Sorry, but you're wrong

I agree jfk. It's time to put this sham competition to rest. I'm just waiting for the Browns to release McCoy. Not for football reasons mind you, but because it would be PR nightmare if Weeden struggled, as many rookie QBs do, and McCoy came in and succeeded. I can't wait to read the BS statements of appreciation for all McCoy brought to the team when they let him go. I say show the kid your appreciation with cash and pay his full contract when you release him. It will be interesting to see who he lands with after the Browns release him.

I found the SI article interesting. They placed the Browns 8th among teams likely to turn to their back up QBs. What was interesting was this was predicated on the Browns still having McCoy, which the author doesn't believe will be the case, and Weeden missing at least some of camp in a contract holdout, which is clearly not going be the case now. I still think that Weeden could struggle trying to adjust to the NFL, a lot better QBs did their rookie years, and that's why the Browns FO will want McCoy gone. If McCoy were to come in and succeed with the improved offensive talent where Weeden had failed, the FO would be hard pressed to explain why they wasted a first round pick on a QB who'll be 29 years old at the bye week. They do not want to have to answer those questions, and they won't if McCoy's not here. That's why I think he'll be released. I'd like to see them pay the kid the $1.1 million he has left on his contract as a sign of appreciation for him being classy despite how poorly they treated him, but that would require them to be just as classy, and I haven't seen any sign of that from this administration.

From Kevin Hetrick of the Cavs blog, "Dion Waiters paced the team in scoring and assists. He also shot 30% from the field, struggling with converting from all ranges while racking up several turnovers." Doesn't sound like he was too impressed either, benny, but maybe he doesn't have your special glasses to look through.

benny, I'm not trying to argue with you. That would be pointless. It's clear that you have a closed mind and are threatened by logical arguments. I am happy for you to cling to your delusions, and wish you the best of luck with them. I would say that trying to get rational people to also buy into your delusions though is a fool's errand.

Whether Waiters looked lousy in the Summer League because he IS lousy or whether it was because he's just lazy/arrogant is irrelevant. At least a 1/2 dozen lottery picks found a way to make a statement in those games and he didn't. 6 players with as much or as little to prove as Waiters did took to the floor, and yet they all succeeded where he failed. It doesn't matter if they were hitting jump shots or dunks, they were getting it done, and usually in more than just scoring too. No matter how you try to make excuses for him benny, that's disconcerting at least.

I will state once again that I don't place a lot of faith in the Summer League or it's outcomes, but that doesn't mean you can completely ignore it because it brings some inconvenient facts to light either. I certainly hope Waiter's comes out of training camp looking like a player who was worth the #4 pick, but I don't think you or anyone else should take that for granted at this point.

You're right again benny. Nobody can MAKE you accept the reality of the situation, and if you are determined to remain willfully ignorant, not I nor anyone else will ever be able to change your mind. I would suggest that if you ARE determined to remain ignorant, you might want to keep it to yourself as it makes you seem unbalanced to the objective eye.

I agree. If the Cavs add a 6'6” SG like Shabazz Muhammad or a 6'9” SF like James McAdoo, I think people will be flocking back to the Q. If on the other hand the Cavs use their lottery pick to choose 6'6” SF Solomon Hill because that's what the ESPN metrics board tells them to do, they might not show up at all.

As for Waiters and his "it" factor, He'll have to bring it before I can evaluate it. I tell you one thing though, this is Irving's team. If Waiters wants to get behind that, great, but if he starts thinking this is his team, he'll become more trouble than he's worth. You see mike, I've seen Irving's "it" factor, and it's damn impressive.

Well benny, you make an excellent point. I suppose things would be different is a 1/2 dozen lottery picks were in the top 20 in the Summer League. I mean if you look beyond Lilliard's 26.5 ppg 5.3 apg, Lamb's 20 ppg 4.4 rpg, Henson's 18.3 ppg 6.8 rpg, MKG's 18 ppg 8 rpg 5 apg, Beal's 17.6 ppg 4.6 rpg, and Barnes' 16.8 ppg 5.6 rpg, there's no reason to expect a lottery pick to come out and play hard in the Summer League, is there? Your logic is as faulty as your data benny. If your a player getting paid the kind of money that Waiters is ging to be paid, then you don't get to tell the team when you're going to play hard, you're expected to play hard EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY, whether you deem it worthy of your efforts or not.

No benny, you shouldn't be concerned. It's not your job to be concerned. You're a fan and you have the luxury of caring about players when the mood strikes you. There's nothing wrong with that.

The FO on the other hand SHOULD be concerned, and VERY concerned at that. When a player demonstrates an unmotivated approach, whether it's summer league, practice, or during a regular season game, it's a sign that that player may have character flaw. That player may feel he doesn't have to earn what he has and doesn't put forth a maximum effort. I'm not saying that Waiters is necessarily that kind of player, but the FO had best be investigating whether he is or not. You know, the kind of effort they should have made before they gambled the #4 pick on him.

I appreciate your insight benny, I'm just not sure I agree with it. If Waiters isn't trying in the summer league because he feels entitled, that's a bad sign. I think that speaks to him being lazy and unmotivated, and I don't see that improving when he walks into camp and is gifted with the starting SG position either.

As for the summer league being a waste, as a fan I agree, but I'm sure the coaches and some players would disagree. The question is, if a player can't or won't dominate a league with inferior talent, shouldn't that cause some concern in the FO? You don't think so and you have a laundry list of excuses as to why not, but I think it should. The concern may be unwarranted in the end, but at this point denial will not make things better.

No interview, no physical exam, and no workout, and yet you select the player with the #4 pick? You are the team that's about to make this kid rich and you can't get this basic information? It's one thing if it's Davis and he doesn't want to workout for you because he knows he'll be gone before you pick, but Waiters had no such lofty expectations, so his refusal should have alerted the Cavs that there was something wrong.

It seems benny that you haven't been following my posts as closely as you should have been. I have said REPEATEDLY that I don't think you can get an accurate picture of how good or bad a player might be based solely on summer league play. What I AM saying is this, if a player is drafted #4 over all because he is a scorer, and yet that same player is unable to crack to top 50 in scoring average for THE SUMMER LEAGUE, it is a cause for concern. There's is always the chance that Waiters ankle and knee heal well, he gets into shape and becomes a good player, but that is more questionable with such a lousy performance against such inferior talent.

Yes benny, I would have preferred Jeremy Lamb. The same Jeremy Lamb who was 8th in summer league scoring average. The same Jeremy Lamb who is taller and has a longer wingspan, but it didn't have to be Lamb. I'd have been happy with Barnes too. The problem is, there are no do-overs. Waiters is who we're going to have on the roster when they break camp. I would like to hope that Waiters will justify his draft position but giving him a pass for the summer league is just ignorant.

I'm wondering if you've ever even seen an NBA game cinque. Lin wants to start, and he's being paid to do just that. We have a starting PG in Irving and he's a great one. Lin is not a good investment for THIS team.

You haven't been paying attention, phil. I have said all along that I don't place a great deal of stock in summer league play, good or bad, but what happens isn't completely worthless either. You have proclaimed that Waiters will be fine, which I guess gives you some peace of mind, but a more knowledgeable fan has every right to question how Waiters can be expected to excel in the NBA when he struggles badly in the summer league. I think there's ample cause for concern, not panic, but concern.

I'm not saying that Waiters, or any player, can be accurately evaluated based on summer league play. What I am saying is that if a player is taken #4 over all in a very deep draft because he's a "scorer," and then that player cannot deliver against the inferior talent present in the summer league is cause for concern, and to just ignore that inconvenient fact is foolish.

While I enjoy a good Mark Twain quote as much as the next guy, but I don't think it's germane to the discussion. Statistics are applied to evaluate and compare players. Waiters was drafted #4 over all be a "scorer." If he can't crack the top 50 in scoring, (and it's not may not, he flat out didn't) against the inferior talent in the summer league, I think that very much calls into question the Cavs draft approach.

Waiters has a bad ankle they didn't know about, and knowing how bad that ankle was MAY have altered their draft approach. There was no reason at all for Waiters to refuse to workout for a team drafting #4 unless he had something to hide. That fact alone should have alerted the Cavs to be wary of him, but they ignored it. That's not managing your risks, that's just being reckless. Whether Waiters becomes a serviceable pro or not won't change the fact that their approach to drafting him was wrong.

I think Waiters will be in better shape when the season arrives, but the Cavs not being able to work him out but drafting him anyways has been exposed as a flawed approach. Waiters couldn't even crack the top 50 in scoring average IN THE SUMMER LEAGUE. If we go into the season without any major changes, I think we'll still end up in the lottery, just drafting later.

I know Mary Kay is thinking 6-8 wins, but if the pundits are right and the Browns finish with the worst record, what will they do? Do they draft a franchise QB like Barkley, trade back for extra picks, or do they draft another postion?

My feeling is if you don't have a franchise QB, and if the Browns are drafting first Weeden isn't one, then you have to take one when the chance presents itself.

I'm a little surprised by that. I was surprised that the Celtics were looking to include him in a trade to start with, since the last I heard was that he was playing well in the Summer league. I wish he was a little taller, but he was able to shoot .378 from the NBA 3-pt line last year in limited playing time. He's at least worth a look. I'm kind of surprised that the Rockets are letting him go.