Trade makes more sense than that asinine Fister trade, however, I no longer think they are dealing from a position of strength on the pitching staff despite what M's fans try to tell me about the "prospects" they have in the minors.

Morales, well protected, with the Angels, did ok, when he wasn't breaking his leg celebrating like a jackass for hitting a game winning home run.

seahawk2k wrote:Trade makes more sense than that asinine Fister trade, however, I no longer think they are dealing from a position of strength on the pitching staff despite what M's fans try to tell me about the "prospects" they have in the minors.

Morales, well protected, with the Angels, did ok, when he wasn't breaking his leg celebrating like a jackass for hitting a game winning home run.

so just to be clear, if hadn't broken his leg, would you still call him a jackass for celebrating? which every single guy who hits a walk off does.

425HawkSpark wrote:I like Vargas but I like morales's bat with him and maybe trade for upton. And sign swisher iLife our chances better. All and all both teams got what they wanted.

A Morales trade makes a move for Swisher more than unlikely. They play the same positions, there isn't a spot for both especially when you factor in Smoak and Montero.

Moralas is a 1B, Swisher is a RF, Montero C, Smoak - Worthless, part of the problem not the solution IMO

Swisher *can* play RF, but his defense is terrible. He's far more suited to 1b/DH, and I'm pretty sure that's where the M's would want him if they were to sign him (which according to most sources seems very unlikely. That's what sparked the Morales trade, IMO).

Trrrroy wrote:Swisher *can* play RF, but his defense is terrible. He's far more suited to 1b/DH, and I'm pretty sure that's where the M's would want him if they were to sign him (which according to most sources seems very unlikely. That's what sparked the Morales trade, IMO).

Trrrroy wrote:Swisher *can* play RF, but his defense is terrible. He's far more suited to 1b/DH, and I'm pretty sure that's where the M's would want him if they were to sign him (which according to most sources seems very unlikely. That's what sparked the Morales trade, IMO).

yeah they aint getting him anyway so moot point.

Yep. I'm hoping to see a move for Michael Bourne, though. He'd look great at RF.

hawksman53 wrote:These are the only 2 guys the Mariners will aquire ( Bay and Morales) and then they will sugar coat it to look like they did something great and will also lie and say they made a hard push at Hamilton

Wow, so much wrong with tho post, it's laughable!

First off, no one from the M's organization is talking Hamilton, baseball writers wrote about the hard push from the Ms to sign Hamilton, he simply didn't want to be here. And secondly, no one from the M's organization is saying anything about Jason Bay. Just insecure non-fans like yourself who don't know much about baseball are screaming about a ST invite to Bay. Thirdly, Morales is a legit middle of the order bat that we got for an overrated back end of the rotation SP. Why wouldn't fans be excited about that?!

hawksman53 wrote:These are the only 2 guys the Mariners will aquire ( Bay and Morales) and then they will sugar coat it to look like they did something great and will also lie and say they made a hard push at Hamilton

Wow, so much wrong with tho post, it's laughable!

First off, no one from the M's organization is talking Hamilton, baseball writers wrote about the hard push from the Ms to sign Hamilton, he simply didn't want to be here. And secondly, no one from the M's organization is saying anything about Jason Bay. Just insecure non-fans like yourself who don't know much about baseball are screaming about a ST invite to Bay. Thirdly, Morales is a legit middle of the order bat that we got for an overrated back end of the rotation SP. Why wouldn't fans be excited about that?!

Actually...

Geoff Baker per Hamilton:

"What the Mariners offered was a bid in which they hoped by some reason not known to any of us that the Rangers might just sour on Hamilton and pull out of the chase at the very best. And if that happened? Celebration time in Seattle! The low bid turns out to be the winner by default, the Mariners walk away with what anybody would have called an absolute bargain last June and everyone in the Emerald City hails the conquering heroes.

And if that miracle doesn’t occur? If the Rangers actually do go four years to try to keep Hamilton? Well then, the Mariners, having never expected to really win the bidding with their safe, lower offer, can still point to the $100 million amount and those vesting options and claim “We tried!”

Whether or not he wanted to be here is beside the point (and why would he? It's Seattle, no SoCal); they pitched an offer, by their own admission, that was undervalued just in case they get lucky. They weren't going after Hamilton in so much as they were hoping he would fall into their lap, which is hardly what a good organization does when they identify a player that can fill two needs, namely run production and reversing fan apathy.

As far as addressing Jason Bay, it's a moot point as he won't be here after spring training. You're correct in that the organization is not promoting Bay as an important addition, but his addition in and of itself signals to many casual fans that they're not serious about bringing in mid-level ($$) free agents. Rather, it's about "upside" and "no risk" and "this guy is getting cut anyway but-oh-look he's having a nice little spring" bullshit. We've heard this for so long, we've seen the Scott Spezios and Rich Aurilias and Brad Wilkersons, we (casual fans that truly fuel the team revenue and profitability) know shit from Shinola. Jason Bay is shit, they're going to try to make him Shinola.

As far as labeling someone an "insecure non-fan" because they disagree with you, well that's sort of punk. I've been reading that garbage on that cupcake of a forum "USSMariner.com" for the last several years. Agree with us, you're smart. Disagree with us, you're a bad fan. Ironic that those casual, "bad fans" are the ones that drive revenue for the team; I think ten years of declining attendance which mirrors a malaise of competitiveness and lack of excitement bears that out. You can stick every Sabermetric sychophant "real fan" in the Seattle-area in Safeco, where they can stretch out during a 4-2 loss to the Royals, and they'll have plenty of room to move about because the place is two-thirds empty. Casual fans drive the bus, not the "real fans"; if they aren't being entertained, they aren't showing up.

Lastly, the last big-name acquisition from the Angels, the F/A signing of Chone Figgins was a disaster. I think it's very fair of fans (good, bad and otherwise) to be cautious of what Morales can do in a Mariners uniforms vs. an Angels one. The false bill of goods sold to us last time (and drooled over and praised and bromanced by those twits at USSMariner) is still fresh. I think Morales will be fine, but he's not going to bring anybody to the ballpark based on his own performance; Felix is the only one that can do that. Again, casual fans need entertainment and I don't believe Morales (nor anybody else they'll acquire before spring ball) is going to generate that.

The M's are screwed, namely do to the Rangers, Angels and A's. Two will spend money and are attractive to free agents, one will go cheap and outsmart many (though they'll never win anything) and one will be spinning their wheels. Diehard, casual, smart, dumb...you don't need a label to understand which ones will be the 2013 Mariners.

DohBoy

PS: Not a Vargas fan, but isn't that argument (overated, back-end starter) the same one that was applied to R.A. Dickey? Remember him, right? Guy that got optioned to the minors? Guy that walked and five years later won a Cy Young? Vargas isn't back-end, he's 3/4 - depending on the team. He has value; to diminish his success (and volume of innings pitched) based upon Safeco is silly. He just may be a better pitcher now that he's in Anaheim, thanks to a team that has a real offense and spends money aggressively; they'll overcome his Safeco-dynamic by blasting a million homeruns for him (something the M's never did). They got value in this deal w/Morales, but they needed to keep their pitching and ADD hitting to progress. This is sort of a wash...

hawksman53 wrote:These are the only 2 guys the Mariners will aquire ( Bay and Morales) and then they will sugar coat it to look like they did something great and will also lie and say they made a hard push at Hamilton

Wow, so much wrong with tho post, it's laughable!

First off, no one from the M's organization is talking Hamilton, baseball writers wrote about the hard push from the Ms to sign Hamilton, he simply didn't want to be here. And secondly, no one from the M's organization is saying anything about Jason Bay. Just insecure non-fans like yourself who don't know much about baseball are screaming about a ST invite to Bay. Thirdly, Morales is a legit middle of the order bat that we got for an overrated back end of the rotation SP. Why wouldn't fans be excited about that?!

Hello PR rep from the Mariners. How do you do?

Seriously, though, I don't know how someone can so vehemently support the Mariners organization at this point in time.

There is no sugarcoating the place the Ms are in. Its the same the Twins, Jays,, Rays, and many in baseball find themself at the moment: a decent core squad of young players left to fight against 5 to 7 high spending teams.

But you ask to be entertained? So.... drop millions on aging above average players? Remember the Angles and Rangers have only been major players over the last 6 years or so. Before that it was the As and Ms. Baseball is cyclical and its not hard to follow.

There are plenty of options out there to make a 75 win team better. Are those options good enough to get to 85 wins? Maybe? Is that good enough to win the west? Doubtful. But the right moves may put this team in a competitve position going forward. And that has to be the plan.

As for the ridiculous comments regarding USS Mariner... come on. The writer has been acknowledged as one of the most astute baseball writers in the nation. He's a by product of sabremeteics, however, and disagrees with the simple minded appraoch of power over math. Don't have to agree. I happen to.

hawksman53 wrote:These are the only 2 guys the Mariners will aquire ( Bay and Morales) and then they will sugar coat it to look like they did something great and will also lie and say they made a hard push at Hamilton

Wow, so much wrong with tho post, it's laughable!

First off, no one from the M's organization is talking Hamilton, baseball writers wrote about the hard push from the Ms to sign Hamilton, he simply didn't want to be here. And secondly, no one from the M's organization is saying anything about Jason Bay. Just insecure non-fans like yourself who don't know much about baseball are screaming about a ST invite to Bay. Thirdly, Morales is a legit middle of the order bat that we got for an overrated back end of the rotation SP. Why wouldn't fans be excited about that?!

Hello PR rep from the Mariners. How do you do?

Seriously, though, I don't know how someone can so vehemently support the Mariners organization at this point in time.

Maybe because some of us actually understand that an organization is made up of more than just the 25 man roster. And maybe because some of us actually follow the entire organization and like what Jack Z has done with this team...

Just because I follow the team closely doesn't make me a PR rep...it makes me informed

Hawkfan77... the Ms are in a hole they've dug for themselves. They've made the impression they aren't interested in making the team better. This follows a 5 year period of making bad moves trying to make them better. Fans are fed up. They want instant change. They want Fielder, Hamilton change. Without many fans won't be impressed, regardless of any positivity towards development there may be.

I'm losing patience but see a plan. Not sure how much longer it needs to take. The glory years of the Rangers and As won't last. The Ms have to be positioned to step by them when the time comes

There are people that are just ready to criticize and jump on the Ms for any move they make or any move they don't make, largely without thinking it through, understanding where the organization is, and understanding that baseball is a different beast than other sports. However, the Mariners gave up their right to the benefit of the doubt by fielding poor teams and lately going as far as to completely alienate Seattle sports fans by opposing the new arena. So yeah, the Ms don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, but that doesn't mean every move they make is wrong and every move they do make would've been the correct one.

There is a strong case to be made that signing Josh Hamilton is not what the Ms needed to do. I would've been happy if he signed here, but I'm also happy that we didn't take the guy on. There has been no propping up of Jason Bay as a star signing by anyone, the only talk of that is found in sarcastic rants trying to tear down the Ms. Jack Z has done a relatively good job, the moves he's made this offseason have made good sense so far, and let's see how it plays out.

There is no sugarcoating the place the Ms are in. Its the same the Twins, Jays,, Rays, and many in baseball find themself at the moment: a decent core squad of young players left to fight against 5 to 7 high spending teams.

But you ask to be entertained? So.... drop millions on aging above average players? Remember the Angles and Rangers have only been major players over the last 6 years or so. Before that it was the As and Ms. Baseball is cyclical and its not hard to follow.

There are plenty of options out there to make a 75 win team better. Are those options good enough to get to 85 wins? Maybe? Is that good enough to win the west? Doubtful. But the right moves may put this team in a competitve position going forward. And that has to be the plan.

As for the ridiculous comments regarding USS Mariner... come on. The writer has been acknowledged as one of the most astute baseball writers in the nation. He's a by product of sabremeteics, however, and disagrees with the simple minded appraoch of power over math. Don't have to agree. I happen to.

Acquiring a player w/similar numbers to Jose Lopez, who is in his last year of a contract and who is represented by Scott Boras is not the way to move your team forward; if we're working to acquire run production, this is a stop-gap that doesn't address the ongoing problem. Furthermore, you are subtracting a durable...if not spectacular...2/3 starter (for the Mariners). In essence, if Morales has a very good year (say what he had three years ago?), he's mostly likely gone. If he actually wants to stay, it's Scott Boras (again). Either way, it's not the 3-4 year F/A contract that adds some stability to a young team.

Mind you, I don't think this is a bad deal; I just think it's a wash that doesn't make the team better nor worse and doesn't address the issue of long-term productivity. Vargas ate innings, had some pretty crappy run support (pitching at Safeco is a 2-way street) and was willing to stay in Seattle. In return we get a young guy who has flashed brilliance, yet has had a bad injury, is under contract for one year and has a difficult agent. It's a nice upgrade at first, but it could be fleeting...

As for USS Mariner: Dave and Derek are twerps. They're guys who have been bullying others w/their crap since the days of Usenet and the original Mariner newsgroup. You want to pull up your shirt and show them your boobs because they're rock stars to you, fine...enjoy. But I think they're everything that is wrong with baseball writing right now: They make it boring. Throw in condescension, rudeness and way too much family BS on their fan-boy blog...and well, I think it's funny that for all their "astute" recognition, it hasn't changed one damn thing. Same goes for the sheeple propagating the fraud: The M's are just as bad when following the advice of USS Mariner as when they aren't. And more to the point, Zumsteg is a pretty big jackwagon (if not literally, then figuratively): His persona, as is evident w/his dismissive nature inre posts following the Hamilton/Angels deal, is grating to me. I wish we had a "Fight Club" in the SoDo area...

I think this is a good trade for both teams. But it isn't enough. As the M's, they are not intersted in competing with the big boys and wonder why there are less than 10k at the ball games. As for the Rangers and Angels window closing, keep dreaming, they can and will buy top tier talent, something Seattle is unwilling to do. As for the ussmariner board it is a joke, and a place for "Lincoln logs" (see FO apologists) hold their little tree fort.

Over zealous fans seem to take every single move or non move as the last the team will ever make. Its gets ripped to shreds because, you know, nothing else could possibly happen. Either some need to take it back a bit or they know ahead of this Friday the Mayans are right.

Trading Vargas for Morales doesn't solve problems. The Ms didn't come out and say it did, and neither did I. It does swap pitching (a relative strength) for hitting (a significant weakness). It also brings in a player who may have had a bad year last year overall but did finish with 14 HRs in his last 53 games. Either way, he has more upside than Vargas. The team doesn't lose its draft pick, which they want to keep.

The move is one, and I don't see USS Mariner supporting it. But the pissed off Ms fans want to rant and rave regardless. Problem is now you're arguing with people who aren't arguing back. Its Vargas for Morales, and yet its "when will everyone wake up and realize..." blah blah blah. Change the record. When its Spring jump back on here and say I told you so. Until then keep praise for your own condencension while pointing out others. Or go read another blog. They like the math of baseball. Many doubt. The vikings like to run, patriots pass...

But ill just go topless into the night and baa baa my way to another boring summer.

So we swapped two contract year players, saved a little money, and found a guy with some pop in his bat. Honestly Vargas is replaceable. Though I still cry about losing Fister...

If it's paired with signing a decent pitcher it looks pretty good. Get a right fielder like Cody Ross and we fill two black holes last year with two decent legitimate major league hitters, lose no picks, doesn't have much financial risk, and protects the farm to keep growing and gaining value.

If it's our only move of course it's not adequate and I think Z would say the same. It's fairly lateral but allows for much more flexibility and adds hitting.

I like the trade but also think that as of right now, it's a wash. However, if some of these prospect pitchers work out and Beavan ends up taking Vargas's spot as the #2, then it could end up being a good trade. Vargas's road ERA was much worse than at home and we all know why that was. With the fences moving in this year, it's hard to say what his ERA would be even at home this year. He is an innings eater which the M's needed considering the bullpen.

Morales seemed to be on his way to becoming a very good hitter, maybe even elite before the injury. I think as a switch hitter, he'll hit well to right field. An agent like Boras could be a problem, but at least we get a year to see how he fits in and hits as Safeco before thinking about dealing with Boras for him long term. Also, I heard Morales is good friends with Felix, which could be one reason the M's made this move. Felix might have pushed for him. Can anyone else confirm this? I heard somewhere a couple of years ago that they were good friends (and not from the commercial they did together), but not sure where I read or heard that.