by bac Not every wrong is evil. And, I do not feel that Edward was evil.

So bac, how do you justify your view of Edward given that he has committed evil acts multiple times? That does not seem rational to me?

For me it is a current state of evil. I believe that people can do evil things, make bad choices, even kill and be an evil person. However, if that person today is a changed person, has decided that those things were evil and wants to be a better person, then (and I am not the one to judge on real people) that person may no longer be an evil person.

In Edward's case, he was evil when he was murdering, I see what you are saying there. He was evil. At the time that we meet him in the books, he is no longer evil. He is really trying to be a good person.

I believe that every person has the opportunity (whether they take it or not) to make a better choice today than they made yesterday. They may be able to become a much better person and leave their evil behind. They may still have to pay consequences for their acts, but they may no longer BE and evil person.

I don't look at this as Edward is evil or a villain. A villain in my mind is a person who embraces evil and stays that path. Which in my mind brings up the question of redemption. If we had met Edward during his "killing" years, had we 'seen' him during that and the time afterward, how would we feel about him then? He embraced the nature of being a vampire, however, his humanity (or what was left of it depending on your opinion) wouldn't allow him to feed indiscriminately. Because of his mind reading abilities, he sought out the human predators. He was in a sense, an evil that preyed on evil. Does that make him good, no. Like the conundrum of Minority Report, is a person evil because they plan to do evil things, or are they evil once they commit the act? How can you punish someone who thinks about doing something wrong when they can and have the ability to change their mind at the last minute? Nothing is absolute. Now, Edward, I'm sure, killed some people who had already committed vile acts and were planning their next. Does that absolve him of murder, only he can answer that question or the deity he prescribes to. He did break the law in that there is a law of the land that we as citizens of it must abide by. Now, do we consider the Vamps under the laws of man? Even though Edward (and please take into consideration I have not read the Midnight Sun excerpts) "embraced" the evil, let's take the point that he couldn't live with himself in that lifestyle. He only lasted a few years in it before he went back to being a "veggie" vamp. So I think the question of redemption and self worth comes into play. Edward thinks himself a monster, not just because he embraced the evil side for a short while, but because it is the nature of the vamp to kill. He tries to be more than a monster by not preying on humans of any sort and yet, still defines himself as "evil."

My best friend's father was a police officer. Was, because he is retired/on disability. The disability being that he was called to a domestic disturbance. The husband was threatening the wife and my friend's father with a knife and refused to comply. He was forced to shoot the man. Unfortunately the man died. My friend's father was plagued with nightmares and guilt even though he was absolved by his peers and the law. It was ruled that it was self-defense. He had to retire/go on disability because he could no longer do the job he loved. It has been a very long road for him and I'm not sure if he has ever come to grips with what happened. "Good" men are forced to do things that "good" men aren't supposed to do, it is difficult to find them evil. But as you say, the road to "evil" is paved in good intentions. So would you consider someone good who did good actions that lead them to evil, evil? Would they be a villain or a victim of not realizing what was happening around them or fully understanding the consequences of their actions and choices?

I see your point, Dark Knight. Which is why, it really doesn't matter how we interpret another's actions - but how the individual does. We are our own worst enemy. It is an interesting point, we know up through Eclipse that Edward continued to think of himself as a monster. At the conclusion of Breaking Dawn, does Edward still see himself that way? Do we? Can a man (or woman) who makes or does "evil" redeem themselves. And if they can redeem themselves, why would they still be classified as a villain? Are they a "recovering-villain" or an "ex-villain"?

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In response to you Una, Are you regarding Edward as a vampire to which he would not be placed in the evil catagory because as a vampire that is his source of food. So its like saying being in a room with a humgry tiger or lion that kills you is evil. The fact Edward discrimminated in his choice of food selection was due to the fact that he didn't want to be a monster and was having a hard time accepting who he really was.

The redemption Edward is wanting is not from people or humans, its from the inner termoil or the human and the knowing of what is right and wrong if he was still human. Since Edward was a monster in effect when he woke up after being bit, he is no longer held by human morals. That is why Edward is so torn apart, he doesn't want to be a monster at all and when he did kill humans because of what he had become, he tried to pick the lowest in human society. \\

This is why Edward needs to work out his issues internally and why people do not see that dark side of him, even when he tells Bella from the begining he is bad for her. Its only when he accepts his role in the human world and puts the past behind him that he does move on with Bella. Edward's "evil side" was not evil to what he had become, it would have been evil for a human but not for a vampire. Am I coming across clear or do I need to go further with my opinion, the only thing I can see is that everybody goes back to judging Edward for these deeds but fail to attribute them to the Edward the vampire and not Edward the human.

diane771 wrote:In response to you Una, Are you regarding Edward as a vampire to which he would not be placed in the evil catagory because as a vampire that is his source of food. So its like saying being in a room with a humgry tiger or lion that kills you is evil. The fact Edward discrimminated in his choice of food selection was due to the fact that he didn't want to be a monster and was having a hard time accepting who he really was.

Good question and my clarification is this, by Edward's definition being a vampire is being evil, they kill and therefore evil. To me, as a vampire it is in his nature to feed, therefore how can we say he is evil if we do not say the lion is evil for killing the deer for survival. I agree with you here, I don't see Edward as a monster because he make the choice to not kill, he fights against the urge to kill humans and hunts animals instead. Before the vampires learned that they could survive on animal blood (which I believe was all Carlisle's doing or did the Denali clan figure it out on their own as well?), humans classified Vampires as evil because they preyed on humans. Are sharks evil since sharks will prey on humans if they are around? Maybe the distinction is that vampires were at one time human and in their transition (that for many were against their will) they were transformed evil. Because they may (as some do) remember their humanity and therefore judge themselves as having become evil. For Edward, maybe because he started as a veggie vamp and with Carlisle's influence retained more of his humanity so he was better able to be his own judge. Would Aro or Caius say they are evil monsters?

Again, personally, I do not view Edward as a monster nor do I view all vampires as evil per say. It is their nature, but with the discovery of being able to live off of animals instead of humans can we still say that? Is a vampire evil because they chose to continue to prey on humans, indiscriminately? Or are they like the lion or shark still?

Are vampires considered similar to animals or are they to be held to a higher plane like humans? Killing another is considered wrong by human standards, vampires are able to reason so should they be held to the same plane? Especially now knowing they do not have to live off of humans? Not all vampires have Edward's gift so they may actually kill innocents. In New Moon how many of those humans led to the chambers were innocents? Edward was bothered by it, not just on Bella's behalf. Their feeding method did not sit well with him. I believe it was because not only did they feed on the humans, that many of those humans were innocents.

It is interesting that Edward seeks redemption but the redemption he can attain can only come from within, his acceptance that he is not evil or no longer evil. Was that part of our HEA? Do you think that by the end of Bella and Edward's story that Edward no longer viewed himself as evil? He no longer only saw a monster?

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Well when Carlisle was changed into a vampire he lived only off of animals. He never killed a human, maybe mostly how he was raised as a preacher's son. So I would say the Denali clan went the way of Carlisle and the Cullen's. Since Edward was the first human that Carlisle turned, he was new to that and so maybe lacked the skills or the knowledge of new borns such as Jasper had.

It is their nature, but with the discovery of being able to live off of animals instead of humans can we still say that? Is a vampire evil because they chose to continue to prey on humans, indiscriminately? Or are they like the lion or shark still?

Well you can look at vampires as snakes I guess who only eat when they are hungry and not for the chance and the thrill of it. My dogs get excited and want to go after rabbits and squirrels the main reason is that they run and the dogs like to chase and the nature is not to kill but when they do catch them 9 times out of 10 they do kill them. Not for being evil or hungry, just by instinct, which is an instinct that is natural in a vampire. To which Edward is trying everyday to overcome, like an addict, its a struggle for him and he knows that he doesn't want to be that person but he was, and he could go back anytime to that "monster" as he calls it and have a relapse. When he meets and falls in love with Bella, she shows him the side that he had pushed deep down by his guilt and own feelings that he killed people and that was something that he would never had done if he was still human. So by showing Edward the good in him, Edward could surpress those bad feels of himself and see himself in a better light. He finally gets a grip on himself as a whole, not as just the "monster " he believes he is.

by bac Not every wrong is evil. And, I do not feel that Edward was evil.

So bac, how do you justify your view of Edward given that he has committed evil acts multiple times? That does not seem rational to me?

For me it is a current state of evil. I believe that people can do evil things, make bad choices, even kill and be an evil person. However, if that person today is a changed person, has decided that those things were evil and wants to be a better person, then (and I am not the one to judge on real people) that person may no longer be an evil person.

In Edward's case, he was evil when he was murdering, I see what you are saying there. He was evil. At the time that we meet him in the books, he is no longer evil. He is really trying to be a good person.

I believe that every person has the opportunity (whether they take it or not) to make a better choice today than they made yesterday. They may be able to become a much better person and leave their evil behind. They may still have to pay consequences for their acts, but they may no longer BE and evil person.

So let me reflect your comments back to see if I get what your thoughts are, you believe in Atonement, redeeming and that you are just one step away at anytime from being on the path of enlightenment. Is this correct?

You both speak of animalistic nature, however this does not take in account that Vampires are self aware unlike the lion or tiger. This changes everything. For self awareness gives rise with choice and then and only then can we speak of evil or good. Choice is derived by the apple of the tree of knowldge, so the epic tells of. More over neither of you have delt with the fact that Vampires are human in base. So the feeding on humans is liken to canabalism whichs is an evil act by all accounts.

Maybe it's like this, as I spoke to HOFJ about not having the scar of the act, one does not understand what it means. It just seems irrational to me that one can see Edward as not a villain for what he did. Is he on the path of redemption, yes, but how much does it take to redeem a life? I pose this to you all. If you want I will try to convey better what I mean?

Well you do make a point in some area's but as a breeder and around animals all my life I can say that dogs and cats do have awareness. Something that most people do not see. They can chose between who they like and don't. They can chose what they like to eat and what they don't. Now that you have put evil into the that what do you come up with? Is it evil that one of my dogs picks out one dog that they hate and goes after. or person that they don't even want them to pet without biting. Attacking without just cause, because something attracts them to that person or other animal? I had 2 cats and they never got along for 20 yrs, are they evil ? In every species you will find have delt with the fact that Vampires are human in base. So the feeding on humans is liken to canabalism whichs is an evil act by all accounts. So DK are vampires human or not if not then what they eat is not evil, if they are then they must be a superior race than humans with all that they have over the human race. Also when I person kills someone and its evil and he is tried by his peers and goes to jail serves his time and becames a different person. Is this person still evil even though he paid his dues? or is he forgiven?

Dark Knight maybe you missed my earlier posed questions. Are vampires, because they have the ability to reason as do humans, therefore governed by the laws of man? Or are they something separate, another species or animal if you will? We do not hold animals to the same laws as humans. And if a vampire created another and told them they had to live on humans to survive, if they didn't know they could survive on animal blood, are they evil? There are many vampires who I would believe do not view humans as "close cousins" to themselves but view them more like cattle.

Speaking of choice, that was exactly my question earlier. The vampires that know (like the Volturri) that they could live off of animals but choose humans, are they evil? Especially given the nature of how they "hunt." They are not trying to fight evil, they seem to prey on the innocent. So if they are evil, are there varying degrees of evil? I personally would not put Edward in the same category as the Volturri. I think redemption is possible, but part of that is that I believe in mercy and forgiveness. That it is possible to atone for one's sins.

I do not see Edward as a villain because he repented his evil actions. Again, I define a villain as one who is on the path of evil and continues along that path, their choices are made towards evil intentions, not against it. Did he once prey on humans, yes. Does he continue to do so, no. Why, because he saw the error of his ways and rejected that path and has worked diligently to not do what he considers evil (even though he says it is the natural instinct of what he is).

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diane771 wrote:Well you do make a point in some area's but as a breeder and around animals all my life I can say that dogs and cats do have awareness. Something that most people do not see. They can chose between who they like and don't. They can chose what they like to eat and what they don't. Now that you have put evil into the that what do you come up with? Is it evil that one of my dogs picks out one dog that they hate and goes after. or person that they don't even want them to pet without biting. Attacking without just cause, because something attracts them to that person or other animal? I had 2 cats and they never got along for 20 yrs, are they evil ? In every species you will find have delt with the fact that Vampires are human in base. So the feeding on humans is liken to canabalism whichs is an evil act by all accounts. So DK are vampires human or not if not then what they eat is not evil, if they are then they must be a superior race than humans with all that they have over the human race. Also when I person kills someone and its evil and he is tried by his peers and goes to jail serves his time and becames a different person. Is this person still evil even though he paid his dues? or is he forgiven?

My freind, aware and self aware are not the same thing...Edward proves this very well by his self denial that you use as his shield...

Vampires are an altered version of human...to what amount who knows...But there is no way a lion is an atler form of a lion...