52 comments:

As a long time Halfling player I've grown to accept and love my level limit. A Dwarf may need 12 levels to feel accomplished, and heavens knows what humans are compensating for, but a Halfling is good before he even reaches Name.

@ blizack:So long as you don't complain about the original rules I think the deal still stands.

Ascending armor class made absolute sense to me the first time I saw it. It was logical and easy to keep track of.

THAC0 and descending armor class still fit like an old set of ringmail, and I would not mind playing in someone's game using it, but for my games, armor class goes up.

Demihuman level limits we simply never used in any of our games. Just could not find any reason to agree that those should be included. It definitely says something, however, that our 3.x parties are never less than 50% elven, and often more.

Keep fighting the good fight, Grognard. Can you link me to where in your blog you've laid out the case for descending armor class? I'm sure your opinions on this matter would be great reading, and it is always possible I will change my mind.

Color me disappointed. When I saw the title, I thought you were suggesting that we solve the low profitability of pen-and-paper rpgs by selling the flesh of console gamers as beef jerky in game stores. I click on the link just to find you revisiting issues I have long solved and laid to rest once and for all.A) the number you need to hit the bugbear is in the chart that only the DM sees. Roll your dice and tell the DM what you rolled and he will tell you if you hit or not.B) All characters die before they reach second level, so there is no sense in crying over whether or not your halfling can get to 'Lord' level. Your halfling is unlikely to survive the next room.

The only problem I've ever had with demi-human level limits is that it's only really a limit if you actually play to those levels. Which I personally never did. Thus, they didn't feel like much of a balancing factor me.

The only problem I've ever had with demi-human level limits is that it's only really a limit if you actually play to those levels. Which I personally never did. Thus, they didn't feel like much of a balancing factor me.

There's some truth to this. Most D&D characters back in the day didn't make it to 8th level, let alone higher, so it was rare that level limits ever mattered much. However, I do know that there are some players for whom the mere fact that their characters might be limited later is enough to dissuade them from choosing a demihuman character rather than a human one. I don't think this was the norm nor do I think it's a particularly effective way to dissuade people from choosing demihumans, if that's one goal, but I have seen it occur nonetheless.

Ascending AC is "old school", as noted previously, just not mainstream; q.v. Stephen Marsh - and no doubt others - in the late 70s.

Ascending AC was common enough in the old days, much like spell points, but it was definitely "heterodox." I don't recall any official attempts to adopt it in OD&D or AD&D, not even during the revision process that culminated in 2e.

Its not that Descending isn't easy to do provided your character sheet has a chart.

Its just not a GOOD thing, and one of those sacred Garyisms that should have been squished out really fast for not really making sense.

Look at a chart vs roll D20 and add your bonuses and wham that's what you hit.

Anything that can remove charts is a GOOD thing.

Its also why things like weapons vs AC and hit locations never caught on with most people. More charts to learn.

(For the record I don't even like Hit Locations in Runequest and thus use CoC styled HP for my BRP fun. In my X Plorers Vehicle/Mecha house rules I don't have hit locations either.)

As to Dwarf women? No beards. Which is also realistic from a nature point of view. How many male animals look more impressive with fancy stuff over female? LOTS. Do Dwarf dudes go crazy in most settings about their beards? YES.

Thus Dwarf men have beards and women do not as it was their original evolutionary bit to attract females by having fancy face hair.

> Ascending AC was common enough in the old days, much like spell points, but it was definitely "heterodox."

Yep; that was the other example I had in mind - the earliest abstract example of which I've found being Rob Kuntz's use of the concept in a "non-standard"(!) manner pre-dating (I /think/) the publication of OD&D.

> I don't recall any official attempts to adopt it in OD&D or AD&D, not even during the revision process that culminated in 2e.

*nods*. There are always varying degrees of "unofficialness", of course. :)

I vaguely remember something, maybe from Dragon? Or perhaps this http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/miscpages/fighting.html

That is neat.

If/when I use "complex" weapon rules such as weapon vs AC, RM style crits, etc. I prefer to have each weapon with it's particular stats/charts on a 3x5 card or sheet of paper(RM requires this much flippin space) all nicely laid out using every scrap of UI design and psychology knowledge I know to make it easy.

(OT)> Norman Harman wrote:> I prefer to have each weapon with it's particular stats/charts on a 3x5 card or sheet of paper(RM requires this much flippin space) all nicely laid out using every scrap of UI design and psychology knowledge I know to make it easy.

All that's needed are the crit tables and a hand-held computer, or two (I was using various Casios and Sharps from the 1980s onwards) as ALL the RM attack tables have a logical progression that can be compressed into a very short string representation.Using cardboard cut-out depictions to number PCs and "monsters" meant that those could be coded in, too, for use as required.Net result; relatively quick and easy-to-run combats with a better feel of realism than xD&D and most other options, IMHO.

Well since it did, here’s my theory with Tolkien: According to him- they are only a third of the whole population, are jealously guarded by them, and seldom travel out. Thus, they are rare and obviously vital. I say: Hidden and jealously guarded deep in dwarven communities, they are disguised as males before strangers (beard and all). Very rarely do they travel outdoors (and I suspect when they do, they are disguised). Thus, the false legend of dwarven women. Based upon the person I believe him to be, I think he would had found the idea of actual bearded dwarven women rather repulsive, yet he was fond of purposely leaving mysteries in the fabric of Arda. Simply my humble theory on the Professor’s work.

One of the ironies is that using charts and descending AC (which are said to be less logical, less intuitive, etc.,), I have found that the average group has been able to roll through lots more encounters in a typical 4 hour session than using the 'more uniform and logical' d20 rules. Especially at high levels. In most d20 games, a high level combat (with several lvl 10 players) seems to last the whole session. It may be more logical, but it always seems to take longer. What's up with that?

“I have found that the average group has been able to roll through lots more encounters in a typical 4 hour session than using the 'more uniform and logical' d20 rules.”

IMHO, this is about the overall complexity of the rules. When you’re playing classic D&D, there just isn’t enough complexity to make complaints about different mechanics or the direction of AC worth bothering with. The more complex things get (whether from house rules or an edition with more rules), then those complaints start to find traction.

When you’re playing classic D&D, there just isn’t enough complexity to make complaints about different mechanics or the direction of AC worth bothering with. The more complex things get (whether from house rules or an edition with more rules), then those complaints start to find traction.

Normally I would not post for something like this but coming from the illustrious computer game Dwarf Fortress the best of the games crafted by a Godly programmer known as The Toady One. I must stress that of course dwarven females have beards and the bigger the beard a dwarf has the higher social rank up to being a noble. Dwarves when born look like little balls of beard, The one born with the biggest beard is declared to be the future king or queen as is only their right!

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