Wednesday, August 31, 2011

Jay Sebring by Katie...

Birth: October 10, 1933 - Death: August 9, 1969

Born Thomas John Kummer in Alabama, and raised outside of Detroit, Michigan, Kummer served in the US Navy for four years and was a veteran of the Korean War. While in the Navy, he developed the hairstyling skills that would make him famous. When he arrived in L.A., Thomas changed his name to Jay Sebring - the J for the first initial of his middle name and Sebring from the famous Florida race track. According to some accounts, he was the first person to open a male hair salon in the country, and his cutting edge style of men's hair care attracted big name clients. At Kirk Douglas's request, Jay was the stylist for the movie "Spartacus." In 1960, Jay married a model by the name of Cami. They divorced in 1965. In 1964, Jay took martial arts lessons from master Bruce Lee. Jay took a tape of Bruce to producer William Dozier (of Batman) and Dozier signed Lee to be on the TV show "Green Hornet," which made Bruce a household name. Also in 1964, Jay met actress Sharon Tate at a Hollywood party and they began dating. Upon Jay's divorce, conflicting accounts abound of whether Jay proposed to Sharon, and others that state that Sharon wanted to get married and Jay was hesitant. In early May 1969 Sebring opened a new salon at 629 Commercial Street in San Francisco and a champagne reception followed. Guests included Abigail Folger and her mother, Inez, as well as Paul Newman and his wife, Joanne Woodward. Sebring's business enterprises continued to flourish. He also started Sebring International, a company that is still in business today (run by Jay's close friends) which sells men's hair products.Jay once said: “I took a good look at my friends, both the males and females. The girls looked great- but why shouldn't they since they had all kinds of powders, paints, dyes, sprays and ointments to aid them? But, the poor men- what could they do to better their looks? Buy new clothes or adopt a new hair design!! Well, clothes were no problem- there are plenty of excellent men's wear stores. But, where could a man get a hair style that really flattered him? The answer was- no place. I decided to open a men's hair design shop and change all that." Though not seeking an acting career, Sebring made a cameo appearance in an episode of the TV show Batman, playing a character based on himself called Mr. Oceanbring. It is rumored that the movie “Shampoo”, starring Warren Beatty, was based on Jay’s being known as “hairdresser to the stars”.Adjacent to his salon on Fairfax Avenue, West Hollywood, Pat Woolley ran her iconic fashion shop, catering to musicians and movie stars including Mia Farrow.Despite Jay’s success, he was rumored to be in serious financial trouble toward the end of his life. He was a drug user and reportedly was spending a lot of his money on drugs, and just supporting his fancy Hollywood lifestyle.

In 1965, Jay bought the home at 9820 Easton Drive. The house is so enshrouded with foliage that it’s almost invisible from the road. This home is very mysterious and is associated with several tragedies. It’s a very interesting structure; the windows are equipped to spray water on the panes to simulate rain. There are several gargoyles carved inside and outside the home. Some say they were carved to resemble movie stars of the day.

This home was built by Paul Bern. Paul was a big shot in Hollywood, a powerful producer employed by MGM Studios. Paul married Jean Harlow in 1932, and 2 months later, in September 1932, Paul was found shot to death, nude in his bathroom, apparently a suicide.

Paul left the following note, supposedly to Jean:

“Dearest dear,

Unfortunately this is the only way to make good the frightful wrong I have done you and wipe out my abject humiliation. I love you".

Paul

"You understand last night was only a comedy”

Jean and others were suspected of murder, but the death was ruled a suicide. The case was later reopened, and the studio was charged with a cover up for murder, but it was later dismissed. There were 2 other deaths in the house before Sebring bought it. Sebring was fascinated by the history of the house. It was a big reason he bought it.

When Sebring bought the house, he said “When I go, the whole world’s going to know about it.” Jay’s life, of course, ended August 9, 1969, at Cielo Drive, along with the 4 other victims.

First of all, I love your input. You and Lynyrd always seem to push me back to center when I start leaning too far in one direction. HA HA.

I've thought that Suzanne might have been involved in the LaBianaca murders, but it's only my opinion. In fact, I'm probably the only one of that opinion.

But I find it strange that there were only 2 people on earth who could possibly have known when the LaBiancas got home that morning, Suzanne and the newspaper guy. So how did Charlie know when it was time to head over there?

I know, that could have been a coincidence, but I find it strange that Charlie was just kind of driving around aimlessly for a while, then suddenly made a bee-line to Waverly Drive.

I also find it strange that Suzanne rallied to get Tex out. In fact, that's just plain nuts!

Going back to the Harold True post:Another post I read on that Truth site was a 1994 interview with Phil Kaufman about his book Road Mangler. He sayt's he lived with Harold at Waverly and that is why or partly why Charlie chose the next door neighbor ( La Bianca ) because Phil was not home.

Bobby, thanks so much for that link to the Russell book on Cat's site. That was very interesting, although I don't know how true it is. It's easy to cite different pieces of information and say it's from "an unidentified close friend".

I know that Jay was a strange little man. That's pretty much been established by many different people. How strange, I'm not sure.

Sharon made the comment to Roman that Jay liked rough sex. She thought it was funny.

>>>Bobby said: Going back to the Harold True post:Another post I read on that Truth site was a 1994 interview with Phil Kaufman about his book Road Mangler. He sayt's he lived with Harold at Waverly and that is why or partly why Charlie chose the next door neighbor ( La Bianca ) because Phil was not home.>>>

Bobby, I don't know much at all about Phil Kaufman. Does he state a reason that Charlie would want him dead? I'm assuming that is what he's asserting.

In August of 1969, Harold didn't live there and I'm assuming that Phil didn't either. If Harold was as much in tune with Charlie as he says, I would imagine that Charlie knew that Harold didn't live there anymore.

In that Russell book, he makes it look like Jay & Voytek brought their own deaths about. That they were preoccupied with death. I'd not heard that before.

It was interesting about the Peter Hurkos stuff. He was obviously way off base on some things, but others he was pretty accurate.

His first assertion that the killers were not intruders, that they were known to the victims and they were admitted to the house willingly is just plain stupid. The police already knew that the killer(s) cut the screen and came thru the window.

Katie. i cant find the post again. I cant remember if he gave a reason. He produced the LIE album & pressed 3000 copies of which he sais the girls stole a bunch of them & he had to chase them away from his house 3 times once with a 357. lol.

A lady by the name of McCaffery was working as Jay Sebring´s hair salon receptionist She told Paul Krassner, editor of The Realist that her boyfriend Joel Rostau, delivered cocaine and mescaline to Cielo Drive the night of the murders. Later-during the trial several associates of Sebring were murded, among them Rostau. His body was discovered in the trunk of a car in New York. Krassner also came in contact with Preston Guillory, a former deputy sheriff in LA, who informed him:A few weeks prior to the Spahn Ranch raid we were told that we weren´t to arrest Manson or any of his followers. We had a sheaf of memos on Manson-that they had automatis weapons at the ranch, that citizens had complained about hearing machine guns at night, that firemen from the local fire station had been accosted by armed members of Manson´s band and told to get out of the area. Deputies started asking. Why aren´t we gonna make the raid sooner. But somebody very high up was controlling everything that was going on and was seeing to it that we didn´t bust Manson.

manson stole the telescope before he visited 10050 cielo, so he already knew melcher had moved. i have always believed that he went to 10050 cielo to see altobelli and just used melcher as an excuse to go on the property and have a conversation with altobelli. remember altobelli was a big wig in hollywood management.

Beauders I didn't know that Charlie had already stolen the telescope before he went to Cielo Drive. I was thinking it was after.

We know that Charlie wasn't going there to see Melcher. I agree that he could have gone there to see Altobelli. I've read that he talked with Altobelli for a while about him getting a recording contract and Altobelli blew him off. He thought his music stunk.

I've made the comment before that the hit on Cielo Drive might have been directed at Altobelli. I believe Altobelli told Charlie in March that he was leaving the country the next day, but maybe Charlie thought he was back home by August.

I would like to hear Preston Guillory, who is apparently still with us, confirm that story as Krassner is, well, a nut job.

Yes, Katie, the telescope being taken from Malibu was a couple of weeks before the murders according to Candace Bergen's book. And Altobelli says he told Manson in March that he would be out of the country for a year.

>>>Starship said: Yes, Katie, the telescope being taken from Malibu was a couple of weeks before the murders according to Candace Bergen's book. And Altobelli says he told Manson in March that he would be out of the country for a year.>>>

Thanks Starship. I was thinking the telescope disappeared after Charlie went to Cielo Drive in March.

Well if Altobelli told Manson he would be gone for a year then I'm assuming that the target was NOT Altobelli.

Comment: Mr. Guillory, If possible could you confirm the story Mr. Krassner did on an interview with you? My question is: Did you say that you think the sherrif agency was told by a hire authority to not arrest Manson family because they wanted him to be free to attack another group of people ? Thank you for your time Sir. Bob.

I read the pages from the Russell book and I don't believe all that was written.

I don't believe the savagery that was described to be inflicted on Sharon & Jay. The coroner's photos don't support it.

Jay Sebring was a strange little guy, there's no doubt about it. He was a drug user and was into some kinky stuff, but I don't believe for a minute that he caused his own death.

He also had some financial troubles due to his careless spending habits, but a lot of people did and still do. Doesn't cause death.

Same goes with Sharon Tate. She did have a curiosity about the black arts and dabbled in it somewhat, but it was just a passing fancy for her. Something "new & chic" to do. I don't think her attention span was strong enough to really let one thing control her life.

Hello Katie 8753You ask me if I support the theory about the law enforcement letting Charlie and the others run free in order to "remove certain people" from the drug business.Well, it is not impossible. But there isn´t enough evidence to confirm such a theory.You know Vincent Bug was right. But he didn´t understand the whole thing. He thought Manson deliberately instructed these murders. That was not so. The whole thing is that Manson´s teachings became to much for his followers, well not all. Blue who is very intelligent understood what he was talking about. But for the rest It was to heavy stuff. In here lies the solution to these incidents. Simply, they were like little kids who tryed to act like their parents but of course can´t grasp it all.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords".

Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him.

Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".

Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth.

BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up.

Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories???

I read those pages from the Russell book too, and while I found it intriguing in some parts, some of it was too hard to swallow.

Like I said, when you say you got the information from "an unidentified source", it's pretty much a grab bag. HA HA.

I mean, anyone can say they "heard" something and not identify the source. Then you can twist and turn the outcome into anything you want.

For instance, the writer says that Sheilah Wells stated that on August 8th, Sharon called her up and was upset that she was lonely, and invited Sheilah to her house. Sheilah declined, saying that she was having guests, and would Sharon come to her house.

Well I've not heard this before. From what I've read over and over, Sheilah did invite Sharon to her house, but it wasn't because Sharon called and said she was lonely.

I mean, how could Sharon be lonely? There were always people in that house. On August 8th, she had guests over for lunch, Barbara Parkins & Joanna Pettet, and after lunch she was tired and took a nap. The usual gang was in and out, Frykowski, Folger & Sebring, among others. So how could she have been lonely on August 8th. I'm not buying that.

katie, manson was an intelligent man could he have figured out that he was getting b.s. and the run around by altobelli, and wouldn't have minded if altobelli was home being killed with the others. i think he could have been a target in that respect. it is as believable as the drug burn theory that manson was pissed off at the disrespect he received the day he showed up at 10050 cielo and saw tate in the doorway--a woman he couldn't have or control, and he knew it.

Beauders said:>>>>"katie, manson was an intelligent man could he have figured out that he was getting b.s. and the run around by altobelli, and wouldn't have minded if altobelli was home being killed with the others. i think he could have been a target in that respect".<<<<

That's a proposition, I've heard before.Altobelli as the target... it's not as far-fetched as some other theories we've heard...

Phil Kaufman, was born in New York, and moved to LA in the late 1950s to work as a movie stunt man. After a period in prison on a drug charge, he became one of the best-known road managers in the music business -- working for the Rolling Stones, Joe Cocker, Frank Zappa and Emmylou Harris. Divorced, he has one son, and lives in Nashville

I like your comment. It makes perfect sense. If Altobelli had been there, it would have been another ace in the hole for Charlie, who I think was just pissed off in general. An important man in the business, a beautiful woman he couldn't have, a beautiful estate that he was once welcome to visit and now was run off like a ratty door to door salesman....sounds reasonable to me!!

Hey, all...have a good weekend. Not sure yet but hope I am heading back into the woods after some football tomorrow...

Lynyrd, sorry about Irene. She sure did some damage in my beloved Catskills too. I was too far west that day for it to be anything but a little rain and wind. I don't know about Guillory...somebody else pointed that website out a couple of weeks ago.

I received GIMME SKELTER on netflix today. Found it by accident when I typed in Gimme Shelter. Can't wait to watch it but I bet I'll want to kill myself halfway through...

Not sure how Phil and Harold met, but at the time, Harold was a student at UCLA. Harold met Manson through Phil. Phil met Manson in prison. For awhile, Harold lived with Phil at Chandler Drive- he lived in the backhouse that he painted for Phil. Gram Parsons also lived at that house for awhile...the house is no longer there. I had friends who lived in it in the 70's...it was demolished to widen the freeway.

Anyway, there are several pages dedicted to Harold True in Phil's book. He says Charlie wanted to live with him on Waverly Drive but Harold said no

I am almost done reading Hot Burritos- the true story of the Flying Burrito Brothers...written by John Einarson. On page 182...."we had a couple of friends who would come by" (Chris) HIllman adds. One of them was namded Charles Tacot. He was an older guy, a friend of Jim Dickson's (producer). When the Manson murders occured in August 1969, literally a canyon or two away from us, he was actually one of the first suspects because he had a beef with Jay Sebring. So Charles went down to the police station to turn himself in and within an hour was released because he hadn't done anything. But things got so creepy around that time at Burrito Manor that I decided to leave. I knew Terry Melcher (Manson's alleged target) and it was just too creepy for me. Michael (Clark) and Gram (Parsons) stayed fora while longer and I ended up having to pay the damaged for all of the things they did wrong in that house.

Hi Katie! My favorite Harold True story in Phil's book is that Harold brought three cakes with drugs in it and Phil was really really stoned. There are also pictures o Harold True painting, so maybe he also had some artistic talent.

In Road Mangler Deluxe, Phil states he owns the rights to Charlie Mansons' recorded music for the LIE album released in 1971. Phil produced the album...nobody put their real names on the album- Harold True was one of the investors. According to Phil Kaufman, Charlie was looking for Harold and him (I think for his music. Harold had been in Ethiopia with the Peace Corps. WHen Harold got back he rented 3267 Waverly Drive with Al Swerdloff and Ernie Baltzell. When these guys moved into the house, the house next door was vacant but would soon be occupied by the La Biancas (3301 Waveryly Drive)_

Pg 74, Road Mangler: Manson had the La Biancas killed when he was looking for Harold and me. I had previously fallen out with Charlie over his music and he was after me. They went to my house first then they went to Waverly Drive but the house was vacant (Harold, Al and Ernie had moved out some time before) They then went next door and killed the La Bianca couple. It wasn't just a coincidence.

But Charlie did know where Melcher lived. He stole his telescope from his mother's beach house where Terry was living a couple of weeks before the murders. He was supposedly giving Terry a message at that time that he knew where he was.

Katie 8753I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords"."I said it´s not impossible. That´s all I said."Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him."Let me tell you this. I don´t think that Tex Watson came up with the idea to go killing people. And I don´t think Manson came up with the idea to go killig people. "I think it came from Susan Atkins."Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth."Well one thing about Manson is that he dosen´t snitch. He follows strictly the prison rules among inmates that says "never snitch." So Manson would never snitch on Susan Atkins even if it would have put him in a better position.About Tex Watson: That guy was so stoned that he didn´t have any idea about what he was doing or why he was doing it." BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up. "Yes he has admitted that."Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories??? "In court ackording to the law that dosen´t prove that he orded the killings. I still say it was Susan Atkins that came up with the idea, to free Bobby Beauselil, by copy cat murders."

>>>V717 said: Katie 8753I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that you're trying to say that you don't believe there was a "conspiracy" to keep Charlie free in order to kill the "drug lords"."I said it´s not impossible. That´s all I said.">>>

It is impossible.

>>>Also you're saying that Charlie didn't order the murders, that his "children" misunderstood him."Let me tell you this. I don´t think that Tex Watson came up with the idea to go killing people. And I don´t think Manson came up with the idea to go killig people. "I think it came from Susan Atkins.">>>

>>>Well, let's look at the facts. Tex says that Charlie took him aside on August 8th and told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live and kill everyone there".Now no one else heard this conversation. So it's Tex vs Charlie on that one, and since they're both liars, it's hard to know who is telling the truth."Well one thing about Manson is that he dosen´t snitch. He follows strictly the prison rules among inmates that says "never snitch." So Manson would never snitch on Susan Atkins even if it would have put him in a better position.>>>

Now you're way off base man. Charlie threw all the girls under the bus to get out of the death penalty when he was convicted. You can call that "snitching" or you can call that brainwashing.

V717, did you not know that the "copy cat" idea only came up on the penalty phase? And Charlie didn't finger Susan...he fingered Linda. Come on man...read up on the literature.

>>>About Tex Watson: That guy was so stoned that he didn´t have any idea about what he was doing or why he was doing it. >>>

Well you'll have to argue with JimNY about that one. He's convinced that Tex was the ringleader. HA HA.

>>>BUT...on the very next evening, Charlie drove the killers to the LaBianca residence, and by his own admission, tied them up. "Yes he has admitted that."Now knowing that Charlie was very aware of what happened at Cielo Drive (he went back to see what his children had done), are you saying that he didn't tell them to kill the LaBiancas? What do you think....that he wanted them to read them bedtime stories???

"In court ackording to the law that dosen´t prove that he orded the killings. I still say it was Susan Atkins that came up with the idea, to free Bobby Beauselil, by copy cat murders.">>>

V717, you are avoiding the obvious.

I'm really tired of going thru the motions of convincing you that Charlie was in charge. He was always in charge. He never lost control until after he was sentenced to death, and he still has control...of people like you.

That's a shame. I would think that his stigma had worn off by now.

He's still brainwashing people.

I've tried to help you, but to no avail.

Susan Denise Atkins didn't order murder. She didn't order copy cat murder. She was a crazy mixed up bitch, due in large to Charlie's constant drug cache and her crazy personality.

But Susan Atkins never killed anyone. And I'll say further, that she never inflicted harm on anyone. She never stabbed anyone. She was a mouthy bitch that brought down the ceiling on the murderers. If it wasn't for her mouth, they may never have figured out who did the murders.

But she was so nutzoid that she bragged about it in prison.

And Charlie hates her for that. He will always hate her for that.

Too fucking bad.

Charlie ordered the murders, he ordered the Cielo Drive murders, he not only ordered the Waverly Drive murders, he drove them there himself. He's guilty as charged.

Well, the hearing for Casey Anthony took place today, and nothing was decided. That bearded motherfucker that was her attorney kept popping up and down like a demented jack-in-the-box and objecting and laughing like a fucking clown, and made a complete fool of himself.

Judge Belvin Perry will take it under advisement and will rule before September 20th. Keep in mind that Casey Anthony lied her fucking ass off about everything. That's what this is based on.

Stay tuned!!! Casey can strip all she wants, but she's gonna owe money, and I don't care how much they argue about if people know about her income, but the IRS always knows!!!

Katie 8753About Tex Watson. Shortly before the murders, by more or less misstake Tex happened to partace of a large dose of belladonna. Belladonna is quite poisounous and should be administered in very small doses.After that he took a ride into the city and ended up slithering across a sidewalk in Van Nueys on his hands and kness through a crowd of schoolchildren, unable to walk or talk except making little mechanical sounds, over and over: Beep, beep, beep, beep. Before it was over he encountered little space people in flying saucers beeping back at him. Tex ended up in an arrest for public intoxication. The arrest resulted in Tex being fingerprinted and later on one of those fingerprints would match a print from the front door at Sharon Tates place.It is also well known that Tex and Susan Atkins had their own little joint venture together in form of probably cocaine. Manson had strictly forbidden any use of hard drugs. But this indicate that Manson wasn´t that much in charge as people usually think he was.Susan has also confessed that before they drove up to Cielo Drive she and Tex "out of side" from Manson sniffed a large dose of Coke.

lynn-rumor has it that grants back on the hard stuff again just a rumor but that would explain why hes so gaunt these days. i've seen bits and pieces of color me obsessed on yt. who knew that tom arnold was a mats fan? if you want get my email from l/s cos i've got some questions about the film and hd that i don't want to clog the blog withv717 are you saying that tex and sadie were dealing coke/speed from the ranch? i was under the impression that they just had a stash of speed for their own use but if they had their own "joint venture" going manson would probably have known about it and as you said that would imply less control over at least the two of them.

got your message lynn will write later tonight.i remember norm from cheers on letterman wearing a pleased to meet me tshirt on letterman saying what a great band they were before i even knew who they were bizarre fanbase

I know about Tex's adventure with Belladonna. I think he said Gypsy boiled up a root or something.

And I know about Tex's and Sadie's baby food jar full of speed.

And yes it was against Charlie's rules.

But I'm not sure if that's enough evidence that Charlie wasn't in charge. Perhaps Tex & Sadie did devilish things that Charlie wasn't aware of here and there, but certainly not murdering 7 people without Charlie's permission.

I'm new to the blog and am skimming through several threads. I noticed a post here by Katie8753 (dated 8/31/11) and she asked if the footage at Jay's house was before or after Sharon and Roman got together. It was very clearly AFTER they got together because, in the close-ups of her when she's sitting by Jay, you can clearly see her wedding ring.

Thanks for the welcome, Katie 8753. The relationship between Sharon, Jay and Roman is very intriguing. Some say that thei relationhip continued even though she was married. Others say that Jay might've been the father of the baby. Allegedly, he was the one who told her parents that she was pregnant. Why would he do that? They were very touchy-feely in that footage. Even though it was a different era, they seemed to not have any hesitation at showing their affection for each other. Jay seemed to know that Sharon would accept a kiss and she certainly followed him with her eyes as he walked away. Just friends? Maybe, maybe not.

The photo of Jay with George Peppard was taken on the set of "The Blue Max" in August of 1965. George paid Jay $2500 for the trim. Of course, it's possible that the studio actually paid it. Some accounts have claimed that it was $25,000.00, but that's untrue. Think how much $2500 was in 1965!

Venus, you are the expert on all things Jay Sebring! I've seen this video before and the look Sharon gives Jay after he kisses her and walks away...Wow! I honestly don't know what was going on there. If Roman was shooting the video, that's really weird.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Roman filming the footage. I can't remember the name of the guy who comes down the stairs (and I do know it, I'm just blanking out on it right now), but he was a friend of Roman's and Sharon doesn't exactly appear to be excited to see him when he interrupted her walk with Jay. It looks like she was telling him a thing or two and then he puts his arm around her as if to say "there, there, shut up now." haha I'd love to know who filmed it and if there's more footage.

>>>Venus said: 'm pretty sure it wasn't Roman filming the footage. I can't remember the name of the guy who comes down the stairs (and I do know it, I'm just blanking out on it right now), but he was a friend of Roman's and Sharon doesn't exactly appear to be excited to see him when he interrupted her walk with Jay. It looks like she was telling him a thing or two and then he puts his arm around her as if to say "there, there, shut up now." haha I'd love to know who filmed it and if there's more footage.>>>

Hey thanks Venus! I was wondering who that guy was. I love the way you're reading the "body language" in this film, because we obviously don't have sound. Yes, Jay and Sharon were VERY lovey dovey in this clip. I can't help but wonder if Roman cared. I kinda think not. He seemed awfully busy with his own social life. HA HA.

LOL Katie8753. I wonder if we'll ever know the truth about what was going on. Were they just friends or had their relationship continued? Saron had to be tired of roman flaunting his affairs all over the place. Maybe she was realizing that she made a mistake????

I still can't think of the name of that guy which is really frustrating. Did you notice that jay stops walking with Sharon when he sees him? I found that to be pretty interesting. Does it mean something? I don't know but it seems weird.

Roman was probably glad that Sharon was keeping busy because it didn't interfere with his personal life.

Body language is a big interest of mine. I think the connection between Sharon and Jay is very strong. Look at the way they look at each other when they're sitting side by side, look at the way they lean towards each other.

Venus!!! We could discuss this topic for days. We should make another thread of it!!! HA HA.

I surely wish you'd come to the current thread. Everyone would LOVE your witty banter!!

>>>Venus said: Sharon had to be tired of roman flaunting his affairs all over the place. Maybe she was realizing that she made a mistake????

I can't for the life of me figure out why she married him anyway. Money??? I've read that she was going to be rid of his ass after the baby came. Don't know if that was true...and she didn't get the chance.

>>>I still can't think of the name of that guy which is really frustrating. Did you notice that jay stops walking with Sharon when he sees him? I found that to be pretty interesting. Does it mean something? I don't know but it seems weird.>>>

I noticed that too. Very strange. I don't think I would have noticed that guy except for the fact that Jay seemed to shy away.

>>>Body language is a big interest of mine. I think the connection between Sharon and Jay is very strong. Look at the way they look at each other when they're sitting side by side, look at the way they lean towards each other.>>>

Oh the connection is unmistakable. Like you said...Sharon watched as he walked away...she leaned up to kiss him when he was leaving....she sat by his side when they were all talking, leaning into him to laugh...I could go on and on. I'm into body language too, and it seems easier to interpret body language without sound.

I like to play the piano in the dark. I can hear it better. I think that when you can't see...you hear better. And when you can't hear...you see better.

Anyway, do you know if the girl in the swing that Sharon is laughing with is Debra Tate? I've always thought that.

Also, this house that Jay bought just fascinates me. I'm not sure why. I think it's the architecture, all the steps and nooks and crannies!!!

Ohhhh, Katie, you and I need to get together, pop a big bowl of popcorn (not the microwave kind) and have a couple of ice cold Dr. Peppers and chat about this for a couple of days! Seriously!

I've also heard that Sharon was planning to leave Roman after the baby was born if he didn't shape up and, it's VERY doubtful that he would've shaped up. I think the writing was on the wall there.

Why did she marry him? For name recognition? Was it really love? I just don't think there seems to be a big connection between them in photos. He seemed to have control issues, have you ever noticed how they're always posed so that he appears to be taller? Was that an ego issue with him?

I don't think that was Debra in the swing, but it might've been. I don't think she would've been invited to a party at Jay's house. I've heard that Sheila Wells is on the swing.

As for Jay's house, I LOVE it too. Let's go for a visit, ok? Did you ever see photos of the mural that was inside it?

The turret was supposedly where Jean Harlow would go when she wanted to pout.

You hit the nail on the head with the "staged photos" of Sharon and Roman. Either he was always on a step above her, or she was hunching down, because he always seemed to be either taller than her, or the same height. I'm sure she was taller than he was, and she probably had to spend another $500 or $600 on flats and get rid of the heels.

I really can't understand why she married him. He wasn't attractive, he wasn't a nice guy, he wasn't faithful, he didn't speak good English...maybe it was the "bad foreigner boy" image or the up-and-coming director image. I just can't say.

I don't know a lot about Sharon Tate, I've read a lot of things...don't know if they're all true, but I think she was kind of strange and hard to understand. You know, even on this film of her at Jay's house, it all seems staged to me, like she's acting. I just get that feeling....

The only reason I'm thinking it was Debra Tate on the swing is that when I first saw this film a few years ago on You Tube, someone made the comment that it was Debra. Debra was ten years younger than Sharon, and if Sharon was around 25 when this film was made, Debra would have been 15. And it appears to be a teenager in the swing. Sheila was Sharon's age.

>>Venus said: As for Jay's house, I LOVE it too. Let's go for a visit, ok? Did you ever see photos of the mural that was inside it?

The turret was supposedly where Jean Harlow would go when she wanted to pout.>>>

I didn't see the photos of the mural. Did I miss something.

That turret is fascinating. That whole house fascinates me. If I ever got the chance to go in there, I'd definitely want you to be there. We have the same curiosities.

If you're interested in another thread on this subject, just e-mail Lynyrd any new info you have and he will forward to me and we'll give it a go!!!

@katie8753, no the girl in the swing that Sharon was talking to was not her sister Debra. At the time of Sharon's death Debra was a slender teenager. And Debra's better looking even now than that woman in the swing was.

@katie8753, No, the girl Sharon was talking to in the swing was not her sister Debra. At the time of Sharon's death Debra was a very young looking, slender teenager. And even today Debra is better looking than the woman in the swing. If you ever see photos or video of Sharon's funeral you might see how very young and slender Debra was, and it would be clear that Debra was not the one in the swing.

@kate8753, you said to someone here in a post that you don't know Sharon could have been lonely...with friends and the guests and so on at the house coming and going. Sharon was lonely for Roman. He was prolonging his stay in Europe. And she was tired of the house guests.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True