Rosa says it to Roland some days before the wolves come.
I read this book before as well but this was the first time I had to stop for minutes at this line.
Roland has never been told a good man before.
I would like to ask you what you think Rosalita herself meant by it. And why did she say it?
I think Rosa is a true-hearted woman and she is wise as well. She isn't a teenager girl in love... if she says something that's how she feels and she has good reasons.
Did she really think Roland was a good man? Did she say it because she was so thankful? Somehow I feel saving the children wasn't the only reason for saying it. And she knew how much Roland was obsessed with the Tower.

Jean

10-21-2008, 10:57 PM

thank you for bringing it up - it's one of my favorite moments, and one of the most important, too

She says that because she sees him as a good man, and because he is a good man. I frankly don't know what else could be asked of him besides what he already is and what he has already done; if he isn't good, who the hell is?

Letti

10-21-2008, 11:13 PM

*hugs Jean* It's good to know you feel the same way.
Do you think it meant a lot to Roland? Or did he forget it quickly?

Jean

10-21-2008, 11:17 PM

I think it meant everything to him. He had never even heard anything like that before, and if not for that fabulous woman, would never have heard it in the future, no matter what he did. I will have to re-read the New York (tet corporation) part, but as far as I remember, while appreciating him saving the world and all that, nobody guessed to say anything as simple as "you're a good man".

Letti

10-21-2008, 11:37 PM

The way he reacted... it was so modest and silent. He didn't show at all how much it meant him. It's not so surprising, it's Roland.

turtlex

10-22-2008, 04:24 AM

I don't think Roland forgets things, and I especially feel that he wouldn't have let this go.

Roland is someone who accepts his own limitations, and this is such a heartfelt compliment, that it had to have meant something to him, so he'd not have just let it go.

Wuducynn

10-22-2008, 06:11 AM

Did she really think Roland was a good man? Did she say it because she was so thankful? Somehow I feel saving the children wasn't the only reason for saying it. And she knew how much Roland was obsessed with the Tower.

I think she really thought it, yes. Like you said she is a wise woman and saw goodness in him. I don't think she knew about his history and didn't know that sometimes Roland can be both good and bad.

I don't think Roland forgets things

Except we know differently from early on in the series because the world is moving on, he does forget things. This I don't think he would forget altogether.

turtlex

10-22-2008, 08:20 AM

I don't think Roland forgets things

Except we know differently from early on in the series because the world is moving on, he does forget things. This I don't think he would forget altogether.

Excellent point.

I guess I didn't mean "forget" but really sort of that is wasn't something he'd just let pass and put out of his mind.

jayson

10-22-2008, 08:54 AM

Except we know differently from early on in the series because the world is moving on, he does forget things.

Yes, but he also says at some point something to the effect of "even the past is in motion" so maybe he doesn't forget moreso than what he might remember just didn't happen anymore in the now-altered past. :orely:

Jean

10-22-2008, 08:57 AM

That's what I think, too. Certainly doesn't look like a forgetful type to me.

Wuducynn

10-22-2008, 09:23 AM

Except we know differently from early on in the series because the world is moving on, he does forget things.

Yes, but he also says at some point something to the effect of "even the past is in motion" so maybe he doesn't forget moreso than what he might remember just didn't happen anymore in the now-altered past. :orely:

Yeah, good point Jayson. Gold star for you and a Scratch N' Sniff(tm) sticker.

jayson

10-22-2008, 09:28 AM

:clap:
As it's coming from you, I hesitate to ask what the scent of the sticker might be. :panic:

Wuducynn

10-22-2008, 10:35 AM

:grouphug: Strawberry.

Brainslinger

10-22-2008, 05:25 PM

I think she just said he's a good man cos he gave her lots of orgasms.

"OOOOOOOOoooooooh! Thee's a good man Roland!
Now, where's the cat sphincter oil, if it do ya?"

Sorry, trust me to lower the tone...

I think she told him he's a good man, first because she believes it, (what with his aiding the villagers and all), and because she is genuinely good at reading people. I think she also might have said it to remind him too. She must know there is a lot of darkness in him, and all gunslingers (remember how many of the villagers feared them as much as they welcomed their aid.) and I think maybe she recognized he was partly affected by his past too. (Sure he's a practical guy and seldom lives in the past but part of his hardness and apparent lack of feeling is due to the pain and deeds of the past.) Maybe it was her way of giving him a poke (not that kind of poke... ooh my dirty mind) and saying, "You're all right bucko."

LadyHitchhiker

10-22-2008, 06:42 PM

Maybe she said he was a good man because he was a good man then, and he was at that time noble, and not sacrificing his friends for the tower? I couldn't see her calling him a good man during the whole drop-Jake-time period.

As for him not saying anything, sure he was humbled by what she said, but maybe he couldn't say anything because also he didn't see himself that way. Somewhere in the mighty series, I will paraphrase, he says that he knew he would forsake all for the tower.

I wish he had stopped then. She would have accepted him and they may have become happy if he could have forgotten the tower.

The Lady of Shadows

10-23-2008, 01:29 PM

i hate this thread.

because the sad thing is, as i don my asbestos suit and prepared for the war, roland is not a good man. he's a rapist and a murderer. he's a child-killer and a myopic son-of-a-bitch who would willingly destroy everyone in his path to get what he wants, i.e. the tower.

that doesn't mean i don't love him, but i see him for who he is. he is gifted, he is talented, he is alone, he is fearsome, he is brilliant, he is arrogant, he is lonely, he is sad, he is afraid, he is murderous, he is willful, he is myopic, he is stranded, he is pitiful. but he's not a good man. not yet. but he will be, someday he will be. and i think this cycle shows that day is coming soon.

let the flaming begin. :lol:

ladysai

10-23-2008, 01:56 PM

that doesn't mean i don't love him, but i see him for who he is. he is gifted, he is talented, he is alone, he is fearsome, he is brilliant, he is arrogant, he is lonely, he is sad, he is afraid, he is murderous, he is willful, he is myopic, he is stranded, he is pitiful. but he's not a good man. not yet. but he will be, someday he will be. and i think this cycle shows that day is coming soon.

I totally agree.
(although I cant remember him raping anyone...?)

And the key to the whole shebang is what I bolded in turtlesong's quote.
The man is working towards becoming good.
He's headed there, but aint made it yet.

alinda

10-23-2008, 02:29 PM

Here I go about to sound like Forrest Gump , because I think it is both.
Rosalita seems to have an ability to see Roland for all he is, and love
him all the more for it. Roland is as good as anyone in that he is on
a path to wards himself, and what could be better than self realization
while saving all of existence?

jayson

10-23-2008, 02:31 PM

As I don't believe in objective good or bad (or objective anything else for that matter) I'd say it's all a matter of perspective. From Rosa's perspective, he's a good man. He is standing up for the children (and the adults) of the Calla, risking his own life to fight the Wolves. To Rosa, these are the actions of a good man.

I don't think it matters that we know more about Roland's past than she does. Her statement was reflective of her specific feelings about the Roland she knows, not an overall final judgment of his character based on every event since he left Gilead.

(although I cant remember him raping anyone...?)

I suspect ts is referring to what Roland did to Sylvia Pittson with his gun. I can certainly see where that can be interpreted as rape.

MonteGss

10-23-2008, 03:17 PM

Interesting thread and discussion.

Yes, Roland is a good man. A determined man can still be a good man. A good man can still make mistakes.

ladysai

10-23-2008, 03:48 PM

(although I cant remember him raping anyone...?)

I suspect ts is referring to what Roland did to Sylvia Pittson with his gun. I can certainly see where that can be interpreted as rape.

Ah.
I forgot about that.
(The Gunslinger is one book of the series I have seldom read.)

Jean

10-23-2008, 10:53 PM

i hate this thread.

because the sad thing is, as i don my asbestos suit and prepared for the war, roland is not a good man. he's a rapist and a murderer. he's a child-killer and a myopic son-of-a-bitch who would willingly destroy everyone in his path to get what he wants, i.e. the tower.

that doesn't mean i don't love him, but i see him for who he is. he is gifted, he is talented, he is alone, he is fearsome, he is brilliant, he is arrogant, he is lonely, he is sad, he is afraid, he is murderous, he is willful, he is myopic, he is stranded, he is pitiful. but he's not a good man. not yet. but he will be, someday he will be. and i think this cycle shows that day is coming soon.

let the flaming begin. :lol:
As Jayson said, it's a matter of perspective, although I put different meaning in these words: unlike him, I, being a Christian, do believe in objective good and bad (and lots of other things objective, for that matter http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_wink-1.gif), and that forms my perspective.

A man, in this light, does not amount to the sum of his actions, and the soul is bigger than its state taken in every particular moment. We are not what we did, and we are not what we were yesterday; true repentance is a concept that is very easy to misunderstand and ridicule, but if there's a book where the meaning and the emotional constituent of repentance is made clear, it's the Dark Tower. If you remember how Roland felt about what he did, I don't know how you still can call him a child-killer (as for him being a rapist, I frankly don't know what is meant - my memory may fail me, though; as for him being a murderer - well, you might call so Joan of Arc, too, or any soldier). I hate the elitist, Ubermensch idea of gunslingers with all my heart, but all Roland was doing during the whole series was overcoming it in his soul. Once again: if he is not a good man, who the fuck is?

Letti

10-24-2008, 12:25 AM

Be careful with the spoilers, my friends. ;)

It's really interesting to read your feelings and opinions about this thing.
There is one thing I would like to add: Rosa said what she said because she herself is a really good person. And she is open. I am sure she always tries to see the good side of the people and although she felt the darkness in Roland she knew very well that nobody was perfect on this Earth.
We all have darkness inside the question is if we fight with it or give up and live with it.
I think there were periods in Roland's life when he didn't mind the darkness inside him moreover he was happy with it because it made him feel more alive and it gave him energy to go on, for example to hunt the Man in Black.
But during his long journey he realized how sick and rotten it ha made him inside and he started to fight with it. And it's a big thing.

(By darkness I mean all the native feelings and features of the one.)

Wuducynn

10-24-2008, 05:37 AM

Letti gives great thread. :harrier:

ManOfWesternesse

10-24-2008, 05:49 AM

Letti gives great thread. :harrier:

:wtf:

The Lady of Shadows

10-24-2008, 08:19 AM

just because roland repents doing it doesn't mean he didn't do it. the fact is he killed jake. he dropped him. the fact is he murdered every person in the town of tull, children included (and there's no sign that he repents that).

as for the rape, he raped sylvia pittston with the gun of his father.

you can repent your actions but that doesn't mean you didn't do them.

i just don't think roland is a good man - YET. but i think the books clearly show that he is becoming a good man with every cycle that gan sends him on.

ETA: sorry about the spoiler letti my dear. i'll be more careful next time, i promise!

Jean

10-24-2008, 08:25 AM

you can repent your actions but that doesn't mean you didn't do them.
No, but, as I said, within my system of views, the man is not reducible to his actions, nor does his soul equal itself at any given moment of time.

jayson

10-24-2008, 08:27 AM

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense. Regardless of how either of us views the depopulation of Tull, I still think the question at hand here is Rosa's perception of Roland, not our own. We are privy to more information than Rosa.

The Lady of Shadows

10-25-2008, 08:26 PM

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense. Regardless of how either of us views the depopulation of Tull, I still think the question at hand here is Rosa's perception of Roland, not our own. We are privy to more information than Rosa.

you have an excellent point jayson, and i need to remember it. this is from rosa's perception. and in her view, he stepped in when he really didn't have to and is trying to rid her town and its people of a grave and dangerous threat.

also, she sees him for the man he was when he came to the town. all she sees is the growth he's already gone through.

thank you for pointing this out to me. :rose:

jayson

10-26-2008, 03:50 AM

You're quite welcome my turtle friend. :)

LadyHitchhiker

10-26-2008, 04:15 AM

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

What about poor Alice who only wanted a little loving???

Brainslinger

10-27-2008, 04:47 AM

TS, I don't disagree with you, with the exception of the statement that he murdered everyone in Tull. He shot people who were attacking him. That's not murder, it's self-defense.

What about poor Alice who only wanted a little loving???

And the guys he gunned down as they ran away?

I understand why he did it. He was in full gunslinger mode at that point, the battle rage was upon him.

That doesn't make it any less murder though.

Hbgunslinger

10-27-2008, 09:12 PM

I in his position would have done the same (meaning gunning down the ones running away) I would do this for the main reason of, I wouldn't want them running away and then having the chance to get it back together and then try to attack me again. If they made the initial move to attack me they would die wether running or advancing I wouldn't allow them the chance. It might be "murder" however looking at it from the viewpoint of personal preservation I can understand his actions.
As for what Rosa said to him I do believe she meant exactly what she said as alot of others had said here. Roland is in a way a good man just cold. (that doesn't make sense to me but in a way it's the only way I can say what I feel.:orely:)

jayson

10-28-2008, 05:28 AM

I in his position would have done the same (meaning gunning down the ones running away) I would do this for the main reason of, I wouldn't want them running away and then having the chance to get it back together and then try to attack me again. If they made the initial move to attack me they would die wether running or advancing I wouldn't allow them the chance. It might be "murder" however looking at it from the viewpoint of personal preservation I can understand his actions.

My thoughts exactly. Once they attacked, that was their undoing. Given the fact that this was a mob there were no guarantees for Roland that they weren't running to just go around the corner and get something else to attack him with or sneak up behind him or whatever. Once the shooting starts, Roland's policy is always "no quarter" and when an entire town attacks you, I see little wrong with such a policy.

The same goes for Allie. She came to attack with all the rest of the brainwashed lunatics of Tull. What was Roland supposed to do, talk her down from lunacy and hope everybody else just waited for them to palaver before they attacked again.

If you attack a gunslinger, you should expect to get shot.

Brainslinger

10-28-2008, 05:42 AM

The same goes for Allie. She came to attack with all the rest of the brainwashed lunatics of Tull. What was Roland supposed to do, talk her down from lunacy and hope everybody else just waited for them to palaver before they attacked again.

She didn't come to the attack, she was taken hostage. Roland just shot her down with the rest. Interestingly, the newer version of the Gunslinger allowed for the fact she wanted to die, having just unlocked the secrets of the beyond from (Nort?) but she certainly wasn't party to the attack, although insane in her own way.

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.

Not that I disagree with Rosa's assessment either, but as I said in the other posts, I think she may have said it to bring out the good 'part' of him, as in give him a focus to that side of his nature so he would go on to be good in future. (Not sure that makes sense the way I've written it.)

Jean

10-28-2008, 05:52 AM

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.
I, on the contrary, think that Roland's actions in the first book, and some of later, too, were, if not unforgivable, totally unjustifiable; which doesn't prevent him from having become - or having been - a good man. All his evil doings come, as it is often the case, from his innocence, which, in its turn, stems from almost total a-morality of his eclectic background. He was raised as an Ubermensch, quasi-demi-god, an upper being, in a society where all conherence of cultural context was lost. He tried his best to redeem his humanity as a historic being, and to my mind succeeded.

Brainslinger

10-28-2008, 05:55 AM

Ah, but justifiable and understandable aren't necessary the same thing are they? (Although they're a short hop away a lot of the time.)

jayson

10-28-2008, 05:56 AM

Brainslinger (I always type that out bc I don't want to abbreviate your member name to BS :P) - I am not crystal clear in my recollection of the entire Tull sequence, but you are likely correct about Allie. So maybe I will concede he could have killed one less person in Tull.

Jean - interesting perspective. What do you think Roland should have done when the mob attacked him?

Jean

10-28-2008, 05:59 AM

I think he should have died.

jayson

10-28-2008, 06:07 AM

Well it would have made for a much shorter series, that's for sure. :lol:

Jean

10-28-2008, 06:12 AM

Well it would have made for a much shorter series, that's for sure. :lol:
I have to admit that this consideration did cross my mind http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_tongue.gif

flaggwalkstheline

10-28-2008, 07:47 PM

well she may think roland is a good man but Farson is The Good Man...

anyway i think that part of the series is rolands redemption by way of his ka-tet (ie family) which is what makes the ending so cruel, he becomes soulless again, in order to gain back his soul he damns himself, its a ka-tastic catch 22

Wuducynn

10-29-2008, 12:49 PM

well she may think roland is a good man but Farson is The Good Man...

anyway i think that part of the series is rolands redemption by way of his ka-tet (ie family) which is what makes the ending so cruel, he becomes soulless again, in order to gain back his soul he damns himself, its a ka-tastic catch 22

I think having the Horn of Eld with him in the next loop means he is not souless again but has actually progressed.

Hbgunslinger

10-29-2008, 09:09 PM

I totally agree Roland's actions were largely understandable (although the Allie death scenes still strikes me as rather cold) but that doesn't make him less a murderer.
I, on the contrary, think that Roland's actions in the first book, and some of later, too, were, if not unforgivable, totally unjustifiable; which doesn't prevent him from having become - or having been - a good man. All his evil doings come, as it is often the case, from his innocence, which, in its turn, stems from almost total a-morality of his eclectic background. He was raised as an Ubermensch, quasi-demi-god, an upper being, in a society where all conherence of cultural context was lost. He tried his best to redeem his humanity as a historic being, and to my mind succeeded.

Jean brings up a very good point here (as always). He was raised to in a way to kill first then don't ask questions if being attacked. I wonder if he would have been even colder if lets say he waited longer to go to the test of manhood against Cort. Also if he Never met up with Susan that night on his ride while she was enroute back from Rheas shack. In a way if he had never gone to the test early he most likely would have never been sent to Mejis anyways or if he had it problably would have been sent at a later time. Maybe even After Jonas and the Big Coffin hunters had Left with The Good Mans horses and supplies/oil. Then everything would have changed for Roland in a much much different way.

All Hail brings up a very good point as well. With his restarting with the horn who knows how Tull went down. Maybe Walter didn't Raise Nort from death and set the ambush trap the way hid did.

Also Jean when you said he should have died I actually had to re read that twice to make sure my eyes where seeing that correctly.
This also makes me wonder if he Had he just shot Sylvia Pittston (or however you spell her name) would the ambush gone down the way it did????

Jean

10-30-2008, 12:33 AM

HB, you are the first man in the world so far who presented to me a satisfactory justification of Susan Delgado... Without her, or without all that story, some important seeds - that after Mejis events were dormant for long but later on blossomed into flowers of compassion and love - might have never been planted. I never even thought in that direction, now looks like I have to, and maybe even have to reread W&G (though God knows I don't want to).

And yes, I think he should have died; I suspect it surpasses the limits of the present thread, but I believe this has been brought about elsewhere, too.

Hbgunslinger

10-30-2008, 01:11 AM

I've thought about that several times actually, everything would have been extremely different.

Delah

09-08-2009, 10:43 AM

I think the wonder of this quote is that it can have so many interpretations.

The reader who knows about Susan/Tull/Jake etc: Boy, what an ironic statement.

Rosa: Sees Roland as a brave man who has agreed to save the town's children at risk of his own life and his tet, means every word.

I think the key is Roland's response, which indicates that he doesn't think he's a good man (although he may have appreciated hearing it): "I've always had the fastest hands, but at being good, I've always been a little slow."

I think its interesting to compare this quote with one from Jake and Benny when they're discussing Roland. Benny says that Roland scares him, and Jake admits that Roland scares him sometimes too. Coming from Jake, who loves Roland devotedly, I think that says a lot.

LadyHitchhiker

09-08-2009, 11:52 AM

As far as what Roland can do as a gunslinger, maybe that is seen as some people see magic or nature, it's not good or bad. His ability is not good or bad, it is the person he wants to be that is good or bad, and he wants to be a good man, so she sees him as a good man.