Then what does "planned out in advance" mean? You're saying he did have it all planned out in advance, I take it.

No I don't think he had most of the details. But I do believe he had most of the general ideas. Somewhat beyond the "well this was luke's father, he and ben were buddies. They fought in the clone wars". Lucas had talked about some thoughts on back story in Rolling Stone interviews and such. Leading me to believe he did have some general ideas.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

My question is, once he released ANH, did he have ESB and ROTJ planned out?

Probably not entirely detailed, but most of the general layout, I'm pretty sure he had. So yes and no. Yes he had the general story done, but not the finer details.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

He obviously started writing them sometime around 1996 IIRC. This goes to show that it wasn't like he just dusted off some old notebook from the 80's that he just had to tweak a little to make the screenplays for the prequels.

Never said he did, but he did obviously have a few general ideas to run off of.
and yeah, he started writing Phantom in '95.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Yes! That's exactly right, and I agree. But some people don't see this, and they take Lucas's quotes where he's saying he "always intended" and using it to prove that all of Star Wars, including the prequels was "planned out in advance." If "planned out in advance" means in the three years before the movie comes out he wrote stuff, well duh. That's totally different than saying he had the basic stories for the Prequels ready back in the 80's. By all counts he had a few rough ideas summurized sorta like this, "Luke's Father, Vader, and Obi-Wan Kenobi were young Jedi Knights and good friends who fought in the Clone Wars in the glory days of the Republic, until Vader turned evil, killed Luke's father and helped the new Empire hunt down and eliminate the Jedi."

Yeah. I do however believe he had general ideas that stayed pretty much the same through out, or changed a few to meet the new ideas/things he couldn't do because of limitation/etc. If anyone believes he had every single detail done up right at once, they are naive. I admit I've not seen/read every Lucas interview but I never really got the idea that he meant that. Perhaps that's just my thinking "he can't obviously be that out of it/full of ****.", and giving him the benefit of the doubt. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

That little bit of backstory is a far cry from a synopsis of each of the prequel films.

Yeah, but I don't hink anyone with a rational mind truely believes he had every single detail planned out. He did carry over quite a few of his discarded ideas into the prequels. Wookiee battle, but that was mostly because he wanted to do that in RoTJ but felt it'd be best to cut the guys in half and make ewoks. Whatever his reasons were are really no concern at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

And it's clear that ROTJ was a bit of a rehash of Star Wars, using a few left over ideas that he didn't use in the first movie due to lack of budget and the fear that his movie wouldn't make money. He made up the rest.

And ESB a bit of rehash from ANH. They basically expanded on the stuff given in the previous episodes.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

No, I'm not saying it's wrong for a person to change their mind. Rather, I'm countering the common fan urban legend (fueled by Lucas himself incidentally via his comments over the years) that Lucas had all this stuff planned out in advance around the time that Star Wars was created and that he "always intended" every little change that has been made to the movies in that time.

My apologies then. Seems I misunderstood what you were saying.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Right, and that's not what these people say about Lucas. They say he had it all planned in advance.

And they're morons. The guy never had details planned out, only layout and general plot design.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Lucas says he always intended this or that. He didn't, clearly. His intentions changed, and his mind changed, and he made stuff up as he went along. Nothing wrong with that, only that it contradicts what actually happened in the creative process of Star Wars.

Well it'd help me to have some context to this. Perhaps through all the fanboy battles some of the stuff has been taken out of context.
Not that it's your fault or anything, nor mine.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Frankly, yes. Unless he's inventing a new definition of "always intended" and "had it all planned out in advance."

*note* I just realized I gave an incorrect analogy, thus misrepresenting my thoughts. So sorry for leading you on to the wrong track.

As I've said, I think he had the general ideas mapped out, not specific details. I think that's good enough to qualify for him being within the lines to say he had it mapped out, just not with details. If the guy's saying he had all the details drawn out exactly, then I agree he's BSing right there.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Now on Lucas's side, he claims that fans and interviewers misunderstood him and misquoted him when it comes to things like the number of movies he "always intended" to make. The quotes are still around, but that's another kettle of fish.

The 9 movies controversy was from Kurtz and some of the other guys before they realized they could get the story done in less. So... that's pretty much moot.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

But it does help to illustrate the disconnect between what Lucas says about his creative process and what actually occurs. The fans took him at his word, so he said that they just misunderstood him.

Well taking second hand information that states 9 episodes were written and that it was all used and compressed into 3 with a bit of alteration, does seem like misunderstanding to me.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

That doesn't make Star Wars any less amazing or make me like it less. But it does punch holes in the idea that he just wrote one big story, chopped it up into six parts and served it to us more or less how he thought of it back in the late 70's.

Yeah, but that's not the thing. He wrote one big story, chopped it into 3 stories, did a bit of work to make it work and feel better (second death star was non-existant in the original singular version of the story, but he wanted a second death star to blow up in RoTJ to keep in line with some of the stuff he originally drew out).

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

So if you want to let Lucas completely "off the hook", then all these quotes are wrong, and the fans are wrong about Lucas. He made it up as he went along.

Not exactly letting Lucas off the hook. Just saying I don't think he showed up on set and BS'd things up as he went along like people make it seem.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

No. I'm faulting him for leading people to believe the myth that he had it all planned in advance.

Why? Fault them for being gullible. The blame really is at them, after all.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

It could be he's just not good at giving interviews.

Well, in truth... he kinda sucks at it.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Whether or not it's Lucas's fault, it's a fact that there is a common fan notion that he had it all planned in advance, when this is clearly not the case.

Indeed, he merely had general ideas, general story outline. But lacked nearly all the details.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

He's only 61 years old. As far as I know he hasn't been diagnosed with senile dementia (he could have kept it a secret from the public of course).

Aye. But you listen to him talk sometimes, it's like he kinda has a blur in his thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

While this is a common accusation by fans who disliked the prequels and special editions ("that old Lucas is getting senile, he doesn't know his own movies, he doesn't have it anymore!" etc), it's a horrible excuse for anything.

Not giving excuse, just saying it could be why he rambles on, and gives misinformation. Just merely throwing out thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Wait, what does this have to do with what we were talking about? Your typical Star Wars fan and Lucas himself have been saying for 20 some years that he "had it all planned out in advance." So this isn't some gaffe brought on by extreme old age. It's been a 26 year mistake I guess.

Well for the OT, he pretty much did, minus a few of the details. Like the twins thing. Who knows if he really planned the Vader=Father thing before finalizing ANH. The twins thing was pretty obviously thought up along the way. Where along the way? Perhaps while filming Empire, perhaps after. We don't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

So do you feel that by admitting that Lucas made stuff up as he went along that you are betraying him? You're "biting the hand that feeds" you?

No, no no. What I'm saying is I'm not gonna fault the guy for being human. He gave me something to enjoy, despite flaws. So I'm not gonna say the guys full of ****, without something conclusive. Does the guy say some things that aren't true? Sure. But then what director/actor/screenwriter/etc. doesn't? It's what people do, sometimes you just gotta toot your own horn.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

That's a rather odd attitude don't you think? People usually classify fanboys as people who can see no flaws in the stuff they like. But this isn't even an issue of flaws, it's whether or not he came up with this stuff in a series of inspirations over a long period of time, or that he had it all "planned out in advance."

As I've said many times in this post. I think he did have it planned in advanced. He had the general idea, plotline, basic stuff already thought up and laid out. Details were yet to be added however, because he wasn't sure where the filming process would take him.

“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”

Okay thanks for that post (sorry for accidentally deleting our little debate, that was a stupid mistake on my part.. I wish I knew if it were possible to undelete it).

Your post really helps clarify what you were saying. I guess the part that still confuses me is saying he had it "all planned out in advance" and yet he had only some vague ideas and change just about everything. Doesn't that make it meaningless?

Because he originally "planned" to make three trilogies, of nine films, including sequels. But as you got away from the classic trilogy (or rather ANH + some bonus material that made it into the second two movies with lots of new filler) it was more and more vague and such. Most of the backstory seems to have appeared in the novelisations of the movies. But not all of that made it into the prequels, some of it was changed. And what little was known about the "sequels" that he has no plans to make as he's said many times recently, hasn't shown up in the EU that I'm aware of.

I seem to recall some interview bits of him talking about "Mandalorians." That survived in Jango Fett being the donor for the Clones that became the Stormtroopers. But none of us thought they would be the "good guys" in AOTC.

Anyway, I found a forum with a lot of Lucas quotes taken from various interviews over the years. You can read them and see if it sounds like Lucas changed his mind or spelled out any ideas, etc. A lot of them I'd forgotten about myself.

He talks about the saga in general, the prequels, the sequels, the three trilogies, etc.

Okay thanks for that post (sorry for accidentally deleting our little debate, that was a stupid mistake on my part.. I wish I knew if it were possible to undelete it).

S'alright, we all make mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Your post really helps clarify what you were saying. I guess the part that still confuses me is saying he had it "all planned out in advance" and yet he had only some vague ideas and change just about everything. Doesn't that make it meaningless?

I think it all kinda comes down to where you draw the line on what makes it planned out. I have come to know that I like to explore, so when I take a road trip to say... Austin I say we'll head I-35, see what we want to do along the way. No details just a general idea and kind of play it by ear, see where all the ideas that come up take us. Perhaps that's what Lucas did, gave himself some free space to change should he want/need to.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Because he originally "planned" to make three trilogies, of nine films, including sequels. But as you got away from the classic trilogy (or rather ANH + some bonus material that made it into the second two movies with lots of new filler) it was more and more vague and such. Most of the backstory seems to have appeared in the novelisations of the movies. But not all of that made it into the prequels, some of it was changed. And what little was known about the "sequels" that he has no plans to make as he's said many times recently, hasn't shown up in the EU that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I guess the way I see it is he's just kinda said "you know what? Forget it. I look back and I don't think that was such a good idea". Discards stuff, probably will use these in other films. He's always scrapping ideas from one project and digging them back up and using in his other films.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

I seem to recall some interview bits of him talking about "Mandalorians." That survived in Jango Fett being the donor for the Clones that became the Stormtroopers. But none of us thought they would be the "good guys" in AOTC.

Yeah, I remember some of the talk when we first heard things about the clones. Some people who didn't get a lot of the spoilers were thinking "This is the introduction of the stormtroopers, here's the downfall of the republic." which was partially true, but they weren't the bad guys, yet

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Anyway, I found a forum with a lot of Lucas quotes taken from various interviews over the years. You can read them and see if it sounds like Lucas changed his mind or spelled out any ideas, etc. A lot of them I'd forgotten about myself.

He talks about the saga in general, the prequels, the sequels, the three trilogies, etc.