The gold or yellow trim and what it means beyond all the disinformation

I am sure you have heard all the dis-information about the yellow or gold tim on the flag not meaning anything but it ia all lies. I can prove it! I am sure you have heard the lawyers keep saying that it does not mean anything, but it is nothing but dis-information. I am sure you have heard the same for educators, this is a covert action to conceal the truth. And from scholars who claim the same, this is still how devious the court system has become.
Let us start out easy for those who claim that it means nothing. Section 3 of the United States Constution specificly spells out the powers of judges. No where in there does it allow them to make law or determin if law is unconstutional from the bench. This is in reguards to common-law. But we are no longer in a system of justice that has respect for comon law but use Admiralty law. Some would question what the difference is. Easy, common law states innocent untill proven guilty, Admiralty law is guilty untill proven innocent. Have you ever gotten a speeding ticket? Common law sets up 2 areas, criminal and civil. Who was hurt by your actions? If no one was then according to common law it is not a criminal issue. Was any property destroyed? If not then that is not civil law. So what are we left with? Admiralty law. It is an offence against the king that has been commited. Have you ever tried to prove your inncoents when you were not speeding and a cop gives you a ticket? Is his word held above yours, because he is law enforcemnt? And last, if a free people have the right to travel, how can a government impose laws on that right? What is next, who you can mary? How much air you can breathe?
If however you great minds can find somewhere in the Constution where it is pemitted for judges to make law then tell me. Is that not why we fought the Revolutionary War? Against a Monarch. And what is a judge in a court-room that can make laws, a monarch? Last I checked, the only body of government that was allowed to make law in any way, shape or form was Congress. Section 1 of the United States Constution. I have never found in the Constution where there is a seperation of church and state, but a Judge made law from the bench to put it there. Not Congress.
What about when the citizens of California voted not to give aid to illegal aliens which was asked for by their congress to pass the law or make it fail? It took a Judge on the bench to tell the citizens that they were wrong for making this law and it was un-Constutional. Now this is the true danger of the gold and yellow trim. Unless there is someone out there can provide the section of the Constution that gives Judges the right and ablity to make law and detrime if law is constutional or not. Is there someone out there that can prove the facts contained within this document wrong? Or is the truth to much to handle? Prove me wrong by stating the constution if you can. Remember the constution is where this group of people, congress, president, and judges, derive thier power from. Except in Admiralty law, which puts a gold or yellow trim around or decorates the top of a flag pole.

I am sure you have heard all the dis-information about the yellow or gold tim on the flag not meaning anything but it ia all lies. I can prove it!

Then please do so. Nowhere in all this gibberish do I see any reference to any law, regulation or custom that assigns any symbolic meaning to a gold fringe. Before you respond, please review the threads in the "Flag Design and Specifications" section of this forum, where the subject has been extensively discussed. Also, please do not waste our time by regurgitating fake quotations from EO 10834, AR 840-10, and other documents.

WHERE, exactly, is "Admiralty Law" mentioned in the Constitution of the United States of America ???

As I see it, according to your exceedingly flawed illogical "logic" (borrowed from the "Lunatic Fringe"?) logic, IF "Admiralty Law" is NOT mentioned in the Constitution of the United States of America, then NONE of "proofs" (of your so-called "information") hold any water.

WHERE, exactly, is "Admiralty Law" mentioned in the Constitution of the United States of America ???

Actually, it's in Article III, Section 2:

"The judicial Power [of the United States] shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; -- to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; -- to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction . . . "

Of course, what this has to do with fringes on flags is anybody's guess.

You are correct and it is a trap, and you fell face first. You are so obsessed with trying to prove me wrong, about the flag, and that there is no meaning in a gold or yellow trim or decoration on the flag post. You have ignored the question. Or your answer would have been, there is not a form of judicial system set up by the Constitution to hear common law. And by nature of Admiralty law, the judge can do as he pleases in his court room if it has not been decided by another or a higher court or international law, in his court room.

Admiralty law (also referred to as maritime law) is a distinct body of law which governs maritime questions and offenses. It is a body of both domestic law governing maritime activities, and private international law governing the relationships between private entities which operate vessels on the oceans. It deals with matters including marine commerce, marine navigation, shipping, sailors, and the transportation of passengers and goods by sea. Admiralty law also covers many commercial activities, although land based or occurring wholly on land, that are maritime in character. (you have to wonder what 'maritime in character' means, does it mean the movement of goods from point a to point b? See how misleading this statement can be?)

Admiralty law is distinguished from the Law of the Sea, which is a body of public international law dealing with navigational rights, mineral rights, jurisdiction over coastal waters and international law governing relationships between nations.

Although each legal jurisdiction usually has its own enacted legislation governing maritime matters, admiralty law is characterized by a significant amount of international law developed in recent decades, including numerous multilateral treaties.

It sets up no system of Judges for in-land issues. It sets up for a law that if it does not pertain to the sea or has yet to be brought in front of a judge it is invalid. Do you see the trap now?

Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attained.

Now that it is in front of you please, tell me where I am wrong? If admiralty and maritime jurisdiction are the only laws mentioned and recognized by Constitution, where is the common law that is made by your local Congress recognized? That is the trap. You have people that can make any law they want but if it does not concern the sea, it is not valid.

That is the truth about the Gold or Yellow Trim or the decoration on the flag post. Can you define 'maritime in character' and what it truly means?
Last I checked, the original issue I gave with the illegal aliens does not contain a ship, or a body or water. So where do they get their laws from? Stari Decisis. If it was not made law by a court then it is not law in court. That is why The judge was allowed to say the people were wrong. That is why there are laws regarding illegal aliens, that the courts do not have to follow because of Stari Decisis, it was not decided on by a court so it is not valid law. Granted it was the Federal Government that made the law, it just invalidated the law. Now, if the issue of illegal aliens comes back up we the people will just be stuck because it has been found stari decisis. That is what the gold or yellow trim or decoration on the flag post means.

You don't seem to understand that the powers enumerated in Article III Section 2 are a list. The items on the list are separated by the dashes and semicolons, which was the normal style in the 18th century. (Nowdays we'd probably itemize them with numbers.) Admiralty and maritime issues are one item on the list of things over which federal judicial power extends.

where is the common law that is made by your local Congress recognized?

In the first item on the list: " . . . all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States . . ." The laws of the United States, of course, are made by Congress.

We're still waiting to hear what any of this has to do with fringes on the flag.

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speakerâ€™s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling. (g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. US CODE: Title 4,8. Respect for flag

Ok, since you choose to support the theory that there is no menaing in the gold trim. Here is the laws reguarding respect for the flag.

Anatomy of the United States Flag

The U.S. Flag consists of a blue rectangle in the canton bearing 50 white stars representing each state. This is called the Union. The Union is offset by 13 alternating red and white stripes representing the 13 original colonies.

There isnâ€™t a legally defined symbolism of the flag and its colors. It is said that George Washington said the following about the symbolisim of the flag:

We take the stars from Heaven, the red from our mother country, separating it by white stripes, thus showing that we have separated from her, and the white stripes shall go down to posterity representing Liberty.​

Almost every description legal and other wise show and point out the flag without the gold trim. Unless you want to count ceramonial or parade flags or presidental flags and flags that are not stationary then they do have a gold trim.

A 1925 Attorney Generalâ€™s Opinion (34 Op. Atty. Gen 483) states:

"The fringe does not appear to be regarded as an integral part of the flag, and its presence cannot be said to constitute an unauthorized additional to the design prescribed by statute. An external fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under the law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe." ​

It is customary to place gold fringe on silken (rayon-silk-nylon) National flags that are carried in parades, used in official ceremonies, and displayed in offices, merely to enhance the beauty of the flag. The use of fringe is not restricted to the Federal Government. Such flags are used and displayed by our Armed Forces, veterans, civic and civilian organizations, and private individuals. However, it is the custom not to use fringe on flags displayed from stationary flagpoles and, traditionally, fringe has not been used on internment flags.​

If it is not designed to be flown on Stationary flag post as those in court rooms, then it is in violation of section g of repect for the flag. When is the last time you have seen the flag in a court room marched in in a ceramony, or a parade? or is that flag stationary?
By the words and the interpertations it is just a dispersect for what the true flag is, RED, WHITE, and BLUE, not red, white, blue with a yellow trim.

Specifications

The basic design of the current flag is specified by 4 U.S.C.Â§ 1; 4 U.S.C.Â§ 2 outlines the addition of new stars to represent new states. The specification gives the following values:

These specifications are contained in an executive order which, strictly speaking, governs only flags made for or by the U.S. federal government.[4] In practice, however, most U.S. national flags available for sale to the public have a different length-to-width ratio; common sizes are 2 x 3 ft. or 4 x 6 ft. (flag ratio 1.5), 2.5 x 4 ft. or 5 x 8 ft. (1.6), or 3 x 5 ft. or 6 x 10 ft. (1.667). Even flags flown over the U.S. Capitol for sale to the public through Representatives or Senators are provided in these sizes.[5] Flags that are made to the prescribed 1.9 ratio are often referred to as "G-spec" (for "government specification") flags.

If it is not part as perscribed by law, then what flag is it because according to law the American Flag, is just RED, WHITE, and BLUE.

There is no rules reguarding this new flag, becsue it is a joke that is thrown up in the face of every Amercian every time there is someone out there defending the yellow trim. What country does this flag with the gold trim belong to? I have shown where by law it is illegal and a mark against those in power that would love to claim that it means nothing. It does, it means that every court room that flys that flag is above the law and does not have to obey it because they choose not to. It shows that only those in power and have money can ever get a fair trial. It shows by law that it is a blatent disprespect for Our American Flag, and that flag prescribed by law, is Red, White, and Blue.
Any other flag, or modification to a stationary flag, is nothing more than a joke to the system of laws that have been put in place to protect the American People. It shows that the people on the benches do not have to obey the law any more then those illegals aliens that are in our country.
Tell me the gold trim means nothing, and you will be verifying that you yourself have no respect for Old Glory and every man and woman who has ever died in Her Great Name. Tell me that it is ok to defile the flag even by attourney Generals statement backs up the gold trim is not valid for anything but...It is customary to place gold fringe on silken (rayon-silk-nylon) National flags that are carried in parades, used in official ceremonies, and displayed in offices, merely to enhance the beauty of the flag. The use of fringe is not restricted to the Federal Government. Such flags are used and displayed by our Armed Forces, veterans, civic and civilian organizations, and private individuals. However, it is the custom not to use fringe on flags displayed from stationary flagpoles and, traditionally, fringe has not been used on internment flags.
My question now would be would you support his decision, or those that would decive you in beliving that there is nothing behind it. I mean that is no better than having either a picture of Obma or Bush on the flag behind the bench if that trim means nothing. It does it is a disrespect for the Flag.
There is the law in all its glory. So I ask you now, why is there a gold trim on the flag in our court rooms with staionary flags?

You have absolutely NO idea what a "Stationary Flagpole" is, do you ???

You spent all that time, and took up all that forum space, to tell (and RE-tell) us a bunch of "stuff" about the Flag that we already knew.

Apparently, somewhere along the way, you've decided that it's perfectly "okay" for the U.S. government, the armed forces, AND the rest of us to display American Flags that have a Gold Fringe EXCEPT in courtrooms!

Then, to top it all off, at the very end you decided to show us that you have NO idea what a "stationary flagpole" really is.

QUOTE : "However, it is the custom not to use fringe on flags displayed from stationary flagpoles and, traditionally, fringe has not been used on internment flags."

And there, in your final sentence, you pose the question that reveals a strategic gap in your knowledge about EXACTLY what a "stationary flagpole" really IS !!!

QUOTE : "So I ask you now, why is there a gold trim on the flag in our court rooms with staionary flags?"

The fringed flags in courtrooms, in police stations, in school auditoria, in churches, in the Oval Office (and yes, I have been there and seen them), and other indoor locations are held upright in portable bases - they do not meet the definition of "stationary flag poles" as the flags on their staffs can be easiliy removed and paraded as necessary. Unfringed flags flying outside of courthouses, schools, military bases, private buildings, etc., are on poles structurally secured in the ground in a solid foundation - these poles are stationary flag poles. Unfringed flags flying atop buildings are also on poles permanently fixed in place to withstand wind loading. They are also stationary flag poles.

My visit to the Oval Office was not to meet the president, unfortunately. It was to teach a course to members of the Secret Service. A fellow vexillologist and I were invited by the Curator of the White House to explain the significance of the Presidential Seal and Flag to the Secret Service (as they are charged with preventing misuse of the flag and seal of the President). He did the seal, I did the flag. I used antique Presidential flags from my collection, plus one of the fringed Presidential Standards in the north entrance to the Executive Mansion.

"#2GOOD Show for doing the "Flag Significance" training for the Secret Service !"

Thanks! Back in those days (early 1990's) the White House actually cared about unauthorized commercialization of the Presidential Seal and Flag. Nowadays you can buy just about anything with the Presidential seal printed, embossed, engraved, sewn, or embroidered on it and no one gives a hoot.

I mean that is no better than having either a picture of Obma or Bush on the flag behind the bench if that trim means nothing. It does it is a disrespect for the Flag.

Glenn, would you please do us a favor and read the stuff that you cut-and-paste into your posts? The 1925 AG opinion said: "An external fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under the law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe." This says, in clear, simple English, that a fringe is not the same thing as a picture or slogan placed on the flag itself.

I have shown where by law it is illegal

Where have you shown this? Does it have something to do with Admiralty law? (-;

why is there a gold trim on the flag in our court rooms with staionary flags?

To enhance the beauty of the flag, and also to remind us of the heroism of our ancestors, who fought and died for us under fringed national colors.

.
I think that in Glenn_EG's last major post (8-14-2009) in this thread he pretty much acknowledges that the gold fringe is, in most cases, allowable on American (and other) Flags. I say that simply based on what he included in his posting.

As near as I can tell, he has cited three (3) exceptions where fringed Flags would NOT be acceptable: (#1) Flags flying from stationary flagpoles, (#2) Burial (interment) Flags, and (#3) U.S. Flags (and maybe others) on stationary flagpoles in courtrooms.

At this point, Glenn_EG doesn't seem to have a "problem" with either exception #1 or #2. He DOES, however, seem to still have a "problem" wth #3, fringed American Flags on stationary flagpoles IN courtrooms.

MY (unwritten) point in my FIRST posting on 8-18-2009, was that there is NO such thing as "stationary" flagpoles in courtrooms, or in any other rooms for that matter. All INDOOR flagpoles are usually somewhere between 6 and 9 feet tall and are placed in "holders". Thus, the poles are "portable" (moveable) and NOT stationary. Nick's reply that followed mine pretty much covered all of that pretty darn well.

My main point (written) was that Glenn_EG did not seem to have any idea as to what a "stationary" flagpole is.

LOL
I was all ready to go into a big speach on this entire subject, then I had a eureka moment. I have stated my case with the laws and so on and legal defintions ect. Judicial. Legislative. Executive. Two things here. One, what law allows for the courts to make law? And two, state the law that alows the gold trim.

According to the Constution, there are 3 bodies of government and each body is responcable for its own duties and the duties are in no way combined meshed or muddled. I mean the Judical system has nothing to do with money. Neiher does the Executive. It is part of the Legislative. The Juding has nothing to do with the Legislative branch, or the Executive. Each branch of government is responcable for its own duties. So, somewhere there has to be a law that allows the courts to make law. Please quote it. That means somehwere there is a law that allows for the gold trim. Please state it.

Now, if you are going to quote a Millitary Law that allows the trim, I am a Civilan. Millitary law is not valid in a civilan court. If you are going to state court case for law, it goes back to my fist statement. State the law that allows for courts to make law. . If you can not do either then you have to admit that there is more to the trim than what is being shown or said. It is also that the gold trim is a compleate offence to any one who is a Patriot. It is a disrespect for the flag that should be taken more seriously.

I am 62 years old and I have been seeing the gold or yellow trim on American flags sense I was in the first grade. To try and make something more out of this is going beyond reason. To me the flag of our country is a beautiful thing to behold. I would say the majorty of people who see the fringe don't give a crap to what "you" think it means. To me it always enhanced the looks of the flag. If you want to continue your case you are going to get a lot more responces like mine.

To me the the American flag means a country that was born in freedom and LIVES IN FREEDOM!!! The gold trim just enhances it looks when it is setting on a stage or in a courtroom or in a church. To make more out of it is like I said before, "going beyond reason".

I am sorry that you think that way. I am sorry that you think it is ok for courts to make law. I am sorry you do not understand the seperation of powers that are in the constution.
Then again I am sure you would claim that a drivers liscence is a legal document. When in fact, using this same system you are claiming has the rights to make law, has laready determined that they are in fact an infrigment on our rights as a free people, free to travel without government restriction. And by this same system it has claimed that Federal immigration law is invald, ask California, prop 187.
So, please feel free to claim that the courts have the right to make law. And also consider that power was only vested in the Legislative branch of the government. And once you start to blur who can do what. Where does it lead? I mean right now the big thing in the news is this health care reform. In one opnion you get that this is the best thing sinced sliced bread, and in another you get this is just as bad as medicade. Well, if we were to stand on this idea that this is the best thing to happen to the plublic, then why are the congress people not willing to get into the program themselves? Where does it end when we allow the constution to be belittled and disrespected due to ignorance? Please as I had asked before, state the law that allows for the Judical system to make law. And age is no excuse for ignorace.
Freedom is not free. Citizenship is a respocablity. Knowing your rights is up to you and no one else. But listen when someone is trying to help. Do not turn a blind eye because, oh it enhances the flag. That is no reason to put anything on the flag.
Let me explaine this way, if I taught your children and you childrens children and so on that the sky is not blue and that that color is green. When would that become the truth? A lie from the begining can never be the truth no matter how many times or how hard you wish it were true.

Apparently you have been operating under the mistaken impression that we have to "prove" that you are "wrong" about the illegality of having gold fringe attached to the edges of an American Flag. We really don't have anything to "prove".

That's not why we are here. And besides, in your post (post #8 in this thread) on 08-14-2009, at 08:07 PM, you managed to scuttle your "ship" quite nicely.

Oh, I know you want to show us all how educated, knowledgeable, and clever you are about our government, our Constitution, "common" law, "admiralty" law, and all that other stuff you like to "cut and paste" into your entries.

And all that is well and good, but that's NOT why we are here.

You see, Glenn, this is the USA-Flag-Site, NOT the "usa-constitution-site", or the "usa-separation-of-powers-site", or the "usa-admiralty-law-site", et cetera.

This is the USA-FLAG-SITE.org, OK?

It's about the FLAG.

Now Glenn, if you really believe that having a gold fringe around the outside edges of an American Flag is "improper" or maybe even "illegal", that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Even though it may be "wrong", you're still entitled to have it.

But, please, if you're going to discuss your opinion about the Flag here, keep your discussion civil and "on-subject" because this is, after all, the USA-FLAG-Site, right?

On the other hand, if all you want to do is talk about what is, or is not, supposedly constitutional or legal according to common or admiralty law, or "activist" judges, or any other Alex Jones type of "conspiracy theories", you might be better off (and a WHOLE lot happier!) spending your time sharing with others over at www.infowars.com or its sister site www.prisonplanet.com.

Look on the bright side, Glenn. You have never been able to prove that having a gold fringe attached to the outside edges of an American Flag is illegal or even disrespectful. Not even once! Isn't that wonderful?

According to the Constution, there are 3 bodies of government and each body is responcable for its own duties and the duties are in no way combined meshed or muddled. I mean the Judical system has nothing to do with money. Neiher does the Executive. It is part of the Legislative. The Juding has nothing to do with the Legislative branch, or the Executive.

This is nonsense. Each of the three branches has its own responsibilities, but they interact in all sorts of ways. Using your money example: the legislative branch establishes the budget, the executive approves the budget and spends the money, and the judicial adjudicates legal issues related to the expenditures, contracts, and the like.

somewhere there has to be a law that allows the courts to make law. Please quote it.

Courts do not make law. As far as I can see, nobody here (except you) has ever said that they do. Courts do, of course, interpret the law and establish precedents.

That means somehwere there is a law that allows for the gold trim.

That's generally not the way laws work. Laws don't "allow" things, they prohibit them. There is no law that says you're allowed to wear a red T-shirt, but that doesn't mean that red T-shirts are illegal.

It is also that the gold trim is a compleate offence to any one who is a Patriot.

Says who? The fringe enhances the beauty of the flag, and it is a reminder of the fringed colors that our ancestors fought and died under. That's why flags with fringes are proudly displayed in offices, auditoriums, schools, banks, legion halls, churches and courtrooms, and carried in parades and ceremonies by both military personnel and civilians. How is any of this unpatriotic?