Brucewar, it's disrespectful and completely out-of-line for you to slam all of the hard work that's gone into this map (and others). This site flourishes due to constructive comments volunteered by those with a helpful and polite spirit. Perhaps you a momentary lapse in your generally positive affect is the root of your remarks. I trust your future sentiments will be kinder and more useful.

LMR

Let me say this... I was not trying to be disrespectful. I know tons of time go into the making or revamping of each map. All the people who do all the hard work on these maps should be given some nice rewards. This is just one revamp that I do not really care for. His first version to me was much better. Then again I like bolder colors.

Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.

Well said. And to amplify, it's my understanding that a revamp CANNOT begin without the express permission of the original artist.

Bruceswar wrote:Since you asked... I think this new map is terrible... I will not be playing this one at all. Ruined another map... Changing the game play of a map is never a good idea if you ask me. Well rarely, but not in this case.

YUK!

1. Terrible color choices, even if that is the colors of Germany.. 2nd map in the first post are much better color choices.2. The movement of spots of top is bad as well. That 1 way spot (1 way in and out) will totally change how this map is played... Bad bad idea. 3. Mountains to rivers down south? What happen did those mountains just vanish? Poof be gone?4. What happens to current games on this map since all the places are moved and changed? Will there be 2 map choices?

I will end with this... All these maps getting revamped is bad for this site. You say in the long run it will be better, etc etc. I do not agree. Look at what the classic ordeal did. I know many many people who left to never come back. Those people then spread the word about CC in a negative light.

Get your own ideas people and stop trying to "fix" other maps that do not need it. Fixing Graphics is one thing. OK I am all for some new graphics at times, but when you start changing game play, names etc it becomes a bad bad idea.

Maps are supposed to be original ideas, not taking someone elses idea and trying to make it better. Once in a rare while it is needed but many many times not needed.

Well, Incandenza and others hit virtually everything, I'll add to two things though. Foremost, no gameplay changes are being made to the Germany map, as I said earlier (see the "About the Revamp" quote in the first post of this thread for more info). That misconception seems to be where much of this revamp opposition springs from. All changes to territory names, shapes, and borders have been made to increase accuracy while preserving the original gameplay.The other thing you mention is a revamp's effect on the site. I honestly believe that revamps are better in the long run for CC. The benefits of having enticing and/or interesting graphics on CC will almost certainly outweigh a few old members portraying the site in a negative light.Last, for your individual comments:1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.

Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.

While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.

Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.

While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.

The problem is that the vast vast majority of CCers simply don't care and have zero curiosity about where maps come from. For most players (and this extends across ranks, I have stories that would blow cartographer's minds), maps might as well be brought fully-created by the bloody stork. So when there's a mild uproar like this (and let's be honest, this is about as mild an uproar as one could have on CC), I tend not to have a great deal of sympathy.

Even when map information is posted on the homepage, most people just breeze right past it. I see what you're saying about a note on the "my games" page, but there's a couple of problems with that. One is that the average revamp takes several months at least, so how long should any sort of notice remain up? Two is that I imagine lack likes to keep my games page notices to fundamental, site-wide notices, like the new rating system or the upgrade to the forum software.

Incandenza wrote:The problem is that the vast vast majority of CCers simply don't care and have zero curiosity about where maps come from. For most players (and this extends across ranks, I have stories that would blow cartographer's minds), maps might as well be brought fully-created by the bloody stork. So when there's a mild uproar like this (and let's be honest, this is about as mild an uproar as one could have on CC), I tend not to have a great deal of sympathy.

Even when map information is posted on the homepage, most people just breeze right past it. I see what you're saying about a note on the "my games" page, but there's a couple of problems with that. One is that the average revamp takes several months at least, so how long should any sort of notice remain up? Two is that I imagine lack likes to keep my games page notices to fundamental, site-wide notices, like the new rating system or the upgrade to the forum software.

While many think these maps come from the stork already done, many more would like a say in the matter. I know a friend of mine, took part in the first part of the Brazil revamp, since Oaktown posted in a game chat to check it out. He rarely reads the forums, and I am not sure if he has posted at all. Also how many maps are being revamped at a time? 2 or 3 max usually. With a ticker like they use on sports websites, they could have it scroll the messages. It would only be like 5 messages max or so. Messages about forum updates, medals, etc would last a week or 2, while revamps could last as long as needed. Informed people are much more happy in the long run, than the overnight changes some seem to make.

To those who think the stork gives the maps to CC, well not too much you can say to them other than "F Off and try one for yourself and then let me know how easy it is". For those who would like to have a say, better advertisement would help a ton.

pepperonibread wrote:Last, for your individual comments:1. This color scheme was decided on due to a certain lack of German flavor in the original draft of the revamp. It's been adjusted throughout this thread - to be frank, I'd venture to say that this aspect of the image has really already been agreed upon, save for some minor adjustments.2. Which spot are you referring to? The territories Osnabruck and Munster do not border, if this is what you're talking about I could scoot the mountains over a bit to make the impassable more clear.3. These were switched for accuracy's sake.4. This revamp would replace the current Germany map.

1. Fine about the German flavor, but there are other ways to go about getting it.2. I meant the movement of Berlin down south and making the island. Also Moving Kiel into the other bonus. 3. Fine if you want to be accurate, but we must remember it is a game. Anyhow that will not effect the game play at all really, just a notice. 4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?

unless you mean the type of "have a say" which encompasses things like "it's a good idea", "it's a bad idea", "you should do it like this and I won't come back until everything is already done and complain that no one listened to my probably not thought out idea", etc

people don't like change. simple as that. It'd be very nice if each map had small, large, original small, original large versions. That would require an XML overhaul. Adding revamps as a separate map seems like too much. We don't need two classic maps. We don't need two british isles or two germanys.

Bruceswar wrote:4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?

GAMEPLAY DOESN'T CHANGE. you might say, "Yea. I know that already." But, you're not grasping it. If I own territory X which appears in the bottom right and after the revamp it is located on the bottom left, it's still the same territory. It appears to be different but gameplay-wise you're in the same spot. The graphical representation of the gameplay has changed. That's it.

Bruceswar wrote:4. So what will happen if you owned a spot that has been moved to another bonus area? Say Dresden or Kiel? Also what about the new spots on the maps? Where do those go?

GAMEPLAY DOESN'T CHANGE. you might say, "Yea. I know that already." But, you're not grasping it. If I own territory X which appears in the bottom right and after the revamp it is located on the bottom left, it's still the same territory. It appears to be different but gameplay-wise you're in the same spot. The graphical representation of the gameplay has changed. That's it.

Soo Basically what you are saying is the name of the places are changing, but nobody is going to be moved. I think you missed the question. Maybe I should be more specific.

If you own Dresden currently, which is part of the pink bonus do you have Berlin now?

Maybe it would be a bit helpful to most of the territory changes could be posted.

Optimus Prime wrote:Is everyone forgetting that a large number of the REVAMPS are made because the original artist wants them revamped? I know for a fact that is the case with Brazil and British Isles. Why is everyone going around ranting and raving about REVAMPS the last couple of days? If the original artist wants it changed, they can have it changed, they don't owe any of us anything.

End of story.

While this is 100% true, these maps also by part belong to the CC Community. They may not have the rights to change them, but surely they can vote by choosing the play map X or not.

Edited to add: Just a guess but 80% of CC does not visit the forums much, if at all. With that being said, I think many more people would help /give ideas etc if a note was put in the my games section. Then you would have far less people upset over a map revamp. Maybe even a scrolling text with important news. "Brazil map getting revamped: Check it here" "Germany map getting revamped: Check it here" Or anything else CC deems important, such as medals, feedback, new rule changes etc. Leave it for a few weeks and get a better feel on things. But that is for another topic.

I beg to differ. The CC Community in no way owns any portion of the maps, they are 100% on loan to the CC community by the individual mapmaker's and as such the mapmaker has final say in what is done with them. Far more than 80% of the membership of this site has never seen the light of day inside these forums. You only think there is a "dislike" for REVAMPS because a few people show up in the forum and say something. It is not indicative of the membership as a whole in any way.

If cairnswk, WIdowmakers, RjBeals, and gimil were to walk in tomorrow and tell lackattack that they no longer wish to have their maps used on the site, there is nothing he can do about it. I say we are lucky to have the maps and the changes made during REVAMPS are not negative in any way.

Similar adjustments happened in the entries to the Centerscape Revamp competition (viewtopic.php?f=127&t=72094), and I think in the British Isles revamp as well.Just imagine a "skeleton map" like Classic shapes. You can distort, push, pull, and displace the territories all you want, but the gameplay still remains identical as long as none of the actual attack routes (lines) are altered or broken.

Pep, I love the revamp, it's going great, but I DO have a complaint. The bridge connecting Rostock and Rugen stands out WAY too much for my liking. Maybe you could make a low-key dotted line? Or at least a better bridge? Thanks.

Small point today. On the small could you move Dresden army number down a px? It looks like it more or less touches the terr name.

Pep you should make more maps, you are by far one of our best.

Thanks gimil. Can do.As for more maps, it'll be tough with my current schoolwork - but I am hoping to at least do a global warming revamp/touchup after this is done

wrightfan123 wrote:Pep, I love the revamp, it's going great, but I DO have a complaint. The bridge connecting Rostock and Rugen stands out WAY too much for my liking. Maybe you could make a low-key dotted line? Or at least a better bridge? Thanks.

-Wright

Ok, sure. There were previously other bridges on the map over some of the rivers, but now that there's only one I agree that it looks somewhat out of place. I think I'll slim it down a bit.

It's really confusing comparing the old map and the newest revamp version. There's a perfectly nice and good revamp version on page 1 / post 1 in this thread, a version that follows the original shapes. These are well-known and good shapes. Rehauling the map like this seems like a bad idea. No. I suggest going back to the revamp version on page 1 / post 1 and take it from there. This way, you may as well make a new Germany map instead of a revamp. Part of the game experience/feeling depends on the territorial shapes. The shapes in the original map has a pleasant feeling.

Gengoldy wrote:Of all the games I've played, and there have been some poor sports and cursing players out there, you are by far the lowest and with the least class.

alstergren wrote:It's really confusing comparing the old map and the newest revamp version. There's a perfectly nice and good revamp version on page 1 / post 1 in this thread, a version that follows the original shapes. These are well-known and good shapes. Rehauling the map like this seems like a bad idea. No. I suggest going back to the revamp version on page 1 / post 1 and take it from there. This way, you may as well make a new Germany map instead of a revamp. Part of the game experience/feeling depends on the territorial shapes. The shapes in the original map has a pleasant feeling.

There was a consensus that we wanted to add some more realism to the map. The old map's continents were largely random and had little to do with current states/cultural unities, and so where many of the territories. We realigned them so that we have: continents consisting of a 1,2 or 3 states and no state lies in 2 continents, the east-west split which is significant and more realistic impassables. Thats the reason there's so many shape changes.

And seriously, the old map wasnt good graphically, but the major flaws were with the names, shapes, continents and impassables. Atleast thats what the majority of the people who looked here thought.

I think it was mentioned before about adding an additional mountain to each mountain range that overlaps the border of Germany itself, to reinforce the fact that you can't sneak round the edges of them

As far as XML work goes, I cannot stress how important it is going to be to keep the territories in the same order as in the original XML file. To this end, it would be helpful if you could put together a single master list that shows all the territory names and how the new ones map onto the old ones.

PB: 2661 | He's blue...If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that