Salem's warning from last week:
Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.
Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.
We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.
Thank you,
Salem
---------------------------------
and reposting SoSueMe's warning:
As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.
Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.
A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.
Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.
Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:
Alerting repeatedly on the same poster;
Demanding a specific outcome;
Alerting on the same post more than once.
Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.
Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.
Thank you and please carry on.
Sue aka SoSueMe
Websleuths Co-Owner

------

Please keep discussion focused on what has been presented in testimony and remember to link up as the partial publication ban is still in place

"it doesn't have to be someone they know well, but generally that is what they do".

Chilling ... absolutely chilling ...

Remind you of anyone in particular??? JMO

I was watching these a few days ago. A certain quote from this one stood out to me... "today's the day"...
http://investigation.discovery.com/videos/deadly-women-deadly-attraction.html

matou

04-13-2012, 10:14 PM

Copied from previous thread. Post by Crazilady: I just feel thats what happened. I dont know why something just isnt right.

Something happened in January when she got into that fight with the other inmate and then pleaded guilty to her murdering Tori.

I am not saying she didnt do the deed I just feel that there is something not right with what she is saying about her changed story.

Why all of the sudden 3 months before the start of this trial did she change her testimony?

Everything else is matching up except who said and did what at that moment of time.

I am curious as to who here believes TLM actually killed Tori or if there are other people who are on the fence and others who believe she didnt.

I am stuck in the middle

I don't think she did it. JMO

ChaChaCha

04-13-2012, 10:15 PM

When Cindy described all the dead pets and how they were buried in the backyard throughout the years, I almost vomited. It was bad enough hearing that Casey was a part of the dead animals preparation process for burial and that she attended their burials as early as the impressionable age of four, I really wondered what went on in that household. Are the dead animals part of their family secrets?

Sociopaths begin their sociopathic lives early on. They usually torture and kill animals from a very young age, They get a thrill from this and like a vampire who needs blood to sustain their life, a sociopath has needs to kill and to keep killing, They get a sadistic thrill out of it.

TLM is a sociopath ... it starts with the animals ... work their way up to larger targets ... like a child ...

JMO

ChaChaCha

04-13-2012, 10:15 PM

I was watching these a few days ago. A certain quote from this one stood out to me... "today's the day"...
http://investigation.discovery.com/videos/deadly-women-deadly-attraction.html

I hear ya! I got goosebumps!!!

matou

04-13-2012, 10:16 PM

I wonder if we'll be hearing any more information about MR's childhood? Considering he was living with an aunt and uncle in Drayton I'd say something was up. JMO

maxfactor

04-13-2012, 10:20 PM

I don't think she did it. JMO

I don't think she did either.:moo: The parade of ladies on the witness stand just shows even more how he manipulated and used women. She just got totally sucked in, she thought he was a good catch. And I also think he was gearing up for something else, it looks like he was really ramping up his POF dating, I wouldn't be surprised if had he not been caught one of the women from POF would have been next. MOO

BorgQueen

04-13-2012, 10:28 PM

Not all sociopaths are murderous. Some prefer to psychologically torment their victims, leaving them to live with the scars of that torment for the rest of their lives. They find that more satisfying than killing somebody and ending their torment. Either way, it is disturbing.

In my opinion, TLM is more than simply a sociopath. Yes, she probably is one of those, but she also clearly (in my opinion) has some serious psychological problems, possibly caused by her terrifying childhood (if you could call it that).
Some are saying that they don't believe she had flashbacks and 'snapped', killing Tori as a result, saying that isn't possible because it doesn't make sense. I, personally, think it does make sense, if I twist my mind a little bit and try to think like somebody who has suffered what TLM has suffered. She claimed all she could see was herself at that age when looking at Tori. In my opinion, if this is true, in her mind, she would have been killing herself. Perhaps she wishes that SHE was killed when she was young, and took that out on poor Tori. She is unwell, she is not a normal person, so a normal person's thought process would not apply to her. :moo:
I don't find TLM or her behaviour surprising or confusing. I am more confused by MR's behaviour. That baffles me. Unlike TLM, I think he is of sound mind and understands everything (and everybody) around him perfectly. TLM is damaged by her past, and her perceptions of life are vastly different. I could probably go on and on, but it will eventually sound like I am trying to psychoanalyse them. Owning some textbooks on psychology does not make me a psychologist, so I will refrain from doing so. Pretty sure my point/opinion is clear enough. (and it is just my opinion) :moo:

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by crazilady

I am curious as to who here believes TLM actually killed Tori or if there are other people who are on the fence and others who believe she didnt.

I am stuck in the middle.

In the beginning I believe both of them did it. But after hearing all the evidence, I think he raped Tori, and manipulated TLM into killing her. She had no flashbacks, I think that's a lie because she can't come to terms with what she did. I think that MTR goaded her and dared her just like she said. If TLM hadn't been there, perhaps MTR would have killed Tori himself, but hey how convenient he had a girl who was a drug addict and high on god knows what drugs and ready to do anything for a bit of love. I think he opened the trunk for her. Oh and he abviously wasn't as high as she was, because according to her when she asked for more percs he told her no that she was already too high.

"it doesn't have to be someone they know well, but generally that is what they do".

Chilling ... absolutely chilling ...

Remind you of anyone in particular??? JMO

BBM

Actually...not at all.

MOO

ChaChaCha

04-13-2012, 10:33 PM

Among them, that in a desperate diary entry written shortly after Tori's death while she was in custody on another matter, she wrote, "I'm f------ getting bloodthirsty again"; that during a recent visit this year from her godmother, she told her she only felt sad about the killing because "it was a little kid" and that otherwise, she would do it again, and that she also told her a dark secret she'd kept for years — that as a youngster, there were a couple of small dogs around her neighbourhood and that she "microwaved one of them until it screamed."

Read more: Lack of Empathy
A 2009 article in Molecular Psychology points to a lack of empathy and remorse as a common trait among sociopaths. While a psychopath knows the difference between right and wrong, it makes no difference to him. If a child frequently hurts or bullies others, but displays no noticeable emotion when their victims express pain, they may have a glitch in the brain network connecting the orbitofrontal cortex and amygdala. This neurological trait has been noted in sociopaths and psychopaths, and may explain their inability to care about the harm they cause or the consequences of their actions. A lack of conscience and compassion are classic traits of a sociopath.

...I find my self back here again tonight and a great need to post ...been with this case from the beginning ...April 2009 ...l just read the post about how this has affected so many here others deeply ...and some reason : ( my reasons.....
1. for most a parent
2. teacher of primary chidren and cried when I heard tori's teacher recount her last day at school ...man that affected me as I know how close we become to our class.

3. watch her family video saw the love that surrounded Tori and her family

4. ...and in a few short hours that was cut off ...a normal day turned into a PROVINCIAL NIGHMARE ....how can we ever Take away that PAIN....answer never....but Rodney tried to soar forward ....to TRY ... help this horrble tragedy from ever affecting another family ...with his marthon ...trully courgeous

5. But hearing the testimaony knaws at me ....& read posts of a sociopath...so much many bells rang IMO ...all that manupulation and lies

6. I trully pray that the jury comes to a logical verdict ....IMO ...this is scary that people wonder our streets & endanger our children ....I signed the Tori Law to help in the cause ....every spring it is very scary how many letters we used to hand out to children to WARN Parents of suscipious cars lurking around our schools ....Please join me in praying JUSTICE is seen as I never remember such a horrendous crime in Ontario .....I know a few people from Woodstock and how this tore at them all ....thanks for all the support here...kind of upset to say the least...robynhood

Macright

04-13-2012, 10:35 PM

I don't think she did either.:moo: The parade of ladies on the witness stand just shows even more how he manipulated and used women. She just got totally sucked in, she thought he was a good catch. And I also think he was gearing up for something else, it looks like he was really ramping up his POF dating, I wouldn't be surprised if had he not been caught one of the women from POF would have been next. MOO

I fail to see how the parade of ladies on the witness stand today show us how MR manipulated and used women...they put themselves out there for the taking by joining the same dating site...none of the affairs lasted that long and if what has been posted today by some on this site, most dropped him like a hot cake for whatever reasons... it takes two to consent to sex after one date or two...most probably saw through him and decided he wasn't much of a catch...this does not convinced me that he manipulated his dates... I feel sorry for that one female with two teenage children having to relate that they slept together after such a short time...:moo::moo:

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 10:36 PM

Read more: Lack of Empathy
A 2009 article in Molecular Psychology points to a lack of empathy and remorse as a common trait among sociopaths. While a psychopath knows the difference between right and wrong, it makes no difference to him. If a child frequently hurts or bullies others, but displays no noticeable emotion when their victims express pain, they may have a glitch in the brain network connecting the orbitofrontal cortex and amygdala. This neurological trait has been noted in sociopaths and psychopaths, and may explain their inability to care about the harm they cause or the consequences of their actions. A lack of conscience and compassion are classic traits of a sociopath.
JMO

Do sociopaths normally confess to their murders? Or help police look for the bodies? I don't think so?

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 10:43 PM

The question of the evening is "Did TLM actually kill Tori"?

YES

She says so herself. If people want to believe her claims about MR raping, why not believe her claims of killing?

"it doesn't have to be someone they know well, but generally that is what they do".

Chilling ... absolutely chilling ...

Remind you of anyone in particular??? JMO

I don't believe anyone is portraying TLM as a innocent here, just the opposite. We just believe he was despicable too. JMO

ChaChaCha

04-13-2012, 10:47 PM

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. (YUP!)
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. (HMMMMM)
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. (I think I need a hammer)
D. Repeated assaults on others. (YUP!)
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. (YUP)
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. (YUP!)
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. (YUP!)

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Check, check, check ...

If it walks like duck, quacks like a duck .... then....

JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 10:47 PM

I fail to see how the parade of ladies on the witness stand today show us how MR manipulated and used women...they put themselves out there for the taking by joining the same dating site...none of the affairs lasted that long and if what has been posted today by some on this site, most dropped him like a hot cake for whatever reasons... it takes two to consent to sex after one date or two...most probably saw through him and decided he wasn't much of a catch...this does not convinced me that he manipulated his dates... I feel sorry for that one female with two teenage children having to relate that they slept together after such a short time...:moo::moo:

In a way you're right, I mean they did put themselves out there, but I don't think they deserved to be lied to with all those stories he was coming up with, even on his profile he lied to make himself look better, so those women believed what they read. Once they found out what a creep he was they dropped him. But it also shows the kind of characgter he has. Gosh even TLM didn't call him back the first time they met and he showed up at her door asking why he hadn't called her.

Kamille

04-13-2012, 10:48 PM

Do sociopaths normally confess to their murders? Or help police look for the bodies? I don't think so?

I believe they're also usually charming and very deceptive about who they really are. That's how they con people. People would never expect them to be violent or criminal in nature. I wouldn't say that about TLM at all. If she had a problem with you, you can bet she'd let you know about it. I don't think she had lots of friends because of her charming personality.

MOO

tmhco

04-13-2012, 10:49 PM

I fail to see how the parade of ladies on the witness stand today show us how MR manipulated and used women...they put themselves out there for the taking by joining the same dating site...none of the affairs lasted that long and if what has been posted today by some on this site, most dropped him like a hot cake for whatever reasons... it takes two to consent to sex after one date or two...most probably saw through him and decided he wasn't much of a catch...this does not convinced me that he manipulated his dates... I feel sorry for that one female with two teenage children having to relate that they slept together after such a short time...:moo::moo:

He misrepresented himself to all of them. I would call that a form of manipulation JMO

Kamille

04-13-2012, 10:51 PM

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. (YUP!)
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. (HMMMMM)
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. (I think I need a hammer)
D. Repeated assaults on others. (YUP!)
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. (YUP)
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. (YUP!)
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. (YUP!)

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Check, check, check ...

If it walks like duck, quacks like a duck .... then....

JMO

Check on all of the above for MR. I guess he's a duck?

MOO

ChaChaCha

04-13-2012, 10:51 PM

The question of the evening is "Did TLM actually kill Tori"?

YES

She says so herself. If people want to believe her claims about MR raping, why not believe her claims of killing?

a story told consistently over time is more likely to be true. However, “consistency is a quality just as agreeable to lies as to the truth”.[14]
↑ R. v. L.(D.O.) 1991 CanLII 2714 (MB CA), (1991), 6 C.R. (4th) 277 at 309 (Man. C.A.), rev’d 1993 CanLII 46 (SCC), (1993), 25 C.R. (4th) 285 (S.C.C.)

And therein lies the problem ... anyone can cherry pick what parts of her testimony they choose to believe in order to bolster their own theory/belief.

IMO the whole truth hasn't come out yet - maybe it never will - but I believe that TLM is very disturbed and has done some cherry picking of her own when reciting her testimony.

JMO of course!

Kamille

04-13-2012, 10:53 PM

The question of the evening is "Did TLM actually kill Tori"?

YES

She says so herself. If people want to believe her claims about MR raping, why not believe her claims of killing?

I believe she killed Victoria and that he handed her the garbage bags and hammer to do so.

MOO

Macright

04-13-2012, 10:58 PM

In a way you're right, I mean they did put themselves out there, but I don't think they deserved to be lied to with all those stories he was coming up with, even on his profile he lied to make himself look better, so those women believed what they read. Once they found out what a creep he was they dropped him. But it also shows the kind of characgter he has. Gosh even TLM didn't call him back the first time they met and he showed up at her door asking why he hadn't called her.

most people that join those dating sites are not always truthful about themselves...some even use another photo and I am sure many, like the calibre of MR embellish their profile...he had nothing of value to add to his profile so he lied...it didn't take too long for most of those women to find him out and move on to another...the jobs he listed that he worked at are only menial jobs...he didn't try to pass himself off as a rocket scientist etc... nothing that those women said today would lead me to believe that this guy was capable of murder (IF THAT WAS ALL I HAD HEARD TO DATE) ....I would need more info than that....:moo::moo:

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:02 PM

I believe she killed Victoria and that he handed her the garbage bags and hammer to do so.

MOO

An even more radical thinker might say he shat his pants at what SHE had done. And she immediately started saying why he had better help her do what she says OR ELSE. A good imagination could think of all kinds of things she could hold over his head. (excluding her rape story) JMO

Kamille

04-13-2012, 11:10 PM

An even more radical thinker might say he shat his pants at what SHE had done. And she immediately started saying why he had better help her do what she says OR ELSE. A good imagination could think of all kinds of things she could hold over his head. (excluding her rape story)

Or... a logical thinker, after what we heard today, could perceive MR as the sociopath and TLM and ultimately Victoria as his unwitting victims.

MOO

Macright

04-13-2012, 11:10 PM

He misrepresented himself to all of them. I would call that a form of manipulation JMO

I would call that someone who was a failure, no education, no job...no money etc. etc. etc. in other words a bum..who thought he could fly by with his so called "good looks":floorlaugh: trying to impress a woman...obviously it worked for a short time with some...some even slept with him...but I guess when they found out he had no $$$$ and no real job they moved on....to another:moo::moo: I doubt that MR even has a double digit IQ..he strikes me as someone who would be in a remedial class at school...:moo::moo:

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:15 PM

Just not buying the sociopath thing from listening to the plethora of women he connected with. None of them spoke in derogatory terms or from fear from being with him. I didn't catch that they felt they were with a sociopath.

They seemed to testify in a factual, event listing, common place way. JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 11:15 PM

I would call that someone who was a failure, no education, no job...no money etc. etc. etc. in other words a bum..who thought he could fly by with his so called "good looks":floorlaugh: trying to impress a woman...obviously it worked for a short time with some...some even slept with him...but I guess when they found out he had no $$$$ and no real job they moved on....to another:moo::moo: I doubt that MR even has a double digit IQ..he strikes me as someone who would be in a remedial class at school...:moo::moo:

I think you might be right about that! But it doesn't make him any less capable of manipulating a drug addict who talks about murder into killing a little girl he intends to rape.

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:24 PM

intent to rape ...

Interesting that I know of a situation where a man was arrested with what one might call a torture/rape kit in his car (duct tape, handcuffs, rope, camping knife, pornographic material, women's lingerie, just to mention a few items). He was attempting to lure young girls into his car. This was not his first arrest with sure gear either.

THAT sounded like intent to rape and worse to me. It's all perception and what we read into things I guess? JMO

Ardy

04-13-2012, 11:26 PM

Anyone else wonder why MR's drug dealer in Guelph described him as broken out in cold sores and a nervous wreck........and none of the women he dated after the abduction mentioned anything about it?

JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 11:28 PM

intent to rape ...

Interesting that I know of a situation where a man was arrested with what one might call a torture/rape kit in his car (duct tape, handcuffs, rope, camping knife, pornographic material, women's lingerie, just to mention a few items). He was attempting to lure young girls into his car. This was not his first arrest with sure gear either.

THAT sounded like intent to rape and worse to me. It's all perception and what we read into things I guess?

I think you missed the point of my post.

brighidin

04-13-2012, 11:30 PM

When Cindy described all the dead pets and how they were buried in the backyard throughout the years, I almost vomited. It was bad enough hearing that Casey was a part of the dead animals preparation process for burial and that she attended their burials as early as the impressionable age of four, I really wondered what went on in that household. Are the dead animals part of their family secrets?

Sociopaths begin their sociopathic lives early on. They usually torture and kill animals from a very young age, They get a thrill from this and like a vampire who needs blood to sustain their life, a sociopath has needs to kill and to keep killing, They get a sadistic thrill out of it.

TLM is a sociopath ... it starts with the animals ... work their way up to larger targets ... like a child ...

JMO

Its not sociopaths who torture animals. That is a characteristic of psychopaths. Both of which, interestingly, are subsets of antisocial personality disorder.

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:32 PM

Anyone else wonder why MR's drug dealer in Guelph described him as broken out in cold sores and a nervous wreck........and none of the women he dated after the abduction mentioned anything about it?

JMO

That's a really good question, I had not thought about. You'd think he would shy away from first time dates from an online service if had cold sores, etc.

<modsnip> JMO

tmhco

04-13-2012, 11:32 PM

I would call that someone who was a failure, no education, no job...no money etc. etc. etc. in other words a bum..who thought he could fly by with his so called "good looks":floorlaugh: trying to impress a woman...obviously it worked for a short time with some...some even slept with him...but I guess when they found out he had no $$$$ and no real job they moved on....to another:moo::moo: I doubt that MR even has a double digit IQ..he strikes me as someone who would be in a remedial class at school...:moo::moo:

Do you find it strange that he kept coming up with different stories about himself? If I were going to embellish my job, i would at lease use the same one! I think he bent to story to fit his victim, i mean date. JMO

Kamille

04-13-2012, 11:34 PM

Anyone else wonder why MR's drug dealer in Guelph described him as broken out in cold sores and a nervous wreck........and none of the women he dated after the abduction mentioned anything about it?

JMO

Maybe she lied to make it seem like MR had a conscience about what he did. But apparently he didn't because he was making dates for breakfast the very next day.

MOO

brighidin

04-13-2012, 11:41 PM

Come to think of it wasn't that photo of him at the mystery theatre with his MY NAME IS MYCHOL name tag in that time frame? His face looked clear to me.

Has that been established? I thought people were just assuming that. I must have missed the link. Do you have it? Thanks.

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 11:41 PM

Anyone else wonder why MR's drug dealer in Guelph described him as broken out in cold sores and a nervous wreck........and none of the women he dated after the abduction mentioned anything about it?

JMO

Maybe she lied to make it seem like MR had a conscience about what he did. But apparently he didn't because he was making dates for breakfast the very next day.

MOO

Or maybe they didn't mention it because they weren't asked when they testified.

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:41 PM

Oh I would hate to think another witness lied on the stand. The jurors have such a tough task determining the truth. JMO

Jezbel

04-13-2012, 11:44 PM

I don't think she did it. JMO

Because I don't know how to cl's a quote over from a previous thread on tapatalk, I will quote yours matou.

I believe she confessed she was the murderer before the fight which happened jan 30, and her confession was on jan 13.

I do wonder why she changed her story on that and I'm not sure which version I believe :s

Kamille

04-13-2012, 11:45 PM

Or maybe they didn't mention it because they weren't asked when they testified.

True, plus they didn't even know him so how would they know what was nervous behaviour? And I only recall the witness stating that he had one cold sore when she saw him. Lots of people get cold sores and no one would think anything of it.

If he was nervous after the crime, it was only because he didn't want to get caught. Not because he had any remorse about what he had done.

MOO

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 11:46 PM

Oh I would hate to think another witness lied on the stand. The jurors have such a tough task determining the truth.

I don't think she lied. The other girls were not asked that question by the lawyer, so it's of little value to think about that now IMO :)

Tahorn

04-13-2012, 11:46 PM

He misrepresented himself to all of them. I would call that a form of manipulation JMO

Bahahahahah aaaah ba hahahahah
If I remember correctly that was called dating ...

Hello_Kitty

04-13-2012, 11:46 PM

True, plus they didn't even know him so how would they know what was nervous behaviour? And I only recall the witness stating that he had one cold sore when she saw him. Lots of people get cold sores and no one would think anything of it.

If he was nervous after the crime, it was only because he didn't want to get caught. Not because he had any remorse about what he had done.

Did the woman that was his date to this mystery theatre not just testify yesterday? Was that not within the time frame BA said he was full of cold sores and a nervous wreck? JMO

Kamille

04-13-2012, 11:51 PM

Bahahahahah aaaah ba hahahahah
If I remember correctly that was called dating ...

Did you often tell your dates your step child died, you had colon cancer, you bought your sick mother a house...etc etc, when none of it was true? :waitasec:

IMO that's a whole new level of "misrepresentation" when dating.

MOO

Macright

04-13-2012, 11:54 PM

Bahahahahah aaaah ba hahahahah
If I remember correctly that was called dating ...

:floorlaugh: now that is funny.....:floorlaugh:

kmclaren

04-13-2012, 11:55 PM

Oh I would hate to think another witness lied on the stand. The jurors have such a tough task determining the truth.

Which witness are you talking about that has lied? Or are you talking in general terms?

OhSoCurious

04-13-2012, 11:56 PM

So funny I also found a bunch of co-workers wearing the same name tags, from the same mystery theatre. Scroll down to see ...

http://dentistryonyorkville.com/blog/

Macright

04-13-2012, 11:58 PM

Did you often tell your dates your step child died, you had colon cancer, you bought your sick mother a house...etc etc, when none of it was true? :waitasec:

IMO that's a whole new level of "misrepresentation" when dating.

MOO

anything for a "piece" I guess....I don't call that misrepresentation...that's too big of a word for MR to know..... I would call that just plain lies to suit the situation....who knows...maybe he was constipated a lot and thought he had something major wrong with him.... still doesn't make him a murderer or rapist...I need more than that to convince me...:moo:

BorgQueen

04-13-2012, 11:58 PM

Bahahahahah aaaah ba hahahahah
If I remember correctly that was called dating ...

Misrepresenting yourself is 'dating'? I always thought dating was 'getting to know each other', not 'lying to somebody to make yourself appear better than you are so they will like you'. Eep. I've been doing it wrong! ;)

I don't know... if I was dating somebody, and found out that they were lying about their jobs, their friends, etc, that would raise some major red flags to me. If they can lie about something so simple like what they do for a living, what else are they lying about? Starting a 'relationship', even a casual one, with lies is NOT a good way to start! :moo:

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 12:00 AM

Did you often tell your dates your step child died, you had colon cancer, you bought your sick mother a house...etc etc, when none of it was true? :waitasec:

IMO that's a whole new level of "misrepresentation" when dating.

MOO

No ... But I had a guy tell me once that his mother had cancer and was sleeping in his living room and didn't want to wake her so could he stay on my couch for the night. I said HELL NO ... Why was he asking women he meet at local coffee shops out when his mom is dying...

OhSoCurious

04-14-2012, 12:01 AM

Which witness are you talking about that has lied? Or are you talking in general terms?

The very fact that people are questioning whether or not TLM killed Tori might infer lying. Yes? It is my heart felt intuition that leads me to believe there has been another female testifying to less than truths. It may be against board policy to post names? So yes, I go with "in general terms". What you said. JMO

Macright

04-14-2012, 12:02 AM

So funny I also found a bunch of co-workers wearing the same name tags, from the same mystery theatre. Scroll down to see ...

http://dentistryonyorkville.com/blog/

thanks...interesting...love those mystery theatre shows.....

brighidin

04-14-2012, 12:04 AM

That's a really good question, I had not thought about. You'd think he would shy away from first time dates from an online service if had cold sores, etc.

Come to think of it wasn't that photo of him at the mystery theatre with his MY NAME IS MYCHOL name tag in that time frame? His face looked clear to me.

So funny I also found a bunch of co-workers wearing the same name tags, from the same mystery theatre. Scroll down to see ...

http://dentistryonyorkville.com/blog/

You stated that the Mysteriously Yours photo was taken in the same time frame as BA said he had a cold sore. neither of the links you have provided backs up that statement. One is a picture of MR (that could have been taken at anytime. Maybe he was a mysteriously yours junkie) and the other is...completely unrelated. Thanks though.

Ardy

04-14-2012, 12:12 AM

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

OhSoCurious

04-14-2012, 12:13 AM

You stated that the Mysteriously Yours photo was taken in the same time frame as BA said he had a cold sore. neither of the links you have provided backs up that statement. One is a picture of MR (that could have been taken at anytime. Maybe he was a mysteriously yours junkie) and the other is...completely unrelated. Thanks though.

Perhaps ... but I don't think so. It's all related. JMO

OhSoCurious

04-14-2012, 12:16 AM

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

:rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker: too funny

Alethea Dice

04-14-2012, 12:18 AM

You stated that the Mysteriously Yours photo was taken in the same time frame as BA said he had a cold sore. neither of the links you have provided backs up that statement. One is a picture of MR (that could have been taken at anytime. Maybe he was a mysteriously yours junkie) and the other is...completely unrelated. Thanks though.

I believe this was a question, not a statement. JMO

Come to think of it wasn't that photo of him at the mystery theatre with his MY NAME IS MYCHOL name tag in that time frame? His face looked clear to me. JMO

Macright

04-14-2012, 12:20 AM

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::f loorlaugh:

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 12:26 AM

Misrepresenting yourself is 'dating'? I always thought dating was 'getting to know each other', not 'lying to somebody to make yourself appear better than you are so they will like you'. Eep. I've been doing it wrong! ;)

I don't know... if I was dating somebody, and found out that they were lying about their jobs, their friends, etc, that would raise some major red flags to me. If they can lie about something so simple like what they do for a living, what else are they lying about? Starting a 'relationship', even a casual one, with lies is NOT a good way to start! :moo:

Without bad dates there would not be any good sitcoms ...

Wondergirl

04-14-2012, 12:28 AM

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. (YUP!)
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. (HMMMMM)
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. (I think I need a hammer)
D. Repeated assaults on others. (YUP!)
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. (YUP)
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. (YUP!)
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. (YUP!)

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Check, check, check ...

If it walks like duck, quacks like a duck .... then....

JMO

Exactly!

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 12:30 AM

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

Leaving out details, such as a fondness for pickled eggs isn't lying. Not every detail of a persons life needs to be revealed right away.

If you met somebody who's profile stated that they're young, athletic with a good build, great hair, high income, would rather go play sport than watch television, hates beer, ambitious, and HATES pickled eggs with a passion... then later find out that none of this is true... would you even want to continue? Or would you be unable to trust them?
:moo:

To me, there is a BIG difference between selling yourself when dating, bringing forth your positive qualities while leaving out the less-than-attractive qualities, and telling people you're a dance-instructing, construction-working, youth service worker with colon cancer, a dead stepson, and a sick mother... but maybe that is just me? :moo:

Alethea Dice

04-14-2012, 12:43 AM

My understandinng of the two blond hairs is that there wasn't enough mitochondrial DNA available from either strand to make an identification of the source.
Originally Posted by ChaChaCha and respectfully snipped.

I don't know how to quote/reply from a previous thread, but it appears many are under the impression that neither strand of hair on the coat was able to be identified. One of the hairs was found to have female DNA, but both Tori and TLM were excluded.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply
Derstine reminded by McLean about blonde hairs on the coat. She said one of the hairs excluded Tori's DNA. The other undetermined.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply
Derstine asked about blond hairs on pea coat. McLean repeats that Stafford was excluded from one of the hairs from coat that was tested

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. (YUP!)
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. (HMMMMM)
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. (I think I need a hammer)
D. Repeated assaults on others. (YUP!)
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. (YUP)
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. (YUP!)
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. (YUP!)

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Check, check, check ...

If it walks like duck, quacks like a duck .... then....

JMO

RBBM - ummmmm, so are we talking about MR here or what? He can't hold a real job so he makes them up, he lies about himself and other things, he dates numerous women, conning them and telling them quite the variety of stories - none of which appear to be true.

He paints the inside of his car in the most awful way - for what???? That is weird, in my opinion, solidly weird :what:

He uses aliases and fancy spelling of his name to match his high esteem of himself.

He rationalizes the pain he inflicts on others by saying he didn't know what was going on? Or they need a little bit of love? Or Tori is fine and she will be home soon?

As for the hammer - it appears to me MR had that pretty well planned out. I wouldn't call him impulsive - I think he plans and schemes well in advance of his actions.

Salem

ChaChaCha

04-14-2012, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by ChaChaCha and respectfully snipped.

I don't know how to quote/reply from a previous thread, but it appears many are under the impression that neither strand of hair on the coat was able to be identified. One of the hairs was found to have female DNA, but both Tori and TLM were excluded.

Thank you Althea .... you are correct and I should have been clearer in my post.

brighidin

04-14-2012, 01:15 AM

Perhaps ... but I don't think so. It's all related. JMO

You think the people at yorkville dentistry are related to this? Um. Wow. You go with that then.

I believe this was a question, not a statement. JMO

I'm aware that it was a question of sorts. If you read my original post on the matter, you will see that I asked for a link that might verify it. It wasn't a facetious request: I can't read every single post and tweet, and could very well have missed something so I asked. They replied with a picture of MR and a dentistry blog. Hence my reply, which you quoted.

There is nothing wrong with asking for a link. Thanks for trying to help though.
moo

swedie

04-14-2012, 02:39 AM

...I find my self back here again tonight and a great need to post ...been with this case from the beginning ...April 2009 ...l just read the post about how this has affected so many here others deeply ...and some reason : ( my reasons.....
1. for most a parent
2. teacher of primary chidren and cried when I heard tori's teacher recount her last day at school ...man that affected me as I know how close we become to our class.

3. watch her family video saw the love that surrounded Tori and her family

4. ...and in a few short hours that was cut off ...a normal day turned into a PROVINCIAL NIGHMARE ....how can we ever Take away that PAIN....answer never....but Rodney tried to soar forward ....to TRY ... help this horrble tragedy from ever affecting another family ...with his marthon ...trully courgeous

5. But hearing the testimaony knaws at me ....& read posts of a sociopath...so much many bells rang IMO ...all that manupulation and lies

6. I trully pray that the jury comes to a logical verdict ....IMO ...this is scary that people wonder our streets & endanger our children ....I signed the Tori Law to help in the cause ....every spring it is very scary how many letters we used to hand out to children to WARN Parents of suscipious cars lurking around our schools ....Please join me in praying JUSTICE is seen as I never remember such a horrendous crime in Ontario .....I know a few people from Woodstock and how this tore at them all ....thanks for all the support here...kind of upset to say the least...robynhood

Bless your heart Robynhood. :blowkiss: I can fully understand where you are coming from being a teacher and the children you deal on a daily basis. Teachers spend more time with students then some parents spend with their own children. Some times it just happens that way due to parents working or for whatever reason. Some teachers really make huge positive impacts on some children. Thank you for being one of those teachers. I am sure you are appreciated by so many parents and students. Maybe you don't hear many thanks but just know in your heart you are appreciated by many. Like the old saying goes, "it's a thankless job but somebody has got to do it". Keep up the great work. :moo::seeya:

swedie

04-14-2012, 02:47 AM

I wonder if we'll be hearing any more information about MR's childhood? Considering he was living with an aunt and uncle in Drayton I'd say something was up. JMO

Wonder if the aunt or uncle will be called upon? :waitasec:

swedie

04-14-2012, 02:51 AM

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest. (YUP!)
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases. (HMMMMM)
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive. (I think I need a hammer)
D. Repeated assaults on others. (YUP!)
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety. (YUP)
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations. (YUP!)
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others. (YUP!)

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Check, check, check ...

If it walks like duck, quacks like a duck .... then....

JMO

Very fitting for both MR and TLM. :moo:

swedie

04-14-2012, 03:34 AM

I believe she killed Victoria and that he handed her the garbage bags and hammer to do so.

MOO

I totally agree Kamille. Did MR not say something to the effect that it was her turn, meaning for her to go into HD? I bet after he raped Tori and threw her to the ground, he called TLM over from her spot where she was taking in her surroundings, after he put the garbage bag over her head or took the stuff out for TLM and handed TLM the hammer saying "your turn". JMHO but that's how I feel it all played out. MR knew TLM would do it. He did tell her that they were in this together. AND he knew exactly what was going to happen in the end that's why he said "we can't keep her and we can't take her back". Master planner and manipulator. :moo:

Tori asked a number of times where they were headed. McClintic told her they were "going for a drive," though she testified that she, too, did not know where they were going.

They then travelled to the home of one of Rafferty’s friends, McClintic testified, before driving to a Home Depot at the north end of the city.

McClintic said she went into the store to purchase a hammer and garbage bags, because she had been "instructed" to do so by Rafferty.

McClintic said they then headed out of the city and into a rural area. She testified that Rafferty began masturbating as they turned down a laneway.

They eventually stopped but McClintic left the vehicle because she knew what was going to happen.

"I believed he was going to rape Tori," McClintic said Tuesday.

McClintic said she turned away and heard screaming.

She said she did not watch what was happening though she heard much of what was going on.

I think you might be right about that! But it doesn't make him any less capable of manipulating a drug addict who talks about murder into killing a little girl he intends to rape.

Speaking of drug addict. MR wasn't new to oxys according to the one woman who dated him and said they were inseparable. She said he was taking oxys then 2005-2007 IIRC. BA said she had been supplying MR for about a year or so...:waitasec: I would love to know where he got all his money for drugs, clothing, gas, insurance on his car, paying for dates (then again probably dutch treat or he let the ladies foot the bill). Oh yes he did mooch off mommy and couch surfed between girls or friends. Drug dealing? I now recall a couple of reports where he told people he had a bad back. Colon cancer? CCP disability? Where is that lie list. :waitasec: :moo:

By the way Snoof and Sailor Bug that's terrific you started a MR lie list. I see it's pretty big for just starting it. :blowkiss: Anyone found more lies for TLM's list?

Salem

04-14-2012, 04:01 AM

WARNING: There is to be no discussion of innocent minors. Right now the only info on a step son is what the girlfriend said - and there is nothing in the testimony that indicates it is true.

Until something comes out in the MSM or the trial, the discussion is off the table.

Thanks everybody,

Salem

swedie

04-14-2012, 04:06 AM

That's a really good question, I had not thought about. You'd think he would shy away from first time dates from an online service if had cold sores, etc.

<modsnip> JMO

I don't think a cold sore would stop a sexual deviant. Also that may have been one of the many reasons women gave him the brush off. I remember one woman saying she couldn't wait for the date to end. HTH and :moo:

Rafferty refused to look at one woman, SC, 29, of Kitchener, as she described an April 19 date that she said she “just wanted to be over.”

8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Y worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.

9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car.

10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.

11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.

12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.

13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.

14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.

15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.

16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.

17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.

Again, thank you Latole for your help on this list. :blowkiss:

:crazy: :hot: :okay:

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 06:05 AM

Women MR was involved with from 2005 to May 19, 2009, the day of his arrest

8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Y worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.

9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car.

10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.

11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.

12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.

13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.

14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.

15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.

16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.

17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.

Again, thank you Latole for your help on this list. :blowkiss:

:crazy: :hot: :okay:

RD.. MR dated her when she was 17. He would have been in his 20s. Um... so he was driving around back roads, going to secluded areas, getting out of the car and having sex with a minor...

On the opposite end of the age spectrum, he was dating (and I assume sleeping with) women who were significantly older than him.

He didn't discriminate much, did he? :moo:

tmhco

04-14-2012, 07:07 AM

Bahahahahah aaaah ba hahahahah
If I remember correctly that was called dating ...

The point I was trying to make is MR is NOT an "innocent dupe". He seemed to be perfectly capable of manipulation, whatever the reason. JMO

snoofer

04-14-2012, 08:06 AM

An even more radical thinker might say he shat his pants at what SHE had done. And she immediately started saying why he had better help her do what she says OR ELSE. A good imagination could think of all kinds of things she could hold over his head. (excluding her rape story) JMO

imagination does not equal reasonable doubt. :beamup:
JMO

snoofer

04-14-2012, 08:16 AM

Wonder if the aunt or uncle will be called upon? :waitasec:

in the beginning the family were supportive of him; wonder if they still are. Either way this has to be extremely difficult for them all. JMO

snoofer

04-14-2012, 08:26 AM

anything for a "piece" I guess....I don't call that misrepresentation...that's too big of a word for MR to know..... I would call that just plain lies to suit the situation....who knows...maybe he was constipated a lot and thought he had something major wrong with him.... still doesn't make him a murderer or rapist...I need more than that to convince me...:moo:

the measure of a good man is not in what they say; but in what they DO on a consistent basis.:moo:

MTR = :nuts:

snoofer

04-14-2012, 08:28 AM

People lie all the time. They lie about everything.

Politicians lie before they get elected...........just to get elected.

How many people have ever told someone their newborn baby is butt ugly?

Teenagers lie all the time...........it's normal.

If you look at the profiles on the dating sites, I guarantee you won't see too many that say.............

Older guy, balding, good sized pot belly, average income enjoys watching television, drinking beer, no long term ambitions, but a special fondness for pickled eggs.

JMO

:eek: well now

matou

04-14-2012, 08:56 AM

Speaking of drug addict. MR wasn't new to oxys according to the one woman who dated him and said they were inseparable. She said he was taking oxys then 2005-2007 IIRC. BA said she had been supplying MR for about a year or so...:waitasec: I would love to know where he got all his money for drugs, clothing, gas, insurance on his car, paying for dates (then again probably dutch treat or he let the ladies foot the bill). Oh yes he did mooch off mommy and couch surfed between girls or friends. Drug dealing? I now recall a couple of reports where he told people he had a bad back. Colon cancer? CCP disability? Where is that lie list. :waitasec: :moo:

By the way Snoof and Sailor Bug that's terrific you started a MR lie list. I see it's pretty big for just starting it. :blowkiss: Anyone found more lies for TLM's list?

Well one girlfriend has stated that money went missing from her account in 2006.

Another former girlfriend described Rafferty as having aggressive sexual interests and a secretive personality.
"He never had any money and I would always pay for things," said Jennifer Etsell, a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive.
"I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships."
His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html

maxfactor

04-14-2012, 09:11 AM

So funny I also found a bunch of co-workers wearing the same name tags, from the same mystery theatre. Scroll down to see ...

http://dentistryonyorkville.com/blog/

I think that particular picture of him was shown to the jury because of "Mychol", I think in the coming days it will become apparent why LE thought that was important.:moo:

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 09:32 AM

I am curious about how to pick and choose what to believe from both MR and TLM. If both are being called liars, why believe either, including him when he allegedly said to one woman that he had been in trouble a lot as a kid? MR's lies have been laid out over the last while.

All we have so far, and yes I know that doesn't mean he just wasn't caught for things he had done, or sealed due to age: "Under cross-examination, Darmon said Rafferty had no criminal record when his name was brought to the attention of the police around the time of Tori's disappearance."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html

I saw earlier discussions about violence, revenge, and rape.

We don't know about MR. But what we have read aboUt TLM:

"Before Derstine ended his cross-examination of McClintic, jurors heard about another incident from her troubled past: As a child she put a dog in a microwave, but made up a story that the animal had been injured by another neighbourhood dog and had to be put down.

People accepted the story because no one could believe that McClintic "could be so cruel to such an innocent," Derstine said."

"On Thursday, Rafferty’s defence lawyer, Dirk Derstine read out passages from McClintic’s journal where she described herself as a “cold-blooded killer.” In one entry, she fantasized about cleaning up a murder scene and being able to smile the next day. In another, she talked in graphic detail about torture and raping people with rusty knives and razor blades."

"On Wednesday, McClintic was grilled about several graphic letters she had written to a friend between 2007 and 2008 in which she described herself as a gangster who wanted to torture and physically harm those who have wronged her."

In one reference, she talked about being a "vampire in heat" who had dreamt of "slaughtering someone, ripping someone" out bone by bone.

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could "smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle."

Rafferty's defence lawyer Dirk Derstine pointedly questioned McClintic on whether she sought to hurt those who did her wrong, or as the letters suggested, hurt others connected to these people.

"I would agree that I had anger issues and I did seek out to hurt those . . . as I had seen it, hurt or anger me in some form or another," she replied

While in youth custody, McClintic told the court she took prescription drugs including Prozac and often got into scraps with other inmates. One time, she hurt her hand while punching into a wall.

In one of the letters, she had talked about shooting a pregnant inmate in the face. In another, she said she wanted to "take out" another inmate's whole family when she got out of the youth detention centre.

"I may have meant at that time what I was saying," she testified. "I was younger at the time and this was years ago."

The court also heard that McClintic had assaulted her mother on two separate occasions in the past.

This part I have thought about, and what she possibly may have really meant imo by the part that is bbm:

When Rafferty killed Tori, kicking her, stomping on her and hitting her in the head several times with a hammer, it seemed like "he knew what he was doing," McClintic tells Ontario Provincial Police Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth.

"I felt at the point of tears a lot, and I didn't want him to see that. I didn't want him to see any of that," she said.

Several parts of her story have always puzzled me, and frankly don't ring true to me. I don't have the exact wording here, maybe someone can help. Where she stated Tori needed to use the washroom so she went and got her from the car, held her hand and chatted and told her she was brave, and Tori said brave like her or something, and then went pee. She then walked her back to the car to be raped again. Somehow I don't believe this is possible. At all. JMO

Another would be where she allegedly saw Tori being assaulted in detail, and then all of a sudden little Tori was now out of the car and lying on the ground. I do believe where she stated she was in "a rage" prior to starting to attack Tori and that she "savagely murdered that little girl". JMO

The issue of her being too high, or high out of her mind etc. I don't believe for a minute that she would have many of the details and locations if she was out of her tree. JMO

JMO I also don't believe it was random. JMO

tmhco

04-14-2012, 10:41 AM

I am curious about how to pick and choose what to believe from both MR and TLM. If both are being called liars, why believe either, including him when he allegedly said to one woman that he had been in trouble a lot as a kid? MR's lies have been laid out over the last while.

All we have so far, and yes I know that doesn't mean he just wasn't caught for things he had done, or sealed due to age: "Under cross-examination, Darmon said Rafferty had no criminal record when his name was brought to the attention of the police around the time of Tori's disappearance."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/03/23/stafford-rafferty-trial-friday.html

I saw earlier discussions about violence, revenge, and rape.

We don't know about MR. But what we have read aboUt TLM:

"Before Derstine ended his cross-examination of McClintic, jurors heard about another incident from her troubled past: As a child she put a dog in a microwave, but made up a story that the animal had been injured by another neighbourhood dog and had to be put down.

People accepted the story because no one could believe that McClintic "could be so cruel to such an innocent," Derstine said."

"On Thursday, Rafferty’s defence lawyer, Dirk Derstine read out passages from McClintic’s journal where she described herself as a “cold-blooded killer.” In one entry, she fantasized about cleaning up a murder scene and being able to smile the next day. In another, she talked in graphic detail about torture and raping people with rusty knives and razor blades."

"On Wednesday, McClintic was grilled about several graphic letters she had written to a friend between 2007 and 2008 in which she described herself as a gangster who wanted to torture and physically harm those who have wronged her."

In one reference, she talked about being a "vampire in heat" who had dreamt of "slaughtering someone, ripping someone" out bone by bone.

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could "smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle."

Rafferty's defence lawyer Dirk Derstine pointedly questioned McClintic on whether she sought to hurt those who did her wrong, or as the letters suggested, hurt others connected to these people.

"I would agree that I had anger issues and I did seek out to hurt those . . . as I had seen it, hurt or anger me in some form or another," she replied

While in youth custody, McClintic told the court she took prescription drugs including Prozac and often got into scraps with other inmates. One time, she hurt her hand while punching into a wall.

In one of the letters, she had talked about shooting a pregnant inmate in the face. In another, she said she wanted to "take out" another inmate's whole family when she got out of the youth detention centre.

"I may have meant at that time what I was saying," she testified. "I was younger at the time and this was years ago."

The court also heard that McClintic had assaulted her mother on two separate occasions in the past.

This part I have thought about, and what she possibly may have really meant imo by the part that is bbm:

When Rafferty killed Tori, kicking her, stomping on her and hitting her in the head several times with a hammer, it seemed like "he knew what he was doing," McClintic tells Ontario Provincial Police Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth.

"I felt at the point of tears a lot, and I didn't want him to see that. I didn't want him to see any of that," she said.

Several parts of her story have always puzzled me, and frankly don't ring true to me. I don't have the exact wording here, maybe someone can help. Where she stated Tori needed to use the washroom so she went and got her from the car, held her hand and chatted and told her she was brave, and Tori said brave like her or something, and then went pee. She then walked her back to the car to be raped again. Somehow I don't believe this is possible. At all. JMO

Another would be where she allegedly saw Tori being assaulted in detail, and then all of a sudden little Tori was now out of the car and lying on the ground. I do believe where she stated she was in "a rage" prior to starting to attack Tori and that she "savagely murdered that little girl". JMO

The issue of her being too high, or high out of her mind etc. I don't believe for a minute that she would have many of the details and locations if she was out of her tree. JMO

JMO I also don't believe it was random. JMO

I have no idea if it was random or not. Both if them had ties to Tori. For myself, as the crown stated, so many of the details of the TLM version have been proven true.

I also am not buying the " innocent dupe" theory. The only motive for taking a young child to a a remote area (that HE was familiar with) is for sexual purposes. I see no other reasonable explanation. JMO

~n/t~

04-14-2012, 10:46 AM

Deep within the fabric of a gym bag found in his car, miniscule flakes of Michael Rafferty’s blood mingled with the blood flakes of Victoria Stafford

On the rubber moulding of the rear passenger side door, the eight-year-old girl left a 3 mm by 5 mm smear of blood.

On the back and side of the front passenger seat, Rafferty’s semen mixed with the blood of one of his girlfriends at the time, Terri-Lynne McClintic.

On the lower back of the driver’s seat, he left another tiny fragment of his semen.

Microscopic analysis provided astronomical odds — from one in 28 billion, to one in 150 trillion — that Rafferty, McClintic and Victoria left DNA evidence of their presence in Rafferty’s 2003 Honda Civic, a jury heard Wednesday.

But while science dominated Day 20 of Rafferty’s murder trial, it ended with a sudden moment of drama when a former childhood friend, who became a girlfriend, testified.

Alexis Lane, 30, testified she knew Rafferty in their small town of Drayton, near Mount Forest, Ont., from Grade 6 on, and went out with him from Feb. 22 to April 1, 2009.

That’s the same time period, Rafferty was going out with McClintic.

Lane’s testimony was brief, confirming that when she went out with Rafferty, his Honda Civic had a complete back seat.

All bolded by me as a reminder that not only do we have CE we have forensics in this case.

Well I don't know what we will hear from the defence. Much of the forensics imo will be discussed, the defence had strong points on that imo. They don't prove he raped or murdered Tori. He's guilty for sure, but it's not clear of exactly what at this point. Covering up the disgusting brutal murder and abandonning the beautiful innocent Tori in bags under a pile of rocks for sure. Torturing her big brother and her parents and family and friends who loved her and prayed and begged for her return. Horrific. They will never recover imo. Beyond that it has not been proven imo. I also don't feel regardless of the trial's outcome that there will be justice for Tori. That can never happen. There is no justice for what that angel went through imo.

Shasta

04-14-2012, 11:22 AM

swedie,

Here's a JE from Hanover for your MTR GF list.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 12:33 PM

I have no idea if it was random or not. Both if them had ties to Tori. For myself, as the crown stated, so many of the details of the TLM version have been proven true.

I also am not buying the " innocent dupe" theory. The only motive for taking a young child to a a remote area (that HE was familiar with) is for sexual purposes. I see no other reasonable explanation. JMO

JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

tmhco

04-14-2012, 12:42 PM

JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 12:45 PM

I fail to see how the parade of ladies on the witness stand today show us how MR manipulated and used women...they put themselves out there for the taking by joining the same dating site...none of the affairs lasted that long and if what has been posted today by some on this site, most dropped him like a hot cake for whatever reasons... it takes two to consent to sex after one date or two...most probably saw through him and decided he wasn't much of a catch...this does not convinced me that he manipulated his dates... I feel sorry for that one female with two teenage children having to relate that they slept together after such a short time...:moo::moo:

I respectfully disagree. He overlapped the relationships, lied to them about everything and dated a lot of these women days or during the time he had been "allegedly"--involved in Tori's abduction/murder. Can anyone add anything else to this?:what::twocents:

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 01:06 PM

RD.. MR dated her when she was 17. He would have been in his 20s. Um... so he was driving around back roads, going to secluded areas, getting out of the car and having sex with a minor...

On the opposite end of the age spectrum, he was dating (and I assume sleeping with) women who were significantly older than him.

He didn't discriminate much, did he? :moo:

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 01:13 PM

You stated that the Mysteriously Yours photo was taken in the same time frame as BA said he had a cold sore. neither of the links you have provided backs up that statement. One is a picture of MR (that could have been taken at anytime. Maybe he was a mysteriously yours junkie) and the other is...completely unrelated. Thanks though.

Yeah. Good line to describe MR, "mysteriously yours"--He might as well added, "everyting about me is a mystery and a lie!":floorlaugh: I can think of some pretty good <modsnipped> lines that would also do him justice--or sorry suit him. Justice is something I am anxiously awaiting for Tori!:moo:

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 01:18 PM

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

Antiquegirl, is there a characteristic/pattern with these women which you may have noticed by their appearance or actions in the court room. We can only go by the snippets of tweets that were posted. Did they make you see something in them that MTR might find appealing? I don't know if you are allowed to answer this question but it sure is thought provoking:moo:

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 01:28 PM

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

Well, given his propensity for lying, he'd no doubt lie about his version of events.... oh wait, he's already lied to his lawyers! JMO

daisy.faithfull

04-14-2012, 01:30 PM

I just caught up and I just want to comment on some of MTRs behavior that is quite telling to me.

I think that talking with others, especially someone who has a daughter that was a playmate of Tory's, is the absolute last thing someone who was forced to participate in the abduction would do.

If MTR was forced to help TLM cover up her crime you would think that he would be consumed with guilt. If that were the case you would think that he would go out of his way to avoid even thinking about what he had been apart of. But he didn't. He had one of her missing flyers in his home and he talked about the abduction with people.

And one more thing, if we are to believe the defence's alternate scenario, TLM would have been responsible for his involvement in it all, yet when he spoke of TLM he talked about wanting to help her. It doesn't fit.

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 01:39 PM

(RSBM)

Actually, they met when she was 17, but she testified that they didn't start going out until after her 18th birthday. I haven't yet read the Tweets, but LFP was mistaken. I was at the trial yesterday and took notes. HTH

But, I agree that he wasn't very discriminating in his choices - in either age or appearance (unless their appearances have changed drastically over the past three years). The 50 year-old mother of six threw me for a loop!

JMO

Oh, thank you. From what I have read, I was left with the impression that they met, and started dating, when she was 17. Which was probably done deliberately (you know how reporters can be... much more interesting to leave out the part where they started dating when she was no longer a minor... :eyeroll: ).

The 50 year old made me go :what: , too. What could a 50 year old woman possibly want from a then-28 year old boy (young man, but boy in comparison). She could be his mother! But, I guess if somebody was lonely enough to use POF to find a date, his age didn't matter. (And I am not trying to be judgemental by that statement. I have used POF, myself, until I was absolutely creeped out by most of the people who contacted me, including one that threatened to 'find' me after I didn't respond... promptly deleted my profile after that). In fact, I believe that is what he was looking for on POF. Extremely lonely, possibly desperate women... :moo:

Macright

04-14-2012, 01:39 PM

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..

brighidin

04-14-2012, 01:41 PM

MR went on a POF bender after the kidnapping. Maybe this was his version of "ugly coping" a la Casey Anthony.

matou

04-14-2012, 01:42 PM

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

brighidin

04-14-2012, 01:44 PM

Oh, thank you. From what I have read, I was left with the impression that they met, and started dating, when she was 17. Which was probably done deliberately (you know how reporters can be... much more interesting to leave out the part where they started dating when she was no longer a minor... :eyeroll: ).

The 50 year old made me go :what: , too. What could a 50 year old woman possibly want from a then-28 year old boy (young man, but boy in comparison). She could be his mother! But, I guess if somebody was lonely enough to use POF to find a date, his age didn't matter. (And I am not trying to be judgemental by that statement. I have used POF, myself, until I was absolutely creeped out by most of the people who contacted me, including one that threatened to 'find' me after I didn't respond... promptly deleted my profile after that). In fact, I believe that is what he was looking for on POF. Extremely lonely, possibly desperate women... :moo:

I just think that a 28 year old should never ever be referred to as a boy. Regardless of the age of the woman, he was/is still a grown man, not a child. Lots of older women date younger men!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with online dating. I have never tried it, and thanks to this case, I never will!

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 01:44 PM

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

You're right. Even people sitting on the fence seem to have their legs hanging over on one side or the other.

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 01:49 PM

Antiquegirl, is there a characteristic/pattern with these women which you may have noticed by their appearance or actions in the court room. We can only go by the snippets of tweets that were posted. Did they make you see something in them that MTR might find appealing? I don't know if you are allowed to answer this question but it sure is thought provoking:moo:

Physically - only that he seems to like women who wear glasses. Several, but not all, did, and I'm aware of another who also does. The brunettes were in the majority - of the seven women, only two were blondes (and probably not natural blondes from the looks of it). They ranged in height and weight. However, as I wrote, we don't know what they looked like 3+ years ago.

Their demeanor varied, too. A couple were very nervous about testifying and were obviously not used to speaking in front of a crowd. I didn't get the impression that it was because of MTR per se, but because they were in the spotlight and under oath.

SL, the real estate broker seemed confident and most relaxed. She was older than the others and I'm guessing she's more used to public speaking. The woman whose name is under a publication ban was the best-educated, most articulate and very well-prepared. No hemming and hawing, had all her dates and details ready and memorized. She is the one who had only a 15 minute coffee date with MTR and decided not to see him again. Most of these testimonies took just a few minutes, almost all were present only for the duration of it and left when they were finished. (Except for SL, who stayed to watch when she was done.) The longest testimony was from RB, the youngest, who knew MTR best, but hadn't seen him since 2008. She seemed shy, was quite lovely, and her parents were there for support. (At least, they seemed to be her parents.)

None of them were on the stand long enough, really, to judge other similarities or "type".

HTH & JMO

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 01:50 PM

I just think that a 28 year old should never ever be referred to as a boy. Regardless of the age of the woman, he was/is still a grown man, not a child. Lots of older women date younger men!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with online dating. I have never tried it, and thanks to this case, I never will!

You're right, a 28 year old is not a child. Didn't mean to imply that he is. Poor choice of words to demonstrate the extreme age gap. Yes, plenty of older women date younger men (and vice versa). That is an age gap that makes me, personally, feel slightly uncomfortable (and would if the genders were reversed).

And I definitely do not recommend online dating. When I was 14, met some guy from a chat room. Was lead to believe he was also a teenager. Turned out he was 48 and he tried to get me to pose nude for him to take photographs of me. I HAVE met some fantastic people online, but the creeps seem to outnumber them significantly.

Macright

04-14-2012, 01:57 PM

IMO, NO ONE is completely impartial about this case. JMO

I agree...some lean a little more to the left or the right...some become too personal and attached....:moo:

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 02:00 PM

I just caught up and I just want to comment on some of MTRs behavior that is quite telling to me.

I think that talking with others, especially someone who has a daughter that was a playmate of Tory's, is the absolute last thing someone who was forced to participate in the abduction would do.

If MTR was forced to help TLM cover up her crime you would think that he would be consumed with guilt. If that were the case you would think that he would go out of his way to avoid even thinking about what he had been apart of. But he didn't. He had one of her missing flyers in his home and he talked about the abduction with people.

And one more thing, if we are to believe the defence's alternate scenario, TLM would have been responsible for his involvement in it all, yet when he spoke of TLM he talked about wanting to help her. It doesn't fit.

This shows lack of remorse or feelings of guilt--even if he was an innocent bystander. So it shows he has it in him to do the deed.MOO:moo::moo:

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 02:01 PM

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..

I don't see why it wouldn't be okay to describe them to a certain extent. All but one of their names has been published by the media. I would think that a little Googling might bring up a picture or two. I don't know if media photographers have captured any of their images, but there was nothing stopping them from doing so. BA certainly didn't escape that bit of publicity, to her obvious distress.

My previous post describes them generally, only to show that they varied physically and in demeanor. None was on the stand very long, and all but one left after testifying. Most of them looked like very nice, "girl-next-door" types, if that's what people are wondering. Nothing flamboyant or over-the-top about any of them. Even the oldest one looked kind of ordinary ... but "well preserved", if I may say so. From the back, she could have passed for 20. ;)

JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 02:05 PM

You're right, a 28 year old is not a child. Didn't mean to imply that he is. Poor choice of words to demonstrate the extreme age gap. Yes, plenty of older women date younger men (and vice versa). That is an age gap that makes me, personally, feel slightly uncomfortable (and would if the genders were reversed).

And I definitely do not recommend online dating. When I was 14, met some guy from a chat room. Was lead to believe he was also a teenager. Turned out he was 48 and he tried to get me to pose nude for him to take photographs of me. I HAVE met some fantastic people online, but the creeps seem to outnumber them significantly.

BBM

I have been on the internet since 1994 when regular people barely knew about the internet and I have never had a profile on any of those dating sites nor did I have a facebook page until last year. I was always more intested in coding games so I hung out with people online who had similar interests/hobbies. I visited my online friends in England and Belgium on several occasions but that was after I knew them for years and I would trust any one of them with my life. I would never go meet someone I had just met online. It's just too dangerous(.).

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 02:11 PM

ah Antiquegirl..so nice to see you back posting...missed your sensible and impartial input on this case... I know you can't actually describe on this site, those women that took the stand yesterday but it is not too difficult to conjure up images...I guess they have had their fifteen minutes of fame... I see none of them as "victims"..just women putting themselves out there on a dating site...I guess you could say "ya takes your chances"..

The term COUGAR comes to mind.

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 02:16 PM

BBM

I have been on the internet since 1994 when regular people barely knew about the internet and I have never had a profile on any of those dating sites nor did I have a facebook page until last year. I was always more intested in coding games so I hung out with people online who had similar interests/hobbies. I visited my online friends in England and Belgium on several occasions but that was after I knew them for years and I would trust any one of them with my life. I would never go meet someone I had just met online. It's just too dangerous(.).

Oh, it definitely is. I am quite lucky to still be alive, really. It is not something I will ever do again (and I am not entirely sure why I went on POF as an adult after dealing with that guy when I was 14, only desperation can explain that one), and I would strongly discourage ANYBODY from doing. Most people don't listen to me, but the best I can do is try to help and protect people. Not everybody has been as lucky as I have been. Many people have not got out of it unharmed.
I think predators thrive on the anonymity of the internet, the naievity (sp?) of young people on the internet, and desperation and loneliness of women (often single mothers) on dating sites. The internet CAN be a wonderful, fun place with wonderful, kind people, but it can also be extremely dangerous. I have experienced both.

ChaChaCha

04-14-2012, 02:19 PM

I don't see why it wouldn't be okay to describe them to a certain extent. All but one of their names has been published by the media. I would think that a little Googling might bring up a picture or two. I don't know if media photographers have captured any of their images, but there was nothing stopping them from doing so. BA certainly didn't escape that bit of publicity, to her obvious distress.

My previous post describes them generally, only to show that they varied physically and in demeanor. None was on the stand very long, and all but one left after testifying. Most of them looked like very nice, "girl-next-door" types, if that's what people are wondering. Nothing flamboyant or over-the-top about any of them. Even the oldest one looked kind of ordinary ... but "well preserved", if I may say so. From the back, she could have passed for 20. ;)

JMO

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

gardenia

04-14-2012, 02:24 PM

thanks AG for your 'in the courtroom' observations. i too have missed your posts! glad to see you're back!

Ardy

04-14-2012, 02:30 PM

IMO.....JMO......MOO

This trial seems to have diverged onto two different paths.......from the point of abduction

The Crown assertions are that MR was not only a knowing participant, but he was directing TLM to enable his plans.

The defense (apparent) assertions are that TLM abducted VS without the knowledge of MR and their version of events happened from there.

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.

With that in mind, I am puzzled by several things.

The video of the abduction shows TLM leading VS away, allegedly without knowing who VS was. She is apparently unconcerned that she has to pass people standing on the sidewalk waiting for someone. We saw one person in the video, and there may have been others who were waiting in other locations or in their cars. TLM also would not know if VS was expecting someone to come for her but who had not arrived yet. If TLM didn't know who VS was.......she wouldn't know which person on the street or coming down the street would want to know why she was with their daughter.

I find TLM's statement that she introduced herself to VS by discussing her dog, exactly the same breed as owned by VS, as a pretty big coincidence. Of all the conversations in the world they could have had......it was about a dog of the breed that both of them had.

Even accepting that, I am not sure VS would walk away with her.........just because she had a similar dog. VS was expecting to walk with her brother and would have waited for his return, I would think.

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

So now.......TLM knew MR who knew both AC and JG. AC and JG knew both TM and VS.

The circle becomes even smaller when one considers that TLM lived with her mother CM who sold drugs to TM and JG.

My own conclusion is that it is far more likely that TLM knew of VS, than she didn't.

I would be wondering if MR was the one texting JG...........or JG was texting MR......or neither were texting each other.

I was disappointed the Crown didn't ask that question.

Basically, I am wondering why the Crown has chosen not to probe more deeply than they have, because their case is not a slam dunk by a long shot.

If the Crown had settled the abduction and drug debt issues at the start, their case would look a lot stronger now.

JMO

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 02:34 PM

The term COUGAR comes to mind.

Of the seven female witnesses yesterday, I would only classify one as a "cougar". The rest ranged in age from 23 to 33 years old. But that was just yesterday.

For the record, I am very close to two women who met men on an online dating site, albeit not POF. One has been very happily married to the guy for 3+ years and the other is set to marry hers in June. I also have an acquaintance who met his wife of 20+ years online. They were both pioneers to the internet technology, although I think their meeting was prior to dating sites.

I have met more than a dozen women (no men) in real life that I got to know online within the past 15 years. All have been positive, wonderful experiences and I'm still friends with all but one. I have actually visited three of them in different countries. In a lot of cases, you can get to know people more closely through written communication than in person. More confidences are shared and at greater length than real life often allows.

Frankly, I see a much greater risk in meeting men in bars, restaurants, etc. Even mutual friend referrals or meeting in church is no guarantee that someone is not a sociopath or just untrustworthy. We've all read enough true crime to know that. Of course, one has to be careful and good judgment is necessary. It's all in how you go about it.

JMO

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 02:39 PM

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

Oh, boy, Cha! You're a hard task master (mistress?) I took copious notes, but I'd have to go over them all and try to glean your answers from there. Can I get back to you after I have some late lunch?

JMO

Ardy

04-14-2012, 02:46 PM

IMO

I must add.............

That I have incredible difficulty trying to understand why MR acted the way he did "after" the crime was committed..........if he had no knowledge it was going to happen.

His conduct following..............is just not explainable, to me.

I could not imagine someone so uncaring, self centered, and morally corrupt that they would hide the evidence and pretend it all didn't happen.

The only explanation I can think of..........is that he has severe disorders himself and his brain is fried from drugs.

That isn't an excuse for his conduct..........but it is all I can think of..........

Even then it is a big stretch.

IMO

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 02:47 PM

I quoted you and made my replies in blue inside your quote :)

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

I believe that one of the hairs had female DNA and the other could not be identified.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

I believe Derstine already suggested in his opening statement that TLM told MR that she was taking VS for a drug debt! Their whole defense is based on that.

Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

I'm pretty sure you have that the wrong way around, I think that the womand was driving JG to an appointment and they saw MR on the sidewalk.
JMO

tmhco

04-14-2012, 02:50 PM

IMO.....JMO......MOO

This trial seems to have diverged onto two different paths.......from the point of abduction

The Crown assertions are that MR was not only a knowing participant, but he was directing TLM to enable his plans.

The defense (apparent) assertions are that TLM abducted VS without the knowledge of MR and their version of events happened from there.

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.

With that in mind, I am puzzled by several things.

The video of the abduction shows TLM leading VS away, allegedly without knowing who VS was. She is apparently unconcerned that she has to pass people standing on the sidewalk waiting for someone. We saw one person in the video, and there may have been others who were waiting in other locations or in their cars. TLM also would not know if VS was expecting someone to come for her but who had not arrived yet. If TLM didn't know who VS was.......she wouldn't know which person on the street or coming down the street would want to know why she was with their daughter.

I find TLM's statement that she introduced herself to VS by discussing her dog, exactly the same breed as owned by VS, as a pretty big coincidence. Of all the conversations in the world they could have had......it was about a dog of the breed that both of them had.

Even accepting that, I am not sure VS would walk away with her.........just because she had a similar dog. VS was expecting to walk with her brother and would have waited for his return, I would think.

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

So now.......TLM knew MR who knew both AC and JG. AC and JG knew both TM and VS.

The circle becomes even smaller when one considers that TLM lived with her mother CM who sold drugs to TM and JG.

My own conclusion is that it is far more likely that TLM knew of VS, than she didn't.

I would be wondering if MR was the one texting JG...........or JG was texting MR......or neither were texting each other.

I was disappointed the Crown didn't ask that question.

Basically, I am wondering why the Crown has chosen not to probe more deeply than they have, because their case is not a slam dunk by a long shot.

If the Crown had settled the abduction and drug debt issues at the start, their case would look a lot stronger now.

JMO

What are your thoughts on the murder location? Do you think it was a coincidence that MR had worked so close? That information seems so telling, as he was the driver. JMO

Salem

04-14-2012, 02:52 PM

Snipped for space
IMO.....JMO......MOO

If the Crown had settled the abduction and drug debt issues at the start, their case would look a lot stronger now.

JMO

Maybe the question is left open for the implication that JG ripped off MR. MR appears to have been selling drugs based on the wad of money and the note about paying for the Oxys in his car.

Just a thought - we won't know until the defense presents their case, but I agree that the connections on both TLM's and MR's part to VS seem to be somewhat more than coincidences.

That does not mean that I believe or place any blame whatsoever on the Tori's parents. I don't care who owed who what, it was not their fault that this happened.

Salem

gardenia

04-14-2012, 02:56 PM

great questions ardy ... well articulated too.

i too find it hard to believe that TLM didn't know VS. this is a small town, for starters, plus CM sold drugs to VS's mom & JG ... and TLM lived with CM. i mean, hasn't that all been established? we saw TM & JG's names & phone numbers in CM's house, right?

and why would an 8 year old just walk away with someone she didn't know? 8 is old enough to know about 'stranger danger'. i still think that TLM probably said something like "your mom asked me to pick you up today & babysit" ... which would explain the ease with which they seem to walk away together.

to me this one point makes all the difference in the world in this case!

swedie

04-14-2012, 02:57 PM

Women MR was involved with from 2005 to May 19, 2009, the day of his arrest

8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Youth worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.

9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car. Friends at time of arrest.

10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.

11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.

12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.

13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.

14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.

15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.

16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.

17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.

18. J. Etsell a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive. "I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships." His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account.

19. M. Munger a St. Thomas resident, says she first met Rafferty 2001 in Toronto at a club in 2001 when he was living at a friend's house on Queen St. W. She became re-acquainted through[/u] Facebook last year 2008.She said Rafferty, then unemployed, was nonetheless well dressed in the latest fashions. "It's kind of hard for someone without money but you could tell he wanted to look good to impress the ladies. She "recalled a charming, good-looking guy who used party drugs and seemed to rely on friends for shelter.

20. Tina, 29 a Woodstock resident who asked that her last name not be used, met Rafferty on the dating site POF[/color] a year and a half ago (Early 2008?). She says Rafferty quickly wanted to escalate their friendship to a romantic level. When she balked, he became distant – except when he needed money or drugs. "I mentioned ... one day that my Dad has some medical problems and uses OxyContin," Then "he started phoning me up asking for Oxy. At one point he said he needed it for his mom and then for himself. For a while that's all he would call me about." Tina says the two hung out "all the time," going for coffee or for drives. "He was friendly, nice, and seemed intelligent. He talked a lot about fashion, girls and claimed he was a dance instructor," she said.

I'm sure there will be more in due time. moo

Ardy

04-14-2012, 03:01 PM

What are your thoughts on the murder location? Do you think it was a coincidence that MR had worked so close? That information seems so telling, as he was the driver. JMO

No I believe he knew the area and knew of the farm lane.

Why he was there.....depends on which side of the events is true, IMO

The Crown would say he was there to commit the terrible crimes in seclusion.

The defense would say that after he was advised by TLM that she had abducted VS until a drug debt was paid, he needed a place to go and collect his thoughts, make a couple of phone calls, and maybe take a bathroom break for all of them.

In either scenario, he was probably there because he had prior knowledge of the farm lane..........IMO.

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 03:02 PM

Snipped for space

Maybe the question is left open for the implication that JG ripped off MR. MR appears to have been selling drugs based on the wad of money and the note about paying for the Oxys in his car.

Just a thought - we won't know until the defense presents their case, but I agree that the connections on both TLM's and MR's part to VS seem to be somewhat more than coincidences.

That does not mean that I believe or place any blame whatsoever on the Tori's parents. I don't care who owed who what, it was not their fault that this happened.

Salem

Thanks Salem. I would like to add that MR was on the phone a lot and did not turn it off when he was with others--could people have been calling for drugs?:moo:

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 03:03 PM

great questions ardy ... well articulated too.

i too find it hard to believe that TLM didn't know VS. this is a small town, for starters, plus CM sold drugs to VS's mom & JG ... and TLM lived with CM. i mean, hasn't that all been established? we saw TM & JG's names & phone numbers in CM's house, right?

and why would an 8 year old just walk away with someone she didn't know? 8 is old enough to know about 'stranger danger'. i still think that TLM probably said something like "your mom asked me to pick you up today & babysit" ... which would explain the ease with which they seem to walk away together.

to me this one point makes all the difference in the world in this case!

I think children are naive and never know enough about stranger danger. It's not poor Victoria's fault she walked away with someone who promised to show her a puppy and she's not the last one who will. Everone loves puppies and kittens.

Look at Cederika Provencher, she was a year older than Tori and she was quite easily conned by a man who says he lost his dog.

swedie

04-14-2012, 03:09 PM

Funny how from day one MR was known as a womanizer, cheater user, loser, druggie and bum. MOO

Article dated June 7, 2009

Michael Rafferty has been named as a suspect in the Tori Stafford murder in Ontario. He was named after a fellow suspect reportedly heard that he was dating other women. Learn more about the man in the centre of this case.
It’s known that Michael Rafferty was a ladies man. He is accused of cheating on his girlfriends, Tara McDonald, the mother of Tori Stafford, told police.

Rafferty has a son. It’s been said that as a father he wasn’t in contact with his son.

Rafferty was also a party guy. The Toronto Star reports that in Toronto, where he lived ten years ago, he was a regular at a bar on Peter Street.

In Woodstock he spent time at Good Times Charlie’s.

Although some have called the man odd, no one would have connected him to the murder of a child.

Rafferty is said to be on a suicide watch at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre in London, Ontario.

While how it has turned out that TLM, MR, AC, TM, JG and CM are all intertwined in some way seems like a very unusual coincidence and that Tori was not taken at random, it also doesn't surprise me a well. Woodstock is not a big city and there is always six degrees of separation. They all ran in the same circles, how many people sell percs and oxys in Woodstock I wonder?

Jmo

Macright

04-14-2012, 03:12 PM

IMO.....JMO......MOO

This trial seems to have diverged onto two different paths.......from the point of abduction

The Crown assertions are that MR was not only a knowing participant, but he was directing TLM to enable his plans.

The defense (apparent) assertions are that TLM abducted VS without the knowledge of MR and their version of events happened from there.

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.

With that in mind, I am puzzled by several things.

The video of the abduction shows TLM leading VS away, allegedly without knowing who VS was. She is apparently unconcerned that she has to pass people standing on the sidewalk waiting for someone. We saw one person in the video, and there may have been others who were waiting in other locations or in their cars. TLM also would not know if VS was expecting someone to come for her but who had not arrived yet. If TLM didn't know who VS was.......she wouldn't know which person on the street or coming down the street would want to know why she was with their daughter.

I find TLM's statement that she introduced herself to VS by discussing her dog, exactly the same breed as owned by VS, as a pretty big coincidence. Of all the conversations in the world they could have had......it was about a dog of the breed that both of them had.

Even accepting that, I am not sure VS would walk away with her.........just because she had a similar dog. VS was expecting to walk with her brother and would have waited for his return, I would think.

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.

Immediately and throughout the disappearance and trial, there have been rumors of a drug debt. The rumors were denied throughout, until TM confirmed that she did not have a drug debt.......but her boyfriend JG did rip someone off for $400 worth of pills. In the drug debt world, I doubt they make such fine distinctions.

I found it puzzling that the Crown did not pursue it, and ask who was owed the drug debt. If the drug debt was owed to someone totally uninvolved and not connected in any way to the trial.........it would have crushed all the rumors the debt was connected to the abduction.

Why didn't they ask? By not asking, they left the door open to the defense to introduce their theory about an abduction for a drug debt.

Moving ahead to recent testimony..........and someone can correct me if I am wrong.............

Prior to the abduction, MR knew one woman who knew TM, and to whose home VS had been to play with her kids.

TLM knew MR who knew AC who knew VS and TM.

I believe in her testimony the woman also said that she and MR were in the car and saw JG on the sidewalk. She said they began texting, although I was not clear on who was texting who by her testimony.

So now.......TLM knew MR who knew both AC and JG. AC and JG knew both TM and VS.

The circle becomes even smaller when one considers that TLM lived with her mother CM who sold drugs to TM and JG.

My own conclusion is that it is far more likely that TLM knew of VS, than she didn't.

I would be wondering if MR was the one texting JG...........or JG was texting MR......or neither were texting each other.

I was disappointed the Crown didn't ask that question.

Basically, I am wondering why the Crown has chosen not to probe more deeply than they have, because their case is not a slam dunk by a long shot.

If the Crown had settled the abduction and drug debt issues at the start, their case would look a lot stronger now.

JMO

all of the main players in this are connected somehow, even TM & JG..there is a common denominator that connects them all and that is oxy/drugs... either they are users or sellers...:moo::moo: I think at the closing we will hear some of the answers made by Dirk.... the only one who stands alone IMO is RS...I see no connection to any of the others except that he is the father of TS and ex of TM....I feel each time I hear RS speak that he is holding back something that he would like to speak out about but can't...I feel he has it all figured out and one day we may hear what he has to say...:moo: LE tried to zero in on this for weeks at the start but backed off after TS body was found...reasons unknown...I remember the setup at the hotel in Toronto and the limo...

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 03:14 PM

Funny how from day one MR was known as a womanizer, cheater user, loser, druggie and bum. MOO

Snipped for space:

I find it really strange too that we know almost nothing about TLM's dating habits, she says on her Tag profile that she is bi but has she ever had a bi relationship with anyone? I haven't heard of any. Of course she was really young, she may not have had that many relationships plus she was probably very wary of men after her own rape from childhood.

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 03:18 PM

No I believe he knew the area and knew of the farm lane.

Why he was there.....depends on which side of the events is true, IMO

The Crown would say he was there to commit the terrible crimes in seclusion.

The defense would say that after he was advised by TLM that she had abducted VS until a drug debt was paid, he needed a place to go and collect his thoughts, make a couple of phone calls, and maybe take a bathroom break for all of them.

In either scenario, he was probably there because he had prior knowledge of the farm lane..........IMO.

(RBBM)

I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.

Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)

JMO

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 03:24 PM

Of the seven female witnesses yesterday, I would only classify one as a "cougar". The rest ranged in age from 23 to 33 years old. But that was just yesterday.

For the record, I am very close to two women who met men on an online dating site, albeit not POF. One has been very happily married to the guy for 3+ years and the other is set to marry hers in June. I also have an acquaintance who met his wife of 20+ years online. They were both pioneers to the internet technology, although I think their meeting was prior to dating sites.

I have met more than a dozen women (no men) in real life that I got to know online within the past 15 years. All have been positive, wonderful experiences and I'm still friends with all but one. I have actually visited three of them in different countries. In a lot of cases, you can get to know people more closely through written communication than in person. More confidences are shared and at greater length than real life often allows.

Frankly, I see a much greater risk in meeting men in bars, restaurants, etc. Even mutual friend referrals or meeting in church is no guarantee that someone is not a sociopath or just untrustworthy. We've all read enough true crime to know that. Of course, one has to be careful and good judgment is necessary. It's all in how you go about it.

JMO

I have no problem with people meeting on dating sites, chat rooms or Facebook... nor do I have a problem with cafes, bars or gyms.
For over 25 years I have been in Hotel Management and I met my wonderful husband, some great friends from all over the world and some really bad people as well. The hotel business is transient by nature so people tend to either be on their best behavior or their worse. “Fawlty Towers” is my life.
In my experience at least once a year I am exposed to some young girl hooked on something or another and can I tell you the brightest of young men sometimes gets caught up in some sort of drama. Pretty wounded young girl whose life was full of abuse and the young man comes to save the day and BOOM … right in the middle of an S%^t storm. Now it does go both ways … but from my experience the girls are more explosive.

swedie

04-14-2012, 03:25 PM

Oh, thank you. From what I have read, I was left with the impression that they met, and started dating, when she was 17. Which was probably done deliberately (you know how reporters can be... much more interesting to leave out the part where they started dating when she was no longer a minor... :eyeroll: ).

The 50 year old made me go :what: , too. What could a 50 year old woman possibly want from a then-28 year old boy (young man, but boy in comparison). She could be his mother! But, I guess if somebody was lonely enough to use POF to find a date, his age didn't matter. (And I am not trying to be judgemental by that statement. I have used POF, myself, until I was absolutely creeped out by most of the people who contacted me, including one that threatened to 'find' me after I didn't respond... promptly deleted my profile after that). In fact, I believe that is what he was looking for on POF. Extremely lonely, possibly desperate women... :moo:

Lonely desperate women with young daughters, the single mom thing, kwim. :what: MR may have been looking for a new mama to baby him and take care of him...'Sugar mama'. :moo:

Ardy

04-14-2012, 03:25 PM

I quoted you and made my replies in blue inside your quote :)

Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?

I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.

IMO

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 03:25 PM

(RBBM)

I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.

Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)

JMO

A drug meeting place for exchange of cash for drugs or a party place? But this can't be proven--yet....:moo:

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 03:27 PM

great questions ardy ... well articulated too.

i too find it hard to believe that TLM didn't know VS. this is a small town, for starters, plus CM sold drugs to VS's mom & JG ... and TLM lived with CM. i mean, hasn't that all been established? we saw TM & JG's names & phone numbers in CM's house, right?

and why would an 8 year old just walk away with someone she didn't know? 8 is old enough to know about 'stranger danger'. i still think that TLM probably said something like "your mom asked me to pick you up today & babysit" ... which would explain the ease with which they seem to walk away together.

to me this one point makes all the difference in the world in this case!

When I walk my dogs I find that people with dogs usully stop to talk... ESPECIALLY if you have the same breed. I would assume that they may have met before with or with out a family member with her.

flipflop

04-14-2012, 03:27 PM

(RBBM)

I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.

Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)

JMO

from Guelph to Riverston landfill site where the landscaping job was, the laneway area is a 5 min drive out of his way. I agree, he would have had no reason to travel this laneway or this part of the road with a landscaping crew of at least one other person. I am thinking he was on a date with yet another female from POF. At the end of the day on friday there was a tweet about the MF chapter will continue on Tuesday with another 8 people to take the stand. This makes me wonder if any of these 8 are more from POF and if any of them are from the MF area, putting him very close to this laneway once again. JMO

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 03:30 PM

Another thought just came to mind regarding MTR being on the phone a lot and the possible drug dealer hat (among others, lol). MTR told at least one of the women that he was a contractor and that is why he was on the phone a lot. If he was just an innocent telephone junkie, then why the lies? Unless he was talking/texting other women constantly. This would have been a question that could have been directed towards the women by the Crown. I wonder if the Crown follows up on our suggestions?--somehow I doubt it. MOO

Macright

04-14-2012, 03:39 PM

Another thought just came to mind regarding MTR being on the phone a lot and the possible drug dealer hat (among others, lol). MTR told at least one of the women that he was a contractor and that is why he was on the phone a lot. If he was just an innocent telephone junkie, then why the lies? Unless he was talking/texting other women constantly. This would have been a question that could have been directed towards the women by the Crown. I wonder if the Crown follows up on our suggestions?--somehow I doubt it. MOO

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 03:46 PM

A drug meeting place for exchange of cash for drugs or a party place? But this can't be proven--yet....:moo:

I'd go with a possible party place, but not for drugs. It's too out of the way and unnecessary. A drug deal usually takes less than a minute and can be done almost anywhere. I've seen it happen behind the busy 7-Eleven here in town and under tables (or on top) in public restaurants. There's no need to drive several hundred metres up a deserted country lane. But if there were any parties up there, the Crown has had 3 years to find even one person to testify to that. You would think that anyone from the area who has access to the news would have come forward or been found by the prosecution. And this chapter of the trial is finished. The Crown expects to be completely done in a week and a half.

JMO

Ardy

04-14-2012, 03:48 PM

(RBBM)

I'm still on the fence about that one. MTR may have passed that lane during his landscaping work, but would have no reason to travel it. The company owner testified yesterday that his employees always worked in teams of at least two. Both MTR and his partner would have had to agree to investigate that lane, and I don't see that happening when they had a job to go to and return from.

Now, it's possible that he took one of his dates up there for a rendezvous, but had it been one of the previous witnesses and they remembered, there is no way for the Crown to have missed asking them that question specifically. I therefore have to conclude that if he had been up that lane before, it was either alone (why?) or with a girl the Crown has yet to find. Had the Crown found evidence that he had actually traveled to that specific crime location in the past, yesterday would have been the day to bring it up. But all they had was that he was "familiar with the (general) area". So, another piece of circumstantial evidence. (Yes, yes, I know.)

JMO

I am not all that convinced that MR knew of the lane, and mostly base my opinion on the fact that if driving down the highway..........that lane would come up pretty quick on someone. It isn't a well marked entrance.

I also wonder if the local young people were asked if it was a popular "bush party" area..........although I doubt the farmer would have allowed that on his land.

You are right though..........the Crown just threw it out there and didn't really pursue it much.

JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 03:49 PM

Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?

I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.

IMO

I'm a bit vague on that, but you may be right about the texting, I really would have to go back to the tweet and check and so lazy right now :)

Ardy

04-14-2012, 03:51 PM

I'm a bit vague on that, but you may be right about the texting, I really would have to go back to the tweet and check and so lazy right now :)

And it is getting almost impossible to find anything again......with the volume of pages building up...........

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 03:53 PM

from Guelph to Riverston landfill site where the landscaping job was, the laneway area is a 5 min drive out of his way. I agree, he would have had no reason to travel this laneway or this part of the road with a landscaping crew of at least one other person. I am thinking he was on a date with yet another female from POF. At the end of the day on friday there was a tweet about the MF chapter will continue on Tuesday with another 8 people to take the stand. This makes me wonder if any of these 8 are more from POF and if any of them are from the MF area, putting him very close to this laneway once again. JMO

Oh! I haven't read the Tweets yet and may have missed that they're not yet finished with Mt. Forest. I thought they were. Sorry.

I do know one thing from yesterday, though. They originally had 10 witnesses that were scheduled to testify. The Crown told the judge at the beginning that they decided to omit two of those witnesses because their testimony was just redundant. This is why it was such a short day. So, why would they close up shop at 1:00 p.m. yesterday if there were more witnesses from this chapter? (Unless it was a last minute decision and any forthcoming witnesses were not yet available, I guess.)

JMO

Jezbel

04-14-2012, 03:53 PM

Thanks HK....I do believe you are right and JG was the one in the car while MR was on the sidewalk. Did the witness not also say something to the effect that they began texting?

I was just wondering who began texting whom, or if it was ever explained.

IMO

I think Amanda said she started texting with rafferty. I will have to go back and look at the tweets and or news reports.

Also sorry of this has been answered, haven't made it to the end of the thread yet.

JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 03:57 PM

Another thought just came to mind regarding MTR being on the phone a lot and the possible drug dealer hat (among others, lol). MTR told at least one of the women that he was a contractor and that is why he was on the phone a lot. If he was just an innocent telephone junkie, then why the lies? Unless he was talking/texting other women constantly. This would have been a question that could have been directed towards the women by the Crown. I wonder if the Crown follows up on our suggestions?--somehow I doubt it. MOO

The best scenario for being so rude being on the phone alot whilst he was dating and telling his dates he was a contractor or dance instructor taking calls/texting would be that he was actually dealing drugs and people were texting him to see if he had any. Someone who would have alot of contacts for drugs would be getting bombarded by calls absolutely all the time IMO.

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 04:01 PM

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

I agree and to show that for someone who was so horrified by what he saw would continue to live his normal life. He probably got totally scared tho after the cops interviewed him on May 15th, that's when BA said she saw him a couples 2 or three times after and said he looked stressed and haggard and looked like he had a cold sore.

BBM, correction, I don't think she said that after May 15th, disregard that part.

Chapter 6. The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7. The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8. Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9. Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8.

Chapter 10. The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11. The BlackBerry.

Chapter 12. A recap of the surveillance video

maxfactor

04-14-2012, 04:01 PM

All these posts about the possible drug debt between MR and JG have me thinking. I'd like to say first that regardless of whether or not that is true it absolutely does not mean that JG or TM were in any way responsible for what happened, they have been through hell and it's not fair or decent to bash them. A couple of questions I wish the Crown had asked, first of all I was surprised that TM was not asked if she knew MR. Very surprised. I think the Crown is trying their best to do this in the easiest way so as not to add more pain to the family. I noticed that Derstine didn't ask her that either and I really expected that he would. Perhaps it's because he knew her answer would be yes and he is trying to go with the TLM drug debt theory. The other thing is, was TLM asked if she was with MR when he drove by the school at 9:05 that morning? I'd like to know if she was, that could show MR was showing her which child he wanted. Or perhaps he was just checking to see if any children walked to school unaccompanied. IMO something is missing.:waitasec::moo:

flipflop

04-14-2012, 04:06 PM

Oh! I haven't read the Tweets yet and may have missed that they're not yet finished with Mt. Forest. I thought they were. Sorry.

I do know one thing from yesterday, though. They originally had 10 witnesses that were scheduled to testify. The Crown told the judge at the beginning that they decided to omit two of those witnesses because their testimony was just redundant. This is why it was such a short day. So, why would they close up shop at 1:00 p.m. yesterday if there were more witnesses from this chapter? (Unless it was a last minute decision and any forthcoming witnesses were not yet available, I guess.)

JMO

RaffertyLFP: Court is done for day - 8 witnesses Resumes on Tuesday with more Mt. Forest

Im guessing that these 8 may have the MF connection, putting MR in the area.JMO To have a whole chapter set up for this area, they really have not provided too much info....there has to be more than just the landscaping job as a connection to the area IMO

swedie

04-14-2012, 04:12 PM

MR went on a POF bender after the kidnapping. Maybe this was his version of "ugly coping" a la Casey Anthony.

Quite possible brighidin but I believe this behaviour has been going on for many years. We are just getting a peek at what went on in the year of 2009, as it relates to this case. IMHO something in MR's head went wonky as he couldn't take all the female rejection is his life. From everything I have read about him, it appears these women rejected him, not him rejecting them. Even when he pressured them to respond when they weren't interested, goes to prove he didn't handle rejection well. He seemed needy and wanted confirmation these women liked him and wanted him around. Even TLM was smart enough to reject him after that first date, but it seems he was persistent and forced himself upon her by showing up at her door. Then as she said, she tried to see only the good in MR. She recognize his abuse and put downs but her need for love kept her optimistic and attached. :moo:

MR told a couple, or at least one woman he had a bad childhood, didn't get along with his brothers and so on. I really feel he could not handle all the rejection and took it out on women through rough sex and then finally raping Tori. It would be very interesting to find out what kind of relationship he had with his mother. Doesn't sound too promising as he was shipped away to live with his aunt and uncle. :moo:

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 04:17 PM

Yes, maybe if Mr. Rafferty would have graced us with his version of events, we all might be better informed. JMO

You could be right, and maybe, if his version is the truth. Not sure how that will go, jmo, will be surprised if he testifies, but that's jmo

sillybilly

04-14-2012, 04:21 PM

I move forward to the pea coat, which TLM said covered VS for several hours. I expected there would be some DNA residue on a heavy material coat like that one.........and there was, but none of it was identified as VS DNA. Maybe it was there and is now gone. Maybe it was never there because the coat never covered VS. A question left unanswered.
<rsbm>

I'm pretty sure that type of coat has a satin type of lining. Usually when you cover something with a coat, you cover with the lining toward the item. In that case, i would think that not as much DNA would adhere upward to a slippery surface (compared to the woolen exterior), and that a good shake of coat would remove most, if not all, of what might have clung to the inside.

JMO

daisy.faithfull

04-14-2012, 04:25 PM

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

I think that there was much more to putting all those women up on the stand.

It showed the type of person MTR is, a man who lies easily and often and is very manipulative. I think it's very similar to showing the jury all those hideous letters etc. that demonstrated just how sick TLM is.

It also showed that he was completely at ease talking about Tory's abduction. I wish the women he did speak to about Tory's disappearance would have been asked to describe MTR's demeanor while doing so. Since none of them said that they thought MTR's demeanor was strange when talking about Tory, I'm assuming that he looked and acted like every other normal person talking about a child's abduction. IIRC, he even brought up Tara's drug use, blaming an innocent grief stricken mother who he knew was innocent.

And when it comes to MTR possibly being a drug dealer, I think that is very relavent as well. I also speaks to his character and shows that he is a criminal.

sillybilly

04-14-2012, 04:32 PM

So..............I believe that the abduction, and the reason for the abduction are absolutely crucial to supporting either side's assertions.<rsbm>

With all due respect Ardy, how do you think the reasons for the abduction would be supportive of either side's assertion?

An abduction is an abduction, regardless of the reason. If I were to abduct a minor simply because I was a weirdo who loved kids or wanted a playmate for my pet rabbit, it doesn't matter. It is the established fact that a child was taken without permission from the parent that constitutes the abduction, not the reasons for it.

MOO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 04:37 PM

I have no problem with people meeting on dating sites, chat rooms or Facebook... nor do I have a problem with cafes, bars or gyms.
For over 25 years I have been in Hotel Management and I met my wonderful husband, some great friends from all over the world and some really bad people as well. The hotel business is transient by nature so people tend to either be on their best behavior or their worse. “Fawlty Towers” is my life.
In my experience at least once a year I am exposed to some young girl hooked on something or another and can I tell you the brightest of young men sometimes gets caught up in some sort of drama. Pretty wounded young girl whose life was full of abuse and the young man comes to save the day and BOOM … right in the middle of an S%^t storm. Now it does go both ways … but from my experience the girls are more explosive.

Great post. I can relate. I recall another infamous Ontario case where imo the female was the more explosive lead jmo.

Maple1

04-14-2012, 04:38 PM

Just FYI for everyone. I know there has been discussion and some answers to the "disclosure" obligations from defense council to Crown council.

I found this on line.

The Canadian Bar Association has prepared the following document in PDF form.
Document title:
Frequently Asked Questions about Solicitor-Client Privilege and Confidentiality
Prepared by, Ethics and Professional Responsibility Committee
November 2010

See page 9, question 5
I am acting as defence counsel in criminal proceedings. What are my disclosure obligations to the prosecution?
Also, see question 7 on page 13.

when Tara testified: She and her boyfriend James Goris bought their OxyContin a few times from a woman named Carol McClintic a couple of months before Tori was killed, McDonald said. They went to her house twice -- one time her 18-year-old daughter Terri-Lynne was leaving the house as McDonald and Goris arrived, and a second time Terri-Lynne McClintic returned home while McDonald and Goris were there, she said.

The McClintics had two shih tzu dogs and McDonald had one, so they were discussing breeding them, court heard. She and her boyfriend were invited further into a bedroom in the dilapidated home and sat on the edge of a futon mattress, the only thing resembling furniture in the room, McDonald said.

"We sat on the edge and we started discussing the dogs and Terri-Lynne came in," McDonald said. "She (had gone) to go and use a payphone. She gave her mom a message then sat down. She was...very, very under the influence and I'm not sure if she had even noticed we were there that day."

Court was shown two items that were found in a bedroom in the McClintic house with McDonald's phone number on it -- one that McDonald said was in her writing, the other was not.

McDonald decided she didn't want to breed her dog with McClintics', and though Carol McClintic was upset, Goris continued to buy OxyContin from her. McDonald didn't go back to the McClintic house after that.

Tori had never met McClintic, but McDonald said she might have discussed the dog breeding at home in front of Tori and her brother Daryn. As of March 17 she will have been clean of both OxyContin and methadone for six months, she added.

this is a tweet, if not allowed I apologize and please delete: Derstine asks McClintic about Rafferty's knowledge of the area around Oliver Stephens Public School and Tori Stafford. She says that to her knowledge Rafferty did not know Tara McDonald, James Goris or Tori Stafford and lived on the other end of Woodstock. It was McClintic who often walked in the area.
by Jon Hembrey edited by CBC News 3/23/2012 2:34:55 PM March 23 at 7:34 AM

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 04:55 PM

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

Cha, I'm going to do this in two separate posts and answer the easiest one first. The way the courtroom is set up, it was difficult for me to see MTR.

Spectators are seated at the centre, very back of the room. There is one bench at the far north end with an aisle in front of it. In front of the aisle are two more rows of benches for spectators. IIRC, there is then a clear wall, south of which are several desks and computer terminals for the media. Ahead of them is another, larger aisle, after which comes the desk of the court clerk and then the judge's raised desk at the very front/south wall. To the left front is the witness stand.

Along the left north wall are rows of shorter benches reserved for the victim's family and more press. South of them are the seats for the jurors.

On the right of the room there are two sets of doors - one at the north and one at the south end. The southern doors are where the jury enters and exits. The northern doors are used by everyone else. Witnesses are brought in just before they testify through these northern doors by a page and escorted out again when they're finished.

Between these two sets of doors on the right are several (4 - 6?) glass or plexiglass cubicles where the defendant sits or stands. MTR was placed in the middle cubicle, IIRC. Outside the cubicle, on each side, stands a guard. (I thought it was kind of funny that these guards were both silver-haired older men. The ones outside the courtroom and downstairs were young, muscular, tough-looking dudes!)

So ... with rows of people in front of me and MTR being off to the middle right, I barely caught a few glimpses of him. The most I saw of him was when he was standing. But each time I looked, he had a neutral, serious expression on his face. I did not see him smile, frown, yawn, or anything like that. Doesn't mean it didn't happen - I just wasn't afforded a good view for any length of time.

HTH

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 04:56 PM

RaffertyLFP: Court is done for day - 8 witnesses Resumes on Tuesday with more Mt. Forest

Im guessing that these 8 may have the MF connection, putting MR in the area.JMO To have a whole chapter set up for this area, they really have not provided too much info....there has to be more than just the landscaping job as a connection to the area IMO

Perhaps the next witnesses were the contractors who worked with MR. Perhaps they had their lunch hour at the scene.

snoofer

04-14-2012, 04:58 PM

The best scenario for being so rude being on the phone alot whilst he was dating and telling his dates he was a contractor or dance instructor taking calls/texting would be that he was actually dealing drugs and people were texting him to see if he had any. Someone who would have alot of contacts for drugs would be getting bombarded by calls absolutely all the time IMO.

and we do not know if he is involved in other sorts of activities either JMO

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 05:03 PM

<rsbm>

I'm pretty sure that type of coat has a satin type of lining. Usually when you cover something with a coat, you cover with the lining toward the item. In that case, i would think that not as much DNA would adhere upward to a slippery surface (compared to the woolen exterior), and that a good shake of coat would remove most, if not all, of what might have clung to the inside.

JMO

I respectfully beg to differ, Billy. Maybe hair would have come off easily, but if TLM is to be believed, there should have been DNA from saliva, tears, and nose secretions. Even if Tori didn't cry, I doubt that minute particles of saliva could have escaped being deposited after such a long time.

I believe we've already had a post or two about how difficult it is to completely remove DNA. Also, had the coat been dry cleaned, there would have been evidence of dry cleaning fluid found in the lab exams and nothing was raised in testimony to indicate this.

JMO

gardenia

04-14-2012, 05:07 PM

thanks flossie for your post ...

from what i read, it sounds like CM was upset with TM for not agreeing to breed their dogs, and perhaps so upset that TM didn't go back to CM's house again. is it possible that TLM was privy to either this discussion or the grudge her mother felt towards TM?

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 05:12 PM

RaffertyLFP: Court is done for day - 8 witnesses Resumes on Tuesday with more Mt. Forest

Im guessing that these 8 may have the MF connection, putting MR in the area.JMO To have a whole chapter set up for this area, they really have not provided too much info....there has to be more than just the landscaping job as a connection to the area IMO

Chapter 8. Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9. Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8.

So, did they reverse the above two chapters then? Because yesterday's testimony sure sounded like Chapter 9 to me. :waitasec:

snoofer

04-14-2012, 05:14 PM

anything for a "piece" I guess....I don't call that misrepresentation...that's too big of a word for MR to know..... I would call that just plain lies to suit the situation....who knows...maybe he was constipated a lot and thought he had something major wrong with him.... still doesn't make him a murderer or rapist...I need more than that to convince me...:moo:

with the amount of narcotics he was taking IMO he would have been very very constipated all the time and probably felt like he had colon cancer JMO

snoofer

04-14-2012, 05:15 PM

thanks flossie for your post ...

from what i read, it sounds like CM was upset with TM for not agreeing to breed their dogs, and perhaps so upset that TM didn't go back to CM's house again. is it possible that TLM was privy to either this discussion or the grudge her mother felt towards TM?

I think there is alot CM could tell us.:moo:

Jezbel

04-14-2012, 05:17 PM

Ok so another thought on the laneway and how he came to find it.

When I was younger there wasn't a whole lot to do in our town and i hung out with a lot of what we call boy racers lol, I also had my little kitted out car as did some of my female friends. Anyways we would go driving around a lot, all kinds of places, through the country side, along the cliffs, old closed down mental hospitals etc. If we came across small laneways we would often drive down them and see what was there, we found all kinds of secluded places. We would always drive the little back roads, more twisty and fun lol. Since he did a lot of driving around that area I think it's highly possible that's how he found it and ended up taking Tori there.

JMO

daisy.faithfull

04-14-2012, 05:18 PM

when Tara testified: She and her boyfriend James Goris bought their OxyContin a few times from a woman named Carol McClintic a couple of months before Tori was killed, McDonald said. They went to her house twice -- one time her 18-year-old daughter Terri-Lynne was leaving the house as McDonald and Goris arrived, and a second time Terri-Lynne McClintic returned home while McDonald and Goris were there, she said.

The McClintics had two shih tzu dogs and McDonald had one, so they were discussing breeding them, court heard. She and her boyfriend were invited further into a bedroom in the dilapidated home and sat on the edge of a futon mattress, the only thing resembling furniture in the room, McDonald said.

"We sat on the edge and we started discussing the dogs and Terri-Lynne came in," McDonald said. "She (had gone) to go and use a payphone. She gave her mom a message then sat down. She was...very, very under the influence and I'm not sure if she had even noticed we were there that day."

Court was shown two items that were found in a bedroom in the McClintic house with McDonald's phone number on it -- one that McDonald said was in her writing, the other was not.

McDonald decided she didn't want to breed her dog with McClintics', and though Carol McClintic was upset, Goris continued to buy OxyContin from her. McDonald didn't go back to the McClintic house after that.

Tori had never met McClintic, but McDonald said she might have discussed the dog breeding at home in front of Tori and her brother Daryn. As of March 17 she will have been clean of both OxyContin and methadone for six months, she added.

this is a tweet, if not allowed I apologize and please delete: Derstine asks McClintic about Rafferty's knowledge of the area around Oliver Stephens Public School and Tori Stafford. She says that to her knowledge Rafferty did not know Tara McDonald, James Goris or Tori Stafford and lived on the other end of Woodstock. It was McClintic who often walked in the area.
by Jon Hembrey edited by CBC News 3/23/2012 2:34:55 PM March 23 at 7:34 AM

If TLM never met Tory, how did she know that she was Tara's daughter? Did she stalk Tara? If she did she more than likely would know how Tory got home from school and Tory normally did not not walk home alone so how would TLM know that on that day she would be on her own.

The same applies to MTR, and while he went to the same bar as Tara, I highly doubt Tory ever went to Good Time Charlie's with her mom.

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.

Ms. McDonald said she did not know Mr. Rafferty.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 05:26 PM

If TLM never met Tory, how did she know that she was Tara's daughter? Did she stalk Tara? If she did she more than likely would know how Tory got home from school and Tory normally did not not walk home alone so how would TLM know that on that day she would be on her own.

The same applies to MTR, and while he went to the same bar as Tara, I highly doubt Tory ever went to Good Time Charlie's with her mom.

I really have no idea about TLM knowing Tori. JMO I never believed it was random, JMO

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.

Ms. McDonald said she did not know Mr. Rafferty.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. But how did TLM know that Tory would be walking alone that day?

flipflop

04-14-2012, 05:29 PM

Chapter 8. Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9. Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8.

So, did they reverse the above two chapters then? Because yesterday's testimony sure sounded like Chapter 9 to me. :waitasec:

Thats what I was thinking as well. It was at the end of yesterday that the landscaping business owner discussed the area, then the day ended stating they would hear more on the MF chapter.

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 05:35 PM

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. But how did TLM know that Tory would be walking alone that day?

I don't know if she knew Tori would be walking alone or not. I don't know if she knew when and where Tori normally would meet her brother either, or if there was a normal place and time.

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.

Ms. McDonald said she did not know Mr. Rafferty.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

wow..thanks for that article..so that does answer the question that TLM did in fact know TS... can see now why innocent little Tori would think nothing of going off with TLM....:moo:

Macright

04-14-2012, 05:37 PM

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. But how did TLM know that Tory would be walking alone that day?

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.

Ms. McDonald said she did not know Mr. Rafferty.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

Link is not working. Thanks though.

snoofer

04-14-2012, 05:40 PM

Both these nutters are responsible for Tori's death equally and the condition in which her body was found. Both were equally responsible for what Tori's family was put through. This crime could not have taken place if not for both of their actions; acting together. I am not sure why there is even a trial. JMO

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 05:44 PM

Questions if I may?

My understanding is that several of the women just met him once ... did any of them say exactly why they weren't interested in actually dating him? Did all of them "dump" him or did he dump them?

How many of the women had children under the age of 12?

Did you get a look at his expressions when each one testified? The media reported that he seemed upset during one woman's testimony last Thursday?

Thanks in advance!

(PS Well preserved lol! Like a pickle?)

And ... on to your other questions. Some of them are impossible to answer because if neither the Crown nor the defence asked a specific question, it was not stated. There is no story telling here - the witness only answers questions.

For instance, only two were asked if they were sexually intimate with MTR and they answered in the affirmative. It should be obvious that some of them never had the opportunity. Most of them were not asked if they had children, so there is no way to know for sure. They were not asked who dumped whom, but in a couple of cases, it seemed obvious.

All of them except RB met him through POF and there was communication via texts, MSM, and phone calls before some of them met with him.

Here is what I got from my notes:

#1 - AR

Current age - 25
Children? - not asked
Who dumped whom - not asked, but they only had one date before he was arrested

#2 - SL

Current age - 50
Children - Six of them (ages not specified)
Who dumped whom - not asked, not made clear if they even met in person

#3 - MW

Current age - 30
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - She declined dates, they never met in person. Seemed to have been her choice, as he persisted and she refused.

#4 - AC

Current age - 33
Children - Girl now 16, boy now 13
Who dumped whom - Unclear, but ended 3-4 days after Tori went missing. It appeared to be her choice, but not sure.

#5 - Name under ban

Current age - 28
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - Had one 15 minute coffee date. Further requests denied. Must assume she did the dumping.

#6 - SC

Current age - 29
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - MR cancelled first date. Had one coffee date another time. She decided they had nothing in common, so she dumped him.

#7 - RB

Current age - 23
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - She dumped him for another man after a several months' intimate relationship (ended Dec. '07)

Ms. McDonald confirmed that she and her boyfriend, James Goris, had suspicions about Ms. McClintic's involvement early in the investigation and told police.

She said Ms. McClintic's mother confirmed her daughter knew Tori before she went missing. "At that time Terri-Lynne's mom said, 'Oh, well, she knew who Victoria was' and she said she had seen Victoria walking her dog. Now, I don't know if that meant she had seen Victoria walking our dog or if that meant that she had seen Victoria while out walking their dogs. She did make it clear that Terri-Lynne knew who Victoria was," she said.

Ms. McDonald said she did not know Mr. Rafferty.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

I'm not sure I would take CM's word on that. Also, if that was so, wouldn't defense have called CM to testify about that?

Terri-Lynne McClintic turned Michael Rafferty in to police -- telling officers about the abduction and murder of Victoria "Tori" Stafford -- only after she learned he was dating another woman while she was in jail, said the dead girl's mother.

"From what I am told, and I don't know if it stands true or not, but the only reason that she confessed was that she found out he had found another girlfriend out here and that was pretty much her way of getting back," Tara McDonald said.

<modsnip>

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 05:50 PM

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. But how did TLM know that Tory would be walking alone that day?

Two possibilities and these are just guesses:

(1) TLM was staking out that school prior to April 8 and happened to "get lucky" that day

(2) TLM spoke to "someone" earlier that day and was told Tori would be alone

MOO!

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 05:52 PM

I'm not sure I would take CM's word on that. Also, if that was so, wouldn't defense have called CM to testify about that?

The defence has not had its turn yet. And for all we know, CM is lying in a hospice somewhere and may be too ill to testify.

JMO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 05:54 PM

<rsbm>

With all due respect Ardy, how do you think the reasons for the abduction would be supportive of either side's assertion?

An abduction is an abduction, regardless of the reason. If I were to abduct a minor simply because I was a weirdo who loved kids or wanted a playmate for my pet rabbit, it doesn't matter. It is the established fact that a child was taken without permission from the parent that constitutes the abduction, not the reasons for it.

MOO

Hi there, jmo, I think it would establish who drove the event so to speak. JMO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:00 PM

thanks flossie for your post ...

from what i read, it sounds like CM was upset with TM for not agreeing to breed their dogs, and perhaps so upset that TM didn't go back to CM's house again. is it possible that TLM was privy to either this discussion or the grudge her mother felt towards TM?

hi there, I wonder about this, and the drug debt TM stated JG had. Could it have been to C? I have no idea. I know TLM stated in her interview that she loves her Mom, it was in the context of the assaults, but I wonder, and wonder at if it could be a motive for the kidnap and brutal murder, and could be why she won't say so? Could her mother have been driving this?

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 06:00 PM

Hi there, jmo, I think it would establish who drove the event so to speak. JMO

I think that MTR should have known better tho, he should have known that no matter what you never take a child you don't know into your car. If indeed she told him she was babysitting, why would he go to Guelph. He should have just left them there and went to Guelph on his own.

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:05 PM

I think there is alot CM could tell us.:moo:

Will look for a link, I do recall Cm saying something about telling, or selling, the true story. Not that I believe that, but it was in MSM somewhere. JMO

Terri-Lynne McClintic turned Michael Rafferty in to police -- telling officers about the abduction and murder of Victoria "Tori" Stafford -- only after she learned he was dating another woman while she was in jail, said the dead girl's mother.

"From what I am told, and I don't know if it stands true or not, but the only reason that she confessed was that she found out he had found another girlfriend out here and that was pretty much her way of getting back," Tara McDonald said.

<modsnip>

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1622098&p=2

This link from May 2009 and the other link posted a few posts ago, also from the same month, were both written before anyone admitted to drug use, just saying. We later found out who was addicted to oxy and who was dealing, so who knows if these quoted stories were a cover for any type of drug connection.

Macright

04-14-2012, 06:11 PM

so it seems that TM knew from the start that this might be revenge on the part of TLM..maybe the breeding of the dogs was a way to pay down a drug debt...but it fell through..I would imagine $400.00 was a lot of money to someone like CM/TLM/TM/JG... just curious...since none of these individuals were working...what was their source of income...I believe I read that both TLM & TM were out that day picking up food stamps.... sad... JMO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:11 PM

I'm not sure I would take CM's word on that. Also, if that was so, wouldn't defense have called CM to testify about that?

Hey I totally understand your opinion. Just putting the article out there. No idea if she will be called or is alive etc.

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:13 PM

Sorry JBean, will try and find a working link, and understand copyright won't allow me posting the whole article. That's always a problem I know, articles in many cases are no longer available once some time passes. :(

Macright

04-14-2012, 06:14 PM

This link from May 2009 and the other link posted a few posts ago, also from the same month, were both written before anyone admitted to drug use, just saying. We later found out who was addicted to oxy and who was dealing, so who knows if these quoted stories were a cover for any type of drug connection.

actually if memory serves me, TM had already given an interview in her backyard and admitted to using oxy....:moo: before these two were arrested..

brighidin

04-14-2012, 06:19 PM

Two possibilities and these are just guesses:

(2) TLM spoke to "someone" earlier that day and was told Tori would be alone

MOO!
Who do you mean by "someone"? TM?
Why would "someone" tell TLM, a veritable stranger, save for two chance drug related meetings, that Tori was going to walk home alone?

Tori never walked home alone: her brother or grandma dealt with that. Besides, no one knew that she was going to be walking home alone since TM assumed her brother was going to walk with her, and he did go back to find her, it was just too late.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19472771.html
When she did not return home from Oliver Stephens school with her brother, mom and her family began a frantic and futile search before going to the police about 6 p.m.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19474236.html
This was supposed to be the first time Tori and her brother were walking home from school alone.

No one knew Tori was going to walk home alone because she wasn't supposed to.

moo

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:20 PM

Who do you mean by "someone"? TM?
Why would "someone" tell TLM, a veritable stranger, save for two chance drug related meetings, that Tori was going to walk home alone?

Tori never walked home alone: her brother or grandma dealt with that. Besides, no one knew that she was going to be walking home alone since TM assumed her brother was going to walk with her, and he did go back to find her, it was just too late.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19472771.html
When she did not return home from Oliver Stephens school with her brother, mom and her family began a frantic and futile search before going to the police about 6 p.m.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19474236.html
This was supposed to be the first time Tori and her brother were walking home from school alone.

No one knew Tori was going to walk home alone because she wasn't supposed to.

JMO if it happened, it was not TM that told anyone. JMO

(McDonald had moved into a house at Frances St. a week before. April 8 2009 was the first day Tori would be allowed to walk home alone from school.)

Who do you mean by "someone"? TM?
Why would "someone" tell TLM, a veritable stranger, save for two chance drug related meetings, that Tori was going to walk home alone?

Tori never walked home alone: her brother or grandma dealt with that. Besides, no one knew that she was going to be walking home alone since TM assumed her brother was going to walk with her, and he did go back to find her, it was just too late.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19472771.html
When she did not return home from Oliver Stephens school with her brother, mom and her family began a frantic and futile search before going to the police about 6 p.m.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19474236.html
This was supposed to be the first time Tori and her brother were walking home from school alone.

No one knew Tori was going to walk home alone because she wasn't supposed to.

it's strange that if Tori knew her brother would be back to walk her home and was told before hand that this would be the case why would she not wait for him...this leads me to believe that TLM concocted another lie and told Tori that she was sent to take her home....and since Tori knew TLM (somewhat through their dogs and Mother's contacts with TLM's Mother she went off with her...:moo:

dar107

04-14-2012, 06:23 PM

I am interested to know everyone's opinions on what will happen after the crown rests. Do you think that Derkstine will be calling witnesses, and presenting a case for MR?

Or do you think the defence will rest with only closing arguments, attacking the crowns case chapter by chapter, trying to create doubt in the jury that the crown has proved it's case beyond reasonable doubt?

I am very curious about this. Also IIRC, the time for Derkstine to make an opening statement would have been right after the Crowns opening, and he chose not too. Am i just confused about this, as it seems more logical that Defence would make their opening after the crown rests? Any input on this would be appreciated!

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 06:24 PM

actually if memory serves me, TM had already given an interview in her backyard and admitted to using oxy....:moo: before these two were arrested..

i think this "revenge" idea or "drug debt" was what was on everyone's minds when VS first disappeared... and i was always under the impression from TM's press conferences that she knew 'something' & thought that it would all get worked out (JMO!).

brighidin

04-14-2012, 06:28 PM

JMO if it happened, it was not TM that told anyone. JMO

(McDonald had moved into a house at Frances St. a week before. April 8 2009 was the first day Tori would be allowed to walk home alone from school.)

Thanks. I was looking for more detailed tweets but only found the LFP recaps. The part I bolded above doesn't mesh with Tori being allowed to walk home alone though. One sentence says "they" meaning Tori and her brother and the other says Tori alone. Frustrating!

I thought I read something before about her brother walking another kid home and then going back for Tori, which indicates to me that they were going to walk home together. I'll have to find that, unless any one else wants to do that. :D

crazyladi

04-14-2012, 06:29 PM

Why is there a publication ban on the one girl? When they had one for TLM it was because MTR had to have his day in court and they didnt want the information leaked. /is it possible this person is going through the courts for something else?

I just dont understand why its banned. What would be the reasoning?

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 06:30 PM

Who do you mean by "someone"? TM?
Why would "someone" tell TLM, a veritable stranger, save for two chance drug related meetings, that Tori was going to walk home alone?

Tori never walked home alone: her brother or grandma dealt with that. Besides, no one knew that she was going to be walking home alone since TM assumed her brother was going to walk with her, and he did go back to find her, it was just too late.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19472771.html
When she did not return home from Oliver Stephens school with her brother, mom and her family began a frantic and futile search before going to the police about 6 p.m.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/07/19474236.html
This was supposed to be the first time Tori and her brother were walking home from school alone.

No one knew Tori was going to walk home alone because she wasn't supposed to.

moo

Perhaps you're right. As I wrote, it was just a guess. But no one knows exactly where TM, JG, and TLM were every minute of that day or who all they talked to. Maybe we will know more when the ban on TLM's edited ASoF is lifted.

JMO

fats

04-14-2012, 06:30 PM

anything for a "piece" I guess....I don't call that misrepresentation...that's too big of a word for MR to know..... I would call that just plain lies to suit the situation....who knows...maybe he was constipated a lot and thought he had something major wrong with him.... still doesn't make him a murderer or rapist...I need more than that to convince me...:moo:

MR was lying is pervasive and IS deceptive. <modsnip>....He fits the description to a T. Further--he knew Victoria was MURDERED and IN GARBAGE bags, hid evidence, lied constantly in the OPP interview. He is deeply involved and I would not be surprised he is both a MURDERER and a RAPIST.:jail: imo <modsnip>!

matou

04-14-2012, 06:32 PM

If anyone told TLM anything about Tori walking home alone that day, then why was MR driving past the school at 9:05 that morning? He was trolling for a stray kid IMO. Sorry, the drug conspiracy thing just doesn't work. <Mod Snip> After throwing rocks on a dead child's body, he obsessed over her and tried to shag anything that moved. He's aK<Mod Snip>. He saw Tori dead. I think he raped and killed her. That's the motive: rape. In terms of drug involvement, he's a junkie just like TLM and has been since at least 2005, according to his 17-18 year old girlfriend from that time. JMO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:35 PM

Thanks. I was looking for more detailed tweets but only found the LFP recaps. The part I bolded above doesn't mesh with Tori being allowed to walk home alone though. One sentence says "they" meaning Tori and her brother and the other says Tori alone. Frustrating!

I thought I read something before about her brother walking another kid home and then going back for Tori, which indicates to me that they were going to walk home together. I'll have to find that, unless any one else wants to do that. :D

Just a link, I know

That day was the first time she had planned to make the short walk home alone from Oliver Stephens Public School. The petite blond-haired, blue-eyed girl never made it.

While her mom had waited anxiously for her to walk home alone from school for the very first time, Tori had been abducted and sexually assaulted. While her brother was riding around the neighbourhood desperately searching for her, her small ribs had been shattered, her liver lacerated by a claw hammer picked up that very afternoon at a Home Depot.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

dar107

04-14-2012, 06:40 PM

I am interested to know everyone's opinions on what will happen after the crown rests. Do you think that Derkstine will be calling witnesses, and presenting a case for MR?

Or do you think the defence will rest with only closing arguments, attacking the crowns case chapter by chapter, trying to create doubt in the jury that the crown has proved it's case beyond reasonable doubt?

I am very curious about this. Also IIRC, the time for Derkstine to make an opening statement would have been right after the Crowns opening, and he chose not too. Am i just confused about this, as it seems more logical that Defence would make their opening after the crown rests? Any input on this would be appreciated!

BBM Actually, i think I am wrong here. Procedure would be for defence to make OS after the crown rests. Example:

"In a criminal trial, the Crown begins first and usually provides the jury with an opening statement that summarizes the facts it says will establish its case. It also provides the jury with a summary of evidence it is expected to lead.

Then it begins calling witnesses.

When it finishes its case, the defence then has the option of making an opening statement and calling witnesses."

fats

04-14-2012, 06:43 PM

IMO

I must add.............

That I have incredible difficulty trying to understand why MR acted the way he did "after" the crime was committed..........if he had no knowledge it was going to happen.

His conduct following..............is just not explainable, to me.

I could not imagine someone so uncaring, self centered, and morally corrupt that they would hide the evidence and pretend it all didn't happen.

The only explanation I can think of..........is that he has severe disorders himself and his brain is fried from drugs.

That isn't an excuse for his conduct..........but it is all I can think of..........

Even then it is a big stretch.

IMO

That he wouldn't get caught? And that TLM would continue to take the fall?

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 06:44 PM

I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

bbm, me too

fats

04-14-2012, 06:47 PM

I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

That's because you are just a craziladi and NOT a < mod snip > like MR is! Impossible to apply normal reasoning to his actions because he did not behave like a normal person. Normal people do not leave town with other people's children in their car, take them to remote locations and get involved in murder and coverup to murder!

snoofer

04-14-2012, 06:51 PM

:moo::moo::moo:
I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

Maybe in his life noone ever challenged him on his <modsnip> and they got him out of tight spots before so he just continued and believed that others just believe his lies.

crazyladi

04-14-2012, 06:52 PM

So how does this work. The crown calls their witnesses, then the defense?

thank you for posting that...I was searching like crazy trying to find it..as I mentioned last evening I started following this case on the "Insessions" site and was pleased to see some of the posters on here now were also on that site with me...we certainly discussed this to no end at the start and followed closely the daily news report with TM & RS.... some things we did get wrong at first...always felt so sorry for RS...he has tried his best to keep Tori's name out there and hopefully open up people's eyes that no one can be trusted, especially when it comes to your children... be so careful of the company that you keep...I heap praise on him for that..:moo:

matou

04-14-2012, 06:58 PM

<modsnip>

After seeing a dead child and disposing of her body, he immediately moves on to hook up with as many women as possible. That's sexually deviant. He was obsessing over Tori, in my opinion. JMO

snoofer

04-14-2012, 06:58 PM

I think MTR should also receive a lifetime ban on owning a driver's license on the off chance he ever gets out as he used his vehicle in the current charges and he routinely operated a vehicle wired up on drugs. JMO

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 07:00 PM

<modsnip>

Flossie JMO, I'm sure Russell Williams's friends and wife didn't think he was a sexual deviant, and never gave any indications that he was, and yet he broke into almost 82 homes, rifles through pantie drawers, photographed himself in his victim's panties, broke into two of his victim's homes, tied them up and forced them to perform sexual acts, and photographed those acitivies, then he broke into two more homes, sexually tortured and killed two more women.

Just because because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't so. <modsnip>?

Macright

04-14-2012, 07:06 PM

I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

actually (and I am not trying to condone how he acted) what he did whether guilty or not guilty was something that I would expect...he went on with his life as if nothing was amiss...running away from Woodstock would throw more suspicion on him, I would think...instead he acted out all the normal things that were his way of life...the car seat is not an issue with me because I don't believe that was ever in the car at the time, I believe the neighbour who saw him remove it and move it to his shed in order to install speakers..it was thrown out long before the LE put out the warning that they were looking for a back seat..remember the pickup was in mid April and <modsnip> didn't confess until mid May so he had no reason to not thrown the seat out because no one was aware that he was involved at the time...so all the things that he did do were normal for him...he stayed in town and went on with his life...he asked the questions about TS because he more than likely thought that if he didn't someone would go.....huh...considering it was the talk of the town...he may have had his own reasons for questioning people but still no one caught on at that time.......:moo:

Macright

04-14-2012, 07:10 PM

Flossie JMO, I'm sure Russell Williams's friends and wife didn't think he was a sexual deviant, and never gave any indications that he was, and yet he broke into almost 82 homes, rifles through pantie drawers, photographed himself in his victim's panties, broke into two of his victim's homes, tied them up and forced them to perform sexual acts, and photographed those acitivies, then he broke into two more homes, sexually tortured and killed two more women.

Just because because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't so. <modsnip>?

the reason we know that RW was is because LE found the evidence when they conducted the searches...I am sure if LE searched the home of MR and found nothing then it stands to reason that he is not a sexual deviant as the likes of RW.....:moo: because nothing of that nature was ever found...

snoofer

04-14-2012, 07:10 PM

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

Macright

04-14-2012, 07:17 PM

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

thankfully we don't have the death penalty here in Canada...life in prison would do for me for some of these murderers...:moo:

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 07:19 PM

I personally don't think the crown is too interested in MR being on the phone during the time he spent with his dates...and I don't think they are interested in any of the lies that he told these women about his type of employment...that info adds nothing to the evidence and would be a waste of taxpayers money and of course court time........I am sure they know that he was a drug user/dealer...the same goes for the number of women that he dated in his lifetime...I think the only reason these women were paraded into court was to show that he had no remorse for TS as he continued on with his love life...:moo:

MTR's lies and other activities show his character and honesty and narcissism. This establishes that he is capable of committing a crime.:moo:

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 07:20 PM

After seeing a dead child and disposing of her body, he immediately moves on to hook up with as many women as possible. That's sexually deviant. He was obsessing over Tori, in my opinion. JMO

thanks for responding and posting your opinion, I wasn't sure what you meant and it's clear now, thanks

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 07:24 PM

I am going to tell you one thing.

If I was ever in MTR's so called position that his lawyer has put him in and I saw this horrific act upon a child I can tell you one thing I would have fled Woodstock, I would never have even posted anything regarding that child, I would never have thrown out the car seat, I would never have dated anyone, I would never have been asking anyone about what happened to her.

So the question is why did he do all these things? I cant understand it. He was so calm and collected when he was being interviewed its crazy. I would have been shi@ing my pants.

It just doesnt seem to add up to someone who is not guilty. I really wish he would take the stand.

Exactly. His behaviour points to guilt.:moo: This is why all his activity is important. Why else do you think the Crown brought in all these women he dated. It showed his attitude and lack of remorse. His behaviour is not normal for the situation.:moo:

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 07:24 PM

Flossie JMO, I'm sure Russell Williams's friends and wife didn't think he was a sexual deviant, and never gave any indications that he was, and yet he broke into almost 82 homes, rifles through pantie drawers, photographed himself in his victim's panties, broke into two of his victim's homes, tied them up and forced them to perform sexual acts, and photographed those acitivies, then he broke into two more homes, sexually tortured and killed two more women.

Just because because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't so. <modsnip>?

I agree we have evidence now on Russell Williams. Totally agree. And because we don't have evidence doesn't mean it isn't so.

However, my point was we do not have that on MR. We might eventually, I just don't know if we will, or if it is so. JMO

Flossie JMO

04-14-2012, 07:25 PM

MTR's lies and other activities show his character and honesty and narcissism. This establishes that he is capable of committing a crime.:moo:

JMO most adults are capable of committing a crime. I'm not going to speak of children, is off topic.

Hello_Kitty

04-14-2012, 07:35 PM

the reason we know that RW was is because LE found the evidence when they conducted the searches...I am sure if LE searched the home of MR and found nothing then it stands to reason that he is not a sexual deviant as the likes of RW.....:moo:because nothing of that nature was ever found...

That's true.

Salem

04-14-2012, 07:40 PM

RBBM
JMO it may well have been for sexual purposes, we don't know yet, and sexual purposes by TLM or MR, or both, is also not known IMO. I am very interested in what the defence will put forward, and if drugs are a part of it. JMO

Actually - I don't have the same doubts you do. I have been reading the tweets and articles, etc. and I feel differently. I think we do know, depending on how we put the pieces of the puzzle together. We also know there is no smoking gun here. Just the results of a painstaking investigation with many pieces of evidence that tend to either prove or disprove the propositions put forth.

For example, I believe that the drop of Tori's blood with the sperm cells in it tends to prove rape (actually even though the defense will try to blow holes in this, I think this is a smoking gun) and I believe that the missing clothing on Tori's body tends to prove rape.

TLM's statement of the "rustling garbage bags" rings more true to me than her statement of "I savagely killed" which just does not sound like the way a person would talk when describing their actions.

So... I am sure the members of the jury are also looking at this information and that the individual members are processing it differently also. It will be through their deliberations that the outcome is determined.

Salem

Heliotrope

04-14-2012, 07:41 PM

I agree...some lean a little more to the left or the right...some become too personal and attached....:moo:

I imagine it would be a mistake to lean too far either way - one would be just as likely to fall down leaning too far in the opposite direction, abandoning instinct and intuition completely.

Instinct and intuition save a lot of lives - I always tell my son to listen to his 'spider sense'. In this case, my spider sense is tingling. The crown saw fit to detain this creature for nearly 3 years based on an educated consideration of the evidence; I think their spider sense is tingling too.

I don't find there's a witch hunt mentality here, crowds waving tiny virtual torches and pitchforks - I find people reacting normally to an abnormal situation, being disturbed by disturbing stories and feeling repelled by repulsive people. I find it comforting to come here and listen to others have the same reactions as me - I'm a chronic lurker actually, so a big thank you to everyone else for getting it all out there.

Even the famous detective was affected by emotion and had to compose himself on the stand, as I recall... and he's a proven giant-killer, God love him. [Disclosure - I am 'too personal and attached' to Detective Staff Sergeant Smyth.]

sillybilly

04-14-2012, 08:02 PM

I respectfully beg to differ, Billy. Maybe hair would have come off easily, but if TLM is to be believed, there should have been DNA from saliva, tears, and nose secretions. Even if Tori didn't cry, I doubt that minute particles of saliva could have escaped being deposited after such a long time.

I believe we've already had a post or two about how difficult it is to completely remove DNA. Also, had the coat been dry cleaned, there would have been evidence of dry cleaning fluid found in the lab exams and nothing was raised in testimony to indicate this.

JMO

How dare you differ AG ;) JK

I suppose we'll never really know the minute detail of her position, but for some reason, i've always felt that Tori would have been lying either on her side or face down on the back seat, in which case saliva, tears and nose secretions would have been on the back seat, but not necessarily on a coat that was covering her.

matou

04-14-2012, 08:06 PM

The 40 year old who testified two days ago is the one who was said to be in a 'helping position' and her name is under publication ban. She was 37 at the time.

Within four days of the little girl’s death, Mr. Rafferty was starting a relationship with a 37-year-old woman and two days after that, with another woman, then 28.
The first woman, whose identity is protected by a publication ban, works in what can loosely be described as a helping profession.

Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

Tori's Law - almost 62,000 signatures :)

http://www.petitiononline.com/vict888/petition.html

~n/t~

04-14-2012, 08:22 PM

A child should be free to walk alone or with friends anywhere at anytime without fear of being kidnapped, raped and murdered. Period.

antiquegirl

04-14-2012, 08:46 PM

So there are 2 women whose names are covered under a ban???? If the one from friday was not described at all how would we have any knowledge of her age?????

Yes, two different women. Apparently her age was not covered by the ban.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

Next witness is a 28 year old woman from Woodstock.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

She met Rafferty through Plenty of Fish. They eventually met for coffee. Near the end of March, 2009.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply

The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru Plenty of Fish at the end of March 2009

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply

The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class

HTH

Kamille

04-14-2012, 08:49 PM

RBBM

Actually - I don't have the same doubts you do. I have been reading the tweets and articles, etc. and I feel differently. I think we do know, depending on how we put the pieces of the puzzle together. We also know there is no smoking gun here. Just the results of a painstaking investigation with many pieces of evidence that tend to either prove or disprove the propositions put forth.

For example, I believe that the drop of Tori's blood with the sperm cells in it tends to prove rape (actually even though the defense will try to blow holes in this, I think this is a smoking gun) and I believe that the missing clothing on Tori's body tends to prove rape.

TLM's statement of the "rustling garbage bags" rings more true to me than her statement of "I savagely killed" which just does not sound like the way a person would talk when describing their actions.

So... I am sure the members of the jury are also looking at this information and that the individual members are processing it differently also. It will be through their deliberations that the outcome is determined.

Salem

Yes Salem, when I look at the picture of where the spot was on the frame of the car, I can see how easily it would have been for a drop of blood to have dripped from Victoria when she was removed from the car to go for her "washroom break". That spot is right on the frame beside the rear passenger seat where the assault was said to have taken place. And when the door was closed, likely more of the blood drop transferred to the rubber moulding were it likely would have adhered better.

http://i39.tinypic.com/ae6v40.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2z5txt5.jpg

And we have been told that blood spot was Victoria's blood containing an unknown sperm cell. How that can be fluffed over is beyond me. :waitasec:

MOO

Tahorn

04-14-2012, 08:50 PM

<modsnip>

I am sorry, that came out all wrong. I was just wondering if TLM found out that VS was going to be walking alone by a casual comment made someone who knew them both. After all VS really wasn't alone, plenty of others were around, school mates and other parents and TLM did not seemed concerned about anyone else as she was walking away with a child she wasn't suppose to know.

And believe me I agree that a child should feel safe at all times and this should never had happen ... But it did and the only way to stop it from happening again is through knowledge of how this happened in the first place.

flipflop

04-14-2012, 09:04 PM

Yes, two different women. Apparently her age was not covered by the ban.

HTH

The one from friday is the one that works at Staples.
The one from thursday...her job is under the ban as well.

I did not realize that 2 were under the ban, thanks for clearing that up.

Kamille

04-14-2012, 09:14 PM

That also occurred to me, but that's no reason to keep her name secret. Publication bans have a reason; they're not there to avoid embarrassment.

Actually a witness can put in a written application to the judge for a publication ban on their name. And likely the two women who did had legal advice to do so. Probably for no other reason than not wanting their names dragged into this mess. Perhaps to them it is an embarrasment and they have reason to believe that it would cause them some hardship, in their personal and/or professional lives, to have their names publicized.

How does a victim or witness get a judge to
consider making a publication ban?

The Criminal Code sets out the steps for seeking out a
publication ban:

• The victim or witness must make an application or
request for a publication ban in writing. It is essential
for the victim or witnesses to indicate why he/she
needs this type of protection.

• The victim or witness makes the application to the
judge who will be hearing the case. If a judge has not
yet been assigned to the case, the victim or witness
may make the request to any superior court judge in
the jurisdiction.

• The Crown prosecutor, the accused and any other
person that may be affected by the publication ban
must be notified about the application. The judge will
decide whether the notice should be provided to the
media or others that may be affected. For example,
local newspapers would need to know, because a
publication ban would restrict how they report on the
trial or proceedings.

• The judge may hold a hearing to consider the request
for the publication ban. At the hearing, the victim or
witness has an opportunity to say why the order is
necessary for him or her. The Crown prosecutor, the
accused, the media or other parties who are affected
by the order may also speak.

http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/J2-288-1999E.pdf

Flowercb

04-14-2012, 09:34 PM

That also occurred to me, but that's no reason to keep her name secret. Publication bans have a reason; they're not there to avoid embarrassment.

Why are publication bans in place? Is it at the womens request? Are they allowed privacy during a murder investigation?

JayFriend

04-14-2012, 09:38 PM

Actually a witness can put in a written application to the judge for a publication ban on their name. And likely the two women who did had legal advice to do so. Probably for no other reason than not wanting their names dragged into this mess. Perhaps to them it is an embarrasment and they have reason to believe that it would cause them some hardship, in their personal and/or professional lives, to have their names publicized.

How does a victim or witness get a judge to
consider making a publication ban?

The Criminal Code sets out the steps for seeking out a
publication ban:

<snip>

Now, that I can understand! I can see where a woman in a position of respect and authority in a company would never be able to function if it were known she was snagged by Rafferty on POF, especially if she were married.

One more question: When a witness's name and profession are under a publication ban, do those present in the courtroom know and are cautioned not to reveal it to anyone, or does the witness testify anonymously? I would think the latter would be unfair to the accused.

Kamille

04-14-2012, 10:22 PM

Now, that I can understand! I can see where a woman in a position of respect and authority in a company would never be able to function if it were known she was snagged by Rafferty on POF, especially if she were married.

One more question: When a witness's name and profession are under a publication ban, do those present in the courtroom know and are cautioned not to reveal it to anyone, or does the witness testify anonymously? I would think the latter would be unfair to the accused.

This is strictly a publication ban. The witness' name and profession would be required to be entered into the actual legal proceedings I believe. So yes, those who are present would likely have this information but really what are they going to do with it? They may tell friends but it is unlikely that it will get much further. So I suppose there is a possibility that the name may get out to someone who knows the witness personally or professionally but it is much less likely than if it was put into print in the media.

MOO

Salem

04-14-2012, 10:25 PM

(snipped except for this item)

This is the one who was described by reporters to be in a "helping profession", rather vague and mysterious. One reporter described her as being highly educated and very professional with her answers. She's the only one who's name was withheld in the press. I'm very curious. Did the public in the courtroom hear her name and profession? Can you give us any better clues? What kind of "helping profession"? A civilian informant? Undercover cop trolling POF for perverts?

This particular witness is under a publication ban. Sleuthing of her/them is OFF LIMITS for this board. WS supports Canada's efforts to bring those responsible for Tori's murder to justice and we respect their publication bans.

If you have questions, please pm a moderator.

Thanks,

Salem

fats

04-14-2012, 10:29 PM

thankfully we don't have the death penalty here in Canada...life in prison would do for me for some of these murderers...:moo:

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

maxfactor

04-14-2012, 10:59 PM

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

matou

04-14-2012, 11:00 PM

Does a publication like that protect the woman who testified from anyone posting her name on facebook or twitter too? JMO

brighidin

04-14-2012, 11:11 PM

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

I don't think protective custody is necessarily special treatment, beyond the fact that they are segregated. This is an old article, but it describes the wing where Bernardo, Williams and other sex killers are housed at Kingston.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

brighidin

04-14-2012, 11:17 PM

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

I couldn't support the reinstatement of the death penalty, although I can understand why parents of murdered children would.
Interesting editorial on it, and not totally off topic, since it references TLM and MR:
http://www.emcalmontecarletonplace.ca/20120322/news/Urge+to+kill%3F+Yes.+Right+to+kill%3F+No

BorgQueen

04-14-2012, 11:21 PM

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

I'd like to see them do away with PC, too. Also, all these darn gyms and pools and other fancy fun recreation that many people who are not, and never will be, in jail could never afford. Why is it that they have the rights to gyms, pools, university-level education, etc, when we law-abiding citizens do not have the right to? :maddening:

I don't particularly agree with the death penalty. They are not being punished that way. They do not have to suffer consequences that way. They are killed and that is the end of it. Easy way out, and many inmates could possibly prefer that than sitting in a small cell with their toilet hole next to their bed.
Just take away all their privileges. Stick them in a small cell with a metal bed, a toilet, and a sink. Provide them with bread and water 3x a day, maybe some corn on weekends. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions. JMO. :moo:

ETA: quote from link posted above (will repost link after quote)
"Know what?" I said to my guide. "I would rather take a needle in the arm than live like that."

"Just be thankful," said my guide, "that we no longer have capital punishment in this country."
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

Pretty much sums it up...

nettie_82

04-14-2012, 11:31 PM

I'd like to see them do away with PC, too. Also, all these darn gyms and pools and other fancy fun recreation that many people who are not, and never will be, in jail could never afford. Why is it that they have the rights to gyms, pools, university-level education, etc, when we law-abiding citizens do not have the right to? :maddening:

I don't particularly agree with the death penalty. They are not being punished that way. They do not have to suffer consequences that way. They are killed and that is the end of it. Easy way out, and many inmates could possibly prefer that than sitting in a small cell with their toilet hole next to their bed.
Just take away all their privileges. Stick them in a small cell with a metal bed, a toilet, and a sink. Provide them with bread and water 3x a day, maybe some corn on weekends. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions. JMO. :moo:

ETA: quote from link posted above (will repost link after quote)
"Know what?" I said to my guide. "I would rather take a needle in the arm than live like that."

"Just be thankful," said my guide, "that we no longer have capital punishment in this country."
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

Pretty much sums it up...

BBM

I totally agree with you and just to add, jails should be self sufficient. Make the criminals work for the food they eat instead of the taxpayers feeding them.