Long faces in hachi-roku land. Following a multi-year propaganda campaign, expectations for an “affordable” sports car collide with hard (currency) realities.

Toyota today announced dealer pricing for the 2013 Scion FR-S compact rear-wheel drive sports car. The FR-S (a.k.a. Toyota FT/GT86/86/Subaru BRZ) starts with a manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) of $24,200 when equipped with a six-speed manual transmission, and $25,300 when equipped with a six-speed paddle shifted auto. Those who expected $19,000 or less: Save some more.

The car “will go on sale this spring” in the U.S., says Toyota. And not on August sixth or June 8th, as surmised by some bloggers who are fascinated by Asian numerology. First cars rolled off the line in Japan last week and should be in the U.S. some time in April.

There is one news outlet that is absolutely ecstatic about the pricing: USA Today. “We doubt anyone expected the starting price for the 2013 Scion FR-S to be this low,” says the paper.

120 Comments on “Hachi-Roku Pricing Announced. Got 25K?...”

Given that the nearest Kia dealer charges $4000 for pinstripes and door-edge guards on a $17000 car, I suspect the Toyota dealers will find a way to charge $5000 for enhanced turn signal relays, counter-rotating lugnuts, and color-coordinated tread markets.

One is a *very* small 2-door lightweight RWD sportscar; the other is a compact 4-door AWD sedan/wagon.

I can take 4 adults out to dinner in reasonable comfort, haul firewood, and pick up Craigslist furniture in an Impreza. A BRZ will do none of these things well, but I’d much rather hit a windy mountain road with it than a $16k Impreza.

The differences are so fundamental it’s hard to even come up with a list: different mission, different execution.

As I recall, they don’t even have the same powertrain.

Other than the boxer engine layout and the possibility of a Subaru badge on the hood, what do you see as being similarities between the two cars?

What’s the difference between a 5.0 Mustang and a 5.0 F150? They’re both RWD V8 Fords, right?

It isn’t all that over-priced, but it is above its sweet spot. At least for me; at this price it is a possibility to consider. If it had come in at 20-22k before dealer gouging it would have been much more compelling.

Also, in the US market the HP ratings on those American V6s are going to hurt potential sales. Should have tried to come in $100 cheaper than the base Mustang.

The MX-5 brings a vastly more sophisticated suspension and a more trustworthy inline four. If Mazda ever thought to offer a swiftly-styled coupe Miata with a little more than “good enough” under the hood, there would be no FT-86. Alas, that never happened, and we’re happy someone stepped up.

Two things concern me, though. The BRZ is a sports car with an econocar suspension design that gains cambers in roll, bad news for autocross/lapday weekend warriors. Also, as a long-term ownership proposition, I’m leery of using double the number of cams, head gaskets, and exhaust plumbing to accomplish the same thing as a reliable Toyota I-4 concoction. Anecdotal evidence on well-used Subarus from the last decade doesn’t give me special confidence.

The BRZ is filled with known cost compromises and parts-binning, and now that frugality is not reflected in the sticker price. That motivates me to sit on my decade-old Miata, wait out used pricing, and watch the reliability of the ultra high compression boxer. At $21-22k-ish out the door for a base manual, it would have been an easier plunge.

If your ‘econocar’ quip is on account of the front struts, Porsche has been using them for pretty much ever on their sports cars. As has BMW on their 3 series, including the M3.

With the kind of super low and stiff sidewalls, as well as short stroke suspensions, that has become the norm on gofast cars these days, plus automakers desire to prevent ‘snap’ oversteer at all cost, struts work just fine on anything other than track cars driven for money.

If I had it my way, cars would have taller and softer sidewalls (for balls out hooning on LA and Detroit city streets, and poorly maintained secondaries, without rim concerns), as well as suspension kits with longer travel than what is optimum for Nurburgring. If so, struts wold be less than ideal; but for a car like the FR-S, why even bother? If struts are good enough for the much faster, more expensive and higher COG Cayman, it should be good enough for the Scion.

enderw88: Great car for a daily driver- probably much more versatile than the Toyota/Scion/Subie. Might not be as light and nimble, but it isn’t giving up much. If you do wind up taking the plunge, a comparison would be great.

You can build a V6 six speed manual Mustang with the technology and track package for roughly 26 grand (With destination fee and such). With rebates in my local area such I can find such cars selling for roughly 24 grand. I maybe young and foolish but to me this would seem to be the more livable and enjoyable combination.

That would be for an outgoing 2012 model, not the new ones. And for the base model, not the Premium (see price argument below). As for your claim that a base rental grade Mustang would be more livable and enjoyable than the 86? Maybe, if you value comfort over dynamics. But if you do, then you are not in the target market for the 86 anyway.

If I was going to buy a 2012 Mustang, I wouldnt bother with a new one, they can be found very slightly used for under $20k all over the place.

The new Mustangs I test drove last fall seemed to handle much better than prior versions. I’m not sure, but I’ve got to believe they made some changes to the suspension not just the engines on these cars with the latest refresh. The big problem for me is that my wife will not except the Mustang in V6 form, knowing how fun it is to drive the V8 version. Just because the new V6 has more power than her 95 Cobra, doesn’t mean it has enough as far as she’s concerned. I’ll need to test drive the Mustang, Genesis, and Scion consecutively to make an informed decision, but it seems unlikely that the extra cost of the Totyota is worth it.

Considering I just paid $15k for an ACCENT?! (brand-new, hatch, 6spd manual) this seems to be a performance bargain.

‘Should have tried to come in $100 cheaper than the base Mustang.’ if Toyota was worried about volume sales, agreed. But considering the hype they’ve built up over the past couple of years with the 86, and how it was supposed to initially be ‘sub $20k’, I don’t think they honestly give a shit if they only sell 10k/year. It’s a niche car.

Does anyone know how much the AE86 would be new in 2012 US$? I tried to look it up but was unable to find.

So you think in the last 3-4 yrs inflation has sent car prices up 25%??

Doubtful. But I am not surprised at the pricing, especially considering that they didnt decontent the crap out of it to hit some artificially low price point. If you option out a Mustang or Camaro you climb very quickly to the high $20s. And yes, the GenCoupe is competitive with it, but its much heavier, and doesn’t come with the Toyota reputation/resale value. I like light cars.

You can get a low mileage 2009 RX8 (the reliable ones) for 16 or 17 grand with pretty low mileage. For as much as I bitch about Mazda (I’m entitled- I’ve had 3), I would get another RX8 before I’d plunk down 25k. Sure the rotary drinks gas, but it would take a LONG time to make up almost 10 grand in gas. ;)

As pointed out, $8,00 will buy a lot of gas even at twice today’s prices. That said, I am leary of used cars with rotary engines. All the posts on-line from people who obviously don’t have a clue about maintenance of a rotary engine makes me beleive that most people selling an RX-8 probably didn’t maintain it as they should have and that engine has led a hard life.

And two years after that when a reliable turbo kit and plenty of suspension bits are available you’ll be able to score one for maybe $16k? I’ll be waiting… I’m driving a $33k RWD V6 sports car now and only paid $18k for it so patience pays! And before someone says it: not all of these will be thrash to death on a track, a few cherry models will survive even if it sells in low numbers.

In more detail – the GT86 and the Mustang serve very different markets. I doubt there will be much cross-shopping. The GT86 will appeal to people who would never consider a Mustang. Toyota and Subaru got the “Add Lightness” religion and that’s my cult too.

I’ll be curious what you think once you’ve test-driven the base models of both cars.

I think the idea that “no one would cross shop the mustang and the FT-86″ is an idea that only applies to car enthusiasts that frequent enthusiast car blogs.

I think there’s a larger market out there looking for fun-to-be-had-for-the-money, and they’ll cross shop everything from GTI to Mustang to FRs to etc…

In that comparison, Toyota may be losing sales at this price, but I don’t think it will keep them up at night. I doubt they ever planned for this to be more than a bone to the enthusiasts, and something to get people on dealer lots for everyone else.

The price is about the same, but they serve two different purposes. Most people want the most food/dollar. I don’t. I want chassis feel, proper gear ratios, a high strung engine, and a low curb weight. I have zero interest in a Mustang. Miata and S2000 are in line with what I want minus the drop top. This car splits the difference perfectly.

But that price is still the Mustang with the rental grade interior. If you want any options, time to pony up for the Premium model. and the gas mileage isn’t as good with the better gearing. I tried this before, and the “cheap” Mustang isn’t so cheap. Plus, if you want a Mustang you can buy them used for much better deals. I have seen several low-milage 2011 GTs in the mid-20s.

Try over $27k with destination charge, and then thats still not with the Performance Pack, which is another $2k. Thats not including electronic upgrades (the BRZ supposedly includes Nav, but I wont quibble or details), and they offer the sweet leather Recaro seats from the Boss for $1500 more, which I really would want as well if I couldnt get the real Boss. So a Premium V6 with Perf Pack is over $29k, with the Recaros its over $31k. There is $1500 on the hood if you could find a 2012 with the right equipment, but then its not the 2013 redesign either.

Thats not a terrible price, but its still significant over the 86. And when you go look at the price of used 2011 V6 Mustangs you will cry if you just bought a 2012 new for $30k. And it STILL won’t sound like a Mustang when you start the engine.

I’m seeing new 2011 and 2012 v6 premiums for right at 25k (granted, the 2013 is coming so that has something to do with it), but I don’t need that other stuff (recaro I’m-a-racer-really-guys seats).
If you don’t intend to track the car, who cares?

NOT with a Performance Pack, which is what I said if you read my post. So add the $2k for the PP and you are now at $27k, and thats for the older model. And thats if you can even find one with a stick and not with a bunch of other options.

You won’t be able to get a 2013 V6 Premium Perf Pack stick shift Mustang for $25k. Maybe $29k. But it still won’t sound like a Mustang is supposed to sound.

As for the Recaros? The stock Mustang seats suck, they were designed for typical Americans who like Big Macs more than exercise. And the Recaros are excellent seats, they look cool too. I am used to the excellent seats in my GTI, and I would prefer to spend a little extra to get the nice seats. The seats in the 86 will most likely be better than the stock Mustang seats too. I didn’t say everyone should buy them, just that I would choose them if I was buying a new Mustang.

Interesting side note here — When I responded to @Keeper above, I got curious and went to Fords site to Build and Price out a base Mustang. Turns out, with the base V6, you can get the Perf Pack and the Tech Pack, and still add the Recaro pack without getting the Premium model. So that actually checks all my boxes for a Mustang… total price $27,380 after the $500 rebate. Thats a lot better IMO. And 8 months from now when the rebates are even better that price would be lower still.

I admit when I am wrong, looks like I was wrong on this one. I would still get the Recaros though! :)

Yep. A couple grand less and they could have a real contender on their hands. It’s too bad. I’ll be waiting for the story on TTAC this fall about FR-S’s gathering dust on Scion lots.
Truecar shows new Civic Si’s in my area going for under 22k. I don’t think too many people cross shopping these cars are going to want to shell out an extra $3k just for RWD, which seems to be the only real difference between these two.

I disagree completely. The target market for this car will easily shell out $3k for RWD. The people who do not care about the RWD factor already have a ton of choices in the market. This car is unique. The only real question is how big is that target market and will they actually buy a new car instead of a equivilent (or better) performing used car.

Are the above prices before destination charges? The Scion Press Release says $24,200 but Scion’s own Twitter feed on the press release page says $24,930. I’m guessing $24,200 does not include destination charges.

I’m disappointed they didn’t follow a price model that had a near 20k stripper with requisite manual transmission that would allow for heavy modification, including a reliable forced induction bolt on, bumping the horsepower and torque figures by 25% to 40% or so, and upgraded shocks/struts/sway bar and brake package, allowing one to get into what could be a fairly good track day rock star for around 26k to 28k.

As is, there are many slightly used cars that are better stock and that are far, far better modified, for similar coin.

I’ll wait until this is properly flogged by someone credible on an appropriate track to render judgment about its price-to-apex flattening ratio, but will stick with my very reliable, much driven, everyday practical and track star worthy RX-8 for now.

I’m not hating on this car, mind you, but I am stating that the apparent inability to buy a stick shift stripper and mod it up to genuine track goodness for an amount that would make sense relative to the price of other very competent vehicles commonly found at the track disappoints.

I do understand the economics and I absolutely believe Toybaru will lose money on nearly every one of these sold in the U.S. unless the Yen does a swan dive verse the USD that’s one for the ages.

Oh, and I like the purist philosophy of the design (even if the suspension wants) and love the exterior and interior minimalism.

They are selling a stripper (down to the painted steel wheels and unpainted bumpers) in the JDM – for something like $35,000 – and I expect we’ll see one here in a year or two. Sooner if it tanks at this price-point.

My expectation is that they will sell the expected number of units, and that they will break even or lose a little money on all the base models they sell.

tell me again why anyone should buy this over the mustang? i’m going to laugh if you mention the ‘handling’ difference. we all know even a base mustang would whoop this thing around virtually any track.

edit: this entirely excludes comparing it with a base wrx, which simply just isn’t fair. a wrx would destroy this thing in any measurable category… for the same price…

I have driven a stock Miata and a stock Mustang on the same windy mountain road, and the Miata is way more fun.

The Mustang may even have been objectively faster. I don’t care, because compared to the the composure and feedback that the Miata offered the Mustang was a big, fuzzy, sloppy, mess. Its much greater power did absolutely nothing to mitigate this.

I’d pick the BRZ hands-down over a Mustang, due in no small part to the “handling” difference.

I also choose to eat good food rather than simply consuming spoonfuls of purchased-in-bulk peanut butter and corn meal in quantities sufficient to prevent starvation. YMMV.

Indeed. My commute to work and back is about 30 miles; the first half consists of lots of corners and elevation changes, the second half is all boring highway and straight roads. I much enjoy cars that excel at the first half more than the second half.

A suitably powered and tired UPS Van would whoop either of them around most tracks. Noone buys Prius tired 4 cylinder cars to go as fast as possible around wide, smooth racetracks. The whole point of this thing, and the Miata, is to be an INVOLVING drive, not the fastest possible one, both on roads and tracks. Not saying the Mustang isn’t; but if it is, it’s not primarily due to outright track pace.

The handling and braking characteristics are definitely very exciting. The final styling is pretty nice, but not as soul stirring as the original concept.

It is going to be fast – some rough math gives it a 0 to 60 time around 6.2 seconds (assuming a 150 pound driver and 5 gallons of fuel). But it requires premium fuel due to the high compression, and gets V6 MPG when compared to the class with a manual. For the MPG to be that substantially better with the automatic I have misgivings without driving or seeing numbers about the gear ratios.

Is it over priced? Well, at $25K you certainly get into the territory of competitive vehicles. I get the whole wrong wheel drive argument for many of those competitive vehicles, but 98% of car buyers don’t give a crap.

We live in a motoring society where people put chains on the front wheels of Mustangs and the rear wheels of Corollas (seen both) in attempt to move through the snow. That is the average American car buyer like it or not and they simply aren’t going to care about where the power is going to. They are more likely going to care about feeding it premium fuel.

There are some pretty accurate formulas and online calculators out there. Unless Toyota is doing something insane with gear ratios it will be pretty close – hence why I called it rough math. I doubt there is some insanely aggressive rear end on the car given its EPA rating (which would be an immediate give away).

As far as the lets toss out some words to make me sound smart points you tossed out. I know everything I need to know about intake, exhuast, valves, and programming. The engine produces 200 HP. Ya, it really is that simple.

If you’re an enthusiast of the car I would be more concerned by the general lack of any performance figures up to this point.

Amazing what will get B&B panties in a bunge – 0 to 60 in 6.2 seconds would be darn respectable for 200 HP. But I’ll gladly revisit what the DEAD STOP to 60 time will be. The rolling start 0 to 60 time will be closer to 5.9 seconds.

As a Canadian, it’s so obvious that you guys are all talking U.S. pricing. And depressing. All the cars you’re describing for low to mid 20’s are like high 20’s to mid 30’s in Canada. Especially the GTI and WRX. We really get hosed here, even nowadays.

Well I looked into this before, about 4 years ago when our dollar was slightly better than par. Basically you’d buy the car, and then declare what you’re doing at the border. Pay the tax, 5% and a special license fee of a couple hundred dollars. Then get an out-of-province inspection, blah blah blah, and then you’re in. There’s a few more wrinkles but nothing too terrible, afaik.

However, after the last round of this going on, 3 or 4 years ago, the mfr’s clamped down, hard, on new cars especially. Like, no warranty, and refusing to supply a special letter to the government saying your car is clear of recalls and thigns like that. So even if you can do everything else, the car makers can still stop you dead. IIRC, Honda and VW were the hardest. Subaru was easier.

Well, color me “not surprised” by this price – about $25k was what I was expecting. All of the folks who were declaring “It’ll be $23k!” “No, it has to be under $22k or it’ll flop!” “I’m pretty sure Toyota will sell this for $19k!” were projecting their fantasies. I mean, a new Miata *starts* at $23,500, and the 86/BRZ is higher performance.

Now we’re in for months of enthusiasts moaning about how it’s too expensive, until the first sales reports come out. Hopefully that’ll shut them up.

Personal anecdote time: I’m a few years out of college, and drive a Miata. I have a buddy with a Scion tC and a Miata, and he’s strongly debating trading one of them in for an 86 when it comes out. Another friend is a truck guy, has only ever owned trucks and currently drives a Silverado 1500HD full-time, but has already pre-ordered a BRZ. A third friend is strongly debating pre-ordering one.

Every car guy I know is foaming at the mouth for the 86, no matter what they drive. One guy was planning to buy a Cayman and is waiting to drive this first. You dont get that with the Mustang. I happen to LOVE Mustangs, so its not hate. I also happen to love lightweight RWD cars that channel the classic RWD Japanese sport coupes of the 80s. I wouldn’t want a Mustang that wasn’t the V8, thats just my preference. The V6, regardless of performance, will always be a rental car to me. But a GT, equipped the way I want it, is around $34k. The Boss 302 I really want it $42k (I think). Throw in the crappy city mileage and its not even in the running for me. But the 86 hits all the right buttons, even my wife approves.

For those who profess disappointment in the price, I can understand how you feel as we’d all like the cars we want to be a little more affordable. However, they they will not be making large numbers of these vehicles and they will sell everyone of them. Expect dealer markups throughout most of 2012.

With the talk of dealer mark-ups, has Toyota changed their policy regarding dealer mark-ups for the Scion brand? They basically required dealers to sell Scions at no more than MSRP when they first came out with the brand (the 1st Gen xB was popular enough to sell above MSRP as evidenced by the smallest lot inventories of any car on the market back then).

I don’t know how it was worded at the brand’s inception, but the current Scion “Pure Price” policy simply means that no haggling is allowed and the price shown in dealer ads/website is the price you pay for the car and it must include any added dealer accessories.

So a dealer can’t knock $700 off an Xb if you “buy today”.

Markups and markdowns are still allowed at the discretion of the individual dealer, they just have to be disclosed and offered to every shopper.

A late model S2000 and an OEM hard top would still be less than the FR-S; but as you said, no joy of new car ownership. I paid less than half of an FR-S for a pristine condition AP1 S2000 that hasn’t so much hesitated as I’ve beaten the hell out of her for over a year now; tough to beat that smiles per dollar equation.

There has yet to be a new car released in the last 5 years that makes me want to break up my stable of used cars. I think our garage’s total original MSRP is about $150k. For a cheapskate like me, I enjoy the fact that we paid for almost none of the depreciation. But there aren’t many people who have the time/skill/energy to maintain used cars, won’t balk at the first sign of an ‘issue’, and don’t care about the latest and greatest.

I guess I’m in the minority in seeing this car as being priced right where I expected it – in the thick of the Genesis, Mustang, GTi, Mini, 500 Abarth, MS3, Civic Si compact sporty car crunch. The Genesis coupe and Mustang V6 are perhaps closest in mission, but despite their higher levels of power, their hundreds of extra pounds of weight will make their driving experiences nothing like the scion. A BMW blog called this car the reincarnation of the e30 M3 (their numbers and specs are right on top of each other), and if you consider that car cost $34k in the 1980s, this car doesn’t seem like such a bad deal.

One thing to remember is that since this is a Scion, it will sell for $25K. Whereas all those other cars mentioned (MX5, Genesis Coupe, Mustang, Camaro etc) all have wriggle room built in and probably sell for $1000 less than MSRP+Delivery.

As an aside I would love to see manufacturers follow the practice in the UK and include delivery in their list price. Why keep it separate? It is a mandatory and non negotiable cost.

The price is academic for potential buyers. Toyota could have priced it at $19,900 and the dealers would still be charging first year buyers $30,000. The only difference is that this way the dealers will be making $5,000 off each car instead of $10,000. I just assume have the money go to the people who developed and built the car so they’ll be inclined to build another one. My local Ford stealership has over $20,000 in markups on each of the 6 Boss 302s on their lot. I’d rather Ford was making the money as a reward for building a car people want. When the Miata first came out, the price on the sticker was a bit over $13K, but dealers wanted over $20K. When the Lexus LS400 came out, the price was $35K but dealers wanted $44K. When the Porsche 944 came out, the price was $18,600 but dealers wanted $25K and fellatio. Supply and demand will determine the price. All Toyota and Subaru is doing is trying to figure out how to get close to the transaction price so they’re the ones making gross profits instead of the dealers.

Although the price is higher then I would of liked, I still think it is fair enough.
This car is 100% Japanese built, can you even buy cars actually made in Japan anymore?
I think that would make a car of this caliber have a special build quality that you would never find in its competitors like the Genesis
or Mustang or at least I hope it would.