I don't think Piro will do anything R rated at the Hotel just based on his character.
And who really gets sexually excited after being through a trama?
If that's a real thing it probably only happens to people who have a lot of sex with random people.

I'm not sure how Miho + Piro shippers exist. They had an intense and weird online relationship. It impacted them, but it's half real and half fake. It's like when you're playing permanent death RPG and your character dies (only more intense).

Yeah careful treading is required...
He's shellshocked after having seen Miho panic in the hospital room, having saved her life, but not did not have the opportunity to properly talk after Yuki teleported her to the MG store and played the little 'I hate you' pantomime in front of the horde to save him, and Kimiko accidentally stopped her heart before they had the chance to talk. The Little Polygon Bump path is not yet closed. Not in his mind anyway. And it won't be until he has the chance to talk to Miho again.

@McTrooper
"And who really gets sexually excited after being through a tra(u)ma?"

Yeah well it happens in stories a lot... some (1) author(s) I read, claim the fear of death (especially if the males are in danger) makes their female characters more willing to 'carry the gene pool forward', to spell it really really blunt.

(Not that it doesn't happen in so-called mainstream either, if you look even at any (especially older) 007 film ;J what are the female characters doing usually at the end. Or more recent example, Kingsmen )

I'm not sure how Miho + Piro shippers exist. They had an intense and weird online relationship. It impacted them, but it's half real and half fake.

A recurring theme of the comic though is the blurrable distinction between what's "real" and what's "fake". Kimiko in particular has on multiple occasions (to Miho after their escape from the cafe, when Miho says the relationship wasn't "physical"; and in various discussions regarding Kotone) made clear her belief that an online (for example) experience is "real" to the extent that the participant invests in it emotionally (i.e. not necessarily real, but can quite easily become real if the participants so desire). Kimiko saw Piro's quite emotional response when trying to describe his "online" relationship with Miho, and as far as she's concerned that emotional content is quite enough to make the experience "real". (The relevant philosophical position is something along the lines of "everything happens in the brain anyway", but I've no real philosophy background and can't suggest useful google terms, it's just what I've picked up second hand.)

A much stronger counterargument is the way that first relationship ended (Miho telling Piro she was actually a guy who had been playing him for a loser chump). Yes, by now Piro has heard Miho's claim that there was more to it than that at the time. Kimiko has heard (but not necessarily understood yet?) Miho's claim that "people who love her die". Assuming that means that Miho was actually trying to "save" Piro (who had fallen in love with her at that point and was thus at risk of dying, at least in Miho's worldview) by breaking off the relationship as quickly and permanently as possible, and assuming either Kimiko can convey this to Piro at some point or he hears it directly from Miho at some even later point, and assuming he even believes any of it then yeah, that might go a ways toward helping him get over what happened. Maybe even be friends with her (in some form or other).

But get back together with her romantically? I don't see that as possible. Getting over what happened intellectually is one thing, but viscerally, the emotions he went through at the time are not going to go away so easily. I don't see any evidence at all in the past couple of chapters of him thinking of her in that way. Even sitting next to her naked in the bathhouse he was more pissed off than anything else. He's certainly willing to help her through "whatever the heck is going on" (again, he's only heard bits, Kimiko has heard other bits, who knows what other bits Miho has yet to reveal) out of a sense of obligation/moral duty/whatever, but the main emotions he seems to have displayed during the course of helping her are frustration and exasperation. (Miho doesn't seem interested in eliciting any other emotions from him, so this isn't exactly a one-sided thing.)

Bullshit. Not gonna bother constructing any "arguments" this time around, since the chain of "Megumi wants a three-way with them", "Megumi wants a three-way with them", "Megumi wants a three-way with them" one-liner responses is completely predictable. Just, bullshit.

Right. Frustrated in not getting what she wants from Junpei, she is gonna use "wh-wh-wh-wh-wh-what???" Piro as a Junpei substitute. Bullshit really doesn't do justice to that kind of absurdity, but what ya gonna do.

Last edited by darrin on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

A number of MT things that have been explained have done so over time by alluding to and providing various complementary aspects that fit with each other. Situational describers in story. In that way, Erika x Largo currently appears somewhat similar to Miho and Piro. (The interactions between Miho and Largo/Piro are another matter, but that is more an Endgames story or continuation thing about alliances, friendship, betrayal, trust, manipulation and control. How much any overlaps or not is another subject.)

With ExL, the initial situation was her, and not without quite a few supporting events, suddenly moving on a quite unprepared him. He wasn't expecting, and was unable to react in any way to it. He is untrained, and he failed, sort of. Unlike many other things, we are shown the basic issue, and then also unlike many other things we are over time fed the solution. The situation itself apparently from indicators hasn't happened again, and the original situation unavailable. Practically, she wouldn't try the same thing, nor would he be unknowingly unprepared if she did. It is an event that has passed, the environment that led to it no longer there. Then we see the reactions to figuring it out; his, Piro's, Junko's, hers. It's established as personal one not suitable for public discussion or with strangers. Then there's a resolution between the principals, including intent. A plan, a goal, a reason. Not much in MT is made clearer than that in story. But there's more, a number of other behaviors that are as clear as anything might be as to how they're doing as a couple. been really happy | have some more | clubbing may be required | princesses sure are a lot of trouble | warm fuzzy feelings | seating arrangements | it might be broken | making mayh3m

With Miho and Piro, likewise, the situation that once existed is no more. No matter how real emotionally before, there's not going to be any chatting and picture trading going on again. Over, nothing to return to. It started in Endgames (although Endgames is not over fully, it isn't anything now like it was before). It ended when that particular story was over, stabbed, turned in, maintenance mode, other games, years gone by. Piro and Largo then apparently maybe both forgot about Miho, or whoever she/he/it/them was, because Miho wasn't around to remember, if it's anything like recently. Yet whatever else, now is now, it is not then. This is a different incarnation, with much more going on, all in person, not involving only some mix of the three of them.

The recent Miho and Piro conversations in the apartment and on the way to the bathhouse are pretty clear, how it went at the bathhouse more than clear. There's nothing there but words about the past, and him trying to figure out what she won't actually explain to anyone (and if some comics are any indication, he hasn't been successful at doing). Going backwards isn't an option, nothing is there any longer, the illusion has been shattered numbers of times in many ways even still. And whatever the two of them had, saying they were in love is rather hollow, much less talking about getting back together in ways that they never did in the first place.

The events since arriving at the school have given what indications hat happened other than being glad that aspect is over and done? Why would, especially after the bathhouse, and her methods of trying to get away at the school, anyone be sure that she particularly cares about him, even as a potential savior from whatever it is she needs saving from allegedly. What is he doing now that suggests anything but getting rid of the past or atoning for past errors in how he handled things years ago. There never was anything directly physical to return to, and it's about as clear as it can be there's nothing physical to arrive at.

On the other hand, the future is unresolved, is all potential, chances to do well, to even perhaps win even against the pessimism about winning or plans to work against such things. What was with Miho or m0h or Moh before comic #1 is quite a separate matter than if here in the 1500s and beyond what there will be with Kimiko. There are what appears to be Kimiko's plans for the future for her and Piro in the last couple chapters. Also her actions and his reactions in the car. Plus her patiently taking action and him mostly seeming calm so far with picking a room and going to it. More, that remains to be seen, but at least there's something that has a good chance of being there. Not a hollow broken past best forgotten and no longer returnable to.

Last edited by iffy on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@McTrooper
"And who really gets sexually excited after being through a tra(u)ma?"

Yeah well it happens in stories a lot... some (1) author(s) I read, claim the fear of death (especially if the males are in danger) makes their female characters more willing to 'carry the gene pool forward', to spell it really really blunt.

A while back I read an Oxford study that showed just that. It was with males, not females, but there was a noticeable increase in sexual interest after an exposure to danger.

On the subject of Miho and Piro being a thing of the past or not, I'm not so sure.

I've had my own breakups, and then had the girl show up in my life again suddenly, and my interest hadn't cooled. I actually spent some time thinking about it, and came to the conclusion that I just don't know how to fall out of love. I can develop new love interests, and I can intellectually say that's a bad decision perusing an old relationship. That doesn't mean feelings aren't still there for me. I've come to realize this puts me in the minority, as most people aren't this way. However, I think Piro is also a member of this cursed minority.

Whatever else is going on I think it perfectly clear that Piro and Miho are not "over." That doesn't mean that they will become a couple, just that it's possible. Frankly I think it depends on two things. If Kimiko develops a stronger bond with Piro (most likely by opening a physical relationship) that will pretty much torpedo Miho-Piro possibilities. Additionally, Miho would have to decide to actually pursue Piro romantically, if she doesn't then they just won't ever happen, because Piro is too hurt to initiate a rekindled romance.

There is a reason the Old Flame trope is a trope. Casablanca uses it very effectively (which also shows that being susceptible to an old flame can occur even in decisive men). Of course, in the end, in Casablanca Rick and Isla don't end up together. But plenty of audiences thought they could have.

@Sackett : I think, it also probably depends on when will the topic of the 'Little Polygon Bump" surface again, and who tells it to who, and how. Probably the worst for Piro would be if Kimiko learns of it from someone else, not him. Or if he's confronted about it and tries to deny / play stupid.

If only we could fit Tohya into a trope or anti-trope with any certainty, or know if she even actually exists, or if anything she's ever said or done is anywhere near true.

Sure though, even the most horrid disastrous OldFlame tropy situation might be brought screaming back out of the abyss. Tripping over someone at a fast food joint and boom, it's like they had just doused all your artwork in diesel, or threw your harpsichord out of the window, or you walked in on them partying hearty and unclothed with with fifteen unswimsuited models.

If the reuniting an old flame sort of plot is going to happen, it will be very interesting to see how that is accomplished in a way that flows and makes sense. It seems more likely that candle has been crushed in a vacuum, slapped with antimatter, wrapped in dynamite, put into a nuclear bomb, and launched into the heart of the sun with particle accelerator. Still, yes, of course, we can never know until it's established to be not the case, and Piro has decided the illusionary destructive past is more enticing than the here calm present and unknown future.

Yet in the matter of {whatever Miho actually is}, most people out in the real world with actual experiences are likely have never had a non-physical sort of relationship online just like that one, due to the lack of such a being existing out here. Hopefully. There are situations somewhat like all that of course, but the big difference between there and here seems important in this context. The Moh-Pirogoeth situation arose in a game where the other person had contaminated and controlled its core stats, wedged herself between the protagonists, and mixed that lie into another one layered even deeper. That lead to sympathy or empathy (she the player is becoming more ill) and role playing via text and picture trading. Then she lied about the lies, he nuked her in game, and everyone apparently forgot about the details, with perhaps only the emotions remaining. To be dreged up and spun as we see in such as t3h 3v1l to are you trying to save me?.

For Miho and Piro, the subjects interacting during the chat logs parts of Endgames, we can also say that nobody here has probably ever entered into a online relationship with an ultra-powerful immortal unkillable psychic force from antiquity. Irish Goddess or not. Parts muse, magical girl, sickly waif, emotional vampire, and whatever else it is. As far as anyone knows, something that actually stepped out of The Necrowombicon. How applicable is equating Piro and that to anything else, so far it seems not much. It remains to be seen what might be possible, and at this point perhaps anything is. such a powerful hugbomph

With Piro though, if you take his early chapter0ish thoughts and ideas into account, he didn't mundane-yoink him and Largo to Japan on 28 Aug 2000 for any conscious reason but that he hoped perhaps he'd feel more comfortable and at home there. Even culturally out of place and speaking like a teenaged girl and such. The early interactions with Miho pre-cake shop (and after too) were mostly all her messing with both of their minds and not in a mostly friendly way, even if rather benign. Seemingly, like with those at school during her final/temporary retreat to the ASF, when she's not around everyone forgets her, at least until they're made to remember, or apparently, when there are unfinished stories. While both Piro and Largo had a lot of repressed things that they didn't want to admit to anyone not even themselves, a return to anything like the situation (in or out of Endgames from the time) appears the farthest thing from even their subconscious minds. It didn't feel good, it wasn't fun, they moved on. Since amusing little enigmas, if her whole goal wasn't to make them even more angry, upset, off-balance, and set up for failure, she did very well acting almost always in frustrating vague hostile confrontational manners to cause such reactions anyway. Really good at doing what she was trying or really terrible at it, the results were the same. One imagines though that things turned out that way because that's how she wanted it to be. That is not the behavior of somebody trying to get something they never really had back. And it isn't until after she again ditches all the stories for at least a bit (if we don't count Ping?) by ending one in bye bye and (perhaps) waits for either walkthrough or Code 401. It isn't until after then that she starts acting like she even cares about either them or what happens to her. Whatever she is attempting to do now, with her demonstration of what's up with her to Piro, or her trying to help or destroy Sight it doesn't appear to be moving the old cyber relationship into a physcial one, and their behaviors at the bathhouse more than establish neither one of them is particularly at all interested in such things. The only question that might remain is if Piro is interested in anyone, will he indeed not win and not lose.

It's not clear why anyone would particularly care or feel the need to inform anyone about the status of Piro's character in Endgames. That's going backwards. That there's a Moh Pirogoeth child running around in some server means what? It's a subject that aside from some really not much related references to evil every now and then since the bathhouse with Mugi hasn't been in play. Although you never do know when somebody's going to yank a pass out of their purse, aye. And if Piro, even after hiding in the back seat of the car on top of glass, remains dead set on stalling and not advancing and going back to what used to be, talking about his Endgames character again could be a way to accomplish more stalling and hesitating. To fulfill Megumi's frustrated patronizing i-give-up dismissal. To continue to hedge and equivocate and fail to decide -- that's more about him though, not who he might end up with or not. That's the whole not win not lose sort of argument though again, isn't it.

Power to you sir.
I agree her with almost everything, just to input, that Miho makes it painfully clear, that she doesn't want to do the 'life and death' one, she is afraid of that scenario and wants to fight it at all cost, and she does.

Scarier maybe though, because when you turn something is still there, just not what you thought you saw?

I'd say Miho's always lying about everything, but there's not enough information for it to be a lie. Even if there was, I don't necessarily think she is either aware of it or doing it on purpose, which would make it not meet the definition anyway. Perhaps it's all vague and generalized in order to hide that there are no answers established, and that anything is possible next.

Although if she has to die to end a story, aside from an apparent extreme resilience to dying or story end, what story was supposed to finish at the apartment? She starts off a demonstration of what is up with her, cheaters arrive and are involved, she and/or Ping and/or Piro keep shoving things other ways, she starts huffing and it gets far worse as The Horde almost drags her off and supposedly does drag Piro off, Yuki plops her for Kimiko to find, she tells Kimiko another non-matching version of some story or another, Kimiko perhaps makes the huffing worse but certainly shoves her against the door that Piro opens next. Miho collapses to end what? It seems like with Ed "killing her". The only two participants are (aside from some ranger zombies) her and Ed. All there for her "dying" at the apartment are her and Kimiko Piro. In both cases, she escapes/is reconstituted/is rescued, and isn't dead. We don't know if in either case she was supposed to stay gone/dead, but in neither case did she. And now it's another instance of some sort, or a continuation of the same story that started.... However long ago it started. Billions of years, in the pirate days, in Endgames, when she gets out of the book, as she starts trying to get Piro and Largo to fail then changes her mind and starts trying to make them winning the answer, as she is removed from the ASF, when.

Whenever some larger encompassing story might have started, in the cases of Ikebukuro and at the apartment and ignoring the metawalls, if that required demise had happened, nobody would have known of it except the participants. Not just no body, no audience, and that doesn't really fit that idea of some enjoyable fulfilling emotionally purging resolution. And now apparently once again, a death, that wasn't, with no body and no resolution. At least she's consistent.

@iffy: interesting... I have a 'feeling' that there may be another interesting layer to Miho... remember as she almost collapsed in front of Ping near the Anna Millers cafe? Maybe she tried to divert ... that's why she later remarked that she can't use Ping... she can't use a robotic fantasy for channeling the sadness that she needs to respawn... she needs that from 'real players'... or more like, the fantasy of her that lives, needs real players sadness to still live on. Will the help from the actor channelling the fantasy (Kimiko), and a real player that doesn't *need* his fantasy of her to die (Piro), be enough to save her ? Some mind-boggling strips are in the pipeline... I hope all 3 will somehow get to live and find happiness.

If she is Kotone, I think, the best they can do is send her back in time with her heart fixed (that is btw an interesting trope I haven't seen in Megatokyo yet) to either when she was happy as a pirate, or if it can't be done, to the place where she would actually find new love instead of dying, therefore changing her story enough to have the Horde to not require her to die again...

It would also mean, that the actress telling this story to the masses (Kimiko) would not be in danger of sharing the end of Miho's story...

Or maybe it'll be enough for Kimiko and Piro to persuade Lockart to alter the story! Which Piro has sort-of suggested, and Kimiko seems to be on the verge of actually getting done. If Kimiko really can't pull 'believably dead' scene, and Piro can't artwork it (assuming he gets the job) this could work... because the 'dead' ending would be so awful, that Lockart will delete it due to the 'deadline' for production... Now that'll be interesting.

As someone who has always communicated best using the written word, I find the contrast between Piro/Kimiko and Piro/Miho fairly obvious, but it’s also obvious that my obvious is not everyone else’s obvious (obviously).

Online relationships can be real ones, sometimes even deeper and more honest than relationships that happen in person. In that respect, reality is subjective. I mean, the whole comic is based on the concept of reality being subjective, so how could the comic’s primary love triangle not reflect that?

To tie in something another poster brought up recently (I’m on mobile and too lazy to dig around to find the post), there’s a great example of online relationships translating to real life in the exchange between Largo, Miho, and Piro at the Cave of Evil. Miho wasn’t being malicious at first. She was trying to distract Largo from being so upset about Erica, after watching Ping do something similar with Piro. That backfired when Largo slurred that he hadn’t cared about Miho’s exploits in Endgames, and she got so upset that she hit him where it hurt the most. As she admitted much later, she’s “good at stupid.” Then Piro came along and shut her down in the most hurtful way possible. Miho always had been terrible at manipulating Largo’s emotions, after all, and Piro had always been excellent at manipulating hers.

Given that all three had a similar dynamic online and in real life, I suspect that translates to the level of emotional intimacy between Piro and Miho in the rest of the comic, however it proceeds.

On a tangentially related note, I have to say that participating in the Story Discussion forum as opposed to lurking has been liberating. I’ve been here on and off for...eh, I’d say at least sixteen years? Long enough to wonder what really happened to Rodney (it wasn’t clearly explained at the time) and long enough to think “holy crap, this new ifyoucannotgoaboveme character talks more than anyone I’ve ever seen in my life.” I even met Fred and one of his associates (I think it might have been Ray Kremer?) at ACEN once, and he told me that “the foxgirl is going to end up being really important to the story” a long time before Mugi showed up as more than a side character. So to me, many of you have been real for a very long time, while to all of you, I’m someone who just showed up over the summer. It’s an honor to finally become part of your reality.

(Also, ha! Did I or did I not call it about the scene change and who would be in it?)

So, last week I went back and reread from the beginning of chapter 10 on, to see if I could find any support for this POV, or if I could find any for my own POV (stated a few posts above) that I don't think he does, and don't think he is likely to get to such a state any time soon.

But another comic went up in the meantime, and yet another is going up now, and I am kind of out of steam on the issue at the moment, preferring to wait until anything new on the issue comes up in the next 3 dozen comics or so (some actual dialogue between Piro and Kimiko would be nice for example which I don't think we've really had in a couple chapters?).

While doing that rereading though, an unrelated odd thought struck me... This definitely should be characterized as "wild speculation with no factual support whatsoever" but given that caveat... Could Kenji and (at least some of) the Cave of Evil staff be (at least some of) the "pirates" depicted in Miho's hints to Kimiko about Miho's "original" life, finding themselves forced to "reincarnate" in some similar fashion to what Miho is apparently undergoing? Some of the things Kenji says to Yutaka and Yuki suddenly seemed oddly suggestive of this to me ("but we are bound to her by her tragedy").

Most obvious counterarguments I can think of right off the bat:

"They can't all be "character analogues" or whatever Miho is supposed to be at this point, can they? That would be silly!" Not in the same way Miho is, probably not; but maybe they get dragged along for the ride. Note that whatever crazy "not-quite-a-magical-girl" powers Miho has, that allow her to yank Yuki out of the air in the bath house and ninja-girl out of the air in Junpei's room, Kenji seems to be able to stop Yuki from flash-jumping or teleporting (or whatever else you think Yuki does). (Or maybe he is just politely asking her not to, and Yuki is politely acquiescing; I'll agree that's at least possible but feels a bit less likely to me.)

"Well, where is mustache guy from 1404 you just linked to? The pirate that was in love with whoever Miho originally was (or at least in a heck of a lot less clothing at one point with her than the other pirates)? You don't think Kenji is in love with her that way do you?" Well, no, certainly the "love" or whatever Kenji describes the CoE folks having for her seems quite different from romantic or physical love at this point. I dunno, maybe mustache guy is one of the ones who didn't get dragged along for the reincarnation ride by Miho. Maybe he did but he's staff we haven't seen yet (so far we only know of Kenji, Waltah, and the "Phil" who posed for the second set of photos Miho sent Piro). Maybe it's Kenji, but after a hundred fifty years or so he just doesn't feel that way anymore. Maybe he does but keeps his mouth shut for the sake of her current "story".

I'm not wedded to the details but it was kind of a gut feeling, almost more based on the way Kenji was saying things rather than what he actually said...

Last edited by darrin on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Well, the strongest evidence for Piro still loving Miho is Yuki sensing it (since it's strongly implied that as a magical girl she can tell when someone loves someone else - unless she is the target).

Also, that bit about Kenji stopping Yuki from teleporting, it's pretty clear that he's just delaying her (which most people can do to Yuki by holding on tight) and using that delay to warn her about physical obstacles and dangers, which then makes Yuki think twice about trying to leap away.