We cannot alienate anyone anymore. We need to ban everyone possible together. BYBers have money and money is what we need to fight for the survival of this breed. Yet rescues fight with breeders, etical breeders fight with bybers, blue owners fight with red, amstaff with APBT, UKC with ADBA, You name it and it is causing separation of ONE BIG COMMUNITY.

I know it is hard to get past the propaganda and see what I am saying. I am not saying support the BYBers. I am saying stop fighting them and join together with them under a common cause.

Its true eliminating the BYBer might solve BSL if it had happened 20 years ago but it is too late. We have one hope to presserve the future of the breed and that is to unite as one community. Blue, red, rescue, BSL, breeder, conformation, working, game, pet, EVERYONE!

Oweing this thought process to various individuals including Odnarbo the idea was spawned that the National American Pit Bull Terrier Association is a member driven Association that is directly associated with the United Kennel Club.

The UKC controls APBT registration to the tune of about 150,000 APBT per year (including litter, transfers, SDR, ILP etc).

The idea is that if we can boister the strength of the NAPBTA by fueling it with members dedicated toward fighting BSL that we could leverage the UKC and working with them and through them we could do several key points.

1. Through working with the UKC we can send out requests to all APBT owners to join the NAPBTA. This futher increases the strength of the Association.

2. Through the same process we could send out education materials to all owners. This was the idea behind the growing Encyclopedia of the APBT. How to care for the APBT in the modern age!

3. Working with the UKC we could establish a BSL fee on every APBT (heck maybe on every targeted breed) registration, transfer of ownership, Single dog registration, litter registration etc.

4. We could use this accumulation of BSL funds to promote research and to support Lobby efforts. imagine a $5 extra fee tacked on to those 150,000 APBT interactions! We would have just a little bit of power then!!!

5. The UKC has a lobbiest already and adding a few more to the mix using these funds would not hurt.

6. We could enact changes to promote more responsible breeding, promote CGC (or a UKC version of it) for pit bulls. etc etc.

Because the NAPBTA is member driven we would all get the credit for it's success!

OK so all of you have APBTs or even if you dont. Join the NAPBTA http://www.napbta.com ILP all your unregistered dogs as APBT, Single register your ADBA or AKC dogs. Let's drive membership in the NAPBTA up to 1000 members then we will have some real power to enact changes from within the infrastructure of registered dogs.

What happened to slow down that 150,000 dogs registered per year? How about working with AKC to find some ethic limiting registrations of litters and get the point that we are overpopulated with pit bulls?Personally I don't see myself being involved with someone who wants to collect fees only but avoid to put down their feet to stop overbreeding.Who cares if these breeders pay fees and yet keep breeding? Yeah you can put some money together and fight BSL in a more evident way but thousands of dogs are still added to this overpopulated world.When AKC and any other registries will take responsability for what they are doing to the breed then I will happily join them.

I'm all for NAPBTA getting some real breed education and support programs going (rallying against BSL, fighting irresponsible breeding, charging higher litter fees, etc; your suggested changes to the standard had me applauding; I'd love to see a national, concerted rescue effort get going, with the NAPBTA linking up with legit rescues, like Spindletop which I know you guys already support). We've needed a breed club that took a real stand for the dogs for a long time.

I also agree that the APBT world is having a difficult time getting its act together and rallying for the breed, and that that is hurting our cause. BUT, I won't join forces with any unethical breeders anytime soon. They are KILLING my breed. To say we need to join forces with the very people who are causing all our problems to begin with is backwards thinking. I turned down membership with a new organization that seemed promising because the person running it was an unethical breeder. Just today, I turned down FREE graphic and logo design because the person who owned the company also bred Gotti/Razor's Edge dogs. I mean it when I say I don't support bad breeders. I have a difficult time supporting any organization or individual if they take even an indifferent attitude, let alone one of "we must embrace them". I know where you are coming from here, and I certainly don't think that NAPBTA will be actively patting bad breeders on the back. BUT, I do think that saying we need to "join forces" with those bad breeders is a misguided statement.

It is because the breed clubs/registries as a whole have been so lax in speaking out against these bad breeders, haven't promoted proper breeding practices, railed against bad owners, or fought BSL that we are in such dire straights. What if, today, the ADBA and the UKC enacted really stringent registering rules; limited litter registrations; took some money from every entry fee and registration and applied it to an anti-BSL campaign; set up stringent guidelines for breeders like these:

I want to see the people who are supposed to be the ones protecting and serving the breed actually living up to their duties. I'm psyched that we may get what we so desperately need in the NAPBTA. But "joining forces" with those who are doing the most harm to our breed isn't the way to go about anything. Ask for support, promote the org for what it is/will be, and whoever wants to send in that $15, great! More money for the cause! But be careful how you promote and who you say you are "joining forces" with....

You see that is the point! Please read through to the end as this is not an attack on you or your nice and articulately posted discussion but I also want to make a point!

There are a million reasons why the leaders of the community will not like this idea.

Idealistic, I'm better than them, propaganda!

Upon studying books on psychological warfare, it is well understood that the absolute best weapon to use against your enemy is to provide them with a reason to hate each other! Maybe PTA provided us with reasons to hate each other! Maybe they are on all of these forums derailing any and every effort and unity?

Maybe they own pit bulls and seek out ways to derail and segregate and incite discontent about every little thing!

Hey if we cannot join together then pTA and all of their legislators will take care of your hatred of Razors Edge dogs for you. No problem stick your nose in the air and let it happen! There wont be RE dogs Gotti, Roki, Lar-san, Gaff, Larum or any other line!

If we cannot stand together then we cannot stand!

Keep making excuses and keep up the unwillingness to look outside the propaganda box you stand on (not you specificaly but in general) and nothing will happen!

Do I disagree with the views on the types of breeding practices you describe? NO but I am unwilling to lose my dogs because I think another line looks out of standard or because joe blow breeds dogs to make money!

I bet if just one other community leader like you stepped up and got behind this we might save this breed! Think of sending your pamphlet in color (paid for) to all registered dog pit bull owners. All it takes is momentum. Save the breed then work on codes of ethics to preserve it!

To consider it the other way is to say "lets save the dying guys leg so it wont get amputated while he bleeds out from the hole in his chest".

This breed has a whole in its chest and we are worried about the crushed femur!

Last edited by matrix on January 26th, 2006, 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

Why not join me in the promotion of this idea? Why not help convince other community leaders that this might work.

Save the breed, I say that through the NAPBTA and UKC we could send out your pamphlet though the nAPBTA and UKC paid for by the money raised, Get lobbying started, get a handhold on BSL, then we can get back to bashing in the heads of overbreeders. In the meantime we can take some of their money and use it for a higher cause!

Last edited by matrix on January 26th, 2006, 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

This is very interesting. I can understand both sides. I don't want to be associated with the scum of our breed but what else can be done? We can't stop them, all we can do is try to educate them & if this is what it will take to make them listen & understand, maybe it is worth a shot. And at the same time, unite for one cause, educate the public along with them.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

I'm on board. I do have one concern...it has been said many times by many people that the only folks who like pit bulls are dog fighters....and/or that rescues are *really* just fronts for dog fighting. What happens when one of the game-doggers we're on board with get's busted? Does our effort get derailed because we are associated with dog fighting? Hmmmm...

At this point, I see what you mean though Scot...though I have my concerns, without a full force effort we won't have to worry about being associated with dog fighters because we won't have dogs. That being said I'm also pretty sure the UKC (and NAPBTA?) have rules the explicitly state any known dog fighters will be banished to hell for all eternity, or something like that.

Why not join me in the promotion of this idea? Why not help convince other community leaders that this might work.

Frankly I'm tired. I'm involved in 2 other projects right now that are having a difficult time getting off the ground. The bottom line is, no one wants to do anything. Or no one can agree on anything. I am very close to going solo and forgetting about rallying ANYone. I think I waste more energy trying to get people to stand up for the APBT, then actually going out and DOING something FOR the breed. I know several really good, dedicated people in the breed that bust their asses. But only a few.

If you want NAPBTA to rally against BSL, and you want to join forces with a bunch of unethical breeders, go ahead. Meanwhile, they are pumping out bad dogs...the dogs that are biting people and prompting the BSL to begin with.

Make no mistake that the bad breeders are the number one problem in the breed. We don't need to join forces with them, we need to stamp them out. If you think my objecting to the likes of Mugglestons Pit Bull Farm or a bazillion other horrid breeders means I'm "sticking my nose in the air", oh well. I become more and more disillusioned by the people invovled with this breed every single day.

I'd love to be really involved in a good, solid PUREbred APBT org. But the way things are right now, I won't give any money to the STCA nor NAPBTA. When either org decides they want to really stand up for the breed and work towards some changes, then maybe I will send them a membership fee.

Fighter and byb'er are given all the attention because the responsible owners don't stand up and fight enough for the breed.

I beleive that the number of responsible owners far outweighs the irresponsible ones. If the RO's stand up they will make a huge difference.

NNY Bulldoggers was established for that reason. RO's feel stronger when they have a voice as a group with other RO's. We speak to the media. We are holding responsible dog owner events like the CGC and microchip clinics, etc.

But that's only one level of involvement.

I support the American Dog Owners Alliance and the Pit Bull Owners Alliance. I am the legislative liason to my local AKC club in order to educate other breeds owners of BSL. I am strongly considering getting involved with the NAPTA.

A strong unified voice is needed to speak to the politicians and to write checks in order to lobby the people who make the laws. This is vital.

Scott, would it help if my pit bull club was a UKC breed club as well as a member of the NAPBTA?

I'm all for NAPBTA getting some real breed education and support programs going (rallying against BSL, fighting irresponsible breeding, charging higher litter fees, etc; your suggested changes to the standard had me applauding; I'd love to see a national, concerted rescue effort get going, with the NAPBTA linking up with legit rescues, like Spindletop which I know you guys already support). We've needed a breed club that took a real stand for the dogs for a long time.
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Mary the club used to try and support more rescues but then it wasn't enough. They appointed Spindletop as the Official rescue in 2001 I think it was (years are all smushing together, National was in WA that year and out here after that) and it has been a more effective use of the club's funds. NAPBTA's pockets aren't that deep and are only as deep as membership fees. The rescue situation will stand as is or a lot of people will be up in arms.

As to the rest NAPBTA has no real power. It isn't a true governing body with any clout in UKC. It may have developed some under Fred had the board bulldozed through the roadblocks, but right now it has none. Wayne Cavanaugh might consider having the club play a more active role but do something to hurt UKC's bottom line? Nope. Registration's where it's at.

Heck I can't find anyone to fill the last seats on the board of The Cuddles Foundation. In this whole breed there is no one? It may just go general canine at this point, the atty. is looking into changing the paperwork with the IRS and stuff. I may just say chuck the whole thing here too. Why bother to set a health foundation up to study diseases in a dying, illegal breed?

Most of you have been in the breed longer then I have so the burn out factor hasn't effected me yet.

At times I can get pretty down about the future of this breeds as well but then I think of the dogs. Pit Bulls don't give up....even when they're losing. I feel I need to be the same way for them. We can't give up.

Karen, I understand your frustration in forming the Cuddles Foundation.....TRUST me I also know that the NAPBTA doesn't have any money or power right now. But they don't need money or power to at least get some good education campaigns going. To take a strong stand AGAINST bad breeding. Then maybe they'd get some support from the community at large. I personally wouldn't join right now with the "let's join with the bad breeders, gamedog (dog fighters) breeders, etc" attitude.

Look at the Doberman Pinscher Club of America....they have a whole committee devoted to education on the albino Dobe fad. They actually have a database that lists all dogs that are descendants from the two albino Dobes originally registered with the AKC. They are letting people know that this isn't normal, it's bad for the breed, breeders who produce such dogs are ruinous for the breed. What if, to start small, the NAPBTA makes a public statement regarding merles. Then what if all these allegations about the mutt dogs being registered by monster "pit bull" breeders actually was fully investigated. If all those pesky legalities about naming names get in the way, allude to these bad breeders. Make strong statements, set up codes of ethics, just TAKE A STAND for the breed!

Is THIS OK??? I counted I think 6 breedings, plus one already on the ground:

They said they "have" to charge up to $5000 a pup because it is the only way they can "break even" after all the "health checks". HAHA, ok, sure.

Oh, but we need to "put aside our differences" and join forces with these idiots because it'll be the only way to 'save' our breed. Some of these people care but are extremely ignorant, and the rest DON'T give a crap. The ignorant ones are the ones that may be willing to join in a campaign to save the breed, but what good is any campaign if we don't let these people know how far off the mark they are with regards to breeding?

I bet some of the high-profile rescue groups would sit up and take notice if the NAPBTA really took a serious stand against bad breeding. Maybe then the gap between the registries/breed clubs/breed world and the rescue world would start to close. You're not going to find many (respectable) people deeply involved with rescue getting on board right now. Trust me. But what if the NAPBTA stood up against bad breeding, and set up a rescue committee? Joined forces with responsible rescues with a goal to "clean up streets", set up programs in shelters, help rescues do a better job by offering guidelines and maybe help from a fund that could be set up? What if?

The APBT has NO ONE. Do you realize? Their "breed clubs" do nothing to protect the breed. I really applaud Scot for trying to make some changes, I just think he and the NAPBTA as a whole needs to be nudged in a certain direction. And if they do end up heading in that "right direction", I will do my best to get involved.

Who has run for office because the proposal for temperament changes were being ignored? ME

Who found a way to get 30 more members last year? ME

Who is in direct contact with Mark, Wayne and the Greenwoods? ME

But I can only do this much and the next level requires a serious level of support from within the NAPBTA.

If as a first step, on the public document describing what the breed is, do you not feel it worth $15 to see fearful and aggressive temperaments at the top of the list as the PRIMARY DISQUALIFICATIONS?

Currently the presiding "GUARD" (ie those who are members) are not gonna like having fearful temperament a disqualification (any type of fear AND aggression). Half the dogs in the ring are white eyed and tail tucked when judges approach! These dogs get DQ'd then they cant be bred and their pups cant be registered!

The current officers are going in the right direction, but without support the UKC sees the NAPBTA as a bunch of pitstaff vs APBT monkeys.

Frankly the orgs are in abundance but none of them will join with the others.

I have heard in this thread mention of 3 other orgs I havnet heard of before. I find it admirable that as individuals people want to build something for a good reason! But that is where it ends. "an Idea for a collars across america, a march, a pit bull advocate movie, and a paypal donate to my good cause button"

Hell I am guilty of that. I sit in my Ivory "matrix org" tower and think my efforts are going to "make a difference". Truth is, if I want to really be honest about things, "my org is just another org". A few people might click on my "donate and sponsor APBT conformation's education mission" ad a few people might click on "The other guys org donate to my glorious mission button".

With the NAPBTA it is only a yearly membership fee and then lending your voice when we approach UKC and ADBA about the help needed. $15 and lend me your support without worrying that a BYB might join the association as well.

I never asked for anyone to "get along" or "agree with" or "condone" or "protect" or "not try to educate" the RE, MUGGLE, southern, add a million others here et al.

If muggles joins the NAPBTA with $15 and they say "STOP BSL" do you disagree with that? If every litter from a kennel over 2 per year is charged an extra $500 to register would you HATE THAT IDEA?

So for the first step, All I asked was ignore everything else and just focus on ONE THING! SAVE THE BREED!

To do that we need "CAPITAL" to get that, we cannot rely on a "donate button" But we can take the overbreeders money from them and use it not only to save the breed but as we go along we can inact changes to modify their behavior.

I agree with what you're trying to do, I'm just confused by your specific mention of bad breeders and the need to bury the hatchet with those we (the ethical/responsible Pit Bull community) oppose. If NAPBTA is going to take a stand against such breeders, I'm all for it. But the way the proposal was originally presented had it sounding like we should just send money in and join forces with EVERYone, so we can rally against BSL. You're not going to put a gun to anyone's head to join, nor will you turn away $15 for a membership. If someone wants to join because they believe in the org's ideals, great! Don't launch into the whole "we even want BYBs and other bad breeder types to join hands with us! Let's stop pointing fingers!" It lessens your credibility. If you laid out your specific plans/position statements for the org, and I liked what I saw, I would join. Right now there doesn't seem to be any organization and I don't really know what my money is going towards.

What you need to do first is lay out your position statements. Next you need some codes of ethics. Something like, um, I dunno.....THESE:

If you want to interpret this and twist it so that there is a pretend ethical monster hurdle about WHY people shouldnt support it then that is fine! I hope others reading this see that I continue to say this is also a way to affect that issue too!

I said in evey single post that the goal is ONLY to unite the entire community behind ONE SINGLE CAUSE! STOP BSL!

If you want to pick out and continue using the fact that a handfull of "bad breeders" might also be involved then why continue to post on the subject? It sounds to me like your only goal is to stop someone elses efforts to save the breed.

Tell you what I can make two more positive ideas! Run for NAPBTA office, get all your supporters to join and vote for you as the president! The office is open this year! YOU CAN THEN SAVE THE BREED by posting a set of production ideals on the NAPBTA website.

Heck if it will make you join and support the idea of fighting BSL Ill throw those ideals at the other officers and board members today! How's that? Ill support your idea you support mine?