Blindly repeating the same debunked propganda (sic) doesn't make it correct.

As usual, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about - none of you.

I say again: you are begging the question, and so is the source you are citing. You can't prove that an egalitarian philosophy is superior to a non-egalitarian philosophy by measuring it ability to achieve egalitarianism. This is called begging the question. Also, you can't prove it's better in general by ignoring the most important successes and areas of achievement of the non-egalitarian philosophy. This is called cherry-picking.

pantsonfire wrote:

The question remains: how does libertarianism create equality?

The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless._________________History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. -- Abba Eban

The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless.

It's true that creating equality is not an explicit goal of Libertarianism, but reducing inequality is one of effects of it's application.

The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless.

It's true that creating equality is not an explicit goal of Libertarianism, but reducing inequality is one of effects of it's application.

Yes. Equal rights and equal opportunity does happen to have the effect of a tendency toward relatively equal outcomes, but that is not its objective. The fact that the rights are equal (provided they are not violated) is itself the whole point.

Personally, I happen to believe in some socialist concessions as a practical matter, but I think a social philosophy that, by design and intent seeks primary to achieve "equality" is EVIL, because it it's a simple scientific reality that people are not "equal" (which is not to say they don't have equal rights), and seeking to try to make them "equal" inevitably violates rights, turns people into helpless drones, and creates authoritarianism._________________History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. -- Abba Eban

Perfect "socialism" or call it what you will would be informal, non-enforced social contract, or rather, an agreement between developed and aware free individuals. Enforced "socialism" is just another name for hive where everybody is supposed to pretend that we are all somehow magically "equal" in terms of body mechanics, neurology, and the effect of the social background (which is attempted to be negated by the state). Those who can't pretend good enough are obviously bad people and shall be cured with Ritalin._________________“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”

What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.

Bullshit. These are serious researchers. There is no hand-waving - but there is a solid pile of evidence.

Quote:

And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality.
...
By removing obstacles that prevent poor people from becoming rich. Like removing fixed costs (social "insurance", cash registers, required certification) for trying to do something. Or removing complex laws. Those are no big deal for "rich", but efficiently prevent "poor" from trying to improve their situation.

OK so we remove some laws and... suddenly everyone is magically equal!

What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.

Bullshit. These are serious researchers. There is no hand-waving - but there is a solid pile of evidence.

Apparently we watched different speeches. In the one I watched guy spoke a lot about correlations that are quite well explained by what I wrote (and my explanation works for societies that aren't "modern, wealthy democratic countries" so I insist mine is correct). then he said "yeah, there are some glaring weaknesses in that argument, but don't worry we checked that". Somehow skipping the hard part of explanation looks to me like he didn't have an actual evidence there.

Feel free to link to that solid evidence you've seen.

pantsonfire wrote:

Quote:

And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality.
...
By removing obstacles that prevent poor people from becoming rich. Like removing fixed costs (social "insurance", cash registers, required certification) for trying to do something. Or removing complex laws. Those are no big deal for "rich", but efficiently prevent "poor" from trying to improve their situation.

OK so we remove some laws and... suddenly everyone is magically equal!

We seem to be missing a piece in between.

Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).

Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).

All you're doing is asserting that something is true without explaining why. How does removing "those" laws (whatever they are) make people more equal?

Sadly quick check didn't reveal anything addressing problems with the proposed thesis. Of course if I missed something feel free to point me to the evidence.

pantsonfire wrote:

Ahenobarbi wrote:

Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).

All you're doing is asserting that something is true without explaining why. How does removing "those" laws (whatever they are) make people more equal?

Gee I don't know. How did prohibiting slavery help making people more equal?

Sadly quick check didn't reveal anything addressing problems with the proposed thesis. Of course if I missed something feel free to point me to the evidence.

You clearly didn't understand the argument he is making. For one thing, everyone benefits in a more equal society. It's not just about the poor.

There is also plenty information on the website about methods and sources, if you'd bothered to look.

Yeah, I did bother to look and saw nothing that makes supports "equality matters, even if you take poverty into account". Like statistical analysis accounting for both "equality" and "part of poor people in the society".

pantsonfire wrote:

Ahenobarbi wrote:

How did prohibiting slavery help making people more equal?

Ah yes: libertarians are the only people who oppose slavery.

Hi corporal Strawman.

Implementing libertarian ideas helps poor in the same way - removing obstacles on their way to prosperity. How many times shall I repeat that before you bother to respond to it:?

It's self evident. If it isn't self evident for you, please explain why having obstacles is good._________________"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P. J. O'Rourke

You can lead a dishonest bet welcher to thought, but a bet welcher with no honor can do no thinking._________________"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P. J. O'Rourke