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2

If there are tests like this that are being used, I think programmers should know about it. They may or may not be valid like: Hire the one with the most body modifications.
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JeffOFeb 15 '12 at 14:39

That's nothing like the Joel test. Your answer points to a huge detailed matrix, Joel's test is a series of 12 very simple questions to answer.
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Bryan OakleyFeb 15 '12 at 12:14

2

@BryanOakley - that's true, but the PCM is also the very first thing I thought of when reading the question. The upshot: there are no simple questions you can answer to measure a programmer!
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Joris TimmermansFeb 15 '12 at 13:39

2

@BryanOakley point of matrix being more complex than series is well taken; to me closer analogy to Joel's test would be a series made of Level 1 column elements in PCM - "explain and use Arrays..., Basic sorting... etc"
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gnatFeb 15 '12 at 14:51

The only one that doesn't seem particularly applicable is the have testers question. The others that seem kind of off turn in to a this is how we handle it how have you handled it in the past sort of questions(This is how we handle keeping our schedule up to date how have you handled scheduling in the past?).

edit:

Basically you don't get the stuff in the Joel test for free, you have to hire people who can make it happen. You want to establish their ability to make that happen.

All of Joel's questions are more about the environment than the programmer. If my team doesn't use source code control, then my not integrating with them by using my own source code control is hardly an improvement. Getting the team to use source code control is an improvement.
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Edwin BuckMay 1 '12 at 22:37

The Joel Test is just an informal baseline check to quickly judge whether a place has good working conditions for programmers. Even if it scores a perfect 10, it can still be a hell-hole that is going to go bankrupt six months down the road. A low score is an indication of something not quite right, and makes for excellent interview questions ("You're not currently using source control; are there any plans to do so in the future?"), and the answers might be such that you'd accept the job despite a low Joel score.

The Joel Test is not a 'standard' test either; it's just a checklist Joel Spolsky posted on his blog.

As far as 'measuring' the quality of a programmer goes; unfortunately, the really important skills and qualities of a good programmer are hard or impossible to quantify, so there is no replacement for thorough human evaluation. You can weed out the completely clueless candidates quite easily though, using a very simple programming task - ideally, something that involves recursion, tree structures or pointers (a programmer who doesn't 'get' these is unlikely to be of much use). For those who pass this test, you'll have to evaluate skills manually: read code they wrote, test drive applications they wrote, give them more programming tasks (both design and implementation), watch them work, talk to them, see if you can spark a professional discussion. If you're looking for a specialist / language guru, you might also want to ask a few knowledge questions, but for a general programming candidate I wouldn't bother.

+1 Judging the skills of a good programmers is one task is hard to quantify.
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Karthik SreenivasanFeb 15 '12 at 11:41

20

("You're not currently using source control; are there any plans to do so in the future?"), and the answers might be such that you'd accept the job despite a low Joel score. You would be making mistake to accept the job by the way. Eventually every developer learns that Plans to do so in the future is just something that interviewers say to deceive you but that they never act on because of terrible management. How many times have we heard something to the effect of Oh, we are moving towards Agile... and it turns out to be yet another micromanaged waterfall shop?
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maple_shaft♦Feb 15 '12 at 12:00

@maple_shaft: yeah, probably not a good example...
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tdammersFeb 15 '12 at 14:46

4

A perfect 10 on the Joel test would actually be 12... just saying :)
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MattDaveyFeb 16 '12 at 9:36

2

@MattDavey: That critically depends on your competencies to drive change. I had one of those experiences when I'd been in the business for two years (yeah we'll move to C++) and got the expected result. Nowadays, it would be a different matter. I can figure out if it's a sincere wish but inability to change, and then make it possible.
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MSaltersFeb 16 '12 at 12:46

In all my experience, this single question is most indicative of how good a programmer is. If they enjoy it; if they have passion for doing the task, then they're going to be good at it.

And frankly, a lot of 9 to 5 jobs don't involve a lot of coding. They don't involve a lot of iterating through the life-cycle of designing new programs and seeing how that design works/fails. Without that iteration, there's simply not the practice needed for programmers to gain core program design skills.

And they don't involve a lot of learning. Programmers who even simply hack on things at home are going to be exploring new and interesting solutions without the constraints of big business.

Eh, I have qualm with the wording at the start. It's not "have you used X" or "Do you know of Y", it's a matter of actually using and doing. Any programmer that hasn't touched or heard of the items on the Joel test is simply disconnected and needs to get a clue. But you're right, code-shops fail the Joel test because people in the shops let it fail. The only defense I can see runs along the lines of "I tried, but did not have the authority. And now I'm applying here".

I don't really get the point of this. These questions are about the team/company, not the individual programmer. And the OP didn't suggest using the same questions to asses the programmer, he just wants a set of simple questions.
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CodesInChaosApr 24 '12 at 21:18

1

I think that I am as good as my team is, or the company that we work for. In my opinion tests like this make a lot of fuss, but they don't really tell you anything useful about the company or the developer.
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CodeARTApr 24 '12 at 21:20

3

How do you know whether I pull changes before pushing? Well, I don't know what source control you're using, but in SVN at least, if you try to commit to a folder with changes that you don't have yet, the commit will fail until you run Update.
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Mason WheelerMay 1 '12 at 21:31

We are using TFS :) I really need to get my hands on other version control systems.
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CodeARTMay 1 '12 at 21:36

Soooo people actually do use TFS. I learnt something.
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FabinoutJan 20 '14 at 16:21