He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Dear Peter -- Words are tentatively useful in that they can inspire action. But some emphasis has to be placed on the word "tentative" since plenty of people would rather hoard the words than get to work.

Maybe it's a bit like the old Buddhist metaphor of the fellow who has been shot by the arrow and lies dying on the ground asking who shot the arrow, what kind of wood the arrow is made out of, what bird provided the feathers and so forth... when the important part would be to get the arrow out.

Those with a meditation practice, practice it and in so doing, withdraw the arrow bit by bit. Those without a meditation practice are wise to find one and then practice it. In this way, experience brings to life what currently is merely inspirational words on a page. Don't worry -- you can trust the words you love; they won't steer you wrong. But it's not enough to imagine you've got it right when you've got the words... that would just be an invitation to additional blood-stained arrows and a more ornate expression of uncertainty, don't you think?

Last edited by genkaku on Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hi Peter allthere is a Buddhist story, zen I think about not focusing too much on the tip of the finger when it is pointing to the moon, quite a famous story I have heard it used by each tradition but I would add don't focus on the moon to much either as the finger may not be pointing at it!

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

I think disparaging words without any qualification, as you've done in your first post, may turn someone away from learning the Buddha's teaching. Then a great disservice has been done.

No moon, no finger, no practice, just more suffering.

Dear Peter -- Disparaging words, like words of wondrous praise, excite attention. But whether disparaging or wondrous, it is the attention that counts, not the words. Making a full-time practice of praise or blame would be equally off the mark ... it would just betoken another hiding place for the spiritually uncertain. Sometimes there are soothing words, sometimes there are irritating words ... but without suffering, where would so-called enlightenment be? without suffering, how could an end to suffering have any useful meaning?

Kindness is good. But to take some imagined goodness as a refuge is a recipe for more suffering, I'd say.

First you disparage the Dhamma, now the rest of the Triple Gem as well?

Peter -- I would be most grateful if you would tell me what you imagine the Dhamma to be.

Then I would be grateful to know if imagining the Dhamma to be something is really the Dhamma.

No disrespect intended to you or some imagined Dhamma, but I think that any position on what is or is not true is something that the Triple Gem encourages us all most persuasively to investigate right down to the root. Praise and blame just won't cut it.

Please don't believe me. Just find the willingness to take a closer look.

You haven't answered my question (What's wrong with encouragement?). I take it you have a good reason not to, so for what it's worth, and with all due respect, read this.

You seem to be replacing one extreme (attachment to goodness) with another extreme (aversion to praise-blame).I say the intention comes before words and associated feelings.Calling the Buddha-Dhamma "imagined" is disrespectful and does not agree with what you said earlier ("No disrespect intended"), so what is your true intention?

And by the way:"Now, byblaming what is blamable and praising what is praiseworthy, the Blessed One is an investigating/analytical/discriminating teacher (vibhajja-vadī) and is not one-sided in his teaching"~ AN X.94 ~

First you disparage the Dhamma, now the rest of the Triple Gem as well?

Peter -- I would be most grateful if you would tell me what you imagine the Dhamma to be.

The Dhamma of the Triple Gem is the teaching of the Buddha.

Then I would be grateful to know if imagining the Dhamma to be something is really the Dhamma.

It is where a Buddhist starts his investigation. The only way to know if the Dhamma (teachings of the Buddha as we've received them) is in fact the Dhamma (the way to end suffering) is to learn, read, hear the Dhamma and then investigate it.

But if one starts by disparaging learning, reading, and hearing then one doesn't even get started. And for what reason? Pride? Stubbornness? One would do well to ask themselves this question.

No disrespect intended to you or some imagined Dhamma, but I think that any position on what is or is not true is something that the Triple Gem encourages us all most persuasively to investigate right down to the root. Praise and blame just won't cut it.

Praise and blame is how the Buddha gets us started in the right direction. And by "us" I mean Buddhists. The Dhamma (teachings of the Buddha) is nothing other than "This is worth investigating; that isn't worth investigating."

thecap wrote:You seem to be replacing one extreme (attachment to goodness) with another extreme (aversion to praise-blame).

I have said something similar many times in the past.One can say "This teaching is true and so bears no investigating."One can say "This teaching may or may not be true and so bears no investigating."Neither one is Buddhadhamma.Buddhadhamma is investigating the words of the Buddha to see for oneself if they are true.

Dear thecap -- Apologies. Nothing wrong with encouragement at all. We all need it. But for my money, we all need to be aware as well of the limitations that encouragements can invite if they are taken too literally ... or as if those encouragements were actual answers to our deepest prayers.

Here, as a printed-word encouragement, is a small poem or sutra by Dai O Kokushi. To my mind, it wouldn't matter if Joe the Plumber had written the words or whether the author ascribed to Mahayana, Therevada or any other sort of Buddhism. What matters is whether those words are true AND the willingness of any particular reader to investigate/actualize/realize whatever truth they point to:

ON ZEN

There is a reality even prior to heaven and earth;It has no form, much less a name;Eyes fail to see it; it has no voice for ears to detect;To call it Mind or Buddha violates its nature,For it then becomes like a visionary flower in the air;It is not Mind, nor Buddha;Absolutely quiet, and yet illuminating in a mysterious way,It allows itself to be perceived only by the clear-eyed.It is Dharma truly beyond form and soud;It is Tao, having nothing to do with words.Wishing to entice the blind,The Buddha has playfully let words escape his golden mouth;Heaven and earth are ever since filled with entangling briars.

O my good worthy friends gathered here,If you desire to listen to the thunderous voice of the Dharma,Exhaust your words, empty your thoughts,For then you may come to recognize this One Essence.