If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Was things really necessary?

@Rikudou King

At this point, I'm almost certain we're miles away from the original discussion for the most part. I'm not going to continue to argue about how essential Sasuke's MS was in allowing him to compete against the later opponents. I think its clear that everyone in the thread , except you, has already accepted, and agrees, that Sasuke wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A without his MS.

As for the Itachi battle discussion, I'm pretty sure it's over if we're at the point at which you're saying that Itachi not intending to win is not the same as purposely losing. I'd say a dying guy that intends to die and give up his eyes at the end of a battle is purposely losing. The reality is that if Sasuke was just some opponent, and not Itachi's kid brother, Itachi would've taken him out rather quickly.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Impossibility

At this point, I'm almost certain we're miles away from the original discussion for the most part. I'm not going to continue to argue about how essential Sasuke's MS was in allowing him to compete against the later opponents. I think its clear that everyone in the thread , except you, has already accepted, and agrees, that Sasuke wouldn't be able to compete with the likes of A without his MS.

And I believe, given that it was outright shown in the manga itself, that most readers would acknowledge that he could compete. Your argument about him using MS later on in the battle doesn't change the fact that Sasuke was shown fighting quite well without it and accomplished something that was considered amazing, keeping up with regular Ee.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

As for the Itachi battle discussion, I'm pretty sure it's over if we're at the point at which you're saying that Itachi not intending to win is not the same as purposely losing. I'd say a dying guy that intends to die and give up his eyes at the end of a battle is purposely losing. The reality is that if Sasuke was just some opponent, and not Itachi's kid brother, Itachi would've taken him out rather quickly.

If Itachi had intended to purposely lose, then he could have fought Sasuke without using his MS. Instead, he tried to employ Tsukuyomi and actually set Sasuke on fire with Amaterasu, without knowing that Sasuke had the means to counter either of them. The entire point was clearly to see if Sasuke was strong enough to take his place, there's no other reason for Itachi to use what he did. Yeah, we know via Totsuka Blade that Itachi has the meas to instantly win without any real effort. Not employing that is not the same as holding back. It's like saying Madara not using his prefect Susanoo or Naruto not using his Bijuu Rasengan is them purposely trying to lose. One can still give a serious fight without using to an instant win technique.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Think of Fuuton Rasengan as a Fire Chidori ( its impossible, but bear with me ):
they are simply a different version of the same jutsu, its not something new ( like we can't call new Oodama Rasengan ).
Fuuton Rasenshuriken its a total new jutsu, which Naruto created alone and, as I showed, that was the goal of the training

Fire chidori is the same as lightning chidori, but with different element. Chidori is complete anyway since it has lightning. Fuuton: rasengan is the completed version of rasengan, while fuuton: rasenshuriken is a different jutsu that Naruto made and took a step further. The goal, as said, was to infuse fuuton with rasengan, which is what Naruto did. FRS wasn't the goal, but I guess Naruto wanted to take it further for some stupid reason against Sasuke. I'm hoping he meant Akatsuki, since it'd actually make sense.

Unless Naruto secretly wants to kill Sasuke.

Quote:

You nailed it, "if Kishi wanted to".
Realistically both Naruto and Sasuke should've died at least 3-4 times over, but they didn't, why?
Plot shield

Also 30 years lost of life is nothing?
Ask me if I want to live 30 years longer

Naruto wouldn't have died because he has Kyuubi's power to protect him. Sasuke didn't have any such power. Take away plot shield and Naruto will still survive more fights thanks to Kyuubi.

If Naruto even loses some of his lifespan though. With Uzumaki genes, I doubt it.

Quote:

How so?
He knew the process, he trained for it, he just couldn't hold it because its human form wasn't strong enough. Also in Bijuu mode Naruto and Kyuubi's chakras merges, so its pretty likely Kyuubi helped him out with control, if he couldn't do it.

it's like Sasuke completing Susano'o on his first try. It'd be BS because Sasuke doesn't know how to summon Susano'o personally despite knowing a theory behidn doing so. At least staying in bijuu mode has limits.

Quote:

Pein's only limit was when he couldn't use Shinra Tensei, otherwise he was always fine, since his body wasn't damaged and Nagato's own body still sustained him with enough chakra to revive an entire village.

Against Muu it was more a tag team between him and Gaara, and taking Muu by surprise with the lenghty arm

Until he used Chibaku Tensei, yeah. Nagato used up his life force and died as result. Had it been Naruto, he' have lived with plenty of jutsu left over thanks to Kyuubi.

Thanks to Kyuubi's chakra.

Quote:

They were still in an environment they perceived was a threat for their lifes:
Sasuke was facing the one who murdered his whole clan, Obito was in the middle of a war, against an invisible opponent while Kakashi was wounded.

I doubt it, considering Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he wanted to, and Obito wasn't in danger yet. As far as I see, emotions are required, not necessarily life or death situation. Otherwise Obito would have awakened his SHaringan already when he was running to meet his team at the start of Gaiden, thinking he'll be killed by Kakashi for tardiness. And, Sharingan wouldn't have been said to be rare among Uchiha.

Quote:

Point is, if Itachi so much wanted to he could've destroyed Sasuke here and then. Kyuubi wanted to squash Naruto, but he wasn't able to.
Add to this the difference in power between Kyuubi and Itachi, and you can see that Naruto had it rougher

Kyuubi couldn't because of seal, and because Naruto had help from Hachibi and his mom, as well as Minato. Itachi still put Sasuke to the point of complete exhaustion. If Naruto didn't have help from his mom or the Hachibi, Naruto would have probably had it rougher, but as it stands, Sasuke had it rougher. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, but he still pushed him so far that Sasuke couldn't hold back Orochimaru's chakra, which is what Itachi wanted. Sasuke proved that he could keep up with Itachi for hte most part, while Naruto proved he couldn't keep up with Kyuubi in regards of hatred. Power-wise, no doubt about that even though Kushina did use her chain to make Kyuubi fall, since it was still Naruto dealing damage.

Quote:

You misunderstood Naruto's chakra for KB is his own, Kyuubi's regenerative abilities enabled Naruto to just pass out and not have his brain melted by dispelling 1000 clones at once.
Which would be avoided by Naruto dispelling one at a time

How so? I doubt it did anything but make him recover from physical strains. Naruto dispelling one clone at a time would probably not have made a difference, I think.

Quote:

It actually would, since Raiton < Fuuton and Fuuton Rasengan is even a grade higher than Chidori, meaning Sasuke would face a superior jutsu while having the elemental disadvantage.

A throwable rasengan that explodes?
Who wouldn't want it ?

I know, but it doesn't mean Sasuke would be killed. though, funnily every time we've seen Naruto and Sasuke use their finishers on each other, it's always ended in a tie, although Naruto implied rasengan was stronger and Sasuke furthered the implication by saying he was going all out compared to Naruto holding back a bit.

It's throwable only in Sage Mode.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Not that much effort, just blowing some fireballs into the sky. He had plenty of opportunities without needing to worry about Ee's attention. Sasuke could predict regular Ee's movements, which is why he landed two blows on him. So he shouldn't have had much issue landing the fireball either.

I doubt it, since Raikage could have found the opening to speedblitz Sasuke. Sasuke had some difficulty reacting, if I recall, so if he took his eyes off Raikage for a second, Raikage could deal some serious damage. The fireball wouldn't work because it still gives Raikage enough tiem to react and act.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by M3J

I doubt it, since Raikage could have found the opening to speedblitz Sasuke. Sasuke had some difficulty reacting, if I recall, so if he took his eyes off Raikage for a second, Raikage could deal some serious damage. The fireball wouldn't work because it still gives Raikage enough tiem to react and act.

Not with Juugo acting as a distraction. The only way Ee would have speedblitz him was with shunshin anyway, which Ee seem to have believed was unnecessary before Sasuke activated MS. And I would think, that if Sasuke can rush up to Ee and ht him with a sword, he can shoot a fireball within the same amount of time.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Aside from foreshadowing being the hint that something could happen, not a specific outline of what exactly will happen, how is it untrue? As so many people like to claim, "Sasuke won because Itachi allowed him to", so Itachi's original statement about being defeated remains true.

i will only be quoting certain part from your post, not the full one.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Like I said, that was in reference to Kirabi's own relationship with the Hachibi. Had Naruto develop like him, then it would count, but he didn't. Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different then it was before and from every other Jinchuuriki we've seen? Or that it would gain a bunch of abilities?

you by yourself are saying that exact outcome isn't needed; yet you are demanding exact outcome for Naruto. we all knew from very early days of the manga, i hope you did too, that Naruto will gain full access of Kyuubi's chakra. later it was also made clear that Naruto will be befriending Kyuubi. so, basically Naruto will gain a biju mode was an inevitable fact. but you are complaining that "Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different", meaning exact outcome; yet somewhere else you are saying that exact outcome is not needed.

Naruto gaining biju mode was foreshadowed very early on; if his outcome design isn't as it was expected from you, then by your own definition, that doesn't make it any less foreshadowed.

back with sasuke; you say his MS was foreshadowed. and i would say what was foreshadowed is the fact that sasuke won't gain MS at all. are you surprised? how on earth i can think something like that?

well think of it this way, Itachi said sasuke that someone with the same eyes could defeat him. so when sasuke "defeated" Itachi without the same eyes; it was certain that sasuke ain't gonna get MS. wasn't "i am nothing like you" or something like that a line from sasuke himself addressing Itachi?

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Not with Juugo acting as a distraction. The only way Ee would have speedblitz him was with shunshin anyway, which Ee seem to have believed was unnecessary before Sasuke activated MS. And I would think, that if Sasuke can rush up to Ee and ht him with a sword, he can shoot a fireball within the same amount of time.

Wait, we talking about Sasuke vs. Raikage or the fight at the kage summit? The Raikage wouldn't need max speed to hit Sasuke using shunshin, though. Sasuke had to focus on Raikage and keep him in sight so he could react in time. And I'm not sure if Raikage didn't know about that - he probably was confident that Sasuke wouldn't hurt him otherwise he'd have gotten out of the way.

Originally Posted by IChallengeYou!

obito being tobi

was that necessary?!

tell me!!

i demand answers!!

Not really, but Obito's reasons for being a douche and villain was even less necessary. -_-

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by M3J

The only time that happened was when Naruto fought Orochimaru and Pain. Otherwise he was still in control of his mind, even though he did get free chakra and healing abilities, as well as a boost. That's the only time Kyuubi's chakra or benefit of its chakra came into play, when Naruto needed it. He still got tired, he still fainted, he could still barely walk, etc. I don't think the Kyuubi's chakra helped him train up until the rasengan, when it helped him recover faster. While he did have those qualities at the beginning, it wasn't accessible to him until way later, although his healing rate was better.

In high tier battles, specially against Deva path, he surely wasn't in control of his mind. The 'needed it' part is a weak argument, as having an additional supply of Chakra is literally a deciding factor in most battles and healing ability is just an over-kill. Do you think he would have beaten Neiji without the additional Kurama chakra, when his own was exhausted? Do you think he could have broken through Haku's ice technique without Kurama's sinister chakra? Do you think he could have over-whelmed Deva path without going into a delirious nine-tails fit, when the path already had him pinned down?

Being accessible by default should be the correct argument, as regardless of him having to resort to a control, Kurama still shielded him for his own safety; after all he IS the nine-tails vessel.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by darkprince0521

you by yourself are saying that exact outcome isn't needed; yet you are demanding exact outcome for Naruto. we all knew from very early days of the manga, i hope you did too, that Naruto will gain full access of Kyuubi's chakra. later it was also made clear that Naruto will be befriending Kyuubi. so, basically Naruto will gain a biju mode was an inevitable fact. but you are complaining that "Where is the implication that Naruto's cloak would be different", meaning exact outcome; yet somewhere else you are saying that exact outcome is not needed.

Naruto gaining biju mode was foreshadowed very early on; if his outcome design isn't as it was expected from you, then by your own definition, that doesn't make it any less foreshadowed.

back with sasuke; you say his MS was foreshadowed. and i would say what was foreshadowed is the fact that sasuke won't gain MS at all. are you surprised? how on earth i can think something like that?

well think of it this way, Itachi said sasuke that someone with the same eyes could defeat him. so when sasuke "defeated" Itachi without the same eyes; it was certain that sasuke ain't gonna get MS. wasn't "i am nothing like you" or something like that a line from sasuke himself addressing Itachi?

When did I ever demand an exact outcome for Naruto? The issue with Naruto's cloak isn't over how he got it, but what he got and that's not an expectation for an exact outcome. It would be as if Sasuke went straight to EMS. Naruto's cloak is completely different from any other cloak, including his own previous versions and is granting him abilities that were never there before or suggested would come. It's one thing for Naruto to find a different path to gaining full control, it's another for him to gain a whole new bunch of powers.

Pertaining to Sasuke, I can understand you seeing it that way, except right after their battle we learnt that Itachi had manipulated the battle in order to purposely help Sasuke gain MS, before we actually saw Sasuke's MS. So we ended up back to where we had been before Sasuke actually showed it.

Originally Posted by M3J

Wait, we talking about Sasuke vs. Raikage or the fight at the kage summit? The Raikage wouldn't need max speed to hit Sasuke using shunshin, though. Sasuke had to focus on Raikage and keep him in sight so he could react in time. And I'm not sure if Raikage didn't know about that - he probably was confident that Sasuke wouldn't hurt him otherwise he'd have gotten out of the way.

I though we were discussing a different outcome to the fight at the summit. If Sasuke is directly attacking him, Ee would always be within view of his sight. Without shunshin, Sasuke would have the time to react before Ee actually landed a hit. And I think Ee showed he didn't care whether Sasuke could hurt him or not, as long as he could take Sasuke down too.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by shahdan

In high tier battles, specially against Deva path, he surely wasn't in control of his mind. The 'needed it' part is a weak argument, as having an additional supply of Chakra is literally a deciding factor in most battles and healing ability is just an over-kill. Do you think he would have beaten Neiji without the additional Kurama chakra, when his own was exhausted? Do you think he could have broken through Haku's ice technique without Kurama's sinister chakra? Do you think he could have over-whelmed Deva path without going into a delirious nine-tails fit, when the path already had him pinned down?

Being accessible by default should be the correct argument, as regardless of him having to resort to a control, Kurama still shielded him for his own safety; after all he IS the nine-tails vessel.

What? When wasn't he in control of his own mind apart from vs. Deva and Orochimaru? Once Haku was unmasked, Naruto stopped attacking and calmed down. He even talked to Sasuke and said he was like his own brother, before fainting from the chidori impact.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

I though we were discussing a different outcome to the fight at the summit. If Sasuke is directly attacking him, Ee would always be within view of his sight. Without shunshin, Sasuke would have the time to react before Ee actually landed a hit. And I think Ee showed he didn't care whether Sasuke could hurt him or not, as long as he could take Sasuke down too.

Thought it was about Sasuke vs. Raikage without Susano'o or Mangekyo.

And yeah, but you said he'd be sending fireballs to the sky for kirin. He'd have to take Raikage out of his field of vision. Even if he doesn't, he won't be able to react as fast if Raikage uses his shunshin.

Well, that's because Sasuke couldn't hurt him with the chidori blade, that attack failed. Raikage's probably that confident in his ability to tank.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

When did I ever demand an exact outcome for Naruto? The issue with Naruto's cloak isn't over how he got it, but what he got and that's not an expectation for an exact outcome. It would be as if Sasuke went straight to EMS. Naruto's cloak is completely different from any other cloak, including his own previous versions and is granting him abilities that were never there before or suggested would come. It's one thing for Naruto to find a different path to gaining full control, it's another for him to gain a whole new bunch of powers.

synchronizing with biju was meant to grant him new powers. the only thing different is the new design. Naruto's cloak is different, good. it was made clear when he took control of Kyuubi's chakra that his mode is different than others.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Pertaining to Sasuke, I can understand you seeing it that way, except right after their battle we learnt that Itachi had manipulated the battle in order to purposely help Sasuke gain MS, before we actually saw Sasuke's MS. So we ended up back to where we had been before Sasuke actually showed it.

you can understand me seeing it that way. that's good. anyway, we are not here to justify sasuke having MS, right? we are here for the "foreshadowing" part. from your this post, it is apparent that "right after their battle we learnt that Itachi had manipulated the battle in order to purposely help Sasuke gain MS"; thus making the previous statement "Itachi statement about only someone with the same eyes could defeat him" pointless. the foreshadowing of sasuke not getting MS was completely overturned with sudden story; is it not the same thing you have problem with? then why should sasuke get different treatment from you?

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by M3J

Thought it was about Sasuke vs. Raikage without Susano'o or Mangekyo.

And yeah, but you said he'd be sending fireballs to the sky for kirin. He'd have to take Raikage out of his field of vision. Even if he doesn't, he won't be able to react as fast if Raikage uses his shunshin.

Well, that's because Sasuke couldn't hurt him with the chidori blade, that attack failed. Raikage's probably that confident in his ability to tank.

Oh. Anyway, it would depend upon the area. the right position would allow him to shoot out the flames while keeping track of Ee, like he did with Itachi. Plus there's always the option of him simply using a regular Kirin, instead of the empowered version. But even after losing an arm to Enton, Ee continued on without fear.

Originally Posted by darkprince0521

synchronizing with biju was meant to grant him new powers. the only thing different is the new design. Naruto's cloak is different, good. it was made clear when he took control of Kyuubi's chakra that his mode is different than others.

Um, no. Mastering the Kyuubi was simply suppose to grant him complete control over it and it's chakra. Nothing was mentioned about new powers. And there being no reason behind his cloak being different is part of the problem.

Originally Posted by darkprince0521

you can understand me seeing it that way. that's good. anyway, we are not here to justify sasuke having MS, right? we are here for the "foreshadowing" part. from your this post, it is apparent that "right after their battle we learnt that Itachi had manipulated the battle in order to purposely help Sasuke gain MS"; thus making the previous statement "Itachi statement about only someone with the same eyes could defeat him" pointless. the foreshadowing of sasuke not getting MS was completely overturned with sudden story; is it not the same thing you have problem with? then why should sasuke get different treatment from you?

What different treatment? Both statements suggest that Sasuke would eventually gain MS, the only difference is the specifics of how. We're not arguing the specifics of how Naruto gain his cloaked, we're talking about the cloak itself and the bunch of random powers it granted. There should have been hints of these powers, since not only did Naruto always have access to some of the Kyuubi's chakra, but Jiraiya had previously partly open the seal earlier.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by M3J

What? When wasn't he in control of his own mind apart from vs. Deva and Orochimaru? Once Haku was unmasked, Naruto stopped attacking and calmed down. He even talked to Sasuke and said he was like his own brother, before fainting from the chidori impact.

Thought it was about Sasuke vs. Raikage without Susano'o or Mangekyo.

And yeah, but you said he'd be sending fireballs to the sky for kirin. He'd have to take Raikage out of his field of vision. Even if he doesn't, he won't be able to react as fast if Raikage uses his shunshin.

Well, that's because Sasuke couldn't hurt him with the chidori blade, that attack failed. Raikage's probably that confident in his ability to tank.

Was he in a complete control of his mind against Haku and Orochimaru? I don't think so. If that was the case, then why did the series emphasize on the 'gaining control of the Biju'? Doesn't make much sense to me from any angle. You didn't provide any counters for the other points.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Against Haku, he was in complete control. Why else would he stop once Haku was unmasked? I never said he was in control against Orochimaru though, considering Naruto would never hurt Sakura.

Because Naruto couldn't control the Kyuubi beyond third tails, as we saw. I'm talking about Kyuubi's influence on Naruto up to third tails, where he was still like himself, but a bit more ferocious. Naruto from fourth tail and beyond was completely taken over by the Kyuubi.

There's no need to. PRetty much obvious Naruto would have lost without Kyuubi's chakra.

Re: Was things really necessary?

^ He stopped because his rage was quelled, which became the actual trigger for his state. He didn't even know something like nine-tails took over him. There is nothing to support this 'control' logic you are using at that point in Manga. It's Naruto's surprise at finding Kyuubi inside him when he was near death the first time - during his training with Jiriya - which is the definite factor here, as he was not even aware of his 'transitional states' at all.