213. Why would you be "ambiguous" about the pronoun?

If you are making a decision to be ambiguous because you are willfully refusing to acknowledge Chelsea Manning as a woman, then yeah, it's bigoted and intolerant and you should expect to be called out for it. It's kind of right up there with someone thinking they aren't a bigot because they don't "hate" gay people - and explaining they hate the sin, not the sinner, and in the same breath talking about how they can probably get some anti-gay therapy for that, and then whining that Christians are being persecuted for not supporting marriage equality.

You can either acknowledge people's identity, or make a point of refusing to do so. But you don't get to make a point of refusing to acknowledge a transgender person's identity and then act like you are the victim and everyone else is an intolerant bully. If there's something in you that has a need for talking about transgender people as if they no longer have any gender at all, you are on the side of bullying; you aren't the one being persecuted.

215. I AM NOT WILLFULLY REFUSING TO ACKNOWLEDGE ANY GODDAMNED THING.

I don't know what the standard is for internet forums/journalism etc versus the courtroom standard versus etiquette in personal interactions. Hence my use of "s/he" rather than "he" a couple of HOURS after this was announced, in a SINGLE post, which I have since deleted when it became clear that I had accidentally committed a crime against humanity.

And I'm not a fucking bully. You people are, well, I don't even have words for what you are. "Amazing" just doesn't cut it.

224. There are good ways and bad ways to respond to these things.

All of us, including myself, have been the culprit in committing an occasional offensive faux pas out of ignorance at one point or another. It stings when we get called out. I did once in a Katrina blog post, where I referred to the evacuees as "refugees." I had no idea when I typed it that it was offensive or why. Now I know.

Going back to delete your post was appropriate. A comment (and I don't know whether you did this or not) to the effect of "I'm sorry, I'm reading and absorbing what you are saying here and why it's offensive, but I honestly meant no harm" is appropriate.

Acting like you are the victim or that other people are out of line for being angry when people won't acknowledge their gender, getting defensive, and in effect saying that people are overreacting (tossing out hyperboles like "crime against humanity") is not appropriate. Anytime there is a power/privilege dynamic (white/black, straight/gay, etc), I believe the burden is on the group with the most privilege to make the greater effort to listen to members of the group with the least privilege, and put their own egos aside while doing it.

It sounds like you got called out once for a comment on using inappropriate pronouns. I truly believe - and I suspect you would agree - that any pain you suffered as a result of that callout is negligible compared to the pain transgender people deal with over and over and over again, when people refer to them deliberately with the wrong pronoun, as s/he, or worse yet, "it" - which I actually saw on DU once today. Understand that for you, the issue is simply saving face. For them, it's having their entire identity invalidated. You are not an oppressed person here, in other words, and if you inadvertently contributed to someone else's oppression, apologize, learn from it, suck it up and move on.

226. +1000000

247. Sorry, I'm not buying it. You're a veterinarian, right?

If so, you're most likely a highly educated person, capable of grasping highly complex concepts and quickly solving problems. You're capable of expressing your own ambiguity about Chelsea Manning's gender identity in a more respectful way than "s/he" and you're capable of following up without doubling down.

8. All it takes is for an open minded person to meet a transgendered....

202. i've never met a transgendered person (edited ... opps, wrong, it was no big deal that i forgot it.

but i have no trouble accepting how they define their sexuality. Gender isn't just about organs, it goes much deeper ... I get that. I hope Chelsea Manning is treated with the respect she deserves as a woman. I fear for her safety in the system.

Edited to add ... oops! I have known someone transgender. It was so not a big deal that i forgot about it. It was my fav. math teacher in college. I really admired her for doing it.

87. May she soon be free . . .

90. You are confusing me with others on this string.

I did not suggest Chelsea Manning's legacy will be greater than that of President Obama. What I was trying to convey to you was the very real importance of what she did. It was an act of patriotism and personal courage. There is no way to lessen its value to our nation as a whole.

As to Chelsea Manning's sexual identity: That is properly her choice to make, right?

259. Get some education

Transgenders don't just wish to be of another gender. Their brains are wired like that of the sex they feel they belong to. It's no more of a "choice" than being left-handed, gay, or having blue eyes. And yes, this has been proven scientifically, if you want objective reality.

I was born a ginger in a dark-haired family. Crude jokes about the mailman aside, it wasn't a problem. But if it had been, I could change that. The remedy's available in every supermarket and drugstore.

Trans people have options for change, but they're neither simple nor easily available. I can't begin to imagine what it feels like to be stuck in a body that feels just plain wrong. And I feel that losing weight is a struggle!

Human gender isn't a cookie-cutter affair. Pick up a medical genetics textbook if you doubt me. Lots of people's apparent sex doesn't even match their chromosomes, let alone their brains.

262. Two points

1) Depending on when during gestation testosterone in is either given or blocked, you get baby rats that grow up to act in ways analogous to human transgenders. Males that think they're females, and vice-versa.

2) When you stick transgenders in a PET scanner, their brains light up like those of the opposite sex, not their own. This is not true of most gay people.

Is it genetic? Probably at least partially. It's epigenetic: a complex interaction of genes and environment. In any case, it's out of their control. Telling them they're deluded and need to get in touch with reality is inhumane.

82. What Manning taught us is mostly what we already knew. If you were born before 1950 all of these

86. I knew some things about how we really conduct our foreign affairs.

The way we treat other nations behind the scenes and then lie about it in public (American diplomatic history) is the field I specialized in for decades. What Manning revealed, though, were not thirty-year-old records dealing with events which most people don't even remember. She gave us the actual communications regarding our government's recent international actions and manipulations, conclusive proof of what had heretofore only been educated speculations. You can take my word for it, they were stunning.

206. That is a persistent LIE at DU.

Below is a list of 10 revelations disclosed by Manning’s leaked documents that offer insight into the breadth and scope of what he revealed, help explain his motivation for leaking, and provide context for the ongoing trial. The list, in no particular order, is far from comprehensive but encompasses some of the most significant information brought to light by the leaked documents.

During the Iraq War, U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape, and murder by Iraqi police and soldiers, according to thousands of field reports.

There were 109,032 “violent deaths” recorded in Iraq between 2004 and 2009, including 66,081 civilians. Leaked records from the Afghan War separately revealed coalition troops’ alleged role in killing at least 195 civilians in unreported incidents, one reportedly involving U.S. service members machine-gunning a bus, wounding or killing 15 passengers.

The U.S. Embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any European Union country that opposed genetically modified crops, with U.S. diplomats effectively working directly for GM companies such as Monsanto.

British and American officials colluded in a plan to mislead the British Parliament over a proposed ban on cluster bombs.

In Baghdad in 2007, a U.S. Army helicopter gunned down a group of civilians, including two Reuters news staff.

U.S. special operations forces were conducting offensive operations inside Pakistan despite sustained public denials and statements to the contrary by U.S. officials.

A leaked diplomatic cable provided evidence that during an incident in 2006, U.S. troops in Iraq executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence. The disclosure of this cable was later a significant factor in the Iraqi government’s refusal to grant U.S. troops immunity from prosecution beyond 2011, which led to U.S. troops withdrawing from the country.

A NATO coalition in Afghanistan was using an undisclosed “black” unit of special operations forces to hunt down targets for death or detention without trial. The unit was revealed to have had a kill-or-capture list featuring details of more than 2,000 senior figures from the Taliban and al-Qaida, but it had in some cases mistakenly killed men, women, children, and Afghan police officers.

The U.S. threatened the Italian government in an attempt to influence a court case involving the indictment of CIA agents over the kidnapping of an Egyptian cleric. Separately, U.S. officials were revealed to have pressured Spanish prosecutors to dissuade them from investigating U.S. torture allegations, secret “extraordinary rendition” flights, and the killing of a Spanish journalist by U.S. troops in Iraq.

In apparent violation of a 1946 U.N. convention, Washington initiated a spying campaign in 2009 that targeted the leadership of the U.N. by seeking to gather top officials’ private encryption keys, credit card details, and biometric data.

129. Agreed. I was responding to the poster who referenced the BOG playing

dirty to defend Obama against all nay-sayers.

Even though I live in Los Angeles and have made common cause plenty times with the LGBT community here at various protests and rallies sponsored by ANSWER and other left-leaning affinity groups, I have not had much personal exposure to trans issues (or trans hate) before now. That said, I have been simply aghast at some of the bigotry on display here toward Ms. Manning, particularly the notion that she somehow chose (or 'elected') to be trans. She no more "chose" to be trans that I chose to be white or male. I don't feel like I'm the best person to be making this argument, though, given my relative lack of personal exposure to and experience with the trans community.

130. indeed. I am deeply disappointed in the president and those who

defend his positions on domestic spying and secrecy, Larry summers, school privatization, union busting, torture, drone murder, NDAA, Keystonexl, and so on. I actually think the president is a deep-down good man who has completely succumbed to the forces that really run the country -he would like to do the right thing, but simply can't, and instead of fighting the good fight, has decided to go along with the inexorable takeover by the Koch brothers and their ilk.

But ut you will notice that the BOGers are uniform in their support of the president on all of these issues. Now you see that the same group by and large are using personal slurs against Greenwald and manning. Their worship of Obama has touched their souls in a bad way. They too are decent folk (having voted democratic their entire lives), who have lost their way for a time.

Edit: A few more thoughts on this subject. My feelings on this president's character are much different than my views on his predecessor. I consider GWB to be a stupid, mean, entitled coke-head with basically no redeeming features. He watched the demise of the country with unabashed glee, while Obama watches it with regret and resignation. Now you know the difference between disappointment and hatred.

181. I understand it quite well, thank you so much. nt

106. I am not a fan of that

vacuous echo chamber but to be fair there are a number of Boggers that step up and I appreciate that. However some that scream loudest about Obama and their own sensitivities are nowhere to be found when a GLTB issue comes up.

139. Well, I have been banned from LGBT group due to a little skirmish awhile back

my 2-3 requests for reinstatement have been ignored/denied, so I can't opine as much as I would like to. I am glad some of the BOG is stepping up, but there seems to be a noticeable overlap. If i have misconstrued this, mea culpa.

221. God almighty Devon.

You would boot me out of your group so fast it would make my head spin. But people here get so messed up thinking things have to be mutually exclusive. If people want and need a group where they can admire the Prez without any dissention so effing what? It's not my style because I am a contrarian and a curmudgeon.

142. Are you trying to make up new acronyms on your own? You have to go through the committee dude-

Boger is the name given to what was believed to be the first golgothan shit demon. Currently, the term boger is used to define all that is wretched and nauseating. In order for one to become a boger, proper hygiene must be completely ignored to the extent that having to tolerate the smell of oneself causes a permanent look of euphoria. Intelligence is a huge factor in defining what is a boger as well. For the boger is, along with the gideon, one of the least cerebral beings known to man. With that being said, it can easily be understood that the word boger is one of the worst insults that can be given in today's culture.
"Goddammit, you freakin' boger, take a damned bath! And brush your teeth, too. Better yet, just shoot yourself!"

18. I've alerted two posts.

And they were both upheld. It's like Transphobia is a perfectly acceptable prejudice on here. Nothing is being done about it!

Let me speak to all the hateful, transphobic, "democrats" and "progressives" on here. Your words have the power to hurt. You may be anonymous on the internet but you will have to live with your own conscience!

There are many in the LGBT community who are afraid to be themselves because your hateful and bigoted rhetoric makes them feel not welcome.

You may not think you're being mean or hateful but every year many LGBT kids kill themselves because society is so cruel to them.

36. there is something funny going on with

the jurys imho
I see stuff that should easily be hidden go 3-3 constantly
I have no proof but my gut tells me something funny is going on when I see someone vote hide or leave and the comment they make is in direct conflict with the vote shown
add in the hunting and goading in replies trying to get someone to say something to alert on and the fact that hidden threads reflect on your jury duty
you can come up with a bunch of quiet socks who never do or say anything and by paying for their stars they remain at 100% jury call
at all times
just musing possibilities though I have as I said nothing but my gut feelings and a days research on how juries are worked here

111. many of those

who are suddenly very active signed up years ago and have low post counts
I would say yes some activity is required but really nothing more than "K&R" as a reply counts as a post
I bet I can get 20 "k&r"s posted in 5 minutes

176. You have to be logged in to be selected for jury. For your theory to work ...

You have to be logged in to be selected for jury. For your theory to work, a person would have to have a separate computer active with each identity logged in and be going around them all round robin refreshing their activity so that they don't appear inactive to the server.

That's more work and expense than it is worth it to a troll. Conceivably there could be one or two like that, but not the numbers your positing.

230. good points

plus it would require either access to a server to break up the isp id I am pretty sure du runs
or several different connections all live at once and running several different computers
like I said all I have is nothing but the jury oddities I see (and those are usually posted in a thread they refer to) and I am sure for everything I see there are several hundred that I do not see because no one posts them
so in reality a very small sample
but there is something weird with the results I do see and this is most likely why I see them
as I see them when someone goes "wtf?" and posts them publicly
I usually don't even log in when I come in du I have found if I wait until I read something I want to respond to the log in process usually makes me go "nah" and just read
saves time and trouble

185. Careful!!

146. This may just be the free-flowing nature of DU

I haven't been on a jury on this topic, but I probably vote to leave on 90% or more of my jury services. Even when the comments are pretty harsh or in opposition to my own views. Unless the poster is an obvious freeper, I usually let them stand and take their lumps.

19. met my first transgender person a couple months back

my hat is off to her-from what i understand she has had a rough go of it.

i would like to think that perhaps du is just more ignorant than prejudiced.
years ago an openly gay person was a novelty to me
i met more, i learned
would hope du would be the same
i fear we are a work in progress and not a finished product

153. I worked with a transgender gal

and only ONE woman was upset about her usage of the bathroom while in transition - she called HR daily to complain about it until I put a stop to it - I told her I was calling HR about her lies about this person and I followed through - to their credit, HR had already pegged her as a transphobe

20. I wish there were a better suffix than "phobic"

picked up from homophobic, where I don't like it either. It means "fear of." The implication is that the dislike of or bias against a group of people is based on fear. And maybe that is a factor. But not every prejudice/bias is based on fear, and not every fear leads to bigoted behavior.

I have the same issue with "misogyny," which means hatred or dislike of women, which is not always at the root of people's gender-related prejudices or even objectification.

Of course, better than coming up with a better word for what people are referring to as these things, it would be better if they didn't exist.

115. Yup. Transphobia ISN'T a phobia.

I've stopped being shocked when I see it. I got to see it firsthand when a friend came out and highly educated people we've both known for many, many years had the gall to argue whether she was really a she in front of her. Nice, huh?

163. Phobic can also be a suffix for something that is repelled

For instance, hydrophobic materials repell or fail to mix with water. In the case of transphobic or homophobic, people are repelled by the actions these people take in their personal lives (something I've never understood). I don't believe they actually fear the homo/trans actions or that they will become like them, they just can't comprehend that nature could have made people less "perfect" than them.

26. I know this will sound cliche, but I have two dear friends who are transgendered.

The first was my boss and mentor and went through this about 25 years ago when it was somewhat rare. It was a shock to her reports, but we all supported her 1000%. We went through the process with her and could only admire her courage. Today she is happily living as a female and is in a committed relationship.

The second is undergoing reassignment surgery as we speak.

As difficult as it may be for other people to understand such a major decision, what they need more than anything is continued love and support and acceptance.

I'd like to think that any hurtful sentiments are being sent out of ignorance, not malice.

102. I agree with you.

I met my BFF when she was finalizing her divorce & starting transition, 12 years ago. We moved into the same apartment building around the same time and would cross paths walking our dogs, so just struck up a chat & started walking together. Practically the first thing she said to me was "I'm transgendered". Apparently people had given her funny looks or made comments because she had her nails done & wore women's jewelry even though for her job, she was still "Todd". My response was "Oh ok. That wasn't my first question, but, cool." She has said on several occassions since then that when I said that, she knew we were going to be friends for a long, long time.

We sorta became each other's "big sister" in a way, because she walked & had posture like a DUDE so I'd jokingly tease her about "put your shoulders back and show off those boobies you're paying so much money for!" We go thrift shopping and makeup shopping (the things she taught ME about makeup!!), she taught me how to cook, we attend each others' kids' tennis matches, soccer games and birthday parties, and we sit for each other's dogs when one or the other is out of town. Now I can barely remember Todd - who I met all those years ago.

34. May we all become educated and compassionate toward all fellow human beings. n/t

122. Unlikely, but we can hope.

My education has taught me that there is an awful mean streak in far too many human beings. It seemed that we were moving toward a more compassionate, open society, but the backlash is overwhelming. The publicity branch of the GOP, Fox Noise, has convinced millions that it's cool to be a hateful, selfish, bigot.

35. When Manning released their pictures an OP was made.

That OP resulted in me getting 4 hides in one day. A record, to be sure. The OP was just so "concerned" about said image would "damage" or "shame" Manning. When in Manning's logs with Lamo they said explicitly that images of them as a boy would be more hurtful.

There is an obvious connection between posters in that other thread and this thread.

200. Chance of serving on a Jury: 0% ...looks like that poster has some issues. n/t

143. I'm not sure that Catherina is homophobic or against transgenders from that OP.

It looks to me as though she was outraged by the army leaking the Chelsea photo as a presumed attempt to turn "real men" against her; that outraged me as well, then it turned out to have been part of the court documentation. All she did wrong AFAICS was to get the transgender pronouns wrong, and that's something we'll all have to learn to get right in order to honor them as fellow humans deserving the same rights and considerations.

Are you both on the same side and are unaware of it? Seriously, just attempting to understand.

144. josh, that is simply not fair. Concern for the ramifications of that photo's release from segments

of our society who would place their bigotry above all else, seems clearly realized. Those expressing concern for that photo's release very likely did not know it had been put into evidence by the defense (as was the case with me) and assumed it was an intentional attempt to incite homophobic/transphobic factions and to thus diminish Manning's message with respect to our Nation's refusal to address war crimes committed in "OUR" name.

I understand the emotions that accompany these discussions, but let's take a step back before jumping to hurtful (and very wrong) conclusions and accusations.

190. The Army is under a FOIA order, filed by the press and supporters of Manning, who wished

that all trial evidence and transcripts be released quickly. You can hardly fault the Army for obeying the order granted by the judge. The exhibit in question has been available since it was entered into evidence, here--- (DE QQQ)

192. Thanks for the info

193. I happen to think that Skinner, EarlG, and Elad are fucking geniuses. And I don't say that lightly.

I think after many, many years of watching the bullshit that goes down on DU, they have made the perfect DU-surfing tool--the 'ignore list.'

If you are truly being bothered by one or two (or five) posters, it is a godsend that keeps YOUR sanity while they burn themselves out.

But if you cannot navigate DU without putting scores of posters on ignore, AND you like posting multiple threads that are, shall we say, "factually compromised" then the ignore list becomes it's own disciplinary tool. It bites you on the ass as your thread becomes filled with posts that challenge your facts but don't penetrate your bubble...because you have made your own choices.

203. That seems to be a blatant misrepresentation of the situation, to put it mildly.

260. I got the impression it wasn't transphobia, but poor fact checking...

The person posted it because they thought the army had released the photo and didn't realise it was released because of an FOI request by the defence. They didn't help matters by refusing to edit the OP itself, but I didn't see anything there I'd think was transphobic.

Having said that, I have little sympathy for that person's supposed stress levels over being accused of transphobia when they themselves are no stranger to accusing other DUers of not particularly pleasant things. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and all those other clichés that apply...

39. K&R from a gay man. nt

40. I must be truly gifted. I haven't seen a single hurtful post here.

I do have one small problem though. How to directly refer to Ex-Pfc Manning. I feel that people who throw themselves on grenades to save others are heroes and deserve respect. Any reference to rank held now or in the past seems tainted, I don't want her honor sullied by associating it with the corroded honor of the Army. I don't know her and am uncomfortable with calling her by her first name.

42. I do not believe most members of DU are transphobic.

Based on the recent threads relating to Manning's desire for treatment while incarcerated, a few posters were certainly less than sympathetic. The unusual comments by these individuals sadly overshadowed the vast majority of posters who are in no way prejudiced, and entirely sympathetic to the trials and tribulations of the transgendered.

84. No not most, but plenty are prejudiced against transgendered people and gay people it is

a DU constant, and it comes from the same regular cohort. You are not trans or gay clearly so your opinion is your opinion, like that of a white man who says there is no more racism in America. Just so you know.

52. It has been very disillusioning

53. There is a long history of transphobia and homophobia here.

When it comes to those two topics, it is very hard to tell the difference between DU and sites like FR and even worse right wing sites.

It is beyond hurtful. It is the height of stupidity. There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Posters with an ignorant state of mind are not aware of how offensive something is. Posters with a willfully stupid state of mind are aware of how offensive something is, but refuse to learn when people are right there trying to educate them. They are not only offensive, stupid and rude, but some go as far as to alert stalk the LGBT Group with silly alerts if any of us in the LGBT community dare tries to vent about the amount of outright hatred toward us on DU. In the past, there were homophobic and transphobic posters on DU who came to the old DU2 Forum and actively taunted us and posted outright lies as fact. We had to put up with it until those posters were tombstoned for other reasons for posting horrid nonsense in another part of DU on other topics.

DU3 seems to be a free for all with just about anything allowed. We do, as a community, have a little control of the LGBT Group nowadays with hosts able to block members, but there isn't a thing in the world we can do about the alert stalkers who try to shut us up through the jury system if we dare complain. It effectively shuts our conversations about the transphobia and homophobia on DU down...or makes us have to start new threads on those topics.

So, watch out. Your post here might get shut down as "meta" by the pro homophobia/transphobia contingent here on DU. I'm glad you said something/spoke up about the transphobia on DU though. It needed to be said.

54. I'm so sorry Warren, that you've had to endure

It has been maddening today and I am so saddened by some of the OPs and responses I've read.

I alerted on a couple of posts early in the day. I noted in one that what was written was "...hurtful to the transgender community and their loved ones," and that "we're a open-minded forum that emphasizes tolerance and acceptance and ignorant post like this serve to do the opposite."

The jury elected to 'Leave it Alone.'

More than that, however, here are a couple of the responses I received from jury members:

"...first I voted to hide, then I did not like the intolerant tone of the alert."

"Alerter needs to grow up. Poster admitted they are having a hard time. They didn't say shit about about being hateful or intolerant. Alerter is a fucking asshole for wasting peoples time."

92. Alert abuse on your jury results notice.

The admins can see who made the comments. Those individual comments wouldn't get them PPRd, but people who are repeatedly occasionally are shown the door. But when they use the jury system to hide it, the admins don't see it unless we bring it to their attention.

59. a lot of people have had little exposure to transgender people.

At one time not very long ago most Americans - as far as they knew - didn't think they knew one single gay person. When that changed - a lot of the prejudice started to evaporate. Frankly, until last year - I didn't on a personal level know one single openly transgender person. - Now a doctor I worked with is a transgender person and is a highly respected surgeon. Peoples' prejudices tend to at least start evaporating when they know people in real life.

62. My child's godfather is TG. 35 years of hell until the surgery was completed. But it still wasn't

when he married and adopted a child and his wife neglected and abused his daughter, the little girl had PTSD by all of that and the mother had her in custody for weekend visitation only.

But she continued to be irresponsible and cruel and the child cried about being forced to spend the weekend with them. The mother's parents were wild-eyed fundie while he and his mother are Jewish. They told the little girl her daddy was going to hell, etc.

As they tried to reduce visitation due to the fear and trauma and the doctor came to court, the ex found a bigoted public lawyer to try to take away his rights.

It was based on nothing about his parenting; he was exemplary. It was all about what he was, but who he'd been and that he was TG. Oh, and that he was Jewish. They were relentless, didn't even have to pay. The papers they filed in court to argue custody were idiotic. It was a nightmare, not knowing what outrageous charges were going to be argued next, and going to another hearing to defend against.

It was all about bigotry, not the best interest of the child. This drug out for years to torment all of us. Every weekend it was, 'What did they do now?'

He and the family had to pay tens of thousands of dollars and hire private detectives to show what the birth mother was doing. And this woman was a mess, I won't go into the shocking details. But the judge did see through it and finally there was enough to made the visits only in public places like the zoo with several of us so they couldn't freak her out. She didn't want to see them, but as the biological family it was their chance to wage emotional abuse and it took its toll on us.

My heart hurts now just thinking about what he went through. He didn't ask to be born the way he was and nothing but surgery and hormones finally made him feel comfortable in his own skin. If someone has not experienced that, they should just respect that others are different. And it's none of their business.

So the hell didn't end. But we've supported him, his mother and I, my kid adores him (always felt he was a man) and after going through another nearly twenty years his life is now settled.

His daughter is happy and did excellent in school, brought up in the reformed synagogue and he has found happiness. He is a parent many kids would dream of having. She has grown up to be fine young lady and the pride of the family despite the dysfunctional maternal side of the family.

The pain of the physical changes, the financial hardship (over $100K) and social stigma were the things of nightmares. My kid is also different and been discriminated against.

There are sick, selfish, sadistic, self-righteous and petty people in this world that do great harm. Yet claim that they are 'normal' and others have 'something wrong with them.'

I told some of them when they started going off about me and mine, that if being cruel and hateful was normal, I'd take my 'not quite right' family any day.

It's about the heart. As I'm getting older, I have no patience for hatred, people taking advantage and hurting others for their own gain. I am quite intolerant on that, having seen there is no value in learning from them. Life is short, many have gone through or are going through incredible pain, and no one has the right to judge.

255. Thanks, I'm having to go back and edit because it still makes me so upset I can't say it right.

I can't believe people are so ignorant. I miss the seventies, really.

We were taught about TG in college and there was nothing 'abnormal' in it for us. This is part of the Reagan era dumbing down of America.

It was later when we had to deal with all of this in public. Like abortions, no longer being between the doctors and families who were dealing with private matters, being judged by yahoos and fanatics now.

64. We have a crowd with all the decency and warmth of a Vogan payday loan company.

66. l think a lot of people need more exposure

and explanation.

Immediately shaming people who don't understand as "transphobic" is probably not the best approach.

We have a very dear friend who is transitioning F-to-M. We frequently slip up with our pronouns. It doesn't mean we're transphobic - we just knew him as "her" for years, and habits are hard to break. He's extremely patient with us, and while we feel terrible when we mess up, he understands.

I think this is an opportunity to teach, not preach. Honest mistakes should be forgiven. Manning is not a personal friend of (m)any people here, and if they say "Bradley" it's not necessarily an insult.

96. There is a difference between slipping in conversation -

where there is give and take and no inherent chance to easily stop the tongue before the gender you've used for years slips out. A friend of mine tolerated her friends slipping with pronouns for as long as they had known her as a male. Most didn't need that long - but it is an acknowledgement that it is sometimes hard to instantly switch.

But when you are posting on the internet (especially with forever-editing, and especially as a response to a letter which expressly requested that she be referred to using female pronouns), there is no excuse to get gender wrong. I'll be more tolerant with slips like using transgender as a noun, or adding "ed" to the end. Those kinds of slips are part of getting used to a new concept -and might even require some research if you don't happen to stumble across a recent explanation of preferences.

112. I think that is right

I don't know much about transgender and haven't been around anyone who I could learn about it first hand. Probably part of the reason is I've been outside the US for the better part of 10 years and those things are not as common where I live. For me it's kind of like being isolated to a certain degree (other than DU and Facebook).

I had a gay uncle who died many years ago and I always wished I'd gotten to know him better (I think I saw him twice when I was a kid). He was a nice guy who died well before he should have.

People have a tendency to jump to conclusions before they know your situation.

191. My BNL, who I refer to above, was a person who made sure we referred to him as a 'he' long before

He did not fit into the categories people tried to box him into, he rebelled against it. We were regulars at a club that specifically catered to lesbians but all were welcome as most places were at that time. I chose to live in an area that was mostly gay as I felt much more comfortable and at ease there. My BNL had a relationship with a woman for some years then, and people assumed that he was lesbian and nothing more was said.

He was distinctly 'male' in all life endeavors, and in the social arena, was almost of the kind of guy I would not have liked to hang around with. Fierce as a bear, angry, had very definite ideas about how women 'should' act, stuff like that. He was into motor bikes, leather, pick up trucks, country music and had tattoos of naked ladies gracing his arms, the whole bit.

He was defiant about his strong interest in women and wouldn't let anyone tell him he was anything other than what he then defined himself to be His mom and I thought he felt he needed to prove something in a society where everyone seems to be forced to be hyper male or hyper female.

Or maybe it was just who he was, but a few years after the SAS and settling down, he had the tattoos removed, as if he had nothing to prove then. And most of his hyper male persona vanished. His life with women may have made him more sensitive in his role as a father of his daughter, as he was able to relate to her so well. He'd seen life from both sides and I felt she was lucky.

So the SAS (or SRAS) and finally getting to be a father let him be freer to express all of his traits, being at peace. He is a respected person in his work and the synagogue where they never had any issue with him. So that's why I think that.

The roles that people are pigeonholed into is a problem for straights as well as gays. I see human sexuality as spectrum and not able to be defined as it has been. I feel that trying to put someone in a box is coercion, and not done for their good, but to use them.

But I will say that he was a boy or man all along. He hated wearing dresses and all of that, but so did I. He felt like a freak in a dress and so did I. But I'm just a straight female, who doesn't go into all that social female stuff, it feels unnatual to me. But I am definitely hetero. I'm 'weird,' but it's just me.

It's much easier for a woman to dress as a man if we're talking jeans and stuff, than the other way around, more social acceptance. And not everyone who wears the clothes fitting another gender model can be said to be LGBT or straight. Roman men wore togas, some Muslim men wear robes and some Scots wear kilts. Meh.

My son loves to wear pink and purple and loves romantic and girlie things, always has and has been called names for that. But that ended up being the least of his problems, really.

At least that barrier has been broken, and no one gives me any flak for my choice of clothing, either, but as ridiculous as it sounds to us now, it used to be a social problem. I do remember the flap about men wearing pink or doing housework. My first husband was a quarterback who took ballet in college, very tall, hairy chest and big muscles, for flexibility. And he was good at sewing and cooking. Some people need to grow up and get their noses out of other people's business.

Okay, back to my BNL. One afternoon as he was taking my son for a ride in the truck to the circus and then came back and they were playing in the yard, his mom and I were watching them and I said to her, 'Please don't take this the wrong way, but your daughter is a man.'

I said that because my son reacted to men and women quite differently. Whenever he saw my BNL, his eyes lit up, as his father (my second husband) was AWOL. For him, my BNL was 'the man,' the father he wanted to have and he loved him. There was no doubt in his mind what gender his 'uncle' was. This was before the mastectomy and certainly my son didn't know what was or was not in his underwear. He just 'knew.'

He and my son saw each for years and my son experienced bigotry for that in addition to all the other things that life was going to slap him in the face with, because some people are pigs.

She replied when I made that statement, 'We have been talking about the same thing. That 'X' is really coming from a different place, and we're looking into changing that for 'X.' (I won't write his name here, which he also changed legally.)

We all went through this process at different levels for the next few years. The doctors explaining how it was that he was born a man, but not with all the 'plumbing' as some might say. Went into explanations of the pre-natal development of the brain, all of that. The psychiatrist counseled him for a year, as this had to be well documented to get the SA process going.

From then it was a series of taking hormones, but not having to experiment with clothing as he never wore anything but 'male' clothing, anyway. He'd been going to the men's bathroom for years and standing up in a stall to 'take a leak.' This is the solution to the TG bath room issue, too, I think.

But then came the harder things, the mastectomy and hysterectomy. Not all people go through that. Then the creation of a phallus out of his body tissue. He had serious health problems through all of it. He was very ill for a while. Anyone who thinks SAS is like going shopping, needs to have their head examined.

Through it all he never complained, it was all just matter of course to him, and us. He never looked back or doubted his decision.

The state recognized the change, and all of his official documents were changed from female to male and in the eyes of the law, but not ignorant busy bodies. He was what he was.

When he had troubles to go through (mentioned in my post above) he also did not complain about bigotry, but instead he focused on the matter at hand, not hurt feelings. He was used to being miscategorized and didn't give a damn about what others thought about his sexual identity.

The safety of his little girl was all that mattered and his chance to be a father and live his life as he was. Still, it was an awful time for all of us, but he just kept plowing through the whole thing, never questioning himself as he'd gotten over that as a 'little girl.'

I think some people are mixing the issues of what they have learned about Manning's more private details with the politics. They can't help it. Just as there are some who see attacks on PBO as racist.

Some remarks on either, while not consciously bigoted still come from a place of finding something deeply wrong with both, with misjudging, that is not justified. But I empathize with the pain of those like Manning.

When one looks at the actions of the person and what they are working to do with their lives, which transcend the bodies that we live in and so many have prejudices about it, it is unavoidable.

I'm still seeing articles terming Manning as a homosexual. What does it matter, in terms of what a person does, we might ask. And we are talking about media that is going to overdo everything to make a buck.

Many people like me don't take anything that reminds them of family and friends being put down without a fight.

I don't feel that is what the Democratic Party is about, either. We are not the party of denying minorities, gays and women their rights as human beings. JMHO.

It probably should have been SRAS but we referred to it as SAS. For him, it was repairing what nature had not made for him.

The fundie ex's family not only got him in court for being TG, but Jewish, and then told his daughter that he was not really her father as he was not a man and he had to answer that for her.

He explained to her at that young age that he had a very small penis (in the womb some tissue ends up as a clitoris or a penis, IIRC) so he was dissembling in a way, but how do you tell a 4 year old?

But these are just some of the stumbling blocks and the invasion of privacy that TGs face in society.

It should have never been brought up. Who, other than women who now have to submit to transvaginal ultrasounds, have so many people getting into their private parts? And for good measure, by the same people that scream about the 4th and privacy rights?

69. Everyone in this country has the right . . .

Some people will go to any lengths to protect the NSA's intelligence empire and our government's policies and practices generally. Others are simply narrow-minded. Despite those exceptions, however, I think it is safe to say that most people posting on Democratic Underground realize everyone in this country has the right to what Thomas Jefferson called, "The pursuit of happiness." Surely that must include choosing one's own sexual identity?

98. No - follow the links on the right corner of the post.

The response you just responded to was to the person who used male pronouns.

My post to you was regarding the use of the word "sex" rather than "gender" and the phrase "wants to be" rather than "is." Those are more subtle issues, but they are important to trans* individuals because the former is a misunderstanding that being a transgender individual has to do with gender (mind) rather than sex (body parts, or activity). The latter is more troubling, because it denies the reality of what she has just told you - that she is a woman, not that she wants to be one, and further implies that she must do something to achieve that status.

101. It isn't twisting words -

The way you speak about transgender individuals is important - and a refusing to acknowledge, or attempt to learn from, individuals who your comments hurt says a lot more about where your heart is at than inadvertently slipping out of a lack of familiarity with language preferences in the first place.

127. Oh, I think he might have been sick.

Unfortunately, the reported circumstances are such that we might suspect he had a problem with women, one that went untreated. His treatment in custody can't have helped, and seems to have involved torture.

I couldn't join a chorus calling for transition until I thought Manning was entirely sane and able to decide on such a course. I could understand someone in the same situation's wanting desperately to be someone else, but are we just going to celebrate his declaring himself a woman without caring for what might be best for the soldier?

110. My dear Warren, I wish I could absorb your pain away

but if it can be of some consolation, we ARE winning even if the progress is slow, way too slow.

I thought this was a settled manner at DU after the vicious wars we had about this last year and thought we won but it looks like we won important battles and not the whole war yet.

Just know they WILL NOT WIN.

Now I understand better how we became such natural allies Warren. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this all fucking over again here but our allies then are our allies NOW, and if anything we've grown in numbers.

171. In its general usage it also covers bigoted assholes. nt.

121. It's a learning curve that people will be going through.

I'm going through it myself.
I certainly don't want to hurt anyone but since I haven't had much direct contact with this issue before and I found that I've been insensitive without realizing it.
I would bet that once people understand what kind of things hurt you'll find that it is ignorance, not prejudice, and this will be corrected in time.

123. k&R n/t

125. Hope for the change I see in post on inmate rape

There was a time when, even here on DU, I would often see folks say, "well I hope they get raped in prison like they deserve".

Now I rarely see that because the rest of us on DU said over & over again, "NO ONE ever deserves to be raped... especially vulnerable inmates" because that's wrong, that's not who WE are. We, as a community say NO DESERVES RAPE."

Surely we'll see that change on DU. We did what we did when we didn't know better. When we knew better, we did better. Poorly paraphrasing Maya Angelou.

131. Well, untill...

their surgery and name change, it seems to me we are still talking about Bradley Manning. Post-op and post-court, then she will be Chelsea. For their sake ("their" now being an acceptable singular pronoun, my elementary school teacher be damned) I hope it isn't too long. I cannot imagine how horrible that must be to feel such a way about one's self (I can make a barely-educated guess, and then multiply that a couple dozen times to get closer). FI wish him a speedy, successful and comfortable transition.

That doesn't make one transphobic (I don't think... I'm not transgendered, so I don't know what is offensive or not... unlike knowing how every nickname used for minorities in my area MUST be incredibly offensive, judging by the characters using them). I think it's an interesting process and would like to learn more about it. Definitely not for me, but it's NOT "for me," so it doesn't matter what the hell I think as long as I treat people by how they act and what they say, rather than what they look like or whether their appearance conforms to their genetics.

You are certainly right, people screaming about using it as a cover, saying things like "Oh, well he is one messed up dude" and crap like that is hurtful. It sounds like most people in my (red) area talking about, well, anything but being a white cracker-ass "manly-man" who gets their kids killed by leaving loaded guns around the house.

136. I've learned more and more that DU is NOT what I used to think it was! DU can be

137. I understand, I've seen it too

I am sorry you've had to experience that here. You'd think DU could be a place to go for understanding and compassion. But I understand how hurtful it can be, I've seen hurtful comments by people here on other issues as well. I'm one of those some talk about who've been here for years but doesn't comment much. I used to love coming here to see the back and forth conversation on progressive issues, to feel not alone in my thinking or to get useful information about an issue I've been confused about myself. I feel like more and more, though, there are just hateful comments or just plain lack of compassion and understanding for difference here. Instead of conversation, insults. Instead of information, ignorance and lack of thoughtfulness. It's sad. I still log on every day to see information and find useful conversations, but have to pick and choose a lot more than I used to. I feel like the right-ward movement of politics in this country has affected us even here on DU, where expressions of prejudice and lack of understanding are just growing all the time. I wish we didn't have to combat that here on DU. I wish it were not true, but it is.

164. Who cares if it is fabricated! You must hate veterans who have fabricated limbs! You have no logic!

Why do you hate fabricated limbs?

Have you ever had surgery? Do you hope to live long enough to survive cancer by surgery or other fabricated means? Artificial heart valves? Stents? Knee replacement? False teeth?

If you have testicular cancer and have a ball removed, then goodness help you because you have declared here (by logical implication) that you will have severe psychological problems from being less of a man (by your logic), whether or not you replace the ball with a plastic one or nothing.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:17 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Of course it's ignorance. Of course it's transphobia. Of course it's painful to see that kind of ignorance and fear on DU. But it's better to hand this ignorant . . . . person his head on a platter with an explanation and a lesson than to just boot his sorry ass out of here. I just had to explain this very same issue to one of my dearest and best and longest friends on DU. You don't teach someone by locking them out of the classroom.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Clearly the poster is not informed on transsexual issues, but his display of ignorance here does not warrant censorship.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Transphobic to the max.

168. This country needs to grow up

and seriously rearrange their priorities. I am simply amazed at this wonderful young person who has so much to teach others through her bravery and dignity. I think she must be an inspiration to others who have not felt a part of this world and have had to hide their real selves.

This is an opportunity to learn, I have learned a lot myself, including how important it is to support each other because of all the truly thoughtless people there are in this world.

186. K&R.

187. I must admit, I'm ignorant when it comes to transgender.

In my ignorance sits my base attitude on the subject, to each his/her own, it is not my business. I generally believe however, that a male is someone who has a penis, and a female is someone who has a vagina. I leave room for those who identify as something other than what their genitalia says they are, but I admit, I don't understand it.

With all of that said, I believe people should be loving and caring toward each other rather than aggressive and abusive. So even if I don't understand someone else, I allow room for tolerance of their rights and perspectives without judgement from me.

205. It seems like

You leave room for people to exist out of penis=male, vagina=female. Thats all thats really matters.

Understanding it isn't necessary, honestly. Some trans*people take most of their lifetime, or counseling to understand it. Hell, some trans*folks say to hell with understanding it, I am what I am and it doesn't matter how it works.

I don't know how my spleen works, but I know it's important, and if someone tells me theirs doesn't function quite the same way and they need medical treatment to correct it I believe them!

217. That's the definition of a sociopath. n/t

198. Thank you for your heartfelt OP

I inadvertently mixed up my pronouns in a reply and find myself much in the same place as Skinner:

Speaking as someone who wants to do the right thing, I will admit that it is not easy to suddenly change gears and start referring to any person using a different name and different pronoun. This is not something that I have a lot of experience with. As I speak, I have to catch myself when I use the name "Bradley" and the pronoun "he" and make a deliberate effort to say "Chelsea" and "she." But it is the right thing to do.

As the brother in law of a person who had pronounced transgender identification from the age of 4 (50 years ago in a remote Thai village) and has suffered with it I can only imagine the unique struggles that your family has faced and I am sure that your child is most fortunate to have enlightened parents to help with them.

I have only a few minutes a day so I only read a few threads and haven't seen the expressions of prejudice that you refer to. It is unfortunate.

Regarding Chelsea Manning and her struggle I have from the beginning felt and her recent announcement makes me wonder if Assange did not take advantage of a person who was vulnerable because of her personal struggles. I believe that Chelsea's case was substantially undermined by the wholesale volume of downloaded files and if instead she had leaked a few dozen or few hundred items that focused on specific actions rather than everything that she had access to that she would be facing a much much different sentence.

Again I think that she has gotten, and probably is still receiving, very poor advice from people that are more interested in promoting a cause than her interests.

212. People fear what they don't understand

That fear turns to hate and bigotry, unfortunately. Luckily, I have traveled in many circles where I've had a number of transgendered acquaintances and quite a few friends. I'm always astounded, given the level of crap these people put up with, that anyone would think this was anything but a necessary thing that transgendered people do. Why would anyone choose to be transgendered? Because they've lived in the wrong body for as long as they were able, nothing more, nothing less.

220. Honestly, its not something I think about easily

In spite of having a pretty open mind, gay friends for many years, and a gay daughter myself I'm very happy with. Its still baby steps I suppose.

I'm almost 50, so grew up in a culture where intolerance was taken for granted. When in doubt about the value of my own "instincts" (or whatever you want to call them) on the subject, I do try to keep my mouth shut. And grow a bit more.