I know I'm personally enjoying using Consecration as a bear, especially when our group tends to chain pull 3 or more groups at a time. Works especially well in conjunction with Ursol's Vortex on trash. I think in terms of raiding, the selections one may have could be limited, but they're especially nice in the 5-man area (especially Challenge Modes).

Lets assume for a moment that a 10% bone shield is useful, I'll give you that more damage reduction abilities are better then less. It is still not worthy of being our level 90 ability as it is far weaker then lower level cool-downs. Looking at the list of abilities Symbiosis grants, it is very difficult to care due to how watered down they are.

I'm no heroic mode raider(killed one heroic boss this expansion) but even I can see the usefulness of the ability, using the example of a DK+Druid tank combination I'd be more than happy to have a 30/60% increased damage reduction for three hits(assuming Barkskin/SI are additive to Bone Shield), I know you won't often stack cooldowns like that but sometimes you just need that extra little bit to survive the next hit not to mention your DK buddy would love the extra survivability they get from Might of Ursoc. I admit that a lot of the abilities are very situational but they are far from being useless when those situations do arise.

6 and 8. What if you were in a 10 man without a holy pala or a priest but had a prot paladin tank? Highly unlikely I know, but it could happen. I healed the entirety of Firelands with a shaman partner while our paladin tanked. Luckily, there were no Necrotic Plague-like mechanics or else we would have been SOL. Intimidating Roar is highly situational as well but it's there if required.

That's a fair point that I didn't consider. However, Blizzard has said themselves that they will no longer try and design fights where a certain class is absolutely required, so it's unlikely we'll see a fight where you'd be screwed without a disease dispeller.

I agree that Symbiosis is nice, I don't think it's crap or useless, but I also don't think it's as amazing as some people try and make it out to be. It's situational and can be indeed powerful if you have the right classes and specs in your raiding groups, aaaand if you don't have too many druids.

Since we're talking PvE in general, let's not forget Challenge modes, though. What if your best buddies that you want to run challenge modes with (and rank high on the gold charts with) are 2 druids and... I dunno, a mage and a hunter. Now you're 3 druids who can only link to 2 people. The fun kind of disappears for the one person who can't use Symbiosis at all and may even be a slight detriment to the group since they don't have a lvl87 ability. Bummer.

Since we're talking PvE in general, let's not forget Challenge modes, though. What if your best buddies that you want to run challenge modes with (and rank high on the gold charts with) are 2 druids and... I dunno, a mage and a hunter. Now you're 3 druids who can only link to 2 people. The fun kind of disappears for the one person who can't use Symbiosis at all and may even be a slight detriment to the group since they don't have a lvl87 ability. Bummer.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

As far as composition goes, I can't promise that every possible composition will be able to get Gold. (Apologies in advance to the prospective monk/monk/monk/monk/monk groups out there.) Every composition will be able to get Silver (subject to some fairly basic ground rules such as "you have a healer"), and every class should have multiple viable group makeups in which it can obtain Gold, assuming masterful play.

As per Ascendance - it's only as powerful as it is (from a dps perspective) due to the fact that the entire class took a dps hit in the 5.0 overhaul in order to compensate for it.

Last edited by Sterilize; 2012-09-20 at 09:04 AM.

Undefined animosity is a device of the spineless, the means of a fool.

As far as composition goes, I can't promise that every possible composition will be able to get Gold. (Apologies in advance to the prospective monk/monk/monk/monk/monk groups out there.) Every composition will be able to get Silver (subject to some fairly basic ground rules such as "you have a healer"), and every class should have multiple viable group makeups in which it can obtain Gold, assuming masterful play.

As per Ascendance - it's only as powerful as it is (from a dps perspective) due to the fact that the entire class took a dps hit in the 5.0 overhaul in order to compensate for it.

Well, yes, I'm not implying that every single combo should be just as efficient as the other. But doesn't it suck that in a group of 3 druids and 2 other classes, one person cannot use Symbiosis at all? There is no other class is such situation. Five monks may not be an ideal setup, but they can all use their abilities to their full potential.

When I could instead use my own abilities and get a larger reduction? Yea, not worth it. If there is a theoretical instance where all my other cool-downs are used, then sure. But that seems like an outlier condition rather then a legitimate use.

i watched your armory, and from what i see there it is clear that u are not a progressed enough player to be able to estimate the value the worth of the abilitys u get from symbioses.

The problem is not symbioses, the Problem is that symbioses is an awesome toolkit for knowledgable players.
It is perhaps not fit for you, but if u stick to your level of playing, u will never be in a situation where your life and your success will depend on it.
So just take it as a "fun stuff", try to use it and see what it does for you, or don't use it at all, if you want.

But for explanation, so that u have an idea about the utilitys u get, i will give u a detailed example.

Feint is an ae dmg reduction ability. It is something added to the guardian toolkit. boss makes ae? ae cant be dodged. It can perhaps be healed, if it doesn't kill u. But a good part of this ae wouldnt be needed to be healed, if u would have used feint for it. There will be situations, where this button lets u survive an Ae pulse, that otherwise would have killed u.

That wont be a problem in lfr, or normal mode mostly. But in Heroic mode, this could kill you, or put so much stress on healer mana, that the encounter cannot be won, because the healers had to heal 4 million ae dmg on the lazy bear, which could have been reduced to 2 million by only pressing the feint button.

Symbiosis something, that ADDS to your toolkit, its not redundancy, its on top of the baseline guardian toolkit, it makes u more complete and u can choose for every fight which will net u the most bargain. Its awesome.

Well, yes, I'm not implying that every single combo should be just as efficient as the other. But doesn't it suck that in a group of 3 druids and 2 other classes, one person cannot use Symbiosis at all? There is no other class is such situation. Five monks may not be an ideal setup, but they can all use their abilities to their full potential.

Shaman/Hunter Mage [ Bloodlust ]- Only one gets to use their ability. All still benefit? Sure, although it is often a substantial dps loss for player that has to push the button as trinkets/potion/CDs tick down.
Lock/Druid [ Battle Rez ] - Only one (or is it 4 for 25?) get to use this during an encounter. The rest may as well just strip it off their bars once someone else uses it. Still benefits? Sure. I'll give ya that.
Paladins - Forbearance greatly hampers another paladins' ability to use Hand of Protection. Minor inconvenience, but notable.
Priest [ Weakened Soul/Prayer of Mending clipping ] - Try and stack disc priests and see just how effective they are as they try to juggle around Weakened Soul Debuffs; compromising both mana longevity and eHPS. There is also an issue where Prayer of Mendings will overwrite eachother as they jump around - essentially making the player cast/cancelaura Prayer of Mending. No, the priest doesn't *lose* an ability when you stack a few of them together, but I'd say they suffer a great deal more than druids would.

Yes, not being able to click that fancy new button you just added to your bars may be annoying, but the (lack of) outright strength is likely the only reason such an ability is even feasible to give to another class. If the synergies (if that ain't a word, I'm startin it) between the druid and other classes was stronger, how would druid's not become the single most powerful class in the game within a group environment?

I'd gladly trade you Blinding Light, Void Shift, Demonic Gateway or All 3 War banners in exchange for Symbiosis.

---------- Post added 2012-09-20 at 11:01 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Holofernes

The problem is not symbioses, the Problem is that symbioses is an awesome toolkit for knowledgable players.

[SNIP]

Symbiosis something, that ADDS to your toolkit, its not redundancy, its on top of the baseline guardian toolkit, it makes u more complete and u can choose for every fight which will net u the most bargain. Its awesome.

This guy hit it pretty close to the mark. I'd have killed for a consecrate to save healers from Bloods on H Spine, an Ice Trap for Regenerative Bloods on H Madness/Spiderlings on Beth or an extra CD for that one boss nuke that always seems to hit me when nothing else is available (Lol, 5k overkill).

Last edited by Sterilize; 2012-09-20 at 11:02 AM.

Undefined animosity is a device of the spineless, the means of a fool.

Shaman/Hunter Mage [ Bloodlust ]- Only one gets to use their ability. All still benefit? Sure, although it is often a substantial dps loss for player that has to push the button as trinkets/potion/CDs tick down.
Lock/Druid [ Battle Rez ] - Only one (or is it 4 for 25?) get to use this during an encounter. The rest may as well just strip it off their bars once someone else uses it. Still benefits? Sure. I'll give ya that.
Paladins - Forbearance greatly hampers another paladins' ability to use Hand of Protection. Minor inconvenience, but notable.
Priest [ Weakened Soul/Prayer of Mending clipping ] - Try and stack disc priests and see just how effective they are as they try to juggle around Weakened Soul Debuffs; compromising both mana longevity and eHPS. There is also an issue where Prayer of Mendings will overwrite eachother as they jump around - essentially making the player cast/cancelaura Prayer of Mending. No, the priest doesn't *lose* an ability when you stack a few of them together, but I'd say they suffer a great deal more than druids would.

I'd like to reiterate that I was talking about Challenge modes before I comment on the rest, not raids or PvP or whatever else.

First of all, bloodlust is not a huge lvl87 ability, it's just one of many buffs. And the group can indeed benefit from several Bloodlusts if one person dies and it clears their debuff. We're talking about Challenge modes here, but say on hc Ultraxion we'd sometimes have the healers exit the Twilight realm at the beginning, pop Heroism for the DPS and tanks and then later do another Heroism for the healers. A similar mechanic in a Challenge mode can prove beneficial.

As for battle rezzes, 5-mans don't have any cap on battle rezzes, so they're very stackable actually.

Paladins... well, that's just a minor inconvenience, as you mention.

And in a 5-man Challenge mode you will never have 2 disc priests, so this point is invalid.

I'll take one Void Shift to instantly heal myself from a treant or save a tank, thanks :P

Well, if you want to break it down to specifics - Lust was a shaman's level 70 defining ability. Level 80 for the mage. And since we're talking exclusively about challenge modes, there are no phase mechanics (to my knowledge. I've seen several, but not all) where you can pop several lusts. As far as death goes, the same could be applied to utilizing symbiosis from the druid that was left on whoever suddenly finds themselves lacking after an unfortunate fire incident. Combat rezzing isn't always available on the drop of a hat due to fight mechanics or ability CDs.

If you want to compare only abilities at 87, how about with DKs? Right... they don't even have a new ability in the final leg to 90.
In the grand scheme of things, these arguements are unlikely to prove anything in regards to Symbiosis' value. Symbiosis is largely a utility spell, and as such it won't be needed or even beneficial in many if not most fights within the game. It has significant potential but it's far from handicapping the class if you don't have it available.

Last edited by Sterilize; 2012-09-20 at 11:49 AM.

Undefined animosity is a device of the spineless, the means of a fool.

Well, if you want to break it down to specifics - Lust was a shaman's level 70 defining ability. Level 80 for the mage. And since we're talking exclusively about challenge modes, there are no phase mechanics (to my knowledge. I've seen several, but not all) where you can pop several lusts. As far as death goes, the same could be applied to utilizing symbiosis from the druid that was left on whoever suddenly finds themselves lacking after an unfortunate fire incident. Combat rezzing isn't always available on the drop of a hat due to fight mechanics or ability CDs.

If you want to compare only abilities at 87, how about with DKs? Right... they don't even have a new ability in the final leg to 90.
In the grand scheme of things, these arguements are unlikely to prove anything in regards to Symbiosis' value. Symbiosis is largely a utility spell, and as such it won't be needed or even beneficial in many if not most fights within the game. It has significant potential but it's far from handicapping the class if you don't have it available.

Your point about utilizing Symbiosis when someone dies would be valid if Symbiosis was castable in combat, which it sadly isn't. I'm not trying to point out that Symbiosis sucks or is bad or whatever, I'm merely pointing our obvious drawbacks to all those blindly proclaiming how awesome-sauce it is.

It's an ok ability, useful in some situations, crappy in others. *shrug* I merely don't understand the cheering and excitement.

Druids need to think of symbiosis like dks think of dark simulacrum, except druids end lvl ability is vastly more useful in pve scenarios and arguably in pvp as well.
People saying 10% dmg reduction in useless obviously don't realise the benefits of added free mitigation, '3 melee hits' no, its 3 charges, of which there is a 2.5 second icd so they don't all dissipate from multiple targets hitting you at the same time.
It is GOOD, and it can be used to add MORE mitigation and utility, be thankful its even remotely useful. It will be used on every fight in raids, can you say the same for other abilities? compare it to dks equivalent of dark sim the last expansion (this ability is also mostly useless in mop t14 as well).

EDIT: An ability that adds only positive outcomes and no draw backs should be praised.

It's an ok ability, useful in some situations, crappy in others. *shrug* I merely don't understand the cheering and excitement.

Things that add depth are interesting and fun in a way that things that are straight DPS/healing aren't. That's why there's cheering and excitement. No one (or nearly no one) is under some delusional impression that Symbiosis shoots Druids into another stratosphere, we just think it's fun to have an extra ability that actually requires thought to use to maximum effectiveness. When progression attempts aren't going ideally, for me to be able to think, "hmmm, is there something I could do with Symbiosis to help us out here" is just incredibly fun... much more fun than saying, "heal more bad Druid" to myself.

i watched your armory, and from what i see there it is clear that u are not a progressed enough player to be able to estimate the value the worth of the abilitys u get from symbioses.

The problem is not symbioses, the Problem is that symbioses is an awesome toolkit for knowledgable players.
It is perhaps not fit for you, but if u stick to your level of playing, u will never be in a situation where your life and your success will depend on it.
So just take it as a "fun stuff", try to use it and see what it does for you, or don't use it at all, if you want.

But for explanation, so that u have an idea about the utilitys u get, i will give u a detailed example.

Feint is an ae dmg reduction ability. It is something added to the guardian toolkit. boss makes ae? ae cant be dodged. It can perhaps be healed, if it doesn't kill u. But a good part of this ae wouldnt be needed to be healed, if u would have used feint for it. There will be situations, where this button lets u survive an Ae pulse, that otherwise would have killed u.

That wont be a problem in lfr, or normal mode mostly. But in Heroic mode, this could kill you, or put so much stress on healer mana, that the encounter cannot be won, because the healers had to heal 4 million ae dmg on the lazy bear, which could have been reduced to 2 million by only pressing the feint button.

Symbiosis something, that ADDS to your toolkit, its not redundancy, its on top of the baseline guardian toolkit, it makes u more complete and u can choose for every fight which will net u the most bargain. Its awesome.

And if your 10-man doesn't have a Rogue? We're meant to go recruit one for fights with unavoidable AoE? Are we also lazy if we don't want to kick someone and recruit a Rogue just for symbiosis? I mean without a Rogue, DK or Monk, a Guardian doesn't really have any viable mitigation options for symbiosis;I'll probably already have to ask our warrior to play his DK to get anything useful outside of gimmick fights within our group comp.

This talent by default makes it so if you don't have certain classes in your raid group, you can't play your class to it's fullest potential, with the class required varying by boss. Thought they were trying to get away from making us run certain classes, specs, ranged DPS, etc.

And if your 10-man doesn't have a Rogue? We're meant to go recruit one for fights with unavoidable AoE? Are we also lazy if we don't want to kick someone and recruit a Rogue just for symbiosis? I mean without a Rogue, DK or Monk, a Guardian doesn't really have any viable mitigation options for symbiosis;I'll probably already have to ask our warrior to play his DK to get anything useful outside of gimmick fights within our group comp.

This talent by default makes it so if you don't have certain classes in your raid group, you can't play your class to it's fullest potential, with the class required varying by boss. Thought they were trying to get away from making us run certain classes, specs, ranged DPS, etc.

No, we're meant to be able to get encounters down without any use of Symbiosis at all. Symbiosis doesn't make things possible, it makes them easier. That doesn't mean it's not useful. Raiders after all spend much of their time trying to figure out how to make things easier. But you'll totally be able to tank something without a rogue, dk or monk. In the general purpose case you could look to just use it to give someone else an ability that makes their life easier. If it benefits the raid group then it benefits you.

No, we're meant to be able to get encounters down without any use of Symbiosis at all. Symbiosis doesn't make things possible, it makes them easier. That doesn't mean it's not useful. Raiders after all spend much of their time trying to figure out how to make things easier. But you'll totally be able to tank something without a rogue, dk or monk. In the general purpose case you could look to just use it to give someone else an ability that makes their life easier. If it benefits the raid group then it benefits you.

Sure. I'll give you they probably won't be stupid enough to balance fights around people having certain symbiosis combos, but... if running say Guardian/Rogue/DK or Druid/ShadowPriest starts making fights too easy it's probably going to get nerfed into oblivion; actually it's probably going to get nerfed to oblivion due to PvP issues.

That however doesn't fix the fact the talent is not fun if you don't have the class with the ability you want in your raid. It doesn't fix the fact it's not fun that you cannot use it while you're soloing. It doesn't fix the fact that it's not fun that you can't use it on other Druids, and that said Druids can't even place it on the same target. It's not fun in that I can already see raids saying 'we don't care what spell you get, you're going to put it on the shadow priest/tank'.

I have a lot more against the spell from the 'not fun' side of things, than its 'not useful' aspect.