Hello world! We killed Halfus Wyrmbreaker 10hm yesterday for the first time. And I posted log at worldoflogs.http://worldoflogs.com/reports/5qmgrgvo ... 740&e=7075I tanked 3drakes and Whelps and our MT-bear tanked Halfus.And I use ShoR only 1 time for all fight. After that, I think, I can change my build to smth like that:http://wowtal.com/#k=-bxP1YgIn.aei.paladin.QJWWeand use seal of insight and insight glyph.40% of my self-heals was made by seal.What do you think about heavy self-heal-surv build for hard-modes. If we need aoe, we use aoe glyphs (HoR and Cons), if we need singl-target - we use CS and Focused Shield glyphs.

I think that taking Seals of the Pure in a heavy survival build seems pointless, since it doesn't affect Insight. Those points will serve you better in Grand Crusader or Sacred Duty (for that one SotR you cast, or for situations where you want the extra threat). Or even Hallowed Ground.

I know how much you like that 1 point in Hallowed Ground that gives you a peace of mind when using Consecration and I know how much you like the utility in Grand Crusade, which fills in those empty GCDs from our now broken Holy Power generation.

So, why not put two together and move that awkward point in Reckoning to one (just enough) point in Hallowed Ground for utility, peace of mind, and filling in empty GCDs?

I've never particularly liked Hallowed Ground. Consecration is only around 200 DPS or so. A point in Reckoning is between 200 and 250. I don't see much point in giving up 200-250 "free" DPS to take a talent that makes it easier to get 200 DPS that takes a GCD and (still) a chunk of mana. Of course it's an option for people that prefer to use Cons, but after playing with the new mechanics I'd rather just skip that GCD if I don't have the mana for Cons.

Lazeil's second tank spec is pretty clearly an AoE spec for specific fights, as he's also skipped a point in Sacred Duty. His primary spec is exactly the same as the WoG spec I'm running, with 1/2 Reck and 0/2 HG. I think that makes for a much better general-purpose tanking build.

I. The Protection CoreWith 4.0 comes a significant restructuring of the talent trees and an increased degree of flexibility in how we spend them. The first step in any build is to put 31 points in the Protection tree.

There are 12 talents (23 points) that I would consider "essential" to be a successful raiding paladin. That means you have 8 "discretionary" points to spend in less essential talents to unlock the rest of the protection tree, and 10 points you can spend in any tree.

If you're coming here and just want to know "is my spec decent?" check against this core.....if you have all the talents here your spec is probably fine, if you don't it probably needs some work.

Thanks. It looks like they got rid of the talent calculators on the armory, which is a shame. Anyone know of a good place where you can build "unpossible" specs? If not I'll just have to list the core talents individually, I guess.

I've been looking through a couple guide here and at EJ. The thing is I see EG and GbtL almost completely useless now in terms of usage. With the 20 second CD I'm seeing less and less of myself even bothering to cast WoG. The thing is if I use it, let's say, every 2 GCDs, it tends to make no difference. With the lack of EG double WoG procs I rarely see my HP high enough to be able to even utilize the GbtL shield. The added damage mitigation seems like a boost, but it usually only turns out to being 35-40k heals every 30 seconds. Which in a raiding and dungeon running situation, doesn't sound all that great. So I was experimenting with my spec and I ended up dropping a point from GbtL (I kept the 5% added heals just for emergencies). I also swited EG for SotP, in order to kind of aid in the SoT DoT power, making it slightly easier to utilize GCDs to throw up CDs and WoGs. The idea of using SoI when I have decent aggro hold sounds nice, but I end up running around with Frost DKs and Feral Druids who are heavy DoT classes and they end up blowing away my SoT, and so I have to end up switching back to SoT before I can truly utilize SoI. However, I tried out using my DivineProt in combiniation with Divine Plea, this helped to mitigate the decreased heals. Overall, I see barely any difference in survivability after switching out those couple points, and I seem to be struggling a little less with holding aggro against those heavy DoT classes. Also the 15% crit chance from RoL helps a bit if I ever do end up using WoG.

Curious why the "standard" WoG build uses 3/3 Rule of Law instead of a 2nd point in reckoning if reckoning's second point is still significantly more threat/dps than RoL. Unless you consider 5% chance to crit on WoG more important for (unreliable) survivability than 100+ dps. (people have spent thousands of gold in the past for 100pt dps increases).

If it was 0/32/9 it'd make more sense I think.

(And since I personally like Hallowed Ground, I don't even have 2 points in RoL, but obviously that isn't "standard" advice)

Prolly hasn't been updated yet. Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

The WoG glyph has also become less popular because of this, CS or hotr would be advisable.

Lolpaladins wrote:Curious why the "standard" WoG build uses 3/3 Rule of Law instead of a 2nd point in reckoning if reckoning's second point is still significantly more threat/dps than RoL. Unless you consider 5% chance to crit on WoG more important for (unreliable) survivability than 100+ dps. (people have spent thousands of gold in the past for 100pt dps increases).

You answered your own question: For most players, the extra survivability is more important than 100+ DPS. Vengeance makes threat trivial, so almost any reasonable threat->survivability trade is worth making.

Awyndel wrote:Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

I'm not sure where you get that impression, because it's certainly not true of many tanks clearing heroic modes.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Awyndel wrote:Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

The 2nd point is the important part.1 point only doesnt give WoG the absorb.WoG is not only used in panic at low hp, in fact most of the times i use it FOR its absorb, right before some big attack.That way its like reducing a big hit by about 30k, that means a lot, and will in effect also make the healers feel your not taking much damage, and wont waste mana on fast heals, as they would if they would see you go low fast, and sometimes start their heal even if youve had time to pop your WoG on you to heal, they will still have spent more mana than they would have had to.In 4.2 guarded by the light doesnt affect holy shield, meaning that its even less usefull, but still. If the absorb would be given even with only one point, id think about removing it in 4.2, but since it wont, 2 points will still be pretty important.

I only have one pont in WoG for the reason Awyndel mentioned. Treckie perfectly explained why 2/2 is great. But I stopped bothering with it once they added the 20 second cooldown. I used to be a WoG whore before that.

Sorry I just had that impression. I copied the spec from you actually theck, when the patch came out . It's all up to preference I guess. I like saving it for emergency heals, I have plenty of cd's to plan ahead with, from myself or other raid members.

Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on the new holy shield and its affect on using wog, will GbtL still be worth getting specially now with the 20 second cooldown it has? and what you would do with said points if you changed them.

Treck wrote:In 4.2 guarded by the light doesnt affect holy shield, meaning that its even less usefull, but still. If the absorb would be given even with only one point, id think about removing it in 4.2, but since it wont, 2 points will still be pretty important.

Aikanaro wrote:Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on the new holy shield and its affect on using wog, will GbtL still be worth getting specially now with the 20 second cooldown it has? and what you would do with said points if you changed them.

Almost definately worth 2/2 just to be safe initially in my opinion, at least for heroics, particularly when going in without Firelands HC gear. When learning new encounters in an instance that you're "undergeared" for on heroic (Firelands heroic gear is like 398 or something?) I think it's better to be more on the survival side while your healers and even the rest of your raid adapt to changes than it is to doing a couple hundred more dps. Maybe when getting closer to a kill on encounters where I don't really need the shield outside of very special circumstances (dead healers) I would remove the points from it in order to maximise dps - it's not like you're locked into a spec once you've respecced.

I guess the first spare point would go into Reckoning while the other would be best used in either JotP or Hallowed Ground (to make its mana cost more convenient).

Treck wrote:WoG is not only used in panic at low hp, in fact most of the times i use it FOR its absorb, right before some big attack.That way its like reducing a big hit by about 30k, that means a lot, and will in effect also make the healers feel your not taking much damage, and wont waste mana on fast heals, as they would if they would see you go low fast, and sometimes start their heal even if youve had time to pop your WoG on you to heal, they will still have spent more mana than they would have had to.

Agreed there. I sometimes use Divine Protection and GbtL in combination for huge attacks like Nefarian's electrocutes as preparation for when Guardian of Ancient Kings is on cooldown. It's an invaluable ability to have when you're familiar with encounters.

I'm trying to understand 2/2 GbtL. Overhealing turns into an absorb-bubble. At what point is the overhealing taking place? I thought maybe after 100% health, so WoGing at low HP wouldn't give a shield? But it looks like it does. I took 1 point out because I must have misunderstood, but I'll gladly take that 2nd point out of Reckoning to put back in GbtL. Please clarify.

agetro wrote:I'm trying to understand 2/2 GbtL. Overhealing turns into an absorb-bubble. At what point is the overhealing taking place? I thought maybe after 100% health, so WoGing at low HP wouldn't give a shield? But it looks like it does. I took 1 point out because I must have misunderstood, but I'll gladly take that 2nd point out of Reckoning to put back in GbtL. Please clarify.

The overhealing bubble only happens if you are at 100% health. If you are at full when you cast WoG you will get the full heal as a shield, if you are not at 100% and WoG brings you to full, any overhealing will be turned into a shield.