr JSP is clocking 1075fps out of a M29 Mountain. This is a very deep penetrating bullet that's easy on the hands.

The M29 Mountain is a very comfortable carry, weighs in at approximately 39 ounces, has a tapered barrel, narrow top rib and rounded cylinder edges for easier holstering;

In the above pic, the light tan colored range grass is holster height. Below pic shows how visibility is continuing to decrease. Keep in mind that rattlers are still out this time of year, in fact, a neighbor's horse was bit on the head while it was grazing. The vet came and drained a lot of fluid from the swollen bite area, vet also stated that it was common for animals to develop heart issues after rattler bites.

Shortly after snapping the above pic, I heard a female mountain lion about a couple hundred yards to the left, and a barking dog ceased barking. This is only a few yards away from where the heifer leg was found, pic in an above post.

Next is a game trail that leads into high density mesquite, size of the entrance would be comfortable for javelina, bobcats and coyotes etc;

In this area of the property are a number of game trails that also by their very nature, attract predators. It appears that there are two mountain lions whose territories overlap here, a male with its 5.5" footprints and a female with her 3.5" tracks. I've noticed those two sized tracks for the last five years, they typically begin this time of year as the temps cool down.

Most of the kills I've noticed have been done by the female, a 200# mastiff that was leading a feral dog pack, a coyote, four javelina during a period of three days and others that I don't know which one did what.

The male tracks were noticed about the time the heifer was killed, there was also a black lab that was killed not far from the heifer leg. All this has happened over the last five years at this part of the property. There were also three Great Danes (two large and a smaller one) that were roaming in this area. One of the Great Danes was hit by a car a out two miles from me and the remaining two were never seen again after the male was sighted.

Given all this, and we haven't talked about hogs, below is a few bullets that come to mind for personal protection in this environment;

Some years ago a young man was out with his dog hiking on family ranch when his dog was attacked by a 250# black bear. During the ensuing mêlée, with less than optimal shot angles, the young man emptied his 41mag on the bear to stop the fight.

As a dog owner who lives fairly close to wilderness areas, I like the choice of hardcast bullets that are available to the handloader. :)

Malamute

November 4, 2012, 10:20 AM

Have you had hogs invade the area? I'd heard they were moving westward, there werent any in the state when I lived in N Az years ago. Hope the State has an open season on them like varmints.

A guy up this way killed a sow grizzly that jumped him. He used a 41 mag with 210 gr factory hollow points. 2 body hits, they were pass throughs, and the bear was DRT. I think it was about 300#

BTW, I shot a few deer and elk bones with the 22 rifle. The deer bones were shattered clear through when shot in the center. I didnt shoot the ends, the bones still had the skin on (lower legs) and were a bit smelly. The elk bones shot through on one (shattered a section out of it), and the ends seemed to stop the bullets. I was using hollow points. Will take some solids out next time and see if theres a diference. The elk bones have been out there for a few weeks. Will ask around and see if anyone has fresh elk bones I can do more shooting at, and with other things

2zulu1

November 18, 2012, 05:22 PM

Wouldn't say we've been invaded by hogs in this part of Arizona , but I've seen hog tracks including those of a large boar; Game and Fish states there are feral hogs in this part of the state. There are also hogs in the Arizona strip, Mt Trumble area.

FWIW, after a 44mag, 50 round double action session at the range, I'm back to carrying the 357mag at my place. :)

481

November 18, 2012, 10:17 PM

FWIW, after a 44mag, 50 round double action session at the range, I'm back to carrying the 357mag at my place. :)

Rattled yer teeth too much?

:D

2zulu1

November 19, 2012, 01:47 AM

Rattled yer teeth too much?

:D
That's not all it rattled, did a lot of movement while shooting and the groups opened up a bit when I began pushing the split times. Didn't help that two of the powders had sticky chambers. :)

Did a 357mag test last week, thought I'd try the factory Remington 125gr SJHP, it chronographs;

Thanks to forum member 481 for testing the Barnes expander slug and posting some great pics of this innovative shotgun ammunition design and construction. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=688558

There are also OO and #4 buck penetration/crush cavity numbers for comparison between the the three types of ammunition using the Schwartz and MacPherson models.

Also, I now have Hornady's Critical Duty 135gr +P ammunition to test and I'm looking forward to see how this new bullet design performs against different intermediate barriers. Winter weather here, low 50s and rain off/on. :)

481

December 16, 2012, 07:08 PM

Thanks to forum member 481 for testing the Barnes expander slug and posting some great pics of this innovative shotgun ammunition design and construction. :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=688558

There are also OO and #4 buck penetration/crush cavity numbers for comparison between the the three types of ammunition using the Schwartz and MacPherson models.

Also, I now have Hornady's Critical Duty 135gr +P ammunition to test and I'm looking forward to see how this new bullet design performs against different intermediate barriers. Winter weather here, low 50s and rain off/on. :)

As always, I look forward to your tests, 2zulu1- always very well done.

Can't wait to see how the Critical Duty line up holds up to what you've got in store for it. :evil:

pps

December 16, 2012, 11:08 PM

I shot some .380 Barnes (buffalo bore), .380 critical defense and some 140 grain Barnes in .357 (out of a 2" snub nose) through bone embedded into ballistics gel.

The barnes did great through the bone, and some of the petals were really beaten back. The critical defense turned to powder/fragments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk

Skip to about 10 minutes if you don't want to suffer through my crappy videography,

2zulu1

December 17, 2012, 01:40 PM

It must be a challenge to design a 380 caliber bullet that will penetrate through intermediate barriers and reach vital organs.

Here's a Critical Defense ammunition test that took the 357mag, 125gr FTX bullet well beyond its intended design parameters. This 125gr FTX bullet expanded w/i a 4x4, this is a tough bullet design/construction;

Gel data (FBI protocol) and photos can be viewed at Hornady's website, so, let's see how this ammunition performs against dried out range cow bones. Not satisfied with a rib or typical leg bone test, how about a leg bone test at the knuckle joint?

This is a tough bullet design, core weight was 71.4grs and 104.2grs with the jacket.

With its polymer hollow cavity plug, this ammunition from Hornady is worth further testing IMO. :)

Ak.Hiker

December 19, 2012, 11:16 PM

Dried bone sure gives bullets a real workout. I have tested out several expanding bullets on dried moose bones and found that the Barnes X bullet as well as the Nosler Partition Gold really hold together.

2zulu1

December 21, 2012, 02:07 PM

Thanks for sharing your moose tests. :)

I have X bullets for the 38 Super and 45 auto, 180gr Partitions for the 357mag, but haven't tested them against large bones. I've thought about loading up the 140gr X bullet for the G20, but it's one of those projects that hasn't happened yet.

Do you have any feedback on other copper only bullet companies?

A few days ago, in between rain storms, I came across large, as in really large, boar tracks while walking on the property. I've encountered domestic sows w/o incident, but I don't know what behavior to expect from a large boar. In any event, 10mm/200gr WFNs are current carry just in case. I can go for walks thousands of times without incident, but sooner or later an incident will occur and thus far I've correctly anticipated the correct caliber and bullet weight for the situation. Fortunately, there are a number of calibers and bullet designs to choose from for town and home carry.

Ak.Hiker

September 26, 2013, 01:07 AM

Used my 2.75 inch Ruger Security Six. I wanted to compare the Double Tap 158 grain Nosler JHP to the Federal 125 grain JHP. Both bullets have quite a bit of exposed lead and both are full power loads. I lined up four 4X4's with a sheet of plexiglas between board 3 and 4. For fun I also ran some hard cast and a 158 grain JSP as well. The 125 grain Federal penetrated two boards and the exit on the second board was dramatic. The DT 158 grain Nosler JHP penetrated 2 boards and lodged fully expanded about half way through the third board. The exit on the second board was just as dramatic as the 125 grain Federal. Very similar performance with a little more penetration. The 158 grain Speer Unicore went through 3 boards and punched a big hole in the plexiglas. The 180 grain DT hardcast also penetrated 3 boards cut through the plexiglas and lodged in the fourth board. The last two loads tested were both 200 grain hardcast. One from CorBon and one from Doubletap. Both 200 grain loads went through all 4 boards and the plexiglas making a clean exit on the back of the fourth board.

Malamute

September 26, 2013, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by 2zulu1

Haven't tried 22, but that's interesting performance results against bone. In a "knobby" test of a 10mm/200XTP/1200s, pulverized the bone and only a few small bullet fragments were found.

These large dried out cow bones are tough on JHPs.

Looking forward to seeing your tests.

Sorry I missed following up last fall, I caught a dose of the flu that turned into pneumonia, I didn't get out in the hills much for a while. Will keep my eyes open for bones again, they turn up now and then.

Glad to see this thread resurrected.

2zulu1

September 30, 2013, 03:06 PM

Those 158 JHPs are nice, and wicked out of a 6". :)

Every monsoon season, summer rain July-early Sept, has a way of skewing everyday life here. Critters can, and often do incritterable things that can be life threatening. Shovels are placed near porch doors for those times when it's not advisable to shoot rattlers coiled on concrete slabs, but using shovels is a messy way to dispatch this type of vermin.

During July there were a pair of violent T-storms hours apart, when the rain and wind subsided, a neighbor (over a mile away) found his two Rotts dead outside. It appears that they were killed by a single mountain lion, we don't know for sure because all tracks were washed away. That same morning about 0430, a neighbor witnessed a very large black bear running about three miles from my home.

It doesn't stop there, a rancher I know some distance away, came home to find that a black had been inside while they were away. A few nights later while preparing for bed, a black bear ripped a screen off the bedroom window and began climbing inside, the rancher got his .357mag off the night stand and shot it in the top of its head. It was about a two foot shot, the JHP did not penetrate the bear's skull, but the bear did fall back and walked away from the home. Because of the high numbers of bears in the area, tracking hounds failed to find this particular bear.

I haven't seen much in the way of feral dog pack activity, but one neighbor encountered an aggressive pit bull breed while walking not far from my home. He shot at it but missed. A few days later this pit bull pack killed a goat, the pack has not been seen since and it's believed they are no longer alive.

Talking with the rancher who had the bear confrontation reminded me that it's always best to train for the 1% scenarios, for me this now includes bears, in addition to hogs, dogs, coyotes, lions and rattlers to name a few. Plus, there's always the threat of two legged social miscreants at any time of day or night.

As a result of the rancher's encounter, I've gone to 10mm for carry. What separates the 10mm from the .357mag and .38Super is the 200gr WFN @~1200fps. I ordered a custom 1911 in January (it should be here soon) because of potential hog encounters, now, everything is on the table.

It's been an interesting and busy year thus far, ammunition testing has really helped in bullet selection for carry, regardless of predator size. :)

When the 1911 arrives, I have some Double Tap 10mm ammunition to test, Barnes 125/155gr JHPs.

Ak.Hiker

October 4, 2013, 03:32 AM

I did a quick test with my Glock 29 10mm. Same set up as the 357 test. The 200 grain Hornady XTP factory load went through two boards and lodged in the third. Similar penetration to the 158 grain 357 JHP tested. Just not as dramatic with less expansion. I also ran some Double Tap 200 grain FMJ loads. One with the Hornady bullet and the other with the Montana Gold bullet. Both FMJ loads went through all 4 boards and the plexiglass. Also ran a 300 grain Double Tap 45 Colt loaded with the Speer Unicore bullet. This one penetrated three boards plus the plexiglass and lodged in the fourth board. It expanded a bit with full weight retention. I really like this load in my 4 5/8 inch Blackhawk.

Malamute

October 4, 2013, 12:02 PM

... a black bear ripped a screen off the bedroom window and began climbing inside, the rancher got his .357mag off the night stand and shot it in the top of its head. It was about a two foot shot, the JHP did not penetrate the bear's skull,...

Any idea what bullet weight?

HP's aren't usually good for penetration on large live animal bones, or even on tough bodies. I knew a guy in N Az that shot a black bear from a foot away with a 357 with HP's that was down, it didn't penetrate through the fat into the body cavity. I think he said it penetrated about 3".

2zulu1

October 25, 2013, 03:50 PM

I apologize for the delay in responding, the rancher had his .357mag loaded with 110gr JHPs, not my choice, but adequate in the smuggling/trafficking area we live in. We spoke about using hard cast bullets, he casts his own, but he simply didn't have the time to make the ammunition change.

When the temps cool down to outer clothing temps I like the mag loaded with 180gr WFNGCs or 173gr Keith bullet, plus 158gr JHPs on speedloaders. The mag is very adaptable to living in rural environments.

Anyone practice with the 155gr Missouri Bullet hardcast in 10mm, what powder?

ATLDave

October 25, 2013, 04:06 PM

I've loaded up some 155 gr's Missouri LSWC's in front of AA#7. That turns out to be kind of smoky. Right now, I'm trying to get it downloaded to IPSC major levels.

Arizona_Mike

October 26, 2013, 12:54 PM

What is the reason for this testing? I'd talk to a butcher at my local game processing shop about some fresh bones.