I might be over simplifying it but it is gang mentality whereby two or more people working in concert have no conscous whereas any individual of the group has a conscious. Kids gang up and bully individuals in a group but any single part of that gang isn't likely to bully the individual. There are probably other terms for the dynamic but that's my best recollection of it.

That sounds like mob mentality or groupthink, actually (or, honestly, peer pressure). They're psychological phenomena which involve a person going along with the group's decisions rather than what they themselves would decide alone. It's because humans are social by nature.

Well, if you want to talk about "corporate evil", what about the relationship religious theists have with their gods? Even you, Wayne, have stated that you do things because your god apparently wants you to, whether or not you intended to. In other words, you're subsuming your will and replacing it with your conception of "godwill", your willingness and desire to do what your god supposedly wants. If "godwill" conflicts with your conscience, your conscience loses, because you're doing what you think your god wants, and it doesn't matter whether you think it's right or wrong.

Someone here just challenged me to keep an open mind, to resist confirmation bias. Your very name on this forum says to me that you've made up your mind and no quantity, frequency or magnatude of supernatural intervention is going to penetrate that.

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless. The corporate fallacy here is evident because I'm the only one that will tell you that your thinking is purposefully unreasonable, because the others here have lost their conscious to the group.

To trust your objectivity you would have to change your name, otherwise why should I trust you are being fair?

No offense, Wayne, but it seems like you have a really strange idea of what confirmation bias means, and it's leading you to make some really poor judgment calls. We've had Christians come here with handles such as "Godexists" and "G0dLovesUs"- are those example of confirmation bias too? I doubt you'll think so, because you're already convinced that they're true.

Confirmation bias is not when someone has a belief that they act on, or even when they're hard to convince. It's when someone refuses to consider to any argument that contradicts their belief, always interprets situations and evidence to support that belief even if there's a better explanation for it, considers their belief to be so 'right' that other people must be 'stupid' or 'evil' if they don't agree, and expects others to jump through unreasonable hoops to prove otherwise. That's how you've been acting, Wayne, pretty much through this entire thread.

Here's an example of how your confirmation bias leads you to make poor judgment calls. You came in here utterly convinced that your many episodes represented supernatural interventions by your gods, even though there were alternate/better explanations for those episodes, and have subsequently refused to even consider that they might not be. This, despite the fact that you demand that people who are skeptical of your interpretations must mentally go through those episodes (because you believe they're so self-evident that they'll convince anyone who undergoes them), and then when people did do that, you added more hurdles that they had to go over in order to be "open-minded".

Now you're making accusations that we're some hivemind where every member of the WWGHA website has subsumed their consciences to a "corporate evil", even though a number of the people here have bent over backwards to be reasonable to you, to listen to you, to consider what you've been saying, and so on. If we were actually like that, all of the members would be like bertaberts and his ilk. Indeed, this is one of the more fractious communities I've yet seen, and there's plenty of disagreement amongst members about various things.

Someone here just challenged me to keep an open mind, to resist confirmation bias. Your very name on this forum says to me that you've made up your mind and no quantity, frequency or magnatude of supernatural intervention is going to penetrate that.

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless. The corporate fallacy here is evident because I'm the only one that will tell you that your thinking is purposefully unreasonable, because the others here have lost their conscious to the group.

To trust your objectivity you would have to change your name, otherwise why should I trust you are being fair?

You are really talking nonsense, Wayne. the name of the forum invites people to suggests why god won't heal amputees. That is not a presumption of anything - it is a question based on a well-known fact. Even if there are a few stubborn people here who won't consider any other view point, most people here are only to keen to review evidence and to change their minds on the basis of good evidence.

No, Wayne, it is you who are being stubborn and not the rest of the forum. You are the one who have brought stories to us which you claim are premonitions when, in fact, they appear to be just con-incidents - the original parts do not predict anything at all until you link them with another event later. Of course people here are dubious about the links and I imagine this isn't the first forum to sound dubious either. To be evidence of your god, the events needs to be actual predictions and carry no other possible cause. Imagine that when you were driving back from the cinema the date of the cinema shooting came into your head and you wrote it down with the word shooting. Now that would be tough to explain other than by divine intervention but your actual story has a few similar things in it and nothing specific.

Now, will you read and comment on my story that I posted a page or so back which appears to be very like your stories? Do you think this is a god talking to me and warning me of impending ill health?

Quote

A long time ago, when I was 11 years old I had to go into hospital to be circumcised (in the UK this isn't a standard thing done to babies.) Whilst recovering I and another lad of about the same age came across a wheelchair in a room at the end of the ward and had fun for a while playing in it. We both thought it rather fun and,of course, ward floors were easy to push on. I forgot it completely until just recently.....

Roll on 23 years (about the same time as Wayne's dark Knight story) I found myself at the same hospital, though in outpatients, being diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis and 3 days later, you guessed it, I actually needed a wheelchair, my sole means of getting around ever since.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 09:50:15 AM by wheels5894 »

Logged

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I have printed out a few of your stories, directly from the links you provided. And I excerpted the meteorite story from one of your recent posts. I am taking them to two different christian friends Anyway I'm hoping they will read the stories and give me some feedback from a believers perspective. I'll give you a full report tomorrow after I get home. It will be late in the day.(one is mormon)

That's kind of you. I do hope you gave the mormon the one about the primary rock. That is so so cool.

I guess I will never get used to responses of my episodes as normal things that happen to everybody. I don't think that is a reasoned response. I think that response is addled with atheist confirmtion bias. There is nothing normal about being directed to bring a rock to church. There is nothing normal about it, and an honest person could admit that. However, confirmation bias can alter a persons ability for honesty, and that is what I suspect, in my reasoned evaluation.

Are you not clear on the concept. Most of us here are atheists. There is no god. Which makes intervention on his part a bit difficult. Since he doesn't exist, he's kind of helpless, if you get my drift.

Your assertion is what we are evaluating. I do understand. I'm putting forth the evidence you need to free you from that false notion. I'm not done yet but what you are likely to get more of is tha same testamony of intervention.

That asteroid story doesn't stand alone well without my history as a support. I'm gettin to like the meteorite asteroid thing a little better as it kind of soaks in. I want you to notice that I didn't report it when it happened, but the more I thought about the uncanny timing with the couple who I had just exposed to my writing for the first time in almost two years of chit chat, that the four meetings in a row, introduced my prophetic writing, discussed it, saw the meteorite, then they told me of it's fulfillment. Bam bam bam bam.

It's sinking in pretty deep.

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

A long time ago, when I was 11 years old I had to go into hospital to be circumcised (in the UK this isn't a standard thing done to babies.) Whilst recovering I and another lad of about the same age came across a wheelchair in a room at the end of the ward and had fun for a while playing in it. We both thought it rather fun and,of course, ward floors were easy to push on. I forgot it completely until just recently.....

Roll on 23 years (about the same time as Wayne's dark Knight story) I found myself at the same hospital, though in outpatients, being diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis and 3 days later, you guessed it, I actually needed a wheelchair, my sole means of getting around ever since.

That is very perplexing. It's as though a happy occasion portended something rather grave and depressing. Our lives here on earth are so uncertain, and that is even true for me. I can't imagine what the result of those circumstances must have done to discourage you. I was on crutches from a sever back problem that I did recover from in time but in the middle of the issue I had a mix of what I would call demonic attacks that I can only figure were there to try to destroy my faith in the goodness of God. Stories of faithful believers that live with lifelong disabilities I think helped me to see my circumstance in perspective, and having sought God specifically for a resolution to my dilemma didn't I think in any way speed my recovery, however, I was met with graces along the way that assured me in my darkest of hours that I wasn't forgotten. I had to imagine my life of poverty and dependence and that imagination drove me closer to God. I would not trade those most desperate times in my life now for anything. I look back at them as a turningpoint in my faith and devotion. That I suppose could have been God's intention for me.

In one of my stories the actor I met named Richard Kiel turned out to be a devoted Christian. I looked him up recently and discovered that he is now confined to a wheelchair for a nerve disorder probably related to the fact that he is a Giant. He says he can't stand up because the condition gives him the balance of a toddler. He's still doing voice-overs but it seems that being a Christian doesn't guarantee good health, just the presence and guidance of a heavenly father and salvation for our eternal souls. CS Lewis said, You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body. I'll add, that it is a corruptible body that we need not be confined to for eternity, for we are promised an glorified body at his resurrection, those of us who depend on him for salvation.

I'm so sorry for your condition and that premonition, I do think, meant something.

During my most crippling bout with my back I hobbled my way to my truck and went on an errand. I was resisting the thought that I would need crutches, but realised that walking without a wall to help support me was nearing impossible. Not crutches! I thought. Then, while driving I stopped at a light and a pickup pulled up next to me, and sticking out of the bed of his truck, almost close enough for me to reach were a pair of crutches. I was saying NO!... God was saying, uh.... Yes. That was a moment mixed with both agony, depression and wonder. I didn't know if life as I knew it was over, but I did know that I wasn't alone.

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

A long time ago, when I was 11 years old I had to go into hospital to be circumcised (in the UK this isn't a standard thing done to babies.) Whilst recovering I and another lad of about the same age came across a wheelchair in a room at the end of the ward and had fun for a while playing in it. We both thought it rather fun and,of course, ward floors were easy to push on. I forgot it completely until just recently.....

Roll on 23 years (about the same time as Wayne's dark Knight story) I found myself at the same hospital, though in outpatients, being diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis and 3 days later, you guessed it, I actually needed a wheelchair, my sole means of getting around ever since.

That is very perplexing. It's as though a happy occasion portended something rather grave and depressing.

Wooosh! Went straight over your head didn't it.

Logged

We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Someone here just challenged me to keep an open mind, to resist confirmation bias. Your very name on this forum says to me that you've made up your mind and no quantity, frequency or magnatude of supernatural intervention is going to penetrate that.

All your examples simply dismiss any acknowledgement of God's intervention regardless. The corporate fallacy here is evident because I'm the only one that will tell you that your thinking is purposefully unreasonable, because the others here have lost their conscious to the group.

To trust your objectivity you would have to change your name, otherwise why should I trust you are being fair?

You seem upset because I don't accept your stories as evidence of god, ie a supernatural being. You have also taken issue with my screen name, as if I really do see the evidence of the supernatural all the time but because my mind is somehow closed to god, I refuse to acknowledge it.

That is clearly not the case. I am surrounded by religious people, including my husband, who believe in the supernatural. I used to believe in the supernatural myself. I grew up in a highly religious home, and knew nothing but conservative Christianity. When I started to learn about the world and questioned what I had been taught, religion and gods gradually stopped being good explanations. I went new age for a while ("there are no coincidences, everything happens for a reason," etc.) but gave up that for rational thinking.

I have heard of many strange things, and experienced strange things in my own life, things that might be evidence of the supernatural. But after more than 50 years of life on this earth, I am more inclined to believe I made a mistake or someone imagined something that really was not there. Why would I assume that an unusual event was caused by a magical being if everyday explanations will suffice? Religion gives really bad answers to good questions.

Did you look at my descriptions of the difference between strange or unusual versus supernatural? I am telling you that your rock story is not supernatural, and therefore can not be evidence for the existence of your god. People pick up rocks all the time, for no reason at all! Sometimes the rock they picked up comes in handy later. That is called a coincidence.

You say the Holy Spirit was guiding you to pick up that rock, but who really knows why you decided to pick it up? You have admitted that the rock was not even a random anonymous rock, but one that was connected to you by your daughter putting it there. Maybe that is why you picked it up, unconsciously connecting the rock with your kid.

If something could have happened without a magical supernatural force, why add a magical supernatural being to the story? If the rock had flown up off the ground into your hand, you might have a hard time getting people to believe it really happened, but at least you could categorize it as supernatural. Because rocks never do that on their own. But you picked up the rock yourself and put it in your pocket, not your god.

The other part is that you can't prove that the supernatural force (if it indeed was one) was actually from your god. You just think it was, because that is the god you already believe in. If you believed in Eshu, you would think Eshu influenced you. And you would have no more evidence for Eshu than you have for the god you believe in.

I picked my screen name because, so far, nobody has yet given me sufficient reason to believe in any gods. You are on track for helping me keep calling myself nogodsforme. Thanks.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I planned to take a few of Wayne's stories to a couple of friends who are believers. And I did.

Before giving them the stories (one person at a time) I said simply "I am talking about religion with a guy on the Internet and these are some of the stories he is telling me. What is your reaction, as a believer, to these?"

I printed out Wayne's stories on the gas/Batman/Aurora premonition and his 007 stories. And I cut and pasted his asteroid/meteorite/DVD story from an earlier post.

The first person, an 85 year old woman who has been going to the same church since she was three, read each one carefully. Then she looked up at me and said "These are just way too farfetched. And they don't seem relevant. My cousin Laura had a premonition that something was really wrong with her mom, and called her up, very scared. Her mom told Laura that she felt fine. That night Aunt Sadie died in her sleep. That was a premonition in my book. But I also kind of think that Laura managed to worry her mom to death. The woman was 90 and was taking medicine for her heart condition. Having her daughter call up all panicky probably didn't help. But how a gas leak in a theatre, or a gas leak in a truck. way back in 1989, related to that horrible theatre shooting last year I don't know. None of this sounds christian, or at least none of these stories feel relevant to my beliefs." (I made notes as she talked. I may not have the exact wording but I captured her meaning here.)

The second woman, a lifelong mormon, dutifully read the first one and looked up, giving me a strange look. She read the 007 story. She shook her head. She read the asteroid thing. The she looked up and said "I don't think so."

Those words are exact. I asked her to elaborate (again, I'm paraphrasing, as accurately as I can) "I've had premonitions, and know people who said that they've had premonitions. But they were, like, related to things in real life. Mine have applied to my life directly. Good feelings about a job I had applied for and then got. Stuff like that. This theatre thing is especially crazy. All I see there is a few coincidences that this guy thinks mean something. I don't see how. And only after it happened. Same with the meteorite thing. And the James Bond stuff? Nope. None of these are premonitions in my book."

I asked her about the Jame Bond coincidences. She said "Bob, my phone number ends with the same four numbers as my social security number. Stuff like that happens. It doesn't mean that the Social Security Administration is going to come along and pay my phone bill. At least they haven't yet."

That's all I'm willing to put my friends through. But I'm satisfied that I'm not the only one who questions the veracity of Wayne's interpretations.

So we atheists aren't the only ones who doubt the stories.

Logged

Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

There is a bigger picture, to be fair, with the asteroid thing. And as I have been saying, two incidences does not a convincing case make. Of course I'd like them to have seen "Cold Eggs At Paul's as well. I do wish you would have told her the one about the primary rock. That one's really great.

I'd worry I suppose about your having gotten less than positive reactions if I was being evaluated for my ability to write fiction eloquently, but the fact of the matter is, I'm only a reporter, it's God's business whether or not anyone believes it. There is great comfort in knowing it's all true.

I'm rounding the whole thing up in a ten page document, and when I'm satisfied with it, I'll post it. Then it won't be so piecemeal. If it doesn't cost you too much in paper and ink, I'd love for your friends to have a copy, particularly the LDS lady, and ofcourse if they have computers, the link.

Thanks for your efforts though.

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

Or is the bad back an example of some of "YOUR" suffering in exchange for God's love?

There is a really bazaare thing about suffering and devotion. For those who draw closer to God in their suffering it can be glorious. It sounds contradictory but it is absolutely amazing. Experiences like mine have been recorded in the testamonies of many christians when it comes to suffering. That footsteps in the sand thing is dead on accurate.

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

Early on in this thread screwtape pointed out that one of my founders quotes' attributions was not substantiated from an original source. I want to be careful about that. It is easy to grab onto these faith promoting rumors as they come without researching them fully.

It came to my attention that the John Newton bum leg from a harpoon may is likely an exaggeration. His men threw a harpoon to him in another account to pull him in but not through his leg. Also, his song Amazing Grace may not have been written until later when he was established as a minister, not while listening to the hums of the slaves in the hold. His conversion had it's fits and starts through his life and is inspiring in its un-enhanced form, but I will not continue with a version that hasn't been drawn from an original source. If the moderators would like to put a marker in my original account, maybe in green, pointing to this retraction it would keep anyone else from using the exaggerated account.

Please accept my retraction on those details.

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

I found a longer earlier version of Paul Harvey's God made a Farmer on youtube. You may be interested what was edited out of the original for the Dodge version.

Dodge's commercial is here:

This one not only shows a church, but talks about a long drive to church, different graphics.

Logged

The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something. He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald I write because I've been given something to say.*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodesHave Wayne Committed, Win a Prize! (V

There is a really bazaare thing about suffering and devotion. For those who draw closer to God in their suffering it can be glorious.

"The Phuket Vegetarian Festival and its rituals are thought by many to bring good fortune to religious followers"

10 RULES FOR THE VEGETARIAN FESTIVAL

1. Cleanliness of bodies during the festival2. Clean kitchen utensils and to use them seperately from other who do not join the festival3. Wear white during the festival4. Behave physically and mentally5. No meat eating6. No sex7. No alcoholic drinks8. People at mourning period should not attend the festival9. Pragnant ladies should not watch any ritual10. Ladies with period should not attend the ritual

Well, Wayne, though there are connections in the two parts of my story, I do not think there is any meaning in linking the two together. I think this is the case because,

1. I have carefully chosen an event in the past and an event in the not-so-past with a similar motif. I didn't write anything down after the first incident and I never even thought about it until your stories arrived with us. If I scan my memory a bit harder I might be able to come up with another incident in hospital that gives an entirely different story.

2. Even if I had written down the original incident it has no predictive capacity and thus I would have to have chosen another incident that happened later to link with it based merely on the things in the original.

Think of medical diagnosis in which incidents are linked together to form a medical history. Now I am a volunteer patient at a local medical school and go in from time to time to be grilled by students learning to take medical history. now one of the problematic features of Multiple Sclerosis (MS) is the various different symptoms that can come and go. It might be weakness in a leg, problems with vision or many, many others. One afternoon a while ago, after I had given the students and account of the vents leading up to my diagnosis the doctor in charge started to dig a bit and that reminded me of my rather weak arms. I had experienced some difficulty carrying my new born daughter (8lbs) when we had enjoyed a walk in the local wood. I had though nothing about it but to a trained doctor that event links to the leg weakness and subsequent paralysis. In this case the doctor can link the events together, not because of the a common theme, but because of a common source - the MS disease process.

In the case of your stories, Wayne, and mine too the only thing linking them is our own choices if events to link and it is for this reason that I do not think they are real links.

Logged

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

We are bred to see patterns. We see them everywhere. And we create them. Each letter in this sentence is a pattern. Each word is a pattern. Sentences are patterns. You can eevn raed tihs snetnece wtih teh ltetres in teh worng oderr, because of patterns. If humans weren’t big into patterns, writing wouldn’t work.

We’re also big into patterns in our world. We have constructs, that are based on patterns. Our social order. Families are a pattern. Communities are a pattern. Highways are a pattern. Sometimes patterns are very specific, as in denominations of money. Other times they are more general, like in kitchens, which all look different but still have a stove, a fridge, a sink, etc. So patterns can be general, patterns can be more exacting.

Last week I found a silver dime in my pocket change. From 1961. I was born in 1951. Add ten (the value of a dime) and it becomes 1961. What are the odds? My VISA card ends with 61. My brother, who has emailed me twice today, is 61. Of course he and I email each other almost every day, but if I must, I will pay attention to only his age. Good thing this didn't happen last year. Or next.

I went to a birthday lunch last Wednesday from my friend George, who just turned 61. Of course, his birthday was on Monday, and Wednesday was the birthday of his girlfriend, who is 55. And we’ll ignore Ada, who I am stopping by to wish a happy birthday this afternoon. She’s 74. But she's a short little thing. Probably just over 5'. Which would probably make her about 61".

My desk lamp sitting next to me has a 60 watt bulb. But there is only one. So, 60 watts plus one bulb = 61.

Christmas was 61 days ago. My father bought the house he ended up dying in when he was 61. Add 61 to 1961 and you get 2022. Add those three 2’s and you get 6. Plus one number isn’t a 2, so you have 6 + that 1, which equals 61. My first car was a 57 Chevy, but it had 4 wheels, so add those two up an you get 61.

I could probably go on and on with this, getting as loose as I wanted to force more coincidences, but we humans do such things on a regular basis. We evolved to find patterns. We evolved because we found ways to make sense of the world and hence survive in it. But we don’t have any controls on our pattern-seeking tendencies. So some of us go off the deep end and find them in places they don’t actually exist.

That would be you.

You are not going to convince anyone here that you are on to something. You are not going to convince anyone here that you are seeing the truth in these events and numbers and sightings. Your premonitions, all noticed after the fact (You didn’t spend a quarter of a century calling theatre owners and warning them every time they showed a Batman movie), are merely patterns and/or actual coincidences that you prefer to label as wondrous. We atheists label them as nutty.

You might as well be trying to convince us that frogs fart in our cereal every morning. We would want proof of that too, and just like with your current claims, you couldn't prove that either.

By definition, we atheists require proof, not anecdotes. We require evidence, not memory-laden replays. We require some connection with reality and that things be plausible. We're funny about that.

There is no twain to meet there. We’re from two different planets. You are wasting out time, and we yours. About 61 times a day.

That was screwtape's point - that a god that loves everyone unconditionally is deeply disturbing. It means exactly what I've said here - that he loves the guys who raped you when you were a child just as much as he loves their victim.

I don't think people are born with evil, for lack of a better word, in them. They are made that way. That man probably suffered worse abuse that what I remember. Who knows what kind of horrible memories most of our criminals have suffered. That's why I keep going back to good parenting. That starving child in Africa did not have good parents, otherwise it would have had food. Then once you've had a "bad childhood" there is no real help out there and the mind well it goes crazy, especially if that mind loses it's ability to care, which belief in God does for a lot of victims of child abuse. When you can't find 1 person out of 2 billion that gives a crap about what happened to you it really helps to believe that the Creator of all mankind cares about your pain it feels better.

Why can't God love us the same but in the afterlife we will be judged accordingly. Not just some hell, but a much more intelligent, "sin" appropriate punishment, like reincarnation. I know much of this life has felt like punishment. lol. You can love someone even when they have done wrong, especially if that person is your child. That is the whole incentive for living a just life to ensure a peaceful afterlife.

{quote]Why did you use your love for your children as an example of unconditional love, then, if you agree that it is not in fact unconditional love?[/quote]

because i love my son unconditionally as i should. I'm sorry I do not understand what you mean I agree. What's not unconditional, my love for my son? I would NEVER agree to that. Or that God's love is not unconditional? I would not agree to that either.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 08:46:53 AM by junebug72 »

Logged

when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Just a quick jump in--imagine a double dutch jump rope game going on and I just jump in!

I have to object pretty strongly to one thing junebug said above. Children in famine situations do not starve due to "bad parenting".

(I assume we are not talking about some weirdo abusive parents who have enough food, but keep the children tied to a bed in the basement and don't feed them until they die of starvation.)

If we are talking about the starving African kids we see on the news and on fundraising letters from international charities, we are talking about widespread famine, not something a few adults in a family can do anything about. These kids die because, despite everything their desperate, also starving parents can do, they cannot get enough food to feed their kids.

Most often the main cause is warfare. Warfare takes normal farm families who know how to grow food, find water, raise animals and care for themselves, and turns them, within a few weeks, into homeless refugees. Now they have to flee their villages and towns, scrounge and scavenge for food and water, while walking miles carrying whatever they could grab when the men with guns showed up.

If they are lucky, they make it to a safe place where there are relief workers and food in time. If they are not lucky, they are caught and killed by the men with guns. Or they die of dehydration and starvation before they make it to the safe place.

If you can imagine all the things you would do to feed your children before watching them waste away and die before your eyes-- lie, cheat, steal, beg, pray, borrow, sell all you owned, prostitute yourself-- well, those African parents did all those things, too. Not bad parents at all. Just parents with no food for their kids and no way to get any.

BTW, no supernatural being has ever intervened and magically given food, medicine and shelter to refugee families to save their dying babies. And believe me, nobody is praying for help more sincerely than they are.

I don't think people are born with evil, for lack of a better word, in them. They are made that way......

Oh, I quite agree. But then you need to explain why it was that Adam and Eve sinned, and whether their punishment was just.

If they sinned because they were bad.....then (by your argument) they were made that way by Yahweh. So (again, by your argument) what they did was HIS fault.

Conversely, if they were good, but sinned inadvertently, then Yahweh's reaction was an extreme overreaction.....especially when you also insist that he loves everyone unconditionally.

You can't have it both ways, June - if people are the way they are because of the experiences that shape them, then the Fall becomes directly attributable to Yahweh, since EVERYTHING back them was exactly the way he wanted it to be. But if people are the way they are because they are created that way, then - again - all the blame lies squarely with Yahweh. Either way, someone who loves unconditionally would not have thrown such a paddy.

You say you love your son. Imagine that you tell him "don't eat those cookies I just baked". When you discover later that he ate them, he says "but Bobby told me I could!". Bobby, in this case, being a boy who just moved in next door, who you know - but that your son does not - is an inveterate liar. How severely would you punish your son in that case?

I'd be interested to see how you square the circle of the Fall with your assertions that "bad people are made", "Yahweh created everything", and "Yahweh loves everyone".

- - - - -

Actually, just remembered that you don't follow the traditional Christian religion. But of course you still haven't defined exactly what it is you DO believe, which makes it rather difficult to hold a conversation with you.

That starving child in Africa did not have good parents, otherwise it would have had food.

You should be disgusted with yourself, for saying that, I'm sure if your god existed he would be disgusted with you too. Be ashamed, please don't return here until you can apologize to all the parents who's children died through starvation that you have wronged in that statement. You disgust me.

Logged

We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

That was screwtape's point - that a god that loves everyone unconditionally is deeply disturbing. It means exactly what I've said here - that he loves the guys who raped you when you were a child just as much as he loves their victim.

I don't think people are born with evil, for lack of a better word, in them. They are made that way. That man probably suffered worse abuse that what I remember. Who knows what kind of horrible memories most of our criminals have suffered. That's why I keep going back to good parenting. That starving child in Africa did not have good parents, otherwise it would have had food. Then once you've had a "bad childhood" there is no real help out there and the mind well it goes crazy, especially if that mind loses it's ability to care, which belief in God does for a lot of victims of child abuse. When you can't find 1 person out of 2 billion that gives a crap about what happened to you it really helps to believe that the Creator of all mankind cares about your pain it feels better.

Why can't God love us the same but in the afterlife we will be judged accordingly. Not just some hell, but a much more intelligent, "sin" appropriate punishment, like reincarnation. I know much of this life has felt like punishment. lol. You can love someone even when they have done wrong, especially if that person is your child. That is the whole incentive for living a just life to ensure a peaceful afterlife.

Junebug I am almost certain that you have done something wrong that God can exclude you from heaven for. Even with your unfair and horrible past,you have wronged or disobeyed God in some manor that will exclude you from the after life,its just the way the "god" system works. The rules and regulations are so obscure and contradictory NOBODY can truly follow them......well there is only one Ned Flanders.....and he even screwed it up with pre-marital sex....oh and he,like all the Bible characters ....fictional

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

And isn't it amazing that Jesus always seems to have the same size feet as the person he's carrying.

Logged

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.