To go that far off road and pay to camp, the attraction must be high. Hot springs that you can soak in would be it. Being far from crowds (Guadalupe
Canyon) is the next attraction. Beauty, such as the palms, canyon, wildlife, another attraction. Facilities are nice and comforting for many, but less
important to attract campers. They include toilets, tables, palapas, trash cans, a store with basic needs and beer.
I wish you success!

Many US campgrounds ask that you pack out what you pack in, i.e., there are no trash cans - especially in bear country. I know this isn't bear
country, but a requirement to not leave trash behind was not a problem. A distant, ecologically sensitive locale for camping, requiring "someone" to
regularly and properly dispose of trash would necessitate extraordinary effort on the part of a Palomar crew. Or it may just end up in some other
pristine canyon, scattered and blown all over. I don't think a store is necessary - I certainly would not expect it - if you're going that far, you
better be prepared. A few cases of beer, water and colas that he can make a profit from would be nice. Or if you have some locally crafted trinkets
for sale (no expiration date on that). Or someone coming by to sell trinkets, or like the bakery van that used to come by Bahia Conception - super
cool!

Many US campgrounds ask that you pack out what you pack in, i.e., there are no trash cans - especially in bear country. I know this isn't bear
country, but a requirement to not leave trash behind was not a problem. A distant, ecologically sensitive locale for camping, requiring "someone" to
regularly and properly dispose of trash would necessitate extraordinary effort on the part of a Palomar crew. Or it may just end up in some other
pristine canyon, scattered and blown all over. I don't think a store is necessary - I certainly would not expect it - if you're going that far, you
better be prepared. A few cases of beer, water and colas that he can make a profit from would be nice. Or if you have some locally crafted trinkets
for sale (no expiration date on that). Or someone coming by to sell trinkets, or like the bakery van that used to come by Bahia Conception - super
cool!

Totally agree on this, if you can bring it in full, you can take it out empty!

I was surprised to see trash cans in the San Pedro MÃ¡rtir Park's camping areas. However, having seen what happens at other Mexican camps with trash,
I get it.

Goat, try reading... "Facilities are nice and comforting for many, but less important to attract campers."
Guadalupe Canyon (Arturo's) had this, served food, and he was busy.

Now, I am not sure if individual hot tubs are possible at Palomar. At Guadalupe, the source spring is higher than the campsites. Gravity (and PVC
pipes) brought the hot water to all the private campsites. In addition, they had a huge swimming pool with warm water, year-round. The campsites were
high above the stream in the canyon bottom so flash floods didn't cause damage. Wind and fires or vandalism were the enemies at Guadalupe... and
eventually greed.

It was a great run, Canyonman Rob had a good thing going for a few years, but we all get old and if the kids aren't interested, the place dies.

Many US campgrounds ask that you pack out what you pack in, i.e., there are no trash cans - especially in bear country. I know this isn't bear
country, but a requirement to not leave trash behind was not a problem. A distant, ecologically sensitive locale for camping, requiring "someone" to
regularly and properly dispose of trash would necessitate extraordinary effort on the part of a Palomar crew. Or it may just end up in some other
pristine canyon, scattered and blown all over. I don't think a store is necessary - I certainly would not expect it - if you're going that far, you
better be prepared. A few cases of beer, water and colas that he can make a profit from would be nice. Or if you have some locally crafted trinkets
for sale (no expiration date on that). Or someone coming by to sell trinkets, or like the bakery van that used to come by Bahia Conception - super
cool!

Totally agree on this, if you can bring it in full, you can take it out empty!

I was surprised to see trash cans in the San Pedro MÃ¡rtir Park's camping areas. However, having seen what happens at other Mexican camps with trash,
I get it.

Goat, try reading... "Facilities are nice and comforting for many, but less important to attract campers."
Guadalupe Canyon (Arturo's) had this, served food, and he was busy.

Now, I am not sure if individual hot tubs are possible at Palomar. At Guadalupe, the source spring is higher than the campsites. Gravity (and PVC
pipes) brought the hot water to all the private campsites. In addition, they had a huge swimming pool with warm water, year-round. The campsites were
high above the stream in the canyon bottom so flash floods didn't cause damage. Wind and fires or vandalism were the enemies at Guadalupe... and
eventually greed.

It was a great run, Canyonman Rob had a good thing going for a few years, but we all get old and if the kids aren't interested, the place dies.

Average camp at cg runs about $80 per car per night... most camps have two or three car min. I don't know about greed... i guess its what the market
will bear, since its pretty much booked solid through april.

Just from the evidence I have seen/ heard, my opinion is:
The family, who operated the south side and above Arturo's (north side), were (apparently) very jealous of Arturo's huge success. Instead of trying to
provide the level of camping that Arturo provided, they simply forced him out, so campers wouldn't have a choice and would have to use their camp if
they wanted to stay in the canyon.

Arturo's Campo #1 at Guadalupe Canyon offered:
Private campsites, each with its own tub (made with natural rocks and the boulders). A palapa or two were in each site, each site had its own
driveway. There were a few 'not so private' spots too, for less money. You could have a weekend camp, your own hot water tub and usually not hear or
especially not see anyone else. It was worth the rather high cost (for camping).

The other campos had tubs that are pretty open to the rest of the camp, the noise was high (people/ music), and there just was no special ambiance
like Arturo's offered.

Some photos of Arturo's Campo #1 sites/ tubs:

El Sol (Mary Ann Humfreville)

El Mirador

El Mirador

La Cueva

La Jolla B

La Jolla B

La Paloma

La Paloma

La Jolla A

San Marcos

San Marcos

San Marcos

The swimming pool (always warm).

La Jolla B (was our favorite), we do miss the place. Halloween weekend 2008 was our last time camping there, with Hotschott and Val...

La Paloma (Hotschott's favorite site).

Another nice thing about the hot spring at Guadalupe, no strong sulfur smell... It started at 140Â° at the source and by the time it was piped to your
camp the water was still over 100Â°. Each tub had a garden hose with a shut-off valve to fill or spray the water (cools it that way). A plastic quart
bag with sand would serve as a drain stopper. Empty the tub when you leave and the desert sun bleaches the tub clean.

$80 per car + 2 or 3 or MORE cars per site? I haven't been there in about 15 years - New Years when some yahoos started a fire in the palm trees
with fireworks. Crowds at each camp site, plus $80 per car will keep me away. I remember the first time I went in the '70's - $10/night. There were
no palapas, no picnic tables. The tubs were concrete lined depressions with a hole at the upper end for water to flow in - you put a sock or old
towel in the draining end so it would fill up. Heaven! There should be limits on the number of cars per site, number of people per site, quiet time
rules, no fireworks, no littering. Charge per person. The people who come and want peace, quiet, and to enjoy the natural setting will enjoy a
simple camp. Give me a road where I won't get stuck in the sand and I'm there. All the best to you Aveinthebox.

That is how the other side of the canyon operates, sadly.
Arturo had no minimum car numbers but did have a 2 night minimum I think on weekends? It was $50-60 per night in the site La Jolla B, that we liked.
His El Dorado site was the only one that could fit more than 2 cars. Ken Cooke's group stayed there.

There should be limits on the number of cars per site, number of people per site, quiet time rules, no fireworks, no littering. Charge per person.
The people who come and want peace, quiet, and to enjoy the natural setting will enjoy a simple camp. Give me a road where I won't get stuck in the
sand and I'm there. All the best to you Aveinthebox.

Yes. A camp there as described would be a destination for us. Please keep us informed of your progress. If the road is a small challenge that just
adds to the attraction.

Aveinthebox, I saw my friend in La Rumorosa this evening and asked him about ownership. He confirmed that he has his cattle there with Tito Dukes
during the winters. He believes that the Dowling family owns the land at CaÃ±Ã³n Palomar.

The Dowling, Dukes, and Sandoval families (along with a few others, incl. Vizcarra) have generations of cattle ranching in the Sierra de JuÃ¡rez.
There is a lot of interdependence/cooperation and also numerous intermarriages between these families. I find their family history fascinating and
have had the good fortune to meet some of the true pioneers over the decades.

I met a TomÃ¡s Dowling in MatomÃ­ Canyon in 1978. He was probably 80 years old and had so many stories!

In Erle Stanley Gardner's 1968 book, 'Mexico's Magic Square' he writes about Palomar Canyon and their trip to it (from Guadalupe Canyon). A ranch in
Palomar was owned by a SeÃ±or Antonio Dowling and along with a few other cowboys (vaqueros), he lived there.

They are really cool people. A lot of history in the desert and up on the hill. We are still trying to see if we can put the resources together to
get that darn road fixed up. Should know more in a couple of weeks. I will keep posting any progress...

They are really cool people. A lot of history in the desert and up on the hill. We are still trying to see if we can put the resources together to
get that darn road fixed up. Should know more in a couple of weeks. I will keep posting any progress...

Palomar would be nice to visit with some tubs as long as it was quiet and campsites were private. There was that place between Palomar and GC,
Isabella Canyon I think, where somebody had built lodging and a pool. It didn't last long though I have no idea if it was too far to drive or some
other reason.

Palomar would be nice to visit with some tubs as long as it was quiet and campsites were private. There was that place between Palomar and GC,
Isabella Canyon I think, where somebody had built lodging and a pool. It didn't last long though I have no idea if it was too far to drive or some
other reason.

Yes, Canyon Isabel where the general had a secret resort, with its own airstrip.
See photos of it from Neal Johns.

"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez

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"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Ivan R. Misner, Ph.D

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"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes

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"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn

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