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Batman: Death of the Family

I haven't been paying much attention to comics recently, but after DC announced their recent Batman arc "Death of the Family" I've been interested to see what they have planned for the Clown Prince of Crime's return. So here's the place to share your thoughts on the arc as it progresses.

I've read the first issue (Batman: 13) and I'm officially excited to see where it goes, I also checked out the first tie-in comic with Catwoman, and it was surprisingly decent. Looking forward to this event as it progresses, hopefully they don't disappoint.

Awesome Gunslinger Avatar by Kymme

"The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..." Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel, Rosalind Lutece, 1889

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

If anyone has to die, I want it to be Damian first. That is in my mind a required kill off before anyone else is allowed to actually die.

After that, Tim Drake, but ONLY if he get's one of the most badass heroic deaths with an amazing noble sacrifice thrown in EVER! And then be replaced by an alternate universe version that has the pre-flashpoint History.

And then We can replace Damian with a character that isn't inherently unlikeable. I like this set of ideas very much.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

If anyone has to die, I want it to be Damian first. That is in my mind a required kill off before anyone else is allowed to actually die.

After that, Tim Drake, but ONLY if he get's one of the most badass heroic deaths with an amazing noble sacrifice thrown in EVER! And then be replaced by an alternate universe version that has the pre-flashpoint History.

And then We can replace Damian with a character that isn't inherently unlikeable. I like this set of ideas very much.

I second every single one of these ideas. Damian could have been good, and I gave him a whole lot of chances but he's just a twerp and a jerk, as well as probably being the most obnoxious robin ever, even including the behavior that god Jason Todd killed off. It's been years and he still hasn't had many stories where he, in and of himself, comes off as engaging. Not to mention he's what, the fourth or fifth black haired blue eyed Batman character who fights crime?

Tim Drake is an embarrassment. He has a different back-story, different suit, different equipment set, inferior detective skills, and leads what's probably the weakest family of comics in the entire New 52. He's not just a weak version from a shoddy book, he's actually not even Tim Drake in the most literal sense of the word.

Ok, venting aside, I really think that in all honesty that Batman 13 was an incredibly weak issue. I mean the whole issue with Joker's face came off as a cheap attempt at shock value, and the idea that he could single handedly take on a dozen armed thugs is kind of dumb. As well, the bit with Harley Quinn makes no real sense to me. I mean if you're going to stick her behind an all consuming hood there's no reason to affect her face, and if you want to make it authentic then why not go all out instead of glorified goth makeup?

Lastly, the title strikes me as being yet another cheap grab at the prestige at past comics. I mean we had this with Green Lantern 12 imitating the Death of Superman cover and the Man of Steel himself pretty much replicating a scene from All Star Superman, so this isn't new but it's still a blatant display of how creatively bankrupt DC is at the moment.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

When the character you like the most in the new BatFamily is freaking Jason Todd, you know there is something wrong. They screwed all Robins, even resetting Damian's personality to pre-Batman & Robin levels.
Seriously, Bruce should have stayed dead and **** should be Batman. Search it in your mind. You know it to be true. /rant

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Seriously, New 52 has made DC almost as bad as Marvel's been since Civil War, and with Marvel about to do a Reboot, I am actually having to look at dropping most of the New 52 all together and then going back to being almost exclusively a Marvel Fan.

And personally, I like the idea of taking a bit of time where Batman doesn't have a Robin for awhile after Damian has been removed (Via death or anything else that means he won't be plaguing us again. What ever it takes.), and in the mean time have Bab's get out of the Batgirl Costume on the grounds that she's out-grown that call sign (I like the idea that Jim Gordon relents and let's her join GCPD myself and she distinguishes herself in that career path, and on her own time establishes herself as Super hacker/info broker Code Name: Oracle, meaning she's getting the best of all three worlds.), release a special limited series about Cassandra Cain and how for three years she was Batgirl while Barbara was recovering form events in Killing Joke as per new Canon, and then when Barbara got back to the field she became Black Bat, and Let Stephanie Brown come around again as Batgirl.

Then in a few years, have her relocate somewhere where she's not gonna be in Gothem regularly enough to still be Batgirl and have any credibility, so she get's a new costume and call sign and we hand that set of reins off to a new comer at about the same time Bruce is getting a new Robin.

If we do that, I nominate going into DCAU for inspiration for a new Robin: Terry Mac-Guinness (Probably spelled the last name wrong. Teen Batman form the Batman: Beyond animated series.), and pick up a bit of classic 80's literature for inspiration for new Batgirl (I'm looking at Dark Knight Returns Carrie Kellington (Again, probably spelled the last name wrong. It was the girl who became robin for the Graphic Novels story line.). Again, Dark Knight Returns, NOT Dark Knight Strikes Again.)

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Seriously, New 52 has made DC almost as bad as Marvel's been since Civil War, and with Marvel about to do a Reboot, I am actually having to look at dropping most of the New 52 all together and then going back to being almost exclusively a Marvel Fan.

Not wanting to derail the thread, but what are you reading from DC and what Marvel has that apparently caught your interest. As long-time Marvel fan I'm mostly disgusted by their new offer - I mean, I could give Indetructible Hulk a chance and I'm excited for Yougn Avengers, but, well,, hot to put it...Avengers Arena and all bs going on with Avengers (almost all the same people in EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM.) and X-Men titles (all-New X-Men) and giving my favorite superhero team, Guardians of the Galaxy to Bendis, out of all people - yeah I'm pretty mad at Marvel these days.

From DC I'm reading only Demon Knights and I hate a lot of their new titles - Suicide Squad with what they did to Harley Quinn, Batgirl with all the jabs at Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain fans (I mean, one isue apparently had Batman outright stating Barbara is the only good batgirl, then looking right at the reader and repeating it) among them, but I heard they have some promising titles - Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Ressurection Man, Frankenstein and more horror-esque Wonder Woman (through I'm mad they took away her pants last minute).

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

I would like you to stop confusing "comics" with "mainsterm superhero comics published by Marvel and DC". There are many comics, superhero and not, outside big two who don't suffer problems you are talking about.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.

The problem is getting a person like that in control.

It can be done, it's just that very few people know both how to get that done and have the drive to do it. It IS possible to knock around top executives without going outside the law, it's just that with a budget like ours(read: zero), we'd need to be VERY careful, and it'd take weeks or months just to get through any kind of opening move.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Let comics DIE. The DC animates stuff is so good, and you know why? Because it ENDS. Its not forced to resort to reboots to make itself work and to have good continuity.

Have comic heroes retire, don't bring back dead villains/ heroes (Therefore don't kill them unless you absolutely need to) and NO MORE REBOOTS!

We are in the age of wikapedia people! Its not hard to read up on comic continuity.

The DC animated stuff is just gold!

If you buy comics and feel this way, you should probably stop giving them your money.

If you don't buy comics, why do you care? Stick to the stories you liked, of whatever era, and don't be fooled into investing in new issues just because they have a particular character in them. That's what drives them to keep characters around beyond their narrative sell-by date.

Many comic book stories are good, but I don't think anyone will argue that the comic industry experiment of telling and retelling the same characters' stories with hundreds of different artists, editors, and writers in varying combinations hasn't produced a disproportionate ratio of crap to gold, or that their work taken as a single whole has any kind of consistency or coherence.

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.

The problem is getting a person like that in control.

The problem is also coming up with a definitive list of 'good' and 'bad' that matches opinions across the entire comic book readership. Just because someone 'really cares' about a property doesn't mean they're capable of telling good stories either. The executives of the company (and by executives I mean board of directors level here) are focused on the financial well being of the company, probably not meddling with the issue-to-issue content or the direction individual storylines and character arcs take.

They care a whole lot more about actual bankruptcy than creative bankruptcy, and to expect anything else is naive.

Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Eakin

If you buy comics and feel this way, you should probably stop giving them your money.

If you don't buy comics, why do you care? Stick to the stories you liked, of whatever era, and don't be fooled into investing in new issues just because they have a particular character in them. That's what drives them to keep characters around beyond their narrative sell-by date.

Many comic book stories are good, but I don't think anyone will argue that the comic industry experiment of telling and retelling the same characters' stories with hundreds of different artists, editors, and writers in varying combinations hasn't produced a disproportionate ratio of crap to gold, or that their work taken as a single whole has any kind of consistency or coherence.

The problem is also coming up with a definitive list of 'good' and 'bad' that matches opinions across the entire comic book readership. Just because someone 'really cares' about a property doesn't mean they're capable of telling good stories either. The executives of the company (and by executives I mean board of directors level here) are focused on the financial well being of the company, probably not meddling with the issue-to-issue content or the direction individual storylines and character arcs take.

They care a whole lot more about actual bankruptcy than creative bankruptcy, and to expect anything else is naive.

For the most part, the last statement holds, however, there have been too many incidents were the Executives at that level said "Do it this way or else." to the writers.

Anyone familiar with the One More Day story line from Spider-man? Text book example of what I don't want to happen again. That was the writer writing a story under protest and with the threat of being let go if he didn't do exactly what the exec's wanted.

And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

For the most part, the last statement holds, however, there have been too many incidents were the Executives at that level said "Do it this way or else." to the writers.

Anyone familiar with the One More Day story line from Spider-man? Text book example of what I don't want to happen again. That was the writer writing a story under protest and with the threat of being let go if he didn't do exactly what the exec's wanted.

And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

I wouldn't necessarily call an editor-in-chief an executive, but I see your broader point. Still, would One More Day have been all that much better if the writer had been on board with the broader idea? I thought the biggest problem people had with it was what it accomplished and did to the character, not that it was badly written.

And no offense, but the fact that you're willing to come back and start reading comics that you don't like now if Marvel reboots their continuity kind of makes you part of the problem, in my view. Continuity reboots are not a good thing, they're a sign that the people involved can't tell a long form story especially when they're used as often as they are presently.

Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Eakin

I wouldn't necessarily call an editor-in-chief an executive, but I see your broader point. Still, would One More Day have been all that much better if the writer had been on board with the broader idea? I thought the biggest problem people had with it was what it accomplished and did to the character, not that it was badly written.

And no offense, but the fact that you're willing to come back and start reading comics that you don't like now if Marvel reboots their continuity kind of makes you part of the problem, in my view. Continuity reboots are not a good thing, they're a sign that the people involved can't tell a long form story especially when they're used as often as they are presently.

Well, the writer said that he never would have written the story until the editor/executive/whatever-were-calling-his-higher-up came in and told him what they wanted and to do it or else.

And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix, if it's handled right. Now, I grant you, If they blow it here, I'm gonna go right back to what I've been doing with them since civil war. Only reading occasional choice selections that I hear were really, really, really good. (World War Hulk for example.), or Continuity's that didn't get destroyed again. (I still read X-men lines for example after Civil War until we found out what an Irredeemable hippocrit Xavier was and that most of the team are actually really self centered jerks. )

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

And I'm not looking forward to anything of marvels except for there upcoming continuity reboot. Yes, I can already see hulk getting the short end of the stick coming around the corner here, but maybe others, like Spider-man, like Daredevil, Like the X-men, Like Captain America, Like Dr. Strange, and Like Iron Man, will once more be readable and even likeable!

Then I have bad news for you.

There is no reboot.

No. Reboot.

they just restart bunch of their propherites from issue 1, but there is no reboot whatsoever, nothing in continuity changes. At all.

And quite frankly, Hulk has the best chances of getting on the top with thi thing, Mark Waid is currently having a blast with his more optimistic and adventure-focused Daredevil run (which, is what you shold give a try from what I see coming from you). On the other hand we're getting:
- Nova nad Guardians of the Galaxy, two of my favorite who had very soild runs two years ago ago being respectively replaced by annoying brat from Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, written by poibly the worst writer at current Marvel staff, Jeph Loeb and being written by Brain Bendis, who already proven that he writes bad team comics, doesn't feel good writing big-scale cosmic adventures, doe't understand the characters and couldn't even bother to explain why two members of the team that died after the end of their last series are suddenly alive. Also, he took Star-Lord's helmet away.
- Avengers Arena series that takes several fan-favorite teenage superheroes from teams such liek Runaways and Avengers Academy and throws them into Battle Royale situation, so we can see them getting brutally killed one after another.
- 3 Avengers series with mostly the same people in every single one of them - we have Captain America in 3 teams and Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, hawkeye and Black Widow in two.
- Bendis, guy who writes as bad team series as good his olo series are, writing new main X-Men flagship title. With original X-men from the past.
- Spider-man being replaced by...somebody, so his series may take darker and grittier turn.
- Thunderbolts beign given to Daniel Way, guy who is second best candidate for Marvel's worst writer at the moment.

Yeah before you get your hopes up, check out what they're actually selling.

Of course they also have the good tuff - new Young Avengers and new Hulk series looks very promising.

Further, all of DC AND Marvels problems could go away, all it would take is a couple of people who give enough of a care about them to be willing to tell the the other Executives and the writers to cut the crap, show them what is being defined as the crap, or get out, and show them that there replacements, equally dedicated, are already lined up at the drop of a hat.

Either the bad apples get replaced with good ones, or become acceptable ones.

The problem is getting a person like that in control.

No, the real problem is to make it happen with both companies at the same time. In 2010 Marvel tried to stop huge crossover event craze, instead introducing handful of much smaller crossovers. DC however did huge crossover event and beaten them at sales, which is why Marvel returned to doing it old-fashioned way, giving us godawful crap like Feat Itself and Avenges Vs. X-Men.

And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix, if it's handled right. Now, I grant you, If they blow it here, I'm gonna go right back to what I've been doing with them since civil war. Only reading occasional choice selections that I hear were really, really, really good. (World War Hulk for example.), or Continuity's that didn't get destroyed again. (I still read X-men lines for example after Civil War until we found out what an Irredeemable hippocrit Xavier was and that most of the team are actually really self centered jerks. )

Again, there is no reboot, everything stays in continuity.

And honestly, you can write around these things, they give you potential t otry something new with characters, to take them in new direction, to make things evolve. Reboots only make people don't care about the storie, makes them think they don't matter because there won't be any permament change or real consequences and they are used to enforce status quo that was good several decades ago and now is ot of place in current world. Linakra did excellent rants about this in his 200th episode.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

...
...
...

...well, that ruined my hopes for them rather nicely.

Ok, so, Daredevil, have they fixed the tiny problem of Stark having destroyed his entire life when he arrested him and made his real Identity a confirmed public fact during/after Civil War? If so I could read things about Matt Mardock again, I always liked him.

Yeah, Hulks had the best stuff since Civil War for the most part. And since no Reboot, that's apparently gonna remain the same.

And someone else is Spiderman COULD work, if handled right. But for the love of all humanity don't repeat what you did to him in Ultimate verse.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Ok, so, Daredevil, have they fixed the tiny problem of Stark having destroyed his entire life when he arrested him and made his real Identity a confirmed public fact during/after Civil War?

...That didn't happen. In Civil War Tony did arrested Daredevil but
a) he did not unmasked him
b) it was Danny Rand, iron Fist, who was dressed as Daredevil.

Daredevil was already arrested in his own series before Civil War even started, and his idientity was exposed long before that (50 issues earlier to be specific).

While unmasking is still in continuity, Mark Waid found a way to deal with it, or rather around it, mostly realted to the fact that nobody has any soild evidence to prove Matt is DD. Generally, Waid took the approach to make more optimistic series than last 3 DD writers (Bendis, Brubaker and Diggle, who, with exception of last one, very really goo by the way) - he wanted Daredevil stories that don't make him say "I need a friggin drink".

Yeah, Hulks had the best stuff since Civil War for the most part. And since no Reboot, that's apparently gonna remain the same.

Actually, Hulk had some bad parts since Civil War, namely Red Hulk saga and confuing Jason Aaron's run. Waid is a chance for him to shine again.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Well, the writer said that he never would have written the story until the editor/executive/whatever-were-calling-his-higher-up came in and told him what they wanted and to do it or else.

And I'm willing to give them a chance if they can fix the major damage they've done to themselves in the last seven or so years. The characters themselves aren't bad, they've still had many, many great stories and the potential for many more. But it becomes impossible to write around some things in your history, like taking off your mask and giving the world your secret Identity, like deciding to force everyone else to register and work for the government when a major point of your character has always been that you consider the government utterly inept, end of story, or Like betraying and Exhaling and old friend whom you've fought for all that was good side by side with against overwhelming odds many times, and then later being party accidentally killing his wife.

That's the sort of thing a Reboot has a chance to fix.

OK, if the overall idea was bad and it was ordered from above yes that's your editor's fault. But it's your editor's fault regardless of whether you think it was a good idea or not. Maybe you can do something to salvage mediocrity from that and maybe you can't. However, you can't just say that the editor make a mistake because he wasn't a "true fan." By any objective measure he's probably a major fan of comic books. He just had a crappy idea. That may make him a bad editor but it doesn't mean he's not a 'true fan.' The idea that 'if we just get the REAL fans in charge, comic's will be great again' is just your standard No True Scotsman fallacy.

As to reboots in general, if you want big dynamic changes to drive the development of your characters over time, you can't just rewind them all the time. If you give your character to a crappy writer and they do a crappy job, guess what, you can't have it both ways. Comic book writing is, for the most part, terrible and we can argue back and forth for why that is until the heat death of the universe.

If you want to tell a new story, make a new character. But the ones you've got have to live with the decisions they make.

Originally Posted by Man on Fire

Then I have bad news for you.

There is no reboot.

No. Reboot.

they just restart bunch of their propherites from issue 1, but there is no reboot whatsoever, nothing in continuity changes. At all.

And quite frankly, Hulk has the best chances of getting on the top with thi thing, Mark Waid is currently having a blast with his more optimistic and adventure-focused Daredevil run (which, is what you shold give a try from what I see coming from you). On the other hand we're getting:
- Nova nad Guardians of the Galaxy, two of my favorite who had very soild runs two years ago ago being respectively replaced by annoying brat from Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, written by poibly the worst writer at current Marvel staff, Jeph Loeb and being written by Brain Bendis, who already proven that he writes bad team comics, doesn't feel good writing big-scale cosmic adventures, doe't understand the characters and couldn't even bother to explain why two members of the team that died after the end of their last series are suddenly alive. Also, he took Star-Lord's helmet away.
- Avengers Arena series that takes several fan-favorite teenage superheroes from teams such liek Runaways and Avengers Academy and throws them into Battle Royale situation, so we can see them getting brutally killed one after another.
- 3 Avengers series with mostly the same people in every single one of them - we have Captain America in 3 teams and Wolverine, Spider-Woman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, hawkeye and Black Widow in two.
- Bendis, guy who writes as bad team series as good his olo series are, writing new main X-Men flagship title. With original X-men from the past.
- Spider-man being replaced by...somebody, so his series may take darker and grittier turn.
- Thunderbolts beign given to Daniel Way, guy who is second best candidate for Marvel's worst writer at the moment.

Yeah before you get your hopes up, check out what they're actually selling.

Of course they also have the good tuff - new Young Avengers and new Hulk series looks very promising.

No, the real problem is to make it happen with both companies at the same time. In 2010 Marvel tried to stop huge crossover event craze, instead introducing handful of much smaller crossovers. DC however did huge crossover event and beaten them at sales, which is why Marvel returned to doing it old-fashioned way, giving us godawful crap like Feat Itself and Avenges Vs. X-Men.

Again, there is no reboot, everything stays in continuity.

And honestly, you can write around these things, they give you potential t otry something new with characters, to take them in new direction, to make things evolve. Reboots only make people don't care about the storie, makes them think they don't matter because there won't be any permament change or real consequences and they are used to enforce status quo that was good several decades ago and now is ot of place in current world. Linakra did excellent rants about this in his 200th episode.

I can't speak to what is/isn't getting rebooted but the last paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say. Reboots are just the band-aid over the bullet wound, they don't fix the underlying problem and they undermine your ability to convince a reader they should be invested in your world, since everything could snap back to before without warning.

Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

I didn't say it was because he wasn't a true fan. I said the Executives allowed him to do stuff really bad stuff because they though the shock value would sell more issues. I don't know or really care if that's what he was looking at when he ordered it or if he actually though this was gonna be great. He needs to keep his hands out, because yes, making a deal with the devil to bring your aunt back when the devil isn't even in your continuity till right now is a pretty bad idea, and it was ordered that way from above.

Personally, at this point, if I could get free range, I could fix most of this given some time. Let's use One More Day as an example.

Ok, first problem was Mephisto showing up Deus Ex Machina style. With out him, we don't have the mess. My though would be that we find out Spidermans on the only he's playing games with, and that he get's himself into hot water when he tries a similar game on a being powerful enough to take him head on. Thanos, Eternity, Lady Death, take your pick the universe also has others, doesn't matter, just as long as they can beat the tar out of him. Once they've done so, as a side effect of having come withing a fraction of an inch of getting wasted, he loses his ability to maintain most of the other deals he's pulled. That includes the one with Peter Parker.

That fixes his end of it, but were still back to them being couple on the run. This is VERY easy to get out of by itself. All he has to do is be given a pardon. Why? Could be any number of reasons. Maybe he saves the presidents life when everyone else very clearly would have failed to do so. Maybe the President is being tricked by Norman Osborn who's got his own wheels within wheels thing going. Just for a couple of possibility's off the top of my head. The point is to get it to were there at least not Illegal anymore.

Now the fun begins. (Note: Not sure this still works, because I'm not really sure what Tony Starks up to these days, haven't touched him since Civil War unless it was specifically to watch him eat a beat down he'd more then earned.)

Let him get into a fight, with someone a couple of tier's above his own power level, someone who Canon pretty firmly says he can't take solo. Doesn't matter who as long as that criteria is met. Let him have a near death experience, were he get's to have a chat with Aunt May and Uncle Ben, and be told "Look, you've saved the world more times then a person can count on there fingers, saved the city more times then that, and saved so many lives it's staggering to think about, and that's not even all the good you've done. You can stop beating yourself up because you couldn't stop every bad thing ever form happening, it's ok, you can let it go, forgive yourself, start moving on in life. Since at the end of the day, that's his underlying emotional and psychological problem. He can't let go of things like what happened to his Aunt and Uncle.

Parker actually takes a few months off the streets after that, and does some good old fashion tinkering. And then goes and has a little chat with one Tony Stark. The chat is him basically reminding Stark about how many times he has saved Stark either Directly or In Directly over the years, and that Stark destroyed his life for quite awhile. So now, he want's a very small favor. A Patent Lawyer willing to wait for the first Royalties check to take his payment, and who will be honest and not try to steal his ideas. One trip to the Patent office later, Parkers got a few nifty things patented in his name, no stuff that would change the face of the universe or even north American society on there own, but that with them selling and the royalties he get's, allow him to tell Mr. J. Johna Jamison to get lost and live and support his family very comfortably off that income.

Now, next part, we introduce a plucky young character with a similar if not Identical power set. Fashion them how ever you like. Parker takes him/her under his wing for a few years, helps them avoid a lot of pitfalls he walked head first into when he was figuring this stuff out for himself, and then, after about two or three years of this (Maybe more depending.), he hands over the costume, and unless it's end of the world or bigger, get's out of the trenches.

Congratulations, I just fixed it, now I need Marvel to let me get with the art department and then to actually publish it.

It's just too bad so many other chunks of there continuity need that kind of overhaul.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

See that sort of idea I like because it isn't a reboot, and it actually closes out Peter Parker's story instead of wallowing in it and snapping back when it strays too far from the status quo. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be tricky, he's still out in the open as the former spider man and the villains aren't going to care about a presidential pardon. The problem will come a few years down the line when a new writer takes on the line, sales slump (not necessarily for any reason, maybe just a rocky few months for no explainable reason. It happens) and comic book fans start screaming about how this proves that Peter Parker was the only REAL Spider-Man... And soon we're back to square one.

It's awfully hard to leave a mark on a property like that when it will someday be taken over by someone else with different ideas of how to run it.

Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

See, you clearly don't understand Spiderman fans. They can't relate to or care about a Spiderman who's not a worthless loser who can't get a girlfriend and still lives with his substitute parent(s).

Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards

"Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

I'm a long time spiderman fan. And you know what, it would be the first time I've ever scene a main universe story line were in he's actually consistently winning with out massive sacrifices to get there, and even more so since he's not just winning against villain of the story arch, he's actually getting life together and moving forward with it, becoming successful and getting over his demons.

And as for being targeted, well, Ante May is dead, Canon if I remember correctly is that everyone else in his life of importance is either themselves super or dead. Except Mary Jane and the Daughter he didn't get the chance to have. The latter can very easily be dealt with similarly to how he handled Stark. He goes to Fury, and mentions that guess what, I could have this organization destroyed with a quarter the things I've learned about it over the time I've been in the hero game and never blabbed about, and I've saved your bacon so many times I've lost count. Your gonna do one thing for me. Cover my kid. Make sure that when Sandman and Hobgoblin and Doc Oc and Craven and Hydroman show up, there aiming for me or Mary Jane simply because they can't get a clean shot at the kids until the kids can defend themselves.

Then of course as the kids get older, they get powers and can freaking look after themselves when they get to a certain point.

And as for MJ, well, everyone else who isn't presently dead in his life has had something super happen to them at some point. Everyone except MJ. Why not let her get in on the act just for craps and giggles. I personally think a Symbiote and finding out she's got a Mutant X Gene that causes her body to automatically override the problems with having one of the symbiotes but keeps them locked too you for the benefits would be a way to go that would be unexpected. (Unless it's canon that the Symbiotes work on her just like everyone else. In which case need something else to work with.) And hey, guess what, she's no longer stuck as the constant damsel in distress. I think the only other Time I've seen that angle with her was Mangaverse.

Now, the problem with is is having to do it to ALL of these characters that are making people beat there heads against the nearest wall/desk/tree/ext.

Stark needs it. Cap Needs it (Less so but still there.), The entirety of the X-men Line needs it with the arguable exception of Deadpool (Who Is arguable cause I don't think he's technically considered a member of there roster.), The Avengers Team needs it, Dr. Strange Needs it, Hulk could get away with out it, Daredevil maybe if we've at least fixed the whole "It's a confirmed fact that he's Matt Mardock" problem, Thor is more or less perfectly in character up to this point and has been one of Marvels remaining Highlights so he's fine, Hank Pym Desperately needs it, and in his case, I maintain that a ground up reboot or a very final death are really the only ways his problems end in a way that is satisfactory,

Yeah, that's 6 to 3 out of nine that really need it, just off the top of my head.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Should be noted there have been plenty real fans running the asylums for a long time now.

Indeed. The relationship between comic book fans and comic book publishers is a rather toxic, incestuous, and codependent one. That was kind of my point in responding to Meta's idea of how you could satisfyingly conclude Peter Parker's story. Comic book 'culture' (and I use the term loosly, as I'm lukewarm on the idea of [medium] culture in general) wouldn't let you make a permanent or even lasting change.

I firmly believe that the best way to tell a good story is to ignore the fans who think they know what they want. They don't, and you'll end up catering to a whiny minority opinion.

But you can probably tell from this thread so far that I'm rather cynical towards comic books in general. I'm reading the last couple pages of the Celestia vs. Superman thread and I just can't help noticing how DUMB they sound.

Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.

Re: Batman: Death of the Family

Originally Posted by Eakin

Indeed. The relationship between comic book fans and comic book publishers is a rather toxic, incestuous, and codependent one. That was kind of my point in responding to Meta's idea of how you could satisfyingly conclude Peter Parker's story. Comic book 'culture' (and I use the term loosly, as I'm lukewarm on the idea of [medium] culture in general) wouldn't let you make a permanent or even lasting change.

I firmly believe that the best way to tell a good story is to ignore the fans who think they know what they want. They don't, and you'll end up catering to a whiny minority opinion.

But you can probably tell from this thread so far that I'm rather cynical towards comic books in general. I'm reading the last couple pages of the Celestia vs. Superman thread and I just can't help noticing how DUMB they sound.

To be fair, most of the something vs. pony's threads are like that, no matter what the ponies are facing. More so since they often assume a lot of fanon for the pony's, or just make up the rules for them on the spot.

And you can make a lasting change. Oracle stayed in the wheelchair for 23+ years before the current Reboot. Do you know how many ground shaking changes other none comic book franchises under went in the mean time while she was still in that chair?