No it doesn´t counter his point.You simply cant disprove the fact that there could´ve been more members involved.

Atleast in the english version Gin never says a word about "only (and nobody elses) Rums headache".

We don´t even know if APTX killed Kohji.Unknown cause of death + APTX list doesn´t mean necessarily that Kohji was killed by APTX. The placement of Kohji´s name on the list might be hinting towards some other scenario.Unlikely yes - but not a fact as you state it.

The dying message might still be coincidentally pointing out at Rum and mean sth. completely different. Bourbon and stuff might be interpretating it wrong, same as Conan/Shu.

Gin used APTX too. In contradiction to Rum he´s a low(er) ranked member too.Nevertheless there is not a single thing saying that only high ranked members are allowed to use APTX.

We only know by now that Rum was somehow involved in that case and screwed sth. up.These are the only 2 facts that we know so far.Everything else is up to anyones interpretation.

To me - as someone who read every single Agatha Christia book - it´s pretty much obvious that connections between things we assume are suremight turn out to be sth. completely different towards the end.

One last thing: Do you see it as a fact that Rum combines the 3 descriptions?

dccd wrote:No it doesn´t counter his point.You simply cant disprove the fact that there could´ve been more members involved.

Atleast in the english version Gin never says a word about "only (and nobody elses) Rums headache".

We don´t even know if APTX killed Kohji.Unknown cause of death + APTX list doesn´t mean necessarily that Kohji was killed by APTX. The placement of Kohji´s name on the list might be hinting towards some other scenario.Unlikely yes - but not a fact as you state it.

The dying message might still be coincidentally pointing out at Rum and mean sth. completely different. Bourbon and stuff might be interpretating it wrong, same as Conan/Shu.

Gin used APTX too. In contradiction to Rum he´s a low(er) ranked member too.Nevertheless there is not a single thing saying that only high ranked members are allowed to use APTX.

We only know by now that Rum was somehow involved in that case and screwed sth. up.These are the only 2 facts that we know so far.Everything else is up to anyones interpretation.

To me - as someone who read every single Agatha Christia book - it´s pretty much obvious that connections between things we assume are suremight turn out to be sth. completely different towards the end.

One last thing: Do you see it as a fact that Rum combines the 3 descriptions?

If Kohji wasn't killed by APTX why his name even exists on the list? (Don't tell me it's Gosho's way of screwing with our brains. Gosho never lies about stuff.)

Rum was involved in Kohji case to an extent which can potentially screw up the job, it's evident from Gin's perspective.(The person who signs a MOU is responsible, not the person who chalks out the clauses.) So Rum's involvement wasn't passive (only planning) in that case, combine this with a very confidential poison was used in that case plus add that there was a dying message involved, which triggers BO.

Combine these three facts, I guess every mystery novel writer would unanimously point to Rum being the one doing the job. Agatha Christie novels aren't measures of logical reasoning, if you use Holmesian reasoning on them you would be able to decode the criminal every single time, because Holmesian reasoning is logical reasoning's synonym. If you had said Holmes, I would have agreed with you.

Gin also says it's (Haneda's case) not my concern, I'm interested about the detective Mouri Kogoro. If he becomes a problem for us(BO), we would have to kill him. This means that Gin will protect BO's interest but not Rum's. So it's evident it's only Rum's headache, not BO's or anyone else's.

Why does BO even think that the dying message is important? That means Haneda knew his killer but there's no established link between Haneda and BO, so how did he know the killer in the first place? Even if the killer was known to Haneda why the killer didn't ask a colleague to finish his job, so that Haneda won't even know who had killed him?

If Rum didn't kill Haneda why the BO would interpret that the dying message points to Rum?If Someone else killed Haneda why the case would become Rum's headache? Even if the said killer is dead, it means it's no one's headache.

If the dying message coincidentally pointed to Rum, but was intended to someone else, why BO would even be nervous? Rum would have an airtight alibi at his disposal, because he isn't the killer.

These are logical deductions from the facts presented to us. Answer my questions before posing your alternate theory.

Rum's three avatars are speculations heard by Haibara, this can only mean that Rum is a very secretive person and seldom meets with other operatives. That's the only logical conclusion that can be derived from it.

Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on May 28th, 2017, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

For a couple of hours today I'm home, so I will once again take a part in this.

The APTX list can be fake. We know that at least Shinichi's alive while he should be dead. While not very unlikely, it could be that someone put Kouji's name on it even hough he was not killed by the APTX. Plus, we know that there were two drugs, and after the lab got burned, maybe the BO operatives put all of the names they namaged to retrieve on a single list. Which means that Kouji could be killed by something different. Finally, that list must be either really old (and Kouji was put on it immediately after dying), or quite recent, therefore some names on it might not be correct because of the number of years that passed since his death, and because of a number of different people that were working on it.

As DCCD said, we don't really know what the dying message really is. In fact it appears both Conan and Akai aren't 100% sure about it yet. It could mean ASACA = RUM, or something different. We don't even know whether it is a dying message, or just a message (for example in his last breath Kouji wanted to say a "farewell" to someone). Finally, we don't even know whether Kouji is responsible for making it, or it was placed therre after his death to mislead the investigators or someone else.

I don't really want to go into dispute who's better mystery writer, Christie or Holmes. Some people like apples, some pears; some people like girls, some fish. And if I can request, stop treating us as idiots, and Yourself as a person who ate the entire world and know everything. Thank You.

As I mentioned earlier we don't know what Rum was doing there or if he even was there. Rum could as well screw up the job because he was NOT there.

From we have seen so far, most of the BO members work alone or in the case of Gin with some lackeys. Gin might not be interested in Haneda's murder, because he was not involved in it, and unless the Boss orders something related to it, he has his own orders to follow. Like in Poland we say, it's not his circus, and not his monkeys.

It is indeed strange why the BO is still so nervous about the dying message after all this years. Maybe because the Boss is too careful and want to investigate every single lead that would point to the BO regardless of how many years have passed since it. Plus, since recently the Haneda's death appeared in the Interned, I think the Boss has a reason to be nervous. It doesn't really matter whether Rum killed them, or even if he was in there, because the dying message could point to the BO, and also because Rum probably could not prove that he was elsewhere. Not after so many years (well, unless he was in a prison or was not born yet). And also, because nobody cares now where a particular mafia member was. For them it is important only that he's mafia.

And one more thing, Haibara said that the name of the Organization is something different than the BO. But she didn't reveal it. It could be that the BO is nervous about this dying message, because they want to hide for how long they exist, and this dying message suggests that it is at least 17 years old. Maybe they don't know others to know that they're around for that long or even longer.

My dad’s a soldier blue I’ll be a soldier, tooWhen I grow older you will see me rescue youI’ll teach you this old song so you can sing alongWhen I am dead and gone the day won’t be so long.

But the original message wasnt RUM, right? The letters were UMR, Conan and Akai just assumed it could be "RUM". If Kohji didnt knew Rum, the UMR could mean something else. The real UMR (UMARU) is a gamer with a secret identity. Maybe a hint to Rumi, who also hides her true personality.

We should try to deduce inferences from given facts. Our inferences should answer all the necessary questions which are to be answered for the inference to be true.Citing other possibilities without giving proof is by no means is theorizing.

Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on May 28th, 2017, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nemomon wrote:For a couple of hours today I'm home, so I will once again take a part in this.

The APTX list can be fake. We know that at least Shinichi's alive while he should be dead. While not very unlikely, it could be that someone put Kouji's name on it even hough he was not killed by the APTX. Plus, we know that there were two drugs, and after the lab got burned, maybe the BO operatives put all of the names they namaged to retrieve on a single list. Which means that Kouji could be killed by something different. Finally, that list must be either really old (and Kouji was put on it immediately after dying), or quite recent, therefore some names on it might not be correct because of the number of years that passed since his death, and because of a number of different people that were working on it.

As DCCD said, we don't really know what the dying message really is. In fact it appears both Conan and Akai aren't 100% sure about it yet. It could mean ASACA = RUM, or something different. We don't even know whether it is a dying message, or just a message (for example in his last breath Kouji wanted to say a "farewell" to someone). Finally, we don't even know whether Kouji is responsible for making it, or it was placed therre after his death to mislead the investigators or someone else.

I don't really want to go into dispute who's better mystery writer, Christie or Holmes. Some people like apples, some pears; some people like girls, some fish. And if I can request, stop treating us as idiots, and Yourself as a person who ate the entire world and know everything. Thank You.

As I mentioned earlier we don't know what Rum was doing there or if he even was there. Rum could as well screw up the job because he was NOT there.

From we have seen so far, most of the BO members work alone or in the case of Gin with some lackeys. Gin might not be interested in Haneda's murder, because he was not involved in it, and unless the Boss orders something related to it, he has his own orders to follow. Like in Poland we say, it's not his circus, and not his monkeys.

It is indeed strange why the BO is still so nervous about the dying message after all this years. Maybe because the Boss is too careful and want to investigate every single lead that would point to the BO regardless of how many years have passed since it. Plus, since recently the Haneda's death appeared in the Interned, I think the Boss has a reason to be nervous. It doesn't really matter whether Rum killed them, or even if he was in there, because the dying message could point to the BO, and also because Rum probably could not prove that he was elsewhere. Not after so many years (well, unless he was in a prison or was not born yet). And also, because nobody cares now where a particular mafia member was. For them it is important only that he's mafia.

And one more thing, Haibara said that the name of the Organization is something different than the BO. But she didn't reveal it. It could be that the BO is nervous about this dying message, because they want to hide for how long they exist, and this dying message suggests that it is at least 17 years old. Maybe they don't know others to know that they're around for that long or even longer.

1) Shinichi's status was written as "unconfirmed" not dead, get your facts right. Shinichi's name was there on the list, so it was a routinely updated list.(not an old or new list.)

2) There weren't two drugs, BO wanted Haibara to develop a drug different than APTX-4869. What Miyano's were researching something which was astonishing. It can be anything APTX, Silver-bullet, or both. But the fact is APTX existed 17 years ago and had the same mechanism of the current prototype.(Haibara built it up from burnt notes, so it was there, no point in denying it. Can look up Chekov's theories for reference.)

3) Yes we can pretty much deduce that Rum was there from the given circumstances. If Rum wasn't there then who the hell screwed up the murder? If Rum's absence was screw-up then how did the murder happened in the first place?

4) We don't know what the dying message is, but there is a theory which explains the bruises in haneda's hand, the clipped letters, the odd position of the scissors and at the same time it doesn't assume, Haneda knew Rum's code-name, it doesn't assume Haneda knew about BO. So that theory seems very plausible.

5) If it's a farewell message then what does it mean, you can't spell Sayonara with the clipped letters? If the killer had the time to leave a message to implicate someone, then why they didin't do it more explicitly? You know there are a tonne of people with the clipped words in their name. If the killer had that sort of time, then why didn't the killer cleaned up the room afterwards?

6) Holmes wasn't a mystery writer, Dr. Arthur Conan Doyle was. BTW there's a tonne of research materials about Sherlockian way of thinking and the logical soundness of it.Sherlock Holmes was written much before Poirot. Poirot's whole storyline is based on Sherlockian reasoning.

7)If that screw-up involved a threat for the whole BO, Gin would have taken it up on his shoulders. He wants to monitor Kogoro and kill him if needed ,because he thinks Kogoro can become a threat to organization. He shows no sort of inclination to acknowledge that Rum's screw-up will endanger the organization. It's proof enough that this is a personal problem/screw-up of Rum and only he is involved in it.

8) To implicate Rum the investigators must find a connection between Haneda and Rum and the dying message implicating Rum. If Rum wasn't there the dying message can't relate to him, there are an infinite number of people who had all those characters in their name and had no alibi during the time of Haneda's murder, do you imply that Law enforcement will round up everyone and treat them as suspects?? (Even in Gosholand that's just )

9) Boss isn't worried about the dying message at all. He gives a damn about it, he is only curious about people who use Asaca instead of Asaka. He's clearly keeping an eye on anyone who can have potential link to the Haneda Kohji case. The dying message isn't his concern, but people talking about the Kohji case is.

10)I don't feel like repeating myself again and again. You don't want to believe in this version go on, with your life. But if you really want a discourse provide me the answers of the questions which I have raised. Or go on try to disprove my Umaru=Rum theory.

You know what Himouto Umaru-chan is the killer, she's the one who has three personasA)Chibi-UmaruB)UMRc)Umaru.She's the second in command, she was the one who screwed up, Rum is just a smokescreen. Gin hates her because he doesn't want to be bothered. It wasn't APTX, she killed Haneda by Magical-splash. BO cover-up.But MUP(Military Uniform Princess) intervened and Haneda's room got dirty in the fight. Rumi is the MUP in disguise and searching for Umaru. She already gouged out one eye of Umaru and that old big one eyed man is the guy from Berserk in disguise.

dccd wrote: All we say is that there are other possibilities besides the ones you favorize. We don´t say your ones are wrong since we cant know by now.

It just wasnt right that you claimed that these are facts. Thats it. Calm down, bro.

I never claimed them to be facts, I only claimed that my deductions can be deduced from the given facts.

Last edited by Zerozaki4869 on May 28th, 2017, 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Shinichi's status was changed to Dead actually by Haibara? This is literally proof that the list can be fake. Gosho has done these types of tricks before in cases, where normal statements bring out a completely new meaning, one of the latest cases with the brother and sister that the culprit thought were secretly going out had this kind of thinking-outside-the-box type of clueing going on.

"Kohji was APTXed and it's a job which Rum screwed up, these two are two basic facts."

"I never claimed them to be facts, I only claimed that my deductions can be deduced from the given facts."

To me these are not facts, even though they´re very likely logical deductions.But those kind of "obvious logical deductions" sometimes turn out to be wrong in the end.Thats all im sayin and I think you cant deny that.