the united nation scandal and all other Watchtower Society scandals

I was recently talking to a JW elder at my job that I have been working at for over 20 years(he knows that I am DA'ed but still talks to me trying to get me to come back) and I brought up the UN scandal and all of the WTS scandals that are hitting the WTS. He said it does not surprise him that "apostates" would try and deceive many JW's with lies and 1/2 truths. I told him that I can get a printed copy of the UN NGO membership and that the WTS was a member for over 10 years. He just laughed it off and said that the WTS has done nothing wrong because they joined in 1991 as a NGO so they could use the UN library and used it for 10 years. But the UN started to change their policy and that is why they quit being a NGO member. He said that "apostates" don't tell the whole story only 1/2 truths. He also said that they printed a whole article on the child abuse problem within the WTS and how they had to disfellowship over 36,000 jw's for immorality including wife-swapping and homosexuality. I must admit this elder was sharp with his responses and it kind of stumped me. I have been out for so long I don't know what the society has printed in the pass years. Did JW's print an article in 1983 or 1984 admitting that they disfellowshipped over 36,000 jw's for child abuse, wife swapping and homosexuality? If this is true than the JW's have covered their tracks and kicked out bad associates. Would not this be the honorable thing to do? What are your thoughts on these answers(posters)? This elder said that JW's still feel that the UN is the beast of revelation and that has not changed. Is this true or was he just lying to me?

Um he is confused. He is mixing incidents, and rationalizing. The 36k number was pulled out of the air. They DF that many people every year or so for "immorality".

THe purging he was talking about did happen at bethel and a few other congos in the 80's one was in our area. THey also "purged" people by making more things DFable. For example bestiality was not a dfing offense. Married hetrosexual Sodomy was DFable but isnt anymore. Also child abuse/ incest was not dfable because children must honor their parents, and now it is. Not all of these changes happend in the 80's many of them came in the 50s-70s.

From what I hear in our circuit two counts of spousal abuse after a warning from the elders is dfable and the person is scriptually free to remarry. I just found this out last week from a relative that is an elder. It is a new policy that I assume they wrote in the margins of their elders books. So he may be talking about local changes not unilateral ones. The org is not homogenous it is a collections of fiefdoms. So he may be able to point at changes those local brothers were ordered to make, but that does not mean it was universal.

Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah?s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality.

What they don't tell you is that the vast majority of these are for adultery and fornication. I was involved in a child molesting case in 1983 and the person was not DF'd or even reproved publicly. A few years later they taunted their victims that they had lied to the judicial committee and felt they had never done anything wrong and so were not repentant. The elders on the judicial committee did not want to re-hear the case although there were 4 witnesses to this "confession."

The elders in one congregation may DF one molester only to have 20 other congregations sweep it under the rug.

Bestiality has been dfable since I believe the 60's. I don't feel like pulling the article. I hope I was making it clear that they switch sides when it comes to sex. For example if you are raped and don't scream it is fornication. If you are raped and don't scream it is not fornication. If you scream during fornication it is rape (yes i have seen this one put into practice). These two issues have been ping ponged every few months some years.

My grand father a wonderful PO said the bestiality change was a power keg back then. Brothers that had farms were almost DFed the WTS had to redefine what bestiality was because when they first made it a things like milking cows, using certain kinds of harnesses, giving animals suppositories, and assisting births were all bestiality because the shy city boys in NY broadly defined it as manipulating the genitals of animals. I assume the vague definition was used because explicitly explaining that people do engage in sex acts with animals was too taboo. They had to issue a new narrower policy.

My grand father a wonderful PO said the bestiality change was a power keg back then. Brothers that had farms were almost DFed the WTS had to redefine what bestiality was because when they first made it a things like milking cows, using certain kinds of harnesses, giving animals suppositories, and assisting births were all bestiality because the shy city boys in NY broadly defined it as manipulating the genitals of animals. I assume the vague definition was used because explicitly explaining that people do engage in sex acts with animals was too taboo. They had to issue a new narrower policy.

Yes that is absolutely correct. In fact that more specific definition was only given to the BOE's very recently believe it or not.

They added "...manipulating an animals genitals with lewd intent" With intent being highlighted. It was explained by the CO that some brothers who owned farms or bred dogs had been writing the society for clarification on this subject.

Booker-T, the real issue with the WTS being a NGO is that according to their own standards they committed spiritual fornication. Why they became a NGO is a 'red herring" since "why" doesn't excuse what they did. If you or I committed fornication, would having a "good" motive mean we were any less guilty of sin in God's eyes? Ask your elder friend to do some research on WT articles from the 1970's regarding Jehovah's viewpoint of "any" religious organization that has relations with the UN.

Booker-t...Elder bodies have talked and rehearsed these subjects and have nice short answers prepared to throw you off.

He just laughed it off and said that the WTS has done nothing wrong because they joined in 1991 as a NGO so they could use the UN library and used it for 10 years.(If there was nothing wrong with it why did they cancel their membership within one week of it being exposed in the Guardian Newspaper) But the UN started to change their policy and that is why they quit being a NGO member.(That may be true but it's not what is stated on the United Nations web site which placed information concerning the WT membership due to all the corespondance it had been receiving) He said that "apostates" don't tell the whole story only 1/2 truths.(He's never heard a whole truth yet so why confuse him now) He also said that they printed a whole article on the child abuse problem within the WTS and how they had to disfellowship over 36,000 jw's for immorality including wife-swapping and homosexuality.(Yes that's true as pointed out, this is an annual number who are df'd, the only other occasion of this happening was when Jah sent snakes to kill a crap load of his people and when he routinely sent a half dozen priests with swords through the camp to kill 20 or 30 thousand Israelites while they were having sex in their tents...man I hate camping..no privacy) I must admit this elder was sharp with his responses and it kind of stumped me. I have been out for so long I don't know what the society has printed in the pass years. Did JW's print an article in 1983 or 1984 admitting that they disfellowshipped over 36,000 jw's for child abuse, wife swapping and homosexuality? ( No sadly these are still routine pastimes among Jah's special people) If this is true than the JW's have covered their tracks and kicked out bad associates. Would not this be the honorable thing to do?(They do cover their tracks pretty well but it does not seem necessary because a faithful dub can be told anything and will turn bad into good whenever the Jah's visible org is connected to it) What are your thoughts on these answers(posters)? This elder said that JW's still feel that the UN is the beast of revelation and that has not changed. Is this true or was he just lying to me? (They have changed what they consider the various meanings and symbols in Revelation to be at least 4 times in the last hundred years so for that elder to say they still feel something or know something means nothing to me. If you were to say to him that a brother had just told you that the latest WT pointed out new light which identifies the Wild Beast of Revelation as (take your pick Jennifer Lopez, Maddonna or Michael Flatley Lord of the Dance) he would accept that as truth as well because it's from Gods chosen channel...no not PBS!)

He also said that they printed a whole article on the child abuse problem within the WTS and how they had to disfellowship over 36,000 jw's for immorality including wife-swapping and homosexuality. I must admit this elder was sharp with his responses and it kind of stumped me.

I don't think anyone would argue as to whether or not the Society DF's people for fornication, adultery, wife-swapping and homosexuality----they do and we KNOW they do. The problem is that they don't disfellowship people for pedophilia, unless there were two eye witnesses to the abuse, something that rarely, if ever happens. If this elder insists that they DO DF people for pedophilia, ask him for some known examples. Also, ask him if he watched Dateline, 20/20 or 48 Hours on the pedophilia problem within the Organization. If he says that Dateline is being run by Satan, ask him if he felt that way when Dateline exposed the pedophile problem within the Catholic Church a couple of years ago. Ask him if he knows about what happened to Barbara Anderson when she went public about the known abuse within the Organization.

This elder's not as clever as he thinks he is and he's a smooth talker and a "twister of words" if he's actually comparing consentual sex between two unmarried adults with some pig raping a child.