September 19, 2012

In 20 Muslim countries. The cartoons, published today in a satirical French publication called Charlie Hebdo, "show the Prophet Mohammed naked and refer to the incendiary US-made film which has been fueling deadly unrest among Muslim communities for over a week."

ADDED: This post and the earlier post today about David Letterman saying "You haven't seen me naked" to Barack Obama make me want to quote this verse from an old Bob Dylan song:

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked

Hundred dollar plates? Man, that really is an old song. After the Letterman interview, Obama attended a $40,000-per-plate dinner!

The Socialist French government said that the newspaper absolutely has the right to print the cartoons. With out any equivocation as well, it seems.

Looks like their socialists are more in tune with the rights of man than our socialists. Maybe because from living with millions of them, the French realise that Muslims won't just leave you alone if you protect their feelings.

Time for E.D.M.D. II. The free world needs nip this in the bud right now and join together to show how stupid the very idea is of controlling the world with your rage. It should be disrespect 24/7 from so many directions that they can't pick a target and get any traction.

You better believe the French are gonna; close their embassies. They didn't elect someone like Zero, who the Muj immediately took a liking too, and as such brought the US and them closer together. If only the French had someone like Zero.

I'm tempted to subscribe to Charlie Hebdo in Zero's name just to show Zero that even cheese eating surrender monkey's have more back bone than he does.

France closes embassies in anticipation of of cartoon backlash. Demonstrating a situational awareness greater than the State Department of the United States, granted they have the additional information of these riots.

It has nothing to do with fear. Annoyance is a better word.

They're pulled back to France and they're up there on the parapet yelling down, "Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

I'm a lapsed catholic because I never understood why they got so bent out of shape with the "Jesus was God, but a man", and when I'd point out things men did then as a matter of course they would say, "But not Jesus! He was God!" Maybe I just had poor debating partners, and if I had better I would not be lapsed.

Anyway, I never understood the brouhaha of someone suggesting Jesus was married. Everyone was married back then. Hell, I know people who are shocked at learning Jesus had siblings.

@PaulieZee

It would have worked too if Marvin the Martian hadn't purloined the PU-238.

France is also closing schools in 20 countries, which made me realize that although embassies may be somewhat protected, schools most likely have no protection, what a horrific thought, attacks on French schools, because a French newspaper needed to publish anti Muslim cartoons, Vive le Free Speech!

France is also closing schools in 20 countries, which made me realize that although embassies may be somewhat protected, schools most likely have no protection, what a horrific thought, attacks on French schools, because a French newspaper needed to publish anti Muslim cartoons, Vive le Free Speech!

Allie will defend to her death, your right to say things that other people do not disagree with.

How far do we go to make sure we don't offend the crazies? Do you think they will ever be satisfied? Do you think by merely refraining from printing some cartoons, they will back off, or will that make them bolder?

Barry D, freedom and foolishness are not the same thing. It's simply foolish to disturb a hornets nest in the heat of the summer, wait until after a frost, when the time is right and the neighborhood kids won't get stung when the hornets swarm.

AllieOop wrote:I hope the Muslim hordes don't get confused and attack the American embassy, around lunchtime because they smell French Fries.

Well, what if they did? Or what if they attributed this latest attack to something caused by America. I mean, an Egyptian making an independent movie means attacking a US embassy. What is the correlation? Doesn't the correlation only have to be in the mind of the offended? Does the correlation have to be remotely rational? For all I know, this could fuel more attacks on US embassies anyway, simply because that's who the jihadis want to blame.

I'm a lapsed catholic because I never understood why they got so bent out of shape with the "Jesus was God, but a man", and when I'd point out things men did then as a matter of course they would say, "But not Jesus! He was God!" Maybe I just had poor debating partners, and if I had better I would not be lapsed.

Carnifex, I'd be interested in knowing what "things" men did that your debating partners insisted Jesus wouldn't do. After all, the Church has always taught that Jesus was fully God and fully man, like us in all things except sin.

So I always figured that at some point in the carpentry shop while He was making a spice rack, He'd hit His thumb with a hammer and yell "ELVIS H. PRESLEY!"

Allie is right that it might be stupid to pick a fight with Islam just to be disagreeable, considering the reaction you'll probably get. But all ideas have a right to be critiqued. And in the analogy of the hornets nest being equated with Islam,when would it ever be winter?What other hornets nests shouldn't you kick if they are liable to turn around and sting you? Would you give up abortion or pro choice utternances if by doing so people started getting murdered for making them? What about if you talked about the president and got a bullet to the head. If the response to an utterance is your murder, then any utterance could be the equivalent of kicking the hornets nest. In which case, you should probalby take a vow of silence. That way you can be sure the crazies aren't going to gut you for speaking the truth.

Also, if the first reaction to any criticism is a jihad, maybe somebody NEEDS to poke that hornets nest because we should not tolerate murder as a response to ideas that someone doesn't want to hear.

Pasta, yes they most certainly DO know right from wrong, but they chose wrong. Tell me how will you MAKE them choose right? You can EXPECT them to act civilized all you want, doesn't mean it will happen.

Is it unreasonable to ask intelligent people in civilized nations not to poke the hornets nest so soon after innocent people were murdered?

List of things I was told Jesus never did(this is an incomplete list, I have neither the time nor the desire to replicate conversations 50 years old)

shit, piss, fuck, masterbate, fart, look at women, get drunk, slack off, play hookie, fly a kite, etc...You know, they plethora of crap people do. If nothing else shouldn't Jesus have rubbed one out to say he understood humanity better? Or is Jesus like a ivory tower academian. I know if someone is going to say that they are human, then they should at least "try" to be human, not some little tight ass that doesn't allow fun, or that we, all of us are very fallable.

My idea of Jesus, and God, is that they love us not because we are perfect, but that we are not.

Thanks for the good analogy. But, you need to have dealt with hornets nests to really understand it.

1st. You don't wait. If you have a hornets nest near kids. You get rid it. Waiting is stupid and just gets kids stung.

2nd. You suit up, grab some hornet spray, and get rid of the nest. Problem solved.

So, you did have a good analogy.

Anyway, if words send you into a killing frenzy then you are not fully sane. And hiding words from you will not make you sane again.

So, how should we deal with insane people? The same people who are innocent until they actually kill someone? Hmm, you would think that we would have pondered about such things in our many years of civilization.

You poke around so you figure out where you need to spray the Raid. You can't make people act like civilized human beings, but you can permanently stop them from acting like savages, if you can find them.

I, too, have a connection to the Holocaust, but it's more direct -- my parents are immigrants and in their late 70s. My father came within a hair's breadth of never seeing his 10th birthday.

A few dead Nazis in 1935 would have meant tens of millions fewer dead everybody else by 1945.

I don't know what the timing is, but I know that one day, tomorrow is too late.

Is it unreasonable to ask intelligent people in civilized nations not to poke the hornets nest so soon after innocent people were murdered?

Yes! You have to look at the larger picture here, and stop dehumanizing your enemies. They are not insects, they are not forces of nature, they are human beings trying to accomplish some goal. The worst possible thing we could do is indicate in any way whatsoever that rioting and killing are effective means to achieving their goals. Ideally, this means that we must do the opposite of what they want, whenever they employ these methods. More reasonably, it means we must not alter our own behavior in response. Otherwise, what they learn is that terrorism works.

RE: hornet nests-- Pastafarian, I'm surprised your shotgun technique worked. I recently had a nest (yes, right where kids walk by every day) and was stung twice myself, twice, while first I tried to hack it apart with a shovel. Then I attacked it with a water pressure washer. Hornets still buzzing. Then I poured about half a gallon of gasoline on it, and set it on fire. It was really on fire. I came back half an hour later: fire out; hornets still buzzing.

Michael, what's a few French kids, just so Frenchies can thumb their noses at murdering hordes of Muslims, it's sooooo worth the sacrifice, right?

"Give me liberty or give me death." That's the kind of talk that gets people killed. So what if the British taxed us without representation? If you get upset about that, the next thing you know British troops will be firing into Boston crowds.

And what was the big deal about Czechoslovakia and the Sudetenland? Really, if Chamberlain hadn't given away at Munich, we'd probably have had a world war.

***

Freedom isn't free. Appeasement often costs as much or more than resistance.

Of course, if freedom isn't important to people, they won't miss it as they give it up, a slice at a time.

Pauline christianity has always stimied me. "Hi! I'm Paul! Yes I was driven out of Jerusalem by the original disciples of Jesus. It's true that I never even met the man, but I did meet the Lord! Halleluyah! And the Lord told me that Everybodies saved! Not just this little band of Hebe's lost in the desert. Yes, I know I became head of the church after the Roman's exiled all the other Jews from Jerusalem, but hey! His will works in mysterious ways!" For some reason has always troubled me. I'll deal with my doubts when I meet God, we'll have a talk, a few laughs(at my expense no doubt, but I got some questions about platypi) please don't try to "save" me.

As for Allie the the Muj, the Society For The Perpetually Aggrieved is perpetually aggrieved. Mocking and derision is better than bullets and death, which is the only other response they deserve. Besides, they welcome death. It means they cease to live in their hellish society. Mocking and derision is ever so much more painful, and effective for dealing with them.

You mark where the nest is and a good clear approach to it. Then you wait until after dark, when the hornets are all inside bullshitting with the other hornets about how successful a day they had intimidating the stupid humans. You walk up to the nest unnoticed and spray Dragon right into the entrance and soak down the sides. You kill every last one of the muthafucking hornets.

Bees:

You leave them alone because their nature is that they prefer peace over conflict.

Winter:

In the winter, gravid hornets sleep deep under stone and bark. You can't get to them.

The post yesterday on Christopher Hitchens got me thinking. It would dismay me to no end if we had to end up relying only on "scientific" socialists, leninist commies,and frenchy jacobins to defend the West against having to kowtow to the religious buttwipery of mohammedanist thugs. The American political class has deteriorated so, it seems.

I would actually enjoy that Allie. I used to troll bars as a much younger man with singularly bad results though. In crowds(which I don't like) I give off such menacing vibes, I can sit in a crowded bar, and no one will dare sit beside me. Gave it up as a bad habit finally. Then met the wife, who was either too stupid to notice my general atavism, or perceptive enough to see hrough the layers of hurt and angst. I prefer to believe the later.

Asfar as what Jesus did or didn't do - well, I wasn't there with Him, but I'm pretty sure He dropped a deuce or had to drain the vein once in a while (fully man, remember?). As for some of the others - well, He was without sin, but that doesn't mean He wasn't tempted. I'm sure that if Mary Magdalene had a stunning rack, He'd have appreciated it, but no more. Still, at the end, one never really knows.

As far as Paul. . .well, that's a kettle of fish I'll leave to people with better theological insight than my own.

EMD said...Allie - "Is it unreasonable to ask intelligent people in civilized nations not to poke the hornets nest so soon after innocent people were murdered?"

So you favor conditioning your hornet Muslims to feel rewarded by their actions, basically.

-------------Cultivating good relations with other countries means respecting their deeply held values and ideals - not imposing our "system" or what our preachers or internal legal documents want - on them.

It is about trying to avoid insult. The world has shrunk and we are interconnected by communications.The world is not as the Founder's, trodding through piles of animal dung in powdered wigs in isolation from most of the world - saw it then.

People that champion the man that stirred up the latest hornet's nest seem to come down on the need to put America another 10-15 trillion in debt with a war 30 times bigger and more lethal tha Iraq ...with a nation-building phase involving 1.4 billion people vs. 22 million.What could go wrong???

Or, people that argue our Holy Constitution is so ideologically important and absolutist in "Rights" - that it is worth defending Copt crook Nakoula's free speech, along with the free speech rights of bin Laden, Al-Awlaki, and all the Jihadist websites...

And if not that, we have a contingent that rather than tell a Copt crook to STFU...would like to see America withdraw from the world. Shut our embassies down, abandon the resources we would like to trade for to China to have the decision making powers over instead. And if that happens...withdrawal from a Global presence a natural consequence is we must abandon Europe, Asia, Israel as we retreat within our Borders to enjoy the pure stuff the men in powdering wigs intended us to blindly live by.

"France closes embassies in anticipation of of cartoon backlash. Demonstrating a situational awareness greater than the State Department of the United States, granted they have the additional information of these riots."

That scrap of papyrus couldn't have said something like--"Jesus' wife is His Father's mission on Earth," huh? There are only a handful of words left to see, but it couldn't have said something that is consistent with the story we know, could it?

One of the many problems with Allie's position is that these riots don't just happen because Muslim 1 sees a video/cartoon/whatever and tells Muslim 2 who then tells Muslims 3 & 4, who then tell four more Muslims etc, and then there is a riot.

No, there are radical Muslim leaders in the background who are picking their times and places with some larger strategy in mind, say, the commemoration of 9-11 after the killing of a top al-Qaeda leader.

There will always be something in the West for Muslims to be violently upset about when their leaders tell them to be upset. This goes all the way back to Muhammad, who would be peaceful and charming when he was outgunned, or set his followers to war of beheading when they were strong. There is always a suitable pretext for Muslim violence.

So how do we meet this? By self-censoring? By enacting our own blasphemy laws? By blaming ourselves when Muslim fanatics riot and kill people? By consulting with our local Allie to see if it's all right to say something critical of Islam?

Creely, I don't disagree with you( first three paragraphs), It wasn't solely the movie, I don't know of anyone who believes that, I certainly don't. I guess you missed all the comments from yesterday, where several commenters, including myself, said the exact same thing as you did just now.

Carnifex, there's a good book by A.N. Wilson on Paul. It's to be taken with a grain of salt, as one reviewer puts it:

"Wilson provides some excellent (and some fatally flawed) insights into the social and political atmosphere of first century Palestine. However, his conclusions and assumptions are not based on a full survey of the available research. As a result he asks the reader to join him in a leap of faith to support his image of Paul as a psychologically unstable, opportunistic businessman, trying to deal with the guilt he felt for his part (yes Wilson says Paul may have been active in the trial of Jesus)in the death of a Jewish prophet. Schweitzer calls this: carrying water a great distance in a leaky bucket to water the garden that sits beside an abundant stream.Several questions are not answered prehaps intentionally:

Why would Paul, a self declared Pharisee (Shammite) be in the employment of the Temple Guard, a group the Shammites viewed as compromised and corrupt?

Why did Paul speak of his Damascus experience as a resurrection citing, meaning physical body appearance, instead of using language to denote it as the "vision" Wilson suggests? Pharisees would have used language like angel or ghost to descibe a vision, Paul was transformed not because he had a vision of Jesus, but because he saw a resurrected Jesus. Wilson apparently misses the distinction, but it would not be missed by a Pharisee. Visions can happen anytime, resurrection carried a definate implication that YHWH was finally acting through the promised Messiah. This is what changed Paul's life."

But the value of the book, that points to him being an agent of God, in my atheist opinion, is Paul's love for his flock and his intimiate understanding of being a sinner covered by God's grace.

Stephen Emmel, a professor of Coptology at the University of Muenster who was on the international advisory panel that reviewed the 2006 discovery of the Gospel of Judas, said the text accurately quotes Jesus as saying "my wife." But he questioned whether the document was authentic.

"There's something about this fragment in its appearance and also in the grammar of the Coptic that strikes me as being not completely convincing somehow," he said in an interview on the sidelines of the conference.

Another participant at the congress, Alin Suciu, a papyrologist at the University of Hamburg, was more blunt.

"I would say it's a forgery. The script doesn't look authentic" when compared to other samples of Coptic papyrus script dated to the 4th century, he said.

How do you do that? When you google your name the pic on the side was the lame thing that some hater must of put up, but now it's pretty seductive photo. Much better.

TITS

And I love Paris and the movie J'taime Paris-one of my favs-everyone should see it.

I have had some hot sex with Muzzies in Paris that have a French Accent-it's the dichotomy of that sex that I like the most-Muzzie, you except Durka Durka, but instead you get, because he has lived in France all his like Je tu bien, sucky sucky.

That's why I love my hubby so. He is an Indian and they can be very 7 11 worker but he was raised in UK so the British Accent set against the backdrop of the brown Indian is such a nice contrast. You expect him to talk like husker dusker du but instead he is all brill and lou and British.

The gnostics first glommed on to the Jews. Until the Jews threatened to wipe them from the Earth. When Christianity appeared, they were barnacles on that. They always added their own flavor to whatever they hijacked--usually making "evil" the co-hero of the story because they believed in their original roots that evil and good and equal and necessary for any story. When "gnostic' means somehow more believable to anyone is beyond me. I'm sure some of their distortions of The Old Testament might be around still. Why doesn't anyone ever compare those two and judge gnostics for what they are worth. Not much.

Thanx...most of my stuff is supposed to be tongue in cheek. Unfortunately, I usually wind up foot in mouth instead. I just want people to recognize that humor is one of God's greatest gifts to us. I mean, look at that whole walking on water thing...You don't think that afterwards he, and the others sat around the campfire drying out Thomas, that they weren't laughing their asses off? It's one of the major flaws I have with Islam. You can't even fly a kite without those fucks getting their panties in a wad. I'll take my Jesus over their Allah any day of the week.

Thank you Miss Deborah, i'll look for it. I'm too old to be swayed by many other peoples opinions anymore. I might be apostate, I might not, it's not for any man to say, only God, when I stand before him.

Jesus at the marriage in Cannaan

Mary--"Jesus!...we're out of wine"Jesus--"Look again"Mary--"Thank you"

One of the hints that Jesus WAS married is this story. The mother of the groom was responsible for the catering back then, yet Mary goes to Jesus with the problem. WHY? Why was Mary involved? Why was Jesus? Inquiring minds want to know!(least that is what I researched, long ago, it may have changed by now)

And how to align the Apocraphia with the bible as we know it today, after all the re-visions down through history? So many questions...I did what I could, learned what I could and made my best guestimate...I'll find out the truth to soon.

Creely, I don't disagree with you( first three paragraphs), It wasn't solely the movie, I don't know of anyone who believes that, I certainly don't. I guess you missed all the comments from yesterday, where several commenters, including myself, said the exact same thing as you did just now.

Allie: I spent much of yesterday hassling with ATT to get my internet back up. Today I get to go back to the ATT store to return the wrong DSL modem that they told me to buy.

Great, then you understand that Nakoula's video was one pretext of many that Muslims leaders could have used to inspire rioting; ergo, Mr. Nakoula is not the problem here, Muslims are.

So what is your solution, other than to complain about the Nakoula pretext? We can't satisfy Muslims without accepting Sharia law. What you also seem to forget is that Muslims are killing people, for example Coptic Christians, regardless.

Aside from continuing to bleat about responsibility, what do you recommend?

Umm, she knew who he was?She was close friends with one or the other families and she felt their anxiety/embarassment for not planning ahead/not being able to afford what was required. As most of us would. I might call the liquor store and put the order on my credit card. Mary had another idea.

Now ask yourself why you always look for zebras, rather than horses when you hear hoofbeats.

Does anyone know of another group of people like the Gnostics, that moved into a new area and abandoned their own culture/religion and absorbed the local variety. I can see that as a positive survival skill to blend in, on one hand. Then, on the other, they always distorted what they absorbed, which was bound to tick off the locals. Why? Any other group fit that description? I'm talking about the original immigrants who probably came from much further East based on what they originally brought with them. Locals joined them in their settlements, so they are another discussion.

I just brought forth the questions. I've resolved them to my satisfaction. Why do you insist that a mountain is molehill? As far as zebra's and horses, maybe I live in Africa...Do you look for fire if there is smoke? Or do you look for a backfiring bus? Occam's razor and all that...Like I said earlier. I...we, will all find out eventually. I'm not worried about it.

AllieOpp. I remain baffled by your view on free speech. It appears to be conceptually something you approve of but something you would modify in practice, depending on the situation. You seem to want to squelch speech in a backward glance way. You would punish the latest movie maker because he is linked with deaths but you would grant a pass to Maher up to the point when Moslems figured out he was mocking them and they went batshit (as they have to do, it being their nature). Then you would punish him? Or would you preempt the mahem by banning his movie? I mean he made the movie to be provocative.

Michael,I wouldn't advocate punishing the movie maker, even if he were responsible for the deaths, unless the FBI investigation turns up information that he colluded with Al Queda, who happen to be our enemy, or some other terrorist group. I did not say he should be prosecuted for being merely a dumbass.

My point has always been that he should not be held up as some sort of hero, making conservatives outraged that he was taken in for questioning. As I said yesterday, all manner of deaths are investigated, car accidents, suicides, homicides, etc. WHY should he be exempt from investigation? If he is innocent of any crime he walks free, still alive, unlike those poor folks at the Embassy and Camp Leatherneck.

Again, it was NOT SOLEY the movie tha caused the attacks, the entire region is a tinder box, why throw a match at it, unless we are prepared to deal with the fire?----------------------Creely, as I said yesterday, either we remove our presence and money from the region, or we act responsibly when we exercise our free speech. I am not advocating forcing anyone to shut the hell up, but can't people act responsibly and realize we are still at war in the region?

Don't have a fucking hissy fit when someone is called in for questions. Don't make criminals, who are also dumbasses into heros for making movies that incite? Is that too much to expect of intelligent civilized Americans?---------------------------Whore, drop dead. Go to the ME and spout your bullshit, coward.

jrberg3 said..."Cultivating good relations with other countries means respecting their deeply held values and ideals"

So Cedarford are rioting and killing people who had nothing to do with the "dis-respecting" part of those other countries deeply held values and ideals?

================Generally, when one people attack another people...the people that pay when reliation starts are not the exact same people involved in the attack that triggered retaliation.Our war with the Japanese was not "The War to find the men of the Pearl Harbor attack Naval Task Force To Bring Them To Justice".

99.9% of the Japs we killed or maimed or destroyed the property of had nothing to do "hands on" with Pearl Harbor or the atacks on our interests in the Philippines or Attu and Kiska or Wake Island.

Are you claiming that there should be that sort of specificity??That our only response to 9/11 should have been a law enforcement exercise to find the people guilty of hands on involvement in 911, and only those people??

Like it or not, what ACTUALLY happens is the Copt crook painted a target on every Americans back same as Yamoto did to each Japanese...It is because no war really tries winnowing out "the truly guilty", as that is impossible, in practical terms..when formulating your retaliation in any struggle.

And Creely the "bleating" I have heard from many folks here the last few days, about this dumb criminal( at best) who made this movie, and his victimhood at the hands of the "brownshirts", made y'all sound like sheep, not I. I'm the sheepdog biting at your heels.

Creely, as I said yesterday, either we remove our presence and money from the region, or we act responsibly when we exercise our free speech. I am not advocating forcing anyone to shut the hell up, but can't people act responsibly and realize we are still at war in the region?

Don't have a fucking hissy fit when someone is called in for questions. Don't make criminals, who are also dumbasses into heros for making movies that incite? Is that too much to expect of intelligent civilized Americans?

-------------------

His actions are heroic.

He's willing to face the possibility of death in order to flip the finger to a shit religion that is all about killing the "infidel". A criminal to be sure, but a hero just the same.

He did something that you or I wouldn't have the guts to do in a million years, and not for sensitivities sake but to save our skins. It's fucking pitiful that you would rather denigrate the conviction of a marked man rather than admit where you fall short. It's a real weakness of character.

Niceness won't stop radical Islam in it's tracks. Their mission has been the same for more than a thousand years: convert or kill. They'll have to be stopped. The war is just beggining.

The world should have been responding to the Coptic's plight to begin with. Perhaps 50% gone? Isn't that why the UN exists? Or do they just install a plaque in the lobby when you are totally wiped out?

SPImmortal, yep what a hero. You don't know who his funders really were, you don't know if his only motive was to make a shitload of money, I bet he didn't give a damn about the Coptic Christians whose lives he just made far more dangerous.

Creeley - Great, then you understand that Nakoula's video was one pretext of many that Muslims leaders could have used to inspire rioting; ergo, Mr. Nakoula is not the problem here, Muslims are.

You seem unable still, to intellectually grasp that there is no SINGLE MAN-SINGLE CAUSE of events. That clashes between peoples, nations, civilizations involve dozens of grievances and causal events. The Rape of Nanking was not a Pretext for war with Japan...but it contributed to the embargo on strategic goods that in turn led to Pearl Harbor which in itself was an attack you could not pin on one person..anymore than saying the events of D-Day were all from a single person.You do not understand the difference between pretext and ammo the enemy eagerly grabs for use against the foe. The Islamists love the ammo the crook Copt gave them, much as we loved the ammo of the Japs stupidly filming themselves lopping off heads of Chinese insurrectionists and putting them on fenceposts. We used that great ammo against the Japs throughout Asia and the Pacific..showing that footage to millions to help inflame them against "Jap beasts".

BTW - Your logic that a kid who sets off a firecracker on a hornets nest at a picnic, who then go out to sting dozens who did not set off the firecracker ....as being all the hornet's fault and not the kids....defies common sense. Hornets do not need much "pretext" to find stinging other creatures is a good time-tested response when they are needlessly disturbed.Part of the responsibility goes to the provoker.

AllieOpp: Thanks for that, but I think you skirted the main point which is the larger principal of free speech and your view of its boundaries. It is irrelevant that the guy who made the movie is a dumb ass. I am not even sure if he was a full fledged member of AQ that his making of the film would qualify as a terrorist act. An interesting question but I think the answer would be that it would not. He might conspire separately to blow something up etc but the making of the film and its content would be exempt.

AllieOpp: Thanks for that, but I think you skirted the main point which is the larger principal of free speech and your view of its boundaries. It is irrelevant that the guy who made the movie is a dumb ass. I am not even sure if he was a full fledged member of AQ that his making of the film would qualify as a terrorist act. An interesting question but I think the answer would be that it would not. He might conspire separately to blow something up etc but the making of the film and its content would be exempt.

Like Allie, I do want to find who the Copt criminal's funders are. It has long been recognized that an Open Societies liberties and institutions can be transformed into weapons to use against that society through subversion.

False flag ops. The Soviets disinformation war that enlisted Hollywood writers, and the NY Times as a mouthpiece during the Ukrainian Famine that starved and butchered 5 million.

I think the truth will come out on the Funders. If not the furious US Government, then through DIscovery in the lawsuits that the deceived actors now suffering career damage and threats to their lives will launch.

Won't it be amusing if we find some Islamist money went into the venture, to help create more ammo against America!!!

Etc., Etc. Why are we even discussing this? How about the big one--Covert or die! Or "Submit or die!" World domination is Doctrine, not an option. There is no "reason" behind any of the attacks. Denying that doesn't make it go away.

He's willing to face the possibility of death in order to flip the finger to a shit religion that is all about killing the "infidel". A criminal to be sure, but a hero just the same.

Hardly heroic. We gave this Copt grifter safe harbor in the US, and safe in Los Angeles behind multiple security barriers - he incited Muslims as payment for our generous sanctuary given.Free to then "show them his finger".Knowing he was safe from the retailiation Americans in frontline embassies and frontline military bases in Muslim countries would suffer as the riled up hornets once again came out to sting.

How nice it would be if we could summarily deport any refugee that seeks to harm those giving him shelter..to make money from betraying that hospitality, or endanger his hosts by embroiling them in his ideological wars...

Creely, as I said yesterday, either we remove our presence and money from the region, or we act responsibly when we exercise our free speech. I am not advocating forcing anyone to shut the hell up, but can't people act responsibly and realize we are still at war in the region?

Allie: Still no answers, no argument, just ... bleating. I get it. That's all you've got.

If you are not advocating that people shut the hell up, what the hell are you advocating? Again, are we supposed to have everyone run it by you for a responsibility check?

As long as Islam exists, it will be at war with us. They have declared that we are in their House of War. That never ends until we submit.

Bin Laden didn't just mock us as Nakoula did Muslims. Bin Laden explicitly declared it the religious duty of all Muslims to kill Americans wherever and whenever possible. Then he and his colleagues murdered three thousand of us and obliterated one of the nerve centers of our country in a single day.

Based on Pew Polls, about a third of the world's Muslims -- 500 million thereabouts -- had "confidence in Bin Laden to do the right thing." By 2010 that had shrunk to less than half of that, but that's still considerable -- 26% of "moderate" Indonesia (pop. 237 million) for instance.

These are the people we are dealing with.

You can't have this both ways -- I support freedom of speech unless it's risky or I don't approve. That's not freedom of speech.

You can argue it's tactically preferable to keep a lower profile. Well, maybe. Personally I think it's more dangerous to appease dangerous bullies because they more you give the more they keep taking.

AllieOpp: Sorry, I see that spimmortal cannot distinguish between heroism and free speech as practiced in the US. He would be quite the hero if he was showing this movie against a wall in Pakistan: now that would be a hero.