...I've heard Armstrong say 'one in three' chance of success on a recent Moon landing program. I've also seen a documentary back in 1985-86 which judged the chances of getting off the Moon and rendezvous with the orbiter of much, much less than that. (it was an old 1970s documentary).

Getting there was not really the concern. The real worry was getting back.

Consider that in order to dock with the orbiter, the small, one-engine lander had to blast off, achieve 63 miles in altitude and a speed of 4,000 mph to rendezvous. Though it's easier to attain such speeds in a lower gravity field, no atmosphere, that's still an amazing speed. Could the LEM really attain that speed and altitude from a dead stop on the surface, with limited fuel and one engine?

The answer to they mystery may be that although we went, those who landed might not have been able to return.
----
However, now, the amazing thing is that our current Moon landing plan is just a 'beefed' up version of the orbiter/lander scheme. This was a 'risky' plan, and allowed for no rescue or redundancy. The robust way to do it would be to have a space station built to orbit around the Moon and land and dock from there. This would allow for safer landing. But they're not doing this and are at the same level of 'risk', despite "better" technology, which makes little sense.

I can't see NASA approving a future Moon landing plan where the base risk is near 50%, and there's no way to provide rescue should there be a 'mistake'. The is no huge 'cold war' payoff. Failure would still be a huge blow to our rep and to NASA, though. So it's a high risk, low/no benefit mission, and a waste of money, just duplicating something that has allegedly been done already.

EVILYOSHIDA - it's a very good argument. for such a great achievement why isn't it commemorated in a major hollywood motion picture? we have 100 holocaust movies.. 100s of ww2 movies..

but mankind's greatest achievement.. we never made one

I've seen several movies about zombies and genetically engineered dinosaurs. By your logic, this must mean they're REAL!

I think EY is submtting a list of arguments some of which are merely suggestive and this is one of them.

Most of the doubts about the Moon missions being hoaxed, in whole or in part, come from a building up of suggestive 'evidence' (which is not proof). There are puzzling questions.

For example, several of the Astronauts had severe mental problems. Now, sure, dealing with fame isn't easy, but lots of people in Hollywood do it, even kids. In fact, one of the Astronauts actually went to a hypnotist and asked to be 'put under' because he didn't recall the Moon landing and excursion. (Edgar Mitchell).

So we have Mitchell - can't fully recall the mission, Michael Collins who can't recall seeing any stars (visually) but later says he does in a book published 10 years later, Armstrong - recluse who gives odd comments about 'truth's protective layers', and Aldrin, depressed alcoholic, and Bryan O'Leary saying he can't be 100% certain we went to the Moon and Grissom, Chaffee and White being killed (some say murdered) on the launch platform.

You'd think that any Astronaut who walked on the Moon would be in such an elite group that their life would be easy for them on return, getting great jobs and assignments and potential for making lots of money on lecture circuits or as consultants. Besides Aldrin in later years (he's just starting to show up on tv shows), nobody has done this.

I mean these were daredevils and test pilots. Yet several of them broke down mentally after the mission (and the danger) was over. Doesn't make sense. This causes some people to wonder if there wasn't more to it, if there wasn't something they weren't telling us. Maybe we're picking up on something else. Maybe we did walk on the Moon but some didn't make it back and this was covered up and fake photos and footage was created? It's understandable, but it creates doubt and suspicion.

People tend to lump it together and say 'you're an idiot if you think we didn't go to the Moon in the 60s', but that's not what conspiracy theorists are saying. They're saying 'we're picking up on something not being right, something happened they're not telling us'.

WidespreadPanicFor example, several of the Astronauts had severe mental problems. Now, sure, dealing with fame isn't easy, but lots of people in Hollywood do it, even kids. In fact, one of the Astronauts actually went to a hypnotist and asked to be 'put under' because he didn't recall the Moon landing and excursion. (Edgar Mitchell).

So we have Mitchell - can't fully recall the mission, Michael Collins who can't recall seeing any stars (visually) but later says he does in a book published 10 years later, Armstrong - recluse who gives odd comments about 'truth's protective layers', and Aldrin, depressed alcoholic, and Bryan O'Leary saying he can't be 100% certain we went to the Moon and Grissom, Chaffee and White being killed (some say murdered) on the launch platform.

OK, I have some time so here's a true story that happened to me. You can take it for what it's worth, but I swear this is a true account. This happened in the nineties. I can't really remember exactly what year my story begins, but it was between '95 and '98. I was in my mid thirties, living and working in Las Vegas. I had recently gotten into photography. Anyway, one day I was in a Walgreen's store getting prints made, and there, behind the counter, was a huge print of the city skyline. I had been thinking of getting some large prints made, so I asked the guy behind the counter if they could make me one as big as that one. He told me no, they didn't do that work, but he had the number of the man who made the print, and told me to call him. I'm not going to tell you his last name (for privacy reasons), but his first name was Mike. I called him and that's where my story really starts.

Mike was very nice, and told me that sure, he could make large prints. We arranged a time and I went to his home a few miles away, where he had his dark room. The first time I pulled up to his house, I was greeted by the unusual sight of a good size hovercraft in his driveway. I knew immediately that this guy was not your run of mill type dude. Or, at least I suspected as much, and, as it turned out, I was right. When I met Mike he was in early sixties. He was practically crippled from a car accident. But the man was as sharp as they come. Mike was a preeminent photographer in his day, as well as a (retired) U.S. Air Force Lt. Colonel. He still had his old flight suit and other military memorabilia lurking around, which he was nice enough to dig up and show me one day. It was a miracle he could find anything at all though, because the man was a serious hoarder. It didn't help that he received photographic equipment almost daily (sent to him free of charge by big name corporations for his review and possible endorsement). As a struggling working man spending way too much $ on my hobby, I would drool at his STACKS of equipment. It was, honestly, almost obscene. He had so much stuff it was literally piled in stacks that you had to wade through and around to get to the enlarger/printer, etc (the enlarger/printer he had, btw, was big enough to do photo sections for commercial billboards, which he also made). So, if you can picture a room about the size of a 4 car garage, filled with stacks of camera's and lights, old photos, negatives, every other piece of photographic paraphernalia you can imagine (much of it unused/unopened), as well as working equipment and various other “things”, you have a general idea of Mike's working conditions. To be fair, at least, the place was well lit.

Over the course of a few months Mike and I became good friends. He more or less took me under his wing, photographically speaking. He liked my work and developed and printed a lot of my images much cheaper that he should have. A few times he liked an image so much he processed it free. Mike loaned me equipment and it got to the point where I was, pretty much, a regular at his home. Over the next couple of years, as my photography “hobby” turned into a commercial business, I would spend hours at his place making photographs and hanging around. Usually his friend Gene was there too. Gene was a quiet, silver haired gentleman around the same age as Mike. Off to one side of the lab space was the actual darkroom. The darkroom was smaller, and I was not always in there when he was developing. Especially if he had his friend Gene over. Mike and Gene would disappear into the darkroom leaving me to my own devices in the lab area. During these times I would go through the piles of stuff, checking out his old photos of Mike Tyson or Hugh Hefner and the bunnies, or playing with one of his many camera's or gadgets. There was so much stuff it never got boring, at least not to me, and Mike didn't mind. I would ask him about whatever I found and he would usually tell me some story behind the photo or whatnot. Mike was never one to brag or spin a tale, he was a straight shooter and anything he told me invariably came from me asking a question. He was not one to offer much information, but he wasn't secretive either. For example, I asked him once about a plaque I found buried in the stacks that read N.E.S.T. He informed me that he used to be part of a the government's Nuclear Emergency Search Team (whatever the hell that is) but he didn't really elaborate on it. OK, if you've read this far you're probably asking yourself ; what the hell does any of this have to do with the Moon landing?? I don't blame you. I promise this all leads up to what happened...

Shortly before I moved from Vegas back east, I was over at Mike's house. I would be leaving in a week or so, so it was kind of a bittersweet night for us. We sat outside and drinking beers, I told Mike I would miss him and keep in touch, but I think both of us knew that we probably wouldn't be seeing each other again. Anyway in we went to the lab, to make pictures once more. I gave Mike my negatives and he went into the darkroom. I stayed in the lab and, as usual, poked through the stacks. What I found nearly sat me down on my ass. In the stacks of stuff was a roll of 70 mm b/w film negatives. This in and of itself is not particularly remarkable. The thing was, these were negatives images OF THE SURFACE OF THE MOON. At first I couldn't wrap my head around what I was seeing. OK, so Mike has negatives of the Moon...hmmm...then it started to sink in. THESE WERE NEGATIVE IMAGES OF THE LUNAR SURFACE. Not a film set (at least they looked authentic i.e. no obvious props, notations, etc. They looked pretty much exactly as you might expect, and a lot like the ones we've all seen). What the hell was this guy doing with negs of the Moon?? You might be rightly inclined to ask at this point. Well at least I was, and when Mike emerged from the darkroom. I did. And this is what Mike (last name omitted) Lt. Colonel and photographer told me:

(Disclaimer: This covo took place over 10 years ago, but this how I remember it)

Me: What are these? (Mike looks at the negs)

Mike: What do they look like? (classic right?)

Me: They look like pictures of the Moon

Mike: That's what they are.

He then proceeded to tell me that when he was in the Air Force, N.A.S.A. tapped him to PHOTOGRAPH THE MOON BEFORE THE APOLLO 11 MISSION.

He said that there were “several” classified Moon flights and landings before the first one that was publicized. He said that the fear of failure and embarrassment was too great not to make a few test runs, and that what I was looking at were the real deal. Not copies, fakes or phonies. According to my friend Mike, not only did we land on the Moon, he did personally, and he had the pictures to support his story. As I said, Mike was never one to spew nonsense, and I would never have heard the story had I not personally found the negatives and asked him about them. I do not how he ended up keeping the negs. He would not get into any details on that point even when I pressed him, except to say that what he told me was true. I believe him. You can decide for yourself, but my story is true. I moved back east soon after and I did talk to Mike a few more times after I got back. Before long though, we lost touch as I guess is all too common in life. I still think about him and Gene. Oh and did I mention Gene's last name? It's Cernan, and he was the last man to walk on the Lunar surface (Apollo 17). Or so we've been told!

Interesting story and it does seem to dovetail with the way we know the military to operate - i.e. doing secret missions in advance to those published.

But, I must remind you of the other problems with 'going to the Moon' - that is the failure rate of the three-stage rockets in the early 60s. We had so many failures at launch it was almost ridiculous. Then suddenly they seemed to start having successful launches. Some think that it was a different craft - not the powerful type needed to get to the Moon, but a less powerful rocket with less problems.

My contention all along has not been to insist we didn't go to the Moon. In fact, I'll simply say that 'something other than what we've been lead to believe happened' in those days. It may have been relatively 'easy' to GO to the Moon, but monumentally difficult to RETURN to Earth.

Note that the speed needed to match the Lunar Orbiter was 6 miles high and 4,000 mph. This was to be achieved by a little single engined craft (the Lunar Lander) within one orbit. IMO, this is impossible. The chances of 'going' may have been 1 in 3, but the chances of docking successfully using the Lander were on the order of 1 chance of success in 10,000.

So, pick your poison - did we go but not return? Are there dead astronauts on the Moon? Did we go but use stand-ins for Aldrin and Armstrong? Did we fake the whole thing or just one mission?

I don't know. But, as I say above, lots of high strangeness and IMO, it didn't occur as we were lead to believe.

Ok, I've never been one for eugenics...but instead maybe we can just set up a huge island, or one suitable portion of land, and all the 9/11 "Truthers," Moon-hoax and other conspiracy nuts can live there...that is until I guess their society implodes because everyone thinks everyone else is in on some implausible dumb-assed conspiracy.

Anyway, perhaps it would have a welcome winnowing effect of removing slow and gullible folks from the gene pool.

would any of you Moon Landing Believers have the NUTS to cross through BOTH Van Allen belts (the outer is larger and deadlier), then voyage towards the moon, at that point you would have ZERO protection from Galactic-Cosmic Radiation and SPE's (Solar Flares, Coronal Mass Ejections, etc which travel millions of miles per hour)?? Oh yeah and here's the kicker: the moon doesn't have an atmosphere to protect you...

I go back and forth on this issue. If we did not land on the moon, I don't know why someone like Edgar Mitchell, who clearly doesn't believe jack shit the government says, would lie on their behalf. He openly argues that UFO's are real, the government knows this and are covering it up. It seems illogical that he would then take part in government coverup himself and say he went to the moon when he didn't.

Given Edgar Mitchell's propensity to expose government secrets, I can't imagine him actually being part of another one.

after researching the moon issue for awhile, I think it is possible that people DID land up there and shot some footage.

I do not think the guys that said they went, really went there. At the time it must have been very risky and the failure rate was 50%. they woudl not have done it on live tv. that is where the main hoax is.

A part of me also thinks no one ever went there, but there is strong proof on both sides.

jcblass - I go back and forth on this issue. If we did not land on the moon, I don't know why someone like Edgar Mitchell, who clearly doesn't believe jack shit the government says, would lie on their behalf. He openly argues that UFO's are real, the government knows this and are covering it up. It seems illogical that he would then take part in government coverup himself and say he went to the moon when he didn't.

Given Edgar Mitchell's propensity to expose government secrets, I can't imagine him actually being part of another one.

RickRude - <strong>would any of you Moon Landing Believers have the NUTS to cross through BOTH Van Allen belts (the outer is larger and deadlier), then voyage towards the moon, at that point you would have ZERO protection from Galactic-Cosmic Radiation and SPE's (Solar Flares, Coronal Mass Ejections, etc which travel millions of miles per hour)?? Oh yeah and here's the kicker: the moon doesn't have an atmosphere to protect you...</strong>

The moon most definitely has an atmosphere.

And no i wouldn't travel to the moon. But here's the kicker: i never signed up to be an astronaut (a man or women trained to command, pilot, or serve on a spacecraft)

for me, the kicker is the deadliness of Space beyond our magnetosphere, radiation, extreme temperatures, Cosmic/Gamma rays, Solar wind/flares, Coronal Mass Ejections, and the 60s-70s were a Solar Maximum period which is deadly and destroys communications (even today)

Reply Post

“This is the official website of the Mixed Martial Arts llc. Commercial
reproduction, distribution or transmission of any part or parts of this website
or any information contained therein by any means whatsoever without the prior
written permission is not permitted.”