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jpmahala asks: "We had been using Groove internally at our company for quite some time (before the Microsoft buyout), and were interested in adding more users to the program. However, after clicking on the link to the store on Groove's website, I find a message from Microsoft that the product is no longer being offered. Following the link provided by Microsoft, I find that it is bundled into the Office2007 product now and it does not seem to be offered as a standalone product. I'm sad to see that sort of thing happen, and I am unwilling to upgrade everyone to Office2007 just for the sake of Groove. Is there any viable alternative out there?"

Check out http://www.getdropbox.com/ [getdropbox.com] . It hasn't launched yet, but is very a similar product: think rsync for Windows that's actually pleasant to use -- integrated into the shell, low-overhead automatic/continuous backup based on filesystem change notifications, compressed binary diffs, etc.

Full disclosure: I'm working on the product/service in the parent post -- but I feel the pain of no good integrated team sync/backup tool for Windows that also works with large files, large file sets, and doesn't require a PhD to use:)

Your best bet is probably to call a MS sales associate and tell them your situation. Maybe they can slide some licenses under the door, seeing that you're already a user and I'm sure your office already has full deployment of a suitable (ahem...::cough::) Office product.

In other words, if you want to keep your job, get that chip off your shoulder and start reading [microsoft.com].

And to the original poster, there is NOTHING like this in the open source environment unless someone developed an OpenOffice plugin for creating dynamic drupal sites and sharing seamlessly with a Jabber client.

What do you think? MicroSoft isn't looking for/. people as Users, but as (potential) employees. Or not.Unskilled users ARE their user base.Apple is going after unskilled users with money or folks who don't want to hassle with drivers/software/etc.Linux is great, but very specialized and lacks out-of-the-box integrated tools. Sure, you can write a script or pipe output, but that's besides the point. Most users (think Admin Assistants) want an

"They're just making it easier for the knucle-dragging, mouth-breathers of the world.And getting paid handsomely for it."

Highlighted and underlined. It's this fundamental disconnect between OSS and everyone else that keeps (and will contine to keep) OSS out of a lot of places. Just look at the list of Ask Slashdot's asking for an OSS solution to proprietary and at best the alternatives are an ill-fit, or at worst there's none at all despite years of asking. Elitism is it's own worse enemy.

It's this fundamental disconnect between OSS and everyone else that keeps (and will contine to keep) OSS out of a lot of places.

Really, as an extensive user of OSS software, I couldn't care less whether you use it or not. In fact, if we're ever in competition with each other, I'd even prefer that you didn't. While you're dealing with licensing hassles and BSA audits, we'll just keep chuggin' away.

Just look at the list of Ask Slashdot's asking for an OSS solution to proprietary and at best the alternatives are an ill-fit, or at worst there's none at all despite years of asking. Elitism is it's own worse enemy.

Well, if you want free open-source software that is exactly like some commercial offering, you're being unrealistic. Ditto if you think that OSS means that a corps of dedicated software professionals is supposed to drop everything to focu

Wow... It's one thing to insist on using closed, proprietary software for everything you do, but you seem positively angry that there are alternatives out there. I mean, someone offers you something for free, lets you and anyone else see the code fro themselves, and allows you to use, modify or customize it any way you want, and you act like you've just been slapped in the face.

I'm not the only one that missed all your points.I missed them because they're amazingly selfish, short sighted, and yes, angry.

If you don't like OSS, don't fucking use it. We don't want you. We don't need you to bitch about it, or the people that make it. Obviously, a lot of people DO like it, or it wouldn't be (according to them) the single-biggest threat to the biggest tech company in the world.

If it doesn't do what you want it to do, then just don't use it. I mean, I don't use sendmail because it do

Linux is great, but very specialized and lacks out-of-the-box integrated tools. Sure, you can write a script or pipe output, but that's besides the point. Most users (think Admin Assistants) want and need nice GUIs.

Lacks tools? One of the (many) reasons I switched to Linux is because I use a broad range of software and there's no way I could have afforded to duplicate under Windows what comes "out of the box" with any standard Linux distro. No crippleware, either.

And yes, you'll be surprised to learn that Linux has had pretty GUIs for quite some time now (as long as I can remember, anyway). I'd suggest that you update your FUD, but then it might lose its potency, no?

I think the key word here is "integrated." In my experience with Linux (I tried using it exclusively at home for two years, finally giving up and buying a Mac last year), the average distro is over-bloated with software selections and has very little integration. Sure, KDE offers KOffice, and most of their apps are well integrated. But to say that the set of apps that come with a Linux distro are "out of the box" integrated is overstating things at best.

if rsync was bundled into a browser file-saving interface, chat and web portal tool.

I saw a presentation on Groove a few months ago, and this is actually what I didn't like about it. What's with companies trying to reinvent the wheel? They're never going to build their own chat, messaging, etc tools that are as good as the standalone products. Why don't they focus on making the unique aspects of their product strong?

I did think the P2P file replication thing was a cool idea, although I can't see the company

We are in a very similar sticky situation as the original poster. We have a LOT of Groove 3.1 licenses and we want to buy more, but can't.

Your upgrade path is Groove 2007-- as a previous poster noted, there is a stand-alone version.

A couple of HUGE BIG ENORMOUS caveats:

1. If you migrate your existing Groove account over to Groove 2007, it will completely disable your Groove 3.x account. You _CAN_ get it back by re-activating (like you did when you FIRST got Groove), but then that deactivates your Groove 2007!

There is ABSOLUTELY no way to have a single Groove account coexist in 3.x and 2007.

2. I am absolutely unsure about the way that Groove 2007 is licensed w.r.t. the way it was in Groove 3.x days. In 3.x, your license was for YOU-- you could install it on multiple machines, provided that they were all logged in as you. So, for example, my coworker would have Groove installed on his home machine and his work machine, and they were set up to share folders, etc. That was part of the point.

In Groove 2007, I believe that you have to buy a copy for each computer, and at $250 a pop, that's not cheap!

3. Groove 2007 DOES appear to be able to participate in Groove 3.x, unlike some other reports I've read. (it worked for me).

However, Groove 2007 is unable to CREATE a 3.x workspace, so your new Groove 2007 users will not be able to make workspaces that your Groove 3.x users can access. They would have to ask a 3.x user to create a workspace for them.

4. (this is the deal killer for us) Groove 2007 is completely unable to use TeamDirection Project-- the tool that was bundled with Groove 3.0 Professional.

This is a travesty. We have a LOT invested in TD Project. I'm sure a lot of people do. Microsoft can say all they want about how the upgrade path for that is Microsoft Project Server, but that's complete shit.

Oh, and btw-- yes, there is TeamDirection Project 2007 for Groove. HOWEVER, it is NOT implemented as a workspace tool-- it is a SEPARATE tool that cannot integrate in any way with Groove 3.x.

5. Lastly, note that the links are gone to install TD Project if you don't already have it. There's a way to do it, but it's a big pain in the ass. More shit.

I guess that's enough bitching for now.

I'm not sure what to tell you. We've essentially given up on the idea of Groove 2007. We will not be upgrading to it. We got a crazy "last time buy" of Groove, so we have a few more left, but we are looking for an alternative, too.

We MIGHT end up going with some sort of Sharepoint-based system, but I dunno.

2. I am absolutely unsure about the way that Groove 2007 is licensed w.r.t. the way it was in Groove 3.x days. In 3.x, your license was for YOU-- you could install it on multiple machines, provided that they were all logged in as you. So, for example, my coworker would have Groove installed on his home machine and his work machine, and they were set up to share folders, etc. That was part of the point.In Groove 2007, I believe that you have to buy a copy for each computer, and at $250 a pop, that's not chea

The poster wants alternatives, not damage control.Here's my wish... A Wikisync Virtual Machine Appliance. It doesn't exist yet, but here's how it would work.

You download a 70MB virtual machine and start it up, then onfigure it to point to a master wiki at your business. Everyone can contribute to their own local copy (offline or on), and it will sync with the master wiki when available. But, there's more, you can "share" (SMB) a local directory on your Mac/PC/Linux box to the VM and it will rsync files f

As one who's vaguely but not overly familiar with Groove, I'd be interested in hearing the "business case" for it. What does it do particularly well, and for what types of projects/needs has it been particularly successful? That might make it easier for the rest of us to suggest alternatives.

Glad you're contributing today. Perhaps you could, I don't know, Google for what it is.

I have no intention of getting into a flame war with you, just wanted to point out that Googling for Groove returns nothing but dross, from the Microsoft site:

Office Groove 2007 is a collaboration software program that helps teams work together dynamically and effectively, even if team members work for different organizations, work remotely, or work offline. Working in Groove workspaces saves time, increases productivity, and strengthens the quality of team deliverables. Office Groove 2007 is just one example of how the 2007 Microsoft Office system helps teams and organizations collaborate more effectively.

Ummmm, right.

I had the same problem when wanting to find out what Sharepoint actually does (eventually had to take the online test drive [microsoft.com]). Same problem with this product, why would we Google for the marketdroid speak when we have the near-unique opportunity of hearing it from the people who're using it?!

Honestly, brow-beating people for not searching on Google is not often helpful.

As someone who is currently looking into creating an ODF Document Portal [slashdot.org] I would be very interested in hearing about the features of Groove that real users find useful.

I know plenty about Ozzie, I know how to Google (you sanctimonious prick), I've sat through marketing presentations on Groove, I've read about it, I'm even about to load it on my machine in a few weeks. I've also just completed a day-long "product roadmap" (supposedly a 2- to 3-year forward view) with our Microsoft account reps and had to castigate them for not mentioning Groove once the entire day until I asked them about it.

Groove {is} used by legions of organizations from GlaxoSmithKline to the U.S. Army. Being able to edit documents and then return them to a shared folder in one go is great. So is the fact that what you have on your computer is synchronized with other team members in real-time so

Plz also note the number of features *removed* from Groove 3.x! E.g., I heavily used the 'take Sharepoint sites offline' feature to take documentation with me while working offline but it has vanished from the product. http://blogs.msdn.com/marco/archive/2005/12/02/499 513.aspx [msdn.com] will give you more information.

I personally contacted our Microsoft representative and explained him very carefully why I think he sucks/they suck. Taking over Groove and consequently destroying it while integrating it with Office

Looks alright and the Linux support is nice, but it's yet another proprietary product that promises that the basic version will be forever free, or until they sell out to Microsoft. IIRC Groove made similar promises in the early days about their personal edition.

I'm one of the founders/developers of a product that's an alternative to Groove -- CipherShare [provensecu...utions.com]. We're a very small company, but the product has been around for about 7 years now, and we have some pretty sizable customers (Bechtel, MDS Sciex).

We have: a very clear, simple interface; zero sensitive data exposure on server (we have a reseller who will host for you, if need be, and won't be able to see your data); support for very large files; secure chat; optional account/password recovery; file-type-agnostic document handling; auto-delta-versioning; etcetera. Check out the site and email us if you'd like a demo (we can host it for you, or you can host it yourself).

I've been using it since version 1, and have been actively monitoring the web, Mac and Linux markets to see if anything else could be compared. For a while, the competition seemed to be SharePoint on the surface, which provides a way to share "workspaces" with documents, calendars, discussions, etc. in a portal. But this was limited to working inside a firewall, unless you wanted to set up a special configuration with external connectors and adding outside people to your internal directory system (a no-no in most IT shops I visit).

Currently, the biggest competitor (if you can call it that) is simply email, because of its ubiquity. Try to convince anyone to give up their email for a month and see what happens. Fortunately, I tested this scenario in Groove a few years ago, and it was a dream come true! No spam. No irrelevant messages (because it is intentionally challenging to use it as a simple email alternative). Just work. And only with people I chose to work with. It was rather Feng Shui. Everything was simple. All files were in one place. Nobody ever asks "did you get that file I sent?" or "where's the latest forecast?" - it's all just there on your system. Everything was secure. Peace of mind. Never had to set it up - it just worked on installation. But now that I'm in a different job and have to work with non-Groovy people, I'm stuck working in the archaic email days once again...:( To compare, it would like people who use email today starting to handwrite letters to each other...it's that bad!

Groove provides several key components that put it ahead of any web-only technologies. The following can also be used for a business case:

1. It's a rich client in a Web 2.0 world - which means you will see people running it on an airplane (also, incidentally, where you don't see any Web apps running)

2. It runs a distributed directory, so people can collaborate across organizational boundaries without requiring IT to modify directory systems (a challenge that has been vexing the industry for at least 15 years now)

3. It navigates across firewalls to create a "live" peer-based connection between Groove users - features are presence, awareness, instant messaging, and a whole raft of collaborative tools like file sharing, calendars, discussion threads, and customizable forms.

4. Security is built-in from the ground up - every user is authenticated, which has proven to effectively limit spam, viruses and other malware, and all work is protected with FIPS-approved 192bit AES encryption on disk and over the network.

5. Trust. Only the people designated to read information you choose to share will have the keys to unlock it. That means that an errant sys admin cannot view Groove workspaces or intercept data intended for another recipient.

6. Synchronization. This actually should have been first, since at the core, Groove is a great big XML message switch. Here's where you'll find the patents. Groove has a very robust synchronization engine that ensures that all documents, files, messages, changes to a workspace, etc. are synchronized with all members, whether they are online or offline. This is a hugely complicated endeavor that the Groove team has been working on since the Lotus Notes days - and they KNOW how to do it right.

Also note that it was developed by Ray Ozzie and his team of about 125 developers over 5 years and with over 5 million lines of code. It's more like an operating system on top of Windows, with identity, authentication, storage, synchronization, security, and communications all rolled up into one app. The original intent was to make it a development platform on which people could create their own collaborative applications, like the Team Direction project and Information Patterns' geo-mapping applications.

After the MS acquisition and the decision to add it to the Office Enterprise suite as a premium business offering (since business is the real focus of the application - cross-organization,

I wouldn't say it "improves" on AFS at all, but then again, it didn't have AFS in mind during development.

Groove is definitely NOT a distributed filesystem, even if some might consider it as having those capabilities. For that purpose, I personally use http://www.foldershare.com/ [foldershare.com] just to keep large volumes of files in sync between my personal and family systems, including across firewalls.

Let me try to boil it down a bit further to illustrate. Groove is client software, much like an email client, that all

I've followed Groove since day one, when you could download their beta/trial version to play around, and thought it was a very innovative product. Ray Ozzie used to proselytize the concept at every opportunity--I think I still have a copy of DDJ somewhere with a many-page article about the XML architecture of Groove. They wanted it to be an open platform for the development of P2P collaboration tools. That's why a lot of people were quite taken aback when they sold themselves to Microsoft and Ray Ozzie beca

uradu - i agree with you. but there may be an alternative route than that typified by microsoft. what if the core tenents of groove (i.e. authentication, communications, synchronization, security, etc.) become core services in the stack, but are loosely coupled with other infrastructure services...a very different MS could emerge indeed! by the way, Ray is now "chief software architect", which means he can help all development teams to march in a coordinated direction. he's a bright guy - let's give him the

Folks - Groove does nothing really new or that you can't get elsewhere. It's just that it encompasses the features of all these technologies (and more) in an integrated and user-friendly environment.

Elsewhere [slashdot.org], someone suggested using a VM to package an assortment of "Groove-like" technologies. Right now, I'm running VMware's free Virtual Server to do something similar, only I'm running "single-user" servers for Gallery and WordPress. It's a great way to encapsulate web services, especially since it side

Capability wise it sounds a lot like Lotus Notes/Domino packaged with their Sametime instant messaging application. Considering that Ozzie was the father of Notes that's not surprising. Any idea how Groove stacks up against Notes as far as features and usability go?

Hi, I am the founder/CTO of Collanos, and we are offering something quite similar to Groove. We are a small start-up and don't have $150 Mio. to invest, but we do have talented developers and came already a long way. Our main differentiators are:
- Multi-platform: Runs on Win, Mac, and Linux's
- All P2P and built atop Sun's OSS JXTA.org libs
- Object-oriented, not Tool-oriented, i.e. you can structure your workspaces and mix and match any object type (e.g. group discussions are objects, not a another tool

Very nice Franco - I tested it with an old Groove user who is already familiar with the concepts. It looks like a very nice alternative, and it runs on Linux and Mac! I do have a couple of questions or feedback - whichever you prefer.

1. Information on disk was not encrypted - is this planned?

2. I could not tell if the information was encrypted over the wire. Again, planned?

3. Where is the data stored? Clients only, or is it ever on a server unencrypted?

Thanks. Good to see you are test-driving it and I can gladly provide more details:

It actually *should* be encrypted. If it is not, this might have slipped during the build. I will look into it. We ran tests with both options: using disk encryption from the RDBMS and applying our own encryption algorithm to the content. We also changed our embedded database some time ago, from QED to Derby (Apache project).

Small addendum to point 1: Currently the "replicas" (i.e. the change units that need to be replicated between the peers) are managed in persistent queues and indeed unencrypted. This are temporary queues until transmission completes. The RDBMS itself is PW protected and the transport is - as already mentioned - DES/AES encrypted. We will likely make the local storage encryption an option in the future so that users can switch on/off based on preferences. Handling of large files will be much faster with no

Hi, We are working on a platform independent alternative to Groove. Beta version of Collaber will be released soon(one or two months). If there is any alternative to Groove then Collaber will be the top in such list. It has so many features exactly similar to Groove. Collaber uses Eclipse for its GUI.All the concepts of Groove are same with the Collaber. Workspace,Tools, Accounts, Contacts, Messages etc.

The main advantages of collaber is its open architecture. Unlike Groove 2007 you can develop you own tool