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Topic: Orthodoxy and assisted suicide (Read 10814 times)

So I watched a film tonight called, "You don't know Jack" where Al Pacino portrayed Jack Kevorkian. I thought it was an intriguing film, very well made and acted.

So how does Orthodoxy view assisted suicide? If a person was terminally ill and suffering every day of their life waiting to die, would the Church look down upon a person for getting an assisted suicide? Would they be allowed to have an Orthodox burial/funeral?

We'll start with these questions, but i'm sure other will come up. This should be an interesting discussion.

I don't know about Orthodoxy, but I'm firmly in favor of it. I say that not as someone wanting to "bump off" people once they get to a certain age or degree of disability and/or pain, but as someone who would just like for people to have that option. The idea that "you're playing God" when you take your own life (or someone helps you take it) is bullshit. I'm watching my grandmother (who was also my legal guardian earlier in life) deteriorate before my eyes, and I don't want to lose her. I would hate for her to get an assisted suicide (if such things were available). Yet, I wouldn't stand in her way, and I can think of situations in which I would take advantage of such a procedure.

I'm doubtful as to whether such people wouldn't be permitted an Orthodox funeral, however. I remember ozgeorge saying something along the lines of, in his Church, that if it could be shown that they had been diagnosed with a mental illness then they could get an Orthodox funeral after committing suicide. But Orthodoxy is so behind the 8 ball regarding even the cremation issue, so I have little hope that they can form a sensible and sensitive approach to assisted suicide.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Well technically, it isn't killing, because the doctor doesn't pull the plug, the patient does. Would you call it killing if you were assigned the responsibility of deciding whether to pull the plug on a loved one who was in a coma and decided to do so?

Well technically, it isn't killing, because the doctor doesn't pull the plug, the patient does. Would you call it killing if you were assigned the responsibility of deciding whether to pull the plug on a loved one who was in a coma and decided to do so?

So what should happen to someone who kills in a war? Or who kills protecting their family from armed assailants? Should they be put on trial? What about people who deal with executions of criminals on death row--are they going to hell? What exactly are you saying here? Also, what do you make of the argument--one I believe--that the commandment would be better translated "thou shalt not murder". After all, a prohibition against killing would be an absurd commandment to give to the Jews of the time... I mean, have you read the Old Testament lately? Killing is par for the course. In fact, in some books it's glorified.

It is these hard and fast rules that irk me sometimes. For example "do not lie":

Well, what if you were living in germany around the mid 20th century and you were hiding Ann Frank in your attic and several Nazi inquisitors showed up at your door asking if you were housing any Jews. Would you tell them that you were hiding her up there? Or would you lie and save her from them?

War and killing in a war, while deemed a necessity is still not good, nor a preferred event. It is done in order to safeguard lives.

Assisted suicide does not safeguard a life. It ends one.

Yes, it may end the person's pain and misery. However, an unwanted pregnancy also causes misery and pain....so, is abortion okay in that case?

I completely understand the dilemma. It's a horrible position to be in.

I hope and pray nobody ever finds it preferable to end their life, over living it.

However, God said NO. No killing.

Therefore, as the OP is inquiring about Orthodoxy and assisted suicide....the answer is NO.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

If we give up on our own lives, because of pain or whatever reason, then why should we expect God to give us a new life in the new heaven? If we so desperately want to throw away his gift (and life IS a gift), why would we expect the new life given to us through His Son?

Surely, we should embrace life as much as possible if only for the chance at more and greater repentance. If I were ever given the choice between the death penalty and life in prison, I would gladly take life in prison, not because I fear death, but because I still have the chance to repent while I wear this flesh.

If we give up on our own lives, because of pain or whatever reason, then why should we expect God to give us a new life in the new heaven? If we so desperately want to throw away his gift (and life IS a gift), why would we expect the new life given to us through His Son?

Surely, we should embrace life as much as possible if only for the chance at more and greater repentance. If I were ever given the choice between the death penalty and life in prison, I would gladly take life in prison, not because I fear death, but because I still have the chance to repent while I wear this flesh.

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Again, it's not the best solution, however, I am certain that many people through suffering have become humbled, realized their immortality and had the opportunity to find God before they die.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 02:14:40 AM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

That is a good question. What of those who are brain dead? Are they still really alive?

One of the people that Kevorkian helped to die wanted to die because she thought she had MS. However, when an autopsy was done on her, she did not have MS. Wouldn't it have been better for her if someone had tried to prevent her from killing herself instead of her killing herself in this case?

I don't think the Orthodox have a problem with living wills. Just have one of those (of course, you should talk with your priest first). I would not expect anyone to assist me in killing myself. It would be bad enough that I'd have to answer to Christ for committing suicide, but I sure wouldn't want anyone else to have to answer to Christ for helping me to do it!

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

That is a good question. What of those who are brain dead? Are they still really alive?

Personally, I do think they are alive. After all, are the developmentally disabled less alive because their mental capabilities are diminished? By the way, if a family member is in the above shape, you talk to your priest and get advice. If you're worried about this, talk to your priest about a living will and what should go into it.

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

That is a good question. What of those who are brain dead? Are they still really alive?

After all, are the developmentally disabled less alive because their mental capabilities are diminished?

One of the people that Kevorkian helped to die wanted to die because she thought she had MS. However, when an autopsy was done on her, she did not have MS. Wouldn't it have been better for her if someone had tried to prevent her from killing herself instead of her killing herself in this case?

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

That is a good question. What of those who are brain dead? Are they still really alive?

Personally, I do think they are alive. After all, are the developmentally disabled less alive because their mental capabilities are diminished? By the way, if a family member is in the above shape, you talk to your priest and get advice. If you're worried about this, talk to your priest about a living will and what should go into it.

Well, this is a relief at least. It seems strange to me though that a person can decide whether another lives or dies (in the case of the person mentioned above) yet when the person is conscious and wishes to decide for themselves, they are not allowed to do so. So the difference here seems to be the level of consciousness. So if I was a vegetable, completely dependant upon others, bed ridden, etc. it wouldn't be acceptable for me to ask for a lethal injection, but if I was in the same state and unconcsious, it would be ok for someone else to make the call on whether I live or die or not (given I provide them with a living will)? It just seems like a double standard here.

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

How does my view of a compassionate God contradict scriptures and the view of the Fathers?

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

How does my view of a compassionate God contradict scriptures and the view of the Fathers?

You believe that the Holy Fathers don't condemn suicide?

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

How does my view of a compassionate God contradict scriptures and the view of the Fathers?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

How does my view of a compassionate God contradict scriptures and the view of the Fathers?

You believe that the Holy Fathers don't condemn suicide?

Wouldn't a "living will" be considered a form of suicide as well, because you are giving someone permission to take you off of life support thus ending your life, yet this was said to be acceptable in an earlier post. What's the difference between giving written consent via a "living will" or giving oral consent? Is conciousness the key distinction here between what is acceptable and what is not?

So living out one's last days in agony is looked upon as preferable in God's eyes? Would he rather we promote human suffering or do our best to alleviate it?

You aren't talking about alleviating suffering, you are talking about snuffing life out.

And why limit it to one's last days? Why should we suffer at all?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

So living out one's last days in agony is looked upon as preferable in God's eyes? Would he rather we promote human suffering or do our best to alleviate it?

You aren't talking about alleviating suffering, you are talking about snuffing life out.

And why limit it to one's last days? Why should we suffer at all?

Well, that is a good question. What about the elimination of suffering in general? Is this looked down upon as well? I could see how it certainly could be. This seems to me to be the premise of why it is bad to end a life of a terminally ill patient who is suffering; that is, it prevents them from "carrying their cross to completion" or it is seen as a rejection by them to share in "Christ's suffering". So what about alleviating other aspects of pain in this life, either emotional or physical, by medication or other means? Is this looked down upon by the Church?

So living out one's last days in agony is looked upon as preferable in God's eyes? Would he rather we promote human suffering or do our best to alleviate it?

You aren't talking about alleviating suffering, you are talking about snuffing life out.

And why limit it to one's last days? Why should we suffer at all?

Well, that is a good question. What about the elimination of suffering in general? Is this looked down upon as well? I could see how it certainly could be. This seems to me to be the premise of why it is bad to end a life of a terminally ill patient who is suffering; that is, it prevents them from "carrying their cross to completion" or it is seen as a rejection by them to share in "Christ's suffering". So what about alleviating other aspects of pain in this life, either emotional or physical, by medication or other means? Is this looked down upon by the Church?

well, why not do it right and embrace drinking and drugs, to numb the sharp corners of life?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If we give up on our own lives, because of pain or whatever reason, then why should we expect God to give us a new life in the new heaven? If we so desperately want to throw away his gift (and life IS a gift), why would we expect the new life given to us through His Son?

Surely, we should embrace life as much as possible if only for the chance at more and greater repentance. If I were ever given the choice between the death penalty and life in prison, I would gladly take life in prison, not because I fear death, but because I still have the chance to repent while I wear this flesh.

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

No one suffers needlessly. Those who suffer because of their sins receive cleansing, and those who suffer innocently suffer with Christ and will be rewarded. Everybody wins. It is those who do not suffer at all that will have to worry.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

If an Orthodox Christian were to take the life of another or even assist them to commit suicide, then they would have automatically excommunicated themselves.

My priest told me that anyone who takes the life of another, even indeliberately, cannot receive Holy Communion. Homicide, suicide, abortion, and euthanasia are all forms of murder.

It would be wise if this question were addressed to your priest.

How far can we extend this? If an Orthodox was put in charge over a loved one who was in a coma and kept on life support in the hospital and told that they were not going to recover by the doctors, and the Orthodox made the decision to 'pull the plug' on their loved one, would they be excommunicated by the Church? Would you consider this to fall under the category of murder as well? If not, then where is the line drawn? It is determined by the patients quality of life, their level of consciousness, or what?

That is a good question. What of those who are brain dead? Are they still really alive?

According to the Church, yes. Death occurs when the heart stops.

As for "pulling the plug," I do not see a real issue with removing artificial means of life support since they are artificial. We are not obligated to accept these measures. If a person has stated a wish not to be artificially kept alive, it can be abided by without moral detriment to the person or loved ones who support the decision.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

A chance at greater repentance, or perhaps greater condemnation; it depends on how you see it. Why would God want a person to have a painful, slow death as opposed to a quick, painless one? Would a good and loving Creator want any of his creatures to suffer needlessly?

Whether it is condemnation or repentance, the choice is still yours. That needs to be highlighted. There is still choice in that.

But, who are you to say that such suffering is needless? Because we are Christians and loved by God does not guarantee us a life devoid of pain and suffering. We know that Christ's reign is imminent and immanent yet we will still be persecuted by those who hate Him. Is that needless? Your definition of a compassionate God really flies in the face of what the Scriptures teach and what the Fathers proclaim. Are you placing your own view over them?

How does my view of a compassionate God contradict scriptures and the view of the Fathers?

Your understanding of compassion is superficial.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

As for "pulling the plug," I do not see a real issue with removing artificial means of life support since they are artificial. We are not obligated to accept these measures. If a person has stated a wish not to be artificially kept alive, it can be abided by without moral detriment to the person or loved ones who support the decision.

However, we must be careful to seek the advice of medical experts. Sometimes people can revive. Just as in the case of Terry, some experts are quick to rule that a person is in a persistent vegetative state, while other experts are more hesitant. Therefore, second opinions are essential.

And in cases of sudden accidents, if there is a chance that the patient can regain consciousness even momentarily to receive Holy Confession and Communion from a Priest, then that is very important for their eternal life.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.