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But I will repeat my still-unanswered question as to who you might
have spoken with at any time who might be called a "principal" in
the CCD effort to get your impressions.

Your use of the term "vested interest" was in direct reply to Joel's
question about "money", so if you want to now attempt to recolor
your comments, you'll have to provide more detail as to the specific
"vested interests" of specific parties rather than offering further
generalizations.

I guess you could say that my "vested interest" is in the facts.

Do I really have to call Monsanto or Dow or Bayer and ask if they're a charity or a business? Do I have to call up the universities and get a notarized statement from a researcher that states "Yes, we have an interest in studying stuff like CCD and the better our research is the more funding we receive"? Shall I call the almond growers and ask for scientific proof that they're interested in raising a profitable crop?

We're talking an industry here. Of course there's a money trail.

Come to think of it, your accusation that people are stealing and embezzling money should be proof enough that there's a money trail, don't you think?

I've been working with people from each classification listed, and the
common theme so far, the only common theme I've seen at all has been
that each has been stealing/embezzling money set aside for other
purposes to attempt to help out with this CCD thing.

Perhaps you'd like to post the names of principles who are stealing this money? Surely their bosses would like to know. Dealing in facts and all that....

jim fischer writes:
I've been working with people from each classification listed, and the
common theme so far, the only common theme I've seen at all has been
that each has been stealing/embezzling money set aside for other
purposes to attempt to help out with this CCD thing. They've been
literally risking being fired or disciplined very harshly for playing games
with the budgets and the rules of how money is handled.

tecumseh replies with a comment partially directed at mr digman:
jim and I (likely) have some idea as to how university research really works (which is not to suggest that either he or I have a vest interest in research dollars). most well funded programs* are always stealing money from one pocket to get started on some program (question) that has greater current interest or possiblities, but for which no monies has been allocated yet. This then give those individuals (with other funding) a bit of a jump on their competition (and the person who gets the right answer first wins in this little horse race).

I suspect that the reseracher (at this point) are whining because there were promises made and no money has come along to back up those promises. If you have NO CLUE as to exactly how underfunded basic research in the us of a really is then might I suggest you explore this topic and call you representative or senator and suggest they FOCUS on this problem (and which directly makes this country less secure daily).

*monies are now so tight for basic research that a 'well funded researcher' is much more likely to be properly connected than to pocess a superior mind or have formulate some innovative question (at least that's how it appears to me).

then jim fischer writes:
The irony of the conspiracy theorists is they are the ones producing
the misinformation that causes people to believe in conspiracy theories.

tecumseh replies:
well jim conspiracies exist and they likely exist much more often than most folks might suspect. the exact opposite of conspiracy theory is coincidence theory... whereby you believe everything happens in a totally random nature with events occuring totally outside the influence of groups of people. history would suggest that the latter theory is much more likely to be 'wishful thinking' than the prior theory.

I do (think??) I get your drift... however. I would suggest that these so call theorist are more likely to be attempting to SELL their theory than to PROVE their theory.

Lastly... always glad to read your comments and (like mr digman) glad to see that you wander back thru these parts from time to time. ps... I noted in an old bee magazine a fischer bee lift... any connection?

> I noted in an old bee magazine a fischer bee lift... any connection?

Nope, not me. The "Fisher's Famous Honey Sticks" guy is ALSO not me.
(Note the spelling difference)

Barry Digman asked:

> Do I really have to call Monsanto or Dow or Bayer and ask if they're a
> charity or a business?

Yes, you really do!

You will be pleasantly surprised to find out that in regard to CCD,
they have been DONATING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES for well over a year,
despite the misguided critiques and insulting comments being tossed in their
general direction by beekeepers.

And here's something I wrote nearly a year ago about how charitable
Bayer has been in regard to the CCD issue:

http://bee-quick.com/reprints/serial_killer.pdf
"There was one encouraging note. Bayer CropScience offered to provide
their standard analytical samples of metabolite chemistry, the chemicals
that result from plants metabolizing Imradaclopid. This systemic
pesticide, made by Bayer, has been mentioned as a suspect often.
Bayer seems conﬁdent enough that CCD is not caused by their products
to provide the rope that could be used to hang them."

Now, you can bluster all you want about how cooperating with the CCD
investigation is "good PR" for Bayer, or you can get all paranoid about
how they might somehow be subverting the process, but the only tangible
evidence we have here is that they handed over valuable and highly
proprietary chemistry for free and sent their best toxicology people to the
"working group" meetings, and did all this well before there was any
significant evidence tending to support claims that their products are not
the cause of CCD.

I think they showed an amazing level of openness.

It is easy to demonize the pesticide companies, as they are such easy
targets, and people are predisposed to hate them. But when you look
at the actual chemistry, you find that "systemics" in general, and
seed-treatment systemics in specific are perhaps the best thing that ever
happened to beekeeping, as a pesticide that is not sprayed is a potential pesticde kill avoided.

And if you haven't lost at least 100 colonies to pesticide kills, you really
do not have a legitimate "seat at the table" on this issue, as you haven't
paid your dues. There are lots of areas where smaller operations and
hobbyists have exactly the same conditions as larger operations, but
pesticide kills are rare for non-pollinating operations.

Good heavens. It's an industry. There's a money trail. There's nothing mysterious or evil or surprising about it. It's the way we do things in this country. Sheesh.

Back to the original thread, which had to do with reports of continuing losses in the almonds this year. The article said that it was the biggest hit yet. My question is whether there are corroborating reports to that effect? The other current thread seems to indicate that there are significant losses, but no one has definitely diagnosed them as CCD losses.

It would be nice to be able to hear reliable updates from the folks on the ground in California or those in direct contact with them.

Barry's post calling for facts is important here. The nature of Beesource is communicative. We have practice of mixing fact with rumor or conjecture. However, nearly everyone here has a vested interest in the issue no matter what their size or where they're located. It think it was a fairly recent Bee Culture article that dispensed with distinguishing between "hobby", "sideliner" and "professional" beekeepers. We're all beekeepers and we all care. I personally would love more actual data...at least incidents where CCD is suspected and being investigated.

Finally, Jim Fischer makes a great point regarding corporate involvement. Unfortunately, big corporations often make big targets and not good targets. I want to be careful about painting any entity with too broad a brush, but I'm getting old enough to recognize that reality is not always easily seen or measured.

"My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

My sources,whom have been at the "dead zone" of what is estimated above 10,000 + dead hives tell me I should keep a watch on the CBS evening news possibly thursday for a
report.
It 's not just one outfit,there's some other large (6000 to 15000) hive outfits with thousands dead at the last minute.It's a whole different group of beekeepers having trouble than those of us which had 70 to 80% loss last winter.
It sounds like something from Alfred Hitchcock or a honey bee terrorist attack,but it seems to be more than an almond bloom scare tactic,as some have said.

What I am wanting to know is how do you know it was actually CCD. As I was watching a story about a month ago on the Killer Bees and the CAPE Bee. The cape bee is moving up from south america right behind the Killer Bees. The CAPE bee moves into hives and does just that Moves in and cleans house , eats the stores and leaves. Leaving behind a empty hive with little to no evidence of anything happening but a few dead bees. All this talk on CCD and I have not her one mention to the cape bees. Yet they are here. That special was out of arizona. I would be more suspect of the cape bee then ccd with nothing but a few dead bees and empty hives. Sounds all to commin to me. Same evidence of what the cape bees do when they move in they kill and discard the dead bees. Eats then leaves. Sounds al to the same? And also how do you not know if these large guys are actually taking good care of there bees. They have so many how can they possabily be able to take care of all of them. Swarm calls have went up and I am even getting them in Feb now. Sounds like they are not being cared for. Almonds just now bairly started to bloom here in Cent CA. And bees have been out for a little over 3 weeks now. I am just now seeing beek putting syrup on the hives. Yet they have been comming to my open feeders to eat the pollen and syrup I keep out for the bees. Then going back 1/4 mile to the trees down the road. It just all makes you wonder. About feeding on time the cape bees and making sure there is enough room and forage for them before they decide they need to leave before they all die. This is just my 2c and talking to a few beek I know. I also know of several local beek that still have hives for rent for almonds and yes they have ads on craigslist and fresno bee and no calls. So there is not a shortage as you all think. If there was there would not be any ads that have been up n and off since Jan.

It is important to stress that (as far as I know) no one is posting about
their own hives here. We are all repeating what we have been told by
those who own the hives in question, and/or those who are working for
or with those who own the hives in question.

I am going to trust my sources, and say that anyone who runs thousands
of hives is not going to confuse "starvation" with "CCD". Yes, the weather
has been lousy, yes, the bloom is very late, yes some hives may have
starved while waiting for decent flying weather that never came.
But not all of them, as some showed CCD symptoms as they were being
fed. The process of feeding and checking hives is what revealed the
start of the CCD symptoms, which were then observed to spread.

> As I was watching a story about a month ago on the Killer Bees and the
> CAPE Bee. The cape bee is moving up from south america right behind
> the Killer Bees.

What program was this? I've never heard of any Cape Bees being in
South American. South AFRICA, yes. South America? I hope not.

Angi there are 4 people (at least) on this BBS
that have 'come out of the closet'
Myself, simplyhoney, lspender, socal
If you read their posts you will know
a bit more
Symptoms? The end is an empty hive
Previous is reluctance to take feed
What happens to the dead out boxes
is confirmation
All past year I've been chasing earlier
symptoms with the hope of finding
some palletive treatment (read on beel)

The challange is finding what the symtoms are and the trigger that begins the down fall.

It has been mentioned on another thread to MONITOR hive by testing ie spore counts for nosema & v-mite rolls. This still brings up a challenge as I found last Thurs. eve Feb 21st from one of the researchers working with Hackengerg & Mendes, of 12 large operation that had losses none of them test positive for nosema.. CCD is real and worst, it is still inknown.

I personally am learning to test more and I will be as of this month. But I still am asking what if anything has been found as a trigger to start colapse.

Side note: How do you test / observe and hive collapsing in the FALL time when they are naturally becoming smaller for winter?

ALso, I will be fumigating ALL my equipment next week with methol bromide with the goal of creating a starting p[oint of clean boxes.

My hats off to Pender, simply honey, so cal and Dave Thompson for having the guts to come forward and give CCD a face and a voice, something that has been sorely lacking. Even more importantly we can see that the faces are people we know here. Perhaps we can begin a productive conversation which will open the door for others who truly have suffered from CCD to speak up and get some facts.